# Impact of covid19



## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

I wonder whether any others have also struggled with the impact of covid19?
Unfortunately, we lost my sister and my children lost an aunt last summer when everything was still new. Since then my wife has taken a very hard line and does not believe that covid19 is real. As far as she is concerned the doctors and nurses are faking it all. She gets lots of support on facebook and her instagram page and has become a leader for people who are also sceptical. 
I have not taken the vaccine but our children did and she has almost stopped all contact with them and only talks at them without listening when she did speak. 
Have many others had similar issues? What helped move things along?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

I'm sorry for your loss.
My mom has been dealing with the after effects since she got it last November.
I never treated it that serious myself, because I seem to be immune to all terrestrial diseases.

Covid is real, but the response to it was not.
We knew about back in March 2020 who was generally susceptible to covid, the old and infirmed and cormodity and obese. Not the young and not the fit.
95%+ of all those who died from covid were in one or more of the risk categories.

We knew back then than we didn't need an entire society shut down.
However, our political and business and other elites decided to use covid to straight out lie to us so they could re-engineer society to create an economic hegemony for themselves, while making the rest of us dependent up on them for provision.
Forcing everybody to take the vax is what is causing the rapid mutation into variants. By forcing everybody to take the vax, everybody becomes the experimental subject to the effects of the untested vaccine.
A better option would have been to go for the minimal strategy to minimize inconveniencing lives. Taking the vaccine is useless to me, but the monochlonal antibodies might have been a better option. 

There is plenty of information out there now that it seems to have been a plandemic and not a pandemic. Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci (does anybody know his first name?) are both on video claiming that it may be an engineered virus and was being released for a purpose.

I took the vaccine, but only because I need my job and not because I view myself as a risk to dying by covid.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Robert the Truce said:


> I wonder whether any others have also struggled with the impact of covid19?
> Unfortunately, we lost my sister and my children lost an aunt last summer when everything was still new. Since then my wife has taken a very hard line and does not believe that covid19 is real. As far as she is concerned the doctors and nurses are faking it all. She gets lots of support on facebook and her instagram page and has become a leader for people who are also sceptical.
> I have not taken the vaccine but our children did and she has almost stopped all contact with them and only talks at them without listening when she did speak.
> Have many others had similar issues? What helped move things along?


I'm sorry for your loss and sorry that you are having issues with your wife in the way she's handling COVID19.

My take on this is that by denying that COVID19 is real, it makes her feel safer.

Is she more isolated now due to the pandemic? Could it be that she's missing interaction with people so the people in the online groups are filling in a need she has for social contact?


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> I'm sorry for your loss and sorry that you are having issues with your wife in the way she's handling COVID19.
> 
> My take on this is that by denying that COVID19 is real, it makes her feel safer.
> 
> Is she more isolated now due to the pandemic? Could it be that she's missing interaction with people so the people in the online groups are filling in a need she has for social contact?


She is making connections far more now. We moved to NC, USA for my work in 2015 with our daughter. She had started a new job that stopped again with lockdown. She is very clever and has been very, very unlucky with her career. She has a degree in biochemistry and worked in a hospital laboratory for a couple of years but did not get any breaks. he then took a break for our children and since then, her jobs have not lasted more than a year. She should be in a leadership role now and instead has been shut out.
She is very active on social media as a scientist and is finally getting respect. The price has been that she is losing contact with our daughter and no longer has contact with our son. 
We have doctors and nurses in the family and she is clear that they are complicit.
I do not think it is about safety as she does think diseases are being released, but sees it as coming from the scientific establishment and healthcare workers. This has made us more isolated from friends and family back in England.
She knows the science better than me. I do not understand it at all.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Robert the Truce said:


> She is making connections far more now. We moved to NC, USA for my work in 2015 with our daughter. She had started a new job that stopped again with lockdown. She is very clever and has been very, very unlucky with her career. She has a degree in biochemistry and worked in a hospital laboratory for a couple of years but did not get any breaks. he then took a break for our children and since then, her jobs have not lasted more than a year. She should be in a leadership role now and instead has been shut out.
> She is very active on social media as a scientist and is finally getting respect. The price has been that she is losing contact with our daughter and no longer has contact with our son.
> We have doctors and nurses in the family and she is clear that they are complicit.
> I do not think it is about safety as she does think diseases are being released, but sees it as coming from the scientific establishment and healthcare workers. This has made us more isolated from friends and family back in England.
> She knows the science better than me. I do not understand it at all.


I have a few relatives who are acting similar. It's become an obsession for them. I just don't discuss it with them and try to get along as well as I can with the hope that this too shall pass.

Your situation is of course different since you live with your wife and needed to deal with this on a daily basis.

Can you put your focus more towards other things right now, maybe focus more on your children?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Robert the Truce said:


> She gets lots of support on facebook and her instagram page


Yeah, those things are absolute poison! I advise everyone to stay away from them


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

+


Robert the Truce said:


> I wonder whether any others have also struggled with the impact of covid19?
> Unfortunately, we lost my sister and my children lost an aunt last summer when everything was still new. Since then my wife has taken a very hard line and does not believe that covid19 is real. As far as she is concerned the doctors and nurses are faking it all. She gets lots of support on facebook and her instagram page and has become a leader for people who are also sceptical.
> I have not taken the vaccine but our children did and she has almost stopped all contact with them and only talks at them without listening when she did speak.
> Have many others had similar issues? What helped move things along?


The doctors and nurses are faking it because they enjoy working overtime, wearing PPE all the time, and not getting pay raises. My nurse ex wife enjoyed the asthma that she had after getting the nonexistent disease. She also enjoyed putting people in body bags every day during each new wave of this nonexistent disease. /sarcasm

I haven't had a problem within a relationship but my ex mother in law has had conflict with my ex and my children. There are times when my ex and my kids just refuse to talk to her. I would imagine that its hard to talk to or deal with someone that you live with when you can't agree on what reality is. Maybe get her a nice new tinfoil hat.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Robert the Truce said:


> I do not think it is about safety as she does think _diseases are being released_,


I'm not sure if this is a typo, or if I've misunderstood it, but if she thinks diseases are being deliberately developed and released then that sounds close to psychotic. Ditto cutting off contact with her children. It may explain why she has been "very, very unlucky" in her career.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Robert the Truce said:


> She is very clever and has been very, very unlucky with her career. She has a degree in biochemistry and worked in a hospital laboratory for a couple of years but did not get any breaks.


Can you think of any factors besides luck potentially holding back her biochemistry career?
Hint: She denies a disease that has been isolated and sequenced is real.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't think the doctors and nurses fake it, but I do think they are prone (as all humans are) to overvakuing their own experiences as they relate to broader statistics.

I have a close friend that I run with oce a week. She is in the medical field and I am in data/statistics and she admits she is guilty of this. Doctors and nurses see the ill so their sample is heavily biased.

Perhaps this is what your wife is referring to?

Her not speaking to her grown children for making their own medical decisions is way over the top though. This us an unfortunate side effect of so heavily politicizing it.....people end up in camps where they look down on the other side. At that point it's not even about science anymore...it's about defending one's tribe and looking down on everyone else.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

As for what you should do, continue being a Dad to your kids, and point out to her that the kids haven't hurt anyone and she is wrecking her relationship w/ them for no good reason. As for whether the disease is a hoax or not, point out that is immaterial to her relationship w/ her kids. If she tries to conscript you in her war, don't cooperate and/or tell her where to get off.

Demanding that the people in your life parrot your beliefs is immature and insecure.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Robert the Truce said:


> She is making connections far more now. We moved to NC, USA for my work in 2015 with our daughter. She had started a new job that stopped again with lockdown. She is very clever and has been very, very unlucky with her career. She has a degree in biochemistry and worked in a hospital laboratory for a couple of years but did not get any breaks. he then took a break for our children and since then, her jobs have not lasted more than a year. She should be in a leadership role now and instead has been shut out.
> She is very active on social media as a scientist and is finally getting respect. The price has been that she is losing contact with our daughter and no longer has contact with our son.
> We have doctors and nurses in the family and she is clear that they are complicit.
> I do not think it is about safety as she does think diseases are being released, but sees it as coming from the scientific establishment and healthcare workers. This has made us more isolated from friends and family back in England.
> She knows the science better than me. I do not understand it at all.


Because she is in a tangentially related field she feels she knows all. 

This is just another example of this thing dividing us.

If there was a scale of 1 to 100 where 1 was "covid is a total hoax" to 100 being "I'm triple masking", my wife is probably an 85 and I'm probably a 70. And just that difference has caused conflict.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

SpinyNorman said:


> As for what you should do, continue being a Dad to your kids, and point out to her that the kids haven't hurt anyone and she is wrecking her relationship w/ them for no good reason. As for whether the disease is a hoax or not, point out that is immaterial to her relationship w/ her kids. If she tries to conscript you in her war, don't cooperate and/or tell her where to get off.
> 
> Demanding that the people in your life parrot your beliefs is immature and insecure.


Right, I do not understand people that disown others because of something they choose to do that has nothing to do with them. Her kids getting vaccinated has ZERO to do with her - the lady is a whack job if she is shutting her kids out over this.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

A shame that she's essentially cut off her children for not agreeing with her, and making their own choices, wow.

I've got a few nutters on my social media and in my circle of friends who spout the conspiracy theories etc. I too just don't discuss it with them. It's not worth an argument imo - I'll never convince them otherwise, nor will they convince me so let's just agree to disagree and not discuss.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Anyone that chooses to let different opinions on Covid or vaccines come between their family is a deranged idiot. On either side of the issue.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> I'm not sure if this is a typo, or if I've misunderstood it, but if she thinks diseases are being deliberately developed and released then that sounds close to psychotic. Ditto cutting off contact with her children. It may explain why she has been "very, very unlucky" in her career.


Lots of people feel the same. There is a great deal of debate about it and she knows more than I do. My children were close to there aunt and get upset and my wife talks to her children and they will not believe her. It is very difficult.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Robert the Truce said:


> Lots of people feel the same. There is a great deal of debate about it and she knows more than I do. My children were close to there aunt and get upset and my wife talks to her children and they will not believe her. It is very difficult.


My impression is that you can feel the pain that she is in. It is easy for many on here to dismiss her, but she is clearly struggling and also creating her own problems.

I am not a psychologist, and I believe @Laurentium actually is. He has a greater understanding that what I will write and probably more than can be given in a few lines.

People are driven to extreme views when they are scared. She might have the views because she is paranoid, and that might be reasonable (if not rational) after years of struggle and fustration. She expected greatness, and seems to be attacked from all sides. If she is scared from terror, I think people can understand that.

We also see more commonly that people are scared of being unimportant and mediocre. On an occasion like this, most of us are very unimportant. If we are not working as scientists or healthcare workers, it is not really about us. And, we do not really understand the issues very well. That terror of falling into insignificance can be terrifying. It might be the social media has given her support and an outlet, which real life has denied her.

Perhaps, she woudl desperately like to help and feels she is being thwarted? Being scared of being unimportant can be that lack of power to help people?


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Sorry to hear you lost your sister to the virus. I am dating an ER doc and I have heard all kinds of stories. Sounds to me like your wife feels some sense of knowledge with her career field that might put her in higher knowledge but it appears to me that she is using her career knowledge in a way that is not factual. 

What I don't understand is why people, even when they proof ....in this case, your sister passing from the virus.....they do not take it seriously? If this is a scam among medical staff is certainly is remarkable that it is global. Does your wife believe that your sister didn't die from the virus, that it was something else instead and it was labeled as the virus? I have heard people saying this and saying that the person's immune system was compromised and it was that that took the life, it wasn't really the virus. If the virus did not exist it would not be a threat to people with health issues but you can be certain it was the virus that can be blamed. 

I do not get in a debate with anyone. I just nod my head and listen. I have my own thoughts and I don't feel I need to try and convince anyone in what I believe.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Mr The Other said:


> I am not a psychologist, and I believe @Laurentium actually is.


I'm a psychotherapist, not a psychologist. A small but legally important distinction. 

Yes, you may well be right in the rest of what you say. The other thing that scares some people is to think that _no-one is in charge. _They like to think that someone, somewhere has a plan. If there's a virus, someone planned and developed it. If there's inflation, or deflation, or bad weather, or a pandemic, or a famine, then someone must be sitting in their evil tower somewhere rubbing their hands like a Bond villain as their evil plan unfolds. It's too scary, to this kind of person, to think that most of the time stuff just happens.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> I'm a psychotherapist, not a psychologist. A small but legally important distinction.
> 
> Yes, you may well be right in the rest of what you say. The other thing that scares some people is to think that _no-one is in charge. _They like to think that someone, somewhere has a plan. If there's a virus, someone planned and developed it. If there's inflation, or deflation, or bad weather, or a pandemic, or a famine, then someone must be sitting in their evil tower somewhere rubbing their hands like a Bond villain as their evil plan unfolds. It's too scary, to this kind of person, to think that most of the time stuff just happens.


An important distinction indeed. Thanks for the update.
The fear of being lost in the chaos and everyone just winging it does make sense.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

Thank you for the replies. 
I wasted you time I am afraid. we have separated.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

The politics forum on this forum has a thread which pretty much bans people from not being anti-vaxxer, certainly having double standards. it is how this get dangerous


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Robert the Truce said:


> The politics forum on this forum has a thread which pretty much bans people from not being anti-vaxxer, certainly having double standards. it is how this get dangerous


No. That's just not true.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> No. That's just not true.


I do not see it on this thread or this part of the forum


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Robert the Truce said:


> The politics forum on this forum has a thread which pretty much bans people from not being anti-vaxxer, certainly having double standards. it is how this get dangerous


Like the double negative in your description?

Just pulling your chain🤣🤣


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Robert the Truce said:


> The politics forum on this forum has a thread which pretty much bans people from not being anti-vaxxer, certainly having double standards. it is how this get dangerous


Well, I'm going to miss Tasorundo. It looks like he threw in the towel in trying to provide some perspective to the rabids in the politics forum. Our loss.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> The politics forum on this forum has a thread which pretty much bans people from not being anti-vaxxer, certainly having double standards. it is how this get dangerous


Wrong, its when the personal attacks/name calling come out. Many have tried to veil their insults, and when it doesn't get the desired response they go straight for the ad hominem, and I've seen it happen from both sides of the aisle.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Blondilocks said:


> Well, I'm going to miss Tasorundo. It looks like he threw in the towel in trying to provide some perspective to the rabids in the politics forum. Our loss.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Well, I'm going to miss Tasorundo. It looks like he threw in the towel in trying to provide some perspective to the rabids in the politics forum. Our loss.


Is it a perma ban?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Is it a perma ban?


Yes, requested by him.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Is it a perma ban?


Yes, he requested it. 
I'm sorry he did that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Yes, requested by him.


yes, just seen in the Banned thread... shame.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Yes, requested by him.


Oh no! 
I'm gonna miss him.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Is it a perma ban?


He was getting abuse and the when reported was told to ignore it. in the end he gave up
what happens is it ends up with a hot house separated from reality and having to consider other opinions


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Can't say I blame him. The politics forum has become a place where treating your "opponent" with even a modicum of respect is no longer considered necessary or even preferred.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think the doctors and nurses fake it, but I do think they are prone (as all humans are) to overvakuing their own experiences as they relate to broader statistics.
> 
> I have a close friend that I run with oce a week. She is in the medical field and I am in data/statistics and she admits she is guilty of this. Doctors and nurses see the ill so their sample is heavily biased.
> 
> ...


Their sample is biased but they still know what "normal" is and when different providers in different areas have the same stories about running out of beds, there is something too that. As someone said, the disease is real, the response to it was a total shizz show. 

My question is if a virus like covid can burden our hospitals, what happens when a real killer hits? I think it's done a good job pointing out the bottlenecks and shortcomings of our current system but who wants to talk about that.........


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Can't say I blame him. The politics forum has become a place where treating your "opponent" with even a modicum of respect is no longer considered necessary or even preferred.


True, but he was also guilty of this.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> He was getting abuse and the when reported was told to ignore it. in the end he gave up
> what happens is it ends up with a hot house separated from reality and having to consider other opinions


He gave it as good as he got it. He followed me around to the point I put him on ignore.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

drencrom said:


> True, but he was also guilty of this.


I'm not deliberately offensive to liberals, but matter of fact.
Is it my fault that I can go straight to the heart of the matter in a factual way?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> I'm a psychotherapist, not a psychologist. A small but legally important distinction.
> 
> Yes, you may well be right in the rest of what you say. The other thing that scares some people is to think that _no-one is in charge. _They like to think that someone, somewhere has a plan. If there's a virus, someone planned and developed it. If there's inflation, or deflation, or bad weather, or a pandemic, or a famine, then *someone must be sitting in their evil tower somewhere rubbing their hands like a Bond villain as their evil plan unfolds*. It's too scary, to this kind of person, to think that most of the time stuff just happens.


Note: I am the most rational of people.

Huh, what?

I tend to ignore many conspiracy theories but this one one is obvious, as is the nose on _Captain Hook_.

...............................................................................

There are political villains in the United States that have been taking full advantage of this horrendous virus.

We have had certain political figures in the States stating "No tragedy should go to waste".

In the States, a popular college degree to get is _Political Science,_ then from there many get a law degree and then move into politics.

These turkeys study ways to manipulate society and individuals. They have made it an Art and a bastard Science.
I cannot think of anything so harmful to any society.

Here is one former Democrat White House advisors take on what I wrote.









A quote by Rahm Emanuel


You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before.



www.goodreads.com


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> He was getting abuse and the when reported was told to ignore it. in the end he gave up
> what happens is it ends up with a hot house separated from reality and having to consider other opinions


Likely because he was wanting disagreements banned, perceived it as abuse. I guarantee, if there had been name calling and personal attacks, the mods would have acted on his report.

But he doesn't get to use the mods as his attack dogs for people simply disagreeing with him.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> Their sample is biased but they still know what "normal" is and when different providers in different areas have the same stories about running out of beds, there is something too that. As someone said, the disease is real, the response to it was a total shizz show.
> 
> My question is if a virus like covid can burden our hospitals, what happens when a real killer hits? I think it's done a good job pointing out the bottlenecks and shortcomings of our current system but who wants to talk about that.........


This a very real concern for my state in particular, which has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita in the entire nation. Hospital over-utilization was causing all sorts of headaches for people trying to get routine surgeries and other medical procedures during the worst of it.

You don't want to staff your hospitals 24/7 for the absolute worst case loading, that would be prohibitively expensive. So what is the best course of action? Keeping people from ever having to go there in the first place, for those things that are reasonably preventable.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> I'm a psychotherapist, not a psychologist. A small but legally important distinction.
> 
> Yes, you may well be right in the rest of what you say. The other thing that scares some people is to think that _no-one is in charge. _They like to think that someone, somewhere has a plan. If there's a virus, someone planned and developed it. If there's inflation, or deflation, or bad weather, or a pandemic, or a famine, then someone must be sitting in their evil tower somewhere rubbing their hands like a Bond villain as their evil plan unfolds. It's too scary, to this kind of person, to think that most of the time stuff just happens.


You may have difficulty with the idea that it can be done, but every mass socialist movement in the 20th century was exactly that. A core group of people taking over a country through its institutions, education and military and financial. You can't do that unless you have a coordinated effort by thousands of people. It is happening in America right now, as we speak.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Cletus said:


> This a very real concern for my state in particular, which has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita in the entire nation. Hospital over-utilization was causing all sorts of headaches for people trying to get routine surgeries and other medical procedures during the worst of it.
> 
> You don't want to staff your hospitals 24/7 for the absolute worst case loading, that would be prohibitively expensive. So what is the best course of action? Keeping people from ever having to go there in the first place, for those things that are reasonably preventable.


Also even before covid you'd always hear about a shortage of nurses and other staff. It's not like a warehouse or restaurant where you can just hire a bunch of bodies and train them in a few days.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I have softened my stance on the vaccines.

Ding, ding, ding, mark it on the calendar.

Yes, as soon as the shots were available, I took the two Pfizer's and booster.

..........................................................

Here's the buts...

They lied when they said that, once vaccinated, you are safe from worry.....to, once you get the series, you can still get it and spread it, but, you are less likely to die from Covid 9 Zeen.

I still believe this. 

That is a huge departure from what was said.

I do not trust any government on Earth, with respect to the virus.

Masks were said at the beginning of this pandemic (by Dr. Fauci) to be, not effective. 

Later, under pressure, he said we must mask up, then it would be better to double mask. 

All this is on recordings of this flip-flopping, lying buffoon. 
Fauci is the highest paid Federal Official, mind you.

Billions are being made by Big Pharma. They have been anything, but open and honest.

99.5 % of young children are not at risk.
Yet, we mask them up for 7 to 9 hours a day. 

The same dirty mask worn all day.
This is child abuse.

What irks me the most, is the lack of openness on any studies. 
Especially, in the US.

Science has taken a back seat to panic and politics.

What about those who now have natural immunity by contracting the illness?

The authorities refuse to discuss this?

Why? 



_[?]-_


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> You may have difficulty with the idea that it can be done, but every mass socialist movement in the 20th century was exactly that. A core group of people taking over a country through its institutions, education and military and financial. You can't do that unless you have a coordinated effort by thousands of people. It is happening in America right now, as we speak.


What is this to do with anything?


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

Cletus said:


> This a very real concern for my state in particular, which has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita in the entire nation. Hospital over-utilization was causing all sorts of headaches for people trying to get routine surgeries and other medical procedures during the worst of it.
> 
> You don't want to staff your hospitals 24/7 for the absolute worst case loading, that would be prohibitively expensive. So what is the best course of action? Keeping people from ever having to go there in the first place, for those things that are reasonably preventable.


Thank you. my concern really is that there are safe spaces being created where people are protected from facing up to reality and it is not good for them. we see it even on here in the politics forum and that the people there deny it even happening shows how they have sheltered themselves
It is a big danger on social media. but this is not what this main forum is about. perhaps i am wondering if there was anything i could have done to stop her disappearing like the social media parallel universe and if others can be helped when they prefer to live in a safe bubble and deny they are doing it?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> What is this to do with anything?


That covid reaction is a mass coordinated effort.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I'm not deliberately offensive to liberals, but matter of fact.
> Is it my fault that I can go straight to the heart of the matter in a factual way?


is it hard being smarter than everyone else?
i have seen that thinking and i cannot stand it any longer


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> That covid reaction is a mass coordinated effort.


Mass formation psychosis


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> is it hard being smarter than everyone else?
> i have seen that thinking and i cannot stand it any longer


I don't claim to be smarter. My position is solely based on using government to control other people's lives for personal benefit is an evil thing.

I'm being more moral, not more intelligent.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I don't claim to be smarter. My position is solely based on using government to control other people's lives for personal benefit is an evil thing.
> 
> I'm being more moral, not more intelligent.


this is a dangerous way to think. the most evil regimes in history all thought the same way


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> I don't claim to be smarter. My position is solely based on using government to control other people's lives for personal benefit is an evil thing.
> 
> I'm being more moral, not more intelligent.


The word I think you are looking for is "arrogant".


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> this is a dangerous way to think. the most evil regimes in history all thought the same way


Letting you live your life freely for personal satisfaction, while living my life to my personal satisfaction is not something that evil regimes do.

Those evil regimes use government to tell other people how to live their lives for the personal benefit of the rulers. That is what liberals desire and what I oppose.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Robert the Truce said:


> this is a dangerous way to think. the most evil regimes in history all thought the same way


Kind of like the one in power now, right?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Cletus said:


> The word I think you are looking for is "arrogant".


It is my right, within my sphere, to be arrogant. However, I'm not so arrogant to believe that I am wise enough to tell others how to live their lives for my benefit through the use of government force.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> It is my right, within my sphere, to be arrogant. However, I'm not so arrogant to believe that I am wise enough to tell others how to live their lives for my benefit through the use of government force.


Government force was enacted in our respective countries the moment they were formally declared. We are all subject to government force in one way or another. All we argue about is where we draw the line. You line is not more moral than mine unless your definition of morality is very, very narrow.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Government force was enacted in our respective countries the moment they were formally declared. We are all subject to government force in one way or another. All we argue about is where we draw the line. You line is not more moral than mine unless your definition of morality is very, very narrow.


My line is more moral, if the measurement of your morality is letting people live their lives freely and with minimal interference. 

Government forces were enacted to impose upon people and enforce a particular worldview.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> My line is more moral, if the measurement of your morality is letting people live their lives freely and with minimal interference.


As I said, for a specific definition of moral. Other definitions certainly exist - one could conceive of inventing a government whose moral imperative was the greatest good for the most citizens, by some definition that does not maximize individual freedom. Endless possibilities exist. Since there is in fact no objective criterion to decide if your morality is better than any other, it is an opinion, and not a fact.

My morality, for example, has funding universal health care from taxes as more moral than our current system. I can and will argue from that perspective all day long.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Cletus said:


> As I said, for a specific definition of moral. Other definitions certainly exist - one could conceive of inventing a government whose moral imperative was the greatest good for the most citizens, by some definition that does not maximize individual freedom. Endless possibilities exist. Since there is in fact no objective criterion to decide if your morality is better than any other, it is an opinion, and not a fact.


You cannot have two opposing positions being equally valid. One will be more valid than the other. Your position is that pro-slavery and anti-slavery are equally valid. Are they equally valid?

My position is based on the freedom the individual. The position of liberalism is imposition upon the individual for the benefit of the liberal. 

Are they really equally valid positions?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> You cannot have two opposing positions being equally valid. One will be more valid than the other. Your position is that pro-slavery and anti-slavery are equally valid. Are they equally valid?


We as a nation (species?) have mostly decided they are not equally valid. Since there is no higher authority to appeal to for confirmation, the argument has mostly been decided. Let's not forget a time when, even in the Christian Bible, slavery was seen as perfectly acceptable by the very entity many would ask.

I will be very clear - I do not believe in the existence of objective morality. Morality is what we collectively decide it is.



> My position is based on the freedom the individual. The position of liberalism is imposition upon the individual for the benefit of the liberal society.
> 
> Are they really equally valid positions?


How does one answer that question? To whom do you appeal for a verdict? If the people in that governed group collectively decide that lowering the freedom of some is an acceptable moral trade-off for all, you don't get to declare them immoral for enacting that decision. Which is exactly the current system in which we live.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

I am not interested in anyone's opinion if they think they are inherently better than other people. even Jesus did not think himself better than anyone else
It is fine if you think you are inherently better, but please leave this thread to us inferior people


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Robert the Truce said:


> this is a dangerous way to think. the most evil regimes in history all thought the same way


Yes, hence Jonty30's take on this heavy-handed action of present day Governments.

Look at Australia, for example.
Ah, it is scandalous, their reactions/actions that we witness from their government, over this virus.

The _sky is falling _sheep are destroying the worlds economies, minus those dictatorships, viz., China, Russia, etal..

Yes, the virus is dangerous, but measured responses are needed, not this _run for the hills_ mayhem.

The world is now a much less safe place due to this inane governmental response to a virus.

.......................................................................................

_Hi, I am from the Government and I am here to help._

Lordy!

Yikes, thrice!





_King Brian-_


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Yes, hence Jonty30's take on this heavy-handed action of present day Governments.
> 
> Look at Australia, for example.
> Ah, it is scandalous, their reactions/actions that we witness from their government, over this virus.
> ...


You have your own safe space. I do not have the patience for your nonsense here. i do not care about your national political views and it is not relevant


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Look at Australia, for example.
> Ah, it is scandalous, their reactions/actions that we witness from their government, over this virus.


Well, one man's scandal is another man's solution to a difficult problem. 

Last I heard, Australia had suffered a grand total of <drum roll> 2,200 deaths from Covid. In a country where nearly everything in nature is trying to kill you, they might view this as a success, of sorts.

Regardless, they are a democracy, and can dispense with their politicians the same way the rest of us do should they decide it was out-of-line. Last I checked, they were not asking me or you for our opinions on how to run their sovereign nation.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Robert the Truce said:


> You have your own safe space. I do not have the patience for your nonsense here. i do not care about your national political views and it is not relevant


I fear for you.

Aye, and I fear for myself; such is your blindness, and your presumed harmful votes to come.

And, no, I admire not, your pluck.

Robert the Bruce was a Scottish hero.

You, sir, have none of that in you.

Bah, and baaa.




_KB-_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Well, one man's scandal is another man's solution to a difficult problem.
> 
> Last I heard, Australia had suffered a grand total of <drum roll> 2,200 deaths from Covid. In a country where nearly everything in nature is trying to kill you, they might view this as a success, of sorts.
> 
> Regardless, they are a democracy, and can dispense with their politicians the same way the rest of us do should they decide it was out-of-line. Last I checked, they were not asking me or you for our opinions on how to run their sovereign nation.


Fair point! 

Sadly, sheep have not that individual spirit and will in them.

Nations that fall, do so, for the lack of patriots.

You need to watch the video news coming out of that nation!!

I have no taste for mutton, nuttin' in it for me.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Fair point!
> 
> Sadly, sheep ...


And there it is. I enjoy mutton, except when it's tainted with paternalism. Leaves a sour taste, it does.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> She gets lots of support on facebook and her instagram page and has become a leader for people who are also sceptical.


Drama is like crack for some people. Plus she's getting attention (chick crack) on top of that as a group leader. Unless it hits close to home in some way, I doubt her views would change. 

As far as the medical staff faking it, all of my friends/family in that field are more than ready for things to go back to normal. Anyone who has ever worked a ton of OT knows it's great at first, then after a while you're like F the money, I want some time off.


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## olivia33 (Jan 5, 2022)

I'm sorry for your loss and sorry that you are having issues with your wife in the way she's handling COVID19.
...


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Cletus said:


> We as a nation (species?) have mostly decided they are not equally valid. Since there is no higher authority to appeal to for confirmation, the argument has mostly been decided. Let's not forget a time when, even in the Christian Bible, slavery was seen as perfectly acceptable by the very entity many would ask.
> 
> I will be very clear - I do not believe in the existence of objective morality. Morality is what we collectively decide it is.
> 
> ...





Robert the Truce said:


> You have your own safe space. I do not have the patience for your nonsense here. i do not care about your national political views and it is not relevant


The most important value to a liberal is getting his desires fulfilled, even when they have to murder 250 million innocents, start the majority of major wars and enslave over a billion people to do it. 
Getting healthcare for liberals is worth that effort.
According to you, it's an acceptable value.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Robert the Truce said:


> She gets lots of support on facebook and her instagram page and has become a leader for people who are also sceptical.


Is this the same FB and Instagram that bans and deletes everything associated with alternative views to the official narrative?


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Fair point!
> 
> Sadly, sheep have not that individual spirit and will in them.
> 
> ...


This is a dangerous way of thinking. you are not here to help.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Drama is like crack for some people. Plus she's getting attention (chick crack) on top of that as a group leader. Unless it hits close to home in some way, I doubt her views would change.
> 
> As far as the medical staff faking it, all of my friends/family in that field are more than ready for things to go back to normal. Anyone who has ever worked a ton of OT knows it's great at first, then after a while you're like F the money, I want some time off.


I do not expect them to chage. since she has gone, i have had a great christmas and new year. i do not want to put up with arrogance like that in the future



olivia33 said:


> I'm sorry for your loss and sorry that you are having issues with your wife in the way she's handling COVID19.
> ...


Thank you. it is hard at the moment and i am waking up very early


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> I do not expect them to chage. since she has gone, i have had a great christmas and new year. i do not want to put up with arrogance like that in the future
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. it is hard at the moment and i am waking up very early


I do hope your wife recovers.
My mom had covid and it took her about a year.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Robert the Truce said:


> He was getting abuse and the when reported was told to ignore it. in the end he gave up
> what happens is it ends up with a hot house separated from reality and having to consider other opinions


No. It was pointed out to him that he could use the ignore function. Which is not the same thing at all.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> No. It was pointed out to him that he could use the ignore function. Which is not the same thing at all.


I would prefer you not to post on this thread. though it is up to you


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> I would prefer you not to post on this thread. though it is up to you


Why do you try to tell others how to live their lives?


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Why do you try to tell others how to live their lives?


my soon to be exwife tells other to live their lives and assumes she knows better than anyone. you are really sounding like her. we are separated now, i would of course be grateful for any experience you can have that might be useful. my point is that social media bubbles where people persuade themselves they are a superior elite group are dangerous. i saw it with her. i also see it with the covid thread in the politics forum and i see it with some of the posts in this thread such as from sun c mars and you.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> my soon to be exwife tells other to live their lives and assumes she knows better than anyone. you are really sounding like her. we are separated now, i would of course be grateful for any experience you can have that might be useful. my point is that social media bubbles where people persuade themselves they are a superior elite group are dangerous. i saw it with her. i also see it with the covid thread in the politics forum and i see it with some of the posts in this thread such as from sun c mars and you.


I don't consider myself superior, so I have no interest in telling others how to live their lives. I just want to live my life unencumbered of somebody who thinks it is the role of the government to make me charitable and a benefit for others. I guarantee you that I don't want anything from you and I don't want you to want anything from me.

How do you reason out the idea that wanting to live my life on my own terms, and not beholden to the permission of another, is supremacist thinking?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Robert the Truce said:


> I would prefer you not to post on this thread. though it is up to you


*Moderator warning:- *@Robert the Truce You need to understand that you do not have the right to tell other people not to post in your threads. 

Nor do you have the right to abuse the report system by submitting bogus reports on the spurious grounds that certain members keep posting in threads that you started. If you don't want to read the posts of certain members, that is what the Ignore function is for.

And you most definitely, certainly *do not* have the right to forbid Moderators from commenting in your threads, especially when they are correcting an erroneous point that you made.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator warning:- *@Robert the Truce You need to understand that you do not have the right to tell other people not to post in your threads.
> 
> Nor do you have the right to abuse the report system by submitting bogus reports on the spurious grounds that certain members keep posting in threads that you started. If you don't want to read the posts of certain members, that is what the Ignore function is for.
> 
> And you most definitely, certainly *do not* have the right to forbid Moderators from commenting in your threads, especially when they are correcting an erroneous point that you made.


It was not my intention to make this thread a anti-vac or pro-vac thread. there is already a thread for anti-vac things in the politics forum and i hope we both agree it should stay there. i did not forbid you, sorry if i gave that impression, but i think you misread


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Robert the Truce said:


> It was not my intention to make this thread a anti-vac or pro-vac thread. there is already a thread for anti-vac things in the politics forum and i hope we both agree it should stay there. i did not forbid you, sorry if i gave that impression, but i think you misread


You said "I would prefer you not to post on this thread. though it is up to you."


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> You said "I would prefer you not to post on this thread. though it is up to you."


To which you replied:
"And you most definitely, certainly *do not* have the right to forbid Moderators from commenting in your threads, especially when they are correcting an erroneous point that you made."
I did not forbid you. i realise that you moderate the anti vaccine thread on the politics forum, which is a safe space for people like my ex. that is a personal disagreement, i have stopped posting on that thread to keep it for anti vaccine people. it is not why i am here. sorry for the confusion.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> I have a few relatives who are acting similar. It's become an obsession for them. I just don't discuss it with them and try to get along as well as I can with the hope that this too shall pass.
> 
> Your situation is of course different since you live with your wife and needed to deal with this on a daily basis.
> 
> Can you put your focus more towards other things right now, maybe focus more on your children?


my children really have been great. right now, they do not seem upset that she has left. they are adult now, but still young and i am sure it is not as easy as they let me know


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> You may have difficulty with the idea that it can be done, but every mass socialist movement in the 20th century was exactly that. A core group of people taking over a country through its institutions, education and military and financial. You can't do that unless you have a coordinated effort by thousands of people. It is happening in America right now, as we speak.


I have no disagreement with that, except the last sentence. I don't know whether "_it is happening_", or whether just "_it is being attempted right now_". History will show, I guess. 

My post previously was to say that I don't think anyone planned or created covid. I have no doubt that everyone in politics and industry is trying to work out how to exploit it for their own ends. I think that's an important distinction; some may disagree. To make an analogy, people trying to work out how to profit from an earthquake is, to me, pretty different from people planning and causing an earthquake.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> I have no disagreement with that, except the last sentence. I don't know whether "_it is happening_", or whether just "_it is being attempted right now_". History will show, I guess.
> 
> My post previously was to say that I don't think anyone planned or created covid. I have no doubt that everyone in politics and industry is trying to work out how to exploit it for their own ends. I think that's an important distinction; some may disagree. To make an analogy, people trying to work out how to profit from an earthquake is, to me, pretty different from people planning and causing an earthquake.


You can't plan an earthquake, but you can plan an engineered virus in a laboratory. Not quite the same.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> You can't an an earthquake, but you can plan an engineered virus in a laboratory. Not quite the same.


Yes. I'm saying I don't think that happened. 

Regardless of that, I think I'm agreeing with your main point.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

i do not think it was about american politics


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> i do not think it was about american politics


Everything about America has been politicized.


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## Robert the Truce (Nov 29, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Everything about America has been politicized.


By people like you
There is a little thread especially for stuff like this.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Robert the Truce said:


> By people like you
> There is a little thread especially for stuff like this.


Hey, maybe you can get him banned. I doubt it but keep on. Do try and keep up.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator warning:- *@Robert the Truce You need to understand that you do not have the right to tell other people not to post in your threads.
> 
> Nor do you have the right to abuse the report system by submitting bogus reports on the spurious grounds that certain members keep posting in threads that you started. If you don't want to read the posts of certain members, that is what the Ignore function is for.
> 
> And you most definitely, certainly *do not* have the right to forbid Moderators from commenting in your threads, especially when they are correcting an erroneous point that you made.




__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Robert the Truce said:


> By people like you
> There is a little thread especially for stuff like this.


No. By people who want a Europeanized America and not the established by the Founding Fathers. The government is a necessary evil to maintain civil, not a use full to create a great society.


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