# The Orgasm Gap



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I hope it is OK to post a link here. 

The Orgasm Gap: The Real Reason Women Get Off Less Often Than Men and How to Fix It | Alternet

I have never heard of this concept before today. 

I do not consider myself a feminist, and this article was hard for me to initially swallow because of the tone of the author (a little too...all men are evil...for me) BUT if you can detach yourself from that tone when reading, I found this very interesting. 

Here's my experience: I was sexually active for five years before I had an O with a partner. I went into sex with the idea that PIV should do it for me, and when it didnt, I assumed I was broken. Instead of trying anything else, I assumed that I was just never going to enjoy sex the way a man does. This was my lot in life. 

For the first five years none of my partners tried anything different to please me and I did not ask. I thought sex was for the man, and as the article states my expectation was that I was supposed to provide the pleasure, look good, and be desirable. No man ever told me that btw. It was just my takeaway from interaction with friends, porn, society? I don't know. I want to make sure that is clear though. No guy ever told me to be that way or have those ideas. I consider myself lucky to never have been with a true @sshole. 

Anyway - I assumed it would be awkward or selfish of me to ever try anything during sex that was not going to be directly pleasurable for HIM. I never asked for anything to be done to me, for my pleasure. Honestly I didn't even know what to ask for, I was so convinced something was wrong with me for not being able to O instantly from PIV that I closed my mind to any other possibilities. The funny thing is I could O by myself, but I didn't translate that to even trying to O with a partner. 

On the flip side, the men I was with never tried or asked about my pleasure. I guess they assumed that if I wanted something different, I'd say so, and that is fair. I don't blame them. We were young and immature too. 

When I was in my first long term relationship I got more comfortable with my partner over the years. (Yes, it took years.) He was different than my previous experiences and wanted to spend more time exploring and taking our time. In that context I was able to O for the first time with a partner. It was a major breakthrough moment. 

Here's the thing. Even THEN, when I figured out it COULD actually happen with another human being, I still didn't seek an O for myself 90% of the time. I still had that mind set of it being awkward or selfish for me to want something for myself, and that asking for what I'd need to get there would be wierd. I wasnt even 100% sure what combination of moves would consistently get me there and that made me even more self conscious. What if he tried really hard and it still didnt work? As a result, I faked O's with him most of the time. I wanted him to feel good about himself and be pleased and he put so.much.pressure on me to have an O every time. He could not tell the difference between fake and real. He was a genuinely good person and wanted so badly to please me. I just could not release myself from my preconceived notions. 

That relationship ended for various reasons, nothing to do with our sex life. 

Then I met my now H. I started dating him thinking it would just be a summer fling, and I retained all my ideas of being a sex object for him and asking for nothing in return. Again, nothing to do with him. All me and my mind at work. Things got serious and we got into the groove of him wanting to please me and explore more. He got me to O, too. But I fell again into the trap of feeling so.much.pressure to O every time that I faked with him too. Not all the time. Probably 75% of the time. 

Now we have been together for 10 years, married for 7. My husband has a higher drive than I do, and I have written here before about how I am trying to be sensitive to that and keep up the frequency. I also have some meds that cause loss of drive. 

Here's the thing though. At 31 years old, I am finally ready to shed the whole mindset that I am not entitled to the same pleasure each time that the guy is. I am over my fears of appearing strange or selfish. But for the bulk of my sexually active life I have never taken the time to figure out what techniques work consistently. He would be happy to explore that I am sure, and we do have some moves that work fairly well, but I've not been able to relax enough to allow for further exploration in this area. I struggle with the following every time sex is a possibility - do I really want to exert the effort right now for a high probability of no O for me? Most of the time the answer is no! I suppose I am getting more selfish and less patient as I get older. I never used to care about an O for myself, ever. Now I do and it's a big weight when I think about whether I'm wanting to do it or not. I wish I knew the exact play book to give him to get me there every single time, but I don't. I don't even know how to get to that point. I don't even know if it is possible. My drive and even how sex physically feels is so different during different points of my cycle. Now I only approach sex if I can tell that I will be able to O easily during the process. It is a big reason why we do not have sex as much as we did in the beginning of our relationship. I want mutually beneficial sex now, not to be an object to please someone else. 

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and reactions to this. I am no longer convinced that I am "broken", but I realize I've still got a long way to go to close the gap referenced here. 


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

From a man's perspective? 

It is selfish on her part to deprive him of getting his just because she can't get hers. If she can't figure it out, how in the world is he supposed to? Most men most definitely want their spouse to get her O, but if she can't, even though he tries for an hour, or more, then she should be happy that he got his. The objective for most men, in my opinion, is to please their woman, but if she can't or won't do her part, then it's on them.

I hate to sound mean, but, the truth is most men (at least in my opinion) will do most anything (if time allows) to maximize her pleasure. If she doesn't even know how to guide her man to that, why should the man suffer because of it. That will leave him feeling like a failure if the object is to always "have" to bring her to an O, when it takes so much time and effort because she doesn't even know what will get her there. After an exhaustive hour of trying to get her there, all bets are off for most men. We will be spent. Just saying...


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

If it takes an hour, which it might I suppose, and you are exhausted -perhaps you are taking the wrong approach.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My own experience as a man is quite different. Almost every woman I've been with has several orgasms to one of mine. Is it me? Is it them? Is it luck? I don't know, but once a woman knows what does it for her, or I can figure it out, it's almost inevitable that woman has the edge on orgasms. If you are capable of having one or more, guide him to help you get there. A selfish lover is a lover not worth having, IMO.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Now I only approach sex if I can tell that I will be able to O easily during the process. It is a big reason why we do not have sex as much as we did in the beginning of our relationship. I want mutually beneficial sex now, not to be an object to please someone else.
> 
> I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and reactions to this. I am no longer convinced that I am "broken", but I realize I've still got a long way to go to close the gap referenced here.
> 
> ...


If your husband didn't care about pleasing you in bed, I'd understand why you might want to have less sex than before.

But, it seems like he's more than willing and hasn't done anything "wrong" to deserve less sex.

I'd think you'd be better off if you set the "O" aside as a definite goal. I've heard that a man "requiring" his partner to have an orgasm can cause her to not enjoy sex as much. I don't think it will work any better if you require it of yourself.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm also appalled at the low numbers on the male side, really?


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Just using that as an example, but there is a large percentage of women who rarely reach an O. For what it's worth, I was single for the first 35 years of my life, and slept with a large number of women. They were all different. Some could get an O almost immediately, while some took several minutes, while still others never got there. If I cared, I would certainly make the effort, and most would get there. Some I didn't even care about and they got theirs easily.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> If your husband didn't care about pleasing you in bed, I'd understand why you might want to have less sex than before.
> 
> But, it seems like he's more than willing and hasn't done anything "wrong" to deserve less sex.
> 
> I'd think you'd be better off if you set the "O" aside as a definite goal. I've heard that a man "requiring" his partner to have an orgasm can cause her to not enjoy sex as much. I don't think it will work any better if you require it of yourself.


Maybe I didn't convey what I wanted to in my opening post. 

My whole history has little to do with the partner and a lot to do with me. 

I don't fault the men in my life for my issue. 

After so many years of not having my O as the goal, the pendulum is swinging in the other direction. That's all I meant. 

I can certainly still enjoy sex without an O. It's still pleasurable. But feels incomplete. 

And I am a bit dismayed that I've let my history and ideals rule my sex life for most of my life thus far. 

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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

In general, I haven't been with women who have had difficulty having an orgasm and I'm not attributing that to my skill just a comparatively small sample size.

But I think the conclusions reached in the article are way overblown for the data available and they acknowledge but don't give proper weight to basic biological differences that have little to do with social or relationship status. There is also an orgasm gap in masturbation and even while sleeping. 

Relationship sex undoubtedly is more likely to allow for the greater time and comfort level required by some woman to open up about what she truly wants. But then again the thrill of the "hookup" for those who seek it out, isn't necessarily measured solely by the number of orgasms.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

As an HD man married to an LD woman. I have come to understand that I will O more than my wife if we are to both be happy. I really do like making her O, but I also understand I don't want to pressure her to the point that she fakes them. I understand and she does that sometimes she just will not be able to have an O. We both know and understand that.

Just like I love to pleasure my wife, she likes to be able to pleasure me, just not as often. We have (with the help of a sex therapist who helped to save our marriage) negotiated a frequency of sex that we can both be satisfied with. It is much more than my wife would prefer on her own and a little less than I would prefer, but we both can find happiness with this compromise.

I would say that I O almost every time we have sex which is twice a week. And that my wife O's about 3 our of ever 4 times. 

Just as we have different arousal patterns and just as we both have different preferred sexual frequency desires, we orgasm differently was well. My wife needs to be rested, relaxed, no work stress, no family stress. If she is worried about work or a big family event, she just can't relax and clear her mind to the point that she can O. 

Even though she may know that she can't O on a particular night she still loves me, wants to please me, takes pride in her ability to pleasure her husband, and enjoys the post-coital cuddling. 

So to the OP, sex should be fun, exploratory and you should be able to laugh about it with your spouse. Enjoy and stop worrying about an orgasm gap. Stop faking it. 

If you need to change habits learn how to masturbate while having you H entered from behind you. Then by trial and error learn how to climax together. Tell him how special it was, do it a lot until he feels like a stud. Then don't fake O's when you have sex in other positions. Take some responsibility for your own O's.

Good luck.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Explore. It will be worth the effort and you don't have to take it too seriously.

Have stupid fun finding things out without any anxiety or stress.

You love each other so get naked and enjoy the time.

You also may want to look into diet improvements as well as alternate choices for medicine.

You might trip if you're walking down a path, it might cause pain if you fall. 

You will never trip if you don't move but you won't get anywhere either.

Journeys can be dangerous but beautiful and transforming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and reactions to this. I am no longer convinced that I am "broken", but I realize I've still got a long way to go to close the gap referenced here.


Your post was very interesting to me, especially since I can see a few of my wife's traits in your thought process. It seems that your husband is a good guy who tries to treat you well. Therefore, I suggest that on the days that you feel an orgasm is possible, you let him know that you want it to last longer. When you aren't feeling it, still be available to your husband for a quickie. There will probably be a few times that your feelings will change after the quickie begins and you'll desire an orgasm when you didn't expect to. 

Again, assuming that your husband has been a good husband, reward him sometimes by seducing him occasionally when you don't quite have that strong desire. Keep sex a regular part of your week.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
they only situation I know anything about is my own.

My wife and I both almost always have an orgasm during a lovemaking session - and always have. Very occasionally one or the other of us will have 2. I always offer to give her a second, she almost always turns me down.

I am very happy to do anything I think she wants in bed - but I'm not psychic, so I may not know what she wants if she doesn't give me a hint.

I have very limited experience with other women and it was a very long time ago. I believe that they have always had an orgasm - but of course might have been faking. I certainly was willing to do what I thought they wanted in bed.

I take pride in being a good lover - or at least in doing my best to be one. 



I certainly believe that this is not always the case. There are many selfish men. There are also many selfish or uneducated women who think that if a guy got off, it must have been great. 


There are also women and men who are too shy to ask for what they want. Some partners may have the best intentions, but simply not know what their partners want.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I guess I am just at a turning point in my life where I am shocked at how many years I let pass me by just thinking I was broken for not being able to O easily. 

Doesn't have anything to do with my partner, just all me and my ideas that were poorly formed.

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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Maybe I didn't convey what I wanted to in my opening post.
> 
> My whole history has little to do with the partner and a lot to do with me.
> 
> ...


I understand your needs and sympathize. But you said "Now I only approach sex if I can tell that I will be able to O easily during the process. _It is a big reason why we do not have sex as much as we did in the beginning of our relationship_" but if your husband is willing to work on doing whatever is necessary to get you there, wants sex and he's done nothing wrong, it seems like he might be paying the price for things he didn't cause.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> Your post was very interesting to me, especially since I can see a few of my wife's traits in your thought process. It seems that your husband is a good guy who tries to treat you well. Therefore, I suggest that on the days that you feel an orgasm is possible, you let him know that you want it to last longer. When you aren't feeling it, still be available to your husband for a quickie. There will probably be a few times that your feelings will change after the quickie begins and you'll desire an orgasm when you didn't expect to.
> 
> Again, assuming that your husband has been a good husband, reward him sometimes by seducing him occasionally when you don't quite have that strong desire. Keep sex a regular part of your week.


This is generally what I do. 

I will still do things for him to please him. 

However I am guilty of making a value judgment before the encounter begins of whether I am up for the (seemingly monumental) task of trying to O. That will color my perspective as to whether I'm "all in" or just focusing on him. 

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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

My experiences were so different!

I went into sex assuming that it would be pleasurable for me,too, because I'd heard so much from female friends and family about their experiences.

I started having sex at 15, but I never reached orgasm with my first lover. He was, frankly, large and lacked skill because he thought he could coast along on his size. Yeah, no.

After him I could orgasm fairly easily from PIV if I was attracted to the man and he had just a little bit of skill. I kind of went on like that for years. I had no idea that all women couldn't orgasm from PIV until I was in my 20's and someone mentioned it when we were talking about sex.

Because I could rather easily orgasm, if I had sex with someone and it wasn't good, that was it! No more chances. I knew I could experience pleasure, so why waste my time on someone who couldn't give that to me?

And when I talked to women who couldn't orgasm from PIV, I never understood why they stayed in the cases where their partners weren't trying and succeeding at giving them orgasms from direct clitoral stimulation. It never even crossed my mind that the woman might feel "broken" or hopeless.



Married but Happy said:


> I don't know, but once a woman knows what does it for her, or I can figure it out, it's almost inevitable that woman has the edge on orgasms.


When I read the thread title, I thought it was going to be about how a woman can have multiple orgasms during a single session where the man usually only gets to have one and then needs some recovery time. I mean, sure, sometimes the guy can go again right away, but it's not something you can count on.

I've always felt a bit guilty that I can spend an hour having increasingly intense orgasms and then have a few more when we've reached PIV, but poor DH only gets one or two. I try to make his one or two very intense, but it's still a lot less than I get.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> My experiences were so different!
> 
> I went into sex assuming that it would be pleasurable for me,too, because I'd heard so much from female friends and family about their experiences.
> 
> ...


Well color me jealous. 

Your story is actually what I perceive "most" women to be like. It is one of the reasons I've let this go on for so many years. A feeling of being crazy or inadequate for not being able to do what "everyone else" can do. 

I had a roommate in college who slept around a lot. I did not judge her for that but was always mystified as to WHY she would want to. Then I realized she's probably like you, and getting pleasure out of sex! Duh! For me I only experienced O after being with someone for YEARS so had no expectations that a one night stand was going to do anything for me. I performed sex for a man because I cared for him as a gift to him. I don't care about a stranger I just met so why perform for him? 

I used to fantasize about what it must be like to be the man during sex. It seems to me that it must be amazing to be able to do pretty much anything and feel pleasure that can result in O. 

I currently have two positions/moves that work. Most of the time. When the planets are aligned correctly. 

I feel thankful for those two because I went so many years with zero. But then I get jealous at the man and how easy it is for them! 

Stupid body! 

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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Jesus Christ just be gay already. If the wind blows it's because of the white male cisheteropatriarchy. Go find a safe space and rage against the machine.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

kag123 said:


> Well color me jealous.
> 
> Your story is actually what I perceive "most" women to be like. It is one of the reasons I've let this go on for so many years. A feeling of being crazy or inadequate for not being able to do what "everyone else" can do.
> 
> ...


I wonder. I've had some debates with friends on whether women who can't orgasm from PIV are suffering a mental block or a physical block.

We're designed to want to have sex. It's biological. Propagation of the species. And, allegedly, a woman's vaginal and uterine contractions during orgasm increase the chance of conception by helping the sperm along. So, it doesn't make sense that nature would design so many of the females of our species in such a way that they cannot orgasm from PIV.

I wonder how much societal and religious programming along with a healthy dose of ignorance of female anatomy (among both genders)and sexual response is to blame.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Never ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Never ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance.


Not ascribing any malice here. 

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

The orgasm gap is a big issue for me, I also went way too long never speaking up for it or myself (and not really knowing how to) I still get a nagging feeling of selfish when I tell him that orgasms should be equal for the most part and that I'm not ok with him getting his and him not returning the favour. 

I do know what you mean, I think we should be teaching girls about orgasms, exploring their own body and making it important enough for them to not let a partner get away with it not being a priority to them too. 

Had I known 10, 15 years ago that it was so important it would have saved me a lot of trouble. 

Porn doesn't help. Guy sticks it in with little to no foreplay, woman starts moaning and Oing. Girls think that's how it should be just as often as boys do. So when it take some more time, effort, experimenting, you feel that broken feeling AND selfish for even asking.


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## Fitnessfan (Nov 18, 2014)

I completely get this. I never had an O with a man until I met my husband and even then it wasn't every time. Like you, different times in my cycle make it easier or more difficult. I recommend more masturbation to be honest. I don't know how often you masturbate, but when I started doing that more often, it started to become easier to O with hubby. I agree with one of the posters who said to use your own hands during doggy to help you get there. Very successful for me! Have you thought about using a vibrator together for the times when you feel like you can't O by PIV alone? Have you ever used a vibrator on yourself, while he is inside you? Try that, it's really nice. 

I am glad you don't feel anymore like there is something wrong with you. There isn't! A lot of women have trouble with orgasm.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Well, I have an anxiety disorder that I am under treatment for. So yes, I'm an anxious type.  

Drinking definitely puts me in the mood, but makes it pretty much impossible for me to O. Even just one drink makes it much more difficult. 

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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I do know what you mean, I think we should be teaching girls about orgasms, exploring their own body and making it important enough for them to not let a partner get away with it not being a priority to them too.
> 
> Porn doesn't help. Guy sticks it in with little to no foreplay, woman starts moaning and Oing. Girls think that's how it should be just as often as boys do. So when it take some more time, effort, experimenting, you feel that broken feeling AND selfish for even asking.


Clearly, we need to be having talks with the boys, too.

We teach our kids the parts of the body. We teach our kids about sex. We teach them whatever morality associated with sex. We teach them about contraception and disease prevention. Why are we also not teaching them that many women do not reach orgasm from PIV alone and need additional stimulation?

Isn't the goal to raise happy, healthy, adults who enjoy their bodies? Don't we want our kids to have sex lives full of joy and pleasure? So, why aren't parents telling their kids where the clitoris is and that it may need extra stimulation for the woman to enjoy the sex act?

Why are we not telling our boys that it's just good manners and fair play to see to his female partners satisfaction before or after he gets his own?

Ok, off the soap box!

BTW, I have actually told explained the difference between real sex and porn sex to my son. Which, let's be honest, can be very much or nothing at all depending on chemistry, mood, and 300 other factors.

And I have explained to him that some women cannot orgasm through PIV and need extra stimulation and, as a gentleman, he should see to her needs.

I chickened out on explaining the location and function of the clitoris or how to best stimulate it. I told him to read a couple articles online I sent him and google some anatomical images.

All of this was AFTER I came home and caught him watching porn and masturbating. Not traumatic obviously caught, but no doubt. So, I figured it was a good time to tell him a few things beyond the bare facts of what goes where.



OliviaG said:


> I was lucky to be able to O multiple times very easily. Also have always been HD and so I wonder if balance of hormones play a part.
> 
> But I really think that just like men can get messed up if they lose confidence in their ability to get an erection, women can lose confidence in the ability to O. It can be really difficult to get it back, I'm thinking. Plus, even though I have confidence, I find that I don't O if I'm anxious. Recently my husband having intermittent ED, for instance, has thrown me for a loop. The last two times we had sex I was so anxious about what was going on with him that I couldn't relax enough to O (at least I think that must be what happened).
> 
> Do you find that a drink or two relaxes you? I don't know what it is, but if I drink gin in particular, I get into an adventurous and relaxed state and I want to have sex. Interesting things always happen when I'm drinking gin..lol.. (Wine makes me too tired to be able to think never mind have sex, not sure why). I'm not suggesting getting drunk, but I wonder a drink before sex might be helpful for a while until you find your groove (assuming alcohol is not problematic for you)? I have a feeling you have to find some way of getting out of your head and losing the anxiety.


Maybe for a lot of women it isn't a confidence or anxiety thing. Maybe they just figure they aren't orgasmic and that's just the way it is. They try a few guys or with themselves, it doesn't happen, and they just accept that. The mind becomes made up.

For me, it's a particular spiced red wine. That stuff is magic!



kag123 said:


> Well, I have an anxiety disorder that I am under treatment for. So yes, I'm an anxious type.
> 
> Drinking definitely puts me in the mood, but makes it pretty much impossible for me to O. Even just one drink makes it much more difficult.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


When you drink do you relax and focus on your body or are you more in your head?



OliviaG said:


> Hmm. I wonder if the medication you take for anxiety makes it difficult to O?


I had a lot hit me at once last spring. I was given anti-depressant/anti-anxiety meds. Both meds I tried made me unable to orgasm. 

I no longer take those meds. I was having a harder time coping with the loss of orgasm than I was having coping with the depression and anxiety.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I was never really given proper sex education but what my Mum did do is reinforce the beliefs of equality and Feminism. I never considered that sex was a one sided affair and always expected to enjoy the experience equally. I'm not sure I ever really encountered a selfish lover but then again I expected it to be a fun experience for both people. Sure there were clumsy, inexperienced encounters early on but that was part of the learning curve.

Over the years and different partners there have been differences, with my LD ex husband I could O from PIV very quickly. These days being older it takes longer but now I can have multiples and that is a very positive thing. 

OP I am sorry to hear you have had such a difficult time over the years. Be free and know you are equally as important when it comes to enjoying the experience.


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## Quigster (Aug 1, 2015)

kag123 said:


> I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and reactions to this. I am no longer convinced that I am "broken", but I realize I've still got a long way to go to close the gap referenced here.


Biologically, it makes sense for a woman to take longer to reach orgasm. It would encourage her to seek out more than one potential male suitor (who would finish before she was satisfied), thus allowing multiple suitors to inseminate her, increase the chances of conception, and thus ensure propagation of the species.

In some ways, we've really mucked up sex by taking a simple biological function and ascribing all this societal and moral meaning to it. It doesn't have to be as complicated as we make it.

In modern society, women are taught to be ashamed of their sexuality, that a "good girl" doesn't want sex, and that if she does want sex, she's a tramp. I think that prevents a lot of women from exploring their own sexuality, learning what turns them on, and allowing them to discover what most effectively guides them to orgasm. Coupled with a male's tendency to finish first, it's almost not worth it to learn. (Not sure how scientific this is, but men are constantly producing new sperm, and they can only store so much in reserve. It stands to reason that it should be easier for them to orgasm or else they would never be able to expel the backlog that they have manufactured.)

Women need to not be afraid of self-exploration, since it's the only way they can learn how their bodies operate and discover what they do and do not like. They need to be able to communicate with their sex partners in an honest and truthful way so they can pass on this knowledge. And they need to not hold themselves to the same standards that men do. 

This is just one of many reasons why open and honest communication are key in any sexual relationship.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> I wonder. I've had some debates with friends on whether women who can't orgasm from PIV are suffering a mental block or a physical block.
> 
> We're designed to want to have sex. It's biological. Propagation of the species. And, allegedly, a woman's vaginal and uterine contractions during orgasm increase the chance of conception by helping the sperm along. So, it doesn't make sense that nature would design so many of the females of our species in such a way that they cannot orgasm from PIV.
> 
> I wonder how much societal and religious programming along with a healthy dose of ignorance of female anatomy (among both genders)and sexual response is to blame.


I have wondered this myself. I have had intercourse with three women, and all three could orgasm through PIV. It could be a statistical fluke, but going by the accepted numbers, only one of them at best should have been able to. There could be an element of self selecting sample along the line of what FaithfulWife has talked about...sexdar, and how some people are very in tune with and seek out, even subconsciously, other highly sexual people.

All three women I have been with had much higher partner counts than I have, but only my first knew she was able to O through PIV before we slept together, but all three knew they were orgasmic through other partnered means.

Before my wife and I started sleeping together and dating, we talked a lot about sex because it was something that was important to both of us with regards to a partner and relationship. I was a bit concerned as she opened up as she'd had over 30 partners, but only had an orgasm in half of her encounters, one and done, never through PIV, with oral being very difficult for her to O. As we talked about that, it was pretty clear that she felt that at 36 years old, numerous partners and encounters, she had discovered just about every nuance of her sexuality and sexual response, and was resigned to simply enjoy what she could.

Boy, was she wrong...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I guess I am just at a turning point in my life where I am shocked at how many years I let pass me by just thinking I was broken for not being able to O easily.


No time like the present to turn that around!

TBH, I think women need to be more selfish about sex. I'm always astonished at how often women ignore their own orgasm, or care only about the bonding. Or feel guilty because it takes too long.

For me, if there's no orgasm, then it was crappy sex, pure and simple, and crappy sex doesn't help me feel close to my SO in any way.

I agree with other posters who suggested you take time on your own to give yourself pleasure. Find your sweet spots, experiment a bit, and don't let your head get in the way. A good chunk of sexual pleasure is in the brain, and letting go of the performance anxiety and focusing on sensation will help immensely.

And please, don't feel guilty for the effort he puts in. Remind yourself of how much effort you have put in just for him, and accept that it is okay for him to do the same for you.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

The strange thing is when I was younger I never considered myself LD, despite this issue. I was a serial monogamist so I never had ONS, I was mostly in a relationship all of the time. But I was still doing it 2-3x a week on average. For years and years. Just not getting an O out of it 99% of the time. 

Also, I do MB and can get myself there without an issue. It's just with a partner that has always been not so easy. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

always_alone said:


> No time like the present to turn that around!.


Ain't that the truth! Always searching for enhanced pleasure...



always_alone said:


> TBH, I think women need to be more selfish about sex. I'm always astonished at how often women ignore their own orgasm, or care only about the bonding. Or feel guilty because it takes too long..


Maybe, but don't deny your partner their pleasure because of your own inability to get there. Feeling guilt in and of itself works as a mental block. Nobody should ever feel guilty because "it takes too long". Most partners would do it willingly.



always_alone said:


> For me, if there's no orgasm, then it was crappy sex, pure and simple, and crappy sex doesn't help me feel close to my SO in any way..


Sex is MUCH better, and a whole LOT more fulfilling when both partners orgasm. I don't remember ever having "crappy sex", just good, better, and out of this world. :grin2:



always_alone said:


> I agree with other posters who suggested you take time on your own to give yourself pleasure. Find your sweet spots, experiment a bit, and don't let your head get in the way. A good chunk of sexual pleasure is in the brain, and letting go of the performance anxiety and focusing on sensation will help immensely..


EXACTLY!...with a big emphasis on not letting your head get in the way.



always_alone said:


> And please, don't feel guilty for the effort he puts in. Remind yourself of how much effort you have put in just for him, and accept that it is okay for him to do the same for you.


Nobody should feel any guilt when it comes to sex. That's a mental block in and of itself. Most partners are willing, some even eager, to put forth whatever effort it takes to please their partner.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

kag123 said:


> The strange thing is when I was younger I never considered myself LD, despite this issue. I was a serial monogamist so I never had ONS, I was mostly in a relationship all of the time. But I was still doing it 2-3x a week on average. For years and years. Just not getting an O out of it 99% of the time.
> 
> Also, I do MB and can get myself there without an issue. It's just with a partner that has always been not so easy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


With the exception of a few ONS's, this is very much parallel to my wife. She and I have talked frequently about our sex life, and she is not really able to articulate why things are so different with me.

The only thing she has been able to specifically point to was our second date, I got her naked on the couch, went down on her without any hesitation, and she orgasmed in less than five minutes. She frequently points to that experience as a turning point for her where she knew this was going to be like nothing she had ever known before...jokingly adding that she also knew right then that she was going to marry me.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Also, I do MB and can get myself there without an issue. It's just with a partner that has always been not so easy.


Do you know what makes it difficult for you with a partner? Is it that he doesn't touch you the way you want? That you are self-conscious or nervous? That you can't let go when you need to or get distracted by other things? 

All of the above? None of the above?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Do you know what makes it difficult for you with a partner? Is it that he doesn't touch you the way you want? That you are self-conscious or nervous? That you can't let go when you need to or get distracted by other things?
> 
> All of the above? None of the above?


Along with this, I am curious as to how many partners she has had. The fact that she has averaged 2-3x a week while orgasming almost never tells me a couple of things. She likely doesn't have too many physical hangups, and that she has a very healthy sex drive.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In my teenage years I had a vast collection of porn that lead me to believe that women were readily orgasmic and that penetration alone would be enough to send any woman into ecstasy. Fortunately by the time I reached college I had figured out that everything in porn was faked and that the facial expressions of the women in the films was not pleasure but more likely a painful wince of just waiting for it to be over. 

When I became sexually active, I think I was hyper sensitive to knowing that what I was doing was mutually pleasurable. I remember my girlfriends liking to receive oral sex, but that they would do PIV mostly because they wanted to make me happy. When I questioned one of my girlfriends, she said that she really had no interest in PIV and would be just fine without it. So I remember being a freshman in college and walking across campus to go back to my dorm devastated that sex was likely NOT something that was mutually enjoyable for most women. Meanwhile I remember my college buddies watching porn and thinking everything was real. 

...fast forward to now, my wife primarily orgasms through nipple stimulation even though she says she feels as if it comes from PIV. Combine that with a powerful bullet vibe in just the right spot while we make love and she looses count of her orgasms, and I barely manage to hang on. She laughs at me afterwards that I only get to have one orgasm each time!

While I had a very rough emotional experience in college with girls, it helped tune me into the reality of female sexuality.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

kag123--I've been encouraging my wife for years to start thinking like you. Fortunately, she's beginning to, but for years she carried around a lot of the same notions you did. Sex was PiV only. Anything else was simply off the menu. She also does not O easily, so without being open to any additional stimulation--well you can do the math on that one.

Even after she started becoming more open to other things, it took quite a while to actually become comfortable enough with them to where she could allow herself to O. There's no magic position, technique, or device that is a sure-shot for her. Whether she O's or not begins in her own headspace.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Do you know what makes it difficult for you with a partner? Is it that he doesn't touch you the way you want? That you are self-conscious or nervous? That you can't let go when you need to or get distracted by other things?
> 
> All of the above? None of the above?


It just feels a lot different than anything I do to myself. The difference in sensation is something that I have to adjust to. It's probably mental, too. I don't know.

I can O with a vibe and a partner very quickly. However, I don't always want to use one and H doesn't really like using them all the time either. They do seem to decrease the intimacy a bit and limit positions. 

Right now I have a different issue. I am taking SSRIs (which I cannot come off of at this time) and they decrease all sensation significantly. So touching down there feels the same as someone touching your hand. Will you get off that way? I've had to adjust meds - I'm now on the absolute lowest dose that I can manage and function normally, at this dose I still have some break through symptoms but I have gained back some of my sex drive, so I'm trying to live with the break through symptoms as much as I can. I've had to relearn how to O, and it's been difficult. 

This happened before too. The way sex felt to me before having kids is very different than now. TMI but after my first birth I had some significant tearing and had to have about 30 stitches. The doctor was very careful and skilled but there is still scar tissue and things just felt different ever since. For two years after it was extremely painful in some positions. Doctor told me it's because of all of the nerves involved in the scar area. The pain has since resolved but the sensation near the scar is different. 

Then on top of that a couple of years later I started the SSRI which further changed things. So it's also a little like I am making progress on figuring out what works and then the game changes again.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

badsanta said:


> In my teenage years I had a vast collection of porn that lead me to believe that women were readily orgasmic and that penetration alone would be enough to send any woman into ecstasy. Fortunately by the time I reached college I had figured out that everything in porn was faked and that the facial expressions of the women in the films was not pleasure but more likely a painful wince of just waiting for it to be over.
> 
> When I became sexually active, I think I was hyper sensitive to knowing that what I was doing was mutually pleasurable. I remember my girlfriends liking to receive oral sex, but that they would do PIV mostly because they wanted to make me happy. When I questioned one of my girlfriends, she said that she really had no interest in PIV and would be just fine without it. So I remember being a freshman in college and walking across campus to go back to my dorm devastated that sex was likely NOT something that was mutually enjoyable for most women. Meanwhile I remember my college buddies watching porn and thinking everything was real.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your story. 

I never thought about it from the man's perspective before, that they too might be dismayed to find out that PIV doesn't work for the woman. 

My H cares deeply about my pleasure and sometimes I think he cares TOO MUCH. I sometimes feel that he wraps up his whole self worth in whether I can O or not and that is mentally hard on me. It feels like having to give him a performance to make sure he doesn't feel disappointed. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Also, I do MB and can get myself there without an issue. It's just with a partner that has always been not so easy.


Men are visual creatures sometimes its just easier to see than describe.

Let your husband watch you masturbate. From start to orgasm. Maybe even a few times. 

If he can see how you touch yourself, it may make it easier for him to push the right buttons.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Every woman I've ever been in an LTR with has had times where she's willing, or open, or even desiring of sex...

But doesn't want an orgasm at that time. 

It may be a desire for a rushed passionate quickie. It may be a fixation on pleasing me. It may be that she's horny but tired, and for some, orgasms are hard work or take a lot out of them. Or maybe she just needs to connect. 

I would love to give a woman an o every time. But I'm not going to make it a big deal if that's not what they want. 

Why keep score?

Unless of course the real problem is that you have a partner that isn't very concerned with your pleasure. 

Or you haven't educated him on what works for you, because you don't know or won't say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

marduk said:


> Every woman I've ever been in an LTR with has had times where she's willing, or open, or even desiring of sex...
> 
> *But doesn't want an orgasm at that time. *
> 
> ...


There are times where my wife will actively initiate leading to and finishing with intercourse with no intention of getting an O for herself, though she knows it's always on the table for her.

We have talked about that, because early on in our relationship she would do that, and it did bother me. I can't really articulate exactly why it bothered me other than it made things just seem "off" for me. I never put pressure on her in those circumstances, but it did make me a bit more hesitant in engaging with her initiations.

I have finally come to understand that it is her way of levelling our personal orgasm gap, as it is easily 4 to 1 in her favor. For her, my hesitation when she was wanting to do things that focused on my pleasure, was actually me rejecting her.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> Every woman I've ever been in an LTR with has had times where she's willing, or open, or even desiring of sex...
> 
> But doesn't want an orgasm at that time.
> 
> It may be a desire for a rushed passionate quickie. It may be a fixation on pleasing me. It may be that she's horny but tired, and for some, orgasms are hard work or take a lot out of them. Or maybe she just needs to connect.


Really? Honestly, I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around that. Not that every woman is like me, but it just, I dunno, it feels *wrong* somehow. Like women are selling themselves short when they don't have to. 

Rushed passionate quickie? I *still* want my orgasm and will be cranky if I don't get it. Need connection? What better way than an orgasm? Hard work? All the best things in life are hard!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

kag123 said:


> It just feels a lot different than anything I do to myself. The difference in sensation is something that I have to adjust to. It's probably mental, too. I don't know.


Can you get him to replicate more what you do? Perhaps show him? Guide his hand?

I agree that vibes should be kept to sometimes use -- I find them terribly desensitizing. And SSRIs are also well-known to be a big hurdle.

The mental stuff, though, can help you get around that. Fantasy, teasing, foreplay, whatever works you up can go a long way to getting you over the edge.

It sounds as though you are trying all the right things, but just have some extra challenges making it harder. Stick with it, believe in your own cause, and you will likely get there.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Really? Honestly, I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around that. Not that every woman is like me, but it just, I dunno, it feels *wrong* somehow. Like women are selling themselves short when they don't have to.
> 
> Rushed passionate quickie? I *still* want my orgasm and will be cranky if I don't get it. Need connection? What better way than an orgasm? Hard work? All the best things in life are hard!


Yeah, really. I've seen the same as marduk. Most of the time my wife and past partners want an orgasm too, but there are times when they can't (can't relax, too tired, too wired - whatever) but still enjoy the connection and intimacy, or even just pleasing their spouse. I think women have a LOT more variation in this than men.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Really? Honestly, I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around that. Not that every woman is like me, but it just, I dunno, it feels *wrong* somehow. Like women are selling themselves short when they don't have to.
> 
> Rushed passionate quickie? I *still* want my orgasm and will be cranky if I don't get it. Need connection? What better way than an orgasm? Hard work? All the best things in life are hard!


Many women aren't wired like that. 

I don't know what it's like to have sex without an o, and like you I would likely feel unfulfilled. 

But I learned to accept it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

kag123 said:


> My H cares deeply about my pleasure and sometimes I think he cares TOO MUCH. I sometimes feel that he wraps up his whole self worth in whether I can O or not and that is mentally hard on me.* It feels like having to give him a performance to make sure he doesn't feel disappointed. *
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


*Be careful with that as forcing/anticipating orgasms can be frustrating.* Sometimes it is much better to take the focus OFF of having an O and instead focus on helping each other relax and gently build levels of arousal. Then an O happens as an unexpected reward for something that is also nice to continue going longer had it not happened. 

Try doing this with your husband. Bring him to the edge and ask him to try NOT to O and enjoy watching him fail! Then get him to try learning to do the same with you. 

To me, the best O's are the ones you try NOT to have, while you focus on deep breathing and relaxing your PC muscles. Most people orgasm with PC muscles clinched as tight as possible along with all the abdominal muscles very tensed and short breaths. If you can learn to plateau and relax into the edge, breath deeply, and remain completely relaxed as you begin to O, it will likely redefine the experience for both of you! 

Good luck!
Badsanta


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

What scares me is that "accepting" this seems to me to encourage men to be lazy and selfish lovers. Because it reinforces the whole "women don't really like sex and just do it to please men routine".

KWIM?

ETA: I've been with guys who really only care about their O and take it completely for granted that they should have one, while also assuming that mine doesn't matter. That noise pi$$es me off royally.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> *Be careful with that as forcing/anticipating orgasms can be frustrating.* Sometimes it is much better to take the focus OFF of having an O and instead focus on helping each other relax and gently build levels of arousal. Then an O happens as an unexpected reward for something that is also nice to continue going longer had it not happened.
> 
> Try doing this with your husband. Bring him to the edge and ask him to try NOT to O and enjoy watching him fail! Then get him to try learning to do the same with you.
> 
> ...


One of the reasons why cowgirl is far and away the most pleasurable position for me. It's pretty much impossible for those muscle sets to relax while thrusting.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> All the best things in life are hard!


I detect a possible new signature quote.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
For women who sometimes feel like they are not going to orgasm in a lovemaking session - would you prefer your partner used a vibrator to help you orgasm (assuming you thought that is all that would work) , or would you prefer if sometimes when you didn't feel like it they just stopped trying that day?

Basically is an orgasm by any means better than none at all?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> For women who sometimes feel like they are not going to orgasm in a lovemaking session - would you prefer your partner used a vibrator to help you orgasm (assuming you thought that is all that would work) , or would you prefer if sometimes when you didn't feel like it they just stopped trying that day?
> 
> Basically is an orgasm by any means better than none at all?


I have a lot of different variables stacked against me. 

I try to keep my sex life alive and going because I know my H has a higher drive than I do. But it's not easy. The only time we can connect is at bed time, and I am exhausted then and very much not in the mood to stay up any longer than I have to. So the whole taking our time thing and setting the mood and just playing...it doesn't happen often for us. 

Most of the time I know ahead of time when something is going to be just for him. And I am fine with that and do not have any resentment over it. I still get aroused by pleasing him, but it will only be a very slight arousal not like a dying need to O. If that makes sense. And I can just ignore it and it will go away. 

Other times I may go into it thinking I don't want to O, and will be surprised to find myself very aroused and change my mind. In those times I will usually ask for something quick that I know will result in the O. For me the quickest is a vibe or oral. He will always oblige. 

We haven't had a lot of opportunities since the kids have been in our lives to have long periods to just lay in bed and explore. Maybe I need to schedule that in our future. 

Since the kids have been born, it's almost like I have an O quota in any given cycle. I cannot O more than once every few days. It just won't happen. It's like I need to let the anticipation build a bit or something. That is alone or with H. The only thing I can think is that it must be hormone related? I started noticing it after my two births well before I started the SSRI.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, really. I've seen the same as marduk. Most of the time my wife and past partners want an orgasm too, but there are times when they can't (can't relax, too tired, too wired - whatever) but still enjoy the connection and intimacy, or even just pleasing their spouse. I think women have a LOT more variation in this than men.


I will happily do this maybe once or twice a year. Sometimes I am just that exhausted, too much to drink, stressed or whatever. I tell him I'm not going to finish but want him to enjoy himself. As we have a healthy sex life I don't feel ripped off because I know I can get mine whenever I want. He is a very giving, unselfish lover so all is good.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> What scares me is that "accepting" this seems to me to encourage men to be lazy and selfish lovers. Because it reinforces the whole "women don't really like sex and just do it to please men routine".
> 
> KWIM?
> 
> ETA: I've been with guys who really only care about their O and take it completely for granted that they should have one, while also assuming that mine doesn't matter. That noise pi$$es me off royally.


From what I've been told by women, there's a balance.

I think the goal for me became being willing to work to give her an O whenever she wants one in whatever way she wants it... but not putting pressure on her or trying to force it if she doesn't.

I'm very goal oriented. It was difficult for me to learn this.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Holland said:


> I will happily do this maybe once or twice a year. Sometimes I am just that exhausted, too much to drink, stressed or whatever. I tell him I'm not going to finish but want him to enjoy himself. As we have a healthy sex life I don't feel ripped off because I know I can get mine whenever I want. He is a very giving, unselfish lover so all is good.


What I think is funny are the times I hear "I'm tired, just go ahead and do what you want..."

And then I say "awesome" and really go for that and suddenly - POP! - there's her O. Almost accidental.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

16 years, 8000+ orgasms for me, about 32,000+ for her - yes, there's a gap, and if she skips one occasionally, she's okay with that!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> 16 years, 8000+ orgasms for me, about 32,000+ for her - yes, there's a gap, and if she skips one occasionally, she's okay with that!


What, do you keep a mop next to the bed?

Holy crap!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

marduk said:


> From what I've been told by women, there's a balance.
> 
> I think the goal for me became being willing to work to give her an O whenever she wants one in whatever way she wants it... but not putting pressure on her or trying to force it if she doesn't.
> 
> I'm very goal oriented. It was difficult for me to learn this.


Mr H is a very goal orientated man, was weird for him at first if I said I'm not going to get there, knock yourself out and enjoy. It didn't sit well with him and he thought it was odd. It happens so rarely but now he is fine with it and as I said there is plenty of sex here anyway.


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## billgour (Oct 31, 2010)

I know I have brought up this theme before, but I think it ears repeating. Sex, in my mind, is far too focused on PIV sex. Women often don't orgasm, while the man might last just a little while before ejaculating. Cunnilingus, on the other hand, can last as long as you want it to. In fact, cunnilingus, not PIV, should be THE central act, in my opinion anyway.


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## Fitnessfan (Nov 18, 2014)

billgour said:


> I know I have brought up this theme before, but I think it ears repeating. Sex, in my mind, is far too focused on PIV sex. Women often don't orgasm, while the man might last just a little while before ejaculating. Cunnilingus, on the other hand, can last as long as you want it to. In fact, cunnilingus, not PIV, should be THE central act, in my opinion anyway.


I like both but prefer PIV, so depends on the woman.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> Men are visual creatures sometimes its just easier to see than describe.
> 
> Let your husband watch you masturbate. From start to orgasm. Maybe even a few times.
> 
> If he can see how you touch yourself, it may make it easier for him to push the right buttons.


Watching me do that would be pretty boring. Not a lot going on but a very well placed toy that doesn't move that much. What I want him to do vs. what I can do myself are pretty different. 

It's still important to know how you work and masturbate alone but 
for me at least there's not a lot to learn from it. 

My H watches women masturbating in porn, it's nothing like what I actually do. 
Taking his hand and putting it where I want it works a little. There's always little things like if I shift over, don't move with me. I'm trying to get you in a better spot. If I'm trying to back away from you, stop coming up with me, slow the heck down and be softer, but he's never been real good with body language.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
generally true, but of course there is a lot of variation. My wife likes receiving oral to get things started, but doesn't like to orgasm that way (despite my offers). 

As always, communication is key.





billgour said:


> I know I have brought up this theme before, but I think it ears repeating. Sex, in my mind, is far too focused on PIV sex. Women often don't orgasm, while the man might last just a little while before ejaculating. Cunnilingus, on the other hand, can last as long as you want it to. In fact, cunnilingus, not PIV, should be THE central act, in my opinion anyway.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Watching me do that would be pretty boring. Not a lot going on but a very well placed toy that doesn't move that much. What I want him to do vs. what I can do myself are pretty different.
> 
> It's still important to know how you work and masturbate alone but
> for me at least there's not a lot to learn from it.
> ...


Yes. You communicated this better than I did. Same here. Watching me MB (which he's done) doesn't really show much. Plus...it's a bit hard to take notes because he gets pretty caught up in the moment himself. 

I have explained to him early on what you mentioned here...if I move, you don't move. 

There are just certain positions where for me it's like...Nothing. not hitting anything good at all. Any variation of me on top or missionary does nothing for me. Those are some of his favorites though, so that's kind of sad. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Well, my XWW always had at least 2 to 3 O's for every one of mine. I always made sure her moments a priority. She would occasionally O from PIV but her favorite was oral. Spending over an hour going down on her was not uncommon. There were many times when my tongue was really sore the next day. Honestly, I loved every minute of it. She wasn't into returning the favor but I was fine with that, BJ's aren't really my favorite anyway. Of course all of that was before she started cheating


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Watching me do that would be pretty boring. Not a lot going on but a very well placed toy that doesn't move that much. What I want him to do vs. what I can do myself are pretty different.
> 
> It's still important to know how you work and masturbate alone but
> for me at least there's not a lot to learn from it.
> ...


Well I disagree strongly.

Further I'd want to watch you without a toy but instead using your hands. It's pointless to stare at you using a vibrator.

Many women poo poo this at first because they are shy but I assure one he understands your techniques it help tremendously.

Words are sometimes not enough. Some women are poor communicators. Some also don't even know their own bodies without using objects.

I will concede that's being able to read body language is very important for controlling pace. I've watched many women masturbate and the variation is remarkable. 

Getting some women off is like trying to guess the combination of a gym locker. It's a easier to do it when you can watch them enter the combination first.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, I have the biggest orgasm gap of all. She's still at zero after 9 years together. At times, this fact makes me utterly miserable and at other times - insecure. I understand it's my problem but getting over it is sometimes feels like 2 steps ahead then 1 step backwards...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Well, I have the biggest orgasm gap of all. She's still at zero after 9 years together. At times, this fact makes me utterly miserable and at other times - insecure. I understand it's my problem but getting over it is sometimes feels like 2 steps ahead then 1 step backwards...


What does SHE think of her lack of O?

If she is not concerned, my opinion is that you should not be either. 

Would you rather she faked it? 

Because I did, for many years, to save my partners from the feelings that you struggle with. I just didn't want to be questioned about why I wasn't getting there when I didn't know how to instruct them to help me. I didn't want to deal with their potential feelings of inadequacy. 

Of course that did not help me get an O, or try to learn anything at all about what works for me at all. I cheated myself out of that exploring time because I was too afraid of the *feelings* of frustration and insecurity. 

I can imagine it's no fun to be the guy when your wife can't get off, but I wouldn't take it personally at all. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> Well I disagree strongly.
> 
> Further I'd want to watch you without a toy but instead using your hands. It's pointless to stare at you using a vibrator.
> 
> ...


Hands aren't any funner. I don't do any inside vaginal stuff when I M. It's all clitoral, that's all I care about. 3-5 minutes of rubbing. That's what he already does, that's what I _don't_ want him to do. If I wanted that, I'd do it my [email protected] self. I want the journey with him. I don't bother with the journey when I am on my own. It's for a quick O, that's it. I want slow, sensual eventually building to an I with him. Bodies touching, kissing. 

H would want to watch me inserting, doing more touching. Doing it for him would be like the porn, putting on a show. 

I enjoy it when he uses his fingers inside, not when I do. I want him to kiss my entire body up and down, can't do that myself, I want him to tease me and wait until I'm practically begging him to touch me.

There's nothing he could learn from watching me M other than how to get me off quick and efficiently but that's not very fun when you're actually having sex.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
A really good point! Lovemaking is NOT trying to get off as fast as you can. Duplicating masturbation completely misses the point. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Hands aren't any funner. I don't do any inside vaginal stuff when I M. It's all clitoral, that's all I care about. 3-5 minutes of rubbing. That's what he already does, that's what I _don't_ want him to do. If I wanted that, I'd do it my [email protected] self. I want the journey with him.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

I struggle alot with sex and O's. A lot of the problem lies within me. I do have a history of sexual abuse and rape, but I have a hugely difficult time getting what I need from a partner. I have been married 20 years, maybe have had an "O" five times in 20 years with my husband. I can't say it is not his fault, it is a shared fault emotionally (disagreements or frustration, being overwhelmed by the days events), but sexually speaking it is not his fault. 


Some of the best advice I received from my T was to watch Porn. I know that is not the average recommendation from a T. But any way.... my T told me to watch porn if I felt comfortable doing that. She told me to watch something female friendly. Her suggestion was Dane Jones Tube. I tried it, not expecting to like what I saw. It has made the hugest difference in our sex life. They actually showed how people who love each other or at least like each other very VERY much have sex. They don't hurt each other or force each other to do anything. No one has to say stop, or NO. To see with my own eyes what people should do was amazing. I also saw something that I didn't realize was ok. It is of for a woman to touch herself during sex. It is ok for the woman to take control of the situation and pursue what she needs to make her happy. I had no idea. I am 40. I had no idea that was ok. 

Sex was dirty and nasty and wrong. And to touch your self was even worse. But to put those two wrongs together in a bedroom, I would have never imagined it would have equaled a right. 

The relevance in this post on this thread is that we hold our own selves back sometimes. It is sad that someone didn't tell us as a woman that sex was a good thing and not a dirty nasty thing. And that taking care of your own needs during sex is like taking care of your own needs when you eat a meal. If you are still hungry go back from more. If you are full but want desert, then have it. IF you are done and are satisfied then mission accomplished.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Hands aren't any funner. I don't do any inside vaginal stuff when I M. It's all clitoral, that's all I care about. 3-5 minutes of rubbing. That's what he already does, that's what I _don't_ want him to do. If I wanted that, I'd do it my [email protected] self. I want the journey with him. I don't bother with the journey when I am on my own. It's for a quick O, that's it. I want slow, sensual eventually building to an I with him. Bodies touching, kissing.
> 
> H would want to watch me inserting, doing more touching. Doing it for him would be like the porn, putting on a show.
> 
> ...


I give up lol. "I want to orgasm but it has to be this way and not that way and at this pace or I could do that myself but I won't cause it's like porn."

Best of luck to you. No offense but I'd have moved on to the next girl. Plenty girls are easy enough to get off that don't require the hokey pokey.

Wanting to cum I completely understand, makes sense. Requiring nuclear launch codes to do so? Pass.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Question: to what extent do people believe the statement:

"You are responsible for your own orgasm"?

If someone told you they just lay there like a sack of potatoes, never communicate, demonstrate or investigate, and when asked what they want or need either shrug or reply "you should just know", would you feel much sympathy?

I have one friend whose wife bemoans the fact she rarely orgasms and so gets nothing out of sex. She won't let him use his fingers on her or perform oral on her and finds the idea of toys abhorrent. She can't/won't work with him, tell him what she wants/needs and limits him to trying PIV, hoping that this time it will work when it never has before.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> Question: to what extent do people believe the statement:
> 
> "You are responsible for your own orgasm"?


LOVE the question!

Answer: Personally, a strong believer.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> I give up lol. "I want to orgasm but it has to be this way and not that way and at this pace or I could do that myself but I won't cause it's like porn."
> 
> Best of luck to you. No offense but I'd have moved on to the next girl. Plenty girls are easy enough to get off that don't require the hokey pokey.
> 
> Wanting to cum I completely understand, makes sense. Requiring nuclear launch codes to do so? Pass.


And that's fine if you're with a woman who just wants to have an orgasm, but that in itself does NOT make it good sex. Good sex includes everything before it. If I'm ever single I would pass on any man who wanted to cut to the O and skip the foreplay and building up to it. 
That's where the fun is and many women want a man who will take his time, build things up, stimulate her whole body. You may find girls who can get off easy, it might be harder to find ones who are ok with just that. 

As for 
"You are responsible for your own orgasm"?

Not unless you're doing it on your own. 
You're responsible to communicate and help make it happen but it's your partners responsibility to make the effort to do it.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

"I really hope you weren't doing that while she was wayward."

No...thank God!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I guess I am really not the norm.. even though I would call myself somewhat repressed sexually in our beginning years.. (in feeling BJ's were too "Pornish" , not comfortable with his going down on me... we didn't even talk about sex.. but we were very hands on, even if the lights were out most of the time.... 

I never felt guilty- (not a tinge) for wanting my own orgasm.. such a thought would never even occur to me...it was obvious we both reveled in the physical pleasure.. and both of us *wanted* satisfied.. 

I would make an awful fuss if I he didn't care about my orgasm [email protected]# 

I would never hook up with some random man.. the idea of this is repulsive to me.. in this way.. you surely can't expect anything ....these men don't know our bodies.... there is nothing "connecting" or caring about these encounters at all.. and obviously the woman gets the sorry end of the stick.. 

Taken from the article....



> Elizabeth Armstrong and her colleagues conclude that women’s orgasm rates are strongly related to her evolving relationship with her partner, the activities they include, and his investment in her pleasure. Qualitative research on men’s motivations confirm the last piece. “I’m all about making her orgasm,” said a man interviewed for their study. “The general her or like the specific her?” he was asked. “Girlfriend her,” he responded, “In a hookup her, I don’t give a ****.”
> 
> Women know the difference. Said one: "When I... meet somebody and I’m gonna have a random hookup... from what I have seen, they’re not even trying to, you know, make it a mutual thing."
> 
> Expecting an orgasm from a male hookup partner is even seen as demanding and rude. One woman explained how she felt like she didn’t have the “right” to ask for an orgasm: "I didn’t feel comfortable I guess. I don’t know. I think I felt kind of guilty almost, like I felt like I was kind of subjecting [guys] to something they didn’t want to do and I felt bad about it."


I really feel too many encounters like this can taint a woman's view of sex..(and the man too- he gets uses to plunging & not worrying about a woman's pleasure).... in the course of experiences like this.. she may decide she HATES certain acts --all due to the jack*ss she was with.. she may never want to try it again... whereas if she was with someone who treated her with love & care , mutual respect... she may feel very differently about those same acts.... 

I had a graph on this from my orgasm thread...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> I give up lol. "I want to orgasm but it has to be this way and not that way and at this pace or I could do that myself but I won't cause it's like porn."
> 
> Best of luck to you. No offense but I'd have moved on to the next girl. Plenty girls are easy enough to get off that don't require the hokey pokey.
> 
> Wanting to cum I completely understand, makes sense. Requiring nuclear launch codes to do so? Pass.


And this is why I never sought an O for myself. Worried about a reaction like yours. Calling it nuclear launch codes - it DOES feel that way to me sometimes. I loathe being a pain in the @ss and have never found a way to be "easy" in this department. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Best of luck to you. No offense but I'd have moved on to the next girl. Plenty girls are easy enough to get off that don't require the hokey pokey.
> 
> Wanting to cum I completely understand, makes sense. Requiring nuclear launch codes to do so? Pass.


Some people care about what their partner needs. Some people don't.

Those that don't should just be avoided.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

kag123 said:


> And this is why I never sought an O for myself. Worried about a reaction like yours. Calling it nuclear launch codes - it DOES feel that way to me sometimes. I loathe being a pain in the @ss and have never found a way to be "easy" in this department.


A man who can't be arsed to look out for his partner isn't worth it.

Please don't keep thinking of yourself as broken. It's self defeating in more ways than one, and you are NOT broken because you find it more difficult than some to reach orgasm.

A man who can't be arsed to look out for his partner is the one who is broken, IMHO.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

kag123 said:


> And this is why I never sought an O for myself. Worried about a reaction like yours. Calling it nuclear launch codes - it DOES feel that way to me sometimes. I loathe being a pain in the @ss and have never found a way to be "easy" in this department.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I really wouldn't worry about opinions like these. 

This is how my H used to be, still is in some ways, I had to show him articles and facts about yes, most women do not O with PIV. Yes, most women need foreplay. Yes, most women take longer than 5 or so minutes. No, an orgasm doesn't mean the sex was good, or even that the orgasm was good.... 

He used to say I was a lot more difficult than anyone else he had been with. IMO a good number of them were most likely pretty good actresses and while he knows the basics of how to get a woman off, he doesn't know _good _sex.
Let's face it, none of them stuck around. 
Wham/bam sex might be fun for a couple of dates, not so much for your spouse.

Your husband isn't one of these guys, I'm sure he'll love the excitement of trying new things and new ways to make sure you're both pleased and not think it's an inconvenience.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I am happy with any and all information my wife gives me that will let me do nicer things for her in bed. 





kag123 said:


> And this is why I never sought an O for myself. Worried about a reaction like yours. Calling it nuclear launch codes - it DOES feel that way to me sometimes. I loathe being a pain in the @ss and have never found a way to be "easy" in this department.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Sawney Beane said:


> Question: to what extent do people believe the statement:
> 
> "You are responsible for your own orgasm"?


Yes and no. You are responsible to communicate and co-operate. It is a two person gig (presumably) so neither is 100% responsible, and neither can lie there and expect the other to read their mind. Both should make suggestions, take detours and be prepared to go a little out of their comfort zone at least once, or say stop.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

NotEasy said:


> Yes and no. You are responsible to communicate and co-operate. It is a two person gig (presumably) so neither is 100% responsible, and neither can lie there and expect the other to read their mind. Both should make suggestions, take detours and be prepared to go a little out of their comfort zone at least once, or say stop.


That then leaves three causes for an "orgasm gap":

1 Somebody with issues leaving them unable or nearly unable to orgasm but providing plenty for their partner;

2 People who have been told but cannot/will not follow instructions/advice;

3 People who refuse to communicate instructions advice to their partner.

I would think 1) is a small group within the context of the issue.

In 2) there will be a small number of people who lack the dexterity/coordination to be able to effectively follow those instructions.

The rest of 2) and all of 3) are people who are actively contributing to the issue.

So the question becomes "At what point do you stop being responsible for trying to teaching those who do not want to learn"?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I 100% think each person is accountable for their own orgasm. 

And yet each person should value the others almost to the detriment of their own. 

I will never reverse engineer a woman's lady bits or sexual response without a map, some patience, flexibility, and a lot of humour. Because news flash - you're all different. Not just between each other, but with yourself depending on where you're at in life, in your cycle, or in your mood that day. Men I think are more simple. 

Women that don't offer those things have never interested me long term.

For women that do offer those things, though, you'll find that I'll gladly spelunk and explore until we're both exhausted and happy - as long as we enjoy and laugh at the dead ends, too. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> Question: to what extent do people believe the statement:
> 
> "You are responsible for your own orgasm"?


I'm responsible for my own orgasm quite often.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I've read a few posts in this thread and wanted to make a few comments.

Orgasms do not independently happen within the context of partnered sex. They are interdependent. Some of me, some of you, some of me, some of you, and so on and so on and so forth. How many times that 'and so on and so on' must happen is an individual thing. A man is going to have to put in more effort to get his female partner to climax than a woman's effort into getting a man to climax. Therefore the person responsible is the person who wants that climax to happen, male or female.

However, women have been socialized to never ever be sexually aggressive and advocating for our own pleasure "feels" like sexual aggression.

However, women MUST come to realize the difference between self advocacy and aggression. Learning to assert ourselves within all frames of life is something all women must learn. Therefore a woman who remains timid and sexually silent yet yearns for sexual fulfillment should begin by looking in the mirror and practicing their assertiveness training. We cannot hide behind our repressed upbringing our whole lives. At some point we've got to say that was then, this is now and this now is what I want.

At what point do you stop being responsible for trying to teach those who do not want to learn?
That answer is far too complicated with far too many variables to answer. But if your wife doesn't want to orgasm, you should stop trying to get her to orgasm. Some women are not very attached to their own orgasms and get total fulfillment from the intense intimacy involved in sex.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read a few posts in this thread and wanted to make a few comments.
> 
> Orgasms do not independently happen within the context of partnered sex. They are interdependent. Some of me, some of you, some of me, some of you, and so on and so on and so forth. How many times that 'and so on and so on' must happen is an individual thing. A man is going to have to put in more effort to get his female partner to climax than a woman's effort into getting a man to climax. Therefore the person responsible is the person who wants that climax to happen, male or female.
> 
> ...












Welcome back, AP.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I honestly don't see the point in being in an intimate relationship with someone who doesn't value your pleasure.

Of course many people get into relationships very early, before they really understand what good sex is.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I honestly don't see the point in being in an intimate relationship with someone who doesn't value your pleasure.
> 
> Of course many people get into relationships very early, before they really understand what good sex is.


True in most circumstances. But playing devil's advocate, what about when your partner's pleasure causes you unwanted physical or emotional pain?

Doobie is a good case study in this.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
fair enough. I guess I should have said something more on the lines of being with someone with whom intimacy brings mutual pleasure.



Fozzy said:


> True in most circumstances. But playing devil's advocate, what about when your partner's pleasure causes you unwanted physical or emotional pain?
> 
> Doobie is a good case study in this.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read a few posts in this thread and wanted to make a few comments.
> 
> Orgasms do not independently happen within the context of partnered sex. They are interdependent. Some of me, some of you, some of me, some of you, and so on and so on and so forth. How many times that 'and so on and so on' must happen is an individual thing. A man is going to have to put in more effort to get his female partner to climax than a woman's effort into getting a man to climax. Therefore the person responsible is the person who wants that climax to happen, male or female.


A woman can turn up, lay motionless and the man orgasms. The old "I turned up" trope when asked "what do you bring to our sex life". She can "get him to climax" simply by laying there. In this scenario, if he wants to orgasm, he gets himself off, if she wants an orgasm, he has to act. He is responsible for BOTH orgasms.




> Some women are not very attached to their own orgasms and get total fulfillment from the intense intimacy involved in sex.


In which case, there would be no "orgasm gap". But there is. So...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
wouldn't work for me (I'm male). 
I would have absolutely zero interest in sex with any woman who just laid there. Whats the point - at least my hand would have some interest in what is going on.

I am very happy to put a lot of effort into my partner's pleasure, but I expect the same in return.




Sawney Beane said:


> A woman can turn up, lay motionless and the man orgasms. The old "I turned up" trope when asked "what do you bring to our sex life". She can "get him to climax" simply by laying there. In this scenario, if he wants to orgasm, he gets himself off, if she wants an orgasm, he has to act. He is responsible for BOTH orgasms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read a few posts in this thread and wanted to make a few comments.
> 
> Orgasms do not independently happen within the context of partnered sex. They are interdependent. Some of me, some of you, some of me, some of you, and so on and so on and so forth. How many times that 'and so on and so on' must happen is an individual thing. A man is going to have to put in more effort to get his female partner to climax than a woman's effort into getting a man to climax. Therefore the person responsible is the person who wants that climax to happen, male or female.
> 
> ...



Very true words you have spoken, but very difficult to change. So much easier said then done. I almost feel it is to late for me to take a "In charge" attitude about sex, or many other things. That is just not in my personality type. All I can do is raise my daughter not to have the mind set as I do. The buck needs to stop here.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read a few posts in this thread and wanted to make a few comments.
> 
> Orgasms do not independently happen within the context of partnered sex. They are interdependent. Some of me, some of you, some of me, some of you, and so on and so on and so forth. How many times that 'and so on and so on' must happen is an individual thing. A man is going to have to put in more effort to get his female partner to climax than a woman's effort into getting a man to climax. Therefore the person responsible is the person who wants that climax to happen, male or female.
> 
> ...


Speaking only for myself:

I think my problem was that I expected the level of effort put forth to get a female to O, should be the same as the level of effort I put forth to get the man to that point. As a woman it was never that hard to get the man there. I did more than just "show up", and I got rewarded for my efforts easily and reliably, building my own confidence in the bedroom. 

The men I have been with, despite finding pleasure in helping me along, have also shown that they are a bit fragile and that if I don't get there at some point, they feel they have failed. I don't blame them because I imagine I would feel the same way if put in that scenario. And that's a big hit to the ego and creates a lot of bad feelings for them. In turn I feel bad - for not being able to reward them for their efforts. I can't force my body to produce the O. I faked for this reason. To make sure sex continued to be a pleasant and stress free environment. I played out the worst case scenario in my head, sure letting this guy try to figure out the puzzle would be fun at first. What if everything he tried didn't work? Eventually it would move from fun to frustrating. Then frustrating to what...? Despair? Defeat? I just decided the O wasn't worth all that. 

There's also my fear of being seen as not worth the effort. In my dating days this was a prevalent idea by the men. I was a guys girl and the majority of my friends were male so I heard a lot of the talk and knew what men said they wanted. I don't fear this so much now that I am married - but this thread proves there are still adult men who continue to feel that way. 

I really thought until maybe age 25 or so, that I was unique for having this problem. I never told anyone about it - who wants to raise their hand and volunteer that you're having problems with this? Especially when all of my friends and relationships seemed to impress upon me that sex is always supposed to be amazing and mind blowing. I didn't want to be judged. I didn't want any rumors going around about me. I truly felt broken. 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

kag123 said:


> And this is why I never sought an O for myself. Worried about a reaction like yours. Calling it nuclear launch codes - it DOES feel that way to me sometimes. I loathe being a pain in the @ss and have never found a way to be "easy" in this department.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


OP I don't put you in the same boat as them and you shouldn't either. You just want to get from A to B, you're not demanding a Ferrari to do so.

I honestly feel like your issue is mostly mental. I see it in a lot of women. I think you should spend ALOT of time masturbating at first alone then eventually with your partner. 

EXPLORE your body inside and out. Every inch of it. Practice clearing your mind and being fully immerse into the stimuli then the orgasm. Do you best to release your inhibits. 

Hell maybe even video tape your self and critique it after. Once you get past this mental stigma you have it will be like putting down a sack of bricks. 

Learn yourself first then teach your partner. That's my advice, good luck to you.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Speaking only for myself:
> 
> I think my problem was that I expected the level of effort put forth to get a female to O, should be the same as the level of effort I put forth to get the man to that point. As a woman it was never that hard to get the man there. I did more than just "show up", and I got rewarded for my efforts easily and reliably, building my own confidence in the bedroom.
> 
> The men I have been with, despite finding pleasure in helping me along, have also shown that they are a bit fragile and that if I don't get there at some point, they feel they have failed. I don't blame them because I imagine I would feel the same way if put in that scenario. And that's a big hit to the ego and creates a lot of bad feelings for them. In turn I feel bad - for not being able to reward them for their efforts. I can't force my body to produce the O. I faked for this reason.


It is often assumed that men never have problems with O, all they need is a hole or a hand and about 5 minutes. But this isn't always true.

My SO, for example, has ED, and sometimes getting him to O requires every trick up my sleeve. And while he has, on occasion, given up because it just ain't happening, he has never faked it or felt that his pleasure wasn't worth it.

As it should be, IMHO.

And TBH I did feel like a failure at first, when I couldn't make it happen. But I also got over it, and now have waaay more tricks up my sleeve.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

The modern feminist answer to this is to simply erase all male orgasms. There, now everyone is equal.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Big Mama said:


> Very true words you have spoken, but very difficult to change. So much easier said then done. I almost feel it is to late for me to take a "In charge" attitude about sex, or many other things. That is just not in my personality type. All I can do is raise my daughter not to have the mind set as I do. The buck needs to stop here.


Big Mama, I encourage you to learn, as in truly study, the difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness. As you raise your daughter to take responsibility for her self and own her sexuality, you also will learn to do the same. Children learn in various ways but are most influenced by the attitudes and behaviors found in their home.

If you need your man to start warming you up for sex the day before in order for your brain to be fully engaged so your body is fully engaged, then that's what needs to happen.

And I suggest that once you can reliably get your brain and body fully engaged it gets easier and easier to coordinate both on shorter notice. But none of this will happen until you learn to speak the recipe or ask for help in finding the recipe.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> A woman can turn up, lay motionless and the man orgasms. The old "I turned up" trope when asked "what do you bring to our sex life". She can "get him to climax" simply by laying there. In this scenario, if he wants to orgasm, he gets himself off, if she wants an orgasm, he has to act. He is responsible for BOTH orgasms.


This is over simplified but not far from accurate for most men. 

Are you familiar with how the brain learns? As boys mature and they experience erections which means they also experience masturbation. Each time they masturbate to ejaculation they are teaching their brain the correct pathway to follow to achieve climax. Within a short period of time, a boy has a "well trod" mind/body pathway and it takes very little stimulation in order to achieve climax. The hormonal influence teen boys suffer practically ensures that the male can deposit his seed with quick efficiency. 

Girls do not experience anything like this. Secondly, because a girls clitoris is so hidden, early masturbation consists of rubbing the general area without ever connecting that they are stimulating the clitoris. In fact, clitoris is not even a vocabulary word used in sex ed. Boys have a penis and scrotum, girls have a vagina. Since girls aren't rubbing inside their vagina during masturbation, contrary to porn (fvcking idiots who make porn really need to get more things right) and they have no word for the area of the body that they are stimulating, they aren't making a direct neural pathway. Third, girls are strongly encouraged to never touch themselves except to clean. Unlike boys, girls body's don't have obvious physical signs of sexual excitation and so a girl who feels sexual excitation learns to inhibit that response because only wh0res do that.

So boys are socialized to create a neural superhighway to climax while girls have a very convoluted and even disjointed neural pathway to climax. Unless a girl has been blessed with a supercharged sexual response (notice the word response) there will be socialized gate keepers that have to be removed in order for her to get there.





> In which case, there would be no "orgasm gap". But there is. So...


If a woman isn't attached to having an orgasm, there is no gap.

Case in point: during menopause it is common for women to loose the ability to orgasm, temporarily. Happened to me, oh horror of horrors. During sex I could tell that my body simply wasn't going to cooperate so my orgasm was off the menu and we focused on his. To continue to try to get me to orgasm would have not been welcome. Other times I wanted to try for an orgasm and we experimented and found new ways to get me there...because I WANTED to get there. To not try to get me there because it was more tricky, took more effort, would have created an orgasm gap.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
If there are any actively bisexual women or men here, I'm interested in their experience with partners. Do you find that it is more difficult for your female partners to orgasm than your male ones?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Speaking only for myself:
> 
> I think my problem was that I expected the level of effort put forth to get a female to O, should be the same as the level of effort I put forth to get the man to that point. As a woman it was never that hard to get the man there. I did more than just "show up", and I got rewarded for my efforts easily and reliably, building my own confidence in the bedroom.
> 
> The men I have been with, despite finding pleasure in helping me along, have also shown that they are a bit fragile and that if I don't get there at some point, they feel they have failed.


This fragility attributed to men is an attitude of enabling. Everyone has a measure of fragility and we all must face our own failures, at school, at work, and even social failures. Shielding people from their failures is a disservice to them. Pretending he was just awesome when he was not is a terrible thing to do to him. How can any man ever learn how to pleasure a woman if every woman he is with pretends that his fumbling is awesome? 

You must throw away the attitude that men have fragile egos that must be protected. Men are a hell of a lot stronger than they are credited. Most men really WANT their partner to enjoy sex as much as they do but if he has never had a woman be honest with him how can he ever learn what makes her scream?







> I don't blame them because I imagine I would feel the same way if put in that scenario. And that's a big hit to the ego and creates a lot of bad feelings for them.


Then I suggest you get your husband to coach you through a blow job, giving you exact instructions and you only do exactly what he instructs. Doing this demonstrates to both of you how important honesty is, AND how important an attitude of enthusiastic learning is. Sex is give and take and if it is based on dishonest ego protecting it will absolutely be bad sex. 





> In turn I feel bad - for not being able to reward them for their efforts. I can't force my body to produce the O. I faked for this reason.


I think most women initially faked orgasms. Which is why so many men are surprised to find that what they learned about sex via porn is so so so wrong.

You should feel bad for being dishonest during sex, not for failing to respond to something that doesn't work for you.




> There's also my fear of being seen as not worth the effort. In my dating days this was a prevalent idea by the men. I was a guys girl and the majority of my friends were male so I heard a lot of the talk and knew what men said they wanted. I don't fear this so much now that I am married - but this thread proves there are still adult men who continue to feel that way.


*If you suspect your man thinks you're not worth the effort, you shouldn't be having sex with that man. It's as simple as that. Married to this man or not, if you get the feeling he doesn't think you're worth the effort in helping you orgasm, then he is not worth your sexual frustration*.



> I really thought until maybe age 25 or so, that I was unique for having this problem. I never told anyone about it - who wants to raise their hand and volunteer that you're having problems with this? Especially when all of my friends and relationships seemed to impress upon me that sex is always supposed to be amazing and mind blowing. I didn't want to be judged. I didn't want any rumors going around about me. I truly felt broken.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



A lot of women had the same experience. What you describe is not uncommon.

Where you are now is the place where you examin the wrongness of your old attitude about your pleasure vs his pleasure, about your sexual needs vs his fragility.

Where you will end up is a place in which honesty reigns supreme, and orgasms abound because you both know how to push the buttons in the right way.


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## SARAHMCD (Jul 2, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> This fragility attributed to men is an attitude of enabling. Everyone has a measure of fragility and we all must face our own failures, at school, at work, and even social failures. Shielding people from their failures is a disservice to them. Pretending he was just awesome when he was not is a terrible thing to do to him. How can any man ever learn how to pleasure a woman if every woman he is with pretends that his fumbling is awesome?
> 
> You must throw away the attitude that men have fragile egos that must be protected. Men are a hell of a lot stronger than they are credited. Most men really WANT their partner to enjoy sex as much as they do but if he has never had a woman be honest with him how can he ever learn what makes her scream?
> 
> ...


In theory I completely agree with you. But for women, this is not all physical. I've had new lovers ask how to get me there. What I have to tell them is its not as simple as Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 and BAM! Sure, I can say "I like when you move your hand this particular way" and give them a road map but that doesn't guarantee an orgasm. 

So I have had men get frustrated because they are doing everything I've told them to physically and yet still...nothing. Then they keep asking "what else can I do?" At this point, I am at a loss as to what to tell them. I give up and they are left frustrated, thinking I'm just not communicating to them. After all, for them, they could give me detailed instructions on a BJ and if I followed them correctly, they'd most certainly get there. 

It is much harder to have to describe to a guy that you need to be relaxed and in my case, dominated, in order to "get there". It is much more about getting in my head than a physical "touch me here" scenario. Describing what you need in this sense becomes much more complicated. And takes a lot of self-reflection and practice. 

Plus, what works with one man may not work with another. It depends on their personal style. So there we go, making it even more complicated. 

On another note, I think a lot of women fake it to keep the relationship. Its just easier. They want to be the girl that he thinks is amazing in bed. She's wild and multi-orgasmic!!! I've been there, done that. Its not to protect their egos, but rather, to make him think you're hot and keep coming back for more. This is what I used to do in my 20s and 30s. In retrospect, it was a disservice to them and myself.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> So boys are socialized to create a neural superhighway to climax while girls have a very convoluted and even disjointed neural pathway to climax. Unless a girl has been blessed with a supercharged sexual response (notice the word response) there will be socialized gate keepers that have to be removed in order for her to get there.


So, simplistically, he can learn, she can't. 




> If a woman isn't attached to having an orgasm, there is no gap.


Two things come to mind from this observation: it's a bit like saying that if one partner didn't have a higher sex drive there would be no mismatch of drives. True but unhelpful.

Second, anecdotal evidence (e.g. these forums) suggest a large number of women ARE attached to having an orgasm. Hence, a gap. What is your suggestion? Give up?


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Sawney Beane said:


> So, simplistically, he can learn, she can't.


She can learn. But for most of her early years, she'll be actively encouraged not to. Young girls masturbating is still very taboo. Many young people look to porn to teach them about sex, but porn is a ridiculous and inaccurate depiction of female sexuality. So she's being taught all of the wrong things, and not the right things. By the time she figures it out, she has years of bad habits and bad information to undo!

When I was 20 and struggling to reach O, most of the info I had access to said that some women never come. It didn't mention that they might just not come through PIV. So magazines and porn sent me (and the man I was married to) the message that if I couldn't come through PIV, I just wasn't getting there at all. 

We really need better sex ed, that covers pleasure and not just reproduction. I think I was sexually active for a year before I knew exactly where my clit was and how it worked. Nobody thought to teach me, and I didn't know enough about it to think of asking.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SARAHMCD said:


> In theory I completely agree with you. But for women, this is not all physical. I've had new lovers ask how to get me there. What I have to tell them is its not as simple as Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 and BAM! Sure, I can say "I like when you move your hand this particular way" and give them a road map but that doesn't guarantee an orgasm.
> 
> So I have had men get frustrated because they are doing everything I've told them to physically and yet still...nothing. Then they keep asking "what else can I do?" At this point, I am at a loss as to what to tell them. I give up and they are left frustrated, thinking I'm just not communicating to them. After all, for them, they could give me detailed instructions on a BJ and if I followed them correctly, they'd most certainly get there.
> 
> ...


This is my experience also. 

The target to get to O is always moving, dependent upon SO many factors. Where I am in my cycle, what's going through my head, how I'm physically feeling that day, etc. I don't even know where to begin to give instructions! During the actual act I can (and do) give direction where needed, but that is all based on feelings in that moment and there is no way to extrapolate that data as a map that could be reused at every encounter. 

Again - I do not blame the man for any of that. 

My feeling has always been it's just me. I internalize being a poor communicator because I can't sieve out concrete instructions to give my partner that will get me there reliably. And that I'm just difficult and/or complicated for having so many outside factors that have an impact on my ability to O. 

Unless my H is really sick - vomiting or hospitalized - or passed out drunk - he can pretty much show up and O within 5 minutes. Regardless of any other factors. 

I will say that how turned on I am BEFORE clothes come off is a big factor for success of O in an encounter. I guess that's common sense. Most times I feel that I am showing up to the bed at a zero and my husband is showing up at a five. (If you could imagine a scale of desire from 1-10.) He doesn't need anything to get himself to a five before we begin. I struggle to get it going. I don't know what to tell him to do to get me to more than a zero before we start, or if that's even his responsibility.

I think it's testosterone. If I could take a pill and show up at a five every time, I'd do it in a heart beat. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Full disclosure: I can't remember if I've already added this on this thread, but I suffer from anxiety and I am under treatment for it. I take medication. 

The medication helps slow my racing mind, which does help in the area of "What's going through my head" as it relates to being able to prime for sex. However, it is a double edged sword...as common knowledge is that these meds dampen the sex drive and response. 

Still. I am a better person medicated than not. It's not perfect and I still have break through symptoms but I am able to focus better and find the mind racing, while still present, to be much less invasive and detrimental. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Relevant article about how women reach orgasm:

https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-1-way-to-reach-orgasm-1340990431887414.html


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## SARAHMCD (Jul 2, 2014)

MBH, great article.
OP, you and I seem to have a lot in common. My story is worse than yours though. Sexually active since I was 17; I didn't have my first orgasm until I was 32. I had no clue what it even was or could possibly feel like. Strangely enough I have always been HD. I've yet to have a LTR that could keep up with me. Perhaps it was because I was never satisfied that I kept trying. I don't know. So you are well ahead of me!!
Now I find that I have to be very relaxed and not feel pressured by him or myself. Being dominated in bed personally helps me because he takes charge and I don't have to think, I just follow instructions with someone I trust to put my pleasure first. This allows me to let go. However, this is difficult to teach someone who doesn't already have the proclivity or need to be in control.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> Relevant article about how women reach orgasm:
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-1-way-to-reach-orgasm-1340990431887414.html


This article definitely resonated with me. Letting go of that self-awareness is something I've been working on lately. My XH had a porn addiction, and I often felt that I was expected to put on a performance for him, like the girls he watched online. It made it difficult for me to enjoy sex, when I worried about how I looked, how I sounded, etc. 

I'm in my first serious relationship since the divorce, and I'm really working on closing the orgasm gap (and BF is happy to work with me, lol). I've been having to make a really conscious effort to let go and just be in the moment, and it makes it easier for me to get there. Since combining my efforts with a man who treats me like a woman and not a toy, I've got a roughly 50% orgasm rate right now. With XH, it was two orgasms in ten years (while having sex twice a week).


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