# So apparently I have a problem judging what "initiating sex" is



## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Recently, my wife has accused me of only thinking about sex. She thinks that she can't just kiss me (not talking a peck) or cuddle up with me without it leading to sex.

I have posted in another thread about my experiement with "love detox" after discovering that I have been overloving my wife. Long story short, I have not initiated sex (at least I don't think so...you'll see) or given her any affection without her initiating it first for a few weeks now.

So here's the deal. This is what made her accuse me in the first place. We climbed into bed together, we were face to face. She puts her hand on my cheek and pulls my face in to kiss me. I think she is initiating sex so I start letting my hands wander...definitely not moving too fast, but none the less, my intentions become apparent. Then I notice her shut down. We stop kissing. She says "is that all you think about? I don't even feel like I can kiss you without leading to sex..." REALLY?! What was I supposed to think?! What if she had wanted sex and I assumed she was just kissing me. I'm sure she wouldve felt rejected that I wasn't interested if i had done nothing...can't win...

Another thing, many nights I go to bed before her. Something she does that I thouroughly enjoy is sometimes when she comes in she will be naked, straddle me while I'm sleeping and wake me up to some obvious sexual advances. It's amazing, you're in a weird state of mind from having been asleep and it seems to be really intense...anyway, she does this from time to time. Well recently, I went to sleep as usual, and she comes in. I guess she was wearing a thong, (She usually just sleeps in underwear, no top) and she manuvered herself into little spoon position. I remember feeling bare skin on my thighs. I though she was initiating sex, and my half-asleep, now very excited body responded and I began making advances, kissing her back and neck and letting my hands wander.Then she pulls away and I can tell she is upset. The next day she says "all i wanted to do is cuddle, but I guess I cant even do that now without you thinking its going to lead to sex. This was in the middle of my "love detox" so, not only did I appear to initiate it, but I also got denied...so that was a failure...

Then a couple of nights ago, a very similar thing happened, and this time she responded immediately seemingly very interested. Had very passionate sex. I thought it was amazing, and I know she enjoyed it as well. The next morning, same thing, all she was thinking about was cuddling...

So now I feel like I have no idea whether she is making an advance or not. I feel like I can't initiate it at all because now I'm tagged as that is all i think about. Early in our relationship, we did kiss a lot more. But once we became sexually active, kissing did evolve into foreplay and almost always led to sex. I would love if we started kissing more, but now I feel like i never know when it would "be right" to go beyond. Anyone else have experience with increased intimacy _without_ sex? Is there some way of communicating, going as far as straight up telling them I just want to kiss (that seems weird), or what?


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't really have much of an answer here but am interested in the other replies you will receive.

My only thought would be (and this is strictly due to the "love detox" you mention) that until she is able to break the pattern of "that's all you think about" always assume kissing is just kissing. Let her take it _further_ to consider it "initiating."


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## Crypsys (Apr 22, 2010)

MrRomantic, just simply try cuddling and don't move it forward. No matter how much you "think" shes giving you the signals, don't initiate it. You seem to have not quite learned her cues, or she's not giving you cues. For now, just continue to cuddle and don't try and take it to the next level. For a while, it will be mismatched because you will feel like your having to give all of this attention with no return. But, it should get better as she feels more and more that you are getting the cuddling picture. Go into it NOT expecting sex and that will make it easier at first.

In this case I could see why should would be exasperated. She wants to know that the physical touch doesn't always lead to sex. I know as a guy what and why you are doing what your doing and I understand where you are coming from completely. But, you have to for now focus on what she thinks. 

I can pretty much guarantee that if you do handle it right, you both will be on the same page. For a while with me I had to go into the cuddling with my wife and many times it didn't go to full physical intimacy. I kept the physical touch up though and a few weeks later, blammo. We were in a spot of touch and go intimacy where it was once every 2 weeks at best a few months ago. Over the past couple of weeks we now are intimate pretty much every other day, a pretty big change!


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

When she brought that up, I did tell her basically, "what was I supposed to think?" I explained that I don't always understand whether she is interested or not and I would be totally cool if she flat out said, "can we just cuddle tonight?" That would be great, instead of her getting angry, then giving me the cold shoulder, me wondering what the heck is wrong and getting upset. I am totally cool with cuddling.

Ya, I guess I'm going to have to ramp up my love detox. Going to have to make herself throw herself at me before I move forward haha


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I would just bide your time. . .when she is 38 years old or older she will be crying,

"Don't you ever think about it?"


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## LadyOfTheHouse (Jul 9, 2010)

love detox sounds like a hideous idea. she's witholding sex, so you're going to REMEDY that by withholding affection? no.

she's withholding sex BECAUSE she feels she's not getting enough affection. is it fair? no. it gives wives a bad name. 

i'm not judging, because i've DONE this: don't initiate any physical affection and see how long it takes for her to get restless and frisky, right? FOR...EV...ER. that's how long it will take. because while you're keeping score and thinking, jeez, she's frigid, it's been 3 weeks and she hasn't made a single move! she's keeping score and thinking, he's an insensitive pig, he didn't even kiss me goodbye! plus, do you really want her to resort to you out of sheer biological necessity? we ladies would rather take matters into our own hands, wink-wink, than initiate sex with a man who doesn't appear to feel affection towards us.

this is an infuriating dynamic: when you guys were dating, physical affection, huggy-kissy stuff, pretty much ALWAYS led to sex, right? as it should!!! you know why? because at that time, your wife took for granted that you loved her...what were you doing differently then? 

display a little non-physical affection: sweet little gestures, notes, snickers bars, stuff like that. or do something impersonally physical--scratch her back or brush her hair or something. and be consistent w/ meeting her needs in other areas:
spend time with her doing something fun and relaxing. 
talk to her about something interesting.
compliment her on something non-performance related: not, "wow, the house looks super!" but, "I love how your mind works."
make her feel special and valued--when we feel like our husbands are crazy about us, we're more likely to get sexually expressive.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Lady of the House... I wish I could do what you are suggesting... and Mr Romantic should heed the advice. It is all just one big game. Im losing, my husband is winning bc he is the one that holds all the sex cards... typical woman (he is the woman and I am the man in our marriage). Mr Romantic, Im in your boat and I have stopped initiating period. I get turned down, called a sex fiend etc. My husband also rewards good behavior such as cleaning and making beds with giving me sex and if I dont, I dont get sex. The only solution is to not initiate and clean like its the end of the world.

LOTH, says to be affectionate tho bc of the keeping score thing. I think its true, even though u feel jilted bc of it... it seems to be the only way to getting the spouse to have more sex. You need to be more affectionate, I need to make more beds I am going to heed the same advice as you and we can check in with each other.

Scannerguard says she will be crying at 38... I say by 36... maybe I was an early hormonal bloomer:rofl:

Good luck with this, it is a minor problem in the whole scheme of available marriage problem options, so take pride in that.


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## LadyOfTheHouse (Jul 9, 2010)

toolate said:


> It is all just one big game. Im losing, my husband is winning bc he is the one that holds all the sex cards... typical woman (he is the woman and I am the man in our marriage). ... I get turned down, called a sex fiend etc. My husband also *rewards good behavior such as cleaning and making beds with giving me sex and if I dont, I dont get sex.* The only solution is to not initiate and clean like its the end of the world.


does h know you feel that that's what he's doing? you have GOT to tell him, love. he sounds like a tyrant and a jerk...but would you, smart self-respecting lady that you are, have MARRIED a tyrant? or do you believe that he acted charming while you were dating and then pulled the ol' bait-and-switch and showed his true tyrannical colors after the wedding? 

2Late, let's give him the benefit of the doubt: maybe your H isn't TRYING to pull some behavior-modification reward-and-punish bull****, maybe he can't relax and enjoy life if his home doesn't seem inviting. sounds like you already clean to death; light some candles. put a bowl of fruit on the table. lay out his slippers and pour him a drink. have something in the oven. if he can take for granted that coming home is the best part of his day, maybe he won't bring his disciplinarian attitude home with him.



toolate said:


> LOTH, says to be affectionate tho bc of the keeping score thing. I think its true, even though u feel jilted bc of it... it seems to be the only way to getting the spouse to have more sex. You need to be more affectionate, I need to make more beds I am going to heed the same advice as you and we can check in with each other.


give it a go--set aside your assumptions about WHY your spouses are behaving like jerks. in an impasse or mexican standoff, SOMEONE has to go first and break the moratorium already! it's more fun if you view it as a sociological experiment: Covert Be-Sweet Ops. Operation GitHerDone.

Best of luck to you both! keep us posted!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

MrRomantic said:


> So now I feel like I have no idea whether she is making an advance or not. I feel like I can't initiate it at all because now I'm tagged as that is all i think about.


First. What is wrong with having sex on your mind a lot as long as you are meeting her needs as well? That does not mean you have to HAVE sex all the time.

Have you considered just ASKING her? Telling her what you said here then say they looked like initiation to you. What does initiation look like to her?

[QUOTE}
Early in our relationship, we did kiss a lot more. But once we became sexually active, kissing did evolve into foreplay and almost always led to sex. I would love if we started kissing more, but now I feel like i never know when it would "be right" to go beyond. Anyone else have experience with increased intimacy _without_ sex? Is there some way of communicating, going as far as straight up telling them I just want to kiss (that seems weird), or what?[/QUOTE]

Again gonna recommend the book Passionate Marriage.

Passionate Marriage | PassionateMarriage


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Oh. My. God. I am beginning to think this forum is not very effective. To preface any of my posts, I think I am going to have to type up a complete history of my relationship. You all jump to conclusions and make assumptions about the entirety of our relationship based of off an isolated post. I dont blame you, of course you cannot know the whole story unless I tell it to you. But I dont think anyone is going to read my posts if i have to have pages of back story...so let me try to clarify...



LadyOfTheHouse said:


> love detox sounds like a hideous idea. she's witholding sex, so you're going to REMEDY that by withholding affection? no. she's withholding sex BECAUSE she feels she's not getting enough affection. is it fair? no. it gives wives a bad name.
> 
> A previous revelation (I can link the thread if you want) that my wife and I had is that I am over loving her. She was feeling trapped with me clinging onto her. I was doing too much. THE AMOUNT OF LOVE I WAS SHOWING HER WAS ITSELF A LOVE EXTINGUISHER. So to eliminate this love extinguisher, I am greatly reducing the love I show her. So yes, love detox is the solution in my case, and it has been working thus far, showing her MORE affection as you suggest, is not what she is looking for. She explicitly told me that when I clean the whole house, do all the grocery shopping, make all the meals she feels guilty and resents me for it (acts of service). We are together a lot, probably too much, so we need some more time to do our own things (quality time). She says she doesn't need flowers and doesn't really care about them. She also doesn't seem to care much about other little gifts I give her (receving gifts). I give her elaborate back massages (candles, oils, I have studied massage techniques), tried to hold her hand, give her kisses often, hug her, and she feels like I'm clinging onto her (physical touch). I compliment her often on her appearance and she rolls her eyes (and they just simple statements like you look beautiful in that dress, she rolls her eyes and says no i dont, my hair looks like crap or something) I also compliment her on the good job she is doing at work, but she doesnt think she is (words of affirmation). Some say that you cannot love too much, but i strongly disagree. She feels bombarded by love, trapped, and guilty because she doesn't show love herself much (see family upbringing below)
> 
> ...


post on my revelation of overloving: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../14309-how-can-i-teach-my-wife-what-love.html


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

toolate said:


> Good luck with this, it is a minor problem in the whole scheme of available marriage problem options, so take pride in that.


You clearly haven't seen my other threads...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/14284-i-think-my-wife-cheating-me-i-need-help.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/14943-so-now-i-have-evidence-ea-next.html


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Keep those "gateways" pure. If things like massages, kisses, cuddles, etc. always end up in sex then whenever they happen something in her head is going to say "he's trying to get in my pants," even if you're not. She may be used to rejecting you, so at some point when you start to get into the, the old feelings creep back in. 

If she starts getting hot or seemingly initiating, don't let her off the hook. Just remain cool and make her take it there if that's what she wants. Don't ever let her see you sweat. Sometimes you may want to even turn the tables on her. If in the middle kissing she goes to the "is that all you think about?" line, calmly say something slick like "You wish that's what I was thinking about. I'm just kissing," or "It's your loss," something along those lines. Be sure you say it playfully though and not mean spirited, but don't be afraid to put a little bit of "jerk" in it.


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## crazyhorselady (Jul 15, 2010)

I think you're both putting way too much pressure on yourselves to try to read each other's minds. So you misunderstood her kisses that day, big deal. This is not "freak out" worthy. Of course, it's her freaking out, not you, so that point isn't too helpful. Can you talk to her and basically say, "I'm clueless as to when you want sex or don't. Please don't be mad at me if I misunderstand. Maybe you could tell me when you want sex instead of making me guess." OK, don't word it quite like that, but that's the idea.

I do agree with the other statements about trying to be more affectionate - since that is what she keeps asking for.


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