# Stereotyping /Generalizing -Why we DO it - how to avoid hurting....what Inflames YOU?



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am having an awful time trying to lay this topic out.. before coming to this forum.. I never THOUGHT about these things.. still learning as I go... 

So often in posts here...if it isn't the grammar police, it may be the "Generalizing" police / someone is accused of "stereotyping"...just speaking out of our own experiences, the slip of a word...most of us are smart enough to not use "*ALL*" when speaking of another gender!....but are still corrected....we've offended ...

When this is taken too far.. I feel it renders us so  Politically correct we loose any flavor, leaving us near "walking on egg shells" with our words...

The Human race naturally "generalizes" (was reading a # of articles, this is the consensus at least 50% of the time anyway.. lengthy article but I feel this is the reality for most of us -IF we can admit it.... Where Bias Begins: The Truth About Stereotypes -Stereotyping is not limited to those who are biased. We all use stereotypes all the time. They are a kind of mental shortcut. 

For me, it's NEVER NEVER NEVER meant to speak there is no exceptions ....if we have to note, dissect every variation, every possible exception with our speech adding a







to every idea that comes forth in discussion.. we would be conversationally paralyzed!! 

Yrs ago, I read "*Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus*"..so many things the author said in his chapter on MEN were NOT TRUE of my husband - (he's never needed a cave, never cared about sports/ that whole competition thing....pages devoted to this.. sometimes people just DON'T fit the typical norms...but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed...articles written, experiences given/ books devoted to those who may fit that... it's all good! 












> According to Pamela Rutledge, the director of the Media Psychology Research Center ...she says Generalizations are neither good nor bad. Instead, they are "useful".
> 
> “Stereotyping is a way of processing information,” she said. “It’s a way to take something that’s not familiar and put it in your brain next to something that makes sense. People make mental models all the time, and the first one is usually inaccurate.”
> 
> ...


The problem comes when people assume that stereotypes are facts - stereotypes/generalizations only give good indications *of probabilities*, and as long as you're always aware of the possibility that this situation is an edge-case where the "general rule" doesn't apply, there's no harm in it.

In our touchy-feely, inclusive, non-discriminatory society it's become deeply un-trendy to stereotype or generalize. People feel that because stereotypes have been over-used, or used to excuse discrimination or bigotry, there must be something inherently wrong with stereotyping. This is itself stereotyping !

What people really disapprove of are:

** **Unfair generalizations* 
*** *People mistaking statistical guidelines for hard facts.*

What keeps stereotyping from prejudice...is being Open Minded...understand we are all multifaceted -regardless of the circles we hang in...take time to get to know people as individuals.. not automatically judging a book by it's "cover" or the label another slapped on ....







..and it helps to just







when we don't FEEL or see things through the same lenses..(we won't all choose a similar lifestyle, we will gravitate to like minded people where we feel accepted /understood )... the world is BIG & vast enough for us all, and our diversity. 

Just your thoughts on this complex issue.. 

Can you see HOW/ WHY people do this.. do you feel you are above this in your daily life / interactions / words when talking to others ??

When you hear the descriptions below ..is there no categorizing going on...what is relateable to You/ what is rebuffed ? are you always fair & Balanced...an open slate to invite someone new into your group.. It would be nice if the world worked like this.. but I sure do not see it... 



> CEO / blue collar worker.... conservative / liberal.... Alpha male / Beta male ...Mother in law/ Stay at Home Mother .... Gamer... sports enthusiast...Gym rat...Politician/ Lawyer / Preacher ... Feminist / Pick up artist / Traditionalist.... Bad Boy/ Nice Guy.... Christian / Atheist... low drive / high drive.... city dwellers / country folk ...Rappers.. the Kardashians /the Duggars , etc etc etc


 Your thoughts on this :FIREdevil: topic...Have you been hurt by unfair generalizations, wrongly stereotyped ...and it BURNS you? Let us listen and hopefully do better with our communication and understanding of our differences..


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A chipmunk, seeing the approach of a hawk, can instantly form rational opinions regarding the hawk's capabilities and likely intentions. Political correctness is an invitation for otherwise intelligent humans to function daily as if they have no previous experience on this planet.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I have a problems with stereotyping and generalization when they come from people too ignorant, stupid or malicious to understand that:

A. Exceptions are the rule
B. Even confirmed stereotypes are but one layer of a complex whole

As you mention if you're willing to go forth with an open mind, and a respect for the perspective of others, it's all good. Be willing to admit when you're wrong and acknowledge that no generalization tells a complete story, even if seemingly valid. We all generalize, but I don't believe any of us should be married to our generalizations. 

It's those people too narrow of focus, or too obsessed with the supposed rightness of their own myopic view, that are the problem.



SimplyAmorous said:


> an open slate to invite someone new into your group.. It would be nice if the world worked like this.. but I sure do not see it...


That's how my world works. Cast your eyes across the plain of people I'm intimately connected with and you'll find a massive variety. I discovered a very long time ago that most human beings have more in common than our perceived differences. If you practice connecting to that deeper sameness you get use to discovering, time and again, how much the same we are. You also get the beautiful of exposure to differences, which is always good form my perspective. While many people like a life filled with human mirrors that just reflect back themselves, I can think of few things less boring and unpalatable. 

Personally not one part of me is interested in building a life with people who are just like me.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
It is natural for human brains to look for patterns - it is in some ways the essence of rational thought. At the same time we need to be on the guard against forming unfair patterns based on partial information. 

Where I think stereotyping causes the most problems in discussions is where someone feels "accused" of some terrible behavior based on their inclusion in a group. 

So a statement "surveys show that men will rape women if they think they can get away with it", will immediately cause me to react. It is suggesting that I, as a man, would commit what I, as an individual, think is a horrible crime. Changing to "surveys show that many men ...." fixes that.

It may seem trivial, but I think the qualifier is critically important. "Women bait and switch in marriage, cutting off sex as soon as they get a ring on their fingers" - accuses *all* women of deceptive behavior, and a woman remaining silent may be assumed to be agreeing. Changing to "some women...." stops this from being an attack on all women.

Sensitivity to words is part of language ,and occurs on all sorts of places. Imagine you are sitting on the sofa with a cat on your lap. Telling your spouse "get me a glass of water" seems so much ruder, than "could you please get me a glass of water , I have a cat on my lap". The slight wording change makes all the difference. 

So, rather than saying "stop posting inflammatory things", I will instead say "I hope posters will think about how readers may misinterpret their words as attacks and adjust their posts accordingly".


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> A chipmunk, seeing the approach of a hawk, can instantly form rational opinions regarding the hawk's capabilities and likely intentions. Political correctness is an invitation for otherwise intelligent humans to function daily as if they have no previous experience on this planet.


Sometimes. However, sometimes things that were once "Politically Incorrect" are commonsense now. Two quick examples: 

"It is OK for people of different colors to get married"
"Women can be good wives and have a career."

Granted, there is still a fair number who don't believe either of these. However, the vast majority do. But both are fairly new, only coming into mainstream acceptance within say, the last 30-40ish years? 

My point being- past experience is a good predictor for an individual but not always very good at big societal trends. Another example: In 2015 it is PC to speak carefully about gay people, but the kids born today will likely not even blink at a wedding between gay people. It will be commonplace.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

I am a pretty non-mainstream thinker in the internet world, but pretty mainstream within my own demographic. For that reason, other than negative racial stereotyping I'm not really that bothered by other stereotyping. It seems to me that people stereotype out of their life experiences so in the TAM world I pretty much shake my head, once in awhile post a response or two and move on. 

However I do learn a lot from some TAM posters and as long as their viewpoints don't conflict with my values I will consider it and sometimes change my way of thinking. I like non mainstream thinkers who challenge my viewpoints in a respectful way. Some of these posters have been really helpful in causing me to rethink some of my stereotyping. JLD is one such poster. I don't always agree with her but gosh does she make me think and sometimes change the way I think. 

Other posters are so disrespectful, condescending and judgmental in their approach that I often wonder what their purpose is in posting. Common sense would dictate that the average person would not receive a word of what they are saying because of the presentation. But I guess they are so puffed up in their superiority complex that they are unable to discern the uselessness of their bloviating.

SA it seems like negative stereotyping and generalizations really bother you? Are you a peacemaker at heart or do you just want to be understood? I personally have so much appreciation for you as a TAM poster but I have to admit I wish it didn't bother you so much when people don't feel the way you feel about certain things. Although I know a lot of people don't agree with your views (I mostly do)I don't think anyone could dispute that you always present them in a thoughtful and respectful manner. So you have nothing to prove. Your internet character speaks for itself and conversely so does the character of your bashers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Stereotypes are often used as either a simple mechanism to hurt other people or defend an untrue premise. TAM maybe somewhat stereotypes run amuck but much of it serves to push agendas rather that continue legitimate discussions. This notion that this was my experience so it must apply to EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD lol

I have been wrongly stereotyped here OFTEN and professionally some. I learned long ago to just shake my head. Some people truely can only exist in ignorance and I pity them to some degree.

Keep being you SA!

Sincerely,
A fan


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Unbelievable said*: *A chipmunk, seeing the approach of a hawk, can instantly form rational opinions regarding the hawk's capabilities and likely intentions. Political correctness is an invitation for otherwise intelligent humans to function daily as if they have no previous experience on this planet*.


I've always enjoyed your parables Unbelievable .... I see wisdom in what you say here.. 

I am not exactly a "*politically correct*" person ...I think the best Jokes I've ever heard were ones making fun of political correctness... I was trying to find some.. came across this, gotta keep it tame *> * Blue Collar TV Politically Correct Fairy Tales With Larry The Cable Guy

Myself & H were talking about this last night & he says ...what's the point in *not* saying certain things when you THINK them anyway.....he just felt it's as much as lying , or white lying ...to save face.. it's not like it's going to *change* anyone inside (if people are bigoted or judge on race, religion, etc..and I too agree this is VERY WRONG)

What happens is ... people just become more PLASTIC...it's becomes about "Censoring free speech /expression"...I even feel it prevents others from getting deeper to allow for some meeting of the minds... 










I feel there is a way to give constructive criticism without being intentionally hurtful or rude (of course this should be avoided !)...this allows us to be honest , see our differences... and









I just don't like the pandering so you will "Look good" - it all seems so fake to me...I'd rather know how someone feels.. the truth, even if it's against me, or how I think.. Authenticity is rare to find today.. 

This is *why *everyone in Politics is a JOKE.. would anyone remotely HONEST even survive....It's not possible!!...This is what we have bred.... what we excuse.. what we choose.. we can only blame ourselves. 

We will never see any up coming charismatic leaders worth their salt when they have ALL been conditioned to talk a line of








to soothe the masses...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> *I have a problem with stereotyping and generalization when they come from people too ignorant, stupid or malicious to understand that:
> 
> A. Exceptions are the rule
> B. Even confirmed stereotypes are but one layer of a complex whole
> ...


 I THINK as you described here... which I was trying to lay out.... I have always gleamed from your posts/ experiences.... you appear a pretty OPEN MINDED guy.. who enjoys & HAS enjoyed a wide range of friends in your lifetime... diverse personalities.... and have learned from them, as they have learned from you.. (as it should be! :smthumbup 

Being humble to admit where we missed it.. it's HUGE.. I bought a book many yrs ago on the value of "Humility".. I don't see it as a weakness as much as others commonly do.. but more a sign of strength & authenticity.

Yeah...I have even told people I met ...once I got to know them better.. what my 1st impressions might have been...we can laugh about it... I've always been one OPEN to learn of others.. I'm a naturally curious person, it's not to HANG them with it... but to honestly see where people are coming from, what has shaped them, what motivates them.. it all fascinates me.. and often such stories are inspiring in themselves.. all this is well & good with friends.. may not work in a marriage so much.. but friends.. Oh [email protected]# 

There are some things I REBUFF though... anyone who doesn't seem "SAFE" ... always the question in the back of my mind is >> could this person harm me, my family, cause undue trouble (drug addicts, anyone with a criminal record who was NOT innocent, if one too many screws seem loose, etc ).. we make judgments all the time.. we have to.. 



> *That's how my world works. Cast your eyes across the plain of people I'm intimately connected with and you'll find a massive variety.* *I discovered a very long time ago that most human beings have more in common than our perceived differences. If you practice connecting to that deeper sameness you get use to discovering, time and again, how much the same we are. You also get the beautiful of exposure to differences, which is always good form my perspective. While many people like a life filled with human mirrors that just reflect back themselves, I can think of few things less boring and unpalatable. *
> 
> Personally not one part of me is interested in building a life with people who are just like me.


 The massive variety is pretty impressive.. since we live down in a hole in the boonies.. I can't say we get out that much to meet wide varieties of people... though it's something I am OPEN to . when out & about.. and here on forums.. I learn a lot!

Well explained here Jaquen ... your words are similar to mine (below)....

12 + yrs ago... I slowly lost my religion... this went on for like 9 months.. as this was happening.. I penned my thoughts/ struggles ...like debating myself on some of the conflicting messages (so I felt) some scriptures contained.. I could never get past them... which has helped me see where others are coming from...I've ALWAYS been one who WANTS to know why.. hear that other side.. never one to shut it out.... I read books & listen to commentators who take the opposing view purposely ... this helps me broaden my mind...to get better perspective ...it challenges me!! I want that!#$%... I have changed my views over the years in a # of areas.... no desire to be rigid.. but Open, "reasonably" pliable in all things...

In that writing to myself 12 yrs ago... I ended it saying quote *>>* "To me, it matters not what anyone believes, because if their belief makes/helps/uplifts them to be that better person/that good example to mankind & more helpful to society as a whole in this crazy selfish world, then I say .... "Live and let be", cause I think we all have MORE in common than NOT in common if we could just look beyond our "Creeds".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> *Good evening all
> It is natural for human brains to look for patterns - it is in some ways the essence of rational thought. At the same time we need to be on the guard against forming unfair patterns based on partial information.
> 
> Where I think stereotyping causes the most problems in discussions is where someone feels "accused" of some terrible behavior based on their inclusion in a group. *


 This happens often enough if one uses a term to express a part of themselves /what "camp" they feel they are most comfortable in.. when I hear the term Feminist.... I have to hold back thoughts of "radical", my next wonder is -how much this person may be against more Traditional ideals like mine...do they look down on SAHM's & find us lazy eating bon bons, foolish & holding back their movement .... just as I am sure ..on the other side...others who hear me refer to myself as "older fashioned" conjures up thoughts that I am trying to repress women, hold them back or I think all families should go back to living like "the Waltons" 








....even though, yeah.. I find this show very lovely, we still watch it some nights...myself & Husband , it does not offend me in any way.... we enjoy the plots.. and the lessons often learned ...it was a "simpler" time , I much enjoy the "nostalgia" of it all.. 



> So a statement "*surveys show that men will rape women if they think they can get away with it*", will immediately cause me to react. It is suggesting that I, as a man, would commit what I, as an individual, think is a horrible crime. Changing to "surveys show that many men ...." fixes that.


 Of course you would react.. that's SO NOT true for any GOOD MAN with well intentions.. he would *NEVER* conduct himself in that matter.. regardless of who would never find out, or take it to his grave.. some of us like to look in the mirror every day.. 

Being horny doesn't always = take what you can get. 



> It may seem trivial, but I think the qualifier is critically important. "Women bait and switch in marriage, cutting off sex as soon as they get a ring on their fingers" - accuses *all* women of deceptive behavior, and a woman remaining silent may be assumed to be agreeing. *Changing to "some women...." stops this from being an attack on all women.*


 Yes... it makes all the difference in how something is said.. kinda like the *"You vs I" statements* in communication.. this alone could do wonders for a marriage..










Using "SOME" more often, this will help.. these are worthy subjects.. if we are careful to give them the proper context in how often these things DO happen.. it shouldn't be an offense to anyone who's not guilty of this...they would be right behind us in how CRINGE-worthy & hurtful the behavior is.. 



> Sensitivity to words is part of language ,and occurs on all sorts of places. Imagine you are sitting on the sofa with a cat on your lap. Telling your spouse "get me a glass of water" seems so much ruder, than "could you please get me a glass of water , I have a cat on my lap". * The slight wording change makes all the difference.*


 I have "given attitude" rushed telling my husband on Thanksgiving (yrs ago now)...his parents coming in a few minutes to vacuum ..... he told me "NO! "..added he didn't like my attitude".. He was right !.. I kissed him for that.. (love the truth) - I deserved it...then he happily did it for me. 



> *So, rather than saying "stop posting inflammatory things", I will instead say "I hope posters will think about how readers may misinterpret their words as attacks and adjust their posts accordingly"*.


 Always a KIND poster Richardsharpe....here is an emoticon for you







.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

RoseAglow said:


> Sometimes. However, sometimes things that were once "Politically Incorrect" are commonsense now. Two quick examples:
> 
> "It is OK for people of different colors to get married"
> "Women can be good wives and have a career."
> ...


Government made interracial marriage not merely politically incorrect, but illegal. In the 1600s, interracial marriage was very common in our country. It took government taxing people based on their race to make people start really caring about skin tone. Before that, people in this country were separated along economic and religious lines. 

Societal changes becoming commonplace doesn't mean they are beneficial. Out of wedlock births were pretty uncommon not that long ago and now we have segments of society where 85% of births fall into that category. Murder, rape, delinquency, and unemployment were also more uncommon back then. Terror attacks are more common these days but that doesn't mean they are beneficial or they should be encouraged. 
Whether this gay marriage trend will prove to be beneficial or not will be for future historians to decide.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

People have an instinctive need to understand the world around them, and part of seeking to do so is to try the figure out "the rules". What governs behavior and action? Isn't that basically what science and every other field of academic study is about?

When we try to figure people out, we rely heavily on generalizations to do so, because it's a lot easier than trying to figure out what motivates a world of 7 billion individuals. Some generalizations are good or at least helpful, and some obviously aren't. Deciding which is which is part of the process of figuring out the rules.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Image matters. If a patched 1% biker pulls up next to me in traffic, I'm not going to start crap with him. He MIGHT be a wimp. He MIGHT be a pushover. He might even be a great guy to have a conversation with. But my knowledge of the general kind of people that get patched into outlaw biker gangs is going to inform my behavior.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RoseAglow said:


> Sometimes. However, sometimes things that were once "Politically Incorrect" are commonsense now. Two quick examples:
> 
> "It is OK for people of different colors to get married"
> "Women can be good wives and have a career."
> ...


 I don't think anyone would ever choose to be attracted to the same sex..being someone turned off just seeing 2 women together.. I will *never* understand it..(even my H does not want to see the man in porn)..but I refuse to judge it.. I feel it would be like someone trying to change me to want women.. it wouldn't be happening [email protected]#$ ...and that would be a tremendous fate to lay down the desires raging within / every sexual fantasy told we are defective, sinful & ugly... I wouldn't be able to do it ..I'd say "screw you all, I am going to go SIN!"[email protected]#$ 

I tend to feel if God / the Creator, what force that BE...whatever one wants to call it...if we are born like this... and it's not hurting others.. Let it BE...

I could go into a song & dance over what Sodom & Gomorrah was about & it was far more than just THIS..which is near always overlooked.. 

Like growing up my best friends little brother -he was NUTS about me.. he'd yell he wanted to marry me.. be his lover.. it has rather hilarious... he was also an Alter boy in the Catholic Church... I suspect something happened THERE.. he has been a Homosexual since his young adult hood.. my H jokes I really messed him up.. we don't think badly here... but it's true, it's not something we understand.. or these headlines..







...never watched the Kardashians really.. but I might start tuning in.. 

I purposely made our oldest son , who is a christian ...watch Prayers for Bobby one day.. I wanted him to see HOW HURTFUL, the damage done to throw scriptures in one's face.....the true story where this mother was a brow beating fundamentalist ...she felt she could CURE her son....he ended up taking his own life....what a tragedy... In the aftermath...she made it her mission to speak against this sort of hate and embrace those like her lost son Bobby.. Very moving account of "acceptance".


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I purposely made our oldest son , who is a christian ...watch Prayers for Bobby one day.. I wanted him to see HOW HURTFUL, the damage done to throw scriptures in one's face.....the true story where this mother was a brow beating fundamentalist ...she felt she could CURE her son....he ended up taking his own life....what a tragedy... In the aftermath...she made it her mission to speak against this sort of hate and embrace those like her lost son Bobby.. Very moving account of "acceptance".


I stereotype Lifetime movies.

Except "Mother May I Sleep With Danger". I love that one.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

It often seems to be impossible to discuss issues here because some people simply seem to refuse deal with generalizations. However, this seems to be only on topics that they disagree with.

Claims that "men generally want sex more than women" are met with howls from those for whom this is not their experience. 

The same person who objected to the "men want more sex" meme will then say "we're all wired to want some Strange" and be absolutely shocked that anyone would question that statement.

I automatically put the words "most, many or some" in front on any generalization I read. I guess the answer is to just always put the qualifier in there explicitly.

If I say "most men want sex more than women", by all means feel free to respond with "I was reading a study that disagrees" or "I've talked to a lot of people and they disagree". But, please, please don't say "that's not true, I want sex more than my husband does".


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Stereotyping /Generalizing -Why we DO it - how to avoid hurting....what Inflame*



GTdad said:


> People have an instinctive need to understand the world around them, and part of seeking to do so is to try the figure out "the rules". What governs behavior and action? Isn't that basically what science and every other field of academic study is about?
> 
> When we try to figure people out, we rely heavily on generalizations to do so, because it's a lot easier than trying to figure out what motivates a world of 7 billion individuals. Some generalizations are good or at least helpful, and some obviously aren't. Deciding which is which is part of the process of figuring out the rules.


This is very true! I use generalizations extensively and admit it. The problem arises when a generalization becomes folklore and is accepted as truth overall Often the later evolves to be so because of the laziness of people to consider if the generalization really applies for a specific case. 

This is what makes this so funny to me. 

View attachment 34482


I have been fortunate to mostly be surrounded by people who use generalizations in a considered way. However for the past couple of years at my company our group has been a victim of this and it has been emotionally draining. 

Most of it that I see on TAM is really a form of venting and it doesn't bother me. But there has been a couple of threads in the political forum that really offended me because of taking without question a certain viewpoint and generalizing it to conclude people involved are liars with the intent to deceive the country. One poster had a new thread about the same thing almost daily for awhile until he was banned. The real issue was that this poster was a fanatic about a particular topic he was misinformed about. 

Most of the others that occur don't bother me. SA I often think you trigger too easily over statements that don't apply towards your husband but I support your pointing it out. Not all men and women are the same and many don't really appreciate how the differences manifest. 

I suspect that you and your husband are like me and my wife. If the stereotypical man and woman are 12 and 6 on a clock then my wife and I are more like 9 and 3. At least that's how I view it. I don't meet a lot of the stereotypical qualities of a man either but I don't take those statements to imply I'm not a man. A man defines himself and external validation is nice but not necessary.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

thefam said:


> I am a pretty non-mainstream thinker in the internet world, but pretty mainstream within my own demographic. For that reason, other than negative racial stereotyping I'm not really that bothered by other stereotyping. It seems to me that people stereotype out of their life experiences so in the TAM world I pretty much shake my head, once in awhile post a response or two and move on.
> 
> *However I do learn a lot from some TAM posters and as long as their viewpoints don't conflict with my values I will consider it and sometimes change my way of thinking. I like non mainstream thinkers who challenge my viewpoints in a respectful way.* Some of these posters have been really helpful in causing me to rethink some of my stereotyping. *JLD is one such poster*. I don't always agree with her but gosh does she make me think and sometimes change the way I think.


 JLD can be a hammer at times.. or more of a digger...(bold on the forum!)..ha ha ... but boy is she a sweet lady in real life.... You are not the 1st to feel this way, she's annoyed some, then wham.. she had an impact on them -in a GOOD WAY, helpful ... I think it's pretty cool !! 

She's helped ME see the other side in some things , where it just wasn't my experiences so much...isn't that what we are supposed to do/ what friends DO....share.. and learn from each other... 

Our husbands are so far removed from each other in a few areas ... that if I came to her way of thinking. I might loose attraction for my own [email protected]#







.. this wouldn't be good... we can crack jokes about our differences and almost fall off the chair laughing about it...







I love that... 



> *Other posters are so disrespectful, condescending and judgmental in their approach that I often wonder what their purpose is in posting. Common sense would dictate that the average person would not receive a word of what they are saying because of the presentation. But I guess they are so puffed up in their superiority complex that they are unable to discern the uselessness of their bloviating.*


 that's a new word for me...*Bloviating* = "To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner"... 



> *SA it seems like negative stereotyping and generalizations really bother you? Are you a peacemaker at heart or do you just want to be understood?*


 Let's see.. being rather UN-politically correct.. NO.. I want people to speak as they feel.. *even if it stings*.. I think what you see here is.. I tend to wear my







on my sleeve.. Oh it's not the wisest way to be.. I don't seem to mind it though... it's who I am. I have a "tough as nails side" .. so being soft is good for me !

I've thought of doing a thread on THIS subject for a while now.. just wasn't sure how to present it.. I wish Samyeagar would pop in... it was one of his posts a while back where he explained it very well.. how it's common to DO THIS.. it's like what he said was the same thing I read in so many of these articles..

I notice it often...people correcting / accusing others of doing it.. sometimes it is JUSTIFIED, because a hurtful line was crossed (many of us can FEEL that -like Richard's post pointed out) .. sometimes not so much... it's controversial ! 



> *I personally have so much appreciation for you as a TAM poster but I have to admit I wish it didn't bother you so much when people don't feel the way you feel about certain things. Although I know a lot of people don't agree with your views (I mostly do)I don't think anyone could dispute that you always present them in a thoughtful and respectful manner.* So you have nothing to prove. Your internet character speaks for itself and conversely so does the character of your bashers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Awe







... you know the feeling is mutual here.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> It often seems to be impossible to discuss issues here because some people simply seem to refuse deal with generalizations. However, this seems to be only on topics that they disagree with.


I am one of the people who thinks generalizations are completely useless in advice seeking or giving. 

What you get when you allow generalization to enter is one more distraction from understanding root cause. The ONLY route to a solution is to the root cause of the problem. When gender generalization is used, all you wind up doing is adding another layer of doubt as to whether or not THAT PERSON conforms to the generalization with no benefit to knowing that such and such might be generally the case.

In the final analysis, it seems completely useless to talk in terms of generalizations rather than identifying what is going on in a specific situation.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am one of the people who thinks generalizations are completely useless in advice seeking or giving.
> 
> What you get when you allow generalization to enter is one more distraction from understanding root cause. The ONLY route to a solution is to the root cause of the problem. When gender generalization is used, all you wind up doing is adding another layer of doubt as to whether or not THAT PERSON conforms to the generalization with no benefit to knowing that such and such might be generally the case.
> 
> In the final analysis, it seems completely useless to talk in terms of generalizations rather than identifying what is going on in a specific situation.


If it were true that generalizations are completely useless in advice seeking or giving, then there would be no point in ANY advice book. Why bother reading "5 Love Languages"? It just deals with things that are generally true. The authors don't know anything specific about a reader or their problems. 

Of course it would be best to know everything about someone's unique situation. But when omniscience isn't possible you have to make do.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> If it were true that generalizations are completely useless in advice seeking or giving, then there would be no point in ANY advice book. Why bother reading "5 Love Languages"? It just deals with things that are generally true. The authors don't know anything specific about a reader or their problems.


5 love languages is not gender specific. (I was not super clear. I was referring specific to gender generalization.) ANYONE can identify with any of the love languages. For myself, I have actually avoided His Needs, Her Needs for this reason. Since neither of us are very stereotypical, it strikes me as unlikely to be of much use. Another one that is gender neutral is Passionate Marriage, for example.




> Of course it would be best to know everything about someone's unique situation. But when omniscience isn't possible you have to make do.


Well given that this is an interactive board, I tend to "make do" with questions about the actual situation. The truth is, there are plenty of people whose entire goal is to hate on the opposite sex.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Fozzy said:


> *I stereotype Lifetime movies.
> 
> Except "Mother May I Sleep With Danger". I love that one.*


I seen that one..  with Tori Spelling... Hot Bad Boy looks pretty good...then turns into a controlling psychopath. 

I think most men would turn their noses.. He never minds watching ... though often when they announce what's up & coming.. he'll make comments to HOW SICK movies are getting any more.. brutal killings/ blood / torture/ cheating ...who needs rated R ....I guess we sound like 2 old fogies ...he's happier to put on a Hallmark movie... .


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I seen that one..  with Tori Spelling... Hot Bad Boy looks pretty good...then turns into a controlling psychopath.
> 
> I think most men would turn their noses.. He never minds watching ... though often when they announce what's up & coming.. he'll make comments to HOW SICK movies are getting any more.. brutal killings/ blood / torture/ cheating ...who needs rated R ....I guess we sound like 2 old fogies ...he's happier to put on a Hallmark movie... .


Same here... I told my H the other day that if TV and commercials get much worse, we are turning it off.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Fozzy said:


> *Image matters. If a patched 1% biker pulls up next to me in traffic, I'm not going to start crap with him. He MIGHT be a wimp. He MIGHT be a pushover. He might even be a great guy to have a conversation with. But my knowledge of the general kind of people that get patched into outlaw biker gangs is going to inform my behavior*.


I am so with you Fozzy! In one of the articles it said this..



> *Some stereotypes are very useful in predicting behavior of members of a group where we do not know the member. *
> 
> ** *We assume that *soldiers* attacking our position are will try to kill us.
> 
> ...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

In my cop role, I dress like a cop. I act like a cop. I talk like a cop. I ride around in a police car. If someone sees me and makes the assumption that I'm a cop, they could be excused for believing the image I created. In my military role, I do act, dress, and talk the part and observers could be excused for believing the role I deliberately portrayed. 
If someone dresses like an enemy of society, talks like one, acts like one, hangs out with other similar folks, listens to songs that glorify criminals and violence, sports tats that glorify criminals and violence, the rest of us can be excused for believing the image they spend years perfecting. 
Same thing goes for those who go out of their way to appear, act, and talk, like ********, dopers, losers, terrorists, cowboys, bankers, physicians, construction workers, circus clowns, etc. There's not a 13 year old kid that can't go to the mall and pretty accurately identify the other juveniles in the mall, simply by their mannerisms, speech, and dress.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Stereotyping /Generalizing -Why we DO it - how to avoid hurting....what Inflame*



meson said:


> This is very true! * I use generalizations extensively and admit it.* The problem arises when a generalization becomes folklore and is accepted as truth overall Often the later evolves to be so because of the laziness of people to consider if the generalization really applies for a specific case.


 Love the honesty MESON.. :smthumbup:



> *I have been fortunate to mostly be surrounded by people who use generalizations in a considered way. However for the past couple of years at my company our group has been a victim of this and it has been emotionally draining*.


 Victim of others stereotyping your co-workers you mean ? 



> *Most of it that I see on TAM is really a form of venting and it doesn't bother me.*


Could be their world was just turned upside down.. their emotions are all over the place when posting.. I can easily understand some foul talk/ slamming a gender in the midst of this.. I just think during that.. they may need a little grace..at least from the regulars here ! 



> *Most of the others that occur don't bother me. SA I often think you trigger too easily over statements that don't apply towards your husband but I support your pointing it out. * Not all men and women are the same and many don't really appreciate how the differences manifest.


 What you say is true Meson... I DO .. I have !.. I came here wanting MORE MORE MORE out of him... and I was met with Big Bad Wolf saying "*1*. A woman WILL RESENT a weak man."...."*2*. A man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated. A women that does not feel dominated will feel insecure and "provoke" the man in attempt to test his mettle. "... 
these posts were *A CONFLICT *for me... what he was saying ...I wanted that, more dominance out of him !!... yet at the same time.. it ticked me off inferring men like mine are WEAK....that I would RESENT him.. I wanted to DEFEND HIM, his goodness, his honor...the soft guy...I got caught up in debating some of this stuff.. (always enjoyed that though!)...the whole "Nice Guy thing"... buying the book.. the "Alpha /Beta" definitions, all new to me..... it pushed me to understand HIM better (not so much what other men are LIKE but HOW *HE* was geared) .. myself better (what I needed , not necessarily what I wanted) ... it was all for the GOOD... in the process I realized how what I was thinking would be good for me, would probably work against us.. in reading how more ALPHA men are geared. So that was really cool! 



> I suspect that you and your husband are like me and my wife. If the stereotypical man and woman are 12 and 6 on a clock then my wife and I are more like 9 and 3. At least that's how I view it. I don't meet a lot of the stereotypical qualities of a man either but I don't take those statements to imply I'm not a man. *A man defines himself and external validation is nice but not necessary*.


 This is what they say.. I have learned through all of this.. it appears I am more insecure over my soft husband , due that I care about these things far more than HE would give "a rat's a$$" over. (His words).. ..which at the end of the day is .. rather funny.. He tells me I just like to argue with people and be "contrary".


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Claims that "men generally want sex more than women" are met with howls from those for whom this is not their experience.
> 
> The same person who objected to the "men want more sex" meme will then say "we're all wired to want some Strange" and be absolutely shocked that anyone would question that statement.
> 
> ...


I have posted multiple studies that demonstrate that this particular generalization is false. 

And that to my mind is one of the main problems with stereotypes: people will cling to them no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, insisting that all that evidence, no matter how extensive, is "outliers"

Another problem I have with stereotypes is that they are so often used to arbitrarily dismiss people on superficial criteria. Take the biker example: you decide that they are all thugs and criminals, but there are many, many who do not fit this profile. There's a gang of Harley riders, for example, that are specifically a Christian group that are dedicated to their bikes and to fundraising for charity (forget their name, but there are literally hundreds of members).

Stereotypes tend to spread hate unnecessarily.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

always_alone said:


> I have posted multiple studies that demonstrate that this particular generalization is false.


And consistently ignored or disputed anything offered to the contrary. 

Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?

Do Men Really Want Sex More Than Women? | Kinsey Confidential

which ... lends itself to your stereotype.

My stereotype, depending upon your perspective is;

that I overtly side with and cover for men and their behavior - held mostly by women.

that I overtly side with and cover for women and their behavior - held mostly by betrayed men.

My favorite stereotype, is that I'm rather awesome. This is a minority view held by four people. Of which I am one.




always_alone said:


> And that to my mind is one of the main problems with stereotypes: people will cling to them no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, insisting that all that evidence, no matter how extensive, is "outliers"


They sure do ...



always_alone said:


> Another problem I have with stereotypes is that they are so often used to arbitrarily dismiss people on superficial criteria. Take the biker example: you decide that they are all thugs and criminals, but there are many, many who do not fit this profile. There's a gang of Harley riders, for example, that are specifically a Christian group that are dedicated to their bikes and to fundraising for charity (forget their name, but there are literally hundreds of members).


Which makes them an outlier in terms of biker gangs. Al Capone used to give to charity all the time, even opened soup kitchens. So which was he? A caring philanthropist or a murderous thug?



always_alone said:


> Stereotypes tend to spread hate unnecessarily.


Stereotypes exist for a reason.

What you choose to do in light of the reasons depends upon the behavior of the individual or individuals being stereotyped. At which point you identify with the individual rather than the group stereotype.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

We usually don't have the time or the motivation to conduct exhaustive inquiries about everyone we see or meet. We draw logical conclusions about people based on our past experience or knowledge of similar people. We do so almost instantly and usually from a distance. All creatures do this if they wish to remain alive. 
We know that normal people don't wear bulky coats while entering banks when it's 90 degrees outdoors. When we see someone who does, we become naturally suspicious. We'd be idiots not to. If you see an unrestrained Pit Bull trotting toward your child you will probably have a different reaction than you would if you saw a cat, though it's entirely possible that the Pit Bull might have a sweeter disposition. 
The Christian biker group that chooses to dress in ways that emulate criminal bike gangs invites confusing the public. The college fraternity that adopts gangster hand signs deliberately invites confusion. The woman who dresses like a street walker invites confusion. If your kid is not involved in crime, he has no business dressing like a gangsta, talking like one, acting like one, or associating with gang members. If you aren't gay, why would you sport a rainbow sticker on the back window of your car? If you aren't into drugs, what's with the dancing bear decal on your back window? Why is there a roach clip dangling from your rear view mirror if you don't smoke weed? If people form logical inferences about you from the image you deliberately create, that isn't their problem, it's your problem. You decide how you will dress and how you will speak and how you will act. You decide who you associate with. Don't advertise what you aren't selling. 
I understand that many minorities believe the stereotype that white cops are racists. It is my burden to avoid dressing, acting, or speaking in ways that would reinforce that stereotype. They didn't dream up that stereotype, it was learned through many years of real experience.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Deejo said:


> And consistently ignored or disputed anything offered to the contrary.
> 
> Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?
> 
> ...


Touche!

Sure, stereotypes exist for a reason. But it is worthwhile examining that reason in more detail. It's true, for example, that native americans are disproportionately represented in prison populations. By an absolutely astounding percentage. We all know what the stereotypes are to explain this phenomenon, but these do an absolute disservice to the people in question, glossing over the real issues in favour of racial profiling.

Similarly, we have all been taught that men want sex and women don't and then reject any further analysis of this phenomenon, again doing great disservice to the people involved. 

And for what? Because we'd rather justify our judgmental attitudes than understand what's really going on?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

always_alone said:


> And for what? Because we'd rather justify our judgmental attitudes than understand what's really going on?


I often question if anyone really wants to know what's going on. Even when we say we do.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I often question if anyone really wants to know what's going on. Even when we say we do.


Maybe you're right about this, I don't know. Certainly it's easier and possibly more comfortable to keep one's head lodged up one's a$$.

But what I've learned from TAM stereotypes, for example, is that I am a worthless piece of garbage that has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of attraction and desirability, and I might as well give up now, as no man in his right mind would ever want someone like me.

When you're on the downside of the stereotypes, challenging them all of sudden looks like a lot more fun


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

always_alone said:


> Maybe you're right about this, I don't know. Certainly it's easier and possibly more comfortable to keep one's head lodged up one's a$$.
> 
> But what I've learned from TAM stereotypes, for example, is that I am a worthless piece of garbage that has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of attraction and desirability, and I might as well give up now, as no man in his right mind would ever want someone like me.
> 
> When you're on the downside of the stereotypes, challenging them all of sudden looks like a lot more fun


I've always got room on Team Awesome.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I've always got room on Team Awesome.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Maybe you're right about this, I don't know. Certainly it's easier and possibly more comfortable to keep one's head lodged up one's a$$.
> 
> But what I've learned from TAM stereotypes, for example, is that I am a worthless piece of garbage that has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of attraction and desirability, and I might as well give up now, as no man in his right mind would ever want someone like me.
> 
> When you're on the downside of the stereotypes, challenging them all of sudden looks like a lot more fun


TBH AA I haven't see this. I've seen men interested in what you have to say and taking their time to read and process your posts and give thought provoking answers.

Maybe you're getting PM's that say differently.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

*Stereotyping /Generalizing -Why we DO it - how to avoid hurting....what Infla...*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Have you been hurt by unfair generalizations, wrongly stereotyped ...and it BURNS you? .


People read my posts and think I'm a man! 

It has made me realize that I do not fall into the generalizations or stereotypes many men have about women. It doesn't burn me, I find it funny. I'm glad I'm not mistaken for a man in person


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Brigit said:


> TBH AA I haven't see this. I've seen men interested in what you have to say and taking their time to read and process your posts and give thought provoking answers.
> 
> Maybe you're getting PM's that say differently.


She means based on all the threads which talk about how and why women are desirable or attractive. According to those threads, most women are unattractive even though the same men will claim that men will screw any willing female. And if you aren't hot, then you at least must be submissive, which she is not.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I often question if anyone really wants to know what's going on. Even when we say we do.


I question that, too. I predict that very soon there will be new studies which turn all the old studies on their heads and show that if all factors are equal, men and women both want sex in equal measure. It will be shown that previous studies were flawed and biased or were not inclusive enough. As women are more comfortable with admitting and owning their sexuality, studies like those you posted will be considered flawed and not reliable.

When this happens and we link those new studies, are you going to believe them or cling to the stereotype?


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> She means based on all the threads which talk about how and why women are desirable or attractive. According to those threads, most women are unattractive even though the same men will claim that men will screw any willing female. And if you aren't hot, then you at least must be submissive, which she is not.


But I'm conflicted upon how attractive she perceives herself. On one hand she says she's "hideous" but then she states she feels as if she's "walking boobs." So I don't really know what she's talking about.

In any case, let me put a different spin on this whole "attractive thing." 

Every human that lives tries to survive to some extent. Humans have very developed brains and assess the environment and try their best to feed their wants and needs. Being attractive is only a survival mechanism because our society values it. Being good with numbers or being verbally gifted in sales are also survival mechanisms. 

The best thing anyone can do is assess themselves assess the environment and do what they must to survive. To complain too much wastes time and energy IMHO.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I question that, too. I predict that very soon there will be new studies which turn all the old studies on their heads and show that if all factors are equal, men and women both want sex in equal measure. It will be shown that previous studies were flawed and biased or were not inclusive enough. As women are more comfortable with admitting and owning their sexuality, studies like those you posted will be considered flawed and not reliable.
> 
> When this happens and we link those new studies, are you going to believe them or cling to the stereotype?


I'm going to cling to the stereotype that disagreeing with you, is simply what I'm supposed to do. 

So please don't start saying men want sex more. That would make things very awkward for me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> And consistently ignored or disputed anything offered to the contrary.
> 
> Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?
> 
> Do Men Really Want Sex More Than Women? | Kinsey Confidential


From the Kinsey link: there is also the strong possibility that some apparent differences in sex drive can be explained by the methodology chosen by the researchers to collect evidence of gender differences and so differences may not be as great or universal as they seem.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm going to cling to the stereotype that disagreeing with you, is simply what I'm supposed to do.
> 
> So please don't start saying men want sex more. That would make things very awkward for me.


Take us to Pleasure Town and no one gets hurt.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Brigit said:


> But I'm conflicted upon how attractive she perceives herself. On one hand she says she's "hideous" but then she states she feels as if she's "walking boobs." So I don't really know what she's talking about.


FW had it right. Yes, I've had some fine conversations here, and most people are polite and kind. But when I read threads of men describing their preferences, what makes a woman attractive, what makes a woman "garbage" or repulsive, I realize I fall on the downside of an alarming number of those stereotypes. It's actually been quite eye-opening, and a little frightening.

Of course, it's very difficult to be all bad, and there are a couple of things about me that others readily find attractive. I do have tits, for example, and they have earned a reasonable amount of attention over the years --albeit a fair amount that was completely unwanted.

My own opinions of how attractive I am are not necessarily informed by the judgments of others. Of course, some could argue that make me delusional. I like to think of it as independent-minded.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Brigit said:


> But I'm conflicted upon how attractive she perceives herself. On one hand she says she's "hideous" but then she states she feels as if she's "walking boobs." So I don't really know what she's talking about.
> 
> In any case, let me put a different spin on this whole "attractive thing."
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying...but seeking attention from society can be just as destructive to our self esteem as complaining about society's love affair with outward appearances. They are different sides of the same coin.

If we could value ourselves and each other based on attributes other than physical attractiveness everyone would be happier. The halo effect is a social issue, not a biological one.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> From the Kinsey link: there is also the strong possibility that some apparent differences in sex drive can be explained by the methodology chosen by the researchers to collect evidence of gender differences and so differences may not be as great or universal as they seem.


And the fact remains that despite some observed statistical differences on some measures, the significant variation within each gender and the overlap between them is plenty sufficient to render generalizations about men being more sexual pretty meaningless.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I know what you are saying...but seeking attention from society can be just as destructive to our self esteem as complaining about society's love affair with outward appearances. They are different sides of the same coin.
> 
> If we could value ourselves and each other based on attributes other than physical attractiveness everyone would be happier. The halo effect is a social issue, not a biological one.


Remember we are just having fun discussions on an internet forum. In real life do we really put that much value in how attractive someone is? I take my car to the mechanic and I care about the quality of workmanship and the price. I don't care what the guy looks like. Same with the deli guy who hands me my 1/2 lb. turkey or the guy who scans my purchases at Costco. 

So take the stuff you read here with a grain of salt.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes I do think in real life people hold each other to weird standards and then treat them differently based on those standards. I don't think it is just a TAM thing.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

*Stereotyping /Generalizing -Why we DO it - how to avoid hurting....what Infla...*



Brigit said:


> In real life do we really put that much value in how attractive someone is?


All those cops that let me off with a warning just liked my personality


----------



## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

*Re: Stereotyping /Generalizing -Why we DO it - how to avoid hurting....what Infla...*



coffee4me said:


> All those cops that let me off with a warning just liked my personality


I take it you don't get pulled over daily. Right? At least I hope not.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> FW had it right. Yes, I've had some fine conversations here, and most people are polite and kind. *But when I read threads of men describing their preferences, what makes a woman attractive, what makes a woman "garbage" or repulsive, I realize I fall on the downside of an alarming number of those stereotypes.* It's actually been quite eye-opening, and a little frightening.


 One thing about forums is.. the honesty can be BRUTAL...rudeness a free for all... hiding behind a computer screen does this...... It's one thing I actually LOVE even when I DON'T LIKE it - if this even makes sense... in real life the majority will not come off like this.. they will downplay things to "save face".. they would be more sensitive to their hearers.. 

What about this thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/264346-physical-turn-offs-mans-appearance-2.html 

There are some mighty VOCAL posts here on how women seek visually Good looking men....almost all of these stated they did not want a FAT man for instance.. lots of







's to go around.. on both sides... 

Let's face it.. if the man or women doesn't tip some on the "ALPHA" scale....which gives rise to the dopamine response... a little eye candy / status / his humor /confidence ...he (or she's) got to have more going on to override what is lacking .... just seems this is the reality for all of us..


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

:scratchhead:

I don't see what's wrong with political correctness - it's simple acknowledgement of facts and simple correction of language to avoid expressing one's own ignorance, and possibly offending others without a desire to.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Let's face it.. if the man or women doesn't tip some on the "ALPHA" scale....which gives rise to the dopamine response... a little eye candy / status / his humor /confidence ...he (or she's) got to have more going on to override what is lacking .... just seems this is the reality for all of us..


I wasn't just referring to stereotypes and preferences about the physical, but also about personality, behaviour, the whole gamut of things.

And amazingly enough I'm not actually overweight, although it is very interesting to me how many people assume I am when I start challenging stereotypes about women.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> I wasn't just referring to stereotypes and preferences about the physical, but also about personality, behaviour, the whole gamut of things.
> 
> And amazingly enough I'm not actually overweight, although it is very interesting to me how many people assume I am when I start challenging stereotypes about women.


 If you are meaning me.. I wasn't assuming this at all. I never got that impression from anything you have written -ever.. I feel many times if someone is *introverted* for instance, it doesn't do them many favors with the opposite sex.. if people struggle to be social.. it has many marks against them... 

But this doesn't mean they wouldn't make a fine match with someone who has similar interests and quirks, it's just harder for these types to find each other, & put themselves out there..

I don't understand what you are reading that JUMPS out to make you feel as you do... DO YOU LIKE WHO YOU ARE ...your behaviors / quirks and feel you have much to offer in a relationship ? I know you are married.. so it's about what he appreciates, as to not be concerned with the others.. There are things about all of us that another wouldn't be able to stand.. yet someone over there may actually appreciate those qualities.. 

I am big on this saying.. simple as it may be..

 



Brigit said:


> Remember we are just having fun discussions on an internet forum*. In real life do we really put that much value in how attractive someone is?* I take my car to the mechanic and I care about the quality of workmanship and the price. I don't care what the guy looks like. Same with the deli guy who hands me my 1/2 lb. turkey or the guy who scans my purchases at Costco.
> 
> So take the stuff you read here with a grain of salt.


Of course none of those things would bother us.. 

Though some things are just sad... a kid I went to high school with.. his face was burned.. he wasn't a bad looking guy. but you know it took away from his looks.. .it's just a difficult thing.. in no way would anyone treat him badly ...and if they did make fun .. I'd want to HURT THEM.. seriously.... but at the same time....I can't deny that what happened altered his looks enough that I wouldn't want to get involved.. it would be a turn off.. How can we say these things without coming off in a bad way..


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> How can we say these things without coming off in a bad way..


But what really matters, IMHO, is how he viewed himself. (Oh what a boring response!) ..... really though, I'm sure one could acknowledge something about themselves for what it is and still be secure within themselves if they wanted to be. 

I was thinking that stereotypes are different to physical preferences but then, maybe they aren't too distant from each other. I've felt myself agreeing with both sides of the coin with this thread. I'm sure most of us have been stereotyped in varying degrees through-out our lives, as well as stereotyping others. 

Do I fall into a stereotype because I like to wear makeup, pencil skirts, heels (or rocker boots) and carry myself in a certain way? Why is that I cherish feeling 'feminine' in this constructed manner? ....kind of regardless of the answers though, I feel good in my skin and that's what matters to me. Granted, my husband loves this too, but he also loved when I dressed in rock-band tshirts, leather jacket and my trusted chuck taylors. Outfit aside, what he finds most attractive is conviction. Just own who you are. I don't know if that's similar to other perspectives here or not in terms of attraction and stereotypes. I tend to skim much of those. 

A stereotype can be simple, such as when people ask how many children I have. No doubt they assume I have children because of my age and perhaps too, because I'm married. It's not offensive; I just tell them we don't have children. Back in the day, I remember going into the record store and it being assumed that I was picking up records for my boyfriend... not that I could be the DJ. Other stereotypes can of course be harmful to the freedom and rights of others. 

I personally have always_alone stereotyped as an interesting woman.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

always_alone said:


> I wasn't just referring to stereotypes and preferences about the physical, but also about personality, behaviour, the whole gamut of things.
> 
> And amazingly enough I'm not actually overweight, although it is very interesting to me how many people assume I am when I start challenging stereotypes about women.


That's because your posts are a little confusing; or at least to me. From your writing style it's obvious you are intelligent and educated - your writing is tight, concise and has a nice flow. 

The content; however, comes across like you're _angry_ at men for wanting someone who's attractive when in essence that is a survival instinct. A lot of what is attractive is also indicators of health: 

Clear eyes
Clear skin
White teeth
Shinny Hair
Symmetry
Fit body

Those are sexual cues that this woman will produce healthy offspring. If you give off those cues men will automatically find you desirable. 

I don't know what you look like. You might be beautiful. IDK But because you seem angry at nature one gets the feeling that you feel you've been wronged by nature in some way.

(At least that is the feeling I get.)


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Not that Always needs my defense but....she's not actually saying "oh gee I wish men thought I was pretty". What she is really saying is "why are women only valued for how they look instead of who they are" and she finds this sad and at times, even cruel. She doesn't just mean herself, she is talking about the whole strange conditioning that happens to both men and women where we are all taught this very limiting way of valuing each other.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

Faithful Wife;12733226 What she is really saying is "why are women only valued for how they look instead of who they are" and she finds this sad and at times said:


> I'll go back to my past point. We are on the forum of TAM. There's a lot of sex talk here which tends to correlate high with discussions on who do you want to f*ck.
> 
> In real life this isn't going on as much. My mom who is a bit overweight and keeps her hair short has a good job. Her boss values her greatly and it's not because of her looks. If you look around you in life you'll see level of attractiveness is far less important than you think.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In some ways I agree...in other ways, I see it even worse than I see it at TAM in the real world. I definitely agree we can choose where we put our focus.

But Always Alone has been one of the only strong female voices at TAM who has consistently taken on and voiced opposition to some of the meaner things men say around here, and compared to a couple of years ago, I think she has actually made a difference here with some of those meaner messages. She has made some people think a bit more about how they come across, the things they say, and who is listening. To some others she may be coming across as just cranky, who knows...but I know she has earned the respect of a lot of men who before completely blew her off here.

She's a TAM hero, if you ask me. She is questioning the status quo and has been doing so regularly and consistently, and it is actually making a change here for the better.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> In some ways I agree...in other ways, I see it even worse than I see it at TAM in the real world. I definitely agree we can choose where we put our focus.
> 
> But Always Alone has been one of the only strong female voices at TAM who has consistently taken on and voiced opposition to some of the meaner things men say around here, and compared to a couple of years ago, I think she has actually made a difference here with some of those meaner messages. She has made some people think a bit more about how they come across, the things they say, and who is listening. To some others she may be coming across as just cranky, who knows...but I know she has earned the respect of a lot of men who before completely blew her off here.
> 
> She's a TAM hero, if you ask me. She is questioning the status quo and has been doing so regularly and consistently, and it is actually making a change here for the better.


That's very nice. What are some of the changes?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

SA,

I'm glad you posted this. I will try not to be too rambl-y but it happens.

For the reasons you stated in your OP (and ongoing contributions) I do not get myself involved with a lot of posts that bring out the Sensitivity Police. I avoid those posts altogether or leave them when I see that's the inevitable direction they are going.

I'm all for a place that encourages discussion and debate, but there are some people on TAM that get offended at what I consider to be either 1.) very slight things or 2.) TRUTH. This is why I use the handle Satya. Satya = truth. Many people can't handle the truth (to paraphrase a great line), but it has always been my belief that at some point we all must live in that truth we so often are in denial about.

Ever listen to the satirical musical, Avenue Q? One of the songs is, "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist." Of course there will always be people that take offense to a song like that, then there will be people like me who think, "Well, it's pretty true when you think about it." Talk about generalizing in song.

I'm not going to apologize for someone getting offended by my opinions. That's really their issue, not mine. I'm not the kind of person that will just [email protected] on another with my words and with impunity, although I'm also not going to mince them and cover them with treacle. 

SA, You ask the question, how we say things on our minds without them coming out in a bad way?

My opinion is, we can't, nor should we bother. Because at the end of the day, how people respond to our words or actions is NOT OUR PROBLEM. Some people use a filter before they share words, some do not. Every one of us will encounter one of these types in our lives.... should we expect all of them to put things politely to us? That's a very nice thought but my experience tells me the reality is often different.

It is the problem of the person having the issue to do something about it. If in that process, we (the delivery person) feel the need to re-evaluate our delivery or apologize for something, that's one thing, but to pre-emptively walk on eggshells about what we "might" say to hurt another's feelings is a complete waste of energy and forces us into a codependent way of thinking. Always worrying about what might happen, or how things might affect another. We are taking on more responsibility than is our due.

We should learn to allow others to have (or build) the capability to process our words and actions on their own, as adults, and make decisions as to how they feel, how they proceed with those feelings, and how they choose to approach those that have hurt them or how they choose to not confront and carry on. This process is the same for anyone in our life, be it a SO, a friend, an acquaintance, a colleague, a stranger on the street. Everyone should be held to the same standards and expectations of self-soothing, self-preservation, self-validation, and self-awareness. My responsibility is to myself and how I handle that which is thrown at me. It is NOT the responsibility of the person who may have offended me to put something in a more palatable way so that I won't get butthurt. 
My responsibility is not to guess at how others will or won't handle my words and actions and then modify what I was going to do to suit all of those variations of "offense taken."

In the context of this board..... I am 99.9% sure that I have offended someone more than once on this board. I'm also that sure of being unaware of having done so in most of those cases. I'm acutely aware of when I say something with an express purpose. I'm acutely aware of when what I say may produce back lash. I will say it anyway. The "report" button is there for the offended party's convenience.

In real life, there is also a report button, it's called confrontation. Those who have confronted me and called me out on my words or actions have my utmost respect, even if we fundamentally disagree. My SO is one such person... one of the many things I adore about him.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

The problem with stereotypes is that they often create your first impression of someone--so the individual has to "prove" s/he is not the stereotype, rather than someone about whom you make NO assumptions getting to be themselves and not having to prove they "are not x, y, and z." 

Second, it's really hard to prove a negative--"I am not irrational." Stereotypes are difficult to wash out of someone's mind.

All the defense I see of stereotypes is scary. "Probability" has NOTHING to do with stereotypes. Stereotypes are based on socially-constructed behaviors (ie, people behaving in ways that their society expected them to) and has NOTHING to do with inherent qualities. For an example, let's take the common stereotype that "women are emotional." For centuries, women were presumed to be less intelligent and less capable than men--and women learned that acting in certain ways (childlike, more subservient) would be VALUED by the men who assumed they were less intelligent and capable to begin with. The occasional woman who fought against that was labeled "unnatural," and she could face severe consequences (like being accused as a witch). Furthermore, society did not acknowledge that men FEEL emotion quite often--usually anger, b/c that is the only emotion men were allowed to express--and so people assume that b/c a man isn't crying, he isn't emotional and *will* make a "rational" decision. Lots of men make as many "emotional" decisions as some women, and lots of women can and do separate their emotions from their decision-making process. 

Stereotypes are born of ignorance, of a laziness of rational processes that requires "short cuts." Accepting them in anyway is simply taking a mental shortcut--and one with long-term consequences. 

I see the prevalence of stereotyping on an astonishing basis in other forums. The person who writes "Men do this. . ." has a very different mental framework than the one who says, "Some men . . ." or "A guy I know. . . " Start challenging yourself not to accept the occasional "slip" and you will find your world view changes. I had to do this myself, at one point, and it opened up a huge set of assumptions I didn't even realize I had. Don't kid yourself; your use of those "slips" is clear evidence that you rely on stereotypes to the detriment of yourself and everyone you meet who has to prove themselves against your set of assumptions.

Writing off those who use precise language as "the sensitivity police" is itself a form of stereotyping and simply digging in to protect, rather than challenge, the set of assumptions hidden in your subconscious. Again, I challenge you to stop assuming that people who try to use more precise language have a hidden agenda. There is nothing hidden about it--they want you to STOP stereotyping b/c it is dangerous and founded on things that never were true. 

Perpetuating stereotypes is just wrong, b/c they are dangerous. Quit attacking the people who resist that perpetuation, and focus on yourself and how you might be harboring assumptions b/c you think there is a "grain of truth" in stereotypes. There isn't.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Regarding the statement, "men want more sex", that obviously isn't true 100% of the time, but it's probably quite accurate 95% of the time. If I could pick stocks with that kind of reliability, I'd be wealthy beyond my wildest dreams.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I appreciate it when people are sensitive to my feelings. But I probably learn more when they are just themselves, unfiltered.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Brigit said:


> Those are sexual cues that this woman will produce healthy offspring. If you give off those cues men will automatically find you desirable.
> 
> I don't know what you look like. You might be beautiful. IDK But because you seem angry at nature one gets the feeling that you feel you've been wronged by nature in some way.
> 
> (At least that is the feeling I get.)


I'm not angry at men (or anyone) for wanting an attractive partner. I am put off by many of the stereotypes that are constantly expressed here. 

The reason I make comments like "I'm hideous" is that it is the most obvious inference I can draw from stereotypes like:

*A sure thing (as in a woman who is DTF) is always attractive
*Men are not discriminating, any marginally attractive woman is good enough
*Men always want sex, and are always ready for it
*A woman can get laid any time she wants
*Attractive women are hit on all the time 
*Attractive women wouldn't ever get rejected for sex
*all it takes is some marginal indicators of health for a woman to be attractive

Since I have experienced rejection, men who have managed to find my marginal indicators of health unimpressive, and haven't been hit on since the last century, what else can I conclude?

Either I am hideous, or there is some problem with the stereotypes.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

always_alone said:


> I'm not angry at men (or anyone) for wanting an attractive partner. I am put off by many of the stereotypes that are constantly expressed here.
> 
> The reason I make comments like "I'm hideous" is that it is the most obvious inference I can draw from stereotypes like:
> 
> ...


How could you not be hit on if you have a boyfriend? Plus, you say you've gotten unwanted attention because of your chest. So obviously you have been getting hit on or looked at sexually. 

Do you feel you don't get approached enough?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> What she is really saying is "why are women only valued for how they look instead of who they are" and she finds this sad and at times, even cruel. She doesn't just mean herself, she is talking about the whole strange conditioning that happens to both men and women where we are all taught this very limiting way of valuing each other.


Absolutely. And not just those stereotypes about how we look, but also how we behave. For example, stereotypes like

*women with a sexual past are "used", damaged goods (but of course men aren't)
*women are supposed to be submissive; men are supposed to be the "captains"
*women crave to be dominated, even if they won't admit it
*women are emotional, do not think logically, have no interest in solving problems, just in hanging around and whining about them
*women don't know what they want, and cannot be trusted, and should not be listened to
*feminists are evil and have emasculated men, turning them into a pile of wussy pvssies

*men only care about sex and food
*men always want more sex, are always deprived, and women have an obligation to "trade" their desire to be taken care of for sex even though women aren't sexual
*men only care about hot bods; all else about a woman is of marginal importance

And I could go on...

Of course not everyone agrees with these stereotypes, and I am by no means the only one who challenges them or fnds them problematic. But at the same time, some are very entrenched in our culture, and are absolutely not doing anyone any favours.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Brigit said:


> How could you not be hit on if you have a boyfriend? Plus, you say you've gotten unwanted attention because of your chest. So obviously you have been getting hit on or looked at sexually.
> 
> Do you feel you don't get approached enough?


I have been with my SO for 17 years, which counting backwards brings us into the last century. In that period, I'll admit, it's been a non-issue because I'm not at all interested. Before that, however, I was very interested and it was an issue. 

And yes, my tits have garnered some attention over the years. So yes, I have been looked at and hit on, but it was only ever the tits, and since I couldn't really send them out without the rest of me, it wasn't really all that helpful.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> I appreciate it when people are sensitive to my feelings. But I probably learn more when they are just themselves, unfiltered.


For me, it isn't an issue of whether or not people are sensitive to my feelings. It's a question of whether or not what is being said is true.

I mean, it's clear they feel it is, and they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. (And I agree that these opinions can be very eye-opening).

But, well, does that mean the rest of us have to accept it as truth? 

This is where the challenge comes from.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> For me, it isn't an issue of whether or not people are sensitive to my feelings. It's a question of whether or not what is being said is true.
> 
> I mean, it's clear they feel it is, and they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. (And I agree that these opinions can be very eye-opening).
> 
> ...


Of course we do not have to accept it. We get to decide what we believe is true.

Don't you read some stuff here on TAM and just roll your eyes? I sure do. I would never want to live in some of the marriages I read about. But if they make other people happy, then good enough, I guess.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

always_alone said:


> I have been looked at and hit on, but it was only ever the tits, and since I couldn't really send them out without the rest of me, it wasn't really all that helpful.


LOL!!!!

TBH I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. Men wouldn't want to have sex with a gross looking woman with big ones.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> Don't you read some stuff here on TAM and just roll your eyes? I sure do.


Sometimes I even throw in a head shake and suck my teeth.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Sometimes I even throw in a head shake and suck my teeth.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Brigit said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> TBH I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. Men wouldn't want to have sex with a gross looking woman with big ones.


You are very sweet to try to reassure me. But I think you're not quite seeing where I'm coming from.

Take unbelievable's comment for example: all men want more sex, maybe there is one or two exceptions in the universe, but this is a "truth" that he is willing to bank his money on.

There is no doubt in my mind that he believes this to be true, and no doubt in my mind that he would like more sex in his life. But is what he says true for all men? 

This particular stereotype "men are more sexual and want more sex" is repeated here at TAM ad nauseum. It is probably the most widely accepted stereotype here, and there are some certain research studies that are trotted out routinely to establish this as "fact".

Interestingly, these research studies are mostly about measuring how men and women respond when approached by a random stranger and asked for sex.

Huh?!? This is proof positive that men are more sexual? I think not!

But more to the point of what I'm getting at is this: what of all the women here who are desperate for more sex in their lives? What are they to do with this oft-repeated line that it's men who want sex (and the strong implication that if a man doesn't want sex with you, it must be because you are undesirable). 

Such women are dismissed as "outliers". It doesn't matter how many of them there are here looking for answers, their problems are unfathomable in the context of the prevailing stereotype. And this makes many of them afraid to speak out, to speak their truth, for fear of the insult and ridicule that will be heaped upon them.

Those of us who find ourselves on the downside of any commonly held stereotype are often silenced. It takes a certain amount of willingness to stand in the line of fire to challenge these commonly held beliefs, and there are a lot who don't have this wherewithal.

Me, on the other hand? I'm a trouble-maker by nature, and am used to being on the downside of people's stereotypes.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Me, on the other hand? I'm a trouble-maker by nature, and am used to being on the downside of people's stereotypes.


I love trouble-makers. Looking forward to the next battle


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sisters359 said:


> The problem with stereotypes is that they often create your first impression of someone--so the individual has to "prove" s/he is not the stereotype, rather than someone about whom you make NO assumptions getting to be themselves and not having to prove they "are not x, y, and z."
> 
> Second, it's really hard to prove a negative--"I am not irrational." *Stereotypes are difficult to wash out of someone's mind.*


 This is not a hard fact... it depends on the individual... You do not know me of course. . but anyone who does in real life would say I am a warm engaging friendly sort of person.... easy to talk to... I have a way of making people feel comfortable.. . I am very good with introverts .. I can always get them to open up!

TRUE.. Depending on what I see out & about..how someone presents themselves through their TALK (are they loud, obnoxious, carrying on) how they dress, or the crowds they hang with.. Yes.. pictures form in my mind.. But I am also smart enough to know this does not = a broad brush of anything.. If I could highlight this part in bright lights & colors I would, because I feel it has been missed in my posts here. 

After all myself & Husband are older fashioned, on the Conservative side in a # of ways... never go to bars and we went to a strip club a few yrs back... this was out of our element for sure .. .but we still had fun.. we made a friend in there ... he was a swinger.. who would have thought ! he was a nice guy, didn't drink, didn't smoke, had a good job.. Sure wasn't our lifestyle.. but that's OK.. he accepted us.. we accepted him. He bought my husband a Birthday dinner one night. 

If we feel SAFE around someone (and that's always the question).. sometimes it's even a RISK.. I will talk to the DEVIL himself & be OPEN to learning what another is about... I much enjoy getting to know others & being pleasantly surprised to learn of things I might not have thought. 

I've read many posts here how in regards to strangers , how some feel...some are even offended if a stranger talks to them in a grocery line like they should mind their own business or something.. I will admit when I hear someone speak like this.. I stereotype that person rather cold & very unfriendly ....they are not the type of person I would want to even meet eyes with.... I do not SNUB other people for no reason. 

I realize there are many facets to all of us.. and yes.. it is presumptuous to think otherwise.. but this still doesn't erase the fact that 1st impressions have a place... 



> *Stereotypes are born of ignorance, of a laziness of rational processes that requires "short cuts." Accepting them in anyway is simply taking a mental shortcut--and one with long-term consequences.*


 I did my best to explain... and in that what separates the IGNORANT from those who understand we can not, should not PRE-judge anyone.. but as in all things.. we have our opinions.. I am not off put by the idea that many will , upon hearing something about someone, associate other things.. I again.. find this very normal and those who say they NEVER do this ....I have a hard time believing that. 

If you are a Democrat & think Republicans are idiots & hate the Fox news channel ....then upon hearing someone is one .....you will have formed an idea in your head.. just as if you are an Atheist and think all those who ascribe to faith are foolish/ dogmatic ... these people will form an idea in their heads upon hearing the Preacher is coming to visit.. 

I have taken the liberty.. around people who may feel uncomfortable.. to speak something to make them FEEL more comfortable , a breaking of the ice.. because I understand people associate a group one may hang in -as being similar to that group or affiliation ... In it's own way.. I am INVITING an invitation to get to KNOW someone better ....is this not commendable / worthy ? How we should respond ? 



> *I see the prevalence of stereotyping on an astonishing basis in other forums. The person who writes "Men do this. . ." has a very different mental framework than the one who says, "Some men . . ." or "A guy I know. . . " Start challenging yourself not to accept the occasional "slip" and you will find your world view changes. I had to do this myself, at one point, and it opened up a huge set of assumptions I didn't even realize I had.*


 Good advice.. I agree with this. :smthumbup:



> *Writing off those who use precise language as "the sensitivity police" is itself a form of stereotyping and simply digging in to protect, rather than challenge, the set of assumptions hidden in your subconscious. Again, I challenge you to stop assuming that people who try to use more precise language have a hidden agenda. There is nothing hidden about it--they want you to STOP stereotyping b/c it is dangerous and founded on things that never were true.*


 Do you see how silly it all is.. just a difference of opinion and someone will call it "stereotyping"... I feel that's stretching it.. I don't feel anyone has a hidden agenda... 

I do feel ,however, when a new poster shows up here, may have just been blindsided in betrayal, it feels their world is collapsing around them... they may speak things in anger . .. I guess I feel this is understandable to some extent...and we need to focus more so on their pain over a slip of angry words.. .. to calm them... after this has been cooled...we have their attention.. (without correcting them).. then we can better deal with sharing how what they are feeling.. is just NOT always true.. A time & a place sort of thing.. is what I am trying to say.. they are reeling more than we are in the moment....I think we can give them some Grace. 



> *Perpetuating stereotypes is just wrong, b/c they are dangerous. Quit attacking the people who resist that perpetuation, and focus on yourself and how you might be harboring assumptions b/c you think there is a "grain of truth" in stereotypes. There isn't.*


 "Attacking... I'm not angry Sisters .. really.. it's just a subject I felt come up a lot and it was worthy to explore.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

always_alone said:


> But more to the point of what I'm getting at is this: what of all the women here who are desperate for more sex in their lives? What are they to do with this oft-repeated line that it's men who want sex (and the strong implication that if a man doesn't want sex with you, it must be because you are undesirable).
> 
> Such women are dismissed as "outliers". It doesn't matter how many of them there are here looking for answers, their problems are unfathomable in the context of the prevailing stereotype. And this makes many of them afraid to speak out, to speak their truth, for fear of the insult and ridicule that will be heaped upon them.


This is where I really feel I must be cherry-picking. Heck, maybe we both are to an extent? There are certainly lessons and broadening of perspectives that can be gained from TAM but only to those who are open to it for themselves. 

While I do feel I've garnered gleams of 'wisdom' from reading here, it's my husband and our marriage that I will listen to most of all as the main source of understanding. 

And this may be why I choose to cherry-pick. It would take too much of my time, energy and focus otherwise. I'm aware of what experiences and thoughts provoke my consideration in terms of our marriage. I'd feel too bogged down into the depths of interweb opinions otherwise. If I'm able to offer help through my own experience and that clicks with another who is also considering where they're at, that's where I'd rather my energy be focused. 



always_alone said:


> Me, on the other hand? I'm a trouble-maker by nature, and am used to being on the downside of people's stereotypes.


I'm a helper by nature... but used to challenging the way things are done and selective of when and how that occurs.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Different thoughts and experiences I've read here at TAM came to mind that contradicted the stereotypes you have listed. I won't be able to reference them directly but it's along these lines:



always_alone said:


> *A sure thing (as in a woman who is DTF) is always attractive


I've read posts here of some men who find mystery and build-up of attraction as being alluring. 



always_alone said:


> *Men are not discriminating, any marginally attractive woman is good enough


Good enough for... what? Are we both reading a marriage forum? There are quality husbands (and spouses) here whose wives mean the world to them and who they are attracted to. That attraction encompasses various factors unique to their wife.



always_alone said:


> *Men always want sex, and are always ready for it


I've read here that some husbands do not want sex with their wife if they are upset or annoyed with her; harboring resentment. There have been threads acknowledging this, knowing it's disruptive to their marriage and asking how to deal with it. I have also read discussions around physical limitations for some men regarding their sexual appetite. 



always_alone said:


> *A woman can get laid any time she wants


See above. 



always_alone said:


> *Attractive women are hit on all the time


Again I've read of opinions that suggest not to assume this, and have confidence within oneself and beyond the physical to be able to engage with a variety of women/people. I've read of experiences whereby the husband has marveled that his wife doesn't notice the attention she receives as she is so focused on him ....and that is attractive to him.



always_alone said:


> *Attractive women wouldn't ever get rejected for sex


I'm a relatively attractive woman who's posted my own experiences around this and read others' too. Turns out, I learned a hell of a lot about myself in the process. I also have a husband who wanted a healthy sex life and marriage with me too.



always_alone said:


> *all it takes is some marginal indicators of health for a woman to be attractive


Eh? I don't even know what this means. Or care to know, to be honest. 



always_alone said:


> Since I have experienced rejection, men who have managed to find my marginal indicators of health unimpressive, and haven't been hit on since the last century, what else can I conclude?
> 
> Either I am hideous, or there is some problem with the stereotypes.


I'm not naive to the fact that there are, and will be, stereotypes here. I do perhaps question if focusing on them, defensively, is the way forward though. I'm only speaking in terms of the forum. If that's your way, then so be it. 

My motivation of joining TAM was to figure out what was going on with our marriage. It started with me not taking responsibility and mentally pointing the finger of blame his way. Unfortunately I had a stereotype of what and how my husband 'should' be sexually. That stereotype was not reinforced here. It wouldn't take someone just telling me, or reading about, to alter my perception. It was the connection with my husband that achieved that. Turns out 'the problem' was that I needed to learn more about myself, about my husband, about our relationship.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> *But more to the point of what I'm getting at is this: what of all the women here who are desperate for more sex in their lives? What are they to do with this oft-repeated line that it's men who want sex (and the strong implication that if a man doesn't want sex with you, it must be because you are undesirable).*


Ok..I know it's trivial, even ridiculous for me to suggest I FELT like I could relate to this at one time (well a little) .... I just wasn't handling his lower drive over mine RAGING as well as I should have....the near thought of being in a room with a bunch of women whining cause their husbands won't leave them alone would have royally pi$$ed me off...

and Yeah.. it does make you wonder.. "Can't I turn him on anymore ?"..how does one not take this personal.. reaching to our core... Just imaging this on an ongoing basis - the sense of powerlessness in that..it can suck all one's Joy, Zest for living, it's a devastating place no woman wants to go.... and (stereotyping again)...







....I am speaking for myself here ...* I AM MORE EMOTIONAL OVER MY DEAR HUSBAND*.. ... I don't think there is a thing wrong with his however... but yeah.. I wasn't handling it so well.. 

I feel this is *harder* on women over men.. I tried to explain why *I feel* this way in this old thread of MEM's here  .. though you would probably have a different take on this entirely over me. 

Some men are just really messed up.. hooked on Porn/ Lifestyle habit... fear of intimacy.. many of these things were entrenched *before* he even meets a woman.. but she suffers for it....it's NOT OK... I would advise anyone in these shoes to leave the man.. find another willing, wanting, open to intimacy ...this is what marriage was intended for.. 

I think so Highly of the Marriage Bed...suffering with this , so I feel is pure justification to divorce.... it is trampling the vows & betrayal of loving & cherishing...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

heartsbeating said:


> My motivation of joining TAM was to figure out what was going on with our marriage. It started with me not taking responsibility and mentally pointing the finger of blame his way. Unfortunately I had a stereotype of what and how my husband 'should' be sexually. That stereotype was not reinforced here. It wouldn't take someone just telling me, or reading about, to alter my perception. It was the connection with my husband that achieved that. *Turns out 'the problem' was that I needed to learn more about myself, about my husband, about our relationship*.










....I could say all of this too Hearts... I was getting hung up on the stereotype of how men SHOULD BE (Dominant partner & always ready to "take" his wife) .. yeah...I'd feel THIS from the majority of male posters here... jumping out of their pants to do JUST THAT ....though it makes sense.. how many hungry High Drivers post here... 

It was sometimes DIFFICULT for me to read HOW EASY this was for other men ...while mine struggled...... I was pointing fingers too.... I also needed to learn more about my Husband...dig deep into HIS WIRING (which isn't like many other men, those dang stereotypes again!)..so I sought those sort of men out - who preferred the women to be the aggressive...take what she wanted ! 

Thankfully he welcomed this, never pushed me away.. I had to TRUST what he was saying to me, rest in it - over worrying about his Testosterone results .. pushing away my fears he was just trying to keep me happy...after all ...it's his nature to be a pleaser....


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> I'm not naive to the fact that there are, and will be, stereotypes here. I do perhaps question if focusing on them, defensively, is the way forward though. I'm only speaking in terms of the forum. If that's your way, then so be it.
> 
> My motivation of joining TAM was to figure out what was going on with our marriage. It started with me not taking responsibility and mentally pointing the finger of blame his way. Unfortunately I had a stereotype of what and how my husband 'should' be sexually. That stereotype was not reinforced here. It wouldn't take someone just telling me, or reading about, to alter my perception. It was the connection with my husband that achieved that. Turns out 'the problem' was that I needed to learn more about myself, about my husband, about our relationship.


You're right, of course. There is no monolithic voice here, no one stereotype that we all agree with. As Deejo pointed out earlier, sometimes the stereotypes contradict each other, perhaps even nullify each other.

And woe betide anyone who lets random opinion on the internet affect their self-esteem and sense of self.

I too came to TAM to glean some new perspectives. And all I can say is that it has been eye-opening to see some of these stereotypes in action. I challenge them, but at the same time, they sure do explain a lot! 

I mean, people really do think that way... And there is certainly some prevailing views which, when I read them make me realize I'm probably fighting a losing battle. Which, to be sure, is very good information to have, if a little depressing.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

always_alone said:


> I too came to TAM to *glean *some new perspectives.


Ahh... glean... not gleam. Duly noted!

I could play up the stereotype of being a high-school drop out but on this occasion, I shall resist.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Sigh. So many great postings in this thread I'd love to respond to. All these people who post thousands of times: you must read, compose, and think so much faster than I, plus organize your time better. Well just a couple of points.

There have been several comments favoring the use of statements like "*Many* A's are B," over statements like "*All* A's are B." In as much as this is indicitative of open minded humility, I agree. But from my experience that's not necessarily the reason. It might just be a cover used to make a prejudice appear less nasty, along the lines of, "Of course I don't think all {fill in a race, gender, ethnicity, religion} are {fill in something nasty}. I've know a few who aren't that way at all!" 

I also feel there hasn't been a strong enough emphasis on the difference between voluntary and involuntary elements of stereotype. A stereotype based on someone's gender or race seems like a very different thing than a stereotype based upon one's choice of actions, choice of clothing, and so on.

I'll close with one of my favorite quotes relating to this. In his dissent of the supreme court decision _Korematsu v. United States_, Justice Robert Jackson wrote:*"Korematsu, however, has been convicted of an act not commonly a crime. It consists merely of being present in the state whereof he is a citizen....Now, if any fundamental assumption underlies our system, it is that guilt is personal and not inheritable. Even if all of one's antecedents had been convicted of treason, the Constitution forbids its penalties to be visited upon him. But here is an attempt to make an otherwise innocent act a crime merely because this prisoner is the son of parents as to whom he had no choice, and belongs to a race from which there is no way to resign."*​


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Stereotypes aren't always accurate, but in my experience, they usually develop due to a lot of people doing a specific thing, or doing it in a way that makes a big impression. People probably aren't going to say "all 5th graders like Sponge Bob," simply because they know one 5th grader who likes it.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I've been cussed out, screamed at, called everything you can imagine. Never had to go to the Emergency Room due to someone's words. In a free country, people are going to hear words and opinions they don't like. We need to quit playing Word Police and teach our kids (and our adults) to have some resilience. The whole world is not going to encase you in bubble wrap and inoculate you with powdered sugar to protect your feelings. 
If I meet someone who doesn't like men or doesn't like Christians or doesn't like straight people or doesn't like white people or doesn't like cops or doesn't like soldiers, I'll survive. The country is big enough for all of us. It's not our job to teach other people manners. That was the job of their parents. 
If you meet a Klansmen, a Black Panther, a radical feminist, a fundamentalist pastor, an LGBT activist, aren't they all citizens with the same rights you have? You can probably learn something worthwhile from all of them and if you got past their label, you'd probably find something to appreciate and admire about each of them. Let people talk and quit being so sensitive. Nobody promised you an offense-free world.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Simply because it doesn't bother us doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least attempt to be polite and civil when dealing with others.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I've been cussed out, screamed at, called everything you can imagine. Never had to go to the Emergency Room due to someone's words. In a free country, people are going to hear words and opinions they don't like. We need to quit playing Word Police and teach our kids (and our adults) to have some resilience. The whole world is not going to encase you in bubble wrap and inoculate you with powdered sugar to protect your feelings.
> If I meet someone who doesn't like men or doesn't like Christians or doesn't like straight people or doesn't like white people or doesn't like cops or doesn't like soldiers, I'll survive. The country is big enough for all of us. It's not our job to teach other people manners. That was the job of their parents.
> If you meet a Klansmen, a Black Panther, a radical feminist, a fundamentalist pastor, an LGBT activist, aren't they all citizens with the same rights you have? You can probably learn something worthwhile from all of them and if you got past their label, you'd probably find something to appreciate and admire about each of them. Let people talk and quit being so sensitive. Nobody promised you an offense-free world.


It does seem like people get offended mighty easy these days. I hear about comments someone in the public eye made, and everyone is out for an apology and to get them fired. I often wonder if those people are really that offended, or is it just a fun game to play the comment police these days.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

southbound said:


> It does seem like people get offended mighty easy these days. I hear about comments someone in the public eye made, and everyone is out for an apology and to get them fired. I often wonder if those people are really that offended, or is it just a fun game to play the comment police these days.


Or if it is just a media thing? When there are bigger news stories going on, these types of things are not reported on a wide spread basis. But when there aren't bigger news stories, they go looking for and digging up everything and then spot light it as if it is even bigger than it really is.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> In my cop role, I dress like a cop. I act like a cop. I talk like a cop. I ride around in a police car. If someone sees me and makes the assumption that I'm a cop, they could be excused for believing the image I created. In my military role, I do act, dress, and talk the part and observers could be excused for believing the role I deliberately portrayed.
> If someone dresses like an enemy of society, talks like one, acts like one, hangs out with other similar folks, listens to songs that glorify criminals and violence, sports tats that glorify criminals and violence, the rest of us can be excused for believing the image they spend years perfecting.
> Same thing goes for those who go out of their way to appear, act, and talk, like ********, dopers, losers, terrorists, cowboys, bankers, physicians, construction workers, circus clowns, etc. There's not a 13 year old kid that can't go to the mall and pretty accurately identify the other juveniles in the mall, simply by their mannerisms, speech, and dress.


This type of thinking is why stereotyping is dangerous. I, personally, have no concept of what "cops" are like. I might know the poster is a cop or is in the military, but b/c I have no stereotype in my head about their CHARACTER, their INTEGRITY, as a group. I won't jump to any conclusions. I had to sit and think of what might be stereotypes for cops or the military--and the first thing that came to mind was, someone who enjoys helping others. I really cannot come up with other assumptions about the character of people filling these roles.

The second example, kids acting and dressing in the manner of their peer group--wow, what a leap the poster made! Because kids dress a certain way and listen to a certain type of music, you would assume that they actually will demonstrate criminal behavior and lack the morality of honest people? Clearly you have stereotypes in mind and ZERO experience to teach you how terribly dangerous your stereotyping is. I work in a very diverse environment and I can promise you that the way kids dress and talk has NOTHING to do with their character or integrity. Some of the preppie kids do drugs and commit crimes to get those drugs. Some kids dressing like modern day thugs are as honest as the day is long, and challenge themselves daily to be a better person.

The post I quoted is a perfect example of the dangers of stereotyping. The way someone dresses or even the job someone chooses is absolutely no indicator of their true character, and making assumptions about it is just plain ignorance--meant in its most literal sense as in, lack of knowledge.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Stereotypes are partially correct a lot of the time. That's where they come from. Prosecutors call it circumstantial evidence.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> This type of thinking is why stereotyping is dangerous. I, personally, have no concept of what "cops" are like. I might know the poster is a cop or is in the military, but b/c I have no stereotype in my head about their CHARACTER, their INTEGRITY, as a group. I won't jump to any conclusions. I had to sit and think of what might be stereotypes for cops or the military--and the first thing that came to mind was, someone who enjoys helping others. I really cannot come up with other assumptions about the character of people filling these roles.
> 
> The second example, kids acting and dressing in the manner of their peer group--wow, what a leap the poster made! Because kids dress a certain way and listen to a certain type of music, you would assume that they actually will demonstrate criminal behavior and lack the morality of honest people? Clearly you have stereotypes in mind and ZERO experience to teach you how terribly dangerous your stereotyping is. I work in a very diverse environment and I can promise you that the way kids dress and talk has NOTHING to do with their character or integrity. Some of the preppie kids do drugs and commit crimes to get those drugs. Some kids dressing like modern day thugs are as honest as the day is long, and challenge themselves daily to be a better person.
> 
> The post I quoted is a perfect example of the dangers of stereotyping. The way someone dresses or even the job someone chooses is absolutely no indicator of their true character, and making assumptions about it is just plain ignorance--meant in its most literal sense as in, lack of knowledge.


BS. We choose how we dress, how we speak, how we act, whom we associate with, what we listen to, what we read.

If I meet someone wearing a Klan robe, hear them making anti-black racist rants, find anti black racist books in their library, know they attend a blatantly racist church, I can safely assume they are either a racist or an undercover FBI agent desperately trying to pass for a racist. 

"By beholding we become changed." "As a man thinks, so is he." Without ever meeting you, I could go through your house, your car, your phone, and your computer and I'd have a very clear picture of who and what you were. If you have kids, I could talk to your kids and never mention your name and in a few minutes I'd have a pretty good idea about who and what you were. Same thing goes with your friends. 

If you were a murder victim or a fugitive and an investigator wanted to know all they could about you, they'd go through your stuff. They don't need to find your diary. The things you choose to wear, watch, listen to, save, and/or display will give them a good idea of your character. 

People come into the military from all walks of life but in just eight weeks, they are forever changed. Imagine how a few years of exposure to certain messages or people change us.
In a few short years, Nazi propaganda had decent, educated, Christian people throwing Jews into ovens. Especially for kids, what they watch, read, listen to, and how they dress changes how they think. This is why every dictator on earth loves to take control of the education of children. People don't just wake up one morning and decide to be gang bangers, klansmen, ISIS terrorists. 

Cops and the military aren't universally adored. In many countries, they routinely take bribes, steal, kill, and abuse citizens. Even in our own country, professional soldiers weren't always admired. Such people used to be considered drunks and bums who couldn't get real jobs. Same thing used to apply to cops and most government employees. You might have great respect for and faith in cops but many African Americans may not. For a couple centuries, cops weren't their friends. Most stereotypes are based, to some degree, on truth. 

If attire doesn't mean anything, would you report for an interview for an important job in your pajamas or beach wear or a ****tail dress? A clown suit? 

If the first thing that comes to your mind when you see a cop or a soldier is "someone who wants to help others", that's a stereotype. You would form that opinion solely on their appearance because that's the only way you would recognize by sight that they belonged to either profession. If you saw the same cop or soldier in a Klan robe, would you have the same opinion about him/her?


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

sisters359 said:


> ... is why stereotyping is dangerous.





unbelievable said:


> Never had to go to the Emergency Room due to someone's words...In a few short years, Nazi propaganda had decent, educated, Christian people throwing Jews into ovens.


So I'm left not sure whether U's & S359's differences are really more in degree, or in kind. Perhaps an interesting and related question is how they feel about "political correctness" (AKA, "a right to not be offended")?

To quote Salman Rushdie (who knows a thing or two about death threats from being regarded as offensive.)

"Many minorities have made these mistakes in this moment, where they seem to support censorship. They want things to be banned."

Is publishing offensive cartoons more than just rude and to be avoided at all costs, or to be supported at all costs?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bestyet2be said:


> So I'm left not sure whether U's & S359's differences are really more in degree, or in kind. Perhaps an interesting and related question is how they feel about "political correctness" (AKA, "a right to not be offended")?
> 
> To quote Salman Rushdie (who knows a thing or two about death threats from being regarded as offensive.)
> 
> ...


These are good questions.. I feel one of the greatest blessings of Democracy is FREE SPEECH & FREE PRESS...This pretty much sums up how I feel....








...








...just like being banned on forums!

Love Voltaire !!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

bestyet2be said:


> So I'm left not sure whether U's & S359's differences are really more in degree, or in kind. Perhaps an interesting and related question is how they feel about "political correctness" (AKA, "a right to not be offended")?
> 
> To quote Salman Rushdie (who knows a thing or two about death threats from being regarded as offensive.)
> 
> ...


If someone tells me I can't say, read, write, or draw something, it is almost my duty to do as they forbid. The 1st Amendment doesn't exist to protect pleasant, non-offensive speech. It is the right of all free people to be rude and offensive. Trying to silence others is beyond rude and offensive. It's a threat to their liberty.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I support people's right to say anything that is not a threat and that does not require emergency action (fire in a crowded theater), and that does not constitute slander, libel, or the release of private, propriety or classified information. 

(wow, that IS a lot of conditions, but I don't see how to avoid them).

I think it is the government's job to protect the safety of people who engage in free speech. 

Their right to speak does not imply that I can't think that they are idiots because of that speech, nor does it prevent me from speaking out against their speech.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> These are good questions.. I feel one of the greatest blessings of Democracy is FREE SPEECH & FREE PRESS...This pretty much sums up how I feel....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Our Bill of Rights technically restricts government force. That is correct, however, they also embody American values concerning liberty. It would be un-American for the police to arrest you for expressing an opinion but it would be equally un-American for you to ask a corporation to use it's power to silence opinions you don't like. Debate is wonderful. Censorship is not. 

How you go about silencing others really doesn't matter. If you do, you don't value free speech. 

The 4th Amendment forbids the government from stealing my property or invading my privacy but that doesn't mean it's ok for you or a mob to do so.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I heard some people talking today about an incident that reminded me of how stereotypes often get started.

I live in a rural area where the people are friendly and neighborly and don't look upon their neighbors

It seems like when someone moves in from a more urban area from out of state, the first thing they do is start putting up "No Trespassing" signs as though they think someone is going to haul them off. They get excited if you mow an inch over on their area or happen to get a tire on their property. I don't suppose there is a name for this, but we know if someone moves in, it's time for that kind of junk. So, I suppose that is a stereotype, but it has proven to be true many times around here.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Historically, the really ghastly body counts have always been amassed by those who liked to silence others and who felt the need to control public discourse. Those who say offensive things aren't real threats. Those who presume to know what's best for everyone, what words mean and which words constitute "correct" speech, which is the correct viewpoint, are the ones who will stack bodies like cord wood and throw babies into ovens. Those are your Stalins, Husseins, Maos, and Hitlers.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Being on a recent date with a rather racist woman recently has sparked some thoughts in relation to this thread. Quite frankly I consider stereotypes a part of life, and can be fun and ideal banter amongst trusted friends when rapport is established and when people can trust that no one takes them seriously. However, when these stereotypes cross over to justify judgemental attitudes and prejudice... different story. I also consider it one of ways to gauge an individual's personal intelligence, obvious facts remain that human beings are in the end, individuals. When people fail to acknowledge this fact, it just leads to idiocy and sometimes this idiocy can be dangerous as it justified, for example, putting 'das judens into das ofens' in history. As a minority I deal with stereotypes all the time, and I can't say that I don't stereotype either. I do keep my guard up around certain groups of people more than others, and I do put red flags when observing others behavior when I consider their behavior "typical". Despite all this, by acknowledging individuality, I am still able to see one's personal worth without prejudices clouding my perception. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove me otherwise, rather than the other way around. It's much safer and wiser in my opinion, otherwise I doubt I'd be able to function let alone succeed in the multicultural society I live in today.

I don't believe in censorship, people will make up their own minds. By making things forbidden, it'll just push it underground. Ironically, many will even consider the censored information more truthful then the information presented to them publicly. Forbidden fruit is always the sweetest after all. Anyway, in the end, people have a choice to judge based on an individual basis, or discriminate and hold prejudice, just as it is their choice to believe whatever they wish to believe. It is ultimately their choice, and our choice whether or not to associate with such people. Personally I prefer not to, as the saying goes, a rotten apple will eventually rot the whole tree. Regardless everyone has their purpose in life, whether to inspire you, or to show you what not to be like.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> *Being on a recent date with a rather racist woman recently has sparked some thoughts in relation to this thread. Quite frankly I consider stereotypes a part of life, and can be fun and ideal banter amongst trusted friends when rapport is established and when people can trust that no one takes them seriously*.


 I really liked your entire post here & wanted to add some thoughts ...... I feel as you spoke very much.. TRUE... stereotypes are a way of life & we CAN banter among close friends as you spoke here... I've never been one to hang with hard nosed people.. Opinions... we all have them! Open minded we WANT...too Rigid in judgment without cause.. a Black mark! 



> However, when these stereotypes cross over to justify judgemental attitudes and prejudice... different story.* I also consider it one of ways to gauge an individual's personal intelligence, obvious facts remain that human beings are in the end, individuals.* *When people fail to acknowledge this fact, it just leads to idiocy* and sometimes this idiocy can be dangerous as it justified, for example, putting 'das judens into das ofens' in history.


 it has to boggle the rational man's mind-that has any empathy for innocents how blinded we are capable of being to such atrocities ..I really don't know enough about Holocaust history to speak on it in too much depth... 

But a few things...I recall our oldest reading  Night in High school.. hearing of this book.. I took it from him & read it ...cried all the way through... just imaging what he lived / witnessed / Lost.. HELL was HERE.. NOW...- about the survival as a teenager in Nazi death camps, none of his family survived...how does one make sense of this world, his GOD...what is left....these stories NEED told.. Yet history seems to still repeat itself in other ways. doesn't it.. 

I have this book on my shelf...

Our Hands Are Stained with Blood ...it's always bothered me how Christians feel they are this "chosen" remnant"... with these beliefs..."Replacement theology" was born.... Antisemitism..HATE...division.... I am one who thinks we have more in common if we can just look past our creeds...

Though there are things that I am very *cautious* about... BAD behavior where someone could hurt my family, stalk, molest, kill, steal.....Any sort of Criminal record is NOT going to go over well with someone like me.. (though I do realize people can change, some of the most touching real life stories were from those reformed & making a difference, a passion to help others).. unfortunately this seems the rarer path of many. 

I LOVED this movie.. American History X  too much swearing though...but the message.. Tremendous..

IT WAS PARTLY BASED ON THE LIFE OF REFORMED SKINHEAD FRANK MEEINK *>>* Frank Meeink: From Hatred to Harmony - Autobiography of a Recovering Skinhead...he served 3 years in prison for charges related to white supremacist beliefs, is now an accomplished anti-skinhead author and lecturer. 












> *Random Dude said*: As a minority I deal with stereotypes all the time, and I can't say that I don't stereotype either. *I do keep my guard up around certain groups of people more than others, and I do put red flags when observing others behavior when I consider their behavior "typical".*
> 
> * Despite all this, by acknowledging individuality, I am still able to see one's personal worth without prejudices clouding my perception.* I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove me otherwise, rather than the other way around. It's much safer and wiser in my opinion, otherwise I doubt I'd be able to function let alone succeed in the multicultural society I live in today.


 Very good ! :smthumbup:



> *I don't believe in censorship, people will make up their own minds. By making things forbidden, it'll just push it underground. Ironically, many will even consider the censored information more truthful then the information presented to them publicly*.














> *Anyway, in the end, people have a choice to judge based on an individual basis, or discriminate and hold prejudice, just as it is their choice to believe whatever they wish to believe. It is ultimately their choice, and our choice whether or not to associate with such people. Personally I prefer not to, as the saying goes, a rotten apple will eventually rot the whole tree. Regardless everyone has their purpose in life, whether to inspire you, or to show you what not to be like.*


That about sums it up.. doesn't it. 

Focusing on that last part...having a conversation with one of son's GF's earlier....her younger brother got beat up, was taken to the hospital for a concussion.. the KID is ROUGH, he's only 13... someone got ROUGHER with him for a scuffle he got into .... she's telling me she's had some anger issues too (she's very open with me) ...but she's gotten better...*and I SEE IT*...I've been impressed.... I really LIKE the girl.. our son's had a GOOD influence on her...

She's telling me how ANGRY our son was , how she had to hold him back from saying something to this Thug (who's 18) who beat up her little brother.. and I'm like thanking her for doing that [email protected]#$ She's smart, this isn't going to solve anything...

It's like a circle of influence here.. we all matter.. we are someone's puzzle piece to make a difference.. ya know. I want to believe that anyway. I can understand this girl as I was a little angry in my youth.. about my home life.. I see good things... then I'm encouraging HER to inspire that little Brother of hers .. to get a handle on himself...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Heh, well, maybe you give me too much credit SA, you do know my history and childhood as well, in many ways I have not changed, as I only found new ways to get away with my violent tendencies. Regardless I focus my hatred always on the individual, as I do not believe in harming innocents, not any longer anyway.

As for the holocaust, ironically despite my views I understand very well how it feels to hate a race enough to want it wiped out or if possible, taken out and kept out of positions of power. Hatred is powerful, and can easily override rational thought, especially when minds are vulnerable when young. Racial and cultural supremacy was a phase I also went through in life, and I wouldn't say it was entirely a negative experience as it has given me insight and allowed me to understand the thoughts and feelings of many nationalists and supremacists of other races. Despite the feelings and thoughts of supremacy I still can't say I've ever been one to ignore the exceptions to my own generalisations, which helped lead me to eliminate all traces of it from my mentality today. It was also my ex-wife who helped me bypass alot of these racial thoughts through the virtue of her individuality, the individualistic mindset that I have adopted to this day.

The irony of this, is that by having lived it, I've been my own bad apple in many ways.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> *Heh, well, maybe you give me too much credit SA, you do know my history and childhood as well, in many ways I have not changed, as I only found new ways to get away with my violent tendencies. Regardless I focus my hatred always on the individual, as I do not believe in harming innocents, not any longer anyway*.


 Yes.. I'm aware of your History..and you know I don't exactly hold Bad boys in any high esteem.. I pretty much stereotype all of them (DANGER DANGER !!).....but even they are so varied..

I don't know...there are many things you say -I THINK LIKE THAT TOO... that's all.. Not sure what your Violent tendencies are supposed to mean.. you don't seem to be someone who manipulates others..always a "straight shooter"...let the chips fall where they may...even with your Friends with Benefits -you let them know upfront if they feel a pang of attachment, you'll DROP THEM immediately!... There is some respect in that.. Manipulators are WORSE, they lie & hide for selfish gain. 

I care mostly about *the innocent.* ...Husband was called in for Jury Duty yrs ago.. .. here the Defense Attorney interrogated him right in front of this murderer...I guess they got so frustrated with him (my husband) they threw him out saying "get him out of here"....as he basically showed he's more likely to side with the Cops... He comes home & says to me...."well he just killed one of his cronies.. it's not like it was an innocent person".. I guess this is our mindset..and others may take offense to that.... I just can't stand when an innocent person is harmed.. It makes me want to SCREAM....the Injustice of it ... You seem to care about the innocents.. that speaks to me. 

I do separate the good hearted , the well intention-ed, those who would stand up for the innocent...in very high regard... but if you manipulate , harm & use someone like that.. You are the scum of the earth to me... 



> *As for the holocaust, ironically despite my views I understand very well how it feels to hate a race enough to want it wiped out or if possible, taken out and kept out of positions of power. Hatred is powerful, and can easily override rational thought, especially when minds are vulnerable when young*.


 It's not something I relate to so much, the USA is the Melting Pot...though true....we'd never want to live in any CRIME ridden areas....where Gangs are rampant, drug use, killings every day.. to me, those are areas of HELL... I do feel bad for any decent person born there.. unfortunately many grow up with the same mindset.. it's an awful thing. 



> Racial and cultural supremacy was a phase I also went through in life, and I wouldn't say it was entirely a negative experience as it has given me insight and allowed me to understand the thoughts and feelings of many nationalists and supremacists of other races. *Despite the feelings and thoughts of supremacy I still can't say I've ever been one to ignore the exceptions to my own generalisations, which helped lead me to eliminate all traces of it from my mentality today. It was also my ex-wife who helped me bypass alot of these racial thoughts through the virtue of her individuality, the individualistic mindset that I have adopted to this day.*


 Caribbean Man (long gone now from TAM), which I much respected has spoken like this - in regards to his past.. and has used it for GOOD today , he mentors teens.... Always impressed by how your Ex had that sort of influence on you also..


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Haha, my recent date was actually a solicitor for criminal law, and I also had problems with her belief that "everyone is entitled to a fair defence" when I questioned her in regards to whether she has ever turned down a case when she knew her client was guilty. Still, it would be rather hypocritical of me to judge her as it's a game unfortunately, a game I learnt to play to get my way as well. For over ten years now I have obeyed the confines of the law, but know how to skim its boundaries and still get what I want. It's a joke to me.

Nationalists and supremacists aren't exactly simple criminals living in ghetto areas and such. There are those who are sheep and those who are shepherds. The sheep comprise the majority, stereotypical "skinheads" and such, while the shepherds are quite intelligent and actually do have understandable views in regards to racial/cultural preservation and to keep their ancestrial legacy alive admist what they perceive as threats. These are more nationalists then supremists, and many of which also refuse stereotypical views, which can be rather curious. However, I always found it rather curious how they can actually deny the contributions of those who have built the country and to claim all credit for themselves, to use as a justification to preserve their privilege. The sheep however, such as recent date, are simply beneath recognition.

The cure for nationalism/supremism, as it was for me, was not only accepting the fact that human beings are individuals, but also by adopting individualism itself. By freeing myself from the perceived responsibilities of upholding my race or legacy I freed myself from supremist and racial thoughts, and was able to acknowledge my real responsibilities as a human being, as a husband, and as a father. It was quite liberating actually.


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