# I am the OW, and don't deserve advice



## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

You and she have a lot in common. You both have low self-esteem. Her to put up with a cheater, and you to put up with a coward and a liar.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> You and she have a lot in common. You both have low self-esteem. Her to put up with a cheater, and you to put up with a coward and a liar.


Fair enough. I will admit, to get involved with someone else's husband was not a "smooth relationship choice". I appreciate the reply.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

brave of you to post here. IMHO you are not in a healthy relationship, nor one that has much of a future. 
I don't know the man except from what you've posted but he sounds like a guy who is "having his cake and eating it too" and is taking advantage of both his wife and you.
Why does he continue with you? Because you and his wife allow it and he gets the pleasure of whatever satisfactions - physical, emotional, ego stroking - that you give him and then goes home for more from his wife.
I'd have to say if he genuinely loves you very much, then what is he still doing married? If he loves his wife, what is he still doing with you?
I don't buy that he genuinely loves either of you. I do buy that he loves himself. But maybe there is more to your story than what you've shared.


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## Goodgrl (Jun 21, 2013)

I have a few questions, don't you want your own marriage & your own man to share your life with. I mean she was good enough to marry so regardless of what he says she has some qualities. Marriage is a relationship worth fighting for, something you don't just give up on. The other question is why do you put up with it & continue to accept being the OW.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

I put up with it simply because I love him. I do want my own relationship with a man who can give me 100% of himself, but I have committed so much of myself to him these past 4 years. 
I agree with Maneo in that he is giving his love to himself. I just.... I don't know what I'm looking for, but I feel I found it in this man who just happened to be married.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

No bashing or judgments from me. I do have some points for you tho.

1. You are choosing to be in a dead end relationship. You know he will not leave his wife and if she gave him an ultimatum he would most likely leave you. Maybe it is money or whatever but he will not leave.

2. You are choosing to be plan B. this is not fair to you and you know it. You do love him but if he really loved you then he would of left his wife for you. But you know this.

3. She stays with him for the same reason you do. You excuse his behavior out if love for him. You put his happiness and well being in front of your own. He is the taker and you are the giver normally with loving people this changes and flows in a dysfunctional one this is static.

4. You want her to leave him so that you can have him to yourself. This is fantasy you are not enough for him now even if she was not in the picture you still would not be enough for him.

5. You have cheated yourself out if 5 years you could of been with a guy who would of treated you as plan A. You are just treading water waiting to run out of energy and drown.

6. You are worth loving. You are worth being treasured. You are good enough to be ALL a man needs. You deserve to be Plan A. You deserve to be treated with respect and love. 

Question have you introduced him to your family and friends?


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

My family knows him, yes. Our mutual friends know us as a couple, but do not know he is married. His W has given him an ultimatum three times, and he has always returned to me. You're right, I allow us to stay together by my own actions.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> You and she have a lot in common. You both have low self-esteem. Her to put up with a cheater, and you to put up with a coward and a liar.


OR... the wife is in competition mode and is only hanging on to him so YOU can't have him like she does. 

People cope in their own little ways...


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> OR... the wife is in competition mode and is only hanging on to him so YOU can't have him like she does.


I do not doubt this for a moment.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

By the time you get what you want, you won't even want it. The bond you've created with him is driven by fantasy, secrecy, and the thrill of illicit companionship. Eventually, it will turn into HEAVY domestic baggage that will kill your relationship. And I guarantee that process speeds up a lot IF he decides to leave his wife. 

Anyone who would string two people along like this is not someone you want to build a future and share finances with. Bottom line: It's a lot more difficult for his wife to leave than you, she's got a lot more invested than the relationship. 

The "I've spent so much time already" argument is a weak attempt at justification. Your relationship is a pit of quicksand. If you've already been in it for five minutes and sinking, how is it better to be in it ten minutes with your head under? 

I would advise getting into therapy (my experience has been amazing) and letting go of this toxic relationship. The fact you had the guts to post here means:

A) You have the courage to do the right thing
B) You know you deserve better than this situation


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

perfection said:


> My family knows him, yes. Our mutual friends know us as a couple, but do not know he is married. His W has given him an ultimatum three times, and he has always returned to me. You're right, I allow us to stay together by my own actions.


That is so sad so you are lying to your closest friends and family. Any love that by its byproduct is deception of those you love is not really live but obsession.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

I am not lying to my family. They know he is married.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How old are all the parties involved and how did you meet the OM ?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

You ask about why SHE would stay with him. She sounds pathetic to do so.

How cruel is he to keep cheating on his wife? Go back and lie to her time after time after time? After he took vows with her?

Why would he marry her to begin with? Then stay with her while cheating with you?

What do you see in him? Can you not see that he looks like a low life with no morals? What do you both tell your friends about how you met and how you continue? You both just lie to all of your friends about it? What kind of people do this?

I was not kidding about you and the wife being a lot alike. Both you and the wife look like you are both afraid you can't do any better than this selfish, cowardly excuse for a man.

If you want to know why she stays with him, ask yourself why you stay with him.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Do his wife a favour.
Ask OM to divorce her and continue the relationship with you.
If another OW comes along the way, will he continue to stay with you?
How do you trust a man who says "I love you" to you and remains married to his wife?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

What a shallow man, a man devoid of quality. To start a long-term affair a year into a marriage. This isn't a serious, respectable man. And you wasting your life with someone who is worth so little. Sad for you. Are you jealous of his wife? Do you expect him to leave her?

Did you post here to try to find out why she doesn't kick him to the curb? Or to understand why you stay with such an empty suit? You must be aware that people who know that you are the mistress of a married man consider you pathetic. Many people disapprove, but at the same time, they pity you. You may think it's the wife they pity, but it really isn't. It's you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


She's taken him back because somehow she thinks she doesn't deserve a loyal partner. Her life is driven by fear of being alone. I'm not sure what emotions drive your continued affair with him but it is emotion and not logic.

Sometimes a challenge and competition puts more worth on an object or person than is deserved. You girls sure like the challenge but you know life is a lot better when you feel like a good person. One day you'll see your children's father in their eyes. It would be nice to see the man you love and are married to rather than the man who strung you alone while he was cake eating. Even worse the serial cheater you stole from someone who then has long term affairs while with you.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

perfection said:


> and I have to believe him when he says he loves me.


You really need to be thinking more and feeling less.He said this same thing to his wife and went so far as to take vows with her in front of the community to show how much he meant it...supposedly.Don't let your heart blind you to what your intellect must surely be telling you.I hope you seriously think about leaving this mess behind you and start living a better more fulfilling life for yourself.Take care.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

If you love him, you wouldn't be able to share him for this long. He's having sex with both his wife and you. Sure, he'll tell you it's better with you but you're not in his bedroom. Visualize the two of them making love, him kissing her tenderly and holding her tight. That should be enough for you to start thinking you deserve someone who is only going to give himself to you.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

He will never leave her.
He loves her and has frequent and wild sex as continuous "makeup sex" to prove it. He probably does the same with you.. 

He does not love you. If he did he would have acted long, long ago.

Your burning your life. Wating your love on someone who by his actions proves that he does not love you.

Your four years older and in a holding pattern which he is ddoing his best to hold you in..

End it. Suffer the pain and then find someone single. You will be amazed how good that is! Speaking as a person who was married 25 years and bee single for 2 years.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

How sad. Why would you want to get involved with another woman's husband? Karma is a real killer. 

And he is no prize anyway.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

It puzzles me as to why any woman would want a man who lies to those he says he loves.

Lies show that he respects neither of you and only cares for his own short term physical pleasure.

That aside, as others have pointed out, you are on a one way hide into nothing.

As far as why his wife clings to him. Who knows? Why does it matter? She isn't suddenly going to "let him go", but she is clearly buying a line from him.

This "man" is the source of why his wife takes him back - she trusts him.

Perhaps you should have a long chat with his wife. See where you both stand. Compare notes. Then - and only then - will you see what it really is all about.

I hope you have the courage to do that. It will be a way of redeeming yourself and saving yourself at the same time.

Good luck.


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## hibiscus (Jul 30, 2012)

OP the man does love you and he also loves his wife. He is the kind of man who needs lots of women in his life. The wife is practical and you are the fun one. He is able to separate the two of you. Both of you are letting it happen so its great for him.

I feel very sorry for you and the wife. You both clearly suffer from low esteem.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I only wish both you and the OM's wife could simply walk away. Neither of you need this man in your lives. You already know he is an unfaithful husband. Even if you could "win" him in this current contest, why would you want an unfaithful husband? That sounds like a terrible grand prize to me.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

perfection said:


> I am not lying to my family. They know he is married.


I'm interested in the other side of this 

Apart from yourself you must be under pressure from all those around you?

How does somebody like you deal with this?

Your family what do they think? Are they a family full of cheaters ? Has nobody said in any forceful way what you have been doing is just utterly wrong cruel and despicable to his wife 

Are your family okay with your actions in all this ?

What kind of 'friends' do you have that would encourage this, year in and year out deception. Do you ever stop to think to 'feel' this is so so wrong - or do you not feel that at all?

How do you love somebody like this then? How do you reconcile his continued deceit and cheating with being 'happy' with him? How 

When exactly do you stop wondering about how deliriously wonderful life is with him and not see him for exactly what he is ?

What is it you love about him then ? I'm curious about this.

What are you looking for in all this? He has shown you he loves not you but the nice cosy shag everything life that you both present on a plate to him 

Why do you have such little value of yourself that you would hang on to a relationship that means you are forever a bit part player ?

Should he leave her and come to you will you be completely confident he wlll not 'stray' 

He's king of the cake eaters and he'll be off as soon as he's either with you or back with her
Exactly how do you not see that?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, *and why she continues to take him back.* I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.



Even without children, there is a huge investment that is made into a relationship. Even before marriage, children or cohabitation, if the couple has agreed to exclusivity, then the investment / sacrifice is turning down dates with other people and coordinating free time with your partner. 

when cohabitation ,marriage and children come into the picture, then the investment becomes even greater.

Just like in finance, there is the concept of "sunk costs" in which people will continue to throw good money / time / personal resources after bad and stay with a partner long after the relationship is really dead. Maybe that is what is happening here.

Maybe you and he have a plan. We know now that the mistress of my exBIL got her nursing training paid for by my sister and her husband's household budget. and who knows what else. So it's clear why this mistress was happy to hang on for 6 years before my exBIL asked my sister for a divorce.

but for you, what are you getting for hanging with this guy for 4 years. Is he paying for stuff that you need? 

Are you younger and / or more attractive than the wife? If so, then why can't you find someone as "good" as this guy but who is also single?

Or do you believe that you are soulmates with this guy and no one else will do?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


He doesn't want a committed relationship with you, he has that with his wife.. He wants a good time with you, quick hot sex and some conversation.. perhaps some Chinese food. He tells you he loves you, because that is how he gets you to have sex with him. Not sure if you're aware, but he's a liar... think about that next time he tells you he loves you.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so the wife has such bad self esteem issues that it's akin to battered wife syndrome


that means every time you have a meeting with your MM, every time you have sex with him, every time you sneak around to see him and every text professing love is just as if you took a belt and beat the ever loving sh!t out of her. While you aren't leaving behind physical scars you and your MM abuse and damage this poor women's psyche over and over and over and over and over again.


But I suppose that you likely are too selfish to see it that way. So I will rephrase it in terms that perhaps will get to the core of your being.


You have wasted 4 years of your life as I almost guarantee that this isn't ending well for you and your fairy tale ending is not going to come to pass. If Prince Charming will cheat with his wife, then he will most certainly cheat with you.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Even if this man does leave his wife for you, he will always find someone else to cheat on.

My ex h current w was in the same position you were in. My ex h wanted her and me at the same time. I refuse to share my spouse with another woman, so I left. My ex h tried stopping the divorce and the funny thing was that she moved in 3 days after I left. This left a huge resentment from her towards me.(my ex h and I had a child together) The divorce was final and she got what she wanted..him. It didn't take long for him to find another woman on the side. In fact I know details of 3 affairs he had on her and I guarantee he's had more then just 3 affairs. We've been divorced for 19 years. He will always cheat. Since our child together is grown and he has zero contact with the child, my ex h is finally out of the picture for good.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

people like that are only care about themselves. will tell you what you want to hear so they can continue there shelfish ways.

run run run and learn for you experiance I only see heart ach in your future unless you change and have better moral standards.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Davelli0331 said:


> The answer is really quite simple: Your MM is playing you and his wife. He's got the best of all worlds, and you're both tolerating it because you're so in love with him.
> 
> Also, and I'm very sorry if this is out of line, but isn't this forum called "Talk About Marriage", not "Give Insight About Marriage To OMs/OWs As They Destroy Marriages"?


I agree. I thought this section was called "COPING with Infidelity". But I guess since the doctor cool site is no longer, we're to welcome them here to help them deal with their sadness while killing a marriage.

Hey, that sounds like a new subsection for TAM. Killing a Marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


His W could be cheating too, you might want to get tested for STDs...


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## Daffy-down-dilly (Jun 25, 2013)

Firstly, I am a regular poster here under another name. It's probably not allowed to have two names, but I created this name to share a part of my story that I haven't shared before because it might have clouded the issue and the reason I came here. I would have been reviled, and rightly so, and I didn't want that.

Thirteen years ago, I embarked on an affair with a married man. I knew he was married. I didn't give the wife a second thought. I fancied him. He fancied me. It was a thrill. He had two children. At the time they were two and four. We flirted. After we'd known each other about a month, he turned up the night before I was moving house to help me. That night we kissed for the first time. It didn't take much. We sat next to each other on my sofa and all I said was "I've never kissed a man with a moustache before." That was ALL it took for him to start cheat on his wife. At first it was only a kiss but it very quickly (matter of days) became fully physical.

It started out as a thrill, a challenge, the ego-boost of being so attractive (in my own mind) that I could woo a man away from his wife.

I fell in love. I gave him a year to leave his wife. I said to myself if he hadn't left her in a year, then he never would. Eight months after we started, I got pregnant.

Then it became "If he doesn't leave her when I have the baby, it's over."

It lasted SEVEN YEARS.

I'm amazed she never found out. We weren't exactly subtle. We worked together. Anyone at work could have rung her and told her, but they didn't. There was a book running as to who was the father of my child - he was far and away number one.

I dumped him countless times, only to take him back.

The good things about being a mistress is that you have all the plus points of being in a relationship, spending exciting time with each other, plenty of sex, and none of the bad ones. I never had to wash his pants, or argue about finances, or listen to him snore.

I hardly ever thought about his wife or his kids. I occasionally thought that she would be upset if she found out - but the only consequence for me would be that he would be free to be with me. She was just an annoyance, SHE was the other woman preventing us from being together. It didn't bother me that they slept together, had sex. I knew that when I took him on. I didn't care. I was younger, prettier, slimmer. No doubt when he had sex with her, he was thinking of me anyway. It was just duty sex.

To answer one question that has been posed, my friends and family knew about it. They did not approve, but they also did not interfere. I think they knew that nothing they could say or do would make any difference. I was infatuated.

Finally after seven years, I saw the light and realised I didn't want to live this way any more. My feelings for him were finally fading and I saw him for what he was; a sad, aging, cheating, pathetic man who took his wife's love and stomped all over it for seven years. I ended it.

He still came to see our daughter every week, and he gave me child support - not a lot, but it helped. At first he kept trying to get back together with me, but I refused. I used to just leave them together and go out rnning or go upstairs on the computer till he left. He came to see her, not me. There were times when she would ask why Mummy and Daddy didn't live together and I would just tell her that sometimes parents don't live together, but what is important is that we both love her. I dreaded telling her the truth when she was older.

A short time after, I met the man who I would later marry. I thought he was wonderful. He was kind, loving, charming, everything I wanted in a man. Two and a half years into our marriage he cheated on me; two affairs one after another.

Devastated doesn't cover it. I had absolutely NO idea how much pain infidelity causes. Finally I fully realised exactly what I had been doing all those years, to that poor woman. In one of my darker moments I felt God was punishing me for my sins - giving me this perfect man who I would fall absolutely, hopelessly, totally in love with, then taking him away from me and having him cheat so God could turn round and say "There. See? THAT'S what it feels like. THAT's what you did."

My daughter is 12 now and she knows about her father. She knows what we did. I stole from her the chance to have a normal family life and I'll never be able to give that back. She is the spitting image of his youngest daughter - well the youngest from his marriage. It's quite scary. He certainly couldn't deny her.

If you can learn anything from my story, it's that there are no winners in this situation. Your lover will not leave his wife. Even after I was married, under mine and my H's roof, my former lover told me he still had feelings for me, during one of his visits to see his daughter. I could click my fingers now and have him in a second. I don't want him. But he has no remorse. He doesn't care what he did to his wife or his children. He just cares about himself and his own gratification.

Get out now. Meet a nice man. Treat him well. And I hope the karma train doesn't get you the way it got me.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

It sounds like everyone involved knows what's going on. 

The wife knows about the OW and puts up with it and the OW knows about the wife.

If everyone agrees as adults that his is how they want to live who cares. You can be like Sister Wives sharing a man. 

OW, if you want a man to yourself, go find one, it's not that hard. 

Personally, I have never wanted to share a man. I would think about STD's and his d**k in another woman every other night and it would gross me out.

I would think once the excitement of the lies and secrecy got to be old and troublesome, you would want to move on and, I don't know,.......GROW UP. 

It seems like a lonely and childish lifestyle unless it really is a SISTER WIFE kind of relationship where everyone is on-board and happy.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

Daffy-down-dilly said:


> Firstly, I am a regular poster here under another name. It's probably not allowed to have two names, but I created this name to share a part of my story that I haven't shared before because it might have clouded the issue and the reason I came here. I would have been reviled, and rightly so, and I didn't want that.
> 
> Thirteen years ago, I embarked on an affair with a married man. I knew he was married. I didn't give the wife a second thought. I fancied him. He fancied me. It was a thrill. He had two children. At the time they were two and four. We flirted. After we'd known each other about a month, he turned up the night before I was moving house to help me. That night we kissed for the first time. It didn't take much. We sat next to each other on my sofa and all I said was "I've never kissed a man with a moustache before." That was ALL it took for him to start cheat on his wife. At first it was only a kiss but it very quickly (matter of days) became fully physical.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you got what you deserved.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, Daffy, now that you've been accepted and your story is out there no longer to be clouded... Who are you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Why are you here? You post a story that is likely to incite some strong negative emotions, create conflict. And your screen name means you see yourself as perfection?

In the unlikely event that you are sincere, I'll be honest. He sees his wife as the woman he lives and you are the piece of a$$ on the side. That's why they stay together and why he will never leave. It's not a pretty picture but its truthful. 

Why waste your time on a MM if you are, as you state, perfection?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Daffy-down-dilly (Jun 25, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Well, Daffy, now that you've been accepted and your story is out there no longer to be clouded... Who are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm - that's not gonna happen, because of responses like this:



> Sounds like you got what you deserved.


Which is deserved, but I'm not ready to face such censure. I am thoroughly ashamed of what I did but I need the help this forum provides without being hated because of my past.

I only posted my story to try to show the OP the devastation it causes, and from a former OW's POV. I've been an OW and also a BS. I know how it feels from both sides. It's hideous.

She needs to walk away. Now.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

Daffy-down-dilly said:


> Firstly, I am a regular poster here under another name. It's probably not allowed to have two names, but I created this name to share a part of my story that I haven't shared before because it might have clouded the issue and the reason I came here. I would have been reviled, and rightly so, and I didn't want that.
> 
> Thirteen years ago, I embarked on an affair with a married man. I knew he was married. I didn't give the wife a second thought. I fancied him. He fancied me. It was a thrill. He had two children. At the time they were two and four. We flirted. After we'd known each other about a month, he turned up the night before I was moving house to help me. That night we kissed for the first time. It didn't take much. We sat next to each other on my sofa and all I said was "I've never kissed a man with a moustache before." That was ALL it took for him to start cheat on his wife. At first it was only a kiss but it very quickly (matter of days) became fully physical.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thank you for sharing this. I hope the OP learns from you, and gets the strength and courage to stop this dead end relationship. Thereby take charge of her life and what she ultimately wants for her future. This MM will continue his selfishness, and just move on to somebody else.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I hear ya Daffy. However, you are right. It is a deserved response. As for being "hated", I think if you've been around long enough, you would see that repentant wayward spouses are quite welcome. Go read the Reconciliation thread or the Wayward thread. Unlike the OP who seems quite selfish to the point of her user name, you're story was filled with regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok your handle is giving me a chuckle. "Perfection?" Really? if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were trolling, especially on a marriage site. 





perfection said:


> His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back.


And so have you.



perfection said:


> I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. .


He continues to be with you because you allow it, just as she does. Both of you have shown him repeatedly that you have no standards. 




perfection said:


> I put up with it simply because I love him.


And so does she. After all, she married him and he married her. 



perfection said:


> I do want my own relationship with a man who can give me 100% of himself


That's not this guy. Which you have known this for 4 years now. 4 years of being the "other." 4 years of being the "side piece."




perfection said:


> His W has given him an ultimatum three times, and he has always returned to me. You're right, I allow us to stay together by my own actions.


Or you mean, he has always returned to her. You keep asking "why does she keep taking him back" but the better question is: why does he keep going back to her? And the answer is very simple:

*Because he wants to.*

Check it: if a man wants to leave his wife, he will. Your guy doesn't. And after 4 years, you still don't seem to get it.

How old are you?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I suggest you get individual counseling.

You are involved in this relationship becuae it protects you from having to have a real relationship, that could lead to the ultimate committment, with a decent man... Inside you feel unworthy of this? Why?


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## Daffy-down-dilly (Jun 25, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> I hear ya Daffy. However, you are right. It is a deserved response. As for being "hated", I think if you've been around long enough, you would see that repentant wayward spouses are quite welcome. Go read the Reconciliation thread or the Wayward thread. Unlike the OP who seems quite selfish to the point of her user name, you're story was filled with regret.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe one day.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I hear ya Daffy. However, you are right. It is a deserved response. As for being "hated", I think if you've been around long enough, you would see that repentant wayward spouses are quite welcome. Go read the Reconciliation thread or the Wayward thread. Unlike the OP who seems quite selfish to the point of her user name, you're story was filled with regret.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


mmm... I found the user name irritating actually considering her story !


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Daffy-down-dilly said:


> Hmm - that's not gonna happen, because of responses like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No hate from me.. sadness for your situation. I like that you are trying to use your experience to help someone else, that's not a selfish thing, that's something a good person does.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Perfection, there's a certain type of cheater out there called a serial cheater. A serial cheater has not remorse for his actions. He (or she) is is narcissist. Their feelings, contentment, excitement, joy, wants, needs are all that matter. They need to be fulfilled regardless of the hurt it might cause others. Here's another interesting statistic. A serial cheater will fight tooth and nail to save their marriage. The operate a double life. This double life is needed to feel complete. If his wife got to the point where she had enough what probably would happen is he would marry you and then have a long term mistress on the side. You will always be sharing him. 

You deserve more. Stand up for yourself and find someone who gives versus takes. Find someone who is capable of monogamy.

Also, if I were ever in such a situation I would make sure that the wife knew everything. I am a BS and I would do nearly anything to just "know".

Best to you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Daffy-down-dilly said:


> . . .
> If you can learn anything from my story, it's that there are no winners in this situation. Your lover will not leave his wife. Even after I was married, under mine and my H's roof, my former lover told me he still had feelings for me, during one of his visits to see his daughter. I could click my fingers now and have him in a second. I don't want him. But he has no remorse. He doesn't care what he did to his wife or his children. He just cares about himself and his own gratification.
> 
> Get out now. Meet a nice man. Treat him well. And I hope the karma train doesn't get you the way it got me.


Generally it's poor choices and not Karma that gets people. You and imperfection likely need the chase and the challenge so much that you overlook character (like him being a cheater). So you end up with fools gold thinking you've changed him.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

OP, 

Since this is a forum that is 100% against cheating, it would be a violation of that principle to help you better continue your affair.

So I'll ask you instead to pass along to the woman whose life you are personally and consciously contributing pain and suffering to:

Please visit tam at Talk About Marriage - The Marriage Advice & Relationship Help Forums. The community of kind and supportive people there will help you deal with your cheating remorseless husband and the other woman that is contributing to destroying your marriage. We will help you gather evidence, and once you have it we will advise you on how to effectively wield Thst evidence to make the affair impossible to continue in the shadows where it lives today. We will advise you on how to protect yourself financially and how to impose consequences on those who have chosen to show hate towards you.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Daffy-down-dilly said:


> Hmm - that's not gonna happen, because of responses like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well credit for posting that it took some balls but I have to say I feel little sympathy and well done the karma bus ! but a serious question though when do you feel ready to face censure? 

What conditions have to be in place that are not now for you to be ready to face any real criticisms for your terrible deeds from before?

You seem to be very aware of what you have done particularly after your own husband cheated on you

I just wish the human race had evolved so that when we **** all over somebody we are 'linked' to feel the same hurt as the ones on the receiving end - then it would most probably never happen ! 

If only........


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

wow !!!!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hi Very! Haven't seen you in forever!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Headspin said:


> mmm... I found the user name irritating actually considering her story !


Absolutely
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Daffy-down-dilly (Jun 25, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Well credit for posting that it took some balls but I have to say I feel little sympathy and well done the karma bus ! but a serious question though when do you feel ready to face censure?
> 
> What conditions have to be in place that are not now for you to be ready to face any real criticisms for your terrible deeds from before?
> 
> ...


Oh boy - I don't know.

In my real world life - people know. My friends, family, my husband and my daughter all know. I have faced censure.

And, yes, when it came out about my WH's affairs, there was a little air of "I told you so" about people. But not too much because they love me and could see I was hurting.

I cam here for support from my WH's infidelity and I knew fine well that if I posted my full story, it would be too clouded over with "Well, you deserved it" that I wouldn't get the advice I needed. I'm not saying that was wrong, but my hurt and need for support was genuine and separate from my past actions. I have told our MC though.

I'm not sure what the benefit for anyone would be from me laying myself open to censure at this point.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

eh... Sorry, this thread is bringing out the worst in me. I think I'll step out.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Davelli0331 said:


> If there's one group of people in this world I feel absolutely no responsibility to regarding being censured or "facing the music", it's Internet Strangers.
> 
> Daffy-down-dilly sounds as if she's paid her price and in spades. Perhaps we should focus on the OP who, you know, isn't remorseful and doesn't care what she's doing or who she's hurting?


Precisely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I have a guy in counseling who carried on an A with an older women for abou 15 years. He loved it during the time. His father told him to stop, he didn't. His M survived, but he has many regrets and has serious issues about it. He has been M for about 40 years and the A was early in his M so he has been away from the OW for over 25 years and it still haunts him. The OW developed a serious mental illness and it became quite severe and she had to be committed several times. He said she was one of the sexiest women he ever knew and gave him everything he wanted at the time. 

I have yet to find one person who I have had in counseling since the 80's who felt good about the A in the end. The first case I dealt with in the 80's was an Army Officer who had severe depression due to guilt about his A. Two of his senior Officers were concerned about his depression and asked me to work with him. That was my first case dealing with infidelity. Currently I am dealing with three Veterans who have had A's and all of them have issues about what they did and wished that they had never stepped over the line. One Veteran in particular felt it was his right to have an A and he had a long term one. As he is now facing death due to an incurable illness he is now expressing regret at his actions. When i first met with him he talked about his A like it was nothing and he felt entitled. He has since been diagnosed with an incurable illness and he is now singing a new tune. He is now facing death and he is filled with guilt about it. His wife is not doing very much for him as she knew about his A and asked him many times to stop. He complained to me that he is now facing a very serious illness and his wife and grown daughters hardly speak to him. He says he brought this on himself and now understands the damage he has caused, but he still wants to make it right. I doubt he can. I met with his wife once and she is a closed book and I really don't blame her. And where is his long time lover? She is gone.

All I can say is that over the years in counseling and among my friends in the Army I have yet to see a relationship last that started from an A. I thought about it while writing my responce and I can remeber over a dozen of my Army friends who either got involved with a M woman and later M them or left their wives to M an A partner. I remeber one friend in particular. His wife had an A with the same man almost their entire M. He was clueless, I knew her fairly well. He was having an A. After 18 years of M they D. He then married his A partner. I knew her fairly well too as she would see me for counseling. She filed for D when she found out her husband (my firend) was cheating on her. During his M to this woman we would sometimes travel together and I never once suspected him of cheating on her. 

I will also say this, that many of the Veterans that I see for counseling will say that one of their biggest regrets is that they D their first wife. I rarely hear a Veteran say I am so glad we got D. Maybe at the time they were saying something different but years later I see many Veterans having regrets. 

The person you and your lover are hurting is his wife. To me this is just so unfair to her. Why she takes him back? Ask her, I am sure she would love to sit down with you and her husband and explain it.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Hi Very! Haven't seen you in forever!


Hey Jelly ~
I am back.
Hope you are well.
VH


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I would think your #1 worry should be that his wife smartened up and dumps him, and takes him to the cleaners.

Then you'll be stuck full time with this broke cheating looser. 

His wife will be free from him and she can upgrade to a great guy.

You on the other hand will be listening to him complain about the diviorce, his nasty ex, his broke he is.

And most likely he will find you boring because you'll be the ball and chain with demands that he now actually be in your life instead of just your bed when he wants some.

Then he'll get busy finding the next chick who doesn't mind only being the easy sex provider on the side. Cause babe, if they'll cheat with you, they will ALWYS cheat on you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> I have yet to find one person who I have had in counseling since the 80's who felt good about the A in the end.
> 
> Currently I am dealing with three Veterans who have had A's and all of them have issues about what they did and wished that they had never stepped over the line.


For those of you that know my story, I had an affair and it is absolutely one of my biggest regrets in my life. There are no winners. The one consistent thing we see and what I can personally attest to is exactly what Thor said. Not one person feels good about it. It's awful.



Thorburn said:


> I will also say this, that many of the Veterans that I see for counseling will say that one of their biggest regrets is that they D their first wife.


Interesting.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> Hey Jelly ~
> I am back.
> Hope you are well.
> VH


I am and hope you are too!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So, anyone who knows me knows that I am about to post my standard primal scream, which is 'why in God's name do people do things like this to innocent children?'

OP has no children and her awful AP has none - YET. But he will have children with his BW, and Daffy has a 12-yo daughter whose father can't even openly acknowledge her. That innocent child is a sure source of soul-killing pain to the WH's wife and children, one of whom appears to look exactly like her love child half-sister.

These are realities that bend and destroy these children's psyches for life. And for what? Some meaningless gratification of ego. I'm just a stranger on the internet, but it hurts my heart to think of these kids and it enrages me to think that the parents willfully do these things to them.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

perfection said:


> I put up with it simply because I love him. I do want my own relationship with a man who can give me 100% of himself, but I have committed so much of myself to him these past 4 years.
> I agree with Maneo in that he is giving his love to himself. I just.... I don't know what I'm looking for, but I feel I found it in this man who just happened to be married.


Perfection,

He's never going to leave his wife. You have 4 years of proof. Know that before you look any further.

1. Can you live your life this way? Always being the OW. Always being second fiddle in regards to vacations, time spent, date nights etc.

2. Can you accept your relationship being wholly based upon your partners "convenience"? If he has something demanding at home, he's obviously not coming over.

Not exactly the same situation, but I have a friend who had a boyfriend for 7 years. They lived together for 4 years but he NEVER brought up marriage. And she didn't want to "push it". But finally after 7 years she brought it up. He was 100% certain he'd never get married. They ended up breaking up because she wanted to move forward, marriage, kids etc. And it wasn't going to happen with him. Did she love him...obviously, but she still wasted 7 YEARS of her life. Now she's in her mid 30's and is engaged to a great guy who's TRULY made for her. They're going to get married next year. and start trying for kids.

Imagine if she had that 7 years back. 

Take control of your life. Stop being an accessory to use when it's convenient.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


I get the feeling from your post that you are maybe starting to see things from a little different perspective, and maybe some understanding could help you to start moving away from your situation..? 

You are questioning the wife's motivation for taking a cheater back again and again. My now ex H did the same thing, he divorced me to go back to his first wife, who he divorced over her cheating (and drug use)...she continued to cheat on him while they were reconciling. So what did he do? He remarried her. :scratchhead: Who the hell does that? What is the motivation? It isnt love. Pretty sure with him that it is familiar suffering, because they had been together for so long. When the two of them were married before, he fell in love with another woman who he had an affair with for around 3 years. (she was not aware of the duration of the affair) I asked her once, WHY in the world did she stay with him when he loved someone else?? Her answer? "Because I loved him unconditionally". REALLY?? Im sorry, but THAT is not love, that is a complete lack of self worth! And I think THAT is exactly what is going on with your MM's W. She has so little value for herself that she would rather keep a man who disrespects her than to be alone. 

His motivation? Thats pretty simple. MORE PU$$Y. Ego. Self-centeredness. 

I think the motivation you should be concentrating on is yours. This man is a low life. If he were to leave his wife and continue a relationship with you, he will do exactly the same thing to you. (my ex did it to me, after cheating on his first wife!) Or, if you dump him, as you should, he will be on to finding his next affair partner before your dust even clears. You mean nothing to him but a piece of ass. I hope being here means that you are ready to do better for your life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You and his wife are in abusive relationships with him. 

Don't be. You should both get together and kick him out of your lives. 

You do realise he is probably cheating on both of you with a third, fourth, fifth woman?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Post and run?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Post and run?


Figures!! Just stick around long enough to pick the scab off of peoples wounds. I hope he has someone else he's f*cking besides her, that way she can see how much he "loves" her when she finds out he's cheating on her too!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

life is ulgy sometimes.

and these stories are just crazy crazy crazy.

pure shelfishness boarding on down right evil.

such a sad sad sad state of affiras. 


makes me wonder how someone could do this stuff to another person let alone some one they said they loved.


warning to everybody out there.

words are just that words..... don't be fooled by them always make sure their words are backed up by their actions. and when things don't jive get the F*** out and this is true with all relationships. marriage,friends and relitives.

ulgyness is all around. open your eyes and take notice. advoid it at all costs!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Post and run?


There are a few of these hot topic single posts around. Makes me think we're talking to ourselves. If perfection comes back I hope she reads Daffy's first posts.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Maybe we are!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Lets not jump to conclusions, not everyone is glued to their computer, like me, at work, 8 hours a day...LOL!


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## Daffy-down-dilly (Jun 25, 2013)

Meh - I unburdened for nothing. Oh well, back to your regularly scheduled poster.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> Lets not jump to conclusions, not everyone is glued to their computer, like me, at work, 8 hours a day...LOL!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

perfection said:


> Help me to understand.


You don't have self respect, therefore you don't know how to respect others. If not why do you are happy hiding the fact this man is married to your friends?
This man is a hard core cake eater what means that he's likely cheating on your with other women too.
If you eventually accomplish your mission at wrecking this marriage (for whever reason... as BW finnaly seeing the light and dumping his sorry ass) you probably will get him only to see he will cheat on you. It's a given, you know, deep down know it. Having cake on the side is what "works" for him. Beyond the moral failure it's a deeply ingrained intimacy problem, he will never feel "complete" in a exclusive relationship, he will always have an OW which can be you or anyone else. The faces of "main relationship" and "OW" are perfectly replaceable but the roles need to be there for him to function. 
The Unified Theory of Cake

Why his BW stays with him? Google *gaslighting*, try a few entries. You are a "victim" of this too as much if your own delusions. I will never get how you think he lies only to her wife but is honest to you. Are you special?

What a waste of time and energies. What a shame you don't feel any kind of empathy for the pain you personaly inflict on this woman, a fellow human being.


Just a question
Why do you think your family has so low standars for you? Why they believe you can just share a man instead having a real relationship. They surely don't see you as "perfection". Why?


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

Hey, how exactly are you different from her? You want to act superior to the betrayed wife, as in -- gee, she KNOWS he is a cheater, and yet she takes him back! 

Hello, "perfection" -- so do YOU.

Someone posted you over to my site on the unified theory of cake, also take a look at The Humiliating Dance of ‘Pick Me’! -- you're doing the "pick me" dance. You're locked in a competition with the wife and the only one who wins in this sick game is the guy. He gets cake. He likes it like that. And he'll lie to both of you to maintain cake.

Here is one way you are different from the betrayed wife -- she thought he made a commitment to her. And she's probably being gaslighted. You suffer no such illusions. You knew he was married. 

IMO, you both need to walk away from this loser. And you need to ask yourself why you would waste four years of your life with this man, and have so little empathy for that woman. She doesn't deserve this.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

The OP reminds me of the dog that chases cars. What would he do with one if he caught one? Its not like he could drive it. She stays with him because she hopes one day that his wife will have enough and divorce him. Then they can be together. Except that she wouldn't know what to do with him if she got him. Its not like they have a real relationship. So what's the end game? What a waste. Pathetic, just pathetic.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

How about we NOT post here til the OP comes back. Daffy didn't need to unload, but she did cuz at least she's got "balls". But this ain't about her, it's about some chick asking for empathy while she bangs a married guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

And Dig states it clearly. 

Let's leave the focus on the OP - who has nicely stirred the pot and now exited the building. 

I'd like to know what she was looking for when she came here.

I find the screen name + story = suspect.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

A Perfectionist has various symtoms and one is low self-esteem. Makes sense to me in my counseling world that a perfectionist cheats due to poor self image and perhaps other traits of a perfectionist is wanting to win. But in the end a perfectionist is self abusing. Just as there are no real winners in an A, it is self abuse and abuse of others.


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## akashNil (May 20, 2012)

Please let me make some guesses.

Most probably, you two have a good age difference. Probably initially he charmed you with all his tactics, and you misunderstood it as TRUE LOVE. Of course, it is true from your side. 

You also expected him to leave his wife at some point in time, which never happened. 

In any case, now it seems that you have second thoughts about your, ..., love. Still, there is some guilt component in your thoughts - like staying with him is wrong, ethically. Leaving him is also (arguably) wrong, emotionally. You might be feeling like committed.

But you know, this relationship is unhealthy, unethical and against all religious principles. 

Just come out of it. Not slowly. Not with mutual consent and with good feelings and all that.

JUST STOP IT ! Get your own man that you deserve. Best of luck. There are really good men out there - like many here on TAM.


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## CarrieOn (Jun 19, 2013)

Hello. I think you can answer your own questions but asking them of yourself. For instance (in bold):



perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. *Why do you continue with him? Why do you continue to take him back? *I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. *There you go. I assume she loves him very much, and has to believe him when he says he lovers her.* I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time?* And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Has he told you he is going to leave her? Or otherwise lied to you or done anything that required you to forgive him for? If so then she probably forgives him for the same reason you do. Love and blindness and hope.* Help me to understand.


I think it's odd that you ask why does SHE stay with him instead of why do YOU stay with him? She is married to him and has, I assume, the "rights" of a wife in terms of living with him, spending the night with him, being his wife in public, etc., and you are more like his dirty little side secret. (This is a stereotype of course but unless your situation is different, it's probably safe to assume that she has the "wife" position and you have the "mistress" position. Unless being a mistress to the man you love, who stays married to someone else while professing to love you, is something you're into, then why do YOU stay? I honestly think you are focusing on her when you should be focusing on yourself. Who knows why she does what she does (likely love and wedding vows and the promise if their future together etc.), but why do you do what you do? Your motivations are probably very much the same as hers, except it's sad to me because he never made vows to you or promised to be with you until death do you part, yet you hang on and wonder why SHE does. I am not trying to judge you, I just think it's a very sad situation for you to stay with a married man for 4 years and wonder why his wife stays with him.  Lucky married man LOL.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

There is also the point that despite having been caught 3 times, which means 3 chances to leave his wife, he still doesn't, which means he values being with her more than he values you.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> A Perfectionist has various symtoms and one is low self-esteem. Makes sense to me in my counseling world that a perfectionist cheats due to poor self image and perhaps other traits of a perfectionist is wanting to win. But in the end a perfectionist is self abusing. Just as there are no real winners in an A, it is self abuse and abuse of others.


Oh wow...thank you for this. Even though people call me weird, I have always disliked perfection (other than at work). Agree with poor self-image of many APs as confirmed by Daffy. It is so sad that many women still think that she is desirable because a married man is sleeping with her. From what I know about cheaters: if they want to cheat on their spouse, they will. It's either you or someone else saying yes to them. Seeking for validation of your desirability from a cheater is oxymoronic. They actually take advantage of your low self-esteem. 

What I find really sickening though is this whole cougar-movement. More and more 40-something women trawling clubs for boytoys? That's just...urgh. Yes sure with cosmetics and money they look more beautiful than ever. A 40-something woman trying to act like a 20-something? They are not fooling anyone. It's just too sad, too pathetic. And there is another type of herds who trawls dating site for married people. IMHO, it's one thing to fall in love with someone you meet regularly on your daily life, it's another to hunt for AP on a dating site. Can you be more pathetic? Seriously. Reading what they complain about, you get a feeling that these women are starving for men's attention. They act like nobody has ever paid them attention before. Suddenly with the right clothes and the right make-up, a little cleavage here, they act as if men's attention (to their cleavage and free porn pictures) is some kind of an achievement. It is mind boggling. Since when being a sex object is something to be proud of? I just want to put it out there...so any APs who think they are so 'special', please wake up. You are special yes, because not many women are willing to degrade themselves. For every AP who think she is hot, there are probably 5 hot and smart women who behave with integrity. Cheaters stands no chance with them, they are too busy dating quality men. Snagging a cheater is not something to be proud of. It's not rocket scientist, show your cleavage and sleep with him. Of course you have him at the snap of your finger. Duh! 

Often we read posts here comparing their looks to the APs. It's understandable. Knowing that you have been betrayed is a blow to one's self-esteem. But I believe with time, BS get over it. Then you go reading on forum supporting APs. They also compare themselves to the BS even though the BS doesn't even know AP exists. Low self-esteem indeed, sad really.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

canuckprincess said:


> Sorry but how do you know he doesn't love the ow, he loves her enough to put his marriage in jeopardy, over and over and over again. That being said I do believe he loves himself more then the two of them combined.


Why is judging the horrible choices made by the OP the wrong thing to do? The work does have thins which are always wrong with no gray area.

Cheating with a married man - 100% clear cut wrong.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

canuckprincess said:


> Sorry but how do you know he doesn't love the ow, he loves her enough to put his marriage in jeopardy, over and over and over again. That being said I do believe he loves himself more then the two of you combined. It's easy to say just end it, but you love him and I understand that. Follow your heart and decide whats best for you. I have a lot of experience in this and if you want some advice not judgement then PM me.


I read somewhere that woman need to feel they are in love with the AP to cheat.. Men need to feel they are NOT in love to cheat, they just want a playmate. Just what I read... sounds about right to me knowing how men are and how women are... If you are an OW, don't fool yourself into thinking the guy loves you. If he gets busted, he'll run for the hills.. that's not love.

What makes you so sure someone wouldn't put a marriage in jeopardy for sex or the thrill of sneaking.. or both? Remember, if this guy says he loves you... he's a known liar... it's been proven.


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## CarrieOn (Jun 19, 2013)

perfection said:


> I put up with it simply because I love him. I do want my own relationship with a man who can give me 100% of himself, but I have committed so much of myself to him these past 4 years.
> I agree with Maneo in that he is giving his love to himself. I just.... I don't know what I'm looking for, but I feel I found it in this man who just happened to be married.


Don't you think this is exactly how she feels??

Put yourself in her shoes and think the same way you're thinking about yourself.

"I put up with his cheating simply because I love him. I do want him to stop seeing her and to give me 100% of himself, but I have committed so much of myself to him these past ___ (more than 4) years, and I took marriage vows before family, friends, and God if I'm religious, and don't want to have to go through divorce.
I agree that he is giving his love to himself. I just... I don't know what I'm looking for, but I feel I found it in the man I married and now he happens to be cheating but I still believe in us."



It just confuses me how you can wonder why she stays with him, when she likely has all the same reasoning you do, and then some, having been with him first and having married him.


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## CarrieOn (Jun 19, 2013)

perfection said:


> My family knows him, yes.* Our mutual friends know us as a couple, but do not know he is married.* His W has given him an ultimatum three times, and he has always returned to me. You're right, I allow us to stay together by my own actions.


His friends don't know he's married? :scratchhead:


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## CarrieOn (Jun 19, 2013)

hibiscus said:


> OP the man does love you and he also loves his wife. He is the kind of man who needs lots of women in his life. The wife is practical and you are the fun one. He is able to separate the two of you. Both of you are letting it happen so its great for him.
> 
> I feel very sorry for you and the wife. You both clearly suffer from low esteem.


Maybe they could have an open marriage/polygamous relationship. Both the wife and the OW seem to be okay with the arrangement of him being married to one and dating the other, and sleeping with both. So why not just make it official? I'm really not trying to be snarky, maybe it's an option. I do not think it would be immoral if all parties know about it and are okay with it. But if he is lying to both of them and going back and forth like a ping pong ball, then they have started lying to themselves by staying with him and thinking it will have a good outcome. The OW is okay with him lying to his wife and doing this to her- she just wants to know why the wife stays. So they should all stop lying to each other and be up front about the true situation -- one guy has two women. Whatever floats their boat.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

bravenewworld said:


> By the time you get what you want, you won't even want it. The bond you've created with him is driven by fantasy, secrecy, and the thrill of illicit companionship. Eventually, it will turn into HEAVY domestic baggage that will kill your relationship. And I guarantee that process speeds up a lot IF he decides to leave his wife.
> 
> Anyone who would string two people along like this is not someone you want to build a future and share finances with. Bottom line: It's a lot more difficult for his wife to leave than you, she's got a lot more invested than the relationship.
> 
> ...


This post is all the advise you need. Read this more than once.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


Just curious, as someone invading a marriage, what do you think of his spouse? Do you ever feel fear? Not of exposure, or your relationship ending, but of his wife? Do you see yourself as a predator? Don't you ever, in a quiet moment of your day, consider that as secure as you feel, as much swagger as you may have, that there are people in this world who's darkness is held back by done frayed scrap of humanity?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I read somewhere that woman need to feel they are in love with the AP to cheat.. Men need to feel they are NOT in love to cheat, they just want a playmate. Just what I read... sounds about right to me knowing how men are and how women are... If you are an OW, don't fool yourself into thinking the guy loves you.


May be true for some, maybe most women, but I've met my share of ladies who just want to get laid just like the guys. There are plenty of women out there who cheat just for thrill of it, and just for the sex. Us guys just hate to admit it.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Brokenshadow said:


> Just curious, as someone invading a marriage, what do you think of his spouse? Do you ever feel fear? Not of exposure, or your relationship ending, but of his wife? Do you see yourself as a predator? Don't you ever, in a quiet moment of your day, consider that as secure as you feel, as much swagger as you may have, that there are people in this world who's darkness is held back by done frayed scrap of humanity?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have often wondered what goes through the OM/OWs mind. 

How can you even entertain the notion of starting something with SOMEONE ELSES SPOUSE??

Seriously??

I don't care what they tell you, I don't care what they do for you, what part of your brain doesn't stop and say "Uh, hey, you are MARRIED and I'm not going there with you".

Is it the thrill of taking someone elses spouse? Because some people are competitive in that very deranged way.

I just don't understand. It is akin to stealing. Yes, it is. YOU are pursuing something that IS NOT FOR YOU TO TAKE! I don't give a crap if they give you the "sexless marriage/almost divorced/insert bullcrap story of your choice here" speech, complete with world's tiniest violin, MARRIED IS MARRIED!

WTF is wrong with people????

(Sorry, crappy day - end rant).


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## mtpromises (May 27, 2013)

Think about all the reasons you're staying with this man and apply them to his wife. That should answer your question.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

perfection said:


> I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it.


He likes to have a second love by the hand. Maybe for sex, maybe for emotional love. Maybe just for the feeling of being the player.

The question you should ask yourself is, why am I continuing with this, why did I start such a relation?

The underlying question is, why did and do you not ask yourself questions like that??


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I don't understand why the OP asked the question "she" did. Seems disingenuous, all things considered.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

perfection said:


> I am the other woman. My MM has been with me for almost 4 years. His 5th year wedding anniversary is coming up. His W has found out about our affair a total of three times, and has continually taken him back. Our affair has never ended. They have no children and are at an age where children just aren't in the picture. I guess my whole motivation to post is to try to wrap my head around why he continues with me, and why she continues to take him back. I just don't understand it. I love him very much, and I have to believe him when he says he loves me. I don't want to be crucified here. I know what we are doing is wrong. But to stray after less than a year of marriage? And to continue with me after all this time? And she forgiving him, not once, not twice, but three times? Help me to understand.


No judgement. 

We all have glass houses 


Relationships are complicated. Love is complicated.

I'll share this:

I was an OW to a MM while in grad school. He constantly told me how much he loved me, wanted me and was going to leave his W for me. She found out about me (actually apologized to me for HIS inappropriate behavior...he was 25 years older than me--me 26/ he 51), but never kicked him out.

Eventually, I needed to end the R.

He might indeed love you, and you, he. 

But... unless you are fine with this arrangement indefinately, you need to make the decision to end it.

He never will (end it); and you will go crazy trying to decipher their motives.

Also, do NOT get caught up in the dagger-throwing about being a "home-wrecker." Many of these men's homes were a hot, stanky- mess before he know the OW existed on the planet (eg. withholding sex, manipulation, verbal abuse, et al.). 

I digress...

If my H had an affair, I wouln't blame the OW. I'd blame he and I.

Peace and love....


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> No judgement.
> 
> We all have glass houses
> 
> ...


He loved having sex with you.. he didn't love you. His home life wasn't so bad, or he'd have left his wife.. he just wanted some on the side, and you provided it. Sorry to burst your bubble. He probably had a great sex life, no verbal abuse, no manipulation.. those are things he told you to get into your pants. Not sure if you caught on, but cheaters lie all the time.. it's what they do. If your H has an affair, you should blame his home for being a hot stanky mess...


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> She found out about me (actually apologized to me for HIS inappropriate behavior...he was 25 years older than me--me 26/ he 51), but never kicked him out.


WHy do you think she apologised for his behaviour? The reason she didn't kick him out is probably because she saw just how he was using you.

I'm glad you got out of that relationship, but I've no idea why you would blame yourself if your husband cheats.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

russell28 said:


> He loved having sex with you.. he didn't love you. His home life wasn't so bad, or he'd have left his wife.. he just wanted some on the side, and you provided it. Sorry to burst your bubble. He probably had a great sex life, no verbal abuse, no manipulation.. those are things he told you to get into your pants. Not sure if you caught on, but cheaters lie all the time.. it's what they do. If your H has an affair, you should blame his home for being a hot stanky mess...


They don't really want you to tell them the truth Russell. That ruins their idea of love.

Which, now that I think about it is pretty sad. Your MM loves you and promises to leave his wife for you and after he gets his fill, he suddenly gets "caught". That simply means he found another one that he enjoys banging more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

persephone71 said:


> Also, do NOT get caught up in the dagger-throwing about being a "home-wrecker." Many of these men's homes were a hot, stanky- mess before he know the OW existed on the planet (eg. withholding sex, manipulation, verbal abuse, et al.).
> 
> I digress...
> 
> ...


Yeah, you digress... and of course you deflect and avoid personal responsability. Obvious for everyone to see.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

russell28 said:


> He loved having sex with you.. he didn't love you. His home life wasn't so bad, or he'd have left his wife.. he just wanted some on the side, and you provided it. Sorry to burst your bubble. He probably had a great sex life, no verbal abuse, no manipulation.. those are things he told you to get into your pants. Not sure if you caught on, but cheaters lie all the time.. it's what they do. If your H has an affair, you should blame his home for being a hot stanky mess...


Russell, they were just sharing their experience. I personally like hearing from AP's because they have insight to things I don't. This is why they do not like to share. You don't know who he felt about her and to attack her for sharing her story isn't nice. Most of us here are angry, bitter, hurt, whatever. But never an excuse to "shine the light" on AP's who come here. Let them talk and share! I want to hear what they have to say in a non challenging environment. Let's take our anger out where it belongs.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> They don't really want you to tell them the truth Russell. That ruins their idea of love.
> 
> Which, now that I think about it is pretty sad. Your MM loves you and promises to leave his wife for you and after he gets his fill, he suddenly gets "caught". That simply means he found another one that he enjoys banging more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So true.. It must also be tough to admit that perhaps the hot stinky mess of a home life story was all fabricated along with the 'love' to get into your pants... I bet she told him that she would never abuse him, or withhold sex.. I bet she'd never manipulate someone who talks so nice to her. Those are things wives do.. not cheating playmates.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

asia said:


> Russell, they were just sharing their experience. I personally like hearing from AP's because they have insight to things I don't. This is why they do not like to share. You don't know who he felt about her and to attack her for sharing her story isn't nice. Most of us here are angry, bitter, hurt, whatever. But never an excuse to "shine the light" on AP's who come here. Let them talk and share! I want to hear what they have to say in a non challenging environment. Let's take our anger out where it belongs.


I reserve the right to call bull when I see it... She can justify her home wrecking all she wants, and I can call it like it is.. a steaming pile of crap. 

I do know how he felt about her... he felt like he needed to stay with his wife, and use her for sex. If he loved her, he'd have left his wife to have a relationship with her that wasn't hidden from the public... 

Perhaps the truth will help this person address her issues, so she doesn't have to lie to herself anymore and won't continue to fill her head with justifications to have affairs. She's just waiting for her H to have one, why? Because she doesn't trust herself.... That's my dime store analysis. Welcome to the Internets, where everyone's an expert...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> I have often wondered what goes through the OM/OWs mind.
> 
> How can you even entertain the notion of starting something with SOMEONE ELSES SPOUSE??
> 
> ...


Low self image.. my wife, housekeeper... Her OM, a maintenance guy, but his GF is a nurse!! wow, she got a guy who's with a nurse! good for her...

Him, he's a maintanence guy, but he's getting a woman who's husband is a professional!! Wow.. he must feel awesome..

This is why they always say they 'trade down'... They do.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

There's a reason relationships started as affairs rarely work. At least why they rarely turn into a monogamous happy marriage. There's a shame and embarassment associated with it. It's even worse when that's not the case because then there's two people who have no guilt about their past and likely will repeat. Although no one likes to admit it during the relationship, they really don't have much admiration or respect for each other.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Folks - the OP has dropped a stink bomb, stirred the pot and exited the building. Without returning, my assumption is that she got the reaction she wanted and is sitting back laughing at everyone fighting among themselves.

There are dozens of people who really want help if you've got the time and energy for other posts.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> He loved having sex with you.. he didn't love you. His home life wasn't so bad, or he'd have left his wife.. he just wanted some on the side, and you provided it. Sorry to burst your bubble. He probably had a great sex life, no verbal abuse, no manipulation.. those are things he told you to get into your pants. Not sure if you caught on, but cheaters lie all the time.. it's what they do. If your H has an affair, you should blame his home for being a hot stanky mess...


Wow...

Ok, um, this was about 15 years ago. I moved on. I'm currently working to R my M with my H. Thanks. 

I was simply giving the OP perspective. That she shouldn't wait for him to make a decision: she should be proactive and leave.

BTW, xMM did leave his wife and ask me to M him. I declined.

Seriously, the bashing here is a bit much.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> WHy do you think she apologised for his behaviour? The reason she didn't kick him out is probably because she saw just how he was using you.
> 
> I'm glad you got out of that relationship, but I've no idea why you would blame yourself if your husband cheats.


Yeah, the R was interesting, to say the least.

I would blame myself ONLY IF I willingly withheld sex, or was in someway not meeting his needs. Perhaps that wasn't well conveyed in my post.

Bottom line: the fault of an A rests with the partner who is doing the cheating.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

Acabado said:


> Yeah, you digress... and of course you deflect and avoid personal responsability. Obvious for everyone to see.


Um...

This was 15 years ago. I only shared this as perspective to the OP: That it is SHE who has to end this.

I accepted my responsiblity in this R., I ended it. xMM later did D and ask me to marry him. I declined. Not sure what's so obvious...

..except that folks love bashing those with opposing experiences.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

persephone71 said:


> Um...
> 
> This was 15 years ago. I only shared this as perspective to the OP: That it is SHE who has to end this.
> 
> ...


Thanks for coming back. I think the OP must have been scared off but appreciate you sharing your story. Why did you decide against marrying him? We rarely hear of stories here on TAM where the WH really does want to leave and not cake eat.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> Um...
> 
> This was 15 years ago. I only shared this as perspective to the OP: That it is SHE who has to end this.
> 
> ...


If I were to guess I would imagine people are objecting to your comment about "Ignore the comments calling you a 'homewrecker'". 

Because you're insinuating that you're _not_ a homewrecker, which is of course a bald-faced lie.

I don't get mad at WS's when they share their stories. I only get angry when people try to diminish the reality of what they've done, or inflate the perceived wickedness of the one they've betrayed. I imagine most people here are like that too. If you don't qualify, or justify, or make stupid excuses, most aren't going to tear you up. 

But you need to understand something, Ma'am. All of us betrayed spouses have evolved extremely effective crap detectors. When we see liars or excuse-spewers, we draw our swords.

So just classify yourself properly and you'll be fine.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

asia said:


> Russell, they were just sharing their experience. I personally like hearing from AP's because they have insight to things I don't. This is why they do not like to share. You don't know who he felt about her and to attack her for sharing her story isn't nice. Most of us here are angry, bitter, hurt, whatever. But never an excuse to "shine the light" on AP's who come here. Let them talk and share! I want to hear what they have to say in a non challenging environment. Let's take our anger out where it belongs.


:iagree:

ironically, folks get 28577-665066-e posts when:

1- they admit to being a WS or OM/W
2- they wish to D
3- they have an opinion contrary to the status quo of those signed in.

yet, when there is a legitimate post for help

1- with reconcilitation
2- or any-other-f* cking-thing-of-importance- folks are silent.

seriously, this forum should be named "talk-about-how-we're-angry-and-bitter-and-need-to-bash-folk-oh..and marriage"

ridiculous.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

asia said:


> Thanks for coming back. I think the OP must have been scared off but appreciate you sharing your story. Why did you decide against marrying him? We rarely hear of stories here on TAM where the WH really does want to leave and not cake eat.


Thanks

Yeah, I've been bashed here before. I guess I'm either a mascochist or not overly concerned. (see above)

I did not M him for many reasons. The primary, I'd moved to another city and moved on. I do still speak with him from time to time. He's remarried.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

persephone71 said:


> seriously, this forum should be named "talk-about-how-we're-angry-and-bitter-and-need-to-bash-folk-oh..and marriage"
> 
> ridiculous.


Why do you keep coming here?


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

Vanguard said:


> But you need to understand something, Ma'am. All of us betrayed spouses have evolved extremely effective crap detectors. When we see liars or excuse-spewers, we draw our swords.
> 
> So just classify yourself properly and you'll be fine.


Um...you assume I haven't been...

My H also had an affair. Yet, I didn't go on a rampage blaming the young hottie who fell from the heavens and landed on his d* ck!

I blamed him.

Ma'am most who have been BS can likewise detect bitterness and the need to attack.

Let's call it. I fold.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

Acabado said:


> Why do you keep coming here?


Coming where? To an open forum? 

Primarily because I saw that the OP was being attacked (as usual). Also, because I had a legitimate issue with my M and sought advice.

My posts might not resonnate with yours, but they violate no rules. If you want me blocked because my viewpoint don't fit your status quo, then report me.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

persephone71 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> ironically, folks get 28577-665066-e posts when:
> 
> ...


lot of posts from people who wronged their spouces looking for verification that what they did wasn't so bad because of this or that.

this board is a GREAT place for HONEST people who want advice from others who have experiance in real life situations. 

this board is not so great for people who want a free pass on their poor behaivor towords the person who they claim to love!


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

Will Kane said it best, darn him!


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> lot of posts from people who wronged their spouces looking for verification that what they did wasn't so bad because of this or that.
> 
> this board is a GREAT place for HONEST people who want advice from others who have experiance in real life situations.
> 
> this board is not so great for people who want a free pass on their poor behaivor towords the person who they claim to love!


So who gets to determine whether someone is sincere or not? We have a person here to almost brags about being a former woman beater and he gets carted around on shoulders and celebrated. She knows her life and has every right to speak it and NOT be attacked. It all sounds so bitter toward strangers. If you are bitter, be bitter in your own life. Don't come here where there are those of us who need encouragement and help (be it BS, WS or former AP). Her MM wanted to marry her, that flys in the face of just being a piece of tail I think. So in my opinion, she has a lot of value to posters like me whose husbands fell in love with their AP. And honestly, these comments to her are just plain rude.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think the core thing is to remember that this community here is pro marriage and anti cheating, and we are not going to get into accepting that there are happy grey areas when cheating is ok, justified, and just an oopsie that happens.

This is very different from what some would like to have which is a welcoming place for WS that never calls cheating bad because that would be rude, and never tells them to stop because that would be pushing a fidelity agenda, etc.

Places like love shack are very accepting of active cheaters, maybe not as supportive of them as the doc was, but they do refuse to actually call out or condemn cheating as compketely unacceptable behavior.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

persephone71 said:


> Coming where? To an open forum?
> 
> Primarily because I saw that the OP was being attacked (as usual). Also, because I had a legitimate issue with my M and sought advice.
> 
> My posts might not resonnate with yours, but they violate no rules. If you want me blocked because my viewpoint don't fit your status quo, then report me.


I asked why coming here becasue you clearly stated:
_seriously, this forum should be named "talk-about-how-we're-angry-and-bitter-and-need-to-bash-folk-oh..and marriage"
ridiculous.
_
I didn't feel insulted by your post nor have any reason to report you, never ocurred to me. Also I'm not a moderator, if you feel good coming here I'm fine with it. It's seems to be you who don't like what most people tell here.

Wish you peace.
I won't keep threadjacking this. If you still want to keep the dialoge please PM me.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> I think the core thing is to remember that this community here is pro marriage and anti cheating, and we are not going to get into accepting that there are happy grey areas when cheating is ok, justified, and just an oopsie that happens.
> 
> This is very different from what some would like to have which is a welcoming place for WS that never calls cheating bad because that would be rude, and never tells them to stop because that would be pushing a fidelity agenda, etc.
> 
> Places like love shack are very accepting of active cheaters, maybe not as supportive of them as the doc was, but they do refuse to actually call out or condemn cheating as compketely unacceptable behavior.


I agree. There are plenty of forums for APs. Some are full of promiscuous nasty cheaters. Some have members of APs that do appear to be tortured falling in love with their MM, or regretting their decision to leave their M. I don't mind if some people call me bitter. Being betrayed tends to make people bitter and jaded about cheaters. As long as I am only bitter toward cheaters, I think I am okay and not even gonna apologize for my stance. If my attitude makes them despise me, all the better. I really am good without cheating partner and friends. 

If a BS post on AP forum, they are quick to point out that it's their sanctuary, don't call them homewreckers, wah wah wah. So, you don't care enough about the spouse of the married person you want to boink/in love with, you don't feel you are responsible because you don't take a vow with them. Well, I don't take a vow with any APs either. I will continue to call it as I see it, tough if they don't like it. Consequences consequences. If their consequence is being called "homewreckers" after the damage they helped inflicted, hah...I guess they get off pretty easy.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

Everafter2013 said:


> I agree. There are plenty of forums for APs. Some are full of promiscuous nasty cheaters. Some have members of APs that do appear to be tortured falling in love with their MM, or regretting their decision to leave their M. I don't mind if some people call me bitter. Being betrayed tends to make people bitter and jaded about cheaters. As long as I am only bitter toward cheaters, I think I am okay and not even gonna apologize for my stance. If my attitude makes them despise me, all the better. I really am good without cheating partner and friends.
> 
> If a BS post on AP forum, they are quick to point out that it's their sanctuary, don't call them homewreckers, wah wah wah. So, you don't care enough about the spouse of the married person you want to boink/in love with, you don't feel you are responsible because you don't take a vow with them. Well, I don't take a vow with any APs either. I will continue to call it as I see it, tough if they don't like it. Consequences consequences. If their consequence is being called "homewreckers" after the damage they helped inflicted, hah...I guess they get off pretty easy.


The additional poster stated she is now a BS and was speaking about a 15 year ago experience and someone called her names. Exactly how is that helpful? She belongs here with those of us who were betrayed, why is turning on her because she blew it years ago a reason to be rude? There is a difference between helping active cheaters which no one here is doing and LISTENING and asking questions without bashing posters.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

persephone71 said:


> No judgement.
> 
> We all have glass houses
> 
> Also, do NOT get caught up in the dagger-throwing about being a "home-wrecker." Many of these men's homes were a hot, stanky- mess before he know the OW existed on the planet (eg. withholding sex, manipulation, verbal abuse, et al.).


Here is where Persephone causes a problem: "Many of these men's homes" she says.

This implies that the betrayed women have "withheld sex", "manipulated" and "verbally abused" their spouse - which has "caused" the affair.

This is a very direct attack on all of the female betrayed spouses. It is an outrageous supposition. The corollary is that betrayed husbands have perhaps done equally bad things to their spouses.

I am replying to this apparent thread jack as I believe this could lead the OP to an incorrect conclusion about her situation.

It is not a "dig" at Persephone, as we all have to make our own beds as it were.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> Wow...
> 
> Ok, um, this was about 15 years ago. I moved on. I'm currently working to R my M with my H. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Is that how you're telling the story these days, he left her and asked you.. How romantic. Did he make up the story about leaving his wife or is that one all you?

..and guess what wrecks a home quicker and with more efficiency than verbal abuse, withholding sex and manipulation?? You!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WTHiswrong (Feb 18, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

asia said:


> So who gets to determine whether someone is sincere or not? We have a person here to almost brags about being a former woman beater and he gets carted around on shoulders and celebrated. She knows her life and has every right to speak it and NOT be attacked. It all sounds so bitter toward strangers. If you are bitter, be bitter in your own life. Don't come here where there are those of us who need encouragement and help (be it BS, WS or former AP). Her MM wanted to marry her, that flys in the face of just being a piece of tail I think. So in my opinion, she has a lot of value to posters like me whose husbands fell in love with their AP. And honestly, these comments to her are just plain rude.


Also, I find it amazing that the ONLY behavior that's obviously wrong is infidelity (or being an Om/W). But I guess calling folks names and berating people is "righteous."

Seriously, I get the pain of being a BSO (been there)....I also get the pain of emotional abuse (obviously that was all MY fault also, according to another post), the guilt of filing for D (yep, I was slammed for that too--I just wanted to go deep in Hs pocket, and force my kids into drug rehab at 10), and the painful road to reconcilitation (ironically, NO ONE here gives a damn about that).

But....you admit (even 15 years ago--and only to give context to the OP that she would best do well to leave the A--after all is said and done, and the xMM wants to M) and OFF WITH YOUR HEAD, YOU HOME-WRECKING TR*MP!!!!

Keep it classy, folks.


----------



## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Is that how you're telling the story these days, he left her and asked you.. How romantic. Did he make up the story about leaving his wife or is that one all you?



Oh, of course not. You know the real story...

So, YOU know what really went down. And....I AM just making up a story because after all....YOU know what when down. :scratchhead:




> ..and guess what wrecks a home quicker and with more efficiency than verbal abuse, withholding sex and manipulation?? You!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



But, I... didn't.... He D'd her well after I'd broken up with him...oh, hell, nevermind I'm lying anyway.

Give it a rest. Please.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

asia said:


> The additional poster stated she is now a BS and was speaking about a 15 year ago experience and someone called her names. Exactly how is that helpful? She belongs here with those of us who were betrayed, why is turning on her because she blew it years ago a reason to be rude? There is a difference between helping active cheaters which no one here is doing and LISTENING and asking questions without bashing posters.


Don't worry about it... Afterall, I'm not really a BSO, my A didn't happen 15 years ago, it happened today...and I also allowed my emotional abuse....and the moon landing was fake.

People need to get one off...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

asia said:


> So who gets to determine whether someone is sincere or not? We have a person here to almost brags about being a former woman beater and he gets carted around on shoulders and celebrated. She knows her life and has every right to speak it and NOT be attacked. It all sounds so bitter toward strangers. If you are bitter, be bitter in your own life. Don't come here where there are those of us who need encouragement and help (be it BS, WS or former AP). Her MM wanted to marry her, that flys in the face of just being a piece of tail I think. So in my opinion, she has a lot of value to posters like me whose husbands fell in love with their AP. And honestly, these comments to her are just plain rude.


yea I agree there was nothing in my post that said differently,

but this is a public forum so take that into account, some might need thicker skin to play on here. or they can cry about being called out on their poor behavior.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Here is where Persephone causes a problem: "Many of these men's homes" she says.
> 
> *This implies that the betrayed women have "withheld sex", "manipulated" and "verbally abused" their spouse - which has "caused" the affair.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the world we live in. Where the _victim_ is to blame, and the perpetrator is some poor, tortured soul who is just crying out for help.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE PERPETRATORS???


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I have the idea there is not so much difference between BS en WS as people would like to believe.

Much is a question of circumstances, and these days the complete existence of free will is even questioned by the brain scientists.

I think at this moment there is a bell curve applying to the amount of free will people have/use. Some do it maximal, some do it minimal. The rest of us wanders in between steered by what happens in our lives.

Besides that there is the notion that the genes steer also a lot of what we do, that is even more a deception of our own imagined Self.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I have the idea there is not so much difference between BS en WS as people would like to believe.
> 
> Much is a question of circumstances, and these days the complete existence of free will is even questioned by the brain scientists.
> 
> ...



Yabut, the spouse has more invested in the relationship the AP. The AP does not have to find new accommodations; new friends and disentangle finances as well as make provisions for the children between. It will always be easier for the AP to leave the relationship than the spouse.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

asia said:


> The additional poster stated she is now a BS and was speaking about a 15 year ago experience and someone called her names. Exactly how is that helpful? She belongs here with those of us who were betrayed, why is turning on her because she blew it years ago a reason to be rude? There is a difference between helping active cheaters which no one here is doing and LISTENING and asking questions without bashing posters.


Asia,

This is not a thread about her experience as a BS. I address her logical fallacy as a former AP. Exactly how "the house is a stinking mess before the affair, the BS withhold sex, manipulate, and abuse" help a BS? Withholding sex, manipulate and abuse are valid reasons for a divorce, but not for an affair. Do you know anyone who has been abused, manipulated and rejected in bedroom who doesn't cheat but choose to divorce? I do. Do you know anyone who doesn't withhold sex, abuse and manipulate but get cheated on anyway? I do. So there is no empirical evidence that X cause Y as she implied. I hope you see that too. 

It doesn't bother me the slightest if people think I am rude to those trying to rationalise their affair. Trust me Asia, it takes a certain kind of person to get involved with a married person, they have thicker skin than you give them credit for. 

This board is full of BS who really don't need an AP to come in here and tell them that the affair was somehow their faults. Those who reconcile feel a lot of anger toward the APs (understandably) but many also point out that it's best to focus on themselves and their marriage. Sure it will be nice to hear how sorry a former WS/AP is, to understand why they did what they did so maybe BS can support the WS to get help and make positive changes. I believe that for a successful reconciliation to happen, the first step is for WS to do the hard work to ensure they won't make the same mistakes again. THEN and only then both WS and BS can work together on the other problems in their relationship. 

Your insistence that others be nicer to APs and former APs, especially those who seem to be in a love affair, so they will stick around and offer their insights was a bit odd to me. So forgive me, I looked up the threads you started...and now I understand why. 

You seem to have abundant amount of patience and tolerance to your WS. I am surprised that, from your post at least, you are also very concerned about APs. You do not say mean things, but (at least by beginning of this year) you felt like you were in a competition with AP. Is that why you seem to value inputs from APs, especially those that seem to be in a love affair? Kinda like keeping your friend close enemy closer?

It is pretty apparent that we have different approach to life. I definitely don’t compete with another woman over a man. If a man must decide between me and another woman, I make the decision for him. I call a cheater a cheater, but I didn’t spend one minute thinking or worrying how to compete with the AP. If I am not good enough for a man…oh well, goodbye no hard feeling (okay, maybe I will cry a river, rejection stings but I’ll live)...I hope he finds a woman who is good enough for him and I a man who thinks I am awesome. If a cheater thinks I am not good enough? I repeat, A CHEATER thinks I am not good enough??? I will burst out laughing at his face. 

I have questions for you. You don’t have to answer me here. Just maybe something you need to ask yourself. Why the focus on competing with AP? Why not on your husband and the steps he has taken to earn your forgiveness? You seemed to be so grateful that he took a family picture, you took it as a sign of his commitment. Seriously? Is that the best he can do to show you his commitment after what he did? Why is it important that the AP knows how much your husband loves you? Isn’t it enough if you and your loved ones know that your husband loves you? Or is it because you are not sure your husband truly loves you? Knowing your marriage may be in jeopardy if AP comes back must be terrible. I cannot imagine how it feels to have a relationship that depends on the action of the third person. So basically, after all the pain you suffer, after all the hard work you are doing to appease your husband (and be more like OW), it means nothing if the real slim shady comes back? Why are you putting yourself through hell like that? Isn’t there any part of you that refuse to live like that? 


I don’t think all infidelities should end in divorce. Sometimes I can see two people who really love each other, love their family, but let a moment of weakness wreck havoc in their lives. It won’t be an easy road, but there are hopes. But if the cheating spouse does not love the BS anymore…not only the BS must deal with the pain and broken heart, look at their children’s eyes and try to explain why mommy is crying, not only their life is turned upside down, they must be jumping through hoops to win the cheating bastard’s heart too??? And on top of that, spend years wondering when the other shoe will drop????

It just too painful for me to read about women who are in a lot of pain and put themselves through more pain. We cannot make a person loves us if they don’t. It doesn’t mean we are not lovable, just not by that particular person. We all have just one shot at living, why spend it with someone who doesn’t love us? So I am going to bow out of this thread. I wish you good luck with your reconciliation.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> Oh, of course not. You know the real story...
> 
> So, YOU know what really went down. And....I AM just making up a story because after all....YOU know what when down. :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


I'll stop with the harshness.. the point I was trying to drive home was that you were 'told' his house was a stinking mess, because that's what cheaters do when they want to cheat, they lie. They tell the other person (and themselves) stuff that isn't true to justify the unacceptable behavior.

You are putting all the blame on the wife of the MM. It's her fault you had an affair because she wasn't nice to her husband, according to what he told you. Give it some thought. He should have left her, then hit on you.. that would be the way to approach it if he was really interested in you. Show you what a stand up guy he is, instead of how he lies and cheats.

These are things you'll need to address to have a healthy relationship with your current H. I wish you both the best.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I'll stop with the harshness.. the point I was trying to drive home was that you were 'told' his house was a stinking mess, because that's what cheaters do when they want to cheat, they lie. They tell the other person (and themselves) stuff that isn't true to justify the unacceptable behavior.
> 
> You are putting all the blame on the wife of the MM. It's her fault you had an affair because she wasn't nice to her husband, according to what he told you. Give it some thought. He should have left her, then hit on you.. that would be the way to approach it if he was really interested in you. Show you what a stand up guy he is, instead of how he lies and cheats.
> 
> These are things you'll need to address to have a healthy relationship with your current H. I wish you both the best.


Thank you for your support of my current R, Russell. 

Allow me to further address my post on this thread.

1- My purpose was to show the OP that although she has an experience that other do not agree, that she was not alone. It was a risk I took. 

2- My experience with my xMM is in the past. 

3- While I do recognize that my words were harsh, they were a DIRECT counter to the barrage of insults against the OP; and myself for acknowedging my A 15 YEARS AGO.

4- I do accept that the fault ultimately lies with the WS and the AP. Yet, there are behaviors within M that can lead one to seek intimacy elsewhere. This is a rather controversial view, I know. 

5- There are indeed things I need to address in my M. And the reality that even with my best attempts, we might eventually end up D'd. 

Ironcially, infidelity is probably 10th on my top 5 things to worry about. As a matter of fact, his A did not make me want to leave him. I also tend to have a rather liberal view of sexuality than most, hence when he had another lover, the sky didn't fall. I ask two qs: Do you love her? Do you wish to be with her? These answers were "No." Nother else was said about it.

It was his other behaviors, which precipitated my D. 

We tend to get so overly caught up on cheating, that other behaviors (eg. abuse, financial irresponsibilty, addiction, et al) are swept under the rug or (as the case on another thread), dismissed as the sole responsiblity of the spouse enduring the abuse, due to poor boundaries). 

So, when a spouse cheats, 100% blame goes to him/her and the AP. Yet, when a spouse is abusive...well, it's because the abuse victim (meaning me and others who've experienced abuse) allowed it. 

That also includes PHYSICAL ABUSE. Yeah, someone actually found an article to PROVE (can't actually prove anything in research) that most women who are victims of IPV PROVOKED THEIR H's..

Talk about pulling off a scab...

Yet, most here were very silent on that.

This is MAJOR issue. Do you not agree?

It is also indicative of the population of this forum. Not a dig at anyone.

My H's A 10 years ago and my R with a MM 15 years ago, pale in comparison to the myriad issues, which served as fractures in my M TODAY. Also, I did NOT file for D based on an A.

6- I have no intention to engage in an internet fight, with you or others for whom at some point I might seek support (or they support for me). 

We are all struggling in our M or intimate relationships. Or, we'd not be here. We are all trying to make sense of life and love. Yet, we are all human. We are all vulnerable. We ALL MAKE mistakes.

And...

Are all worthy of respect, despite our different life experiences. Which might mean, not responding to a thread which is a trigger for ones own pain.

Be well, my friend.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I have the idea there is not so much difference between BS en WS as people would like to believe.
> 
> Much is a question of circumstances, and these days the complete existence of free will is even questioned by the brain scientists.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

"perfection" - And herein lies her level of consciousness, maturity, until Karma comes and puts her in her place. This man's wife should not be competing for "him". She is married to him...She is his wife, has legal rights, he is hers to do as she pleases. This man will never leave his wife for someone who knows he's taken but chooses to sleep with him any way...He can never trust her with his friends, relatives or co-workers. He knows she is a free-for-all and will never commit to someone who doesn't respect herself. You yearn for this man's wife to leave because you are fully aware that he will NOT leave her. He made that clear to you from the get-go and you agreed to those terms. So now you have been compartmentalized by him but didn't know that as a woman, you were not born with that capacity (not naturally). But he KNEW that and took advantage of your not knowing that yet. You need to leave this man alone. He will never leave you because you are compartmentalized meat: He can thaw you out, cook you, and put you back in the fridge for leftovers. His wife is the kitchen. He banks on you remaining this way, so love him all you want, it isn't going to change the fact that the foundation of your relationship was built on deceit and that is an ugly demon to live with. Your choice.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> Yet, there are behaviors within M that can lead one to seek intimacy elsewhere. This is a rather controversial view, I know.


Seeking intimacy elsewhere, while in an M, is a 'behavior within the M'... a very destructive one. It includes verbal abuse "no, I'm not cheating on you", it includes manipulation "I'm going shopping be back in five hours".. it includes withholding sex, from the one you are married to, to give it to someone that doesn't deserve it since they've given you nothing real.

So yea, if she was really abusive to him.. sounds like he was pretty abusive to her too, with help from you. Injecting yourself into an abusive relationship isn't the way to help it. If a man tells you his wife is abusive, get him help.. don't help him abuse his wife to fix things. Two wrongs.. still not making a right.

To summarize... As bad as verbal abuse is to a relationship, as bad as manipulation can be.. nothing rivals the abuse of an A. That one tops the cake. So what his wife was doing to him, was nothing compared to what you and him were doing to her.


As for physical abuse, I can't comment on that.. I've never laid a hand on my wife, and never will. I would suggest anyone who has this issue seek a shelter, or find someone to help that is an expert on the topic. I would not recommend an affair as a solution.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

asia said:


> The additional poster stated she is now a BS and was speaking about a 15 year ago experience and someone called her names. Exactly how is that helpful? She belongs here with those of us who were betrayed, why is turning on her because she blew it years ago a reason to be rude? There is a difference between helping active cheaters which no one here is doing and LISTENING and asking questions without bashing posters.





persephone71 said:


> I did not M him for many reasons. The primary, I'd moved to another city and moved on. I do still speak with him from time to time. He's remarried.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> Oh, of course not. You know the real story...
> 
> So, YOU know what really went down. And....I AM just making up a story because after all....YOU know what when down. :scratchhead:
> 
> ...



What made you end the affair ? How did you meet your OM ?(Professor ? Boss ?)


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> We tend to get so overly caught up on cheating, that other behaviors (eg. abuse, financial irresponsibilty, addiction, et al) are swept under the rug or (as the case on another thread), dismissed as the sole responsiblity of the spouse enduring the abuse, due to poor boundaries).


Actually, this is the same kind of mindset that allowed you cheat with a older man.(an observation rather than attack) You mentioned that yourself in your post.



> Ironcially, infidelity is probably 10th on my top 5 things to worry about. As a matter of fact, his A did not make me want to leave him. I also tend to have a rather liberal view of sexuality than most, hence when he had another lover, the sky didn't fall. I ask two qs: Do you love her? Do you wish to be with her? These answers were "No." Nother else was said about it.


To many, sexual infidelity from their partner is one of the most traumatic events that could happen to them. Go read some of the threads here. You place infidelity 5th on the list. To many BS, it would take the first 10 places and some more. You are doing the same mistake that you are calling out people on.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> :iagree:


Regarding Genetics:

My husband, his brother, his father and his grandfather all had affairs.

Nothing else needs to be said.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Seeking intimacy elsewhere, while in an M, is a 'behavior within the M'... a very destructive one. It includes verbal abuse "no, I'm not cheating on you", it includes manipulation "I'm going shopping be back in five hours".. it includes withholding sex, from the one you are married to, to give it to someone that doesn't deserve it since they've given you nothing real.
> 
> So yea, if she was really abusive to him.. sounds like he was pretty abusive to her too, with help from you. Injecting yourself into an abusive relationship isn't the way to help it. If a man tells you his wife is abusive, get him help.. don't help him abuse his wife to fix things. Two wrongs.. still not making a right.
> 
> ...


let's call it.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> What made you end the affair ? How did you meet your OM ?(Professor ? Boss ?)


He was the CEO of a coorporation I worked as a policy analyst. It's not important. I'd rather not discuss a R that happened 15 years ago, as this is not the central issues I deal with today.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> Regarding Genetics:
> 
> My husband, his brother, his father and his grandfather all had affairs.
> 
> Nothing else needs to be said.


um... actually I only agreed with "bell curve" portion of the post. I just did not cut that out.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> He was the CEO of a coorporation I worked as a policy analyst. It's not important. I'd rather not discuss a R that happened 15 years ago, as this is not the central issues I deal with today.


I think what the OM and OW are is pretty important part of an affair. You just don't see it. That he is the CEO only makes it more obvious. A rich older man having an affair with a younger employee. Now, that kind of affairs are a cliche for a reason.

Were you in a relationship when the affair started ? Can you honestly say who solicited who ? (Again, not looking to bash here)


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> He was the CEO of a coorporation I worked as a policy analyst. It's not important. I'd rather not discuss a R that happened 15 years ago, as this is not the central issues I deal with today.


Perhaps the issues you deal with today can be linked to the fact that you've never addressed the importance of an A that happened 15 years ago.

CEO of a corporation.. so he was taking advantage of his power, and abusing it for his own self gain. Sounds like a great guy. Does his new wife know he's still in contact with a mistress from 15 years ago? How does she feel about that?


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> To many, sexual infidelity from their partner is one of the most traumatic events that could happen to them. Go read some of the threads here. You place infidelity 5th on the list. To many BS, it would take the first 10 places and some more. You are doing the same mistake that you are calling out people on.


Agreed.

And I will never say that this is not the case. Yet, I find it interesting that other behaviors that are equally traumatic get a pass, are ignored, brushed over (well, just go to a domestic violence shelter *shrugs*).

I would NEVER say it's not traumatic. I have comforted many friends and loved ones who've been there. I recognize that pain. I just find it interesting that others seem to NOT recognize the pain of others who deal with something else besides an affair.

If I offended you or anyone my apologies.

I really need to leave this thread and seek support for my CURRENT relationship.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

CEO of a corporation.. so he was taking advantage of his power, and abusing it for his own self gain. Sounds like a great guy. Does his new wife know he's still in contact with a mistress from 15 years ago? How does she feel about that?

Honestly, many young women have affairs on their own will because of many factors. Father issues, feeling of control over a grown old man(who represents authority), benefit to her career, monetary benefits etc


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## Legend (Jun 25, 2013)

You're right. You don't deserve advice. Like you'd take action.

You do deserve the man you have. An adulterer.

You seem good for each other. I'm sure if you hang on long enough, everything will work out well for you.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Perhaps the issues you deal with today can be linked to the fact that you've never addressed the importance of an A that happened 15 years ago.
> 
> CEO of a corporation.. so he was taking advantage of his power, and abusing it for his own self gain. Sounds like a great guy. Does his new wife know he's still in contact with a mistress from 15 years ago? How does she feel about that?


NO.

You are incorrect. I'm sorry, my friend...but do you realize that you are blaming me for the state of my current R based on something that happened YEARS AGO, and has no relevance to my life? It is possible that somethings are not related to an affair that happened 15 years ago.

He's not in contact with me. Where did you read this? By "from time to time" I met after we'd ended our relationship. Perhaps that's not clear.

He asked me to marry him over 10 years ago. I have no idea where this man is right now. All I know is that he eventually remarried. He's 61 and probably on a golf course somewhere.

Seriously, let's call it.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> CEO of a corporation.. so he was taking advantage of his power, and abusing it for his own self gain. Sounds like a great guy. Does his new wife know he's still in contact with a mistress from 15 years ago? How does she feel about that?
> 
> Honestly, many young women have affairs on their own will because of many factors. Father issues, feeling of control over a grown old man(who represents authority), benefit to her career, monetary benefits etc


I'm not saying he forced her, just that he should have known better than to mess with an employee as a CEO... he has no concept of boundaries obviously, and neither does she. I'm more curious now about them still being in touch after all these years.. and what his wife thinks about this contact. I'm sure she was impressed with his power and how important he was.. that must've been sexy to her. Too bad she didn't see what a creep he is for pursuing a coworker behind his wife's back. Now she's still talking to him, ready to wreck his new home. Hopefully he won't have any children with this latest wife.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> um... actually I only agreed with "bell curve" portion of the post. I just did not cut that out.


Sorry 'bout that! VH


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

Legend said:


> You're right. You don't deserve advice. Like you'd take action.
> 
> You do deserve the man you have. An adulterer.
> 
> You seem good for each other. I'm sure if you hang on long enough, everything will work out well for you.


What????

So, because I had (and ended a R with a MM 15 years ago), the current abuse in my R is MY FAULT and I deserve no advice?

My H had an A almost 10 years ago. It wasn't a big deal. That's not my issue with him... 

Thanks..


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And I will never say that this is not the case. Yet, I find it interesting that other behaviors that are equally traumatic get a pass, are ignored, brushed over (well, just go to a domestic violence shelter *shrugs*).
> 
> ...


I think that is because of few factors.

DV is not something most BS here indulge in real life or regularly. That is like going to a rape survivors forum and arguing that a water boarding experience is much worse than getting raped. That would be a pointless comparison. Only when people have similar issues in their own marriage, could they compare with it. 

And unlike physical and emotional abuse, infidelity happens behind the scenes. Unlike in abuse scenarios, the pain due to infidelity will happen after the event. You cannot escape it. You cannot leave the situation, because it already happened. The BS will have no other choice but take the pain of the event. So the comparison is also not accurate or proper when you compare a DV with infidelity.

There was even a BS out here that was called out on foe being physical with his WS on the D-day.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> NO.
> 
> You are incorrect. I'm sorry, my friend...but do you realize that you are blaming me for the state of my current R based on something that happened YEARS AGO, and has no relevance to my life? It is possible that somethings are not related to an affair that happened 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


Actually, he is not blaming you. 

You mentioned that you keep in contact with him in your older post.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> What????
> 
> So, because I had (and ended a R with a MM 15 years ago), the current abuse in my R is MY FAULT and I deserve no advice?
> 
> ...



I think he is answering the OP


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> *He's not in contact with me. Where did you read this?*
> 
> He asked me to marry him over 10 years ago. I have no idea where this man is right now. All I know is that he eventually remarried. He's 61 and probably on a golf course somewhere.
> 
> Seriously, let's call it.





persephone71 said:


> Thanks
> 
> Yeah, I've been bashed here before. I guess I'm either a mascochist or not overly concerned. (see above)
> 
> I did not M him for many reasons. The primary, I'd moved to another city and moved on. *I do still speak with him from time to time*. He's remarried.


Get your stories straight please.. I know it's hard to keep track.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> He was the CEO of a coorporation I worked as a policy analyst. It's not important. I'd rather not discuss a R that happened 15 years ago, as this is not the central issues I deal with today.


how likely it is that you would have an affair with the janitor of the same building ?


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I'm sure she was impressed with his power and how important he was.. that must've been sexy to her.


Wrong. I wasn't impressed with power. I was attracted to him. And my father and I have a GREAT RELATIONSHIP.


I actually DID NOT KNOW for months that he was M. When I found out, I ended it. He did not want to. 

So you see, why not ask me what happened, instead of assuming that my life followed some script.

It's insulting.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Get your stories straight please.. I know it's hard to keep track.


Sigh

I edited that...By "time to time" I referred to the time IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE relationship. No need to get my story straight. It's a non-issue for me.

Seriously, why are you so overly concerned about this???

This is NOT an issue, was only disclosed to let the OP know that she is not alone, and doesn't help my current situation.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> I think he is answering the OP


Ok...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> Wrong. I wasn't impressed with power. I was attracted to him. And my father and I have a GREAT RELATIONSHIP.
> 
> 
> I actually DID NOT KNOW for months that he was M. When I found out, I ended it. He did not want to.
> ...


Because I don't believe you.. from what I read, I feel you are still delusional, and I have a problem believing what I read from people who are delusional. I find it insulting when people lie to me. 

I'll take your 'call it' suggestion and stop now.. I hope some day you realize that the past can have an impact on the present and future. That you can use the past to learn things and become a better person.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> how likely it is that you would have an affair with the janitor of the same building ?


I would have not knowingly had an A. Just as I didn't knowingly have an A with the guy I was with. But, If I found him attractive, why not?


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Because I don't believe you.. from what I read, I feel you are still delusional, and I have a problem believing what I read from people who are delusional. I find it insulting when people lie to me.
> 
> I'll take your 'call it' suggestion and stop now.. I hope some day you realize that the past can have an impact on the present and future. That you can use the past to learn things and become a better person.


It's clear you don't believe me. Because you've taken one event in my life, and cast me into a category of someone you don't like, based on YOUR OWN LIFE experiences.

My past relationship, has NO BEARING on my current R. What I've written is MY REALITY. Grant it, there might have been holes, simply because this was something of no relevance to my current life and I wasn't trying to chronicle something irrelevant to me. Just like I have no interest in giving a "blow, by blow" of the first time I visited Europe... There'd be omissions and haphazardly written statements. 

As would be with most of us, if we needed to give details of an event of little relevance.

But you don't believe me, and find me delusional.

And I'm ok with that.

What I would suggest is that YOU lay yourself bare. Expose something in your past that others will find questionable...be judged by it. Be made to feel that the current state of your life is dictated by it. Have your current life events dismissed.

But you won't. 

BTW--

Suggesting rather dismissively that a victim of DV can just "go to a shelter" or get some help, is insulting. And devoid of any real insight into the horror of abuse.

I'm out.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> I think that is because of few factors.
> 
> 
> And unlike physical and emotional abuse, infidelity happens behind the scenes. Unlike in abuse scenarios, the pain due to infidelity will happen after the event. You cannot escape it. You cannot leave the situation, because it already happened. The BS will have no other choice but take the pain of the event. So the comparison is also not accurate or proper when you compare a DV with infidelity.
> ...


This is simply not true.

MOST DV happens behind the scenes. Why, because it's criminal. It's socially abborhent. It happens behinds closed doors. The pain is pervasive; it occurs LONG AFTER the abuse ended. In most cases, victims CAN NOT escape. They are financially dependant on their abusers. They are isolated from their friends and family. In the case of emotional abuse, the damage is to the victim's self-esteem, perceptions, ability to make rational decisions, set healthy boundaries, et al.

It's also inter-generational.

If you were to visit a board of surviors of abuse, they'd tell you that the infidelity that they might have experienced was bad...but the abuse was worse.

Not taking ANYTHING AWAY from your pain, and that of others who've been cheated on.

But, don't take anything away from those for whom infidelity is not the central pain, they've experiened.

Be well...


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> I actually *DID NOT KNOW for months that he was M. When I found out, I ended it.* He did not want to.





persephone71 said:


> I was an OW to a MM while in grad school. *He constantly told me how much he loved me, wanted me and was going to leave his W for me*. She found out about me (actually apologized to me for HIS inappropriate behavior...he was 25 years older than me--me 26/ he 51), but never kicked him out.
> 
> *Eventually, I needed to end the R.*


Which one is it?


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> Which one is it?


Ok, this is the LAST I speak of this:

Door #2.

When I found out he was M'd I ended it. He wanted me back. I didn't go. She found out and apologized to me for him. He kept contact with me (non-sexual) for several years after that. During that time, he D'd his wife (not because of me) and asked me to M him. I declined. He later remarried. I moved to another state for work, met my H. 

End of story.

Seriously, this was 15 years ago, and not relevant to my current R.

Let's talk about something YOU DID 15 years ago...

Please, give it a rest.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

persephone71 said:


> Ok, this is the LAST I speak of this:
> 
> Door #2.
> 
> ...


Before you edited your post, I thought you were trying to gaslight us haha.

So, I looked up threads you started. I don't want to hijack this thread (and plus I fully intended to bow out). So quick comment: You said your husband is emotionally abusive, and he cheated too. Although his affair does not hurt you, he is twice proven to be an abusive person. Divorce him or not is your choice. But clear boundary is in order. The problem is you have been gone and forth several times. It's hard to be taken seriously if you keep changing your mind.


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## persephone71 (May 21, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> But clear boundary is in order. The problem is you have been gone and forth several times. It's hard to be taken seriously if you keep changing your mind.


The two are mutually exclusive, my friend. 

Changing my mind about staying my my CURRENT marriage is the balancing act I current walk. It's difficult. And if not taken seriously, that's fine.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

He lied to you about being married ?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I guess I have finally seen this sort of thing with my own eyes here on TAM.

Someone has expressed a desire to drop discussion of her own life, and others keep trying to tear them down, continuing to make assertions she understandably feels tempted to address, and has further questions and barbs are thrown at her.

Have some respect. The lady said she doesn't want to talk about it. Start your own thread, if you want to talk about her life, as you imagine it from the few things she said. Or quote her posts there and analyze them for contradictions amongst those who find that pleasurable. 

But, please quit trying to suck her back into defend herself here, when she has repeatedly asked to be left alone.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> How old are all the parties involved and how did you meet the OM ?


We met at a club they owned together. We are all over 40.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

Brokenshadow said:


> Just curious, as someone invading a marriage, what do you think of his spouse? Do you ever feel fear? Not of exposure, or your relationship ending, but of his wife? Do you see yourself as a predator? Don't you ever, in a quiet moment of your day, consider that as secure as you feel, as much swagger as you may have, that there are people in this world who's darkness is held back by done frayed scrap of humanity?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was good friends with his wife at one time. She has (obviously) ended our friendship, as is her right of course. I hold her no ill will, nor am I proud of the fact that I have caused her pain. I am not. I am trying to understand her mindset for allowing him back. I don't know why I posted, I guess I just wanted someone to know what was going on.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Perfection,
> 
> 
> Take control of your life. Stop being an accessory to use when it's convenient.


Thank you for your non-judgemental honesty. I appreciate it.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Perfection, people like you make me laugh. You come to a place like TAM... A pro marriage forum... An anonymous forum with your story and don't want to be judged.

Did you truly think that would happen? I know doctor cool is closed for your support, but don't expect a warm welcome here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

When did this post get hi-jacked? I am sorry for what I brought up. I am sorry for being the horrible person I am for falling for a MM, I am sorry for his W and the damage I have caused. I am sorry. I have tried to walk away several times. I have told him it is over, I have left. I am weak, and I go back. I know I have no self-worth, this thread has only proven it to me in spades. I don't deserve advice, as I said originally. I can see now, I was right.

Thank you very much to the honest, non-judgmental posts I have read. Perspective is everything, and my perspective has changed because of what I have read. 

As far as my username choice, it is supposed to be ironic. Clearly people did not see that. I am FAR from perfect, but extremely imperfect. Thank you to those who got it.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread .


You already did..... This is not persephone's post, but apparently it has become that.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

perfection said:


> I was good friends with his wife at one time. She has (obviously) ended our friendship, as is her right of course. I hold her no ill will, nor am I proud of the fact that I have caused her pain. I am not. I am trying to understand her mindset for allowing him back. I don't know why I posted, I guess I just wanted someone to know what was going on.


Why did you think cheating with your friend's husband is ok ?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

perfection said:


> When did this post get hi-jacked? I am sorry for what I brought up. I am sorry for being the horrible person I am for falling for a MM, I am sorry for his W and the damage I have caused. I am sorry. I have tried to walk away several times. I have told him it is over, I have left. I am weak, and I go back. I know I have no self-worth, this thread has only proven it to me in spades. I don't deserve advice, as I said originally. I can see now, I was right.
> 
> Thank you very much to the honest, non-judgmental posts I have read. Perspective is everything, and my perspective has changed because of what I have read.
> 
> As far as my username choice, it is supposed to be ironic. Clearly people did not see that. I am FAR from perfect, but extremely imperfect. Thank you to those who got it.


Tomorrow is a new day perfection. Be a person you admire and respect. If you fail tomorrow then try it again the next day. Self worth is your friend, empathy for others is your friend. If things you do tear that down then they aren't worth it.


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## perfection (Jun 25, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Why did you think cheating with your friend's husband is ok ?


I don't. I didn't want to start in with him to begin with, but I fell victim to his charms and his lies. I KNOW he's lying to her still, and I know he's lying to me, but most of all, he's lying to himself.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Most of all, you are lying to yourself, perfection. You are lying that he is worth any bit of your life. You sell your entire life short with this. You will never get past it or over it. When it is done, he will be a shrunken memory of a man who has no honor or substance and you won't ever forget. 

Why not stop it now before it defines your life even more? You really can do it. You're not in prison. You really do have free will.


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## canuckprincess (Mar 22, 2012)

perfection said:


> I don't. I didn't want to start in with him to begin with, but I fell victim to his charms and his lies. I KNOW he's lying to her still, and I know he's lying to me, but most of all, he's lying to himself.


Perfection, I feel your pain, please don't allow bitter people bring you down. Some may be taking their failed relationships out on you instead of where their anger should be focused. 
I have found far too many people on these forums believe the ow or om are completely at fault. I'm sure you didn't hold a gun to your mm's head and make him cheat, it was and is his choice. 
Do what's best for you, take care of yourself and if that means leaving mm then do it, if it means fighting to be his ow ( only woman) then do it! I know I will get bashed for this message and that's fine, I have a right to my own opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

perfection,

You have things in common with many of us here - you seem stuck in a situation you know is not good for anyone, yet haven't found a way to get yourself unstuck and move to the better days ahead.

You have things going for you that some do not. You seem to be motivated to find answers, even taking some risk to seek help here where sometimes, well, it can be a rough crowd. You also seem willing to admit faults, and see truths of the sort that some would have a hard time seeing in themselves.

To answer your original question, I'd say: Who knows? It seems to me humans are often motivated by fear, lack awareness of better ways of being, feel undeserving of the good life, and lack the energy and skills to make bold changes.

Yet they can. The can learn to be honest with themselves, learn to face their fears, learn to see other paths are possible, and take step by little step in the right direction.

Don't let shame from anyone here distract you. You know you need to figure some things out, and make some changes. You are where you are. It's what your doing to move forward to better yourself that matters most. 

What are you doing to move forward from here? What should you do? 
What can you do?
Please answer only if you care to.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Actually, this is the same kind of mindset that allowed you cheat with a older man.(an observation rather than attack) You mentioned that yourself in your post.
> 
> 
> 
> To many, sexual infidelity from their partner is one of the most traumatic events that could happen to them. Go read some of the threads here. *You place infidelity 5th on the list. To many BS, it would take the first 10 places and some more. You are doing the same mistake that you are calling out people on.*



But this difference in order of important things in marriage, could just explain why there is a setup for problems in so many relations

Many husbands have this view of everything goes because I don't physically cheat and so my wife should not complain.

Ignoring her top priorities I see this happen also in real life all the time. This does not alway's end in divorce and even less times in cheating. But it's a sad sad relation where people find themselves trapped in.

Both have a responsibility to find out for themselves how they experience their relation, feel about it, analyse, and communicate about this.

Then work on the issues, create their own happiness.

Only few people do this. 

Most rather be a victim than be an actor, an agent of change


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

perfection said:


> I don't. I didn't want to start in with him to begin with, but I fell victim to his charms and his lies. I KNOW he's lying to her still, and I know he's lying to me, but most of all, he's lying to himself.


*Thanks for coming back to the thread. It was bound to get messy at some stage and, anonymous forum or no, it takes courage to put yourself up for others to shine their light into your situation.*

The only lie that should have made a difference to the outcome here is if this man told you he was not married.

This was clearly not the case as you knew/know his wife.

That doesn't mean you are a "Bad Person"; it does mean you made a Bad Choice and continue to do so. You clearly know that as you asked a question in the first place. 

My advice earlier was to talk to his wife about what is happening. This would be very difficult to do, but I believe the only way you both might get out of this mess. I can see you are stuck. You are trapped by fear, uncertainty, doubt and love.

I get the sense that there is an element of "winning" and "losing" in this situation. You believe his wife is "winning" him and that you are on the "losing" end of the deal.

Of course, all 3 of you are losing as your lives cannot move on in any meaningful way whilst this is all going on. 

It's so difficult to give meaningful and helpful advice in such a complicated and nuanced situation. I do admire your choice to come here. There must be hundreds of others for every one of you that don't bother trying to fix anything.

I really hope you can work this out.


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## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

asia said:


> So who gets to determine whether someone is sincere or not? We have a person here to almost brags about being a former woman beater and he gets carted around on shoulders and celebrated. She knows her life and has every right to speak it and NOT be attacked. It all sounds so bitter toward strangers. If you are bitter, be bitter in your own life. Don't come here where there are those of us who need encouragement and help (be it BS, WS or former AP). *Her MM wanted to marry her, that flys in the face of just being a piece of tail I think. * So in my opinion, she has a lot of value to posters like me whose husbands fell in love with their AP. And honestly, these comments to her are just plain rude.


In regards to the bolded... No, it really doesn't. The fact that the BS actually APOLOGIZED to the OW for her husbands behaviour (assumedly because of the age difference and the fact that she was well aware he was the predatory sort), tells me the MM wasn't Divorced by his own choice. You think that the MM wanting to marry OW after BS divorced him proves he cared? No, he wanted to marry her because he needs someone (multiple people) and she has already proven herself to be accepting of an open relationship.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Perfection,

I don't want to read this whole thread but i did read some.

I married a cheating sh*tbag. My stbxh is weak in many ways. When we met 25 years ago, I thought he was perfect for me.

I think back now of all the poor choices I made and why, at the time, I thought they were good choices. I still don't know the answer.

There was a man I had a relationship with years ago that was a bit older than me. I didn't have enough self esteem so I let the relationship go. I was just too immature at the time.

I look back on my marriage and think how badly I would have loved to have chosen the other guy. He turned out to be a great husband to another woman and a great father too. Too bad for me.

Let's say, in fantasy land, this old boyfriend wanted to have an affair with me. I would first, be turned off because he would be a cheater and equal to my stbxh, and second, because I love him still in many ways, I would respect his family.

I don't understand how if people really love someone, they can't leave them alone. Why put someone you love in a terrible situation. 

Let this man go. If he really wants to be with you, he will divorce his wife and marry you. If he does divorce his wife and marry you, would you trust him?

See, it's a lose-lose situation. If we want something in this life, we must be strong and walk away from "bad things" in order to make room and time for good things.

Just think of all the great guys you missed having the chance with because you were in this unhealthy relationship.

I quit smoking 13 years ago and I still miss it every once in a while. It was really, really, really hard to quit, but I did. I can breath, watch my kids grow up, lengthen my life. It was hard but I am so much better off so it was worth it.

Get tough, apologize to his wife and family and move on.

Come back and post about your happy new relationship when it arrives!!

Best wishes.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Why did you think cheating with your friend's husband is ok ?


I don't think she did. Sadly that didn't stop her from doing it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

persephone71 said:


> Um...you assume I haven't been...
> 
> My H also had an affair. Yet, I didn't go on a rampage blaming the young hottie who fell from the heavens and landed on his d* ck!
> 
> ...


If you didn't blame him why are you using him now to qualify yourself? 

When it comes to the internet all we really can do is assume. But I would say my hypothesis is extremely sound based on your activity here, which is all anyone really has to go on. I would not make any excuses for your husband's behavior; we are all responsible for our own actions. But you are responsible for yours. If you don't like the natural consequences and stigma that come from infidelity mixed with pride, I would recommend not posting here. It's an extremely volatile mix, and if you can endure it, fine. But if not, don't stick around _and_ complain about the reaction.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Perf,

He has had three open doors to leave her, the three times he got caught.

Those three times he chose her over you.

Why are you still letting him use you for sex?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

The only thing I would like to know is what is your current plan on ending this A? I mean the BS would probably like to know how bad it really is. It sounds like the BS is definitely rug sweeping and is taking him back out of fear or some mistaken belief that he really does love her. 

While I am not a fan of any OW the simple fact is that you are not the one responsible for staying within the bounds of a relationship. I feel sad for most OW or OM because you are in a faux relationship. One that was dead from the get go. You are so wrapped up in this A that you have stopped looking for a real relationship with someone who loves you. You are holding a candle for someone who is not going to come home. 

Regardless of his charms and promises you are living in a limbo state. You need to end this and it will only end when someone tells the BS the whole truth. You need to stop wasting time here. You have been wrapped around and unavailable guys finger for 5 years. How many good men could you have met? How many men could you have ended up being happy with? You are wasting time and if there is one thing that we don't have enough of in this life is TIME it is precious, you can't get more time, and you don't ever know how much time you have left. You have wasted 1,825 days on a lying sack of garbage that can't even manage to stay faithful in his own marriage. I would also hazard to guess that you are probably not his only OW. So end it tell the BS the whole truth. let her know how crappy her H really is because I bet his wife thinks that this is all you and that if you were just gone the marriage would workout.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

canuckprincess said:


> Do what's best for you, take care of yourself and if that means leaving mm then do it, if it means fighting to be his ow ( only woman) then do it! I know I will get bashed for this message and that's fine, I have a right to my own opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


canuckprincess, what's your oppinion? Do you think fighting to be his only woman is a good thing for OW to do in general? Do you think it has a good chance of working out for her? It seems like dangerous advice to tell someone it's okay to do something that statistically almost never works even though people in the middle of it statistically think their situation is different from everyone elses.

Interesting thing about consequences is they happen based on actions and not how someone justifies their actions.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

canuckprincess said:


> Perfection, I feel your pain, please don't allow bitter people bring you down. Some may be taking their failed relationships out on you instead of where their anger should be focused.
> I have found far too many people on these forums believe the ow or om are completely at fault. I'm sure you didn't hold a gun to your mm's head and make him cheat, it was and is his choice.
> Do what's best for you, take care of yourself and if that means leaving mm then do it, if it means fighting to be his ow ( only woman) then do it! I know I will get bashed for this message and that's fine, I have a right to my own opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This post is horrible, horrible advice.
Fight for your MOM. Go girl!
Disgusting.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Everyone here does deserve advice. Even the OW. Thing is, Perfection, the advice you'll get here won't be geared toward how to "win" this guy and destroy his marriage. You can get advice on how to detach yourself from this toxic situation, if you want. But I doubt that is such advice that you're seeking.

Why does his wife stay? Why would she hand you her husband on a golden trey? Did it occur to you that she, just like you, may love him?
I agree with all the other posters who say this guy is not worth the fight. He's an ultimate deceiver and both of you are enablers. He won't stop because he doesn't have to. He knows both of you are gonna be upset, complain a little, then what you're gonna do? Nothing. Take him back.


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