# The Making of a Nice Guy



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You younger gentlemen (and you too Arbitrator) are beacons of light in a troubled sea.

Yet, a bit of reflection on this May 21st. As far as I can tell, 32 years ago was the day I started down the path of niceguy. I lost my mom to leukemia.

I don't think I ever fully realized (until recently) how much this loss creamed my emotional/relationship life.

I've always been someone who felt things intensely, so I suppose I needed my mom more than others. I actually became a pharmacist because I wanted to be there so badly when they invented a cure for her disease. About 10 years ago, they did. One shot - and "poof" her type of leukemia disappears.

Progress is measured in different ways. Even as recently as 3 years ago, I'd have wrenching emotional moments on this day - and other days.

Now, I think of her and smile.

Perhaps we niceguys are looking for "mommy love" from these partners of ours. Something worth considering. They likely seem like such easy targets since we can "help them" so much.

We would certainly love anyone who wanted to help us.

I'm certain of that.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Makes sense to me. My mom was/is emotionally unavailable. My dad set a perfect example of the type of man I DIDN'T want to be (opposites are too confusing as a child, so who knows what I decided I SHOULD be).


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I always wince when I read threads like this, because I love my Niceguy husband, and I appreciate everything that he does for me.

When I was dating, I looked for a Niceguy because I did not want to have a replica of my alpha father, who ran our household with an iron fist. It was his way or the highway when I was growing up. He even told my mother which candidate to vote for on election day.

However, we do teach people how to treat us, and we all need to express our boundaries to our spouses. No one should accept emotional abuse, and Niceguys who want to help their spouses are vulnerable to being used if they choose selfish women.

My FIL was also a Niceguy who choose a selfish, immature woman who tried to push him around. He loved being needed by her. He dealt with her by using gentle humor, and by ignoring her tirades. However, he never learned to deal with her alcoholism, and he did make some foolish financial decisions while trying to please her.

Bottom line, if you are a Niceguy who loves to be needed, choose your partner wisely. Make sure that she appreciates and respects you, and establish your boundaries early in the relationship.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Too late.

Never again.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Too late.
> 
> Never again.


Right on my man. Never again will a lady get to have me replenish their ego at the expense of my dignity. NEVER. 

As for your original post, here's my situation:

Dad was/is an abusive narcissist. Mom was completely submissive with absolutely no self-respect. We're from a male-dominated culture, though my parents did not submit to any of the bull**** traditions/religious beliefs, the social pressure on my mother was clearly very effective.


The marriage was shaky and full of nasty fights ever since I remember. I witnessed my mom take some horrific verbal and physical abuse. I still clearly remember crying myself to sleep while shaking in fear and worrying about my mom. It was terrible,* but all along and even until a few years ago I considered all of it to be normal*.

My teenage years involved some extremely heart-crushing fights with my dad over very normal/trivial teenage-boy stuff. I absolutely hated being his son, yet always somehow ended up blaming myself and apologizing. My friends still consider my dad insane even years after.

My parents divorced when I was 23. I had moved out and my dad's abuse had become intolerable to my mom and my sister. Despite all this, I never wanted my parents to divorce. I hated them (mostly my dad) for the divorce, not necessarily for the abuse.

My parents never managed to move on. In fact they only lived a part for less than 2 years. For the past 8 years they've been on and off living together in different parts of the world (while divorced!). It's been nothing but torture for both me and my sister. Both mom and dad were/are codependent on each other.

I met my wife at the age of 19 while my rage against my dad was peaking. I used my wife (then girlfriend) as a "perfect romance" project to prove to myself that I was not anything like my dad and my relationship would never involve any form of abuse.

Not only did I *not* succeed, I actually ended up becoming a severely conflicted "nice guy" married to a BPDer. This automatically made me a doubly-motivated rescuer who put all his needs/concerns/boundaries aside to make the marriage last.

I'm now convinced that my wife will indeed never find as selfless/sick a partner as she did in me. I was a God sent to her and pretty much dissolved myself in giving rise to her BPD heaven.

Yup... That's how I became a nice guy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic,

I also think she was sent to you.

Follow me here.

Like my wife has, she will teach you if you let her.

Get yourself to 50,000 feet.

Set boundaries and observe.

If you must, bracket your emotions and think of it as a project.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> synthetic,
> 
> I also think she was sent to you.
> 
> ...


Conrad,

I'm experiencing a moment of clarity these minutes, so don't count on me being this "sane" later on, but based on what I'm reading on bpdfamily.com and based on past experience, despite my wife's very determined attitude in wanting a divorce and possibly already seeking other men, she may still want to maintain a certain level of control/abuse on me.

Do you see her trying to resume romance with me just to satisfy her BP? I see so many people on that site whose wayward BPD spouse left them only to come back and inflict more pain.

Is a part of me hoping for that to happen despite all the knowledge I'm taking comfort in?

I wish I could maintain this clarity longer than an hour so. It never stays


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> Conrad,
> 
> I'm experiencing a moment of clarity these minutes, so don't count on me being this "sane" later on, but based on what I'm reading on bpdfamily.com and based on past experience, despite my wife's very determined attitude in wanting a divorce and possibly already seeking other men, she may still want to maintain a certain level of control/abuse on me.
> 
> ...


As soon as she senses she's about to lose something, you can expect a resumption of her attention.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Or when she finds someone else who dumps her, guess who she will turn to ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Conrad: Thanks for your kind remarks! Being a nice guy has always been my nature. I was the sixth in my family(all boys) and there were 12 years difference between me and No. 5. Literally, I was the surprise baby. My folks intoned that it was like raising two separate families~one with 5 boys, then with me as a solo. The other 5 saw me as spoiled and not having to fight for as much as they did, and also came along at a time when my parents reached a more affluent phase of their life.

I don't know if being nice is a psychological, a physiological, or other type of characteristic, but it's always been in my nature, and for the most part, I have always been applauded for it. In my life, I have had my good nature taken advantage of, both knowingly and unknowingly. If my good nature has ever been violated for any reason, I've always had the capacity to offer up foregiveness, but I seem to never quite forget about it. 

But I've always fastly adhered to the mantra of "treating other people, much the same way that I would like to be treated." And for the most part, it has served me rather well!


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

So how did I become a nice guy? 

It started in my childhood. My mother separated from my father and moved far to work and have money to raise us. This later impacted my view of what a family is supposed to be like. I adapted the role of protector of my brother and it carried on through adolescence and adulthood. Always thought of myself as a savior, someone who needed to give his all to make others happy (used to do things seeking approval, subsconciously). 

Later on it was explained to me that my parents divorced because my father was not providing for the family, financialy irresponsible, had other women, had too much of a social life. So what did I do? 

I linked all those things with a marriage failing and provided for my wife taking on too much responsibility and making it way too easy for her, to not repeat the same mistake my father made (I thought) I would stop going out with friends and dedicate myself solely to STBXW. BIG MISTAKE.


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

I was just thinking about this.

I became a nice guy because my father was a screamer and abusive and I became extremely passive.To this day have never raised my voice at anyone and have a very hard time getting angry. When someone yells at me or around me it immediately puts me in a defensive state and the chills run up my back. I completely relate to my mother, she has dealt with him all of these years. 

I watched my mother calm the storm over and over again and I watched my father make waves and distress so I naturally associated the correct way of living to be my mother and to become an enabler. 

I have a very hard time understanding how people take advantage of my good nature attitude, but I generally seem to attract the BPD type's that give me that need to take care of someone. I always seem to be attracted to people who need help because I feel I can help them and "fix" them in the truest form.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Traggy: We're greatly alike in the respect that we both like to help people out by reaching out to them. I don't really know if that is just us indirectly seeking approval. What I do know is that I don't like to leave someone in trouble who's figuratively stranded on the side of the road. And I rarely ask few to no questions!

But God has richly blessed me in having the intuition of knowing whether I'm being used or not; more specifically, whether they just tell me that I'm in the midst of a thunderstorm, or they're quite busy pi**ing on my shoes!


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

I have always felt that making other people happy was easier than making myself happy. I find happiness, true happiness, when I am able to make people laugh, smile, or just have a generally better day directly because of me. 

I guess I seek out the validation of others approval more than I know. I just want others to know what I already know about myself. After years of enabling my daughters mother I have come to the point now of realizing what I may have done to cause the affair and that was allow her to push my boundaries over and over again because if I stood my ground I was always afraid of losing her. In the end, after sugar coating, rug sweeping, and general living solely for her, I lost her anyway. Probably because I didn't put a stop to her mind games early on. 

You learn a lot if you look around in the wreck of your life from time to time.

I am going to keep giving it to god and see where it takes me.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Traggy said:


> I have always felt that making other people happy was easier than making myself happy. I find happiness, true happiness, when I am able to make people laugh, smile, or just have a generally better day directly because of me.
> 
> I guess I seek out the validation of others approval more than I know. I just want others to know what I already know about myself. After years of enabling my daughters mother I have come to the point now of realizing what I may have done to cause the affair and that was allow her to push my boundaries over and over again because if I stood my ground I was always afraid of losing her. In the end, after sugar coating, rug sweeping, and general living solely for her, I lost her anyway. Probably because I didn't put a stop to her mind games early on.
> 
> ...


I like this post. I think I may have very well fallen into the same pattern, and it contributed to the loss of my marriage.

Regarding your last line, you would do well to remember the saying that God helps those who helps themselves.

And this, from an atheist.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Traggy, 

We are on the same boat. I've come to terms with my contributions to the failure of our marriage. In our cases, though, setting strong boundaries and not being afraid to lose them wouldn't have helped much since it's likely they are both BDPers. 

But it's definitely something good to know for future relationships (with a non-BDPer please).


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Hay Canguy,

Welcome to the club. We're all in the same boat. We're like clones of each other with very similar stories.


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Traggy,
> 
> We are on the same boat. I've come to terms with my contributions to the failure of our marriage. In our cases, though, setting strong boundaries and not being afraid to lose them wouldn't have helped much since it's likely they are both BDPers.
> 
> But it's definitely something good to know for future relationships (with a non-BDPer please).


Well, we would have not married them most likely if we didn't cut them the slack.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Matt1720 said:


> My dad set a perfect example of the type of man I DIDN'T want to be (opposites are too confusing as a child, so who knows what I decided I SHOULD be).


While I loved my Dad to no end, I too, did not want to use him as a role model. While the only attribute about him that I embraced was his heart and passion for civil rights, he got to be a firebrand in his corporation for being an advocate of it when doing so at that point in history was pretty much taboo. In fact, he used to be a Union man in the company and they had to promote him up into the corporate hierarchy for him to get out of that position, and in effect, start towing the company line. Once in company management, he became the most absolutely nicest guy you would have ever seen. But then again, he had been promoted, reigned in, and his responsibilities vastly diminished.

What I hated about him was his perpetual verbal abuse toward my Mom and me, always wanting to try to pick a fight. That and his constant after-work-hours drinking.

I greatly used my passive Mom as my role model because of her loving nature, even temperment, religiousity, and her can-do attitude about things.

Isn't it completely strange, however, that the two women that I ended up marrying greatly turned out to be like my Dad, in most respects! I sure would love to break that cycle before it becomes time to have to check out of this lifetime!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>Isn't it completely strange, however, that the two women that I ended up marrying greatly turned out to be like my Dad, in most respects!<<

Arb,

That's actually pretty "normal". Not strange at all.

What's strange is that you've gained the insight to see it.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Yeah, my dad was very intimidating growing up. He also drank too much at times and I did always treat my mother with respect. I love and respect my dad for many things, but not for being a great husband. My mom spent a lot of times making excuses and smoothing things over. 

Surprised?

I don't feel my ex was like my dad. She turned into an alpha female (she was not when we got married) and is now all ambition, all career. I am proud of her accomplishments, but I did not like the way she treated me and our marriage. I made that clear several times, calmly and assertively and got angry when standing my ground too.

The second-to-last time I saw her, which was in January, I stood up for myself and told her I would no longer allow her to project her insecurities on me, and blame me for the marriage not working while not owning up to her own issues. That night, for the first time in years, I felt like a man around my wife. And, I respected myself. I think she did as well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What about this "alpha female" was not intimidating?

I freely confess I've been intimidated by mine.

That is in the past, but it makes it no less true.


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## worrieddad (Nov 3, 2011)

I also have (had) some niceguy tendancies, at least within the context of marriage. Bit of a difference for me in upbringing though - I pretty much had the perfect small town family upbringing, with a hard working dad and stay at home mom. They had their differences here and there of course, as any couple does....but always loved each other. It was forged into me that marriage was forever, and nothing was more important than an intact family for the upbringing of children. Commitment and loyalty was what it was all about; through good times and bad, through thick and thin. So I don't think you particularly need some sort of traumatic upbringing to be a nice guy.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Conrad said:


> What about this "alpha female" was not intimidating?
> 
> I freely confess I've been intimidated by mine.
> 
> That is in the past, but it makes it no less true.


She was an alpha female at her work, but not so much at home. She took care of finances (what she was good at) and I took care of the yard, vehicles and tech (what I was good at). We made big decisions together, and got along well for the most part. I was always easy-going, but stood my ground when I felt it necessary and set boundaries too. When something was more important to her and not to me, I had no problem giving her my ok on stuff, and vice versa.

I would say I felt threatened by her leaving more than intimidated by her as a person. When I got the sense she was looking to leave the marriage, that's when I became a fixer/smoother trying to patch holes to keep the marriage afloat.

Back to the division of duties. She felt like she was taking care of me, and complaining I knew nothing about the bills. I left that to her since she is controlling and wanted to do the finance part, and reminded her we both did what we were good at. We shared the cooking and cleaning duties and I thought had a very fair and understanding approach to that stuff.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Canguy,

They sense our deep fear when they threaten to leave and our immediate response is not, "There's the door"


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Very true,

And its a fear they've felt all their life, so they understand it well.

Its like the movies when someone gets "the drop" on someone else. Lets just say the "bad guy". This is when the bad guy gloats in his victory.

Then suddenly the good guy's hidden partner points a gun at the bad guy. Now its an equal playing field again.

----------------
I don't mean to trivialize, I am a movie buff and in general a very visual/visual analogy type person.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Matt1720 said:


> Very true,
> 
> And its a fear they've felt all their life, so they understand it well.


We know our own kind.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Canguy,
> 
> They sense our deep fear when they threaten to leave and our immediate response is not, "There's the door"


No kidding, and it's power for them. I most definitely caved and panicked when she wanted to leave. 

I'm still struggling with sending the letter I have ready, probing about reconciliation. I'm asking myself, is my self-worth as a person not recovered enough to want/need to go back to the relationship? Just something I am mulling over. 

I do believe self-respect is something one can claim. Doing that. One reason why I have not sent the letter. After today, I feel empowered, actually. No over my ex, but from within. A zen kind of day, all things considered.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

canguy66 said:


> No kidding, and it's power for them. I most definitely caved and panicked when she wanted to leave.
> 
> I'm still struggling with sending the letter I have ready, probing about reconciliation. I'm asking myself, is my self-worth as a person not recovered enough to want/need to go back to the relationship? Just something I am mulling over.
> 
> I do believe self-respect is something one can claim. Doing that. One reason why I have not sent the letter. After today, I feel empowered, actually. No over my ex, but from within. A zen kind of day, all things considered.


Sounds like June will be better than May.

Cause for celebration.

Good job.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

canguy66 said:


> I'm asking myself, is my self-worth as a person not recovered enough to want/need to go back to the relationship? Just something I am mulling over.


I feel the same way lately. More centered, but still slipping into periods where I miss my stbxh and the relationship to the point that I want it all back. Is it really all just a self esteem issue?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

MyselfAgain said:


> I feel the same way lately. More centered, but still slipping into periods where I miss my stbxh and the relationship to the point that I want it all back. Is it really all just a self esteem issue?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could be, that and wanting familiarity back at the expense of a healthy relationship. I also think it's wanting back the better times. But... a highlight reel does not make a good movie.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MyselfAgain said:


> I feel the same way lately. More centered, but still slipping into periods where I miss my stbxh and the relationship to the point that I want it all back. Is it really all just a self esteem issue?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Questions like this are why a good counselor is worth his/her weight in gold.

Only YOU can answer. And, it's likely you'll need help to do so.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Working on it, just struck a nerve. The thing is, I think I have high self esteem in every area but relationship...this is exactly what I'm trying to figure out right now...why I feel like I'm too fat or too serious or too whatever for someone I want to fall in love back. I think I have had this belief since I was 4 years old. I know its crap intellectually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

Well, your first problem is you are a Boston fan. We can let that one slide. 

I really think you are dealing with some good old fashioned insecurity. Like we all have in some shape or form.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I feel the same way lately. More centered, but still slipping into periods where I miss my stbxh and the relationship to the point that I want it all back. Is it really all just a self esteem issue?


Okay I can't resist this one.

I've been married almost 21 years and I still feel this way sometimes. And my marriage is happy. So even being in a relationship won't magically make this feeling go away. Even I struggle to get back centered and stop focusing on things I'm missing.

My conclusion is when I get this way I'm simply looking for something outside myself to complete me. And that never works. We all do it to some extent. Money, relationships, careers, stuff, promotions, etc. Its a trap. Happiness comes from within. Master that and you will see love everywhere and you will never feel alone again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MyselfAgain said:


> Working on it, just struck a nerve. The thing is, I think I have high self esteem in every area but relationship...this is exactly what I'm trying to figure out right now...why I feel like I'm too fat or too serious or too whatever for someone I want to fall in love back. I think I have had this belief since I was 4 years old. I know its crap intellectually.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Left brain intellectually reasons it out.

Right brain simply REFUSES to "get it"

Where do you think stress comes from?

INSIDE


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Okay I can't resist this one.
> 
> I've been married almost 21 years and I still feel this way sometimes. And my marriage is happy. So even being in a relationship won't magically make this feeling go away. Even I struggle to get back centered and stop focusing on things I'm missing.
> 
> My conclusion is when I get this way I'm simply looking for something outside myself to complete me. And that never works. We all do it to some extent. Money, relationships, careers, stuff, promotions, etc. Its a trap. Happiness comes from within. Master that and you will see love everywhere and you will never feel alone again.



Well stated, m'dear! And I couldn't agree with you more! And what you alluded to richly brings to mind the final stanza of the poem *Invictus* by William Ernest Henley(1849-1903):

*"It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."*


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