# If you were courting a woman you were keen on



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....

1. How would feel?
2. What would you do?

I'm asking because I am having this discussion elsewhere. Morality aside, I tried pointing out that most men would not accept this and most likely would drop the woman.

A couple of women are arguing that the above scenario is perfectly ok. The woman is "delaying sex" with the one she really cares about as a way to guard her heart.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Without knowing the details of the original conversation I'd have to say it doesn't sound like she's all that into the man. The fwb thing I can maybe understand but if she's perfectly ok with having a ONS then she should be open to having sex w/a man she's dating.Unless they aren't dating and he's just trying to get her to date him...that's a whole different story.

If this was being done to me by a man I'd drop him and move on to someone who wasn't so keen on game playing. someone who was actually into me.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

1) I would feel put off. I get the "guarding your heart" thing but TBH that sounds a bit contrived and like more of a blow-off than anything else.
2) I'd end it.

I don't find the woman's stance morally wrong by any means, but the whole thing smells a bit of someone that I wouldn't trust.

Also, it would really depend on the level of exclusivity that the relationship had reached once this knowledge became public, and at that point whether or not the FWB thing was still ongoing. If it was on, say, the second date, I'd be more "whatevs" about it, but if it's, say, 2-3 months in, sorry, buh-bye.

However, note that I'm not really into the whole "dating multiple people" thing, either, so that colors my response. Nothing wrong with it just not my bag.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

NextTime: I am a woman and would not be cool with this if I was super into a guy...and later found out, all while he's courting me, that he is in fact sleeping with other people. 

I would move on. 

It's one thing to let someone know in the beginning that you are dating/involved with others. But to find out later...not into that.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Without knowing the details of the original conversation I'd have to say it doesn't sound like she's all that into the man.


:iagree:


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

This is a no-brainer. A woman is under no obligation to have sex with a man and she can in turn have sex with whoever she wants. Thats her choice and she doesn't have to justify it.

Having said that, as a man, yes I would be out the door. "Guarding her heart" (in this context) is how dysfunctional people address this issue: if the hypothetical woman feels that sex can be given freely to someone she doesn't care about but not tothe man for whom she has a loving attraction, then she is not emotionally mature enough for me. It's been rare enough in my life that I really like a woman enough to committ to her but when I do, I want all of her. If she chooses to withhold part of herself and give that part to someone else, that is indeed her choice. But nothing says I have to stick around and watch it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

the guy is plan B

and she is hoping her FWB is the true guy for her.

or shes just a $lut.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She's either not into him of she uses sex for manipulation. Either way I'd be out.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)




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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

Another case of wanting to play both sides.

Drop her like a hot potato.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

We run into this dynamic all of the time, and the outcomes as a result, such as in this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/151474-you-did-other-men-but-not-me.html

I have seen this again and again. And for all of the posturing that takes place between the sexes here, I have to say, this one makes no sense to me whatsoever.

So basically, what you are describing is there is the guy she wants to lay, and the guy she wants to stay.

She believes that one man has a higher value on the partner scale in terms of providing security and comfort over the long term, and in that case, she wants to also put a high value on the currency of intimacy ... for little other logical reason than to keep him enticed.

Then ... there is the guy that's pinning her knees behind her ears, grabbing handfuls of her hair, and jack-hammering her into tomorrow, who she has no intention of holding hands with, and growing old together.

I absolutely understand that women have this 'heart guarding' thing when it comes to sex with someone they love. They don't want to be seen as easy, loose, or dirty. It is a problem for them to reconcile as a result of sexual freedom, and a problem I want absolutely nothing to do with and would never, ever, accept.

To me, sex is expressive ... and if you love me, you'd damn well better be easy, loose, and dirty.

Just like with guys ... you don't get to paint holding off of sex with person A because you consider it sacred and special, gentle, and loving; while you are riding person B like a free rodeo.

if you are a sexual person, than embrace it and be sexual. But trying to paint a picture of yourself as prim and proper to one man who you want to stick around and you value, while you're balling another dude who you could care less about, is hilariously hyprocritical.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

This is a complex issue with many layers. A woman is not obligated to share her body with anybody, or participate in any sex act, especially under psychological duress. 
But, speaking hypothetically,

The only way I could see myself accepting that rationale from her ,was if she said that at the time she did those things he was in a bad place emotionally and either sought or is seeking counselling.

Other that that, then I would simple tell her let me be her next friends with benefits or ONS.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Except the scenario here is that she's withholding while at the same time effing her FB.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....
> 
> 1. How would feel?
> 2. What would you do?
> ...


This is how I would 'guard my heart' (and self-respect):-


I wouldn't have sex with someone if I wasn't in an exclusive relationship with them


I wouldn't date someone who I knew was having sex with someone else, let alone have sex with them.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Just like with guys ... you don't get to paint holding off of sex with person A because you consider it sacred and special, gentle, and loving; *while you are riding person B like a free rodeo.*


:rofl:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I have seen this again and again. And for all of the posturing that takes place between the sexes here, I have to say, this one makes no sense to me whatsoever.
> 
> So basically, what you are describing is there is the guy she wants to lay, and the guy she wants to stay.
> 
> ...


I'm utterly amazed, flabbergasted, that men would have difficulty understanding this.

Aren't men, after all, the masters of distinguishing between the girl that's "just for fun" and the one that's "worthy" of LTR? Don't they pretty much make a point of using the "just for fun" girls as much as possible, without nary a thought of love or commitment, but be sure to treat the "worthy" one with respect and consideration?

Why is it so difficult to understand that women may make the same sorts of distinctions?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Why is it so difficult to understand that women may make the same sorts of distinctions?


I don't think they have a difficulty understanding it all. Pretty much everyone on this thread has said that the courting guy is Plan B and/or she's not that into him.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Except the scenario here is that she's withholding while at the same time effing her FB.


Well then I want to be a FWB too.
Lets not overthink this!


But seriously, men need to respect themselves and start thinking for themselves. 
Too much obsequiousness , and acquiesce coming from some quarters in the male locker room. It is a sign of weakness in men who have lost self esteem ,self respect and lost their way.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....
> 
> 1. How would feel?
> 2. What would you do?
> ...


1. I'd feel used and manipulated.
2. I'd dump her.

First of all, while I may date someone truly exceptional who is delaying sex, that is not my preference, and _I'd require exclusivity early on_ to continue dating under these circumstances. If I later found out she lied, that would be the end of any potential relationship. And, if the delay goes much beyond two months, I would assume she's not into me and move on anyway. If she doesn't know me well enough by then to no longer need to "guard her heart" then she's certainly not smart enough to be a good match, or she has too many issues haunting her past.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah, I definitely don't care that the hypothetical woman has a FWB. Women like sex, too, and don't always want a relationship to go with it.

It's the duplicitous nature of being courted (which, for some, might imply exclusivity) while still maintaining the FWB (that was not initially disclosed, either) that I find off-putting.

The whole thing just kind of screams "game playing" to me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

always_alone said:


> I'm utterly amazed, flabbergasted, that men would have difficulty understanding this.
> 
> Aren't men, after all, the masters of distinguishing between the girl that's "just for fun" and the one that's "worthy" of LTR? Don't they pretty much make a point of using the "just for fun" girls as much as possible, without nary a thought of love or commitment, but be sure to treat the "worthy" one with respect and consideration?
> 
> Why is it so difficult to understand that women may make the same sorts of distinctions?


You're making my point for me, and no, that isn't meant to be trickery.

You and I can once again, hold hands and go down this path while gleefully blowing raspberries at each other (not saying I don't like that by the way) but ...

I'm saying we are in a sea-change of perceptions. If you want to explore your sexuality I have no problems with that, but if I make it clear that I did have a problem with it, and you choose to lie to me about it ... then you don't get a pass. Regardless of your gender.

In this particular case, to her credit, there is no deception. She is leaving it up to the guy. The woman in this scenario gets kudos from me. But ... were I the guy in this circumstance and she was telling me "No, I don't want sex with you now, because I want it to be special ... but I'll probably see Dino Bravo one last time just to get it out of my system ...."

I'd point, laugh, and leave.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Davelli0331 said:


> It's the duplicitous nature of being courted (which, for some, might imply exclusivity) while still maintaining the FWB (that was not initially disclosed, either) that I find off-putting.





Deejo said:


> If you want to explore your sexuality I have no problems with that, but if I make it clear that I did have a problem with it, and you choose to lie to me about it ... then you don't get a pass. Regardless of your gender.
> 
> In this particular case, to her credit, there is no deception. She is leaving it up to the guy. The woman in this scenario gets kudos from me. But ... were I the guy in this circumstance and she was telling me "No, I don't want sex with you now, because I want it to be special ... but I'll probably see Dino Bravo one last time just to get it out of my system ....


And this is the crux of it. 

Lol at the raspberries.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I don't think they have a difficulty understanding it all. Pretty much everyone on this thread has said that the courting guy is Plan B and/or she's not that into him.


I was actually thinking of it the other way around. Maybe she genuinely thinks of the FWB as just a good-time guy, and is seriously in love with the courting guy.

But she wants to take it slow, so he doesn't just become yet another good-time guy.

A lot of them fly off after they've made their conquest, after all, as many of them are just out for good-time girls.

Why do we have to assume she's just not that into him?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Why do we have to assume she's just not that into him?


I think it's a matter of personal opinion.If I was dating a man and wanted to have sex w/him and he refused me then later I find out he's having ONS...well...he'd be OUT. No amount of reasons in the world would make me think it was bc he was guarding his heart or whatever.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'd point, laugh, and leave.


I wasn't trying to blow raspberries; it was a serious question.

Of course, it's your prerogative to point and laugh and leave. But why assume she's not into you?

Many a guy has elected to "go slow" with someone he cares about so that (a) she won't get scared off and (b) to make sure she knows she's not just another good time girl. And has no problem getting with the good-time girls along the way. (After all, he can't be expected to remain celibate can he?)

So why is it so difficult to believe a woman might play a somewhat similar game?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I wasn't trying to blow raspberries; it was a serious question.
> 
> Of course, it's your prerogative to point and laugh and leave. But why assume she's not into you?
> 
> ...


I have to say that I've seen this with men, too. Some will go around having ONS's while they put the woman they want to "court" on a pedestal and will go slower with the sex part. 

Both sexes do it, for different reasons.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

norajane said:


> I have to say that I've seen this with men, too. Some will go around having ONS's while they put the woman they want to "court" on a pedestal and will go slower with the sex part.
> 
> Both sexes do it, for different reasons.


A guy was telling me that his gf in college was a virgin. He suggested that he have an FB while they were dating and she rejected that possibility. I can't remember how long they dated before they had sex together.

These days, I would not like the idea that guy was putting off sex with me for any reason. And because of all the discussion of OSFs and EAs on this board, I think a guy carrying on that kind of relationship alongside one with me would be way too dangerous. Suppose he fell in love with her; or at the very least, felt some sort of obligation to her. 

I would imagine a guy would have the same concern if the positions were reversed.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Other that that, then I would simple tell her let me be her next friends with benefits or ONS.


I had this same sentiment with my fiance but over the other type of resource..... that is how generous and protective he was with / for me.

I hit the roof when I learned that he was paying for taxi fare and bar tabs with his "just a friend" ex. He wouldn't even wait at the bus stop for me at the end of date. And embarassed me in front of my friends, having partaken in a round but then didn't offer to get one for the group....... and then I saw a 3 figure bar tab that he closed when he was out with his EA and her friends.

It felt like he was trying me like the friend and her like the No. 1 girlfriend.

A friend was trying to explain to me that a woman may choose to sleep with an FB while she chooses to delay sax with the one she really wants to protect her heart. I said, that's exactly what my fiance said to me to justify the obvious difference in treatment between the two of us.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Why do we have to assume she's just not that into him?


She's just not that into him enough to be only exclusive with him. Her sleeping with someone else while telling this guy she wants to go slow is indicative of that. Of course, some people can compartmentalize but this:



ScarletBegonias said:


> I think it's a matter of personal opinion.*If I was dating a man and wanted to have sex w/him and he refused me then later I find out he's having ONS...well...he'd be OUT. No amount of reasons in the world would make me think it was bc he was guarding his heart or whatever*.


kinda paints the picture of what I am saying.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Also, my feeling is that if I think a guy is really special and I am super into him, I really do not want to have sex with anyone else. By this token, she doesn't want to be only with the one guy. She wants them both.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> She's just not that into him enough to be only exclusive with him. Her sleeping with someone else while telling this guy she watns to go slow is indicative of that. Of course, some people can compartmentalize but this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the one person in this little threesome who's not getting laid to go along with it would indicate really low self respect and self esteem.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> For the one person in this little threesome who's not getting laid to go along with it would indicate really low self respect and self esteem.


Yeah, I'd have to agree. Or maybe someone who is into a more open kind of a relationship.

It would not work for me. Especially after finding out. Plus, I'd be really miffed that they wouldn't sleep with me, knowing full well I wanted to, yet are sleeping with someone else and spending romantic time with me. 

No, thanks.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

My first thought was to stop buying her gifts and taking her to nice dinners, etc and see what happens next... She's dating him because she's getting something out of it, and we know what it's not...

Like nearly everyone else has said, I would move on at this revelation for the reasons well stated.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I had this same sentiment with my fiance but over the other type of resource..... that is how generous and protective he was with / for me.
> 
> I hit the roof when I learned that he was paying for taxi fare and bar tabs with his "just a friend" ex. He wouldn't even wait at the bus stop for me at the end of date. And embarassed me in front of my friends, having partaken in a round but then didn't offer to get one for the group....... and then I saw a 3 figure bar tab that he closed when he was out with his EA and her friends.
> 
> ...


I hope he's your ex-fiance now!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Anubis said:


> My first thought was to stop buying her gifts and taking her to nice dinners, etc *and see what happens next... *


But would you even want to wait around after that revelation?

True story: I was going on dates with this man who I was highly/ridiculousy attracted to. He was going super slow and it was annoying me, lol. We never got to sleep together (dammit!) before it tapered off (I say "dammit" because it's been a LONG time for me and I totally thought he was going to get it!). We sort of drifted apart but had I found out that he was sleeping w/ someone else while going out with me, and not wanting to you know, reach out and touch me, I'd be even more pissed because I really wanted to sleep with him! LOL.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

norajane said:


> I hope he's your ex-fiance now!


We've worked it out. TAM has really given me perspective on it.

Best to get issues over ex's and OSFs dealt with sooner rather than later.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> But would you even want to wait around after that revelation?
> 
> True story: I was going on dates with this man who I was highly/ridiculousy attracted to. He was going super slow and it was annoying me, lol. We never got to sleep together (dammit!) before it tapered off (I say "dammit" because it's been a LONG time for me and I totally thought he was going to get it!). We sort of drifted apart but had I found out that he was sleeping w/ someone else while going out with me, and not wanting to you know, reach out and touch me, I'd be even more pissed because I really wanted to sleep with him! LOL.


I agree that if the guy isn't moving forward for sex, there might be something wrong. The guy I dated about 7 years ago, I am convinced that he is a closet gay. 

and even with my fiance, for a couple of months he was avoiding sex with me, and now I feel that it was because he was weighing up his options with his just a friend ex. I suppose that if they had gotten back together again, he could have said, I'm such a good guy, at least I wasn't using you for sex. While I think he was using me to make her jealous.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> While I think he was using me to make her jealous.


Ick.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> This is how I would 'guard my heart' (and self-respect):-
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have sex with someone if I wasn't in an exclusive relationship with them
> ...


Sometimes when you are in the single and dating world, and you are in a new situation with a lady or gent.... You have to wait for others fall off as you develop into "exclusive". She could have FWB's or other guys she was seeing lightly, and they usually don't drop them overnight.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: If you were courting a woman you were keen on*



always_alone said:


> I wasn't trying to blow raspberries; it was a serious question.
> 
> Of course, it's your prerogative to point and laugh and leave. But why assume she's not into you?
> 
> ...


The holding hands and blowing raspberries was an acknowledgement that I enjoy our discourse and even our disagreements.

In this case I truly believe you and I are on the same page. I'm also presuming that she is approaching sex in this fashion, with this man because she IS into him.
There was a thread with exactly that circumstance about a year ago. Party girl falls in love with man of her dreams and takes sex off the table. In the meantime man of her dreams ends up having a convo with a guy that slept with her, alluding to how wild in bed she is. Cue man of her dreams wondering WTF?

I know I'm misquoting but something that the poster indicated her partner said, stood out, it was along the lines of; "You don't give the greatest of gifts to those who matter least."

He couldnt get his head around why she was game for anything with a casual relationship, but didnt want to do or be associated with that behavior, when partnered with the man she claimed to love.

My point is, I don't get it either.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said: "We run into this dynamic all of the time, and the outcomes as a result, such as in this thread: you did it for other men, but not me?"

How is this the same? The wife in that thread did things BEFORE she met the husband.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Deejo said:


> The holding hands and blowing raspberries was an acknowledgement that I enjoy our discourse and even our disagreements.
> 
> In this case I truly believe you and I are on the same page. I'm also presuming that she is approaching sex in this fashion, with this man because she IS into him.
> There was a thread with exactly that circumstance about a year ago. Party girl falls in love with man of her dreams and takes sex off the table. In the meantime man of her dreams ends up having a convo with a guy that slept with her, alluding to how wild in bed she is. Cue man of her dreams wondering WTF?
> ...


i kind of get it, but I still don't agree with it, especially when it puts me in the one down position.

A hiring manager once told me that with job candidates that he wasn't interested in, the interview was easy. With the job candidates that he was interested in, he would grill them to ensure that they were right for the job. In this instance that's ok, because the desired outcome is the job offer which the first group of interviewees never get close to.

In relationships, I think it's ok to go slow and withhold or delay, if you will, the provision of goodies such as sex or special care and attention, as long as you are not giving it someone else.

Even though I wasn't working due to chemotherapy, ok I'll pay for my busfare and the cinema to show that I am not after you for your money. But f&cking hell, don't take that money that you saved and spend it on some other woman who is not making any sacrifice whatsoever to be with you. (and in this case had her own boyfriend). Yes, it has been a long road for us.......


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Aren't men, after all, the masters of distinguishing between the girl that's "just for fun" and the one that's "worthy" of LTR? Don't they pretty much make a point of using the "just for fun" girls as much as possible, without nary a thought of love or commitment, but be sure to treat the "worthy" one with respect and consideration?


Simultaneously?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....
> 
> 1. How would feel?
> 2. What would you do?


It depends on how long the courtship has gone far, if for like, 1 or 2 weeks, meh... but more than that?

1) I would assume she just ain't into me sexually / leading me on / playing the field / not LTR material etc etc
2) I would move on


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Simultaneously?


I assume so. At least until the sex life with the "worthy" one ramps up.

Not always, of course, as some guys do seem to prefer dating one at a time. But certainly many give the clear impression that any amount of celibacy is not to be tolerated, and even exclusivity is damaging to their wiring.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: If you were courting a woman you were keen on*



Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo said: "We run into this dynamic all of the time, and the outcomes as a result, such as in this thread: you did it for other men, but not me?"
> 
> How is this the same? The wife in that thread did things BEFORE she met the husband.


Don't care when she did them. How she chose to respond to her husband precipitated an outcome that I imagine neither of them much like.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But this question was about multi-dating, and things a woman you are currently dating is CURRENTLY doing with another man.

What happened in this hypothetical woman's past isn't on the table at all. I don't get your comparison in the least.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't get that dynamic where the woman is * supposed * to be into this man and very sexually attracted to him ,he treats her with utmost love , care and respect, but she refuses to get wild him as she did with other men who she was wild with in the past, but they treated her horribly.

That's why I've often said that having lots of sex before committing to one person is absolutely not an indicator on sexual maturation or compatibility between two people,after marriage. Having a _healthy_ attitude towards sex is .

The dynamic mentioned in the OP's example is _definitely not_ a healthy attitude toward sex. It is a selfish , entitled , narcissistic attitude.

Men who have been burned like that are the ones who are most likely to spread and reinforce the rumour that some women like to be treated a * certain * kind of negative way and then they will show that man respect respect.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This question wasn't about mutli-dating. It was about finding out the person you are dating is actually boffing someone else when they don't/won't sleep with you, knowing that you want to. So you think you are the only person they are spending time with...only to find out they are letting their privates spend time somewhere else.

As for that other thread... I am sure I'd have to grab some snacks if I were to start reading in there. LOL.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> What happened in this hypothetical woman's past isn't on the table at all. I don't get your comparison in the least.


I projected and put more meat on the bones of the issue than it may have warranted.

I associate 'courting' with something presumably serious. I was presuming this was a case of two people that were HEAVILY invested in one another with the high long term potential. If this is simply a case of a dude wants to date this girl who is sleeping with someone else then I guess I can understand why you don't get my comparison.

Else, I'm pretty sure it's you, because my comparisons are usually exceptionally brilliant.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....
> 
> 1. How would feel?
> 2. What would you do?
> ...


That's easy. Gone.....end of story. Sorry, didn't read all the responses.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

norajane said:


> I have to say that I've seen this with men, too. Some will go around having ONS's while they put the woman they want to "court" on a pedestal and will go slower with the sex part.
> 
> Both sexes do it, for different reasons.


Definitely...SOME of both sexes do it.

For me personally. I would NEVER do that (and never have) and I would never accept it being done to me.

Call me crazy, but one of my requirements for "The One" was that she was head over heels crazy for my body AND my mind. :smthumbup: (my wife is this woman  )

I went slow with EVERY woman I slept with because I wasn't looking for just a FB. My personal opinions about sex is that it's something very special and should be cherished, not thrown around like a piece of cake you share with everyone at the party.

Disclaimer: I don't say people who are freer with their sexual desires are wrong for it. They're not (men or women), lots of people have different opinions etc about it. The key is to find someone who shares your opinions. If you're promiscuous, you should probably look for promiscuous partners. It's easier. Not necessarily better, but definitely easier.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Jellybeans said:


> This question wasn't about mutli-dating. It was about finding out the person you are dating is actually boffing someone else when they don't/won't sleep with you, knowing that you want to. So you think you are the only person they are spending time with...only to find out they are letting their privates spend time somewhere else.
> 
> As for that other thread... I am sure I'd have to grab some snacksj *armor, and weapons* if I were to start reading in there. LOL.


This post has been moderated.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo, I concede that you are usually exceptionally brilliant.

I reserve the right to point it out when you aren't.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> I assume so. At least until the sex life with the "worthy" one ramps up.


I don't think so. It seems to me to violate the innate sense of 'right' and 'wrong' most people have regardless of gender. 

The comments on this thread are pretty typical IMHO.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo, I concede that you are usually exceptionally brilliant.
> 
> I reserve the right to point it out when you aren't.


And it is greatly appreciated.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Thunder7 said:


> That's easy. Gone.....end of story. Sorry, didn't read all the responses.


:rofl:


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

If they are not "exclusive", she is free to sleep with who she wants. She is actually sorta doing the good non-****ty thing here if you ask me. She is choosing to not sleep with more than one person. Which is the way it SHOULD be. If you are sleeping with someone, but not exclusive, date but don't sleep with anyone else until the sexual relationship is cut off. 

I don't know about this "guarding her heart" crap. It has nothing to do with her heart, she is just exploring her options but only taking off the panties for one of them right now. 

For the record, men do this sh*t all the time, except they typically just sleep with both women at the same time, just alternating nights. Which is worse.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

lisab0105 said:


> If they are not "exclusive", she is free to sleep with who she wants. She is actually sorta doing the good non-****ty thing here if you ask me. She is choosing to not sleep with more than one person. Which is the way it SHOULD be. If you are sleeping with someone, but not exclusive, date but don't sleep with anyone else until the sexual relationship is cut off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you're saying one thing but if it were happening to you.... If you had a boyfriend you wanted to be sexual with and he was denying you but continuing to sleep with someone else and have ONS with random women while letting you pay to take him on dates....I don't believe you would stick around. And if you would stick around it says to me that you don't feel very highly of yourself.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I get that the whole multi-dating, random sex, FWB stuff seems pretty accepted now, but I'm not good with it for myself.

I'd move on.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I get that the whole multi-dating, random sex, FWB stuff seems pretty accepted now, but I'm not good with it for myself.
> 
> I'd move on.


Word. Me, too.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Isn't simply time to have "THE talk"? Either we are exclusive or we are not. Period. 

If we are.... then sex will happen eventually. 

If we are not... then who I have sex with is nobody's business.

If you can't have this talk.... then you aren't ready for a relationship anyway.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

NextTimeAround said:


> i kind of get it, but I still don't agree with it, especially when it puts me in the one down position.
> 
> A hiring manager once told me that with job candidates that he wasn't interested in, the interview was easy. With the job candidates that he was interested in, he would grill them to ensure that they were right for the job. In this instance that's ok, because the desired outcome is the job offer which the first group of interviewees never get close to.
> 
> ...


Can we elaborate on some of the details, whether we are talking about a hypothetical or something that is/was actually happening to you NextTimeAround?

Whether we are talking about a male or female, if the point at issue is that one partner in an ongoing dating relationship has made clear they want to have sex, and the other partner has made it clear they do not ... all the while said partner is boffing someone else in another relationship; my advice is simple and straightforward.

Run.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Whether we are talking about a male or female, if the point at issue is that one partner in an ongoing dating relationship has made clear they want to have sex, and the other partner has made it clear they do not ... all the while said partner is boffing someone else in another relationship; my advice is simple and straightforward.
> 
> Run.


That's what I said! :rofl:

Ain't nobody got time for that!


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

"Hey, David, I know we've been dating a while, but I want you to know that I believe we should take it slow sexually. I don't want to jump into things too quickly because I've been hurt in the past by making that mistake. 

Oh Btw, I have a friend on the side that I've been screwing regularly and will continue to do so."

Me: naw, that ain't it. Wish you the best, later.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Davelli0331 said:


> "Hey, David, I know we've been dating a while, but I want you to know that I believe we should take it slow sexually. I don't want to jump into things too quickly because I've been hurt in the past by making that mistake.
> 
> Oh Btw, I have a friend on the side that I've been screwing regularly and will continue to do so."


Me: Cool. I've got a couple of those, too, so take your time figuring out if I'm the one, and I'll do the same.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....
> 
> 1. How would feel?
> 2. What would you do?
> ...


I've not read through the other responses, so I'm sorry if this has been said: Why even bother to guess at her reasoning or motivation? If you're not cool with it, then walk away.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think you're saying one thing but if it were happening to you.... If you had a boyfriend you wanted to be sexual with and he was denying you but continuing to sleep with someone else and have ONS with random women while letting you pay to take him on dates....I don't believe you would stick around. And if you would stick around it says to me that you don't feel very highly of yourself.


Well wait...the OP said courting someone a guy was keen on. That does not sound like "boyfriend". If they are not exclusive, there is nothing wrong with what she is doing. Perhaps she does see him in a more serious light, who the hell knows. It isn't the most detailed hypothetical. Just because he has paid for some dates, does not mean he is entitled to sleep with her. 

Since you brought up what I would I do, well, I don't want someone sleeping with me that is sleeping with someone else. I can handle non-exclusive dating as long as I am not sharing his d*ck with someone. If he isn't ready to sleep with me, but wants to keep dating and getting to know me, that is fine with me. When the exclusive talk happens and he wants to take it to that level, than he better have stopped all other sexual relationships.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I think it's kinda weird when two people who like and respect each other have to sit and " negotiate sexual exclusivity " as if it was a commodity on the futures market like wheat , coffee or cocoa.

I have never done that.
Back when I was singe, if a female showed interest in me ,I never tolerated competing with another for her undivided attention.. 

In fact, one of the first questions I used to ask if a girl showed interest was:- "_ are you seeing someone?_" If the answer was yes, then I didn't get involved with her.

I've never had to negotiate " exclusivity " with sex, in a relationship.
I considered that beneath me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

When we hear the term *"Courting"*, don't we all think of young love...innocent love...learning of each other , deepening a friendship with the intention of marrying....withholding the sex. 

A situation like this...sorry to be so graphic but , to me, this set up is like pouring another man's semen on the whole deal... it disgraces the meaning of the term...it has no place here. 

He is being USED...and if he is smart, he will dump her and allow her to continue with whatever thrills she is having with her friend.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Used??? 

So I am seeing three guys, I am only sleeping with one of them, though the other two would very much like to get in my pants. But, I am not ready to sleep with either of them yet. But I want to keep dating them and getting to know them. That is considered using someone because they aren't f*cking me like other guy?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> He is being USED...and if he is smart, he will dump her and allow her to continue with whatever thrills she is having with her friend.


:iagree:
She isn't ready for a relationship.
I remember when I was teaching my wife how to ride a bicycle , she was afraid to remove her feet off the ground and place them on the pedal, because she thought she'd fall.
I then explained to her that the only the bike could move was if she took her feet off the ground and put it on the pedal.
Once the bike was in motion, balance would come naturally.

Casual sex is like that. It's a comfort zone designed for people who don't want to take the risk of moving forward in a committed relationship. A casual sex arrangement goes nowhere.

Having casual sex while in a relationship with another person is unethical.
Having casual sex whilst in a relationship with another person and refusing to have sex with that person is even worse.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

lisab0105 said:


> Used???
> 
> So I am seeing three guys, I am only sleeping with one of them, though the other two would very much like to get in my pants. But, I am not ready to sleep with either of them yet. But I want to keep dating them and getting to know them. That is considered using someone because they aren't f*cking me like other guy?


No, because they're investing their time and emotions in you with legitimate expectations and you're not reciprocating, neither are you prepared to.
The relationship is one sided hence that type of behaviour is unethical.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lisab0105 said:


> *Used??? *
> 
> So I am seeing three guys, I am only sleeping with one of them, though the other two would very much like to get in my pants. But, I am not ready to sleep with either of them yet. But I want to keep dating them and getting to know them. That is considered using someone because they aren't f*cking me like other guy?


Yes -If I was the man I would feel USED...good enough to get to know, have dinner with, spend $$ on her...share experiences....invest emotionally....but not enough to sleep with...after all she is doing her friend..maybe after the date is over even! 

So the man you are sleeping with wouldn't mind you are dating 2 other men ? 

Some of us can not relate to this , that would piss my Bf off -I would get dumped REAL FAST....he would not even consider me if I was sleeping with another...I'd have to be FREE from all... a new slate... so our time & affections would be solely devoted to each other...to see where that might go.

The problem with all of these questions is this... people have different sexual views..and this mucks up understanding , sometimes to a high degree, because we ASSUME the other person views things as we do...and this is not always the case. 

Maybe this man only sleeps with women in a committed relationship... why else would he be the "courting type"- if he is... Not sure who used that word... Then other men have some unwritten rule...sex by date 3 or she is history, a game player....so he is obviously a little more gentlemanly...over that type.

Maybe it would be a no brainer for him, once he entered a new relationship..if he even had a FWB's -that would automatically be put on Hold.... out of pure respect for the person he is getting to know...

If this woman is allowing him to whine & dine her.. while sleeping with her friend...Yes, I find it utterly disgraceful....as CM said...UN-ethical....


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## HeartInPieces (Sep 13, 2013)

lisab0105 said:


> Used???
> 
> So I am seeing three guys, I am only sleeping with one of them, though the other two would very much like to get in my pants. But, I am not ready to sleep with either of them yet. But I want to keep dating them and getting to know them. That is considered using someone because they aren't f*cking me like other guy?


I kind of agree with. 

If both of the other guys know what going on, then whatever happens is on them. If they still want to continue putting time and energy into then that’s their choice. If they don’t then they can move on to the next one.

My opinion would change if the other two are still in the dark. Then I would see that as using them.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

What is unethical is sleeping with more than one person. The OP isn't talking about a boyfriend. He is talking about a guy dating someone. Clearly not exclusive. Just because money is being spent, doesn't mean sex is to happen. That is bullsh*t. 
People are allowed to casually date multiple people, but they should not be sleeping with all of them. And they definately are not obligated to sleep with each of them simply because they are occasionally buying her dinner. 

And no SA, I am not seeing multiple people. My scenario was strictly hypothetical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> but you have not reached the point where she agreed to start having sex with you although you have asked ....... but then you found out that she had FB / FWB going on or at had an ONS during this same time period.....
> 
> 1. How would feel?
> 2. What would you do?
> ...


If it was a guy saying this, you can be sure it is utter bullsh!t. 

Women aren't that much different than men in this regard so ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

lisab0105 said:


> Used???
> 
> So I am seeing three guys, I am only sleeping with one of them, though the other two would very much like to get in my pants. But, I am not ready to sleep with either of them yet. But I want to keep dating them and getting to know them. That is considered using someone because they aren't f*cking me like other guy?


I just find the perspective you are arguing to be ironically funny. The situation you describe used to be solely the purview of men. You go girl!
And no, I don't expect the boys to like it any better than the girls did when they discover they are part of a dating posse, when they presumed you were exclusive.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Should I re-sticky the multi-dating thread?
> 
> Not to derail
> 
> ...


The issue from my perspective is complicated ... lot of grey areas. Don't want to spend too much time dissecting it without more details. I started to respond but there are too many "what-ifs". 

I see myself back on the dating scene within the next two years. I don't think the question to my marriage is "if" anymore rather than "when" it ends. So ... trying to visualize how I would stand on this. I know that I am not built for multi-dating. My boundary is that if she has sex with me, sex with others stops or sex with me stops. Before that happens though is very muddled and my answer is ... depends. I will say that the whole "protecting my heart" theory would not fly with me.

It also brought the multi-dating thread to mind.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I just find the perspective you are arguing to be ironically funny. The situation you describe used to be solely the purview of men.


Yes. And there were/are some pretty colorful pejoratives for that type of man.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> A couple of women are arguing that the above scenario is perfectly ok. The woman is "delaying sex" with the one she really cares about as a way to guard her heart.



I can relate to that, sex with FWB and someone I have a real connection with is very different experiences imo,
there is emotional investment (for me anyway) with sex with someone I care about and it always took me more time to prepare for that. 

*BUT*

seeing someone you have a connection with (enough of a connection to go on a second date with them least) and keeping FWB situation going at the same time.....no.......just no.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

lisab0105 said:


> What is unethical is sleeping with more than one person.


There is nothing intrinsically wrong with having sex with two people at the same time , just like there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a man dating and sleeping with a 45 yr mother and being fcuk buddies with her 22 yr old daughter.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a divorced mother having sex with her son's 18 yr old best friend.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a doctor having consensual sex with his any of his female patients.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong in a 60 yr old business owner who seeks out and has sex with his young ,poor , financially challenged female employees.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a judge having sexual relationships with attorneys from a particular chamber/ firm, whilst they represent clients in his/ her courts.

But we are not wild animals . We have a more developed brain and we can reason , hence ,we have developed a code of unwritten rules that can help inform our choices and behaviors called ethics.
Ethics based on the fundamental principle of :-
" _do unto others like you would have them do unto you."
_
That is what makes the OP's and other such situations unethical.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Yes. And there were/are some pretty colorful pejoratives for that type of man.


Long ago we used to call him the " village ram."
No parent would want their daughter involved with him. His actions made him unsuitable for marriage or LTR, because he was unable or unwilling to commit.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

OP, if I somehow found myself in this situation I wouldn't stick around and I'd be upset that I wasted my time dating this person. My thoughts are that if someone is into you this isn't an issue. They'd cast all others aside. 

People waste so much time trying to get something out of individuals that are withholding what they desire (usually commitment or sex.). Only to break up and find that "he married his next girlfriend within a year" or "she hooked with her next boyfriend on the first date". 

When situations like this happen I can only assume that the level of feelings in the relationship is unbalanced. The party that is withholding may not even know it until they "click" with someone else.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Even in my multi-dating years I used to stop dating others if I started seeing one particular man on a regular basis. If it reached the 'more than a hug / peck on the cheek' stage, the multi-dating stopped.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> Even in my multi-dating years I used to stop dating others if I started seeing one particular man on a regular basis. If it reached the 'more than a hug / peck on the cheek' stage, the multi-dating stopped.


Agreed, I know a few divorced men that multi-date. We're talking coffee and lunch for the most part. No sex. Just getting to know the women before getting serious.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lisab0105 said:


> What is unethical is sleeping with more than one person. The OP isn't talking about a boyfriend. He is talking about a guy dating someone. Clearly not exclusive. Just because money is being spent, doesn't mean sex is to happen. That is bullsh*t.
> *People are allowed to casually date multiple people, but they should not be sleeping with all of them. And they definetely are not obligated to sleep with each of them simply because they are occasionally buying her dinner. *


 I posted on that Casual dating thread... I have a totally different approach, I don't see a problem with getting to know a few men at one time..If I was newly single and looking to find another love of my life... I wouldn't want to waste time..and spread myself out.. but where I draw all lines...is *NO SEX TILL I find "the one"*...we are exclusive... and I would be upfront about that..also I would want to pay for my own meals / my own way - so I didn't feel like I was using anyone...(more of a friends thing in getting to know each other)

What I learned from that thread is this.. Most men would have a problem with that too ! Even my own husband would... cause I asked him! So if I wanted to get to know him.. .I'd have to drop my idea of casual No sex dating - to please him - to see if we had something... it's all about honest communication..and caring how the other feels... I would agree with that. 

I am all for a girl "guarding her heart"... which makes me too old fashioned for the majority of men.. I do not, can not , nor have any desire to separate Love & sex, that is my right -to feel as I do... just as you have the right to do what you want.. if you can find men who are OK with it.. as Deejo said.. ."Go girl!"... 

But I wouldn't respect that position as a Man, nor do I respect it -when men behave like that (they are NOT my type)... I would have more respect for the man who has a "Courting" approach though....but even in this, some take it really far.. some don't even believe in kissing or hand holding -till marriage (all extremes out there)....but a man who is willing to wait for a special woman.. respecting how she feels...this is a rare find in today's society...that's just my opinion... to be out there casually sleeping with someone else with a man like that in the wings... Oh goodness... something is pathetically wrong with this scenario... 

I mentioned this thread to my husband, he felt the same as I... she needs dumped immediately & he's being used, he called such a man a "FOOL" . 

The word "courtship" itself comes from the idea of having "courtly" manners - manners fit for the court of a ruling sovereign; I think that it's a huge indicator of how a person thinks when they behave in a courteous manner toward all they encounter.

It's the only reason I clicked on this thread ...and feel again...it has no place -if the woman is sleeping with another , it doesn't FIT at all...again, it disgraces the term.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Agreed, I know a few divorced men that multi-date. We're talking coffee and lunch for the most part. No sex. Just getting to know the women before getting serious.


Right from the start, my SO (a very traditional sort of man) put a lot of thought and effort into our dates and, even if I had still been a multi-dater, it would have felt so very wrong to accept his obvious interest, kindness and generosity whilst dating others. Besides, I couldn't keep my hands off the lovely creature from that very first date!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> it's all about honest communication..and caring how the other feels... I would agree with that.


:iagree:
...and right there is where the issue of ethics comes in.

I think everyone would have a different approach to dating and sex, different standards and so on.

But nobody wants to feel like they were deceived and played for a fool in any relationship, whether casual sex [ believe it or nor!] or dating.

I don't know anyone , male or female who wouldn't have a problem if someone they like and are investing time, feelings and other resources into, told them that they are having good sex with another person who doesn't even invest anything in them or show interest in them beyond sex.
Just don't make sense, especially if that person wasn't interested in having sex with them, but freely accepted their dates , time on the phone listening to their " issues" , undivided attention and gifts.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> In fact, one of the first questions I used to ask if a girl showed interest was:- "_ are you seeing someone?_" If the answer was yes, then I didn't get involved with her.
> 
> I considered that beneath me.


:iagree:



Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> She isn't ready for a relationship.
> 
> Having casual sex whilst in a relationship with another person and refusing to have sex with that person is even worse.





SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes -If I was the man I would feel USED...good enough to get to know, have dinner with, spend $$ on her...share experiences....invest emotionally....but not enough to sleep with...after all she is doing her friend..maybe after the date is over even!


:iagree:

I would feel pretty upset after spending an awesome evening with a guy I was connecting with and going on several dates with to find out that he had left our date to go straight to fvck someone else...while not sleeping with me, knowing full well I wanted to cause he wanted to "wait" and essentially sleep with someone else. OMG. 

I'd feel so rejected/hurt.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Could this just be a manifestation of simple cake eating? Screwing the sexy alpha and getting the soft trait needs from a doormat level beta?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

This reminds me of the film "Saturday Night Fever" in which the main female character who wanted to hang with Tony Manero and hiss buddies accused Tony near the beginning of the film of being able to have sex with her but not able to be seen on the dancefloor with her.

This seemed to be a common theme when I was growing up (teenager in the 70s), that is, that if you "put out" the guy won't respect you, he'll take your sex and choose someone else to be his real girlfriend.

Personally, I don't believe that about men now. I think they want a whole relationship with a woman. And of course, a guy who considers a woman a wh*re for engaging in sex outside of marriage under any circumstances is suggesting that he has a whole of list of values that we won't agree on..... 

But I imagine, some women may think that men need challenge and that withholding sex for awhile, until engagement; until marriage...... is the kind of challenge that a guy is looking for. 

And well, satisfying her needs elsewhere apparently does not come into the equation.

Thanks for all the responses. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the one who was crazy for thinking that such an arrangement was, well, crazy.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

At first I agreed with those that said men do this too, but after some thought I don't agree with this. Sure there are situations where both the man and the woman both choose to wait for sex. There are also many scenarios when a man is dating a women that he really likes but she wants to wait, so he gets sex elsewhere (not saying this is right). 

However, in the scenario described by the OP the man actually wants to have sex with the woman and she is getting it elsewhere. If this scenario were reversed and a man was dating two women, if the woman he wasn't sleeping with wanted sex with him he wouldn't hold out. He's already having sex anyway. He wouldn't turn down more sex with a new partner. Our brains just don't work that way. 

I now see this situation as about control. The male in this situation is setting himself up to be the "support guy/friend". What's even worse is that he is footing the bill for dates. Most guys that are locked in the "friend zone" are there to provide emotional support. This poor sap has to do that and also pay for dinner dates. Its sad really, there are some guys that go their whole lives thinking this is the best way to find their mate. Most men learn this approach is flawed before they leave high school.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Saving yourself doesn’t ‘make you’ a higher value to me when I know you don’t value sex like that. Your FWB relationship tells me you can enjoy sex just for the fun of it rather than some big statement about how you feel about me. 

So, for me, if you do this thinking somehow this would benefit the relationship, you’d be completely wrong. It simply tells me you see the relationship as a reflection through my eyes; It’s about how I ‘might see you’ and doing what you can to manipulate it instead of showing me the real you. You are sexual, pretending not to be under the guise of ‘not wanting to muddy the feelings’. Who you are, doesn’t get any clearer when you are shown to be different than the image you show me. Instead you look a lot more bi-polar... 

This assumes the relationship I have with you is more than “just friends” been ongoing and growing and is at least talking about a possible future together. If we’ve just gone out a few times and a long way from serious, it’s not a biggy in my head.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Deejo said:


> We run into this dynamic all of the time, and the outcomes as a result, such as in this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/151474-you-did-other-men-but-not-me.html
> 
> I have seen this again and again. And for all of the posturing that takes place between the sexes here, I have to say, this one makes no sense to me whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Oh my, you're starting to sound like me............


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