# Second best, or real deal?



## HarryBosch

Getting out these days finds me at the American Legion hall where you hear a lot of stories.

Recently a gentleman who I have had conversations with in the past shared his own divorce story and a dilemma he now faces in regards to that divorce. It seems "Ray", and that is what I will call him, recently received a phone call from his divorced wife of four years. They have talked in the past, but this time she invited him over for coffee. He thought it was odd, but decided to go. The gist of the conversation was that she wanted to know if they could see each other more, and if he would be interested in possibly dating again.

Ray is in his Fifties, and the divorce began over the death of their grown son, and his abuse of alcohol. His story was quite sad. 

He asked me if I thought her options had played out and she was going back to him because those options played out, or did I think she genuinely wanted him back.

I pose the question here because the cynic in me says the former and I want to believe the latter.


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## Andy1001

After four years I would tell her that I’ve moved on. He’s plan B, that’s all.


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## Numb26

Plan B. She found out that the grass wasn't greener.


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## HarryBosch

Numb26 said:


> Plan B. She found out that the grass wasn't greener.


Exactly what I thought.. it killed me to say that and quash any hopes I could see in his eyes.


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## TexasMom1216

I misread the original post. I thought the son was abusing alcohol, I didn’t realize it was the husband.


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## DownByTheRiver

HarryBosch said:


> Getting out these days finds me at the American Legion hall where you hear a lot of stories.
> 
> Recently a gentleman who I have had conversations with in the past shared his own divorce story and a dilemma he now faces in regards to that divorce. It seems "Ray", and that is what I will call him, recently received a phone call from his divorced wife of four years. They have talked in the past, but this time she invited him over for coffee. He thought it was odd, but decided to go. The gist of the conversation was that she wanted to know if they could see each other more, and if he would be interested in possibly dating again.
> 
> Ray is in his Fifties, and the divorce began over the death of their grown son, and his abuse of alcohol. His story was quite sad.
> 
> He asked me if I thought her options had played out and she was going back to him because those options played out, or did I think she genuinely wanted him back.
> 
> I pose the question here because the cynic in me says the former and I want to believe the latter.


I wouldn't suspect her of that at all. I mean, a lot of couples break up over the trauma of losing a child. For lots of reasons. Depression, associations, the constant reminder. I think she's healed a little and wants to see how he is and if there's anything left there. 

However, if they were having big problems before this son died unrelated to the son, then I would consider other motives, of course.


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## HarryBosch

TexasMom1216 said:


> I’d say the same thing to a woman. No matter why it ended, it’s been too long for her to have second thoughts.


 Are you saying at some point there is a point of no return?


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## *Deidre*

If they divorced over severe trauma (death of their son sounds incredibly traumatizing) and his alcohol abuse, I don’t know…she may have healed now and could see “Ray” in a new light. It may be that her other options didn’t pan out but maybe she always loved Ray but sometimes, trauma can hurt a couple to a point where breaking up seems like the only way at the time.

I don’t know if I’d recommend getting back involved with her again but I see this a little differently than the usual divorce story where infidelity was involved etc…


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## RebuildingMe

Tell him once you put the trash on the street, let the garbage men pick it up and haul it away.


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## lifeistooshort

I don't know why she's being vilified here....their grown sin died and he was a drunk. Sounds like a good reason for her to leave.

This hardly a grass ain't greener type scenario. She might miss him, especially if he's stopped drinking.


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## lifeistooshort

RebuildingMe said:


> Tell him once you put the trash on the street, let the garbage men pick it up and haul it away.



Why is the woman who left the drunk trash?


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## anchorwatch

Only based on the death of a child and his alcoholism, and since no other reasons were given... I'd say it is possible that the healing of those awful wounds would allow for some sort of a relationship. Four years is a long time and they are familiar with each other. I assume alone. 

As for him being plan B... I'm pretty sure most can easily do better than an alcoholic.


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## HarryBosch

lifeistooshort said:


> She might miss him, especially if he's stopped drinking.


He hasn't quit drinking, he doesn't get drunk, he has a couple and then he usually leaves.. who knows. I'm still a cynic, but she might actually miss him... but does that happen after four years?


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## lifeistooshort

HarryBosch said:


> He hasn't quit drinking, he doesn't get drunk, he has a couple and then he usually leaves.. who knows. I'm still a cynic, but she might actually miss him... but does that happen after four years?


You said he was abusing alcohol.

What does that mean?


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## anchorwatch

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't know why she's being vilified here....their grown sin died and he was a drunk. Sounds like a good reason for her to leave.
> 
> This hardly a grass ain't greener type scenario. She might miss him, especially if he's stopped drinking.


 Your work is never done


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't know why she's being vilified here....their grown sin died and he was a drunk. Sounds like a good reason for her to leave.
> 
> This hardly a grass ain't greener type scenario. She might miss him, especially if he's stopped drinking.


I think it would depend on what she has been doing for four years.

I won't vilify her but she is far from saintly to this barbarian.

She didn't just get some space and stay with friends and relatives for a while, she divorced while he was coping, negatively, by alcohol abuse.

More details could help but I'm mostly a for better or worse man and she cut and ran.

If she tried out some other men, I would advise him to keep the status quo. 

I went through a trauma a while back and was nearly useless for months and abused alcohol.

Mrs. Conan did not look for something better.


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> I think it would depend on what she has been doing for four years.
> 
> I won't vilify her but she is far from saintly to this barbarian.
> 
> She didn't just get some space and stay with friends and relatives for a while, she divorced while he was coping, negatively, by alcohol abuse.
> 
> More details could help but I'm mostly a for better or worse man and she cut and ran.
> 
> If she tried out some other men, I would advise him to keep the status quo.
> 
> I went through a trauma a while back and was nearly useless for months and abused alcohol.
> 
> Mrs. Conan did not look for something better.


Maybe. We definitely are missing details, because in the first post he says the guy abused alcohol and then he said he doesn't get drunk, which is why I asked what that means.

I can appreciate the better or worse thing but I don't think one is obligated to stay with an addict.

We don't know how long he abused it, how bad it was, or anything she may have tried to help. We'd never advise someone with am addict spouse to stick around forever.

I don't think leaving an addict if you've made reasonable efforts to help is unreasonable, and when people divorce they tend to see others.

How do you know he hasn't tried out other women? Is that ok?


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## HarryBosch

lifeistooshort said:


> You said he was abusing alcohol.
> 
> What does that mean?


He told me he drank himself into oblivion, never abused her physically. He drowned himself in booze and got help for it (How much help is speculative because he still drinks)

My opinion is if you can't quit the bottle, whats the use? I said as much. People look for change in my estimation, at least that far out you would think SOME change has occurred, but still hanging on to that bottle wouldn't be enough change in my opinion. 

I'm still curious of the point of no return... at what point do you just walk away? No matter how much change has occurred?

I thought of my own circumstances.. how many years pass before two people see each other differently? Good or worse?


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## frusdil

This one is a tricky one, many marriages don't survive the death of a child. It could be that with the passing of time the fog has lifted, and she realises she misses him.

I too would like clarification on his abuse of alcohol. Was he falling down drunk all the time, or is she a tee-totaller and couldn't tolerate his a couple of drinks type scenario.


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## HarryBosch

frusdil said:


> is she a tee-totaller and couldn't tolerate his a couple of drinks type scenario.


 That I don't know, but from the way it was told, he would come home and have zero clues as to how he got there... she had enough and packed her stuff and left. He got divorce papers two months later. He hasn't been with a woman since the last time he was with his wife, her? He doesn't know. I can see he still loves her, and he doesn't care who she has been with, but that love doesn't seem to get through the fact he needs to quit drinking altogether.


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## lifeistooshort

HarryBosch said:


> He told me he drank himself into oblivion, never abused her physically. He drowned himself in booze and got help for it (How much help is speculative because he still drinks)
> 
> My opinion is if you can't quit the bottle, whats the use? I said as much. People look for change in my estimation, at least that far out you would think SOME change has occurred, but still hanging on to that bottle wouldn't be enough change in my opinion.
> 
> I'm still curious of the point of no return... at what point do you just walk away? No matter how much change has occurred?
> 
> I thought of my own circumstances.. how many years pass before two people see each other differently? Good or worse?


How long was he like this?

Did she try to help?

This is toughe.....their child died. While he drank himself into oblivion she had to cope without him. A lot of marriages wouldn't survive that.


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## anchorwatch

HarryBosch said:


> I'm still curious of the point of no return... at what point do you just walk away? No matter how much change has occurred?
> 
> I thought of my own circumstances.. how many years pass before two people see each other differently? Good or worse?


Harry, I see now you're imagining this scenario in your situation. No one can answer the question of where two people can be in some future time... where all the stars align. If you dwell on these types of things you will stagnate in your recovery. Drop the rope.

Best


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe. We definitely are missing details, because in the first post he says the guy abused alcohol and then he said he doesn't get drunk, which is why I asked what that means.
> 
> I can appreciate the better or worse thing but I don't think one is obligated to stay with an addict.
> 
> We don't know how long he abused it, how bad it was, or anything she may have tried to help. We'd never advise someone with am addict spouse to stick around forever.
> 
> I don't think leaving an addict if you've made reasonable efforts to help is unreasonable, and when people divorce they tend to see others.
> 
> How do you know he hasn't tried out other women? Is that ok?


Without more information, I'm not in favor. The reason I have a focus on her behavior is because she divorced him and now is trying to get him back. Her behavior for the four years should be examined in light of her being the one who decided to divorce and now is trying to get it going again.

You can't always get what you want and this woman is pulling her exes strings a bit too much.


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## HarryBosch

anchorwatch said:


> Harry, I see now you're imagining this scenario in your situation. No one can answer the question of where two people can be in some future time... where all the stars align. If you dwell on these types of things you will stagnate in your recovery. Drop the rope.
> 
> Best


 I think when we hear someones story we sometimes think of our own circumstances. I'm guilty of that many times as I hear stories here. I don't dwell on the past like I used to for the simple reason that I broke someone and I don't think that is recoverable. 

I do however have compassion. In our quest to meet others, we come upon those that suffer from divorce much like we do. The bar probably has more than its fair share, but nevertheless, others are suffering. I told him about this web site. Who knows, he may register and tell his own story. I posted because although I still have a long road, I don't know if I'm in a place to offer good advice.. so who better to ask than folks here who have heard it all?

I wasn't off base in my assessment... and that to me is progress.


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## DownByTheRiver

HarryBosch said:


> He hasn't quit drinking, he doesn't get drunk, he has a couple and then he usually leaves.. who knows. I'm still a cynic, but she might actually miss him... but does that happen after four years?


She cared about him once and then she was overwhelmed by the death of her son. She may just want to see how he's doing because she cared about him once or it might be more.


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## DownByTheRiver

HarryBosch said:


> He told me he drank himself into oblivion, never abused her physically. He drowned himself in booze and got help for it (How much help is speculative because he still drinks)
> 
> My opinion is if you can't quit the bottle, whats the use? I said as much. People look for change in my estimation, at least that far out you would think SOME change has occurred, but still hanging on to that bottle wouldn't be enough change in my opinion.
> 
> I'm still curious of the point of no return... at what point do you just walk away? No matter how much change has occurred?
> 
> I thought of my own circumstances.. how many years pass before two people see each other differently? Good or worse?


When you have your reconcilable differences and that's not likely to change for whatever reason, that's the point of no return for many.


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## RebuildingMe

lifeistooshort said:


> Why is the woman who left the drunk trash?


I didn’t get that he was a drunk. What I interpreted is that she looked for better, didn’t find it and now she wants him back. This my recommendation is to leave her in the trash.


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## frusdil

HarryBosch said:


> That I don't know, but from the way it was told, he would come home and have zero clues as to how he got there... she had enough and packed her stuff and left. He got divorce papers two months later. He hasn't been with a woman since the last time he was with his wife, her? He doesn't know. I can see he still loves her, and he doesn't care who she has been with, but that love doesn't seem to get through the fact he needs to quit drinking altogether.


Ok that's bad. If it went on for years I can understand why she left honestly. If a few months and started following the death of their son, it seems harsh that she'd leave him straight up.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

I’m in the camp that SHE may be making the mistake.

but yeah, you can view someone differently with the passage of time.

doesn’t mean you are always right in your new view of them


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## Enigma32

It seems to me like she had a legit reason to get away from Ray. I also think that dating seems to get harder and harder as we get older, and she's probably looking back and thinking Ray is the best she can get, especially if he has improved his situation. That doesn't mean she wouldn't quickly change her mind once she got back with Ray, because then all the reasons she walked away will become obvious to her again.


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## oldshirt

Has he truly dried out and cleaned up?? 

Has he and she both received treatment for their grief and have moved on to live functional lives? 

Would they be able to have a functional and healthy life together now? 

In a nutshell are they both different and healthy people now than what they were at the time of the divorce?

There's no shame for him that she isn't able to get with Ryan Gossling. 

As harsh as it sounds, we are all our partner's 27,972,953th choice and they are ours. 

If they are both in a healthy place and are compatible for each other now, then why not???


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## HarryBosch

oldshirt said:


> Has he truly dried out and cleaned up??


 He's at the Legion Hall bar, drinking. I don't see any drying out. Maybe I'm just a bit pessimistic.


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## Openminded

I think she’s making a mistake if he’s still drinking but maybe she’s okay with _some_ drinking as long as it’s not as much as it was before.


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> Without more information, I'm not in favor. The reason I have a focus on her behavior is because she divorced him and now is trying to get him back. Her behavior for the four years should be examined in light of her being the one who decided to divorce and now is trying to get it going again.
> 
> You can't always get what you want and this woman is pulling her exes strings a bit too much.


He's since offered more information.

The guy drank himself into oblivion but it was only for 2 months which isn't very long.

My next question would be did he drink too much before their child's passing? What was the state of the marriage prior? My feeling is that she wanted out and this pushed her over the edge.

How justified that was depends on many things. Many marriages end after the loss of a child.

My fear would be that the issues are still there, so it's probably not a good idea. But he's alone, still loves her, and apparently doesn't care if there were other men during the past 4 years so don't know.

If he'd moved on with his life I'd tell him to keep going.

Thet both need a lot of counseling.


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## Mr.Married

No matter the reason, no matter the fault, no matter if you are plan A, B, C, or D….. never look back.


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## hamadryad

Not enough to make a fair evaluation, but I'd think it's also unfair to just assume she is seeing him as a fall back. 

The death of a child could really do a lot of people in. I've witnessed it personally with someone I know, so maybe I see it from a different perspective. 

I've always thought it's very tough to re ignite that fire or chemistry that once was, if it's been fully extinguished. But maybe she still has feelings for the guy and now that the death has been processed to some degree, thinks it may be worth a shot? I dunno, I just think it's unfair to see the woman as trash and not worthy of any consideration.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

At that age, with those troubles, if they decide to have a couple dates so what. It may not work out, so what. It may, maybe they'll help each other more now, with some time to process things in their past.

It's not terribly surprising they both may want to at least get together to chat.


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> He's since offered more information.
> 
> The guy drank himself into oblivion but it was only for 2 months which isn't very long.
> 
> My next question would be did he drink too much before their child's passing? What was the state of the marriage prior? My feeling is that she wanted out and this pushed her over the edge.
> 
> How justified that was depends on many things. Many marriages end after the loss of a child.
> 
> My fear would be that the issues are still there, so it's probably not a good idea. But he's alone, still loves her, and apparently doesn't care if there were other men during the past 4 years so don't know.
> 
> If he'd moved on with his life I'd tell him to keep going.
> 
> Thet both need a lot of counseling.


Yup. No argument about losing a child. That alone can do it without any other factors.

He might want her back but it might not be the healthiest choice he could make.


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## Rob_1

She's the one making the mistake. If I were her I wouldn't try to get back with him. Based in the little info, this guy can't cope plus the Alcohol. why go back to that?


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## Lostinthought61

unfortunately neither one of them really worked togther on addressing the loss of their son....he turned to drinking and she to distanting herself.....i am not really sure what coming back together will resolve, they are still greifing parents who must deal with this loss. Otherwise i see them evenetually going back to their same routine. No one is breaking the cycle


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## Zedd

In the interest of fairness, I'm the child of an abusive alcoholic, and it certainly affects my perspective. So...

I guess, given the additional information, I don't see him as a plan B. The way I see it, is he divorced himself from reality leaving her partner-less and coping with everything on her own when they should have been coping together. He failed her. She just filled out the paperwork to make it legal, seeing no end in sight. He'd already left her.

I don't see any harm in hearing her out, and maybe it'll be enough to get him to quit showing up at the Legion so often and finally course-correct his life.


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## lifeistooshort

Lostinthought61 said:


> unfortunately neither one of them really worked togther on addressing the loss of their son....he turned to drinking and she to distanting herself.....i am not really sure what coming back together will resolve, they are still greifing parents who must deal with this loss. Otherwise i see them evenetually going back to their same routine. No one is breaking the cycle


We don't even know that she was distant
All we know was that he coped with alcohol.

Maybe she wanted his support but he was unavailable to her.


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## Lostinthought61

lifeistooshort said:


> We don't even know that she was distant
> All we know was that he coped with alcohol.
> 
> Maybe she wanted his support but he was unavailable to her.


Perhaps, what i am suggesting is that we still have an impass because if both of them are not addressing their individual grief then the odd of them of couplinng again with a success conclusion is slim.


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## Alittlelost57

Ray wasn't wronged. His wife didn't leave him while he was "coping", he abandoned her in a pretty cowardly fashion when he climbed into a bottle. He killed any chance they had of coping together with the loss of their son.

I kind of hope she's seeking advice somewhere and getting called out on why she'd try again with Ray.


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## Anastasia6

HarryBosch said:


> Getting out these days finds me at the American Legion hall where you hear a lot of stories.
> 
> Recently a gentleman who I have had conversations with in the past shared his own divorce story and a dilemma he now faces in regards to that divorce. It seems "Ray", and that is what I will call him, recently received a phone call from his divorced wife of four years. They have talked in the past, but this time she invited him over for coffee. He thought it was odd, but decided to go. The gist of the conversation was that she wanted to know if they could see each other more, and if he would be interested in possibly dating again.
> 
> Ray is in his Fifties, and the divorce began over the death of their grown son, and his abuse of alcohol. His story was quite sad.
> 
> He asked me if I thought her options had played out and she was going back to him because those options played out, or did I think she genuinely wanted him back.
> 
> I pose the question here because the cynic in me says the former and I want to believe the latter.


A death of a child often times leads to divorce. It's a huge emotional upheaval that many aren't ready for. Your friend abused alcohol. Who knows how he was or his wife was during this time. But perhaps with time and distance the wife has a better handle on the death of her son and her feelings for Ray also perhaps Ray drinks less now. 

If I was Ray and I wanted to date her, I would. They may find they can recover. The question really is does Ray know why they are divorced? Has he dealt with the death? Does he drink less now? The death itself will heal with time usually. But other issues may or may not be resolved. Dating would allow them to see if the new people who have emerged on the other side of the death of their child are still compatible.


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## ABHale

What’s the use of quitting it there is no one at home waiting on him.

It’s just a faster way to not feel lonely anymore. He lost his son then his wife, I can understand why he still drinks.


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## Evinrude58

If he was abusing alcohol, she did right to leave him. Sounds like a chance worth taking, although little details given


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## Marc878

HarryBosch said:


> Exactly what I thought.. it killed me to say that and quash any hopes I could see in his eyes.


Hopium can be strong. He’s already hooked. Nothing you can do or day.


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## Marc878

Only married 4 years so it wasn’t their child.
It’s probably nostalgia on her part. That won’t last.
There’s nothing worse than loving with a drunk. If he’s still drinking how long will it be before he gets lost in the bottle again.


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## Wolfman1968

This thread has insufficient information for me to really form an opinion. If the OP knew the marriage well before the divorce, he might be in the best position to make a call.

What was their marriage like before? Did they deeply care for each other? Was a love for the ages destroyed by circumstances of the son's death? In that case, there might be more to go back to. If the marriage was just, "meh", then why would she want to go back to it? Is it just better than being alone/lack of alternative options?

What about his drinking? Was he never a problem drinker before, and it was a brief time of problem drinking related to the loss of the son? In that case, would his drinking be akin to, say, a wife developing a prolonged psychotic reaction after the death of a child? In either case, the adverse behavior may make the individual impossible to live with, but if confined to a certain amount of time, may be something that can be overcome with enough support. The addictive part of alcoholism poses a problem, but does your friend display addictive alcohol behavior since then, or even before then? I think there's a difference between alcohol which was misused as a tool during an extraordinary period of grief vs. alcohol use which is part of an addictive process or a long-term behavioral pattern.

Were there things that were said/done during the unraveling of the marriage that may be considered as "unforgivable" or at least huge obstacles? Things that "cannot be taken back?"

What are the basic personalities of the man and woman involved?


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## HarryBosch

Just an update.. he has decided in order for him to have anything to do with his former wife, he has to quit drinking. He believes in order to be with any one, the love affair with the bottle has to end. 

We didn't talk long, he just mentioned it when I saw him at the grocery store, it was pretty brief.. almost like he was embarrassed.


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## lifeistooshort

That's great news. No matter what he decides the drinking isn't good for him.

Once he sobers up his head will be a lot clearer.


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## ConanHub

HarryBosch said:


> Just an update.. he has decided in order for him to have anything to do with his former wife, he has to quit drinking. He believes in order to be with any one, the love affair with the bottle has to end.
> 
> We didn't talk long, he just mentioned it when I saw him at the grocery store, it was pretty brief.. almost like he was embarrassed.


That's good. Getting a grip on his drinking is way positive.

His ex is an entirely other matter.


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## ArthurGPym

Yeah we need to quit vilifying the wife. She left because she felt she had no other option. She lost her son to death and her husband to booze. 

My dad was an alcoholic and why my mom stayed with him I will never know. She put up with far more crap than any human being should.


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## happyhusband0005

HarryBosch said:


> He told me he drank himself into oblivion, never abused her physically. He drowned himself in booze and got help for it (How much help is speculative because he still drinks)
> 
> My opinion is if you can't quit the bottle, whats the use? I said as much. People look for change in my estimation, at least that far out you would think SOME change has occurred, but still hanging on to that bottle wouldn't be enough change in my opinion.
> 
> I'm still curious of the point of no return... at what point do you just walk away? No matter how much change has occurred?
> 
> I thought of my own circumstances.. how many years pass before two people see each other differently? Good or worse?


I've known two people who lost children both couples ended up divorced. There's really nothing that can shatter a person's soul more than losing a child and it seems like for a couple witnessing each others grief makes it worse. So like other people have said It probably depends on whether or not their marriage was in a good place before the loss. If it had been and the loss was the prime factor in the marriage falling apart maybe it is real. I can imagine it would take 4 years or more to get back to a more normal mental state after losing a child.

So it could be she sees him doing better, she has clearer eyes and wishes they were still together. Maybe after the divorce she has dated other people and is going back to plan A.


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