# What I feel I have learned by reading on these boards.



## sokillme

Type 1. The cheating spouse who never thought they would cheat. 


Over a year ago when I started reading on these boards I was really struggling to understand how this stuff happens. I kept reading because I wanted to understand, this is how I work. I have a need to understand maybe to control it in some way. I think I even made a post, about how do they live with themselves or something. So a question from another thread lead me to post this. I realized that I feel like I have a handle on this now so I thought I would post this in a new thread as to not thread jack and also because maybe it will help some others too. Maybe what I write would make some sense and also help folks who are suffering with the disconnect that affairs bring. In my mind that is one of he hardest parts. 

The post was here and the question was this - 



manfromlamancha said:


> Steve, did you ever get any explanation of the affair ? How could she find an old guy attractive ? Did he start it ? Who ended it ? Anything. I have asked this several times because it truly baffles me - even if she had an itch she needed to scratch, why with an old wrinkly? What did she say if anything about this ? I have never got an answer to this - why?


Here is my answer which provides my feeling of this type of cheating in a greater scope.

--

If you can't do it you will never understand it. I was troubled by this greatly when I started reading these threads but after over a year of reading I really feel like I have a strong handle on how this works now. There seems to be only a small number of types of affairs if you study this stuff. In the case of cheaters like Steve's wife the best I can tell from reading this stuff is they operate primary on how they feel, or how it makes them feel. Feeling is there primary motivation in relationships, unlike others who may say love, or history, or loyalty, or safety, honor, dignity, doing what's right, all the things that are much more healthy. Another factor that I think is a risk is their primary love language may be "words of affirmation". That is because this is really the easiest to fake and takes the least effort. That is not to say everyone whose primary love language is WOA is a risk. But these cheaters really don't have any concept of love, they think love is wanting someone desperately. However love is actually wanting to give yourself to someone, not get something from someone. This idea is so foreign to them they have no clue. Here is my take, not sure if you want it or not. 

These people never really had a good understanding of love probably because they didn't have good examples. They usually have low self-esteem and are broken, lots of times poor childhood as well. Lots of these women learned wrongly that their bodies were an avenue to get this attention that creates wanting, so they use it as a "currency". Men do the opposite they use complements, but the women's giving her body is the ultimate fulfillment of getting what is so desperately wanted. This is not always the case though and not what I am talking about here. What I am talking about here explains why sometimes this stuff can sneak up on a person. Some folks are out there looking to trade currency to get the feelings, but others aren't and are seemingly shocked that they cheated. This is why you hear folks say, I never thought I would be a person who cheated. The cheaters that are active are like drug addicts and are basically useless in relationships, but the cheaters that are passive maybe even more dangerous as they are really hard to spot as they don't even know themselves. 

Anyway they meet someone usually when they are young just start out like all of us and it feels good and gives them the feeling of wanting. At this point this is all normal stuff. They think I have this desperate desire to be with this person so I am in love! That's not love yet though it's the very beginning of the mating process, it is an avenue to grow into love though with a healthy person. Eventually they get married and expect to be happy ever after. All the normal events of courtship have continued that intensity of want. This reaffirms in their mind that they are in love. In the beginning they are married and their spouse makes them feel good and successful, they bask in the afterglow that is the adventure of a successful courtship. At that point everything is fine, but the longer you are in a relationship the more everything just gets normal. The problem is long term love doesn't have the intensity that lust does. The wanting is gone because you can't want what you already have. 

Then someone shows up and starts to give them attention and once again they feel good. In this case the person giving attention is the active kind of cheater, but it doesn't have to be, two people who are broken but passive like this can still create this dynamic that leads to cheating. Doesn't really matter who by the way as everyone has the potential to be attracted to tens of thousands of people, we are genetically built that way so we propagate the species. This attention and attraction creates in them a feeling of wanting again. (Again this can happen to anyone by the way even in good marriages. That is why some people mistakenly say everyone has the potential to cheat, I don't agree but it is true that everyone has the potential to meet someone who creates in them a desire to mate. Not everyone will act on it though.) Morals and character are what stops a person, they cut that off right there, they think, in another world that may have been fun but I am not that person. This is the best way of thinking and what in my mind is the most important quality you should be looking for in a mate. You want them to think it is more important for me to NOT be that person then to feel this wonderful intensity which is short lived anyway. Then a healthy person moves on and they are disciplined enough to do that. But in people like OP's wife she doesn't have disciple, she doesn't even think to have it. She follows her feelings as they are her primary motivation. Eventually attraction brings the intensity of wanting again and she thinks that that wanting is love. Then starts the questioning, why do I love this other guy? I must not be in love with my husband, my marriage must be bad, he doesn't make me feel this way anymore, he has failed me. The rewriting of the marriage begins. Whatever it is to justify cheating. Hell there are books that do just that, Ester Pearl anyone? Eventually the create enough justification in their mind to cheat. After all isn't love alwasy worth the risk and what we all want? Aren't we all entitled to be happy? Love is going to make me happy right? 

How I finally figured it out, and what showed me it's all about the wanting was the obvious tell is how quickly they can change on a dime. Once they are caught most of them suddenly blow off their affair partner like they were garbage (just like they did their spouse by the way, interesting) and now they profess undying love for their spouse again. It always seemed so weird to me. Then I got it, it's not love it's just that desperately wanting feeling again, this time it's intense again because there is a real danger of losing the spouse. Losing the spouse plays into their terrible lack of self esteem which also plays into this whole thing. You can read it in their posts. "I want him so much, I can't loose her, I love them SO MUCH!" When just weeks earlier they blew the spouse off like garbage. The thing that really solidified this though was a post on another board by a cheating wife who had been married for decades. It was about how she felt she loved her husband now like she never did before. She just loved him SO much NOW. It just seemed disingenuous at first, like how could she really even believe this after how she treated him. But this is not uncommon, it's very typical and strange. It didn't make sense but also what she wrote about didn't really resonate as love to me, but just a desire for him to stick around. That was the eureka moment, I got it. She doesn't really know what love is I thought. She thinks love is an intense desire to be with the guy. That is how this can happen. After that a lot of this stuff started to make sense. Shame that board won't let me post on there. 

This also explains why threatening divorce is a good tactic for these people because it creates the intensity of want again. Another example would be did you ever notice that a lot of these people hang on to folks who treat them like crap. Like their AP may cheat on them or be wishy-washy and that seems to just ramp up the intensity and desperation for them. Meanwhile the spouse could be a solid person who really loves and takes care of them. They have no desire for that kind of person. Lots of them have a past with abusive or unstable relationships. Partners who cheat on them repeatedly. It's because the uncertainty of the cheating AP creates in them that desperate want. Or more pointedly their insecurity makes them want that person to want them. Again want is love in their mind. A history of these kinds of relationships would now be a big red flag in my mind. Even more then it was before. They are broken. 

But that is the thing, it's not love. It never was love. If you are in a relationship with a person who thinks like this you will always be in danger. Eventually the intensity will wear off in even the greatest love stories. Even in great recovery the the conditions that existed before will be there again. Unless the cheater learns how their thinking is wrong and works to change that (not an easy task at all) they are always going to be a danger. I am not sure if most of these people are even deep enough to get that concept. It is a mistake however to think that just because you unfaithful partner is sorry and professes their love that they are a good choice. The first question you should ask yourself is do they even know what love is? I propose that the ones who cheated and then changed on a dime don't. They may never get it or they can spend years changing their thought patterns. I won't get into my theories on if it is a good choice even if they learn to love. Enough to say that I think even with genuinely changed partners there may still be an insurmountable amount of damage. And like I said above there are tens of thousands of others who you can have relationships with. A lot of this is about the person cheated on and if they will be happy with the results in the long run. 

That also doesn't take into account the type of person who can live two separate lives and have a long term history of lying to every primary relationship in their life. That add a whole other level of danger that goes beyond just not understanding what love it. But not everyone does that some cheat once and confess, and it makes sense that folks feel like those who do that are at least worth the risk to try again. But again I say you need to really did down and see if they even know what love is? what is their primary motivator? 

So that is my long winded treaties. Maybe it's helpful. It has been helpful for me as I started reading on here because I really wanted to get a handle on how people could do this. I think at least in affairs like this I now understand. Maybe too well.


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## StillSearching

Wow, that was long winded but insightful.
I know I get blasted a lot for this, but at 53 I've been around the block and studied human behavior as well.

I believe nature rules. We cannot change it.
Women bring sex into a marriage.
Men bring emotional love into a marriage.
Each is a primary need of the other. 
Women file for divorce more than men.
Women get over relationships much quicker than men.
Men are more emotional tied up in the marriage.
Men fall in love quicker.

Mental illness, addiction, and childhood sexual abuse are exceptions that warp natures effects.


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Wow, that was long winded but insightful.
> I know I get blasted a lot for this, but at 53 I've been around the block and studied human behavior as well.
> 
> I believe nature rules. We cannot change it.
> Women bring sex into a marriage.
> Men bring emotional love into a marriage.
> Each is a primary need of the other.
> Women file for divorce more than men.
> Women get over relationships much quicker than men.
> Men are more emotional tied up in the marriage.
> Men fall in love quicker.
> 
> Mental illness, addiction, and childhood sexual abuse are exceptions that warp natures effects.


Short winded but just as insightful. >


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## Adelais

Interesting hypotheses.

To sum it up, you believe that people who need WOA are vulnerable when the marriage gets "normal" and settles down, or when the marriage is struggling, and of course neither person is giving WOA, but they are ticked off and critical of each other. The weak spouse falls for predators who know how to give lots of WOA to a needy person.

You also said that people who think love is getting something rather than giving something are more vulnerable to having an A.

On the face of it, I'd have to agree with you on those two points. I'm sure there are other things going on, but these two are central.


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## sokillme

Araucaria said:


> Interesting hypotheses.
> 
> To sum it up, you believe that people who need WOA are vulnerable when the marriage gets "normal" and settles down, or when the marriage is struggling, and of course neither person is giving WOA, but they are ticked off and critical of each other. The weak spouse falls for predators who know how to give lots of WOA to a needy person.
> 
> You also said that people who think love is getting something rather than giving something are more vulnerable to having an A.
> 
> On the face of it, I'd have to agree with you on those two points. I'm sure there are other things going on, but these two are central.


It's not WOA that is the key it could be any number of love languages. I DO think that WOA is a particularly vulnerable one though. It's the feeling of wanting someone that is mistaken as falling in love. It's not understanding or more so valuing what love is.


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## SentHereForAReason

Holy **** Dude! 

80% of this is dead on with my STBXW/situation

1. She needs those words of affirmation, basically told me when I knew we were headed down a bad path after finding out about the affair that she NEEDS someone to tell her how beautiful she is everyday, every single day. I told her, well wouldn't you want someone that actually means it instead of someone that will just say stuff to get what she wants. Her response was that it shouldn't be too hard to have both, someone that says it and someone that means it too. My counselor's response to this statement was that as soon as she gets someone to say that every day of her life, it will move on to that not being enough and will need more.

2. STBXW craves attention like that and got/gets that a ton from customers, even ugly/old ones but the words of affirmation make her feel wanted and beautiful. My whole sh**tstorm started last year when she took a customer out to lunch that had propositioned her to get a hotel before a few years earlier. She took him out to lunch again and again he tried to talk her into it. She told me about it and I was mad that she put herself in that situation and told her that I had to look out for her safety and for the sake of our family and please don't do that again. This was a gateway to her seeing her AP on the job site a few weeks later and rekindling what they had 8 years earlier.

3. STBXW had a good upbringing, great parents, mom died of Cancer when she was 19 though. It wasn't a broken home but Dad was gone a lot on business, as the breadwinner and Mom was a stay at home Mom. Something happened when she was young though. She had some sort of breakdown when she was a child. My counselor thinks she was abused sexually at some point and she exhibits all of the signs of it in everything she says and does. My STBXW was sexually active very young, like 14/15 and often. Again, something all points to something there. We were extremely active when dating, like rabbits and then it settled down and stuff started to go wrong. She would cry sometimes after sex and say it was tears of happiness. She then started to kind of gag at the thought and appearance of the white stuff but it was never an issue before. Her moods would go 100MPH from one end to the other on the simplest of things. Counselor thinks she is a CSA victim, family thinks maybe Bi-Polar.

4. STBXW has a lot of self esteem issues and it's fueled and made better when she is getting the attention. Now since the affair, she is at her lowest weight ever, so much money spent on makeup, clothes, underwear, shoes, etc. She's very happy with herself now, at least for now. She feels like she is more mature, like she has grown up. Of course, the entire marriage history has been re-written including her thoughts about if she was living a lie the whole time and just putting on a facade. 

5. I thought I was going somewhere better with this post but all I can say is how spot on it is with my situation aside from a few things. When confronted with the affair, she didn't snap back for longer than a week and then started to grow distant. I learned months later, she created a secret email account about 2 weeks after D-Day, so maybe aside from a few days, there was never the intention to give up on the affair. And the upbringing, at least with parents, was good but something happened when she was young to create the monster that's inside of her and the demons she keeps pushing away and down the drain further.

Long story short, my counselor now tells me that STBXW doesn't really understand what love is, mature love anyway. My STBXW often said love is not a choice, it's something that you just know, a feeling that should come easy and that it cannot be rekindled once lost. I have also learned that she thinks he has been her soulmate all along and even though they had an 8 year hiatus she never stopped thinking about him. I would like to think that isn't the case and she is just romanticizing that but who knows, at this point it really doesn't matter. 

Still so surreal to me. I'm driving on plans, faking it til I make and the support of others just to push through because on state of mind with feelings, i would be up a creek with a paddle. I don't really have an issue with self confidence of self-worth. I know I can get someone who is nicer, prettier, younger, bustier, whatever this is what I told me dad and few other people this week. I know I can get all of that but I didn't want that. I wanted to finish my career with one team, have my jersey retired when it's all said and done in the same place it started, that's what I wanted and actually started getting happier each year thinking about. I was actually internally setting fire to the regrets and pains that I have had earlier in my life. The 2 years leading up to the affair, I was starting to come into a new stage in life. The things that drove me to dominate, was the fire inside me, a chip on my shoulder. I no longer needed that because I saw my eternal happiness was ending life with her, not things. That is why it hurt so much more when I realized it was over. I now have to find that fire again to drive me towards where I was but without her. Man this sucks but i know it will be better. My life has always been better and come out on the good end when I just put my head down and plow through and doing what's right and what's best.


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## Graywolf2

I think you’re spot on Sokillme. Very insightful post and what you describe is the most common dynamic. 

Like you I have been reading these boards and found patterns. The division I found is how they handle guilt. In the dynamic you describe they vilify their spouse to justify and rationalize the affair. The WS finds small things and blows them up out of proportion. The BS will often say: “I couldn’t do anything right.” Sometimes this is the first clue the BS picks up that something is going on. Guilt also provides a motivation to “love“ their AP. If they love their AP then their affair isn’t cheap and sorted. Love makes it pure.

What I have discovered is a less common group where there is little or no guilt. They think their spouse is just fine and have every intention and desire to grow old with them. Their spouse may be their best friend and they can even love them like a brother or father.

They don’t vilify their spouse because there is no need to. They don’t feel guilty. The key is that they don’t see the sex act as a big deal. They had no intention of ever leaving their spouse so they were faithful in the way that mattered most to them. Therefore no guilt.

They treat their spouse well or even better than they otherwise would to consciously or unconsciously compensate their spouse for the affair.

If caught they feel terrible about hurting their spouse but not for the sex. They turn on a dime and will walk over hot coals to save their marriage and family.

If all boils down to the sex meant nothing and the affair was worth it and long at it was free (i.e. no one knew about it). Once caught the cost of the affair was way out of proportion to the fun they had.

Their marriage was basically good and their BS loved them and was dependable. This makes them expect that the affair will blow over without divorce. In a way the good behavior of the BS made the WS more secure when having an affair. They feel that they are working with a net. The BS is so good that they will never break up the family.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

StillSearching said:


> Wow, that was long winded but insightful.
> I know I get blasted a lot for this, but at 53 I've been around the block and studied human behavior as well.
> 
> I believe nature rules. We cannot change it.
> Women bring sex into a marriage.
> Men bring emotional love into a marriage.
> Each is a primary need of the other.
> Women file for divorce more than men.
> Women get over relationships much quicker than men.
> Men are more emotional tied up in the marriage.
> Men fall in love quicker.
> 
> Mental illness, addiction, and childhood sexual abuse are exceptions that warp natures effects.


I don't think much of any of that is true more than half the time, except for the divorcing more than men. Don't fool yourself, a sexually unsatisfied woman will leave/cheat in a second and emotional men aren't very desired by women. 

I'd also agree that women do get over relationships quicker than men. Statistics show a man is 4x more likely to commit suicide after divorce. The majority that don't go to that extreme move on quite well and fairly quickly barring financial setbacks.

My guess is women fall in love quicker than men in most cases.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

I do agree WOA are the most common reasons women seem to cheat. Afterall, in any normal relationship the attention tends to dwindle from a husband once marriage is complicated with finances, kids and work pressure. There is also a tendency to get comfortable in a marriage and the passion dies. Then some guy who says all the right things comes along and its over.

But, I also believe many of these women downplay the sex if they are interested in reconciliation. It wasn't that good or he was smaller are the only correct answers once discovered and husband will never know the truth. But he will always wonder, because how could you possibly let an affair go on for months or years, if it wasn't good? Why would she deny her husband sex, yet ride AP like a mechanical bull? It may not be any better sex than with their spouse if it were just another relationship, but the excitement added from the secrecy and doing something taboo typically makes it better. I've heard many stories of women who couldn't ever come from PIV sex, but have multiple orgasms with AP. Maybe AP had a magical ****, though I suspect it would have been run of the mill sex if there wasn't that added excitement.

So, is it all about sex? No. But, all affairs involve sex for a reason. Does some AP's fall in love? Yes, but most of the time, they just love the feeling. Once they are found out, the affair typically withers up and dies regardless of R or D, because its lost its allure.


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## I shouldnthave

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> So, is it all about sex? No. But, all affairs involve sex for a reason. Does some AP's fall in love? Yes, but most of the time, they just love the feeling. Once they are found out, the affair typically withers up and dies regardless of R or D, because its lost its allure.


I am going to keep this short (its a lot to wade into!). I was one of those "I NEVER thought I would cheat!" people.... really, before I *was*, I had never been tempted, it had never crossed my mind. Hell, even when my husband cheated and his counselor advised him of the risks of "revenge affairs" I was completely insulted by this notion.

But 5 years later, I found myself doing something I never thought I would, I had a physical affair. 

I never loved him(AP), heck, I never really cared about him, but *I loved the way he made me feel about myself*. I didn't care about fulfilling his needs - it was all about me, a crazy, super selfish time in my life. 

I have a feeling this is common in many cheating scenarios.


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## Truthseeker1

I shouldnthave said:


> I am going to keep this short (its a lot to wade into!). I was one of those "I NEVER thought I would cheat!" people.... really, before I *was*, I had never been tempted, it had never crossed my mind. Hell, even when my husband cheated and his counselor advised him of the risks of "revenge affairs" I was completely insulted by this notion.
> 
> But 5 years later, I found myself doing something I never thought I would, I had a physical affair.
> 
> I never loved him(AP), heck, I never really cared about him, but *I loved the way he made me feel about myself*. I didn't care about fulfilling his needs - it was all about me, a crazy, super selfish time in my life.
> 
> I have a feeling this is common in many cheating scenarios.


Do you think your husband A lowered you guard? And in a way it was revenge since we are all tempted but when a BS is tempted they might say well my WS did it so wy not. I'm just curious. I always wonder how a BS deals with their spouses A years out and does it make them more vulnerable to cheat since they cant say "how could I my WS would never do that to me" - well they did do it and in some cases for years.


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## sokillme

Graywolf2 said:


> I think you’re spot on Sokillme. Very insightful post and what you describe is the most common dynamic.
> 
> Like you I have been reading these boards and found patterns. The division I found is how they handle guilt. In the dynamic you describe they vilify their spouse to justify and rationalize the affair. The WS finds small things and blows them up out of proportion. The BS will often say: “I couldn’t do anything right.” Sometimes this is the first clue the BS picks up that something is going on. Guilt also provides a motivation to “love“ their AP. If they love their AP then their affair isn’t cheap and sorted. Love makes it pure.
> 
> What I have discovered is a less common group where there is little or no guilt. They think their spouse is just fine and have every intention and desire to grow old with them. Their spouse may be their best friend and they can even love them like a brother or father.
> 
> They don’t vilify their spouse because there is no need to. They don’t feel guilty. The key is that they don’t see the sex act as a big deal. They had no intention of ever leaving their spouse so they were faithful in the way that mattered most to them. Therefore no guilt.
> 
> They treat their spouse well or even better than they otherwise would to consciously or unconsciously compensate their spouse for the affair.
> 
> If caught they feel terrible about hurting their spouse but not for the sex. They turn on a dime and will walk over hot coals to save their marriage and family.
> 
> If all boils down to the sex meant nothing and the affair was worth it and long at it was free (i.e. no one knew about it). Once caught the cost of the affair was way out of proportion to the fun they had.
> 
> Their marriage was basically good and their BS loved them and was dependable. This makes them expect that the affair will blow over without divorce. In a way the good behavior of the BS made the WS more secure when having an affair. They feel that they are working with a net. The BS is so good that they will never break up the family.


This second affair kind will probably be another post. But you are right they are the one who says - "It was only sex". or "You were never supposed to find out." They are dangerous too. I always think and interesting tell for these folks though is if you say, "well if the sex meant nothing then I want to have sex for a while with someone else the same amount of times and we can call it even." I suspect a lot of them will balk at that idea.


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## sokillme

I shouldnthave said:


> I am going to keep this short (its a lot to wade into!). I was one of those "I NEVER thought I would cheat!" people.... really, before I *was*, I had never been tempted, it had never crossed my mind. Hell, even when my husband cheated and his counselor advised him of the risks of "revenge affairs" I was completely insulted by this notion.
> 
> But 5 years later, I found myself doing something I never thought I would, I had a physical affair.
> 
> I never loved him(AP), heck, I never really cared about him, but *I loved the way he made me feel about myself*. I didn't care about fulfilling his needs - it was all about me, a crazy, super selfish time in my life.
> 
> I have a feeling this is common in many cheating scenarios.


This is still different. Cheating that is done after the marriage vows have been broken in my mind isn't really even cheating. I personally think the marriage ends as soon as the vows are broken like any other contract. Not that I would advise it. I would advise divorce and maybe remarry again depending. 

Besides that I am really talking about one kind of affair. In your case it sounds like you knew what you were doing but you had lost value in your relationship cause you husband cheated. That makes sense in a more logical way then the other.


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## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think much of any of that is true more than half the time, except for the divorcing more than men. Don't fool yourself, a sexually unsatisfied woman will leave/cheat in a second and emotional men aren't very desired by women.


I think this is getting more an more true each day, but I still think there is still some truth to the idea that Men cheat for sex and women cheat for emotion. I think when we say emotion people mistake that for emotional men, or emotional weak men. That is not what at least I am talking about, I am talking about emotionally intelligent men. The kind of man who can tell when she is down right away. Who she doesn't have to tell him he knows why and how to say stuff to cheer her up. When it's done with a more nefarious motive they can tell what she is insecure about and give her WOA to make her feel great. This kind of guy who is emotionally smart knows how to uses his smarts to find vulnerable women. He may find one whose husband is a louse or who is just too caught up in his own thing to bother, and that makes her an easy target. 

Lots of men have not been raised and trained and taught with this sexist idea that men are just not capable of emotional intelligence but that is not the case. They just haven't learn. However guys who do know how to do this also know how to be romantic and the devious ones know how to subtly play on her insecurities to get her to fall. By the way the good ones also can tell her insecurities but they build them up because they love them and that is their wives. Now these guys have a better shot too if they are attractive and sexually appealing as well that is true too. But how often do you here BH say, the dude is old, or the dude is ugly, I just don't get it. It's because it was not about physical attraction it was about an emotional one. 

I think of course there are women who just want to hook up and love sex, but I just don't think even today that is the majority. They may love sex but they are not as motivated as men, in general. If all the guy was offering was sex they would pass, but a guy who hits that emotional button and then offers sex, to the right kind of women, look out. That is NOT a women you marry though.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> This is still different. Cheating that is done after the marriage vows have been broken in my mind isn't really even cheating. I personally think the marriage ends as soon as the vows are broken like any other contract. Not that I would advise it. I would advise divorce and maybe remarry again depending.


I almost think if you don't divorce, you have to madhat it a little. Otherwise, there is no consequences and there will always be an imbalance that will constantly eat away at the bond. I don't think divorcing and remarrying really does all that much either, unless you have a hiatus after divorce where you played the field quite a bit, but the whole remarrying seems very rare especially once you detach.


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## sokillme

stillfightingforus said:


> Holy **** Dude!
> 
> 80% of this is dead on with my STBXW/situation
> 
> 1. She needs those words of affirmation, basically told me when I knew we were headed down a bad path after finding out about the affair that she NEEDS someone to tell her how beautiful she is everyday, every single day. I told her, well wouldn't you want someone that actually means it instead of someone that will just say stuff to get what she wants. Her response was that it shouldn't be too hard to have both, someone that says it and someone that means it too. My counselor's response to this statement was that as soon as she gets someone to say that every day of her life, it will move on to that not being enough and will need more.
> 
> 2. STBXW craves attention like that and got/gets that a ton from customers, even ugly/old ones but the words of affirmation make her feel wanted and beautiful. My whole sh**tstorm started last year when she took a customer out to lunch that had propositioned her to get a hotel before a few years earlier. She took him out to lunch again and again he tried to talk her into it. She told me about it and I was mad that she put herself in that situation and told her that I had to look out for her safety and for the sake of our family and please don't do that again. This was a gateway to her seeing her AP on the job site a few weeks later and rekindling what they had 8 years earlier.
> 
> 3. STBXW had a good upbringing, great parents, mom died of Cancer when she was 19 though. It wasn't a broken home but Dad was gone a lot on business, as the breadwinner and Mom was a stay at home Mom. Something happened when she was young though. She had some sort of breakdown when she was a child. My counselor thinks she was abused sexually at some point and she exhibits all of the signs of it in everything she says and does. My STBXW was sexually active very young, like 14/15 and often. Again, something all points to something there. We were extremely active when dating, like rabbits and then it settled down and stuff started to go wrong. She would cry sometimes after sex and say it was tears of happiness. She then started to kind of gag at the thought and appearance of the white stuff but it was never an issue before. Her moods would go 100MPH from one end to the other on the simplest of things. Counselor thinks she is a CSA victim, family thinks maybe Bi-Polar.
> 
> 4. STBXW has a lot of self esteem issues and it's fueled and made better when she is getting the attention. Now since the affair, she is at her lowest weight ever, so much money spent on makeup, clothes, underwear, shoes, etc. She's very happy with herself now, at least for now. She feels like she is more mature, like she has grown up. Of course, the entire marriage history has been re-written including her thoughts about if she was living a lie the whole time and just putting on a facade.
> 
> 5. I thought I was going somewhere better with this post but all I can say is how spot on it is with my situation aside from a few things. When confronted with the affair, she didn't snap back for longer than a week and then started to grow distant. I learned months later, she created a secret email account about 2 weeks after D-Day, so maybe aside from a few days, there was never the intention to give up on the affair. And the upbringing, at least with parents, was good but something happened when she was young to create the monster that's inside of her and the demons she keeps pushing away and down the drain further.
> 
> Long story short, my counselor now tells me that STBXW doesn't really understand what love is, mature love anyway. My STBXW often said love is not a choice, it's something that you just know, a feeling that should come easy and that it cannot be rekindled once lost. I have also learned that she thinks he has been her soulmate all along and even though they had an 8 year hiatus she never stopped thinking about him. I would like to think that isn't the case and she is just romanticizing that but who knows, at this point it really doesn't matter.
> 
> Still so surreal to me. I'm driving on plans, faking it til I make and the support of others just to push through because on state of mind with feelings, i would be up a creek with a paddle. I don't really have an issue with self confidence of self-worth. I know I can get someone who is nicer, prettier, younger, bustier, whatever this is what I told me dad and few other people this week. I know I can get all of that but I didn't want that. I wanted to finish my career with one team, have my jersey retired when it's all said and done in the same place it started, that's what I wanted and actually started getting happier each year thinking about. I was actually internally setting fire to the regrets and pains that I have had earlier in my life. The 2 years leading up to the affair, I was starting to come into a new stage in life. The things that drove me to dominate, was the fire inside me, a chip on my shoulder. I no longer needed that because I saw my eternal happiness was ending life with her, not things. That is why it hurt so much more when I realized it was over. I now have to find that fire again to drive me towards where I was but without her. Man this sucks but i know it will be better. My life has always been better and come out on the good end when I just put my head down and plow through and doing what's right and what's best.


This is why you should have listened to me and others when we were posting in your thread. You wife has a kind of arrested development and a lot of us could see it. I am still going to respond to you post from yesterday by the way. Haven't gotten around to it.


----------



## hoblob

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I almost think if you don't divorce, you have to madhat it a little. Otherwise, there is no consequences and there will always be an imbalance that will constantly eat away at the bond. I don't think divorcing and remarrying really does all that much either, unless you have a hiatus after divorce where you played the field quite a bit, but that seems rare.


I madhattered and it felt great. Boosted my confidence, felt vindicated. We weren’t married though and it was less than a month after finding out. We didn’t have a great relationship afterwards but as you say it restores some of the status quo. Won’t ever fully restore it though.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I almost think if you don't divorce, you have to madhat it a little. Otherwise, there is no consequences and there will always be an imbalance that will constantly eat away at the bond. I don't think divorcing and remarrying really does all that much either, unless you have a hiatus after divorce where you played the field quite a bit, but that seems rare.


I see it like this when you divorce you date, but you can date your ex too. But you damn sure date others as well. The hope is for those who are pining away for bad ex's will have enough success that they will realize that their ex is really not the catch they thought and move on without regret. So many times you see the BS desperate to keep the WS like they are solid gold, lots of times because they just don't know any better. Sometimes because they are insecure but also a lot of times because the married very young. Adult dating when you have more power over your own life is very different then dating while still in school or when still trying to establish ones self. So I think one of the benefits is see what else is out there. 

Next there is the idea the the cheater has some consequences and has to compete, it's a good motivator to change but it also shows the cheater the my spouse has value an is to be cherished as others want them as well. Again something that some people who get married young don't get. They are way too comfortable because a lot of times they have just transferred their parents role to their spouse. They think just like their parents their spouse will always love them. Consequences and real life competition can change some of that. 

Now most probably won't get back together which in my mind is a positive anyway as the BS can do better. But if finally if the WS does get it and does change and is able to win the BS back, then the power level has evened out again, because the BS gets to make a choice, NOT out of necessity but out of a position of power. They actively choose to be with the person again. Not passively resign to stay with someone who discarded them like garbage. Much better.

But hell yeah all of that is predicated on putting yourself out there and dating again. With the real intent of testing the waters. That would be the only way I would think it's a good thing. Plus if you divorce no one can say you cheated so you keep your honor as well. To someone like me honor is more important the then even being married.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

hoblob said:


> I madhattered and it felt great. Boosted my confidence, felt vindicated. We weren’t married though and it was less than a month after finding out. We didn’t have a great relationship afterwards but as you say it restores some of the status quo. Won’t ever fully restore it though.



Nope, and that's the main problem with madhatting. I think it helps with the imbalance but it never fully restores it. The initial cheating is always way worse, because it immediately takes the marriage from something special to something blah. In madhatting, you are only cheating because they cheated. Its not the same....you aren't destroying that specialness because it has already been destroyed. The marriage has already been severed.

In the end, I think divorce is really the only way to get over the betrayal, otherwise it going to always feel like they got the upper hand. But when people consider madhatting, I always tell them to be totally transparent about it with your spouse. No secrecy, no lying. Tell them you are dating now and not to wait up for them. If they don't like it, they know where the door is. Might even, if you have some extra funds, go so far as to rent an apartment for a bit for your hookup pad. Bring the dread game. Then after you feel the imbalance has somewhat tilted, you can decide to reconcile.

But I'm getting way off topic.


----------



## Graywolf2

sokillme said:


> This second affair kind will probably be another post. But you are right they are the one who says - "It was only sex". or "You were never supposed to find out." They are dangerous too. I always think and interesting tell for these folks though is if you say, "well if the sex meant nothing then I want to have sex for a while with someone else the same amount of times and we can call it even." *I suspect a lot of them will balk at that idea.*


You are correct. The difference is the WS was in control and 100% sure that they would never leave the marriage. The marriage was never in jeopardy so that made it OK. They're not 100% sure that their BS will not leave them once they have sex with someone else. That might jeopardize the marriage so it's a bad idea.


----------



## Townes

I think the desire for intensity is very accurate, but I think this might rely too much on the old notion that women are sexually neutral until lured away by a smooth talking man. That has not been my experience in the past 20 years. Women are often the initiators and aggressors in affairs. Sometimes it's for emotional intensity, but sometimes it's purely carnal just like a man. I think men will continue to be baffled by women cheating until they accept this.


----------



## I shouldnthave

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think your husband A lowered you guard? And in a way it was revenge since we are all tempted but when a BS is tempted they might say well my WS did it so wy not. I'm just curious. I always wonder how a BS deals with their spouses A years out and does it make them more vulnerable to cheat since they cant say "how could I my WS would never do that to me" - well they did do it and in some cases for years.


I don't feel like my guard was ever really up I guess. It was like other men were invisible.

But yes, if you are wondering what went through my head - I thought about it, I weighed the consequences. And basically said to myself "If I was willing to forgive what he did, he should forgive me". And I was fairly certain that would be the case - and it was. 

Its like I felt like I had a license to, not permission per se, but yeah, I figured I could get away with it. I never intentionally wanted to hurt him. Like the suggestion above, about rubbing it in their face, and trying to make the cheating spouse feel terrible - I never wanted that, I would never been able to do something like that. Thinking he would never find out made it easy. When I DID have to face the pain I caused - one of the worse feelings I have ever experienced, and in many ways worse than the pain I felt when he cheated.

Now - Hahaha hadn't heard that term before in this context, but yeah, I mad hattered.... I went off the deep end honestly. 

So, on one hand his cheating was "worse" because it was first, and it was emotionally involved (us women don't like that), but it was very short lived. Mine? My cheating was worse as it went on longer, and was much more physically involved. 

I am glad we didn't split up, or divorce or any of that. I am pretty thrilled with the place we are today. It works for us, we are non traditionalist in some ways, and do not have kids etc, or relationship isn't completely typical. 

Tearing everything down like that - we took our relationship to the studs. Got way more real, vulnerable, and honest with each other, more than we ever had been, because well, at that point, what did we have to lose? It was no holds barred. And it gave us an opportunity to build it back up to something we both really feel lucky to have.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nope, and that's the main problem with madhatting. I think it helps with the imbalance but it never fully restores it. The initial cheating is always way worse, because it immediately takes the marriage from something special to something blah. In madhatting, you are only cheating because they cheated. Its not the same....you aren't destroying that specialness because it has already been destroyed. The marriage has already been severed.
> 
> In the end, I think divorce is really the only way to get over the betrayal, otherwise it going to always feel like they got the upper hand. But when people consider madhatting, I always tell them to be totally transparent about it with your spouse. No secrecy, no lying. Tell them you are dating now and not to wait up for them. If they don't like it, they know where the door is. Might even, if you have some extra funds, go so far as to rent an apartment for a bit for your hookup pad. Bring the dread game. Then after you feel the imbalance has somewhat tilted, you can decide to reconcile.
> 
> But I'm getting way off topic.


Even then it's not just the imbalance which is part of it, but who you now know you are with. Staying is like settling at least for me. I just couldn't be married to someone like that, like what is the value. Maybe a drunken one night stand, but I probably would divorce and then give her a second chance.


----------



## sokillme

Townes said:


> I think the desire for intensity is very accurate, but I think this might rely too much on the old notion that women are sexually neutral until lured away by a smooth talking man. That has not been my experience in the past 20 years. Women are often the initiators and aggressors in affairs. Sometimes it's for emotional intensity, but sometimes it's purely carnal just like a man. I think men will continue to be baffled by women cheating until they accept this.


This is just one type of cheater though. I do think their are women an of course men like you say too. Lots of them. But in this case I am talking about one particular kind.

It's true though a lot of man don't think or maybe don't like to think women are that way, as an example by the way they always seem to think their cheating wives were victims of a player. That seems to be easier then to think that their wives were the pursuer. 

What I am talking about is the kind of subset who don't have any idea what the difference between love and want is. Those are not victim either in my book. Relationships always take two even cheating ones. It's not rape.


----------



## sokillme

I shouldnthave said:


> I don't feel like my guard was ever really up I guess. It was like other men were invisible.
> 
> But yes, if you are wondering what went through my head - I thought about it, I weighed the consequences. And basically said to myself "If I was willing to forgive what he did, he should forgive me". And I was fairly certain that would be the case - and it was.
> 
> Its like I felt like I had a license to, not permission per se, but yeah, I figured I could get away with it. I never intentionally wanted to hurt him. Like the suggestion above, about rubbing it in their face, and trying to make the cheating spouse feel terrible - I never wanted that, I would never been able to do something like that. Thinking he would never find out made it easy. When I DID have to face the pain I caused - one of the worse feelings I have ever experienced, and in many ways worse than the pain I felt when he cheated.
> 
> Now - Hahaha hadn't heard that term before in this context, but yeah, I mad hattered.... I went off the deep end honestly.
> 
> So, on one hand his cheating was "worse" because it was first, and it was emotionally involved (us women don't like that), but it was very short lived. Mine? My cheating was worse as it went on longer, and was much more physically involved.
> 
> I am glad we didn't split up, or divorce or any of that. I am pretty thrilled with the place we are today. It works for us, we are non traditionalist in some ways, and do not have kids etc, or relationship isn't completely typical.
> 
> Tearing everything down like that - we took our relationship to the studs. Got way more real, vulnerable, and honest with each other, more than we ever had been, because well, at that point, what did we have to lose? It was no holds barred. And it gave us an opportunity to build it back up to something we both really feel lucky to have.


When I here these types of stories I am always glad that you stayed together too. >


----------



## Townes

sokillme said:


> This is just one type of cheater though. I do think their are women an of course men like you say too. Lots of them. But in this case I am talking about one particular kind.
> 
> It's true though a lot of man don't think or maybe don't like to think women are that way, as an example by the way they always seem to think their cheating wives were victims of a player. That seems to be easier then to think that their wives were the pursuer.
> 
> What I am talking about is the kind of subset who don't have any idea what the difference between love and want is. Those are not victim either in my book. Relationships always take two even cheating ones. It's not rape.


Makes sense. I should've read the nuance of your post more carefully. Great insights.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> Even then it's not just the imbalance which is part of it, but who you now know you are with. Staying is like settling at least for me. I just couldn't be married to someone like that, like what is the value. Maybe a drunken one night stand, but I probably would divorce and then give her a second chance.


Absolutely and I agree. But many Married Men operate from a scarcity mindset. No one will ever love me!! I must win her back!!! They start thinking back to their awkward teenage years and think that is the future if they don't fix this. They settle. They end up playing pick me and nicing her back and wife is so turned off by this display, they lose respect for them and either start back up the affair or just leaves them (if they are lucky). Either way, you have no control in this situation. The whole point is to get back control and maybe after a while getting your self esteem back and realizing you don't have to settle, you end up seeing her for what she is, just another tinder date.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Absolutely and I agree. But many Married Men operate from a scarcity mindset. No one will ever love me!! I must win her back!!! They start thinking back to their awkward teenage years and think that is the future if they don't fix this. They settle. They end up playing pick me and nicing her back and wife is so turned off by this display, they lose respect for them and either start back up the affair or just leaves them (if they are lucky). Either way, you have no control in this situation. The whole point is to get back control and maybe after a while getting your self esteem back and realizing you don't have to settle, you end up seeing her for what she is, just another tinder date.


Women do the same. Like I always say. The whole thing is people working SO hard for SO little. 

I think the real key is to stop romanticizing your cheating spouse and marriage for that matter. You could be married to tens of thousands of people assuming you are somewhat attractive and don't set unreasonable standards. If someone turns out to be a lemon it's better just to call your losses and move on. Things in life end, all marriages end at some point because eventually one spouse is going to die. Cheating just ends them quicker. Better to move on quickly and find a better choice. The cheater is the person who has lesser value in the equation anyway because they failed their vows.


----------



## Adelais

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I do agree WOA are the most common reasons *women* seem to cheat. Afterall, in any normal relationship the attention tends to dwindle from a husband once marriage is complicated with finances, kids and work pressure. There is also a tendency to get comfortable in a marriage and the passion dies. Then some *guy* who says all the right things comes along and its over.


There are also men who have such low self esteems that they will throw away a marriage for someone who "says all the right things." That is what my husband told me hooked him.


----------



## Adelais

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nope, and that's the main problem with madhatting. I think it helps with the imbalance but it never fully restores it. The initial cheating is always way worse, because it immediately takes the marriage from something special to something blah. In madhatting, you are only cheating because they cheated. Its not the same....you aren't destroying that specialness because it has already been destroyed. The marriage has already been severed.
> 
> In the end, I think divorce is really the only way to get over the betrayal, otherwise it going to always feel like they got the upper hand. But when people consider madhatting, I always tell them to be totally transparent about it with your spouse. No secrecy, no lying. Tell them you are dating now and not to wait up for them. If they don't like it, they know where the door is. Might even, if you have some extra funds, go so far as to rent an apartment for a bit for your hookup pad. Bring the dread game. Then after you feel the imbalance has somewhat tilted, you can decide to reconcile.
> 
> But I'm getting way off topic.


Nope. Nothing you say will convince me that cheating is ever an answer. 

Divorce first, then date, if that is what a person wants to do.

You will find very few people here who will support your idea it is alright to cheat as along as your tell your WS ahead of time.


----------



## Adelais

hoblob said:


> I madhattered and it felt great. Boosted my confidence, felt vindicated. We weren’t married though and it was less than a month after finding out. We didn’t have a great relationship afterwards but as you say it *restores some of the status quo. Won’t ever fully restore it though*.


So now you are two cheaters married to each other. 

Who would think that being the 2nd to cheat would *restore* a marriage that has been damaged or nullified by adultery?

Few on this board will go along with that fallacy.


----------



## sokillme

Araucaria said:


> So now you are two cheaters married to each other.
> 
> Who would think that being the 2nd to cheat would *restore* a marriage that has been damaged or nullified by adultery?
> 
> Few on this board will go along with that fallacy.


Two cheaters married to EACH OTHER, is always a better outcome then just one cheater, or not being married at all. It's safer for the rest of us.


----------



## Truthseeker1

sokillme said:


> This is still different. Cheating that is done after the marriage vows have been broken in my mind isn't really even cheating. I personally think the marriage ends as soon as the vows are broken like any other contract. Not that I would advise it. I would advise divorce and maybe remarry again depending.
> 
> Besides that I am really talking about one kind of affair. In your case it sounds like you knew what you were doing but you had lost value in your relationship cause you husband cheated. That makes sense in a more logical way then the other.


 RAs are not quite the same as the original A IMO. And there are some who even say an RA is worse than the orignal affair - not at all. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I almost think if you don't divorce, you have to madhat it a little. Otherwise, there is no consequences and there will always be an imbalance that will constantly eat away at the bond. I don't think divorcing and remarrying really does all that much either, unless you have a hiatus after divorce where you played the field quite a bit, but the whole remarrying seems very rare especially once you detach.


Agree with this is many cases. In some cases the WS is so selfish or checked out that the only option is to D and never look back. I have zero sympathy for a cheater who gets betrayed - they deserve it and have earned their misery. They can talk and talk about their empathy and "getting it" but until they are ont he receiving end they never really get it. And any cheater who would not offer the same grace they are asking for is not a good candidate for R now are they? In many cases the cheater gets to cheat and keep their marriage with no real consequences. I'm not buying that they "punish themselves" and that is worse than any other punishment. My answer to that is you did a pretty good job at punishing your BS and you want me to believe you "feeling bad" is worse than what you inflicted on them. Consider me a skeptic on that one.


----------



## Truthseeker1

hoblob said:


> I madhattered and it felt great. Boosted my confidence, felt vindicated. We weren’t married though and it was less than a month after finding out. We didn’t have a great relationship afterwards but as you say it restores some of the status quo. Won’t ever fully restore it though.


Did you feel any guilt? I've read by some BS and some WSs who claim a BS who becomes a madhatter actually feels worse than their WS. I'm not buying this for all people or ene most people. For some people perhaps they do feel worse but I find it hard ot believe that most BSs do. What do you think?


----------



## Truthseeker1

I shouldnthave said:


> I don't feel like my guard was ever really up I guess. It was like other men were invisible.
> 
> *But yes, if you are wondering what went through my head - I thought about it, I weighed the consequences. And basically said to myself "If I was willing to forgive what he did, he should forgive me". And I was fairly certain that would be the case - and it was. *
> 
> *Its like I felt like I had a license to, not permission per se, but yeah, I figured I could get away with it. *I never intentionally wanted to hurt him. Like the suggestion above, about rubbing it in their face, and trying to make the cheating spouse feel terrible - I never wanted that, I would never been able to do something like that. Thinking he would never find out made it easy. When I DID have to face the pain I caused - one of the worse feelings I have ever experienced, and in many ways worse than the pain I felt when he cheated.
> 
> Now - Hahaha hadn't heard that term before in this context, but yeah, I mad hattered.... I went off the deep end honestly.
> 
> So, on one hand his cheating was "worse" because it was first, and it was emotionally involved (us women don't like that), but it was very short lived. Mine? My cheating was worse as it went on longer, and was much more physically involved.
> 
> I am glad we didn't split up, or divorce or any of that. I am pretty thrilled with the place we are today. It works for us, we are non traditionalist in some ways, and do not have kids etc, or relationship isn't completely typical.
> 
> Tearing everything down like that - we took our relationship to the studs. Got way more real, vulnerable, and honest with each other, more than we ever had been, because well, at that point, what did we have to lose? It was no holds barred. And it gave us an opportunity to build it back up to something we both really feel lucky to have.


Thank you for your honest answer. I always thought that a BS who has an RA feels what you have described. License not permission is a good way to put it. Whatever guard rails might have been there earlier were not destroyed by the WS. Do you feel being a madhatter helped you to R since there was a "balance"
again in the relationship? Do you feel your WH finally got what he had done by being on the receiving end of an affair? In many cases it seems the WS who gets to keep their marriage essentially got away with their A without any real consequences. Many WSs experss empahty and claim they "get it" but do they really unless they are betrayed?


----------



## Truthseeker1

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nope, and that's the main problem with madhatting. I think it helps with the imbalance but it never fully restores it. The initial cheating is always way worse, because it immediately takes the marriage from something special to something blah. In madhatting, you are only cheating because they cheated. Its not the same....you aren't destroying that specialness because it has already been destroyed. The marriage has already been severed.
> 
> .


But remember the specialness is still there for them in a way since they have a spouse who hasnt cheated. In some cases they couple were virgins when they married and the WS still knows their BS is the only one they have ever been with. I dont know how BSs live with that last scenario at all.


----------



## Diana7

StillSearching said:


> Wow, that was long winded but insightful.
> I know I get blasted a lot for this, but at 53 I've been around the block and studied human behavior as well.
> 
> I believe nature rules. We cannot change it.
> Women bring sex into a marriage.
> Men bring emotional love into a marriage.
> Each is a primary need of the other.
> Women file for divorce more than men.
> Women get over relationships much quicker than men.
> Men are more emotional tied up in the marriage.
> Men fall in love quicker.
> 
> Mental illness, addiction, and childhood sexual abuse are exceptions that warp natures effects.


In my experience its men who get over relationships much quicker. I can think of 4 men who I know that either had wives who died or they were divorced from, and all were in a serious relationship within weeks or a few months and were married the year after they lost their wives. It was 4 years before I felt in anyway ready for a new relationship and 6 years before I met my now husband. Many women I know who are divorced are still alone many years later. 

I believe that women need love and men need respect. Those are the primary needs.


----------



## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> This is still different. Cheating that is done after the marriage vows have been broken in my mind isn't really even cheating. I personally think the marriage ends as soon as the vows are broken like any other contract. Not that I would advise it. I would advise divorce and maybe remarry again depending.
> 
> Besides that I am really talking about one kind of affair. In your case it sounds like you knew what you were doing but you had lost value in your relationship cause you husband cheated. That makes sense in a more logical way then the other.


She didn't RA. 5 years later, she was unfaithful for the same reasons everyone else is.

I'm for divorce myself. I wouldn't cheat, but if I did and she wanted to have an RA, I would just divorce so she could have her freedom without lowering herself.

I would like to think I would not have a RA and just divorce but emotionally devastated people don't always make good decisions.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Truthseeker1 said:


> hoblob said:
> 
> 
> 
> I madhattered and it felt great. Boosted my confidence, felt vindicated. We weren’t married though and it was less than a month after finding out. We didn’t have a great relationship afterwards but as you say it restores some of the status quo. Won’t ever fully restore it though.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you feel any guilt? I've read by some BS and some WSs who claim a BS who becomes a madhatter actually feels worse than their WS. I'm not buying this for all people or ene most people. For some people perhaps they do feel worse but I find it hard ot believe that most BSs do. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I had an RA to a week or two after I found out. Problem for me was, when they are remorseless, it isn't revenge. I knew it probably wasn't gonna make me feel better, but it sure as hell wasn't gonna make me feel worse. I sure as hell didn't feel any guilt. But there was really nothing to save at that point. It took me awhile to get my head around to the idea of divorce, it was so foreign to me.


----------



## PreRaph

Diana7 said:


> In my experience its men who get over relationships much quicker. I can think of 4 men who I know that either had wives who died or they were divorced from, and all were in a serious relationship within weeks or a few months and were married the year after they lost their wives. It was 4 years before I felt in anyway ready for a new relationship and 6 years before I met my now husband. Many women I know who are divorced are still alone many years later.
> 
> I believe that women need love and men need respect. Those are the primary needs.


I would agree with that somewhat Diana7, but I've also seen men go absolutely to pieces because their wife left them. The difference is, as has so often been said, that women usually cope better because they are more sociable, develop more intimate friendships with other women, and the like, while many men find themselves completely alone. Just look at the contrast in suicide rates of men to women due to a spouse leaving them. 

I think what the OP is trying to say is that women often times take attention as a sign of love. My own wife is very much that way. Attention of various kinds is for her proof that I love her, and if I don't show it, she will react. Now of course, that's true for most people, but moreso for women I'd say.


----------



## 269370

You are reading too many CWI threads 

I think it’s a little simplistic and it’s difficult to generalise because each affair will have very different reasons and saying that you think you have ‘figured it out’ is akin to saying you have figured out human nature and how humans interact with each other. It’s not possible. The issues are too complex and even one case can never be figured out completely because it is an endless chain of events, without a clear origin you can really put a finger on, that leads one thing to another. There are certainly patterns and effective potential strategies towards certain type of behaviour but all in all too vague to make too many useful generalisations.

Also: the fact that you can’t relate to it is possibly because it never happened to you or you haven’t fallen in love with somebody involuntarily. We can’t control feelings or emotions but we can control how we act on them. I have seen many very rational and logical people justifying the most stupid decisions because the mind becomes biased and the person doesn’t know it or has a hard time switching over from this bias. It’s basically like a spell. Not that it makes it right in any way but I find it a little narrow minded sometimes having people jump onto anyone who admitted to an affair or simplistic trying to find a ‘universal formula’ to how or why cheating occurs. I don’t really understand the point; none of us know anything at all what the relationship looked like on the inside yet we like to judge and extrapolate (yes, am guilty of it too).

Regarding this:

“However love is actually wanting to give yourself to someone, not get something from someone.”

Love can mean anything. It’s a symbiosis, a state between two people. Some people would not be happy with someone “giving themselves to them” and it wouldn’t work for them at all. 
Does it mean they can’t love or can’t be loved?
Love is basically whatever works between two people rather than some objective idea of what it ‘should be’.

For example desire is the opposite of that. (It’s wanting to take something from someone. Quite badly.) Yet ‘making love’ is one of the generally accepted ways to express and celebrate ‘love’ between two people (yes, I know the caveats: ‘terms and conditions’ and various exceptions apply).

I guess my point is, I don’t read too much into what I’m reading here. Some stories and comments make you think and re-evaluate yourself or your outlook but about 95% of it has about the same intellectual and practical value as Jerry Springer show. Except the mods/bodyguards are much more pleasant here  (But I would not underestimate that 5%). 




sokillme said:


> Type 1. The cheating spouse who never thought they would cheat.
> 
> 
> Over a year ago when I started reading on these boards I was really struggling to understand how this stuff happens. I kept reading because I wanted to understand, this is how I work. I have a need to understand maybe to control it in some way. I think I even made a post, about how do they live with themselves or something. So a question from another thread lead me to post this. I realized that I feel like I have a handle on this now so I thought I would post this in a new thread as to not thread jack and also because maybe it will help some others too. Maybe what I write would make some sense and also help folks who are suffering with the disconnect that affairs bring. In my mind that is one of he hardest parts.
> 
> The post was here and the question was this -
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my answer which provides my feeling of this type of cheating in a greater scope.
> 
> --
> 
> If you can't do it you will never understand it. I was troubled by this greatly when I started reading these threads but after over a year of reading I really feel like I have a strong handle on how this works now. There seems to be only a small number of types of affairs if you study this stuff. In the case of cheaters like Steve's wife the best I can tell from reading this stuff is they operate primary on how they feel, or how it makes them feel. Feeling is there primary motivation in relationships, unlike others who may say love, or history, or loyalty, or safety, honor, dignity, doing what's right, all the things that are much more healthy. Another factor that I think is a risk is their primary love language may be "words of affirmation". That is because this is really the easiest to fake and takes the least effort. That is not to say everyone whose primary love language is WOA is a risk. But these cheaters really don't have any concept of love, they think love is wanting someone desperately. However love is actually wanting to give yourself to someone, not get something from someone. This idea is so foreign to them they have no clue. Here is my take, not sure if you want it or not.
> 
> These people never really had a good understanding of love probably because they didn't have good examples. They usually have low self-esteem and are broken, lots of times poor childhood as well. Lots of these women learned wrongly that their bodies were an avenue to get this attention that creates wanting, so they use it as a "currency". Men do the opposite they use complements, but the women's giving her body is the ultimate fulfillment of getting what is so desperately wanted. This is not always the case though and not what I am talking about here. What I am talking about here explains why sometimes this stuff can sneak up on a person. Some folks are out there looking to trade currency to get the feelings, but others aren't and are seemingly shocked that they cheated. This is why you hear folks say, I never thought I would be a person who cheated. The cheaters that are active are like drug addicts and are basically useless in relationships, but the cheaters that are passive maybe even more dangerous as they are really hard to spot as they don't even know themselves.
> 
> Anyway they meet someone usually when they are young just start out like all of us and it feels good and gives them the feeling of wanting. At this point this is all normal stuff. They think I have this desperate desire to be with this person so I am in love! That's not love yet though it's the very beginning of the mating process, it is an avenue to grow into love though with a healthy person. Eventually they get married and expect to be happy ever after. All the normal events of courtship have continued that intensity of want. This reaffirms in their mind that they are in love. In the beginning they are married and their spouse makes them feel good and successful, they bask in the afterglow that is the adventure of a successful courtship. At that point everything is fine, but the longer you are in a relationship the more everything just gets normal. The problem is long term love doesn't have the intensity that lust does. The wanting is gone because you can't want what you already have.
> 
> Then someone shows up and starts to give them attention and once again they feel good. In this case the person giving attention is the active kind of cheater, but it doesn't have to be, two people who are broken but passive like this can still create this dynamic that leads to cheating. Doesn't really matter who by the way as everyone has the potential to be attracted to tens of thousands of people, we are genetically built that way so we propagate the species. This attention and attraction creates in them a feeling of wanting again. (Again this can happen to anyone by the way even in good marriages. That is why some people mistakenly say everyone has the potential to cheat, I don't agree but it is true that everyone has the potential to meet someone who creates in them a desire to mate. Not everyone will act on it though.) Morals and character are what stops a person, they cut that off right there, they think, in another world that may have been fun but I am not that person. This is the best way of thinking and what in my mind is the most important quality you should be looking for in a mate. You want them to think it is more important for me to NOT be that person then to feel this wonderful intensity which is short lived anyway. Then a healthy person moves on and they are disciplined enough to do that. But in people like OP's wife she doesn't have disciple, she doesn't even think to have it. She follows her feelings as they are her primary motivation. Eventually attraction brings the intensity of wanting again and she thinks that that wanting is love. Then starts the questioning, why do I love this other guy? I must not be in love with my husband, my marriage must be bad, he doesn't make me feel this way anymore, he has failed me. The rewriting of the marriage begins. Whatever it is to justify cheating. Hell there are books that do just that, Ester Pearl anyone? Eventually the create enough justification in their mind to cheat. After all isn't love alwasy worth the risk and what we all want? Aren't we all entitled to be happy? Love is going to make me happy right?
> 
> How I finally figured it out, and what showed me it's all about the wanting was the obvious tell is how quickly they can change on a dime. Once they are caught most of them suddenly blow off their affair partner like they were garbage (just like they did their spouse by the way, interesting) and now they profess undying love for their spouse again. It always seemed so weird to me. Then I got it, it's not love it's just that desperately wanting feeling again, this time it's intense again because there is a real danger of losing the spouse. Losing the spouse plays into their terrible lack of self esteem which also plays into this whole thing. You can read it in their posts. "I want him so much, I can't loose her, I love them SO MUCH!" When just weeks earlier they blew the spouse off like garbage. The thing that really solidified this though was a post on another board by a cheating wife who had been married for decades. It was about how she felt she loved her husband now like she never did before. She just loved him SO much NOW. It just seemed disingenuous at first, like how could she really even believe this after how she treated him. But this is not uncommon, it's very typical and strange. It didn't make sense but also what she wrote about didn't really resonate as love to me, but just a desire for him to stick around. That was the eureka moment, I got it. She doesn't really know what love is I thought. She thinks love is an intense desire to be with the guy. That is how this can happen. After that a lot of this stuff started to make sense. Shame that board won't let me post on there.
> 
> This also explains why threatening divorce is a good tactic for these people because it creates the intensity of want again. Another example would be did you ever notice that a lot of these people hang on to folks who treat them like crap. Like their AP may cheat on them or be wishy-washy and that seems to just ramp up the intensity and desperation for them. Meanwhile the spouse could be a solid person who really loves and takes care of them. They have no desire for that kind of person. Lots of them have a past with abusive or unstable relationships. Partners who cheat on them repeatedly. It's because the uncertainty of the cheating AP creates in them that desperate want. Or more pointedly their insecurity makes them want that person to want them. Again want is love in their mind. A history of these kinds of relationships would now be a big red flag in my mind. Even more then it was before. They are broken.
> 
> But that is the thing, it's not love. It never was love. If you are in a relationship with a person who thinks like this you will always be in danger. Eventually the intensity will wear off in even the greatest love stories. Even in great recovery the the conditions that existed before will be there again. Unless the cheater learns how their thinking is wrong and works to change that (not an easy task at all) they are always going to be a danger. I am not sure if most of these people are even deep enough to get that concept. It is a mistake however to think that just because you unfaithful partner is sorry and professes their love that they are a good choice. The first question you should ask yourself is do they even know what love is? I propose that the ones who cheated and then changed on a dime don't. They may never get it or they can spend years changing their thought patterns. I won't get into my theories on if it is a good choice even if they learn to love. Enough to say that I think even with genuinely changed partners there may still be an insurmountable amount of damage. And like I said above there are tens of thousands of others who you can have relationships with. A lot of this is about the person cheated on and if they will be happy with the results in the long run.
> 
> That also doesn't take into account the type of person who can live two separate lives and have a long term history of lying to every primary relationship in their life. That add a whole other level of danger that goes beyond just not understanding what love it. But not everyone does that some cheat once and confess, and it makes sense that folks feel like those who do that are at least worth the risk to try again. But again I say you need to really did down and see if they even know what love is? what is their primary motivator?
> 
> So that is my long winded treaties. Maybe it's helpful. It has been helpful for me as I started reading on here because I really wanted to get a handle on how people could do this. I think at least in affairs like this I now understand. Maybe too well.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator

*What have I learned from TAM? Been on here for 6+ years now, and:

(1) Foremostly, that I am not alone in being a betrayed spouse. 

(2) That the incidence of infidelity is far greater than I had ever imagined that it could be, almost equally by both genders.

(3) That there are a far greater number of sympathetic people out there for the plight of the betrayed and for their family.

(4) And from what has been exposed by this learned and experienced board of advisors, that the betrayed can ultimately find love, trust, faith, and happiness again ~ although those first two are still eluding me! But then again, I imagine that some folks just naturally take longer than others!*


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## lucy999

Diana7 said:


> In my experience its men who get over relationships much quicker. I can think of 4 men who I know that either had wives who died or they were divorced from, and all were in a serious relationship within weeks or a few months and were married the year after they lost their wives. It was 4 years before I felt in anyway ready for a new relationship and 6 years before I met my now husband. Many women I know who are divorced are still alone many years later.


I completely agree. 

I think women are more emotional than men, generally.


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## 269370

To elaborate more on the ‘it could happen to anyone’ point. It’s because it can, and it does. ALMOST anyone. You know the statistics are pretty grim on this.
There are of course still plenty of people who don’t do it or stop themselves from doing it.

I think you might be in danger of idealising what love is and what it should mean to different people.

This:




sokillme said:


> If you can't do it you will never understand it. I was troubled by this greatly when I started reading these threads but after over a year of reading I really feel like I have a strong handle on how this works now. There seems to be only a small number of types of affairs if you study this stuff. In the case of cheaters like Steve's wife the best I can tell from reading this stuff is they operate primary on how they feel, or how it makes them feel. Feeling is there primary motivation in relationships, unlike others who may say love, or history, or loyalty, or safety, honor, dignity, doing what's right, all the things that are much more healthy.



It’s because ‘love’ is primarily BASED on a feeling. Most people will agree that it IS a feeling because you can’t really define it, but you can feel it and that’s how you know it.
But love is also a state as I mentioned before. Love is an idea as well as an ideal.

It is my belief that feelings, emotions and instincts are actually the primary driver of the human affliction. With animals, it’s the ONLY driver. We have the ‘advantage’ that we can evaluate and get some of our feelings under control to a certain extent, using reason and logic which helps us navigate through life. The ‘disadvantage’ is that because we are aware of consequences, we are also aware of many other less pleasant things, such as the finality of life, among other things. Everything comes at a price. It I think as a start, it would help to acknowledge human nature rather than dismiss it as some kind of disease.

Anyway, you are right to point out that a relationships then grow on other qualities, not just attraction (I think you meant that some people confuse attraction with love or the meaning of love?).
You are also right that certain personality traits (such as low self esteem and need for external validation) and childhood experiences can influence certain behaviour later in life. But in spite of all of it, there’s no ‘formula’ and all of it is still all a poor predictor of future behaviour. And many people will use ‘instincts’ if a partner is likely to cheat on them or not. But in the end, they hope for the best because it’s extremely prevalent. It doesn’t mean that the person is sick or mis-formed as an individual (we all have some types of deficiencies): it means the person is being a person (because it happens so much). 
You can’t ‘control’ it nor eradicate it. But you also don’t have to tolerate it if it happens to you.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> She didn't RA. 5 years later, she was unfaithful for the same reasons everyone else is.
> 
> I'm for divorce myself. I wouldn't cheat, but if I did and she wanted to have an RA, I would just divorce so she could have her freedom without lowering herself.
> 
> I would like to think I would not have a RA and just divorce but emotionally devastated people don't always make good decisions.


I don't think its about revenge 5 years later at least not consciously but its about letting ones guard down. We ALL face temptation even the most loyal spouse has temptation come into their lives at some point. The thing is when a BS faces that after being cheated on perhaps their defense mechanism is not there since they cant think "oh my innocent spouse is waiting at home and they would never do this to me". Well they would and they did. Just my theory.

I will admit I have so sympathy when a WS gets a taste of their own medicine they deserve it. And any spouse who wont forgive after being forgiven is not a great R partner are they?


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## Truthseeker1

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I had an RA to a week or two after *I found out. Problem for me was, when they are remorseless, it isn't revenge. *I knew it probably wasn't gonna make me feel better, but it sure as hell wasn't gonna make me feel worse. I sure as hell didn't feel any guilt. But there was really nothing to save at that point. It took me awhile to get my head around to the idea of divorce, it was so foreign to me.


That right there. An RA wont work on a spouse who has no remorse or regrets about what they did. They simply don't care. In those cases something like exposure might be true revenge and not an RA. I still contend a wayward can't truly get it unless they get betrayed.


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## RWB

8+ years with TAM, 9 years out form DD. 

1) You never really "Get Over It". You just heal as best as you can and move on, move over, or move out.

2) R or D, the BS the person you once were is no longer. Infidelity changes period.

3) After experiencing infidelity, the BS instantly comes to the realization, regardless of length of marriage, they really didn't know who there spouse was as a person.


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## Truthseeker1

RWB said:


> 8+ years with TAM, 9 years out form DD.
> 
> 1) You never really "Get Over It". You just heal as best as you can and move on, move over, or move out.
> 
> 2) R or D, the BS the person you once were is no longer. Infidelity changes period.
> 
> 3) After experiencing infidelity, the BS instantly comes to the realization, regardless of length of marriage, they really didn't know who there spouse was as a person.


Serious question - do you think the recovery also depends on the magnitude of the WS's infidelity? For example if there are multiple APs or LTA vs. an Ea or ONS? I mean aren't there some lines crossed by a WS that prevent the marriage from ever recovering and those BSs that do stay stay out for other reasons than true R? At that point its up to the BS to find happiness elsewhere dont you think?


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## Quality

sokillme said:


> I feel like I have a handle on this now so I thought I would post this in a new thread
> 
> I really feel like I have a strong handle on how this works now.
> 
> If you can't do it you will never understand it.
> 
> In the case of cheaters they operate primary on how they feel, or how it makes them feel.
> 
> Feelings are is their primary motivation in relationships



The notion that one is impervious to affairs and "can't do it" is just a feeling. It's not measurable or provable really until you're dead, at which point it's history and irrelevant. You just can't KNOW it. And that feeling combined with all your other feelings above are but a small example of you being a human, that lives his life and forms his opinions based on his feelings TOO {just like everyone else}.

You aren't a special snowflake incapable of really any sin and able to behave perfectly and logically in all circumstances with measured reason and impeccable character. 

Adultery may not be your particular weakness and what you've described a little in this thread is some wisdom on the subject you've picked up reading about others and all such KNOWLEDGE is power and can help all of us avoid such sins BEFORE our feelings overwhelm us but the risks continue nonetheless and we must all, as married persons, be diligent and discerning about such.

We're also ALL broken and depraved to varying degrees at varying circumstances and times in our lives. Morals, feelings, character, and opinions all change over time, especially when put under stress and tested. 




sokillme said:


> others who may say love, or history, or loyalty, or safety, honor, dignity, doing what's right, all the things that are much more healthy.


All feelings or words that impact our feelings - hence, living by our feelings. The closest you get here might be when you say "doing what's right". That involves looking to God for an objective measure of "what is right?" or subjectively, somehow, with your spouse consciously deciding, based upon logic, reason and feeling, what is "right" up front, then together DOING IT (behavior) and having our {good} feelings follow such obedience and then, after years of practice "doing what's right" and not having either of you fallen into a life of sin, you'll be a person and couple of character well-practiced in "doing what is right" and not what is "wrong". This COULD BE "much more healthy" unless the couple decides that, for them, what's "right" is swinging or a life of drugs and experimentation or polymory or, like Ester Perel allows or recommends, weekend hall passes to Vegas. 

{every check out ester perel on youtube speaking at polymory conferences - wow, she's a crazy wayward false teacher and expert on how NOT to be married ---- much longer} 




sokillme said:


> Morals and character are what stops a person, they cut that off right there, they think, in another world that may have been fun but I am not that person. This is the best way of thinking and what in my mind is the most important quality you should be looking for in a mate. You want them to think it is more important for me to NOT be that person then to feel this wonderful intensity which is short lived anyway. Then a healthy person moves on and they are disciplined enough to do that.


Time and time again, humans will change or alter their morals and throw away their character to follow, rationalize and justify doing whatever they FEEL like doing or have already done. Morals and character help but they don't protect you absolutely. For example, getting to the point of needing to "cut that off right there" and "in another world that may have been fun but I'm not that person" is way too risky. "That" shouldn't have happened at all if one has perfect boundaries. 

Morals, too, are based upon God and what He says in the bible where it's apparent that none of us have perfect morality or character since the fall.

Trying to live a life of morality and character is a good thing and help but good boundaries, accountability, and wisdom while living, learning and constantly pursuing an intimate, fulfilling, honest, interdependent and transparent marital relationship with our spouses is the closest we humans can get to being fairly certain you won't cheat.





sokillme said:


> How I finally figured it out,


Dime store psychology. True wisdom is figuring out you haven't figured anything out and probably won't. The battle between good and evil continues. I'm not an expert in this stuff either, just, much further along on the continuum than you. 




sokillme said:


> It always seemed so weird to me. Then I got it, it's not love it's just that desperately wanting feeling again, this time it's intense again because there is a real danger of losing the spouse. Losing the spouse plays into their terrible lack of self esteem which also plays into this whole thing. You can read it in their posts. "I want him so much, I can't loose her, I love them SO MUCH!" When just weeks earlier they blew the spouse off like garbage. The thing that really solidified this though was a post on another board by a cheating wife who had been married for decades. It was about how she felt she loved her husband now like she never did before. She just loved him SO much NOW. It just seemed disingenuous at first, like how could she really even believe this after how she treated him. But this is not uncommon, it's very typical and strange. It didn't make sense but also what she wrote about didn't really resonate as love to me, but just a desire for him to stick around. That was the eureka moment, I got it. She doesn't really know what love is I thought. She thinks love is an intense desire to be with the guy. That is how this can happen. After that a lot of this stuff started to make sense. Shame that board won't let me post on there.


It pretty rarely happens this way but still claiming to logically understand the feelings and rationals of a wayward spouse completely out of their minds lost in sin is fairly comical. These are the absolute lowest moments of any waywards persons entire life. Their feelings are all over the place. Sometimes it's a reflection of their lifelong character and morals and pain and hurt and lack of family and lack of love and life of sin, dishonesty and debasement whereas other times, it's just an aberration of such and a reflection of their humanity {our wicked and selfish hearts} in a moment or short period o time of their otherwise decent and sometimes glorious God fearing and loving lives. 

In other words, figuring out waywards are bat-crap crazy at or around discovery day isn't worthy of an eureka moment.




sokillme said:


> This also explains why threatening divorce is a good tactic for these people because it creates the intensity of want again.


Not really. Most wayward wives justify and rationalize these type of affairs you are generalizing herein as deserved because their betrayed husband doesn't and didn't cherish or "want" them anymore. "Threatening divorce" just proves that {adds to it} and further pushes her into the arms of her "wanting" lover. Threatening or even filing divorce has seemed to work in some situations {you can't know until you try, unfortunatly} temporarily {many still end up divorced because the divorce thread still feeds the affair on some levers}, so it's a risky move for the betrayed husband that wants to save his marriage and family and get OM out of everyone's life. My opinion is filing for divorce means you'll more likely end up divorced because it's the natural progression of such action and threatening divorce without follow through is just a weak shot at manipulation that worsen your position too. If you want to eventually 'activate" the "pursuer - distancer" dance you can simply go to Plan B and remove yourself from the triangle without helping your wife FEEL better about herself by pursuing the divorce for her and making the road to switching spouses that much easier.






sokillme said:


> A history of these kinds of relationships would now be a big red flag in my mind. Even more then it was before. They are broken.


Yes, when choosing a mate, their relationship history is vitally important as well as their feelings and wisdom gained regarding the same. Since we're all broken on some level, it's important to try to figure that brokenness out BEFORE marriage, rather than blindly dating and pretending everything is perfect and ignoring all red flags. 





sokillme said:


> that is the thing, it's not love. It never was love. If you are in a relationship with a person who thinks like this you will always be in danger. Eventually the intensity will wear off in even the greatest love stories. Even in great recovery the the conditions that existed before will be there again. Unless the cheater learns how their thinking is wrong and works to change that (not an easy task at all) they are always going to be a danger. I am not sure if most of these people are even deep enough to get that concept. It is a mistake however to think that just because you unfaithful partner is sorry and professes their love that they are a good choice. The first question you should ask yourself is do they even know what love is? I propose that the ones who cheated and then changed on a dime don't. They may never get it or they can spend years changing their thought patterns. I won't get into my theories on if it is a good choice even if they learn to love. Enough to say that I think even with genuinely changed partners there may still be an insurmountable amount of damage. And like I said above there are tens of thousands of others who you can have relationships with. A lot of this is about the person cheated on and if they will be happy with the results in the long run.


Being in love and behaving lovingly is hard for everybody, not just cheaters and former cheaters. My wife and I both learned a lot about love and how to be "in love" with each other, specifically, through the process of recovery, repentance {my wifes and my own} and forgiveness {my wife's and my own}. Some of it is just maturity, some knowledge, some emotions and much of it a gift from God and a result of obedience to Him. "Happiness" can be a byproduct of such obedience, not the goal. 




sokillme said:


> So that is my long winded treaties. Maybe it's helpful. It has been helpful for me as I started reading on here because I really wanted to get a handle on how people could do this. I think at least in affairs like this I now understand. Maybe too well.


Respectively, most of this post is fools gold. It has the appearances of truth and contains some truths and lots of generalization but there is a blaring blindspot overall. 

People aren't generally good with a few bad apples in the bunch - we are all TOTALLY DEPRAVED


----------



## RWB

Truthseeker1 said:


> Serious question - d*o you think the recovery also depends on the magnitude of the WS's infidelity?* For example if there are multiple APs or LTA vs. an Ea or ONS? I mean aren't there some lines crossed by a WS that prevent the marriage from ever recovering and those BSs that do stay stay out for other reasons than true R? At that point its up to the BS to find happiness elsewhere dont you think?


TS1,

Hard call. ONS, Serial LT cheating, it all depends...

I'm a case in point. If infidelity early in a marriage, no matter the circumstance, no children, I'm without question "get the hell out Dodge" regardless of remorseful, mercy me WS pleading. The pain of trying to R is just not worth the risk. 

Not to sound like a doormat, or cop out... Once children are involved, 20+ years together, financial ruin for the loyal husband, the stakes are magnified 100 fold. This is where the Loyal Spouse has to make decide.

Her at TAM we don't like to talk about the Loyal spouse that decides on R much. You and I have seen the D regardless crowd call them Cucks, Doormats, Beta's, whatever. Not so fast.

Many, some like me, didn't just jump off the cliff. Yeah, we were caught off guard. But, nothing teaches like experience (failure). We accept the betrayal, put on a happy face, do the MC, get those kids (most important) thru HS, college, and prepare financially (cash) for "that" day that only you know. Lawyers be damned.


----------



## Truthseeker1

RWB said:


> TS1,
> 
> 
> 
> Many, some like me, didn't just jump off the cliff. Yeah, we were caught off guard. But, nothing teaches like experience (failure). We accept the betrayal, put on a happy face, do the MC, get those kids (most important) thru HS, college,


Ok but what are you doing to make you happy? I'm sure your WW is relieved her family didnt get blown up but what about you? I dont know you but your post doesnt make you seem happy or content to me. I'm curious how do you take care you yourself to be more than a "happy face"?


----------



## sokillme

Quality said:


> The notion that one is impervious to affairs and "can't do it" is just a feeling. It's not measurable or provable really until you're dead, at which point it's history and irrelevant. You just can't KNOW it. And that feeling combined with all your other feelings above are but a small example of you being a human, that lives his life and forms his opinions based on his feelings TOO {just like everyone else}.
> 
> You aren't a special snowflake incapable of really any sin and able to behave perfectly and logically in all circumstances with measured reason and impeccable character.
> 
> Adultery may not be your particular weakness and what you've described a little in this thread is some wisdom on the subject you've picked up reading about others and all such KNOWLEDGE is power and can help all of us avoid such sins BEFORE our feelings overwhelm us but the risks continue nonetheless and we must all, as married persons, be diligent and discerning about such.
> 
> We're also ALL broken and depraved to varying degrees at varying circumstances and times in our lives. Morals, feelings, character, and opinions all change over time, especially when put under stress and tested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All feelings or words that impact our feelings - hence, living by our feelings. The closest you get here might be when you say "doing what's right". That involves looking to God for an objective measure of "what is right?" or subjectively, somehow, with your spouse consciously deciding, based upon logic, reason and feeling, what is "right" up front, then together DOING IT (behavior) and having our {good} feelings follow such obedience and then, after years of practice "doing what's right" and not having either of you fallen into a life of sin, you'll be a person and couple of character well-practiced in "doing what is right" and not what is "wrong". This COULD BE "much more healthy" unless the couple decides that, for them, what's "right" is swinging or a life of drugs and experimentation or polymory or, like Ester Perel allows or recommends, weekend hall passes to Vegas.
> 
> {every check out ester perel on youtube speaking at polymory conferences - wow, she's a crazy wayward false teacher and expert on how NOT to be married ---- much longer}
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Time and time again, humans will change or alter their morals and throw away their character to follow, rationalize and justify doing whatever they FEEL like doing or have already done. Morals and character help but they don't protect you absolutely. For example, getting to the point of needing to "cut that off right there" and "in another world that may have been fun but I'm not that person" is way too risky. "That" shouldn't have happened at all if one has perfect boundaries.
> 
> Morals, too, are based upon God and what He says in the bible where it's apparent that none of us have perfect morality or character since the fall.
> 
> Trying to live a life of morality and character is a good thing and help but good boundaries, accountability, and wisdom while living, learning and constantly pursuing an intimate, fulfilling, honest, interdependent and transparent marital relationship with our spouses is the closest we humans can get to being fairly certain you won't cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dime store psychology. True wisdom is figuring out you haven't figured anything out and probably won't. The battle between good and evil continues. I'm not an expert in this stuff either, just, much further along on the continuum than you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It pretty rarely happens this way but still claiming to logically understand the feelings and rationals of a wayward spouse completely out of their minds lost in sin is fairly comical. These are the absolute lowest moments of any waywards persons entire life. Their feelings are all over the place. Sometimes it's a reflection of their lifelong character and morals and pain and hurt and lack of family and lack of love and life of sin, dishonesty and debasement whereas other times, it's just an aberration of such and a reflection of their humanity {our wicked and selfish hearts} in a moment or short period o time of their otherwise decent and sometimes glorious God fearing and loving lives.
> 
> In other words, figuring out waywards are bat-crap crazy at or around discovery day isn't worthy of an eureka moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. Most wayward wives justify and rationalize these type of affairs you are generalizing herein as deserved because their betrayed husband doesn't and didn't cherish or "want" them anymore. "Threatening divorce" just proves that {adds to it} and further pushes her into the arms of her "wanting" lover. Threatening or even filing divorce has seemed to work in some situations {you can't know until you try, unfortunatly} temporarily {many still end up divorced because the divorce thread still feeds the affair on some levers}, so it's a risky move for the betrayed husband that wants to save his marriage and family and get OM out of everyone's life. My opinion is filing for divorce means you'll more likely end up divorced because it's the natural progression of such action and threatening divorce without follow through is just a weak shot at manipulation that worsen your position too. If you want to eventually 'activate" the "pursuer - distancer" dance you can simply go to Plan B and remove yourself from the triangle without helping your wife FEEL better about herself by pursuing the divorce for her and making the road to switching spouses that much easier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, when choosing a mate, their relationship history is vitally important as well as their feelings and wisdom gained regarding the same. Since we're all broken on some level, it's important to try to figure that brokenness out BEFORE marriage, rather than blindly dating and pretending everything is perfect and ignoring all red flags.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being in love and behaving lovingly is hard for everybody, not just cheaters and former cheaters. My wife and I both learned a lot about love and how to be "in love" with each other, specifically, through the process of recovery, repentance {my wifes and my own} and forgiveness {my wife's and my own}. Some of it is just maturity, some knowledge, some emotions and much of it a gift from God and a result of obedience to Him. "Happiness" can be a byproduct of such obedience, not the goal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Respectively, most of this post is fools gold. It has the appearances of truth and contains some truths and lots of generalization but there is a blaring blindspot overall.
> 
> People aren't generally good with a few bad apples in the bunch - we are all TOTALLY DEPRAVED


Mods does this offer anything of value except to tell me how this poster personally thinks I am stupid? Again I am compelled to defend myself but instead I will ask the mods to stop this poster from personally attacking me and singling me out, like he seems to do with so many other posters on here, not just me. No one else does this, why is he allowed to. 

By the way someone sent me a private message and told me that this specific post actually helped him understand that his wife's cheating "wasn't his fault". So I don't really care if you don't agree, that message is enough for me.


----------



## Quality

sokillme said:


> Mods does this offer anything of value except to tell me how this poster personally thinks I am stupid? Again I am compelled to defend myself but instead I will ask the mods to stop this poster from personally attacking me and singling me out, like he seems to do with so many other posters on here, not just me. No one else does this, why is he allowed to.
> 
> By the way someone sent me a private message and told me that this specific post actually helped him understand that his wife's cheating "wasn't his fault". So I don't really care if you don't agree, that message is enough for me.


Trying to help you actually understand love, marriage and infidelity better is not a personal attack. What is fear of discussion you have on a discussion forum?

And asking the mods for help defending yourself publicly is childish. This seemed to me like more of an off-topic thread discussing your opinions about infidelity so it can't really be thread-jacked ---- especially by just one post. 

Saying "no one else does this" is disingenuous too. There are and have been disagreeing opinions and debates on this forum since it's inception. In fact, Inmyprime disputed and referred to your opinions as oversimplified or basic earlier in this very thread. {I'm not quoting her or going back to what she said exactly - just what I now recall her saying before I "liked" her post earlier today}. 

If you can't defend your opinion from any and all other opinions, then maybe you shouldn't start a thread about them or respond to me at all, instead of asking the mods to help you out. I'm on topic TALKING about marriage and coping with infidelity. 

I'm glad someone liked it and found some truth in it. I clearly indicated it's not completely void of all truth or value. Your position paper to me, just substantially lacks depth of understanding and I wanted to encourage you to think and focus more on questions, notions and thoughts missing or overlooked especially when it comes to your own fallibility and weaknesses.


----------



## stillthinking

Ah, The Biblical cyber stalker is back. 

SoKillme, change your passwords, bank accounts, mother's maiden name, everything! :wink2:

Its a joke people, just having some fun. :grin2:

(That and I finally learned how to use the emoji thing.)

Let the debate continue.


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## Mrs. John Adams

At the end of the day....the only opinion that matters in a relationship is yours. Also at the end of the day...your opinion only applies to your relationship. 

While..infidelity is infidelity....we are all different, We process differently. So each person is entitled to an opinion...but that opinion does not necessarily apply to anyone else's relationship. 

My affair was almost 35 years ago. We are very different people today than we were then. We have both grown in our understanding of each other and in our relationship.

We learn life lessons from every experience we have....and we can chose to become better because of those things or we can choose to become bitter. 

I can tell you because i have lived it....that in our relationship...infidelity has left a scar that will absolutely never go away....and we both would give anything to undo it. But we are in a place that we are happy in spite of the infidelity. It does not define us or our relationship. It does not affect us on a daily basis. But we remember...and it still can make us sad.

this may not be true for you...but it is true for us


----------



## Quality

Mrs. John Adams said:


> At the end of the day....the only opinion that matters in a relationship is yours. Also at the end of the day...your opinion only applies to your relationship.
> 
> While..infidelity is infidelity....we are all different, We process differently. So each person is entitled to an opinion...but that opinion does not necessarily apply to anyone else's relationship.
> 
> My affair was almost 35 years ago. We are very different people today than we were then. We have both grown in our understanding of each other and in our relationship.
> 
> We learn life lessons from every experience we have....and we can chose to become better because of those things or we can choose to become bitter.
> 
> I can tell you because i have lived it....that in our relationship...infidelity has left a scar that will absolutely never go away....and we both would give anything to undo it. But we are in a place that we are happy in spite of the infidelity. It does not define us or our relationship. It does not affect us on a daily basis. But we remember...and it still can make us sad.
> 
> this may not be true for you...but it is true for us


Thank you for sharing that very insightful opinion with lots of wisdom and experience behind it. I'm a graduate of the school of hard knocks too. 

So much good has resulted from my wife's infidelity two decades ago that she's been completely washed and sanctified of such sin. Sometimes she may get sad and we both have that tinge of hesitancy every time we are about to share our testimony with others in real life but the feedback and the results of reaching out to other people secretly hurting and trying to deal with these serious issues on their own is just so overwhelming it's worth the small price we have to pay upfront as the devil tries to stop us and make us doubt ourselves and our ministry.

I think some scars can be rendered beautiful, not that we celebrate sin ever. It wasn't a gift, but rather an example of how God can use "dirty rags" like my wife and me to do and bring about healing, salvation and grace in others with our testimony of repentance, forgiveness and sanctification in Christ after the most horrible of martial offenses. Recovered marriages are everywhere but very few are willing to stand up and lead others along a fairly narrow pathway to true reconciliation. Nothing in our story glosses over the presence of evil. Quite the contrary. Bloodstains, tearstains were everywhere for a time and my heart was rubbed raw against the rocks of disloyalty and miscarried justice. Yet God redeemed the pain. Our pit became our palace and our near broken family now grows old together. The very acts intended to destroy our marriage turned out to, instead, strengthen it and our family for, hopefully, generations. We are both much more astute, discerning, careful and formidable opponents now than we were in our youth. 

The overall point is: There is always hope and cheaters don't have to be or remain "incapable" of anything, let alone "real love".


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

well you and your spouse and John and i can certainly testify...that there is hope, there is life, there is love, there is forgiveness, and there can even be happiness...after infidelity. Of course...not everyone will have the same experience...but i can say for us...after 35 years...it is true. I don't need to prove it...I don't need to argue about it...because at the end of the day...all that matters is John and I. I do my best to offer hope to others. That's the only reason I am here.


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## sokillme

stillthinking said:


> Ah, The Biblical cyber stalker is back.
> 
> SoKillme, change your passwords, bank accounts, mother's maiden name, everything! :wink2:
> 
> Its a joke people, just having some fun. :grin2:
> 
> (That and I finally learned how to use the emoji thing.)
> 
> Let the debate continue.


I think he is trying to get me to start something so the Mods will close this thread like the last one. They continue to do nothing, yet he continues to stalk me.


----------



## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> Mods does this offer anything of value except to tell me how this poster personally thinks I am stupid? Again I am compelled to defend myself but instead I will ask the mods to stop this poster from personally attacking me and singling me out, like he seems to do with so many other posters on here, not just me. No one else does this, why is he allowed to.
> 
> By the way someone sent me a private message and told me that this specific post actually helped him understand that his wife's cheating "wasn't his fault". So I don't really care if you don't agree, that message is enough for me.


Total agreement here. Serious pain in my posterior from said poster. He is legendary. Just listen to him. He will tell you.:smile2:


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> well you and your spouse and John and i can certainly testify...that there is hope, there is life, there is love, there is forgiveness, and there can even be happiness...after infidelity. Of course...not everyone will have the same experience...but i can say for us...after 35 years...it is true. I don't need to prove it...I don't need to argue about it...because at the end of the day...all that matters is John and I. I do my best to offer hope to others. That's the only reason I am here.


How long was your affair?


----------



## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> How long was your affair?


I'm sure she will answer but if I recall, it was very short. Maybe once or twice tops.

That couple was pretty cool.


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> well you and your spouse and John and i can certainly testify...that there is hope, there is life, there is love, there is forgiveness, and there can even be happiness...after infidelity. Of course...not everyone will have the same experience...but i can say for us...after 35 years...it is true. I don't need to prove it...I don't need to argue about it...because at the end of the day...all that matters is John and I. I do my best to offer hope to others. That's the only reason I am here.


Hey you. Good to see you posting! Hope you two are still having good times, love and joy.


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## Mrs. John Adams

I knew the OM about 8 weeks and then i had a one time sexual encounter....I confessed a couple of weeks later. 

John and i are ding very well...we are very blessed.


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## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I knew the OM about 8 weeks and then i had a one time sexual encounter....I confessed a couple of weeks later.
> 
> John and i are ding very well...we are very blessed.


Hey Mrs JA I hope you are both well. I'm not excusing what you did but a ONS is a far cry from a LTA of multiple APs. Those are a whole other level of betrayal and deception. There are red lines which WSs cross that make it worse and worse IMO. Had your affair gone on for years or had you had multiples APS that would have made R harder and the marriage almost impossible to fully recover IMO.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I knew the OM about 8 weeks and then i had a one time sexual encounter....I confessed a couple of weeks later.
> 
> John and i are ding very well...we are very blessed.


And he had a revenge affair right?

How long had you been married at that point?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I understand your opinion... but none of us can speculate the what if’s.... and what may be a red line for one may not be for another. John could say I wish you had just had an ea.... but then an ea may be more than someone else could forgive. That’s why I said none of us can speculate about or project our opinions onto others.


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## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I understand your opinion... but none of us can speculate the what if’s.... and what may be a red line for one may not be for another. John could say I wish you had just had an ea.... but then an ea may be more than someone else could forgive. That’s why I said none of us can speculate about or project our opinions onto others.


Agreed about people being able to forgive different things but there are red lines that are crossed where full recovery becomes impossible IMO. For exaple have a LTA that lasts for years it cant be the same when a WS lies and cheats for years and years. even if the couple is in R.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

We were married 11 years when I cheated. His ra was 2 years later. It too was short and never included intercourse.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> We were married 11 years when I cheated. His ra was 2 years later. It too was short and never included intercourse.


I remember that - he stopped. Amazing. No way I would have stopped if it had gone that far he must have amazing self-control


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## Mrs. John Adams

The red lines you are talking about only apply to you. You simply cannot project how someone else may feel or what they may be able to forgive. I cannot draw your red line. You cannot draw mine. I cannot tell you how you should react and you cannot tell me how I should react. 

If a couple agrees to reconcile or agrees to divorce it is strictly based on their red lines and responses to them and has nothing to do with my opinion about what they should or should not do. 

There were certainly people who felt John should divorce me. Guess they were wrong


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The red lines you are talking about only apply to you. You simply cannot project how someone else may feel or what they may be able to forgive. I cannot draw your red line. You cannot draw mine. I cannot tell you how you should react and you cannot tell me how I should react.
> 
> If a couple agrees to reconcile or agrees to divorce it is strictly based on their red lines and responses to them and has nothing to do with my opinion about what they should or should not do.
> 
> There were certainly people who felt John should divorce me. Guess they were wrong


I agree that different people forgive different things but there are red lines that make the affair worse - sleeping wiht an inlaw for example. There just are levels of depravity certain WSs engage in that makes their transgression worse. There is really no argument about that Mrs.JA - a lta or giving a BS an STD is worse than an EA. 

Couples can do what they want but I do doubt full R when the behavior is so depraved by the WS that they show no respect for their BS or their family. In such cases there is no putting it back together completely.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

His ra was about a lot of things... he wanted to get inside my head... he wanted to understand what I was thinking. He was also devastated and needed to feel desired... and he stopped to prove a point... that he could... and that I could have as well. 

Infidelity is complicated and there is no one right answer one size fits all response and reactions

I realize there are similarities in infidelities... but because we are all different... none are exactly the same


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## Mrs. John Adams

No there are only things that make affairs worse in your mind not necessarily someone else’s. 

Just because you feel a LTA is beyond recovery does not mean it is a reality for every couple who has experienced it. 

You want it to be black and white cut and dried and life just is not that way

There are some men who can forgive an Leta. There are some men who can forgive a serial cheater. I don’t think John could... but that does not mean that others could not

All I am trying to say is we don’t all have the same tolerance or the same ability to forgive and that’s ok. We each have to handle it the best we can for us and perhaps we all need to be more understanding and less judgmental of how others handle their own situations


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> We were married 11 years when I cheated. His ra was 2 years later. It too was short and never included intercourse.


That's right you two were virgins when you got married right?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I was yes


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I was yes


Wait he wasn't?

If he was it's tragic. If I remember it took you a long time to realize what a loss that was for him right? It was a huge loss for both of you really. Was his affair more of an EA? Yours was so short lived why did you think you feel so quickly? Was it a exit affair where after the fact you changed your mind, or were you just THAT attracted to the guy. 

I can see how his was calculated as you say. You are both Christians I suppose.


----------



## Quality

Mrs. John Adams said:


> well you and your spouse and John and i can certainly testify...that there is hope, there is life, there is love, there is forgiveness, and there can even be happiness...after infidelity. Of course...not everyone will have the same experience...but i can say for us...after 35 years...it is true. I don't need to prove it...I don't need to argue about it...because at the end of the day...all that matters is John and I. I do my best to offer hope to others. That's the only reason I am here.


A couple of unicorns we are.

I'd encourage you and John to sometimes share your story in real life, if at all possible, with young married couples whenever you come across them. They desperately need this information and warnings about the dangers and risks they all so willingly seem to undertake every day on social media. We seek out invitations to speak and share our testimony at various couples small groups being sure to first share our email and contact information such that anyone secretly struggling can get ahold of us privately the next day, week, month or anytime in the future when it happens to them. There's always at least one couple ---- usually several that will approach us sharing they are recovered, to ask questions or seek help. Betrayed men, in particular, very often never speak to anyone about this stuff and just knowing they aren't alone and being able to talk about it is so welcomed. 

It's a lot more rewarding than sharing here where they try to pick your story apart for angles to criticize you; and, when that doesn't work, they'll just claim you and|or your marriage are unhealthy because you're still here talking about it too much this many years later.

I'm glad I never had a revenge affair. I might have had the wrong girl happened around me a few nights I was out drowning my sorrows with some mates but fortunately, I didn't bring more sin into our household. Adultery isn't a punishment for adultery....it's a sin that hurts the adulterer the most in the long run and it's a false flag that anyone can find "self-respect" in the arms {or genitals} of another woman {or man}. 

.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> Wait he wasn't?
> 
> If he was it's tragic. If I remember it took you a long time to realize what a loss that was for him right? It was a huge loss for both of you really. Was his affair more of an EA? Yours was so short lived why did you think you feel so quickly? Was it a exit affair where after the fact you changed your mind, or were you just THAT attracted to the guy.
> 
> I can see how his was calculated as you say. You are both Christians I suppose.


It was tragic regardless.

Yes it took ma a long time to truly understand and have remorse. No his was not an EA at all. NO mine was not an exit affair.

yes we are both Christians


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Quality said:


> A couple of unicorns we are.
> 
> I'd encourage you and John to sometimes share your story in real life, if at all possible, with young married couples whenever you come across them. They desperately need this information and warnings about the dangers and risks they all so willingly seem to undertake every day on social media. We seek out invitations to speak and share our testimony at various couples small groups being sure to first share our email and contact information such that anyone secretly struggling can get ahold of us privately the next day, week, month or anytime in the future when it happens to them. There's always at least one couple ---- usually several that will approach us sharing they are recovered, to ask questions or seek help. Betrayed men, in particular, very often never speak to anyone about this stuff and just knowing they aren't alone and being able to talk about it is so welcomed.
> 
> It's a lot more rewarding than sharing here where they try to pick your story apart for angles to criticize you; and, when that doesn't work, they'll just claim you and|or your marriage are unhealthy because you're still here talking about it too much this many years later.
> 
> I'm glad I never had a revenge affair. I might have had the wrong girl happened around me a few nights I was out drowning my sorrows with some mates but fortunately, I didn't bring more sin into our household. Adultery isn't a punishment for adultery....it's a sin that hurts the adulterer the most in the long run and it's a false flag that anyone can find "self-respect" in the arms {or genitals} of another woman {or man}.
> 
> .


I have been around a long time....and one of the things I have learned about forums is that at the end of the day the only thing that matters is my relationship with my spouse and what the two of us think. That is why i commented on this thread to begin with....that was my message. 

Forums are great for what they do...they allow a broken person to find out they are not alone and to glean information that might assist in healing. At the end of the day...opinions from strangers really don't matter. What matters is how i take information and apply it to my situation. No one here knows me...or knows my spouse...so the "advice" given may or may not apply to our situation. 

John and I are doing very well....we don't need advice...we don't need fixing. So poking holes in my posts....accomplishes nothing...and i really don't care what anyone else thinks. I live in my life...


----------



## RWB

Truthseeker1 said:


> Serious question - *do you think the recovery also depends on the magnitude of the WS's infidelity? For example if there are multiple APs or LTA vs. an Ea or ONS?* I mean aren't there some lines crossed by a WS that prevent the marriage from ever recovering and those BSs that do stay stay out for other reasons than true R? At that point its up to the BS to find happiness elsewhere dont you think?


*On the magnitude and the lines crossed...* It does bias the chances of R. Just as the attitude of the WS, length of marriage, your age, children involved, financial implications. A good lawyer and counselor brings all this to the table. Probably the hardest decision considering the consequences ever made. 

*Happiness and True R...* Maybe I fall into the "Fake it til you make it" camp. On some level I feel infidelity is a "First world problem". I agree with your assessment on happiness. However, it's always been a personal responsibility. Relying on others is short term at best and usually ends up lacking. 

True Reconciliation? Divorce and Move On? Why are we still on this board years hence?


----------



## BluesPower

inmyprime said:


> You are reading too many CWI threads
> 
> I think it’s a* little simplistic and it’s difficult to generalize because each affair will have very different reasons* and saying that you think you have ‘figured it out’ is akin to saying you have figured out human nature and how humans interact with each other. It’s not possible. The issues are too complex and even one case can never be figured out completely because it is an endless chain of events, without a clear origin you can really put a finger on, that leads one thing to another. There are certainly patterns and effective potential strategies towards certain type of behavior but all in all too vague to make too many useful generalizations.


Sorry, have to disagree with this statement. I think it is quite the opposite in fact. 

Affairs may have some debatable types and some debatable causes, but they are all REMARKABLY similar. I think that is very evident if you are around these board very long. 

You could debate what the categories/types of affairs are and you could debate various causes, sure. 

But at the core they are all so similar. 

Which is the reason that anyone (almost anyone) call tell a poster almost instantly that their spouse is having an affair, when it started, if it is still going. 

Because the are all similar...


----------



## arbitrator

RWB said:


> *On the magnitude and the lines crossed...* It does bias the chances of R. Just as the attitude of the WS, length of marriage, your age, children involved, financial implications. A good lawyer and counselor brings all this to the table. Probably the hardest decision considering the consequences ever made.
> 
> *Happiness and True R...* Maybe I fall into the "Fake it til you make it" camp. On some level I feel infidelity is a "First world problem". I agree with your assessment on happiness. However, it's always been a personal responsibility. Relying on others is short term at best and usually ends up lacking.
> 
> True Reconciliation? Divorce and Move On? Why are we still on this board years hence?


*I, like a lot of other TAMer's remain on here simply because I feel that I have an obligation to, and that I like giving moral support to folks who are now undergoing what it was that I underwent several years hence!*


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Infidelity is similar in that the bottom line is betrayal

just like murder is murder ... but there are many ways to commit murder and many sets of circumstances and many different reactions. Yes similar in that a horrendous act was committed but each case is different because people are different. 

There simply is no one size fits all therefore...

All I am trying to convey is that we all may handle this situation differently and just because I handle it one way and you handle it another does not mean either of us is wrong.

Good to see you bp...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Arbitrator.. for anyone else to judge why you are here is ridiculous. 

I am here today because I want to be here today and why I am here is no one else’s business and it really doesn’t matter what they may think or how they may judge my intentions. No one need question why you are here... no one needs to worry about why I am here either and when they make assumptions about me it just proves they don’t really have a clue about who I am


----------



## Quality

BluesPower said:


> Sorry, have to disagree with this statement. I think it is quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> Affairs may have some debatable types and some debatable causes, but they are all REMARKABLY similar. I think that is very evident if you are around these board very long.
> 
> You could debate what the categories/types of affairs are and you could debate various causes, sure.
> 
> But at the core they are all so similar.
> 
> Which is the reason that anyone (almost anyone) call tell a poster almost instantly that their spouse is having an affair, when it started, if it is still going.
> 
> Because the are all similar...



I agree that once an affair started they are very similiar and it's easy to generalize a lot of things but, I think, Inmyprime {forgive me if I'm wrong} was more addressing the simplistic use of generalizations about people in affairs to make overall inferences about such waywards personalities, characteristics, abilities to feel love and express 'real' love before, during and after such infidelity.

In other words, she was criticizing OP's use of generalizations about affairs as generalizations about people.


That's not to say I think the notion is entirely without merit. I think there are certainly many personality characteristics and environmental factors that contribute to the likelihood that someone will cheat, just as there are other varying and sometimes certain personality and environmental factors that contribute to the likelihood someone will end up in jail, on drugs, become a murderer or even a false prophet. An effeminate young man of small stature might struggle with same-sex attraction, but it isn't his destiny just as a woman with struggles with her father and her sexuality and relationships with men might struggle with monogomy later on doesn't mean she has to cheat or won't ever become a good decent person who never commits adultery or one that can't repent should she fall. We all have our own struggles with sin. Some sins more than others. But it's the sin that's wrong and it's the sin that makes people truly awful. Stop the sin and anyone and everyone are redeemable and valuable, despite being "dirty rags", all of us. 

The point I really want to make is that none of us are better than the worst of us. Our hearts are all selfish and monstrous. We can all here on Coping with Infidelity agree we hate the sin of adultery, but at the same time, we need to hold out hope for our fallen wayward loved ones and love and pray for "our enemies". Pray that they turn from such evil snare and hedges of protection around our families. Whether we recover or divorce, holding on to the resentments of the past only hurts you. Forgiving is certainly easier when they've repented and turned from their adulterous sins, but even if they haven't, it's not healthy for you to judge them forever incapable of repenting. We really aren't that much better than "them". You don't have to maintain a relationship with them (and shouldn't if they remain unrepentent}, but like Jesus said at Calvary "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Continue with your own life and focus on discerning your own sins that you struggle with and pray that God affords you the same grace that you've offered your (or any) former wayward spouse for their sins.


----------



## Affaircare

@sokillme, 

You know me fairly well and we've had our discussion here and there. I think we have a fairly good understanding between us, and I wanted to comment on a couple things you wrote--hope you don't mind. 



> But that is the thing, it's not love. It never was love. If you are in a relationship with a person who thinks like this you will always be in danger. Eventually the intensity will wear off in even the greatest love stories. Even in great recovery the the conditions that existed before will be there again. Unless the cheater learns how their thinking is wrong and works to change that (not an easy task at all) they are always going to be a danger. I am not sure if most of these people are even deep enough to get that concept.


Your theory (in a nutshell) is that people who cheat think of love as a feeling/emotion that is "intense wanting" and don't understand what love really is. Thus, when the intense wanting goes to a simmer, as happens in long-term relationships, and another person comes along whom they "intensely want" it is mistaken as some sort of love and infidelity occurs (I'm paraphrasing of course). 

I have to admit that as a formerly wayward who worked hard to earn that title, I think this has some truth to it, because one of the things that I had to take great time to learn was exactly WHAT real love and true commitment *are*. I had a more "Hollywood" vision of love as a younger person--and that ended horribly in my first marriage--and in my second marriage to Dear Hubby, I didn't understand that love was what you promise to GIVE to the other person as long as you live...not that you will "be loved" as long as they live. You vow to spend the rest of your life learning them to love them better! 

Thus, in order to really and truly recover after an affair, the truth is that a wayward does have to entirely change the way they think...and changing the way your mind operates changes your feelings and your actions. Great effort is needed to not only study and learn what real love is...but also to practice it in practical ways such as understanding that feelings can come and go based on times of the month, hunger, anger, tiredness or loneliness (so don't make decisions based only on "feelings")--or that fidelity means giving 100% only to the one to whom you promised to give it! It means getting to know your own self enough to know your own weak points and then protecting your spouse and your marriage from yourself! This takes a lot of courage and work, and it's my experience that few want to look at themselves that closely in the mirror. Are there some? Sure--but not too many! Most would rather "take the easy way" and either rugsweep it totally, or do a couple changes "here and there" and not do the real digging and real self-examination.

In recovery, the wayward isn't the only one who has to change though, @sokillme. We all agree that committing adultery is 100% the responsibility of the adulterer...but the condition of the marriage prior to the affair needs to be addressed. If the condition left the marriage vulnerable, then frankly that has to change and that would involve effort on the betrayed spouse's side to examine themselves too. As an example from my own life, my Dear Hubby and I examined the way that we mourned tragic events. His "style" was to withdraw and process his grief until he had a handle on it, and then proceed...my "style" was to hug and share and turn to my spouse for support as I process, and then proceed. I had to learn that he was not emotionally withdrawing from ME and give him space to do what he needed to do, trusting he'd come back...and he had to learn to trust me that he didn't have to say anything, but I needed a hug. It was mutual. If I had learned my side, but he didn't learn his, it would have left our attempt at recovery at a disadvantage (like with a ***** in the armor). 



> It is a mistake however to think that just because you unfaithful partner is sorry and professes their love that they are a good choice. The first question you should ask yourself is do they even know what love is? I propose that the ones who cheated and then changed on a dime don't.


Again I think I would agree with you here. I think an unfaithful person can realize or suddenly "see" in one moment the damage they've done, and in that moment, make the choice to stop right then and there and do no more damage. However, to change on a dime from acting in a way that is unloving and harmful...to claiming to love just seems disingenuous to me. Real repentance can start in one moment--but then there would not be professions, rather just act in an entirely different way. In order to act in an entirely different way, you have to think in an entirely different way, and in order to think differently you have to learn...and learning takes time. Everything that was hidden now has to be open and shared for the rest of your life. Everything that you're ashamed of has to be in the light. And trust can be rebuilt, but it takes literally *years *to do and requires literally years of *consistent, honest, transparent living*--being where you say you'll be, doing what you say you'll do. 

I would say that if someone is unfaithful and there seems to be sorrow, the first thing I'd recommend is not asking a question at all, but observing. Watch how they ACT. If there is acceptance of whatever consequence (I called it "willingness to eat crow without complaint" in my head), that says something. No I don't think it should be held over someone's head forever, but yes I do think it is UTTERLY reasonable to still experience the natural consequences of the choice! Watch for real work at changing on their own, without you reminding them. Watch for trying to be or respond differently...better. Watch for openness and honesty that you can verify. Verify it! And if you see some actions like that, it's possible that the unfaithful person truly means it. If you don't see that kind of behavior without you essentially begging for it, then it's an attempt to avoid the pain of the consequences of what they've done. It will hurt to "lose it all" and so it's natural to try to avoid that pain by saying "I'm sorry!" but saying words does not mean it's true--ACTING in a loving way means it's true.



> However love is actually wanting to give yourself to someone, not get something from someone.


*This is so vitally important.* Look at typical wedding vows--we probably all know them by heart: _"I take you to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, forsaking all others until death parts us."_ Notice that nowhere in that vow does it say anything about that other person loving you, completing you, making your life easier, or only staying until it's not fun anymore! It talks about what YOU promise to GIVE to the other person!! It also says right out loud that you know life is going to throw some curve balls and it's going to have tough moments, and YOU are promising to love THEM and give yourself only to them as long as you breathe! That's powerful. And it is all about what you *give *... not what you *get*. 

Yet so many think of love and marriage as something more like "Ah ha! Now I have a lifelong companion so I'll never feel lonely. Now someone will finally love me as I am and I don't have to try anymore. Now I get someone who'll do all the stuff I hate. Now I GET..." See it? It's like backward! And that was one of the biggest lessons I had to learn--to reverse that thinking from receiving love...to GIVING IT and spending a lifetime consistently and patiently learning another person and how they prefer to be loved. 



> Next there is the idea the the cheater has some consequences and has to compete, it's a good motivator to change but it also shows the cheater the my spouse has value an is to be cherished as others want them as well.


I have to confess, I somewhat disagree with this. I absolutely agree with there being consequences, and it shouldn't be a punishment but rather the natural result of what they chose. For example, if it was a workplace affair, then the job has to go--I don't care how much the job pays or how good it is or any of that. Clearly the wayward demonstrated an inability to work in that place properly and protect their marriage, and plenty of people have survived "unemployment" but they do not survive ongoing adultery! So the job goes, and that is a natural consequence. If it was online, as was my case, then computers go. I personally made a living on my computer, and having to give up my computer hurt! But I demonstrated an inability to use that tool properly and protect their marriage, so the computer went--for a time. When it came back, we had safeguards in place that never, EVER changed (like our screens faced each other and we never, EVER did a quick "put down" and if we did put a screen down where the other spouse didn't have time to see it, the other spouse automatically got to look right then and there at what was put down). There was no social media or unshared email. Everything was shared and expected to be looked at freely at any time or always. ETC. 

So consequences I think are appropriate, but making a wayward "compete" with others is childish. Yep, I get it--a betrayed spouse feels like they are undesirable and cast aside, but the way to build a person's esteem isn't "two wrongs making a right" but rather to start doing two rights. One of the things the wayward does need to learn is how to build up, respect, and LOVE their spouse, so the way to build the betrayed esteems is to let the wayward practice what they're learning! For example, when Dear Hubby and I first started recovering, I had to learn to re-like him, and to my unending gratitude and his credit, we started by becoming friends first again. We actually did like each other, so we would do things we both enjoyed, and we would sit up into the night and talk about things (like friends do)...and as he willingly did those things, I actually did begin to FEEL affection for him, so I said that out loud. Yep it wasn't an instant "fix" of affection immediately, but he gained esteem knowing I really and truly liked him, and I gained practice in learning him, building him up, thinking highly of him, respecting him, and acting that out in a loving way. Win-win. 

FINAL THOUGHTS: A very wise friend of mine shared with me his theory of infidelity last night, saying that he thought wayward spouses cheated because they lacked self-respect. OUCH! I have to admit, that made me cry, but it was true! Some truth is painful to hear, but that doesn't make it any less true! 

When a person has self-respect, they would feel lack or feel a need being unmet, and they'd turn inward rather than turning to another person to fulfill them. My ouch was shame to think that is exactly who I had been...but like I said it was exactly true! The thought that redeems me, though, is that I'm not that person any longer. I did fall--but I also did stop and do the work to change, so that's not who I am any longer.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> No there are only things that make affairs worse in your mind not necessarily someone else’s.
> 
> Just because you feel a LTA is beyond recovery does not mean it is a reality for every couple who has experienced it.
> 
> You want it to be black and white cut and dried and life just is not that way
> 
> There are some men who can forgive an Leta. There are some men who can forgive a serial cheater. I don’t think John could... but that does not mean that others could not
> 
> All I am trying to say is we don’t all have the same tolerance or the same ability to forgive and that’s ok. We each have to handle it the best we can for us and perhaps we all need to be more understanding and less judgmental of how others handle their own situations


So I don't agree at all with this statement. There are lots of stuff I am totally fine with being judgemental about. Christians completely fail on the judgment issue, it leads to a lack of judgment that hurts the church. It's why you have serial abuser who go from church to church blowing them up, this is really the same thing. They will always bring up cast the first stone. They were going to kill that women, that's the point. You don't have to have corporal punishment even in a societal sense for sin. That doesn't mean there should be no consequences for it. 

I have to say that advising anyone to return to someone who abused them in a LTA or is a serial cheater is immoral. You can forgive but it's wrong to stay with an long term abuser. It's also bad for the person and marriage/society as well. It is demeaning to the person who stays and it demean marriage as an institution. People stay for lots of reasons but doesn't make it right. Some things should not be tolerated in a moral society. A marriage with a history of serial abuse is one of those things.


----------



## sokillme

Quality said:


> I agree that once an affair started they are very similiar and it's easy to generalize a lot of things but, I think, Inmyprime {forgive me if I'm wrong} was more addressing the simplistic use of generalizations about people in affairs to make overall inferences about such waywards personalities, characteristics, abilities to feel love and express 'real' love before, during and after such infidelity.
> 
> In other words, she was criticizing OP's use of generalizations about affairs as generalizations about people.
> 
> 
> That's not to say I think the notion is entirely without merit. I think there are certainly many personality characteristics and environmental factors that contribute to the likelihood that someone will cheat, just as there are other varying and sometimes certain personality and environmental factors that contribute to the likelihood someone will end up in jail, on drugs, become a murderer or even a false prophet. An effeminate young man of small stature might struggle with same-sex attraction, but it isn't his destiny just as a woman with struggles with her father and her sexuality and relationships with men might struggle with monogomy later on doesn't mean she has to cheat or won't ever become a good decent person who never commits adultery or one that can't repent should she fall. We all have our own struggles with sin. Some sins more than others. But it's the sin that's wrong and it's the sin that makes people truly awful. Stop the sin and anyone and everyone are redeemable and valuable, despite being "dirty rags", all of us.
> 
> The point I really want to make is that none of us are better than the worst of us. Our hearts are all selfish and monstrous. We can all here on Coping with Infidelity agree we hate the sin of adultery, but at the same time, we need to hold out hope for our fallen wayward loved ones and love and pray for "our enemies". Pray that they turn from such evil snare and hedges of protection around our families. Whether we recover or divorce, holding on to the resentments of the past only hurts you. Forgiving is certainly easier when they've repented and turned from their adulterous sins, but even if they haven't, it's not healthy for you to judge them forever incapable of repenting. We really aren't that much better than "them". You don't have to maintain a relationship with them (and shouldn't if they remain unrepentent}, but like Jesus said at Calvary "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Continue with your own life and focus on discerning your own sins that you struggle with and pray that God affords you the same grace that you've offered your (or any) former wayward spouse for their sins.


I agree in the sense that we are not better or more like we don't have more worth then them in God's eyes. 

However some us are much better candidates to be marred though. We can say we are much better at being married then they are. Just like some of us are much better candidates to be leaders or doctors or whatever. Marriage is a responsibly that requires a level emotional maturity to succeed in. You have the potential to do life long damage to the person you are with. There are plenty of responsibilities that we as a society think some people are not capable of handling. I am not saying we should ban people from being married but we should certainly encourage people to avoid certain other individuals who have proven they are not good candidates for that responsibility. That is just the moral thing to do. As far as I can see many of the people who cheat have no business being in a committed relationship because most of them have emotional issues that end up causing abuse to their spouses. That's just a fact.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> You know me fairly well and we've had our discussion here and there. I think we have a fairly good understanding between us, and I wanted to comment on a couple things you wrote--hope you don't mind.


I welcome it, it's why I posted it. Plus you always add great stuff to the discussion. I will read and respond later. Looking forward to it. 

Hope you are doing well my friend. 0


----------



## BluesPower

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Infidelity is similar in that the bottom line is betrayal
> 
> just like murder is murder ... but there are many ways to commit murder and many sets of circumstances and many different reactions. Yes similar in that a horrendous act was committed but each case is different because people are different.
> 
> There simply is no one size fits all therefore...
> 
> All I am trying to convey is that we all may handle this situation differently and just because I handle it one way and you handle it another does not mean either of us is wrong.
> 
> Good to see you bp...





Quality said:


> I agree that once an affair started they are very similiar and it's easy to generalize a lot of things but, I think, Inmyprime {forgive me if I'm wrong} was more addressing the simplistic use of generalizations about people in affairs to make overall inferences about such waywards personalities, characteristics, abilities to feel love and express 'real' love before, during and after such infidelity.
> 
> In other words, she was criticizing OP's use of generalizations about affairs as generalizations about people.
> 
> 
> That's not to say I think the notion is entirely without merit. I think there are certainly many personality characteristics and environmental factors that contribute to the likelihood that someone will cheat, just as there are other varying and sometimes certain personality and environmental factors that contribute to the likelihood someone will end up in jail, on drugs, become a murderer or even a false prophet. An effeminate young man of small stature might struggle with same-sex attraction, but it isn't his destiny just as a woman with struggles with her father and her sexuality and relationships with men might struggle with monogomy later on doesn't mean she has to cheat or won't ever become a good decent person who never commits adultery or one that can't repent should she fall. We all have our own struggles with sin. Some sins more than others. But it's the sin that's wrong and it's the sin that makes people truly awful. Stop the sin and anyone and everyone are redeemable and valuable, despite being "dirty rags", all of us.
> 
> The point I really want to make is that none of us are better than the worst of us. Our hearts are all selfish and monstrous. We can all here on Coping with Infidelity agree we hate the sin of adultery, but at the same time, we need to hold out hope for our fallen wayward loved ones and love and pray for "our enemies". Pray that they turn from such evil snare and hedges of protection around our families. Whether we recover or divorce, holding on to the resentments of the past only hurts you. Forgiving is certainly easier when they've repented and turned from their adulterous sins, but even if they haven't, it's not healthy for you to judge them forever incapable of repenting. We really aren't that much better than "them". You don't have to maintain a relationship with them (and shouldn't if they remain unrepentent}, but like Jesus said at Calvary "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Continue with your own life and focus on discerning your own sins that you struggle with and pray that God affords you the same grace that you've offered your (or any) former wayward spouse for their sins.


With all due respect to @Mrs. John Adams and @Quality, And good to see you as well MrsJSA, I just disagree. 

I could go on about this and I understand that everyone has their opinions, but I will say this. 

What ever method you were to use to categorize affairs and their causes, if we all spent enough time we would find several, common categories as well as several common categories that most of us could agree on. 

Now, everyone wants to think that their affair are their SO's affair were really a one-of situation, it was just the right place right time and on and on. 

The fact is that the ARE ALL remarkably similar within the specific categories. 

And I just disagree with anyone the says otherwise. I could take the last 10 infidelity threads on here or any other forum and boil it down to the common factors. 

Everyone is free of course to disagree and that is fine, but that is how it is. A lot of things is life are like this and I think everyone that deal with these things want to think that theirs is special, they are not.


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> With all due respect to @Mrs. John Adams and @Quality, And good to see you as well MrsJSA, I just disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on about this and I understand that everyone has their opinions, but I will say this.
> 
> 
> 
> What ever method you were to use to categorize affairs and their causes, if we all spent enough time we would find several, common categories as well as several common categories that most of us could agree on.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, everyone wants to think that their affair are their SO's affair were really a one-of situation, it was just the right place right time and on and on.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is that the ARE ALL remarkably similar within the specific categories.
> 
> 
> 
> And I just disagree with anyone the says otherwise. I could take the last 10 infidelity threads on here or any other forum and boil it down to the common factors.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is free of course to disagree and that is fine, but that is how it is. A lot of things is life are like this and I think everyone that deal with these things want to think that theirs is special, they are not.




If you agree that people are individuals and have unique features in their personalities then you would agree that interactions between people will also be unique. It would be illogical to think otherwise. In fact if you put together two unique people, you have just multiplied that ‘uniqueness’ of their interaction on top of it.

Of course there are always similarities as with everything and we always look for patterns. If you take anything that is remotely complex, you will find a pattern. And the way some affairs evolve certainly have a rhyme to them more often than not.

I was going more against the notion that this can be somehow ‘figured out’. I think one can learn to understand human nature better but I’m not sure it’s possible to figure it out.

Plus we all have some kinds of flaws and instead of pointing out other people’s flaws, I think it’s good to search for your own flaws (I’m not saying you or OP are doing it: this is a note to myself!). I don’t really have a stake in this game: I have not cheated nor has my my wife ever cheated and we are not planning to, as far as I know but I observe other people and I agree certain things are similar in relationships. But it’s like all the trillions of galaxies out there: you can categorise them into various types but all of them are unique in their composition.
So are the events and circumstances inside a relationship. One cannot approach it in absolute terms and I don’t personally believe these things are black and white like this. But it’s my personal opinion.

The question is more this: what does the realisation that you managed to find a patterns and explanations for certain human behaviour accomplish? Will it help you predict whether this could happen to you? Will it help you be sure to select a partner where you would be absolutely sure that they would never cheat on you?
I have seen too many black swan events to live my life with the realisation that some things are just too complex and impossible to predict or explain. But we always try.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1

arbitrator said:


> *I, like a lot of other TAMer's remain on here simply because I feel that I have an obligation to, and that I like giving moral support to folks who are now undergoing what it was that I underwent several years hence!*


You also supply us with witty observations on infidelity. >


----------



## Affaircare

arbitrator said:


> *I, like a lot of other TAMer's remain on here simply because I feel that I have an obligation to, and that I like giving moral support to folks who are now undergoing what it was that I underwent several years hence!*


I'm here to see @arbitrator's pictures of Mathias! LOL :grin2:

Okaaaaayy...that's one of the reasons, but there are others >


----------



## BluesPower

inmyprime said:


> If you agree that people are individuals and have unique features in their personalities then you would agree that interactions between people will also be unique. It would be illogical to think otherwise. In fact if you put together two unique people, you have just multiplied that ‘uniqueness’ of their interaction on top of it.
> 
> Of course there are always similarities as with everything and we always look for patterns. If you take anything that is remotely complex, you will find a pattern. And the way some affairs evolve certainly have a rhyme to them more often than not.
> 
> I was going more against the notion that this can be somehow ‘figured out’. I think one can learn to understand human nature better but I’m not sure it’s possible to figure it out.
> 
> Plus we all have some kinds of flaws and instead of pointing out other people’s flaws, I think it’s good to search for your own flaws (I’m not saying you or OP are doing it: this is a note to myself!). I don’t really have a stake in this game: I have not cheated nor has my my wife ever cheated and we are not planning to, as far as I know but I observe other people and I agree certain things are similar in relationships. But it’s like all the trillions of galaxies out there: you can categorise them into various types but all of them are unique in their composition.
> So are the events and circumstances inside a relationship. One cannot approach it in absolute terms and I don’t personally believe these things are black and white like this. But it’s my personal opinion.
> 
> The question is more this: what does the realisation that you managed to find a patterns and explanations for certain human behaviour accomplish? Will it help you predict whether this could happen to you? Will it help you be sure to select a partner where you would be absolutely sure that they would never cheat on you?
> 
> I have seen too many black swan events to live my life with the realisation that some things are just too complex and impossible to predict or explain. But we always try.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, no, sorry. That is the point of my comment. 

There are so many similarities with affairs that is, for some reason, impossible for their to be another reason other than there are common scenarios, that are for the most part ...common. 

Some brief examples, not an exhaustive list...

1) Wife, poor boundaries, lack of self esteem, starts new job. Her and hubby are fighting, he works all the time, she has to take care of the kids, he does not show her enough attention, New Boss does. 

Affair: Root cause, selfishness and poor boundaries for wife.

2) Husband, sex life at home is not great, wife gained weight, hot new secretary, interested...

Affair: Root cause, entitled husband, thinks he won't get caught, *******...

I mean you could do this all day long. And if anyone had the time to do it, we might find some of the actual root causes. 

I am not saying however that there are not some outliers in each category. I am just saying that All affairs have some level of similarity within the various categories. 

And I am also saying that everyone's affair is not some special snowflake...


----------



## MyRevelation

BluesPower said:


> Well, no, sorry. That is the point of my comment.
> 
> There are so many similarities with affairs that is, for some reason, impossible for their to be another reason other than there are common scenarios, that are for the most part ...common.
> 
> Some brief examples, not an exhaustive list...
> 
> 1) Wife, poor boundaries, lack of self esteem, starts new job. Her and hubby are fighting, he works all the time, she has to take care of the kids, he does not show her enough attention, New Boss does.
> 
> Affair: Root cause, selfishness and poor boundaries for wife.
> 
> 2) Husband, sex life at home is not great, wife gained weight, hot new secretary, interested...
> 
> Affair: Root cause, entitled husband, thinks he won't get caught, *******...
> 
> I mean you could do this all day long. And if anyone had the time to do it, we might find some of the actual root causes.
> 
> I am not saying however that there are not some outliers in each category. I am just saying that All affairs have some level of similarity within the various categories.
> 
> And I am also saying that everyone's affair is not some special snowflake...


Speaking of similarities, there appear to be two groups that have problems with what you're suggesting ... those who have never been cheated on (Yeah, once upon a time I thought my W and our M was something "special") and those with a pro-R agenda that are constantly trying to prove their "rule" by citing the "exceptions" in the real world.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

BluesPower said:


> With all due respect to @Mrs. John Adams and @Quality, And good to see you as well MrsJSA, I just disagree.
> 
> I could go on about this and I understand that everyone has their opinions, but I will say this.
> 
> What ever method you were to use to categorize affairs and their causes, if we all spent enough time we would find several, common categories as well as several common categories that most of us could agree on.
> 
> Now, everyone wants to think that their affair are their SO's affair were really a one-of situation, it was just the right place right time and on and on.
> 
> The fact is that the ARE ALL remarkably similar within the specific categories.
> 
> And I just disagree with anyone the says otherwise. I could take the last 10 infidelity threads on here or any other forum and boil it down to the common factors.
> 
> Everyone is free of course to disagree and that is fine, but that is how it is. A lot of things is life are like this and I think everyone that deal with these things want to think that theirs is special, they are not.


you have misunderstood....i am not saying that an affair is "special" i am saying that it is individual. Just like our discussion...you want to lump all affairs into the same category...and i am saying you cant because "people" are involved...and no two people are the same...therefore...while affairs are similar....they are also different. and because they are "different" and the people involved in them are different....the reactions are different. Your rules simply do not apply to me....my rules do not apply to you. I cannot draw your red line nor can i tell you how to handle the situation the way i would handle it and declare that the best answer for you. 

for one thing...until you are in an infidelity situation...you simply do not know how you would handle it. For example...John always told me if i had an affair there would be no questions asked..our relationship would be over...and YET here is he 35 years later. and I was one of those who declared I could NEVER have an affair..and yet ...I did. There are no absolutes in infidelity.....there is no black and white...there is no one size fits all....and most of all there is no right and wrong answer...because you must handle it the way that is best for you and i must handle it the way that is best for me.

I agree with a lot of Chump lady's view point...the problem i have with her is that she has absolutes...and there simply may not be.

I have a friend...who cheated on her husband for a long time....and chump lady's philosophy would have thrown her under the bus. However...she and her husband have been in reconciliation for a long time and they are happier than they have ever been. their answers...were right for them...and at the end of the day...that's the only answers that matter.

Yes many affairs are similar...yes many reactions are similar....but no two are exactly the same...they simply cannot be...because the individuals involved are different.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

MyRevelation said:


> Speaking of similarities, there appear to be two groups that have problems with what you're suggesting ... those who have never been cheated on (Yeah, once upon a time I thought my W and our M was something "special") and those with a pro-R agenda that are constantly trying to prove their "rule" by citing the "exceptions" in the real world.


Accept that you have no idea which group i might belong to. You see... I cheated and i have been cheated on. In addition...I absolutely think that divorce is the best answer for most people. I think the odds of a successful reconciliation are against most who try it.

So how do you handle folks like me...who actually don't belong to any group at all...but who encourage those affected by infidelity to seek the answers that are best for them as individuals? and why do we need to put people into groups?


----------



## arbitrator

Truthseeker1 said:


> *You also supply us with witty observations on infidelity.* >


*And kind of like with my nearly lifelong football refereeing avocation, I just call'em like I see'um!

And most times, they ain't too pretty!*


----------



## MyRevelation

Mrs. John Adams said:


> So how do you handle folks like me...who actually don't belong to any group at all...but who encourage those affected by infidelity to seek the answers that are best for them as individuals? and why do we need to put people into groups?


Honestly, I really don't give much, if any, R advice. I mostly attempt to help BH's get out of infidelity, while maintaining their self-respect, which usually means D, and it appears we agree on that point. Speaking for my situation, and most others I've encountered since, one of the first things I did to jolt my WW out of her fantasy was to show her EXACTLY how her and OM were acting like a chapter in the Cheater's Handbook. She wasn't special to him, and he wasn't anything special, and what they shared certainly wasn't anything special. Hers was the very typical scenario of a middle aged woman, losing her mind over some empty ego kibbles tossed her way by a douche with only one thing in mind ... the exact same scenario we see played out over and over in one form or the other ... and FTR, I'm not putting anyone into a specific group ... they do that all by themselves through their own actions.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have a friend...who cheated on her husband for a long time....and chump lady's philosophy would have thrown her under the bus. However...she and her husband have been in reconciliation for a long time and they are happier than they have ever been. their answers...were right for them...and at the end of the day...that's the only answers that matter.


Is their happiness the only thing that is important in the equation in your mind?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

MyRevelation said:


> Honestly, I really don't give much, if any, R advice. I mostly attempt to help BH's get out of infidelity, while maintaining their self-respect, which usually means D, and it appears we agree on that point. Speaking for my situation, and most others I've encountered since, one of the first things I did to jolt my WW out of her fantasy was to show her EXACTLY how her and OM were acting like a chapter in the Cheater's Handbook. She wasn't special to him, and he wasn't anything special, and what they shared certainly wasn't anything special. Hers was the very typical scenario of a middle aged woman, losing her mind over some empty ego kibbles tossed her way by a douche with only one thing in mind ... the exact same scenario we see played out over and over in one form or the other ... and FTR, I'm not putting anyone into a specific group ... they do that all by themselves through their own actions.


I just try to be encouraging and give hope to a hopeless situation...I don't try to get anybody out of anything...well that's not really true...I do try to get cheaters to get their head out of their arse and face themselves in the mirror. But I don't try to talk betrayed spouses into anything...I figure they know what is best for them and I certainly don't. It is not my mission to talk them into anything...other than doing what they feel is best for them.


----------



## Pepe1970

lucy999 said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> I think women are more emotional than men, generally.


That's why they tend to be more faithful, I think

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> Is their happiness the only thing that is important in the equation in your mind?


yes....very simply yes....if they are happy who am i to tell them that they are not? or that they have done it wrong.

Life is too short....and if they make each other happy...that is all that matters as far as i am concerned...because what i think really is not important.


----------



## 269370

MyRevelation said:


> Speaking of similarities, there appear to be two groups that have problems with what you're suggesting ... those who have never been cheated on (Yeah, once upon a time I thought my W and our M was something "special") and those with a pro-R agenda that are constantly trying to prove their "rule" by citing the "exceptions" in the real world.



those are the ONLY groups: those that have been cheated on and those who haven’t. There are no more groups!
Which basically means that everyone has a problem with this view.

I don’t have a problem with this view. I just have a different view. Ah, I must be the exception!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Accept that you have no idea which group i might belong to. You see... I cheated and i have been cheated on. In addition...I absolutely think that divorce is the best answer for most people. I think the odds of a successful reconciliation are against most who try it.
> 
> So how do you handle folks like me...who actually don't belong to any group at all...but who encourage those affected by infidelity to seek the answers that are best for them as individuals? and why do we need to put people into groups?


At least it should be pointed out that you are the outlier. Unfortunately people like you and Quality don't do that and in the end I think you give a lot of people false hope. Kind of like telling the poor to play the lotto. At best it causes lots of folks to waste time and prolong their pain in my opinion. Especially when it's obvious that the people they are trying to R with are immoral just by their very actions. Someone like Chump Lady understands that on the internet he audience is broad so she can really know the situation individually so she gives general advice that will be the most successful for the largest group of people.


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> Well, no, sorry. That is the point of my comment.
> 
> 
> 
> There are so many similarities with affairs that is, for some reason, impossible for their to be another reason other than there are common scenarios, that are for the most part ...common.
> 
> 
> 
> Some brief examples, not an exhaustive list...
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Wife, poor boundaries, lack of self esteem, starts new job. Her and hubby are fighting, he works all the time, she has to take care of the kids, he does not show her enough attention, New Boss does.
> 
> 
> 
> Affair: Root cause, selfishness and poor boundaries for wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Husband, sex life at home is not great, wife gained weight, hot new secretary, interested...
> 
> 
> 
> Affair: Root cause, entitled husband, thinks he won't get caught, *******...
> 
> 
> 
> I mean you could do this all day long. And if anyone had the time to do it, we might find some of the actual root causes.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not saying however that there are not some outliers in each category. I am just saying that All affairs have some level of similarity within the various categories.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am also saying that everyone's affair is not some special snowflake...



I think there’s maybe some confusion. I’m not discussing the similarities of how affairs actually evolve and I don’t think Sokillme was either. Even though he talks about ‘types of affairs’, most of his post is actually centred around the character features and thought processes of the cheater (‘they don’t understand what love is’ ‘what drives them to cheat?’ etc): it seems that this is the bit he is trying to figure out more than the similarities between each affair case (correct me if I’m wrong). Of course on the outside, how an affair evolves has many similarities.

But it doesn’t begin to explain the WHY. Which is extremely complex and that’s what I was discussing.
We all read the same stories and I agree many of them are very similar on the surface.
As is every man’s story with a LD spouse or every woman’s complaint about her husband watching porn.
There is no argument with the HOW. But it’s the WHY that’s interesting and I think what the initial post focused on and what I was addressing.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MyRevelation

inmyprime said:


> those are the ONLY groups: those that have been cheated on and those who haven’t. There are no more groups!
> Which basically means that everyone has a problem with this view.
> 
> I don’t have a problem with this view. I just have a different view. Ah, I must be the exception!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I read some of your original thread, and it doesn't surprise me in the least that you and I aren't going to "get" each other's POV.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> At least it should be pointed out that you are the outlier. Unfortunately people like you and Quality don't do that and in the end I think you give a lot of people false hope. Kind of like telling the poor to play the lotto. At best it causes lots of folks to waste time and prolong their pain in my opinion. Especially when it's obvious that the people they are trying to R with are immoral just by their very actions. Someone like Chump Lady understands that on the internet he audience is broad so she can really know the situation individually so she gives general advice that will be the most successful for the largest group of people.


Please understand that while MrsJA may be an outlier in some respects, she has vast experience with infidelity and life in general. Yes she is one of the few that successfully reconciled and continues to work on it almost daily. 

While I don't always agree with her and while she has jumped on me more than once, I do have the utmost respect for her opinion. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I just try to be encouraging and give hope to a hopeless situation...I don't try to get anybody out of anything...well that's not really true...I do try to get cheaters to get their head out of their arse and face themselves in the mirror. But I don't try to talk betrayed spouses into anything...I figure they know what is best for them and I certainly don't. It is not my mission to talk them into anything...other than doing what they feel is best for them.


For me @Mrs. John Adams, I am looking at things differently. I am actively giving advice to get the BS out of infidelity ASAP. 

For both men and women, but specifically for men, I actively encourage them to actually understand what is going on and hopefully help them to stand up and be a strong man. 

I would hope that no one would spend one more minute with a spouse that is evil, insane or just so messed up that nothing they do will have any impact. 

I believe for one thing, that in almost every situation, that divorce is the best choice, esp for men. 

There are a few exceptions, but I think very few, otherwise, divorce is the best overall answer for most people.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> yes....very simply yes....if they are happy who am i to tell them that they are not? or that they have done it wrong.
> 
> Life is too short....and if they make each other happy...that is all that matters as far as i am concerned...because what i think really is not important.


First off it's possible for people to be happy living in degrading situations. It's possible to be happy in an abusive situation if you are emotionally damaged enough. Don't think that is a good thing though. Why did he stay? Is it possible he is just afraid and decided to live out the remainder of his life in a crappy situation because he thought he couldn't do better? That to me is not a happy ending but a tragedy. 

Would you say the same for people who steal? For instance would it be good for society if say we allowed those who were truly sorry for stealing face no consequence? How about child abuse?

In your friends case what does it do for their son if they have one to see his mother treat his father and family with such disrespect and little consequence? What do you think his son feels about this really? About marriage in general Do you think that sets him up for a good marriage in the future or good relationships with women? What about love and consequence or action? I wonder if they took that into account when he took her back. Did anyone point that out? What does it do for their daughter to see the same thing? How will that affect her relationship with men? What doesn't that do for their friends marriages? For their kids friends if they know? Will any of them think well it's really not a big deal. Such an such's family did alright. I think it should at least be considered right? We do that with other things.

Where would we be if everyone just forgave cheating no matter what? Do you think there would be more or less? Personally I think how cheating is thought about in Europe is pretty much a consequence of this attitude. Everyone cheats, it's been totally normalized. Also people don't get married anymore because if keeping your vows has no consequence why even have them. The whole thing is rightly seen as a shame. I mean that is an argument people make here all the time, it's just a piece of paper. I have a hard time staying it's wrong. If someone can have two relationships for years and you still call yourself married afterwords then it really is just a piece of paper. I mean there are vows for a reason. This is the society we are moving towards, and it's partially those who are abuse but take back their abusers and in the process normalize that behavior that are doing it. And it's Christians leading the way unfortunately. I for one hope that most marriage that have infidelity in them lead to divorce. Vows need to be honored, you don't honer them by allowing your spouse to crap all over them like they don't matter. 

What do YOU think of these points? I'm curious?


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> I think there’s maybe some confusion. I’m not discussing the similarities of how affairs actually evolve and I don’t think Sokillme was either. Even though he talks about ‘types of affairs’, most of his post is actually centred around the character features and thought processes of the cheater (‘they don’t understand what love is’ ‘what drives them to cheat?’ etc): it seems that this is the bit he is trying to figure out more than the similarities between each affair case (correct me if I’m wrong). Of course on the outside, how an affair evolves has many similarities.
> 
> But it doesn’t begin to explain the WHY. Which is extremely complex and that’s what I was discussing.
> We all read the same stories and I agree many of them are very similar on the surface.
> As is every man’s story with a LD spouse or every woman’s complaint about her husband watching porn.
> There is no argument with the HOW. But it’s the WHY that’s interesting and I think what the initial post focused on and what I was addressing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am really trying to just get to some similarities that I see in the mindset of people who behave this way. I think pointing out the obvious fact that everyone is an individual is kind of a silly argument. I mean if that's the case why do we have the behavioral sciences. Not saying I am a scientist, but like someone said everything follows patterns even people. All it takes is reading a couple 100 of these threads and you start to see there is very little difference in most of these stories in the sense that lots of them sound alike. They are not all alike but there are about 5 or 6 common ones. I just wrote about what I saw in one of them. I think the main point is the cheaters mistaken belief about what love is, and how shocking it is when they get the realization that it's not what they think. It's really just my opinion, you can think it's crap if you want. 

There is a reason why the call it a cheaters script.


----------



## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> Please understand that while MrsJA may be an outlier in some respects, she has vast experience with infidelity and life in general. Yes she is one of the few that successfully reconciled and continues to work on it almost daily.
> 
> While I don't always agree with her and while she has jumped on me more than once, I do have the utmost respect for her opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> For me @Mrs. John Adams, I am looking at things differently. I am actively giving advice to get the BS out of infidelity ASAP.
> 
> For both men and women, but specifically for men, I actively encourage them to actually understand what is going on and hopefully help them to stand up and be a strong man.
> 
> I would hope that no one would spend one more minute with a spouse that is evil, insane or just so messed up that nothing they do will have any impact.
> 
> I believe for one thing, that in almost every situation, that divorce is the best choice, esp for men.
> 
> There are a few exceptions, but I think very few, otherwise, divorce is the best overall answer for most people.


I think we have a moral responsibility to encourage people to get out of abuse and away from their abuser.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> At least it should be pointed out that you are the outlier. Unfortunately people like you and Quality don't do that and in the end I think you give a lot of people false hope. Kind of like telling the poor to play the lotto. At best it causes lots of folks to waste time and prolong their pain in my opinion. Especially when it's obvious that the people they are trying to R with are immoral just by their very actions. Someone like Chump Lady understands that on the internet he audience is broad so she can really know the situation individually so she gives general advice that will be the most successful for the largest group of people.


I try not to give people false hope...I never tell people that my situation is the norm...or that i have all of the answers. I am VERY aware that we beat the odds...but I am also smart enough to know that we are not special...and if we could make it so can others.

I would also like to point out to you that chump lady is in the business of selling books...she has found her niche...and plays it very well. Her advice is no more correct than mine is. She divorced... I reconciled....in our own way...we are both successful.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> First off it's possible for people to be happy living in degrading situations. It's possible to be happy in an abusive situation if you are emotionally damaged enough. Don't think that is a good thing though. Why did he stay? Is it possible he is just afraid and decided to live out the remainder of his life in a crappy situation because he thought he couldn't do better? That to me is not a happy ending but a tragedy.
> *I have no idea ...it is none of my business. They say they are happy...they appear to be happy...I believe them.*
> 
> Would you say the same for people who steal? For instance would it be good for society if say we allowed those who were truly sorry for stealing face no consequence? How about child abuse?
> *who said that people who have reconciled and declare happiness have paid no consequences? WE will pay the consequences the rest of our lives for our infidelities....whether we divorced or reconciled...we still have to live with what we have done... and what you believe to be my penance is irrelevant,*
> 
> In your friends case what does it do for their son if they have one to see his mother treat his father and family with such disrespect and little consequence? What do you think his son feels about this really? About marriage in general Do you think that sets him up for a good marriage in the future or good relationships with women? What about love and consequence or action? I wonder if they took that into account when he took her back. Did anyone point that out? What does it do for their daughter to see the same thing? How will that affect her relationship with men? What doesn't that do for their friends marriages? For their kids friends if they know? Will any of them think well it's really not a big deal. Such an such's family did alright. I think it should at least be considered right? We do that with other things.
> *I said nothing about children...but i can tell you that this couple has adult children who all know of the infidelity. Everything has been discussed and shared. It is none of my business anyway. You seem to think I am responsible for their happiness and their children's happiness...and that i have some say in how they live their lives. *
> 
> Where would we be if everyone just forgave cheating no matter what? Do you think there would be more or less? Personally I think how cheating is thought about in Europe is pretty much a consequence of this attitude. Everyone cheats, it's been totally normalized. Also people don't get married anymore because if keeping your vows has no consequence why even have them. The whole thing is rightly seen as a shame. I mean that is an argument people make here all the time, it's just a piece of paper. I have a hard time staying it's wrong. If someone can have two relationships for years and you still call yourself married afterwords then it really is just a piece of paper. I mean there are vows for a reason. This is the society we are moving towards, and it's partially those who are abuse but take back their abusers and in the process normalize that behavior that are doing it. And it's Christians leading the way unfortunately. I for one hope that most marriage that have infidelity in them lead to divorce. Vows need to be honored, you don't honer them by allowing your spouse to crap all over them like they don't matter.
> *I am going to do my best to answer you...but it is a bit hard to follow your line of thinking. First let me make this VERY clear. I have one obligation....and that obligation is to John. I betrayed JOHN...I did not betray you or Europe or America or anybody else. I am not responsible for society...I am responsible for ME. I have held myself accountable....and i have lived my life being the very best woman, wife, mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt, that I can be. I have made mistakes. I have made bad choices. But I have also done the best I can to learn from those mistakes and choices...and to work on myself to become a better person. I work on it DAILY. I am a Christian....which means that i believe in forgiveness...but God promises forgiveness to those who admit they have sinned and have repented of that sin. The consequences of that sin remain with me the rest of my life....but i have been forgiven.
> 
> My husband and i have a wonderful relationship. We have learned a lot in the past 46 years we have been married...there are lessons I wish we had not learned...I wish there were things we had not done...but one thing i can tell you for certain and i speak for the both of us...we do not regret staying together and at the end of the day...that is all that matters.*
> 
> What do YOU think of these points? I'm curious?


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I am really trying to just get to some similarities that I see *in the mindset of people who behave this way*. I think pointing out the obvious fact that everyone is an individual is kind of a silly argument. I mean if that's the case why do we have the behavioral sciences. Not saying I am a scientist, but like someone said everything follows patterns even people. All it takes is reading a couple 100 of these threads and you start to see there is very little difference in most of these stories in the sense that lots of them sound alike. They are not all alike but there are about 5 or 6 common ones. I just wrote about what I saw in one of them. I think the main point is the cheaters mistaken belief about what love is, and how shocking it is when they get the realization that it's not what they think. It's really just my opinion, you can think it's crap if you want.
> 
> There is a reason why the call it a cheaters script.


Yes exactly: the mindset. That's what I thought you meant, rather than how affairs unfold (which is different from how 'the mindset' works, although it is partly a consequence of how one thinks, but those two are still two different things).

I don't think it's 'crap' at all (I don't think I ever said it), I am just clarifying a few things, in case it's helpful in your thinking, if it's not, just disregard it.

I do think that observing from the outside how an affair unfolds doesn't tell us that much about the mindset itself to warrant such sweeping generalisations. That was the main point I was trying to make. One thing is generalising a series of events (where I agree, there are many similarities) however when it comes to generalising 'mindsets', that's where I think you might be taking too much of a leap. The fact that everyone is an individual maybe obvious and silly, but your argument does not take this into account: instead you are lumping them in 5-6 categories, based on events that occurred.

Btw if it sounds like I am an affair-apologist, I am not: I just think this stuff is so complex (not 'special', just complex) that every case has to be judged on a case by case basis (if it *has* to be judged at al).

And also regarding the 5-6 scenarios themselves: I do agree they all sound very similar but one has to remember the stories are all presented from the BS's point of view and the way they uncover the betrayal, will always be very similar. You (as the reader) will then infer something about her 'mindset' through the eyes of the BS and generalise about the cheating spouses, without knowing anything about what actually goes on in their head (because they aren't posting).

You will never (rarely) hear the story of a wayward spouse. In real life, I have met women who were severely abused, emotionally blackmailed, controlled in any way possible, beaten, mistreated, threatened etc: an affair would pale into complete insignificance by comparison. I could never say that leaving a spouse through an affair is 'always wrong' and that those people must be sick, evil and heartless. That's what I found a bit simplistic.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I think we have a moral responsibility to encourage people to get out of abuse and away from their abuser.


If you can always know with absolute certainty who the abuser is then go for it.


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> I believe for one thing, that in almost every situation, that divorce is the best choice, esp for men.


Especially for men? What's so special about men that they 'deserve' divorce when their spouse is cheating but women don't?


----------



## Quality

sokillme said:


> However some us are much better candidates to be marred though. We can say we are much better at being married then they are.


Thank you for the opportunity to respectfully exchange ideas.


Maybe we're "better candidates" until we're not.

Life-long monogamy isn't graded on a curve. One slip up and it's failure and one finds themselves hoisted on their own petard. 

Be careful out there. It's a long race to the grave and lots can happen.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> Where would we be if everyone just forgave cheating no matter what? Do you think there would be more or less? Personally I think how cheating is thought about in Europe is pretty much a consequence of this attitude. *Everyone cheats, it's been totally normalized.*


I am not sure where you are getting your 'data' from. But I have been living in Europe all my life and do not see it 'normalized' at all.


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> I welcome it, it's why I posted it. Plus you always add great stuff to the discussion. I will read and respond later. Looking forward to it.
> 
> Hope you are doing well my friend. 0


I knew you'd discuss it civilly--believe it or not, I've learned to trust you! I love forward to your response, and yes sir...I am doing well. 

:grin2:


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> Yes exactly: the mindset. That's what I thought you meant, rather than how affairs unfold (which is different from how 'the mindset' works, although it is partly a consequence of how one thinks, but those two are still two different things).
> 
> I don't think it's 'crap' at all (I don't think I ever said it), I am just clarifying a few things, in case it's helpful in your thinking, if it's not, just disregard it.
> 
> I do think that observing from the outside how an affair unfolds doesn't tell us that much about the mindset itself to warrant such sweeping generalisations. That was the main point I was trying to make. One thing is generalising a series of events (where I agree, there are many similarities) however when it comes to generalising 'mindsets', that's where I think you might be taking too much of a leap. The fact that everyone is an individual maybe obvious and silly, but your argument does not take this into account: instead you are lumping them in 5-6 categories, based on events that occurred.
> 
> Btw if it sounds like I am an affair-apologist, I am not: I just think this stuff is so complex (not 'special', just complex) that every case has to be judged on a case by case basis (if it *has* to be judged at al).
> 
> And also regarding the 5-6 scenarios themselves: I do agree they all sound very similar but one has to remember the stories are all presented from the BS's point of view and the way they uncover the betrayal, will always be very similar. You (as the reader) will then infer something about her 'mindset' through the eyes of the BS and generalise about the cheating spouses, without knowing anything about what actually goes on in their head (because they aren't posting).
> 
> You will never (rarely) hear the story of a wayward spouse. In real life, I have met women who were severely abused, emotionally blackmailed, controlled in any way possible, beaten, mistreated, threatened etc: an affair would pale into complete insignificance by comparison. I could never say that leaving a spouse through an affair is 'always wrong' and that those people must be sick, evil and heartless. That's what I found a bit simplistic.


When I said "You can think it's crap" I meant you plurally not you particularly.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure where you are getting your 'data' from. But I have been living in Europe all my life and do not see it 'normalized' at all.


It's mostly the French I gather, isn't it always.

I read a lot. 0 Been to Europe, had a friend who went to school there, and dated and fell in love with a European girl.


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> I agree in the sense that we are not better or more like we don't have more worth then them in God's eyes.
> 
> *However some us are much better candidates to be marred though. We can say we are much better at being married then they are. * Just like some of us are much better candidates to be leaders or doctors or whatever. Marriage is a responsibly that requires a level emotional maturity to succeed in. You have the potential to do life long damage to the person you are with. There are plenty of responsibilities that we as a society think some people are not capable of handling. I am not saying we should ban people from being married but we should certainly encourage people to avoid certain other individuals who have proven they are not good candidates for that responsibility. That is just the moral thing to do. As far as I can see many of the people who cheat have no business being in a committed relationship because most of them have emotional issues that end up causing abuse to their spouses. That's just a fact.


May I point out something to you @sokillme? I personally think of marriage as a crucible. [A crucible is a ceramic or metal container in which metals or other substances may be melted or subjected to very high temperatures.] 

We all come into the crucible immature or imperfect in some way, and the ups and downs of life and the normal day-to-day of an intimate relationship with another is the crucible that is supposed to mature us! I don't think people come to the crucible of marriage already ready to really be a good married person, because as kids and singles we have NO IDEA of what that takes! In the marriage, the whole idea is to learn!

Now...I think people who have had a good example in their parents or families, or people who have a natural personality that is very honest have an advantage in the crucible. They may be more likely to successfully be crushed or melted and come out of it okay. But in real life, losing children or family members, losing jobs and struggling financially, losing health--all these things very typically happen in a long, monogamous marriage, and all these things put people into the crucible and they can either be crushed/melted and try to "stay what they were" or try to "stay crushed/melted"....OR they can endure the severe trial and be forged into something new! That is the whole point OF the crucible!

Thus I think to say that some people are "better candidates" is essentially taking an attitude of superiority.


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> It's mostly the French I gather, isn't it always.
> 
> I read a lot. 0 Been to Europe, had a friend who went to school there, and dated and fell in love with a European girl.


Oh good heavens, those crazy French!


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Truthseeker1 said:


> Serious question - do you think the recovery also depends on the magnitude of the WS's infidelity? For example if there are multiple APs or LTA vs. an Ea or ONS? I mean aren't there some lines crossed by a WS that prevent the marriage from ever recovering and those BSs that do stay stay out for other reasons than true R? At that point its up to the BS to find happiness elsewhere dont you think?


I don't think it depends on the type or magnitude of the affair, so much as the level of trust-breaking that was done, and the effort the WS may put into rebuilding it afterwards.

A one-time drunken ONS immediately confessed with the WS immediately swearing off alcohol has a far better chance of recovery than a years-long EA where the WS takes it underground upon discovery and keeps lying to the BS. 

The latter involves serious and ongoing deception, and there is really no recovery possible. The former, despite having more sexual contact, is a much better candidate for recovery.

Or the difference between a past PA, where it stopped and the WS learned from it and made changes and never did it again but didn't confess, vs a past PA where the WS still interacts with the AP and is therefore being far more deceptive on an ongoing basis?

When you find out your WS has been manipulating and lying to you from even before the wedding, there's no hope.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> May I point out something to you @sokillme? I personally think of marriage as a crucible. [A crucible is a ceramic or metal container in which metals or other substances may be melted or subjected to very high temperatures.]
> 
> We all come into the crucible immature or imperfect in some way, and the ups and downs of life and the normal day-to-day of an intimate relationship with another is the crucible that is supposed to mature us! I don't think people come to the crucible of marriage already ready to really be a good married person, because as kids and singles we have NO IDEA of what that takes! In the marriage, the whole idea is to learn!
> 
> Now...I think people who have had a good example in their parents or families, or people who have a natural personality that is very honest have an advantage in the crucible. They may be more likely to successfully be crushed or melted and come out of it okay. But in real life, losing children or family members, losing jobs and struggling financially, losing health--all these things very typically happen in a long, monogamous marriage, and all these things put people into the crucible and they can either be crushed/melted and try to "stay what they were" or try to "stay crushed/melted"....OR they can endure the severe trial and be forged into something new! That is the whole point OF the crucible!
> 
> Thus I think to say that some people are "better candidates" is essentially taking an attitude of superiority.


I don't think it's superiority. But then again, I know how I write so I am not going to deny I can be a bit strident. > 

What I am talking about here though is the type of person who lies for years to their spouse and all the major people in their lives while the carry on an affair. Or the person who sees hookers while traveling. The ones who blow up their marriage and then throw it in their partners faces. Those people for the most part are immoral. I don't believe someone who is selfish like that for whatever reason is really capable of being marred, or having a good marriage. The two mindsets are just diametrically opposed. 

Marriage or at least a good one as you know takes thinking of your spouse first. It takes a giving up of ones self. There is just too much crap like you say above that happens were if you don't think this way you are going to blow up your marriage. If infidelity is a requirement for your marriage then someone who is this immorally selfish is just not going to be able to give it to you. 

So yes the spouse that has a 2 years affair is not nor were they ever a good candidate to be in a marriage. I stand by that. They shouldn't be married to anyone. The just do too much damage and are too emotionally retarded to get the magnitude and responsibility that they have to their partner. That doesn't mean that they have to always be that way forever. But up until that point they weren't and it's probably going to take a lot of work to know different. 

Let me ask you at the point when you cheated on your husband that was early in your marriage right? You had come from a bad marriage where you yourself were cheated on. Honestly looking at your thinking and your actions in hindsight now, were you a good candidate to be married at that point or would it have been better if you were more mature or emotionally stable?


----------



## sokillme

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't think it depends on the type or magnitude of the affair, so much as the level of trust-breaking that was done, and the effort the WS may put into rebuilding it afterwards.
> 
> A one-time drunken ONS immediately confessed with the WS immediately swearing off alcohol has a far better chance of recovery than a years-long EA where the WS takes it underground upon discovery and keeps lying to the BS.
> 
> The latter involves serious and ongoing deception, and there is really no recovery possible. The former, despite having more sexual contact, is a much better candidate for recovery.
> 
> Or the difference between a past PA, where the it stopped and the WS learned from it and made changes and never did it again but didn't confess, vs a past PA where the WS still interacts with the AP and is therefore being far more deceptive on an ongoing basis?
> 
> When you find out your WS has been manipulating and lying to you from even before the wedding, there's no hope.


See what I think you guys don't take into account is the level of morality or character (or should I say lack of such) that it takes to do this stuff. Lots of people can have a bad day. They can fall off the wagon. But someone who repeatedly makes bad choices who has the wherewithal to cover it up for years. This stuff becomes a pattern, a lifestyle. Just the ability to compartmentalize means there is something in your personalty that is going to make you have issues in a relationship like marriage where it requires a level of honesty to be effective. Plus do they even have any bond with their spouse if they can do that? Not the kind that you would expect. Many times the have ulterior motives to even be in the marriage at that point. 

It's like the guy who drinks and drives one time and kills someone. They may never drink again. But the guy who get's drunk every night and then one day kills someone he will probably continue to drink. Infidelity as far as I can tell works the same way. For some folks it becomes a lifestyle. 

It's not the magnitude of the cheating but what the magnitude says about the person doing the cheating. It says that there is a serious lack of character and just normal human behavior that you need to operate in good faith to have a good marriage. I don't think these people have the ability to create bonds or have the same empathy level that others do. If you read the posts you can just tell, many times they just don't get what they have done on an emotional level. I feel like many of us can feel it much deeper then they do, and we don't even know their spouses. 

It's kind of the chicken or egg argument I guess. LTA an Serial cheating may not cause marriages to fail more as much as people who are able to do that don't have the stuff to be successful in marriage. Take you pick.


----------



## BluesPower

Affaircare said:


> May I point out something to you @sokillme? I personally think of marriage as a crucible. [A crucible is a ceramic or metal container in which metals or other substances may be melted or subjected to very high temperatures.]
> 
> We all come into the crucible immature or imperfect in some way, and the ups and downs of life and the normal day-to-day of an intimate relationship with another is the crucible that is supposed to mature us! I don't think people come to the crucible of marriage already ready to really be a good married person, because as kids and singles we have NO IDEA of what that takes! In the marriage, the whole idea is to learn!
> 
> Now...I think people who have had a good example in their parents or families, or people who have a natural personality that is very honest have an advantage in the crucible. They may be more likely to successfully be crushed or melted and come out of it okay. But in real life, losing children or family members, losing jobs and struggling financially, losing health--all these things very typically happen in a long, monogamous marriage, and all these things put people into the crucible and they can either be crushed/melted and try to "stay what they were" or try to "stay crushed/melted"....OR they can endure the severe trial and be forged into something new! That is the whole point OF the crucible!
> 
> Thus I think to say that some people are "better candidates" is essentially taking an attitude of superiority.


Hold on their cowgirl... Some of this is valid, and some of this is a little shaky. 

There are better candidates and there are people that are better equipped to be married than others. In this setting, they are superior. That is just kind of a fact. 

I came from a rough back ground, really rough. But I was a responsible caring man, before I ever got married. My wife, was not good marriage material, that is my fault because of my inexperience at the time, I did not really understand. She had a ton of mental issues and FOO issues and I did not catch it. 

I don't regret my children in any way, they are really great successful kids in every way. But I was the one that raised them, because I was able, and I was responsible. But I regret every second that I was married to my wife...

I, in that context was superior and far more ready for marriage than her. 

That is just my example but there are so many others.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> See what I think you guys don't take into account is the level of morality or character (or should I say lack of such) that it takes to do this stuff. Lots of people can have a bad day. They can fall off the wagon. But someone who repeatedly makes bad choices who has the wherewithal to cover it up for years. This stuff becomes a pattern, a lifestyle. Just the ability to compartmentalize means there is something in your personalty that is going to make you have issues in a relationship like marriage where it requires a level of honesty to be effective. Plus do they even have any bond with their spouse if they can do that? Not the kind that you would expect. Many times the have ulterior motives to even be in the marriage at that point.
> 
> It's like the guy who drinks and drives one time and kills someone. They may never drink again. But the guy who get's drunk every night and then one day kills someone he will probably continue to drink. Infidelity as far as I can tell works the same way. For some folks it becomes a lifestyle.
> 
> It's not the magnitude of the cheating but what the magnitude says about the person doing the cheating. It says that there is a serious lack of character and just normal human behavior that you need to operate in good faith to have a good marriage. I don't think these people have the ability to create bonds or have the same empathy level that others do. If you read the posts you can just tell, many times they just don't get what they have done on an emotional level. I feel like many of us can feel it much deeper then they do, and we don't even know their spouses.
> 
> It's kind of the chicken or egg argument I guess. LTA an Serial cheating may not cause marriages to fail more as much as people who are able to do that don't have the stuff to be successful in marriage. Take you pick.


i understand your viewpoints...but what you seem to be missing here is that this is YOUR opinion about infidelity and the people that commit adultery. Your opinion only affects you and those you have a relationship with. It is not fact...it is not necessarily even RIGHT....but it is certainly how you feel.

Your description of adulterers may be correct in some cases...and may be accurate about some people. But I don't think it is necessarily an accurate description of all adulterers. Infidelity has so many facets....there are so many compartments....and if i cant figure out how i became a cheater...you certainly cannot figure out how i did....and you certainly have no clue who i am as a person...much less the kind of relationship i have with my husband.

You seem to want to put everybody in boxes...and honestly...it is not that simple.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @sokillmeA very wise friend of mine shared with me his theory of infidelity last night, saying that he thought wayward spouses cheated because they lacked self-respect.


That's great! I hope it wasn't Quality who told you that though because then I am going to be annoyed. :laugh: I think it a broad sense this is true. Like I say the best reason not to cheat is because it's wrong and I am not that person. Same idea, your personal integrity is more important then personal gratification. 

I agree with much of what you said, but where we disagree on the dating thing ,I think it's because from my point of view the marriage is over at the point that the vows were broken. I don't care if the state recognizes it or not. It's over so the BS has no obligation to care what the WS thinks about them dating.



> So consequences I think are appropriate, but making a wayward "compete" with others is childish.


The idea of dating is not about punishing the WS or causing consequences (though it is one) it's about the BS trying to see if there is better out there for them. I should explain if I didn't they should go through with the divorce for sure before they do this. I often think that many BS have no idea what the have accepted and for how long, because there only point of reference is their spouse. Most of these folks got married young at collage age. So they have no idea what it is like to be an adult dating another adult. Or what it would be like to date someone who just has a better skill-set for a relationship. Like you admit the WS has to learn a new way of thinking. But the BS is under no obligation to stick around for that. Lots of times there is no guarantee. And I am sorry but most of the time it's a bad bet.

So the dating is really about getting a sense of what other people might have to offer. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "compete", so lets say if the WS want the chance to try again and prove that they have changed or are really working on changing then if the BS is up for it, go for it. But I think the power dynamics are just better at that point. The BS gets a sense that there whole happiness is not predicated on there WS and that relationship, and the WS gets the understanding that they can't take the BS for granted anymore. What better motivation. 

Honesty as you know my primary concern is always for the BS first, and I think once most get out and see how much better their life can be they won't want the WS anyway. So to me it's a good solution. Plus some BS are afraid to give up right away so the idea of dating at least makes it easier, for both of them, it's not so stark then. If they really have the fight to stay together after that then maybe it's meant to be. But it's really a new marriage there should be a feeling of starting something fresh. 

It's just and idea. We don't have to agree. 

One thing I will say about the whole learning a new mindset. The WS I read on SI and here whose BS stick around and help them do that are really and truly going above and beyond. I couldn't do it. But what some of these folks put up with the patience they show that is sacrificial love. Even if it doesn't work out and the WS doesn't get it, it's the BS who is providing the framework for the WS to have a better life. 

I often think about the ones where the BS just leaves. Lots of times they have nervous brake downs or there lives spiral out of control. You can tell just by reading that some of these folks would really be in trouble if it wasn't for their BS sticking it out.


----------



## MEM2020

While I have a softer view of folks who wander, I absolutely believe the rest of your post is spot on. 

It is why I believe there really are 6 love languages, and the FIRST is sacrifice. 

It is the basis for turning away from temptation, for having sex when you really didn’t start out in the mood, for ..... fill in the blank. But - at least in my world - when you do it, it feels natural and makes you happy. You aren’t doing a favor, collecting an obligation, you are just loving your partner. 






sokillme said:


> I don't think it's superiority. But then again, I know how I write so I am not going to deny I can be a bit strident. >
> 
> What I am talking about here though is the type of person who lies for years to their spouse and all the major people in their lives while the carry on an affair. Or the person who sees hookers while traveling. The ones who blow up their marriage and then throw it in their partners faces. Those people for the most part are immoral. I don't believe someone who is selfish like that for whatever reason is really capable of being marred, or having a good marriage. The two mindsets are just diametrically opposed.
> 
> Marriage or at least a good one as you know takes thinking of your spouse first. It takes a giving up of ones self. There is just too much crap like you say above that happens were if you don't think this way you are going to blow up your marriage. If infidelity is a requirement for your marriage then someone who is this immorally selfish is just not going to be able to give it to you.
> 
> So yes the spouse that has a 2 years affair is not nor were they ever a good candidate to be in a marriage. I stand by that. They shouldn't be married to anyone. The just do too much damage and are too emotionally retarded to get the magnitude and responsibility that they have to their partner. That doesn't mean that they have to always be that way forever. But up until that point they weren't and it's probably going to take a lot of work to know different.
> 
> Let me ask you at the point when you cheated on your husband that was early in your marriage right? You had come from a bad marriage where you yourself were cheated on. Honestly looking at your thinking and your actions in hindsight now, were you a good candidate to be married at that point or would it have been better if you were more mature or emotionally stable?


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i understand your viewpoints...but what you seem to be missing here is that this is YOUR opinion about infidelity and the people that commit adultery. Your opinion only affects you and those you have a relationship with. It is not fact...it is not necessarily even RIGHT....but it is certainly how you feel.
> 
> Your description of adulterers may be correct in some cases...and may be accurate about some people. But I don't think it is necessarily an accurate description of all adulterers. Infidelity has so many facets....there are so many compartments....and if i cant figure out how i became a cheater...you certainly cannot figure out how i did....and you certainly have no clue who i am as a person...much less the kind of relationship i have with my husband.
> 
> You seem to want to put everybody in boxes...and honestly...it is not that simple.


Of course it's my opinion. :yawn2: It's not fact. Sure I could be wrong. I have no doubt in some cases I am. 

When have I ever said anything about your relationship with your husband? I get the sense that you are taking these things I say personally attacking you. Mrs John Adam's, I don't believe your whole life is not about 8 days. Even I am not saying that plus it's not my place to judge you. Plus I truly believe that someone who cheated for 20 years can reform. Please try to see I am separating whether a person can be reformed from whether it is a good idea to stay married. I am just making very general statements. I don't doubt that you and your husband have had a good marriage. You seem like a good person as far as I can tell. Even still good people do bad things. 

Still an 8 day affair that you confess to is very different, then say going to Europe with your 5 year girlfriend while you wife stays home with the kids. Do you not think so? Does it not make sense that someone who confesses and realizes right away will be a better candidate for being a good spouse one day then someone who has established a kind of s second life, lied to everyone they know for years and only comes clean because there is not rock left to hide under. I mean it does to me. This seems like common sense no? In that very statement I am saying there are levels. 

What I am talking about is this



> Romans 1:24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.


I think once a person get to a the level of a LTA this is where they are. I mean if you read the WS on SI the even talk about it, the first night they cry and take showers to wash the guilt off. By 6 months they are lost completely. Whether you believe in the Bible or not I think the scripture captures what happens. So my point was once you get to that state, you have a very deep hole to climb out of and that doesn't bode well for your marriage surviving.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I confess you have completely lost me... 8 days? 

Anyway I am not taking what you say personally but I am using me as an example to you that your opinion could be wrong


----------



## sokillme

So I can see I really push you buttons, I will admit you kind of push mine. It's OK I think I did that to quite a few folks on here at first. Some of them actually like me now. @drifting on gave me a huge complement the other day and we have had deep physiological discussions about this stuff where we take very different sides. Also you need to understand that some of what I say or at least how strongly is because no one ever says this and I really feel like someone should. It's not right that these things are not talked about. At least that is how I feel about it. Finally these are general concepts they don't reflect every situation of course. The are not personal attacks on you or your decision to R. Look at how I talk to WS when they have the courage to come on here. I never attack them. I don't mince words but I don't make personal attacks. At least I think I don't. I want to help them I do not feel they are beyond forgiveness and even change. 



> First off it's possible for people to be happy living in degrading situations. It's possible to be happy in an abusive situation if you are emotionally damaged enough. Don't think that is a good thing though. Why did he stay? Is it possible he is just afraid and decided to live out the remainder of his life in a crappy situation because he thought he couldn't do better? That to me is not a happy ending but a tragedy.
> *I have no idea ...it is none of my business. They say they are happy...they appear to be happy...I believe them.*
> 
> OK so lets take your friend because this kind of encapsulates my point. You seem to be saying they stayed in the marriage and it worked out because they are happy now, and isn't that a good thing, all is well that ends well. This also seems to be the christian take, I get why because that is also how our forgiveness of our sin is supposed to work. But I just can't go there. That man lost years of his life that he will never get back to a fraud perpetrated on him. How much energy was wasted on her AP that was not put into her family? I'm sure there was a lot. This is not a happy story in any sense of the word, it's a tragedy. A robbery where the person who robbed him basically avoided the worst consequences but the people who were robbed still experienced them. It grieves me when people look at the very end where where things seem to be good now and ignore all the suffering that was perpetrated on the victims. I don't understand how anyone can see that as happy. This is my point. This is why it pushes my buttons, because I wonder if when they say this do they understand what this man has sacrificed for her happy ending. I wonder if they think about that when they talk about what a great witness it is. I wonder what he thinks deep down inside, or what other BS who are struggling with the injustice of it all feel when they hear that.
> 
> .....
> 
> Basically same answer for all of this.
> 
> ......
> 
> Where would we be if everyone just forgave cheating no matter what? Do you think there would be more or less? Personally I think how cheating is thought about in Europe is pretty much a consequence of this attitude. Everyone cheats, it's been totally normalized. Also people don't get married anymore because if keeping your vows has no consequence why even have them. The whole thing is rightly seen as a shame. I mean that is an argument people make here all the time, it's just a piece of paper. I have a hard time staying it's wrong. If someone can have two relationships for years and you still call yourself married afterwords then it really is just a piece of paper. I mean there are vows for a reason. This is the society we are moving towards, and it's partially those who are abuse but take back their abusers and in the process normalize that behavior that are doing it. And it's Christians leading the way unfortunately. I for one hope that most marriage that have infidelity in them lead to divorce. Vows need to be honored, you don't honer them by allowing your spouse to crap all over them like they don't matter.
> 
> *I am going to do my best to answer you...but it is a bit hard to follow your line of thinking. First let me make this VERY clear. I have one obligation....and that obligation is to John. I betrayed JOHN...I did not betray you or Europe or America or anybody else. I am not responsible for society...I am responsible for ME. I have held myself accountable....and i have lived my life being the very best woman, wife, mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt, that I can be. I have made mistakes. I have made bad choices. But I have also done the best I can to learn from those mistakes and choices...and to work on myself to become a better person. I work on it DAILY. I am a Christian....which means that i believe in forgiveness...but God promises forgiveness to those who admit they have sinned and have repented of that sin. The consequences of that sin remain with me the rest of my life....but i have been forgiven.
> 
> My husband and i have a wonderful relationship. We have learned a lot in the past 46 years we have been married...there are lessons I wish we had not learned...I wish there were things we had not done...but one thing i can tell you for certain and i speak for the both of us...we do not regret staying together and at the end of the day...that is all that matters.*
> 
> I don't doubt this at all. Again I am talking in a general sense. The broader question is - does R on a large scale support the institution of marriage and society in general or harm it. I say it harms it. That's really my only argument. I guess you don't really worry about that, that is a perfectly acceptable answer.
> 
> What do YOU think of these points? I'm curious?


Let's drop this because you seem like a good person and I am tired of feeling guilty because I know am upsetting you 

I would actually like to ask you questions where we are not talking about general things but I think I will just piss you off. I also would like to be able to have different takes on this stuff without you feeling like I am judging you not saying this is your fault. The only one here I judge is Quality. (just kidding).


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I confess you have completely lost me... 8 days?
> 
> Really??!! :slap:
> 
> Oh forget it.
> 
> Anyway I am not taking what you say personally but I am using me as an example to you that your opinion could be wrong
> 
> Well then in the micro you are absolutely right I could be wrong.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

inmyprime said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe for one thing, that in almost every situation, that divorce is the best choice, esp for men.
> 
> 
> 
> Especially for men? What's so special about men that they 'deserve' divorce when their spouse is cheating but women don't?
Click to expand...

I think there are lots of reasons. The emasculation aspect for one. There really is no female equivalent of cuckold. Imagining another man dumping a load of DNA into someone you call your wife is humiliating. Forget about respecting your wife, how does one respect themselves for staying? You can mask the emasculation aspect for a duty of family (staying for the kids) but it doesn't make that sting go away.

Then, there is the respect for your wife. Men, in general, value virtue in women. That's why certain terms assaulting the virtue of a woman have no Male equivalent. So, once that virtue is willingly given to another man after it was yours and yours alone, that respect is very much tarnished.

Unfortunately, in society if a man cheats, it's almost expected. If a wife cheats, the husband is also looked down upon as weak to R with a woman of such low character. No man wants to be viewed upon as weak.


----------



## oldtruck

Araucaria said:


> So now you are two cheaters married to each other.
> 
> Who would think that being the 2nd to cheat would *restore* a marriage that has been damaged or nullified by adultery?
> 
> Few on this board will go along with that fallacy.


What fallacy?

Lots of people have affairs

Lots of BS's have RA's

Lots of MH's recover their marriage.

Lots of BS's do not have RA's yet they and their WS recover.

Lots of BS's and WS's just divorce.


----------



## oldtruck

Truthseeker1 said:


> RAs are not quite the same as the original A IMO. And there are some who even say an RA is worse than the orignal affair - not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with this is many cases. In some cases the WS is so selfish or checked out that the only option is to D and never look back. I have zero sympathy for a cheater who gets betrayed - they deserve it and have earned their misery. They can talk and talk about their empathy and "getting it" but until they are ont he receiving end they never really get it. And any cheater who would not offer the same grace they are asking for is not a good candidate for R now are they? In many cases the cheater gets to cheat and keep their marriage with no real consequences. I'm not buying that they "punish themselves" and that is worse than any other punishment. My answer to that is you did a pretty good job at punishing your BS and you want me to believe you "feeling bad" is worse than what you inflicted on them. Consider me a skeptic on that one.


To state or debate which is worse a PA or a RA, and how could a BS knowing the 
pain of a PA go out and do the same and have affair is the same as debating
how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


----------



## Truthseeker1

oldtruck said:


> To state or debate which is worse a PA or a RA, and how could a BS knowing the
> pain of a PA go out and do the same and have affair is the same as debating
> how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


I don't think so Ive seen many people argue an Ra is worse and I really don't think it is. I don't buy the line how could you do it when you know the pain its caused - the WS can now carry the same issues the Bs has to. The Ws is not a sympathetic or innocent victim in this at all.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't think it depends on the type or magnitude of the affair, so much as the level of trust-breaking that was done, and the effort the WS may put into rebuilding it afterwards.


Quite often the two go hand in hand. For example a years long PA or a PA with multiple APs does tremendous damage and it crosses so many red lines. Lying and cheating for years.

Also a Ws who has an affair and stops it and does't confess is still a liar and cheater and until they do confess they are still liars. How much could they have learned from it if they are still ling and covering their a$$ for years after their little adventure is over?


----------



## Truthseeker1

RWB said:


> *On the magnitude and the lines crossed...* It does bias the chances of R. Just as the attitude of the WS, length of marriage, your age, children involved, financial implications. A good lawyer and counselor brings all this to the table. Probably the hardest decision considering the consequences ever made.
> 
> *Happiness and True R...* Maybe I fall into the "Fake it til you make it" camp. On some level I feel infidelity is a "First world problem". I agree with your assessment on happiness. However, it's always been a personal responsibility. Relying on others is short term at best and usually ends up lacking.
> 
> True Reconciliation? Divorce and Move On? Why are we still on this board years hence?


 Are you happy with your marriage? Do you feel like your WW got away with it?

What are you looking for in life? 

What i get from your posts is you have managed to deal with the pain but not much past that. Am i reading it wrong? If so please correct me.


----------



## Pepe1970

Truthseeker1 said:


> Are you happy with your marriage? Do you feel like your WW got away with it?
> 
> What are you looking for in life?
> 
> What i get from your posts is you have managed to deal with the pain but not much past that. Am i reading it wrong? If so please correct me.


I think it does not matter how happy anybody could be. Cheating always leaves a scar in your heart we take to the grave.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1

Pepe1970 said:


> I think it does not matter how happy anybody could be. Cheating always leaves a scar in your heart we take to the grave.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


Absolutely. you are correct which is why I'm cynical about R putting the marriage back together 100%. how can it after the WS acts in a depraved manner during something like a LTA.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> So I can see I really push you buttons, I will admit you kind of push mine. It's OK I think I did that to quite a few folks on here at first. Some of them actually like me now. @drifting on gave me a huge complement the other day and we have had deep physiological discussions about this stuff where we take very different sides. Also you need to understand that some of what I say or at least how strongly is because no one ever says this and I really feel like someone should. It's not right that these things are not talked about. At least that is how I feel about it. Finally these are general concepts they don't reflect every situation of course. The are not personal attacks on you or your decision to R. Look at how I talk to WS when they have the courage to come on here. I never attack them. I don't mince words but I don't make personal attacks. At least I think I don't. I want to help them I do not feel they are beyond forgiveness and even change.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's drop this because you seem like a good person and I am tired of feeling guilty because I know am upsetting you
> 
> I would actually like to ask you questions where we are not talking about general things but I think I will just piss you off. I also would like to be able to have different takes on this stuff without you feeling like I am judging you not saying this is your fault. The only one here I judge is Quality. (just kidding).


SKM...first...I have been here since 2013...I don't post often and i deleted many of my posts and threads back in the day when you could do that. Second...in order for you to push my buttons...I would have to actually care...and I don't. You seem to have a problem with Christians....and for the life of me...I am not sure why...I have not thrown my Christianity around...you asked ME if i was a christian and I answered your question. 

You do not have to agree with me...and I don't have to agree with you. Don't worry about pissing me off....I have learned a long time ago how to ignore. But let me say this....you keep saying this is not about me....HOWEVER...you ask me personal questions. I answer them....please tell me how to then not at least think you are speaking to those answers directly?

This is my bottom line....I tend to mind my own business. I offer my experience and the things I have learned in my 35 of reconciliation and my 46 years of marriage. I often stick up for the under dog. I am hard on Waywards...because they often need it. I generally don't share a lot with betrayeds....unless they are asking questions about waywards.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Diana7 said:


> Many women I know who are divorced are still alone many years later..


For a lot of women, it's no doubt by choice. :grin2:


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

oldtruck said:


> What fallacy?
> 
> Lots of people have affairs
> 
> Lots of BS's have RA's
> 
> Lots of MH's recover their marriage.
> 
> Lots of BS's do not have RA's yet they and their WS recover.
> 
> Lots of BS's and WS's just divorce.


yes...this exactly and the bottom line is...the COUPLE decides what is best for them regardless of any one else's opinions about the situation AND if they declare their marriage sound and happy...then it is up to them and they are the ones living in the relationship. AND it does not matter what anybody else thinks. SO WHY is it a topic of conversation???


----------



## RandomDude

Meh, I'd say just follow your instincts, don't miss any details and know it's not about who you trust but what you trust them to do. Don't be a doormat and don't go for fking weaklings. 

Never gone wrong so far.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have a friend...who cheated on her husband for a long time....and chump lady's philosophy would have thrown her under the bus. However...she and her husband have been in reconciliation for a long time and they are happier than they have ever been. their answers...were right for them...and at the end of the day...that's the only answers that matter.


While I agree with your theory, by the same token, that's a man with just about no self respect at all. Or he's co-dependent or lacking any kind of testicular fortitude.

When someone knowingly and purposefully deceives you for a LONG time, that's just willful, malicious behavior. Let's call a spade a spade here. For someone to do this willingly to a person for a 'long time' just says they're perfectly *fine* with what they're doing and have no problem disrespecting their spouse to the nth level as long as _they're_ benefiting from it. And she was obviously FINE with her behavior or she wouldn't have done it for a long time.

He just sounds like a welcome mat who voluntarily handed over his testicles to her *years* ago to hang from her car's rear-view mirror.


----------



## katies

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think there are lots of reasons. The emasculation aspect for one. There really is no female equivalent of cuckold. Imagining another man dumping a load of DNA into someone you call your wife is humiliating. Forget about respecting your wife, how does one respect themselves for staying? You can mask the emasculation aspect for a duty of family (staying for the kids) but it doesn't make that sting go away.
> .


How can you answer this? You're not a woman. 
I have no idea what it feels like to be emasculated. I'm not a man.
But also please don't speak for me saying that men have it worse like you know for sure, black and white. You do not.


----------



## Truthseeker1

She'sStillGotIt said:


> While I agree with your theory, by the same token, that's a man with just about no self respect at all. Or he's co-dependent or lacking any kind of testicular fortitude.
> 
> When someone knowingly and purposefully deceives you for a LONG time, that's just willful, malicious behavior. Let's call a spade a spade here. For someone to do this willingly to a person for a 'long time' just says they're perfectly *fine* with what they're doing and have no problem disrespecting their spouse to the nth level as long as _they're_ benefiting from it. And she was obviously FINE with her behavior or she wouldn't have done it for a long time.
> 
> He just sounds like a welcome mat who voluntarily handed over his testicles to her *years* ago to hang from her car's rear-view mirror.


A LTA where one spouse is shagging another person for years - I dont see whats left when they are found out. They have in effect been married to two people at the same time - what has the Bs saved exactly by remining with such a spouse who cheats for years? I've known of of a case IRL where the A went on for 20 years and reads of cases where the affair when on for 5, 10 or 15 years - what is there left after that? Just my view. People stay for all kinds of reasons but I cant see how they know they will grow old with such a person.


----------



## katies

It's like some men here are projecting their own rage against other men who stay in marriages where the wife cheats. And then desperately want to judge them and name them something for staying as if it's personal, like some collective letting down of the the male population. Who the hell cares?


----------



## Truthseeker1

katies said:


> It's like some men here are projecting their own rage against other men who stay in marriages where the wife cheats. And then desperately want to judge them and name them something for staying as if it's personal, like some collective letting down of the the male population. Who the hell cares?


Rage? It's just a discussion board. I dont sense any rage here - just opinions. 

my view is there comes a point where the Bs is responsible for their own happiness and if they stay with a WS thats their choice but their misery is also their responsibility after a certain amount of time.


----------



## Truthseeker1

katies said:


> How can you answer this? You're not a woman.
> I have no idea what it feels like to be emasculated. I'm not a man.
> But also please don't speak for me saying that men have it worse like you know for sure, black and white. You do not.


I do remember you struggling with your H 2 ONSs to your 1 ONS. I hope you both have moved forward in a positive direction.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

katies said:


> How can you answer this? You're not a woman.
> I have no idea what it feels like to be emasculated. I'm not a man.
> But also please don't speak for me saying that men have it worse like you know for sure, black and white. You do not.


Its important to note I'm only talking about physical affairs. I don't have to be a woman to know, its biology...


----------------------

A new study published in the journal Evolutionary Psychology set out to determine how people feel about the two types of infidelity.

Researchers from Kansas State University recruited 477 adults — 238 men and 239 women — and asked them to fill out several questionnaires on a variety of topics, including relationships and cheating. One such question was, “Which would distress you more: Imagining your partner enjoying passionate sexual intercourse with another person or imagining your partner forming a deep emotional attachment with another person?”

After analyzing the results, researchers came to a very clear conclusion: “Males reported that sexual infidelity scenarios were relatively more distressing than emotional infidelity scenarios, and the opposite was true of 
females,” they wrote in the study.

Interestingly, the purpose of the study was to determine which factors — be it attachment style, feelings of trust, relationship habits, etc. — would lead someone to feel one way or the other about cheating. But at the end of the study, researches discovered that the only factor that played a role was gender. Men were most upset by physical cheating and women were more upset by emotional cheating — end of story.


----------



## katies

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> ----------------------
> 
> 
> 
> Men were most upset by physical cheating and women were more upset by emotional cheating — end of story.


but theoretically, a woman could be more upset than a man. So how can you say the man has it worse?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I don’t necessarily think betrayed men feel rage toward betrayed men who reconcile... but there is a sense of I know better than you do therefore... which is what I have been trying to address. 

John chose to reconcile and whether anyone here agrees with his choice it was his decision. That’s the point. It may not have been what you would have chosen... and that’s wonderful because each of us has to decide what is best for us as individuals. 

Something was said here about my giving false hope to others about reconciliation. And I want to make a point about what I view here often. 

Many betrayed husbands dominate this forum. Many of those betrayed husbands divorced. If you have divorced and moved forward with your life.. then my question is why are you here? Someone said they are here to make sure other betrayed spouses get out of their marriages to toxic women who treat them like crap. Ok so the purpose of your posting is to encourage others to divorce. So why is it important to you to do that? 

Yet I am wrong for giving hope? 

It truly confuses me. 

So I can understand Katie’s post... there does seem to be a tone of anger ... although I don’t think there is anger. So can you tell me what it is?


----------



## katies

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do remember you struggling with your H 2 ONSs to your 1 ONS. I hope you both have moved forward in a positive direction.


we are very happy! Thank you. 
to the other giving advice to divorce right away, how on earth can you know?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> So I can understand Katie’s post... there does seem to be a tone of anger ... although I don’t think there is anger. So can you tell me what it is?


Skepticism about true R being possible in most cases after a LTA or multiple APs to name two such scenarios. That is how I read it. Not anger or rage but real skepticism of the reconciliation industrial complex. No one is saying they dont have the right to choose to R with their WS but when they do many are skeptical that they are truly happy. Especially if the continuously tell us how happy they are.


----------



## MyRevelation

katies said:


> but theoretically, a woman could be more upset than a man. So how can you say the man has it worse?


I addressed this in a post yesterday:



> Speaking of similarities, there appear to be two groups that have problems with what you're suggesting ... those who have never been cheated on (Yeah, once upon a time I thought my W and our M was something "special") and those with a pro-R agenda that are constantly trying to prove their "rule" by citing the "exceptions" in the real world.


You seem to fall into the latter group.


----------



## Truthseeker1

katies said:


> we are very happy! Thank you.
> to the other giving advice to divorce right away, how on earth can you know?


Perhaps you and your H both having cheated evened it up and neither of you cheated for years and years. I always believed a ONS is easier to forgive than a brief or LTA.

Had your H or you had an affair for 2, 5, or 10 years do you think youd be in R? Just curious.


----------



## katies

MyRevelation said:


> I addressed this in a post yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to fall into the latter group.


happily so. 
But it's just my opinion, same as yours.


----------



## MyRevelation

Feel free then to continue debating against the obvious.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

katies said:


> but theoretically, a woman could be more upset than a man. So how can you say the man has it worse?


I'm not saying men have it worse, just saying that physical affairs are harder for men to get past. Atleast that is what everything I have read suggests.


----------



## katies

Truthseeker1 said:


> Had your H or you had an affair for 2, 5, or 10 years do you think youd be in R? Just curious.


I dont' think we would have but if someone else could then I'm happy for them!


----------



## Truthseeker1

katies said:


> I dont' think we would have but if someone else could then I'm happy for them!


I think my point is many are skeptical that most can and you yourself just admitted you couldn't. Skeptics usually p!ss people off I get that.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I don’t necessarily think betrayed men feel rage toward betrayed men who reconcile... but there is a sense of I know better than you do therefore... which is what I have been trying to address.
> 
> John chose to reconcile and whether anyone here agrees with his choice it was his decision. That’s the point. It may not have been what you would have chosen... and that’s wonderful because each of us has to decide what is best for us as individuals.
> 
> Something was said here about my giving false hope to others about reconciliation. And I want to make a point about what I view here often.
> 
> Many betrayed husbands dominate this forum. Many of those betrayed husbands divorced. If you have divorced and moved forward with your life.. then my question is why are you here? Someone said they are here to make sure other betrayed spouses get out of their marriages to toxic women who treat them like crap. Ok so the purpose of your posting is to encourage others to divorce. So why is it important to you to do that?
> 
> Yet I am wrong for giving hope?
> 
> It truly confuses me.
> 
> So I can understand Katie’s post... there does seem to be a tone of anger ... although I don’t think there is anger. So can you tell me what it is?


No, you are not wrong to give hope that R is possible. 

I generally don't post on someone's thread unless its clear this guy is getting jerked around. I don't post on female infidelity threads because I can't relate.

I am one of those that divorced and moved on with life. Am I still angry? Hell Yea I am. I want to make sure nothing like that ever happens to me again. I completely zeroed out because I wasn't prepared. I choose to use the anger to light a fire under me.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I guess I tend to take people at their word and in the end it doesn’t matter what I think anyway

I am also an optimistic person ...I try to see the good. I also try not to project my own expectations or judgements on others. I try to keep it non emotional although I will admit that is hard for me to do

I think there is probably a list of things a couple needs in order to have a shot at reconciliation but that list might vary couple to couple.

I do agree with Katie in this statement... 
a couple might need to attempt reconciliation in order to even know if it is possible. Every couple is not necessarily ready to divorce immediately... and yet for some it is indeed the right thing to do. 

I think each betrayed has to decide for themselves what is best for them... without judgement or ridicule from others.

My husband is a thinker... he is analytical ... he has to process. I am emotional and compulsive. He is opinionated and sure. I am fickle... I change my mind. 

So we process things differently and respond differently. Maybe that’s why I have the observation that I do. I tend to allow people the grace to choose for themselves what they believe is the best choice for them.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I don’t necessarily think betrayed men feel rage toward betrayed men who reconcile... but there is a sense of I know better than you do therefore... which is what I have been trying to address.
> 
> John chose to reconcile and whether anyone here agrees with his choice it was his decision. That’s the point. It may not have been what you would have chosen... and that’s wonderful because each of us has to decide what is best for us as individuals.
> 
> Something was said here about my giving false hope to others about reconciliation. And I want to make a point about what I view here often.
> 
> Many betrayed husbands dominate this forum. Many of those betrayed husbands divorced. If you have divorced and moved forward with your life.. then my question is why are you here? Someone said they are here to make sure other betrayed spouses get out of their marriages to toxic women who treat them like crap. Ok so the purpose of your posting is to encourage others to divorce. So why is it important to you to do that?
> 
> Yet I am wrong for giving hope?
> 
> It truly confuses me.
> 
> So I can understand Katie’s post... there does seem to be a tone of anger ... although I don’t think there is anger. So can you tell me what it is?


If people were advocating for a repeatedly abused women to stay with her abusive husband, with the only reason being because he claims he is sorry (which he might be) and seems very contrite, I would be actively arguing against this. I would question their thinking. I think most people instinctively know that it's demeaning and not emotionally or even more so physically healthy for her to do so. She would probably give the same reasons that many BS give. The kids, finances, I love him, he says he is sorry. But none of us would say that staying is a good thing or an emotionally healthy thing to do. I would be trying to support her dignity by actively encouraging her to leave, telling her there is better for her. My advice would probably be almost exactly the same. I really so no difference when it comes to LTA or Serial cheating. Both are long term forms of abuse. It's just wrong to encourage someone to stay with their abuser or even being neutral about it. You have a responsibility to protect the innocent.

It's said many times on here and other relationship boards that infidelity is a form of abuse. It's also acknowledged now that it causes PTSD, and long term suffering many times even longer then the physical damage at the hands of physical abuse. I think most of us believe that. I have read lots of people who have gone through both who even say the cheating was worse and more painful. So if you believe that then you need to encourage people from that belief. At least for me gender has nothing to do with it. My question is if you think long term adultery is emotional abuse how can you in good conscience not advocate for separation and eventual divorce?


----------



## Adelais

hoblob said:


> I madhattered and it felt great. Boosted my confidence, felt vindicated. We weren’t married though and it was less than a month after finding out. We didn’t have a great relationship afterwards but as you say it restores some of the status quo. Won’t ever fully restore it though.





Araucaria said:


> So now you are two cheaters married to each other.
> 
> Who would think that being the 2nd to cheat would *restore* a marriage that has been damaged or nullified by adultery?
> 
> Few on this board will go along with that fallacy.





oldtruck said:


> *What fallacy?
> *
> Lots of people have affairs
> 
> Lots of BS's have RA's
> 
> Lots of MH's recover their marriage.
> 
> Lots of BS's do not have RA's yet they and their WS recover.
> 
> Lots of BS's and WS's just divorce.


The fallacy that a RA will restore what was damaged by the first A. It will create something new, whether good or bad, depending on the eye of the beholder, but it won't restore what was destroyed by the first A.


----------



## Pepe1970

Truthseeker1 said:


> Absolutely. you are correct which is why I'm cynical about R putting the marriage back together 100%. how can it after the WS acts in a depraved manner during something like a LTA.


Well, there are cases like mine. My wife and I lived like roommates for almost 15 years (married 17). We couldn't stand each other and still we manage to survive our cheating behaviors (both of us)
Now we're working very hard together and seeing good results since we decided R.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

An ra makes reconciliation more complicated

Period

However reconciliation is still possible
We are proof of that

But I can tell you from experience an ra is the wrong thing to do


----------



## Truthseeker1

Pepe1970 said:


> Well, there are cases like mine. My wife and I lived like roommates for almost 15 years (married 17). We couldn't stand each other and still we manage to survive our cheating behaviors (both of us)
> Now we're working very hard together and seeing good results since we decided R.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


But you both cheated - that is a lot different than if your wife had been cheating for 15 years while you were home with the kids or watching ESPN isn't it?


----------



## sokillme

Araucaria said:


> The fallacy that a RA will restore what was damaged by the first A. It will create something new, whether good or bad, depending on the eye of the beholder, but it won't restore what was destroyed by the first A.


In my case falling in love with someone else completely removed any lingering pain from the A I suffered. The pain came from my continuing love for the person who cheated on me. Once I loved someone else I just didn't care anymore about anything that happened with that other person. I was truly healed and moved on.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Araucaria said:


> The fallacy that a RA will restore what was damaged by the first A. It will create something new, whether good or bad, depending on the eye of the beholder, but it won't restore what was destroyed by the first A.


I don't think the goal of an RA is to restore anything. It's more about what the BS feels it will do for him/her.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> An ra makes reconciliation more complicated
> 
> Period
> 
> However reconciliation is still possible
> We are proof of that
> 
> But I can tell you from experience *an ra is the wrong thing to d*o


It depends on the Bs and what he/she needs to recover.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Yes cheating is absolutely a form of abuse. Do you believe that an abuser can get better? Do you believe an abuser can stop abusing? Do you believe an alcoholic can stop drinking? 

I made a bad choice... and I have worked very hard to overcome the repercussions of that choice. John could have divorced me.. he chose to reconcile. I abused him because I cheated. But I no longer abuse him. So then can an abuser change? 

I can certainly in good faith recommend reconciliation to those who seek it. I share the mistakes we made in our reconciliation is hopes they can avoid the same mistakes. But ultimately the decision to reconcile or divorce is theirs


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Truthseeker... it is my opinion and belief that infidelity for any reason for any excuse for any circumstance is wrong. Cheating is wrong. There is no good reason to cheat. 

And if I came to tam as a wayward and said there is a good reason I would be blasted into oblivion for making such a statement

Cheating is wrong ... period


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes cheating is absolutely a form of abuse. Do you believe that an abuser can get better? Do you believe an abuser can stop abusing? Do you believe an alcoholic can stop drinking?
> 
> I made a bad choice... and I have worked very hard to overcome the repercussions of that choice. John could have divorced me.. he chose to reconcile. I abused him because I cheated. But I no longer abuse him. So then can an abuser change?
> 
> I can certainly in good faith recommend reconciliation to those who seek it. I share the mistakes we made in our reconciliation is hopes they can avoid the same mistakes. But ultimately the decision to reconcile or divorce is theirs


MrsJA - both you and @katies has ONSs and worked your butts off to save the marriage and forgave RAs. That is a far cry from a brief or LTa of repeated encounters, repeated lies and repeated disrespect of your BS. I'm not excusing your A but there are levels of deception and depravity. I understand why you both are in R. That is why I'm careful to list the types of infidelity I'm talking about.

My list is this:

*online EA<EA<ONS<brief A<LTA or multiple APs*


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I understand your list and I might even agree with your list personally. 
But it is your list and may not be the same as someone else’s 
That’s all I am saying... we both know folks who have a different list ... and that’s ok


----------



## MEM2020

Speaking as a fellow traveler, not as a MOD. 

This post is so full of mischief, it is hard to know where to begin. 

First the use of the term abuse without qualifier. This is just so wrong. In the modern world it seems the single most powerful trend is for everyone to wear their badge of victim hood as prominently as possible. 

In that world, no word is more popular than abused. 

Marriage is by nature a much more intense experience than just about any other. 

Marriages include some amount of betrayals, neglect, disappointment and tears. And hopefully a greater amount of loyalty, engagement, love, happiness and laughter. 

The notion that wandering is the only betrayal falls into the WMD bucket - is strange to me. I know this woman - whose husband wiped out their entire net worth in their late forties. Massive financial infidelity. IMO that is so much worse. 





sokillme said:


> If people were advocating for a repeatedly abused women to stay with her abusive husband, with the only reason being because he claims he is sorry (which he might be) and seems very contrite, I would be actively arguing against this. I would question their thinking. I think most people instinctively know that it's demeaning and not emotionally or even more so physically healthy for her to do so. She would probably give the same reasons that many BS give. The kids, finances, I love him, he says he is sorry. But none of us would say that staying is a good thing or an emotionally healthy thing to do. I would be trying to support her dignity by actively encouraging her to leave, telling her there is better for her. My advice would probably be almost exactly the same. I really so no difference when it comes to LTA or Serial cheating. Both are long term forms of abuse. It's just wrong to encourage someone to stay with their abuser or even being neutral about it. You have a responsibility to protect the innocent.
> 
> It's said many times on here and other relationship boards that infidelity is a form of abuse. It's also acknowledged now that it causes PTSD, and long term suffering many times even longer then the physical damage at the hands of physical abuse. I think most of us believe that. I have read lots of people who have gone through both who even say the cheating was worse and more painful. So if you believe that then you need to encourage people from that belief. At least for me gender has nothing to do with it. My question is if you think long term adultery is emotional abuse how can you in good conscience not advocate for separation and eventual divorce?


----------



## hoblob

I think every situation is different which is a given. I think most people will understand that your own relationship will be factored into making sense of the A. While nothing you do justifies cheating/affair, the relationship status does create uncertainty and makes cheating easier. You're unhappy, you get some attention, kiss turns to date turns to sex. 
As can be seen from the thread I started, most seem to think that my non-interest in sex and emotional intimacy with my gf almost justified her cheating. I revenge cheated a month later and we've been together since for 9 years. Neither of us has strayed and we learned to communicate better. We were both young and emotionally stunted and hurt each other because we didn't know how to talk to each other. I am not naive to think it will never happen again, but we are both broken and we work hard to make sure it doesn't. I've had my chances and I have never acted upon them.

I also think often times R, in certain situations, especially with a remorseful spouse, allows you to better understand yourself. If you immediately divorce, which is warranted in many situations, it doesn't give you closure. 

And while I agree with @Truthseeker1 regarding how bad certain situations are. I think whenever you have kids with someone and you choose to cheat, it makes it exponentially worse. Because you're also hurting the children, and I say that as a child of a parent who had an affair. LTA's are especially damaging to kids since you're stealing time away from them to spend with someone else. I think a ONS is worse than lets say 4 week affair if the person involved in the ONS has a kid. But those are just my useless views. I am also biased  
At the end of the day, you have to be happy with the choice you make. I've hit a point now where I sometimes wonder why I didn't leave earlier. She turned herself around and has shown and given me much love, supported me in tough times, and has been very remorseful and shamed by her actions. Disgusted really. She's also seen me turn into a better man (and better looking man) so I think her regret and remorse has been multiplied. Mine has as well, for the way I acted and treated her early on.


----------



## Adelais

Araucaria said:


> The fallacy that a RA will restore what was damaged by the first A. It will create something new, whether good or bad, depending on the eye of the beholder, but it won't restore what was destroyed by the first A.





sokillme said:


> In my case falling in love with someone else *completely removed any lingering pain from the A I suffered.* The pain came from my continuing love for the person who cheated on me. Once I loved someone else I just didn't care anymore about anything that happened with that other person. *I was truly healed and moved on.*


skm, first I want to tell you that I appreciate you as a poster. While I do not always agree with your premise, or opinion, I appreciate that you put a lot of thought into your posts, and you are not a harasser or troll.

Please don't be offended when I say that I believe you have never completely recovered from your old girlfriend's cheating on you.

When people don't care about something, and move on, they don't think about it anymore. I can't tell you many of the things I have truly healed from, or gotten over, because I have forgotten them.

The things I have not gotten over are the ones that keep rearing their heads.

You are here regularly posting here about infidelity when your current gf or wife (sorry, I can't remember if you are married) has never cheated on you.

To me that indicates that it left a wound, or a scar that you can't forget about.


----------



## drifting on

sokillme

When you first began to post on TAM I read your posts, disagreed with some, agreed with some. As you continued to post I found myself having to think much more, you opened up a new perspective to see situations from. My respect for you is quite high, even though I don’t always agree with you. Mrs John Adams I also have a high level of respect for. I find many of her posts to be very helpful, as I do yours. 

I have thought of posting on this thread a few times, truth be told I’m just fearful of how much I have learned about infidelity. I never wanted to know anything about it, but I have. I’ll consider posting here if I can find the right words to write.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I believe we all carry scars... the difference in my scars is I can look at them now and be reminded how far We have come and what we have accomplished together. I can look at them and see the battles we have fought and won. Our scars are not beautiful and I wish we did not have them...but they have certainly diminished... we both know that they will always be there.. but the scars are not the first thing we see anymore. We see two people who fought hard together and won. When I say our marriage is better than it has ever been it is truth... not because of infidelity but in spite of it.


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## Truthseeker1

@hoblob - do you think your RA gave her a better understanding of what she had done?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Truthseeker... it is my opinion and belief that infidelity for any reason for any excuse for any circumstance is wrong. Cheating is wrong. There is no good reason to cheat.
> 
> And if I came to tam as a wayward and said there is a good reason I would be blasted into oblivion for making such a statement
> 
> Cheating is wrong ... period


In the case of an Ra the "victim" has already destroyed the marriage contract. Also the initial A sets events into motion that the WS can't control any longer. Their control was whether or not to sleep with their AP once they do that anything can happen and usually does.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I understand your list and I might even agree with your list personally.
> But it is your list and may not be the same as someone else’s
> That’s all I am saying... we both know folks who have a different list ... and that’s ok


I agree that people all respond differently to infidelity - any form of infidelity from EA to LTA. My point is that there are level of depravity for example a ONS vs. a ONS in your marital bed - different levels of disrespect dont you think?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Truthseeker I understand the whys believe me I do

It is still wrong


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Truthseeker I understand the whys believe me I do
> 
> It is still wrong


Some folks feel its justice when a WS becomes a BS.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I don't think an RA is wrong as long as you don't hide it from your spouse. After your marriage has been severed by infidelity, if you want to date a little, who is anyone, especially your wayward spouse, to judge? The high road is being completely transparent.


----------



## katies

some folks believe it's not. 
justice can still be wrong.


----------



## Truthseeker1

katies said:


> some folks believe it's not.
> justice can still be wrong.


I don't think we will ever agree on that. Some Bs need it to feel like they've balanced the scales and I wont judge them for that at all. Plus it gives the WS first hand experience of what they have done.


----------



## Truthseeker1

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think an RA is wrong as long as you don't hide it from your spouse. After your marriage has been severed by infidelity, if you want to date a little, who is anyone, especially your spouse, to judge? The high road is being completely transparent.


I do laugh at people who argue that an RA is worse. SMH. How could you if you know how much pain it will cuase? Well that's the point of an RA isn't it - so the Ws knows the pain they've caused?


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## Mrs. John Adams

Truthseeker I agree with you that there are different levels of betrayal 
And I have red lines too

But they may not be the same as yours

You are still trying to define others and their reactions by your lines

I am saying you simply can’t
All you can do is define it for yourself

Look a marriage has a 50/50 chance of making it in the best of circumstances

Infidelity decreases those odds significantly

And I can intellectually try to predict which marriages will be able to reconcile and which will not. But at the end of the day... my predictions mean nothing... because that couple I say won't make it may have the stamina and wherewithal and commitment and determination to be successful. 

I have been proven wrong on more than one occasion.

So while books and forums may have all the answers at the end of the day it is between the couple what they can or cannot achieve. 

John and I may have had better odds than others but we could just have easily failed had we both not been determined to win


----------



## hoblob

@Truthseeker1 . No, I didn't tell her about it until recently. I didn't want to shove it in her face. There were a lot of factors that went into my decision making to stick around, having cheated was one of them. Her being remorseful, and the state of our relationship at the time of the cheating. 
I acknowledged that our relationship was at a low point before the cheating, we had been fighting nonstop and talked about breaking. Much of her frustrations was the mental pain of not being touched by me. 
After the cheating,we didn't resume our old relationship. We started building a new one. I know she is a better person now. I think I am as well, but I still struggle with her actions (mostly being blindsided like that) and have caught myself from making big mistakes such as cheating again, especially when alcohol is involved. I still work on this aspect.
I also don't think RA's are bad. But it matters when it happens. Everyone is going to approach these issues differently. There is no use arguing. 

Also, to add to the magnitude of cheating. Cheating with someone best friend, the classic double betrayal, is especially cruel. Siblings as well. I mean, the list goes on. It's all horrible. It's really debating which **** smells worse.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Truthseeker I agree with you that there are different levels of betrayal
> And I have red lines too
> 
> But they may not be the same as yours
> 
> You are still trying to define others and their reactions by your lines
> 
> I am saying you simply can’t
> All you can do is define it for yourself
> 
> Look a marriage has a 50/50 chance of making it in the best of circumstances
> 
> Infidelity decreases those odds significantly
> 
> And I can intellectually try to predict which marriages will be able to reconcile and which will not. But at the end of the day... my predictions mean nothing... because that couple I say won't make it may have the stamina and wherewithal and commitment and determination to be successful.
> 
> I have been proven wrong on more than one occasion.
> 
> So while books and forums may have all the answers at the end of the day it is between the couple what they can or cannot achieve.
> 
> John and I may have had better odds than others but we could just have easily failed had we both not been determined to win


I think the red lines are pretty well agreed upon by most people - its who decides to stay or not stay is individual. An affair int he marital hoome or marital bed is one of the most disrespectful and I dont think you will find many to say its not. Whether someone stays after that is up to the person - people sty aof rmore reasons - Money. Kids, Religion. Doesn't mean they are happy it just means they have a strong stomach for sh!t sandwiches.


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## 269370

MyRevelation said:


> I addressed this in a post yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to fall into the latter group.




Here we go...’the groups’ again. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1

hoblob said:


> @Truthseeker1 . No, I didn't tell her about it until recently. I didn't want to shove it in her face. There were a lot of factors that went into my decision making to stick around, having cheated was one of them. Her being remorseful, and the state of our relationship at the time of the cheating.
> I acknowledged that our relationship was at a low point before the cheating, we had been fighting nonstop and talked about breaking. Much of her frustrations was the mental pain of not being touched by me.
> After the cheating,we didn't resume our old relationship. We started building a new one. I know she is a better person now. I think I am as well, but I still struggle with her actions (mostly being blindsided like that) and have caught myself from making big mistakes such as cheating again, especially when alcohol is involved. I still work on this aspect.


so you felt that by having an RA you balanced things a bit?


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## Mrs. John Adams

Ok two points

First wrong is wrong
An ra is wrong period

I should not have cheated on my husband... if I was going to cheat I should have divorced him.

If he wanted to have an ra he should have divorced me. I understand why he did it... I even accept my responsibility in helping him to make that decision. But it was wrong. And anyone who justifies an ra is a hypocrite plain and simple. 

Most people who cheat justify the cheating in their minds and give themselves permission. Which is exactly what a betrayed spouse does in order to have an ra. 

Second point... red lines that matter can only be drawn by individuals. Your red lines are not mine.

Johns red line changed after I cheated. Red lines are individual and while some may agree where they are drawn... they can only be determined by the people that are asked to step over them.

Whether you agree with johns red line is irrelevant


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Ok two points
> 
> First wrong is wrong
> An ra is wrong period
> 
> I should not have cheated on my husband... if I was going to cheat I should have divorced him.
> 
> If he wanted to have an ra he should have divorced me. I understand why he did it... I even accept my responsibility in helping him to make that decision. But it was wrong. And anyone who justifies an ra is a hypocrite plain and simple.
> 
> Most people who cheat justify the cheating in their minds and give themselves permission. Which is exactly what a betrayed spouse does in order to have an ra.
> 
> Second point... red lines that matter can only be drawn by individuals. Your red lines are not mine.
> 
> Johns red line changed after I cheated. Red lines are individual and while some may agree where they are drawn... they can only be determined by the people that are asked to step over them.
> 
> Whether you agree with johns red line is irrelevant


I should not have use the term red line that is personal - you are right. I mean that most people can agre some acts of infidelity are more depraved than others. Like sex with an inlaw vs a stranger. All affairs dont have the same level of disrespect or depravity. 

I think we ill have to agree to disagree about RAs. The Ws is not a sympathetic victim of an RA. People who dont just a BS for having an Ra are not hypocrites - they view it as some form of justice. I get why a Ws does not want to become a BS but guess what neither did their BS want to become a BS.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> If people were advocating for a repeatedly abused women to stay with her abusive husband, with the only reason being because he claims he is sorry (which he might be) and seems very contrite, I would be actively arguing against this. I would question their thinking. I think most people instinctively know that it's demeaning and not emotionally or even more so physically healthy for her to do so. She would probably give the same reasons that many BS give. The kids, finances, I love him, he says he is sorry. But none of us would say that staying is a good thing or an emotionally healthy thing to do. I would be trying to support her dignity by actively encouraging her to leave, telling her there is better for her. My advice would probably be almost exactly the same. I really so no difference when it comes to LTA or Serial cheating. Both are long term forms of abuse. It's just wrong to encourage someone to stay with their abuser or even being neutral about it. You have a responsibility to protect the innocent.
> 
> It's said many times on here and other relationship boards that infidelity is a form of abuse. It's also acknowledged now that it causes PTSD, and long term suffering many times even longer then the physical damage at the hands of physical abuse. I think most of us believe that. I have read lots of people who have gone through both who even say the cheating was worse and more painful. So if you believe that then you need to encourage people from that belief. At least for me gender has nothing to do with it. My question is if you think long term adultery is emotional abuse how can you in good conscience not advocate for separation and eventual divorce?




Because infidelity is not the only form of ‘abuse’ in a relationship. During the course of a marriage a lot of crap happens, a lot of baggage gets accumulated and people and life throws all kinds of **** at you but some have the strength and courage to work through this and others don’t think it is worth it. It doesn’t make one group superior over the other. It doesn’t make it right or wrong whatever people choose to do. It’s not up to us to judge them yet a lot of judgement is getting thrown around here.

It is true that some are hiding behind this ‘higher mission’ of ‘cleansing’ couples of bad morals (‘she cheated, leave that ***** you owe it to society etc’) but what I observed actually happens is that whenever a WS appears around these parts, most of the male population throw themselves at her and rip her to pieces, make her really suffer and it reads like they really enjoy this process. 

The waywards themselves do sometimes seem to want to suffer I guess because of all the guilt but my point is that the professed ‘pure’ motivations of the other posters don’t come across as all that pure to me.
There’s a lot of projection going on and like I said on a other thread, whenever a WS posts, it doesn’t help her, it helps the others because they can blow off some of their steam and frustration.

I can kind of understand this but I’m not sure they do understand what they are doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrs. John Adams

Ok truthseeker lets change it to a scenario...
John murdered a man. The mans wife then murdered John. 

I understand the retaliation but it is still murder. She has my sympathy.. but she is still responsible for her choice and her choice was still wrong. I can forgive her for killing my husband.

I hurt John and I completely understand why he had an ra and I have forgiven him. But he was still wrong. 

And if you cannot see this then yes we will have to agree to disagree


----------



## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> Speaking as a fellow traveler, not as a MOD.
> 
> This post is so full of mischief, it is hard to know where to begin.
> 
> First the use of the term abuse without qualifier. This is just so wrong. In the modern world it seems the single most powerful trend is for everyone to wear their badge of victim hood as prominently as possible.
> 
> In that world, no word is more popular than abused.
> 
> Marriage is by nature a much more intense experience than just about any other.
> 
> Marriages include some amount of betrayals, neglect, disappointment and tears. And hopefully a greater amount of loyalty, engagement, love, happiness and laughter.
> 
> The notion that wandering is the only betrayal falls into the WMD bucket - is strange to me. I know this woman - whose husband wiped out their entire net worth in their late forties. Massive financial infidelity. IMO that is so much worse.




Yep, 100% and exactly what I said before reading this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes cheating is absolutely a form of abuse. Do you believe that an abuser can get better? Do you believe an abuser can stop abusing? Do you believe an alcoholic can stop drinking?
> 
> I made a bad choice... and I have worked very hard to overcome the repercussions of that choice. John could have divorced me.. he chose to reconcile. I abused him because I cheated. But I no longer abuse him. So then can an abuser change?
> 
> I can certainly in good faith recommend reconciliation to those who seek it. I share the mistakes we made in our reconciliation is hopes they can avoid the same mistakes. But ultimately the decision to reconcile or divorce is theirs


I believe an alcoholic who crashes while driving drunk should lose his license. 

First I am talking about LTA or serial cheating here, not an affair that is very short lived where the WS confesses. In my mind this would be the same as a man who gets drunk one night loses it and hits his wife. That is a very serious thing but it's not a consistent pattern of abuse. My advice is always to make a decision on what the BS feels the quality of their life will be going forward, not past history. I think for most people it's hard to see that right away. Therefore I suggest taking a long time before really committing to R. However especially if there are no kids involved D is never a bad choice. If they are meant to be they can always remarry, but D offers the quickest path to recovery, and a much better chance at full recovery as far as I can see. So if there first thought is D I would encourage it. One thing I would never say is to make the decision on the idea that the WS is remorseful, that WS should absolutely be remorseful but that is just a basic requirement for R not a reason to. 

Now when there is a LTA or serial cheating I don't think it matters if the abuser gets better or not. There is already too much of a pattern of abuse an damage for there to ever be a healthy dynamic in my mind. Besides it's demeaning for the WS and the institute of marriage for it to continue. It needs to end and frankly the WS would really be a bad candidate to ever get married again. I would not advise anyone to ever marry someone like that. Same goes with a rapist or child abuser. People who can cause such serious harm to others without a thought to the damage they do don't merit the right to have that responsibly anymore. 

Again lets say a women has repeatedly been abused and maybe even put in the hospital by her husband. Then say he has really changed do you think it's a good idea for her to go back to such a man or do you think just the emotional history and power dynamic makes that relationship harmful to her well being? I could never in good conscience recommend anything but for her to walk away from such a toxic situation. I feel the same way about long term emotional abuse. Abuse is abuse, doesn't matter if the scars are visible or not. 

So let me ask you would you advise a women whose husband puts her in the hospital, lets say he is very sorry can going to counseling, would you stay that it's a good idea for her to take the chance to live with him again?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Ok truthseeker lets change it to a scenario...
> John murdered a man. The mans wife then murdered John.
> 
> I understand the retaliation but it is still murder. She has my sympathy.. but she is still responsible for her choice and her choice was still wrong. I can forgive her for killing my husband.
> 
> I hurt John and I completely understand why he had an ra and I have forgiven him. But he was still wrong.
> 
> And if you cannot see this then yes we will have to agree to disagree


I think we will have to agree to disagree. _I dont equate murder and infidelity_ but lets use a punch shall we? John punches her husband and then she hauls off and hits him. I dont see a problem with that.


----------



## StillSearching

Truthseeker1 said:


> I don't think we will ever agree on that. Some Bs need it to feel like they've balanced the scales and I wont judge them for that at all. Plus it gives the WS first hand experience of what they have done.


I sorry but i believe your wrong in this assessment.
The WS is not invested in the relationship like the BS, thus the experience the WS gets from the BS cheating is next to 0 pain.


----------



## Truthseeker1

StillSearching said:


> I sorry but i believe your wrong in this assessment.
> The WS is not invested in the relationship like the BS, thus the experience the WS gets from the BS cheating is next to 0 pain.


That depends on the WS. I have said it repeatedly that an RA won't work on a Ws who had an exit affair or is really checked out. There are cases where the Ws is devastated by the Ra. It does not happen every time though - you are right about that.


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## Mrs. John Adams

Well if it was a stranger I would not voice my opinion because I don’t know the whole story


If my sil cheats on my daughter I would Offer my opinion and support her in her decision. The same thing goes for my dil cheating on my son. Ultimately the decision is theirs to make.

You are asking my opinions about scenarios unrelated to infidelity to justify your own opinions. If you believe you are doing the right thing by projecting your own anger and opinions onto others about divorce then go for it. 

I disagree with you and I don’t need to validate my opinion by having your approval.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Truthseeker... in your scenario they would both be wrong and subject to charges of assault.

It is wrong... you may think it is justified but it is still wrong


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Ok two points
> 
> First wrong is wrong
> An ra is wrong period
> 
> I should not have cheated on my husband... if I was going to cheat I should have divorced him.
> 
> If he wanted to have an ra he should have divorced me. I understand why he did it... I even accept my responsibility in helping him to make that decision. But it was wrong. And anyone who justifies an ra is a hypocrite plain and simple.
> 
> Most people who cheat justify the cheating in their minds and give themselves permission. Which is exactly what a betrayed spouse does in order to have an ra.
> 
> Second point... red lines that matter can only be drawn by individuals. Your red lines are not mine.
> 
> Johns red line changed after I cheated. Red lines are individual and while some may agree where they are drawn... they can only be determined by the people that are asked to step over them.
> 
> Whether you agree with johns red line is irrelevant


I don't agree that an RA is something that you can say is always wrong. I would say it is wrong if you are actively in Reconciliation, but most people are not shortly after Dday. Infidelity is like tearing up the marriage contract. Will there be another contract, who knows? But I see the in between as a grey area where the BS can and even should explore other options. I just think its the right thing to do to tell your Wayward up front of your intentions, not because they really deserve it, just because its the right thing to do. But if you go that route, you should be ready to show them the door, if they disagree.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> Speaking as a fellow traveler, not as a MOD.
> 
> This post is so full of mischief, it is hard to know where to begin.
> 
> First the use of the term abuse without qualifier. This is just so wrong. In the modern world it seems the single most powerful trend is for everyone to wear their badge of victim hood as prominently as possible.
> 
> In that world, no word is more popular than abused.
> 
> Marriage is by nature a much more intense experience than just about any other.
> 
> Marriages include some amount of betrayals, neglect, disappointment and tears. And hopefully a greater amount of loyalty, engagement, love, happiness and laughter.
> 
> The notion that wandering is the only betrayal falls into the WMD bucket - is strange to me. I know this woman - whose husband wiped out their entire net worth in their late forties. Massive financial infidelity. IMO that is so much worse.


First of all your contention is because it happens in lots of marriage it's not abuse? Here is the oxford definition of abuse. You would be hard pressed to say that adultery doesn't fit in this definition. _"Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." - "Use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm." _ come to mind.

Also one form of abuse doesn't negate another. Of course there are levels. Finally if you don't like the thread don't read it.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> First of all your contention is because it happens in lots of marriage it's not abuse? Here is the oxford definition of abuse. You would be hard pressed to say that adultery doesn't fit in this definition. _"Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." - "Use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm." _ come to mind.
> 
> Also one form of abuse doesn't negate another. Of course there are levels. Finally if you don't like the thread don't read it.


Yes, I've never heard anyone claim infidelity is not abuse. I've heard rape victims say that their husband cheating on them was worse than being raped. I've heard people saying they were in a physically abusive relationship, that they'd prefer getting beaten to being betrayed through infidelity. Unless you experience it, you probably don't understand.


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## Mrs. John Adams

Upside down ... I think perhaps your definition and my definition of an ra are different. If a wayward cheats and the couple then separates and there has been no reconciliation discussed and the betrayed spouse has an affair and then later the wayward and the betrayed get back together. That’s a whole different kind of ballgame. That might be called an ra ... but there was no agreement in the separation to remain celibate. There was no commitment made to each other to try to redeem the marriage.

My husband chose reconciliation.. two years later he went behind my back and had an affair. No he did not have intercourse... but he still cheated. I understand why he cheated and I am accountable for his mindset. But the choice to cheat is on him and it was just as wrong as my cheating. 

You can not justify his affair anymore than you can justify mine.


----------



## sokillme

Araucaria said:


> skm, first I want to tell you that I appreciate you as a poster. While I do not always agree with your premise, or opinion, I appreciate that you put a lot of thought into your posts, and you are not a harasser or troll.
> 
> Please don't be offended when I say that I believe you have never completely recovered from your old girlfriend's cheating on you.
> 
> When people don't care about something, and move on, they don't think about it anymore. I can't tell you many of the things I have truly healed from, or gotten over, because I have forgotten them.
> 
> The things I have not gotten over are the ones that keep rearing their heads.
> 
> You are here regularly posting here about infidelity when your current gf or wife (sorry, I can't remember if you are married) has never cheated on you.
> 
> To me that indicates that it left a wound, or a scar that you can't forget about.


This is true but it's more because I remember how painful it was. I also think my fathers repeated infidelity contributes to my insight on this. The actions are really horrible and life changing. Finally unfortunately I've had the pain of watching someone I am close with continue to live with the after effects and recovery of a rape. I have seen how similar the trauma is, this crystallized my opinion on how what a truly terrible a thing it is to do to a person.

So I have no quarrel with the idea that it did change my life in a profound way and shape my opinion of all of this, even my motive. I will however say I no longer feel pain from the experience. There are no flashbacks or sadness at the actions of my ex or even my father. I see myself mores like someone who was a victim of abuse who now speaks to other victims about recovery. Like other trauma victims do. 

I am passionate about it, but I am passionate about lots of my opinions. Want to talk about singers, or music in the 70's? Who was the greatest QB of all time. Why the two party political system creates an unfortunate dysfunctional government? I am going to be just as annoyingly strident. I am just an ass like that. Plus I love a good contentious argument as long as there is nothing personal involved and no personal attacks.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Upside down ... I think perhaps your definition and my definition of an ra are different. If a wayward cheats and the couple then separates and there has been no reconciliation discussed and the betrayed spouse has an affair and then later the wayward and the betrayed get back together. That’s a whole different kind of ballgame. That might be called an ra ... but there was no agreement in the separation to remain celibate. There was no commitment made to each other to try to redeem the marriage.
> 
> My husband chose reconciliation.. two years later he went behind my back and had an affair. No he did not have intercourse... but he still cheated. I understand why he cheated and I am accountable for his mindset. But the choice to cheat is on him and it was just as wrong as my cheating.
> 
> You can not justify his affair anymore than you can justify mine.


I don't think they necessary have to separate. Its kind of that Limbo area where you aren't in reconciliation and you haven't filed divorce yet. You are probably not sure what you are going to do, kind of just weighing your options. For example, someone once said they would have divorced had they not 'explored their options' after Dday. Whether it was for revenge or restoring some self-confidence/respect, whatever the case, they needed it.

And I can certainly justify his affair, because yours came first.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are asking my opinions about scenarios unrelated to infidelity to justify your own opinions. If you believe you are doing the right thing by projecting your own anger and opinions onto others about divorce then go for it.


Kind of like - "John murdered a man. The mans wife then murdered John." in relation to RA?



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I disagree with you and I don’t need to validate my opinion by having your approval.


I don't expect you to.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't agree that an RA is something that you can say is always wrong. I would say it is wrong if you are actively in Reconciliation, but most people are not shortly after Dday. Infidelity is like tearing up the marriage contract. Will there be another contract, who knows? But I see the in between as a grey area where the BS can and even should explore other options. I just think its the right thing to do to tell your Wayward up front of your intentions, not because they really deserve it, just because its the right thing to do. But if you go that route, you should be ready to show them the door, if they disagree.


I know that Quality is SO PISSED that there are actually 2 me's now on this site. Though I would say that the an RA is just a bad idea, and you should divorce or actively start divorce proceedings (like moving into a different place. Be in the court system) first if you are going to date. One reason is to keep yourself above reproach. 

If you do commit to R then you should commit to R which means no cheating. R in good faith. 

Where did you come from man? LS?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

If you justify his choice to cheat then let’s discuss the definition of cheating. 

There was a poster here who justified his cheating because his wife denied him sex. In his opinion his wife had cheated on him by breaking their wedding vows by not having sex with him. 

So her denying him sex was cheating therefore he is justified to have an affair and she cheated first.

Another poster here was married to a man that spent all of their money. He said she cheated on him because she spent their money behind his back. So he had an affair. He justified his affair because his wife cheated first. 

We can validate bad choices all day long... infidelity is wrong and it cannot be justified.


----------



## Truthseeker1

@Mrs. John Adams in the middle of this debate i'd like to stop and thank you for engaging and providing your POV.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Skm... I am not trying to validate inappropriate behavior 

You are not trying to validate inappropriate behavior

You are I are discussing recommending reconciliation and divorce on a forum

Truthseeker and I are discussing infidelity 
I believe all infidelity is wrong. He believes a revenge affair is justified


You and I are not telling people it is ok to cheat


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think they necessary have to separate. Its kind of that Limbo area where you aren't in reconciliation and you haven't filed divorce yet. You are probably not sure what you are going to do, kind of just weighing your options. For example, someone once said they would have divorced had they not 'explored their options' after Dday. Whether it was for revenge or restoring some self-confidence/respect, whatever the case, they needed it.
> 
> And I can certainly justify his affair, because yours came first.


Do you tell you WS that you are going to date, open the marriage. See I still have a problem with the lying even if I believe you are not beholden to a contract that has been nullified.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Truthseeker... I know you missed our debates!!! Lol

And I will forever be grateful to you for your kindness and respect 

You helped John I won’t ever forget that


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm... I am not trying to validate inappropriate behavior
> 
> You are not trying to validate inappropriate behavior
> 
> You are I are discussing recommending reconciliation and divorce on a forum
> 
> Truthseeker and I are discussing infidelity
> I believe all infidelity is wrong. He believes a revenge affair is justified
> 
> 
> You and I are not telling people it is ok to cheat


Actively encouraging someone to stay with a person who has *grossly* abused them is inappropriate behavior. I am trying to invalidate it.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Truthseeker... I know you missed our debates!!! Lol
> 
> And I will forever be grateful to you for your kindness and respect
> 
> You helped John I won’t ever forget that


and i understand why he decided to R with you. i enjoy our ability to disagree civilly. you NEVER blamed john for your A - EVER. You didnt list how miserable you were before you had your A or anything like that. You also worked for decades on your marriage. I dont have a problem with you. And I think what gets lost is the type of As i'm talking about - LTAs, multiple APs etc. I try to specify when I remember because there are several folks here - yourself included that I do not want to offend. I dont lump everyone in the same pile when it comes to infidelity. I understand and applaud R in some cases and dont get it in others.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Skm I don’t think anyone here has encouraged anyone else to stay together in a horribly abusive relationship

I certainly know I have not 

I may not say anything...I don’t have a mission to go in every thread and voice my opinion


----------



## personofinterest

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, I've never heard anyone claim infidelity is not abuse. I've heard rape victims say that their husband cheating on them was worse than being raped. I've heard people saying they were in a physically abusive relationship, that they'd prefer getting beaten to being betrayed through infidelity. Unless you experience it, you probably don't understand.


Ya...I've heard this too. From one specific place. That is also where a lot of "YOU must apply MY opinion or you are immoral" crap comes from too.

Sorry. I don't respect anyone who would rather lose their child than be cheated on.


----------



## MEM2020

So,
1. ALL emotionally deep marriages have at least occasional instances of cruelty - be it overt or some type of neglect. 
2. Therefore all marriages can be labeled abusive, and if you do some research the most popular explicit reason given for divorce has become - it was an abusive marriage. This is the go to move for folks who don’t want to leave it at: irreconcilable differences
3. I understand why wandering is considered a marital WMD, I merely happen to see it as one of many. And I see it as ranging from a moment of weakness to a pattern of choices and deception over time.

Humor an old man with a fondness for analytics. If I was to score wandering from 0-100, first I categorize the injuries/risks I’m exposing my partner to:
1. Surprise factor: This ranges from very low - one wanderer in a sexless marriage told his wife (before wandering). Your sex life may be over, but mine isn’t. This factor is highly correlated to the health of the marriage. The happier WE are, the more stunned I am by your betrayal.
2. Biohazard: Having unsafe sex with a third party - especially a third party about whom you know very little - exposes the betrayed to all sorts of nasty pathogens.
3. Financial exposure: If you are the sole breadwinner with minimal savings living at or beyond your means and you are in a small town with one big employer and you are sleeping with a direct report - you are putting the whole family in harms way financially.
4. Deception: If the affair is based on an ever growing body of lies and you are literally gaslighting your partner
5. Social group damage: If everyone but you knew about it - and people thought you stupid for not noticing. 

What did I miss?

Alternatively - financial infidelity:
1. Your proximity to retirement at the point of discovery/maximum damage.
2. The number of years required to recover from the damage.

Give you a real world example. M2 fell in love with Dan back in 2011. Right on the ragged edge of jumping into bed with him. Confessed the whole thing 6 months after they stopped working together. Claims they never slept together. I believe her since the confession itself was entirely voluntary. That said - if I had to choose between her having had safe sex with Dan for a few months vs wiping us out financially, it is an easy if painful choice. Kids are now college grads with no debt. If she had wiped us out, they would all have a lot of school debt. And I could never retire. Just saying. 






sokillme said:


> First of all your contention is because it happens in lots of marriage it's not abuse? Here is the oxford definition of abuse. You would be hard pressed to say that adultery doesn't fit in this definition. _"Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." - "Use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm." _ come to mind.
> 
> Also one form of abuse doesn't negate another. Of course there are levels. Finally if you don't like the thread don't read it.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> I know that Quality is SO PISSED that there are actually 2 me's now on this site. Though I would say that the an RA is just a bad idea, and you should divorce or actively start divorce proceedings (like moving into a different place. Be in the court system) first if you are going to date. One reason is to keep yourself above reproach.
> 
> If you do commit to R then you should commit to R which means no cheating. R in good faith.
> 
> Where did you come from man? LS?


I agree divorce is preferred. If you are relatively young and no kids, divorce is the best option. But maybe if you can avoid the financial headache of divorce in your later years and/or a broken home for the kids, maybe it is worth a shot for some people. Just a thought.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Mrs. John Adams said:


> If you justify his choice to cheat then let’s discuss the definition of cheating.
> 
> There was a poster here who justified his cheating because his wife denied him sex. In his opinion his wife had cheated on him by breaking their wedding vows by not having sex with him.
> 
> So her denying him sex was cheating therefore he is justified to have an affair and she cheated first.
> 
> Another poster here was married to a man that spent all of their money. He said she cheated on him because she spent their money behind his back. So he had an affair. He justified his affair because his wife cheated first.
> 
> We can validate bad choices all day long... infidelity is wrong and it cannot be justified.


Those are all valid points, but none of those are even close to the deathnail of infidelity. 

If you start spending all our money, then you address that by separate bank accounts and/or divorce.

If your wife is denying your sex, you step up your game/handle your own business/or divorce.

If your wife cheats on you, you can become a **** detective/ cheat on her back or get a divorce. There maybe a good reason for each choice at that point.

I'm all for an eye for an eye. Not an eye for a leg. If that makes sense.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> Do you tell you WS that you are going to date, open the marriage. See I still have a problem with the lying even if I believe you are not beholden to a contract that has been nullified.


Yes, an RA will never level the playing field completely, that's something every BS must come to terms with if they stay. But I think it levels it more than GPS'ing their every movement, not trusting them take their phone to the restroom or in other words monitoring them like they are a teenage girl. One lady took away her husband's car and drove him to and from work every day. Who has time for that? You can't tell me that is the high road. Maybe the RA doesn't solve anything, but it gives them a taste of their own medicine, and balances things a little bit anyways, who knows, it worked for some.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, an RA will never level the playing field completely, that's something every BS must come to terms with if they stay. But I think it levels it more than GPS'ing their every movement, not trusting them take their phone to the restroom or in other words monitoring them like they are a teenage girl. One lady took away her husband's car and drove him to and from work every day. Who has time for that? You can't tell me that is the high road. Maybe the RA doesn't solve anything, but it gives them a taste of their own medicine, and balances things a little bit anyways, who knows, it worked for some.


I really don't believe they can get a taste of their own medicine because I don't believe in most cases they have the depth to even feel the betrayal that way. Remember these are people who don't really think of loyalty as anything of value, also for lots of them sex is just something you do with someone you desire, there is not sacredness to it. They would only see it as something that was done to them, but not something that was lost like a healthy person would. Maybe years later with lots of therapy, but most don't do that. I think the only thing that can positively come out of it is it provides a sense of justice for some BS, and it can restore the feeling of being valued again. However I just don't think those feelings in the end will be worth the other complications it creates or the loss of honor. The honor one would be the biggest one to me.

Besides all that, you can have all those feelings if you divorce and date again. Let your WS try to regain your affection if they are determined to do so. But maybe even if they are trying their hardest there will be someone who doesn't have all that baggage and is just a better choice. OR maybe it will weed out all the WS who are just giving lip service to the whole, I will do whatever it takes. It's a good test too.


----------



## hoblob

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, an RA will never level the playing field completely, that's something every BS must come to terms with if they stay. But I think it levels it more than GPS'ing their every movement, not trusting them take their phone to the restroom or in other words monitoring them like they are a teenage girl. One lady took away her husband's car and drove him to and from work every day. Who has time for that? You can't tell me that is the high road. Maybe the RA doesn't solve anything, but it gives them a taste of their own medicine, and balances things a little bit anyways, who knows, it worked for some.


You can announce a break or separation for a period of time. Date, screw around, or whatever. If your SO really wants you back after screwing up, they won't date and they will wait for you to clear your head. It can work, but often times the BS is worried about losing the WS so they won't do that.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

MEM2020 said:


> So,
> 1. ALL emotionally deep marriages have at least occasional instances of cruelty - be it overt or some type of neglect.
> 2. Therefore all marriages can be labeled abusive, and if you do some research the most popular explicit reason given for divorce has become - it was an abusive marriage. This is the go to move for folks who don’t want to leave it at: irreconcilable differences
> 3. I understand why wandering is considered a marital WMD, I merely happen to see it as one of many. And I see it as ranging from a moment of weakness to a pattern of choices and deception over time.
> 
> Humor an old man with a fondness for analytics. If I was to score wandering from 0-100, first I categorize the injuries/risks I’m exposing my partner to:
> 1. Surprise factor: This ranges from very low - one wanderer in a sexless marriage told his wife (before wandering). Your sex life may be over, but mine isn’t. This factor is highly correlated to the health of the marriage. The happier WE are, the more stunned I am by your betrayal.
> 2. Biohazard: Having unsafe sex with a third party - especially a third party about whom you know very little - exposes the betrayed to all sorts of nasty pathogens.
> 3. Financial exposure: If you are the sole breadwinner with minimal savings living at or beyond your means and you are in a small town with one big employer and you are sleeping with a direct report - you are putting the whole family in harms way financially.
> 4. Deception: If the affair is based on an ever growing body of lies and you are literally gaslighting your partner
> 5. Social group damage: If everyone but you knew about it - and people thought you stupid for not noticing.
> 
> What did I miss?
> 
> Alternatively - financial infidelity:
> 1. Your proximity to retirement at the point of discovery/maximum damage.
> 2. The number of years required to recover from the damage.
> 
> Give you a real world example. M2 fell in love with Dan back in 2011. Right on the ragged edge of jumping into bed with him. Confessed the whole thing 6 months after they stopped working together. Claims they never slept together. I believe her since the confession itself was entirely voluntary. That said - if I had to choose between her having had safe sex with Dan for a few months vs wiping us out financially, it is an easy if painful choice. Kids are now college grads with no debt. If she had wiped us out, they would all have a lot of school debt. And I could never retire. Just saying.


just want to say..this is a great post and i agree 100%


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I agree divorce is preferred. If you are relatively young and no kids, divorce is the best option. But maybe if you can avoid the financial headache of divorce in your later years and/or a broken home for the kids, maybe it is worth a shot for some people. Just a thought.


I absolutely agree with this...if there are no children...cut your losses and move on


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Those are all valid points, but none of those are even close to the deathnail of infidelity.
> 
> If you start spending all our money, then you address that by separate bank accounts and/or divorce.
> 
> If your wife is denying your sex, you step up your game/handle your own business/or divorce.
> 
> If your wife cheats on you, you can become a **** detective/ cheat on her back or get a divorce. There maybe a good reason for each choice at that point.
> 
> I'm all for an eye for an eye. Not an eye for a leg. If that makes sense.


I agree but i wanted you to see that when you start validating infidelity...how people can validate ANYTHING to be cheating


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, an RA will never level the playing field completely, that's something every BS must come to terms with if they stay. But I think it levels it more than GPS'ing their every movement, not trusting them take their phone to the restroom or in other words monitoring them like they are a teenage girl. One lady took away her husband's car and drove him to and from work every day. Who has time for that? You can't tell me that is the high road. Maybe the RA doesn't solve anything, but it gives them a taste of their own medicine, and balances things a little bit anyways, who knows, it worked for some.


leveling the playing field is a dangerous place to go....John was not trying to level the playing field...and if tit for tat becomes the goal..you may as well divorce and not even attempt reconciliation. Case in point...Katies husband. In his mind he has validated his cheating...and he has kept score and gone tit for tat. Guess what...you will never get even....and if this is your mindset...you are not ready to try to reconcile...and you most likely will never understand true remorse or forgiveness. Reconciliation does not mean settling the score...it means working toward each other...putting the needs of the other one first...and working toward the same goal.....


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> I really don't believe they can get a taste of their own medicine because I don't believe in most cases they have the depth to even feel the betrayal that way. Remember these are people who don't really think of loyalty as anything of value, also for lots of them sex is just something you do with someone you desire, there is not sacredness to it. They would only see it as something that was done to them, but not something that was lost like a healthy person would. Maybe years later with lots of therapy, but most don't do that. I think the only thing that can positively come out of it is it provides a sense of justice for some BS, and it can restore the feeling of being valued again. However I just don't think those feelings in the end will be worth the other complications it creates or the loss of honor. The honor one would be the biggest one to me.
> 
> Besides all that, you can have all those feelings if you divorce and date again. Let your WS try to regain your affection if they are determined to do so. But maybe even if they are trying their hardest there will be someone who doesn't have all that baggage and is just a better choice. OR maybe it will weed out all the WS who are just giving lip service to the whole, I will do whatever it takes. It's a good test too.


if a wayward understands true remorse...they will CERTAINLY understand the depth of the hurt and betrayal...you are making statements about which you have absolutely no knowledge.


----------



## MEM2020

Proving my point. You can do just about anything crummy to a partner and still be a good ‘person’. 

But - if you do this one thing - you are a bad person. Can’t feel remorse. 

Totally ludicrous. 

There are many sexless marriages where I don’t blame the LD person at all based on their description of the HD’s behavior. 
And other sexless marriages where I consider the LD a true parasite. 

It sort of depends. Same with wanderers. 





sokillme said:


> I really don't believe they can get a taste of their own medicine because I don't believe in most cases they have the depth to even feel the betrayal that way. Remember these are people who don't really think of loyalty as anything of value, also for lots of them sex is just something you do with someone you desire, there is not sacredness to it. They would only see it as something that was done to them, but not something that was lost like a healthy person would. Maybe years later with lots of therapy, but most don't do that. I think the only thing that can positively come out of it is it provides a sense of justice for some BS, and it can restore the feeling of being valued again. However I just don't think those feelings in the end will be worth the other complications it creates or the loss of honor. The honor one would be the biggest one to me.
> 
> Besides all that, you can have all those feelings if you divorce and date again. Let your WS try to regain your affection if they are determined to do so. But maybe even if they are trying their hardest there will be someone who doesn't have all that baggage and is just a better choice. OR maybe it will weed out all the WS who are just giving lip service to the whole, I will do whatever it takes. It's a good test too.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

MEM2020 said:


> Proving my point. You can do just about anything crummy to a partner and still be a good ‘person’.
> 
> But - if you do this one thing - you are a bad person. Can’t feel remorse.
> 
> Totally ludicrous.
> 
> There are many sexless marriages where I don’t blame the LD person at all based on their description of the HD’s behavior.
> And other sexless marriages where I consider the LD a true parasite.
> 
> It sort of depends. Same with wanderers.


Mem...I will be the first to confess...understanding true remorse is difficult. Remorse is much more than being sorry...or having regret. Remorse is not only putting yourself inside someone else's pain...it is an action. when i finally understood it...I became obsessed with doing everything i could to PROVE i got it....and i wanted to make sure that i did everything i could to lift that pain i placed on my husband onto myself. I am sure he got tired of hearing are you ok...is there anything you need? is there anything i can do? 

Anyway...suffice to say...he knows i know...he knows i am sorry it took me so long to "get it" and he knows I will do anything he needs to help him feel safe. 

It was like a lightbulb went off inside of my heart...and i could not do enough. If I can help one wayward to get there faster than i did....if i can help one betrayed to understand that it takes time...don't give up....then all the forum "stuff" i have put up with all of these years...is worth it.

Some betrayed spouses are so full of bitterness...and i UNDERSTAND that...that they prejudge all waywards to be the same...and i am here to say...we are not. I screwed up...I know that....but I love my husband very much and I would do anything he needs to heal..including walking away. That's a hard concept to understand. Loving someone more than you love yourself...especially for a wayward who put themselves above all others. 


Anyway...love your insight...


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> if a wayward understands true remorse...they will CERTAINLY understand the depth of the hurt and betrayal...you are making statements about which you have absolutely no knowledge.


I'm stating my opinion from reading their words. Maybe some, but usually it takes a lot of work. Truth is if they understood the hurt they wouldn't have done it in the first place. So usually there is a learning process that has to take place to get there. Even the SI the common statement by WS and BS alike is a WS will never really understand a WS pain unless they go through it. Personally I think most WS suffer from a severe lack of empathy.

I could point to some prominent posters on SI who I think are very remorseful but when I read their posts I am struck by how self focused they are, this is very common. Not surprised but it's just they don't get it. It just requires a total brain rewire where they are not the center of their universe. The empathy part is just not there. At least that is how they read to me and this seems very consistent. 

You say yourself it took years for you to get it. Until you experience it you never really will get it, not in the same visceral way. I don't think that means you can be remorseful though and have that remorse be very sincere. 

Let me ask you. What do you think you husband's pain was like when he found out you cheated?


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> I don't think it's superiority. But then again, I know how I write so I am not going to deny I can be a bit strident. >
> 
> What I am talking about here though is the type of person who lies for years to their spouse and all the major people in their lives while the carry on an affair. Or the person who sees hookers while traveling. The ones who blow up their marriage and then throw it in their partners faces. Those people for the most part are immoral. I don't believe someone who is selfish like that for whatever reason is really capable of being marred, or having a good marriage. The two mindsets are just diametrically opposed.
> 
> Marriage or at least a good one as you know takes thinking of your spouse first. It takes a giving up of ones self. There is just too much crap like you say above that happens were if you don't think this way you are going to blow up your marriage. If infidelity is a requirement for your marriage then someone who is this immorally selfish is just not going to be able to give it to you.
> 
> So yes the spouse that has a 2 years affair is not nor were they ever a good candidate to be in a marriage. I stand by that. They shouldn't be married to anyone. The just do too much damage and are too emotionally retarded to get the magnitude and responsibility that they have to their partner. That doesn't mean that they have to always be that way forever. But up until that point they weren't and it's probably going to take a lot of work to know different.


Is a child a good candidate for marriage? Probably not--they don't have the tools yet to deal with something so huge in a healthy way. Will they EVER be a good candidate for marriage?--yeah. When they mature some. 

Is a teenager a good candidate for marriage? Teens can be fairly self-focused and may or may not have the tools yet, although they sure THINK they do! LOL Will they EVER be a good candidate for marriage?--yeah. When they mature some. 

Is a gamer, partying 20-something a good candidate for marriage? Hey greeks in college may not have the dedication and commitment yet to be really good at marriage yet. Will they EVER be a good candidate for marriage?--yeah. When they mature some. 

At what age does someone become "a good candidate for marriage"? At what maturity level is someone "a good candidate for marriage"? What happens when someone who's a good candidate faces something devastating that they've never dealt with before and they don't do a good job coping--are they now a bad candidate for marriage? What about the person who's a good candidate for marriage who has a mental health emergency? A crisis? A chemical imbalance in their brain due to a health issue? Now are they a bad candidate for marriage?

Can you see why I say this is an attitude of superiority? It's reasonable to suspect that in the course of 60+/- years with someone (getting married in the 20's and dying in the 80's) that at some point there will be a medical emergency, a death, a crisis of faith, or some other trauma that will SHAKE even good candidates and they may (or may not) cope well. That is a portion of what marriage is for people: a place to know and be known intimately, to be loved almost inspite of yourself, and to have a safe place to grow and mature as a person. 

I don't advocate using infidelity as a means to mature--that is crazy-talk--but I do advocate stopping the "Betrayed Spouses are Superior because we are good candidates for marriage and you're not" attitude. I am a very good candidate for marriage because I am an imperfect human, and when I do the wrong thing I LEARN FROM IT and do the right thing. 



> Let me ask you at the point when you cheated on your husband that was early in your marriage right? You had come from a bad marriage where you yourself were cheated on. Honestly looking at your thinking and your actions in hindsight now, were you a good candidate to be married at that point or would it have been better if you were more mature or emotionally stable?


It was early in my marriage, and we had just lost a child and found out we were infertile...and we both ADORED children. It knocked me to my knees and I felt like my purpose as a woman (to produce babies) was ripped from me. From what I NOW know from Dear Hubby, he felt like he was no man at all if he couldn't father a child. But at the time, we did not know what we did not know. I think I was a good candidate for marriage because after my divorce, I spent five years learning about what abusive relationships were, learning about personality types and which type * I * was and what went well with me (which were natural matches), learning about what healthy love looked like and how to do it, etc. I am a person who does enjoy sharing life with another and spent years becoming a better version of myself so I could be a good candidate. I knew I didn't want a player, a flirt, an angry man, a yeller, a guy who bought sex with dinner, etc. and I knew I did want someone peaceful, who loved children and loved God, who was kind-hearted and laughted easily, who was smart as a whip, and who benefitted from my presence. SURELY all those things described and describe Dear Hubby! And thus, I was a good candidate and he was a good candidate...in our early 40's we knew what we knew. 

We did not know what we didn't know. I would have NEVER guessed I would ever cheat. Had you asked me, after all the pain of being cheated on and all the years of learning, I would have spoken EXACTLY LIKE YOU. Exactly...to the letter almost. Not me! I'd never...! I'm better than those who do that! But what I didn't count on was losing a child. I had never had that happen so there was no way I could tell if I would be a good candidate for "dealing with the death of a child" or not--and losing a child, never being able to have another, and Dear Hubby distancing right then...that was my perfect storm. 

I believe I was a good candidate then, and when life threw me a hard curve, I did not choose well. But I did stop, I did learn, and now I'm an even better candidate because I dare to look at my own self and say "Wow I am capable of inflicting that kind of damage. I have to guard my own self! I have to guard those I love against what I sorrow to know I could do if I'm not careful! I have to guard the ones I have vowed to protect!" 

Now, can you say that?


----------



## Affaircare

BluesPower said:


> Hold on their cowgirl... Some of this is valid, and some of this is a little shaky.
> 
> There are better candidates and there are people that are better equipped to be married than others. In this setting, they are superior. That is just kind of a fact.
> 
> I came from a rough back ground, really rough. But I was a responsible caring man, before I ever got married. My wife, was not good marriage material, that is my fault because of my inexperience at the time, I did not really understand. She had a ton of mental issues and FOO issues and I did not catch it.
> 
> I don't regret my children in any way, they are really great successful kids in every way. But I was the one that raised them, because I was able, and I was responsible. But I regret every second that I was married to my wife...
> 
> I, in that context was superior and far more ready for marriage than her.


 @BluesPower, that statement may very well have been true in the past during the time you were married. However, we don't know what has or has not happened in her heart or mind since then, and she's not here so we can't hear her thoughts or feelings. 

All we can say is that during the time you two were married, you were BETTER EQUIPPED to be married and a father than she was. Now, she may still be unequipped...or she may have learned some tools to do better! And if not her, I guess the way I see it is that after being a bad spouse, people can go to counseling or support groups or read books, etc. and become better at it. (Of course, they also can ignore it and remain bad spouses--and many do because it's easier). 

My point being that to say that for the rest of your life and her life that you are a good candidate for marriage, and she is a bad candidate for marriage is just not accurate. She may be a fine candidate for someone who's personality type is closer to hers, who has similar "interests" (even if the interests are "partying"), or who fights like her or is irresponsible like her. It would be a messy marriage but hey--not your circus, not your monkeys. Some people truly are polyamorous or swing, and that may not be YOUR morality (or considered moral by major religions) but if that is between them, then it doesn't involve you and may be completely acceptable in their marriage! 

Now, just to be clear, I PERSONALLY think that commitment, transparent honesty, dedication and responsibility are the cornerstones of mature, healthy love. But I'm open-minded enough to say "It is not my job to put MY monogamous morality onto another." Further, I honestly don't look at all waywards as "bad candidates"--I see most of them as thinking inaccurately and that some (not all, but some) would and could think more accurately if they were shown the error of their ways and where they go off track. Many do not want to hear that and close their hearts--but some hear it and suddenly see where their justification is off track and where they went off the rails. And those folks are the ones who most likely were good candidates (or at least okay candidates) who just need to grow to be better candidates. I think of a wayward with compassion for a fellow human being who is not thinking clearly. I think of a betrayed with compassion for a fellow human being who is suffering the deepest pain.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> Proving my point. You can do just about anything crummy to a partner and still be a good ‘person’.
> 
> But - if you do this one thing - you are a bad person. Can’t feel remorse.
> 
> Totally ludicrous.
> 
> There are many sexless marriages where I don’t blame the LD person at all based on their description of the HD’s behavior.
> And other sexless marriages where I consider the LD a true parasite.
> 
> It sort of depends. Same with wanderers.


Did I say anything about remorse.



> I don't believe in most cases they have the depth to even feel the betrayal that way.


that has nothing to do with remorse. I am sure some a very remorseful eventually. I think most cheaters or to selfish and self-focused to ever truly understand anyone's pain.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> So,
> 1. ALL emotionally deep marriages have at least occasional instances of cruelty - be it overt or some type of neglect.
> 2. Therefore all marriages can be labeled abusive, and if you do some research the most popular explicit reason given for divorce has become - it was an abusive marriage. This is the go to move for folks who don’t want to leave it at: irreconcilable differences
> 3. I understand why wandering is considered a marital WMD, I merely happen to see it as one of many. And I see it as ranging from a moment of weakness to a pattern of choices and deception over time.
> 
> Humor an old man with a fondness for analytics. If I was to score wandering from 0-100, first I categorize the injuries/risks I’m exposing my partner to:
> 1. Surprise factor: This ranges from very low - one wanderer in a sexless marriage told his wife (before wandering). Your sex life may be over, but mine isn’t. This factor is highly correlated to the health of the marriage. The happier WE are, the more stunned I am by your betrayal.
> 2. Biohazard: Having unsafe sex with a third party - especially a third party about whom you know very little - exposes the betrayed to all sorts of nasty pathogens.
> 3. Financial exposure: If you are the sole breadwinner with minimal savings living at or beyond your means and you are in a small town with one big employer and you are sleeping with a direct report - you are putting the whole family in harms way financially.
> 4. Deception: If the affair is based on an ever growing body of lies and you are literally gaslighting your partner
> 5. Social group damage: If everyone but you knew about it - and people thought you stupid for not noticing.
> 
> What did I miss?
> 
> Alternatively - financial infidelity:
> 1. Your proximity to retirement at the point of discovery/maximum damage.
> 2. The number of years required to recover from the damage.
> 
> Give you a real world example. M2 fell in love with Dan back in 2011. Right on the ragged edge of jumping into bed with him. Confessed the whole thing 6 months after they stopped working together. Claims they never slept together. I believe her since the confession itself was entirely voluntary. That said - if I had to choose between her having had safe sex with Dan for a few months vs wiping us out financially, it is an easy if painful choice. Kids are now college grads with no debt. If she had wiped us out, they would all have a lot of school debt. And I could never retire. Just saying.


It's your life. Also 6 months where she confessed is not a LTA or Serial cheating. Which part of that do you not understand? I consistently qualified my point saying LTA or serial cheating. That is long term abuse.

Hope you got a poly by the way.


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> That's great! I hope it wasn't Quality who told you that though because then I am going to be annoyed. :laugh: I think it a broad sense this is true. Like I say the best reason not to cheat is because it's wrong and I am not that person. Same idea, your personal integrity is more important then personal gratification.


We have an accord. 



> I agree with much of what you said, but where we disagree on the dating thing ,I think it's because from my point of view the marriage is over at the point that the vows were broken. I don't care if the state recognizes it or not. It's over so the BS has no obligation to care what the WS thinks about them dating.


No, I agree with you that vows are between the two people with God as a witness, not made official by a piece of paper. That's just for tax benefits and whatnot  No, breaking the vows occurs when sex is withheld to punish, or when any portion of a % is given to anyone other than your spouse...in that moment. 



> The idea of dating is not about punishing the WS or causing consequences (though it is one) it's about the BS trying to see if there is better out there for them. I should explain if I didn't they should go through with the divorce for sure before they do this. I often think that many BS have no idea what the have accepted and for how long, because there only point of reference is their spouse. Most of these folks got married young at collage age. So they have no idea what it is like to be an adult dating another adult. Or what it would be like to date someone who just has a better skill-set for a relationship. Like you admit the WS has to learn a new way of thinking. But the BS is under no obligation to stick around for that. Lots of times there is no guarantee. And I am sorry but most of the time it's a bad bet.
> 
> So the dating is really about getting a sense of what other people might have to offer. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "compete", so lets say if the WS want the chance to try again and prove that they have changed or are really working on changing then if the BS is up for it, go for it. But I think the power dynamics are just better at that point. The BS gets a sense that there whole happiness is not predicated on there WS and that relationship, and the WS gets the understanding that they can't take the BS for granted anymore. What better motivation.
> 
> Honesty as you know my primary concern is always for the BS first, and I think once most get out and see how much better their life can be they won't want the WS anyway. So to me it's a good solution. Plus some BS are afraid to give up right away so the idea of dating at least makes it easier, for both of them, it's not so stark then. If they really have the fight to stay together after that then maybe it's meant to be. But it's really a new marriage there should be a feeling of starting something fresh.
> 
> It's just and idea. We don't have to agree.


Yeah I know we don't have to agree, and I can even follow your train of thought in that sometimes a person who is in the hot water for so many years doesn't realize they're being scalded...and suddenly being out of that with a nice person is like an eye-opener! I am not saying I don't have a compassionate understanding of what you're suggesting or why. I think our disagreement is in one thing: I believe if you made a vow to GIVE love to another person until you stop breathing you are under the obligation of that promise until you either a) stop breathing or b) make official arrangement to end that obligation. Thus I think if a betrayed wants to date, it is very reasonable to tell their wayward "Your infidelity has irretrevably broken our marriage and I'm exercising my right to officially end this obligation based on your actions." The end. It can be said--it can be written--it can legal. But to say "I want to reconcile--but I also want to have some nooky on the side to equal things out" is not something I believe in. 

Honestly, I personally recommend that betrayed spouses reasonably separate upon discovering adultery (that is to say, the wayward is OUT) and that thereafter they should take at least a year and observe. If the wayward means it, they'll set up their own counseling, get their butt to the counseling, do the counseling "homework", eat the crow, experience the natural consequences without complaint, and do everything in their power to do the right thing. If a betrayed observes that for a year--I say reconciliation is an option. If they don't observe that it was a :bsflag: from the beginning and just end it. And THEN..once you are actually FREE...then date. 

But that's just me. 



> One thing I will say about the whole learning a new mindset. The WS I read on SI and here whose BS stick around and help them do that are really and truly going above and beyond. I couldn't do it. But what some of these folks put up with the patience they show that is sacrificial love. Even if it doesn't work out and the WS doesn't get it, it's the BS who is providing the framework for the WS to have a better life.


I would say I agree with this, in that I will quite literally forever be in Dear Hubby's debt for the grace he extended me when I hurt him so badly. This is why I view him as a hero because what he did was honestly heroic love. But I can also say that his life was a lot better because he stayed with me! We became even better best friends. I supported him and his children for the rest of his life. I worked full-time and did all the household chores (because he couldn't). I medically cared for him in his illness, and I emotionally cared for him as he got more angry toward the end. I was the one holding him when he died, and even after death I honored his wishes and honored him. 

Can you not see that yep, the betrayed lives a patience that is beyond sacrificial love--but that doesn't mean that the rest of their life is ****? Nor does it mean that they are the only one sacrificing! Think about it @sokillme... in some ways people might think I would have been WAY better off to leave him and the house (aka 'MoneyPit') and the medical care and just take care of myself after the affair. But by choosing to stay, I honestly believe the final years of his life were happy, loving, and enriched.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> I'm stating my opinion from reading their words. Maybe some, but usually it takes a lot of work. Truth is if they understood the hurt they wouldn't have done it in the first place. So usually there is a learning process that has to take place to get there. Even the SI the common statement by WS and BS alike is a WS will never really understand a WS pain unless they go through it. Personally I think most WS suffer from a severe lack of empathy.
> 
> I could point to some prominent posters on SI who I think are very remorseful but when I read their posts I am struck by how self focused they are, this is very common. Not surprised but it's just they don't get it. It just requires a total brain rewire where they are not the center of their universe. The empathy part is just not there. At least that is how they read to me and this seems very consistent.
> 
> You say yourself it took years for you to get it. Until you experience it you never really will get it, not in the same visceral way. I don't think that means you can be remorseful though and have that remorse be very sincere.
> 
> Let me ask you. What do you think you husband's pain was like when he found out you cheated?


i think he wanted to die...truly wanted to end his life. I think I destroyed everything he believed to be truth...I think i emasculated him as a man...as a husband...as a father...I think he could not breathe...could not function....could not understand WHY....I think the one person he thought had his back betrayed him...I think i proved to him that the person he thought i was...was gone....I think he thought that the person he thought loved him did not love him as much as he thought i did. The pain??? How do you describe that kind of pain?When your whole world is gone by one act....how do you describe the pain you feel in your heart and soul?

I cant answer your question because i have no words...but when i realized the enormity of what i had done to the only man I had ever loved...I wept like i have never wept before...not for me...but for him....How could i be that kind of person who would do that to another person? and how could I EVER help him to know that I would never do that to him again? How could i ever help him to heal...to trust...to believe? What could I do to help him feel safe?


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Mem...I will be the first to confess...understanding true remorse is difficult. Remorse is much more than being sorry...or having regret. Remorse is not only putting yourself inside someone else's pain...it is an action. when i finally understood it...I became obsessed with doing everything i could to PROVE i got it....and i wanted to make sure that i did everything i could to lift that pain i placed on my husband onto myself. I am sure he got tired of hearing are you ok...is there anything you need? is there anything i can do?
> 
> Anyway...suffice to say...he knows i know...he knows i am sorry it took me so long to "get it" and he knows I will do anything he needs to help him feel safe.
> 
> It was like a lightbulb went off inside of my heart...and i could not do enough. If I can help one wayward to get there faster than i did....if i can help one betrayed to understand that it takes time...don't give up....then all the forum "stuff" i have put up with all of these years...is worth it.
> 
> Some betrayed spouses are so full of bitterness...and i UNDERSTAND that...that they prejudge all waywards to be the same...and i am here to say...we are not. I screwed up...I know that....but I love my husband very much and I would do anything he needs to heal..including walking away. That's a hard concept to understand. Loving someone more than you love yourself...especially for a wayward who put themselves above all others.
> 
> 
> Anyway...love your insight...


This is very powerful and I wish all WS were like you. But many BS will wait an eternity for there WS to "get it" only to be disappointed. That's why there also needs to be a voice saying life is too short there is better out there, you don't have to wait to be happy.


----------



## MEM2020

MJ,

This is just so good. Really - just a beautiful example of Christian sociology (the human to human stuff - as opposed to the human to God stuff). 

Why I love being surrounded by you folks, is there’s two things you - The Real Christ Followers - embrace in your day to day: The deep belief in forgiveness and the determined pursuit of redemption. 

I can’t imagine getting through life - as a flawed human - without those things. 




Mrs. John Adams said:


> Mem...I will be the first to confess...understanding true remorse is difficult. Remorse is much more than being sorry...or having regret. Remorse is not only putting yourself inside someone else's pain...it is an action. when i finally understood it...I became obsessed with doing everything i could to PROVE i got it....and i wanted to make sure that i did everything i could to lift that pain i placed on my husband onto myself. I am sure he got tired of hearing are you ok...is there anything you need? is there anything i can do?
> 
> Anyway...suffice to say...he knows i know...he knows i am sorry it took me so long to "get it" and he knows I will do anything he needs to help him feel safe.
> 
> It was like a lightbulb went off inside of my heart...and i could not do enough. If I can help one wayward to get there faster than i did....if i can help one betrayed to understand that it takes time...don't give up....then all the forum "stuff" i have put up with all of these years...is worth it.
> 
> Some betrayed spouses are so full of bitterness...and i UNDERSTAND that...that they prejudge all waywards to be the same...and i am here to say...we are not. I screwed up...I know that....but I love my husband very much and I would do anything he needs to heal..including walking away. That's a hard concept to understand. Loving someone more than you love yourself...especially for a wayward who put themselves above all others.
> 
> 
> Anyway...love your insight...


----------



## BluesPower

Affaircare said:


> It was early in my marriage, and we had just lost a child and found out we were infertile...and we both ADORED children. It knocked me to my knees and I felt like my purpose as a woman (to produce babies) was ripped from me. From what I NOW know from Dear Hubby, he felt like he was no man at all if he couldn't father a child. But at the time, we did not know what we did not know. I think I was a good candidate for marriage because after my divorce, I spent five years learning about what abusive relationships were, learning about personality types and which type * I * was and what went well with me (which were natural matches), learning about what healthy love looked like and how to do it, etc. I am a person who does enjoy sharing life with another and spent years becoming a better version of myself so I could be a good candidate. I knew I didn't want a player, a flirt, an angry man, a yeller, a guy who bought sex with dinner, etc. and I knew I did want someone peaceful, who loved children and loved God, who was kind-hearted and laughted easily, who was smart as a whip, and who benefitted from my presence. SURELY all those things described and describe Dear Hubby! And thus, I was a good candidate and he was a good candidate...in our early 40's we knew what we knew.
> 
> We did not know what we didn't know. I would have NEVER guessed I would ever cheat.  Had you asked me, after all the pain of being cheated on and all the years of learning, I would have spoken EXACTLY LIKE YOU. Exactly...to the letter almost. Not me! I'd never...! I'm better than those who do that! But what I didn't count on was losing a child. I had never had that happen so there was no way I could tell if I would be a good candidate for "dealing with the death of a child" or not--and losing a child, never being able to have another, and Dear Hubby distancing right then...that was my perfect storm.
> 
> I believe I was a good candidate then, and when life threw me a hard curve, I did not choose well. But I did stop, I did learn, and now I'm an even better candidate because I dare to look at my own self and say "Wow I am capable of inflicting that kind of damage. I have to guard my own self! I have to guard those I love against what I sorrow to know I could do if I'm not careful! I have to guard the ones I have vowed to protect!"
> 
> Now, can you say that?


I am just focusing on this last part of your post. Now I get what you are saying, and I think there I so much that is valid in what you say about circumstances and growing and all that.

However, I will say now, that when I married my ExW, I was superior every aspect than she was, she knew it and she hated it. But I proved it time and time again except toward the end. 

Did I have issues, yeah I was like 25 YO. Did I know less them than I know now, you bet I did. Was I like the best husband in the world, well maybe not the best, but I was up there. 

Now some of this is tongue in cheek, but yes I was capable, mature enough, and I did a good job. 

Do I wish I knew then what I know now about mental health, communication, and on and on. You bet. 

Do I wish I would have divorced my Ex the minute she cheated, absolutely. I just was in a lot of ways ignorant about life. 

I grew up hard, I had to be responsible, I had to earn my way, I had to walk up hill both ways to school naked, and on and on. 

But I took care of my "sick" wife, raised those kids, provided for my family, the whole bit. But even with everything she ever did to me, before the last straw, I loved that woman with all my heart. I kept my family together, I shielded my children from my wife's insanity. 

While this may sound like BS I assure you that it is all true. Yeah, I was superior to most men in every way as far as being in a marriage. 

However, I was at the time, too ignorant to understand that my ex was not, the whole blinded by love thing I guess.


----------



## MEM2020

A poly? Don’t be ridiculous. 

Got the neighbor men folk together and buried her up to her neck. Stoned her to death - w/bull rock. Serves me right - letting her walk round outside without a NIQAB. 





sokillme said:


> It's your life. Also 6 months where she confessed is not a LTA or Serial cheating. Which part of that do you not understand? I consistently qualified my point saying LTA or serial cheating. That is long term abuse.
> 
> Hope you got a poly by the way.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @BluesPowerMy point being that to say that for the rest of your life and her life that you are a good candidate for marriage, and she is a bad candidate for marriage is just not accurate. She may be a fine candidate for someone who's personality type is closer to hers, who has similar "interests" (even if the interests are "partying"), or who fights like her or is irresponsible like her. It would be a messy marriage but hey--not your circus, not your monkeys. Some people truly are polyamorous or swing, and that may not be YOUR morality (or considered moral by major religions) but if that is between them, then it doesn't involve you and may be completely acceptable in their marriage!


See I believe that people can grow and become fine candidates for marriage but what truly makes you a good candidate is your character. Even in open marriages you still need to have the right character to have a successful one. 

I don't think personally type mean you are a bad candidate, it may mean people are a bad match. But the moral way to solve that is to divorce not cheat.

It's the cheating, lying, general dishonesty that makes you a bad choice.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> A poly? Don’t be ridiculous.
> 
> Got the neighbor men folk together and buried her up to her neck. Stoned her to death - w/bull rock. Serves me right - letting her walk round outside without a NIQAB.


Your life. Maybe scarlet letter?? >


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> This is very powerful and I wish all WS were like you. But many BS will wait an eternity for there WS to "get it" only to be disappointed. That's why there also needs to be a voice saying life is too short there is better out there, you don't have to wait to be happy.


and i can tell you VERY FEW waywards will EVER get it. They will be sorry...they will be regretful...they will fall on the floor and cry.

But if they NEVER ask you as a betrayed...what do you need me to do to help you feel safe again...and when you give the answer...they don't immediately begin to do it...chances are they don't get it....and they may not EVER. 

I believe in my heart the secret to reconciliation is being able to put the other person before yourself no matter what. That means if today...John said...I cannot do this anymore...it is just too much...I would ask him what he needs and I would do my best to accommodate him. Even if that meant financial disaster. Remember..I am 63 years old....my financial future depends on him...I am too old to start over. and while i might be devastated and destroyed...I would do whatever he needs from me. Sacrificial love....that's what you must have as a wayward.....

There are many couples who "settle" their waywards never truly understand the pain they have caused....and if they are willing to accept sorrow in place of remorse...that is their decision. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I think very few waywards ever understand the enormity of their betrayal....and it took me a very long time. Does everyone have the time john gave me?


----------



## MEM2020

No - you did not use the word remorse. Lot of synonyms in the English language. 





sokillme said:


> I really don't believe they can get a taste of their own medicine because I don't believe in most cases they have the depth to even feel the betrayal that way. Remember these are people who don't really think of loyalty as anything of value, also for lots of them sex is just something you do with someone you desire, there is not sacredness to it. They would only see it as something that was done to them, but not something that was lost like a healthy person would. Maybe years later with lots of therapy, but most don't do that. I think the only thing that can positively come out of it is it provides a sense of justice for some BS, and it can restore the feeling of being valued again. However I just don't think those feelings in the end will be worth the other complications it creates or the loss of honor. The honor one would be the biggest one to me.
> 
> Besides all that, you can have all those feelings if you divorce and date again. Let your WS try to regain your affection if they are determined to do so. But maybe even if they are trying their hardest there will be someone who doesn't have all that baggage and is just a better choice. OR maybe it will weed out all the WS who are just giving lip service to the whole, I will do whatever it takes. It's a good test too.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i think he wanted to die...truly wanted to end his life. I think I destroyed everything he believed to be truth...I think i emasculated him as a man...as a husband...as a father...I think he could not breathe...could not function....could not understand WHY....I think the one person he thought had his back betrayed him...I think i proved to him that the person he thought i was...was gone....I think he thought that the person he thought loved him did not love him as much as he thought i did. The pain??? How do you describe that kind of pain?When your whole world is gone by one act....how do you describe the pain you feel in your heart and soul?
> 
> I cant answer your question because i have no words...but when i realized the enormity of what i had done to the only man I had ever loved...I wept like i have never wept before...not for me...but for him....How could i be that kind of person who would do that to another person? and how could I EVER help him to know that I would never do that to him again? How could i ever help him to heal...to trust...to believe? What could I do to help him feel safe?


That's probably close. You are even more rare then I thought. 

What did you think during the long time before you got that. How long did it take to get it. Did his cheating contribute to your epiphany? How did you get to the point where you would cheat in such a short time?


----------



## BluesPower

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and i can tell you VERY FEW waywards will EVER get it. They will be sorry...they will be regretful...they will fall on the floor and cry.
> 
> But if they NEVER ask you as a betrayed...what do you need me to do to help you feel safe again...and when you give the answer...they don't immediately begin to do it...chances are they don't get it....and they may not EVER.
> 
> I believe in my heart the secret to reconciliation is being able to put the other person before yourself no matter what. That means if today...John said...I cannot do this anymore...it is just too much...I would ask him what he needs and I would do my best to accommodate him. Even if that meant financial disaster. Remember..I am 63 years old....my financial future depends on him...I am too old to start over. and while i might be devastated and destroyed...I would do whatever he needs from me. Sacrificial love....that's what you must have as a wayward.....
> 
> There are many couples who "settle" their waywards never truly understand the pain they have caused....and if they are willing to accept sorrow in place of remorse...that is their decision. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I think very few waywards ever understand the enormity of their betrayal....and it took me a very long time. Does everyone have the time john gave me?


I think the thing that a lot of people don't understand about your situation, is that you really worked for it. Your husband must have had the patents of job. There are some on these boards that think their WS is remorseful, and I just laugh to my self. It is amazing how you never know anything about this stuff until you live it, usually by then it is too late.

But the big deal about your reconciliation it that you got to remorse. But how long did that take? 

I know it was a long time, and frankly I am not sure that I could have waited that long. 

If I thought my ex was actually remorseful about everything she did to me, at least I would not hate her. 

She had multiple opportunities to save the marriage, she just was not able to do it. I am not sure she will ever understand...


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> There are many couples who "settle" their waywards never truly understand the pain they have caused....and if they are willing to accept sorrow in place of remorse...that is their decision. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I think very few waywards ever understand the enormity of their betrayal....and it took me a very long time. Does everyone have the time john gave me?


Most of them settle because of fear or because the don't know there could be better. Because people expect them to, their family, friends and church tell them it's not that bad and they should get over it. Because of the books and talks telling them to rethink infidelity. When they clearly say on boards like this that they want to divorce. However people chime in telling them to slow down, think of the children! (Or if they were honest, "if you can leave what does that says about ME who didn't leave when is still miserable!") There is a hell of a lot wrong with that.

Like your friends husband whose wife had a LTA. When does he get all the wasted years he spent on your friend back? I get why SHE is happy, but there is no happy ending for him, just a big part of his life wasted. Tragic.

That is the difference in the perception of the WS and the BS. The WS sees it from there perspective where she is forgiven and in the end had a good life with a man who loved here. She is healed now and happy. What they never get is the BS's point of view, where he wasted the best years of his life loving someone who treated his love like garbage. Years that could have been spent on someone and something real. Something he will never get back.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> That's probably close. You are even more rare then I thought.
> 
> What did you think during the long time before you got that. How long did it take to get it. Did his cheating contribute to your epiphany? How did you get to the point where you would cheat in such a short time?


For many years I "thought" I was remorseful...because after all...I was sorry. I regretted what i had done. He waited...patiently waited for me to say the right things...he felt I should KNOW the difference. Remember...there was no internet....no forums....we had to do this on our own. We went to a therapist..who proceeded to tell John everything was HIS fault....we both decided to never go back.

We talked...but we never really got to the DEEP stuff...you know? the gut wrenching do you realize what you have done to me stuff. We had a good life....but we both knew it was just below the surface...it was like an abscess....we put enough ointment on it to dull the pain...but we never really dug deep enough to get the splinter. 

and one day...John told me he joined a forum called TAM. I was furious....how could he go online and bare his soul and tell all the bad things i had said and i had done? and then he sent me a link to a book...How to help your spouse heal from your affair by linda mcdonald. I read those 90 or so pages at work....and i saw myself and i heard my voice say so many of the things that she said were the wrong things....and i knew in my heart what i had done to him....and how for all those years he did not give up on me but kept hoping and praying that i would understand. My life changed that day....and i too joined TAM and i listened to betrayed people who told me how they had been ripped apart by the people they had loved...and I began to see and understand and i was driven to be better...to do better...to become the woman I was before...to love my husband the way he deserved to be loved...to make it up to him...for all the years he had waited for me to just understand.

I was ridiculed and attacked....but I was hungry...I took it....and i cried but i dug deeper. I began to read other books and join other forums and I kept searching to be a better person...to help him feel safe again.

and here we are....only i am no longer searching...now I look for others who are searching...hoping that i can help them to find answers...and that they will do it much quicker than i did. Reconciliation..is a lifelong process...and i will work to be a better person...and help my husband to feel loved and admired for the man he is. The man who gave me a gift...the gift of reconciliation...and I will show him...that i deserved that gift.


----------



## MEM2020

priceless

Acts of Contrition on the road to Redemption. MJ is a great role model. 





Mrs. John Adams said:


> For many years I "thought" I was remorseful...because after all...I was sorry. I regretted what i had done. He waited...patiently waited for me to say the right things...he felt I should KNOW the difference. Remember...there was no internet....no forums....we had to do this on our own. We went to a therapist..who proceeded to tell John everything was HIS fault....we both decided to never go back.
> 
> We talked...but we never really got to the DEEP stuff...you know? the gut wrenching do you realize what you have done to me stuff. We had a good life....but we both knew it was just below the surface...it was like an abscess....we put enough ointment on it to dull the pain...but we never really dug deep enough to get the splinter.
> 
> and one day...John told me he joined a forum called TAM. I was furious....how could he go online and bare his soul and tell all the bad things i had said and i had done? and then he sent me a link to a book...How to help your spouse heal from your affair by linda mcdonald. I read those 90 or so pages at work....and i saw myself and i heard my voice say so many of the things that she said were the wrong things....and i knew in my heart what i had done to him....and how for all those years he did not give up on me but kept hoping and praying that i would understand. My life changed that day....and i too joined TAM and i listened to betrayed people who told me how they had been ripped apart by the people they had loved...and I began to see and understand and i was driven to be better...to do better...to become the woman I was before...to love my husband the way he deserved to be loved...to make it up to him...for all the years he had waited for me to just understand.
> 
> I was ridiculed and attacked....but I was hungry...I took it....and i cried but i dug deeper. I began to read other books and join other forums and I kept searching to be a better person...to help him feel safe again.
> 
> and here we are....only i am no longer searching...now I look for others who are searching...hoping that i can help them to find answers...and that they will do it much quicker than i did. Reconciliation..is a lifelong process...and i will work to be a better person...and help my husband to feel loved and admired for the man he is. The man who gave me a gift...the gift of reconciliation...and I will show him...that i deserved that gift.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes cheating is absolutely a form of abuse. Do you believe that an abuser can get better? Do you believe an abuser can stop abusing? Do you believe an alcoholic can stop drinking?
> 
> I made a bad choice... and I have worked very hard to overcome the repercussions of that choice. John could have divorced me.. he chose to reconcile. I abused him because I cheated. But I no longer abuse him. So then can an abuser change?
> 
> I can certainly in good faith recommend reconciliation to those who seek it. I share the mistakes we made in our reconciliation is hopes they can avoid the same mistakes. But ultimately the decision to reconcile or divorce is theirs


Yes, people can change. But most don't.

If something has a 1% chance of success, yes, I'm going to default to telling people not to bother trying. Though I usually point out a few methods to try to discern if they may be of the 1% first before they give up. You have to know yourself, if you can be patient and endure the pain it will take. And you have to know your cheating spouse, to know if they are capable of remorse and guess what, they've just proven they are deceitful on a huge scale and you don't actually know them at all!

You are setting 99% of the people for failure by defaulting to encouraging them all to reconcile in the hopes that they are of the 1%.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

MEM2020 said:


> priceless
> 
> Acts of Contrition on the road to Redemption. MJ is a great role model.


not a role model at all....but humbled by the graciousness I have been shown that i do not deserve. My husband...is my role model...because he has always understood commitment and forgiveness and unselfishness and unconditional love.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> We have an accord.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I agree with you that vows are between the two people with God as a witness, not made official by a piece of paper. That's just for tax benefits and whatnot  No, breaking the vows occurs when sex is withheld to punish, or when any portion of a % is given to anyone other than your spouse...in that moment.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I know we don't have to agree, and I can even follow your train of thought in that sometimes a person who is in the hot water for so many years doesn't realize they're being scalded...and suddenly being out of that with a nice person is like an eye-opener! I am not saying I don't have a compassionate understanding of what you're suggesting or why. I think our disagreement is in one thing: I believe if you made a vow to GIVE love to another person until you stop breathing you are under the obligation of that promise until you either a) stop breathing or b) make official arrangement to end that obligation. Thus I think if a betrayed wants to date, it is very reasonable to tell their wayward "Your infidelity has irretrevably broken our marriage and I'm exercising my right to officially end this obligation based on your actions." The end. It can be said--it can be written--it can legal. But to say "I want to reconcile--but I also want to have some nooky on the side to equal things out" is not something I believe in.
> 
> Honestly, I personally recommend that betrayed spouses reasonably separate upon discovering adultery (that is to say, the wayward is OUT) and that thereafter they should take at least a year and observe. If the wayward means it, they'll set up their own counseling, get their butt to the counseling, do the counseling "homework", eat the crow, experience the natural consequences without complaint, and do everything in their power to do the right thing. If a betrayed observes that for a year--I say reconciliation is an option. If they don't observe that it was a :bsflag: from the beginning and just end it. And THEN..once you are actually FREE...then date.
> 
> But that's just me.



First of all I do believe if you verbally recommit to the marriage or hang in there for years then it's cheating if you stray. I can understand why it happens but it's still cheating. I like you say the best thing to do is separate at least for a while. Plus the most effective stories are the ones where the BS goes away, like disappears for a month or so. That is usually enough to start to get the WS's head out of there ass. (that is such a much better way to say it then "the fog".)



Affaircare said:


> I would say I agree with this, in that I will quite literally forever be in Dear Hubby's debt for the grace he extended me when I hurt him so badly. This is why I view him as a hero because what he did was honestly heroic love. But I can also say that his life was a lot better because he stayed with me! We became even better best friends. I supported him and his children for the rest of his life. I worked full-time and did all the household chores (because he couldn't). I medically cared for him in his illness, and I emotionally cared for him as he got more angry toward the end. I was the one holding him when he died, and even after death I honored his wishes and honored him.
> 
> Can you not see that yep, the betrayed lives a patience that is beyond sacrificial love--but that doesn't mean that the rest of their life is ****? Nor does it mean that they are the only one sacrificing! Think about it @sokillme... in some ways people might think I would have been WAY better off to leave him and the house (aka 'MoneyPit') and the medical care and just take care of myself after the affair. But by choosing to stay, I honestly believe the final years of his life were happy, loving, and enriched.


See I read you and I read @Mrs. John Adams's stories and I start to think, maybe I am too hard on WS and R in general. Maybe I should change my thinking. But then I read SI's R section and see all the people who are wasting there lives. And then you stumble onto some board like this one and you see, most WS are full of ****. I dare you to read just 5 of the posts there and tell me these people are not immoral, and are ever going to be good candidates to R That's who these WS really are, not the defenseless puppies that they pretend to be when they come on these sites after everything blows up. Not the whole, "I don't know what I was thinking, I didn't really want to do it I just couldn't help myself" that they like to say once all hell is breaking lose. They had no remorse and loved what they were doing. This is what the BS needs to understand about who they are choosing to continue to spend their life with. You guys are SO SO much the exception that it just isn't worth taking into consideration. 

By the way this is only the first of my thoughts on types of affairs. Just imagine when I get to exit affairs, the site might shut down! >


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Yes, people can change. But most don't.
> 
> If something has a 1% chance of success, yes, I'm going to default to telling people not to bother trying. Though I usually point out a few methods to try to discern if they may be of the 1% first before they give up.
> 
> You are setting 99% of the people for failure by defaulting to encouraging them all to reconcile in the hopes that they are of the 1%.


except that i probably recommend divorce more than i recommend reconciliation. I RARELY recommend reconciliation.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

personofinterest said:


> Ya...I've heard this too. From one specific place. That is also where a lot of "YOU must apply MY opinion or you are immoral" crap comes from too.
> 
> Sorry. I don't respect anyone who would rather lose their child than be cheated on.


In the aftermath of my discovery of my ex's affair, a colleague was going through chemotherapy for cancer, and I was disturbed to realize I felt envious. I would rather have had a life-threatening illness, or have my child have one, than be cheated on. At least then I'd be going through a terrible but random experience with a supportive partner whose love was true, rather than be going through a terrible experience alone, that was deliberately caused by the person who was supposed to be my supportive partner but really only loved themselves.

I guess I've lost your respect.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> First of all I do believe if you verbally recommit to the marriage or hang in there for years then it's cheating if you stray. I can understand why it happens but it's still cheating. I like you say the best thing to do is separate at least for a while. Plus the most effective stories are the ones where the BS goes away, like disappears for a month or so. That is usually enough to start to get the WS's head out of there ass. (that is such a much better way to say it then "the fog".)
> 
> 
> 
> See I read you and I read @Mrs. John Adams's stories and I start to think, maybe I am too hard on WS and R in general. Maybe I should change my thinking. But then I read SI's R section and see all the people who are wasting there lives. And then you stumble onto some board like this one and you see, most WS are full of ****. I dare you to read just 5 of the posts there and tell me these people are not immoral, and are ever going to be good candidates to R That's who these WS really are, not the defenseless puppies that they pretend to be when they come on these sites after everything blows up. Not the whole, "I don't know what I was thinking, I didn't really want to do it I just couldn't help myself" that they like to say once all hell is breaking lose. They had no remorse and loved what they were doing. This is what the BS needs to understand about who they are choosing to continue to spend their life with. You guys are SO SO much the exception that it just isn't worth taking into consideration.
> 
> By the way this is only the first of my thoughts on types of affairs. Just imagine when I get to exit affairs, the site might shut down! >


you do realize that 50% of the stories posted on these forums are trolls...right? I too belong to SI and I belonged to LS....I believe half of the people half of the time.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> you do realize that 50% of the stories posted on these forums are trolls...right? I too belong to SI and I belonged to LS....I believe half of the people half of the time.


Of course, but you do realize that most WS are lairs right? Like that is their default way they deal with conflict.



> except that i probably recommend divorce more than i recommend reconciliation. I RARELY recommend reconciliation.


You and I mostly agree. I think you just don't like my tone. Which I get, sometimes I don't like my tone. >

Thinking about this post --



> There are many couples who "settle" their waywards never truly understand the pain they have caused....and if they are willing to accept sorrow in place of remorse...that is their decision. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I think very few waywards ever understand the enormity of their betrayal....and it took me a very long time. Does everyone have the time john gave me?


Here is where I think you don't get it, and it's the kind of thing that I find a lot of WS don't get. In this situation it's not the _couples_ who settle. It's really only the BS. The BS has to settle for a Plan B marriage with a WS who doesn't even get what they did to them or that they are settling at all. The WS gets lucky that they are married to someone who is willing to settle. Settling implies that they both deserve better, but it's really the BS that deserves better. The WS deserves to be single.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Welp looks like another ex-SIer managed to get banned from every forum. Someone that still has an account send nicenomore an invite here. Poor guy probably got his nuts turned inside out over there.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> Of course, but you do realize that most WS are lairs right? Like that is their default way they deal with conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> You and I mostly agree. I think you just don't like my tone. Which I get, sometimes I don't like my tone. >
> 
> Thinking about this post --
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I think you don't get it, and it's the kind of thing that I find a lot of WS don't get. In this situation it's not the _couples_ who settle. It's really only the BS. The BS has to settle for a Plan B marriage with a WS who doesn't even get what they did to them or that they are settling at all. The WS gets lucky that they are married to someone who is willing to settle. Settling implies that they both deserve better, but it's really the BS that deserves better. The WS deserves to be single.


I agree that is indeed the betrayeds who settle more than waywards...but i think there are also many waywards who also settle. Why? Because most of them were not happy to begin with....fear, failure, children, money...all the same reasons betrayeds settle for an unremorseful wayward are often the same reasons an unremorseful wayward stays with an unhappy and broken betrayed spouse. In many ways ...it is very sad, Two people unafraid to let go....neither one knows how to move forward...with or without the other one.

I would also like to address the plan B crap. My husband was plan A....he was the man i loved and shared 11 years with. He never became a plan B. yes...I betrayed him and broke his heart....but i did realize what i almost lost...what i should have lost. Anyway i have an issue with the plan B scenario and i also have a problem with the alpha beta crap. I think all men have both traits...another time another subject.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I agree that is indeed the betrayeds who settle more than waywards...but i think there are also many waywards who also settle. Why? Because most of them were not happy to begin with....fear, failure, children, money...all the same reasons betrayeds settle for an unremorseful wayward are often the same reasons an unremorseful wayward stays with an unhappy and broken betrayed spouse. In many ways ...it is very sad, Two people unafraid to let go....neither one knows how to move forward...with or without the other one.


Yet everyone on here gets on me for suggesting divorce? I agree that often it's two dysfunctional people, it's part of the attraction I think. 

Wayword spouses may stay for the same reasons but they don't deserve to be there.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I would also like to address the plan B crap. My husband was plan A....he was the man i loved and shared 11 years with. He never became a plan B. yes...I betrayed him and broke his heart....but i did realize what i almost lost...what i should have lost. Anyway i have an issue with the plan B scenario and i also have a problem with the alpha beta crap. I think all men have both traits...another time another subject.


I said a marriage where your partner cheats on you is plan B. After all no one would plan to be in a marriage where their spouse cheated. If a BS was thinking correctly I don't think they would ever consider themselves a plan B to a WS. The WS by their actions don't merit having the BS be their plan anything. If they stay together it's a gift. 

The WS is lucky, and like I told @Affaircare lots of times the BS literally saves the WS's life. As you say you were very selfish. Who would you be as a person if your husband had dumped you? You probably would have been sorry but you would not have been remorseful or have grown as much as you have as a person? Would you have learned to love in an unselfish way? In that way would you have been able really understand love as deep as you do now? Selfish people really have a hard time with love. Because true love is the absence of selfishness. You may have gone through your whole life never experience love like that. Your husband could have moved on and met someone else who already understood these things. 

MJA I don't get it, you pretty much agree with most of what I am arguing. Were do you think I am wrong? Or is it really just my tone? 

I agree with you on the Alpha-Beta stuff. We were posting about that somewhere else on here.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I dont know but the Waywards that engage in a LTA, withholds sex from spouse, while giving it freely to AP sounds like Plan B to me. If everything were equal...no marriage, no kids, etc....you know they would run off together. Instead the poor wayward has to go back to her boring married life or lose her provider. Rough world.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I dont know but the Waywards that engage in a LTA, withholds sex from spouse, while giving it freely to AP sounds like Plan B to me. If everything were equal...no marriage, no kids, etc....you know they would run off together. Instead the poor wayward has to go back to her boring married life or lose her provider. Rough world.


I don't necessarily think they would run off together. I think many of them like the idea of having two spouses many times. One for sex and ego stroking and the other to provide. It's easier in some ways. You don't have to deal with the skid marks in the underwear when guy you are having sex with, and you don't have to worry if the guy you are having sex with leave you or really you losing your meal ticket.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I'm stating my opinion from reading their words. Maybe some, but usually it takes a lot of work. *Truth is if they understood the hurt they wouldn't have done it in the first place.*
> 
> What do you think you husband's pain was like when he found out you cheated?


The bold statement above: you hold on to it and that's why there is absolutely nothing a WS can say or do because you will always come back to this statement (like a circular argument). Therefore I am not sure what your questions to waywards accomplish.

You are talking past each other as a result and not sure you both will come to any understanding.


----------



## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and i can tell you VERY FEW waywards will EVER get it. They will be sorry...they will be regretful...they will fall on the floor and cry.
> 
> But if they NEVER ask you as a betrayed...what do you need me to do to help you feel safe again...


What if the answer to this is: "to let me go"?

I think SKM's point was (sorry if I got it wrong) is that many waywards not only make it about themselves when they cheat but also about themselves when they try to R and they may not even know it. Even if the question is "what can I do to help you feel safe again?" could potentially be a sensitive and a very self-centred question and possibly even the wrong question to ask, given the circumstances.


----------



## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Yes, people can change. But most don't.
> 
> If something has a 1% chance of success, yes, I'm going to default to telling people not to bother trying. Though I usually point out a few methods to try to discern if they may be of the 1% first before they give up. You have to know yourself, if you can be patient and endure the pain it will take. And you have to know your cheating spouse, to know if they are capable of remorse and guess what, they've just proven they are deceitful on a huge scale and you don't actually know them at all!
> 
> You are setting 99% of the people for failure by defaulting to encouraging them all to reconcile in the hopes that they are of the 1%.


But it's actually the majority that recover successfully from infidelity (according to statistics), not 1%!
TAM may not be the best representative.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> What if the answer to this is: "to let me go"?
> 
> I think SKM's point was (sorry if I got it wrong) is that many waywards not only make it about themselves when they cheat but also about themselves when they try to R and they may not even know it. Even if the question is "what can I do to help you feel safe again?" could potentially be a sensitive and a very self-centred question and possibly even the wrong question to ask, given the circumstances.


and if a wayward understands remorse..the ME disappears from the equation...which is why remorse is very difficult. I addressed this earlier but it bears repeating. If today....my husband needed to divorce me...I would give him the divorce with no fight. Because I love him unselfishly. I would lose everything....but if it is what he needs...it is what I must do. 

How can I make YOU feel safe again...is NEVER the wrong question.....and if the wayward understands remorse....the betrayed will know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the question is sincere.

You see reconciliation is not the ultimate goal.....HEALING is. If reconciliation is part of the process...wonderful...but divorce can also be the best answer. You misconceive that reconciliation is the subject. The topic as far as I am concerned is remorse. Even if a couple divorces....they both need healing....and if a wayward understands remorse they can still help their betrayed to heal....

When I confessed my affair....I ended the conversation with this statement. I know you have to do what is best for you...and if you want to divorce me...I will ask for nothing.

Even then...when i had no clue what remorse is...i still understood that i had acted selfishly and i now had to put him first. I will admit...i was not successful in achieving that...I was still focused on my own pain.

Remorse is not possible until you can stop thinking about self...the focus has to be understanding the pain you caused....and there is no room for you in that endeavor. I cannot understand HIS pain if i am still absorbed in my own.

So if john had said...let me go...sad as it would make me...I would let him go....FOR HIM


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> Yet everyone on here gets on me for suggesting divorce? I agree that often it's two dysfunctional people, it's part of the attraction I think.
> 
> Wayword spouses may stay for the same reasons but they don't deserve to be there.
> 
> 
> 
> I said a marriage where your partner cheats on you is plan B. After all no one would plan to be in a marriage where their spouse cheated. If a BS was thinking correctly I don't think they would ever consider themselves a plan B to a WS. The WS by their actions don't merit having the BS be their plan anything. If they stay together it's a gift.
> 
> The WS is lucky, and like I told @Affaircare lots of times the BS literally saves the WS's life. As you say you were very selfish. Who would you be as a person if your husband had dumped you? You probably would have been sorry but you would not have been remorseful or have grown as much as you have as a person? Would you have learned to love in an unselfish way? In that way would you have been able really understand love as deep as you do now? Selfish people really have a hard time with love. Because true love is the absence of selfishness. You may have gone through your whole life never experience love like that. Your husband could have moved on and met someone else who already understood these things.
> 
> MJA I don't get it, you pretty much agree with most of what I am arguing. Were do you think I am wrong? Or is it really just my tone?
> 
> I agree with you on the Alpha-Beta stuff. We were posting about that somewhere else on here.


I think my problem is that you seem to be hellbent on telling others to divorce and when they choose reconciliation ridicule them for their choice. You have lumped everyone into the same boxes.

I think the people come here searching for answers...but mostly they come here for support...regardless of their choice. If a poster wants to divorce...i do not try to talk them out of it. I support their decision. If a person chooses to reconcile...do you support them? or continue to tell them how it is the wrong decision?


----------



## personofinterest

Hopeful Cynic said:


> In the aftermath of my discovery of my ex's affair, a colleague was going through chemotherapy for cancer, and I was disturbed to realize I felt envious. I would rather have had a life-threatening illness, or have my child have one, than be cheated on. At least then I'd be going through a terrible but random experience with a supportive partner whose love was true, rather than be going through a terrible experience alone, that was deliberately caused by the person who was supposed to be my supportive partner but really only loved themselves.
> 
> I guess I've lost your respect.


No, that I understand. Envy I understand. Someone saying they'd RATHER lose a child than be cheated on...nope. Walk all over me, betray me to the hilt, but I don't want my child to die.

The bottom line is that you are feeling your personal experience. My problem is when a group says "You MUST feel/think/talk/do this exactly as this cookie cutter prescribes."


----------



## SunCMars

katies said:


> It's like some men here are projecting their own rage against other men who stay in marriages where the wife cheats. And then desperately want to judge them and name them something for staying as if it's personal, like some collective letting down of the the male population. Who the hell cares?


That is exactly correct.

Men lock arms, bar the door, when a women cheats.


Who cares?
The average man cares.

Men thinking:
Who does this women think she is?
Her, getting uppity, getting her loving from someone else.

Just thinking about it angers men. It must be innate behavior.
A sensitive male button for sure.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

personofinterest said:


> No, that I understand. Envy I understand. Someone saying they'd RATHER lose a child than be cheated on...nope. Walk all over me, betray me to the hilt, but I don't want my child to die.
> 
> The bottom line is that you are feeling your personal experience. My problem is when a group says "You MUST feel/think/talk/do this exactly as this cookie cutter prescribes."


I agree that the issue arises...when we project our own opinions and judgments onto others. Even if you go to a dr for an illness...while they have a list of symptoms and match those to ways to cure them....they have to understand that the chemical makeup of each patient is still individual.

Which is also the point i have been trying to make. Yes...infidelities are similar...yes many of the recommendations to aid in healing from those infidelities are similar....but each couple dynamic is different because of the two individuals involved. Divorce is the right answer for some....reconciliation is the right answer for some.....and both of those options apply to the individual couple. Some waywards will never achieve remorse....some betrayeds will never achieve healing......whether divorced or reconciled...but they live their lives the best way they can. They will always carry scars....that is a fact.....but they can still have peace and happiness....even though they have to settle. John and I have settled....why? Because the reality is that we both want the same thing...for it NEVER TO HAVE HAPPENED....and that is not possible. SO sometimes things happen in life that we simply cannot change.....

Obviously...divorce does not always provide healing....this forum is full of betrayed spouses who still struggle with anger and resentment and bitterness....and I am not criticizing it...I understand it. So obviously to scream divorce at every betrayed is not always a fool proof way of achieving healing.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and if a wayward understands remorse..the ME disappears from the equation...which is why remorse is very difficult. I addressed this earlier but it bears repeating. If today....my husband needed to divorce me...I would give him the divorce with no fight. Because I love him unselfishly. I would lose everything....but if it is what he needs...it is what I must do.
> 
> How can I make YOU feel safe again...is NEVER the wrong question.....and if the wayward understands remorse....the betrayed will know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the question is sincere.
> 
> You see reconciliation is not the ultimate goal.....HEALING is. If reconciliation is part of the process...wonderful...but divorce can also be the best answer. You misconceive that reconciliation is the subject. The topic as far as I am concerned is remorse. Even if a couple divorces....they both need healing....and if a wayward understands remorse they can still help their betrayed to heal....
> 
> When I confessed my affair....I ended the conversation with this statement. I know you have to do what is best for you...and if you want to divorce me...I will ask for nothing.
> 
> Even then...when i had no clue what remorse is...i still understood that i had acted selfishly and i now had to put him first. I will admit...i was not successful in achieving that...I was still focused on my own pain.
> 
> Remorse is not possible until you can stop thinking about self...the focus has to be understanding the pain you caused....and there is no room for you in that endeavor. I cannot understand HIS pain if i am still absorbed in my own.
> 
> So if john had said...let me go...sad as it would make me...I would let him go....FOR HIM


How hard is remorse though, really? Is it really that difficult to see the brutality of your actions and not feel guilty and ashamed as hell? If a person can't do that atleast, I have to question their humanity.Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning of 'remorse', but it seems pretty clear to me. If you don't have it immediately, I'm not sure if you are capable of it. Thats why I can't stand the term fog, it leave BS's waiting around for some mystical fog to lift instead of being proactive.


----------



## MyRevelation

inmyprime said:


> But it's actually the majority that *recover successfully* from infidelity (according to statistics), not 1%!
> TAM may not be the best representative.


If you insist on including the bolded qualifier, then I DO NOT believe the above statement to be anywhere close to true. Now, if you want to say "the majority *don't divorce* after infidelity", I might go along with that in BW/WH scenarios, but I won't even agree that the majority "don't divorce" in BH/WW situations.

"Recover Successfully" doesn't not equal "don't divorce" and we see way too many cases of people claiming "recovery" when all they really are is "not divorced". Self deception is a powerful and often employed tactic recommended on many infidelity sites ... it is the basis of the MB model of "fake it till you make it". Well, that's sounds good until you realize that most (nearly all) don't ever "make it" and just "fake it" by continuing to be "not divorced".

Once again, you're making declaratory statements about a subject you have absolutely no experience in and are just repeating a bunch of infidelity myths from the Reconciliation Industrial Complex.

Next you'll be advising us that "you can have an even stronger/better M after an A".


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## personofinterest

> "Recover Successfully" doesn't not equal "don't divorce"


AMEN to this


----------



## katies

MyRevelation said:


> "Recover Successfully" doesn't not equal "don't divorce" ".


no one is saying this. In fact, I've read statistics that about 50% stay together and about 17% of those are happily reconciled. Different than 1%.


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## Mrs. John Adams

Upside down... how hard is it really to understand remorse? Well damn near impossible... it is not just understanding the emotion of betrayal... it is understanding the pain it caused. It requires empathy.. it requires placing yourself inside of that pain mentally so that you feel it yourself.

Let’s be real here a minute... cheaters like myself.. were capable of placing themselves above everything and everyone else. Nothing else mattered at that moment... it was all about you. 

Now if you have a person capable of doing that... don’t you then think that just perhaps empathy might be difficult for them to experience? 

And if you really don’t understand this then you have no idea what remorse feels like... which then proves my point.

It is easy to be sorry... it s easy to have regret... but remorse is an entirely different animal. People can easily experience sympathy ... empathy means you share the pain and when you are the cause of that pain and you really what you were capable of inflicting on another human being it can be overwhelming. And since you already know you are capable of complete selfishness... becoming empathetic requires the deepest kind of self examination. And let’s face it.... no one likes to see themselves as a monster.


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## MyRevelation

katies said:


> no one is saying this. In fact, I've read statistics that about 50% stay together and about 17% of those are happily reconciled. Different than 1%.


Yeah, but 17% of 50% is still just 8.5% of the total, which is a lot closer to 1% than a "majority". BTW, I'm not arguing with you, but emphasizing the original point being made to counter the claims of inmyprime.


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## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> Wayward spouses may stay for the same reasons but they don't deserve to be there.


So here is a small issue. We are in agreement, @sokillme, that many (even "the majority) of WSs are liars and unremorseful. We are also in agreement that the act of adultery--whether emotional or physical--has a natural consequence of killing the marriage. That is the state it is in: the old marriage has been destroyed. At that moment, "the way it was" will never be again. 

But I think where we may disagree is in this word "deserves." That is a verb and it means "do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment)." By doing an unfaithful act, the WS does not deserve to keep the old marriage "the way it was"... and for the many or majority who harden their heart, continue in adultery, and never change...they have acted in a way that is not worthy of remaining in a good marriage. But what about WS who realize it's wrong, stop of their own accord, and never do it again? It may or may not ever come up, and they clearly changed? And I am not talking about successful cover-up but rather the moral concept of one who changes and then acts in a way worthy of being in a good marriage. What do you think?

I think people don't "deserve" anything myself. I don't deserve losing a child or a husband. You didn't deserve to be cheated on. But I think we do have obligations that we volunteer for, and I do think we should be (and are) held to what we agreed to do voluntarily! I don't "deserve" any of the blessings I receive in life, but I receive them. I didn't "earn" them by learning how to be a better person or wife. If anyone ever deserved anything, it was Dear Hubby who deserved a long life loved by a good woman whom he put in the time and effort to build love with! But even he didn't "deserve" that in the sense that it's owed to him. Thinking of "deserving" is entitlement thinking, and that is exactly the way the majority of WSs think. 



> I said a marriage where your partner cheats on you is plan B. After all no one would plan to be in a marriage where their spouse cheated. If a BS was thinking correctly I don't think they would ever consider themselves a plan B to a WS. The WS by their actions don't merit having the BS be their plan anything. If they stay together it's a gift.


I completely agree it is a gift of great magnitude, but there you go again thinking that the BSs spend the remainder of their days unhappy, insecure, unloved in a true sense, and "second choice." I think that is YOUR head talking, not reality. In true reconciliation, the days are and can be HAPPY. It can take years, but security and trust can be built based on taking years to be where you say, doing what you said, with whom you said, being open and honest and transparent. Respect, caring, love, and affection can grow day-by-day-by-day! And trust me, if you are with someone whom you've loved for a long time, whom you took the time to make happy, whom you know well enough to know what makes them happy, whom you share yourself and your thoughts and feelings with, whom you respect and feel affection for...that is NOT "second choice"!



> The WS is lucky, and like I told @Affaircare lots of times the BS literally saves the WS's life. As you say you were very selfish. Who would you be as a person if your husband had dumped you? You probably would have been sorry but you would not have been remorseful or have grown as much as you have as a person? Would you have learned to love in an unselfish way? In that way would you have been able really understand love as deep as you do now? Selfish people really have a hard time with love. Because true love is the absence of selfishness. You may have gone through your whole life never experience love like that. Your husband could have moved on and met someone else who already understood these things.


My Dear Hubby had every right to dump me on the spot. Had he dumped me on the spot, I would have gotten my own little place, taken care of my own little self and life, and I am not positive if I would have grown the exact same way because I this is a guess and not what really happened. The dynamics of learning while alone vs. while in a relationship are different, so how would I have learned to build a foundation of friendship first without a friend? I don't know. But I do know that I knew I was wrong and that I needed to learn. I also know that I had THIRST to be better, on my own, with or without him. The fact he joined me on the journey and also learned about himself made the path that much sweeter. 

My point here is that I doubt I would be the exact same person I am today if things had not unfurled the way they did, but that is all "what if"--things DID unfurl the way they did, and for the gift he extended I'll be eternally grateful. I express that gratitude by being a better person. But yet again you completely discount the fact that I participated in saving HIS life. Before he met me, my Dear Hubby was an alcoholic, raising 5 kids by himself, struggling to keep a job and stave off depression. After we met and married I loved him for who he was. I helped support him and the family financially. I showed him in real ways that he was lovable and loved by enjoying his company. I lifted his spirits by listening to him and laughing with him. I teased him with Monty Python jokes and movie quotes we loved. I cared for him when he needed medical care. I guarded his modesty in the hospital. I defended HIM to his last breath. Now...did I hurt him? YOU BET in the most horrible of horrible ways. I did, and I'm deeply ashamed. Did I make his life better, both before the affair and after we rebuilt? YOU BET in the best of best ways. Does every WS get this and do this and live like this? Sadly no. Most choose to avoid looking in the mirror and lose it all.


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## Quality

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How hard is remorse though, really? Is it really that difficult to see the brutality of your actions and not feel guilty and ashamed as hell? If a person can't do that atleast, I have to question their humanity.Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning of 'remorse', but it seems pretty clear to me. If you don't have it immediately, I'm not sure if you are capable of it. Thats why I can't stand the term fog, it leave BS's waiting around for some mystical fog to lift instead of being proactive.


Can you give us personal examples of when you've wronged someone and, maybe, a list of your sins where you've been able to swiftly become remorseful, see the cruelty of your actions and feel guilty and ashamed?

I mean, I believe you may be a particular SI poster that had a revenge affair and are still dating the girl. Here you are a year plus later defending, encouraging, rationalizing and justifying adultery {of the revenge or healing nature} instead of understanding adultery is wrong, always and that relationships that start out in adultery aren't healthy relationships. Seemingly, to me, to be your own personal "fog".

I'm not perfect either or claiming myself to be 'fogless".

My point is only that repentance is a human struggle and repentance is a process that takes time.

It's not just waywards and|or cheaters that have difficulty with this.


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## hoblob

I find there is a ton of agreement between the posters here, but everyone is ignoring the points they agree on. I think it is clear that every story is individual. I think we can all agree that many people settle. Many people are afraid to step away. Some do it for their kids, some do it for money, some do it for selfish reasons, and some do it for love. 

Every relationship is different and complicated and every person's threshold differs. I also agree that sticking around when your SO isn't remorseful and doesn't beg you to stay with them is a problem. You shouldn't be the one to beg them to stay. You kick them out once they cheat. You clear your head and walk away from the situation. Perspective alone or with a friend is necessary after such a moment. You need to be selfish, after all, they were selfish. 

I look at my SO now and I can see that her remorse has grown. She knows she has to live with this for the rest of her life. She knows she caused me pain beyond belief. She understands that and it pains her all the time.
I don't think she would have matured the same way had we split up right after. I look at myself and the remorse and regret for my actions has also grown. I have matured to a certain degree after causing her pain as well. I wouldn't have matured the same way. Sometimes facing your issues together allows you to learn from them. We both had many walls up and every time we hurt each other, one wall would come down. Yeah, we were pathetic excuses for humans. I also don't advise anyone to stay with someone that will not see the error of their ways right away. If you cheat and you think that its the other person's fault, then you are a terrible person. You immediately own up to the **** up right after. The pick me dance for instance is the most humiliating thing that can be endured on top of the humiliation of being cheated on.

While we all have our red lines, each one's red line is different because every relationship dynamic is different. I've met women that love their husbands and cheat because it isn't being reciprocated. They would bend over backwards for them, but the husband has no care and treats them poorly, ignores, belittles them. In other cases, the husband does love and the women don't respect and use them for stability. 

I do think having posters tell others to gain self-respect and not be a welcome mat is important. Different perspectives are necessary to form a holistic view. I don't think its necessary to bash other people if they don't want to follow your advice. But I am against the SI view that R is the first step. It isn't. You taking care of yourself is the first step. Don't let someone walk all over you is the first step. Be selfish is the first step.


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## Mrs. John Adams

Ac.. I agree with you that had I never had an affair I doubt I would ever have become the person I am today. Is that a good thing? Well in some ways maybe. But everything costs... my wisdom cost my innocence.

Life does not ask us what we want sometimes. That’s the thing with infidelity. None of us would have chosen to be betrayed. But this world is filled with billions of people who have the same agenda we have... to live 

And none of us would chose bad things to happen to us. 

I made a choice for John... if I had asked him.. honey would you mind terribly if I have an affair? We all know his answer would have been uh no.

And he did not deserve my betrayal and I did not deserve his gift of forgiveness and reconciliation. 

So I also agree with you that none of us deserves some of the things that happen in life... good and bad.


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## StillSearching

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How hard is remorse though, really? Is it really that difficult to see the brutality of your actions and not feel guilty and ashamed as hell? If a person can't do that atleast, I have to question their humanity.Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning of 'remorse', but it seems pretty clear to me. If you don't have it immediately, I'm not sure if you are capable of it. Thats why I can't stand the term fog, it leave BS's waiting around for some mystical fog to lift instead of being proactive.


Real remorse is not hard for someone with empathy and happens quickly.
Also like to add that real remorse is forever. 
I see people on these forums say things like "I told him that I was sorry, i meant it, I'm not doing it again."
Real remorse lasts forever. If you are sorry and remorseful you can willing say it til you die.


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## Quality

personofinterest said:


> No, that I understand. Envy I understand. Someone saying they'd RATHER lose a child than be cheated on...nope. Walk all over me, betray me to the hilt, but I don't want my child to die.


Do you have a quote for that? I've never seen anyone indicate that they'd personally rather lose a child than experience marital betrayal. 

I know persons that have experienced both betrayal and the loss of a child that have indicated - AFTER THE FACT - that the betrayal was more personally damaging and harder to recover from than the loss of their child. I While I do not think I personally would agree with them were I to experience both, I can't deny their experiences and claims as valid for them.

Put it this way....I would willingly experience martial betrayal three times more if I could save the life of any one of our children. I'd probably volunteer to experience it again if I could be assured it would save the life of any particular known suffering child. But, obviously, nobody gets to make that choice.


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## BluesPower

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How hard is remorse though, really? Is it really that difficult to see the brutality of your actions and not feel guilty and ashamed as hell? If a person can't do that atleast, I have to question their humanity.Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning of 'remorse', but it seems pretty clear to me. If you don't have it immediately, I'm not sure if you are capable of it. Thats why I can't stand the term fog, it leave BS's waiting around for some mystical fog to lift instead of being proactive.


It is apparently really hard, that is why people caution others when they use the work inappropriately. 

MJA, her husband, and their situation is actually kind of unusual, while the infidelity is not unique. 

Now, she has not said how many years it too for her to achieve remorse, so I am guessing a while. Which makes her husband kind of unique in that a lot of men would not have waited that long. 

But remorse is when the WS actually manages to FEEL the pain that they caused in the BS, in this situation. 

Because when you love someone, and you can actually feel some of the pain that YOU caused, I can imaging that it is a horrific pain that she felt, and still feels. 

She is a rare one...

But I wonder if she realizes that as bad as the empathetic pain that she felt for her husband, is actually a small portion of what he actually felt. 

Don't get me wrong, if I knew that my Ex felt even some of the pain that I felt for the things she put me through, I might feel better about her. 

But most people never actually reach remorse, and those that do can appreciate the GIFT of reconciliation more because the start to realize how big of a gift it really was...


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## personofinterest

> While I do not think I personally would agree with them were I to experience both, I can't deny their experiences and claims as valid for them.


The above is the nugget of rationale that makes you, well, rational. People's feeling's just ARE, and it is not my place to invalidate them.

However, For me to INSIST that something MUST be some way because I felt it "or some author said it" is just plain ridiculous.

You have probably not encountered some of the strident, almost threatening dogma I have.


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> The bold statement above: you hold on to it and that's why there is absolutely nothing a WS can say or do because you will always come back to this statement (like a circular argument). Therefore I am not sure what your questions to waywards accomplish.
> 
> You are talking past each other as a result and not sure you both will come to any understanding.


I am not sure if they have to understand it completely. I can't understand what it feels like to be a parent whose child dies, that doesn't mean I can't have empathy and feel it in a deep way. WS need to have deep remorse and learn the ability to do better. Even I believe it's possible but it takes a lifetime of work and focus. If they do that then it's really up to the BS to decide if they wan to R. The problem is there is no way to know that for a long while. I just think that most of them don't even understand that they way they think is wrong. I think they think at worse they made a bad mistake, but it's not a mistake and it's more then a bad choice. What is is a problem of thinking. 

Mrs J seems to also believe this too.


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## Mrs. John Adams

Bp you are right it took me way too long and he was a saint to wait. Don’t get me wrong... when I confessed I immediately became transparent... and I was sorry I hurt him... and I knew I hurt him a lot... but until he was sure that I understood the magnitude of that pain... the actual mental anguish I caused him.. the physical symptoms he had... then he was afraid... afraid that I could do it again. He never wanted to hurt like that again. He needed to know I completely understood. 

And this is where it becomes difficult... 
I won’t argue with you that my pain I feel is nothing compared to his .. that’s like comparing giving birth. It all hurts and how can we say one hurt more than another? It’s personal. 

So let’s suffice to say I experienced it enough for him to know and believe that I will never do it again. 

I will never forget the day he knew I knew. I had my husband back... I had his whole heart again... a veil lifted from his eyes and his heart. We literally cried with joy. Because finally... we could love each other again with no shields.


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> But it's actually the majority that recover successfully from infidelity (according to statistics), not 1%!
> TAM may not be the best representative.


I have never seen any hard study on this. I have seen articles that state stats both ways. 50% of all marriage end in divorce. Then you have the question what is successful, lots of people who post how miserable on SI say they are successful. Usually when you see that stat it's on some site where they want you to buy their book or join there seminar.


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and if a wayward understands remorse..the ME disappears from the equation...which is why remorse is very difficult. I addressed this earlier but it bears repeating. If today....my husband needed to divorce me...I would give him the divorce with no fight. Because I love him unselfishly. I would lose everything....but if it is what he needs...it is what I must do.
> 
> How can I make YOU feel safe again...is NEVER the wrong question.....and if the wayward understands remorse....the betrayed will know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the question is sincere.
> 
> You see reconciliation is not the ultimate goal.....HEALING is. If reconciliation is part of the process...wonderful...but divorce can also be the best answer. You misconceive that reconciliation is the subject. The topic as far as I am concerned is remorse. Even if a couple divorces....they both need healing....and if a wayward understands remorse they can still help their betrayed to heal....
> 
> When I confessed my affair....I ended the conversation with this statement. I know you have to do what is best for you...and if you want to divorce me...I will ask for nothing.
> 
> Even then...when i had no clue what remorse is...i still understood that i had acted selfishly and i now had to put him first. I will admit...i was not successful in achieving that...I was still focused on my own pain.
> 
> Remorse is not possible until you can stop thinking about self...the focus has to be understanding the pain you caused....and there is no room for you in that endeavor. I cannot understand HIS pain if i am still absorbed in my own.
> 
> So if john had said...let me go...sad as it would make me...I would let him go....FOR HIM


This is my opinion also for affairs that aren't long term abuse. We will just agree to disagree on the long term abuse ones. I have given my reasons.


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## 269370

MyRevelation said:


> Next you'll be advising us that "you can have an even stronger/better M after an A".



You probably can actually. Thanks for reminding me.
Like any near extinction and highly traumatic event, if couples manage to survive them, it’s likely to make them stronger.

I do stand by my statement that a high proportion of couples R successfully. Nowhere near 1%. You are right it may not be more than 50% but it will be a healthy proportion. I will google some statistics later. I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that the majority of couples survive affairs and their relationship go on fine. How do you qualify whether R is ‘successful’ or not anyway? 

That’s not meant to minimise it. In terms of damage it can do to a relationship, I do agree with SKM, it’s pretty much up there. But it’s only one form of abuse and I’m not sure why everyone is so focused on it. I guess those stories on CWI are ‘inspiring’, in the wrong kind of way. When I first read them, I had similar reactions to Sokillme. I know and understand where he is coming from. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hoblob

sokillme said:


> I have never seen any hard study on this. I have seen articles that state stats both ways. 50% of all marriage end in divorce. Then you have the question what is successful, lots of people who post how miserable on SI say they are successful. Usually when you see that stat it's on some site where they want you to buy their book or join there seminar.


I don’t think studied on that exist. I don’t think anyone on here should rely on other people’s stories. Every story is different. Only cause it worked for Bob and Mary doesn’t mean it will work for you. R is hard and it’s filled with pitfalls. If one spouse is perfect and did everything right and the other is crap, I don’t see R working as well. 
I also think a lot of Rs are “im staying for the kids but I’ll be miserable, and if it weren’t for the kids, I’ll leave” I don’t like those. Leave. The kids feel the anger and resentment. This as a child of a parent that had an LTA. Better to be happy by yourself than miserable with someone else.


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## 269370

MyRevelation said:


> Yeah, but 17% of 50% is still just 8.5% of the total, which is a lot closer to 1% than a "majority". BTW, I'm not arguing with you, but emphasizing the original point being made to counter the claims of inmyprime.



8.5% is still 850% more than 1%. Are you trying to impress me with your maths skills? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I think my problem is that you seem to be hellbent on telling others to divorce and when they choose reconciliation ridicule them for their choice. You have lumped everyone into the same boxes.
> 
> I think the people come here searching for answers...but mostly they come here for support...regardless of their choice. If a poster wants to divorce...i do not try to talk them out of it. I support their decision. If a person chooses to reconcile...do you support them? or continue to tell them how it is the wrong decision?


Point out to me where I have ridiculed anyone. The worst I have said is I don't know how they do it. I have always said there are exceptions. 

As far as support goes, you are not supporting a person by telling a person who has repeatedly been cheated on that it's a good idea to go back to that cheaters. And you are probably not supporting a person by telling a person it's a good choice to go back to a person who had a LTA especially when it's done out of fear, or if you don't say anything. A better way to support them it to help them with the fear that is keeping them trapped with someone who has abused them so.


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I agree that the issue arises...when we project our own opinions and judgments onto others. Even if you go to a dr for an illness...while they have a list of symptoms and match those to ways to cure them....they have to understand that the chemical makeup of each patient is still individual.
> 
> Which is also the point i have been trying to make. Yes...infidelities are similar...yes many of the recommendations to aid in healing from those infidelities are similar....but each couple dynamic is different because of the two individuals involved. Divorce is the right answer for some....reconciliation is the right answer for some.....and both of those options apply to the individual couple. Some waywards will never achieve remorse....some betrayeds will never achieve healing......whether divorced or reconciled...but they live their lives the best way they can. They will always carry scars....that is a fact.....but they can still have peace and happiness....even though they have to settle. John and I have settled....why? Because the reality is that we both want the same thing...for it NEVER TO HAVE HAPPENED....and that is not possible. SO sometimes things happen in life that we simply cannot change.....
> 
> Obviously...divorce does not always provide healing....this forum is full of betrayed spouses who still struggle with anger and resentment and bitterness....and I am not criticizing it...I understand it. So obviously to scream divorce at every betrayed is not always a fool proof way of achieving healing.


So if a women wants to stay with a guy who continually beats her up and may eventually kill her is that OK? Should we just say, well that's her judgment and it's not my place to interfere? 

See the problem with that thinking is you ignore the person who is trapped in abuse. You say it's abuse but you don't address it like it is. There is not neutral point when there is ongoing abuse. The neutral point is passively accepting the abuse.


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## sokillme

katies said:


> no one is saying this. In fact, I've read statistics that about 50% stay together and about 17% of those are happily reconciled. Different than 1%.


Most of those BS would have a much happier life if they had divorced. They just don't know it.


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Upside down... how hard is it really to understand remorse? Well damn near impossible... it is not just understanding the emotion of betrayal... it is understanding the pain it caused. It requires empathy.. it requires placing yourself inside of that pain mentally so that you feel it yourself.
> 
> Let’s be real here a minute... cheaters like myself.. were capable of placing themselves above everything and everyone else. Nothing else mattered at that moment... it was all about you.
> 
> Now if you have a person capable of doing that... don’t you then think that just perhaps empathy might be difficult for them to experience?
> 
> And if you really don’t understand this then you have no idea what remorse feels like... which then proves my point.
> 
> It is easy to be sorry... it s easy to have regret... but remorse is an entirely different animal. People can easily experience sympathy ... empathy means you share the pain and when you are the cause of that pain and you really what you were capable of inflicting on another human being it can be overwhelming. And since you already know you are capable of complete selfishness... becoming empathetic requires the deepest kind of self examination. And let’s face it.... no one likes to see themselves as a monster.


But it's really not. Something is wrong if it is, I mean most of us post on here because we do to some extent. I am often struck when reading a post were the WS is very sorry, but it's still obvious that I feel more pain for their spouse then they do. There are things that WS write on boards that show they have little concept of what they did they would be embarrassed to put out there. Often times they look at their posts years later and are like, I can't believe I wrote that. That's what I am saying, WS are broken. It's also why I say being married to someone like that sucks because it's not just infidelity is a problem it's all manner of things that require empathy. It's kind of like a primary requirement when you are trying to share your life with someone. There is just better out there in most instances. Especially when even you admit in most cases these people are not going to change. Besides that even if they do you still have to do with living each day with someone who abused you and what that does to your psyche. I'm convinced that some people are just not going to heal when they have to live everyday with the person who inflicted the damage. What's wrong with saying that to a BS? It's the truth, the cheating can be an opportunity for them to find better. That has nothing to do with forgiving by the way, it's just about deciding how the rest of your life is going to be.


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## MJJEAN

sokillme said:


> So if a women wants to stay with a guy who continually beats her up and may eventually kill her is that OK? Should we just say, well that's her judgment and it's not my place to interfere?


Well, yes. Adults have the right to choose their own fate even when most people would disagree with their choice.


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## Quality

sokillme said:


> Most of those BS would have a much happier life if they had divorced. They just don't know it.


Happier smappier. 

I'd have been happy either way. 

In hindsight, I'm very pleased and content with the choices I made. 

My wife and I have been very fortunate.

And we aren't unique or special.


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## katies

sokillme said:


> Most of those BS would have a much happier life if they had divorced. They just don't know it.


But you would? That's a huge assumption.


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## personofinterest

sokillme said:


> So if a women wants to stay with a guy who continually beats her up and may eventually kill her is that OK? Should we just say, well that's her judgment and it's not my place to interfere?
> 
> See the problem with that thinking is you ignore the person who is trapped in abuse. You say it's abuse but you don't address it like it is. There is not neutral point when there is ongoing abuse. The neutral point is passively accepting the abuse.


My problem is that you are trying to make advising divorce a moral imperative.

It isn't.

No, it isn't.



> Most of those BS would have a much happier life if they had divorced. They just don't know it.


And this is just arrogance.


----------



## StillSearching

MJJEAN said:


> Well, yes. Adults have the right to choose their own fate even when most people would disagree with their choice.


How about adults like me who don't know that they are codependent and being abused for years?
It was not a choice for me until I went and got IC and was enlightened.
Then I choose to end it. 
So the line is not black and white.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> So here is a small issue. We are in agreement, @sokillme, that many (even "the majority) of WSs are liars and unremorseful. We are also in agreement that the act of adultery--whether emotional or physical--has a natural consequence of killing the marriage. That is the state it is in: the old marriage has been destroyed. At that moment, "the way it was" will never be again.
> 
> But I think where we may disagree is in this word "deserves." That is a verb and it means "do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment)." By doing an unfaithful act, the WS does not deserve to keep the old marriage "the way it was"... and for the many or majority who harden their heart, continue in adultery, and never change...they have acted in a way that is not worthy of remaining in a good marriage. But what about WS who realize it's wrong, stop of their own accord, and never do it again? It may or may not ever come up, and they clearly changed? And I am not talking about successful cover-up but rather the moral concept of one who changes and then acts in a way worthy of being in a good marriage. What do you think?
> 
> I think people don't "deserve" anything myself. I don't deserve losing a child or a husband. You didn't deserve to be cheated on. But I think we do have obligations that we volunteer for, and I do think we should be (and are) held to what we agreed to do voluntarily! I don't "deserve" any of the blessings I receive in life, but I receive them. I didn't "earn" them by learning how to be a better person or wife. If anyone ever deserved anything, it was Dear Hubby who deserved a long life loved by a good woman whom he put in the time and effort to build love with! But even he didn't "deserve" that in the sense that it's owed to him. Thinking of "deserving" is entitlement thinking, and that is exactly the way the majority of WSs think.
> 
> So I don't have the same problem with deserving then you do, but for your sake lets just say losing your marriage is the consequence of cheating even if deserving has noting to do with it. If you cheat the end result is you lose your marriage. That is what naturally will happen. The unnatural event is when the BS takes them back.
> 
> I completely agree it is a gift of great magnitude, but there you go again thinking that the BSs spend the remainder of their days unhappy, insecure, unloved in a true sense, and "second choice." I think that is YOUR head talking, not reality. In true reconciliation, the days are and can be HAPPY. It can take years, but security and trust can be built based on taking years to be where you say, doing what you said, with whom you said, being open and honest and transparent. Respect, caring, love, and affection can grow day-by-day-by-day! And trust me, if you are with someone whom you've loved for a long time, whom you took the time to make happy, whom you know well enough to know what makes them happy, whom you share yourself and your thoughts and feelings with, whom you respect and feel affection for...that is NOT "second choice"!
> 
> 
> 
> My Dear Hubby had every right to dump me on the spot. Had he dumped me on the spot, I would have gotten my own little place, taken care of my own little self and life, and I am not positive if I would have grown the exact same way because I this is a guess and not what really happened. The dynamics of learning while alone vs. while in a relationship are different, so how would I have learned to build a foundation of friendship first without a friend? I don't know. But I do know that I knew I was wrong and that I needed to learn. I also know that I had THIRST to be better, on my own, with or without him. The fact he joined me on the journey and also learned about himself made the path that much sweeter.
> 
> My point here is that I doubt I would be the exact same person I am today if things had not unfurled the way they did, but that is all "what if"--things DID unfurl the way they did, and for the gift he extended I'll be eternally grateful. I express that gratitude by being a better person. But yet again you completely discount the fact that I participated in saving HIS life. Before he met me, my Dear Hubby was an alcoholic, raising 5 kids by himself, struggling to keep a job and stave off depression. After we met and married I loved him for who he was. I helped support him and the family financially. I showed him in real ways that he was lovable and loved by enjoying his company. I lifted his spirits by listening to him and laughing with him. I teased him with Monty Python jokes and movie quotes we loved. I cared for him when he needed medical care. I guarded his modesty in the hospital. I defended HIM to his last breath. Now...did I hurt him? YOU BET in the most horrible of horrible ways. I did, and I'm deeply ashamed. Did I make his life better, both before the affair and after we rebuilt? YOU BET in the best of best ways. Does every WS get this and do this and live like this? Sadly no. Most choose to avoid looking in the mirror and lose it all.
> 
> 
> You're right here. I do discount what the WS can add to the persons life after there is healing. It's just that it so rare that I am not sure it's fair to give people the best case scenario. It it right to bring up lottery winners to someone who is struggling financially but wasting money on tickets? Now if your read my posts you know that I want people with the opposite opinion to post on the thread I post on. I advocated for even Quality being here. Though not so much anymore. I think it's important to hear both sides. It's just the marriage at all cost who continue to attack me and others and some have even tried to force us being banned. And continually wine about divorced men who are bitter and pro-divorce and all that crap, how we have no right to say what we do.


----------



## sokillme

Quality said:


> Do you have a quote for that? I've never seen anyone indicate that they'd personally rather lose a child than experience marital betrayal.
> 
> I know persons that have experienced both betrayal and the loss of a child that have indicated - AFTER THE FACT - that the betrayal was more personally damaging and harder to recover from than the loss of their child. I While I do not think I personally would agree with them were I to experience both, I can't deny their experiences and claims as valid for them.
> 
> Put it this way....I would willingly experience martial betrayal three times more if I could save the life of any one of our children. I'd probably volunteer to experience it again if I could be assured it would save the life of any particular known suffering child. But, obviously, nobody gets to make that choice.


This is like arguing is it better to cut off your arm or your leg. Both suck.


----------



## StillSearching

So with my years of experience with WW then R (2001), WW then R(2009), WW then R (2017), WW working R ... Busted DDay 3/1/2018, FILED Signed papers
@sokillme, If I get what you are saying, " If you cheat the end result is you lose your marriage. That is what naturally will happen. The unnatural event is when the BS takes them back.",
That once there is infidelity the innocence of marriage is gone, thus the marriage is gone? PERIOD.
I agree. My marriage truly ended on 12/27/2001---DDay 1/9/2002


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Skm... so much for me to cover

First I do not generally give advice on any forum except this one... so while you keep trying to make me give you an opinion about physical abuse ... I keep trying to tell you I don’t go there. I don’t have any experience in an abusive marriage. Other than my being snusive to John by cheating. And you and I both agree I was a monster.

You will find I only comment where I think my experience and knowledge can apply. 

I don’t go to any forum but this one... I don’t give advice to people that I cannot actually relate to. 

I don’t follow around trolls and play their games. 

I know you don’t know me... are you learning anything yet? 

So let’s agree to stop with the abusive relationship crap shall we? 

And as far as remorse goes... for those of you who have never experienced it or seen it... you are not going to understand. And clearly you don’t.

I have tried to answer your very personal questions as honestly as I can. I feel like you try to trip me up or judge me so it makes me quite defensive. Why? Because I reveal way too much and become very vulnerable. 

Notice.. I have asked you no personal questions. 

I am going to repeat this because I want you to understand. I agree with you on many points. Although I think you have tunnel vision and are not open to any other opinions that could actually be right. 

Infidelity issues are not black and white.. there is no one size fits all answer for everybody. 

Open your mind to this possibility.. perhaps there are wayward s out there.... and let’s narrow this down even further.. 

There are wayward out there who had long term affairs... who can successfully acheive remorse and can have successful reconciliations. I personally know many.

All waywRds are not alike all betrayed are not alike all marriages are not alike all divorces are not alike all reconciliations are not alike. Why are they different? Because they involve different people. Yes there are similarities. We are all humans. But none of us have the same fingerprint. 

I am beginning to understand you and your quirkiness... that in itself is scary !!!! Lol

And nothing that I say to you is meant in a condescending or insulting way. 

This thread has been enlightening to me.


----------



## sokillme

katies said:


> But you would? That's a huge assumption.


I know, I am just busting chops here. It is what I believe, but I don't know it to be true.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Quality said:


> Can you give us personal examples of when you've wronged someone and, maybe, a list of your sins where you've been able to swiftly become remorseful, see the cruelty of your actions and feel guilty and ashamed?
> 
> I mean, I believe you may be a particular SI poster that had a revenge affair and are still dating the girl. Here you are a year plus later defending, encouraging, rationalizing and justifying adultery {of the revenge or healing nature} instead of understanding adultery is wrong, always and that relationships that start out in adultery aren't healthy relationships. Seemingly, to me, to be your own personal "fog".
> 
> I'm not perfect either or claiming myself to be 'fogless".
> 
> My point is only that repentance is a human struggle and repentance is a process that takes time.
> 
> It's not just waywards and|or cheaters that have difficulty with this.


I think you have me mixed up. Although I use to post on SI some, I had a revenge ONS (I can't really call it revenge since like I said before my ex was remorseless). I'm in a LTR now, but that started after divorce.

Am I guilty or foggy because of the R-ONS, not at all, my ex was checked out and wanted a divorce, so I didn't really care nor as I found, did she. I wanted to hurt her, but I couldn't. Maybe the order was wrong. Maybe I should have filed for divorce and then had the ONS, instead of having the ONS and then filed. Whatever, same result.

Now if I was the one who had been the one to initially cheat and blow up the marriage, then yea, I would feel like a pile of stinking shat, even if I no longer loved her. I don't have much empathy for people that shat on me though. I don't see why I should. Maybe you do...thats not me.


----------



## sokillme

MJJEAN said:


> Well, yes. Adults have the right to choose their own fate even when most people would disagree with their choice.


So the husband put her in the hospital and she comes on here saying how she doesn't know what to do but he seem terribly sorry so she is thinking of staying with him, if the response to this was, "well some people change, it's possible. Some even have a better marriage." Is that response a morally appropriate one?


----------



## hoblob

StillSearching said:


> So with my years of experience with WW then R (2001), WW then R(2009), WW then R (2017), WW working R ... Busted DDay 3/1/2018, FILED Signed papers
> @sokillme, If I get what you are saying, " If you cheat the end result is you lose your marriage. That is what naturally will happen. The unnatural event is when the BS takes them back.",
> That once there is infidelity the innocence of marriage is gone, thus the marriage is gone? PERIOD.
> I agree. My marriage truly ended on 12/27/2001---DDay 1/9/2002


Wow. Are you going to go through with the divorce. She clearly doesn’t care for you? I mean, why on earth didn’t you step out on her?


----------



## StillSearching

hoblob said:


> Wow. Are you going to go through with the divorce. She clearly doesn’t care for you? I mean, why on earth didn’t you step out on her?


I don't want to hijack, out of repect for Sokillme... but yes I am.
I loved her. I was codependent. I knew she was ill. Our business was lucrative. 3 kids are grown now. 
I wanted to be the rock in the house for my kids.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> No, that I understand. Envy I understand. Someone saying they'd RATHER lose a child than be cheated on...nope. Walk all over me, betray me to the hilt, but I don't want my child to die.
> 
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that you are feeling your personal experience. My problem is when a group says "You MUST feel/think/talk/do this exactly as this cookie cutter prescribes."



There’s NO WAY I would choose child or anyone getting sick over infidelity. That’s a silly comparison. If someone’s health depended on it, i would personally insert the other man’s penis into wife. 


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## MEM2020

I have to augment my list of affair related risks from my earlier post. Need to include a line item called: Fatal attraction scenario

That said - most affairs don’t physically put the betrayed spouse in harms way. Not nearly as much as say being married to someone who is an aggressive/dangerous driver. 

—————
The post below makes a false equivalence. It equates violent criminal behavior: assault / homicide with - behavior that isn’t criminal. Worse it implies that the betrayed is a prisoner in the marriage not an adult with agency and autonomy.

And trapped is a highly relative term. Is someone trapped if they need a month or two to create an exit plan? I’d say no. 

So what you are doing here is you are grossly exaggerating the criminality of the offense and implying that the betrayed is also a victim of an all powerful spouse. 

Shrinks call this type of cognitive process: catastrophizing 

That’s what you seem to be doing here. 



sokillme said:


> So if a women wants to stay with a guy who continually beats her up and may eventually kill her is that OK? Should we just say, well that's her judgment and it's not my place to interfere?
> 
> See the problem with that thinking is you ignore the person who is trapped in abuse. You say it's abuse but you don't address it like it is. There is not neutral point when there is ongoing abuse. The neutral point is passively accepting the abuse.


----------



## StillSearching

inmyprime said:


> There’s NO WAY I would choose child or *anyone getting sick* over infidelity. That’s a silly comparison. If someone’s health depended on it, i would personally insert the other man’s penis into wife.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not feeling well. Would you kindly insert OM penis into your wife.


----------



## StillSearching

MEM2020 said:


> I have to augment my list of affair related risks from my earlier post. Need to include a line item called: Fatal attraction scenario
> 
> That said - *most affairs don’t physically put the betrayed spouse in harms way*. Not nearly as much as say being married to someone who is an aggressive/dangerous driver.
> 
> —————
> The post below makes a false equivalence. It equates violent criminal behavior: assault / homicide with - behavior that isn’t criminal. Worse it implies that the betrayed is a prisoner in the marriage not an adult with agency and autonomy.
> 
> And trapped is a highly relative term. Is someone trapped if they need a month or two to create an exit plan? I’d say no.
> 
> So what you are doing here is you are grossly exaggerating the criminality of the offense and implying that the betrayed is also a victim of an all powerful spouse.
> 
> Shrinks call this type of cognitive process: catastrophizing
> 
> That’s what you seem to be doing here.


 I beg to differ.
I nearly died of a 90% blocked LAD on my heart.
Stress is a bi***!


----------



## 269370

Quality said:


> Do you have a quote for that? I've never seen anyone indicate that they'd personally rather lose a child than experience marital betrayal.
> 
> 
> 
> I know persons that have experienced both betrayal and the loss of a child that have indicated - AFTER THE FACT - that the betrayal was more personally damaging and harder to recover from than the loss of their child. I While I do not think I personally would agree with them were I to experience both, I can't deny their experiences and claims as valid for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Put it this way....I would willingly experience martial betrayal three times more if I could save the life of any one of our children. I'd probably volunteer to experience it again if I could be assured it would save the life of any particular known suffering child. But, obviously, nobody gets to make that choice.




Now there’s ‘two of me’ here as well 


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## MEM2020

1. You can not quantify the discrete contributions of:
A. Cardiovascular genetics
B. Psychological predisposition to anxiety/over response to life stressors
C. Your lifestyle choices: diet, exercise and sleep
D. Her NET behavioral contribution to your stress level

As for D - the word NET is highlighted for a reason. No one has ever relaxed me like M2 has via back lengthy back massages, back scratching sessions, long full body hugs, sex, full body laughter at her delightful spontaneous observations. 

And no one has ever made me as tense and angry as M2 sometimes does. 






StillSearching said:


> I beg to differ.
> I nearly died of a 90% blocked LAD on my heart.
> Stress is a bi***!


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I am not sure if they have to understand it completely. I can't understand what it feels like to be a parent whose child dies, that doesn't mean I can't have empathy and feel it in a deep way.



That’s a good point. however there are degrees of empathy. Of course you will feel some empathy towards any situation however your empathy will be amplified if you yourself experienced a certain situation.
It’s just how we are wired. Even though we feel there should be some sort of ‘universal standard’ of how much empathy is required for any given situation, it’s really not the case. The mind is biased and picks some situations over others, depending on what happened to them. (Case in point: someone choosing death of their child over their wife getting some penis. Totally bonkers.)



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## 269370

sokillme said:


> I am not sure if they have to understand it completely. I can't understand what it feels like to be a parent whose child dies, that doesn't mean I can't have empathy and feel it in a deep way. WS need to have deep remorse and learn the ability to do better. Even I believe it's possible but it takes a lifetime of work and focus. If they do that then it's really up to the BS to decide if they wan to R. The problem is there is no way to know that for a long while. I just think that most of them don't even understand that they way they think is wrong. I think they think at worse they made a bad mistake, but it's not a mistake and it's more then a bad choice. What is is a problem of thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs J seems to also believe this too.




Yes but again: are you talking about a specific case or in general? Because everyone will have a different thought process. You seem to be drilling into the completely hypothetical mind of a particular cheater or cheater ‘type’ (if you can call it that; I’m not sure you can) and then projecting it on all. 
Of course it’s a bloody risk to R. Statistics are also clear on that. But people go through **** sometimes together. Some come out the other end stronger. Some just picked the wrong person. Some just didn’t realise they didn’t love the person...I can give a gazillion reasons for a cheater to cheat and gazillion more for the betrayed spouse to be cheated on.


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----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I have never seen any hard study on this. I have seen articles that state stats both ways. 50% of all marriage end in divorce. Then you have the question what is successful, lots of people who post how miserable on SI say they are successful. Usually when you see that stat it's on some site where they want you to buy their book or join there seminar.



Yes most agree that it’s AT LEAST 50% in marriages that end in divorce. Not all of them due to cheating by any means.
Which is another thing: most marriage are actually not that happy and each marriage has some kind of issues. So it’s questionable whether it’s reasonable to judge on the metric that R was a success on the basis that it’s a ‘happy marriage’ after that (because most aren’t to begin with, even without the cheating).


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----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> Most of those BS would have a much happier life if they had divorced. They just don't know it.



But how can YOU possibly know it? You are not them. You are so convinced that you do...
This usually happens when we don’t have enough ‘data points’. You are using your ‘gut instinct’ to make that assessment with very little info to go by.


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----------



## Imajerk17

I have yet to read this whole thread. But several of the threads from the BHs are just horrible to read. Anyway, this is my take.

1. It is much easier for women to "fall into" an affair than it is for our gender. When it comes to relationships we men are the initiators. She doesn't have to go looking for one to end up in one, as she will get hit on by her male coworkers, her male friends, her husband's "friends", even people working on her house!

2. Women really are prone to following a man's lead. Oftentimes whether it is a good idea or not. A guy can hit on a married woman and oftentimes she'll find herself in an affair with him even if she didn't like the guy that much. I sometimes suspect that many women don't like this about themselves--at least when it got them into trouble--and feel the need to work it out in therapy. [Whereas our gender can be dogs when it comes to physical attractiveness in the opposite gender, but I don't think we feel the same need to analyse it with a counselor.]

3. We as human beings tend to act more in our self-image than our self-interest. We all tend to want to think of ourselves as strong, brave, adventurous, a force of nature, ect. We may dream of getting to enjoy the easy life one day, but when it comes down to it perhaps that isn't what we really want. But maybe this may explain why a woman may cheat on her husband who has everything and who gives her everything, with a dude with lots and lots of problems. By being with her AP she can see herself as this brave heroine who can look past surface stuff, and be this lover and healer.


----------



## I shouldnthave

sokillme said:


> Most of those BS would have a much happier life if they had divorced. They just don't know it.





inmyprime said:


> But how can YOU possibly know it? You are not them. You are so convinced that you do...
> This usually happens when we don’t have enough ‘data points’. You are using your ‘gut instinct’ to make that assessment with very little info to go by.



Yeah kinda hard to make such over reaching statements about people, complex situations, and lives that you know nothing about. I am 100% certain I would not be happier throwing away my relationship of 16 years over a BJ my husband got on a business trip 7 years ago. 

I am thrilled with the relationship we have today. Its amazing how often perfect strangers will comment about how its obvious how in love we are. Seriously... people come up to us and comment, and its not like we are putting on a show, we are being us. 

Now sure, there are couples that shouldn't stay together.... but you just can't paint situations that are so incredibly diverse with such a broad stroke. 

I am not sure what good that does anyway..... to judge other people and concern yourself in what they should be doing -unless they asked for your advice of course.


----------



## ConanHub

MEM2020 said:


> 1. You can not quantify the discrete contributions of:
> A. Cardiovascular genetics
> B. Psychological predisposition to anxiety/over response to life stressors
> C. Your lifestyle choices: diet, exercise and sleep
> D. Her NET behavioral contribution to your stress level
> 
> As for D - the word NET is highlighted for a reason. No one has ever relaxed me like M2 has via back lengthy back massages, back scratching sessions, long full body hugs, sex, full body laughter at her delightful spontaneous observations.
> 
> And no one has ever made me as tense and angry as M2 sometimes does.


Cheaters absolutely risk the physical health of their spouses by exposing them to more (unknown) sex partners, definitely increasing the chances of contracting diseases.

The fatal attraction aspect happens quite a bit with the AP wanting to harm, sometimes physically, the BS or family of the BS.

It is at least emotional abuse if not physical but I understand your qualms with comparisons to direct, physical abuse of a spouse.


----------



## ConanHub

Any AP would certainly be risking their health to intrude in my garden.

Affairs absolutely risk health.😈


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

MEM2020 said:


> I have to augment my list of affair related risks from my earlier post. Need to include a line item called: Fatal attraction scenario
> 
> That said - most affairs don’t physically put the betrayed spouse in harms way. Not nearly as much as say being married to someone who is an aggressive/dangerous driver.


Tell that to those people that get STDs because their spouse screws around on them. Then the dude who ends up thinking he is bio dad to his kids, only to realize years later that he isn't. Or those that maime/murder AP and/or spouse or BS's committing suicide themselves. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it is without victims. And it has been illegal throughout history and even punishable by death. But yea, you can leave them, once the damage has been done without your prior consent.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm... so much for me to cover
> 
> First I do not generally give advice on any forum except this one... so while you keep trying to make me give you an opinion about physical abuse ... I keep trying to tell you I don’t go there. I don’t have any experience in an abusive marriage. Other than my being snusive to John by cheating. And you and I both agree I was a monster.
> 
> You will find I only comment where I think my experience and knowledge can apply.
> 
> I don’t go to any forum but this one... I don’t give advice to people that I cannot actually relate to.
> 
> I don’t follow around trolls and play their games.
> 
> I know you don’t know me... are you learning anything yet?
> 
> So let’s agree to stop with the abusive relationship crap shall we?
> 
> Nope I think that is what a LTA is in a relationship, or someone who repeatedly cheats on their spouse. That's just me.
> 
> And as far as remorse goes... for those of you who have never experienced it or seen it... you are not going to understand. And clearly you don’t.
> 
> Why do you say that? I think you description of that is correct.
> 
> I have tried to answer your very personal questions as honestly as I can. I feel like you try to trip me up or judge me so it makes me quite defensive. Why? Because I reveal way too much and become very vulnerable.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel this way, that was not my intent. I actually think you are a good person.
> 
> Notice.. I have asked you no personal questions.
> 
> Feel free as long as it doesn't compromise people I love I am happy to answer. I do have a stalker on here though so I have to be careful.
> 
> I am going to repeat this because I want you to understand. I agree with you on many points. Although I think you have tunnel vision and are not open to any other opinions that could actually be right.
> 
> Infidelity issues are not black and white.. there is no one size fits all answer for everybody.
> 
> When it comes to abuse somethings are. My "tunnel vision" is with a subset of these situations.
> 
> Open your mind to this possibility.. perhaps there are wayward s out there.... and let’s narrow this down even further..
> 
> There are wayward out there who had long term affairs... who can successfully acheive remorse and can have successful reconciliations. I personally know many.
> 
> All waywRds are not alike all betrayed are not alike all marriages are not alike all divorces are not alike all reconciliations are not alike. Why are they different? Because they involve different people. Yes there are similarities. We are all humans. But none of us have the same fingerprint.
> 
> I am beginning to understand you and your quirkiness... that in itself is scary !!!! Lol
> 
> Nothing to be scared of. I am not trying to scare you, I am also a bit of an ass on here I admit.
> 
> And nothing that I say to you is meant in a condescending or insulting way.
> 
> Same is true here.
> 
> This thread has been enlightening to me.
> 
> Me too actually.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> I have to augment my list of affair related risks from my earlier post. Need to include a line item called: Fatal attraction scenario
> 
> That said - most affairs don’t physically put the betrayed spouse in harms way. Not nearly as much as say being married to someone who is an aggressive/dangerous driver.
> 
> —————
> The post below makes a false equivalence. It equates violent criminal behavior: assault / homicide with - behavior that isn’t criminal. Worse it implies that the betrayed is a prisoner in the marriage not an adult with agency and autonomy.
> 
> And trapped is a highly relative term. Is someone trapped if they need a month or two to create an exit plan? I’d say no.
> 
> So what you are doing here is you are grossly exaggerating the criminality of the offense and implying that the betrayed is also a victim of an all powerful spouse.
> 
> Shrinks call this type of cognitive process: catastrophizing
> 
> That’s what you seem to be doing here.


I don't agree abuse is abuse, just because it doesn't break the law or you don't see the bruises doesn't make it any less abusive.


----------



## sokillme

I shouldnthave said:


> Yeah kinda hard to make such over reaching statements about people, complex situations, and lives that you know nothing about. I am 100% certain I would not be happier throwing away my relationship of 16 years over a BJ my husband got on a business trip 7 years ago.
> 
> I am thrilled with the relationship we have today. Its amazing how often perfect strangers will comment about how its obvious how in love we are. Seriously... people come up to us and comment, and its not like we are putting on a show, we are being us.
> 
> Now sure, there are couples that shouldn't stay together.... but you just can't paint situations that are so incredibly diverse with such a broad stroke.
> 
> I am not sure what good that does anyway..... to judge other people and concern yourself in what they should be doing -unless they asked for your advice of course.


It was a joke.


----------



## BluesPower

ConanHub said:


> Any AP would certainly be risking their health to intrude in my garden.
> 
> Affairs absolutely risk health.😈


Funny you should say that, well not really funny...

A woman in Delaware broke into a woman's home today, cleaned up the break-in mess, waited for her husbands AP to get home... and shot her in the head with a .357 and then killed herself. 

The woman's husband must have had a text from wife, or was going to screw AP, and he called the scene in to the police...

Wow... Why not shoot her husband????


----------



## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> Funny you should say that, well not really funny...
> 
> A woman in Delaware broke into a woman's home today, cleaned up the break-in mess, waited for her husbands AP to get home... and shot her in the head with a .357 and then killed herself.
> 
> The woman's husband must have had a text from wife, or was going to screw AP, and he called the scene in to the police...
> 
> Wow... Why not shoot her husband????


She wanted her husband to suffer.


----------



## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> Give you a real world example. M2 fell in love with Dan back in 2011. Right on the ragged edge of jumping into bed with him. Confessed the whole thing 6 months after they stopped working together. Claims they never slept together. I believe her since the confession itself was entirely voluntary. That said - if I had to choose between her having had safe sex with Dan for a few months vs wiping us out financially, it is an easy if painful choice.


To be fair, sometimes these things go hand in hand: an affair/divorce can easily result in bankruptcy...

I wonder why she confessed...I am usually of the opinion that if you can 'take care' of the problem yourself, then do it, without potentially burdening the spouse. This would just raise lots of questions (though in your case, it obviously didn't).


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> She wanted her husband to suffer.


5 to 1 odds that he moves onto another bimbo within the month...


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> 5 to 1 odds that he moves onto another bimbo within the month...


So true, the other bimbo he has been cheating on his wife AND HIS LOVER with. >


----------



## MEM2020

She confessed because she felt guilt I made a comment - which was a catalyst - and she was pretty sure I would forgive her. 

I still remember the morning she confessed. 

I will find my thread and link to it. 

Very valid point on the cost of divorce. Would have cut each of us in half financially. 

Still - very different than total asset erasure. 

Totally sincere though - 3 months of PA vs having 20+ years of savings erased - total no brainer. 





inmyprime said:


> To be fair, sometimes these things go hand in hand: an affair/divorce can easily result in bankruptcy...
> 
> I wonder why she confessed...I am usually of the opinion that if you can 'take care' of the problem yourself, then do it, without potentially burdening the spouse. This would just raise lots of questions (though in your case, it obviously didn't).


----------



## ConanHub

MEM2020 said:


> She confessed because she felt guilt I made a comment - which was a catalyst - and she was pretty sure I would forgive her.
> 
> I still remember the morning she confessed.
> 
> I will find my thread and link to it.
> 
> Very valid point on the cost of divorce. Would have cut each of us in half financially.
> 
> Still - very different than total asset erasure.
> 
> Totally sincere though - 3 months of PA vs having 20+ years of savings erased - total no brainer.


I would agree if she wasn't also having sex with me, do to risk of disease and serious yuk factor, and divorcing her cheating ass would definitely be less expensive than losing everything.


----------



## ConanHub

BluesPower said:


> Funny you should say that, well not really funny...
> 
> A woman in Delaware broke into a woman's home today, cleaned up the break-in mess, waited for her husbands AP to get home... and shot her in the head with a .357 and then killed herself.
> 
> The woman's husband must have had a text from wife, or was going to screw AP, and he called the scene in to the police...
> 
> Wow... Why not shoot her husband????


Yup. Not my style but not surprising at all.

People have to be less intelligent than celery to think that screwing someone else's mate couldn't net them an early grave or serious wound.


----------



## MJJEAN

sokillme said:


> So the husband put her in the hospital and she comes on here saying how she doesn't know what to do but he seem terribly sorry so she is thinking of staying with him, if the response to this was, "well some people change, it's possible. Some even have a better marriage." Is that response a morally appropriate one?


No, the response is to say something along the lines of "He's probably going to beat you again, but if you want to stay that's on you."

And, yes, I have actually said that to more than one woman irl. The most recent being my brothers partner. He's hit her. He's cheated on her. She's had offers from me, my sister, and even our father to help her. We've all said we'd give her a place to live and protection until she can get on her feet. She refuses to leave him. That's on her. She's an adult, she's made her choice, and that's her business. I think she's a flaming moron, but she's got the right to be a flaming moron.


----------



## drifting on

@sokillme, I said I would post here if I could find the right words. I hope my message is not as murky as my words may seem to be. 

When my wife cheated I was thrown into infidelity, I am the type that needs to know why, but I believe you will never truly know why. I don’t think that waywards are too weak to say why, some can and will tell you why, but I think that for most betrayeds you will never get that answer. In this case it was asked of @scuba Steve why his wife had an affair, with that of a much older OM than the typical affair. Please, if you are older I’m not trying to insult anyone, just stating opinion and facts. Regrettably, my wife’s affair was with that of a much older OM, that stung, as if her affair were with someone her age I could attribute to she was no longer loving me. Simple, right? Not so.

I had to sort through daddy issues, her infidelity, and everything else that came with this. My wife could not have loved me when in an affair, let’s rephrase that, my wife could not have been in love with me during the affair. It is possible to love many people, parents, family, kids come to mind, but if you are in love that’s different. Separation of the many different loves was difficult, I came to the realization that my wife wasn’t in love with me, yet we slept together each night. Many more realizations began to come to me, that I wasn’t as good a husband or person that I thought I was. I had flaws too, I wasn’t perfect, and that I needed to do work on me. Please do not think I am saying the BS is at fault for an affair, I’m not, but they weren’t perfect either. 

My line of thinking was that if I became a better person, the why would explain itself to me. To a certain extent it has, albeit it is a very small explanation. Some may say because waywards are selfish, it’s their true self, because they could, because they wanted to, because they are capable, and the list goes on. But does that really explain why? No. There has to be much more to infidelity and why some are willing to bomb their marriage over something I find so minimal. Truth is I have my opinions, but nothing that you could say is evidence. Even though it appears there is a script WS follow, each WS is their own person, own feelings, own emotions. Why do they all appear to follow the same script? I have come to the conclusion that they follow a script or don’t for one reason, salvation. 

When reality begins to hit a wayward spouse it shakes them up, disturbs them, and self preservation mode kicks in. When they see how the betrayed is hurt they protect the betrayed. Trickle truth, deception is all used to spare the betrayed, but I also think it is to protect themselves also. The horrible reality is setting in, and they can’t see themselves as capable, that they actually did this. Now add in that the betrayed views them as damaged, dirty, cruel, weak, selfish, its more then they can bear. Truly remorseful WS will tell all and be as transparent as possible, but it won’t get you the why. 

Another conclusion I have come to is that some don’t really know why. I think waywards want to keep the why to themselves, that is the part of the affair that no BS has a right to know. I would wager that a high number of WS have kept some of the affair private from the BS. In my case, how does my wife explain to me that she found an OM twenty five years her senior attractive? Now I’m pretty down to earth, joke around a lot, sarcastic and considered to be quite funny by friends and family. In therapy I joked that her affair had me thinking of the movie big daddy, even though there was no six year plan. So imagine having to explain that in a way that doesn’t just scream stupid, you can’t. Therefore, that gets filed in the private file of the affair. They already have shame and stupidity feelings, they aren’t going to keep adding to that pile. 

So you have a WS who has just nuked everything in their life, they have no idea what is going to be at the end of the day. It reminds me of excuses I get from criminals, and I get some pretty good responses. Yet they aren’t thought out, they don’t see the stupidity of the excuse, but once told they have to keep going with it. When you press them enough, then they may change their story altogether and admit they lied. However, that story is no better then the first. My buddy got married and the ex-husband of his new wife was harassing them. They lived in a small town about two miles from the main road in town, totally desolate around them. The ex came down and broke into his ex-wife’s car. Had almost cleaned the entire car out when he gets caught half way from his car to my buddy’s house walking and carrying her belongings. The cop stops him and he tells the cop he heard a funny noise coming from his car and pulled over to rearrange the items in the trunk. Unbelievably he told the judge the same story, the judge replied, you drive off a main road, with multiple gas stations, to a dark desolate area, to rearrange the times in your trunk, which were not your items but your wife’s, and expect me to believe you? The next word the judge spoke was “guilty”. 

People make bad choices, then tell bad lies, and from there it spirals out of their control. They are desperate to keep any resemblance to what their life was before, just as some BS can be just as desperate to keep their life. I find the situation to be both complex and simple, if that makes any sense at all. We are all human, we all have flaws, we all make bad choices, we try to be a good person. Sadly not all humans are good, some are bad, and I’m sure some feel my wife is one of the worst with what she did. I can’t argue that, I can only look at what she did, look at her actions to change, and then look at her now to what she has become. 
@sokillme, @Truthseeker, I know what you both have told me on how you feel about my wife. I know how @ConanHub, feels about my situation after our talks, but you can only go by my posts. I have offered this website to my wife, to post if she would like, it’s my transparency to her. She has declined my invitation, she has declined to read any of my posts, but she has read posts I’ve given to her from here. My wife has said that I should have this, this is my safe area so to speak, and what she knows of here is what I have told her. She knows who I am friends with on Facebook, who I have communicated with in private messages here, that I have had private messages with a WS. She knows I will help anyone I can here, just as she helps people through her employment. This is all communicated with each other, and mutually agreed upon before we interact or respond. 

The truth to me is that scuba, myself, and most other betrayeds, will never ever get the full truth on why. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt, but the why will be forever elusive. 

On a side note, my wife was just recognized for saving another’s life. This was how she was pre-affair, and as her husband I couldn’t be more proud of her. People can change, people can make bad decisions and then become good again. My wife’s actions made me weak, destroyed, devastated and damn near killed me. Four years out from d-day and I couldn’t be more proud of her both towards infidelity and as a human being. I’m happy again, maybe a tad more sarcastic, but I’m happy, as is my wife who has done so much hard work.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

As a WW...I am going to tell you something. The only reason I can give as to why...is because i wanted to. That's the plain and simple truth. Why did I want to? Now that gets complicated...I had the opportunity, I was unhappy, I was feeling insecure, I convinced myself my husband no longer cared, I became selfish. I could break all those things down into more "reasons" why. But then it begins to sound like excuses and validations...and I don't want to do that. 

So is it possible for a betrayed to accept the answer...simple as it is...because i wanted to? Probably not...because you still want to get inside your Waywards head and try to pick apart the why...and I understand that. The more information you have the better you think you will understand it and "be prepared" for the signs of it happening again.

Unfortunately...until you have seen remorse....I am not sure you can ever "trust with reservation". Yes....John trusts me with reservation....and what i mean by that is this....he trusts me...but I don't believe it is possible to trust 100% with the same kind of blind trust you have before infidelity. You already know that ANYTHING is possible...so you cannot possibly have innocent trust again.

Anyway....I think WHY is such a difficult question....and I think we have to change the question from WHY to WHAT....what can we do now to repair the damage that the infidelity has done? What can we do to help each other rebuild trust? What can we do to make each other feel safe? What can we do to make sure neither of us has to go through this again?

I hope this gives you something to think about...and mostly I hope it gives you some peace.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> @sokillme, I said I would post here if I could find the right words. I hope my message is not as murky as my words may seem to be.
> 
> When my wife cheated I was thrown into infidelity, I am the type that needs to know why, but I believe you will never truly know why. I don’t think that waywards are too weak to say why, some can and will tell you why, but I think that for most betrayeds you will never get that answer. In this case it was asked of @scuba Steve why his wife had an affair, with that of a much older OM than the typical affair. Please, if you are older I’m not trying to insult anyone, just stating opinion and facts. Regrettably, my wife’s affair was with that of a much older OM, that stung, as if her affair were with someone her age I could attribute to she was no longer loving me. Simple, right? Not so.
> 
> I had to sort through daddy issues, her infidelity, and everything else that came with this. My wife could not have loved me when in an affair, let’s rephrase that, my wife could not have been in love with me during the affair. It is possible to love many people, parents, family, kids come to mind, but if you are in love that’s different. Separation of the many different loves was difficult, I came to the realization that my wife wasn’t in love with me, yet we slept together each night. Many more realizations began to come to me, that I wasn’t as good a husband or person that I thought I was. I had flaws too, I wasn’t perfect, and that I needed to do work on me. Please do not think I am saying the BS is at fault for an affair, I’m not, but they weren’t perfect either.
> 
> My line of thinking was that if I became a better person, the why would explain itself to me. To a certain extent it has, albeit it is a very small explanation. Some may say because waywards are selfish, it’s their true self, because they could, because they wanted to, because they are capable, and the list goes on. But does that really explain why? No. There has to be much more to infidelity and why some are willing to bomb their marriage over something I find so minimal. Truth is I have my opinions, but nothing that you could say is evidence. Even though it appears there is a script WS follow, each WS is their own person, own feelings, own emotions. Why do they all appear to follow the same script? I have come to the conclusion that they follow a script or don’t for one reason, salvation.
> 
> When reality begins to hit a wayward spouse it shakes them up, disturbs them, and self preservation mode kicks in. When they see how the betrayed is hurt they protect the betrayed. Trickle truth, deception is all used to spare the betrayed, but I also think it is to protect themselves also. The horrible reality is setting in, and they can’t see themselves as capable, that they actually did this. Now add in that the betrayed views them as damaged, dirty, cruel, weak, selfish, its more then they can bear. Truly remorseful WS will tell all and be as transparent as possible, but it won’t get you the why.
> 
> Another conclusion I have come to is that some don’t really know why. I think waywards want to keep the why to themselves, that is the part of the affair that no BS has a right to know. I would wager that a high number of WS have kept some of the affair private from the BS. In my case, how does my wife explain to me that she found an OM twenty five years her senior attractive? Now I’m pretty down to earth, joke around a lot, sarcastic and considered to be quite funny by friends and family. In therapy I joked that her affair had me thinking of the movie big daddy, even though there was no six year plan. So imagine having to explain that in a way that doesn’t just scream stupid, you can’t. Therefore, that gets filed in the private file of the affair. They already have shame and stupidity feelings, they aren’t going to keep adding to that pile.
> 
> So you have a WS who has just nuked everything in their life, they have no idea what is going to be at the end of the day. It reminds me of excuses I get from criminals, and I get some pretty good responses. Yet they aren’t thought out, they don’t see the stupidity of the excuse, but once told they have to keep going with it. When you press them enough, then they may change their story altogether and admit they lied. However, that story is no better then the first. My buddy got married and the ex-husband of his new wife was harassing them. They lived in a small town about two miles from the main road in town, totally desolate around them. The ex came down and broke into his ex-wife’s car. Had almost cleaned the entire car out when he gets caught half way from his car to my buddy’s house walking and carrying her belongings. The cop stops him and he tells the cop he heard a funny noise coming from his car and pulled over to rearrange the items in the trunk. Unbelievably he told the judge the same story, the judge replied, you drive off a main road, with multiple gas stations, to a dark desolate area, to rearrange the times in your trunk, which were not your items but your wife’s, and expect me to believe you? The next word the judge spoke was “guilty”.
> 
> People make bad choices, then tell bad lies, and from there it spirals out of their control. They are desperate to keep any resemblance to what their life was before, just as some BS can be just as desperate to keep their life. I find the situation to be both complex and simple, if that makes any sense at all. We are all human, we all have flaws, we all make bad choices, we try to be a good person. Sadly not all humans are good, some are bad, and I’m sure some feel my wife is one of the worst with what she did. I can’t argue that, I can only look at what she did, look at her actions to change, and then look at her now to what she has become.
> 
> @sokillme, @Truthseeker, I know what you both have told me on how you feel about my wife. I know how @ConanHub, feels about my situation after our talks, but you can only go by my posts. I have offered this website to my wife, to post if she would like, it’s my transparency to her. She has declined my invitation, she has declined to read any of my posts, but she has read posts I’ve given to her from here. My wife has said that I should have this, this is my safe area so to speak, and what she knows of here is what I have told her. She knows who I am friends with on Facebook, who I have communicated with in private messages here, that I have had private messages with a WS. She knows I will help anyone I can here, just as she helps people through her employment. This is all communicated with each other, and mutually agreed upon before we interact or respond.
> 
> The truth to me is that scuba, myself, and most other betrayeds, will never ever get the full truth on why. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt, but the why will be forever elusive.
> 
> On a side note, my wife was just recognized for saving another’s life. This was how she was pre-affair, and as her husband I couldn’t be more proud of her. People can change, people can make bad decisions and then become good again. My wife’s actions made me weak, destroyed, devastated and damn near killed me. Four years out from d-day and I couldn’t be more proud of her both towards infidelity and as a human being. I’m happy again, maybe a tad more sarcastic, but I’m happy, as is my wife who has done so much hard work.


I will answer more in depth. I just want to stay one thing. I feel sorry for your wife and think what she did was really horrible, that's it. She has ask for forgiveness and has done her best to earn it from your point of view. It's not my place to say if she should have it or not, that's on you. So that is where I will leave it. My feelings about the situation do not necessarily have to translate to my feelings about the WS. Remember my Dad was a total jerk to most of the women in his life but to me he was a very good Dad, so I don't think people should only be judged by their worst actions. 

What I said is what she did to you was horrible, because it was. I also said there was no way I could do what you are doing. You and I have had this discussion. I think we came to some sort of understanding. I see what you are doing as a very real example of Christian love, but it troubles me that I upsets me to see it. I think that may even be my failing as a christian. Anyway please don't say that I feel like your wife is unworthy of forgiveness because I don't. Forgiveness isn't R though. I don't think most WS are monsters (there are some) but just very broken people who do very hurtful thinks. Not a good choice to be married to doesn't mean they should be thrown away as human beings. 

More later.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> As a WW...I am going to tell you something. The only reason I can give as to why...is because i wanted to. That's the plain and simple truth. Why did I want to? Now that gets complicated...I had the opportunity, I was unhappy, I was feeling insecure, I convinced myself my husband no longer cared, I became selfish. I could break all those things down into more "reasons" why. But then it begins to sound like excuses and validations...and I don't want to do that.
> 
> So is it possible for a betrayed to accept the answer...simple as it is...because i wanted to? Probably not...because you still want to get inside your Waywards head and try to pick apart the why...and I understand that. The more information you have the better you think you will understand it and "be prepared" for the signs of it happening again.
> 
> Unfortunately...until you have seen remorse....I am not sure you can ever "trust with reservation". Yes....John trusts me with reservation....and what i mean by that is this....he trusts me...but I don't believe it is possible to trust 100% with the same kind of blind trust you have before infidelity. You already know that ANYTHING is possible...so you cannot possibly have innocent trust again.
> 
> Anyway....I think WHY is such a difficult question....and I think we have to change the question from WHY to WHAT....what can we do now to repair the damage that the infidelity has done? What can we do to help each other rebuild trust? What can we do to make each other feel safe? What can we do to make sure neither of us has to go through this again?
> 
> I hope this gives you something to think about...and mostly I hope it gives you some peace.


Until we have devices that can read our mind (They're coming by the way) my feeling is 100% trust is unwise. I also think the only way to truly be safe is to know that even if you are cheated on you will be alright, lots of pain but life will go on and you can be just as happy again. In my mind the best way to do that is being a well rounded person. Your entire safety should not be built around one person, even if they don't cheat they could die. 

I think it's better for the BS if they do accept your answer of why. The cognizant dissonance about why seems to be a way of not dealing with the truth, but that also seems to me to stop healing, because if you have to tie yourself in knots to get to acceptance are you really coming to acceptance. Any other reason leaves your logical mind questioning. When you just accept that the truth is people do horrible things, they make a series of choices to do them. Their priorities change, they chose themselves at the expense of you and even their honor. Then at least logically it makes sense. I think the problem with that is believing that is very very painful. It's easier to believe that some dark thing that happened when they were 6 is the reason because truthfully it's not such a direct rejection. It's a question of accepting with your heart or your brain. If you choose to go with one that makes it easier for your heart your brain suffers. If you choose what the brain thinks your heart suffers. But the brain one is the truth that is the one that stops the questions. When the questions stop you have acceptance. The next question is now that your heart knows the awful truth do you want to start over. (We have discussed that enough on this thread 0) I also think there are things in people's history that make them more susceptible to be in situations where it is easier to choose themselves but it's still a choice. 

It's really a question of character, It has to be you don't cheat just because it's was wrong. Everything else "I had the opportunity, I was unhappy, I was feeling insecure, I convinced myself my husband no longer cared, I became selfish." can happen in most marriages. Therefore fidelity can't be contingent on those things. The marriage can be, but not fidelity. At least if you do the moral thing. Cheating is always a question of character. Also it think if you understanding that love is something that is given, not something that you get. Meaning I choose to love you as a gift, so I won't take it away if I feel the things you listed. I don't think that means staying though. You are allowed to have requirements in marriage. You can still love someone and leave a marriage if you feel it is unhealthy for you to remain for instance. 

---- 

Can I ask you did you at one point romanticize your relationship. Like did you believe that God brought you together? If so how do you now deal with your timeline where there is 10 years with your husband, then your boyfriend, then your husband again. That would be something that would be very hard for me. Like the primary love in your life was interrupted where you went off and had another love affair, then came back to it. Also the same is true with you, though I don't know the length of your husbands affair. Who was this man to you by the way? Now maybe you didn't romanticize it and you don't even think that way. I suspect lots of WS don't. It just seems like a large intimacy in your in your life that you had with someone else that happened while you were married. I don't see how that goes away. That would be a constant source of pain for me. Like a festering wound.


----------



## ConanHub

Nice post @drifting on

While I have meant each and every word I have said to you, I have stated many times that people can, and should, choose to be better people.

Your wife didn't start out vile or evil or she wouldn't have attracted you.

At some point she started choosing to be an evil person, no not totally evil in every way, but supremely selfish at the cost of you and others.

She has since reformed and is choosing good again which is making her a good and attractive wife as well. She better be buddy!!! You might not have been perfect but you deserve an honest, loving mate and you sure as hell didn't deserve her betrayal!

I'm perfectly fine with reformed people.

Your wife owed you and God. If your satisfied with her then I am as well unless I think you are being a doormat for abuse and I haven't gotten that vibe from you.

Her business with God is definitely above my pay grade but I sincerely hope she has repented to His satisfaction first and foremost.

My feelings are that I was really pissed that you were hurt my friend. I always will be but forgiveness is healing and I hope you don't believe I have anything other than cautious optimism about your wife.

Gotta go watch my little cousins play their first T-ball game! Take care brother!


----------



## BluesPower

drifting on said:


> @sokillme, I said I would post here if I could find the right words. I hope my message is not as murky as my words may seem to be.
> 
> When my wife cheated I was thrown into infidelity, I am the type that needs to know why, but I believe you will never truly know why. I don’t think that waywards are too weak to say why, some can and will tell you why, but I think that for most betrayeds you will never get that answer. In this case it was asked of @scuba Steve why his wife had an affair, with that of a much older OM than the typical affair. Please, if you are older I’m not trying to insult anyone, just stating opinion and facts. Regrettably, my wife’s affair was with that of a much older OM, that stung, as if her affair were with someone her age I could attribute to she was no longer loving me. Simple, right? Not so.
> 
> I had to sort through daddy issues, her infidelity, and everything else that came with this. My wife could not have loved me when in an affair, let’s rephrase that, my wife could not have been in love with me during the affair. It is possible to love many people, parents, family, kids come to mind, but if you are in love that’s different. Separation of the many different loves was difficult, I came to the realization that my wife wasn’t in love with me, yet we slept together each night. Many more realizations began to come to me, that I wasn’t as good a husband or person that I thought I was. I had flaws too, I wasn’t perfect, and that I needed to do work on me. Please do not think I am saying the BS is at fault for an affair, I’m not, but they weren’t perfect either.
> 
> My line of thinking was that if I became a better person, the why would explain itself to me. To a certain extent it has, albeit it is a very small explanation. Some may say because waywards are selfish, it’s their true self, because they could, because they wanted to, because they are capable, and the list goes on. But does that really explain why? No. There has to be much more to infidelity and why some are willing to bomb their marriage over something I find so minimal. Truth is I have my opinions, but nothing that you could say is evidence. Even though it appears there is a script WS follow, each WS is their own person, own feelings, own emotions. Why do they all appear to follow the same script? I have come to the conclusion that they follow a script or don’t for one reason, salvation.
> 
> When reality begins to hit a wayward spouse it shakes them up, disturbs them, and self preservation mode kicks in. When they see how the betrayed is hurt they protect the betrayed. Trickle truth, deception is all used to spare the betrayed, but I also think it is to protect themselves also. The horrible reality is setting in, and they can’t see themselves as capable, that they actually did this. Now add in that the betrayed views them as damaged, dirty, cruel, weak, selfish, its more then they can bear. Truly remorseful WS will tell all and be as transparent as possible, but it won’t get you the why.
> 
> Another conclusion I have come to is that some don’t really know why. I think waywards want to keep the why to themselves, that is the part of the affair that no BS has a right to know. I would wager that a high number of WS have kept some of the affair private from the BS. In my case, how does my wife explain to me that she found an OM twenty five years her senior attractive? Now I’m pretty down to earth, joke around a lot, sarcastic and considered to be quite funny by friends and family. In therapy I joked that her affair had me thinking of the movie big daddy, even though there was no six year plan. So imagine having to explain that in a way that doesn’t just scream stupid, you can’t. Therefore, that gets filed in the private file of the affair. They already have shame and stupidity feelings, they aren’t going to keep adding to that pile.
> 
> So you have a WS who has just nuked everything in their life, they have no idea what is going to be at the end of the day. It reminds me of excuses I get from criminals, and I get some pretty good responses. Yet they aren’t thought out, they don’t see the stupidity of the excuse, but once told they have to keep going with it. When you press them enough, then they may change their story altogether and admit they lied. However, that story is no better then the first. My buddy got married and the ex-husband of his new wife was harassing them. They lived in a small town about two miles from the main road in town, totally desolate around them. The ex came down and broke into his ex-wife’s car. Had almost cleaned the entire car out when he gets caught half way from his car to my buddy’s house walking and carrying her belongings. The cop stops him and he tells the cop he heard a funny noise coming from his car and pulled over to rearrange the items in the trunk. Unbelievably he told the judge the same story, the judge replied, you drive off a main road, with multiple gas stations, to a dark desolate area, to rearrange the times in your trunk, which were not your items but your wife’s, and expect me to believe you? The next word the judge spoke was “guilty”.
> 
> People make bad choices, then tell bad lies, and from there it spirals out of their control. They are desperate to keep any resemblance to what their life was before, just as some BS can be just as desperate to keep their life. I find the situation to be both complex and simple, if that makes any sense at all. We are all human, we all have flaws, we all make bad choices, we try to be a good person. Sadly not all humans are good, some are bad, and I’m sure some feel my wife is one of the worst with what she did. I can’t argue that, I can only look at what she did, look at her actions to change, and then look at her now to what she has become.
> 
> @sokillme, @Truthseeker, I know what you both have told me on how you feel about my wife. I know how @ConanHub, feels about my situation after our talks, but you can only go by my posts. I have offered this website to my wife, to post if she would like, it’s my transparency to her. She has declined my invitation, she has declined to read any of my posts, but she has read posts I’ve given to her from here. My wife has said that I should have this, this is my safe area so to speak, and what she knows of here is what I have told her. She knows who I am friends with on Facebook, who I have communicated with in private messages here, that I have had private messages with a WS. She knows I will help anyone I can here, just as she helps people through her employment. This is all communicated with each other, and mutually agreed upon before we interact or respond.
> 
> The truth to me is that scuba, myself, and most other betrayeds, will never ever get the full truth on why. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt, but the why will be forever elusive.
> 
> On a side note, my wife was just recognized for saving another’s life. This was how she was pre-affair, and as her husband I couldn’t be more proud of her. People can change, people can make bad decisions and then become good again. My wife’s actions made me weak, destroyed, devastated and damn near killed me. Four years out from d-day and I couldn’t be more proud of her both towards infidelity and as a human being. I’m happy again, maybe a tad more sarcastic, but I’m happy, as is my wife who has done so much hard work.


You know, you may end up as one of the great reconciliation stories of all of the infidelity/marriage sites. 

And, this is really a great post, I know that you are sincere when you write it. 

I could never, ever, in a million years had done what you have done. 

If it works for you, I salute you, I pray for you, and I am happy for you. 

I am not sure that I could ever be man or un-man enough to do what you did. I just do not have it in me. 

But for sure, I am happy for you...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> Until we have devices that can read our mind (They're coming by the way) my feeling is 100% trust is unwise. I also think the only way to truly be safe is to know that even if you are cheated on you will be alright, lots of pain but life will go on and you can be just as happy again. In my mind the best way to do that is being a well rounded person. Your entire safety should not be built around one person, even if they don't cheat they could die.
> *I agree with you that trusting anyone 100% is never wise....but most 17 and 19 year old kids trust each other. There was never any question in Johns mind that I would cheat on him...if there had been...he woud not have married me....and john married me FOREVER.*
> 
> I think it's better for the BS if they do accept your answer of why. The cognizant dissonance about why seems to be a way of not dealing with the truth, but that also seems to me to stop healing, because if you have to tie yourself in knots to get to acceptance are you really coming to acceptance. Any other reason leaves your logical mind questioning. When you just accept that the truth is people do horrible things, they make a series of choices to do them. Their priorities change, they chose themselves at the expense of you and even their honor. Then at least logically it makes sense. I think the problem with that is believing that is very very painful. It's easier to believe that some dark thing that happened when they were 6 is the reason because truthfully it's not such a direct rejection. It's a question of accepting with your heart or your brain. If you choose to go with one that makes it easier for your heart your brain suffers. If you choose what the brain thinks your heart suffers. But the brain one is the truth that is the one that stops the questions. When the questions stop you have acceptance. The next question is now that your heart knows the awful truth do you want to start over. (We have discussed that enough on this thread 0) I also think there are things in people's history that make them more susceptible to be in situations where it is easier to choose themselves but it's still a choice.
> 
> It's really a question of character, It has to be you don't cheat just because it's was wrong. Everything else "I had the opportunity, I was unhappy, I was feeling insecure, I convinced myself my husband no longer cared, I became selfish." can happen in most marriages. Therefore fidelity can't be contingent on those things. The marriage can be, but not fidelity. At least if you do the moral thing. Cheating is always a question of character. Also it think if you understanding that love is something that is given, not something that you get. Meaning I choose to love you as a gift, so I won't take it away if I feel the things you listed. I don't think that means staying though. You are allowed to have requirements in marriage. You can still love someone and leave a marriage if you feel it is unhealthy for you to remain for instance.
> *and you are correct...you simply don't cheat... because it is wrong....and I believed that with all my heart...until i did and you see just like we are can lie or steal, or cheat....we validate the action BEFORE we do it. We give ourselves reasons and excuses to make the choice we absolutely know is WRONG... and then we lie some more to cover it up and diminish what we did*
> 
> ----
> 
> Can I ask you did you at one point romanticize your relationship. Like did you believe that God brought you together? If so how do you now deal with your timeline where there is 10 years with your husband, then your boyfriend, then your husband again. That would be something that would be very hard for me. Like the primary love in your life was interrupted where you went off and had another love affair, then came back to it. Also the same is true with you, though I don't know the length of your husbands affair. Who was this man to you by the way? Now maybe you didn't romanticize it and you don't even think that way. I suspect lots of WS don't. It just seems like a large intimacy in your in your life that you had with someone else that happened while you were married. I don't see how that goes away. That would be a constant source of pain for me. Like a festering wound.


*We both believed God brought us together...and we still believe it. We were married 11 years years I had my affair....and i will correct you about something...i did not have a boyfriend...I was infatuated...he was a player....so there was no romance...no relationship...no love...no promises...no future...no plans shared and one date...so the scenario is not quite like you have imagined it to be. I always wanted my husband...and until this happened there was never any doubt in my mind i wanted my husband...so i knew when i confessed to my husband that i did not want to lose him..however i certainly knew that was a probability.Like you...it was a constant source of pain for him...one that has never gone away I am sure.*

I was read something that has stuck in mind....My betrayed husband loves me more than he hates what i did. If you really think about that...you will understand the mindset of those who are able to attempt to reconcile. It is sobering to me...to think about how much he loves me...because i know how much he hates what i did.


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I agree with you that trusting anyone 100% is never wise....but most 17 and 19 year old kids trust each other. There was never any question in Johns mind that I would cheat on him...if there had been...he woud not have married me....and john married me FOREVER.


This is kind of how everyone thinks before they get cheated on, I know it's how I thought. It's probably a reason why it's a good idea not to marry too young. Gives you a better chance to experience it before you are so invested. I don't think many people avoid it. 



> *We both believed God brought us together...and we still believe it. We were married 11 years years I had my affair....and i will correct you about something...i did not have a boyfriend...I was infatuated...he was a player....so there was no romance...no relationship...no love...no promises...no future...no plans shared and one date...so the scenario is not quite like you have imagined it to be. I always wanted my husband...and until this happened there was never any doubt in my mind i wanted my husband...so i knew when i confessed to my husband that i did not want to lose him..however i certainly knew that was a probability.Like you...it was a constant source of pain for him...one that has never gone away I am sure.*
> 
> I was read something that has stuck in mind....My betrayed husband loves me more than he hates what i did. If you really think about that...you will understand the mindset of those who are able to attempt to reconcile. It is sobering to me...to think about how much he loves me...because i know how much he hates what i did.


Lover? What should I call him? What do you call him? 

How about your husbands Emotional Lover? Not sure what you want call her. Is she a constant source of pain for you?



> My betrayed husband loves me more than he hates what i did.


 I understand the mindset but a lot of times that mindset leads to really badly codependent relationships. Not saying you are doing that that, but it can be a very unhealthy mindset. I honestly wish the west felt a little bit more like the east when it comes to romantic love. Romantic live though fun is not really healthy a lot of times, not if that is the only thing you gauge your relationship by. Love can't be your only reason for a relationship. Love is not always the most important thing when deciding on the course of your life. 

Was there ever a time when either one of you was seriously considering divorce?


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## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> This is kind of how everyone thinks before they get cheated on, I know it's how I thought. It's probably a reason why it's a good idea not to marry too young. Gives you a better chance to experience it before you are so invested. I don't think many people avoid it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lover? What should I call him? What do you call him?
> *I call him nothing...when writing about things i refer to him as OM*
> 
> How about your husbands Emotional Lover? Not sure what you want call her. Is she a constant source of pain for you?
> I don't call her anything..no she is not a constant source of pain for me. I trigger once in a while...but rarely. You see...I have the ability to block out things i don't want to think about...I believe this is a coping mechanism i developed as a child.
> 
> I understand the mindset but a lot of times that mindset leads to really badly codependent relationships. Not saying you are doing that that, but it can be a very unhealthy mindset. I honestly wish the west felt a little bit more like the east when it comes to romantic love. Romantic live though fun is not really healthy a lot of times, not if that is the only thing you gauge your relationship by. Love can't be your only reason for a relationship. Love is not always the most important thing when deciding on the course of your life.
> 
> *We love each other, we like each other, we need each other, we like being together, we are best friends
> You don't need to analyze our relationship....we are good. I am not asking for help.*
> 
> Was there ever a time when either one of you was seriously considering divorce?


*Of course....*


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## 269370

The 'why' is elusive. It's entirely possible they don't know themselves why they did it. They just did it. Without thinking or even with thinking: it could just be an impulse decision. The 'why' is the rationalisation created by the mind but if mind was not involved in the first place, just the instinct, then it's pointless to look for 'why'. You may never find it.




drifting on said:


> @sokillme, I said I would post here if I could find the right words. I hope my message is not as murky as my words may seem to be.
> 
> When my wife cheated I was thrown into infidelity, I am the type that needs to know why, but I believe you will never truly know why. I don’t think that waywards are too weak to say why, some can and will tell you why, but I think that for most betrayeds you will never get that answer. In this case it was asked of @scuba Steve why his wife had an affair, with that of a much older OM than the typical affair. Please, if you are older I’m not trying to insult anyone, just stating opinion and facts. Regrettably, my wife’s affair was with that of a much older OM, that stung, as if her affair were with someone her age I could attribute to she was no longer loving me. Simple, right? Not so.
> 
> I had to sort through daddy issues, her infidelity, and everything else that came with this. My wife could not have loved me when in an affair, let’s rephrase that, my wife could not have been in love with me during the affair. It is possible to love many people, parents, family, kids come to mind, but if you are in love that’s different. Separation of the many different loves was difficult, I came to the realization that my wife wasn’t in love with me, yet we slept together each night. Many more realizations began to come to me, that I wasn’t as good a husband or person that I thought I was. I had flaws too, I wasn’t perfect, and that I needed to do work on me. Please do not think I am saying the BS is at fault for an affair, I’m not, but they weren’t perfect either.
> 
> My line of thinking was that if I became a better person, the why would explain itself to me. To a certain extent it has, albeit it is a very small explanation. Some may say because waywards are selfish, it’s their true self, because they could, because they wanted to, because they are capable, and the list goes on. But does that really explain why? No. There has to be much more to infidelity and why some are willing to bomb their marriage over something I find so minimal. Truth is I have my opinions, but nothing that you could say is evidence. Even though it appears there is a script WS follow, each WS is their own person, own feelings, own emotions. Why do they all appear to follow the same script? I have come to the conclusion that they follow a script or don’t for one reason, salvation.
> 
> When reality begins to hit a wayward spouse it shakes them up, disturbs them, and self preservation mode kicks in. When they see how the betrayed is hurt they protect the betrayed. Trickle truth, deception is all used to spare the betrayed, but I also think it is to protect themselves also. The horrible reality is setting in, and they can’t see themselves as capable, that they actually did this. Now add in that the betrayed views them as damaged, dirty, cruel, weak, selfish, its more then they can bear. Truly remorseful WS will tell all and be as transparent as possible, but it won’t get you the why.
> 
> Another conclusion I have come to is that some don’t really know why. I think waywards want to keep the why to themselves, that is the part of the affair that no BS has a right to know. I would wager that a high number of WS have kept some of the affair private from the BS. In my case, how does my wife explain to me that she found an OM twenty five years her senior attractive? Now I’m pretty down to earth, joke around a lot, sarcastic and considered to be quite funny by friends and family. In therapy I joked that her affair had me thinking of the movie big daddy, even though there was no six year plan. So imagine having to explain that in a way that doesn’t just scream stupid, you can’t. Therefore, that gets filed in the private file of the affair. They already have shame and stupidity feelings, they aren’t going to keep adding to that pile.
> 
> So you have a WS who has just nuked everything in their life, they have no idea what is going to be at the end of the day. It reminds me of excuses I get from criminals, and I get some pretty good responses. Yet they aren’t thought out, they don’t see the stupidity of the excuse, but once told they have to keep going with it. When you press them enough, then they may change their story altogether and admit they lied. However, that story is no better then the first. My buddy got married and the ex-husband of his new wife was harassing them. They lived in a small town about two miles from the main road in town, totally desolate around them. The ex came down and broke into his ex-wife’s car. Had almost cleaned the entire car out when he gets caught half way from his car to my buddy’s house walking and carrying her belongings. The cop stops him and he tells the cop he heard a funny noise coming from his car and pulled over to rearrange the items in the trunk. Unbelievably he told the judge the same story, the judge replied, you drive off a main road, with multiple gas stations, to a dark desolate area, to rearrange the times in your trunk, which were not your items but your wife’s, and expect me to believe you? The next word the judge spoke was “guilty”.
> 
> People make bad choices, then tell bad lies, and from there it spirals out of their control. They are desperate to keep any resemblance to what their life was before, just as some BS can be just as desperate to keep their life. I find the situation to be both complex and simple, if that makes any sense at all. We are all human, we all have flaws, we all make bad choices, we try to be a good person. Sadly not all humans are good, some are bad, and I’m sure some feel my wife is one of the worst with what she did. I can’t argue that, I can only look at what she did, look at her actions to change, and then look at her now to what she has become.
> 
> @sokillme, @Truthseeker, I know what you both have told me on how you feel about my wife. I know how @ConanHub, feels about my situation after our talks, but you can only go by my posts. I have offered this website to my wife, to post if she would like, it’s my transparency to her. She has declined my invitation, she has declined to read any of my posts, but she has read posts I’ve given to her from here. My wife has said that I should have this, this is my safe area so to speak, and what she knows of here is what I have told her. She knows who I am friends with on Facebook, who I have communicated with in private messages here, that I have had private messages with a WS. She knows I will help anyone I can here, just as she helps people through her employment. This is all communicated with each other, and mutually agreed upon before we interact or respond.
> 
> The truth to me is that scuba, myself, and most other betrayeds, will never ever get the full truth on why. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt, but the why will be forever elusive.
> 
> On a side note, my wife was just recognized for saving another’s life. This was how she was pre-affair, and as her husband I couldn’t be more proud of her. People can change, people can make bad decisions and then become good again. My wife’s actions made me weak, destroyed, devastated and damn near killed me. Four years out from d-day and I couldn’t be more proud of her both towards infidelity and as a human being. I’m happy again, maybe a tad more sarcastic, but I’m happy, as is my wife who has done so much hard work.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i confessed to my husband


You confessed? Why? Sorry I haven't read your story. 
If my wife cheated, I wouldn't want to know. She can deal with the whole remorse thing herself, I wouldn't want to be part of it.

She said to me the same thing once. (If you cheat, don't tell me).


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## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> You confessed? Why? Sorry I haven't read your story.
> If my wife cheated, I wouldn't want to know. She can deal with the whole remorse thing herself, I wouldn't want to be part of it.
> 
> She said to me the same thing once. (If you cheat, don't tell me).


yes i confessed


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> yes i confessed


And he didn't know before? Oh dear. That, I find more difficult to understand than infidelity itself. I can understand people making a mistake or doing something stupid, I don't really understand why one must ruin the other person's life by telling them about it. 

Sorry, I don't mean to appear judgemental. You obviously have to do what you feel is best. But to me, that's difficult to comprehend. Why not confess to a priest instead or something. People always say the cheater has to forgive thyself first and foremost (I think that's what they say?) so it would seem logical to also keep it to themselves and sort it out. We are all obviously different people but if my wife confessed to me, I would be pissed at her for being self indulgent (not as much because of the affair but because of the confession).


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## Personal

inmyprime said:


> And he didn't know before? Oh dear. That, I find more difficult to understand than infidelity itself. I can understand people making a mistake or doing something stupid, I don't really understand why one must ruin the other person's life by telling them about it.


My ex-wife confessed shortly afterwards with a great deal of contrition and supplication. In that instance absent her confession, I would probably have never known about her sexual infidelity.

That said I am glad she told me and as a consequence of her egregious betrayal, I am glad I chose to quickly and decisively end our marital relationship and then got on with the rest of my life enjoying other women.


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## 269370

Personal said:


> My ex-wife confessed shortly afterwards with a great deal of contrition and supplication. In that instance absent her confession, I would probably have never known about her sexual infidelity.
> 
> That said I am glad she told me and as a consequence of her egregious betrayal, I am glad I chose to quickly and decisively end our marital relationship and then got on with the rest of my life enjoying other women.


But if you had never known, you wouldn't have been 'glad' that she told you. Unless you were looking forward enjoying other women anyway? :scratchhead:


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## Quality

inmyprime said:


> But if you had never known, you wouldn't have been 'glad' that she told you. Unless you were looking forward enjoying other women anyway? :scratchhead:


IMO, secrets destroy marriages in more insidious ways.

It's the affair that harms the relationship, not both parties knowing the truth about it.

A house with a cracked foundation is unstable - regardless if the homeowner knows it or not.

YMMV


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## 269370

Quality said:


> IMO, secrets destroy marriages in more insidious ways.
> 
> It's the affair that harms the relationship, not both parties knowing the truth about it.
> 
> A house with a cracked foundation is unstable - regardless if the homeowner knows it or not.
> 
> YMMV


It's more like: there's a whole in the wall behind a painting. Unless you move it aside, you will never know. 
Of course if the foundations are cracked, then it will show in many ways, not just through cheating. Eventually the whole thing will collapse. Confession or no confession.

Btw, I am talking about a specific scenario where the WS is determined to fully remorse/reconcile and continue with the marriage. 
I know this viewpoint is not going to go down well here but it's just my view.
It's the Schroedinger's Cat principle from the husband's point of view.

If the goal is to do the whole remorse/reconcile dance, what's the use of getting the BS involved, aside from relieving yourself from guilt? 

For example take a specific scenario such as MJA's case: they reconciled and seem happy from what I gather but must have gone through a lot to get there. However purely from the husband's point of view: is the glad that he knows? Has he been asked this question? Would he not wish his wife hadn't told him and came to all these realisations by herself/on her own? The end result would have been the same (they would still be together) except that the husband wouldn't have been through hell and back. I don't see the purpose for the telling except it being for the benefit of the WS only.

Not getting the BS involved is a bit like doing successful surgery under general anaesthetic: as a patient, you don't know what happened but you are healed at the end when you wake up. Confessing is like going through the same surgery without any anaesthetic...


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## Personal

inmyprime said:


> But if you had never known, you wouldn't have been 'glad' that she told you. Unless you were looking forward enjoying other women anyway? :scratchhead:


You may prefer to maintain sexual relationships, where behaving with integrity, plus affording ones sexual partner/s informed consent and agreement isn't an expectation. Yet I do have those expectations and have always afforded those things, to all of my sexual partners as well.

To unilaterally decide to have sex with another or others outside of an agreed sexually exclusive relationship, is to take away the other partners ability to informed self determination.

My ex-wife unilaterally chose to potentially expose me to sexually transmitted diseases without seeking my informed consent and against my will. Such behaviour is extraordinarily unconscionable, and would be more egregious if not for the telling.

As to other women, I wasn't looking forward to them, if my ex-wife were loyal I wouldn't have ended our relationship. It was simply a natural consequence of my becoming available to others through the cessation of our relationship.

Throughout my life in all of my sexual relationships I have never cheated on any of my sexual partners, even with lots of very direct and explicit offers (all turned down) and opportunities with plenty of attractive women.

Although I have never lacked for plentiful female suitors and have been with plenty of women. I have always been a loyal sexual partner and quite reasonably expect the same of others, if they want to be afforded the opportunity to be with me.


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## 269370

Quality said:


> IMO, secrets destroy marriages in more insidious ways.


Yes they sometimes do. But desperate times sometimes require extraordinary measures. If secrets damage/destroy a marriage, the truth may not only destroy the marriage but also wreck the other person beyond repair. That's more inconsiderate in my view than infidelity itself. It's doubling down.


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## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Yes they sometimes do. But desperate times sometimes require extraordinary measures. If secrets damage/destroy a marriage, the truth may not only destroy the marriage but also wreck the other person beyond repair. That's more inconsiderate in my view than infidelity itself. It's doubling down.


Oh please, with all this sensitive petal nonsense of protecting people from the truth. If someone ****s you over it's good to **** them off end of story.

My ex-wife betrayed me and I told her to **** off and got on with my life without breaking down or crying in my cornflakes.


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## 269370

Personal said:


> You may prefer to maintain sexual relationships, where behaving with integrity, plus affording ones sexual partner/s informed consent and agreement isn't an expectation. Yet I do have those expectations and have always afforded those things, to all of my sexual partners as well.
> 
> To unilaterally decide to have sex with another or others outside of an agreed sexually exclusive relationship, is to take away the other partners ability to informed self determination.
> 
> My ex-wife unilaterally chose to potentially expose me to sexually transmitted diseases without seeking my informed consent and against my will. Such behaviour is extraordinarily unconscionable, and would be more egregious if not for the telling.
> 
> As to other women, I wasn't looking forward to them, if my ex-wife were loyal I wouldn't have ended our relationship. It was simply a natural consequence of my becoming available to others through the cessation of our relationship.
> 
> Throughout my life in all of my sexual relationships I have never cheated on any of my sexual partners, even with lots of very direct and explicit offers (all turned down) and opportunities with plenty of attractive women.
> 
> Although I have never lacked for plentiful female suitors and have been with plenty of women. I have always been a loyal sexual partner and quite reasonably expect the same of others, if they want to be afforded the opportunity to be with me.


Yes, I agree with all that. And that's the ideal. 

However, you chose to end the marriage, others choose to reconcile. I am talking about cases where people choose to reconcile. In those cases, I don't see the point of confessing. People will point out that one shouldn't take away the choice of the BS to leave. And I am saying it's too high a price to pay (for the BS) *if the end result is to reconcile/stay together.*
If it's a one-off 'diversion', a stupid mistake and the WS fully realises it, has remorse etc etc; that's the situation I am talking about.
Not a situation where it keeps happening (cake-eating). In the latter situation no amount of R or confessing is going to help so the marriage will disintegrate anyway.


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## 269370

Personal said:


> Oh please, with all this sensitive petal nonsense of protecting people from the truth. If someone ****s you over it's good to **** them off end of story.
> 
> My ex-wife betrayed me and I told her to **** off and got on with my life without breaking down or crying in my cornflakes.


Again....I am not talking about *your* situation with *your* cornflakes. Not everybody wants their WS to '**** off' as clearly is the case on this thread.
You are arguing against a scenario I am not defending.

BSs who go through R go through a lot of unnecessary pain by knowing.


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## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Yes, I agree with all that. And that's the ideal.
> 
> However, you chose to end the marriage, others choose to reconcile. I am talking about cases where people choose to reconcile. In those cases, I don't see the point of confessing. People will point out that one shouldn't take away the choice of the BS to leave. And I am saying it's too high a price to pay (for the BS).
> If it's a one-off 'diversion', a stupid mistake and the WS fully realises it, has remorse etc etc; that's the situation I am talking about.
> Not a situation where it keeps happening (cake-eating).


So you are talking about what I experienced. Since as far as I am aware my ex-wife cheated on me in one single instance at a party while I was away on a course for work. Then following my coming home, she guiltily confesses her indiscretion in short order afterwards.

Her behaviour was no accident or a mistake, women simply don't actually trip over and have their vaginas fall onto random penises at parties. So as a consequence of what was a choice, she lost her opportunity to be with me.

Now she offered all kinds of contrition, supplication and humiliation, in an attempt to satiate my disgust at her conduct yet I wouldn't have any of it. if a woman ****s me over in a sexual relationship, that's it they have reached the end. So there's no go around for them, they will be replaced.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> And he didn't know before? Oh dear. That, I find more difficult to understand than infidelity itself. I can understand people making a mistake or doing something stupid, I don't really understand why one must ruin the other person's life by telling them about it.
> 
> Sorry, I don't mean to appear judgemental. You obviously have to do what you feel is best. But to me, that's difficult to comprehend. Why not confess to a priest instead or something. People always say the cheater has to forgive thyself first and foremost (I think that's what they say?) so it would seem logical to also keep it to themselves and sort it out. We are all obviously different people but if my wife confessed to me, I would be pissed at her for being self indulgent (not as much because of the affair but because of the confession).


i had a one time encounter...i confessed
and i believe i did the right thing by confessing. He had the right to choose to divorce me or stay with me.


----------



## drifting on

sokillme said:


> I will answer more in depth. I just want to stay one thing. I feel sorry for your wife and think what she did was really horrible, that's it. She has ask for forgiveness and has done her best to earn it from your point of view. It's not my place to say if she should have it or not, that's on you. So that is where I will leave it. My feelings about the situation do not necessarily have to translate to my feelings about the WS. Remember my Dad was a total jerk to most of the women in his life but to me he was a very good Dad, so I don't think people should only be judged by their worst actions.
> 
> What I said is what she did to you was horrible, because it was. I also said there was no way I could do what you are doing. You and I have had this discussion. I think we came to some sort of understanding. I see what you are doing as a very real example of Christian love, but it troubles me that I upsets me to see it. I think that may even be my failing as a christian. Anyway please don't say that I feel like your wife is unworthy of forgiveness because I don't. Forgiveness isn't R though. I don't think most WS are monsters (there are some) but just very broken people who do very hurtful thinks. Not a good choice to be married to doesn't mean they should be thrown away as human beings.
> 
> More later.




@sokillme, I knew my words would not come out right, we have our understanding and it still stands. By no means do I think for one moment that you think waywards are monsters, truly I know this. I also know how you feel towards my situation and wife, and I agree with what you have posted here. When you post you make me think deeply, this is in reality a compliment to you. What you posted to justlost891 on her thread was in my opinion brilliant. You didn’t sugar coat what she did and had her thinking to what she needed to do. You are truly an asset to TAM, but mostly to the posters of TAM. We have had several discussions on my situation, all pleasant and very helpful. I do apologize for how my words came across, I knew it would be murky.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

In addition...it was better for me to disclose than it would have been for him to find out on his own.


----------



## 269370

Personal said:


> So you are talking about what I experienced. Since as far as I am aware my ex-wife cheated on me in one single instance at a party while I was away on a course for work. Then following my coming home, she guiltily confesses her indiscretion in short order afterwards.
> 
> Her behaviour was no accident or a mistake, women simply don't actually trip over and have their vaginas fall onto random penises at parties. So as a consequence of what was a choice, she lost her opportunity to be with me.
> 
> Now she offered all kinds of contrition, supplication and humiliation, in an attempt to satiate my disgust at her conduct yet I wouldn't have any of it. if a woman ****s me over in a sexual relationship, that's it they have reached the end. So there's no go around for them, they will be replaced.


No, I am not talking about your scenario because you clearly chose NOT to reconcile. 
I am talking about a situation where couples *DO WANT TO* reconcile.

Whether you should have reconciled is a completely separate topic. And it was clearly your call.

Obviously the WS cannot know beforehand whether the BS will want to R or not...so this is more like a philosophical musing.
That's why we told each other that we wouldn't want to know (if it was a one-off type thing). I would not have been able to say this 10 years ago though. I now feel that if she temporarily lost her mind (we are human, but also mostly animals), I would let her. But I would prefer not to know about it.


----------



## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i had a one time encounter...i confessed
> and i believe i did the right thing by confessing. He had the right to choose to divorce me or stay with me.


But have you asked him if *he* thinks it was the right thing and what his preference would have been, given what he knows now? (you confessing to him)


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> But have you asked him if *he* thinks it was the right thing and what his preference would have been, given what he knows now? (you confessing to him)


yes... we have discussed it for the past 35 years. Does he wish he did not know? No..he wishes i had not done it.

Regardless..it is too late now isn't it? and it really does not matter if you think it is right or wrong.


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i had a one time encounter...i confessed
> and i believe i did the right thing by confessing. He had the right to choose to divorce me or stay with me.


100% agree. Honesty in marriage makes a marriage.


----------



## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i had a one time encounter...i confessed
> and i believe i did the right thing by confessing. He had the right to choose to divorce me or stay with me.


Anyway, you did what you thought was right and it's not right of me to impose my thinking on anyone. 

I didn't really mean to start another discussion on a tangent.

It just always did strike me as odd that cake-eaters try to hide it but people who sincerely want to R and make things 'right' jump to confession whereas (IMO) it should be the other way around if they thought about it from the BS's point of view.


----------



## drifting on

ConanHub said:


> Nice post @drifting on
> 
> While I have meant each and every word I have said to you, I have stated many times that people can, and should, choose to be better people.
> 
> Your wife didn't start out vile or evil or she wouldn't have attracted you.
> 
> At some point she started choosing to be an evil person, no not totally evil in every way, but supremely selfish at the cost of you and others.
> 
> She has since reformed and is choosing good again which is making her a good and attractive wife as well. She better be buddy!!! You might not have been perfect but you deserve an honest, loving mate and you sure as hell didn't deserve her betrayal!
> 
> I'm perfectly fine with reformed people.
> 
> Your wife owed you and God. If your satisfied with her then I am as well unless I think you are being a doormat for abuse and I haven't gotten that vibe from you.
> 
> Her business with God is definitely above my pay grade but I sincerely hope she has repented to His satisfaction first and foremost.
> 
> My feelings are that I was really pissed that you were hurt my friend. I always will be but forgiveness is healing and I hope you don't believe I have anything other than cautious optimism about your wife.
> 
> Gotta go watch my little cousins play their first T-ball game! Take care brother!



@ConanHub, what you have posted here is spot on, which is exactly why our friendship has grown to what it is today. You are my brother, and I couldn’t have found a better one. Your posts have helped me tremendously, yet in the beginning you had no idea how much. Several points that stuck out to me about your posts, honesty, reform, and being healthy. You are a huge reason I am as healthy as I am today. For that I could never thank you enough, but I will say that breaking bread with you was a highlight for me in the last couple of years. For so long I wanted to shake your hand, say thank you to you directly. My wife is working towards repentance, she is correcting her relationship to God, and she has surrendered to God to guide her. 

As you know she was recently recognized for saving a persons life, she has in my opinion become a better person then she was in 2010-2011. I see it every day, but as a safety measure of my own, she will not get blind trust from me. I know blind trust was my mistake, my error, but at the moment she is returning to the ninetieth percentile. I think she can reach another level of trust from me, perhaps about ninety five percent, but that’s about all I can give. I think that would be the highest any spouse could get from me, infidelity does bring baggage to any relationship. God bless you brother, until we can see each other again.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

inmyprime said:


> Yes, I agree with all that. And that's the ideal.
> 
> However, you chose to end the marriage, others choose to reconcile. I am talking about cases where people choose to reconcile. In those cases, I don't see the point of confessing. People will point out that one shouldn't take away the choice of the BS to leave. And I am saying it's too high a price to pay (for the BS) *if the end result is to reconcile/stay together.*
> If it's a one-off 'diversion', a stupid mistake and the WS fully realises it, has remorse etc etc; that's the situation I am talking about.
> Not a situation where it keeps happening (cake-eating). In the latter situation no amount of R or confessing is going to help so the marriage will disintegrate anyway.


I'm not following your logic here with the not confessing.

If there's no confession, the BS doesn't know the marriage is damaged and there's no reconciliation.

The WS spends the rest of the marriage sustaining the deceit and the damage.

The BS spends the rest of the marriage wrongly believing they are in an undamaged marriage with a loyal spouse.

That is NOT reconciliation. That is the WS simply being selfish, avoiding the possible consequence of divorce, and yes, taking away the BS's choice in the matter.

And as others have mentioned, cheating speaks to lack of character in the WS, as does the ability to sustain ongoing deceit. That is going to come out in other ways that also damage the marriage. "Oh, I've succeeded in keeping my ONS from him. It won't hurt him if I also lie about what I bought today." "Oh, she doesn't have a clue what I did. That went very well. I think I'll do it again."

I don't think a WS can truly have remorse if they don't confess. Not confessing is just continuing the selfish behaviour that led them to cheat in the first place. There's nothing remorseful about that.


----------



## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> yes... we have discussed it for the past 35 years. Does he wish he did not know? No..he wishes i had not done it.


"No" as in you asked him that question or not? ("would it have been better for you if I hadn't told you?")
I wasn't sure what you meant with the first paragraph. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Regardless..it is too late now isn't it? and it really does not matter if you think it is right or wrong.


No, of course it doesn't.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

We could not have reconciled in the truest sense of reconciliation if i had not told him the truth. We could not have rebuilt our relationship on a foundation of secrets and lies. He had the right to choose divorce if that is what he wanted. I took away his power and his right by cheating. I owed him the right to decide what to do about it.

no he does not wish i had not told him...he wishes i had not cheated.


----------



## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I'm not following your logic here with the not confessing.
> 
> If there's no confession, the BS doesn't know the marriage is damaged and there's no reconciliation.
> 
> The WS spends the rest of the marriage sustaining the deceit and the damage.
> 
> The BS spends the rest of the marriage wrongly believing they are in an undamaged marriage with a loyal spouse.
> 
> That is NOT reconciliation. That is the WS simply being selfish, avoiding the possible consequence of divorce, and yes, taking away the BS's choice in the matter.
> 
> And as others have mentioned, cheating speaks to lack of character in the WS, as does the ability to sustain ongoing deceit. That is going to come out in other ways that also damage the marriage. "Oh, I've succeeded in keeping my ONS from him. It won't hurt him if I also lie about what I bought today." "Oh, she doesn't have a clue what I did. That went very well. I think I'll do it again."


Well, no that's the 'cake-eating' scenario again. It's not about successfully keeping a secret, it's about not destroying the other person. Someone compared the feeling of knowing that the spouse cheated on them to a death of a child and it just made me think the whole 'i must tell him the truth' thing may be overrated...



Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't think a WS can truly have remorse if they don't confess. Not confessing is just continuing the selfish behaviour that led them to cheat in the first place. There's nothing remorseful about that.


I don't really see what remorse has to do with the other person knowing or not knowing. You can still fee remorse regardless of whether you are awaiting consequences from your spouse... Are you talking about 'consequences'? Plenty of consequences of having to live with the guilt and strive to be a better partner in future. I don't hold such strong/purist views on this because I understand that we are all fallible to some extent and sometimes make mistakes. It's human nature to not always be perfect. That doesn't mean it's ok to cheat but I am also not sure it justifies destroying the partner by letting them know about the foolishness.

It's just my view and I respect others will disagree.


----------



## personofinterest

Dear Mrs JA....you are a very patient woman....whew


----------



## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Obviously the WS cannot know beforehand whether the BS will want to R or not...so this is more like a philosophical musing.


Indeed which is the point, one cannot reconcile absent knowing there is anything to reconcile. So your musings on this are nothing more than superfluous piffle.



inmyprime said:


> That's why we told each other that we wouldn't want to know (if it was a one-off type thing). I would not have been able to say this 10 years ago though. I now feel that if she temporarily lost her mind (we are human, but also mostly animals), I would let her. But I would prefer not to know about it.


Make no mistake sexual infidelity requires someone to choose to have sex with another for it to occur. Absent that choice, sexual infidelity can never occur. No matter how you try to rationalise it, with being an animal, losing ones mind etc. That end point of doing or not doing it, still requires someone to choose one or the other.

If I chose to cheat on a sexual partner, I would find someone who thinks like you very easy to cheat on, since someone like you will have afforded me the rationalisation to do exactly that.

That said hypothetically if I were your partner with the following proffered "I would let her". I would consider that an offer of explicit consent, to have sex with others as I like, whenever I like. While I wouldn't tell you I was doing it, because you don't want to know. So given those conditions I wouldn't be cheating on you either, because I have been given consent to **** whoever I please with a request not to tell you.

As to being mostly animals, we are animals full stop.

P.S. Do you realise that you have effectively told your wife, that she can have sex with whomever she likes, whenever she likes, just as long as she doesn't tell you about it?


----------



## 269370

There are two schools of thoughts on it. Lets just leave it at that.


----------



## drifting on

BluesPower said:


> You know, you may end up as one of the great reconciliation stories of all of the infidelity/marriage sites.
> 
> And, this is really a great post, I know that you are sincere when you write it.
> 
> I could never, ever, in a million years had done what you have done.
> 
> If it works for you, I salute you, I pray for you, and I am happy for you.
> 
> I am not sure that I could ever be man or un-man enough to do what you did. I just do not have it in me.
> 
> But for sure, I am happy for you...



@BluesPower, I thank you for the kind words, it’s been a rough and rocky ride at times, but each day gets better. I see you have come from another site on marriage, and I’m happy you have found TAM. Settle in and make a home here, I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels your posts are very good. I am very sincere and genuine to what I posted, in the beginning it was cathartic for me to post. Today I try to post as well meaning, authentic, and from a point of being vulnerable. Vulnerability was first thought of as weakness by me, but vulnerability is needed for relationships. I began to practice my vulnerability here at TAM, so I could learn to be vulnerable in my marriage. 

Whether or not my story and subsequent reconciliation becomes one of the top reconciliations is maybe an honor? Tough way to be honored but I know what you mean. Adversity has to have a a response, my first response was to get healthy. Make my decision from strength, realizing that with or without my wife I’ll be ok. That was probably the biggest asset to me, either way, divorce or reconciliation, I’ll be just fine. I can’t stress enough how uplifting that is when you reach that point, I will be ok. After I discovered this, I was able to watch my wife’s actions. I also began talking to other people of TAM, both betrayed and waywards. I learned so much from them, they’re help was invaluable. I will tell you I’ve cried while communicating with them, they’re help meant so much to me. @EI, @NJ2, @fivecreed, @LosingHim, @devastatedandlost, in no order helped me so much. 

We all respond differently, never say never, I said I would divorce if infidelity ever struck, but look at me now. No matter what you believe your reaction to be, man or unman, know that you are a man. You may surprise yourself, you may find reconciliation to be best for you. Never say never. I’m no more a man then anyone else here, that includes you, my response is not what I recommend for everyone. I truly appreciate your posts more and more each day, and sincerely hope you stay here for quite some time. God bless.


----------



## drifting on

inmyprime said:


> The 'why' is elusive. It's entirely possible they don't know themselves why they did it. They just did it. Without thinking or even with thinking: it could just be an impulse decision. The 'why' is the rationalisation created by the mind but if mind was not involved in the first place, just the instinct, then it's pointless to look for 'why'. You may never find it.




So true is this post, which is why I don’t think any answer to why will ever suffice. @MrsjohnAdams explained it best in my opinion. My wife could have written that post word for word. In fact I heard some of that as to the why, didn’t suffice, but that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth.


----------



## 269370

Personal said:


> Indeed which is the point, one cannot reconcile absent knowing there is anything to reconcile. So your musings on this are nothing more than superfluous piffle.
> 
> Make no mistake sexual infidelity requires someone to choose to have sex with another for it to occur. Absent that choice, sexual infidelity can never occur. No matter how you try to rationalise it, with being an animal, losing ones mind etc. That end point of doing or not doing it, still requires someone to choose one or the other.


Yes but you assume that all the choices we make are *rational* choices. Some of them are not. And an irrational choice is not the same as a rational choice (surprise!).



Personal said:


> If I chose to cheat on a sexual partner, I would find someone who thinks like you very easy to cheat on, since someone like you will have afforded me the rationalisation to do exactly that.
> 
> That said hypothetically if I were your partner with the following proffered "I would let her". I would consider that an offer of explicit consent, to have sex with others as I like, whenever I like. While I wouldn't tell you I was doing it, because you don't want to know. So given those conditions I wouldn't be cheating on you either, because I have been given consent to **** whoever I please with a request not to tell you.


Yes, it would seem so yet it hasn't happened to me (yet). I think if someone decides to cheat, they will cheat, whether they think their partner thinks 'like me' or not.



Personal said:


> As to being mostly animals, we are animals full stop.


Are animals able to make rational choices not to cheat then?


----------



## drifting on

@ConanHub, hope you had fun at the game!!!


----------



## 269370

Personal said:


> P.S. Do you realise that you have effectively told your wife, that she can have sex with whomever she likes, whenever she likes, just as long as she doesn't tell you about it?


Yes, but she told me the same thing though (not whomever/whenever, just if it happens once, by mistake). Out of the two of us, she is the one who has always been more afraid that I might cheat for some reason.
We said it to each other precisely because to us, it seemed like hurting the other person with truth over *one stupid mistake* seemed worse than the act itself.
With that said, we also don't assume it makes it ok to cheat. It's in case it....'happens'...which it seems to happen so much all around us...

Maybe it doesn't make sense but to us, it did.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime....john and i just had this discussion

Honey...should i have not told you i cheated?

well do you mean you should have asked me...honey do you want me to tell you i cheated or not...because if you don't want me to tell you...I will just shut up?

uh huh...that's how we roll in this house


----------



## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Yes but you assume that all the choices we make are *rational* choices. Some of them are not. And an irrational choice is not the same as a rational choice (surprise!).


There is no assumption at all, your claim is nonsense.



inmyprime said:


> Yes, it would seem so yet it hasn't happened to me (yet). I think if someone decides to cheat, they will cheat, whether they think their partner thinks 'like me' or not.


At the end of the day given your permission, I can't see how your wife could ever possibly cheat on you sexually at all. Since she has your explicit permission to have sex outside of your relationship, whenever she wishes to scratch that itch. So I can't imagine your wife ever cheating on you, since she has carte blanche to an open marriage if she so chooses.

On deciding (which is making a choice) to cheat, I concur with you that if someone decides to cheat they will do exactly that.



inmyprime said:


> Are animals able to make rational choices not to cheat then?


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. There can be rational or irrational arguments to cheat, just as there can be rational or or irrational arguments not to cheat.


----------



## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Yes, but she told me the same thing though (not whomever/whenever, just if it happens once, by mistake). Out of the two of us, she is the one who has always been more afraid that I might cheat for some reason.
> We said it to each other precisely because to us, it seemed like hurting the other person with truth over *one stupid mistake* seemed worse than the act itself.
> With that said, we also don't assume it makes it ok to cheat. It's in case it....'happens'...which it seems to happen so much all around us...
> 
> Maybe it doesn't make sense but to us, it did.


To paraphrase, you have said that you don't want to know if it happens, you are okay if it is a mistake and have said you would let her. All of those things provide permission for your wife to have sex with another or others if she so chooses (mistakenly of course), all without telling you.

Likewise if your wife has offered you the same, you also have permission to have sex with another or others of your choosing and to not tell her about it.

Therefore you both have an open marriage, since I don't see how either of you can cheat on each other if you both have each others blessings.

Plus for the record I see no problem with having an open marriage if that is your want.

That said if you don't actually want to have an open marriage, you would do well to think harder and reconsider what you have offered your wife.


----------



## 269370

There's no need to 'paraphrase', what I have written stands for itself.
I wouldn't declare it an open marriage until the cheating actually occurs. Being ok with cheating and not wanting to know if that occurs are a bit different.
Not sure why you are having such difficulties comprehending the difference.

If I had a daughter who misbehaved once (say, got arrested for drink driving), I am not going to disown her right away for an *irrational choice*, a stupid mistake that she very much regrets. Though according to you, that's what should be occurring since 'she decided and made a choice to **** up'.

Same with a wife. But because she is an adult, I wouldn't want to know and would want her to sort out her **** by herself, without getting my hands 'dirty' of teaching her about consequences and all that stuff. If she continues to have affairs and I do find out or she tells me that she does; that is likely going to be the end because she will probably have found a more suitable mate than me. 
That's all. Because my view is that since you can't stop cheating *by not allowing it*, the rational thing to do is to ask your spouse not to hurt you by telling you. Because for the to actually tell you would be a rational, conscious decision. With cheating itself, I am not that convinced otherwise you wouldn't have more than half of the people cheating on each other all the time.




Personal said:


> To paraphrase, you have said that you don't want to know if it happens, you are okay if it is a mistake and have said you would let her. All of those things provide permission for your wife to have sex with another or others if she so chooses (mistakenly of course), all without telling you.
> 
> Likewise if your wife has offered you the same, you also have permission to have sex with another or others of your choosing and to not tell her about it.
> 
> Therefore you both have an open marriage, since I don't see how either of you can cheat on each other if you both have each others blessings.
> 
> Plus for the record I see no problem with having an open marriage if that is your want.
> 
> That said if you don't actually want to have an open marriage, you would do well to think harder and reconsider what you have offered your wife.


----------



## Personal

inmyprime said:


> There's no need to 'paraphrase', what I have written stands for itself.
> I wouldn't declare it an open marriage until the cheating actually occurs. Being ok with cheating and not wanting to know if that occurs are a bit different.
> Not sure why you are having such difficulties comprehending the difference.


Again think harder.

If you tell your wife that you will let her have sex outside of your marriage and that you don't want to know about it. You have in the first instance told your wife, that she has your consent to have sex outside of your marital relationship. While in the second instance you have told her, that you don't want her to tell you if and when she does exactly that.

Now given your explicit consent, combined with your desire not to know about it. Your wife is welcome to have sex outside of your marital relationship without telling you, just as long as she doesn't tell you about it.

Which also coincidentally ensures that if your wife will, or has had sex with another or others by mistake and then chooses not to tell you. She won't have, or hasn't cheated on you sexually at all, because she has your consent to do exactly that combined with a requirement not to tell you if and or when she does that.

That said I do wish to congratulate you for establishing a marital relationship, where your wife effectively cannot cheat on you sexually at all. Just as long as she feels like she has made a mistake and chooses not to tell you about it.



inmyprime said:


> That's all. Because my view is that since you can't stop cheating *by not allowing it*, the rational thing to do is to ask your spouse not to hurt you by telling you. Because for the to actually tell you would be a rational, conscious decision. With cheating itself, I am not that convinced otherwise you wouldn't have more than half of the people cheating on each other all the time.


I concur that one cannot prevent sexual cheating by not allowing it. Absent making someone a literal prisoner, one cannot prevent a sexual partner from choosing to cheat on them if they choose to do that.

That said it is flawed logic to believe that asking someone not to tell you if they do that, while offering them consent to do that. Is anything but an endorsement for ones sexual partner/s to have sex with others, outside of their potential primary sexual relationship as they like.

I will also add that it is potentially one of the nice things about a truly open sexual relationships. Since one cannot sexually cheat on a sexual partner if all parties have consented to the other sharing sex with whomever they like, whenever they like and however they like.

So well done for having a level of cognisance, that allows you to start down that path.


----------



## 269370

Yep, we pretty much cheat-proofed ourselves. Who could have thought could be so easy and simple? 

Sometimes people get stuck inside their own 'logic' and can't get out of their tunnelled vision. I am not sure there's anything else I can say. (And very possibly that person is me but it works for us).

We have an understanding that we would do *everything in our human power not to cheat*; we don't want to cheat and don't plan to cheat. Nor has either of us ever cheated in over 20 years of being together. This is enough for me to sleep well at night. However should the unthinkable happen (and given the statistics, it would be foolish to bury your head in the sand and ignore them). I just don't want to know about it. You are extrapolating this as 'giving consent to cheat and be ok with cheating' then that's your extrapolation. It's not our understanding.

There are a few men who just don't want to go down that road and rather not know. It doesn't mean they would endorse it. MEM mentioned higher up that his wife had a crush on a work colleague and told him about it. He believed her and didn't pursue the matter further. It doesn't by any means mean that there is anything further to know. But someone else could be digging and digging and digging...and I don't think there's any point in that. If my wife came to me and said she had a crush on someone or similar, my reaction would be:
'ok, so what do you want me to do with this information? Why don't you go and sort out your guilt **** yourself, and come back to me when you think you want that marriage. I am not going to be put in the position of playing the sin absolver. Deal with it'.

I just don't feel it's fair to put it on the other partner that's all. I have some sympathy towards the fact that those things can happen to good people. But I disagree that it automatically follows that always choosing the truth route is necessarily the most considerate or best approach. Others disagree, that's fine. I thought this thread is all about respecting the other person's POV.




Personal said:


> Again think harder.
> 
> If you tell your wife that you will let her have sex outside of your marriage and that you don't want to know about it. You have in the first instance told your wife, that she has your consent to have sex outside of your marital relationship. While in the second instance you have told her, that you don't want her to tell you if and when she does exactly that.
> 
> Now given your explicit consent, combined with your desire not to know about it. Your wife is welcome to have sex outside of your marital relationship without telling you, just as long as she doesn't tell you about it.
> 
> Which also coincidentally ensures that if your wife will, or has had sex with another or others by mistake and then chooses not to tell you. She won't have, or hasn't cheated on you sexually at all, because she has your consent to do exactly that combined with a requirement not to tell you if and or when she does that.
> 
> That said I do wish to congratulate you for establishing a marital relationship, where your wife effectively cannot cheat on you sexually at all. Just as long as she feels like she has made a mistake and chooses not to tell you about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I concur that one cannot prevent sexual cheating by not allowing it. Absent making someone a literal prisoner, one cannot prevent a sexual partner from choosing to cheat on them if they choose to do that.
> 
> That said it is flawed logic to believe that asking someone not to tell you if they do that, while offering them consent to do that. Is anything but an endorsement for ones sexual partner/s to have sex with others, outside of their potential primary sexual relationship as they like.
> 
> I will also add that it is potentially one of the nice things about a truly open sexual relationships. Since one cannot sexually cheat on a sexual partner if all parties have consented to the other sharing sex with whomever they like, whenever they like and however they like.
> 
> So well done for having a level of cognisance, that allows you to start down that path.


----------



## 269370

Personal said:


> That said it is flawed logic to believe that asking someone not to tell you if they do that, *while offering them consent to do that.*


Yeah, neither of us have offered each other consent. We just agreed not to tell should this ever hit one of us. I keep repeating the same thing yet you keep saying that we 'gave each other consent' and then base the rest of the post on your own premise. :scratchhead:

I have no problem if people think that that is stupid. I don't really care. But I would prefer they would not *tell* me that  especially if they are loading their own straw men onto it.


----------



## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Yeah, neither of us have offered each other consent. We just agreed not to tell should this ever hit one of us. I keep repeating the same thing yet you keep saying that we 'gave each other consent' and then base the rest of the post on your own premise. :scratchhead:
> 
> I have no problem if people think that that is stupid. I don't really care. But I would prefer they would not *tell* me that  especially if they are loading their own straw men onto it.





inmyprime said:


> *I would let her*. But I would prefer not to know about it.


Looks like consent to me.


----------



## 269370

Personal said:


> Looks like consent to me.


Maybe this was unfortunate phrasing on my part. I meant that there's nothing I can do to stop her from cheating. Not that I would willingly and *knowingly* encourage her to do it. I think I clarified it since.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I could have most likely gone my whole life never telling John that i cheated. There were only 2 people who knew...me and the om. I could have gone the rest of my life pretending that nothing was wrong. I believe people actually do this all of the time. I would have saved John immense pain and heart ache by not telling him. I have never declared that we have done everything right. We have not....we have made many many mistakes along the way.

I have continually said in this thread that everyone is different and has to make decisions about their relationships based on what they believe to be right.

We never discussed in our 11 years of marriage if we cheated would we want to know. We did discuss cheating. I said I would forgive him. He said he would not forgive me. But we never said don't tell me. So when I confessed I knew that the possibility existed that he would divorce me....but i also knew he had a right to make that decision for himself based on the truth of what i had done.

I did what i deemed the right thing. 99% of therapists agree with my decision. I did what i thought was right for him. 

35 years later....my regret is cheating...not being forthright and honest. It was not the truth that hurt him...it was the cheating.

There is a thread here in CWI...that is ongoing about this very subject. The op says he is not going to tell his wife about his indiscretions because he does not want to hurt her. I made 2 posts in that thread...and i said to him...the first step in reconciliation is honestly and accountability. You do not want to tell your wife you cheated to save YOU...not her. She has a right to know WHO she is married to and she has a right to make the decision to remain in that relationship based on TRUTH. You hurt her when you cheated....it wont be the truth that hurts her. Cheating is the most selfish thing you can do in a relationship...allowing her to know the truth empowers her to make decisions for herself based on your selfish behavior. 

I believe when we cheat we take away our spouses power. We made a decision about them, for them, without any input from them. Shouldn't we then give them back the power to decide if they want to remain in this broken relationship or get out? and the only way to give them that power is to tell them what we did.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You do not want to tell your wife you cheated to save YOU...not her.


For me, this would have been the exact opposite. I don't think confessing is the 'courageous' or 'brave' thing to do; it would be transferring my guilt onto my partner: "here you go, you decide what you want to do with this".

And the thing is, it is SO easy to put the ball in the other person's court simply by asking: 'would you want me to tell you if I ever cheated on you?'. This question can be asked at ANY point in the relationship, whether one has cheated already or not. I would not want to pretend to know what my partner would want or what would be the best for them, *on their behalf* by simply going ahead and telling them.

If my wife told me that she would *not* forgive me for cheating then the only reason for telling her that I have cheated, would be to ensure that she breaks up with me. In fact I would probably still not tell her and just break up myself. If i did tell her, her response would be: "You knew perfectly well that I would not forgive you yet you still come here and tell me. You are now leaving me no choice but to break up with you because anything else, would be more than humiliation". 

In my experience, therapists often don't know WTF they are talking about. They are not supposed to advise which course of action one should take (at least not over here). It's up to the person to decide what's right for them and the therapist usually nods along.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> For me, this would have been the exact opposite. I don't think confessing is the 'courageous' or 'brave' thing to do.
> And the thing is, it is SO easy to put the ball in the other person's court simply by asking: 'would you want me to tell you if I ever cheated on you?'. This question can be asked at ANY point in the relationship, whether one has cheated already or not. I would not want to pretend to know what my partner would want or what would be the best for them, *on their behalf* by simply going ahead and telling them.
> 
> If my wife told me that she would *not* forgive me for cheating then the only reason for telling her that I have cheated, would be to ensure that she breaks up with me. In fact I would probably still not tell her and just break up myself. If i did tell her, her response would be: "You knew perfectly well that I would not forgive you yet you still come here and tell me. You are now leaving me no choice but to break up with you because anything else, would be more than humiliation".
> 
> In my experience, therapists often don't know WTF they are talking about. They are not suppose to advise these things in any case. It's up to the person to decide what's right for them and the therapist usually nods along.


well the difference between the two of us is this...I cheated and did what i thought was the right thing to do and you are speculating.

and since you have had this discussion and have decided this is the way you want to handle it...I guess you will never know if your wife has been faithful or not.'

I do have a question for you....if your wife cheated...and did as you wish...did not tell you....and 10 years later...you found out that she had cheated....how do you think you might react? Do you think you could shrug it off and say..well i told her i did not want to know so no harm done? or do you think you might react by divorcing her? 

See...when you don't tell...there is always a possibility of disclosure...and the odds of reconciliation are much higher in cases where the wayward confesses rather than the infidelity being discovered.

It is like playing Russian Roulette...you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. The best thing to do is not cheat...but if you cheat....you stand to lose everything regardless of how you choose to handle it.

So my point to you is this...instead of concentrating on discussing don't tell me...the best things to discuss is don't cheat.

It is too late for me...I already cheated and I confessed. I did what I thought was right. I am 35 years into reconciliation. Can I ask you...how long have you been married? I am willing to bet...I have been reconciled longer than you have even been married.I must have done something right.


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## personofinterest

> and since you have had this discussion and have decided this is the way you want to handle it...I guess you will never know if your wife has been faithful or not.'


Pretty much


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> well the difference between the two of us is this...I cheated and did what i thought was the right thing to do and you are speculating.
> 
> 
> 
> and since you have had this discussion and have decided this is the way you want to handle it...I guess you will never know if your wife has been faithful or not.'
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a question for you....if your wife cheated...and did as you wish...did not tell you....and 10 years later...you found out that she had cheated....how do you think you might react? Do you think you could shrug it off and say..well i told her i did not want to know so no harm done? or do you think you might react by divorcing her?
> 
> 
> 
> See...when you don't tell...there is always a possibility of disclosure...and the odds of reconciliation are much higher in cases where the wayward confesses rather than the infidelity being discovered.
> 
> 
> 
> It is like playing Russian Roulette...you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. The best thing to do is not cheat...but if you cheat....you stand to lose everything regardless of how you choose to handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> So my point to you is this...instead of concentrating on discussing don't tell me...the best things to discuss is don't cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> It is too late for me...I already cheated and I confessed. I did what I thought was right. I am 35 years into reconciliation. Can I ask you...how long have you been married? I am willing to bet...I have been reconciled longer than you have even been married.I must have done something right.




Yes that is true. I do not know with 100% certainty if she cheated. And more importantly: I do not want to know. (Which she knows).
But no couple can be 100% certain their partner hasn’t cheated, that’s my point. There is always that possibility. Just because we decided on this does not mean it’s more or less likely to happen to us. It’s just as likely as with anybody else. The only difference is that we discussed it and there will be a difference in the handling of the situation afterwards. It’s better not to cheat in the first place, but that’s not really the argument.
If I found out 10 years later that my wife cheated: It depends on many things...and on the extent. If it was one stupid digression and the marriage has been amazing otherwise I would not dwell on it too much. I would still prefer she didn’t tell me and unless our marriage was going really badly, I wouldn’t really try to look hard for signs that she may have cheated.
I also have a feeling that some want to be caught and leave too many clues around.

I have been together with my wife for 22 years, since we were 16. I was not implying ‘my marriage is better than yours’ just giving a perspective and obviously it doesn’t really help you now. I’m not sure what it is I can say that can help you or your husband but the way you write doesn’t seem like you particularly need or expect help. You do go into length justifying and explaining, some of which I don’t entirely follow, but then you negate it immediately by saying that you don’t owe anyone an explanation or justification. Either is fair enough.

I wish you and your husband another 35 years of happy marriage.


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## Mrs. John Adams

You are right... we don’t need help. And I am not justifying anything.... you brought up the subject by asking me if I confessed and then proceeded to tell me how I mishandled the situation. 

I am trying to help you understand that most of the betrayed folks here will not share your opinion. Why? Because they have already been betrayed. Have you noticed a pattern in the responses you have received? They would still want to know their spouse had cheated. Why? Because they know that a marriage based on lies is destined to fail. 

You stated that you don’t know what you would do if you found out later about infidelity that you do not know how you might react. That is true if everyone here. We think we might know how we would respond... but like any tradgedy in life... we don’t know how we might react.

My husband said if I ever cheated he would divorce me. He didnt. Because when you are truly faced with it.. you really don’t know. Circumstances, frame of mind, all have an impact in our reactions... and we handle things the best way we know how at the time.

I hope you are never ever faced with having to make a decision about infidelity. I hope your lines of communication remain open and neither of you is ever faced with adversity. I hope you live happily ever after. 

I hope my husband and I live happily ever after. We have not had a storybook life... and when we met at 16 and 18 we did not know what the future held for us. We could never have predicted the tradgedies that would lie ahead of us ... nor did we know the joys and happiness that would come.

We have a good life... not a perfect one.. and the one sure thing I do know... is that he loves me... more than I deserve. I failed him... and he graciously gave me a gift I did not deserve.... the gift of reconciliation.


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## BluesPower

inmyprime said:


> It's more like: there's a whole in the wall behind a painting. Unless you move it aside, you will never know.
> Of course if the foundations are cracked, then it will show in many ways, not just through cheating. Eventually the whole thing will collapse. Confession or no confession.
> 
> Btw, I am talking about a specific scenario where the WS is determined to fully remorse/reconcile and continue with the marriage.
> I know this viewpoint is not going to go down well here but it's just my view.
> It's the Schroedinger's Cat principle from the husband's point of view.
> 
> If the goal is to do the whole remorse/reconcile dance, what's the use of getting the BS involved, aside from relieving yourself from guilt?
> 
> For example take a specific scenario such as MJA's case: they reconciled and seem happy from what I gather but must have gone through a lot to get there. However purely from the husband's point of view: is the glad that he knows? Has he been asked this question? Would he not wish his wife hadn't told him and came to all these realisations by herself/on her own? The end result would have been the same (they would still be together) except that the husband wouldn't have been through hell and back. I don't see the purpose for the telling except it being for the benefit of the WS only.
> 
> Not getting the BS involved is a bit like doing successful surgery under general anaesthetic: as a patient, you don't know what happened but you are healed at the end when you wake up. Confessing is like going through the same surgery without any anesthetic...


Some people think this way, I get that. But the thing is that the WS could never get to remorse without seeing the pain in the eyes of the BS. Most never get there anyway. 

But out of love, responsibility, guilt, duty, or whatever, I think the WS should tell the BS. 

Secrets like that eat at relationships, so by not telling, if the infidelity did not destroy the marriage, the secret eventually will...


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are right... we don’t need help. And I am not justifying anything.... you brought up the subject by asking me if I confessed and then proceeded to tell me how I mishandled the situation.
> 
> I am trying to help you understand that most of the betrayed folks here will not share your opinion. Why? Because they have already been betrayed. Have you noticed a pattern in the responses you have received? They would still want to know their spouse had cheated. Why? Because they know that a marriage based on lies is destined to fail.
> 
> You stated that you don’t know what you would do if you found out later about infidelity that you do not know how you might react. That is true if everyone here. We think we might know how we would respond... but like any tradgedy in life... we don’t know how we might react.
> 
> My husband said if I ever cheated he would divorce me. He didnt. Because when you are truly faced with it.. you really don’t know. Circumstances, frame of mind, all have an impact in our reactions... and we handle things the best way we know how at the time.
> 
> I hope you are never ever faced with having to make a decision about infidelity. I hope your lines of communication remain open and neither of you is ever faced with adversity. I hope you live happily ever after.
> 
> I hope my husband and I live happily ever after. We have not had a storybook life... and when we met at 16 and 18 we did not know what the future held for us. We could never have predicted the tradgedies that would lie ahead of us ... nor did we know the joys and happiness that would come.
> 
> We have a good life... not a perfect one.. and the one sure thing I do know... is that he loves me... more than I deserve. I failed him... and he graciously gave me a gift I did not deserve.... the gift of reconciliation.



You are right, I have not experienced the tragedy of discovering infidelity. I have experienced few other tragedies though that life happily throws at us and know from experience that in extreme situations like these, one cannot predict with certainty how one would react. We can make a ‘plan’ all we want but of course there is no way of knowing for sure. Hence my honest answer.


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## katies

you don't want to know if your wife shared her body with another man?


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I could have most likely gone my whole life never telling John that i cheated. There were only 2 people who knew...me and the om. I could have gone the rest of my life pretending that nothing was wrong. I believe people actually do this all of the time. I would have saved John immense pain and heart ache by not telling him. I have never declared that we have done everything right. We have not....we have made many many mistakes along the way.
> 
> I have continually said in this thread that everyone is different and has to make decisions about their relationships based on what they believe to be right.
> 
> We never discussed in our 11 years of marriage if we cheated would we want to know. We did discuss cheating. I said I would forgive him. He said he would not forgive me. But we never said don't tell me. So when I confessed I knew that the possibility existed that he would divorce me....but i also knew he had a right to make that decision for himself based on the truth of what i had done.
> 
> I did what i deemed the right thing. 99% of therapists agree with my decision. I did what i thought was right for him.
> 
> 35 years later....my regret is cheating...not being forthright and honest. It was not the truth that hurt him...it was the cheating.
> 
> There is a thread here in CWI...that is ongoing about this very subject. The op says he is not going to tell his wife about his indiscretions because he does not want to hurt her. I made 2 posts in that thread...and i said to him...the first step in reconciliation is honestly and accountability. You do not want to tell your wife you cheated to save YOU...not her. She has a right to know WHO she is married to and she has a right to make the decision to remain in that relationship based on TRUTH. You hurt her when you cheated....it wont be the truth that hurts her. Cheating is the most selfish thing you can do in a relationship...allowing her to know the truth empowers her to make decisions for herself based on your selfish behavior.
> 
> I believe when we cheat we take away our spouses power. We made a decision about them, for them, without any input from them. Shouldn't we then give them back the power to decide if they want to remain in this broken relationship or get out? and the only way to give them that power is to tell them what we did.


That choice, choosing to do the honorable thing shaped your healing and probably saved your marriage IMO. It was an act of character which changed the direction of were you were going at the time.


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> For me, this would have been the exact opposite. I don't think confessing is the 'courageous' or 'brave' thing to do; it would be transferring my guilt onto my partner: "here you go, you decide what you want to do with this".
> 
> And the thing is, it is SO easy to put the ball in the other person's court simply by asking: 'would you want me to tell you if I ever cheated on you?'. This question can be asked at ANY point in the relationship, whether one has cheated already or not. I would not want to pretend to know what my partner would want or what would be the best for them, *on their behalf* by simply going ahead and telling them.
> 
> If my wife told me that she would *not* forgive me for cheating then the only reason for telling her that I have cheated, would be to ensure that she breaks up with me. In fact I would probably still not tell her and just break up myself. If i did tell her, her response would be: "You knew perfectly well that I would not forgive you yet you still come here and tell me. You are now leaving me no choice but to break up with you because anything else, would be more than humiliation".
> 
> In my experience, therapists often don't know WTF they are talking about. They are not supposed to advise which course of action one should take (at least not over here). It's up to the person to decide what's right for them and the therapist usually nods along.


What if your spouse would want to know and says so. I would want to know.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> What if your spouse would want to know and says so. I would want to know.



She was the first one who said that she wouldn’t want to know if I cheated. I thought about it for a bit and it made sense to me so I said the same.
I can’t remember how the conversation came about. We were talking about cheating. She said it would hurt her too much.

The thing is, it’s easy to find out what’s the best thing for your spouse: you just ask.
We can’t be the only two people in the world who feel like this.



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## Mrs. John Adams

Don’t you find it interesting though that most everyone who has experienced infidelity has said they would want to know? 

So having a conversation about something is very different than truly living it. 

I may tell John... don’t do anything to save me if I am dying... and he may agree to it... but if the time really came when he had to make that decision he may change his mind.

You see when you are discussing a subject like infidelity you are thinking it will never happen to you. 

When John and I talked about it we never dreamed it would someday become reality. 
He said he would divorce me. He didn’t. 

That’s the point I keep trying to drive home. We don’t know how we will react. 

Sokillme is probably right.. my confession probably saved my marriage. 

Let me give you another example. Serial cheaters do so because they have not held themselves accountable for their actions. If they don’t confess and their spouse has not found out about it... what’s to stop them from repeating the offense? They got by with it. The same thread I referenced earlier in cwi is in this very situation. He has cheated numerous times and his poor wife does not know. 

I believe she has the right to know who she is married to.

In your case you and your wife have told each other not to tell. You have agreed to keep secrets between you. But it is only because you believe it will never happen. 

So let me ask you this.. what if she cheats and then cheats and then cheats.. is there a point that you think you might want to know?


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## hoblob

I can tell you that I would want to. My fiancee wouldn't want to know. We discussed it at length. She said "if it is a ONS and just sex, I don't want to know."
But I carried on an affair, she would. 
I think someone said it best.
There are two schools of thought. Not everyone thinks the same. People need to understand that and get over it.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I may tell John... don’t do anything to save me if I am dying... and he may agree to it... but if the time really came when he had to make that decision he may change his mind.



Presumably you must have heard what a DNR is? This is precisely the same case.
If someone had a DNR issued, there is a reason why a family member is not allowed to override it, even if it makes them feel better. *Because it’s about the patient's wishes, not about you.
*
If your husband said he would divorce you if he found out but then didn’t when you told him, I can only presume that he probably hasn’t thought about it very hard.

I could not make that promise because I know deep in my heart that it wouldn’t be such a straightforward decision for me. Cheat=divorce.

I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me when you say that ‘I don’t know what I would do because it hasn’t happened to me’. I agree 100% with this and all my thinking on this issue is based precisely on this premise.

However I do know that if my spouse asks me not to tell should it ever happen, I will certainly honour her wishes. 

Can I coin a DNT order? (Do not tell).


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## personofinterest

I have never seen lying by omission defended with such moral ferocity.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> I have never seen lying by omission defended with such moral ferocity.


You can call it that if you like. However it has nothing to do with the subject discussed.


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## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> You can call it that if you like. However it has nothing to do with the subject discussed.


I will betray my vows and then go on with my life. Lying by omission.

Pretty topical.


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Don’t you find it interesting though that most everyone who has experienced infidelity has said they would want to know?
> 
> So having a conversation about something is very different than truly living it.
> 
> I may tell John... don’t do anything to save me if I am dying... and he may agree to it... but if the time really came when he had to make that decision he may change his mind.
> 
> You see when you are discussing a subject like infidelity you are thinking it will never happen to you.
> 
> When John and I talked about it we never dreamed it would someday become reality.
> He said he would divorce me. He didn’t.
> 
> That’s the point I keep trying to drive home. We don’t know how we will react.
> 
> Sokillme is probably right.. my confession probably saved my marriage.
> 
> Let me give you another example. Serial cheaters do so because they have not held themselves accountable for their actions. If they don’t confess and their spouse has not found out about it... what’s to stop them from repeating the offense? They got by with it. The same thread I referenced earlier in cwi is in this very situation. He has cheated numerous times and his poor wife does not know.
> 
> I believe she has the right to know who she is married to.
> 
> In your case you and your wife have told each other not to tell. You have agreed to keep secrets between you. But it is only because you believe it will never happen.
> 
> So let me ask you this.. what if she cheats and then cheats and then cheats.. is there a point that you think you might want to know?


Your confession saved yourself. The women you would have been compared to the women you are would have been vastly different. People don't understand this but honor is very important. Being able to look at yourself in the mirror with pride sets the whole tone for your life and your actions. It can be the difference of I don't care what I do or who I am because i am already bad or I do good because I am good. This is important, probably the MOST important thing.

Personal integrity and character is the ONLY thing that you have complete control over, therefore it is the only honest assessment you can make of yourself. Money, fame, jobs, status, beauty and people can all change and you only have some influence on those things. How you treat others is the one place where you have total control.


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## Mrs. John Adams

In my prime... he has had 35 to think about it. He did not divorce me for many reasons... Not thinking about it was certainly not one of them. He thought about it day and night... he analyzed... he processed... yes... he thought about it.

Skm... I understand what you are saying and I agree with you... my confession probably did save me... but I like to think John saved me.


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## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> In my prime... he has had 35 to think about it. He did not divorce me for many reasons... Not thinking about it was certainly not one of them. He thought about it day and night... he analyzed... he processed... yes... he thought about it.
> 
> Skm... I understand what you are saying and I agree with you... my confession probably did save me... but I like to think John saved me.


So you were drowning and raised your hand for help and your husband pulled you out. But if he wasn't there you may have been able to have gotten yourself out. If you divorced, starting your path to being honest was a putting you on the road to a better person and a better life. You may have however never gotten to some of the issues we talked about though. So yes he also saved your life.


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## Quality

inmyprime said:


> She was the first one who said that she wouldn’t want to know if I cheated. I thought about it for a bit and it made sense to me so I said the same.
> I can’t remember how the conversation came about. We were talking about cheating. She said it would hurt her too much.
> 
> The thing is, it’s easy to find out what’s the best thing for your spouse: you just ask.
> We can’t be the only two people in the world who feel like this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just because she said SHE wouldn't want to know doesn't mean it has to be reciprocal.

As a marriage coach, I seek to make marriages better NOW and in the future. Accordingly, and based upon the rest of this post, I would encourage you to revisit this conversation with your wife and say something similar to the following:

"A long time ago you said you didn't want to know whether I cheated or not and I took that to be pretty firm and logical reciprocal agreement in our marriage. It made sense to me at the time because we'd seen lots of friends and acquaintances seemingly destroy their marriages and families over a one-off mess up after some silly night out drinking or whatever and there was no way we wanted "us" to end like that. Before you get alarmed, I haven't cheated. so it's not about that. I just wanted to revisit the subject and say that you are free to feel the same way or not but from this day forward I affirmatively would want to know if you mess up and have anything resembling an affair or feelings for another bloke. Despite the fact if would hurt and perhaps devastate me, I love and cherish you, our marriage and family too much to risk having it blow up over something I didn't know about. After reading around the internet on how to improve myself as a husband, I discovered from reading about others that it's actually affairs and/or secret that destroy marriage and not whether or not I know the truth. You may think you can't handle it and that's your choice, but, for me, I'd like our relationship|marriage to continue on in a more open and intimate manner which necessitates me knowing your thoughts, feelings and acitons with regards to our relationship. I'm not looking to control you, but rather I believe it might be a more deliberate and honest way of protecting us. I simply can't fix something I don't know about and I've read about too many relationships that were destroyed when people tried fixing things alone. We're strong enough NOW, I believe, to face anything and everything together." 



My explanation and thoughts on this. 

Your wife not wanting to know because it would hurt too bad is presuming that if you did it, you'd remain committed to your marriage and it'd very likely be a one-off 'mistake'. It's not a terrible bet if you two get along well since it's unlikely you're going to be running off with anyone and divorcing her. It's how a lot of men undertake or commit adultery. However, women, more often than not, don't have casual affairs. Her "one-off" is quite likely to occur after she's already had months of buildup and developed a full relationship with the guy. Her "secret' ---- deal with it --- relationship is MUCH more likely to involve significant feelings along with the requisite rationalizations and justifications {which, ironically, would include the argument that you'd actually given her consent to pursue and undertake it ---- I'm not saying I agree with Personal's posts at all as I agree with you that not wanting to know is not actually consent -- My thought just is, that if and when your wife ever goes down the affair path, her rationalizations and justifications for HAVING DONE SO {after the fact - wayward fog} will likely sound exactly like Personal's posts above} 

^^ @Personal - are you an open marriage yourself or are you swingers??? Even though I disagree, I see the logic you are applying and your obstinance hints at a vested interest in the conclusion. 

Back to inmyprime --- Your wife isn't here to convince otherwise so I'm just trying to convince you to do better because one thing that ACTUALLY keeps a wife from cheating {or wanting to cheat or from even having a one off} is having a loving and intimate marriage. Your wife should feel, at an intimate level, that you cherish her enough to WANT to be strong for her and protect her and hold her accountable, not because she's a piece of property to be owned, but because you love her that much. Such might actually do more to prevent that one-off mistake that might, if she does it, destroy your marriage and family than this notion of "if you love someone set them free" or "that if she finds someone more compatible she's free to go". Nothing makes a woman more vulnerable to an affair than thinking her husband just doesn't care. Not to mention, it's often an OM's first point of manipulation - he'll say "If you were my wife, I'd have you locked up at home and treasure you forever".

The dark side of blind trust is lack of care. Notice your wife said she didn't want to know because it would hurt her too much. Did you say the same thing to her or did you just agree because it was logical to you? Lots of husbands fall into this trap of relying on their logic and figuring people that want to cheat will find a way. The errantly think the jealous possessive type guys are the ones that actually get cheated on more {oppositional theory - people do what their told not to do}. This likely prompted you to simply go along with her plan without actually expressing how much you actually would care and be devastated to find out she cheated {which might have actually been the response she was hoping to illicit - Or - she was looking for permission NOT to tell you about what she did the week before --- just thinking it probably really wasn't to hear you say "I'm fine with you keeping secrets too"}.

I, again, got interrupted many times writing this over several hours and hope it's helpful to you. It's never too late to change your mind and do better or not. It's your life.


----------



## Quality

Mrs. John Adams said:


> In my prime... he has had 35 to think about it. He did not divorce me for many reasons... Not thinking about it was certainly not one of them. He thought about it day and night... he analyzed... he processed... yes... he thought about it.
> 
> Skm... I understand what you are saying and I agree with you... my confession probably did save me... but I like to think John saved me.


I like the way John MacArthur puts it: 

"Men, if you love a woman, you will do everything in your power to maintain her holiness, her virtue, her righteousness, and her purity . . . every day you live. You'll never put her in a compromising situation where she would become angered, because that's a sin. You would never induce an argument out of her, because that's a sin. You would do nothing to defile her. You would never let her see anything or expose her to anything, or let her indulge in anything that would in any way bring impurity into her life. Love always seeks to purify."

The Husband's Sanctifying Role in Marriage


Really, the whole article goes to what I just posted to Inmyprime above. A husband can't fulfill his biblical role and responsibilities to his wife and God by saying he'd be too hurt to learn his wife cheated {or had a one-off or feelings for someone else}. 

It's the entire process of sins, repentance, forgiveness, reconciliation and sanctification {really, the story of the Gospel} that has made all the difference and added so much depth, meaning and understanding to our lives, our marriage, our family, our children and our legacy. The notion of simply "not knowing" and missing out on everything that's happened after my wife's sins {to be clear - that part sucked} is just inconceivable to me.


----------



## Personal

Quality said:


> ^^ @Personal - are you an open marriage yourself or are you swingers??? Even though I disagree, I see the logic you are applying and your obstinance hints at a vested interest in the conclusion.


I am not in an open marriage nor am I a swinger. I have also never been in an open marriage and have never been a swinger, likewise I am not wanting either of those things.


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## 269370

​


sokillme said:


> That choice, choosing to do the honorable thing shaped your healing and probably saved your marriage IMO. It was an act of character which changed the direction of were you were going at the time.


Yet the same tactic has not really done much for Personal's ex-wife who also fessed up but was dumped.

I think you may find that a lot of guys don't care how remorseful or honest the WS is. It's entirely up to the BS what happens next after the confession.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> In your case you and your wife have told each other not to tell. You have agreed to keep secrets between you. But it is only because you believe it will never happen.
> 
> So let me ask you this.. what if she cheats and then cheats and then cheats.. is there a point that you think you might want to know?


We discussed it precisely because we believe it can and does happen to anyone. Even though we don't want it to happen to us but we also don't want anyone we know to get sick. That's just unrealistic.

If she cheats and cheats...I will know because she will not be interested in the marriage anymore at which point we will break up. Whether she slept with guys or not by then will be a moot point. Your sentence seems to imply that unless you confess, you will become a serial cheater. Why?


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> ​
> Yet the same tactic has not really done much for Personal's ex-wife who also fessed up but was dumped.
> 
> I think you may find that a lot of guys don't care how remorseful or honest the WS is. It's entirely up to the BS what happens next after the confession.


Of course it doesn't always save the marriage. It wouldn't save mine if it happened. But it does save the cheater in my mind, at least a little bit. It's a foundation on which to change.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> Of course it doesn't always save the marriage. It wouldn't save mine if it happened. But it does save the cheater in my mind, at least a little bit. It's a foundation on which to change.


Yes, and that was my point all along: confession is *all about the cheater*. and IMO, that should not be the *main* consideration. *The Victim* is the main consideration in that equation IMO. 
You started the thread off quite well I thought (with a few simplifications), now you seem to have 'flipped'


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> I will betray my vows and then go on with my life. Lying by omission.
> 
> Pretty topical.


Who is advocating this?


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> In my prime... he has had 35 to think about it. He did not divorce me for many reasons... Not thinking about it was certainly not one of them. He thought about it day and night... he analyzed... he processed... yes... he thought about it.


You lost me here. I meant that if he said to you that he would divorce you if he ever found out you would cheat on him, but then didn't divorce after you did cheat; this means that he hasn't thought about this scenario hard enough *before the cheating occurred*. Otherwise he would have divorced you, like he originally proclaimed, or he would not have said that he would divorce you *before* you cheated. (Does it make sense?)

Cheating aside, I would feel backed into a corner with no choice but to divorce if I said the same to my wife and she would still come to me to tell me about her cheating, knowing what I said to her. It's an impossible situation to be in, as the BS. That's partly also the reason why I would say this to my wife (not to tell me if she cheats), to leave myself some room, and a smidgeon of self-respect, in case I do decide that I cannot live without her, even if she did cheat once. Otherwise how can she respect me if I keep going back on my promises?

I am saying this not because I am trying to judge you (if it appears this way, it's not meant to), but to understand why mine and your brains are wired so completely differently. I am not sure I will be able to get to the bottom of it.


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## Mrs. John Adams

I will just make one more statement...I have lived it...you are speculating. God I hope you never have to find out.


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## 269370

Quality said:


> Just because she said SHE wouldn't want to know doesn't mean it has to be reciprocal.


I never said it *had* to be reciprocal, I wanted it to be, because what she said made complete sense to me.



Quality said:


> As a marriage coach, I seek to make marriages better NOW and in the future. Accordingly, and based upon the rest of this post, I would encourage you to revisit this conversation with your wife and say something similar to the following:
> 
> "A long time ago you said you didn't want to know whether I cheated or not and I took that to be pretty firm and logical reciprocal agreement in our marriage. It made sense to me at the time because we'd seen lots of friends and acquaintances seemingly destroy their marriages and families over a one-off mess up after some silly night out drinking or whatever and there was no way we wanted "us" to end like that. Before you get alarmed, I haven't cheated. so it's not about that. I just wanted to revisit the subject and say that you are free to feel the same way or not but from this day forward I affirmatively would want to know if you mess up and have anything resembling an affair or feelings for another bloke. Despite the fact if would hurt and perhaps devastate me, I love and cherish you, our marriage and family too much to risk having it blow up over something I didn't know about. After reading around the internet on how to improve myself as a husband, I discovered from reading about others that it's actually affairs and/or secret that destroy marriage and not whether or not I know the truth. You may think you can't handle it and that's your choice, but, for me, I'd like our relationship|marriage to continue on in a more open and intimate manner which necessitates me knowing your thoughts, feelings and acitons with regards to our relationship. I'm not looking to control you, but rather I believe it might be a more deliberate and honest way of protecting us. I simply can't fix something I don't know about and I've read about too many relationships that were destroyed when people tried fixing things alone. We're strong enough NOW, I believe, to face anything and everything together."


But why would I want to say this if my thinking hasn't changed on this :wink2: *I still don't want to know!*




Quality said:


> My explanation and thoughts on this.
> 
> Your wife not wanting to know because it would hurt too bad is presuming that if you did it, you'd remain committed to your marriage and it'd very likely be a one-off 'mistake'. It's not a terrible bet if you two get along well since it's unlikely you're going to be running off with anyone and divorcing her. It's how a lot of men undertake or commit adultery. However, women, more often than not, don't have casual affairs. Her "one-off" is quite likely to occur after she's already had months of buildup and developed a full relationship with the guy. Her "secret' ---- deal with it --- relationship is MUCH more likely to involve significant feelings along with the requisite rationalizations and justifications {which, ironically, would include the argument that you'd actually given her consent to pursue and undertake it ---- I'm not saying I agree with Personal's posts at all as I agree with you that not wanting to know is not actually consent -- My thought just is, that if and when your wife ever goes down the affair path, her rationalizations and justifications for HAVING DONE SO {after the fact - wayward fog} will likely sound exactly like Personal's posts above}


Of course it presumes we'd still both want to be committed to the marriage. It's the whole point why being considerate and honouring your spouse's wishes of not wanting to know trumps all the guilt dumping onto your spouse for no other reason than to come to terms with the cheater's guilt. I again refer the honourable gentleman to the principle of a DNR order (Do Not Resuscitate Order) that nobody can overrule this order precisely because nobody should give a sh1t what the relatives feel: *it's about the patient's life (death) and their wishes only.*

It has exactly ZERO to do with lying or lying by omission but everything to do with honouring your spouses wishes. When it comes to DNR, there will always be people who will say 'but how can you knowingly kill someone?' You don't. It's an extraordinary situation that requires and deserves extraordinary measures.




Quality said:


> Back to inmyprime --- Your wife isn't here to convince otherwise so I'm just trying to convince you to do better because one thing that ACTUALLY keeps a wife from cheating {or wanting to cheat or from even having a one off} is having a loving and intimate marriage. Your wife should feel, at an intimate level, that you cherish her enough to WANT to be strong for her and protect her and hold her accountable, not because she's a piece of property to be owned, but because you love her that much. Such might actually do more to prevent that one-off mistake that might, if she does it, destroy your marriage and family than this notion of "if you love someone set them free" or "that if she finds someone more compatible she's free to go". Nothing makes a woman more vulnerable to an affair than thinking her husband just doesn't care. Not to mention, it's often an OM's first point of manipulation - he'll say "If you were my wife, I'd have you locked up at home and treasure you forever".


I appreciate the spirit and the good intentions in which you write this but perhaps you have not been listening to a word I said. Not wanting to know if she cheats has nothing to do with not caring. it's quite the opposite: it is all about self-preservation *because I am caring too much*. What seems to get lost in translation is the fact that once you tell your spouse, the trust is forever damaged. Sure, you can still recover and have a happy marriage (whatever that may be) but it will be forever changed. 

I would say this to my wife and any WSs who might be reading it, if they felt that they made a terrible one-off mistake but were still 100% committed to their marriages and haven't decided whether to tell their spouse about it or not: if you cheat, then the least you can do is deal with it yourself, don't drag your spouse into this guilt circus. They are not responsible to 'heal' you. You are responsible to healing yourself and think hard before you decide to drag the spouse right down with you, *without them explicitly stating that that was their wish. *
It's obviously only my opinion and not geared towards people who already found a way to successfully reconcile by other means - good on them!. Neither is it geared towards serial cheaters.



Quality said:


> The dark side of blind trust is lack of care. Notice your wife said she didn't want to know because it would hurt her too much. Did you say the same thing to her or did you just agree because it was logical to you?


I agreed with her because it made perfect sense and then said the same thing back to her: that I would also not want to know if she ever had a one-off encounter. I didn't feel 'pressured' to say it back, if that's what you are driving at.



Quality said:


> Lots of husbands fall into this trap of relying on their logic and figuring people that want to cheat will find a way. The errantly think the jealous possessive type guys are the ones that actually get cheated on more {oppositional theory - people do what their told not to do}. This likely prompted you to simply go along with her plan without actually expressing how much you actually would care and be devastated to find out she cheated {which might have actually been the response she was hoping to illicit - Or - she was looking for permission NOT to tell you about what she did the week before --- just thinking it probably really wasn't to hear you say "I'm fine with you keeping secrets too"}.
> 
> I, again, got interrupted many times writing this over several hours and hope it's helpful to you. It's never too late to change your mind and do better or not. It's your life.


She *knows* I would care if I found out she cheated. For the same reason *I* know that she would care a lot if she found out I cheated. *Thats the reason why we would try all humanly possible for it not to happen in the first place.* Failing that, we decided not to tell. It's not about keeping secrets, as much as it is about sparing the other person the unimaginable pain. Don't tell me you can't imagine betrayed spouses who are now in R but wished they never knew their spouse ****ed a guy called Dave once?

You are right about the 'reverse psychology' part of it (if that is what you meant by 'oppositional theory'?): 
you get a small sub-group of cheaters who will do it for the 'kick' of it of being forbidden. Well, if they have no one to tell or no one who wants to find out about it, then it should kill the 'fun' of doing it in the first place.


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## 269370

Quality said:


> I like the way John MacArthur puts it:
> 
> "Men, if you love a woman, you will do everything in your power to maintain her holiness, her virtue, her righteousness, and her purity . . . every day you live. You'll never put her in a compromising situation where she would become angered, because that's a sin. You would never induce an argument out of her, because that's a sin. You would do nothing to defile her. You would never let her see anything or expose her to anything, or *let her indulge in anything that would in any way bring impurity into her life. Love always seeks to purify.*"


Where does the article say that the man should stop playing the controlling daddy and let the woman grow the **** up?


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I will just make one more statement...I have lived it...you are speculating. God *I hope you never have to find out.*


That's exactly what she said about herself.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

inmyprime said:


> If I had a daughter who misbehaved once (say, got arrested for drink driving), I am not going to disown her right away for an *irrational choice*, a stupid mistake that she very much regrets. Though according to you, that's what should be occurring since 'she decided and made a choice to **** up'.


So to continue with your analogy, if your child messed up and got arrested for what you consider an irrational mistake, you would prefer they never tell you? Avoid all consequences (from you) by lying by omission and continue on their merry way?

I don't think that would encourage the feeling of regret or remorse (which are not the same thing). I think it would encourage deceitfulness, avoidance of consequences, and increase the likelihood of doing it again.

And no, you would not automatically disown her, you would evaluate the situation, having ALL the facts, and make a decision. Just as a BS can choose not to divorce a cheater.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

inmyprime said:


> Yep, we pretty much cheat-proofed ourselves. Who could have thought could be so easy and simple?
> 
> Sometimes people get stuck inside their own 'logic' and can't get out of their tunnelled vision. I am not sure there's anything else I can say. (And very possibly that person is me but it works for us).
> 
> We have an understanding that we would do *everything in our human power not to cheat*; we don't want to cheat and don't plan to cheat. Nor has either of us ever cheated in over 20 years of being together. This is enough for me to sleep well at night. However should the unthinkable happen (and given the statistics, it would be foolish to bury your head in the sand and ignore them). I just don't want to know about it. You are extrapolating this as 'giving consent to cheat and be ok with cheating' then that's your extrapolation. It's not our understanding.


You have not cheat-proofed your marriage. You have established a Shroedinger's Cat of marriages. Is it open or is it not? Has she cheated or has she not? She could be having ONS every time she leaves town on a business trip. You just don't know.

To some types of people 'if you do it, don't tell me' is granting permission to cheat. Hopefully your wife is not that type, but so many of us BS on here thought our spouse was not either.


----------



## drifting on

inmyprime said:


> You are right, I have not experienced the tragedy of discovering infidelity. I have experienced few other tragedies though that life happily throws at us and know from experience that in extreme situations like these, one cannot predict with certainty how one would react. We can make a ‘plan’ all we want but of course there is no way of knowing for sure. Hence my honest answer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





I can say this, before infidelity I was cruel towards a wayward that I knew very well. I also had said I would throw that (many expletives) female to the curb. I reacted harshly to friends who cheated, but if I didn’t know then it was different, just business. When it happened to me, I was flooded, overwhelmed, devastated, destroyed, lost, couldn’t speak in full sentences. I never once thought my wife was capable, probably one reason why I married her. I guess I can only call it pure hell, and I did so much wrong. Not that I’m perfect now, but what mrsjohnadams is posting is like she is in my own head!!! Get out!!! Seriously, it’s scary how much I relate to her posts. I didn’t do what I thought I would, I never thought I’d reconcile, yet here I am.....


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## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> So to continue with your analogy, if your child messed up and got arrested for what you consider an irrational mistake, you would prefer they never tell you? Avoid all consequences (from you) by lying by omission and continue on their merry way?


If the child was an adult (like a spouse is), then no, they don't have to tell me. They can face the police for the consequence.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't think that would encourage the feeling of regret or remorse (which are not the same thing). I think it would encourage deceitfulness, avoidance of consequences, and increase the likelihood of doing it again.


I think there is this misconception that confessing to your spouse is the only way to face the consequences. Why is living with the guilt for the rest of your life knowing what you have done not a consequence? Why is your spouse eventually dumping the WS for becoming distant or cold not a consequence? (the latter is likely if the cheating continues)


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## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> You have not cheat-proofed your marriage.


I know, I was being sarcastic. The whole premise (and it probably got buried in this stream of consciousness) is *that it CAN happen to anyone*.
You can't really stop it, you can't (fully) prevent it, you certainly can't cheat-proof the marriage.

So what is left?


----------



## Quality

inmyprime said:


> I know, I was being sarcastic. The whole premise (and it probably got buried in this stream of consciousness) is *that it CAN happen to anyone*.
> You can't really stop it, you can't (fully) prevent it, you certainly can't cheat-proof the marriage.
> 
> So what is left?



First off ----- - thank you for the long detailed response above to my long post earlier today. I disagree with you but appreciate the discussion and just knowing you read it, digested it and thought about it. Doesn't work for you but maybe someone else got something out of our discussion.


On to the above quote. You sure as heck don't have to purposefully, willfully and blindly make it MORE likely to happen. I'm not just talking about her either. You've given each other a hall pass essentially and should the day of great and perfect temptation ever arrive on your doorstep, the little evil human-nature voice in your head is going to be saying "Go ahead - you deserve this - you've been such a loving and devoted husband all these years that it's your turn to do something for yourself and this opportunity is perfect, the wife will NEVER accidentally find out about this one and you don't have to tell her squat. You know, it's highly likely she's already done this once or twice herself so just go for it and take a chance. Imagine passing up this opportunity and finding out 20 years from now she's been doing things your entire marriage. You'll regret letting this one go by - how many perfect chances like this are you gonna get?'. 

I also happen to think you CAN substantially "cheat-proof" a marriage and traditional role models have biblical validity that are just undeniable truth and help reduce risks. Holding each other accountable IS growing the heck up. Mutual accountability. That verse I quoted was just one verse about a role of husbands. I am as respectful as can be towards every woman in my life so I'm not suggesting our job is to lord over them like they are children. What I have come to understand about marriage is that men and women complete each other when they become, biblically speaking, "one flesh". It's a supernatural mystery what happens when you become "one flesh".

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” *This is a profound mystery*—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." Ephesians 5:31-33 (NIV)​[

The way I've heard it best described is to imagine a husband and wife, standing back to back and then melding into one another backwards....each spouse remains facing away from the other yet conjoined entirely. Together, such husband and wife have a 360 degree view of the world around them. Men and woman see the world differently and, by design, together, see it more completely. A world that is full of brokenheartedness, distractions and temptations along with beauty, reason and emotion. TOGETHER they can watch out for each other and keep an eye on all the blindspots they otherwise wouldn't individually be able to see or recognize while sharing out all the beauty and wonder to each other along the way. 

Besides - i've never seen a wayward "heal" themselves. You simply can't address and fix what you won't acknowledge.

I get what you're saying, don't think it's healthy but I wish you well.


----------



## Adelais

Quality said:


> What I have come to understand about marriage is that men and women complete each other when they become, biblically speaking, "one flesh". *It's a supernatural mystery what happens when you become "one flesh".
> 
> “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." Ephesians 5:31-33 (NIV)​[
> 
> The way I've heard it best described is to imagine a husband and wife, standing back to back and then melding into one another backwards....each spouse remains facing away from the other yet conjoined entirely. Together, such husband and wife have a 360 degree view of the world around them. Men and woman see the world differently and, by design, together, see it more completely. A world that is full of brokenheartedness, distractions and temptations along with beauty, reason and emotion. TOGETHER they can watch out for each other and keep an eye on all the blindspots they otherwise wouldn't individually be able to see or recognize while sharing out all the beauty and wonder to each other along the way. *
> 
> Besides - i've never seen a wayward "heal" themselves. You simply can't address and fix what you won't acknowledge.
> 
> I get what you're saying, don't think it's healthy but I wish you well.


Great visual for what it means to become "one flesh" in marriage.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> Yes, and that was my point all along: confession is *all about the cheater*. and IMO, that should not be the *main* consideration. *The Victim* is the main consideration in that equation IMO.
> You started the thread off quite well I thought (with a few simplifications), now you seem to have 'flipped'


The victim is still married to the cheater. If the cheater detaches from guilt lots of times the victim will know something is wrong but not know why. So they are stuck with this spouse who can give full effort because they are stuck in lies. That doesn't make for a good marriage. 

I am for people being authentic. Just because they don't know about it doesn't still mean they aren't married to a cheater. Being married to a cheater whether you know it or not sucks. Being married to an unrepentant one sucks worse. If you are lying about even from omission it everyday you are unrepentant. 

Besides it always comes out, sometimes years later. Then the victim feels like they wasted years. So much worse.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> The victim is still married to the cheater. If the cheater detaches from guilt lots of times the victim will know something is wrong but not know why. So they are stuck with this spouse who can give full effort because they are stuck in lies. That doesn't make for a good marriage.
> 
> I am for people being authentic. Just because they don't know about it doesn't still mean they aren't married to a cheater. Being married to a cheater whether you know it or not sucks. Being married to an unrepentant one sucks worse. If you are lying about even from omission it everyday you are unrepentant.
> 
> Besides it always comes out, sometimes years later. Then the victim feels like they wasted years. So much worse.



Of course it sucks. You know what else sucks? Having mind movies for the next 50 years of what sex with ‘Dave’ was like for my spouse and at what point did my WS give two sh1ts about me while she was enjoying herself.
What I don’t know is not going to torment me for the rest of my days.

Processing infidelity for most BSs is a bit like processing the idea of death: the mind cannot do it. And in fact just as with infidelity, we delude ourselves with stories about life after death etc and how everyone is going to live happily ever after in heaven with their grandmother and a dog named Rex etc.

And while we all have ideals about what a bond between two people should be like, the reality is very different. Many people can’t help themselves; and instead of shuffling the cheaters into one subset of people (the ‘sick/twisted/selfish’ kind, as you did in the beginning of the thread) and detaching ourselves from ‘those’ people (‘because it cannot possibly happen to people who *know* the true meaning of love’), it makes much more sense to acknowledge and accept this trait as part of the human condition.
That’s where my thinking on this is subject is coming from.

The premise that the WS is unrepentant unless she dumps the guilt (‘truth’) onto the BS is just wrong. Sometimes it is correct but with most human beings who have a conscience and are not monsters (and again, my premise is that many cheaters are just normal people who made one terrible mistake that they deeply regret but it’s too late to do anything about it). Everyone has some secrets. Do you lay out your brain to your wife at the end of each day for her to x Ray every thought? To think this way is again idealistic. Quality mentioned ‘melting of flesh’ (presumably from bible, when two become one flesh etc) but it’s very different from ‘melting of minds’ and becoming the dumping ground for your spouses emotional torments.

It’s clear why and how it is beneficial for the WSs to confess. But nobody seems to be addressing the point why they think it is beneficial *for the BS* to know the truth. So they can find a way to forgive their wayward spouse? I will tell you a little secret: they will NEVER forgive as long as they know and remember it. They may put it in the back of their mind (just like a death of a loved one) and not think about it so much continuously (which may give out the impression that they have forgiven) but full and 100% acceptance and forgiveness will NEVER happen. Now that may not be enough of a reason to leave the marriage and plenty of marriages will go on, just like plenty of people will go on living, after an amputation. Call it an amputation of the heart.



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## 269370

Quality said:


> First off ----- - thank you for the long detailed response above to my long post earlier today. I disagree with you but appreciate the discussion and just knowing you read it, digested it and thought about it. Doesn't work for you but maybe someone else got something out of our discussion.
> 
> 
> On to the above quote. You sure as heck don't have to purposefully, willfully and blindly make it MORE likely to happen. I'm not just talking about her either. You've given each other a hall pass essentially and should the day of great and perfect temptation ever arrive on your doorstep, the little evil human-nature voice in your head is going to be saying "Go ahead - you deserve this - you've been such a loving and devoted husband all these years that it's your turn to do something for yourself and this opportunity is perfect, the wife will NEVER accidentally find out about this one and you don't have to tell her squat. You know, it's highly likely she's already done this once or twice herself so just go for it and take a chance. Imagine passing up this opportunity and finding out 20 years from now she's been doing things your entire marriage. You'll regret letting this one go by - how many perfect chances like this are you gonna get?'.


No, I have already covered it with Personal; *not wanting to know does not equal giving the the other person consent (hall pass) to cheat.* I thought you already understood the difference in the previous post? I have had plenty of opportunities to cheat; in my line of work, unfortunately everybody sleeps with everyone (mostly to get to the top; married or not married makes no difference) and I get hit on all the time aggressively (I am at the top of the food chain in my sector). So far I have NEVER been tempted and don't plan to. I don't see the attraction (literally) - I enjoy sex with wife (too much). So I wouldn't do it for the sex. The day I become interested in somebody else, will be the day our marriage will have died. So I would dissolve the marriage and still won't need to tell my wife whether I have or going to sleep with that person. However writing this makes me realise that I am subconsciously removing myself from the 'statistical averages' and that is of course silly. If something ever _invades_ my brain (which is how I view cheating in general: as a semi-involuntary act that is not always possible to have full control over, *otherwise so many people wouldn't be doing it all the time!*) and I deeply regretted it and was still 100% committed to marriage, no, I would never ever lay that kind of hurt onto my spouse. I view the confessing as an extremely selfish and self-centred act (only exceeded by the cheating itself).



Quality said:


> I also happen to think you CAN substantially "cheat-proof" a marriage and traditional role models have biblical validity that are just undeniable truth and help reduce risks. Holding each other accountable IS growing the heck up. Mutual accountability. That verse I quoted was just one verse about a role of husbands. I am as respectful as can be towards every woman in my life so I'm not suggesting our job is to lord over them like they are children. What I have come to understand about marriage is that men and women complete each other when they become, biblically speaking, "one flesh". It's a supernatural mystery what happens when you become "one flesh".
> 
> “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” *This is a profound mystery*—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." Ephesians 5:31-33 (NIV)​[
> 
> The way I've heard it best described is to imagine a husband and wife, standing back to back and then melding into one another backwards....each spouse remains facing away from the other yet conjoined entirely. Together, such husband and wife have a 360 degree view of the world around them. Men and woman see the world differently and, by design, together, see it more completely. A world that is full of brokenheartedness, distractions and temptations along with beauty, reason and emotion. TOGETHER they can watch out for each other and keep an eye on all the blindspots they otherwise wouldn't individually be able to see or recognize while sharing out all the beauty and wonder to each other along the way.


Yes, ideally. That's a very nice analogy unfortunately however in many marriages the two people get welded faces together by mistake, not seeing anything at all...
I don't see though how this analogy has anything to do with what we are discussing: by knowing, the BS will have had his eyeballs completely removed and won't be able to see anything apart from the hurt. For quite some time and may be forever.
Or do you mean that by not facing inwards, into each other, having to sort out all the crap that goes on in the other spouse's life, the couple instead should be facing outwards, focusing on the big picture of the marriage and the world around them? In which case your analogy perfectly supports my view point.



Quality said:


> Besides - i've never seen a wayward "heal" themselves. You simply can't address and fix what you won't acknowledge.
> 
> I get what you're saying, don't think it's healthy but I wish you well.


Life is not healthy (it results in death..). Again you are basing your argument on the false premise that in order to be able to *acknowledge* the extent of the betrayal, the spouse *has to* confess. Nope, not always true. Especially for someone with a resemblance of a brain and an emotional maturity of an adult and not a teenager. (That part probably derives from the Christian tradition of confession/absolving of sins. I did always have a problem with this part although I think some other parts are great).
Acknowledgement (eventually leading to remorse) *has to come from within*, and not from external sources (betrayed spouse). Welcome to adulthood of being a self-contained individual, responsible for their own choices.

Let me put it this way: a spouse having an ONS is a spouse problem (provided that spouse is still 100% committed), it's not the *couple's* problem or the* other *spouse's problem. Unless the spouse confesses, it will stay this way. If the spouse is not able to deal with it, it will become the couple's problem. It doesn't however automatically follow that the cheating spouse won't be able to deal with it. Nor does a marriage and all the 'melding' imply that only the husband is qualified to fix his wife's sh1t for her (by 'forgiving' her, if he chooses to go down that route). I think many people are having trouble and are stuck in a cognitive dissonance between the IDEAL of what they think a marriage *should* be like ('melding' and 'becoming one') and what reality *actually* is like (everyone is a self contained individual, even if also part of a whole, but sometimes acting on impulse irrationally).


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## personofinterest

This boils down to conscience and character. If you can betray your spouse and break your vows and the most basic level, sweep it away, and continue to live with them knowing they are in the dark day after day.....

Have at it, I guess.

I'm just not in with the idea of seeing deception as selfless.


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## ConanHub

drifting on said:


> @ConanHub, hope you had fun at the game!!!


Sure did! Sent you a message about it.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> This boils down to conscience and character. If you can betray your spouse and break your vows and the most basic level, sweep it away, and continue to live with them knowing they are in the dark day after day.....
> 
> Have at it, I guess.
> 
> I'm just not in with the idea of seeing deception as selfless.




In my mind, it’s not an ‘either or’ question (both are bad!) but a question of which is the worse of two evils from the BSs perspective.
Does the need for the WS to confess and ‘come clean’ supersede the world of hurt the BS is about to experience? 

Without knowing what the BS wants, as a WS you are making the assumption that the former need is more important by deciding to confess. ‘Truth’ may not have the same value to the BS (compared with the WS) if the pain of knowing and living with is going be too great for them to deal with.
It’s ideology vs reality.


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## personofinterest

Prime, I apologize for belaboring the point. It's obvious this is a sensitive subject for you, since you felt the need to try to use a womans sexual assault to "guilt me." I'll stop triggering you now.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Prime, I apologize for belaboring the point. It's obvious this is a sensitive subject for you, since you felt the need to try to use a womans sexual assault to "guilt me." I'll stop triggering you now.




No, not triggered at all. I didn’t mean to 'guilt' you but I honestly don’t see the difference. I think people are way too harsh on the other thread. A BS and an SA victim are both victims of abuse and the logic for promoting one approach so fervently over the other eludes me.


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## Hopeful Cynic

I guess for me it just boils down not being comfortable with one spouse doing something behind the other's back. Secrets erode trust, and without trust there is no marriage.

Imagine other types of big secrets. 

What if one spouse had a child from before they ever met their spouse, that they never mentioned to their partner? Even if they never send money, or visit them, it's a huge lie by omission. Does it hurt the marriage?

What if one spouse got a good raise and didn't mention it to their spouse, using the extra money instead on selfish pursuits? Is the marriage harmed?

What if one spouse found out they had a terminal disease, and didn't mention it to their partner? Just keeled over dead one day. Sure they saved their spouse the anguish in the lead-up to dying, but at what ultimate cost?

If someone is untrustworthy, does it make a difference if their partner hasn't found out yet? The marriage still has an untrustworthy person in it.


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## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> It’s clear why and how it is beneficial for the WSs to confess. But nobody seems to be addressing the point why they think it is beneficial *for the BS* to know the truth. So they can find a way to forgive their wayward spouse? I will tell you a little secret: they will NEVER forgive as long as they know and remember it. They may put it in the back of their mind (just like a death of a loved one) and not think about it so much continuously (which may give out the impression that they have forgiven) but full and 100% acceptance and forgiveness will NEVER happen. Now that may not be enough of a reason to leave the marriage and plenty of marriages will go on, just like plenty of people will go on living, after an amputation. Call it an amputation of the heart.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will try again...it has been addressed...you are NOT LISTENING

The betrayed deserves the right to choose whether to stay in a relationship with his betrayer or to leave that relationship. So disclosure is THEIR RIGHT. If they have the mindset you have and they tell their spouse don't ever tell me if you cheat...I do not want to know.....then that too is their right. But I am telling you...those here who have been betrayed have all said they would want to know. 

Forgiveness is absolutely possible and DOES happen. No..they don't forget...by they certainly can forgive. That's where the remorse part comes in...if the betrayed believes that the wayward understands the pain they have caused...then perhaps the wayward is worth a second chance...and healing for both of them can happen.

Infidelity is indeed just like a death. You never get over it...you learn to live with it. So yes...you HAVE to accept what has happened...and YES forgiveness can happen.

you have not experienced infidelity...so you are spewing your opinion about it without knowing the reality of it. Just because you state your opinion...does not mean it is reality. You imagine that people cannot accept...you imagine that people cannot forgive. Here's the REALITY...they CAN and DO. They don't forget....but they certainly can forgive.

I am forgiven.....I KNOW i am forgiven. I don't doubt it one bit.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I will try again...it has been addressed...you are NOT LISTENING
> 
> The betrayed deserves the right to choose whether to stay in a relationship with his betrayer or to leave that relationship. So disclosure is THEIR RIGHT. If they have the mindset you have and they tell their spouse don't ever tell me if you cheat...I do not want to know.....*then that too is their right.* But I am telling you...those here who have been betrayed have all said they would want to know.


Yes it is their right both to know and not to know - *they have the right to choose*. By not establishing beforehand what their preference is, you take away this right and decide yourself what is best for them (again: DNR is the equivalent. 'But they have the right to live!' No they don't: not if they decide they don't want to be resuscitated).
It's not up to the WS to make that decision. Just as it is not up to you to overrule the DNR decision.

There is pretty much no argument here.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Infidelity is indeed just like a death. *You never get over it...*you learn to live with it. So yes...you HAVE to accept what has happened...and YES forgiveness can happen.


Here you said it: you never get over it. Perhaps we have different understanding of what 'forgiveness' means. What you are describing to me seems more like 'coming to terms with it' than forgiveness.

But alone the understanding that the partner may 'never get over it' would make me think long and hard whether the best course of action is to burden the spouse with a confession before establishing that that is really what they would want in such a scenario.

Either way, I am glad you feel he has forgiven you. When I talk about this issue, I don't refer to your case specifically, so don't take it personally. Even if I haven't experienced infidelity, does not disqualify me from being able to have an opinion about it.


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## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> Here you said it: you never get over it. Perhaps we have different understanding of what 'forgiveness' means. What you are describing to me seems more like 'coming to terms with it' than forgiveness.
> 
> But alone the understanding that the partner may 'never get over it' would make me think long and hard whether the best course of action is to burden the spouse with a confession before establishing that that is really what they would want in such a scenario.
> 
> Either way, I am glad you feel he has forgiven you. When I talk about this issue, I don't refer to your case specifically, so don't take it personally. Even if I haven't experienced infidelity, does not disqualify me from being able to have an opinion about it.


Forgiving does not mean or equal forgetting. *to stop feeling anger toward (someone who has done something wrong) : to stop blaming (someone) : to stop feeling anger about (something) : to forgive someone for (something wrong) : to stop requiring payment of (money that is owed)*

Do you see anything about FORGETTING in this definition of forgiveness?

Everyone has an opinion...but not everyone is right.

I don't THINK he has forgiven me. I KNOW he has.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Forgiving does not mean or equal forgetting. *to stop feeling anger toward (someone who has done something wrong) : to stop blaming (someone) : to stop feeling anger about (something) : to forgive someone for (something wrong) : to stop requiring payment of (money that is owed)*
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see anything about FORGETTING in this definition of forgiveness?
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has an opinion...but not everyone is right.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't THINK he has forgiven me. I KNOW he has.



I never said a word about ‘forgetting’. 
I am not going to harp about how you can ‘know’ that he doesn’t feel an emotion (such as anger or despair) when he thinks back about this incident. I don’t think this will be productive at this point. I just want to caution (fwiw) that one has to be extremely careful when one starts presuming to ‘know’ what the other person is thinking or (especially) feeling. 


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## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> I never said a word about ‘forgetting’.
> I am not going to harp about how you can ‘know’ that he doesn’t feel an emotion (such as anger or despair) when he thinks back about this incident. I don’t think this will be productive at this point. I just want to caution (fwiw) that one has to be extremely careful when one starts presuming to ‘know’ what the other person is thinking or (especially) feeling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I KNOW...he has forgiven me. Does he ever feel sadness about what i did? of course he does. Is he angry with me? no...not anymore. His anger has subsided because he has forgiven me. Does he ever trigger because of a memory...yes. Do I trigger? yes Do I ever get angry? no 

I told you it is like a death....you learn to live with it but you don't get over it. I am not mad at the loved ones in my family that have died. But I am saddened because i miss them. John is saddened by what i did because i lost the innocence of our lives together. We can never get that back. 

You need not caution me....like i already told you...i have lived this and walked in this for 35 years. You on the other hand have never experienced it so while you may have an opinion about it....you really do not know.

If you knew us...you would never imagine that infidelity had happened to us.

We got an anniversary card from our daughter the other day...and it said 

Children seldom understand the trials their parents face, the dreams deferred, or sacrifices made until one day when they are grown with grown -up choices, too and realize the debt they can't repay.
Only you two know all that's gone into your marriage or how many challenges you've faced.
But I know how much I love you for all that you've done to stay together.
It couldn't have been easy to keep your patience, your sense of humor, but you always pulled through.
And in the process, you taught me a lot about the power of commitment, the importance of family, and how to get by in a less-than-perfect world.

I am very proud of you for that.

EXACTLY


----------



## Quality

inmyprime said:


> I never said a word about ‘forgetting’.
> I am not going to harp about how you can ‘know’ that he doesn’t feel an emotion (such as anger or despair) when he thinks back about this incident. I don’t think this will be productive at this point. I just want to caution (fwiw) that one has to be extremely careful when one starts presuming to ‘know’ what the other person is thinking or (especially) feeling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's pretty easy to do when you're actually "one flesh" :wink2:


I DO understand your position and don't think your agreement is a "hall pass" before the fact, as in you aren't really giving each other permission to cheat. I just know how this little agreement will be twisted around, as it was earlier this thread, AFTER THE FACT {after any cheating starts} as a rationalization and justification for cheating on each other {and more specifically, how your wife, should she EVER become wayward, would use it to tell herself you don't really truly cherish her}.

More often than not, it's all the little lies that add up to justification and permission to keep the bigger lies from one another. Giving permission for big-lies upfront just seems to me to be an intimacy killer. I like how a poster put it earlier, why tell the truth at all about anything? When truth is boiled down to feelings, truth becomes completely relative. It sounds more like a good roommate relationship of convenience versus the full meaning of "marriage".

It's cool. To each his own. I hope you never live to regret it and thank you again for the civil discourse.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I KNOW...he has forgiven me. Does he ever feel sadness about what i did? of course he does. Is he angry with me? no...not anymore. His anger has subsided because he has forgiven me. Does he ever trigger because of a memory...yes. Do I trigger? yes Do I ever get angry? no
> 
> I told you it is like a death....you learn to live with it but you don't get over it. I am not mad at the loved ones in my family that have died. But I am saddened because i miss them. John is saddened by what i did because i lost the innocence of our lives together. We can never get that back.
> 
> You need not caution me....like i already told you...i have lived this and walked in this for 35 years. You on the other hand have never experienced it so while you may have an opinion about it....you really do not know.
> 
> If you knew us...you would never imagine that infidelity had happened to us.
> 
> We got an anniversary card from our daughter the other day...and it said
> 
> Children seldom understand the trials their parents face, the dreams deferred, or sacrifices made until one day when they are grown with grown -up choices, too and realize the debt they can't repay.
> Only you two know all that's gone into your marriage or how many challenges you've faced.
> But I know how much I love you for all that you've done to stay together.
> It couldn't have been easy to keep your patience, your sense of humor, but you always pulled through.
> And in the process, you taught me a lot about the power of commitment, the importance of family, and how to get by in a less-than-perfect world.
> 
> I am very proud of you for that.
> 
> EXACTLY


Wot?? Your children know about the cheating too?? :redcard:
Is there anyone in your life you _haven't_ told about it yet?  :wink2:

Very nice card. Your kids are smart. They must take after their father, I gather?


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## 269370

Quality said:


> It's pretty easy to do when you're actually "one flesh" :wink2:
> 
> 
> I DO understand your position and don't think your agreement is a "hall pass" before the fact, as in you aren't really giving each other permission to cheat. I just know how this little agreement will be twisted around, as it was earlier this thread, AFTER THE FACT {after any cheating starts} as a rationalization and justification for cheating on each other {and more specifically, how your wife, should she EVER become wayward, would use it to tell herself you don't really truly cherish her}.
> 
> More often than not, it's all the little lies that add up to justification and permission to keep the bigger lies from one another. Giving permission for big-lies upfront just seems to me to be an intimacy killer. I like how a poster put it earlier, why tell the truth at all about anything? When truth is boiled down to feelings, truth becomes completely relative. It sounds more like a good roommate relationship of convenience versus the full meaning of "marriage".
> 
> It's cool. To each his own. I hope you never live to regret it and thank you again for the civil discourse.


You don't need to thank me every time we have an exchange :wink2:
(Are people very rough on you around these parts or something?)

I am not sure you still understand, given that you write: "Giving permission for big-lies upfront". It's just *not wanting to know*. :banghead: Not 'giving permission for anything'. It's not designed to make any loopholes in it; it's not going to show my wife how I don't 'cherish' her. It's about 'the victim'; if she truly cherishes ME, then she will do the honourable thing and not ruin my whole life by dumping her guilt on me, just so she can feel better about herself.

We care about each other too much. We love each other too much. The hurt would be too unbearable. We decided on the one thing that we know for sure we _can_ control: *what comes out of our mouths.* (Well, I can't really control it, given how much drivel I have written here).

I have no idea how you jump from that to a 'roommate relationship agreement of convenience' but never mind. I think I have written too much about it and people are bored to death.

All life is a mirage, a mass delusion on a grand scale. What's one more delusion. I will take the blue pill every time, if Morpheus offered me the choice. *I don't want to know.*


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## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> Wot?? Your children know about the cheating too?? :redcard:
> Is there anyone in your life you _haven't_ told about it yet?  :wink2:
> 
> Very nice card. Your kids are smart. They must take after their father, I gather?


no my children are not cheating. My children are happily married.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> no my children are not cheating. My children are happily married.


I meant, if your children ALSO know about YOUR cheating.
(Is my English that bad?)


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## Hopeful Cynic

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ...
> 
> The betrayed deserves the right to choose whether to stay in a relationship with his betrayer or to leave that relationship. So disclosure is THEIR RIGHT. If they have the mindset you have and they tell their spouse don't ever tell me if you cheat...I do not want to know.....then that too is their right. But I am telling you...those here who have been betrayed have all said they would want to know.
> 
> ...


Well, in this case it appears he has waived that right, in advance, without concern for circumstances. Which, I suppose, is also his right.

I don't feel I could do the same, and I'm apparently in the majority, but evidently he does.

Sort of like "sure, you can embezzle money from the books, just make sure you hide it extremely well."

Isn't it interesting how different perspectives come together on here? That's what I like best about TAM, the chance to see things from another perspective, even if I personally find it baffling.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> I meant, if your children ALSO know about YOUR cheating.
> (Is my English that bad?)


When I had my affair...My children were very small. We never separated. They had no idea that anything had happened.

My mother knows everything because i went to her first. Then I told John. John depended on my mother for support a lot during the first few months. She was a great help to him. 

A situation arose that i felt i needed to tell my daughter some limited amount of information. I told her that information when she was 18. That was a long time ago. We have not discussed it since. 

Some people of course will argue that we should have told the world..John should have disclosed to all of our family and friends....but he chose to keep it private....especially since we were trying to reconcile. John thought the fewer people that knew the easier it would be for us to move forward. He was right.

This does not need to be discussed further.


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## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Sort of like "sure, you can embezzle money from the books, just make sure you hide it extremely well."


Not really. It's more like she embezzles the money from the books without my knowledge, then realises she made a terrible mistake and works her ass off for the rest of her 'employment' to square the books and much more. At the end of the day, I will be none the wiser and the company will have made a net profit.

The other option would be: she embezzles the money, feels bad about it and confesses her mistake. I will have duty to report it to the CEO, she gets fired, the money is still not there, the company struggles and after a painful period eventually goes bust or gets taken over, by another company with a larger...cashflow (no, i wasn't gonna say cockflow)


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## Hopeful Cynic

inmyprime said:


> Not really. It's more like she embezzles the money from the books without my knowledge, then realises she made a terrible mistake and works her ass off for the rest of her 'employment' to square the books and much more. At the end of the day, I will be none the wiser and the company will have made a net profit.
> 
> The other option would be: she embezzles the money, feels bad about it and confesses her mistake. I will have duty to report it to the CEO, she gets fired, the money is still not there, the company struggles and after a painful period eventually goes bust or gets taken over, by another company with a larger...cashflow (no, i wasn't gonna say cockflow)


Maybe I picked a bad analogy. An embezzler could have a change of heart and replace the money, so that there is no financial damage. A cheater can never be un****ed.

But the main point still stands. If you tell someone, IN ADVANCE, that they can do something unwanted and still get away scott-free, they are more likely to do the thing, and do it repeatedly.


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## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Maybe I picked a bad analogy. An embezzler could have a change of heart and replace the money, so that there is no financial damage. A cheater can never be un****ed.


Precisely. But that is only relevant if the partner *has knowledge* they have been ****ed in the first place.
Don't underestimate the power of SI! (Strategic Ignorance).


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## 269370

Hopeful Cynic said:


> But the main point still stands. If you tell someone, IN ADVANCE, that they can do something unwanted and still get away scott-free, they are more likely to do the thing, and do it repeatedly.


Why do you assume this? 

First of all, there is no evidence that this would be the case (in this context, where two people still love each other).
It's the difference between a controlling parent and one that relies on the child having grown up with a healthy conscience: they give the grown child the freedom to do the 'right thing', in good faith, while at the same time protecting themselves from having their own lives ruined.

Secondly, like I said many times before: explicitly 'disallowing' the partner to cheat will do *nothing* to stop it from happening. Do you think any cheater cares or thinks about the consequence *once*, while caught up in the moment?


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> Of course it sucks. You know what else sucks? Having mind movies for the next 50 years of what sex with ‘Dave’ was like for my spouse and at what point did my WS give two sh1ts about me while she was enjoying herself.
> What I don’t know is not going to torment me for the rest of my days.
> 
> Processing infidelity for most BSs is a bit like processing the idea of death: the mind cannot do it. And in fact just as with infidelity, we delude ourselves with stories about life after death etc and how everyone is going to live happily ever after in heaven with their grandmother and a dog named Rex etc.
> 
> And while we all have ideals about what a bond between two people should be like, the reality is very different. Many people can’t help themselves; and instead of shuffling the cheaters into one subset of people (the ‘sick/twisted/selfish’ kind, as you did in the beginning of the thread) and detaching ourselves from ‘those’ people (‘because it cannot possibly happen to people who *know* the true meaning of love’), it makes much more sense to acknowledge and accept this trait as part of the human condition.
> That’s where my thinking on this is subject is coming from.
> 
> The premise that the WS is unrepentant unless she dumps the guilt (‘truth’) onto the BS is just wrong. Sometimes it is correct but with most human beings who have a conscience and are not monsters (and again, my premise is that many cheaters are just normal people who made one terrible mistake that they deeply regret but it’s too late to do anything about it). Everyone has some secrets. Do you lay out your brain to your wife at the end of each day for her to x Ray every thought? To think this way is again idealistic. Quality mentioned ‘melting of flesh’ (presumably from bible, when two become one flesh etc) but it’s very different from ‘melting of minds’ and becoming the dumping ground for your spouses emotional torments.
> 
> It’s clear why and how it is beneficial for the WSs to confess. But nobody seems to be addressing the point why they think it is beneficial *for the BS* to know the truth. So they can find a way to forgive their wayward spouse? I will tell you a little secret: they will NEVER forgive as long as they know and remember it. They may put it in the back of their mind (just like a death of a loved one) and not think about it so much continuously (which may give out the impression that they have forgiven) but full and 100% acceptance and forgiveness will NEVER happen. Now that may not be enough of a reason to leave the marriage and plenty of marriages will go on, just like plenty of people will go on living, after an amputation. Call it an amputation of the heart.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't have mind movies when you move on. It's not like you can't do better at that point. This whole discussion is why WS suck, no honor. If it was me I would want to know. I would never want to be married to such a phony. 

You guys always act like the WS is irreplaceable. They're not. "I can't tell because then they would lose the gift of being married to someone as great a me!" Let me break it to you, if you cheat at that point your not such a gift, your just a run of the mill cheater. Your marriage is pretty crappy too. There is a lot of better choices out there, all things being equal if you could eliminate the hardship of separation very few would stay. Better to find out so you can decide if "the gift" is worth keeping.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> You don't have mind movies when you move on. It's not like you can't do better at that point. This whole discussion is why WS suck, no honor. If it was me I would want to know. I would never want to be married to such a phony.
> 
> You guys always act like the WS is irreplaceable. They're not. "I can't tell because then they would lose the gift of being married to someone as great a me!" Let me break it to you, if you cheat at that point your not such a gift, your just a run of the mill cheater. Your marriage is pretty crappy too. There is a lot of better choices out there, all things being equal if you could eliminate the hardship of separation very few would stay. Better to find out so you can decide if "the gift" is worth keeping.




Of course, a WS is totally replaceable! 
But my wife isn’t...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Personal

inmyprime said:


> Yet the same tactic has not really done much for Personal's ex-wife who also fessed up but was dumped.


It did plenty for her. 

Like gave her the opportunity to have a 2nd marital relationship, that has afforded her reconciliation instead of being dumped. When she made more mistakes of the kind that you wouldn't want to know about.


----------



## drifting on

inmyprime said:


> Of course, a WS is totally replaceable!
> But my wife isn’t...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






It wasn’t until I knew, no matter what, divorce or reconciliation, that I would be ok with or without her. I remember we were discussing at one point how much we loved each other. I had told her that I loved her very much, that she holds my heart, but also if she weren’t there I could be ok. My wife was somewhat hurt by that comment, but the truth is, I love her enough to let her go. I love myself enough that I know to take care of myself first. If I do this, then my wife has all the love I can give. This is why any spouse, wayward or not, is replaceable. Now, am I going to be hurt, yes, will I have many emotions and feelings towards it, more then I could list here. The point is, you have to love yourself and understand you will be ok with or without your spouse.


----------



## hoblob

Personal said:


> It did plenty for her.
> 
> Like gave her the opportunity to have a 2nd marital relationship, that has afforded her reconciliation instead of being dumped. When she made more mistakes of the kind that you wouldn't want to know about.


She cheated again? Dodged a bullet there


----------



## GusPolinski

inmyprime said:


> For me, this would have been the exact opposite. I don't think confessing is the 'courageous' or 'brave' thing to do; it would be transferring my guilt onto my partner: "here you go, you decide what you want to do with this".
> 
> And the thing is, it is SO easy to put the ball in the other person's court simply by asking: 'would you want me to tell you if I ever cheated on you?'. This question can be asked at ANY point in the relationship, whether one has cheated already or not. I would not want to pretend to know what my partner would want or what would be the best for them, *on their behalf* by simply going ahead and telling them.
> 
> If my wife told me that she would *not* forgive me for cheating then the only reason for telling her that I have cheated, would be to ensure that she breaks up with me. In fact I would probably still not tell her and just break up myself. If i did tell her, her response would be: "You knew perfectly well that I would not forgive you yet you still come here and tell me. You are now leaving me no choice but to break up with you because anything else, would be more than humiliation".
> 
> In my experience, therapists often don't know WTF they are talking about. They are not supposed to advise which course of action one should take (at least not over here). It's up to the person to decide what's right for them and the therapist usually nods along.


Blah blah blah blah blah.

More trivialization, minimization, and moral escapism. 

Confessing is the right thing to do.

Period.

Having cheated, you’ve committed a transgression against your marriage — specifically, _the_ single transgression over which many rightfully choose to end their marriages — and your spouse deserves to know that so that he or she can make an informed decision regarding the future of your relationship.

Everything else is just noise.


----------



## 269370

You guys are so quick to judge what the ‘best’ course of action is for others who have been betrayed (‘leaving the WS is the only way’, ‘confession is the only way’ etc) but when it comes to it, there won’t be as many of you who will actually follow through on what you preach. I think that’s what MJA referred to when she said ‘you won’t know until it happened to you’ and I 100% agree with her (for some reason, she applied this to me but never mind).

And she is right: look at her husband’s change of mind and many others who stayed to reconcile to try again. What you don’t seem to be getting is that I’m not talking in general that confession is detrimental course of action, I have been talking all along about one specific scenario only.

The scenario is where the spouse experiences one single digression over her life time and then regrets it deeply. Never does it again and is devoted to her husband and marriage for the rest of her days. Now those scenarios don’t come along all that often (often enough though because of human nature) but when they do, the difference is only between the husband knowing and not knowing about it: that is the only variable I’m addressing. And that’s the only scenario I discussed with my wife when we decided on not wanting to know about it in the unlikely event if it happened to one of us.

Given this scenario, you assume (IMO mistakenly) that it’s the confession that saves the rest of the marriage. I don’t think that it does. I believe all the confession does is it transfers WS’s guilt, torments and whatever other negative emotion associated with the incident onto the husband with which the husband then needs to live for the rest of his life with. The WS realised the full extent of what she did long before the confession actually takes place, not during the confession. Or do you think seeing the husband cry suddenly makes her sit up and think? ‘Ooops, I didn’t think he would react like this, now I know what a terrible thing I have done’. That’s nonsense.

A spouse who made the decision to never repeat that mistake is clearly not a typical WS that is often discussed on CWI (which are serial cheaters, cake eaters, petrol lighters, trickle truthers etc etc). MJA is not like this and all the WSs that are posting on TAM regularly (and reconciled with their husbands) all belong in that category, more or less. So there are still plenty of them for this discussion to be of relevance.

The arguments get conflated and confused because different people are discussing different things and using different assumptions for different scenarios. I have ever talked about the one scenario only. And only one issue within that scenario: that it’s better to establish beforehand whether it is in the husband’s interest to know.

I don’t advocate secrets, I don’t advocate dishonesty, I don’t advocate rug sweeping or anything else. All I advocated was to think carefully what is best for the BS in those circumstances.

Ask yourselves one question: who benefits the most during the confession (in this particular scenario), the BS or WS?
That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GusPolinski

inmyprime said:


> You guys are so quick to judge what the ‘best’ course of action is for others who have been betrayed (‘leaving the WS is the only way’, ‘confession is the only way’ etc) but when it comes to it, there won’t be as many of you who will actually follow through on what you preach. I think that’s what MJA referred to when she said ‘you won’t know until it happened to you’ and I 100% agree with her (for some reason, she applied this to me but never mind).
> 
> And she is right: look at her husband’s change of mind and many others who stayed to reconcile to try again. What you don’t seem to be getting is that I’m not talking in general that confession is detrimental course of action, I have been talking all along about one specific scenario only.
> 
> The scenario is where the spouse experiences one single digression over her life time and then regrets it deeply. Never does it again and is devoted to her husband and marriage for the rest of her days. Now those scenarios don’t come along all that often (often enough though because of human nature) but when they do, the difference is only between the husband knowing and not knowing about it: that is the only variable I’m addressing. And that’s the only scenario I discussed with my wife when we decided on not wanting to know about it in the unlikely event if it happened to one of us.
> 
> Given this scenario, you assume (IMO mistakenly) that it’s the confession that saves the rest of the marriage. I don’t think that it does. I believe all the confession does is it transfers WS’s guilt, torments and whatever other negative emotion associated with the incident onto the husband with which the husband then needs to live for the rest of his life with. The WS realised the full extent of what she did long before the confession actually takes place, not during the confession. Or do you think seeing the husband cry suddenly makes her sit up and think? ‘Ooops, I didn’t think he would react like this, now I know what a terrible thing I have done’. That’s nonsense.
> 
> A spouse who made the decision to never repeat that mistake is clearly not a typical WS that is often discussed on CWI (which are serial cheaters, cake eaters, petrol lighters, trickle truthers etc etc). MJA is not like this and all the WSs that are posting on TAM regularly (and reconciled with their husbands) all belong in that category, more or less. So there are still plenty of them for this discussion to be of relevance.
> 
> The arguments get conflated and confused because different people are discussing different things and using different assumptions for different scenarios. I have ever talked about the one scenario only. And only one issue within that scenario: that it’s better to establish beforehand whether it is in the husband’s interest to know.
> 
> I don’t advocate secrets, I don’t advocate dishonesty, I don’t advocate rug sweeping or anything else. All I advocated was to think carefully what is best for the BS in those circumstances.
> 
> Ask yourselves one question: who benefits the most during the confession (in this particular scenario), the BS or WS?
> That’s all.


Blah blah blah.

This isn’t about judging — it’s about knowing.

Nothing is more important than the truth.


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## 269370

GusPolinski said:


> Blah blah blah.
> 
> This isn’t about judging — it’s about knowing.
> 
> Nothing is more important than the truth.


Tell this to the thousands of people who commit suicide every year because of this wonderful truth. This is such a narrow-minded statement. 

There are *many* (contemporary) marriage counsellors and psychologists who are pretty much all in agreement about this:

_TIME: Should you confess if you feel guilty about it?

No. I've got to tell you that this is very, very important. I'm a person who is just an advocate of truth. I really will do anything to tell the truth, so it took me a long time to get to the point where I say, just don't tell. Because how does it make a person less guilty to inflict terrible pain on someone? Which is exactly what the confession does. It puts the other person in a permanent state of hurt and grief and loss of trust and an inability to feel safe, and it doesn't alleviate your guilt. Your relationship is dealt a potentially devastating blow. Honesty is great, but it's an abstract moral principle.... *The higher moral principle, I believe, is not hurting people.* And when you confess to having an affair, you are hurting someone more than you can ever imagine. So I tell people, if you care that much about honesty, figure out who you want to be with, commit to that relationship and devote the rest of your life to making it the most honest relationship you can. But confessing your affair is the kind of honesty that is unnecessarily destructive. There are two huge exceptions to not telling: if you're having an affair and you haven't practiced safe sex, even if it's only one time, you have to tell. Again, the moral principle is minimizing the hurt. But this time, the greatest risk of hurt comes from inflicting a sexually transmitted disease, and I've never seen a relationship recover from that. You also have to tell if discovery is imminent or likely. If you're going to be found out, then it's better for you to be the one to make the confession first.

Before I did this research, I really thought that affairs were fatal for relationships, but they're not. It all depends on how you deal with it, and that's why I have two sections in the book on how to repair and rebuild and heal the hurts. You need all of that. But if the person who has been cheated on has a talent for forgiveness and the cheater is truly sorry — this is one of the surprising findings — many, many people are able to use the affair as a wake-up call and end up so much happier with a relationship that gives them what they need, instead of just being on automatic and pretending that everything's O.K._

Why We Have Affairs — And Why Not to Tell - TIME


----------



## GusPolinski

inmyprime said:


> Tell this to the thousands of people who commit suicide every year because of this wonderful truth. This is such a narrow-minded statement.
> 
> There are *many* (contemporary) marriage counsellors and psychologists who are pretty much all in agreement about this:
> 
> _TIME: Should you confess if you feel guilty about it?
> 
> No. I've got to tell you that this is very, very important. I'm a person who is just an advocate of truth. I really will do anything to tell the truth, so it took me a long time to get to the point where I say, just don't tell. Because how does it make a person less guilty to inflict terrible pain on someone? Which is exactly what the confession does. It puts the other person in a permanent state of hurt and grief and loss of trust and an inability to feel safe, and it doesn't alleviate your guilt. Your relationship is dealt a potentially devastating blow. Honesty is great, but it's an abstract moral principle.... *The higher moral principle, I believe, is not hurting people.* And when you confess to having an affair, you are hurting someone more than you can ever imagine. So I tell people, if you care that much about honesty, figure out who you want to be with, commit to that relationship and devote the rest of your life to making it the most honest relationship you can. But confessing your affair is the kind of honesty that is unnecessarily destructive. There are two huge exceptions to not telling: if you're having an affair and you haven't practiced safe sex, even if it's only one time, you have to tell. Again, the moral principle is minimizing the hurt. But this time, the greatest risk of hurt comes from inflicting a sexually transmitted disease, and I've never seen a relationship recover from that. You also have to tell if discovery is imminent or likely. If you're going to be found out, then it's better for you to be the one to make the confession first.
> 
> Before I did this research, I really thought that affairs were fatal for relationships, but they're not. It all depends on how you deal with it, and that's why I have two sections in the book on how to repair and rebuild and heal the hurts. You need all of that. But if the person who has been cheated on has a talent for forgiveness and the cheater is truly sorry — this is one of the surprising findings — many, many people are able to use the affair as a wake-up call and end up so much happier with a relationship that gives them what they need, instead of just being on automatic and pretending that everything's O.K._
> 
> Why We Have Affairs — And Why Not to Tell - TIME


Nothing is more important than the truth.


----------



## 269370

GusPolinski said:


> Nothing is more important than the truth.


And if the person doesn't want to hear this truth, are you still going to force it down their throats, ignoring their wish AND their well-being?


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## GusPolinski

inmyprime said:


> And if the person doesn't want to hear this truth, are you still going to force it down their throats, ignoring their wish AND their well-being?


What does that dance look like?

“Sweetie, if I’d ever cheated on you, would you want to know?”

“Why? Have you cheated on me?”

“Answer the question first.”


----------



## 269370

GusPolinski said:


> What does that dance look like?
> 
> “Sweetie, if I’d ever cheated on you, would you want to know?”
> 
> “Why? Have you cheated on me?”
> 
> “Answer the question first.”


It's very simple. The same way couples talk about what their ideas are about marriages without being married. What their ideas are about sex life without having had sex yet. When people discuss wills without having died etc etc.
You can talk in general terms without assuming that this has already happened.

We had this conversation. Neither of us think the other person has cheated. "Ah but how do you know?" The same way you can never be 100% sure that your partner hasn't cheated.


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## GusPolinski

inmyprime said:


> It's very simple. The same way couples talk about what their ideas are about marriages without being married. What their ideas are about sex life without having had sex yet. When people discuss wills without having died etc etc.
> You can talk in general terms without assuming that this has already happened.
> 
> We had this conversation. Neither of us think the other person has cheated. "Ah but how do you know?" The same way you can never be 100% sure that your partner hasn't cheated.


Cool dance moves.

Here are some cool song lyrics...

Because no-thing 
is more impor-tant than 
the truuuuuth

We use the truth — or what we perceive to be the truth — to make a hundred different decisions every day, and decisions based on lies lead to errors and mistakes.

And then more decisions.

And then even more and more errors and mistakes.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Nothing is more important than the truth, and any “research” that would speak counter to that immutable principle isn’t worth the searching.


----------



## 269370

GusPolinski said:


> Cool dance moves.
> 
> Here are some cool song lyrics...
> 
> Because no-thing
> is more impor-tant than
> the truuuuuth
> 
> We use the truth — or what we perceive to be the truth — to make a hundred different decisions every day, and decisions based on lies lead to errors and mistakes.
> 
> And then more decisions.
> 
> And then even more and more errors and mistakes.
> 
> Garbage in, garbage out.
> 
> Nothing is more important than the truth, and any “research” that would speak counter to that immutable principle isn’t worth the searching.


Nice lyrics. Shame about the broken record though...

I got your point.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

in infidelity...no one benefits...so your question is ridiculous. 

I am going to tell you this again. When i confessed it was not to alleviate my guilt. It was to give my husband the right to choose to reconcile or divorce. I for the life of me do not understand why you cannot understand this. I did not need confess to make me feel better. I was scared to death..because i knew that he had told me if i cheated he would divorce me. I knew that telling him would most probably end in divorce. I knew I did not want a divorce...but I also knew he had the right to decide that for himself.

My words were....I know you have to do what is best for you and I will not ask for anything. I was prepared to hear...get the F out.


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> in infidelity...no one benefits...so your question is ridiculous.
> 
> I am going to tell you this again. When i confessed it was not to alleviate my guilt. It was to give my husband the right to choose to reconcile or divorce. I for the life of me do not understand why you cannot understand this. *I did not need confess to make me feel better.* I was scared to death..because i knew that he had told me if i cheated he would divorce me. I knew that telling him would most probably end in divorce. I knew I did not want a divorce...but I also knew he had the right to decide that for himself.
> 
> My words were....I know you have to do what is best for you and I will not ask for anything. *I was prepared to hear...get the F out.*


And when he didn't tell you to get the F out, did it make you feel worse?


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## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> in infidelity...no one benefits...so your question is ridiculous.


I asked who benefits after the confession, not who benefits in infidelity. It's clear who benefits during infidelity itself.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

inmyprime said:


> I asked who benefits after the confession, not who benefits in infidelity. It's clear who benefits during infidelity itself.


my point was no one benefits...confession or not. Can you please tell me...if you have not experienced infidelity..why are you even here? It makes no sense to me why a person who has never experienced infidelity would even be on a forum discussing it...but i can tell you this....you don't have a freaking clue...and Gus is right....BLAH BLAH BLAH

So have you cheated on your wife and not told her? is that why you are here? because for the life of me...I don't get it.

I understand trying to learn and broaden your horizons....I understand good discussion....but I don't understand why you are doing what you are doing....and I am out...


----------



## Quality

inmyprime said:


> Tell this to the thousands of people who commit suicide every year because of this wonderful truth. This is such a narrow-minded statement.
> 
> There are *many* (contemporary) marriage counsellors and psychologists who are pretty much all in agreement about this:
> 
> _TIME: Should you confess if you feel guilty about it?
> 
> No. I've got to tell you that this is very, very important. I'm a person who is just an advocate of truth. I really will do anything to tell the truth, so it took me a long time to get to the point where I say, just don't tell. Because how does it make a person less guilty to inflict terrible pain on someone? Which is exactly what the confession does. It puts the other person in a permanent state of hurt and grief and loss of trust and an inability to feel safe, and it doesn't alleviate your guilt. Your relationship is dealt a potentially devastating blow. Honesty is great, but it's an abstract moral principle.... *The higher moral principle, I believe, is not hurting people.* And when you confess to having an affair, you are hurting someone more than you can ever imagine. So I tell people, if you care that much about honesty, figure out who you want to be with, commit to that relationship and devote the rest of your life to making it the most honest relationship you can. But confessing your affair is the kind of honesty that is unnecessarily destructive. There are two huge exceptions to not telling: if you're having an affair and you haven't practiced safe sex, even if it's only one time, you have to tell. Again, the moral principle is minimizing the hurt. But this time, the greatest risk of hurt comes from inflicting a sexually transmitted disease, and I've never seen a relationship recover from that. You also have to tell if discovery is imminent or likely. If you're going to be found out, then it's better for you to be the one to make the confession first.
> 
> Before I did this research, I really thought that affairs were fatal for relationships, but they're not. It all depends on how you deal with it, and that's why I have two sections in the book on how to repair and rebuild and heal the hurts. You need all of that. But if the person who has been cheated on has a talent for forgiveness and the cheater is truly sorry — this is one of the surprising findings — many, many people are able to use the affair as a wake-up call and end up so much happier with a relationship that gives them what they need, instead of just being on automatic and pretending that everything's O.K._
> 
> Why We Have Affairs — And Why Not to Tell - TIME



Mira Kirshembaum is an idiot betrayed wife and wayward apologist. She's also NOT very contemporary. She's 72 and that book was written in 1996. {I'm not being an age'ist, but refuting your claim that this tripe is some new trend --- stupid wayward psychotherapists can be found in every generation}

I've coached a couple recently that nearly went off the rails when the wayward wife was encouraged to read one of Mira's other garbage books by her individual counselor entitled “When Good People Have Affairs”. 

In that book too Mira also stated she thinks keeping secrets is best but she also thinks cheating is an expression of wisdom. A quote:Kirshenbaum writes: "You've moved ahead in life but your spouse has stayed behind. Having an affair is your way of being with someone you think better matches your circumstances." Yeah, another wayward --- they deserve each other. Mira also congratulates cheaters for not --- YET--- leaving their crap marriages because they’re apparently soooo very loyal.

Then that book takes the caught {or worse, secret keeping} wayward through 36 diagnostic questions designed to help the completely clueless crazy wayward decide whether they should stay or divorce. Every time you answer negatively, you'll be encouraged with comments like “people that answered this question the same way you did end up reporting that they are happy they divorced and didn’t stay married.

Besides it NOT being their choice at all {they have no biblical grounds to divorce anyway}. Why any marriage counselor would be pushing a fogged out recent wayward to consider it on their own using a crappy book by Mira, when, if you read the questions, it's a foregone conclusion 99.99% of waywards would conclude the book is telling them to divorce is ridiculous and foolhardy. 

In other words, it's just an extremely stupid exercise for anyone to assess their relationship at the worst possible moment of such relationship, using apparently subjective materials.

For example, Brazilian surfer, Rodrigo Koxa, in November rode the biggest wave ever surfed {record was confirmed yesterday - 80 Ft}. If it was possible and some other freak could have rode alongside and interviewed him WHILE he was riding the face of that monstrous wave, you'd likely be talking to one freaked out guy thinking he is possibly about to die. He didn't sound like that after the fact, calling it the best day of his life; but, surely, in the moment it was a very different feeling. 

Simply put - Mira is a divorce counselor and, despite having been betrayed, doesn't understand fully the unrepentant wayward mindset . 


You asked earlier whether being honest would be better for the WS or the BS and my answer is: truth is better for the marriage. In a healthy marriage you are no longer individuals to that extent. You are supposed to be way more than just buddies, roommates and|or each other pets.

*Truth can also be better for the entire family. Kids can handle truth. - Our kids know. Our families know. Our friends know. Our pastors know. My men's group knows. My wife's friends know. Because everyone knows and because of that we've had the opportunity to help so many couples in real life. Truth really does set you free.


----------



## sokillme

I swear to God if this thread gets shut down after I spent time writing all that I am gonna be pissed. 

Mods can you make them take this discussion to another thread?


----------



## 269370

Mrs. John Adams said:


> my point was no one benefits...confession or not. Can you please tell me...if you have not experienced infidelity..why are you even here? It makes no sense to me why a person who has never experienced infidelity would even be on a forum discussing it...but i can tell you this....you don't have a freaking clue...and Gus is right....BLAH BLAH BLAH
> 
> 
> 
> So have you cheated on your wife and not told her? is that why you are here? because for the life of me...I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand trying to learn and broaden your horizons....I understand good discussion....but I don't understand why you are doing what you are doing....and I am out...



Are you seriously telling me I cannot post because I haven’t experienced infidelity first hand* and because you have, it somehow makes you an expert on this subject?
You are deflecting the tough but entirely reasonable questions every single time when you don’t like the question (or the answer).

I don’t know why people do this: they post content on a public board but then try to control the responses. That’s not what forums and civilised discussions are about.

*I have actually experienced it (if it’s going to make you drop this comment). Before I met my wife, when I was 14 or 15 I had two girlfriends. At the same time. I couldn’t stand either of them. Until I met my wife and fell in love. Technically, it was infidelity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

inmyprime said:


> .
> Ask yourselves one question: who benefits the most during the confession (in this particular scenario), the BS or WS?
> That’s all.





Quality said:


> Truth really does set you free.



Now it’s my turn to thank you for the answer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## harperlee

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Forgiving does not mean or equal forgetting. *to stop feeling anger toward (someone who has done something wrong) : to stop blaming (someone) : to stop feeling anger about (something) : to forgive someone for (something wrong) : to stop requiring payment of (money that is owed)*
> 
> Do you see anything about FORGETTING in this definition of forgiveness?
> 
> Everyone has an opinion...but not everyone is right.
> 
> I don't THINK he has forgiven me. I KNOW he has.


Mrs. John Adams, with respect, if your husband has forgiven you after a short EA and a one night stand over 30 years ago, why are you still flagellating yourself? Why does he permit it? 
If my spouse had a one night stand and was still talking about it after grown kids, grand kids.... I would think my spouse was the one who isn't over it.

If I chose to reconcile, there isn't any way on God's earth that I would still want to hear about it, every day, for more than 30 years.


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## personofinterest

harperlee said:


> Mrs. John Adams, with respect, if your husband has forgiven you after a short EA and a one night stand over 30 years ago, why are you still flagellating yourself? Why does he permit it?
> If my spouse had a one night stand and was still talking about it after grown kids, grand kids.... I would think my spouse was the one who isn't over it.
> 
> If I chose to reconcile, there isn't any way on God's earth that I would still want to hear about it, every day, for more than 30 years.


I don't get the idea it really comes up in their everyday lives much. I think she talks about it on forums becuase, well, that is the topic.

I do agree that after years and years if someone is still lamenting how "things are never the same and I'm so crushed" on a regular basis, there may be an element of chosen misery. But I don't think that's going on in this case.

By the way, your screen name, Harper Lee, is AWESOME


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## SpinyNorman

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Its important to note I'm only talking about physical affairs. I don't have to be a woman to know, its biology...
> 
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> A new study published in the journal Evolutionary Psychology set out to determine how people feel about the two types of infidelity.
> 
> Researchers from Kansas State University recruited 477 adults — 238 men and 239 women — and asked them to fill out several questionnaires on a variety of topics, including relationships and cheating. One such question was, “Which would distress you more: Imagining your partner enjoying passionate sexual intercourse with another person or imagining your partner forming a deep emotional attachment with another person?”
> 
> After analyzing the results, researchers came to a very clear conclusion: “Males reported that sexual infidelity scenarios were *relatively more distressing* than emotional infidelity scenarios, and the opposite was true of
> females,” they wrote in the study.
> 
> Interestingly, the purpose of the study was to determine which factors — be it attachment style, feelings of trust, relationship habits, etc. — would lead someone to feel one way or the other about cheating. But at the end of the study, researches discovered that the only factor that played a role was gender. Men were most upset by physical cheating and women were more upset by emotional cheating — end of story.


Of course it doesn't say the results were unanimous, so there are likely people in the 477 surveyed who don't match your model, not to mention in the rest of the world.


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## Mrs. John Adams

I don’t beat myself up not does he beat me up. We rarely speak of it anymore. 

I have expressed my goal on this thread but I will repeat it. I am here to give hope to those who choose to reconcile that is is possible.... difficult... but possible. And I believe that many times divorce is the right answer. But I offer my support to those who are struggling with infidelity regardless of their decision. I am also on forums to help waywards find their way to remorse. 

I belong to several forums though I don’t post on a regular basis on any of them. 

So John and I rarely speak about my affair anymore. It is not an issue for us. We don’t need help or advice. We have found our way and we are grateful to those who pointed us in the right direction. I am simply trying to pay it forward.


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