# So I am the HD wife, but I have responsive desire...



## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

So I'm the HD wife, but I have responsive desire
DH is completely 100% responsive.

During perimenopause, I had my Awakening, and I could not be denied. I went through many years of gatekeeping, ED, Low T, and climax difficulties for me. I was able to push through those things, find solutions, and push for things to be better because I was "driven" by hormones.

Now I have reached a time where we've seen a marriage coach twice and a Sex Therapist.

I now refuse to initiate, as that will not fill my bucket.

I want to feel desired, pursued, and feel like he gives a damn about my needs being met. I have been explicit and told him what meeting my needs looks like.

(If I just came out right now and said babe I have needs meet them, he'll be like okay. But that does not meet my need. I would like for him to want to work to meet my need.)

I've given him a time frame of how often I need frequency.

I don't want this dynamic to continue forever, I just want my initial needs met of feeling desired and pursued met, and then I can see us going to a 50-50 initiation. But I can't get him past this point of not initiating, anticipating my needs, attempting to meet my needs, or even asking me if I have needs.

Tonight he didn't think of me, he intended to go to bed, and I stopped him, telling him that I had unmet needs, and how did he think that I should cope with those unmet needs?

(In the past, my solutions haven't been great. My solutions include divorce, an affair, a visit to the Looney Bin, suicide, and more recently, porn and masturbation. We can also add in I will drink to numb the pain.)

(And fyi, my husband's ED is mitigated with Viagra, he doesn't even always need it, he takes testosterone, and his numbers are higher than the average population, so both of those things don't factor in to this equation. I'm a nurse, I've done my homework, and I'm doing the damn best I can.)

We're reaching a milestone anniversary this month. He's currently working with a marriage coach individually one on one, and I guess I'm expecting miracles.

But when I asked him tonight how I was supposed to cope, he couldn't offer me a solution. He said he didn't know how I should cope. SERIOUSLY?
After 45 minutes of bantering back and forth, he finally offered to give me pleasure.

I just can't get this dog to bite.

I'm tired, I'm frustrated, I am losing hope.

The sex therapist that we met with one time suggested that my husband needed behavior modification, he's fought it tooth and nail.

The overall general impression I get from TAM, is that you guys tend to be a bit pessimistic about the Low Drive/High Drive dynamic.

I don't exactly think you're wrong.

I've been fighting for almost 25 years to make this better. There's not a lot of hope or fight left in me but I'm not completely done.

Bad Santa or anybody with actual advice (besides throw in the towe), I would really like to hear from you.

I'm not an idiot.

I've done my homework.

I know my husband loves me, I love him, we are just so different.

Help and advice sought.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How does your husband handle other things, for example when you two disagree on something? Or how about when he has an issue, does he bring it up to you and the two of you talk and negotiation a resolution?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Wow, this is completely unacceptable in every way. 

Frankly, his T may be OK but something is wrong with him besides his LD. 

I am not saying this is the next step, but... I would AGAIN sit him down and say, " If you cannot get yourself and your sex drive together I want a divorce. I love you but I cannot live like this." 

Then he changes, or you divorce. 

The other option is an open relationship, and all that that entails good and bad. 

I think that is where you are at...


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> My solutions include divorce, an affair, a visit to the Looney Bin, suicide, and more recently, porn and masturbation.


If I were your husband, I would feel completely inadequate and emasculated. I wouldn't have any solutions as to how your needs could be met, either. I would be "responsive" rather than pro-active, too.



workerbee said:


> He's currently working with a marriage coach individually one on one, and I guess I'm expecting miracles.


Yes, I think you are expecting miracles. But I sure give your husband an A+ for seeking the help.



workerbee said:


> you guys tend to be a bit pessimistic about the Low Drive/High Drive dynamic.


I'd have to count myself among that number, as well.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

TJW said:


> If I were your husband, I would feel completely inadequate and emasculated. I wouldn't have any solutions as to how your needs could be met, either. I would be "responsive" rather than pro-active, too.
> 
> Yes, I think you are expecting miracles. But I sure give your husband an A+ for seeking the help.


Whoa TJW... this is harsh don't you think.

It is a married man's job to meet his wife's sexual need and her his. What are her options.

When my last ex wife was preggo, she wanted to **** everyday, all day. I think I was just under 30 and I could barly keep up. My Junk felt like hamburger, but I got the job done.

I thought I was going to get ****ed to death but I got the job done several times a day, every day, and when ever she woke up at night.

What is this women to do, her H is not getting the job done, she wants to get laid, I get it...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

If you think divorce isn't an option, I think you are out of options. You thus far haven't been able to "make" him be the partner you need. I doubt there is anything else you can do that will magic him into a different personality, passion, and care level.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Livvie said:


> If you think divorce isn't an option, I think you are out of options. You thus far haven't been able to "make" him be the partner you need. I doubt there is anything else you can do that will magic him into a different personality, passion, and care level.


Did she say Divorce was not an option? I thought she listed it? 

I think you are right, that is the only way to really handle this. I know she does not want to, but if she wants a sex life it will not be with him...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The advice you're looking for from us is a Unicorn that doesn't exist.

However, this entire post is about what you need and how those needs are not being met. One of the options you have not listed is to adjust your expectations and accept him as he is, and drop the need to be pursued so much.

You state that if you vocalize it directly, he will man-up, but you don't find that satisfying. Having a mate that tries when told what to do is not the worst thing in a marriage.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cletus said:


> The advice you're looking for from us is a Unicorn that doesn't exist.
> 
> However, this entire post is about what you need and how those needs are not being met. One of the options you have not listed is to adjust your expectations and accept him as he is, and drop the need to be pursued so much.
> 
> You state that if you vocalize it directly, he will man-up, but you don't find that satisfying. Having a mate that tries when told what to do is not the worst thing in a marriage.


Guys, this is beyond the pale now. And from my point of view, it almost sounds sexist? What is the deal? 

This woman is having NORMAL expectations of her husband, just like any other husband should have of his wife. 

And we are telling her to Cool it. She has not had an affair, she is not cheating, she wants her marriage, and you guys think she is out of line. 

She is normal, her Husband is Beyond Low DRIVE. This is not her fault. 

I have never met an normal woman in my life that did not want to feel desired by her husband. 

What is up guys???


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> What is up guys???


25 years of failure combined with the maxim that the only person you can change is yourself.

Requiring anything of your sexual partner that they cannot deliver is an E ticket to dissatisfaction. If after two and a half decades they show you who they are and you refuse to believe it, having tried every conceivable recourse, makes you obstinate but a slow learner.

Who says that it's reasonable to require that your spouse be the pursuer? If you want sex so much, seems the burden of seeking it out ought to land on your shoulders.

If you want out of that situation, no one will begrudge you access to the door.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cletus said:


> 25 years of failure combined with the maxim that the only person you can change is yourself.
> 
> Requiring anything of your sexual partner that they cannot deliver is an E ticket to dissatisfaction. If after two and a half decades they show you who they are and you refuse to believe it, having tried every conceivable recourse, makes you obstinate but a slow learner.
> 
> ...


I am sorry for your lot, you could have divorced just like she can. 

Some of the problem is, people don't stand up for themselves. In your case and in her case, I personally would have NEVER ever stood for what was going on.

Hey, not everyone is compatible, so just move on. 

We agree on one thing, if her husband or your wife has not changed yet, they never will. 

Time to move on...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I am sorry for your lot, you could have divorced just like she can.
> 
> Some of the problem is, people don't stand up for themselves. In your case and in her case, I personally would have NEVER ever stood for what was going on.
> 
> ...


Then we agree. There is no advice that will get her what she wants, your editorializing about my life choices notwithstanding.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Then we agree. There is no advice that will get her what she wants, your editorializing about my life choices notwithstanding.


You spoke about it first. 

I think that maybe there is a 1% chance that her H could wake up. But we probably do agree about the fact the odds are low. 

I think she should divorce... Her decision, like it was yours...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Did she say Divorce was not an option? I thought she listed it?
> 
> I think you are right, that is the only way to really handle this. I know she does not want to, but if she wants a sex life it will not be with him...


She says she wanted "actual advice" besides throw in the towel.

Problem is, that's probably the only _actual advice_ that will change the situation.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Livvie said:


> She says she wanted "actual advice" besides throw in the towel.
> 
> Problem is, that's probably the only _actual advice_ that will change the situation.


Apologies to @TJW - this post is not directly related, but, in another forum, people get this kind of advice ...



TJW said:


> It may just be his basic personality type. In which case, any attempt to change him will be futile. He has no idea what you want. If you want one of us guys to "connect-the-dots", you will have to make the dots very large, and use all single-digit numbers. In fact, less than 3 is best.
> 
> I have to admit, I don't know what you want, either.
> 
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch, it seems like you have a good husband. Maybe try to just accept him as he is.


Why is this considered bad advice here? Everyone agrees a change needs to be made. If divorce is off the table (and maybe it shouldn't be), then one or the other of you will have to change. Should you pick straws to determine which one of you it will be?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Livvie said:


> She says she wanted "actual advice" besides throw in the towel.
> 
> Problem is, that's probably the only _actual advice_ that will change the situation.


I missed that part.

I was originally trying to be hopefull that maybe the "one last talk", or the open marriage talk may spur him to action.

You are probably right, that divorce is about all that will make it better.

I hate saying that all the time, but it does solve some problems... Oh well...


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

So you threaten suicide if you don't get him to meet your needs???

I understand your frustration but threatening suicide for crying out loud?

I would dump your ass in a second.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

This is my first chance to respond, and Sideways, you aren't wrong!
That actually made me lol!
I've been married almost a quarter of a century, and I know it sounds dramatic, and stupid, but he is the absolute love of my life....I have an extremely hard time imagining my life without him. 
It's the typical **** show with HD/LD, only factor in we're both responsive desire. 
The dynamic of me attempting to fill my own bucket with sexual affection and affirmation made me question my sanity and will to live. I'm not proud of this. I'm generally passed that now, but oh good God the grief and sadness when the love of your life doesn't desire you.
I mean it took me a LONG time to be able to define the problem. I thought it was me, I was sex starved, or love starved, and the man provides me with lots of platonic love, he is gracious and giving, selfless and self motivated in every facet of life EXCEPT SEX. Like I said typical HD/LD dynamic..."except for the sex, we have a perfect marriage " blah Blah Blah. 
So basically in my uncertainty of identifying the problem, I internalized it, and I thought I was broken. Asking for more than a normal person would need or want. That I was a complete black hole of emptiness, so my brain fell into considering suicide. Again, I am not proud, and I promise you I never used it as a ploy, but that still makes me lol, cause I could see myself saying or thinking sarcastic **** like that if I read this.
I can't remember what everyone else posted, we just had another conversation that went nowhere......I'll re read and respond in a bit.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> How does your husband handle other things, for example when you two disagree on something? Or how about when he has an issue, does he bring it up to you and the two of you talk and negotiation a resolution?


We rarely disagree on anything. 
It's completely typical, if it weren't for the sex issue, we'd have a perfect marriage. 
We're usually very good at finding solutions. 
I would love him to lead more, and I lead a lot by default. He's easy going in life, but a leader in some things, just not so much in our marriage, but he's responsible, has integrity, and I respect him more than anyone I know.
He's just sucking at this.
And I swear to God, I am not hard to please. I'm easy to warm up, and welcome most advances even if they are sometimes clumsy. 
He just won't initiate. 
Or understand how lonely I feel when he neglects me.
That would count, if he offered solace.
A vibe would be better, but damnit, if I am hurting shouldn't you show care?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Wow, this is completely unacceptable in every way.
> 
> Frankly, his T may be OK but something is wrong with him besides his LD.
> 
> ...


That is where we are at.
He knows.

I don't want a divorce, but it's looking like the only remaining option.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

There are few things less sexy then someone making their problem your problem to the point they think it's okay to badger you about it. I don't see how he ever gets it up at all. He's certainly not obligated to do so on your schedule. 

See, the problem with this is you don't acknowledge the reality that most people can't always have what they want when they want it. That would be a very self-centered way to look at things. Narcissistic even.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

TJW said:


> If I were your husband, I would feel completely inadequate and emasculated. I wouldn't have any solutions as to how your needs could be met, either. I would be "responsive" rather than pro-active, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kinda off subject, but I swear I remember you from another marriage board that no longer exists.....
Anyways, yeah....he says he's a failure, and he doesn't know what to do. 
I say, :it puts it's hand on my body" (insert creepy meme)
He doesn't have to pop a viagra, or even physically engage if he's tired/not feeling it. I'm open to damn near anything a married couple can explore when someone has unfulfilled needs. And I have thrown him suggestions repeatedly, even written down ideas. 
If he'd take a mere 15 minutes with me here and there, think about all that time we could save arguing about it.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There are few things less sexy then someone making their problem your problem to the point they think it's okay to badger you about it. I don't see how he ever gets it up at all. He's certainly not obligated to do so on your schedule.
> 
> See, the problem with this is you don't acknowledge the reality that most people can't always have what they want when they want it. That would be a very self-centered way to look at things. Narcissistic even.


Oh, that's interesting. (and I just saw your post, so I am responding out of order)
Well, aren't married people expecting their spouse to be their source of sexual fulfillment?
I spent most of our marriage in the desert, and we are older. He's more than a decade older than I am. I don't have a lot of time to restore what the locusts ate, I know what's available, and I want my needs met. I sacrificed my own needs thinking I was too needy, now I see what we've been dealing with and want resolution. 
I don't think that makes me a narcissist, but I may be a *****.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

(My apologies, was using multi-quote)


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Livvie said:


> If you think divorce isn't an option, I think you are out of options. You thus far haven't been able to "make" him be the partner you need. I doubt there is anything else you can do that will magic him into a different personality, passion, and care level.


I am attempting to make sure that I have exhausted every possible option. 
But I don't disagree. 
I just can't let it be until I have seen every possible perspective and option.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Whoa TJW... this is harsh don't you think.
> 
> It is a married man's job to meet his wife's sexual need and her his. What are her options.
> 
> ...



Oh, preggers got nothing on perimenopause! I was horny when pregnant, I was in heat during perimenopause. It was a nightmare and a joyride!

And I am not even hot and bothered most of the time, I am responsive, that's my usual nature [preggers and perimenopause aside]. I just want intimacy that he generates toward me, not me generating toward him.
I want to feel known, understood and accepted.
I sound naive, I am sure.
But it's honestly what drives me to want this so badly.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Cletus said:


> The advice you're looking for from us is a Unicorn that doesn't exist.
> 
> However, this entire post is about what you need and how those needs are not being met. One of the options you have not listed is to adjust your expectations and accept him as he is, and drop the need to be pursued so much.
> 
> You state that if you vocalize it directly, he will man-up, but you don't find that satisfying. Having a mate that tries when told what to do is not the worst thing in a marriage.


Oh God yes it is.
I don't want a yes man.
I am no dominatrix, but I could easily be sub. At least a bit. 
He never chased me.
Ever.
That scar is like a scarlet letter I wear around my heart that no one else sees, but I feel defined by it.
I've never chased a guy before. But he was the one. And I am paying for it.
Sex is multifaceted, no one can argue that.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

I see a few points I want to make, @workerbee. But I want to ask you some questions first. You said that you were suicidal at one point over your H never initiating sex. Did you connect those two for your H? Does he know that you actually considered killing yourself over this issue? 
The scar you carry around your heart - have you told him this as well? 
You've said that he's over 10 years older than you. What exactly is the age difference and what is his age now? 
You just wrote that he's never chased you. Was there ever a time in your marriage when sex was more easy and freely given and received? 
What I'm getting at with these questions is that it seems to me that your H is under a lot of pressure from you to initiate sex. What is most important to you - having him persue you or having sex with him?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@workerbee

What was your sex life like in the beginning of your relationship? Did he initiate then?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

blahfridge said:


> I see a few points I want to make, @workerbee. But I want to ask you some questions first. You said that you were suicidal at one point over your H never initiating sex. Did you connect those two for your H? Does he know that you actually considered killing yourself over this issue?
> The scar you carry around your heart - have you told him this as well?
> You've said that he's over 10 years older than you. What exactly is the age difference and what is his age now?
> You just wrote that he's never chased you. Was there ever a time in your marriage when sex was more easy and freely given and received?
> What I'm getting at with these questions is that it seems to me that your H is under a lot of pressure from you to initiate sex. What is most important to you - having him persue you or having sex with him?


Let me answer the last question first: Him initiating. He'll never pursue me, but him initiating shows he's mindful of taking care of my needs. He'll never long for me, he will never long for anyone. But he deeply loves me, this I know. (There's some family of origin dynamics at play, no physical abuse, but complete withholding of affection.)
But if he initiates, he's being intentional. It won't be desire FOR me, but it will be out love, care, and of the knowledge that I have unmet needs.
He's 61, I'm 50.

The scar I carry around my heart....he has heard me say more than a dozen times that I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking that the love of my life didn't reciprocate. He loves me, but it isn't the same.

After successful trt was in play, he knew that I was trying to find a way to cope with his continued lack of spontaneous desire for me. (He is completely responsive, and we didn't understand that aspect of sexual response.) And during that time we were also trying to figure out how to navigate my new climax issues that arrived at perimenopause when I was raging horny. (At one point he asked if we could limit our intimacy to the weekend. I'm not talking multiple sessions per day, I mean maybe the entire weekend. He made me feel like a chore. I've always felt like a chore).

So our lack of understanding about responsive/spontaneous HD/LD, my putting my sexual desire at bay throughout our marriage assuming that I was a chore, coupled with my new found hormonal surge created quite the angst.

We discussed MANY times wtf was wrong with me. Was I crazy?
His testosterone levels were good, we loved eachother, found eachother appealing, we both wanted to want, he just didn't want (obviously we didn't realize his wanting _did_ occur, but only in response to my initiation. If I turned him on, which wasn't difficult, he'd play ball.)

Anyway, feeling like a failure, my husband didn't desire me, pounce on me, initiate, lust over my bits and parts, yet I could still turn a few heads, well...the love of my life didn't desire me back and he heard my looney bin, suicide, affair or divorce options and didn't have any alternative to offer. He was as confused as I was.

And no, sex was never given freely, I would coax him into wanting it, feeling like a harlot in my own marriage bed.....because I didn't understand responsive desire.

Now I asking for the same in return, _for a short period_ because I am responsive. Turn me on.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> @workerbee
> 
> What was your sex life like in the beginning of your relationship? Did he initiate then?


The very first time and then for less than one year. 
Isn't that called bait and switch?
I had no idea what I was getting into, or how painful it could be.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Guys, this is beyond the pale now. And from my point of view, it almost sounds sexist? What is the deal?
> 
> This woman is having NORMAL expectations of her husband, just like any other husband should have of his wife.
> 
> ...


Thanks 

He actually told the sex therapist that he has no desire. He is responsive though. I was the fittest, keto/working out a few years ago before our 22 anniversary for a cruise, it makes no difference what I wear, what I look like, my makeup, jewelry, lingerie, no difference at all until I start my moves on him. I even did a Boudoir shoot to seek some objective black and white (& color) validation that "I've still got it". It hurts my soul. It effects my joy in life.
Now, give the man 2 weeks without any, and he needs no viagra, and he is almost spontaneous. 
I know he's older, _but we aren't getting any younger_
I'm solution oriented, and if anyone can tell me an approach I'll happily give er a shot.
He's a good man, I am a good gal, we both have good intentions, but men that are LD don't get researched so nobody knows how to navigate this ****.
And, it sucks monkey balls.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

OMG reading this makes me sick, it's so dripping with diarrhea of the mouth.
There's venting and asking for advice, but I feel like I have taken this to a morbid repugnant level.
Is this a normal reaction to reading your own words about your crappy relationship?

Asking for a friend.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> Isn't that called bait and switch?


I can see how you would view it that way.

I think divorce and remarriage to someone else is probably the only solution to your sexual fulfillment. That's the only approach I can see which has any possibility of delivering what you want.

But there's an extreme risk in this. You will have divorced your husband (who you say is a high-quality husband) for no legitimate grounds. Then, you will have married a complete unknown. The bait-and-switch, this time, may get you a besotted, philandering, abusive, freeloading numbskull who's a fair-weather friend of Bill W (every ten years or so).



workerbee said:


> And, it sucks monkey balls.


Just be careful that you don't leave chimpanzee balls for gorilla.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There are few things less sexy then someone making their problem your problem to the point they think it's okay to badger you about it. I don't see how he ever gets it up at all. He's certainly not obligated to do so on your schedule.
> 
> See, the problem with this is you don't acknowledge the reality that most people can't always have what they want when they want it. That would be a very self-centered way to look at things. Narcissistic even.


Wow, I have never ever seen these types of Reponses on this or any other board in my life. DBR, yours is just an example. 

Folks, why is someone wanting to have a normal sex life selfish? When did that happen? 

If she wanted sex 4 times a day and 100 O's a day, then ok, maybe she is abnormal. 

When did modern people think that normal or even high sex drive is wrong. 

This is just silly. 

And OP, you are not dealing with the normal HD/LD thing. Your are probably dealing with a Asexual person (that did not know it before marriage) or something along those lines. 

Please do not listen to people that say something is wrong with you. 

NOTHING is wrong with you, your H yes, but you No way...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

workerbee said:


> Oh, preggers got nothing on perimenopause! I was horny when pregnant, I was in heat during perimenopause. It was a nightmare and a joyride!
> 
> And I am not even hot and bothered most of the time, I am responsive, that's my usual nature [preggers and perimenopause aside]. I just want intimacy that he generates toward me, not me generating toward him.
> I want to feel known, understood and accepted.
> ...


I have live through PM with several women and yes they are in heat. But a health woman even after PM can have a health sex drive. My F, is one. She is always hot to trot, which works out because so am I...


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

It sounds like your husband is suffering from depression.

Then you come at him about the situation you are in just makes it that much worse. He is going to feel like a complete failure.

He needs counseling to see if it is depression and what the best course of treatment would be.

I have read stories where the couple is trying to have a child. Sex becomes a duty and loses all pleasure for one if not both. Do you think this might be going on with him? Has sex become a duty for him and something he is distancing himself from?

I know you haven’t told your entire life story. You have focused on the situation at hand. I don’t know what else is going on in your marriage.

Do the two of you still date one another?

Do you have date nights?

Do you two get away for a weekend?

Or is there just time for sex because of schedules?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

workerbee said:


> OMG reading this makes me sick, it's so dripping with diarrhea of the mouth.
> There's venting and asking for advice, but I feel like I have taken this to a morbid repugnant level.
> Is this a normal reaction to reading your own words about your crappy relationship?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


NO WAY, your posts aren't "morbid" or "repugnant" - this is why you came here!!! You have to tell as much as possible, or else people don't know how to advise you!

I would say, YES, your reactions and feelings about what you've said ARE "normal" - I know I always feel bad when I think I've exposed too much of myself to others, but don't let those reactions force you to stop sharing if you really NEED to -- you are trying to resolve a problem and asking for help with that - GOOD FOR YOU!!!


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

workerbee said:


> Let me answer the last question first: Him initiating. He'll never pursue me, but him initiating shows he's mindful of taking care of my needs. He'll never long for me, he will never long for anyone. But he deeply loves me, this I know. (There's some family of origin dynamics at play, no physical abuse, but complete withholding of affection.)
> But if he initiates, he's being intentional. It won't be desire FOR me, but it will be out love, care, and of the knowledge that I have unmet needs.
> He's 61, I'm 50.
> 
> ...


OP, respectfully, I am going to ask you to look at this from 50,000 feet up. You have a devoted H who loves you, is considerate and faithful. You have sex regularly and it's good (correct me if I am wrong on this) but that he doesn't initiate. This is what you have zeroed in on as the big problem in your life. You say that you have been suicidal and feel like a failure. Aside from whatever your H issues may be, suicidal tendencies, feelings of worthlessness stem from depression or other mental health issues. I strongly suggest that you and your H both get individual therapy. If he won't then do it anyway for you. 
In the meantime, continue to initiate in a loving, nonjudgemental way that takes the pressure off of him. He's got to feel like a failure himself and that isn't going to help him feel confident enough to pursue you. It sounds like there's so much tension in your marriage around this issue. Set it aside for a while, let him know you think he's wonderful, and work on yourself for a while. Have intimate conversations that don't involve your marriage, but where you both talk about your fears, hopes, and dreams. Go on romantic dates with no expectations. You both need to relax around each other.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

TJW said:


> If I were your husband, I would feel completely inadequate and emasculated. I wouldn't have any solutions as to how your needs could be met, either. I would be "responsive" rather than pro-active, too.





DownByTheRiver said:


> There are few things less sexy then someone making their problem your problem to the point they think it's okay to badger you about it. I don't see how he ever gets it up at all. He's certainly not obligated to do so on your schedule.
> 
> See, the problem with this is you don't acknowledge the reality that most people can't always have what they want when they want it. That would be a very self-centered way to look at things. Narcissistic even.


JAREEEZE!
Gender sexual inequality much?
Nothing remotely like this is stated to the multitudes of men who write the exact same thing.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StarFires said:


> JAREEEZE!
> Gender sexual inequality much?
> Nothing remotely like this is stated to the multitudes of men who write the exact same thing.


I was going to say the same thing. I just got tired of saying it.

How can people tell anyone, male or female, to just live with it?

What is going on in this world. Do people not see or understand that ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS involve sex????????

Good God, when you are marriage in a mono marriage, you are both responsible to meet each others sexual needs. Why is that so hard to understand.

I have heard personally, and read, about woman and men that ARE desperate to feel desired by they Husband or Wife.

After my Fiancé understood what REAL sex was all about, it is something that she talks about all the time. She never turns me down and I don't turn her down.

And we are 56 and 62 and we hit it hard every day. It is my job to make her feel beautiful and sexy and let her know that I lover AND desire her. She feels that way. And that is the way that I want it.

The only problem is she kind of makes her GF's that are not having quality sex feel a little bad because she is so happy about all of it. But she does not really "get that" and I don't think it would change what she says...

The way some people here write, they think sex is bad, or not a big deal, or not fun or something else I don't understand.

WHY??? WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT WAY...

Here is a woman that loves her husband, is NOT having an affair and we are telling her to live with it?

I would never tell anyone male or female to just live with it.

And if she has to divorce because he just cannot step up to the plate, then so be it. It would not be the first man or woman that left a marriage because of sexual incompatibility...

WTF?????


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Wow, I have never ever seen these types of Reponses on this or any other board in my life. DBR, yours is just an example.
> 
> Folks, why is someone wanting to have a normal sex life selfish? When did that happen?
> 
> ...


Well, apparently, to my utter shock and disdain, it happened when the normal person wanting a normal sex life became a woman.

For F's sake!


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StarFires said:


> Well, apparently, to my utter shock and disdain, it happened when the normal person wanting a normal sex life became a woman.
> 
> For F's sake!


Gosh I hope you are wrong. Everyone deserve good sex, male of female. 

I just don't get it...


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Gosh I hope you are wrong. Everyone deserve good sex, male of female.
> 
> I just don't get it...


She has said the sex is good and regular, though her H did ask her if they could limit it to the weekends. So it’s not as if it’s a sexless marriage or that he doesn’t satisfy her when they do have sex.
Many come here and complain of no sex or duty sex, she has not used either of those terms. She has said that he has responsive desire though and doesn’t initiate and that it is making her miserable. I am suggesting that to be suicidal is deeper than this one issue and she should figure that out. She is putting enormous responsibility and pressure on her H to be her salvation.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

blahfridge said:


> She has said the sex is good and regular, though her H did ask her if they could limit it to the weekends. So it’s not as if it’s a sexless marriage or that he doesn’t satisfy her when they do have sex.
> Many come here and complain of no sex or duty sex, she has not used either of those terms. She has said that he has responsive desire though and doesn’t initiate and that it is making her miserable. I am suggesting that to be suicidal is deeper than this one issue and she should figure that out. She is putting enormous responsibility and pressure on her H to be her salvation.


That is not what I got from her. He does not initiate AT ALL. And I don't think she thinks that it is frequent enough. 

If it was regular and good, I don't think she would be here. And I mean regular and good enough...

And she said she WAS really upset at one point but now she is not that upset, suicidal was a little bit of an exaggeration I think...

Maybe OP can tell us her frequency and quality and current mental state...


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Workerbee, I got whiplashed and then sideswiped and run over by a couple of responses to you, but let me see if I'm able to recover and get my thoughts together.

Give me just a minute here.

WHEW!!!

Trying to shake it off.

Now trying to screw my head back on straight.

A little more lube oil and I'll be ready.
Pun intended.

Oops my eye popped out because I couldn't believe what I was reading.

Squish, ploop.
There we go.

Okay, I'm all set now and just want to share two thoughts.

But first I just want to let you know I HEAR YOU, GIRL!!!
I am also high drive and totally responsive, and I commend you for initiating. You go!

First thing is I want to fuss at you a little bit because I'm not a fan of people tolerating thngs they don't like for umpteen years and then becoming hard-wired in insisting on change. But I kind of get you a bit on that point too because you're older now and, even though you've always had the same needs, your needs are more intense with age. I'm 60 and didn't even know that with menopause I could get even better. It's been wonderful for me and pretty great for him too.

Like I said, I got whiplshed, sideswiped, and runover, so I haven't even read many of the other responses. Forgive me if anyone has already brought this up.

As you can see, if for no other reason than I mentioned it, men don't receive the types of responses as some of those you have received. This is not even close to the number of pathetic examples of gender sexual inequality I've seen in life. I just don't think I had ever seen it here on this board in such blatant review. It almost seems as though for SOME men, if they are not using a woman in her sexually objectified capacity for their purpose, then there is something wrong with her and/or she is emasculating her man and/or she's asking too much and/or she has no business expecting anything sexual from him. Believe me, I've been hounded and pounded by several guys on this board for suggesting men have any kind of responsibility to their woman's needs. They punched and argued and instigated and antagonized me to make sure I was the one who got banned for the arguments on all of those occasions.

Here is what it means: Some of them simply can't take it. In addition to a woman having the nerve to say they are responsible for their woman's sexual satisfaction, they also can't take the pressure. I don't have any statistics to offer and doubt there are any available because I'm sure if polled, they would roar their sexual prowess and regale us all in how blissfully satisfied their wives are (notwithstanding those who actually are). And you have to add to them the men who are mentally incapable of dealing with a sexually-awakened woman and one who, no less, actually expresses her needs to him.

There are some who grow up being taught that women are demure and are given the impression that women aren't sexual beings. For those men, it's as if they think - what I like to refer to as - the purpose of a woman's birth is to serve their sexual needs. You're familiar with some guys being taught about the types of women they can have fun with as being different from and less respected as the good girl types they can take home to mama and marry. For those guys to discover their wife has needs and expectations of him, it's almost like waking up to discover they married the fun girl, and they can't mentally manage what they deem as that discovery.

This could be your husband in some ways, and maybe he developed an obstinate mental block where fulfilling your request is concerned. Does that seem possible?

If it is, I'm not sure marriage counseling could help, but individual counseling for him just might. Provided, that is, he is willing.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

workerbee said:


> I don't have a lot of time to restore what the locusts ate


HAHAHAHAHA 
SOOO FUNNY!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

The unmentioned 800 lb gorilla in the room is, I think, the cultural phenomenon known as porn and masturbation. Men are visually oriented and porn is so available- it can very quickly divert a husbands’ sexual energy away from his wife.... big time locusts.

Workerbee, have you ever investigated hubby’s devices for evidence?

My personal experience is that I never really NEEDED my wife when porn was my little secret. Only years later after rooting it out of my life did I learn what true frustration and desire and madness (and wet dreams) were all about... especially when my wife was unavailable after child birth for weeks and weeks... and we have a big family now.

My point is, my desire for sex went quickly from “that sounds like a good idea” to “I must HAVE her and I will do anything within my power to make it happen..” Really not exaggerating.... I understand now why males of many species will fight and risk death for mating rights... admittedly I’m not even a high-T or alpha male kind of guy.

My advantage was I gave porn and masturbation up for religious reasons... best thing I ever did and maybe the hardest. If your hubby is “using” in secret he may never give it up.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I deleted a thread jack of members arguing with each other. Address your posts to @workerbee on this thread. Fighting/arguing between members will not be tolerated. If you don't like what someone else posted, just ignore that post. ~ Speaking as a moderator.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@workerbee,

There is a thread that addresses issues such as yours. *The Sex Starved Wife* It's a long thread, but read at least the first few pages as they provide resources.

You are not expecting too much, not at all. There have been a fair number of men who have posted on TAM with issues similar to yours. Their wife is responsive or seems to have no sex drive at all. The wife usually will only engage in missionary sex, and has all sorts of restrictions on what she will do sexually. The men want their wife to show desire for them, not just duty sex. Many just stop having sex with their wife because it's just too emotionally painful. I don't see your situation as any different.

@CatholicDad's thoughts about porn are interesting. Is there any chance at all that your husband is using porn and taking care of himself sexually, leaving him with no desire for sex with you? I had this happen in my marriage, it took me a long time to figure out that my husband's lack of desire for sex with me was because of his porn use. I never saw you using it. I discovered his porn use by putting a key logger on his computer.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

With porn and masturbation men really gain an upper hand over their wives.... they don’t need them for sex- which leads also to men ignoring, being uncommunicative, and generally just not interested... just can destroy their wives.

Since men are typically more knowledgeable with technology... women may never find out.

My entire outlook on sex and my relationship with my wife has improved dramatically in the couple of decades since escaping porn... I’m much more interested, intimate, aggressive... still learning though how to handle the dark side of sexual frustration- how not to be pissy, angry, and entitled... can be really difficult when life gets busy.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Well damn, I have been slammed at work the last 2 days and missed out on all the drama here! (Moderators: is it REALLY hijacking if the OP is open to some entertainment? Asking for a friend lol).

In regard to Porn;
Maybe I just haven't been clear.
Sex Therapist asks: What do you experience to indicate desire?" (or some similar poorly worded question. Great therapist, crappy pre-session questionnaire.)
Answer: blank. Cause there's nothing that I do that turns him on but physical sexual advances. He is responsive. He's not visually stimulated, or it's very minimal. 
Masturbation isn't worth it to him, it's not worth the effort. We have engaged in mutual masturbation, but my hand does it easier for him than his own. He just isn't that interested in sex, but he tends to enjoy it once I get him interested. There are people who eat to live, and people who live to eat. The foodies are fun, and if they present their counterpart with an enticing hors d'oeuvre, with grest presentation including the fancy toothpicks, then the eat-to-live person might realize, FRUCK, I'M HUNGRY. That's my husband. He's not searching for porn, and it'd only excite him if I was stroking him while he watched it. So there's that.

Am I suicidal?
No. I am pretty sure I stopped being suicidal before we started marriage counseling 1 1/2 years ago. The pain that this dynamic causes still exists, but I do not believe it's an individual problem, it's a couple problem. We are wired differently. I can't change my wants, needs or desires as a foodie. He's wired completely different, and he cannot change his lack of appreciation for fine dining.
He can however, intentionally chose to make reservations at a Gastropub and surprise me. Or present my arse with some grilled cheese cut in triangles and present it to me like he's a godamn chef and that's really all that I am asking for. We both have to eat, can it not just be me that does all the ****ing meal planning?

And I appreciate the words of concern for my well being. I'm not suicidal, haven't been for a while since I could untangle the situation....that took a while.

And I appreciate people coming to my defense and validating my opinion. It's appreciated. 

I have looked at this situation, his perspective, my perspective, our individual histories, our emotional baggage and personality traits. I can and have given grace beyond measure. I've done my homework. I've been my own Knight in Shining Armor, and his. I feel I am pretty damned objective, but I am willing to be wrong. Hell, I have WANTED to be wrong, cause then I could fix this.

The other night we were intimate, it was wonderful for us both. I woke up feeling like an asshole and idiot, because he's this great man that I am hurting so much about something that isn't all that important. And then I realized that has been exactly what I have done for years.....tell him my needs aren't met, he meets them once and I think "All is well in my world. Nothing's wrong. Sorry I have been so hard on you honey, never mind, please forgive me " until several days later without intimacy and there we ****ing go again.
So that's on me, mixed messages. But oxygen is only important when you aren't getting any......

I do not want only 'yes men' responses on this thread. 
No one has been harder on themself than I have been. 
And I posted here knowing I would get some harsh responses. And it's fair. Question with boldness, I am game. I want solutions and to see anything that I may have missed. Self introspection and evaluation is important, we all have blind spots.

And someone pointed out there really isn't a way to bridge sexual incompatibility. So dealing with what is or divorce are my options. But if I chose divorce, I could end up with an asshole and have left a good willing man. Touche. 
But I want what I have to work better to meet my needs. Make me some freaking appetizers, bring them to me with a smile and nothing on but an apron. This shouldn't be that damn hard to fix with a little ****ing effort!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

BluesPower said:


> Good God, when you are marriage in a mono marriage, you are both responsible to meet each others sexual needs. Why is that so hard to understand.


Unfortunately, what you have posted above is not universally accepted as true. This is true even for people who adhere to some form of Christianity (despite what Scripture says). This site is very sex positive. If you go to something a little more sex neutral (like Reddit perhaps) you'll see lots of accounts of women (and some men) providing little or no sex, and sometimes not even feeling bad about it.

There's tons of excuses: it's my body, I don't really owe it to him/her, sex is not part of the marital give and take, sex is a bonus, and so on.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> can be really difficult when life gets busy.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there's always time to have sex if you prioritize things right. IOW you can run your life, get essential stuff done, and still have time for it.

People who repeatedly cite lack of time as a reason to not have sex are making excuses. The exceptions are physical separation (one of you travels and is rarely home, let's say), some sort of crisis, and extreme stuff like that.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Okay, I read through your other posts and better understand now. Most guys with your problem get responses telling them their wife doesn't love him, she doesn't respect him, she doesn't care about his needs, he should divorce her, she should just doing even if she doesn't want to, all that jazz. I'm afraid there are never any real answers or help, and goodness knows I abhor the "just do it" mentality. You mentioned before that he becomes spontaneous after about 2 weeks, so I'm wondering how often you noticed this. I'm sure you're like me and can hardly go 2 weeks, but just wondering how often you test his limits and if you get the desired results.

I'm also wondering if you've considered that he may have non-sexual responsive cues he might respond to. There's a book called "*The Five Love Languages*" that suggests everyone responds to particular types of non-sexual communication that makes them feel loved, appreciated, brings them closer to their partner, and releases testosterone, dopamine, oxytocin, and other hormones in the brain that trigger attraction and lust. Have you heard of it and if so, have you tried it? If not, then I'm thinking that maybe communicating with him in his love language, his core level, might help. 

And finally, I'm wondering if just a little bit of testosterone might help even though his levels are within normal range.

Other than asking and coaxing, what have you tried? And why was counseling unsuccessful?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

DTO said:


> Unfortunately, what you have posted above is not universally accepted as true. This is true even for people who adhere to some form of Christianity (despite what Scripture says). This site is very sex positive. If you go to something a little more sex neutral (like Reddit perhaps) you'll see lots of accounts of women (and some men) providing little or no sex, and sometimes not even feeling bad about it.
> 
> There's tons of excuses: it's my body, I don't really owe it to him/her, sex is not part of the marital give and take, sex is a bonus, and so on.


Yeah I know there are those who disagree with BluesPower's statement, but I wager that most of those people would be very hurt or angry if their spouse had sex with someone else. The first thing a woman would exclaim is "HE CHEATED ON ME!" I've seen it lots of times, which is utterly absurd to me. If a person does not have sex with their spouse because they don't want to or for any of the reasons you submitted, then how is it that their spouse cheated on them?

That kind of person has no philosophy about marriage that applies to themselves. They just want to control their spouse's sexual behaviors. But what kind of mental idiot thinks their spouse can't have sex with them or anybody else?

So when tested, lazy or crazy people not accepting that philosophy doesn't make it any less true in their own lives.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

StarFires said:


> Yeah I know there are those who disagree with BluesPower's statement, but I wager that most of those people would be very hurt or angry if their spouse had sex with someone else. The first thing a woman would exclaim is "HE CHEATED ON ME!" I've seen it lots of times, which is utterly absurd to me. If a person does not have sex with their spouse because they don't want to or for any of the reasons you submitted, then how is it that their spouse cheated on them?
> 
> That kind of person has no philosophy about marriage that applies to themselves. They just want to control their spouse's sexual behaviors. But what kind of mental idiot thinks their spouse can't have sex with them or anybody else?
> 
> So when tested, lazy or crazy people not accepting that philosophy doesn't make it any less true in their own lives.


I happen to completely agree with you. The withholder is just as much an offender against the marriage as the cheater. All of those excuses used for the refusers are based in a presumption that his or her wants and needs are more important than those of the partner being denied - bottom line. If you believed both your needs were equally valuable, you would do what it takes to provide a good experience.

The issue you run into is that these are normative issues without a definite right or wrong. There are people who think that needing sex is immature and refuse to treat those needs seriously. There are people who think they are more worthy than or take precedence over their partners, as well. You ever hear "if mama ain't happy, nobody's happy"?

I think in many / most of these cases you need to dig beyond sex and come to a basic values understanding. "Are you willing to treat my wants and needs as equally important as your own? And that means not theoretically but in the way you live your life every day. Yes or no?" Any answer other than an emphatic "no" should make you pause. A selfish spouse will cause problems in other areas of marriage too.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Workerbee, you say you’ve tried “everything” and you want ideas but then you quickly dismiss porn without even considering looking into it.

I guess we can get back to all the “our sex lives are so great” and “that is so wrong” posts... those are really helpful.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

DTO said:


> The withholder is just as much an offender against the marriage as the cheater.


This is biblically true. But, I have a hard time placing your husband in the "withholder" bag. You HAVE sex. Maybe it doesn't quite meet up to your expectations of being pursued, you have to be the initiator, but you HAVE sex. Many people on here don't. If they try to initiate sex, they find a partner who has had a headache for 15 years.

I think this is probably the reason for the "live with it" advice.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DTO said:


> Unfortunately, what you have posted above is not universally accepted as true. This is true even for people who adhere to some form of Christianity (despite what Scripture says). This site is very sex positive. If you go to something a little more sex neutral (like Reddit perhaps) you'll see lots of accounts of women (and some men) providing little or no sex, and sometimes not even feeling bad about it.
> 
> There's tons of excuses: it's my body, I don't really owe it to him/her, sex is not part of the marital give and take, sex is a bonus, and so on.


I understand that people feel that way, and it is a good thing that I am not and would not date and marry them. 

Here is the deal, regardless of what people say, when you are a Christian, of any kind, you have a responsibility to meet your partners sexual needs. Normal, standard sexual needs, not group sex or three ways or anything out of the mainstream. I know that is hard to define... 

Further, Any MAN OR WOMEN that would put up with their needs not being meet, I just really feel sorry for. I don't believe people should do that to themselves and they sure should not model that to their children... 

My F and I both believe this. We don't deny each other unless we are really sick, or something along those lines. 

Being tired is not really a good reason for the most part, there are extenuation circumstances of course... 

There have been many time that my F just said, I need to get laid, and I comply even if I am super tired, and she has done the same for me. Of course is it usually said more romantically but the meaning is the same...

Works for me...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

workerbee said:


> The other night we were intimate, it was wonderful for us both. I woke up feeling like an asshole and idiot, because he's this great man that I am hurting so much about something that isn't all that important. And then I realized that has been exactly what I have done for years.....tell him my needs aren't met, he meets them once and I think "All is well in my world. Nothing's wrong. Sorry I have been so hard on you honey, never mind, please forgive me " until several days later without intimacy and there we ****ing go again.
> So that's on me, mixed messages. But oxygen is only important when you aren't getting any...…


You see, this is what I have a problem with, some how YOU are wrong because you want your needs to be met, this is BS. 

I know you love him, I know he is a good guy. All that is great. 

But who in the **** said "sex" is not that important? It is SUPER important. 

You should now have to feel the way that you do. Your husband has a responsibility to you and your marriage that is the bottom line. 

He is not meeting it. I don't know how to tell you to fix this, and frankly I don't think you can. 

I know you don't want to divorce, but why should YOU or any other PERSON be forced to be unhappy about their sex lives...

There is nothing wrong with you, sorry, you are way normal... Normal in a healthy way...


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Workerbee, you say you’ve tried “everything” and you want ideas but then you quickly dismiss porn without even considering looking into it.
> 
> I guess we can get back to all the “our sex lives are so great” and “that is so wrong” posts... those are really helpful.


I am missing something here.
I can see that I have offended you and the only reason I can come up with is that I have appeared dismissive that my husband could be using porn and I have not actually investigated that as a possibility. 

If my husband were using porn it would be an easier battle. He would have desire, and it would make him selfish to not share that intimacy with me, but I would be more hopeful. I could try to play amateur porn MILF. That would be actionable intelligence. Our home computer, his cell phone are completely clean. 
I look for evidence that he's working on our marriage dynamic by his computer history, trust me, the only thing I regularly find is gun porn. And I am actually quite ok with that.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

TJW said:


> This is biblically true. But, I have a hard time placing your husband in the "withholder" bag. You HAVE sex. Maybe it doesn't quite meet up to your expectations of being pursued, you have to be the initiator, but you HAVE sex. Many people on here don't. If they try to initiate sex, they find a partner who has had a headache for 15 years.
> 
> I think this is probably the reason for the "live with it" advice.


Valid point.
Very valid.

I have been told to grieve if needed, because he does not pursue me. But he is willing, usually, to engage if I initiate. And a higher drive spouse should celebrate the lower drive spouse willingness to engage. And it's not inaccurate. 

I will never have him chase me around the kitchen. I grieved that. 
I let go of what I believe to be unreasonable expectations. 
I know that I can chase him. He doesn't mind being chased, he responds nicely when I catch him, so I should be happy.

But is it unreasonable for me to ask him to plan to intentionally choose to chase me knowing that my desire is to let him catch me. 
I know that he doesn't want to chase me, he'd rather be caught. Well, I feel exactly the same. 
Responsive desire needs something to respond to. I cannot continue to respond to chasing my own tail.

Under the high drive vs low drive dynamic, your point about being happy for a willing spouse is completely 100% on target. 

When you factor in that I am as responsive as he is, that dynamic needs to be addressed differently, imo. 
What it comes down to is that we are both 100% responsive, and it is really a miracle we have a sex life when neither want to initiate. 

Not sure if I am communicating this well.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

workerbee said:


> But is it unreasonable for me ...


Reasonable or not doesn't enter the equation. Really.

One of the first things people do here is to take up an informal vote of their expectations in the misguided notion that we should collectively have a say in the matter. 

In your case, no one thinks you are making _unreasonable _demands. But the universe is full of perfectly reasonable things that we cannot have for one reason or another. C'mon, woman, it's been two and a half decades. How much reinforcement do you need to understand that this is not within your husband's capacity, reasonable or not? We are no longer in the "how do I make this work" phase of your problem. We are in the Sean Connery "Untouchables" moment - "What are you prepared to do?".

You can ride this horse (and your husband) into the sunset for another quarter century, being angry about it, trying to fix it, rationalizing that it should be your right. And what will that get you? Another 25 years of unhappiness. Let it go, let him go, or continue to anguish until you final breath. At this point, the choice is wholly yours.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Reasonable or not doesn't enter the equation. Really.
> 
> One of the first things people do here is to take up an informal vote of their expectations in the misguided notion that we should collectively have a say in the matter.
> 
> ...


I hear ya. I'd cheer your comment if it was 5 o'clock, I will toast you later today.

It HAS been 25 years, almost. 
But he begrudgingly met with the marriage counselor 1 1/2 years ago. He begrudgingly met with the Sex Therapist.
This time it was his choice, his decision, to recently meet again with our previous marriage counselor. They have both decided that they would meet 1:1 to work on my husband's lack of effort. He says he doesn't understand why he is this way, and fully recognizes that I need more, and agrees that my requests are valid and not unreasonable.

Men go through this situation with their wives, there are articles and a **** ton of resources for that scenario.

There is very little to nothing available when the wife is in the same situation. Because nobody talks about it.....ESPECIALLY THE MEN. Who wants to be known as a man that rarely thinks about bonking their wife?

So 25 years with a problem we've only recently (last 5 years or less?) been able to define, understand and address. He's just now actually ACTIVELY willing to do his work.
Why now?

Probably because I am no longer questioning my sanity or will to live.
I've addressed the issue and thrown the problem at his feet with the full intent of walking out the door if he is unwilling to work his part.
I don't want perfection, I will take reasonable attempts.

I am in limbo. I want to be able to give positive reinforcement when there is growth without giving the false impression that no further growth is needed.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> You see, this is what I have a problem with, some how YOU are wrong because you want your needs to be met, this is BS.
> 
> I know you love him, I know he is a good guy. All that is great.
> 
> ...


I want to go down deep into the primal/primitive instincts that drive us all as sexual beings. One big difference between genders is that men hunt and women gather. As an example, there might be a guy who expresses an interest in a woman (hunts/pursues her). If she likes this guy, then, of course, she's pleased to learn he is also interested. But even if the guy were never on the woman's radar, just his expression of interest piques her interest (she wants to gather him). She becomes driven just by the fact that he is interested in her (unless there is some reason she's totally not interested in him - Omega Male, perhaps? Too Beta, perhaps? Bad breath, perhaps?). 

I've often wondered why I (and also noticed in other women) became interested in a guy after knowing he was interested in me. I now understand the hunter/gatherer aspect of our psyches is the reason. Once a man begins the chase, the woman becomes emotionally invested. I knew a guy who, when speaking about his wife, he would joke "I chased her and chased her until she caught me."

Primal instincts dictate that men need to pursue, and women need to be desired. Pursuant to those deep down wired algorithms, Workerbee is totally responsive. Her husband, on the other hand, is not a hunter. So, based on that primal component, she conforms to the imperative, but her husband doesn't. He's the total opposite, in that he is responsive like her, which is a huge fundamental disparity between them because he gets what he needs but she never does.

I know a lot of women pursue and initiate. I know guys also need to feel desired and would like their wife to initiate sometimes, and a lot of men complain here that their wife never does. I think women should initiate sometimes, but I also know that, for a lot of women, it is against our grain primitively speaking and so is hard for us to do, but has nothing to do with not desiring him. It has always been extremely hard for me to let my boyfriends, and now husband, know that I want to have sex. The few times I have, I really forced myself to do it, well, because I was horny as hell LOL (which was rare for me). But, if my husband (and no past boyfriends) never initiated, we would never have sex because it's not in me to pursue a man for intercourse. Those boyfriends would have been kicked to the curb, and so I would never have married my husband. For her entire marriage, Workerbee has had to perform against the grain of her nature and never receives the needed satisfaction derived from knowing he desires her.

It doesn't mean they never have sex because they do. It's just that sex is not important to him and is farthest from his mind until she initiates, and then he's into it. While that is the reversal of the primal algorithm that dictates gender sex roles, and also causes Workerbee incredible distress, I'm not sure it's worth suggesting divorce after all their years of marriage. I know she's not happy about that particular aspect of their marriage, but I'm not sure she's unhappy with the marriage altogether. He is the love of her life and apparently not a bad husband otherwise. I think being with someone else would just be swapping aspects in a relationship that cause displeasure and distress. A different man will more than likely pursue her sexually and initiate often, but he might be undesirable in a multitude of other areas. Nobody is perfect, dontcha know?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

workerbee said:


> Valid point.
> Very valid.
> 
> I have been told to grieve if needed, because he does not pursue me. But he is willing, usually, to engage if I initiate. And a higher drive spouse should celebrate the lower drive spouse willingness to engage. And it's not inaccurate.
> ...


Whooooa, Workerbee. Our posts are exactly the same. I wrote in Word and pasted here in response to BluesPower and didn't even see your post until after. Great minds we are!


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StarFires said:


> I want to go down deep into the primal/primitive instincts that drive us all as sexual beings. One big difference between genders is that men hunt and women gather. As an example, there might be a guy who expresses an interest in a woman (hunts/pursues her). If she likes this guy, then, of course, she's pleased to learn he is also interested. But even if the guy were never on the woman's radar, just his expression of interest piques her interest (she wants to gather him). She becomes driven just by the fact that he is interested in her (unless there is some reason she's totally not interested in him - Omega Male, perhaps? Too Beta, perhaps? Bad breath, perhaps?).
> 
> I've often wondered why I (and also noticed in other women) became interested in a guy after knowing he was interested in me. I now understand the hunter/gatherer aspect of our psyches is the reason. Once a man begins the chase, the woman becomes emotionally invested. I knew a guy who, when speaking about his wife, he would joke "I chased her and chased her until she caught me."
> 
> ...


You know this is all great. I understand it and even agree with a lot of it. 

Bottom line, you can make all the excuses for her H that you want. 

Truth is, he is lazy and he does not care about sex. He gets up and brushes his teeth, and eats some food and drinks water. 

Her needs are not important to him, Sorry WB. 

While I am maybe the typical male, I wake up every day and start thinking, "What can I do to make her happy today, what can I do to let her know how much I love her." I do it ever day. 

It is not that I do it for sex, I know I am going to have sex. I do it because she is super important to me. 

We can talk about all of the gobbably **** that we want to. He is a lazy man. 

Maybe it is his physc meds or whatever, but whatever it is he NEEDS TO FIX IT NOW...


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

StarFires said:


> I want to go down deep into the primal/primitive instincts that drive us all as sexual beings. One big difference between genders is that men hunt and women gather. As an example, there might be a guy who expresses an interest in a woman (hunts/pursues her). If she likes this guy, then, of course, she's pleased to learn he is also interested. But even if the guy were never on the woman's radar, just his expression of interest piques her interest (she wants to gather him). She becomes driven just by the fact that he is interested in her (unless there is some reason she's totally not interested in him - Omega Male, perhaps? Too Beta, perhaps? Bad breath, perhaps?).
> 
> I've often wondered why I (and also noticed in other women) became interested in a guy after knowing he was interested in me. I now understand the hunter/gatherer aspect of our psyches is the reason. Once a man begins the chase, the woman becomes emotionally invested. I knew a guy who, when speaking about his wife, he would joke "I chased her and chased her until she caught me."
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this!
It's exactly 100% truth.

You have summed up everything that I have tried so hard to explain! I think I have failed so long being able to describe the problem because I am in it. You did it for me.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!

I'm printing your post.

What joy to read the entire issue so neatly summed up!!!!

A sincere Thank You!


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> You know this is all great. I understand it and even agree with a lot of it.
> 
> Bottom line, you can make all the excuses for her H that you want.
> 
> ...


We are too much alike, you and I - so completely black and white that it's hard to exist in the shaded gray areas. But this is too close to the "just do it" mentality, and I just can't travel down that road. Yes, he needs to fix it, but he needs to find a way for it to be fixed because _just do it_ can't solve his problem.

And where did I miss about the psyche meds??? You know I got all jumbled up and run over when I first began reading?

Edited to add BluesPower's last response to me. Meant to add it with my reply back to him.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

workerbee said:


> Thank you so much for this!
> It's exactly 100% truth.
> 
> You have summed up everything that I have tried so hard to explain! I think I have failed so long being able to describe the problem because I am in it. You did it for me.
> ...


And sincerely my pleasure! You're vey welcome.
Just wondering if you saw my last reply to you?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> You know this is all great. I understand it and even agree with a lot of it.
> 
> Bottom line, you can make all the excuses for her H that you want.
> 
> ...


The funny and sad thing is he DOES wake up every day thinking about what he can do to make me happy. 
Remember that love languages book?
Btdt, got the matching face masks.
He tries to anticipate my needs in EVERY ****ING WAY EXCEPT the ****ING, lol. He buried the lead. Misses the forest for the trees.....yadda yadda yadda.

Oh, I am not letting him off the hook. 
He's culpable. 100%. But his intentions are good, and he has good will toward me. And he KNOWS intellectually what I need. He doesn't know how to translate it into action.  He sounds like he's Aspy, doesn't he? But he truly isn't. He lacks romantic and emotional intelligence in our marriage, and quite frankly, empathy in regard to those 2 unmet needs. Emotional neglect and lack of affection as a child are likely at the core, but he's strong and strangely capable in every facet of life except intimacy. He'll accept my bidding, and reciprocate in that moment. I think he's terrified to pursue, that I will see something he's hidden from me and he'll be exposed as a fraud, but wtf do I know. He just might be sexually selfish and a prick in bed. This part of his life with me is completely incongruent with what he gives to me. I'm a freaking spoiled princess except for the bedroom......and that's the only thing that I actually care about. I can pay someone else to fix my car, I can pay my own bills, hire a handyman.......I have repeatedly asked him to quit bothering to bring me coffee every morning, being pleasant and smiling at me...etc; I've asked instead for him to bend me over the desk/sofa/workbench/dryer/gun rack/table saw. Because apparently my Love Language is SEX.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

StarFires said:


> We are too much alike, you and I - so completely black and white that it's hard to exist in the shaded gray areas. But this is too close to the "just do it" mentality, and I just can't travel down that road. Yes, he needs to fix it, but he needs to find a way for it to be fixed because _just do it_ can't solve his problem.
> 
> And where did I miss about the psyche meds??? You know I got all jumbled up and run over when I first began reading?
> 
> Edited to add BluesPower's last response to me. Meant to add it with my reply back to him.


Yeah, the Just Do It half assed solves this. We've done that. It didn't suck. I was better when it first started, after years in the desert I finally found some water and shade. But it wasn't an oasis, that's maintenance sex, and it is required throughout marriage. However, it should not be all there is.

He's not on any psych meds lofl. B/P meds and trt. And occasionally viagra. He's more emotionally stable than anyone I know. A rock, strong, sweet, tender, understanding, calm, rational and easy going. He can tell you ANYTHING you ever wanted to know about WWII, any car or firearm ever made with zeal and interest. If I hold his Guns & Ammo Magazine in my hands and run around the kitchen, that ****er would chase me [email protected]


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> I think he's terrified to pursue, that I will see something he's hidden from me and he'll be exposed as a fraud, but wtf do I know.


Actually, I think you do know. You know your husband better than any person alive. You may be right about the family-of-origin lack of affection. But I tend to think fear is the deal. Somewhere, back in time, he may have pursued, failed to "catch", and it hurt him so bad that he has decided to forever eliminate this possibility.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StarFires said:


> We are too much alike, you and I - so completely black and white that it's hard to exist in the shaded gray areas. But this is too close to the "just do it" mentality, and I just can't travel down that road. Yes, he needs to fix it, but he needs to find a way for it to be fixed because _just do it_ can't solve his problem.
> 
> And where did I miss about the psyche meds??? You know I got all jumbled up and run over when I first began reading?
> 
> Edited to add BluesPower's last response to me. Meant to add it with my reply back to him.


Thanks, I think.

I don't know how old you are. I'm 56. Now, while I a have never suffered through any low sex or sexless relationships, I have had my share of hardships in my life. And my mantra is I will not be unhappy...

For me, this (sex) is not one of them. For one reason, I would not stand for it, never have and never will.

But I disagree, about just doing it. Does he or does he not brush his teeth?

It is that simple. I say this to women, and I will say the same thing about men. If he cared he would do it.

Make a list, put a note on the bathroom mirror, "Have sex tonight" Because your wife want you to...

I do a lot of things for my partner/fiancé that I may not want to do.

I take her shopping and pick out her cloths, yeah I know. Turns out I am super good a picking out women's clothing. Who knew that a guy like me could do it. I always opt for a little more cleavage, and she sometimes is to modest to go with that choice, but I have put more cleavage into her wardrobe that she had before she met me, so win win.

I actually do some planting and yard work. Not my thing, but I do it for her.

I could go on and on. The point is, set a ****ing alarm on your phone and have sex. It really is that easy...


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Thanks, I think.
> 
> I don't know how old you are. I'm 56. Now, while I a have never suffered through any low sex or sexless relationships, I have had my share of hardships in my life. And my mantra is I will not be unhappy...
> 
> ...


That's cool ****. 

I'd love it if my husband picked out my clothes. I do ask him to pick out what I should wear some days, and initially he resisted, but now he'll do it if I ask because he knows it's important to me. I don't mind asking for what I need.
I had a calendar up where we could both see, it had 2 Questions listed:
"Have you touched your wife today?" With the second, "Was it sexual?"
Every morning I answered Yes or No to both questions for the previous day.
I also did a beautiful flowsheet. Am I allowed to post pics here? It's all words, no porn lol.
I the calendar and flowsheet in mid May. After a few weeks of lackluster response, I took both down to alleviate any undue stress and pressure on him. I figured the point was well made, and I should back off. You know, like TJW has said....and that ol "Beatings will continue until morale improves".
All that did was let him think everything was fine, lol.

So we're in the final inning. 
[I hate sports]


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

workerbee said:


> View attachment 70134


Given the chance, I think my wife would have wallpapered the house with this. I found it a bit funny but probably shouldn't have.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I just think campaigning the way you do to have your needs met is unreasonable and even abusive. His needs simply don't coincide with yours, and that does not make him abnormal. You two being married doesn't mean he must submit to your sexual needs like a sex slave. 

I also think from some of the things you've said that what you seek is more validation than anything, but sex is the medium you choose to be validated. Honestly, I'm surprised you're married. That kind of validation happens pretty easily when you're dating and first working your way to having sex. Men will pursue you and work for it then, but of course, that usually doesn't last. Have you ever talked to a psychologist about why your need in this regard is so specific and conditional? (Sorry if I missed something in the middle posts) You obviously spend a lot of time dwelling on it, so it's kind of obsessive and your entitlement about it is through the roof and your lack of caring for your husband's feelings.

That little chart is pretty extreme and alarming. Your husband must be pretty passive to even entertain this kind of prodding. So maybe you ironically attracted a passive person because that's who didn't see this as a red flag, and now that is also, of course, being reflected in the bedroom. Just a thought.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Thanks, I think.
> 
> I don't know how old you are. I'm 56. Now, while I a have never suffered through any low sex or sexless relationships, I have had my share of hardships in my life. And my mantra is I will not be unhappy...
> 
> ...


Nope, nope, nope, It's not that simple. In fact, that logic is a false equivalency. I don't know if you ever read me talk about asking my husband to never ask me to give him a BJ. I absolutely HATE doing them, but he gets BJs because I love pleasuring him that way (since I'm so good at it and all LOL). But if he asked, he would never get it...ever. I don't know why that is with me. Just some weird quirk, I guess, but it surely has nothing to do with whether or not I care about him or love him. Not to mention, like Workerbee, he shows his love and that he cares about her in other ways.

You can only apply those types of hard rules and false equivalencies to yourself. You can't apply them to other people because people oftentimes have reason to be who they are. I know we do it here every day, but we can't always be right. We only share our opinions.

Now, maybe it would be a good idea for Workerbee's husband to post on this board or some other like it, so he can be told what you are saying. "Hey man, if you love your wife, you would do what she needs you to do even if you are hard-wired differently that makes it uncomfortable for you." It would be something for him to think about and would come as more of a consideration than her saying it because that also is the way people are. Coming from wifey only makes it a negligible option.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I just think campaigning the way you do to have your needs met is unreasonable and even abusive. His needs simply don't coincide with yours, and that does not make him abnormal. You two being married doesn't mean he must submit to your sexual needs like a sex slave.
> 
> I also think from some of the things you've said that what you seek is more validation than anything, but sex is the medium you choose to be validated. Honestly, I'm surprised you're married. That kind of validation happens pretty easily when you're dating and first working your way to having sex. Men will pursue you and work for it then, but of course, that usually doesn't last. Have you ever talked to a psychologist about why your need in this regard is so specific and conditional? (Sorry if I missed something in the middle posts) You obviously spend a lot of time dwelling on it, so it's kind of obsessive and your entitlement about it is through the roof and your lack of caring for your husband's feelings.
> 
> That little chart is pretty extreme and alarming. Your husband must be pretty passive to even entertain this kind of prodding. So maybe you ironically attracted a passive person because that's who didn't see this as a red flag, and now that is also, of course, being reflected in the bedroom. Just a thought.


They may not be compatible, but he married her. 

He has a responsibility to meet her sexual needs in a mono marriage.

Sorry you don't agree but MOST married people feel that way. Sex slave indeed...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StarFires said:


> Nope, nope, nope, It's not that simple. In fact, that logic is a false equivalency. I don't know if you ever read me talk about asking my husband to never ask me to give him a BJ. I absolutely HATE doing them, but he gets BJs because I love pleasuring him that way (since I'm so good at it and all LOL). But if he asked, he would never get it...ever. I don't know why that is with me. Just some weird quirk, I guess, but it surely has nothing to do with whether or not I care about him or love him. Not to mention, like Workerbee, he shows his love and that he cares about her in other ways.
> 
> You can only apply those types of hard rules and false equivalencies to yourself. You can't apply them to other people because people oftentimes have reason to be who they are. I know we do it here every day, but we can't always be right. We only share our opinions.
> 
> Now, maybe it would be a good idea for Workerbee's husband to post on this board or some other like it, so he can be told what you are saying. "Hey man, if you love your wife, you would do what she needs you to do even if you are hard-wired differently that makes it uncomfortable for you." It would be something for him to think about and would come as more of a consideration than her saying it because that also is the way people are. Coming from wifey only makes it a negligible option.


Sorry, but lots of people disagree. I am a regular guy, HD for sure, but nothing crazy,

If I am with a woman, and we are serious, she needs to meet my needs. Not saying anything crazy. But she will or she will not be with me. 

I meet her needs and she will meet mine, or we are not together. 

If you want the type of R you talk about, hey, good for you. Does not work for me, I don't really care how wonderful you are. 

We just see things different, which is fine... I am cool with it, we are not married...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> Thanks, I think.
> 
> I don't know how old you are. I'm 56. Now, while I a have never suffered through any low sex or sexless relationships, I have had my share of hardships in my life. And my mantra is I will not be unhappy...
> 
> ...


I love this!!!
I think THIS is the BEST attitude to have towards a partner, and the easiest way to ensure they are happy!
And if you find a partner willing to reciprocate this attitude towards you, then it's the closest guarantee of a forever-relationship that there is!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ensure they're happy at your own expense, certainly. That's pretty toxic, folks.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I just think campaigning the way you do to have your needs met is unreasonable and even abusive. His needs simply don't coincide with yours, and that does not make him abnormal. You two being married doesn't mean he must submit to your sexual needs like a sex slave.
> 
> I also think from some of the things you've said that what you seek is more validation than anything, but sex is the medium you choose to be validated. Honestly, I'm surprised you're married. That kind of validation happens pretty easily when you're dating and first working your way to having sex. Men will pursue you and work for it then, but of course, that usually doesn't last. Have you ever talked to a psychologist about why your need in this regard is so specific and conditional? (Sorry if I missed something in the middle posts) You obviously spend a lot of time dwelling on it, so it's kind of obsessive and your entitlement about it is through the roof and your lack of caring for your husband's feelings.
> 
> That little chart is pretty extreme and alarming. Your husband must be pretty passive to even entertain this kind of prodding. So maybe you ironically attracted a passive person because that's who didn't see this as a red flag, and now that is also, of course, being reflected in the bedroom. Just a thought.


I actually completely disagree with your opinion that she is being unreasonable and abusive. And many partners (her husband included) would be willing to be prodded to meet their partner's needs so as to not lose their relationship. 
She isn't being abusive at all - she is being clear and honest...and I admire her for it!!!


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I love this!!!
> I think THIS is the BEST attitude to have towards a partner, and the easiest way to ensure they are happy!
> And if you find a partner willing to reciprocate this attitude towards you, then it's the closest guarantee of a forever-relationship that there is!!


Here is the deal, I don't date women that are not like this. And there are a lot that got kicked to the curb, sorry but there are. 

First off, in a marriage, it is biblical. That is be bottom line. Second, I just do not care about feminism at all, in any way. 

I love woman, women are great, have any job and pay you want, great. 

If you are married to me, you are hot for me. You want to be with me. Being with me requires you to be a sexual person. 

And, here is the deal, I am no slob. I am a good looking loving man. I will take care of all of your needs, not just sexual. 

I don't hold women hostage to be with me, they are free to leave whenever they want to... 

But thanks...Lisa...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Ensure they're happy at your own expense, certainly. That's pretty toxic, folks.


So I am curious what your approach would be to not having a partner meeting your needs...would you just leave the relationship instead of be clear about what you need...?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Yeah, sex slave indeed...
Great jeepers.

Just ignoring all the gender sexual inequality insults flying around this thread, I have to say I don't like the chart either, Workerbee. But hey, it's been 25 years and the chart probably produced somewhere in the middle. You were probably already at your wit's end and not understanding why you still had to address that same issue. Just another way to bang your head without the ensuing stitches.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, I"m curious why you think only ONE of the partners gets their needs met while the other is miserable and emasculated.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> Here is the deal, I don't date women that are not like this. And there are a lot that got kicked to the curb, sorry but there are.
> 
> First off, in a marriage, it is biblical. That is be bottom line. Second, I just do not care about feminism at all, in any way.
> 
> ...


I just don't understand WHY it's so hard for so many people to generously WANT to give the person that they love what they need...it goes against everything that IS love and commitment for me...but so many people are against actual "GIVING"...as if they are betraying themselves in some way!!!
Or maybe the fact that it's just not human nature makes it so foreign...?

I don't know, but it eludes me! I've seen a true loving, giving spirit transform relationships!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, I"m curious why you think only ONE of the partners gets their needs met while the other is miserable and emasculated.


I don't! I never said (or meant) that at all!!
But really...what would your approach be...? I'm really asking, not being snarky...!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I just don't understand WHY it's so hard for so many people to generously WANT to give the person that they love what they need...it goes against everything that IS love and commitment for me...but so many people are against actual "GIVING"...as if they are betraying themselves in some way!!!
> Or maybe the fact that it's just not human nature makes it so foreign...?
> 
> I don't know, but it eludes me! I've seen a true loving, giving spirit transform relationships!!!


Why do some people like Brussels sprouts? It's a mystery of the cosmos.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Why do some people like Brussels sprouts? It's a mystery of the cosmos.


Hey...I LIKE brussel sprouts!!! Lolol!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

workerbee said:


> The funny and sad thing is he DOES wake up every day thinking about what he can do to make me happy.
> Remember that love languages book?
> Btdt, got the matching face masks.
> He tries to anticipate my needs in EVERY ****ING WAY EXCEPT the ****ING, lol. He buried the lead. Misses the forest for the trees.....yadda yadda yadda.
> ...



Wow. If you or family owned a boat shop / fish camp on a river, it just couldn't get any better.

And even without those things 😉 sounds like there are a lot of positive components in the marriage.

A lot of good things. Don't give up yet.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, I"m curious why you think only ONE of the partners gets their needs met while the other is miserable and emasculated.


Oh, and I should have added this to my first reply -- what you are trying to describe is how her husband feels, but doesn't that also exactly describe how SHE feels with him as well...?? Do you believe it's ok for HIS behavior to make HER feel "miserable and emasculated"?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I love this!!!
> I think THIS is the BEST attitude to have towards a partner, and the easiest way to ensure they are happy!
> And if you find a partner willing to reciprocate this attitude towards you, then it's the closest guarantee of a forever-relationship that there is!!


Yep, best attitude bar none. And is what the "Policy of Joint Agreement" teaches couples. But like I said, it can't come from her because spouses don't want to have to listen to each other unless it comes from a different source. So it may be helpful if her husband posted here.



LisaDiane said:


> So I am curious what your approach would be to not having a partner meeting your needs...would you just leave the relationship instead of be clear about what you need...?


I'm not sure it matters. Men don't get told this kind of crap when they post the same things Workerbee posted. She's a woman with sexual needs. She has to get told off and belittled.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't! I never said (or meant) that at all!!
> But really...what would your approach be...? I'm really asking, not being snarky...!


Well, yes, you're suggesting he perform like a $2 gigolo for her anytime she wants it, whether he is physically able or wants to or not. That's abusive. No consideration whatever for his needs or hurting his feelings or anything. 

My approach would be to get myself to a psychologist to find out why I need validation so bad that sex has to be initiated in a certain particular way and more often than most. You see, if she just wants sex more often, she can get herself off, or she could even fantasize about that she's getting it the way she wants it, which is what fantasy is for. But noooo, she has to try to coerce her husband who she professes to love to do it all her way, by pretending like he is really pursuing her, and do it when and where and how she wants it. That's not love. That's not anywhere close to love. She'd be better off paying someone to just do role play if that's what it takes to get her off. That's inconsiderate and selfish and obsessive, and it's not working for her or for him so she should get herself into therapy and see where that intense need to order someone to pursue her came from. I doubt it would even take that long. 

There's no shame in wanting sex a lot, but this lack of boundaries and the degree of obsession with it are alarming. It's not about him.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, I"m curious why you think only ONE of the partners gets their needs met while the other is miserable and emasculated.


Who in the hell said anything about that. And frankly, although I wish he was not, good grief, emasculated or not, he is not meeting his wife's needs. 

He is not damaged, his junk works. 

WHEN YOU ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP, a loving, romantic relationship you put the other person first. 

Not in a codependent way, but in a healthy way. My F and I love each other, and we love having sex with each other. 

If she did not like that, if that was not her need, she could leave. 

What are you even talking about?????


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, yes, you're suggesting he perform like a $2 gigolo for her anytime she wants it, whether he is physically able or wants to or not. That's abusive. No consideration whatever for his needs or hurting his feelings or anything.
> 
> My approach would be to get myself to a psychologist to find out why I need validation so bad that sex has to be initiated in a certain particular way and more often than most. You see, if she just wants sex more often, she can get herself off, or she could even fantasize about that she's getting it the way she wants it, which is what fantasy is for. But noooo, she has to try to coerce her husband who she professes to love to do it all her way, by pretending like he is really pursuing her, and do it when and where and how she wants it. That's not love. That's not anywhere close to love. She'd be better off paying someone to just do role play if that's what it takes to get her off. That's inconsiderate and selfish and obsessive, and it's not working for her or for him so she should get herself into therapy and see where that intense need to order someone to pursue her came from. I doubt it would even take that long.
> 
> There's no shame in wanting sex a lot, but this lack of boundaries and the degree of obsession with it are alarming. It's not about him.


You know what, now you are insulting Gigolos. That is not right. 

I charged way more than 2 dollars.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, yes, you're suggesting he perform like a $2 gigolo for her anytime she wants it, whether he is physically able or wants to or not. That's abusive. No consideration whatever for his needs or hurting his feelings or anything.
> 
> My approach would be to get myself to a psychologist to find out why I need validation so bad that sex has to be initiated in a certain particular way and more often than most. You see, if she just wants sex more often, she can get herself off, or she could even fantasize about that she's getting it the way she wants it, which is what fantasy is for. But noooo, she has to try to coerce her husband who she professes to love to do it all her way, by pretending like he is really pursuing her, and do it when and where and how she wants it. That's not love. That's not anywhere close to love. She'd be better off paying someone to just do role play if that's what it takes to get her off. That's inconsiderate and selfish and obsessive, and it's not working for her or for him so she should get herself into therapy and see where that intense need to order someone to pursue her came from. I doubt it would even take that long.
> 
> There's no shame in wanting sex a lot, but this lack of boundaries and the degree of obsession with it are alarming. It's not about him.


Maybe you are her husband. If you are, she has way more problems than not enough sex. 

What part are her needs being normal do you not get. People, OMG, even woman like to have sex. It feels good, it makes you feel closer to the person you love. 

NOTHING SHE HAS written is obsessive. 

Wow...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, yes, you're suggesting he perform like a $2 gigolo for her anytime she wants it, whether he is physically able or wants to or not. That's abusive. No consideration whatever for his needs or hurting his feelings or anything.
> 
> My approach would be to get myself to a psychologist to find out why I need validation so bad that sex has to be initiated in a certain particular way and more often than most. You see, if she just wants sex more often, she can get herself off, or she could even fantasize about that she's getting it the way she wants it, which is what fantasy is for. But noooo, she has to try to coerce her husband who she professes to love to do it all her way, by pretending like he is really pursuing her, and do it when and where and how she wants it. That's not love. That's not anywhere close to love. She'd be better off paying someone to just do role play if that's what it takes to get her off. That's inconsiderate and selfish and obsessive, and it's not working for her or for him so she should get herself into therapy and see where that intense need to order someone to pursue her came from. I doubt it would even take that long.
> 
> There's no shame in wanting sex a lot, but this lack of boundaries and the degree of obsession with it are alarming. It's not about him.


Hmm...well, I didn't get anything as drastic as what you said she is expecting from any of her posts the way you are describing here - I don't think she is trying to exclude his wants and his comfort-level as much as your reply assumes...
But you bring up something that I think you've mentioned before, that the high-drive spouse has no right to expect the low-drive spouse to meet their sexual needs, because masturbating and fantasy should be good enough to take the place of partnered sex...is that right? Because then we are fundamentally different in the way we think of what the rights and responsibilities that come with monogamy entail.

Are you ok with men using porn if their wives don't want sex...?? What if the wives don't want them to (and still don't want to give them sex)? 

And what about other, non-sexual needs that are negotiated in marriage...should all negotiating for needs being met be considered abusive, if the opposing partner doesn't want to meet them...? 

I am not sure that this is what people get married (or remain monogamous) for...that's all.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> My approach would be to get myself to a psychologist to find out why I need validation so bad that sex has to be initiated in a certain particular way and more often than most.


There’s a difference between validation and seeking to assess/reaffirm true feelings through non-verbal means. If you want your spouse to brag about how good you are in the sack or you’re on a non-stop quest to get her to orgasm... that’s validation seeking. If your spouse quits making any effort or go out of their way to reaffirm their sexual desire in a genuine way that’s a different story. Seriously, who would put up with “well I told you six years ago you were beautiful, you’re just wanting me to validate your looks.” 

Sex is, by default, validation. You can have sex and invalidate your partner as easily as you can validate them. It’s validating sexual attraction with the couple absent that your friends/roommates. Absent meaningful sex, you’re just legally-obligated friends. Having sex because you have to is validating a marital obligation not a healthy sexual desire for your partner. We signal desire everyday about a number of things to lots of people and you can tell who’s excited and who would rather be doing something else left to their own devices.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...well, I didn't get anything as drastic as what you said she is expecting from any of her posts the way you are describing here - I don't think she is trying to exclude his wants and his comfort-level as much as your reply assumes...
> But you bring up something that I think you've mentioned before, that the high-drive spouse has no right to expect the low-drive spouse to meet their sexual needs, because masturbating and fantasy should be good enough to take the place of partnered sex...is that right? Because then we are fundamentally different in the way we think of what the rights and responsibilities that come with monogamy entail.
> 
> Are you ok with men using porn if their wives don't want sex...?? What if the wives don't want them to (and still don't want to give them sex)?
> ...


Why keep posting and questioning people who continuously blow her posts and her statements out of proportion and accuse her of saying and doing things she never said or did? I'm wondering if they are deliberately being so disingenuous just because she's a woman because nearly everything stated are not in Workerbee's posts, so those pretend inferences are uncalled for. Why give them any credibility when they're not true?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I’d love to see the percentage of people that whine about a poor sex life versus the percentage of people that actually do something about it. If I ever came home to a flow chart like that, I’d run away as fast as I could. It’s so clear on this thread the people that offer sex in their relationships and the ones that don’t, just by the comments to the OP.

Anyone thinking about suicide over a divorce has to look at themselves. Why are you so weak? Likely, nothing will change after 25 years. Divorce needs to be an option on the table or you will be posting the same problems on TAM in the year 2028. Guaranteed.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

I go to gun shows with my DH. I don't really want to, but I am willing. I've even let him know there was a gun show for us to go to. I didn't begrudge him his fun because it wasn't thrilling for me, I supported him and encouraged him to go. 
Unfortunately, he wants me to tag along, and off I go, no pouting, no dragging my feet. 
I didn't tell him, 'Wow. Maybe you should seek counseling for your need for me to support you in your love of things that are shiny and go boom. You must have an unnatural need for validation that most libertarians lack. I won't play your game and validate your feelings."

I mean, DBTR, you have made a few decent comments that I actually liked, questions that I have asked myself. 
But then you go over the deep end; that tends to invalidate your previous worthwhile posts.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

StarFires said:


> Why keep posting and questioning people who continuously blow her posts and her statements out of proportion and accuse her of saying and doing things she never said or did? I'm wondering if they are deliberately being so disingenuous just because she's a woman because nearly everything stated are not in Workerbee's posts, so those pretend inferences are uncalled for. Why give them any credibility when they're not true?


Well, partly because I want @workerbee to see her negative opinion challenged, and have her explain it more to see if it might be, in fact, relevant (to workerbee), or to anyone else reading this thread.

Also, because I like to get more information to help me understand more, especially when I don't agree with someone - there are times I realize I'm wrong about my assumptions once I've gotten more details!

I don't think this poster only holds this opinion for women, I'm pretty sure I've seen her post similarly to men - it's her beliefs about HD/LD that she is expressing and that trigger her to exaggerate what she perceives is going on with the OP, I think. I don't believe she was deliberately being contentious, just maybe sensitive.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> I’d love to see the percentage of people that whine about a poor sex life versus the percentage of people that actually do something about it. If I ever came home to a flow chart like that, I’d run away as fast as I could. It’s so clear on this thread the people that offer sex in their relationships and the ones that don’t, just by the comments to the OP.
> 
> Anyone thinking about suicide over a divorce has to look at themselves. Why are you so weak? Likely, nothing will change after 25 years. Divorce needs to be an option on the table or you will be posting the same problems on TAM in the year 2028. Guaranteed.


Yeah, I was initially very pleased with myself over the flowchart. It was like sex for dummies, I was half tongue in cheek, half completely serious. I'm not proud, but I am genuinely trying and authentic as I can be.

I'm not weak anymore.
I'm not confused anymore.
The consideration of suicide is not a current issue, although it's not wrong for me to say it is difficult to consider going on in life without my husband......it's also fair to say that I cannot continue forever as we are.....the pain is equal. People do drastic things to avoid pain, it's a powerful motivator. That's why I do the things that I do, and sometimes my choices are stupid.

So my past thoughts of suicide were completely wrong and weak. No one will disagree with that.

But my flowchart wasn't weak. That was proactive. Maybe in your face and offensive, but proactive and the opposite of weak.
I can't be weak, we all agree. 
But if I am too strong, I'm offensive. 

I've navigated these waters with polite conversations, yelling, diagrams, blogs, books, counseling and sex therapy. I'm not weak.
Stupid, maybe.
A *****, likely at times

No one has discussed the daily calendar. 
If my needs are ignored, when pray tell is a good time to bring it up?
And how would you have me do so?
What is strong, but not TOO strong?
Not TOO offensive?

Some people have a calendar, initiate sex, and when the spouse says 'no' they place a big red X on that day. You see enough red X's, and the gatekeeper can't exactly argue there's a problem. 
Or is that offensive as well?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

workerbee said:


> Yeah, I was initially very pleased with myself over the flowchart. It was like sex for dummies, I was half tongue in cheek, half completely serious. I'm not proud, but I am genuinely trying and authentic as I can be.
> 
> I'm not weak anymore.
> I'm not confused anymore.
> The consideration of suicide is not a current issue, although it's not wrong for me to say it is difficult to consider going on in life without my husband......it's also fair to say that I cannot continue forever as we are.....the pain is equal. People do drastic things to avoid pain, it's a powerful motivator. That's why I do the things that I do, and sometimes my choices are stupid.


NO NO NO...I haven't seen anything "stupid" at all from you!!!!!! I think the flowchart is FINE - it helped you sort out how you felt, and what you needed!!!

I think you have a fantastic grasp of what is happening in your marriage, what your needs are, and HOW they need to be met - you should feel PROUD of all the progress you've made and the fact that you are able to give such clear, honest, direct information to your husband! Everything I've read from you inspires and impresses me!!!

YOU are doing FINE...even GOOD!


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, partly because I want @workerbee to see her negative opinion challenged, and have her explain it more to see if it might be, in fact, relevant (to workerbee), or to anyone else reading this thread.
> 
> Also, because I like to get more information to help me understand more, especially when I don't agree with someone - there are times I realize I'm wrong about my assumptions once I've gotten more details!
> 
> I don't think this poster only holds this opinion for women, I'm pretty sure I've seen her post similarly to men - it's her beliefs about HD/LD that she is expressing and that trigger her to exaggerate what she perceives is going on with the OP, I think. I don't believe she was deliberately being contentious, just maybe sensitive.


Don't think I was challenging you because I didn't intend to. I just think exaggerating and falsely accusing are disingenuous and can't be explained, so why question or challenge or expect cogent exchange?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

workerbee said:


> Yeah, I was initially very pleased with myself over the flowchart. It was like sex for dummies, I was half tongue in cheek, half completely serious. I'm not proud, but I am genuinely trying and authentic as I can be.
> 
> I'm not weak anymore.
> I'm not confused anymore.
> ...


You almost sound a wee bit defensive. With every fiber of my being I hate they've made you feel that way because you don't deserve to be put on the defense. You've done nothing wrong.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

No, I intentionally chose to remove that flowchart and calendar because it didn't need to be staring him in the face every day he walked in the bedroom. 
I felt it was a good point for a short time, but harmful if extnded. It didn't help, but leaving it out would've been rubbing his nose in what he hasn't done.
It's screwed up, but it feels like divorce would be less detrimental to him than the flowsheet. 
That's kinda where DBTR made a few decent points. 
I guess I am still conflicted obviously.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Whoa TJW... this is harsh don't you think.
> 
> It is a married man's job to meet his wife's sexual need and her his. What are her options.
> 
> ...


She doesn’t just want to have sex. She wants him, a LD man to initiate and do it in a way that makes HER feel desired and loved and wanted. That’s a tall order. 
You can’t compare your preggo wife who probably Initiated and let you know she wanted sex, to a LD man with responsive desire to expect him to initiate with his very angry and obviously unsatisfied wife. That’s insane.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Well OP, if you find a solution to this problem without divorce and meeting a HD person, you will be one of the wealthiest people on the planet.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> She doesn’t just want to have sex. She wants him, a LD man to initiate and do it in a way that makes HER feel desired and loved and wanted. That’s a tall order.
> You can’t compare your preggo wife who probably Initiated and let you know she wanted sex, to a LD man with responsive desire to expect him to initiate with his very angry and obviously unsatisfied wife. That’s insane.


So disingenuous and unfair. She never said anything like ....
_"and do it in a way that makes HER feel desired and loved and wanted"_
She only said she needs him to initiate. That he did it at all would be great. She adds no specific instructions or qualifiers to her request. There is nothing insane about it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

workerbee said:


> I go to gun shows with my DH. I don't really want to, but I am willing. I've even let him know there was a gun show for us to go to. I didn't begrudge him his fun because it wasn't thrilling for me, I supported him and encouraged him to go.
> Unfortunately, he wants me to tag along, and off I go, no pouting, no dragging my feet.
> I didn't tell him, 'Wow. Maybe you should seek counseling for your need for me to support you in your love of things that are shiny and go boom. You must have an unnatural need for validation that most libertarians lack. I won't play your game and validate your feelings."
> 
> ...


Sorry, I just can't equate going to a gun show with demanding your husband pretend to pursue you for sex when the truth is you are pursuing him relentlessly.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StarFires said:


> So disingenuous and unfair. She never said anything like ....
> _"and do it in a way that makes HER feel desired and loved and wanted"_
> She only said she needs him to initiate. That he did it at all would be great. She adds no specific instructions or qualifiers to her request. There is nothing insane about it.


What I mean is it’s against his predisposition to do what she wants. Like many men in here who want their wives to initiate and be enthusiastic, it’s unfortunately against their nature.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sorry, I just can't equate going to a gun show with demanding your husband pretend to pursue you for sex when the truth is you are pursuing him relentlessly.


In defense of her, I understand where she is coming from. 
To make a relationship work we have to do things we don’t necessarily want to do for the greater good of the relationship. And we should all put on our big boy and girl pants and do it with a happy face. 
She expects the same in return. 

The problem is, he is just a low effort and selfish man.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think as far as selfishness goes, she's got him beat.

I just don't see how pressuring someone to pretend to pay them attention when they don't want to is anything but a farce. I think there's something wrong that that could actually be fulfilling to her. Seems to me a small amount of genuine attention and affection is worth a lot more than an infinite amount of pretend.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> What I mean is it’s against his predisposition to do what she wants. Like many men in here who want their wives to initiate and be enthusiastic, it’s unfortunately against their nature.


And the advice I would give is the same - 

If enthusiastic initiation is the greatest sexual headache in your marriage, congratulations. You can presumably have within reason all of the sex you want, when you want it, with a partner who will engage, perform, and actually enjoy it. Your "burden" is to be the one to pull the trigger.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think as far as selfishness goes, she's got him beat.


Explain why. Because she won’t drop it?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

StarFires said:


> Don't think I was challenging you because I didn't intend to. I just think exaggerating and falsely accusing are disingenuous and can't be explained, so why question or challenge or expect cogent exchange?


Oh NO!!! I don't! (but for the record, I don't mind being challenged at all, it doesn't offend me)

And you can see I didn't get any exchange with her, she didn't answer me...which is perfectly ok too.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think as far as selfishness goes, she's got him beat.
> 
> I just don't see how pressuring someone to pretend to pay them attention when they don't want to is anything but a farce. I think there's something wrong that that could actually be fulfilling to her. Seems to me a small amount of genuine attention and affection is worth a lot more than an infinite amount of pretend.


I would say that the reason you think that is probably because you have rarely been on the receiving end of "very little" of something that meant a great deal to you. Because your only empathy is for her husband.

And she isn't getting "a small amount" of anything that she needs - she is getting NOTHING from him.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Explain why. Because she won’t drop it?


She just thinks her needs are more important than his. Not only won't she drop it, but she's turned it into this big obsessive thing. And her needs are very particular.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh NO!!! I don't! (but for the record, I don't mind being challenged at all, it doesn't offend me)
> 
> And you can see I didn't get any exchange with her, she didn't answer me...which is perfectly ok too.


I'm looking back and trying to see what exact question you asked me?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I would say that the reason you think that is probably because you have rarely been on the receiving end of "very little" of something that meant a great deal to you. Because your only empathy is for her husband.
> 
> And she isn't getting "a small amount" of anything that she needs - she is getting NOTHING from him.


My point is you can't get it by asking him to fake it. And everything she's done is probably pushing him farther away and likely diminishing his manhood more than encouraging it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

So, @workerbee, just to round-trip on the post-

Other than receive validation that you're not crazy, that your needs are not necessarily unreasonable but are also not likely to get met anytime soon, have you received any advice that will actually help solve your problem? 

What are you prepared to do?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Cletus said:


> And the advice I would give is the same -
> 
> If enthusiastic initiation is the greatest sexual headache in your marriage, congratulations. You can presumably have within reason all of the sex you want, when you want it, with a partner who will engage, perform, and actually enjoy it. Your "burden" is to be the one to pull the trigger.


True.

It hasn't always been this way, it was difficult to get here, but we are here.

There has been growth, for both of us, and yes, he has grown more than I, because he is no longer a Gatekeeper. There has been progress. 

But if I initiate, I cannot respond.

I have to fake initiation, because I am not spontaneous with desire [usually].
Well if I can do the heavy lifting, can't he from time to time?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

workerbee said:


> I'm looking back and trying to see what exact question you asked me?


Lol!! Not YOU silly, DownBytheRiver!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I can only speak from a women’s point of view. But it’s hard when you have HD, or let’s be honest normal drive and needs and your partner has none. It’s tricky because men need to feel like men in order to want to have sex. Stress decreases men’s desires. 
But when your a women with unmet sexual needs you feel bad about yourself, you don’t feel desired and it affects your self esteem. 
So it’s really freakin annoying when you have to walk on eggshells and put him up extra and stroke his ego to make him feel like a man, it’s really degrading sometimes the things we have to do, In order to make them feel like a man just so they will have sex with us. 

But yes, she probably is driving him away and he probably feels emasculated. But that’s about years and years and years of her feeling like crap and pretty ****ty herself.

And that’s where resentment comes in. So people may think she sound aggressive and mean and harsh and relentless... and I agree she does sound like that. BUT that’s because she is angry and resentful. Her feelings didn’t happen over night. It was years in the making.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

workerbee said:


> Well if I can do the heavy lifting, can't he from time to time?


Apparently not. Why do you keep asking a question to which you already know the answer?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> So it’s really freakin annoying when you have to walk on eggshells and put him up extra and stroke his ego to make him feel like a man, it’s really degrading sometimes the things we have to do, In order to make them feel like a man just so they will have sex with us.


You need to find a better caliber man.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I can only speak from a women’s point of view. But it’s hard when you have HD, or let’s be honest normal drive and needs and your partner has none. It’s tricky because men need to feel like men in order to want to have sex. Stress decreases men’s desires.
> But when your a women with unmet sexual needs you feel bad about yourself, you don’t feel desired and it affects your self esteem.
> So it’s really freakin annoying when you have to walk on eggshells and put him up extra and stroke his ego to make him feel like a man, it’s really degrading sometimes the things we have to do, In order to make them feel like a man just so they will have sex with us.
> 
> But yes, she probably is driving him away and he probably feels emasculated. But that’s about years and years and years of her feeling like crap and pretty ****ty herself.


Yes, as a higher drive woman we tend to internalize this.

If he feels emasculated it isn't because I have withheld love and affection.
Since there's no technical term for female version of emasculating, I will just say his lack of affection is anti-feminizing.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

workerbee said:


> Yes, as a higher drive woman we tend to internalize this.
> 
> If he feels emasculated it isn't because I have withheld love and affection.
> Since there's no technical term for female version of emasculating, I will just say his lack of affection is anti-feminizing.


Exactly!! 


But here is the thing... is his lack of drive due to feeling “ emasculated”. My guess is no. My guess is, he has always been like this and it has nothing to do with you. 

Men who lose their drive because they feel emasculated typically go to porn and masterbate. Or cheat. 

Does he say he has needs that aren’t met? Or does he say he is happy with his sex life and all his needs are met? 
The problem is when only one person has unmet needs. Because then, there is no leverage.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Apparently not. Why do you keep asking a question to which you already know the answer?


Touche.

He's working 1:1 with our counselor, I've changed, I've seen him change, so it's possible. 
It's not like he's saying No, I won't do this. He's saying he's trying, and give him a chance to work on it. 
Yes, I have heard those words before. But he wasn't actively working with anyone when he said that. I trust the counselor, so I am as hopeful as I can be given the situation.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> Exactly!!
> 
> 
> But here is the thing... is his lack of drive due to feeling “ emasculated”. My guess is no. My guess is, he has always been like this and it has nothing to do with you.
> ...


EXACTLY. 
He thinks everything is always fine, great, he's happy, content and satisfied. 
He denies fervently he has any unmet need. Nothing.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

workerbee said:


> EXACTLY.
> He thinks everything is always fine, great, he's happy, content and satisfied.
> He denies fervently he has any unmet need. Nothing.


Ah that puts you in a tough spot. I’m sorry. Some people have such low needs that they become low effort, and then they view you with normal needs as “impossible to please”, “never happy”, and “high maintenance” and a lot of work. Which then in turn makes you feel like your hard to love, and not worth the effort. 

I’ve been there, and I’ve felt pretty ****ty about myself because of it. I just hope that you are doing something that helps your mental and emotional state so you don’t have decrease self esteem. It’s a good way to go into depression if your not careful. Remember to take care of yourself while he takes care of himself.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@workerbee 

Let's change the perspective for a minute. For this discussion, let's assume these facts:
1) You are High Drive, responsive desire
2) Your hubby is also 100% responsive desire
3) You want him to "meet your needs" but don't really want to tell him out loud what to do, because that doesn't meet your needs. 
4) Your hubby has had low testosterone and ED
5) You have been a gatekeeper and had climax issues
6) You have dealt with your sexual frustration by considering divorce, having an affair, being voluntarily committed, attempting suicide, combining porn and masturbation, and drinking to numbness
7) You made that "Have You Touched Your Wife" flow chart 

So let's reverse roles. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

How would you feel...what would you think...if your hubby was High Drive/responsive and you were Low Drive/responsive and even though he KNEW that the way you get turned on is by having something physical get started AND THEN you respond by getting turned on...he was constantly prodding and prodding and prodding and prodding you to meet his needs the way he wants it, when he wants it, how HE wants it not the way that pleases you? 

Before you get too defensive, just put yourself there for a minute. I think it would be human nature to just get tired of being pushed and pushed and pushed to do what is not in your heart. I mean, in real life your husband has had low T, he has had erection difficulties, he responses the most when someone powerfully desires him, and yet that goes agains the "typical societal script" so he never gets what he needs either! He never gets that feeling of "Wow someone knows that I respond to being lusted after and accepts me for who I am and wants me the way that I am!!" Can you see how powerful that would be: accepting him and his sexuality as he is?

In addition, again putting the shoe on the other foot, how would you feel if your husband kept threatening divorce, attempted suicide, fell into porn and masturbation, and drank himself numb? I get it--those are the actions of someone in deep pain--but step outside your own self for a minute and see if you can't have some compassion for your partner. Those kind of actions do demonstrate your pain, but they also demonstrate in big, bold, red, capital letters that he is so unwanted you have to harm yourself. For a person who responds sexually to a powerful desire, that is the antithesis of being powerfully desired! It is the equivalent of being so UNwanted and UNdesired that you would rather die! 

Now I'm not saying your needs are unreasonable, or that it's unreasonable to want your desires met. But as much as you want him to "chase you" and initiate, HE WANTS THE SAME THING. It's not like he's saying "I never, ever want sex" but rather that the way he gets started and the way he stays turned on is by knowing that YOU want HIM. But you are so focused on getting what you need and demanding that he do to you what he wishes you'd do to him, that it's like you are missing the giant scar you are carving. 

Instead of looking at him like the penis that can't please you, what if you looked at him like a man whom you like...whom you care about...who is a very good man and friend...and try putting yourself in his shoes. He is a man with responsive desire, and society says men are "supposed to be" blahblahblah. Well...he isn't. He is who he is, and you know what? He is hurting too. Maybe he would be able to think of your needs a bit easier if he could see that you also thought of his needs and treated him with loving compassion instead of sexual demands.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Not to muddy the waters too much, but I have to ask:

If you are HIGH drive, you want sex and think about having it and want to have it, right? Isn't that actually a _spontaneous drive/desire_ (and not responsive desire--- which means you aren't really thinking about having sex but when someone else initiates you do get aroused)?

High drive: you have a sex drive and want sex, all on your own. You don't need someone else initiating to make you THINK about wanting and having sex.

It doesn't sound like OP is responsive desire. At all.

It sounds like she is most DEFINITELY high drive, and isn't happy merely having sex with her husband but also has to have him initiate and chase her around, too.

Like Affaircare said, it does not leave much room for him to be him.

But no, OP isn't responsive desire.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> She doesn’t just want to have sex. She wants him, a LD man to initiate and do it in a way that makes HER feel desired and loved and wanted. That’s a tall order.
> You can’t compare your preggo wife who probably Initiated and let you know she wanted sex, to a LD man with responsive desire to expect him to initiate with his very angry and obviously unsatisfied wife. That’s insane.


I stand by every single thing that I have written on this thread. You, IMHO, should meet your spouses sexual needs, not saying you should have sex 18 times a day. I am talking about in the range of normal. 

I have and do that for the women I am/have been with, and I expect the same from them. 

The difference is that OP's husband is LD, which sounds closer to asexual to me, and he gets a pass...


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Not to muddy the waters too much, but I have to ask:
> 
> If you are HIGH drive, you want sex and think about having it and want to have it, right? Isn't that actually a _spontaneous drive/desire_ (and not responsive desire--- which means you aren't really thinking about having sex but when someone else initiates you do get aroused)?
> 
> ...


During perimenopause I WAS HD.
I have been HD during different times in our marriage. I currently am not. I consider myself HD than my husband, because I can recall the memory of being Higher Drive and that's what I do, I recall and use muscle memory to get myself interested knowing once we get going, it'll be fabulous. Usually anyway. 
It was only my HD during perimenopause that gave me the impetus to improve our marriage bed. 
At my core, I am responsive.


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## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Hey...I LIKE brussel sprouts!!! Lolol!


Me too, smothered in loads of butter. ;-)


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I stand by every single thing that I have written on this thread. You, IMHO, should meet your spouses sexual needs, not saying you should have sex 18 times a day. I am talking about in the range of normal.
> 
> I have and do that for the women I am/have been with, and I expect the same from them.
> 
> The difference is that OP's husband is LD, which sounds closer to asexual to me, and he gets a pass...


I agree 100% I think spouses should try to meet their partners needs as well. 
I understand her frustration. I also can imagine what it’s like to feel exhausted trying to make someone happy and they still complain.

This dynamic just doesn’t work unless her husband wants to met her needs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*workerbee,*

A lot of the problems in marriage are caused by not meeting one's spouse's needs in a way that the spouse understands.

It seems that your issue is that "Physical Touch" is your love language. You are not asking your husband to do anything that is unreasonable. You are asking him to touch you in a loving manner at times and to initiate sex sometimes. These are very reasonable things for you to ask for. These are two simple things that he could easily do. He chooses not to.

You have tried to tell him what you need. He chooses to go out of his way to not meet your needs for physical touch. It would be reasonable to think that his refusal to not meet your need for physical touch is purposeful, a passive aggressive behavior.

Here's the problem. You have told him over and over. He does not care enough to meet your need your needs. You might as well stop telling him. Doing so just frustrates you further. Then you need to decide what you want to do.

You can choose to stay in your marriage and learn to live with things the way they are.
Or you leave your marriage. You still will not get your need for physical touch met if you leave the marriage, but it also won't such a pressing issue. You may or may not find someone else.
Here's a link to a book that talks about love languages...

*The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts*


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@workerbee,

Sorry this has been your life. Your situation has me thinking about mine, how it has evolved, and how I might have handled it differently. There are enough similarities, I can only imagine it's been painful for you. You have my sympathy.

It's your thread, and not a place to discuss my situation. But if you're interested, this will give you some idea of where I'm coming from:


me: early 50s, non-zero-maybe-high-drive
her: mid-fifties, zero-drive plus an anxious aversion
22 years of struggling in marriage, talking seriously of divorce, sleeping in separate rooms for last 8 months, zero touch or affection 
I've gone from wanting her to change, wanting her to do things she's not inclined to do hoping it will make me feel loved, to realizing, by now, any change in behavior she could materialize would just be done out of a desire to preserve her lifestyle and avoid the change and uncertainty of divorce.... and that is not going to make me feel loved.
Providing her insight into how hard this has been for me, and making it clear what I need from her, has never been helpful. Sometimes it seemed to have backfired, and done permanent damage to how she feels about me.
I want to make clear:

I think your needs are important, valid as anyone's. Similar to mine. It's alright to want our partners to meet our needs.
At the same time, my life is my own. I have no useful claim on anyone's life. If I want to get my needs met, I'm going to have to find and co-create the situations where that will happen.
Empathy is powerful. In a relationship, it's you're only chance. It's also scary, because sometimes it forces us to see that our behavior had an impact on someone we care very deeply for.
IME, the things that feel uncomfortable hearing are probably the most relevant. Not necessarily 100% correct. But relevant. THERE be dragons.
Here are some thoughts that came to mind as I just finished reading your thread. As they say, take what you want and leave the rest.

If you have been at this for years, then maybe you've not yet met the real problem(s). I think maybe there are two less than conscious struggles going on. One in you. One in him.

First, your husband's:

He knows exactly what your need is here. You want to be wanted, desired, and initiating sex with you would make you feel that.
Initiating sex is a simple enough thing. The fact he can do so many other "good things" for you, but can't seem to do this one thing -- well, there must be a reason!
Can he articulate what that reason is? Apparently not. He might not even be consciously aware of the reason(s) behind is behavior.
Ever known anyone to be chronically late, experience consequences because of it, but somehow seem to be powerless to change their behavior? What's hard about arriving on time? After a certain point in life, I tend to think a chronically late person is getting something out of being late, something out of the self-sabotage.
Personal anecdote:
I think my wife is psychologically blocked from meeting my need for physical touch and intimacy (Just a hug would be be nice, or not moving away if i sit next to her on the couch), precisely because that is what I am seeking from her. Not because it's a challenging time-consuming thing. It's not about the thing -- it's about what the thing means to me. It's passive. And, aggressive. It's passive aggressive. I think at some level it's not something she consciously chose to "be". But, it is going to be up to her to figure it out and fix it (not going to happen). And, it's a fact of life that I can do things that make it even less likely for her to address it. I'm sure I have, and can tell you some... but I digress.

You know, another poster mentioned a dislike for doing a particular sexual act, but will if she thinks her partner desires it. But, if it is asked for or demanded, then she won't.
Even in the mundane non-sexual realm, I see how a simple dynamic interferes with everyone doing what needs to be done. I see it in my self, and in my kids -- if I'm told to do something, or if I demand my kids do something -- then it sometimes makes it all that more difficult to do. People don't like to be pushed. People want to be able to choose things. Maybe acquiescing to a demand or a request feels like one is implicitly endorsing the other claims associated with that demand or request.

Second, possible unconscious struggle in you:

I hope this doesn't offend you, but just food for thought:

Many people, some on this thread, would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. Why do you suppose you keep trying to get your needs met in this relationship?
Why is it so important that it be HIM that will be the one to meet your needs?
Have you ever caught yourself sabotaging his efforts to make an improvement? (I have caught myself sabotaging attempts my wife and I have made. (I've noticed her do more of the same, of course. )
Do you think you deserve to have your needs met? Do you feel it in your bones that you deserve it? Or, deep down, do you fear that maybe you don't deserve it, and so this is all that you'll get, and you'll need to learn to live with it, and be unhappy the rest of your life?
Have you ever thought about how your needs were met or not met, as a child.
If this struggle has been your life for a couple of decades now, do you think maybe it's significance to you, to your subconscious, is bigger and more complex than it appears on the surface?
Book recommendations:

Stop Doing that ****, by Gary Bishop
Richard Schwartz's book about Internal Family Systems, applied to romantic relationships, titled "You are the One You've Been Waiting For"
No More Mr. Nice Guy
Maybe initially skip the first few chapters , the ones that emphasize the pathology of the so-called Nice Guy, and start with the chapters that explain what the Nice Guy can do differently to create a life where his needs get met.
I realize you're not a guy. I'm not aware of a No More Ms. Nice Girl book. So, you'll have to use your imagination.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> it feels like divorce would be less detrimental to him than the flowsheet.


I respectfully disagree with this feeling. I think the fact is, a divorce will crucify him. It will be the ultimate rejection. Because, I also think fear of rejection plays a major role in his unwillingness to initiate. The reason, in my mind, that he wants you to initiate is that it gets him over the "hurdle" that you might not want him. Consider that the "heavy lifting" is, quite likely, too heavy for him. He doesn't have that HD to enable him to jump the hurdle.

Again, I'm giving him an A+ for seeking help and working with counsel on it. Around here, we read lots of stories in which the LD partner just doesn't give a carpenter's damn. You husband is obviously not one of those people.

Personally, I think he's a "keeper" - God knows what you are going to marry into if you leave.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Complete fair and accurate.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

TJW said:


> I respectfully disagree with this feeling. I think the fact is, a divorce will crucify him. It will be the ultimate rejection. Because, I also think fear of rejection plays a major role in his unwillingness to initiate. The reason, in my mind, that he wants you to initiate is that it gets him over the "hurdle" that you might not want him. Consider that the "heavy lifting" is, quite likely, too heavy for him. He doesn't have that HD to enable him to jump the hurdle.
> 
> Again, I'm giving him an A+ for seeking help and working with counsel on it. Around here, we read lots of stories in which the LD partner just doesn't give a carpenter's damn. You husband is obviously not one of those people.
> 
> Personally, I think he's a "keeper" - God knows what you are going to marry into if you leave.



Complete fair and accurate.
I at least have the memory of having spontaneous desire, that helps.

Last night he told me he was amorous and wanted to be intimate.
I was shocked, because he rarely is without my physical touch first, and I doubted him.
I also didn't find myself impressed with that initiation. It wasn't enough to compel me to get off the couch and go to the bedroom. I wanted a reason, a responsive feeling that made me wanna jump off the couch and have fun.
I realize that isn't fair. But it took me a few minutes to process my lackluster response to his somewhat bland initiation. It's not fair to him, he's trying and objectively I absolutely see this. And he is a good man, I am trying to be fair and yet honest about my crappy response.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts, they are considered in my mind, and I want to do work on myself as well.

I'm at work today and cannot really respond to posts, but I will at some point.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Props to you OP, for being so open here... including the flowchart; even though it made me wince. You have expressed things that you have learned that you would not repeat now. Often we need to go through the thing to learn and often adjust as a result. And really, props to your husband for currently having IC and as raised by EleGirl, it is reasonable to consider the with-holding of affection as being passive-aggressive.

Thing is, what do you do from here while he is fresh on this IC path of potential? 
Is there a time-frame you give the marriage? 



Cletus said:


> Why do some people like Brussels sprouts? It's a mystery of the cosmos.


They are particularly delicious with gravy.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

workerbee said:


> Complete fair and accurate.
> I at least have the memory of having spontaneous desire, that helps.
> 
> Last night he told me he was amorous and wanted to be intimate.
> I was shocked, because he rarely is without my physical touch first, and I doubted him.


So maybe you need to start trusting him.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Not offended... If hubby is sharper with technology and using the private browsing function you might never find evidence... you might want to up your game per Elegirl and try a keylogger.

Sorry, but my suspicion is that he is secretly meeting his needs and he is also aware that he is hurting you and for some reason is ok with that. I say that because he gives you just barely enough... like he’s stringing you along. He also seems a bit over the top in trying to be a good hubby otherwise.

Men all know the game here... if we love our wives we pursue them... just like bringing flowers/candy on St. Valentine’s Day. “Woo and pursue” is part of the job description.

Seems a bit malicious and just completely contrary to how 99% of men I know feel about sex.. that’s all. Otherwise, could it be that he was sexually abused or something... there’s just got to be more to the story here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

workerbee said:


> Last night he told me he was amorous and wanted to be intimate.
> 
> I was shocked, because he rarely is without my physical touch first, and I doubted him.
> 
> I also didn't find myself impressed with that initiation. It wasn't enough to compel me to get off the couch and go to the bedroom. I wanted a reason, a responsive feeling that made me wanna jump off the couch and have fun.


Last night you reinforced for him that there is no reason to try at all because you will not accept his efforts.

I'm training a puppy right now. When he makes a good effort to do what I ask of him, he gets a treat and an enthusiastic "good boy". In my experience humans are often very similar. If you discourage their small attempts they will stop trying.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I’d go a bit further — it’s like reinforcing “there is reason to NOT try” — rejection hurts.

Something to consider, maybe that rejection by you is the unconscious part of your brain’s way of perpetuating the status quo, because even positive change is scary to a part of you. 

I know that doesn’t make sense — I truly believe you have been suffering and on the whole would be much relieved if things changed. But, what I have come to believe, some of the “**** we do” is driven by subconscious parts of us to keep our world predictable and compatible with our model of ourselves, others, and the world, protecting only one particular hurting part of our inner selves — with consequences for the whole of ourself.

Might consider telling him that you appreciated his effort, and own the fact you rejected his attempt to give you what you want, and that you are sorry. I mean, if that is how you feel.

Neither of you should expect perfection while trying to make changes, but if it is going to work, you are going to have to be supportive of each other’s efforts, and vulnerable enough to follow up and say when we wish we would have reacted differently.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> Last night you reinforced for him that there is no reason to try at all because you will not accept his efforts.
> 
> I'm training a puppy right now. When he makes a good effort to do what I ask of him, he gets a treat and an enthusiastic "good boy". In my experience humans are often very similar. If you discourage their small attempts they will stop trying.


Uhmm, I apologize, I am at work and apparently not clear.

Last night I thanked him for telling me he was amorous and told him I initially doubted that, and I was glad to hear him share that. I also said that I wanted to want, but wasn't yet there, could he please elaborate a bit so I would want to jump off the couch and have some fun.
And he did, and we went and it was very hot.

I am learning, and I am trying.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> I am learning, and I am trying.


You now get the A+.

Galatians 6:9 (KJV)

_*And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. *_

May God add His blessing to you and your husband, and I trust His promise. Please join me.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> I’d go a bit further — it’s like reinforcing “there is reason to NOT try” — rejection hurts.
> 
> Something to consider, maybe that rejection by you is the unconscious part of your brain’s way of perpetuating the status quo, because even positive change is scary to a part of you.
> 
> ...


You are right.

And I do want to clarify before I finish my 1st glass of wine...work was in-****ing-sane.....

He told me he was amorous and wanted to be intimate, did I want to be intimate. 
I didn't.
I did not immediately reply, I was silent trying to process my reaction before I responded. 
After realizing the two issues, I told him what I stated above. 
That my initial reaction was to doubt he felt amorous....did he actually feel spontaneous desire? Was he horny? He verbally confirmed...
I then explained how I really wanted to want to get off the couch, but how easy it would be to stay right there and continue to relax....[I was thinking it wasn't a good response from me, but I still wanted more....not "just do it, you'll get into it once you start...." so I asked him to elaborate what he was thinking/feeling so that my brain could engage and I would enjoy the anticipation of leaving the couch for our bedroom....
He gave me reasons to get up and move my arse.
We had a really good time. 
We generally do when we get started. 
As Tom Petty said, starting is the hardest part. 

I have a part to play, and I really can see he's trying. That's helping me want to continue to fix this. 

He hasn't always made an effort, but he is now.

I am hopeful.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

workerbee said:


> I go to gun shows with my DH. I don't really want to, but I am willing. I've even let him know there was a gun show for us to go to. I didn't begrudge him his fun because it wasn't thrilling for me, I supported him and encouraged him to go.
> Unfortunately, he wants me to tag along, and off I go, no pouting, no dragging my feet.
> I didn't tell him, 'Wow. Maybe you should seek counseling for your need for me to support you in your love of things that are shiny and go boom. You must have an unnatural need for validation that most libertarians lack. I won't play your game and validate your feelings."


FWIW, I completely agree. You either support your spouse's interests graciously and meet them where they are at, or you do not. You either consider your spouse's wants and needs equal to your own, or you do not. And actions, not words, show where your heart is on this.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> She doesn’t just want to have sex. She wants him, a LD man to initiate and do it in a way that makes HER feel desired and loved and wanted. That’s a tall order.


Yes it is a tall order. But it is doable, and I don't think her expectations are unreasonable. She merely wants him to consider wants and needs equal to her own. In my opinion, he needs to apply himself and simply put in the effort to stretch himself and come out of his comfort zone, in order to meet his wife's interests like she does for him.

How does he start this process? By:

First, by understanding - I mean truly, deep-down accepting, that her wants and needs matter as much as his. Yes it probably will be uncomfortable, but that's what needed to grow sometimes. And the goal is not to keep him comfortable and stagnant; it is to support his wife and their marriage by through growth and a bigger perspective.

Second, by letting go of the notion that sex is not subject to the same give and take as other marital conflicts. That is a learned concept, not instinctual - and if it can learned then it can be unlearned.

What strikes me is that much of the advice the OP is getting ignores the fact that her and her husband aren't coming at this issue from two different but equally valid perspectives. Right now she is doing by far most of the heavy lifting. She's only asking him to give in less than she's already done for years now.

If he can't see his way to working on himself and closing the gap, then you need to question how good of a partner he really is.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sorry, I just can't equate going to a gun show with demanding your husband pretend to pursue you for sex when the truth is you are pursuing him relentlessly.


And not seeing that is part of the problem with the advice being tossed around.

Don't talk about sex and gun shows. It's his needs and her needs - regardless of the specifics. That's all that matters.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Ensure they're happy at your own expense, certainly. That's pretty toxic, folks.


Nope. That's not toxic, that's just having a crappy attitude.

This is better: make a loving sacrifice for your spouse because (1) seeing them happy makes you happy and (2) their wants and needs matter as much as your own.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> He hasn't always made an effort, but he is now.


Yes. And, so are you.....

Three things are necessary, for a person to make effort. 1) he/she must believe there is a reward, which is better than the current state; 2) he/she must believe that he/she can "do it".

A change in you may have been the "ticket" to one, or both, of these criteria, for your husband......he is likely receiving good counsel, too.....

I think, with your current stance on this, you will get the reward that you seek, with time. Keep going to the bedroom and making hot. Your husband will feel his reward, and will respond.

You are a wise and intelligent wife. I believe you will continue to make the right choices.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Well I am scared and dumbfounded. 

Yesterday work for me took me to a place of stress I rarely experience, and my husband is supportive and heard my angst last night with empathy and compassion. So keep that in mind. 

This morning I awoke to him lightly touching the small of my back for about 5 seconds. 
We have a king size bed...the rest of his body was in another county. 
I had just awoke, and figured he'd scooch over toward me and we'd cuddle. Instead he got up and got dressed. My heart hurt. WTF was that? 
When I said 'Really?!' as he walked away, he came back and said he was just turning on the coffee, and was coming back to bed.
No he wasn't. 
You don't get dressed to do something that requires a short walk and the push of a button. He knows this, I know this, it was a lie. 
He was not planning on coming back to bed.
He says he touched me and I didn't respond. So I was either asleep or ignoring his touch.

I called him out on this. He walked away and slammed a door.

There is a problem here.
I don't reject him.

This was all just affection, not sex.
He touched the small of my back for less than 5 seconds and withdrew from me.
I assumed as I awoke he was going to snuggle me.
I snuggle him in the middle of the night, early in the morning, any damn time I want to. I don't timidly touch him and wait for an invitation. We are married, in the same bed, that's what you do. 

I inquired about that...
Don't I snuggle you when you are asleep? 
Do I make little bids, little attempts to see if it's cool to GIVE you affection?
Nope.
I give you affection.

Does it piss you off if you are woke twith my arms and legs wrapped around you?
He replied No. (And he always has seemed pleased, never recoiled by my snuggles)

So why are the **** are we going backwards?

Instead of showering me with love and affection, he's more timid and afraid. 

I told him to try to PROVE to himself and point out that I reject him by snuggling up to me, or pulling me towards him. He will find a woman that loves being buried in her mans' arms, and finally feels secure. 
There won't be any rejection here.

Why does it feel like the onus is always on me, to give enough and bridge the gap?

I thought I had given him enough love and affection to make up for what he's never had.....his childhood was ****. No abuse per se, but no love or affection.....yeah, guess that is abuse. But have I not provided all the love and security available? 

I guess not.

So in my opinion, he's still insecure. 
24 years of faithfulness, affection, and affirmation by me hasn't healed him. But don't we always want constant reassurance that we are worthy and loved? Of course! And it's not like I have stopped giving to him the best I can, freely from my heart, even in times that I am trying to create a boundary for my needs being met.

Can't he see my needs as objectively as I see his?

I hate life right now.

(And, no, I am not suicidal lofl! Life just sucks monkey balls at the moment)

And all of the above to say that he still thinks he's a nice guy letting his wife sleep and not imposing. I can argue til the cows come home that I would LOVE waking and finding myself in his arms, and he does not believe me.

Initiation is the problem. 
Period.
He is afraid to act.

This ****er needs to learn behavior modification before my soul just withers and dies.
He needs that therapy where you are exposed to your phobia until you are no longer afraid. 
And I am safe!
I won't bite him.
But I sure enjoy when he nibbles on me.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

*"He is afraid to act."* 
That is what you have to keep in mind. Now that he's in IC, I suggest you discuss a timetable for MC. It will be a safe space for him to bring up his fears around this issue and where you can both approach the discussions in a calmer state of mind. 
As others have pointed out, if this is something you cannot live with much longer and you aren't seeing the change you want, then divorce him. It's better for both of you. 
Good luck.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

workerbee said:


> He says he touched me and I didn't respond.


Why do you think this is a lie ? I mean, I get it that he lied about turning on coffee.... but the question is, why did he lie ??



workerbee said:


> So in my opinion, he's still insecure.
> 24 years of faithfulness, affection, and affirmation by me hasn't healed him.


You are correct. 



workerbee said:


> And I am safe!


The problem is that you know you are safe. And, I think you are. But your husband doesn't feel that failure, with you, is safe. 5 seconds may be all he can muster, without response.

You aren't "going backwards".


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

workerbee said:


> When I said 'Really?!' as he walked away, he came back and said he was just turning on the coffee, and was coming back to bed.
> No he wasn't.





workerbee said:


> I called him out on this. He walked away and slammed a door.


That's rather antagonistic. As though you were looking to pick a fight. Could you have handled it differently? Perhaps, telling him that you were looking forward to him returning and having a snuggle. You don't want to make him afraid of touching you for fear that there will be a fight ensuing if he changes his mind. Maybe, he had been stroking you for longer than 5 seconds and being asleep you weren't aware. That would be giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

You're tryng to train him so keep those little doggie treats in mind.


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## Mylehigh (Jul 8, 2019)

workerbee said:


> Well I am scared and dumbfounded.
> 
> Yesterday work for me took me to a place of stress I rarely experience, and my husband is supportive and heard my angst last night with empathy and compassion. So keep that in mind.
> 
> ...


Your frustration is so relatable for me, and of course what I hear you saying is deeply rooted through the filter of my own experiences and frustrations. The longer your overall sexual relationship goes on in such an unsatisfying way for you, the more you see day to day events through this lens. 

Yeah I know... keen eye for the obvious. 

If a reader saw only the details of this specific situation you wrote about this morning without the benefit of backstory - they may be a bit baffled by the intensity of feelings it caused in you. Yet I see myself in this exact frame of mind you show here more and more frequently as my personal situation goes unresolved. And sometimes it gets tossed back at me like - 'what the heck are you talking about? I was just *___* (fill in the blank)...' Complete denial (lie), as if what I focused on wasn't a meaningful issue at all and something is 'wrong' with my perception of it. 

So I guess I'm just trying to offer a note of empathy here. Your post sadly shows how when a person has unmet needs in the intimate and sexual aspects of their marriage - needs that the person they love is so capable of meeting and at times has done so - it can feel so unbearable.You have tasted the good life when he is there for you and you know how close together it brings you. It could be so easy to shrug off what happened to you this morning if coming from a base of confidence that what you shared the night before was the norm and was going to be there for you again very soon. The heart hurting as you described above is such an awful feeling. It feels like it carves a huge hollow space right out of your chest. I felt it a little bit just reading your words.


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## Mylehigh (Jul 8, 2019)

Don't bite on the victim blaming - I don't think you were antagonistic. He's past the puppy stage. He should know how to ask to go outside and to not hop up on the couch by now. I suspect that tempering your reactions and giving the benefit of the doubt when you clearly see what happened grew old after the 11,000th time you tried that approach over the past 25 years.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

My thoughts will probably not be popular. Oh well.

What isn't okay about touching someone lightly, and then getting out of bed because you surmise they are still asleep because there isn't a response? Sounds pretty normal and even polite, to me. The really??!? you came out with at him with does sound antagonistic. He can't do anything right, according to you, and this is just one more instance. The flowchart you presented him with in the past outlined for him just how much he can't do anything right, to the point of you considering divorce, _suicide_, depression, drinking. If my spouse didn't like my personality to the point they were telling me my sexual personality was driving them to these things, well, honestly I would have left the relationship and I'd never trust them again. And this is a GREAT guy, you say. It's not like he's an asshole. You say he is wonderful. He's probably scared ****less of you emotionally. Really.

I get you being disappointed---like maybe how he felt the other night when he was in the mood for a sexual encounter and you needed to- --------think about it and didn't feel very motivated to get off the couch.

I bet he can feel how much you absolutely HATE the way he is wired sexually. I don't know how can ever have a happy sex life with you going forward.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

DH communicated on his own today with the counselor. 
This morning's events were a topic, and DH heard from the counselor he needs to rewire his brain and take action. 
I'm at a weird place right now.
My husband is telling me he has recognized that his insecurity has kept me from feeling safe and he will be taking action now and will lead (I am paraphrasing, give me a bit of grace cause I am still somewhat perplexed).
Also, the things the counselor said was not anything actually new, these things my husband has heard before from me. My husband said apparently he needed to hear these things from another voice, he didn't know why, and agreed that sucks, but he sees, knows what he needs to do and is going to change. He's prepared to feel uncomfortable in life for a while as he walks unfamiliar ground.

I believe him.

I'm a little numb, I am hopeful and kinda optimistic, but I am not ecstatic. I actually asked him to give me a little bit of grace right now, because I don't feel 'relief' that he's seeing the problem and trying to fix his part. Instead, I kind of feel like I just died and had 'I told you I was sick' written on my tombstone. (NO, lol, I am not suicidal!!!! LoL, it's the only way I can describe my feelings. To be validated when I have hurt this long has me conflicted.)

I will get to a place where I am happy for him wanting to meet my needs, I just need to process that he actually sees what I have fought so hard for him to see. 
He is mine, always. 
I'm looking forward to knowing that I am his.

Marriage is complicated lol.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

workerbee said:


> My husband said apparently he needed to hear these things from another voice,


He wouldn't be the first husband to be deaf to his wife's words. 



workerbee said:


> I don't feel 'relief' that he's seeing the problem and trying to fix his part.


Why would you? It's insulting when you examine it. Let's hope it isn't a case of "too little, too late".


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Two observations after rising some more:

1) This looks like he has an avoidant attachment style. I’m living this now. Vulnerability, risk, humility and accountability are to be avoided at all costs. I’ve seen this manifest in counter factual arguments like “I thought you were asleep.” They can say they took a risk (which is greatly amplified in their mind), you don’t respond, they validate that “bids” are always rejected, then they take the ground trying to claim credit for a good faith effort and you sabotaged it. Similar to a huge relief when a call goes to voicemail. No threat and you get credit for reaching out.

2) The only thing worse than not being loved is having to tell your partner how you want/need to be loved and they avoid any responsibility and/or it just doesn’t compute. I’ve flat out been told it’s not her responsibility yo out of her way to make me to feel loved. I was shocked.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> He wouldn't be the first husband to be deaf to his wife's words.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you? It's insulting when you examine it. Let's hope it isn't a case of "too little, too late".


No! It's NOT too little too late!!!!!!!!

Thank you, I NEEDED to hear this.
Because now I see it, I AM hopeful!!!

I am just terrified to be hopeful!


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> Two observations after rising some more:
> 
> 1) This looks like he has an avoidant attachment style. I’m living this now. Vulnerability, risk, humility and accountability are to be avoided at all costs. I’ve seen this manifest in counter factual arguments like “I thought you were asleep.” They can say they took a risk (which is greatly amplified in their mind), you don’t respond, they validate that “bids” are always rejected, then they take the ground trying to claim credit for a good faith effort and you sabotaged it. Similar to a huge relief when a call goes to voicemail. No threat and you get credit for reaching out.
> 
> ...


Yes.
Spot on.
And given his childhood, it would be an ideal coping mechanism. 
And I actually think he would agree what you've written is an accurate statement.

The thing is, in the past, he DID think he was trying. And he really was. 
I have seen the struggle. 
The struggle is realz lol.

And I have at times observed growth in this area. It isn't lasting, because his default is protecting himself at all costs, including our expense. 
He needs me, he will be beyond crushed, it will kill his soul if he loses me. 
He knows this, I know this. 
Even the consideration of divorce as a possible option took a great deal of contemplation on my part.
But in the end, his suffering cannot continue to trump mine, and it became a clear viable option. 

So he has had his eyes opened. 
I am giving grace as he struggles to reach past his own internal struggles. I am promising him that he will find a different kind of safety and a soft place to land.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

“My heart hurt.”

Can you elaborate on what you felt, especially the different emotions?

“Why does it feel like the onus is always on me, to give enough and bridge the gap?”

I don’t know? But it seems like the most important question of all. By a long shot. And the answer may be more about you than it is about what he does or doesn’t do to you. If indeed a significant part of the answer lies inward, IF you’re like most folks, myself included, you’re going to mightily struggle to avoid finding an answer there inside? We tend to want the answer to be about them, not us.

Maybe you’ve felt that way before, long before you met your husband — and maybe that can unlock some answers?

What was the process like for you to get your needs met in younger years, perhaps in childhood?

Every bit of what you felt over this is as valid as any one else’s feelings. I am truly sorry you are suffering in your marriage this way. I’ve certainly suffered in mine, and know it can suck. That said, if there was a change you could make in yourself whereby you would have naturally processed the unfolding events differently, experienced them differently, and got your needs met, would you want in on it? If that change had to come from you?

I’m just some guy on the internet who doesn’t know much, and has failed “relationship” significantly. But I’ve been reading some books, lol. Applying them to what I’ve just read from you, here is what comes to mind. Take it with a grain of salt, or tell me to go **** myself. But, fwiw, I’ll just throw this out there: 

Sounds to me his withdrawing his hand struck a nerve. A nerve that is uniquely yours. And a whole cascade of negative emotion followed, along with behavior that might have pushed you two further apart. The motivation behind some of your reaction came from a part of you was that was seeking your protection, protection from hurt; it literally may be seeking to push you two apart. But that backfired, and has before. It isn’t working for you. A bigger part of you is going to have sort that process all out so it unfolds differently, and to ensure that part of you feels safer, next time.

I’ll add, you seem to have put time into thinking about his past, his younger years, and what is needed for him to dust himself off and move on from it.

Have you done the same for you? Maybe you have — did it yield anything for you yet?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

workerbee said:


> I am just terrified to be hopeful!


That’s the sort of thing I was trying to get to.

How can you leverage that insightful self-awareness to get closer to having what you want?

Btw, his attachment style was speculated on above. Care to speculate on yours?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> “My heart hurt.”
> 
> Can you elaborate on what you felt, especially the different emotions?
> 
> ...


****, I didn't lack affection, wasn't abused, was given grace and expected to live up to decent standards. 
I succeeded, I floundered a bit in my misspent youth, but it was a fleeting phase, I joined the military, put myself through a university and have a decent career. Family has almost always had my back, I've always believed God loves me and is unfailingly there for me, so if I am screwed up, I am unaware. 
Of course blind spots are exactly that, blind spots. My husband says that he has heard me ask if I'm not good enough, and he thinks that is my blind spot. I am not sure, I think that's his blind spot, and he's projecting. I have healthy introspection, I think, but maybe the thoughts I have about myself are deluded, who the hell knows? LoL!!!!

I've read Schnarch and Stan Tatkin, and I do my best to make sure my feelings aren't based upon lies I erroneously believe, or inaccurate perspective. 
That's essentially why I am here.
Not for validation, I am seeking to see if I need a perspective readjustment. Because no matter how hard you try to be objective, no one can find their own blind spots. It requires someone outside of themself to point out what's hidden. 

So I will consider your post.

There are posts I haven't responded to; posts that seemed controversial. ... I haven't replied to some posts because I am considering if there is merit, especially since they were controversial to my own biased opinion.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> That’s the sort of thing I was trying to get to.
> 
> How can you leverage that insightful self-awareness to get closer to having what you want?
> 
> Btw, his attachment style was speculated on above. Care to speculate on yours?


I'm 100% INTJ.

I am a complete conundrum.

I actually believed initially that my flowsheet would be helpful.
That's how I think.

I don't always translate well.

I'm differentiated, I think he needs to grow and I need to quit enabling him not to because he's afraid.

Edited to add: hell, it may be just because I am pushing toward 50, and just no longer willing to sit back and suffer, I am speaking up and being proactive.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Double post/sorry


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> Bad Santa or anybody with actual advice (besides throw in the towe), I would really like to hear from you.


I was taking a break from this site for a while as I often get frustrated with folks that say nothing works when relationships have problems. 

When it comes to the dynamics that cause sexual frustrations, odds are those dynamics are reversed somewhere else in the relationship. In my marriage I often don't like travel, especially to crowded places with little or no parking whereas my wife desperately craves that kind of stuff (current events aside). So as I have historically pushed myself to change my behavior regarding that and be more willing to go places without stressing out over parking it has made a difference on the other end of things. My wife sees me making an effort to change and this gives her patience to help make changes for other more intimate areas of our relationship in a positive way. 

*WANTING TO BE WANTED*

You have to really look at that from a perspective that you are probably going to feel better by knowing what you want and being able to make it happen. As much as I have wanted my wife to show desire for me and initiate sexual intimacy, that never happens. Once I changed my perspective and started to appreciate how much she initiates nonsexual forms of intimacy and wanting to do things together (like going out to places), she does have a strong desire and need to be around me. I had to learn how to acknowledge that and allow it to fill my emotional battery banks for wanting to be wanted. 

I think the biggest thing that has helped is the logistics of being able to schedule things. And not any of that reschedule, raincheck, perhaps later, or I'm not feeling it nonsense. You make a schedule and you make it happen! You also have to remove expectations about what will happen with regards to the aspect of sexual performance/pleasure in favor of just feeling connected emotionally/pleasure. 

Also if sex in your marriage is a place of stress and arguing and it has been for years, there will be scars from that. It takes time to heal and change ones behaviors in favor of making sexual intimacy a place of relaxation and connection. I tend to want sex when I am stressed historically. The result of that is that if my wife tried to connect with me emotionally it meant she was going to be subject to all my stress and anxiety (not pleasurable for her). So I have had to learn how to better let go of all my stress and initiate intimacy from a place of being relaxed and calm. NOT an easy thing to do. 

Hope that helps! I am not checking in that often as I am dealing with a lot of stress in my life right now (as we all are), so I try disconnecting from things and mostly reading these days. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Honestly, I think you are both playing games with one another. He doesn’t show affection or initiate. Then he reaches out to touch your back. You them complain that he was too far away and that it was short lived. He thinks you were sleeping cause you didn’t react to his touch. You then react in a negative way when he gets out of bed. He then reacts to your reaction by slamming the door. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I’m not seeing what there is to be saved after two decades of this. I still think the death nail was the flowchart. It would be hard for me to come back from this. Like he was being treated as a child or your marriage was nothing but a business transaction. But what’s done is done.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

In his own fumbling way, he IS TRYING to initiate. His approach strikes me as someone who does not fear rejection. Rather, it's a fear of doing it wrong. 

I get that you're frustrated, I would be, too. However, your reaction to the two initiation sequences of recent days probably did little to help the situation (or his confidence.) He tried verbally communicating his desire, and it seemed like you quizzed him in a way that would convey that he wasn't getting the job done. Next day, he tried light touch and basically got chastised for not following through.

I recognize he's not getting the job done. He's definitely not taking charge of the situation. But you surely must recognize that you're giving him negative reaction off the bat when he does try. Makes me wonder if something else is happening in the relationship dynamic to make him so mousy. 

On other issues, is he expected to be a "mindreader" of your hopes and expectations?. Do you find yourself chastising him for not addressing needs / issues that you left unspoken? For instance, if he does the grocery shopping, would you give him trouble if he forgets to buy butter - even though you didn't tell him that you specifically wanted more butter?

My hunch is that he may have learned long ago that he "can't win" when dealing with you. The path of least resistance is just retreating into his shell. It's safest to just stay in there when you're living with a spouse who bites your head off every time you do something "wrong." If you want him to be more aggressive in intimacy, that has to be translated into other areas of your life. Would you say your husband is willing to tell you to stuff a sock in it when you're doing something that irritates him? Is he willing to challenge you when you're wrong? What are the conversations like when he does challenge you and your worldview?

Maybe, just maybe, you've trained him to be a "go along, get along" type of fella. Could that be why every other aspect of marriage is perfect for you? He always defers to you? That's why you think all other aspects of the marriage are great maybe? You always get your way? Spoiler alert: The marriage may or may not be quite so great for your hubby. 

I could be way off base. Really, just skimmed the thread. So pardon me if my suggestions are not reflective of the situation at hand. Some of the reactions you describe in your latest post, though, are those of a husband who feels he "can't win." It's a feeling that would be the product of years of conditioning in which he has found that things roll more smoothly when you get your way. He's figured out the rules of your relationship. Happy wife, happy life, so wife gets her way all of the time. But, now, you're changing the rules because you want him to situationally display a level of dominance that is not allowed in any other aspect of your relationship.

Yes, it's easy to point the finger at the spouse and identify everything they're doing wrong. It's been my experience, however, that fodder for relationship troubles are provided in equal measures from all participants. Do you have any thoughts on what your contribution has been to creating this situation? 

Again, apologies if I'm badly misreading the situation from this obscure corner of the interweb.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

MarriedTex said:


> In his own fumbling way, he IS TRYING to initiate. His approach strikes me as someone who does not fear rejection. Rather, it's a fear of doing it wrong.
> 
> I get that you're frustrated, I would be, too. However, your reaction to the two initiation sequences of recent days probably did little to help the situation (or his confidence.) He tried verbally communicating his desire, and it seemed like you quizzed him in a way that would convey that he wasn't getting the job done. Next day, he tried light touch and basically got chastised for not following through.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts.
I pondered on this to make sure my answer is honest and accurate and as objective as possible. 

I am not harsh with him in any other area of our life.
If he forgets the butter, I don't care.
I don't ride his ass in any other area of our life. 
I ask him to spray for pests when he gets a chance, because it's July, and ants start appearing around now, and he'll thank me for the reminder.
I did interrogate him relentlessly a few years ago when we replaced our gas water heater and he had to redo the gas pipe/vent. He assured me he knew wtf he was doing and quit worrying....but it was more my lack of understanding and wanting to not die in my sleep that caused my interrogation, and truth be told, a professional would've received my cross examination. We haven't died, so he knew wtf he was doing.

So to answer your question, I only married him because I trust him to lead. And I let him. He damn near asked my permission to buy a motorcycle a few years back, he's a grown man that I fully support to make any choice that he wants!
I don't care what he does with our money, he's capable and responsible, he has my support in all things. 

And that's the thing. He's FULLY capable in life. He can do anything, and do it well. He's a go-to guy for diy issues, advice and knowledge. 
A self starter.

I don't nag or badger him, except the intimacy aspect of our marriage. 
He leads to the degree he choses to, I would prefer he not consider me so much, I'm would not be easily offended by even a few crappy independent choices on his part. But I can't see him making crappy choices, he's a solid, logical man. We agree on 99% of life issues.

The sex thing, the initiation has been the only area he cannot, does not lead. He said he just didn't know what to do....so I did the flowchart every one hates. He's gd mechanically minded, I thought it was helpful. I wasn't trying to be an ass, although I COMPLETELY understand why most everyone thinks it was a ****ty move. Myself included more than half of the time when I consider it. The other 50% given my perspective, and hearing him say he wants to make this better/he's just kinda lost, I thought it was a helpful tool.

One wonderful peice of advice from the counselor, DH needs to treat me like he treats the staff he oversees at work. Quit asking permission from me. That's how he can lead.....that really helped my husband to a path forward. They discussed it might feel awkward for a while, because it is unfamiliar territory. And he can make decisions at work without fear of being wrong, fake it at home right now if necessary until he grows into it. 

But he found a way to get started with behavior modification. That's a HUGE step.

I find this whole situation extremely complicated, and it fascinates me. 
I am usually able to understand and enjoy finding the underlying dynamics involved with people....it's something that just interests me. I like to understand why people behave how they do, and what they are thinking. I am usually really good at it, but sometimes I have been WAY off base, but I am generally more right than wrong. Well, this has proven to be extremely complex, probably because I am involved, but more because the typical gender roles are not in play. 

I also think that the only place he cannot lead is the bedroom. He says he just isn't spontaneously desirous. I think that's only part of it. He's told me that his emotions and sex aren't connected. I've always felt this is ********. It's not true. He would cringe at the thought of me with another man, that's sex, so he's completely wrong.....you can't have it both ways. He's just always disconnected himself from the two things together out of self preservation. Fear. [This discussion 1st occurred about 5 years ago]

The other day he brought up that he 'feels more' now when we are intimate, closer, an emotional bond. He then clarified he wasn't sure he didn't feel it before, or that he's starting to recognize it. I am beyond encouraged!

Schnarch talks about differentiation.
Esther Perel discusses how desire needs space. Schnarch talks about how you can heal the past in the present [or was that Tatkin?]

[Backstory: remember DH not given love/affection as a child/young adult. Then had a very longterm relationship that ended with her having an affair and that relationship ended. We married a few years later]

My theory is that he protects himself unintentionally from being fully present emotionally in our intimate life.
You can't give what you don't have. ("That's just not who I am ")
You can't give what you don't acknowledge you have to give. 
If you don't have intense emotional desire, or never acknowledge or tap into it, if things end, you'll be hurt less having had less on the line.

Only that's not true at all.
If I had an affair, or we divorced, his pain would not be diminished.
There may be, to a small degree, a little less on the line, a little less vulnerability, a little less self disclosure. 
But the pain would still exist if I leave, become unfaithful or die (no, I am not suicidal lol).

Meanwhile, the joy we could both have is prevented!
He's afraid to differentiate from me by initiating sex. He's afraid to distance himself away from me enough to see me, let me see him, and allow the space for desire to occur. Because that is vulnerable! That exposes us as who we are, not only to our lover, but ourselves. It's much easier to not initiate and never put yourself on the line.

I am challenging him to grow because I love him and want him to claim that part of him that he's denied existed. I've seen this part of him, it exists, I am not romanticizing him, he's real. He's been locked up in the shell of a small boy never getting smothered with affectionate kisses, played with, doted over, and stifled by another woman that promised to cherish him always that abandoned him, confirming his worst beliefs about himself. 

Am I completely full of horseshit?
I think my thinking makes sense.

But I am also the stupid ***** that thought the flowchart was a great idea LoLz!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I have a two year old daughter who is “all girl” and for over a year now she enjoys pretty things, choosing hair tie colors and putting on her prettiest dresses when just playing around the house. I’ve noticed that all the boys and men (uncle, brothers, and even sisters) recognize this and say “that’s pretty”, “you’re so pretty”, etc...
The point is they all sort of play along in this role of recognizing her as pretty simply because she enjoys it. 

I think hubby should have more incentive to play this role with you.. you like it, he can get the reward of sex, and in some ways it is just behaving the way a man is expected to.

That said it seems hubby’s behavior is malicious at worst and suspicious at best... I can’t imagine any man with testosterone in his veins not wanting to participate... I think he must be secretly masturbating or have some serious resentments...


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Good to hear that hubby is not pushover in other areas of life. That is encouraging and increases the odds of finding a successful outcome to this.

If we work from the premise, however, that he has some fears related to initiation, would you have any idea on where that may originate from? Is family particularly repressed religiously? Do you know of any traumatic romantic rejection experienced early in life for him? Anything in your history as a couple that may have trained him to not rock the boat, sexually (i.e. did he used to ask for oral but doesn't anymore?)

How do you think he would respond if you watched a porno movie together? Or read erotica to each other? Would either of these trigger embarrassment or discomfort for him? Would it get him revved up? Answers to these questions could get us a step closer to identifying the issue that makes him hesitant on the initiation front.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but it would be incomplete otherwise.

Are you any good in bed? Does your husband have good reason to want to have sex with you? Are you a good, giving, and game lover? Or is it mostly about your own satisfaction?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I think it’s interesting that *you* use the words “harsh” and “interrogation” in describing your communication with your husband.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> *He's told me that his emotions and sex aren't connected.*


That seems fascinating. As an HD man, I'll admit that there actually may be _some_ truth in that. To some degree the male sexual response is designed for survival of the species and the desire for sex can be emotionally the same as the desire for responding to a big double bacon cheeseburger ad that was just on TV. And if somebody wants that big double bacon cheeseburger, all one needs to do is drive up and ASK for it! 

So who initiated that? If there had been no ad on TV, there would be no desire for the cheeseburger. 

OK... now back to the emotional part. I think it does require an effort for some men to connect sexuality and emotions together and understand how the are related. For the most part it all happens subconsciously and perhaps instinctually. Kind of like breathing and your heartbeat. You can leave them on autopilot or you can learn to take conscious control over them (to some degree). Do your breathing and heart rate impact your emotions? Or do your emotions impact your breathing and heart rate? How are they related? 

My point being is that I do think it is possible for a man to allow his sexuality to run completely on autopilot. The only thing society teaches young men in terms of that is abstinence and how to deny those feelings in favor of exercise an other activities. It takes time to understand how sexuality is tied to emotions and how to better control and condition them. 

I recently stumbled across a cheesy 1997 movie about sex on Amazon Prime called "Bliss." Terence Stamp (awesome actor) plays the role of this sexual guru that works across the street from the main character's construction site. The construction workers have a telescope setup and watch as this he pleasures a countless number of women all day long. The main character struggles to please his wife, so he go to see the guy to learn how to be in touch with his sexuality and please his wife. Perhaps you can enjoy watching that one with your husband and perhaps have a playful conversation about the topics involved. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Lots of great responses, and I will tackle each in a little while when I have more time. 

I used the words harsh and interrogation intentionally. I'm trying to be honest. I don't criticize him about hair style, personal choices, his behavior towards me or any thing that he does in life....maybe snoring. Ok, snoring....I always joke that's the only complaint that I have with the man to acquaintances, and he can't control that. I don't nag, I don't belittle him, I think I am always supportive and expressing my appreciation and respect towards him. I am sure I am not perfect. But I also have asked him and done so on a somewhat regular basis to see if I am treating him well, with respect and love. It's the same ol story you always here......our relationship is pretty much perfect except for the intimacy. 

As far as my abilities, lol.....
Giving.... oh beyond a doubt.
Attentive? Absolutely. 
I explore, I try new things, I absolutely like to mix it up.
Variety is the spice of life.

I cannot say with any authority that I am a good or bad lover.
You'd need to check my references.
But I have never been told that I am bad, I've always been told by my husband that I am good, but thst obviously doesn't mean anything. No one tells their ugly child they are ugly.

An anecdote......
A somewhat traumatic event had occurred with regard to someone from his job several years back. 
A death occurred, not the kind that would cause PTSD, the cause of death was not traumatic, but extremely unexpected and it rocked company.....high stress all around. 

When he came home from work that day, 8 hours after this event took place, I greeted him with a glass of scotch, unzipped his pants, and attempted a wonderful bj. I was unsuccessful. Not because I am bad at it. I have plenty of evidence in my life that assures me I am more than adequate at this. My husband just not appreciate sex when he is in high stress mode. It doesn't comfort him or help him escape. 

We've had many talks about this, and we laugh about our differences. It is absurd to him to think anyone would want sex and pleasure under those circumstances. He has been assured (and promises to remember) in similar circumstances and the roles are reversed, he ABSOLUTELY should treat me as I failingly attempted to 'treat' him.

Part of this is innate. 
I won't change he doesn't want or respond to sexual advances when stressed as a coping mechanism. 
He cannot change that I do.

But we're learning to work together and see each others views.

I didn't blame him back then for his lack of reaction or enjoyment after the tragedy at work. I was surprised, but then immediately processed and understood just how different we are. I don't expect him to change.

I do expect him to consider who I am and how I am different than him. That my bucket can be filled by him when he thinks outside of his normalcy bias. 

Hope that made sense, I am a bit of a time constraint....I know I could have explained that a bit better.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

MarriedTex said:


> Good to hear that hubby is not pushover in other areas of life. That is encouraging and increases the odds of finding a successful outcome to this.
> 
> If we work from the premise, however, that he has some fears related to initiation, would you have any idea on where that may originate from? Is family particularly repressed religiously? Do you know of any traumatic romantic rejection experienced early in life for him? Anything in your history as a couple that may have trained him to not rock the boat, sexually (i.e. did he used to ask for oral but doesn't anymore?)
> 
> How do you think he would respond if you watched a porno movie together? Or read erotica to each other? Would either of these trigger embarrassment or discomfort for him? Would it get him revved up? Answers to these questions could get us a step closer to identifying the issue that makes him hesitant on the initiation front.


No traumatic events in regard to sex, I've asked, he denies any.

There's nothing in the bedroom that I won't do, or that I used to do and have stopped doing.
I've never been a gatekeeper, I've never closed the gate on him.
I am however, asking him to open the gate, not wait for me to grab his hand and invite him in.

I don't do porn, ok, I TRY not to engage in porn. I'm usually successful. I don't think that it is healthy, I want to keep my sexuality towards us. He feels the same. That's not repressed, it turns me on, but I feel shame because I don't believe it's appropriate in a marriage. 
Porn would probably turn him on a somewhat. But if he's using his own hand, it's not worth it to him. He enjoys sex with me, but neither of us want to invite porn.

We read sex blogs, books, etc....it's not new the past 5 years but we didn't talk about sex much for the first 19 years. It was uncomfortable for us.

Once I hit perimenopause, I was still uncomfortable discussing the issues, but my hormones propelled me to have awkward conversations. He was very uncomfortable with our discussions, but he didn't shut down. He is now very open to discussing our sex life. We've broken that barrier, it's a normal thing for us to openly talk about.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

badsanta said:


> That seems fascinating. As an HD man, I'll admit that there actually may be _some_ truth in that. To some degree the male sexual response is designed for survival of the species and the desire for sex can be emotionally the same as the desire for responding to a big double bacon cheeseburger ad that was just on TV. And if somebody wants that big double bacon cheeseburger, all one needs to do is drive up and ASK for it!
> 
> So who initiated that? If there had been no ad on TV, there would be no desire for the cheeseburger.
> 
> ...


I almost watched that movie last night. 

I think we'll watch it together in the next day or two and get back to you.

I'm hoping it won't be porn porn.
I don't mind movies with sex, GOT doesn't offend us. I just don't want to watch PORN. 
I'm not a complete prude, but my standards might seem weird and wishy washy, but it is who I am.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

badsanta said:


> I was taking a break from this site for a while as I often get frustrated with folks that say nothing works when relationships have problems.
> 
> When it comes to the dynamics that cause sexual frustrations, odds are those dynamics are reversed somewhere else in the relationship. In my marriage I often don't like travel, especially to crowded places with little or no parking whereas my wife desperately craves that kind of stuff (current events aside). So as I have historically pushed myself to change my behavior regarding that and be more willing to go places without stressing out over parking it has made a difference on the other end of things. My wife sees me making an effort to change and this gives her patience to help make changes for other more intimate areas of our relationship in a positive way.
> 
> ...


First of all, thanks for responding BS.
I don't know if it's your catchy username, but I always have enjoyed your posts. I've seen you come up with out of the box solutions that would not occur to most people. 

I know I've said this before, but there aren't struggles in other areas of our marriage. He agrees. 
If there were problems in other areas, it'd be easy to throw in the towel. We genuinely love eachother, like eachother, respect eachother, and get along well. (We even used to have fun lol! This issue has sucked the joy outta life, but it isn't leaking into other areas, it's confined to the issue of intimacy.)

One school of thought is that I should just tell him when I need intimacy. 
The problem is, it sneaks up on my arse. I don't seem to notice that I am feeling disconnected from him until I already do. And that doesn't change the fact I still want him to initiate from time to time, well actually all of the time for the moment (just for the moment).

Another thing, women with unmet needs tend to internalize it. 
It took a lot of hard work for me to be able to speak outside of myself and not feel like a failure like there was something wrong with me, when in reality ,it's the dynamic at play that is the issue. A man will probably respond differently than me in the same situation.

How many women have to always initiate sex from their husbands?

I'm not fat, not ugly, and I love this feller.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

badsanta said:


> That seems fascinating. As an HD man, I'll admit that there actually may be _some_ truth in that. To some degree the male sexual response is designed for survival of the species and the desire for sex can be emotionally the same as the desire for responding to a big double bacon cheeseburger ad that was just on TV. And if somebody wants that big double bacon cheeseburger, all one needs to do is drive up and ASK for it!
> 
> So who initiated that? If there had been no ad on TV, there would be no desire for the cheeseburger.
> 
> ...


Listen, I really want your opinion, I specifically sought out your opinion, and I believe that you are unique in able to identify both sides of the issue.
So I hope that you will remember that I am asking an honest question, not trying to be an arse, but because your response here isn't lining up with what you just posted.

Can you help me understand the discrepancy?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> I almost watched that movie last night.
> 
> I think we'll watch it together in the next day or two and get back to you.
> 
> ...


I just finished it the other day and the later part of the movie addresses child abuse which I was not expecting. Aside from that it is a good movie on sexuality and the teachings of tantric sex. It did get a NC-17 rating when released.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> Listen, I really want your opinion, I specifically sought out your opinion, and I believe that you are unique in able to identify both sides of the issue.
> So I hope that you will remember that I am asking an honest question, not trying to be an arse, but because your response here isn't lining up with what you just posted.
> 
> Can you help me understand the discrepancy?
> ...


Let me gather my thoughts. My wife always accuses me of just wanting sex for sex's sake. So that line of thinking may be me trying to understand her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> Can you help me understand the discrepancy?


*
Sex and emotions or lack thereof*

I'm just speaking candidly here after some thought.

Some background...
In my own marriage my wife gets frustrated to me that she can not attribute how my sexual desire works. One thing she knows for sure is that often she did nothing to arouse me or give me a reason to trigger an urge. So where exactly DID that come from?​​Originally I complained that my desire came from an emotional need/want to be connected to her. She rejected this idea repeatedly and insisted I just needed an orgasm and she happened to be the only available vagina. We would get in many situations where I would just have to have it and she would go through the motions often not feeling anything herself except that of performing a marital duty to just get it over with and be free of me bothering her for the rest of the weekend.​​That experience often left me emotionally unsettled and even more desperate to connect with her.​​Where we are today...
I guess I have trained myself to see things from my wife's perspective and treat sexual pleasure as just a raw carnal thing. If I have a desire, I have no qualms taking care of myself or sharing that with her. And I am rather capable of enjoying my alone time, as I have removed all shame and guilt from that aspect of my personality.​​I have made a great effort to connect all my emotions to nonsexual intimacy. And THAT is where I find all my needs being met, AND the ability to unlock a mutual pleasurable carnal experience between my wife and I. I guess the concept would be like blurring the lines between nonsexual intimacy and sexual intimacy into one. However is things are just not going to happen sexually then my emotional needs are in a very healthy place because my wife and I maintain a strong connection via nonsexual intimacy.​​In my opinion that is what allows me to be emotionally present when we do have sex, but without all the negative issues of sexual/emotional neediness. There are no expectations on sex and pleasure (which makes it way more likely to happen and be exponentially better) because there are no emotions attached. Meanwhile all the emotions are present as if having a nice back rub and meaningful and deep conversation.​​That probably makes no sense. But I have worked to try and not be a sexually needy person around my wife in favor of focusing instead on the emotional connection. The sexual part just tends to happen naturally once things are in tune this way. It also allows for sex to be better facilitated when it does not happen naturally, because there is no longer the risk of emotional fallout if there are still arousal/anxiety issues that prevent pleasure.​​So I guess what I am saying is can you have sex and still be relaxed and fully present emotionally by primarily keeping a strong nonsexual-intimate connection in the midst of an impending orgasm? Odds are your husband likely struggles to maintain a nonsexual-intimate connection with you when you are having sex. He may need the freedom to say sex is just sex and it doesn't matter if it happens or not (meaning as if no emotions are connected to it). 

True sexual desire should not have expectations tied to it! Move your expectations somewhere else so that sex can be free and you can each be emotionally present.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

workerbee said:


> He enjoys sex with me, but neither of us want to invite porn.


LOL...I've read this same claim countless times over the years from women who honestly believe their husbands don't look at porn and want nothing to do with it. 🥴🥴

The overwhelming majority of the time, these women eventually find out how really wrong they were. And I'm willing to bet you're one of those women who will eventually find out how wrong you are, OP.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> I'm hoping it won't be porn porn.
> I don't mind movies with sex, GOT doesn't offend us. I just don't want to watch PORN.
> I'm not a complete prude, but my standards might seem weird and wishy washy, but it is who I am.


My wife watches GOT and fast forwards through all the sex scenes. I often wonder if that is where significant portions of the plot get missed. 

Anyway, I remember conversing with one member here that initially had strong issues against porn as she would catch her husband using it while denying her intimacy. She worked to remove the shame associated with it and eventually used it here and there to spice things up in the bedroom. Then the tables kind of ironically turned, the husband got really upset at how vulnerable it made him by exposing clearly what he strongly desired sexually, and he insisted it should not be used. The wife got all upset because she felt as if she had stumbled onto certain things that could improve frequency and had it all abruptly shut down (making her efforts feel rejected).

I guess my point there is to illustrate that the idea of embracing porn in the midst of problems will likely not solve any problems. But this wife did learn some valuable insight into some of the hidden dynamics that drove her husband's sexuality. Afterwards she was able to incorporate some mild role play which turned out to be more stimulating to her husband than porn. 

(Some questions to think about but you don't have to answer)
Since you have read Schnarch, what do you think about the different modes of sexuality (sensation, partner-based, and role play)? Do you think those dynamics possibly create challenges in your marriage for initiating intimacy? If you are opposed to porn, how does that likely help define your mode of sexuality and does your husband share that same dynamic? 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Just an idea. Any interest in using a site like mojoupgrade.com in which both partners respond privately on a range of sex options they have interest in. These interests are revealed to both sides only if both cite an interest in the same act. Maybe if he knew of your interest in a specific act ahead of time, he would be more willing to initiate to make that act happen? 

Really, just grasping at straws now.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

StarFires said:


> It doesn't mean they never have sex because they do. It's just that sex is not important to him and is farthest from his mind until she initiates, and then he's into it. While that is the reversal of the primal algorithm that dictates gender sex roles, and also causes Workerbee incredible distress...


I have read countless posts from HD men that want to be wanted and need to be needed. Even when horny as all get out, they will reject a wife that demonstrates no desire out of fear of getting emotionally unsettling pity sex (even if she did finally start to enjoy it).

I think the distress you describe is not tied to any particular role of gender. Everyone wants to be wanted and everyone needs to be needed. 

What I do find interesting is the notion of one gender being able to withstand more of this distress than the the other. Or perhaps one gender can cope with it better. 

It is said that the autistic brain is that of a male. My wife thinks I am autistic and perhaps therein lies a certain set of coping abilities in that I can remove all emotion, look at the situation purely analytically, adapt, and then ultimately get what I want. Perhaps this is what @StarFires may refer to as a man chasing a woman, but I would describe more as a man better coping with wanting to be wanted. 

As for the OP's husband, he has never had to cope with this as he obviously has a spouse that wants him. So he just gets to relax and do nothing. 

Now I used to think that it was the one that cared the least had all the power, but I have recently seen that the other way around. It is the one that cares and knows how to analyze/manipulate a situation (or cope) that has all the power to get whatever they want when they want it and exactly how it is wanted. 

So I would argue that @workerbee shouldn't consider her pains in marriage as something that causes distress, but more so a powerful life tool that puts her fully in control to get exactly what she wants from her husband, however she wants it, and exactly in the way she wants it. 

I think she just needs to straight up start using him to please herself and not lift a finger to get him off. Let him figure that part out on his own while she enjoys watching him struggle with that. Then she will get what she wants!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

workerbee said:


> So I'm the HD wife, but I have responsive desire
> DH is completely 100% responsive.
> 
> ......I now refuse to initiate, as that will not fill my bucket.
> ...


My 2 cents. I was in a sex starved marriage and a great Sex Therapist saved my marriage. I have now been married to the same woman, who I love deeply for 49 years. We did not have sex for months and it was destroying me. The ST helped my W understand that if she continued to sexually deny me that we would divorce. My wife didn't want that, so the ST helped her understand what she would need to do to preserve the marriage. We agreed on sex 3 times a week and then later when that overwhelmed her sex twice a week. That was about 10 years ago. My wife is the one who usually initiates.

Now for my "advice." You might want to read some of MW Davis books, like the Sex Starved Wife. What I like about her approach is that she is a proponent of the 180. If something isn't working for you, change what you are doing until you get a desired response. At that point fine tune things by changing them a little until you get an even better response. Then iterate in on what you really want.

I sense that one of your problems is that you want you H to change. You can't change your H, only your H can change himself. I would really like my W to become HD or find her inner ****, but it will never happen. She changed herself enough to preserve our marriage but a minimum of what she needed to do. I really can't expect her to change unless she really wants to. That is where positive feedback comes in. The ST who recommended behavior modification, was probably correct, in that is what a positive feedback cycle is all about.

What you need to do (and you should already know having been married to him a long time) is what positive things you can do for him that he really values. What you don't understand is that you may have to undergo some behavior modification (because of your responsive desire) to give your H the feedback he needs to initiate and show you the passion you want.

To figure that out, I would recommend two more books for you to read. First is Schnarch's Intimacy and Desire. He has a section about how many couples need to have their partner obviously sexually desire them as a way of fulfilling and reinforcing their ego and personal value. You sound like this might be you. He has some exercises in how to increase sexual desire that are not for the timid. But his book may help both you and your H figure out how to increase your respective sexual desire for each other.

The second book, is Chapman's 5 Languages of Love. What surprised me about this book was that sex is not one of the love languages. I learned that my primary & secondary love languages were touch and words of affirmation; while my W's were quality time and acts of service. When I wanted to show my love for her I would touch her, hug her and hold her. Before the ST, she always thought I was pawing at her to get in her panties. I would also tell her how proud I was of things she accomplished, but she accused me of buttering her up to get in her panties. One the other hand when she would want to show me her love for me, she would cook me a steak dinner or she spend hours talking to me about stuff I really didn't care about. Then we figured out what each other was really saying and doing. That helped a lot.

The point is you need to try something different to see if you can cause a different response in your husband. If you like his changed response you need to give him some really positive feedback that will cause him to do it again. To know what positive feedback he needs may require you to force yourself to do and act in ways that are not second nature to you, but are changes you are willing to make to get the changes in him that you desire.

You are not going to change him, only he can change himself. But you can offer him carrots along the way to encourage his self chosen changes. It might push your limits, but if you want it enough you will be able to do it. At least that is my experience. 

P.S. role playing can be a great way for you to step out of your normal responses to aid your performing in ways that give your H the positive feedback he needs to change.

Good Luck.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Damn
How did I miss that MW had a book for Sex Starved Wives? That dynamic is unique. 
We read Sex Starved Marriage, I will get the other one ASAP. 
I'm reading this post and will ponder the rest of what you've said Young at Heart.

Bad Santa, I have read your posts as well. I am in a time crunch, and told DH that I would give him the opportunity of time and benefit of a doubt by not filling my head with **** that is likely to sway me into a downward spiral. That seems fair, so I am not reading or responding much. But your thoughts are appreciated. 

I am trying to be fair, yet honest.
Unfortunately even working on myself tends to cause problems at the moment, so I am limiting board activity until I am sure that I am being fair in my perspective.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> But if he initiates, he's being intentional. It won't be desire FOR me, but it will be out love, care, and of the knowledge that I have unmet needs.
> He's 61, I'm 50.


I'll leave this here as my final thought.... Schnarch and many others with a PHD suggest that the age of 60 has the highest potential for sexual pleasure. However the nature of this pleasure now needs to take place more in the mind than it does by physically stimulating the body's erogenous zones. The mind is where it is all happening! 

Like others have suggested (Youngatheart), it is important to understand that your husband is not going to change who he is at this point. You can't spend 60 years building a house and then try to redo the foundations. So how can you work with what you have and make the best of it?

It sounds as if you and your husband have a great relationship outside of sex. I would encourage you to explore the idea of making nonsexual intimacy a little more erotic. Take the idea of being in bed together and rubbing each other's back that is in a completely nonsexual context. Transition to doing exactly that but in the nude with a focus on being completely comfortable and relaxed and no expectations. Then once you both feel emotionally connected to one another see if you can allow yourself to become aroused simply by being relaxed during this moment. When that happens, share with your husband how good it feels. As this happens do not physically do anything to stimulate him aside from focus on being comfortable together and embracing, don't allow him to stimulate you physically either (perhaps even ask him to just avoid your erogenous zones in favor of gentle caresses all over). Allow him an opportunity to respond by him getting aroused and when he does ask him to share with you how it feels. Spend time enjoying helping each other focus on the idea of enjoying being aroused in each other presence while using nonsexual intimacy as a means to maintain a high level of comfort and relaxation. Allow this arousal to build for another 45 minutes or so until it becomes overwhelming for him and he is compelled to act on it. 

The idea there is that you are using nonsexual intimacy and a close emotional connection to stimulate each other minds. Avoiding direct stimulation to each other erogenous zones will help create desire as arousal occurs (as opposed to overstimulating and numbing it). In my opinion desire needs distance and this can be achieved by avoiding/limiting physical stimulation to a minimal as possible until it becomes overwhelming and one is compelled to allow sexual desire to take over. 

To some degree this type of intimacy takes place rather perfectly as a relationship begins and before intercourse has occurred. As a couple at that time you may enjoy making out while being very respectful towards each other's bodies and not directly touching each other's erogenous zones. Try and recreate THAT but now in the context of knowing full well at some point you can let go and be together completely with one another. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

badsanta, that kind of reminds me of part of what the book 'Love Worth Making, how to have ridiculous great sex in a long-lasting relationship'.
He pulls a lot of ideas (and cites) Schnarch.
I've tried to implement some of those strategies, and they work well. I could implement more, and appreciate the response.

Small update: We're currently on week five [iirc] of DH working 1:1 with our marriage counselor. I was involved for about 15 minutes of the last session to go over some things that had not occurred that needed addressed. It isn't just me holding DH accountable, and he is now finally becoming self aware and seeing where his non-action translates into neglect.

On my end, I am learning the art of grace and forgiveness, mostly because he has so easily forgiven me throughout our marriage, and also because he's learning a foreign language....he doesn't understand, but he's TRYING. I am also working hard to not make conflict scary. 

He has really stepped up and grown.
He is more proactive/much less passive. 

The best part is that we are working TOGETHER. Regardless of wins, fails or missteps, we are both actively trying to lean INTO eachother, not withdrawal. That in and of itself is success. 

I also realize how pissed off some of you are at me because it appears that I have an entitlement mentality. 
I won't apologize for who I am or what my needs are. 
I am not asking for more than I would be willing to give the love of my life. (Actually, I am asking for much less than I am willing to give.) If we walk through our marriage denying our needs and wants, we are lying to ourselves and our spouse. If we are vulnerable and share who we are, we win regardless of the outcome. It takes strength and courage to be vulnerable. It takes diffrenciation knowing in the end your may offer something delicate about you and it not be received by your spouse, or even acknowledged.

I turned away from my husband because he dismissed me. I regrouped and found strength to reach out again. That doesn't make me perfect, it doesn't make me a *****, and it certainly doesn't make me strong. 
It simply means I love my husband, my marriage and myself - and I happen to believe in all three.

Along those lines, I left my battle hardened heart behind and I am initiating again. 
I was told that line was too harsh - because it left out my freedom to express myself and be vulnerable. That ends up being completely accurate. 
I feel much more freedom now that I am initiating again. 

Again, thanks for letting me share, and for the responses.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> The best part is that we are working TOGETHER. Regardless of wins, fails or missteps, we are both actively trying to lean INTO eachother, not withdrawal. That in and of itself is success.


Once you get into the mentality of teamwork, that is indeed the magic sauce! And if you add to that the notion of being forgiving and practicing gratitude, you are cooking will all the right ingredients! 



Badsanta


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

workerbee said:


> Complete fair and accurate.
> I at least have the memory of having spontaneous desire, that helps.
> 
> Last night he told me he was amorous and wanted to be intimate.
> ...


Wow. I'll give my two cents. I'm sure it will not be well received by a certain faction of participants.

I have skimmed through this thread, and the only real impression that I have is that it is all about you, and not about him.
In reality, your sex life should be about the both of you.
You go on and on about how you want him to initiate and he makes the jump and does it.
Understanding (I hope) that Rome wasn't built in a day, your response:

"I also didn't find myself impressed with that initiation. It wasn't enough to compel me to get off the couch and go to the bedroom. I wanted a reason, a responsive feeling that made me wanna jump off the couch and have fun."

The messages we send subliminally are strong. There is no way he couldn't have felt that. It sounds like you did very little to help generate the kind of feelings that would provide an impetus to go to the bedroom. Are you not 50% responsible for that? It sounds like you do very little to provide an incentive and any kind of positive reinforcement to encourage his initiation. It sounds like he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. In other words, he's just damned.

Seriously, I honest to god can't believe anyone would demean their spouse by putting a huge flow chart on the wall. The other event that stuck out to me was the time that he comes home from work after a stressful day, you put a drink in his hand, set him down, and go for his ****. No intimacy, no discussion, no touching, no backrub, just go straight for the goods. If a man did that to a woman, he would be lambasted, and in this day and age accused of objectifying, rape or something else.

I don't mean to come off harsh, and I understand that your husband does not meet your sexual agenda. However, it takes two. It sounds like he is not secure about the sexual part of his marriage, and with the militant attitude presented here, I can see why. It sounds like he is making a solid effort to please, but it seems to be all one way. I wonder how long it will take for the resentment to build up on his part.

He is getting some counseling. Good for him. I think he would be better served not getting it from your former marriage counselor, but that's probably just me. You need a good dose of it yourself. Are you in counseling?

Sex should be something that is beneficial for both partners, not just something that gets done to one. It is sad, but I can see and understand why he is like he is.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

Back from the dead! LoL!

So sex should be beneficial for both partners....

He doesn't have desire.
He has NO spontaneous desire.

So what pray tell do I feed?

Turn him on and let his responsive desire come out?
WTF have I been doing if not that + 25 years?

At some point I shouldn't have to work so damn hard to get sexual affection.
I must be unlovable, unworthy, insignificant, unvalued, irrelevant, dismissed.
And, fwiw, it might make me an ass, but that flowsheet is dead on accurate.

To this day he still says he's making progress and doing things.....

But it's not sexual things.
The position that I am in: How do I gain love from my lover by requiring love?

I've tried to tamp down my needs for touch and intimacy a zillion different ways. His needs have been factored into my goals, that is the entire reason that I have attempted to change my NEEDS.
It's not possible to change my needs.
My sexuality is an integral part of me, my self esteem, self worth, my ability to cope and successfully live life.

Pile it on!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Welcome back!

I have not reread the thread so I'm going to ask, has he had his T levels checked?

Once his responsive desire is flowing, does he become involved and is sex good with him? If not, why? What is he not doing?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The option of cheating, has it ever been excersized? 

Have thee remained faithful?

Do you think he has doubts of this?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> Welcome back!
> 
> I have not reread the thread so I'm going to ask, has he had his T levels checked?
> 
> Once his responsive desire is flowing, does he become involved and is sex good with him? If not, why? What is he not doing?


His testosterone levels are above normal, they are actually on the higher end the last several years. 

He is just RESPONSIVE. 
If I meal plan, serve up a plate in front of him, after he takes a few bites he thoroughly enjoys his meal.
I am happy that is the case.
I am not happy to do all of the work to get him interested. 
We expect a LD woman to occasionally throw on some lipstick and heels and pretend to seduce her Man. 

Double standards imho.


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> The option of cheating, has it ever been excersized?
> 
> Have thee remained faithful?
> 
> Do you think he has doubts of this?


Yes, I have been faithful. 
I am honest to a fault.

I've told him of temptations to keep me accountable and let him see I am not intending damage, but my hurt and pain leave me vulnerable.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> He is just RESPONSIVE.
> If I meal plan, serve up a plate in front of him, after he takes a few bites he thoroughly enjoys his meal.
> I am happy that is the case.
> I am not happy to do all of the work to get him interested.


I feel your pain as my spouse is mostly responsive and has told me at times that it is my responsibility to get her aroused (of course for me the gender roles in relation to your situation are reversed).

One thing I will suggest is working out a schedule based on the best possible conditions for your spouse to respond easily. You would be surprised at how exploring different times of day can be a game changer. Perhaps he often has morning wood but never acts on it because he can't deal with the anxiety of trying to initiate or he wakes up instead worrying too much about how to plan the day. 

For example I have learned that my spouse can't get aroused in the mornings no matter what I try, so I avoid that time for intimacy (which is not always easy as I wake up ready to go!). While evenings work as everyone is going to bed, she struggles to get a good night's sleep afterwards as good sex leaves her feeling energized. So our perfect time is mid afternoons. She is glowing afterwards to enjoy a good evening. 

For you this may have completely different dynamics as the male refractory period and hormones can be rather powerful and leave your husband feeling tired/irritable/sluggish (as he may have used up all his brain's "feel good" chemicals). If that is the case, he may struggle with morning sex in the event it leaves his without the energy to get through the rest of his day. While you may be tired at the end of the day, that may be the ideal time for him if it helps him sleep afterwards. 

Another thing you may want to try is tantric sex, especially techniques that avoid or minimize the male orgasm. It is actually possible to make a male ejaculate without triggering the refractory period with special techniques. The result will leave him full of desire and with temporary anorgasmia until his body recovers enough ejaculate to try again for a full orgasm (probably hours later or the next day). Essentially doing this requires that you get him aroused and maintain that for a prolonged time with minimal stimulation. When he reaches the point of no return (about to orgasm) you stop all stimulation and he has to completely relax. If done correctly he will experience all the pleasure of an orgasm but without any muscle contractions or loss of erection/arousal afterwards. He can just keep having sex until he gets tired. 

This technique is also used with dominant/subdominant situations to keep the subdominant person inordinately aroused and sexually motivated. It may not work with your husband, but there is evidence that if you focus on arousal while avoiding orgasm that it does help improve desire afterwards. Even if you only manage to delay orgasm and help your partner relax during sex. So if when you get our spouse aroused you go straight to making him orgasm, try avoiding that pattern and focus on extending his arousal with relaxation techniques. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

workerbee said:


> To this day he still says he's making progress and doing things.....
> 
> But it's not sexual things.


What does he feel he's progressing with and do you recognize the same progress?

Is counseling still in the picture?


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## workerbee (Feb 15, 2018)

heartsbeating said:


> What does he feel he's progressing with and do you recognize the same progress?
> 
> Is counseling still in the picture?


Actually, things have improved at the moment. 
I am not counting chickens yet, we've been here before. 

But he is agreeing that if 
1. If don't see progress 
2. He cannot define/explain/point out progress, it likely did not happen 

I think he allows the battle of sexual affection to occur in his head. With the turmoil, he thinks he's been proactive without any actual action. 

I am not oblivious to his struggle. 
It's real, and I see and recognize it, and it gives me reason to give grace. Because I love him, he is trying to try, he loves me, and I want our marriage to work.

But there's an end to grace, and he's close.

But surprisingly he seems to actually understand and take responsibility for his action/non action. 

He was soooooo loving, tender and affectionate toward me the last two days. I would thrive with 1/2 of this effort! If he continues this much...I will be Kate Beckinsale next week.

Things are good, great actually. 

But I have been here before.

If he goes back and forgets and we start all over I just cannot abide. 
I don't trust him, but I am giving him another shot because I believe he CAN. His willingness to be consistent is in question. 
Only tomorrow knows, because I am not the searcher of hearts.

I am trying to be fair and honest. 

I think several posters have classified me as a *****, cold hearted and without good faith failing to recognize that I am completely INTJ and require actionable evidence to believe that work is occurring. 
If that makes me a *****, then that is exactly what I am. 
I call that self respect and integrity.

Crap, I am editing to answer the question about counseling. 

We stopped 3 or 4 weeks ago when I announced that I needed/required measurable results, not inconsistent attempts paired with 'I am trying, but.....'
There were also some unresolved issues from the past that I addressed that I won't speak about here.

End result?
I have inquired several times since then if he were meeting with/scheduling an appt......"why bother?" He replied....every time the last few weeks. 

He emailed the guy this afternoon expressing where he is, what he's trying to do, and inquiring if another session should be scheduled. 

So I am a skeptical yet hopeful.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

workerbee said:


> He emailed the guy this afternoon expressing where he is, what he's trying to do, and inquiring if another session should be scheduled.
> 
> So I am a skeptical yet hopeful.


It doesn't hurt to try different a different counselor/therapist. Over the years My family has been to quite a few and the knowledge we got from each was very different (each helpful). But after a certain amount of time with one therapist, progress seems to slow down.

If you enjoy reading books, you can also get really good recommendations from a therapist regarding more detail and coping strategies with a book that will be related to your situation. Combining therapy with reading will also help you get more out of that time as you can ask questions about something you learned from reading and get another perspective on how it relates. 

When it comes to books, many are not that good. But hopefully you will find one or two that are an eye opener and help you see things from a fresh perspective that begins to make a difference. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Young at Heart said:


> What I like about her approach is that she is a proponent of the 180. If something isn't working for you, change what you are doing until you get a desired response.


Agree with this big time. Assuming there is nothing medically wrong which she does cover in her books.

I also agree with her thinking that the LD partner should attempt to “just do it” a bit because unless your partner is lousy, sex is a pleasurable and rewarding behavior. I can say when my wife and I are having sex at least every other day pretty much everything seems better from my perspective; and if I feel better and have a better outlook on life and am generally more happy that transfers to her.

After many months of this then it becomes a pattern and when there is no sex for whatever reason for more than a day then it’s a problem for both people.

It might be worth your while OP to see if he’s not in the mood for PIV to see if he’s willing to take care of you with no strings attached. Sometimes my wife just doesn’t want the D but she’s perfectly happy to do something else. 9/10 I am down for that and it does the trick. 

I’d say it’s probably a bit harder for men to pull this off, at least it would be for me.


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## Jadedlilguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Uhmm....having ED or taking testosterone pills could be tough for the ego of some guys. They feel like less of a man. Just be patient and stop bringing up sex. Try to remember what turns him on. It doesn't mean he doesn't want you. If he didn't want and love you he'd stray, right?Just be kind some guys can be very sensitive with their manhood.


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