# Husband told me he does not want to work, ever.



## pink_lady

My husband was laid off about 10 months ago. He got the job (admin) through a family member. When that person retired, they got rid of him.

We've been married about a year and a half. I have a decent full time job but am trying to pay off all my old bills so I can start a business. We're both in our early forties.

He does the minimum necessary to keep the unemployment going, but it will run out soon. (when he first started getting it, he found the process so difficult that he announced he was going to stop calling in because it was too hard. I guess he expected I'd say that that was fine and I would just pay all the bills. Not!).

He wears the same clothes- or a robe- for days in a row, and has gained a belly. From what I can tell the great majority of his time is spent on Facebook, downloading music or watching movies.

He also spends time on his own personal projects (the arts) that he enjoys, which I think is great, but those unfortunately do not pay anything.

Supposedly, before the lay off all he wanted was time to finish writing a book he'd started. But he's barely worked on it at all being home every day for the better part of a year.

This isn't a situation where his job was his life and now he feels inadequate and depressed. He considers himself a creative artist and has never cared at all about having a traditional career. He spent most of his time at his job surfing the internet. But at least he went every day and made enough money to pay the bills.

He's shown virtually no interest in supporting himself, and resists any effort I make to try and figure out what type of job he can tolerate. I've tried saying nothing (because he gets mad, as if I have no right to 'nag' him about getting a job or to even ask what his plan is), and I've tried being as blunt as I can possibly be. Nothing I do or say seems to have any effect. It's like talking to the proverbial wall.

We live rent-free in a house his parents own. This certainly helps financially, but we are also beholden to them, which isn't ideal.

Today he told me it makes no difference what job he gets, because they are all the same, there is no job he will not hate. I said well, then we at least need to figure out a job you can do that will generate as much money as possible.

I'm starting to lose hope for a future with this man. I don't really want to leave him, but also don't want to be tied to someone who won't take responsibility for his life and just scrape by. 

Our relationship is good in most other ways, but a lot of the time I feel I'm married to a teenage boy who just wants everything done for him. It's impossible not to lose respect for someone in this situation. I've lost a lot of my attraction to him. Maybe he'll finally get a job, and things will improve. But damage has been done.

Maybe it is a double standard (men have to be strong and capable). But I would never ask or expect him to support me or think it was fine that I did whatever I wanted all day while he worked.

I blame myself for getting into this situation. The last major relationship I had was with a similarly helpless, entitled man. All I wanted was a man who was self-sufficient. Clearly there is something about me that leads me to choose these people.

Any advice appreciated, thanks for reading.


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## costa200

Have you made it clear that he will lose you if he keeps this teen routine going?


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## pink_lady

The closest I've come to that is saying something like, "I need to be with someone self-sufficient. If we don't want the same things (like being able to fix up the house, travel etc.) then maybe we shouldn't be together."


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## tm84

This is a tough position to be in with a spouse, but it sounds like he needs to be shocked out of his behavior. Along the lines of what Costa wrote, it seems that you need to be blunt that you are going to walk if he doesn't get his act together. Not only that, but you need to follow through with a separation and possibly filing for divorce. From what you wrote, I don't think anything less than you leaving is going to shake him up. Even that might not do it. You have already loss respect and attraction towards him, so he has a lot of work to do, already. 

Start by not taking care of him in any way from now on. If you wash his laundry, cook meals, clean, then stop and concentrate on yourself. If he continues to behave in the same manner, then you know for sure that it's time to go. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership with both spouses contributing to make a better life together. He hasn't gotten the memo yet.


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## EleGirl

I'm in a similar situation with aman who has done this for 10 years.

When we married he had a very good job but was laid off about 2 years into it. Since then he's done just about nothing except play computer games, surf the internet, and frequent virtual worlds for cybering and socializing. He too has been writing books.. a few fo them for all this time. None are finished. 

Don't wait as long as I have. Give him a deadline in weeks/months. Then divorce him and move on...

unless you are willing to support him and do most of all that needs to be done to keep a house, finances, etc, while he lives a live of leasure.

How did he support himself before you came along?


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## costa200

pink_lady said:


> The closest I've come to that is saying something like, "I need to be with someone self-sufficient. If we don't want the same things (like being able to fix up the house, travel etc.) then maybe we shouldn't be together."


I think you need to make it real for him. That behavior of his is unbecoming of an adult man.


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## tm84

pink_lady said:


> The closest I've come to that is saying something like, "I need to be with someone self-sufficient. If we don't want the same things (like being able to fix up the house, travel etc.) then maybe we shouldn't be together."


He's not getting it. Have you ever talked about what your goals are as a couple? You obviously need someone who is more involved in day-to-day tasks and contributing to household bills and other needs. It's admirable that he wants to pursue his artistic interests, but you are married and there are other things to consider. He's been getting a free ride for a while now (you're paying the bills and living in a home that his parents own), so he's set. He feels like he doesn't have to do anything. If he's serious about his creative efforts and being married to you, then he needs to find a balance and start contributing to your marriage. 

I'm involved in the arts and have never been without a "day job" my entire life. I make time for my creative endeavors and as well as help my wife with whatever we need as a couple and that sometimes means that I have to give up an art day to get something done for us or her. Your husband is only thinking about himself at this point. 

More to the point, it sounds like he needs a firm "I need you to contribute to your part of our bills by finding a job. I can not continue to work and pay all of our bills alone. If you are not going to help out, then we will have to separate because I will not support you while you do nothing to contribute to our marriage". Might sound harsh, but you need a man, not a coddled teenager.


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## Mavash.

Since this isn't your first time with a man like this I'd consider digging deep to find out why you attract teenage boy types to you. Fix that and it will be easier to kick this one to the curb.


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## Lon

I don't want to work either. But I have to in order to survive and also provide for those whose survival depends on me.

Sounds like he is burned out or depressed, he needs a good shake up and rewrite to get out of his funk, maybe a doctors visit to determine how much is physiological and get him the appropriate medication.


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## *LittleDeer*

I'd leave. I would have no respect and no desire for the man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

This is nuts,I'm a steelworker and do 65 hours a week.I'm a plow mule but I'm appreciated.
My wife just stared a job that will help but I make the money,they depend on me and I wont sit on my duff while mom and dad pay the rent.
I was on my own at 16.
Just insane,a man takes care of his family,if the wife works also even better! It helps out.
I dont like "men" who wont work if they are able.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald

pink_lady said:


> Maybe he'll finally get a job, and things will improve.


Maybe.

Hope is not a plan. Unemployment checks run out.

He may be depressed. He should see a doctor.

When his checks stop coming, are you willing to support him? I'm sorry his parents are enabling his behavior by not charging him rent although I understand it helps you.


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## calvin

Emerald said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Hope is not a plan. Unemployment checks run out.
> 
> He may be depressed. He should see a doctor.
> 
> When his checks stop coming, are you willing to support him? I'm sorry his parents are enabling his behavior by not charging him rent although I understand it helps you.


I agree,he may not be lazy,get him to the doctor see if it helps.
Saying you dont want to work any more can be a sign of depresson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal

pink_lady said:


> He considers himself a creative artist and has never cared at all about having a traditional career.


Ah, yes ... the terminally special and unique, who are only willing to die for their "art, craft, calling." Sorry for sounding sarcastic, but this really rang a bell for me. A billion years ago, when I was taking a college psych course, we had a similar case study.

These people have an inflated sense of their own importance. So he's a "creative artist." What has he done as far as his "art" is concerned? Does he work in an art studio? Is he planning to have a showing of his "art"? Is he networking with other artists in order to refine his craft and make money at it?

Uh, I doubt it ... Yes, this may be depression. But it may also be a case of narcissism. 

Sure, he may find a job. But why should you wait for him to discover himself by getting a job he feels he deserves? I think you get my drift ....


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## pink_lady

Thank you everyone for responding. Just 'talking' about this is helpful. 

Elegirl are you still married? He had a low skill type of office job when I met him that he got with the help of a family member.

TM84, I have tried a few times to have the 'our goals as a couple', 'what do we want for our future and how are we going to get there' talk. He does not want to participate. He is the type of person who sits and waits for things to happen. 

He can certainly be negative, but I don't feel that he's clinically depressed. He can get all kinds of things done, as long as it's for HIS project (he does local theater). But I will broach the topic of seeing a doctor.

Emerald, no, I will not support him. He'll have to ask his parents! I've told him that I don't make enough money to support both of us, and even if I did, I don't want to.

I've been scouring job ads, researching what will be in demand, trying to figure out what type of job would work for him, reading through all the tech college programs, making suggestion after suggestion...but he is a grown man! Why should I even need to do any of this for him? He blows it all off anyway. 

He's also told me he doesn't care to listen to me talk about my own job anymore. (I started a new position several months ago and it's been pretty stressful and a big learning curve) So it's not like I have him to confide in when I've had a hard day.

I just feel so incredibly disappointed. And pretty depressed at the thought of trying to find another partner at this age


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## Anenome

I was in a similar situation with my long-time husband. He was a hard worker during the first half of the marriage and it never occurred to me that his employment would be one of our biggest challenges. But he lost his job and eventually became comfortable not working. He worked minimally, not trying to better his situation, for literally over 7 years. It never dawned on me until going through that experience that you cannot "make" your spouse get a job. If they don't want a job, nothing you do, short of leaving them, will make them work. You can look up jobs, but you can't make them try at the interview. And you are right, the damage has been done. And it will be very hard if not impossible to undo it. I don't understand what some men will sacrifice in order to be lazy. I lost all respect for my husband as a man. Like you, I tried being nice, mean, blunt, avoidance, everything. Nothing worked. My divorce was final last week and I feel more and more every day like a weight has been lifted. I don't need to work full-time in order to support a healthy, adult male so that he can sit around the house day after day accomplishing absolutely nothing -- an arrangement that we never discussed, or negotiated. He simply took it. I never, ever agreed to that.

My advice, and I'm sure you've already done this, is to make it clear that this is not acceptable. KNOW that the longer it continues like this, the more it will become the norm and soon he will treat you like you're the odd one for wanting it to be any other way. You will think that the more time he spends like this, the more credibility your position will have, but it will actually get less. Sounds crazy, I know, but it's true. You won't have the energy to fight about it every day, so you'll only bring it up when you can't keep it inside any longer and then you will be treated like, "oh, this again ... ". You have my sympathies. I'd rather be alone than put up with that again from a man.


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## EleGirl

Anenome said:


> I was in a similar situation with my long-time husband. He was a hard worker during the first half of the marriage and it never occurred to me that his employment would be one of our biggest challenges. But he lost his job and eventually became comfortable not working. He worked minimally, not trying to better his situation, for literally over 7 years. It never dawned on me until going through that experience that you cannot "make" your spouse get a job. If they don't want a job, nothing you do, short of leaving them, will make them work. You can look up jobs, but you can't make them try at the interview. And you are right, the damage has been done. And it will be very hard if not impossible to undo it. I don't understand what some men will sacrifice in order to be lazy. I lost all respect for my husband as a man. Like you, I tried being nice, mean, blunt, avoidance, everything. Nothing worked. My divorce was final last week and I feel more and more every day like a weight has been lifted. I don't need to work full-time in order to support a healthy, adult male so that he can sit around the house day after day accomplishing absolutely nothing -- an arrangement that we never discussed, or negotiated. He simply took it. I never, ever agreed to that.
> 
> My advice, and I'm sure you've already done this, is to make it clear that this is not acceptable. KNOW that the longer it continues like this, the more it will become the norm and soon he will treat you like you're the odd one for wanting it to be any other way. You will think that the more time he spends like this, the more credibility your position will have, but it will actually get less. Sounds crazy, I know, but it's true. You won't have the energy to fight about it every day, so you'll only bring it up when you can't keep it inside any longer and then you will be treated like, "oh, this again ... ". You have my sympathies. I'd rather be alone than put up with that again from a man.


Spot on...


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## EleGirl

Pink,

Another reason that you need to act sooner than later on this is that, depending on your state divorce laws, you could end up oweing him alimony for at least a few years it not for the rest of your life.


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## EleGirl

recent_cloud said:


> depressed men, male depression, is misunderstood
> 
> by women
> 
> as illustrated by this thread


So why don't you educate instead of making such a remark and leaving it at that.

Also explain how she can handle this to get him back on her feet and out of this depressed state.


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## Runs like Dog

Occupy Wall St.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

pink lady:

Honestly, save yourself the HEADACHES, get a divorce (file NOW), and move on with your life.

Look, this isn't some 'oh he lost his job and now he's depressed' scenario. THIS is the way this man lives his life.

HE'S MOOCHING OFF HIS PARENTS IN A FREE HOUSE for cr*p's sakes!
He ONLY got his LAST JOB because SOMEBODY FOUND IT FOR HIM! He's a lazy, entitled, selfish (probably narcissisitic) man-child who is PERFECTLY CONTENT to let you work yourself to death, as long as you never shine the light of REALITY on his little dream-world and demand that he face reality.

It doesn't matter if the house is paid for, HE SHOULD FEEL OBLIGATED to pay his parents some money towards the rent! That's the way ADULTS operate their lives. It wouldn't matter if you DID make enough money to pay all the bills on your own, HE SHOULD FEEL OBLIGATED to pay 1/2 of them because that's the way ADULTS operate their lives.

So, if THIS is the way he has been drifting through life, and if THIS is the way that his parents have been supporting his laziness, his entitledness, his narcissism, then CAN YOU SEE *WHY* threatening to divorce him is NOT going to move him off his lazy entitled azz? Because he *IS* still a boy with mommy & daddy's money backing up his lazy azz. You're just the latest 'high-school girlfriend' to drift in/out of his life.



> I just feel...pretty depressed at the thought of trying to find another partner at this age


Pink Lady, you don't NEED another partner! Trust me, your ovaries will not FALL OUT if you live on your own. You might even find you LIKE IT! You spend your money on what you please; you save your money as you like; you spend your time however you please; you are beholden to no-one; and, best of all, you do not feel obligated to drag some lazy full-grown man's azz around and be his 'mommy' because he's too lazy to act like an adult. It's a win/win situation.

Get into some therapy BEFORE you get into another serious relationship. Don't know if you have a 'martyr' complex, a 'savior' complex, or are just co-dependent. FIND OUT. Educate yourself so that YOU are always able to take care of yourself: emotionally, spiritually, financially, physically, socially to the BEST of your ability.

After you know *WHY* you choose these types of men, you can FIX yourself and start making BETTER CHOICES from here on out.


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## aahnaagrwal

This is quite typical case you have.First i think you take better advice from your elder once. Tell them to convince your husband.But if he doesn't convince then don't try to compel him more. This will make him more angry and obsessed.So in your case another option you have to consult an astro guru. They provide you better cure regarding your problem.


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## Pluto2

I've so been where you are. My STBXH continues to refuse to work. He's been out of the work force now for so long, there is little he could get. All the jobs I suggested were beneath him. And he was convinced every corporation was evil. He lied, and deceived me for far too long (about a lot of things). Sure he has depression. I had to threaten to file for divorce just to get him to go to an MD. He got treatment, and the depression improved somewhat-but the jackass still won't work.
My advice is to leave. Yes, there is a possibility you could get stuck with support, but he's going to have to explain to a court why he is incapable of working, and that's a lot of trouble for a lazy jerk. I wish I could be more optomistic for your situation.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

My ex h didn't like to work either. I was the breadwinner in that marriage. He'd go out and spend thousands of dollars of money we didn't have too. Not only that he was unfaithful, controlling and abusive.

I left and a wonderful man found me. Now he's the breadwinner and I stay home to take care of the children.


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## DayDream

pink_lady said:


> The closest I've come to that is saying something like, "I need to be with someone self-sufficient. If we don't want the same things (like being able to fix up the house, travel etc.) then maybe we shouldn't be together."


That sounds pretty clear-cut to me.


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## DayDream

recent_cloud said:


> the intention of my post was to juxtapose gender related
> 
> overt depression
> 
> vs. covert depression.
> 
> as to how the wife can handle this
> 
> and get her husband back on her feet, well,
> 
> her husband is confused, listless
> 
> inert
> 
> feels useless
> 
> incapable
> 
> he's in the midst of a major personal **** storm
> 
> incapable of seeing the forest through the trees
> 
> all his wife can do
> 
> is suggest professional help
> 
> understand he doesn't want to be this way
> 
> and wait out the storm
> 
> because it will end
> 
> and there's either enough love
> 
> to weather the storm
> 
> or not.


My question is not relevant to the thread but, is this bad poetry or what?


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## EleGirl

recent_cloud said:


> the intention of my post was to juxtapose gender related
> 
> overt depression
> 
> vs. covert depression.
> 
> as to how the wife can handle this
> 
> and get her husband back on her feet, well,
> 
> her husband is confused, listless
> 
> inert
> 
> feels useless
> 
> incapable
> 
> he's in the midst of a major personal **** storm
> 
> incapable of seeing the forest through the trees
> 
> all his wife can do
> 
> is suggest professional help
> 
> understand he doesn't want to be this way
> 
> and wait out the storm
> 
> because it will end
> 
> and there's either enough love
> 
> to weather the storm
> 
> or not.


Checking out depression is of course something that needs to happen. But when the depressed person refuses to handle their problems year after year.... love does wear thin. There is no shame in coming to a point when a person can no longer carry the other person. She needs to protect herself from being dragged down into the depths of depression with him. This is usually what happens when a depressed spouse refuses to take care of their problem. Even depressed people have the responsibility to work on getting out of their depression.


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## thunderstruck

Could be depression...could just be his lazy-azz choice. I know a married couple, both engineers. The H got disgruntled, quit his job, and didn't look for another. That was 20+ years ago. They don't have kids, and she makes good money. She told me he sits around in his PJ's all day, doing whatever. As far as she knows, he has no good reason to not work.


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## Lavender&Lace

OP I'm sorry u r going through this. I hope you find the happiness that you deserve.


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## EleGirl

thunderstruck said:


> Could be depression...could just be his lazy-azz choice. I know a married couple, both engineers. The H got disgruntled, quit his job, and didn't look for another. That was 20+ years ago. They don't have kids, and she makes good money. She told me he sits around in his PJ's all day, doing whatever. As far as she knows, he has no good reason to not work.


What amazes me is that a person like him so completely checks out of life. They don't develop any interests out of the home, no friends, nothing. And then they don't do anything to get out of this.. not even with a spouse trying get them to take care of their issues.:scratchhead:


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## A Bit Much

I think this is depressing for the working spouse. How depressing is it to come home to a slug every day! UGH. No way could I stay attracted to my husband if he behaved like this. I'd be making it clear that I wasn't going to tolerate it much longer (maybe 2 or 3 more months tops) and that if things didn't change soon, I would be looking for my own place.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> As far as she knows, he has no good reason to not work.


He has a VERY GOOD reason to not work: She doesn't require it, pays all the bills, and ALLOWS his laziness! He gets to re-live his teen years (without the acne)!


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## EleGirl

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> He has a VERY GOOD reason to not work: She doesn't require it, pays all the bills, and ALLOWS his laziness! He gets to re-live his teen years (without the acne)!


The only way she can 'not allow' it is to divorce him.

No one can make a person get a job if they don't want to get a job.

My take on it is that the OP is here because she is trying to gather the insight on whether or not she can do anyting to get him to get a job. And if not the strength to leave him.

Leaving a spouse is a very hard thing to do for most people.


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## DayDream

Then tell him you don't want to be married to him, ever again. That sure is ballzy.


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## jaquen

I've been in your husband's shoes before, unfortunately. I am an artist, and unless you're an artist down to your soul, it's hard to get us. "Regular" jobs can feel extremely soul sucking, and it can be much more difficult for us to just buckle up and go to work that feels absolutely abysmal. I have so much phucking respect and admiration for people who just get into a "regular" job, make it work, and do what needs to be done. It amazes me, because so much of the "regular" work out there seems like stuff I'd blow my brains out doing for even a week.

I've made the same mistakes he's made. Feeling relieved to be out of the soul suck cycle, but if you stay home too long the hours turn to days, then into weeks, months, and even years. It's extremely easy to get caught up in a stagnant life, all while using your art as the ultimate excuse to do absolutely nothing.

I can tell you that, for me, it wasn't about work. The issues that led me there, and that I still have to fight if I'm not super careful, were much deeper than that. I would incubate and create a world totally removed from reality because, ultimately, I was terrified. I was very good at doing the "regular" job thing, at least that's how it looked from the outside because I was very competent at my jobs, but every single day was miserable. But when you pursue a life trying to make your art a money making reality, it sets you up for rejection, and can make you feel extremely inadequate. So you set up an unfortunate reality where you're repulsed by going back to the "real" world, but terrified to throw yourself totally, and completely, in pursuing the very fickle, very tough life of making Art a living. Some artists just hide, and don't recognize that they are detaching from life, and adding nothing of substance to the people around them.

The difference between your husband, and me, is that I am miserable during those times. Nobody could say anything to me that I didn't tell myself, because I felt like ****. I LOVED working, but I hated working on stuff that made me completely miserable, but was too damn afraid, lost, buried, and insecure to move forward. The idea of never working again was a nightmare. I'd oscillate between years of high productivity, and tons of work, and years of total stagnation. I don't know how it is to get stuck in that cycle and just be happy go lucky about it.

Let me tell you, everyone in my life was super supportive and understanding. First my parents, then my wife. They believed in me, respected me, and I was upfront about the struggles and my issues. So I can't speak from a perspective of someone who had the people in their life offer ultimatums. I left my day job years ago to concentrate on my career with my wife's full blessing and understanding.

When I've hit those times I had to pull myself out. I had to dig deep and get over the issues that were keeping me frozen in place. It's not easy, but it is necessary. And what your husband might not realize is that a life in the arts is even HARDER, and more taxing, than most professions. So if he thrust himself full time into making his art a sustainable financial reality, chances are he would be working even harder, and longer, than he did at the soul suck job.

Let me tell you, as someone who has been on the other side of your problem, you won't ever be able to shock him into reality. He's living on a totally different wave length than "normal" people. And he's lost in his stagnation, and feels totally comfortable, and safe, checking out of the "real world". He gets mad at you because he knows, deep down, he's acting in a totally inappropriate, wrong manner. There is a strong likelihood that he feels like total and complete crap about his life, his lack of movement, his failures as provider. He might know it, and not want to admit to you, or he might be clueless.

Best thing you can do, honest, is move on. These things can take a long time to come together, if they ever do. There are artists and "unconventional" people who get it together, snap out of the stagnancy, and make bold moves. And there are plenty who stay lost, and stuck, for years, and even decades. I've seen it all.

You can't drag him, badger him, ultimatum him into living the responsible, typical, "normal" life. If that's what you need, move on. I know that's easier said than done, but you've got to live your life in the best way you can.


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## BeachGuy

Anenome said:


> It never dawned on me until going through that experience that you cannot "make" your spouse get a job. If they don't want a job, nothing you do, short of leaving them, will make them work. I don't understand what some men will sacrifice in order to be lazy. I lost all respect for my husband as a man. Like you, I tried being nice, mean, blunt, avoidance, everything. Nothing worked. I don't need to work full-time in order to support a healthy, adult male so that he can sit around the house day after day accomplishing absolutely nothing -- an arrangement that we never discussed, or negotiated. He simply took it. I never, ever agreed to that.


Swap the gender references here and I can totally relate.


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## Viseral

Dang, I have a good job and make good money, but if I lost my job I'd flip burgers at McDonald's just to get by and be productive until i found something better. Nothing is below me. 

And I'd NEVER mooch off my parents for anything.

OP, you got some serious thinking to do.


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## sweaty teddy

no kids? Hell even if you have kids run run run.

you will not be happy with some one you don't respect and his inability to be an wage earner and contribute to the house hold income will always be there.


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## EleGirl

jaquen said:


> I've been in your husband's shoes before, unfortunately. I am an artist, and unless you're an artist down to your soul, it's hard to get us. "Regular" jobs can feel extremely soul sucking, and it can be much more difficult for us to just buckle up and go to work that feels absolutely abysmal. I have so much phucking respect and admiration for people who just get into a "regular" job, make it work, and do what needs to be done. It amazes me, because so much of the "regular" work out there seems like stuff I'd blow my brains out doing for even a week.
> 
> ....


You know, I see all of what you said in my husband's situation. His love is writing. He has many almost finished books. He can sit down and write several hundred page novel from start to almost finish without even having to go back and edit or rework. But he cannot finish one. 

I think he cannot finish it because that means he has to go sell it. He has no idea how to really do it. It's easy to find things that tell ya how to do this but we all know that more books are turned down a year than are ever published. So he never finished it. And like you say hours turn to weeks, then months then years.

But you see I too have an artistic streak and passions that I can never tap into because he has dumped on me every responsibility that it takes to raise a family, keep a house and pay the bills. Most of use work because we have to, not because we love it. We don’t love it any more than the ‘artistic’ person does… but we make ourselves go. Just like the ‘artistic’ person we can find a lot of other things we’d rather do. But the ‘artistic’ person does not give a rats a$$ about what we need or want. Nope it’s all about them.

If this ‘artistic’ person did not have a spouse to pay their bills and take care of everything for them what would they do? Well most likely get a job so that they can eat. There are many very artistic people who work a day job and do their art evenings and weekends. They are no less artistic than the non-functional ‘artistic’ person.

Instead of living my life the way I want to I get stuck in that job that people like you and him hate. I get no relief, no help, and no consideration. I ended up working 60-80 hours a week to support everyone, him included. To leave everything up to one’s spouse is abuse.

When one spouse decides that they are too ‘artistic’ and too ‘sensitive’ to participate, it’s really a very selfish choice.

Like in the case of the OP and in my case, not only do we have husbands who could care less about the harm they are visiting on the marriage but they really don’t care all that much about our wellbeing either. In their little world, they are focused only on themselves. 

And now the spouse who is forced to carry the entire load is left to make the painful decision to end a marriage with someone they married because of love.


----------



## jaquen

EleGirl said:


> You know, I see all of what you said in my husband's situation. He's love is writing. He has many almost finished books. He can sit down and write several hundred page novel from start to almost finish without even having to go back and edit or rework. But he cannot finish one.
> 
> I think he cannot finish it because that means he has to go sell it. He has no idea how to really do it. It's easy to find things that tell ya how to do this but we all know that more books are turned down a year than are ever published. So he never finished it. And like you say hours turn to weeks, then months then years.


Yes, as long as he kept it unpublished he didn't have to deal with the harsh realities of facing failure, and being held to a competitive standards. If he writes a novel(s) in private, he can keep his world, and his art, and his perception of how good he is totally and completely "pure".

It's a classic fear of success. 



EleGirl said:


> But you see I too have an artistic streak and passions that I can never tap into because he has dumped on me every responsibility that it takes to raise a family, keep a house and pay the bills. Most of use work because we have to, not because we love it. We don’t love it any more than the ‘artistic’ person does… but we make ourselves go. Just like the ‘artistic’ person we can find a lot of other things we’d rather do. But the ‘artistic’ person does not give a rats a$$ about what we need or want. Nope it’s all about them.
> 
> If this ‘artistic’ person did not have a spouse to pay their bills and take care of everything for them what would they do? Well most likely get a job so that they can eat. There are many very artistic people who work a day job and do their art evenings and weekends. They are no less artistic than the non-functional ‘artistic’ person.
> 
> Instead of living my life the way I want to I get stuck in that job that people like you and him hate. I get no relief, no help, and no consideration. I ended up working 60-80 hours a week to support everyone, him included. To leave everything up to one’s spouse is abuse.
> 
> When one spouse decides that they are too ‘artistic’ and too ‘sensitive’ to participate, it’s really a very selfish choice.
> 
> Like in the case of the OP and in my case, not only do we have husbands who could care less about the harm they are visiting on the marriage but they really don’t care all that much about our wellbeing either. In their little world, they are focused only on themselves.
> 
> And now the spouse who is forced to carry the entire load is left to make the painful decision to end a marriage with someone they married because of love.


This has clearly caused you an incredible amount of heartache, anger, and sadness. I'm sorry you made the decision to walk down this road for so long with this man. It sounds like it would have been best to leave long ago (which I acknowledge is very difficult).

Like I said, nothing another person can say, or do, can force someone to snap out of that space. There is usually, at some point, a "come to Jesus" moment with the artist; move forward with the tough, grueling professional pursuit of the craft, or let it go and get on with excelling at being "normal". 

I use to sustain my pocket by teaching and coaching acting. I use to tell people all the time that most people should NOT attempt to pursue art professionally. For the vast majority of artists it'll work out best if they can find something stable they enjoy, and do the art as a hobby. The only people I recommend actually trying to take the full time pursuit of art are those who have every single goal to turn their goal into a money making prospect, and who are totally miserable at doing anything but.

But that's not even the case here, because your, and the OP's husbands, were totally lost in a sea of immobility and stagnation. There is no excuse for it, but having been there I can definitely offer some insight into how it feels.


----------



## Zatol Ugot?

pink_lady said:


> He's also told me he doesn't care to listen to me talk about my own job anymore. (I started a new position several months ago and it's been pretty stressful and a big learning curve) So it's not like I have him to confide in when I've had a hard day.(


This is a big red flag for me. If he were single, then being the poor, misunderstood artist that sacrifices everything for his art would not be a problem. The only person he would be affecting is himself. But as a married man, if he is unable to offer you even the rudimentary levels of supporty that should be expected in a marriage, then I'm not sure how this would work.


----------



## Athena1

Another depression vote. 

Not like he's feeling depressed, but that he's clinically depressed. 

If he wasn't lazy before, I think it's probably medical. Obviously we're not doctors here, but he should go see one. 

That's not to say your struggle is invalid, and you should look out for you in all the ways that are being advised here. 

But he sounds like he's depressed. I once was unemployed for 4? I think? months. The first couple of weeks were great and then I became bonded to my couch in a very unhealthy way, I needed medical help to get back onto my feet by the end of it. 

If he's always been like this then that's a different story, though.


----------



## pink_lady

Thank you to everyone for all the input, it is much appreciated.

Nope, we have no kids.

I will try to get him to a doctor to get checked out. But, I guess my understanding of depression was that it was present all the time, not just when you're asked to do something you don't want to do.

During the time he's been unemployed my husband has raised funds for, acted in and directed a cast of 14 people in a play that was quite the success (on a very local level). He's now writing a new play and getting ready to start rehearsals for yet another. He goes out with theater friends, he's introverted but not a shut-in. This is all great stuff, I love seeing him do all that.

But like I said, local theater folk do not make any money, they do it for love. The pay when all is said and done is usually $150 or less for several weeks of work.

So I don't necessarily buy that he can be so productive when working on something he likes, but then sink into debilitating depression when asked to support himself with a day job.

But maybe I'm wrong.

I also wish desperately I did not have to spend most of my time and energy on a job I don't really care about. I want to start a business, and focus as much as possible on the two community groups I organize for causes that are my passion. But I would never attempt to make my husband carry the load for both of us.

I'm trying to prepare myself mentally for the possibility of leaving him.

Living alone doesn't bother me, I lived alone up until I was 37 years old. But I do want a man in my life who has my back.


----------



## Prodigal

pink_lady said:


> Living alone doesn't bother me, I lived alone up until I was 37 years old. But I do want a man in my life who has my back.


Well, at least one other person gave a similar answer to mine. Your husband thinks he is special; depression or other issues aside.

Regardless of my opinion, what piques my interest is this: Why would a successful woman, who lived alone until she was 37, want a man like this? You want a man who has your back. This man clearly does not. I dunno ... is he a project? Maybe you have a big heart for the underdog or see his potential; I don't deny that could figure into this.

But having your back? Nope. This guy doesn't have that maturity level, at this time, to do that.


----------



## pink_lady

You're right, he really doesn't. He seems oblivious to the effect the whole situation has on me.

When we were dating (long distance, I moved to another state for him) he was working and talked a good game about his goals with his writing.

He has his good points of course. We share a lot of the same views (political, religious, etc.) and like a lot of the same things. He is very smart and can be very funny. 

The overgrown teenager part didn't come out until after the wedding/he lost his job.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Pink_Lady:

Everything you put in your last post leads me to reiterate: he is NOT depressed, he is lazy, entitled and thinks he's SPECIAL. Google the traits for "narcissism" and see if they fit him. I wouldn't be shocked to find it so.

Stop wasting your money supporting this man. Sit down, make a budget for YOURSELF. Figure out how much you'll be able to save by NOT supporting him anymore; that money can eventually go toward starting your own business you want to start. Before that, though, the money should seriously go towards getting you some Individual Counseling. You deserve BETTER than this, and this is the 2nd man in a row who has expected you to support him!


> I blame myself for getting into this situation. The last major relationship I had was with a similarly helpless, entitled man. All I wanted was a man who was self-sufficient. Clearly there is something about me that leads me to choose these people.


Find out what's wrong so you can FIX IT. Then (and only then) you'll start making HEALTHIER choices.


----------



## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> Thank you to everyone for all the input, it is much appreciated.
> 
> Nope, we have no kids.
> 
> I will try to get him to a doctor to get checked out. But, I guess my understanding of depression was that it was present all the time, not just when you're asked to do something you don't want to do.
> 
> During the time he's been unemployed my husband has raised funds for, acted in and directed a cast of 14 people in a play that was quite the success (on a very local level). He's now writing a new play and getting ready to start rehearsals for yet another. He goes out with theater friends, he's introverted but not a shut-in. This is all great stuff, I love seeing him do all that.
> 
> But like I said, local theater folk do not make any money, they do it for love. The pay when all is said and done is usually $150 or less for several weeks of work.
> 
> So I don't necessarily buy that he can be so productive when working on something he likes, but then sink into debilitating depression when asked to support himself with a day job.
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong.


All of the above is new info and very important. You are right he does not sound depressed at all. He sounds like he has a life of leisure and gets to play all the time. And yes I consider what he’s doing play.



pink_lady said:


> I also wish desperately I did not have to spend most of my time and energy on a job I don't really care about. I want to start a business, and focus as much as possible on the two community groups I organize for causes that are my passion. But I would never attempt to make my husband carry the load for both of us.
> 
> I'm trying to prepare myself mentally for the possibility of leaving him.
> 
> Living alone doesn't bother me, I lived alone up until I was 37 years old. But I do want a man in my life who has my back.


Your feelings here make a lot of sense. Once you leave him you will have a chance to find a guy who will work with you.


----------



## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> You're right, he really doesn't. He seems oblivious to the effect the whole situation has on me.
> 
> When we were dating (long distance, I moved to another state for him) he was working and talked a good game about his goals with his writing.
> 
> He has his good points of course. We share a lot of the same views (political, religious, etc.) and like a lot of the same things. He is very smart and can be very funny.
> 
> The overgrown teenager part didn't come out until after the wedding/he lost his job.


Gads.. this sounds like what happened with me and my husband... he's so good at talking up the game.


----------



## jaquen

pink_lady said:


> During the time he's been unemployed my husband has raised funds for, acted in and directed a cast of 14 people in a play that was quite the success (on a very local level). He's now writing a new play and getting ready to start rehearsals for yet another. He goes out with theater friends, he's introverted but not a shut-in. This is all great stuff, I love seeing him do all that.


Has he ever even tried to take this work ethic into the professional realm and attempted to monetize his art?

If not, what are the excuses he's giving you?


----------



## Athena1

pink_lady said:


> But, I guess my understanding of depression was that it was present all the time, not just when you're asked to do something you don't want to do.
> 
> ...
> 
> So I don't necessarily buy that he can be so productive when working on something he likes, but then sink into debilitating depression when asked to support himself with a day job..


You're right, this isn't what I was thinking when you first described him. I'd like to rescind my depression vote.


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## MaritimeGuy

I like to consider myself an athlete. There's nothing I'd like more than to be able to spend hours every day doing physical training to excel at my sport. Unfortunately for me I'm not good enough to be a professional...in fact far from it. I have the drive but not the natural talent. So guess what...I have to work for a living. 

I get up every day and go to a job that I don't find particularly consequential. I work hard at that and do well and make decent money at it. It's not like the energy and hours spent at it don't take away from my passion. I squeeze in my workouts around work and my kids activities. So for someone to claim they're an "artist" and somehow, unlike "normal" people, working sucks away their soul really pi$$es me off. 

The reality is unless you have the right combination of natural ability, drive and luck you're probably not going to make a living at your passion. You're going to have to work a "regular job" and use some of your earnings to participate in your passion in your rather limited free time. Either that or marry someone rich who is prepared to support you. 

At 40 I don't think this guy is going to grow up any time soon. He feels too entitled.


----------



## Pluto2

He sure doesn't sound depressed, he just sounds selfish. Now granted depressed people do become self-absorbed, but usually it prevents them from doing anything. Here, his interests are more important than... well, you. I suppose its good to know where you rank in his world because now you can decide if that is where you want to be.


----------



## jaquen

MaritimeGuy said:


> So for someone to claim they're an "artist" and somehow, unlike "normal" people, working sucks away their soul really pi$$es me off.


Since I am the only person in this thread who approached this conjecture, I'll take this.

I have no idea why this would piss you, or anyone, off. I am an artist. I live in world of artist, all of whom are at varied places in their professional careers. Trying to offer a smidgen of psychological insight into how some of us work does not in any way, shape, or form belittle, besmirch, or diminish what other non-artists go through, think, or feel.

It amazes me how often people get in a tizzy just because an artist might try and verbalize how they feel. It seems to be automatic insult to a great many people just by the mere mention of our internal process.

Nobody said that artists don't work day jobs. The vast majority of us do, and we're in the place often of having to juggle two careers; our lives don't end when the clock at the day job finishes. So it's not even a case of most artists running around, like the OP's husband, and living flighty lives of fancy. It's a tough road for us, career wise, in ways most people can't imagine.

There is no shame in trying to explain the artist's mind, so again, for the life of me, I can't fathom why you, or anyone, would be upset about that.


----------



## pink_lady

He's never tried to monetize his art. It's like it's beneath him to care about something so banal as making money. And he wants his projects to be on his terms- without the requirement of pleasing a boss or customer.


----------



## Runs like Dog

He's not mentally or emotionally ill, he's just immature and self absorbed.


----------



## that_girl

I would tell him I don't want to be married then. 

That's a huge deal breaker for me. I'm not my husband's mommy. We both provide for this family.


----------



## that_girl

pink_lady said:


> He's never tried to monetize his art. It's like it's beneath him to care about something so banal as making money. And he wants his projects to be on his terms- without the requirement of pleasing a boss or customer.


So you provide him a home/food/etc so he can do his art.

Holy crap. I do art too...I would LOVE to quit my job and just do my art and stuff. But...that's not reality.

Stop paying for things you can live without. For me that would be internet, his phone, and cable TV. I can use the computer at work.


----------



## jaquen

pink_lady said:


> He's never tried to monetize his art. It's like it's beneath him to care about something so banal as making money. And he wants his projects to be on his terms- without the requirement of pleasing a boss or customer.


What a ****ing shame.

Classic cop out. He's abusing his art, and manufacturing "principles", in order to avoid dealing with the real life, competition, and potential rejection of his fragile world view.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

jaquen said:


> Since I am the only person in this thread who approached this conjecture, I'll take this.
> 
> I have no idea why this would piss you, or anyone, off. I am an artist. I live in world of artist, all of whom are at varied places in their professional careers. Trying to offer a smidgen of psychological insight into how some of us work does not in any way, shape, or form belittle, besmirch, or diminish what other non-artists go through, think, or feel.
> 
> It amazes me how often people get in a tizzy just because an artist might try and verbalize how they feel. It seems to be automatic insult to a great many people just by the mere mention of our internal process.
> 
> Nobody said that artists don't work day jobs. The vast majority of us do, and we're in the place often of having to juggle two careers; our lives don't end when the clock at the day job finishes. So it's not even a case of most artists running around, like the OP's husband, and living flighty lives of fancy. It's a tough road for us, career wise, in ways most people can't imagine.
> 
> There is no shame in trying to explain the artist's mind, so again, for the life of me, I can't fathom why you, or anyone, would be upset about that.


What makes me angry about it is the implication that if a person is not an artist somehow it's not a big a sacrifice for them to slog away at a job every day. For an artist it's soul sucking and they shouldn't be expected to lower themselves to do that. I think for the vast majority of us having to go to work every day is a sacrifice. It's absolute BS to claim it's more of a sacrifice for an artist than it is for us "common folk".


----------



## jaquen

MaritimeGuy said:


> What makes me angry about it is the implication that if a person is not an artist somehow it's not a big a sacrifice for them to slog away at a job every day. For an artist it's soul sucking and they shouldn't be expected to lower themselves to do that. I think for the vast majority of us having to go to work every day is a sacrifice. It's absolute BS to claim it's more of a sacrifice for an artist than it is for us "common folk".


That was neither said, nor implied, in my post. 

But it sure was projected quite well into it.

All of this anger is rather odd consider that, again, most professional artists indeed "lower themselves" to work regular jobs, AND they have a second, major career to contend with on top of whatever familial and social obligations they have going on in their lives.


----------



## Lon

Jaquen, I think the point maritime guy was making is that why would consider working more than one job "lowering yourself". That comes across as condescending. To me there is no such people as "artists" and "non-artists" we all have a creative streak it is just the level to which we practice honing that which differs. If you want to make a career out if your art that is your choice but don't suggest that people who choose not to can't imagine the struggle an artist faces having to, balance multiple career streams, because everybody has multiple things which they have to balance out.


----------



## pink_lady

jaquen said:


> Classic cop out. He's abusing his art, and manufacturing "principles", in order to avoid dealing with the real life, competition, and potential rejection of his fragile world view.


This is spot on, I'm afraid. Thanks for your input Jaquen. You definitely get him.

I understand what you are saying about soul-sucking jobs. I'm an activist at my core and organize a grassroots advocacy group. It feels like a waste of energy to spend 9 hours a day on something that is not my passion when there is SO much "real work" waiting to be done.

It just sounds from your earlier post as if you're saying only artists (and how does one define an artist?) have to deal with this struggle while the simple, common folk who don't know any better happily march off to the insurance office every day.

I know that's not what you meant though, you were writing about your own experience from your perspective.


----------



## jaquen

Dear God. There is so much projection going on here.

OK. 

Pursuing the arts professionally, in an attempt to make this a viable living, is an extremely tough endeavour. The work hours are long, the training is expensive and perpetual, the pay is often laughable, the chances are slim. You often put in years of extensive training, money, time, and effort that might not pay off in any major material way, _if at all_. You are your resume; there is no hiding behind a piece of paper, if you are rejected that's you. You put yourself out there in a very vulnerable, very personal way that most people can't ever even fathom. In my profession it's not uncommon to face more job rejection in a month, and in some pretty humiliating ways, than most people will see in years.

The "soul sucking" comment is being totally misconstrued. Most people are not artists, so whatever career goals they have are far, far, far more attainable. Want to be a teacher? There is a clear cut path. Have a dream of working in IT? Have at it. Always wanted to get into law? It's a tougher road, but it's very doable. If you chose to not work in the field you want, that's fine. But I guarantee you that almost any work you want to excel at is going to be, at the very least, accessible to you in a relatively realistic manner. None of this is easy, everyone has to work hard, but most career paths are realistically doable, and there is a bright, well lit road toward making them a reality.

Many artists want nothing more than to work. They'd work 16, 18, 20 hours at a job in their field. However the vast majority of artists making an effort to pursue their field will never even get the chance to make a sustainable living at this. They feel called, and driven, toward chasing a very fleeting dream. So yes, being in a non-arts job for SOME artists feels utterly soul crushing because all they long for is the chance to work hard, and make money off, what they are actually built to do. They would love to have their career chances be even remotely as accessible as say an elementary school teacher, a nurse, or an office manager.

But at the end of the day, for the vast majority, it's an uphill battle of juggling various day jobs, a career that more often than not produces little financial gain, which leaves people in a constant state of always being hungry for work, while trying to keep the "real world" from falling apart.

Never once did I EVER remotely imply working a "regular job" was akin to "lowering yourself". That was an implication that MaritimeGuy took from my posts, and I guarantee you that no such spirit, or attitude, exists in my way of thinking.

All of this drama is for naught. The OP made a post, I tried to give a perspective that might shed a little light, and that is that. If you people would like to go on twisting my words, and stuffing intentions into my finger tips, have at it.

I've said my peace on this subject.


----------



## Weakendwarrior

Interesting thread. I'm an artist (jazz musician) but have worked a day job I don't particularly enjoy for the past thirty years. I'm the sole breadwinner and I'm fine with that because my wife has contributed to our marriage in infinite other, in non-monetary, ways.

I never feel I have enough time for my "art" and that really tends to breed a bit of resentment towards one's day job. It takes a lot of time and to get "good" at art but most artists do it for love knowing the odds are against them ever making a living at it. It IS difficult having little time to relegate to working on one's passion when they're burnt from a sixty hour week. But life goes on.

Most "non-artists" (the only difference being they haven't the same PASSION for the particular artistic endeavour....) have a hard time understanding us for one reason or another.

On a lighter note. How does a jazz musician make a million dollars? 

Start with TWO million and keep playing.

Peace and out.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I knew someone's husband that quit working 12 years ago. They had been married 10 years then. At 22 years of marriage right before their divorce, he recently took 100,000 out of the bank and claimed it was his and does not want this to be apart of the divorce. Now she has to pay 10 years of alimony to ex h and had to pay 1/2 their assets. She's a physician and makes a very good salary. I don't know if this man was depressed or not, but he was squeeze every last penny out of his ex w fully aware of his actions.. He refused to work because he was lazy, she was hoping he'd return back to work and her love for him turned to hatred.


----------



## moxy

He sounds depressed. Is he seeing a counselor or taking any medications for this?

Maybe if you first address this problem, you can see if the relationship you thought you'd have with him is still possible.


----------



## pink_lady

I've done some reading and we seem to be a rather classic example of over and under-functioning. 

I read this: "Under-functioners often rely on others to manage things for them, have problems maintaining progress on goals, and are often under-employed. UFs are often seen as "having so much potential but wasting it" in the eyes of others, and can be thought of as taking less than 100% responsibility for life."

"Some common under-functioning characteristics are relying on others for advice on making decisions, communicating a sense of distress or need to others, self-sabotaging, frequently asking for or alluding to needing help, making unwise career, relationship, or parenting decisions, appearing to others as lazy or unmotivated, and being somewhat immature for chronological age."

So at least now I have a term. I would never have thought of myself as over-functioning, but I guess that's what I become when paired with an under.

I've read that the over must stop doing things for the under, and let the consequences happen. But you're supposed to let them know. THAT will be an interesting conversation.

I want to find us a counselor, though I can't really afford to pay for it on top of everything else. Should I go by myself first? How do people do this?


----------



## EleGirl

Might be a good thing to go yourself first.

Are you trying to fix him?


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## pink_lady

Well...I thought maybe I could fix him with the help of a professional?


----------



## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> Well...I thought maybe I could fix him with the help of a professional?


So you are into the fix-it thing in relationships.

There is a chance, a very slim chance. Try it for a while and see what happens. But give it a deadline so that if it does not work you are not in this same place 10 years from now.


----------



## moxy

A responsible artist would subsidize his lifestyle and work to be able to make his art. Refusing to engage in the real world, seeking patronage only, has consequences. If he cares about his art, he should be able to work at least 15 hours a week to be able to do it more freely...

I work to pay for my ability to create. It's responsible. It would be unfair of me to simple refuse to engage and only take from my partner forever...

Don't let him tell you he is above the real world. He may not want an 80hr/week job because his art comes first, but surely he can put in 15 hours per week?


----------



## AlmostYoung

EleGirl said:


> So you are into the fix-it thing in relationships.
> 
> There is a chance, a very slim chance. Try it for a while and see what happens. But give it a deadline so that if it does not work you are not in this same place 10 years from now.



Agreed on the slim chance of changing him. He's not changing unless HE wants to.

H is not depressed, lazy, immature, filled with entitlement or any of the other things he’s been accused of in this thread. He’s chosen to live his life on his own terms, and is happy with that. Monetary success means little to his happiness level… nothing at all wrong with that. 

It’s also not fair to say he doesn’t contribute to the household finances when you are both living rent free in a home his parents own. Shelter is the single largest living expense. 

Whether or not you are willing to continue with this set-up is ultimately up to you. Best Wishes!


----------



## A Bit Much

My husband has been off due to having sinus surgery last week, and just as I was leaving today to go to work he said he absolutely could NOT be a househusband.

Some guys just can't lay around watching tv and/or playing video games all day. It makes them feel unproductive. 

Food, utilties, gas... these all cost money. If this arrangement isn't agreed upon from the beginning, it's not going to work long term. There's going to be some major anger and resentment festering from the spouse who's out there busting their hump to provide for the two of them.


----------



## EleGirl

Phrixos Oidipous said:


> Most depressing thread ever! Seriously if your partner loses their job you should be starting to prepare to run for it. Chances of finding another job in an economy like this are slim. A man who failed to find a job after a period of time is a ultimate deal breaker no matter how depressed or desperate. I know I sound like gold digging but no one likes to be married to a unemployed slob.....


These day more than 8 out of every 10 persons who want a job has one. So while job hunting is a challenge it's not impossible to find a job. Spouse should support each other through periods of unemployment. When the unemployed person decides to do nothing… that’s the problem.

If my husband kept up the house, yard and farmed the land we have I'd have no problem with him being at home and not have a job.

It's the not contributing at all that is a problem.


----------



## pink_lady

AlmostYoung said:


> Agreed on the slim chance of changing him. He's not changing unless HE wants to.
> 
> H is not depressed, lazy, immature, filled with entitlement or any of the other things he’s been accused of in this thread. He’s chosen to live his life on his own terms, and is happy with that. Monetary success means little to his happiness level… nothing at all wrong with that.
> 
> It’s also not fair to say he doesn’t contribute to the household finances when you are both living rent free in a home his parents own. Shelter is the single largest living expense.


I imagine my H feels that the free rent is his contribution, though it's really his parents' contribution. And you're right, it's no small thing. We would be really screwed financially without it.

Unfortunately, I still won't be able to afford to pay for all our food, drug items, clothing, utilities, gas, car repairs and insurance on just my salary when the unemployment runs out.


----------



## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> I imagine my H feels that the free rent is his contribution, though it's really his parents' contribution. And you're right, it's no small thing. We would be really screwed financially without it.
> 
> Unfortunately, I still won't be able to afford to pay for all our food, drug items, clothing, utilities, gas, car repairs and insurance on just my salary when the unemployment runs out.


Can you support yourself on your income when his unemployment runs out?


----------



## pink_lady

I have some bills I'm working to pay off (car loan and credit cards) but will be doing pretty good once I have those knocked out.


----------



## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> I have some bills I'm working to pay off (car loan and credit cards) but will be doing pretty good once I have those knocked out.


So once those are paid you can support yourself and him?


----------



## Thundarr

Pink, It's a double standard but who cares. A man who won't hold a job and take care of his family is not a man to me AT ALL and doesn't deserve your respect or anyone elses. Your guy even sustain himself much less his family. 

Yes I have animosity almost bordering on hatred toward any grown man acting like a spoiled teenager. It gripes me too how unemployment has been stretched out which enables people to pretend to look for work longer. It only enables people to be out of work long enough to become disfunctional for the workforce.

No I have no empathy for this guy. I say get out of this and search for a man and don't settle for a child.


----------



## Thundarr

Phrixos Oidipous said:


> well i think that trend of men don't ever want to work again its quite threatening in the future. Labour participant rate in the US had been in a steep decline since the GFC as more and more people just run out of patience in finding a job and ultimately out of the work force. Its quite damaging to the economy and also the social fabric in a long-term. People say the economy is improving due to reducing unemployment rate but the truth is that half of that reduction is base on people leaving the work force like the husband on this thread feeling depressed, etc.
> 
> The bottom-line is that i can smell a looming future crisis within a decade or two.


Yea a lot of men are being enabled to not function in society by mothers and wives and government. Well mom eventually gets too old to help, wife gets tired of lazy arse and government runs out of money. There's no good end for this.


----------



## pink_lady

So...what is the wife supposed to do?

I'll be honest, I am frustrated and I have my OWN personal issues with myself, my career, my friendships, my aspirations in life etc. to deal with.

I don't think I have the energy to take on all my husband's issues too and 'make' him functional. 

If I tell him to get a job, I'm emasculating him. If I say nothing, I'm enabling him. I can't win.


----------



## Starstarfish

> It’s also not fair to say he doesn’t contribute to the household finances when you are both living rent free in a home his parents own.


That's not him contributing - that's his parents contributing. And if they get sick, and the house gets repoed, or they have to take a reverse mortgage out on it because of medical bills then what? Someone else providing a solution to a problem that you don't want to address doesn't give you any credit. 

You still aren't thinking about the long-term plan which is - if I lose my parents good grace or something happens to them - where are me and my wife going to live?


----------



## Thundarr

pink_lady said:


> So...what is the wife supposed to do?
> 
> I'll be honest, I am frustrated and I have my OWN personal issues with myself, my career, my friendships, my aspirations in life etc. to deal with.
> 
> I don't think I have the energy to take on all my husband's issues too and 'make' him functional.
> 
> If I tell him to get a job, I'm emasculating him. If I say nothing, I'm enabling him. I can't win.


I think you can win but he's got to help himself and you have to try really hard to see that line when help is not help anymore but becomes enabling. 

Necessity's the mother of invention as well as the mother of problem solving. If his life is comfortable enough then there's no motivation. I mean working does suck. 

I wouldn't play into the emasculating victom dynamic he's trying to sell. Maybe he even believes it himself. Make clear that you want to share your life with him but will not enable him while doing it (there is a timelimit on getting a job). You need him to be someone you respect and someone who respects himself. He needs it too but there's not enough bad to motivate change.


----------



## Thundarr

Starstarfish said:


> That's not him contributing - that's his parents contributing. And if they get sick, and the house gets repoed, or they have to take a reverse mortgage out on it because of medical bills then what? Someone else providing a solution to a problem that you don't want to address doesn't give you any credit.
> 
> You still aren't thinking about the long-term plan which is - if I lose my parents good grace or something happens to them - where are me and my wife going to live?


This is just common sense. Being a provider doesn't mean my mom will help us. That's quite the opposite. How many women want to be with a boy who doesn't provide?


----------



## Tigger

Just finished reading the entire thread! I really feel for you as I am in this same situation. See my thread about it.

He's been out of work for over a year now. Really doesn't want to work. And no, not an artist or anything like that. Just wants to play around watching tv and playing video games while I pay for it.

I did stop the cleaning, cooking etc. and now I just have a filthy house to clean up.

I did tell him back in August he needed to get a job or I was divorcing him.

Nothing has changed.

I'm also a bit older and not too thrilled about the idea of finding someone else.

It has really put a damper on my dreams and goals.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Originally posted by AlmostYoung:
> H is not depressed, lazy, immature, filled with entitlement or any of the other things he’s been accused of in this thread. He’s chosen to live his life on his own terms, and is happy with that. Monetary success means little to his happiness level… nothing at all wrong with that.
> 
> It’s also not fair to say *he doesn’t contribute *to the household finances when you are both living rent free in a home *his parents own*. Shelter is the single largest living expense.


AlmostYoung, I must say that I find your POV to be complete and utter nonsense!

He IS lazy, immature, filled with entitlement. He's 35+ years old and contributes NOTHING to living expenses. NOTHING.

He's NOT living life on HIS terms. He's living on his parents' and his wife's terms. I don't see his azz STARVING IN A GARRETT (attic) as we know PREVIOUS artists/writers have done because their art didn't pay. NOBODY lives for free! NOBODY. If *HE'S* not paying for his food, car, gas, insurance, electricity, water, clothing, meds, etc. then SOMEBODY IS. It's not like he's LIVING WITHOUT THOSE THINGS, oh no! He WANTS them, he ACCEPTS them, he ENJOYS them, he just doesn't PAY for them. (lazy sack!)

OF COURSE HE'S HAPPY! Who the heck WOULDN'T be happy if they could go around all day doing ONLY those things they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted, and didn't have to worry about contributing any work or money to their lives or a relationship. Yes, THESE PEOPLE are happy; they're called GOLD-DIGGERS...we warn MEN about them EVERY DAY.

If 'monetary success' means NOTHING to him, then WHY hasn't he encouraged his wife, Pink Lady, to QUIT HER JOB AND START *HER OWN IMPORTANT WORK *IN THE FIELD OF COMMUNITY ACTIVISIM???? Maybe because he isn't QUITE SO IMMUNE to 'monetary success' when 'monetary success' is only theoretical and not factual.

He does, IN FACT, contribute NOTHING to the household finances. HIS PARENTS are contributing to their finances by supplying a rent-free environment. HIS PARENTS. NOT HIM. Pink Lady and artiste-husband are there on HIS PARENTS' SUFFERANCE; which could END at any time. They could leave the house to a charity, they could decide to sell it and move to the Isle of Wight, they could decide to join a commune and give it to their new 'friends', they could decide to 'disown' artiste-husband as their son. They COULD DO LOTS OF THINGS that would leave Pink Lady and artiste-husband HOMELESS. SO HE contributes NOTHING!



> Originally posted by PinkLady:
> If I tell him to get a job, I'm emasculating him. If I say nothing, I'm enabling him. I can't win.


Telling him to get a job is NOT emasculating him. Allowing him to live in his teenage-fantasy world where he is an "artist" who doesn't get paid, an "artist" with no patron, an "artist" in NAME ONLY is what is EMASCULATING!


Allowing him to be a non-contributing, non-functioning, non-reliable, semi-adult in this relationship is EMASCULATING him.

Allowing him to DELUDE himself that he is NOT all of the above, is ENABLING him!

*


----------



## pink_lady

Tigger said:


> Just finished reading the entire thread! I really feel for you as I am in this same situation. See my thread about it.
> 
> He's been out of work for over a year now. Really doesn't want to work. And no, not an artist or anything like that. Just wants to play around watching tv and playing video games while I pay for it.
> 
> I did stop the cleaning, cooking etc. and now I just have a filthy house to clean up.
> 
> I did tell him back in August he needed to get a job or I was divorcing him.
> 
> Nothing has changed.
> 
> I'm also a bit older and not too thrilled about the idea of finding someone else.
> 
> It has really put a damper on my dreams and goals.


Tigger I'm so sorry you are dealing with this situation too. I know just what you mean about dreams and goals. When you are with someone who is PERFECTLY CAPABLE but does not want to contribute simple things others can do like fixing up the house or traveling seem impossible. It's a terrible position to be in. At least you know you aren't alone.


----------



## pink_lady

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Telling him to get a job is NOT emasculating him. Allowing him to live in his teenage-fantasy world where he is an "artist" who doesn't get paid, an "artist" with no patron, an "artist" in NAME ONLY is what is EMASCULATING!
> 
> 
> Allowing him to be a non-contributing, non-functioning, non-reliable, semi-adult in this relationship is EMASCULATING him.
> 
> Allowing him to DELUDE himself that he is NOT all of the above, is ENABLING him!
> 
> *


SGW, I absolutely agree! Spot on.

We have had another talk, the unemployment money is almost gone, he seems to get that he HAS to bring money in and he has found a job listing he's actually interested in and qualified for. We'll see what happens. Hopefully if that one doesn't work out he won't use that as an excuse to stop trying.

Either way, I will not support him and am fully prepared to move out if it comes to that. I've even researched all the apartments near my workplace and have chosen one.


----------



## pink_lady

Someone asked Tigger (who at the time had been supporting herself and her husband for several months with no financial or household help from him- though she had become severely depressed) if she was neglecting her husband sexually- and that maybe that was why he was too down on himself to get a job.

Really?


----------



## Thundarr

pink_lady said:


> SGW, I absolutely agree! Spot on.
> 
> We have had another talk, the unemployment money is almost gone, he seems to get that he HAS to bring money in and he has found a job listing *he's actually interested in* and qualified for. We'll see what happens. Hopefully if that one doesn't work out he won't use that as an excuse to stop trying.
> 
> Either way, I will not support him and am fully prepared to move out if it comes to that. I've even researched all the apartments near my workplace and have chosen one.


Enjoying a job or being interested in it is merely a luxury. A luxury normally afforded to people who are willing to work a crap job first.


----------



## Corpuswife

It doesn't sounds like he cares and with that....no change will take place. I am afraid you are on your own. Either leave and be on your own and stay and be on your own. 

Things won't be changing anytime soon. Perhaps make yourself a plan and stick by it. If he isn't contributing to the relationship....why stay?


----------



## Tigger

pink_lady said:


> Someone asked Tigger (who at the time had been supporting herself and her husband for several months with no financial or household help from him- though she had become severely depressed) if she was neglecting her husband sexually- and that maybe that was why he was too down on himself to get a job.
> 
> Really?


Stuff like that is just ridiculous. If anyone actually did that, I would question their mental faculties. That sounds like something a teen would do.


----------



## Tigger

pink_lady said:


> SGW, I absolutely agree! Spot on.
> 
> We have had another talk, the unemployment money is almost gone, he seems to get that he HAS to bring money in and he has found a job listing he's actually interested in and qualified for. We'll see what happens. Hopefully if that one doesn't work out he won't use that as an excuse to stop trying.
> 
> Either way, I will not support him and am fully prepared to move out if it comes to that. I've even researched all the apartments near my workplace and have chosen one.


I really hope he follows through and gets a job.


----------



## opensesame

Stuff like this drives me crazy because it gives men a bad name. I know far too many man-boys like that. 

I hope things get better for you, one way or the other.


----------



## Thundarr

recent_cloud said:


> setting aside the megaphone dialogue
> 
> *she doesn't 'allow' him to be or do* a damned thing
> 
> every bad thing that happens in a relationship
> 
> is the product of two people


Holding someone accountable isn't complicated and that's what SGW was talking about. If a man won't keep a job and the woman stays in the relationship then she's allowing her life to be what it is.


----------



## Starstarfish

So - what is the worth of a man proscribed by?

I'm saddened by all of the new psychoanalysis that says that holding men accountable for being involved and engaged in their own lives, rather than letting everyone including their parents take care of them when they are full grown adult men is okay. 

I don't think all of the labeling of it being "hurtful" and "emasculating" to desire men to do their part and live up to their responsibilities is doing society any favors. Self-esteem is only worth so much when you and your children are starving.


----------



## pink_lady

recent_cloud said:


> the worth of a man
> 
> is not proscribed by his employment
> 
> i'm saddened by men who define their worth
> 
> by their job, or lack thereof,
> 
> and am angered by their mates
> 
> who perpetuate such hurtful nonsense


I don't think I ever indicated that I thought his only worth was in bringing home money to pay bills. Clearly, if I was only interested in money I would not have sought out a 41 year old man making $30k per year.

And it's not about the fact that he's a man who doesn't want to work. This is not about gender roles. I would see the situation no differently if the genders were reversed.


----------



## Thundarr

recent_cloud said:


> the worth of a man
> 
> is not proscribed by his employment
> 
> i'm saddened by men who define their worth
> 
> by their job, or lack thereof,
> 
> and am angered by their mates
> 
> who perpetuate such hurtful nonsense


The worth of a man is defined by a lot of things and being able to *provide and protect are two of the important ones*. 

- I don't know any women who are looking for "stay at home" dad. 
- I don't know any women to think a man without a job is as good as the same man with a job.
- There's a term for that called a scrub. (which I didn't create). 

Trust me, as years pass and he's not taking care of business, he'll be the one thinking he's a failure. Go ahead and give some young guy a pass and tell them it's ok but you'll be setting them up for a hard self esteem fall later.


----------



## Anenome

recent_cloud said:


> the worth of a man
> 
> is not proscribed by his employment
> 
> i'm saddened by men who define their worth
> 
> by their job, or lack thereof,
> 
> and am angered by their mates
> 
> who perpetuate such hurtful nonsense


I agree, it should not matter specifically what his job is but rather his work ethic. And a man's worth *is* proscribed by taking advantage of his wife in order to nurture his poor work ethic.


----------



## Viseral

Bleh, like it or not, men and women are genetically hard-wired in different ways. 

Women are hard-wired to seek men who are good protectors and providers (hypergamy), and men are hard wired to seek fertile women who are good nurturers (polygamy).

There is nothing wrong with this. While it may be fashionable and politically correct to believe otherwise, to deny this is a denial of nature and reality. We are driven by our subconscious biology more than we realize.

The OP's husband is refusing to provide, and as a result she's losing attraction for him. That's nature, and if he wishes to keep his wife, then he'd better step up.


----------



## Thundarr

Viseral said:


> Bleh, like it or not, men and women are genetically hard-wired in different ways.
> 
> Women are hard-wired to seek men who are good protectors and providers (hypergamy), and men are hard wired to seek fertile women who are good nurturers (polygamy).
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this. While it may be fashionable and politically correct to believe otherwise, to deny this is a denial of nature and reality. We are driven by our subconscious biology more than we realize.
> 
> *The OP's husband is refusing to provide, and as a result she's losing attraction for him. That's nature, and if he wishes to keep his wife, then he'd better step up.*


:iagree:
There are individual exceptions but this is the norm over the globe.
OP's husband won't be marketable to women looking for a man.
His options will become fewers as the years pass too.


----------



## Tigger

Thundarr said:


> The worth of a man is defined by a lot of things and being able to *provide and protect are two of the important ones*.
> 
> - I don't know any women who are looking for "stay at home" dad.
> - I don't know any women to think a man without a job is as good as the same man with a job.
> - There's a term for that called a scrub. (which I didn't create).
> 
> Trust me, as years pass and he's not taking care of business, he'll be the one thinking he's a failure. Go ahead and give some young guy a pass and tell them it's ok but you'll be setting them up for a hard self esteem fall later.



Exactly, even taking gender out it. People really aren't too keen on people sitting around doing nothing expecting someone else to foot the bill for them.

Imagine having a room mate that quit their job and refused to work or contribute. It just makes the situation unequal.

Imagine being expected to work and get no pay or expecting pay for no work.

In a relationship of any kind, people are expected to contribute in some way. 

If a woman stays at home and doesn't work, there is the expectation to keep the house clean and provide for the man in those ways. If she doesn't, it won't take long for the man to become resentful and fed up.


----------



## pink_lady

Well, I've discovered in the last few days that my H is a classic passive-aggressive (as was my father). This goes a long way in explaining our situation with the unemployment and lots of other things.

Emotionally he is a child (or rebellious teenager) brimming with covert hostility who refuses to take responsibility for anything, hates any type of expectations or authority placed on him (jobs come with both those things) and must continually prove he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do so he can pretend he is in control. 

He is always the victim, and nothing is his fault.

He knows it is very important to me that he get a job- therefore, he is making damn sure it doesn't happen. 

He hates his dependence on me (and his parents, who were controlling, physically abusive and authoritarian and who screwed him up in the first place, but whose house we are living in) so he is punishing me for it.

P.A's most often go for highly empathetic people, who hate to see others suffer. Guess what my passion is: animal rights. My mother was the ultimate nurturer who slowly became angry and passive aggressive herself after years of being trapped with a man who refused to meet her or her children's emotional needs. I am turning into her.

The unemployment money is set to finally run out in a couple weeks or so. After the whole 'fiscal cliff' thing, the money stopped temporarily and he thought he was cut off. He said to me, "I have a problem and I don't know what to do." He acted as if he was bewildered at this turn of events and had no idea the money would ever stop coming. It was bizarre. He kept saying he was "entitled" to more unemployment money. He told me there were bills due and he didn't have enough to cover them and he had no idea how they would get paid.

I guess he was waiting for me to volunteer to pay them so he didn't have to ask me for the money, I have no idea.

I'm curious (at this point in a detached way) to see what my H will do. I suggested he could borrow from his parents (which I would have thought would jolt him into reality as he always tells me how much he hates asking them for anything) and he said he would if he had to.

I am getting myself into individual counseling if my insurance will pay for it (here's hoping) and planning my eventual exit. 

I am sad and disgusted, with him and with myself, but at least I feel I have a handle on why I've been so unhappy and why he does what he does. This forum has really helped save my sanity. Thank you to all.


----------



## Thundarr

I have to agree with you pink. He never learned to solve life problems and he's trying to put the blame anywhere it may land. Regardless of fault, he's the only one who can fix himself now. 

His parents likely provided a safety repeatedely and they'll keep doing it. They're fed up but they participate and keep on enabling him (hence living with them).

It sucks that he's not the man you need but you can't change him. Sounds like you know that. The question is when is it enough. When do you let the dream die.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Hey, Pink! We're glad you feel like you're getting support and understanding at TAM while you figure things out in your life!



> I am getting myself into individual counseling if my insurance will pay for it (here's hoping) and planning my eventual exit.


I hope your insurance WILL cover it but, if not, try to think of other solutions that will help you out. Call a women's shelter and ask for referrals/recommendations. I believe that you are being FINANCIALLY abused by your H and would qualify for their services. And, of course, giving a financial donation back to them in the future when you're in a better position would be wonderful.

Since I don't know where you live, I wonder if there are any universities near you that offer a Masters/PhD program in psychology. If there are, you can contact their Psychology Dept. and see if they have help available. People working on their Masters/Doctorate *DO* need to have real, live patients with whom to interact, practice, etc. Maybe you could find something affordable there.

Maybe an organization for Psychologists in your state/area/country would be able to help you find low-cost counseling help.

Counseling through a church may be available to you at an inexpensive cost, too.


> I am sad and disgusted, with him and with myself


Sad and frustrated with yourself, I can understand. No reason to be disgusted with yourself. You made a bad choice, but AS SOON AS YOU REALIZED it was bad, you began gathering information, making plans, moving forward. THOSE ARE ALL GOOD THINGS!!!

The only reason to be disgusted is if you STAYED in this bad place, griped about it endlessly, let yourself become a martyr to your marriage instead of a savior to your sanity.

We're with you, PinkLady!


----------



## Wiserforit

pink_lady said:


> Clearly there is something about me that leads me to choose these people.
> 
> Any advice appreciated, thanks for reading.


You have called it passive aggressive, but covert aggressive is the better description, and you would benefit from the book :

In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People. By Dr. George Simon. Get the paperback on Amazon dot com, most recent edition. It is brilliant.

Those types can spot us (you and me) at a distance, and target us because our conscience, kindness, and trusting nature makes us easy for them to manipulate. 

They can be charming and glib because they are actors. When they meet us, they go through an evaluation phase where they learn what buttons to push. What works on us. Then they use them. 

The main thing you need to learn is how to watch actions and discount words. They are experts at doing the opposite of what they are saying. If you ask them to get you a diet coke, they'll return with a sugar pepsi and say that they thought you would like that better. Instead of listening to them, just see with your eyes that this is someone who will do the opposite of what you ask.

The other thing is to start using your radar. Learn to trust your gut instincts. There will have been red flags. But you allowed them to be explained away. Because you are trusting to the point of gullibility. Projecting your own conscience on other people. So it is hard for you to accept there are bad people who take advantage of you.

This book will teach you every manipulative trick they use by name. It is amazing how once you learn this you can spot these people right away. They are more like machines than people. It's pathetic once you see through them because they're going to keep using the same tactics again and again and again, even after they no longer work on you. They have almost no other means of interacting with people.


----------



## Pluto2

Pink,
I have been exactly where you are. My STBXH started out as an artist, then stopped for about ten years to get a job with a paycheck when we decided to have children. He was fired from the jobe (with good cause), got another job and quit after a couple of months. The entire time we were together he always "did" something. I told him when he quit the last job that I would support his return to the arts, but he needed to get a part-time job to help with bills. I was assured for monhs that this would happen. It didn't. He started changing his story about why he was fired to make himself a victim. He lied about looking for work. Despite the fact that I told him directly, that I resented his careless behavior, and by careless I mean no regard for the hoops I was jumping through to keep the bills paid, the children cared for, and the house up and running, he did nothing. He still does nothing, only now he does nothing somewhere else. I permitted the situation to continue for too long. The only action he took in response to my attempts to draw a line in the sand, was to engage in multiple EA/PA. I guess I had hoped that our family would mean enough to him that he woud make some effort. We didn't. 

If you have made your line in the sand, and your partner doesn't change, or doesn't attempt to change-don't move your line. Take a deep breath and move on.


----------



## DrDavidCOlsen

In situations like this there are very few options. Too often this shifts into a powerful over responsible -- under responsible dance which we talk about in the Couples Survival Workbook. The only way to shift this type of dance is through self definition. Do not try to change the other. Rather - take a position and hold onto it. THis is very difficult to do non reactively and may require the help of a good marital therapist
David Olsen, Ph.D.LMFT


----------



## matt82

It's funny that many wives get out of the workforce as quickly as they can after marriage, and no one seems to say anything about it. But then when a MAN does it... OH HOW COULD HE!!! What a lazy, worthless slob! I'll bet he's manipulative too! He might even be abusive one day! Sweetheart, you need to draw a line in the sand and leave his ass!

Then to add insult to injury, if the OP did leave him, SHE could be ordered to pay alimony to support him sitting on his ass, surfing the web all day.

Equality... ain't that a *****!

I'm not saying that the guy shouldn't get a job, but I think it is funny that if a guy was on here complaining about his lazy, good-for-nothing wife, he'd be encouraged to be more "understanding" and that maybe he should work HARDER to fulfill her emotional needs.

Then if he does get a job that takes him out of the home more, she complains that he doesn't do enough to help around the house. He isn't willing to "Man Up," so she feels validated in her decision to start looking for other schmucks.

Marriage is a raw deal all around for men, and they are waking up.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

> if a guy was on here complaining about his lazy, good-for-nothing wife, he'd be encouraged to be more "understanding" and that maybe he should work HARDER to fulfill her emotional needs.


That's YOUR opinion and you're entitled to it, BITTER as it is! 

Do NOT presume to speak for ME. If H & W had an understanding that BOTH would be working after the marriage, then I would be ALL OVER his butt to get his wife working or leave her ass if it was a deal-breaker!


> Marriage is a raw deal all around for men, and they are waking up.


It's only a "raw deal" if you let it be!

Head over to the Men's Clubhouse; you'll find SOME men who agree with you, but the vast majority of men over there will say you're projecting YOUR bitter unhappiness onto everyone else.


----------



## matt82

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> It's only a "raw deal" if you let it be!


I'll agree with you here.

During my 5 year marriage, I started working two jobs so that my ex could stay home with our son, and apparently, enjoy her "play time" with other men.

I learned I was getting a "raw" deal... literally, as I ended up on the receiving end of a nasty herpes outbreak.

Marriage ended and now I live for me and my son, and finally have peace in my life.

Marriage: Not in America... not for me! Proud to be going my own way!


----------



## Thundarr

matt82 said:


> I'll agree with you here.
> 
> During my 5 year marriage, I started working two jobs so that my ex could stay home with our son, and apparently, enjoy her "play time" with other men.
> 
> I learned I was getting a "raw" deal... literally, as I ended up on the receiving end of a nasty herpes outbreak.
> 
> Marriage ended and now I live for me and my son, and finally have peace in my life.
> 
> Marriage: Not in America... not for me! Proud to be going my own way!


Matt, sorry your ex left you with such a bad taste. It is a double standard but just one of many. You likely can spot warning signs a mile away and will find someone with more character next time.

Back to the double standard thing. Fact is a woman who wants to be a SAHM will find plenty of guys interested who are ok with that. A man who wants to be a SAHD however will have no one knocking at the door. So whether it's fair or not, it's assumed that dad's planning to provide. I think I just said the same thing you did just less mad about it. My wife has always worked and hasn't cheated but I've always told her she works because she wants to and not because we need her to.


----------



## pink_lady

matt82 said:


> It's funny that many wives get out of the workforce as quickly as they can after marriage, and no one seems to say anything about it. But then when a MAN does it... OH HOW COULD HE!!! What a lazy, worthless slob! I'll bet he's manipulative too! He might even be abusive one day! Sweetheart, you need to draw a line in the sand and leave his ass!
> 
> Then to add insult to injury, if the OP did leave him, SHE could be ordered to pay alimony to support him sitting on his ass, surfing the web all day.
> 
> Equality... ain't that a *****!
> 
> I'm not saying that the guy shouldn't get a job, but I think it is funny that if a guy was on here complaining about his lazy, good-for-nothing wife, he'd be encouraged to be more "understanding" and that maybe he should work HARDER to fulfill her emotional needs.
> 
> Then if he does get a job that takes him out of the home more, she complains that he doesn't do enough to help around the house. He isn't willing to "Man Up," so she feels validated in her decision to start looking for other schmucks.
> 
> Marriage is a raw deal all around for men, and they are waking up.


Matt, sorry this happened to you. You married thinking you were entering a loving partnership but ended up with a crappy deal, as did I.

A. I would never cheat on my husband, actually he is the one spending all his time gushing over other women online, staying out late, guarding his computer like it contains state secrets and receiving questionable text messages from 20-something girls. 

B. We have no kids. Therefore, no one needs to stay home to care for them. (We have a cat, but my H won't feed her). He does not do any more around the house than he did when we were both working full time (actually, it became clear after I moved in that he in fact expected me to do all the housework and grocery shopping).

I've worked very hard redecorating the house (that I have no claim to since his parents own it- stupid me). I've spent hours and hours painstakingly removing wallpaper, scraping, priming, painting, replacing light fixtures and knobs, etc. etc. I paid for everything. All I asked him to do was paint one corner I could not reach. He made me wait MONTHS. When he finally did it, he slopped the paint up onto the ceiling and made sure it looked like crap. Classic passive-aggressive behavior, designed to ensure I never dare ask for his help again. This is who he is.

I never, ever agreed to support him while he pursued his theater interests, and never would agree to that even if I made enough money that that is even a possibility.

C. To me this issue of one person doing whatever the hell they want while the other works their a$$ off has less to do with gender roles, and more to do with the problem of child-like, dependent adults who use others so they can coast through life with as little effort as possible. If I was a guy, I would not put up with that from a woman who was perfectly able to work, but would rather shop or watch soap operas or play video games all day either! I've seen several posts from men in my same situation and I very much empathize with them.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

> A man who wants to be a SAHD however will have no one knocking at the door.


Not true! I have known TWO women with SAHHs.

1.) A woman I graduated high-school with. Very quiet, mature, intelligent girl. She became an attorney and her H was a SAHD to their daughter.

2.) A woman I worked with. She had a college education, her husband did not. She had a better-paying job, better benefits, more career opportunity. They had 2 sons and he was a SAHD to the 2 boys. Lest you think he is some kind of a feckless doormat, he was a former U.S. Marine. I'll bet his boys had a kick-ass FUN childhood with him (climbing, exploring, all kinds of dare-deviltry!)

This couple used simple logic: they wanted the boys to have a parent home FULL-TIME until school-age. She had better income earning power and better prospects. Thank God he wasn't SO CAUGHT up in 'societal expectations' that he couldn't see the wisdom of HER staying employed instead of him. Plus, the boys got a helluva role model (does laundry, dishes, vacuums, cooks, shoots guns, can kill you with his bare hands!)

I forgot, there was a third, but (like Pink Lady) HER husband REFUSED to go to work!


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Marriage: Not in America... not for me! Proud to be going my own way!


Matt: your XW IS a 2-timing, conniving 'ho; no getting around that. It is a shame when honest people are hurt by the actions of others.

But painting all women (or all American women as your posting seems to imply) as 2-timing, conniving 'hoes, is INSULTING to ALL WOMEN (especially American women).

My STBXH is a raging a-hole, but that doesn't mean I think ALL men or even all AMERICAN men are a-holes. Some are, for sure, but not ALL.


----------



## matt82

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Matt: your XW IS a 2-timing, conniving 'ho; no getting around that. It is a shame when honest people are hurt by the actions of others.
> 
> But painting all women (or all American women as your posting seems to imply) as 2-timing, conniving 'hoes, is INSULTING to ALL WOMEN (especially American women).
> 
> My STBXH is a raging a-hole, but that doesn't mean I think ALL men or even all AMERICAN men are a-holes. Some are, for sure, but not ALL.


I will concede, not ALL women are like that. However, from an emotional and financial standpoint, for me personally, it is best to assume that they are (or at least have the potential to be).

Don't care if it's insulting... I've seen enough evidence, and that evidence is damning.


----------



## matt82

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Not true! I have known TWO women with SAHHs.
> 
> 1.) A woman I graduated high-school with. Very quiet, mature, intelligent girl. She became an attorney and her H was a SAHD to their daughter.
> 
> 2.) A woman I worked with. She had a college education, her husband did not. She had a better-paying job, better benefits, more career opportunity. They had 2 sons and he was a SAHD to the 2 boys. Lest you think he is some kind of a feckless doormat, he was a former U.S. Marine. I'll bet his boys had a kick-ass FUN childhood with him (climbing, exploring, all kinds of dare-deviltry!)
> 
> This couple used simple logic: they wanted the boys to have a parent home FULL-TIME until school-age. She had better income earning power and better prospects. Thank God he wasn't SO CAUGHT up in 'societal expectations' that he couldn't see the wisdom of HER staying employed instead of him. Plus, the boys got a helluva role model (does laundry, dishes, vacuums, cooks, shoots guns, can kill you with his bare hands!)
> 
> I forgot, there was a third, but (like Pink Lady) HER husband REFUSED to go to work!


Your friends are the exceptions to the rule and their husbands are sitting ducks. Once the hypergamic urges kick in, it's game over!


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## Thundarr

matt82 said:


> I will concede, not ALL women are like that. However, from an emotional and financial standpoint, for me personally, it is best to assume that they are (or at least have the potential to be).
> 
> Don't care if it's insulting... I've seen enough evidence, and that evidence is damning.


:iagree:
Let some wonderful lady prove you wrong. Until then you'll avoid repeating mistakes. I was much the same after my first marriage but it was a different list of red flags to watch for. To a degree it was protecting myself from myself since obviously I didn't choose well the first go around.


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## Thundarr

matt82 said:


> Your friends are the exceptions to the rule and their husbands are sitting ducks. Once the hypergamic urges kick in, it's game over!


:iagree:
You're on a roll matt.


----------



## matt82

Thundarr said:


> :iagree:
> Let some wonderful lady prove you wrong. Until then you'll avoid repeating mistakes. I was much the same after my first marriage but it was a different list of red flags to watch for. To a degree it was protecting myself from myself since obviously I didn't choose well the first go around.


Well said! I would love to meet a nice woman and be confident in our ability to work through difficulties and enjoy each others company. And maybe this will happen someday, but I'm also realistic and know that I'm also not the "catch" I once was. (CS, a kid, and and incurrable STD will do that.)


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## hekati

This is a type of problem I would never understand. I would understand if you are not in love with your husband or he is not in love with you. That would be really a problem. But I don’t understand that. If you love your husband you want him to be happy. If he wants to be an artist and it would make him happy so be it. I know what I am talking about. My husband quit a job that he didn’t like and he is an independent musician now. Well he is better at painting walls than yours. But if it would be a problem I would rather hired somebody to paint or just would deal with the old decor. I don’t understand how people could make a problem form so unimportant things? May be he is in depression now. Especially if he wants to be an artist and he couldn’t find himself. It could be frustrating. I remember myself studying for my degree and trying to find an area of my interests and grants that would pay it off. It was tough and sometimes frustrating. It worked out one day. Well I guess I am too immature too understand this kind of problems.


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## Thundarr

hekati said:


> This is a type of problem I would never understand. I would understand if you are not in love with you husband or he is not in love with you. That would be really a problem. But I don’t understand that. If you love your husband you want him to be happy. If he wants to be an artist and it would make him happy so be it. I know what I am talking about. My husband quit a job that he didn’t like and he is an independent musician now. Well he is better at painting walls than yours. But if it would be a problem I would rather hired somebody to paint or just would deal with the old decor. I don’t understand who people could make a problem for so unimportant things? May be he is in depression now. Especially if he wants to be an artist and he couldn’t find himself. It could be frustrating. I remember myself studying for my degree and trying to find an area of my interests and grants that would pay it off. It was tough and sometimes frustrating. It worked out one day. Well I guess I am too immature too understand this kind of problems.


I should have done that then because I've never been all that happy about working. It doesn't matter I guess if my wife and family starve or if my kids go to school unshowered and stinky so long as they love me and I'm happy. And who really needs a home when we can find a good shelter.


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## hekati

Thundarr said:


> I should have done that then because I've never been all that happy about working. It doesn't matter I guess if my wife and family starve or if my kids go to school unshowered and stinky so long as they love me and I'm happy. And who really needs a home when we can find a good shelter.


Well I believed that boys and girls first get education, then they succed in the career they like, and only after that they make kids. Silly me. Oh well, I was raised with an attitude that if a woman can’t support her children she should not have kids. 
Leo Tolstoy said “We do not love people so much for the good they have done us, as for the good we have done them."


----------



## EleGirl

matt82 said:


> It's funny that many wives get out of the workforce as quickly as they can after marriage, and no one seems to say anything about it. But then when a MAN does it... OH HOW COULD HE!!! What a lazy, worthless slob! I'll bet he's manipulative too! He might even be abusive one day! Sweetheart, you need to draw a line in the sand and leave his ass!
> 
> Then to add insult to injury, if the OP did leave him, SHE could be ordered to pay alimony to support him sitting on his ass, surfing the web all day.
> 
> Equality... ain't that a *****!
> 
> *I'm not saying that the guy shouldn't get a job, but I think it is funny that if a guy was on here complaining about his lazy, good-for-nothing wife, he'd be encouraged to be more "understanding" and that maybe he should work HARDER to fulfill her emotional needs.*


I guess you have not been here long enough to know how people would react to a man coming here to complain about a lazy wife. Generally a lazy spouse, regardless of their gender is a drain on the marriage, their spouse and their family. A man who disagreed with a wife who does exactly what pink's husband is doing would be getting the same advise we are giving her.



matt82 said:


> Then if he does get a job that takes him out of the home more, she complains that he doesn't do enough to help around the house. He isn't willing to "Man Up," so she feels validated in her decision to start looking for other schmucks.
> 
> Marriage is a raw deal all around for men, and they are waking up.


Again you are making up nonsense that no one here supports. Try just speaking for yourself instead of trying to make up what you think others will do based on your prejudices.


----------



## EleGirl

matt82 said:


> I will concede, not ALL women are like that. However, from an emotional and financial standpoint, for me personally, it is best to assume that they are (or at least have the potential to be).
> 
> Don't care if it's insulting... I've seen enough evidence, and that evidence is damning.


Well if I live by the same gross assumptions that I'll have to say that all men are cheating, lying, thieving asses who are not worth the time of day.

And yes I've seen enough evidence and that evidence is damning.

And I don't care if it's insulting to you.


----------



## EleGirl

hekati said:


> This is a type of problem I would never understand. I would understand if you are not in love with your husband or he is not in love with you. That would be really a problem. But I don’t understand that. If you love your husband you want him to be happy. If he wants to be an artist and it would make him happy so be it. I know what I am talking about. My husband quit a job that he didn’t like and he is an independent musician now. Well he is better at painting walls than yours. But if it would be a problem I would rather hired somebody to paint or just would deal with the old decor. I don’t understand how people could make a problem form so unimportant things? May be he is in depression now. Especially if he wants to be an artist and he couldn’t find himself. It could be frustrating. I remember myself studying for my degree and trying to find an area of my interests and grants that would pay it off. It was tough and sometimes frustrating. It worked out one day. Well I guess I am too immature too understand this kind of problems.



So your husband is a musician, he brings in no income, he does nothing to help out in the home. You support him finacially and you do all the housework, shopping, take care of finances, etc... and you are happy with that. Is this what you are saying?


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## EleGirl

hekati said:


> Well I believed that boys and girls first get education, then they succed in the career they like, and only after that they make kids. Silly me. Oh well, I was raised with an attitude that if a woman can’t support her children she should not have kids.
> Leo Tolstoy said “We do not love people so much for the good they have done us, as for the good we have done them."


Why do you say that a person should have a career after they get their education. Career implies that they are making money. 

In your post above you said that no one should expect their spouse to have a career that earns money if they don't want to. That they can just not work and mooch off the other one.


----------



## Thundarr

hekati said:


> Well I believed that boys and girls first get education, then they succed in the career they like, and only after that they make kids. Silly me. Oh well, I was raised with an attitude that if a woman can’t support her children she should not have kids.
> Leo Tolstoy said “We do not love people so much for the good they have done us, as for the good we have done them."


Are you sure this is the correct thread then? These wipper snappers (Pink and husband) are in their early forties and guess what; they have no kids. Hardly straight out of school. Pink (like most women in her shoes) is not happy about providing for a forty year old man who's blames the world because he's not able to take care of himself much less a partner. I have a hard time imagining anyone who has succeeded at self sufficiency defending the character she's defined.


----------



## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> Well if I live by the same gross assumptions that I'll have to say that all men are cheating, lying, thieving asses who are not worth the time of day.
> 
> And yes I've seen enough evidence and that evidence is damning.
> 
> And I don't care if it's insulting to you.


Ele, I suspect what matt is thinking is that guilty until proven innocent. This may be a good approach for him if he's proven to not see the warning signs well in the past. I had a few triggers that I paid a lot of attention to after my first marriage ended. Maybe you're right but I seemed to serve me well.


----------



## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> Ele, I suspect what matt is thinking is that guilty until proven innocent. This may be a good approach for him if he's proven to not see the warning signs well in the past. I had a few triggers that I paid a lot of attention to after my first marriage ended.


Oh I am sure he is. And at some point a person has to let the anger go. Those of use who have been badly hurt can be careful and protect ourselves without painting the entire other gender as bad, evil, etc.

My post was simply a mirror for him to look into.


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## hekati

Well… you can’t change another person. You can change only your attitude. It is not easy to find a love of your life and if on the top of that you have to search for a good provider as well … then the task is impossible. Just think about that. 
Other though is that basically most of healthy people want to achieve certain recognition. If a person doesn’t want to do anything, if he is really just watching TV and chatting on facebook then I think it is a sign of a sort of depression or crisis. 40 y.o. could be a middle age crisis when a person evaluates what he achieved. If she loves him she probably would try to help him go through. I would think so. 
She doesn’t have to. I guess she could divorce. It is up to her. My point is she would never change him by complaining what a miserable person he is. 
And I notice that they don’t have kids. So I don’t get where is your point about starving kids coming from?


----------



## EleGirl

hekati said:


> Well… you can’t change another person. You can change only your attitude. It is not easy to find a love of your life and if on the top of that you have to search for a good provider as well … then the task is impossible. Just think about that.
> Other though is that basically most of healthy people want to achieve certain recognition. If a person doesn’t want to do anything, if he is really just watching TV and chatting on facebook then I think it is a sign of a sort of depression or crisis. 40 y.o. could be a middle age crisis when a person evaluates what he achieved. If she loves him she probably would try to help him go through. I would think so.
> She doesn’t have to. I guess she could divorce. It is up to her. My point is she would never change him by complaining what a miserable person he is.
> And I notice that they don’t have kids. So I don’t get where is your point about starving kids coming from?


The point about starving kids is that if, in a family where they have children, if both spouses do what you suggest... not work and just follow their desire to be artists, then the children will starve.

If one spouse has the right to not work and earn an income I guess both have the right to do that.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Originally posted by hekati:
> if a woman can’t support her children she should not have kids.


Agreed, but her husband is no CHILD to be "supported".

If you've READ THE WHOLE THREAD (which is doubtful), you would have read that he is not TOO DEPRESSED to work on theater productions (that pay SQUAT), or doing other things that INTEREST him (that pay bupkis). But, he has no INTEREST, no ENERGY, no DRIVE to do ANYTHING around the house that's USEFUL, or EARN A LIVING, or CONTRIBUTE A DIME to their lifestyle.

He's a male GOLD-DIGGER. Plain and simple. No depression needed, just a simple sense of entitlement.


----------



## EleGirl

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Agreed, but her husband is no CHILD to be "supported".
> 
> If you've READ THE WHOLE THREAD (which is doubtful), you would have read that he is not TOO DEPRESSED to work on theater productions (that pay SQUAT), or doing other things that INTEREST him (that pay bupkis). But, he has no INTEREST, no ENERGY, no DRIVE to do ANYTHING around the house that's USEFUL, or EARN A LIVING, or CONTRIBUTE A DIME to their lifestyle.
> 
> He's a male GOLD-DIGGER. Plain and simple. No depression needed, just a simple sense of entitlement.


I believe I also read that he does not have any time for his wife either.


----------



## pink_lady

hekati said:


> Well… you can’t change another person. You can change only your attitude. It is not easy to find a love of your life and if on the top of that you have to search for a good provider as well … then the task is impossible. Just think about that.
> Other though is that basically most of healthy people want to achieve certain recognition. If a person doesn’t want to do anything, if he is really just watching TV and chatting on facebook then I think it is a sign of a sort of depression or crisis. 40 y.o. could be a middle age crisis when a person evaluates what he achieved. If she loves him she probably would try to help him go through. I would think so.
> She doesn’t have to. I guess she could divorce. It is up to her. My point is she would never change him by complaining what a miserable person he is.
> And I notice that they don’t have kids. So I don’t get where is your point about starving kids coming from?


Marriage is not about a woman finding a man to help (unless she is a woman who 'Loves Too Much'.) It is about both partners having each others' back. 

If one spouse decides they don't care enough to make an effort to create a life together, but instead focuses on only their needs while ignoring their partner's, that is NOT LOVE.

Thankfully my self esteem isn't quite low enough yet to settle for a relationship where I make 90% of the effort.


----------



## pink_lady

hekati said:


> This is a type of problem I would never understand. I would understand if you are not in love with your husband or he is not in love with you. That would be really a problem. But I don’t understand that. If you love your husband you want him to be happy. If he wants to be an artist and it would make him happy so be it. I know what I am talking about. My husband quit a job that he didn’t like and he is an independent musician now. Well he is better at painting walls than yours. But if it would be a problem I would rather hired somebody to paint or just would deal with the old decor. I don’t understand how people could make a problem form so unimportant things?


The wall-painting incident is an example I used to demonstrate my husband's pattern of passive-aggressive behavior in our marriage.


----------



## hekati

pink_lady said:


> The wall-painting incident is an example I used to demonstrate my husband's pattern of passive-aggressive behavior in our marriage.


People usually don’t do good what they don’t like. Or another, actually my husband’s, saying “don’t be good at what you don’t what to do”. It is a huge waste of energy to force someone to do what he doesn’t want to do. Even companies prefer to hire self-motivated people. I guess one of the motivation techniques was described by Mark Twain about how Tom Sawyer painted a fence LOL. Yes, I am that immature LOL. Really even adults are more motivated if they see the work as a sort of game not as a boring responsibility.


----------



## hekati

pink_lady said:


> Marriage is not about a woman finding a man to help (unless she is a woman who 'Loves Too Much'.) It is about both partners having each others' back.
> 
> If one spouse decides they don't care enough to make an effort to create a life together, but instead focuses on only their needs while ignoring their partner's, that is NOT LOVE.
> 
> Thankfully my self esteem isn't quite low enough yet to settle for a relationship where I make 90% of the effort.


What it has to do with self-esteem? It should be about what makes you happy? If the guy has some unique quality that makes you happy than you don’t count percentage of the work each of you were doing. About having each other’s back it sounds sorta right … but do you really can find a person that you could trust to have your back? I mean I can find many that would honestly vow to do it and will do their best but do they really be able to do it. I don’t know. Many people promise too much beyond their abilities. That is how I feel. That is why I never expect anyone to have my back, or at least I would have plan B what if he would fail to have my back, LOL.


----------



## Thundarr

hekati said:


> If the guy has some unique quality that makes you happy than you don’t count percentage of the work each of you were doing. About having each other’s back it sounds sorta right … but do you really can find a person that you could trust to have your back?


I think what pink is saying is that providing something financially is part of having her back because she needs that. Sure, someone can provide financially and fail in other ways which is also bad. Not many want a good provider who beats them and treats them poorly.

What most of us are saying is that it's not setting the bar too high for pink to need her husband to not only be trustworthy and respectful but also do the necessary boring things like earning a living or helping around the house or both.


----------



## hekati

I just always wonder what people with this kind of problems what to achieve. If the guy is sorta charming and that’s make you happy, then you have to learn how to deal with it. The best thing is to try to be a little more childish and make it all not so depressing. Panting the walls could be fun. Second maybe the guy does have a depression, it looks like to me so maybe he needs some professional help. And there is an opposite approach – if the guy is not that charming leave him, especially if there is no kids.
The most destructive is just to continue to discuss how it all horrible and how she is trying do her best and he is a piece of shhh… I mean it is just a wasting of time for her first of all.


----------



## Tigger

hekati said:


> I just always wonder what people with this kind of problems what to achieve. If the guy is sorta charming and that’s make you happy, then you have to learn how to deal with it. The best thing is to try to be a little more childish and make it all not so depressing. Panting the walls could be fun. Second maybe the guy does have a depression, it looks like to me so maybe he needs some professional help. And there is an opposite approach – if the guy is not that charming leave him, especially if there is no kids.
> The most destructive is just to continue to discuss how it all horrible and how she is trying do her best and he is a piece of shhh… I mean it is just a wasting of time for her first of all.


Are you kind of assuming the guy is good hearted and cares about his spouses well-being?

I really don't think you would put up with someone sponging off you for years and years.


----------



## Tigger

The point with the SAHD dad here doesn't apply since there are no kids but if there were, he would stay home based on a mutual agreement and he would actually be expected to take care of the children and house.

He has to actually do something other than breathe and take up space.


----------



## Tigger

Since his unemployment has run out, have you told him to find a job.

It is funny that he has become the thing he was so afraid of. His refusal to grow up because he doesn't like to be told what to do has resulted in him being child like and dependent on the whims of others which was what he was trying to avoid.

Does he really think you'll leave?


----------



## Ellen Steve

The Bible tells us that men who will not provide for their families are like millstones around their family’s neck (or words to that effect). However in today’s world there are men who have changed roles and stay home to take care of housework and children. Recently my daughter’s husband was laid off work and now without his income and refusing to look for a job they will probably lose their car and savings. Her answer, we will pull the kids out of day care, you will take care of them. They agreed that he would clean the house and cook the meals. With his talents he is now taking on music students and making up for the lost wages. My daughter’s career is the one that pays the bills so they are very lucky. However, they found the need to have a candid discussion about roles in the family and come to a mutual agreement.Save My Marriage


----------



## Thundarr

Ellen Steve said:


> The Bible tells us that men who will not provide for their families are like millstones around their family’s neck (or words to that effect). However in today’s world there are men who have changed roles and stay home to take care of housework and children. Recently my daughter’s husband was laid off work and now without his income and refusing to look for a job they will probably lose their car and savings. Her answer, we will pull the kids out of day care, you will take care of them. They agreed that he would clean the house and cook the meals. With his talents he is now taking on music students and making up for the lost wages. My daughter’s career is the one that pays the bills so they are very lucky. However, they found the need to have a candid discussion about roles in the family and come to a mutual agreement.


I wager disaster is looming.


----------



## pink_lady

Tigger said:


> Since his unemployment has run out, have you told him to find a job.
> 
> It is funny that he has become the thing he was so afraid of. His refusal to grow up because he doesn't like to be told what to do has resulted in him being child like and dependent on the whims of others which was what he was trying to avoid.
> 
> Does he really think you'll leave?


You've hit the nail on the head, T. This is the basic conflict for P.A. men. They manipulate themselves into being dependent on a partner, then punish the partner because they resent being dependent on them! 

Similar dynamic with his parents- he knows they don't respect him, he does not have a good relationship with them, but he also won't stand up to them- because he is dependent on their money and also still wants their approval.

The unemployment hasn't run out yet but he is running out of time- at this point I'm just waiting to see what happens. He may actually start trying to get a job once it's gone. If not, I'll probably tell him he has 60 days or so to get one before I leave and he's on his own. Financially it's probably better for me to stay here and pay for everything than move out, but of course that's not the only issue at hand.


----------



## Battle_Cats

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Matt: your XW IS a 2-timing, conniving 'ho; no getting around that. It is a shame when honest people are hurt by the actions of others.
> 
> But painting all women (or all American women as your posting seems to imply) as 2-timing, conniving 'hoes, is INSULTING to ALL WOMEN (especially American women).
> 
> *My STBXH is a raging a-hole, but that doesn't mean I think ALL men or even all AMERICAN men are a-holes. Some are, for sure, but not ALL.*


There's a difference. Your husband can't destroy you with a phone call. ALL women have that power against men.

Just wanted to point that out.


----------



## pink_lady

Battle_Cats said:


> There's a difference. Your husband can't destroy you with a phone call. ALL women have that power against men.
> 
> Just wanted to point that out.


Huh? How can we destroy a man with a phone call?


----------



## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> You've hit the nail on the head, T. This is the basic conflict for P.A. men. They manipulate themselves into being dependent on a partner, then punish the partner because they resent being dependent on them!
> 
> Similar dynamic with his parents- he knows they don't respect him, he does not have a good relationship with them, but he also won't stand up to them- because he is dependent on their money and also still wants their approval.
> 
> The unemployment hasn't run out yet but he is running out of time- at this point I'm just waiting to see what happens. He may actually start trying to get a job once it's gone. If not, I'll probably tell him he has 60 days or so to get one before I leave and he's on his own. Financially it's probably better for me to stay here and pay for everything than move out, but of course that's not the only issue at hand.


why not tell him now that he has until his unemployment runs out to find a job? That way you are not extending your unhappiness 60 days more.


----------



## jaquen

EleGirl said:


> why not tell him now that he has until his unemployment runs out to find a job? That way you are not extending your unhappiness 60 days more.


It really sounds like she's still hoping her husband will have a wake up moment on his own, and step up and be a man without her having to offer ultimatums.

Seems like her hope isn't all gone.

It also works in her favor, financially, if she doesn't lay down the law. Because if her husband still doesn't step up, she'll have to leave, and that's tough to do for her right now, leaving a rent free (or low rent) abode.


----------



## pink_lady

EleGirl said:


> why not tell him now that he has until his unemployment runs out to find a job? That way you are not extending your unhappiness 60 days more.


I don't think he'll face reality or actually make any effort to get a job until the trickle of money he gets that is enough to pay for his phone, restaurant meals with friends, gas etc. stops.

Once he has to ask either me or his parents for a check for his basic expenses he might finally be motivated to put the effort in.


----------



## pink_lady

jaquen said:


> It really sounds like she's still hoping her husband will have a wake up moment on his own, and step up and be a man without her having to offer ultimatums.
> 
> Seems like her hope isn't all gone.
> 
> It also works in her favor, financially, if she doesn't lay down the law. Because if her husband still doesn't step up, she'll have to leave, and that's tough to do for her right now, leaving a rent free (or low rent) abode.


Exactly.


----------



## pink_lady

So...the other night H wakes me up to ask me if I would mind if he started an 'unlicensed massage business'.

It seems he had given his female co-stars neck rubs during rehearsal, and they really liked it. He reasoned he could make a lot of money charging people for massages.

But "only his female friends", no men.

He asked, "would that be okay with you, or would you be jealous?"

I had no idea how to begin to respond to this.

I don't know that he's ever given me a neck rub.


----------



## RandomDude

Does he want to eat? WTF is wrong with him?

If he doesn't want to work he has to EARN the right to not work via passive income and/or his own money-makers such as businesses/real estate. He shouldn't be dependent on you not to mention he's a fking man! Where's his balls that should be inspiring him to get out there and make something of himself?!

He's not being realistic and in fact incredibly selfish.



> So...the other night H wakes me up to ask me if I would mind if he started an 'unlicensed massage business'. It seems he had given his female co-stars neck rubs during rehearsal, and they really liked it. He reasoned he could make a lot of money charging people for massages...
> 
> *I don't know that he's ever given me a neck rub.*


Is he deliberately trying to get you to divorce him?


----------



## tm84

pink_lady said:


> So...the other night H wakes me up to ask me if I would mind if he started an 'unlicensed massage business'.
> 
> It seems he had given his female co-stars neck rubs during rehearsal, and they really liked it. He reasoned he could make a lot of money charging people for massages.
> 
> But "only his female friends", no men.
> 
> He asked, "would that be okay with you, or would you be jealous?"
> 
> I had no idea how to begin to respond to this.
> 
> I don't know that he's ever given me a neck rub.


Wait...wha? Seriously?! Is he really that out of touch with reality?


----------



## pink_lady

tm84 said:


> Wait...wha? Seriously?! Is he really that out of touch with reality?


Y'know, I'm not sure! But I think so. He's like a little kid in a 40+ year old man's body.


----------



## pink_lady

So, last night I laid out all my unhappiness with the marriage- his complete lack of interest in earning a living, his passive-aggressive behavior patterns, his CONSTANT attention and approval seeking with other women. 

I said I thought to have any chance of working through our issues we would need both individual and marriage counseling. He flat out refused.

Then tonight he told me the unemployment is finally over. He always brings it up like it's a complete surprise to him that it would ever run out. I said well, it's not like you didn't know that was going to happen...

That pissed him off so he went in the garage and slammed the door. What did he expect me to say? "Don't worry honey, I'll take care of you...?" 

If I'm honest with myself, I have no hope for this relationship. My fear is that he'll be on his best behavior for a while to try to keep things status quo, and I'll let myself get sucked into wasting more years of my life with someone who can't and/or refuses to meet any of my needs.

I plan to move out of the house by April.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

please don't give him access to any funds. Let him be forced to find a job, then leave and file, while he is employed.

He is definitely using you and has zero respect for you. 

You deserve so much better.

Good luck.


----------



## RandomDude

Reading this again I actually find it funny, "unlicensed/untrained massage therapy with a pervy guy"

Good luck! :rofl:


----------



## Theseus

I mostly agree with the other comments here, but would still like to give a slightly different perspective. I read though much of this thread, and there were two things that irritated me about it.

1. The blatant double standard. The assumption that any man who doesn't work is less than a man. If a woman was acting this way, I am certain the comments at TAM would be far less harsh. You can also add in the fact that he's essentially paying the rent, because his parents are providing it. Not the ideal situation to be sure, but if his parents want to be generous, then that's their business. This is no different than marrying a guy who is living off an inheritance or enjoying a trust fund.

2. HOWEVER, the husband is still in the wrong here. Not necessarily for not getting a job, because jobs are very hard to find right now. But for not doing anything at home, and there's no excuse for that. His weight gain is illustrative of that. If you are not working, then you sure as hell have more time for exercising, so there's no excuse not to do it. He could also be doing all the chores at home with this free time. At the beginning of the thread, Pink Lady said she just started a new job and it was stressful for her. If the H took care of everything else, at least that would have helped her stress a bit and improved home life that way. My wife didn't work for many years, but she still kept in shape, worked at home, did all the cooking, home improvements, etc. And I was fine with that.


----------



## Thundarr

Theseus said:


> I mostly agree with the other comments here, but would still like to give a slightly different perspective. I read though much of this thread, and there were two things that irritated me about it.
> 
> 1. The blatant double standard. The assumption that any man who doesn't work is less than a man. If a woman was acting this way, I am certain the comments at TAM would be far less harsh. You can also add in the fact that he's essentially paying the rent, because his parents are providing it. Not the ideal situation to be sure, but if his parents want to be generous, then that's their business. This is no different than marrying a guy who is living off an inheritance or enjoying a trust fund.
> 
> 2. HOWEVER, the husband is still in the wrong here. Not necessarily for not getting a job, because jobs are very hard to find right now. But for not doing anything at home, and there's no excuse for that. His weight gain is illustrative of that. If you are not working, then you sure as hell have more time for exercising, so there's no excuse not to do it. He could also be doing all the chores at home with this free time. At the beginning of the thread, Pink Lady said she just started a new job and it was stressful for her. If the H took care of everything else, at least that would have helped her stress a bit and improved home life that way. My wife didn't work for many years, but she still kept in shape, worked at home, did all the cooking, home improvements, etc. And I was fine with that.


There is a double standard. It's because almost all women want a man who will be a provider and protector and it sounds like Pink is no exception. Many men on the otherhand don't have a problem with their SO not working so long as they keep up the house. Maybe enough generations in today's world will start to change this some but for now it's an innate human characteristic for the majority of women (not all). It's also an innate human characteristic for most men see another man who cannot provide for his family as being weak (not all).

Point is, Pink want's someone to be resposible and share the load financially and there's lot's of guys out there who think they should do that. Pink's SO on the other hand wants a woman to take care of him while he chases his dreams. I don't think I know any women who find that appealing.


----------



## Gruff

I read all of this story, the cherry on the cake is this 'massage business' business! Why won't he consider massaging men if it's not in at least a small way about his enjoyment of kneading the flesh of women who are not his wife! I find it ridiculous on top of his extreme indifference to standing on his own two feet. So sorry you are having to endure all this op. Get out, get out now.


----------



## pink_lady

Well, it's over. The night after our talk H stayed out with his oh so good 'friends' until 4 am. Then posted a long gushing exchange with some woman on Facebook.

I asked again about counseling, he said he doesn't believe in it and will never go- because his parents made him go in high school (everything is about mom and dad with this guy), and then said he will always be who he is and I'll always be who I am (I'll always 'want these things from him') so basically there's nothing that can be done.

The 'things I want from him' are mutual respect- him actually treating me like I matter to him, partnership, someone to count on, both of us earning some sort of living- really outlandish demands.

I asked why he wanted to get married. He said because he loves me. Huh?

He has been sabotaging the relationship with his child-like, passive aggressive behavior from the moment I moved here. So I guess he's getting his way, I'm leaving.

I can't believe I waited so long to get married, thought I'd finally found someone, moved to another state, and this is what it got me. It really is pathetic.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Don't be so hard on yourself. Your doing the right thing. He's not going to change. He will always be disrespectful no matter who he's with.

If he loved you, he'd put in a little effort to save the marriage. He's not. He's talking to other women.


----------



## Openminded

Better to deal with things sooner rather than later. 

You will have a much happier life without the stress of dealing with a man who never grew up.


----------



## sunvalley

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself. Your doing the right thing. He's not going to change. He will always be disrespectful no matter who he's with.
> 
> If he loved you, he'd put in a little effort to save the marriage. He's not. He's talking to other women.


:iagree:

Good for you, Pink_Lady. It'll be hard at first, when you leave, but you will be better for it. (I am truly sorry, though, that it came to this .... sounds like you made all the effort, and he made very little, if any.)

I wish you nothing but the best of luck, and please keep us posted.

P.S. Don't worry about him not supporting himself ... he'll find another woman to sponge off of soon enough. And thank goodness it *won't* be you.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

> pink_lady
> I can't believe I waited so long to get married, thought I'd finally found someone, moved to another state, and this is what it got me. It really is pathetic.


*Hey, pink_lady, NO BEATING YOURSELF UP NOW!

When you KNOW better, you DO better.*

*Now you KNOW better *and you are moving forward with YOUR life so you are DOING better. Learn the lesson. It is the most you can hope to gain from this whole situation. Move away where you do NOT have to deal with him/parents again.

Please be sure to get into Individualized Counseling ASAP; budget for it. 

*Be resourceful *

is there a university with PhD programs in Psychology that can give you a list of low-cost referrals? 
church groups with low-cost referals? 
women's crisis hotline with referals?
could you share a home/condo/apt with another woman for a year or two to save on expenses?
you can Google self-help books on co-dependency and setting healthy boundaries and then BORROW them from a library. (Start with Codependent No More by Melody Beattie); also check out books on manipulative people
you can look for self-help GROUPS, other people who are meeting, discussing, sharing ideas, trading books and resources on your problem

Hang in there, pink_lady! You ARE making the right choice! You are making a healthy choice to take control of your life back. You know TAM is here FOR YOU 24/7.

We KNOW you can make it and we're pulling for YOU to feel better about this SOON.

*hugs*


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Pink Lady,

Don't be too hard on yourself. You learned a lot about what you need, what you want, what you expect. (And that it's not unreasonable!) 

I was embarrassed at having a roommate at my age at the time (35-40) but that allowed me to save up a nice down payment for the house I'm in while Peter Pan couldn't manage more than a few years on his own and now lives with his mother. I'm sure when dating he spins it as being the good son caring for his elderly 95y/o mother. 

You'll be fine - great, even. Please let us know how things go for you. Don't let him get a dime. Be sure you set up a separate account NOW. If he wants money for something, he needs to earn it. Seek out every resource you can. They are meant for people such as yourself. Take it now, pay it forward. 

Best of luck.


----------



## Thundarr

pink_lady said:


> Well, it's over. The night after our talk H stayed out with his oh so good 'friends' until 4 am. Then posted a long gushing exchange with some woman on Facebook.
> 
> I asked again about counseling, he said he doesn't believe in it and will never go- because his parents made him go in high school (everything is about mom and dad with this guy), and then said he will always be who he is and I'll always be who I am (I'll always 'want these things from him') so basically there's nothing that can be done.


He's figured out that you're tired of him sponging so he's working on his next provider already (facebook woman). He's had no plan to do better but he's made you think he would. He's just been riding the relationship out as long as you'll take care of him.

I've learned over the years that actions speak volumes and actions are how to understand how someone thinks. Don't project your way of thinking onto him. You're a giver and he's a taker. There's just not much in common in how you see things internally vs how he sees things. In his mind the ends justifies the means and being taken care of is the end goal. This is what makes it so hard for people who put others first to comprehend how a taker thinks or how a taker can live with themselves. I have to admit, I don't understand it. The bottom line though is that he doesn't want to be fixed. He likes being self centered and entitled and he thinks you should agree and take care of him. In affect he sees you as a lesser person and of lesser worth than he sees himself.

You deserve a partner Pink. Someone who wants to make you a better person and someone who is a better person because of you. Someone who wants to change for the better and not throw your dribble like "I am who I am".


----------



## Freak On a Leash

pink_lady said:


> . And pretty depressed at the thought of trying to find another partner at this age


It could be worse. You could have kids and have to deal with this. It sucks at any age. 

I'd file for divorce and get rid of this sorry piece of baggage. My husband hasn't worked in 3 years and I'm the sole provider for my 2 kids. 

Better to be alone than to be saddled with the piece of debris you have for a husband.


----------



## Dreald

LOL. The double-standard in this thread is amusing. 

OP states "I've worked very hard redecorating the house (that I have no claim to since his parents own it- stupid me). "

So, She mentioned this is a house that belongs to his parents that she lives in rent free. Amazing the sense of entitlement.

It's interesting to note how most women's "attraction" for the husband is related to the fact that he works and how they "lose respect for him as a man" when he is not working. 

I'm also sure that if the house was owned directly by him as opposed to his parents, she would've divorced him already to get it. (If not, then why does a man's pre-marriage money be automatically transmuted to "her share" simply because she's added to the deed? A 401(k) doesn't work that way, neither does inheritance -- but it does regardless once her name is listed as co-asset. The courts consider that a "gift" to the marriage, regardless of true intent). 

Also note in the comments folks advise her to divorce the guy asap. God forbid she has to pay alimony for a few years or for the rest of her life! Now that would be wonderful for the guy if that actually happened. 

P.S. If single mommy with OM's child still lived at home with her parents, do you think she could swing Parental Alimony and CS from her parents when she leaves her comfy nest? What makes it any different than a husband supporting her? Oh.. The Ring.

P.S. This reminds me of someone a friend met after his divorce. This woman tells him that her husband was out of work for "almost 2 years" and during that time, she had to support the two of them. "Can you imagine?" she asks.

He tells her, "Yes, I can. Because I was the sole income for the entire length of my marriage, and I had to support myself, my ex, and our 3 children. And come to think of it, I'm still supporting my ex and our 3 children, thanks to child support, and I only get to see the kids for 6 days a month now."

She was going to say something, but then decided against it. 

Needless to say, that was a short date for him. 

Women get very insulted when they are asked to do something that most men are implicitly obligated to do from day one.

P.S.S. Not surprised if I get banned from this site. Folks have said far less and gotten banned from what I've read-- but sometimes the truth hurts, even if it's not PC in which to discuss it.


----------



## unbelievable

This human being is male, married, over 18. He's technically a man and a man who is physically able goes to work. He is unwilling so he's neither man nor husband. Toss his worthless butt to the curb, chalk up whatever you've lost as tuition to the University of Life, and get on with your life. This miserable waste of DNA is unfit for a relationship with anyone remotely decent. He is biologically capable of reproducing but he's not father material and never will be. Every day wasted on him is a risk to some potentially future child.


----------



## pink_lady

Dreald said:


> LOL. The double-standard in this thread is amusing.
> 
> OP states "I've worked very hard redecorating the house (that I have no claim to since his parents own it- stupid me). "
> 
> So, She mentioned this is a house that belongs to his parents that she lives in rent free. Amazing the sense of entitlement.
> 
> It's interesting to note how most women's "attraction" for the husband is related to the fact that he works and how they "lose respect for him as a man" when he is not working.
> 
> I'm also sure that if the house was owned directly by him as opposed to his parents, she would've divorced him already to get it. (If not, then why does a man's pre-marriage money be automatically transmuted to "her share" simply because she's added to the deed? A 401(k) doesn't work that way, neither does inheritance -- but it does regardless once her name is listed as co-asset. The courts consider that a "gift" to the marriage, regardless of true intent).
> 
> Also note in the comments folks advise her to divorce the guy asap. God forbid she has to pay alimony for a few years or for the rest of her life! Now that would be wonderful for the guy if that actually happened.
> 
> P.S. If single mommy with OM's child still lived at home with her parents, do you think she could swing Parental Alimony and CS from her parents when she leaves her comfy nest? What makes it any different than a husband supporting her? Oh.. The Ring.
> 
> P.S. This reminds me of someone a friend met after his divorce. This woman tells him that her husband was out of work for "almost 2 years" and during that time, she had to support the two of them. "Can you imagine?" she asks.
> 
> He tells her, "Yes, I can. Because I was the sole income for the entire length of my marriage, and I had to support myself, my ex, and our 3 children. And come to think of it, I'm still supporting my ex and our 3 children, thanks to child support, and I only get to see the kids for 6 days a month now."


I think you're projecting some aspects of another situation that don't apply to my case.

We have no kids. So any mention of someone staying home to take care of children (that's division of labor- whether you think it's good division of labor or not) has nothing at all to do with my situation.

He still expects me to do most of the housework. When he does load the dishwasher or something, the implication is that he's done me a favor. He refuses to do any routine maintenance around the house like brushing the pine needles off the roof so they don't eat through the shingles.

As I stated (a few times) I would never expect my husband to support me while I refused to contribute anything to the household. That would be insane. That was not the life we talked about before I moved to this state.

We talked about a life where travel and adventure was very important. Where we would do what it took to live the way we wanted to. Where we would be there for each other, have each other's back, where we would create a home we loved together. He would write, I would start a business.

As it turned out my husband was not remotely interested in any of those things. I am on my own.

I'm not leaving him because he isn't working. I'm leaving him because he misrepresented his feelings for me, what he wanted from the relationship and what he was willing to contribute to it.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Dreald said:


> LOL. The double-standard in this thread is amusing.
> 
> OP states "I've worked very hard redecorating the house (that I have no claim to since his parents own it- stupid me). "
> 
> So, She mentioned this is a house that belongs to his parents that she lives in rent free. Amazing the sense of entitlement.
> 
> It's interesting to note how most women's "attraction" for the husband is related to the fact that he works and how they "lose respect for him as a man" when he is not working.
> 
> I'm also sure that if the house was owned directly by him as opposed to his parents, she would've divorced him already to get it. (If not, then why does a man's pre-marriage money be automatically transmuted to "her share" simply because she's added to the deed? A 401(k) doesn't work that way, neither does inheritance -- but it does regardless once her name is listed as co-asset. The courts consider that a "gift" to the marriage, regardless of true intent).
> 
> Also note in the comments folks advise her to divorce the guy asap. God forbid she has to pay alimony for a few years or for the rest of her life! Now that would be wonderful for the guy if that actually happened.
> 
> P.S. If single mommy with OM's child still lived at home with her parents, do you think she could swing Parental Alimony and CS from her parents when she leaves her comfy nest? What makes it any different than a husband supporting her? Oh.. The Ring.
> 
> P.S. This reminds me of someone a friend met after his divorce. This woman tells him that her husband was out of work for "almost 2 years" and during that time, she had to support the two of them. "Can you imagine?" she asks.
> 
> He tells her, "Yes, I can. Because I was the sole income for the entire length of my marriage, and I had to support myself, my ex, and our 3 children. And come to think of it, I'm still supporting my ex and our 3 children, thanks to child support, and I only get to see the kids for 6 days a month now."
> 
> She was going to say something, but then decided against it.
> 
> Needless to say, that was a short date for him.
> 
> Women get very insulted when they are asked to do something that most men are implicitly obligated to do from day one.
> 
> P.S.S. Not surprised if I get banned from this site. Folks have said far less and gotten banned from what I've read-- but sometimes the truth hurts, even if it's not PC in which to discuss it.


So he gets 'credit' for providing a home via his parents? She is fortunate they have that but she is the sole earner of $$$$. They should both contribute money to the household and both pay something to the landlord. But that isn't happening with a deadbeat so best she moves in versus tolerate this one-sided relationship. And I'd say the same for ANY one-sided relationship regardless of gender. Projecting much?


----------



## Thundarr

Dreald said:


> LOL. The double-standard in this thread is amusing.
> 
> OP states "I've worked very hard redecorating the house (that I have no claim to since his parents own it- stupid me). "
> 
> So, She mentioned this is a house that belongs to his parents that she lives in rent free. Amazing the sense of entitlement.
> 
> It's interesting to note how most women's "attraction" for the husband is related to the fact that he works and how they "lose respect for him as a man" when he is not working.
> 
> I'm also sure that if the house was owned directly by him as opposed to his parents, she would've divorced him already to get it. (If not, then why does a man's pre-marriage money be automatically transmuted to "her share" simply because she's added to the deed? A 401(k) doesn't work that way, neither does inheritance -- but it does regardless once her name is listed as co-asset. The courts consider that a "gift" to the marriage, regardless of true intent).
> 
> Also note in the comments folks advise her to divorce the guy asap. God forbid she has to pay alimony for a few years or for the rest of her life! Now that would be wonderful for the guy if that actually happened.
> 
> P.S. If single mommy with OM's child still lived at home with her parents, do you think she could swing Parental Alimony and CS from her parents when she leaves her comfy nest? What makes it any different than a husband supporting her? Oh.. The Ring.
> 
> P.S. This reminds me of someone a friend met after his divorce. This woman tells him that her husband was out of work for "almost 2 years" and during that time, she had to support the two of them. "Can you imagine?" she asks.
> 
> He tells her, "Yes, I can. Because I was the sole income for the entire length of my marriage, and I had to support myself, my ex, and our 3 children. And come to think of it, I'm still supporting my ex and our 3 children, thanks to child support, and I only get to see the kids for 6 days a month now."
> 
> She was going to say something, but then decided against it.
> 
> Needless to say, that was a short date for him.
> 
> Women get very insulted when they are asked to do something that most men are implicitly obligated to do from day one.
> 
> P.S.S. Not surprised if I get banned from this site. Folks have said far less and gotten banned from what I've read-- *but sometimes the truth hurts*, even if it's not PC in which to discuss it.


What's amusing is the statement that *the truth hurts* when the comment was a reaction to a hurtful TRUTH. Most women won't find a deadbeat man who won't work very attractive to be with. That's a fact. The pool of women who are ok working while their man stays home is small and it always will be. The pool of men who are ok working while their woman stays at home is much larger.

Anyone can choose to like or dislike this particular double standard but it changes nothing. A man who can't take care of himself or his family is shameful. For that matter any man or women who puts all of life's load on the other partner is shameful. How proud they must be looking back on their acomplishments at 50 living with mom and dad because they are too weak to sustain their own existence. That's where Pink's SO will be in 5-10 years. Eating moms pancakes every morning waiting on his parents to pass so he gets the house.


----------



## unbelievable

If I quit my job and move back home, I could get pancakes every morning? I wish someone had told me that 34 years ago. My mom makes the best pancakes! Wonder if she'd make biscuits and gravy.


----------



## Theseus

EnjoliWoman said:


> So he gets 'credit' for providing a home via his parents? She is fortunate they have that but she is the sole earner of $$$$. They should both contribute money to the household and both pay something to the landlord. But that isn't happening with a deadbeat so best she moves in versus tolerate this one-sided relationship. And I'd say the same for ANY one-sided relationship regardless of gender. Projecting much?



How is giving him "credit" for a home provided by his parents any different than if he inherited the home from his parents? Or was enjoying a trust fund?

You would say "regardless of gender" that they both should pay something to the landlord? What about housewives?

I guess the problem I see with this whole thread is that most people are focusing on the wrong problem. The problem isn't necessarily that the husband doesn't have a job. The problem is that he is neither seriously looking for a job, nor making an effort to do anything around the house or contribute to anything.


----------



## Thundarr

Theseus said:


> How is giving him "credit" for a home provided by his parents any different than if he inherited the home from his parents? Or was enjoying a trust fund?
> 
> You would say "regardless of gender" that they both should pay something to the landlord? What about housewives?
> 
> I guess the problem I see with this whole thread is that most people are focusing on the wrong problem. The problem isn't necessarily that the husband doesn't have a job. *The problem is that he is neither seriously looking for a job, nor making an effort to do anything around the house or contribute to anything.*


You're right about the actions that define the problem but there's just no way to spin "I'm sponging off my parents" and "I'm also sponging off my wife" as acceptable for a man. I could see a 40 year old needing help short term from parents but that's all the more reason for him to get a job so they can save their money (most older people need to). He should be working and either trying to buy the place at family price or pay rent at family rate. By forty, we're supposed to be startin to help our parents; not burden them. I'm sure his parents are sad that he's not doing well. They would rather give him the house as inheritance than to see him struggle and underacheive and need it for his only shelter. Everything about this guy just screams self centered and naive and low character. Living off his parents is just another symptom. If they really wanted him to be there then it would be in his name. As it stands, they are losing $X per month in rent that someone else would be paying. I let my sister stay in a rental house for a few years rent free. In the end, she didn't realize that I needed rent to make the payments so letting her stay there was a burden. But she got on her feet eventually so it worked out.

It just fits with the rest of his personality that he's entitled and more important than his mom, his dad, or pink. In his mind he deserves for them to provide him a place to live. He then takes credit for his parents charity and thinks he deserves for pink to work and do the housework while he's left doing nothing.


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## Theseus

Thundarr said:


> You're right about the actions that define the problem but there's just no way to spin "I'm sponging off my parents" and "I'm also sponging off my wife" as acceptable for a man.


Is it acceptable for a housewife to "sponge" off her husband? I agree with the rest of what you said however.


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## Zatol Ugot?

Dreald said:


> LOL. The double-standard in this thread is amusing.
> 
> OP states "I've worked very hard redecorating the house (that I have no claim to since his parents own it- stupid me). "
> 
> So, She mentioned this is a house that belongs to his parents that she lives in rent free. Amazing the sense of entitlement.
> 
> It's interesting to note how most women's "attraction" for the husband is related to the fact that he works and how they "lose respect for him as a man" when he is not working.
> 
> I'm also sure that if the house was owned directly by him as opposed to his parents, she would've divorced him already to get it. (If not, then why does a man's pre-marriage money be automatically transmuted to "her share" simply because she's added to the deed? A 401(k) doesn't work that way, neither does inheritance -- but it does regardless once her name is listed as co-asset. The courts consider that a "gift" to the marriage, regardless of true intent).
> 
> Also note in the comments folks advise her to divorce the guy asap. God forbid she has to pay alimony for a few years or for the rest of her life! Now that would be wonderful for the guy if that actually happened.
> 
> P.S. If single mommy with OM's child still lived at home with her parents, do you think she could swing Parental Alimony and CS from her parents when she leaves her comfy nest? What makes it any different than a husband supporting her? Oh.. The Ring.
> 
> P.S. This reminds me of someone a friend met after his divorce. This woman tells him that her husband was out of work for "almost 2 years" and during that time, she had to support the two of them. "Can you imagine?" she asks.
> 
> He tells her, "Yes, I can. Because I was the sole income for the entire length of my marriage, and I had to support myself, my ex, and our 3 children. And come to think of it, I'm still supporting my ex and our 3 children, thanks to child support, and I only get to see the kids for 6 days a month now."
> 
> She was going to say something, but then decided against it.
> 
> Needless to say, that was a short date for him.
> 
> Women get very insulted when they are asked to do something that most men are implicitly obligated to do from day one.
> 
> P.S.S. Not surprised if I get banned from this site. Folks have said far less and gotten banned from what I've read-- but sometimes the truth hurts, even if it's not PC in which to discuss it.


Wow! You sound like a man on a crusade! Got your feelings hurt in the past? Had a girlfriend or wife take advantage of you and now you're projecting on all women? 
If I had to guess, I would say that you read about 5 or 6 posts before the one you posted and then decided that you had enough information to insert your well qualified opinion. If you read the entire post, you will see what an azzhole this guy is. He wants to sit around all day and do whatever he wants to do because his artistic self can't be shackled down to a bourgeois lifestyle of common work and monotony. 
The un-PC thing to say is that he needs to get his lazy azz up off the couch and take off his theater makeup and get a real job. All the OP is asking for is a bit more equity in the level of commitment this guy is willing to put into the marriage. Believe me when I say that I am no fan of modern-day feminists. I will go toe-to-toe against those of the female gender that want to blame all of society's ills on men and play the victim game. But in this case, the OP is definitely doing the right thing by getting away from this useless piece of human debris. Your post makes me think that in your rush to bash the crazy feminist that is railing against men (which is not what this thread is about), you rushed right over a cliff. 
I see that you have been banned. Too bad for that as it would be better for you to stick around and learn a little more.


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## Thundarr

Theseus said:


> Is it acceptable for a housewife to "sponge" off her husband? I agree with the rest of what you said however.


I see your points. No I don't think it's ok either. It's not ok for anyone to set at home with no kids and a dirty house but there are some guys who will put up with it. Personally I think the whole house wife thing only makes sense when raising kids. To me a partnership means shared division of labor ( work+home/2 ). But that's just me. There's plenty of wealthy guys out there happy with their trophy wive's.

Fundamental traits that I deplore are laziness, lack of responsibility, and entitlement. There's all kinds of ways to be productive and responsible but at some point if one partner is doing almost everything and the other partner almost nothing then it's time to fix it or leave it.


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## Jonathan35

Hmmm. Where I come from, a decent home with all of the accoutrements is about $3,000/month. It takes earning $4,000/month to net $3,000. So he is providing almost $50,000 per year. That may be why you aren't leaving.


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## Thundarr

Jonathan35 said:


> Hmmm. Where I come from, a decent home with all of the accoutrements is about $3,000/month. It takes earning $4,000/month to net $3,000. So he is providing almost $50,000 per year. That may be why you aren't leaving.


That stretch has to have an agenda. It would be nice to retain some logic. $3000 per month covers about .01% of the homes being rented in the U.S. The average is more like $500-$1000. Cut that in half for her part of it ($250-$500). So if Pink is buying groceries and paying utilities then she's already gone above 50%. Now add her doing the housework since he want do it.

And lastly, there's been mention on this thread that he's providing the rent. No he's not. His mom and dad are providing it. If they want him to own the house then his name would be on the deed (or morgage if it's not paid yet). They would likely prefer to make a little income on the house or offset the morgage by renting to someone who will actually pay rent. How can Pink or anyone respect a forty plus year old man who's willing to sponge off his parents. He wants to take credit for his parents charity and apparently everyone else is happy to let him. Fine you guys give him credit for his parents spending their retirement money on him. I think he's shameful.


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## pink_lady

I am preparing to move out so husband is making some attempt to get a job. His father told him about some place that had a sign out, so he went and put an app in and had an interview today that evidently didn't go well.

I told him most people have to go through several interviews before they find a job that's a fit, but he is using this as an excuse (imo) to give up again and play the victim. (A victim who lives in a free 3 bedroom house in the suburbs whose parents are not going to let him starve).

He is waiting for someone to come along and rescue him. He seems to think it is someone else's responsibility to deliver a job to him. Like he just can't believe he's expected to actually go out and accomplish this himself.

He keeps moping around and trying to get me to feel sorry for him and give him affection, but after being treated like my needs don't exist for the last 2 years, and his refusal to even consider counseling or admit that anything is wrong with his behavior or the marriage it's just not there anymore. I just want to escape.

I don't think I realized or accepted just how selfish this person is until the last couple of weeks.


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## pink_lady

Thundarr said:


> It just fits with the rest of his personality that he's entitled and more important than his mom, his dad, or pink. In his mind he deserves for them to provide him a place to live. He then takes credit for his parents charity and thinks he deserves for pink to work and do the housework while he's left doing nothing.


Nothing except gushing over other women on Facebook all day and offering them massages all night, that is.


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## pink_lady

Update:
The unemployment ran out, I moved into my new apartment, and H's parents evidently said they had 'written him off' and refused to loan him money to fix his car.

Guess how long it took him to get a job? 

A few days. Boom.


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## Gruff

What a pathetic person. I'm glad you're moving on op.


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## *LittleDeer*

pink_lady said:


> Update:
> The unemployment ran out, I moved into my new apartment, and H's parents evidently said they had 'written him off' and refused to loan him money to fix his car.
> 
> Guess how long it took him to get a job?
> 
> A few days. Boom.


Yay so glad you moved on and his parents put their foot down. That's awesome. Good luck.


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## Thundarr

pink_lady said:


> Update:
> The unemployment ran out, I moved into my new apartment, and H's parents evidently said they had 'written him off' and refused to loan him money to fix his car.
> 
> Guess how long it took him to get a job?
> 
> A few days. Boom.





*LittleDeer* said:


> *Yay so glad you moved on and his parents put their foot down*. That's awesome. Good luck.


Me too. Plus Pink, you now know the warning signs that lead down this road. I doubt you will find yourself ever letting it get this far again. Sometimes heading of disaster at the onset (If you see impending danger) can set things right before they get too far. It's especially important to hold people accountable who've been enabled by their parents. Otherwise they fall into familiar dynamics.


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## SalvageMyMarriage

Good for you! No point staying on with someone who is irresponsible for himself and his family.


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## Nix

Pink, I am so sorry that things in your marriage went down the way that they did. As I was reading the earliest posts in this thread I started to feel a chill, because what you were describing mirrored the situation I find myself in with my W currently.

In my case, after much hemming and hawing and leading up to the discussion, I did tell her it was time for her to return to work. This led to an explosion of resentments which we are still sorting through. Right now, I am guardedly hopeful that we will end up OK in the end, but we're coming out of a three year cycle where I have been paying every bill in the household with no help. Turning around a Titanic of this size is difficult but she IS taking some steps in the right direction. Still no job yet but an admission that it is necessary has come.

My biggest lesson learned is never to allow money to get between me and my spouse by insisting that we each have our own money. This all seemed so chivalrous in the beginning but it has been such a destructive situation in the end.


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## Thundarr

Nix said:


> Pink, I am so sorry that things in your marriage went down the way that they did. As I was reading the earliest posts in this thread I started to feel a chill, because what you were describing mirrored the situation I find myself in with my W currently.
> 
> In my case, after much hemming and hawing and leading up to the discussion, I did tell her it was time for her to return to work. This led to an explosion of resentments which we are still sorting through. Right now, I am guardedly hopeful that we will end up OK in the end, but we're coming out of a three year cycle where I have been paying every bill in the household with no help. Turning around a Titanic of this size is difficult but she IS taking some steps in the right direction. Still no job yet but an admission that it is necessary has come.
> 
> My biggest lesson learned is never to allow money to get between me and my spouse by insisting that we each have our own money. This all seemed so chivalrous in the beginning but it has been such a destructive situation in the end.


No doubt if either partner isn't carrying their half of the load then it's a problem. Sometimes I really want to punch moms and dads in the face for enabling such ill prepared, spoiled, entitled offspring.


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## pink_lady

Nix said:


> Pink, I am so sorry that things in your marriage went down the way that they did. As I was reading the earliest posts in this thread I started to feel a chill, because what you were describing mirrored the situation I find myself in with my W currently.
> 
> In my case, after much hemming and hawing and leading up to the discussion, I did tell her it was time for her to return to work. This led to an explosion of resentments which we are still sorting through. Right now, I am guardedly hopeful that we will end up OK in the end, but we're coming out of a three year cycle where I have been paying every bill in the household with no help. Turning around a Titanic of this size is difficult but she IS taking some steps in the right direction. Still no job yet but an admission that it is necessary has come.
> 
> My biggest lesson learned is never to allow money to get between me and my spouse by insisting that we each have our own money. This all seemed so chivalrous in the beginning but it has been such a destructive situation in the end.


So sorry Nix, I feel for you. From your other posts do I remember your wife is in IC? I hope that helps with the situation.


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## Nix

My wife is seeing one therapist for depression and is about to start seeing a specialist at a crisis center. She is finally open to considering medication for her severe depression. She admitted to me the other day that when she was in her 20s she was so depressed that she was seeing a therapist every single day and was also on heavy meds which did not work. In the end they wanted to do electroshock therapy! She decided to relocate instead and it took her several years, but she did put her life back together again. I met her about 8 years later and we have been together for 10 years. Now she is in another downward spiral and it's getting worse and worse, our relationship used to be very affectionate but now she will barely interact with me. It's classic depression, yes, but I have my own issues too that I am just starting to deal with.

Irony of ironies, she told me she wanted to move to a city 1500 miles away, and lo and behold, I just got a job offer in that city. She doesn't have a job offer yet and plus, things with us are very touch and go at the moment. I wouldn't even consider a relocation unless she was in better shape.


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## Tigger

pink_lady said:


> Update:
> The unemployment ran out, I moved into my new apartment, and H's parents evidently said they had 'written him off' and refused to loan him money to fix his car.
> 
> Guess how long it took him to get a job?
> 
> A few days. Boom.


I'm really happy for you that you got out and away from the nonsense. His getting a job in a couple days proves how lazy and entitled he felt that everyone else should be taking care of him.

Glad you are now free!!!


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## EleGirl

pink_lady said:


> Update:
> The unemployment ran out, I moved into my new apartment, and H's parents evidently said they had 'written him off' and refused to loan him money to fix his car.
> 
> Guess how long it took him to get a job?
> 
> A few days. Boom.


Well what a miracle!!!! 

Funny how that worked out isn't it?


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## Thundarr

Tigger said:


> I'm really happy for you that you got out and away from the nonsense. His getting a job in a couple days proves how lazy and entitled *he felt that everyone else should be taking care of him*.
> 
> Glad you are now free!!!


There's a percentage of people who think like him. Whatever they can get from anyone they figure they deserve it. They're the vacuum cleaner salesmen of the world. The ones who could care less if they're screwing someone and figure it's the other person's fault for being screwable.

Well that's fine. There's a market for leaches because most people don't understand how they think. Most people think they're just not understanding something and that they're just misunderstanding something. Eventually though there's the realization that this person (pink's ex) is just a taker who will let other's do as much as possible while they do as little as possible.

I suppose someone like me disgust them as much as they disgust me. I like it that way.


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## sunvalley

pinklady said:


> Update:
> The unemployment ran out, I moved into my new apartment, and H's parents evidently said they had 'written him off' and refused to loan him money to fix his car.
> 
> Guess how long it took him to get a job?
> 
> A few days. Boom.


Well, what do you know ....

Pink, I'm glad you moved out and stopped the nonsense. I'm rooting for you .... and I have a feeling everything will work out just fine for you.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Hey, PinkLady!

Got a HAPPY update for us? Would love to hear how well you're doing now and if you've done some reading and working on yourself so you feel better/happier about leaving!

*hugs*


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## bunny23

Long ago I was with a great guy.. but he had no direction life wise.. I mean nada.. he worked, got laid off.. lived on unemployment etc.

This was in our early 20's, while I was ambitious and only cared about work and $.
Eventually we got engaged and married.. with the understanding that now he will go to school and work.

There was always an income discrepancy of 60k + between us, but that didn't bother me.. I could have cared less if he made $10 an hour but was working at an organization that would lead to bigger things. But he never did that either. I was also starting to show symptoms of a disorder I now have and was worried if I lost my job we would be out on our a$$.

One day I left the house, had him served (we made it a bit longer than Kim Kardashian) got divorced and moved on.

It actually changed him. He started school, got his degree.. works doing something he loves etc.

What I did after is another story.. I married a total jacka$$ that stole money I SAVED for 2 years.. and all marital assets, he even told me he would support me when I go to school but hasn't. We are in the process of starting a nasty divorce.

I know long story... but point being:
Husband #1 was in his 20's, we had no kids.. he was a good man.. and maybe I should have stuck around longer and figured out that money isn't everything and we need MC ASAP to work on our common goals.

I'm still friends with him and we talked about things, he now has really done a 180 of who he was.

Your husband is in his 40's and shows no initiative.. can he really be so confused at this age? It's ridiculous!!!

You need to wake him up and be supportive- to a point. As someone else said.. are you his mother or his wife?
Is he cleaning like some of the H on this board expect their wives to do? Is he cooking you dinner every day and doing laundry?

Anything else is a double standard. Either he is a stay at home husband with all those responsibilities.. or he is a child that needs to be dealt with and removed from your life.

***OMG I did it again... posted on an old thread!!! But see that you're doing well***


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## Quant

Now you know what men feel like with some women.


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## EleGirl

Quant said:


> Now you know what men feel like with some women.


You would be surprised how many men are just like the OP's husband.


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## Quant

EleGirl said:


> You would be surprised how many men are just like the OP's husband.


Some men are bums but its socially acceptable for women to be bums.


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## EleGirl

Quant said:


> Some men are bums but its socially acceptable for women to be bums.


No, it is not socially acceptable for women to be bums.

If a woman is a SAHM or SAHW and does what is expected of a SAH parent/spouse then she is not a bum. 

A woman who does nothing except play around is not socially acceptable.

ETA: If a husband puts up with a women who does nothing but use him for money so that she can play, he has no one to blame but himself for enabling her bad behavior.

It's the same thing for a women who enables a bum husband.


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## Quant

EleGirl said:


> No, it is not socially acceptable for women to be bums.
> 
> If a woman is a SAHM or SAHW and does what is expected of a SAH parent/spouse then she is not a bum.
> 
> A woman who does nothing except play around is not socially acceptable.
> 
> ETA: If a husband puts up with a women who does nothing but use him for money so that she can play, he has no one to blame but himself for enabling her bad behavior.
> 
> It's the same thing for a women who enables a bum husband.


I agree, I'm just saying there are more bum women who leech then men.


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## EleGirl

Quant said:


> I agree, I'm just saying there are more bum women who leech then men.


Do you have any research that shows this? 

This is your assumption.


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## Thundarr

Quant said:


> I agree, I'm just saying there are more bum women who leech then men.





EleGirl said:


> Do you have any research that shows this?
> 
> This is your assumption.


Do you really need statistical proof on this Ele? The nature of men to overlook other attributes in favor of beauty and youth more often than women do kind of makes this the logical outcome. The nature of women to overlook other attributes in favor of stability and security more often than men also makes this the logical outcome.

It needs effort put into proving about as much as the notion that more men have beer guts. Of course they do. No time required researching to know this


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## bunny23

I disagree.. 

Actually I posted but I don't want to start a war 

So nevermind... just saying.. from my experience men are less inclined to work and have less tolerance for difficulties in life.

A woman can be in crippling pain and still go to work, we all know what happens when a man gets a cold 

All jokes aside unfortunately people like this only drain us emotionally and financially.


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## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> Do you really need statistical proof on this Ele? The nature of men to overlook other attributes in favor of beauty and youth more often than women do kind of makes this the logical outcome. The nature of women to overlook other attributes in favor of stability and security more often than men also makes this the logical outcome.
> 
> It needs effort put into proving about as much as the notion that more men have beer guts. Of course they do. No time required researching to know this


More than fifty percent of all households in the USA have a woman as its prime “breadwinner.”

Surprisingly, in homes where the highest level of education for both spouses is college or beyond, the percent of women supporting the household rises to sixty-seven percent.


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## Thundarr

bunny23 said:


> I disagree..
> 
> Actually I posted but I don't want to start a war
> 
> So nevermind... just saying.. from my experience men are less inclined to work and have less tolerance for difficulties in life.
> 
> A woman can be in crippling pain and still go to work,* we all know what happens when a man gets a cold *
> 
> All jokes aside unfortunately people like this only drain us emotionally and financially.


You have a point there with the whiny cold thingy. We are babies sometimes. I think your snippit *"from my experience"* makes all the difference in outlook. I don't have experience being un-motivated or being with someone who's un-motivated. Even my devil ex was motived which was a good quality .


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## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> More than fifty percent of all households in the USA have a woman as its prime “breadwinner.”
> 
> Surprisingly, in homes where the highest level of education for both spouses is college or beyond, the percent of women supporting the household rises to sixty-seven percent.


I'm finding a lot that says 40% but the point remains the same whether it's 40% or 99%. A role reversal (or atleast adjustment) has occurred over the past 50 years or so when only 10% of women were the prime bread winners.


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## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> I'm finding a lot that says 40% but the point remains the same whether it's 40% or 99%. A role reversal (or atleast adjustment) has occurred over the past 50 years or so when only 10% of women were the prime bread winners.


So what percentage of those women do you thing were bums? I think to assume that a large portion of women are and were bums is quite a leap.


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## MyHappyPlace

My husband doesn't want to work either. So he plays the lottery. lol He keeps grinding on his 40 hrs a week as a LEO waiting for the big payday.


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## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> So what percentage of those women do you thing were bums? I think to assume that a large portion of women are and were bums is quite a leap.


I'll clarify since you're taking my comment as a slam against women which it's not. I don't know which gender has a higher percentage of bums (non productives). I'm pretty sure that both genders have a higher percentage now than in years past though.

My contention is merely that men more often overlook this in women so long she's pretty or sexy or sexual. Women on the other hand don't overlook this "as often" in men IMO. There's a name for a man bum (scrub). So fewer men bums have the opportunity to be married than do women bums, again IMO. Therefore I suspect theres more men bums living in mom/dad's basement and there's more women bums married to some man who thought she was really hot and liked sex.

If you believe women will marry a scrub just as often as men will marry a fem-scrub then we just disagree at a fundamental level.


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## Starstarfish

Isn't it up to each person to determine what their "bum tolerance level" is? I mean if someone is happy with their sexy, drop dead gorgeous, but otherwise useless spouse good for them. And if that's not what you want, then - that's not what you want. 

Also, yes, there is a name for a female "bum" and its flung around here a lot on TAM - golddigger.


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## pink_lady

We've definitely heard from dudes on this forum who are fed up with their do-nothing wives. I don't know- personally I can't imagine living with someone who just takes up space. 

I do believe that women lose respect, then attraction for a husband who refuses to support himself. It's pretty much downhill from there. 

Anyway, I am happily separated and will file for divorce as soon as the state lets me. I just didn't realize how depressed I had become in that relationship until I got away from it. 

I soul searched, took long power walks by the river, talked to girlfriends and family and read until my eyeballs practically fell out.

It's been good to re-read through this thread now and again.

Now I'm enjoying my job, new apartment, friends, community groups, and have just started seeing a guy I might really like. I've also lost about 10 lbs effortlessly which is nice- I don't feel the need to eat to feel better anymore.

My living expenses have gone up quite a bit (rent), but it's so worth it. 

I saw the STBXH recently and he told me he had been fired from his job due to a 'disagreement with his boss'. He's now trying to get a new job through his brother-in-law. 

I am so happy that his lack of employment is no longer my problem. 

Thanks for asking SGW!


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## pink_lady

Oh, and I should add, I've never had one moment of doubt that leaving was the right (really the only) decision. So I never had to agonize over it.

I did agonize over how I could have 'been so stupid'. But I've figured a lot out...I've learned so much since I wrote that first post.


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## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> I'll clarify since you're taking my comment as a slam against women which it's not. I don't know which gender has a higher percentage of bums (non productives). I'm pretty sure that both genders have a higher percentage now than in years past though.
> 
> My contention is merely that men more often overlook this in women so long she's pretty or sexy or sexual. Women on the other hand don't overlook this "as often" in men IMO. There's a name for a man bum (scrub). So fewer men bums have the opportunity to be married than do women bums, again IMO. Therefore I suspect theres more men bums living in mom/dad's basement and there's more women bums married to some man who thought she was really hot and liked sex.
> 
> If you believe women will marry a scrub just as often as men will marry a fem-scrub then we just disagree at a fundamental level.


I get what you are saying. 

My point is that more women then some seem to realize marry a man who does not seem to be a bum. Then then ends up unemployed for one reason for another and never works again.. he becomes a bum.

Happened to the OP. Happened to me. There have been a good number of women here who have had this happen to them.


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## pink_lady

Yeah- that does seem to be how it goes when it's the man who won't work. That type of guy (like my STBXH) is kind of a con man, imo. 

With a woman I guess the idea is at first that she'll take care of the kids and the house, but then when she lets the house and/or herself go that's when the H starts to feel resentment.

I know they are out there, but I personally don't know many couples who can really afford a decent lifestyle with only one income.


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## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> I get what you are saying.
> 
> My point is that more women then some seem to realize marry a man who does not seem to be a bum. Then then ends up unemployed for one reason for another and never works again.. he becomes a bum.
> 
> Happened to the OP. Happened to me. There have been a good number of women here who have had this happen to them.


This makes sense for sure. Men more often have to create a facade of being a provider. It's a classic bait & switch.


----------

