# How long for a relationship to recover?



## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Hi all- my wife issued me an ultimatum about two weeks ago. Among my transgressions are:
1. History of snapping rudely to her
2. Failure to put her first 
3. Failure to stand up to my parents (actually not all that bad now)
4. Easily frustrated with her and the kids

She's an awesome mother and wife. It's been 8 years of frustration for her with me (see above), and she's at her wits end. Her father is battling cancer, and I just got diagnosed with adult adhd.

I have been a very good husband over the past two weeks, but my question is, how long before things get to where they should be, like regular sex? I ask her and she almost gets pissed about it and doesn't want to talk.

She doesn't even want to talk about it. "Just bloody well do it" she
says.

Help! What to do, what to ask her!


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I think I'd tell her that if you work on changing for her sake and she isn't going to help you and acknowledge your efforts then why bother at all? I mean, you're supposed to be a "couple" in a "relationship". 

You may also want to consider getting some help to learn to make permanent changes.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> It's 3 months of good behavior to offset every year of bad.
> 
> You're looking at 2 years.
> 
> Sucks doesn't it?


I'll regret saying this, but women tend to never forget.


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Seriously? Whoa- I'm asking her about sex now and she doesn't really want to talk about it. 2 years?

What should I do, and how should I act?
Again help!


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Do I have any hope at all? Or is her mind made up about me? I hoping that if she hasn't,


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Yeah, my adhd is now sorted out with meds, and she approves. How long for the whole marriage, if I am changed, to recover?


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

two weeks is nothing. She wants to see a permanent change. Maybe you need to date her again. Remind her of the guy she fell in love with. When was the last time you asked her out? I bet her main fear is that you try, change, then go back to your old ways. Have you been down this road before?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

therigger said:


> Do I have any hope at all? Or is her mind made up about me? I hoping that if she hasn't,


Stop obsessing over it, take one hour and day at a time and make yourself better.


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes, I've been down this road before, unfortunately.

How much 'I love you', kiss, hug, etc. should I be doing? She will, and looks for back rubs still.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

It sounds to me like the changes you are making come with expectations. If you do so and so, she should give you sex. Ummm not cool. Sex isn't a reward for good behaviour. She's probably so resentful and hurt by your past behaviour that having sex with you feels like a chore rather than a pleasure. Just saying...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

tracyishere, you made sense. can you explain to me what I should be doing, the approach I should take?


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

It's hard for me to give advice not knowing your wife. However, I at one point was not interested in sex with my husband either because he was not meeting my needs. What is your wife's expectations of you? Do you resent her for having these expectations? What are your expectations from her? Does she know them? How does she feel about them? Are your expectations realistic and attainable? Or are you setting yourself up for failure?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

tracyishere said:


> Sex isn't a reward for good behaviour.


WHAT!?! 

It's not???


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

Dont' act like you are doing things to get in her pants. You need to seriously date your wife again like you did the first time around. Be a gentleman. She is probably thinking "he's just saying that/doing that to get sex" Show her you cherish her, love her, and it not just about sex. Kiss her, hug her without expectations.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> WHAT!?!
> 
> It's not???


Ok if it is then you don't get sex when your bad. And allot girls like naughty boys. Just saying...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Her needs are just as important as your need for sex. In fact her needs may be more important than yours. You can go in the bathroom and choke your chicken to get some relief. What can she do if you do not put her first? She could go looking for a man that will put her first but that is not good for anyone. 

She has even given you a detailed list so you do not need a whole lot of advice on that; *just DO IT, GETTER-DONE!!!*


If she is a forgiving woman, you both have love for each other, and you do your part, you both will get a lot better in a few months. If you are lucky you may see an improvement in a few weeks.


Blunt


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Well, symptoms I have noticed: 
1. She hasn't kissed me or touched me in any way spontaneously in the last few years
2. She hasn't told me she loves me directly in a long time
3. It feels like sometime she is constantly mad with me
4. Tells me that if I give her a hard time about no sex, she will resent me 
5. Sex for her with me seems like "let's get this over with"

What I do know: 
1. She is a real person. Very deep, no bs, acts how she feels. She fakes nothing (including when having sex).
2. In her family growing up, outward lovey/dovey shows were rarely expressed
3. She is hard working, a really good mother

Perhaps i am being too sensitive, but I have done damage, which I think prevents her from feeling a certain way, and there is resentment for me for sure.

Again, what to do to show I am a changed man?


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Change. Actions over words. Start by admitting to her that you have failed at meeting her needs. Do things because you want to, not because you have to. Change your attitude. Be confident, be kind, be fun and be the man she first came to love by doing things you haven't done in years. Hold hands, reminisce about old times, dance, make jokes, tell her you love her everyday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

As someone who's gone through this, I hope the minimum for you is months, but as someone else pointed out, it could be years, but I think your actions will play a big part in how long it takes.

With my marriage, I _wanted_ to move on and put things in the past, but it's not always easy. I had a ton of resentment built up. H and I couldn't talk about anything serious at all and our marriage suffered a great deal. 

Finally, things just blew up and slowly, we've been working through things. It's been a few months and we're still working. I can see little changes with him. We've had setbacks, but are committed to each other.

Your wife's behavior sounds very much like mine when I felt "done" so there is hope, she may still come around, but it's going to take a lot of work from both of you. I only want to be intimate with my H when I feel emotionally connected to him; when we were on the outs, I didn't even want him touching me. 

Start with the back rubs, but don't expect anything in return. What you do outside of the bedroom has an impact on what happens in it. Your W wants to see definitely improvements from you so at this point, just do it.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

therigger said:


> Again, what to do to show I am a changed man?


Can you sit down and ask her directly? It looks like she already gave you some ideas on what she wants. Even if you did them all in one day, it will take some time for her to thaw, and you have to be patient.

I mean, there are things I wanted my H to do that may be totally different from what your W wants. 

I also had a problem with feeling like my H didn't put me first. We talked about it. It was mainly his job and him bringing work home or being too involved in his friends' problems. He's slowly been working on these things, and since I can see him trying, I became more willing to try.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

It's cute when your dog does tricks with the obvious goal of getting a treat. It's less cute, and not very attractive, when your husband does tricks with the obvious goal of getting sex. Because most women can tell that when he's gotten what he wanted out of the deal, he'll stop doing the trick until the next time he wants a treat. Would you want to spend time romancing a woman who is always a b!tch to you? Then why do you think your wife wants to spend time having sex with a man who is always a bit of an @ss to her?

Your wife wants you to love her. She wants sex to be a natural expression of the great, loving, emotionally intimate relationship the two of you share. Do you have an emotionally intimate relationship? I'm guessing you would answer that question by wondering what that even means, while your wife would answer with a resounding "no". The book _His Needs, Her Needs _by Willard Harley might be a good place to start learning about the needs both of you have (they're probably very different) that the other may or may not be meeting. 

In the meantime, woo your wife. And stop doing tricks with the obvious goal of getting a treat. Change yourself because you want to be a great husband to your wife and want to share a warm, loving, fulfilling, emotionally and sexually intimate relationship with her. There's a difference between that and the mindset of "Hey, look, I haven't been a d!ckhead in two whole weeks (never mind the 8 years before that or all the other times I've "changed" but backslid)! Where's my treat?!?!"


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

therigger said:


> Hi all- my wife issued me an ultimatum about two weeks ago. Among my transgressions are:
> 1. History of snapping rudely to her
> 2. Failure to put her first
> 3. Failure to stand up to my parents (actually not all that bad now)
> ...


Sorry what you are going through but IMHO your wife may just not love you anymore due to years of abuse and she doesn't feel emotionally safe in your presence. Thats HUGE for women. This feeling of "safety" is not unique to women btw. Men also need to feel safe emotionally but place it lower in priority than women do. Your wife basically thinks you are an ******* and the fact that your priority is getting between her legs instead of addressing the very real damage you have done speaks volumes.

1. You need to sit her down and apologize for behaving this way and mean like you have only days to live. This also includes the kids.

2. You need to enroll in an anger management course.

3. Make time for IC and MC. Let her see you are making some permanent changes.

Having said all of this, eight years of a miserable marriage will take its toll on any person. If I invited you to sail away with me (marriage) for eight years and it was constant choppy waters and frequent hurricane force winds, a normal person could be desperate enough to jump into the water to drown and/or take their chances in a lifejacket and swim to shore away from you. Your wife right now is in the water swimming away from you and as soon as she reaches the shore you are done. 

You as the cause of the turmoil, choppy waters and hurricane force winds need to adjust the sails, pickup your wife from the water and try your DAM hardest to keep the ship in calm seas. Freak waves happen but stop sailing into the dark clouds!

I pray you make the necessary changes and give your wife the emotional safety she wants or you will be sailing solo.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

A lot longer then two weeks. 

Really, it's up to her to decide, not you. When someone has been treated poorly, it never goes away. The words and actions that were done stay for life. It might take a long while before she trust you again, but it's very awesome that your trying. Keep it up... for the long haul.


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## therigger (Aug 28, 2012)

Ok, I think I'm on the right path. Adhd under control, need to be a man that puts her and our family first. Pleasant and happy, supportive, taking time to listen and for us to connect. Non-sexual Back rubs, physical contact w/o the horny. No talk of sex until she seems like she's ready...might be months.

I think I'm in for a long haul. Either I tough this out and be a man she finds attractive eventually, or I give up and lose her. 

Question for everyone: how much lovey-dovey, physical affection should I show? I'm thinking no ass-grabbing, etc. One squeeze, one kiss, one I love you daily should be enough? For the women out there, what do you think for a man in my situation?


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

A lot longer then 2 weeks


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## JrsMrs (Dec 27, 2010)

therigger said:


> Ok, I think I'm on the right path. Adhd under control, need to be a man that puts her and our family first. Pleasant and happy, supportive, taking time to listen and for us to connect. Non-sexual Back rubs, physical contact w/o the horny. No talk of sex until she seems like she's ready...might be months.
> 
> I think I'm in for a long haul. Either I tough this out and be a man she finds attractive eventually, or I give up and lose her.
> 
> Question for everyone: how much lovey-dovey, physical affection should I show? I'm thinking no ass-grabbing, etc. One squeeze, one kiss, one I love you daily should be enough? For the women out there, what do you think for a man in my situation?


My husband was also recently diagnosed with ADHD, and most people will never realize the magnitude of problems this adds to a relationship.
Being medicated does not mean your symptoms are under control. You need to find a therapist and make that part of your treatment as well.
As to your other questions, people are all different. How affectionate do YOU like being? How many kisses a day make you feel loved? I feel like you're trying to tick off your to-do list titled 'how to make my wife happy'. This isn't like feeding your cat where you fill a bowl with a half cup of food and know you've done enough for it for the day, or getting in your 30 mins on the treadmill.
I'm sorry, this is hitting a little too close to home for me, but saying things like 'is one 'I love you' a day enough?' is just so... I don't even know. I feel for you and the condition you're dealing with, I really do, but it's clear you really don't get it. There is no quota for daily kisses that will ensure marital success.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Touch can be a very powerful tool. You need to be the judge based on how she responds,When you kiss does she pull away? does she get annoyed when you grab her ass? Does she reply when you say you love her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

How long to recover?

At least until you stop waiting for it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

therigger said:


> Well, symptoms I have noticed:
> 1. She hasn't kissed me or touched me in any way spontaneously in the last few years
> 2. She hasn't told me she loves me directly in a long time
> 3. It feels like sometime she is constantly mad with me
> ...


It is not possible for you to be a changed man in only two weeks' time. The fact that you are asking for a timeline says to me that you are looking to find out how long you are supposed to keep up the act until she changes her mind. 

I hope that you are really serious about making changes, because it will make you a better partner in the future for her, or for some other woman should she decide to divorce you. I was married to a man like how you described yourself, and I was miserable and divorced him.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm on the getting better end of this situation now. My husband was very verbally abusive (a whole lot worse than your list) for about 7 years before he decided to make real changes. I had fallen for the I'm gonna change line far too many times by that point and I quite frankly didn't trust that he was serious. 

It took me 9 months of him improving his behavior and getting help for me to even take him seriously, let alone for me to think about working on the relationship. I didn't want him touching me, I sure as heck didn't want sex, I didn't want to spend time with him, I didn't even want him telling me he loved me. The best thing he did for me was to give me the time and space I needed with no pressure of any kind to heal and get myself put back together, all the while he continued to work on himself. He let me set the pace and showed me with actions day after day after day that he was serious. That let me know that he cared about ME and how I felt and what I meeded. He told me he knew how badly he had messed up, that he only wanted me and that he would wrok on himself and he'd wait 20 years if that's what it took.

It took another month or so to start really spending time together and dating again, another few months for some sex and we are just now, a year and 9 months later, starting to be a real couple again with being happy together and being good to each other and supporting each other and sharing with each other and becoming close and maybe starting to have regular sex again. He has been in therapy this whole time, continues to go and makes it entirely his responsibility to do so. I think Mavash is right on with the 3 months for every bad year. We took things slowly and rebuilt something that would last. The quickie band aid and rug sweep approach doesn't work, been there, done that. 

Your wife gave you a list, but did she tell what else she needed and wanted? Space, time, dates, does she even want the lovey dovey stuff right now? Does she want to set the pace? Have you asked her? Seriously, getting in her pants should be the LAST thing on your mind right now. She will know if that's what you are aiming for and all it's going to do is push her further and further away. Show her you love her through your actions in the way she needs for where she is in her healing process every day and the rest will come in time. Rushing, pressure, check lists of what to do, too much too soon and ulterior motives are going to do nothing but make it all worse. My husband gave me exactly what I needed and put his needs on hold and it was perfect for me and makes me appreciate him and want him all the more now for it. You have to go slow to go fast when it comes to fixing a marriage. 

Good luck to you.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

And I agree with 3xnocharm - I was told it takes at least 18 months of consistent good behavior to buy into the whole "I've changed" thing. My husband NEVER talks about how much he has changed, never uses the words, EVER. He doesn't need to, his actions speak for themselves.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

therigger said:


> Well, symptoms I have noticed:
> 1. She hasn't kissed me or touched me in any way spontaneously in the last few years
> 2. She hasn't told me she loves me directly in a long time
> 3. It feels like sometime she is constantly mad with me
> ...


You are not being too sensitive. Who wants to be with someone who is not interested in reciprocating? No affection, crappy sex, anger, hostility, no love. What is the point then? And you are suppose NOT resent no sex? She gives you ultimatums and if you do not comply like a dog you are not rewarded...Even a dog being trained gets petted. 

She has expected changes from you and you have agreed to those changes. Make those changes. In parallel outline to her what you just wrote above for her to make her own bloody changes. If she refuses tell her its best then for both of you to split up. That you are not lower than a family pet and deserve better.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Mr Blunt said:


> Her needs are just as important as your need for sex. In fact her needs may be more important than yours. You can go in the bathroom and choke your chicken to get some relief.


No man should ever believe this. No man should ever apologize for his sexual needs. Telling a man who is being deprived of his sexual needs to masturbate is little different than telling a starving man that, at least he'll lose some weight.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> You are not being too sensitive. Who wants to be with someone who is not interested in reciprocating? No affection, crappy sex, anger, hostility, no love. What is the point then? And you are suppose NOT resent no sex? She gives you ultimatums and if you do not comply like a dog you are not rewarded...Even a dog being trained gets petted.
> 
> She has expected changes from you and you have agreed to those changes. Make those changes. In parallel outline to her what you just wrote above for her to make her own bloody changes. If she refuses tell her its best then for both of you to split up. That you are not lower than a family pet and deserve better.



So she is supposed to not be affected by the damage he has done for 8 years and he gets to demand how she responds to his promise to change? What he is seeing from her is a result of years and years of mistreatment - and based on what he said, other failed attempts to change. Blaming her for the result of his actions is way off base. I was the same way she is, even worse. A person can only take so much before it affects them deeply. 

There are layers and layers of deep hurt and resentment and anger after this long. She isn't going to be able to just flip the switch and be all "oh, I'm so grateful you promised to change again, please tell me what I can do to make all your dreams come true.". It doesn't work that way after this many years. He needs to earn that place back through his daily actions. Her ultimatum is her telling him she is just about completely done. This is the rock bottom point in their marriage. Been there, it sucks for everyone, not just him. Do you think she enjoys life being this way? Do you think this is what she dreamed of when she married? Do you think this is the kind of family life she wants for her or the kids? It takes years of mistreatment, hurt, and anger to get where she is. It is a consequence of his behavior.

I'm sure she has her things that she needs to work on and she's contributed to the relationship problems as well. Even though my husband was abusive, everything wasn't his fault and I had things to work on, too, but as he changed, I started to realize that and worked on my stuff, too. Now we work on things together, speak up kindly when either doesn't like something, ask and tell each other what we need, try to speak each others love languages. But you have to rebuild a foundation to get to that place. You absolutley cannot demand it.

I can tell you this, if my husband had copped the attitude you are suggesting, I would have left him without looking back. Instead we are enjoying building a loving marriage together.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Rowan said:


> It's cute when your dog does tricks with the obvious goal of getting a treat. It's less cute, and not very attractive, when your husband does tricks with the obvious goal of getting sex.


It amazes me that women use sex as a reward and withhold sex as a punishment, then complain when men start playing along. If you don't want your husband viewing sex/lack of sex as a reward/punishment, then stop treating it as such.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

therigger said:


> I have been a very good husband over the past two weeks, but my question is, how long before things get to where they should be, like regular sex? I ask her and she almost gets pissed about it and doesn't want to talk.
> 
> She doesn't even want to talk about it. "Just bloody well do it" she
> says.
> ...


Don't ask her anything. Asking is a sign of weakness. Doing something, then turning to her for approval, is a turn off. Don't expect sex because she's just not attracted to you.

The good news is, you can probably make the changes necessary for her to become attracted to you again. When she's attracted to you, she'll want to have sex with you. I suggest going to Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. and reading all you can. Run the Mindful Attraction Plan (MAP).


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> It amazes me that women use sex as a reward and withhold sex as a punishment, then complain when men start playing along. If you don't want your husband viewing sex/lack of sex as a reward/punishment, then stop treating it as such.


Wow. Really. Thanks for that. 

FYI, I never withheld sex from my husband, never used our sexual relationship as a punishment or as a reward. The worse he treated me, though, the less sexually interested I became - because it's hard to get all hot and bothered for a guy who behaves like an @ss. We were down to 2-5 times per week when I found out he was a serial cheater. After that, I was "withholding" sex because I was too busy buying my own house, moving out with our son, and filing for divorce. 

Not every woman is a man-hating harpy bent on punishing her husband for his sexuality.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

rowan said:


> fyi, i never withheld sex from my husband, never used our sexual relationship as a punishment or as a reward. The worse he treated me, though, the less sexually interested i became - because it's hard to get all hot and bothered for a guy who behaves like an @ss.
> 
> Not every woman is a man-hating harpy bent on punishing her husband for his sexuality.


exactly!!


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Dahlia92 said:


> So she is supposed to not be affected by the damage he has done for 8 years and he gets to demand how she responds to his promise to change? What he is seeing from her is a result of years and years of mistreatment - and based on what he said, other failed attempts to change. Blaming her for the result of his actions is way off base. I was the same way she is, even worse. A person can only take so much before it affects them deeply.
> 
> There are layers and layers of deep hurt and resentment and anger after this long. She isn't going to be able to just flip the switch and be all "oh, I'm so grateful you promised to change again, please tell me what I can do to make all your dreams come true.". It doesn't work that way after this many years. He needs to earn that place back through his daily actions. Her ultimatum is her telling him she is just about completely done. This is the rock bottom point in their marriage. Been there, it sucks for everyone, not just him. Do you think she enjoys life being this way? Do you think this is what she dreamed of when she married? Do you think this is the kind of family life she wants for her or the kids? It takes years of mistreatment, hurt, and anger to get where she is. It is a consequence of his behavior.
> 
> ...


1_. She hasn't kissed me or touched me in any way spontaneously in the last few years
2. She hasn't told me she loves me directly in a long time
3. It feels like sometime she is constantly mad with me
4. Tells me that if I give her a hard time about no sex, she will resent me
5. Sex for her with me seems like "let's get this over with"
_

He has to talk to her about this. To continue without changes on her side is is pointless. At least a road map. If she say too late I am done then he should just say ok, good bye.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt *
> Her needs are just as important as your need for sex. In fact her needs may be more important than yours. You can go in the bathroom and choke your chicken to get some relief.
> 
> *Reply by PHTLump*
> No man should ever believe this. No man should ever apologize for his sexual needs. Telling a man who is being deprived of his sexual needs to masturbate is little different than telling a starving man that, at least he'll lose some weight.



I have not said that he should apologize for his sexual needs. That statement you made is a diversion.

My point was: 
"Her needs are just as important as your need for sex. In fact her needs may be more important than yours"

Your reply that 
“No man should ever believe this”
Is a sure way to have this man to continue to have serious problems with his wife.

This man has neglected his wife for 8 years!
He has tried to change for 2 weeks!
*At this point he needs to concentrate on her needs more than him getting sex from his wife and her desiring it. *You did read his post where he said that his wife is giving him sex did you not? 
"Just bloody well do it" she says."

He can have sex if he wants he just wants her to desire him. He has neglected her for 8 years and she does not desire him so he is going to have to put her needs at the top of his list. *His sex goals are going to have to wait until he does something about his 8 years of neglect.*
You concentrating on his sexual situation is focusing on the lesser problem and will get him nowhere.


He has been asking several times what he should do. His wife gave him a list (see below) so I do not think that he is in the dark about what to do. 

*



1. History of snapping rudely to her
2. Failure to put her first 
3. Failure to stand up to my parents (actually not all that bad now)
4. Easily frustrated with her and the kids

Click to expand...

*He is getting sex from his wife it is just not as fulfilling as he would like. He has damaged the relationship for eight years and now he needs to get busy working on the list that she gave him. *No more talk just ACTION!!!* *At this point he needs to get his mind off him getting better sex and put her first. If he does not then he may have to choke his chicken or watch his marriage completely crumble.*


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Dahlia92 said:


> I'm on the getting better end of this situation now. My husband was very verbally abusive (a whole lot worse than your list) for about 7 years before he decided to make real changes. I had fallen for the I'm gonna change line far too many times by that point and I quite frankly didn't trust that he was serious.
> 
> It took me 9 months of him improving his behavior and getting help for me to even take him seriously, let alone for me to think about working on the relationship. I didn't want him touching me, I sure as heck didn't want sex, I didn't want to spend time with him, I didn't even want him telling me he loved me. The best thing he did for me was to give me the time and space I needed with no pressure of any kind to heal and get myself put back together, all the while he continued to work on himself. He let me set the pace and showed me with actions day after day after day that he was serious. That let me know that he cared about ME and how I felt and what I meeded. He told me he knew how badly he had messed up, that he only wanted me and that he would wrok on himself and he'd wait 20 years if that's what it took.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was saying earlier. Trust isn't just from cheating. It comes from trusting your emotional and physical safety with your partner. If you don't feel safe in the relantionship sex is the last thing on the mind. My verbally abusive ex would use sex as a weapon or to "get me in line" and eventually because of all the hatred I built up I would tell her to go F another man because I didn't want it. Yes its possible for a man to reject sex due to emotions.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Wow. Really. Thanks for that.
> 
> FYI, I never withheld sex from my husband, never used our sexual relationship as a punishment or as a reward.


Believe it, or not, my statement had nothing to do with your relationship with your ex-husband. You made a general statement about how women don't like it when men treat sex as a reward for good behavior. I agree with your statement. Then, I made a general statement about how women are often guilty of instilling the very attitude that turns them off.



> Not every woman is a man-hating harpy bent on punishing her husband for his sexuality.


That's true. But some are. And some are guilty of unintentionally punishing their husbands.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Mr Blunt said:


> My point was:
> "Her needs are just as important as your need for sex. In fact her needs may be more important than yours"
> 
> Your reply that
> ...


I disagree. I think that a marriage with one important partner and one unimportant partner is the surest way to have serious problems.



> This man has neglected his wife for 8 years!
> He has tried to change for 2 weeks!
> At this point he needs to concentrate on her needs more than him getting sex from his wife and her desiring it.


I agree. He has to do some heavy lifting to repair damage. And I agree that he shouldn't expect passionate sex very soon. I just took issue with your assertion that her needs were more important than his.



> You did read his post where he said that his wife is giving him sex did you not?
> "Just bloody well do it" she says."


You consider that meeting his sexual needs? I disagree. That's just her being passive aggressive. Athol Kay called it "hating him with her vagina."



> He can have sex if he wants he just wants her to desire him. He has neglected her for 8 years and she does not desire him so he is going to have to put her needs at the top of his list. His sex goals are going to have to wait until he does something about his 8 years of neglect.
> You concentrating on his sexual situation is focusing on the lesser problem and will get him nowhere.


I agree with the tactics of him doing heavy lifting. However, I just disagree about the ultimate goal. Ultimately, I would want, and I bet the OP would want, a marriage where each person meets the others needs in a loving manner. If the OP adopts your strategy, of stating that his wife's needs are more important than his are, there is a danger that that dynamic never goes away. I suppose, if his wife is unable to put aside her past resentments and work together with her husband on repairing her marriage, then a temporary arrangement of him doing more than her might work. But I think it must be understood to be temporary. And I think a better solution is for both people to work together to start meeting each other's needs right now and have a good marriage starting today.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

I recommend reading "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Lovebusters" to help you both figure out what you both want and how to get it.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> 1_. She hasn't kissed me or touched me in any way spontaneously in the last few years
> 2. She hasn't told me she loves me directly in a long time
> 3. It feels like sometime she is constantly mad with me
> 4. Tells me that if I give her a hard time about no sex, she will resent me
> ...


Her being this way is a direct result of the way that he has treated her for so many years, she no longer feels love or desire for a man who has treated her badly. It's up to HIM to fix this. Telling her she needs to change, too, isn't going to work. He can talk to her about it all he wants, and if he gets and answer it's probably going to be along the lines of I told you what you need to do to fix it or I'm this way because of what you did or quit pressuring me. 

The only way any if this will change is if he takes action and make consistent positive changes. Her attitude will change when she can see he is serious, she can see through his actions that she can trust him again and he has been good to her for long enough that she starts to feel good things for him again. He may have to put in good effort for a while with nothing visible in return from her. He has to feed and water the roots before anything visible will start to grow above the surface.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I suppose, if his wife is unable to put aside her past resentments and work together with her husband on repairing her marriage, then a temporary arrangement of him doing more than her might work. But I think it must be understood to be temporary. And I think a better solution is for both people to work together to start meeting each other's needs right now and have a good marriage starting today.


She is probably at the point where she just has nothing left to give. He does need to do the heavy lifting and put her first temporarily. It's not meant to be a forever thing, if she takes it that way, then she has issues that need to be addressed. It's meant to be time for him to repair the damage that he caused. Once she can feel good about things again, she will likely be more than happy to pitch in and work together. The goal is to get to the point of having a healthy reciprocal relationship. 

I was at the point with my husband where there were days I hated him, there were days I was totally apathetic toward him, there were days I still remembered how wonderful things were when we first married and grieved for those days. That is a really tough place and if he had asked me to pitch in and work with him on things at the lowest point, I just couldn't have done it, I just didn't have it in me anymore, even though I had spent years begging for just that. His therapist last summer told him we needed to start going on dates and spending time together if we were ever going to fix this. It was another two months before I could even stand to do that. If she is anywhere near this place, there is no working together, there is only him taking action until there has been enough damage repaired that she feels comfortable in joining him in repairing the marriage.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

Dahlia92 said:


> I was at the point with my husband where there were days I hated him, there were days I was totally apathetic toward him, there were days I still remembered how wonderful things were when we first married and grieved for those days. That is a really tough place and if he had asked me to pitch in and work with him on things at the lowest point, he probably would have gottent an ear full, even though I had spent years begging for just that. His therapist last summer told him we needed to start going on dates and spending time together if we were ever going to fix this. It was another two months before I could even stand to do that. If she is anywhere near this place, there is no working together, there is only him taking action until there has been enough damage repaired that she feels comfortable in joining him in repairing the marriage.


:iagree:
I've been there, too, and I know exactly how it feels. What worked in our favor is that I didn't feel like I'd put up with 8 years of neglect; had it been that long, maybe we'd be divorced now, I'm not sure. Ours was more like the past couple of years.

Although H definitely didn't have the nerve to ask me to do anything, I offered anyway, and he said there wasn't anything for me to do (there was, he was just desperate and didn't want to make me angry, I guess). I made changes on my own in areas where I thought I'd failed as a wife, and "made changes" is what made a difference, not just for me, but for my H, too. I told my H the same thing that's been stated here numerous times: actions, not words.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm another like your wife. Every relationship is different, and there's really no predicting how long it will take until yours is recovered. I can say though, that it matters a lot that you've understood the problem and are trying. Keep being that changed person, pay attention to how your wife responds to you, and I'm sure eventually you guys will get back on track.

Good luck.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Blunt*
> He can have sex if he wants he just wants her to desire him. He has neglected her for 8 years and she does not desire him so he is going to have to put her needs at the top of his list. His sex goals are going to have to wait until he does something about his 8 years of neglect.
> You concentrating on his sexual situation is focusing on the lesser problem and will get him nowhere.
> 
> ...



*Do you not understand that a person that has been neglected for EIGHT YEARS is not going to desire sex in two weeks with the one who neglected her all that time?*

When you have been hurt for eight years you are not quite ready to 
*“…meet the others need in a loving manner”*

When you have been hurt for eight years you are not quite ready to 
*“…have a good marriage starting today”*

You do not seem to see the woman’s side of this and/ or you live in fantasyland. The hurt time (8 years vs 2 weeks) is way lopsided and the needs of the hurt woman are more important right now. If you wanted to find out about a woman’s view you can read a few posts on this thread. For starters you can read the posts by Dahlia92, MamabZee, and traciishere.

I am a man and I can clearly see that her needs are more important right now. I also think that you wanting her to meet more of his sexual needs right now, such as desiring him, show that you do not have a good understanding of this situation.



To the OP
You have some catching up to do. Because of your actions for eight years you are not going to get your wife to desire sex with you today or anytime soon. You caused the problem so now you are going to have to put her first for a while. * I cannot tell if you really want to make it up to your wife because of your love for her or you just want better sex. Which is it?*


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Mr Blunt said:


> Do you not understand that a person that has been neglected for EIGHT YEARS is not going to desire sex in two weeks with the one who neglected her all that time?


Sure. I understand that. I also understand that you believe that a wife who has been neglected for 8 years takes priority in the marriage. She becomes more important than her husband. Her needs are more important than his are. I just disagree. Can you understand the goal of having a marriage of equals?



> You do not seem to see the woman’s side of this and/ or you live in fantasyland. The hurt time (8 years vs 2 weeks) is way lopsided and the needs of the hurt woman are more important right now. If you wanted to find out about a woman’s view you can read a few posts on this thread. For starters you can read the posts by Dahlia92, MamabZee, and traciishere.


I understand the point of view. I understand both being reluctant to believe that real change has occurred, and the desire to make your husband hurt as much as he has hurt you. I completely understand that. I'm just acknowledging that, by either reluctance, or revenge, a dynamic of one person being more important than the other should not emerge.



> I am a man and I can clearly see that her needs are more important right now. I also think that you wanting her to meet more of his sexual needs right now, such as desiring him, show that you do not have a good understanding of this situation.


I think I understand the situation just as well as you do. We just differ on how best to handle it. You think that the OP should go beyond being considerate of his wife. He should go beyond being a good husband and proving to her that he will continue to consider her and meet her needs for weeks, months, and years. You want him to supplicate himself to her. You want him to become less important than she is. You want retribution. I just disagree that your strategy would be more effective than beginning a healthy marriage dynamic, as healthy as possible, starting today.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

@PHTlump, obviously I'm not Mr Blunt but when you say "she becomes more important than her husband" I have to disagree. Of course she's not more important than he is but she's the one who's so unhappy. The OP admitted what he did to lead to the situation. He's the one here asking how to fix things with her so he realizes he has work to do.

Yes, a marriage should always be between equals but there are going to be times where one spouse's needs are higher than the other's. If this were an infidelity situation, the cheater would have a lot more work to do than the one cheated upon. It doesn't make one more important, it just means one has more work to do than the other.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> 1_. She hasn't kissed me or touched me in any way spontaneously in the last few years
> 2. She hasn't told me she loves me directly in a long time
> 3. It feels like sometime she is constantly mad with me
> 4. Tells me that if I give her a hard time about no sex, she will resent me
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MambaZee said:


> @PHTlump, obviously I'm not Mr Blunt but when you say "she becomes more important than her husband" I have to disagree. Of course she's not more important than he is but she's the one who's so unhappy. The OP admitted what he did to lead to the situation. He's the one here asking how to fix things with her so he realizes he has work to do.


I was responding to Blunt's post where he said that the wife's needs were more important than the husband's sexual needs because the husband could masturbate, and thus satisfy himself. That's an offensive statement. That kind of attitude is why a great many men accept frigid wives and put themselves last in the marriage.

I do recognize that, if the OP has neglected his wife for years, then he must be the one to do the heavy lifting to repair the damage. But, that must be a temporary situation with the understanding that a healthy marriage dynamic is coming.

In cases of infidelity, retribution is rarely advised and is rarely effective. Transparency is often recommended. And it is recommended for both spouses. Even the loyal spouse should allow the disloyal spouse to examine his phone or email. Because that's what a healthy marriage entails. It would be much less helpful to advise the disloyal spouse to be transparent, but the loyal spouse should keep secrets.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

PHTlump, you need to understand that sex isn't something a woman can just "give" a man to meet one of his needs. Sex is a giving of the self, and you can't just demand that one person give a part of themselves because you have needs. Sex, if it's not freely and willingly given, quickly becomes something very ugly. That's why the OP needs to put his need for sex on a back burner. Pushing his wife for it is the quickest way to make her feel used and end their marriage for good.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Sure. I understand that. I also understand that you believe that a wife who has been neglected for 8 years takes priority in the marriage. She becomes more important than her husband. Her needs are more important than his are. I just disagree. Can you understand the goal of having a marriage of equals?
> 
> 
> I understand the point of view. I understand both being reluctant to believe that real change has occurred, and the desire to make your husband hurt as much as he has hurt you. I completely understand that. I'm just acknowledging that, by either reluctance, or revenge, a dynamic of one person being more important than the other should not emerge.
> ...


Wow.....I disagree that you understand the situation. I don't think you understand the woman's point of view and the relationship dynamic that develops in this kind of situation at all. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with reluctance or desiring to make the other spouse hurt like you have or supplicating himself to her or retribution. Absolutely NOTHING to do with those things AT ALL.

A woman who has been through this is beaten down, has given and given and given for years and has been treated badly in return, has probably done everything she can think of to get her husband to hear her, has been treated so badly that she has lost her loving feelings and desire for him, has figuratively and maybe even literally jumped up and down begging for him to see what is happening, begging for him to get help, begging for him to see what this is doing to her and work with her to fix it. She has begged, pleaded, talked, asked, suggested, offered, given, tried to fix it herself and failed, probably over and over again after this many years. She has tried and wanted more than anything for him to try, too, and he didn't or wouldn't and kept doing his thing. She is beaten down, burned out, has exhausted herself and literally has nothing left to give after being treated this way for so long. She is hurt and she is angry, but it has nothing to do with punishment of any kind. She just simply has nothing left....period. 

She is literally not able at this point to just jump in and start a healthy marriage dynamic. She doesn't trust him, doesn't belive he's serious, is scared of another failed attempt at change, doesn't have positive feelings to fuel chipping in, may have lost herself in all this, etc, etc....If he would have listened to her sooner, she would have loved nothing more and would gladly have done it and she probably already did time after time when he would have promised to change earlier.....but he used her up and she's done. 

There is a tremendous difference in what it takes to make things better when it has been going on this long. If it was early in the bad stuff, I'd agree, they both can chip and and work and she would likely jump at the chance. But after 8 years there is soooooo much damage. She just does not have it in her.....she just doesn't.....he's already taken it all from her and done nothing with it. Now he needs to give and repair and show her he's serious and do the heavy lifting to repair enough that she can chip in too.

If a man had been starving and starving for years and he was malnurished and skin and bones and had no strength left, would you give him a feast and tell him ok, now you're better now you can do a hard day's labor and you're fine or would you need to give him nourishment slowly until he could regain his strength and was slowly able to contribute in a meaningful way again? I really don't know any better way to explain it.

I can tell you from my perspective, up until probably year 5, maybe even a bit after that of my husband treating me badly, I would have jumped at the chance to pitch in and both contribute to fixing, in fact I did jump in full force when he'd promise to change and I got beaten down and hurt again every time. I did everything I could think of to get him to work with me, to try to fix things myself and none of it worked. Years and years of trying. It takes a woman years and years of trying to get where she is. By the time I was done, by the time I issued my ultimatum, I was the starving man and I could simply do no more.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I was responding to Blunt's post where he said that the wife's needs were more important than the husband's sexual needs because the husband could masturbate, and thus satisfy himself. That's an offensive statement. That kind of attitude is why a great many men accept frigid wives and put themselves last in the marriage.
> 
> I do recognize that, if the OP has neglected his wife for years, then he must be the one to do the heavy lifting to repair the damage. But, that must be a temporary situation with the understanding that a healthy marriage dynamic is coming.
> 
> In cases of infidelity, retribution is rarely advised and is rarely effective. Transparency is often recommended. And it is recommended for both spouses. Even the loyal spouse should allow the disloyal spouse to examine his phone or email. Because that's what a healthy marriage entails. It would be much less helpful to advise the disloyal spouse to be transparent, but the loyal spouse should keep secrets.


I agree with your points. From a woman's perspective, when things are _bad_, most of us aren't interested in sex. When H and I were at our worst, we still had sex, but it was mainly a way to get our physical needs met since we're both HD. We still didn't have an emotional connection. If a woman is LD, however, or just so angry she can barely cope, I can't see her being willing to have sex at all, and I understand that. 

Sure, in a healthy relationship, neither partner should withhold sex but this relationship isn't healthy at the moment.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

northernlights said:


> PHTlump, you need to understand that sex isn't something a woman can just "give" a man to meet one of his needs. Sex is a giving of the self, and you can't just demand that one person give a part of themselves because you have needs. Sex, if it's not freely and willingly given, quickly becomes something very ugly. That's why the OP needs to put his need for sex on a back burner. Pushing his wife for it is the quickest way to make her feel used and end their marriage for good.


I understand that sex can be a tough need of their husbands for wives to meet. And if a couple can negotiate a deal, so that the wife, who hasn't had her needs met, can ignore her husband's needs for a few weeks, months, or years, then it might work.

But, sometimes, two wrongs don't make a right. Cruelly, sometimes the spouse who has been wronged must let go of resentments and forgive the other in order to have a better marriage in the future. I recognize that it's not easy. I just think it's best.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> But, sometimes, two wrongs don't make a right. Cruelly, sometimes the spouse who has been wronged must let go of resentments and forgive the other in order to have a better marriage in the future. I recognize that it's not easy. I just think it's best.


I agree. But it takes _time_, and this guy's marriage is at stake. Pushing his wife into sex before she's ready could be a death knell for it.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

I agree it takes time. For a long time, I still gave my husband sex when things were really bad, but after a while it got to the point where I couldn't do it without crying. I just couldn't invest in him that way anymore. It was costing me more of myself than I had already lost, so I had to stop. It wasn't about witholding or punishment, emotionally, with everything that had happened, I just couldn't do it anymore. When my husband had done enough work that I could see he was serious and I started to feel good things again, even though things weren't fixed, they were good enough to feel good about resuming a sexual relationship. It just naturally happened when the time was right. 

After reading this thread, I am so very grateful for him understanding and never, ever pushing me about sex even though I know his needs were going unmet. He showed me understanding and patience and respect. There have been times I was gung ho and he wanted to back off due to some of the things he was working through, and I put my needs on hold and waited for him, too. Maybe it wasn't fun, but the rewards for giving each other patience, understanding and respect far outweigh going without sex for a while.

If a man truly cared about his wife, I just don't understand how he could possibly demand that of her, why he would even want to do that to her. This whole issue isn't about frigid wives or punishment or withholding intentionally. A man asking/demanding this of a woman in these circumstances only sends the message that he doesn't get it and he doesn't care and he's probably not really changing. Other circumstances may be different, but in these circumstances it's just salt on a big gaping open wound.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

Just one more point - my husband later told me that when I stopped having sex with him was when he first realized there was a very big problem. It wasn't like I hadn't been comunicating it to him every way I could think of for years, but that's what finally got through to him. 

OP - what does your wife's list of "symptoms" say to you (besides you aren't getting the kind of sex you want) ?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Quote: of BLUNT
> I am a man and I can clearly see that *her needs are more important right now*. I also think that you wanting her to meet more of his sexual needs right now, such as desiring him, show that you do not have a good understanding of this situation.
> 
> Reply by PHTlump
> I think I understand the situation just as well as you do. We just differ on how best to handle it. You think that the OP should go beyond being considerate of his wife. He should go beyond being a good husband and proving to her that he will continue to consider her and meet her needs for weeks, months, and years. You want him to supplicate himself to her. *You want him to become less important than she is. You want retribution.* I just disagree that your strategy would be more effective than beginning a healthy marriage dynamic, as healthy as possible, starting today.



Do not think that I did not notice you putting words in my post that are not there. NO WHERE did I say that I wanted him to become less important than she is. I did say that *her needs are most important right* now but you change it to say that I am saying he as a person is less. That is manipulation of words on your part. 

You continue your manipulation of my posts with your statement of 
*“You want retribution”*
No where have I stated that I want retribution


The section of my post that you quoted above clearly states my point of 
*“ I can clearly see that her needs are more important right now”*

Your suggestion that the OP and his wife “… meet the others needs in a loving manner” and for them to “.have a good marriage starting today” is not reality. The reason it is not reality has seen answered by my post to you below

When you have been hurt for eight years you are not quite ready to 
*“…meet the others need in a loving manner”*


When you have been hurt for eight years you *are not quite ready to 
“…have a good marriage starting today”*


PHTlump
The OP asked for help and suggestions and I gave him my suggestion for helping him. You trying to manipulate my posts and words are not doing the OP any good at all. *How about you stop manipulating my words and address the OP? *


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Mr Blunt said:


> Do not think that I did not notice you putting words in my post that are not there. NO WHERE did I say that I wanted him to become less important than she is. I did say that *her needs are most important right* now but you change it to say that I am saying he as a person is less. That is manipulation of words on your part.


Saying that person A's needs are more important than person B's needs, as compared to saying that person A is more important than person B is a distinction without a difference.



> When you have been hurt for eight years you are not quite ready to
> *“…meet the others need in a loving manner”*
> 
> When you have been hurt for eight years you *are not quite ready to
> “…have a good marriage starting today”*


I understand how some can feel that way. And if the OP's wife is not able to get over her resentments, then she should divorce and the OP should accept it. I don't think it's helpful to advise the OP that he should accept a position of inferiority because of his past actions. Forgiveness is a much more valuable tool for repairing a relationship than resentment, bitterness, and retribution.



> PHTlump
> The OP asked for help and suggestions and I gave him my suggestion for helping him. You trying to manipulate my posts and words are not doing the OP any good at all. *How about you stop manipulating my words and address the OP? *


My posts have been for the OP's benefit. I disagree that your suggestions have been helpful to him. Telling the OP that a woman's needs are more important than a man's sexual needs (because men can masturbate), is like suggesting that a woman's need for intimate conversation can be satisfied by talking to her cat, so men shouldn't worry about meeting it. Especially if the wife has done something bad in the past.

If someone offers advice that I feel is not only unhelpful, but downright harmful and offensive, then I feel an obligation to object to the advice and offer a counter-argument.

The OP's wife is resentful toward him. Unfortunately, he can't get in his time machine and go back and undo the deeds that have made her angry. She must let go of her own anger and resentment. It's not fair and it's not just. But it's reality. She must choose to let go of the past and work toward a better future, or to divorce him, or to stay in the marriage and punish him. Right now, it appears that she's undecided.


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## Dahlia92 (Dec 31, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Saying that person A's needs are more important than person B's needs, as compared to saying that person A is more important than person B is a distinction without a difference.
> 
> 
> I understand how some can feel that way. And if the OP's wife is not able to get over her resentments, then she should divorce and the OP should accept it. I don't think it's helpful to advise the OP that he should accept a position of inferiority because of his past actions. Forgiveness is a much more valuable tool for repairing a relationship than resentment, bitterness, and retribution.
> ...


It's interesting that you don't address anything that I have said that backs up Mr. Blunts position, that you seem intent on twisitng his words and sparring with him. 

I have been in this situation and your advice would have destroyed my marriage, a marriage that was entirely salvageable with the right attitude and actions on my husband's part. I'd put money on my husband telling you he's very happy that he chose the path he chose - and just for the record, my husband is about as alpha of a man as a man gets. He wasn't cow towing to anything, he chose to do the RIGHT thing. It takes a hell of a man to admit when he's wrong and choose to do everything he can to make it right. My husband's actions earned back my RESPECT.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dahlia92 said:


> It's interesting that you don't address anything that I have said that backs up Mr. Blunts position, that you seem intent on twisitng his words and sparring with him.


I took greatest exception to Blunt's original post, where he stated that, because the OP can masturbate, his sexual needs are less important than his wife's needs. If you agree with Blunt, then I will take exception with your point of view as well.

And I haven't twisted Blunt's words. Blunt wrote those words and has never retracted them. If he was inartful and meant to communicate something other than what he wrote, then he is welcome to acknowledge that and rephrase his position. Until then, I will continue to disagree with his position and advise the OP to avoid taking a position of inferiority with respect to his wife.



> I have been in this situation and your advice would have destroyed my marriage, a marriage that was entirely salvageable with the right attitude and actions on my husband's part. I'd put money on my husband telling you he's very happy that he chose the path he chose - and just for the record, my husband is about as alpha of a man as a man gets. He wasn't cow towing to anything, he chose to do the RIGHT thing. It takes a hell of a man to admit when he's wrong and choose to do everything he can to make it right. My husband's actions earned back my RESPECT.


Your marriage is an individual thing. If your husband hurt your feelings, and you required him to treat you as his superior, until such a time as you could respect him, then good for you. I'm glad it worked out. I don't think it would work for most people.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

The OP has checked out, everyone can stop arguing amongst themselves.


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## RAN (Oct 14, 2012)

OP Watch Movie " FIRE PROOF ".


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RAN said:


> OP Watch Movie " FIRE PROOF ".


Or not.
Firebombed | Dalrock
* contains plot spoilers


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