# Need help!!! Husband's in contact with ex-girlfriend



## cvd

My husband got an email at work from an old girlfriend who he knew before me and almost married. She is single. He waited several days but eventually told me about it. I asked him to forward it to our home email where I could read it. He got very very angry and said no - that I would email her and tell her to stop. I said I would never do that. My real reason was that he's not supposed to take personal emails at work and I thought it would be better to have it on our own email. After continuing to be very angry and saying that he'd only do it this one time (???) he forwarded the email. Turns out he had responded to the email. She initiated the email with a comment about Boz Scaggs and how it reminded her of him (sexual overtone???) and then went on to ask about life and family, etc., and talked about her mom dying. He emailed back that he would have been in touch with her had he known and said "Maybe we can catch up one of these days". She emailed back that she'd like to do that and maybe she'd see him at a football game. Funny thing is that the day he was emailing her - that evening he brought up with me the possibility of going to a home football game soon. Is this coincidence??? I was not pleased by these emails...especially since the last time they met (7 years ago) I was left alone at a football game not knowing where he was for almost an hour while he talked with her. He never did bring her over to talk with me. I was so upset about this and he knows it. So for this to be brought up again as a way to "meet" is very hurtful to me. When I tried to talk with him about this and how it hurts me he got very very angry and mad at me...as if it was all my problem and I was over-reacting. In the midst of trying to talk about this he brought up if I wanted a divorce (what???). I told him that I wanted him not to have contact with her...that I didn't trust her and I feel uncomfortable about the whole thing. I said that if he had further contact with her I considered it a form of cheating and I didn't want that in our marriage. He was totally shut down, rolling his eyes and acting like I was an idiot. To cool down I took the dog for a walk (it was around 9:30 pm) and when I got back the front light was off and the house locked up. I had to ring the doorbell twice before he opened the door. I asked why he did this and he said he didn't know I had left. How could he have not known? I leashed up the dog and went for the walk right in front of him. I slept in the guest room and this morning it was the silent treatment. Before he left for work I noticed a page open on his notebook that had a list with her name, another woman's name (someone he went to college with), and another woman, etc. What does this mean? He left for work but I noticed his shaving kit is all packed up on the bathroom sink. Have I done something wrong? He's acting like I'm the one at fault here.


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## happy as a clam

Doesn't sound good at all. You have done nothing wrong. Your husband is being an a$$. Locking up the house? Giving you the silent treatment? Packing up his shaving kit? Those are all VERY passive-aggressive behaviors. The way you describe him makes him sound like a jerk.

If he is determined to cheat (whether EA or PA) there is nothing you can do except draw your line in the sand. If he crosses that line, you must be prepared to follow through. Only you can decide what you are willing to put up with.


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## MountainRunner

Old flames reestablishing contact, eh? Hmm...Not good, and I speak from experience. I've had a few old girlfriends look me up and their true motives always come out...They want to reestablish more than just to say "hi".

You have every reason to suspect something is afoot and he is trying to obfuscate by placing it on you. Don't let him get to you and you need to be firm in drawing a line in the sand as to just how much you will tolerate or you will kick him to the curb. HTH.


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## JustTired

happy as a clam said:


> Doesn't sound good at all. You have done nothing wrong. Your husband is being an a$$.
> 
> If he is determined to cheat (whether EA or PA) there is nothing you can do except draw your line in the sand. If he crosses that line, you must be prepared to follow through. Only you can decide what you are willing to put up with.


:iagree:

OP, your husband is definitely being an a$$. It's apparent that he has loose boundaries when it comes to this ex-GF. As long as he continues to leave the perpetual door open for her to contact him, you will always have this problem. He doesn't want to let her go completely.....that is VERY telling. If he stays in contact with her, he will eventually cheat on you - mark my words.

Now is the time for you to make that boundary....but remember, you MUST stick to it. If you don't hold him accountable & show him the consequence, then you become the weak one. I knew someone who had a similar issue. She saw an attorney, learned her rights, & had the attorney draw up a fair separation agreement. She then contacted a marriage counselor had 1 session individually with that counselor. This same woman then presented her husband with 2 business cards - 1 for the lawyer & 1 for the marriage counselor. She told her husband to make a choice now. I thought that was totally bad a$$ of her to do that. Guess which one her husband chose - the marriage counselor.

Be that bad a$$....don't just sit back & do nothing for fear of losing your husband. He needs a wake up call!


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## Vega

OP,

THIS is how many, many affairs begin. An old flame makes contact (to paraphrase what MountainRunner said, she is "fishing"). The spouse believes (s)he has it "under control", and doesn't see the need to do anything about it. Besides, the extra attention feels GOOD to him or her! 

Every step of the way, the spouse thinks, "I can handle it". If the old flame makes more contact, the spouse thins, "I can handle it". If the old flame becomes flirty, the spouse thinks, "I can handle it". If the old flame suggests "getting together" to "catch up", the spouse thinks, "I can handle it"! The spouse begins to think about all of the times when you 'wronged' them (such as NOW). Before they know it, they're in the midst of either an emotional affair or a physical affair...or both. Suddenly, the spouse CAN'T "handle it". 

And of course, they're BLAMING the innocent spouse for 'driving them to it'. 

The fact that your husband wasn't exactly forthcoming with EXACTLY what was happening and that he waited several days before including you...PLUS his over-the-top angry reaction is very telling. 

As others have said, you need to figure out what you're willing to tolerate/not tolerate. Even though you can NOT control your husband ("I don't want you to contact her ever again!"), you DO have control over yourself ("If you contact her again, I'm going to contact an attorney")

I love the idea of handing your husband those two business cards! 

What ever you decide to do, this needs your IMMEDIATE attention.


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## FeministInPink

Hmmm, his shaving kit is all packed up. Maybe while he's at work, you can pack him a suitcase, put it on the front porch, and lock HIM out?

I'm kidding, but maybe I'm not. 

I agree with the other posters here. This needs to get nipped in the bud right now. He's hiding things from you, he's being defensive, he's being passive-aggressive, and making it all out to be your fault.

I like the two business card thing, or tell him if he contacts her again that you're contacting an attorney. (You might want to put half the money in your own account before you do that... a man who would lock you out while you're walking the dog won't think twice about freezing all the assets/draining the accounts/canceling the credit cards.)


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## sixbravebulls

I agree that it seems shady, but I doubt he's doing anything wrong.


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## FeministInPink

sixbravebulls said:


> I agree that it seems shady, but I doubt he's doing anything wrong.


Did you miss the part about the passive aggressive behavior? Or that he hid this from his wife for several days, and then refused to show her the email? Or that he met up with this same woman at a football game several years ago, ditching his wife to do so?

Danger, Will Robertson!

ETA: No, he's probably NOT cheating on the wife. But this path will lead nowhere good, and the husband is too dense to see it.


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## hotshotdot

You are not wrong. I recently went through something similar where my hubby's ex-girlfriend messaged him on Facebook. She asked how married life was & he replied great, thinking that she'd get the message that he's not interested but she went on to start a conversation. That's how I found out, she replied when I was sitting next to him & the message popped up on his phone. Of course I asked what she was contacting him about & he told me about her message. I asked him to show me but he had deleted the conversation thinking it was over. That pissed me off because I told him deleting it is the same as hiding it & innocent people have nothing to hide. I do believe him, but it opened up a conversation about full disclosure in marriage. He has never been married before so we talked about how marriage is sacred & needs to be protected from outside influences. We also discussed how trust is built or destroyed based upon things like this. Instead of building trust with me by sharing openly things that might upset me, he was destroying it by hiding it from me. Sure I would've been upset at HER but now I was upset at HIM. He agreed completely & asked me to help him block her from contacting him again. 

That's how your hubby should have handled it. Instead he is continuing to make it worse by not understanding & not establishing healthy boundaries with his ex. If he wants to "catch up" with a female friend (ex or not) then you should be included to show her that he is a "we". Or it doesn't happen at all. Stick to your guns, or as others said, this will not end well.


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## sixbravebulls

FeministInPink said:


> Did you miss the part about the passive aggressive behavior? Or that he hid this from his wife for several days, and then refused to show her the email? Or that he met up with this same woman at a football game several years ago, ditching his wife to do so?
> 
> Danger, Will Robertson!
> 
> ETA: No, he's probably NOT cheating on the wife. But this path will lead nowhere good, and the husband is too dense to see it.


I think we are in agreement. He handled it poorly, and it's definitely not good, but it's not CHEATING. Trust me, I've been through this very same shet and I know how bad it hurts.


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## phillybeffandswiss

sixbravebulls said:


> I agree that it seems shady, but I doubt he's doing anything wrong.


He started off denying her access to the email. He started off doing something wrong.


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## sixbravebulls

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He started off denying her access to the email. He started off doing something wrong.


I guess I've never asked for my wife's email password and she's never asked for mine….though we've both snooped.


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## phillybeffandswiss

sixbravebulls said:


> though we've both snooped.


See and this is ridiuclous sounding to me. Every relationship is different, but my wife has ALWAYS had access to everything. No, it wasn't all at once, but if she needed access to something password protected, "here you go" was my answer. 

Anyway, she asked for the email and he refused. He reacted poorly which can erode trust. It brought up a painful memory from 7 years ago so, when she tried to address the issue and set a hard boundary he shutdown. 

IMO, he is being ridiculous from what we know right now.


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## jsmart

He's knows what she's up to and he's obviously on board. They have a history. Restarting a relationship with her would be like putting on an old pair of soft jeans that are comfortable. 

The disrespect that he's showing you is unacceptable. This is something that you need to draw the line in the sand over. You should have each others passwords for phone, email, and social media. If he insist on going down this path, then maybe you can do some fishing for old flames on social media. Let's see how he feels then.


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## tech-novelist

The only thing you are doing wrong is not going nuclear on him. He is being disrespectful and causing tremendous risk to your marriage.
I don't see that you have said whether you have children with him. If not, then he either straightens up right away, or you ditch him.


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## Constable Odo

Admitted, he was an ass with the locked door, and the thing 7 years ago, while inappropriate, was 7 years ago and the complete circumstances are not known (I've occasionally run into people and started talking to them, and before you know it, 30 or 45 minutes passes).

However, I suspect there is more to the story here than she's giving us in terms of her reaction.

He didn't have to even tell her this woman emailed him; the fact that he did suggests he wasn't really attempting to hide it from her. I don't know many men who are going to tell their wives an ex-gf emailed them, if they're looking to start an EA/PA with the ex. People suggesting this are way off base. She may be "fishing", but he may simply be "being polite" as many people are, especially if they didn't have a nasty breakup, why be a d1ck to her now?

I suspect the OP's reaction when he told her is why he was hesitant to forward the email. While he is not "supposed" to get email at "work", the reality is he can't prevent someone from mailing him there if she really wanted to (e.g. even if he blocked the address, she could just create a new one, over and over again for each email.)

For example, the 7 year thing clearly an example of an unresolved issue which she held "in reserve" to throw back in his face at some later, opportune time.


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## sixbravebulls

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See and this is ridiuclous sounding to me. Every relationship is different, but my wife has ALWAYS had access to everything. No, it wasn't all at once, but if she needed access to something password protected, "here you go" was my answer.
> 
> Anyway, she asked for the email and he refused. He reacted poorly which can erode trust. It brought up a painful memory from 7 years ago so, when she tried to address the issue and set a hard boundary he shutdown.
> 
> IMO, he is being ridiculous from what we know right now.


Yeah everybody's deal is different. My cell phone stays on 24 hours and she has the passcode. I'm not hiding anything. And I have her code too. But a few years ago, a friend told me, "Hey Bulls, I heard your wife is texting/talking to this other guy." So I looked in her email and KABOOM. It was true. I think it was an EA….I think. Has been brutal on my soul…. I'm just saying that this guy is not automatically a cheater. I see a lot of people jumping the gun on divorces, etc. Just being thoughtful. No intent to offend.


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## phillybeffandswiss

I agree with jumping the gun in divorce, except when it concerns infidelity and abuse. To me there is no jumping the gun in those situations. Sorry, again that's just me.

You'd be hard pressed to offend me, no worries.


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## hotshotdot

Constable Odo said:


> He didn't have to even tell her this woman emailed him; the fact that he did suggests he wasn't really attempting to hide it from her. I don't know many men who are going to tell their wives an ex-gf emailed them, if they're looking to start an EA/PA with the ex. People suggesting this are way off base. She may be "fishing", but he may simply be "being polite" as many people are, especially if they didn't have a nasty breakup, why be a d1ck to her now?
> 
> I suspect the OP's reaction when he told her is why he was hesitant to forward the email. While he is not "supposed" to get email at "work", the reality is he can't prevent someone from mailing him there if she really wanted to (e.g. even if he blocked the address, she could just create a new one, over and over again for each email.).


Agree. He probably has no intention of anything inappropriate but that's where you discuss boundaries. I believe you shouldn't invite trouble. If he wants to meet up with any single woman he should bring his wife along or another trusted friend. Meeting up with an ex with your wife along sends a good message to both the wife & the ex that there are no secrets. The wife might be uncomfortable hearing them share memories but that is his history.

If he has no ill intentions he shouldn't have a problem with it.


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## cvd

I tried talking with my husband tonight but he's still really angry with me. I remained calm the whole time...never raised my voice and tried to be reasonable. He says I emasculated him when I demanded he forward the emails from work to home. I told him I was sorry but that wasn't my intention, again reiterating that I was concerned about his having personal emails on a government server (which he's told me is not allowed). He will not give any indication that he understands why I asked this of him but keeps returning to my emasculating him. I said I had a few questions that would help me to understand things and he got all huffy and said he didn't have to answer anything but then very reluctantly did. I asked why he didn't share about the emails right away and he said he didn't want to ruin the evening because he wanted to make love. That same evening he brought up the idea of going to a home football game and I asked if it had anything to do with her email where she said maybe they could get together at a game. He said no it didn't. I also asked what she meant by saying that Boz Scaggs reminded her of him. He said he had no idea. Not once did he say anything like "I'm sorry this upset you"...or anything anywhere like an apology. Not even to locking me out of the house which he still maintains he had no idea I had left and was just locking up the house for the night...which is nuts because both the dog and I were gone for a over a half hour. I said that to me boundaries are important and I need to know what they are for him. Years ago we agreed no contact with ex's...he made that very clear when one of my ex's got in touch and I was okay with that because an ex means nothing to me. And yet now he has yet to say that he will not have further contact with this woman. He wants to send another email right away responding to her question about his mom...but when I said I was uncomfortable about further contact after that he would not agree. I'm at a loss. He says I'm being all in my head and he's fed up with it (actually he got really angry at this point). He brought up seeing a counselor which I'm really happy to do and which I'm very surprised about because in the past he's always said he would get a divorce before ever seeing a counselor. So in a way I guess this is a positive. FYI - I have no problem with him having lunch with female colleagues or having female friends. I have only gotten worried about two women...this old ex who he was very serious about and another woman who made it clear to me she was after him. I think he just wants to drop the whole thing...without any apologies, without any understanding on his part of why I might have been concerned, without any setting of boundries. Just drop it. Problem is I still feel bad. Am I nuts?


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## Constable Odo

You sound very insecure.

Unless your husband has given you a reason to think he would cheat on you (prior EA or PAs), it is completely unreasonable to get upset with him about someone emailing him at work.

Exactly how do you expect him to prevent anyone from sending him an email at work? 

What is *really* the core issue here? Why are you *really* upset?


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## FeministInPink

cvd said:


> I tried talking with my husband tonight but he's still really angry with me. I remained calm the whole time...never raised my voice and tried to be reasonable. *He says I emasculated him* when I demanded he forward the emails from work to home. I told him I was sorry but that wasn't my intention, again reiterating that I was concerned about his having personal emails on a government server (which he's told me is not allowed). He will not give any indication that he understands why I asked this of him but *keeps returning to my emasculating him*. I said I had a few questions that would help me to understand things and he got all huffy and said he didn't have to answer anything but then very reluctantly did. I asked why he didn't share about the emails right away and *he said he didn't want to ruin the evening because he wanted to make love*. That same evening he brought up the idea of going to a home football game and I asked if it had anything to do with her email where she said maybe they could get together at a game. He said no it didn't. I also asked what she meant by saying that Boz Scaggs reminded her of him. He said he had no idea. *Not once did he say anything like "I'm sorry this upset you"...or anything anywhere like an apology.* Not even to locking me out of the house which he still maintains he had no idea I had left and was just locking up the house for the night...which is nuts because both the dog and I were gone for a over a half hour. I said that to me boundaries are important and I need to know what they are for him. Years ago we agreed no contact with ex's...he made that very clear when one of my ex's got in touch and I was okay with that because an ex means nothing to me. And yet now he has yet to say that he will not have further contact with this woman. He wants to send another email right away responding to her question about his mom...but when I said I was uncomfortable about further contact after that he would not agree. I'm at a loss. *He says I'm being all in my head and he's fed up with it* (actually he got really angry at this point). He brought up seeing a counselor which I'm really happy to do and which I'm very surprised about because in the past he's always said he would get a divorce before ever seeing a counselor. So in a way I guess this is a positive. FYI - I have no problem with him having lunch with female colleagues or having female friends. I have only gotten worried about two women...this old ex who he was very serious about and another woman who made it clear to me she was after him. I think he just wants to drop the whole thing...without any apologies, without any understanding on his part of why I might have been concerned, without any setting of boundries. Just drop it. Problem is I still feel bad. Am I nuts?


You are NOT nuts. He is behaving very badly here, and he KNOWS he is behaving badly. That's why he's deflecting back on to you.

Look at the passages I bolded above. He keeps changing the subject, refusing to address the real issue. He's trying to blameshift; he's saying "this is only an issue because you're making this an issue." He's refusing to take responsibility for his own actions. He isn't angry because you're emasculating him. He's angry because he violated your previously established boundaries of "no contact with exes," and instead of turning a blind eye, you called him on it. Of course he wants you to drop the whole thing--he doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his bad behavior. He wants to rugsweep; he wants you to accept and overlook his bad behavior, so that he can keep doing it.

It's all very selfish and childish on his part.

Do the counseling, but brace yourself for more of this. Because he thinks he is right, and that a counselor will side with him and prove it to you.

Don't feel bad. If you persist in feeling bad, THEN I would say you were nuts, because you have nothing to feel bad about.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Constable Odo said:


> You sound very insecure.


 No she does not. How dare someone be upset an ex emailed their spouse.




Constable Odo said:


> Exactly how do you expect him to prevent anyone from sending him an email at work?


 She didn't say "anyone" at all. She doesn't want him in contact with his ex and one other woman. 


hotshotdot said:


> He probably has no intention of anything inappropriate but that's where you discuss boundaries.





Constable Odo said:


> What is *really* the core issue here? Why are you *really* upset?


 Her husband's hypocrisy and breaking of no contact boundaries with exs HE SET.


> *Years ago we agreed no contact with ex's...he made that very clear when one of my ex's got in touch and I was okay with that because an ex means nothing to me.* And yet now he has yet to say that he will not have further contact with this woman. He wants to send another email right away responding to her question about his mom...but when I said I was uncomfortable about further contact after that he would not agree.


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## Thor

cvd, you're not crazy!

Try to detach from the details of your disagreements to look at it dispassionately. It isn't about him feeling immasculated, it isn't about any of that. It is about his unwillingness to give up contact with this ex.

I'm going through the same thing with my W right now, and it has been a periodic problem for over 30 yrs. A lot of similar kinds of events have happened with my wife and her ex. I understand how crazy it can make one feel. On one hand the actual thing that happened is quite meaningless. In your case he got an email saying hi. But what happens then is it devolves into battle over side issues which are only a distraction from the real problem.

The real problems are that you don't trust this woman to respect your marital boundaries, you don't fully trust your husband's feelings or intentions with her (his boundaries around the marriage are weak), and you feel hurt that he isn't prioritizing your feelings over this other woman.

Those are the things to concentrate on with him. You might like the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty", which is far far more than the title suggests. It is full of excellent verbal techniques to prevent being taken off course in a discussion.

You are entitled to feel hurt about this. You are entitled to not trust the other woman and to dislike her having contact with your husband. While your husband may, and does, have a different view of the situation, he should be respecting your feelings about it.


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## cvd

To Constable ---
I may be insecure (as we all are under certain circumstances) but generally I am not. I don't have a problem with my husband having female friends and of course, I understand no one has control over who emails them! The problem with conducting personal emails at my husband's workplace is that it is government and the rules are very strict against this. You can get fired for it and people have. He has told me repeatedly I can never email him there and neither can friends. I'm surprised she emailed him there because they were together long enough for her to know that emailing him at his government job is not acceptable. And given how he's a stickler for following the rules, I'm surprised he emailed back and forth with her on the work email. This is totally not something he'd usually do. 

He said I could read the emails on his work email (he's able to do this from home) which was okay with me but still did not address the issue of them still being on his work email. My suggestion was that it'd be wiser to move them to our home email rather keep them on his work email given the rules. 

I can't begin to explain how furious he became when I suggested this. It was weird and made me feel like something more was happening here (that I still don't understand). My only intention had been to remind him about the danger of doing personal emails at his work and to get it off that system before he got in trouble. Instead he got absolutely furious with me for asking this and said I was emasculating him. He's still furious with me! 

Yes - I agree - there is something else going on here and I'm at a loss to know what it is. It's obvious he did not like the idea of the emails being on our home email. He said it was because he worried I would contact the woman and tell her to stop emailing him. I would not do this and I told him I was hurt that he thought I would do that.

It's apparent that at this time he does not want to discuss or review what our boundaries with ex's should be. He just wants me to drop the whole thing. He wants to email this woman again...and has said so. When I said that once more for closure was okay with me, he got upset and angry. I can only think it was because I was trying to set a boundary and he made a comment that was "500 words okay?" or "50?" or what and he rolled his eyes and made out like I was being stupid.

Truth is I was not upset or concerned until he became so defensive, angry and resistant. And yes...it would have been nice to have some feedback from him later that he had some idea of why I might wonder what was happening, especially after his encouragement to her to keep in touch --- and locking me out of the house! 

I think anyone might feel a little insecure after that. Like what is going on?


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## cvd

I really appreciate all the feedback. Thank you. It's helping me cope and it feels good to write things out. I slept in the guest room again last night because my husband was still so angry. He shut the door to the bedroom and I was too tired after a long day of work and trying to talk with him to confront that. He left for work early this morning without talking to me and left a note that he'd be late.


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## Constable Odo

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No she does not. How dare someone be upset an ex emailed their spouse.


He cannot control who emails him. Nor can she. Thus, it is silly to be upset over something you cannot control.

The husband mentioned the email to his wife. If he was looking to "hide" it, for a potential EA/PA, he wouldn't have mentioned it. The fact he mentioned it, when she would otherwise have no idea the email had been received, implies to me he isn't looking to cheat with this woman.

The wife's hysterical reaction to this likely makes the husband think "why the hell did I even bother to say anything?" He's likely kicking himself in the ass. Had he kept his mouth shut and not said anything at all, she would have never found out, and his life would be a heck of a lot better with less stress at this point.

We are getting a single side to this story. While the husbands' actions are inexcusable (e.g. locking her out of the house) we also don't know the "full story" here.

Frankly, the wife's (over)reaction to the point of hysteria about the entire incident makes me suspect there is another piece missing to this puzzle we're not told about. 

My opinion may change if the circumstances change, but frankly, as I see it now, her reaction to the email -- not everything else -- is out of proportion.




> She didn't say "anyone" at all. She doesn't want him in contact with his ex and one other woman.[...] Her husband's hypocrisy and breaking of no contact boundaries with exs HE SET.


And again, he cannot control who emails him. Yes, he can ask someone not to contact him again. Beyond that, there's not much he can do, except ignore the email(s) if they continue.

I expect the next time this happens he simply will not tell the wife, and he will have a lot less hassle in his life.

The wife may want to ask herself if that's the type of relationship she wishes to cultivate with her husband, where he cannot mention things which he considers trivial to her, because she'll overreact. If she wants to engender a relationship where he feels he has to keep things secret from his wife, lest she'll fly off the handle, so be it.

Not the kind of relationship I would want.


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## Constable Odo

cvd said:


> I don't have a problem with my husband having female friends and of course, I understand no one has control over who emails them! The problem with conducting personal emails at my husband's workplace is that it is government and the rules are very strict against this. You can get fired for it and people have. He has told me repeatedly I can never email him there and neither can friends.


He cannot control who sends him an email, just as I cannot control who sends me an email. All he can do is, when someone emails him at work, is to send a polite reply asking them not to do so, or email him at his home address. Or delete the email and not respond at all.

I have a government job. While where I work is less strict about receiving and sending personal emails from our work email accounts (I work in academia), there are certain types of emails I cannot receive, because it would be an ethics violation or conflict of interest (I am an elected official -- a constituent cannot send me an email at my work address because using my work address to conduct business of a political nature is verboten.) 

Yet, since people know me, and know where I work, they can easily view the employee directory and get my email address and send me email. Some have. In the circumstances where I feel the email is not appropriate, I download it into Outlook, delete it from the work server, and send them a polite reply indicating they should email me at my home address not my work address as state law prohibit the use of work resources for blah blah blah.

I doubt your husbands' employer is going to fire him for someone in the outside world sending him unsolicited emails. People get fired when they know the rules, yet violate them -- e.g. your husband using his work email for personal correspondence. For example, my employer will not fire me if people send me the type of email I indicated -- they would (or, at a minimum, I'd end up with a ethics commission violation) if I published my work email address for constituents to contact me.

There is a difference.




> He said I could read the emails on his work email (he's able to do this from home) which was okay with me but still did not address the issue of them still being on his work email.


Which again seems reasonable and relatively transparent on his part. 




> He's still furious with me!


Which makes me suspect there's more to the story than we're getting.




> He said it was because he worried I would contact the woman and tell her to stop emailing him.


I can understand that. He likely doesn't want the drama.




> It's apparent that at this time he does not want to discuss or review what our boundaries with ex's should be.


It is perfectly reasonable for you to have a discussion about boundaries of communications with exs with him. It is disrespectful to you if the boundary of no-contact is set and agreed upon and he does it anyway.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Constable Odo said:


> He cannot control who emails him. Nor can she. Thus, it is silly to be upset over something you cannot control.
> 
> The husband mentioned the email to his wife. If he was looking to "hide" it, for a potential EA/PA, he wouldn't have mentioned it. The fact he mentioned it, when she would otherwise have no idea the email had been received, implies to me he isn't looking to cheat with this woman.
> 
> The wife's hysterical reaction to this likely makes the husband think "why the hell did I even bother to say anything?" He's likely kicking himself in the ass. Had he kept his mouth shut and not said anything at all, she would have never found out, and his life would be a heck of a lot better with less stress at this point.
> 
> We are getting a single side to this story. While the husbands' actions are inexcusable (e.g. locking her out of the house) we also don't know the "full story" here.
> 
> Frankly, the wife's (over)reaction to the point of hysteria about the entire incident makes me suspect there is another piece missing to this puzzle we're not told about.
> 
> My opinion may change if the circumstances change, but frankly, as I see it now, her reaction to the email -- not everything else -- is out of proportion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, he cannot control who emails him. Yes, he can ask someone not to contact him again. Beyond that, there's not much he can do, except ignore the email(s) if they continue.
> 
> I expect the next time this happens he simply will not tell the wife, and he will have a lot less hassle in his life.
> 
> The wife may want to ask herself if that's the type of relationship she wishes to cultivate with her husband, where he cannot mention things which he considers trivial to her, because she'll overreact. If she wants to engender a relationship where he feels he has to keep things secret from his wife, lest she'll fly off the handle, so be it.


 Your straw man is interesting. Yes, he may never tell her again and that has no bearing on what occurred right now. He set the boundary, he broke it by saying he wanted to respond and then pouted. Actually, he can control who contacts him through email, but that is a thread jack. We will disagree.




> Not the kind of relationship I would want.


Irrelevant.


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## cvd

Hi Constable Odo --- 

I appreciate your comments because they're helping me see things from a different perspective. However you have some parts wrong. 

I was not upset at my husband that he got an email from his ex...not at all. I understand he has no control over who emails him. I would never be upset about that.

I admit not liking the idea she contacted him but I have no control over that and I was NOT hysterical...never was I hysterical through this whole thing. The only time I raised my voice was AFTER my husband was yelling loudly at me that he would not forward the emails to our home email. He went from zero to 100 in anger! It was then I raised my voice so I could be heard and also because he was so resistant to the idea (which was utterly bewildering to me). At this point I went from asking to a demand that he forward them. In hindsight it would have been better to keep my voice low but I have to admit that his yelling made me upset. I apologized to him for that but he won't apologize for yelling at me. 

Yes --- he could have kept the whole thing secret and he has told me that repeatedly. I do not think he would cheat physically but it is more a "double-standard" thing that has me concerned. He made it clear I'm to have no contact with ex's but now he wants to have contact with his ex. This is a changing of the rules HE set earlier and we agreed to. I think in this situation there is greater likelihood of emotional cheating. Which I've seen happen with others when emailing and then meetings start happening with no mention of having the spouse be part of it.

I must explain what he said and when. He waited a couple of days and then told me he had gotten an email from her talking about her family. He NEVER mentioned that he had replied to her emails. I was not aware of this until I read them. I read them with him standing over me...fuming and angry. 

I felt sick inside when I read them because I could see how she was being suggestive by referring to their old relationship and how they were encouraging each other to stay in touch and where they might meet. At this point I was quiet and sad...not at all hysterical...just sad.

I tried to talk with my husband at this point about how I felt and how I'd rather he not be in touch with her but he got more angry (...this is when he said he could have kept the whole thing secret...) shut down, rolled his eyes and looked at me like I was being idiotic for even wanting to talk more. This is when I decided to take a breather and go for the walk and got locked out.

Yes --- this is just my side of the story. I am trying to understand his side...which is why I have tried talking with him but am only getting an angry response as if I am asking for something totally stupid. 

I ask myself how this could have played out differently? How could he have shared this with me so that there would not have been anger? I can think of several ways. 

First off he could have told me the same day. That would have built trust. 

When I asked him to forward the email to our home email after explaining my concern over it remaining on the work email, he could have said "sure - no problem". That would have built trust. 

When I wanted to know why he was encouraging more contact with her he could have shared why instead of getting angry with me for asking. It might be hard for me to hear and I might disagree with his reasoning but talking versus shutting down, glaring, and being angry would build trust...AND it would show he values our relationship more than his friendship with his ex.

So after writing the above I am beginning to see why I felt and am still feeling things are not okay.


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## cvd

No changes - we are in a holding pattern of my husband behaving like we're past this issue because he has effectively shut down all talking about it and me still feeling awful because nothing has been resolved. I still have no idea what he's doing or going to do re: contact with this woman since he won't talk about it and won't acknowledge or agree to our prior agreement of no contact with ex's. He has yet to give any apologies for anything and says he won't because thinks he's done nothing wrong. He's shown zero understanding of why I might be upset (delay in telling me, only telling partial truth, encouraging further contact, ignoring our agreement, locking me out of the house, etc.). The only positive is he brought up counseling but he wants to choose the therapist...which is okay with me but I don't want to wait forever to deal with this since my stomach is in knots.

How have other people dealt with this? Please don't say I should more aggressively confront him because all he does is shut down, roll his eyes, and look at me like he despises me. Or he stalks out of the room. He refuses to engage in a meaningful talk.

We've been married a long time and he's done this several times before. He just waits me out until things return to "normal" and he can avoid talking about why he's done something.


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## Froggi

notIs it possible that he just wanted to catch up with her? I have two ex boyfriends on Facebook AND their wives as friends and my husband could not possibly care less. 

I am not saying he is right for being shady. But I find it odd that you cannot speak to people from your past without your spouse getting upset. 

If he is going to cheat, he will find a way. No amount of checking phones or emails or anything else will stop it.


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## cvd

Yes - he wants to catch up with her and I would normally be okay with that. In fact we both have friends of the opposite sex and that is okay. Although most of them are married. She's single and has been since she was with him.

I just don't trust her and I don't like how he behaves when he starts being in touch with her. If she was just being friendly she could have called or emailed us at home - we are listed. But instead she contacted him through work which she knows is not allowed at his workplace. She opened her email with "Boz Scaggs is playing - which of course made me think of you and thought I’d say hi". I have never known my husband to be a Boz Scaggs fan and we've been together for a long time. So this is something intimate between them and to me a rather suggestive way to start an email if it is. Seems more like an email from someone who is interested in revisiting something. 

Maybe I'm being paranoid...but my husband's desire to keep the emails on his work server and his total disregard for my feelings makes this feel so different than just an old ex getting in touch.

My husband has made it very clear he is uncomfortable with me having contact with anyone from my past. This is what makes the situation more troubling for me. He expects me not to do the very thing that he is doing and wants to keep on doing. This is the real problem. I don't like double-standards.

What is hard is having to be around this kind of thing...to see seeds of it happening. I don't think he'd cheat physically. But I think an emotional preoccupation with someone else or emotional affairs are hard too. Some of the same behaviors happen...evasiveness, half-truths, omissions. The person wants to have both worlds - the novelty of someone "new" and the security of their marriage. Very hard for the spouse! 

I know how this feels and happens because I lived through it in my first marriage. My ex-husband was completely unfaithful. When I was a divorced woman I contacted old boyfriends to see how they were doing and to see if they were available. I know how it works.

I guess this is why I am more sensitive to the whole thing and really don't want to go there again. My husband has never had anyone cheat on him or dump him (amazing huh?) but this means he really has little idea of how it feels or how it works. He left his ex's. He was pretty young when I met him (25) and had had only two really serious relationships. I was 36, divorced, with 2 kids. 

So maybe this has something to do with things.


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## Thor

cvd, you are my doppelganger! What you wrote is pretty much exactly the kind of thing I've been going through with my wife. An ex of hers whom she obviously still has an emotional attachment to, and an aggressive style of reacting to any attempt I make to talk to her about it.

Part of this is that my wife (and I believe your husband) have a completely different template of what they think is ok within a marriage. They honestly don't see anything wrong with what they do. You and I have a different set of groundrules which we think are correct within a relationship.

Here's the thing: Either system is not inherently right or wrong. But, they are not compatible. And the main barrier I see in getting resolution is that our spouses are not able or willing to see our view and feelings are legitimate. They see it as their view is right and ours is wrong.

I think you have the same approach that I do, that a loving person's first concern would be their spouse's well being. If something is making you unhappy or uncomfortable, your spouse should desire to try to remedy whatever it is. Certainly some small meaningless changes they would be happy to do. And even some small sacrifices would be made without complaint. Unless you are asking him to do something he finds morally wrong (e.g. steal) he should be willing to do it.

It doesn't sound like you are asking for much, and it doesn't sound like you frequently ask him to make sacrifices or cater to numerous frivolous issues.

But to him you are just wrong because he doesn't recognize that your feeilings and opinions are valid. He doesn't have to agree with you, but he should acknowledge your right to have these feelings and opinions.

My w's ex is known as liking to bed married women. When he approached her on facebook 4+ yrs ago it was clear to me as a man that by the words in his message was sniffing around for another taste. My wife said it was innocent. Idk which of us was right, but she never acknowledged that it was hurtful to me and caused me concern for our marriage.

I think this is the issue you are facing. Your husband isn't respecting your right to have feelings and opinions. He just bulldozes over you because he sees you as "wrong". Maybe you are factually wrong, maybe not. That is not the issue. The issue is your feelings are real to you, and those feelings need to be respected not dismissed.


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## inhope

cvd said:


> In the midst of trying to talk about this he brought up if I wanted a divorce (what???).


I think this and the fact he is so amenable to counselling having previously said he was dead against it, is telling me he thinks your marriage is in big trouble.
Divorce was at the top of his thinking during this argument, and just maybe he sees this ex as a way out, if things go belly up with you, so he is loathe to shut her down completely.
The fact she has been single since he left her, must be a bit of an ego boost for him too.

ETA:
And this is also very worrying for you.



> Before he left for work I noticed a page open on his notebook that had a list with her name, another woman's name (someone he went to college with), and another woman, etc


.


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## cvd

Yes - that's it in a nutshell, Thor. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this too. It takes the joy out of everything. I'm usually a pretty positive person who looks forward to things but this makes me feel like a boulder has fallen on my chest and I'm out of breath with sadness.

The whole thing began last Tuesday and my husband has been seething with anger ever since. On Friday I tried talking with him once again but got no where. I think I wrote about that above. Last night (Saturday) he said he wanted to talk...but only for a few minutes. He said he wanted to call a truce. I asked what that meant and he wouldn't elaborate. 

I think he wants things to return to "normal" meaning a cheerful wife who makes his lunch, cooks nice dinners and chats with him, etc. (I've been re-heating leftovers and feeling too emotionally drained to do much of anything but my job)

He went on to say he was tired of giving in to me all the time. I asked what he was referring to since I wasn't aware of that happening very often. He said he should NEVER (his emphasis) have given into me about forwarding the email. So once again I tried to tell him why I initially asked him to do it --- to get it off his government email server. He said that was a bunch of crap. I told him that was my initial reason but yes - at the point he was raging and so resistant I began to wonder what was really happening and demanded he do it. 

I asked him how he would handle things if the tables were turned. What if I were exchanging emails at work with a single ex I'd been very serious about. Would he want me to tell him about it? Would he want to see the emails? Would he want me to keep the emails on a private account not accessible to him? Would he want me to keep on emailing my ex and encouraging more contact?

He said nothing and just glared at me. I said if that was so then we need to re-negotiate the "rules" about dealing with ex's...from no contact to something else. He said "You just want to decide everything". I said "No I don't want to decide everything. We need to talk together about how we're going to deal with ex's. Maybe we don't want it to be like it was before...maybe we want to do it differently now. Maybe we want to say it's okay to have private email accounts the other spouse has no access to, maybe we want to say it's okay to be in contact with ex's and get together with them. We need to decide what we want together" He said he'd think about it.

Then he said that this talk wasn't going at all the way he wanted. I was about to ask what he had wanted when he said I should read the first four chapters of a relationship book he got. I said okay! This is the first time he has ever recommended a book to me and I'm all for anything that helps (hey - I'm a librarian so I'm into books!). For some reason that threw him and he said - no - instead I should read the letter in the back. It's Phil Donahue's book "Relationship Rescue". I haven't read the chapters yet but the letter is from Phil for women. 

I won't go into detail but Phil describes himself as a typical macho selfish male who did terrible things and treated his wife badly but she stood by him and because of that their marriage is a success. "There have been times that she had me dead to rights and showed the class and restraint to let it go. She chose not to confront and make issues out of my fallabilities, and chose instead to focus on my better qualities and the values of our family. She has loved me when I was anything but lovable and stood by me when, but for her, I would have been standing totally and at times deservedly alone. She made our marriage and me as her husband a success when it truly would had been easier not to. And she did it without my help and active participation. So can you. I have not always been a tuned-in and caring husband, but she has brought out the best in me and I am way, way better at being a partner because of it."

Okay. Well...there have been many many times I've said nothing at all about my husband's shortcomings. Highlighting a person's good qualities over their bad ones really does go a long way in building a relationship. And I do that. Actually I do it quite a bit. However there are times I have had to draw the line or say something so really difficult issues could be resolved. The quote above rings a bell because when we went through this before with this woman and another woman (a single friend who was after him) he made it clear I should not have been upset at all...no big deal. I should not have confronted him with the double-standard or asked him to stop contact. Instead I should have focused on his good qualities and stood quietly by him. 

Well, I guess I must not be a very strong person...because it is really hard to do that when your husband is focused on someone else! Actually I think I have been pretty reasonable. I just wonder how he would have handled things. All I know is that when two of my ex-boyfriends initiated contact with me years ago, he made it very clear he did NOT want me in contact with them and I was okay with that. 

When I showed interest in reading the chapters and talking about them together he balked a bit. What does that mean? Anyway I'm hopeful his gesture means he wants to work on things.


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## FeministInPink

I would be concerned that your husband is looking at this letter as a permission slip for him to behave badly all he wants, and that he simply expects you to look the other way.


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## cvd

I know...that was my take on it too. Sigh...

I think I may be over-analyzing things but will write this anyway. Please tell me if I am!

Late last night (Saturday) he announced he was going to go fishing today. No asking about my plans or what I might want to do or if I might want to come. We usually talk about our weekend plans and coordinate Sat/Sun activities, making time for both alone and together times. For example if he says he's thinking of fishing, I might give input if Saturday or Sunday is better based on if he wants to fish alone or wants company or there's other things happening that he might want to be part of or we might want to do together, etc. 

Actually come to think about it, this has been happening more lately where he just announces what he's going to do like it's a done deal. No checking in with me. And it's always late at night or at the last minute so I'm left figuring out what I'm going to do. I don't have a problem with doing things on my own but lately I find myself alone at home a lot more. 

I couldn't sleep last night because of this ongoing stress so read the paper. Noticed there was a free concert today at noon at a local winery and decided (last minute) I'd go while he was fishing. As he was leaving this morning I announced I was going to the concert...no checking in with his schedule...just going to do it. He didn't say a word but left. Usually he fishes all day so I was really surprised when he came home at noon. He said he thought I'd be gone. I asked if he wanted to come and he said he'd meet me there later. Okay! He did and it was nice.

I think I'm going to need to let him know that if he's going to be a "free agent" so can I. Two can play this game!


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## lifeistooshort

I think you should play hardball with him. Don't ask to discuss how exes are handled, just inform him that you will be catching up with a few of yours. If he throws a fit ignore him. Or you can inform that that since he really doesn't give a sh!t what you think you don't really give a sh!t what he thinks. 

When he informs you that he's going fishing respond with "whatever". Then make your own plans whenever you want and inform him you're going out

There is a dynamic here of him controlling everything and you laying down and taking it. You need to accept responsibility for allowing this to happen. Put a stop to it now..... and if the marriage ends over it that will suck but you'll be better off.

The only holding pattern you're in is the where you chase him and he acts like an entitled brat until you back down. Ignore him, do what you want, and let him see what it feels like. 

I have dealt with a hb who ignores things too. I've found this approach to be very effective. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

happy as a clam said:


> Doesn't sound good at all. You have done nothing wrong. Your husband is being an a$$. Locking up the house? Giving you the silent treatment? Packing up his shaving kit? *LEAVING OUT HIS LIST OF WOMEN for you to see?* Those are all VERY passive-aggressive behaviors. The way you describe him makes him sound like a jerk.


For future reference, if he locks you out again, and you have your wallet on you, call a cab and go to a hotel - on HIS dime.


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## turnera

cvd said:


> How have other people dealt with this? Please don't say I should more aggressively confront him because all he does is shut down, roll his eyes, and look at me like he despises me. Or he stalks out of the room. He refuses to engage in a meaningful talk.
> 
> We've been married a long time and he's done this several times before. He just waits me out until things return to "normal" and he can avoid talking about why he's done something.


Trust me, BTDT. And I've learned a lot over the years. One time I didn't come pick my H up from church fast enough so he started walking home - just to 'punish' me and to force me into a position of begging him to get in the car. Which I stupidly did. I've learned a lot since then.

What you do when someone tries to control you through passive aggressiveness is to NOT LET IT BOTHER YOU. He wants to act like a child? Let him. You don't have to participate.

You can TEACH him to treat you with respect or else not have access to you. Like I said before, if he locks you out, call a cab and go to a hotel, and let HIM pay for it. That's a consequence for acting like an ass.

Or, if you're secure enough, have fun with it, throw some humor in it. 'Ahh, did widdle boy get his feewings hurt? lol, let me know when you want to talk.' And then leave the house and go have fun with your girlfriends.

btw, the reason he's mad is because HE IS GUILTY and he's trying to take the spotlight off himself. And it seems to be working.


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## frusdil

No woman would be happy about the situation you're in OP. I sure as he!l wouldn't!!

Be honest though hon, it's nothing to do with the email being on his work server - even if he deletes it from his account, it will always be there on the server...you have to know that...c'mon. I can't imagine an email from his mum invoking this kind of reaction from you. I'd hit the roof if I were in your shoes! Especially since HE set the boundary that neither of you were to be in contact with exes.

I know that some people are ok with staying in contact with exes, but I personally don't see the point (unless there's children involved of course). Especially when it's to the exclusion of your new partner/spouse...wtf???

No, don't put up with this. Neither my husband or I would be ok with this and neither should you.


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## turnera

Now, as far as your marriage, it's fading. That's clear to see. So get the book His Needs Her Needs. He wants to read relationship books? This is the best. It explains everything - the push/pull, how to keep each other happy, etc.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Froggi said:


> I am not saying he is right for being shady. But I find it odd that you cannot speak to people from your past without your spouse getting upset.


I find it odd people keep changing the story (straw man fallacy) to fit their argument. She said no such thing remotely close to what you typed above. He said no contact with exs when the roles were reversed. Now, she is the mean person for saying "uh if I can't, you can't." Then he _mistakenly_ locked her out of the house when she pointed out his hypocrisy? LOL.

No, he got caught and is deflecting. This has absolutley nothing to do with talking to people in the past. Husband set a boundary that was cool, until he found himself in the same situation. He thought she would say "go ahead, I do not care." Instead, she said "nope she's an ex." So, he acted out because he knew she find out it was already more than one and he would get caught in a lie.


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## cvd

Thanks --- the input and advice is very much appreciated. I will get that book. I'm open to anything that will help and I'm willing to look deeply at my own stuff too. I really don't know how I could survive this crappy situation without writing things out and getting feedback. You are all a godsend.

Last night was pure hell. This never seems to end. He asked why I was still upset - as if I was nuts for being quiet. I think he thought that because he joined me at the winery earlier everything was okay now...that everything should be back to normal. I told him I was feeling withdrawn because there were still things I needed to hear from him (i.e. some kind of acknowledgement that his behavior and not just mine was making things worse, etc.) and that we needed to clarify the boundary thing - are we following our original boundaries or making new ones? I told him I couldn't just wait and wait not knowing when he'd be ready to discuss this. He's been aggressively and angrily avoiding it. Meanwhile days and days have gone by and I'm losing weight, losing sleep not knowing what he's thinking or doing. It's just not fair or loving and incredibly disrespectful to me and our marriage in my humble opinion!!! 

So I said that when I got back from my walk with the dog I wanted a date when he'd be ready to discuss boundaries. I took this approach because trying to initiate the discussion myself has failed miserably and I thought that maybe if he chose the date it would help. I got back from the walk and asked him if he had a date yet. He got real quiet and looked at me with deep disgust on his face. He said he thought I was being "absolutely asinine" about the whole thing (I decided not to respond to that). He said we should be able to respond if an ex contacts us. So I asked if he was okay if I responded if an ex contacts me. He said yes but we should talk about further contact after that. I asked does "responding" mean a return email or does it mean ongoing emails back and forth because I would not be comfortable with that. He said it meant just a return email and any further contact we should talk about first. I asked if this applies to his ex since they'd already emailed each other about getting together sometime. He got really quiet but finally said yes. I told him I was okay with these new boundaries. I thought this would make things be better but instead he looked even more disgusted like I was some kind of worm. I wish I could describe how he was looking at me and his body language. He basically stormed out of the room.

I called him back and asked why he was looking at me with such disgust. I was calm and really trying to understand. He said he couldn't believe I was putting him through all this, that I was demanding too many ultimatums and that our marriage was in really really big trouble because of how I was treating him. He felt so remote from me like he was far away..like he'd already come to some decision inside himself...like I was some kind of ugly piece of dirt that he was putting up with. 

I flipped out. I have never ever in my life flipped out like this. It came from somewhere deep inside me. It was something I can't explain. It's embarrassing to even think about. So unlike me. I wish you knew me because then you'd know how unlike me this is.

I couldn't stop screaming. It was like getting stabbed in the heart over and over again. I got my purse and my jacket and tried to leave but this thing was coming from so deep inside me that I couldn't breathe or move. My god it was awful. I was screaming how dare you, how dare you treat me this way? I remember swearing at him and calling him a ****ing idiot. I really can't remember everything I said. I totally flipped out. I told him I hated his ex and didn't want her between us.

Next thing I remember is his saying over and over he didn't mean to hurt me like this. He seemed really concerned and for the first time in all these days he was actually looking me in the eye. I felt his presence with me. I finally calmed down and could breathe again. I really thought I was going to have a heart attack or something.

I told him we were at a fork in the road --- that I really love him and want our marriage to work but he has to want it too. I told him I thought we had a golden opportunity to work on our marriage if we catch this right now and not sweep things under the rug, limping along until the next crisis when we blow up all over again because we didn't fix things. I asked what he wanted to do. He said he wanted to try fixing this ourselves rather than seeing a counselor. I brought up the idea of reading a chapter of the book he got and then making a date to talk about it each week. He agreed and brought up Thursdays as the day. I figured if he was willing to work at this then I'm okay with however we get started. Personally I think it may take more than reading books together but maybe that'll do it. 

Mainly I can't begin to tell you how healing it was to have him initiate something supportive of our relationship and to have him say it with a kind look on his face. I yearn for that kindness...maybe too much...and maybe that is something I need to work on! 

Today I'm struggling a little with how pathetic I must have looked freaking out like that. Or maybe it wasn't pathetic...maybe it was a real response to an awful situation. I don't know...I've never felt that raw inside before. But it was honest and it was the deepest part of me and I won't deny that.


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## turnera

Don't worry about it. I think your marriage NEEDED it, HE needed to see how profoundly he was affecting you. Honestly, the only time my H EVER sees what I'm going through or wants to improve is when I've blown up like that. I think he knew you weren't doing it to be a biotch but because you were feeling under attack. Most men don't want to hurt their wives, but they have conflicting feelings of wanting to stay in charge or not back down or show their pride. He needed to see you were serious. And I think reading the book will make a big difference, if only because you'll be discussing concepts you two have likely never even discussed before. If you work through that book ok, make sure you get HNHN next. It has questionnaires for each of you to fill out so you can get to know what is REALLY going on inside each other.


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## FeministInPink

turnera said:


> Don't worry about it. I think your marriage NEEDED it, HE needed to see how profoundly he was affecting you. Honestly, the only time my H EVER sees what I'm going through or wants to improve is when I've blown up like that. I think he knew you weren't doing it to be a biotch but because you were feeling under attack. Most men don't want to hurt their wives, but they have conflicting feelings of wanting to stay in charge or not back down or show their pride. He needed to see you were serious. And I think reading the book will make a big difference, if only because you'll be discussing concepts you two have likely never even discussed before. If you work through that book ok, make sure you get HNHN next. It has questionnaires for each of you to fill out so you can get to know what is REALLY going on inside each other.


:iagree:

I think he needed to see you blow up for him to see that he really has been a fvcktard about this whole thing, and that you are deadly serious, that you aren't just being "crazy."

I am very concerned about him rolling his eyes at you, looking at you in disgust. You've mentioned this repeatedly in your posts. This is a sign of contempt, which is one of the four horsemen of the marital apocalypse.

I hope you can make it through this book, and I agree that HNHN is a great follow-up. But you BOTH need to be committed to doing the work. I'm not sure that he is, or if this is a momentary concession--time will tell.


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## phillybeffandswiss

I don't want to insult your husband, but it is becoming difficult. Seriously? He is disgusted with you when he set up a date behind your back. No, call it what it is in real life. I met a woman once and my wife knew all of the details. Then she was also invited to come along. This is also someone my wife has met and this was the only time I had been around her without my wife, except for a group setting. We only talk at work and do not exchange emails or texts. I guess I am one of those that is odd, in not understanding why people don't grasp that emails and private contact can lead to trouble.

Sorry, I have become cynical in my old age. If someone fights, argues and pouts after reluctantly giving you information, then your gut reaction is correct. If this is so innocent, why all of the drama. I get being angry, but this has gone on to a level of blame shifting, where many would be screaming affair if the gender roles were reversed. 

This is coming from a poster who feels quite a few posters bring up gender too much. No, as of now I don't think he is cheating, but there is something going on for this level of crap.


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## lifeistooshort

Why on earth would you feel pathetic? Probably because you're used to rolling over and taking it from bratty. Well good for you, you stopped rolling over. Keep losing it as, needed, tell him you agree that your marriage is on big trouble because some h0 is more important, and if it's so important he's free to get the fvck out and talk to her any time he wants. 

The marriage is in trouble thing is s manipulation tactic on his part to get you to roll over. Don't bite.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

You did good! You showed him how deeply and badly he has hurt you. You walked him to the very edge of the abyss and made him look down into it, to see just where things were headed if he didn't wake up.


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## cvd

Thanks --- only felt that pathetic thing for a short while and got over it. Yesterday (Monday) he gave me a hug in the morning and acted like everything was back to normal. I went about my day....glad it was a day off from work. Did quilting with a friend who said it sounded like my husband was going through a male-menopause mid-life crisis thing (ha-ha). She knows us well and said she doubted he would physically cheat on me but she was sure there must be something going on for him to have been so defensive and weird. She then said something very supportive that made me feel good again and that was no matter what happened I was a very talented beautiful woman who would be just fine. Nice to get the ego-boost =)

My energy and sense of balance in life is coming back slowly but steadily. Made a nice dinner last night, etc. There still is a rawness inside me...a sense of unease but it comes and goes. This morning I made his lunch and he gave me a quick hug. He went to kiss me but I turned my head. I just couldn't kiss him. I'm not ready to kiss him yet. Sadly I realize I still feel distrust and disconnected from him in a way...rather numb. But I'm thinking this is to be expected (yes?). He seems to be just fine but I'm not there yet. It's only been a day since things came to a head and a week of hell before that.

But I think I'm going to concentrate on bringing joy into my life...and not dwell on this or let it suck me down. Today I'm starting in a new recorder quartet and I'm excited about that. Playing music has always been a good feeling for me!


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## Thor

If he is just fine, he is still not fully there yet. He is trying to get you to rug sweep it. Pretend the problem never happened! He was testing to see if he was out of the dog house.

Be true to yourself on this. If you're not ready to kiss or be cheerful around him, don't. He needs to feel the full weight of the true damage he has done. You should not protect him from the consequences, most especially you should not take on the burden yourself instead of him.


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## FeministInPink

Thor said:


> If he is just fine, he is still not fully there yet. He is trying to get you to rug sweep it. Pretend the problem never happened! He was testing to see if he was out of the dog house.
> 
> Be true to yourself on this. If you're not ready to kiss or be cheerful around him, don't. He needs to feel the full weight of the true damage he has done. You should not protect him from the consequences, most especially you should not take on the burden yourself instead of him.


:iagree:

He's definitely trying to rugsweep. He's thinking, "OK, wifey had her little outburst and got it all out of her system, and now we can get back to normal. where I'm a fvcktard and she just rolls over and takes it. Here, I'll give her a kiss to show her what a great guy I am. And hopefully she'll just forget about everything."


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## cvd

You guys are amazing! I really appreciate your feedback FeministInPink and Thor. I find myself smiling for the first time in many days...because you're so right and I feel like I have friends who understand. Yes --- this has a been a pattern in our marriage. We've been through this kind of scenario in the past and I hate to admit it but I let the rugsweeping happen for the sake of getting past feeling awful. Everything would return to normal for awhile and then it would happen again. 

It's interesting to me that the two women this has happened with (over and over again) are both single and have young sons who my husband felt (feels) need a good father figure. When he met me many years ago this was the case...I was a single woman with two young kids (daughter and son)...and he "saved us". He's been a good dad to my kids and is a good provider. But I think he has this savior mentality. Our kids are grown and on their own so they don't need him like they did when young. 

One of the women's sons is very young (I'll call her "SC") and other woman ("PV") who I just had an issue with has a young son in his early 20's. SC contacted my husband about 10 years ago. She was a college friend who was a close buddy. They went on dates but mostly hung out together. They went into the same fields. She shared with me right after we married that she had wanted a closer relationship with my husband (great - thanks for the info...) but he never took the bait at that time. Anyway she came back into our life as a single woman with a young son and my husband kept talking on and on about how he could help be a father figure to this kid...take him fishing, etc. It all started rather innocently. Once every couple of months she would call and they would talk on the phone. A couple of times a year she and her son would come fishing with us...although there wasn't enough room in the boat so I would stay on shore and do landscape drawing. I thought no big deal...they're old friends...kid needs a father-figure...okay. Fast forward a couple of years and SC is calling every couple of weeks and my husband takes the call in the bedroom with the door closed. I could hear him laughing and all and the calls were like for an hour. He was calling her and I felt left out. They were developing a relationship and history together and it felt awful to me. It didn't feel like just friends getting together. Fishing started happening more often. She moved closer and there were calls to go to movies, etc. Then weird things started happening like I was not told till the last minute about things so it was hard for me to go. She would sit next to him at restaurants and I'd be left sitting next to the kid. It all sort of crept up until I said to him it had to get scaled back because I thought she was too interested in him and he was getting too focused on her. 

Of course this met with the same kind of behavior I've just gone through. Total denial of anything being an issue and total disregard for my feelings or perception. I finally demanded that he stop seeing her all together. It was just too weird. He finally agreed. That was about 3 years ago. I can only assume he's not had further contact with her. Now PV comes back into the picture. And here we are again. 

Thought you might like some background for why this hurts so. It is a pattern. And with SC it took about 2 years of dealing with rugsweeping and me backing down before I stood my ground. Of course, when I did he threatened divorce and said I was being unreasonable. But I finally stood my ground. 

My problem is I really don't have a problem with him having female friends. Right now he has a couple from work and I know them and feel comfortable around them. One of them is even like these other women in that she is single with young kids but I like her and trust her. 

I'm rambling on. Got to go to recorder group and then work. But thanks again for being here and listening to me. You can't know how much it helps to get it out.


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## phillybeffandswiss

> It's interesting to me that the two women this has happened with (over and over again) are both single and have young sons who my husband felt (feels) need a good father figure. When he met me many years ago this was the case...I was a single woman with two young kids (daughter and son)...and he "saved us". He's been a good dad to my kids and is a good provider. But I think he has this savior mentality. Our kids are grown and on their own so they don't need him like they did when young.


 Ahhhh he's a white knight. These guys rarely figure it out, until it creates a problem in their marriage or they have an affair. Seriously, do not let him rugsweep this again or you may be asking advice for infidelity. 

How much did the emails contain conversations about the children?


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## FeministInPink

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Ahhhh he's a white knight. These guys rarely figure it out, until it creates a problem in their marriage or they have an affair. Seriously, do not let him rugsweep this again or you may be asking advice for infidelity.
> 
> How much did the emails contain conversations about the children?


He's a white knight with a tendency towards emotional affairs. That's what was going on with SC. He may have never slept with her, but that sounds like an emotional affair to me.


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## southern wife

"Behind most insecure women, are men that make them feel that way!" 

The OP would not feel insecure IF her husband would stand up for his marriage and politely ask the EX to not contact him. An Ex is someone from the past and generally people don't live in the past. I don't. I don't blame the OP for not wanting an ex to contact her husband. She's fishing for something, as previously noted. Her husband needs to put a stop to it and continue to live in the present and plan the future with his wife. IF HE CAN'T DO THAT, then perhaps the OP needs to think of her own future..........without him, IF she won't accept his contact/relationship with his ex(s).


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## cvd

My husband finally initiated a talk on Wednesday night. I think he finally saw that things were not magically going to "return to normal" until something changed on his part. During this whole ordeal I think I was true to my feelings and not hiding them. However, even though I felt ongoing anger I decided not to lash out at him as it would only make a bigger rift. I felt withdrawn from him and that is the place I went to inside myself. I'd already told him several times what upset me and why so now the ball was in his court to hear me or not, to respect my feelings or not, to honor our agreement or not, etc. 

I think being able to write about what was happening and getting everyone's feedback and insight really helped keep me sane through all this. Thank you!

We talked a long time Wed evening. He kept returning to a simplistic black and white version of what happened --- that all he did was share the emails and I got upset (totally ignoring the complete sequence of events and all the things that happened). But by his body language and voice I think he knew very well that version wasn't the whole truth. 

He finally apologized. I got him to this place by ceasing to tell him what really happened and instead took another approach. I decided to go along with his version and said...what if all that happened was you showed me the emails...how do YOU think I should have responded? That stumped him. He knew that anyone would have been upset, especially his wife. 

We talked about what happened. He said he balked at forwarding the emails for two reasons - he didn't like me bossing him around and he didn't want me to scare PV. I told him I rarely if ever "bossed" him but I would anytime I felt it was important enough to do so. He said he had a list of demands I've made of him. I told him show me the list...I want to see it. I only remember making demands about SC and PV in regards to no further contact. But I would be curious to see this list. I'm open to if seeing if I need to make changes!

I told him it hurt me that he thought so little of me --- that I would try to scare his ex...that I would even do something like that. It is so unlike me. I told him I could care less about his ex but I do care about him and our marriage. I told him that it hurt me deeply and made me so angry that his focus was on protecting PV rather than being open with me and sensitive to my feelings. I don't think we got to the bottom of this one...I still don't think he gets how his adamant refusal to forward the email, his protecting his ex hurt me. We've more work to do on this.

He was firm in saying that bringing up going to a Beavers game on the night he got her invitation to meet at one was just a coincidence. He said he got emails from friends talking about going to the game and that's what prompted it...not her email. He asked if I believed him. I said yes but I don't know.


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## FeministInPink

cvd, it sounds like you're finally making some progress. I hope this continues to move in the right direction for you.


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## Runs like Dog

Call up that ho and tell her what's what. Tire irons to the face are a good start.


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## NextTimeAround

Runs like Dog said:


> Call up that ho and tell her what's what. Tire irons to the face are a good start.


I don't know if you're joking or not...... but the OP might try this and see what her husband does about it.

If he does nothing, then perhaps the ex gf will move on.

If he defends the ex gf, then that might be just disgusting enough to get the OP to move on without further thought.


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## cvd

I wouldn't stoop to threatening an ex...although I might feel like it (ha-ha). But I would confront and ex that kept on trying to push into our marriage.

Where things are at now is my husband has agreed to "revised boundary rules". Those being that we will not initiate contact with ex's and if an ex contacts us we can reply but not engage in more contact without talking with the other spouse first. 

Our original agreement was no contact with ex's --- however my husband broke that agreement by responding to his ex's email and encouraging further contact. He's finally apologized to me for that. 

I've tried talking with him about how it is different when the contact is with a single ex who is obviously "fishing" --- that it would NEVER be okay with me for him to have further contact but he either can't or won't acknowledge this particular scenario. He says that as long as nothing sexual is happening then contact is okay. This is some of the stuff we need to work on. 

As long as he holds this belief I think he is ripe for an emotional affair. And I think he was already pretty close to having one with the woman I spoke of earlier (SC) who he tried to frame up as just helping out her son when in truth it was escalating contact with her. I put an end to that but it went on for years.

Personally I think he's very naive about how affairs start and what makes an affair (emotional and sexual). I was surprised to found out this weekend that he's never read a book on relationships (he's over 50). I had no idea that this was so --- no wonder he's so clueless. And he's never had anyone cheat on him nor has anyone ever left him. He really has no idea how it feels to be cheated on.

It was a gross assumption on my part that he was more informed. But now that I think about it, I met him when he was only 24 and he'd had only two serious relationships before us. I'm 11 years older, had more experience and was also in a career where I did lots of reading about relationships. I projected onto him my level of understanding about these things.

Everybody's different and every relationship is different. All I know is what I am comfortable with and how I want others to treat me and how I will treat them. Our marriage is sacred and I would do nothing to hurt my husband or our relationship. I may be old-fashioned but this is how I believe. And this is what I want my husband to believe and adhere to as well. Everyone is flattered by contact with someone from their past but we have a choice of how to respond or not. 

Sadly, this whole episode with my husband has broken something in me. He not only broke our original agreement but he was setting things up for further contact with little thought of how I might feel. He was protecting his ex at our expense by refusing to forward the emails (and still does not see why this upset me). Yes, it may have been all innocent from his perspective (no intention of having an affair) but he has shown little insight into how his actions looked...nor how they hurt me. It took me becoming totally unglued before he would finally admit that his actions hurt me.

We are still married in my heart but it has changed. Sadly, I just don't trust that he will put me first when an ex contacts him. He has shown repeatedly now that he will procrastinate in telling me, will encourage contact and then will fight tooth and nail to make any questions on my part be as if I'm in the wrong for wanting to know what is happening. 

He knew when he married me that I had suffered through a first marriage with a man that cheated and led a double life. It ruined me financially and emotionally and took me years to heal. I finally married again because my current husband was stable, kind, generous to a fault...and our values seemed to be the same.

Is this just part of a long marriage? I know I came into our relationship with past hurts...I admit to being more sensitive than perhaps a woman who has never been cheated on etc. But I have not let that sensitivity get the better of me or us...it has not come out until my husband has veered into the murky realm of contact with ex's who are a little too interested in him!


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## turnera

Don't recall if I told you, but I told my H when we married 35 years ago that if I ever found him cheating, he'd never see me again. Period. NO explanations, NO second chances. I asked him recently why he never cheated despite all the opportunities, and he brought up that one statement. He said he wasn't willing to take the chance, even if he wanted to cheat, which he didn't. But it was the no-second-chance statement that really sealed the deal. There IS no place for unconditional love in a marriage. We must continue to 'earn' each other, year after year, because we all always have the option of leaving.

You have proved you have no such rule. So he has no fear of losing you. Maybe you should consider it.


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## FeministInPink

turnera said:


> Don't recall if I told you, but I told my H when we married 35 years ago that if I ever found him cheating, he'd never see me again. Period. NO explanations, NO second chances. I asked him recently why he never cheated despite all the opportunities, and he brought up that one statement. He said he wasn't willing to take the chance, even if he wanted to cheat, which he didn't. But it was the no-second-chance statement that really sealed the deal. There IS no place for unconditional love in a marriage. We must continue to 'earn' each other, year after year, because we all always have the option of leaving.
> 
> You have proved you have no such rule. So he has no fear of losing you. Maybe you should consider it.


I told my XH the exact same thing. He still found a way to break the marriage anyway. But I think if I hadn't made that statement, I think he might have fvcked around on me. It was obvious how much he wanted to, made clear by the fact that he was skirt chasing the minute he walked out the door for our trial separation--during which we agreed to date each other, NOT people outside the relationship.

But he thought I would put up with his sh!t because we both agreed that we didn't believe in divorce. So he didn't care. He never thought I would dare leave him, no matter how awful his behavior--but he did finally push me over the brink. 

So I've changed my tune on that one. When I get married again, I'm making it clear: if you treat me bad, I'm walking out that door, because I have no fvcks to give.


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## cvd

When I remarried I told my husband (who knows very well how I was treated by my first husband) that if he cheated on me I'd kill him. I said it in jest. But it started the conversation about boundaries and it was at that time that he said he would not tolerate my being in contact with ex's and I said I would not tolerate it in him. We agreed.

Here is the difficulty. All was okay until his old college friend (SC) contacted him to get together about 7 years ago. Both he and I did not consider her an ex at that time because he hadn't slept with her. He traveled with her with friends, actually slept in the same bed together on one of them, went on some dates but according to him never slept together...and never really considered themselves boyfriend/girlfriend...more like buddies. She went into the same career as him. Anyway, she comes back into his life - full of career stories, same interests, a young son to raise, and asking for his help. I talked about this above so without going into detail again, they became close friends all over again with more and more contact.

It happened very slowly over time...so slowly I questioned my surging feelings of jealousy. And it was getting played out as "friends". Of course, I now believe it was an emotional affair or very close. I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying endearing things to her but they were sharing more and more of daily life. They were building history together again and history that centered on her son too. At that point it was too much for me and it took me two years to get him to end it.

He still is bitter over that and said so this past week in reference to my making "unreasonable demands" of him. He still takes the stance that I ruined what he was trying to do for SC's son...being a good father figure. Wow - writing this I realize there is so much work to do. He still doesn't get it.

And then now this interchange with PV who was a very serious woman in his past...someone he almost married. And what he doesn't see is how what was said in the emails between them was an ovature for more. At the very least the kind of "more" he had with SC. Which I find intolerable. He doesn't see how being in contact with PV would teeter very quickly into an emotional affair!!!

So now we are at our current "agreement". We can respond to an ex's contacting us but have to talk with spouse before further contact. Yeah - it's vague...as far as how things can really transpire. I would prefer the old agreement of no contact with spouses but I'm trying to be flexible. Why? Because I don't want to push this marriage to the brink. And honestly I don't think he does either. But even that is subject to doubt because during this episode he brought up divorce twice.

SH#T...


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## NextTimeAround

> I wouldn't stoop to threatening an ex...although I might feel like it (ha-ha). But I would confront and ex that kept on trying to push into our marriage.


Do it or don't do it. But don't put down this option. 

Many people who trample other people's boundaries are hoping that someone like you is on the other side.


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## phillybeffandswiss

cvd said:


> I wouldn't stoop to threatening an ex...although I might feel like it (ha-ha). But I would confront and ex that kept on trying to push into our marriage.
> 
> Where things are at now is my husband has agreed to "revised boundary rules". Those being that we will not initiate contact with ex's and if an ex contacts us we can reply but not engage in more contact without talking with the other spouse first.
> 
> Our original agreement was no contact with ex's --- however my husband broke that agreement by responding to his ex's email and encouraging further contact. He's finally apologized to me for that.
> 
> I've tried talking with him about how it is different when the contact is with a single ex who is obviously "fishing" --- that it would NEVER be okay with me for him to have further contact but he either can't or won't acknowledge this particular scenario. He says that as long as nothing sexual is happening then contact is okay. This is some of the stuff we need to work on.
> 
> As long as he holds this belief I think he is ripe for an emotional affair. And I think he was already pretty close to having one with the woman I spoke of earlier (SC) who he tried to frame up as just helping out her son when in truth it was escalating contact with her. I put an end to that but it went on for years.
> 
> Personally I think he's very naive about how affairs start and what makes an affair (emotional and sexual). I was surprised to found out this weekend that he's never read a book on relationships (he's over 50). I had no idea that this was so --- no wonder he's so clueless. And he's never had anyone cheat on him nor has anyone ever left him. He really has no idea how it feels to be cheated on.
> 
> It was a gross assumption on my part that he was more informed. But now that I think about it, I met him when he was only 24 and he'd had only two serious relationships before us. I'm 11 years older, had more experience and was also in a career where I did lots of reading about relationships. I projected onto him my level of understanding about these things.
> 
> Everybody's different and every relationship is different. All I know is what I am comfortable with and how I want others to treat me and how I will treat them. Our marriage is sacred and I would do nothing to hurt my husband or our relationship. I may be old-fashioned but this is how I believe. And this is what I want my husband to believe and adhere to as well. Everyone is flattered by contact with someone from their past but we have a choice of how to respond or not.
> 
> Sadly, this whole episode with my husband has broken something in me. He not only broke our original agreement but he was setting things up for further contact with little thought of how I might feel. He was protecting his ex at our expense by refusing to forward the emails (and still does not see why this upset me). Yes, it may have been all innocent from his perspective (no intention of having an affair) but he has shown little insight into how his actions looked...nor how they hurt me. It took me becoming totally unglued before he would finally admit that his actions hurt me.
> 
> We are still married in my heart but it has changed. Sadly, I just don't trust that he will put me first when an ex contacts him. He has shown repeatedly now that he will procrastinate in telling me, will encourage contact and then will fight tooth and nail to make any questions on my part be as if I'm in the wrong for wanting to know what is happening.
> 
> He knew when he married me that I had suffered through a first marriage with a man that cheated and led a double life. It ruined me financially and emotionally and took me years to heal. I finally married again because my current husband was stable, kind, generous to a fault...and our values seemed to be the same.
> 
> Is this just part of a long marriage? I know I came into our relationship with past hurts...I admit to being more sensitive than perhaps a woman who has never been cheated on etc. But I have not let that sensitivity get the better of me or us...it has not come out until my husband has veered into the murky realm of contact with ex's who are a little too interested in him!


So, he set a boundary, broke it and got you to change it by pouting. This is what people call "a foot in the door" or "opening Pandora's box."



I am all for compromise, but not with affairs of the heart concerning people outside of my marriage.


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## cvd

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, he set a boundary, broke it and got you to change it by pouting. This is what people call "a foot in the door" or "opening Pandora's box."


You are so right. The more I think about it, what does our new agreement really mean? As it is it could mean anything...an ex could initiate contact once a month and then by our new agreement it would be okay to respond. And the truth of the matter is I don't want my husband to have any further contact with this ex ever again because he already broke our original agreement with her and she is obviously fishing for him. Any contact is not good. If she initiates contact he should ignore it...otherwise she is getting confirmation that he is interested in her contacting him. This is the crux of the matter. So this Thursday I'll tell my husband this...that I've thought things over and want to return to our original agreement which is no contact with ex's...period. It's too much hassle any other way. Wish me luck!


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## turnera

You can tell him that, but you'd better be willing to back it up by saying if he crosses that boundary, you're moving out.


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## FeministInPink

Here's the thing about boundaries, at least the way that I see it: you can establish some basic boundaries up front, but you can't necessarily anticipate EVERYTHING that might happen, so when something happens down the line that makes one partner uncomfortable, those boundaries have to be re-affirmed, revised, and adjusted based on the new situation or the new circumstances.

For example, while SC wasn't an EX for your husband, his interaction with her made you uncomfortable. You would have been completely within your rights as an equal partner in this relationship to say, "I know she's not an ex, but the depth of your interaction is making me uncomfortable, so I'm going to have to establish a boundary/limit regarding your interaction with her." And your husband, as your partner, should have respected that. He SHOULD have cared more about YOU and YOUR FEELINGS than this other woman and her child. I am sympathetic to the fact the the kid maybe needs a male role model, but it didn't NEED to be your husband. It wasn't your husband's responsibility, and he shouldn't have tried to make you feel guilty because you wanted him to prioritize your relationship. You're his wife. You're supposed to be the most important person in his life; you're supposed to get top billing. And he tried to make you think that this was OK, because it didn't violate the boundaries as they were initially established. But when these boundaries were initially established, this woman wasn't present as a threat, so the boundaries didn't take her into consideration.

You H doesn't seem to understand this very important detail that boundaries are modified over time based on the needs of the relationship and the individuals within.

It's kind of like a factory and production goals. If there is a certain demand for a product, you set your production goals at a certain level so you meet demand but at the same time don't flood the market to decrease the value of your product. If demand goes up, you don't keep your quotas at the same level; you increase the quotas and hire some more people to ensure that you can meet those goals. If demand goes down, you decrease production and maybe you have some layoffs so you don't have unnecessary staff on the payroll.

You adjust and compensate based on different circumstances, new people, and varied situations. But he wants to keep the quotas exactly the same, even though the market demand has changed. If you don't change the quotas, then the factory is going to fail, either way, regardless of whether demand is up or down.


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## cvd

We had another talk last night and we're reading a relationship book together. He says he's committed to making things better. He says he's never cheated and loves me very much. I told him I want to return to our original agreement of no contact with ex's or wannabees (friends of opposite sex who had/have interest in us). It's too confusing otherwise. When we respond to contact from ex's or wannabees they think we're open to more. I told my husband that even if I trust him, I don't trust them. I made it clear that PV lost my trust when she emailed him at work (an email she thought I would not see) and by opening with a suggestive statement. I gave him a letter that made it clear where I stand (see below).

He said he doesn't like me making demands...that I should trust him enough to know he would not do anything. I told him that I will make demands if I feel it is important enough to do so. We are in a stalemate over this. He still doesn't get it that if he doesn't make things right, then I have to make a demand. He wants to read the book together and talk and then talk again about my letter. 

I asked him if he'd had any further contact with PV and he said he wasn't touching that one with a ten foot pole and clarified he'd had no contact.

Here's my letter...I've used initials for privacy...

Dear D

I’ll get straight to the point. I’m not comfortable with our new agreement that it is okay to respond to contact initiated by past lovers and wannabees. 

Bottom line is I’m not comfortable with you being friendly with women who are interested in you, especially women from your past. I’m not comfortable with you having contact with them or encouraging contact. I don’t want to go through this again.

I don’t want to be left wondering if you’re going to run into PV at a Beaver’s game, as she suggested in her recent email. I don’t want to be left wondering if she’s going to email you with a date when she’ll be at a game so it’s easier to “run into” her or have her suggest a meeting time and place. I don’t want to be left wondering if PV will send more emails to your work and you’ll respond because she initiated the email. I don’t want to be the only woman in your life who you’ve told not to email you at work. I assume you haven’t told PV to stop emailing you at work.

I don’t like the idea that you have a private email account I have no access to but where it is okay for former lovers to email you and for you to email them. It makes me wonder if you’ve ever been in contact with SC or other women friends through your work email. Have you? I’m left wondering about these things because you don’t talk to me or reassure me that you understand what I’m talking about. I appreciate how nice you’ve been lately but it doesn’t take the place of talking about things that need to be talked about. 

After much thought, I firmly believe we should not respond to contact from old lovers. It confuses things because responding tells them we are interested in more contact. Don’t be fooled --- old lovers and wannabees are not contacting us just to be friendly and say hi. They are fishing to see how available we are, to have more time together, or to rekindle some kind of relationship. Would you initiate contact with a former lover or someone you’d been interested in if she were married? I think not. You might be curious but you wouldn’t want to intrude on her married life. 

If you have any doubt about PV’s intent all you have to see is that she avoided contacting you by home phone or address (both readily available online) and instead called your office to get your private work email that only you would see and then opened her email with a suggestive comment.

Enough said. No more contact.


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## cvd

FeministInPink said:


> For example, while SC wasn't an EX for your husband, his interaction with her made you uncomfortable. You would have been completely within your rights as an equal partner in this relationship to say, "I know she's not an ex, but the depth of your interaction is making me uncomfortable, so I'm going to have to establish a boundary/limit regarding your interaction with her." And your husband, as your partner, should have respected that. He SHOULD have cared more about YOU and YOUR FEELINGS than this other woman and her child. I am sympathetic to the fact the the kid maybe needs a male role model, but it didn't NEED to be your husband. It wasn't your husband's responsibility, and he shouldn't have tried to make you feel guilty because you wanted him to prioritize your relationship. You're his wife. You're supposed to be the most important person in his life; you're supposed to get top billing. And he tried to make you think that this was OK, because it didn't violate the boundaries as they were initially established. But when these boundaries were initially established, this woman wasn't present as a threat, so the boundaries didn't take her into consideration.
> 
> You H doesn't seem to understand this very important detail that boundaries are modified over time based on the needs of the relationship and the individuals within.


You're absolutely right and I am having such a hard time getting my husband to see this! He's entrenched in this macho belief that if he isn't f--king someone then I should back off...that nothing is happening and I have no right to make "demands". He just doesn't see how his reluctance to acknowledge my discomfort causes more distress and how his desire to have more contact with these women (who obviously want something more) makes me feel threatened. I'm hoping that reading this relationship book together will get him to see how unfair he's being.


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## lifeistooshort

You're not going to get him to see anything besides your rear end walking out the door. You're bent on changing his mind and getting him to agree but that's not going happen, and you're behaving like his mother policing him. 

Decide what you'll accept, make that clear, and if he doesn't like it then leave. Or start contacting your exes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You're spinning your wheels trying to get him to 'agree' to your 'demand.' You can't - can never - control what another person wants. You can, however, let him see what will happen, what YOU will do, the very next time you find out he's been in contact, no matter WHO initiated, with an ex or wannabe.

"I love you, I want you, but I don't need you. And I will not stay married to a man who will lie to me or who will see other women behind my back - no matter WHAT the excuse or circumstance. So here's my bottom line - the next time I find out you have lied to me or have been in contact with any other women - without me being there to witness it, I will pack my stuff, move out, and divorce you. I'm not making any demands on you. I'm stating MY boundary and explaining the consequence *I* will enact for myself if you cross that boundary. You're free to choose to go ahead and lie or contact another woman. and I'm free to not accept that behavior."


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## phillybeffandswiss

This is what I meant by you opening the door. You gave an inch and now he is redefining and dictating terms. Ignore all of the other crap in this thread about catching up and friends from the past. You have said he has opposite sex friends, there are just two you want him to avoid in this marriage. If these women bother you, it should 't even be a fight. It is perfectly okay to say "NO opposite gender contact." It's your marriage, who cares what anyone thinks? Yes, your husband included. If this is where he is going to draw his line in the sand, then he doesn't grasp your importance in hierarchy of marriage. You come before anyone, but your children and same for him. If he doesn't grasp this, in any way, tell him his reluctance and actions are not conducive to staying married.


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## cvd

Help me understand. Lifeistooshort and turnera --- I read your posts and I get stuck. I really don't want to make an ultimatum prematurely. I'm not sure my husband really understands yet what I'm talking about. Yes, I could push him to the wall...but it might be too soon and he would just react to the push rather than to what is being said. Not sure if I'm making sense here. I have told him what I want, what I need and what I expect. Now the ball is in his court. 

However, I'm going to hold onto your advice. But first I'm going to see how it goes with reading the relationship book together. I'm going to see if it makes a difference...after all this is the first one he says he's ever read. I'm going to see if he initiates more talking on his own. I'm going to see if he figures out that being the macho-guy works for some things but not in this kind of situation. He's the strong, silent type, a guy's guy... a football guy. He's great at providing financially, is a great dad, and is affectionate. However he's not good at talking about deep stuff. Talking about anything emotional causes him to withdraw and get upset. 

After I got so upset several days ago, he's been trying to be more present when talking together. This is better. I have to see if it continues. 

I think he knows that I will leave if things don't change. I left my first husband. I am capable of giving an ultimatum and leaving if I have to. However at this point I admit that I really don't want to do that. Why? Because other than this issue with ex's he is someone I like and love. 

I will set the boundary...and I will tell him what I will do if it is not met. I'm just going to wait a bit on the ultimatum part.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Is your husband dumb? Is he an idiot? Is he mentally challenged?

No, I am being serious.

How can he not understand? You mutually agreed on the no ex boundary? He understands, he just wants to talk to this woman. 

Remember this?


> He knew that anyone would have been upset, especially his wife.



Yes, you love him, I get that. We see that in many many threads. The hurt spouse comes up with reason after reason why, their normally intelligent spouse loses their mind dealing with the opposite sex. There are thousands, if not millions, of people in successful marriages, who have never read a relationship book.I do think they can be helpful, but not reading one has no bearing on what he does or doesn't understand.


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## Thor

You're not making a demand, you're setting a boundary.

Here's a demand: "You can't have contact with other women"

Here's a boundary: "I will not be in a marriage with someone who has contact with exes"

You can modify those as applicable to your situation. It is common for people in an EA especially to deny any emotional component and to call the BS controlling. You aren't being controlling of him, you are being protective of your marriage with boundaries. He should welcome such things, and should be participating himself in establishing and maintaining boundaries.


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## MJJEAN

Have you explained to him how focusing on another woman and being a father figure to her son was inappropriate? How that could lead to an affair before he realized what was happening? Have you explained, step by step, how the emails look and how that could also lead to an affair before he realizes what hit him? Have you explained how you have to come first in his life, he has to prove to you that you come first, and sometimes that means sacrificing good intentions like trying to father a child that has parents who are responsible for raising it?

Have you told him that he is just plain bad at boundaries and you should be the one to set them in your marriage and he'll have to trust you to be reasonable and take his feelings into account?

Sometimes you have to draw them a diagram. Explain exactly how points A, B, C, and D connect and progress. Things we women instinctively understand, some men really don't see.


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## lifeistooshort

Your goal seems to be getting him to see things your way. He doesn't and he's not going to.....perhaps if you gave him a taste of his own medicine he might but otherwise you're a mean mommy stopping him from doing what he wants to do.

So you have to stop trying to get him to see things your way and instead make very clear what you will and won't live with. If he wants to throw a tantrum that's his problem, he sounds a little immature anyway. To be honest I don't think 24 and 35 is a great idea because of the enormous maturity difference, and this is particularly true when the guy is younger. But that's water under the bridge now and you're married.

Right now he's acting like a toddler that's pushing boundaries and every time you back up and renegotiate you lose a little more credibility. Make clear to him what you will and won't live with and if he wants to stay married that's what you require. Seriously, you said he doesn't want you talking to exes so why don't you tell him you don't want him making demands and you're going to do what the hell you want? He's behaving like someone who either doesn't really want to be married or like someone who thinks his wife will b!tch and moan but in the end won't do anything about it. So which is it?

It's not an ultimatum, it's a boundary. But you have to decide for yourself what you're willing to live with and what you're willing to do if he pushes. If in the end you're bent on holding onto him then you really have no leverage except doing unto him what he does to you. There may have to come a point where you're willing to give him up, and THAT may be what really drives things home for him. It says a lot about how he views you that these wh0res and their kids are more important; their kids are not his responsiblity. If you were that important to him he'd drop them at the slightest hint of discomfort on your part.


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## MJJEAN

When my DH claimed he didn't understand why I didn't want him being friends with a particular ex, we went round and round trying to get the other to see our point of view.

Then, DH says "I'm a grown adult! You can't tell me who I can and cannot be friends with!" And I had an AH-HA! moment.

I replied, very quietly, "You're right. I can't. But I CAN tell you what I will and will not put up with. And I can tell you that if you decide to be friends with that woman, I will see it as you being disloyal to me and I will leave you over it."

End of story. Simple. No more debate. No more trying to get him to see. Just a statement of fact about how I feel and what I'll do. Never had a problem with him talking to any ex at all after that.


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## lifeistooshort

MJJEAN said:


> When my DH claimed he didn't understand why I didn't want him being friends with a particular ex, we went round and round trying to get the other to see our point of view.
> 
> Then, DH says "I'm a grown adult! You can't tell me who I can and cannot be friends with!" And I had an AH-HA! moment.
> 
> I replied, very quietly, "You're right. I can't. But I CAN tell you what I will and will not put up with. And I can tell you that if you decide to be friends with that woman, I will see it as you being disloyal to me and I will leave you over it."
> 
> End of story. Simple. No more debate. No more trying to get him to see. Just a statement of fact about how I feel and what I'll do. Never had a problem with him talking to any ex at all after that.



And THIS is how you handle things. I had something similar with my hb, he had very poor boundaries with his ex and her family. I wasn't going to tell him who he could and couldn't see but his choices do tell me where his loyalties lie and I will make my decisions accordingly. He's been much better since then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

lifeistooshort said:


> And THIS is how you handle things. I had something similar with my hb, he had very poor boundaries with his ex and her family. I wasn't going to tell him who he could and couldn't see but his choices do tell me where his loyalties lie and I will make my decisions accordingly. He's been much better since then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some guys really don't get it.

DH figured that since he is married to me and loves me and the ex knows this, why should I have a problem? Which would be perfectly reasonable IF it wasn't for the fact that this woman tried to get him to cheat on me with her back when we began dating. 

DH figured it'd been a few years since they broke up, he and I were clearly married with a family and doing fine, they hadn't talked in a while, what's the harm? Let bygones be bygones. Lets just all be friends.

Yeah. Nope.

Back when we were first dating, a few months in, I had a Toy Poodle and he was not a fan. He started talking like maybe I should "rehome" my dog. I explained to him that my dog had been with me through thick and thin and some of the roughest times of my life for the last five years. I said that I knew my dog would be there for me and didn't yet know the same about him. I told him the dog had seniority and if he made it a choice between him and the dog, I'd be keeping my dog.

The next day he started walking my dog. Apparently, he'd vent to said dog on their daily walks and they eventually bonded.

People are a lot like dogs. When dealing with them you need to be calm and firm. You need to let them know by clear verbal communication, body language, and tone that you mean what you say and won't back down.


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## JohnA

Do you think the age difference plays a part in yout reaction. You mentioned you are 11 yrs older, he was 24 when you married, you have been married 35 yrs. So to break it down

You married narcissistic man at around 18 have a son and daughter.
You divorces H after 15yrs.
You remarried at 35 to a an 11 years younger man, he is 24.

Rounding numbers you are currently 68 and he is 57.
You at one time worked as a social worker and are currently a Librarian. He works for the a govement agency.
Did you ever have another child, with him?

My point is there might be some other issues you have only hinted at. Perhaps you are retired doing vol work while he is working full time, thus changing decades old habits. He might be mouring the lost opportunity to have his own child and seeks surrounde children. 

None of which changes the fact that you are one hundred and one percent right in speaking out. If he had said my wife and I would love to see you at the game, it would have changed the story. But if this math is right do you think it changed your approach?


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## JohnA

Dang iPod it's surrogate. I think it knows I am more of a PC guy.


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## cvd

Okay --- I'm starting to get it. Geez - it's embarrassing to realize how hard this is for me. I'm not this dense about most things. I think I need flashcards (ha-ha).


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## NextTimeAround

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is what I meant by you opening the door. You gave an inch and now he is redefining and dictating terms. Ignore all of the other crap in this thread about catching up and friends from the past. You have said he has opposite sex friends, there are just two you want him to avoid in this marriage. If these women bother you, it should 't even be a fight. It is perfectly okay to say "NO opposite gender contact." It's your marriage, who cares what anyone thinks? Yes, your husband included. *If this is where he is going to draw his line in the sand, then he doesn't grasp your importance in hierarchy of marriage*. You come before anyone, but your children and same for him. If he doesn't grasp this, in any way, tell him his reluctance and actions are not conducive to staying married.



This is useful way to look at the situation.

People who have inappropriate friendships while married talk up the fact that some friendships last longer than marriage.

-yes, that's true. But "lifelong friendships" or "family friends" or whatever do not share and intertwine their lives with their friends to the level that they do with their spouse.

They also don't put up with your distasteful family members the way your spouse will. 

They also don't share household expenses with you the way that your spouse does. I have never been able to understand how a spouse or long term partner can go out and pay for their friends and possibly anyone else around and then complain to their long term partner how they don't have any money. 

My sister experienced this. She found out that her live in boyfriend was still paying the utilities of his ex girlfriend (who used to live with him) and would then cry the blues about having "too much month at the end of his money."

the other twisted way that people can think when comparing "just friends" to a spouse / longterm partner. My future husband defended his choices by saying "I have higher standards for the one I choose to be my long-term partner." To which I responded: "so you should ensure that the reward for being chosen as the spouse is a much higher reward then for being ust a friend." 

And so it is with the twisted logic that informs people today about the value of a friend vs the value of a spouse.


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## Satya

MJJEAN said:


> When my DH claimed he didn't understand why I didn't want him being friends with a particular ex, we went round and round trying to get the other to see our point of view.
> 
> Then, DH says "I'm a grown adult! You can't tell me who I can and cannot be friends with!" And I had an AH-HA! moment.
> 
> I replied, very quietly, "You're right. I can't. But I CAN tell you what I will and will not put up with. And I can tell you that if you decide to be friends with that woman, I will see it as you being disloyal to me and I will leave you over it."
> 
> End of story. Simple. No more debate. No more trying to get him to see. Just a statement of fact about how I feel and what I'll do. Never had a problem with him talking to any ex at all after that.


I mean absolutely no offense to any man on TAM, but this is how you have to frame this stuff with most men, especially when they're younger. I call it the nerf-bat-to-the-head maneuver. You love them but they need a bit of swift firmness. Lots of men push and poke at every boundary to see if there are holes. From my pov it's just a part of their nature... Or if you subscribe to it, their biological imperative. We often look at it in the moral sense, but as a woman, if you're clear on boundaries, you are telling the man PRECISELY where you stand. Men love the logic and totality of this approach. They may not choose you, but their choice is all on them and they know it. It is when ambiguity (wishy - washiness) is introduced that they'll find those holes...


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## Bobby5000

I have a problem with the way his wife responded. No man needs to be monitored and bossed around. He got angry and she became bossier. There is no indication he had a prior affair and one suspects he left the material about the girlfriend around because he was angry. 

My view would change if he had a prior affair and needed to be monitored. But if not, men and women have a right to talk to other people and not have to report to their spouses like employees.


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## MJJEAN

Bobby, reread the OPs posts.

Her H has a history of behavior with female friends that toes and then crosses lines into clealy inappropriate territory.

And, yes, married people are certainly free to tell their spouses to MYOB. However, their spouses are also free to say that they'll be minding their own business as a single person from a new residence
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bobby5000

First, either he did or did not have an affair. If not, then he gets the benefit of the doubt and can monitor himself and does not require email monitoring. She can quietly check what he is doing. 

This type of comment is offensive "I was concerned about his having personal emails on a government server (which he's told me is not allowed). So she knows more about his work and how it should be conducted than him. I notice women can have a lot of criticism about men but don't seem to be so keen about constructive advice from us about things that are personal to them such as how they can lose weight.


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## Satya

Well, if he told her that he's not supposed to have personal emails sent to his .gov email, it's probably because he didn't want her accidentally sending him some. Likely it's in his Acceptable Use Policy for work, which he has to sign-off on as having read and agreed to its terms. You can be sure that a government job will have stricter controls in place around acceptable use due to data classification and sensitivity. So, if he's asking her not to send him emails at work, it's kind of hypocritical if he's letting this OW email him without pushing back, don't you think? 

If his wife was reminding him about the personal email rule, she's reminding him of his own work rules, which he TOLD her to respect in the first place. I don't see how that equates to her being nosy and bossy.


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## lifeistooshort

Bobby5000 said:


> First, either he did or did not have an affair. If not, then he gets the benefit of the doubt and can monitor himself and does not require email monitoring. She can quietly check what he is doing.
> 
> This type of comment is offensive "I was concerned about his having personal emails on a government server (which he's told me is not allowed). So she knows more about his work and how it should be conducted than him. I notice women can have a lot of criticism about men but don't seem to be so keen about constructive advice from us about things that are personal to them such as how they can lose weight.


Hey, if you're cool with your wife talking to exes and other men as long as she hasn't actually fvcked any of them have at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

Satya said:


> I mean absolutely no offense to any man on TAM, but this is how you have to frame this stuff with most men, especially when they're younger. I call it the nerf-bat-to-the-head maneuver. You love them but they need a bit of swift firmness. Lots of men push and poke at every boundary to see if there are holes. From my pov it's just a part of their nature... Or if you subscribe to it, their biological imperative. We often look at it in the moral sense, but as a woman, if you're clear on boundaries, you are telling the man PRECISELY where you stand. Men love the logic and totality of this approach. They may not choose you, but their choice is all on them and they know it. It is when ambiguity (wishy - washiness) is introduced that they'll find those holes...


Naw, if it is most men then it is most women as well. Some people, regardless of gender, just do not get it. 


The phrase from some women goes "OMG, you are so controlling."


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## turnera

cvd said:


> Help me understand. Lifeistooshort and turnera --- I read your posts and I get stuck. I really don't want to make an ultimatum prematurely. I'm not sure my husband really understands yet what I'm talking about. Yes, I could push him to the wall...but it might be too soon and he would just react to the push rather than to what is being said. Not sure if I'm making sense here. I have told him what I want, what I need and what I expect. Now the ball is in his court.


You're not giving an ultimatum, if you ARE willing to leave if he doesn't change. You are simply saying 'this is what I need in MY life and if you don't want to provide that, we don't belong together, and I'll wish you well in your new life.'

Trust me, he will understand if you tell him this and he then refuses to address it, and you make moves to move out.

I know many people who have divorced and gotten back together later, when they LEARNED what it takes to have a fair relationship. Sometimes you just can't learn that stuff when you're together because that 'keeping us together' thing distorts what you know and what you're willing to do. I know even more people who have separated and gotten back together on a more-fair platform.

What you are REALLY saying is that you're scared. Scared he will walk away and NOT want you back.

As long as you let that fear guide you, as long as you 'need' him instead of 'want' him, HE has all the power in your relationship. What is your integrity worth?


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## turnera

cvd said:


> I will set the boundary...and I will tell him what I will do if it is not met. I'm just going to wait a bit on the ultimatum part.


What exactly do you think the ultimatum is?

As opposed to your boundary (no exes) and your 'what you will do' - your consequence if you experience him crossing the boundary (leave him)?


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## Bobby5000

"If he told her that he's not supposed to have personal emails sent to his .gov email," that would mean he was aware of the policy and did not need her education and clarification. I do notice women are not so happy to receive such clarification about things important to them. I was away with a group and a pleasant but somewhat rotund woman asked her fiancé if she should have the seven layer cake and he said no. My gosh, you could almost hear the gasps and couldn't believe the looks the poor guy got from the other women at the table (and he was specifically asked for his opinion). They would probably be the first ones to chime in with criticism about what their husbands could do better. 

If my wife spoke or mentioned an ex, no it would probably not bother me. I suppose that is because I have not had any doubts about her fidelity or she about mine and we have a good relationship. Generally if someone says they do not trust you or believe you are incompetent that makes men angry. It is sometimes frustrating about how careful women are to make sure that casual acquaintances are not offended by one thing or another but how blunt they can be with close family members who should be treated better not worse. I was talking with a family member who was discussing something with her daughter and I asked why don't you speak nicer to her and compliment her and then if need be add constructive comments. She pondered this for a second and said, I do not need to tip-toe around my daughter and can say what I want.


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## cvd

MJJEAN said:


> Have you explained to him how focusing on another woman and being a father figure to her son was inappropriate? How that could lead to an affair before he realized what was happening? Have you explained, step by step, how the emails look and how that could also lead to an affair before he realizes what hit him? Have you explained how you have to come first in his life, he has to prove to you that you come first, and sometimes that means sacrificing good intentions like trying to father a child that has parents who are responsible for raising it?
> 
> Have you told him that he is just plain bad at boundaries and you should be the one to set them in your marriage and he'll have to trust you to be reasonable and take his feelings into account?
> 
> Sometimes you have to draw them a diagram. Explain exactly how points A, B, C, and D connect and progress. Things we women instinctively understand, some men really don't see.


Yes - I did all of that. I set things out very concisely and completely. He just shut me out and would not discuss anything, acting as if I were crazy and making HIS life hell. I eventually did the whole ultimatum thing in regards to SC (the woman with son he wanted to be a father-figure to) and he stopped having any contact with her. That was about 3 years ago. He swears he's had no contact since. But he resents not being "allowed" to be that father-figure and just told me so again during this current fiasco. I repeated what I had told him 3 years ago and that was there were plenty of men in this boys life who could perform the function...did not need to be him!


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## cvd

Here's an update of where things are at now. To answer some posts above...I was 21 when I met my first husband, 23 when I married him and 35 when I left him. I remarried at 40, although I met my second husband when I was 37 and he was 26 (sorry had the age wrong before at 24). I had two kids, boy and girl, with my first husband that my second husband helped raise starting at ages 10 and 13. So he had the opportunity to be a father-figure...and he's a good one. I'm now 64 and he's 53. He was a very "old" 26 when I met him...everyone always thinks he's at least 10 years older...and I did too when I first met him. He was and is very good with money and responsibility overall. Where he gets stuck is emotional things...I know it overwhelms him. He has gotten better over the years but when our differences become an emotional thing it has always been hard for him...he shuts down. Eventually he comes around though.

I admit that the thought of being on my own again scares me. But I've done it before and I would do it again if I need to. I've always been rather independent but the idea of losing all the we've built together causes me to get weak in the knees. And even though he's being a big jerk about this ex business he's otherwise a decent loving guy that is fun to be with. I'm pretty sure he would never cheat on me physically...it's just that he's so clueless about some emotional things that I think he gets over his head pretty quickly. What I mean is that he thinks he's being a great "friend" but the ex's think he's meaning something more. And this is part of the issue. These old ex girlfriends are still single after all these years and as they get older he's looking pretty nice...good finances, etc. They are making themselves pretty available.


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## turnera

I understand he's a good guy...except for the not being exclusive part.

But you have to make a decision - show him you're willing to share him with someone...or show him you're not.

He is then FREE to make his OWN decision - put you first and give up talking to old gfs...or lose you. Period.

And you are the only person capable of making this happen. You really do have to be willing to lose this marriage if not sharing him is paramount to you, in order to save it.


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## cvd

Yes I think you're right. I have been thinking a lot about this lately. After I got so broken down, when he said our marriage was in serious trouble...something inside me broke. At first I was unsure what that meant but now it feels like a good thing. I feel less connected in the old way and more separate. It has allowed me to reassess things from different perspectives...to really take to heart what people here have been saying. And to feel stronger inside myself. 

To answer another poster above...when I met my husband, he was the one who first said there should be no contact with ex's. This was in response to a couple of my old boyfriends contacting me. I agreed...no problem. When he met PV at a game a couple of years later, that didn't bother me per-se, it was more that he had been gone so long, had not brought her over to introduce me, and then was cold and angry when I tried to find out where he'd been. After much arguing and discussion over his response...and then my feeling that because of that I had no desire for him to have contact with her...he agreed to no contact (this is the promise he broke here recently). When he met up with SC, I was okay with that until it became very clear she was thinking of more than friendship and he wouldn't admit she was trying to be more than a friend. He again was cold, angry and totally reluctant to see what was happening. He finally agreed to no contact with her --- I would not tolerate it given how he had treated me! And, of course, here we go again with PV again...same pattern of his being cold and angry with me because it upsets me. 

I think the main difference now from before when we've gone through this is I've been unwilling to let go of what I think needs to be resolved for the sake of letting things get "back to normal"...which is what he is used to (rug sweeping?). I think he has been surprised by this...by my not letting things go. 

I finally had a good talk with him last night. I had this talk because of a note he gave me saying he felt he had done nothing wrong. I told him very calmly and concisely but with intensity that YES he had done something wrong --- he had broken his promise to me when he encouraged more contact with PV. Now she thinks he is interested in more contact. I told him I would not put up with him breaking his promises to me. I told him I would not tolerate any further contact between them ever again and I would not put up with this kind of thing. I did not need to spell it out...he knew what I meant. I told him that I left my first husband and I could leave him too. I told him I expected an apology right now...not after we read the book...but right now.

He apologized for breaking his promise and told me he will not have contact with her.

This is not done though. We are still reading the book and there is more to talk about.


----------



## turnera

Perfect.


----------



## cvd

Things are still strained but going a little better. However some things have happened during the past several weeks that may be part of the problem. They are day-to-day interactions and ways of behaving that may lead up to the difficulty in communicating when a crisis happens. I'm curious what you think.

We went on a weekend trip to his elderly folks, something we try to do once a month, and he complained bitterly about the motel bill saying we could stay at his folk's house but I demanded the motel. I do the reservations and always try to get us the most reasonable rates. I've tried telling him a million times that it doesn't work to stay at their house. The bed is too small, the bedroom is right by the loud heat pump which they have running continuously because his mom likes the house at 82 degrees. Also it puts a strain on his folks to "host" us. Weird thing is he will go on and on about the cost and his mom always slips him money for the motel (they are wealthy) so it's not like he's really having to pay it. It's just something he complains loudly about and ruins the trip for me. FYI - we did stay at his folk's house for years but I admit I finally could not do it anymore after 15 years...it was too uncomfortable to stay there.

In the past I tried talking and talking to him about it...trying to get him to see how his complaining was ruining the trip, etc. but it never worked, never. Now what I'm going to do if he starts complaining is say I'm not going. Or if we are mid-trip I'll just return home. Since this happens every time we take a trip I am thinking of front-ending it and saying "If you start complaining about the cost of this trip I just want to let you know that I'm not going"

I've also told him many times in the past that he can go alone sometimes if he wants (then he can stay at their house) but he has never ever wanted to do this. He surprised me last week by saying that he would go by himself to see them in October. 

This does spark some worry on my part as his ex-girlfriend "PV" (the one we've had the whole issue with) lives nearby his folks. If he does go by himself should I bring up what will happen if he contacts her while he's there? Or am I being paranoid? I really don't want to be weird about things.

So here's the other thing that happened on Sunday. We were talking about upcoming calendar stuff and I said I had an initial appointment for lyme disease (yeah - tests show I have lyme antibodies and my doc wants me under the care of a naturopathic doctor who specializes in lyme disease). He said in response "Can we really afford this? I've put off laser treatment for my toe fungus for five years" I said "You never told me about needing laser treatment...(he hadn't)" He ignored this and said with a roll of eyes and disgusted look "We've had to spend the money on other things like weddings. He says I demanded we spend too much money on our son's (his stepson's) wedding. I didn't demand anything - I suggested an amount based on what other people in the family were spending. We agreed on the amount. I told him this...that we agreed on the amount - it was not a demand.

Wow - see how quickly the conversation got steered away from my need to see the doctor? 

Anyway, I brought things back around by asking him if he was trying to make me feel guilty about going to the doctor? He said that the way I had talked about the treatment it sounded like it was an elective treatment like his toe fungus. Actually when I talked with him weeks earlier I did try to make things sound more positive by saying I hoped I'd be one of the lucky ones who only gets mild symptoms. But I never said it was an elective treatment. In fact I talked about possibly checking out other specialists in the state. I don't think he was listening at all.

He then said "If you're being honest about this, then go to the appointment" What??? This made me angry! I said "No, I'm being dishonest...I'm just trying to pull the wool over your eyes and trick you into letting me go to the doctor. Who are you to say when I can go to the doctor or not?" He shut down. We have good medical insurance so cost is not the issue really.

He later said he was sorry. But all of this is really wearing me down. He says he loves me and all but I begin to wonder. 

Is this a control thing? Can a person be loving but also be into double standards and controlling. That's all I can think. We all have our faults. But somehow I just feel so tired...


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## Satya

cvd said:


> Things are still strained but going a little better. However some things have happened during the past several weeks that may be part of the problem. They are day-to-day interactions and ways of behaving that may lead up to the difficulty in communicating when a crisis happens. I'm curious what you think.
> 
> We went on a weekend trip to his elderly folks, something we try to do once a month, and he complained bitterly about the motel bill saying we could stay at his folk's house but I demanded the motel. I do the reservations and always try to get us the most reasonable rates. I've tried telling him a million times that it doesn't work to stay at their house. The bed is too small, the bedroom is right by the loud heat pump which they have running continuously because his mom likes the house at 82 degrees. Also it puts a strain on his folks to "host" us. Weird thing is he will go on and on about the cost and his mom always slips him money for the motel (they are wealthy) so it's not like he's really having to pay it. It's just something he complains loudly about and ruins the trip for me. FYI - we did stay at his folk's house for years but I admit I finally could not do it anymore after 15 years...it was too uncomfortable to stay there.
> 
> In the past I tried talking and talking to him about it...trying to get him to see how his complaining was ruining the trip, etc. but it never worked, never. Now what I'm going to do if he starts complaining is say I'm not going. Or if we are mid-trip I'll just return home. Since this happens every time we take a trip I am thinking of front-ending it and saying "If you start complaining about the cost of this trip I just want to let you know that I'm not going"
> 
> I've also told him many times in the past that he can go alone sometimes if he wants (then he can stay at their house) but he has never ever wanted to do this. He surprised me last week by saying that he would go by himself to see them in October.
> 
> This does spark some worry on my part as his ex-girlfriend "PV" (the one we've had the whole issue with) lives nearby his folks. If he does go by himself should I bring up what will happen if he contacts her while he's there? Or am I being paranoid? I really don't want to be weird about things.
> 
> So here's the other thing that happened on Sunday. We were talking about upcoming calendar stuff and I said I had an initial appointment for lyme disease (yeah - tests show I have lyme antibodies and my doc wants me under the care of a naturopathic doctor who specializes in lyme disease). He said in response "Can we really afford this? I've put off laser treatment for my toe fungus for five years" I said "You never told me about needing laser treatment...(he hadn't)" He ignored this and said with a roll of eyes and disgusted look "We've had to spend the money on other things like weddings. He says I demanded we spend too much money on our son's (his stepson's) wedding. I didn't demand anything - I suggested an amount based on what other people in the family were spending. We agreed on the amount. I told him this...that we agreed on the amount - it was not a demand.
> 
> Wow - see how quickly the conversation got steered away from my need to see the doctor?
> 
> Anyway, I brought things back around by asking him if he was trying to make me feel guilty about going to the doctor? He said that the way I had talked about the treatment it sounded like it was an elective treatment like his toe fungus. Actually when I talked with him weeks earlier I did try to make things sound more positive by saying I hoped I'd be one of the lucky ones who only gets mild symptoms. But I never said it was an elective treatment. In fact I talked about possibly checking out other specialists in the state. I don't think he was listening at all.
> 
> He then said "If you're being honest about this, then go to the appointment" What??? This made me angry! I said "No, I'm being dishonest...I'm just trying to pull the wool over your eyes and trick you into letting me go to the doctor. Who are you to say when I can go to the doctor or not?" He shut down. We have good medical insurance so cost is not the issue really.
> 
> He later said he was sorry. But all of this is really wearing me down. He says he loves me and all but I begin to wonder.
> 
> Is this a control thing? Can a person be loving but also be into double standards and controlling. That's all I can think. We all have our faults. But somehow I just feel so tired...


You book a hotel room and tell him he can stay with his folks. Or, as you said, just don't go. Don't pre-empt his possible behavior, just give him fair warning that if YOU feel uncomfortable, you have every intention of finding your way back home. 

Lyme is no joke. I was diagnosed 2x years ago then again last year and I have a form of chronic, persistent Lyme. I will test reactive for who knows how long. Lyme is so odd and affects people so differently sometimes, so many regular doctors don't know it by symptoms alone. Seeing a specialist is a good measure. If untreated it goes to your heart and brain. A neighbors teen son was diagnosed years after he'd been bitten, and he has permanent neurological damage (ticks).

Your H is an insensitive arse.


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## turnera

Of course it's a control issue. Have you been reading the material?

What's the solution? 

To stop reacting.

More importantly, why are you expecting different from him when nothing has changed?

Did you really tell him that if he complains you won't go on the trip?


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## happy as a clam

Yes, I believe he is controlling. And immature. Quite frankly, it sounds exhausting to be around him.

His arguments are illogical and he brings up things that are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. I believe he does this to keep you off-balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeministInPink

Seriously, Lyme is NO JOKE. Either he is completely clueless, or a complete a$$.

What does him not getting laser treatment on his toe have to do with your Lyme? 

Absolutely nothing.

What does your son's wedding have to do with your Lyme?

Absolutely nothing.

Your H doesn't seem to care about your health, happiness, or comfort.


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## cvd

turnera said:


> Of course it's a control issue. Have you been reading the material?
> 
> What's the solution?
> 
> To stop reacting.
> 
> More importantly, why are you expecting different from him when nothing has changed?
> 
> Did you really tell him that if he complains you won't go on the trip?


How do I stop reacting? Do I say nothing? I thought of that but not sure how to go about it since saying nothing at all then would lead him to think that what he said was okay. Also it is hard not to react when it hurts!

I was thinking of telling him next time we are planning to go on a trip. But I've already told him before that I'm tired of hearing about the cost and his blaming me for it. So maybe next time I just won't go if he starts talking about it...no need to say that's what I'm going to do. Once or twice in the past I said I wouldn't go but then I let him badger me into going with excuses that his folks would miss me and the least I can do is visit them since they are so old, etc. etc. 

A big part of this whole problem is me. I've let this pattern continue and not been strong enough to stand firm and as time has gone on he has gotten more insensitive.

I can't begin to tell you how it helps to write here and get feedback. Many of you are very wise in your advice and I appreciate all the ideas on ways to approach these issues. Thanks!


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## turnera

cvd said:


> How do I stop reacting? Do I say nothing? I thought of that but not sure how to go about it since saying nothing at all then would lead him to think that what he said was okay. Also it is hard not to react when it hurts!


Well, I don't know what to tell you, cvd. Except that maybe this is where you man up, the one point in your life where you find your big girl britches and DO WHAT IS HARD.

What you are doing is not working. He will not change. YOU must change. You must stop acting out of emotion and do what a grownup does - be the strong person, do what's right instead of what your heart tells you to do.

I know it hurts to hear this, but you're just following the path of millions of other women who are treated like trash and basically ask for more. Why do I say you ask for more? Because you don't CHANGE ANYTHING. You just continue to complain about how he doesn't love you, or how he hurts you, or how you can't understand why he does what he does. When you've received post after post telling you that he will NOT change, and the only way things will improve is when YOU change.

Only you can decide when you've had enough. We can't do it for you. We can't make you man up and do what's hard, what's scary, what's outside your comfort zone (even though you know you need to).


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## Another Planet

Minus the cheating actions...he locked you out of YOUR house. That's a very abrupt action, its a sign. Divorce


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## cvd

So I demanded we go to a counselor now...reading a book is not enough. I told him if he treats me disrespectfully again I will leave and he will not see me again. He said "Don't you want to help make me better? Because if you don't then we should get divorced."

His statement told me a lot. As all of you have said I can do nothing to make him better. I can only take care of myself. I have to admit that emotionally I was too tired at that point to even try to explain to him why I can't help make him better. And I had to admit to myself that all these years I have been trying to do doing just that...it has been my part of the dysfunctional relationship. Now I am trying to stop my behavior and it has changed our dynamic.

I called a well respected couple's counselor but she can't see us until the first of November. So we are in a holding pattern. He has been really nice the past several days....flowers, hugs, etc. But for me the ups and downs have been so frequent lately that I am skittish - waiting for the next outburst to happen.


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## turnera

cvd said:


> So we are in a holding pattern. He has been really nice the past several days....flowers, hugs, etc.


Of course he has. He's skating around the Cycle of Abuse, like ALL abusers/controllers do. Upset her? Kiss her ass so she forgets why she's mad at me. Not upset any more? Ramp it back up so she's scared of making ME mad. 

Refuse the flowers. Stay mad. Reject the hugs. SHOW him that you deserve respect.


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## CuddleBug

Hmmmmm, sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

He's with you and shouldn't care less about his last woman and that means no contact.

Over the 16 years being married to Mrs.CuddleBug, I have never had an interest or desire to find out were my ex gf is and what she is doing at present.

I barely even remember what she looked like.

Only reason you keep in touch with an ex is because the spark is still there and could turn into a small flame and then a fire again.

Playing with fire you get burned.


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## cvd

That's the way I feel about ex's...I don't think about them. 

However, I do know what it is like to think about ex's...to want to see them and to be in contact with them --- the excitement and anticipation...the wondering and daydreaming about them. That happened in my first marriage. My then-husband and I were almost separated, he was having affairs - leading a double life, and I was horribly lonely.

This is why it hurts even more to realize my current husband felt compelled to be in contact with and encourage more contact with his ex-fiance. I have done nothing but treat him well and be faithful.


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## 3Xnocharm

cvd said:


> So I demanded we go to a counselor now...reading a book is not enough. I told him if he treats me disrespectfully again I will leave and he will not see me again. He said "Don't you want to help make me better? Because if you don't then we should get divorced."
> 
> His statement told me a lot. As all of you have said I can do nothing to make him better. I can only take care of myself. I have to admit that emotionally I was too tired at that point to even try to explain to him why I can't help make him better. And I had to admit to myself that all these years I have been trying to do doing just that...it has been my part of the dysfunctional relationship. Now I am trying to stop my behavior and it has changed our dynamic.
> 
> I called a well respected couple's counselor but she can't see us until the first of November. So we are in a holding pattern. He has been really nice the past several days....flowers, hugs, etc. But for me the ups and downs have been so frequent lately that I am skittish - waiting for the next outburst to happen.


I agree, turn down all the flowers and rebuff the hugs. He is only kissing your ass until he thinks he has you convinced to stay. I think you are wasting your time waiting for counseling, he isn't going to change. This is who he is.


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## jdawg2015

CuddleBug said:


> Hmmmmm, sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> He's with you and shouldn't care less about his last woman and that means no contact.
> 
> Over the 16 years being married to Mrs.CuddleBug, I have never had an interest or desire to find out were my ex gf is and what she is doing at present.
> 
> I barely even remember what she looked like.
> 
> Only reason you keep in touch with an ex is because the spark is still there and could turn into a small flame and then a fire again.
> 
> Playing with fire you get burned.


Absolutely correct. Zero reason to contact an ex minus kids or very unique circumstances.

In a committed relationship or marriage and contacted exes is about the most stupid thing people get themselves into.


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## jdawg2015

cvd said:


> That's the way I feel about ex's...I don't think about them.
> 
> However, I do know what it is like to think about ex's...to want to see them and to be in contact with them --- the excitement and anticipation...the wondering and daydreaming about them. That happened in my first marriage. My then-husband and I were almost separated, he was having affairs - leading a double life, and I was horribly lonely.
> 
> This is why it hurts even more to realize my current husband felt compelled to be in contact with and encourage more contact with his ex-fiance. I have done nothing but treat him well and be faithful.


This is a normal boundary. DO NOT let your H convince you that you're being insecure etc. It's your value and you two even agreed on it in the past.

Look at how it is shaping you up emotionally? I know you don't want life to stay like this.

You need to tell him that you don't think he's taking this seriously and that if he has any contact with any exes it's not something you will tolerate and you will leave the marriage. Be frank, firm, and unrelenting.

I'm going to give you a bit of advice that is unsolicited. I see many couples with large age differences. Anecdotally I've determined that more than a 7-8 year age gap is ripe for issues. 11 years is a big gap. I wonder if your H is seeing you as "aging". Not trying to poke but wonder if that's what he's doing.


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## cvd

Yes - I think the age gap may be an issue. I think I shared before that his best friend recently got divorced and is dating women in their 40's. In fact, his friend visited us this weekend with his current girlfriend who is 5 years older than my daughter! 

The two ex's in his past that I am having problem with are close to his age and one is younger. There's not much I can do about the aging issue. I do look very young for my age and I'm told that all the time. 

I have (finally) been firm about what I won't tolerate and told him I will leave if he has contact with ex's and also if he treats me disrespectfully in general. I think he knows I am serious and that is why I'm getting the flowers and nice behavior.

I am responding with coolness to the hugs, flowers, etc. Not rebuffing but neither accepting. I know what the cycle of abuse is. My lack of response is throwing him off.

He has tried some little negative jabs but they aren't having any effect. And because I am more removed I can see them for what they are and not respond. They aren't quite disrespectful but just the kinds of things that if I responded would grow into something more.


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## mmcm3333

Reconnecting with ex's is not okay in any serious relationship, especially marriage. That includes FB, emails, and texts. It serves no good purpose. He should have ignored it. Worst case, he should have written back and told her not to contact him again (he didn't have to justify it, but if he did, he should have said it was because he was married and contact was inappropriate). Most people respond when they're feeling lousy in their situation and need to feel something they're not getting in the present relationship. So, what's not good in your marriage?

Because of his angry reaction, my first guess is he's feeling insecure. He suddenly has another woman interested in him and feeling wanted again. The anger he felt about you wanting to see the email, followed by locking you out of the house (which was on purpose) just shows he's proving to you that he's not getting what he wants at home and is doing some passive aggressive display to get you to notice.

Men are generally pretty simple. If they're not the 'man' or 'hero' at home, they're vulnerable to other interests. A well cared-for man will not be interested in fantasy (and even if it happens, they don't let it get to the point where they get angry with their spouse, lock them out, or let them stay in the guest room). The page left out was on purpose- to hurt you and remind you he has options. Again, passive aggressive behavior to show you something is wrong or lacking. He's being very obvious.

Yes, in some cases, men will cause hurt just because they're selfish. But look back on your marriage. Has he always been a jerk towards you? Or has he invested time and emotion in to the relationship (genuinely) and really loves you? Is this new and accompanied by problems in the marriage? 

You can call him out on this inappropriate behavior, but it might not work. He might continue to defend it or he might enjoy it because you're giving into his childish behavior to get you to notice something is wrong. Frankly, I'd have a real discussion about the marriage. I wouldn't react to the games, I'd just talk about what's going on.

If there's nothing, then start thinking about leaving. If you're a good wife, working with him, and he's still looking elsewhere, I'd move on. You don't have children, so this isn't too hard. I'm not okay with married people playing games with each other- it typically backfires and it's hard to recover. If he didn't express his needs and resorted to pitting you against exs, I'm not okay with that. That's very juvenile behavior and not something I would take lightly.


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## BrokenLady

I've only just finished reading through your thread. For a start your medical condition can present like Fibromyalgia (chronic pain & fatigue) PLEASE get it taken care of. You don't want to get stuck with that!

Does your husband always react with anger & contempt when he's wrong, embarrassed? Mine does! I'm just recovering from a brutal EA he had with his ex. It took 4 mails for him to ask her to set-up a secret account so I wouldn't find out & give him a hard time. That disrespect alone made Mr Angry start raging...even though I knew nothing! I've always known that he doesn't handle being wrong very well. It took me months to discover why I was being treated so badly. He was embarrassed & as time progressed I was the bad guy for standing in the way of his fantasy. Be very careful of the whole mid life crisis stuff. It can push a man to 'accidentally' cross lines they wouldn't usually consider!

Hugs!


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## cvd

He initiated a talk yesterday and apologized in a more serious way. He actually kept eye contact with me (he usually won't look at me when we're talking...looks anywhere but at me...) and that felt good. He said he's been unsure if I want to be married because I've been so "removed" lately. I told him yes I've been shut-down because he hurt me and hadn't shown any understanding of why.

Then he said he was okay with counseling...although he rolled his eyes as he said it. I called him on that saying it was disrespectful. He said he's trying to work on behaving better and that he wants to be married. I have to say it's exhausting to keep on top of the disrespectful remarks and body language. 

As for keeping him happy so he doesn't wander...who knows? I think I'm a pretty good wife but of course there are things I could do better. I'm sure we'll explore this in counseling. 

What he's not getting at home and something that upsets him is that I don't always agree with him on everything...I do on lots of things - just not everything. This makes him angry...he keeps a tally of these things and brings them up when he is upset. 

I know he wants to be the "man" and the "hero" at home. I don't have a problem with that -- I understand many men want that feeling. It is revealed in who he chose to be in contact with...single women who "need" him and who have sons they'd love him to mentor. Maybe in counseling we can explore ways for him to have that dynamic that don't threaten our marriage or devalue me!

As far as his being insecure...yes I think he is. But I'm not sure what I can do about that. I am not a *****y wife, nor do I nag like I see other women do. I get upset if he is being disrespectful to me.

Yes - my husband reacts with anger when he is wrong. This is a reason why we are in this mess. I won't put up with it anymore. All I know is this cycle has to stop and we need a counselor to help.


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## turnera

You can address the anger immediately. "Each time you show anger at me, I will get up and walk out of the room. If you don't learn to control it, you will end up spending every waking minute alone. It's up to you."

And then if he then shows anger, LEAVE THE ROOM. He'll KNOW why.

Half of this is on you.


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## FeministInPink

turnera said:


> You can address the anger immediately. "Each time you show anger at me, I will get up and walk out of the room. If you don't learn to control it, you will end up spending every waking minute alone. It's up to you."
> 
> And then if he then shows anger, LEAVE THE ROOM. He'll KNOW why.
> 
> Half of this is on you.


I think this is a good plan. He may not even realize when he's doing it, or how often. This way, there is an actual consequence to his actions, one which will force him to examine his own behavior.


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## cvd

Yes - I will do this. It's part of the whole way I'm doing things differently now...or at least trying to. And I think it is having an effect. As I've started doing this I've become more aware of how often this kind of thing is happening (anger, disrespect, etc.)...almost every day. 

The thing I didn't do yesterday in response to the eye-rolling was to set a consequence...as you said "If you roll your eyes again when I'm talking to you, I will leave the room and if you don't learn to control it you will spend every waking moment alone. It's up to you." I will tell him. This has a lot more juice than just telling him he's disrespectful for the millionth time. 

Wow - can't believe I didn't say this when it happened because I'm really trying to remember to do this! 

Does anyone else have as hard a time as I am remembering to set consequences when they are not treated well? I'm not stupid...actually rather well educated, good job, looked up to in my field, etc. But with my husband it's like I'm some kind of relationship doormat. I understand this stuff intellectually but applying it is a real uphill battle.

I admit I come from a pretty dysfunctional childhood and first marriage with parents who were alcoholics and abusive and an ex-husband who was a substance abuser and abusive. I've done a lots of work to get past that stuff and don't want to be defined by it or use it as an excuse for the way things are...but it is part of my past. What is hard to admit is that I have continued to allow behavior that echoes the same patterns or cycles of abuse. 

My husband is not an alcoholic or wife beater or anything that awful...so in my life that is an improvement. And he is a good provider and father...but I think he craves being in charge, a savior, and needed. I've fed into that.

We'll see what comes up in counseling. And I will try to remember to set consequences when stuff happens. I need flashcards. Seriously!


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## turnera

A good book to read on why we do that stuff is Emotional Alchemy. It seems like a boring read, but it's actually fascinating, very logical, and very helpful.

And my H and I had the same conversation recently, when I was well and truly done. He 'says' he doesn't realize when he's being disrespectful (sighs, pouts, roll the eyes, arm crossing, on and on) and actually asked me to let him know when he's doing it. So I agreed to make a gesture or something every time. Like maybe a 'stop sign' with your hand. Or count how many times it's happened today on your fingers (one finger for first time, 2 for second time, etc.). He's been on extra good behavior since then, so I haven't had to use it.


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## SurpriseMyself

Why are there so many insecure, passive aggressive men out there? The OP's husband sounds so much like mine! And turnera's. And I've read of more. It's the NMMNG thing, at least part of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cvd

What is "NMMNG"?


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## turnera

No More Mr Nice Guy.
The Book


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## phillybeffandswiss

No More mister nice Guy is a book. No, it doesn't teach men how to be passive aggressive.


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## FeministInPink

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No More mister nice Guy is a book. No, it doesn't teach men how to be passive aggressive.


 @cvd--it teaches them how to NOT be passive aggressive.


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## Melisareys

I'm so blessed to have known johnsmoran he is god sent.


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## Coachme

Hi there, it sounds like a tricky situation. I admire your commitment to your relationship and your ability to protect your husband from possible infidelities. This is a real strength on your behalf, some men need that protection from their wives and that's not a bad thing.
I think it is commendable that your husband spoke to you about the email and did send it to you to read, even if it took some time and he had already replied. It means you have a good relationship between you, you have trust and good intentions. Part of him knows it’s wrong and knows he needs protection. 
Instead of focussing on what you don’t want to see him doing, focus on what you do want to see him doing. That is, you want him to focus on you and what you have. I think it’s important to see what needs this situation is giving him. For example, I would say that this is giving him a lot of variety, uncertainty and excitement. Perhaps these feelings are missing in your marriage at the moment. There must be ways you can bring these things to your marriage, to shift his focus onto you, in a fun and positive way. It is difficult to brainstorm without knowing the two of you better, but you could surprise him with something you haven’t done in a while but something he enjoys - an event, a holiday, a movie. Think of a list of ten surprising things you could do in a fun or sexy way and do one each day at different times for two weeks. Have fun with it!


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## cvd

We've had two counseling session so far. The first one he was 20 minutes late to...not good...but he came. At that one I shared what happened and why I was upset. He said I wasn't remembering things correctly but wouldn't say what was different. He switched topics and said I was too demanding. When asked how I was demanding he again switched topics. The therapist we're seeing is very good...she's a therapist that therapists go to so I know that nothing is going to get past her. The eye-rolling was addressed (he did it in the session). She asked him if he knew what that communicated and he said he's always done it (she asked if since he was a baby - ha-ha...). She asked him if he knew what he was feeling when he did it and he rolled his eyes (!)...she immediately told him that eye-rolling conveys contempt...that the person who it is directed to feels the contempt. She asked if that's what he was trying to convey. He said no...that he was just tired of hearing the same stuff over and over. She said "And so you convey your "contempt" by rolling your eyes instead of talking about things - yes?" He said I guess so. That was the end of session one. Session Two she tried to find out what he is really feeling for the other women he has been in touch with (S and P). He wouldn't say and kept changing the subject. Finally she asked me what I wanted and I said I wanted him to email P and tell her not to contact him any more. She said to my husband - "Your wife is saying she wants you to email P and tell her not to contact you any more because you are happily married --- correct?" He was silent. She said to me..."You tell him what you want". So I looked at him and told him "I want you to email P and tell her not to contact you because you are a happily married man" He said okay. 

He didn't balk or fuss or get angry...he just said okay. It was so different than how he usually behaves that it actually worries me a little bit. We'll see if he does it or not.


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## lifeistooshort

His reaction is one of someone who does not want to do what you need.....deep down he thinks there's nothing wrong with it and will agree simply to shut you up. I think such a person is at high risk for continuing the behavior when he thinks you're not looking. You shouldn't have to push this hard with someone who understands boundaries and wants to be committed. Think about it.....these other women mean so much to him that he's willing to upset you over it and you literally have to drag him kicking and screaming away from them. Is that really how you want to live?

I wonder if this isn't a situation where some empathy would go a long way. Have you told him that since he sees nothing wrong with communicating with other women you'll take that to mean you can strike up relationships with other men?

That will tell you a lot about how he really views this. If he's opposed then you know that he knows what he's doing is BS.

I think you're wasting your time with counseling. His other women mean more to him than you do.


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## turnera

He fears her, at least somewhat. He doesn't fear you. So he appeared to agree with her. Like you said, we'll see if he follows through.


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## cvd

Our next counseling session is next week and he's said nothing about emailing P to tell her to stop emailing him. I want to ask him if he did or not but think I'll just wait until the session. If I were him I would've said something right away if I'd done it so my spouse was put at ease. I wonder if he has any idea how uncomfortable this is for me. In other ways he's been very nice since the last session...less grumpy, less swearing, more pleasant, and actually brought up doing some things l like to do...things he normally gets grumpy about like hiking. It has been much nicer to be around him and he seems happier. I hate to be the one who is always bringing up difficult things that need talking about and the one who insists on counseling but I have to persevere. I have learned some things myself...like I think I'm going to do less talking about what I think is the "right" thing to do...and instead just ask for what I want. So less whining and more just being assertive of my needs. Less going on and on about what I value and instead just being firm knowing that this is what I want


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## cvd

We had our counseling session several weeks ago and my husband said he emailed P --- he waited until the morning of the appointment to do it. I was not happy about that, seemed rather passive aggressive but I said nothing. We discussed it in the session from the perspective that I needed more reassurance and he needs to not feel nagged. Also talked about how he feels I am scolding him if I go into a lot of detail when trying to talk to him. So I'll try to just stick to the main point...realizing that he does know what I'm talking about. Therapist told him to try to give me eye-contact and he has been a little better about that.

Things have continued to get better. We are doing more things together again...laughter has returned. He is much more attentive.

This being Xmas week we have been getting cards. Got a Xmas card and long Xmas typed letter yesterday from that single woman friend who was way too interested in him and whom he wanted to be a father-figure to her son and take fishing all the time. "S" included photos of her and her son as part of the letter. I got the card before my husband saw it and am thinking of just throwing it away. Before she started spending more time with us, my husband and she exchanged Xmas cards each year. I was never concerned about it because he said they were just been old college friends, never lovers. But when she became involved in our lives it was very apparent she had been more (a lot of energy between them). I told him then that I didn't want her in our life. However I erroneously thought that returning to just exchanging Xmas cards would be acceptable. I now realize it isn't. I feel like she has invaded our Xmas...even if it is just me who knows about the card.

I am feeling chicken about saying anything. Hence the idea to just throw the card away. I know I need to talk to him about this...I just want to wait till after the holidays.

Is it okay to just throw away this card and letter...or should I give it to him when I say something about this?

Thanks again for your input.


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## The Middleman

Just toss the card out.


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## cvd

Maybe I shouldn't say anything at all but just toss the card and letter and be done with it. He didn't do anything that I know of to prompt her sending them so why even bring it up?


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## Omego

She's interested in him, clearly. Throw the card away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Omego

Cvd, I've just read your thread. The various women you've referred to are all interested in your husband. They are/were fishing. 

As so many others have said, all you can do is establish boundaries for yourself. If he wants to develop relationships with other women, he will and you can't stop him.

You can, however, decide not to be there to watch. 

I think his behavior has been totally unacceptable from the start. It's ridiculous to be negotiating about contact from exes. What is his issue? He knows it bothers you so if he valued your relationship he would stop.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but don't question your unease anymore. You are 100% justified to feel badly about this entire situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cvd

Yeah - the therapist told him to "man up" and tell PV not to contact him any more. It took the therapist telling him to finally get him to do it. And I agree about the xmas card and letter. Tossed them!!! Nothing needs to be said.


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## cvd

Omego said:


> Cvd, I've just read your thread. The various women you've referred to are all interested in your husband. They are/were fishing.
> 
> As so many others have said, all you can do is establish boundaries for yourself. If he wants to develop relationships with other women, he will and you can't stop him.
> 
> You can, however, decide not to be there to watch.
> 
> I think his behavior has been totally unacceptable from the start. It's ridiculous to be negotiating about contact from exes. What is his issue? He knows it bothers you so if he valued your relationship he would stop.
> 
> I'm sorry to be so blunt but don't question your unease anymore. You are 100% justified to feel badly about this entire situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your input, Omega. This is how I felt and it helps to know others see it too. What was so hard is that I'm okay with my husband having friends but wasn't prepared for these two women from his past to be so interested in him and to realize that either consciously or unconsciously he felt something for them and didn't want to give up contact. He thought it was okay to be in contact with them because he would never do anything "wrong" (i.e. have a physical affair). What he didn't realize was that emotional attachment can be just as hurtful. 

It was hard to take a stand but I have and will continue to do so. After some counseling I think my husband has become more aware of how his actions affected me and I think he feels bad about it. Time will tell. Sadly, I believe these women will probably continue to try contacting him in the future...as they have done so repeatedly for the past 20 years!


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## cvd

I can't believe it but this crap just drags on and on. On New Years day my husband pulled out a big box of his old photos (family and friends) to look for ones of a college friend who died recently. This box has LOTS of photos of the old girlfriends who have caused problems (SC and PV). I know this because several times over the years he has looked at photos from this box that is normally packed away in the garage. It didn't bother me before because these two old girlfriends hadn't caused so much trouble yet. Now it does. He spread the photos in piles all over the living room while he was sorting through them. He also brought out an old college album that had photos of SC in it from their dorm days. 

I was feeling hurt inside but didn't say anything because I thought he'd look through the photos, get the ones of his friend and then pack everything away again. Under usual circumstances I feel totally okay about my husband keeping old photos and letters because it is his past...just pack them away...be sensitive that they are not of interest to me.

However he kept the piles out in the living room for four days and spent the weekend going through them one by one. When I left to do errands I'd come back and the door would be locked...something we don't usually do when one of us is home. He had to have known that I knew all those photos of SC and PV were among the ones he was looking at. 

Sometime late Sunday he put away all of the photos except for ones of his family. I was relieved that he'd finally packed away all those photos that included the ones of SC and PV. Out of sight...out of mind. On Monday I was putting some clothes in his closet and noticed that right above the ones he usually wears was an 8x10 photo of him and PV in a special photo folder, next to that was a box filled with photos of SC, PV and other college friends. 

Yes, I snooped a little by looking in that box but I was upset because he hadn't packed everything away but instead put it where he could easily look at the photos and he had placed that 8x10 of PV and him right where he'd see it everyday.

So I took that 8x10 photo and the ones of SC and PV and have put them in a folder and hidden it away. I would never normally do something like this but I'm so sick and tired of trying to tell him how this makes me feel. I would never pull out photos of old boyfriends to look at, especially if they had been causing problems in our marriage.

Was I wrong to do this?


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## Evinrude58

If burn them and tell him to kiss your ass and leave and don't come back of he wants his old gf's more than his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I have an issue with my H leaving his dirty socks on the floor in front of the couch. Day after day after day. Unless he leaves them on the floor in the bedroom. The last time we fought, he PROMISED me he was going to stop leaving them for me to pick up. Promised. Yesterday I picked up three pairs. Pairs that he found ON the couch on his spot, and I remarked 'those are dirty socks; the socks you said you would put away.' He then left them there. Anyway.

A wise person here told me to pick them up and either throw them away or put them in a bag somewhere, and just let him run out of socks. At that point, inform him why he has no socks left. Because of HIS actions.

Not quite the same analogy, but you guys supposedly had an agreement, yes? Then he gets to enjoy the consequence HE brought on by ignoring HIS agreement.

And whenever it comes to a confrontation, I'd say 'you can have those pictures. If they're that important to you, I'll give them to you. They're inside this folder; the one with the divorce papers. Just give me the word, and it's all yours.'


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## jdawg2015

OP, I would toss them and tell you husband you've had enough. "It's clear you want to keep your ex gf in the picture and it's them or me. I want all photos gone as they are hurtful to me. If that is not enough then we're done".

But you have to back it up. He thinks you are bluffing.

The fact that he was in contact and creating issues makes the photos still around a lot more onerous than just having kept them around, etc.

You really need to drive a knife into this issue and kill it off. 

I would even start sleeping in another room, etc. Basically a min 180.

Locking the door and hiding the photos? Come on. Call him on it. Directly.

Be firm dear, he's treating you like a doormat.


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## cvd

The hard thing is that he has been much nicer lately...so to have him do this with the photos is confusing. I had a bad nightmare about this whole thing and woke up at 3 this morning. He woke up at 4 and said he was going into work early. 

I can't remember how exactly I brought it up but I told him about the photos and how upset I was that he did this...that he was pouring over these photos of PV and SC and that he put an 8x10 of PV in his closet and a box of photos of PV and SC next to it. After much talking on my part (once again...god I hate this...) he finally admitted that he had looked at them one by one and thought about them. He said he was sorry, he didn't mean to upset me. He said he put the 8x10 in his closet because it was big like the other photos next to it - that's all - no other meaning. He had nothing to say about the box of photos of PV and SC next to it. It was such a lame response. I got so angry. 

He said absolutely nothing that showed any understanding of what I might be going through...none. He said he was sorry and that he loved me and I told him he had a pretty poor way of showing it. I told him that so far all he has done by his actions is show me that he is still attached to PV and SC...so attached that he is keeping their photos visibly nearby. That his email to PV that was supposedly to stop contact didn't even come close (...telling her he couldn't do emails did nothing to stop her from contacting him in other ways...). That waiting until moments before our counseling session (weeks after he said he'd do it) to send this email only showed how much he was dragging his feet.

I told him I was the one having to point out things that were wrong...I was the one having to ask him to stop...I was the one having to comment on when things were getting out of control with PV and SC...that he had done and was doing absolutely NOTHING on his own to initiate behavior that showed to me that these women were in his past and he was not attached to them. I can think of a million things he could have done all along that would have shown solidarity with me versus attachment to them. 

I am so tired. I went into a rage. I pulled down the box of photos in his closet and threw them on the floor. I hit him in the chest (he's 6'4" and I'm 5'4" - no excuse for hitting and the first time I have ever done it and I am upset that I did it but I was unbelievably angry...still no excuse...) This is the second time I have raged in our marriage. The first was over PV weeks ago after he brought up divorce. 

I told him I had the photos of PV and SC. He said he was sorry and should not have kept them. I asked him so why did you??? And he couldn't answer. I told him "you can't have it all...you can't have them and me. As of tonight, even though you say you are sorry, by your behavior of keeping these photos after all that has happened with these women, you are showing me that you want both. You can't have both. You can't have me and also be emotionally f**king these women." That caught his attention...it was like he hadn't considered that...I said "Yes - that's what you've been doing. Emotional f**king can be just as hurtful to a spouse as physical. You need to leave and figure this out." 

I was and am feeling very upset with myself for getting so angry. And knowing him, I know that he will hold it against me even though I may have had plenty of reasons to be angry. 

I feel he forced me into this place of being so angry by his behavior...by continuing to do things that show his attachment to these women. I think any woman or man in my position would have felt as I have. I feel that consciously or unconsciously he was provoking me with the photos. 

He said he'd go...that he just wants me to be happy and at peace and that he loves me. What??? He said "Haven't I been nicer lately?" Well, yes...but then you do this thing with the photos! This is all coming out as if I am the weird one here. 

I can't win. And now to top it off I have gone way beyond my personal limits of how to behave when angry...I have thrown things around and I hit my husband. I feel terrible. Really terrible. This is so unfair. I haven't asked for any of this. I have tried to be reasonable and it isn't working. I told him that if he loves me as he says then he has to do something, DO things that show what he says is true. He has to demonstrate his love. That I'm not going to tell him how or what to do...I have tried and it hasn't worked. It is up to him now.

He left. And I feel drained and empty.


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## Thor

Cvd, I think you did the right thinig. Sorry you're in such a tough spot with him.

I'm in a similar position though not as dramatic as yours, with my wife and one of her exes. Some people just think quite differently, and I think our spouses just aren't capable of processing how these things affect others. Another way of looking at it is a total inability to have empathy. It could also be a function of selfishness and care-less-ness about others.

Your husband could be acting nicer towards you because he realizes he hasn't been as positive with you as he should be. Yet at the same time he feels completely justified in looking at pictures and thinking of his old girlfriends. In his mind they are completely separate items. That is how I think my wife views it. She compartmentalizes more than normal, and certainly more than I do.

In the end, your husband may care for you much more than these old girlfriends, but he has no ability to understand how hurtful it is that he maintains thoughts about these other women. Even if you try the old "how would you feel if the roles were reversed?" tactic on him, it won;t have any effect because to him he doesn't see it as a big deal. With no ability for empathy he can't view it from your perspective.

That's how I see it working with my wife, and how I suspect it is with your husband. He needs to see how deeply serious it is to you before it may make any impression on him.


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## StilltheStudent

CVD,

Confronting your husband and demanding he make a choice was absolutely the correct move.

His actions have crossed so many lines that it is clear he is actively breaking your relationship.

But this…



cvd said:


> I can't win. And now to top it off I have gone way beyond my personal limits of how to behave when angry...*I have thrown things around and I hit my husband.*


Is crossing an entirely different line which is entirely unacceptable.

You need to find a healthy way to manage your anger and frustration. 

All this does is actually make you the bad guy here when it was his actions that are the real problem.

Do you really see a potential for long term reconciliation at this point? From everything you have said it sounds like he wants out of this marriage arrangement but lacks the resolve to actually detach.


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## Thor

StilltheStudent said:


> CVD,
> But this…
> 
> 
> 
> Is crossing an entirely different line which is entirely unacceptable.
> 
> You need to find a healthy way to manage your anger and frustration.


I'm going to disagree a bit. Given the difference in physical size and the reported level of physicality, I say don't be upset you did it. But, don't do it again, either.

It was likely an effective demonstration to him of the level of your emotional distress, which words alone have not been able to convey in the past despite numerous conversations and confrontations.

But now it is time for steely resolve and cold conversations. The contrast with your hot outburst should show him how much things have changed. When you were all emotional it showed how attached you were to him. Now when you are firm and unemotional it should scare him.

It sounds like this was a very abnormal outburst for you. If you feel like you want to throw things or hit him again, you should seek counseling to find more effective ways of dealing with your anger and frustration.

For now though I would say don't worry about what happened. In all but the most recent times it would have been completely normal and acceptable to get physical. (My opinion would be much different if this were an ongoing pattern or if there were potential he could have been harmed.)


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## StilltheStudent

TAM, where physical spousal abuse is ok if the victim is a man and the perpetrator is an angry woman.


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## StilltheStudent

It does not matter how angry you are, how hurt you are, or how frustrated you are.

Even if all of those emotions are 100% legitimate (and in this case they clearly are, given CVD's husband's long line of unacceptable behaviors)…

It is *never* acceptable to escalate into physical abuse.

CVD needs to apologize for the physical altercation, recognize that it is a completely unacceptable way to express her frustration, and channel those feelings into a resolve.

Time to force hubby to make up his mind and deal with the consequences of his actions.


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## cvd

I am scared that underneath it all my husband has not been happy in our marriage for awhile. That is the only reason I can see for his behavior. Why else would he continue to do things that are so hurtful? Could he be so selfish? But I have seen him be very empathetic with others so I know he can be empathetic. 

I was very wrong to throw the photos and I was incredibly wrong to hit him. How did it get to this? I've tried so hard and failed miserably. It feels so unfair.

This thing with the photos just pushed me over the edge. How could he put that 8x10 of he and PV up there? I can't stop crying. It's so unfair. I have done nothing to deserve this. Nothing. I have been a good wife and faithful.

And now I have been pushed to the brink and behaved worse than I ever thought I was capable of.


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## cvd

I did apologize to him...almost immediately. I was overwhelmed with anger and then overwhelmed that I hit him. I have never done anything like that before. It shames me even now to think I was pushed to the point that I did that. It just shows me how awful this situation has gotten...for me to have gotten that angry. 

I tried so hard to take the "high road" --- to not let the photo thing bother me. And I was doing fine for several days, even with the piles of photos out, until I saw that 8x10 in the closet and the box of photos of SC and PV. I even tried to just deal with that by taking the photos and stashing them away. But finally I had to say something. It was his response that putting the photos up there meant nothing that sent me over the edge. And then he started talking about how looking at the photos brought back fond memories for him of SC and PV and I lost it. I threw down the box of photos...I hit him.

There is no excuse for my behavior. None. I have apologized. I hope to God that I never feel like this again or do that again.


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## StilltheStudent

Realizing that his behaviors helped pushed you in this direction might help clarify things.

It sounds like time to put your foot down and to keep it there; either he makes some immediate and massive changes or else you have to be willing to end it.

Nothing is going to improve unless he makes a choice.

And if he refuses to make a choice that means he is not going to be choosing _you_.

It is not worth driving yourself crazy and pushing yourself over the edge to try and save this.


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## cvd

Thor said:


> Some people just think quite differently, and I think our spouses just aren't capable of processing how these things affect others. Another way of looking at it is a total inability to have empathy. It could also be a function of selfishness and care-less-ness about others.
> 
> Your husband could be acting nicer towards you because he realizes he hasn't been as positive with you as he should be. Yet at the same time he feels completely justified in looking at pictures and thinking of his old girlfriends. In his mind they are completely separate items.
> 
> In the end, your husband may care for you much more than these old girlfriends, but he has no ability to understand how hurtful it is that he maintains thoughts about these other women. Even if you try the old "how would you feel if the roles were reversed?" tactic on him, it won;t have any effect because to him he doesn't see it as a big deal. With no ability for empathy he can't view it from your perspective.
> 
> That's how I see it working with my wife, and how I suspect it is with your husband. He needs to see how deeply serious it is to you before it may make any impression on him.


I'm wondering if you are right, Thor. I've seen him be empathetic in other situations but with this issue he is not. And hasn't been since the beginning when there was contact with PV and then with SC and then now again with PV, etc. The lack of empathy comes up when it has anything to do with these two women...all he thinks about is wanting connection with them...at the same time telling me he loves me. I stood my ground --- make a choice --- and he left. I have no idea what's going to happen next. Of course, now I look bad too (the extreme anger) but that's how it is.


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## always_hopefull

cvd said:


> I did apologize to him...almost immediately. I was overwhelmed with anger and then overwhelmed that I hit him. I have never done anything like that before. It shames me even now to think I was pushed to the point that I did that. It just shows me how awful this situation has gotten...for me to have gotten that angry.
> 
> I tried so hard to take the "high road" --- to not let the photo thing bother me. And I was doing fine for several days, even with the piles of photos out, until I saw that 8x10 in the closet and the box of photos of SC and PV. I even tried to just deal with that by taking the photos and stashing them away. But finally I had to say something. It was his response that putting the photos up there meant nothing that sent me over the edge. And then he started talking about how looking at the photos brought back fond memories for him of SC and PV and I lost it. I threw down the box of photos...I hit him.
> 
> There is no excuse for my behavior. None. I have apologized. I hope to God that I never feel like this again or do that again.


Cvd, you need to start doing the 180 for your own sanity, his actions are not backing up his words and this will literally drive you insane. Rest assured this too is a form of emotional abuse, he either understands how you feel and blatantly keeps hurting you, or he's so clueless to your needs that he's not even willing to listen or understand your hurt. Both scenarios are going to erode your mental stability. Start moving forward on healing yourself, get some IC and start worrying about you, not someone who you can't control.


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## 3Xnocharm

CVD, I am so proud of you that you finally let all of your emotions come out the way that you did. No, it's not OK that you hit him, but it's about time you got that pissed off about this whole thing, was way overdue. Clearly, being rational and calm about the whole thing was not working, was not getting through, was not going to get through to him. This whole incident with the pictures has demonstrated once and for all that he has zero respect for you and zero respect for your marriage. You were absolutely right to fly into that rage over this. Finally! 

You deserve better than a man who puts you third place behind his past and his memories with two other women. Fvck him.


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## Satya

I once flew into a rage at my ex H, not long before we parted ways. I was at the end of my tether and I'd been bottling stuff up for a while. 

I unloaded a full, verbal quantum torpedo spread at his face and threw pillows at his head. I had enough sense not to throw anything harder. 

But it was my absolute, pure rage that shocked him. Shocked and scared him. For ages, I had been a very patient, understanding, and compromising person and I'd reached The End. It was completely unlike me and to this day I've not had an outburst that has remotely reached that magnitude (or any real outburst at all, for that matter). 

It happens and I think it's actually necessary. Yes there are better channels, but sometimes you need to just let it out, and let it out at a specific person. It might be a sharp way of standing up for yourself, but I think it's because you've finally found your personal limits. Now they've been reached and you can more calmly and confidently exact and reinforce them.


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## turnera

3Xnocharm said:


> CVD, I am so proud of you that you finally let all of your emotions come out the way that you did. No, it's not OK that you hit him, but it's about time you got that pissed off about this whole thing, was way overdue. Clearly, being rational and calm about the whole thing was not working, was not getting through, was not going to get through to him. This whole incident with the pictures has demonstrated once and for all that he has zero respect for you and zero respect for your marriage. You were absolutely right to fly into that rage over this. Finally!
> 
> You deserve better than a man who puts you third place behind his past and his memories with two other women. Fvck him.


I completely agree. Hitting a man in the chest who's a full foot taller than you are and probably at least 50 pounds heavier...in a different, healthy, fun situation, he would have laughed at your pathetic attempt anyone would know was just for show. Because it was completely harmless. In other words, had you tried to hit him in the face, or used a tool of some sort to hit him, sure, feel bad. This? That was nothing more than it was - you finally being DONE and unable to hold in your frustration.

And to be honest, sometimes, that's the ONLY thing men will understand - anger, rage. The Walkaway Wife threads are filled with stories of men who listen to what makes the wife unhappy...and then promptly forget about it. Over and over and over. Until the wife just can't handle the neglect any more.


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## StilltheStudent

TAM is such an interesting place if you are a woman.

Multiple posters will actually help rationalize an escalation to physical violence for you if you are a woman, so long as it helps your husband understand your mental state.

An emotional outburst is fine, probably necessary.

But not a single post would be anything but appalled if a man had dropped those final lines in a comment about how he lost his temper with his wife and began throwing things at her.

CVD I am happy that you at least realized you were wrong and immediately apologized. You took it a step too far.

No matter what occurs in the long run I would recommend some personal counseling to help you deal with your mental state and emotions. It sounds like you need someone in just your corner to help you cope with this.

Although, I cannot help but think kicking your husband to the curb and doing a full 180 like always_hopefull suggested is the best way through this.

He wants to play games and make you expendable in the relationship? Don't play the game and take action first.


----------



## Thor

cvd said:


> I'm wondering if you are right, Thor. I've seen him be empathetic in other situations but with this issue he is not. And hasn't been since the beginning when there was contact with PV and then with SC and then now again with PV, etc. The lack of empathy comes up when it has anything to do with these two women...all he thinks about is wanting connection with them...at the same time telling me he loves me. I stood my ground --- make a choice --- and he left. I have no idea what's going to happen next. Of course, now I look bad too (the extreme anger) but that's how it is.


In my wife I've decided she has great capacity for sympathy but no capacity for empathy. Plus she can completely compartmentalize things in her mind. To her, her ex-bf is totally and completely separate from her marriage to me. She doesn't understand that bringing him into the marriage does then impact me and the marriage. To her, they remain separate things.

I'm guessing your husband does something similar in his mind. He thinks fondly of you, but that is totally separate from how he thinks of the others. Therefore he doesn't understand how to you it could be hurtful.

The problem is he doesn't care enough that it *does* hurt you even though he doesn't understand *why* it hurts you.


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## Satya

StilltheStudent said:


> Multiple posters will actually help rationalize an escalation to physical violence for you if you are a woman, so long as it helps your husband understand your mental state.


You must see things I fail to. I haven't seen any rationalization from anyone in this post, I see them telling it like it is, and owning up to poor behavior (myself included) and that there are better ways than aggression. That aggression tends to be the last straw for many women, the last ounce of caring bursting out in the only way they haven't yet tried. Doesn't make it civil, but when a woman's quiet is when men should be very worried. 

I could say that lots of posters here help men to rationalize their stonewalling and emotional distance, but I also know many men that post here who are pretty hard on their own. There's a bunch of ladies here pretty hard on their own as well.


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## StilltheStudent

Satya said:


> You must see things I fail to.


Then I suggest you read what the other posters actually wrote:

Thor outright said it was an effective demonstration and that, while she shouldn't do it again, she shouldn't be upset she physically assaulted her husband.

3Xnocharm did the classic, "While it's not ok you hit him, it's a good thing you did…" schtick.

Tunera called it "completely harmless."

You yourself argued that physical outbursts not only happen but are sometimes necessary.



Satya said:


> I haven't seen any rationalization from anyone in this post, I see them telling it like it is, and owning up to poor behavior (myself included) and that there are better ways than aggression. That aggression tends to be the last straw for many women, the last ounce of caring bursting out in the only way they haven't yet tried. Doesn't make it civil, but when a woman's quiet is when men should be very worried.


And if the person chucking things and taking a swing was a man you would all be screaming bloody murder about how she needs to run away from an abuser *immediately*.

Even if the man did not do any real damage and was never going to actually injure her.

It would not make a difference.

But no, this is different, because it's a woman.

Give me a break.

She went past the point of acceptability and demonstrated, literally, a violent temper directed at her husband.

That should tell her the relationship is over.

I could be wrong and I just missed the threads where TAM posters talk about how a man doing the same thing "while not a good thing, was probably necessary," with a potentially cheating/cheating spouse.



Satya said:


> I could say that lots of posters here help men to rationalize their stonewalling and emotional distance, but I also know many men that post here who are pretty hard on their own. There's a bunch of ladies here pretty hard on their own as well.


What does this have to do with anything?

The "well male posters do it to" defense demonstrates a further problem with this place, it does not excuse the original one I mentioned.


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## turnera

Tell me how a 5' 4" woman can hit a 6' 4" man on the chest, with her fists, and harm him?

I'm waiting.


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## WorkingOnMe

turnera said:


> Tell me how a 5' 4" woman can hit a 6' 4" man on the chest, with her fists, and harm him?
> 
> I'm waiting.


Whether it harms him or not is not the point. You know that. Come on tunera! If a man put hands on his wife in anger you'd be ok with it as long as it didn't physically "harm" her? Really? The OP has already said she was wrong for resorting to violence, ineffective as it was. She doesn't need to be piled on, but it doesn't need to be condoned either.


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## turnera

Nope, not buying it. This woman has dealt with a man who steadfastly refused to participate in their marriage. She is beyond wits' end. Distraught. Incapable of getting ANY response from him. And we're gonna tear her apart for FINALLY blowing it and hitting him on the chest, akin to hitting your best friend with a fly swatter? Nope.


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## Satya

StilltheStudent said:


> What does this have to do with anything?
> 
> The "well male posters do it to" defense demonstrates a further problem with this place, it does not excuse the original one I mentioned.


It has to do with my disagreement with the basis of your blanket statement in support for posters rationalizing aggressive behavior in women. 

I can as easily make a blanket statement about men here, but I don't believe it's true.

BTW I am not saying you're incorrect, you're welcome to feel as you do. As am I. 

I look at this whole post and see the progressive frustration with the husband's bad behavior and disrespect while his wife is losing her patience and resolve, whilst trying desperately not to.

I'm not a violent person by nature and neither is the OP from what I can gather. If you read my post, I said my outburst was unlike me. The OP used the same words to describe her actions (in an earlier post) when she got angry. Regarding hitting her H, she was remorseful, surprised by what she did, and apologized. 

I don't condone her choice of behavior, but I do understand how it came to be. I think that is how we differ on this. You are seeing it in black and white while I'm seeing the grey.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Satya said:


> You are seeing it in black and white while I'm seeing the grey.


I agree, if this applies to men and women.


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## Thor

WorkingOnMe said:


> Whether it harms him or not is not the point. You know that. Come on tunera! If a man put hands on his wife in anger you'd be ok with it as long as it didn't physically "harm" her? Really? The OP has already said she was wrong for resorting to violence, ineffective as it was. She doesn't need to be piled on, but it doesn't need to be condoned either.


If a 5'4" MAN with little strength put his hands on his 6'4" WIFE, no I wouldn't call it abuse. Not in an isolated incident. And I would also say he shouldn't do it again and he should seek counseling if he finds he can't control himself in the future.

Normally, the man is larger and a lot stronger than the woman. Which makes any angry physical confrontation both dangerous and frightening to the woman. And that certainly is abuse, even once.

At least in my opinion. You are entitled to, and welcome to, your own opinion.


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## 3Xnocharm

StilltheStudent said:


> 3Xnocharm did the classic, "While it's not ok you hit him, it's a good thing you did…" schtick.
> 
> Tunera called it "completely harmless."


I did not say it was a good thing she hit him. Her finally expressing her anger and frustration and hurt over this whole thing is what I was supporting. I have been where she is, I have had that explosive fit of rage. (didnt hit) Sad that anyone can be driven to that point and sometimes its the only thing that finally gets through to the other person. Many times though, it still wont matter to them. 

To be totally honest, I hope she is finally done with him. No spouse deserves this bullsh!t level of disrespect.


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## Satya

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I agree, if this applies to men and women.


Hitting is wrong. End of. 
But yes, men and women have their breaking points. Sometimes those breaking points are reached more frequently for some reason (mental, psychological, troubled, etc. Then we see regular abuse.


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## jdawg2015

cvd, you are going to have to stay pissed and start withdrawing from your husband. It's going to be hard as it's out of your comfort zone.
I know you feel your husband should get rid of those women on his own. So you need to spell it out and not repeat why etc.

Show him if he continues to keep them around

Tell him you aren't going to be the jealous wife, and that you also aren't going to be a doormat.

I would also tell him something like, "maybe I should go get pictures of the ex bf's I fugged and spread them out on the floor, message them, and keep the photos at arms length. Guess I can use the ego boost since I want to level the playing field". 

Do you have any pics from you ex around to mirror what he's doing? Trust me it's the best way to make the point.

Time he feels the pinch... this is all about a power shift. Make your husband realize he's losing you. Start sleeping in another room, etc.

If he doesn't respond and doesn't care then you have your answer on where he's at in the head anyways. Be willing to accept the answer.


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## cvd

I agree with posters who say that aggression is never acceptable. I have always believed that aggression is never acceptable and this is how I have lived my life. I am mortified I lost control to the point that I did this. I know it barely fazed him because he is so much bigger than I am in height (6'4" to 5'4") and weight (250lb to 115lb) but it still isn't right and never will be in my book. We have a counseling appointment in two days and I will be upfront and truthful. I am hopeful she can lend insight. I just can't take any more of this. I told him if there was any more contact with these women, our marriage was over but I hadn't figured in the photo thing as meaning "contact". Now I do. I told him during my outburst that I never wanted to see, hear or have anything to do with these women ever again or we were done.

He has been all nice and trying to be extra helpful around the house. But I have taken a cool approach (sleeping separately, etc.) We are in a bad cycle...I know it because I went though something similar in my first marriage. My ex was leading a double life and became very irresponsible - he was verbally and eventually physically abusive when I found out about it. I had to leave that marriage to break the cycle. 

In my current marriage I would have never believed I could find myself in this weird place again. It's different though. My husband does not abuse alcohol or drugs, he is a good provider and a good father. Everything is okay except for this problem with these women and his preoccupation with maintaining contact with them even after being told they are "fishing" and that it hurts me.

Everyone has people in their past but if they are sensitive to their spouse they keep their memories and feelings to themselves and if these people intrude on their marriage they politely tell them to butt out...they are happily married, etc. My husband has not done this with these two women...over and over he has failed to do it...even after being asked nicely, then insistently, then desperately and then finally in an absolute breakdown of pleading and ranting, etc., etc. It has crossed the line.

I am not sure what can be done to fix it. What could he do? I guess I am waiting to hear him say "I understand what you are saying. I am ashamed I put you through this. How can I make it up to you? I know that nothing but my actions will help you feel trusting again but I will keep on telling you too." Anything like this would begin the healing. He has yet to say anything other than "I'm sorry" (...after my totally out of control outbursts - the two of them) and to say "I should have gotten rid of that 8x10." That's it thus far. My biggest challenge is to keep my mouth shut in counseling and let him talk more. I have been sharing what's wrong, how I am hurt and what I want him to do...to the point that all he's had to say is "okay" and then drag his feet like waiting until the very last minute to email PV before our counseling session.

The sad thing is it all seems so obvious to me. If he loves me as he says he does, he wouldn't want to hurt me...he would think before he acts. Sigh...


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## turnera

Therapy - for him - is the only thing I can think of that could help him. That and losing you.


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## lifeistooshort

Hon, he's basically drawn a line in the sand. These are his terms with you, and he will get away with whatever he can. 

He isn't behaving like a married man.

You really should think about walking over this..... he doesn't take you seriously. 

If it were me I'd tell him in a very calm tone that it's clear to you that marriage doesn't mean to him what it means to you. So either you're done or you'll find some nice male friends of your own and you'll have a nice open marriage. 

He's not going to see things your way and he'll get away with what he can. You're allowing it by sticking around and playing his little bullsh!t games with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

lifeistooshort said:


> He's not going to see things your way and he'll get away with what he can. You're allowing it by sticking around and playing his little bullsh!t games with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. I feel like all you are doing now is just punishing yourself by staying in this and doing the counseling, etc. You did not set any real boundaries, so he figures he can do what he wants and you arent going to go anywhere. What you expect of him is very simple and basic, and he doesnt care enough about you to do it. And why should he do something he doesnt want to do? You keep going to MC instead of filing for divorce, which is the only thing that MIGHT light a fire under his ass. The man has zero respect for you. 

Ugh, reading about him with those photos triggered me...


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## cvd

We had our counseling session. It was very intense. The therapist worked with me on stating more clearly and more immediately when my husband is hurting my feelings or provoking me so that I don't stuff my feelings and then explode like I did. She called my husband to the mat about provoking me over and over again, especially with putting the photos out for days and then putting them where they were so visible. 

She made it clear that anybody would react when provoked like that...not that being physical is acceptable...but that it is entirely understandable I reacted. He kept trying to say that I was overreacting and totally out of line. She said no...that being physical was out of line but getting really mad was not. She again emphasized how much he had provoked me over the years. She tried to get him to talk about why but he kept saying that provoking me was not his intention. She said that may have not been your intention but it is what you have done repeatedly. She now wants to see us individually. It was obvious from the session that my husband has things he can't talk about in front of me right now. 

I am drained from the session but it felt good that she was upfront and to the point about what is acceptable and what is not.


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## lifeistooshort

Counseling, hurt feelings, blah blah.

Your hb wants to keep his [email protected] around. Period. What are you accomplishing with counseling? 

He needs a counselor to tell him that what he's doing is bullsh!t? Why do you let him insult your intelligence? 

He knows, and he also knows you're still there playing games with him. 

If you get counseling for anything it should be to find out why you play games with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015

May I ask how educated your husband? His line of work?

He either has the EQ of a 3 year old to not get why having pictures of exes laying around would cause hard feelings or he's checking out of the marriage.

ANYONE would know that this kind of thing would be hitting nerves. I'm basically an alpha male but I'm definitely not insensitive enough to place pics of exes out (in fact I threw them all out) even after my wife had told me they bother her.

He needs to be sh|t tested and you need to go 180 here CVD. Follow this advice. Based on what you are saying, the ONLY wake up call that will ring his bell is that his actions mean you will leave if they continue. You're miserable by choice at this point. Don't let it continue. 180 my dear, start fixing yourself at this point and if he wants to ride the marriage train, he needs to buy a ticket.

Your counselor also needs to stop playing neutrality here. This one's damn obvious the marriage will implode if he keeps doing what he's doing. Don't let her go at this too long and enable him either. Your boundary is clear and reasonable. One individual round each and then a joint session. If he's not getting it by that point you're wasting time in counselling.



cvd said:


> We had our counseling session. It was very intense. The therapist worked with me on stating more clearly and more immediately when my husband is hurting my feelings or provoking me so that I don't stuff my feelings and then explode like I did. She called my husband to the mat about provoking me over and over again, especially with putting the photos out for days and then putting them where they were so visible.
> 
> She made it clear that anybody would react when provoked like that...not that being physical is acceptable...but that it is entirely understandable I reacted. He kept trying to say that I was overreacting and totally out of line. She said no...that being physical was out of line but getting really mad was not. She again emphasized how much he had provoked me over the years. She tried to get him to talk about why but he kept saying that provoking me was not his intention. She said that may have not been your intention but it is what you have done repeatedly. She now wants to see us individually. It was obvious from the session that my husband has things he can't talk about in front of me right now.
> 
> I am drained from the session but it felt good that she was upfront and to the point about what is acceptable and what is not.


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## cvd

The therapist said for me to "forget PV and SC" but instead focus only on how my husband is treating me...that the reason why is not as important as the fact he is doing it at all. She emphasized to him that there is a MAJOR disconnect between what he says (loves me) and his behavior towards me. She does not think he's actually cheating but instead is an ingrained behavior that HE needs to work on. Hence the individual sessions.


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## jdawg2015

cvd said:


> The therapist said for me to "forget PV and SC" but instead focus only on how my husband is treating me...that the reason why is not as important as the fact he is doing it at all. She emphasized to him that there is a MAJOR disconnect between what he says (loves me) and his behavior towards me. She does not think he's actually cheating but instead is an ingrained behavior that HE needs to work on. Hence the individual sessions.


I'm not sure how often counselling actually gets a person to not only admit what they are doing is wrong but then to freely admit it and change the behavior. 

This is actually ridiculous that you need a 3rd party to tell your husband that having pics of ex gfs laying around and contacting them is something that is ok. Step back and think about it.

I would look at him and say, "do you know you are losing me by keeping those exes in the present"?

See what he says.


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## Thor

cvd said:


> The therapist said for me to "forget PV and SC" but instead focus only on how my husband is treating me...that the reason why is not as important as the fact he is doing it at all. She emphasized to him that there is a MAJOR disconnect between what he says (loves me) and his behavior towards me. She does not think he's actually cheating but instead is an ingrained behavior that HE needs to work on. Hence the individual sessions.


Exactly what one of my counselors told me.

My wife had several boyfriends before me. Only one of them has been a continual problem in our marriage. There has never been any indication that she was thinking of any of the others during the marriage, so I never felt there was any competition or threat with them.

If my wife made me feel like I was #1 to her, there would be no issue with ass clown the musician ex-bf. Ass clown is in fact a low life scum bag who has tried to reconnect with her several times, but if my wife's actions were solid then there would be no anguish on my part.

That's the same boat you're in. Your husband's actions are not showing you that he thinks only of you or that you're a solid #1 in his book. His actions are the problem, not the other women nor your reactions to what he is doing. His behavior is the problem.


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## FeministInPink

Thor said:


> Exactly what one of my counselors told me.
> 
> My wife had several boyfriends before me. Only one of them has been a continual problem in our marriage. There has never been any indication that she was thinking of any of the others during the marriage, so I never felt there was any competition or threat with them.
> 
> If my wife made me feel like I was #1 to her, there would be no issue with ass clown the musician ex-bf. Ass clown is in fact a low life scum bag who has tried to reconnect with her several times, but if my wife's actions were solid then there would be no anguish on my part.
> 
> That's the same boat you're in. Your husband's actions are not showing you that he thinks only of you or that you're a solid #1 in his book. His actions are the problem, not the other women nor your reactions to what he is doing. His behavior is the problem.


AGREED!

And furthermore... if the OP's husband was treating her like she was #1 (and if Thor's wife was treating him like he was #1), these exes wouldn't be sniffing around either, because they would see it as a waste of their time.


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## Idun

lifeistooshort said:


> Hon, he's basically drawn a line in the sand. These are his terms with you, and he will get away with whatever he can.
> 
> He isn't behaving like a married man.
> 
> You really should think about walking over this..... he doesn't take you seriously.
> 
> If it were me I'd tell him in a very calm tone that it's clear to you that marriage doesn't mean to him what it means to you. So either you're done or you'll find some nice male friends of your own and you'll have a nice open marriage.
> 
> He's not going to see things your way and he'll get away with what he can. You're allowing it by sticking around and playing his little bullsh!t games with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just have to say... EVERY time I read one of your posts, I hear it in Leela's voice!


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## lifeistooshort

Idun said:


> I just have to say... EVERY time I read one of your posts, I hear it in Leela's voice!


Ha ha, does it help if I tell you that I have a black belt?

Now I can imagine me saying "hiiiya!" in her voice 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015

This is exactly the issue. Totally agree.



FeministInPink said:


> AGREED!
> 
> And furthermore... if the OP's husband was treating her like she was #1 (and if Thor's wife was treating him like he was #1), these exes wouldn't be sniffing around either, because they would see it as a waste of their time.


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## 3Xnocharm

Thor said:


> Exactly what one of my counselors told me.
> 
> My wife had several boyfriends before me. Only one of them has been a continual problem in our marriage. There has never been any indication that she was thinking of any of the others during the marriage, so I never felt there was any competition or threat with them.
> 
> If my wife made me feel like I was #1 to her, there would be no issue with ass clown the musician ex-bf. Ass clown is in fact a low life scum bag who has tried to reconnect with her several times, but if my wife's actions were solid then there would be no anguish on my part.
> 
> That's the same boat you're in. Your husband's actions are not showing you that he thinks only of you or that you're a solid #1 in his book. His actions are the problem, not the other women nor your reactions to what he is doing. His behavior is the problem.


Yeah, and you should have dumped YOUR wife a long time ago, Thor! You and CVD BOTH need divorce and move on.


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## cvd

I made it very clear that if there is anything more to do with these ex-girlfriends that we are done. He knows this. I've now had to make it clear that if he is disrespectful in any way that it is time for him to leave. 

He was behaving so much better towards me in the past several weeks and I started to relax again. Our 25th "silver" anniversary is next week and I began to look forward to it. He hadn't said anything about it so I brought up going to the coast for the weekend and he agreed. Nothing fancy but a short get-away. Last night he says to me "Do you really want something silver for the anniversary? There's been bills to pay..." He was saying it like he didn't want to get me a gift at all. He's said things like this before when I have a birthday coming up, etc. and I've usually said "Oh - that's okay I don't need anything". 

But a milestone anniversary like this and especially after everything that's happened I thought he'd go out of his way to do something nice...especially after saying he was sorry, etc. I was hurt. I said "This is awkward". He said "Well, there's been bills to pay...". I got upset. I said "You're provoking me. You know this is a big anniversary but you don't want to get me anything." He started back-peddling quickly and said that what he had meant to ask was what I wanted. I told him that's very different than what he actually said and I had a hard time believing him, especially since what he said included not having money for a gift. I reminded him that just last weekend he had gone away for a night with his friends to watch a game in another town...had stayed for the week for a work seminar and spent money for motel, drinks, etc. so he could surely buy me a small gift to commemorate our anniversary.

I told him if he ever did something like this again he could just leave.

This morning he was very repentant. He said he was sorry and asked for my help...that he hasn't been thinking right lately --- he's out-of-shape and he thinks that has led to his saying and doing things he hasn't meant to do.

I think he is grasping at straws. I told him so. I told him to go see our marriage counselor by himself and work this out. 

So the weirdness continues and it baffles me. He swears upside and down that he loves me and wants me in his life. He swears there is no conspiracy or that he is attracted to anyone else. He swears he wants to live his life with me. And yet this stuff keeps happening.

One more chance that's it and I'm done.


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## turnera

I'm glad you're finding your strength. Good job.


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## FeministInPink

Good for you, @cvd! I'm glad to see you standing up for yourself and FIGHTING for a healthy relationship, for what you deserve.

I hope he mans up, sees the counselor, and starts working on his own issues.

Keep us updated.


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## *Deidre*

I didn't read the entire thread, but read the last few pages, and it sounds cvd, like you are married to someone with narcissistic personality disorder. My advice is to find your own therapist who is well versed in personality disorders. Because they typically don't ever change, they just change the women they cheat with. Not suggesting you divorce, but this guy will never change. And the fact that you struck him, he can use that against you if you head down the divorce route. That's what they do...they are masters at silent treatment, crazy making, and manipulation. Please google this, and do some research...you will be stunned at what you read, and the similarities to your husband. Hugs and prayers for you!!


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## AliceA

Honestly CVD, I don't know how you are dealing with this much stress in your marriage. After dealing with the trauma of a cheating spouse, you go into a new relationship with boundaries in place to protect yourself. Those boundaries get trampled on and for years you deal with watching your spouse developing a relationship with an ex GF right in front of you. You finally can't stand it anymore and put your foot down but never have any closure because you know he just feels bitterness over having to finish it, never regret for what he put you through. 

Now another ex GF comes into his life and he swings the door wide open, asking to even spend time together. He proceeds to make you feel like garbage for even daring to have an issue with it. He punishes you by dragging his feet in cutting contact and putting out pictures of them. Then he passive agressively tries to tell you how unimportant your anniversary is to him by telling you he "can't afford" a gift.

I think you've dealt with a lot of bad in your life that when it's only somewhat bad you feel it is good. This isn't good by any normal standards. I would call this emotional torture.


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## FeministInPink

breeze said:


> Honestly CVD, I don't know how you are dealing with this much stress in your marriage. After dealing with the trauma of a cheating spouse, you go into a new relationship with boundaries in place to protect yourself. Those boundaries get trampled on and for years you deal with watching your spouse developing a relationship with an ex GF right in front of you. You finally can't stand it anymore and put your foot down but never have any closure because you know he just feels bitterness over having to finish it, never regret for what he put you through.
> 
> Now another ex GF comes into his life and he swings the door wide open, asking to even spend time together. He proceeds to make you feel like garbage for even daring to have an issue with it. He punishes you by dragging his feet in cutting contact and putting out pictures of them. Then he passive agressively tries to tell you how unimportant your anniversary is to him by telling you he "can't afford" a gift.
> 
> I think you've dealt with a lot of bad in your life that when it's only somewhat bad you feel it is good. This isn't good by any normal standards. I would call this emotional torture.


:iagree:


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## cvd

In many ways things have gotten better. My husband has been overall much more attentive and nicer...not getting upset at all about anything. This has been very nice but there are two things that happened since my last post in February that continue to keep me on edge and not sure if things will ever really change or if the pattern will just continue. 

The first thing happened in April. My husband left his work email open on our home computer and I happened to see that the series of emails between he and PV were still on it. I had deleted them months before and he knew that. Why were they on his computer again and how did they get there? I asked him but he claimed upside and down he had no idea how that happened. He said there had been a computer system recovery at his work and maybe that was how they got on there. But interestingly an email from his other old girlfriend SC was not on it (I also deleted that email but I don't think he knew about that). I deleted the emails (again) and also from his trash folder. He said to do it.

The next thing happened in June. There is a woman, a professional colleague, that works with an agency that also works with his. She is a single mom who has been trying for jobs in his state agency because it pays better. He has remarked that he feels sorry for her and her struggle to get better work. He also admires her work (same as his).
As part of talking about doing more things with people from his work, he told me he wanted to do more things with her socially, to give her support. I remember thinking why is he telling me this? Then about a month ago he said he was going out to breakfast with her the next day and I could come if I wanted to...but of course I couldn't because I had work. I asked how long he had known about this and he said a week and I asked why he hadn't told me sooner. He got all huffy saying I didn't want him to have friends. I got suspicious and said that this was sounding like a pattern...once again a needy single woman he wants to befriend...and not a work thing! He said in an angry voice...okay okay I'll take along my new employee. All this as if I was being weird.

Sigh...


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## 3Xnocharm

Oh hell no. The pattern continues.


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## lifeistooshort

Your hb has poor boundaries and likes attention from other women. 

That's clearly not going to change. 

Can you live with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

You need to read up on behaviors that people with tendencies to be self-centered use to control conversations and control the minds of their spouses. Gas lighting, name calling, projection, etc.

Your husband is doing things that are obviously wrong and selfish.
He never finds and male needy people to "befriend", just single women. 

When you call him out on stepping over this boundary, he name-calls, projects, and gaslights, and blame-shifts. Pretty typical behavior.

But you don't have to believe the b.s. That gets dumped on your head.

I really think your husband will be a chronic opportunistic cheater no matter who he is with. He searches constantly for attention from other women. He really needs some help.

You need to educate yourself on his behavior so you can be effective at detecting his techniques of diverting your attention from his bad behavior and justifying it, so you can stop or ignore it and not let it affect your very reasonable disdain for his behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

Evinrude58 said:


> You need to educate yourself on his behavior so you can be effective at detecting his techniques of diverting your attention from his bad behavior and justifying it, so you can stop or ignore it and not let it affect your very reasonable disdain for his behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or better yet, divorce his cheating ass and find a real man.


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## Openminded

My ex-husband was a classic KISA -- always finding needy women in his office to spend lots of time and energy befriending and mentoring and overall encouraging. He needed their constant validation that he was wonderful and terrific (my validation that he was those things obviously wasn't enough). Despite many discussions about the damage his behavior was doing to our marriage, that continued for several decades. 

Just giving you a glimpse into your possible future because your husband hasn't changed.


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## AliceA

He's deliberately trying to spend one on one time with a single woman, again. If you were to turn the tables and organise a breakfast, one on one, with a single male colleague because you wanted to 'support' him, how would your husband feel about that I wonder?


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## turnera

Don't you have any boundaries set up? I thought you had.


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## cvd

turnera said:


> Don't you have any boundaries set up? I thought you had.


I thought I had too. But the boundaries focused on contact with ex-girlfriends. Starting up a friendship with a single mom who he works with is something new. This threw me for a loop and I wasn't expecting it. But I responded quickly and told him very clearly that he was repeating his pattern of befriending single needy moms and I will not stand for it. To make things absolutely clear...I told him that we were done if he befriends any single women. Especially given everything that has happened with SC and PV and now reaching out to this work colleague. 

Interestingly - as usual it is me who is doing all the talking - the setting of boundaries. He doesn't offer any reassurances...only excuses. I feel like I am dealing with a stubborn teenager who begrudgingly follows the "rules"...not because they are internalized but because they are demanded of him.

Otherwise he is going out of his way to be more helpful at home, cheerful and attentive to me. He says he's trying to be a better husband. He's doing more things around the house.

When I think about the past year, besides seeing the pattern of who he is trying to be in contact with (single needy moms) I also see a pattern in timing. Since the first of the year things have happened in two month intervals. So stuff happened in Dec, then Feb, April, and June. There is a bit of a cycle. Something happens, there is high emotion then things calm down. I let down my guard and something happens again. But it is never quite the same thing so it throws me off. 

I find myself rehearsing in my mind how I will respond to different scenarios...like how I would respond if he brings up something with the work colleague again. Since stuff has happened every couple of months I am on edge because if the cycle goes as it has then something will happen in August.

When I realize I am doing this...obsessing that something bad will happen in an effort to be prepared...I know that I have to change my mindset.

I hope more than anything that the cycle will stop. That my husband will be more empathetic and sensitive...that he will follow the Golden Rule.

Part of what I think about is if he brings up something again (i.e. like some kind of contact with these women) that I will say nothing (I am so tired of doing all the talking...) and instead I'll just pack my bag and leave. No comment...nothing. Just leave - maybe go to the beach for an extended vacation.

He told me the other day that he'd had a nightmare that I left him. That it made him feel awful. I didn't say anything but left him with that feeling. I think he knows deep down that he's pushed it too much.


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## 3Xnocharm

Why would you pack your bags and leave for an extended vacation if he brings up contact with women?? That will accomplish NOTHING and is still YOU setting NO BOUNDARIES. 

I am pretty sure we are all wasting our breath, you are never going to leave this cheater. You have to know that he is never, ever going to change his ways...hell you yourself figured out that there is a pattern here. He knows you are staying with him no matter how many times he chooses other women, so why shouldn't he keep doing it? You are doing nothing but talking a better game, you are making no real strides here.


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## turnera

Ok, so now your boundary includes meeting any NEW possible EAs, right? And he knows that, right? 

But a boundary's no good without the consequence. So does he clearly understand what your consequence is? And what is it? That you move out? 

So now you've reset your new boundary; he needs to hear from you that you WILL leave the very next time, that he's lost his second and third chance, and there will be no more.

Question: Did you require him to go to therapy to get to the root of why he needs to keep doing this? IMO, that's the only way he's going to have a chance at stopping.


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## phillybeffandswiss

cvd said:


> I thought I had too. But the boundaries focused on contact with ex-girlfriends. Starting up a friendship with a single mom who he works with is something new. This threw me for a loop and I wasn't expecting it. But I responded quickly and told him very clearly that he was repeating his pattern of befriending single needy moms and I will not stand for it. To make things absolutely clear...I told him that we were done if he befriends any single women. Especially given everything that has happened with SC and PV and now reaching out to this work colleague.
> 
> Interestingly - as usual it is me who is doing all the talking - the setting of boundaries. He doesn't offer any reassurances...only excuses. I feel like I am dealing with a stubborn teenager who begrudgingly follows the "rules"...not because they are internalized but because they are demanded of him.
> 
> Otherwise he is going out of his way to be more helpful at home, cheerful and attentive to me. He says he's trying to be a better husband. He's doing more things around the house.
> 
> When I think about the past year, besides seeing the pattern of who he is trying to be in contact with (single needy moms) I also see a pattern in timing. Since the first of the year things have happened in two month intervals. So stuff happened in Dec, then Feb, April, and June. There is a bit of a cycle. Something happens, there is high emotion then things calm down. I let down my guard and something happens again. But it is never quite the same thing so it throws me off.
> 
> I find myself rehearsing in my mind how I will respond to different scenarios...like how I would respond if he brings up something with the work colleague again. Since stuff has happened every couple of months I am on edge because if the cycle goes as it has then something will happen in August.
> 
> When I realize I am doing this...obsessing that something bad will happen in an effort to be prepared...I know that I have to change my mindset.
> 
> I hope more than anything that the cycle will stop. That my husband will be more empathetic and sensitive...that he will follow the Golden Rule.
> 
> Part of what I think about is if he brings up something again (i.e. like some kind of contact with these women) that I will say nothing (I am so tired of doing all the talking...) and instead I'll just pack my bag and leave. No comment...nothing. Just leave - maybe go to the beach for an extended vacation.
> 
> He told me the other day that he'd had a nightmare that I left him. That it made him feel awful. I didn't say anything but left him with that feeling. I think he knows deep down that he's pushed it too much.


Does your husband have a mental deficiency or injury which inhibits his ability to think and reason logically? I'm asking because this post is you giving him a huge out for things he should know. 

I know people like to say you must spell things out. No. If my wife had a problem with ex girlfriends, I should be smart enough to know the same inappropriate behavior boundary applies to ALL WOMEN. 

You need to stop being passive and leave this guy or accept his wandering eye.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> Ok, so now your boundary includes meeting any NEW possible EAs, right? And he knows that, right?
> 
> But a boundary's no good without the consequence. So does he clearly understand what your consequence is? And what is it? That you move out?
> 
> *So now you've reset your new boundary; he needs to hear from you that you WILL leave the very next time,* that he's lost his second and third chance, and there will be no more.
> 
> Question: Did you require him to go to therapy to get to the root of why he needs to keep doing this? IMO, that's the only way he's going to have a chance at stopping.


But she WONT leave...she will go on vacation...THAT is the problem!


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## cvd

3Xnocharm said:


> Why would you pack your bags and leave for an extended vacation if he brings up contact with women?? That will accomplish NOTHING and is still YOU setting NO BOUNDARIES.
> 
> I am pretty sure we are all wasting our breath, you are never going to leave this cheater. You have to know that he is never, ever going to change his ways...hell you yourself figured out that there is a pattern here. He knows you are staying with him no matter how many times he chooses other women, so why shouldn't he keep doing it? You are doing nothing but talking a better game, you are making no real strides here.


I find it hard to leave because although what he's done thus far is emotional cheating --- it hasn't been overt physical cheating...it hasn't been flagrant affairs. I won't deny that his behavior has been terrible and it has taken an awful toll on our marriage. I have set boundaries and limits. We've seen a counselor. Will he change? Maybe not. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel yet.

Did he consciously realize what he was doing when he asked his female work associate out to breakfast after talking about her being "all alone"...that he was repeating his pattern of befriending a needy single woman and then acting without thinking it might hurt me? No - I don't think he was thinking of me at all. He was only thinking of his own emotional needs and of being "supportive" to someone he thought was in need. It only dawned on him at the last minute to include me. Was this a sincere desire to include me? He swears it was but my gut says it was an unconscious desire to have time with this woman alone because he knew I had to work. 

Was he seeking a physical affair? I don't think so. I think he wanted what he had with his friend SC...a friendship based on shared work, time with her boys to do fishing, etc. But I've already been through this and I know what eventually happens --- increasing contact and I get left out. So I nipped it in the bud. Maybe it wouldn't have gone there at all. But I'm not waiting to see.

I honestly do not think he's looking for physical affairs. He wants friendship. What's sad is that if he had acted differently, friendships with women might have been possible. I always thought I would be supportive of opposite sex friendships. But he behaved in a way that was provocative and evasive and then got mad at me for being suspicious. Now I am not okay with such friendships. 

Is this grounds to divorce someone? Maybe for some it is. I'm just not at that place yet. Perhaps for people reading my posts it appears that I have not made any progress. But I think I have. I am stating my boundaries very clearly. 

Regarding my posting leaving as an "extended vacation"...I'll admit that's my way of handling internally what for me is a very stressful idea...the idea of leaving if the line is crossed. It is how I handle the idea in my mind...I don't say it out loud...I just tell him I will leave.


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## 3Xnocharm

cvd said:


> I find it hard to leave because although what he's done thus far is emotional cheating --- it hasn't been overt physical cheating...it hasn't been flagrant affairs. I won't deny that his behavior has been terrible and it has taken an awful toll on our marriage. I have set boundaries and limits. We've seen a counselor. Will he change? Maybe not. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel yet.
> 
> Did he consciously realize what he was doing when he asked his female work associate out to breakfast after talking about her being "all alone"...that he was repeating his pattern of befriending a needy single woman and then acting without thinking it might hurt me? No - I don't think he was thinking of me at all. He was only thinking of his own emotional needs and of being "supportive" to someone he thought was in need. It only dawned on him at the last minute to include me. Was this a sincere desire to include me? He swears it was but my gut says it was an unconscious desire to have time with this woman alone because he knew I had to work.


He knew EXACTLY what he was doing. You are making excuses for him because this is what you want to believe. You are right, he was only thinking of his own needs, and you never entered his thought process. Emotional cheating is every bit as bad as physical cheating because it means they are getting needs met by someone outside of the marriage that SHOULD be met by their spouse. If one partner feels the other is not meeting their needs, then that needs to be discussed and worked on, not resolved by bringing in an outsider for intimacy!




cvd said:


> Was he seeking a physical affair? I don't think so. I think he wanted what he had with his friend SC...a friendship based on shared work, time with her boys to do fishing, etc. But I've already been through this and I know what eventually happens --- increasing contact and I get left out. So I nipped it in the bud. Maybe it wouldn't have gone there at all. But I'm not waiting to see.
> 
> I honestly do not think he's looking for physical affairs. He wants friendship. What's sad is that if he had acted differently, friendships with women might have been possible. I always thought I would be supportive of opposite sex friendships. But he behaved in a way that was provocative and evasive and then got mad at me for being suspicious. Now I am not okay with such friendships.


Again, cheating is cheating. He is purposely seeking WOMEN. Not men. If he was really looking for friendship as you claim, it would not be with women. He seeks them out because he gets off on the feeling of being close with a woman who ISNT YOU. How can you not see the seriousness of this, and how this is REAL, ACTUAL CHEATING?




cvd said:


> Is this grounds to divorce someone? Maybe for some it is. I'm just not at that place yet. Perhaps for people reading my posts it appears that I have not made any progress. But I think I have. I am stating my boundaries very clearly. Regarding my leaving as an "extended vacation"...I'll admit that's my way of handling what for me is a very stressful idea...the idea of leaving if the line is crossed.


Hell yes it is grounds for divorce. You may be STATING boundaries, but they mean nothing because you do not follow through...AND... the ONLY boundary that will have any chance of working is that you will leave the marriage should any more "friendships" happen. PERIOD. Nothing else has any consequence, its just you blowing smoke.


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## turnera

If he wasn't thinking of you - after you told him to STOP - then shame on him!

What does that tell you? It tells ME he has NO FEAR you will ever leave him and thus he doesn't HAVE to think of you because...well, why should he? You complain, you moan, you set boundaries you have no intention of holding, you've never given any reason for him to be afraid because you never enact any consequences. And you wonder why he never changes.


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## AliceA

cvd said:


> Did he consciously realize what he was doing when he asked his female work associate out to breakfast after talking about her being "all alone"...that he was repeating his pattern of befriending a needy single woman and then acting without thinking it might hurt me? No - I don't think he was thinking of me at all. He was only thinking of his own emotional needs and of being "supportive" to someone he thought was in need. It only dawned on him at the last minute to include me. Was this a sincere desire to include me? He swears it was but my gut says it was an unconscious desire to have time with this woman alone because he knew I had to work.


You are right there. Of course, you weren't going to be able to go, and he knew it. He was trying to slide it by you as if it was all about him wanting to "support" a person "in need". Making sure to do so when you weren't around as if you'd want to be anyway (honestly, I'd rather swim with sharks than watch my husband acting out his KISA fantasies on other women). He's a selfish pig and all he cares about is getting his emotional fix from any woman he can find who appears vulnerable.

I think you know what sort of person you married and so you put up with it. It's the same as if you buy the cheap computer and it's slow, but you know it's slow because you opted to buy something cheap, so you just live with it. You get what you pay for, or in your case, you get what you settle for.


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## cvd

What is "KISA"? 

I agree that what my husband has been doing is cheating...emotional cheating. And I would have to agree that it is as harmful as physical cheating. So - yes...if he has any contact or sets up anything with any woman with the intent of befriending her, we will be done. Because obviously he has no desire to change. I told him this loud and clear that this boundary applies to any women (single, married, old girlfriend, old friend, anyone). I made it very clear following this last event.

Everything everyone here has been posting is hard for me to read, even harder to accept but I know that it is the truth. 

What is most difficult is realizing that even while my husband was acting better towards me (following the melt-downs this past year over PV) and saying he was trying to be a better husband, he was also setting into motion a friendship with this work colleague and trying to slide it by me.

What I grapple with is how can a guy who works hard, is financially responsible, tells me he loves me, believes in God, and espouses doing the right thing...how can such a supposedly upright man also make it okay inside himself to think there is nothing wrong with spending time with an old girlfriend, an old fiance, and a single woman from work...even when he knows it hurts me?

And yes --- I know it is because I haven't effectively followed through with consequences. 

Although, in fairness to myself before this past year what we'd had was a verbal agreement...we both agreed at the beginning of our marriage there would be no contact with old love interests...but we didn't set any consequences. He restarted a friendship with SC who he knew in college. I demanded he end the friendship after he was spending too much time with her. He said she'd only been a friend but I found out this past year they'd gone out (he lied about what they were). I demanded he end that friendship. He broke our original agreement when he restarted the friendship with SC and also when he encouraged more contact with his old girlfriend (PV) last year. I demanded no more contact.

It was after posting here last year and getting a better understanding, that I added the consequence part. However, as I shared above, it was specifically if he had any further contact with SC or PV. I didn't generalize it to all single women. Although as someone shared above...he should have been able to generalize this but obviously didn't for whatever reason. 

So now I have made it abundantly clear. 

One thing I did not share was that a couple of day after the thing with JO, his work colleague, I got very sick with shingles. Unbelievable pain. I partly attribute getting shingles to my body breaking down over what I felt was a "here we go again" gut response and having to muster up defenses that were hardly rebuilt from this past year of emotional turmoil.

However, I did muster up defenses and I did tell him in no uncertain terms the consequences. And I did so again a couple of weeks after I started to feel better. I told him no more or we are done. I told him it was in his hands to change or not.

Has anyone here been through this kind of stuff and stayed together as a couple? My feeling sometimes is that everyone has divorced.


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## turnera

There are other consequences you can give other than just divorcing or moving out. You may have to get creative, but they could be things like you moving out of the bedroom, you giving no sex for six months, him having to wash his own clothes...whatever it takes for you to reclaim your self respect. The whole point is for you to stop the torture, like if he contacts another woman...what would it take for you to be ok with yourself?

But honestly, the only thing that even has a chance at making HIM change is you removing yourself from his vicinity...i.e. teach him to respect you for once.


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## AliceA

cvd said:


> What is "KISA"?
> 
> Has anyone here been through this kind of stuff and stayed together as a couple? My feeling sometimes is that everyone has divorced.


Knight in Shining Armor

I think many people have probably stayed together. The pain of living with someone who hurts you is often perceived as easier due to the fear of the unknown.

There was a point early on in my marriage where DH started up a friendly conversation through messenger with a woman, while he was drunk. It had some innuendo that I interpreted as flirting. He didn't try to hide it, he thought there was nothing 'wrong' with it. If I hadn't of thought anything of it either, then technically it would've been fine. The fact was if I did exactly the same thing, he wouldn't have thought it was fine, but because he knew he didn't have any intention (at that time) of cheating, he saw it as innocent.

The difference there was our point of view. I saw that innocent actions can lead a person to a place they hadn't intended to go (this is of course easier to see when you're not in the situation), but they end up there because of those actions. For DH it only required someone pointing that out for him to reflect on it and come to the same conclusions.

What your husband refuses to see is the road ahead. His gaze is firmly set on his feet and he seems incapable of learning from past mistakes. If you've lived with someone like this for a long time, you're aware of their failings and have accepted them. In part I think people accept some responsibility for the end results of that choice, which is why they stay initially, after that they stay because of HOPE; hope that their spouse can CHANGE.

You are optimistic that he can change because that's easier than accepting that he can't and feeling like you wasted X number of years with this person. I think what you really need to do is some soul searching, have a serious reality check and question whether your hope is based on any real evidence that it is possible for him to do this. I think this last episode shows clearly that he is incapable of change, not because of what he did but because of his ATTITUDE after you pointed out the path ahead AGAIN. He refused to see it, he stubbornly kept looking at his feet and you KNOW he just doesn't get it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Believing in God means little in these types of affairs because we are all imperfect sinners

Go read about the rise and fall of King David. Your husband is neither unique nor is he doing something different while being a follower of God.


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## cvd

breeze said:


> I think this last episode shows clearly that he is incapable of change, not because of what he did but because of his ATTITUDE after you pointed out the path ahead AGAIN. He refused to see it, he stubbornly kept looking at his feet and you KNOW he just doesn't get it.


Yes - it is his attitude afterwards that has bothered me the most. His total denial of doing anything wrong, of refusing to see that his actions are a set-up for further involvement, of blaming and resenting me for setting boundaries...basically refusing to take any responsibility. His main complaint is that I get upset about this at all --- he calls it "outbursts". 

I think you are correct about his inability or refusal to look at where his behavior may lead him. Perhaps this is also the attraction of having these friendships...they seem safe but also exciting because who knows where they might lead? Kind of like watching porn...safe...gives a thrill...no commitment...unless you get hooked on it. Which may be why he can't admit that having single women friends is not a good thing to do. The reality is that he is leading on other women. I've told him that SC, PV and JO all think he must be interested in them because he is so friendly...unless he sets boundaries they don't know what it is he really wants. And the truth is I believe he has not told any of them that he cannot be in contact anymore. SC he just stopped contacting. PV was told he can't do emails anymore. JO has not been told anything. 

I think that if he were really thinking of changing this behavior he would voluntarily offer to tell these women he was not contacting them anymore and not to contact him. I have asked him to do this but he says nothing...just gets upset.


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## cvd

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Believing in God means little in these types of affairs because we are all imperfect sinners
> 
> Go read about the rise and fall of King David. Your husband is neither unique nor is he doing something different while being a follower of God.


Yes - I've thought about that. Part of my "hope" has been that being a Christian would help him to see his behavior better. But I know in reality that emotions and desires can override morals and values. It is age old. Yet I find myself clinging to this hope...


----------



## lifeistooshort

OP, you continue to bury your head in the sand and make excuses.

You only specified particular women, you didn't make yourself clear, he's a Christian, etc.

Seriously? Think about how this sounds.

My dad, who spoke fluent Yiddish, used to call stuff like this "little dootsie games".

I never knew if he was speaking actual Yiddish or making things up so I don't know if that's a real Yiddish phrase, but it works. 

Get your head out of the sand and quit making ridiculous excuses..... you are clearly smarter than that. 

You've got a guy that needs a lot of female attention and likes save women. Different women. This is more important to him then you. 

Maybe if you actually kicked him out he'd reconsider, but as long as he can keep you around he will choose to feed his ego. 

Bullsh!t yourself all you want, but this is what you're working with. 

I'm sorry if that's harsh, buy this is what you will deal with if you remain with him. 

Is whatever else you get from him worth it? That answer may be yes and that's certainly your right to make that decision. 

Just own it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

cvd, I forget: Have you read Codependent No More?


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## AliceA

cvd said:


> Yes - it is his attitude afterwards that has bothered me the most. His total denial of doing anything wrong, of refusing to see that his actions are a set-up for further involvement, of blaming and resenting me for setting boundaries...basically refusing to take any responsibility. His main complaint is that I get upset about this at all --- he calls it "outbursts".


This is what you need to base your decision to stay or go on. Don't wait for another heart break. Start being proactive in determining how your life goes, instead of sitting back and being a victim of it.


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## cvd

I'm doing a lot of thinking right now...about everything. I think so much of this is a mindset. If I look at this problem from the perspective of responding to individual events I'll never see any change...because each time something happens it is new and different and I'm scrambling to apply new boundaries to new situations. It will never end. I've tried this and it doesn't work. I've tried to figure out just the right thing to say, just the right boundary, whatever I can think of to make my husband change. 

Heck --- I'm even in the mindset that if I leave, he will change...that somehow this action will wake him up and he will all of a sudden realize how much his behavior hurts me!

What if instead I change my own mindset...change me...and wake up each morning with a promise to myself that I will only be around people that don't hurt me? I will only be around people that treat me respectfully regardless of what is happening. I certainly do that with other people...I think before acting. It takes an awful lot for me to treat someone disrespectfully and that has only happened when I have been pushed beyond my limit. But even then I am ashamed and apologize and make amends. 

So instead of focusing on my husband, I'm will change and focus on me. I will be selfish. This is a huge change for me. I felt a little piece of this mindset beginning when my husband blew up at me and threatened to leave last year because I was upset over the emails with PV. In that instant I felt something change inside of me...it was a breaking of some kind of bond and it caused me to start doing some things very differently. I have now rekindled long dormant personal pursuits (such as playing music, etc.). I've been thinking more about me. But I was still in the mindset of wanting him to change. 

I have always thought it is important to not be selfish but instead to sacrifice for family. I still think it is important to focus on family but not at the expense of myself. Am I finally coming to terms with what this actually means? 

So each day, each second, I stand alone. If my husband treats me well in all things then I will be with him. If he doesn't, then I won't. And I don't need to tell him about how I've changed my mindset because all that matters is that I am treated well...period. 

I came into this marriage from a physically and emotionally abusive first marriage and an upbringing with alcoholic very self-centered parents. We were upper middle class --- everything looked right on the outside but a lot happened behind closed doors that was highly dysfunctional. I really thought I had it figured out but blindly went into my first marriage at a very young age thinking that I could change my husband into someone responsible. Not. And then went into my second marriage with high hopes that it would be different because my new husband was so much more responsible and nicer. I overlooked lots of little rude things in my attempt to not rock the boat. I was dishonest to myself...if that makes sense. I allowed myself to be a doormat on too many things.


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## turnera

Like I said, have you read Codependent No More? Everything you're describing is in there.

And reread your last post. Look at how many times you talk about 'changing' him into someone suitable for you. Think about it.

And find some more articles about boundaries and consequences. You still have it all wrong.


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## AliceA

I think CVD is on the right path. When you are sure about who you are and what you want, boundaries generally don't need to be created and enforced, they simply exist. It helps to have thought about it to some extent and to have discussed it with your partner, but when both people are on the same wavelength, it just works. I don't think she had any natural boundaries in place because she was too focused on pleasing the people around her in order to keep them in her life. Now she's looking inward to see what she wants and how she wants her life to go. This is a good first step.


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## MattMatt

lifeistooshort said:


> OP, you continue to bury your head in the sand and make excuses.
> 
> You only specified particular women, you didn't make yourself clear, he's a Christian, etc.
> 
> Seriously? Think about how this sounds.
> 
> My dad, who spoke fluent Yiddish, used to call stuff like this "little dootsie games".
> 
> I never knew if he was speaking actual Yiddish or making things up so I don't know if that's a real Yiddish phrase, but it works.
> 
> Get your head out of the sand and quit making ridiculous excuses..... you are clearly smarter than that.
> 
> You've got a guy that needs a lot of female attention and likes save women. Different women. This is more important to him then you.
> 
> Maybe if you actually kicked him out he'd reconsider, but as long as he can keep you around he will choose to feed his ego.
> 
> Bullsh!t yourself all you want, but this is what you're working with.
> 
> I'm sorry if that's harsh, buy this is what you will deal with if you remain with him.
> 
> Is whatever else you get from him worth it? That answer may be yes and that's certainly your right to make that decision.
> 
> Just own it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Dootsie" means childish. Apparently it originates in Northern Ireland.


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## cvd

turnera said:


> Like I said, have you read Codependent No More? Everything you're describing is in there.
> 
> And reread your last post. Look at how many times you talk about 'changing' him into someone suitable for you. Think about it. And find some more articles about boundaries and consequences. You still have it all wrong.


I will read Codependent No More. I'm aware of the concept and the ways I've been codependent. I always thought of it in terms of being codependent to people who are abusing substances...specifically to my parents' alcoholism and my first husband's substance abuse. I thought by working through issues from growing up and then ones in my first marriage that I was on top of it. I admit that a big piece of my "working through" things was leaving home and then divorcing my first husband. I tried to get them to change but ultimately had to leave them. I thought I had taken care of the problem by leaving them. 

What I did not realize then was that I carry within me a way of thinking that I've been applying to my whole life. It doesn't matter if I leave or divorce people if I don't figure out how this works within me. 

My second husband does not have issues with substance abuse or irresponsibility. I thought I was past the problems of codependency. I am only now beginning to deeply understand that they apply to all aspects of relationships with people. This includes my reaction to my husband's friendships with single women...which has an addictive quality because he continued doing it even through it was negatively affecting me. 

I've already set a new boundary and consequence with my husband --- I told him no women friends at all or I will leave you. This may sound harsh but being looser about it didn't work...he has shown he acts first and then talks with me after the fact. 

What I am trying to say is that I am taking on a different mindset in addition to setting boundaries and consequences. 

I am changing something within me and that is far more important to me. It is that I will not be around people that hurt me. This is in reference to big things like betrayal or abuse or disloyalty or lying, etc. Smaller things I will negotiate boundaries and consequences for but with the big things there is no negotiation. This is what I am changing. I am no longer going to waste my precious time on this earth trying to change people. If smaller hurts become chronic or a big hurt happens I am under no obligation to try to "work it out". I always thought that with family you try to work things out no matter what. Now I no longer think that.

I can't adequately put into words the change I feel within me. It feels empowering. It feels like being set free from a paradigm I thought was the right thing to do...sacrificing for family...sacrificing to keep peace within family, etc. There is sacrifice that happens in family life and sometimes it is good but it is not about sacrificing one's self-respect and well-being and that is what I have allowed to happen.

If I embrace and put my self-respect first in all relationships and at all levels then I think that would stop the enabling of someone else or the support of abusive behaviors...regardless of how they manifest. 

My husband selfishly did hurtful things over and over again without thinking of me. I swallowed the deep hurt I felt and focused on trying to change him. I said things differently, set new boundaries, new consequences, etc. 

What if instead I focused on myself...on my level of hurt and did what needed to be done to heal and protect myself? I think that is a powerfully different way of reacting. It may even be a more powerful agent of change...because it is more truthful than focusing on someone else. It is being true to one's own self. It is more honest and mature I think.


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## lucy999

cvd said:


> My husband selfishly did hurtful things over and over again without thinking of me. I swallowed the deep hurt I felt and focused on trying to change him. I said things differently, set new boundaries, new consequences, etc.
> 
> What if instead I focused on myself...on my level of hurt and did what needed to be done to heal and protect myself?


I applaud you for doing some really deep thinking. Yes. Focus on yourself. WITHOUT HIM. I struggle to think you can heal and protect yourself while he's still your husband.

I've read this thread and the whole time I'm thinking, "Man, he sounds just like my ex-BF." He would constantly say to me, "Well, you said I couldn't do XYZ, but you NEVER said I couldn't do ABC." It was crazy-making. He kept wiggling out of things by using this method. Okay, so I'd make new rules. I'd try the soft approach. Nothing. I'd try yelling and screaming and crying. Nothing. I'd try the silent treatment. Nothing. I told him he'd make a great lawyer because he was always looking for loopholes in my boundaries and conditions for a good relationship (ours didn't deal with cheating; it dealt with financial infidelity and physical and verbal abuse).

Aren't you exhausted? You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. 

He just wants to cake-eat. And he's being a baby b*tch because OH THE HORROR you won't let him.

He won't change and you can't change him. Accept that fact and go from there.


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## cvd

I am exhausted. I'm reading Codependent No More. It is hard to read because it overwhelming applies to me. I also re-read everything written here. Months ago I posted that if my husband disrespected me again I would leave. Well he did and I didn't. The thing with FO (trying to slide by me the breakfast date and then getting huffy when I pointed it out) happened and all I did was my usual lecturing and later saying if he disrespected me again I was leaving. 

Yeah --- I'm full of crap. I forget consequences I've already set and I forget that I already said I'd leave if he disrespected me again. So he's being all sweet again right now...leaving little "I love you" notes and giving hugs. The cycle continues...

I'm feeling numb...and then guilty because I feel numb...and then scared because if I don't respond to his overtures enthusiastically then he'll think I don't care and then he'll blame me for not caring and what if it becomes a downward cycle, etc.? 

See what I'm doing??? I'm still all obsessed with him and what he's thinking!!! It's so hard to stay in my own head, with my own feelings and just worrying about myself if I worry about anyone at all.

I'm to the part in Codependent No More where it talks about detaching. I'm trying to do this...without much success! I'm writing everything down here so that I have a record of what I'm doing and how I am feeling...to maybe help keep myself accountable. I've been so long in a mindset of thinking about others that I find it really hard to stay in my own head. It's scary.


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## lucy999

cvd said:


> I am exhausted. I'm reading Codependent No More. It is hard to read because it overwhelming applies to me. I also re-read everything written here. Months ago I posted that if my husband disrespected me again I would leave. Well he did and I didn't. The thing with FO (trying to slide by me the breakfast date and then getting huffy when I pointed it out) happened and all I did was my usual lecturing and later saying if he disrespected me again I was leaving.
> 
> Yeah --- I'm full of ****. That's how I feel right now. Pretty down and unable to feel much of anything.
> 
> He's being all sweet right now. Leaving little "I love you" notes and giving hugs. And I feel like ****. I don't feel good.
> 
> I'm to the part in Codependent No More where it talks about detaching. I'm trying to do this. I'm writing everything down here so that I have a record of how I am feeling. I've been so long in a mindset of thinking about others that I find it really hard to stay in my own head. It's scary.


It is scary. But you're doing the hard work. Again, I applaud you for that.

One front in front of the other. I hope you know we are here to support you.


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## cvd

Thanks for the support. I'm trying. Something's happening deep inside me. I'll stick with it but it's hard. I'm really tired. No appetite. And I'm getting these weird canker sores. I'm trying to stay positive and eat well despite this. Of all things, my little dog helps. She curls up on my lap and gives me love despite how I feel.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

cvd said:


> I'm to the part in Codependent No More where it talks about detaching. I'm trying to do this...without much success! I'm writing everything down here so that I have a record of what I'm doing and how I am feeling...to maybe help keep myself accountable. I've been so long in a mindset of thinking about others that I find it really hard to stay in my own head. It's scary.


Keep practicing! Little by little, it'll get easier for you. I just finished reading that book as well. I constantly have to keep reminding myself to detach and it is certainly hard. I'm not always successful, but I forgive myself and try again next time. The weekends are especially hard for me. :smile2:

Oh and, dogs give unconditionally love. Well, maybe in exchange for a couple of treats. I guess it's not so unconditional then. lol


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## turnera

cvd said:


> Thanks for the support. I'm trying. Something's happening deep inside me. I'll stick with it but it's hard. I'm really tired. No appetite. And I'm getting these weird canker sores. I'm trying to stay positive and eat well despite this. Of all things, my little dog helps. She curls up on my lap and gives me love despite how I feel.


Canker sores come from stress. You're under stress because you are now finally reading about your true situation and you are coming to understand that you have to become an adult, and start making adult choices. And that's scary! 

Hint: If you have low self esteem - and most codependents do - it terrifies you to think about standing up for yourself; even when you do, you're looking out of the corner of your eye to see HIS reaction. So you need to be working on your self esteem in IC. 

The lack of appetite, negativity, being tired...all signs of stress, depression, fear.

And as much as I know you love your dog, him soothing you is keeping you from making hard decisions. Adult decisions.

That said, I am THRILLED you are reading the book. You will probably read it 4 or 5 times and learn something new each time.

btw, as for knowing what you need to do but not remembering, my IC had me write out a list. That I kept in my wallet to read over and over. That list contained my 'rights.' Those things that, as a human, I had a right to expect in ANY relationship. She told me to make post-it notes of those rights and keep them on my mirror and read them out loud to myself every morning to affirm to myself. It really helped.


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## cvd

The book is very revealing and already causing me to do things differently --- even in everyday life. I'm starting to apply "loving detachment" not only with my husband but also with myself to help calm my inner turmoil so I can think clearly. I like how she writes and can easily see my situation in the concepts. 

Yes - I'm aware canker sores come from stress! It's a strong physical manifestation of inner stress so I want to get inflammation levels down. I'm concentrating on doing things for myself that feel good right now while also trying some methods from the book for changing my way of thinking.

I was a little put off by your comment about finally becoming an adult, Turnera. But I do want to work on being a more mature and effective adult. For sure my self-esteem has been in the toilet. I'm very aware of that. It has taken a beating through the years and I have not stuck up for myself in the way someone with good self-esteem would have. This is one of the areas I need to grow...developing my self-esteem in personal relationships. In my work and in other aspects of my life my self-esteem is actually very good. I have achieved a lot in life...many successes...but my personal life has been in turmoil...a pattern from childhood and my family of origin. No excuses but fact. So it is something I am working on now.


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## turnera

I didn't mean to insult you, and I wasn't saying you've been acting like a child. What I meant is that when it comes time to do things that aren't fun, that are scary, that suck - but you know you gotta do it, so you do what they call 'put on your big girl panties and get it done.' 

That's what I was referring to.


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## AliceA

I think the distinction between 'adult' and 'child' is used to our detriment. We get taller and we learn more about how to hide feelings/reactions that society has deemed as 'childish' but I think that that's all people really learn to do for most of their lives.

Once a person starts reaching out to find different solutions that they haven't yet tried due to lack of information and interest/initiative, then I think the real growth happens.


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## cvd

turnera said:


> ...so you do what they call 'put on your big girl panties and get it done.'


Yes - I agree. If I'm really honest with myself then I admit it's been far easier to put blame on others rather than look at my own thinking and behavior...easier to obsess over what others are doing wrong rather than my own stuff. This goes beyond setting boundaries and consequences --- I carry deep fears that get triggered when I stand up for myself and/or try to detach. Thus far detachment hasn't been too scary but I wonder how it will work and feel in those moments when someone is behaving badly and I feel hurt. My hope is that by practicing this in everyday life I might be able to remember it when emotions are high.


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## turnera

I've had many opportunities to practice it lately, but I still freeze in fear first. It's hard to rewire your brain.


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## cvd

I had an opportunity to put into practice detaching and keeping the focus on myself rather than worrying about my husband and it had an interesting outcome. 

We were sharing schedules for the upcoming months and my husband brought up things he wants to do including more business entertaining, monthly trips to his folks (motels and meals out), and going on a 5-10 day hunting trip with his guy friends (motels, food, gas, hunting supplies, etc). He also talked about working much later hours this month (till 8 pm most nights) to prepare for an upcoming meeting next month. We talked about all these things in depth and came to some reasonable compromises that were okay to me - he'd do his fair share of helping with entertaining, he'd do some of the trips to parents on his own to save costs, he'd do the hunting trip for 5 days instead of 10 to conserve funds and would be here in the mornings till noon if he worked late. All this was excellent and I felt like I'd held my own, stated my needs, etc. 

Then I mentioned wanting to do something alone with just him like a long weekend beach trip (we haven't done any trips alone in more years than I can remember - they're always with family or friends). His immediate reply was no - we can't afford it. He'd promised to take me on a beach trip way back in February as part of making up for messing up the 25th wedding anniversary. It made me angry that there was sufficient money for the things he wanted to do and I had given him enthusiastic responses for his requests but when I made a request there was suddenly no money and his response was so immediately negative. 

I decided (remembered) to detach and didn't say a word...didn't "take the bait" or respond. I let his words hang in the air. He finally said "Yeah we talked about that in February...sorry" I said "Okay - so when shall we do it?" He hemmed and hawed but wouldn't agree on any date. I said "let's just pick a date - we can change it later". He still wouldn't do it. I said in a calm voice "You were able to set up all these other dates and were okay about all these other expenses but you can't agree to this one?". He still had no reply. 

I was hurt by his callous attitude but decided not to react...to not engage and get all upset...to not allow him to rile me up. I went for a walk. When I returned he acted like nothing was amiss...like all was resolved. We went to church and to the store. We came home. At this point I could've brought it up again but instead decided to take care of myself. I told him I was going out for awhile (which meant he'd have to cook dinner on his own). I said in a friendly but detached manner that I'd see him later. I walked uptown to a creekside cafe and had myself a very nice glass of white wine (I rarely drink). I enjoyed the solitude...it helped ease my hurt feelings. My husband eventually showed up (small town - not hard to find someone). It was pleasant. We had a meal and talked about general stuff. We were talking about some philosophical stuff and I said that sometimes things just get f**cked up - meaning in life, in general. My husband jumped up and abruptly left. By now it was nighttime and I had to walk home in the dark (no cabs - small town). If he had not joined me I would have left when it was still light outside. I couldn't believe he left me there!

When I got home I asked him why he left me to walk home in the dark. He was all huffy saying I told him he was f*cked up. I clarified what I really said but he wouldn't hear me. This launched us into an interchange that lasted until early morning. I kept calm throughout the whole thing. He brought up my reactions to things that happened with the other women...how I overreacted, etc. 

At this point I was totally exhausted. I decided to turn the whole thing around and said that if it indeed was true that my perception of everything about these other women was wrong; that what they did and he did was actually okay; that my feelings of hurt and betrayal were totally invalid and I was totally overreacting to everything --- then I must be a real b*tch and an awful person to have treated him so badly all these years so maybe it was just time for me to leave. I quietly packed my bag and was almost out the door when his whole demeanor changed and he implored me to stay.

For the first time he opened up. He (finally) confessed he knew SC had been coming onto him all along. He said he was sorry he hurt me by doing nothing to stop it. He said he was wrong and very sorry to have put me through all that pain, especially the pain of dealing with his resentment over my setting boundaries. We talked through everything that happened with the two other women as well. He said he was very sorry for hurting me and would do whatever it takes to make it up to me. 

I know many of you told me repeatedly it would take me leaving to wake him up. However I have to say that it makes me sad to realize this is what it finally took.

I told him I will stay for now but that I am resolved to leave if necessary...I will not back down and I will follow my gut (as opposed to trying to justify and reason things out with him). I told him I hope to eventually forgive what has happened but only if he shows me he has really changed. I told him that from here on out I will not tolerate disrespectful behavior towards me...that our marriage comes first before anyone else. When we think about finances our marriage is to be the very first thing that is considered and that is before anyone else, including his parents and friends. I come first in his life and vice versa...no if's and's or but's.


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## 3Xnocharm

Good for you! You finally hit your limit with his crap. Telling you that you overreacted about OTHER WOMEN? Yeah, not cool, I don't blame you for finally having enough. And that whole deal with him getting what HE wants and leaving your needs out? Also not cool, kudos for calling him out. 

Glad to see your resolve!


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## turnera

Amazing work. So proud of you.

So what's the date for the trip?


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