# LD's speak up - What part does your spouse play in your lack of desire and response?



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I have read thread upon thread here and on other forums about the problems with LD spouses and how they hurt their spouses through sexual rejection.

What about the HD spouses. What part does the HD spouse play in the sexual clash with their LD spouse? Are HD's only victims or do they cause some of the problem too?

There are two sides to every story. I would love for LD's (or former LD's) to tell their side for once! How do HD's contribute to your lack of desire for them.

I am going to start with my side. First of all - the background. My husband and I were high school sweethearts. We married very young and were both virgins. Neither of us had ever been with anyone else sexually. We both grew up in a strict religious environment, where sex was only talked about in terms of thou shall nots. Sex was only allowed in marriage, and even masturbation was considered sinful. We had very little sexual education and instruction and were both very naïve when we married. We did not have any role models for good sexual relationships - because sex was not talked about within our community of friends and family. So we stayed naïve and uneducated about sexual matters for a good part of our marriage. 

I take full responsibility for my part of our sexual problems, and as the LD spouse - I definitely controlled the sex in our marriage. I decided when, how much sex, and what we could do and not do. 

However, my husband also played a part in our sexual dysfunction, especially in the early years when we probably could have turned things around if we had addressed the situation. But we didnt'!

Here are some of the things he did or did not do that I feel contributed to our sexual issues in those early years.

1. Lack of communication. He never talked to me about our sexual relationship. He did not ask me what I liked or what felt good. He just tried things and went with my reaction, sometimes even ignoring my reaction. He never expressed how my rejection hurt him, or how he felt when I rejected him. He never expressed what sex meant to him - what having sex with ME meant to him.

2. Most of the time, it felt like sex WAS ONLY about sex for him - not at all about a deep emotional connection. When I rejected him or pushed him away - he would become pesty - and would try over and over to get me to change my mind, groping, touching, sulking, etc. He often wanted sex when he knew I was exhausted, or upset, or even sick. When we did have sex - once sex was over - he quickly fell asleep and then the next morning, with maybe a quick peck on the cheek - he quickly moved on and away from me. 

3. He made no attempt to learn to be a better lover - to try to learn to make sex enjoyable for me too. Most of the time when we had sex (in the beginning when I did have a sex drive) it felt like he pursued me for his pleasure - and was not all that interested in mine. Foreplay was used to get me aroused - so I would be willing - and then he moved on to getting his satisfaction. (This was caused by inexperience and lack of knowledge - thinking intercourse felt just as good to me as it did to him. It did not!!)

4. Often - I got a lot of attention from him when he was horny - but once he was satisfied - the attention (both emotional and physical) seemed to quickly disappear and did not re-appear until he was horny again. 

5. He stopped taking care of his appearance. He later put on weight and did nothing about it - even when he knew it bothered me. 

There was more - but that is enough for now. I am not trying to paint my husband as a terrible person. He is not - he is a great guy. Successful marriages require the work of both partners - and both partners usually contribute to problems in the relationship. 

We hear over and over what the LD spouse does - its time to focus a little on what the HD spouse does to contribute to the HD/LD clash in their marriage. 

Please stay focused on the topic - and do not crucify anyone for sharing their experiences and thoughts. 

HD's - feel free to contribute - but only by asking questions to understand more or by telling us ways you contributed to your LD spouses lack of sexual interest. If you want to gripe or complain about your LD spouse - there are many other threads for which you can to do that.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

I am HD.
Thank you for that list!
It's interesting to me that those are exactly the things I have tried to change about myself and it has indeed helped us. Not only is the frequency up, but the quality is WAY up, which is most important to me.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening mary35
If he had done all the right things, do you think that would have changed your level of desire for him? 

I think LD covers a lot of range. Some people do not desire their partners because of the partner's actions or inactions. Others would not desire anyone. 

In direct answer to your question, I think my wife feels pressured for more sex, and more variety when we have sex. She may well feel it is all I care about and that everything I do for her is an attempt to get sex.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> 1. Lack of communication. He never talked to me about our sexual relationship. He did not ask me what I liked or what felt good. He just tried things and went with my reaction, sometimes even ignoring my reaction. He never expressed how my rejection hurt him, or how he felt when I rejected him. He never expressed what sex meant to him - what having sex with ME meant to him.


So how did you draw him out? I have this problem but I can't seem to draw my partner out to talk with me about what she likes or doesn't like.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> I have read thread upon thread here and on other forums about the problems with LD spouses and how they hurt their spouses through sexual rejection.
> 
> What about the HD spouses. What part does the HD spouse play in the sexual clash with their LD spouse? Are HD's only victims or do they cause some of the problem too?
> 
> ...


1. He never talked to you about your sex life, but did you ever talk to him? He never asked you what you liked, but did you tell him? Did you ever ask what he liked? You both started out at the same experience level, correct? So, how did you figure out what he liked and what he didn't?

2. This is my LD wife to a T. Every single time. She doesn't want to talk after, she doesn't want to do anything but curl up in my arm and fall asleep. Every single time.

3. Again, how did you guys learn about each other? How did you figure out what he likes and doesn't like....how did you learn? You both started out inexperienced, nobody is born with this knowledge. As weird as it may seem, the 'control panel' for a guy is like the dash of a 64 Ford, while the 'control panel' for a woman can seem like the Space Shuttle sometimes.

4. I won't hit on because it is outside of my wheelhouse, so to speak.

5. I will very briefly touch on. My wife, when she was in high school, was a cheer leader. Very hot. Still hot in college, and while she had gained some weight when we married, she wasn't huge. Today I have to force her to take care of her blood pressure, she has drastically increased in weight, and just doesn't seem to care about taking care of herself in any way but the most basic anymore. No exercise. She will start for a few days, but then quits. If I say anything, I feel like I am being shallow, so I don't (other than the health aspects, like the BP). It has never reduced my sexual desire for her, because my connection to her (even through everything else) is emotional at its base. Would I like her to put in the effort to be like she was in high school/college. Hell yes. But, even if she never got there, it is the effort I would appreciate.

***As a guy, I know if I told my wife how much her rejection of me sexually hurt me, I always felt that she would just think I was being manipulative, needy, or even worse, that I was some kind of 'sex addict'. Recently we have been fighting, and sex has come up (shocking, huh). She has indeed called me a sex addict. While in the HD/LD terms as used here I guess I would be the HD of the two of us, in the reality of LD/ND (normal drive)/HD, I would say I am somewhere on the high side of normal really.

For reference, I was a virgin when we married (well, when we got together....my wife is my only partner). She had about 10 other partners. For her to call me a 'sex addict' hurts. I am really very vanilla in the grand scheme of things, and there are lots of other aspects that feed into our specific problems, but those are some answers to your questions.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Invoking Sanctuary*

Overall I love TAM.

That said, if we treated any 'protected' minority as badly as we typically treat LD posters, we'd be in violation of some federal law or other. 
*
Therefore I am invoking sanctuary on this thread for LD posters. Which means I will immediately ask hostile posters to stop posting on the thread. *

LD contributors contain the rarest and most valuable information on TAM and yet they are attacked so quickly and consistently that most of them leave the site pretty quickly. 

That result leaves a huge informational gap. So let's try to treat the posters here as valuable sources of information, instead of acting like they are the enemy. 



mary35 said:


> I have read thread upon thread here and on other forums about the problems with LD spouses and how they hurt their spouses through sexual rejection.
> 
> What about the HD spouses. What part does the HD spouse play in the sexual clash with their LD spouse? Are HD's only victims or do they cause some of the problem too?
> 
> ...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Bravo!

There is a lot of discussion on these boards right now about this, and the LD legions are starting to awaken and assert themselves!

We have heard much over and over about the HD's side, now it's youse guys time.

Well, 2.1/2 cents is this; you are absolutely correct in that a nagging, grabbing, pouting, insensitive, or uninquisitive spouse can contribute greatly to LD. They can be very much responsible.

I might add though that many of the (mostly dudes, but a fair amount of women) have been by all appearances good spouses and are meanly rejected by their lovers. They ARE victims in my view.

But certainly not any where near all. I won't speak to these type.

I will say that I think that at least for men, it is extremely important for men to have had good role male role models. I can't over emphasize this. In my opinion, good male role models make up for a multitude of other deficiencies (like inexperience, naivety,
physical attributes). Many good things will flow from having good male role models in how men treat women.

My own Dad never taught me a thing about the birds and the bees. 
but he taught me a ton how to treat women. He put my mom on a pedestal in the old school way. He treated her like the only woman in the world. I saw this. I was a dumb, naive dude who didn't hardly know a damned thing. But when I was with my first woman, I knew what to do and that was treat her like a goddess.

Haven't had any troubles since, at least with that stuff.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

I only ever had one LD partner, and it would be her upbringing.

She was a college student and a Sunday school teacher. She only has sex when she is really horny, but then would feel guilt afterwards for not waiting till marriage. That relationship only lasted three months.

I heard she got married, and I heard there are issues already. She is 26, and has been married for one year. We are casual friends on facebook, but I lost all attraction for her. After sex, she would just push me away, feel guilty. Keep in mind, she believes having an erotic dream is a sin.

When I broke up with her, I no longer had any romantic interest, and saw her more like a sister, or a family friend. She is cute and all, a girl next door type. Smart, just finish medical school.

I understand that the brain is the most powerful sex organ, and since females sex drives are more complicated, it requires more stimulation. I can have sex if I am angry, stressed, and sex would put me in a better mood afterwards. I understand mood and environment play a huge role, plus having a good personal relationship can keep those magical feelings going.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

And the LD wife replied to my asking anything about sex, "I don't feel comfortable talking about that". 

I think that the problem here has been the lack of communication caused by the ridiculous idea that if we don't talk about sex, kids will miraculously figure it out on their own. I think relationship education should be taught. Sex education is only covered in prevent these pregnancies and diseases context. But the point here is that mary25 and her husband did not have the tools to create a healthy relationship and therefore they created a barely surviving relationship. I see a lot of the same problems in my relationship, even though it has miraculously hung in there past the 25 year mark. When I look at my children's relationships, I don't think I did much better than my parents did.
MN


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

1. Lack of communication. He never talked to me about our sexual relationship.
Not true in my first marriage to an LD wife. We did discuss sex, and I did express how rejection hurt me, etc., as well as how important she was to me. It was never an issue in subsequent relationships.

2. Most of the time, it felt like sex WAS ONLY about sex for him - not at all about a deep emotional connection. 
Not true for me. It was mostly about the emotional connection, and I tried to make that happen outside the bedroom as well. She wasn't interested. It wasn't never an issue in subsequent relationships

3. He made no attempt to learn to be a better lover - to try to learn to make sex enjoyable for me too. 
Did not apply. The book "The Joy of Sex" came out around the time I was first married, and I read it and applied it. She would not. We both had some prior experience, so we weren't clueless. Almost every lover since has told me how good I am, and I know my ex did enjoy it a lot - when she would consent to having sex.

4. Often - I got a lot of attention from him when he was horny - but once he was satisfied - the attention (both emotional and physical) seemed to quickly disappear and did not re-appear until he was horny again. 
See 2. However, as time went on without reciprocation or affection, I began to give up trying. It was never an issue in subsequent relationships. I even did my fair share of housework and child care.

5. He stopped taking care of his appearance. He later put on weight and did nothing about it - even when he knew it bothered me. 
Never an issue for me, and never an issue in later relationships either.

I believe my ex was truly LD, and really had no interest in sex beyond once or twice a month in a good month. Her sexuality plummeted immediately after we got married, so it seemed like bait and switch tactics to secure a husband. She came from a very religious family, but she was agnostic - I think the attitudes towards sex remained, however. Or perhaps she never really was into me but I checked all the boxes for a desirable spouse, and once she had me she didn't need to do much to keep me. She wouldn't or couldn't say what the issues were, if there were any other than those used as excuses. Sadly for me, she was right as I stayed for a long time, as I was always hopeful that things could at least improve to the level that existed before we married. It never mattered what I did or did not do, or if I did what she asked, or focused on myself. Eventually, I stopped trying, and she liked that. I still wasn't happy or able to let go of my needs and desires, so I divorced her once I really got it that nothing would change and I could do nothing to cause change.

For many years, I was pretty much an ideal husband. I am now according to my wife, and have a fantastic marriage. My wife has nothing but good things to say about me in that regard. As I'm really no different now (same behaviors, attitudes, beliefs) than I was in my first marriage, I know I wasn't the problem. And in MC and IC during my first marriage, the various therapists essentially confirmed this view.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

I always feel kind of bad talking about stuff like this, because I AM the LD spouse... I always kind of assume that I just need to suck it up and deal with it because I'm the problem here.

A very big frustration for me is that I do have a responsive desire, but it's a very slow burn. Sex is more enjoyable for me if I get to experience the slow build up, but my SO doesn't really get that. There's been progress made through lots of communication, but his version of foreplay is really just bumping me with an erection or grabbing my boobs and expecting it to be go time. I really enjoy making out with him, touching his skin, etc. before the main act, and as much as I try to communicate this to him, he always rushes it.

So it sort of leads into OP's point #2... I have issues connecting sex with love anyway, and because it sometimes seems like he's just focusing on what HE wants, not always what would be enjoyable for both of us, it can make me feel really unloved and kind of used instead of any of the positive feelings associated with sex.

Another killer for me in the first year or so was a seeming lack of satisfaction. In the beginning of our relationship, he wanted it up to three times a day, and it was not uncommon for him to masturbate after sex, even if the sex was really amazing. Or pester for sex shortly after said amazing sex. This has much improved through improved communication, but it was BRUTAL to me then. All I could hear was not "I'm not good enough" and "there's nothing I can do to please you", and it would cause me to shut down for weeks. 


Lastly, there's also this thing with his hair. It's a minor quibble, I guess, but it does kind of effect how much I initiate these days... He's been growing his hair out,and I hate it. It's been months and it's still not long enough to pull back. I'm not trying to 'punish' him by pulling back on initiating, ( I don't think our frequency has decreased that much at all really), I just don't find it in any way attractive. When I mention it to him, he doesn't care. Wants it long and that's just how it's going to be. 
Sorry, but... ew, lol.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

I will put myself in the LD category. It was not always the case. But over the years my ex's mental issues crept into every aspect of our lives, often before I was aware of it. He became verbally and emotionally abusive. He withdrew from any interaction with me and the children, other than verbal outbursts. All of this made it extremely difficult to maintain any sexual desire. 

He also suffered from ED brought on by mental and cardiac issues during the last few years of the marriage and I was blamed for that as well. His cardiologist prescribed viagra and he literally threw the bottle at me one night and told me that if I was any good, he wouldn't need it. Again, not exactly the type of behavior that encourages loving respectful feelings from one's spouse. 

I suppose I went into survival mode. I was quite literally afraid of his touch. I tried desperately to get him help, but there is only so much you can do with someone who refuses help. But if he were to come on TAM and discuss this issue, I feel quite confident that he would maintain he did everything right and I was simply LD.

Don't dismiss this as being off topic, or unrelated to OP's intent for this thread. For every action, there is most certainly a re-action. LD is my reaction.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Entirely,
Great post. 



QUOTE=EntirelyDifferent;12317626]I always feel kind of bad talking about stuff like this, because I AM the LD spouse... I always kind of assume that I just need to suck it up and deal with it because I'm the problem here.

A very big frustration for me is that I do have a responsive desire, but it's a very slow burn. Sex is more enjoyable for me if I get to experience the slow build up, but my SO doesn't really get that. There's been progress made through lots of communication, but his version of foreplay is really just bumping me with an erection or grabbing my boobs and expecting it to be go time. I really enjoy making out with him, touching his skin, etc. before the main act, and as much as I try to communicate this to him, he always rushes it.

So it sort of leads into OP's point #2... I have issues connecting sex with love anyway, and because it sometimes seems like he's just focusing on what HE wants, not always what would be enjoyable for both of us, it can make me feel really unloved and kind of used instead of any of the positive feelings associated with sex.

Another killer for me in the first year or so was a seeming lack of satisfaction. In the beginning of our relationship, he wanted it up to three times a day, and it was not uncommon for him to masturbate after sex, even if the sex was really amazing. Or pester for sex shortly after said amazing sex. This has much improved through improved communication, but it was BRUTAL to me then. All I could hear was not "I'm not good enough" and "there's nothing I can do to please you", and it would cause me to shut down for weeks. 


Lastly, there's also this thing with his hair. It's a minor quibble, I guess, but it does kind of effect how much I initiate these days... He's been growing his hair out,and I hate it. It's been months and it's still not long enough to pull back. I'm not trying to 'punish' him by pulling back on initiating, ( I don't think our frequency has decreased that much at all really), I just don't find it in any way attractive. When I mention it to him, he doesn't care. Wants it long and that's just how it's going to be. 
Sorry, but... ew, lol.[/QUOTE]


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Pluto2 said:


> I will put myself in the LD category. It was not always the case. But over the years my ex's mental issues crept into every aspect of our lives, often before I was aware of it. He became verbally and emotionally abusive. He withdrew from any interaction with me and the children, other than verbal outbursts. All of this made it extremely difficult to maintain any sexual desire.
> 
> He also suffered from ED brought on by mental and cardiac issues during the last few years of the marriage and I was blamed for that as well. His cardiologist prescribed viagra and he literally threw the bottle at me one night and told me that if I was any good, he wouldn't need it. Again, not exactly the type of behavior that encourages loving respectful feelings from one's spouse.
> 
> ...


wow. it absolutely IS on topic IMHO


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



EntirelyDifferent said:


> Lastly, there's also this thing with his hair. It's a minor quibble, I guess, but it does kind of effect how much I initiate these days... He's been growing his hair out,and I hate it. It's been months and it's still not long enough to pull back. I'm not trying to 'punish' him by pulling back on initiating, ( I don't think our frequency has decreased that much at all really), I just don't find it in any way attractive. When I mention it to him, he doesn't care. Wants it long and that's just how it's going to be.
> Sorry, but... ew, lol.


You MUST tell him EXACTLY how his hair makes you want him less, sexually speaking. 
Do not label it as a simple preference. You must tell him that his hair is a sexual turn off, specifically.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

I'd put myself in the "average" drive category these days. Formerly HD. Formerly VERY HD.

My drive seems to be steadily decreasing as a result of a couple of things--medication being one, but also a lack of communication and respect from my spouse.

It would be easy to blame it on being a reaction to her LD--which I certainly share some of the blame for. The more I examine my own drop in drive however--the more I believe it's just because I don't feel valued or respected by her. The last few times I initiated, I think I did it just because someone needed to--not because I really wanted to.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

to me so far the LD posters are describing narcissistic husbands.

I could see where narcissism would lead to LD.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Mary,

That's a terrific summary. 

I wrote a thread a few years ago about the path to sexlessness. In that thread I mentioned that it's toxic for an HD spouse to continue initiating as if everything is fine when their partner clearly no longer wants to connect. 

And that certain symptoms mean: STOP and repair don't keep grinding the gears....
- refusal to kiss
- asking you to hurry up and finish
- just lying there 





mary35 said:


> I have read thread upon thread here and on other forums about the problems with LD spouses and how they hurt their spouses through sexual rejection.
> 
> What about the HD spouses. What part does the HD spouse play in the sexual clash with their LD spouse? Are HD's only victims or do they cause some of the problem too?
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



jorgegene said:


> to me so far the LD posters are describing narcissistic husbands.
> 
> I could see where narcissism would lead to LD.


It seems to me that they are likely regular guys who don't know any better.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

QFT

80% ignorance 
20% insecurity (they don't seek out and/or respond well to honest feedback)

I've read posts on TAM by adult males that include the statement:

There's no such thing as bad sex

--------
I honestly cringe when I read that. It's such an appallingly ignorant statement. 





NobodySpecial said:


> It seems to me that they are likely regular guys who don't know any better.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> I have read thread upon thread here and on other forums about the problems with LD spouses and how they hurt their spouses through sexual rejection.
> 
> What about the HD spouses. What part does the HD spouse play in the sexual clash with their LD spouse? Are HD's only victims or do they cause some of the problem too?
> 
> ...


Mary35, if your husband changed everything that you listed above, do you think your sexual desire for him would change?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Mary, thank you for sharing. We HDs need to better understand our role in creating LD in our spouses. Thank you for providing some insight.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

As a frequent LD apologist, and now actually finding myself in this uncharted territory, maybe I should add a paragraph or two.

I married a near-virgin who is six sigma vanilla. If I was worth her time, I would wait for the ring. So I never learned the things about her sexuality that would have given me pause before we got married. 

She is not asexual. She enjoys sex about once every 7-10 days as long as it doesn't violate her strict rules about what constitutes loving sex in a married relationship. I played no part in any of this - it was baggage that came in to the relationship. My primary role in making this an issue was my disappointment. She has always felt inadequate in the bedroom. I pressed for change - usually not very hard, but her assessment that what she was willing to give would never be enough was basically accurate, and we both knew it. 

What I could have done better would have been to become educated early on this dynamic. I should have understood that change for her would be glacial, when it came at all. I should have known that pressing for what I wanted was never going to be productive, could only further estrange us in the bedroom, and as such was worse than a futile waste of time.

I didn't cause her sexual attitudes, but I might have helped make them largely immutable after the first 10 years. And looking back, it actually did get better, just at a pace that was hard to discern in real time.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

I'm the HD spouse and can think of a couple things that can lead to my husband being more LD. 

1) He has told me I pressure him too much, from the many talks we've had about sex. He is highly stressed from work and comes home to pressure from me. I have since backed off and done my best to suppress that desire, but it has been tough. It's hard to sit next to the man you want and keep your hands to yourself. I do my best anyways and always listen to how his day at work has been. Now that I have done that, my husband is now upset that I am not trying to get close to him. Although if I do touch him more, then it tends to get seen as pressure for sex, so I'm at a loss. 

2) I'll admit that I have let myself go a bit. I don't look the same as I used to. I'm still healthy at 5'5" and 121 pounds, but I do have a bit of a mommy pooch of a stomach(no more flat stomach, bigger thighs, etc). I'm not as in shape as I was before and pregnancy/breastfeeding has changed my body as well. I also used to dress more sexy, but stopped seeing the point when my husband had very little reaction to any of it. Why put on the lace undies, revealing tops, and so on for your spouse, when they won't say or do anything about it, so those actions stopped. The little/no reaction and rejection from sex has taken a big toll on my self-esteem. I know that can change his attraction to me.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening mary35
> If he had done all the right things, do you think that would have changed your level of desire for him? That is a good question. I would like to think so - but I can't really say for sure! Because of the strict religious upbringing, I had many faulty thinking patterns about sex - bascically that Good girl's don't enjoy sex too much. Perhaps had we addressed these issues and worked with a professional early on - the thinking pattern would not have caused me to turn my sexuality off - which is what I eventually did.
> 
> I think LD covers a lot of range. Some people do not desire their partners because of the partner's actions or inactions. Others would not desire anyone. I agree! And I believe the LD range is huge and multi dimensional.
> ...


 There were times I felt that no matter what I did or how often we had sex - it was never enough! And in many ways that was how he felt, I am sure.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



CopperTop said:


> So how did you draw him out? I have this problem but I can't seem to draw my partner out to talk with me about what she likes or doesn't like.


At least you are asking and trying to get her to talk. I can only imagine how frustrating that is for you - wanting to please her and make her feel good too - yet she will not communicate back with you.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> 1. He never talked to you about your sex life, but did you ever talk to him? He never asked you what you liked, but did you tell him? Did you ever ask what he liked? You both started out at the same experience level, correct? So, how did you figure out what he liked and what he didn't? No - I did not ask him what he liked. He pretty much lead the way when we were first married and did what I thought he liked - which was some touching, but mostly intercourse. He was not very adventourous back then. There were many times that I was left feeling somewhat frustrated. But I did not feel comfortable talking to him about sex - or showing him what felt good and apparently he was just as uncomfortable talking to me about it. So I would occasionally masturbate when he was not around. That led to feeling guilty. Sometimes I felt resentful after we had sex, when he was done and I was just starting to feel arroused. Sometimes I felt sex changed him, that he acted different during sex, that he looked at me as a sexual object. I did not like how he was during sex. Could this have been part of my "Good Girl" syndrome thinking? Probably! But I sometimes wonder if he had been a more generous lover - more concerned about my enjoyment - would things have been different. Maybe not! We both had a lot of growing up to do back then.
> 
> 
> 2. This is my LD wife to a T. Every single time. She doesn't want to talk after, she doesn't want to do anything but curl up in my arm and fall asleep. Every single time.
> ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Mr. Nail said:


> And the LD wife replied to my asking anything about sex, "I don't feel comfortable talking about that".
> 
> I think that the problem here has been the lack of communication caused by the ridiculous idea that if we don't talk about sex, kids will miraculously figure it out on their own. I think relationship education should be taught. Sex education is only covered in prevent these pregnancies and diseases context. But the point here is that mary25 and her husband did not have the tools to create a healthy relationship and therefore they created a barely surviving relationship. I see a lot of the same problems in my relationship, even though it has miraculously hung in there past the 25 year mark. When I look at my children's relationships, I don't think I did much better than my parents did.
> MN



You nailed it!! We absolultely did not have the tools necessary to create a healthy relationship. Lack of education about sex and about relationship skills played a big part in the mistakes both of us made during those early years. 

And we too did not do much better with our children. I am now trying to figure out how to help my young daughter - who is overwelmed with being a young mother - and I am seeing many signs that she is also struggling with the LD/HD issues in her marriage (her being the LD). 

So perhaps intense marital realtionship (including indepth sexual education) classes should be offered or even required before marriage! Perhaps attending these classes and having indepth conversations before marriage would help identify incompatible levels of sexual priority instead of discovering them after they are wed.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> 
> That's a terrific summary.
> 
> ...



:iagree:
This needs to be framed and placed in every house!!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening all
Along with other things, I'm interested in posts from what I will call "true LDs" - LDs that have not in any way been turned off by their partner's actions. Many LDs have been made more averse to sex by being pressured, poked, man (or woman)-handled etc. Sometimes these actions are very obvious, sometimes subtle. 

There is another subset (how rare I don't know) of LDs who do not seem to find fault with their partner's behavior but are LD anyway. This is what my wife claims (using different words).

Or - is there always a reason, but sometimes its difficult to share that reason with an intimate partner?

It seems an important distinction. In one case there is something the HD could do if they knew, and we wiling. In the other there is nothing - there is no exit to the maze.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> Mary35, if your husband changed everything that you listed above, do you think your sexual desire for him would change?


I don't know. I would like to think so...!

Did you ever try talking to him? Did you ever express what you like/didn't like? Communication is a 2 way street, so I'm curious if you tried to communicate as well.

No I did not! Clearly my list of things I did wrong -- is way longer than his. I created a lot of my own problems and take full repsonsibiltiy for my part. But this thread is not about the LD's part. It is about the HD's part.

Falling asleep shortly after sex for men is a normal biological response, which has to do with their hormone levels. I don't think you can fault him there. Can you think of why he pulled away like he did?

I agree. It is a normal response. As far as pulling away - I think he compartmentalized his life. We had sex - and then it was time to move on to schooling or work or kids. He wasn't pulling away from me so much as moving on to other things. I can see that now - but that is not what I felt back then. While I did try to talk to him about this behavior and how it made me feel - I am not sure he really understood how it made me feel. Again - lack of communication on both of our parts! 

Did you bring this up with him? No! In my mind back then - he should have noticed! (Yeah - yeah - dumb of me)

Do you think he lost respect for you? 
He would have been a saint if he did not lose some respect for me. I think in some ways - he turned to eating more and more as the sex decreased. I think my rejection made him feel less attractive - so why bother working on being attractive. 

I need to make it clear - I am NOT blaming my husband for our issues. The issues are mostly mine. But things he did - knowingly or not, intentionally or not, did affect me in a negative way. I am explaining - not blaming. The blame for the sexual dessert in my marriage goes on me. I created the dessert, not my husband! I did not do it knowingly, nor intentionally and I did not do it to punish my husband for the things he did or didn't do to me.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> And that certain symptoms mean: STOP and repair don't keep grinding the gears....
> - refusal to kiss
> - asking you to hurry up and finish
> - just lying there


In other words, STARFISH sex...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

The biggest turn off to me during my LD decade was my husband's inability to be happy. He wasn't happy with work, he didn't have hobbies, he didn't socialize with friends, he was always stressed out and didn't seem to enjoy much of anything. 

I thought he was depressed. He told me many times that he needed our marriage to be healthy before he could be happy in the way I wanted him to be happy. My rejoinder to that was, "I need you to be happy before I can be attracted to you."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Happy,

There is a massive amount of non verbal communication in any marriage. That's perfectly normal. 

What's the message I'm sending as the HD if I frequently initiate even though I am consistently getting hurry up and finish starfish sex with no kissing? 

I believe the message is utterly unmistakable:
- Sex is something I'm doing FOR me, TO you
- I enjoy it despite unmistakable signals that you DON'T enjoy it

Now - a one off - might just be a mistake borne from momentary desperation. I can be sympathetic to an HD doing that. But a pattern - means what it means. 






happy as a clam said:


> In other words, STARFISH sex...


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Thx for starting this discussion 

Firstly, I know it gets used a lot here but I personally don't find the HD and LD labels overly helpful. I am currently more HD than my H yet i would be hardly considered HD compared to the general standard here. On the other hand, H is a sex addict in long term recovery yet he is no sex fiend, at least at home. Another thing about this is that it hints at some kind if hard wiring, almost like a personality profile. There are many factors which can affect us over out lifetime. I would say that I use to be very sexual. But at this point, i am not, but that may change again.

Disclaimer aside...

I will speak from my experience in a past relationship. I was probably HD, at least a few times a week I was (willingly) up for it, but my partner at the time was more the "multiple times a day" type. 

I was young and naive and willing to please and do whatever and not really in touch with my own wants/needs. Plus he was really into porn and he got a lot of his ideas from that about what women SHOULD (apparently) want/need and how they should perform. It was a lot of pressure so I faked orgasms a lot of the time and pretended to get off on certain things that I didn't like.

But I felt that me going along with everything from the start set his expectation for the rest of the relationship.

The things he did that really were damaging... Just expecting it all the time, whenever he wanted and how he wanted, just for the sake. I woke up many times from my sleep to find him doing stuff to me while he masturbated and sometimes he was already inside me. When he touched me in an affectionate way, it was ALWAYS leading into something sexual and so he could get something. If I was accepting of the affection but didn't want him to get sexual when he started doing stuff, I was made to feel guilty because I was leaving him high and dry now. To be touched in only a sexual way or only with sexual motives can be really damaging. 

Intercourse itself... Well, I hated it because he would just get in a certain zone, it was almost like I was just an extension of himself, a masturbation aid or blow up doll. I may as well have been a corpse or not even there. He was fantasising about other people or watching porn or thinking about me doing other stuff with other people. The whole thing of him having sex with me when i was asleep (also known as rape) cemented this feeling, that it wasn't anything to do with being intimate with me, it didn't matter what my name is or that I was his gf or not, I was just a means. Intercourse was painful half the time, foreplay (post him being affectionate with a cause) was him spitting on his hand to get some lubrication happening so he could start the deed.

I broke up with him after four years. I wish I had left him sooner. You live and learn. After I left, I just felt like I needed a massive break from men and relationships and anything sexual. I had to take some time to find "me" again like my own personal space, manage my own time and money, do nice things with friends that didn't revolve around alcohol or meeting people/hooking up. 

The whole time I was with him, I was still a sexual person, but despite on the overdose of him, I still craved sex but with others. I think I craved intimacy and for a man to be present with me in that way. But after I left, the idea of being in a committed relationship ever again made me sick, in my mind it was like a trap, that someone else could own my body and have indiscriminate access to me regardless of what I wanted or needed. I am glad that I took time to heal though, and ended up married in the end!

If I had to pick between two extremes, I would pick an extreme LD husband. It's torture in a different way but I would rather never have sex again than be fawned over constantly like I was once 

I get that my example is a bit extreme. I am not painting all "HD" men or people in this way at all, so if you are HD, please don't think I am demonizing you here. Just sharing an experience I had.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

The single hottest thing about M2 is her playfulness.

Happiness is a prerequisite for playfulness. 

And playfulness is the act of sharing your happiness with another person.....




GettingIt said:


> The biggest turn off to me during my LD decade was my husband's inability to be happy. He wasn't happy with work, he didn't have hobbies, he didn't socialize with friends, he was always stressed out and didn't seem to enjoy much of anything.
> 
> I thought he was depressed. He told me many times that he needed our marriage to be healthy before he could be happy in the way I wanted him to be happy. My rejoinder to that was, "I need you to be happy before I can be attracted to you."


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> Happy,
> 
> There is a massive amount of non verbal communication in any marriage. That's perfectly normal.
> 
> ...


I'm so happy that this thread is free from the endless badgering of HDs, so here I go:

The reason why I quoted the above is to say that this is the major thing that grinds my gears about HDs. Is that they assume that sex is the only supreme vehicle to express love in a marriage. So they push, cajole, negotiate, beg and plead us to FEEL the same way they do. Yet, they didn't care to check in to see if we felt the same way before marriage, kids and a mortgage.

In other words , they entered into marriage with the same blinders that LDs entered marriage:

HD enters marriage with " after we get married, the sex will get better and better because if he or she loves me this is what they would naturally do"

LD enters marriage with "after we get married, the sex will probably decrease but we would have a deeper relationship where we can connect on so many other levels besides the physical. If he or she loves me this is what they will naturally do"

The LD feels that sex is not forever. Viagra and cialis is is extending what should naturally just fade with time. In other words we are chemically enhancing something that should be natural if it is indeed a natural thing that occurs for all time.

HDs say that touch is needed and necessary. But touch is just touch. LDs like to hold hands and hug, even kiss. But if every touch has to come with the caveat, " ok this means that the HD will want sex because they are SO FRUSTRATED..." Then the LD can do without that.

Because sex, to me as an LD, is something physical and fun. It is not essential to my emotional being. Howeve the HD may say, "well why don't you let us share this with someone who wants us?" 

Just like a person won't let their spouse engage in a emotional affair with someone else, an LD won't let their HD partner, who they know depends on sex for an emotional connection, connect with someone else sexually. Because it will lead to turmoil. Just look at how many ea's are posted about in the CWI threads, it leads to disaster.

Just my 2 LD cents....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good explanation, techmom.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> Happy,
> 
> There is a massive amount of non verbal communication in any marriage. That's perfectly normal.
> 
> ...


That is the message I heard - loud and clear - and it re-affirmed my belief that sex had nothing to do with love or emotional connection. And it confirmed in my faulty brain - that it was only about sexual gratification for him.

I can vividly remember thinking on many occasions while he did his thing - Why does he do this - he knows I don't want too? This isn't love! And when he was done - I would roll to my side of the bed, as far away as possible. 

I now know I caused him pain and suffering every time I rejected him - and I am 100% sure similar thoughts ran through his mind during those rejections. I also know that he would tell you if he did not accept the starfish sex - he would not have gotten any sex at all. 

Or... possibly...could he have changed things if he had challenged me in the early years with "No thanks - I appreciate the offer, especially since it has been a long time since you have allowed me to have sex with you. But frankly I am not interested in just using your body to get an orgasm. I can do that with my hand. I want to have sex with you - to connect with you - to show my love and desire for you. But I also want to feel that you love me and desire me. And right now - I don't feel loved and desired by you. Our relationship is in trouble. I think we need to get some professional help, as I can't live in a relationship where I feel unloved and repulsive."


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Mary35, I would just about place bets that we were raised in the same religion. I've run into more than a few people like myself here (of course I could be completely wrong and it isn't even important - I just recognize the story line.) 

As I was just saying here the other day. When you are sexually immature, kept sexually naive, spend way more effort trying to not think about sex than learning how your body works - you kind of expect, and I know both myself and my peer group did, that you had an orgasm when you had sex and everything was worth the waiting. 

And indeed it does work that way for some. But for many more there are no orgasms and you don't know why and the husband doesn't seem the least bit concerned about it. It does diverge from something you are supposed to share with each other to something that works great for him but not for you. 

(But incidentally I have been the HD on my marriage but I do empathize with the sexual immaturity part.)


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Not all marriage failures are for the same reasons. By the time the first year was spent, all we had to show for i it was the boy my ex bore compliments of some other guy she didn't even know his name. She had a second child two years later by a different donor.
She later confessed she was LD, just not with me.
I should have figures it out because our sex encounters in a year's time where less frequent than the number of holidays celebrated.
My work schedule required to support her lavish lifestyle provided her plenty of "her time".
My only advice for any couple would be to NEVER consider marriage before sexual compatibility is established.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Mary,

That's an exceptional description of a dynamic that - sadly - happens quite often. 




mary35 said:


> That is the message I heard - loud and clear - and it re-affirmed my belief that sex had nothing to do with love or emotional connection. And it confirmed in my faulty brain - that it was only about sexual gratification for him.
> 
> I can vividly remember thinking on many occasions while he did his thing - Why does he do this - he knows I don't want too? This isn't love! And when he was done - I would roll to my side of the bed, as far away as possible.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

TechMom,
In hindsight, M2's marital communication was phenomenal. 

The thing I'm most grateful for was her insistence that affection be separated from sex. 




techmom said:


> I'm so happy that this thread is free from the endless badgering of HDs, so here I go:
> 
> The reason why I quoted the above is to say that this is the major thing that grinds my gears about HDs. Is that they assume that sex is the only supreme vehicle to express love in a marriage. So they push, cajole, negotiate, beg and plead us to FEEL the same way they do. Yet, they didn't care to check in to see if we felt the same way before marriage, kids and a mortgage.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening techmom
I think your post very well describes the feelings and expectations of many LDs and HDs.

I think it is probably quite accurate - and terribly depressing. I don't think that there is a solution that will keep both people happy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

QuietSoul,

Great screen name. This is a perfect example of selfish, over the top HD behavior. 



[/B]


QuietSoul said:


> Thx for starting this discussion
> 
> Firstly, I know it gets used a lot here but I personally don't find the HD and LD labels overly helpful. I am currently more HD than my H yet i would be hardly considered HD compared to the general standard here. On the other hand, H is a sex addict in long term recovery yet he is no sex fiend, at least at home. Another thing about this is that it hints at some kind if hard wiring, almost like a personality profile. There are many factors which can affect us over out lifetime. I would say that I use to be very sexual. But at this point, i am not, but that may change again.
> 
> ...


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Thx Mem









I thing some of this behaviour is present in some HD's for sure but some of it is just downright narcissistic and nothing to do with wanting genuine intimacy with one's partner as a human being. I don't know what to call that. Maybe it's addiction or purely a biological process. 

It's a shame though that there is a lot of LD bashing in the sex section. I just saw another post in here saying LD = sexual withholders. That's why I liked this thread because the question was about trying to open up understanding than creating more unhelpful labels


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> No - I did not ask him what he liked. He pretty much lead the way when we were first married and did what I thought he liked - which was some touching, but mostly intercourse. He was not very adventourous back then. There were many times that I was left feeling somewhat frustrated. But I did not feel comfortable talking to him about sex - or showing him what felt good and apparently he was just as uncomfortable talking to me about it. So I would occasionally masturbate when he was not around. That led to feeling guilty. Sometimes I felt resentful after we had sex, when he was done and I was just starting to feel arroused. Sometimes I felt sex changed him, that he acted different during sex, that he looked at me as a sexual object. I did not like how he was during sex. Could this have been part of my "Good Girl" syndrome thinking? Probably! But I sometimes wonder if he had been a more generous lover - more concerned about my enjoyment - would things have been different. Maybe not! We both had a lot of growing up to do back then.


Your reply to me was basically that you never talked to him about anything that bothered you with your sex life, so he never knew anything was wrong. That being said, if you never told him there was a problem, how was he supposed to know? If I was in my situation, but never told my wife my problems with our sex life, I would have nobody to blame but myself, because I never told her I had a problem (that is most definitely not our case).


mary35 said:


> I need to make it clear - I am NOT blaming my husband for our issues. The issues are mostly mine. But things he did - knowingly or not, intentionally or not, did affect me in a negative way. I am explaining - not blaming. The blame for the sexual dessert in my marriage goes on me. I created the dessert, not my husband! I did not do it knowingly, nor intentionally and I did not do it to punish my husband for the things he did or didn't do to me.


You say that, but your thread title is all about blaming him. Your whole situation seems to have stemmed from a complete lack of communication. Your husband didn't please you, but you were both virgins and you gave him no feedback on how to please you. He did what he could with what you gave him. You say this thread is not about the LD's part, it is about the HD's part....so what exactly is your HD husbands part in your marriages lack of sex?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> That is the message I heard - loud and clear - and it re-affirmed my belief that sex had nothing to do with love or emotional connection. And it confirmed in my faulty brain - that it was only about sexual gratification for him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have tried to clear up that sort of misunderstanding in my wife but have failed. My approach has included direct discussions of what it means to me when she is open to physical intimacy, and what rejection means to me too. I have introduced her to the Five Love Languages book, and it was one of the rare things that sort if resonated wit her.



It has been hard for her to hear what rejection is like for me, and so that direct approach has never worked. It is not clear to me if she understands being open to me physically is something that is meaningful to me. I have been told multiple times that she believes I just want essentially meaningless "sex" and she is the one that happens to be convenient.



I have for the last several months taken an approach somewhat similar to what you mentioned -- basically I have tried to make clear I am not interested in loveless sex, I'm not going to initiate. It is not so much an issue of starfish sex, it is that I truly am not interested in any sort of sex with someone that has treated me the way she has(our issues are much more than sexual related).



We do seem to be at an impasse. I am not sure what answers there are for anyone, but my suspicion is anything that keeps distance present rather than closing it is hard to undo after a time.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



QuietSoul said:


> Thx Mem
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I wonder is what HE thought of HIMSELF? You see a lot of "shoulds" in the SIM forum. And I often wonder what the other partner feels about those "shoulds".


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> Your reply to me was basically that you never talked to him about anything that bothered you with your sex life, so he never knew anything was wrong. That being said, if you never told him there was a problem, how was he supposed to know? If I was in my situation, but never told my wife my problems with our sex life, I would have nobody to blame but myself, because I never told her I had a problem (that is most definitely not our case).
> 
> There are many forms of communication. I never verbally told my husband there was a problem. However - I am fairly certain that my not having orgasms, not cuddling up to him after sex, turning away from him quickly after sex, avoiding sex, making excuses, retreating from his advances should have signaled there was a problem.
> 
> ...


The simple answer - and this is not blame - just simple statement of fact:

1. He allowed my sexual withdrawal to continue for years, without ever verbally addressing the problem with me.

2. He unwittingly contributed to my lack of enthusiasm for sex with him through his lack of sexual technique and knowledge.

3. His non-verbal way of handling not getting sex was not attractive or endearing and made me want to have sex with him even less.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> The simple answer - and this is not blame - just simple statement of fact:
> 
> 1. He allowed my sexual withdrawal to continue for years, without ever verbally addressing the problem with me.
> 
> ...


Mary35, 
Your posts are spot on!
In my 23 year marriage I have done exactly what your husband has done. Partly out of ignorance and part selfishness.
I will tell you this. 
ALL OF YOU MEN IN HD/LD relationships. READ AND UNDERSTAND HER WORDS !!!!!! Fixing these EXACT problems in myself has transformed my wife into someone I dream about daily. Even when I masturbate I think about my wife. She is turning out to be a real sexy women in bed and it's blowing my mind!!

READ MARY'S WORDS !! You may not like the truth, but the truth will set you free!


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> QuietSoul said:
> 
> 
> > Thx Mem
> ...


I don't really know what he thought bit I don't think he really cared either.... When he would do stuff to me in my sleep, I would wake up and sometimes burst into tears and he would say "but you were enjoying it". Like wtf does that even mean? I was asleep! And me crying about it didn't deter it from happening again. 

As for the rest... He seemed to have very little insight. Watched too much porn and confused it with reality maybe...

But here is a "should": consentual sex with a conscious person


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Mem - can you fix the title - change the word pard to part? It is driving me nuts.


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Another thing I thought of... I find it helps when maybe we're both in the mood and something starts happening, say kissing/petting. Here are some things a HD person can try:

1. Letting LD know the can be in control of the pace, including stopping/change of mind if they don't want to have sex in the end

2. Don't assume they are ready for the next step. Eg, if you are affectionate, don't assume LD wants it to get sexual and don't lead it that way. If kissing/touching, don't just go to the next step and say put your hand down there. Let LD lead and say what they want in their own time. 

3. Forget the formula if what SHOULD happen. Eg, sometimes it will just be oral, sometimes just they will orgasm, or sometimes just you. Sometimes neither of you will for whatever reason. Maybe you will just end up cuddling and talking


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> Mary35,
> Your posts are spot on!
> In my 23 year marriage I have done exactly what your husband has done. Partly out of ignorance and part selfishness.
> I will tell you this.
> ...


The OP appears to experience situational LD. My ex was either innately LD, or else married me for the wrong reasons and made no attempt to fix the issues. As I said in an earlier post, none of the OP's issues existed in my first marriage, so there was nothing I could do to change things.

Even so, I'm very glad that for _some _LD/HD scenarios, there are potential solutions.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



mary35 said:


> Mem - can you fix the title - *change the word pard to part?* It is driving me nuts.


:lol:

I know the feeling... you create an interesting thread, only to have the title screwed up!


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



QuietSoul said:


> I don't really know what he thought bit I don't think he really cared either.... When he would do stuff to me in my sleep, I would wake up and sometimes burst into tears and he would say "but you were enjoying it". Like wtf does that even mean? I was asleep! And me crying about it didn't deter it from happening again.
> 
> As for the rest... He seemed to have very little insight. Watched too much porn and confused it with reality maybe...
> 
> But here is a "should": consentual sex with a conscious person


I have woken up with my hb's hands in my pajamas or him trying to position me for sex. These acts of selfishness by some HDs reinforce for the ld that any hole will do, that it is just about getting your rocks off. This doesn't make me want sex it makes me feel cheap like a piece of meat. When this happened years ago it started to dampen my sexuality. 

I don't want to start on the topic of porn but....
I used to watch porn with my hb when we were first married. Eventually he asked for things we saw in porn, I happily obliged with some things and not others. Some things (oral sex, doggie) I liked other things I clearly didn't (anal sex, some uncomfortable positions which didn't do anything for me). I asked him to stop the things I didn't want and concentrate on the things I liked. He still pushed for anal. I said back then that if you want me to enjoy sex, don't push for things I don't want. He insisted thinking that he could somehow sway me.

This caused me to initiate less and masterbate more. After all, self pleasure didn't come with the baggage of trying the anal or whatever else hb saw in porn. I decided to explore my sexuality by myself. We had sex less and less, hb starts to complain about my masterbating. I tell him why I don't enjoy him anymore, but he still refuses to listen. 

Nowadays I don't even look at porn, why bother? All it did was cause problems for me.

Mary, you can add this to the list of things that HDs do to cause LD in their partner.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

"Falling asleep shortly after sex for men is a normal biological response, which has to do with their hormone levels. I don't think you can fault him there. Can you think of why he pulled away like he did?"

This is something I am acutely aware of and we have worked out a way to avoid this. Every time we are intimate, she has told me how much she wants me to remain in her after I climax. She grips me in an leg lock to prevent me from withdrawing. She let me know from early on. I feel myself wanting to just turn over, but I don't. Then after she relaxes and I go soft, then and only then do I roll over, and we cuddle and talk. I cannot speak for women obviously, but every one I've known does not want the guy to just roll over. 

this thread is a real eye opener and a call (at least to me) for men to be less selfish and aware by reading their wives and listening. While I think we're doing pretty good, I could stand to be even less selfish personally.

The reverse could be true, I'm sure.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening QuietSoul
I think some of the bashing comes from the fundamentally different view of sex from LDs and HDs. To HDs, sex is "easy" - they simply cannot understand why someone who loves them would not do such a simple thing to make their lives better. They conclude that it must be an effort at calculated control, or extreme selfishness.

Imagine you had an armload of groceries, and your partner who was standing right next to a closed door wouldn't open it for you. Normally this would be obnoxious behavior on their part - but if they were a quadriplegic it would make perfect sense, they COULDN'T open the door. 

This is the big disconnect - LD simply cannot provide sex when they don't want it. 

This and other threads have been very useful to me - it has made it clear that HDs are asking for something their LD partners simply cannot provide. Of course the LDs are hoping that their HD partners will change something that they cannot change.

More and more I am convinced that a HD/LD relationship cannot really be happy. At most one partner can pretend to be happy so that the other is really happy.





QuietSoul said:


> Thx Mem
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening Quietsoul
For situational LDs this is all good advice. For "true" LDs, nothing will work. Trying to fix things just leads to endless frustration for the HD - the maze with no exit that another poster mentioned. 

Based on this, other discussions, and interactions with my wife - NOTHING I do can change how she feels about sex. Nothing. She literally could not think of a single thing that I could change, do, not do etc. 

Somehow people need to figure out if their partners are "situational" or "true" LD. Those with situational LD partners can change things, can make them better. Those with true LD partner cannot, and will only become resentful by trying.

I wonder if situational LD people also have a difficult time understanding true LDs.




QuietSoul said:


> Another thing I thought of... I find it helps when maybe we're both in the mood and something starts happening, say kissing/petting. Here are some things a HD person can try:
> 
> 1. Letting LD know the can be in control of the pace, including stopping/change of mind if they don't want to have sex in the end
> 
> ...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



techmom said:


> I have woken up with my hb's hands in my pajamas or him trying to position me for sex. These acts of selfishness by some HDs reinforce for the ld that any hole will do, that it is just about getting your rocks off. This doesn't make me want sex it makes me feel cheap like a piece of meat. When this happened years ago it started to dampen my sexuality.
> 
> I don't want to start on the topic of porn but....
> I used to watch porn with my hb when we were first married. Eventually he asked for things we saw in porn, I happily obliged with some things and not others. Some things (oral sex, doggie) I liked other things I clearly didn't (anal sex, some uncomfortable positions which didn't do anything for me). I asked him to stop the things I didn't want and concentrate on the things I liked. He still pushed for anal. I said back then that if you want me to enjoy sex, don't push for things I don't want. He insisted thinking that he could somehow sway me.
> ...


I too have asked, pestered, insisted that my wife do anal sex. I have come to the conclusion that if I make love to her the way a man should, that in time, she will be so beside herself with ecstasy that I won't have to ask her for anal, she'll beg me for it.
At least it's a good attitude for me to have


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Title fixed, but the original typo will continue to appear in any replies prior to the correction.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> Happy,
> 
> There is a massive amount of non verbal communication in any marriage. That's perfectly normal.
> 
> ...


I think the message being sent here is simple: "I'm desperate for sex." Regardless, I guess that's not a attractive message.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening UMP
the HD people ARE desperate for sex. Blaming them for that is like blaming a homeless person for being dirty when they have no access to washing facilities. 



UMP said:


> I think the message being sent here is simple: "I'm desperate for sex." Regardless, I guess that's not a attractive message.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

QuietSoul said:


> I don't really know what he thought bit I don't think he really cared either.... When he would do stuff to me in my sleep, I would wake up and sometimes burst into tears and he would say "but you were enjoying it". Like wtf does that even mean? I was asleep! And me crying about it didn't deter it from happening again.
> 
> As for the rest... He seemed to have very little insight. Watched too much porn and confused it with reality maybe...
> 
> But here is a "should": consentual sex with a conscious person


In the "should" department, whatever prevented you from speaking was also an obstacle, whether that was fear, or lack of knowledge... But crying is a form of speaking too. And that he did not care about that speaks volumes to me.

But having gone through with the wedding, he probably thought he "should" get sex whenever he wants. Right? Vows?

We here this type of thing from guys all the time.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening UMP
> the HD people ARE desperate for sex. *Blaming *them for that is like blaming a homeless person for being dirty when they have no access to washing facilities.


This is the single number one reason people don't solve SIM problems. IMO. So focused on who is to BLAME vs how to solve he PROBLEM. You see people on here blaming their LD spouses. If that person is already disinterested, and they sniff blame wafting off their spouse, I am not betting that is getting them in the mood. Solve the problem. And if part of the problem is coming off all desperate, needy and clingy, solve the problem. And thus get the solution you want.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Please stop replying inside the quote box. It makes it a pain to respond back to you. 


> There are many forms of communication. I never verbally told my husband there was a problem. However - I am fairly certain that my not having orgasms, not cuddling up to him after sex, turning away from him quickly after sex, avoiding sex, making excuses, retreating from his advances should have signaled there was a problem.


Your whole premise seems to center around your husband being some kind of mind reader with no sexual experience knowing what to do to make you happy. 'He just should have known' is the vibe I get from you. So, since he obviously didn't, why exactly did you wait so many years to simply say something instead of just shutting down a very important part of married life (and life in general)? 


> First of all - what I am describing is my life - over 30 years ago. We have dealt with our issues and have a very healthy, frequent, satisfactory sexual relationship now and have had one for the past 10 years.


So what? You still made the thread title now, and it still comes off as blaming your husband for your sexual problems back then.



> I started this thread in an effort to foster understanding - to help both LD's and HD's struggling with conflicts over sexual frequency. While blaming your spouses may make you feel better - and allow you to ignore your responsibilities in fixing the problems, blaming your spouses will never fix your spouses. So if my title signifies to you that this thread is a HD bashing thread - and an effort to shift the blame for LD's problems to the HD spouse - you have totally misunderstood my purpose. My purpose is to foster understanding, and part of understanding an LD is to understand that most (I would argue all) are not people who simply have no biological desire for sex. I personally believe, that LD spouses lack of desire is influenced by many complicated factors in their life -and one of those factors is their HD's behavior towards them. To analyze is to understand - and that is what this thread is all about - analyzing HD's behavior that may influence LD's to withdraw from sex with their partner.


So, you think finding a way to bash and blame the HD partner is 'helping'? I don't. You seriously think that all LD are people that fit into the mold you created above to support this thread? That is a might broad brush. Are there some LD's that might be that way, sure. All, hell no. Most, I wouldn't even go that far. The fact that you used a textbook case of no communication to try to illustrate your point when many here have tried communication for years, have tried everything they can think of, is quite simply, a slap in the face to those people and the effort they have put in to working on their situations.



> I am feeling some anger from you and am getting the impression that you think that husbands I (or at least some husbands) in low sex marriages have absolutely no responsibility for their situations? If that is the case - I would have to say that the fact that they choose to stay in a low sex marriage means they have some responsibility for their situation .


Am I angry, no. I don't like that you keep trying to say "I'm not blaming my husband.............BUT..........". The content of your posts say otherwise. I see it for what it is. You never told him you had a problem, he is not a mind reader. If you have a problem, you need to say something, not this passive aggressive stuff that you are now saying is his fault he never caught. That you come on here and frame your arguments that way signals to others that if they never say anything, it is ok, because their HD partner should 'just know', and if they don't 'just know', even though the LD partner never says anything, then it's their (the HD partners) fault. That is like blaming the BS for the WS cheating. That's not how it works.

There are lots of reasons people stay in sh!tty marriages. Kids, too much debt, insurance. But, I would safely say, the number 1 reason among most guys, tied with children, if not slightly beating it out, is that men get taken to the cleaners in divorce court. They lose half of everything, half their retirement, end up paying alimony (even in some of the most disgusting of cases), etc. Guys can legitimately end up living on 30% or less of their own pay. 70% of the money a guy earns goes to someone else. Yeah, that is why guys stay in unhappy marriages. I mean hell, I launch aircraft off of aircraft carriers, one of the most dangerous environments in the world. If I get divorced, my wife gets half my retirement when she was sitting in the states going to starbucks at the same time. Sure, seems fair to me.

Other than that, re your points which I assume are an answer to my last question of exactly how your husband is to blame:



mary35 said:


> The simple answer - and this is not blame - just simple statement of fact:
> 
> 1. He allowed my sexual withdrawal to continue for years, without ever verbally addressing the problem with me.
> 
> ...



1. You wanted him to verbally address you on problems but you never verbally addressed him on them. You wanted him to be a mind reader. Double standard.

2. & 3. Instead of fixing the problem before it was a major problem in your marriage, you just let it get worse and worse, and instead of saying something to him about any of it, you just blamed him (in your head, of course, because you never said anything). How exactly was that helpful to the situation. You tapdanced around the question I posed before. Your thread title says


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanx Deejo!


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

So, your solution is to shift the blame to the LD. Again with the blaming........ it solves nothing.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> So, your solution is to shift the blame to the LD. Again with the blaming........ it solves nothing.


Her own words: She knew for years there was a problem and refused to talk to her husband about it. Hers was not a biological problem, it was fixable (obviously), and instead of dealing with it, she just kept quiet and did nothing, waiting for his psychic abilities to kick in.

What exactly do you call that?

I mean, her solution is to shift the blame to her husband....why is that the acceptable solution?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> Your whole premise seems to center around your husband being some kind of mind reader with no sexual experience knowing what to do to make you happy.


That is not really her premise at all it seems to me. We got married with no clue. Here is how I was clueless (eg. trying to accommodate rather than speaking up). Here is how he was clueless. Do you find yourself in this position? Don't be clueless in this way might help you. Anyway that is what I read.



> 'He just should have known' is the vibe I get from you.


So.... if your spouse is bawling. Do you think you would have known SOMETHING?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening UMP
> the HD people ARE desperate for sex. Blaming them for that is like blaming a homeless person for being dirty when they have no access to washing facilities.


True, but what to do when that "desperation" makes you look unattractive in the eyes of an LD wife?
Kind of a "Catch-22"

Here is what I do. In times that I am desperate for sex and my wife is clearly not interested for whatever reason, I look back on the not too long ago times of great sex. I also try to place myself in her shoes. For example, my wife is currently in Florida visiting her sister along with our two daughters. What do you think I want the second she gets off the plane? Sex, of course.
However, I have to understand that she may need some time to unwind, unpack and get her senses back to reality. This may only take a few hours or it may indeed take a few days.
I MUST understand this and take it in stride if the signals are not there to have sex.

I think the most attractive thing I can do for my wife is to be able to control my sexual urges. Sometimes I can and sometimes I cannot. C'est La Vie.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> That is not really her premise at all it seems to me. We got married with no clue. Here is how I was clueless (eg. trying to accommodate rather than speaking up). Here is how he was clueless. Do you find yourself in this position? Don't be clueless in this way might help you. Anyway that is what I read.
> 
> 
> So.... if your spouse is bawling. Do you think you would have known SOMETHING?


That is the premise. Have you read her OP/any of the other posts? She acknowledges that she knew there was a problem and she never talked to him about it, but expected him to talk to her about it. She started a thread about how HD's are to blame (signifying her husband, and in as much says so in her OP), calls him out that he didn't verbally talk to her about their sexual problems, when she fully admits she never talked to him either and instead just let her drive shut down. She never once mentioned anything about her bawling, so you can get rid of that red herring.

If people wanted to have a legitimate conversation about LD, I could see that. But that is not what she is doing. She is merely blaming her husband for her own lack of communication because he didn't read her mind. She straight up said that he didnt verbally talk to her about their sexual problems, but admits she never talked to him either, and it is somehow his fault (she says it is not blame, but it was posted as a response to my question about exactly what part of their problems were his fault per HER thread title).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Quietsoul
> For situational LDs this is all good advice. For "true" LDs, nothing will work. Trying to fix things just leads to endless frustration for the HD - the maze with no exit that another poster mentioned.


I don't understand how people get here. How do you wind up married to someone you are completely sexually incompatible with?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> That is the premise. Have you read her OP/any of the other posts? She acknowledges that she knew there was a problem and she never talked to him about it, but expected him to talk to her about it. She started a thread about how HD's are to blame (signifying her husband, and in as much says so in her OP), calls him out that he didn't verbally talk to her about their sexual problems, when she fully admits she never talked to him either and instead just let her drive shut down. She never once mentioned anything about her bawling, so you can get rid of that red herring.
> 
> If people wanted to have a legitimate conversation about LD, I could see that. But that is not what she is doing. She is merely blaming her husband for her own lack of communication because he didn't read her mind. She straight up said that he didnt verbally talk to her about their sexual problems, but admits she never talked to him either, and it is somehow his fault (she says it is not blame, but it was posted as a response to my question about exactly what part of their problems were his fault per HER thread title).


It's more complex than that. Maybe so complex it's to the point that we'll never really understand. We're just scratching the surface here. Let me give you an example. Let's say person A wants person B to proclaim their undying love for them. What is person A supposed to do? I'll tell you what they can't do and completely defeats the purpose, A asks B to tell them that they love them. Requesting what you want completely takes the truth out of a desired statement from the other party.
We need to learn to read our LD spouses. We need to educate ourselves and learn how to be great lovers. We need to take threads like this and not be angry at the LD's posting valuable information, but LEARN and APPLY the knowledge we gain.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> I don't understand how people get here. How do you wind up married to someone you are completely sexually incompatible with?


"**** Happens"


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

I haven't read all the responses here, but I like the idea of this thread. I'm the LD husband of a (relatively) HD woman. This among many other issues has caused trouble for us.

I think the single biggest mistake she made was in assuming that my lack of interest was personally directed at her. I suspect this is because many people assume that LD males do not exist. Certainly it's a contradiction of our cultural stereotypes.

A lesser problem, which is probably unique to me, is that she has not really taken me seriously when I try to explain to her my hang-ups about sex, which come from my upbringing (and my personality a little bit). She would essentially just say "that's stupid, don't think that." As if I get to just flip a switch that turns thoughts off.

That said, I would say our sexual difficulties are much more my fault than hers.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> It's more complex than that. Maybe so complex it's to the point that we'll never really understand. We're just scratching the surface here. Let me give you an example. Let's say person A wants person B to proclaim their undying love for them. What is person A supposed to do? I'll tell you what they can't do and completely defeats the purpose, A asks B to tell them that they love them. Requesting what you want completely takes the truth out of a desired statement from the other party.
> We need to learn to read our LD spouses. We need to educate ourselves and learn how to be great lovers. We need to take threads like this and not be angry at the LD's posting valuable information, but LEARN and APPLY the knowledge we gain.


That is the common mistake: I am not angry. But, I am not afraid to call out bullsh!t either. She actively refused to talk to her husband about problems SHE was having in their sex life, and is blaming her husband for it. That is not LD. She let it turn into LD, and that is on her, not him. It is a false premise for this thread. I don't think the thread topic is a bad one, but I think the example chosen is a poor one.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

LaundryMan said:


> I haven't read all the responses here, but I like the idea of this thread. I'm the LD husband of a (relatively) HD woman. This among many other issues has caused trouble for us.
> 
> I think the single biggest mistake she made was in assuming that my lack of interest was personally directed at her. I suspect this is because many people assume that LD males do not exist. Certainly it's a contradiction of our cultural stereotypes.
> 
> ...


But you guys talk about your issues, right?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> That is the common mistake: I am not angry. But, I am not afraid to call out bullsh!t either. She actively refused to talk to her husband about problems SHE was having in their sex life, and is blaming her husband for it. That is not LD. She let it turn into LD, and that is on her, not him. It is a false premise for this thread. I don't think the thread topic is a bad one, but I think the example chosen is a poor one.


My wife does not want to tell me certain things. She wants me to figure it out on my own. Is this right or wrong? You would probably call it wrong or bullsh!t and I would agree with you.
However, it does not take away it's reality.
That's all I am saying. However f$cked up it is, it does not change the reality of it existing in real time with real people in real marriages all across the world.
All that said, I am becoming a damn good mind reader, if I do say so myself


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

LaundryMan said:


> A lesser problem, which is probably unique to me, is that she has not really taken me seriously when I try to explain to her my hang-ups about sex, which come from my upbringing (and my personality a little bit). She would essentially just say "that's stupid, don't think that." As if I get to just flip a switch that turns thoughts off.


I get this. 
My wife hates roller coasters. I love roller coasters. Every friggen time we go to an amusement park I ask her to ride the roller coaster. I cannot friggen understand why she does not like roller coasters because, after all, I LOVE roller coasters. "Honey, you have no idea what you're missing, roller coasters are AMAZING and so much fun!!!"
Guess what happens? I ride the roller coaster.......alone.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> That is the common mistake: I am not angry. But, I am not afraid to call out bullsh!t either. She actively refused to talk to her husband about problems SHE was having in their sex life, and is blaming her husband for it. That is not LD. She let it turn into LD, and that is on her, not him. It is a false premise for this thread. I don't think the thread topic is a bad one, but I think the example chosen is a poor one.


She didn't know HOW to talk to him, just like he didn't know how to talk to her about their sexual problems. This thread is not to blame the HD, but to give them insight into the LD mindset, and offer suggestions about how to open a discussion about sex.

Each person assumes that if my spouse loves me, he/she would understand how I feel. But it does not necessarily work out that way. You have to do the hard work of communicating. Sex is incredibly difficult to talk about because we are so vulnerable to misunderstanding and rejection. Mary is offering a way for HDs to learn how to talk to their LDs.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> "**** Happens"


Yah. But. HOW it happens is kind of important troubleshooting information. So I am in tech. When we get a problem, we don't just stab at it. Talk at the end user and hope the end user changes their behavior. We do root cause analysis. The HD people seem to think that whatever the LD's issues are should just be ignored. I will give you some examples:

1. Religious people did not have sex before marriage. They did not talk about sex before marriage. They had no idea that they had different expectations. What do they do? Perhaps see a pastor to understand the role of sex in marriage for their denomination.

2. Two people that had an awesome sex life and now don't. What changed? Loss of love and respect? If you know, you know what to work on.

...

What we know for a FACT does not work is "I want more sex." But that is what people on this board insist on continuing to do. Why would you keep doing something that does not work?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

All,

As hoped, this thread is full of great information. 

Note: UMP who is very self aware recognized certain unhelpful patterns and addressed them. 

He understands his wife. Equally important he accepts her. 

I think a quick sanity check is in order here.

Your sex life happens in the context of 'the big picture' of your marriage, but that's too complicated to address here. 

For the moment I'll assume the rest of the marriage is at least 'good' whatever that means. 

Except for one thing, I'm going to ignore everything else in the overall 'good' marriage save for one thing. Touch. Contact. Physicality. Whether it's a brilliantly effective type of pre foreplay or a sincere desire for non sexual contact. Anyway I will refer to it below as Contact. 

At least for us, these were the inputs that produced an overall good result. 

Communication, Commitment, Compatibility, and Contact

Communication - There's talking and than there's 'getting through'. Those two things are radically different. It's ok to be diplomatic the first time, but when that fails, be totally unfiltered. 

Commitment - This part of your marriage needs a high level of commitment. It just does. Without that you have a HD spouse on one side, whose entire control system consists of a single red button labelled: Ignition 

And an LD spouse on the other side with a dashboard that makes the space shuttle look simple. 

Commitment is the thing that gets you to try to put yourself in their shoes. It's the thing that drives the LD spouse to get themselves in the mood proactively because they can see their spouse is beginning to get - tense - edgy - disconnected. 

Compatibility: 
- Acceptance of differences 
- Pacing (if I'm rushing you, it likely feels as if it's all about me, if I let your bodies rate of response set the pace, it doesn't)

Contact: I focus here because this is the one area where I would have destroyed our marriage if left to my own devices. 

I groped M2 because I thought it was fun for both of us. One day, during our first year living together she nearly ripped my head off letting me know she *'Hated being groped, absolutely couldn't stand it'*. 

1. I immediately stopped groping her 
2. I started paying attention to what type of touch she liked and responded well to. I got really good at contact. I totally 100% separated contact from sex. From foreplay. Even if I DID get turned on from touching her, I gave no sign of it. I didn't resent that. Just accepted it as a wiring difference. 

Fairly quickly M2 developed a strong positive conditioned response to contact. *Contact -> endorphine release *

That same contact in bed at night - produced the same response. Relaxed, happy. Her touching my naked body and some kissing did the rest. 

I know this last bit might seem artificial, but it wasn't. Somehow I had realized from M2's feedback that - being low affect sexually - worked really, really well with her. So - sure - she knew I was super turned on because I was hard - but - no there were no sound effects or other signs of me being turned on UNTIL SHE WAS TURNED ON. 

I completely avoided the 'puppy humping your leg' scenario. 

Even though I never thought of that analogy. When I read it here on TAM I laughed and cringed. Because until M2 ripped my head off for groping her - I WAS that puppy. 





NobodySpecial said:


> This is the single number one reason people don't solve SIM problems. IMO. So focused on who is to BLAME vs how to solve he PROBLEM. You see people on here blaming their LD spouses. If that person is already disinterested, and they sniff blame wafting off their spouse, I am not betting that is getting them in the mood. Solve the problem. And if part of the problem is coming off all desperate, needy and clingy, solve the problem. And thus get the solution you want.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Altawa, 

I appreciate your comments. I am sure you speak for many. I have tried to answer your questions and explain myself the best I can. 

Should I have communicated my issues to my husband? Absolutely. Did MY lack of communication cause me to have sex less with my husband? Absolutely! Am I solely responsible for the sexual desert for years in my marriage? Yes - I am solely responsible. I took control of the sex in our marriage for many years and take full responsibility for the things I did and did not do. I take full responsibility for our marriage suffering during those years because of my actions or inaction. That is MY part in the interaction of our sexual life! I own it! 

But... (yes - there is definitely a "but... ") that does mean that my sexual relationship with my husband did not have a 2 way interaction effect. He played a part in those interactions and his part had an effect on me. I played a part in those interactions which had an effect on him. There is 2 way interaction effects in everyone's marital relationships - is there not? My husband acted a certain way and I reacted to it. I acted in a certain way and he reacted to it. I did things to push him away. He did things to push me away. I did things to pull him closer to me and he did things to pull me in closer to him. I am not talking only about sex here - I am also talking about our whole relationship in general. So if I describe something he did - and how I reacted to it or the effect it had on me or vice a versa - I am describing his part and my part of that interaction. If you see that as placing blame - so be it!! I don't! I don't know how to make this any clearer to you!

I doubt there is anything else I can say to change how you take this thread or how you react to what I have written. You see it your way - and I understand why you would see it that way. I see it differently! I am sorry that you can not understand why I see it the way I do.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> All,
> 
> As hoped, this thread is full of great information.
> 
> ...


If you write a book, I will buy a copy.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. But. HOW it happens is kind of important troubleshooting information. So I am in tech. When we get a problem, we don't just stab at it. Talk at the end user and hope the end user changes their behavior. We do root cause analysis. The HD people seem to think that whatever the LD's issues are should just be ignored. I will give you some examples:
> 
> 1. Religious people did not have sex before marriage. They did not talk about sex before marriage. They had no idea that they had different expectations. What do they do? Perhaps see a pastor to understand the role of sex in marriage for their denomination.
> 
> ...


I think it's mostly ignorance. You have KNOWLEDGE when you tackle your IT problems.
I will let you in on a little secret that I have never told ANYONE other than my current wife. Please do not think I am a fool.
Here goes.....................

I only learned of the very EXISTANCE of the female orgasm several years into my second marriage. Yep, you read that correctly. I did not know that women had orgasms until I was 30 years old.
I only LEARNED of the existence of the female orgasm at THIRTY years of age. How in the F$CKING world do you think I was equipped to make an informed decision on sex in marriage ??

This is coming from a well educated, well cultured, successful business owner. Regarding sex, I was a complete f$cking idiot!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Altawa,

I believe you have an opportunity to really help the HD community here. To do that, I'm going to ask you to do an exercise with me.

So here's the exercise. 

Provide 2-3 examples of non verbal communication that your partner / spouse used to send you a message, and three where someone at work did the same.

In all cases, this is where someone is communicating with you via facial expression or tone of voice or body language. 

I'll give you an example from work first: 

I'm talking to a client and they cross their arms over their chest. It's a classic 'closed off' body language. It's typically not good. 

I switch gears, stop pitching and ask: 
We weren't sure if it would be better to focus more on X than Y in the presentation. Can you give me some guidance on that?

If they say: I don't know and blow off the question, there's probably an underlying issue. Maybe I can get them to tell me, maybe I need to ask one of their colleagues. But I'm pretty confident there is an issue. M

If however they unfold their arms and sincerely try to give me some input, we are probably ok. 







altawa said:


> That is the common mistake: I am not angry. But, I am not afraid to call out bullsh!t either. She actively refused to talk to her husband about problems SHE was having in their sex life, and is blaming her husband for it. That is not LD. She let it turn into LD, and that is on her, not him. It is a false premise for this thread. I don't think the thread topic is a bad one, but I think the example chosen is a poor one.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> I think it's mostly ignorance. You have KNOWLEDGE when you tackle your IT problems.


So go get information! 



> I will let you in on a little secret that I have never told ANYONE other than my current wife. Please do not think I am a fool.
> Here goes.....................
> 
> I only learned of the very EXISTANCE of the female orgasm several years into my second marriage. Yep, you read that correctly. I did not know that women had orgasms until I was 30 years old.


Now you know! That is great. And really no shame in that. Lots of people have misinformation about sex and sexuality.



> I only LEARNED of the existence of the female orgasm at THIRTY years of age. How in the F$CKING world do you think I was equipped to make an informed decision on sex in marriage ??


So make informed decisions now. I DON'T think a lot of people make informed decisions. You know what I do when I make a mistake? Dust myself off and try something different that is, hopefully, not a mistake.



> This is coming from a well educated, well cultured, successful business owner. Regarding sex, I was a complete f$cking idiot!


Are you still?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

For the record, I think religion is a real contributor to many people's unhealthy sex attitudes and sex lives. I know it is very unpopular to say. But the truth is, many religions actively seek to keep people uninformed about the facts of biology as well as the marital expectation around sex. Men are told, get married then you get to have sex which you cannot have until you are married. Women are told, get married and you can have babies which you cannot have until you are married. And women, btw sex is not supposed to be fun for you. You are just supposed to it out of the goodness of your heart and hope for a baby. 

Mary. Does any of this sound familiar?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

And furthermore - the examples I chose to share were only an extremely small part of our over 30 year 2 way interaction. My low drive and eventual creation of a sexual desert in my marriage is way more complicated and hard to discuss in any depth on a forum. As I suspect are most couples life long marital interactions.

I show you a very very small glimpse into my relationship - and you think you know me and can diagnose my situation. I chose these specific examples because I felt most people can relate to them - and get the concept of two way interaction effects - that I was trying to present through my examples. I was trying to point out that everything we do with our spouses has an effect on them - and causes a reaction. Apparently, I failed in getting my point across with you - and probably others too. 

It is my "fault" and I take the "blame" for not being able to communicate my thoughts better!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> That is the common mistake: I am not angry. But, I am not afraid to call out bullsh!t either. She actively refused to talk to her husband about problems SHE was having in their sex life, and is blaming her husband for it. That is not LD. She let it turn into LD, and that is on her, not him. It is a false premise for this thread. I don't think the thread topic is a bad one, but I think the example chosen is a poor one.


Ok. So if you were her DH, what would you DO with this "on her" business? What does that GET you (rhetorically you)?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Some people are clueless to relationships. I do not always need a big sign to figure things out.

My friend is 25, and going through a divorce. He got addicted to Diablo 3, neglected his wife of a year, and was shocked that she was leaving. What percentage of responsibility does he hold for not paying attention to his own actions? Does he really need someone to tell him that neglect leaves to issues?

I am not sure on which forum I read this on, but a husband kept pushing large objects into his wife, and she has now associated him with pain. He only cared about his own desires, and did not pay attention to his wife's. She told him she did not like it, but he had this fixation of shoving large objects inside of her. Sometimes people ignore others discomfort, worrying about getting what they want instead.

Just look at anal sex in genral, most women do not find enjoyment from anal sex, but the porn shows that a lot of women enjoy anal sex. They build their sexual identity from false information. There are some female posters on here that suffered the same. They tell their SO that they do not like it, but their So guilts them into it. If you do not perform this sexual act, then you do not love me. Here is a common one, if I do not get a blowjob, I do not feel love. The flip side is he is forcing me into something I despise, he does not love me. About only 40 percent of women enjoy giving blow job for their partners enjoyment, about only half of that get turned on by the act. So, at least half of the men that enjoy blowjobs are sh1t out of luck.

I am really glad that my sexual experience comes from a much more experienced woman when I was younger. Nowadays, my gf and I would communicate during sex. If she wanted me to have sex while she is sleeping, we discuss it before hand. The trick is I would not always take advantage of the opportunity. Holding back can be fun, so she tries to figure out when it will happen. We agree, but I get to decide when I initiate. She controls the opportunity.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> So go get information!
> 
> 
> Now you know! That is great. And really no shame in that. Lots of people have misinformation about sex and sexuality.
> ...


Now, I'm Don F$cking Juan !!
Seriously, I'm good.

Unfortunately, some people "find" there sexuality late in life, as did I.
I started really liking sex when I was about 35 years old. By that time, my wife had checked out because she thought I was a lost cause. Thankfully, she is coming back.
I would like to think that this information can be more easily obtained with the internet and such. Back in the day, I MAYBE had one book my parents purchased and conspicuously left it where I could find it. That was the bulk of my sex education. The book was written by some moron and it did not talk about the female orgasm.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> For the record, I think religion is a real contributor to many people's unhealthy sex attitudes and sex lives. I know it is very unpopular to say. But the truth is, many religions actively seek to keep people uninformed about the facts of biology as well as the marital expectation around sex. Men are told, get married then you get to have sex which you cannot have until you are married. Women are told, get married and you can have babies which you cannot have until you are married. And women, btw sex is not supposed to be fun for you. You are just supposed to it out of the goodness of your heart and hope for a baby.
> 
> Mary. Does any of this sound familiar?


Very familiar. I had a pastor once tell me - he did not know that women masturbated too.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



skype said:


> She didn't know HOW to talk to him, just like he didn't know how to talk to her about their sexual problems. This thread is not to blame the HD, but to give them insight into the LD mindset, and offer suggestions about how to open a discussion about sex.
> 
> Each person assumes that if my spouse loves me, he/she would understand how I feel. But it does not necessarily work out that way. You have to do the hard work of communicating. Sex is incredibly difficult to talk about because we are so vulnerable to misunderstanding and rejection. Mary is offering a way for HDs to learn how to talk to their LDs.


I don't think communication is all that hard to do. If you are unhappy, for what ever reason, you tell your spouse. You are married and it's a safe zone to talk. The "how": "Husband, I don't like when you do x". Not so difficult. Everything is out in the open.

The whole issue in her marriage came down to a communication issue. She wanted her husband to read her mind and just know how she felt and what she wanted, as she never talked to him about how she felt. That does not help my marriage at all, since my husband and I have been communicating a lot and we're still stuck. I have no problem at all telling him how I feel or what I want. I literally asked my husband to please grope me, but he has yet to do so. He just doesn't act sexual toward me unless it's on his time table.

I'm religious myself, Catholic to be specific, but can't blame religion for sexual issues. I waited to have sex(only ever had sex with my husband), but I'm also HD. I love sex and it's the most vulnerable place I can put myself, as to give my whole body to my husband. It talks in the bible about giving your body to your spouse, in that your body is theirs and theirs is yours. That was a topic we discussed in premarital counseling(Engaged Encounter) that the church required us to attend before marriage. I don't see how someone can blame religion for sex issues, as I don't see it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> I don't think communication is all that hard to do. If you are unhappy, for what ever reason, you tell your spouse. You are married and it's a safe zone to talk. The "how": "Husband, I don't like when you do x". Not so difficult. Everything is out in the open.
> 
> The whole issue in her marriage came down to a communication issue. She wanted her husband to read her mind and just know how she felt and what she wanted, as she never talked to him about how she felt. That does not help my marriage at all, since my husband and I have been communicating a lot and we're still stuck. I have no problem at all telling him how I feel or what I want. I literally asked my husband to please grope me, but he has yet to do so. He just doesn't act sexual toward me unless it's on his time table.
> 
> I'm religious myself, Catholic to be specific, but can't blame religion for sexual issues. I waited to have sex(only ever had sex with my husband), but I'm also HD. I love sex and it's the most vulnerable place I can put myself, as to give my whole body to my husband. It talks in the bible about giving your body to your spouse, in that your body is theirs and theirs is yours. That was a topic we discussed in premarital counseling(Engaged Encounter) that the church required us to attend before marriage. I don't see how someone can blame religion for sex issues, as I don't see it.


That's nice. Maybe this is one place where the Catholic church trumps Luther, cause I got didly squat from the reformed side.
+1 for Catholics :smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

I absolutely believe that every man should have to watch the TV series 'Lie to Me' twice before getting engaged. 

When I met M2 back in the late 80's my ability to read non verbal communication (NVC) was terrible. Borderline non existent. 

M2's NVC skills were phenomenal. 

And my definition of NVC actually means: non Word Based communication

So it includes:
- Facial expression
- Non facial body language 
- Tone of voice, volume and pacing of speech

We would have avoided a LOT of conflict had I come into the marriage more NVC abled. 

The thing that maybe helped me the most was that I was absolutely convinced the truth was my friend. 

So when M2 told me the truth, I embraced it and worked with it. And consistently said: thank you for telling me that - and meant it

On average I believe women are inherently FAR better at NVC than men. 

It took me a LONG time to develop that skill. And when I first reached fluency - I swear it felt like I had a super power. 

And *deep sigh* I went a bit crazy for a while. I started vocalizing M2's facial expressions. She would make a face, briefly, this is called a micro expression. 

And using context, my deep knowledge of M2 and what I'd learned of micro expressions I'd laugh and say: You are thinking that ......

Intimacy is such an incredible gift. But true intimacy is given not taken. 

And after a few rounds of this foolishness - of me reaching into M2's head, reading her mind and saying exactly what she was thinking, M2 let me know that even a married person in love is entitled to a degree of privacy. And that sans invitation I needed to get the hell out of her head. 

And I honored that request. 






mary35 said:


> And furthermore - the examples I chose to share were only an extremely small part of our over 30 year 2 way interaction. My low drive and eventual creation of a sexual desert in my marriage is way more complicated and hard to discuss in any depth on a forum. As I suspect are most couples life long marital interactions.
> 
> I show you a very very small glimpse into my relationship - and you think you know me and can diagnose my situation. I chose these specific examples because I felt most people can relate to them - and get the concept of two way interaction effects - that I was trying to present through my examples. I was trying to point out that everything we do with our spouses has an effect on them - and causes a reaction. Apparently, I failed in getting my point across with you - and probably others too.
> 
> It is my "fault" and I take the "blame" for not being able to communicate my thoughts better!


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> That's nice. Maybe this is one place where the Catholic church trumps Luther, cause I got didly squat from the reformed side.
> +1 for Catholics :smthumbup:


I was raised in Catholic school. Sex BAD. Sex is a dirty, awful thing that women do for their man that they love. That was my education.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

Men who don't understand the importance and value of NVC aren't going to understand your message. 

Those who do, will find your posts to be insightful, balanced and helpful. 



mary35 said:


> And furthermore - the examples I chose to share were only an extremely small part of our over 30 year 2 way interaction. My low drive and eventual creation of a sexual desert in my marriage is way more complicated and hard to discuss in any depth on a forum. As I suspect are most couples life long marital interactions.
> 
> I show you a very very small glimpse into my relationship - and you think you know me and can diagnose my situation. I chose these specific examples because I felt most people can relate to them - and get the concept of two way interaction effects - that I was trying to present through my examples. I was trying to point out that everything we do with our spouses has an effect on them - and causes a reaction. Apparently, I failed in getting my point across with you - and probably others too.
> 
> It is my "fault" and I take the "blame" for not being able to communicate my thoughts better!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

mary35 said:


> Very familiar. I had a pastor once tell me - he did not know that women masturbated too.


I should also point out for clarity of the topic of this thread - that this man also played a part in my lack of desire and response to sex with my husband. In fact, by saying what he did, the part he played in my shutting myself off sexually - was a much larger part than my husband's part, yet my interaction with this man lasted only minutes! Was this man to blame for my marriages sexual desert? NO! Do I blame him? No - absolutely not! But his words DID have a big effect on me and my later behavior and beliefs.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> I don't think communication is all that hard to do. If you are unhappy, for what ever reason, you tell your spouse. You are married and it's a safe zone to talk. The "how": "Husband, I don't like when you do x". Not so difficult. Everything is out in the open.


Would that life were that black and white! It sounds like she THOUGHT she was trying to be a good wife by accommodating him. What person would think that was wrong?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> 
> Men who don't understand the importance and value of NVC aren't going to understand your message.
> 
> Those who do, will find your posts to be insightful, balanced and helpful.


As a woman, I don't see it. NVC is truly important, but it does not replace actual communication, which is even more important. If there is a problem, speak up! People need to actually talk instead of wanting people to read their minds. I really don't think that is a good message to send, that people should learn to be mind readers instead of having open communication with their spouse.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> Would that life were that black and white! It sounds like she THOUGHT she was trying to be a good wife by accommodating him. What person would think that was wrong?


How is she a "good wife" if she's so unhappy? Obviously something isn't right. Marriage isn't about being miserable and I would think everyone gets that. A relationship is give and take. Little kids know that, as they are taught to share and be kind. 

That's why I say it's so important to talk. To be open and honest about how you feel, instead of quietly hoping the other person will read your mind. That never goes well, as people are not mind readers.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> As a woman, I don't see it. NVC is truly important, but it does not replace actual communication, which is even more important. If there is a problem, speak up! People need to actually talk instead of wanting people to read their minds. I really don't think that is a good message to send, that people should learn to be mind readers instead of having open communication with their spouse.


It's not that we need to literally read minds. We simply need to be more in tune to the sublime.
In my opinion, true femininity is very sublime. Needing to circumvent that sublimity through frank conversation would take the fun out of it, from the female perspective, that is. (I think) (for some, not all)


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

UMP said:


> It's not that we need to literally read minds. We simply need to be more in tune to the sublime.
> In my opinion, true femininity is very sublime. Needing to circumvent that sublimity through frank conversation would take the fun out of it, from the female perspective, that is. (for some, not all)


It's good to be in tune with NVC, but it should never replace open communication. It's so easy to misread non verbal cues, so it's always better to talk about things verbally to make sure that things are understood. There are times I cross my arms because I'm feeling cold, not angry, so I wouldn't want my husband to just assume I'm feeling mad because of that. People still need to talk. You'll end up going in circles and having more problems if you are just relying on NVC.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I hope other LD's will feel free and safe enough to speak up and share their thoughts on this topic. Let me change the questions a bit. 

What effect has your spouse had, or do they have - if any - on your level of sexual desire? 

Do they have any effect on your level of sexual desire? 

Are there things they have done or have not done that has made you feel less desire for having sex with them? 

Are there things they have done or have not done that has made you feel more desire for having sex with them? 

Are there things they could do or say that would effect your level of sexual desire for the better?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> It's good to be in tune with NVC, but it should never replace open communication.


Why not? Why is your preferred communication the "better" one? Looks like MEM's approach to learn hers worked for him. "Open communication" has been demonstrated on this board to do no good whatsoever to help. I think this is even your very own experience.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

mary35 said:


> I hope other LD's will feel free and safe enough to speak up and share their thoughts on this topic. Let me change the questions a bit.
> 
> What effect has your spouse had, or do they have - if any - on your level of sexual desire?
> 
> Do they have any effect on your level of sexual desire?


Very much so. 



> Are there things they have done or have not done that has made you feel less desire for having sex with them?


No. He has always been a great mix of loving, caring, gentle and hot. Having, as I did, some less that wonderful experiences in the past, the fact that he cared more for ME than for experience was a huge factor in my trusting him enough to open up my feelings to him.


So not LD, but maybe counterpoint.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why not? Why is your preferred communication the "better" one? Looks like MEM's approach to learn hers worked for him. "Open communication" has been demonstrated on this board to do no good whatsoever to help. I think this is even your very own experience.


Why? Because it's easy to misread NVC. As I mentioned before, I sometimes cross my arms when I feel cold, but I'm not angry. Someone can see that and misread how I am feeling. You can't misread something a person tells you in a straightforward manner. "I don't like when you do x". You can't misinterpret that. 

I think it's horrible advice to say that people should rely more on NVC. Open communication is still more important.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> It's good to be in tune with NVC, but it should never replace open communication. It's so easy to misread non verbal cues, so it's always better to talk about things verbally to make sure that things are understood. There are times I cross my arms because I'm feeling cold, not angry, so I wouldn't want my husband to just assume I'm feeling mad because of that. People still need to talk. You'll end up going in circles and having more problems if you are just relying on NVC.


Yes, Indeed.
However, as an example, I need to learn that my wife knows a thousand times over that I want to have anal sex. I should be smart enough to know that I don't need to ask anymore, ever. If she wants it, she'll let me know, in her own way. It will probably happen like this......I'll spend and inordinate amount of time on foreplay, like an hour. We'll be at some hotel somewhere with no kids. She'll have consumed several drinks. She'll be panting like a Rob Ford in front of a buffet. She'll tip her bum up in the air and point. or, somehow someway she will slyly let me know without actually saying the word "anal" that she is ready. Until then, I can talk till my lips fall off and it won't make any difference. In fact, it will only delay the possibility.

But NOOOOO, I need to bring it up every now and again and piss her off. I should know better.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> I think it's horrible advice to say that people should rely more on NVC. Open communication is still more important.


But what do you do when your spouse refuses to tell you what they are thinking?

What do you do when they do not even know themselves why they feel the way they do?

That is where MEM's NVC comes in. He instinctively understands the emotions behind his wife's actions, perhaps even when she does not.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening QuietSoul
> I think some of the bashing comes from the fundamentally different view of sex from LDs and HDs. To HDs, sex is "easy" - they simply cannot understand why someone who loves them would not do such a simple thing to make their lives better. They conclude that it must be an effort at calculated control, or extreme selfishness.
> 
> Imagine you had an armload of groceries, and your partner who was standing right next to a closed door wouldn't open it for you. Normally this would be obnoxious behavior on their part - but if they were a quadriplegic it would make perfect sense, they COULDN'T open the door.
> ...


I don't understand this analogy. How is not being interested in sex like being a paraplegic? :scratchhead:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

skype said:


> But what do you do when your spouse refuses to tell you what they are thinking?
> 
> What do you do when they do not even know themselves why they feel the way they do?
> 
> That is where MEM's NVC comes in. He instinctively understands the emotions behind his wife's actions, perhaps even when she does not.


If MEM could right a book that teaches men this, Warren Buffett would look like a pauper.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> I don't understand how people get here. How do you wind up married to someone you are completely sexually incompatible with?


I know one way that often happens: one partner really isn't that interested in sex but "forgets" to mention that before the wedding.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

UMP said:


> Yes, Indeed.
> However, as an example, I need to learn that my wife knows a thousand times over that I want to have anal sex. I should be smart enough to know that I don't need to ask anymore, ever. If she wants it, she'll let me know, in her own way. It will probably happen like this......I'll spend and inordinate amount of time on foreplay, like an hour. We'll be at some hotel somewhere with no kids. She'll have consumed several drinks. She'll be panting like a Rob Ford in front of a buffet. She'll tip her bum up in the air and point. or, somehow someway she will slyly let me know without actually saying the word "anal" that she is ready. Until then, I can talk till my lips fall off and it won't make any difference. In fact, it will only delay the possibility.
> 
> But NOOOOO, I need to bring it up every now and again and piss her off. I should know better.


Your example does not make sense to me. You don't need to learn NVC, you need to learn to take your wife at her word. Your wife has a hard line of NO when it comes to anal sex, and you keep bugging her about it in the hopes that it will change. I doubt it will ever happen. I have the same hard line, will never want/have anal sex. The verbal and non-verbal cues will always be *no*.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

skype said:


> But what do you do when your spouse refuses to tell you what they are thinking?
> 
> What do you do when they do not even know themselves why they feel the way they do?
> 
> That is where MEM's NVC comes in. He instinctively understands the emotions behind his wife's actions, perhaps even when she does not.


You learn to communicate, not expect mind reading. 

You ask open ended questions, questions that require some introspection of the spouse so they can figure out what/how they feel, and so on. Ask the right questions and get better answers, to eventually get to the answer that is needed. 

I'm glad MEM's NVC works well in his marriage, but I do not think it is good advice for the general population. Straight forward communication is more important, since there is less room for error/misinterpretation.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening NobodySpecial
You fall in love with very little prior experience with relationships. Each of you is absolutely sure that once things settle down, your sex life will be the way *you* want it because you honestly believe that everyone thinks like you do.

The HD imagines regular wild sex, getting ever more adventuresome. You think this is normal. You think that in every loving relationship, people are eager to please their partner sexually. You think oral sex is something everyone does all the time - a completely normal part of lovemaking.

The LD imagines the sex life settling down to an occasional pleasant interlude every month or so. You think this is normal. You think that in a loving relationship people connect on a much deeper level than sex. You think that oral sex was invented by porn movies and isn't something normal people do.

Each of you is so sure that you are correct that you can't imagine the other side. 





NobodySpecial said:


> I don't understand how people get here. How do you wind up married to someone you are completely sexually incompatible with?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening NobodySpecial
> You fall in love with very little prior experience with relationships. Each of you is absolutely sure that once things settle down, your sex life will be the way *you* want it because you honestly believe that everyone thinks like you do.
> 
> The HD imagines regular wild sex, getting ever more adventuresome. You think this is normal. You think that in every loving relationship, people are eager to please their partner sexually. You think oral sex is something everyone does all the time - a completely normal part of lovemaking.
> ...


THAT is the problem. Right fighting is a marriage killer. There is no "correct". If you both are stuck in "correct" mode then there is no room for compromise, caring, thinking, brainstorming... It is my way or the highway.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening UMP
If you are with a true LD (as I am) it doesn't matter. Desperate and begging -> annoyance and no sex. Lots of pleasant non-sexual intimacy with no pressure -> happiness and no sex. 

There simply is no sex to be had from a true LD. The HD may behave in a way that makes the LD unhappy or happy, but there is not sex to be had. So might as well make the LD happy so at least one of you is - or leave. 




UMP said:


> True, but what to do when that "desperation" makes you look unattractive in the eyes of an LD wife?
> Kind of a "Catch-22"
> 
> Here is what I do. In times that I am desperate for sex and my wife is clearly not interested for whatever reason, I look back on the not too long ago times of great sex. I also try to place myself in her shoes. For example, my wife is currently in Florida visiting her sister along with our two daughters. What do you think I want the second she gets off the plane? Sex, of course.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening nobodyspecial
The solution is improved documentation / training. People need to be warned that sexual incompatibility should be treated as a show-stopper in a relationship, no matter what else is positive. Sexuality should be discussed before getting too emotionally committed. 

If this message could somehow get out to more people, there would be a LOT more happy relationships and a lot fewer miserable people. 




NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. But. HOW it happens is kind of important troubleshooting information. So I am in tech. When we get a problem, we don't just stab at it. Talk at the end user and hope the end user changes their behavior. We do root cause analysis. The HD people seem to think that whatever the LD's issues are should just be ignored. I will give you some examples:
> 
> 1. Religious people did not have sex before marriage. They did not talk about sex before marriage. They had no idea that they had different expectations. What do they do? Perhaps see a pastor to understand the role of sex in marriage for their denomination.
> 
> ...


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> You learn to communicate, not expect mind reading.
> 
> You ask open ended questions, questions that require some introspection of the spouse so they can figure out what/how they feel, and so on. Ask the right questions and get better answers, to eventually get to the answer that is needed.
> 
> I'm glad MEM's NVC works well in his marriage, but I do not think it is good advice for the general population. Straight forward communication is more important, since there is less room for error/misinterpretation.


Ah, if only it were that easy, there would be no need for a marriage forum or counselors.

People are complicated. They do not want to reveal what they are really thinking. They hide things from themselves and from others for so many reasons. 

MEM is a salesman. His financial success depended on being able to read people, read between the lines of verbal and non-verbal communication, to discover what they really wanted.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening NobodySpecial
> You fall in love with very little prior experience with relationships. Each of you is absolutely sure that once things settle down, your sex life will be the way *you* want it because you honestly believe that everyone thinks like you do.
> 
> The HD imagines regular wild sex, getting ever more adventuresome. You think this is normal. You think that in every loving relationship, people are eager to please their partner sexually. You think oral sex is something everyone does all the time - a completely normal part of lovemaking.
> ...


:iagree:

The thought process of the LD vs the HD is so different. I imagined our marriage to go one way and found out my husband's view was much different. We had a great sex life prior to marriage, but it all changed once we got married. His image was that sex would slow down, mine was that it would keep on going and get even better. One way is not more "right" or "correct" than the other, but they are just very different. It is difficult to imagine the other side.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening Anonymous07
Oh but it is. I let my wife know how I was feeling - I wasn't angry or anything, I just tried to explain what sex meant to me, how I got frustrated and resentful when it was too rare, what I would like to be happy.

3 days later she is still upset. Still not sleeping. Still complaining that she "doesn't know what you want", when she knows exactly what I want (since I told her) but doesn't want to do it. I told her it was OK if she couldn't, but she is going to be upset with me for weeks despite my apologizing for upsetting her. 

Look at coppertops wife. Unfortunately this sort of discussion can be extremely upsetting to LDs - and the reaction is sometimes very negative. 

Communicating has a huge risk. I will not try it again. 




Anonymous07 said:


> I don't think communication is all that hard to do. If you are unhappy, for what ever reason, you tell your spouse. You are married and it's a safe zone to talk. The "how": "Husband, I don't like when you do x". Not so difficult. Everything is out in the open.
> snip
> .


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening nobodyspecial
> The solution is improved documentation / training.


A <explitive> men. I was raised with NO sex ed. I took care of correcting that PRIOR to marriage. I do not preach celibacy to my kids, nor do I even think it is a good idea. One needn't be a total who' bag to learn while still young enough to not suffer life time consequences for ones mistakes.



> People need to be warned that sexual incompatibility should be treated as a show-stopper in a relationship, no matter what else is positive. Sexuality should be discussed before getting too emotionally committed.
> 
> If this message could somehow get out to more people, there would be a LOT more happy relationships and a lot fewer miserable people.


As unpopular as this opinion is, I think divorce should be less stigmatized. Staying married just to stay married is not worth wasting your life on. Take care of your kids, clearly. I would like to see forward process on divorce equity in jurisdictions where it is not equal.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anonymous07
> Oh but it is. I let my wife know how I was feeling - I wasn't angry or anything, I just tried to explain what sex meant to me, how I got frustrated and resentful when it was too rare, what I would like to be happy.
> 
> 3 days later she is still upset. Still not sleeping. Still complaining that she "doesn't know what you want", when she knows exactly what I want (since I told her) but doesn't want to do it.


You are right fighting again. You are blaming again. 



> I told her it was OK if she couldn't, but she is going to be upset with me for weeks despite my apologizing for upsetting her.


She has your number!



> Look at coppertops wife. Unfortunately this sort of discussion can be extremely upsetting to LDs - and the reaction is sometimes very negative.
> 
> Communicating has a huge risk. I will not try it again.


Just stating things does not work. Never has and never will.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

skype said:


> Ah, if only it were that easy, there would be no need for a marriage forum or counselors.
> 
> People are complicated. They do not want to reveal what they are really thinking. They hide things from themselves and from others for so many reasons.
> 
> MEM is a salesman. His financial success depended on being able to read people, read between the lines of verbal and non-verbal communication, to discover what they really wanted.


I am most definitely not saying it's easy. It is difficult, but I still find open verbal communication to be more important the NVC. 

My husband is one who can be difficult to get information out of. It is incredibly frustrating and while I can read him, I never rely on that alone to get to what he means/wants. I still make sure to talk with him to make sure I understand what it is that he feels.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> It's good to be in tune with NVC, but it should never replace open communication. It's so easy to misread non verbal cues, so it's always better to talk about things verbally to make sure that things are understood. There are times I cross my arms because I'm feeling cold, not angry, so I wouldn't want my husband to just assume I'm feeling mad because of that. People still need to talk. You'll end up going in circles and having more problems if you are just relying on NVC.


:iagree:

I think effective communication needs to be done at the lowest common denominator. If you are adept at verbal communication and NVC, but your partner is only adept at verbal communication, then verbal is where it needs to stay. 

If you're both trained psychics and can commune on the astral plane together--more power to you.

Edit: I should have said the highest common denominator. As both partners grow in their communication skills, elevating the communication level is fine. I just think that meaningful communication can only be achieved when both people are speaking the same language.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evenign technovelist
This is back to the impossibility of finding something equivalent to sex. 

The argument is:

My wife know that regular sex would make me happy. In particular that spending 15 minutes giving me oral would make me very happy.

My wife wants to make me happy, she has said so many times and put lots of effort into doing so in many other ways. 

Since the 15 minutes of oral does not represent a huge physical exertion, or significant discomfort, I have to assume that she is psychologically unable to do this. 

I am mapping this psychological limitation onto a physical limitation -someone who is physically unable to perform a task that many people find trivial. 


(for the record, no, even according to her there is nothing that I can do for her that I do not already do).




technovelist said:


> I don't understand this analogy. How is not being interested in sex like being a paraplegic? :scratchhead:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> I am most definitely not saying it's easy. It is difficult, but I still find open verbal communication to be more important the NVC.
> 
> My husband is one who can be difficult to get information out of. It is incredibly frustrating and while I can read him, I never rely on that alone to get to what he means/wants. I still make sure to talk with him to make sure I understand what it is that he feels.


I think what is more important is not what kind of communication is *right or better*. But the one that works for the partners involved. MEM was able to help his wife to feel accepted by learning a new skill. That is important.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A7,

It has to be both. 

That's a key theme on the TV series 'Lie to me'

You can tell WHAT someone is: happy, sad, angry, frightened

But you have to ask to discover WHY

We can point fingers all day, but not sure how that helps. 


QUOTE=Anonymous07;12328138]Why? Because it's easy to misread NVC. As I mentioned before, I sometimes cross my arms when I feel cold, but I'm not angry. Someone can see that and misread how I am feeling. You can't misread something a person tells you in a straightforward manner. "I don't like when you do x". You can't misinterpret that. 

I think it's horrible advice to say that people should rely more on NVC. Open communication is still more important.[/QUOTE]


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evenign technovelist
> This is back to the impossibility of finding something equivalent to sex.
> 
> The argument is:
> ...


What about PIV sex? I understand that a lot of women don't like giving (or in some cases receiving) oral...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening
No, not if she isn't in the mood / aroused - it would be uncomfortable (which is certainly true). Using her hands might be OK, except I'm too slow that way and she gets tired.



technovelist said:


> What about PIV sex? I understand that a lot of women don't like giving (or in some cases receiving) oral...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening QuietSoul
> I think some of the bashing comes from the fundamentally different view of sex from LDs and HDs. To HDs, sex is "easy" - they simply cannot understand why someone who loves them would not do such a simple thing to make their lives better. They conclude that it must be an effort at calculated control, or extreme selfishness.
> 
> Imagine you had an armload of groceries, and your partner who was standing right next to a closed door wouldn't open it for you. Normally this would be obnoxious behavior on their part - but if they were a quadriplegic it would make perfect sense, they COULDN'T open the door.
> ...


I like this metaphor! A lot better than what I was coming up with.

Now imagine that the grocery-carrier always complained and called the quadriplegic selfish for never opening doors for them, and insisted that door opening is the only way they experience love, no matter what else the quadriplegic generously provided for them.

Imagine that the quadriplegic, despite this attitude, helpfully suggested installing some kind of electronic door opener that they could operate themselves so they could open the door for the grocery-carrier.

Now imagine that the grocery-carrier decided that sounded like too much work or would cost too much and never did it.

Everybody insists they are not the one with the problem and waits around for the other person to change first.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Based on this, other discussions, and interactions with my wife - NOTHING I do can change how she feels about sex. Nothing. *She literally could not think of a single thing that I could change, do, not do etc*.
> 
> Somehow people need to figure out if their partners are "situational" or "true" LD. Those with situational LD partners can change things, can make them better. Those with true LD partner cannot, and will only become resentful by trying.
> 
> I wonder if situational LD people also have a difficult time understanding true LDs.


Couldn't think of anything she was willing to say, you mean. Maybe there was a lot she didn't want to say because it would hurt your feelings, and women are often socially conditioned not to do that. Or maybe she felt it was too humiliating to her to mention.

But if there really truly is no reason the LD person can think of that might be fixable, maybe it's a medical issue. Or maybe seeing a sex therapist would help. But seeking third party assistance of that sort requires the LD person to want to change. Being told over and over that they must change tends to make a person resistant to doing so.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> Your whole premise seems to center around your *husband being some kind of mind reader *with no sexual experience knowing what to do to make you happy. *'He just should have known' is the vibe I get from you. *So, since he obviously didn't, why exactly did you wait so many years to simply say something instead of just shutting down a very important part of married life (and life in general)?
> 
> So what? You still made the thread title now, and it still comes off as blaming your husband for your sexual problems back then.
> 
> ...


No, telepathy is not required. But every human being who expresses love OUGHT to have some empathy, and be able to see when their loved one isn't having any fun.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Skype,
That is very kind of you. 

NVC skills did not come to me naturally. I worked hard at them.

I want to extend your theme - about people and how we communicate. And sadly, often fail to communicate or worse utterly miscommunicate. Because I 100% agree with your point. 

The example below is a common scenario for us. 

M2 - who is a bit anxious at times - is having a low grade anxiety attack. 

1. I give her 100% of my attention 
2. Soft / soothing tone of voice 
3. Long full body hug
4. Soft back massage while getting her to talk
5. Last but not least - AFTER she's calm - I ask: Is there anything I can do for you? 

In terms of impact, 80% of that magic is in the NVC. 

As for anyone who still wants to argue about how critical NVC is:

I'm giving you a choice, and you have to select either A or B below. 
A) Your spouse tells you every day for a week that you are sexy and they find you desirable. But they don't have sex with you.
B) Your spouse has sex with you once that week, and clearly passionately loves it - EVEN though they don't explicitly compliment you in words. 

The thing is - most HD folks will take (B) without a seconds hesitation. 

Words themselves aren't all that valuable....


QUOTE=skype;12329482]Ah, if only it were that easy, there would be no need for a marriage forum or counselors.

People are complicated. They do not want to reveal what they are really thinking. They hide things from themselves and from others for so many reasons. 

MEM is a salesman. His financial success depended on being able to read people, read between the lines of verbal and non-verbal communication, to discover what they really wanted.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

QFT 

QUOTE=Hopeful Cynic;12331906]No, telepathy is not required. But every human being who expresses love OUGHT to have some empathy, and be able to see when their loved one isn't having any fun.[/QUOTE]


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

It would be nice if the LD partner would show his/her cards during courtship so as to allow the HD partner to decide whether to marry him/her or not.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Lack of communication is at the core of so many marital problems, including tension between LD and HD partners. 

But once you learn to communicate, develop the trust to be fully transparent, and lay it all on the line . . . sometimes over communicating can become a problem. 

That is us. I HATE talking about certain issues with him. We will NEVER see eye to eye. But nor do I want to let resentment fester, because for me there is NO bigger libido killer and I refuse to go back to being LD because of something I can control. 

I've found that I need his help in keeping resentment at bay, and he's been really, really willing to help. Like MEM, it involves him reading my NVC when I'm getting frustrated or worried about a "danger issue" and helping me dispel the negative emotions. He absolutely has to use physical touch to do this--sometimes gentle, sometimes not, sometimes sexual, sometimes not. Figuring this out about myself, communicating it to him, and being able to come up with a protocol that we both agree on so that we DON'T have to talk about the "black hole" issues has been a huge relief. 

I think it's not uncommon for the LD spouse to know exactly what is turning them off (or what they need in order to be turned on), but communicating that to their spouses involves maneuvering through an emotional minefield that has resulted in injury so many times that they've given up on that path.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anonymous07
> Oh but it is. I let my wife know how I was feeling - I wasn't angry or anything, I just tried to explain what sex meant to me, how I got frustrated and resentful when it was too rare, what I would like to be happy.
> 
> 3 days later she is still upset. Still not sleeping. Still complaining that she "doesn't know what you want", when she knows exactly what I want (since I told her) but doesn't want to do it. I told her it was OK if she couldn't, but she is going to be upset with me for weeks despite my apologizing for upsetting her.
> ...


Richard...I'm so sorry you are going through this. You obviously love her so much. However, the long term silent treatment for speaking up about her not meeting your legitimate emotional needs is straight up abusive. You - in your love for her - believe that you understand her and understand "why she's this way", so you excuse it and allow it.

But you are within a fog and are allowing abuse.

I'm not saying she knows this is abuse either, but it is and you need help somehow. At least help in the form of seeing that her doing this to you is completely unreasonable and causes you pain and you should politely but firmly demand that she stop with the silent treatment, that you will not tolerate it, you are both adults.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I think it's not uncommon for the LD spouse to know exactly what is turning them off (or what they need in order to be turned on), but communicating that to their spouses involves maneuvering through an emotional minefield that has resulted in injury so many times that they've given up on that path.


I've never been LD, but there have been times I haven't wanted to have sex with someone I was in a relationship with. When I was in my 20's, I was never very successful in explaining how and why I was getting turned on or off. I did try to explain it...I offered everything I could think of to explain it...but somehow "they" never got it. Sometimes it was emotional stuff...sometimes physical...sometimes I was just too confused myself to explain it.

I do not know now if I was just super immature, or a horrible communicator, or "they" were just unable to understand...probably all of that. A lot of it had to do with hygiene and smell issues, and these were hard for me to talk about at that age, just due to immaturity I guess.

In my 30's, I began to get better at communicating what turned me on and off...or "they" began getting better at listening...or both.

But I really learned how to express myself sexually, verbally and otherwise, from my sex god hubby (I was 37 when I met him). Now I can see how easy it really should have always been to just say and be and express myself...but I had no example to follow before that. I love communicating now, and we're really in synch.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Hopeful,

I see it just like you do. 

All,
This isn't a thread jack. This cuts to a core aspect of a common type of LD / HD disconnect. 

Since Skype mentioned my sales training, I'd like to share a few things that I learned at work - which were every bit as relevant to my marriage and our sex life as they were to my job. 

Let's start with a common issue between a supplier and customer. 

Over promising and under delivering has eroded trust. 

The rookie MEM asked a very direct, totally counterproductive question in a couple face to face meetings with different customers.

Do you trust us? 

That question is terrible for a few reasons:
1. It's ambiguous 
2. It's emotionally loaded

Trust - consists of two distinct components:
- Competence
- Integrity

All the integrity in the world, can't compensate for a lack of competence. 

The experienced MEM took a different approach:
- In the last year, I believe our team has dropped the ball as far as execution goes 
- We'd like to improve your confidence that we will do what we say we'll do, by defining some short term goals and delivering. 
- Are you open to that? 

Acknowledge the issue, ask if they'll work with you to resolve it. 

-------
If sexual frequency sucks it's usually because the sexual experience isn't that good for the LD spouse. 

In SOME cases, it's just the initiation that is difficult. In others - it is more than that. 

And yet - HD folks RUN AWAY from that conversation. 

On my best day, in my best suit, with my most sparkling smile, I would never try to sell M2 the idea that: 

I totally love her AND I want her to increase the frequency of an activity that she clearly dislikes. 

Sorry but - if I'm going down this path, at best I could MAYBE sell her on the idea that I love her, but I love me MORE and my unmet need is making me miserable. 

Even that - couldn't do with a straight face. 

What I COULD do is say what's true and then ask some questions:

It's obvious that at least some part of, maybe most of our sexual encounters aren't all that fun for you. I already know that's true. It would help me a lot to know WHY, even if it's not really fixable. 

There is one thing I want you to know before I ask you anything. I'm sorry I didn't ask all this way back at the beginning when we started to have conflict over frequency. That's on me, not on you. And no matter what you tell me, I promise not to say: Why the heck didn't you tell me that 10 years ago. 

The only thing will leave me feeling disappointed tonight is if you don't believe I can handle the truth, so you leave me in the dark. 

----------

Maybe you feel like you have to pretend to be more turned on than you are, including pretending to orgasm. Maybe you feel rushed or I touch you in certain spots too soon. Or to hard, or to soft. 

Maybe I'm too anxious or too obviously turned on. 

----------

That script - that's a compressed version of the type of communication M2 and I had incrementally ove the years. 

Same as when I cook for you. If you don't like salty food, I don't salt your food. If you dislike spicy, the cayenne pepper only gets sprinkled on my portion. 

I ask those food preference questions of M2 and the kids - so I can cook the food they most like to eat. 

It's not about me. 




Hopeful Cynic said:


> Couldn't think of anything she was willing to say, you mean. Maybe there was a lot she didn't want to say because it would hurt your feelings, and women are often socially conditioned not to do that. Or maybe she felt it was too humiliating to her to mention.
> 
> But if there really truly is no reason the LD person can think of that might be fixable, maybe it's a medical issue. Or maybe seeing a sex therapist would help. But seeking third party assistance of that sort requires the LD person to want to change. Being told over and over that they must change tends to make a person resistant to doing so.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> ----------
> 
> Same as when I cook for you. If you don't like salty food, I don't salt your food. If you dislike spicy, the cayenne pepper only gets sprinkled on my portion.
> 
> ...


What if it *is* about you...about you not asserting yourself? Just as an example running off of your example...sometimes the issue that an LD wife cannot seem to communicate is "stop pandering to me".

These issues are difficult to discuss.

Very few couples have the exact same dynamic as others.

Some wives want their husbands to pick them up and throw them over their shoulder and carry them off to bed.

Some wives want their husbands to never, EVER touch them like that and instead, always be the most respectful and honorable man...and lover.

If a man has an LD wife, that particular duo of individual tastes and needs and desires and history together cooks up their chemistry soup. When the chemistry is off, sometimes it just is. Sometimes it really wasn't ever there, the couple were just flooded with new relationship hormones in the first couple of years.

So it ends up being really hard for people to find advice for their particular situation.

I did love your questions and other statements in that post, too, and for certain couples, those questions would be so appropriate and even romantic.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> For the record, I think religion is a real contributor to many people's unhealthy sex attitudes and sex lives. I know it is very unpopular to say. But the truth is, many religions actively seek to keep people uninformed about the facts of biology as well as the marital expectation around sex. Men are told, get married then you get to have sex which you cannot have until you are married. Women are told, get married and you can have babies which you cannot have until you are married. And women, btw sex is not supposed to be fun for you. You are just supposed to it out of the goodness of your heart and hope for a baby.
> 
> Mary. Does any of this sound familiar?


It's hard to know how much religion contributes to this. I now that I've read from some people who were told these nonsensical things.

But I also know that in my life, that's not my experience. Different religions are different. When I married the priest told us that anything we do between us, that we both agree on, it good. Sex is good. Go have lots of it.

It just depends.

Secular society has some screwy ideas too. I had a BIL who believes that the female orgasm is the invention of feminism. He believes women do not enjoy sex and that they just service men. So for their entire marriage, he refused to do anything for my sister sexually. If she moved, made any noise or tied to enjoy sex he'd yell at her.

He was never religious at all. This was social conditioning that he had growing up. It was a very common way of thinking about women and sex for a very long time.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



altawa said:


> That is the common mistake: I am not angry. But, I am not afraid to call out bullsh!t either. She actively refused to talk to her husband about problems SHE was having in their sex life, and is blaming her husband for it. That is not LD. She let it turn into LD, and that is on her, not him. It is a false premise for this thread. I don't think the thread topic is a bad one, but I think the example chosen is a poor one.


Her husband also knew that there was a problem. He also did not talk with her or do things to find out what the problems were.

As Mary said, they both did things wrong. It's a two way street.

The OP example is actually very typical of what happens to the sex lives in a lot of marriages.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

FW,

It took me a long time - years - to realize M2 liked being taken. 

And that you can take without - rushing - or even being rough. 

Dominant just means dominant. 

Rough is a separate dimension. 

M2 likes very dominant - mildly rough. 

That's not my default at all. 

I flexed - M2 was happier - we had more sex. Funny how that works. 

Just because you're taking someone doesn't change the importance of it being a good experience for them. 






Faithful Wife said:


> What if it *is* about you...about you not asserting yourself? Just as an example running off of your example...sometimes the issue that an LD wife cannot seem to communicate is "stop pandering to me".
> 
> These issues are difficult to discuss.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a happy/sad HD/LD story to share. I think this story will have some insights for some people.

A male friend who was the HD and his very religious wife who was LD. Wife had CSA in her past, husband had sexual shame. For the first 15 years, the wife was intolerable about sex and the husband suffered in silence. Then he had his ah-ha moments, read NMMNG, Divorce Busting, and dozens of others, and he put in the most valiant man-up/180 plan I've ever seen. He told her of his plan, and how he planned to win her heart and body.

He realized that he had let her down in major ways during the early years...had been a subpar father, had not taken much interest in her as a person, acted with seething resentment most of the time. He worked to over come all of that.

Then he got her to MC and ST and they worked on their stuff, individual and together. She opened up about her CSA but also, her desire to be taken forcibly, and other acts the husband wasn't really into (or at least, not in the way she wanted it). It surprised him to hear that this woman who wouldn't even touch him or kiss him wanted these strange sexual things. He did his best, she did her best, they tried to meet in the middle.

Sometimes it was good. But mostly it wasn't. Neither of them knew (or could admit) why.

All this time, he felt he was doing the right and honorable thing and holding his family together. He accidentally built a sort of over-reaching covert contract upon this. So when the sex never really got better enough for his tastes (compared to how much he had changed for her, from his perspective), he felt very betrayed and all the resentment he had worked for years to get rid of, came back.

They began an in house separation.

He worked on himself, this time really for himself, not to make her want to have a good sex life with him.

He got in shape. He detached from her. He finally decided, he was leaving.

There was some anger and such, a few more fights...but ultimately she let him go. And after the dust settled...by now this is over 20 years together...she admitted to him that she just wasn't that into him that way. And never was. Sorry.

She did love him and that's why she tried with him all those years (and for some of it she really did try)...but this was why there was never any of the passion he was hoping for.

I don't know if she could get hot for anyone. She seems like the type who could just go without. I believe she probably will remain single now that they are divorced. She seems fine with masturbation alone.

This story is why I cringe sometimes when I read about some of the people who have been hanging around for decades trying to "fix" something that perhaps was never whole to begin with. She married him because he came along at the right time in her life...but HE did the same thing at the time.

But here's the happy ending...

After the divorce was all settled up and he was a free man, he dated a few lovely women and had some great sex with women who WERE into him...and after a short amount of time met the love of his life who is a beautiful sex kitten who is totally into him and has her own life experiences that somewhat match his (ie: out of a bad sex marriage). She also matches his intelligence, is age appropriate and she literally looks like she was made especially to be in his arms.

They are getting married this summer.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening hopeful cynic
One detail though is that the limitation is invisible and very specific. It is obvious that a quadriplegic cannot help open doors, but it is not obvious that a LD cannot have sex.

I don't see the analogy to the electric door opener though. Usually in LD/HD situations the LD does not want their partner to be with anyone else or to use porn. 



Hopeful Cynic said:


> I like this metaphor! A lot better than what I was coming up with.
> 
> Now imagine that the grocery-carrier always complained and called the quadriplegic selfish for never opening doors for them, and insisted that door opening is the only way they experience love, no matter what else the quadriplegic generously provided for them.
> 
> ...


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening
Possible, but if so, it is beyond my ability to figure out what it is. 




Hopeful Cynic said:


> Couldn't think of anything she was willing to say, you mean. Maybe there was a lot she didn't want to say because it would hurt your feelings, and women are often socially conditioned not to do that. Or maybe she felt it was too humiliating to her to mention.
> 
> .


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening faithful wife
I am also aware that her behavior could be due to pure selfishness. It also matches all the data. 

That is part of the problem - it is very difficult to distinguish selfish / controlling LD, from "real" LD from the perspective of their partner.

I am in love, but it is not blind love. I am going to see how this latest problem settles out and decide what I think is really going on and what I should do. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Richard...I'm so sorry you are going through this. You obviously love her so much. However, the long term silent treatment for speaking up about her not meeting your legitimate emotional needs is straight up abusive. You - in your love for her - believe that you understand her and understand "why she's this way", so you excuse it and allow it.
> 
> But you are within a fog and are allowing abuse.
> 
> I'm not saying she knows this is abuse either, but it is and you need help somehow. At least help in the form of seeing that her doing this to you is completely unreasonable and causes you pain and you should politely but firmly demand that she stop with the silent treatment, that you will not tolerate it, you are both adults.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

As usual you've raised a brilliant point via the happy/sad story. 

I believe there is a path to quickly determining whether someone is into YOU, or is instead into the benefits package you offer. 

For instance, the conversation about sex is relatively easy if the issues pertain to what I'm DOING as long as my partner believes that I have both a thick skin and a sincere desire to understand what they want. 

It's painful and counterproductive if the issues pertain to what I AM. 

Almost impossible to get someone to say: I'm not attracted to you, never really have been. Your appearance, your voice, your scent, your affect, none of these things do it for me. 

Because with almost anybody - you say that and it's game over. 

To be fair, people are complicated and it's rare that the issues are solely in one or the other bucket. 

But generally speaking I believe this: 

If you really are solid and sincere about trying to understand how your actions are contributing to the issue 
AND
You are being stonewalled by a partner who claims not to know what the issues are. A partner who is making little to no effort to work with you. 
Then 
For your own sanity you should speak that truth for them. 

If you show the courage to speak that type of truth to a partner typically they won't deny it. Even a partner who never in a million years would volunteer such a thing - will face the truth - when faced with the truth. Even if they can't bring themselves to confirm it, they won't look you in the eye and lie about something so - core. 








Faithful Wife said:


> I have a happy/sad HD/LD story to share. I think this story will have some insights for some people.
> 
> A male friend who was the HD and his very religious wife who was LD. Wife had CSA in her past, husband had sexual shame. For the first 15 years, the wife was intolerable about sex and the husband suffered in silence. Then he had his ah-ha moments, read NMMNG, Divorce Busting, and dozens of others, and he put in the most valiant man-up/180 plan I've ever seen. He told her of his plan, and how he planned to win her heart and body.
> 
> ...


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> My wife does not want to tell me certain things. She wants me to figure it out on my own. Is this right or wrong? You would probably call it wrong or bullsh!t and I would agree with you.
> However, it does not take away it's reality.
> That's all I am saying. However f$cked up it is, it does not change the reality of it existing in real time with real people in real marriages all across the world.
> All that said, I am becoming a damn good mind reader, if I do say so myself


You're right, it's bullsh!t. If you have to be a mind reader to stay in the marriage, then screw it. 


skype said:


> She didn't know HOW to talk to him, just like he didn't know how to talk to her about their sexual problems. This thread is not to blame the HD, but to give them insight into the LD mindset, and offer suggestions about how to open a discussion about sex.
> 
> Each person assumes that if my spouse loves me, he/she would understand how I feel. But it does not necessarily work out that way. You have to do the hard work of communicating. Sex is incredibly difficult to talk about because we are so vulnerable to misunderstanding and rejection. Mary is offering a way for HDs to learn how to talk to their LDs.


No.....communication is not some ancient art. It is simple. If she had tried and he rebuffed it, I would give her a lot more credit. She never even tried, but has no problem complaining that he never tried. My sex life with my wife isn't what I want it to be, but you know what, at least I tell her and talk to her about it....it isn't some fvcking secret that I am going to throw in her face years later.


mary35 said:


> Altawa,
> 
> I appreciate your comments. I am sure you speak for many. I have tried to answer your questions and explain myself the best I can.
> 
> ...


Oh, I fully know why you see it the way you do, I just highly doubt you would agree with me.


MEM11363 said:


> Altawa,
> 
> I believe you have an opportunity to really help the HD community here. To do that, I'm going to ask you to do an exercise with me.
> 
> ...


I'm not playing games with you about NVC. I have plenty of experience with NVC, up to and including figuring out which guy is going to run and which guy is going to fight. The fact of the matter is, NVC will never be superior to verbal communication when it comes to direct, clear, concise transmission of a message from the sender to the receiver. NVC can be ambiguous, misinterpreted, and in cases where people are manipulative, lied about. With verbal communication, there is exponentially reduced margin for error. Nobody should be expected to be a mind reader to figure out their spouse if their spouse isn't happy to the point of shutting down their sex life, especially when that same spouse has been on here stating how they controlled the majority of that sex life in the first place.


NobodySpecial said:


> Ok. So if you were her DH, what would you DO with this "on her" business? What does that GET you (rhetorically you)?


What difference does it make? He isn't here, she is. She is the one that started this thread. My point is that she shouldn't be stating an opinion as fact that an HD husband (or wife for that matter) needs to be a mind reader to figure out how to snap their LD wife (or husband) out of their LD situation. It is also noted that she implied earlier that all LD's (in her opinion) are probably LD for the same reason she was, and I think her painting with that broad brush is disrespectful as well. 

I mean seriously, lets look at this boiled down:

Two virgins get married, probably young. We all know how much it takes a guy to get off, especially a virgin (mostly). We all also know that it takes considerably more to get a woman off, mostly (statistics show that a fair amount of women to not orgasm from PIV and need other stimulation....lots of guys do not know this, I have no doubt most virgins don't know this). Neither has any experience, but she surely knows she isnt getting what she wants. He doesn't, but instead of telling him, she expects him to ask her or to just know. When it doesnt happen, she just continues to keep quiet. And waits, and waits, and waits. Yeah, what could go wrong, huh.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> No, telepathy is not required. But every human being who expresses love OUGHT to have some empathy, and be able to see when their loved one isn't having any fun.


So, because he didn't recognize that, it's ok for her to have a double standard where she expected him to have verbal communication about it but she never said a word?


EleGirl said:


> Her husband also knew that there was a problem. He also did not talk with her or do things to find out what the problems were.
> 
> As Mary said, they both did things wrong. It's a two way street.
> 
> The OP example is actually very typical of what happens to the sex lives in a lot of marriages.


You know that he knew this how, exactly? I don't see that anywhere in her posts. I see that eventually, after decades, they went to counseling. Counseling that they probably could have avoided if she had communicated decades earlier. Beyond that, it still goes back to my first statements of this is not a LD problem, it is a communication problem that she turned into a LD problem. I still think the thread topic is a good one, but this example is one of the poorest that could be used for it since the impetus for the 'LD' was a blatant lack of communication at all on her part.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

And, another thing. If you (generic 'you', nobody in particular) don't agree with me, think I am wrong, whatever, fine. I don't care. I don't need affirmation, I don't need pats on the back, and I don't need any kind of cheering section. But I stand by my analysis.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Altawa,

Your facility with words is excellent but your tone is hostile and combative. Read warning at bottom of post. 

So let's you and I stick with words. 

The most powerful demonstration of M2's love for me is sex. Sometimes we talk a little bit during, but not always. 

Her message delivered via sex, is direct, clear, concise and powerful. 

It would be foolish, hypocritical and dangerous for me to ONLY scan the NVC channel for signs of sexual interest. 

This is what M2 would say to me if I did THAT. 

How come you instantly notice when I give you that special 'look' but are blind to all my other NVC transmissions? How come you don't notice when I'm sad, or upset or anxious or angry? 

How come you have an ENDLESS appetite for having sex and yet put so little effort into understanding how YOU can make ME feel better, happier, loved using NVC outside the bedroom? 

But that's just M2, she's big on reciprocity. 

Here's what I believe to be true about you:
1. You are very angry about your sex life - which hasn't improved much despite repeated attempts to 'talk your way to glory' using those superior verbal skills.
2. You're lashing out at Mary because she's a SAFE proxy for the woman who's rejecting you.


*This is your first and only warning. Stop lashing out at other folks or stop posting on this thread. *





altawa said:


> You're right, it's bullsh!t. If you have to be a mind reader to stay in the marriage, then screw it.
> 
> No.....communication is not some ancient art. It is simple. If she had tried and he rebuffed it, I would give her a lot more credit. She never even tried, but has no problem complaining that he never tried. My sex life with my wife isn't what I want it to be, but you know what, at least I tell her and talk to her about it....it isn't some fvcking secret that I am going to throw in her face years later.
> 
> ...


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

chaos said:


> It would be nice if the LD partner would show his/her cards during courtship so as to allow the HD partner to decide whether to marry him/her or not.


That will NEVER happen, because the HD partner would be almost certain (as in 99.9% proability) to back out.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> Altawa,
> 
> Your facility with words is excellent but your tone is hostile and combative. Read warning at bottom of post.
> 
> ...


1. You know absolutely nothing about me.
2. I am not lashing out at anybody. I am responding to the posts she has made, and her blanket accusations that she has posted (including that all LD's are LD's because of their HD spouses, and that she isn't blaming her husband, except where she is). 
2a. I am also responding to everybody else that has seen fit to quote me, and am responding directly to what they have posted to me. I also don't see that as lashing out. Having an opposing opinion is not lashing out. I find it interesting that it is ok to paint all HD's in a disrespectful light, but to respond to that is wrong.

ETA: apparently echo chamber comments are the only ones that are welcome in this thread. I guess my voice just doesn't echo.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm HD, my wife went from HD (first 5 years), to low HD, next 5 years, to LD - present. Not sure why she went LD - probably just life, kids, job, routine. I'll never know because she doesn't communicate. So, I definitely made it worse, but pushing sex every two weeks...  Anyway, she hated sex at the end, because she felt constantly under pressure. I wasn't putting her under pressure, I kind of expected to have sex twice a month... not much to ask? But she felt pressurised. Yes, I used to get upset and angry when it didn't happen. Not in a physical way. I was just sad and upset. Felt rejected. Obviously that made things a lot worse. If I was nice to her, it was just because I wanted sex. And it wasn't true. Then she went on ADs for OCD. That was the end of it.

I don't pressurise her about sex any more. I don't ask. She tells me when she thinks we ought to have it. Which is generally once a month...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Anonymous07 said:


> It's good to be in tune with NVC, but it should never replace open communication. It's so easy to misread non verbal cues, so it's always better to talk about things verbally to make sure that things are understood. There are times I cross my arms because I'm feeling cold, not angry, so I wouldn't want my husband to just assume I'm feeling mad because of that. People still need to talk. You'll end up going in circles and having more problems if you are just relying on NVC.


You are right. This is one of the points I was trying to make. I didn't speak up and remained unsatisfied. He didn't speak up and remained unsatisfied. Had either of us, or better yet, both of us verbally communicated better, would things have been different? Since neither of us did - we will never know, will we?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> Your example does not make sense to me. You don't need to learn NVC, you need to learn to take your wife at her word. Your wife has a hard line of NO when it comes to anal sex, and you keep bugging her about it in the hopes that it will change. I doubt it will ever happen. I have the same hard line, will never want/have anal sex. The verbal and non-verbal cues will always be *no*.


I don't believe that, necessarily.
My wife likes things to happen naturally, especially sex. There have been several hard line "NO's" that have changed to "yes, yes, YES, YESSS!!" I simply need to heed my own advice and stop talking about it. She loves her salad tossed and loves small items placed in said location. It's only a matter of time:smthumbup:
Trust me, TAM will be the first to hear about it.
Till them, mums the word.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

skype said:


> But what do you do when your spouse refuses to tell you what they are thinking?
> 
> What do you do when they do not even know themselves why they feel the way they do?
> 
> That is where MEM's NVC comes in. He instinctively understands the emotions behind his wife's actions, perhaps even when she does not.


One way I have had success talking about sex and relationship questions with my wife is by way of third persons.
For example, she has an old high school friend that has not had sex with her husband in years. We will talk about her in a way that we place ourselves in their position and say what we think they will do, should do, etc. It's done in a way to convey OUR own thoughts about sex and relationship without actually admitting it's something WE ourselves would want or do with each other.
Another example: we'll be watching tv and she will see a guy without a shirt on saying "he's fat". It's her way, without directly telling me that I need to lose more weight. If you saw me, you would not say I was fat. However, my wife finds a thin more muscular man more attractive (lucky me)
She, in her own sublime covert way has just told me to lose some more f$cking weight so she can be more attracted to me.
Years ago that would have flown right over my head.
Not now:smthumbup:


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

chaos said:


> It would be nice if the LD partner would show his/her cards during courtship so as to allow the HD partner to decide whether to marry him/her or not.


Many don't have the cards to show before marriage.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening NobodySpecial
> You fall in love with very little prior experience with relationships. Each of you is absolutely sure that once things settle down, your sex life will be the way *you* want it because you honestly believe that everyone thinks like you do.
> 
> The HD imagines regular wild sex, getting ever more adventuresome. You think this is normal. You think that in every loving relationship, people are eager to please their partner sexually. You think oral sex is something everyone does all the time - a completely normal part of lovemaking.
> ...


You have forgotten one item. #ROUTINE#
As the HD or in my case, ME has to figure out how to make love to the SAME woman and ONLY that woman in a way that it feels like new love every friggen time. That is our challenge. In my particular case, I believe I dropped the ball because sex became very boring and routine. 
ROUTINE will kill a married sex life. 

As Paul Newman once said, and I paraphrase "Any old dog can bed a bunch of different women, but it takes a real man to keep one woman happy for a lifetime."

How to do that is my quest and why I am here.
I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I'm a hell of a lot better than I used to be because of this sight and others.

Keep on truckin !


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The thought process of the LD vs the HD is so different. I imagined our marriage to go one way and found out my husband's view was much different. We had a great sex life prior to marriage, but it all changed once we got married. His image was that sex would slow down, mine was that it would keep on going and get even better. One way is not more "right" or "correct" than the other, but they are just very different. It is difficult to imagine the other side.


I think ROUTINE does this. I have a sports car that I bought at a young age, 31 years ago. When I drove off the lot I nearly pissed my pants. I have never been so high driving a car. 31 years later, I still have that same car. It runs great. How often do you think I drive it?? 

Maybe a total of 100 miles in a year, maybe That's it.
Why did this happen? A car that I dreamed about for years and enjoyed for years, that sits. I see it every day of my life and I hardly ever want to drive it. I only drive it because I have to or it will fall apart. I won't sell it because it has many memories attached to it. I love that car, but I'm not IN LOVE with it.

I think sex in marriage is similar to my analogy.

We have to find a way to bust the routine and make things new again.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

altawa said:


> So, because he didn't recognize that, it's ok for her to have a double standard where she expected him to have verbal communication about it but she never said a word?
> 
> You know that he knew this how, exactly? I don't see that anywhere in her posts. I see that eventually, after decades, they went to counseling. Counseling that they probably could have avoided if she had communicated decades earlier. Beyond that, it still goes back to my first statements of this is not a LD problem, it is a communication problem that she turned into a LD problem. I still think the thread topic is a good one, but this example is one of the poorest that could be used for it since the impetus for the 'LD' was a blatant lack of communication at all on her part.


Since you are placing such a superior value on verbal communication why are both parties to the relationship not equally responsible for making sure that communication occurs? Marriage is suppose to be a safe place to communicate, but often that is not the case. Both parties bring their own baggage and preconceived notions of how each spouse is supposed to behave.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Since you are placing such a superior value on verbal communication why are both parties to the relationship not equally responsible for making sure that communication occurs? Marriage is suppose to be a safe place to communicate, but often that is not the case. Both parties bring their own baggage and preconceived notions of how each spouse is supposed to behave.


Sorry, my comments aren't echo chamber approved......no more participation from me.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

skype said:


> Ah, if only it were that easy, there would be no need for a marriage forum or counselors.
> 
> People are complicated. They do not want to reveal what they are really thinking. They hide things from themselves and from others for so many reasons.
> 
> MEM is a salesman. His financial success depended on being able to read people, read between the lines of verbal and non-verbal communication, to discover what they really wanted.


Problem is that he is a top notch salesmen, so he is in the upper fraction of 1%. Most people are not top notch salesmen and are not trained to read behavioral nuances like him. therefore these methods will not work for most people?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Altawa, 
This is for you. Enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i123SB8pL34


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> As Paul Newman once said, and I paraphrase "Any *man as attractive as I am* can bed a bunch of different women, but it takes a real man to keep one woman happy for a lifetime."


Fixed it for you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

skype said:


> MEM is a salesman. His financial success depended on being able to read people, read between the lines of verbal and non-verbal communication, to discover what they really wanted.


I had a colleague once ask me why I was always so angry and closed-off. I blinked a couple of times and said "Whaaaa?" He then mentioned how I always crossed my arms whenever he came into my cubicle for a conversation.

The answer was because I found it comfortable. 

Give me a straight up answer with no sugar coating every day of the week. You can just keep your NVC until you learn to verbalize it, young man.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> I think ROUTINE does this. I have a sports car that I bought at a young age, 31 years ago. When I drove off the lot I nearly pissed my pants. I have never been so high driving a car. 31 years later, I still have that same car. It runs great. How often do you think I drive it??
> 
> Maybe a total of 100 miles in a year, maybe That's it.
> Why did this happen? A car that I dreamed about for years and enjoyed for years, that sits. I see it every day of my life and I hardly ever want to drive it. I only drive it because I have to or it will fall apart. I won't sell it because it has many memories attached to it. I love that car, but I'm not IN LOVE with it.
> ...


Routine can be an issue, but it's not ours. The problems in my marriage started on our honeymoon! My husband began denying me sex then, so it hasn't been a routine issue.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> Routine can be an issue, but it's not ours. The problems in my marriage started on our honeymoon! My husband began denying me sex then, so it hasn't been a routine issue.


Kinda sounds like a bate and switch. Who wants that?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



NobodySpecial said:


> Kinda sounds like a bate and switch. Who wants that?


It's hard to tell. A few months after our wedding, things got better for a few months. Then we had our surprise pregnancy with our son and things went down hill again. Then, pretty much since then, it's been a big stress issue that is the reasoning my husband claims he is LD. There are times of hope where I can see him back to the man he was before, but then it slips back to HD/LD.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

altawa said:


> Sorry, my comments aren't echo chamber approved......no more participation from me.


Honestly, I had no intention of offending you in anyway, and since I apparently did, I apologize.

It seemed like a legitimate question. Both people are in a relationship, both are responsible for their sex lives, why aren't both responsible for communication?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> It's hard to tell. A few months after our wedding, things got better for a few months. Then we had our surprise pregnancy with our son and things went down hill again. Then, pretty much since then, it's been a big stress issue that is the reasoning my husband claims he is LD. There are times of hope where I can see him back to the man he was before, but then it slips back to HD/LD.


This is just very weird. Sex was great before marriage and then nothing?
The only reasoning behind it was pregnancy?(according to him) Does he hold you somehow responsible for the "surprise" and it's causing him resentment?
Can he articulate why he's lost his desire?


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Honestly, I had no intention of offending you in anyway, and since I apparently did, I apologize.
> 
> It seemed like a legitimate question. Both people are in a relationship, both are responsible for their sex lives, why aren't both responsible for communication?


No. It wasn't you.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Honestly, I had no intention of offending you in anyway, and since I apparently did, I apologize.
> 
> It seemed like a legitimate question. Both people are in a relationship, both are responsible for their sex lives, why aren't both responsible for communication?


Both are responsible to communicate. You can't put that blame on the HD to speak up nor can you put the blame on the LD. The one who speaks up first is usually the one who is the most upset. 

This thread seems to put the blame on the HD for not communicating, but it's both of their responsibility. You can't get mad at your partner if you never tried to communicate either. I think that was altawa's point.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



Anonymous07 said:


> It's hard to tell. A few months after our wedding, things got better for a few months. Then we had our surprise pregnancy with our son and things went down hill again. Then, pretty much since then, it's been a big stress issue that is the reasoning my husband claims he is LD. There are times of hope where I can see him back to the man he was before, but then it slips back to HD/LD.


So... this is a bit weird. Is he communicative on other topics? Could he maybe feel attacked on this topic? You seem very straightforward. I feel x so I am going to say x. Feelings are not always that easy to even identify forget about communicate for some people.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



UMP said:


> This is just very weird. Sex was great before marriage and then nothing?
> The only reasoning behind it was pregnancy?(according to him) Does he hold you somehow responsible for the "surprise" and it's causing him resentment?
> Can he articulate why he's lost his desire?


Sex was great before marriage. We didn't live together, but any time we were together, we had sex usually multiple times in a day. We dated for 3 years prior to marriage. 

His reasoning for refusing sex starting on our honeymoon was because he "freaked out" with the responsibility of being the husband/providing for me(I had a lot more money than him in savings, so ?). He got better and our sex life was good, until I got pregnant. He blamed me for the surprise pregnancy, saying it would not have happened if I didn't want sex so often. He says he holds no resentment and doesn't blame me for the pregnancy(he took back what he said before), and then said he is more LD because of all the stress he has at work. He's been stuck at his stressful job for a couple years now. He might get a new job soon(just had an interview), but I don't know if the new job will change anything or if he'll have a new reason he's not interested in sex. Who knows? 

I've been trying to do what I can on my side to be a good wife, and now am waiting to see how things go.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

A7,

Does he seem generally stressed out to you? 
More so than before you married? 
Do you know what types of things get him in the mood?
How much does he touch you in a non sexual way? 

Are your disappointed in him as a provider? 
Were you disappointed with his financial situation / amount of savings, income, etc. when he shared that info with you? 

Does he have a good work ethic? Is he responsible with money now? 

Do you admire him? 

Is he insecure by nature? 






Anonymous07 said:


> Sex was great before marriage. We didn't live together, but any time we were together, we had sex usually multiple times in a day. We dated for 3 years prior to marriage.
> 
> His reasoning for refusing sex starting on our honeymoon was because he "freaked out" with the responsibility of being the husband/providing for me(I had a lot more money than him in savings, so ?). He got better and our sex life was good, until I got pregnant. He blamed me for the surprise pregnancy, saying it would not have happened if I didn't want sex so often. He says he holds no resentment and doesn't blame me for the pregnancy(he took back what he said before), and then said he is more LD because of all the stress he has at work. He's been stuck at his stressful job for a couple years now. He might get a new job soon(just had an interview), but I don't know if the new job will change anything or if he'll have a new reason he's not interested in sex. Who knows?
> 
> I've been trying to do what I can on my side to be a good wife, and now am waiting to see how things go.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening hopeful cynic
> One detail though is that the limitation is invisible and very specific. It is obvious that a quadriplegic cannot help open doors, but it is not obvious that a LD cannot have sex.
> 
> I don't see the analogy to the electric door opener though. Usually in LD/HD situations the LD does not want their partner to be with anyone else or to use porn.


No, I meant that the electric door opener should be installed so that the quadriplegic can now operate the door as desired by the grocery-carrier. Not that the grocery-carrier can now operate the door alone or get someone else.

But if the grocery-carrier isn't willing to make that change, it's no longer the quadriplegic's fault that the door remains shut.

A metaphor only stretches so far.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> A7,
> 
> Does he seem generally stressed out to you? Yes
> More so than before you married? No. We met in college while getting our bachelor's degree. I think he was more stressed then with working his way through college(working full time, part-time college). I was lucky to have a scholarship that paid for most of college, so I was a full time student and worked part-time.
> ...


He is insecure to a point, but I think he's become much more confident in himself lately with his whole work situation. His manager won't allow him to move up and he's starting to be much more assertive, not taking her [email protected] I'm happy to see him do that. We thought she'd change, but it won't happen. She's been with the company too long and is trying to push him out. She blocked him from getting interviews within the company, so he's looking to get out now.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

A7,

You sound delightful. 

Glad the affection thing is working. Thst is a type of green flag. Men who dislike sex often dislike affection. 

Do you have a sense of what percentage of his sexual energy goes to you? 

Only asking because there is a difference between drive and desire. If he's self servicing almost daily but only connecting with you once a week, that's not ok. But that's a focus issue. 

If his drive is low due to T levels, that's a different type issue. 

Any idea? 






Anonymous07 said:


> He is insecure to a point, but I think he's become much more confident in himself lately with his whole work situation. His manager won't allow him to move up and he's starting to be much more assertive, not taking her [email protected] I'm happy to see him do that. We thought she'd change, but it won't happen. She's been with the company too long and is trying to push him out. She blocked him from getting interviews within the company, so he's looking to get out now.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening Hopeful Cynic
To make the model work though, you have to assume that the quadripalegic is not able to operate any sort of door opening mechanism that the grocery-carrier can devise. It may be due the the grocery-carriers lack of imagination or engineering talent, but they cannot figure out how to solve the problem. 



Hopeful Cynic said:


> No, I meant that the electric door opener should be installed so that the quadriplegic can now operate the door as desired by the grocery-carrier. Not that the grocery-carrier can now operate the door alone or get someone else.
> 
> But if the grocery-carrier isn't willing to make that change, it's no longer the quadriplegic's fault that the door remains shut.
> 
> A metaphor only stretches so far.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Hopeful Cynic
> To make the model work though, you have to assume that the quadripalegic is not able to operate any sort of door opening mechanism that the grocery-carrier can devise. It may be due the the grocery-carriers lack of imagination or engineering talent, but they cannot figure out how to solve the problem.


Well, I'd suggest to the grocery-carrier that they should not marry a quadriplegic then.

If the quadriplegic only became so after marriage, I'd tell the grocery-carrier to get over themselves and show some support and sympathy. If they can't learn to carry fewer groceries at a time, then I guess they need to divorce.

I think this metaphor is going to snap back at me soon.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> The single hottest thing about M2 is her playfulness.
> 
> Happiness is a prerequisite for playfulness.
> 
> And playfulness is the act of sharing your happiness with another person.....


This. This is such great summary. Although I do enjoy sex, my playfulnes is not as it could be if I was in better marriage.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> A7,
> 
> You sound delightful.
> 
> ...


His T levels are fine. He had a physical done about a year ago and everything was good. Good cholesterol levels, blood pressure, T levels, etc. He is a healthy man in his mid-thirties.

He claims it's a stress level problem and I'm hoping that is it, as it seems "fixable", but I don't know. He also talked about how once he got his degree his stress levels would go down and he'd feel better, but that didn't change anything. I don't want to get my hopes up to think that once his job changes that our sex life will change too. I'm just waiting to see what happens.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

A7,

Let's accept that AH (my abbreviation for your H) is chronically anxious. I used to have anxiety issues, so am very familiar with this pattern. The stuff below is the DSM V definition of generalized anxiety disorder. 

That was how I felt UNLESS I was actively managing my anxiety - through lifestyle. In order of importance:
- Exercise
- Sleep
- Diet

Faith also helps some folks with this. 

Here's the thing, if I didn't manage it Imhad trouble sleeping - once that happened - everything got worse. 

How much effort is he proactively putting into managing his symptoms? 

Does he have performance anxiety about sex? 

---------------------
DSM V
Excessive anxiety and worry (apprehensive expectation), occurring more days than not for at least 6 months, about a number of events or activities (such as work or school performance). 

B. The person finds it difficult to control the worry. 

C. The anxiety and worry are associated with three (or more) of the following six symptoms (with at least some symptoms present for more days than not for the past 6 months). Note: Only one item is required in children. 

(1) restlessness or feeling keyed up or on edge 
(2) being easily fatigued 
(3) difficulty concentrating or mind going blank 
(4) irritability 
(5) muscle tension 
(6) sleep disturbance (difficulty falling or staying asleep, or restless unsatisfying sleep) 

D. The focus of the anxiety and worry is not confined to features of an Axis I disorder, e.g., the anxiety or worry is not about having a Panic Attack (as in Panic Disorder), being embarrassed in public (as in Social Phobia), being contaminated (as in Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), being away from home or close relatives (as in Separation Anxiety Disorder), gaining weight (as in Anorexia Nervosa), having multiple physical complaints (as in Somatization Disorder), or having a serious illness (as in Hypochondriasis), and the anxiety and worry do not occur exclusively during Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. 

E. The anxiety, worry, or physical symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. 








Anonymous07 said:


> His T levels are fine. He had a physical done about a year ago and everything was good. Good cholesterol levels, blood pressure, T levels, etc. He is a healthy man in his mid-thirties.
> 
> He claims it's a stress level problem and I'm hoping that is it, as it seems "fixable", but I don't know. He also talked about how once he got his degree his stress levels would go down and he'd feel better, but that didn't change anything. I don't want to get my hopes up to think that once his job changes that our sex life will change too. I'm just waiting to see what happens.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*



MEM11363 said:


> A7,
> 
> Let's accept that AH (my abbreviation for your H) is chronically anxious. I used to have anxiety issues, so am very familiar with this pattern. The stuff below is the DSM V definition of generalized anxiety disorder.
> 
> ...


Currently, he does very little to manage his stress. I have pleaded with him to do something, but he always has an excuse for why he can't. He's too tired, he doesn't have time, he doesn't feel well. There is always something. I've tried to get him to write/type out his thoughts(because I'm about to lose it if he continues to only talk to me), just to get it off his chest, but he refuses. I asked him about working out at home, but he says he only likes working out at a gym. I asked him about going running again, but he says there is no time and he doesn't want to run at night. I have gotten him to go on walks with me right before or after dinner, but it's not that far since our toddler is walking with us(he usually only likes the stroller if you're running). I've tried giving him as many tools as I can for managing stress, but he has to be the one to actually do it and he's not doing that right now. 

The only fairly long period of time in our marriage where he handled stress well was after I threatened divorce. He did well for about 6 months, and was going running almost every morning. He felt better about his general outlook on life, but I don't remember it doing a whole lot for our sex life, although he was a the same job he hates. I don't know if a new job will change things or not. 

I don't know if he has performance anxiety or not. Sometimes getting him to talk about anything related to sex can be like trying to pull teeth. He'd rather avoid that conversation and just say everything is fine.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

A7,
This is just a painful read.

Some general observations about generalized anxiety:

I gradually cured myself. Slow, slow process. But totally worth it. 

It DOES take discipline to address, and when ignored it tends to create a downward spiral of fatigue - which makes exercise more difficult. But that's on him, you are doing your part. 

I was pretty disciplined managing my anxiety and I was lucky because the career I chose was a good fit and they pay was more than what we needed.

I wonder a bit if he resents having what most folks would consider normal adult responsibilities. There was a guy on TAM posting maybe 2-3 years ago. He didn't want to have kids. His wife either accidentally got pregnant or talked him into it. I don't remember which. 

What I DO remember was he was stuck in a BAD anxious place mentally and absolutely felt it was ok to share his never ending list of worries and complaints with his wife. MOST of his angst was over having increased financial responsibilities. 

I/we told him to man up because his wife was carryng their baby and he needed to support her. Eventually he stopped posting on TAM. Some males aren't cut out to be men. 

A man takes pride in caring for and/or providing for his wife and children. Focuses on it and gradually gets better at it.










[/I]


Anonymous07 said:


> Currently, he does very little to manage his stress. I have pleaded with him to do something, but he always has an excuse for why he can't. He's too tired, he doesn't have time, he doesn't feel well. There is always something. I've tried to get him to write/type out his thoughts(because I'm about to lose it if he continues to only talk to me), just to get it off his chest, but he refuses. I asked him about working out at home, but he says he only likes working out at a gym. I asked him about going running again, but he says there is no time and he doesn't want to run at night. I have gotten him to go on walks with me right before or after dinner, but it's not that far since our toddler is walking with us(he usually only likes the stroller if you're running). I've tried giving him as many tools as I can for managing stress, but he has to be the one to actually do it and he's not doing that right now.
> 
> The only fairly long period of time in our marriage where he handled stress well was after I threatened divorce. He did well for about 6 months, and was going running almost every morning. He felt better about his general outlook on life, but I don't remember it doing a whole lot for our sex life, although he was a the same job he hates. I don't know if a new job will change things or not.
> 
> I don't know if he has performance anxiety or not. Sometimes getting him to talk about anything related to sex can be like trying to pull teeth. He'd rather avoid that conversation and just say everything is fine.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There is a thing called demand resistance. People who have a lot of anxiety or control issues tend to have it, and men in general have it more often than women do, (but of course women have it, too).

It is basically when you refuse to do something because you feel it was demanded of you. But you don't say this, you either sabotage the person asking something of you, or you avoid and ignore it, or you change the subject, or you throw some other drama to take the focus off what is being demanded of you.

It can be a real psychological hold back for some people.

For other people, it may be just a small thing. Many of us develop demand resistance toward our mothers, because at the age when we were testing our independence, not doing what your mother told you to do was sometimes your first feeling of power. And then sometimes you would deliberately follow this pattern, refusing to be told what to do.

When hearing about LD men, I have often heard wives describing what sounds like demand resistance. Like "I'm not going to have sex with you JUST because you are being demanding about". This is obvious due to the lack of answers as to "why" when the wife asks about sex. Asking questions about the lack of sex is just more demand and causes even more demand resistance.

The LD husband may not think his wife can see his stubborn refusal, but she can. Since he won't cop to it, she can't force anything out of him, not even the truth such as "I feel you are being too pushy and demanding and I am punishing you".

However usually, if they have demand resistance in one area, you'll see it in other areas, too.

I'm not saying this is your whole problem A7, I'm just pointing it out.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is a thing called demand resistance. People who have a lot of anxiety or control issues tend to have it, and men in general have it more often than women do, (but of course women have it, too).
> 
> It is basically when you refuse to do something because you feel it was demanded of you. But you don't say this, you either sabotage the person asking something of you, or you avoid and ignore it, or you change the subject, or you throw some other drama to take the focus off what is being demanded of you.
> 
> It can be a real psychological hold back for some people.


I learned a long time ago that when you want someone to do something, results are all in the way you ask, and being demanding usually isn't helpful. I never thought of it as a reception problem though.

I have a vivid memory from when I was a teenager. I remember being extremely bored one day, and decided to clean my room. On the way to my room, I passed my father reading the newspaper, and he saw where I was headed and said "why don't you clean your room while you're in there?" *Instantly*, I no longer wanted to clean my room. I had been happy enough to do it for myself, but there was no way I was doing it for my father.

I can see how a long term libido mismatch situation could result in this sort of behaviour, especially if the HD person had never been particularly concerned with the LD person's enjoyment even before the frequency diminished.

If this is an underlying cause of the LD person's 'withholding' a key part of the solution may be for the HD person to make sex feel like the LD person's idea. Easier said than done!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Trying to imagine starting a thread with the question "wife beaters? What did your wife do that made you beat on her every day?" Or, "child neglecters, what did your infant do to make you quit feeding her?" Animal abusers, what did your dog or cat do that made you kick it every day?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Trying to imagine starting a thread with the question "wife beaters? What did your wife do that made you beat on her every day?" Or, "child neglecters, what did your infant do to make you quit feeding her?" Animal abusers, what did your dog or cat do that made you kick it every day?


Because the unique dynamics of sexual attraction between spouses are the same as that of abuser and abusee? Or that of a neglectful parent? Seriously? How do you come to this conclusion?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Withholding affection is a form of emotional abuse. This isn't stuff I just make up. Upon marrying my wife, I had to promise to behave in certain ways, "for better or worse, richer, poorer, sickness and in health, etc, etc". Nothing in that vow mentioned "if I feel like it". Indeed, if I was only bound by my feelings of the moment and not by my promise, there would have been no need for a ceremony or for any vows. The ceremony could be the instruction" y'all just go do as you please". People have needs. Sex is one of those needs. If my wife is hungry and I have food but refuse to give her any because I don't feel hungry, I'd be quite a heel. If she's cold and I have blankets and coats but refuse them, I'd be an abusive spouse. If I called her "ugly" or "repulsive" every day for years, there's not a woman on this thread who would say I wasn't an abuser. Serially refusing sex is the exact same thing. You might as well kick your spouse every day, call him/her "disgusting, ugly, repulsive". Doing that would actually be far more humane. That would be more compassionate than pretending you are married to someone who isn't really human and deliberately keeping them in a semi-human state for decades. Blowing their head off would be more humane. 
I would so prefer to be married to a physical abuser. They hit, they apologize, they trip over themselves to be nice for a time, then they hit again... A sex withholder is content to abuse you every minute of every day for the next 20 years without relief.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Is this abuse? | 5 types of domestic abuse everyone should know : Power of Two Marriage
Says right here that withhold sex is sexual abuse. 

University of Michigan: Withholding Sex, Discounting Feelings are ‘Sexual Violence’ (right here, too). 

Subtle Sexual Abuse (and here)
Refusing Sex = Emotional Abuse : I Live In a Sexless Marriage Story & Experience (and here)

When Your Partner Stops Giving: The Silent Pain of Emotional Withholding - (and here)


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well I wouldn't argue that deliberately withholding sex to punish is abusive, though I wouldn't put in on the level of someone who starves an infant. That's just ridiculous. That's like comparing a shoplifter and a murderer.

If LD's are to be labeled abusive for not wanting sex more then HD's are also abusive for demanding what a LD doesn't wish to give. But sex is a complicated issue that can't be solved through bumper sticker sayings.

The LD/HD issue is more complicated than that. LD people don't want sex as often. That's who they are. Even when they do give it up HD's will often complain that it's duty sex. Well ya, if it's all about your needs then what else would it be? Why do they have to change but you don't? If you want a lot of enthusiastic sex marry a person who also wants that, but understand that things change in life. I married a guy who was and still is in great shape because that's what I wanted, but what if he was in an accident and I dumped him because he no longer suited what I wanted? Or just got on here and complained that I don't have my hot, physically fit guy? Everyone would think I was a dirtbag and with good reason. Life happens and we have to be flexible for our spouses.

And hard as it is to believe there are plenty of things people do that turn their spouses off. You aren't entitled to all the sex you want if you don't take a shower or brush your teeth. You can't call your wife a b!tch and then expect her to fall on her back for you. That's what this thread is about, and if you've taken a good look at your behavior and can't find any reason your wife might be turned off and perhaps this thread doesn't apply to you. This is seldom the case though.....many men seem to think that agreeing to marry someone entitles them to lots of sex regardless of how they conduct themselves. 

What if your wife gained 300 pounds and stopped brushing her teeth? Are you still required to get it up for her as often as she needs?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Withholding affection is a form of emotional abuse. This isn't stuff I just make up. Upon marrying my wife, I had to promise to behave in certain ways, "for better or worse, richer, poorer, sickness and in health, etc, etc". Nothing in that vow mentioned "if I feel like it". Indeed, if I was only bound by my feelings of the moment and not by my promise, there would have been no need for a ceremony or for any vows. The ceremony could be the instruction" y'all just go do as you please". People have needs. Sex is one of those needs. If my wife is hungry and I have food but refuse to give her any because I don't feel hungry, I'd be quite a heel. If she's cold and I have blankets and coats but refuse them, I'd be an abusive spouse. If I called her "ugly" or "repulsive" every day for years, there's not a woman on this thread who would say I wasn't an abuser. Serially refusing sex is the exact same thing. You might as well kick your spouse every day, call him/her "disgusting, ugly, repulsive". Doing that would actually be far more humane. That would be more compassionate than pretending you are married to someone who isn't really human and deliberately keeping them in a semi-human state for decades. Blowing their head off would be more humane.
> I would so prefer to be married to a physical abuser. They hit, they apologize, they trip over themselves to be nice for a time, then they hit again... A sex withholder is content to abuse you every minute of every day for the next 20 years without relief.



Seriously Unbelievable? Seriously?

The reason why withholding sex is NOT abuse is because being celibate doesn't prevent you from getting out of the victim chair and leaving your martyr robe behind and finally leaving your wife?

I will never understand why you or anyone else who feels they are being abused think their vows are more important than no longer being abused. 

You equated sexual withholding as abusive, like child abuse and domestic abuse. What would you say to anyone living in a situation of domestic abuse?

LEAVE!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is a thing called demand resistance. People who have a lot of anxiety or control issues tend to have it, and men in general have it more often than women do, (but of course women have it, too).
> 
> It is basically when you refuse to do something because you feel it was demanded of you. But you don't say this, you either sabotage the person asking something of you, or you avoid and ignore it, or you change the subject, or you throw some other drama to take the focus off what is being demanded of you.


This sounds VERY familiar somehow. 
There's another thing called "oppositional defiant disorder", which is a psychological disorder that is like a version of this on steroids, so to speak.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Un,

Outside the realm of this topic I have a huge amount of respect for you. You are scary smart and practical and incredibly fair. 

Inside the realm of this topic - you are impaired by anger and bitterness. 

You chosen to give yourself NO OPTIONS. I accept your statements at face value - that yours is an integrity driven choice. Still it is your choice and you need to own it. It isn't right to come here and use the equivalent of an emotional sawed off shotgun to blast other folks when you know nothing about their marriages. 









unbelievable said:


> Withholding affection is a form of emotional abuse. This isn't stuff I just make up. Upon marrying my wife, I had to promise to behave in certain ways, "for better or worse, richer, poorer, sickness and in health, etc, etc". Nothing in that vow mentioned "if I feel like it". Indeed, if I was only bound by my feelings of the moment and not by my promise, there would have been no need for a ceremony or for any vows. The ceremony could be the instruction" y'all just go do as you please". People have needs. Sex is one of those needs. If my wife is hungry and I have food but refuse to give her any because I don't feel hungry, I'd be quite a heel. If she's cold and I have blankets and coats but refuse them, I'd be an abusive spouse. If I called her "ugly" or "repulsive" every day for years, there's not a woman on this thread who would say I wasn't an abuser. Serially refusing sex is the exact same thing. You might as well kick your spouse every day, call him/her "disgusting, ugly, repulsive". Doing that would actually be far more humane. That would be more compassionate than pretending you are married to someone who isn't really human and deliberately keeping them in a semi-human state for decades. Blowing their head off would be more humane.
> I would so prefer to be married to a physical abuser. They hit, they apologize, they trip over themselves to be nice for a time, then they hit again... A sex withholder is content to abuse you every minute of every day for the next 20 years without relief.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Seriously Unbelievable? Seriously?
> 
> The reason why withholding sex is NOT abuse is because being celibate doesn't prevent you from getting out of the victim chair and leaving your martyr robe behind and finally leaving your wife?
> 
> ...


Committing financial suicide is always an option, as is abandoning your children to live with a serial abuser. Neither are ideal solutions. It is another way of finding oneself screwed either way one turns. What would be wrong with people actually doing what they promised to do and being what they promised to be? Someone who neglects their child or even their dog or who punches a domestic partner can be arrested and society will force them to adjust their behavior. Withholders get rewarded for being abusers. Might be the only form of abuse in which the victim routinely gets blamed for their own victimization. One who has made a promise they are no longer willing to keep has the moral obligation to screw their head on straight or to leave the partnership, leaving their innocent partner has intact as possible. That's not likely to happen in anyone's situation.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Un,
> 
> Outside the realm of this topic I have a huge amount of respect for you. You are scary smart and practical and incredibly fair.
> 
> ...


The only choice I have is to keep my vows or not. I didn't choose my wife's mental illness any more than I can choose for her to have cancer or heart disease. I think most would agree it would be awful of someone to divorce their partner because they were sick or injured. Also, my wife has zero means of financial support apart from her husband. Would it be morally right for me to put her in the street or have society pay for her upkeep? Didn't I promise to be her husband through sickness and in health? 
I respond to the post of others. I have always made exceptions for those who are not deliberate withholders but are unable due to illness or injuries. I don't consider my own wife to be an abuser because that would require intent on her part and an ability to behave otherwise on her part. Unlike cancer or heart disease, one can't take an Xray and determine where mental illness ends and choice begins. If I believed her withholding was by choice, I'd be out of here. 
I knew going into this thing that she was Bipolar. I had read up on the condition and I knew it was likely to get worse. I incorrectly assumed we'd have several good years before it did. When I got married, I knew she could be hit by a truck the day after the wedding and I might have to care for her for the next 60 years. The odds were slight but the possibility was there and that's the promise we both made. There are more than enough abandoned mentally ill people on the streets. If not putting another one out there makes me stupid or co-dependent or just a whiner, I guess that's what I'll have to be.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

mary35 said:


> 1. Lack of communication. He never talked to me about our sexual relationship. He did not ask me what I liked or what felt good. He just tried things and went with my reaction, sometimes even ignoring my reaction. He never expressed how my rejection hurt him, or how he felt when I rejected him. He never expressed what sex meant to him - what having sex with ME meant to him.
> 
> 2. Most of the time, it felt like sex WAS ONLY about sex for him - not at all about a deep emotional connection. When I rejected him or pushed him away - he would become pesty - and would try over and over to get me to change my mind, groping, touching, sulking, etc. He often wanted sex when he knew I was exhausted, or upset, or even sick. When we did have sex - once sex was over - he quickly fell asleep and then the next morning, with maybe a quick peck on the cheek - he quickly moved on and away from me.
> 
> ...


I have stated those exact things a few times on this board but only got attacked as I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about. Instead of listening and trying to understand any of it, people could attack someone trying to help them. No wonder their spouses don't want to be bothered with them.

I haven't read this thread yet, but thanks for posting this and giving others a chance to speak their mind about it.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well I wouldn't argue that deliberately withholding sex to punish is abusive, though I wouldn't put in on the level of someone who starves an infant. That's just ridiculous. That's like comparing a shoplifter and a murderer.
> 
> If LD's are to be labeled abusive for not wanting sex more then HD's are also abusive for demanding what a LD doesn't wish to give. But sex is a complicated issue that can't be solved through bumper sticker sayings.
> 
> ...


This whole LD/HD definition is ambiguous and misleading. When I talk about a withholder, I'm not talking about the difference between one spouse wanting it once a week and the other wanting it three times a week. I'm talking about those who are content to refuse sex (and usually all other forms of intimacy) for months or years at a time. Surely, in any sane person's definition, that would constitute abuse. Desiring sex doesn't make someone HD. It makes them a normally functioning human being. 
My ex wife actually became rather large and her dental hygiene was quite sub-par. I confess I didn't chase her around naked every night but I met all her reasonable needs because I was her husband and that was what the position requires. 300 lb people with bad breath are still human beings and none of us vowed to love, honor, and cherish our mates only in the event that they never gained weight, never smelled funny, never got sick, never lost their job, never became scarred or disfigured, never behaved in an unpleasant manner, never lost a limb or a breast. If our vows only remain in effect when things are rosy, what the hell good are they? If your kid gained weight, would you still show him/her affection? How would you expect your husband to treat you if you gained weight, lost your hair, developed gum disease, got burned in a fire, etc? Regardless of who you marry, their appearance will change and for some of us, those changes will be sudden and profound. I've got two legs and two arms today but tomorrow I may have one of each or none of the above. Changes in appearance don't release us from our marriage vows.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Un,

I made a hasty assessment of you early on. It was completely wrong - and the tone of some of my posts to you reflected that. 

There is nothing stupid or whiney about you. As for co-dependence - most long term married folks have some of that. It's somewhat unavoidable. 

Overall you got a raw deal - and I feel bad for you. The same way I'd feel bad for a guy got his leg blown off by a land mine. 

That said Mary 35 kicked this thread off with a diplomat grade post. A tactful, balanced, unflinchingly honest assessment of her marriage. 

I then promised the LD folks to help maintain a certain tone on this thread. 

So I'm asking nicely. Either find a way to let go the anger before posting on this thread or leave it be. 






unbelievable said:


> The only choice I have is to keep my vows or not. I didn't choose my wife's mental illness any more than I can choose for her to have cancer or heart disease. I think most would agree it would be awful of someone to divorce their partner because they were sick or injured. Also, my wife has zero means of financial support apart from her husband. Would it be morally right for me to put her in the street or have society pay for her upkeep? Didn't I promise to be her husband through sickness and in health?
> I respond to the post of others. I have always made exceptions for those who are not deliberate withholders but are unable due to illness or injuries. I don't consider my own wife to be an abuser because that would require intent on her part and an ability to behave otherwise on her part. Unlike cancer or heart disease, one can't take an Xray and determine where mental illness ends and choice begins. If I believed her withholding was by choice, I'd be out of here.
> I knew going into this thing that she was Bipolar. I had read up on the condition and I knew it was likely to get worse. I incorrectly assumed we'd have several good years before it did. When I got married, I knew she could be hit by a truck the day after the wedding and I might have to care for her for the next 60 years. The odds were slight but the possibility was there and that's the promise we both made. There are more than enough abandoned mentally ill people on the streets. If not putting another one out there makes me stupid or co-dependent or just a whiner, I guess that's what I'll have to be.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Withholding affection is a form of emotional abuse. This isn't stuff I just make up. Upon marrying my wife, I had to promise to behave in certain ways, "for better or worse, richer, poorer, sickness and in health, etc, etc". Nothing in that vow mentioned "if I feel like it". Indeed, if I was only bound by my feelings of the moment and not by my promise, there would have been no need for a ceremony or for any vows. The ceremony could be the instruction" y'all just go do as you please". People have needs. Sex is one of those needs. If my wife is hungry and I have food but refuse to give her any because I don't feel hungry, I'd be quite a heel. If she's cold and I have blankets and coats but refuse them, I'd be an abusive spouse. If I called her "ugly" or "repulsive" every day for years, there's not a woman on this thread who would say I wasn't an abuser. Serially refusing sex is the exact same thing. You might as well kick your spouse every day, call him/her "disgusting, ugly, repulsive". Doing that would actually be far more humane. That would be more compassionate than pretending you are married to someone who isn't really human and deliberately keeping them in a semi-human state for decades. Blowing their head off would be more humane.
> I would so prefer to be married to a physical abuser. They hit, they apologize, they trip over themselves to be nice for a time, then they hit again... A sex withholder is content to abuse you every minute of every day for the next 20 years without relief.


So if a man has low T and cannot get it up for sex, he's as bad as a wife beater? Is that what you are saying?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> So if a man has low T and cannot get it up for sex, he's as bad as a wife beater? Is that what you are saying?


If a man has low T and can't get it up, he still has a mouth and his hands. He also should be going to the doc to find a medical solution. Once again, I have already and repeatedly said that I wasn't talking about people who CAN'T perform sexually due to injury or illness. Unless someone has very serious disabilities, there is little excuse for not even trying to meet their partner's very normal and reasonable needs for physical affection and sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> If a man has low T and can't get it up, he still has a mouth and his hands. He also should be going to the doc to find a medical solution. Once again, I have already and repeatedly said that I wasn't talking about people who CAN'T perform sexually due to injury or illness. Unless someone has very serious disabilities, there is little excuse for not even trying to meet their partner's very normal and reasonable needs for physical affection and sex.


Above you call sex a need and equate it to food and warmth in the cold. It's not an accurate statement. There are primary needs without which we cannot stay alive: food, water, warmth/shelter are some of those. If a human goes without these things for a few days they will die. There is no surviving without having our primary needs met.

Sex is a secondary need. Secondary needs are the emotional needs we have that make life good. They are they ones that we hope to find in marriage or in a good family and/or social connections.

A person can live a good life without ever once having sex. I person can live years, decades with out sex and have no adverse affects from the lack of sex. All they need do is to accept that this is what their life is like at that time. 

Secondary needs include: sex, non-sexual intimacy and all the other secondary needs that are important in marriage... Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Honesty and Openness, Physical Attractiveness, Financial Support, Domestic Support, Family Commitment, Admiration.

Not one of the secondary needs is more important than the other. Now of course each person will have their own ranking of the secondary needs. But they are all important.

If one person has a high need for sex and their spouse has a high need for non-sexual intimacy, neither of these needs is more important. They are equally important. In this manner we could go down the list of needs after both spouses rank them and make similar statements.

So let's look at Joe and Sarah.

X (gender ignored) has sex as his/her top need. Y has non-sexual intimacy as his/her top need.

They start out their relationship with a hot sex life and spending a lot of time together. So both are getting their top need met.

As time goes on X&Y keep having a hot sex life. But X starts to spend less and less time with Y... basically Y stops meeting X's strong need for non-sexual intimacy.

So now X is getting his/her #1 need met all the time. Y is not longer getting his/her #1 need met at all. 

Guess what happens? The Oxytocin and other good brain chemicals in Y's body will fall so far below the 'in-love' levels that Y will not only not want sex with X anymore, Y will be repulsed by even the though of X touching Y.

Y's reaction here is measurable and can be proven scientifically. Without ample Oxytocin++ hormones, Y will feel LD.. meaning that they have no desire for sex at all with X. In the worst cases of this happening, Y will get to the point where having sex with X is force, not just unpleasant.. it feels forced and hurts emotionally.

Now why exactly is X's need for sex more important than Y's need for non-sexual intimacy? It's not.

Now we can take any of those needs and substitute them for "non-sexual intimacy" and the same thing happens.

Let's say that Y's most important need is respect. But X keeps just disrespecting Y... over time Y's sex drive will drop to the point of being repulsed by Y.

The assumption that in every case except where there is some extreme medical issue, that a person not wanting sex with the spouse is abusive just does not hold up. 

Sometimes, it's the person who wants the sex who is the person who has caused the problem and led to the other person not being able to emotionally handle sex with the other.

Sometimes, it's a marital problem that both are contributing to but one or both will not address it.

And yes, there are some people who are just mean and malicious, and withhold sex to punish their spouse. But there are people who are mean and malicious who withhold one or more of the other emotional needs to punish their spouse as well.

To assume that all people who do not want sex with their spouse are mean and malicious is just wrong. It denies that both spouses has to do what they can to meet their spouses needs. It is a statement that the only important need is sex... that a person can do nothing to meet their spouses needs but then demand that their need of sex is the most important need in the marriage.. aka.. the person demanding it is more important in the marriage than the other.

To find out what is going on in a marriage with sexual issues, there is a list of things that must be eliminated... starting out with accusing the person who appears to be LD of being abusive is not going to help anything. Perhaps, just perhaps, that person is the one who is reacting to having their needs seriously not met... the person who appears to be HD might just be the one in the marriage who has emotionally injured the one who appears to be LD.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> If a man has low T and can't get it up, *he still has a mouth and his hands*. He also should be going to the doc to find a medical solution. Once again, I have already and repeatedly said that I wasn't talking about people who CAN'T perform sexually due to injury or illness. Unless someone has very serious disabilities, there is little excuse for not even trying to meet their partner's very normal and reasonable needs for physical affection and sex.



If my husband were LD due to things like low T (non-treatable) or other issues, if he felt good about what could be done and he enjoyed the sensations of touch, etc. that's fine.

But if he did not enjoy the touch and intimacy, I would not want him doing things sexually to me to service me. If he cannot enjoy the sex... why on earth would I want him to force himself to perform a chore? What a turnoff.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> If my husband were LD due to things like low T (non-treatable) or other issues, if he felt good about what could be done and he enjoyed the sensations of touch, etc. that's fine.
> 
> But if he did not enjoy the touch and intimacy, I would not want him doing things sexually to me to service me. If he cannot enjoy the sex... why on earth would I want him to force himself to perform a chore? What a turnoff.


Sex and intimacy are more than just seeing to one's own gratification. They are vital elements to sustaining a marriage. On the rare occasions my wife is agreeable to sex, we involve more than just our genitals and I think that is pretty common. Whether your hypothetical low T guy realized it or would admit it, he needs intimacy and benefits from that bond, too. Whether or not his penis could get involved, he needs human touch, too. I suspect if you were a normally functioning human who had been denied intimate touch for months or years, you would eagerly accept your spouse doing whatever was in his power to physically demonstrate his desire to give you pleasure. He would enjoy being intimate with you, you would derive pleasure from it, and even if the experience wasn't porn material, it'd be a lot more marriage enhancing than a divorce or an affair or an allegedly married person going through life feeling that they are utterly alone, unloved, and exploited.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: LD's speak up - What pard does your spouse play in your lack of desire and respon*

Good evening hopeful cynic
yes, we are stretching this metaphor pretty thin. 
I would agree that (translating back), people with incompatible sexual interests should probably not marry. Unfortunately this is not often discussed or understood until people are in a committed relationship. Then its tricky.

So to stretch the analogy (metaphor? - I've forgotten the difference), you have to assume that the grocery carrier didn't know that there were quadriplegics, and the quadriplegic didn't know that some people could walk. 




Hopeful Cynic said:


> Well, I'd suggest to the grocery-carrier that they should not marry a quadriplegic then.
> 
> If the quadriplegic only became so after marriage, I'd tell the grocery-carrier to get over themselves and show some support and sympathy. If they can't learn to carry fewer groceries at a time, then I guess they need to divorce.
> 
> I think this metaphor is going to snap back at me soon.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ele,

And this is exactly why I believe the 'desire to please', and it's first cousin, 'the desire to avoid causing distress', are such an integral part of a healthy marriage. 

Those two traits - in action outside the bedroom. 

Normally I shop with M2 on the weekend. It's quality time. She's fun - so it's fun. I do not consider this a chore. And I do know that it reinforces M2's belief that I love being with her. Because I am NOT there for the shopping. When by myself, I shop rarely and efficiently. 

M2 tells me she's headed to Home Depot. Don't know why, but I was a bit sluggish. So I say so - and tell her I'm going to pass. Maybe 10 minutes later she tells me she's heading out - makes a comment about how she's going to need to get a Home Depot guy to help her get the thing she's buying into the car because it's heavy. 

And right then - I instantly realize that she's going to feel rejected if I don't go. I get up and say: those guys can be hard to find, besides I need some exercise. 

So mostly - the desire to please drives things. But the desire to avoid displeasing, or hurting is a powerful safety net. 

Why am I mentioning this? 

Because if you read a transcript of our discussion: M2 never once DIRECTLY ASKED ME TO GO. 

And that is for the reason Ele stated. If I really don't want to go - she doesn't want me to join her. 

--------
All that aside - in an earlier post - someone mentioned a partner not brushing their teeth. 

I would tell such a partner: If you want to connect with me, you need to follow some basic rules of engagement - dental hygiene is one of those. 

And in reverse - M2 would say exactly the same thing. She would not only refuse to have sex with me if I didn't bother with basic hygiene, she would feel insulted that I didn't care to make the effort to be appealing. 






EleGirl said:


> If my husband were LD due to things like low T (non-treatable) or other issues, if he felt good about what could be done and he enjoyed the sensations of touch, etc. that's fine.
> 
> But if he did not enjoy the touch and intimacy, I would not want him doing things sexually to me to service me. If he cannot enjoy the sex... why on earth would I want him to force himself to perform a chore? What a turnoff.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Anon Pink

For religious, social, or personal reasons some people believe that vows are more important then their own happiness, even more important then their own lives.

It is very dependent on culture and upbringing, but some people feel that they dishonor themselves by breaking a vow, and that dishonor is worst than death.





Anon Pink said:


> snip
> I will never understand why you or anyone else who feels they are being abused think their vows are more important than no longer being abused.
> snip
> LEAVE!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
these discussions conflate so many different types of LD.

For many years my wife and I had a very limited sex life, declined to once every few months. She ignored gentle requests until I complained - in fact was about to ask for a divorce. Our sex life suddenly got good - and we were BOTH happy. Really, I'm convinced she wasn't pretending - we were like a young couple in love again.

Then it declined again over the next few years. I had another painful conversation with her, and now things seem good. Once again we BOTH seem happy - though we will have to see how it goes.

Is she really LD? She is not "withholding" she has made it clear she doesn't want anything I don't already do. She enjoys sex when we have it. She seems happy when we have an active sex life, yet as time goes on she turns it down more often. (and doesn't even seem to realize she is doing it).

Maybe there simply isn't a meaningful concept of LD and HD. Maybe the cases are so different that they simply cannot be lumped together.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> M2 tells me she's headed to Home Depot. Don't know why, but I was a bit sluggish. So I say so - and tell her I'm going to pass. Maybe 10 minutes later she tells me she's heading out - makes a comment about how she's going to need to get a Home Depot guy to help her get the thing she's buying into the car because it's heavy.
> 
> And right then - I instantly realize that she's going to feel rejected if I don't go. I get up and say: those guys can be hard to find, besides I need some exercise.


Ahhh, the old "but I need a big strong man to help me, are you going to make me call on another big strong man to help me?" (innocent blink-blink Bambie eyes)

Makes 'em hop right into action!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> If my husband were LD due to things like low T (non-treatable) or other issues, if he felt good about what could be done and he enjoyed the sensations of touch, etc. that's fine.
> 
> But if he did not enjoy the touch and intimacy, I would not want him doing things sexually to me to service me. If he cannot enjoy the sex... why on earth would I want him to force himself to perform a chore? What a turnoff.



I'm not following the posts all that closely, but I guessing the tie in to the thread's stated purpose would be that ultimately an HD asking for or accepting "duty sex" leads to a reduction of desire from the LD. Is that it?

In any case, statements along the lines of "Why would anyone want their partner to provide duty sex, as if it were just a chore?" are made occasionally on TAM. 

There was a time I would have accepted that -- and probably did so unknowingly for years. (Looking back, that is likely all I have gotten since the birth of our first kid.). There was a time I probably knew it was that, but just looked the other way.

There was a time when hearing those sorts of "What kind of person would want duty sex?" posts made me really uncomfortable because maybe I was one of those kinds!

Now, I cannot accept duty sex (not that I have been offered any lately). And, I'd have a hard time accepting it even if it was presented as something done "lovingly". It is a turn off for me now.

What is different? Back then, I didn't see as duty sex. I saw it as hope things were getting better. I felt as if I was no longer being rejected by my partner -- not realizing I was just as rejection-worthy in her eyes, and she merely found motivation to endure sharing her body with me for an hour or less.

Like many things that feel good or taste good at first, as time goes on we sometimes it wasn't as it had seemed, and ultimately we have paid a price, or at least lost the desire for.

So, to LDs, I say don't assume acceptance of or desire for sex on any terms from you is proof your HD just wants to use you, or doesn't feel anything but raw physical pleasure and therefore is indifferent to your lack of interest or enthusiasm the times you give in and make your body available. My guess is many HDs are feeling quite a mix of emotions, and are either unaware of the overall negativeness of the experience for you, and/or are lying to themselves that the experience is and end to the rejections and a reason for hope.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deep sigh. 

Yeah yeah yeah - guilty as charged

As SOON as she said that I thought - that's MY JOB - I'M the guy does the heavy lifting for you. 

But make no mistake - primal triggers aside - once I realize M2 is going to feel rejected - if I can humanly prevent that I do. 

That's mostly true in reverse....





Faithful Wife said:


> Ahhh, the old "but I need a big strong man to help me, are you going to make me call on another big strong man to help me?" (innocent blink-blink Bambie eyes)
> 
> Makes 'em hop right into action!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It's interesting that you describe it as her "feeling rejected". I wouldn't associate my H not wanting to go to the store with me as rejecting me. It would just mean he didn't want to go. Did I miss something?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No - you didn't miss anything. 

She's a little insecure. Not about me - about herself. 

She's not irrational. If I'd said: babe, don't know why but I'm dead tired, else I'd go with you....

That would have worked. But then I would have been LYING, so not ok with me. 

But a bit sluggish, she wouldn't start a fight over me not going. She'd just be anxious. 

She doesn't mind me loving her a bit more, I don't mind her needing me a bit more....



QUOTE=Faithful Wife;12359186]It's interesting that you describe it as her "feeling rejected". I wouldn't associate my H not wanting to go to the store with me as rejecting me. It would just mean he didn't want to go. Did I miss something?[/QUOTE]


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Sex and intimacy are more than just seeing to one's own gratification. They are vital elements to sustaining a marriage. On the rare occasions my wife is agreeable to sex, we involve more than just our genitals and I think that is pretty common. Whether your hypothetical low T guy realized it or would admit it, he needs intimacy and benefits from that bond, too. Whether or not his penis could get involved, he needs human touch, too. *I suspect if you were a normally functioning human* who had been denied intimate touch for months or years, you would eagerly accept your spouse doing whatever was in his power to physically demonstrate his desire to give you pleasure. He would enjoy being intimate with you, you would derive pleasure from it, and even if the experience wasn't porn material, it'd be a lot more marriage enhancing than a divorce or an affair or an allegedly married person going through life feeling that they are utterly alone, unloved, and exploited.


Yes, if only I were a normally functioning human.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> these discussions conflate so many different types of LD.
> 
> For many years my wife and I had a very limited sex life, declined to once every few months. She ignored gentle requests until I complained - in fact was about to ask for a divorce. Our sex life suddenly got good - and we were BOTH happy. Really, I'm convinced she wasn't pretending - we were like a young couple in love again.
> ...


That's right. There are many situations in which people do not want sex, or much sex, with their spouse. A good number are not LD. They have a sex drive. But there are marital problems that lead to them not wanting sex with their spouse. 

To me it sounds like your wife is a true LD person.

On TAM, it seems that everyone who does not want an lot of sex with their spouse is just dumped into the LD bucket. it's convenient because then if they are labeled "LD" then then "HD" spouse does not have to look at their own contribution to marital problems. Instead they can just harbor anger at the "LD" villain. (I'm not saying that you do this. I do see many others here who do.)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Sex and intimacy are more than just seeing to one's own gratification. They are vital elements to sustaining a marriage. On the rare occasions my wife is agreeable to sex, we involve more than just our genitals and I think that is pretty common. Whether your hypothetical low T guy realized it or would admit it, he needs intimacy and benefits from that bond, too. Whether or not his penis could get involved, he needs human touch, too. I suspect if you were a normally functioning human who had been denied intimate touch for months or years, you would eagerly accept your spouse doing whatever was in his power to physically demonstrate his desire to give you pleasure. He would enjoy being intimate with you, you would derive pleasure from it, and even if the experience wasn't porn material, it'd be a lot more marriage enhancing than a divorce or an affair or an allegedly married person going through life feeling that they are utterly alone, unloved, and exploited.


I covered all of that in the below quote.


EleGirl said:


> If my husband were LD due to things like low T (non-treatable) or other issues, if he felt good about what could be done and he enjoyed the sensations of touch, etc. that's fine.


The rest of the quote you were responding to is about a completely different scenario.


EleGirl said:


> But if he did not enjoy the touch and intimacy, I would not want him doing things sexually to me to service me. If he cannot enjoy the sex... why on earth would I want him to force himself to perform a chore? What a turnoff.


I am a normally functioning human. I was denied intimate touch and every other need being met for years... and years... and years. Touch, to include sex, are my love language and probably why they were withheld... to hurt and punish.

I stand by what I wrote. If he does not want to be intimate and will not derive his own pleasure from it, would not want my husband to ‘service’ me. Duty sex is a huge turnoff.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PieceOfSky said:


> I'm not following the posts all that closely, but I guessing the tie in to the thread's stated purpose would be that ultimately an HD asking for or accepting "duty sex" leads to a reduction of desire from the LD. Is that it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a problem in responding to this... We have to decide what we are talking about. The term "LD" is being so loosely here that it's impossible to address the questions because there are different answers depending on the situation. 

"LD" means low sexual drive. Most people who appear to be LD are not LD. They are harboring resentment and anger because they believe that there are martial problems that are so huge that they do not want sex with their spouse .. they are basically sexually turned off by the marriage problems. Keep in mind that men are as likely was women to make a marriage low sex or no sex.

So who are you asking these questions of? People (men and women) who are truly LD.. have some hormonal or other health issue that makes them not want sex often?

Or are you addressing people (men and women) who have a good sex drive but are turned off to their spouse because their spouse continues to not meet their needs and the marriage basically sucks for them. And all their spouse cares about is getting more sex.

Or are you addressing people (men and women) who use sex as a bartering chip to get their way?

Or are you addressing people (men and women) who use sex as a passive aggressive tool to punish their spouse?

You see there are different answers according to the situation.

I cannot answer for LD people because I have never been LD.

I can answer for a situation in which a HD person got to the point where they would not have sex with their spouse... I've lived through that. I got to the point in a marriage where I would not have had sex with my H under any circumstance... why? Because he withheld sex for years as a way to punish and hurt me. He refused to address any issues in the marriage. He was seriously abusive... shall I go on? Why on earth would I want to have sex with this man? I divorced him and went on to have a good sex life.. makes sense to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Long ago I wrote a post proposing that we differentiate between terms:

1. Raw sex drive 
2. Sexual desire for partner
3. Desire to please partner
4. Desire to avoid displeasing partner

When (1) Is high and (2 thru 4) are low, you have someone who's having a good amount of solo sex. Might be while their partner climbs the wall with frustration. 

For short we'll call this the high drive low desire scenario. This creates an increased risk of infidelity. 









EleGirl said:


> There is a problem in responding to this... We have to decide what we are talking about. The term "LD" is being so loosely here that it's impossible to address the questions because there are different answers depending on the situation.
> 
> "LD" means low sexual drive. Most people who appear to be LD are not LD. They are harboring resentment and anger because they believe that there are martial problems that are so huge that they do not want sex with their spouse .. they are basically sexually turned off by the marriage problems. Keep in mind that men are as likely was women to make a marriage low sex or no sex.
> 
> ...


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Dang, Mary. I hate this thread was so very little of what you asked for. Instead, it turned mostly into people hijacking it with their own ridiculous philosophies and all their continued complaints about their low drive partners. Too bad people couldn't just share what you asked for others to glean. Everybody else just has to show how right they are. I'm sorry this happened. I hate the mods let it get hijacked like this. As you told them, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other threads to do this on, and they can start some more of their own.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

CarlaRose said:


> Dang, Mary. I hate this thread was so very little of what you asked for. Instead, it turned mostly into people hijacking it with their own ridiculous philosophies. Too bad people couldn't just share what you asked for other to glean. Everybody else just has to show how right they are. I'm sorry this happened.


Such is life on TAM


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

If LD's want to discuss this kind of content without a counter or opposing view, which is inherently the nature of the forum ... I suggest you create a private social group and invite it's participants.

This is in part why we adopted the Social Group model about 3 years ago.

If you need assistance, please contact a moderator.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Faithful Wife
But what if it was considered a terrible thing for you to "go to the store" without him? 



Faithful Wife said:


> It's interesting that you describe it as her "feeling rejected". I wouldn't associate my H not wanting to go to the store with me as rejecting me. It would just mean he didn't want to go. Did I miss something?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Carla,

I have no idea what it's like to live within a sexually broken marriage. 

There's no question that the 'frustrated HD' members of TAM tend to be more overtly angry, resentful and bitter than their LD brethren. 

I'm going to share a very short story with you in the hope that it might give you a bit more compassion for the HD folks on the other side of this discussion. 

A LD woman began taking HRT related to menopause. She accidentally doubled her testosterone supplement for the first couple of weeks. 

Her reaction: 
- It made her sex crazed 
- She began to wonder how men can function when they are constantly thinking about sex

Her view of her husband and his sexual behavior was permanently altered. 






CarlaRose said:


> Dang, Mary. I hate this thread was so very little of what you asked for. Instead, it turned mostly into people hijacking it with their own ridiculous philosophies and all their continued complaints about their low drive partners. Too bad people couldn't just share what you asked for others to glean. Everybody else just has to show how right they are. I'm sorry this happened. I hate the mods let it get hijacked like this. As you told them, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other threads to do this on, and they can start some more of their own.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Her view of her husband and his sexual behavior was permanently altered.


Funny MEM, my dog passed away about 4 weeks ago and my drive has disappeared since... I guess, stress? Or whatever? So, I can relate to my wife lack of drive very much...


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I'm not following the posts all that closely, but I guessing the tie in to the thread's stated purpose would be that ultimately an HD asking for or accepting "duty sex" leads to a reduction of desire from the LD. Is that it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





EleGirl said:


> There is a problem in responding to this... We have to decide what we are talking about. The term "LD" is being so loosely here that it's impossible to address the questions because there are different answers depending on the situation.
> 
> "LD" means low sexual drive. Most people who appear to be LD are not LD. They are harboring resentment and anger because they believe that there are martial problems that are so huge that they do not want sex with their spouse .. they are basically sexually turned off by the marriage problems. Keep in mind that men are as likely was women to make a marriage low sex or no sex.
> 
> ...



I wasn't asking a question other than what the tie in was for the topic being discussed (which seemed to be duty sex) to the intended topic of this thread.

I was offering my experience on how some on either side of any sort of LD./hd relationship might think duty sex is desirable to the HD. My experience was that it appealed to me at first because it didn't seem like duty sex -- either that part wasn't clearly communicated to me or I evaded the truths presented and fooled myself into thinking it meant more than it really did. Later, and still, I came to see it as undesirable and a turn off.

I wholeheartedly agree LD/HD are diluted or not adequate terms, making discussions here problematic. I will add in some cases, the fundamental issues in a relationship morph over time. In my case, I believe what started as low drive due to exhaustion/depression morphed into deep relationship/trust/resentment issues. The disconnect sexually that was present the whole time looks superficially unchanged, but it's roots are quite different now.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Carla,
> 
> I have no idea what it's like to live within a sexually broken marriage.
> 
> ...


This happened to me. When I first started on hormonal therapy, we had troubles getting the levels to where I needed them. The doctor started me on low levels and gradually raised them until she got it right. She doubled my testosterone gel and then about a month later, I found myself on a fascinating journey into uncharted territory. For the next 6 months, i was absolutely sex crazed all the time. My husband could not keep up, and for the first time ever, I actually considered having an affair. Thankfully, I never followed through with the thought. The next hormonal tests showed that my testosterone level was extremely high- like 10 times higher than it should have been. I was extremely relieved to find out there was a reason for the craziness, and to get back into known territory when we finally got the levels down again. Honestly I don't know how anyone deals with so much testosterone day in and day out. I applaud those of you who deal with it all the time and stay faithful.

Since we are already deviating from the original topic some what and are now on the topic of what is the definition of low drive and the different categories - I have to add the rest of my experience with the hormones. 

Even after getting my testosterone levels down, they still ran higher than normal (for women my age bracket) for several years. And I had a very healthy sex drive, although thankfully, a much more comfortable and manageable one than the extreme high level drive. It's only been this past year and a half that my level has gotten closer to the more normal range for women in my age bracket. 

Now, at these more normal levels, sadly, I am finding that I rarely feel horny anymore. I don't get turned on by seeing movies or reading books, or even fantasizing about sex - like I did the years previous when the level was higher than normal. Because I know the benefits to my marriage of having a happy frequent sex relationship with my husband, I have been determined not to let myself slip back into rejecting mode. It is a battle though, because I really am quite satisfied not to have sex there days. And (back to the original topic) quite frankly, I have to admit that sometimes I have had an interaction with my husband that makes me not want to have sex with him, even if I was horny. (Cause we are both human and sometimes our interactions with each other aren't always pleasant) . However, I have figured out that many times when my husband initiates sex, even though I don't feel desire, or feel turned on immediately, if I relax, allow my brain AND body to go with the flow, and have a lot of foreplay sex, I usually will get turned on and have a good sexual experience with my husband. There are times when I can't get my body to turn on, but during those times, when my brain and emotions are engaged, I still feel a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction from just pleasing my husband. 

Hubby had a hard time at first during the times I suggested we just concentrate on him because my body was not cooperating. But he has learned that I really mean it when I say I want to "do" him. And he knows that when I really don't want to do anything, I will be honest about it. And if it's a resentment issue causing me not to want to, then we work it out so it doesn't fester and grow. As he has aged, and his testosterone has decreased, he now actually declines occasionally when I initiate. 

So these experiences with the realm of different testosterone levels - from one end of the spectrum to the other, has made me wonder:

1. If a person is really what has been termed a "true LD", is it possible that they could get into sex and enjoy it more often, if they could learn to relax and go with the flow, and figure out how to allow their brain (which I have learned really is my biggest sex organ) to do its work in providing some of the desire and turn on feelings that their body does not naturally provide?

2. If this were to be the case for other "LD s" - which I am not saying it is for anyone else but me - but if it were the case for others, would they then be willing to put in the extra mental efforts to help bridge the gap between the opposite desire levels, simply for the benefit of their HD spouse?

3. If an LD was able to increase the frequency a bit and was really trying, let's say getting the frequency up to once a week, but sex still was no where near what the HD wanted, would their effort be appreciated and accepted by the HD spouse and could the HD learn to be satisfied and happy with their LD spouses best effort?

4. Even if a spouse has a natural biological low drive, what keeps them from actively and enthusiastically participating in sexual activity with their spouse simply to please and satisfy them? (Yeah, I know- the million dollar question)

I am throwing these questions out there for discussion? Thoughts - experiences? Low drive spouse's (from all categories) speak up. Share your thoughts and your own experiences with us.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Maybe 1 year ago my elbow started giving me grief.

So I stopped lifting. So my T levels dropped. Over time they fell below a critical threshold. 

And now I know what it feels like to have responsive desire. That's what I have now. Luckily it's strong responsive desire. But still - it isn't the same. 

I used to have this intense build up/anticipation - loved it. That's all gone now. 

I don't much care for responsive desire - to be honest. And we are over the moon lucky that M2 and I are in synch when it comes to pacing and foreplay. 

At risk of sounding like I've switched teams mid game:

For fvcks sake it's weird in the beginning - when you aren't feeling anything yet. You know you are expectED to have sex, and you aren't at all turned on yet. 

And I want to be perfectly clear on my use of language here. You know you are expectED to have sex. There's someone you love expectING you to get turned on. 

I'm not oversimplifying when I say that if M2 was impatient or rushing me through the experience - that would be a train wreck. 

The whole reason I stay relaxed and am able to let nature take its course is because M2 is both skillful and patient. 

And of course - the reasons I don't reject her are: 
- In under 10 minutes I AM turned on and it is very good
- During the first 10 minutes M2 isn't pressuring, rushing or touching me in a way that feels bad. Her soft, low key ramp up feels nice. 
- I love her
- And karma matters - she was good to me for the first 15 testosterone saturated years of our marriage and then the next ten gradually slowing down years...










mary35 said:


> This happened to me. When I first started on hormonal therapy, we had troubles getting the levels to where I needed them. The doctor started me on low levels and gradually raised them until she got it right. She doubled my testosterone gel and then about a month later, I found myself on a fascinating journey into uncharted territory. For the next 6 months, i was absolutely sex crazed all the time. My husband could not keep up, and for the first time ever, I actually considered having an affair. Thankfully, I never followed through with the thought. The next hormonal tests showed that my testosterone level was extremely high- like 10 times higher than it should have been. I was extremely relieved to find out there was a reason for the craziness, and to get back into known territory when we finally got the levels down again. Honestly I don't know how anyone deals with so much testosterone day in and day out. I applaud those of you who deal with it all the time and stay faithful.
> 
> Since we are already deviating from the original topic some what and are now on the topic of what is the definition of low drive and the different categories - I have to add the rest of my experience with the hormones.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> There's no question that the 'frustrated HD' members of TAM tend to be more overtly angry, resentful and bitter than their LD brethren.
> 
> I'm going to share a very short story with you in the hope that it might give you a bit more compassion for the HD folks on the other side of this discussion.
> 
> ...


My view was permanently altered when this came upon me... didn't need any meds.. could have been the beginning of Peri-Menopause... My reaction to my Husband after dealing with this for a short time ...I had a range of intense emotions....

As my Husband put himself DOWN .. never one to push , didn't show anger.. He didn't do ANY of the things Mary spoke of to turn me off, always put MY pleasure before his own...... except when she spoke of her husband *not communicating how he felt*..mine was silent here too... putting that into words would have been very vulnerable for him... to him that could have opened up further rejection....would hurt too much.. (I rarely rejected though).. unless one calls a book in my hands in bed rejection.. (actually he did feel rejected- without even trying many nights)

He convinced himself he had it "good enough" at least I initiated & loved sex..he just wanted it more so. 

My reaction , after being put in these shoes ...

We had this deep conversation in the bathroom one night after I wrote him a letter expressing how I want to take him to the heights, angry at myself for missing it .. but our time is NOW..how I am there for him in every way.. wanting to ride the waves together... I was remorseful....

AND HORNY...

I looked at him, with the serious of faces...tears even.... asking him "How in the hell did you DO THAT?'''(putting himself down those yrs).. I told him I couldn't even stand to go without it FOR A DAY... I had such compassion for him...

But at the same time...

I was MAD at him .. like dam* it.. I had a right to know how He was feeling...he's a part of ME.. then I got pi$$ed thinking he denied us both..because really.. I loved "making love".... I would have enjoyed his flirting with me more so.. he wasn't the type to come on strongly - never playfully wrestled me to the ground sort of thing.......what FUN we missed!.... I learned how he looked up some asinine article on the net about doing my dishes & pushing the vacuum to get me in the mood... what a waste. 

I know one thing.. I would be one of those Obnoxious spouses who would likely drive a LOW driver to want nothing to do with me....(just being honest).. 

When I was in the midst of that..it's true... I went out of my way to make his life as carefree as possible, I catered to his every need.. I was a living porn star at his command...I think I wanted commanded even... it would have crushed me ...with the efforts I went to to please him.. if he started rejecting me.. pushing me away...*I wouldn't have had the patience for it*....not when I was feeling THAT WAY.... 

Because he loves sex.. always did.. always will...being high on the Physical touch bar...we got through that ...making mid life like an awakening Honeymoon... .even if he couldn't keep up.. he told me if he could get it up, he wanted to use it .. he never pushed me away.. I just feel like I owe him the world.. that was MY TIME OF NEED...and he did all he could.. Amazing man I married.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Right there with you. 

When people say: I get rejected 9 times out of 10 - I think - how can that be possible? 

After two sequential rejections I'd just say: let me know when you WANT me.....







SimplyAmorous said:


> My view was permanently altered when this came upon me... didn't need any meds.. could have been the beginning of Peri-Menopause... My reaction to my Husband after dealing with this for a short time ...I had a range of intense emotions....
> 
> As my Husband put himself DOWN .. never one to push , didn't show anger.. He didn't do ANY of the things Mary spoke of to turn me off, always put MY pleasure before his own...... except when she spoke of her husband *not communicating how he felt*..mine was silent here too... putting that into words would have been very vulnerable for him... to him that could have opened up further rejection....would hurt too much.. (I rarely rejected though).. unless one calls a book in my hands in bed rejection.. (actually he did feel rejected- without even trying many nights)
> 
> ...


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Wow, really interesting thread but to answer Mary's questions.
In my marriage I probably have been the LD partner for the latter 5 years or so, had to take HRT etc, helped a bit but not much. If there are problems in the marriage with resentment, etc then it is difficult (for the woman) to 'turn it on.' Although in my case that is the very thing that can help to change the climate in the marriage.
My peeves about my HD partner (was) is 
1. he is more interested in the end result rather than the journey which can often leave me feeling meh
2. when i want affection, hug etc he makes it sexual, i dont like that, why can't a hug be a hug?
3. we dont really talk about sex, likes dislikes etc, though now he is having some ED problems, he tries to share.
4. There is not enough tenderness
5. There is no romance
6. Too much familiarity - complacency I think on both sides
i know this is primarily due to the difference between men and women but it is a two way process. You meet my need for romance and tenderness and I will reciprocate. How difficult is that?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> Right there with you.
> 
> When people say: I get rejected 9 times out of 10 - I think - how can that be possible?
> ...


I'd likely have an "attitude" saying this.. One thing I didn't mention in my post was.. when I asked him how in the world he contained himself *>>* His answer to me was... "*I love you*".... Jeez...sweet... but yet... I can't understand it... I looked at him and rambled something how I could never love THAT MUCH.... I am not that sacrificial... I want mine!! (can you see I am the selfish partner here !).... I would be eaten with resentment.. and look at him as my mortal enemy or something...if I felt neglected & rejected too much. 

That night I also learned he didn't masturbate... asking this trying to understand HIM....I told him he had to be lying...come on... that's not normal...but he swore it....told me he felt like that would be "cheating".. then I had to tell him I was a cheater then... being a fly on the wall for this CRAZY conversation we had..can anyone miss each other this badly!! Hes starving & I am the one who masturbated !

Ya know we think NICE MEN are *weak*.. but I tend to look at him either as VERY STRONG or very stupid...I guess it's a combination.. Strong for consistently loving in spite of these things, never showed any pouting, trying to guilt trip me, fight with me, never removed his affection...he was scratching my back every night, fingers through my hair watching movies......beings I was not a bit turned off by him.. he had so much to work with [email protected]# 

I'm NOT strong like my husband, I am so weak in this area.. ... if I didn't feel desired on a regular basis by him..everything we have would have been tainted, withered...and probably died. 

I can not stand the idea of being a burden in any way, sexually or otherwise..I wouldn't beg... but I would start thinking what I am missing over the fence.. When I hear High drivers talk like this.. It makes all the sense in the world to me. 

You always have the greatest compassion for the Low Drivers on here MEM....this doesn't come easy for me.. ...I know I am looking through my own experience of HOW EASY it was for me to give more... then I have to remind myself in reading others stories... what may be lacking on the other side ......like the points *AINE* just gave.. I can understand her being RESENTFUL TOO ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

SA, I think it is hard for many of us to understand the other side, especially in high drive/low drive conflicts. I know I did not understand how hard it was for my husband. I didn't need sex, and I seldom got horny. Unlike you, I did not love sex. I mostly associated it with guilt and feeling bad - so I mentally turned myself off. Because of my dysfunctional mentality, sex was not bonding for me. It made me feel further apart from my husband because of the mindplay that went on in my head, instead of drawing me closer to him- like it does now. 

In the same way, my husband could not understand my side. Sex was a need for him. He could not understand why I didn't want it, why having orgasms would not be something I would want to have lots of. Sex made him feel close to me so he was hurt and confused that it did not do the same for me. Like your husband, SA, my husband kept all this hurt and feelings of rejection inside. Also a nice guy, he just felt this was his lot in life, plus he thought most women were the same as me anyways, so no use complaining. Although, his feelings of rejection did often come out in passive ways. We had a very dysfunctional relationship in many ways - yet for some reason - also a functional relationship in other ways. We were both committed to the marriage, and did not consider divorce as a serious option. After years of the dysfunction, with built up resentments on both of our parts, we fell into a comfortable realistic acceptance of our sex life - he was always going to want to try to have more sex, and I was always going to not want more sex - and provide the bare minimum. In my mind the fact that we had sex now and then was my compromise. And in some ways, I think he accepted that as fact also. 

It was not until I had the experience with the extremely high level of testosterone, that I truly understood what my husband felt like all those years. And the aging process has also allowed my husband a glimpse into my side of the picture - although, he will never understand the "Good girls don't" dysfunctional mindset that greatly contributed to my not wanting sex.


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

sex in marriage is a changing paradigm. It doesn't stay constant and with marriage involving two people, our needs, desires and wants are constantly changing. I'm HD in my relationship and my husband would be considered LD. While reading this thread, I had to evaluate why I wanted sex so often even for the most part I don't orgasm during the act with H. I recently had this discussion with him. I am always looking for ways to feel closer to him and have had a very skewed way of looking at sex. For what I know of myself, I'm a giver and a caretaker by nature and this played a big role in how I approached sex in my marriage so I liked giving to my H. But with the recent discovery of his waywardness, I had to evaluate my responsibility in the marriage and how constantly being the giver, I wasn't meeting my own emotional, sexually and physical need in my relationship. I had to step up and make sure I communicated how I wasn't being satisfied in the relationship and also through self pleasure to discover the things that I enjoy about my body and feeling free to discuss this with H. Women and men get too many bad, bad, bad ideas about what sex is supposed to be like from porn and erotica fictions. I guess the main thing about being in a HD/LD relationship is that there has to be a give and take on both sides. The LD should be sensitive to the HD partner and understands their drive for physical connection fuels their intimacy in the relationship. HD should be sensitive that LD partner drive is fuelled by non sexually touch and connection outside the bedroom. Then both parties should agree on the number of times that satisfy them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

You just freed up a memory I have that is similar. 

7 years ago, a combination of events happened simultaneously including:
- Me having a sports injury and taking pain meds
- M2 having a female procedure done - whch put her out of commission

But here's the key thing - for the first time in my adult life - my sex drive flipped off, as if someone had thrown a light switch. 

And it was OFF for two straight weeks. Totally and completely off. 

Then the 2 weeks ended. What I now know with certainty is that all I needed to ignite my sleeping desire - was a bit of play time with M2. But since I was freaked out and didn't know that, I got a viagra scrip a couple days before the date where she was allowed - to have relations. 

After that incident - my empathy level was totally different. 

Because I had FELT it. 







mary35 said:


> SA, I think it is hard for many of us to understand the other side, especially in high drive/low drive conflicts. I know I did not understand how hard it was for my husband. I didn't need sex, and I seldom got horny. Unlike you, I did not love sex. I mostly associated it with guilt and feeling bad - so I mentally turned myself off. Because of my dysfunctional mentality, sex was not bonding for me. It made me feel further apart from my husband because of the mindplay that went on in my head, instead of drawing me closer to him- like it does now.
> 
> In the same way, my husband could not understand my side. Sex was a need for him. He could not understand why I didn't want it, why having orgasms would not be something I would want to have lots of. Sex made him feel close to me so he was hurt and confused that it did not do the same for me. Like your husband, SA, my husband kept all this hurt and feelings of rejection inside. Also a nice guy, he just felt this was his lot in life, plus he thought most women were the same as me anyways, so no use complaining. Although, his feelings of rejection did often come out in passive ways. We had a very dysfunctional relationship in many ways - yet for some reason - also a functional relationship in other ways. We were both committed to the marriage, and did not consider divorce as a serious option. After years of the dysfunction, with built up resentments on both of our parts, we fell into a comfortable realistic acceptance of our sex life - he was always going to want to try to have more sex, and I was always going to not want more sex - and provide the bare minimum. In my mind the fact that we had sex now and then was my compromise. And in some ways, I think he accepted that as fact also.
> 
> It was not until I had the experience with the extremely high level of testosterone, that I truly understood what my husband felt like all those years. And the aging process has also allowed my husband a glimpse into my side of the picture - although, he will never understand the "Good girls don't" dysfunctional mindset that greatly contributed to my not wanting sex.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

aine said:


> Wow, really interesting thread but to answer Mary's questions.
> In my marriage I probably have been the LD partner for the latter 5 years or so, had to take HRT etc, helped a bit but not much. If there are problems in the marriage with resentment, etc then it is difficult (for the woman) to 'turn it on.' Although in my case that is the very thing that can help to change the climate in the marriage.
> My peeves about my HD partner (was) is
> 1. he is more interested in the end result rather than the journey which can often leave me feeling meh
> ...


Aine, thank you for sharing. I liked how you used the words "change the climate". I will be honest, and at the risk of being beat up again (and knowing Mem won't let me get beat up too bad.) I have to say that because marriage is a constant two way interaction, I really don't believe that there's many low drive/high drive conflicts that have been going on for awhile in a relationship, where resentment issues don't play some part in the conflict, even if the part is only creating a lack of desire to cooperate in working on the issue. And I believe that many times, depending on the reasons for the low drive and reasons for the high drive, dealing and resolving the resentment issues can help create a better climate (and spirit of cooperation) in working on the sexual issue. I believe however that this is way more likely if the sexual conflict is in the early stages and has not gone on for a long time. The longer the conflict goes on (and this is the case with any conflict in marriages), more and more layers of resentment get built up and the marital climate gets colder and colder, making it extremely hard for the couple to wade through the mess without professional help.

I do realize that there are many spouses that have done everything they can think of in order to do just that - deal with the resentment issues, work harder to meet their spouses needs, try to create a better climate - and still receive no change in the sexual arena. When this happens - it could be because of possible scenarios such as:

1. The low drive spouse is just incredibly selfish and does not care about their spouses needs or wants.

2. The low drive spouse has some kind of emotional or mental block towards sex or intimacy. (Unresolved past abuse, negative conditioning towards sex.

3. The low drive spouse does not love their spouse.

4. There are way too many layers of resentment built up to break through and/or too many bad habits that have to be changed.

5. The low drive is not attracted to their spouse and fir whatever reason actually feels turned off by them. 

There are many other reasons why the sexual conflict may continue in spite of the HDs best effort to improve themselves and the marital climate. However, I believe that if a couple is at this point, it is time to try professional help with a good sex therapist who has good success with dealing with many types of low drive/high drive conflicts. And if that still does not help, then they have to decide if they can live with the reality of their low/ or no sex marriage, knowing it will most likely never change.

The same is true for a low drive spouse whose HD spouse refuses to deal with any issues that contribute to the sexual conflict.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Mary35 said*: *SA, I think it is hard for many of us to understand the other side, especially in high drive/low drive conflicts. I know I did not understand how hard it was for my husband. I didn't need sex, and I seldom got horny. Unlike you, I did not love sex. I mostly associated it with guilt and feeling bad - so I mentally turned myself off. Because of my dysfunctional mentality, sex was not bonding for me. It made me feel further apart from my husband because of the mindplay that went on in my head, instead of drawing me closer to him- like it does now*.


Repression 101...and it's very harmful effects even after walking down the aisle..

I find it so very sad that it took THAT LONG to see the other side though..and for your husband.. OH MY does my heart go out to him!!..so he never felt passion & desire from you for all those years ? 

This is something else I don't understand..How did YOU feel most loved in those days.. or wanted to be fulfilled?? 

So basically...his wanting you , reaching for you was burdensome /annoying ?? Does this also mean if he told you -you looked sexy ...you felt it was wrong, Lust speaking? You found no pleasure is his eyes being upon you in that way?? 

So even in Dating...when you 1st met.. young /beautiful, hormones pumping...you seldom got horny??... you didn't want to fuse your bodies together... you didn't have sexual fantasies of boys/ men? 

I would have to say my LUST & enjoyment in "getting off " with each other over rode my religious teachings...Oh I felt some guilt (while dating)....but it was NEVER enough to STOP!... We just rode the fence ... we felt GOOD/ connected/ Loved with what we shared...



> *1. The low drive spouse is just incredibly selfish and does not care about their spouses needs or wants*.


 I have a little breakdown to share ...bouncing off an old thread here.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/39526-five-cases-refusal-what-really-means-refused.html



> *Sawney Beane said* : Simply Amorous said in another thread, regarding the pain of sexual refusal:
> "...They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marriage ...or at least a happy fulfilled one..."
> 
> I thought about this, based on reading here and what friends who are regularly refused tell me.
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> Right there with you.
> 
> When people say: I get rejected 9 times out of 10 - I think - how can that be possible?
> ...


Because when you do that, neither of you are trying and then you go for over a year with no touching other than snuggles.

You adapt and adjust... and hope springs eternal.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> Right there with you.
> 
> When people say: I get rejected 9 times out of 10 - I think - how can that be possible?
> ...


It doesn't mean the rejections happened all in one night. It could be more like this:

Night 1 - initiates sex, gets turned down. Tried again a few hours later, rejected again.
Morning - initiates sex, rejected. 
Night 2 - initiates sex, rejected. 
Night 3 - initiates sex, rejected again. tries again, also rejected. 
Night 4 - initiates sex and actually happens
Night 5 - initiates sex, rejected. tried again, rejected again.

And so on. 

I can see how it would happen.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

aine said:


> My peeves about my HD partner (was) is
> 1. he is more interested in the end result rather than the journey which can often leave me feeling meh
> *2. when i want affection, hug etc he makes it sexual, i dont like that, why can't a hug be a hug?*
> 3. we dont really talk about sex, likes dislikes etc, though now he is having some ED problems, he tries to share.
> ...


I remember my husband complaining about the bolded part before, as he has felt pressured a lot for sex. I tried to explain it as sitting next to your favorite dessert. You can look at it, smell it, and touch it, but you can't eat it. It's almost like torture. I can hug and touch my husband, but it typically won't go farther than that. When we have sex more often, a hug is easily just a hug. But when sex is few and far between, it's difficult to keep things 'innocent' and not make it sexual. It's that tempting dessert right in front of you.


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## CS7 (Apr 1, 2015)

> Anonymous07;12368897]When we have sex more often, a hug is easily just a hug. But when sex is few and far between, it's difficult to keep things 'innocent' and not make it sexual.


:iagree:

Perfectly encapsulates my own experience. The older I've gotten, the more patient I've become, but when I was younger, this was a huge struggle.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mary35 said:


> Aine, thank you for sharing. I liked how you used the words "change the climate". I will be honest, and at the risk of being beat up again (and knowing Mem won't let me get beat up too bad.) I have to say that because marriage is a constant two way interaction, I really don't believe that there's many low drive/high drive conflicts that have been going on for awhile in a relationship, where resentment issues don't play some part in the conflict, even if the part is only creating a lack of desire to cooperate in working on the issue. And I believe that many times, depending on the reasons for the low drive and reasons for the high drive, dealing and resolving the resentment issues can help create a better climate (and spirit of cooperation) in working on the sexual issue. I believe however that this is way more likely if the sexual conflict is in the early stages and has not gone on for a long time. The longer the conflict goes on (and this is the case with any conflict in marriages), more and more layers of resentment get built up and the marital climate gets colder and colder, making it extremely hard for the couple to wade through the mess without professional help.
> 
> I do realize that there are many spouses that have done everything they can think of in order to do just that - deal with the resentment issues, work harder to meet their spouses needs, try to create a better climate - and still receive no change in the sexual arena. When this happens - it could be because of possible scenarios such as:
> 
> ...


All good points.

I'd like to add another scenario.

The spouse withholding sex is not LD at all. They have a sex drive equal to their spouse's. But they don't want sex with their spouse for reasons like anger, resentment, etc.

Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It

In that book it lists why men say that the withhold sex. Most men withhold sex for reasons such as anger and resentment. Basically there are marital issues that are not being addressed.

There are books that talk about women.. most women who do not want sex with their spouse are not LD. Again, basically there are marital issues that are not being addressed.

When I see a list of things like in Mary's & aine's post above... What I see is a woman who is not happy in her marriage because her husband is not meeting her needs... important needs. So she no longer desires much or any sex with her husband.

I have a question for the women and men here who are self identifying as LD. Are you really LD? Or is the state of your relationship with your spouse turning you off to your spouse?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

mary35 said:


> What about the HD spouses. What part does the HD spouse play in the sexual clash with their LD spouse?
> 
> HD's - feel free to contribute - but only by asking questions to understand more...


I would question your definition of basic terms, because it really seems to me like you've described a sexual mismatch rather than true HD and LD. 

It's not that I don't take you point. Someone can claim they're HD until the cows come home, but if they're selfish, unintuitive and emotionally distant, they're going to frustrate and discourage a partner who may actually be HD in their own right. 

True LD is a different animal altogether...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> I would question your definition of basic terms, because it really seems to me like you've described a sexual mismatch rather than true HD and LD.
> 
> It's not that I don't take you point. Someone can claim they're HD until the cows come home, but if they're selfish, unintuitive and emotionally distant, they're going to frustrate and discourage a partner who may actually be HD in their own right.
> 
> True LD is a different animal altogether...


When I use the terms HD and LD in this thread - I am mostly talking about sides of a HD/LD conflict meaning that there is one spouse who wants more sex (HD) than another - and the spouse who wants less sex (LD) - is controlling the frequency - or lack of frequency which has created a conflict in the marriage. I am not talking about a type of person. I am aware that there can be spouses who actually have a natural high sex drive - but for some reason they won't or can't have sex as often as the other spouse wants to have it - so a conflict exists between them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What you're describing is what happens when you choose to keep meeting all of someone's needs while they ignore and stonewall you. 

I have no experience with doing that. 




CopperTop said:


> Because when you do that, neither of you are trying and then you go for over a year with no touching other than snuggles.
> 
> You adapt and adjust... and hope springs eternal.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

SA - to answer your questions:

SA - "Repression 101...and it's very harmful effects even after walking down the aisle.."

Yes - definitely repression 101

SA - "I find it so very sad that it took THAT LONG to see the other side though..and for your husband.. OH MY does my heart go out to him!!..so he never felt passion & desire from you for all those years ?"

Yes - very sad - and such a waste of time. I am extremely angry at myself for what I did. I did not do it on purpose - but I am still responsible for it happening!  

SA - "This is something else I don't understand..How did YOU feel most loved in those days.. or wanted to be fulfilled?? 

So basically...his wanting you , reaching for you was burdensome /annoying ?? Does this also mean if he told you -you looked sexy ...you felt it was wrong, Lust speaking? You found no pleasure is his eyes being upon you in that way?? 
"

First off - My number one language of love is service. So I felt loved the most when hubby helped me around the house - when he helped with the kids or helped me with projects that were important to me. Touch is not high on my list. It is high on my husbands list though - so yeah he suffered a lot with me for many years. 

When I talk about the repressed years of my marriage - I am talking about the years after I developed what I refer to as "Good Girl Syndrome. When Hubby and I first got together as teens in high school - I was somewhat rebellious - and my hormones were definitely in high drive., as were his as a normal male teen. I masturbated as a teen and I enjoyed having orgasms. Hubby and I eventually allowed our hormones to take over and we had our first sexual experience before we were married. We were both virgins at the time. This was a huge no-no in our religion. I later became pregnant and we were married - both still in our teens. (Proof of our no-no behavior before marriage). 

During the first several years of our marriage the sex was frequent as we were still operating as highly hormonal teens. We were inexperienced and very naïve about sex and both made many mistakes during the early years. The biggest mistake we both made in the sexual arena was our lack of communication about sex. 

Having babies quickly - one after another - forced us to grow up quickly in order to deal with our new adult responsibilities. Yet we lacked the necessary communication skills and many other important relationship skills that could have helped us navigate those stressful and overwhelming early years better. 

As we both increasingly turned back to our religion and became more "spiritual minded" - I started to feel a lot of guilt for my rebellious years and the pre-marital sex and masturbation. I wanted to do right in the "eyes of God" and so I "repented" of my former "sins". I had a hard time reconciling some things I had heard or had been taught as a teen. One big ideal I had a hard time reconciling in my mind was the ideal that if a 'righteous' male truly loves a female - he would never degrade her by having sex with her before marriage. The ideal that when my husband desired me and lusted after me before we were married was bad - and because he allowed himself to have sex with me - that meant he did not love me then - but after we were married when he desired me and lusted after me - it was suppose to be good, and it was suppose to mean he loved me. This made little sense to me. This contradiction started to play in my mind after several years of marriage, when I also was dealing with some resentment issues that had built up and festered and was somewhat insecure with myself and his love for me at that time. Sex began more and more to feel uncomfortable to me - and more and more I associated it with feeling bad and lots and lots of guilt - instead of feelings of love and comfort.

As my faulty repressed thinking continued to evolve, I began to develop a fear of doing the wrong thing in the "eyes of God" during our sexual activities - and created a long list of dos and don'ts during sex. The more repressed my thinking about sex became - the more I avoided having sex and eventually I began shutting down any and all sexual feelings. Compound that with normal relationship issues and problems in our marriage, made worse because of poor relationship skills from getting married too early, add in a heavy dose of resentment issues that we both did not deal with, and sprinkle all that on top of maga feelings of being overwhelmed with financial worries and parenting responsibilities. We were children raising children for several of those years. So yes - our HD/LD conflict gradually developed, flourished, and continued a very long time. (This is a very simplified explanation of many years of marriage - which of course leaves out a lot.) 

Yes - for the most part (although - again - it is way more complicated and hard to explain in this short space) - after the sexual conflict was in full bloom, his initiating sex with me was extremely burdensome/annoying. If he told me I looked sexy - that bothered me somewhat - because I thought he only said that because he wanted to have sex when he said that . If he told me I looked nice or pretty - that was fine - and I appreciated those kinds of comments. Yes - when he looked upon me lustfully, I did not feel pleasure from that

SA - "So even in Dating...when you 1st met.. young /beautiful, hormones pumping...you seldom got horny??... you didn't want to fuse your bodies together... you didn't have sexual fantasies of boys/ men?"

In the early years as a teen - I often felt horny and had sexual fantasies. In the early years of our marriage I also often felt horny - and fantasized about sex. As I became more religious and the faulty repressed thinking became more and more prevalent - I turned off most of my sexual feelings. I still occasionally felt horny - and allowed my husband to give me orgasms - but the thoughts and fears that controlled my mind during sex - made the pleasurable sensations fade away quickly and I was often left feeling bad when we were done. 

Yes - a very long, sad situation indeed - and a miserable one for my husband. Looking back it was not great for me either - but back then I honestly didn't realize just how bad it was for the both of us.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

The decrease in sex - and my developing the repressed feelings about sex - happened gradually over a period of about 8 years. We had several children by then - I was often overwhelmed and stressed with being a mom and meeting my children's needs, so my husband attributed the decline mostly to those reasons. 

At our worst, we had sex anywhere between one time a week - to a couple times a month and I mostly only allowed man on top missionary position intercourse - and very little else. 

Again - we never discussed the decline with each other - or his feelings about it and the quality of the sex. I knew he was not happy about it and wanted more sex. But in my mind, it was just a want - not a need. And I had a lot of wants that were not fulfilled either - so suck it up bud! Yes - I really thought that back then - among other things.

I have a lot of regrets, my husband has a lot of regrets. We both agree we wasted what should have been the best sexual years of our marriage - for very poor reasons. Neither of us meant to hurt the other - but we did. Neither of us really understood what was happening at the time - or how to deal with it. We both played a part in all of the interactions we had - both the good ones and bad ones. My part in the sexual conflict was the main creator of the sexual dysfunction - and I was totally responsible for the lack of sex and the quality of it. Like I said - I controlled the sex as the LD spouse in the conflict. 

We did love each other, and for some unexplainable reason - the love between us managed to last in spite or our mess. We were very lucky that it did - because in most cases like ours - it does not!

I started this thread in an effort to help others. I bare my soul here (and as you can see - it is not a pretty soul) - with a hope in helping others avoid the pitfalls we fell into.

LD/HD sexual conflicts are all too common in marriages. These sexual conflicts exist for a mirad of reasons. But the result is the same for them all - damage to the relationship and damage to the marriage. 

The conflicts don't have to go on and on - lasting years - and sometimes the whole marriage. I strongly believe that when dealt with earlier before layers and layers of resentment have built up - there is a better chance of ending the sexual conflict and working out the issues to a point where there is reasonable satisfaction for both spouses. It takes effort and cooperation from both spouses - it takes hard work, and unselfish attitudes, compromises from both spouses - and sometimes professional help. But when successful - it is well worth the effort!!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *mary35 said*: When I talk about the repressed years of my marriage - I am talking about the years after I developed what I refer to as *"Good Girl Syndrome.* When Hubby and I first got together as teens in high school - I was somewhat rebellious - and my hormones were definitely in high drive., as were his as a normal male teen. I masturbated as a teen and I enjoyed having orgasms. Hubby and I eventually allowed our hormones to take over and we had our first sexual experience before we were married. We were both virgins at the time. This was a huge no-no in our religion. I later became pregnant and we were married - both still in our teens. (Proof of our no-no behavior before marriage).


Mary.. thank you for baring your soul ....if out of those lost years...if just a handful of women, a marriage in crisis...comes across your story where this is at it's roots...it could make a difference in their seeking help....

I've never looked up "Good Girl syndrome"...I just thought that was a phrase...found this link to explain it...

** The Good Girl Syndrome | StrengtheningMarriage.com

I wouldn't have thought... with your beginnings..loving those orgasms/ hormones pumping naturally as nature intended ..this sort of thing happens...I can't fathom my brain shutting off wanting orgasms- in any way!

As far as compatibility sexually...your Husband wouldn't have had any warnings for things to come !....you & he had it going on! In Biblical days they married in their teens when these feelings were stirring in their loins.. what is expected from our young people in purity.. it can really do a # on some if taken TOO seriously!! 

I can't imagine the magnitude of regret here.. I whine how I missed my Husband when I put his sperm before his pleasure ..our struggle to CONCEIVE after our 1st son....spanning almost 7 yrs...read many books on how sperm meets egg...but never picked one up on pleasing my Husband !! Timing sex wasn't helping matters, this took a HIT on my husband... 

For us all.. there is some monkey wrench we need to wade through.. You had too many kids quickly...we struggled to have them!.. 

Back to the Repression...2 stories I have come across always stuck in my mind... how TRAGIC... There was this one on MarriageBed.org... College lovers...Hot , heavy, great sex...found God.. stopped sex cold turkey -feeling Guilt for sinning... they set a date to marry.... he was so looking forward to starting where they left off.. pumped, ready to take his wife.... she, on the other hand....during those months... she suppressed / repressed ,however it can be explained... lost all care or desire - like it turned on her... poisoned her mind in this area.. ...On their wedding night, she told her husband she didn't care if they ever had sex again... 6 months passed.. she seemed numb to his touch... this man was desperate for help ... he hated the idea of divorce.. but he was "drowning"..... 

Also a poster here years back... she summed up her story...(leaving names out)....copying & pasting.... of all things I have read on TAM.. this one I never forgot... 



> This whole "Thou shall not desire" business is the precise reason I denied my husband sex for 4 1/2 years and why I am now in therapy to try to remove the brainwashed notion from my repressed and guilt-stricken brain.
> 
> It's why I started having panic attacks when I finally came out of my shell, sexually. It's why I still fight with extreme anxiety at times. It's why my therapist thinks I'm actually going through the stages of grief that I've missed out on the first several years of my marriage due to intense repression/religious guilt.
> 
> ...





> *Mary35 said*: As we both increasingly turned back to our religion and became more "spiritual minded" - I started to feel a lot of guilt for my rebellious years and the pre-marital sex and masturbation. I wanted to do right in the "eyes of God" and so I "repented" of my former "sins". I had a hard time reconciling some things I had heard or had been taught as a teen. One big ideal I had a hard time reconciling in my mind was the ideal that if a 'righteous' male truly loves a female - he would never degrade her by having sex with her before marriage. The ideal that when my husband desired me and lusted after me before we were married was bad - and because he allowed himself to have sex with me - that meant he did not love me then - but after we were married when he desired me and lusted after me - it was suppose to be good, and it was suppose to mean he loved me. This made little sense to me.
> 
> This contradiction started to play in my mind after several years of marriage, when I also was dealing with some *resentment issues* that had built up and festered and was somewhat insecure with myself and his love for me at that time. Sex began more and more to feel uncomfortable to me - and more and more I associated it with feeling bad and lots and lots of guilt - instead of feelings of love and comfort.


So it was a lack of communication, RESENTMENT on some other things plus the OVER ANALYZING /feelings of guilt.. not allowing you to rest in what WAS... that you were still blessed with children meant to BE.. that his god given natural desires were GOOD -and yours for continued bonding ... even if before walking down the aisle... it was still Love being expressed.

I wonder if you blame RELIGION for this loss ...how you've had to reconcile THIS coming out of it ?? and in how you get this across to warn your children/ grand children to NOT go down this path? 

You spoke guilt over masturbating.. like this needs repentance too?? I used to feel DIRTY about that.. but honesty... the sexual fantasies were just TOO pleasurable ~ Gotta have some fun or what's the point of living! 

It's funny I went on to that MarriageBed.org forum with how we handled ourselves before marriage, seen a thread on "Mutual masturbation"... thought I'd jump in there.. I guess I wanted to get slammed.. what was I [email protected]# Some of those people even think Kissing is pushing the line...basically they took what I DON'T REGRET and would do ALL OVER AGAIN.. and trampled it telling me I need to repent ...Oh please.. ..sure there was a conflict in my brain back then too.. but in the same breath.. I also felt -and strongly..... to live as PURE as some church teachings went on....I would have only viewed God was a COMPLETE and utter Ogre and KILL JOY.. I guess I made my own rules... felt good about the boundaries I / we had..all the while our emotional connection grew...our sexuality is meant to be expressed in Love.. it only makes sense...be responsible.. do not harm.. If enough people could handle JUST THIS... how much better our world would be. Even that is asking too much! You & Husband...your children were still conceived in love.. you were committed to each other... just came a little quicker than expected.. it happens ! Sometimes we're just too hard on ourselves.

Speaking of self pleasuring....many yrs ago...I felt that was so wrong when Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders was done a hatchet Job in the media - her getting fired talking openly about Masturbation...suggesting exploring & acceptance for our teens... article about that here...

The Dreaded "M" Word  ... if anything.. this self expression helps CURB our teens from pent up sexual tension so they can sleep & get their work done! ...Shouldn't be a dirty word..


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

As a HD husband married for 20 years to a LD wife (but not in the first 10 years) I can only say that it's impossible for an HD person to understand how an LD person feels. HD people never experience the total lack of sexual desire of LD people. It's impossible for them to relate to it. But I just have. My dog died and my desire just completely vanished. I know now. It's been a revelation.

But my point is: I wish my wife were honest with me and said to me - "honey, I only want sex once a month, if at all". Instead of dragging this sad marriage along for many more years. She wasn't happy to compromise, I wasn't happy to wait and be miserable. So, if you are LD, *be honest with your partner*, and be prepared to take the consequences. It's not fair on anybody, otherwise.

If my wife told me this 10 years ago, I would have left, no doubt about it. Instead, I'm still here, waiting for the kids to fly the nest...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Taken from this article *>>* The Good Girl Syndrome ....thought I would post this....



> Positive Affirmations about Sex
> 
> It can be helpful to have some suggested affirmations for reprogramming one’s mind regarding sex. It’s especially valuable if you can create some of your own, but here’s a few to get you started:
> 
> ...


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

mary35 said:


> I started this thread in an effort to help others. I bare my soul here (and as you can see - it is not a pretty soul) - with a hope in helping others avoid the pitfalls we fell into.




Nonsense. Yours is a pretty soul. Maybe tortured at times. But beautiful nonetheless.



We aren't born knowing everything we need to know about ourselves and our partners. What matters is you adapted and learned and cared. I would guess your husband has greatly appreciated it.



To answer your question #3, way above:



Yes, if my LD had shown a desire to close the gap between us, and made an effort to meet lovingly some of my need for touch and sexual intimacy, it would have been greatly appreciated.



Once per week -- I can't remember when that felt like it would have been in the realm of possibility. But, honestly, I feel pretty sure that would have made all the difference in the world. (Seems like it has been at least a year and a half, not counting her twice falling asleep during... For years prior, 3-4 times a year was our norm.)



If she changed now and offers a once per week experience, I'm not sure what that would mean to me. In the space if ten minutes here my mind went back and forth a few times from thinking it would mean quite much -- would make it possible to stay in this marriage and have a cheerful heart, getting past getting the kids to adulthood, to thinking it would mean she would be doing it only to engineer keeping me here to be a provider (by her own admission once, the reason she hadn't left me years before).


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Do I blame religion? I use to. But honestly - what happened was my own fault. My brain took in all the negative messages from religion, from my upbringing, and even from society - and ignored all the positive messages - and then my brain created a tangled mess of God's view on sexuality. Again - the blame squarely rests on my shoulders. But blame is such a useless waste of energy isn't it? 

In my late 40's I had some experiences where my sexuality woke up quite suddenly (literally overnight). For the first time in years, I was horny, and wanted sex - and orgasms - and lots of it. My "sexual awakening" had little to do with anything husband my husband did at the time - although he greatly benefited. it was mostly a physical craving for sex. Fortunately our relationship was fairly strong at the time (surprisingly so given the sex situation) as we had both come to an understanding and acceptance that things were the way they were and were not likely to change - and had worked through many of our resentment issues. We also had learned to communicate better (on most issues, except for sex). Because our love was still there - my physical sexual awakening and new sexual behaviors were directed only towards my husband. 

Where did the sexual awakening come from - why did it occur? I don't really know for sure. It really seemed to come out of nowhere. I now believe it was probably caused by hormonal spikes and adjustments from changes in my body caused by pre-menopause, which I understand sometimes happens.

Shortly after, some other occurrences made me begin to question my religious faith and beliefs, which also led me to begin to question my faulty beliefs on sex. It took a couple years of stepping back from religion completely - along with some deep introspection, some therapy, and participation on forums with people who also dealt with similar faulty thinking - to reprogram my thinking - and to once again begin to add religion and spiritual beliefs back into my life without it affecting my sexuality. 

When I felt my sexuality return, and realized how much I missed feeling sexual, I made a very conscious decision that I was not going to loose it again. But at that time - the faulty thinking which still existed made me decide, I was just not going to be a good girl anymore - I would be a bad instead and enjoy sex. With therapy - I finally reconciled that I could still be religious and spiritual and enjoy sexuality within my marriage too - and that enjoying sex and embracing my God given sexuality did not make me a "bad" person. My husband and I also learned how to communicate about sex and how to express our needs and desires with each other. i can't begin to explain the difference in our marriage once I embraced my sexuality and allowed our sexual life to flourish. Night and day difference - in an incredibly good way.

Later - menopause hit in full bloom - and physically took away my new found ability to enjoy sex. My husband also started having aging issues with sex. We - both my husband and I had to work very hard to get the physical part of our bodies to work again. But that is another story!

My point in bringing it up is that we both had learned just how much healthy, frequent sex improved our relationship. We were determined nothing, including aging and menopause would make us loose that benefit! So far we have been successful.

(Again I have written a simplified version of a very complicated process)


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

mary35 said:


> I finally reconciled that I could still be religious and spiritual and enjoy sexuality within my marriage too. That enjoying sex and embracing my God given sexuality did not make me a "bad" person.


AMEN ! It actually makes you a GOOD person, because that's EXACTLY what God wants you to do. It's a gift that we're meant to enjoy to it's fullest!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

mary35 said:


> When I use the terms HD and LD in this thread - I am mostly talking about sides of a HD/LD conflict meaning that there is one spouse who wants more sex (HD) than another - and the spouse who wants less sex (LD) - is controlling the frequency - or lack of frequency which has created a conflict in the marriage.


Mary,

The LD partner in a marriage, despite being LD, may still have a general interest in sex. A common example is a man who doesn't feel terribly amorous towards his wife, but still looks at pornography or gawks at attractive women in public. Another common example is a woman who may have a celebrity crush or enjoy various forms of erotic fiction, but finds her husband boring and mundane. 

However the LD partner in a marriage may not actually have an interest in sex even in a general sense and go weeks, months or even years without a single sexual thought in their head at all. Zero, zip, nada as the saying goes. 

I think this is an important distinction _vis-à-vis _your question on this thread because in the latter scenario, things the HD partner has done or not done are less likely to be legitimate grievances and more likely to be window dressing masking the actual problem.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Mary,

If I read your post correctly, when you didn't feel sexual, you basically deprived your husband. This didn't change until you, personally, felt sexual. In other words, you decided, from start to finish, whether your husband could have a sexual life. Is that accurate?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

mary35 said:


> SA, I think it is hard for many of us to understand the other side, especially in high drive/low drive conflicts. I know I did not understand how hard it was for my husband. I didn't need sex, and I seldom got horny. Unlike you, I did not love sex. I mostly associated it with guilt and feeling bad - so I mentally turned myself off. Because of my dysfunctional mentality, sex was not bonding for me. It made me feel further apart from my husband because of the mindplay that went on in my head, instead of drawing me closer to him- like it does now.
> 
> In the same way, my husband could not understand my side. Sex was a need for him. He could not understand why I didn't want it, why having orgasms would not be something I would want to have lots of. Sex made him feel close to me so he was hurt and confused that it did not do the same for me. Like your husband, SA, my husband kept all this hurt and feelings of rejection inside. Also a nice guy, he just felt this was his lot in life, plus he thought most women were the same as me anyways, so no use complaining. Although, his feelings of rejection did often come out in passive ways. We had a very dysfunctional relationship in many ways - yet for some reason - also a functional relationship in other ways. We were both committed to the marriage, and did not consider divorce as a serious option. After years of the dysfunction, with built up resentments on both of our parts, we fell into a comfortable realistic acceptance of our sex life - he was always going to want to try to have more sex, and I was always going to not want more sex - and provide the bare minimum. In my mind the fact that we had sex now and then was my compromise. And in some ways, I think he accepted that as fact also.
> 
> It was not until I had the experience with the extremely high level of testosterone, that I truly understood what my husband felt like all those years. And the aging process has also allowed my husband a glimpse into my side of the picture - although, he will never understand the "Good girls don't" dysfunctional mindset that greatly contributed to my not wanting sex.


Until now, I had yet to see any commonality between the former LDs on this board -- other than that their spouses are extremely luck . 

But, now I see mary35, SA, and GettingIt all have much empathy for their respective HD partner's experience during the drought. Two of these three report that a strong boost in libido (medically induced or not?) enabled that empathy and understanding to exist, whereas before it had not.

So, I'm wondering if the sort of "Empathy Challenge" I propose below seems potentially useful to any you folks here:

1) LD person for a short period of time be prescribed something safe to boost T levels (assuming that is possible -- if not, forget it). Perhaps simultaneously agreeing not to MB, during the challenge period.

2) HD person similarly be prescribed something safe to decrease interest or availability for sex (assuming that is possible -- if not, also forget it.) Offhand, maybe sleep deprivation along with extra physical labor and multiple times per day MB (alone) would be enough.


Early on, back when it seemed there was a physical cause limiting her "drive", one of us discovered that some folks can experience an increase in libido by using a testosterone cream. My wife expressed a strong disinterest in that approach though, saying she didn't want facial hair. So, I didn't give it any more thought. But, I'm seriously wondering if, back then, she would have given such a short-term experiment a shot.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Years ago, when I was LD, I really wasn't, I was just tired of being berated all day but then expected to want sex that night.

That was all the positive attention I ever got back then. Why in the world would I have wanted sex after being talked down too all day?

He finally grew up and I found my HD.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

PieceOfSky said:


> Until now, I had yet to see any commonality between the former LDs on this board -- other than that their spouses are extremely luck .
> 
> But, now I see mary35, SA, and GettingIt all have much empathy for their respective HD partner's experience during the drought. Two of these three report that a strong boost in libido (medically induced or not?) enabled that empathy and understanding to exist, whereas before it had not.
> 
> ...


When did this alleged empathy appear? When the former LD spouse suddenly began wanting sex, themselves? Their original behavior was directed at avoiding what they did not want and their "new" behavior was directed at getting what they now wanted. Nothing about that process is a demonstration of real empathy. 

Knowing how awful rejection feels, given the choice between subjecting your spouse to that misery for years or dealing with a little facial hair, which course of action would you take? Why do we excuse that which should not be excused? The only people in these scenarios who have shown real empathy are the alleged HD folks who stuck around through these droughts and fluctuations, constantly giving and providing while being abused and deprived by the very people they were remaining faithful to.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Mary,
> 
> If I read your post correctly, when you didn't feel sexual, you basically deprived your husband. This didn't change until you, personally, felt sexual. In other words, you decided, from start to finish, whether your husband could have a sexual life. Is that accurate?


Yes. And now she feels terrible about it and wishes she and her husband could get those years back. She's now starting to lose that desire and is still determined to meet her husband's needs. She's also suggesting that LDs take her new found knowledge into account and try modifying their behavior.

So, what's your point?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Mary,
> 
> If I read your post correctly, when you didn't feel sexual, you basically deprived your husband. This didn't change until you, personally, felt sexual. In other words, you decided, from start to finish, whether your husband could have a sexual life. Is that accurate?


No - that is not accurate. It would be more accurate to say when I didn't feel sexual I often curtailed sex in our marriage. Yes - you are correct that I did not change until I felt sexual again. In other words (more accurate words) - I decided most of the time when and how my husband could have a sexual life WITH ME! AND (this is where I open myself up to get beat up again) he went along with my decisions and accepted what I created as his sex life - not happily (understandably so), probably feeling he had no choice (true if his sex life only included me - which he decided it would), AND without pushing for any changes in a direct and open way! This is some of his parts of the equation. 

I want to point out to help you understand the personality of my husband, that he avoided conflicts like the plague. he still does sometimes, but has gotten better at communicating his true thoughts and feelings and in speaking up for himself. He was (is) a people pleaser. He doesn't like to have people upset at him. So he often gave the impression he was going along with things or agreed with things - when the reality was that he did not! Again he has improved in this area too.

During most of our marriage, he was also quite willing to sit back and let me drive the boat on many things - even when he didn't like the results - even when I asked him to participate equally - or to take over driving the boat himself because i knew he would do a better job at it (and meant it). This included things like taking care of the family finances and disciplining the children. 

So yes - I totally controlled his sexual interaction with me and he went along with what I allowed. Our negative sexual interaction did not change, until I changed. But even now - when I want him to take over driving our sexual boat more - he still makes me drive it most of the time. Thankfully - I am now a better and more considerate driver and he enjoys the ride a heck of a lot more!!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

What's my point? My point simply was that her husband had nothing to do with her LD and he had nothing to do with her drive returning. He got what he got and he will get what he gets. Though her last paragraph describes this as a couple problem in reality, it appears to have been quite one-sided. She didn't come to some epiphany that withholding was wrong because it's just wrong, her libido magically came back and she wants to maintain it because she's finding sex personally pleasurable.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> What's my point? My point simply was that her husband had nothing to do with her LD and he had nothing to do with her drive returning. He got what he got and he will get what he gets. Though her last paragraph describes this as a couple problem in reality, it appears to have been quite one-sided. She didn't come to some epiphany that withholding was wrong because it's just wrong, her libido magically came back and she wants to maintain it because she's finding sex personally pleasurable.


It was a couple problem, because we were married!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If my wife is doing all she is supposed to be doing and I choose to punch her in the face or have an affair, that's not a couple problem. When two people both make choices that get them where they are, that's a couple problem. One person doing something to someone else against their will is an individual problem.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> What's my point? My point simply was that her husband had nothing to do with her LD and he had nothing to do with her drive returning. He got what he got and he will get what he gets. Though her last paragraph describes this as a couple problem in reality, it appears to have been quite one-sided. She didn't come to some epiphany that withholding was wrong because it's just wrong, her libido magically came back and she wants to maintain it because she's finding sex personally pleasurable.


Your bitterness is showing...careful.

He married her. There is a vow thing many people say before signing the piece of paper. Problem is, many people don't really understand what those vows mean. Better or WORSE. That's part of it. 

If he didn't like it, he could have left, he could have told her he wanted a divorce unless things changed, he could have offered a timeline for things to be compromised on, he could have offered for them to go see a sex therapist....It's not just HER fault. When you get married, you BOTH have to work to find solutions to problems even if you're not the one that started the problem.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife is doing all she is supposed to be doing and I choose to punch her in the face or have an affair, that's not a couple problem. When two people both make choices that get them where they are, that's a couple problem. One person doing something to someone else against their will is an individual problem.


And just like Mary's husband, your wife could choose to leave if you punch her in the face or have an affair. 

FYI physical abuse is not comparable to your wife not having sex with you. You can equate it to emotional abuse if you must - but punching in the face isn't even comparable.

His lack of communication with his wife is an example - he made the choice not to communicate. So, he did help them get to where they are.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

While you were in your non-sexual state, what on earth could your husband have done to change his situation, other than file for divorce? One can't make their partner keep their marriage vows and men generally take the short end of the stick in divorce court. It's like choosing to stay in a concentration camp or to commit suicide. Neither are acceptable choices. He wasn't in that situation because he like it. He had the power to make his needs known to you and I expect he did so frequently. What you did with that information was entirely up to you.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

staarz21 said:


> And just like Mary's husband, your wife could choose to leave if you punch her in the face or have an affair.
> 
> FYI physical abuse is not comparable to your wife not having sex with you. You can equate it to emotional abuse if you must - but punching in the face isn't even comparable.
> 
> His lack of communication with his wife is an example - he made the choice not to communicate. So, he did help them get to where they are.


Not exactly like Mary's husband. If my wife chooses to leave me, she still gets paid. What were the odds that Mary's husband would come out of a divorce wealthier than going into one? Not sure if they had kids or not, but what are the odds he'd end up with primary child custody? Running down to divorce court isn't the same proposition for the average husband as it is for the average wife. For most men, it basically means losing your kids and a good share of your property and income.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

mary35 said:


> So these experiences with the realm of different testosterone levels - from one end of the spectrum to the other, has made me wonder:
> 
> 1. If a person is really what has been termed a "true LD", is it possible that they could get into sex and enjoy it more often, if they could learn to relax and go with the flow, and figure out how to allow their brain (which I have learned really is my biggest sex organ) to do its work in providing some of the desire and turn on feelings that their body does not naturally provide?
> 
> ...


Questions 1, 2 & 4 are what drive me crazy. I simply can't understand how a spouse who actually loves their partner could fail to behave this way. In the case of someone with responsive desire (they enjoy sex when it happens), it's even harder to understand. 

However, it is the HD's responsibility to make their needs and their unhappiness known. This is not nearly as easy as it might seem. Suggestions, hints and wishes don't count. Sometimes it needs to take the form of "I will not stay in a sexless marriage forever" declaration. Really, if an LD spouse won't make this effort, then they don't love you (or, at least, love you in any meaningful way that actually results in you being happy). * 

As for #3, If an HD doesn't appreciate the effort put forth by an LD making an honest effort, then that HD doesn't deserve the attention.

* -All of this applies only to couples who actually love (or profess to love) each other and who's fitness has not declined so much as to make them physically repulsive.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Not exactly like Mary's husband. If my wife chooses to leave me, she still gets paid. What were the odds that Mary's husband would come out of a divorce wealthier than going into one? Not sure if they had kids or not, but what are the odds he'd end up with primary child custody? Running down to divorce court isn't the same proposition for the average husband as it is for the average wife. For most men, it basically means losing your kids and a good share of your property and income.



Then he should have made sure not to have children with her and told her early on that the lack of sex was going to be an issue. Men that are in these situations all say the same thing... 

"If I divorce her, then she will take all of my money." 

First, courts are changing on that. 

Second, if he noticed that sex dropped off the map - he should have taken precautions until things were better. For example, he could make sure no children came into the relationship. Men can take responsibility for BC too. He shouldn't have purchased a home until things were better or he decided to leave, he shouldn't invest, or could have drawn up post-nuptial agreements. 

There are always options.

Take control of your own life if you don't like what's going on, SPEAK UP and make boundaries - follow through.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Men that are in these situations all say the same thing...
> 
> "If I divorce her, then she will take all of my money."


No they don't. Men are individuals just as women are. 

If I followed what you meant by "these situations", then I would say I am in that situation and Unbelievable's is not (assuming I've interpreted his reasons for staying). 

I couldn't care less what happens to all of my money. That has never been a concern. I'm fortunate to have circumstances where money is not much a concern (I'm not rich by any means, and would face a lifestyle change were I to leave -- especially for my retirement years. But, I'm sure many men and women have worries about making ends meet, period, if they were to leave).

I have stayed for a mix of reasons, and it has been my choice among less appealing alternatives. It may have been for the best, it may have not, but no one forced me.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

staarz21 said:


> Then he should have made sure not to have children with her and told her early on that the lack of sex was going to be an issue. Men that are in these situations all say the same thing...
> 
> "If I divorce her, then she will take all of my money."
> 
> ...


I seriously doubt most LDs honestly tell their fiances before the wedding that they intend to spend the next 80 years avoiding sex. If they did, the problem would correct itself because most of them would never be married. 

There has to be trust in any relationship and that would extend to BC. I trusted my ex to take the pill. She secretly stopped taking them and deliberately got pregnant precisely because she knew I wouldn't have married her otherwise. Yes, I could have and probably should have taken 100% responsibility and control over BC, but if I can't trust a woman, why would I want a relationship with one? 

Rather than dream up ways to blame victims for their own victimization, why don't we just recommend that everybody keep their promises and those who can't keep their promises refrain from making them? Withholding is sexual unfaithfulness, every bit as real as adultery. I just don't believe anyone has the right to unilaterally decide whether another human being can be a sexual person or not. I don't expect all married people to put out every day but cutting their alleged partner off for months at a time is just plain abusive and cruel.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Absolutely Adorable Kitten Photos | Too Cute | Animal Planet

For those who think I'm a little bitter, here are some kitten photos.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> No they don't. Men are individuals just as women are.
> 
> If I followed what you meant by "these situations", then I would say I am in that situation and Unbelievable's is not (assuming I've interpreted his reasons for staying).
> 
> ...


I should edit that. I don't mean ALL. This forum is so particular sometimes. I mean many of the men here on this forum in this situation. I've seen it mentioned NUMEROUS times that money is a major concern. Unbelievable isn't the first poster to mention funds as a reason for staying. 

That's only a very small portion of what I wrote those and clearly if you're not worried about money - then I wasn't talking about you. I am sorry that my post made it sound like I was including those few that do not care about money. 

I am not LD, but I have sympathy and try to understand. I have sympathy and try to understand the hurt HDs as well. However, threads like this and several others similar to this make it very difficult to feel sorry for some of the HDs. They are not trying to understand at all and instead are trying to say hurtful things and lashing out. It's not helpful and the reason the LDs start the threads are to offer insight. None of which the HDs are going to accept or understand. Especially, when nitpicking comes into play. 

I am going to take a break from TAM for a while. I see way too much hurt on these forums and that hurt is being spread around as anger and hatefulness. 

Mary, Good luck to you and your H. I hope you two can continue to work together to help your marriage stay strong.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> When did this alleged empathy appear? When the former LD spouse suddenly began wanting sex, themselves?


Yes. That is my understanding.

I don't see that as a bad thing that spoils it's potential usefulness.

I'll grant you that the apparent empathy could in fact be something much less -- depending on the person. I have considered giving my wife a chance to experience rejection (of various sorts) so that I could make a point about what it feels like -- but have not done so because I suspect if she is capable of feeling any empathy at all for my situation, she is likely to feel overwhelmed by guilt and shame, and that always backfires with her. So, why risk it.




> Their original behavior was directed at avoiding what they did not want and their "new" behavior was directed at getting what they now wanted. Nothing about that process is a demonstration of real empathy.


If you are speaking of form LD's that I have mentioned, I'll say this: Having read SimplyAmorous and GettingIt's posts over the past couple of years, and from what I've just read from mary35, they seem sincere and truthful. They seem to spend quite a bit of time introspecting, they spend time thinking of others' situations and trying to help folks here, regardless of which side of the LD/HD divide a poster comes here from... 

In short, I believe their empathy is real and see no reason to doubt what they report. Further, if my memory is correct and two or three of them report having had moments where they suddenly understood how rejected their HD spouse had been feeling, then it is worth trying to understand the significance of that -- whatever it is or is not.



> Knowing how awful rejection feels, given the choice between subjecting your spouse to that misery for years or dealing with a little facial hair, which course of action would you take?


What I mean by empathy is "Knowing how awful rejection feels" and that one is "sujecting [one's] spouse to that misery". My wife, best I can tell, has had brief moments of that -- very brief, quickly followed by an almost-childlike deflection along the lines "You are just saying that to make me feel bad!", in front of the MC, followed up not much later by quitting MC "because I don't want to have to hear what I've done wrong."

My guess is many couples could get a lot of mileage from taking a walk in the other's shoes. Some would experience true empathy, and take it to heart. Others, perhaps like my wife, perhaps like yours, would not.




> Why do we excuse that which should not be excused? The only people in these scenarios who have shown real empathy are the alleged HD folks who stuck around through these droughts and fluctuations, constantly giving and providing while being abused and deprived by the very people they were remaining faithful to.


There is no one keeping score. Excusing anyone (or not) is not on my agenda. I don't see it relevant to this thread.

From what I've read of your situation, Unbelievable, you do have empathy for your wife. I'm certain I have it for mine -- perhaps, to a pathological/co-dependent/caretaker degree that has done myself, my kids, and my wife a disservice at times. If there had been a way for my wife and I to walk a mile in each others shoes way back when, I would have gladly given years of my life for us to have had that experience. No guarantees -- but, maybe it would have made a difference.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Your bitterness is showing...careful.
> 
> He married her. There is a vow thing many people say before signing the piece of paper. Problem is, many people don't really understand what those vows mean. Better or WORSE. That's part of it.
> 
> If he didn't like it, he could have left, he could have told her he wanted a divorce unless things changed, he could have offered a timeline for things to be compromised on, he could have offered for them to go see a sex therapist....It's not just HER fault. When you get married, you BOTH have to work to find solutions to problems even if you're not the one that started the problem.


I thought that once you showed up in a suit, you were guaranteed a life of sex on demand in exchange for your paycheck. :scratchhead:


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> I should edit that. I don't mean ALL. This forum is so particular sometimes. I mean many of the men here on this forum in this situation. I've seen it mentioned NUMEROUS times that money is a major concern. Unbelievable isn't the first poster to mention funds as a reason for staying.
> 
> That's only a very small portion of what I wrote those and clearly if you're not worried about money - then I wasn't talking about you. I am sorry that my post made it sound like I was including those few that do not care about money.
> 
> ...




I'm sorry you feel I was nitpicking. I take you at your word that you misspoke and didn't really mean "all".



You are right, these things are hard to talk about. In my experience, it helps to avoid speaking about men in general, or women in general, or LDs in general, or a HDs in general because we are all strangers here, and because, unfortunately, there are people in this world who intentionally paint with a very broad brush. I don't know anyone who wants to be included with those who think and act differently, simply they share the same sec, or self-identify with one label or another.





Still, I would say I've noticed more men unconcerned about money and more about other things (time with kids, hurting kids, in particular). But perhaps I don't notice the ones concerned about money, because it doesn't resonate in my particular situation. (Money is, in many cases, a significant concern. I'm just lucky it is not in mine.). I'd also say it is up to them to weigh and balance all the issues facing them, not me.



If you think I am spreading hate, please pm me with examples. Otherwise, I will just think we have muscommunicated and move on. (It happens. Especially when communicating with me involved. )


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife is doing all she is supposed to be doing and I choose to punch her in the face or have an affair, that's not a couple problem. When two people both make choices that get them where they are, that's a couple problem. One person doing something to someone else against their will is an individual problem.


I get what you are saying. I am not going to quibble with you, besides Staarz21 already expressed my thoughts very well. 

Did I cause this situation - absolutely. Was it in my control - Yes! Did hubby have any control over me - No! Nor did I have control over him. I had control over my body and exercised control over it! He had control over his body!

Did my husband get a sucky deal by marrying me and staying married to me? In the sex department - Absolutely - 100% sucky! However if you think I was happy with the way things were - and that everything was hunky dory for me - you would be DEAD WRONG!!! I was not happy with the way things were either and I did not enjoy the conflicts or the feelings I had! 

What would you guys like me to say? What would I have to write to make you feel like I get what I did to my husband? That I was the evil one and that I purposely victimized him and enjoyed seeing him suffer? Would that satisfy you?? :scratchhead:


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

staarz21 said:


> Problem is, many people don't really understand what those vows mean. Better or WORSE. That's part of it.


If you're saying what I think you're saying, I would point out that this is a break in the semantic flow of the phrase, "..for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for better or worse.." 

The phrase addresses circumstances external to the marriage covenant. Economic adversity, being diagnosed with cancer, having our house burn down, etc., are the sort of things that we only exert marginal (If any) control over and therefore aren't grounds for ending a marriage.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

mary35 said:


> I get what you are saying. I am not going to quibble with you, besides Staarz21 already expressed my thoughts very well.
> 
> Did I cause this situation - absolutely. Was it in my control - Yes! Did hubby have any control over me - No! Nor did I have control over him. I had control over my body and exercised control over it! He had control over his body!
> 
> ...


Mary, you are being used as an emotional punching bag by someone here so please stop responding to him. He is violating the purpose of this thread, which is to give ld's a safe place to offer their point of view regarding their spouse's contributions. There will always be some who prefer their victim chair and don't want to hear it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Un,
I'm going to read Mary's initial post - and respond to it. 

It will answer your question.





unbelievable said:


> While you were in your non-sexual state, what on earth could your husband have done to change his situation, other than file for divorce? One can't make their partner keep their marriage vows and men generally take the short end of the stick in divorce court. It's like choosing to stay in a concentration camp or to commit suicide. Neither are acceptable choices. He wasn't in that situation because he like it. He had the power to make his needs known to you and I expect he did so frequently. What you did with that information was entirely up to you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All,
I'm going to respond to Mary's initial post - because I believe that post contains great content. 

HD folks,
My response is intended to be helpful. 
Don't attack the OP for my comments. 

My responses are numbered to match her comments. 

1. Almost all/all of the HD folks on here have tried speaking to their spouses. Mary's didn't. Feel free to be angry at your HD spouse for not listening to you. Don't be angry at Mary because her H chose not to discuss this. 

2. If (1) reflected a lack of constructive dialog, (2) represented a clear, consistent and desire suppressing message. It's the compounding of two traits each of which is a turn off. Selfishness and neediness. And YES it's selfish to initiate when your spouse is sick. Or clearly exhausted. Or has aready said no a couple times. 

3. Hard to understand why someone who's new to an activity wouldn't try to learn how to get good at it. 

Note: One thing I do notice is that many HD posters don't take feedback very well. If your spouse believes you are defensive, they might not be honest about good / bad you are in bed. 

4. That's a desire suppressing message to send. 

5. Meh - this sounds like a 'second order effect'. It's important, but was more icing on the cake. 




mary35 said:


> I have read thread upon thread here and on other forums about the problems with LD spouses and how they hurt their spouses through sexual rejection.
> 
> For readability - I removed most of Mary's excellent and balanced summary including her full ownership of her part of their dynamic.
> 
> ...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mary35 said:


> Did my husband get a sucky deal by marrying me and staying married to me? In the sex department - Absolutely - 100% sucky! * However if you think I was happy with the way things were - and that everything was hunky dory for me - you would be DEAD WRONG!!! I was not happy with the way things were either and I did not enjoy the conflicts or the feelings I had! *


Mary, this is a huge misconception many HD people have. They really believe their LD spouse is all happy la la la without a care in the world about their spouse's HD. 

It is very difficult to get through to some HD people who believe the LD is perfectly content. They just can see their own pain, and cannot fathom that the LD often feels just as much pain and anguish at the situation, on top of the physical discomfort and even pain that can come with having duty sex.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Just suggesting changing to "some men"/.

My wife and I each have independent sources of wealth. If we divorced, court would not order me to pay anything, and we would both still be very comfortable financially. Money doesn't enter into my decision making on this.



staarz21 said:


> snip
> Men that are in these situations all say the same thing...
> 
> "If I divorce her, then she will take all of my money."
> snip


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife is doing all she is supposed to be doing and I choose to punch her in the face or have an affair, that's not a couple problem. When two people both make choices that get them where they are, that's a couple problem. *One person doing something to someone else against their will is an individual problem.*


You've just explained the point you are arguing against.

The HD person coercing the LD person to have sex when they don't want to is doing something to them against their will.

Because sex should be something both partners enthusiastically consent to doing, it's natural for the frequency of it to be driven by the LDer partner's libido. Otherwise the HDer person should be ashamed of themselves.

HDers always insists on thinking that the LDer is deliberately depriving them or withholding something that's in their power to give.

Sex should go at the rate of the least common denominator.

If one partner is a placid little Volkswagen Beetle, and the other is a powerful Ford Mustang, they're not going to have a great time if the Mustang races off ahead, leaving the Beetle in the dust, or if the Mustang bumps up against the Bug from behind and pushes it along. Their partnership will only work if they go side by side at the pace of the Beetle.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> You've just explained the point you are arguing against.
> 
> The HD person coercing the LD person to have sex when they don't want to is doing something to them against their will.
> 
> ...


I will disagree. The decision to have sex with someone was made at the wedding. That's the deal we all made and it didn't come with the caveat "if I feel like it". 

The least common denominator for a great many couples is absolutely no sex and who, among us, signed up for that? 

I suppose I'm having trouble understanding their plight because I haven't spent 5 minutes of my life in a situation where I could simply refuse to do something because I didn't feel like it. I am not HD. I'm just a normally functioning guy. A couple times a week would be great. Once a week would be great. Every six to eight months isn't LD. It's No D.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I will disagree. The decision to have sex with someone was made at the wedding. That's the deal we all made and it didn't come with the caveat "if I feel like it".
> 
> The least common denominator for a great many couples is absolutely no sex and who, among us, signed up for that?
> 
> I suppose I'm having trouble understanding their plight because I haven't spent 5 minutes of my life in a situation where I could simply refuse to do something because I didn't feel like it. I am not HD. I'm just a normally functioning guy. A couple times a week would be great. Once a week would be great. Every six to eight months isn't LD. It's No D.


For most - these long term drive conflicts are way more complicated than one spouse refusing to have sex over and over "simply" because they don't feel like it!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I will disagree. The decision to have sex with someone was made at the wedding. That's the deal we all made and it didn't come with the caveat "if I feel like it".
> 
> The least common denominator for a great many couples is absolutely no sex and who, among us, signed up for that?
> 
> I suppose I'm having trouble understanding their plight because I haven't spent 5 minutes of my life in a situation where I could simply refuse to do something because I didn't feel like it. I am not HD. I'm just a normally functioning guy. A couple times a week would be great. Once a week would be great. Every six to eight months isn't LD. It's No D.


Unbelievable, if you are describing your situation, I really feel for you. I don't know your story and don't have time to research your posts tonight to figure it out. I am assuming your wife is the lower drive spouse and that you both have been in as sexual conflict for a long time. 

If this is correct, do you feel your wife is the way she is because of pure selfishness? 
Do you feel her lack of desire and more importantly, her lack of action is 100% her problem and you have not played and do not play any part at all in any way in the creation of the sexual conflict?How about for living in a horrible situation for so long? 
Are you a victim? 
Are you her victim?
Looking back - is there anything you would have done differently when you started to realize there was a real conflict between what you wanted, needed, and desired and what she was giving you in your marital sexual arena?

If you don't want to answer these questions, I understand! Trust me, I know how hard it is to put your personal life out there for others to dissect and critique. But I would like to have a respectful discussion with you, if you are willing too!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

mary35,<br />
<br />
I'm glad you are here, and, not that it matters, you rank pretty high in my book because you and your husband managed somehow to close the gap. It hasn't happened in my marriage, though effort has been made. No way for me to know, and not really any of my business, but if I had to guess, your husband cherishes the fact you two ultimately found your way back together. I suspect if somehow my wife and I managed to do that, I would be elated just to have her back -- even now, with as much damage as we have done to our relationship.<br />
<br />
That you are here to share what you can, and have been willing to be vulnerable and open, is a gift I greatly appreciate. I'm sure I'm not the only HD or ND or husband here who feels that way.<br />
<font size="1"><i>Posted via Mobile Device</i></font>


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

PieceOfSky said:


> mary35,<br />
> <br />
> I'm glad you are here, and, not that it matters, you rank pretty high in my book because you and your husband managed somehow to close the gap. It hasn't happened in my marriage, though effort has been made. No way for me to know, and not really any of my business, but if I had to guess, your husband cherishes the fact you two ultimately found your way back together. I suspect if somehow my wife and I managed to do that, I would be elated just to have her back -- even now, with as much damage as we have done to our relationship.<br />
> <br />
> ...


Thanks PieceofSky! That means a lot to me! Don't give up hope that things can change for you. If there is still love between you and your spouse, then there is still a chance. And if there is not, I hope you find someone else who you can build a happy and loving life with.

And, yes, I do believe my husband has been very happy that I finally changed for the better as far as sex is concerned. The one thing I know for certain, he has been extremely forgiving of my many mistakes, flaws, and dysfunctions. I feel blessed to be married to him, and even more blessed that he stuck it out with me, even when he was sure I would never change. 

I hope you will believe me that it truly saddens me that there are so many spouses (both LDs and HDs) hurting from all kinds of sexual conflicts, especially knowing that many of them may not ever be able to resolve them and get a chance to experience the amazing kind of relationship they are missing out on. 

If I can help just one couple in some way by sharing my story and some things I have learned, then being taken to task by strangers for the embarrassing and shameful mistakes I made in my life will be well worth it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Un,

The literal truth is different though. Because the vow is to love each other. So a sincere question that an LD spouse might ask is this.

If you truly love me, why do you WANT me to do something that I clearly dislike. 





unbelievable said:


> I will disagree. The decision to have sex with someone was made at the wedding. That's the deal we all made and it didn't come with the caveat "if I feel like it".
> 
> The least common denominator for a great many couples is absolutely no sex and who, among us, signed up for that?
> 
> I suppose I'm having trouble understanding their plight because I haven't spent 5 minutes of my life in a situation where I could simply refuse to do something because I didn't feel like it. I am not HD. I'm just a normally functioning guy. A couple times a week would be great. Once a week would be great. Every six to eight months isn't LD. It's No D.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

norajane said:


> It is very difficult to get through to some HD people who believe the LD is perfectly content.



I'm sure they are not... I got this, at the end... so, I'm not pestering my wife for sex twice a month. I act happy, I don't mention sex ever, I left it to her to bring up sex when she feels "we should have some sex"... all very well... guess what? It's been two months now... we don't need that much sex, obviously.... and I'm sure it will get worse... since I stop pestering, it was twice a month at first, then it became once a month and now it's once every two months - actually, I don't know that, because we've past that and no sex... what will it be next? Six months?

I do understand that thinking about sex is difficult when you have no drive, no desire whatsoever. But we are married to each other. Honesty and frankness would go a long way with me. I've accepted it, but you can't expect the HD person to be happy and not to get out of the door when time comes.

When the gap is so big, there's only one option: divorce. And I mean it. I wish I left 10 years ago...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

PieceOfSky said:


> But, now I see mary35, *SA*, and GettingIt all have much empathy for their respective HD partner's experience during *the drought.* Two of these three report that a strong boost in libido (medically induced or not?) enabled that empathy and understanding to exist, whereas before it had not.


 I fit into this category because I have REGRETS, a sexual awakening to the likes of what YOUNG HORNY MEN DEAL WITH DAILY...hourly even! 

You mention drought.. he would call those the DRY Years...true.. but still I always loved sex, feeling it was the greatest pleasure /utopia one could experience in life, we always basked in the after glow also.

I never had any resentment towards my husband ...

Sadly..I believe it would have been terribly EASY for me to "GET IT" had He tried to teach me a lesson and outright REJECTED ME A FEW TIMES ....he's never done this.. he was at my beck and call.. I was very spoiled. 

He also never complained ...never badgered ...never pushed.. always affectionate.. Does it make sense ? 
I recall 1 time he TRIED to talk to me.. and he NEVER used the word







... *[email protected]#$* he spoke of wanting to hold me more at night....I am a very light sleeper, can be fidgety ! (need some space in bed)...knowing how he always needed more sleep over me.. all this blew over my head... 

So when I learned 6 yrs ago feeling like a sex craved nympho.....asking many questions -starting with masturbation (always too taboo to go there!)... asking how he handled sex once a week, sometimes twice ..(darn it should have been 5 + times back then!).... had I been him, I would have raised the roof off the house!!.....I was trying to understand him through my NEWLY awakened EYES.... 

Not surprising at the time.. but still.. to learn he was struggling with some silent resentment, he tried to STUFF HIS FEELINGS all those yrs...that he wasn't as Happy as I was... it was a BLOW to me! 

As I kept digging to understand how I HURT him.. he admitted *he wanted me to FEEL as he was feeling*.. I do recall reaching for him on occasion...and he didn't seem too interested (HE WANTED TO REJECT ME but told me he couldn't do it)... I would persist with "Come on baby, I neeeed you".... since he always gave in -and rather easily, we still felt enraptured with each other..... I never thought a thing of it ! 

Though in the back of my mind...some of this might explain why I masturbated in the middle of the night (half the time I woke him up, half the time I didn't) thinking he'd prefer his sleep ..(WRONG!).... I wasted those nights on myself.. (REGRET!)

*He never rocked the boat* ...as he explained all the men he knew seemed to have it worse .. he said to me the other day he didn't want to come off "ignorant".... he's also said he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex"...because it never was for him ...

Was I really a Low drive partner.. just lower drive ... not in touch with my sexuality as much as I should have been , once I got a high testosterone dousing ....other priorities on the brain given seasons in our lives...Unfortunately...

His passive nature was no friend to us in this regard.... kinda like Mary's husband.. Beings I'm the type who would cause a *ruckus* if I wasn't satisfied... for all I assumed.. wouldn't HE also ??? ... after reading more about the ISFJ's temperament ... I come to realize how subtle these types are.. grand pleasers, can not stand to be a burden...when they want something... they are so subtle about it.. that if their partner is not clued in.. we'll miss it !! AND I DID [email protected]#

I've always been one to ask how he feels about things..love the give & take... always felt our communication was superb.. ONLY IN THIS 1 area we missed it...It was always so heavenly/ fulfilling when we did have sex...that we never talked about it !! These are blunders... I just think how easily I could have done so much more. I have cried many tears over this.. 

When I hear other women COMPLAIN their husbands whined, pushed for more sex....I WISHED MY HUSBAND DID THAT damn it!......at least I would have known he was hurting....told me what for.. I was never afraid of some conflict...I caused it when I was  [email protected]#.... 

I remember him being less patient with the kids.. but never me. (I have repeated our story at nauseum so excuse it once again).... 

I have been harder on myself over these things.. I still sometimes tear up over it -just thinking about it... my H always reminds me we've always had a Good life..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

mary35 said:


> I get what you are saying. I am not going to quibble with you, besides Staarz21 already expressed my thoughts very well.
> 
> Did I cause this situation - absolutely. Was it in my control - Yes! Did hubby have any control over me - No! Nor did I have control over him. I had control over my body and exercised control over it! He had control over his body!
> 
> ...


I think what's difficult for *Unbelievable* is .. he's a Christian , he made a VOW.. and even sexlessness, to him, is not a reason for leaving a wife.. .his posts always reflect this.. he chooses vows over happiness even if it causes severe misery... 

I really don't understand anyone who can DO THIS.. I'm not anything close to being this sacrificial if my needs aren't met.. I also can sympathize with one this lonely & miserable falling into temptation leading to stepping out on a spouse.. (just keeping it honest here)..

When others think of Low Drivers, what often comes to mind is.. headaches..." I'm too tired"...this excuse and another.. 

I never once had a headache.. I was rarely if ever too tired either...(he always called me the energizer bunny..







- didn't matter how many kids we had)....though we did have our timing off.. he was more in the mood in the am.. after I stayed up half the night...another blunder... 

*These were my husbands's rejections*...

*1*. Fearing if we had too much sex, his sperm count would be diminished (during yrs of infertility).... I'd tell him .."You need to save your sperm -so our chances are better"...(He wanted more kids also - not just catering to me here)...

*2*. Once the babies started coming, I had them in bed with us..









*3.* He secretly hated my books... they were also in bed with us.. 

When he took the time to arouse me/ going for it ... he always GOT ME though... Another thing...he was always too quiet...had he flirted more with me, teasing me type thing... this also would have helped...so I feel. 

Looking back.. so many opportunities I would not understand from his end.. like near every night he'd scratch my back, fingers through my hair watching a movie, I'd ask him on occasion..."Do you want me to scratch your back?".. he'd always say "NO".. but never once did he say something like ...."No, but you can take care of this"  & lead my hand to down below... I mean really... WHY??? 

Yeah I SHOULD have known.. but he could have UPPED making it known too.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think what's difficult for *Unbelievable* is .. he's a Christian , he made a VOW.. and even sexlessness, to him, is not a reason for leaving a wife.. .his posts always reflect this.. he chooses vows over happiness even if it causes severe misery...


Huh. I must be mistaking un with someone else. I thought his reason was the fear of getting reamed financially. So if the former is true, and he citing the latter, then I call sanctimonious BS.

Loads of people choose what of their vows to consider important. The vow forsaking all others does not mean anything about what happens within the relationship. I also remember love, cherish and honor in my Catholic vows. Those are often forgotten. 

Give how bitter and cranky he is, it would be fairly interesting to get Mrs Un's take on things.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> So a sincere question that an LD spouse might ask is....


Mem,

The sincerity of that question would come at the expense of a person's innate sense of right and wrong.

If our spouse took a solemn vow to only ever eat food that we personally provided, then we would have an ethical obligation to feed them.

Turning our backs on them and allowing them to starve after having extracted that promise would be every bit as serious an ethical breach as it would be for them to eat from another table after having promised not to. 

This isn't rocket science; it's Ethics 101, Week 1.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oco,

Let's take our thread jack either to a new thread or PM. Suffice to say that the cooking analogy isn't very good because:
- lack of sex doesn't kill you, just feels like it's killing you
- cooking is an 'arms length transaction' it doesn't require any intimacy



QUOTE=ocotillo;12382921]Mem,

The sincerity of that question would come at the expense of a person's innate sense of right and wrong.

If our spouse took a solemn vow to only ever eat food that we personally provided, then we would have an ethical obligation to feed them.

Turning our backs on them and allowing them to starve after having extracted that promise would be every bit as serious an ethical breach as it would be for them to eat from another table after having promised not to. 

This isn't rocket science; it's Ethics 101, Week 1.[/QUOTE]


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
The marriage contract is very short and doesn't contain a lot of fine print. The lets it mean very different things to different people. 

Some people honestly believe that regular sex (health permitting) is part of the marriage vows. Others believe that it is not. There may be no intention to deceive, deprive or anything else, it is just something that was never discussed.

The problem is that sex is (in most relationships) exclusive, and for some people extremely important to their happiness.

Divorce is often not a good option. People may be in love, and greatly enjoy their time together even if the sex is bad or non-existent.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Oco,
> Let's take our thread jack either to a new thread or PM. Suffice to say that the cooking analogy isn't very good because:
> - lack of sex doesn't kill you, just feels like it's killing you
> - cooking is an 'arms length transaction' it doesn't require any intimacy


Mem,

In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I think it's important not to insult LD people, even indirectly. 

Anyone who does not understand that the Judeo Christian marriage tradition is inherently a sexual arrangement inasmuch as sexual exclusivity is a core component of the commitment is not functioning at the level of an adult. 

Therefore it's important not to simply assume this of LD people. The LD people here on TAM are an intelligent bunch and they certainly understand the conflict here. All of them are quick to point out that sexlessness is not simply a selfish justification they've made. As Mary said, there are a host of other factors that go into it. 

I'm sorry you took my illustration as an analogy, because in truth, there was no claim of analogous relationship. It was simply one of several ways the ethical principle could have been illustrated.

Suffice it to say that our obligations towards our spouse extend far beyond simply keeping them alive.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have been harder on myself over these things.. I still sometimes tear up over it -just thinking about it... my H always reminds me we've always had a Good life..


Thanks for sharing this. Your H is a lucky man.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Mem,
> 
> In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I think it's important not to insult LD people, even indirectly.
> 
> ...


There's a whole-lot of negative judgement in here that aids no discussion.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> You know what strikes me? A lot of the sexless men in this thread, or any other I have seen, will answer the issues that are brought up. It is a simple matter. I showed up on the wedding day. You owe me sex. It is pathetic.


It is the short form of a valid argument, is it not?

Assuming that I've been a reasonable spouse and met my obligations to love, honor, and cherish, is sex not a reasonable expectation? Particularly in light of the exclusivity of sexual access implied by a monogamous marriage?

I don't hear a lot of calls for sex anytime, anywhere, under any circumstances at my whim. But expectations of a reasonable sex life in an otherwise reasonable marriage seem entirely appropriate. 

If the other has dropped the ball on the other marital expectations, then that's a different problem.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> There's a whole-lot of negative judgement in here that aids no discussion.


Nobody, to my knowledge has actually done what I described above. Nobody to my knowledge has actually said to their husband or wife, "I don't want to and if you really love me you'd respect that and quit asking." Nobody to my knowledge has abused the concept of love like this.

I'm simply pointing out that it's possible to inadvertently insult an LD person who understands that its' not simply a matter of not wanting to by assuming this of them, so I'm struggling to see who has been judged and how. 

If it helps at all, I've been the LD person in the relationship for the last five years now so am not speaking from the perspective of an angry HD.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> *Huh. I must be mistaking un with someone else. I thought his reason was the fear of getting reamed financially. So if the former is true, and he citing the latter, then I call sanctimonious BS*.


 Maybe you are on to something NobodyS....I've read so many of his posts over the years, very often he speaks of the commitment in sickness & in health.. it's always stuck out to me.. I guess more than the financial ramifications.. what is the TRUE motivations.. I could see how BOTH would make someone very very bitter. 

I've often looked at him as near saintly for putting up with what he does.. I've cried reading his posts ... but at the same time...asking WHY WHY WHY does he [email protected]#$...

So maybe it really does come down to $$. (probably the #1 reason people cheat even)....I give him credit for not going there.. but the bitterness of living such a life day in & day out can eat someone alive.. It's an all around devastating situation.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Nobody, to my knowledge has actually done what I described above. Nobody to my knowledge has actually said to their husband or wife, "I don't want to and if you really love me you'd respect that and quit asking." Nobody to my knowledge has abused the concept of love like this.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out that it's possible to inadvertently insult an LD person who understands that its' not simply a matter of not wanting to by assuming this of them, so I'm struggling to see who has been judged and how.
> 
> If it helps at all, I've been the LD person in the relationship for the last five years now so am not speaking from the perspective of an angry HD.


Perhaps its the turn of a phrase.....
Clearly this is not a conversation to which I belong.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SomebodySpecial,

Ideally folks have a good sense of what they are signing up for when they get married. 

By the time M2 and I got married we had a pretty good understanding of each other. 

The way things work now is based on trust, respect and communication. 

My ideal is every other day. I neither conceal that nor harp on it. M2's ideal is generally much lower - though she has the odd burst of desire here and there. 

My comments on this are clear, concise and consistent:
- In a perfect world every other day
- I'm happy with twice a week 
- That (2/week) is a preference NOT a quota 
- I do expect both of us to treat this (sexual) part of our marriage as a priority - that includes transparent and constructive communication
- That includes a little bit of awkward discussion of my one active phobia: that the experience will gradually become BAD for M2 






NobodySpecial said:


> Huh. I must be mistaking un with someone else. I thought his reason was the fear of getting reamed financially. So if the former is true, and he citing the latter, then I call sanctimonious BS.
> 
> Loads of people choose what of their vows to consider important. The vow forsaking all others does not mean anything about what happens within the relationship. I also remember love, cherish and honor in my Catholic vows. Those are often forgotten.
> 
> Give how bitter and cranky he is, it would be fairly interesting to get Mrs Un's take on things.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> 2. If (1) reflected a lack of constructive dialog, (2) represented a clear, consistent and desire suppressing message. It's the compounding of two traits each of which is a turn off. Selfishness and neediness. And YES it's selfish to initiate when your spouse is sick. Or clearly exhausted. Or has aready said no a couple times.


But when does the "I'm feeling sick", "I'm tired", etc. reasons become an excuse? My husband is "tired" basically every single day, so should we only ever have sex on his timeline? He gets more sleep than I do, but is too tired to do much. Do I only make sure his needs are met and mine get ignored? I've done what I can to be a good wife, but don't get much of what I'm looking for in return. I don't think it's selfish to want to make love to my husband. A marriage is about give and take, so both people need to be trying to meet the other person's needs.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Holdingontoit said:


> *Thanks for sharing this. Your H is a lucky man.*


 I like your name Holding on!.. 
I am forever "awakened"...and sometimes I think too passionate about the subject.. 

I think our story illustrates what *could happen* if a woman marries a laid back /on the passive side "pleaser"... I hate to refer to him as "*a nice guy"* in the negative - due to how much wonderfulness was always there..

He's the type that would stay for the kids even if he wasn't happy, he'd make the best of it.... I also have thought.. "My gawd, it's good he married ME!! .. cause if he doesn't feel desire from a woman.. he wouldn't touch her.. very sensitive here, I don't think it's the norm.. he would have ended up an empty shell with a true low driving woman who never cared, didn't need it... 

What a waste it would have been...

Our temperaments are at opposite ends..(pretty typical for many couples)... I am the more aggressive partner between us.. sex is no different.. he's pretty happy to be lusted after like that... you won't find him complaining.. even when I was pushing it. ... He'd just make Fun of me...and I like that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> It is the short form of a valid argument, is it not?
> 
> Assuming that I've been a reasonable spouse and met my obligations to love, honor, and cherish, is sex not a reasonable expectation? Particularly in light of the exclusivity of sexual access implied by a monogamous marriage?
> 
> ...


In whose eyes and under whose expectations, huh? Clearly not the people like Marie on this thread. Still that is what she is getting. You suck. You should have done this. You should have done that. Not one iota of self questioning ... gee I wonder if MY wife ever felt like that or something similar. I wonder what SHE thinks or feels about it? I wonder what things she does not feel comfortable speaking honestly with me.

ANd really, how well is forming these arguments working for anyone anyway?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> SomebodySpecial,
> 
> Ideally folks have a good sense of what they are signing up for when they get married.


HAAAAA! I think that might be people's first mistake.




> By the time M2 and I got married we had a pretty good understanding of each other.
> 
> The way things work now is based on trust, respect and communication.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If your partner has the energy to engage in leisure activities which they enjoy - but is too tired for sex - than the issue is avoidance not fatigue. 

It's generally not helpful to ask a question you already know the answer to. 

Why ask: do you like having sex with me? If their behavior makes it obvious they don't. 

Better to say: 
- It's kind of obvious you don't much like having sex with me. 
- I don't much like the idea of pressing you to do something you dislike 

At one time you DID like it. Or sure seemed to. Would you be willing to talk about what's changed sometime in the next few days? 

When we talk - I do want to know this: 
- Is it mainly a case of you not feeling desire at the start - but it feels good once we get going?
- Or are you wanting to hurry up and get it over with from start to finish? 







Anonymous07 said:


> But when does the "I'm feeling sick", "I'm tired", etc. reasons become an excuse? My husband is "tired" basically every single day, so should we only ever have sex on his timeline? He gets more sleep than I do, but is too tired to do much. Do I only make sure his needs are met and mine get ignored? I've done what I can to be a good wife, but don't get much of what I'm looking for in return. I don't think it's selfish to want to make love to my husband. A marriage is about give and take, so both people need to be trying to meet the other person's needs.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> In whose eyes and under whose expectations, huh? Clearly not the people like Marie on this thread. Still that is what she is getting. You suck. You should have done this. You should have done that. Not one iota of self questioning ... gee I wonder if MY wife ever felt like that or something similar. I wonder what SHE thinks or feels about it? I wonder what things she does not feel comfortable speaking honestly with me.
> 
> ANd really, how well is forming these arguments working for anyone anyway?


You are assuming most HD people on here have not tried different ways of getting through to their spouse or looked at themselves to see what they can change. I've already done that. I've done what I can to be a good wife, but our sex life still isn't that great. Then what? 



MEM11363 said:


> If your partner has the energy to engage in leisure activities which they enjoy - but is too tired for sex - than the issue is avoidance not fatigue.
> 
> That is sometimes hard to tell. There are times he is tired and just hangs out watching tv or times he is "tired", but will do things around the house and run around with our son. Although, even when I'm truly tired, I can still be up for it. The other night I got maybe 4 hours of sleep(our son was sick/teething), but would happily go for sex.
> 
> ...


The questions may help if you can get an honest answer. My husband won't say anything he knows might hurt me, so the 2 questions would probably be avoided. He claims to be HD and highly desires me, but his actions are different. I think he wants to feel manly, so he will never say anything that can make him look otherwise. He wouldn't tell me if he wanted to hurry up and get it over with because he knows it would upset me, so he wouldn't tell me if that were the truth.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SomebodyS,
I understand why a 'quota' feels rigid. 

I also believe that a healthy marriage is based on a blend of solid mechanics and a loving, playful spirit. 

As the LD - M2 is sexually the more powerful spouse. That's just the fact. As the sole breadwinner for most of the marriage I was the financially more powerful spouse. 

And yet if you watched us interact it would seem that the actual dynamic was the opposite of reality. M2 had a disproportionate influence over our finances and and I have and had a disproportionate influence over our sex life. 

In both cases the spirit of the marriage was almost always more important than the underlying mechanics. 





NobodySpecial said:


> HAAAAA! I think that might be people's first mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> You are assuming most HD people on here have not tried* different ways* of_ getting through to their spouse_ or looked at themselves to see what they can change. I've already done that. I've done what I can to be a good wife, but our sex life still isn't that great. Then what?


I don't assume that that they have tried different things, usually in the form of talking about what THEY need. Ineffective as we've seen. Because they are trying to GET THROUGH TO their spouse, not seek understanding WITH their spouse. Their backs are up in full defensive posture, and it is easier and more self satisfying to remain a victim. I don't place you in this category. Your attitude seems different, though you are still more bent on talking at him than understanding where HE is at.

Those of us who have been here, done that and _and have it work_ are ignored or worse lambasted. Because what we are talking about is different than just continuing the litany of talk and re-talk.



> The questions may help if you can get an honest answer.


That is why the questions don't help. Emotional barriers are not open to simple Q&A. We are all a bag of experience, some good, some pretty frickin awful. Gee honey why do you feel that way? How do you answer 20 or 30 years worth of **** when asked that. Why don't you want me? Well now. What on earth do you answer to THAT...



> My husband won't say anything he knows might hurt me, so the 2 questions would probably be avoided. He claims to be HD and highly desires me, but his actions are different.


Do they? Or do they give you answers you cannot or will not accept? He is not safe, for whatever reason, being honest with you. And/or maybe he IS HD and there is something else going on that is not about sex like is so often the case when the shoe is on the male foot.

People _like_ thinking these things are issue of drive because, frankly, it is easier than unraveling a mess of resentment, disappointment, fear, trauma or whatever is really going on.



> I think he wants to feel manly, so he will never say anything that can make him look otherwise. He wouldn't tell me if he wanted to hurry up and get it over with because he knows it would upset me, so he wouldn't tell me if that were the truth.


It is unlikely that a guy who wants to feel "manly" feels so with wife beating him down over lack of sex. Not saying you don't have a genuine problem. I just think, and have mentioned, a different tack is in order.

And like lot of folks here, it is easier to ignore it.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't assume that that they have tried different things, usually in the form of talking about what THEY need. Ineffective as we've seen. Because they are trying to GET THROUGH TO their spouse, not seek understanding WITH their spouse. Their backs are up in full defensive posture, and it is easier and more self satisfying to remain a victim. I don't place you in this category. Your attitude seems different, though you are still more bent on talking at him than understanding where HE is at.
> 
> I know where he is at. I understand why he is stressed and why he avoids sex(to an extent). He is in his own little world, lost in his stressed out mind, where he doesn't think of sex. I don't talk at him and I've asked him many questions, but he will always say I "don't get him". He's bent on never accepting that I could understand what he is going through.
> 
> ...


It's not ignored, it just doesn't help every situation. People come in here thinking they found the right path and assume it will help everyone, but it doesn't. Every situation is different and the path to fix it is different. What happened in Mary's case does no reflect my own and doesn't help me. The issues I have are different, so we have to handle it differently.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I like your name Holding on!..


AH, then you probably do not understand. 13 years ago when I joined another marriage discussion forum I was in year 5 of MC. At that point I was holding on to the love I had for my wife despite our differences (financial as well as sexual). Hence the name. 3 years later (8 years of MC and a couple of sex therapists here and there) we threw in the towel and stopped MC. At that point I began holding on to the frustration and resentment instead. Has proven much more rewarding than holding on to love and getting kicked in the teeth every night. I keep the name across marriage forums in case I run across someone who knows me from somewhere else.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I also have thought.. "My gawd, it's good he married ME!! .. cause if he doesn't feel desire from a woman.. he wouldn't touch her.. he would have ended up an empty shell with a true low driving woman who never cared, didn't need it...


That would be me and my wife. She never cared and doesn't need it. Finally after 20 years of marriage I gave up asking. So we no longer have sex.



> What a waste it would have been...


Yes, I am living in a wasteland. My wife loves me, but for a variety of reasons (rapes, my physical deficiencies, 20 years of trying and failing) is unable to enjoy sex with me. I no longer enjoy sex with her. So there is no point in us having sex. The "happy" news is that lately I am pretty well impotent (even "with myself"), so that makes it much easier for me to refrain from asking.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I've done what I can to be a good wife, but our sex life still isn't that great. Then what?


Divorce or suck it up and endure. Less pessimistic people would say accept and make the best of it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> It's not ignored, it just doesn't help every situation. People come in here thinking they found the right path and assume it will help everyone, but it doesn't.


I am not sure where you see that in what I have written. I would venture that for those who haven't tried new approaches, new approaches won't work. But plenty of people's situations are not similar enough for these pieces of experience to be helpful. Fair enough. But the former are the people of whom I speak. These posters are lambasting a completely open and honest poster whose insight MIGHT be helpful with how awful she is, how she should have done this and should have done that. Things with which she readily agrees in insight. What these posters do for self reflection on how this poster's experience might help them figure out something better for themselves.

Instead women are just evil, bait and switch, withholders who are not living up to their "vows". I will tell you what, that gets me red hot every time. Oh baby, can I live up to my vows now, you bitter, crankier demander you? You KNOW how that lights my fire.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> People _like_ thinking these things are issue of drive because, frankly, it is easier than unraveling a mess of resentment, disappointment, fear, trauma or whatever is really going on.


To be blunt, any time anyone comes on here and tells me what I know, how I know it, and what motivates me, I can pretty much guarantee what my reaction will be. 

Some of what you state might be useful, but it's hard to get past the arrogance.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Divorce or suck it up and endure. Less pessimistic people would say accept and make the best of it.


I choose neither to the above. I'm not looking to divorce, but won't really 'accept' very little sex either, so I've talk to my husband many times about our situation, gotten books, changed how I act/react to an extent, and so on. Luckily, things may change for us coming up since the cause of the issue(according to him) is about to change. We'll see what happens.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> To be blunt, any time anyone comes on here and tells me what I know, how I know it, and what motivates me, I can pretty much guarantee what my reaction will be.
> 
> Some of what you state might be useful, but it's hard to get past the arrogance.


You took the OP's post as arrogant?

And even given that. You will allow your current reaction to drive your ability to learn? That is pretty self limiting.

I read a book, many years ago, on a parenting topic. The author was really sanctimonious. I threw the book in the corner. But it niggled at the back of my mind. I finally took it out and read it again. She was still sanctimonious. But she also made some really good points. I could choose to let he fact that I did not like her writing style limit my ability to think about the material. Or I could just think about the reading material and leave the opinions of the writing style alone.

Your choice. You are the one who is unhappy.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> You took the OP's post as arrogant?
> 
> And even given that. You will allow your current reaction to drive your ability to learn? That is pretty self limiting.
> 
> ...


Yes. Not the original post, but in ones after. It's arrogant to come in thinking the way you handled something will be the "knight in shining armor" for another couple. I and I'm sure others did read through what she wrote, and guess what, it still doesn't help my situation and probably does not help others. I already know what she talked about it. I didn't learn anything new. My situation is different, so the info here doesn't help.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> Yes. It's arrogant to come in thinking the way you handled something will be the "knight in shining armor" for another couple.


So I would suggest you look at yourself and see if there is some self protection or defensiveness going on there. She shared her experience, as did others, something you are consistently resistant to listening to. Other people's experiences are not a criticism of you. They just aren't.



> I and I'm sure others did read through what she wrote, and guess what, it still doesn't help my situation and probably does not help others. I already know what she talked about it. I didn't learn anything new. My situation is different, so the info here doesn't help.


SO.... what people who MIGHT have something valuable to offer SOMEONE should STFU because some HD person might get offended because of their defensiveness? Is that a good reason to run her off on the rail with the lambastes that have gone on here?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> So I would suggest you look at yourself and see if there is some self protection or defensiveness going on there. She shared her experience, something you are consistently resistant to listening to. Other people's experiences are not a criticism of you. They just aren't.
> 
> I didn't take it as a criticism. I just get annoyed with the "if you just listen to what she has to say, you would be in a better place" comments, many of which were from you. That's not true, and I'd rather call out the bs than let it go on as being considered "true".
> 
> SO.... what people who MIGHT have something valuable to offer SOMEONE should STFU because some HD person might get offended because of their defensiveness? Is that a good reason to run her off on the rail with the lambastes that have gone on here?


If people want to tell there story, more power to them. I'm truly happy for those who have found a way to make things work. I'm glad Mary had an eye opener and got to experience what it's like to be HD to see what her husband feels. She changed after that happened and while that's great, it doesn't necessarily help others since she only made that change after she experienced a higher drive. That won't make another LD "see the light" because they haven't experienced the same thing. Should she be run off, no. I don't think I ever tried to do that. I just don't see her info as all that helpful to many people.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> If people want to tell there story, more power to them. I'm truly happy for those who have found a way to make things work. I'm glad Mary had an eye opener and got to experience what it's like to be HD to see what her husband feels. She changed after that happened and while that's great, it doesn't necessarily help others since she only made that change after she experienced a higher drive. That won't *make *another _LD "see the light"_ because they haven't experienced the same thing. Should she be run off, no. I don't think I ever tried to do that. I just don't see her info as all that helpful to many people.


No I would agree that the experiences herein will not help with that. I don't think that is a useful goal. As to the many. As many as are willing to actually listen it has the chance to help.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> You took the OP's post as arrogant?


No, that was directed at you.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I choose neither to the above. I'm not looking to divorce, but won't really 'accept' very little sex either, so I've talk to my husband many times about our situation, gotten books, changed how I act/react to an extent, and so on.


Yes, of course. You don't accept the stark choice TO START. Instead, you "try everything" to see if you can entice the LD spouse to engage at a level the HD finds acceptable.

In my view, "trying" is best done by following marduk's advice. Become the best person you can be. Hopefully your spouse is motivated to change their behavior in order to keep you around.

But I was responding to the question what to do AFTER you have "tried everything" and the HD is still not satisfied. At that point, you divorce or settle. Or you grab them in a bear hug and take them with you when you jump off the cliff. But that last choice is not seriously recommended as a way to live a happy life. In fact, I think we have laws against it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, that was directed at you.


Oh. I have been accused of that before. I am so misunderstood! 

Think what you like. I am good with that. It hurts me not at all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,
This is inherently a painful topic. Posts on both sides of the chasm would often infuriate me. 

But then I applied for and got my Swiss passport - said document being contingent on adopting and maintaining a neutral position. 

Now I just try and learn stuff and pass it on. 

Are you triggering on something that happened to you? 

Terms like pathetic and rigid tend not to facilitate open communication. 




NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure where you see that in what I have written. I would venture that for those who haven't tried new approaches, new approaches won't work. But plenty of people's situations are not similar enough for these pieces of experience to be helpful. Fair enough. But the former are the people of whom I speak. These posters are lambasting a completely open and honest poster whose insight MIGHT be helpful with how awful she is, how she should have done this and should have done that. Things with which she readily agrees in insight. What these posters do for self reflection on how this poster's experience might help them figure out something better for themselves.
> 
> Instead women are just evil, bait and switch, withholders who are not living up to their "vows". I will tell you what, that gets me red hot every time. Oh baby, can I live up to my vows now, you bitter, crankier demander you? You KNOW how that lights my fire.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Somebody,
> This is inherently a painful topic. Posts on both sides of the chasm would often infuriate me.
> 
> But then I applied for and got my Swiss passport - said document being contingent on adopting and maintaining a neutral position.
> ...


Sorry. I am not triggered at all. I think that much of what is done in legislative session is "pathetic" as well. Some of those topics are charged for people. I speak what I think. The HD group think that they have a monopoly on a particularly painful thing. OP has shown that that is not the case. You see people on this board calling "LD" people immoral all the time. How is that better than calling something pathetic? Yet rarely are they called out, even as gently as you have done here, for it? 

I forget sometimes that I have to edit my tone for this board. I am neither triggered nor a big, fat arrogant meanie.

I had the benefit, 20 or so years ago, of an unmoderated board. The clue-by-four that was applied to my head was what finally got me to understand. I think that as a society, our desire to be "nice" to each other can limit being understood by each other.

For instance, when my DH and I went through our early troubles, he was very caring. He was never "nice".

I will resume attempting to be nice.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, of course. You don't accept the stark choice TO START. Instead, you "try everything" to see if you can entice the LD spouse to engage at a level the HD finds acceptable.
> 
> In my view, "trying" is best done by following marduk's advice. Become the best person you can be. Hopefully your spouse is motivated to change their behavior in order to keep you around.


I think one of the most difficult things about these things is that they often are allowed to linger for many years which is a darned sight harder than dealing with them early when the good feelings are still more fresh.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Generally speaking, LD folks are treated very badly on this board. 

And it's ironic because the folks harassing them as the very same people who need their help. 

I am attempting to reduce the hostility quotient without immediately nuking people for conduct that they've maybe gotten away with in the past. 

It's merely a few clicks to ban someone. Far harder to get them to engage constructively. Mostly I'm taking the slow road. 

If my success rate is low, my approach will change. 



NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry. I am not triggered at all. I think that much of what is done in legislative session is "pathetic" as well. Some of those topics are charged for people. I speak what I think. The HD group think that they have a monopoly on a particularly painful thing. OP has shown that that is not the case. You see people on this board calling "LD" people immoral all the time. How is that better than calling something pathetic? Yet rarely are they called out, even as gently as you have done here, for it?
> 
> I forget sometimes that I have to edit my tone for this board. I am neither triggered nor a big, fat arrogant meanie.
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Generally speaking, LD folks are treated very badly on this board.
> 
> And it's ironic because the folks harassing them as the very same people who need their help.


Thank you for understanding what I was so ineptly trying to say.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> What's my point? My point simply was that her husband had nothing to do with her LD and he had nothing to do with her drive returning. He got what he got and he will get what he gets. Though her last paragraph describes this as a couple problem in reality, it appears to have been quite one-sided. She didn't come to some epiphany that withholding was wrong because it's just wrong, her libido magically came back and she wants to maintain it because she's finding sex personally pleasurable.


This is actually a very important point: that in these cases at least, the LD partner does NOT understand or appreciate the suffering that the HD partner is enduring, unless and until the LD partner somehow experiences it for himself or herself, which makes it real to the LD partner for the first time. 

I suspect this is very common, but I'm not sure why it should be. I can understand that my partner is suffering even if her suffering is something I haven't endured myself, and want to help when that happens. Why don't LD partners have this same reaction?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

technovelist said:


> This is actually a very important point: that in these cases at least, the LD partner does NOT understand or appreciate the suffering that the HD partner is enduring, unless and until the LD partner somehow experiences it for himself or herself, which makes it real to the LD partner for the first time.
> 
> I suspect this is very common, but I'm not sure why it should be. I can understand that my partner is suffering even if her suffering is something I haven't endured myself, and want to help when that happens. Why don't LD partners have this same reaction?


I think in some cases, mine for example, the lower demand partner thinks the higher demand partner is suffering because of their own actions. If the higher demand partner would just ACCEPT that what they want is abnormal then they wouldn't have to suffer. 

Being a tea teetotaler, I know I can't comprehend how someone withdrawing from an addiction might suffer. But I know enough that to try to help them by giving them the same substance that caused the addiction is the wrong course of action. Am I being cruel by being that way? I don't believe so. 

It's not that I'm not sympathetic, it's that I don't comprehend because I have nothing to compare the experience to, and therefore can't understand the suffering. I believe this is is also true for lower demand partners in many cases.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Technovelist,
We must be reading different threads. 

Mary35's husband didn't just make mistakes. He made bad choices over and over again. 

A mistake is a typo. A report that you turn in at work which is full of typos - is from a choice not to use a spell checker/get someone to edit your work.

Big difference between a mistake and a choice. 

I'm dumbfounded that folks see this as: her H had no power - all this just happened to him

That's clearly not true. 



Originally Posted by MEM11363 View Post
Happy,

There is a massive amount of non verbal communication in any marriage. That's perfectly normal. 

What's the message I'm sending as the HD if I frequently initiate even though I am consistently getting hurry up and finish starfish sex with no kissing? 

I believe the message is utterly unmistakable:
- Sex is something I'm doing FOR me, TO you
- I enjoy it despite unmistakable signals that you DON'T enjoy it

Now - a one off - might just be a mistake borne from momentary desperation. I can be sympathetic to an HD doing that. But a pattern - means what it means.
That is the message I heard - loud and clear - and it re-affirmed my belief that sex had nothing to do with love or emotional connection. And it confirmed in my faulty brain - that it was only about sexual gratification for him.
---------------------------------------

Mary35
I can vividly remember thinking on many occasions while he did his thing - Why does he do this - he knows I don't want too? This isn't love! And when he was done - I would roll to my side of the bed, as far away as possible. 

I now know I caused him pain and suffering every time I rejected him - and I am 100% sure similar thoughts ran through his mind during those rejections. I also know that he would tell you if he did not accept the starfish sex - he would not have gotten any sex at all. 

Or... possibly...could he have changed things if he had challenged me in the early years with "No thanks - I appreciate the offer, especially since it has been a long time since you have allowed me to have sex with you. But frankly I am not interested in just using your body to get an orgasm. I can do that with my hand. I want to have sex with you - to connect with you - to show my love and desire for you. But I also want to feel that you love me and desire me. And right now - I don't feel loved and desired by you. Our relationship is in trouble. I think we need to get some professional help, as I can't live in a relationship where I feel unloved and repulsive."
------------------------




technovelist said:


> This is actually a very important point: that in these cases at least, the LD partner does NOT understand or appreciate the suffering that the HD partner is enduring, unless and until the LD partner somehow experiences it for himself or herself, which makes it real to the LD partner for the first time.
> 
> I suspect this is very common, but I'm not sure why it should be. I can understand that my partner is suffering even if her suffering is something I haven't endured myself, and want to help when that happens. Why don't LD partners have this same reaction?


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Technovelist,
> We must be reading different threads.
> 
> Mary35's husband didn't just make mistakes. He made bad choices over and over again.
> ...


Of course there would have been a way for the HD spouse to communicate better; there is always a way to communicate better.

My point, which I still believe is valid, is that in many cases the LD spouse cannot understand the pain that the HD spouse is in, EVEN IF the HD spouse tries to explain that in the plainest possible terms. But when the LD spouse has a burst of higher drive, THEN the LD spouse "magically" understands the real cost to the HD spouse.

This seems to apply to more than one case on this thread, or am I still completely off-base?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Technovelist,
> We must be reading different threads.
> 
> Mary35's husband didn't just make mistakes. He made bad choices over and over again.
> ...


MEM,

I very much respect your opinion, but it's hard to know. Perhaps he did feel it was starfish sex or nothing. I sometimes think your perception is skewed by your own situation. 

M2 clearly loves you and is willing to work to make you happy. That is not always clear in all relationships. I understand that perhaps he could have tried to communicate more, but if Mary wasn't open to the communications when he tried, it is very easy to back off because your attempts are seen as making the situation worse. 

I wasn't there, but I would be VERY surprised if at no time during their troubles, especially early on, he didn't ask, WHY? What changed? What have I done that has made you angry? 

If her response wasn't welcoming, for what ever reason, it becomes very difficult to continue because the perception is you are making the situation worse. She clearly stated that he loved her, so it is natural that he wouldn't want to press too hard for fear of upsetting her. I'm not saying this happened, but it seems like a natural thing that could happen. It is also easily forgotten after many years if he wasn't persistent. 

Her last paragraph, where she details what might have happened if he had taken her aside and laid it out, strikes me as wishful thinking. Mary wishes he had done that to awaken what was lurking inside NOW. But then, when she was mired in her own misery? I'm not so sure she would have been as accepting of it. And if he didn't want to divorce her for his own reasons, why would he offer that as an idle threat, knowing it would hurt her?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
It seems the divide remains. Maybe the problem is that LD and HD cover to much ground.

Some LD people will never want frequent sex NO MATTER WHAT THEIR PARTNERS DO. They will never be happy with frequent sex.

To some HD people an active sex life is deeply connected to their happiness. They cannot be happy without sex, NO MATTER WHAT ELSE IS GOING ON. They will never be happy without frequent sex.


I haven't seen a lot of posts by "true" LDs, people who say "no matter what, I just don't want sex - not with anyone, no matter what sort of person they are". 

I do see a lot of posts by LD people who basically say "my partner treats me badly, so I don't enjoy sex with them".


If you have a true LD and true HD marriage, the advice is often to get out. This unfortunately ignores the idea that things other than sex are ALSO important. It also ignores the eternal hope that things will *somehow* improve.

So eternally the HD asks "why can't he/she do this one little thing for me", and the LD asks "why does he/she keep insisting that I do this one thing for them".


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure where you see that in what I have written. I would venture that for those who haven't tried new approaches, new approaches won't work. But plenty of people's situations are not similar enough for these pieces of experience to be helpful. Fair enough. But the former are the people of whom I speak. These posters are lambasting a completely open and honest poster whose insight MIGHT be helpful with how awful she is, how she should have done this and should have done that. Things with which she readily agrees in insight. What these posters do for self reflection on how this poster's experience might help them figure out something better for themselves.
> 
> Instead women are just evil, bait and switch, withholders who are not living up to their "vows". I will tell you what, that gets me red hot every time. Oh baby, can I live up to my vows now, you bitter, crankier demander you? You KNOW how that lights my fire.


Besides unbelievable' posts on this thread (and to be fair, I didn't notice him making this a "women" thing), I don't see lambasting (maybe I should look that word up, it has been awhile).


I would agree an argument based on living up to vows is in most, if not all, cases going to cause much damage. It is supposed to be a loving relationship, not a court case.

Fwiw, I have learned some things from your posts here and especially on other threads, and some of what you say has been different than the usual TAM posts. I value that. 

But, it seems here you are making assumptions about who is or is not listening, and what their openness to learning new things is. Of course, that is just a hunch -- I have no way of knowing.

I know little of unbelievable, but am certain his posts with an interrogative feel, a "power over" feel were inappropriate. I am glad they didn't cause the thread to end, and attribute that to mary35's graceful handling of them, which I saw included a sincere attempt to hear some signal from his noise.

I'd really like to get back to the subjects mary35 would like to discuss, and away from the meta-TAM.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

mary35 said:


> For most - these long term drive conflicts are way more complicated than one spouse refusing to have sex over and over "simply" because they don't feel like it!


Unless these people are paralyzed, they have genitals, mouths, and hands. They have brains that decide what they do (or don't do) with them. I'm not sure why this is complicated. If my wife needs me to do something that's important to her, I do it. I don't have to naturally feel like it. Before I could watch my wife twist in frustration for months or years when I had the ability to give her relief, I'd have to either hate her or not give two cents for her feelings.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening unbelievable
the only model I can imagine for this, is for you to imagine that she is male (assuming you are not bi). Then would you be up for giving her pleasure?

I don't know if that is how LDs feel, but I can't imagine any other sort of explanation.



unbelievable said:


> Unless these people are paralyzed, they have genitals, mouths, and hands. They have brains that decide what they do (or don't do) with them. I'm not sure why this is complicated. If my wife needs me to do something that's important to her, I do it. I don't have to naturally feel like it. Before I could watch my wife twist in frustration for months or years when I had the ability to give her relief, I'd have to either hate her or not give two cents for her feelings.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

technovelist said:


> This is actually a very important point: that in these cases at least, the LD partner does NOT understand or appreciate the suffering that the HD partner is enduring, unless and until the LD partner somehow experiences it for himself or herself, which makes it real to the LD partner for the first time.
> 
> I suspect this is very common, but I'm not sure why it should be. I can understand that my partner is suffering even if her suffering is something I haven't endured myself, and want to help when that happens. Why don't LD partners have this same reaction?


I have never been pregnant but wouldn't everyone expect me to tend to my pregnant wife's needs? I've never experienced the frustration of being a dog and I don't understand the thrill they get out of playing "fetch", but they can't throw their own sticks, so I throw them. Your husband or wife has needs. You are the only one on earth in a position to meet those needs. If you refuse to do so, how could you still be considered a spouse? I assume most LD types would be outraged if their spouse went elsewhere with their sexual business. If your spouse's sexual business is your business, then it's your responsibility to reasonably handle that business.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry. I am not triggered at all. I think that much of what is done in legislative session is "pathetic" as well. Some of those topics are charged for people. I speak what I think. *The HD group think that they have a monopoly on a particularly painful thing.* OP has shown that that is not the case. You see people on this board calling "LD" people immoral all the time. How is that better than calling something pathetic? Yet rarely are they called out, even as gently as you have done here, for it?
> 
> I forget sometimes that I have to edit my tone for this board. I am neither triggered nor a big, fat arrogant meanie.
> 
> ...


That is the problem right there. There is no thing as the "HD group". Everyone is unique and in a unique situation. If you want to be nice, stop painting with such a wide brush.

I happen to think I have been very cognizant of my wife's pain, very patient, and have put way more energy than was good for any of us in trying to figure out a way to resolve it. Don't tell me what I think. please.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> That is the problem right there. There is no thing as the "HD group". Everyone is unique and in a unique situation. If you want to be nice, stop painting with such a wide brush.
> 
> I happen to think I have been very cognizant of my wife's pain, very patient, and have put way more energy than was good for any of us in trying to figure out a way to resolve it. Don't tell me what I think. please.


That is fair. I think there is a small group that is particularly vocal that makes it harder to recognize folks such as yourself. That is not what I meant to do.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> No I would agree that the experiences herein will not help with that. I don't think that is a useful goal. As to the many. _As many as are willing to actually listen it has the chance to help_.


I think you are projecting here. 

If I remember correctly, that is what helped fix your marriage. Your husband learned to listen and began to better take care of your needs, so an effect of that was that your sex life got better as well. 

The problem is that many here already do those things. I can think of a few posters off hand who already do everything they can to please their partners and take care of their needs, listening to them well, but still have to jump through hoops to have sex(a need of theirs). It hasn't fixed their marriage. I know I've listened well to my husband and done what I can to make sure his needs are met, follow his love language, and so on. It hasn't fixed our sex life issue.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

technovelist said:


> Of course there would have been a way for the HD spouse to communicate better; there is always a way to communicate better.
> 
> My point, which I still believe is valid, is that in many cases the LD spouse cannot understand the pain that the HD spouse is in, EVEN IF the HD spouse tries to explain that in the plainest possible terms.* But when the LD spouse has a burst of higher drive, THEN the LD spouse "magically" understands the real cost to the HD spouse.*
> 
> This seems to apply to more than one case on this thread, or am I still completely off-base?


That is the reason for a few people here who have fixed the LD/HD issue. It was the case for Mary, as well as SA, and I believe a couple others. Mary's was from medication, while SA had a jump in her drive from a hormonal shift in aging(perimenopause?). It was only then that they realized how much the HD spouse was suffering with rejection/being turned down for sex often.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh baby, can I live up to my vows now, you bitter, crankier demander you? You KNOW how that lights my fire.


That made me chuckle. Thank you for that 

I would be the first to admit that it's horribly unromantic to express things in quasi legal terms and would never in a million years express myself this way to a spouse.

Hell, this isn't a subject that at a personal level, should be discussed in writing anyway, because written composition by it's very nature throws up a wall of formality.

If you don't mind my asking though, why are the ideas of obligation, fairness, reciprocity, _quid pro quo_, equitability, etc. so infuriating? Or am I misunderstanding entirely?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anonymous07 said:


> If people want to tell there story, more power to them. I'm truly happy for those who have found a way to make things work. I'm glad Mary had an eye opener and got to experience what it's like to be HD to see what her husband feels. She changed after that happened and while that's great, it doesn't necessarily help others since she only made that change after she experienced a higher drive. That won't make another LD "see the light" because they haven't experienced the same thing.* Should she be run off, no. I don't think I ever tried to do that. I just don't see her info as all that helpful to many people*.


I feel Mary's personal story would be *MOST helpful* to wives who are suffering from the over thinking of Good Girl Syndrome... I would think there would be more women on christian forums who fit this profile.. but still.. I think it's good we/ anyone can come here.. open up & share our experiences .... even if only a small handful may be able to relate to them.... 

I learned something NEW on this thread .. when I clicked on that link.. and how this can happen to someone even after they had a healthy sex life...who would think it. Messages, what we listen too, how we run with it.. can be very powerful to help us or harm us. 



Holdingontoit said:


> AH, then you probably do not understand. 13 years ago when I joined another marriage discussion forum I was in year 5 of MC. At that point I was holding on to the love I had for my wife despite our differences (financial as well as sexual). Hence the name. 3 years later (8 years of MC and a couple of sex therapists here and there) we threw in the towel and stopped MC. *At that point I began holding on to the frustration and resentment instead. Has proven much more rewarding than holding on to love and getting kicked in the teeth every night. I keep the name across marriage forums in case I run across someone who knows me from somewhere else.*
> 
> *That would be me and my wife. She never cared and doesn't need it. Finally after 20 years of marriage I gave up asking. So we no longer have sex.
> 
> Yes, I am living in a wasteland. My wife loves me, but for a variety of reasons (rapes, my physical deficiencies, 20 years of trying and failing) is unable to enjoy sex with me. I no longer enjoy sex with her. So there is no point in us having sex. * The "happy" news is that lately I am pretty well impotent (even "with myself"), so that makes it much easier for me to refrain from asking.


 I am so sorry HoldingOnto it... It's so hard to know what to say... Marriage was never intended to be this way.. sounds she had a lot of trauma in her life..which forever clouded her want of the act.. nothing to do with you.. but this still doesn't erase or limit the pain.. Everything we do.. how we treat others has it's "trickle down" effects ... Life can be so very unfair.

This thread is surely riddled with high emotion on both sides... I hope you have other enjoyments in life ... friends/ family...your work.. a special hobby that brings you happiness...that has helped you through all these years.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> That made me chuckle. Thank you for that


I was laughing when I wrote it.


> I would be the first to admit that it's horribly unromantic to express things in quasi legal terms and would never in a million years express myself this way to a spouse.
> 
> Hell, this isn't a subject that at a personal level, should be discussed in writing anyway, because written composition by it's very nature throws up a wall of formality.


Maybe. The subject is both personal and complex. Certainly not easy.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am often amazed when I write something on these forums and I think my meaning and intentions is so clear - and yet so many people can find so many different meanings and intentions in my words. 

One of the many hazards of internet forums - where what you write is read by total strangers, people whose backgrounds and experiences widely vary, who are of all ages and cultures, all of which we are totally unaware of, as we write and respond to each other. Heck we don't even know many forum members gender even. 

I started this thread for one main reason - to try to get those who experience lower sex drives in their marriage which is causing a problem in their marriage, to come out and talk about it. Perhaps, I should have simply wrote that. It just seemed to me that thread after thread in this section of TAM is done by those who have the higher drive and are looking for help with their LD spouses. Many of those threads are just major gripe sessions against LD spouses. After reading one of those I thought to myself - what could we learn if LDs came on and told their side. That is why I started this thread and my intention was actually quite simple - to get LDs to talk to, spieak out, tell their side, tell their stories, share their pain. My hope was that perhaps, just perhaps in these stories, and experiences, etc. just maybe someone might read something that struck a cord, that gave an insight, or made them think deeper about a particular aspect that might help them in their own marriage - whether they be the LD or the HD. 

Forgive me for coming across any other way! I only shared my experiences to help others feel comfortable to do the same. I never meant to imply or even insinuate in any way I had the answer or any answers for anyone. If anyone has read any of my other posts on TAM - you would see that I highly advocate sex therapy. I believe that most of these types of long term conflicts require professional help and even with that - not all of them will be solved. Even after my sexual awakening - it took therapy for me to deal with my faulty thinking patterns, and to learn how to communicate with my husband about sex, etc.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

There has been some really good insight in these last couple of pages. So MEM, I agree with your light handed policy. There was a time I came to TAM, many years ago (in the heat of the high testoterone situation) when I was actually thinking about having an affair. A poster responded to a thread I started - and pretty well rimmed me up one side and down the other. He/She actually got banned for it. But her post struck a cord in me - and caused me to do some serious thinking. I asked the Mods to unban that person so I could continue a dialogue with them. That one person helped me avoid a serious disaster - even with their not so nice words to me. 

However - saying that - LD's are a rare commidity when it comes to speaking out about their situations. And I would hate to see them run off because of angry comments directed towards them. I have a hard shell - but many others do not! 

I guess those on this site have to decide if they need to vent worse than they need to understand. I have a feeling you can't always do both - especially if venting drives away those who can help you understand.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

mary35 said:


> I am often amazed when I write something on these forums and I think my meaning and intentions is so clear - and yet so many people can find so many different meanings and intentions in my words.


I think part of the problem is because on one hand, you have people who's spouses think it's okay to go years without while on the other hand you have people who's spouses think every day is not enough.

Both sides walk away thinking the right of their spouse to abuse them is being defended.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening unbelievable
> the only model I can imagine for this, is for you to imagine that she is male (assuming you are not bi). Then would you be up for giving her pleasure?
> 
> I don't know if that is how LDs feel, but I can't imagine any other sort of explanation.


If I wasn't up for tending to someone's reasonable sexual needs, male or female, I wouldn't marry them. That's part of the job. If you exchange vows of sexual exclusivity with another human, aren't you promising to take care of their reasonable sexual needs? Nobody else is allowed to do so. Do you believe you have the right to force someone else into celibacy?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

mary35 said:


> How do HD's contribute to your lack of desire for them.


My wife thinks a penis is articulated with muscles and tendons and that men simply extend it like an index finger whenever they want. No amount of explanation has ever made a dent in that belief. 

She'll come into my office (My office is an addition I built on to the house) while I'm on the phone with a problem customer and get pissy with me after the call ends because I need thirty minutes or so to unwind.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Mary35 said*: Forgive me for coming across any other way! *I only shared my experiences to help others feel comfortable to do the same. I never meant to imply or even insinuate in any way I had the answer or any answers for anyone.*


 It seems most everyone has got in trouble for this on TAM !!! It's hard to even know how to conduct a thread sometimes... as it may be taken another way ... I think it's very helpful to relay a personal story when starting any sort of thread.. so others will feel more comfortable joining in.... 



> If anyone has read any of my other posts on TAM - you would see tha*t I highly advocate sex therapy.* I believe that most of these types of long term conflicts require professional help and even with that - not all of them will be solved. Even after my sexual awakening - it took therapy for me to deal with my faulty thinking patterns, and to learn how to communicate with my husband about sex, etc.


 I'm curious..I am thinking insurance doesn't pay for this sort of thing... About how expensive is a sex therapist ?? 



CopperTop said:


> *I wasn't there, but I would be VERY surprised if at no time during their troubles, especially early on, he didn't ask, WHY? What changed? What have I done that has made you angry?
> 
> If her response wasn't welcoming, for what ever reason, it becomes very difficult to continue because the perception is you are making the situation worse. She clearly stated that he loved her, so it is natural that he wouldn't want to press too hard for fear of upsetting her. I'm not saying this happened, but it seems like a natural thing that could happen. It is also easily forgotten after many years if he wasn't persistent.
> 
> Her last paragraph, where she details what might have happened if he had taken her aside and laid it out, strikes me as wishful thinking. Mary wishes he had done that to awaken what was lurking inside NOW. But then, when she was mired in her own misery? I'm not so sure she would have been as accepting of it. And if he didn't want to divorce her for his own reasons, why would he offer that as an idle threat, knowing it would hurt her?*


it's always good to hear the other side.. I think what you say is very reasonable.. Using myself as an example ... when I was basket cased over yrs trying to conceive..... my H has said outright to me -thinking back to that time.. that he doesn't feel anything he did would have changed my attitude.. due to my ONE TRACT MINDEDNESS .... I was just more grouchy...

Like he would come home from work sometimes -happy to see me.. wanting to put his arms around me...IN THE MOOD...but my attitude was "off putting" ....(not all the time- we had a young son who brought us great joy).... 

These things ...Never HIS FAULT... *it was all ME*...and my frustration with the yrs dragging by.. loosing hope.. so yeah... he just wanted to keep the peace...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> About how expensive is a sex therapist ??


The one we have scheduled to attend... $200 an hour.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

mary35 said:


> I am often amazed when I write something on these forums and I think my meaning and intentions is so clear - and yet so many people can find so many different meanings and intentions in my words.
> 
> One of the many hazards of internet forums - where what you write is read by total strangers, people whose backgrounds and experiences widely vary, who are of all ages and cultures, all of which we are totally unaware of, as we write and respond to each other. Heck we don't even know many forum members gender even.
> 
> I started this thread for one main reason - to try to get those who experience lower sex drives in their marriage which is causing a problem in their marriage, to come out and talk about it.


I'll try. I have mentioned some of this before, but not everyone reads every single thread.

This was many years ago, early in our marriage. I am by no means low drive by nature. As newly weds, despite living together, we had radically different experiences leading us to have very different day-to-day life expectations. I fought to be "right". He withdrew. We both developed resentment.

We were spiraling toward the drain. I don't think either of thought we were going to last more than a couple of years.

Within the same time frame ish, we both got clarity on what we could and should let go and what limits we needed to set. I ste limits on using me as a domestic slave. It is relevant because that was my part of the resentment, feeling that he had bought sex and a maid. Not sure what currency I was thinking was part of that transaction since I made the money at the time.

Wrt specifically to sex. He was very clear. I love YOU.I want YOU. I can get sex anywhere. And that was and continues to be true. I don't just want to have sex with you. I don't want you to give me resentful sex. So I am backing all the way off. We either work sex out together, or eventually I am out of here.

At about the same time, my limits I had set around domestic expectations made the delta between what I was doing and what he was doing became much clearer to him. Rather than continuing to everything, I just stopped. He could really SEE what was involved.

These things, happening at the same time, allowed us each to see the other's PoV. I made it crystal clear that I was not an income generating housekeeper and was not going to remain as such. He made it crystal clear that he was not going to remain, not only in a sexless marriage, but a marriage devoid of genuine, cheerful loving sex as we had previously enjoyed. It was like a cartoon with 2 figures getting lightbulbs going off over our heads.

The road to a better place was not immediate. I had to fake it till I could make it in the sex department since resentment had made me feel flat for so long. But we both put our best foot forward.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening unbelievable
You are not LD. I am not LD. We both assumed that "tending our partners reasonable needs" was expected in marriage and are happy to do so. We probably both consider those "reasonable" needs to be several times a week. We see our partners as withholding something critical to our happiness. We just wish they would be "normal".

Our LD partners on the other hand may have had no such expectation. They may have assumed that sex would naturally taper off after the novelty wore off. They possibly assumed that sex every few months was all than any normal couple did. They see us as horny old goats, who insist on constant sex and get angry when we don't get it. They just wish we would be "normal". 






unbelievable said:


> If I wasn't up for tending to someone's reasonable sexual needs, male or female, I wouldn't marry them. That's part of the job. If you exchange vows of sexual exclusivity with another human, aren't you promising to take care of their reasonable sexual needs? Nobody else is allowed to do so. Do you believe you have the right to force someone else into celibacy?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I will disagree. The decision to have sex with someone was made at the wedding. That's the deal we all made and it didn't come with the caveat "if I feel like it".


I can’t believe no one else has commented on that statement. Do you realize that’s the justification that was once used when husbands forced themselves on wives before marital rape was considered a crime? 

At marriage, faithfulness is what is promised. Forsaking all others. “I will not have sex with anybody else.” Getting married is not an unspoken contract for a blanket consent for sex for the rest of the marriage. Consent varies with circumstances.

Do you also believe it’s okay to have sex with a drunk person who might say no had they been sober?

Do you also believe it’s okay for an adult to have sex with a minor if the minor doesn’t say no?

Do you also believe that if someone says they’ll have sex and then changes their mind, that it’s okay to continue anyway?

Do you also believe that if the guy pays for the dinner, that the girl owes sex in return? 

Maybe I’m touchy because I work in crime and see the aftermath of rape far too often.



unbelievable said:


> The least common denominator for a great many couples is absolutely no sex and who, among us, signed up for that?
> 
> I suppose I'm having trouble understanding their plight because I haven't spent 5 minutes of my life in a situation where I could simply refuse to do something because I didn't feel like it. I am not HD. I'm just a normally functioning guy. A couple times a week would be great. Once a week would be great. Every six to eight months isn't LD. It's No D.


There aren’t foods you regularly decline to eat because you don’t like them? There aren’t times you choose to stay home instead of going out because you don’t feel like it? There aren’t times where you change the TV channel because a show came on that you don’t enjoy watching?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

CopperTop said:


> The one we have scheduled to attend... $200 an hour.










That's as expensive as seeing a Lawyer!









I think for many , I would try a book like this 1st !..

Sexual Healing: The Complete Guide to Overcoming Common Sexual Problems: Barbara Keesling Ph.D.:



> This expanded edition of Sexual Healing examines every known sexual problem and all possible treatments, including many that are new and experimental.
> 
> The book includes more than 125 exercises for specific problems — including premature ejaculation, female sexual arousal disorder, low sexual desire, and sexual aversion — as well as a new section on advanced sexual healing for physical, emotional, and spiritual problems.
> 
> Written by a sex therapist and surrogate partner with over 20 years experience, the book reflects the wisdom that comes from her unique perspective as a pioneer in the field of sexuality.


I bought this after I caused my Husband some Performance Pressure.. I learned all about "Sensate Focus" exercises ...this helped.. and we worked through it together... 

I am sure the speaking to a Therapist face to face could have more of an impact.. kinda like going to a scheduled exercise class...might prevent laziness -knowing you have to report to someone -plus the cost !!! 

Everything hinges on whether the couple does their "homework" away from these sessions... If a couple is dedicated enough together.. ..

That's just A LOT of money!!.. not everyone could afford that...I guess why many end up on forums searching for help, ideas.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I can’t believe no one else has commented on that statement. Do you realize that’s the justification that was once used when husbands forced themselves on wives before marital rape was considered a crime?


I did not read it as an endorsement of chattel marriage.

Wouldn't it be equally true to say that the decision to be faithful was also made at the time of marriage?

Certainly that doesn't result in a loss of autonomy, because nobody *forces* us to stick to that decision.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I can’t believe no one else has commented on that statement. Do you realize that’s the justification that was once used when husbands forced themselves on wives before marital rape was considered a crime?
> 
> At marriage, faithfulness is what is promised. Forsaking all others. “I will not have sex with anybody else.” Getting married is not an unspoken contract for a blanket consent for sex for the rest of the marriage. Consent varies with circumstances.
> 
> ...


There is a very huge difference between "not tonight" and 
"not ever". If my wife really wants to watch something, I don't change the channel. If she really wants to go out, we go out. I work in "crime", too, and I don't confuse a spouse having sex though they may not magically feel like with rape and more than I confuse going to work with slavery. We all do all sorts of things that don't blow our skirt up. We do what needs to be done for our kids, for our boss, for our pets. Jumping over one's shadow for one's life mate is just out of the question? Seriously? 

I don't have sex with sloppy drunk folks. 
I don't have sex with kids. 
I don't commit rape, never have. 
Pays for dinner? We are getting ridiculous here. A marriage is not going on a date. A marriage is mate coupling and, yes, mating behavior is expected. 

We have folks on this forum who haven't had sex in a decade. What's "consent" got to do with that? You find it perfectly reasonable to promise to be a wife (or husband) and then just do as you jolly well please (but expecting 100% performance from your deprived spouse)?
Faithfulness is about more than just adultery. One who promises to do something and then doesn't isn't faithful. They are no more faithful than one who goes across the street to get something on the side. I'd argue they are more unfaithful because one can commit adultery without their mate even knowing. They can commit adultery and come home and take care of all their responsibilities at home as well. The spouse of a withholder just does without. Again, reasonableness is key to this discussion. Not being in the mood once in a while is not a problem. Cutting your spouse off for months or years at a time is unreasonable.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Hopeful Cynic
I don't read it at all like that. In a marriage it is generally expected that someone will work (house work or job). That doesn't mean that if they refuse to do so, then it is justified to enslave them.

Relationships come with expectations. That does not mean you can force your partner to live up to those expectations, but you have a right to be disappointed / angry if they do not. 

No one that I have seen in the LD/HD discussions has suggested forcing or in any way coercing the LD partner, unless threatening divorce is considered coercion. (I believe that it is always valid to leave a relationship for any reason you might wish).


Similarly someone who pays for dinner might *expect* sex - people are free to *expect* whatever they want. As long as they don't attempt to obtain that sex by coercion it is OK. Once again the threat of not asking the other person on a future date is acceptable. 

I like there to be very clear lines around rape. Rape is sex without consent. There are lots of obnoxious behaviors (like telling someone you expected sex after a date) that are not rape. 






Hopeful Cynic said:


> I can’t believe no one else has commented on that statement. Do you realize that’s the justification that was once used when husbands forced themselves on wives before marital rape was considered a crime?
> 
> At marriage, faithfulness is what is promised. Forsaking all others. “I will not have sex with anybody else.” Getting married is not an unspoken contract for a blanket consent for sex for the rest of the marriage. Consent varies with circumstances.
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> That's as expensive as seeing a Lawyer!


The problem with books is they can't be tailored to your specific situation. I've tried several books for myself, and a couple for us both. None were of any help because she would reject them out of hand. It is much harder to do that with a person. Plus, a real person can call <censored> on rationalizations and excuses. 

This is our first attempt at any type of therapy/counseling. These are a hybrid marriage/sex therapist session. Five one hour classes over five weeks. I have high hopes.

A bit more information on our counselor and the price to be fair to her. She has a sliding scale based on how much one on one time she spends. Her rates range from $50 an hour for a group to $200 for one on one, "deep" therapy. That involves more of her time, more homework, more of her non-therapy time where she reviews and customizes each session, and the time constraints are not as stringent. 

Basically the $200 gets her best, most intensive effort for when you have serious problems... where the $50 rate might be all you need if you just need a little touch-up.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Hopeful Cynic
> I don't read it at all like that. In a marriage it is generally expected that someone will work (house work or job). That doesn't mean that if they refuse to do so, then it is justified to enslave them.
> 
> Relationships come with expectations. That does not mean you can force your partner to live up to those expectations, but you have a right to be disappointed / angry if they do not.
> ...



So, who's forcing someone to do anything? Again, marriage aint a date. We don't have to assume what performance will be expected because we actually take vows. There should be no confusion. There is no implied contract involved in asking someone on a date. There is a very real contract involved in getting married. I wouldn't condone forcing anyone to have sex any more than I'd condone forcing a woman to feed her own infant or forcing a man to protect his family or forcing him to support his family. I'd also think very little of someone in these positions that required forcing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> My wife thinks a penis is articulated with muscles and tendons and that men simply extend it like an index finger whenever they want. No amount of explanation has ever made a dent in that belief.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I can’t believe no one else has commented on that statement. Do you realize that’s the justification that was once used when husbands forced themselves on wives before marital rape was considered a crime?
> 
> At marriage, faithfulness is what is promised. Forsaking all others. “I will not have sex with anybody else.” Getting married is not an unspoken contract for a blanket consent for sex for the rest of the marriage. Consent varies with circumstances.
> 
> ...


Note: the following is a GENERALITY. It does NOT apply to everyone; if it doesn't apply to you, then please feel free to ignore it. It may also be considered very old-fashioned, but I think still applies in MOST cases even today.

Having cleared that up... 
1. The primary reason for a man to get married is for regular sex and possibly children;
2. The primary reason for a woman to get married is for the man to support her and her children.

So if the woman can expect the man to keep supporting her even if he doesn't always feel like it, then the man should be able to expect the woman to have sex with him even if she doesn't always feel like it.

Of course, since we now have no-fault divorce in every US state, anyone who no longer wants to keep up his or her side of this bargain is free to get a divorce.

However, it doesn't seem very fair to me that if one party decides not to hold up their side of the bargain, that the defaulting party is still entitled to compensation as though the bargain were still in effect.

So whoever files for divorce, barring proven fault of the other party (adultery, physical abuse, or the like) should not expect to get anything from the other party, other than division of assets acquired during the marriage.

Child support is another matter for another thread.

In the absence of minor children, does anyone disagree with this analysis, and if so, why?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

technovelist said:


> Note: the following is a GENERALITY. It does NOT apply to everyone; if it doesn't apply to you, then please feel free to ignore it. It may also be considered very old-fashioned, but I think still applies in MOST cases even today.
> 
> Having cleared that up...
> 1. The primary reason for a man to get married is for regular sex and possibly children,
> ...




I've been married twice and yet, neither husband has "supported" me OR my children. I've got my own money, thanks.

Also, neither of my husbands got married for sex or children...men can have sex and children both without being married. 

Women can, too!

I've been married twice because I loved both of these men and wanted to share my life with them. Sex and kids and being supported weren't even on the radar.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Unless these people are paralyzed, they have genitals, mouths, and hands. They have brains that decide what they do (or don't do) with them. I'm not sure why this is complicated. If my wife needs me to do something that's important to her, I do it. I don't have to naturally feel like it. Before I could watch my wife twist in frustration for months or years when I had the ability to give her relief, I'd have to either hate her or not give two cents for her feelings.


Have you ever had sex with someone who you did not want to have sex with?

Do you, or have you, on a regular basis 'serviced' your wife (or anyone else) when you did not really want to be them sexually?


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've been married twice and yet, neither husband has "supported" me OR my children. I've got my own money, thanks.
> 
> Also, neither of my husbands got married for sex or children...men can have sex and children both without being married.
> 
> ...


So this doesn't apply to you. I'd like to hear from people to whom it does apply, assuming there are any such here.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Mem,
> 
> The sincerity of that question would come at the expense of a person's innate sense of right and wrong.
> 
> ...


There is a distinct difference between food and sex. 

People need food or they will die.

No one dies from the lack of sex. It's a secondary 'need'.

Also.. the marriage vows are not only about sex. There are the words "cherish" and "love". 

If one spouse choses to ignore "cherish" and "love" and only pay attention to sex, then they are broken their marriage vows every bit as much as a person who willfully, out of selfishness withholds sex.

If a person is married to a spouse who does not "cherish/love" (take care of their important emotional needs) then the vows are already broken. There is no obligation for a person whose important emotional needs are not being met to have sex with the person who is not cherishing and loving them.

The marriage is broken. It has to be fixed and it takes two to fix a marriage... having sex is not a magical fix.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

Knowing the environment here - you showed some real courage I sharing your story. 

I'd be a hypocrite to deny reacting negatively to some of these threads in the past. 

It IS hard to bridge this chasm. M2 and I worked at it. 

I absolutely believe that certain gaps are too wide to cross. For instance when a HD poster says: there is no such thing as bad sex 

I've learned to let those posters learn the falseness of that statement on their own.







mary35 said:


> There has been some really good insight in these last couple of pages. So MEM, I agree with your light handed policy. There was a time I came to TAM, many years ago (in the heat of the high testoterone situation) when I was actually thinking about having an affair. A poster responded to a thread I started - and pretty well rimmed me up one side and down the other. He/She actually got banned for it. But her post struck a cord in me - and caused me to do some serious thinking. I asked the Mods to unban that person so I could continue a dialogue with them. That one person helped me avoid a serious disaster - even with their not so nice words to me.
> 
> However - saying that - LD's are a rare commidity when it comes to speaking out about their situations. And I would hate to see them run off because of angry comments directed towards them. I have a hard shell - but many others do not!
> 
> I guess those on this site have to decide if they need to vent worse than they need to understand. I have a feeling you can't always do both - especially if venting drives away those who can help you understand.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That's true. 

It's also true that there's a massive difference between being celibate and sharing a home with someone you love and desire who doesn't reciprocate. 




EleGirl said:


> There is a distinct difference between food and sex.
> 
> People need food or they will die.
> 
> ...


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

technovelist said:


> Note: the following is a GENERALITY. It does NOT apply to everyone; if it doesn't apply to you, then please feel free to ignore it. It may also be considered very old-fashioned, but I think still applies in MOST cases even today.
> 
> Having cleared that up...
> 1. The primary reason for a man to get married is for regular sex and possibly children;


What? I thought that the primary reason that men married is because they love their wife and that the primary reason men want sex with their wife is because that’s how they show love and feel love. Are you saying that this is not true? 


technovelist said:


> 2. The primary reason for a woman to get married is for the man to support her and her children.


Times have changed. Woman do not get married to be supported very often anymore.
And marrying to support “HER” children. Guess what, they are “HIS” children too. He has to help support them by law, whether he’s married to her or not.
•	75% of all married women work. 
•	50% earn as much or more than their husbands do.
•	40% of women are the main breadwinner in their marriages.



technovelist said:


> So if the woman can expect the man to keep supporting her even if he doesn't always feel like it, then the man should be able to expect the woman to have sex with him even if she doesn't always feel like it.


Yes that was the model when women had no choice but to marry and depend on a man for financial security. 
Even in a marriage where a man supports his wife and children and she’s a SAHM, she is working. She is taking care of the children whom he has as much responsibility for as he does. She is taking care of the house and other chores which are 50% his responsibility as well. The flaw in your way of thinking here is that he’s some poor chap supporting her and HER children. And she is bringing nothing of value to the marriage, relationship, family. They are on equal ground they are splitting the responsibilities 50/50. Sex is not something a woman does to pay back her husband. Nor is he buying sex from her. If a man feels that way, he needs to let his wife know so that she can pack her bags and leave.



technovelist said:


> Of course, since we now have no-fault divorce in every US state, anyone who no longer wants to keep up his or her side of this bargain is free to get a divorce.
> 
> 
> However, it doesn't seem very fair to me that if one party decides not to hold up their side of the bargain, that the defaulting party is still entitled to compensation as though the bargain were still in effect.


What compensation? Very few men or women get any alimony. So what’s the compensation? The only time this happens anymore is in really long term marriages where considerable wealth has been earned during the marriage. The marriage contract specifies how the accumulated assets will be split in case of a divorce. If a person does not want to live by the marriage contract, then don’t get married. It’s pretty simple. Or marry someone who earns equally … then there is not issue with this.



technovelist said:


> So whoever files for divorce, barring proven fault of the other party (adultery, physical abuse, or the like) should not expect to get anything from the other party, other than division of assets acquired during the marriage.
> 
> Child support is another matter for another thread.
> 
> In the absence of minor children, does anyone disagree with this analysis, and if so, why?


Nope, do not agree at all.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> That's true.
> 
> It's also true that there's a massive difference between being celibate and sharing a home with someone you love and desire who doesn't reciprocate.


Yes I know that. Since I lived it for years I am all too aware of what it's like to share a home with a husband who did not reciprocate that the love and desire I had for him. I have more than a clue.

I also know what it's like to have sex forced on me when it's not something I want at that time (not in a marriage). The thought of this makes me ill quite honestly.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That's beyond messed up - the forcing thing. 





EleGirl said:


> Yes I know that. Since I lived it for years I am all too aware of what it's like to share a home with a husband who did not reciprocate that the love and desire I had for him. I have more than a clue.
> 
> I also know what it's like to have sex forced on me when it's not something I want at that time (not in a marriage). The thought of this makes me ill quite honestly.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> What? I thought that the primary reason that men married is because they love their wife and that the primary reason men want sex with their wife is because that’s how they show love and feel love. Are you saying that this is not true?
> 
> Times have changed. Woman do not get married to be supported very often anymore.
> And marrying to support “HER” children. Guess what, they are “HIS” children too. He has to help support them by law, whether he’s married to her or not.
> ...


Ok, then according to your paradigm, why should anyone marry? There doesn't seem to be any advantage in it for either party.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

technovelist said:


> Ok, then according to your paradigm, why should anyone marry? There doesn't seem to be any advantage in it for either party.


Well if you've just swallowed the entirety of evo-psyche to explain human relationships to yourself, then I can understand why you are confused.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> The one we have scheduled to attend... $200 an hour.


Yes, they can be expensive. Ours was $185 an hour. Many will use a sliding scale based on income. I don't know if this is true - but I read somewhere that they want their clients to have a financial investment so they will work to not waste their money. And if you think about it - it's cheaper than divorce. There are no guarantees of success. And if you have a good counselor, the clients do all the work in finding the solutions to their problems. Ha ha ok, maybe not true, but it sure feels that way sometimes.

I know it is cost prohibitive for many. And that makes me sad. We would have been hard pressed to pay for one in our early marriage. Even when we did it, it was financially painful. But unfortunately, I do think many marriages absolutely Need professional help taylored to their specific issues and marital dynamics. 

Another less expensive option would be to seek help from a pastor or religious clergy - but even then, one should make sure they are accredited professionals. I have seen damage done by those who are not trained marital or sex therapists.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> MEM,
> 
> I very much respect your opinion, but it's hard to know. Perhaps he did feel it was starfish sex or nothing. I sometimes think your perception is skewed by your own situation.
> 
> ...


Your last paragraph - you may be right. I have thought about this a lot. My husband says he does not believe anything he did or said back then would have changed things. Most HDs here on TAM and other forums say the same about their situations. And many have even proved it to be true by trying everything under the sun with no success. So you may be absolutely right. However - in my marriage we will never know if something like that would have made a difference or not, because he never did anything like that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

technovelist said:


> Ok, then according to your paradigm, why should anyone marry? There doesn't seem to be any advantage in it for either party.


I think it's sad that you would ask this.... 

Why marry? 

Do not marry because you (generic you) need someone to pay your bills, or birth your kids and be your housekeeper. Do not marry simply for regular sex.

Marry because you have found someone who love, someone you want to spend your life with. Marry to have a partner in life who will share in all things. 

You can both earn livings. Sure only she can carry and birth a baby. But once the baby is there, you can both parent the child equally. Being raised in an intake biological family is the best for children. It a lot less stress on both parents if both parents work together to raise their children.

Marry because married people tend to be much stronger financially than single people.

Both married men and married women are healthier and happier than single people. Married people live a lot longer than single people. So marry for you health.

Marry to have passion in your life, to have love with someone who you have an intimate relationship with... I mean non-sexual intimacy and sexual intimacy. 

Marry because you love and want to be with the person you love.


The idea of marriage that you (technovelist) posted about is blah..... It's a contract for legal prostitution.. He marries to have regular sex and maybe children. She marries because she cannot support herself... he is basically paying her for sex. That's how you presented your image of marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The idea of marriage that you (technovelist) posted about is blah..... It's a contract for legal prostitution.. He marries to have regular sex and maybe children. She marries because she cannot support herself... he is basically paying her for sex. That's how you presented your image of marriage.


That's the entire evo-psyche view. Sex is to make babies, so get all those rules down because that's alllllll it is ever about. Ever. Ever ever ever. There is no reason anyone ever has sex except to make a baby. That's the entire foundation of the evo-psyche script. Man = baby batter and physical and financial support. Woman = give her body sexually in payment for this security. So sexy!

Women have to rent out their womb to a man so they can make and protect the babies together (entirely incapable of having and raising babies on their own, you see), and that's all this entire thing is about. Without this base reason to have sex and babies, there would be no need for marriage. And they lived happily ever after. The end!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> That's the entire evo-psyche view. Sex is to make babies, so get all those rules down because that's alllllll it is ever about. Ever. Ever ever ever. There is no reason anyone ever has sex except to make a baby. That's the entire foundation of the evo-psyche script. Man = baby batter and physical and financial support. Woman = give her body sexually in payment for this security. So sexy!
> 
> Women have to rent out their womb to a man so they can make and protect the babies together (entirely incapable of having and raising babies on their own, you see), and that's all this entire thing is about. Without this base reason to have sex and babies, there would be no need for marriage. And they lived happily ever after. The end!


Yikes... what a sad way to look at things... blah


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I think it's sad that you would ask this....
> 
> Why marry?
> 
> ...


This raises many more questions than it answers. For example:
*Why* do married people live longer than single people?
*Why* are married people stronger financially than single people?
*Why* is it better for children to be raised in a stable family?
How can you know you will even *have* a stable family when 50% of all marriages end in divorce?
*Why* do people have more intimacy when they are married? Is that even true, given the stories we read here, where many times intimacy drops off severely once people marry?
What can you do when married that you can't do if you aren't married?

Note: I am happily married. I have been the sole breadwinner for the vast majority of my marriage, and I am happy to support my wife so that she doesn't have to work; we have no children so that issue isn't relevant to us. But if she were to decide she didn't want to have sex with me on a regular basis anymore, we would have a very big problem.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

technovelist said:


> Ok, then according to your paradigm, why should anyone marry? There doesn't seem to be any advantage in it for either party.


We got married and remain married because we love each other very much. What that means in terms of what it means to be married has changed over the decades. But it has never been a quid pro quo for us. 

Neither of us needed or wanted (or need or want) a contractual agreement to provide either income or sexual services for each other. Either of us can earn and either of us can get sex pretty much whenever we want on the open market. 

What you cannot get from not being with someone day in and day out, fully engaged in loving each other, is having someone who knows you to the core wrap you in their arms when the hard times hit. To support you when you need the courage to do what needs to be done, even when it is hard. When my father suffered a debilitating trauma that wrecked his life, he was there for me. Holding me when I cried. Telling me it was ok to be hurt and sad, no need to be stoic. Driving me the hundreds of miles every other week to the rehab center. Caring for our children in my absence when I had to be away. When he decided he could not stand his job and wanted to be an entrepreneur, I was there for him. I said, we will tighten the belts, and I will earn the money. When he was down because the business did not take off right away, I was there telling him I knew he could do it because I know him. I know he has the passion and the talent to see it through.

The other night, he touched my face. He said "I love your crows feet". He has told me this before. He loves that they show that I laugh. And he is happy that he put so many of them there.

We marry for love. A good man is very worth loving. And when you love that kind of man, you will do anything to help him feel strong and whole and happy. And you never have to ask yourself if you want to have sex. You do. And even if you don't want to today, and he looks like he could really use it, it does not hurt you to take him into your body and look him in the eyes and see there someone who adores you too,


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Have you ever had sex with someone who you did not want to have sex with?
> 
> Do you, or have you, on a regular basis 'serviced' your wife (or anyone else) when you did not really want to be them sexually?


As a matter of fact, I have and I did. I was married to her. Whether she blew my skirt up or not, she was a human being with reasonable needs and I took on all the duties of husband when I said "I do". I don't expect anything from others that I'm not willing to expect of myself.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> We got married and remain married because we love each other very much. What that means in terms of what it means to be married has changed over the decades. But it has never been a quid pro quo for us.
> 
> Neither of us needed or wanted (or need or want) a contractual agreement to provide either income or sexual services for each other. Either of us can earn and either of us can get sex pretty much whenever we want on the open market.
> 
> ...


One doesn't torture or deprive someone he/she loves.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

technovelist said:


> So this doesn't apply to you.* I'd like to hear from people to whom it does apply, assuming there are any such here*.


I'm older fashioned and other than sharing a little more ROMANCE in your post.. I can't say what you said really bothered me..... we've always had a more Traditional marriage set up...it's what we both wanted & prayed we could swing... we have 6 kids so it was very helpful in raising them.. 

My Husband prefers to be the sole breadwinner.. though I've always had small jobs on the side to help supplement our income too, but he's always told me they were not needed....

Getting back to the whole "chattel thing"... which many blame the Bible for attitudes like this.. it's like anything we read, it can be abused in a manner that was never intended...(so I feel anyway).....

I look upon this scripture as very beautiful and how Myself and Husband feels.. I would be upset if he didn't.. to be honest! .... .. all of this hinges on how we treat each other, loving, honoring & cherishing , of course..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> The idea of marriage that you (technovelist) posted about is blah..... It's a contract for legal prostitution.. He marries to have regular sex and maybe children. She marries because she cannot support herself... he is basically paying her for sex. That's how you presented your image of marriage.


I feel some are reading too much into his post.. ... I read the same thing and Prostitution just doesn't come to my mind ...like at all.. Your post was really good too.... 



> *Elegirl said*: *Do not marry because you (generic you) need someone to pay your bills, or birth your kids and be your housekeeper*. Do not marry simply for regular sex.
> 
> *Marry because you have found someone who love, someone you want to spend your life with. Marry to have a partner in life who will share in all things*.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel some are reading too much into his post.. ... I read the same thing and Prostitution just doesn't come to my mind ...like at all.. Your post was really good too....
> 
> :smthumbup:



Maybe it is a matter of tone. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with a traditional marriage. While it is not one that we adopted, per se, I stayed home with the kids when we determined that was the best thing for the family. The thing is that your approach includes and involves the reality of love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing. If tech is interested in such things, he has not mentioned it. His equation is pretty stark. Men get married for steady sex. Women get married for provision. Why else would anyone get married. I don't think that is really how you envision your marriage regardless of what benefit each of you two bring to the practicality of the family.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is a distinct difference between food and sex.
> 
> People need food or they will die.


That is a good observation because it drives home the point that promises and agreements between people carry _a priori _assumptions not explicitly spelled out because they are so glaringly obvious that nobody should have to. 

In the hypothetical scenario involving food, it would be implicitly understood that our spouse needs to eat. To pretend that we were unaware of that fact simply because it was not explicitly spelled out for us would be a demonstration of bad faith. 

I agree that, "Need" and "Necessity" are not synonyms and in that respect, food and sex are not comparable, but again, the intent of the illustration was not analogy. It was simply one of several ways to illustrate the reality of concomitant obligation. --That promises and considerations other people make to us are not "free" in the sense that nothing whatsoever is required on our part.

This principle also manifests itself in contract law via the concepts of implied covenant and to a lesser degree, in religion via the philosophical difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. (Again, not drawing a direct comparison or claiming analogous relationship.)

When it comes to marriage, the promise of fidelity is not made in a vacuum. It is made with a prior understanding that is so glaringly obvious that it does not need to be spelled out.

The reason this came up is that Mem, in an effort to show a little empathy towards LD people proposed the following hypothetical question. 



MEM11363 said:


> If you truly love me, why do you WANT me to do something [sex] that I clearly dislike.


Without intending any disrespect towards Mem, I think this is counterproductive. Regardless of whether we like or dislike sex, asking our partner why they would want to have sex with us after they've promised to have sex with no one else would *not* be a sincere question. Quite the opposite because the feigned ignorance of a prior understanding so glaringly obvious that it did not need to be spelled out is exactly what feeds the lack of respect shown towards LD people in the first place. 



EleGirl said:


> If one spouse choses to ignore "cherish" and "love" and only pay attention to sex, then they are broken their marriage vows every bit as much as a person who willfully, out of selfishness withholds sex.


Yes. absolutely.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I knew from your first post - that your real screen name was SomebodySpecial. Now everyone else knows too. 




NobodySpecial said:


> We got married and remain married because we love each other very much. What that means in terms of what it means to be married has changed over the decades. But it has never been a quid pro quo for us.
> 
> Neither of us needed or wanted (or need or want) a contractual agreement to provide either income or sexual services for each other. Either of us can earn and either of us can get sex pretty much whenever we want on the open market.
> 
> ...


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> We got married and remain married because we love each other very much. What that means in terms of what it means to be married has changed over the decades. But it has never been a quid pro quo for us.
> 
> Neither of us needed or wanted (or need or want) a contractual agreement to provide either income or sexual services for each other. _Either of us can earn and either of us can get sex pretty much whenever we want on the open market. _
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have a wonderful partnership in your marriage, and I'm happy that it works for you.

Unfortunately, most marriages don't work out *that way*. And when they don't, one or both partners are often going to be very unhappy, as we have seen on this board (and in real life as well).

By the way, your husband is very fortunate to be able to get sex whenever he wanted to on the "open market". Most men, for most of their lives at least, can't get the time of day from most women, whereas almost no women have to suffer a decades-long drought of sex as singles. This is one of the ineradicable differences between men and women, and explains much of what I was referring to before as the "bargain of marriage".


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

technovelist said:


> It sounds like you have a wonderful partnership in your marriage, and I'm happy that it works for you.
> 
> Unfortunately, most marriages don't work out *that way*. And when they don't, one or both partners are often going to be very unhappy, as we have seen on this board (and in real life as well).
> 
> By the way, your husband is very fortunate to be able to get sex whenever he wanted to on the "open market". Most men, for most of their lives at least, can't get the time of day from most women, whereas almost no women have to suffer a decades-long drought of sex as singles. This is one of the ineradicable differences between men and women, and explains much of what I was referring to before as the "bargain of marriage".


I think men sometimes see sexual lives as women as being so easy breezy because from their perspective women can get so easily what men see as the goal of dating.

Women also have a lot of dysfunction in single dating life. They might not suffer decades long drought of sex as singles, but they may suffer decades long drought of that sex being something positive in their life and not something that is a source of pain. 

That's not all women's experiences, but the grass is not greener on the other side.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is a matter of tone. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with a traditional marriage. While it is not one that we adopted, per se, I stayed home with the kids when we determined that was the best thing for the family. The thing is that your approach includes and involves the reality of love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing. If tech is interested in such things, he has not mentioned it. His equation is pretty stark. Men get married for steady sex. Women get married for provision. Why else would anyone get married. I don't think that is really how you envision your marriage regardless of what benefit each of you two bring to the practicality of the family.


We do have love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing, and those are invaluable.

But all of those things without the necessities I mentioned before would not make a successful marriage, in my opinion.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is a matter of tone. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with a traditional marriage. While it is not one that we adopted, per se, I stayed home with the kids when we determined that was the best thing for the family. The thing is that your approach includes and involves the reality of love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing. If tech is interested in such things, he has not mentioned it.* His equation is pretty stark. *Men get married for steady sex. Women get married for provision. Why else would anyone get married. I don't think that is really how you envision your marriage regardless of what benefit each of you two bring to the practicality of the family.


I think that comes from placing an ideology onto the world instead of drawing out conclusions based on actual experience of couples. 

We men and women are not so different if you pull out to the larger picture. We are both a part of the human species, one of the most highly intelligent and social species. We have a lot of the same needs and drives. Some differences occur due to biology and culture. 

I am going to be married to a man who makes half as much money as I do and I have no plans to have children. I am not getting married to him for provisions. He is infertile. He is not getting married to me so that I may carry his offspring. 

But we are both getting married for sex


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

technovelist said:


> We do have love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing, and those are invaluable.
> 
> But all of those things without the necessities I mentioned before would not make a successful marriage, in my opinion.


Some people have different definitions of what makes a successful marriage. Yours may be for practicality. I know for me, mine has less to do with the traditional practicalities but because I find the commitment to one person to be worth it in itself. I have no plans to have children or take a lower paying job and stay at home.

It does not mean your way of marriage is wrong. But neither does that mean other marriages cannot exist in a different form.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I think men sometimes see sexual lives as women as being so easy breezy because from their perspective women can get so easily what men see as the goal of dating.
> 
> Women also have a lot of dysfunction in single dating life. They might not suffer decades long drought of sex as singles, but they may suffer decades long drought of that sex being something positive in their life and not something that is a source of pain.
> 
> That's not all women's experiences, but the grass is not greener on the other side.


Of course I'm not claiming that all women are happy as larks with their sex lives. But it is still true that single women who are of even moderate attractiveness can have sex pretty much whenever they want it, which is true for very few men.

This is analogous to the LD/HD divide, in that it is very hard for women to understand the scarcity of sex for most men, just as it is very hard for LDs to understand the importance of sex to HDs.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Of course I'm not claiming that all women are happy as larks with their sex lives. But it is still true that single women who are of even moderate attractiveness can have sex pretty much whenever they want it, which is true for very few men.
> 
> This is analogous to the LD/HD divide, in that it is very hard for women to understand the scarcity of sex for most men, just as it is very hard for LDs to understand the importance of sex to HDs.


I don't argue that that is true. I know I could have sex right now if I wanted to.

But that may not be what women are looking for. Certainly some women are and I am happy for them that they can get what they want so easily.

But for a man to say that women have it so easy because they do not have a scarcity for sex, he is also not understanding a more traditional female perspective. For the majority of women, that is not what they want. They are facing a scarcity of commitment. Don't men know how easy it would be for them right now to find a nice girl who is committed to him?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is what troubles me about the popularity of 'sex rank'.

The concept is great for - hookup sites.

There was a point in our marriage where I could have gone out on the 'market' and 'purchased' a younger/hotter wife. 

Ain't capitalism grand. 

To do that however I was going to have to accept my new role. As a 'john'. Sure - I'd have an exclusive relationship - as long as I could shell out the bucks at an acceptable rate. 

And this exchange - the nicer packaging - would come at the expense of all the core stuff. Because by definition - if you can buy someone - on the inside they have nothing in common with M2. 







NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is a matter of tone. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with a traditional marriage. While it is not one that we adopted, per se, I stayed home with the kids when we determined that was the best thing for the family. The thing is that your approach includes and involves the reality of love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing. If tech is interested in such things, he has not mentioned it. His equation is pretty stark. Men get married for steady sex. Women get married for provision. Why else would anyone get married. I don't think that is really how you envision your marriage regardless of what benefit each of you two bring to the practicality of the family.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> This is what troubles me about the popularity of 'sex rank'.
> 
> The concept is great for - hookup sites.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you. I think the sex ranking makes complete sense and is a great tool for hooking up if that is the aim.

But it feels out of place when that paradigm is shoved onto a marriage frame work.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I don't argue that that is true. I know I could have sex right now if I wanted to.
> 
> But that may not be what women are looking for. Certainly some women are and I am happy for them that they can get what they want so easily.
> 
> But for a man to say that women have it so easy because they do not have a scarcity for sex, he is also not understanding a more traditional female perspective. For the majority of women, that is not what they want. They are facing a scarcity of commitment. Don't men know how easy it would be for them right now to find a nice girl who is committed to him?


I didn't say it was easy for women to get commitment. I know that what most women have trouble getting is commitment and what most men have trouble getting is sex.

However, this is quite in line with my post about marriage, which is that the man provides commitment, in the form of support, for sex, in the form of sex.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I completely agree with you. I think the sex ranking makes complete sense and is a great tool for hooking up if that is the aim.
> 
> But it feels out of place when that paradigm is shoved onto a marriage frame work.


Sex ranking has a different significance in marriage. Assuming monogamy, the application in marriage is to keep things humming along (no pun intended) rather than as a means to hook up.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

technovelist said:


> I didn't say it was easy for women to get commitment. I know that what most women have trouble getting is commitment and what most men have trouble getting is sex.
> 
> However, this is quite in line with my post about marriage, which is that the man provides commitment, in the form of support, for sex, in the form of sex.


I disagree still....and I will try to explain why.

I still have a sexuality. An innate need for sex. I NEED to have sex just as much as a man does. As a more stereotypical minded female, I want that in a relationship. I am getting married to fulfill that need. I am also getting married for support.

My man is getting married to me because he also has a need to have sex. He also has a need to be supported.

One without the other would leave us both unfulfilled. If my fiance does not fulfill both my sexual and support need, and if I do not fulfill the support/sex need of him, it is not going to be a good marriage.

I don't need my fiance to provide for me. I am doing that better than I probably would do without him. He is an added expense as I am the primary breadwinner. 


I'm not explaining myself.

Basically, it comes down to that we are a mix of differing needs. There is not one primary reason to get married. There are so many different facets to getting married. For some people, I can imagine there is only one reason. I have friends in arranged marriage. There truly is just one reason. But in love marriages, there is a whole range. 

I don't think marriage is practical for survival anymore. If we were talking about a couple decades back, yes. But now women can be primary breadwinners and husbands can stay at home. Some people may think that is beta bull****, but on a survival level, we don't need traditional marriage. 

Marriage can be defined and gone into for many different reasons now.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Sex ranking has a different significance in marriage. Assuming monogamy, the application in marriage is to keep things humming along (no pun intended) rather than as a means to hook up.


I think there are more efficient ways to keep the marriage humming along such as Marriage Busters and the 5 Love Languages. As well as keeping in physical shape and having frequent lovemaking.

I think sex ranking is a better tool for hooking up. But it is still a tool. If it works to help a marriage, than that tool is efficient for that marriage.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is what troubles me about the popularity of 'sex rank'.
> 
> The concept is great for - hookup sites.
> 
> ...


I don't think a lot of people believe in love. They think of love as a fairy tale. So they seek something they consider more attainable.

For ME, the "package" is not just a mega hottie (though DH is that for me!). I don't even WANT that. I want a fully fledged relationship of fun, companionship, laughter, crazy bootie, sharing joy, sharing children. THAT is the package.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

technovelist said:


> I didn't say it was easy for women to get commitment. I know that what most women have trouble getting is commitment and what most men have trouble getting is sex.
> 
> However, this is quite in line with my post about marriage, which is that the man provides commitment, in the form of support, for sex, in the form of sex.


I guess if that is the life you choose, that is your choice. It behooves you to be very certain that your spouse agrees with that choice!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess if that is the life you choose, that is your choice. It behooves you to be very certain that your spouse agrees with that choice!


Yes, of course.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

technovelist said:


> Yes, of course.


I got the impression that that was not working all that well for you. My bad.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening EleGirl
Nothing works as a comparison for sex. People keep trying and keep failing - I think because sex means such different things to different people. (probably the root cause of all this disagreement).

I agree that having sex with someone who does not "cherish and love" you is not expected. But - in some (many?) of these relationships the HD person DOES cherish and love, does do everything in their power for the LD partner. In those situations I think a case can be made for the LD partner not upholding their vows.





EleGirl said:


> There is a distinct difference between food and sex.
> 
> People need food or they will die.
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

technovelist said:


> It sounds like you have a wonderful partnership in your marriage, and I'm happy that it works for you.
> 
> Unfortunately, most marriages don't *work out* that way.


It did not "work out" that way. That is what we chose when we got married. And that is what we have striven for ever since with a clear understanding that anything less was not going to be maintainable long term.

I mean if life happens to you as it "works out" then that may be good for you.




> And when they don't, one or both partners are often going to be very unhappy, as we have seen on this board (and in real life as well).
> 
> By the way, your husband is very fortunate to be able to get sex whenever he wanted to on the "open market". Most men, for most of their lives at least, can't get the time of day from most women,


So you tell yourself. What does that translate to? You need to hobble yourself with a ball and chain in order to get any? You can see why that would not be appealing. And it really doesn't sound like it is working all that well for you either.

What is a person to do?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

^^ Anyway you asked why get married. I answered. I wonder what your wife would say if she knew that you married her because you couldn't get it elsewhere and were willing to trade income for it for the rest of your life.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Have you ever had sex with someone who you did not want to have sex with?


I think there is a big difference between having sex when you're not really in the mood and having sex forced upon you. The first I see as completely fine. There have been a few times where I was not into it for what ever reason, but we had sex anyways because I want to make my husband happy. The latter is never okay and like you, I've had that happen(not by my husband).


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> It* did not "work out" that way. That is what we chose when we got married. And that is what we have striven for ever since with a clear understanding that anything less was not going to be maintainable long term.
> *
> I mean if life happens to you as it "works out" then that may be good for you.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that is how marriages work out.

Two people coming together and agreeing on a long term commitment on shared values. 

Those shared values might be "Man gets sex, women gets money". (And I am not against this at all)

But that is not the only way, and it talks down a bit to others when you continue to claim that that is the true reason even if they disagree. We all have practicalities in life. All my life does come down to the need to eat and survive each and every day. But that does not mean that there is no more meaning to life or marriage than that.



> ^^ Anyway you asked why get married. I answered. I wonder what your wife would say if she knew that you married her because you couldn't get it elsewhere and were willing to trade income for it for the rest of your life.


I still agree that the practical marriage is a viable marriage, but I do think the question if both people view it the exact way is important. Was this agreed on and talked about as the main driver for both people going into the marriage?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is a matter of tone. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with a traditional marriage. While it is not one that we adopted, per se, I stayed home with the kids when we determined that was the best thing for the family. The thing is that your approach includes and involves* the reality of love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing*. If tech is interested in such things, he has not mentioned it. His equation is pretty stark. Men get married for steady sex. Women get married for provision. Why else would anyone get married. I don't think that is really how you envision your marriage regardless of what benefit each of you two bring to the practicality of the family.


Yes of course.. but I can't deny that I cared a great deal for *security* .. I wanted that on many levels...faithfulness, someone there for me...to hold me at night.. I wanted to get married.. I wanted someone to depend on..in saying this by no means = I didn't plan to do my part in being a help mate to a good man....I did want a family.. and I can understand that a man has pride having his own children & wanting his NAME to live on also.. I think this is well & good. 

And although many have differing opinions on this.. I am in the camp that feels "generally speaking" the vast majority of men have higher sex drives over women.. (I also agree with technovelist when he says women can get sex EASY -but for many men...it doesn't come THAT EASY.... I am not going to dismiss others experiences.

The penis appears to be many men's 1st love.. my H is not any sort of stud but he's told me he whacked it up to 5 times a day when he was younger!! I was like "ddammmmmnnnn - that's crazy!"... .. *Guys LOVE SEX *!! They are VERY visual & for many this is their primary way of feeling loved / honored by a woman... 

Although his post didn't bring any of the "mushy"/ emotional aspects that ARE DEARLY important to me (even my husband for that matter).... *the practical *of what he was saying. I could relate to....is all.. 

But yeah... All the elements you mention here.. *vastly important* in the equation..


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I got the impression that that was not working all that well for you. My bad.


It is working for me, but it requires vigilance on my part to make sure it continues to work.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I still agree that the practical marriage is a viable marriage, but I do think the question if both people view it the exact way is important. Was this agreed on and talked about as the main driver for both people going into the marriage?


That is the nature of my speculation. If it was, then it is tough to imagine blatant reneging. But also there would be a pretty clear line of argument toward enforcement. Not my cup of tea. But if it WERE in fact agreed upon, the solution is pretty straight forward. Pay up, deadbeat.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> ^^ Anyway you asked why get married. I answered. I wonder what your wife would say if she knew that you married her because you couldn't get it elsewhere and were willing to trade income for it for the rest of your life.


That's not why I married her. I have been able to get it elsewhere in the past, and probably still could, although of course I haven't been on the market since we have been married. However, as I've already mentioned, if she decided without a *very* good reason to stop having sex with me on a regular basis, we would have a very big problem.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

technovelist said:


> It is working for me, but it requires vigilance on my part to make sure it continues to work.


As long as it is working for the both of you! As long as you assert that is what *your* marriage is vs what *marriage* is, who is to argue with you?


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes of course.. but I can't deny that I cared a great deal for *security* .. I wanted that on many levels...faithfulness, someone there for me...to hold me at night.. I wanted to get married.. I wanted someone to depend on..in saying this by no means = I didn't plan to do my part in being a help mate to a good man....I did want a family.. and I can understand that a man has pride having his own children & wanting his NAME to live on also.. I think this is well & good.
> 
> And although many have differing opinions on this..  I am in the camp that feels "generally speaking" the vast majority of men have higher sex drives over women.. (I also agree with technovelist when he says women can get sex EASY -but for many men...it doesn't come THAT EASY.... I am not going to dismiss others experiences.
> 
> ...


Guys want security too though. It may not look like the traditional setup, but there is a security to raising kids with one woman. There is a security to building a financial future together with another person and retiring. There is a security to having someone else there to fulfill your emotional needs through the ups and downs of life. 

I do not disagree at all that in general there are biological/cultural differences. But I think we tend to hardline and separate sex into only a male desire and security only a female desire. We both have sexual and security desires. We tend to express them differently but that does not mean that they are both not real and both not important to our well-being.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *technovelist said*: Of course I'm not claiming that all women are happy as larks with their sex lives. *But it is still true that single women who are of even moderate attractiveness can have sex pretty much whenever they want it, which is true for very few men.
> 
> This is analogous to the LD/HD divide, in that it is very hard for women to understand the scarcity of sex for most men, just as it is very hard for LDs to understand the importance of sex to HDs*.





Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I don't argue that that is true. I know I could have sex right now if I wanted to.
> 
> But that may not be what women are looking for. Certainly some women are and I am happy for them that they can get what they want so easily.
> 
> But for a man to say that women have it so easy because they do not have a scarcity for sex, *he is also not understanding a more traditional female perspective. For the majority of women, that is not what they want. They are facing a scarcity of commitment. Don't men know how easy it would be for them right now to find a nice girl who is committed to him?*


I can see truth/ reality in both of these posts..reflective of many's experiences.. 



> *Guys want security too though. It may not look like the traditional setup, but there is a security to raising kids with one woman. There is a security to building a financial future together with another person and retiring. There is a security to having someone else there to fulfill your emotional needs through the ups and downs of life.*


 I tend to feel the more traditional /family oriented men *care more* about these things..... you said it yourself..speaking of the "scarcity of commitment" in your above post..


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is a matter of tone. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with a traditional marriage. While it is not one that we adopted, per se, I stayed home with the kids when we determined that was the best thing for the family. The thing is that your approach includes and involves the reality of love, romance, mutual understanding, compassion and sharing. If tech is interested in such things, he has not mentioned it. His equation is pretty stark. Men get married for steady sex. Women get married for provision. Why else would anyone get married. I don't think that is really how you envision your marriage regardless of what benefit each of you two bring to the practicality of the family.


There is no romance, compassion, mutual understanding, or sharing when you are deliberately depriving someone of basic human needs. It is beyond ridiculous to assume someone would respond to prolonged neglect with gratefulness and romance. If I wish for someone to regard me in loving terms, I must treat them lovingly, and at the very least, decently. No one asked for sexual needs and nobody can switch their's off just because their parent has misplaced their genitals. Whether I feel hunger or not, my spouse still needs to eat. Whether I feel cold or not, if she's shivering, I get her a coat. I take her to the doctor when she's feeling ill, not when I feel like going to a doctor. 
There isn't a soul on this forum who would give an adult a pass for failing to feed, bathe, or adequately clothe their children because they just didn't feel like doing so. You don't get a pass at your job for not doing the job you were hired to do just because you don't really feel like it. Check your wedding vows again. Nothing in those vows said "if I happen to feel like it." That's the whole idea of vows. That's why we make commitments, so we will continue to do what we promised on those days where we really don't feel like it. I can just grab some random woman off the street and rely that she will do as she pleases. That's not a commitment. When you signed your mortgage contract, did it mention that you could send in whatever you felt like, whenever you wanted, if you just happened to feel like it? Why would everyone else on earth get more loyalty than we'd give the only person on earth we vowed to be loyal to?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Guys want security too though. It may not look like the traditional setup, but there is a security to raising kids with one woman. There is a security to building a financial future together with another person and retiring. There is a security to having someone else there to fulfill your emotional needs through the ups and downs of life.
> 
> I do not disagree at all that in general there are biological/cultural differences. But I think we tend to hardline and separate sex into only a male desire and security only a female desire. We both have sexual and security desires. We tend to express them differently but that does not mean that they are both not real and both not important to our well-being.


I have never in my entire life received anything resembling security from a woman. Maybe there are a handful of men who have found some. In my experience, it has been a matter of very specific performance expected from me (during and after the marriage) in exchange for "whatever the hell I feel like giving/doing on any particular day".


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I have never in my entire life received anything resembling security from a woman. Maybe there are a handful of men who have found some. In my experience, it has been a matter of very specific performance expected from me (during and after the marriage) in exchange for "whatever the hell I feel like giving/doing on any particular day".


See Briffault's Law for the definitive statement of this:

"The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place. — Robert Briffault, The Mothers, Vol. I, p. 191"

Robert Briffault - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

technovelist said:


> I know that what most women have trouble getting is commitment and what most men have trouble getting is sex.


:scratchhead:

Not sure who you are hanging around with.

Men I know do not have "trouble getting sex" and women I know do not have "trouble getting commitment". In fact, both are rather easy and get handed out all the time.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I have never in my entire life received anything resembling security from a woman. Maybe there are a handful of men who have found some. In my experience, it has been a matter of very specific performance expected from me (during and after the marriage) in exchange for "whatever the hell I feel like giving/doing on any particular day".


I think I'm finally starting to understand you. Just in this paragraph alone, your wife doesn't sound like a very kind or supportive person. She sounds like a taker. Any LD issues in your marriage are probably a symptom of a greater problem which is that she is not a good marriage partner overall.

Are you focusing on only the sexual drought instead of the overall picture? Is your thinking that the rest of her selfish nature would be more endurable if only your sexual needs were satisfied?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Not sure who you are hanging around with.
> 
> Men I know do not have "trouble getting sex" and women I know do not have "trouble getting commitment". In fact, both are rather easy and get handed out all the time.


You have very unusual acquaintances then. More power to you!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I think I'm finally starting to understand you. Just in this paragraph alone, your wife doesn't sound like a very kind or supportive person. She sounds like a taker. Any LD issues in your marriage are probably a symptom of a greater problem which is that she is not a good marriage partner overall.
> 
> Are you focusing on only the sexual drought instead of the overall picture? Is your thinking that the rest of her selfish nature would be more endurable if only your sexual needs were satisfied?


In the words of Mary Poppins, "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down; in a most delightful way."


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I think I'm finally starting to understand you. Just in this paragraph alone, your wife doesn't sound like a very kind or supportive person. She sounds like a taker. Any LD issues in your marriage are probably a symptom of a greater problem which is that she is not a good marriage partner overall.
> 
> Are you focusing on only the sexual drought instead of the overall picture? Is your thinking that the rest of her selfish nature would be more endurable if only your sexual needs were satisfied?


Not my first relationship, so my current views were not formed by my current wife. 

#1. secretly ran off with another guy. We'd never even had an argument.
#2. had numerous affairs, left me AND the kids, including one child that wasn't even mine. Ordered to pay child support, never paid a dime. Admitted that she only married me because she thought I had money.
#3. Overbearing narcissist (with an actual diagnosis). Chronic overspender. Chronically underemployed (kept getting fired). She said her life goal was to be a widow with a pension. Lovely person.
#4. Current wife, an angel compared to her predecessors.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

If I had a quarter for every time someone told me how lucky I am that M2 is so ... Loving ... Giving ... etc.

Those comments are true, and also woefully incomplete. 

During our first 2 years we created the 'template'. If you had asked M2 for an assessment of me at that point she would have said:
- Totally committed, loyal, loving, fair
- VERY high drive
- Even higher level of self control - the big head is ALWAYS in charge
- And while he feels overly entitled to sex when I'm healthy - his sex drive instantly flips off and stays off when I'm in emotional or physical distress. He goes into this asexual nurse maid mode. 





CopperTop said:


> MEM,
> 
> I very much respect your opinion, but it's hard to know. Perhaps he did feel it was starfish sex or nothing. I sometimes think your perception is skewed by your own situation.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oco,
I totally get the theme of reciprocity. 

And in general it's a nice part of human nature. 

Before we got engaged - we had 'the talk' where I shared my viewpoint: 

Everyone says marriage is for life. I MEAN it. Everyone promises to forsake - I'm inherently wired for monogamy. That part of things is great - it's your responsibility for it to stay a priority. Monogamy is every bit as much a responsibility as a commitment. You good with that? 

And she was. Well maybe 'good' is the wrong word. She accepted it. 

The most positive side effect of that conversation was that M2 was totally unfiltered about everything that directly or indirectly impacted our sex life. Which, at the end of the day, was almost everything. 

There was a point, maybe a year later where the marriage was trending towards continuous conflict. We had moved away from our friends and family - for my job. It was super hard on M2. 

To say she was being unkind - would be an understatement. So I took a job running a 2 year project. And for two straight years was only home on weekends and vacations. And we had minimal conflict during that time. 

At the end of that project she asked me to come home full time and promised WE would get along. So I came home. And it was good. 






ocotillo said:


> That is a good observation because it drives home the point that promises and agreements between people carry _a priori _assumptions not explicitly spelled out because they are so glaringly obvious that nobody should have to.
> 
> In the hypothetical scenario involving food, it would be implicitly understood that our spouse needs to eat. To pretend that we were unaware of that fact simply because it was not explicitly spelled out for us would be a demonstration of bad faith.
> 
> ...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Personal said:


> Perhaps you're pursuing the wrong women.


If mice were more interested in physics than in cheese, fewer of them would get trapped. Stuff a load of evil or crazy into a tight pair of jeans and just about any man is going to fall for it. I'm certainly not the first.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> There is no romance, compassion, mutual understanding, or sharing when you are deliberately depriving someone of basic human needs. It is beyond ridiculous to assume someone would respond to prolonged neglect with gratefulness and romance. If I wish for someone to regard me in loving terms, I must treat them lovingly, and at the very least, decently. No one asked for sexual needs and nobody can switch their's off just because their parent has misplaced their genitals. Whether I feel hunger or not, my spouse still needs to eat. Whether I feel cold or not, if she's shivering, I get her a coat. I take her to the doctor when she's feeling ill, not when I feel like going to a doctor.
> There isn't a soul on this forum who would give an adult a pass for failing to feed, bathe, or adequately clothe their children because they just didn't feel like doing so. You don't get a pass at your job for not doing the job you were hired to do just because you don't really feel like it. Check your wedding vows again. Nothing in those vows said "if I happen to feel like it." That's the whole idea of vows. That's why we make commitments, so we will continue to do what we promised on those days where we really don't feel like it. I can just grab some random woman off the street and rely that she will do as she pleases. That's not a commitment. When you signed your mortgage contract, did it mention that you could send in whatever you felt like, whenever you wanted, if you just happened to feel like it? Why would everyone else on earth get more loyalty than we'd give the only person on earth we vowed to be loyal to?



The fact someone made a vow does not mean they will keep it.
Even if someone consciously wants to feel something in particular toward another, in my experience there is no guarantee that feeling will happen; one does not will feelings into existence. One may not like how his or her partner feels or doesn't feel about about something. Ultimately, his or her partner feels what he or she feels in the moment.

A person can choose to do a broad spectrum of things they are not really interested in doing, even if in other contexts the person would choose differently. Which choice is made depends on many things, including character, the value trade-offs, mood, and health. One may not like the choices his or her spouse makes at any given moment. But, ultimately, one person cannot force another to take a particular action.


So, when one's partner breaks a vow, or stops being loving, or starts being indifferent towards you, or becomes abusive, or changes in one or ten or a hundred of the many ways possible -- such that you feel let down, cheated, perhaps even abused -- what can you do?

You can get angry, you can grieve, you can put energy into building yourself, you can search for solutions, you can try to get your partner to wake up and give a damn. You can try to detach. You can do many things -- and some might help, or one might, or none will. Unless physical force is being used to keep you there, then, one choice is to leave. Leaving may have consequences you won't like.

Pointing out the injustice of it all, pointing fingers and trying to illuminate the same transgression you see -- over and over and over with people who see it as you do or see it quite differently, but clearly want to talk about other parts of the picture -- seems only to draw energy away from the search solutions.

Would you agree that you are repeatedly trying to argue a point that several others here, including the OP, do not want to discuss on this thread? Do you agree what you repeatedly bring up here has nothing at all to do with the stated topic of this thread? If so, do you feel entitled to do that, considering the terms on which the provider of this forum has offered you to participate?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> If mice were more interested in physics than in cheese, fewer of them would get trapped. Stuff a load of evil or crazy into a tight pair of jeans and just about any man is going to fall for it. I'm certainly not the first.


While a mouse can't, after the first few painful snaps, a man ought to start thinking with his brain instead of his ****.

You may want to start analyzing why you continually pick women for their hotness and not for their compatibility in a relationship.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> While a mouse can't, after the first few painful snaps, a man ought to start thinking with his brain instead of his ****.
> 
> You may want to start analyzing why you continually pick women for their hotness and not for their compatibility in a relationship.


By all means pick hot women. Just don't MARRY crazy ones.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Personal said:


> That's been my experience as well and I don't think my friends are particularly unusual either.


Interestingly, I'm trying to find resources explaining involuntary celibacy (incel) and for some reason even Wikipedia doesn't have a page about it. They do have one about voluntary celibacy, as in the priesthood, but I guess incel is so politically-incorrect that even Wikipedia won't discuss it.

However, it is definitely a "thing", affecting almost entirely men rather than women, although of course there are women so unattractive that they would fall into this category as well.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The penis appears to be many men's 1st love.. my H is not any sort of stud but he's told me he whacked it up to 5 times a day when he was younger!! I was like "ddammmmmnnnn - that's crazy!"... .. *Guys LOVE SEX *!! They are VERY visual & for many this is their primary way of feeling loved / honored by a woman.


Ugh, can we just kill that stereotype that "all guys 'love' sex". It's annoying to hear it over and over again, when it's not true. Both men and women can make a relationship sexless. There are women and men who just are not into sex, for one reason or another. One sex/gender is not more sexual than the other, even though society wants us to think differently. 



technovelist said:


> Interestingly, I'm trying to find resources explaining involuntary celibacy (incel) and for some reason even Wikipedia doesn't have a page about it. They do have one about voluntary celibacy, as in the priesthood, but I guess incel is so politically-incorrect that even Wikipedia won't discuss it.


Except that many priest are not even celibate. There are many children fathered by priests that the church pays for, and that information is kept hidden from the public. I have family that works for the church, so I hear a lot of the behind the scenes info. Just had to throw that out there.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> Ugh, can we just kill that stereotype that "all guys 'love' sex". It's annoying to hear it over and over again, when it's not true. Both men and women can make a relationship sexless. There are women and men who just are not into sex, for one reason or another. One sex/gender is not more sexual than the other, even though society wants us to think differently.


Yes and no. The numbers from the porn and sex trade industries indicate that men are much more willing to pay for sex than women. Pretty strong evidence that, ON AVERAGE, more men want more sex than women do.

But averages mask huge differences within the populations. So there are plenty of men who don't want much sex. And plenty of women who do. And plenty of couples where the woman wants more than the man does.

But all of those things can be true even the bell curve of male sexual desire is slightly to the right of the female bell curve.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes and no. The numbers from the porn and sex trade industries indicate that men are much more willing to pay for sex than women. Pretty strong evidence that, ON AVERAGE, more men want more sex than women do.
> 
> That doesn't mean men want it more than women, it just means that it is more accepted for men to act that way(porn, paying for sex). It's a society issue. A woman is called a slvt for wanting sex a lot, while the guy gets high fives.
> 
> ...


That curve for men and women is basically the same.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

This....



Anonymous07 said:


> That curve for men and women is basically the same.


And this...



Faithful Wife said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Not sure who you are hanging around with.
> 
> Men I know do not have "trouble getting sex" and women I know do not have "trouble getting commitment". In fact, both are rather easy and get handed out all the time.


... is why I'm certain that discussion isn't going to accomplish anything.

Ask any 100 guys if they have trouble getting all the sex they want. 

Ask any 100 women if they have trouble getting commitment from men.

Reverse the questions. Compare to the above quotes.

Then review the popular culture. Is it full of women complaining about not getting enough sex?, men not being able to find women that are willing to commit?

And.... what, exactly, are the odds that different genders with different experiences over thousands of years would end up with EXACTLY the same needs and desires?

In the face of all of that, Anon7 and FW tell us that things aren't what we perceive them to be. 

If we can't agree on basic assumptions, then there's really no purpose in discussing it is there?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> This....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's worse than that, because these aren't even assumptions; they're facts, that no one seriously disputes who has taken even the slightest effort to find out or even observe on their own.

The only explanation for such a discrepancy is the "apex fallacy", wherein the experience of attractive men who have their pick of women is extrapolated to all men, most of whom have no success with women at all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tech,

I'm not into being politically correct. That said, your post struck a nerve. It sort of implies that:
- If men are InCel it's mainly a choice of their female partners 
- If women are InCel it's because they are ugly 






technovelist said:


> Interestingly, I'm trying to find resources explaining involuntary celibacy (incel) and for some reason even Wikipedia doesn't have a page about it. They do have one about voluntary celibacy, as in the priesthood, but I guess incel is so politically-incorrect that even Wikipedia won't discuss it.
> 
> However, it is definitely a "thing", affecting almost entirely men rather than women, although of course there are women so unattractive that they would fall into this category as well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Thank you mem!!!!


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not HD or LD. I don't have sex because Joe is an ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tech,
> 
> I'm not into being politically correct. That said, your post struck a nerve. It sort of implies that:
> - If men are InCel it's mainly a choice of their female partners
> - If women are InCel it's because they are ugly


If men are InCel, it's because they cannot find a female partner.
If women are InCel, it's because they cannot find a male partner.
So far, the situation is symmetrical.

What is not symmetrical is the minimum acceptable standard for a partner. Most men find most women acceptable as sex partners, so there are very few female InCels. However, most women find most men *un*acceptable as sex partners, so there are quite a few male InCels, and many other men who have long stretches of being InCel punctuated by rare episodes of having a sexual partner.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TN,

This forum is named:
Sex in marriage (though we include anyone in a LTR)
AND 
the entire thread is focused on low sex/sexless marriages/LTR's

So inside two explicit layers of identical context, you say something the average member of TAM would find both shallow and sexist. And when challenged you claim an entirely different (deep sigh - but still offensive) context. If this is your debating style at home it isn't creating trust, respect or better communication. 

If you wish to context switch to include unpaired folks or to exclusively address them:
- you ought to use a different forum within TAM
OR
- in this forum - at minimum you need to explicitly state that you are now talking about folks who are 'unpaired', or all folks - paired and unpaired

As for your comments regarding attractiveness - there is a site I once linked to in a post - that breaks down what women respond to in a man. It's brilliant. Link below.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/205521-genuine-gold-mine.html







technovelist said:


> If men are InCel, it's because they cannot find a female partner.
> If women are InCel, it's because they cannot find a male partner.
> So far, the situation is symmetrical.
> 
> What is not symmetrical is the minimum acceptable standard for a partner. Most men find most women acceptable as sex partners, so there are very few female InCels. However, most women find most men *un*acceptable as sex partners, so there are quite a few male InCels, and many other men who have long stretches of being InCel punctuated by rare episodes of having a sexual partner.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> TN,
> 
> This forum is named:
> Sex in marriage (though we include anyone in a LTR)
> ...


You are right, I did get off-topic for this forum. I was referring to unpaired persons, not those in relationships.

I apologize for derailing the discussion.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Personal said:


> Change your mind and the sex will follow.
> 
> Seriously if you think you can't get any you won't.
> 
> ...


You are certainly right that an abundance mentality will produce much better results on the whole than a mentality of scarcity.

And of course there are exceptions to any generality; in fact I believe I have mentioned that in this connection.

For example, I personally have had relatively good success with women in my life, and am now married to a woman of high quality all around, not merely in the realm of attractiveness.

In any event, as mem pointed out, this is off-topic in this thread, so I won't continue the derail further.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anonymous07 said:


> *Ugh, can we just kill that stereotype that "all guys 'love' sex". It's annoying to hear it over and over again, when it's not true. Both men and women can make a relationship sexless. There are women and men who just are not into sex, for one reason or another. One sex/gender is not more sexual than the other, even though society wants us to think differently.*


 Not trying to intentionally stereotype here.. just speaking out of my own experience... using my H as an example... and so much of what I have read here in others stories, in books written by sex therapists, countless articles .. "Passionate Marriage" stands out to me -explaining how husbands feel loved through sex primarily... 

I feel I have come a long way in "getting this" and regret NOT getting it.. so I am not going to just blow all this to the wind .. my own experience tells me MY MAN had a HIGHER sex drive over me for 19 yrs of our marriage ...(I count as a statistic, don't I?).....If I started rattling all my friends off. I can assure you .. Far more of their husbands are frustrated over them in this area also.. but that's in my own little circle , true. We all speak out of our own circles.. and by what we read that resonates with us... 

Obviously there are men with lower drives.. Curious wife's story comes to mind.. very ... 

My position is laid out in this article.. 

Who Wants Sex More, Men or Women? 



> Trina, I agree that many women have equal or stronger sex drives than us men, but many do not. Here’s the proof.* Research shows that 30 percent of women suffer from lack of desire.* In fact, it’s the number one reason you chicks aren’t getting busy in the bedroom.* By the way, only 14 percent of men suffer from it.*
> 
> A recent ELLE/MSNBC.com survey found that *66 percent of men in a relationship said they want more sex compared to only 25 percent of women.* And, men are more likely than women to be very disappointed with the amount of body contact they get in their relationship.


But really ..it doesn't matter.. it's an individual case by case basis.. of [email protected]#$.. this thread was addressing how one woman was stunted due to the Good Girl Syndrome, what it stole from her , her husband...and his suffering .....by me focusing on men's needs sexually -feeling that the majority LOVE sex & very much so.. in no way am I trying to diminish others experiences ....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anonymous07 said:


> Ugh, can we just kill that stereotype that "all guys 'love' sex". It's annoying to hear it over and over again, when it's not true. Both men and women can make a relationship sexless. There are women and men who just are not into sex, for one reason or another. One sex/gender is not more sexual than the other, even though society wants us to think differently.


Men are just as likely to make their marriages sexless as women are. About 20% of marriage are sexless.. with neither gender have a monopoly in making it so.

I get so tired of the stereo type that men are sex gods and women are sexless. In both of my marriages we had a very strong, just about daily sex life. That is what I wanted and I thought that was normal and good. In both marriages it was my husbands who stopped having sex. They did not want sex. Why? I don't know. Neither of them would talk about it. Since they would not talk about it I did a lot of reading, only to find out that this is not all that unusual for men to make their marriage/relationship sexless.


Society has been teaching that women are less sexual, do not enjoy sex, and so forth for at least 2000 years. For example in the Victorian era the medical and scientific literature said that women have no sex drive. The science said that for women, sex is something that they do for their husbands only, not for their own pleasure. If a woman enjoyed sex and had a sex drive, it was considered an illness that had to be cured very quickly.

Also it was considered that only the lowest class women had any real interest is sex.. they were defective.

Today girls are still taught to hide their sexuality. they are taught that if they are sexual they are dirty. Boys are taught the same thing about girls. 

So what happens when medial/biological research is conducted? Everything about human sexuality is self reported. 

Men self report what they were taught is the way a man should be... they self report about their great desire for sex. Few LD men are going to admit that they are LD. 

Most women will self report according to what they were taught.. they will downplay their sexual drive and desires. Women know that if they dare to be open about this, they will be branded and looked down on.

What is happening however is that some women are no longer buying into what hey were taught as little girls. We have come to realize that it's nothing but nonsense. We have come to realize that we have always been very HD/sexual. And we are talking about it.

And what is happening.. well it seems we are being told by some that we are wrong. We don't know what we are talking about.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Elegirl said*: *In both marriages it was my husbands who stopped having sex. They did not want sex. Why? I don't know. Neither of them would talk about it. Since they would not talk about it I did a lot of reading, only to find out that this is not all that unusual for men to make their marriage/relationship sexless.*


 There was an author who tried to tackle this ..... this is the breakdown ...surely similar to many things you read.. 

" Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It: Bob Berkowitz: Books

It says..." *Why do men stop having sex with their wives.*..The reason is seldom simple and may have a *physiological* , *psychological* , or *cultural* foundation, recent studies add a genetic component.. Often these elements combine. 

We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self -identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. We asked men to list the reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree ...the Following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes"...



> She isn't sexually adventurous enough for me..............68%
> She doesn't seem to enjoy sex..................................61%
> I am interested in sex with others, just not my wife......48%
> I am angry at her...................................................44%
> ...


Thought these were some good articles also....one thing they do not have listed in these is all too common * RESENTMENT *, which according to above -his being angry is like *44%*... I'd say even higher really... that's the BIGGIE... but anyway... 

Why Men do not want sex...


12 Reasons Your Man Doesn't Want to Have Sex Anymore | The Stir



> If your husband stops wanting to have sex with you, the first thing that usually goes through your mind is that he's having an affair. I mean, why else would a guy turn down a romp in the sack unless he's getting that romp elsewhere, right??!!! But there's a lot of reasons that hubby can lose his sex drive. And it's happening more and more (or at least people are willing to admit it more). I know couples who have been married less than a year and suddenly the guy loses his mojo -- guys in their 20s even!
> 
> Here's 12 reasons your husband may not want to have sex with you -- besides having an affair.
> 
> ...


Low Sex Drive in Men at WomansDay.com - Mens Sexual Health 



> *1. **Male “Menopause”*
> It may be surprising to hear, but many health experts say that what menopause is to women, andropause is to men. The good news for our guys: It’s not as sudden or intense as the bodily changes women can sometimes face. As men age, it’s natural for them to experience a somewhat decreased sex drive, says Jeanne O’Connell, MD, medical director and cofounder of Sylvana Institute for Medical Aesthetics in Frederick, Maryland.
> What to do?
> 
> ...


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Today girls are still taught to hide their sexuality. they are taught that if they are sexual they are dirty. Boys are taught the same thing about girls.
> 
> *So what happens when medial/biological research is conducted? Everything about human sexuality is self reported.*
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

Growing up, I was taught that sex was for men. My mother told me to please my husband and just go along with what he wanted. That was how to have a good marriage. Men are supposed to be sexual and women are not. That was always the message I got, but I don't follow it. I have always had a high sex drive for as long as I can remember. My drive is higher than my husband's, as is the case for many women. Would my husband claim or admit to being LD? No. He would answer a questionnaire saying he is HD. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> There was an author who tried to tackle this ..... this is the breakdown ...surely similar to many things you read..
> 
> " Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It: Bob Berkowitz: Books
> 
> ...



The "common" websites for men having LD all try to point to something out of the man's control(the stir/cafe mom website bugs me to no end). It's the "woman's fault", since supposedly many women aren't adventurous enough, depressed, not attractive, etc. All self-reported information. A great way to shift the blame from something that may be an issue they brought on. I don't believe those sites. You can also look at other websites, where the information is pretty opposite. Redbook did a poll where 60% of the respondents said they were as interested as their husbands in sex or more so. Pretty opposite of the information about the problem being women. 

There has been a book out somewhat recently called the Sex Starved Wife, which says "that low sexual desire in men is America's best-kept secret". Every day we hear "Men always want sex. That's the message you hear from your friends, from talk-show experts, from TV sitcoms. Except when they don't." Men and women can make their marriage sexless. The reasons why the person is LD are usually personal, not something out of their control, but every case is unique. The reason for my husband being LD is none of the above "common" reasons. We're still working on the sex issue in my marriage.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I think that society does send messages to men and women that skew the HD / LD numbers. Women are told not to admit to having a sex drive on pain of being shamed and men are told the opposite.

Still, I would be very curious whether the percentages of sexless marriages broken down by the LD's gender would be the same for all age cohorts. That is, do you think 50% of the LDs in sexless marriages among spouses in their 20s are male? If that is the case, that would be very important information to make more widely known.

I suspect you may find that LDs skew female at younger ages and male LDs increase with age. Many of the items on the "why are males LD?" list are age-related. So if you ask these LD older males are they LD, many would say "no way". What these guys would say is "well, I was HD in my teens and 20s and 30s, but as I got older and endured rejection, and physical deterioration, I got less interested." If their spouse now asks them for sex, they might say "where were you when I was 30 and wanted it desperately and you kept turning me down?" Yes, I know that is cutting off your nose to spite you face, but I would be interested in research showing whether this is representative or just the fevered imaginings of my sex-starved imagination.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think that society does send messages to men and women that skew the HD / LD numbers. Women are told not to admit to having a sex drive on pain of being shamed and men are told the opposite.
> 
> Still, I would be very curious whether the percentages of sexless marriages broken down by the LD's gender would be the same for all age cohorts. That is, do you think 50% of the LDs in sexless marriages among spouses in their 20s are male? If that is the case, that would be very important information to make more widely known.
> 
> ...


The last part follows the typical stereotype. The woman doesn't want sex and turns away the horny husband, but then wants it later and he's mad/hurt. I've seen the example on tv, but wouldn't say it's what always happens. Things are a lot more complex than that. I'm young and my husband is young, and I'm the one bugging him for sex(although I've backed off lately).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon: Not always the same couple. Guy could have gotten turned down by other women when he was younger, then is "ruined" for his current wife who never turned him down.

And yes, I realize that there are young men who turn down sex. I am genuinely curious about the proportions. If half the people complaining about a lack of sex among 20-something married couples are female, that is a fact that needs to be more widely publicized!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Here's some data on that Holdingtoit:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/2...idowitz-searching-for-sex.html?referrer=&_r=1

From the article:

On Google, the top complaint about a marriage is not having sex. Searches for “sexless marriage” are three and a half times more common than “unhappy marriage” and eight times more common than “loveless marriage.” There are 16 times more complaints about a spouse not wanting sex than about a married partner not being willing to talk.

Even couples not yet married complain somewhat frequently about lack of sex. Google searches for “sexless relationship” are second only to searches for “abusive relationship.” (Abusive relationships are obviously a very important topic that I will return to in the future.)

On Google, there are five and a half times more complaints about an unmarried partner not wanting sex than an unmarried partner refusing to text back. *There are more complaints that a boyfriend “won’t have sex” than that a “girlfriend” won’t. Complaints about “husbands” and “wives” are roughly equal.*


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anonymous07 said:


> Growing up, I was taught that sex was for men. My mother told me to please my husband and just go along with what he wanted. That was how to have a good marriage. Men are supposed to be sexual and women are not. That was always the message I got, but I don't follow it. I have always had a high sex drive for as long as I can remember. My drive is higher than my husband's, as is the case for many women. Would my husband claim or admit to being LD? No. He would answer a questionnaire saying he is HD.


 I wasn't really taught this.. I always had a sex drive and if someone even suggested that women didn't - I would think to myself.. "well...they must not masturbate then, cause that feels damn heavenly good !"...& I had lots & lots of fantasies about going all the way...Wouldn't matter what I was taught. my hormones over rode it for me.. in regards to sex drive , that is...

What the culture taught that good girls wait for love.. ....I didn't have a problem with this ..nor do I still today... even if some think that makes me a prude, oh well...can't always judge a book by it's cover there either...I gotta live with that stereotype that gets flung around here too (and you know what.. many times it IS TRUE.. so what can I say..not too much!)... I've always thought for myself.. and argued against things that didn't make sense to me.. 

So what you are saying basically is.. TOO MANY WOMEN are not thinking for themselves, and it's high time to feed them these new truths so they will act accordingly... this will allow their hormones to come alive unto their men more so...

If it works.. I guess it's all good!...

Though really.....I think our young people are awfully liberal with sex today.... I don't think "GOOD GIRL syndrome" is much of a problem these days...except maybe in christian circles... 



> *Anonymous07 said:* The "common" websites for men having LD all try to point to something out of the man's control(the stir/cafe mom website bugs me to no end). It's the "woman's fault", since supposedly many women aren't adventurous enough, depressed, not attractive, etc. All self-reported information. A great way to shift the blame from something that may be an issue they brought on.* I don't believe those sites. *
> 
> You can also look at other websites, where the information is pretty opposite. Redbook did a poll where 60% of the respondents said they were as interested as their husbands in sex or more so. Pretty opposite of the information about the problem being women.


 so we are to throw out all the articles and books written by men who have given studies or spoken to other men...and just listen to the women...is this what you are suggesting ?? 

If there is one thing that will continue to divide the sexes, it is this attitude in thumbing our nose to what the other side has to say....and demanding our own version of truth... I'm just not on board with that.. 

The real truth lies somewhere in the middle...that's my position .


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> so we are to throw out all the articles and books written by men who have given studies or spoken to other men...and just listen to the women...is this what you are suggesting ??
> 
> If there is one thing that will continue to divide the sexes, it is this attitude in thumbing our nose to what the other side has to say....and demanding our own version of truth... I'm just not on board with that..
> 
> The real truth lies somewhere in the middle...that's my position .


Yes, the truth lies in the middle. Right now, most websites/articles/books take the man's account for what goes on and ignores what the woman has to say. It has only been in the last decade or so that women have come forward to say that they have a higher sex drive than their husband(a difficult thing to do in our society, since sexual women are seen as 'slvts' and unladylike) and they're told they are wrong by those articles/books(because all men "think about/want sex 24/7" ). It's only the very beginning of women being accepted as a sexual being because it has for the longest time been about men as the "most" sexual. Men and women are both sexual beings, whether or not people want to accept that. Maybe at some point, the books and articles will actually look at both sides, but right now they typically only take one side(the man's).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks FW. Always glad to learn new information.

Wish I had experienced that reality 30 years ago when I was young and horny.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anonymous07 said:


> Yes, the truth lies in the middle. Right now, most websites/articles/books take the man's account for what goes on and ignores what the woman has to say. *It has only been in the last decade or so that women have come forward to say that they have a higher sex drive than their husband(a difficult thing to do in our society, since sexual women are seen as 'slvts' and unladylike) and they're told they are wrong by those articles/books(because all men "think about/want sex 24/7"* ). It's only the very beginning of women being accepted as a sexual being because it has for the longest time been about men as the "most" sexual. Men and women are both sexual beings, whether or not people want to accept that. Maybe at some point, the books and articles will actually look at both sides, but right now they typically only take one side(the man's).


I'm going to start a thread on this with what I consider a balanced article.. and others can come forth and give your take, share links, articles of your truth....working on it.. 

What I would really like to understand though is the aim in all of this...stereotype squashed...OK... so now what... women have a AS HIGH of a sex drive.. they KNOW IT... and they are going to USE IT.... JUST LIKE MEN.. this will just = more hooking up in our young people ..... young men won't be complaining about this -by the way!

Effects on our society , more overt sex saturated....Effects on the state of marriage.. should be telling...

For the few who still believe in the sanctity of Marriage...none of these husbands are going to be complaining about their wives being unlady like or sl**y.... they want that , especially if they have waited for it..--just as we want it too -the gentleman out & about..and the bad boy in our bed.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> Yes, the truth lies in the middle. Right now, most websites/articles/books take the man's account for what goes on and ignores what the woman has to say. It has only been in the last decade or so that women have come forward to say that they have a higher sex drive than their husband(a difficult thing to do in our society, since sexual women are seen as 'slvts' and unladylike) and they're told they are wrong by those articles/books(because all men "think about/want sex 24/7" ). It's only the very beginning of women being accepted as a sexual being because it has for the longest time been about men as the "most" sexual. Men and women are both sexual beings, whether or not people want to accept that. Maybe at some point, the books and articles will actually look at both sides, but right now they typically only take one side(the man's).


This is finally slowly changing, and I suspect in 10 years or less it will be considered stone age thinking to believe that men want sex more than women do, and that "all men want sex and women want it less". There will continue to be less shaming and more women speaking out. Plus the younger generation knows that our generation have it all wrong, so they will most likely not follow our pattern of believing those untruths.

Also porn use will even out, which will put an end to the current "just look at porn, until women are watching it as much as men are...." Well, that is about to happen.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm going to start a thread on this with what I consider a balanced article.. and others can come forth and give your take, share links, articles of your truth....working on it..
> 
> What I would really like to understand though is the aim in all of this...stereotype squashed...OK... so now what... women have a AS HIGH of a sex drive.. they KNOW IT... and they are going to USE IT.... JUST LIKE MEN.. this will just = more hooking up in our young people ..... young men won't be complaining about this -by the way!
> 
> ...


People realizing that women are just as sexual as men does not mean people lose their boundaries. I don't understand that thought process. :scratchhead: I'm not sure if you remember, but I waited to have sex, only ever sleeping with my husband. Just because a woman is sexual too doesn't mean she automatically hooks up with every guy she meets. Just because a person has a high drive does not mean they automatically use it. I find that an insulting thought. 

I just think if more people realize that both men and women are sexual, then relationships can change. If more women are open about having a higher sex drive, not necessarily sleeping around, then they can possibly find a better match for themselves in marriage. There can be healthier sexual relationships, as the stereotypes get put to rest. The woman can openly say she has a HD and not be ashamed of that, not told she should be more 'ladylike', etc.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is finally slowly changing, and I suspect in 10 years or less it will be considered stone age thinking to believe that men want sex more than women do, and that "all men want sex and women want it less". There will continue to be less shaming and more women speaking out. Plus the younger generation knows that our generation have it all wrong, so they will most likely not follow our pattern of believing those untruths.
> 
> Also porn use will even out, which will put an end to the current "just look at porn, until women are watching it as much as men are...." Well, that is about to happen.


It is changing, which is awesome, but it's not there yet. I still don't feel comfortable telling anyone in real life about me wanting more sex than my husband. I'd rather not deal with the aftermath of me saying that, as I know many family members and friends would not take that comment well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The only reason anyone ever believed that men are more sexual than women was because of sl*t shaming. If people are free to be as sexual as they really are (which does not mean having rampant orgies) without being shamed, then we will see nature's perfect design: males and females BOTH want sex in equal measure. As individuals, some of us want sex more than others so some are HD and some are LD, of both genders.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> It is changing, which is awesome, but it's not there yet. I still don't feel comfortable telling anyone in real life about me wanting more sex than my husband. I'd rather not deal with the aftermath of me saying that, as I know many family members and friends would not take that comment well.


I hear you. Most of the HD wives in sexless marriages with LD men I know also don't tell people in real life (I'm an exception because I ask nosey questions and get people to open up about these things, and then once they realize I "get it" they completely open up). But they don't tell their sisters who are happily getting sex every night, etc. I know Curious Wife has the same stigma and doesn't feel comfortable talking about it. If an HD woman with an LD man does talk about it, the first comment or thought is usually "what are you doing wrong?" Eventually this attitude will change.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anonymous07 said:


> People realizing that women are just as sexual as men does not mean people lose their boundaries. I don't understand that thought process. :scratchhead: I'm not sure if you remember, but I waited to have sex, only ever sleeping with my husband. Just because a woman is sexual too doesn't mean she automatically hooks up with every guy she meets. Just because a person has a high drive does not mean they automatically use it. I find that an insulting thought.


I most definitely didn't forget.. it's about the only thing I think we have in common.. but for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would judge someone for talking about sex.. this is what I don't get I suppose.. 

We should all be very honest in regards to who we are/ what we want..lots of sex talk..... you know some men get burned with the woman making herself seem more sexual than she really is too.. what about that.. Honesty is always for the best.... of course, you won't find me disagreeing.. the more vulnerable we are with each other while dating, the BETTER !


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I was also going to point out that LD men also are not free to speak out. They are shamed into silence by this pervasive societal rule that "all men are horn dogs."


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I was also going to point out that LD men also are not free to speak out. They are shamed into silence by this pervasive societal rule that "all men are horn dogs."


It's not the societal rule _itself_ that keeps us quiet.
It's the instant ridicule from all those men and women who 
have already been persuaded to believe in that fallacy.
It's an applecart they do not want upset. 
We're messing with their way of life.
It's easier to attack us than to believe they might be wrong...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, it is the people who put the societal rule in place, Mr. Vanilla. I thought that was implied.

Having said that, I'd love to hear more of your experiences on this as an LD man. Please do share. Have you always been LD, say since high school?


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Having said that, I'd love to hear more of your experiences on this as an LD man. Please do share. Have you always been LD, say since high school?


It appears as though my LD is a product of learned behavior. I had a 'higher' or far more normal sex drive in high school and into my 30's, but that very drive became 'problematic' for me in that I had few opportunities to explore it. 

My parents moved when I was 10 and I had to change schools. My 'new' peer group (fourth grade) rejected me socially on my very first day and that group continued to reject, harass and bully me until I graduated eight years later. Children don't really understand social rejection. What I 'believed' was that they (the peer group) didn't want me there. Since I believed I wasn't wanted in social situations within the peer group, I didn't participate. The lack of social participation, and the continued fear of rejection left me with very few social skills. 

The combination of having a healthy drive and being so socially inept created a situation where I was simply unable to find an outlet. That frustration became so 'annoying' to me that I began to consciously avoid situations and stimulus that may have initiated in sexual arousal. I did this for so long (years) that the 'conscious' avoidance became unconscious - meaning that I actually 'trained myself' to avoid things that I found sexually stimulating. Why make yourself frustrated and uncomfortable if you had the chance not to... 

All of my personal behavioral training collided with my LW (who had no idea) when she began to suggest ways for the two of us to change things up in the bedroom. She'd become bored with our usual routine and began making suggestions. Most everything she suggested was completely unknown to me. Her suggestions didn't mean anything to me. They held no value. I didn't find them alluring or intriguing. I'm just not at all interested because I was never 'taught' that these variations are supposed to be stimulating because I avoided them. I have no feeling for them what-so-ever. They don't 'mean' sex to me. Since they don't mean sex to me, I have no interest. My sex drive is stuck in the box that I created and there's a chance that I'm still unconsciously filing these 'new' things into the avoidance file of my brain. 

So instead of 'turning me on' with her suggestions, she has turned me off. My sex drive wasn't all that high to begin with and now it's declining even more _because_ of her suggestions.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ...so we are to throw out all the articles and books written by men who have given studies or spoken to other men...and just listen to the women...


I'm okay listening to the women...

A factoid I've pointed out more than once on this forum is that most of the _formal_ studies done in the last twenty-five years or so have been conducted by female professors and they have typically devoted at least a page (Sometimes more) to bias and how they have corrected for it.


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