# Don't know what my next move should be...



## father_of_2 (Oct 27, 2017)

Please allow me to vent a bit. I'm not sure what to do anymore. I am seriously contemplating whether to end the marriage...

Long story short, my wife has been experiencing delusions that my brother's wife and now my best friend's wife are out to get her, to bring her down, to "berate" her in public, steal her phone, etc. It has escalated into her saying that I don't support her because I don't believe the delusions - that I'm "taking up for them" instead of sticking up for her. There were little glimpses of this kind of distorted thinking a couple times in the first year of our marriage, but none between then and summer of 2016. She had 4 miscarriages, lost her grandmother (and mine), quit jobs, and then went into this mode.

I posted in the mental health forum at the end of October. Title of thread "Lost, beaten down, marriage falling apart" if you want to read more about the history.

Since the post I made in October, we have seen a MC, who told her she has PTSD and that she needs to get a hold of her distorted thoughts. But there have been some really disturbing and upsetting things that have happened. She has become extremely sarcastic, untrusting, suspicious, cold. We haven't had sex in weeks, and it was weeks before that time as well. She is very disrespectful toward me, talking down to me in front of the kids, and more.

Worst of all, this past weekend, I was planning to go to my parents house with our oldest daughter and then meet my wife and youngest daughter at church. Time was getting too tight once the oldest was ready to go, so I asked my wife her opinion on whether we should go. She sarcastically said "whateeeever you want" - I said I'm just asking her for her opinion. She again said, sarcastically, "whateeeever you want to do." Then said "You're the one getting upset." I said I'm not getting upset, I'm just asking her opinion.

Then the truth comes out... she says "Well, I guess it depends on if you're going to say nice things about me when you're there." I told her I always do. She continued and started saying "well what did you tell your dad?" "what did you tell your friend?" "They all think I'm a big b***h" - none of which is true. Which is what I told her. She continued.

Then she said that my friend's wife told her we'd be divorced after 10 years (she didn't), and that I said that what she said had merit (I didn't). Told her I didn't say it - she continued to say I did. So I got fed up and said "I think you're hearing things." Not the first time she's put words in my mouth that were 180 from reality.

She starts screaming at me to GET OUT. So, I said, "Fine. I'm done with this conversation." So I turned and started walking out of the room and the next thing I know, a baby bottle has been hurled at the back of my head!! I turned around and told her I should call the cops on her for physical abuse like she called the cops on me for not believing her.

Worst part of the whole fight (for me)... I was going to walk out of the room again, and she went and shut the door and said "WHAT IF I TOLD YOU YOU WERE THE FATTEST GUY I EVER F**KED?!! YOU NEED TO GO TO THE FAT FARM!!"

I have never been so disrespected in my entire life. By anyone. Ever. I said "F**K YOU" twice, told her if she ever physically abused me again I would divorce her right then and there and left the room. First time I've ever been pushed so far as to say that.

She spent the rest of the day crying about me saying she was hearing things. She's been cold and angry ever since.

I don't know how I can continue being abused like this. Verbally, I've been taking lashings for 6 months and this last one was WAY over the line. Mentally, she's made constant comments about my weight every time I bring up her mental health and she nags me seemingly endlessly about EVERYTHING. Now physically? I don't think so.

What would you all do in my situation? We have two young kids (6 and 7 months). I cannot bare the thought of being without them as they are my world.

But right now, I don't feel much love for or from my wife. She clearly doesn't respect me or all that I do for our family as the sole provider so she can stay home with the baby. She is now latching onto the diagnosis of "PTSD" and using it as an excuse for bad behavior.

I just don't know if it's time to take the ultimate step...


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

She may be having postpartum depression. Hormones may be out of whack. Seek professional help.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

A marriage counselor is not qualified to diagnose PTSD, postpartum depression or anything else. She needs a SHRINK (able to prescribe if needs be) not a MSW or the like. She does. MC during or after.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

If someone is really delusional, as in a mental health problem, then you can't either threaten or reason them out of it. 
Nor by telling they "need to get hold on their distorted thoughts". 

I don't know what applies where you live, but you may need to be investigating how and by whom she could be admitted for mental health care, if she doesn't acknowledge that she needs treatment, and young children are involved. 
There is such a thing as psychotic postpartum depression.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/postpartumpsychosis.aspx



NobodySpecial said:


> A marriage counselor is not qualified to diagnose PTSD, postpartum depression or anything else. She needs a SHRINK (able to prescribe if needs be) not a MSW or the like.


Yes, this.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@Uptown


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

@*Farside*, thanks for the call-out. Actually, Father and I discussed this issue six weeks ago in his other thread. My first post observed that he seemed to be describing symptoms of PPD, given the recent birth of his second child -- and I suggested he speak with a psychiatrist. He dismissed PPD as being unlikely because he recalled seeing similar paranoid behavior before his W had given birth to their first child over six years earlier. 

Father therefore believed that her dysfunctional behaviors likely arise from a lifetime condition that is "just part of who she is." Because he had read that paranoia and temper tantrums are two symptoms for BPD, he had already started suspecting that her symptoms were those of BPD or perhaps Delusional Disorder.

In my last post in that other thread, I observed that Delusional Disorder was a possibility but statistically is so rare (having an extremely low prevalence of only 0.02%), that it seemed highly unlikely. I therefore suggested that Father look at my list of 18 BPD warning signs to see if that description of symptoms rings many bells. I assume that these BPD red flags did not seem applicable or sound familiar because Father never returned to that thread.



father_of_2 said:


> Since the post I made in October, we have seen a MC, who told her she has PTSD.


Father, I agree with @*NobodySpecial* that your W needs to be evaluated by a psychologist or psychiatrist, not a MC. Yet, if BPD may be an issue -- as you suspected in October -- it is unlikely that the psychologist will tell her (much less tell you) the name of that disorder if it turns out to be the actual diagnosis. Therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder because it usually is not in her best interests to be told.

This is why, when BPD is believed to be a strong possibility, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see your own psychologist, i.e., one who has never treated or seen your W. In that way, you will ensure that the psychologist is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. 

Regardless of whether you decide to divorce her or not, Father, it is important that -- if you still are seeing strong BPD warning signs -- you see your own psychologist for a visit or two to receive candid information on what you and your two children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for your own psychologist to obtain a candid second opinion, you take a quick look at my list of _18 BPD Warning Signs_ -- and my more detailed description in _Maybe's Thread_ -- to see if most signs sound very familiar.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I would also echo @Laurentium’s caution re: postpartum psychosis. Symptoms can include:

Delusions or strange beliefs
Hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that aren’t there)
Feeling very irritated
Hyperactivity
Decreased need for or inability to sleep
Paranoia and suspiciousness
Rapid mood swings
Difficulty communicating at times

No amount of talk therapy can help, if this is what it is. She should be evaluated by a medical doctor and may need to be medicated.


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## father_of_2 (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi all - Got pretty caught up with work after my post 6 weeks ago and didn't get a chance to go back and comment. I did read the 18 signs of BPD and many of them really do ring a bell.

1) Black or white thinking - it is always all or nothing; And when she's in the throws of an episode, it's even worse.

2) "you always" or "you never" - yep

3) Irrational jealousy - she's constantly accusing me of looking at other women, of "partying" when I go out of town for work and of flirting with women at bars - none of which actually happens. In fact, I spend the time at bars chatting with my boss and the guys from work or texting her! And those work trips are the only time I ever step foot in a bar. I have 2 or3 drinks and joke around with the guys, and then go back to my hotel.

4) What have you done for me lately? attitude - yes, definitely; I used to work from home exclusively and she was a teacher. She'd give me a list of 10 things to do and I would get 8 or 9 of them done but because I didn't get the 10th done due to work, it was as if I'd done nothing all day. Now I work in an office, have 20 people working for me in 4 different countries, have to work from home in the evenings sometimes, but she still expects me to do everything - laundry, dishes, taking out the trash, bathing the kids, etc. (and I don't object to helping around the house, btw - I have always been hands-on in the house and with the kids) and if it's not all done to her satisfaction, it is as if I've done nothing

5) Flipping between adoring and devaluing - yes! She did this just yesterday, actually. In the morning she was jumping down my throat and when I came home she was all sunshine

6) Drama over minor things - yes

7) Low self esteem - to a point, yes. She thinks she's confident, and for the most part she is, but she does do a lot of negative self-talk about her age (almost 40), her weight

8) Verbal abuse / anger easily triggered - goes without saying!!

10) The victim - yes, this is pretty frequent. I'm blamed for anything and everything that goes wrong

18) Rewriting history to match her intense feelings - yes, happens all the time; putting words in my mouth that I never said, etc.

I am seeing my own IC as I had trouble with depression 15 years ago and I don't want to be triggered back into it. I have too much responsibility and too many people counting on me to sink into that again. So far, I've been able to navigate this without any negative self-talk or self-blame.

My biggest concerns are the alienation from my brother's family (even though I don't get along with him, I still want to see and spend time with my niece) and now from my best friend and his family due to her delusions and the constant attacks, negativity, verbal/emotional abuse and now physical abuse.

I am truly at a loss as to how to handle it now. Her comment about being "the fattest guy she ever f****d" was just way too far over the line, but she has shown no remorse. In fact, when I brought it up and told her I would not tolerate her speaking to me that way ever again, she put it back on me because I said she was hearing things. She doesn't think anything is wrong with her at all aside from this diagnosis of PTSD, though she's now taking at least 2 of the 3 medications she's supposed to be taking. Her psychiatrist gave her Abilify but told her it's for insomnia (not delusions) so she doesn't take it unless she can't sleep. 

I guess what I'm looking for is - what would you do in my position?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Father, because you're identifying 10 of the 18 warning signs as being strong, you're identifying a strong pattern of BPD red flags. I suspect that, once the remaining signs are better clarified, you will recognize that a few of them apply strongly as well. I say this because the list generally provides two real world examples for each of the 9 BPD symptoms. Hence, if you recognize one of the two examples, the other likely occurs as well.

For example, you state that she exhibits #3: Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members." The reason that this irrational jealousy and controlling attitude exist is that the BPDer has such a terrible fear of abandonment that she sees threats of abandonment where they don't even exist. Indeed, this abandonment fear is such a key feature of BPD that I've never met -- or even heard of -- a BPDer who does not have such a great fear. I thus suspect that you should have included trait #9: "Fear of abandonment." If so, this addition increases the warning sign count to 11.

Similarly, I suggest you reconsider #11: "Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences." You are describing a woman who cannot control her own impulses and emotions, with the result that she does very reckless things -- e.g., calling the cops on you for no good reason and hitting you in the head by throwing a baby bottle at you.



> Or maybe BPD with psychotic features or something like that...


The vast majority of full-blown BPDers (studies suggest 2/3 to 3/4 of them) are high functioning individuals who rarely -- or never -- become psychotic. My understanding is that the BPDers who become psychotic are the low functioning BPDers who are in so much pain that they enter the hospitals and, thus, end up in some academic studies. 

A 2013 study of these low functioning BPDer patients estimated that between 20% and 50% of them sometimes exhibit psychotic behavior. A 2014 study of them concluded that most of these LF BPDer patients report that they experienced at least one symptom of psychosis such as frequent auditory or visual hallucinations. See pp. 26-27 of Psychosis in BPD, 2017.

Significantly, psychosis is NOT one of the 9 defining symptoms for BPD. Many psychologists nonetheless believe it can occur when a low functioning BPDer is subject to major stress. It also can occur when BPD co-occurs with Bipolar-1 Disorder (when the mania becomes so strong that it produces psychosis). I mention this because half of the people exhibiting full-blown Bipolar-1 in the past year also suffer from lifetime BPD (See Table 2 at 2008 Study in JCP).



> I am seeing my own IC.


Smart decision. If he/she is a psychologist or psychiatrist, I suggest you ask about the chances you and your two children are dealing with a woman who exhibits strong BPD traits. If the psych agrees that you're describing a strong pattern of BPD symptoms, please keep in mind that the biggest cause of such symptoms is not the lifetime disorder called "BPD." Rather, it usually is a temporary flareup of the normal BPD traits we all exhibit to some degree. Such flareups usually are caused by a hormone change (e.g., PPD or pregnancy) or drug abuse. Although those flareups are temporary, they nonetheless can last a year (for pregnancy) or several years (for PPD or perimenopause).

If your W suffers from the lifetime disorder called "BPD," this problem likely was fully entrenched in her mind by age five and started showing strongly in the early teens -- and was persistent thereafter (i.e., likely showed strongly every 2 or 3 months at least). Although this lifetime BPD can stop showing symptoms during courtship, those symptoms will return as soon as the infatuation starts to wane. Lifetime BPD does not completely disappear for a year or two. 

Hence, if you suspect your W may suffer from it, you should speak with her friends and relatives to find out what her behavior was like before you started dating her -- and speak with your psych about whether your W's symptoms seem to be sufficiently persistent to constitute a lifetime disorder such as BPD.



> I guess what I'm looking for is - what would you do in my position?


If you decide that your W exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, then I was in your position for 15 years. What I did was to spend over $200,000 sending her to six different psychologists for weekly sessions. And I would still be sending her to them if she had not flown into a rage, called the police, and had me arrested on the bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. 

Amazingly, I still was not ready to divorce her when I got out of jail 3 days later and found that she had obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State). Instead, I was absolutely certain that she would never testify against me six months later when the case went to trial. But she did. And I started reading online about BPD. So, to answer your question, I suggest that you NOT do what I did.


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## father_of_2 (Oct 27, 2017)

I'm really struggling with this. I want to get her the help she needs, but she becomes very aggressive and belligerent whenever anyone (myself, her parents) mention to her that she needs to be seeing the doctor more often.

I haven't made things any easier. I learned early on in our marriage that if I said "no" to anything - spending money, going to a party, going to church, etc. - she would react with anger. So, I've pretty much stopped saying no and give in to whatever she asks for. I am a meticulous budget planner and I have been trying to get my wife to be interested in the budget for 7 years, and I have gotten her to look at the report I put together that covers two weeks, but she absolutely refuses to look at anything past that. I have made plans going out YEARS, with exact numbers down to the penny - she will not even look at it, which is hurtful in itself because I've put so much effort and planning into it.

I think about my parents - my mother is schizophrenic and my dad has stuck with her for 45 years. Commendable, because she would not be able to function on her own, but it's taken a toll on him. She's been hospitalized probably 15 times, undergone ECT several times, been on tons of different medications, and now at 71 years old is still hearing voices, seeing spiders everywhere, and depressed 6 days out of 7. My dad retired 3 years ago and has done nothing but take care of my mom. And when he was working, he constantly had to take time to take care of her. He ended his AF career as a Colonel, but was held back from being promoted to General because he couldn't move overseas - the AF would not guarantee they could take care of my mother overseas.

The key difference, though, is that my mother recognizes she is ill. She accepts it and seeks help. My wife thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong and NO ONE is going to tell her otherwise. She becomes aggressive and belligerent when confronted.

My fear is that I will end up like my father, spending my life being verbally abused, having things I said in reaction/frustration held over my head for years, having the fact that I took her to the hospital held over my head for years, being alienated from family and my best friend... and who's going to be the next one she will have delusions about??

I hesitate to even mention this, but one day when she was out of the house and I was there alone with the baby, I saw her journal under the bed, open. Curiosity got the better of me and I opened it. I found that she'd written about a man who she dated before she met me, who is a cop that she was delusionally thinking was investigating my brother's wife (!!), and that it took her 11 years to figure out that he liked her and how long did it take for him to realize she liked him... That she doesn't want to hurt anyone, especially our kids, but wants God to tell her the right place she needs to be. She tends to write just random words and thoughts... one was "waiting to have sex" - WTF? At first, I thought this was real and was going to confront her - but then I thought... what if this is all part of the delusion that he's investigating on her behalf??? I neglected to take a photo of the journal pages and now she's ripped it all out, so I don't have the proof. But I do have a picture of an envelope she had written a practice note on that looks like she was going to contact the guy...

And last night she started talking about wanting to try for a 3rd child next year. I just said "let's talk about it next year." I've started using protection when we do have sex because I don't want to take any chances. She just thinks it's because I don't want to pull out anymore (sorry if that's too graphic...).

I'm leaning towards ending the marriage, honestly, but I go back and forth. I want a happy home for my kids, and would prefer it to be with my wife, but what if that's not possible?


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

Leave. Take your kids and leave. Your obligation is to those kids who do not deserve to grow up with that.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

You have some self confidence issues. You need to "man up" and not tolerate this. It sounds to me you are at the point of being sick and tired of being sick and tired. That's good. It means you are thinking clear and will execute soon. It takes a ton of courage to divorce and uproot a family for your own personal well being and happiness. I've been there. You have an obligation to your kids to protect them. To shield them from her. You need to blow this marriage up and tell everyone the truth. Don't hide your nightmare. Once your close friends and family know, you'll no longer be hiding a secret and be able to make decisions. Don't worry what anyone else thinks or says. This is your life, live so there are no regrets. She needs to own up to her mental issues and seek help. Save yourself and get out now. 

Start reading No More Mr Nice Guy. Start right now. Free PDF download, just google it if you don't want to pay $10. I think this book will speak to you and get the ball going. It did for me.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

father_of_2 said:


> The key difference, though, is that my mother recognizes she is ill. She accepts it and seeks help. My wife thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong.


Father, like other personality disorders, BPD almost always is invisible to the person suffering from it. Hence, if your W is a BPDer, you were blamed for all mistakes because she lacks the self awareness to realize she has a serious problem. 

This is why BPD and other PDs are said to be "egosyntonic," which means they are so consistent with the desires and needs of the person's ego that she is unaware that there is anything wrong or dysfunctional about them. She is convinced that her excessive demands are not only reasonable but also the only right way to do things. 

In contrast, a woman whose issues are limited to depression and anxiety disorders (i.e., not PDs) usually is aware that her behavior is unreasonable but she does it anyway to reduce the painful depression or anxiety. Whereas a high functioning BPDer typically feels no urgency to address her issues because her distorted thinking seems perfectly normal and comforting to her, a woman suffering only from depression or anxiety typically is well aware of this problem and finds it to be stressful and very unpleasant. 

This is why most "clinical disorders" such as strong depression and anxiety are usually much easier to treat than personality disorders such as BPD. And this is why, if you urge a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy, it is very unlikely she will go. Your best chance to persuade her to see a therapist is during one of those rare days when she has a "moment of clarity." These moments typically occur only when a BPDer is have an emotional breakdown because she has been caught doing something awful and she is convinced her partner will abandon her.


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## father_of_2 (Oct 27, 2017)

More of the same tonight. After a nice afternoon where she was in a good mood, I told her I don't want to go to a Men of Acts meeting tomorrow. That it's not for me. She has become obsessive about religion the past 2 yrs. and wants me to "get closer to God." I tried it last month. Nice group of guys, it just didn't resonate.

180 degree mood flip. She spent the rest of the evening giving me the cold shoulder, giving me dirty looks, and generally indignant. When I was sitting on the toilet she burst in and said "excuse me for wanting you to get closer to God!!"

Is it such a bad thing for me not to be interested in this aspect of faith? Was her response disproportionate to the situation? I don't want to just go for her sake - religion is a personal decision and it's not as important to me as it is to her. And that should be OK!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

father_of_2 said:


> Please allow me to vent a bit. I'm not sure what to do anymore. I am seriously contemplating whether to end the marriage...
> 
> Long story short, my wife has been experiencing delusions that my brother's wife and now my best friend's wife are out to get her, to bring her down, to "berate" her in public, steal her phone, etc. It has escalated into her saying that I don't support her because I don't believe the delusions - that I'm "taking up for them" instead of sticking up for her. There were little glimpses of this kind of distorted thinking a couple times in the first year of our marriage, but none between then and summer of 2016. She had 4 miscarriages, lost her grandmother (and mine), quit jobs, and then went into this mode.
> 
> ...


*Well beyond time for you to load both your daughters up, and flee that toxic environment! Needless to say, it isn’t good for you or for their well being! 

Go see a good experienced family attorney and get temporary custody of them all while the separation/divorce scenario plays itself out in the courtroom!

Sorry to see you in this most unfortunate predicament but you’ve come to the absolute best place to air your concerns here at TAM!*


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

We're not qualified to diagnose her, but she's clearly becoming unhinged.

Will it take her hurling objects at the kids for you to take action?

If COURSE she will be resistant to seeing a medical professional if you ASK. That's why you must SHOW her with actions that she IS GOING to see a medical professional. She's unable to make the best decision for her health.

She is dillusional.

You must ADVOCATE.


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