# I haven't cheated yet but I need help with what I should do with my marriage.



## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

This post might get kind of lengthy but there is a lot that I want to say in order to get the best advice that I can get. I’ve been reading here for a few months now and I know this is where I’ll end up if I end up cheating on my wife. I really want to avoid that but I’m not sure how much longer I can hold out. 
I’ll start from the beginning. At the age of 20, I was working in a foreign country. I met my wife while she was there on a work visa. We hit it off immediately. Our relationship pretty much consisted of partying and sex. I barely knew her though at the time, that didn’t bother me. I was young and stupid and thought the key to finding a good wife was to get the one with the best t*ts and a$$. 

Our relationship only went on for around 2 months before I had to come back to the states. I really missed her but I think I really missed all the sex. She was the most beautiful woman that I ever dated and I was young and stupid. Before I left, I asked her to marry me and she said yes. I started her process and she was here in America with me after around 7 months. 
Life was good at first. She spoke a decent amount of English but it didn’t bother me much then. She wasn’t working so we pretty much just went out and had sex when I wasn’t at work. I actually enjoyed it and felt that I had a trophy wife.

After 2 years, we welcomed our first son who is now 7. We also have another son that will turn 2 soon. Now here is where the problem starts. WE ARE NOT COMPATIABLE AT ALL!!! I mean really, we have almost nothing in common. We don’t like the same types of movies, we are not into the same activities, and we don’t have the same types of friends. I've always wanted her to have her own identity but she tries too hard to gravitate towards what I like. If we go out to eat, I always get to choose the place. I want her to have her own mind and voice. We don’t even practice the same religion. She is Christian and I was Christian at one point of my life. Once I got older, I decided that I do not believe in God and I do not support Christianity although I do believe in some type of higher power. Also, sex has changed a great deal. She used to do anything sexually that I asked but now she doesn’t. She does not want to give blow jobs anymore because she says it’s disgusting. We don’t do doggy style anymore because she says it is painful. I’m so sexually frustrated that I can’t even get it up for her anymore. Trust me, that’s saying a lot since she is a very beautiful person. She constantly has guys trying to hit on her and I only bring that up to prove that she is very attractive.

For a long time, I’ve tried to mold her into the woman that I wanted her to be. She speaks English pretty well but her reading and writing is pretty bad. If I had to guess, I would say that she reads and writes on a 5th grade level. I’ve tried putting her in college courses and that hasn’t helped. The first time, I was stupid and did all the work for her. I wrote all her essays for her English class and she got an A. However, she didn’t learn anything at all and pretty much relied on me. She is currently taking classes and it pisses me off when she pretends to be tired during the week and then when the assignment is finally due, she pesters me to help her with it and I end up pretty much doing it for her.

Money: I grew up under the assumption that a man should pay for everything. She’s been working since 2006 and contributes very little if anything to bills. At first, it didn’t bother me but as I’ve gotten older, it’s really getting to me. I see how other women treat their husbands and how things are split equally. All my wife pays is the electric bill which is $150 a month. I pay all of the other bills included house note, insurance, food, diapers, etc… Even then, she complains if the electric bill is over $150 per month. 

Present: There’s a woman that I’ve been talking to. She is younger than me but pretty attractive. She’s made it evident that she is interested in me but I’ve been trying to keep my distance. She is very smart and is currently in medical school. She knows that I’m married and that I have a ton of issues with my wife. We have not have sex or even went out yet but I can definitely see both of those things happening in the future. Even if things didn’t work out between me and this woman, I’m actually intrigued that I could potentially be with someone like this who could make me happy. Someone who is smart and wouldn’t mind supporting the family financially. I’ve been having sexual fantasies about this other woman and in these fantasies, I see myself doing things to her that I wish I could do with my wife. I know that if I was happy in my marriage, I wouldn’t be having these fantasies.

So here I am. What should I do? I would feel like an absolute ******* if I told my wife that I’m divorcing her. She is happy and the kids are happy. I’ve given her this life and I would be taking it away from them. There’s no way she could afford this house by herself so she would have to move somewhere smaller or move back to her country with the kids. I love both my sons but I feel that I deserve to be happy too. I know that if I keep talking to this other woman, we will end up having sex and getting more serious. My wife now has no intention of bettering herself and she seems like she would be happy being beautiful and illiterate for the rest of her life. Still, that’s my fault because I married her and brought her here for all the wrong reasons. Should I just accept the fact that I will be forced to lie in this bed for the rest of my life or should I try to pursue my own happiness even if it means that my wife and kids won’t live as comfortably as before? By the way, I’m around 29 years old and my wife is a couple years younger.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is no way that you should cheat. Cheating is about as stupid as it gets.

You are not happy with your wife.

Your wife is not here to speak for herself or defend herself. So I'm going to take your ranting against with a grain of salt.

For example, she says that doggy style hurts. Well it might. She's had children and thing can happen. You make no mention of any concern for her at all.

Does your wife know how you feel about her? If she did she would probably be devastated.

My suggestion is that you get into some individual counseling to truly explore if this is a phase and if you can work through all this. Maybe also read the book "His Needs, Her Needs" as well.

Your life is not guaranteed to be better if you do hook up with a woman like the medical student. I have news for you about medical students. They dump the people they date/marry once they are done with their residency... been there done that. You will be beneath her once she's done with her training. she will be talking about you in the same way you talk about your wife.

The grass is always greener on the other side.. till you get there.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> There is no way that you should cheat. Cheating is about as stupid as it gets.
> 
> You are not happy with your wife.
> 
> ...


No my wife does not know how I feel because if I told her everything I posted here, I know it will be the end of our relationship. She does know about the various things that I'm unhappy with such as money but we end up fighting about it when I bring it up. We've tried counseling twice and both times, she decided to quit after a couple sessions because she didn't think that someone else telling us what to do could help us.

I don't think I will run off with the medical student and live happily ever after. It's just talking to her has opened my eyes to the fact that I could be with someone who has common interests, satisfies me sexually, and is an all around smart individual. Right now, I'm getting none of those things in this marriage.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Number one, it is no ones job but your own to make you happy.

Two, if this other woman is willing to be with you, as a cheater, what does that say about her?
What values must she have? What value do you show? Not much in either case.

Three, what does it say about you, if you're willing to cheat. You say you've been reading here for sometime. You say you are intelligent. Does your intelligence include reading comprehension? Have you read one single story here about infidelity that resulted in an improved situation because of the infidelity? No, you haven't, because it doesn't fix things. It makes them infinitely worse. 

It is wretched, and horrible, and it has incredibly far reaching consequenses, that you'll never think of as you try to justify your actions.

Don't mention your sons as you contemplate infidelity, you selfish prick. If you cheat on your wife, you cheat them too, don't kid yourself, and don't bull**** us. 

There is no justification for cheating. Don't blame your wife, it has nothing to do with her. It is all about you. So if things are so bad, change you. If its about sex, what are you doing to turn her on? Enough? How do you know? Do you actually ask her?

About her reading and writing, rather than do it for her, try doing it with her. Get her to read to you for a while each day. 15 minutes or half an hour. Help her. Build some common ground together.

If you really believe its hopeless though, you get a divorce, and finish it before you start up with anyone else. That's far less painful for everyone than betrayal.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Remember that generally, each spouse is 50% responsible for the state of the marriage.

What are you doing that diminishes your marriage? How much time a week do you spend with your wife, just the two of you doing date-like things? It takes 15 hours a week of quality time with our wife to maintain the passion/love in a marriage. Do you date your wife?

Take a look at each issue and see if there is a way to improve each one.. one at a time. Finances. 
Get the book “His Needs, Her Needs”, read it, get her to read it. Then talk about your needs and her needs and how to fill them. When it comes to finances talk about how you need more of a financial partnership.

One way to work this is to put all income into a joint account. Put some in savings, pay the bills and then the two of you split what is left over. That way you both get exactly the same amount of spending money each month. That might go over better than asking her to pay more bills. This way it’s equal and fair. A good book to read on finances is “Smart Couples Finish Rich”. It might help if the two of you read it.

I’m not against divorce if there are things like abuse in a marriage. But often times, divorce does not solve problems, it just cause more of them. Throw an affair or two into the mix and life becomes hell. 

You have told us about your wife’s flaws. We know that you have flaws as well. What would your wife say are your flaws? What do you say your flaws are?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Reading your second post, get your head out of your ass, and start being honest with your wife. What, is she supposed to be psychic, and just know exactly what your problems are?

Be trustworthy (by being honest), and be trusting. She gets to make her own decisions. Not telling her the truth is manipulative, and controlling, and will fail. You cannot control other people. You need to do a better job of controlling yourself, let alone anyone else.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cheating is a very bad move. If divorcing your wife will hurt horribly, cheating will not make her feel good either if she discovers it. If she doesn't discover it, you will still know the truth, i.e., that your moral character is defective.

You don't need your sons growing up and saying that when he was 8 dad cheated on mom and they got divorced as the introduction to the how-my-troubles-began saga.

You resent your wife but do you not love her?

Doggy style is fun, but there are many other positions. Won't she do reverse cowgirl on demand?

Do you think you can change all the aspects of her behavior that irritate you at once. Perhaps you should put the school up first. If she does better in school, she may be more likely to get a better job.

You ought to use MC to discuss your marriage but without ultimatums. After all you enabled some of the negatives here.

What is good about your wife? Does she treat you well at all?

Are you ashamed that she is not educated and cultured and never will be?


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

SadandAngry said:


> Number one, it is no ones job but your own to make you happy.
> 
> Two, if this other woman is willing to be with you, as a cheater, what does that say about her?
> What values must she have? What value do you show? Not much in either case.
> ...


I really don't want to cheat and that's why I'm here. I'm only human and going through my day to day trials, I find myself becoming tempted to do something that I shouldn't. We've been married for almost a decade and I've never cheated. Now, I just feel like my body is tired and I want to feel loved again. Honestly, I feel that she is comfortable with our arrangement and is doing nothing to help the marriage. 

For sex, I don't bother trying to push her anymore. I can kiss her and tell her how beautiful she is all day. At the end of the day, I end up getting turned off because she doesn't pleasure me when we have sex and she doesn't want to do any of the things that I enjoy sexually. All she does during sex is complain.

There's an old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. I've tried sitting down with her every day to try to work on her skills but she doesn't really seem interested. During the day, she's at work. When the kids are finally asleep at around 9 or 10, she is more interested in going to bed or watching TV. When she needs to send an email at work, she texts/calls me and asks me what she should write. It doesn't bother me until the next time she asks about another email and some of the questions are the same exact questions that she asked before. I just feel that I'm her crutch and she feels that as long as I'm around, she won't have to stand on her own 2 feet. I'm not trying to make fun of her or talk down on her. I personally know people that came to this country and learned things that even people born here have trouble with. I know that if she applied herself, she could do it but as I said, she is uninterested.


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## tainted (Aug 16, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I don't think I will run off with the medical student and live happily ever after. It's just talking to her has opened my eyes to the fact that I could be with someone who has common interests, *satisfies me sexually*, and is an all around smart individual. Right now, I'm getting none of those things in this marriage.


And you know that for a fact? 

Doesn't matter if a women is smart, beautify or how well you two get along, if she is flirting with a married man then she has no morals.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Remember that generally, each spouse is 50% responsible for the state of the marriage.
> 
> What are you doing that diminishes your marriage? How much time a week do you spend with your wife, just the two of you doing date-like things? It takes 15 hours a week of quality time with our wife to maintain the passion/love in a marriage. Do you date your wife?
> 
> ...


I'm sure I do have flaws too. The difference is that I actually try to work on my flaws. If she tells me I stink, I take a shower instead of telling her to deal with it. I think this is why I have so much resentment in my heart. Every issue in this thread, we've discussed at different times, if she put it all together, she would see that I'm at the end of my rope.

Also, a joint account doesn't work for us. She likes to spend money on things that she doesn't need. I like to budget and save for a rainy day. She is the type that may go out and buy a $180 pair of shoes from a store. I can't afford to try to pay a bill and not have enough because she overspent. Believe me, I'd love to have a joint account but it just isn't happening. Since I've always paid the bills and took care of her, she is under the impression that money grows on trees for me.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Cheating is a very bad move. If divorcing your wife will hurt horribly, cheating will not make her feel good either if she discovers it. If she doesn't discover it, you will still know the truth, i.e., that your moral character is defective.
> 
> You don't need your sons growing up and saying that when he was 8 dad cheated on mom and they got divorced as the introduction to the how-my-troubles-began saga.
> 
> ...


I know that I've enabled some of this behavior and that part has me feeling like I can't go even if I wanted to. She is good in a lot of ways. She takes care of the kids exceptionally well. She cooks and keeps a very neat house. As far as her literacy, it is sort of embarrassing sometimes. My 7 year old often comes home from school with words that she doesn't' even know. She makes no conscious effort to try to learn them because I'm here. I don't know what she would do if I wasn't here.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I really don't want to cheat and that's why I'm here. I'm only human and going through my day to day trials, I find myself becoming tempted to do something that I shouldn't. We've been married for almost a decade and I've never cheated. Now, I just feel like my body is tired and I want to feel loved again. Honestly, I feel that she is comfortable with our arrangement and is doing nothing to help the marriage.
> 
> For sex, I don't bother trying to push her anymore. I can kiss her and tell her how beautiful she is all day. At the end of the day, I end up getting turned off because she doesn't pleasure me when we have sex and *she doesn't want to do any of the things that I enjoy sexually.* All she does during sex is complain.
> 
> There's an old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. I've tried sitting down with her every day to try to work on her skills but she doesn't really seem interested. During the day, she's at work. When the kids are finally asleep at around 9 or 10, she is more interested in going to bed or watching TV. When she needs to send an email at work, she texts/calls me and asks me what she should write. It doesn't bother me until the next time she asks about another email and some of the questions are the same exact questions that she asked before. I just feel that I'm her crutch and she feels that as long as I'm around, she won't have to stand on her own 2 feet. I'm not trying to make fun of her or talk down on her. I personally know people that came to this country and learned things that even people born here have trouble with. I know that if she applied herself, she could do it but as I said, she is uninterested.


Yeah I bolded the sex part but this is so much more about other stuff as well.
Where exactly does she work that requires her to send emails and communicates when she seems to have such poor reading and writing skills?

This seems to be a big mess. You're frustrated with her lack of needing to better her skills, even though you might not mean it you'd be coming off as a bit of a nag. Imagine nag nag nag, the resentment will not be hard to see...*then at the end of it you expect to get laid*

It's not going to happen. She maybe beautiful but constant pressure and feeling of resentment from you isn't exactly going to make her feel sexy and ready to jump in the sack.

You cheat you'll destroy your marriage. You need to sit her down and have a very serious chat about you and her future. She needs to put more effort. Anything less is really a non starter. 

She might also be dyslexic or have learning problems, who knows, I'm just throwing it out there. But the path you are currently on cannot continue, this is more than just the sex, until the underlining issues are addressed, this will not get better, and you will end up doing something you'll regret.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

OP, you are a stupid a** that maybe has come to see the light of truth about your relation. Now your first job is to try to see the light of truth about yourself.

The problem is not her, the relation, or the wonderful alternatives in this world.

The problem is YOU.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Everything I've read here points more to you having issues than any problems your wife may or not have. Seems to me you have a loving wife that really tries hard to please you and all you can do is complain. How involved are you in taking care of the children? How involved are you in household chores? You seem to want your wife to change in so many ways. Does she even have the time or the energy to do these things? It sounds to me that you are just looking for excuses to dump your wife rather than accept her as an individual and grow with her.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

bfree said:


> Everything I've read here points more to you having issues than any problems your wife may or not have. Seems to me you have a loving wife that really tries hard to please you and all you can do is complain. How involved are you in taking care of the children? How involved are you in household chores? You seem to want your wife to change in so many ways. Does she even have the time or the energy to do these things? It sounds to me that you are just looking for excuses to dump your wife rather than accept her as an individual and grow with her.


I'm curious as to what part of my post points to the fact that I'm the one with the problem. Everything I've said here is true. I'm not saying that I don't have my faults because I'm sure there are things in this marriage that she wants me to work on. Are you saying that the reason why the sex isn't great and that she's lazy is all my fault? Should she take any sort of responsibility in this marriage or is everything on my shoulders because I'm a man?

To answer your other question, I'm very involved in household chores. I do help with the cleaning and I do all the landscaping myself. I take my son to school on a regular basis and I pay his tuition for after school care. Whenever I ask her to help pay for that, she gets an attitude with me.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> I'm curious as to what part of my post points to the fact that I'm the one with the problem. Everything I've said here is true. I'm not saying that I don't have my faults because I'm sure there are things in this marriage that she wants me to work on. Are you saying that the reason why the sex isn't great and that she's lazy is all my fault? Should she take any sort of responsibility in this marriage or is everything on my shoulders because I'm a man?
> 
> To answer your other question, I'm very involved in household chores. I do help with the cleaning and I do all the landscaping myself. I take my son to school on a regular basis and I pay his tuition for after school care. Whenever I ask her to help pay for that, she gets an attitude with me.


Ok, let's break this down.

You knew English wasn't her first language. You say you knew she spoke English "pretty well." Now you complain that she reads and writes English at a 5th grade level. Does she read and write at a 5th grade level in her own language? It certainly doesn't sound like she's stupid. What did you expect?

You complain that she doesn't do certain sexual positions any more. Maybe there is a reason? But since you've never really had an in depth conversation with her you don't know do you? But you ARE having sex, just not the type of sex YOU want. If you don't talk to her what are you expecting?

You complain that she doesn't pay for anything except the electric bill. Yet you built your relationship on the fact that you were going to pay for everything since you admit that's how you grew up and that's what you've both been doing all along. So you set the framework and then complain about it?

You say you've been working to make her the woman you want her to be. Why should she entirely change herself for you? Maybe she likes who she is? Maybe she believes that you fell in love with the woman she is because that is exactly what happened. Now you want her to change? Why don't you change to be more like her? Why don't you change to be more like the man she wants you to be?

You are looking for excuses to cheat on her. She is not trying to change you. It sounds like she is happy being who she is and she is happy with the way things are? That is the reason I say that the problem here is all you. You are the one that is dissatisfied with things and yet you don't even have the [email protected] to tell her what you are feeling. You are asking us to help you to not cheat on your wife but at the same time you are looking for reasons to step out on her. You are making covert contracts that cause you to be resentful of her and afraid of her at the same time. You have "Nice Guy Syndrome." You need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. The problem is not with your wife. The problem is with you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Hold on. OP has right to be dissatisfied. He has not cheated but sought advice to deal with the urge. This a positive step.

Is the marriage salvagable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Hold on. OP has right to be dissatisfied. He has not cheated but sought advice to deal with the urge. This a positive step.
> 
> Is the marriage salvagable?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is he dissatisfied or fogging because he's lusting after another woman. We've seen it so much that WS's demonize their husbands/wives to justify cheating. Isn't that exactly what he's doing here. By his own admission his wife is exactly what she was when he fell in love with her. So what is it other than fog thinking. And I beg to differ but it seems to me he's already in an EA with this other woman. So the dopamine has already started to flow and he's reacting just like any other cheater.

Edited to add: Their son is now 7. 7 year itch?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

ozzzy said:


> *No my wife does not know how I feel because if I told her everything I posted here, I know it will be the end of our relationship*. She does know about the various things that I'm unhappy with such as money but we end up fighting about it when I bring it up. We've tried counseling twice and both times, she decided to quit after a couple sessions because she didn't think that someone else telling us what to do could help us.
> 
> I don't think I will run off with the medical student and live happily ever after. It's just talking to her has opened my eyes to the fact that I could be with someone who has common interests, satisfies me sexually, and is an all around smart individual. Right now, I'm getting none of those things in this marriage.


If you are wanting the relationship to end, why don't you just tell her everything you posted here? She can either make some positive changes to better the marriage, or she can go.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

Ozzzy - how do you feel about plainly explaining to your wife that you are unhappy and thinking of divorce. 

If you have not already done this it could be the spur to make her sit up and take notice and work WITH you to improve things. My gut feeling is that you are a couple who have the potential to be happy and contented TOGETHER, but is gonna take some alot of self awareness and work but it'll be well worth it.

Whatever happens, don't cheat. Get divorced before you get with other women.

Meanwhile stop all contact with the woman you are tempted to cheat with so you can think more clearly.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

She's not illiterate or dyslexic. English is her second language. 5th grade language skills for a second language is pretty damn good. Instead of college courses, has she enrolled in any ESL courses at the local community college? 

She works full time, comes home to two young children. She takes an interest in the same TV shows you like, lets you pick the restaurant. Sounds like she wants to please you. Talk with her about your expectations. What do you need from her? And vice versa. You owe it to her to be open and honest with her in regards to your needs and expectations. When you proposed to her after a few months of knowing her, it was a de facto invitation that she would move to a foreign land, and you would take care of her. 

Did you feel this way before you met Dr. Hot Stuff? Sometimes when we meet someone new and they have that new car smell we then look for faults on the older model.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Hold on. OP has right to be dissatisfied. He has not cheated but sought advice to deal with the urge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of COURSE he has the right to be dissatisfied. But he DOESN'T have the right to blame HER for his dissatisfaction, especially since he really hasn't communicated his dissatisfaction to her.

OP, look at your own thinking/behavior FIRST before you start blaming your wife for your unhappiness. You met a woman over a decade ago. You were "young and stupid" as you say, and it looks like you married her based on an attraction that you believed (at the time) to be love. 

But being attracted to someone does NOT automatically mean that we 'love' them, or that we should go riding into the sunset together, and look forward to a life filled with fun and sex. 

This whole mess began with your own stupidity. You seemed to lack enough maturity back then, and you STILL seem to lack it NOW, just based on what you've written. 

I'm going to suggest you get YOURSELF into some decent _individual_ counseling, but whatever you do, stop blaming HER for your choices and DO NOT CHEAT! 

Vega


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Stepping back, I see this as a guy who married the pretty, shiny thing he saw and now it's not quite as shiny anymore.

Marriage evolves, dude. You can still have hot sex 7+ years into your marriage, but it WILL slow down. Things will settle and eventually your love for the person grows and you learn to appreciate other things about them. 

I do understand your frustrations about her leaning on you too much still, when she's had time to acclimate and learn more. I think you should have a real heart-to-heart with her about that. Tell her that it's hurting your relationship and you really need her to ATTEMPT to be more self-sufficient with that one thing. 

Don't attack her about everything at once. Pick the thing that she can really control and do something about.

Confident people feel sexy. When she was in her own country, she was in her element, and confident. Now, she's always second guessing herself and probably feels dumb. You want more and better sex? Encourage her to be more independent and confident.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Dude, you don't want a wife, you want an entertainment source. 

Here is the reality about relationships: a new partner is always more exciting than a familiar one, because newness in itself stimulates excitement. However, if you make excitement your number one priority you'll just end up bouncing from person to person. In the end you get sick of the shallowness and long for deep connection again. This is why movie stars and rock stars get married. They can have sex with a new partner every day, yet they still marry and have kids. Why? Because excitement is trumped by deep connection. 

Therefore, the only way you will overcome this rut and the temptation of someone new is to build your connection with your wife. You will never be able to compare the excitement you get with your wife with the excitement of a new partner and have your wife win, so don't even try. Doing that will just lead to justification for cheating. 

I'll say it again: the only way out of this that will lead to a better place for you is to build a stronger connection with your wife. This is your one and only good solution. End of story.



ozzzy said:


> I just feel that I'm her crutch and she feels that as long as I'm around, she won't have to stand on her own 2 feet.


You're her husband. I bet she is from a more traditional culture and she expects her husband to, you know, be a _husband_ instead of a FWB whom he lives with. Look at her father for inspiration of the sort of man she might expect. If he's not a great example, check out strong male role models from her own culture. Get a bit of her perspective. 



ozzzy said:


> I personally know people that came to this country and learned things that even people born here have trouble with. I know that if she applied herself, she could do it but as I said, she is uninterested.


She has interests. Engage her in the things she is genuinely interested in, instead of trying to mold her. She's not your employee to train up.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Secondly, she gave up everything to start a new life with you—family, friends, familiarity. All of her childhood memories are from somewhere else. She is raising kids away from her home support network. Her children are growing up in a different culture to her own, in a society with different priorities and values. 

Do you have any idea how much these things mean for a woman? Think about that for a while.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

OP you sound like a woman. Quit whining. 

You married this woman for the T&A. Either own that and the consequences (incompatibility) or tell her you can't make it work and give her a fair divorce. Don't be a I3itch and cheat. Be direct and honest.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

At least you came on here before you cheated as you said yourself.

However you are in fact cheating. You are in an EA - it just hasn't gone PA yet. You are one of those people who thinks an EA isn't cheating. It is. Look up emotional affairs. You tick all the boxes. 

I'm going to be honest about the impression I got from what you wrote. It is only my opinion but I'm going to give it to you straight. 

Truth is you are not in love with your wife and you haven't been for a long time. 

Do you think she doesn't know? Do you think that might be connected with the fact that she's not attracted to you now? Or do you think she is too dumb to see it?

You didn't have one good thing to say about her except for her looks. There was a deep disrespect in what you said. You spoke about her looks, the sex and the partying, the 'trophy wife', her illiteracy, the fact that she doesn't pay more bills, choose restaurants etc

You thought you deserved better a long time ago. And so you tried mould her into someone else. You imposed all your own standards on her. It's no wonder she goes to classes and then gets you to help her. She probably doesn't want to but does it for you instead of for herself. You can't force anyone - you can try. And so what if she doesn't want to "better herself" by your standards. 

But you were young and stupid right? And so was she, I might add. But you continued to be young and stupid and then married her and had children with her? 

So what to do? I cant imagine you falling back in love with your BS even if she put herself through medical school. All the counselling in the world won't do anything unless your BS morphs into the wife you think you deserve. At counselling you would have to be honest and tell her everything that's wrong. Which is a lot. I would ask, what's good about it. 

My feeling is that D is your only option. Yes, you will break your BS's heart and break up the family. But what is the alternative? That your children grow up with a disgruntled Dad who feels he deserves better and grapples to prevent himself having an affair? And a mother who deep down realises that her husband neither loves nor respects her? 

The worst of all possible worlds is if you continue to have an EA. *Break all contact with OW immediately - today.* Tell her you want to work on your marriage though you in fact may be going to work on your divorce. It matters little which it is. If you have any respect for your BS, the mother of your children, regardless of what you feel about her, at least do that. You can pursue OW or any other woman as soon as you are divorced. 

NC will also make you realise what it will be like if you decide to stay. No more secret women friends - ever. 

Once you have done NC, work out the best divorce for your family. What will you do if your BS moves back to her country? Do you think you could persuade her to stay in the U.S.? Can you get a small flat and at least allow your family to stay in the family home? 

I may seem cruel in what I say. I'm not. I'm just stating the reality as I see it. And sometimes marriages fail. In fact 50% do and that's just how it is. With that comes a lot of pain. But the only way to make it worse is to have a 3rd person in your marriage. Which is why NC is the first thing you must do. 

Also consider if you found your BS was hanging out with some guy behind your back, spending time with him and discussing your marriage with him and wanting to sleep with him while knowing it was only a matter of time until she did?

It's gut-wrenching for the injured party. 

So is there any life left at all in your marriage? Can you really see yourself being in love with BS again and happy, even if she doesn't polish up her English, or get a better job, or suggest restaurants etc? 

That is what you have to decide.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If a woman came an explained that she married a man who did not contribute economically and was unsuccessful in school, probably some would say dump his sorry azz asap. So, don't gloss over the problems in this relationship.

OP,

How did you come into contact with the doctor woman? Is is a work relationship?

If it is outside of work, it counts as a intentional EA that you must end immediately.

If it is at work, that may be more complicated. But avoid anything but professional contact. 

Get into your hobbies, work out and socialize with and without your wife. By socializing I don't mean dating. 

Listen to your wife when she talks repeat what says back so that she knows you got it. Do not help her pass tests or otherwise enable her dependent behavior. If she fails, tell her it is not good. But do not lecture her. Keep your communication spartan and effective, be a leader.

Be a leader in bed. Start seducing her. Make her feel you are almost a new guy. One who wants her.

If she rejects you, eventually you need to go to MC. When you have made a real effort, then you can explore the idea of divorce.

Also, imagine life without her. Does she love you? Do you love her. If you are dead inside, then you must divorce but don't assume divorce is going resolve everything.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I've always wanted her to have her own identity but she tries too hard to gravitate towards what I like. If we go out to eat, I always get to choose the place. I want her to have her own mind and voice. We don’t even practice the same religion. She is Christian and I was Christian at one point of my life. Once I got older, I decided that I do not believe in God and I do not support Christianity although I do believe in some type of higher power.
> 
> For a long time, I’ve tried to mold her into the woman that I wanted her to be.


Sounds like youre talking out of both sides your mouth my man. Perhaps you want a woman with her "own identity" as long as she follows your blueprint. Good luck finding that.
In the final analysis, I agree with Bfree. You want to get in this other chicks pants, (the motive), you probably have the opportunity, and you're looking for justification.
The "money" situation is an easy fix. Have three accounts; his, hers, and ours. Work out a deal where you put the general operating expense money in the joint account. Sometimes this arrangement may require a little persuasion, if you know what I mean, on the part of spouse the previously having the least discretionary funds after the bills are taken care of.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

ozzzy said:


> No my wife does not know how I feel because if I told her everything I posted here, I know it will be the end of our relationship.


Then tell her everything you posted here, and let it be the end of the relationship. If you're going to cheat, it's going to be the end of the relationship anyway.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> If a woman came an explained that she married a man who did not contribute economically and was unsuccessful in school, probably some would say dump his sorry azz asap. So, don't gloss over the problems in this relationship.


If a woman came on TAM and told us she married a guy who was an unemployed bum and flunked out of school but married him anyway I would tell her she got what she should have.

But that isn't the case here. The OP went into this relationship with an expectation of supporting his wife in every way. He admits that this was how he was raised and how he was when they married. Now he wants to change that dynamic? Ok, but don't sit here and complain about it. Talk with her and work WITH HER to change the dynamic. As for school, this woman came to a foreign country that speaks another language and is having difficulty in school. Wow, what a surprise! She wasn't in school when they met. Maybe she doesn't even want to go to school? Maybe that's all his idea? Maybe he should talk to her?

See that's the problem. He's not talking to her. He's looking for reasons to cheat on her. I find that unacceptable.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

bfree said:


> Ok, let's break this down.
> 
> You knew English wasn't her first language. You say you knew she spoke English "pretty well." Now you complain that she reads and writes English at a 5th grade level. Does she read and write at a 5th grade level in her own language? It certainly doesn't sound like she's stupid. What did you expect?
> 
> ...


I'm not looking for a reason to cheat. You are right that I enabled most if not all of this behavior. As for her native language, she reads and writes it very well. None of that matters here because we don't speak her native tongue. Maybe I see this differently than you, but I feel that from the amount of time she has been in this country, (around 10 years), she should be reading and writing a whole lot better than she is. Who doesn't find someone smart to be attractive? Not only do I want her to do this for me, but I want her to do this for herself! What if I died tomorrow? She would have no choice but to move in another man to help her because she is used to depending on someone else for everything in life. 

I know that I enabled this but all of this wasn't an issue when for me when we tied the knot. We barely knew each other and both took a big risk. She trusted me to leave her family and come here to start a new life. I've even helped her bring her sister and mother here. She had more to gain by coming here since her native country is considered "3rd world". I often ask myself why did she marry me. Was it the sex or was it something else? I do love her but I totally regret marrying her after only a couple months of dating.

I agree with everything you said other than I'm looking for an excuse to cheat. I've given her a life that I no longer want to keep up. I want a partner, not a crutch. I'm a different man than I was 10 years ago and I would easily prefer a average looking woman who held me down versus a perfect 10 that is dependent on her looks to get her through life. Also, I've picked up the book that you suggested and I'll be starting it tonight.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

bfree said:


> If a woman came on TAM and told us she married a guy who was an unemployed bum and flunked out of school but married him anyway I would tell her she got what she should have.
> 
> But that isn't the case here. The OP went into this relationship with an expectation of supporting his wife in every way. He admits that this was how he was raised and how he was when they married. Now he wants to change that dynamic? Ok, but don't sit here and complain about it. Talk with her and work WITH HER to change the dynamic. As for school, this woman came to a foreign country that speaks another language and is having difficulty in school. Wow, what a surprise! She wasn't in school when they met. Maybe she doesn't even want to go to school? Maybe that's all his idea? Maybe he should talk to her?
> 
> See that's the problem. He's not talking to her. He's looking for reasons to cheat on her. I find that unacceptable.


We've talked about these things in pieces but not everything as a whole. It's very hard for me to be an ******* now because she is very happy in my life. Whenever I try to come down hard on her about school, she used the excuse of being tired from work and the kids. That's not an excuse for me because she makes time to go out with her friends or watch her favorite TV shows. I'm thinking about just asking her to come to marriage counseling with me (for the 3rd time) and presenting her with an ultimatum.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She's not illiterate or dyslexic. English is her second language. 5th grade language skills for a second language is pretty damn good. Instead of college courses, has she enrolled in any ESL courses at the local community college?
> 
> She works full time, comes home to two young children. She takes an interest in the same TV shows you like, lets you pick the restaurant. Sounds like she wants to please you. Talk with her about your expectations. What do you need from her? And vice versa. You owe it to her to be open and honest with her in regards to your needs and expectations. When you proposed to her after a few months of knowing her, it was a de facto invitation that she would move to a foreign land, and you would take care of her.
> 
> Did you feel this way before you met Dr. Hot Stuff? Sometimes when we meet someone new and they have that new car smell we then look for faults on the older model.


ESL courses? Lol! I've talked about those courses until I turned blue in the face. She never wanted to take those because she felt she didn't need it (she also has a friend that told her that the course was a waste of time). The only courses she has taken is at our local community college and I helped her pass all of them. The only one she failed was math and that was because the final was at the school.

And yes, I felt this way before I met "Dr. Hot Stuff". I've just tried to suppress these feelings and hope that things get better. I've tried to stick around for the kids but now, things are starting to come out of me and I don't know how much longer I can go through with this. Maybe it is the new car smell or the fog that I keep reading about. All I want is for me wife to get off her ass and become my equal.

I'm not asking her to become a surgeon. I want her to pay her share of the bills and put out sexually like someone her age should. It's not fair for one partner to live happily and comfortable while the other is unhappy and stressed out.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

I am sorry, but who the f'ck do you think you are? YOU are going to give your wife an ultimatum? YOU who is talking to another woman about your marital issues? YOU who is lusting after said other woman? YOU that is pulling the ol bait n switch? 

Your wife was good enough to f'ck and good enough to marry, but now she just doesn't cut it? 

You know what? Do your wife a favor and divorce her so she can meet a guy that won't pull her apart to justify him lusting after someone else in his head, m'kay.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Ok, so your wife isn't "illiterate" at all. Only deficient in English. But speaks and writes her native tongue beautifully. This is a far cry from being an uneducated illiterate.

You have made your bed. Either lie in it, or get out. It's that simple.

But quit portraying your wife in a bad light. She has done nothing wrong. As for the lack of doggie-style (and all the other positions you miss) flip her over and TAKE her. I have a strong feeling she will actually enjoy it. Quit p*ssy-footing over your sex life as an excuse to screw the female doc.

And quit whining.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

********** said:


> At least you came on here before you cheated as you said yourself.
> 
> However you are in fact cheating. You are in an EA - it just hasn't gone PA yet. You are one of those people who thinks an EA isn't cheating. It is. Look up emotional affairs. You tick all the boxes.
> 
> ...


You pretty much told my life story and I can't deny it. I was hoping I could find a good reason to try to salvage our marriage but it appears that things most likely won't change. I'll probably try to break contact with the OM but I mainly just want to make a decision on my marriage. I'm going to suggest that we go to marriage counseling and then I will present her with an ultimatum. If she loves me than she will accept it. Otherwise, we have to go separate ways. It hurts for me to think about it but she has to be on her own for a while to understand what I've been going through all these years trying to keep our household going.

If I knew she was talking to other men behind my back, I would be pretty upset. There were a few times (mostly the first couple years that she arrived here) that she had inappropriate conversations with other men. Our marriage was so new that none of the current issues we have could have been the cause. Still, I chose to keep her and build a life together.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Oh and P.S. Ozzy, after having children, doggy style can be painful closer to the cervix area, so she isn't full of it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Since you have love for her still give her a chance. Who knows in MC she may reveal that she wants to dumb you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> We've talked about these things in pieces but not everything as a whole. It's very hard for me to be an ******* now because she is very happy in my life. Whenever I try to come down hard on her about school, she used the excuse of being tired from work and the kids. That's not an excuse for me because she makes time to go out with her friends or watch her favorite TV shows. I'm thinking about just asking her to come to marriage counseling with me (for the 3rd time) and presenting her with an ultimatum.


Going out with friends and watching TV is not "working." It's relaxation. And asking her to replace all of her relaxation time with more work (school) is extremely unreasonable. That's why I asked if you were involved in the child rearing and household chores. She works and takes care of the children and you expect her to go to school....wow. Maybe if you took over ALL the child rearing and ALL the household chores maybe then she wouldn't be so tired and she would not only do better at school but she might actually want to go.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Well I guess on observation would be that your posts seem very focused on you...you...and your wants, needs and desires. How you have tried to change her to be the women you want her to be. It may be just the way you writing but you sound very selfish and immature. Going outside your marriage to solve your problems is only going to create more problems. Your wife can't work on her issues if you don't let her know what the are and how serious you are..she is not a mind reader. If my hubby was always complaining about me and wanting to change me ....I wouldn't feel to loved...I would feel used. Have you asked her how she feels ...have you tried figuring out what went wrong in your relationship? 

Honestly looks more like your busy planning your exit and trying to justify it to yourself. You say you don't want to cheat...then man up and don't. Deal with your marriage. You cannot change other people, you can though focus on yourself and how you have contributed to the breakdown of your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I don't think I will run off with the medical student and live happily ever after. It's just talking to her has opened my eyes to the fact that I could be with someone who has common interests, satisfies me sexually, and is an all around smart individual. Right now, I'm getting none of those things in this marriage.


Holy blind spot Batman.

:wtf:


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

How do you know Dr. Hot Stuff would satisfy you sexually?

She may be smart and beautiful, but could be lousy in bed. Are we sure you haven't taken a test drive?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Wow! The contempt that OP has for his foreign wife is appalling. She would be lucky if he left her for Ms. Doctor. What a d!ckwad!

My parents were from a foreign country and my mother was highly educated but spoke broken English with poor grammar her entire life. Why don't you try learning a foreign language, OP, and see how far you advance. People over 20 yo learning a foreign language have difficulty achieving beyond 8th grade level.

Your wife takes loving care of your kids; they are at a highly demanding age requiring lots of attention and energy from their caregiver. I could barely get meals going and clean up when my kids were that age, let alone try to "better" myself making more money and learning a foreign language.

She keeps a lovely home for you, tries to please you by learning your interests, but that not good enough for you. How much you take for granted, OP . How entitled you are! Ugh! She deserves better than you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You are re-inventing the history of your marriage and your wife. Why? So you can justify cheating on her and your boys.

You seem to think she is stupid. Well, you pulled the wool over her eyes, by pretending to be something you are not, so maybe you have a point?:scratchhead: Really? No. Not really. She isn't stupid.

*Get yourself sorted out, dude. Start being the husband and father you should be.*

She and your boys deserve better treatment from you. No cheating. Which includes stopping your whiny little: "My stupid foreign wife doesn't understand me" EA, OK?

Divorce? Don't leave your kids living in a hovel. You want a divorce? They you give them the lion's share. You volunteer to live in a hovel, you eat noodles, you wear shoes with cardboard insoles and patched clothing.

Why? They didn't ask to be born. You need to be a man.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

bfree said:


> Going out with friends and watching TV is not "working." It's relaxation. And asking her to replace all of her relaxation time with more work (school) is extremely unreasonable. That's why I asked if you were involved in the child rearing and household chores. She works and takes care of the children and you expect her to go to school....wow. Maybe if you took over ALL the child rearing and ALL the household chores maybe then she wouldn't be so tired and she would not only do better at school but she might actually want to go.


I mentioned it before but I do help with the chores. I help with all of the indoor chores and I do all of the outdoor work including the landscaping and little other little things that need fixing around the house. I'm not asking her to give up her social life. I'm asking her to at least dedicate 15 minutes out of her day to learn a new word or to better herself. I hope I'm not coming off as a **** or shallow because I'm not. A good example is last week when she had to do an assignment on plagiarism. I told her what it meant and we went through the assignment together. This week, we were talking about her school work and I asked her what plagiarism meant and she couldn't tell me. I know she is perfectly capable of learning and she is not retarded or slow. I just feel that she is not putting any effort into becoming a better person because I've taught her for so long to just rely on me.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> You are re-inventing the history of your marriage and your wife. Why? So you can justify cheating on her and your boys.
> 
> You seem to think she is stupid. Well, you pulled the wool over her eyes, by pretending to be something you are not, so maybe you have a point?:scratchhead: Really? No. Not really. She isn't stupid.
> 
> ...


If we did divorce, she can have everything. All I would take is my car and my guitars. I just want to be happy, that's all.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> If we did divorce, she can have everything. All I would take is my car and my guitars. I just want to be happy, that's all.


No. Sell your bloody car and your guitars.

You just want to be happy? So... that makes it OK, then, huh? No. Not even close.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ozzzy, there is a person you can talk to that will give you excellent advice. 


show this thread to you wife!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> *I mentioned it before but I do help with the chores.* I help with all of the indoor chores and I do all of the outdoor work including the landscaping and little other little things that need fixing around the house. I'm not asking her to give up her social life. I'm asking her to at least dedicate 15 minutes out of her day to learn a new word or to better herself. I hope I'm not coming off as a **** or shallow because I'm not. A good example is last week when she had to do an assignment on plagiarism. I told her what it meant and we went through the assignment together. This week, we were talking about her school work and I asked her what plagiarism meant and she couldn't tell me. I know she is perfectly capable of learning and she is not retarded or slow. I just feel that she is not putting any effort into becoming a better person because I've taught her for so long to just rely on me.


That's nice. But that's what husbands are supposed to do, isn't it?:scratchhead:

But you sort of made it sound like you are shopping on Amazon for a DIY martyrdom kit.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> That's nice. But that's what husbands are supposed to do, isn't it?:scratchhead:
> 
> But you sort of made it sound like you are shopping on Amazon for a DIY martyrdom kit.



You're right! That's what husbands are supposed to do. I only brought it up since he asked if I helped out around the house. I feel like I'm being beat up here just for being dissatisfied with my marriage. I have not cheated and I wanted to stop things before it got to that point. I'm only human just like everyone else and I make mistakes. I wish you could hear my wife tell this story because she can't deny anything that I wrote.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

You need to have a long,in depth, meaningful, conversation with HER as to what your expectations are. You should also see what hers are.


Bringing in a third party into your marriage is not a solution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OK, wearing my other hat for a moment...

It is possible you might be suffering from a mild depressive illness. But that's outside my field.

You might be blaming your wife because she is there. A case of Nearest Human Syndrome, as I call it. The nearest human gets the blame for everything.

You need to see your doctor and ask him to check you out.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I just feel that she is not putting any effort into becoming a better person because I've taught her for so long to just rely on me.


You knew her language limitations when you you got involved with her... This isn't like a bad habit she picked up after the fact.

You chose your bed, you need to find a way to enjoy sleeping in it dude.

You had 20/20 vision here. No excuses on this one. It's not like she fooled you into thinking her English was 100%.

In my opinion if you KNOW what you are in for going in, you have no right to complain.

It's like a woman complaining that her husband is not tall enough.

Like.. seriously? He can't HIDE that. This isn't like you found out she has a hidden problem. You had full knowledge of this going in.

I really don't think you have any right to complain.

If we were talking about an illness or something that she HID from you yes, but not language challenges.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> OK, wearing my other hat for a moment...
> 
> It is possible you might be suffering from a mild depressive illness. But that's outside my field.
> 
> ...


I think you need to go ahead and put your other hat back on because what you are implying is absurd. It's possible I may have a mental illness because my marriage sucks? Seriously?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I feel like I'm being beat up here just for being dissatisfied with my marriage. I have not cheated and I wanted to stop things before it got to that point.


You are being beaten up because you have an immature problem solving strategy.

The issue is not that you are disatisfied, it's your attitude towards resolving the problems.

You clean your own house up first, metaphorically speaking.

You seem to keep focusing on your wife's house and how messy HERS is.

That's an immature problem solving approach.

Change starts from WITHIN.

What are YOU doing to INSPIRE HER to change?

The idea that you are even THINKING of cheating, that you are making these ridiculous comparisons to women you cannot possibly know as well as you claim to, suggests YOU have a lot in YOU to clean up.

Someone who would even THINK about having an affair has a LOT of maturation to do in a marriage.

YOU have work to do.

My suggestion is that you figure out what is making you make ridiculous apples and oranges comparisons between a wife and a potential mistress. You cannot compare an illicit romantic involvement to a day to day life under the same roof partnership. They are completely different animals.

The grass is always going to be greener on the neighbors lawn. What you need to do is figure out what's wrong with you that makes YOU looking over the fence in the first place.

And NO, it's not HER fault YOU are looking at the neighbors lawn.

You need to figure out what's wrong with YOU that would make YOU even think that would improve this situation.

Anyone who even thinks that way has a lot of work to do in their own yard.



ozzzy said:


> I'm only human just like everyone else and I make mistakes. I wish you could hear my wife tell this story because she can't deny anything that I wrote.


This is just rationalizing before the fact. And again, if this is the excuse you are going to use as to why you think infidelity will do anything other than contaminate your home you have a lot of inner work to do on yourself.

I really think you need to stop worrying about what your wife is or isnt' doing and find out what is wrong with you to make you think the way you do.

Lots of people are dissatisfied with their marriages, most of them don't think infidelity is a solution to that problem.

Most of them realize infidelity and thinking about it is a red flag that you have some problems with you to work on.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> You knew her language limitations when you you got involved with her... This isn't like a bad habit she picked up after the fact.
> 
> You chose your bed, you need to find a way to enjoy sleeping in it dude.
> 
> ...


Right, it's something I knew back when we got married. In my defense, I was young (20) and she was even younger. At the time, we didn't have a house, bills, children, or any of the other things that we have now. We've built all of those things over this marriage and because of this, we've had to evolve mentally and financially to make things work. We both made a bone headed move to get married at such a young age but I don't feel that this gives her a free pass on her responsibilities. The same goes for me too.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> If we did divorce, she can have everything. All I would take is my car and my guitars. I just want to be happy, that's all.


Then find a way to accomplish that within the marriage not without the marriage.

Your wife speaking better English is not going to make you any happier. She's just your scapegoat.

You need to work on you.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

What is her native language?

Do you speak/read/write her native language fluently?


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> You are being beaten up because you have an immature problem solving strategy.
> 
> The issue is not that you are disatisfied, it's your attitude towards resolving the problems.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I agree with everything except for the bolded. I strongly feel that she has driven me to the point that I am now. However, she is the mother of my children and I do love her. I will evaluate myself and fix any faults that I have in this marriage. As for her, I honestly don't know what to do at this point. I feel like I've given so much and I'm not being appreciated because "it's what I'm supposed to do". 

I really wish I can explain this better but it's hard to put into words. I'm sorry that I'm at a place where I feel like infidelity might make me happy but I won't pretend like that's not the place where I currently am. I'm only glad that I found this site before I did anything. Reading through some of the stories here, it's obvious that cheating on my wife would hurt her a lot more than any words that I can tell her. I just wish that she could be my partner and not my crutch. My happiness shouldn't be put on the back burner for her happiness.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

You got married WAY too young. You didn't really know her, but more importantly, YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOURSELF.

Deal with it dude, on the up and up. Don't f*ck the lady doc and then blame it on your wife because her English isn't up to your standards.

Do her a favor; divorce her, give her her freedom (AND spousal support AND child support). 

Then go f*ck the lady doc.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I strongly feel that she has driven me to the point that I am now


Nobody drives anyone, sorry.

You are choosing to look over the fence at the neighbors lawn.

People don't make you do things, you make you do things.

Don't get me wrong, she can certainly contribute to an environment that is more inviting to you, and she can certainly contaminate an environment that is less inviting for you.

But you choose to look over the fence. She's not driving you to do that.

If someone steps on my foot, they aren't driving me to punch them in the nose.

Sorry, that would be my choice in response.

There are more mature responses to that situation, and to yours. Responses that you choose.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> I think you need to go ahead and put your other hat back on because what you are implying is absurd. It's possible I may have a mental illness because my marriage sucks? Seriously?


So, you are denying the possibility that you might have a mild depressive illness? There's no shame in being depressed. But letting it consume your life to the point where you start making bad decisions? That's not wise or helpful.

Your marriage might not suck. Maybe it is all down to you? Do you, perhaps, suck?

You say your wife would agree with all that you wrote? If I were a gambling man I'd bet you £100 that that is almost certainly not the case, that she would not agree with everything you wrote.

But, you can answer that by the simple expedient of inviting her here to CWI.

I'd further bet that her story is considerably different to your story.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I just wish that she could be my partner and not my crutch. My happiness shouldn't be put on the back burner for her happiness.


Did it ever occur to you that she's not a crutch, she's your wife?

Family is a responsibility, a commitment, an obligation.

It's not a crutch, sorry. That's your choice of how to appreciate her or not.

You can choose to appreciate you wife rather than surrender yourself to the idea that she's a crutch.

And what about HER happiness? Why is your happiness the only happiness on the back burner here?

Did it ever occur to you that if SHE posted here she would likely have a laundry list just as long about how you are holding HER back?

You aren't talking about her being a crutch, commitment is weighing heavily on you by the sounds of it.

Welcome to marriage!

The solution is not to END the marriage but to negotiate a better marriage along with her.

I bet you 100 bucks she would have a list of complaints about your marriage as long as yours.

That means you NEGOTIATE these issues, rather than running away from them. Particularly without bailing out on her with someone on your arm while you are running.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Well, here's what I think 

...................


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> We here's what I think
> 
> ...................


I had a **Proper Job, the other afternoon, Headspin.

Just thought I'd mention that.

(*Brewed by the St Austell Brewery.):smthumbup:

We now return you to your regular thread)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy,

How man hours a week does your wife work at her job?

How many hours a week is she putting into school?

What % of your joint income does she earn?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ozzzy, all you have to do is...

show your wife this thread. its simple. 

do that and everything will work itself out.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> So, you are denying the possibility that you might have a mild depressive illness? There's no shame in being depressed. But letting it consume your life to the point where you start making bad decisions? That's not wise or helpful.
> 
> Your marriage might not suck. Maybe it is all down to you? Do you, perhaps, suck?
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised man. The only way she would deny anything is if she flat out lied. I have no reasons to tell any tales here because I'm looking to save my marriage. 

I guess I could have a mental illness, but a more plausible explanation for me is that I'm unsatisfied with my marriage and it's pushing me over the edge. 

And to everyone who says that I need to talk to her, believe me when I say that I've tried. Normally, when I bring up something such as money or sex, it usually ends with her getting defensive and placing the blame on me. For example, when I complain about sexual positions, the response is usually:

"It just hurts"

or

"I don't want to do that"

or my favorite

"That's disgusting"

Does she not know that me going down on her is also ****ing disgusting? I only do it because it pleases her during intercourse. I don't get some sort of head rush from eating her vagina. Also, keep in mind that these were all things that we did when our marriage was young and before she got her citizenship.

When we went to marriage counseling the 2nd time, the lady gave us a book to read. I read some of it but she never even opened it. Soon after, we quit going because she didn't like the idea of a 3rd party telling us what we should be doing. 

That's why I say I'm frustrated. There are many other issues here that I haven't listed and I'm sure that she has issues with me. I think going to counseling again will be best but this time, I'm giving her an ultimatum. I feel like that is the only way to get her attention.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> ozzzy,
> 
> How man hours a week does your wife work at her job?
> 
> ...


She works 40 hours a week M-F. Right now, she is taking 2 online classes and one of them is ridiculously easy. Her mother moved in with us last year so we watches the youngest for us. She has a sub 30k salary because it's an entry position. Her car is paid for and all she pays is the electric bill. We also don't have a joint account.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> You'd be surprised man. The only way she would deny anything is if she flat out lied. I have no reasons to tell any tales here because I'm looking to save my marriage.
> 
> I guess I could have a mental illness, but a more plausible explanation for me is that I'm unsatisfied with my marriage and it's pushing me over the edge.
> 
> ...


Don't cheat. Why? It will make you feel worse. Trust me on that one. No matter how bad you feel now, your having an affair will rip your heart out, let alone your wife's and it will make you really, really hurt.

Then you really will be depressed and you will be on medication.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> She works 40 hours a week M-F. Right now, she is taking 2 online classes and one of them is ridiculously easy. Her mother moved in with us last year so we watches the youngest for us. She has a sub 30k salary because it's an entry position. Her car is paid for and all she pays is the electric bill. We also don't have a joint account.


I asked what % of your joint income she earns, not how much she earns. % is often more important than the $ figure since I assume you earn enough for all of you to live on.

So what if one of the classes is 'ridiculously easy'. some classes are, some are harder. That's what school is like.

what is her goal in attending school? What degree? Certificate? Etc?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

What is her native language?

Do you speak/read/write her native language fluently?


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Don't cheat. Why? It will make you feel worse. Trust me on that one. No matter how bad you feel now, your having an affair will rip your heart out, let alone your wife's and it will make you really, really hurt.
> 
> Then you really will be depressed and you will be on medication.


Trust me, I don't want to cheat although I've thought about it. The only thing holding me back from this woman is myself. She has made it clear that she is interested and this has had me feeling a lot of strange feelings since I have a lot of resentment for my wife.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> What is her native language?
> 
> Do you speak/read/write her native language fluently?


Her native language is arabic. I bought a translation book after we got married and she taught me a lot. She rarely speaks it now unless she is talking to her mother or one of her friends. I rarely speak it now but I do understand some words when they speak it.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I asked what % of your joint income she earns, not how much she earns. % is often more important than the $ figure since I assume you earn enough for all of you to live on.
> 
> So what if one of the classes is 'ridiculously easy'. some classes are, some are harder. That's what school is like.
> 
> what is her goal in attending school? What degree? Certificate? Etc?


Ah sorry. She makes around 30% of our joint income.

Also, I mention one of the classes being ridiculously easy in the context of how easy it would be for her to pass. Assignments are given online every Monday and she has until Sunday to complete them. She waits until Sunday and then hounds me to help her. Since the time is so short, I end up doing 80-90% of what needs to be done.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> Her native language is arabic. I bought a translation book after we got married and she taught me a lot. She rarely speaks it now unless she is talking to her mother or one of her friends. I rarely speak it now but I do understand some words when they speak it.


So she might have some social or religious issues with some sexual acts? Especially if her mother is living with you.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> So she might have some social or religious issues with some sexual acts? Especially if her mother is living with you.


Well these issues go back at least until 2010 and her mom just moved in last year. If she did have any religious issues, it certainly wasn't a issue when we met


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: I haven't cheated yet but I need help with what I should do with my marriage.*



ozzzy said:


> You're right! That's what husbands are supposed to do. I only brought it up since he asked if I helped out around the house. I feel like I'm being beat up here just for being dissatisfied with my marriage. I have not cheated and I wanted to stop things before it got to that point. I'm only human just like everyone else and I make mistakes. I wish you could hear my wife tell this story because she can't deny anything that I wrote.


My point was not that you don't due what you are supposed to do or that your wife is not doing what she is supposed to do. On the contrary, my point was that you want her to go above and beyond what she is supposed to do and if you are to be fair you need to go above and beyond as well by picking up the slack. You want her to go to school and succeed? Given the language challenges that she faces and her status as a foreign student I would suggest that it would only be fair if you were to completely take over the child rearing and all the housework while she works and attends school. If you were in her position wouldn't you consider this fair?

As for the facts of this story I might suggest that while the basic foundation might be true her interpretation would be entirely different. Allow me to illustrate using one of my favorite examples.

"A woman without her man is nothing"

Can be interpreted as:

"A woman without her man, is nothing."

Or

"A woman: without her, man is nothing."

The words are the same but the meanings are entirely different depending on the punctuation. Where do you think your wife might insert her punctuation when it comes to your story?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> Her native language is arabic.


your wife speaks arabic as her native language and you begrudge a 5th grade writing level?

do you have any idea how difficult it is for native arabic speakers to learn english? arabic grammar makes sense. english has nothing but broken rules. 

!اتكلم معها قبل الطلاق او الخيانة. من فضلك, افهم زوجتك


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> Well these issues go back at least until 2010 and her mom just moved in last year. If she did have any religious issues, it certainly wasn't a issue when we met


Ozzzy, this happens a lot. To married people. welcome to our special club!:smthumbup:

By the way, arthritis or allied conditions can really dampen enthusiasm for some sex positions for some people. Just a thought.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> your wife speaks arabic as her native language and you begrudge a 5th grade writing level?
> 
> do you have any idea how difficult it is for native arabic speakers to learn english? arabic grammar makes sense. english has nothing but broken rules.
> 
> !اتكلم معها قبل الطلاق او الخيانة. من فضلك, افهم زوجتك


يا الهي! الترجمة من Google ترجمة ذلك بالنسبة لي. وأنا أتفق مع كل كلمة كتبت.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> Ah sorry. She makes around 30% of our joint income.
> 
> Also, I mention one of the classes being ridiculously easy in the context of how easy it would be for her to pass. Assignments are given online every Monday and she has until Sunday to complete them. She waits until Sunday and then hounds me to help her. Since the time is so short, I end up doing 80-90% of what needs to be done.


You have not mentioned what religion your wife was raised in. But it probably does not make much of a difference since the three major religions that come out of the Middle East all have the same basic law/rule when it comes to marital finances. The husband is required to support his wife and children. The money the wife has is her money. The husband has no right to his wife's money.

Now if the wife wants something extraordinary, she has to use her own money for it.

I guess that's the rule are you living under. You helped to establish this by you maintaining separate accounts and holding complete control over the money you earn. Since the two of you cannot come to agreement on how to manage your joint income as a couple, I guess this is the way it will remain.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> يا الهي! الترجمة من Google ترجمة ذلك بالنسبة لي. وأنا أتفق مع كل كلمة كتبت.


if you used google translate, you will see that it says "i understand your wife".

the correct translation is "understand your wife". the only difference between the first person verb and the imperative in arabic is a diacritic, which is rarely written.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

First of all, before you divorce or cheat, READ THIS.



ozzzy said:


> And to everyone who says that I need to talk to her, believe me when I say that I've tried. Normally, when I bring up something such as money or sex, it usually ends with her getting defensive and placing the blame on me. For example, when I complain about sexual positions, the response is usually:
> 
> "It just hurts"
> 
> ...


Talking is over-rated. In fact, it's pretty much useless when it comes to sex, unless you're both aligned in the first place. Show me one thread here—just one!—where a husband with a low-desire wife told her he wanted more sex and she just suddenly agreed and changed. 

For one thing, the logical part of the brain and the emotional part don't communicate super well. Any attempt to use logical persuasion will activate the part of the brain that is not emotional, which will actually lead to the opposite result that you want. This is why it kinda works when some guys distract themselves with counting or whatever during sex in order to last longer. (Except guys seem to communicate better between the logical and emotional parts). It's not the distraction that causes the sexual disconnect, it's using the logical part of the brain—otherwise sexual fantasy would cause people to last longer, too, if it were just because it distracts from the matter at hand. Also, never talk about sex during sex, except to say stuff like, "Yeah, that's great!" 

Female desire is mostly responsive. You need to get her strictly on an emotional level. So, get her all hot and bothered and then just take the lead. Bit by bit, bring in stuff that she's previously been uncomfortable with. Tiny, _tiny_ increments. Never ask her if she'll do something. Just do it or tell her to do it. However—and this is absolutely crucial!—have sex for her benefit, not yours. I guarantee it will transform your sex life like nothing you can imagine. 



ozzzy said:


> Does she not know that me going down on her is also ****ing disgusting?


Yeah, she probably does pick up on that vibe. This is really hypocritical of you. If you don't enjoy it, learn to, or don't do it—and for sure don't expect anything similar in return.



ozzzy said:


> When we went to marriage counseling the 2nd time, the lady gave us a book to read. I read some of it but she never even opened it. Soon after, we quit going because she didn't like the idea of a 3rd party telling us what we should be doing.


She wants you to lead. See above.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ozzy What do you do for a living? Do you have a degree? What are your interest? How old is this medical student?

It's obvious you are having serious problems in your marriage but don't pin your hopes on this OW. 

Be sensible - Do you really think that this OW is planning on marriage and supporting you. The competition for an attractive, well educated woman with high earning potential is fierce. She has the pick of fellow students, residents and physicians.

If you are leaving your wife with that fantasy in mind then you are in for a world of hurt and disappointment. She does not have marriage on her mind. 

Forget this woman and turn your attention to pulling out the stops to give your marriage a go. Do you think the fantasies of the woman has changed your feelings and willingness to work on your marriage?

You will not be able to ditch your children and wife so easily. You have to pay child support. If you don't feel a moral obligation to care for them then you have a legal obligation. 

You want to be happy but can you really be happy about giving up two boys? If you D, don't abandon your children please. 

There are too many children that have been thrown away by their parent so they can start a new life. Don't be that kind of person.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> Her native language is arabic. I bought a translation book after we got married and she taught me a lot. She rarely speaks it now unless she is talking to her mother or one of her friends. I rarely speak it now but I do understand some words when they speak it.


OK, so she speaks English better than you speak Arabic is that correct?


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

What you are contemplating is reviled as one the worst acts one sentient being can inflict on another. 

Its simple, don't do it. That simple.

Divorce, go to counseling, put your d*ck in a blender, anything but what you are currently considering.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I decided to revisit this to show you something...



ozzzy said:


> There’s a woman that I’ve been talking to. She is younger than me but pretty attractive. She’s made it evident that she is interested in me but I’ve been trying to keep my distance.


You don't go outside the marriage to talk to attractive women in private. You have already disrespected your wife, your marriage, and yourself by disclosing private details of your marriage to this woman.

You have already cheated. You have already disrespected your wife. And you are here thinking your wife is the one who needs to smarten up?



ozzzy said:


> She is very smart and is currently in medical school. She knows that I’m married and that I have a ton of issues with my wife.


She knows because you violated your marriage and disrespected your wife to disclose that info to this woman. That's why she knows.

You have no business sharing your marital troubles with other women in private. This woman allows you to do this, and in doing so, she disrespects your marriage, your wife, and YOU.

As soon as you start talking about your private marital life she should have WALKED AWAY.



ozzzy said:


> We have not have sex or even went out yet but I can definitely see both of those things happening in the future.


Let me get this straight...

This woman

a. disrespects your wife
b. disrespects your marriage
c. intrudes into the private details of your home life
d. acts in deception to pursue you/make herself available
e. compromises your integrity
f. invites you to collude to the detriment of your home, your wife, and your children

And YOU think she's such a great catch?

Really?

Let me explain something very simple. The infidelity paradox : 

_The only people worth cheating with, are the people that won't cheat with you to begin with.
_

Anyone who would

a. lie to your wife
b. deceive your wife
c. collude against your marriage, your wife, and your children
d. compromise your marriage, your wife, and your children
e. disrespect your marriage, your wife, and your children
f. sneak around
g. violate your home
h. invite you to throw away years of commitment

Is NOT someone worth partnering UP with.

Look at that list.. THAT is the resume of a co-conspirator in infidelity. THAT is your great catch?

Really? Looks like a promising romance there doesn't it?

Anyone who would be willing to do HALF of that is NOT someone you want to invest time into

She can't be honest
She can't be trusted
She can't respect boundaries
She can't respect commitments

You think that resume is someone you want to partner up with.. really?

Never mind how unethical infidelity is or isn't'.. that's just plain STUPID.

Do you realize the success rate of a relationship borne from infidelity is less than five percent long term?

That's less than one TENTH the chance singles have in a conventional marriage, which is 50% roughly.

That's the infidelity paradox.

_The only people worth cheating with, are the people that won't cheat with you to begin with.
_

Anyone who is willing to hitch their star to your wagon buddy is a LOSER.

That's not a shot at you, it's a shot at HER.

_The only people worth cheating with, are the people that won't cheat with you to begin with.
_

Imagine asking a female this :

Hey want to lie, sneak around, and disrespect my marriage in secret with me?

Anyone who nods to that question is NOT worth your TIME.


Have you heard this phrase?

_There is no honor among thieves_

Does that seem pertinent at all here?


Never mind ethics, infidelity is just plain stupid.



ozzzy said:


> Even if things didn’t work out between me and this woman, I’m actually intrigued that I could potentially be with someone like this who could make me happy.


They won't. I would bet hard cash on it.

And for the record : people don't make you happy. YOU make you happy. That's YOUR job.

A spouse is not in your life to make you happy. They are in your life to love, support, and protect you. They are there to support YOU making YOU happy.

It's not your wife's job to make you happy.

If you are unhappy, that means you are slacking off, not your wife.

Great spouses contribute to a great you. They can't make a great you, they can't contribute to a miserable you.

You make you happy. And that has ZERO to do with your marriage. That's YOUR job to accomplish as an individual.



ozzzy said:


> Someone who is smart and wouldn’t mind supporting the family financially.


Smart? Because she's started to collude with you and disrespect your marriage? Really? That doesn't sound all that smart to me.

If she will collude WITH you, she will collude ON you.

YOU need to open your EYES.

You think she will support you financially do you? You ran a credit check on her did you?

You know how she manages her money do you? You have directly and factually verified her spending habits and how much debtload she's carrying and has carried?



ozzzy said:


> I’ve been having sexual fantasies about this other woman and in these fantasies, I see myself doing things to her that I wish I could do with my wife. I know that if I was happy in my marriage, I wouldn’t be having these fantasies.


That's BULL.

If you aren't happy, that's your job to fix that. Your wife compliments a happy you. If you are miserable, you need to find a way to fix that within the bounds of your commitments.



ozzzy said:


> She is happy and the kids are happy.


According to you she is. I bet you a million bucks she would have something different to say about that.



ozzzy said:


> My wife now has no intention of bettering herself and she seems like she would be happy being beautiful and illiterate for the rest of her life.


Since when is your happiness contingent on your wife's literacy level?




ozzzy said:


> Still, that’s my fault because I married her and brought her here for all the wrong reasons.


Sometimes you make the right decisions, sometimes you make the decisions right.

Fix it, rather than abandoning it.



ozzzy said:


> Should I just accept the fact that I will be forced to lie in this bed for the rest of my life or should I try to pursue my own happiness even if it means that my wife and kids won’t live as comfortably as before?


OR, a third option is to REPAIR the fractured marriage.

So.. you are thinking its a smart idea to start partnering up in secret with someone who is willing to deceive, disrespect, collude, and violate?

You think you are driven to this because your wife is not as literate in English as you are?

You think you are driven to this kind of thinking because your wife isn't meeting her obligations to make you happy?

Really? Am I reading this right? What's wrong with this picture?

If I thought like that I would be pretty miserable too. And my wife's English is impeccable. So where's the disconnect here?

Here's what I am hoping you notice in this post :

a. stupid people cheat, the smart money is on keeping your integrity in tact
b. your wife does not need to be as literate in English as you are for your marriage to function effectively
c. it's not your wife's job to ensure your life is fulfilling
d. romantic relationships do not make people happy, they compliment a rich fulfilling life, they do not create it

What mistakes are YOU making in your marriage?

What do you own here?


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> Trust me, I don't want to cheat although I've thought about it. The only thing holding me back from this woman is myself. She has made it clear that she is interested and this has had me feeling a lot of strange feelings since I have a lot of resentment for my wife.


I want to say I admire you for coming here and staying to face all the critics.

Now you will wonder if that is all not exaggerated. I say no, these posters give you a free self exploratory journey into your soul, that probably no counselor would give you that fast and hard.

So, as said, I think it is very good of you to stay and respond. Somehow in the responding and reading, thinking over things over a couple of days your brain will come to new ideas and solutions. It is no way to say what way that will go, reviving your relation or seeking divorce, but it will be a better road also for yourself than cheating.

Be happy with some positivity about yourself


----------



## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> Right, it's something I knew back when we got married. In my defense, I was young (20) and she was even younger. At the time, we didn't have a house, bills, children, or any of the other things that we have now. We've built all of those things over this marriage and because of this, we've had to evolve mentally and financially to make things work. We both made a bone headed move to get married at such a young age but *I don't feel that this gives her a free pass on her responsibilities.* The same goes for me too.


she works 40hrs/wk and helps out around the house?
free pass - she's doing it wrong!

you want to have sex with another woman bc yours isn't giving you what you want in the bedroom. i get that. i would be pretty pissed off if my H suddenly felt certain positions i enjoy weren't allowed anymore or that going down on me is suddenly disgusting. really, i would be upset too.

and with one of our mothers living in the house? yeah, wouldn't like that either.

can you 2 plan a trip somewhere soon, just the 2 of you? it sounds like you could use some time to re-connect.

and don't assume she's happy about everything just bc she's appears to be. she's obviously not ok with everything if she's changing her mind about having sex with you.

if you are serious about saving your M, you will go NC with this OW.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

"I haven't cheated yet, but what should I do with my marriage?"

To answer your question:

1. VERY IMPORTANT FIRST STEP!!! Remove the distraction from your marriage - i.e. the other woman. You can not make any good or rational decisions while she is in the picture, because she is causing you to think with the lower part of your body instead of your heart and head! If you don't COMPLETELY get her out of the picture as soon as possible - like IMMEDIATELY - you will cheat - I can almost guarantee that. Also - if you don't get her out of the picture - there isn't anything you can do for your marriage - except make even more of a mess of it.

Once she is out of the picture completely. Try the following:

2. Make a list of all the good things about your marriage. Then make a list of the bad things in your marriage.

3. Make a third list about all the good things about your wife. Then make a list of the things that bother you about your wife.

4. Make a 4th list of what you need in your life to be happy. Write the list in the terms of "I need such and such" and try to be as specific as you can. Do not write it in terms of "I need my wife too such and such". For example - instead of saying I need my wife to give me better sex, you might write I need variety, excitement, and passion in my sex life. 

5. Sit down and go over these lists with your wife and share your true and honest feelings with her. Tell her that you are at a point in your marriage where you don't feel happy any more. That you have been tempted to cheat - have not done it and won't do it, however it has made you realize you are not sure if you want to continue in your marriage or not. Tell her you have decided you need to get some professional help to sort things out. Invite her to attend counseling with you - but let her know that even if she will not attend - you are still going to a counselor and will continue to do so until you figure out what you want and need to do about the marriage.

6. Get counseling. But understand that the counseling is to help you figure out you - and what you need to do to find happiness and love, not to change your wife - because you have no control over her - only yourself. 

Hopefully for you boys sake - you will be able to figure out that you can find happiness and rekindle love within your marriage. 

Good Luck!


----------



## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> I decided to revisit this to show you something...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Believe me when I say that I don't have long term plans for me and this other woman. I'm sure that even if we did hook up, she would later probably leave me for a younger more successful model once she graduates. The point that I was trying to make is that talking to her brought my marital problems to a head and made me realize how much better things can be.

Reading my past posts, it would appear that I'm talking down on my wife and calling her stupid. I'm sorry if that's how I came across because that's not the case. First, I find her willingness to use me as a crutch unattractive. For the english language, I'm not expecting her to be perfect. What I'm expecting is for to show me that she is trying. What example are we setting for our son if his mother doesn't care about her education and just relies on me? If I were in her country, I would try to learn the most that I could if it meant that I could give my family a better life. It wouldn't matter how much money my wife made. It would just be something I would want to do to better my life. 

I know you disagree with a lot that I've said but I'm sure we can agree on a few things. First, won't you agree that we got married too young (20 and 18)? Not to mention that we only dated for 2 months.

Secondly, wouldn't you agree that she had a lot more to gain from this relationship that I did? She's brought her mother and her sister here over the course of our marriage. That wouldn't be possible if I didn't marry her. Looking back, how could I not think that at the time, she looked at me as an opportunity rather than a husband?

Third, I've outlined how our money is separate and how I'm responsible for all the bills while she keeps a separate account with all her money and she pays one bill. Is it fair for me to sometimes struggle to make monthly payments and be stressed out over money while she is out having fun without a care in the world? Is it fair for me to juggle money in my checking account to make sure our son's tuition is paid while she is checking out bags at the Coach store?

I understand that maybe I was wrong for talking to another woman outside of my marriage but I can't see how you can read the above and say with a straight face that I don't have a right to be frustrated and unsatisfied in my marriage. I'm around 29 years old now and from the way this train is headed, I'll probably never have the financial freedom that I want. I'll probably never do all the sexual positions/acts that I want and things will probably get worse from here. Is that something I should just "deal with" just because I made a bone headed mistake at 20? 

The only reason I ended up here was because I thought sleeping with the other woman would be fulfilling and possibly balance out all the negativity that I'm receiving at home. If I was getting sex even from someone else, I wouldn't have so much resentment towards my wife and probably wouldn't give a heck if she never wanted to give another blow job in her life. These feelings have had me confused and that's why I'm here. I know that cheating is wrong and I shouldn't do it but when you read what I wrote, you can understand why I've been tempted.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You need to make a decision.

Either decide to work on your marriage and on improving yourself or decide on divorce. Which ever you chose, do it 100%.

I understand that you are frustrated. I'll bet that if I talked to your wife, she would also say that she is frustrated with a lot about you. It's seldom a one-way-street.

I brought up finances so as to concentrate on one topic at a time. our response is that you will not address it with her. There are ways that you can address it but you defeat that idea before it gets out of the gate. Clearly you are part of the problem.

You complain about your financial situation now. It will most likely be worse if you divorce as you will be writing a check to her every month for at least child support. 

I really wonder about the idea that your wife will go back to her home country since she brought her mother and sister here. Sounds like they do not want to live in their home country. I don't blame them. There is not one country that has Arabic as a language that I would live in again. I've been there. Would never, ever go back. I wonder if they would go back either.

The choices we make in life make a huge difference in our lives going forward. You chose to not work in a high paid field... your choice. You chose to marry and have children at a young age. 

I'm not being harsh here. The fact is that this is life. You need to find a way to make the best of what you have created. We all face issues based on good and bad choices we have made in the past.

Infidelity is a choice that will not work. I do not know one person who has cheated who said it improved their life.. and I know a lot of people who have cheated. Every one of them has said that it was a nightmare that turned them into a person who was petrified of being found out. Most ruined their marriage and their relationships with their children.

So chose a path and work on make it a good choice 100%.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> The only reason I ended up here was because I thought sleeping with the other woman would be fulfilling and possibly balance out all the negativity that I'm receiving at home. If I was getting sex even from someone else, I wouldn't have so much resentment towards my wife and probably wouldn't give a heck if she never wanted to give another blow job in her life. These feelings have had me confused and that's why I'm here. I know that cheating is wrong and I shouldn't do it but when you read what I wrote, you can understand why I've been tempted.


The cake eater's path. A total clichè, nothing original, it's thought process as old as human being.
You came here to get patted in tha back, validated in your path towards cheating at a website named "coping with infidelity". Maybe you mistoke the audience. I suggest you stop for a while, to be open to different stories, to ponder the consequences from people who walked this road before, on both sides oif the fence. Seriously. Read a few threads here, try a different marriage website, read "Not just friends"... Try reality and put on hold for a while this idea you are entertaining before it changes you, internally, forever.

My take is.. if you abandon wishfull thinking and become aware of how reality actually looks like you will try a different way, the right way.
In order to get clarity you need to cut this ongoing EA you are carrying for now. It's a no brainer, you know.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Yes Ozzy - you have the right to feel the way you do - they are your feelings. Clearly you have issues with your wife and your marriage. Yes - you got married very young and yes your wife has benefited from your marriage. And I can understand why you are drawn to having an affair. You have found an attractive woman who is showing interest in you and it would be very easy to just throw all caution to the wind and start up an affair with her. But you yourself say having an affair is wrong and that you know you shouldn't do it! You came here looking for help - and everyone here is offering you their opinion. But ultimately what happens in your marriage is all in your hands. Here are your 3 basic choices:

1. Do what you know is wrong - and continue the relationship with this other woman. It won't be long before you are having sex with her. Will this help your marriage? You are trying to rationalize that it will. _"I thought sleeping with the other woman would be fulfilling and possibly balance out all the negativity that I'm receiving at home. If I was getting sex even from someone else,"_ But I know you know that is not what will happen. Having an affair will make things worse in your marriage - not better. And it solves NONE of the issues that is making you unhappy in your marriage.

2. Break up with the other woman, and continue in the marriage without dealing with the issues that are bothering you. Will this help the marriage? Clearly not - the issues will just bother you more and more and your will continue to be unhappy.

3. Break up with the other woman and seek professional help to deal with the issues that are bothering you. Will this help the marriage? It could - but more importantly - it will help you figure out what you want and need in the RIGHT way! 

Stop considering what you know in your heart is the wrong thing to do - and take the steps to do what you know in your heart is the right thing to do! Get some professional help now. Get your head on straight before you make any decisions concerning your marriage! You owe that much to your wife, you owe that much to your children, and you owe that much to yourself!


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

You married a woman you think you shouldn't have. 
*=regret.
*
You tried to make her "better herself" and made her take classes. I'll bet she didn't come up with the idea herself. I wouldn't if I worked 40 hours a week and had two very young children. I would have told you to go jump in the lake and that it was MY business. But she appeased you and went. So naturally it didn't work. 
*=frustration & regret.
*
The bedroom life changed about 4 years ago. She says it hurts & she's now put off. Have you *gently* asked her why? Probably not. Yet, her answer might surprise you and the issue could be explored and solved. Instead you keep asking for it, she says no and you get angry. Aren't you at all concerned that it's painful for her? Doesn't sound like it. Would you be more sensitive if it was the Doc? I can guarantee you would be. Should your BS close her eyes and appease you. . . again? 
*=sexual frustration, frustration & regret. 
*
She works 40 hours a week despite being the mother of 2 very young children. But, you want her to earn more money, oh yes, those classes. You don't think it's fair that you are the main breadwinner which is the case in most marriages I know of.
*=resentment, sexual frustration, frustration & regret. *

You mentioned going to counselling and "*giving her an ultimatum"* Are you serious? Counselling doesn't work like that. Don't waste your money. 

I just don't get "love" anywhere in your posts. I did search. No softness, no gentleness, no affection, no fond memories except how good the sex was, the partying, how physically attractive she was. Almost always on here, even when a poster is a WS there will usually be, "we had so many great years together", or "we had such a good relationship". Didn't read anything like that in this thread.

And the student doctor? In the profession called the 'caring' profession? Who is having an EA with a married man, father of two young children and indicates she wants more as you said? Who is happy to turn 3 lives including that of 2 innocent little boys into chaos? Who knows more about your marriage than your BS does? Take another look at the Doc with a magnifying glass since your judgement seems impaired. 

You married someone you shouldn't have like many which is reflected in the 50% divorce rate. I truly doubt you are in love with her and I think you haven't been in love with her for a long time. 

Let me put it like this. If she ran away to her home country leaving your 2 sons with you, would you care if you never saw her again? 

Or would you be relieved that she was out of your life and you could go on to have the type of life you want to have with someone else? 

Just get a divorce and make it a generous one, and put the Doc on ice for now.

PS If your BS is as beautiful as you describe, hopefully she will meet someone who will appreciate her for who she is. She can't be all bad. To date, I haven't heard about any of her good points at all.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> Believe me when I say that I don't have long term plans for me and this other woman. I'm sure that even if we did hook up, she would later probably leave me for a younger more successful model once she graduates. The point that I was trying to make is that talking to her brought my marital problems to a head and made me realize how much better things can be.
> 
> Reading my past posts, it would appear that I'm talking down on my wife and calling her stupid. I'm sorry if that's how I came across because that's not the case. First, I find her willingness to use me as a crutch unattractive. For the english language, I'm not expecting her to be perfect. What I'm expecting is for to show me that she is trying. What example are we setting for our son if his mother doesn't care about her education and just relies on me? If I were in her country, I would try to learn the most that I could if it meant that I could give my family a better life. It wouldn't matter how much money my wife made. It would just be something I would want to do to better my life.
> 
> ...


Absolutely *hell to the no *is it understandable that you feel tempted to cheat on your wife. You are a whiner and a cake eater and your wife is too good for you.


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

ozzzy said:


> Believe me when I say that I don't have long term plans for me and this other woman. I'm sure that even if we did hook up, she would later probably leave me for a younger more successful model once she graduates. The point that I was trying to make is that talking to her brought my marital problems to a head and made me realize how much better things can be.
> 
> Reading my past posts, it would appear that I'm talking down on my wife and calling her stupid. I'm sorry if that's how I came across because that's not the case. First, I find her willingness to use me as a crutch unattractive. For the english language, I'm not expecting her to be perfect. What I'm expecting is for to show me that she is trying. What example are we setting for our son if his mother doesn't care about her education and just relies on me? If I were in her country, I would try to learn the most that I could if it meant that I could give my family a better life. It wouldn't matter how much money my wife made. It would just be something I would want to do to better my life.
> 
> ...




So you feel as though you would be doing your wife a favor by cheating. That way YOU don't feel resentments. Laughable!


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

Do you love her? No? Get a divorce, be honest about about you not loving her. Support her and your kids, you own them that. Don't live a lie and cheat and hurt her and your kids.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> The only reason I ended up here was because I thought sleeping with the other woman would be fulfilling and possibly balance out all the negativity that I'm receiving at home. If I was getting sex even from someone else, I wouldn't have so much resentment towards my wife and probably wouldn't give a heck if she never wanted to give another blow job in her life. These feelings have had me confused and that's why I'm here. I know that cheating is wrong and I shouldn't do it but when you read what I wrote, you can understand why I've been tempted.


I will reply to the rest, but I wanted to cover this right now since it's urgent.

As usual, I am going to factor the ethics out of this to make my point, since discussing ethics with someone who has a cheating mentality is pointless.

A few points :

1. Sleeping with another woman is not going to balance out all the negativity in your home. What this will do is

a. increase tension
b. increase disconnect
c. create resentment 

2. You are incorrect suggesting you will resent your wife LESS when you cheat on her. Scan through a few threads here and you will notice that resentment during infidelity actually INCREASES.

Every moment you spend with your wife rather than with your partner in collusion will frustrate you. Every word she says will be one word too many that you dont want to hear.

Her voice will grate on you. You will resent every second of your time that your wife steals from OW.

You will grow to despise your wife and think she is just in the way. Sorry, but this is the psychology of collusion.

You will increasingly make comparisons and find your wife lacking, and resent her for it.. you are already doing that NOW and you haven't even kissed the woman.

_It is unfair to compare a new, exciting, taboo fantasy relationship to one you've been in for years where there are kids, bills to pay, a house to run and noses to wipe. That is a ridiculous comparison.
_

Everything your affair partner does will feel refreshing and easy. Of course it will.

Anyone can be charming for a few hours a week in secret.

Your wife at some point early on was charming long enough for you to marry her.

It grows old, and it grows old fast.

Infidelity is like a credit card. It's fun to buy stuff without having to pay for it.

But the fact is, you do eventually get a delivery in your mailbox of your home and it is not a pretty sight.

In your mailbox is a tally of all the reckless indulgence you wasted on a selfish inconsiderate woman in secret.

And you will pay for all those lies, all the disrespect, and all the horrible things you have done in secret. You will pay, with interest tacked on at 21%.

You do NOT want to do that. YOU will regret it.

STOP worrying about infidelity being "wrong". Far too often that just makes infidelity MORE tempting focussing on that.

Focus on the fact that six months or a year down the road YOU will REGRET making that choice. Never mind your wife.. do YOURSELF a favor and get this ridiculous idea out of your head that infidelity in the long run will make your marriage more inviting and functional. That's bullshyte.

Infidelity contaminates a home at every possible level.

You will make ridiculous comparisons, you will waste time and money, your resentment towards your wife will increase, your anxiety and tension in your own brain will increase. Six months to a year later your marriage will be worse off and you will have wasted another year in reckless indulgence rather than constructively working towards a solution.

Affairs don't exist in a vacuum either. You put 40 hours a week into an affair, you are stealing that time from your wife and children. SOMEONE will be forfeit that time that you decide to sneak around with someone else in secret.

That 40 hours a week would be much better used to repair your marriage than to escape into some ridiculously self indulgent and self-destructive fantasy that never lives up to the hype.

Never mind infidelity being wrong, it's STUPID. Do YOURSELF a favor and get that ridiculous idea out of your head.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

There are more myths about marriage in the list, but I wanted to share this snippet with you. I think it's quite relevant :
_
MYTH #10: YOUR RELATIONSHIP CAN BECOME GREAT ONLY WHEN YOU STRAIGHTEN YOUR PARTNER OUT

Don't fall into the trap of believing that if you could change your partner, your relationship would be better. You are, at the very least, jointly accountable for the relationship.
Let go of the childlike notion that falling in love means finding someone who will be responsible for your happiness. You need to take responsibility for your own happiness.
If your relationship is distressed, the most important person for you to change might be yourself. Once you identify the payoffs you are subconsciously seeking with destructive behavior, you can choose to remove them from your life.

_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: I haven't cheated yet but I need help with what I should do with my marriage.*



Allen_A said:


> There are more myths about marriage in the list, but I wanted to share this snippet with you. I think it's quite relevant :
> _
> MYTH #10: YOUR RELATIONSHIP CAN BECOME GREAT ONLY WHEN YOU STRAIGHTEN YOUR PARTNER OUT
> 
> ...


Amen brother. Only by being able to be happy alone can you be happy with someone else.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Too bad about getting married too young. You need to face the real world. Whatever you think is going on with this medical student, I can assure you that she is not dreaming of supplying you with sex. 

Be realistic. Don't get D with expectations that you will get out free and clear because you made a mistake. That's on you not on two small kids. We all pay for our mistakes.

You are old enough now to man up and take care of the people that depend on you. If you want to D then do it. 

But don't do it because you think that there is an abundance of women to relieve you sexually just because you want. It does not work that way.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> I will reply to the rest, but I wanted to cover this right now since it's urgent.
> 
> As usual, I am going to factor the ethics out of this to make my point, since discussing ethics with someone who has a cheating mentality is pointless.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

EXCELLENT post by Allen A. I rarely quote entire posts, but this one deserves to be in the TAMers sticky note section. Anyone contemplating an affair should read this.

Well said, well said. Spot on.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ozzy - about 4 years ago I found myself thinking about having an affair. There was no other man - but I fantasied and thought about having sex with other men all the time. I actually signed up on a affair site for one day before I deleted it. I came to TAM and started a thread about my feelings. You can find it here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/19144-help-i-am-freaking-crazy.html

There was a person who made some very harsh comments. Some called him/her a troll and said he/she was mean and critical. I asked him/her some questions and he/she wrote a very astute comment to me that hit me in the face like a ton of bricks. You could say it was a wake up call for me. 

Here is the comment. It's long, but read it carefully. I don't know if it will hit you the same way - but I hope it does, because he/she was so spot on - and I think a lot of what he/she said to me applies to you also - and anyone else who has begun to seriously thinking about cheating. (My questions are in italics, followed by his/her responses)

Here is the comment:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mary35 View Post 
_Some questions for you NLS -

I am curious why you say my marriage is as good as finished?_ 

Because of your attitude towards your fantasy life. It doesn't really scare, horrify and terrify you--it teases you, entices you, and attracts you. You are fascinated by the notion of having sex with other men. It is the lure of the forbidden fruit. It is an itch that you seem to have an obsession to scratch, and until you actually scratch it, it will just keep getting worse and worse and worse.

You are not looking at your fantasy life as a symptom that there is something seriously wrong in your marriage, and then making a realistic attempt to deal with whatever is wrong in your marriage. You are treating the fantasy--the desire to have sex with other men--as something that has its own, independent reality. 

By constantly, obsessively ruminating over the possibility and/or fun of having an affair, despite your reservations (being a "good girl"), you are constantly reinforcing the obsession. It is only a matter of time before you act on the fantasy, or more likely, you allow yourself to be in a "situation" in which you can "make a mistake." 


_Quote:
Are all sexual fantasies a manifestation of growing emotional detachment - or just mine? _ 

I'm just going based on what you said. If you don't feel that part of what you're going through includes starting to emotionally detach from your husband, then I'll take your word for it. However what you are going through right now is the early stages of a process that a lot of women go through who do end up cheating. And one of the reasons they end up cheating is because they keep telling themselves that they will never actually cheat. The intention precedes the act. Since for most women, they have to be at least somewhat emotionally involve before they can justify having sex with someone, this requires a process in which they start to emotionally detach from their spouse. At some point they come to believe that they are no longer "in love" with their spouse, then they start looking backwards and rewriting the marital history to make it seem worse than it actually was, and they focus their romantic attention on a real live male who is the embodiment of the fantasies. That's why it's often said affairs are fantasies. The affair partner is the "soul mate" because the fantasies are projected on the affair partner.

Why do you think you are so much different from every other married woman who never thought she would cheat on her husband, yet ended up doing so anyway? How do you think people get on the road from fidelity to cheating? It starts with mentally permitting oneself to believe that it might be a worthwhile thing to do, but couched as "just a fantasy." 

The only difference is most of the stories we read about this are "after the fact," after the cheating has already happened. You're different than many others because it's still at the very early stages. Maybe you can nip it in the bud but you have to take active steps to do so. As long as you keep obsessing over the fantasy and telling yourself there's something out there that's better than your marriage you are at a very high risk level of progressing down that road. Nothing you wrote made me think you are particularly interested in putting out this particular fire, it actually sounds like you think you can hold onto this fantasy, cultivate it as a fantasy only, without causing further serious damage to your marriage, and without the risk of actually trying to make it real. Sorry you can't do that. It won't work. You can't cultivate and cherish these kinds of fantasies as you've been doing, and apparently, for quite some time now.

We're not talking about the typical idle, stray thought, where you look at someone hot and mentally undress them. This is a real obsession with you which puts you well on the road to actual cheating.



_Quote:
Is it possible to have dissatisfaction with your spouse and or marriage and still have the marriage survive? _ 

Yes of course, but the fact that you would frame the issue this way indicates that the blame shifting has already begun. Whether you realize it or not, by attributing your obsessive fantasizing about an affair to dissatisfaction with your spouse, you are blaming him for something he has no control over--that is, how you choose to mentally deal with whatever you are dissatisfied with in the marriage. 

So what if you are dissatisfied in some way about your spouse? That does not justify fantasizing about other men nor does it justify attributing your fantasizing to your husband's supposed inadequacies. That's all blame shifting which is what cheaters do. The fact that you may not have actually cheated, yet, doesn't change the fact that you already have a cheater's mentality in certain respects. That's why I perceived that ultimately your marriage is not going to survive this. 

If you were emotionally a healthy and complete person, the way you would attempt to address your husband's inadequacies or issues in the marriage itself, would NOT be by escaping into the fantasy of sex with other men. Rather you would attempt to discuss the issues with your husband or otherwise deal with the issues directly in a manner which would not cause additional harm to your marriage.

Even if you don't actually follow through with it, fantasies about having sex with other men cannot possibly be helping your marriage, can they? Nor can they possibly help you to address whatever inadequacies you perceive as attributable to your husband.

The reason you are having these obsessive fantasies is because YOU have some sort of emotional issue or inadequacy which is impairing your ability to fully love your husband--not the other way around. So you are escaping into the fantasy of believing the problem can be solved by trading one man (your husband) for another man, whoever the fantasy person is. Ultimately you will find a real life person to be the focus of your fantasies. He will be your "soul mate". You will tell your husband you love him but you are not "in love" with him. 

That's how it generally works anyway. 

_Quote:
Do you think that just because someone says they think about having sex with people other than their spouse the marriage is doomed? _

You are now minimizing your (mental) behavior which is also classic rationalization typically seen in the unfaithful spouse. You aren't simply "thinking" about having sex with other people, you are heavily obsessing about it.

If all you were doing was occasionally having a daydream about a hot guy but not taking it very seriously then no probably no danger at all. In your case you have allowed your fantasies to already seriously damage your relationship with your husband.

So it needs to stop immediately. All of it. The fantasizing. The telling yourself that somehow it's your husband's fault that you're having these fantasies. You need to stop telling yourself that these fantasies are anything other than a very serious emotional issue on YOUR part which WILL destroy your marriage unless you very firmly and decisively and completely recommit "all in" to your husband and marriage, and also that you need therapy. 

Now if you are REALLY that dissatisfied with your marriage that you want to end it, then by all means do so, but not by sneakily having private fantasies which undermine your respect and love for your husband. Just get a divorce.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Ozzy,

You have stated that you love your wife. Therefore, you have an obligation to attempt to fix your relationship for this if no other reason. Start by working on yourself. Read MMSLP. Workout. Be more of a leader.

Stop enabling your wife by doing her homework.

Eating pvssy is good. It's just that you aren't into your wife, right now. I say give so many orgasms that she begs you to stop. Put her a position other than doggy and bang her just for yourself. Ankle earrings, perhaps? When you come she may, too.

What does she do with the money she saves?

Do you like Middle Eastern food and culture or are you sick of them now?

Your wife is entitled. She wastes money and takes you for granted. Is there anything good about her?

List her good points.

After you make an effort to change yourself and fix your marriage by all means divorce if you wish. Is not illegitimate.

You still have an opportunity to do a 180 on her and as you prepare to leave, she may change radically. Are you afraid that you can force her to change by the threat of divorce but that the cowed "improved" woman will be unattractive, in part because you had to coerce her instead of leading?

You are not so young. So, if you eventually divorce you may wish to find a new woman for an LTR. As you point out the doctor may not be the one.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Phew, Ozzy! I just realised something! Isn't it lucky that all of the problems in your marriage and your life are the fault of your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

I know it's hard for those who havebeen hurt, but I thik we should.keep in mind that despite his flaws and the situation the OP is in, he has taken the step of being vulnerable by sharing and reaching out for help. Be direct and honest, but I don't thinl preaching or name calling is constructive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

QuietSoul said:


> I know it's hard for those who havebeen hurt, but I thik we should.keep in mind that despite his flaws and the situation the OP is in, he has taken the step of being vulnerable by sharing and reaching out for help. Be direct and honest, but I don't thinl preaching or name calling is constructive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are trying to save Ozzy from his own worst enemy. Himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Ozzzy, I will share what jumped out at me about your OP. But before I do, I will share a little about myself.

I'm 31, H is 38, married 6 years. H is a sex addict in recovery and was sober when we met. He has been going to 12 step meetings since he was 20. 

My previous relationship was 4 years, was 17 when I met him and living out of home (another story) and we partied and had sex and I was up for whatever. I think it was mutual neediness that kept us together. We both cheated on eachother, me more than him,and as much as I felt I had my reasons, it was utterly soul destroying.

Even though I have not cheated on my H,, I sometimes have nightmares that I have, and I devastated.

So what jumped out at me... 

You were both pretty young when you met, and hooked up because you found eachother attractive (nothing wrong with that) and stayed together because... that's a question i'd like. To ask you. I know what brought you together, but what kept you together? What made.you want to spend time together? Did you enjoy conversations? Make eachother laugh? Was there a sense of friendship? What did you have in common earlier on, and what led you to believe you were in love? What made you want to marry eachother (besides sexual attraction)?

Even though you have both evolved (as people do), and even though you were young, you still made a commitment. You have had children together, she has moved to your country away from all her family, language, culture and everything she knows, to have a life with you. 

There are ups and downs in marriage, weak points, sore points, times when things feel a bit flat or too familiar. 

Regarding sex, i'm not your wife so I can't speak for her, but I know for me, I was more open to certain things when I was younger than I am now. Part of it I think was that I wanted him to love me more, or wanted to keep him interested, or was thinking "everyone does this", or just experimenting. I did things I didn't really want to do. And as i've gotten older, there are things I just won't do, A because I don't like it, or B because I don't feel right about it. BJ still on the menu lol but on the whole, i'm more vanilla. I'm with your wife on doggy. I hate it, it hurts, and I find it not intimate at all. 

If your sex has gone vanilla, it's kind of a natural progression, but it doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable for both. 

Maybe you can ask her (in a gentle way rather than confrontational) why her preferences have changed, or if she didn't like certain things to begin with. Could be a good coversation starter to find out that turns her on these days. 

Regarding the other woman...

Can I just say, that with her in the picture and with her on your mind, yu ate not in a sober enough state of mind to make a decision about your marriage. Get her out of your mind and your phone and your life, whatever it takes. And get accountable. This is a good start, but next, someone in your world needs to know. I can recommend SLAA (Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous). Even if you don't believe you are an addict, keep an open mind and go along to a few meetings. It may just save your marriage.

Is there a friend or brother or anyone you can talk to about this? It's really important to bring this into the light with another person. It can really help break the power. Also prayer really helps me. Afraid times there has. Been a kind of inappropriate connection between me and someone and I don't know why or how it got there, but I ask God to break it and remove its power from.me, and every time, i have felt a tangible difference
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Please listen to what Phil McGraw has to say here.

It really is something you need to burn into your brain. It's one of his best on this topic :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KDrqld9x8g

Others here have said it, but watching it in video may help it resonate more.

If you want to be that guy sitting in that chair one day, then go for it... bring deception, disrespect, and toxicity into your marriage, your home, and your family. Best of luck with that.

My wife isn't perfect, but I will never even consider cheating because I don't want to be sitting in that chair like that dude in that video. That is NOT where an intelligent mature adult wants to end up.

Best of luck with that.

w


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Please listen to what Phil McGraw has to say here.
> 
> It really is something you need to burn into your brain. It's one of his best on this topic :
> 
> ...


Yeah, take advice from the master of hypocrisy himself. We should all learn from the damning words of Dr Hypocrite the cheater. 

I don't see how anyone can recommend this hypocrite with all of his high and mighty attitude regarding cheating when he himself doesn't practice what he preaches. In the first 20 seconds all he does is belittle this guy for not treating his wife respectfully and sneaking around and cheating on her and how he should let her go to someone that deserves her instead of cheating on her and ruining her life. 

When the cameras are off he runs and does the same thing himself!! HYPOCRITE in the first degree. I wish someone would point this out to his face on his show when he is belittling them! Must be nice to think it is okay to throw stones down on the little people from his big glass house (and he has no shame in doing so even though he knows he was acting the same way). The host in this case is no better than the one in the chair (and should be in the chair himself).


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Yeah, take advice from the master of hypocrisy himself. We should all learn from the damning words of Dr Hypocrite the cheater.
> 
> I don't see how anyone can recommend this hypocrite with all of his high and mighty attitude regarding cheating when he himself doesn't practice what he preaches. In the first 20 seconds all he does is belittle this guy for not treating his wife respectfully and sneaking around and cheating on her and how he should let her go to someone that deserves her instead of cheating on her and ruining her life.
> 
> When the cameras are off he runs and does the same thing himself!! HYPOCRITE in the first degree. I wish someone would point this out to his face on his show when he is belittling them! Must be nice to think it is okay to throw stones down on the little people from his big glass house (and he has no shame in doing so even though he knows he was acting the same way). The host in this case is no better than the one in the chair (and should be in the chair himself).


Why don't you then open a thread about Phil McGraw rather than hyjacking this one?

Your comment really does not belong here. It may be worth discussing, but it really belongs in it's own thread, not here. I will not comment on anything regarding what you had to say about McGraw here. The advice is what's posted and at issue, not McGraw or what rumors you may have heard.

Attacking someone's character (based on rumours all the more so) does not at all dismiss the argument they make.

His ADVICE is top notch and this poster here needs to take that advice to heart.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

QuietSoul said:


> So what jumped out at me...
> 
> You were both pretty young when you met, and hooked up because you found each other attractive (nothing wrong with that) and stayed together because... that's a question i'd like. To ask you. I know what brought you together, but what kept you together? What made.you want to spend time together? Did you enjoy conversations? Make each other laugh? Was there a sense of friendship? What did you have in common earlier on, and what led you to believe you were in love? What made you want to marry each other (besides sexual attraction)?
> 
> ...


Excellent post QuietSoul.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> I will reply to the rest, but I wanted to cover this right now since it's urgent.
> 
> As usual, I am going to factor the ethics out of this to make my point, since discussing ethics with someone who has a cheating mentality is pointless.
> 
> ...


What's funny is that the way you say that I would feel after I've cheated.....I feel that way right now! Since making this thread and digging up these old thoughts, I've been looking at my wife differently. Just yesterday, I told her that we needed to go to counseling to work on the problems in our marriage. All she said was "I'd love to do that". When I came home, I was expecting her to say something about it since my comment sort of came out of the blue. She never even mentioned it. Maybe she was waiting on me to say something about it but I didn't because I wanted to see how long could she pretend that there are no issues in our marriage right now.

I'm really confused about where I am right now. When she texts me, I text her back although my responses are cold. A few nights ago, she took a shower and put on something sexy. I was up doing some work and she kept asking me what time was I coming to sleep. I just kept telling her it would be a little while longer even though I could have went at any time that I wanted. She eventually fell asleep and I just stayed up a few hours longer playing my guitar. It's obvious that she wanted sex but I felt that I was totally disgusted with her and that I couldn't imagine sleeping with her then.

Maybe it's the attraction to the other woman.......I just don't know. I've been thinking about her a lot and although I know what I should be doing, I just don't know how to bring myself to do it. I don't know what sort of counseling or help will make me feel differently about my wife. I'm just so frustrated and I know that things won't get better by going down this path.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What's funny is that the way you say that I would feel after I've cheated.....I feel that way right now!


OK, so having an affair will make you feel the way you feel right now.. "unhappy" according to you... And critical of your wife.. why do it?

If having an affair will make you feel unhappy, then why on earth even contemplate doing something that will make you feel a negative experience you already do NOW?

Your own logic there man. You just refused your own position.

I would suggest you have NO IDEA how much worse infidelity will make what you are feeling now.. feelings are subject to a lot of gradation. But.. that's just my opinion.

Infidelity will only amplify your disappointment, frustration, resentment, and negativity. Despite your suggestion that infidelity will quell these negative emotions.. I suggest you think again. Experience on this forum has proven time and time again that infidelity just makes things worse for YOU.

But here you are.. after six pages, still arguing a case as to how cheating will make things better for you.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Why don't you then open a thread about Phil McGraw rather than hyjacking this one?
> 
> Your comment really does not belong here. It may be worth discussing, but it really belongs in it's own thread, not here. I will not comment on anything regarding what you had to say about McGraw here. The advice is what's posted and at issue, not McGraw or what rumors you may have heard.
> 
> ...


Sorry but it belongs just as much as anyone else's. Don't like my comments, sorry but it is a free internet. You can back him all you want but it was part of the basis for his first divorce, and his reason for disciplinary action by the Texas board regarding his license (the girl involved in that action claims it happened just as did his first wife), so I am not going to defend him or retract my statements, and I don't see how it is an attack on his character when it is the truth??

Agreed that the information is good, but it is in no way advice just his viewpoints for a given situation. His delivery is awful, belittling, and denigrating (screaming and yelling should not be an option for a therapist and objectivity should be a requirement).

If you find them relevant and appropriate, that is your viewpoint, but it doesn't mean that my viewpoint is so wrong and out of place and uncalled for as you think it is.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I told her that we needed to go to counseling to work on the problems in our marriage. All she said was "I'd love to do that". When I came home, I was expecting her to say something about it since my comment sort of came out of the blue. She never even mentioned it. Maybe she was waiting on me to say something about it but I didn't because I wanted to see how long could she pretend that there are no issues in our marriage right now.


That is classic passive aggression.

STOP playing HEAD games and book an appointment.

Stop playing "test the waters" games. Work on your marriage without the head games.

Be straight forward and forthcoming, quit with the smoke and mirrors crap.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

QuietSoul said:


> Ozzzy, I will share what jumped out at me about your OP. But before I do, I will share a little about myself.
> 
> I'm 31, H is 38, married 6 years. H is a sex addict in recovery and was sober when we met. He has been going to 12 step meetings since he was 20.
> 
> ...


Ok here is how it all started.....

I had a job working overseas. My contract was supposed to be for 1 year. About a month into the job, I met my wife. We just instantly fell in love. She was there on a work visa. All we pretty much did was party and have sex. We didn't really talk much because there was a little language barrier. Besides, I was only 20 and didn't have much to talk about other than sex, rock, and video games. There was a strong physical attraction between us.

Around a few weeks after I met her, my work contract was modified and I had to come back to the states early. I was devastated because I liked her a lot. I made the decision to ask her to marry me and she said yes. I bought her a ring before I left and started her process when I got back.

When she first got here, she didn't know anyone besides a few distant relatives in other states. I taught her how to drive and other things about our culture. She told me at the time that she had a dream of becoming a nurse. Since I had a pretty good salary at the time, I told her to go to school and I would work full time to support her. She initially agreed but didn't really seem interested in going to school. She said that she would rather work first so she could meet new people and do something with her time. In her defense, I was often at work for 16 hours out of the day. Sometimes, I couldn't come home for a full day. She was bored and didn't know anyone so that's why she wanted to work instead. A couple years later, our first son was born and that's how we came to this point.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> If you find them relevant and appropriate, that is your viewpoint, but it doesn't mean that my viewpoint is so wrong and out of place and uncalled for as you think it is.


''

It does not belong on this thread no. A detailed discussion of any of McGraw's rumored failings has no relevance to this posters marital problems. Sorry, it is irrelevant here.

The internet may be free, but this forum's threads are expected to stay on topic. Please, you can hate McGraw all you want, just please don't clutter up this thread about it. It does not belong in this thread.

I have opened up a thread specifically for your concerns, please use that thread.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What's funny is that the way you say that I would feel after I've cheated.....I feel that way right now! Since making this thread and digging up these old thoughts, I've been looking at my wife differently. Just yesterday, I told her that we needed to go to counseling to work on the problems in our marriage. All she said was "I'd love to do that". When I came home, I was expecting her to say something about it since my comment sort of came out of the blue. She never even mentioned it. Maybe she was waiting on me to say something about it but I didn't because I wanted to see how long could she pretend that there are no issues in our marriage right now.
> 
> I'm really confused about where I am right now. When she texts me, I text her back although my responses are cold. A few nights ago, she took a shower and put on something sexy. I was up doing some work and she kept asking me what time was I coming to sleep. I just kept telling her it would be a little while longer even though I could have went at any time that I wanted. She eventually fell asleep and I just stayed up a few hours longer playing my guitar. It's obvious that she wanted sex but I felt that I was totally disgusted with her and that I couldn't imagine sleeping with her then.
> 
> Maybe it's the attraction to the other woman.......I just don't know. I've been thinking about her a lot and although I know what I should be doing, I just don't know how to bring myself to do it. I don't know what sort of counseling or help will make me feel differently about my wife. I'm just so frustrated and I know that things won't get better by going down this path.


It is not that counseling will make you feel different about your wife, but it gives both of you a chance to deal with your feelings in a safe environment. It may be that you are truly out of love with your wife (as it happens) and your M is over. If that is the case, at least you can deal with that and move on in the least hurtful manner. 

MC isn't always about saving a M as people think it is. It can also be about ending it easier and making things better for the individuals, and families involved. It all depends on what couples want out of it. If your intent going into the sessions is just to end it amicably and make things easier for the kids that is acceptable as well. 

You will never know until you try. It sounds like neither of you know what to do or say and tho is hurting your M immensely. Neither wants to bring up a subject for fear of where it might lead, or how explosive it might get. In the counselor's office this environment can be controlled by the counselor and thus make it easier for both sides to address their feelings and hurt.

Be the bigger man and make the first move to attempt the counseling. At least if it still doesn't work out and separation is best for your relationship, you can say that you tried everything before tainting it fully. Infidelity never makes things better, and you aren't assured that you are going to be more sexually or personality compatible with the new infatuation.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> OK, so having an affair will make you feel the way you feel right now.. "unhappy" according to you... And critical of your wife.. why do it?
> 
> If having an affair will make you feel unhappy, then why on earth even contemplate doing something that will make you feel a negative experience you already do NOW?
> 
> ...


What I logically can't get my head around is how would cheating (the act of sex) make things worse. What if I didn't cheat and went to counseling. My wife tries to work on some of her issues but still doesn't do the things I want sexually. From man to man, how would you feel if your wife told you that there would be no more blow jobs? Maybe if I was 90 but come on man, at my age, that's probably one of the worse things that a man can be told. This isn't the only sex act that I'm unhappy about but I'm using that one as an example.

The way I see it, if another woman can satisfy me sexually, then I wouldn't give a flying fvck if my wife didn't want to do what I liked in the bedroom. I would be content with getting it from somewhere else. I mean, what does she expect if sex is always on her terms? Why does everyone else get to have a fulfilling sex life except for me. 

I've built a life for my family that will be destroyed if/when I leave. For their benefit, it's better that I stay. I get that. Does that mean I should live the rest of my life being unhappy?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> ''
> 
> It does not belong on this thread no. A detailed discussion of any of McGraw's rumored failings has no relevance to this posters marital problems. Sorry, it is irrelevant here.
> 
> The internet may be free, but this forum's threads are expected to stay on topic. Please, you can hate McGraw all you want, just please don't clutter up this thread about it. It does not belong in this thread.


Then neither does your sidetrack and directives belong!!! Keep it to yourself and stay on topic as you suggest (take your own advice for once). Moderators (of which you are not one, even though you think you are and act like it) are here for a reason, contact them and let them do their job if you have a problem with or want my "off topic" posts removed. 

I am done with your issues and enough said on this. Respond if you feel you must, but I am done with your indignation.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What I logically can't get my head around is how would cheating (the act of sex) make things worse. What if I didn't cheat and went to counseling. My wife tries to work on some of her issues but still doesn't do the things I want sexually. From man to man, how would you feel if your wife told you that there would be no more blow jobs? Maybe if I was 90 but come on man, at my age, that's probably one of the worse things that a man can be told. This isn't the only sex act that I'm unhappy about but I'm using that one as an example.
> 
> The way I see it, if another woman can satisfy me sexually, then I wouldn't give a flying fvck if my wife didn't want to do what I liked in the bedroom. I would be content with getting it from somewhere else. I mean, what does she expect if sex is always on her terms? Why does everyone else get to have a fulfilling sex life except for me.
> 
> I've built a life for my family that will be destroyed if/when I leave. For their benefit, it's better than I stay. I get that. Does that mean I should live the rest of my life being unhappy?


So you think that cake eating is going to make your life better?? If all you are is about the sex acts then it is time to move on with your life and end your marriage or have an open marriage if your wife agrees (but without talking to her you'll never know).

Sex is an intimate thing with women, and they are more willing to do things that would specifically please you solely, when you are giving them things that would please them as well. What does she get from the act of a BJ to satisfy her? She is not your slave and only here to satisfy your every whim, thought, and desire? Which is what I get from this. If you get the sex somewhere else you would then leave her alone. Great that makes your life better but what about hers? Doesn't she deserve the same satisfactions that you do??

You admit that you are withholding sex from your wife, since she doesn't do the acts you want. SO you are punishing her because she is not giving you what you want. I don't get mine, she doesn't get hers attitude is not healthy. This downward spiral is only going to make things worse. As she feels more distant from you, she is less willing to do these acts, which makes you withdraw, which makes her less attracted, etc. See the chain of events in progress?? Maybe you in fact might have a sex addiction that needs to be addressed and your habits aren't those of the average person (might just be high drive against her low drive as well). Should your wife be made to suffer or feel less satisfied due to your possible addiction?? 

These are the types of things that will be addressed in counseling. Do you feel that because you are home your family is better off for it (as are you really there)? Yes, you may have built a good home for your family, but it is not a good environment now when the heads of that household despise one another, never interact, and withdraw from the family. You may not think you are, but I can bet that you are giving off an aura that says stay away from me to all around you (you are becoming unapproachable and standoffish, I would bet).

What makes you think that everyone else is having a satisfied and enriched sex life? Sometimes it is not possible. If you feel entitled now, you wouldn't be accepting at 90 either! You need to divorce and move on as all you seem to want is a sex slave to satisfy your every need and want (and what makes you think this girl is so open to your needs and performing those carts, if your conversation has gone there already it could be nothing more than her way of teasing).


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> So you think that cake eating is going to make your life better?? If all you are is about the sex acts then it is time to move on with your life and end your marriage or have an open marriage if your wife agrees (but without talking to her you'll never know).
> 
> Sex is an intimate thing with women, and they are more willing to do things that would specifically please you solely, when you are giving them things that would please them as well. What does she get from the act of a BJ to satisfy her? She is not your slave and only here to satisfy your every whim, thought, and desire?
> 
> ...


That downward spiral you mention has probably been going on for long before I made this thread. Yes, I find myself with holding sex and I feel justified. What's the point of having sex if it's on her terms and we only do what she approves of?

Believe me, I've tried talking about it in the past. I've tried asking her why she doesn't like certain things. I've tried telling her (or physically putting her) in certain positions during sex and it always ends in a fail. I stuck with it and STILL did the things she liked because I hoped that things would get better........They haven't. I don't think I am a sex addict but even if I were, who better to satisfy my addiction than my wife? It's not like I'm asking her for blood diamonds. All my requests have been denied for too long and I'm frustrated.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> That is classic passive aggression.
> 
> STOP playing HEAD games and book an appointment.
> 
> ...


Classic case of a covert contract straight from the No More Mr Nice Guy manual.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> that's probably one of the worse things that a man can be told.


Friend, you have a lot of growing up to do.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> That downward spiral you mention has probably been going on for long before I made this thread. Yes, I find myself with holding sex and I feel justified. What's the point of having sex if it's on her terms and we only do what she approves of?
> 
> Believe me, I've tried talking about it in the past. I've tried asking her why she doesn't like certain things. I've tried telling her (or physically putting her) in certain positions during sex and it always ends in a fail. I stuck with it and STILL did the things she liked because I hoped that things would get better........They haven't. I don't think I am a sex addict but even if I were, who better to satisfy my addiction than my wife? It's not like I'm asking her for blood diamonds. All my requests have been denied for too long and I'm frustrated.


So the question you posed is a double edged sword. Don't you see how she may feel the exact same way about having sex when it always must meet your approval, positions, and demands? Just trying to get you to see that two sides exist to this coin. Just like you, she is probably disconnected and feels why do something when it is only meeting your needs and desires.

Forcing positions on her in the middle of the acts are not going to fix anything and make it happen easier.  Most do the exact opposite and become a show stopper. As for sex addiction, t is not always that simple to just tell someone to do something that they hate because you have issues. 

What if something in her past (rape, abuse, etc that you don't know about, and she had bottled away) went along with the BJs and other acts to make her feel defiled. Is it fair for you to request that of her because you feel that you "deserve" that action because you provide a decent environment for her, even if it is at her expense mentally, emotionally, and physically (which may be the equivalent to her of asking her for blood diamonds)

This is why you need to visit counseling to address all possibilities. Just because she starts doing these acts for you, if you do have a sexual addiction, her actions will not hide it and heal you. You will still have them and they may and probably will get worse.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> From man to man, how would you feel if your wife told you that there would be no more blow jobs? Maybe if I was 90 but come on man, at my age, that's probably one of the worse things that a man can be told.


I wish that my life was that easy and carefree if that is the worse thing a man can be told. I( can think of several others that were worse, and not in any particular order but I have experienced most of them, not all but most):

Being told that your wife did them for other men, when she was cheating on you? 

Finding out that the child is not yours but some other guys?

You or a loved one has a terminal illness with only a short time to live?

Your loved one was just killed, raped, enter other bad thought here?

You are being sent off to war and may never see your family again?

The list goes on and makes your first world problem seem like a joke comparatively IMHO (as was said by another, you have lots of growing up and maturing to do).


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> So the question you posed is a double edged sword. Don't you see how she may feel the exact same way about having sex when it always must meet your approval, positions, and demands? Just trying to get you to see that two sides exist to this coin. Just like you, she is probably disconnected and feels why do something when it is only meeting your needs and desires.
> 
> Forcing positions on her in the middle of the acts are not going to fix anything and make it happen easier. Most do the exact opposite and become a show stopper. As for sex addiction, t is not always that simple to just tell someone to do something that they hate because you have issues.
> 
> ...


That's the part that angers me. I know nothing in her past has caused her to become like this. I believe it's pure laziness and complacency. If she told me what she didn't like to do back when we met, it would have been my decision as to whether or not I would accept her as she was. 

What she did was create a woman that was into all those things and was ambitious in life when in reality, it was all a hoax. Honestly, I feel sort of duped even though I ultimately made the decision to marry her.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> I wish that my life was that easy and carefree if that is the worse thing a man can be told. I( can think of several others that were worse, and not in any particular order but I have experienced most of them, not all but most):
> 
> Being told that your wife did them for other men, when she was cheating on you?
> 
> ...


Ok, maybe my example was bit a extreme but inside the bedroom, I think that's one of the worst things that a man can be told.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> Ok, maybe my example was bit a extreme but inside the bedroom, I think that's one of the worst things that a man can be told.


Your not being told no more sex at all. you are being told no more of a certain few acts. That is completely different. I just don't get nor see your sense of entitlement. 

Would you be fine with your wife going out and getting sex from someone else and not giving you any nor showing any interest in you in the bedroom?

If your answer is anything other than *absolutely, without a doubt, yes* then it seems that you think the double standard is fine. You are not meeting her needs (in fact you have stopped trying to meet them through malicious methods), so it only seems fair for her to be able to go outside the M to get them met elsewhere, as that is what you are implying here with your arguments that it i fine for you to do such actions.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

OP.
BS doesn't fulfil you sexually and you wouldn't give a "flying fVck" about cheating to get what you want elsewhere? 

BS tried to seduce you the other night but you didn't take the bait and sulked. No point in talking about it to her now is there. "My way or the highway." 

What does the hot doc like to do in bed? Does she do doggie? What if she doesn't? Oh, I forgot. You're intellectually attracted to her also. Some women on here said doggie hurts. Or find it demeaning which they didn't in their 20s. You ignored it. Instead you asked all the men how they would feel if they never got a bj again, "as an extreme example" you said. 

BS texts you but you send "cold" texts back? More sulking. That should fix your family. Seems BS is trying by seducing you which didn't work and sending you texts which isn't working either. 

Your frustration is jumping off the page and it's not only sexual. You're focusing on sex, perhaps to have the men on here agree with you and your "flying fvck" remark and give you a free pass. I imagine most of them would say that if you are that sexually incompatible and you are not willing to even discuss it but instead sulk, then get a divorce.

Be honest with yourself. Deep down you don't want to fix your marriage. Despite the many pages of posters' advice on your thread, the best you could come up with was if your BS doesn't fulfill you sexually, you wouldn't give a flying fvck about getting it elsewhere. 

Meh.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What she did was create a woman that was into all those things and was ambitious in life when in reality, it was all a hoax. Honestly, I feel sort of duped even though I ultimately made the decision to marry her.


It was a hoax...

OR

a. She's changed, people DO change over time, that's why you take vows to keep your marriage in tact despite those changes forthcoming... richer or poorer, sickness and health etc...
b. She was this way all the time, but YOU didn't see the warning signs, or chose to ignore them


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> That's the part that angers me. I know nothing in her past has caused her to become like this. I believe it's pure laziness and complacency. If she told me what she didn't like to do back when we met, it would have been my decision as to whether or not I would accept her as she was.
> 
> What she did was create a woman that was into all those things and was ambitious in life when in reality, it was all a hoax. Honestly, I feel sort of duped even though I ultimately made the decision to marry her.


You know for a fact that nothing happened in her past, how? You would be surprised how many people hide very intimate things such as abuse and rape from their spouses and families and it never comes out until something in therapy triggers it or after the persons death, because they are afraid of the stigma or were threatened by the individual (I had went through my entire life never knowing that my Grandfather sexually abused my mom and her siblings when they were younger. They all kept it hidden from everyone and nothing ever came out until my mom went to therapy for my dad's infidelity, that was over 50 years later after the molestation happened.). The human minds ability to compartmentalize and hide things is unfathomable.

There is also the option that child birth has changed something and things she used to do and enjoy are now no longer fun for her and in fact may be painful. Would it be wrong for her not to want to do something that causes her pain and maybe shame. If it is something caused by changes, have the two of you discussed it and had a meeting with her gyno, as it could be something that can be possibly fixed through surgery, medication, etc? If not it may be something that you will have to decide if you can live with and if not D before going PA (you are already cheating).

What if she enjoyed poking a finger in your butt during sex and you liked it when younger but as age and hemorrhoids took over you decided you no longer liked it, would it be terrible for you to tell her no more finger up there during sex? Seems logical to me. Would that give her the right to go find someone that liked anal/ finger play?? I say no!


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## StayInIt (Jul 27, 2012)

I would never blow a dude who insisted on hurting me with his ****. End of story. You are disgusted by her vag. You don't value anything she does or says, you have utter contempt for her and you don't have what it takes to he a husband. Divorce her right away- maybe then she can look forward to a sex life with a partner who does NOT INSIST ON HAVING PAINFUL SEX
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

Ok....I know this has been so much better by others, but... some reason I have been pulled in by this story. 

Here is what I see in you...my ex wife. Oh...she sucked by the way. She also had a distorted view of reality that she built up so that she could justify her cheating. It is like looking at ripples in a pond. 

You have building blocks to work with that can save your marriage... I would of killed to have had what you have now.: 

First, it seems that you have a faithful wife, that in itself is worth quite a bit. I think there are many on here that know how rare that is. 

Second, you have a wife that is somewhat content with her life. Wish I did... I wish just once my wife was not morning the loss of teen years...BS. Because that is what it was. 

Third, you seem overly concerned with a single sex act. You ask how I would feel if I was cut off from BJ's. I think I could cope. At least you have a wife that wants to be with YOU. I would not care what the hell she wanted to do. 

Forth, you created/enabled a lot of the structure in your marriage. If you do not like it....it is your own fault. That is not to say people can not change. 

If you feel that strongly about it (and are really as shallow as you come across), then please just leave your wife.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

RNS said:


> First, it seems that you have a faithful wife, that in itself is worth quite a bit. I think there are many on here that know how rare that is.


Thank you. I was hoping someone would say this.

When the infidelity rate for females is approaching what.. 40%.. I think the OP should count his lucky stars that his wife isn't out there in the back seat of some douche-bag's car giving some OTHER guy blowjobs.

Good grief, loyalty is an increasingly rare commodity. Cherish it!

I am sure there are a lot of men here who would be happy to have a spouse who didn't want to learn more English if she could just keep her legs closed.

OR, to put this more bluntly to the OP.. be glad your wife doesn't have YOUR attitude towards marriage, thinking she can be happier by spreading her legs for another man.


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## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

What Allen Said


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> Thank you. I was hoping someone would say this.
> 
> When the infidelity rate for females is approaching what.. 40%.. I think the OP should count his lucky stars that his wife isn't out there in the back seat of some douche-bag's car giving some OTHER guy blowjobs.
> 
> ...


What's to say that she hasn't/isn't cheating on me? There were instances in the past where I suspected her of cheating but I dismissed them because I couldn't get enough evidence. I didn't really feel the need to bring that up before because that really doesn't have anything to do with my current problems with her.

I think the reason why I'm having trouble taking a lot of the advice here seriously is because you refuse to take any of my complaints seriously. For every fault that I've listed here, you guys have come up with countless excuses as to why it's happening and then you are trying to flip it on me like I have a mental problem (that has been said at least once in this thread). There's no doubt (in my mind) that the environment I am in has pushed me to the brink of breaking my vows. You guys are trying to twist things like I am imagining everything and I should just "deal with it" since it's the bed I made. I shouldn't have to put up with a ****ty wife just because I don't have proof that shes ever cheated on me.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

RNS said:


> Ok....I know this has been so much better by others, but... some reason I have been pulled in by this story.
> 
> Here is what I see in you...my ex wife. Oh...she sucked by the way. She also had a distorted view of reality that she built up so that she could justify her cheating. It is like looking at ripples in a pond.
> 
> ...


You could say that I was overly concerned with multiple sex acts. I don't think that's unreasonable for 2 adults. You said you think you could cope. Maybe that would work for a few weeks to a few months. If you've been going through this for multiple years like I have, you would see that coping is impossible. Also, I have multiple issues with her besides sex.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What's to say that she hasn't/isn't cheating on me? There were instances in the past where I suspected her of cheating but I dismissed them because I couldn't get enough evidence. I didn't really feel the need to bring that up before because that really doesn't have anything to do with my current problems with her.
> 
> I think the reason why I'm having trouble taking a lot of the advice here seriously is because you refuse to take any of my complaints seriously. For every fault that I've listed here, you guys have come up with countless excuses as to why it's happening and then you are trying to flip it on me like I have a mental problem (that has been said at least once in this thread). There's no doubt (in my mind) that the environment I am in has pushed me to the brink of breaking my vows. You guys are trying to twist things like I am imagining everything and I should just "deal with it" since it's the bed I made. I shouldn't have to put up with a ****ty wife just because I don't have proof that shes ever cheated on me.


Then as has been said several times in this thread, get out. Divorce and move on. You want everyone to just slap you on the back and congratulate you for wanting to cheat on your wife. Sorry but that isn't going to happen. Have suggested counseling but all you want is to do is say it won't help you feel for your wife. If all you want is someone to congratulate you on your EA and approve of your plans to go PA. Then you are on the wrong site. Sorry but you say no one is listening to your complaints. We have seen, heard, and experienced them firsthand so we are not wanting to here more justifications for why you should destroy someone's life. Of yours is destroyed by her actions, then sorry for your pain and it is time to move one. Two wrongs don't make a right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> You know for a fact that nothing happened in her past, how? You would be surprised how many people hide very intimate things such as abuse and rape from their spouses and families and it never comes out until something in therapy triggers it or after the persons death, because they are afraid of the stigma or were threatened by the individual (I had went through my entire life never knowing that my Grandfather sexually abused my mom and her siblings when they were younger. They all kept it hidden from everyone and nothing ever came out until my mom went to therapy for my dad's infidelity, that was over 50 years later after the molestation happened.). The human minds ability to compartmentalize and hide things is unfathomable.
> 
> There is also the option that child birth has changed something and things she used to do and enjoy are now no longer fun for her and in fact may be painful. Would it be wrong for her not to want to do something that causes her pain and maybe shame. If it is something caused by changes, have the two of you discussed it and had a meeting with her gyno, as it could be something that can be possibly fixed through surgery, medication, etc? If not it may be something that you will have to decide if you can live with and if not D before going PA (you are already cheating).
> 
> What if she enjoyed poking a finger in your butt during sex and you liked it when younger but as age and hemorrhoids took over you decided you no longer liked it, would it be terrible for you to tell her no more finger up there during sex? Seems logical to me. Would that give her the right to go find someone that liked anal/ finger play?? I say no!


I can't disagree with anything that you said. The issue is that after years of going through this, she has not revealed any reason as to why she has changed. It's pretty much "I don't like it" or "I don't want to do that" or "That hurts". If she had some underlying issue, I would be the person to talk to. I think I've been too nice and giving for a very long time and I'm starting to see that she used my kindness as a weakness. I've been reason the "No more Mr. Nice Guy" book and a lot of those topics are hitting home. 

Getting back on track, I believe that the freedom I have given her in this marriage and my lack of speaking up has caused her to have a "just deal with it" attitude towards me. That's why I've been getting upset reading a lot of posts here. I feel like everyone is crashing down on me and blaming me. She pretty much tells me that I'm the blame for all our marital issues and if it's anything that needs fixin, it's me.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What's to say that she hasn't/isn't cheating on me? There were instances in the past where I suspected her of cheating but I dismissed them because I couldn't get enough evidence. I didn't really feel the need to bring that up before because that really doesn't have anything to do with my current problems with her.


And your evidence to suggest she is cheating on you IS???

Do you know how many actively cheating spouses actually try turn the tables like that and actually accuse the betrayed spouse of cheating? Pot calling the kettle black there.

You are already cheating.

I think if you had any good reasons to suspect she was cheating you would have brought them up nine+ pages ago.



ozzzy said:


> I think the reason why I'm having trouble taking a lot of the advice here seriously is because you refuse to take any of my complaints seriously


We are taking your complaints and putting them in perspective.

YOU don't like the perspective.

Compared to what you are doing, sorry, your spouse is on a pretty respectable level.

You are deceiving your spouse
You are conspiring with another woman
You are violating the private details of your marriage to another woman
You are complaining about your wife to another woman in private
You are fantasizing about having sex with another woman
You are pursuing a relationship with another woman/used to be pursuing

You don't seem to take these offenses seriously. This is why affairs happen. People with your mindset naively commit these offenses and end up making ridiculous comparisons and temptations... infidelity soon follows.



ozzzy said:


> . For every fault that I've listed here, you guys have come up with countless excuses as to why it's happening


we are playing devils' advocate. That's the appropriate response given that your wife is not here to defend herself.

NONE of your compaints warrant you cheating on her because there is no reason, theory or circumstance that warrants you cheating on your spouse. If you don't want your relationship, get OUT of it. You always always always finish one relationship BEFORE you begin another.'



ozzzy said:


> and then you are trying to flip it on me like I have a mental problem (that has been said at least once in this thread).


I think that was an anomaly. I think most people here simply think you have some maturation to develop in how you manage your relationships... at least that's my informal take on the responses so far.



ozzzy said:


> There's no doubt (in my mind) that the environment I am in has pushed me to the brink of breaking my vows.


Myself and others have typed til we are blue in the fingers that people do not DRIVE you to cheat. YOU CHOOSE to cheat rather than choosing one of a hundred or more alternatives that are more mature and constructive.



ozzzy said:


> You guys are trying to twist things like I am imagining everything and I should just "deal with it" since it's the bed I made. I shouldn't have to put up with a ****ty wife just because I don't have proof that shes ever cheated on me.


What exactly are you prepared to own in your marriage? How exactly do you think YOU are contaminating the situation?

I don't think you should deal with it. But I do think you need to mature a bit and get some perspective. The degree of bitterness and resentment you are feeling is disproportionate to the situation you are in.

Dude, there are people on this forum who have wives and husbands going down on another spouse in secret and then coming home to climb into bed with them still sticky from their deceitful and abusive behavior.

DESPITE that level of offense, these spouses are "dealing with it" and willing to reconcile. But here you are bitter and resentful far moreso, and your spouse isn't even looking at another man. And you admit you have no evidence to suggest she is.

More to the point... even if your wife was OPENLY CHEATING on you most people here would STILL tell you to man up, and that inviting a FOURTH person into this marriage would be a stupid move on your part.

Your wife isn't' even cheating on you. Cherish that and get away from OW, she's making your brain find the stupidest solutions look attractive.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Then as has been said several times in this thread, get out. Divorce and move on. You want everyone to just slap you on the back and congratulate you for wanting to cheat on your wife. Sorry but that isn't going to happen. Have suggested counseling but all you want is to do is say it won't help you feel for your wife. If all you want is someone to congratulate you on your EA and approve of your plans to go PA. Then you are on the wrong site. Sorry but you say no one is listening to your complaints. We have seen, heard, and experienced them firsthand so we are not wanting to here more justifications for why you should destroy someone's life. Of yours is destroyed by her actions, then sorry for your pain and it is time to move one. Two wrongs don't make a right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you know what? That's really where I'm leaning right now. She's seems genuinely happy now but that doesn't matter to me anymore since I haven't been happy for a long time. I'm going to schedule marriage counseling and give her an ultimatum. She needs to be more open sexually towards what I want to do, work harder on getting her education, and start helping out more financially. 

That list of 3 things doesn't sound like too much to ask. I've been asking for years and I keep being kicked to the curb. If she enjoys living in this big house and driving her BMW then she'll change. If she doesn't want to change then **** it. At least I can say that I gave her a shot and then I'll move on.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> What's to say that she hasn't/isn't cheating on me? There were instances in the past where I suspected her of cheating but I dismissed them because I couldn't get enough evidence. I didn't really feel the need to bring that up before because that really doesn't have anything to do with my current problems with her.
> 
> I think the reason why I'm having trouble taking a lot of the advice here seriously is because you refuse to take any of my complaints seriously. For every fault that I've listed here, you guys have come up with countless excuses as to why it's happening and then you are trying to flip it on me like I have a mental problem (that has been said at least once in this thread). There's no doubt (in my mind) that the environment I am in has pushed me to the brink of breaking my vows. You guys are trying to twist things like I am imagining everything and I should just "deal with it" since it's the bed I made. I shouldn't have to put up with a ****ty wife just because I don't have proof that shes ever cheated on me.


Ah there it is. There is the next step in the rationalization of a cheater. Because you are cheating she must be also. Wow, is this following the script.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> You could say that I was overly concerned with multiple sex acts. I don't think that's unreasonable for 2 adults. You said you think you could cope. Maybe that would work for a few weeks to a few months. If you've been going through this for multiple years like I have, you would see that coping is impossible. Also, I have multiple issues with her besides sex.


You have a wife that tries to initiate sex. Do you know how rare that is? Have you looked around the "Sex in Marriage" section of TAM? Geesh!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

You both need fixing - especially your communication between each other.

Don't be a cake eater. If you are that unhappy sit your your wife down and say "I'm unhappy, if we don't fix our issues I will file for divorce. We need to go to MC and IC and learn how to communicate properly"

If she refuses or gives excuses, well then you have your answer on how hard she wants to fix things. File for divorce and move on with your life. 

Be a man - deal with it head on, don't go cheating behind her back.


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## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> What's to say that she hasn't/isn't cheating on me? There were instances in the past where I suspected her of cheating but I dismissed them because I couldn't get enough evidence. I didn't really feel the need to bring that up before because that really doesn't have anything to do with my current problems with her.
> 
> I think the reason why I'm having trouble taking a lot of the advice here seriously is because you refuse to take any of my complaints seriously. For every fault that I've listed here, you guys have come up with countless excuses as to why it's happening and then you are trying to flip it on me like I have a mental problem (that has been said at least once in this thread). There's no doubt (in my mind) that the environment I am in has pushed me to the brink of breaking my vows. You guys are trying to twist things like I am imagining everything and I should just "deal with it" since it's the bed I made. I shouldn't have to put up with a ****ty wife just because I don't have proof that shes ever cheated on me.



I am not saying your wife does not have faults... We all do. 
(or at least I know I do ) 

What I am saying is that you are approaching your situation 
with a sort of blinders on. You seem to only dwelling on the things that upset you and not appreciating what you do have. If there is more to your story that we do not know.... still DO NOT CHEAT. 

To grow you need to be able to look in the mirror and see who you are. I am no expert...(one failed marriage does not a success make  ), but be a unbiased (as much as possible) outsider, what I would suggest is getting IC 1st before giving the your wife a ultimatum. Work on you 1st. Then if the pros think you may be onto something...then do you ultimatum thing, if that does not work, Divorce. DO NOT CHEAT. EVER. 

To some extent you are already cheating. You do realize that? Talking to the other woman has you there.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> And you know what? That's really where I'm leaning right now. She's seems genuinely happy now but that doesn't matter to me anymore since I haven't been happy for a long time. I'm going to schedule marriage counseling and give her an ultimatum. She needs to be more open sexually towards what I want to do, work harder on getting her education, and start helping out more financially.
> 
> That list of 3 things doesn't sound like too much to ask. I've been asking for years and I keep being kicked to the curb. If she enjoys living in this big house and driving her BMW then she'll change. If she doesn't want to change then **** it. At least I can say that I gave her a shot and then I'll move on.


I can see the future now. You are going to skip from woman to woman constantly finding issues with each one until you are tired and frustrated. Then you'll go crawling back to your wife but guess what? She'll have found someone else who will treat her like more than a combination sex doll/housekeeper/babysitter.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> And you know what? That's really where I'm leaning right now. She's seems genuinely happy now but that doesn't matter to me anymore since I haven't been happy for a long time. I'm going to schedule marriage counseling and give her an ultimatum. She needs to be more open sexually towards what I want to do, work harder on getting her education, and start helping out more financially.
> 
> That list of 3 things doesn't sound like too much to ask. I've been asking for years and I keep being kicked to the curb. If she enjoys living in this big house and driving her BMW then she'll change. If she doesn't want to change then **** it. At least I can say that I gave her a shot and then I'll move on.


The financial and educational part doesn't seem like a huge amount to ask, but you need to make sure that sexually that is even something that is fair to ask (go to the Dr, with her and make sure that everything is healthy) and forcing someone to do something against her will is not acceptable either.

You also need to have a list of things that you are willing to do for her as well. A marriage is a 2 way street. 

Lots here would envy you for the situation you currently have, as Allen has said. Don't think that you are the only one that is having these issues, I would love to have a wife half as responsive as yours. I know that it is my cross to bear, but I am not contemplating cheating nor would I condone it in any form, and I am older than you and have probably been dealing with it for longer, so don't think your case is unique.


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Ozzzy, there was more I had to say in my response yesterday but was heals tired, so here is the rest of what jumped out at me...

You said you have nothing in common, and complained that she goes along with your preferences.

To me, it sounds like she can't really please you. She lets you pick a restaurant... maybe she's being loving and sacrificing her own preference to please you. But if she likes different movies to you, then that's her not having things in common? Seems like a double bind to me.

I don't know who invented the "you have to hve stuff on common" rule, but it's bollocks. I hate my husband's movie choices! I'm a night person and he's not. I like seafood, he doesn't. He doesn't understand why i'm friends with certain people. We are both Christian but have distinct spiritual differences. I'm politically opinionated, he doesn't even vote. I can make a list of those things and call our relationship "incompatible" if I want a get out of jail free card. (That's another term I think is bollocks.) We have some things in common, and also some differences and the key is acceptance and compromise.

You have alot to say about your wife being lazy, dumb/not smart, poor English, money moocher, no longer a BJ vending machine. Some of those things may be partially true. But I don't see much appreciation coming from you. Okay, so she's hot and keeps a clean house. That's a start. Does she give you any sex at all, even though you withhold it from her like a weapon? YES! So she no longer does pornastics in bed. Okay, so things aren't quite the same, but sex is about more than performance and various acts. 
Something you said that I thought was alarming was that even if you do have a sex addiction, then your wife should be the one fulfilling it. The problem with that is, if you are an addict, it is impossible for another person to fulfill you, insofar as your addiction goes. Not even a hot smart doctor who makes passes at a married man.

I am glad you posted here and I think it's a great first step, but you MUST get help, not only for your marriage but yourself. Please talk to a friend and be as honest as you have been with us. Go to a SLAA meeting with an open mind.

Lastly, and i'm sorry if this comes across judgmental, but I am reading all about you, all about what you feel entitled to, about what's not good enough about your wife, about your self justifications to go ahead and cheat, about his you're embarrassed for your wife's lack if English skills. I haven't seen any concern for how cheating would devastate your wife, or about pleasing her sexually, about anything relating to your children, about appreciation for your wife and family. I could bw wrong but to me it dounds luke the narcissism of an addict. Do you can get your d*ck wet with this doctor chick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Ozzzy, there was more I had to say in my response yesterday but was heals tired, so here is the rest of what jumped out at me...

You said you have nothing in common, and complained that she goes along with your preferences.

To me, it sounds like she can't really please you. She lets you pick a restaurant... maybe she's being loving and sacrificing her own preference to please you. But if she likes different movies to you, then that's her not having things in common? Seems like a double bind to me.

I don't know who invented the "you have to hve stuff on common" rule, but it's bollocks. I hate my husband's movie choices! I'm a night person and he's not. I like seafood, he doesn't. He doesn't understand why i'm friends with certain people. We are both Christian but have distinct spiritual differences. I'm politically opinionated, he doesn't even vote. I can make a list of those things and call our relationship "incompatible" if I want a get out of jail free card. (That's another term I think is bollocks.) We have some things in common, and also some differences and the key is acceptance and compromise.

You have alot to say about your wife being lazy, dumb/not smart, poor English, money moocher, no longer a BJ vending machine. Some of those things may be partially true. But I don't see much appreciation coming from you. Okay, so she's hot and keeps a clean house. That's a start. Does she give you any sex at all, even though you withhold it from her like a weapon? YES! So she no longer does pornastics in bed. Okay, so things aren't quite the same, but sex is about more than performance and various acts. 
Something you said that I thought was alarming was that even if you do have a sex addiction, then your wife should be the one fulfilling it. The problem with that is, if you are an addict, it is impossible for another person to fulfill you, insofar as your addiction goes. Not even a hot smart doctor who makes passes at a married man.

I am glad you posted here and I think it's a great first step, but you MUST get help, not only for your marriage but yourself. Please talk to a friend and be as honest as you have been with us. Go to a SLAA meeting with an open mind.

Lastly, and i'm sorry if this comes across judgmental, but I am reading all about you, all about what you feel entitled to, about what's not good enough about your wife, about your self justifications to go ahead and cheat, about his you're embarrassed for your wife's lack if English skills. I haven't seen any concern for how cheating would devastate your wife, or about pleasing her sexually, about anything relating to your children, about appreciation for your wife and family. I could be wrong but to me it sounds like the narcissism of an addict. Do you can get your d*ck wet with this doctor chick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

YOU don't have a sh*tty wife, she has a sh*tty husband wanting to bone other women and justifying that bullsh*t in his head any way he possibly can. 

I said it before and I will say it again, you are in NO position to give your wife ultimatums. I hope she tells you to shove it up your hypocritical @ss.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

QuietSoul said:


> Ozzzy, there was more I had to say in my response yesterday but was heals tired, so here is the rest of what jumped out at me...
> 
> You said you have nothing in common, and complained that she goes along with your preferences.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> And you know what? That's really where I'm leaning right now. She's seems genuinely happy now but that doesn't matter to me anymore since I haven't been happy for a long time. I'm going to schedule marriage counseling and give her an ultimatum. She needs to be more open sexually towards what I want to do, work harder on getting her education, and start helping out more financially.
> 
> That list of 3 things doesn't sound like too much to ask. I've been asking for years and I keep being kicked to the curb. If she enjoys living in this big house and driving her BMW then she'll change. If she doesn't want to change then **** it. At least I can say that I gave her a shot and then I'll move on.


There is nothing wrong with this plan - as long as you are serious about giving your marriage a real shot. If these 3 things are deal breakers to you than give the ultimatum. In return are you willing to also work on some of the issues she may feel you have? Are you willing to commit to making real efforts with the counselor in not only getting what you want - but also in improving your relationship so you both are happy and satisfied in the marriage? 

What about the OW - you don't say what your plan is about her? Does this plan include getting the OW completely out of the picture and not keep her dangling just in case? If not - then you aren't really giving the marriage a real shot are you?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> What I logically can't get my head around is how would cheating (the act of sex) make things worse. What if I didn't cheat and went to counseling. My wife tries to work on some of her issues but still doesn't do the things I want sexually. From man to man, how would you feel if your wife told you that there would be no more blow jobs? Maybe if I was 90 but come on man, at my age, that's probably one of the worse things that a man can be told. This isn't the only sex act that I'm unhappy about but I'm using that one as an example.
> 
> The way I see it, if another woman can satisfy me sexually, then I wouldn't give a flying fvck if my wife didn't want to do what I liked in the bedroom. I would be content with getting it from somewhere else. I mean, what does she expect if sex is always on her terms? Why does everyone else get to have a fulfilling sex life except for me.
> 
> I've built a life for my family that will be destroyed if/when I leave. For their benefit, it's better that I stay. I get that. Does that mean I should live the rest of my life being unhappy?


You don't seem concerned about not seeing your boys. You did mention in your first post that their mother may take them back to her country and that your finances will improve. 

The benifits of D may not all accrue to you. Your wife and kids may not disappear and give up claims on your financial support. 

There is an even bigger problem. You married your wife impulsively without due consideration of her compatibility. You were blinded by sex. 

The same impulsivity may be driving you to leave your kids without a second thought. You are older now but still making the same mistakes.

Consider that you are willing to pay a high price for getting pleasure that depends on someone other than yourself. 

You'll find it difficult to resist being manipulated to satisfy your hunger. And being frustrated when your fix is not endless.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It's been a while since we've seen ozzzy.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

mary35 said:


> There is nothing wrong with this plan - as long as you are serious about giving your marriage a real shot. If these 3 things are deal breakers to you than give the ultimatum. In return are you willing to also work on some of the issues she may feel you have? Are you willing to commit to making real efforts with the counselor in not only getting what you want - but also in improving your relationship so you both are happy and satisfied in the marriage?
> 
> What about the OW - you don't say what your plan is about her? Does this plan include getting the OW completely out of the picture and not keep her dangling just in case? If not - then you aren't really giving the marriage a real shot are you?


If she has a list of things that she wants me to change in the marriage, then of course I will do them. I do have a strong feeling that she is happy just how things are right now but I could be wrong. I sat her down earlier and although I didn't talk about any one specific issue, I did tell her that I will be making an appointment so we an see a counselor. The response I got was pretty much a deer in the headlights look. I did get a remark about how counseling would help us if it didn't help in the past. I think maybe she tries to put on an act since her mother is around. I just don't know any other way to decipher it. Her mother probably thinks that everything is rosy between us and I don't think my wife wants her to think otherwise.

As for the other woman, I have made no plans to sleep with her. We are going out to lunch next week but that's all it is, just lunch. This is just an opportunity for me to get out the house and clear my head for a change. I don't plan on cheating so it's not going to happen. Now if my wife doesn't respond to counseling or anything else that I set for her, then I think divorce is my only option.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Omg you are going to hang out with the woman you're having an emotional affair with and you have the nerve to talk about your wife the way you do??????? What f'cking planet do you come from?!


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You won't clear your head around the OW, quite the opposite. And no, you aren't special, you aren't any different than any other person in an EA, you don't have special powers to resist temptation that others lack. Lunch is a bad idea. Period.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

lisab0105 said:


> Omg you are going to hang out with the woman you're having an emotional affair with and you have the nerve to talk about your wife the way you do??????? What f'cking planet do you come from?!


We're just going out and nothing else. We're both adults and I can control myself. Me going out with her has nothing to do with the problems with my wife.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> We're just going out and nothing else. We're both adults and I can control myself. Me going out with her has nothing to do with the problems with my wife.


You're kind of odd, you posted here, which gives the impression that deep down you must have some sort of clue, but then you post this, and it seems like you don't.

I'll tell you flat out, keep playing this game, and you will get burned, and badly (you have no idea). You will regret it, and you will have no one to blame but yourself. 

What good will come of this lunch? At what cost? Again I'm telling you, you haven't got a ****ing clue how much you are going to pay, for so little.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You are kidding yourself, and while you might fool yourself, you don't fool us. You're already out on the slippery slope. You are in danger of losing your 'control' to the chemicals in your brain. Have a look at this : m.youtube.com/watch?v=x-ewvCNguug
You are not immune, but you do have the chance to opt out, to use your rationality now.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> If she has a list of things that she wants me to change in the marriage, then of course I will do them. I do have a strong feeling that she is happy just how things are right now but I could be wrong. I sat her down earlier and although I didn't talk about any one specific issue, I did tell her that I will be making an appointment so we an see a counselor. The response I got was pretty much a deer in the headlights look. I did get a remark about how counseling would help us if it didn't help in the past. I think maybe she tries to put on an act since her mother is around. I just don't know any other way to decipher it. Her mother probably thinks that everything is rosy between us and I don't think my wife wants her to think otherwise.
> 
> As for the other woman, I have made no plans to sleep with her. We are going out to lunch next week but that's all it is, just lunch. This is just an opportunity for me to get out the house and clear my head for a change. I don't plan on cheating so it's not going to happen. Now if my wife doesn't respond to counseling or anything else that I set for her, then I think divorce is my only option.


I see! I understand - fully understand now! You are planning on keeping her around until the divorce. Counseling is simply a ruse - the last show for everyone! You did all you could! It just didn't work out. Your wife could not do what she needed to do...would not please you in bed as you deserve... yada yada.

Enjoy your lunch! And Happy Divorce!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> If she has a list of things that she wants me to change in the marriage, then of course I will do them. I do have a strong feeling that she is happy just how things are right now but I could be wrong. I sat her down earlier and although I didn't talk about any one specific issue, I did tell her that I will be making an appointment so we an see a counselor. The response I got was pretty much a deer in the headlights look. I did get a remark about how counseling would help us if it didn't help in the past. I think maybe she tries to put on an act since her mother is around. I just don't know any other way to decipher it. Her mother probably thinks that everything is rosy between us and I don't think my wife wants her to think otherwise.


AT this point I think your wife could turn into exactly what you say you want her to be and you'd still find fault with her. That's where your head is at. 

This is how cheating happens. The more you interact with the OW the more you will look down on your wife and find fault with her. After all it helps you justify your affair. And yes you are already in an affair.


ozzzy said:


> As for the other woman, I have made no plans to sleep with her. We are going out to lunch next week but that's all it is, just lunch. This is just an opportunity for me to get out the house and clear my head for a change. I don't plan on cheating so it's not going to happen.


Like I said, you are already in an affair. It's what's called an emotional affair at this point. Emotional affairs are more damaging to a marriage then just sex. Why? Because they make you, the cheater, turn away from your spouse and destroy your marriage.


ozzzy said:


> Now if my wife doesn't respond to counseling or anything else that I set for her, then I think divorce is my only option.


When you see the counselor, make sure you tell your wife that you are having an affair with a younger woman because you think your wife is beneath you. she needs to know that truth.

This ultimatum you plan to give her is nothing more than an excuse to find a way to justify your affair. 

The reason for going to a counselor is not to give ultimatums. It's to explore ways for BOTH of you to work together to identify each other needs and to work on your marriage.

I really feel badly for your wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> We're just going out and nothing else. We're both adults and I can control myself. Me going out with her has nothing to do with the problems with my wife.


Married men do not date other women. You are in an affair already.

And yes, this low life woman has everything to do with what you see as problems with your wife. When a person is in an affair, it's like they are looking at the world through distorted glasses. 

You are hell bent on destroying your marriage. Nothing we say will change your mind. 

Wasting my time here.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Married men do not date other women. You are in an affair already.
> 
> And yes, this low life woman has everything to do with what you see as problems with your wife. When a person is in an affair, it's like they are looking at the world through distorted glasses.
> 
> ...


We are not having an affair. We are not kissing nor talking about anything sexual. We are just 2 adults engaging in conversation. That's it. Whether or not she is in the picture, I'll still have the same view of my wife. If we go to counseling and it is successful, then I have absolutely no reason to leave her.

Please believe me when I say that I want to stay. If not for anything else, it's for my kids sake. I want to see them grow up in a dual parent home. I also do love my wife and I want us both to be happy. If my feelings continued to be neglected and she doesn't give in to my list (which isn't bad btw), then the marriage is over.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Why do you want to play with fire by going out on a date with a woman you are emotionally involved with who isn't your wife?


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

mary35 said:


> I see! I understand - fully understand now! You are planning on keeping her around until the divorce. Counseling is simply a ruse - the last show for everyone! You did all you could! It just didn't work out. Your wife could not do what she needed to do...would not please you in bed as you deserve... yada yada.
> 
> Enjoy your lunch! And Happy Divorce!



I'm not keeping her around until the divorce. If my wife does what she needs to do, there will be no divorce. So far, all I've been getting is blame shifting and blank stares. This other woman has nothing to do with the way my wife is treating me. Even though this other woman told me that she is into me, that doesn't mean that I should just cut her off and kick her out of my life. What if she never told me that? Then it would be OK to go out together right?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: I haven't cheated yet but I need help with what I should do with my marriage.*



ozzzy said:


> I'm not keeping her around until the divorce. If my wife does what she needs to do, there will be no divorce. So far, all I've been getting is blame shifting and blank stares. This other woman has nothing to do with the way my wife is treating me. Even though this other woman told me that she is into me, that doesn't mean that I should just cut her off and kick her out of my life. What if she never told me that? Then it would be OK to go out together right?


No. Going out with the opposite sex one on one is just asking for trouble, especially in an unhappy marriage. And even more when one is attracted to the other.

Does your wife know you are going out with this woman?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> I'm not keeping her around until the divorce. If my wife does what she needs to do, there will be no divorce. So far, all I've been getting is blame shifting and blank stares. This other woman has nothing to do with the way my wife is treating me. Even though this other woman told me that she is into me, that doesn't mean that I should just cut her off and kick her out of my life. What if she never told me that? Then it would be OK to go out together right?


No it's not ok for a married man to go out with a woman other than his wife. This is a date.

You are in the early stages of an affair. Some day when you look back on this, when you are kicking yourself in the behind for the trouble you brought into your life with this OW, you will see what I'm saying. 

Some people can be told that the stove is hot and they don't touch it. Others have to touch it to believe it... and they get burned.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

vi_bride04 said:


> No. Going out with the opposite sex one on one is just asking for trouble, especially in an unhappy marriage. And even more when one is attracted to the other.
> 
> Does your wife know you are going out with this woman?


No she doesn't know. She goes out with her friends and I don't question her motives or ask 1000 questions. It really isn't a big deal and I hate I mentioned it. Trust me though, I don't plan on sleeping with her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> No she doesn't know. She goes out with her friends and I don't question her motives or ask 1000 questions. It really isn't a big deal and I hate I mentioned it. Trust me though, I don't plan on sleeping with her.


When you say that your wife goes out with her friends, is she dating any other men?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

You may have a small chance of saving your marriage



*If you get a good counselor and you BOTH do what the counselor advises you may have a chance at salvaging your marriage.*


If your wife is just making excuses about the sex that you talked about then I hope she realizes that sex is extremely important especially to a person their 20s and 30s and beyond. If she really is treating you badly she needs to change that or she will be divorced according to you.

If you are making unreasonable demands and wanting sex from her even if it hurts her then you are just a selfish punk


Even though sex is very imortant in your situation you have a ton of others things that need a lot of change. First you resent your wife, second you feel that she tricked (Hoax) you into getting married, and third you feel that she is not doing her share in the marriage and she has very little in common with you.


You have so many issues and maybe she does too but you definitely need a good counselor and you BOTH NEED TO CHANGE those things that are destroying your relationship


This is what will happen if you both do not make enough changes to get your marriage back into much better state:


You will divorce her and go after a woman that will satisfy your sexual desires and other things that you see lacking in your wife.

You will find out that unless you change for the better the new woman will eventually turn away from you. You need to learn that marriage is almost never a 50/50 deal and find out exactly what you can live within yourself as well as your wife.

You will have to pay child support and you will lose at least 50% of the time you now have with your children.

Your children will suffer emotionally and maybe facially for years to come. Insecurity is very damaging to children and there will be other damage also.






You laid out the way you see things pretty well and you probably are being honest about your views. It is just that your views are the views of a 29 year old that does not have a clear grasp of what life is. If you are smart you will find people that have lived a long time and been successful in life and then do what they did. 

Your wife maybe needs to change some things about her but do you think that we are going to believe that 80-90% of your marriage problems are your wife?



Find out from a third party, that is a professional with success in marriage, as to what you and your wife need to do to save the marriage. *If you both make enough changes you will save the marriage; if you do not then you will be after another woman before the end of this year. If you do not make the changes you need to make you will be in the same shape in your next marriage or relationship.*


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

As they say in 12 steps, if you sit in the barber's chair long enough, you'll get a haircut. You are definotely in some denial my friend. I can't emphasise how important it is that you talk to someone face to face who is a real person in your world before you take a single step further

Just for a woman's perspective, I can tel you that I would be utterly devastated and so hurt if my husband had lunch with a woman he had fantasised about. Physical contact or not, that is cheating
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

You think having lunch with a female who you sexually fantasise about and desire, who has made passes st you, is okay? If it's so innocent and platonic, then why don't you bring your wife along so they can be pals? Let alone tell her? See? Not that innocent is it?
If a male in my world made passes at me, or if I found myself in some way attracted to him, I would definitely keep my distance. If any man made passes at me, my husband would know about it, and I certainly would cut that man out of my life

You are not thinking soberly, and you are I no mental or emotional state to be making a sober judgment about your marriage like this. I have not seen you mention even once about how you think this would impact your wife or family. it's all about you wanting to put your **** in a hot smart doctor as opposed to your hot "dumb" wife. If it was up to me, I wouldn't be going for the home wrecker. 

You may not intend to do anything sexual when you meet up for lunch, but the truth is, you don't know what you will do. You are powerless, because you think you are in control.and can handle playing with fire, when the very fact you are taking this step is evidence to your delusion. 

Even if nothing happens, ot will make it harder and more painful for you to end this thing before it destroys your family and causes unimaginable pain. 

You need to tell someone so they can help you before it's too late
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

mary35 said:


> There is nothing wrong with this plan - as long as you are serious about giving your marriage a real shot. If these 3 things are deal breakers to you than give the ultimatum. In return are you willing to also work on some of the issues she may feel you have? Are you willing to commit to making real efforts with the counselor in not only getting what you want - but also in improving your relationship so you both are happy and satisfied in the marriage?
> 
> What about the OW - you don't say what your plan is about her? Does this plan include getting the OW completely out of the picture and not keep her dangling just in case? If not - then you aren't really giving the marriage a real shot are you?


:iagree:
But I would also suggest about coming clean about your EA to her as well, your wife deserves to know and decide for herself if she wants to do. Plus if counseling will be a lot more effective because it will probably help you stop deflecting your actions and doing the typical cheaters rationalization hamster thing you've being doing on this thread.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

It doesn't work like that ozzzy. Your wife is not the source of your problems. It's not her, it's you. That's why the advice you get is focused on you. And that's good, because you can change your own behaviour and attitudes, if you want to. If you figure that out. You can dish out any ultimatum you want, but you probably won't succeed in changing your wife. Not in the way you intend to. You aren't honest enough. You aren't transparent enough. You do not communicate well enough. 

Why? Because you are scared. You are ashamed. You don't accept or value yourself enough to present your true self to her. But you do expect her to somehow know exactly what you want, and to be happy to give it to you despite your refusal to be a good partner yourself. The other woman isn't paying enough attention to get that you aren't worthy yet. There could be any number of reasons for that, but they don't matter. She is irrelevant, it's about you, not her.

You have actively participated in creating your marriage, but you seem to think it can only change if your wife changes. That in fact, she is the one who must change, in order for it to survive. Well, you're wrong. Every single person who has taken the time to respond has said you are wrong. There is a good reason for that. Experience is an amazing teacher. We are trying to share the benefit of extremely painful lessons, while sparing you the first person experience of them.

You posted here for a reason. You are on a dangerous path, and you must know it, but you don't realize how far down the path you already are. 

The answers and advice you are getting are sound. We aren't trying to trick you. We are trying to help you help yourself. We are trying to help you avoid more pain. To help you reach for a better life, a better marriage, but you need to do it. You need to accept reality and act accordingly. None of us can do that for you.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> We're just going out and nothing else. We're both adults and I can control myself. Me going out with her has nothing to do with the problems with my wife.


So you're going out on a date? Aren't you married?


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I'm not keeping her around until the divorce. If my wife does what she needs to do, there will be no divorce. So far, all I've been getting is blame shifting and blank stares. This other woman has nothing to do with the way my wife is treating me. Even though this other woman told me that she is into me, that doesn't mean that I should just cut her off and kick her out of my life. What if she never told me that? Then it would be OK to go out together right?


Wife to husband:
"You have a special friend dear."
"Yes". 

"It must be really nice for you."
"Oh yes, she's just great. Good-looking, smart and she's a student doctor."

"Wow! But honey, you're just a salesman/IT guy/carpenter. She must really like you."
"She does. Actually, she told me she likes me a lot. I'm taking her to lunch tomorrow, that cosy little French restaurant downtown. Really looking forward to it."

"Oh yes. I really like that one. Hope she likes it. I'm going to take the boys to the playground, you know the one they really like, with the tree-house. Anyway I better go to sleep. It's getting late. Goodnight honey." 
"Goodnight."

Counselling :rofl:

A list of demands? :rofl:

Doggy style or else, at the top of the long list? :rofl:

The cutsie Lady-Doc-to-be better do doggie, or else. . . Doc-to-be or not, she's just a skank like every other skank who chases married men.

OP, hope your two little boys have fun at the playground with their Mom, your wife while you do lunch with your "special" secret friend. 

I'm not even going to read this thread any more. 
It's making me sick.

I'm hoping it's a tr*ll thread. I'm really hoping. . .


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> We are not having an affair. We are not kissing nor talking about anything sexual. We are just 2 adults engaging in conversation. That's it. Whether or not she is in the picture, I'll still have the same view of my wife. If we go to counseling and it is successful, then I have absolutely no reason to leave her.
> 
> Please believe me when I say that I want to stay. If not for anything else, it's for my kids sake. I want to see them grow up in a dual parent home. I also do love my wife and I want us both to be happy. If my feelings continued to be neglected and she doesn't give in to my list (which isn't bad btw), then the marriage is over.


"For your kids sake", don't go on dates with other women. Counseling will have zero chance of success as you clearly see every fault your wife has ( and yes she has them) while your mind presents Dr. Hot Stuff as this perfect women. You are being disingenuous to your wife, man. Forget counseling. Either leave your wife or leave OW alone and try to work out your problems.

It's just lunch. Yeah right. What's for dessert?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

@ozzzy

Focus on improving your marriage and stop dating OW. Your wife have been faithful to you and you need to cherish her fidelity and loyalty at minimum. Nobody is perfect.

Ask those who have faced the problem of infidelity, it can destroy lives.

Read these books, if you haven't already:-

His Needs, Her Needs
Married Man Sex Life Primer
Not Just Friends

These books will improve your understanding about relationships, potential risks and your own inner faults.

Marriage is a like a journey in which ups and downs are expected. You are currently experiencing some chemical changes from external validation that you are getting from OW and not thinking rationally.

In addition, it is not wise to have ridiculous sex expectations from your wife. She isn't a porn star or trained in that fashion to please you like such women. Please be realistic with your expectations.

Furthermore, you may have some imperfections too that your wife tolerates but doesn't gives you such impression out of respect. Do not try to think that you are perfect and your wife is not. Work on your marriage.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Really need to read "Not Just Friends".


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

@ozzzy

Think about positive attributes of your wife such as her faithfulness, intimacy, meeting your expectations, giving birth to your children, parenting qualities and vice versa. You should not take these qualities for granted.

Infidelity can destroy lives, ask those who have experienced it. You are experiencing chemical changes (within you) from external validation that you are getting from OW but you need to overcome this feeling with your sense of self-worth and esteem.

Nobody is perfect in life (including you). Think of this in this way that your wife is also coping with your imperfections because she loves you and overlooks your imperfections. So don't think that she is not perfect but you are.

Read the books that I have recommended in my previous response. These books will improve your understanding of relationships, women, destructiveness of infidelity and how can you improve yourself and relation/marriage with your woman.

Furthermore, it is not wise to have unrealistic intimacy related expectations from your spouse. If you watch (you know) then you should realized that your wife is not one of them and isn't expected to please you in equal fashion. If she is being intimate with you then you should respect this relationship and try to motivate her to do better but this motivation will not come from words. You will need to improve yourself first. Read the books that I have mentioned.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> No she doesn't know. She goes out with her friends and I don't question her motives or ask 1000 questions. It really isn't a big deal and I hate I mentioned it. Trust me though, I don't plan on sleeping with her.


I was sort of on your side until this. The only reason you are going out with this woman is because you know there is a chance you can get in her pants at some point.

Many of us are men here. We know how it works.

If you think it's harmless, tell your wife about the lunch and who it is with.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: I haven't cheated yet but I need help with what I should do with my marriage.*



Gabriel said:


> If you think it's harmless, tell your wife about the lunch and who it is with.


Yup. Tell your wife. Why hide it? Just an innocent lunch, right ??


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You like each other, you feel good when you’re together, you like talking to him and exchanging intimate, funny or even sexy e-mails. He gets you. You joke, you flirt, you dress nicer when you meet him for lunch or drinks, you write long e-mails or tap out furtive text messages. The problem? He’s not your husband, and your husband doesn’t know about this guy—whether he’s your ex-boyfriend from college, your Facebook friend or your coworker. Is this the start of a beautiful (and innocent) friendship, or the beginning of the end of your marriage? And if there’s no sex, can you really call it infidelity? Yes—emotional infidelity. Here are some answers to common questions about nonsexual affairs.

What is the definition of emotional infidelity? 
It’s an emotional connection with someone of the opposite sex that you keep a secret from your spouse, says Peggy Vaughan, author of The Monogamy Myth: A Personal Handbook for Recovering from Affairs. Basically, emotional affairs occur when one partner is channeling physical or emotional energy, time and attention into someone other than the person they are in a committed relationship with to the point that their partner feels neglected.

What makes it such a big deal, if there’s no sex? 
The marriage-damaging factor of affairs, it turns out, is far less about sex than it is about the total package of deception. “Most people, I’ve found, can recover from sexual infidelity more readily than from the fact that they were lied to,” says Vaughan. Finding out your partner’s been emotionally canoodling with someone else makes you think, “What can I believe about our life together? The big red flag is the secrecy. Emotional cheating is about breaking trust with your spouse, not having sex with someone else,” she adds.

How can I tell if the “friendship” I have is veering into emotional-affair territory?
Ask yourself: Am I doing things or talking about things with this person that I don’t do or talk about with my spouse? Am I going to complicated lengths to arrange time with this person? Am I either downplaying the relationship to friends or family members, or keeping it a secret altogether?

Is it more common these days? 
Oh yes. Not only do we have the option to connect with someone at work, online “affairs” are rife, says Jessica LeRoy, founder and clinical director of the Center for the Psychology of Women. “Now, if you’re thinking about your old boyfriend, you can probably find him on Facebook.” Plus, online communication makes connection both easier and more intense, more quickly.

Why do people in emotional affairs deny they’re doing anything wrong?
Quite simply? Because there’s no sex. Many people have a hard time seeing what’s so wrong about this type of friendship. Culturally, we tend to believe that cheating is having sex with someone other than your spouse, period. But Vaughan says, “emotional affairs tend to escalate in increments,” from e-mails to lunch to drinks. Even as it gets more serious, it’s still easy to think of it as innocent because it’s “only” lunch. And before you know it, you’ve got a stack of secrets you’re keeping, and an emotional entanglement with someone else.

Does it mean the end of your marriage? 
No, but it can be devastating if your spouse finds out, says Vaughan. “The person may suddenly feel as though she doesn’t know her partner.” If you’ve made a strong emotional connection with someone else, with or without sex, it can be very painful for your spouse. Also, “emotional affairs can lead to physical infidelity,” which only makes the deception worse and the disentanglement harder.

What should you do? 
Back way off, says LeRoy. “Don’t respond to calls and e-mails as often while you disengage from this person.” Should you fess up? Probably not. The bigger deal you make of it, the harder it’ll be on your spouse. But you do have to nip the relationship in the bud. If you think you can shift the extramarital relationship back to something more innocent, you’re probably wrong, says Vaughan. This is a time when cold turkey is best, she recommends.
What Is Emotional Cheating - Emotional Infidelity Definition - Woman's Day


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Maybe we should copy paste the thread am I headed for an affair Kendall/ willson/ Carrie/ Walt...


Yes, it's a darn shame that Carrie, Walter, Kendall and Wilson are all permanently banned from this site.

OP could learn a thing or two from their "experiences"...

:lol:


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

OP,

Here's a sure-fire way to determine if you're having an emotional affair or not. Ask yourself these questions:

1. How would you feel if your wife was standing right next to you while you were telling the Doctor Lady that you had the hots for her, and she for you? Would you feel comfortable in your own skin? I'm willing to bet the answer is 'no'.

2. How would you feel if another MAN was telling your wife that he had the hots for HER and she for HIM...AND, that they were going out to lunch together? Again, I'm willing to bet that you would be less than 'thrilled'.


Vega


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Ozzzy...

This really is quite simple:

1. Cancel the lunch date with the OW

2. Get yourselves in to see a marriage counselor (and some individual counseling for you would be good too). During counseling, have an open discussion with your wife -- tell her EVERYTHING, including your feelings for OW, your dissatisfaction with your sex life, your concerns about finances, her education, English, etc. I'm sure she will have a long list for you as well.

3. Identify your needs and your wife's needs in this marriage

4. Decide whether or not both of your needs can be met

5. If your marriage is worth saving, you and your wife will make it happen. If not, it wasn't meant to be. File for divorce.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Why don't you take your wife on a lunch date instead??


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read this book together and do the work from it: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage by Willard F. Jr. Harley | 9780800719388 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Yes, it's a darn shame that Carrie, Walter, Kendall and Wilson are all permanently banned from this site.
> 
> OP could learn a thing or two from their "experiences"...
> 
> :lol:


kendall banned too?
i must have been absent that day.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

cool12 said:


> kendall banned too?
> i must have been absent that day.


Oh yeah...!!! Kendall got shipped out right along with the rest of them...

:lol:


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Ozzzy , if you're still with us, would like to know what measure you are going to take in the next 24 hours to get some help and accountability. You have heaps of people here reaching out to you, recommending what helped them, sharing books and their experiences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Guys,

It's really hard for me to grasp how much of it is a big deal that we are just going out to lunch. However, I do have to acknowledge that many here have been down this road that I'm looking down. Out of respect for my marriage (and my wife), I'll just cancel the meet for now. I really didn't see it as a big deal since I know that nothing was going to happen. I really hope it's worth it because I'm at the end of my rope with my wife. I almost wish that she could see me out with the other lady just so she could physically see how far gone our marriage is. No matter what I say/do, she just doesn't see it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Ok, good Ozzy. You're canceling the date. But did you even read my post? You're really making this way more difficult than it needs to be. Quit playing head games with your wife, quit the lack of proper communication, and DO THIS: (sorry for the double post folks)



> Ozzzy...
> 
> This really is quite simple:
> 
> ...


If you follow that advice, you'll have your answer in no time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> Guys,
> 
> It's really hard for me to grasp how much of it is a big deal that we are just going out to lunch. However, I do have to acknowledge that many here have been down this road that I'm looking down. Out of respect for my marriage (and my wife), I'll just cancel the meet for now. I really didn't see it as a big deal since I know that nothing was going to happen. I really hope it's worth it because I'm at the end of my rope with my wife. I almost wish that she could see me out with the other lady just so she could physically see how far gone our marriage is. No matter what I say/do, she just doesn't see it.


Well, that's an easy fix: "Wife, I had made plans to have lunch with ABC. I'm unhappy being married to you because you aren't meeting my needs. I know that if I went to that lunch with ABC, she would have met my needs and it probably would have developed into an affair. I'm telling you so that you have fair warning that I'm dangerously close to leaving this marriage. If I don't see changes, I guess I'll assume you are too, and I'll make plans to see a lawyer."


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Oozy all you can do is give your all for a finite period of time. Give your marriage your full attention. Have goals that you would like to hit at various time points and at the end review where you are. 

Go to your wife with the plan, don't ask her if she wants to do it, request that she take this seriously and agree on the goals. 

Then start. Don't assume the worse if she seem unengaged at first. She will get it, if she wants, once you get the process of MC and changes in place. She will realize how close she is to losing her family.

I think you should be honest with her about this girl. You are being transparent about where you are and she gets a chance to R or not. You both get a better idea of where you stand.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Ozzie
Your only hope and your wife’s only hope is that you get a good counselor IMMEDIATELY and you BOTH change for the better.


If you BOTH do not do that your marriage is doomed!

The children will suffer!*


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

turnera said:


> Well, that's an easy fix: "Wife, I had made plans to have lunch with ABC. I'm unhappy being married to you because you aren't meeting my needs. I know that if I went to that lunch with ABC, she would have met my needs and it probably would have developed into an affair. I'm telling you so that you have fair warning that I'm dangerously close to leaving this marriage. If I don't see changes, I guess I'll assume you are too, and I'll make plans to see a lawyer."





Mr Blunt said:


> *Ozzie
> Your only hope and your wife’s only hope is that you get a good counselor IMMEDIATELY and you BOTH change for the better.
> 
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

ozzy I wanted to take a different approach in this post.

I give you credit for staying here. many people have been swinging 2x4's trying to get you to see the light.

that said, I agree with the sentiment here that having an affair is a horrible idea. it will only make matters worse and much harder to deal with. but I do agree with you that you do have reasonable rights and expectations that aren't being met by your wife. But that doesn't give you license to go have an affair. think of it this way, two wrongs don't make a right.....if someone robs your home, you don't get a free pass to go rob someone else because you were wronged. you took vows, and even if your wife in her own way isn't upholding yours, don't stoop to her level and break yours.

I do view a spouse that has checked out, in their own world, being selfish, neglecting the spouse needs as basically breaking their vows. while this isn't as caustic as infidelity and can be recovered from, an affair isn't the answer.

what you need to do is work at repairing or ending your relationship. stop playing games. its getting you knowwhere except closer and closer to having an affair. and don't kid yourself, you ARE in an emotional affair right now with this new intriguing woman. the problem is, it just fogs your interactions with your wife and how you perceive her and many things, so end it immediately.

once you have ended your EA, then you can begin to make a clear decision if your marriage is salvageable. you can do all the right things, you can try and make changes to your life and give your wife more of what she needs from you. but this also means she has to be open to meeting your reasonable needs as well. if this cant be done, than divorce and move on. but at least you can hold your head high and know you did things the right way and save yourself and your spouse considerably more pain than what an affair will do to both of you.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> Guys,
> 
> It's really hard for me to grasp how much of it is a big deal that we are just going out to lunch. However, I do have to acknowledge that many here have been down this road that I'm looking down. Out of respect for my marriage (and my wife), I'll just cancel the meet for now. I really didn't see it as a big deal since I know that nothing was going to happen. I really hope it's worth it because I'm at the end of my rope with my wife. I almost wish that she could see me out with the other lady just so she could physically see how far gone our marriage is. No matter what I say/do, she just doesn't see it.


tell her just exactly that. tell her you are at the end of th rope and considering leaving her. maybe even do so. its called separation and its used to bring clarity and re-evaluation of the relationship. this isn't an excuse to go party and have affairs. you both get a taste of life without the other and the burdens associated with it. she needs to know you are not willing to go on like this. sometimes people think they can get away with poor behavior because they think the other spouse wont do anything about it. just know that you have to be willing to address concerns she has with you and you ARE art of the problem.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My brother's wife just told him she's leaving him. He's been taking her for granted, expecting her to work full time yet do all the housework, take care of SIX cats (and litter boxes), feed him, dress him, and the yardwork. She was expected to agree with his choices of vacations and activities, his plans for their lives, and retire when he wanted her to. He's incredibly negative and becoming unbelievably close-minded, conservative, and bigoted. She couldn't take it any more. And yet, when she told him she was leaving, and listed all these things, he went and vacuumed the living room and cleaned a toilet. He thought it would be good enough to get her to stay. 

Of course it isn't.

But, boy, has it woken him up. Suddenly, he is all about HER, after years of no affection. Suddenly, she's all he wants, NOW he wants to go to therapy, now he cares about what she thinks.

I'm telling you this to show you that things are complicated, yes, but there's no getting around psychology. Once you remove yourself from your marriage's settled ways, once you make it clear you're (thinking of) leaving, one of two things will happen: If she loves you, she'll wake up and say wait, don't go, what can I do. If she's really just been along for the ride and stayed out of convenience, she won't. She'll either say ok, let's split up, or she'll pretend to care but not really change. 

Either way, you'll have your answer. But choosing a passive aggressive way to blow up your marriage (meeting another woman) will only result in hard feelings and BAD feelings all around. Take the high road. Talk to your wife.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ozzzy, you keep saying your at the end of your rope, ready to go betray your wife, divorce, etc. 

and your wife wont go to counseling? 

just show her this thread. worst case scenario, she divorces you. but, thats not exactly the worst case scenario, since your at the end of your rope and already considering divorce, right?

best case scenario is that she starts talking, agrees to counseling, and your marriage improves. 

or are you too ashamed to do it?


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi Ozzzy, glad to hear you cancelled lunch with the other woman. I encourage you to avoid further contact with her so you can re-evaluate your marriage without her in the picture. 

I really hope you and your wife are able to work things out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

If you wouldn't do it with your wife in the room watching you, it's cheating.

Did you invite your wife along?

No?

You're cheating.

Everyone here knows it and so do you. Stop lying to us, and to yourself.

Be a man and end it now.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Just wanted to update you guys. I finally had a good conversation with my wife last night. I laid the groundwork and told her that I'm not happy. She believes that since we have "good memories" together, we should stay together if only for the kids. I pretty much told her that we are going to counseling and if it doesn't work this time, I'm done. I told her that we are both young and both deserve to be happy. It's too early for me to understand how she feels about this but I'm really happy that she now knows how I feel.

As for the other woman, I cancelled the lunch date like I said I would. I've tried to keep my distance but I have found myself going through withdrawal when we don't talk. I think we are just too attached right now so I'm just going to try to find a way to get over her. I've found myself fantasizing over a life that may not not even be possible. I'm going to try and stay strong for my wife and kids. Thanks for all the advice!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good job.

btw..."going through withdrawal" - guess what that means?

You were already cheating.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You should get yourself a copy of Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass, so you can get a handle on what is happening to you. And watch the Ted Talk I posted the link for about brain chemicals too.

You need to go complete No Contact with the other woman.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> As for the other woman, I cancelled the lunch date like I said I would. I've tried to keep my distance but I have found myself going through withdrawal when we don't talk. I think we are just too attached right now so I'm just going to try to find a way to get over her. I've found myself fantasizing over a life that may not not even be possible. I'm going to try and stay strong for my wife and kids. Thanks for all the advice!


That's a mature and wise decision.

This is why you don't have affairs. You ARE already cheating. You are in an emotional affair. Your comments above I highlighted confirm that without a doubt.

This is why you

a. don't confide your marital problems to other women
b. don't meet with women in private you are attracted to
c. don't put time and energy into other women instead of your marriage

These things lead to serious problems at home. You have already begun making ridiculous comparisons.

Have you admitted to your wife that you've been disrespectful to her behind her back?

Last point. Do NOT expect counseling to be a cure all.

The two of YOU repair the marriage, NOT the therapist.

And lastly experience has shown that only 1 in 5 therapists on average make an improvement in marriages. The rest prove ineffective or in some cases make things worse.

Do NOT expect a therapist to magically cure everything.

You two need to

a. do your therapist shopping carefully, you may have to visit several until you find one you are both comfortable with
b. educate yourselves on infidelity with a good book ahead of time - _Not Just Friends_ is a landmark classic that every spouse should read
c. do the home work you are assigned
d. don't expect improvement overnight

Lastly, do NOT expect your spouse to "make you happy".. that's YOUR job. Do NOT lay that at your spouses' feet. You are just rationalizing a quick exit from the marriage and blaming your spouse while you run out the door.

Focus on mature adult choices that make both of you better off... always be looking for the WIN-WIN. They do exist.


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## mg2977 (Mar 20, 2013)

Yes the withdrawal and any thoughts of missing the OW are because you were in an EA. Think of it this way if your cancelled a lunch with a male friend would you be going through withdrawal, I think not. 

Please go complete NC with OW and focus on your marriage. Also get to MC but don't just go to MC as a way to play with your wife and then later say "I tried" etc, either commit to working on the marriage (which you should) or get out ( but without the OW). Do not waste your wife's time, do not steal any more moments of her life if you cannot work on this marriage!!

Please do not even consider leaving your wife for the OW, as the OW is a real piece of work if she wants anything to do with a married man, as no person with morals and integrity gets involved with a married person. As everyone has told you if you have an affair you will destroy more than you can imagine and your wife and children don't deserve the pain they will suffer.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

SadandAngry said:


> You should get yourself a copy of Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass, so you can get a handle on what is happening to you. And watch the Ted Talk I posted the link for about brain chemicals too.
> 
> You need to go complete No Contact with the other woman.


Was that in this thread? I must have missed it...

:scratchhead:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, ozzzy, one of my favorite points people make is this: If you put as much energy into pleasing your wife (causing her to want to please YOU) as you put into your mistress, your marriage would have no problems worth complaining about.

Your wife wants a loving partner just as much as you do. Just get back to that point. Pick up HNHN on the way home, sit down with your wife, and start reading it together. It will change your life.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: I haven't cheated yet but I need help with what I should do with my marriage.*



SadandAngry said:


> You should get yourself a copy of Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass, so you can get a handle on what is happening to you. And watch the Ted Talk I posted the link for about brain chemicals too.
> 
> You need to go complete No Contact with the other woman.


Worth repeating. Not just friends is available for immediate download through kindle


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Should I at some point tell my wife about this other woman? I have to admit that I'm still in contact with her and we still flirt over chat. We had an unavoidable encounter earlier and all I could think about was sleeping with her. I just can't explain what the feeling is although I'm sure some here have been in a similar position. She pretty much laid it out there a few weeks ago that she is available when I am ready. Some part of me just wants to say screw it and tell her to get a room but my conscious is holding me back.

I didn't think to tell my wife last night and I was hoping to try to keep this to myself. I'm afraid that if my wife knows about this other woman, she will dismiss all my complaints about this marriage and think that I'm making them up as an excuse to be with this other woman. I'm also afraid that if my wife finds out now, her actions and my emotional state would probably drive me closer to the other woman. If my wife asks me about this woman's characteristics, she will see that she is the polar opposite and I know she will get jealous. Should I try to sit down with her about this now or should I try to wait until we are at counseling?


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

turnera said:


> btw, ozzzy, one of my favorite points people make is this: If you put as much energy into pleasing your wife (causing her to want to please YOU) as you put into your mistress, your marriage would have no problems worth complaining about.
> 
> Your wife wants a loving partner just as much as you do. Just get back to that point. Pick up HNHN on the way home, sit down with your wife, and start reading it together. It will change your life.


I understand this but I also feel that I've put a lot of energy into this marriage that I would consider as being wasted. Over time, I've probably started to put more energy into things that didn't help my marriage. I guess it's just natural. I could put energy into making my wife dinner and possibly having mediocre sex. Or, I could put that same energy into someone else and get a whole lot more for my time.

I'll try again with this marriage and I will put all my energy into her. If I'm not getting the same feeling in return, then I see divorce as my only option.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

If you are truly meaning to put all effort into your marriage, then you must go NO CONTACT with the OW. 

A marriage cannot survive with 3 people involved. You have an emotional connection with her. She is an emotional affair partner for you. She has offered up sex to you. She will soon be your physical affair partner if you aren't careful. And that is a road you don't want to go down.

Read all the stories of pain and betrayal on this site. Both from BS & WS.

IT'S NOT WORTH IT


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Counseling is not a worth while endeavor if you are still in your affair. It is just a smoke screen and waste of money as you are not fully engaged in it. Either end the A and start counselling or just D now as counselling while in an A is just a mediocre band aid at best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> Should I at some point tell my wife about this other woman?


of course you should. your wife deserves to know that she is being cheated on.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

ozzzy said:


> I understand this but I also feel that I've put a lot of energy into this marriage that I would consider as being wasted. Over time, I've probably started to put more energy into things that didn't help my marriage. I guess it's just natural. I could put energy into making my wife dinner and possibly having mediocre sex. Or, I could put that same energy into someone else and get a whole lot more for my time.
> 
> I'll try again with this marriage and I will put all my energy into her. If I'm not getting the same feeling in return, then I see divorce as my only option.


What you are failing to fully grasp is the true cost of what you think (keyword) is a whole lot more. In fact, it is almost nothing. It certainly isn't worth anything. You will be a lying, self centered cheat. You will not be trustworthy by any account. You will have shown a complete absence of character. You will have failed utterly, both as a husband, and as a father. For what? The attention of someone so devoid of values, that they are willing to violate a marriage, and a family. Someone who values themselves little enough to be a mistress. Think about that for a bit. The OW is willing to be second rate, from the get go. What does that say about her?

When your world comes crashing down once your betrayal is revealed, and it almost certainly will, at some point the situation is going to suddenly look a lot different. Reality will set in (your not seeing reality at the moment, you've got dopamine colored blinders on, except for the lifeline you've got here at TAM), and you'll wonder what the **** have you done?

A lot of the energy you put into the marriage in the past was wasted. You didn't know enough to know where to invest the energy to get results. You and your wife did not know how to communicate effectively, or connect emotionally well enough to even know what needs you were both failing to meet. You were not mature enough to figure out what your failings were, and to work on them, instead of blaming her (same goes for her, its a two way street).

But here you have a crisis. Immense pain is imminent. Enough that you should be motivated to try for real change. Real growth. You have a golden opportunity here, and you've been just with it enough to come here, get advice, and kind of think that maybe, just maybe, there is something to what we are all saying.

Please believe me, there is. Your marriage can be terrific, if you and your wife seize this opportunity now. Take it! Read the books recommended, look at the websites, do the work needed to build a great self and a better relationship. You'll need to do the work anyway, with or without your wife, if you want any chance at real happiness in the long run.

I implore you at the very least, if you let the chance slide, at least divorce before you throw everything away, you cannot imagine the toll infidelity will inflict on your family.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

And yes, you should tell your wife, for 3 reasons.

She deserves to know.

Exposure will greatly increase the probability the affair will end, and stay ended.

You need to be honest with the people in your life. Be who you want to be, do not live in shame.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Counseling is not a worth while endeavor if you are still in your affair. It is just a smoke screen and waste of money as you are not fully engaged in it. Either end the A and start counselling or just D now as counselling while in an A is just a mediocre band aid at best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people use counselling as a way to grease the runners beneath their poor, deluded spouse as they see them rapidly sliding out and away from the marriage. Whilst the new interest waits, hovering on the sideline, so they can pretend they weren't cheating. Well, not really cheating!


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I posted this before, but it didn't form a link. Why people cheat, and the chemistry at work:
https://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat

The most important reason you should tell your wife is that if you don't, you are very much more likely to follow through and take it to P A. Countless people have stood at the same precipice as the one you are at, and convinced themselves they could handle it, that they wouldn't ever do such a thing, and then proceeded to ruin their lives in short order (including my wife). Believe this, and there's plenty of evidence on this site, as a rule, cheaters are incredibly stupid. Now consider the fact that you ozzzzy, are already a cheater, involved in an EA. You aren't superman, you're simply human. You've shown a lot more insight than many cheaters, by coming here and throwing out the anchor to slow your slide deeper into the ****. You can stop it, you can get off the slide, and back onto solid footing, if you choose to. If you reach out to your wife and loved ones and ask for help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> I understand this but I also feel that I've put a lot of energy into this marriage that I would consider as being wasted. Over time, I've probably started to put more energy into things that didn't help my marriage. I guess it's just natural. I could put energy into making my wife dinner and possibly having mediocre sex. Or, I could put that same energy into someone else and get a whole lot more for my time.
> 
> I'll try again with this marriage and I will put all my energy into her. If I'm not getting the same feeling in return, then I see divorce as my only option.


Jesus Christ, you are already GONE! You're WORSE than an emotional cheater. You're making excuses as to WHY YOU GET TO GET OUT.

So disappointed, ozzzy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> I understand this but I also feel that *I've put a lot of energy in*to this marriage that I would consider *as being wasted*. Over time, I've probably started to put *more energy into things that didn't help* my marriage. I guess *it's just natural [ed: bullsh*t]*. I *could put energy* into making my wife dinner and possibly *having mediocre sex*. Or, I could put that *same energy into someone else and get a whole lot more* for my time. *I'll try again [ed: no, you won't]* with this marriage and *I will put all my energy into her* *[ed: no, you won't]*. *If I'm not getting* the same feeling in return, then I see divorce as *my only option*.


 Whatever. You've already decided you can get better. You're wasting our time.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ozzzy... your wife is such a precious lady. she is going through life with bliss, thinking that her husband loves her. she goes to bed at night with the knowledge that her man wont betray her. he will protect her. he LOVES her. 

i feel so bad for her... she has no idea what your about to do to her.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> Should I at some point tell my wife about this other woman? I have to admit that I'm still in contact with her and we still flirt over chat. We had an unavoidable encounter earlier and all I could think about was sleeping with her. I just can't explain what the feeling is although I'm sure some here have been in a similar position. She pretty much laid it out there a few weeks ago that she is available when I am ready. Some part of me just wants to say screw it and tell her to get a room but my conscious is holding me back.


Everyone here has already warned you how STUPID that is, and that you will destroy your home, make a huge mess, and you will regret making such a reckless move.

But here you are.. fantasizing anyways...

I can't believe there is 16 pages of fantasizing about sex and other women here and not ONE remark about how much a divorce will impact your children.

My God I can't believe the selfishness and stupidity.



ozzzy said:


> I didn't think to tell my wife last night and I was hoping to try to keep this to myself.


I would suggest you keep it to yourself UNTIL you two are working as a couple. I would suggest you make this one of the items of discussion WITH a GOOD therapist.

But that on the contingency that you STOP ALL CONTACT NOW.

No good bye, no explanations.

You change your email address, phone number, etc. Terminate all lines of communication to keep her from contacting you.

But you won't do that. Sixteen pages of you talking about yourself and not a word about your children pretty much convinces me you are a lost cause.



ozzzy said:


> I'm afraid that if my wife knows about this other woman, she will dismiss all my complaints about this marriage and think that I'm making them up as an excuse to be with this other woman.


And your wife would be spot on.

When you have an emotional affair, you will begin to find fault after fault with your spouse that you would NOT if you invest emotionally into your damn marriage.

But here you are spending all your time fantasizing about someone else instead.

Your wife would be spot on.



ozzzy said:


> I'm also afraid that if my wife finds out now, her actions and my emotional state would probably drive me closer to the other woman.


Then END CONTACT.

Jesus how many times does everyone here have to repeat this?

This does not mean you just stop phoning her.

This means you CHANGE your freaking NUMBER.

You CHANGE your EMAIL address.

END contact means you SEVER chances of contact HAPPENING.

BUT my bet is you won't bother.

Just like an alcoholic that thinks they can quit with booze in the house you will keep contact open and wait for her to call you. Then you will just point the finger at her on here and say she started it. That's like kindergarten mentality.



ozzzy said:


> If my wife asks me about this woman's characteristics, she will see that she is the polar opposite and I know she will get jealous. Should I try to sit down with her about this now or should I try to wait until we are at counseling?


OR you can offer your wife some REASSURANCE rather than the nonsense she likely gets handed from you.

Sorry, but after sixteen pages you have painted a pretty clear picture of your efforts into your marriage here. YOU are worried SHE might get JEALOUS? YOU are having an affair and you want to accuse HER of jealousy?

_Sorry, but reacting to an AFFAIR is NOT "jealousy".. it's called outrage at BETRAYAL._

Grow up and start owning your destructive behavior here for once. Are you going to take ANY ownership in the damage YOU have done to your marriage with this emotional affair? Do you realize how much more DAMAGE needs repaired now? Do you realize how much HARDER a repair effort will now BE for BOTH of you?

And all you can do is worry about her reaction? Really? How about YOU taking ownership of the MESS YOU MADE here already? How about you admit you have made a mess and commit to REPAIRING the MESS YOU MADE? Starting with PROPERLY ENDING ALL CONTACT with OW so BOTH of you can FOCUS on the MARRIAGE.

You don't just sit down with your wife. You END FREAKIN CONTACT. Change numbers, mail addresses, restaurants. You destroy every souvenir you are keeping in your phone as well.

Destroy it all.

_*You will NOT REPAIR a marriage with another woman on SPEED DIAL.*_

YOUR WIFE, the MOTHER of your CHILDREN will require 100% of your ATTENTION.

Right now she's lucky if she has five percent of it.

YOU have a LOT of growing up and focusing to do.

You cannot do that with a third party in the picture.


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

ozzzy said:


> I'm not keeping her around until the divorce. If my wife does what she needs to do, there will be no divorce. So far, all I've been getting is blame shifting and blank stares. This other woman has nothing to do with the way my wife is treating me. Even though this other woman told me that she is into me, that doesn't mean that I should just cut her off and kick her out of my life. What if she never told me that? Then it would be OK to go out together right?



What planet are you from? It does not matter what she has and has not told you. Might I add she HAS told you!! YOU know that YOU have an attraction. So it is just another step into your relationship with this OW. How you are justifying this is beyond me. I see the fog, I recognize it and man...you are swimming in it body and soul. Try and justify all you like. TRY being the key word...........THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION. You are wrong in your thinking here. To be honest, I believe you know how wrong you are. I think if even one person here said "hey go ahead..its just friends " You would jump on that and hang on...I think you are now just looking for that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> I understand this but I also feel that I've put a lot of energy into this marriage that I would consider as being wasted. Over time, I've probably started to put more energy into things that didn't help my marriage. I* guess it's just natural. I could put energy into making my wife dinner and possibly having mediocre sex. Or, I could put that same energy into someone else and get a whole lot more for my time*.


Maybe your wife gets, on some level, that you have such a nasty/selfish attitude about her. Cooking dinner to get sex? Really? Doing chores do not get you sex. 

You need to either just file for divorce or tell your wife about the other woman. There is no way that you can fix your marriage while you are already half way out the door. 

Your wife deserves to know that nothing she does will fix this marriage because you are just looking for excuses to have an affair.



ozzzy said:


> I'll try again with this marriage and I will put all my energy into her. If I'm not getting the same feeling in return, then I see divorce as my only option.


Just file for divorce. This will be a false attempt to fix things. You will blame your wife for the failure when she does not even realize that you are having an affair. Save the counseling money, you'll need to for the divorce.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I understand this but I also feel that I've put a lot of energy into this marriage


Constructive effort?

ZERO. You dont' know how to build a healthy marriage. No offense, but it is abundantly clear to anyone here that you are completely out of your element.

You put your needs ahead of the home
You keep secrets from your wife
You create fantasy relationships in your head that cause disconnect at home
You rationalize, fantasize, and criticize...

This is not constructive energy into marital repair.

The energy you have expended thus far is DESTRUCTIVE energy.

Yes, spend more energy destroying your marriage and you would.. YOU would be better off divorcing. But your WIFE and your CHILDREN will PAY the PRICE for YOUR selfishness. And in twenty years YOU will REGRET the MESS you make. But by then it will be WAY too LATE.



ozzzy said:


> that I would consider as being wasted. Over time, I've probably started to put more energy into things that didn't help my marriage.


Sixteen pages of rationalizing some ridiculous fantasy, ya I'd say destructive energy is spent by you.

Not your wife.. YOU. YOU are damaging your marriage here.

Fix THAT FIRST.



ozzzy said:


> I guess it's just natural. I could put energy into making my wife dinner and possibly having mediocre sex.


That's it? That's all you got?

That's your idea of repairing a marriage?

Make dinner?

How about picking up a BOOK and LEARNING HOW TO REPAIR a MARRIAGE?



ozzzy said:


> Or, I could put that same energy into someone else and get a whole lot more for my time.


A stupid and reckless assumption.. one of many in the last sixteen pages...

Not a SHOT in HELL is that OW going to work out. The two of you would just destroy each other along with your family.

This OW is secretly offering to DESTROY your MARRIAGE, your HOME, and your FAMILY. YOUR JOB is to PROTECT your marriage, your home, and your family.

But here you are fantasizing about it instead of protecting your family from this threat.

Would you run into a burning building for your kids? Well guess what. OW is a offering to set your home ablaze.

Run deal with the THREAT to your HOME.



ozzzy said:


> I'll try again with this marriage and I will put all my energy into her. If I'm not getting the same feeling in return, then I see divorce as my only option.



Right.. still worried about yourself.

How about you worry about HER, and what kind of HUSBAND she has right now?

Do you realize being a husband (a provider and protector) and a father will take up about 95% of your time if you do it right?

That means you live for your wife and family. That's called marriage and adulthood. That IS what you signed up for.

What kind of husband does your wife have right now?

I'd say a pretty crappy one, wouldn't you?

· You put your needs ahead of the home
· You keep secrets from your wife
· You create fantasy relationships in your head that cause disconnect at home
· You rationalize, fantasize, and criticize...
· Your relationship priorities are way out of synch
· You invest time that ought to go into your marriage and family into a threat to your home - yes, you are STEALING TIME from your wife and children and SNEAKING it to another woman in secret

Would you want you daughter marrying a man like you are right now?

Be the man you want your daughter to marry.

Maybe you should start GIVING a better feeling in the home and you might get a better one back.

Honestly, more talk about your mistakes and your commitments to this woman, and LESS concern for childish sexual urges.


You are a grown man with a wife and family. It's time to start acting like it.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Maybe your wife gets, on some level, that you have such a nasty/selfish attitude about her. Cooking dinner to get sex? Really? Doing chores do not get you sex.
> 
> You need to either just file for divorce or tell your wife about the other woman. There is no way that you can fix your marriage while you are already half way out the door.
> 
> ...


Yup, HE's already made way too much damage here to repair this easily at this point. But he doesnt' seem to even realize he's done anything destructive here.

Men that are having emotional affairs have ZERO BUSINESS complaining about their wives. Sorry, that's just hypocritical beyond belief.

And all we have is sixteen pages of him blaming his wife for everything and fantasizing about other women.

I am in absolute shock.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Why don't you D? You are planing to humiliate your wife in a way that you can easily avoid by D'ing. This is deliberate selfish cruelty to a women who does not deserve this treatment. 

Can you figure out why this OW wants to have anything to do with you? I am not sure it is raw sexual attraction. Your posts project a weak-willed, insecurity that is not usually attractive to a woman. 

Could it be money or anything of concrete value that she wants? Maybe it's me but it's hard to see her pursuit as raw sexual attraction. 

You trade things for sex, what have you got that she would see as valuable? Does she see you as a skilled lover? 

Will she be disappointed in any of your physical attributes, you know the organ with the small brain. Are you overweight, skinny weak arms, pot belly? 

You are probably better off working on yourself and your marriage. This woman is playing you. When you're hooked she is bound to get bored quickly and dump you.


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Ozzzy, you still with us?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Can't believe I read this entire thread. It's like 16 pages of....













Do your wife a favor and divorce her. This is just 16 pages of self-serving drivel. It's pretty obvious what you want to do and from what I can tell you're far more interested in blaming your wife for all your marital (and possibly psychological) issues and arguing against any advice for taking steps to fixing your marriage or not cheating.

If you're going to cheat, go out and do it. To me it looks like your mind is already made up. I'm not sure what you're doing here, all you seem to do is want to question, ignore, and argue against the advice people are giving you despite being willing to admit the critiques on your personality and mentality. But I ask that you quit wasting people's time on this forum if you're not even going to pretend to take the advice given to you.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

QuietSoul said:


> Ozzzy, you still with us?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I'm still here. I just haven't seen a need to post much more since my thoughts haven't changed since my last few posts. I'm still going to try to work out things in my wife. Yes, I'm still in contact with the other woman and even if I cut her off completely (phone/email), there are still days when I bump into her. The attraction is more than sexual because we have so much more in common. I enjoy talking to her and I feel that is something that I need in my life right now. We have a lot in common and I don't see how giving that up would necessarily help my marriage.

I don't feel that affairs are so black and white like you guys are portraying it. So what if she has shown interest and so what if I've been tempted. I've made the decision to not take our relationship to a physical level. Still, that doesn't mean that we can't be friends and keep in touch. I can control myself and I feel like I have control in this situation.

Also, someone mentioned that I didn't bring up my kids. Of course, I love them and of course I know that they will be hurt the most if we go through divorce. I also think that they are resilient and if we do divorce, they'll get over it one day. I just can't see myself staying with anyone "for the kids" but that's just me. What happens when the kids are grown and move out? What would be my excuse for staying then?

As for my wife, we have our first counseling session next week. I've pretty much told her how I felt and I plan to tell more at our first session. Everyone here is jumping on me like I'm the bad guy but what you fall to realize is that you are talking to a man that's been putting up with this crap for years. I refuse to live the rest of my life trying to make my wife happy if it means that I can't be happy. I'm far from a perfect man and I know that I've made some bad decisions. However, I deserve to be happy just like everyone else and that's what I'm fighting for. If that means divorce, then so be it. I want a give-take relationship rather than a give-give relationship. My family doesn't realize it yet but that is what I truly want. 

As far as I'm concerned, the foundation my marriage was built on was flawed from the beginning. I've already mentioned that we were both very young and we got married for the physical attraction alone. When I look back on it, it makes me upset. I didn't even know what her life plans were. I didn't know her spending habits and if she was good with money. We hadn't even lived with each other until she came to live with me in the states. It was pretty much just a physical attraction that would have subsided had I thought about it for a few more months. To be fair, she didn't know much about me either. For that alone, she is lucky that I've been able to hold this family apart for this long because if I shared her mentality on life, we wouldn't even have a quarter of what we have now.

Is our marriage salvageable? I really don't know. I do promise to put forth the effort to fix it and hope for the best.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

ozzzy said:


> Yes I'm still here. I just haven't seen a need to post much more since my thoughts haven't changed since my last few posts. I'm still going to try to work out things in my wife. *Yes, I'm still in contact with the other woman and even if I cut her off completely (phone/email), there are still days when I bump into her. The attraction is more than sexual because we have so much more in common. I enjoy talking to her and I feel that is something that I need in my life right now. We have a lot in common and I don't see how giving that up would necessarily help my marriage.
> 
> I don't feel that affairs are so black and white like you guys are portraying it. So what if she has shown interest and so what if I've been tempted. I've made the decision to not take our relationship to a physical level. Still, that doesn't mean that we can't be friends and keep in touch. I can control myself and I feel like I have control in this situation.*


You are doomed. You are an emotional cheater and NOTHING your wife has done or not done excuses your behavior. You are the epitome of selfish.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Actually, it is that black and white. You just don't want to give up your fix. Your brain is swimming in chemicals, triggered by the novelty of the other woman. Your rationalization hamster is in overdrive, demonizing your wife, rewriting your history, in order to make the indefensible defensible.

You say you'll put in the effort to fix your marriage, but won't cut off contact. What effort then? Effectively none. Don't bother with marriage counselling, you're wasting your hard earned money, spend it on a divorce instead.

Should you be happy? Sure you should. Is it your wife's fault that you're not? No ****ing way. Will dumping her make you happy, enable some damsel to sweep in and make you happy? Not a chance. You'll still have the same issues within holding you back. You'll co create the same ****ty situation with anyone who chooses to get involved deeply with you.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> I want a give-take relationship rather than a give-give relationship. My family doesn't realize it yet but that is what I truly want.
> 
> *For that alone, she is lucky that I've been able to hold this family apart for this long because if I shared her mentality on life, we wouldn't even have a quarter of what we have now.*
> 
> Is our marriage salvageable? I really don't know. I do promise to put forth the effort to fix it and hope for the best.


All lip service. It would be cool if you believed it and mean it, but you don't. You do have a right to be happy, but you have no right to do so at other's expenses. You are exploiting your W and kids by continuing to act and play the part that everything is normal, yet then sweep off to your OW and A (let's face it, it won't be long before it goes PA, as you have already convinced yourself that you deserve everything you are getting). Whether you think it is noticeable or not, they all pick up ion your changes and know something is not right with your actions and behaviors, and when you are with them you are dreaming of being with the OW and the wonderful life and happiness that you will get from that, so you are cheating them of true focused time with them.

Because you have been in a bad marriage (according to you) and stuck to it for so many years, doesn't mean that you are entitled to cheat on your W and we should just all slap you on the back, high five, and congratulate you on your behavior. What you don't understand is several of us here have been through the same issues and are older than you with worse marriages lasting longer in our past, yet we aren't entitled to destroy others because of it nor feel that entitles you to the same. 

Do the honorable thing and cut your wife loose as you are never going to be happy with your W, you have already decided that. You say you want a give-take relationship and that is exactly it, she gives to you and you take from her. It should be equal parts of compromise. Have you tried to take college classes to learn her language or culture like you have demanded of her? Have you tried to find hobbies or activities that you two might share an interest in? You won't even give her sex, because you don't get yours, so how is that show willingness.

As for the bolded part? I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. You have been holding the family apart for years??

You complain about her spending but you seem to be very into the materialistic lifestyle she is providing through her spending as you keep referring to the things you have. Life and happiness is more than things. I would give everything I have to be able to life a happy, modest life and have just enough to get by and be safe, with a little extra to show my kids some fun times.


You end it with you are willing to put forth the effort to fix it, but you are not willing to even go NC with the OW, so how can you expect to fix something when you are still in the second illicit relationship? Prove that you are willing to work on it and read "Not Just Friends" on your own without the counselor's suggestion and see if someone can truly be "just friends" with someone of the opposite sex that you are in an EA with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> I love them and of course I know that they will be hurt the most if we go through divorce.


No, they will be hurt the most when they discovered you THREW THEM AND THEIR LIFE AWAY to screw some woman who was more interesting than their mom.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> I don't feel that affairs are so black and white like you guys are portraying it.


Says every cheater ever.



ozzzy said:


> Still, that doesn't mean that we can't be friends and keep in touch. I can control myself


Says every cheater ever.



ozzzy said:


> I also think that they are resilient and if we do divorce, they'll get over it one day.


Says every cheater ever.



ozzzy said:


> I just can't see myself staying with anyone "for the kids"


Says every cheater ever.



ozzzy said:


> If that means divorce, then so be it.


Great. Divorce. We WANT you to. We just don't want you to SHATTER your kids' lives - forever - by screwing another woman before you divorce.



ozzzy said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the foundation my marriage was built on was flawed from the beginning.


Says every cheater ever.



ozzzy said:


> I do promise to put forth the effort to fix it and hope for the best.


WHAT effort? The one where you just can't WAIT for it to _fail _so you will be justified in running to OW's home? You deserve an award for such a heroic effort.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, my father cheating on my mother and the subsequent divorce RUINED MY LIFE. It turned me into a lifelong MESS. No longer having my dad in my house, and all the emotional bullsh*t that went along with it, the questioning what I did wrong, the convincing that if I had just been better he never would have left, the wondering why he cared more about the new woman than he did me, the watching him DITCH me the day I turned 16 (you have a car and you know where to find me) just because SHE said so...

You are well and truly CLUELESS about what devastation you are about to rain down on the children you pretend to love.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> No, they will be hurt the most when they discovered you THREW THEM AND THEIR LIFE AWAY to screw some woman who was more interesting than their mom.


This is almost the exact words spoken by my 2 girls, although they used more age appropriate versions of the statement as they were 10 and 11 when they found out.

I also got to see it in my cousins faces and here them tell of how Dad doesn't have time for them now that he has the "new" family. Kids hold grudges when what was solely theirs is taken away and given to someone else? Don't believe me go find a young child and take their toy away and give it to another and then watch the aftermath.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> All lip service. It would be cool if you believed it and mean it, but you don't. You do have a right to be happy, but you have no right to do so at other's expenses. You are exploiting your W and kids by continuing to act and play the part that everything is normal, yet then sweep off to your OW and A (let's face it, it won't be long before it goes PA, as you have already convinced yourself that you deserve everything you are getting). Whether you think it is noticeable or not, they all pick up ion your changes and know something is not right with your actions and behaviors, and when you are with them you are dreaming of being with the OW and the wonderful life and happiness that you will get from that, so you are cheating them of true focused time with them.
> 
> Because you have been in a bad marriage (according to you) and stuck to it for so many years, doesn't mean that you are entitled to cheat on your W and we should just all slap you on the back, high five, and congratulate you on your behavior. What you don't understand is several of us here have been through the same issues and are older than you with worse marriages lasting longer in our past, yet we aren't entitled to destroy others because of it nor feel that entitles you to the same.
> 
> ...


I misspoke on that bolded comment. What I meant was that I've been holding this family together for all this time. You guys have given my wife a pass on all the behavior that I've listed. What if I just did enough to get by and relied on my looks to get me opportunities? What if I denied her her favorite sexual positions without a good reason? What if I spent my money on what I wanted and just said f*ck the bills? If we were both like that, we would have lost our house and many other things that she values many years ago. On the contrary, I don't care about any of the physical things that we've accumulated. If we do separate. She can have everything. The house, her car, the furniture.....Everything. All I would want is my instruments and my car. That's the least I could give her after bringing her here and giving her a new life. She values all of that more than me when all I want is to be happy and feel genuine love in my relationship. That's a feeling that I haven't felt in a long time.

Now I haven't taken college courses to try to learn her language/culture but then again, her language is not dominate where we live to benefit us. Now if we were in her country and learning her language would be beneficial for me to support my family, of course I would do it. I've finished my degree while we've been together and at one point, I was taking 6 classes while working full time. I don't want a pat on the back but I get the feeling from her that I only did that because I was supposed to. She feels that that since I've worked so hard, she can relax and live the good life. I'm tired of being a yes man and it's time that I get what I'm owed. I've dramatically changed her life and she has been able to bring her mother and sister over here because of me. Now what thanks do I get? Mediocre half assed sex? A wife who doesn't value pursuing bigger things because she has a hard working husband? A life that I feel stuck in because we have kids together? A life where my wife's needs are proportional to my salary?

And yes, I know that some people here have been in a much worst marriage than the one that I'm in. I've valued all of the advice and I've read every single post here. I've learned so much since I've been here although I haven't agreed with all of the advice given. I do know that people have chosen to stay with their spouses for things such as infidelity which is something that I cannot even accuse her of. It's just that I feel that my marriage was built on lies and lust and I feel that I've been used. My mother tried to warn me before I got married. She said that some women just marry people just to try to come over her. I was young, rebellious, and thought I was in love. Nothing that happens now will change any of that. All of our "good" memories don't seem genuine to me because I felt that I've been manipulated.

I'm sorry if anyone feels that I've wasted your time by being here. I have learned a lot and I'm still learning. I'm not asking for a pat on the back or a high five. I came here confused because I didn't know what to do and I couldn't understand my feelings for this other woman. Now the path has become much more clearer and I know what I need to do. I hope things change with my wife but I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't do it. I see now that I'm asking her to become someone that she has never been. I feel that the person I married molded herself (at the time) to become what I liked in order for her to get "in". I think that over the last 4-5 years, I've really seen her true self and that is not who I want to be married to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ozzzy said:


> You guys have given my wife a pass on all the behavior that I've listed.


No, we haven't. We just told you to TRY to be honorable about this and just divorce your wife. Your kids CAN adjust to two people drifting apart. They can't adjust - and won't - to one of their parents being dishonest, selfish, and immoral.

It's an easy fix, ozzzy. Just file for divorce and cut off contact with OW until it's done.


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## ozzzy (Apr 8, 2014)

turnera said:


> fwiw, my father cheating on my mother and the subsequent divorce RUINED MY LIFE. It turned me into a lifelong MESS. No longer having my dad in my house, and all the emotional bullsh*t that went along with it, the questioning what I did wrong, the convincing that if I had just been better he never would have left, the wondering why he cared more about the new woman than he did me, the watching him DITCH me the day I turned 16 (you have a car and you know where to find me) just because SHE said so...
> 
> You are well and truly CLUELESS about what devastation you are about to rain down on the children you pretend to love.


But what about your dad's happiness? What about your mother's happiness? I don't doubt that you felt pain but wouldn't it seem that their happiness should be a part of the equation too? Do you think it would have been better for your mother to keep taking him back while he constantly saw other women? In the end, parents should try to create a better environment for their kids. I don't think an environment where one or both parents are unhappy is a good environment for a child. 

As for me, my father was into drugs/women and he left when I was around 9. It didn't bother me much then and still doesn't bother me today. Seeing my mom happy was worth more than any sort of entitlement I thought I was owed because he wasn't there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think my father should have kept his d*ck in his pants. But he couldn't. He was a selfish spoiled brat baby of the family who was used to women doting on him and when my mom had the audacity to refuse to quit her nursing job to be his housewife, he cheated. There are some cases where the cheater just needs to grow up and be moral.

Again, we are not telling you to stay with your wife. We are telling you to either (1) stay with your wife ONLY if you never contact OW again because keeping both of them on the hook is IMMORAL or if you really don't want her, (2) have the moral integrity to divorce your wife and then pursue the other woman.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, what you are telling us? All the problems, all the reasons, all the seemingly valid incontrovertable 'evidence' that you weren't meant to be with your wife? Affair fog. We see it here over and over and over and over and over again. It's biological, chemical, psychological, and every one of you cheaters - unless you're just a sociopath - goes through the EXACT SAME metamorphosis, sees through the exact same fog, uses the exact same script. Thus my 'says every cheater ever.' If you had asked, we could have told YOU what you were about to tell US. Heard it all before. Your OW is nothing special. Your marriage wasn't especially doomed. You're just following the script.



> The Wayward Fog is described as similar to being brainwashed. The thrill of the affair envelops the wayward partner in good feelings and the excitement can be overwhelming. S/he feels a new high, a feeling of being “in love.” Comparisons are made between the marriage and the affair and, inevitably, the marriage suffers.
> 
> They Justify The Infidelity
> 
> ...


Coping With Infidelity: Understanding The "Wayward Fog" - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Then as we have said. D her and move on. Don't destroy her and you kids for some fleeting attraction.

I agree that everyone deserves happiness, but it is not her fault that you are not happy. She might be just as unhappy as you, but her culture may frown upon women expressing such thoughts to the men in their life. 

As for the college courses to learn her culture and language. Did you ever think that it may not help in your current location, but it would do wonders to show her that you are willing to work to accept her and her heritage. She might feel alienated and unacceptable in your eyes, as she may see it as you view her culture and therefor her and her family on a social scale less than you put yourself on. As Americans we tend to think that everyone looks up and strives to be us, but we are not always higher on the social ladder. Also, your kids have the heritage in them and wouldn't it behove you to make sure that they know of this as well?

You have continually brought up her family coming over here, but how do you know that is what they have always wanted and that they didn't do it just to be closer to their daughter? They might have really never had a desire to live in the US, but felt it was either that or never see their child/ sibling again?

I am not saying you are wrong in lots of your opinions, but more that they are very one sided and don't seem to account for possibilities on the other side of the coin. You are constantly defending yourself as you say we are all against you, and that is fine, but we only have your side of the story, you're the only one here, and we have seen the blame shifting all to often from people in affairs. Your side of the story has you as Mr. Rodgers and the eternal provider that does nothing but bows at her feet while requiring all sorts of things from her which she is unwilling to even attempt. Does that sound like a fair assessment of your M?

The fog tends to color one's impressions and cause them to rewrite history. We are not saying you are wrong, as everything may be the god's honest truth, but if that is the case then you should D. If you are thinking about R then something inside must say that not everything is exactly as you are seeing or portraying it. Just my $0.02 and worth what you paid for it.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> But what about your dad's happiness? What about your mother's happiness? I don't doubt that you felt pain but wouldn't it seem that their happiness should be a part of the equation too? Do you think it would have been better for your mother to keep taking him back while he constantly saw other women? In the end, parents should try to create a better environment for their kids. I don't think an environment where one or both parents are unhappy is a good environment for a child.


I agree they should create a better environment for the children, but your questions still show that you don't get it. 

The parents happiness should be taken into account, but that happiness was taken at the expense of another's. The father didn't leave and then get remarried, he was cheating and left for another woman. He didn't do the respectable thing and D and maintain a good relationship with the children and show them that they were loved and cared for. Instead he showed them that by abandoning his family to pursue his happiness and another woman, while humiliating the family in the process, that they were not worth his love nor was he going to make them feel that love. 

Sorry, but when infidelity is involved the children always find out down the road and question, why was I not good enough, and they can sometimes be picked on by other kids as their dad/ mom is a cheater and low life. Other families don't want their kids to play or associate with the cheater's family for fear of some sort of moral issues arising. 

When parents D for their reasons and infidelity is off the table, their generally is less stigma, tension, and pain for all involved, but when infidelity is involved people start to judge everyone (innocent kids included) and that is what you aren't seeing. your kids will be the children of cheaters and since they are boys, some might assume it is in the male genes of your family. Be honorable and go NC with the OW and D if that is what you really think will make you happy in the end.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> D if that is what you really think will make you happy in the end.


The really great part is you're in no position to really know if D will make you happy. You think it will, but you thought marriage would make you happy. You thought a kid would make you happy. You thought more kids would make you happy. And on and on.

Right now, you don't even get something as basic as how continuing a relationship with this other woman is an existential threat to your marriage, or how it will render any "effort" you make to improve your marriage useless before you even try.

You don't understand why we are all over you, and not your wife. You're here, and your problem is really you, not her at all. Sure, she has her own problems, and guess what, you're not really her problem either. They are hers to solve. But she's not here, you are. Tell her about the site, sign her up, and have her start a thread. Then we will be all over her too.

Nobody here hates you. We aren't out to get you. We are not trying to dupe you or trick you. You came here with a problem, and you are getting the best advice we can give on how to deal with it. We just want to save you the pain of making a known horrible mistake, one that many of us have direct experience with. We are trying to give you the benefit of our pain, our lessons learned. That's all. But you are the one who has to use your rationality to weigh the risks. You need to make the choices. You are the one who will bear the consequences or rewards. You are the one in control of your own life. And your choices so far have led you right here. What will you do about it?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ozzzy said:


> Yes I'm still here. I just haven't seen a need to post much more since my thoughts haven't changed since my last few posts.






ozzzy said:


> I'm still going to try to work out things in my wife.


Lip service. As long as OW is in the picture, you aren't "trying", you are just going through the motions and rationalizing.

*You cannot repair a marriage with another woman on speed dial.
*



ozzzy said:


> Yes, I'm still in contact with the other woman and even if I cut her off completely (phone/email), there are still days when I bump into her.


Then change your day to day routines. Wherever you are meeting her, stop GOING there.

Come on, you are just making excuses now. You are a smart guy and know this already...



ozzzy said:


> The attraction is more than sexual because we have so much more in common.


And you think having a physical AND an emotional attraction makes her LESS dangerous to your marriage??

Come on. You are a SMART guy. You KNOW that's bullshyte.



ozzzy said:


> I enjoy talking to her and I feel that is something that I need in my life right now.


THAT is BLATANT rationalizing and you know it.

You don't NEED another WOMAN in your LIFE right now. That is the LAST thing your MARRIAGE needs right now.



ozzzy said:


> We have a lot in common and I don't see how giving that up would necessarily help my marriage.


The fact that you keep arguing about it makes it MORE obvious she has to GO for your marriage repair efforts to be sincere.

If you had said "OK, she goes, no big deal..." then it would likely NOT have been that big a deal.

But after sixteen pages here you are STILL ARGUING that she's NOT a problem? SIXTEEN PAGES PROVES that she's a PROBLEM.

Let me word this another way :

You, an intelligent married man cannot understand how removing a woman you have been pursuing romantically in secret would help repair your marriage?

Really? Do you think we are STUPID?



ozzzy said:


> I don't feel that affairs are so black and white like you guys are portraying it.


No one attached color codes to infidelity. What we are warning you is that when your marriage is troubled the LAST thing your marriage needs is a THIRD PARTY DISTRACTING YOU from repairing your marriage.

Come on... you get this, you are just rationalizing... and YOU KNOW you are rationalizing.

Affairs aren't black or white, they are intrusive complications in marriages that are NOT easy to manage to BEGIN with. Even if she did NOT EXIST you would have your work cut out for you to repair this.

With a third party intruding into marriage repair efforts you are NOT going to fix this. You are just wasting everyone's time.



ozzzy said:


> So what if she has shown interest and so what if I've been tempted.


She's an interference and a distraction. You know this better than we do. SIXTEEN PAGES or EVIDENCE here proves how much of an interference she already is.

You cannot fix this with her around. You know it as well as we do. STOP making EXCUSES.



ozzzy said:


> I've made the decision to not take our relationship to a physical level.


Emotional affairs are MORE distracting than sexual affairs.

You have admitted YOURSELF that she's a distraction.

You just keep making excuses for yourself and rationalizing...

Why don't you just take the cowards way out and FILE for DIVORCE already.

You aren't kidding ONE SINGLE PERSON here with your going to counseling.

Are you planning on being dishonest with the therapist regarding your infidelity along with your wife?

I can promise you that the therapist you meet, if you are honest with them, they will direct you to END ALL CONTACT.

That is the FIRST THING a good therapist is going to do if you want to repair a marriage. The first thing they will tell you to do is END YOUR AFFAIR.



ozzzy said:


> Still, that doesn't mean that we can't be friends and keep in touch. I can control myself and I feel like I have control in this situation.


She's THREATENED your WIFE, CHILDREN and YOUR MARRIAGE. That is NOT a FRIENDSHIP. That is called an AFFAIR.

You do NOT have control over your emotions. You have ADMITTED that on THIS DAMN FORUM.

You are just lying to US now along with your wife.. what is the point of all this typing you do?



ozzzy said:


> I also think that they are resilient and if we do divorce, they'll get over it one day.


You really need to learn to do some damn research.

Children are ALWAYS damaged by DIVORCE rather than growing up in a loving home with their parents together.

YOU have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

You just keeping lying and making stuff up every page here and NO ONE is BUYING it.



ozzzy said:


> I just can't see myself staying with anyone "for the kids" but that's just me.


NO ONE is suggesting you remain in a fractured marriage to keep your family together. What EVERYONE here is suggesting is that you make a sincere and concerted effort to repair your fractured marriage.



ozzzy said:


> What happens when the kids are grown and move out? What would be my excuse for staying then?


NO one is suggesting you remain married as an "excuse." YOU are making excuses to LEAVE your marriage.

There are SIXTEEN PAGES of excuses from you as to why you want to take the cowardly way out and continue to cheat on your wife.



ozzzy said:


> As for my wife...I've pretty much told her how I felt and I plan to tell more at our first session.


You revealed to her that you are CHEATING did you?

Funny, you didn't mention that here yet.



ozzzy said:


> Everyone here is jumping on me like I'm the bad guy


YOU are CHEATING on your WIFE and your CHILDREN.

That MAKES YOU THE BAD GUY.



ozzzy said:


> but what you fall to realize is that you are talking to a man that's been putting up with this crap for years.


And your wife has been putting up with your "crap" for years. That's called a mis-managed marriage. Lots of them out there.

CHEATING your WIFE and CHILDREN will NOT repair a mis-managed marriage.



ozzzy said:


> I refuse to live the rest of my life trying to make my wife happy if it means that I can't be happy.


And for the thousandth time no one suggested you make her happy. SHE does that on her own. YOU just have to be a good husband and father, which right now you are failing miserably at.

No one here suggested you live in a marriage and be miserable. NO ONE here.

It's just one straw man after another from you.



ozzzy said:


> I'm far from a perfect man and I know that I've made some bad decisions. However, I deserve to be happy just like everyone else and that's what I'm fighting for.


You aren't fighting to be happy, you are CHEATING for some CHEAP THRILLS at the EXPENSE of INNOCENT CHILDREN.



ozzzy said:


> If that means divorce, then so be it. I want a give-take relationship rather than a give-give relationship. My family doesn't realize it yet but that is what I truly want.


I bet a million bucks your wife gives and you just don't appreciate or even notice half of it.

A good part of marriage is a thankless job.



ozzzy said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the foundation my marriage was built on was flawed from the beginning.


As is your infidelity you are engaged in right now, but you insist on pursuing that don't you?



ozzzy said:


> It was pretty much just a physical attraction that would have subsided had I thought about it for a few more months. To be fair, she didn't know much about me either.


None of that justifies paying lip service to marriage therapy while you and OW sabotage your marriage in secret.



ozzzy said:


> For that alone, she is lucky that I've been able to hold this family apart for this long because if I shared her mentality on life, we wouldn't even have a quarter of what we have now.


I am sure your wife made contributions you aren't appreciating, just like she's not appreciating all of yours.

You BOTH need to put 100% of your effort into appreciating each other MORE, and get RID of any third party saboteurs.

But.. that's been said many many times and you just keep spitting on it.



ozzzy said:


> Is our marriage salvageable? I really don't know. I do promise to put forth the effort to fix it and hope for the best.


Not with OW around.. no.

Your promises are WORTHLESS while you keep CHEATING with another woman behind your wife's back and soon your therapist's back as well.

False promises will result in a false effort to repair this.

Stop wasting your time and your money.

Just file, go cheat, and destroy the life you have spent years to build.

Well done.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Hehe you have to give it to 'em

I've read the first few and the last couple :smthumbup: Excellent

Simple analysis : 

Cake eater .. and one that justifies their position - Top marks for that

Death by slow twisting of the trickle gaslighing knife

Nil respect given.

So answer = Nil respect in return from anybody that understands how all this works 

Thought I'd just chip in with an accurate representation for all those who haven't bothered with this thread


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