# Should you ever feel bad for being "disappointed"?



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Just a question I had in my mind after an minor episode the other day. 

We were heading into town to do some shopping at several different places. For absolutely no reason that I can think of, I started getting an uncomfortable erection (uncomfortable due to sitting in truck for an hour + tighter pants). The wife noticed, and acted like it was turning her on. Made a comment about "your going to have a very nice night" (paraphrasing). 

Fast forward throughout the day, the night turns into our typical night, which has very little "us" intimacy - maybe I give her a backrub, try and nuzzle/kiss her but little else. When we go to bed (very late), I don't feel like I'm doing anything different, but she makes a comment about me being frustrated. I honestly was a little. She then goes on about how things change throughout the day, and it was the same thing that I didn't "currently" have an erection that she was no longer in the mood. In the end, I feel guilty for "getting my hopes up", and even wanting her. 

What I don't understand is that we(men)/I are required to validate the woman's feelings all the time. However, when it comes to mine, I can't even suffer in silence on my own feeling unwanted. I have to not even think/feel that way. It starts to make me feel like a non-person. That I am not an equal, and anything that might make her feel bad or guilty must be crushed out of me. The flip side is that if I withdraw physically and stop being lovey with her, she gets upset as well. So I MUST do things that excite me and make me want her more, but if she decides that she's not interested night after night after night (or day after day with no kids around), I'm not even allowed to feel upset, even if she flat out said something was going to happen. 

I feel very lost in it all right now (have for a while). I have body issues (I am overweight by at least 20 lbs, but don't think I'm gross by any means), so I don't feel very attractive (I know this is MY problem-and I am working on it). I also don't feel that she is really interested in our sexual relationship, although she tries to accommodate me (meaning she won't flat out say "no"). I have gotten the "hurry up and get this done" before. As I've seen in many other threads, it appears that she does consider our sex life, but it is after everything else. I would say we average 2-3 times a week, don't ever really go beyond 1 week without. I know -so what am I complaining about? I don't think she wants ME. I think she has natural sexual urges, and if I'm there I might be the recipient... if I'm not she'll take care of it herself. I feel irrelevant to the situation. As well as inferior to her little friend. Worse: I feel that those feelings aren't allowed to matter, and that I shouldn't have them in the first place. 

Thoughts?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Not only should you not feel bad for being disappointed, but you should be honest and tell her. Even if it makes her upset. Especially if it makes her upset. Why should she get off scott free while you suffer?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I don't know. The indignation with which she responds to such situations automatically makes me think I'm in the wrong. As I do any time I feel like she feels "pressure" to be with me on any sexual level.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I don't know. The indignation with which she responds to such situations automatically makes me think I'm in the wrong. As I do any time I feel like she feels "pressure" to be with me on any sexual level.


"I know this upsets you, but these are my feelings" is a great response to her.

Is she allowed to voice her frustration when she is disappointed that you did or did not do something?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> "I know this upsets you, but these are my feelings" is a great response to her.
> 
> Is she allowed to voice her frustration when she is disappointed that you did or did not do something?


Of course. But she's never "frustrated" sexually, so I think she considers it a whole different realm. Most of any discussions we have had end up with her proclaiming me putting "pressure" on her, to either have more sex or orgasm, which I recognize as counterproductive. What kills me is that I'm not doing anything, or talking, or being passive-agressive, I'm just a bit bummed because what was suggested didn't happen.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Of course. But she's never "frustrated" sexually, so I think she considers it a whole different realm. Most of any discussions we have had end up with her proclaiming me putting "pressure" on her, to either have more sex or orgasm, which I recognize as counterproductive. What kills me is that I'm not doing anything, or talking, or being passive-agressive, I'm just a bit bummed because what was suggested didn't happen.


Does not matter the reason why. If she can voice her disappointment, then so can you. That needs to be made clear.

As for the pressure, you did not pressure her to make the leading comment in the car that caused your disappointment. She did that on her own, and needs to own that. Does this occur often? Does she give you a rain check in those situations and follow through?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Does she suggest that "more" will happen at some later time, and not follow through? Fairly often. Would she if I "pushed" the issue? Yes. I find the thought of "duty" sex or its equivalent terribly depressing, and do my best to avoid it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Does she suggest that "more" will happen at some later time, and not follow through? Fairly often. Would she if I "pushed" the issue? Yes. I find the thought of "duty" sex or its equivalent terribly depressing, and do my best to avoid it.


That is a big issue right there. She is being dishonest in a fashion. It should not be about "giving" you duty sex - it should be about her recognizing that you two 

One thing to consider is whether your actions are consistent with your words. If you are saying this is a problem, but doing the same acts of kindness, she is receiving a mixed message. Like most humans, she is picking the one that is easiest for her. 

So consider acting in a way that is consistent with how you feel. If she is ignoring your needs, then stop being lovely-dovey and doing all the stuff you do because you love her. When she asks why, be honest in a calm manner. Make clear that since she does not view your needs as important, you have to focus more on you. Because of that, you have less time to attend to her.


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## pepper7 (Apr 2, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Just a question I had in my mind after an minor episode the other day.
> 
> We were heading into town to do some shopping at several different places. For absolutely no reason that I can think of, I started getting an uncomfortable erection (uncomfortable due to sitting in truck for an hour + tighter pants). The wife noticed, and acted like it was turning her on. Made a comment about "your going to have a very nice night" (paraphrasing).
> 
> ...


Crap. You made me feel bad. I've done this many times but honestly not with the intent of getting out of sex later. I very much enjoy flirting/teasing/playing around and talking about sex throughout the day but at the end of the day sometimes I've just forgotten. I haven't forgotten him or his needs (well I guess I have but that wasn't my intent) it's just that the moments have passed and now I'm in my pj's.....My husband actually brought this up to me once and I felt awful. I truly didn't think about how it was affecting him - I've never been one of those people who uses sex as a "weapon" so it honestly just never crossed my mind. 

I've been much better about this but it's hard because sometimes I really do just want to play and flirt. I'll tease him in the am with a few below the belt kisses (is there lingo I'm supposed to be using in here? I'm not really sure how adult we all want to be, lol....) but that's it and then go to work for the day. I find it builds up the sexual tension and I enjoy that explosion of want when you finally do have sex. 

Could that be a possibility? 

Or maybe she is missing something and doesn't realize it. Is there any chance she's wanting (or maybe really needing) you to just TAKE her? Sometimes that helps 

You mentioned you have children. Can you plan a sex vaca? Just for a day? Park kids off with someone you can trust and book a hotel (for a day it wont cost too much) and order in room service (or delivery or bring your own awesome food from the market like a picnic) with lots of goodies. 

Sometimes you just need a good reminder of how great it can be so you _*want *_to do it as opposed to "_just _doing it" because it's mid way through the week.............Those are my only thoughts, good luck!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

This is one where NMMNG helped me. Letting go of outcomes, covert contracts and “bull moose”. I gave up ‘expecting’ her to maintain arousal until bedtime just because she eluded to it. Always led to disappointment. 

So, I consider how I am in the moments; Bull moose crashing through the brush instead of plotting my future. React to my surroundings instead of trying to morph and direct them to my will. 

I would have tried something in the truck... accepted failure due to circumstances (be realistic), but at least had some adult fun with it and enjoyed that moment. And then just let the afternoon and evening be whatever it wanted to be enjoying those moments. Over thinking like it’s a chess game was a big problem I had. 

Whether or not she jumps my bones that night doesn’t dictate how I feel. I’ll remember the day and those good moments that did happen instead of being focused on what didn’t happen and feeling ripped off.. So I’ll happily drift off into sleep now instead of dwelling on frustrations of a unfulfilled fantasy I thought should have happened.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

pepper7 said:


> Crap. You made me feel bad. I've done this many times but honestly not with the intent of getting out of sex later. I very much enjoy flirting/teasing/playing around and talking about sex throughout the day but at the end of the day sometimes I've just forgotten. I haven't forgotten him or his needs (well I guess I have but that wasn't my intent) it's just that the moments have passed and now I'm in my pj's.....My husband actually brought this up to me once and I felt awful. I truly didn't think about how it was affecting him - I've never been one of those people who uses sex as a "weapon" so it honestly just never crossed my mind.
> 
> I've been much better about this but it's hard because sometimes I really do just want to play and flirt. I'll tease him in the am with a few below the belt kisses (is there lingo I'm supposed to be using in here? I'm not really sure how adult we all want to be, lol....) but that's it and then go to work for the day. I find it builds up the sexual tension and I enjoy that explosion of want when you finally do have sex.
> 
> ...


I do take her on occasion - but a significant amount of time it ends up being "just for me". Other times I get frustrated because I don't seem to be part of the equation. If we're going to bed, and she feels "in the mood", we'll do something. If not - nothing I do will make a difference. It will usually include some form of reading or watching porn, lately a 50/50 chance a toy will be involved.
I've asked several times in the past months/years for a "sex marathon" day, something set aside for just us to be intimate. She always says "we can do that, if you want". And then we always have "lots of things we NEED to do" that day. As I work rotating shiftwork, we end up with lots of days with no kids and the house to ourselves - normally that means we sleep in and do work around the house/farm. 
Don't get me wrong. I love some teasing. It doesn't always have to lead ANYWHERE. But she knows what it does to me, and 9 times out of 10 makes a verbal statement of more later, instead of just being "in the moment" like she claims later.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Racer said:


> This is one where NMMNG helped me. Letting go of outcomes, covert contracts and “bull moose”. I gave up ‘expecting’ her to maintain arousal until bedtime just because she eluded to it. Always led to disappointment.
> 
> So, I consider how I am in the moments; Bull moose crashing through the brush instead of plotting my future. React to my surroundings instead of trying to morph and direct them to my will.
> 
> ...


I get you. I have trouble with that on a feelings level - not on a control level. If she doesn't want me, I don't WANT to do anything (for the most part - yes sadly occasionally I get selfish and just do it anyway). She swears she always wants me, but rarely initiates, and when she does its the same MO as her masturbation, which has been a repeated issue throughout our marriage. I feel that it is HER sex life, and then OUR sex life, and in both she escapes into fantasy and vibrator play and I'm just the guy plugging the hole.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Any chance she just doesn't enjoy sex with you? Sorry if that is harsh but since she uses toys she clearly has a sex drive. Whether it's her own hangups or issues with you I would try asking her if there's anything you can do for her sexually. Make it clear to her that you're willing to hear and address anything even if you don't like the answer. Men can get their feelings hurt if women tell them they're not enjoying the sex, but a lot of men really don't know how to please women (porn does nothing for this, in fact porn would have you believe that women are satisfied by all kinds of things that don't really work) and a lot of women have hangups about asking for what they want. You strike me as someone that would get his feelings hurt and that might prevent her from having an honest conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Any chance she just doesn't enjoy sex with you? Sorry if that is harsh but since she uses toys she clearly has a sex drive. Whether it's her own hangups or issues with you I would try asking her if there's anything you can do for her sexually. Make it clear to her that you're willing to hear and address anything even if you don't like the answer. Men can get their feelings hurt if women tell them they're not enjoying the sex, but a lot of men really don't know how to please women (porn does nothing for this, in fact porn would have you believe that women are satisfied by all kinds of things that don't really work) and a lot of women have hangups about asking for what they want. You strike me as someone that would get his feelings hurt and that might prevent her from having an honest conversation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's the thrust of my worries. But she seems to enjoy it when we do do it, just frequently requires a toy to get to her "O". Other times not so much. Last night was such a night: just a few minutes on top and she got hers. And while I might not be the best lover (or far from it  ) I do know when she gets off. I think I communicate well, and she frequently requests certain things/changes/etc, so I don't think she has a problem telling me what she wants. I just don't think I have anything to do with her arousal.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Don't get me wrong. I love some teasing. It doesn't always have to lead ANYWHERE. But she knows what it does to me, and 9 times out of 10 makes a verbal statement of more later, instead of just being "in the moment" like she claims later.


If that is true, you really need to detach from those statements. Recognize that they have no meaning. For whatever reason, the statement has no bearing on what will actually happen that evening, so treat them accordingly. If you can ignore them, do so (I think this preferable). If not, then make clear you don't believe them so she does not need to say them anymore.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> If that is true, you really need to detach from those statements. Recognize that they have no meaning. For whatever reason, the statement has no bearing on what will actually happen that evening, so treat them accordingly. If you can ignore them, do so (I think this preferable). If not, then make clear you don't believe them so she does not need to say them anymore.


That is where I am at as well. Generally I can't completely contain myself no matter how little credence I actually give it: I just desire my wife so much that any little positive sign gets me going. I then generally battle myself getting "my hopes up", and if that is evident on my face she gets mad because she knows EXACTLY what I'm thinking. Actually SAYING something about those feelings is along the lines of the direct subject of the original post: I don't think I'm "allowed" to have feelings like that. I'm supposed to take what's given and be grateful.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Do you talk about fantasies and flirt with each other?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Do you talk about fantasies and flirt with each other?


Up and down on that. I would say frequently we do, but I cut it back a lot when I start feeling either guilty or unwanted. Hard to flirt when you feel like/get called a perv for wanting your own wife.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Actually SAYING something about those feelings is along the lines of the direct subject of the original post: I don't think I'm "allowed" to have feelings like that. I'm supposed to take what's given and be grateful.


You are certainly allowed to have your feelings, just as she is. Don't apologize for them.

Perhaps it is better if you call her on those statements. Sounds like you need to stand up for your self on this, as well as some other areas, if I had to guess.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I don't apologize. Not for my feelings. I'm just angry/hurt/amazed that someone would take the tact that you aren't "allowed" to feel a certain way, or ever be disappointed. 

I probably could use standing up in some areas. I'm also sure that she would say I am selfish in some areas, controlling in others... how do you know when you really have a good balance? I wish it wasn't even something I had to worry about, that we could just "be". I wouldn't even mind feeling disappointed occasionally, or down (a little less often would be nice). But to feel like those thoughts/feelings aren't acceptable is both diminishing me from a control/oppression standpoint as well as a rejection of ... I don't know... the basic "Me"?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I get you. I have trouble with that on a feelings level - not on a control level. If she doesn't want me, I don't WANT to do anything (for the most part - yes sadly occasionally I get selfish and just do it anyway). She swears she always wants me, but rarely initiates, and when she does its the same MO as her masturbation, which has been a repeated issue throughout our marriage. I feel that it is HER sex life, and then OUR sex life, and in both she escapes into fantasy and vibrator play and I'm just the guy plugging the hole.


My wife is the same way about never initiating. She’s what I’d call a lazy, insecure lover. Essentially she dumps our entire sex life onto my shoulders as the ‘responsible one’ for it like it’s some delegation of chores. Thus also enjoys getting to blame me if it isn’t “all she believes it should be”. All it is.. it’s being lazy and not taking ownership (or responsibility) of this sex life. And you are right... it feels like she doesn’t want me at all. Emphasize “actions, not words” because she might want you, just fails to provide the corresponding action.... (which also erodes trust because it feels like a lie)

The duty sex was also an issue where it feed that ‘unwanted’ feeling in me. A ‘mistake’ I used to do was try really hard to make it an earth-shaking experience for her so she’d want more. Lol... a fantasy in my own head. I learned though.

I decided to make her work for it. I got to the point where if I was the only one maintaining “our” sex life, then I should enjoy it on my terms. I just learned to be a selfish lover. My favorite position, no ‘mental tricks’ to make it last longer, just rough, hard sex and a large climax just like I like it. Then, I was done regardless of whether she did or not. She started complaining about being “used”. I just made it clear that being “used” is all she offered. If she wanted something out of sex with me, then she’d better learn how to take control and ownership for her own part of sex or she’d find herself frustrated. She’s the one who made it clear that she was having sex for my benefit.... I just accepted her terms literally. 

The result; She’s become more aggressive in the sack to reach her climax knowing I will get up when I’m done. I still have to initiate mostly, but I am fine with that when it becomes a passionate experience versus that old ambivalent feel. She (and I) have become regular ‘teasers’ throughout the day. So... that night it doesn’t take much of a move before she’s all over me. Even the “special menu” has been brought back into play. And yes... I still care whether or not she gets off, I’m not a monster. I just ‘play it by ear’ whether this sex is for my benefit or something she’s really into as well and treat it as such.

It takes time... and some emotional pain to both, but it can be solved. Just be clear throughout that she is what you want and desire and that is all you want to feel to. You can’t “reason” this thing... you need that emotional response out of her. And when it started to happen, I noticed the solo-performances by both of us really dropped down.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Racer said:


> My wife is the same way about never initiating. She’s what I’d call a lazy, insecure lover. Essentially she dumps our entire sex life onto my shoulders as the ‘responsible one’ for it like it’s some delegation of chores. Thus also enjoys getting to blame me if it isn’t “all she believes it should be”. All it is.. it’s being lazy and not taking ownership (or responsibility) of this sex life. And you are right... it feels like she doesn’t want me at all. Emphasize “actions, not words” because she might want you, just fails to provide the corresponding action.... (which also erodes trust because it feels like a lie)
> 
> The duty sex was also an issue where it feed that ‘unwanted’ feeling in me. A ‘mistake’ I used to do was try really hard to make it an earth-shaking experience for her so she’d want more. Lol... a fantasy in my own head. I learned though.
> 
> ...


It does sound similar. I don't think she has ever criticized my performance. I'm not sure that's a positive though. She has adjusted/changed things up while we did it, which makes me think she is comfortable making it better for her. 

I have 2 problems with your approach. I can rarely bring myself to make it "all about me". Call it beta, call it whatever, but I feel TERRIBLE afterwards. I get little gratification out of it and considering the emotional toll, I'd rather just suffer.

Secondly, and this is perhaps the worse part for me: I think if I just used it to take care of me, that would be just fine for her, even if she considered it selfish of me she would just do more solo if she wasn't satisfied. This would just make the situation worse, and may just break me.

The entire thing is an emotional/mental screwjob. Can you imagine crying while trying to masturbate (unsuccessfully)? My wife is a gorgeous woman who is very sensual -just not very sexual. I'm constantly exposed to her body, her touch, but if I want anything more than the tease, I can expect a minimum of a twinge of guilt, with up to a full blown "how dare you" guilt trip. Then on top of it, figuring that when I'm on nights, even if we just had sex (complete with her orgasming - maybe I'm retarded and she IS just faking, only she knows), she'll most likely pull out her "real" lover and go to town. 

A cop out she used to pull out was that she couldn't go to sleep without me home so used it to get sleepy. Of course, when I'm home that same tactic doesn't ever come to mind, even when she can't sleep. I shouldn't say never: it does, and when it does, she has to read stories or watch porn to "get in the mood", I can participate or just stay out of the way.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I probably could use standing up in some areas. I'm also sure that she would say I am selfish in some areas, controlling in others... how do you know when you really have a good balance? I wish it wasn't even something I had to worry about, that we could just "be". I wouldn't even mind feeling disappointed occasionally, or down (a little less often would be nice). But to feel like those thoughts/feelings aren't acceptable is both diminishing me from a control/oppression standpoint as well as a rejection of ... I don't know... the basic "Me"?


This part is your problem. She can only diminish you if you allow it. Ignore when she states that you are not allowed to have a particular feeling. You need to detach and be confident in your basic "me" regardless of what she thinks.

I suggest you read No More Mr. Nice Guy. I think you will pick up some good suggestions.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I've read MMSL and NMMNG. Some of it I liked, some I didn't. Not sure it really did anything for me, but perhaps I should read them again.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I've read MMSL and NMMNG. Some of it I liked, some I didn't. Not sure it really did anything for me, but perhaps I should read them again.


Read NMMNG again. You are too reactive to her and her emotions. You appear to get your self worth based on the scraps she gives you. That needs to stop.



> The entire thing is an emotional/mental screwjob. Can you imagine crying while trying to masturbate (unsuccessfully)? My wife is a gorgeous woman who is very sensual -just not very sexual. I'm constantly exposed to her body, her touch, but if I want anything more than the tease, I can expect a minimum of a twinge of guilt, with up to a full blown "how dare you" guilt trip.


Is it possible this is a control thing for her? That keeping you guessing feeds her needs?



> Then on top of it, figuring that when I'm on nights, even if we just had sex (complete with her orgasming - maybe I'm retarded and she IS just faking, only she knows), she'll most likely pull out her "real" lover and go to town.


Please clarify. Are you saying that after sex with you, she then goes to use her toy to masterbate?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Read NMMNG again. You are too reactive to her and her emotions. You appear to get your self worth based on the scraps she gives you. That needs to stop.
> I agree. How to uncondition myself is what is not clear. Help?
> Is it possible this is a control thing for her? That keeping you guessing feeds her needs?
> I suppose that is possible, but I lean towards simple uninterest but likes the rest of our lives together. I honestly think she is perfectly happy/satisfied masturbating for her sexual needs, and "our" sex life happens so she doesn't feel guilty/like a bad wife.
> ...


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Does she suggest that "more" will happen at some later time, and not follow through? Fairly often. Would she if I "pushed" the issue? Yes. I find the thought of "duty" sex or its equivalent terribly depressing, and do my best to avoid it.


I feel your pain. I've been in that type of situation probably more times than I can count. For the past year+, there's been a legitimate reason for her lack of drive/follow-through. But, it still doesn't ease the sting of feeling like you're an annoying sex-maniac for wanting to be with your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Grayson said:


> I feel your pain. I've been in that type of situation probably more times than I can count. For the past year+, there's been a legitimate reason for her lack of drive/follow-through. But, it still doesn't ease the sting of feeling like you're an annoying sex-maniac for wanting to be with your wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In my previous marriage, I would say I would have been classified as LD. I think it was still 1-2/week, but would have been fine with 1/2week or longer. I just wasn't that into my XW physically.

My current wife drives me semi-insane with attraction, even after 10 yrs together. She is my "ideal" everything with the exception of wanting ME (or making me feel that way anyway).

I don't "feel" on my own like I'm a sex-maniac. She directly says it or implies it. If we've had any kind of sexual activity in the preceeding oh... week or so, if I make a comment, touch her, kiss her suggestively (more than a peck), she pulls away and gives me a jokey/chiding "dirty man". If I continue, I will get a sour face with some form of don't pressure me/don't make it too sexual. If I do anything beyond that, I will get full on sex-maniac comments, the discussion about how "men and women's bodies are different", the whole 9 yards. 

Of course, woe betide me if I get upset and make any comments about how she takes care of herself...

The further problem with that little predicament being that I have no idea how often it happens anymore. She always hid it, always lied about it when confronted, rarely "really" admitted it even when I provided direct proof. Always the same response: lie initially, go silent, then get mad, throw the toys out, say she'll never use it again. Within days it would be right back within reach of the bed again. I would bet money it has had more access to her woman parts than I have. But that is to be expected I suppose, in this scenario. 

And of course I made the classic mistake of showing her my hand a little bit each time so she covers her tracks better each time. I think at this point I'd have to go full spy mode to know... and its almost better to assume she does but have the possibility that she might not be be a possibility than to go digging and prove she's still more sexually into an inanimate object than me. I suppose it isn't truly inanimate, is it? That's the great thing about...

So she would say if we discussed it that she hasn't done it in years, etc etc. Which of course she has said each and every time I have caught her. Which leads me to question anything regarding it, naturally.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

long ramble... sorry. It’s a complex issue.


ET1SSJonota said:


> I have 2 problems with your approach. I can rarely bring myself to make it "all about me". Call it beta, call it whatever, but I feel TERRIBLE afterwards. I get little gratification out of it and considering the emotional toll, I'd rather just suffer.


I get that.... I did the same; for about a decade. I’m just trying to get you to avoid the long term effects of suffering emotionally like that. Sex for me now is sort of ‘messed up’ emotionally. While my wife is now an active participant in our sex life.... in me there are very ugly feelings of resentment, rage, regrets, etc. all along with the good stuff. Sex itself becomes the trigger of a long history... and sadly associated my wife. It is my experience with her, not others. You are on that path too. Don’t you already feel terrible, guilt and shame? So... you won’t feel any worse; Just a different sort of worse. But by doing it on your terms, your way... it’s not as bad as you might fear. It’s sort of fun to tell the truth... just that guilt that you did indeed use her... hence why I term it as “accepting her terms that she is doing this for me versus herself”.. Helps with that guilt.

The rest... I get that too. That frustration of sleeping next to your fantasy woman and knowing she doesn’t think like that about you. What you need to understand is right now, you are in a emotionally reactive state to whatever she is or isn’t doing and it is now a big deal. It has to turn around inside you and you need to regain control of your own thoughts and emotions.

What you’ve tried so far isn’t working. So work on you to raise your attraction; DO NOT USE WHAT YOU THINK SHE WOULD BE ATTRACTED TO (a classic mistake). You know what makes guys attractive. Look in the mirror and work on those things until you see some attractive guy. She’s going to see it to, or not... you can’t control that. This is all about you changing your perception until you feel you are a prize and ANY woman would be attracted to whom you’ve become. Listen to yourself instead of others. With luck, other women will respond too... then things get interesting because your wife doesn’t currently see you as ‘desirable’ and probably hasn’t put though into temptations that come your way. She’ll focus back on you because... well... she knows how she is sexually with you and that it isn’t “great”. She just didn’t consider the ramifications of how you might change your perception of whether or not she is a good lover.

Think of it this way... your wife is your fantasy and desire right? Yet... she isn’t doing what you want or how you think she should be and is perfectly fine doing stuff you don’t like. How is that possible that you still desire her? Your thoughts are along the lines that if you do things to torque off your spouse, she’d have even less desire... but that isn’t the case is it when the situation is flipped? It doesn’t work so simply. I guarantee she see’s herself as sexual, just not you. You need to see and feel yourself as sexual rather than unwanted. 

When your wife starts seeing herself as an option for you rather than a given, she’ll start changing something.... Just like you are. That’s the real scary part.... you can’t control it. What you can do is re-assure that today, in this moment, you are with her. And just let go of outcomes and the fear of “what if”.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Racer said:


> ... in me there are very ugly feelings of resentment, rage, regrets, etc. all along with the good stuff.
> 
> I would say that I don't have any of the anger over the sex - I have anger over crushing my feelings or any expression thereof. For the sex...incredible sadness.
> 
> ...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

> And just let go of outcomes and the fear of “what if”.
> I honestly don't think outcomes are what drives me to be so torn up. I think it has to do with the combination of the teasing/outcomes with refusal to let me cope in my own way. I know we are on different levels of attraction (assuming she has ANY for me), so don't expect her to keep up with me. Why can't I be sad about that? Why can't I miss 7 times a day (we had many marathons our first years together - not in 6 yrs of so) every now and then? Especially if I keep it to myself and don't say a word to her?


Sure you are. You are afraid of how she might react... thus do nothing or something "safe" rather than risk a potential negative outcome. 

Thing is... it is still a negative outcome because of the pity party you throw for yourself as you try to understand why she doesn’t see you ‘that way’. The conclusions you come to aren’t good are they? Also note how you are still 'hooked into' placing her thoughts at the center of how you feel about yourself. Another note; You aren't a mind-reader... the reality is you really don't know what she's thinking, so this is all still just you writing script response based on your own thoughts. 

Trust me on this one. Give up worrying or fretting about how she or anyone else judges you. Look in the mirror and work on how you perceive yourself and where you think you need work. Whether it works out or not really isn't important IF you are being true to yourself and doing what you think you should be doing. Find yourself and everything becomes a ton less distressful. You need a perception shift...

A lovely quote from Alice in Wonderland dealing with perceptions:


> “'And how do you know that you're mad?'
> 'To begin with,' said the Cat, 'a dog's not mad. You grant that?'
> 'I suppose so,' said Alice.
> 'Well then,' the Cat went on, 'you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad.'


The cat accepts by a dog’s standards, he’s “this way”.



> 'I call it purring, not growling,' said Alice.”


Accept that from a cat’s perspective, things are much different. 

You can control what she sees. You can’t control how she interprets those impressions. So stop trying.... See yourself from your own perspective and work on it. Until you do, you are holding yourself up to someone else’s standards that may not fit.




> The "what if" is another thing. Eventually, she'll meet someone who kicks that sex drive in for something real. Where am I then?


In my shoes dealing with a SA, a decade of duty sex, and a wife who felt “entitled” just because she had a title of “Mrs.”. That path is a lot more unpleasant than words can express (for both of us). "If only I had" are words that haunt me and why I give advice to those who I feel might be on our path when change could make a difference without deeper traumas......


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Holy Mouthful! Thank you for your in depth response. Let's see what I can do with it.


FrenchFry said:


> So, I notice my husband's erections all of the time. Comment on them, enjoy them and appreciate them. However, I also realize that not every erection is about me at all and unless I am directed to realize that it is in another manner, I leave it alone.
> Her noticing/my spontaneous erections are rare. I feel sexually defeated/undesired. It was actually an unusual situation that I cannot explain. ***note*** I rarely masturbate
> 
> You fast forward through the day, was there any further escalation?
> ...


All in all thank you for taking the time to break it down like that. Definitely some words to contemplate in there for me.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Racer, I am working on myself, for myself. I want to get out of my funk... and as I've said before quite honestly I'm sure there are a ton of guys who would love to be in my shoes. I feel like I'm spirally downwards and it is definitely affecting how I feel towards my wife.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Hah, sorry for the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Girl on Girl. Nonconsent. So yup... can't really do those. We have roleplayed nonconsent a little. I can only handle so much (as can she), and it made little difference (slightly better that session... no change afterwards).


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Therapist for me or for the wife? I pretty much can't bring up any of these topics anymore. Same road every time, putting more guilt on me for even trying to improve things. As noted: to her, or sex life is perfect. She can say she gives me the "average" at least, and gets to have it her way. What's to make better, in her view?

I will work on getting myself to be greedy, but I know I have already been conditioned substantially. I feel even LESS like a man every time. The last time was a "pick me up" because we didn't use a toy, it went quick, and it was all for her. 

It is nice to know that I'm not unfounded, even nicer to have someone validate my feelings. Heck, I think if my wife allowed me to vent/have my feelings, without putting them down or demeaning them, that would be a positive step. As it is, it makes me a non-person. I'm there for all the things she does like (which honestly seems to be everything but sex). Anything she doesn't like, she simply doesn't accept. Must be nice.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> You absolutely deserve to be heard and validated and I'd be pretty hardline on it if she really believes that everything is okay. Don't allow her to make you feel guilty, she is the one who isn't willing to talk and you absolutely deserve communication in a married sex life.


I know I said it before, but it is absolutely critical that you align your actions with your words. Based on your last few posts, I am almost she will listen to the message that she wants to here. So if you say things are a problem, but then continue all of your same actions for her, she will "hear" that everything is fine.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Update....

So, what 6 weeks ago or so here I was... and as I figured would eventually happen she went "digging" for my posts (despite are her high horsedness about "spying"). Confronted me with them in her standard method which is to make them as big a deal as possible, throw around the "D" word, attempt to cancel major life plans in progress... generally drama it all up.
We had what was pretty much our best/deepest conversation about the subjects in our 10 years. It was tense, it was emotional, but it didn't escalate beyond control, and I don't think it got as "ugly" as it usually does.
She still denies my viewpoint on pretty much everything. We had 2-3 weeks of pretty frequent, good, "regular" sex. She waited til the next day and threw the toys away while I wasn't home. 
About 3 weeks in it dropped drastically... just as I described before how there would be a few days after big fights. I suppose kudos for her for the "extra" long effort. Several days into the lull she makes a comment about wishing "I wasn't weird about things..." Hard to cite exactly why, but I'm 99% sure that was in reference to her wanting some, but wanting her toys (which were gone) - so naturally absolutely nothing occurred then. 
Since then, back to the usual fare. Once or twice a week. The interesting part was her #1 "reason" for our limited sex life, namely the children, have all been gone since mid-May. Yet here we are. Mmmhhmm. 
Two days ago we decide to have a somewhat lazy day. Take the boat out. Catch some sun, get out in the water a bit, etc. I tried to "play" with her on the boat - I wasn't stopped but that was all that happened. Several times throughout the evening I tried to be physical with her, wrapping her up, being suggestive, etc. Then I said screw it and flat out said, "I would like to have sex tonight". Not once, but twice. Naturally, the night ended with her watching TV and playing Candy Crush and all but ignoring me. 
I woke about 130am after a nightmare. I won't go into details, but it is a recurring dream that I have maybe a few times a year, is highly sexual in nature, and plays into the fears that I have highlighted here.
I tried for about an hour to go back to sleep to no avail. I was also desperately aroused, and after the evening with my wife I felt MORE than rejected. I got into the shower and "took care of it", along with shaving and getting clean from my sweaty dream.
The next day the wife is weird with me. Admits later to assuming that I had taken care of it in the shower, and that it made her sad, then angry, then sad. I'll come more to it later, but WHAT THE F??? It was VERY clear she wasn't interested, not in the least little bit. And yet, despite all day me showing that I wanted it... nothing. But it's still terrible that I saved her the bother? 
She mostly let it go... that day though, I thought we had put it behind us... I guess not.
Tonight, naturally right at bed time/sleep time, she starts firing out little witty/nasty comments about it. Calling me a hypocrite. Asking me what the dream was about. I tell her that I don't feel comfortable talking about my dreams and feelings, because of how she is talking to me and feeling attacked. I have NO IDEA why, but this apparently induced her to attack even more. 
I'm now fairly certain about several things, based on comments she made, and "summing" the situation up.
Our sex life sucks. Not just for me... clearly for her too. Quite possibly because she had to go almost a month without her toy. What the hell do I do with that???
That no amount of logic will work. I was lambasted for not "waking her up". I said I tried numerous times throughout the day. She responded with " you didn't say you "needed" it". WTF? Then it was "my issue" that doing so was degrading to me and made it terrible for me. 
Then came the attacks because I have only gone to 3 counseling sessions this year. (Which, tonight, equated to none) She however, has had several more. Each and every one of which she has come home from to proclaim what is wrong with what "I" do, and ways I might be able to fix it...
I have no idea how to respond that won't just escalate it, so I basically bite my tongue.... she passes out and here I am, 3 hours later, still wide awake despite heavy dose of muscle relaxants and alcohol. 
At least she only has to survive 2 more nights with just me...


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Sorry if I've repeated someone here.
> 
> I have certainly learned how important sexual expressions are to men. It usually isn't intentional but you DO need to tell her "When you say 'later' I REALLY think you mean we will later. So all day I think about us, how sexy you are and I'm so looking forward to that feeling of being so close with you and them *bam* - letdown. So don't make a promise you won't keep, ok?"
> 
> ...


I have done just that, multiple times. I have asked she not insinuate things will happen unless she intends to follow through. I have told her how it makes me feel. No changes.


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