# Experiment



## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

I have a theory that withholding sex is purely and solely a selfish power grab by a woman who is utterly bored in her relationship. That is, not that she is necessarily married to a boring man, but that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that that man is totally and utterly committed to her and to the relationship. 

So here's my experimental question, what would happen if the husband treated his wallet the way the wife treats sex and intimacy? What if the rules of the wallet were (unbeknownst to the wife) exactly those that the wife used to deny, delay, and prevent sex, intimacy, and affection?

I'm thinking, close the joint checking, shut down the joint visa, redistribute all joint investments, and put the wife on a cash only financial basis. Probably wreak hell on the marriage at first, but would she learn from this turn-about of the rules?

Let me see:

Wife's rule: No sex at night it gives me insomnia.
My rule: No money/spending at night it gives me insomnia.

Wife's rule: No sex in the morning I didn't sleep well.
My rule; No money/spending in the morning I didn't get laid.

Wife's rule: All you want is sex so I have to stop any and all intimacy or affection.
My rule: We never have sex or intimacy so I have to stop all and any spending.

You get the idea....wonder what other rules there should be and what the rest of you think about this idea?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Honestly its nuts. So ridiculous punishment is how you resolve sex issues?

You better talk to the guy who pays for a certain quota each month and compare notes.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Well I am divorced, and I didn't have this problem, but I will tell you, right now, I see a very big problem here. 

No sex? Well, I give you no money to do anything with. 

I come home later in the week, to an empty fridge because wife didn't have the money to do the grocery shopping. Because she did the shopping, so I'd be in big trouble...


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Well is there a better way to help her understand how cruel her behavior is? Talking about it for 18 years has failed utterly.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Well is there a better way to help her understand how cruel her behavior is? Talking about it for 18 years has failed utterly.


Yes.

Ask her why she no longer enjoys sex with you?

Ask her why is it bad for her?

Ask her what can you do to make it better and is she mad at you?

Get those three questions answered and you will know what to do.
Don't let her squirm out of answering them honestly and fully.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Oh no I didn't say no money, cash-basis, $250/week for gas and groceries. Everything else she has to ask for.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

If you hadn't had sex in 18 years, your marriage has much bigger issues than you are willing to admit.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Depends. If this is what you have come to accept... not sure there is a way to get past it. If it is bad enough you are willing to put the relationship on the line, that most likely that is what it is going to take.
Clearly she is in full control of the sex. As you note yourself - she knows this, as well as your ultimate commitment. So if you want anything to change - so do those things.
Have you asked if she cares if you get it somewhere else, since she doesn't seem to care about taking care of your needs? Or want to use it for herself?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Juicer said:


> If you hadn't had sex in 18 years, your marriage has much bigger issues than you are willing to admit.


Didn't say that Juicer, we have sex about once a month, all the time in between is excuses, obfuscations and delaying tactics.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Yes.
> 
> Ask her why she no longer enjoys sex with you?
> 
> ...


See, this is where I disagree with about half the folks on here (my guess). I think that trying to talk about it just legitimizes the behavior, it is NOT legitimate. Nothing I have done in 18 years could make this cruelty ok, ever, under any skewed viewpoint. 

Besides, we've talked plenty, it NEVER makes anything better. I'm sick to death of talking and trying to jump through all the moving hoops. That's why I wonder what would happen if I just turned it all around on her, my guess is she flips out and leaves or files for divorce within a month.

By the way, nice job of putting all the blame right on little ole me. Why is the sex bad for her? Who says its bad? She normally gets more out of it than i do, it's just hell getting her started.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> See, this is where I disagree with about half the folks on here (my guess). I think that trying to talk about it just legitimizes the behavior, it is NOT legitimate. Nothing I have done in 18 years could make this cruelty ok, ever, under any skewed viewpoint.
> 
> Besides, we've talked plenty, it NEVER makes anything better. I'm sick to death of talking and trying to jump through all the moving hoops. That's why I wonder what would happen if I just turned it all around on her, my guess is she flips out and leaves or files for divorce within a month.



Oh no.... the situation is UNACCEPTABLE have you asked her those specific questions yet?

Calmly.

It does not legitimize withholding sex at all its uncovering why.

BTW 12 times a year is not sexless.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Depends. If this is what you have come to accept... not sure there is a way to get past it. If it is bad enough you are willing to put the relationship on the line, that most likely that is what it is going to take.
> Clearly she is in full control of the sex. As you note yourself - she knows this, as well as your ultimate commitment. So if you want anything to change - so do those things.
> Have you asked if she cares if you get it somewhere else, since she doesn't seem to care about taking care of your needs? Or want to use it for herself?


Actually, if I wasn't military I would consider that threat, but she knows I can't and won't, for me it's a crime punishable by extreme loss of rank, pay and retirement. Won't happen in this lifetime.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Oh no.... the situation is UNACCEPTABLE have you asked her those specific questions yet?
> 
> Calmly.
> 
> ...


Well "about once a month", I've gone as long as six months without. To this day have no earthly idea why, all talking about it did was extend the dry spell.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Perhaps she is low drive or no longer has an emotional connection with you or both? Sex (for many, maybe most, women), is about that connection. Without it, there is often little or no interest.


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## thalia (Feb 4, 2012)

If it's been 18 years, then I'm guessing your wife is about 40. I would suggest at first that she have a complete medical exam, checking thyroid and hormone levels, by a dr knowledgeable in bioidentical hormones.

I was pretty LD for the first 18 years of my marriage. That made a DRASTIC turn around when my thyroid and hormones were treated.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

BTW, notice that all of the attention in these comments is on sex, I would live without sex if we could just have some normal affection and intimacy. 

We only have closed mouth kisses, she doesn't like to be hugged or stroked in any way. We had to buy a huge king bed so I wouldn't bother her sleeping and only snuggle for about 3 minutes in the morning right before she jumps out of bed and gets her day on. I feel like I"m married to my pillow.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> BTW, notice that all of the attention in these comments is on sex, I would live without sex if we could just have some normal affection and intimacy.
> 
> We only have closed mouth kisses, she doesn't like to be hugged or stroked in any way. We had to buy a huge king bed so I wouldn't bother her sleeping and only snuggle for about 3 minutes in the morning right before she jumps out of bed and gets her day on. I feel like I"m married to my pillow.


It isn't only sex that's withheld when that emotional connection is lost --- *all *intimacy generally goes.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

And your staying because? Please do not tell me it is because you lover her. If I went six months without there would be papers for my SO to sign.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't know. I'm taking a wild stab at it. Here goes nothing.

Home | The 5 Love Languages®


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Got it, and agree, but here's the point of my "experiment", I'm the only one who gives a crap about this right now. Outside of moving out and heading for divorce I don't seem to have a damn bit of leverage, except that I earn all the $$$ and I don't have to keep that $$$ in a joint anything or give her any more cash than her duties as mommy and housewife demand.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

RClawson said:


> And your staying because? Please do not tell me it is because you lover her. If I went six months without there would be papers for my SO to sign.


Love, hmmm, I remember loving her, I want to still love her. I love my kids, I love our family I love what it represents, most of all I would hate to hurt my kids.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Something else to consider.

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage - Six Session Study (DVD) by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Also, look up "the 180". It's harsh, but maybe it can be adapted for your situation to gently, but firmly make a statement if all else fails. You need to take a stand and be the man she needs. Obviously, you are doing that. She must not see it for some reason. Maybe her definition is different from yours.

The other book you may need is this:

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life

I haven't read it yet, but it has helped many men understand their role and find the man within. It's made a big difference for many here.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You could certainly try your experiment. As long as you are prepared for the fallout. If nothing else, it might open up communication.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

What military would take rank, etc, for divorcing or separating from a spouse?? Or are you thinking just "some on the side"?
Bottom line: sex is important. Clearly quite important to you. Her attitude towards it is incompatible for you. And since it is both unethical and impossible (really) to "make her" want it, then you really have a choice in front of you to leave her and seek someone who is into you that way, or to just keep taking it. You could be honest (without being angry) that just that calculation is taking place frequently now, due to how she treats you.


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> wonder what other rules there should be *and what the rest of you think about this idea?*


It's silly. If you have the time and energy to think up new ways to play games, put it to better use- communicate your needs and feelings and be straightforward, and find out what she needs from you in order to raise her attraction to you. Or leave and attempt to find someone else with whom you can meet each other's needs and act like adults. What do you actually want? If you just want to make her angry or get revenge because you're hurting, and if you want more endless drama and fighting and bad feelings, then yeah ok, make her beg you for money. If you want a loving relationship, either with her or someone else, your 'experiment' is useless. 

also it's 2013 and most women don't care that much about your wallet, unless they've given up their own earning power to raise your kids.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> What military would take rank, etc, for divorcing or separating from a spouse?? Or are you thinking just "some on the side"?
> Bottom line: sex is important. Clearly quite important to you. Her attitude towards it is incompatible for you. And since it is both unethical and impossible (really) to "make her" want it, then you really have a choice in front of you to leave her and seek someone who is into you that way, or to just keep taking it. You could be honest (without being angry) that just that calculation is taking place frequently now, due to how she treats you.


Oh, someone mentioned that I should try threatening to just get some on side. The U.S. military will take rank, pay, etc for committing adultery under the "good order and discipline" code of the UCMJ. If you screw up during the investigation or conduct of the crime, you can even go to prison for various extenuating circumstances. MY DW knows all this, and knows i would never ever risk either, I'm too pretty to go to prison ;-)


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, if you want to punish her and get some revenge, sure, why not cut her off financially. Most likely shell get furious and leave.

There are a couple of men on the boards who have turned sexless marriages around. WorkingOnMe is one. I don't know how he did it exactly, but you could try PMing him.

Most of the sexless marriages I've read about on TAM have never substantially improved.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Oh, someone mentioned that I should try threatening to just get some on side. The U.S. military will take rank, pay, etc for committing adultery under the "good order and discipline" code of the UCMJ. If you screw up during the investigation or conduct of the crime, you can even go to prison for various extenuating circumstances. MY DW knows all this, and knows i would never ever risk either, I'm too pretty to go to prison ;-)


I mentioned something along those lines, but in the end, you can take it all the way to divorce, and then the military will have absolutely no problem with anything. Then there is also the FACT that many many many servicepeople adulterate without repercussions. Not that I'm condoning it. 
As discussed - you need to decide if you're done with being the live in ATM. If not -continue on, as you note yourself, not much is likely to change. IF so - state clearly that you are no longer willing to continue in a loveless marriage, and end it.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Love, hmmm, I remember loving her, I want to still love her. I love my kids, I love our family I love what it represents, most of all I would hate to hurt my kids.



That's nice but it is a fairy tale and you know it. File and wake her up. You do not want to hurt your kids? Please. Teach them something. That is what good fathers do. Explain to them why you are doing what you do when you file. 

What an opportunity? You can keep loving your wife but do you think they do not know what is going on. I love my wife and I do not want to leave her and we are not close to that at this point. My kids do notice that she treats me like dirt sometimes. It has been in incredible opportunity to counsel them about relationships and marriage. 

Our level of intimacy makes me look like Casanova compared to you and your wife but it is far from where I would like it or where it really should be. But six months of nada. Sorry boss but she would be getting served.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

RClawson said:


> That's nice but it is a fairy tale and you know it. File and wake her up. You do not want to hurt your kids? Please. Teach them something. That is what good fathers do. Explain to them why you are doing what you do when you file.
> 
> What an opportunity? You can keep loving your wife but do you think they do not know what is going on. I love my wife and I do not want to leave her and we are not close to that at this point. My kids do notice that she treats me like dirt sometimes. It has been in incredible opportunity to counsel them about relationships and marriage.
> 
> Our level of intimacy makes me look like Casanova compared to you and your wife but it is far from where I would like it or where it really should be. But six months of nada. Sorry boss but she would be getting served.


You know, I think that's the most rational advice I've heard on here. Too much of the advice here seems to just justify the woman's behavior in one way or another.

Like above where someone basically tells me that I need to find out why I'm bad in bed and start with all of my failures as a man.

My real problem, is that I feel trapped by my parenthood, I'm unwilling to put my kids through divorce, even tho I know THIS is damaging them also.

I did MMSL, am doing it, did the 180 which seemed to work for a while or at least partly. I'm probably not sticking to it well enough. Need to restudy, but I guess I'm a sucker, once she starts showing any signs of affection, I get sucked back in. Before I know it, I'm jumping and jiving and she's snapping her damn fingers. Then the abuse begins, rejection, excuses, insulting behavior in front of the kids, and public embarrassment.

I'm a good man, I do get grumpy after a bit of this, but I keep on trying to communicate and work things. I don't deserve this, nobody does, but I've been faithful, provided everything she has ever even hinted at, and I go out of my way to be here.

I even gave up a huge promotion to take an easier job with less responsibility, because I was convinced WE needed it. All I seem to have done is provide her with more opportunity to abuse me.

After my last set of posts ya'll pretty much told me to get a lawyer, get the facts, and file. I think I'm finally convinced that this will never change, she doesn't have it in her to ever see me as anything else but trash that she should be kicking around.

Thanks for the advice folks, know this post started out as a bit of an angry childish rant. I just want a decent life with the woman I fell in love with over 20 years ago, I just don't want to hurt so much anymore.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

OrangeCrush said:


> It's silly. If you have the time and energy to think up new ways to play games, put it to better use- communicate your needs and feelings and be straightforward, and find out what she needs from you in order to raise her attraction to you. Or leave and attempt to find someone else with whom you can meet each other's needs and act like adults. What do you actually want? If you just want to make her angry or get revenge because you're hurting, and if you want more endless drama and fighting and bad feelings, then yeah ok, make her beg you for money. .


Orange, we've been married 18 years, together over 20, I have tried to have rational discussions till I'm blue in the face all I have EVER gotten out of it is stone-walling and even worse behavior. TALKING is NOT the answer! She seems to believe that communication is best left unsaid, there seems to be in her head the idea that IF i really cared about her I "would just know what she needs"....no offense but that's a bunch of stupid Oprah BS....nobody reads minds and some people are really really good at hiding what they're feeling.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> You know, I think that's the most rational advice I've heard on here. Too much of the advice here seems to just justify the woman's behavior in one way or another.
> 
> Like above where someone basically tells me that I need to find out why I'm bad in bed and start with all of my failures as a man.
> 
> ...


On the flipside, if you've resigned yourself to living through this at least until the kids are gone, why not try your experiment? If you're suffering already, and you're just going to deal with it, why not play your own head games?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

.... and you don't listen to her do you? Because you are entitled.

What your wife needs is for you to stop talking and show her what she has been missing namely a sane fun husband. I'm pretty sure you haven't been very fun to be around in her eyes.

If you take the next 6 months and play nice, work on yourself and correct your marital dynamics... things may start to change for both of you.

If you continue what you are doing... things will never change and you will be absolutely miserable.

Its your life and your choice... listen to someone who made it through sexless hell already. Few make it. Be smart. There is no quick fix only a lifelong permanent fix.

My marriage went downhill in Year 16.3 at Year 19.8 its the best its been ever. Been with her for now 24 years... very similar to yours difference is mine is now fixed. Life's great again.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> You know, I think that's the most rational advice I've heard on here. Too much of the advice here seems to just justify the woman's behavior in one way or another. *Anyone that would try to justify her behavior is flat ignorant*
> 
> Like above where someone basically tells me that I need to find out why I'm bad in bed and start with all of my failures as a man. *More BS. I am great in bed and the neighbors would testify to that fact and we do not even have thin walls. That does not cure all things. It is selfishness OP and do not let anyone tell you any different.*
> 
> ...


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Orange, we've been married 18 years, together over 20, I have tried to have rational discussions till I'm blue in the face all I have EVER gotten out of it is stone-walling and even worse behavior. TALKING is NOT the answer! She seems to believe that communication is best left unsaid, there seems to be in her head the idea that IF i really cared about her I "would just know what she needs"....no offense but that's a bunch of stupid Oprah BS....nobody reads minds and some people are really really good at hiding what they're feeling.


you're right that she should not expect mind reading. If you really have tried communicating and being straightforward for 20 years and it's not working, there's nothing left is there? I admire you for considering your kids when thinking about whether or not to leave, but maybe you would be an even better model for your kids if you left and gave yourself a chance to be happy and possibly find a healthy relationship? If you do want to stay with her, the posters right above this have some good ideas of how to act.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Orange, we've been married 18 years, together over 20, I have tried to have rational discussions till I'm blue in the face all I have EVER gotten out of it is stone-walling and even worse behavior. TALKING is NOT the answer! *She seems to believe that communication is best left unsaid,* there seems to be in her head the idea that IF i really cared about her I "would just know what she needs"....no offense but that's a bunch of stupid Oprah BS....nobody reads minds and some people are really really good at hiding what they're feeling.


Because she wants you to act and speak through your actions and not with words.
She wants you to stop acting being nice and alpha-up. She wants you to take the lead and demand respect. She doesn't respect you so at this point she doesn't even care to meet your needs.
Waking her up by filing for divorce might change things. Resume to 180 ...but this time harder and longer. 
You'll see she'll change for better... 

Us women love it when men become worthy of fighting for so you need to shake up her world by changing your attitude.


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## Foolish1 (Apr 5, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> Like above where someone basically tells me that I need to find out why I'm bad in bed and start with all of my failures as a man.


I feel the same way, like I'm the one who has to do all the changing, but we're the ones who are here, not our spouses. It's not like the people on this board can give advice to your wife or my husband. You can't change someone's behavior unless they want to change.



IronicSmile said:


> Besides, we've talked plenty, it NEVER makes anything better. I'm sick to death of talking and trying to jump through all the moving hoops. That's why I wonder what would happen if I just turned it all around on her, my guess is she flips out and leaves or files for divorce within a month.


So you don't want to divorce but you want to do something that you think will provoke your wife into leaving? I imagine this will leave no chance of saving the marriage, whereas if you file and maybe do a hard 180, you may have a chance.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Divorce and 180 go hand in hand. 

The chances of a 180 working to rectify a marriage are about 0.0001% the 180 is for the person heading out the door.

One female poster said alpha-up and mix things up... she is ABSOLUTELY right. 

That is PART of what will turn your marriage around and are vital components to the turn-around. Alpha-up means be a stronger man mentally, take care of things and don't be afraid of your wife... learn to talk so she respects what you say. Not out of control.. in control.

Although its not as easy as alpha-up as people make it here... MMSL is not the absolute answer 

Best advice I have at this point is for the OP to stop talking, take a good look at himself, work on issues outside the bedroom by standing up to his wife, be nice and fun and don't go overboard. You want the sexless period to be a correction period allowing for better once the light bulb goes off in your wife's head. You can flip that switch...in time.

Let time work, let your actions work. Talk needs to be focused and rare... your wife is not deaf. Maybe stubborn but certainly not deaf. She needs time to re-evaluate you.

OR that may be too hard to wait.. so divorce and find another woman to have sex with.

That is what many here recommend
The satisfaction of turning around a marriage to me is worth it... my wife is worth it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Oh, someone mentioned that I should try threatening to just get some on side. The U.S. military will take rank, pay, etc for committing adultery under the "good order and discipline" code of the UCMJ. If you screw up during the investigation or conduct of the crime, you can even go to prison for various extenuating circumstances. MY DW knows all this, and knows i would never ever risk either, I'm too pretty to go to prison ;-)


You're retired aren't you? Besides, they won't put you in the brig for adultery unless they are already in the process of getting rid of you for some other offense or failure.

Have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer? I take it you have not, since you aren't running the MAP.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

I know you've moved on from the 'experiment' proposal but I just want to point out a major flaw that I see. You can't make someone feel the way you're trying to make her feel by brute force. From my experience the more you try to manipulate another person's feelings in this manner the more they tend to resist. And let's say it does result in an increase in sexual activity, is that really the kind of sex that you want? Sex that she only engages in for better access to your wallet?

Before you follow the advice many here are giving in regard to changing your behavior, ask yourself this - Does she deserve an even better version of you given her lack of effort in trying to resolve the marital issues you say have been discussed time and time again? I suspect your answer is no.

My recommendation is to take some time to think about what your life might be like if you went ahead with the separation. Where will you live? What happens to the kids? How will you take care of yourself after a long period of co-dependence? What will the financial ramifications be? Are you prepared for the scenario where your wife welcomes separation and refuses to reconcile later on (if that's what you want)?

If you go through that process and still feel strongly about divorce I think you know what you need to do.

It may just shock her into changing her stance. But be wary of being dragged back in if you can't be sure that any changes will be permanent.

You and your wife seem to be incompatible right now. There will be someone out there who is compatible with you. Don't spend a lifetime with the wrong person! Change is hard but ultimately it will be worthwhile.

I wish you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This isn't a good idea. Not because I don't like the idea of putting some pressure to make her see that sex is a big deal. But really, because it's passive aggressive and also because it simply won't work. You have a lot to learn. Start learning by reading Married Man Sex Life Primer.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Firstly, I like sex too much too much to withhold it - so why would I punish myself? 

Secondly, I don't believe in passive aggressive behaviour, which is exactly what withholding emotions and / or sex is.

Thirdly, I have never placed myself in a position (and never will) where any man would be in a position to withhold money from me as punishment - for anything.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> I have a theory that withholding sex is purely and solely a selfish power grab by a woman who is utterly bored in her relationship. That is, not that she is necessarily married to a boring man, but that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that that man is totally and utterly committed to her and to the relationship.
> 
> So here's my experimental question, what would happen if the husband treated his wallet the way the wife treats sex and intimacy? What if the rules of the wallet were (unbeknownst to the wife) exactly those that the wife used to deny, delay, and prevent sex, intimacy, and affection?
> 
> ...


So when men with hold sex (many do) is it also a power grab? Do you assume that only women withold sex?

70%-80% of married women work outside the home now. In about 50% of all marriages today, the wife is the primary income earner.

I guess you little model and thinking that money=sex is not going work in the vast majority of marriages.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Oh no I didn't say no money, cash-basis, $250/week for gas and groceries. Everything else she has to ask for.


If this is the way you treat a SAHM, then no wonder she would feel a need to gain some power in the marriage. You seem to start out with the notion that only the male bread winner has power and that the huband & wife are not equals.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> BTW, notice that all of the attention in these comments is on sex, I would live without sex if we could just have some normal affection and intimacy.
> 
> We only have closed mouth kisses, she doesn't like to be hugged or stroked in any way. We had to buy a huge king bed so I wouldn't bother her sleeping and only snuggle for about 3 minutes in the morning right before she jumps out of bed and gets her day on. I feel like I"m married to my pillow.


The OP is about sex. So people are addressing what YOU posted. If you wanted to discuss intimacy... then you should have written about it to start with.


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## Sunshine Cadillac (Apr 30, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> Well is there a better way to help her understand how cruel her behavior is? Talking about it for 18 years has failed utterly.


There must be a bigger issue here then if after 18 years she feels the need to refuse to have sex with you more often than you would like. I guess if she doesnt like talking to you she wouldnt talk to a counselor? Was there ever a time that she enjoyed having sex with you all the time and now or over the last 18 years she just stopped? I think you definitely waited a long time to start thinking about it being an issue, but I respect that you want to stay because of the kids. On the other hand as others have mentioned your a roll model for your children so you are providing them with the situation that its ok to be unhappy in a relationship and stick around just because. If they dont understand today they will understand when they are old enough to. 

Good luck, i hope it all works out for you!


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## anja (Mar 12, 2013)

Just to clarify. Sex/intimacy happens and you give her cash. Sex/Intimacy doesn't happen and you give her no cash. 

Is it just me or does this border on prostitution?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If this is the way you treat a SAHM, then no wonder she would feel a need to gain some power in the marriage. You seem to start out with the notion that only the male bread winner has power and that the huband & wife are not equals.


We're not equals, I'm an unappreciated paycheck, and in my family I am the only bread-winner, and the only one of us capable of earning anything close to what I earn.

I don't and have never controlled or withheld money. WE have joint checking, joint credit, everything is in both our names, and while we're not wealthy, we're definitely very comfortable.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

You can't just expect sex from her. She's has to want to give it to you. Reconnect with your wife in a much less controlling way.

Your experiment will fail no doubt.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Sunshine Cadillac said:


> There must be a bigger issue here then if after 18 years she feels the need to refuse to have sex with you more often than you would like. I guess if she doesnt like talking to you she wouldnt talk to a counselor? Was there ever a time that she enjoyed having sex with you all the time and now or over the last 18 years she just stopped? I think you definitely waited a long time to start thinking about it being an issue, but I respect that you want to stay because of the kids. On the other hand as others have mentioned your a roll model for your children so you are providing them with the situation that its ok to be unhappy in a relationship and stick around just because. If they dont understand today they will understand when they are old enough to.
> 
> Good luck, i hope it all works out for you!


Trust me i haven't waited a long time, I've been working on this for practically our entire marriage. Sometimes it gets better for a while, but in the last few years her behavior has become absolutely poisonous.

We go through these periods where everything she does seems designed to punish and humiliate me.

We dated for 4 years, sex life was awesome basically whenever and whatever, we were both very into it and very much enjoyed it. Then about 18 months into our marriage all of this **** started, has been off and on ugly ever since (basically since the first pregnancy).


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

anja said:


> Just to clarify. Sex/intimacy happens and you give her cash. Sex/Intimacy doesn't happen and you give her no cash.
> 
> Is it just me or does this border on prostitution?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure if I'm the one making her into a prostitute? Isn't that what she's done herself by turning our sex life into some sort of transaction of punishment and reward?

She's the one who started using it to punish me, or alternatively to get things from me. She has a pattern of turning things on and up for me for a few days, getting me in a good frame of mind and then springing some huge request/demand on me.

I'm just following her lead, apparently she prefers to be treated like a prostitute.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

BTW, thanks for all the comments, I appreciate the honesty and criticism. I think i am going to modify the experiment to this:

I am going to move my pay and our savings to my name only, I'm going to split our joint investments equally and offer her a check for her to either add to her personal investments (all my earnings) or invest anew. 

Then I'm going to impose only one condition on her for spending, she has to ask me for the $$$. That's it, she has to ask. Nothing else, no demands, no requests nothing, she just has to ask me for any money she needs from here on out.

I'm interested in how this changes her perspective, and if she sticks around for it to take effect, if not then good riddance, I'm tired of the BS.

At any rate, I'm curious on how this will affect her perspective of me.


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## Foolish1 (Apr 5, 2013)

I think things like this will only be effective if you are certain your side of the street is very clean. And even then game playing almost always comes off as petty and not really trying to fix a problem. I'm certainly not above doing petty things though, so who am I to judge? Doing tit-for-tat got my marriage into the shambles it is today. Hope you have better luck.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Foolish1 said:


> I think things like this will only be effective if you are certain your side of the street is very clean. And even then game playing almost always comes off as petty and not really trying to fix a problem. I'm certainly not above doing petty things though, so who am I to judge? Doing tit-for-tat got my marriage into the shambles it is today. Hope you have better luck.



You are correct... two wrongs don't make a right. Withholding common money is wrong its a game... 

If one owns up to their part in the impasse and does everything from that point forward to lead the marriage back to a* happier state* that spouse will be successful over time.

Calculated communication, consistency, holding the other spouse accountable and not reacting to their game allows you the ability to affect change over time.

Every move calculated. Not in reaction to the other spouses "game" ... be efficient.

You are doing yourself a disservice if you tie SEX to anything other than your vows or its purpose and how it makes you feel.
Sex need to be given not negotiated or taken.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> We're not equals


This attitude right here would be a major source of trouble/discord in a lot of marriages, I should think.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> We're not equals, I'm an unappreciated paycheck, and in my family I am the only bread-winner, and the only one of us capable of earning anything close to what I earn.
> 
> I don't and have never controlled or withheld money. WE have joint checking, joint credit, everything is in both our names, and while we're not wealthy, we're definitely very comfortable.


You don't respect the things your wife does as a SAHM. So why don't you tell her that? Why not be honest. That's how you put an end to the games. Tell her that you don't respect her as your equal because she does not earn a living equal to yours. She needs to go back to school to get some skills so that she can support herself. 

Then you can hire a housekeeper and someone to raise your childen when she's at school and work.

I'm saying this because I'm taking you at your word that what she is doing is a power play. If you want her to not feel like this is the only way that she can power in your relationship...than she needs another way to gain the power so she does not feel like she's a child that you are controling.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I agree any time the husband equates "his" money with her having sex with him its not good.So she needs to earn her own money so then he will have to look at it from a different angle and go from there.

If he and she had an agreement before marriage that he would give her money and support her directly in exchange for sex (i.e prostitution) then I could see stopping payments for services not rendered.Otherwise I cant understand the connection between marital sex and money.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> You are correct... two wrongs don't make a right. Withholding common money is wrong its a game...


I think its even more "wrong" to withold it over sex specifically.You are in a sense saying your spouse is being "payed" to have sex.It would be just as wrong if each time they had sex she said O.K that will be $100 bucks.Or before they had sex her saying "I need the money first".If he wants to treat her like a ***** IMHO then he should be treated like a John to understand how utterly sick that is.If he could even be happy knowing she is doing it for the money bigger ....


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> BTW, thanks for all the comments, I appreciate the honesty and criticism. I think i am going to modify the experiment to this:
> 
> I am going to move my pay and our savings to my name only, I'm going to split our joint investments equally and offer her a check for her to either add to her personal investments (all my earnings) or invest anew.
> 
> ...


IS,

Truly? This is not what a real man does. I go back to teaching your children. What do you think your wife will do when you implement this tactic? 

So you are going to stay and teach the kids how to play games in a toxic relationship? Horrid idea.

If you still love your wife, or even if you do not, go in peace and begin a new chapter. This is tearing you apart and I completely get that but what you are suggesting is childish at best. Take the high road my friend. Just file and start the ball moving.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I agree any time the husband equates "his" money with her having sex with him its not good.So she needs to earn her own money so then he will have to look at it from a different angle and go from there.
> 
> If he and she had an agreement before marriage that he would give her money and support her directly in exchange for sex (i.e prostitution) then I could see stopping payments for services not rendered.Otherwise I cant understand the connection between marital sex and money.


Although much of the discussion here is about sex, and maybe my fault for emphasizing it, but respect is really what hurts the most, or lack thereof. Denying sex is really just a symptom I get that, and that's really what makes me so angry. 

That is the point of taking away her easy access to my paycheck. She has lost respect for everything that I do for our family, 50-60 hr workweeks, six figure salary, huge house/cars/ fine clothes.....I guess I feel like she is acting like all of these area given....then ****-testing me some more as If I haven't proven myself every week already.

If she has to ask for what she wants, I will provide what she needs, will she start to remember how much I actually do that deserves her respect and admiration?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You don't respect the things your wife does as a SAHM. So why don't you tell her that? Why not be honest. That's how you put an end to the games. Tell her that you don't respect her as your equal because she does not earn a living equal to yours. She needs to go back to school to get some skills so that she can support herself.
> 
> Then you can hire a housekeeper and someone to raise your childen when she's at school and work.
> 
> I'm saying this because I'm taking you at your word that what she is doing is a power play. If you want her to not feel like this is the only way that she can power in your relationship...than she needs another way to gain the power so she does not feel like she's a child that you are controling.


Now that is just not true. I have given her every respect for her SAHM duties, that's why she has her own investments, all of our property and finances are joint, and really why I am so angry about all of this, I RESPECT and ADMIRE her, in return I get treated like a creep for being attracted to her


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> BTW, notice that all of the attention in these comments is on sex, I would live without sex if we could just have some normal affection and intimacy.
> 
> *We only have closed mouth kisses, she doesn't like to be hugged or stroked in any way. We had to buy a huge king bed so I wouldn't bother her sleeping and only snuggle for about 3 minutes in the morning right before she jumps out of bed and gets her day on.* I feel like I"m married to my pillow.


Sounds like she may have a history of being sexually abused in which case her massive unmet needs are respect and protection.

Any armtwisting on your part will remind her how she was forced as a child. Threats of witholding money will make her pull ever more deeply into her shell like a turtle. Anger, resentment, and demandingness over sex will trigger her feelings of not having any say. 

She'll come out of the shell when she feels protected and respected. Tenderness, romance, kindness, protectiveness, respect.

You say you respect and admire her but I don't hear it. I hear resentment. You judge her motives as "abusive" and "disrespectful". I think she's motivated by hurt and fear.


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## wifeiam (Apr 1, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> I have a theory that withholding sex is purely and solely a selfish power grab by a woman who is utterly bored in her relationship. That is, not that she is necessarily married to a boring man, but that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that that man is totally and utterly committed to her and to the relationship.
> 
> So here's my experimental question, what would happen if the husband treated his wallet the way the wife treats sex and intimacy? What if the rules of the wallet were (unbeknownst to the wife) exactly those that the wife used to deny, delay, and prevent sex, intimacy, and affection?
> 
> ...


So the way to get a wife to sleep with her husband is to make it clear it is a paid activity? Yeah, see how well that works.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> I have a theory that withholding sex is purely and solely a selfish power grab by a woman who is utterly bored in her relationship.



I have a theory that some people project their own inclinations onto their spouse and make no effort whatsoever to really understand what motivates their spouse's actions.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> If she has to ask for what she wants, I will provide what she needs, will she start to remember how much I actually do that deserves her respect and admiration?


I don't know about her but I would feel like he was playing a game /treating me like a child/trying to control me/and demoralizing me in retaliation if my husband suddenly did that to me and we had your issues and that would not do anything to cause me to respect or admire him.I would also feel like the message was it was "his money" and that my work and role as a SAHM was worthless to him monetarily IOW I was not part of a team that helped enable the success financially apparently even a burden on him and certainly not a respected role in the sense I had earned access to "his money".

I would either just not ask for money and only make purchases that were for you and the children but for my basics like food and shelter(since that is all i would deserve in his eyes and that made me damn lucky) and the rest(anything I wanted) I would sacrifice for my children.OR if I really wanted to be able to have any spending power /access to money for things I desired above basics I would go ahead and enroll the children into public school if they weren't already /hire a sitter for after hours / or if old enough they could be latch key kids(to save money).Get some training for a decent job so I could have some level of monetary freedom without having to ask him for it to "realize respect" .I would try to continue since I'm sure I would earn less because of lack of work history to also spend time continuing to shop for the family groceries and do more than my share of domestic duties such as cooking and cleaning homework with kids and shopping to earn towards my room and board.

I think I might also just as a show of respect put some of "my money' towards household bills everyone benefited from like save up to take the whole family on vacation..as well as go ahead and help pay some of the basics just as an act of demonstrating I was not looking to him for a completely "free ride".I could prove to him I was never disrespecting him not intentionally anyway by spending his money on myself and prove I love him by my willingness to labor for pay to ease his burden just as he has been doing that for me he I would then know put far more meaning to(value) than my role and considered what I did "unequal" to his earning all the money.He could stop feeling so used.

But then again like I said that is me.Your wife might just "realize" how much you do that deserves your respect and admiration.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Now that is just not true. I have given her every respect for her SAHM duties, that's why she has her own investments, all of our property and finances are joint, and really why I am so angry about all of this, I RESPECT and ADMIRE her, in return I get treated like a creep for being attracted to her


If you truely do respect and admire her, it's not coming out in what you are posting here. I understand that what you are posting is a lot out of frustration.

But people here are responding to what you post here, myself included. I think that our reaction to what you are saying here should be of great help to you. For example if you tell your wife that she is not equal to you, or treat her that way, she will believe your words and actions. Then she will treat you with even more distain. So.... that should tell you that what you are thinking of doing (what you post here) is not going to work very well.

You say that you feel that she does not appreciate and respect all the things you do to support her.

By the way I know how this feels as I have been the sole support of my family for years. My husband did nothing as a SAHD.. well nothing except play video games. His lack of respect was so thick that it was well known. Even our children talked to me about it. I ended up divorcing him over this and other issues. So I understand very well the way you feel about the lack of respect.

Besides the sex thing... could you give a few examples of what she does that you feel is disrespectful?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My husband did nothing as a SAHD.. well nothing except play video games. His lack of respect was so thick that it was well known. Even our children talked to me about it. I ended up divorcing him over this and other issues. So I understand very well the way you feel about the lack of respect.


Not to butt in but he doesn't feel disrespected because he works and she is a SAHM not pulling her weight.He describes her as a good SAHM including she homeschools there 3 children.And oddly speaking of his wallet even though I know they have a very nice lifestyle he describes her as "frugal".

I dont think he views though her labor at home as equal to his providing the income and that is part of the problem with a lot of men who have SAHM and he earns.No matter how hard she works it seems the money part "trumps" suddenly when their are sexual issues He begins to equate him providing money with her providing him sex.They are not related in my mind UNLESS you are indirectly eluding to part of her "job" is being his sex for hire at home.

And that of course is something that directly targets SAHM's.You never here a guy mention his income or what he pays for in relation to her showing him respect and appreciation through sex and affection if they both contribute more equally financially or especially if she earns more.Why is that? Well because in truth your financial contributions have NOTHING to do or lets say should not have anything to do with your SEX LIFE with your wife.But apparently they do if you are a full time SAHM she gets assigned that "job" as part of his being the sole income earner.Including this is not the first time I have seen this.Sexual dysfunction where the man will resort to comparing supporting her to her obligation to give him sex including cutting her off financially to try and "get the point across".

And without fail all I have ever known that to accomplish is make the issue just that much worse.Including the same conclusion is drawn she is beign treated by her husband like a prostitute .WOW that will really warm her up to you .NOT!

Lets put it this way .If she earned as much as he did they could have this SAME issue but his "wallet" would have not been mentioned.Its a degrading aspect reserved for SAHM's when sexual issues arrise that others don't ever have to experience who "work" who may have the exact same problems.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Not to butt in but he doesn't feel disrespected because he works and she is a SAHM not pulling her weight.He describes her as a good SAHM including she homeschools there 3 children. And oddly speaking of his wallet even though I know they have a very nice lifestyle he describes her as "frugal".


I was simply telling him that I understood that about feeling disrespected but pointed out the difference in our situations.


dallasapple said:


> I dont think he views though her labor at home as equal to his providing the income and that is part of the problem with a lot of men who have SAHM and he earns. No matter how hard she works it seems the money part "trumps" suddenly when their are sexual issues He begins to equate him providing money with her providing him sex. They are not related in my mind UNLESS you are indirectly eluding to part of her "job" is being his sex for hire at home.


I agree with this assessment. He does not consider her his equal. I’m sure she knows this and it might very well be at the root of the problem.


dallasapple said:


> And that of course is something that directly targets SAHM's. You never here a guy mention his income or what he pays for in relation to her showing him respect and appreciation through sex and affection if they both contribute more equally financially or especially if she earns more. Why is that? Well because in truth your financial contributions have NOTHING to do or lets say should not have anything to do with your SEX LIFE with your wife. But apparently they do if you are a full time SAHM she gets assigned that "job" as part of his being the sole income earner. Including this is not the first time I have seen this. Sexual dysfunction where the man will resort to comparing supporting her to her obligation to give him sex including cutting her off financially to try and "get the point across".


Yep, I’ve seen this as well. I’ve very evident in this thread. I’m not sure the OP felt this way about money vs her contribution or if he is at his wits end. Is it a case of a frustrated guy saying hey I do all of this for her and she will not love me? So he pulls the only trump card he thinks he has… the money he earns.

What I have noticed with a lot of men here is that when things are going well in the marriage they talk about how they love that she’s a SAHM. But when things get bad, they talk about her with great disrespect because they earn more than she does. For this to come out at times of strife, it has to be right under the surface all the time.



dallasapple said:


> And without fail all I have ever known that to accomplish is make the issue just that much worse. Including the same conclusion is drawn she is beign treated by her husband like a prostitute .WOW that will really warm her up to you .NOT!


No kidding.


dallasapple said:


> Lets put it this way .If she earned as much as he did they could have this SAME issue but his "wallet" would have not been mentioned. Its a degrading aspect reserved for SAHM's when sexual issues arrise that others don't ever have to experience who "work" who may have the exact same problems.


I agree.

However I have also known SAHM’s who have great contempt for their bread winning husband. They put no value at all on what he does every day to support the family. I’m not sure if that’s the case here. I don’t think we have even scratched the surface on what is going on wrong in the OP’s marriage. I don’t think he’s even looked that deeply into it.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I was thinking about your thread and I propose you try a simpler and shorter term experiment first. I was thinking that perhaps your wife avoids affection with you because there is no such thing as non-sexual affection between you? 

Experiment: For two weeks 20 hugs and kisses per day. No sexual touching (groping body parts) and no sex. You just shower her with NON-sexual affection and completely resist any urge to consummate. The Importance of Non-Sexual Affection | Refresh | MarriageToday


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> However I have also known SAHM’s who have great contempt for their bread winning husband. They put no value at all on what he does every day to support the family. I’m not sure if that’s the case here.


I agree I just don't like the assumption that if she is a SAHM but has a sexual issue or aversion to sex which I think she sounds like she does.(he is sure she is not having sex with anyone else) that means she has no respect that he earns the bread.Or that is how a SAHM specifically is or even primarily to show her appreciation and respect that he earns the money is through sex.That also twist it IMHO to close to "why" she should have sex with him at all.

Well then if thats "why" then that would only apply to SAHM's.Where would that leave all the men with working wives as to "why" his wife should if she has the same aversion?Should working wives get to say "well I earn as much money as you do why should I have sex with you" I don't think so. See what I mean?

That in my mind is like putting a reason a SAHM(or dad for that matter) in a category with a reason to have sex and for those who both work in another.What would be next "well I earn 3 x as much as you so you should have sex with me 3x more than you want?"OOPS you lost your job no more sex?..I mean really its starts to make my mind spin our when the reason to have sex has anything to do with money.Or the reason why NOT to have sex has anything to do with money.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEI think that trying to talk about it just legitimizes the behavior, it is NOT legitimate. Nothing I have done in 18 years could make this cruelty ok, ever, under any skewed viewpoint. 
][/QUOTE]

As Blonde mentioned its possible she has an aversion to sex due to some sort of past sexual trauma.Can even be very bad teachings it doesn't necessarily have to be CSA or rape.

If that is the case her behavior is "legitimate" in the same way its "legitimate" for someone to develop anorexia or bulimia.

That is why its important to try and find out reasons she is like this.And stop thinking about it in terms she is being CRUEL to YOU like its personal specifically about you.I mean that in the sense I suspect IF she has a full blown sexual aversion wouldn't have mattered who she married she would have been the same way sexually with whoever.

Look at it this way she is also starving and denying herself of sexual pleasure and the intimacy and bond it forms.And she KNOWS good and well too that her "distaste" for sex has caused HUGE issues in your relationship if it was a simple matter of it not being "legit" she wouldn't be putting herself and you through it..

So "talking about it" is the only answer but she needs to talk to a sex therapist IMHO.Unravel what goes on in her mind .Their is treatment for this it is just a terryfying thing to face.So of course she will avoid it.But definately the answer is not to play games over it by witholding money.Talk about "legitimizing" her behavior?She already thinks "all you want is sex".She already relates sex having some sort of control or commodity to give out to get something she needs or wants.All you will be doing is confirming for her she was right.Thats what its for.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> BTW, thanks for all the comments, I appreciate the honesty and criticism. I think i am going to modify the experiment to this:
> 
> I am going to move my pay and our savings to my name only, I'm going to split our joint investments equally and offer her a check for her to either add to her personal investments (all my earnings) or invest anew.
> 
> ...


Personally, I agree that if talking doesn't work, then there's no point in talking. Even if it *does* work, it requires both people to back up their words with actions. 

Do you think your wife loves you? Or do you think she loves the security you represent but could replace you with any other warm body and she'd be as happy or even happier? 

Because it's gone on for so long, I'm guessing that she *does* love you and it's sexual baggage on her part. Maybe she thinks that being a mother means shutting down sexual feelings, in which case you might only see progress when kids are gone. Maybe she never really liked sex but acted like she did because she'd be unable to have a family if she showed the truth. 

Whatever the case, you are not wrong to use a demonstration to get your point across.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> I have a theory that withholding sex is purely and solely a selfish power grab by a woman who is utterly bored in her relationship. That is, not that she is necessarily married to a boring man, but that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that that man is totally and utterly committed to her and to the relationship.
> 
> So here's my experimental question, what would happen if the husband treated his wallet the way the wife treats sex and intimacy? What if the rules of the wallet were (unbeknownst to the wife) exactly those that the wife used to deny, delay, and prevent sex, intimacy, and affection?
> 
> ...


You make it sound like money should be a reward for getting sex, and denial of them a punishment for not having been laid. Which, when you'll put it this way to your wives, either they'll do it just to get it over with quickly and make you spend more money on them, or, ( very likely ) they will get offended. 
Marital prostitution, anyone ? Money for grabs in the morning...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> BTW, thanks for all the comments, I appreciate the honesty and criticism. I think i am going to modify the experiment to this:
> 
> I am going to move my pay and our savings to my name only, I'm going to split our joint investments equally and offer her a check for her to either add to her personal investments (all my earnings) or invest anew.
> 
> ...


So you are going to financially abuse her? How will that help?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Holland said:


> So you are going to financially abuse her? How will that help?


So in your opinion if I require my wife to ask/justify any financial requirements she has, I'm "abusing" her? Not sure I understand this. 

If the experiment is to withhold nothing, simply modify our financial arrangements so that she has to ask me for any spending requirements or needs outside of those associated with running the household, how does this constitute abuse?

Again, back to my original hypothesis, this isn't about abuse, it is about power in the relationship. From my perspective she has lost all respect for me, she holds me and the things I do in contempt. 

I think that part of this is tied to the fact that although I earn the paycheck, she has full and equal access to it. She never has to acknowledge, even to herself, the role I play.

In fact she can "punish" me by withholding sex, affection, and respect BECAUSE I work hard to provide for the family, while still enjoying the benefits of my labors.

So the question and hypothesis is, IF the earner puts the SAHM in a position where she must CONTINUALLY acknowledge the importance of his role, will this start to change her perspective in positive ways?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

One of the best things about TAM is that when I want to lash out, I can talk about and get other's perspectives, and get talked out of acting from frustration and anger.

Pretty sure many here might think I'm a hopeless case, but your advice is really important and helpful, and I am tremendously grateful for every word of it.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> So in your opinion if I require my wife to ask/justify any financial requirements she has, I'm "abusing" her? Not sure I understand this.
> 
> If the experiment is to withhold nothing, simply modify our financial arrangements so that she has to ask me for any spending requirements or needs outside of those associated with running the household, how does this constitute abuse?
> 
> ...


It may be prudent for you to do some research into what financial abuse is. I have no clues on your country but in mine what you are proposing would be considered financial abuse therefore "family violence". 

It is both legally and morally wrong and reprehensible.

Financial abuse against spouses won't be tolerated: Hulls - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

You have some serious issues, yes that is true and I am sorry to hear that but do not think that heading down this path will fix anything, it will most likely make your life worse.
Get some proper counselling and/or legal advice. Your marriage is a toxic relationship with the two of you being the problem, not just your wife.


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## alisa (Dec 28, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> So in your opinion if I require my wife to ask/justify any financial requirements she has, I'm "abusing" her? Not sure I understand this.
> 
> If the experiment is to withhold nothing, simply modify our financial arrangements so that she has to ask me for any spending requirements or needs outside of those associated with running the household, how does this constitute abuse?
> 
> ...


making a grown up person "ask" for money is the most humiliating experience i can possibly think of and i think it lines in perfectly with withholding sex. by doing so, you are proving yourself to be as selfish as her! 

i am probably not one of the best persons to pass my opinion but controlling money on the basis of the lack of interest in sex from her side is entirely wrong! believe me, i am going through the same thing myself and its pushing me away with each day! If you want your relationship to get better, you need to talk to your wife than sink to a lower level yourself! by doing this, you will be pushing her even further!


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> Again, back to my original hypothesis,* this isn't about abuse, it is about power in the relationship.* From my perspective she has lost all respect for me, she holds me and the things I do in contempt.
> 
> I think that part of this is tied to the fact that although I earn the paycheck, she has full and equal access to it. She never has to acknowledge, even to herself, the role I play.
> 
> ...



Abuse is about power and control and I'm assuming your wife has access to the internet? Here is what she will read when she looks up "Am I being abused?" I bolded a couple. And "refuse to have sex with you when you want it" is not on any of the lists I saw BTW.


make you feel uncomfortable or afraid?
 often put you down, humiliate you, or make you feel worthless?
 constantly check up on what you’re doing or where you are going?
 try to stop you from seeing your own friends or family?
 make you feel afraid to disagree or say ‘no’ to them?
 constantly accuse you of flirting with others when this isn’t true?
 *tell you how the household finances should be spent, or stop you having any money for yourself?*
 stop you from having medical assistance?
 scare or hurt you by being violent (like hitting, choking, smashing things, locking you in, driving dangerously to frighten you)
 *pressure or force you to do sexual things that you don’t want to do?*
 threaten to hurt you, or to kill themselves if you say you want to end the relationship?
 Have your children heard or seen these things or been hurt themselves?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> I have a theory that withholding sex is purely and solely a selfish power grab by a woman who is utterly bored in her relationship.


You don't understand women nor your wife. If you dumped her and started over, would you criticize and withold money from the next one to get her into bed? NO, you treat her kindly, you wine and dine, you romance, you connect emotionally, you work on yourself to be fit and attractive to a partner

Your wife can feel your resentment and the constant pressure that whenever you touch her it's not about loving and connecting with her. It's about your hunger for sex. She's not "withholding sex" to have power in the relationship nor to punish you. She does not feel appreciated, loved, nor respected by you and she is turned off and disgusted that you don't understand nor care about her and she's no more than a wet place to put it to you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Orange, we've been married 18 years, together over 20, I have tried to have rational discussions till I'm blue in the face all I have EVER gotten out of it is stone-walling and even worse behavior. TALKING is NOT the answer! *She seems to believe that communication is best left unsaid,* there seems to be in her head the idea that IF i really cared about her I "would just know what she needs"....no offense but that's a bunch of stupid Oprah BS....nobody reads minds and some people are really really good at hiding what they're feeling.


So what are your unspoken actions telling her?

While I don't agree with your approach with respect to money, I do suspect that you changing how you interact with her, particularly regarding how seriously you view this issue, may help you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

70% of human communication is non-verbal. So changing your behavior could go a long way to changing your marriage.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

alisa said:


> making a grown up person "ask" for money is the most humiliating experience i can possibly think of and i think it lines in perfectly with withholding sex. by doing so, you are proving yourself to be as selfish as her!
> 
> i am probably not one of the best persons to pass my opinion but controlling money on the basis of the lack of interest in sex from her side is entirely wrong! believe me, i am going through the same thing myself and its pushing me away with each day! If you want your relationship to get better, you need to talk to your wife than sink to a lower level yourself! by doing this, you will be pushing her even further!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

alisa said:


> making a grown up person "ask" for money is the most humiliating experience i can possibly think of and i think it lines in perfectly with withholding sex. by doing so, you are proving yourself to be as selfish as her!
> 
> i am probably not one of the best persons to pass my opinion but controlling money on the basis of the lack of interest in sex from her side is entirely wrong! believe me, i am going through the same thing myself and its pushing me away with each day! If you want your relationship to get better, you need to talk to your wife than sink to a lower level yourself! by doing this, you will be pushing her even further!


Easy there, I'm just talking about this as a hypothetical, haven't and probably won't try it, but I'm pretty sure with the right guidelines it is perfectly legal here in the US for one spouse to control the finances. Now, using them to demand sex....different proposition. 
It's interesting how the abuse of denial is so strongly defended, while even considering financial abuse draws such vehement scorn.

My thinking is still that the spouse who turns the sex life and affection into a transaction for certain behavior is the one who has made it into prostitution, after that you're just negotiating price.

All the financial restraint does is acknowledge the new nature of the relationship, I wouldn't give my wh  re,or my maid free access to my checkbook after all...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My thinking is still that the spouse who turns the sex life and affection into a transaction for certain behavior is the one who has made it into prostitution, after that you're just negotiating price.


That's like saying that the prostitute made the John hire her because she was the one offering sex for a price.He had no choice then he had to bargain with her.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> My thinking is still that the spouse who turns the sex life and affection into a transaction *for certain behavior *is the one who has made it into prostitution, after that you're just negotiating price.


No, a woman who can't respond sexually when she is mistreated is called a healthy woman/wife. Prostitutes are in it for the money. You can pay them the negotiated price to treat them like crap. They don't care about your "behavior" as long as you pay the going rate. 

Wives OTH DO care about your behavior. Do you love, romance, flirt, date OR do you have a huge entitled chip on your shoulder and spew judgment about her "abuse" for not servicing you on demand along with threats over money? A wife wants to be loved, appreciated, and respected.

She has a history of being sexually responsive when loved and cherished (during that early bliss stage of your relationship). I'm going to change my answer and go with those who suggest divorce because you are unwilling to look in the mirror, you blame her, you don't love her and she should have someone who does.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Before the divorce you might want to give this a try Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## bbrad (May 30, 2012)

Why not seek out a professional councilor/therapist? You can afford it, it helped us, but we seem to fall back on old habits. I say or do something wrong, and then the door gets slammed shut, and I am left out in the cold, and end up pissed about it.

We are both to blame, but to me, it seems like I am the one that pays the price.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Easy there, I'm just talking about this as a hypothetical, haven't and probably won't try it, but I'm pretty sure with the right guidelines it is perfectly legal here in the US for one spouse to control the finances.


It is not ‘legal’ for one spouse to control the finances against the wishes of the other. The spouse being denied access to funds (free access) could got to court and get a court order for access to whatever portion of the income that the court deems reasonable. By law, in most states earned income is community property. Thus your wife as the legal right to 50% of the earned income.

Your wife works for a living. She is just not paid by company for the work she does. But her work has value. You agreed that she would be a SAHM, it was a joint agreement. You also have legally agreed that she is entitled to 50% of your earned income. When you married her, signed a contract agreeing to her right to 50% of all earned income that comes into the marriage community.



IronicSmile said:


> Now, using them to demand sex....different proposition.


No one has the right to demand sex from anyone. If your wife does not want sex with you it’s because there is either a problem in your relationship with her or it’s because she has a medical problem. But you cannot demand sex from her. You have to find a way for her to want to have sex with you.
You have yet to admit to any fault on your side. So far she’s a mean woman and you are a saint. I rather doubt that. It could be the case. But I’d be less acceptable if you were to talk about the problems that you bring to the marriage.


IronicSmile said:


> It's interesting how the abuse of denial is so strongly defended, while even considering financial abuse draws such vehement scorn.


The abuse of denial is not strongly defended here. Many of the people here who are replying to you are also experiencing denial of sex in their marriage. I’m one of them. But we also know that there is zero, nada, zilch connection between your wife’s right to marital income and sex. You apparently do not.



IronicSmile said:


> My thinking is still that the spouse who turns the sex life and affection into a transaction for certain behavior is the one who has made it into prostitution, after that you're just negotiating price.


What has your wife done to turn sex/affection into a transaction? What does she say? 



IronicSmile said:


> All the financial restraint does is acknowledge the new nature of the relationship, I wouldn't give my wh  re,or my maid free access to my checkbook after all...


There is no changed financial nature in your relationship. The financial nature of your relationship is controlled by your marriage contract. You do not have the legal authority to unilaterally change your marriage contract. 
Your wife is not your [email protected] or your maid. How dare you refer to her in those terms. I think I’m seeing more and more why your wife is withholding sex/affection. If a my husband referred to me with those words he’s be served divorce papers so fast his head would spin.

You are unhappy in your marriage. You are not willing to look at your own faults to figure out if you are pushing her away and what to do to fix it. You feel that she is not your equal because you work for a living. You call you wife a [email protected] and a maid. It sounds like the two of you are miserable. So divorce her already.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Easy there, I'm just talking about this as a hypothetical, haven't and probably won't try it, but I'm pretty sure with the right guidelines it is perfectly legal here in the US for one spouse to control the finances. Now, using them to demand sex....different proposition.
> *It's interesting how the abuse of denial is so strongly defended, while even considering financial abuse draws such vehement scorn.
> *
> My thinking is still that the spouse who turns the sex life and affection into a transaction for certain behavior is the one who has made it into prostitution, after that you're just negotiating price.
> ...


Really? I have never seen it posted here that sexual denial is OK, perhaps you are interpreting the responses how you want to interpret them.
I was in a sexless marriage, I understand that pain but there is no way that two wrongs make a right, you will not fix anything by financially abusing your wife.

Take some serious steps here not ridiculous experimental ideas or alternatively file for divorce. Whatever you do fix or end this toxic situation you and your wife are in.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> All the financial restraint does is acknowledge the new nature of the relationship, I wouldn't give my wh  re,or my maid free access to my checkbook after all...


You forgot child care provider and someone to have your children (aka mother). Those are also "services" that she provides.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bbrad said:


> Why not seek out a professional councilor/therapist? You can afford it, it helped us, but we seem to fall back on old habits. I say or do something wrong, and then the door gets slammed shut, and I am left out in the cold, and end up pissed about it.
> 
> We are both to blame, but to me, it seems like I am the one that pays the price.


You think that you are the one who is paying the price when old habits create a problem between the two of you? Do you think that only you benefit from affection and sex? Hardly. 

Both of you are being denied the good things when this happens. Looking at yourself and the victim in a situation like this might be part of the problem.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I nearly always agree with you, Elegirl, but I'm afraid I can't on some of things you've said... and maybe on the entire matter. 



EleGirl said:


> It is not ‘legal’ for one spouse to control the finances against the wishes of the other. The spouse being denied access to funds (free access) could got to court and get a court order for access to whatever portion of the income that the court deems reasonable. By law, in most states earned income is community property. Thus your wife as the legal right to 50% of the earned income.
> 
> *Agreed.*
> 
> ...


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

bbrad said:


> Why not seek out a professional councilor/therapist? You can afford it, it helped us, but we seem to fall back on old habits. I say or do something wrong, and then the door gets slammed shut, and I am left out in the cold, and end up pissed about it.
> 
> We are both to blame, but to me, it seems like I am the one that pays the price.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

bbrad said:


> Why not seek out a professional councilor/therapist? You can afford it, it helped us, but we seem to fall back on old habits. I say or do something wrong, and then the door gets slammed shut, and I am left out in the cold, and end up pissed about it.
> 
> We are both to blame, but to me, it seems like I am the one that pays the price.


Thanks for the tip, actually I've been reading "In Sheep's Clothing" by George Simon. He describes my wife to a tee, she has all the behaviors of a "covert aggressive".

This is a new term for me, and that book has given me some great insights in the last few days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Blonde said:


> No, a woman who can't respond sexually when she is mistreated is called a healthy woman/wife. Prostitutes are in it for the money. You can pay them the negotiated price to treat them like crap. They don't care about your "behavior" as long as you pay the going rate.
> 
> Wives OTH DO care about your behavior. Do you love, romance, flirt, date OR do you have a huge entitled chip on your shoulder and spew judgment about her "abuse" for not servicing you on demand along with threats over money? A wife wants to be loved, appreciated, and respected.
> 
> She has a history of being sexually responsive when loved and cherished (during that early bliss stage of your relationship). I'm going to change my answer and go with those who suggest divorce because you are unwilling to look in the mirror, you blame her, you don't love her and she should have someone who does.


Whew, you make a lot of assumptions there...I HAVE been desperately looking in the mirror for 17 years. I've done everything humanly possible to accommodate, including giving her space without complaint, seeking counseling, showering her with nonsexual affection for months on end.

I've tried just about every thing that I could, including MAP & MMSL, which did help some....

Have pretty much come to the conclusion that she's just BSC, and that nothing I ever do will give us a good relationship. Have read "In Sheep's Clothing" by George Simon,.....pretty well convinced she is a deeply covert-aggressive personality disorder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

BSC?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Blonde said:


> BSC?


B*t Sh*t Crazy


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't understand this thread.

You have the sole claim on ownership of 100% of your money, and you are permitted to have sex with whoever you want, as often as you'd like to.

You have agreed to allow your wife 50% of all your money and commit to monogamy with her, and in return she will do the same for you, by virtue of your marriage.

If this agreement isn't working for you, why punish her, especially if you love her? Terminate the agreement and walk away. Then you get everything you want, right?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Hmmmm, reading George Simon's webpage now, I'm wondering if she is actually a sadistic-covert-aggressive. You would have to read my earlier posts to get the full sense of her demeaning behavior. 

A little sense of it, we were in a smoothie bar the other day and I ordered something a little off the wall (grapefruit, strawberry, and cucumber). She makes this big deal out of it in front of the employees, and other customers. She was laughing at me like I was a stupid five year old. I ask her to knock it off and she just say's "oh you're just being over-sensitive" she was laughing, out loud for almost two minutes and making comments. It was incredibly demeaning. Finally, I just get up and walk out, and she's following along going "what, what, are you mad about that????" 

This is just one recent incident, the demeaning behavior goes back to the beginning of our marriage, including airing private and very personal information in very very public settings. Bringing up things about my childhood that I have only shared with her and are very painful for me, with her friends as points of humor. Also bringing up my first marriage my first wife's infidelity with her friends as a point of humor.

I guess what's making me so angry, is to realize that the game has been rigged all these years, that we don't want even remotely the same things in a relationship. What she appears to want is to "win" under any and all circumstances, and in most cases for her to "win" I must "lose". 

Now to answer Kathy B's question about me not questioning myself. Trust me, I do, I have tried to change everything, including taking less taxing work, spending more time with her and the kids (although I have always spent a lot of time with my kids), I've literally done everything I could to understand her "needs". 

I just think I was thinking about it all wrong, the only way I can fulfill her needs is by losing power struggles with her, her only real need is to win, at any cost. Sometimes this is by taking punishment (ie denial or demeanment) sometimes it is by giving up my own needs (friends, hobbies, growth), but it always about me losing. 

And trust me, there's not much else to give up, maybe why the behavior has ratcheted up recently, and why MAP/MMSL seem to have some affect on her behavior.

If I'm right about her being covert-aggressive, is there any way to recover this? I have a deep fear that all she will do is con the sh*t out of any MC, she is way way too good at this stuff.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Your situation sounds intolerable, do you really want to stay in the marriage?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I guess what's making me so angry, is to realize that the game has been rigged all these years, that we don't want even remotely the same things in a relationship. What she appears to want is to "win" under any and all circumstances, and in most cases for her to "win" I must "lose". "


And so YOUR contribution to the problem all these years was to accept it and roll over. And this is where that has gotten you.

You could have refused to accept her treatment, and left her.

The only power any of us has in marriage is the power to leave.

No, she likely isn't going to change. Why should she? You have remained married to her all this time, she knows you aren't going anywhere.

Unless...you actually do get up and leave. Then she might change her ways. But I wouldn't count on it.

And I'd leave either way.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Now to answer Kathy B's question about me not questioning myself. Trust me, I do, I have tried to change everything, including taking less taxing work, spending more time with her and the kids (although I have always spent a lot of time with my kids), I've literally done everything I could to understand her "needs".


I think I meant more along the lines of revealing what SHE considers your flaws to be, and questioning whether she might have some valid points that you could change in order to improve your relationship.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> The only power any of us has in marriage is the power to leave.


:iagree: Amen to that, Faithful. I found out the hard way that the only power I could exert in my marriage was over my own choices. And I chose to leave.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> B*t Sh*t Crazy


If you consider your wife bat shat crazy...do not expect to have sex with her. Sorry, but just no....especially if you actively call her this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> No one has the right to demand sex from anyone.





KathyBatesel said:


> Disagree. While he cannot force her to have sex, I think as her husband he has a reasonable expectation that this is also a part of the marriage contract, and he can demand it. Just as you can demand someone pays you money they owe, but you're not allowed to steal it from them.


He can stand there all day long and demand sex. She does not have to have sex with him no matter how much he demands it. 

When we owe someone money, there is a legal obligation to pay that money. If there is a note or other written agreement, the person we owe the money to can go to court and get a judgment to have the money taken from us.

No one owes sex in the way that a person owes money. Sure a person can demand sex. But there is no obligation for the other spouse to give it. The denied spouse cannot go to court to get a judgment for sex.

Legally, a person cannot demand sex from their spouse.

No don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that withhold sex is something a person should do. I’m just saying that sex cannot be legally demanded. Sure a person can verbally demand sex. They can jump up and down, pout and demand sex. But there is no way they can demand it legally.



EleGirl said:


> If your wife does not want sex with you it’s because there is either a problem in your relationship with her or it’s because she has a medical problem.





KathyBatesel said:


> Disagree. It *can* be because she's exerting control/power. In fact, sex has LONG been used in this way.


We agree. You just did not understand what I was saying. If person uses sex to exert control/power, there is problem in the marriage. 


KathyBatesel said:


> She doesn't have the moral authority to change the marriage contract either.


Two wrongs do not make a right. She is wrong in w/holding sex (as long as he is not doing something terrible to her that we are not aware of). If he withholds money he will be in the wrong.

Further, if she w/holds sex, the only thing he can do legally is to divorce her If he withholds money, she has legal recourse in that she can go to court and get 50% of the income. If power is an issue in the marriage, she is very likely to trump him, file for legal separation or divorce and that puts an end to his power play pretty quickly. I am trying to encourage him to not escalate this into a case where she gets the upper hand legally.



KathyBatesel said:


> I must have missed that post, but if he does think of her like this, then I definitely agree with your last paragraph: .


Here is what he said:



IronicSmile said:


> All the financial restraint does is acknowledge the new nature of the relationship, I wouldn't give my wh  re,or my maid free access to my checkbook after all...


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I think I meant more along the lines of revealing what SHE considers your flaws to be, and questioning whether she might have some valid points that you could change in order to improve your relationship.


Well, she has said repeatedly that I am selfish, but she seems to think that me going to work in the morning is a supreme act of selfishness, and really has treated it that way since she stopped working. And I have repeatedly taken jobs specifically so I could focus more time and energy on my family, things are great with our kids, the extra time just makes things worse btwn me and the spouse.

She thinks I don't help enough around the house, probably true. Early on, this was a major battle for us, as I would come home from working 12-15hrs and she would immediately attack me on this. Now we have three kids 15, 12, and 8 and they actually do most of the cleaning and laundry. She cooks and homeschools, not insignificant tasks, but certainly not overwhelming. I contribute to both areas, teaching certain subjects and cooking about once or twice a week, also I own anything outside (yardwork, cars, garage), and of course work 45-55 hrs/wk.

She thinks that I cheat on her because I travel frequently, and over the years I have been hit on fairly regularly (sometimes right in front of her), I have flirted back occasionally, but really all I ever wanted was for my wife to see me as attractive too. She seems to think that since women are attracted to me, I'm doing something overt to get their attention, I don't think I am, just being me. She doesn't flirt, or respond to flirting, so i really miss that. 

Actually worst of all she doesn't see me as attractive at all, a friend of hers recently saw me in a tight tee shirt and commented to her privately how fit I was, she later told me this story laughing that someone would see me as attractive at all. So instead of a nice compliment, she managed to turn it around by basically questioning her friend's judgement and sanity.

Finally she seems to have a deep conviction that I am just a really mean person in general. She doesn't acknowledge the connection between her behavior and my response behavior, and to be honest I struggle with it too as in "what comes first". The anger and frustration do boil over at times, but have been totally limited to arguments, and cold shoulder type behavior on both our parts. i've never touched her or even threatened her in any way. As far as "mean", I don't know, we argue and fight, we don't even curse at each other, or call each other names. Usually, I think, I'm just describing her behavior as I see it and asking why and what can I do?

Finally, she expects me to arrange entertainment for her, but when I try there is inevitably something wrong or some reason she can't enjoy it. I think I'm pretty open to anything, but mostly she just doesn't enjoy doing much. I golf, fish, hunt, sport-shoot, bowl, run, bicycle, enjoy eating out, enjoy theater, live music of almost any kind, weight lift, power boat, sail,....ok that's a long list, don't do all of that all the time but the truth is I'm up for anything. She seems to find reasons not to do almost any of that except eating out, and occasionally live-music.

I'm pretty frustrated with this, it seems like she's just sitting back "testing" my ability to keep her amused, and what she really enjoys is telling me I've failed.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

anony2 said:


> If you consider your wife bat shat crazy...do not expect to have sex with her. Sorry, but just no....especially if you actively call her this.


Dude, what is up with you people? Just because I type something on this forum doesn't mean I use the same term to talk to my wife. Please stop putting words and actions on me!

I don't call my wife BSC, this term is used in MMSL and other books/forums to describe someone for whom there is no fix or behavior that will suffice to normalize a relationship.

There is a big difference between talking about someone's behavior and calling them names, and just because I use the term BSC to describe her behavior and the situation don't assume that I'm abusing her by calling her names.

So just like in my earlier response where a poster states that i'm turning my marriage into "prostitution" and I respond. I'm not calling my wife a *****, I'm just stating that that seems to be what her behavior has turned our marriage relationship into. I'm not walking around the house telling her I think she's ***** because of her behavior, I'm not stupid, just frustrated.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Have just read my first post again "Being Pushed Away" from Jan 2012, I seem to have had a better perspective on my marriage at that point, ie not all of it had been so bad.

Maybe the last couple of years have shifted my memory a bit and I need to remember more that not all of the last 17 years have been torture.

Just surprised/startled to see how much my perspective on the course of my marriage has changed in 16 months.


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## Gruff (Feb 27, 2012)

Personally I would not be able to tolerate the behavior you describe coming from your wife, from my partner. If this is fundamentally her personality, I think divorce is the only solution.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Dude, what is up with you people? Just because I type something on this forum doesn't mean I use the same term to talk to my wife. Please stop putting words and actions on me!
> 
> I don't call my wife BSC, this term is used in MMSL and other books/forums to describe someone for whom there is no fix or behavior that will suffice to normalize a relationship.
> 
> ...




Dude, what part of "IF" did you not understand?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Gruff said:


> Personally I would not be able to tolerate the behavior you describe coming from your wife, from my partner. If this is fundamentally her personality, I think divorce is the only solution.


Yep, I'm there, this has to change, or I have to leave. Staying on these terms is insanity.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Two wrongs do not make a right. She is wrong in w/holding sex (as long as he is not doing something terrible to her that we are not aware of). If he withholds money he will be in the wrong.


I don't quite agree. I certainly counsel changing the dynamic in response to poor behavior. Some of that includes not working to meet their spouses needs when a person feels ignored. Most would agree that while it is wrong, in isolation, to intentionally not meet your spouses needs, it can be the correct thing to do.

Here, I disagree with using the money approach right away. I suggest the OP work on himself, and if he does not see positive changes, start pulling back on meeting her every need. At some point, it may be necessary for him to include money, though I think that is a last resort sort of thing.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> If I'm right about her being covert-aggressive, is there any way to recover this? I have a deep fear that all she will do is con the sh*t out of any MC, she is way way too good at this stuff.


Based on the mocking and demeaning you described, she sounds like my husband. A good MC will be able to see through it. 

But a good MC will also see through your issues and help you with those "disrespect buttons". You don't have to internalize barbs.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm starting to think, that all of this for the last two years has been intentional, that she is actively trying to get me to initiate a divorce.

I mean, as I look back at my first post, I realize it hasn't always been this terrible, it has just suddenly escalated to hell in the last two years or so. There have been symptoms all along, but we went through good and bad periods, I just assumed it was the normal course of a marriage.

Why have things ramped up? I'm home more than I've ever been in 18 years, I'm more focused on her and the kids than I've ever been. Why is it so miserable now?

If I take the view that she is a manipulator, then she thinks there is something to win by driving me out of the house? How does she win by getting me to initiate divorce? I don't get it?

I discussed in an earlier post that I thought she was having an EA with a family friend, so maybe that's it, or another EA that I don't know about. The EA lives close by, so maybe. She never admitted to it, although she acknowledged his EA behavior.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> I'm starting to think, that all of this for the last two years has been intentional, that she is actively trying to get me to initiate a divorce.
> 
> I mean, as I look back at my first post, I realize it hasn't always been this terrible, it has just suddenly escalated to hell in the last two years or so. There have been symptoms all along, but we went through good and bad periods, I just assumed it was the normal course of a marriage.
> 
> ...


Some who want a divorce don't want to be "the bad guy" so they manipulate their spouse into filing. Perhaps she's one.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> Have just read my first post again "Being Pushed Away" from Jan 2012, I seem to have had a better perspective on my marriage at that point, ie not all of it had been so bad.
> 
> Maybe the last couple of years have shifted my memory a bit and I need to remember more that not all of the last 17 years have been torture.
> 
> Just surprised/startled to see how much my perspective on the course of my marriage has changed in 16 months.


Again Marriage Help Program For Couples

and I'm not sure how constructive it is for you to read those books you have mentioned which are causing you to diagnose your wife with horrible hopeless psych issues...

If things were better for 15 previous years... I don't think hopeless psych issues are the problem. 

Now you may just be one of the many many people nowadays who don't want to do what can be hard and painful work on issues but prefer easy come easy go serial relationships. JFTR, I don't buy that the grass is greener. The grass is green where you water it and lots of watering happens in the early bliss stage of relationships.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> How does she win by getting me to initiate divorce? I don't get it?


Because then she can take a huge chunk of your income and not have to actually interact with you. From her viewpoint, your absence is the only difference.

Based on what you've written, it does sound like this is what's happening.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Actually worst of all she doesn't see me as attractive at all, a friend of hers recently saw me in a tight tee shirt and commented to her privately how fit I was, *she later told me this story laughing that someone would see me as attractive at all. * So instead of a nice compliment, she managed to turn it around by basically questioning her friend's judgement and sanity.


Something of this happened to me once in my marriage early on only if was in front of a group of people and likely the most humiliating experience of my life. I let my wife know if something of that nature ever happened again she would be served. Dude that is a deal breaker.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> You know, I think that's the most rational advice I've heard on here. Too much of the advice here seems to just justify the woman's behavior in one way or another.
> 
> Like above where someone basically tells me that I need to find out why I'm bad in bed and start with all of my failures as a man.
> 
> ...


I have six more pages if posts to read, but I cannot resist saying: I hear you. I am there too. And, the thing about the status quo being harmful for my kids became crystal clear the other day when, for the first time, my oldest (D13) had enough if DW mistreatment of me and argued pretty convincingly her mom was out of line.

I need to show them an unwillingness to accept less than I deserve.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

anony2 said:


> Dude, what part of "IF" did you not understand?


If you said something that could easily be interpreted as an accusation, don't be surprised if someone responds to it as if it was an accusation.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> I'm starting to think, that all of this for the last two years has been intentional, that she is actively trying to get me to initiate a divorce.
> 
> I mean, as I look back at my first post, I realize it hasn't always been this terrible, it has just suddenly escalated to hell in the last two years or so. There have been symptoms all along, but we went through good and bad periods, I just assumed it was the normal course of a marriage.
> 
> ...


Could it be it is feeling worse because you have been reading here for that time period, and the deadly and pointless cost of accepting this situation is getting harder and harder to evade. 

I worry about some folks here who are just discovering, or haven't yet discovered, that a better and fulfilling life is what they deserve, and Is in FACT within their range of possibilities. Including myself


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Now you may just be one of the many many people nowadays who don't want to do what can be hard and painful work on issues but prefer easy come easy go serial relationships.



Now you just may be of the people nowadays who...<bite my lip>


Really? Twenty years, much of it hell, and you suggest he's any easy-go kind if guy?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

IS,

Just finished reading the thread so far.

Frankly, I'm disappointed you had so many presumptions leveled against you, but I have seen this sort of thing happen before.

As I see it, the two versions of the experiment you proposed won't help. It will delay, if not preclude, any progress that might still be possible.

As an aside, I wonder if the presumptuousness dumped on you here would have been less if you had proposed splitting all your investments 50/50 and having 1/2 your paycheck direct deposited into an account controlled only by your wife, and the rest in your own private account.

As a second aside, I am newly pissed about my wife's separate
bank account my wife accumulates much savings from her limited income, whilst having almost no taxes withheld from her paychecks (read: paid to IRS by me). But I digress. 

My take on your words is that you were grasping at straws, seeking to find one thing you might be able to wave in front of your wife to get her see you exist. And, the only thing you think you have left to get her attention is money. I don't think you undervalue your wife's contribution because you are the money provider; i think you think the only possible value you may have left in her mind is that you are money provider. I don't think you think of your wife as a w*****, but you think she does not value you -- including your intangible contributions -- AT ALL. If that's how you feel, then i give you an "A" for trying to come up with something to shock her into seeing you, but give the plan an "F" for being a distraction and very high risk.

No one mentioned NMMNG. Please look up dr glover's web page if you haven't yet.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Now you just may be of the people nowadays who...<bite my lip>
> 
> 
> Really? Twenty years, much of it hell, and you suggest he's any easy-go kind if guy?


less than two bad years according to the OP

*not *20 years of hell

Sooo, do you work through the dip in hopes that the 15-17 good are more "normal" and will return? Or do you head for the next relationship and enjoy those early bliss years until you hit some snags in that relationship and then do it again...

QUOTE: Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married. 

Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2 source
​


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Blonde said:


> less than two bad years according to the OP
> 
> *not *20 years of hell
> 
> ...


Blonde,

The link "according to the OP" did not take me anywhere that seemed like you intended. Might be this darn Tapatalk app on my iPhone. Hopefully, OP can clarify the duration and his efforts, if he can and cares to defend against your accusation. But, the following post seems pretty clear that he has endured trouble for most of their time together, and other posts suggest he has not been failing to put in effort to solve:



IronicSmile said:


> Trust me i haven't waited a long time, I've been working on this for practically our entire marriage. Sometimes it gets better for a while, but in the last few years her behavior has become absolutely poisonous.
> 
> We go through these periods where everything she does seems designed to punish and humiliate me.
> 
> We dated for 4 years, sex life was awesome basically whenever and whatever, we were both very into it and very much enjoyed it. Then about 18 months into our marriage all of this **** started, has been off and on ugly ever since (basically since the first pregnancy).


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> Whew, you make a lot of assumptions there...I HAVE been desperately looking in the mirror for 17 years. I've done everything humanly possible to accommodate, including giving her space without complaint, seeking counseling, showering her with nonsexual affection for months on end.
> 
> I've tried just about every thing that I could, including MAP & MMSL, which did help some....
> 
> ...


Blonde,

I don't understand how you could have missed the extremely long duration of their problems and OP working to fix it. The message quoted here was a direct response to you -- and, included a quote of one if your posts.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> If you said something that could easily be interpreted as an accusation, don't be surprised if someone responds to it as if it was an accusation.


Had I done that, you would have a valid point, but I didn't. 

I put IF there for a reason. IF a person thinks that their spouse is bat **** crazy, WHY would they want to continue to have sex with them in the first place?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

This is the quote Blonde was referring to 



> Have just read my first post again "Being Pushed Away" from Jan 2012, I seem to have had a better perspective on my marriage at that point, ie not all of it had been so bad.
> 
> Maybe the last couple of years have shifted my memory a bit and I need to remember more that not all of the last 17 years have been torture.
> 
> Just surprised/startled to see how much my perspective on the course of my marriage has changed in 16 months.


I


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Lyris said:


> This is the quote Blonde was referring to
> 
> 
> I


Ah, thanks, Lyris. I see now how there could be confusion. Maybe OP will clarify, if he wishes, when and if it becomes clear enough in his head (if it's not already).

Still, I feel Blonde was being accusatory in her suggestion that he *might* be an easy-go sort if guy. Maybe she meant to be accusatory, maybe not. Either way, that is her business.

If she wasn't meaning to be accusatory, then, fwiw, i misunderstood; it sounded to me like a covert accusation, veiled by the "might". Call me Mr. Sensitive, but the context of this thread, as I see it, includes folks making presumptions/accusations about OP, and already OP, rightly or wrongly, has gotten defensive. If we are here to help, maybe we can choose words that are less likely to be heard the wrong way. 

Then again, maybe it's just me.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Well, she has said repeatedly that I am selfish, but she seems to think that me going to work in the morning is a supreme act of selfishness, and really has treated it that way since she stopped working. And I have repeatedly taken jobs specifically so I could focus more time and energy on my family, things are great with our kids, the extra time just makes things worse btwn me and the spouse.
> 
> She thinks I don't help enough around the house, probably true. Early on, this was a major battle for us, as I would come home from working 12-15hrs and she would immediately attack me on this. Now we have three kids 15, 12, and 8 and they actually do most of the cleaning and laundry. She cooks and homeschools, not insignificant tasks, but certainly not overwhelming. I contribute to both areas, teaching certain subjects and cooking about once or twice a week, also I own anything outside (yardwork, cars, garage), and of course work 45-55 hrs/wk.
> 
> ...


So she thinks she has too much to do? Take things off her plate. Send the kids to public school, get a cleaning lady, etc. Deduct the cost from what she can spend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Blonde,
> 
> The link "according to the OP"


Post #111



IronicSmile said:


> Have just read my first post again "Being Pushed Away" from Jan 2012, I seem to have had a better perspective on my marriage at that point, ie not all of it had been so bad.
> 
> Maybe the last couple of years have shifted my memory a bit and I need to remember more that not all of the last 17 years have been torture.
> 
> Just surprised/startled to see how much my perspective on the course of my marriage has changed in 16 months.


I hear that as the last 16 months have been bad and clouded his view of the entire marriage which was more satisfying in the first 15 years.

But I could be hearing wrong...


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm more alarmed about the generalizations and assumptions thrown the OP's way than I am about any of his posts.

Sometimes when a poster comes here it's not their fault. Their problems really are being caused by their other half. 

OP, sometimes you can't fix a relationship where their is a clear lack of respect. So you either resolve to stay in that hell or you move on. All of this advice being given for you to somehow change yourself is more than likely going to fail. If she doesn't care anyways you're changing yourself for no reason.


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