# Words really do hurt....



## Muddled Thinking (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi, all. I've been lurking around here on and off for the last couple of weeks, and there's a wealth of information on this site. I've finally gotten myself to the point that I would like some anonymous opinions on my situation, so here goes.

I met my wife about 10 years ago, and we have been married for 3 1/2 of those ten. I have always known that she had a bit of a temper at times, but I never thought that she would ever turn it against me. After reading some of the posts in the Men's Clubhouse, I realize that I was playing the nice guy. 

I won't bore with details here, but there were a couple things that occurred in our marriage that made things rough, but it wasn't anything that I thought we couldn't work through. Over the course of the last couple of years, whenever we would argue she would scream at me, tell me how selfish I was, and even sometimes throw things at me.......leading up to her kicking and punching me (not enough to really hurt, though) and having her hands around my throat at one point. 

This all leads me to the real issue. In the last two years, on three different occasions, while she has been screaming at she told me that she hated me, how I ruined her life, and how she was going to leave (she never did). A few days after the first time she told me she hated me, I told her that this really hurt my feelings and she blew it off and never apologized. I am of the opinion that no matter what, saying "I hate you" is a line you don't cross when you are married with someone.

So after seeing a therapist a few times, I decided that I needed to stand up for myself and give up walking around on eggshells all the time. So in two different conversations, I explained to her that I was tired of being unhappy and that I was willing to go to marriage counseling. Without hesitation, she replied "You don't have health insurance and we can't afford it." I asked her what her suggestion was and she said "I guess we just end it." After breaking my heart by saying "I hate you" suggesting that we go to therapy was my last ditch effort and when she said no I admit I gave up.

Well, it's been over a week now since I talked to her about leaving. Now that she sees that I was serious, she has went into desperation mode by telling me she wants to work on this, that she was sorry she said that (adding that she didn't think it hurt me that bad, but at least she apologized), and has moped around the apartment ever since. I have slept in a separate bed, she took her wedding rings off first......to which I did the same. When she wanted to come back from where she was staying, she told me that she would now go to counseling, but it also came out later that her father offered to pay for it. I can't help but wonder if she's only agreeing to it because he said that.....which also means that I'm pretty much forced into doing it or else I look like a real jerk.

The issue is, my suggestion of counseling was the final nail in the coffin for me. I'm not saying I don't care about my wife anymore, but I know deep down that I'm never going to forgive her for what she said and I'm never going to forget it, either. I just don't know what what to do here because I don't really think she's going to change, and I'm not sure that I want to wait around until she does.

I know this was a long post, and while I'm not sorry it was long......I do appreciate anyone that reads the entire thing and responds. If you have any questions, feel free to ask as I sometimes brush over details that might be important.


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## BigToe (Jun 2, 2011)

Well you don't say whether you COULD afford counseling or not. If she was correct that you couldn't then I think your concern about her going to counseling just because her father was paying for it is a "straw man" argument (doesn't stand up).

It also seems to me that if she really didn't care about you or the marriage then her father offering to pay wouldn't matter at all and she would make some other excuse not to go.

It sounds like maybe you have given up and don't want to go to counseling now. Regardless of why she didn't want to go to counseling originally, she does now. So you are right, YOU have no reason not to unless you just want to give up and end the marriage.

People do say hurtful things during an argument. That's something you can work on in counseling. Even though you said it to this forum and not to her (my assumption), you saying she is now agreeing to counseling because of "desperation" is pretty hurtful and vengeful considering you are the one that asked for it.

Forget what she said and go to counseling.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Sounds like you want to hold a grudge. Not good. Get a sincere apology out of her and forgive her. I's the onlu responsible way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muddled Thinking (Jun 22, 2011)

BigToe, we don't have a lot of money to throw around, but I know for a fact that we could have made something work. What I guess I'm trying to get at is that the words I hate you have just as powerful of a meaning as the words I love you do. A person can only be expected to take so much before it becomes too much.

Ten year, I understand where you are coming from, but can you really blame me for holding a grudge? Granted, I know it's not the best way to go about it, but I know I'm not perfect. My feeling is, how do I know that she's honestly sorry? Why should I risk being kicked in the teeth again if I'm not sure?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am one of these people who Feels anything can be forgiven, including words spoken in a heated argument. Not saying it is OK , but haven't you EVER hurt anyone *with words *, let something slip that you wanted to take back desperately- realizing after the fact "DAMN, what was I thinking, that was so EVIL of me, I didnt mean it like that" & need to go to that person and humble yourself asking for their forgiveness ? Granted, it sounds your wife has made a HABIT out of this type of behavior - without the apologies (this would be more of an issue for me).

She likely needs some professional help. To be reacting this strongly when you fight. 


Yes, the 3 words were atrocious, but other things could be worse, like having an affair. Many can forive this, words are little in comparison. 

If you feel her heart is sincere this time around -FINALLY, then go to Counceling. I would think it would be WORTH IT -to dissect what has brought you both to this place of madness- if you can not figure it out on your own. Open it up, get it on the table and see what you have left, if anything to work with. Giving it one last go --that is, if your heart is still up for it .


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My forgiveness would be as wide and as deep as her apology. No more no less. My wife has said things to me are beyond cruel, they're psychotically evil. I am willing to negotiate forgiveness based or her willingness to ever broach the subject of 'I'm sorry'. Since I haven't heard that yet, no forgiveness. And since forgiveness is really for the other person, not for YOU, I am ok with that.


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## BigToe (Jun 2, 2011)

Muddled Thinking said:


> BigToe, we don't have a lot of money to throw around, but I know for a fact that we could have made something work. What I guess I'm trying to get at is that the words I hate you have just as powerful of a meaning as the words I love you do. A person can only be expected to take so much before it becomes too much.


I agree with everything you said. But you were also correct to attempt counseling to see if you can work out the issues with the harsh words. Now that she has committed to going, I think you have an obligation to see if you can work things out. You might be pleasantly surprised.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Do the counseling. Let her dad pay for it if that's what it takes. What have you got to lose? If it helps you to repair what's been broken, terrific. If it doesn't, you know where you stamnd, with no regrets or 'what-if' thoughts down the road.

When you go, put it all on the table, be totally open and completely honest about everything, including the fact that you feel that perhaps you've already given up, based on her anger and outburst issues. Decide, before you go, what you want from her IF there's going to be any possibility of this marriage working out moving forward. Write it down if you need to, and then let it be known. Also let it be known what you will no longer be doing (as Mr Nice Guy). It's your chance for getting what you want, why not take it with an open mind and see what happens?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

2xloser said:


> When you go, put it all on the table, be totally open and completely honest about everything, including the fact that you feel that perhaps you've already given up, based on her anger and outburst issues. Decide, before you go, what you want from her IF there's going to be any possibility of this marriage working out moving forward.


:iagree:

You need to be totally honest with her about how you feel. If you want to work i tout with her, you will have to get past this for sure and make it clear that you are NOT down with her saying those awful things to you. Maybe you guys can have a SAFE word that you use in an argument so that it doesn't get derailed and get bad.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Assuming you're ok with her saying "That's what I meant all along. I hate you and I'm glad you're scarred for life". Which I give about a 40% probability.


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## orangyred (May 6, 2011)

Someone mentioned that people say what they don't mean when they are mad/upset. That's true with me. I have a bit of a temper myself and I have said some hateful things to my husband when I'm super mad. I sure feel like I mean them at the time, but later when I'm less upset I know I don't mean them at all. Thankfully my husband realizes this and just dismisses it. 

I'm lucky that way.

On the other hand I also know if someone said that they hated me and stuff I'd be really upset. I'm not as forgiving and tend to hold grudges. 

But I realize that is only part of the issue here with you. There is much more going on. The way she has responded sure doesn't sound like someone willing to make it work, but I really don't know. Maybe talking to her dad did help. Sometimes I need an outside source to let me know what an idiot I've been.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Of course it matters little what they say, it's what you're sure they BELIEVE is what is crucial. My wife talks **** all day to everyone, to me, about me, about everything. What she truly believes though is way scarier and dark and painful.


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## 4sure (Aug 8, 2010)

I hate you, sounds like something a child would say when they don't get their way. I would see it as her throwing a tantrum to get her way. If she says it again, pick up your keys, and walk out ending the arguement. 

Allow her dad to pay for her to get counseling, and don't feel like a jerk. Thank him for his kindness.


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## Muddled Thinking (Jun 22, 2011)

I understand what you're all getting at here, but to be honest, in order to make my OP slightly shorter I left out some details. During her screaming fits, she has sometimes thrown things (sometimes at me, sometimes not), she has kicked me, hit me, even had her hands around my throat once. My next question to everyone here would be this......why is there a double standard when it comes to this kind of behavior? If I was a woman, I feel I would get told to get out now, but since I'm a man I feel that I have to stick around because I should be able to take it.

I suppose I should have said this stuff before, but I was just wondering what the answers would be based on just the words alone.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

You did mention it, actually - and I guess it's slightly strange no-one picked up on it but maybe that's cos you were asking very specifically about the words. 
For me, words are more hurtful in many ways than physical stuff because though bruises go away, the mind replays and replays both words and actions but the words are what stick - if you let them, of course. 
The double standard mentioned is something I relate to, having put up with my OH's vile outbursts for ages and always forgiven/worked past, I got upset and took my engagement ring off, put it in front of him and told him to stick it where the sun don't shine. He took it, put it in the bank and it's never been seen again. Essentially despite pointing out the irony (or whatever part of speech) of me letting things go yet the very first time I say something so 'final' he absolutely will not let us move past it.... well...... 
Back to the OP (sorry!) 
I agree with others. Take up your fil's offer. Thank him. If you have spoken to him about your problems it's up to you whether you outline what you hope to achieve. Maybe not needed given counselling suggests both problems and a willingness to do something about resolving the situation. 
Be straight with your wife about your feelings, and be straight at the session(s). There's clearly no point messing about because you may indeed have mentally checked out so why protract things.. though if the sessions give you reason to hope for your relationship, honesty is by far the best way forward. 
Good luck

_(oh, and I agree about the double standard ref women/men/violence, and that should be dealt with at the counselling too)_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> My forgiveness would be as wide and as deep as her apology. No more no less. My wife has said things to me are beyond cruel, they're psychotically evil. I am willing to negotiate forgiveness based or her willingness to ever broach the subject of 'I'm sorry'. Since I haven't heard that yet, no forgiveness. And since forgiveness is really for the other person, not for YOU, I am ok with that.


I thoroughly enjoy your posts and often chuckle while reading them.

But your last statement if I understand it correctly surely is not correct. Forgiveness truly is for the person doing the forgiving. There are sound reasons for this, one being that hatred can bind you to another person as much as love for them can. People that don’t forgive just become self made victims.

Why on earth would you stay with a person you hold grudges against such that you cannot forgive them unless they ask you to? That’s beyond me, I don’t know how people can do that.


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