# lonliness to pornography to an affair?



## Introubledeep

I have never done this before, not sure why I am doing this now, I know I am in trouble deep, I guess I am hoping against hope that somebody can help me.

I am a Christian man, or at least strive to be. Fallen and sinful, but redeemed by the grace of Jesus (sorry to the non-religious if you find this offensive).

I have been married for 15 years. I have an 8 year old daughter.

After my daughter was born, my wife has always slept in bed with my daughter. She does not care if I sleep in the same bed or not, and there simply is not enough room for the 3 of us. Most nights I sleep alone in a single bed.

I have gone through several periods of up to 2 years without any sexual relationship with my wife, not because I want it this way, she simply refuses to sleep with me. For the last 5 years we probably have sex about once every 6 months, and she never initiates it, and she usually rejects my advances. I have almost given up trying. In fact she often shums my attempts to hug or kiss her. I am a normal man with normal sex drives, I basically need sexual intimacey once or twice a week most weeks to be content, and more often would be nice. Is that excessive?

In desperation I guess, I resorted to viewing pornography and masturbating to find some relief. I am very dissappointed in myself, but the lonliness is too much for me to bear, and I am not wanting to have an affair. I go through periods of feeling ashamed and I don't view pornography for periods of up to 6 months, and then I succumb again. I feel perverted, but I need some sexual outlet. I am hurting, but my wife seems completely oblivious to my needs and my suffering.

My wife has stated a number of times that since our daughter was born, she realises how much more important my daughter is to her than I am. 

Strangely, in most other respects my wife and I have a good relationship, we share some common interests and talk about all sorts of things, and do quite a few things together, and we only argue and fight occasionally (never physical, just verbal).

About 2 years ago I met a lady who I simply clicked with. Actually it felt more like an atomic bomb going off in my heart, I don't recall feeling such attraction for a woman ever, and it hit me out of the blue. I never ever entertained the idea of looking for an affair. I resisted and ignored this potential friendship/affair for almost 2 years. However, in the last month we have started sending SMS messages to each other almost everyday, nothing dirty or overtly wrong, but subtley expressing affection and desire for each other.

The urge to run with this relationship is becoming overwhelming. As ashamed as I am, if I am honest, I want to have a secret love affair with this woman. I know it is wrong, I know it is immoral, I know it is destructive, I know it would destroy my wife and my daughter if they knew, I know it won't bring long term happiness, but the urge is OVERWHELMING. This is insanity, I know it is insanity, but I am finding the temptation overwhelming.

I do not want to destroy my family, and betray my christian faith, and break my marriage vows, and have to live a double life of deceit.

I am truelly in trouble deep. Any help or suggestions?

To any ladies reading this, please don't judge me as some weirdo pervert. Men really truelly do need a healthy sexual relationship, and it is very very destructive and hurtful to deprive your husbands of it. The pain I feel is every bit as real as many women feel when they are emotionally abused by their husbands.


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## PBear

Your wife is telling you very clearly that at best, you'll be her room-mate, friend, and provider. She also apparently has no respect for your feelings or needs; even less than she would for a friend. Not her husband and lover. It's up to you now to decide if that's acceptable to you. Personally, to me it would not be.

Leave the other woman out of it until you make your decision about your marriage. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

My husband went from feeling 'isolated and alone' (his words) to porn to sex chatting to paying for escorts to emotionally cheating to hiring a hooker. Sex wasn't our issue, intimacy was. Neither of us had any use for the other. I was a horrible wife and he was a horrible husband.

If I could go back in time I would INSIST that we go to counseling, or split up. There are 4 choices when you're in a bad marriage.
1) Just keep going on as you have been
2) Get help
3) Divorce
4) Cheat
Sounds like she chose option 1 and you chose option 4. The least desirable choices!!!!


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## heavensangel

PBear said:


> Leave the other woman out of it until you make your decision about your marriage.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I totally agree with this statement. The OW needs to be out of the picture while you figure out what you want to do. 

I don't remember you mentioning whether or not your wife was a Christian. If so, then I have to believe she understands how GOD designed marriage to work. Have you sat down with her and explained in detail what your needs are? How much pain you're in being that 'she's' decided to put you & your needs on the back burner. GOD does not tell us, as parents, that our children are to come first; he quite clearly states that after Him, our spouses should take priority over everyone/anything else. 

Before you do anything, particularly in the form of an A, you owe it to yourself, your wife, and your daughter to talk to your wife and be upfront about what you're going through. I would even suggest MC for both of you. Is this something your W would be willing to do?


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## hisfac

Tell her if the sex doesn't pick up then you're going to file for divorce.

At least that way you've given her the benefit of a fair warning.

She won't change of course, then you can proceed to file, get divorced (or at least legally separated on the way to divorce), you can move out and go screw this other woman and be very justified and guilt free in doing so.

That's the upfront, honest, fair way to get the job done. Many cheaters have the right idea, and understandable motives, they just get it backwards most of the time and put the cart before the horse.

End relationship 1. Start relationship 2. In that order. That's what the numbers are for. 

Regardless of what Jesus says.


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## Introubledeep

Thanks everyone for your input, I truelly appreciate it. "Girl next door", I believe that our god has placed you here at this time, Best advice yet, first post I see, I know there is divine intervention. Many thanks for your understanding and compassion. I am ashamed and hurting, I needed your compassion. I will contact Focus on the Family if I can, or another Christian based Counselling service.

I don't know if my wife will cooperate or not with Counselling. She is a Christian, but really struggles with any sort of correction/suggestion/guidance/criticism. She does not attend church, she was offended when someone tried to speak to her about an entirely different matter and will not go back. (This attitude is a big part of our problem!)

As for my worst choice to cheat...if I had already decided to do that, would I be here pouring my heart out? Am I tempted...you bet...the urge is burning me up! Am I perverted in my heart...absolutely to the core, to every fibre of my DNA...there is nothing good in me, I am human, I am a fallen and faulty being. Judge me if you wish, I have no defence, I am 100% guilty. But you know what, I am a child of the living god, redeemed by his blood. Sinful to the core, yet forgiven by the incredible overwhelming and VAST grace and forgiveness of Jesus. I here you say "How dare you preach hypocrite", yes I am a hypocrite, but my god is pure and good to the core regardles of how much of a failure I am...and a massive failure I truelly am.

Will I sin again? Guaranteed! Will I come out of this dark place with my marriage and fidelity (at least physical fidelity...too late for the mental and spiritual part) in tact. God knows, but I am trying! Will I be able to purify my heart to once again love my wife only, and love her sincerely, I sure hope so and I want to.

Today I sent an email to the OW telling her I won''t be contacting her for a few days because I need to let my emotions cool and think things through. I told her that our friendship has serious implications for a married man like me. You can ridicule me if you like, but it is a step in the right direction, a start. God give me the courage to end it for good and commit my heart to restoring things with my wife. I don't know if I am going to make it, but I am sure going to try.


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## hisfac

Introubledeep said:


> Will I sin again? Guaranteed! Will I come out of this dark place with my marriage and fidelity (at least physical fidelity...too late for the mental and spiritual part) in tact. God knows, but I am trying! Will I be able to purify my heart to once again love my wife only, and love her sincerely, I sure hope so and I want to...God give me the courage to end it for good and commit my heart to restoring things with my wife. I don't know if I am going to make it, but I am sure going to try.


These sorts of posts confuse the heck out of me. On one hand, as you put it, "God gave you strength to end the affair", yet you are guaranteed to sin again. Aren't you worried about going to Hell? Is it simply a matter of doing all the sinning that you have planned in this life and then when it's getting closer to the end get forgiven and it's all good?

I get the same reaction when I see tv shows such as when a convicted serial killer is blessed by the priest and given forgiveness for all the murders right before they give him the lethal injection.

In that case what's the point of even trying to be a good Christian or whatever, since you're going to get a free pass at the end no matter what you did?


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## Hope1964

Introubledeep said:


> As for my worst choice to cheat...if I had already decided to do that, would I be here pouring my heart out?


You DID cheat. Are you equating cheating with intercourse? Because you do NOT have to have had intercourse to have cheated.

Do you plan on confessing to your wife?


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## Introubledeep

Hope1964 said:


> You DID cheat. Are you equating cheating with intercourse? Because you do NOT have to have had intercourse to have cheated.
> 
> Do you plan on confessing to your wife?


Can't argue with you, you are right, cheating is not just physical intimacy, seeking love affection and comfort from another woman that you should be seeking from your wife is cheating. Isn't gaining sexual satisfaction from viewing pornography and masturbating cheating also? Take it one step further, isn't it cheating to look at another woman and lust for her in your heart even if you take no action at all? If that is the measure, Yes I am 100% guilty. I would hazard a pretty safe guess that all men have failed to some degree(and if not, I want to know if he is alive?!)

I don't know anybody, neither man or woman, who constantly loves their partner as they should. Taking the extreme moral high ground, the bible says that when you hate somebody you commit murder in your heart. You don't actually have to physically kill somebody to commit murder in your heart. How many times have you murdered your husband in your heart? 

In the real practical world, there should be room for compassion and understanding for people who think and feel wrong things, but do not take wrong actions. All the more for people who know their thought life is wrong and they want to change.

Can I live without making the odd slip up...nope. Do I want to charge down the wrong path at full speed...nope. 

I know now that Viewing pornography was a band aid for my hurting, not a solution. Is there any wonder that things didn't improve in my relationship? I didn't hear the bell, the wake up call...we males are pretty dense at times. When I found myself in a real life relationship (albeit it mostly in text) and my emotions suddenly ran out of control for a week, I finally heard the bell, the wake up call. I am very dense I know!

Will I confess to my wife? Good question...very very good question. And confess to what exactly, just the text relationship? The pornography as well? The pain I feel? The emptiness inside of me? The desire to be close to my wife? 

Will it help heal our emotional distance? Will it make her more willing to talk things through (probably not I am guessing, but who knows?). Perhaps I need to drop the whole story on her to be her wake up call that things are not all OK. Any thoughts?


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## COguy

Your marriage will not get better if you do not do both of these things:

1. End completely the relationship with this other woman. Not for "a few days" but 100% for good. Do not dance around the issue, this relationship is a detriment to your marriage. If you want to resume it after a divorce go ahead.

2. You need to discuss your problems with your wife. She thinks you're walking around just fine because you aren't saying anything to her. No, moping around because you did not have sex with her is not the message. Stand strong, and let her know that the relationship as is is not acceptable.

I would do this and then come clean about what's been going on. The porn, the other woman, everything. Tell her you do not like the man you have become, but also can not accept to be roommates with the woman who is supposed to be the only one in the world that can meet your needs. Let her know that you will work to be a better husband, if she can begin working to meet your needs in this area.


My personal advice. God invented sex, he wants you to have it. He wants you to have a whole bunch of it. By accepting things as they are and not fighting for how they should be, you quietly lose your manhood every day. Stand up for what's right. Not as a jerk, but as a man who knows his marriage should be strong and healthy. Work to be the best husband you can be, ignite the passion in your wife. You might want to read Married Men Sex Life or No More Mr. Nice Guy. They are not christian books, you'll have to read them with goggles on, but the methodology and actions are right on.

Also, it is not healthy, nor should you accept, that your wife puts your daughter before you. In a healthy family, God comes first, then the marriage, then the children. Children can not be put before a marriage, because if they are, there won't be a family to raise them. Both you and your wife need to focus on eachother, make time for eachother.

At the end of the day, your wife will not change unless she has a reason to. If you accept a crappy marriage, that is all you will receive. If you demand a better one, you will get it. Maybe that means you have to split, but at least you gave it a shot. Simply getting in an affair is the worst choice that you can make.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Introubledeep said *:Can't argue with you, you are right, cheating is not just physical intimacy, seeking love affection and comfort from another woman that you should be seeking from your wife is cheating. Isn't gaining sexual satisfaction from viewing pornography and masturbating cheating also? Take it one step further, isn't it cheating to look at another woman and lust for her in your heart even if you take no action at all? If that is the measure, Yes I am 100% guilty. I would hazard a pretty safe guess that all men have failed to some degree(and if not, I want to know if he is alive?!)
> 
> I don't know anybody, neither man or woman, who constantly loves their partner as they should. Taking the extreme moral high ground, the bible says that when you hate somebody you commit murder in your heart. You don't actually have to physically kill somebody to commit murder in your heart. How many times have you murdered your husband in your heart?
> 
> In the real practical world, there should be room for compassion and understanding for people who think and feel wrong things, but do not take wrong actions. All the more for people who know their thought life is wrong and they want to change.


This thread makes me a little angry, reading some of these replies, I feel a fire burning under me. :FIREdevil: How dare some of us judge you , how dare. I am nobody, but I see a grave grave misjustice that has been done to YOU , as a husband, as a man. 

Your wife has contributed to this situation terribly. You would not be here writing this post in desperation if it was not for what she started. Any man, I repeat ... ANY MAN with a healthy dose of testosterone running through his veins ..... Christian or non would be ripe for temptation here. And falling into some porn.....I know it is against your beliefs.... but we are all human... I've read enough about testosterone to know how this AFFECTS the brain... ....this is our lust hormone. Christian or not, you will feel & struggle with it's effects the same, it has men by the balls. You will just take on MORE guilt & shame for giving into it's desirous grip....when you masterbate while looking at some eroticism online.....You desire this in your marriaige... with everything in you... as you should !

What does everyone expect you to do here...think of your sexy frigid wife who might as well have a chastity belt strapped on ...thumbing her nose at you ...How exciting that would be! 

She has thrown you to the dogs. How women expect their husbands to not stray under this -kinda drives me a little over the edge. 

I am not a Christian anymore (my theology is just more Deistic..I'm still decently moral but not as stringent as believers expect us to be)....I hope you'll consider my thoughs anyway.... 

Christianity only hindered ME sexually where I hurt my own husband... I was dumb enough to sleep with every baby we had in our 30's between us (we had 5 in 10 yrs after yrs of inferitlity)... sometimes he even choose to sleep on the floor -- hurting , feeling less loved, resentment grew. I think the only thing that saved him from insanity was...... I had a healthy sex drive and I NEEDED it at least once a week or I'd be chasing him down. I was always an initiator....He was very passive...He didn't want to bother me. We were both kinda repressed due to religious teachings... & we never talked about sex. These are my only regrets in my marriage. We all have our stories. I am a changed woman NOW. 

I have a hard time stomaching wives who carelessly do this to their GOOD husbands.... it reminds me of the pain I did to mine. 

I love Coguys post (more calm than mine)....You need to come clean with your wife.... all of it ...this will bust this allure for this other woman wide open....trust me.... somehow the feelings you feel will not be the same once this is exposed into the light. 

Your wife deserves to KNOW, she needed to know all along here where your heart was headed due to her leaving you thirsting in the desert. If she is worth any salt at all... she'll look to herself and see her own hand in what led you to this place of weakness... If she wants to play the Blame game, acting like you are the BIG dirty sinner here... the unfaithful one.....she is completely & utterly unreasonable ... in my opionion, she does not understand human nature and she thinks she is "perfect", completely overlooking her own faults. 

We are all fallable, weak, and have moments of wrong thinking .....MOST ESPECIALLY when our needs are not being met . If you rise above this , you are a better person that most, frankly.. I wouldn't even want to be married to that type, they are impossible to talk too and be REAL with ...heck, you might as well through vulnerability out the window, such marraiges can not thrive. 

I applaud your honesty in these posts....and for holding back when your DNA is screaming . This definitely counts for something. When you can admit your faults to yourself..and to others... you are "workable" there is hope for change. When someone shoves them under the rug.. denys them, this is harder to deal with, it is a road block. Let's hope your wife doesn't do that to you. 

I did a thread on transparency within marriage -- this is what is needed here. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...parency-what-means-our-marraige-what-you.html Some excellent links at the bottom of my original post ( a Christain "Focus on the Family" link even )

You did not cheat -YET . 




> I have gone through several periods of up to 2 years without any sexual relationship with my wife, not because I want it this way, she simply refuses to sleep with me. For the last 5 years we probably have sex about once every 6 months, and she never initiates it, and she usually rejects my advances. I have almost given up trying. In fact she often shums my attempts to hug or kiss her.


 I would NEVER blame my husband if I was acting like her...my lord ...6 months ....no sex... she rejects you at every turn !! then telling you your daughter is more important than you are !!

You are not insane, you are simply.... human... you are a man with sexual needs, you have been rejected, pushed aside, you are screaming inside for affection , touch, the warmth of a woman. Another Focus on the Family article here...read what it says about the lure of porn. 

Sex Is an Emotional Need - Focus on the Family

I can not even imagine the resentment built up you must have towards her... how could you not! 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html

Sex may make up less than 10% of a marriage, but when you are not getting it.. make no mistake... it becomes 90% of the issues.



> I don't know if my wife will cooperate or not with Counselling. She is a Christian, but really struggles with any sort of correction/suggestion/guidance/criticism. She does not attend church, she was offended when someone tried to speak to her about an entirely different matter and will not go back. (This attitude is a big part of our problem!)



This really speaks alot. This is just not good. She needs to understand she can loose you. This is no way to be, she wants to be right at every turn, not forgiving...I can see why you are having problems. 


I understand christians are against divorce, but raising children in a marriage that is devoid of sexual fullfillment ...and only roommatism is also not an answer, the children will feel the tension, the resentment seething under the surface, their whole view of what marraige should be ...will be tainted.


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## SimplyAmorous

Here are some links to what Coguy mentioned.. 

Many helpful articles on this blog site : Married Man Sex Life: Why And How Nice Guys Strategize To Screw Themselves Out Of Sex And Happiness

 The Married Man Sex Life Primer Book 

No More Mr Nice Guy book

I am the wife, I bought both of these books out of sheer curiosity - I think they are both great and very helpful - for not allowing the wife to run the show, she will have more RESPECT for you as a man... and with respect ....often comes more "attraction".


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## Introubledeep

Thank you simplyamorous and Coguy. Thank you for your compassion and understanding. You are precious people. I don't need any convincing that I am in the wrong place in my heart, and I didn't come here for absolution, I came here for practical advice and you have given me some good stuff to think about and work on. I will get the books you mentioned and read the articles you linked. 

As for the OW, deliberately avoiding all contact, and emotions are cooling and brain is starting to kick in. Beginning to think with my head now instead of my emotions. Gotta get my head and heart into the place where this is 100% over before I attempt the break or I am gonna fold like a pack of cards. Its still very much a work in progress...but I think I will get there soon. I am so glad I did not get sexually involved with her, that would make the break close to impossible I think. Any thoughts on how to steel oneself?

I am about to phone a marriage counsellor...no idea what to say or what to do, but I gotta try. Girlnextdoor (really precious person) told me about Focus on the Family, I am going to give them a call. I think (?) I need to talk one on one first to understand what the counselor might do and how it works, and to discuss how to bring up the issue with my wife. Is that how it works?  This is all new and strange to me. My heart is pounding. Here goes!


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## Introubledeep

I did it. I have an appointment to see a marriage counsellor, just me this time...I don't know what happens next. They already helped with some really good advice on how to discuss this with my wife. 

We are creatures of habit I guess, I caught myself saying "I don't need this, I am wasting my family's money, I am making a huge drama over nothing", so used to ignoring my emotional needs. 

I guess it is an occupational hazard, I work in a highly dangerous industry where I regularly face danger/stressful/traumatising situations and I am so used to pushing emotional crap aside and getting on with the job. Losing control of emotions on the job could cost the life of me or my brothers in arms, and I guess this has probably carried on into my married life. Obviously not a very healthy approach. 

Strange isn't it, I regularly face life threatening and dangerous situations at work, and I am afraid of facing up to my emotional crap and my wife. My wife is tiny and she isn't even armed with a weapon, yet she can put the fear of god into me. Go figure:scratchhead:My message to any women out there, never underestimate just how much your man needs you to be there and showing care and compassion (which to a male includes the sexual side of the relationship), even if he can't express it to you. (us males are dumb asses aren't we).


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## COguy

What I found in my marriage is that by holding in my emotions I was actually driving away my wife. She wanted nothing more than for me to share what I was feeling. Now that I am more vocal about my needs and desires, we are much closer. It's a healthier relationship too. You can't beemotionally attached to someone who doesn't share there feelings and that's very important to women for sexual desire. That means making yourself vulnerable to rejection, which is another topic SimplyAmorous can tell you about.


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## Introubledeep

I broke it off with the other woman...not that there was really anything much to break off...(a few weeks of sending texts, a sandwich together once in a sandwich shop, a week or two of my emotions spiralling out of control). I made it clear to her that I am going to try and work things out with my wife and she has no place in this. I don't think there is any going back now...not unless I am completely stupid.

I have an appointment to see a marriage counsellor next week. 

I feel a great sense of relief now. Strange thing is that I have reached the place where I can't go on anymore in a lonely emotional desert longing for the water of love, and over the next year or two I am either going to fix my marriage or end it. 

Quite frankly, either outcome looks pretty dam good compared to the alternatives of just carrying on being miserable or living a life of deceit in an extra marital affair. 

I don't think I could have reached this place without the input from some of you people. Many thanks.

Future is scary, but now I have hope in my heart One way or another the future is going to be better.


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## COguy

Awesome decision! Sounds like you got your balls back. I wouldn't be surprised if your new determination didn't light the fire in your wife's panties.


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## SimplyAmorous

COguy said:


> What I found in my marriage is that by holding in my emotions I was actually driving away my wife. She wanted nothing more than for me to share what I was feeling. Now that I am more vocal about my needs and desires, we are much closer. It's a healthier relationship too. You can't beemotionally attached to someone who doesn't share there feelings and that's very important to women for sexual desire. That means making yourself vulnerable to rejection, which is another topic SimplyAmorous can tell you about.


Here is my thread on Vulnerability since COguy mentioned this topic... if you have 20 minutes, take the time to click on the video link in the 1st line... I give an outline in my post about what was spoken ...about connection...it is really what we ALL live for- what YOU wanted in that other women even Introubledeep.... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html

So Yes... sounds you are setting yourself on the right path here... being the honorable man you want to be ... Let's hope your wife can meet you half way, care about your needs as a man, as a husband. Give her a chance.... bust this open... do not fear *conflict *or *vulnerabilty*.... these are truly your helpers in honest heartfelt communication. 

Here is a excellent article on communication , Conflict is Paragragh #5


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## Introubledeep

Is this normal? I have every emotion known to mankind raging through my heart at this time ...hurt...anger...pain...shame...guilt...dissapointment. It is like a an emotional hurricane has been unleashed. Where the hell did this come from?!

All sorts of painful memories flooding back to me that I had buried and tried to move on from. 

I vividly remember very early in our marriage when i was desperately trying to find a job and not having much luck (I had a very menial job, not well paid), and I felt very weak and inadequate. I started to discuss this with my wife and I told her how bad I felt. In previous relationships I usually recevied some sympathy and support when I expressed my vulnerability. Well, it was as if this was the opportunity she had been waiting for and she went on the attack and savaged me and compared me to a very dishonest person we know. She drove a knife into my heart when I reached out to her for support. I learned that when I get angry or upset or make myself vulnerable she goes on the attack, she has done this a number of times. I never experienced this in my family or my previous relationships, it is very hard to deal with. 

Other memories including several times when I have become completely enraged at trivial things, completely unreasonably so...one time I threw a dinner plate onto the floor and smashed it, I totally lost it. The trigger was an argument because the house looked like a nuke zone (I am not talking about a few dirty dishes, I mean A NUKE ZONE complete with rotting food lying around the place, even on the floor!). My reaction was completely unreasonable and over the top and I really scared her. I know this hurt my wife and dissappointed her so much. I am so ashamed.

Another time I became so frustrated by the constant clutter of things being left all over the place, to the point that I could not find a place to sit down. I threw some things out, mostly trivial unimportant things, but things that were hers, things that I had no right to throw out. I hurt her and I am ashamed of this.

Another time when my wife was almost due to give birth to our first and only child, we had an argument about something relatively minor by telephone. She became very angry and stated to me that she would kill our pet guinea pig. When I came home, our pet guinea pig was dead. Its cause of death was not apparent but of course I thought that she had done this. I was shocked and hurt. I confronted her about it, and she vehemently denied that she had harmed the guinea pig, and we had another blazing row. A couple of hours later she went into labour and our child was born. She has brought this up several times and accused me of causing her to go into labour early and that it is my fault for falsely accusing her of such a terrible thing. (the labour was not early, just a couple of days earlier than the doctors told us the expected date was).

Another incident she has accused me of is starving her of food during her pregnancy...she says I ate everything and it was my fault. I know this is not true, I was at work all day everyday, there was food in the fridge, I always made sure she had enough money to buy our essentials. She says of this "I was stupid enough to love you so much that I put you first, so I let you have all the food and I didn't get what I needed". This accusation cuts me to the core, especially when she recently told this story to my daughter while we were all together.

When my daughter was 1 year old my wife told me to get out and not to come back. She meant it. It was totally cold, cold and hard as steel. It was cold, ruthless, lifeless, and hard...anyone else ever seen this...if you do you know it is for real, there is no posturing or idle threats. It is almost as cold as a reptile. I refused to leave. I think this was really the beginning of the end. We remained together physically living together, but I think this was the most identifiable point that we separated emotionally. My daughter was a baby, I could not leave her, my wife had no way of providing for my daughter,she has never had a job since we got married. I retreated from the relationship at this point not wanting to precipitate a divorce. In hindsite I say stupid me.

Please don't get the idea she has been the bad one and I am the good one, I have contributed plenty to the breakdown of our relationship, but these are some of the most painful memories for me and they have erupted into my heart and unleashed an emotional storm I am having trouble dealing with. I know I have been passive-aggressive in dealing with our conflicts, a very dangerous and destructive traight. As I say I have contributed heaps to our problems, I am acutely aware that I am not the good guy here.

Can this pandoras box ever be closed? Can these wounds be healed? Can we ever find a constructive way to talk about these things and heal the damage? Am I kidding myself?

I think I need to create a crises to bring this to a head, and not accept anything less than a frank honest and open discussion about all of these things, and the many hurtful things that I have undoubtedly done to her. If she won't come to the table and try to find a path forward, I think I need to call it "the end". I don't want it to be an ultimatum, but I can't go on any more the way things are. 

So hurt, so lonely, so lost, but I feel like I have some direction now. Am I on the right track, or have I lost the plot?

Hurting so bad. Any thoughts?

Those of you with a faith, please pray for me.


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## Hope1964

I wonder if you are feeling all these negative feelings right now because you are missing the OW. Maybe you were actually having an exit affair because you really don't want to be married to this woman.

Try the counseling and see if anything comes of it.



Introubledeep said:


> Will I confess to my wife? Good question...very very good question. And confess to what exactly, just the text relationship? The pornography as well? The pain I feel? The emptiness inside of me? The desire to be close to my wife?
> 
> Will it help heal our emotional distance? Will it make her more willing to talk things through (probably not I am guessing, but who knows?). Perhaps I need to drop the whole story on her to be her wake up call that things are not all OK. Any thoughts?


You should read the book Not Just Friends It talks about windows and doors in relationships. You had a window open with the OW, which you have now replaced with a door (good for you BTW!). Now you need to open a window with your wife. Maybe that will mean the end of the relationship. Maybe it will be the wake up call you both need.


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## Introubledeep

Excuse my ignorance, but what is an "Exit affair"?


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## Hope1964

It's an affair that someone has when they want an excuse to get out of the marriage, hoping their spouse will find out and end things.


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## Introubledeep

Now I know what an exit affair is...sort of...the thought of this never even occurred to me. Do people really do this?:scratchhead: It sounds about as sensible as a carpenter deliberately hitting himself with a hammer to injure himself because he doesn't feel like working today. Are you for real?

The issue is that I can not live with myself if I take the dark path of having an affair. It totally violates my sense of honesty and integrity. This is not a case of wanting to be caught cheating, it is a case of I can't live with myself if I do, and I am ashamed that I have come even to this point (...lunch together once in a sandwich shop, probably 50 text messages sent over 6 weeks, about a week of my emotions spiralling out of control.)

This close call with the OW was not a well thought out plan, it was a case of suddenly finding myself caught in a trap by surprise, and I want to get out. It awakened me to the realisation that something is seriously wrong in my marriage and I need to sort things out...one way or another. It allowed me to see how seriously messed up my marriage is. It made me decide that I can not go on this way. Going forward, I either fix this marriage or end it. However,it has sparked some serious soul searching on my part, and I am not liking what I am finding. I guess (???) this is normal:scratchhead:? Am I weird?


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## EleGirl

Introubledeep said:


> To any ladies reading this, please don't judge me as some weirdo pervert. Men really truelly do need a healthy sexual relationship, and it is very very destructive and hurtful to deprive your husbands of it. The pain I feel is every bit as real as many women feel when they are emotionally abused by their husbands.


Your wife is abusing you emotionally. Why do you think that only women do this? Some men also deprive their wives of a sexual relationship. There are often women on here who complain of their husbands doing the same thing to them. I’ve been through it as well.

Is your wife a stay at home mom (SAHM)? Just curious.

You have every right to ask for a divorce. IMHO, denying a sexual relationship to one’s spouse is a form of infidelity… it’s being unfaithful to the promises that were made at the time of marriage. 

You wife says that you are not all that important to her. Her relationship with your daughter is unhealthy. You deserve someone who loves you and treats you well. It’s too bad because your daughter also deserves a mother who puts her marriage and her husband first. 

Do the honorable thing and file for divorce. Ask the woman to wait, that you do not want to cheat as you want to be true to your moral beliefs. But that if she will wait you would like to go out with her.


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## EleGirl

Introubledeep said:


> Now I know what an exit affair is...sort of...the thought of this never even occurred to me. Do people really do this?:scratchhead: It sounds about as sensible as a carpenter deliberately hitting himself with a hammer to injure himself because he doesn't feel like working today. Are you for real?
> 
> The issue is that I can not live with myself if I take the dark path of having an affair. It totally violates my sense of honesty and integrity. This is not a case of wanting to be caught cheating, it is a case of I can't live with myself if I do, and I am ashamed that I have come even to this point (...lunch together once in a sandwich shop, probably 50 text messages sent over 6 weeks, about a week of my emotions spiralling out of control.)
> 
> This close call with the OW was not a well thought out plan, it was a case of suddenly finding myself caught in a trap by surprise, and I want to get out. It awakened me to the realisation that something is seriously wrong in my marriage and I need to sort things out...one way or another. It allowed me to see how seriously messed up my marriage is. It made me decide that I can not go on this way. Going forward, I either fix this marriage or end it. However,it has sparked some serious soul searching on my part, and I am not liking what I am finding. I guess (???) this is normal:scratchhead:? Am I weird?


You are normal. You are not weird. The number of times you would like to have sex is also pretty normal. Your wanting a sexual relationship is very normal.... most adults do.


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## arbitrator

EleGirl said:


> Your wife is abusing you emotionally. Why do you think that only women do this? Some men also deprive their wives of a sexual relationship. There are often women on here who complain of their husbands doing the same thing to them. I’ve been through it as well.
> 
> Is your wife a stay at home mom (SAHM)? Just curious.
> 
> You have every right to ask for a divorce. IMHO, denying a sexual relationship to one’s spouse is a form of infidelity… it’s being unfaithful to the promises that were made at the time of marriage.
> 
> You wife says that you are not all that important to her. Her relationship with your daughter is unhealthy. You deserve someone who loves you and treats you well. It’s too bad because your daughter also deserves a mother who puts her marriage and her husband first.
> 
> Do the honorable thing and file for divorce. Ask the woman to wait, that you do not want to cheat as you want to be true to your moral beliefs. But that if she will wait you would like to go out with her.


I couldn't agree more with the advise that EleGirl is giving you. It really makes me wonder if your wife's primary purpose in originally forming the relationship with you was nothing more than having you around to father a child that she so desperately wanted to have for her own edification. And ever since the child arrived, you've been richly relegated to no better than second place, if even that high. And by your description, I cannot help but agree that her relationship with your daughter already is or is going to be a most unhealthy one.
My primary advise would have been to get you and your wife into immediate counseling but I'm taking it that that was not an option for her.

Given that, you're doing the right thing. Get into Christian counseling, immediately put a freeze on the "other" relationship, talk to a trusted member of your church ministerial staff, and by all means, start a dialogue with a reputable family attorney exploring an exit strategy from this unhealthy relationship you're in; and that might also include your filing for custody of your daughter. I feel that by your actions in this marriage, that you are the Christian here and not your wife. I'd feel far better just knowing that your daughter was being raised by a God-fearing Christian Dad, rather than by a clutching, controlling, non-Christian Mom. In effect, she has abandoned you and that is, in and of itself, one of the most justifiable/acceptable scriptural reasons for the initiation for divorce.

Trust me, Brother; the Heavenly Father has far better things planned for your life as well as for the life of your daughter. Seek them, but at the same time, let Him walk beside you! God bless you, my friend. We'll continue to be here for you!


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## Introubledeep

Hi elegirl. Thanks for your responses. Food for thought. 

Yes my wife is a stay at home mum...does that make any difference or have any special significance or shed any light on this, or were you just curious? (I don't mind either way, just seemed a minor thing to be asking about considering what is going on, a bit like being under gun fire and asking are your shoes comfortable ?)

Thanks arbitrator, I find great comfort in your words.


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## arbitrator

Introubledeep said:


> Hi elegirl. Thanks for your responses. Food for thought.
> 
> Yes my wife is a stay at home mum...does that make any difference or have any special significance or shed any light on this, or were you just curious? (I don't mind either way, just seemed a minor thing to be asking about considering what is going on, a bit like being under gun fire and asking are your shoes comfortable ?)
> 
> Thanks arbitrator, I find great comfort in your words.




Absolutely no problem! Just continue to keep us timely posted!


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## Introubledeep

I spoke with the pastor of my church today and told him of my desolate wilderness married life and my sadness and lonliness and my failings. I told him exactly the truth. This is a very strange thing for me to do, never done it before.

I was expecting to be told it is wrong to divorce and that I was scripturally obligated to carry on at any cost etc etc. 

He calmly looked at me and said, I like to think that I have at least some ability to perceive people's hearts and where they are at, and I am not surprised. Now you have to decide what you really want to do. There is no point in trying to fix this relationship up if you are not 100% wanting to do it, and there is absolutely no guarantee that it could be fixed up even if you commit to it 100%. It is going to require enormous amounts of forgiveness from you, and it is only going to work if your wife is also 100% committed to fixing it and making big changes. If you don't want to go through with trying to fix this relationship, you need to be honest. If it can't be fixed, there is life after divorce ( I think I have paraphrased quite accurately what he said).

You could have knocked me over with a feather, it sure wasn't what I expected to hear.

I went for a walk tonight and I looked up at the stars. The beauty of the stars was almost overpowering, almost like seeing them for the first time. I felt slightly meloncholy, a bit like the feeling I have when I remember my precious grandma who passed away 12 years ago, a distant pang of pain but a deep calm pain tempered by time and counter balanced by the warmth of the memories of the love she gave to me as a child; 

*but I also I felt alive, I felt hope*, a very unfamiliar feeling.

For the first time I asked myself, "What do I really want in my heart of hearts"? I mean really want to do paying absolutely no regard to what anybody else would want or expect of me. No regard for what I should do, should want to do, what I am obligated to do, should be prepared to do...just plain simple...what do I want to do?

I think I know the answer. I feel strangely peaceful and calm. Could it really be that simple? This goes against the grain of so much I beleive to be right...a man has duties and obligations and responsibilities, it just can't be as simple as "What do I want to do?" How can I be off the hook that simple? and yet I feel more peace than I have felt for a long time.

I began to realise that if I do end this, I am not ending it at all, it ended 8 years ago, and it wasn't me who made that decision. If I end it now, I am actually just acknowledging what has already happened emotionally and spiritually all those years ago.

I am not going to make any rash or sudden decisions, and certainly not before talking it through with a marriage Counsellor, but it is becoming clearer in my head and my heart where I am really at.

This has all happened real fast, like a light turning on in my heart and entering into dark and empty spaces. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. 

Still don't know where this is all going, but at least I am seeing things with some hope for a better future.


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## EleGirl

Introubledeep said:


> Hi elegirl. Thanks for your responses. Food for thought.
> 
> Yes my wife is a stay at home mum...does that make any difference or have any special significance or shed any light on this, or were you just curious? (I don't mind either way, just seemed a minor thing to be asking about considering what is going on, a bit like being under gun fire and asking are your shoes comfortable ?)


Well, when under gun fire, comfortable shoes could be very important… you might need to run far for your life. 

I asked for several reasons. I wanted a better overall picture of what is going on and your path forward. 

It is horribly disrespectful for your wife to being living off you financially and then to refuse to have any kind of real relationship with you. One of your posts above talks about how she attacks you verbally and emotionally when you have gone to her for emotional support. Her attitude about you supporting is more of showing how self-centered and quit honestly, how selfish she is. In this day and age, you are giving you a great gift by supporting her and letting her be a SAHM. Yet she does not seem to recognize that this is a gift that most women do not get today. She should be cherishing you for what you have done for her and your daughter.. not disrespecting you in the manner she does.

One thing to consider while you are looking into your path forward is that your wife needs to get a job. If you leave her she will need to support herself. She will probably be awarded at least child support if not some spousal support. But she will also need to work to support herself. 

Even if the two of you stay together I believe it would be healthier for all of you if she worked. For one thing she will learn the value of what you have been doing for her. 

As I said earlier, your wife’s relationship with your daughter is not healthy. She should not be sleeping every night with an 8 year old child and completely ignoring her husband. It’s giving your daughter a very bad message about what marriage and family should be. By working, your wife will have to stop a lot of the smothering of your daughter. It will also give you more of a chance to spend quality time with your daughter.

Also if you and your wife divorce, you can push for at least 50% custody. This means that at least 50% of the time your daughter will be away from her mother and the smothering that is going on. Your wife’s attitude towards you is most likely negatively affecting your daughter’s attitude towards you. By have your daughter 50% of the time, you will be able to build your own relationship with our daughter.


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## allisterfiend

If you love your wife, then dont start a relationship with another woman.
If you need sex and someone to talk to that will listen and make you feel like a million bucks, call an escort!!!!
It may be a temporary fix but my oh my....its well worth every penny!!
Its cheaper than ANY counseling and you ALWAYS leave satisfied!!
Its helped my marriage of over 25 years even when I got caught. My wife tends to "throw down" even more and with more "gusto".
Thank god for the service industry!! (thats coming from a she-ite atheist)


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## arbitrator

allisterfiend said:


> If you love your wife, then dont start a relationship with another woman.
> If you need sex and someone to talk to that will listen and make you feel like a million bucks, call an escort!!!!
> It may be a temporary fix but my oh my....its well worth every penny!!
> Its cheaper than ANY counseling and you ALWAYS leave satisfied!!
> Its helped my marriage of over 25 years even when I got caught. My wife tends to "throw down" even more and with more "gusto".
> Thank god for the service industry!! (thats coming from a she-ite atheist)


Just make good and sure that your health insurance is paid up in case you should encounter any strange associated STD's!


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## Introubledeep

allisterfiend said:


> If you love your wife, then dont start a relationship with another woman.
> If you need sex and someone to talk to that will listen and make you feel like a million bucks, call an escort!!!!
> It may be a temporary fix but my oh my....its well worth every penny!!
> Its cheaper than ANY counseling and you ALWAYS leave satisfied!!
> Its helped my marriage of over 25 years even when I got caught. My wife tends to "throw down" even more and with more "gusto".
> Thank god for the service industry!! (thats coming from a she-ite atheist)


Hi, thanks for your contribution. Well at least you found an answer that worked for you. No disrespect intended, but this isn't quite my style. Perhaps I am a b it feminine in my approach to this whole marriage thing.


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## Introubledeep

I went to see a marriage Counsellor today. Just me this time. It was very worthwhile. I got a lot out of it. I realise that I am in a co-dependant relationship (der...pretty obvious I guess...if I was prepared to look...I am now).

I didn't tell wife where I was going. When I got back she asked me where did you go? The conversation went

Me) "I went to see a marriage Counsellor".

Wife) Why?

Me) "Ï've got problems, our marriage isn't working for me and I need some help".

Wife) "Do you want to get a divorce?"

Me) "That isn't what I said. I am going to see the marriage Counsellor again next week. I want to invite you to come with me and we can talk about things. Will you come with me?"

Wife) But Why?

Me) "Because our marriage isn't working for me. I've got problems. I'm going again next week on Wednesday, will you come with me?"

Wife) "How long have you felt like this?"

Me) A looong time.

Silence, total silence after that. Strangest response:scratchhead:

Could it be over that easy? Being 100% honest, a big part of me hopes so, it would be a HUGE relief. It would be so much easier than what I will have to endure if we do try to sort things out...more emotional abuse for me...for god knows how long...with no certaintly that things will get better. Perhaps this sounds selfish, but walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me. Anyway, to a large extent the ball is in her court now, it takes two to tango. If she says NO, it is over and that is the end of that.

I can't believe it, it seems that she honestly HAD NO IDEA! I guess for her there isn't a problem, she has had me firmly under her control where she wanted me, and for as long as I was willing to sacrifice my needs and wants to enable her to have the life that she was content with, and I was low maintenance, from her perspective there was no problem. I really have been just a sperm donor and provider of finance 

My next move is to move out, at least temporarily. Time to prove to her that she is going to lose me 100% if she does not take strong and determined action to heal our broken marriage. This is no idle threat, I mean it! I'm all good with that, no fear in my heart, well actually there is, my fear is that she will step up to the plate and make a 100% commitment to try and sort things out...I don't believe that she has the capacity to make the changes required to start healing our marriage, and if she starts and then falters it is only going to put me through months of pain and abuse all to end anyway. I know, I know, it isn't fair to pre-empt what might happen

My thoughts are that if anything is to survive, a whole new set of rules must be established before I move back, and I need to remove myself from the abusive situation to protect myself. The exact advice I would give to a victim of DV...move out and don't go back until new rules are firmly established and the professional help that is required is in place. IF I move out and if things don't get sorted out, at least I have begun the technical process of a separation, and a divorce can happen sooner. 

My goal is fix it or end it, and moving out will set me on the path to one of these outcomes...albeit I don't know which one.

What do others think? Would anyone suggest a different/better course of action?


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## PTCrusier

I hope you understand that my desire here is to see a marriage saved.

As I have read I do believe you have done some things well, but I also think you are in danger of doing some things that may inadvertently trigger the end of your marriage.

I have dealt with many couples having marriage issues and there is one very real danger. Trying to fight selfishness with selfishness. 

As you explained your wife has been very selfish in her actions and attitudes toward you these last few years. Coming from a Biblical perspective I would call what your wife is doing sinful. Selfishness is sinful. You have been selfish in your viewing of porn and your flirtation with another woman. I would call what you did sinful. Neither of you were/are living out the Christ you claim. There is a cycle here that can only be broken by someone in the relationship saying, I will stop being selfish and I will be like Christ. This decision though can not be based on a desired result (I won't be selfish so that she wont be selfish so that I can get what I want. That is still selfishness). It also can not be based on how you feel about her (Today I will not be selfish because I love her hair. Today I will be selfish because she threw out my favorite movie) 

Moving out or the threat to move out if things don't change to cause change is inherently a selfish action. 

Yes I agree, there is life after divorce, but you will not be the same person. You can heal and pain can subside, but your inner person will forever be altered. God never intended for divorce to happen. He neither approves it or guides people to do it. You may find happiness after divorce, but people who find joy are few and far between. 

Yes she has Biblical responsibilities in the physical, emotional, and spiritual realms that she is failing to meet. God never gave you permission to use that as an excuse to not meet yours. 

PT


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## Introubledeep

Thanks PT Cruiser, you are talking good sense, I hear what you are saying. I guess it is much easier to be wise when it isn't you being bruised, hence my decision to put my ideas out there for others to comment on and reflect back. It helps me to get a bit more balanced view. For me, part of the healing has been for me to have a place to simply say what is really in my heart and what I feel, with no "ifs", no "buts", no "should do", no judgements. Once it is clear in my own head what is honestly in my heart, I can compare that to gods design and model, and start to figure out how and why my heart is so far from that model. The result has been that I have started to see huge areas in my life where my world view is damaged, distorted, or simply wrong, and how this has coloured my understanding of life, relationships, and my place in this world. Much of this was previously below my conscious level, and I now see largely shaped by my upbringing and life experiences. It is very challenging. 

I started out with a moral struggle against the temptation to go into an extra-marital affair and the struggle of trying to live in a sad marriage, and it has turned into a major re-think of my whole life. Quite an adventure! Definately still a work in progress. Still gots lots of stuff to sort through, and for once in my life I am not disturbed about that.

I decided to postpone moving out until we go to Counselling and give it a real try at resolving our issues. Now I am very glad that I did. We went to Marriage Counselling yesterday together for the first time, and it was very constructive and helpful and healing. I see some very real hope of my wife and I sorting things out and making a future together that is very different to the past. I now expect that we will have a relationship that is much more fulfilling and happy in the future. It is already beginning to happen. Actually, I can't believe the changes that have happened already between my wife and I. Our love life has suddenly exploded back into life, initiated by my wife, sweet, passionate, intimate, honest, sharing, caring, exciting ...never did I imagine this could happen so dramatically. We have cleared some big emotional stumbling blocks and misunderstandings between us, and the passion has ignited. I know we still have a long way to go, but at least we are on the right track, and most importantly on the same track walking together and talking honestly and openly.

I am now on a better path. I have decided that I will do whatever I can to save our marriage, and I can see that my wife is approaching this in exactly the same way - it helps immensely to know that she is willing to do what it takes too. I now believe that it will not be just "saving" a sad marriage, it will be creating the marriage that we dreamed and hoped of all those years ago when we first got married, albeit with more realistic expectations. I don't think that I am deluded, I know it is going to be hard, but it is worth it. I think I am in a good place now. I honestly think that god has intervened, I can't explain it any other way, the changes that have occurred already have been nothing short of dramatic.


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## Mrlonelyhearts

Hi, I just caught the thread and read some of it. I do have some comments. I am not sure if someone else made these points, so I apologize if I am repeating what someone else said.

I went through exactly the same thing you are going through now. I think it was 2004 or 2005 when things started to change for us. I tried to "fix it" by being more attentive, helping more around the house, asking her why she quit having sex, etc. When that did not work, I withdrew not knowing what else to do. I got angry and turned to porn and mb to cope with my feelings. (That was a really bad decision by the way). I even hinted with other ladies about having an affair, but never could go through with it.

In counseling, I heard this over and over again. YOU CAN ONLY DO YOUR PART! My therapist finally yelled that to me one session cause I wasn't accepting of the situation. She gave up. I later read an article that was helpful; Divorce Busting® - Walk-Away Wife Syndrome - Wife Ending Marriage

Do what you can to "fix it" but if she continues to resist, be ready to walk away yourself, in my opinion. Good luck!!!

MrLH


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## anonim

ITD, You handled this as well as a man could have and as a man I am proud for you .






Introubledeep said:


> Thanks PT Cruiser, you are talking good sense, I hear what you are saying. I guess it is much easier to be wise when it isn't you being bruised, hence my decision to put my ideas out there for others to comment on and reflect back. It helps me to get a bit more balanced view. For me, part of the healing has been for me to have a place to simply say what is really in my heart and what I feel, with no "ifs", no "buts", no "should do", no judgements. Once it is clear in my own head what is honestly in my heart, I can compare that to gods design and model, and start to figure out how and why my heart is so far from that model. The result has been that I have started to see huge areas in my life where my world view is damaged, distorted, or simply wrong, and how this has coloured my understanding of life, relationships, and my place in this world. Much of this was previously below my conscious level, and I now see largely shaped by my upbringing and life experiences. It is very challenging.
> 
> I started out with a moral struggle against the temptation to go into an extra-marital affair and the struggle of trying to live in a sad marriage, and it has turned into a major re-think of my whole life. Quite an adventure! Definately still a work in progress. Still gots lots of stuff to sort through, and for once in my life I am not disturbed about that.
> 
> I decided to postpone moving out until we go to Counselling and give it a real try at resolving our issues. Now I am very glad that I did. We went to Marriage Counselling yesterday together for the first time, and it was very constructive and helpful and healing. I see some very real hope of my wife and I sorting things out and making a future together that is very different to the past. I now expect that we will have a relationship that is much more fulfilling and happy in the future. It is already beginning to happen. Actually, I can't believe the changes that have happened already between my wife and I. Our love life has suddenly exploded back into life, initiated by my wife, sweet, passionate, intimate, honest, sharing, caring, exciting ...never did I imagine this could happen so dramatically. We have cleared some big emotional stumbling blocks and misunderstandings between us, and the passion has ignited. I know we still have a long way to go, but at least we are on the right track, and most importantly on the same track walking together and talking honestly and openly.
> 
> I am now on a better path. I have decided that I will do whatever I can to save our marriage, and I can see that my wife is approaching this in exactly the same way - it helps immensely to know that she is willing to do what it takes too. I now believe that it will not be just "saving" a sad marriage, it will be creating the marriage that we dreamed and hoped of all those years ago when we first got married, albeit with more realistic expectations. I don't think that I am deluded, I know it is going to be hard, but it is worth it. I think I am in a good place now. I honestly think that god has intervened, I can't explain it any other way, the changes that have occurred already have been nothing short of dramatic.


in *red*, might be hysterical bonding, a subconscious behavior usually enacted when a partner perceives the imminent, permanent loss of their spouse and does everything in their power to make their spouse feel close to them, including emotional closeness, sex, and time allocation.

If her change is the real thing great. Just be prepared to stand your ground if she slides back once things 'normalize.'


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## anonim

allisterfiend said:


> If you love your wife, then dont start a relationship with another woman.
> If you need sex and someone to talk to that will listen and make you feel like a million bucks, call an escort!!!!
> It may be a temporary fix but my oh my....its well worth every penny!!
> Its cheaper than ANY counseling and you ALWAYS leave satisfied!!
> Its helped my marriage of over 25 years even when I got caught. My wife tends to "throw down" even more and with more "gusto".
> Thank god for the service industry!! (thats coming from a she-ite atheist)


...and dont listen to stuff like this... :lol: ...its just not you.


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## Introubledeep

Hi Anonim, quoting your post above;

"in red, might be hysterical bonding, a subconscious behavior usually enacted when a partner perceives the imminent, permanent loss of their spouse and does everything in their power to make their spouse feel close to them, including emotional closeness, sex, and time allocation.

If her change is the real thing great. Just be prepared to stand your ground if she slides back once things 'normalize.'"



Sadly, I now think this is exactly what it was. 

Call it a cruel experiment if you like, but I had to get to the truth. We went 3 weeks without her once initiating, or suggesting, or responding to my very subtle advances. We then had sex, but I didn't feel that her heart or mind was into it at all, I felt "dirty" afterwards.

Then I decided to make no sexual advances towards my wife at all and see what would happen. The answer is simple, absolutely nothing has happened now for 5 weeks. So, sex has happend once in the last 2 months...I think it is fair to say we are right back to where we started, albeit her disrespect towards me is not as evident. I do not beleive that her change was much more than a desperate atttempt to hold me here so that she could maintain her lifestyle. 

I feel violated now, and used. I think that if she felt any genuine emotional connection towards me, she would probably wish to have sexual relations with me at least sometimes...I now know that she doesn't. There are virtually no other signs of physical affection either.

And it isn't just the sex. She has shown no interest in knowing or even asking about what I really think and feel about anything.

I am pretty sure that this is over now, and I am making plans to separate and then get a property settlement and divorce.

Perhaps strangely, I don't feel much anger or even sadness, just dissappointment in myself that my marriage has failed, and great concern about the welfare of my child. 

More than anything else I feel a sense of releif and like a huge emotional load has been lifted off me, despite the fact that I know there is a hard road ahead to sort out a new life.


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## Tasorundo

ITD, I don't think your expirement was fair to your wife. You are right back to where you started, because of your expirement. You put all your eggs into that basket, then when she failed a test she did no know about, you made conclusions based upon your observations.

Have you talked with her about your 'experiment'? Don't you think that would be a fair thing to do? Rather then just pout that she did not pick up on your subtle hints, perhaps you could talk with her about it.

I say all of this as a 17 year married man, who has had about 17 years of sexual frustration in my marriage. I did retreat to pornography and eventually I had a ONS while on a business trip.

Now that my wife and I actually talk, openly and honestly, I can see how all of my similar experiments were setups for failure. They always left me feeling unattractive and unloved. The problem is that my wife's mind is much different than mine and what was obvious to me was not to her.

You set her up in a test where she was bound to fail. Then are depressed because she failed. There was never a chance she would pass.


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## christeeanna

Here is one question I would ask myself if I were you. If you were to die tomorrow, would you have wanted to have passed up this other woman. Yes you can go on living a miserable existence with your wife but what if ?


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## DDC

christeeanna said:


> Here is one question I would ask myself if I were you. If you were to die tomorrow, would you have wanted to have passed up this other woman. Yes you can go on living a miserable existence with your wife but what if ?


That is the last question I would be asking.


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## EleGirl

I wonder how Introubledeep is doing...


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## Introubledeep

Reading others comments, at least one person thinks that what I did in my "cruel experiment" was unfair and unreasonable...probably at some level it was, but on the other hand, I genuinely needed to know if my wife was "putting out" (I hate this crass term) to protect her lifestyle, or if she had found some tenderness in her heart towards me and wanted to build a connection emotionally and sexually with me (as it should be in a marriage!). I am confident that I know the answer to this now, sadly it is not the answer I hoped for.

Before being too harsh on me, consider that I was the subject of a cruel experiment that lasted for 10 years, namely, How long can this guy go on providing financially, being despised, and living without love and affection and virtually no sexual relationship and with no hope of things ever changing. (I wasn't even allowed to sleep in the same bed as my wife for most of this time). I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but surely these are at least mitigating circumstances. Also my intention was not to be cruel, but to get to the truth of the matter.

I am not trying to be right, I feel a heavy burden that I am in the wrong - I want to end my marriage, and I find that idea very hard to come to terms with, I never thought that I would be here. However, I simply can't do this anymore, it is destroying me. 

Counselling brought a whole lot of new understanding for me. I now know that healing our relationship now depends heavily on my wife seeking help to overcome her psychological issues so that she can learn to function emotionally and connect with me...she is not remotely interested in making these changes. I could live with a sub-standard relationship if I knew she was really trying and that she wanted to connect with me...I am not expecting perfection...but I need a solid undertaking on her part to learn how to love and show affection towards me. She refuses to do so. She seems to have no desire to even try to connect with me. I can't change her, only she can do that.

I consider some of the marriage vows, "to have and to hold to love and to cherish"...I have not been on the receiving end of this deal for a long time. Also, "to forsake all others" surely implies that there will be a sexual relationship too...that has been virtually non-existent for 10 years now (and there is no medical or physical reason here, she simply doesn't want to have a sexual relationship with me). And it seems that there is no chance of change...at what point is the deal over if one party refuses to participate? I have failed in my marriage, I have failed to endure to the end of my life, judge me if you wish. For me, the deal is over now, be it right or wrong, good or bad, selfish or not, it is now a matter of self preservation.

As for the other woman, as somebody asked about, this issue certainly brought me to the place of awakening and realising just how sad and lonely I was. However, she is in a relationship with a defacto partner, and has a young child. She has been subjected to abuse and domestic violence and this relationship is quite dysfunctional. She is quite a classy and smart girl, well educated, she knows this relationship is wrong, so she may well leave this relationship soon, but there is no way I can count on that or predict what she will do in the future. I can have some small hope in my heart perhaps that one day I could pursue a relationship with her, but there is no certain future with her, god only knows what she will do...leave her defacto, stay with her defacto, decide to live alone with her child....all unknown. Leaving my wife specifically to be with this woman would be bordering on insanity, it would be like making a life plan based on winning the lottery.

However, she showed me that I am acceptable, loveable, desirable...it is possible for me to find love, and maybe one day I will, but sadly it isn't going to happen by me staying where I am now.

As for me, How am I doing? I am wanting to just get on with the separation, property settlement and divorce and get it over with as soon as possible. I am deeply concerned and sad when I think about the impacts this will have on my daughter. I am concerned about the financial implications too...where and how are we going to live. I certainly don't want to leave my wife homeless, but the truth is that if she plays the property settlement game "the hard way" there may not be much left...the implicatons scare me...but ultimately I have no control over this.

In the immediate future, I need to find a place to stay at minimal cost, I need to try to keep the financial status quo until property settlement time...I guess this could easily be 1-2 years...this is a long time to live in limbo.

I guess I am going through all the normal stuff that one does when in this situation.

Emotionally, the main feeling I have is RELIEF, UNBELEIVABLE RELIEF that my time of living in an emotional cage is going to be over soon. I just want to get on with it, but I just gotta lay some groundwork before I jump out into the unknown.


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## SimplyAmorous

I feel you have went above & beyond to salvage, despite how you fell , I understand it completely and in it's way, it helped you realize what you wrote here -


> she showed me that I am acceptable, loveable, desirable...it is possible for me to find love, and maybe one day I will, but sadly it isn't going to happen by me staying where I am now


 ....*this was a Blessing !*

You are a good man, I hope you find a good woman to share your life with oneday... just continue to BE THERE for your daughter, she will need you. THis is simply the best you can do, what is best for everyone...under these circumstances. My parents divorced, it doesn't destroy the children - my Dad found the love of his life after divorcing my Mom- still going strong & very much in love for 35 yrs now... it was the best for all.


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## ferndog

Honesty, yes honesty is what some require at moments like this and I would like to extend my hand of friendship and give you my view on marriage, love , and your situation

A happy working relationship should consists of these factors (my opinion) love, honesty, loyalty, intimacy, dependability, friendship, patience, and what I believe one of the most important factors is communication.

I also believe a person should aspire to be the best they can to offer their partner the best them possible. In these areas motivation, physical (health wise), financially, partnership (meaning help around the house 50/50). If children are involved , both should try to be good parents/ role models.

You should love yourself, before you can love another. Or else you will depend on others to guide your self worth

Your relationship. Before I give my opinion please keep in mind that my opinions are just that. Opinions. It would be to your benefit to examine my advice an relate it to your feelings/ situation. Keep in mind that your decisions will affect your life so do as you wish with all opinions and advice.

I believe that you are a good man, a man that fears GOD. You fear your punishment if you were to cheat. You desire sex. Yes and that's normal. I'm not sure if you fear GOD more than you love your wife. Only you know that an you cannot fool yourself.

You've put up with a lot sir. You are bring abused and you rather hope for an easy escape than to work on your marriage, I believe this to be a cowardly way of dealing with things. You are a father, and husband and you should refrain from any affairs because it will not only damage your family, it will damage your conscious . Respect yourself sir and don't use any excuse to justify this behavior.

Your wife has abandoned you. She forgot that not only is she a mother, but she is a wife. She is currently your room mate. The child should not sleep in your bed. Further more there should not be a tv in your bedroom . 

Do you love your wife?
Do you feel unhappy?
This is not what you pictured when you married her.
Stop bs ing yourself and her.
Tell her why your unhappy. If you love her by all means try to work it out. If she needs help to get to that place of happiness again by all means do it
But if you or her cannot get there anymore then what are you both doing?
This isn't a productive marriage, this is a sad attempt to stay together to not dissapoint GOD.

You both deserve better . I honestly think you both can be happy together but it will take work and time. It will also take you to grow up and face the truth. She might not change there is a good chance she will not give you what you need as a husband. But then you can at least look in the mirror and say " I tried, I did all I could"

You should respect your marriage but always remember if she isn't respecting you as a husband then your not in a marriage.

Respect yourself and don't cheat. Talk to your wife. Tell her why you love her, why you fell in love with her. Why did your Heart say "yes, you, you beautiful, you are my life partner"
Why? Then tell her why she has changed tell her your fears, you hopes, your desires your plans with her
What she needs to change . What your willing to do to help her. Ask her her fears hopes etc. this is called communication and this is the foundation of any relationship. Without it you are just going through the motions.

This is my opinions
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Introubledeep

I have turned this into a running dialogue with ferndog, sorry about the length of the post. My responses are in red.

Honesty, yes honesty is what some require at moments like this and I would like to extend my hand of friendship and give you my view on marriage, love , and your situation

A happy working relationship should consists of these factors (my opinion) love, honesty, loyalty, intimacy, dependability, friendship, patience, and what I believe one of the most important factors is communication.

Yes…the problem of communication, this is the heart of the break down of my marriage. I was the dependant one in this relationship, and I had a great fear of confrontation and conflict…very much the person described in the book “No more mr niceguy”. I believed that maintaining the status quo and avoiding conflict was the key to a harmonious relationship. I thought the way to handle conflict was to avoid conflict and swallow my pain and put up with it …stupid, but I did not know any better at that time. 
My wife had a very hard childhood and her parents were very neglectful. Her father was very angry and aggressive to his family. My wife developed a defence mechanism wherein she decided to ignore and cut off all negative emotions and negative things, and she vowed only to allow happy and good things to be in her life. If it was not good or happy, she simply cut it off, fled from it, or denied it.
When we had conflict or I expressed ANYTHING negative, sad, frustrating, angry, scared…this would activate her defence mechanism, and I would be met with a powerful and vicious emotional attack. These emotions of mine were not tolerable to her in any way shape or form.
I became totally unable to express my feelings, engage in any constructive conflict, share my heart, or say anything negative without facing a vicious emotional reprisal. She saw these things as an assault on her person, a violation of her attempt to create a happy and positive world.
I became extremely frustrated, sad, angry, hurt, and all I could do was repress all of these emotions. The few times I did try to confront her, she would go WAY over the top, threatened to kill my puppy once, threatened to kill our pet guinea pig once after an argument over the telephone (I found it dead when I got home, I think she actually did kill it), accused me of starving her, accused me of causing her to go into labour early when our child was born (baby was born 2 days earlier than predicted…not premature), then told me she wanted a divorce and she wanted me to leave and never come back when my baby girl was 1 year old. 
I then became more and more moody and angry because of my repressed emotions. My wife sensed my anger and frustrations, and then emotionally cut me off, despised me, disrespected me, hated me I believe, because I was angry and this reminded her of her father whom she hated so much.
Any attempt at honest communication immediately provoked a hard and cruel response, usually ending in her threatening me with divorce. I would kow tow to her at that point, to me divorce was completely out of the question, unacceptable, immoral, wrong, weak, ungodly, unforgiveable. I stayed and endured because my daughter needed me.
I was forced to sleep in a single bed on my own most nights, my wife slept with my daughter in my bed. My wife virtually refused to have a sexual relationship with me, we probably had sexual intercourse 12 times over 10 years, sometimes going up to 2 years with no sex. I resorted to viewing pornography and masturbating to try to find some sexual relief. I felt dirty and immoral, but desperate and sad and alone. I refused to even entertain the idea of using prostitutes or having an affair…I believed in being faithful to my marriage, to my wife, to god. There was no way I could tell my wife of my needs and my failings without suffering more vicious reprisals because these things were negative.
I remained in this frozen painful state for 10 years. It seemed to me that genuine communication was impossible without resulting in divorce. 
When I met “the other woman” it suddenly blew me apart, forced me to examine all my beliefs, morals, concepts, paradigms, my whole situation. As I questioned and tested all my beliefs, ideas, paradigms, It was like waking up from a terrible nightmare and I suddenly understood why I felt so sad, so lonely, so angry, so unloveable, so unacceptable.
I made the decision, I am either going to fix this marriage, or end it, I will not endure it any more. I confronted my wife and I told her that my marriage had been a living hell for the last 10 years, and that I wanted to leave. She agreed to go to marriage Counselling, and through counselling I got a lot of understanding of the bizaar dynamics that our relationship had operated under (much of it explained above), and interestingly she seemed to understand and agree with much of this. 
I suggested that she should get some individual help to overcome her psychological issues so that she could learn to connect with me emotionally and sexually, and allow me to show her who I really am, and have her accept that I was human and it is OK for me to have faults and failings. She refused to do any individual counselling.
She threw herself into having sex with me for a few weeks…then it stopped. As soon as I stopped trying to initiate and encourage her, all sexual interaction stopped. We have not had sex for 6 weeks now, only had sex once in nearly 3 months. I now see this was just an attempt to hold me here so that she could maintain her lifestyle. There was no commitment or effort to establish genuine emotional or sexual intimacy.I have been through the most incredible emotional upheaval internally for the last few months now, and she seems to not even notice or care. Not once has she asked me about what I am thinking or feeling, frankly I don’t think she cares. As long as I continue to provide and don’t cause too much trouble she is happy to tolerate me being around, and that seems to be the full extent of it.
Now, when I see her all I remember is the years of pain, loneliness, sadness, unfullfilment, and there is a deep well of material that creates resentment in my heart. I keep trying to release my forgiveness to her, I think largely I can forgive her, I don’t really feel angry at her, but I simply can not forget.
Communication was dead a long time ago, and I seem unable to revive it. Genuine heart felt communication is not possible for me when it is met with insults, reprisals, threats, disrespect, and hatred. 


I also believe a person should aspire to be the best they can to offer their partner the best them possible. In these areas motivation, physical (health wise), financially, partnership (meaning help around the house 50/50). If children are involved , both should try to be good parents/ role models.

You should love yourself, before you can love another. Or else you will depend on others to guide your self worth

Yes true. However, subjecting myself to this situation has severely damaged my sense of self worth. My wifes disrespect for me has badly damaged my sense of self worth. Ironically, it is only as I came to understand my self worth, respect myself, respect my needs, that I found the courage and determination to bring this situation to an end and not to fear the outcome, even if it meant a divorce.

Your relationship. Before I give my opinion please keep in mind that my opinions are just that. Opinions. It would be to your benefit to examine my advice an relate it to your feelings/ situation. Keep in mind that your decisions will affect your life so do as you wish with all opinions and advice.

I believe that you are a good man, a man that fears GOD. You fear your punishment if you were to cheat. You desire sex. Yes and that's normal. I'm not sure if you fear GOD more than you love your wife. Only you know that an you cannot fool yourself.

I find this a little ambiguous, but I think you are asking me “are you staying because you love your wife, or are you staying because you fear god?” The answer is very simple, I am staying because I fear god. A small part of me still loves my wife in the agape (sacrificial love) sense, I don’t want her to be hurt, but that is the extent of my love for her now. All affection, romance, sexual desire is gone.

You've put up with a lot sir. You are bring abused and you rather hope for an easy escape than to work on your marriage, I believe this to be a cowardly way of dealing with things. You are a father, and husband and you should refrain from any affairs because it will not only damage your family, it will damage your conscious . Respect yourself sir and don't use any excuse to justify this behavior.

After you read my explanations above, do you still think I am simply trying to find an easy escape? (I don’t really know for sure, perhaps I am?) I found it extremely hard to come to the place of accepting that it was time for me to look after myself even if it means destroying my marriage, my family, my financial wealth. I don’t see this as an easy escape, I am going to pay a terrible price to escape from this abusive situation, but for my own survival I think I must do it. I no longer believe it is possible for me to fix things.

Your wife has abandoned you. She forgot that not only is she a mother, but she is a wife. She is currently your room mate. The child should not sleep in your bed. Further more there should not be a tv in your bedroom . 

Do you love your wife?

I love her in the agape sense, I don’t wish for her to be hurt in any way, but there is no affection, tenderness, romance, or sexual desire for her left at all.

Do you feel unhappy?

Miserably unhappy where I am.

This is not what you pictured when you married her.
Stop bs ing yourself and her.
Tell her why your unhappy. If you love her by all means try to work it out. If she needs help to get to that place of happiness again by all means do it
But if you or her cannot get there anymore then what are you both doing?
This isn't a productive marriage, this is a sad attempt to stay together to not dissapoint GOD.

I think you have hit the nail on the head – communication is not possible without receiving more abuse and reprisals from my wife, and without communication we can not “get to that place of happiness”. This marriage seems to be beyond all repair to me, and I have only stayed because I did not want to “disappoint GOD”, and because I wanted to spare my daughter the pain of her parents getting divorced. I believe to stop BS ing myself and my wife, I need to face this reality and get on with a divorce.

You both deserve better . I honestly think you both can be happy together but it will take work and time. It will also take you to grow up and face the truth. She might not change there is a good chance she will not give you what you need as a husband. But then you can at least look in the mirror and say " I tried, I did all I could"

My tanks are on empty, I have no strength left to try to fix this and no desire to do so anymore, and I am certain that I can never be happy in this marriage. I am certain that she can not meet my needs as her husband. I have tried! All I could do now is make the decision to sacrifice the rest of my life to try to fix this mess, and the reality is that it will almost certainly never improve. I can not force her to change, and I am not prepared to sacrifice the rest of my life to a one sided relationship.

You should respect your marriage but always remember if she isn't respecting you as a husband then your not in a marriage.

She has treated me with disrespect and disdain for the last 10 years, and you are right, I am not in a marriage.

Respect yourself and don't cheat. Talk to your wife. Tell her why you love her, why you fell in love with her. Why did your Heart say "yes, you, you beautiful, you are my life partner"

I made a huge mistake. I fell in love with a hope and a dream, not my wife. We had a brief time together in her country as boyfriend/girlfriend. We then had a long distance relationship for 2 and half years, mostly by letters. She migrated to my country on a prospective spouse visa, and we married 2 weeks later. I married her naievely thinking that a close intimate and loving relationship would bloom and grow. Our relationship was in BIG trouble only 3 months into the marriage, the pattern was set that would characterise the rest of our marriage. We could co-exist as long as I tolerated not being allowed to stand up for myself, I stupidly tried to maintain the status quo and avoided conflict, and she would tolerate me being around as long as I was a responsible provider.

Why? Then tell her why she has changed tell her your fears, you hopes, your desires your plans with her
What she needs to change . What your willing to do to help her. Ask her her fears hopes etc. this is called communication and this is the foundation of any relationship. Without it you are just going through the motions.

As previously explained, communication is dead and can not be revived. Yes, I have just been going through the motions for the last 10 years. I can’t do it anymore.

This is my opinions

Thank you for your opinion, I see it is well considered, wise, balanced, well meaning. I think the thrust of you message is that I should not give up on my marriage no matter what…after you read this response, do you still think that I should persevere? I probably won’t be swayed no matter what you say, but I would like to know what you really think.


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## ferndog

I believe that you have been in a loveless marriage for so long that you don't even know what to do.

Your fear in GOD keeps you in this horrible room mate partnership. GOD is loving and you have done more in ten years than most will do in a lifetime. It's time to let her go. 

Sit her down and explain why you are leaving. You deserve to be loved, to feel desired, you are missing out. Somewhere in this earth there is a woman that will give you love. (no not the one your trying to cheat with, she's married). 

Your body is in that house but your heart is not. You can stay and keep on abusing yourself or you can leave and search for happiness.

You should leave ASAP , your done with this marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SCondeck

Introubledeep,

My friend, you have reached a level of wisdom that surpasses most. First off, don't ever appologize for being redeemed by the grace of Jesus. Next, let's not forget that we are creatures of the flesh, created from the dust of the earth. Since we are of the earth, lusts and desires are in all of us. I know exactly what you're going through as I resorted to pornography as well. Alot. It became a vicious cycle; my wife refused intimacy so I went to porn. She found out about the porn, was disgusted and refused intimacy. Was it wrong of me, a married man, to look at that stuff? Absolutely. Was it wrong of my wife to refuse to be with me? Absolutely. I wish I had some advice on how to make your wife want to be with you but unfortunately I do not. My wife has refused to meet my needs and has walked away. We will be getting a divorce soon. I've tried everything and there's nothing I can do. I hope and pray that you can avoid the same thing. What if you tell her about the porn? What if you admit it to her and tell her how much you hate yourself for it? I don't know for sure but maybe that will make her realize how important she is? I dont know. God be with you my friend and know that you're doing the right thing by stopping contact with that other woman.


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## Bafuna

How are you doing ITD???


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## Mr Blunt

> Quotes by InTroubleDeep
> I think that if she felt any genuine emotional connection towards me, she would probably wish to have sexual relations with me at least sometimes...I now know that she doesn't. There are virtually no other signs of physical affection either.
> 
> And it isn't just the sex. She has shown no interest in knowing or even asking about what I really think and feel about anything.
> 
> My wife virtually refused to have a sexual relationship with me, we probably had sexual intercourse 12 times over 10 years, sometimes going up to 2 years with no sex
> 
> I was the subject of a cruel experiment that lasted for 10 years, namely, How long can this guy go on providing financially, being despised, and living without love and affection and virtually no sexual relationship and with no hope of things ever changing. (I wasn't even allowed to sleep in the same bed as my wife for most of this time).
> 
> Genuine heart felt communication is not possible for me when it is met with insults, reprisals, threats, disrespect, and hatred.
> 
> This marriage seems to be beyond all repair to me, and I have only stayed because I did not want to “disappoint GOD”, and because I wanted to spare my daughter the pain of her parents getting divorced
> 
> there is a deep well of material that creates resentment in my heart.
> 
> I am staying because I fear god.


Reply by BLUNT

This man, InTroubleDeep (ITD), takes his faith very seriously!!

However, I think that his interpretation of God’s position on marriage relationships does not take into consideration some scriptures that show more of God’s instructions for us and his attitude about responsibilities and love.

ITD feels that he should sacrifice his life for a wife that is disobedient to God and failing in her responsibilities in a Christian marriage. If he does not sacrifice himself he feels that he has disappointed God and that can be very devastating to a man of serous faith. *I contend that a few scriptures in the Bible would allow for any person to seperate or divorce any spouse that constantly refuses for years to change to become obedient to God and does not live up to their God given responsibilities.*

The Bible certainly wants a person to be forgiving and refrain from selfish divorce but *does God expect you to sacrifice your life for a spouse that has shown for years that they are not going to change and become obedient to God and fulfill some very important marriage principles?* 

My conclusion based on an overview of God’s word tells me that God is kind and understanding and does not want his people to be deliberately abused by unrepentant people that do not love their spouse and deliberately refuse to embrace God’s requirement for marriage.

I already know that I am going to get challenged by those that believe that adultery is the only way you can divorce. When Jesus talked about this in Matthew he was addressing those that were trying to trap him. They were not really interested in divorce they wanted to trap Jesus. A discussion on this could take up pages and pages. I know about the Matthew scriptures but what about other scriptures?
What about the Old Testament and other New Testament verses?


Exodus 21:7-11 (The Message). 
If he marries another woman, she retains all her full rights to meals, clothing, and *marital relations*. If he won't do any of these three things for her, she goes free, for nothing. 

I bring up this scripture not to discuss polygamy but to point out that a* marriage partner is to provide the full marital rights of the other spouse *(marital relations). If they do not provide for the other spouse the spouse is to go free


*
1 Timothy 5:8 (KJ21) 
8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.*


In first Samuel 25 God killed Nabor because he refused to give food and water to his people and then allowed David to take Nabor’s wife as his own. *Seems like God is serious about people living up to God’s ideas about providing for others and living up to your responsibilities.*

Another thought is the attitude and nature of God. Is it not true that God said *“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and love thy neighbor as thyself?* 
From what ITD wrote about his wife she has violated these commandments for 10 years!

Also, I do not think that God wants ITD to be destroyed by his wife and for ITD to become resentful and defeated.

I know my position is very controversial with many Christians but I have listed the verses that I base my position on. If someone can show me that I am wrong I will accept that. However, at this time *I can not see a God that would expect a man to be ruined, become resentful, and totally defeated because his unrepentant wife will not change for God or her husband.* It just seem that is against God’s nature and his instructions for marriage and being kind to your fellow man.


Finally, I can understand how ITD may think that he is to sacrifice his whole life in misery and defeat because of the great sacrifice that God gave for us but IMO *we are never going to be as strong as God and He does not expect us to!*

OK Christians fire away!




Blunt


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## Bafuna

When Jesus had been fasting for forty days, the devil says to him to turn stones into bread coz he knew He was in a desperate situation where he could have done anything but He says 'Man shall not live ny bread alone.....''

We can never be as strong as Jesus (I know Im not) but arent we supposed to try as much as possible to live like he did, he came in a human body like ours for a reason. 

Sometimes the bible is silent on things and its so diffficult to really know which way to go and I understand what ITD is going through. Sometimes I think we need to wait on the Lord, but Im not the best person to give advice. I was in a similar situation for years, wouldnt divorce my husband for hope he'd change and also because I struggled with this same question on divorce, and guess what when I least expected it HE came home one day and told me he wanted out,for a month or so I was devastated,bu I think God just came through for me, it was exactly what I needed. Of course now its the issue of re-marriage Im struggling to understand, but Im in a good place right now, Thank God.


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## Introubledeep

I have been separated from my wife for just over 12 months now. 

It was a heart wrenching thing to go through, especially with my strong (extreme?)views on living up to my marriage vows, but to stay was going to kill me emotionally and possibly physically because of all the repressed emotions, the pain, the disappointment, the emotional and sexual neglect that I endured for at least 10 years.

Do you think I am being overly dramatic? Consider this; I have had high blood pressure for the last 10 years and doctors have been on the brink of prescribing me high blood pressure medication. However, about 10 days ago my doctor tested my blood pressure, it is lower than it has been in 10 years. Living in my dysfunctional marriage was physically killing me, and now I am out of that cage of torment and frustration and my blood pressure has dropped to normal.

I have a lady friend I am seeing. She is warm, emotionally connected, sexually connected, genuine, kind, caring, and supportive. I know she has my back and I can trust her, she is 100% on my side...even when she is angry at me and when we are having a quarrel. She has enabled me to see life from a whole different perspective. She accepts me exactly for who I am, warts and all. I am able to be intimate and completely honest with her, I have shared things with her that I never could have shared with my ex-wife (despite 16 years of marriage!). I am not deceived, this is not a perfect relationship, it has some very significant conflicts and difficulties, but this relationship is rich, emotional, complex, fulfilling, satisfying, caring, intimate - it makes me feel alive, valued, loved, cared for. I feel like a real man now, not just a withered shadow of a human being. 

I am still adjusting to a whole new reality, but I believe I am so much better off than I was. For the religious people, I am not living up to a perfect christian life...far from it...but I certainly wasn't before either. At least I can be me and be honest about my short comings and accept myself, and I know that god accepts me for who I am (albeit undoubtedly he would like me to change a few things...). My life is not morally perfect or pure, but my abject and utter misery has been replaced by a substantial measure of satisfaction and fulfillment in my life now. 

I certainly don't support the view that getting divorced will solve relationship problems or make life easier or happier for most people...but there does come a point where it is deeply destructive to remain in an abusive relationship, and after having done all that I could do to save my marriage, it became necessary for me to end the relationship. Having said that, it has been an incredibly painful experience, a long hard road to walk to get to where I am, but I am now relieved to be here, glad to be alive, free to feel emotions of joy and happiness at least some of the time.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my life on this forum.


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