# Off The Grid



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I have two friends whose wives have passed away in the last five years. 

Both have tried to get back into dating with no success at all. Zero, zip, nada, zilch, as the saying goes. I'm not sure what the problem is, but both of them have given me a very self-serving earful. 

They both have plans to drop off the grid entirely now. Both have bought land in remote areas and are busy digging wells and making plans to build simple cabins.

I'm curious. Is this just an aberration or have any of the rest of you witnessed this as well?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I have two friends whose wives have passed away in the last five years.
> 
> Both have tried to get back into dating with no success at all. Zero, zip, nada, zilch, as the saying goes. I'm not sure what the problem is, but both of them have given me a very self-serving earful.
> 
> ...


Never witnessed it myself yet, but a lonely cabin in the woods is a well known prerequisite. For what I'll leave to your imagination.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Never witnessed it myself yet, but a lonely cabin in the woods is a well known prerequisite. For what I'll leave to your imagination.


LOL - I've known both of these men for 25+ years. Other than being engineers, they seem to be pretty normal. 

On one hand I do understand the attraction of not owing anybody anything and not depending upon a utility company for power, water, sewer, etc. 

On the other hand, though, I doubt if I could handle that lonely of an existence....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> LOL - I've known both of these men for 25+ years. Other than being engineers, they seem to be pretty normal.


We can fool most of the people most of the time 



> On the other hand, though, I doubt if I could handle that
> lonely of an existence....


That's presumably why you're not an engineer.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I'm curious. Is this just an aberration or have any of the rest of you witnessed this as well?


I think once they're off the grid in their minds then that may be when they hit the grid to women around them. A lot of women are just as scared as your friends and they don't like playing the dating game either. Now that your friends have aren't looking and aren't trying so hard, they will be more natural and will be noticed in their environment. Thus approachable and safe.

That's my opinion anyway even though is follows a Cliché.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I think once they're off the grid in their minds then that may be when they hit the grid to women around them....


I hadn't thought of that. 

I recently inherited a collection of historical materials from the American West. One of the most striking things (To me, anyway) is the scarcity of women. 

If I were seriously looking for a relationship at my age, I would probably relocate to one of the coasts. Becoming a mountain man/recluse out in the middle of nowhere seems counterproductive, but what do I know...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I hadn't thought of that.
> 
> I recently inherited a collection of historical materials from the American West. One of the most striking things (To me, anyway) is the scarcity of women in every single picture.
> 
> If I were seriously looking for a relationship at my age, I would probably relocate to one of the coasts. *Becoming a mountain man/recluse out in the middle of nowhere seems counterproductive, but what do I know*...


You know your friends and you live in the same area so you know more than I do. I just believe that love is hard to find when someone's searching for it but it shows up out of nowhere when they're not looking for it. Maybe that doesn't apply here?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I hadn't thought of that.
> 
> I recently inherited a collection of historical materials from the American West. One of the most striking things (To me, anyway) is the scarcity of women in every single picture.
> 
> If I were seriously looking for a relationship at my age, I would probably relocate to one of the coasts. Becoming a mountain man/recluse out in the middle of nowhere seems counterproductive, but what do I know...


It _is_ counterproductive. They may do that for a little while. I know a couple of gentlemen who rejoined the fray once they healed for that little while.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Very unlikely to meet human women like that. A sasquatch lady, maybe.

I could see taking that course if Mrs. Conan passed but I really like visiting and socializing so I would have to be devastated and need some peace to go off like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Its definitely a form of self protection.


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

If Edna passed away, I would likely do the same exact thing. (Fortunately she's as strong as an ox, having birthed 6 children, and is likely to outlive me by decades.) People's attitudes towards relationships these days seem to revolve around head-games and power-struggles. It simply isn't worth the investment of time and effort to attempt to get to know someone when they cannot be themselves, as they are too busy being someone else some self-proclaimed self-help-guru or internet-fad-sensation claims they are supposed to be.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Very unlikely to meet human women like that. *A sasquatch lady, maybe*.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This could be accomplished in the office building I work in.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

There is farmersonly.com

Maybe they need to add a off grid section?


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> This could be accomplished in the office building I work in.


You work with lesbians/feminists?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Never witnessed it myself yet, but a lonely cabin in the woods is a well known prerequisite. For what I'll leave to your imagination.


I find a cabin in the middle of nowhere quite appealing.

But I also fine MOST people to be very selfish and annoying so getting away from civilization = happy.

Just me though

I would LOVE to live in a remote area, my wife would too. And if I was to look for another women, it would be a deal breaker if she wouldn't do it.....


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Methuselah said:


> If Edna passed away, I would likely do the same exact thing. (Fortunately she's as strong as an ox, having birthed 6 children, and is likely to outlive me by decades.) People's attitudes towards relationships these days seem to revolve around head-games and power-struggles. It simply isn't worth the investment of time and effort to attempt to get to know someone when they cannot be themselves, as they are too busy being someone else some self-proclaimed self-help-guru or internet-fad-sensation claims they are supposed to be.


Well said!

I'm shocked you live in the city, but admire your thoughts.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'd do it. I've picked out an area. I suspect I could buy a parcel up there any time. nor good farm land only good for ranching. 

In fact my family is pretty crafty about keeping me civilized. I think they Know I'm one frustration away from escape.
MN


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'd do it. I've picked out an area. I suspect I could buy a parcel up there any time. nor good farm land only good for ranching.
> 
> In fact my family is pretty crafty about keeping me civilized. I think they Know I'm one frustration away from escape.
> MN


X2, looking at land too.

Wife and I seem to be So much more happier.....the farther away from people/civilization we get. All of our life we have been taught to socialize/be popular etc etc......and older we get the more we realize that both of those are WAY too over rated and quite opposite from what we really want.

Weird, but it is what it is.

We do enjoy outdoors, quiet, peace and tranquility.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

I understand it completely. I think its a "man" thing for sure. The need to get away from it all, not have to deal with anyone you don't want to, etc. I believe many men feel this way, but most WIVES don't. Its not until the wife is gone that the idea can really be pushed. 

I'm fortunate to live in a fairly remote place now. 10 miles to town, nearest neighbor 3/4 mile away. After 25 years in the city, my wife was even up for up for moving out. I grew up in the country, so its a natural for me, but she gets a little stir crazy at times. 

We're not "off the grid", as there have been power lines thru this area for many years. Anyway, I think its pretty common in men, ever since Green Acres.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Forest said:


> I understand it completely. I think its a "man" thing for sure. The need to get away from it all, not have to deal with anyone you don't want to, etc. I believe many men feel this way, but most WIVES don't. Its not until the wife is gone that the idea can really be pushed.
> 
> I'm fortunate to live in a fairly remote place now. 10 miles to town, nearest neighbor 3/4 mile away. After 25 years in the city, my wife was even up for up for moving out. I grew up in the country, so its a natural for me, but she gets a little stir crazy at times.
> 
> We're not "off the grid", as there have been power lines thru this area for many years. Anyway, I think its pretty common in men, ever since Green Acres.


My wife seems to be the same way (thank god).


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I could live in a tent, but worry about being THAT isolated after experiencing the support we have had this past year.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Forest said:


> I
> 
> We're not "off the grid", as there have been power lines thru this area for many years. Anyway, I think its pretty common in men, ever since Green Acres.


All the better if you can make pancakes and head gaskets at the same time.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

To me, off the grid living means: simple, cheap, and peaceful. It has nothing to do with attracting another mate. I'm assuming that there are women who find that way of living appealing, too. 

I'm currently 'on the grid' in a big house, desired neighborhood, and well located city that was conducive to raising kids (youngest in college), convenience, and plenty of options. I'm ready to ditch it all. Too much work and expense for things I no longer need.


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## Kresaera (Nov 8, 2014)

I would totally live off the grid, of course I would take my little family with me... The daughter and I cooking and cleaning while the guys go hunting for our food? Totally. It would never happen though, my husband and my son are gamers and my daughter is quite spoiled. A girl can dream though right?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I would NEVER want to live off the grid - I enjoy civilization way too much. I want my Thai food. I want electronics shops, international airports, movie theaters, high speed internet, etc. 

The fantasy of living "on my own" doesn't appeal. I still need to buy spark plugs, gasoline, cans of soda, shoes, watch batteries, database updates for my airplane, underwear, etc. that I know that these are manufactured all over the world. 

The ability to eat salmon with mango sauce is a miracle of modern civilizatoin - one I'm not willing to give up.

I'm just not a very manly man. I've seen parts of the world were people use few imports, and read about what life was like when there was only local trade - its not the way I want to live.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I think living off the grid means different things to different people. It could mean that you live in a location so remote that no one ever visits because it takes hours to get there, and the nearest neighbor is miles away. Or it could mean that you detach yourself from the bothersome, unnecessary, and expensive encumbrances of modern living. 

For instance, if you owned your home and vehicles free and clear, owed no one any money, generated your own heat and cooling (geothermal anyone?), and generated your own electricity, that would be remarkably detached in terms of dependencies and obligations. That's what I would like. I could do that without being too remote. 

The other aspect of modern life that bothers me is the way information about me is everywhere. Every financial, medical, and business entity can look me up and find ridiculous bits of info on me if they want. I'd prefer to remain invisible for the most part. That would be 'off the grid' in a sense.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

VermisciousKnid said:


> To me, off the grid living means: simple, cheap, and peaceful.


I guess I should have clarified that. In the case of my two friends, "Off the grid" basically means off the information grid, similar to Stephen Hunter's character, Bobby Lee Swagger, or Jim Grant's character Jack Reacher. (Minus the action hero aspect in both cases.) 

Simple, cheap and peaceful is a good start, but there is also an, "I'm fed up and sick of people and increasingly intrusive technology" aspect too.

[Edit]

You've fleshed the idea out a little more above. I think you're spot on.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I guess I should have clarified that. In the case of my two friends, "Off the grid" basically means off the information grid, similar to Stephen Hunter's character, Bobby Lee Swagger, or Jim Grant's character Jack Reacher. (Minus the action hero aspect in both cases.)
> 
> Simple, cheap and peaceful is a good start, but there is also an, "I'm fed up and sick of people and increasingly intrusive technology" aspect too.


I can certainly understand the allure of living in a cabin in the Montana back country and not seeing another living person for weeks at a time, nothing but the sound of the wind in the trees on a fall day, but it had better come with a reliable high-speed internet connection.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I love this woman's life. If I were unmarried and childless you may very well find me like this...

Ende of the Trail


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## mpgunner (Jul 15, 2014)

After I have had such great intimacy I can not image going off the grid. I would simple go crazy...


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

DoF said:


> I'm shocked you live in the city, but admire your thoughts.


I grew up in SE Missouri, my career brought me to the city (I actually live further west, towards Aurora, then in the city itself). There are aspects of rural living I enjoy, but with 6 children, 15 grandchildren and now a growing collection of great-grandchildren, I seriously doubt I would ever leave despite saying so


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> In the case of my two friends, "Off the grid" basically means off the information grid, similar to Stephen Hunter's character, Bobby Lee Swagger, or Jim Grant's character Jack Reacher.


I was thinking more like the place Arnold had in the beginning of "Commando" (doubt my biceps could ever get big enough o carry a redwood as he was though )


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Methuselah said:


> I grew up in SE Missouri, my career brought me to the city (I actually live further west, towards Aurora, then in the city itself). There are aspects of rural living I enjoy, but with 6 children, 15 grandchildren and now a growing collection of great-grandchildren, I seriously doubt I would ever leave despite saying so




I have 4....no grandkids.......

We are not planning on buying land until they are older and can help us build.

But I can see a big plot of land with whole bunch of small houses for all family in the next decade......


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> To me, off the grid living means: simple, cheap, and peaceful. It has nothing to do with attracting another mate. I'm assuming that there are women who find that way of living appealing, too.
> 
> I'm currently 'on the grid' in a big house, desired neighborhood, and well located city that was conducive to raising kids (youngest in college), convenience, and plenty of options. I'm ready to ditch it all. Too much work and expense for things I no longer need.


That's about how I feel.

Mind you, we h ave a 1600 sq ft house with 4 kids......but we feel even that's too big.

Wife and I want something in the 1000 sq ft range, possibly even smaller.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I can certainly understand the allure of living in a cabin in the Montana back country and not seeing another living person for weeks at a time, nothing but the sound of the wind in the trees on a fall day, but it had better come with a reliable high-speed internet connection.


NOOOICE

As long as I have internet, I'm fine. High Speed is a plus!

That's perfect dose of human interaction....over the PC.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Kresaera said:


> I would totally live off the grid, of course I would take my little family with me... The daughter and I cooking and cleaning while the guys go hunting for our food? Totally. It would never happen though, my husband and my son are gamers and my daughter is quite spoiled. A girl can dream though right?


Now here's a gal that we could use a lot more like.

Kresaera- lets say you lived out in the boonies, an hour from a Home Depot or Mall. Plenty of land for cattle, a garden, etc. 10 miles away there's a good grocery store, hardware, feed, lumber yard, etc. The basics. I'll bet you could deal with that just fine except for maybe 1-2 trips to the "big city" a year, right?

You could probably make yourself happy all day long maintaining the place, and be quite content in the evenings if you had internet access, right?

That's my set up, I think its a dream. A bright young kid nearby set up a tower on a hill and beams unlimited high speed internet to anyone who can get the signal for $40/month. I don't have TV, just Hulu and Amazon prime.

Still, I get so many people that tell me they'd miss the "convenience" of the city. What do you need so bad? Traffic?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Forest said:


> Now here's a gal that we could use a lot more like.
> 
> Kresaera- lets say you lived out in the boonies, an hour from a Home Depot or Mall. Plenty of land for cattle, a garden, etc. 10 miles away there's a good grocery store, hardware, feed, lumber yard, etc. The basics. I'll bet you could deal with that just fine except for maybe 1-2 trips to the "big city" a year, right?
> 
> ...


I'd give my left nut for a setup like that. Slowly working towards it. High speed internet is a must, I make my money on the web.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

isn't this every man's goal? heck, I want that. Living off the grid doesn't have to be this sad, "I'm giving up" situation. I can't imagine anything sexier than a frontiersman. Imagine them coming into town once in a blue moon and knowing that he works his own land and makes his own livelihood, hunts his food, full beard and all. There will be plenty of ladies into that. Hey, you gotta go into town every once in a while to see if you have mail in the PO box off grid or not


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Adeline said:


> isn't this every man's goal?


Not necessarily. I got more than my fill of this sort of thing a long, long time ago.

I like people and I'm going to spend the rest of my days around them.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I can certainly understand the allure of living in a cabin in the Montana back country and not seeing another living person for weeks at a time, nothing but the sound of the wind in the trees on a fall day, but it had better come with a reliable high-speed internet connection.


This. I've told my wife that my goal is to live as far away from the city as possible, as long as the cable company will run a line and the UPS driver has a way to get to me.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> This. I've told my wife that my goal is to live as far away from the city as possible, as long as the cable company will run a line and the UPS driver has a way to get to me.


The UPS driver had a hard time getting to me at times. My driveway is shared and they'd get lost. I had some professionally made signs done for the junction so now they can find their way.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I like people and I'm going to spend the rest of my days around them.


This is probably the primary driver for people.

You see, I grew up in the big city > moved to suburbs (but still pretty urban area)....and have been around people for so long.......I'm simply tired of them. Sure there are many great people out there.....but I find many keep to themselves and don't want to deal with other people's drama/BS. 

Guessing you went thru the opposite, grew up around nature/not many people and now you desire the opposite.Give it 10-20 years around lots of people and I would be curious about how you feel.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Personally, I've always wanted to buy some land in a remote area and live in a yurt like this:










I find the idea of living away from people hugely appealing. Somewhere that I can own a pack of dogs, shoot my bow & arrow or guns with no one around to complain or bother me.

As it is, I'm currently stuck in a "nesting ground" suburban neighborhood.

:rofl:


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Personally, I've always wanted to buy some land in a remote area and live in a yurt like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that but a yurt lacks insulation and mosquito protection in colder climates.

For optimal self reliance purposes I'm going with a small house (not tiny) with great insulation/wood burning stove and GeoThermal for secondary source.

Not even a 2nd bedroom either. We will be living in a tiny house or a trailer while we build the main house, so that will be left for guests if needed.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Large one room cabin with a great loft 

I love the idea of yurts and living in the south could get by with one pretty easy. Looked at them for a while since we have acreage out of town. 

I'm like you DoF... tired of people but love them at the same time, so I pick my time strategically these days.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hmmmm... hadn't thought much about the insulation issue, DoF. Ok, here's another idea. These people converted a grain silo into a home, complete with interior drywall and insulation. I'm loving this one!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

That is awesome, wondering how hard it is to build.

I was gonna go with something simple. 8 foot wall on one side, 10ft on the other and Mono pitched shaped roof. Mostly to give it illusion of open space with higher ceiling on one side (I know yurt design does this as well).

Similar to this but I want overhangs on each side.....for water drainage purposes.









figure 18ft x 30 or 40' (long shed basically).

Should be fairly easy to build. Whenever you get into round shapes building/materials etc becomes complicated.

Believe it or not I'm designing it on Lego Designer and building a lego or wood model of it once the design is finalized.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Insulation is a huge factor if you live in a climate that gets any temperature extremes, hot or cold. I think that's a large part of the country. Of course, they didn't have insulation and modern heating systems 100 years ago and they survived, but us modern folk would find that way of living too harsh.

I suppose if you live in a region that stays between 30-80 all the time you could get by with minimal amounts of insulation without experiencing huge heating/cooling bills or extreme discomfort. 

Oh, if you heard about that ceramic paint that insulates... It's a fraud. Funny story about that here: 

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-paint-salesman-tripped-his-own-product

Recycled shipping container house:


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I was thinking about spray insulation but I'm turned off by it (nasty chemicals)

Rockwool is #1 on my list right now. It's expensive, but boy, soundproofing on it is awesome and it doesn't burn.

Also, one of the guys I work with (used to be general contractor/builder) used .75 inch foam on the outside of the house prior to siding WITH insulation still on the inside and it worked great.

I think I might go down this route. As SEAL is the most important key here. Putting foam insulation on the outside seals the deal better than spray insulation (as 2x4s is still not insulated itself).

Also, I remember they used to spray a thick layer of foam back in the day and cut it to 2x4 flush. Now days, it seems thin and there is a air gap between sheetrock and insulation. weird.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Nice off grid vacation home.

http://youtu.be/k9JX0KS0iv4


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

DoF said:


> I was thinking about spray insulation but I'm turned off by it (nasty chemicals)


Yeah, the closed cell foam spray insulation is amazing in terms of insulating and providing a vapor barrier, but the out gassing does give me pause. And the price, too. When you have a house that is sealed as well as it is with the closed cell foam you have water vapor buildup to deal with, as well. Not sure what techniques are recommended for that. My 1950's house is insulated but there is enough air exchange with the outside so that we don't have a vapor problem. 

I've heard that there are plant based blown in insulations that don't have an out gassing problem but I've never seen the specs on them. I'm sure they are expensive. 



> Rockwool is #1 on my list right now. It's expensive, but boy, soundproofing on it is awesome and it doesn't burn.
> 
> Also, one of the guys I work with (used to be general contractor/builder) used .75 inch foam on the outside of the house prior to siding WITH insulation still on the inside and it worked great.
> 
> ...


I would like to have a small structure that is so well insulated that the BTU requirements are minimal. In the short term it's cheaper because your heating system is sized by house volume, local weather, and heat loss of the structure. For a given house and location the smaller your heat loss, the smaller your heating system. In the long term, it's going to be the cheapest way to go because you need to provide fewer BTUs to keep it warm/cool. 

Whether you are talking wood stove, furnace, geothermal, or ductless mini-split, smaller is cheaper to buy and cheaper to run. 

I have heard of foam on the outside. I wonder how much insulation and vapor resistance it provides?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I would like to have a small structure that is so well insulated that the BTU requirements are minimal. In the short term it's cheaper because your heating system is sized by house volume, local weather, and heat loss of the structure. For a given house and location the smaller your heat loss, the smaller your heating system. In the long term, it's going to be the cheapest way to go because you need to provide fewer BTUs to keep it warm/cool.
> 
> Whether you are talking wood stove, furnace, geothermal, or ductless mini-split, smaller is cheaper to buy and cheaper to run.
> 
> I have heard of foam on the outside. I wonder how much insulation and vapor resistance it provides?


My co worker says that his energy costs are extremely low (and his renters are amazed).

If you think about it, insulation between the studs still leaves a lot of cold coming in (even if sprayed) due to studs separating it. So if you overlay the entire outside with the foam sheet insulation, that's completely sealed (makes sense). Weird that it's not done more often, but it is not cheap (but I think it's worth it). 

What you said is a big part of why I want to keep my house under 1000 sq feet. Less is more (is my theory).

Wood stove is probably my primary source of heat, Window like AC unit for cooling (which is not really needed much where I live). From year to year for month or 2 IF that. 

And of course you have to have back up. Propane is out the window and gas is simply not obtainable in remote areas (where I live). So geothermal seems to be the way to go. 

For electricity, I would still like a connection but solar panels should do the trick. 

As much as I love big windows and lots of them, I will have to keep the #s down (but still have plenty). I would prefer to do a whole wall of windows, but we all know that will increase the energy cost and have an opposite effect of what I would like to achieve.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Our home addition was built using polysteel. You lay and glue foot-thick foam blocks, insert rebar, and pour concrete into the "Legos" to create high Rvalue walls that are nearly nuclear proof. The lack of studs causes some headaches when it comes to sheetrock, but there are enough metal plates buried in the styrofoam to screw just about anything to the wall.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

My brother in law lives in the sticks in NY and converted his heating/cooling system to geothermal. I believe he said he had two 100' wells sunk for the ground loops. He says it takes just pennies to run now. He has a pellet stove in the basement for backup heat. 

He also has a cr*pload of solar panels. In the summer he sells the excess electricity to the electric company and in the winter he buys it from them. At the end of the year they cut him a check because he sends them more than they send him! The electric company no longer does this for new customers, but he's grandfathered in. 

I think his initial costs for all of that technology was pretty high. I never asked him how long the payback on those systems was. A five year payback would be pretty attractive to me.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> My brother in law lives in the sticks in NY and converted his heating/cooling system to geothermal. I believe he said he had two 100' wells sunk for the ground loops. He says it takes just pennies to run now. He has a pellet stove in the basement for backup heat.
> 
> He also has a cr*pload of solar panels. In the summer he sells the excess electricity to the electric company and in the winter he buys it from them. At the end of the year they cut him a check because he sends them more than they send him! The electric company no longer does this for new customers, but he's grandfathered in.
> 
> I think his initial costs for all of that technology was pretty high. I never asked him how long the payback on those systems was. A five year payback would be pretty attractive to me.


Sounds awesome. Yea, solar panels are not cheap, but grandfathering that kind of a deal is awesome.

Where is he at? Catskills by any chance? I would LOVE to live there one day, i love those mountains. We visit at least twice a year.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

The home my ex-husband and I designed and built together 12 years ago was a beast. It was waterfront, elevated (18 steps up to the front door) with parking and outdoor entertaining space beneath, 4200 square feet of heated space. We did the entire building envelope - underside of roof, exterior walls, beneath first floor - with Icynene spray foam insulation (oversprayed and sawed back to the 2x6 studs) and fiberglass bats between rooms and between floors. The exterior had foamboard beneath the wood siding, as that's not all that uncommon here. The house, boat house, dock, and outdoor spaces were all on-grid standard electric. There's no natural gas available here, and propane, geothermal, and solar would all have had prohibitively expensive upfront costs (15-30 year recoup times) for our location. We never had a power bill over $300. My boss built a similar home about the same time we did using standard fiberglass insulation, and his electric bill was routinely $500+ a month, even with using propane for their water heaters and cooking. 

I would highly recommend well-researched and properly used spray foam insulation for new construction. But you absolutely do have to use it the right way, as part of an integrated HVAC and building system. Otherwise, it's an expensive road to ineffectual insulation, improperly sized HVAC components and moisture issues.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Rowan said:


> The home my ex-husband and I designed and built together 12 years ago was a beast. It was waterfront, elevated (18 steps up to the front door) with parking and outdoor entertaining space beneath, 4200 square feet of heated space and another 2000 of porches and decks, plus a dock and small boat house. We did the entire building envelope - underside of roof, exterior walls, beneath first floor - with Icynene spray foam insulation (oversprayed and sawed back to the 2x6 studs) and fiberglass bats between rooms and between floors. The exterior had foamboard beneath the wood siding and Tyvek, as that's not all that uncommon here. The house was all-electric. There's no natural gas available here, and propane, geothermal, and solar would all have had prohibitively expensive upfront costs for our location. We never had a power bill over $300. My boss built a similar home about the same time we did using standard fiberglass insulation, and his electric bill was routinely $500+ a month, even with using propane for their water heaters and cooking.
> 
> I would highly recommend well-researched and properly used spray foam insulation for new construction. But you absolutely do have to use it the right way, as part of an integrated HVAC and building system. Otherwise, it's an expensive road to ineffectual insulation, improperly sized HVAC components and moisture issues.


I find 4000 sq ft house to be an expensive road.....

1/4th that is even too big for my needs, but I'm a simple guy.....what can I say.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

DoF said:


> Sounds awesome. Yea, solar panels are not cheap, but grandfathering that kind of a deal is awesome.
> 
> Where is he at? Catskills by any chance? I would LOVE to live there one day, i love those mountains. We visit at least twice a year.


Yeah, I'm pretty jealous of his setup. 

It's the Taconic Mountains near the Massachusetts border.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty jealous of his setup.
> 
> It's the Taconic Mountains near the Massachusetts border.


That's a nice area too! Very nice


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

DoF said:


> I find 4000 sq ft house to be an expensive road.....
> 
> 1/4th that is even too big for my needs, but I'm a simple guy.....what can I say.


The point, though, is still sound. Properly utilized spray foam insulation is awesome stuff that can make a really huge difference in the amount of power it takes to run a home comfortably. It's not perfect for every instance, but it's a solid product to consider. YMMV, of course.


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

DoF said:


> I find 4000 sq ft house to be an expensive road.....


My home is 3500 sq ft. with a detached 1200sq ft garage/woodworking shop. The heating costs are astronomical, even though the house is very well insulated. Don't even get me started on the property taxes.

I could downsize to a 1200 sq ft. home and upsize to a 3500 sq. ft woodworking shop. I have not been able to convince Edna to allow me to "swap" the two, unfortunately.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Methuselah said:


> My home is 3500 sq ft. with a detached 1200sq ft garage/woodworking shop. The heating costs are astronomical, even though the house is very well insulated. Don't even get me started on the property taxes.
> 
> I could downsize to a 1200 sq ft. home and upsize to a 3500 sq. ft woodworking shop. I have not been able to convince Edna to allow me to "swap" the two, unfortunately.


That big of a house would make me feel creepy.....

Workshop that big though, pretty cool!


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

DoF said:


> That big of a house would make me feel creepy.....


It didn't start out that big, but as my family grew, we added on... and on... and on... six kids take up a lot of space 

I should have gone with the modular shipping-container homes, then I could have taken off bedrooms as the kids grew up and moved out 

It is still nice to have the space though, for holidays when our children and grandchildren who live out of state come to visit. Some holidays we have four generations under one roof.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Methuselah said:


> I should have gone with the modular shipping-container homes, then I could have taken off bedrooms as the kids grew up and moved out  *Brilliant idea!! And give away the parts to the homeless *
> 
> It is still nice to have the space though, for holidays when our children and grandchildren who live out of state come to visit. Some holidays we have four generations under one roof. *That sounds awesome, good for y'all!*


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Rowan, did you experience any out gassing?From the spray foam, that is? There are a number of class action lawsuits against the manufacturer, but from what I've read, the problems were caused by improper mixing/ratios of the chemicals as the foam was applied.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

If it was up to me I would live in the workshop and ditch the home entirely.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Rowan, did you experience any out gassing?From the spray foam, that is? There are a number of class action lawsuits against the manufacturer, but from what I've read, the problems were caused by improper mixing/ratios of the chemicals as the foam was applied.


Honestly, I don't like that there is even a REMOTE chance of any health effects etc with spray foam.

No thanks


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

DoF said:


> Honestly, I don't like that there is even a REMOTE chance of any health effects etc with spray foam.
> 
> No thanks


Yes. Even trace amounts of chemicals can an effect over time. It wouldn't necessarily have to be an eye irritating, rash producing reaction to cause harm.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Living off the grid sounds cool from my warm house with indoor plumbing surrounding by working vehicles and refrigerated food while typing on my computer with fast internet speeds while watching netflix. "off the grid" would not be so easy.

Waking up cold at 3am because the wood burned out sucks. I remember that as a kid. Going outside to get firewood at 3:30am to load the stove is no fun. A shabby outhouse doesn't sound so fun (which I never had to deal with). My granddad almost died from an outhouse visit due to black widow spiders chomping his nads. Not cool. Being stuck at home unable to leave when sick doesn't sound so great.

"off the grid" sounds cool but I think reality would change a few minds about the fantasy if we all had to try it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> My granddad almost died from an outhouse visit due to black widow spiders *chomping his nads.* Not cool.




Yikes, you're right... living in an uninsulated Yurt doesn't sound so cool now!


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

DoF said:


> I find 4000 sq ft house to be an expensive road.....
> 
> 1/4th that is even too big for my needs, but I'm a simple guy.....what can I say.


My hat is off to you. That is very responsible, conservative thinking. I could go as low as maybe 1200 SF, but my wife nixed that idea quickly. Have to admit I like to spread out a little bit. Our house is 2100 SF, two bedrooms and a bath are off by themselves with a separate zone for the A/C, etc and are shut off most of the time. That is for when daughter/son in law visit.

The rest of the house is cheap to cool with our geothermal unit, and heat is mostly supplied by wood stove, with me cutting the wood.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

DoF said:


> That is awesome, wondering how hard it is to build.
> 
> I was gonna go with something simple. 8 foot wall on one side, 10ft on the other and Mono pitched shaped roof. Mostly to give it illusion of open space with higher ceiling on one side (I know yurt design does this as well).
> 
> ...


Wish I could see the picture. I'm wondering about the roof. If you're not able to insulate between ceiling and roof, the foam question comes up again.

A radiant barrier under the roof might be good, too.
Attic Foil Radiant Barrier - AtticFoil® Do-It-Yourself Radiant Barrier Foil Insulation

I highly recommend Huber Zipwall/Ziproof system. You've probably noticed the green sheathing appearing in the last 5 years or so. I used this and am a big believer. OSB with a rubberish outer coating. Superior product, and no need for the old house-wrap.

I'm also a big fan of 2x6 framing, and acid stained concrete floors.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Rowan, did you experience any out gassing?From the spray foam, that is? There are a number of class action lawsuits against the manufacturer, but from what I've read, the problems were caused by improper mixing/ratios of the chemicals as the foam was applied.


Not anything that we noticed. No smell, no irritation, etc. I'm pretty sensitive to stuff like that, so I imagine I would have noticed if it had been an issue. But, then, we were under construction for nearly a full year after the insulation was put in. It's possible that any off-gassing that happened was finished with before we were actually living in the home. The glacially slow pace of DIY building might have eliminated that as a problem in our case.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Living off the grid sounds cool from my warm house with indoor plumbing surrounding by working vehicles and refrigerated food while typing on my computer with fast internet speeds while watching netflix. "off the grid" would not be so easy.
> 
> Waking up cold at 3am because the wood burned out sucks. I remember that as a kid. Going outside to get firewood at 3:30am to load the stove is no fun. A shabby outhouse doesn't sound so fun (which I never had to deal with). My granddad almost died from an outhouse visit due to black widow spiders chomping his nads. Not cool. Being stuck at home unable to leave when sick doesn't sound so great.
> 
> "off the grid" sounds cool but I think reality would change a few minds about the fantasy if we all had to try it.


I've actually lived "off grid". As awesome as people imagine it to be, there's plenty of suck to go around as well.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

What would you say are the down sides?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> What would you say are the down sides?


Couldn't be the unrelenting work, could it?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

For me, isolation eventually leads crazy weirdness. It is where quirks and idiosyncrasies became pathological. In many ways I am happy alone but that isn’t the same thing as isolation.
Isolation while getting older has even less appeal. I have done enough winter camping and stays at ski in cabins to feel wood heating is great for a weekend but as your only source of heat it is just a messy pain in the butt. Outhouses are a nonstarter. 
I have a single friend who doesn’t strike me as an obvious “catch” but he has had lots of success finding women. I can say even from hearing his side only that the relationships always falter because of him. He is moderately religious and usually goes on the websites that are nominally Christian. I suppose it shouldn’t really be a surprise but that label seems to have a vast range of meanings to the various members.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> What would you say are the down sides?





Nucking Futs said:


> Couldn't be the unrelenting work, could it?


The unrelenting work is a big part of it. I also like modern conveniences and amenities. Camping for a few weeks at a stretch is fun. Living for a few years completely off-grid in a remote location can be much less so. Even things you enjoy doing can become an onerous job if you are required to do them unrelentingly. 

For me, living on acreage in a modern house within a few miles of a small town is ideal. I just don't want to do the whole 'completely off-grid, mountain man, heat your own water to wash in over a wood stove' bit again for extended periods if I can help it. Cabin fever is a real thing.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Rowan said:


> For me, living on acreage in a modern house within a few miles of a small town is ideal. I just don't want to do the whole 'completely off-grid, mountain man, heat your own water to wash in over a wood stove' bit again for extended periods if I can help it. Cabin fever is a real thing.


Agreed, x2

I don't want an extreme, but plenty of land, 2 heating sources (wood stove + geo thermal) and within 20-30 to stores etc and I'm good.

Not trying to hunting either......


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