# script from wife?



## delta88

Alright, Ill give this a try here. Ive been living together with my wife for about 16 years and have been married for 12. No time-served I know. We have a 13 and a 10 year old boys, both health and happy. 

The other night her cousin, girlfriend, their boy, and us spend the night over at our home. We played karaoke and had a good time until about midnight when everyone went to bed. I awoke about 5:30am to notice my son was sleeping in my bed with me so I figured I’d look and see if my wife ended up sleeping on the couch. As I walked to the living room, the front door suddenly opened and my wife walked through the door with her coat on and everything. Once it hit me what happened I asked where she was all night and then there was a sinking feeling in the bottom of my stomach.

At this point I was sort of upset as she was basically telling me she isn’t dealing with this right now. It went more like “blah blah blah, who cares” attitude towards me once she realized I knew she had been out somewhere. She went to the bathroom and fell asleep on our bathroom floor after she was done. 

The next evening, well after she slept it off, I confronted her about where she was . We have been down this road before too where she takes off and gives me her version of what happened while she was gone. This time I had enough. I demanded to know where she was and what she was doing. Apparently she went to the local bar and sat by herself until closing. She basically said that it was pathetic how she sat there by herself all night and it was pointless doing it. Then I replied that you didn’t get home until after 5am so where were you from closing until you got home? She replied that she must have passed out in our car in the driveway.

Alarm bells were ringing now. We got into a heavy discussion and she broke down in tears saying she thought there was something a matter with her and that she never wanted to drink again. It caught me off guard. Her guilt was so profound I could only hug her as I didn’t like to have her feel this way. Things like “you mean so much to me” and “it was so stupid for doing that” came up. So I ask her what went on and who she talked too. She assured me she spoke to only females and there were only couples there but her story was short and vague as usual.

Well today was Sunday and we were going to go shopping. We got into the car she was out in that night and the radio was cranked on a dance station. We laughed initially but then I asked her if she danced at the bar. She told me she did but only with women. How did this go from sitting like a loser by herself to dancing with the girls? My heart just dropped and I asked her why she told me last night that nothing went on. Her reply was that I didn’t ask! When we spoke the night before, I asked her directly to tell me everything that went on and this didn’t come up. Strange I know but she went back to the “I knew you’d react this way” script and that my reaction was the problem. 

My wife then went in her usual mode that I am throwing this in her face and I’m overreacting to everything as usual and that I have trust issues. This was followed the” I don’t care what you think I did” attitude. At this point I realized the pattern of her doing this same thing since we got together. Then it predictably shifts to “the stuff that goes on in your head?” comments. Today it was different though as I needed answers where the blame wasn’t centred on me. We were in the front seat of the car together and she just shut down closing her eyes and facing out the other window for the ride back home.

Now she wants our third separation and says that she shouldn’t be putting me through this. By the time she came home, she flipped again and wants to come home and I can’t stop her until we settle. We live in a small town too which has to help.

My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me? Every time she did this in the past I’ve never investigated what she told me and just trusted her. My gut feeling was telling me to look into things and it got worse once she gave her reaction. And she always tells me this is all in my head yet she is still taking off and I’m left to rationalize why she always does this.

On an unrelated manner, while having our coffee this morning she told me of a new job she was taking in the same government agency she works. Not really thinking about much I asked her if the job was in the same buildings and she replied no. Then I asked her where it was and she said “down there” while hesitating. I asked her curiously “down where?” based on her reaction. The pie hit the fan at this point and she went weirdly defensive saying how she has supposed to be training there this week but never told me where it was or that she knew the of the location. This is not like my wife at all as she has to know where she is going before she goes. And the fact that she mentioned that she spoke to a co-worker that told her of the position to apply for. I know my wife and that she would know without a doubt where the office the potential job was located. Stupid I know but her reaction puzzled me. Then she flipped completely and said she doesn’t tell me things like this because of how weird I get. How did a stupid detail like this cause such an emotional reaction in my wife? If it were her asking me I would care less???


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## delta88

And our second last separation she refused my suggestion of going to MC and said that if we cant sort this out ourselves that we shouldn't be together. Obviously this was my suggestion.

I can interact with my wife one the phone at her cubicle but she doesn't have much to do with me in our home life. Almost like she puts on an act on the phone.


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## aine

delta88 said:


> Alright, Ill give this a try here. Ive been living together with my wife for about 16 years and have been married for 12. No time-served I know. We have a 13 and a 10 year old boys, both health and happy.
> 
> The other night her cousin, girlfriend, their boy, and us spend the night over at our home. We played karaoke and had a good time until about midnight when everyone went to bed. I awoke about 5:30am to notice my son was sleeping in my bed with me so I figured I’d look and see if my wife ended up sleeping on the couch. As I walked to the living room, the front door suddenly opened and my wife walked through the door with her coat on and everything. Once it hit me what happened I asked where she was all night and then there was a sinking feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
> 
> At this point I was sort of upset as she was basically telling me she isn’t dealing with this right now. It went more like “blah blah blah, who cares” attitude towards me once she realized I knew she had been out somewhere. She went to the bathroom and fell asleep on our bathroom floor after she was done.
> 
> The next evening, well after she slept it off, I confronted her about where she was . We have been down this road before too where she takes off and gives me her version of what happened while she was gone. This time I had enough. I demanded to know where she was and what she was doing. Apparently she went to the local bar and sat by herself until closing. She basically said that it was pathetic how she sat there by herself all night and it was pointless doing it. Then I replied that you didn’t get home until after 5am so where were you from closing until you got home? She replied that she must have passed out in our car in the driveway.
> 
> Alarm bells were ringing now. We got into a heavy discussion and she broke down in tears saying she thought there was something a matter with her and that she never wanted to drink again. It caught me off guard. Her guilt was so profound I could only hug her as I didn’t like to have her feel this way. Things like “you mean so much to me” and “it was so stupid for doing that” came up. So I ask her what went on and who she talked too. She assured me she spoke to only females and there were only couples there but her story was short and vague as usual.
> 
> Well today was Sunday and we were going to go shopping. We got into the car she was out in that night and the radio was cranked on a dance station. We laughed initially but then I asked her if she danced at the bar. She told me she did but only with women. How did this go from sitting like a loser by herself to dancing with the girls? My heart just dropped and I asked her why she told me last night that nothing went on. Her reply was that I didn’t ask! When we spoke the night before, I asked her directly to tell me everything that went on and this didn’t come up. Strange I know but she went back to the “I knew you’d react this way” script and that my reaction was the problem.
> 
> My wife then went in her usual mode that I am throwing this in her face and I’m overreacting to everything as usual and that I have trust issues. This was followed the” I don’t care what you think I did” attitude. At this point I realized the pattern of her doing this same thing since we got together. Then it predictably shifts to “the stuff that goes on in your head?” comments. Today it was different though as I needed answers where the blame wasn’t centred on me. We were in the front seat of the car together and she just shut down closing her eyes and facing out the other window for the ride back home.
> 
> Now she wants our third separation and says that she shouldn’t be putting me through this. By the time she came home, she flipped again and wants to come home and I can’t stop her until we settle. We live in a small town too which has to help.
> 
> My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me? Every time she did this in the past I’ve never investigated what she told me and just trusted her. My gut feeling was telling me to look into things and it got worse once she gave her reaction. And she always tells me this is all in my head yet she is still taking off and I’m left to rationalize why she always does this.
> 
> On an unrelated manner, while having our coffee this morning she told me of a new job she was taking in the same government agency she works. Not really thinking about much I asked her if the job was in the same buildings and she replied no. Then I asked her where it was and she said “down there” while hesitating. I asked her curiously “down where?” based on her reaction. The pie hit the fan at this point and she went weirdly defensive saying how she has supposed to be training there this week but never told me where it was or that she knew the of the location. This is not like my wife at all as she has to know where she is going before she goes. And the fact that she mentioned that she spoke to a co-worker that told her of the position to apply for. I know my wife and that she would know without a doubt where the office the potential job was located. Stupid I know but her reaction puzzled me. Then she flipped completely and said she doesn’t tell me things like this because of how weird I get. How did a stupid detail like this cause such an emotional reaction in my wife? If it were her asking me I would care less???


Delta, your wife is leading you on a very merry dance. Her behaviour is unacceptable in a marriage and has to be dealt with now. You must sit her down and confront her and if she throws tantrums then tell her you will be forced to take drastic action. She may well be cheating on you or has some serious behavioural issues. Investigate and don't give up just because she stonewalls you because this is what she is doing. You say that she has done this before? If she has and you haven't bothered to deal with it, it has become the norm in your marriage when it should not be considered as the norm. Don't let this go, act. I am a woman and feel that there is something really off here.


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## delta88

Thanks for the reply aine. My Mother said I should separate finances at this point and let my wife decide how she wants to carry on.

Haven't spoke with my mother in almost a year. This was after my wife went to the bar and then ignored me when I went to get her at 1am. She actually walked away from me in our family car while I was calling her name. She and her friends were laughing at me while they walked away saying things like "is that my husband" or "no, that's my husband. Actually, she pretended not to know who I was when I asked her to come home and I was crushed.

Long story short, I thought my mother lied when she said my wife told her she saw me at the bar but ignored me. Then after I got home with my tail between my legs, my wife knocked at the front door with her female drinking friend and wanted me to give he friend a ride home. The gall. 

My grandmother passed away that morning and I really wanted to be with my wife as I was in a rough spot. This all happened when i had to be at work at 6am the next morning too. My mother and I spent the evening watching TV and she got to listen to me stall and make excuses about going to get my wife for as long as i could.

After my wife walked home and her friend left got we got into it and she told me why couldn't I be a normal husband? She freaked and went all red and thought she was going to hit me at this point. I came home from work and fed my kids and waited for my wife to come back. She went directly from work to her friends to drink and then to a Halloween party at the bar. I was blown away when I went in the bar and saw the gathering she went too. People were in costumes and the bar was packed but i couldn't see her.

As I was walking back to my car parked in front of the bar, all of the sudden her and her friends all magically appeared outside the front door. I was on foot initially and turned and said her name. There was just me standing out there maybe 15 feet from them and they all wouldn't look at me. Not sure how to explain it but the whole situation made me strangely confused. I jumped in our car and then pulled right up right beside her and her friends calling her name but she wouldn't acknowledge me. She was not seated where she told me she was in the bar either.

Her recollection of the evening was that the bar was quiet and she was just with the girls again.


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## delta88

I should probably mention that after her last episode of her taking off until 5am, she said she didn't know if she should be in a relationship anymore, then she just wept about how bad she felt. It was a deep cry too and I love her with all my heart so I comforted her.


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## EleGirl

I agree with your mother... separate your finances. You wife is going to do what she wants to do. She thinks that you will just be there for her while she plays games.

Perhaps you need to start interacting with her according to the 180... see link below.


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## delta88

EleGirl,

I hope you don't mind me asking why the link to 180 is under surviving an affair and is this something i should consider?


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## *LittleDeer*

Even if your wife is not unfaithful, she has huge problems. The first is she doesn't respect you at all. That's why at the very least you need to do the 180 and insist on separation and counselling. 

You need good boundaries. At the moment she knows she can walk all over you.


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## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> I hope you don't mind me asking why the link to 180 is under surviving an affair and is this something i should consider?


I was not suggesting that she might be having an affair.

This particular 180 is one that we often suggest to someone whose spouse is involved in an affair. But it will also help in your case even if there is no affair.

The idea of that 180 is for you to start separating emotionally form your wife. Stop giving her emotional support. Stop talking to her about her drunk nights out and trying to figure out her odd behavior and things she says. Pull away.

You need to start taking care of yourself. She is basically emotionally playing with you and even emotionally blackmailing you. Either you shut up, give her support for her way out of hand behavior or she is going to leave you.

She expects you to behave the way you always have. Well it's time for you to stop behaving how you always have and start protecting yourself.

Basically this 180 works in extreme cases.

Now could she be having affairs? Your guess on that is probably better than mine. It sounds like she has plenty of opportunity. But who knows.

If you want to find out you could search for the evidence thread and do some snooping. I sure would if my husband was sneaking out at all hours of the night to supposedly sit alone and drink at a bar.


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## aine

EleGirl said:


> I was not suggesting that she might be having an affair.
> 
> This particular 180 is one that we often suggest to someone whose spouse is involved in an affair. But it will also help in your case even if there is no affair.
> 
> The idea of that 180 is for you to start separating emotionally form your wife. Stop giving her emotional support. Stop talking to her about her drunk nights out and trying to figure out her odd behavior and things she says. Pull away.
> 
> You need to start taking care of yourself. She is basically emotionally playing with you and even emotionally blackmailing you. Either you shut up, give her support for her way out of hand behavior or she is going to leave you.
> 
> She expects you to behave the way you always have. Well it's time for you to stop behaving how you always have and start protecting yourself.
> 
> Basically this 180 works in extreme cases.
> 
> Now could she be having affairs? Your guess on that is probably better than mine. It sounds like she has plenty of opportunity. But who knows.
> 
> If you want to find out you could search for the evidence thread and do some snooping. I sure would if my husband was sneaking out at all hours of the night to supposedly sit alone and drink at a bar.


Agree with Elegirl, your wife is not respecting you at all and is engaging in emotional abuse of you. You need to establish boundaries as to what is acceptable and not acceptable (coming from someone who didn't and is in a mess right now). You tell her you are ready to talk when she is but apply the 180 and live your life, take care of yourself and your kids. You have allowed her to get away with too much. What is causing her to do this is unclear but regardless if you are willing to hear her out it doesn't mean you have to take that kind of treatment. Change the rules of the game today.


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## aine

How much alcohol does your wife consume? Is it possible she has a drinking problem? Some of the bizarre behaviour might stem from that? Just wondering?


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## delta88

She was basically tickle truthing me on what happened that night at the bar. After I pressed the questions, she said I should ask the bartender what she was doing if I didn't believe her. 

Why should I have to ask the bartender (female of course according to wife) what she was doing?

Not sure she would have ever told me if I didn't catch her walking in the door either. It's like I don't even know who she is anymore as weird as it is to say


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## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> Not sure she would have ever told me if I didn't catch her walking in the door either. It's like I don't even know who she is anymore as weird as it is to say


Sadly it's not weird. People change. Sometimes for the worse. 

Besides doing the 180, you might want to look for a good book or two on how to set and maintain good boundaries. You wife is walking all over you. You need to set up strong boundaries and let her know that you will not allow yourself to be treated this way. 

Your kids need to see you do this too. It's a very important lesson for them to learn.. to not let anyone abuse them emotionally and walk all over them.


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## delta88

aine said:


> How much alcohol does your wife consume? Is it possible she has a drinking problem? Some of the bizarre behaviour might stem from that? Just wondering?


She comes from a family of alcoholism but doesn't drink excessively. Say once a week, but when she drinks she overdoes it. 


When her cousin was over and everyone went to sleep there was plenty of alcohol in the house too. 

I will check our bank account to see if a larger purchase close to the the bar closing time to see if she bought off-sales.


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## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> She comes from a family of alcoholism but doesn't drink excessively. Say once a week, but when she drinks she overdoes it.
> 
> 
> When her cousin was over and everyone went to sleep there was plenty of alcohol in the house too.
> 
> I will check our bank account to see if a larger purchase close to the the bar closing time to see if she bought off-sales.


Even if she does not drink excessively every day, if alcohol consumption causes problems in her life .. even it is only occasionally.. she would be considered an alcoholic.

Drinking once a week and over doing it could be considered alcoholic behavior.

It's unclear from my vantage point if her going out like this is related to a binge alcohol issue, or if her going out is about being alone and/or with 'the girls' or if it's alcohol and men. I guessing that you are not sure either. But it seems that there is an ongoing problem and alcohol has something to do with it.

You might benefit from attending Al Anon to get support as a spouse of someone with an alcohol related problem. 

Are you familiar with the term "Co-dependency"? It's sounding like you might be co-dependent. The term basically means that a person puts their own needs aside while enabling someone the other person's destructive behaviors. It is a very normal reaction and way of handling a very bad situation. Al Anon can help you learn to sent boundaries and stop enabling her destructive behaviors.

There is a good book too..

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself


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## delta88

According to our account she only bought three drinks that night. Not that paints any clearer of a picture of what went on while she was gone.

The night she took off we were holding hands and kissing too before I went to sleep. Never once did she mention she wanted to go to a bar. She got home at 6pm and we were all together for the whole night?

Not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze anymore either.


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## delta88

I just read your post and feel foolish for letting this ever happen. Not sure what my reaction should be either. My emotions are all over the place at this point. 

I cannot show enough appreciation for the advice given and the resources pointed out. 

Thank you!


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## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> According to our account she only bought three drinks that night. Not that paints any clearer of a picture of what went on while she was gone.
> 
> The night she took off we were holding hands and kissing too before I went to sleep. Never once did she mention she wanted to go to a bar. She got home at 6pm and we were all together for the whole night?
> 
> Not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze anymore either.


She waited for you to go to sleep to sneak out. That is a HUGELY bad thing for her to do.


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## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> I just read your post and feel foolish for letting this ever happen. Not sure what my reaction should be either. My emotions are all over the place at this point.
> 
> I cannot show enough appreciation for the advice given and the resources pointed out.
> 
> Thank you!


Delta, do not spend much energy feeling foolish. 


Believe me if I told you my story... I was at least as foolish if not many times more. When we are in the mist of things it's hard to see the proverbial forest for the trees.

You have done what you thought was right. You sound like a decent guy. She took advantage of that. She might have a drinking problem or a mental health problem. Something just sounds very off.

At this point you, you do what you can do. And the first thing is t take care of yourself and your children.

You have flown on an airplane, right?

Well you know what they say about the oxygen masks, right? If you are flying with a child put your mask on first. Then put a mask on your child. Why? Because if you put the mask on the child, you will pass out before you can put a mask on yourself. So both you and your child will most likely die.

Take care of yourself. Your family/children depend on you.


Then after you are ok, you might be able to help your wife depending on what is going on .
.


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## aine

delta88 said:


> She comes from a family of alcoholism but doesn't drink excessively. Say once a week, but when she drinks she overdoes it.
> 
> 
> When her cousin was over and everyone went to sleep there was plenty of alcohol in the house too.
> 
> I will check our bank account to see if a larger purchase close to the the bar closing time to see if she bought off-sales.


As Elegirl says, alcoholics/alcohol dependents are not those who necessarily drink every day, they could be binge drinkers who only do it once every so many weeks. She might be one. But the damage they do is real. Those who have a problem with alcohol live in a different version of reality and cannot be trusted. They will not change their behaviour because you asked them to, they will not treat you with respect, nor care about boundaries. They have no empathy for you or loved ones or whether they hurt you. They only care about their own needs and how to fulfill them. The loved ones in their life are usually just a tool to be used. Their feelings are pushed down by the addiction so they do not see the damage they are causing nor will they change until they make a decision to do so.


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## delta88

After hearing that all our marriage problems were my fault for as many years as I can remember, she finally admitted she might play a part the other day. This was when my wife was feeling guilty for sneaking out.

My mother had nothing to gain by lying to me about my wife seeing me in from of the bar on Halloween either but I guess I was blinded. My wife said my mother was crazy at the time. Talk about a bad position. I was forced to decide if my wife and mother of my kids or my mother is not telling the truth.

My wife had a very tough upbringing with incest, alcoholism, and outside sexual abuse when she was a child. Promiscuity and black-out drinking set the tone for her teen years. The alcoholism is still active in her family too.

Then we met and fell in love. I think I gave her the space so she could remove herself from all of that and heal but the last 5 years I can feel some sort of strange resentment she has for me. All of the abusers seem to do no wrong and I have been turned into the enemy often battling with my wife to not use credit and to live within our means. She recently told me that I've never made her happy either, ouch!

The last separation she racked up all her credit cards, consolidated them to a lower interest card (only for one year), racked her cards up again, and financed furniture for her new place in the city. I've been helping pay it off before the no interest period ends. I ate old food out of the deep freeze and ran a tight ship. She bought the kids games and toys with regular fast food while she was away from the house.

We actually spoke for 4 hours on a Friday while she was moved out and finished our conversation with how much we loved each other. How we are going to work it out. I found out that she went to a party and left our kids with her roommate that same night. Then the next day she went to finance furniture. She wouldn't get back to me for the rest of the weekend. Apparently she went to a family members out of town and drank Saturday night too and slept over until Sunday. She didn't contact me again until Monday. No texts no nothing.

All I wanted was the kids to come home though so nothing mattered at that point. When I asked her if she was with any other guys after she moved back, she replied that if she had she wouldn't be back with me.


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## aine

delta88 said:


> After hearing that all our marriage problems were my fault for as many years as I can remember, she finally admitted she might play a part the other day. This was when my wife was feeling guilty for sneaking out.
> 
> My mother had nothing to gain by lying to me about my wife seeing me in from of the bar on Halloween either but I guess I was blinded. My wife said my mother was crazy at the time. Talk about a bad position. I was forced to decide if my wife and mother of my kids or my mother is not telling the truth.
> 
> My wife had a very tough upbringing with incest, alcoholism, and outside sexual abuse when she was a child. Promiscuity and black-out drinking set the tone for her teen years. The alcoholism is still active in her family too.
> 
> Then we met and fell in love. I think I gave her the space so she could remove herself from all of that and heal but the last 5 years I can feel some sort of strange resentment she has for me. All of the abusers seem to do no wrong and I have been turned into the enemy often battling with my wife to not use credit and to live within our means. She recently told me that I've never mad her happy either, ouch!
> 
> The last separation she racked up all her credit cards, consolidated them to a lower interest card (only for one year), racked her cards up again, and financed furniture for her new place in the city. I've been helping pay it off before the no interest period ends. I ate old food out of the deep freeze and ran a tight ship. She bought the kids games and toys with regular fast food while she was away from the house.
> 
> We actually spoke for 4 hours on a Friday while she was moved out and finished our conversation with how much we loved each other. How we are going to work it out. I found out that she went to a party and left our kids with her roommate that same night. Then the next day she went to finance furniture. She wouldn't get back to me for the rest of the weekend. Apparently she went to a family members out of town and drank Saturday night too and slept over until Sunday. She didn't contact me again until Monday. No texts no nothing.
> 
> All I wanted was the kids to come home though so nothing mattered at that point. When I asked her if she was with any other guys after she moved back, she replied that if she had she wouldn't be back with me.


Your wife has some really deep seated issues (perhaps due to abandonment/abuse etc), she may be using alcohol and nights out as a form of self medication. She needs help (you both do). You have probably become co-dependent making up excuses and covering for her where the abnormal becomes the new norm in your marriage. This is not good for you two nor the children.


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## GusPolinski

delta88 said:


> Alright, Ill give this a try here. Ive been living together with my wife for about 16 years and have been married for 12. No time-served I know. We have a 13 and a 10 year old boys, both health and happy.
> 
> The other night her cousin, girlfriend, their boy, and us spend the night over at our home. We played karaoke and had a good time until about midnight when everyone went to bed. I awoke about 5:30am to notice my son was sleeping in my bed with me so I figured I’d look and see if my wife ended up sleeping on the couch. As I walked to the living room, the front door suddenly opened and my wife walked through the door with her coat on and everything. Once it hit me what happened I asked where she was all night and then there was a sinking feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
> 
> At this point I was sort of upset as she was basically telling me she isn’t dealing with this right now. It went more like “blah blah blah, who cares” attitude towards me once she realized I knew she had been out somewhere. She went to the bathroom and fell asleep on our bathroom floor after she was done.
> 
> The next evening, well after she slept it off, I confronted her about where she was . We have been down this road before too where she takes off and gives me her version of what happened while she was gone. This time I had enough. I demanded to know where she was and what she was doing. Apparently she went to the local bar and sat by herself until closing. She basically said that it was pathetic how she sat there by herself all night and it was pointless doing it. Then I replied that you didn’t get home until after 5am so where were you from closing until you got home? She replied that she must have passed out in our car in the driveway.
> 
> Alarm bells were ringing now. We got into a heavy discussion and she broke down in tears saying she thought there was something a matter with her and that she never wanted to drink again. It caught me off guard. Her guilt was so profound I could only hug her as I didn’t like to have her feel this way. Things like “you mean so much to me” and “it was so stupid for doing that” came up. So I ask her what went on and who she talked too. She assured me she spoke to only females and there were only couples there but her story was short and vague as usual.
> 
> Well today was Sunday and we were going to go shopping. We got into the car she was out in that night and the radio was cranked on a dance station. We laughed initially but then I asked her if she danced at the bar. She told me she did but only with women. How did this go from sitting like a loser by herself to dancing with the girls? My heart just dropped and I asked her why she told me last night that nothing went on. Her reply was that I didn’t ask! When we spoke the night before, I asked her directly to tell me everything that went on and this didn’t come up. Strange I know but she went back to the “I knew you’d react this way” script and that my reaction was the problem.
> 
> My wife then went in her usual mode that I am throwing this in her face and I’m overreacting to everything as usual and that I have trust issues. This was followed the” I don’t care what you think I did” attitude. At this point I realized the pattern of her doing this same thing since we got together. Then it predictably shifts to “the stuff that goes on in your head?” comments. Today it was different though as I needed answers where the blame wasn’t centred on me. We were in the front seat of the car together and she just shut down closing her eyes and facing out the other window for the ride back home.
> 
> Now she wants our third separation and says that she shouldn’t be putting me through this. By the time she came home, she flipped again and wants to come home and I can’t stop her until we settle. We live in a small town too which has to help.
> 
> *My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me?* Every time she did this in the past I’ve never investigated what she told me and just trusted her. My gut feeling was telling me to look into things and it got worse once she gave her reaction. And she always tells me this is all in my head yet she is still taking off and I’m left to rationalize why she always does this.
> 
> On an unrelated manner, while having our coffee this morning she told me of a new job she was taking in the same government agency she works. Not really thinking about much I asked her if the job was in the same buildings and she replied no. Then I asked her where it was and she said “down there” while hesitating. I asked her curiously “down where?” based on her reaction. The pie hit the fan at this point and she went weirdly defensive saying how she has supposed to be training there this week but never told me where it was or that she knew the of the location. This is not like my wife at all as she has to know where she is going before she goes. And the fact that she mentioned that she spoke to a co-worker that told her of the position to apply for. I know my wife and that she would know without a doubt where the office the potential job was located. Stupid I know but her reaction puzzled me. Then she flipped completely and said she doesn’t tell me things like this because of how weird I get. How did a stupid detail like this cause such an emotional reaction in my wife? If it were her asking me I would care less???


Yep! She definitely sounds like a cheater, and probably a serial cheater at that.

Sorry man.


----------



## delta88

GusPolinski said:


> Yep! She definitely sounds like a cheater, and probably a serial cheater at that.
> 
> Sorry man.


The whole time we have been together she would assure me that she could never cheat on me. That she loves me so deeply that she can't even see another man in that manner. That she doesn't let other men approach her and wont allow that type of communication. Shes not that type...

Funny how she has selective truths for the smaller details and expects me to believe the she has always been faithful. If she did make a mistake I highly doubt she would come clean. I trust my wife but do not trust her, or other men for that matter, when she drinks heavily. Inhibitions and judgment are not their best while someone is heavily intoxicated.

When I got upset about her leaving the kids to sneak out drinking, she replied that she left them in my care which was perfectly acceptable. 

Not much remorse.


----------



## ReidWright

delta88 said:


> According to our account she only bought three drinks that night.


A woman looking for a good time at a bar doesn't need to buy many of her own drinks.




delta88 said:


> The whole time we have been together she would assure me that she could never cheat on me. That she loves me so deeply that she can't even see another man in that manner. That she doesn't let other men approach her and wont allow that type of communication. Shes not that type...


What else would she say? "I could TOTALLY cheat on you!!" Cheaters lie


----------



## EleGirl

Your wife has a car, right?

People who cheat very often use their car as a safe phone booth to talk about what they are doing. One of the easiest ways to find out if she is cheating is a put a VAR (voice activated recorder) in her car... in a hidden place. Like under the front search secured with adhesive back Velcro. The number of people here on TAM who have found evidence of cheating by doing this is large.

If you do it, keep the recordings to yourself. It's only meant to get you the proof one way or the other.

Are you starting the 180?


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## delta88

I'm doing my best EleGirl. 

My co-workers always tell me I'm way too hard on myself. Self-confidence is also extremely low and feel squashed. I have just slowly, over time, assumed the blame for aspects of our marriage that were less than ideal. Feedback would indicate that this type of behaviour may have carried over into other spheres.

When conflict arises with my wife, my tendency is to always withdraw or avoid and have formed introverted habits whereas she prefers to engage and destroy. 

When I think of it, I'd have to say that I feel like a shadow of who I used to be before we got together.


----------



## Thor

delta88 said:


> My wife had a very tough upbringing with incest, alcoholism, and outside sexual abuse when she was a child. Promiscuity and black-out drinking set the tone for her teen years.


She needs therapy.

How is the sex within your marriage? How about emotional intimacy?


----------



## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> I'm doing my best EleGirl.
> 
> My co-workers always tell me I'm way too hard on myself. Self-confidence is also extremely low and feel squashed. I have just slowly, over time, assumed the blame for aspects of our marriage that were less than ideal. Feedback would indicate that this type of behaviour may have carried over into other spheres.
> 
> When conflict arises with my wife, my tendency is to always withdraw or avoid and have formed introverted habits whereas she prefers to engage and destroy.
> 
> When I think of it, I'd have to say that I feel like a shadow of who I used to be before we got together.


It sounds like you are aware of areas in which you need to work on yourself and grow. That is part of taking care of yourself. It's time to do it.

When a person avoids conflict, they often express their anger and dissatisfaction through passive aggressive actions. Do you do this? Think about it.


----------



## MarriedDude

delta88 said:


> Alright, Ill give this a try here. Ive been living together with my wife for about 16 years and have been married for 12. No time-served I know. We have a 13 and a 10 year old boys, both health and happy.
> 
> The other night her cousin, girlfriend, their boy, and us spend the night over at our home. We played karaoke and had a good time until about midnight when everyone went to bed. I awoke about 5:30am to notice my son was sleeping in my bed with me so I figured I’d look and see if my wife ended up sleeping on the couch. As I walked to the living room, the front door suddenly opened and my wife walked through the door with her coat on and everything. Once it hit me what happened I asked where she was all night and then there was a sinking feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
> 
> At this point I was sort of upset as she was basically telling me she isn’t dealing with this right now. It went more like “blah blah blah, who cares” attitude towards me once she realized I knew she had been out somewhere. She went to the bathroom and fell asleep on our bathroom floor after she was done.
> 
> The next evening, well after she slept it off, I confronted her about where she was . We have been down this road before too where she takes off and gives me her version of what happened while she was gone. This time I had enough. I demanded to know where she was and what she was doing. Apparently she went to the local bar and sat by herself until closing. She basically said that it was pathetic how she sat there by herself all night and it was pointless doing it. Then I replied that you didn’t get home until after 5am so where were you from closing until you got home? She replied that she must have passed out in our car in the driveway.
> 
> Alarm bells were ringing now. We got into a heavy discussion and she broke down in tears saying she thought there was something a matter with her and that she never wanted to drink again. It caught me off guard. Her guilt was so profound I could only hug her as I didn’t like to have her feel this way. Things like “you mean so much to me” and “it was so stupid for doing that” came up. So I ask her what went on and who she talked too. She assured me she spoke to only females and there were only couples there but her story was short and vague as usual.
> 
> Well today was Sunday and we were going to go shopping. We got into the car she was out in that night and the radio was cranked on a dance station. We laughed initially but then I asked her if she danced at the bar. She told me she did but only with women. How did this go from sitting like a loser by herself to dancing with the girls? My heart just dropped and I asked her why she told me last night that nothing went on. Her reply was that I didn’t ask! When we spoke the night before, I asked her directly to tell me everything that went on and this didn’t come up. Strange I know but she went back to the “I knew you’d react this way” script and that my reaction was the problem.
> 
> My wife then went in her usual mode that I am throwing this in her face and I’m overreacting to everything as usual and that I have trust issues. This was followed the” I don’t care what you think I did” attitude. At this point I realized the pattern of her doing this same thing since we got together. Then it predictably shifts to “the stuff that goes on in your head?” comments. Today it was different though as I needed answers where the blame wasn’t centred on me. We were in the front seat of the car together and she just shut down closing her eyes and facing out the other window for the ride back home.
> 
> Now she wants our third separation and says that she shouldn’t be putting me through this. By the time she came home, she flipped again and wants to come home and I can’t stop her until we settle. We live in a small town too which has to help.
> 
> My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me? Every time she did this in the past I’ve never investigated what she told me and just trusted her. My gut feeling was telling me to look into things and it got worse once she gave her reaction. And she always tells me this is all in my head yet she is still taking off and I’m left to rationalize why she always does this.
> 
> On an unrelated manner, while having our coffee this morning she told me of a new job she was taking in the same government agency she works. Not really thinking about much I asked her if the job was in the same buildings and she replied no. Then I asked her where it was and she said “down there” while hesitating. I asked her curiously “down where?” based on her reaction. The pie hit the fan at this point and she went weirdly defensive saying how she has supposed to be training there this week but never told me where it was or that she knew the of the location. This is not like my wife at all as she has to know where she is going before she goes. And the fact that she mentioned that she spoke to a co-worker that told her of the position to apply for. I know my wife and that she would know without a doubt where the office the potential job was located. Stupid I know but her reaction puzzled me. Then she flipped completely and said she doesn’t tell me things like this because of how weird I get. How did a stupid detail like this cause such an emotional reaction in my wife? If it were her asking me I would care less???


I try to be as positive as possible......BUT.

She Lies
She openly disrespects you
Sneaks out of the house to go drinking????
Lies again
Refuses to talk to you about anything substantial
Multiple separations

Sooo...She comes from a troubled home, drunks, molesters, etc...
Booty Whooo. Life sucks for everyone at one point or another. That doesn't give her a pass to treat you like crap. 

I just can't see why you haven't released her back into the wild....

Help yourself and your kids. Get her out of your life. Insulate yourself from her rolling disaster. 

KNOW THIS: If she actually loved you....NONE of this would be happening.


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## 3Xnocharm

Even if she isnt cheating. which I do think she IS, her behaviour is 100% unacceptable! Normal, responsible people do NOT sneak out on their family and disappear all night! I cannot understand why you have accepted this and are still with her. You really need to divorce this woman, even if she isnt cheating, because she is irresponsible and has zero respect for you and your children.

Oh, and having already been separated TWICE?? Yeah, strike three, she's out!


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## ReidWright

how long were each of the separations? what was the timing? and who decided to get back together?

she's probably trying out a new boyfriend each time, then when it falls apart she wants to patch it up with you

you need to go into full press investigation mode


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## GusPolinski

delta88 said:


> The whole time we have been together she would assure me that she could never cheat on me. That she loves me so deeply that she can't even see another man in that manner. That she doesn't let other men approach her and wont allow that type of communication. Shes not that type...
> 
> Funny how she has selective truths for the smaller details and expects me to believe the she has always been faithful. If she did make a mistake I highly doubt she would come clean. I trust my wife but do not trust her, or other men for that matter, when she drinks heavily. Inhibitions and judgment are not their best while someone is heavily intoxicated.
> 
> When I got upset about her leaving the kids to sneak out drinking, she replied that she left them in my care which was perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Not much remorse.


You poor, naive fool.


----------



## Thor

GusPolinski said:


> You poor, naive fool.


Nice Guy + Wife who was sexually abused and had alcoholic parents = Perfect Storm.

I'd bet money she has had a string of ONS at bars. OP is describing a text book scenario. Sorry to see this, nothing is going to get better until they both get IC. Even then things will never be normal or good with them together.


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## tom67

Thor said:


> Nice Guy + Wife who was sexually abused and had alcoholic parents = Perfect Storm.
> 
> I'd bet money she has had a string of ONS at bars. OP is describing a text book scenario. Sorry to see this, nothing is going to get better until they both get IC. Even then things will never be normal or good with them together.


Yep without therapy it's only going to get worse.
Go get tested for STDs as soon as you can.


----------



## dental

Very good match, alas not a very productive one: the co-dependent and the borderline.


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## delta88

Emotional intimacy could probably use a tonne of work.

EleGirl, I have looked into the passive-aggressive idea and it fits me to a tee. The co-dependency is another winner but, after some reflection, believe this was a carry-over from my relationship with my mother. Either way it has made for a perfect mess with a lot of confusion.

This is all scary stuff and new territory for me.


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## NotLikeYou

delta88 said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> I hope you don't mind me asking why the link to 180 is under surviving an affair and is this something i should consider?


delta88, you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

Here are 3 simple things you can do that will make you a much sharper tool. You won't actually do any of them, which is why you'll continue to be a tool, and why your wife will continue to have sex with other people, no matter how tightly you screw your eyes shut and pretend otherwise.

1) Get some counseling to fix your crushingly low self esteem. Ideally, you will get to a point where you will think that you deserve to be treated (much) better by the person that you love, than you currently are.

2) Re-establish your relationship with your mother. It takes a truly pathetic man to choose his wife over his Mother under the circumstances you describe. But she's your Mom, and she loves you, so she will probably take you back and forgive you for treating HER so shabbily. 

This is really important, because your Mother will want the best for you, where your wife does not. The fact that you are too stupid to know what most 6 year olds understand simply reinforces how important it is that you get your Mom back in your life.

3) Divorce your wife. She likes to have sex with other men. She had a horrific childhood and is determined not to seek help to overcome those demons. Instead, she is sharing them with you. She does not make you a better man. You do not make her a better woman.



delta, I'm going to share a little secret with you, here. You may want to sit down before you read the next couple of sentences.



If your wife loved you, she wouldn't sneak out to bars and come home hours after closing time, smelling of beer and other men.

If YOU loved yourself, you would take a cold clear eyed look at your marriage, and file for divorce, because your wife quite obviously does not love you.

Fortunately for your wife, she chose well- she married a weak man that will let her do what she wants and not hold her accountable.

You're an active participant in whats going on, so sympathy would be misplaced. Will you settle for the pity of an anonymous internet poster?


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## delta88

Here is an update:

I confronted her to get counselling for the abuse she endured while she was growing up. She admitted that she needs to talk to someone but fears that I will learn of her experiences. The concern is that the MC would reveal these terrible events in her life and I will bear witness. 

Also, after the last bar episode her intention is to quit drinking forever and says all she wants is to be married to me. My gut feeling is dinging like a fire alarm right about now. Her story has shifted a few times and just can't see her driving home at the latest, say 2:30am and sleeping in the driveway until I caught her walking in the door after 5am. Taking a three hour power nap in the driveway doesn't seem feasible. Maybe if I saw her sleeping in the vehicle I could believe her story. 

Then the explanation was that the person she told me she drank with really wasn't there for long. Funny thing is this is the name she uttered when she stumbled through the door when I was asking where she was. Now the person was only there for a short time and the ladies she was dancing with were all strangers? 

She is acting very nice too.


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## delta88

Alright NotLikeYou, Your tone us completely condescending yet to the point and necessary. If you were beside me right now I'd charlie horse ya then buy a round of beers. I'm mad at myself for letting this  all happen.

I'd really really like to catch her with some proof


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## delta88

If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again. No option for MC and reconcile. This would prove our relationship was all deception from the beginning and she is a succubus.


----------



## delta88

Her regular requests to move far away have been fairly consistent as well.

Thank you all for taking the time to read and post on my thread. If there were somewhere else I could turn you would have never heard my story.

Delta


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## aine

delta88 said:


> Here is an update:
> 
> I confronted her to get counselling for the abuse she endured while she was growing up. She admitted that she needs to talk to someone but fears that I will learn of her experiences. The concern is that the MC would reveal these terrible events in her life and I will bear witness.
> 
> Also, after the last bar episode her intention is to quit drinking forever and says all she wants is to be married to me. My gut feeling is dinging like a fire alarm right about now. Her story has shifted a few times and just can't see her driving home at the latest, say 2:30am and sleeping in the driveway until I caught her walking in the door after 5am. Taking a three hour power nap in the driveway doesn't seem feasible. Maybe if I saw her sleeping in the vehicle I could believe her story.
> 
> Then the explanation was that the person she told me she drank with really wasn't there for long. Funny thing is this is the name she uttered when she stumbled through the door when I was asking where she was. Now the person was only there for a short time and the ladies she was dancing with were all strangers?
> 
> She is acting very nice too.


She will tell you whatever you want to hear to placate you and then when things settle repeat the whole scenario, same **** a different day! You know you have caught her in many lies already you just don't want to face it. Take the actions some people have mentioned and stop playing according to her rules. Good luck


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## delta88

Aine,
My wife believes that we are all good again. No point in asking her for answers to her behaviour obviously. From here on out I want to get the goods that will set me free. I am looking online for a VAR as we speak. 

Any other ideas how to catch a woman of easy virtue?


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## Lostinthought61

delta, if you can't find proof about whether she cheated or not, but your gut said something happen, and she is adamant that she never cheated, might i suggest the following:
write up a statement of declaration, in which she signs her name to that she has never cheated during your marriage (make sure you define cheating), and if you do find out she did cheat she will be willing to give up (you name it)...once both of you sign it (you need to sign as well) have it notarized. If she truly is guilt free, she will sign it and if she says no, it might be that she will think you have something on her....at this point what do you have to lose.


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## Clay2013

Tell her you found a person that can do a polygraph and tell her she needs to do it if she wants to stay married. Of course this is more about her reaction than you actually doing it. If she says she wont do it then you already know your answer. You don't really need to have concrete proof. 

I am not sure why your really investing more time. You already know she did something while she was out. You also know she is hiding other things she has done that she does not want you to know about. What more do you really need from that. 

I guess in my mind when you married you shouldn't have any secrets. 

I personally would start working on 180 and planning my departure. 

Clay


----------



## delta88

Thanks for the great idea Xenote. You've got me thinking that maybe I will drop this on her but have a VAR in her car and maybe teensafe her cell first. 

You need either extended separation, extramarital affair, or mental abuse for a divorce in our jurisdiction. The terrible thing is our kids have done nothing to deserve being forced into this whole equation. 

Something deep in my heart still wants to believe that she is the woman that I've known for all these years. And that she lives a moral life. 

Being in this position sucks as doing the 180 isn't helping my passive-aggressive situation much either.


----------



## aine

delta88 said:


> Aine,
> My wife believes that we are all good again. No point in asking her for answers to her behaviour obviously. From here on out I want to get the goods that will set me free. I am looking online for a VAR as we speak.
> 
> Any other ideas how to catch a woman of easy virtue?


Ways to catch her

1. VAR
2. Listen carefully to what she says, record any dates, names etc (hell even secretly tape conversations). Cheaters will eventually screw up their carefully laid out lies and contradict themselves
3. Check her purse, phone, pockets (even bin for throwaway receipts)
4 Your gut is usually a good indicator that things are not what she says they are
5 A risky one, but call her bluff


----------



## delta88

Here is some background on the first two separations, decided by her obviously:

Last two weeks of the 2014 school year, she left with the kids to stay with her family. For the 15-20 days they were gone I was devastated. Can't say it surprised me though as she had been dry-running for year; starting fights with me so she could have a excuse for taking the kids and leaving for the weekend. Her contact with me during this "separation"period was seldom-to-none. My understanding of the situation was that she felt this was all my fault but needed to have some space to sort through her position on the matter. That somehow being apart would somehow magically fix our problems.

As mentioned in a earlier post, the catalyst for this episode was her going to the bar and ignoring me when I went to bring her home. Hoping the meeting would go well, I stopped at the bank to take out $40 to buy a round of drinks when I met her friends figuring the meeting could go one of two ways. Somehow I knew that the odds were stacked against me and we both blew up. 

Anyhow, The cat came back until about two weeks into the boys summer break where I was informed that she felt we are turning into friends and how she would rather be apart from me that have us relegated to friend status. I suggested marriage counselling and was told that if our love was really strong, we can fix this on our own. Myself, I believed it may be a communication issue and wanted to be sure i was able to hear what she didn't know she was telling me. Weird I know.

Nope, she would have none of that and informed me she was moving in with her cousin and her brothers new wife. BIL is in prison for murder and he and his 18 yo wife had a baby out of conjugal visits. How she had already committed to renting a house with them so there was no turning back. Both have no credit and would be unable to rent a house without my wife's signature. 

At this point, work was hell for me and was being a puss puss about getting my family back. My willingness to please was in overdrive and brought over the kids beds so they didn't have to sleep on air mattresses. Now she wanted me to start dating her again so we could get back to how we were when I courted her. For me to pick her up and take her on dates to show me that we were capable of loving each-other again. So I would stop by their new house in the city and have coffee with her. The first two meetings she had her 18yo SIL, mother, and female cousins sitting there the whole time. And I mean sitting at the same table as us. Talk about feeling like being the only one who didn't know that something was going on.

It ended up that she had become the parent, cooking and clean for her SIL, cousin and his three kids and what she envisioned didn't come to be. Again she decided to move back home with the kids just in time for the new school year.


----------



## delta88

Back to the latest episode of her sneaking out to the bar and not coming home until 5:30am.

We began to talk through some of the issues and informed her that we both need some individual counseling to get on top of some of the issues we’re having. She told me that men had done horrible things to her when she was young and has zero trust for any man. Everything was genuine from my stand-point too. Hoping that this was a glimmer of hope that she might have inadvertently transferred this blame for the abuse she endured, on to me by mistake was possible I’d thought. 

She showered and informed she’d be clean for sex later. Sex, Yay! So I sat down and read your posts (thank you all) causing a strong feeling to come over me saying “what if she did cheat”. Still sitting on the couch, the Mrs. came out to kiss me and I just looked at her seeing her in a completely new light. Like there was nothing behind the kiss and I could actually tell she was putting on an act; sort of how she acts when she talks to me on her work phone. 

Her decision at first was that she wanted to stop drinking for good and I thought it couldn’t hurt so agreed. It then evolved slowly to her suggestion of me quitting drinking as well. That we should both never consume alcohol again. I agreed thinking I’d be supportive but as time went on the blame was shifting to me more and more. How was I was being handed down punishment for her taking off in the middle of the night when I was not a participant? 

One of my hobbies is making my own wine and she knows I have a nice collection that I've been aging. And the fact of I enjoy the craft of making my own red wines. After, I’d thought about and noticed how she is slowly shifting half the blame in her leaving and driving drunk Nothing was said by me at this point but could tell she was chipping away making it seem like indirectly everything was my fault as usual. I had to keep telling her she was the one who took off and take the “we” out of taking some form of responsibility. Whatever she does wrong it always goes back to me acting a certain way or doing something that gave her no choice.

Not this time though. She can sweep it under the rug and shift-blame all she wants. The part that really hurt is when she is gaslighting me and thinks I’m too stupid to tell but the hurt is quickly fading let me tell you.

Fast forward to yesterday while we were at Costco. From when I turned into the parking lot she openly criticized every decision I made. From where I parked to what isle I went down. She wouldn’t stop. It got louder and more frequent as the shopping continued. Then at one point she just left me standing in front of the cooler and went on her way. Not trying to make a big deal of the situation, I caught up and she resumed her complaining offering no solutions only criticisms for something I had already done. I had enough and had to tell her to shut her mouth in front of our youngest and the people at the checkout. My boy was there and the store was busy as hell and didn’t want to do it but reached my breaking point.

She settled down and I went to load the flooring into the truck while she took the groceries and bought her and my boy drinks from the restaurant. Waiting in the truck my frustration level was through the roof. She comes strolling up like nothing happened telling me to give her a hand loading. I refused. My take was that my two boys could help but I wasn’t going to go out of my way to make anything easy for her. No way! It was funny watching her load them actually but it was needed to get her attention. 

Off to the trampoline park. We pull up and the parking lot is full so I head for the front door to drop everyone off. Nothing was said. To my surprise she just exits the truck not asking if I wanted to come in or “see you inside”. It felt like she was telling me in her actions that I was a *****. Two minutes after I park she comes back with the kids saying the place was too busy. No big deal right? That’s what I figured, but wait a second; she’s acting as if nothing happened. WTF? I told her that her BS had to stop and that if she didn’t have anything nice to say to me to keep it to yourself. She freaked out saying she can and will say and do as she pleases and to **ck-*ff. My reply is that’s fine as long as it doesn’t involve me. 

Insert long period of silence here…

Off to the electronics store we go so my boys could get their games. Again they just walked out leaving me sit in the truck. I guess I could have caught up like in Costco but just sat back this time. Then she texts me saying how crappy I always make her feel and if I’d “let it go” before reaching this point none of this would be happening. “Come and be with your family”My reply to her was “I guess if I just took your crap life would be good”. She then admitted that she might have been a little impatient in Costco but offered no apology and again it was my reaction causing all the problems. Complete down-play of her destructive behavior. She has never been able to admit her part in a conflict and her rational seems off to say the least. How I never noticed before is beyond me.

Oh, I should mention that she wants us to sell our house to move back to the city. Up to now I was almost willing too. The whole deal would cost us another $250,000 mortgage and eat all our equity that we built in our existing home. She wanted us to sell to rent in the city before too but I refused telling her that we have kids to leave something too when we check out. My take was we should plan to keep the existing house to rent and buy another house. That way we are building equity not accumulating debt. Rent is 100% interest! She favours the fast plan obviously.


----------



## delta88

A previous post mentioned the co-dependent and the borderline. Would someone care to elaborate on this please?

Her callous attitude toward me and the fact her guilt only shows when her bad behaviour is exposed to our kids tells me she needs to be tossed back. 

As screwed up as this sounds, I want a divorce but my only concern is that she is going to turn the divorce into a mutual decision. For my own health and well being, this cannot be allowed to happen. I want to end this on my own terms. 

Can I send her a registered letter informing her of my intent to divorce? Just walking into the other room telling her I want a divorce seems very unofficial.


----------



## Thor

Delta88, what you describe is textbook abuse victim. When sexual abuse happens at an early age it completely changes how the child sees the world.

Yes, she does in her mind equate you with her abuser in some way. As boyfriend you were just some guy. She could be sexual with you without problems. In fact, she learned that men give her attention when sex or sexuality or nudity are involved. This is one of the twisted lessons she learns at a young age with the abuse. So as a teen and older she learns that giving sex results in her being given positive attention and approval. It may even give her status amongst other females, especially as a teen.

But then when you get married you jump the fence from being just a boyfriend to being an adult male relative. If one of her abusers was a relative, you now are in that category. Even if not, you became a responsible adult male, so you are no longer the carefree boyfriend.

Emotionally and subconsciously you are now in the class of dangerous abusing males. It is possible (likely?) you have done or said things which triggered her, even without you having any idea. Normal things for you can be triggers for her. My wife triggers on a specific food item and a particular song.

Borderline or other personality disorders are quite possible with the abuse victim, but the typical abuse psychology presents with behaviors similar though not as intense. You may read the list of BPD or narcissist behaviors and see some similarities with your wife, yet they don't quite seem like total matches.

It really doesn't matter what diagnosis might be applied. You aren't a shrink, so you are not qualified to diagnose. More importantly, you are not qualified to be her therapist either! It is up to her to seek treatment. You might nudge her towards it, but probably it won't be received well by her if you mention the abuse or any personality disorder. An indirect approach such as marriage counseling might be more productive.


----------



## Thor

delta88 said:


> A previous post mentioned the co-dependent and the borderline. Would someone care to elaborate on this please?
> 
> Her callous attitude toward me and the fact her guilt only shows when her bad behaviour is exposed to our kids tells me she needs to be tossed back.
> 
> As screwed up as this sounds, I want a divorce but my only concern is that she is going to turn the divorce into a mutual decision. For my own health and well being, this cannot be allowed to happen. I want to end this on my own terms.


Read the book CoDependent No More. Basically a Co-dependent is someone who is locked into a relationship with someone with some form of dependency or personality disorder. A simple example is the wife who stays with her alcoholic husband because she needs to be a rescuer. She can't apply tough love to him because it would end her role as rescuer, so she keeps things going along dysfunctionally.

Getting out of the marriage might be very good for your kids.

I would expect a negative reaction from her rather than agreeing to the divorce. Part of the abuse victim psychology is a need for approval, and a fear of rejection. You will reject her by asking for a divorce, and this may hit her very deepest fears.


----------



## YupItsMe

I am no expert. I read more than anyone else I know but that is not substitute for a professional opinion. That being said it appears to me you are wrestling with some issues that are far beyond problems that might be solvable with self-help. I am a huge fan of self-help but I strongly believe the issues in your situation are not candidates for self-help solutions. 

Your first problem is you do not appear to be able to make the moves that must be made to stop the ongoing damage to you and your children. The first is to stop enabling your wife, separate your finances and stop considering any excuses for your wife's behavior. 

It appears to me that your wife is seriously mentally ill, very emotionally unstable, an obvious alcoholic that is a danger to herself and others including you and your children and she has no business being a mom or a wife under her broken mental condition. 

It appears very clear to me that you are codependent and passive. 

There is lots of confusion on this site about being passive versus passive-aggressive I think because the terms are so similar they get either confused or the terms are simply used in sloppy unhelpful fashion. Perhaps I am way off base. I have not researched it yet. 

In my view, passive-aggressive has an anger component. Passive simply has a tolerance component. I do not think being too passive is good either but it does offer some inner peace at appropriate levels that some could use to live a more satisfying life. 

IMHO


----------



## YupItsMe

Another issue is your children may or may not be witnessing her behavior. 

If they are, it is not good for them or for their relationship with her.

There are some members of the public that jump the gun on witnessing antics like your wife's and endangering the welfare of a child ends up getting you into a government intervention and an investigation or her antics. 

They will talk to your kids independently. IF they say the wrong thing, you can lose your kids to foster care. IF you are lucky, a relative can foster them. If not you run the risk of a foster parent in my home town that was a pastor that just went to prison for molesting a 6 year old. He has had 30 foster kids and adopted 2 prior. 

With kids involved, this is more than just an alcoholic wife and codependent enabler that are screwing up their own lives. At this point you have an unfortunate chance to mess up your kids lives also. 

With all due respect, it is time to get serious and think beyond the immature antics of your wife because there are consequences that go way beyond her being a screw up. 

My sole intent is to offer some perspective that your issues are much ore serious than you seem to grasp hoping it will motivate you to play out the possibilities to the end. It's way past time to grow a pair.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

EleGirl said:


> It's unclear from my vantage point if her going out like this is related to a binge alcohol issue, or if her going out is about being alone and/or with 'the girls' or if it's alcohol and men.


Really? It’s unclear? It’s plain as day to me. 

OP, let me cyber introduce you to a couple of people. The first one is quick and easy. This statement from you in this thread made me think of him:



delta88 said:


> Not sure she would have ever told me if I didn't catch her walking in the door either. It's like I don't even know who she is anymore as weird as it is to say


There is a long time poster on this site. His wife checked out of the marriage. Like yours. He is a heavy sleeper. They would go to bed together and she would wait until he was asleep. She would then get out of bed, go out to local bars, meet men for sex and be back in bed before he woke up. Some ONS’s, some she keep around for repeat sex. Some…well, you get the drift. I’m pretty sure this guy’s wife would not have told him if he didn’t “catch her walking in the door”, or leaving her phone unguarded, or…whatever it was.

The second is a close friend of mine. He is divorced 5 years or so. Let me describe his ex-wife to you:



delta88 said:


> (His) wife had a very tough upbringing with incest, alcoholism, and outside sexual abuse when she was a child. Promiscuity and black-out drinking set the tone for her teen years


Not a word-for-word quote on how I would describe her, but you get the drift.

His wife did not have to sneak out to go to bars. She would tell him she was “going out”. He didn’t question her. She deserved a night out every now and then, right? Most times by herself, a good bit with a lone friend (more on that in a second), very rarely with a large group. They did not have the kind of money that would allow her to run up $100 a week in bar tabs. He wouldn’t allow it. It was never spoken, but it had to be obvious to HIM even where her drinks came from. 

Married 20 years. Even if it was just twice a month (I’m sure it was more that that) that’s 240 times out to party with strange men. The one that would NEVER hear the stories about what went on when she was out was my friend, her husband. The second most likely candidate to never hear stories of her out partying is her husband’s best friend. Me. 

Why do I care so much about a wayward wife that isn’t mine? Why do I think I’m an expert? Because in all of the years we lived next door, the husband became a very close friend of mine. So guess who became close friends with his (very) toxic wife? That’s right. MY wife. There was one summer in particular. In hindsight, it was right around the time my wife checked out of our marriage (unbeknownst to me). There were about 10 Saturday nights where she went “out dancing with Rebecca” and come home at 2:30 AM. No word of where she went. No word of what she did or who she did it with. Worst summer of my life. But I was a secure husband. She popped out 2 kids for me. How could I say anything? I was NOT one of those controlling husbands.

That was a long time ago. A few years I was triggered about that summer. It brought me to these boards. It got me hearing stories differently. It has me convinced that my friend’s wife has partied with hundreds of strange men my friend will never know about. Knowing his ex’s history and lifestyle, there is no way a logical person can presume there wasn’t a lot of inappropriate activity in that time. And my wife was her wingwoman for at least 10 of those nights. Lucky for me, she screwed up and the “we’re just out dancing in our man-free bubble” facade crumbled so it stopped. She is still checked out to this day, but at least those horrible Saturday nights stopped taking years off of my life.

So why am I bothering you with this story? Because of this:



delta88 said:


> If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again. No option for MC and reconcile. This would prove our relationship was all deception from the beginning and she is a succubus.


I’ll have to look up “succubus” later, but I think I get the drift. I have no idea what my friend knows, but I can guarantee it isn’t even close to the truth. I know exactly what I know, and it is NOTHING from my wife’s part in all of this. And now it’s too late. I’m bringing my ignorance to my grave. Are you ready for that? Her sneaking out and coming home at 5:30 AM with lies and an unrealistic story? And you’ll never know.



delta88 said:


> Any other ideas how to catch a woman of easy virtue?


Oh how I wish. I wish, I wish, I WISH I had spied at that time. There were no forums like this so I’d never heard of VAR’s or other spying techniques. And I never went out to check up on her at the bars. Never got a friend who didn’t know her go out and see what she was up to. Never hired a PI. And now I’ll never know. All I get is “I don’t even remember”. My marriage is over we are still married and living together), so it doesn’t consume me any more. 

Spy on her. Let on like this blew over and doesn’t bother you any more. Let her get comfortable. Let her go out with the gals again. They spy. See what she is up to. You have to do this. PI if you can afford it. She’s a party girl. Sex with strange men is easy for her. And she likes it (used to anyhow). And she regularly hangs out in places where it is the norm.


----------



## LongWalk

This Life: The doorbell rang, and a stepdad had to face secrets and tragedy - The Washington Post

Your reminds me of this woman.

Salvaging a life with her requires therapy. AA. 

It would be a surprize if she hasn't cheated. However, she may love you. The problem is she does not love herself.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> According to our account she only bought three drinks that night.


That's because she was kissing up to all the men at the bar - who were buying all the OTHER drinks for her, hoping to get her drunk enough so they could take her home and screw her.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> Something deep in my heart still wants to believe that she is the woman that I've known for all these years. And that she lives a moral life.


Huh?

A moral woman who goes drinking without you and stays out til 5am?

Where do you get morals in that?

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? It's a must for your situation.
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

A brief recap of the book: the reason she criticizes you, the reason she sleeps around on you, the reason she abandons you to go bar-hopping, is because SHE HAS NO RESPECT FOR YOU. Reading NMMNG will teach you how to become a real man who she WILL respect.


----------



## the guy

It sounds like your wife and my wife are cut from the same cloth...sorry man this doesn't end well.

Has your wife used this excuse yet..." a friend was drunk so I went to pick them up in the middle of the night and we talk for a while"?

My favorite excuse is " I couldN'T sleep so I went out".....



The worst feeling in the world is walking up in the middle of the night to find your wife gone and waking up the next morning sleeping next to her and when you ask how she slept she tells you "like log" and pretendS she was home the whole night and you know dam well she took off.

In the end my old lady was doing this 2-3 times a week.......

You will find your breaking point, you will do the investigation that will show you and your wife how far gone she really is. I did and believe me when they start doing this crap, and no matter how dangerous it is to them (nothING good happen after midnight) they won't see it until you throw the proof into there face that they are in fact cheating.


best advise here....GET THAT VAR PLANTED IN HER CAR ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!

Your wife most likely is putting her self in a position were its better to give up sex rather then having it taken by force...especially when she is to drunk to..#1 know better then to get in to a strange guys car. #2 to realize some guy doesn't have room mates that are having an after party but going to some guys house were no body is home and miles away from her own car.


If your wife ever comes clean you will not like what you hear....I sure didn't when my old lady came clean!


----------



## Thor

Get a semen detection kit, and test her panties when she comes home after one of those all nighters.


----------



## maritalloneliness

delta88 said:


> Alright, Ill give this a try here. Ive been living together with my wife for about 16 years and have been married for 12. No time-served I know. We have a 13 and a 10 year old boys, both health and happy.
> 
> The other night her cousin, girlfriend, their boy, and us spend the night over at our home. We played karaoke and had a good time until about midnight when everyone went to bed. I awoke about 5:30am to notice my son was sleeping in my bed with me so I figured I’d look and see if my wife ended up sleeping on the couch. As I walked to the living room, the front door suddenly opened and my wife walked through the door with her coat on and everything. Once it hit me what happened I asked where she was all night and then there was a sinking feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
> 
> At this point I was sort of upset as she was basically telling me she isn’t dealing with this right now. It went more like “blah blah blah, who cares” attitude towards me once she realized I knew she had been out somewhere. She went to the bathroom and fell asleep on our bathroom floor after she was done.
> 
> The next evening, well after she slept it off, I confronted her about where she was . We have been down this road before too where she takes off and gives me her version of what happened while she was gone. This time I had enough. I demanded to know where she was and what she was doing. Apparently she went to the local bar and sat by herself until closing. She basically said that it was pathetic how she sat there by herself all night and it was pointless doing it. Then I replied that you didn’t get home until after 5am so where were you from closing until you got home? She replied that she must have passed out in our car in the driveway.
> 
> Alarm bells were ringing now. We got into a heavy discussion and she broke down in tears saying she thought there was something a matter with her and that she never wanted to drink again. It caught me off guard. Her guilt was so profound I could only hug her as I didn’t like to have her feel this way. Things like “you mean so much to me” and “it was so stupid for doing that” came up. So I ask her what went on and who she talked too. She assured me she spoke to only females and there were only couples there but her story was short and vague as usual.
> 
> Well today was Sunday and we were going to go shopping. We got into the car she was out in that night and the radio was cranked on a dance station. We laughed initially but then I asked her if she danced at the bar. She told me she did but only with women. How did this go from sitting like a loser by herself to dancing with the girls? My heart just dropped and I asked her why she told me last night that nothing went on. Her reply was that I didn’t ask! When we spoke the night before, I asked her directly to tell me everything that went on and this didn’t come up. Strange I know but she went back to the “I knew you’d react this way” script and that my reaction was the problem.
> 
> My wife then went in her usual mode that I am throwing this in her face and I’m overreacting to everything as usual and that I have trust issues. This was followed the” I don’t care what you think I did” attitude. At this point I realized the pattern of her doing this same thing since we got together. Then it predictably shifts to “the stuff that goes on in your head?” comments. Today it was different though as I needed answers where the blame wasn’t centred on me. We were in the front seat of the car together and she just shut down closing her eyes and facing out the other window for the ride back home.
> 
> Now she wants our third separation and says that she shouldn’t be putting me through this. By the time she came home, she flipped again and wants to come home and I can’t stop her until we settle. We live in a small town too which has to help.
> 
> My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me? Every time she did this in the past I’ve never investigated what she told me and just trusted her. My gut feeling was telling me to look into things and it got worse once she gave her reaction. And she always tells me this is all in my head yet she is still taking off and I’m left to rationalize why she always does this.
> 
> On an unrelated manner, while having our coffee this morning she told me of a new job she was taking in the same government agency she works. Not really thinking about much I asked her if the job was in the same buildings and she replied no. Then I asked her where it was and she said “down there” while hesitating. I asked her curiously “down where?” based on her reaction. The pie hit the fan at this point and she went weirdly defensive saying how she has supposed to be training there this week but never told me where it was or that she knew the of the location. This is not like my wife at all as she has to know where she is going before she goes. And the fact that she mentioned that she spoke to a co-worker that told her of the position to apply for. I know my wife and that she would know without a doubt where the office the potential job was located. Stupid I know but her reaction puzzled me. Then she flipped completely and said she doesn’t tell me things like this because of how weird I get. How did a stupid detail like this cause such an emotional reaction in my wife? If it were her asking me I would care less???


Listen to you intuition. If you feel something is going on, it probably is. I think our WS don't think how much we pay attention to their behavior changes, even if it's very minor. In my case, all thr bells were ringing and I chose to ignore it when I saw how my WS was flirting with the OW who happens to be my sister in law. When i confronted him on their flirting and the fact she was toughing his thighs, he made me feel guilty that i would even suggest that he could be doing something with my brother's wife. You know of the old saying- THOU PROTESTED TOO MUCH.


----------



## the guy

maritalloneliness said:


> Listen to you intuition. If you feel something is going on, it probably is. I think our WS don't think how much we pay attention to their behavior changes, even if it's very minor. In my case, all thr bells were ringing and I chose to ignore it when I saw how my WS was flirting with the OW who happens to be my sister in law. When i confronted him on their flirting and the fact she was toughing his thighs, he made me feel guilty that i would even suggest that he could be doing something with my brother's wife. You know of the old saying- THOU PROTESTED TOO MUCH.


It's amazing how we (betrayed spouse's) can't believe the unbelievable when it comes to our spouses phucking someone else!

But when reality does set in (it always does at some point) it so dam painful.


----------



## delta88

Thank you for your comments and experience with this type of thing. As such I wanted to update you on recent events.

Her last bar adventure has been hard to get get over and just isn't sitting right with me. After discussing that her going to the bar alone still bothers me she explained that it was stupid for her to go but then followed with a comment that she mentioned to me that she was interested in going to bars before but I never followed up. Basically it was suggested that it was my fault for her going. No way I was letting this happen either so I told her no way. Then her position was like it was a contributing factor.

I looked her in the eye and sternly asked her what was at the bar that wasn't at home? What was she looking for that night. All I got was I wanted to be around other people.

At this point we got into a discussion about everything and we went back to the same crap she always says. That she feels trapped and doesn't know if she wants to be married anymore. This is followed by the usual dose of all our problems being my fault and once I can correct all my shortcomings, we can unite and magically become a happy couple. That our marriage will be perfect if I can only fix myself. I refused to let her say all our problems were caused by me and told her it takes two to tango. 

Then I brought up the kids saying they like it out here and have established themselves in the community. That I want 50/50 custody too. She refused saying she is all the kids need and my contribution is not necessary or needed. Once again I put my foot down and told her if she believes children are better off without a father she is not thinking clearly. No more allowing her to live in her bubble of ignorance at my expense. Man this feels good.

Then when I brought up her history about her taking off, she just downplayed it suggesting if I were normal it wouldn't ever be a problem. Again I told her she was the one taking off not me. Apparently she believes our whole history together has been miserable and that I've never made her happy. blah blah blah.

Now she wants to sell the house, burn through all our equity and use it for a down-payment and buy a house in the city. She wanted to sell our home last time to pay off all our debt and go rent in the city. Too me this seems illogical and is a bad move for our family. Now she is bringing it up almost daily making comments like she cant wait to move to the city. And that fact she all of the sudden hates the town we live in now.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> Thank you for your comments and experience with this type of thing. As such I wanted to update you on recent events.
> 
> Her last bar adventure has been hard to get get over and just isn't sitting right with me. After discussing that her going to the bar alone still bothers me she explained that it was stupid for her to go but then followed with a comment that she mentioned to me that she was interested in going to bars before but I never followed up. Basically it was suggested that it was my fault for her going. No way I was letting this happen either so I told her no way. Then her position was like it was a contributing factor.
> 
> I looked her in the eye and sternly asked her what was at the bar that wasn't at home? What was she looking for that night. All I got was I wanted to be around other people.
> 
> At this point we got into a discussion about everything and we went back to the same crap she always says. That she feels trapped and doesn't know if she wants to be married anymore. This is followed by the usual dose of all our problems being my fault and once I can correct all my shortcomings, we can unite and magically become a happy couple. That our marriage will be perfect if I can only fix myself. I refused to let her say all our problems were caused by me and told her it takes two to tango.
> 
> Then I brought up the kids saying they like it out here and have established themselves in the community. That I want 50/50 custody too. She refused saying she is all the kids need and my contribution is not necessary or needed. Once again I put my foot down and told her if she believes children are better off without a father she is not thinking clearly. No more allowing her to live in her bubble of ignorance at my expense. Man this feels good.
> 
> Then when I brought up her history about her taking off, she just downplayed it suggesting if I were normal it wouldn't ever be a problem. Again I told her she was the one taking off not me. Apparently she believes our whole history together has been miserable and that I've never made her happy. blah blah blah.
> 
> Now she wants to sell the house, burn through all our equity and use it for a down-payment and buy a house in the city. She wanted to sell our home last time to pay off all our debt and go rent in the city. Too me this seems illogical and is a bad move for our family. Now she is bringing it up almost daily making comments like she cant wait to move to the city. And that fact she all of the sudden hates the town we live in now.


I hope you are not giving any consideration to buying another house with this woman. The only move you should be making is to divorce her. She is TELLING you that she doesnt want to be married, both by her words and her actions, so you need to listen to what you are being told. This is no way to live.


----------



## delta88

I love this woman and want nothing more than to believe in her. No way should I ever have been put in this situation either.

Had I done the same thing and sneak out to a bar I would have explained the whole nights events and even offered for us to go to talk to the bartender to confirm her story. My wife could have ended my agony buy giving me the information needed to set my mind at ease but she didn't.

How can she claim to love me but act in a hurtful manner and blame me for her action in the end? It always comes back to it being my fault yet i know I can only control myself.

My gut is telling me she wants to liquidate our assets and pay off her debts so she can split more easily. Both of us should be happy we are together and working through our issues no matter where we live. Her take is she will not be happy until we sell and move and then the happiness will come.

She has no value for my ideas either. Yesterday she came home from walmart with nothing but pudding, ice cream, chips, and whatever crap she could buy. This was after I have continually mentioned that the kids don't need so much low nutritional high calorie foods. There is no problem with moving our kids back to the high crime city either, the reason we moved in the first place.


----------



## delta88

My position is that I will refuse to sell which I already know will spark another separation and her usual removal of my kids from my life as punishment. This time I will not go away quietly and will want to know where my kids are and who they are in contact with 24/7.

Your posts on my wife seeing me as a villain are bang on. Strange how it went unnoticed for this long on my part. Her family, who is responsible for her abuse has already told her they don't care about what she went through in her past. To deal with it. No apologies or recognition so she could move on with her life. So she moved on by not seeing any wrong doing these people had done to her while she was growing up and actually looking up to her abusers. Now I have become the anti-Christ in my wife's eyes.

Her family suffers from chronic alcohol abuse that goes back generations.

Anyhow, she mentioned she loves me more than anything but love isn't everything. What do you say to that one...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

She is right, love isnt everything. Love isnt enough, unfortunately. Someone who loves you will not do the things to you that your wife has been doing. Her words are empty.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> My position is that I will refuse to sell which I already know will spark another separation and her usual removal of my kids from my life as punishment.


delta, if you would go to a lawyer, you'd have protection against her taking the kids anywhere. Spend the $300 and get a lawyer to protect you and the kids.

And what she wants from you is STRENGTH. She wants you to lead the family. Even if she doesn't know it. Have you read NMMNG yet?


----------



## tom67

Her family suffers from chronic alcohol abuse that goes back generations.

So she grew up in a dysfunctional home that explains a lot.
She has to want help ask her once if she wants some ic if she says no you have little choice but to move on and protect your kids.
She is probably behaving just like her parents.


----------



## SamuraiJack

> “Anyhow, she mentioned she loves me more than anything but love isn't everything. What do you say to that one...”


This sounds like lost person speak for “There is something I need in my life. I tried to fill it with you, but it’s still not working. I may have to leave to find it. The voices of my childhood are calling out for me to repeat my mistakes. Maybe the next change will give me what I want.”


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> she feels trapped and doesn't know if she wants to be married anymore.


She feels trapped? Set her free. Serve her and see how she responds. Start reading up on the 180.

You also seem to be in denial about what she does when she's out. Do you realize the chances of her not having behaved EXTREMELY inappropriately with strange men on these barhopping excursions is incredibly remote? 

You screwed up. Let her feel comfortable enough to go out to meat markets again. Then let the PI take over.

You need to get back in the drivers seat here. So far, she's been driving this conversation.


----------



## delta88

Copy that!

While we were on the topic of her leaving all the time, she rationalized that if I'd been the one to leave she would have never left the house. That I forced her to be the one to take-off by me not leaving. I responded by saying she is trying to punish me by always taking the kids when she feels like it. That's how it lead into she's all the kids need BS.

A buddy at work that was down a similar road told me to never leave the house and I put that advice to good use. 

Anyhow, I'm going to pick up a VAR tomorrow and have it running in the next few days. I need to know what I'm dealing with here.


----------



## delta88

I'm reading NMMNG right now. How did I let myself turn into such a puss? I'm completely off-track right now as a man.


----------



## Thor

The forums at www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums are a good place for specific support on nmmng concepts.


----------



## Decorum

delta88 said:


> Here is an update:
> 
> I confronted her to get counselling for the abuse she endured while she was growing up. She admitted that she needs to talk to someone but fears that I will learn of her experiences. The concern is that the MC would reveal these terrible events in her life and I will bear witness.
> 
> Also, after the last bar episode her intention is to quit drinking forever and says all she wants is to be married to me. My gut feeling is dinging like a fire alarm right about now. Her story has shifted a few times and just can't see her driving home at the latest, say 2:30am and sleeping in the driveway until I caught her walking in the door after 5am. Taking a three hour power nap in the driveway doesn't seem feasible. Maybe if I saw her sleeping in the vehicle I could believe her story.
> 
> Then the explanation was that the person she told me she drank with really wasn't there for long. Funny thing is this is the name she uttered when she stumbled through the door when I was asking where she was. Now the person was only there for a short time and the ladies she was dancing with were all strangers?
> 
> She is acting very nice too.













The saliva in the bite of a Vampire Bat thins the blood and numbs the wound (hematophagy), after that it licks you (lapping up the blood)

This seems like a *"nice"* behavior too, like a dog, its so cute, "lick, lick, lick", but its for the complete benefit of the bat.



delta88 said:


> If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again. No option for MC and reconcile. This would prove our relationship was all deception from the beginning and she is a succubus.



It seems pretty clear, but perhaps you will never know.



.


----------



## tom67

delta88 said:


> Copy that!
> 
> While we were on the topic of her leaving all the time, she rationalized that if I'd been the one to leave she would have never left the house. That I forced her to be the one to take-off by me not leaving. I responded by saying she is trying to punish me by always taking the kids when she feels like it. That's how it lead into she's all the kids need BS.
> 
> A buddy at work that was down a similar road told me to never leave the house and I put that advice to good use.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm going to pick up a VAR tomorrow and have it running in the next few days. I need to know what I'm dealing with here.


Good start
One VAR in the car and one in the house.


----------



## delta88

Bought 2 Sony icdpx333 VARs yesterday but work nights and wasn't 100% sure how the unit worked and the mounting I came up with was solid. The recorder will be mounted in the car for tomorrow and will post any updates. 

I read well into NMMNG and wow! How is it possible that a book describes my life so perfectly? Being raised by a single mother probably didn't help the matter either; a man hater actually. Thank god I was lucky enough to get some good male mentoring at crucial periods of my life.

Also, the article about the playmate cheating was sad. Sad in the sense of what men have become in a modern context. What poor bastard would honour a woman that declared her love for her husband while getting plowed by another man?


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> I read well into NMMNG and wow! How is it possible that a book describes my life so perfectly?


I think you must be about the 25th man to come here after reading that book and say the exact same thing.



delta88 said:


> Being raised by a single mother probably didn't help the matter either


Look for LifeScript's thread. He was raised by his mom and had a similar problem. He deleted his first thread or two, that really described the problems with his wife and his mom, but you will probably recognize yourself in it. He's come a long way, with the help of NMMNG and us.


----------



## delta88

Tunera and everyone that has taken the time to post on my thread, thank you. I read all the links and considered each of your suggestions and experiences. 

The recorder is mounted and recording. I figure that I will leave it for the weekend as I have is set to voice activated record mode. Snooping like this is kind of making me feel like a dirt bag...


----------



## Chaparral

Your number one responsibility is to protect your family. You have to use the tools available to do that. Good luck


----------



## SamuraiJack

Dont feel like a dirtbag...you are doing what is needed to get clear cut information.


----------



## turnera

Your wife is like a drug addict; drug addicts NEED you to rescue them. Getting the evidence so you can stop the flow of the drug IS HELPING HER. If she comes out of it and sees what she was doing, she will thank you. It's not a guarantee, of course, but you now have few options, after what she's started.


----------



## delta88

Well I just got a separation email stating "Okay so I’ve been thinking lots lately and decided it would be best we go through with separating. I just can’t see these issues we have going away anytime soon. I am totally unhappy and I know you are too. I do love you and hope one day we can see things differently". 

This pattern has repeated itself sooo many times already. The next phase is for her to take the kids out of town at least for the weekend. She will drink as sure as the sun shines, rivers flow, and the wind blows.


----------



## happy as a clam

Forget "separating." Tell her you will be filing for divorce immediately. And then do it. This will shake up her little plan in short order.

And get to a lawyer pronto to draw up a Shared Parenting Plan. This will eliminate her using the kids as pawns, "whisking" them out of town on a whim, possibly in a drunken stupor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Get a lawyer to stop her from taking the kids. And then go get the kids and take the kids somewhere today YOURSELF before she can get to them. That way she'll leave alone. She's not the ONLY parent; you have just as much right to keep them with you.


----------



## Lostinthought61

we are not born to snoop (well at least most of us aren't) we are pushed to snoop by the nefarious activities of others


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## phillybeffandswiss

delta88 said:


> This *pattern* has repeated itself sooo many times already.


Someone needs to stop being predicable i.e. a pattern and do something different.

My next email would contain the number to my lawyer and mediation papers for divorce.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> This pattern has repeated itself sooo many times already. The next phase is for her to take the kids out of town at least for the weekend. She will drink as sure as the sun shines, rivers flow, and the wind blows.


I had an old college girlfriend who admitted that she would regularly break up with her former boyfriend purely to tramp around for a while, then go back to him. Rinse, repeat. Again and again.

Might be time to get that PI in place.


----------



## delta88

Three hours of recordings got me nothing but radio and going through the coffee drive through.The VAR has been in place for all of yesterday and her excursion to the city today and is recording perfectly. 

As of today, my wife is cold as a cucumber and the look she gives me is hard to explain, brrr. I must be in some form of hell right now because deep down I don't want her to leave.


----------



## delta88

MachoMcCoy said:


> I had an old college girlfriend who admitted that she would regularly break up with her former boyfriend purely to tramp around for a while, then go back to him. Rinse, repeat. Again and again.
> 
> Might be time to get that PI in place.


The fact she always wants a separation and never a divorce has me seriously considering this possibility. In her mind she would be doing nothing wrong seeing other men because of her "separated" status.


----------



## turnera

Keep recording for at least 2 or 3 weeks. As for your wife, if she wants to treat you like that, let her. Ignore her and go about enjoying your life. That teaches her that you are not her servant and if she wants decent treatment she can provide it.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you read mmslp and nmmng yet?


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## delta88

I just got home from the night-shift and she has the house packed up. The Christmas decorations, kids sports equipment, pictures, books, everything. She hasn't left for work either and I have a bad feeling about this...


----------



## turnera

delta, what does it take for you to realize this is done?

If she were treating you like this when you were dating, would you THEN be able to see the truth?

She wants to be away from you. Stop begging her to stay. Find SOME source of dignity, man.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife is out of control.

Divorce her.


----------



## delta88

How do I divorce? do I just call a lawyer and give him my bum rap?


----------



## delta88

She seems to think because I work shift-work I'm an incapable parent due to my sleeping when my kids would be awake. Would this be something family courts consider?


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## delta88

Tunera, thanks


----------



## Thor

Call an attorney right now. Most will give you a free consultation, about 10 to 30 minutes, where you can get some basic questions answered. They can tell you how things generally go down where you live. They can answer how your shift work may or may not be of concern, and how they would approach it. They can tell you how spousal support and child support generally work.

Some will do a phone consult with you, others will talk to you in their office. They really don't care about a lot of the sob story, but they do care about the relevant issues as far as the court will be concerned. Your wife's behavior may or may not be at all relevant.


----------



## honcho

delta88 said:


> She took the kids and is gone, again. As soon as I get home tomorrow i will be calling a lawyer. I called the local police asking if my wife can just take the kids and they answered that we both have custody and therefore access to the kids is joint. The officer suggested getting a lawyer as well as once something is ordered, they will enforce it.
> 
> Getting ready to go to sleep this morning I was just lying in my bed when a serious case of DeJa vu came over me where this had already happened. Oh wait, this has happened before...lol


Hire a lawyer and also face the fact you must file. Until you file for divorce she has tremendous freedom from taking the kids to cleaning out your bank accounts. Once the legal paperwork is filed it changes all that.


----------



## delta88

She took the kids and is gone, again. As soon as I get home tomorrow i will be calling a lawyer. I called the local police asking if my wife can just take the kids and they answered that we both have custody and therefore access to the kids is joint. The officer suggested getting a lawyer as well as once something is ordered, they will enforce it.

Getting ready to go to sleep this morning I was just lying in my bed when a serious case of DeJa vu came over me where all of this had already happened. Oh wait, it has happened before...lol


----------



## delta88

Can I just file to start the process or do I have to be able to pay for everything upfront? 

I can't believe I married such a dishonest woman. Now that I think of it, the girlfriend before my wife had similar qualities. Subconsciously I must have been asking for the punishment. NMMNG mentioned some important facts and one that sticks out is what can I learn about myself during this whole experience. And how a healthy man would handle a similar situation.


----------



## turnera

I'm going to see a lawyer Wednesday and the first consult will cost $50. You can do that, too, and ask them to direct you to the proper forms that YOU can fill out to stop her from taking your kids.

And yes, if you can't be awake during the hours when the kids need supervision, you will be considered unable to parent, unless you can afford childcare during those hours.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Look talk to a lawyer, but stop worrying about these small things. You file so, you can stop her fropm disappearing with your kids. Yes, custody still sucks for men, but you can have a semblance of control when the court decides what is best. 50% is better than zero right? You fight to be in your kids life and worry about the amount later.

Many men think like you, but the longer you are separated from your kids the more strength she has in family court.


----------



## delta88

I just heard audio of my wife telling her friends she is planning on having sex with a guy on our block, and that it would really mess me up.

STUNNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## delta88

I slipped up last night ant told my wife about nmmng. Please advise


----------



## Thor

Don't worry about it, she is soon to be an ex-wife.


----------



## happy as a clam

delta88 said:


> I slipped up last night ant told my wife about nmmng. Please advise


I don't really see why this is a problem. You have every right to read a book about relationship issues.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> I slipped up last night ant told my wife about nmmng. Please advise


I'm not sure what that even means. I mean, I think I know what nmmng is, but why tell her about it? It just fixes you, right?

Anyhow...

These toxic friends have been having a ball lately. They egg each other on. Your wife was with a man that night until 5:00. You know that now, right? You know those other nights were probably pretty bad too, right? I get everybody confused, but she probably said she doesn't love you once or twice in the recent past, right?

I cant imagine divorce isn't your only option. These folks will give you some good advice for what to do on your way, but that is the end goal, right?

I mean, she's not going to screw this guy for the fun of it. She's going to screw him to **** with you.

I mean...:scratchhead:


----------



## turnera

Are you ready to move on now?


----------



## SamuraiJack

delta88 said:


> I just heard audio of my wife telling her friends she is planning on having sex with a guy on our block, and that it would really mess me up.
> 
> STUNNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You know...Im thinking your lawyer might like to hear this...it might be inadmissable but at least he will know what type of person you are dealing with and set more effective traps for her.


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## lifeistooshort

You really need a legal custody plan. As the cops told you she's their mother and can take them whenever and wherever she wants. How would you feel if she could call the cops every time you took them somewhere she didn't know about and approve of? You're their father. 

Even when you have a plan you get no say in where she takes them and who they see, unless you can convince a judge they're in danger and he outlines specific people they can't see and places they can't go. But when it's your time with them she can't interfere or you can call the cops.

The shift work might be an issue, a judge can consider that. Unfortunately it would be helpful if you were on good terms with her because your shift work may require some flexibility from her, which she isn't necessarily required to provide. Talk to your lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## delta88

I'm not taking all this very well. My house is empty and all I have is the cat. According to the recording, she is going to leave me with nothing and will take the cat and whatever else she forgot.

Yes Tunera, I want her out of my life and my name back. My chin is still getting lower every minute. Do you have any tips that can get me through the rough spots?


----------



## Decorum

delta88 said:


> I'm not taking all this very well. My house is empty and all I have is the cat. According to the recording, she is going to leave me with nothing and will take the cat and whatever else she forgot.
> 
> Yes Tunera, I want her out of my life and my name back. My chin is still getting lower every minute. Do you have any tips that can get me through the rough spots?





delta88 said:


> I just heard audio of my wife telling her friends she is planning on having sex with a guy on our block, and that it would really mess me up.
> 
> STUNNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is a level of intentional harm that we don't often see on TAM. Its usually confined to revenge affairs.

You have to see your stbxw differently now, let any respect slip away (i.e. in you thinking, continue to be cordial but firm), and recognize her behavior as being the result of her choices not a refection on you. Because it is. No one deserves this.

You want to work towards indifference towards her, and at the most feel pity. Her having sex with some guy to shame you is really just dishonoring herself. The guy who does it is just using her body, she is not a good person and it means little more than him reliving himself with his own hand while watching porn.

I am not saying you should say this but here is a thought process that may help you "armor up" for her intended abuse.

In you thinking you might say to her, "It was just sex, he jacked off using your body, are you proud of that?"

She may say "I loved every minute of it he was so much better than you."

Your reply, "Intimacy with someone you care about is so much more than just sex, its the whole package, you just had sex with him, no big deal, its all you have to offer." "It's actually kind of creepy really, please stay away from me"

You will have to spend time retraining your emotions for sometime to recover from this relationship. A therapist can help with that. Its normal you would need to do this, part of life that results from a broken relationship.


One more thing, it common for us to recommend the "180" (it was mentioned previously) and to work on yourself. Here is a thread that discusses this and it has links for the 180 as well.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Btw, did you tell her you were reading NMMNG to try to influence her? ...let her go!!! (Read that link on the newbie thread also, "let her go"). 

If she just found out on her own , no big deal, right? You are doing it for yourself not her anyway, right? Who gives a flying flip what she thinks?

Hey this is a very hard thing to discover, I am so sorry, and I really wish you well.

Take care!


----------



## sh987

I'm late to this, but when I read threads like this, with consistent talk of separation, it makes me think of this:



> "I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.
> 
> Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings."
> 
> Dr. Willard Harley, author "His Needs Her Needs"


Coping with Infidelity: Beginning (Part 1)

When you add in the behaviours described by delta, Stevie Wonder could see what she's been up to. If only it's so easy for people to see when it's happening to them, though. Sorry to hear of your troubles, delta.


----------



## happyman64

Delta

You have been given great advice by everyone.

Go see an attorney.

File for divorce.

Have your wife served.

Then she can go screw the guy down the street all she wants.

You and your boys deserve better. Their Mom is a nut job. She declines help. 

And you cannot help her.

So divorce her.

Save yourself. Save your boys.

HM


----------



## turnera

Best way to put HER jaw on the floor is to hand her the divorce papers first.


----------



## SamuraiJack

turnera said:


> Best way to put HER jaw on the floor is to hand her the divorce papers first.


Yes indeed. She has done everything in her power to "shock and awe" you.

Dont you think it's time for you to take back some of your power?


----------



## delta88

I got to see my kids today and it was great. For them being gone such a short while I missed them more than words can say. We all went out for a bite to eat and watched planes land at the airport.

My wife has them in a hotel in the city and apparently has been in contact with the boys school explaining the situation. Who knows what she is telling the school actually. Her story is she hopes a rental comes through or she will go stay with some female friend in the inner-city. A real crappy end of the city that bothers me having my kids there.

She refuses even coming to the house and wants me to take the kids tomorrow night so she can go sleep at her same friend mentioned above. What have I done that all of the sudden made it mandatory she removes the children from their home and school? She even took them to her mothers to be sure not to leave me alone with my sons, with the exception of last Monday, for the last week she still lived here but had to work . The VAR picked up a call from her mom saying she couldn't watch the kids that day so she wasn't doing me any favours.

I want to confront her soo bad right now about the VAR evidence I have and that I know she is a dirty woman. She says she already looked the guy up and he is fling material. My hands are shaking so bad right now...


----------



## Suspecting2014

Do not confront!!!!!!

Confront? What for?
This is not the first time she is going to cheat on you?
Confronting her you only gonna make her mad and Keep your kids away. Besides you must never release your information sources, ever!!

Sorry but she is not the person you married. She is some one you dont know and is capable of much more than you think.

She is not cheting on you because her drinking, she is planning and making arragements to do it...there is no excuse for whst she is doing.

IMO you should do the next.

Get legal advice ASAP and file for D. And get her serve. You need to know if you are in a non fault and if you need her concent over the records you have of her. Besides what you can use in court for custody and CS.

Document all her doings, this time and previous. You will need it in court.

Do not talk to her directly, just by text and email. When eve you face her be with someone else and record the encounter. She may try to acuse you of abuse. Be carefull.

Split you financial assets, get ready for D.

See if you can get your kids and get a rRO bases on her drinking and reckless behavior arround your kids.

If possible, hire a PI to get evidence of the place she is taking your kids to stay and with whom. Also her drinking abuse.

Sorry again but you should get rid of her ASAP.

Keep venting if needed.

Realice that the main thing to do at this moment is protect your kids.


----------



## happyman64

Delta

Your wife has many issues.

Give her one more.

File for D and have her served.

She is no good to you nor to your children.

All she is doing is lying to your face and dragging the kids around from place to place.

Serve her. Divorce her. And give your kids some stability.


----------



## Chaparral

Are you reading any of the replies to your questions?


----------



## LongWalk

Keep your kids as much as you can. Document. Regarding depression, self esteem, etc. By taking action to put a stop to this charade you will feel better about yourself. 

When you post about filing for D you will be sad but proud. Everyone here will clap you on the back.


----------



## delta88

Yes, I have read all of your posts. I appear to be in a weird paradigm where seeing my family again makes me want it all back. Like a dog getting beat down, having my boys absent from my life is the ultimate psychological weapon and she knows this. 

Here it goes...I keep making excuses to get the divorce process started because I still love my family and something in my heart is hopeful that this is a misunderstanding. My difficulty lies in fully knowing this fantasy will never come true and I am bringing unnecessary pain to myself by dragging it out. And yes, I need so badly to vent. 

The plan now is to play the sucker with the wife and get in to see a lawyer on Monday. Certain times are harder than others not to act out of emotion.


----------



## Chaparral

Actually turning your back on her and showing her you will be fine without her makes you more attractive to her. However, I think she has created on you many times and you can do much better.

A woman that brags to her friends she is going to bang someone down the street is useless to a man.


----------



## delta88

There is hope. I just contacted a lawyer and he recommends a separation agreement. After that he says the divorce is just a matter of filing a few forms. He asked for a $1500 retainer.

My jurisdiction's courts website states $150 divorce filing fee is required so is this something I can file on my own and use a mediator instead of a lawyer?


----------



## Nucking Futs

delta88 said:


> There is hope. I just contacted a lawyer and he recommends a separation agreement. After that he says the divorce is just a matter of filing a few forms. He asked for a $1500 retainer.
> 
> My jurisdiction's courts website states $150 divorce filing fee is required so is this something I can file on my own and use a mediator instead of a lawyer?


Sure you can. You'll probably never see your kids again if you do, but you can save a few bucks in the short term and pay child support for kids you never get to see in the long term if you'd prefer.

Your wife is not going to _give_ you a fair deal in a divorce. Your wife is one of the ones that will lie, cheat, and manipulate you and the system to screw you over as much as possible. You are not suited to represent yourself in this kind of fight, you're emotionally involved. You need someone on your side who is not emotionally involved and will fight on your behalf to get you a fair deal.

Put out the $1500, it could save you far more than that. Remember the old saying: Why are divorces so expensive? Because they're worth it.


----------



## delta88

You all don't realize how helpful your comments have been; thanks.


----------



## Thor

A mediator does not mean, in most places but check in your area to be sure, that you are obligated to whatever is agreed upon. Not until you sign papers. So don't sign anything up front if you go to a mediator.

Mediation just means you and your stbxw sit down in the same room with the mediator and you come to an agreement on everything. The mediator is there to keep you from punching each other. But if one of you is not willing to go along with what the other wants, there is no agreement and you will be forced to let the lawyers fight it out in court.

Your best bet is probably to get a lawyer to hit her hard and fast. Your wife may give you what you want. But if you drag it out she may start to fight back and make unreasonable demands.

In your case I don't see any reason to believe she will be cooperative in mediation. She is trying to beat you down already with the kids!

So I would talk to a lawyer.

Also you need some legal structure to keep her from taking off with the kids. Today you have as much right to keep them in their home and school as she does to take them away, but if you let this go on she may establish a new "norm" which the courts will decide is what you agreed to by letting her do it! So get your lawyer's help to keep the kids where they are now.

You need a lawyer imho.


----------



## turnera

delta, find the money and pay the lawyer. It's the best money you'll ever spend.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Lawyer besides help with D will protector you, your asets, and help you with custody, cs, alumoney, etc.

Notice that a lot of law firma gives you the first one or twohours for free.

Anyhow, maybe your wife wont figth you for the kids


----------



## the guy

You have to get a lawyer an get your kids out of that shyt neigborhood and back to their real life.

If you want your kids to suffer less you will beg, barrow and sell what ever you have to get a court order and get those kids back in *their* home and back in *their* school.

They way I see it your old lady is driving those kids around town hung over in the morning and drunk in the evening...and when she is too drunk she lets who evr watch them.

Sorry man your going through a lot of shyt but you need to pull your head out of your @ss and stop thinking about you and start getting those kids settled in a healthy enviorment....then you can get back to figuring out what you need to do with your old lady!

I lived in the bad part of the city, I had a wife just like yours, and I know what your kids are around.....you would not like what you saw if you could see what i already lived when I was going through this crap.

YOU GET THAT $1500 AND GO GET THAT LAWYER AND YOU HAND THEM THE MONEY AND BEFORE YOU LET IT OUR OF YOUR HAND YOU LOOK THE LAWYER RIGHT IN THE EYE AND TELL THEM YOU WANT YOUR KIDS BACK IN THERE OWN SCHOOL BEFORE SPRING BREAK IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for yelling but these poor kids have had to deal with this shyt from their mother most of their lives....it's time for it to stop.

The way I see it if your old lady can figure out how to keep her kids and still go out and party and get laid....you can figure out how to work swing shift and have the kids also.

Let me think....

mom who parties and phucks strange guys or dad who work shift....I'm guessing the dad that works shift would be a better option for the kids.....

What do you think? 

Come on man talk to your employer and your family and figure this **** out with the kids.

Do you understand that out of all the kids that get molested it's the mothers boyfriend that does it the most...that catagory bets out a family member, a priest and even a troop leader.

Your kids are more likely to get phucked with by their mothers shady friends then the creepy uncle Chester or Father Pat Mycrotch!


----------



## delta88

Here is how it all went down thus far:

After my shift I went out to where she had the kids overnight and spoke with her face to face. I told her one of her friends contacted me once my wife told them of her intentions to cheat. She freaked and demanded to know which friend it was. I had to laugh as she bought it so hard.

Anyhow, I went word for word what she said on the VAR and she still denied saying everything. Then I asked if she contacted the guy I used to work with up the street. She confessed she tried to contact him about a month ago. From this point I told her I have proof and know she is lying about trying to start a sexual relationship with him. Now her story changed to she did say that she wanted him to her friends but didn't mean any of it! 

It was sad to see she cannot be honest even if she tries. The whole process reminded me of a misbehaved child that refused to own up to their actions. Her real concern was which friend/sister told me about her cheating? She commented that I wouldn't want to tell her because I still plan on using her for more information. And that we are divorcing anyhow so none of this matters anymore.

Funny thing is I must have unknowingly put my VAR in my pocket before I spoke with her and got the whole conversation on tape. Last weekend she told me I was the only one who wanted a divorce and she just needed some space so we could sort out our issues. 

Now she's busted and ready to divorce. Ha


----------



## delta88

So I stopped at the guy's place my wife wanted to have sex with after getting back home. We know each-other so I figure I'll knock at his door and see what's up.

He opens the door and asks me to come in. I'm standing there asking him when he started messing around with my wife. He's looking at me like what the f*&k is he talking about. Then he said he doesn't even know my wife and wouldn't recognize her if she walked across the street. That he has never spoke to her or anything.

Then he said someone tried to add him to their facebook friend list a while ago but he didn't accept because he didn't know her. He tried to find the request on his phone for me but said it must have been removed. He asked me if I had a picture to show him and he would know for sure as the name she was under he couldn't remember. I pulled out my phone and showed him and he confirmed that she was the one!!!!!

My wife said she didn't even have a facebook account; unreal! We spoke for about half an hour and he took my number down and called me after to say he had no luck finding it again. He is a single dad and his ex I knew from a long time ago. Apparently his ex was the same way my wife is and would always take off and lie and do god knows what else. After it was all said and done he was giving me pointers to get my kids back and was being genuinely supportive.

I felt great, my wife extended herself and got shot down. Karma is interesting to watch in these situations. My wife is a dirty deceitful woman and a common skank. I feel bad my boys have her as a mother as bad as that is to say.


----------



## delta88

Divorce time!! I can't wait until she falls apart and it is just a matter of time. When I see my boy I'm going to tell them to call me if mom is drunk so I can call the police and CFS. It will fast-track the custody situation. 

She lives clean there will be no problem but if she brings drunks around my kids and exposes them to her drinking I will release the hounds.


----------



## Regretf

delta88 said:


> So I stopped at the guy's place my wife wanted to have sex with after getting back home. We know each-other so I figure I'll knock at his door and see what's up.
> 
> He opens the door and asks me to come in. I'm standing there asking him when he started messing around with my wife. He's looking at me like what the f*&k is he talking about. Then he said he doesn't even know my wife and wouldn't recognize her if she walked across the street. That he has never spoke to her or anything.
> 
> Then he said someone tried to add him to their facebook friend list a while ago but he didn't accept because he didn't know her. He tried to find the request on his phone for me but said it must have been removed. He asked me if I had a picture to show him and he would know for sure as the name she was under he couldn't remember. I pulled out my phone and showed him and he confirmed that she was the one!!!!!
> 
> My wife said she didn't even have a facebook account; unreal! We spoke for about half an hour and he took my number down and called me after to say he had no luck finding it again. He is a single dad and his ex I knew from a long time ago. Apparently his ex was the same way my wife is and would always take off and lie and do god knows what else. After it was all said and done he was giving me pointers to get my kids back and was being genuinely supportive.
> 
> I felt great, my wife extended herself and got shot down. Karma is interesting to watch in these situations. My wife is a dirty deceitful woman and a common skank. I feel bad my boys have her as a mother as bad as that is to say.


You've seen all you need to see from your X. Divorce her. Protect your assets and fight for your kids custody. She's no good. At least you are seeing all this side of her so you won't regret your desition.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> Divorce time!! I can't wait until she falls apart and it is just a matter of time. When I see my boy I'm going to tell them to call me if mom is drunk so I can call the police and CFS. It will fast-track the custody situation.


You're not serious, are you? Tell your son that you'll have his mom dragged away? And that he'll be the one responsible for it?


----------



## delta88

I never thought of that actually.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I would pose it this way....when mommy drinks to much she can hurt herself so you need to tell daddy so he can get her help, which by the way you should.


----------



## delta88

My kids are number one and if she decides to put them in an unsafe situation what happens will be her own doing alone. She will slip-up and when she does I will be there. 

From this point forward I'm going to use that thing in my back I one called a spine. I will pay for all of the house expenses and utilities but no extra money will be available. All extra available funds are going into a separate savings account as I prepare for her to come for her half of the house. I was considering giving her money for having the kids but when I assess the whole situation, she was the one who removed them and I'm not going to reward that behavior. Heck, I still don't know where they even are in the city; unreal. 

My mother and sister already committed to help when my shifts would prevent me from being at home. My oldest boy doesn't want me to sell the house and believe he will want to come back to live with me. No way I'm going to break my two boys up either, they are very close. In my heart I know that god is on my side too and all I have to do is act with integrity and everything will be okay. The universe is just thank god.


----------



## Thor

Do you even have a lawyer yet?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

How are things going, Delta?


----------



## delta88

The lawyer wants $1500 for a separation agreement that I have to negotiate with my wife and she will need a lawyer to look it over too.

My wife moved into a rental house in the city and I was weak and went over and had sex with her. Not sure why I caved but it felt nice to be with her again.

Anyway, last weekend I had the kids and after I spent the night, she confessed she went out to the bar with her friends. She also managed to sign a year lease on the house, co-signed for a car loan for a friend, Moved her niece and nephew into her new place and financed another $2000+ on a surround sound system and TV. All this was dropped on me via text too; ouch.

Now she is asking for help to make payments on our previous financial obligations, put new brakes on the van, buy her a ooma phone system. Not only that but there are daily requests for stuff from our home to make her more comfortable in her new life.

Her take on attempting to start a sexual relationship with the guy up the street was that she was never going to follow through with things. That she was stupid for doing that but no sorry or I will never do that again either. Now the whole taking off to the bar without me knowing is again my fault as she felt she mentioned that she had an interest in going to bars and I didn't act on her requests.

Why is it she can not own up to anything she has done. Somehow I am always directly or indirectly responsible for her irresponsible choices.


----------



## delta88

My gut it dinging away about her lying about not drinking. Now I find out she is going to bars while I have the boys on weekends. All her credit cards are maxed again and I have accumulated no debt but am strapped keeping the old ship afloat.

I get confused when she tells me she wants us to fix what is wrong and that a separation/divorce is my idea and she has never really wanted that? All her actions are saying the opposite of what she is saying. Plus, in her mind, all our problems can be fixed through me sorting out my issues.

So today I told her that I want a legal separation and if a reconcile is ever possible, I will need her to take a polygraph to confirm her level of honesty. As a show of good faith I offered to take a test myself but she stonewalled me saying there is no point in us communicating any longer. Sort of the same thing when I confronted her about saying she was planning on having an affair, she said it doesn't matter because we are divorcing anyway. How did we go from "I need time apart" to "who cares, we're divorcing" type of attitude. She can't tell the truth for the life of her

From this point forward, she can lay in her own bed. I told her she will never learn if I keep bailing her out so I will not help her in any way. Funny thing is after I slept over she text me saying thanks for the booty call...


----------



## delta88

I should mention I spoke with a counselor and she agreed with your assessment of me not establishing healthy boundaries with my wife. Her recommendation for now was identify 5 boundaries that are important to me and my function as a person. First thing on the list was honesty which made me realize allowing my wife to lie to me is coming at a cost to my well-being. 

When I asked my wife if she had sex with another man while she was at the bar she brandished a huge smile and said no. why the smile?


----------



## Thor

Congratulations on all of her spending. You are on the hook for it until you spend the $ on a lawyer and get some papers filed.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

delta88 said:


> When I asked my wife if she had sex with another man while she was at the bar she brandished a huge smile and said no. why the smile?


You gave her hope for reconciliation.
You gave her hope that she can keep doing the same ting.
You gave her hope that things will be returning to normal.


She lied to your face and thought it was funny. 

Too many reasons.


----------



## delta88

This whole situation sucks really. My sister agrees that I'm being played but it's that hope of life returning to normal and getting my family back has me acting irrationally.


----------



## happyman64

Delta

You mentioned earlier about getting a spine and using it.

I suggest you do it now before you are wrecked financially and footing all the bills.

The next step will be Chapter 11.

Divorce her.

Give her what she is asking for.

Do not lend her a penny.

She will never grow up until you show her tough love.

HM


----------



## delta88

Ah yes, the spine. Maybe the broom-stick will get me started...


----------



## happyman64

delta88 said:


> I'm being played but it's that hope of life returning to normal and getting my family back has me acting irrationally.


You are reacting out of fear. Sadly, it happens most of the time.

Try this.

Set those boundaries with your wife. It is called the "Let Her Go" plan.

You fake it till you make it. You make her realize that you are moving forward in life with her or without her.

That you and the boys will be just fine without her.

I think your wife is not only using you but has no plan on coming back.

Wanna look attractive to her? Then do this.

Cease all communication with her except talk about your kids.
Clean up. Stop being emotional. Be a rock. Be mysterious.
New haircut. Get in shape and have fun when you do not have your boys.

Be the best Dad. Yes she is screwing around when you have the boys. Treat her like the liar she is and like she has an std.

Stop helping her. Let her feel the full impact of her decisions. 

Let her feel the full impact of you not in her life.

And the quicker you can divorce her the better.

Secure your assets.

HM


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> Why is it she can not own up to anything she has done. Somehow I am always directly or indirectly responsible for her irresponsible choices.


Because she doesn't have to. You're so weak that she can do whatever she wants and just blame it all on you. And you let her.


----------



## Chaparral

You're dealing with an alcoholic. When you accept that, you will figure things out. Go to AA and get a helping hand.

She's using people like all drunk/drug addicts do.


----------



## the guy

delta88 said:


> When I asked my wife if she had sex with another man while she was at the bar she brandished a huge smile and said no. why the smile?


She knows she still has the power over you.

Stop asking if she is screwing around and stop banging her.

Challenge your self and go pick up some strange. Phucking your old lady is just going screw up your head even more.


Something tells me your old lady just has to push one button on her cell and it sends the text "thanks for the booty call" to who ever she wants to send that to.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> Divorce time!!





delta88 said:


> My wife moved into a rental house in the city...



I'm confused. I thought this was over. I can see you being shaken up about the end of your marriage, but somehow I don't think you know it's over.




delta88 said:


> Now I find out she is going to bars while I have the boys on weekends.





delta88 said:


> When I asked my wife if she had sex with another man while she was at the bar she brandished a huge smile and said no. why the smile?


WTF!?!?!? And that is all after your introductory posts where you describe her as a party girl bar *****. Do you have ANY IDEA how many men she's...been "inappropriate with"...since you've been married? And how many of her friends, YOUR friends know? 

Get that polygraph and find out how many anonymous hookups she's had since you've been married. Then please post the results here. And not just for voyeurs like me. Post it for all of those beta husbands that say "my wife goes partying at meat markets with her divorced friends every weekend and I'm cool with that".

Get that spine so you can start looking at yourself in the mirror again. She's broken. You won't fix her. Sorry. But PLEASE move on.

Are you keeping a journal? Start. Use this thread as a template. You have a party ***** for a wife and not a SINGLE piece of concrete evidence to prove it. This split up will not go well for you without SOME documentation.


----------



## turnera

One would read the two books we keep pushing you to read, No More Mr Nice Guy, and Married Man Sex Life Primer.


----------



## delta88

How would one change from a beta to an alpha?


----------



## delta88

I read NMMNG turnera. Is the other book available in pdf? Thanks again for all your support.


----------



## turnera

What did you change after reading it? Just reading doesn't change you. You have to do things DIFFERENTLY.


----------



## delta88

No excuses Turnera but old habits die hard. As of today I'm going to start the breaking free activities.


----------



## turnera

Pick one thing to change, and focus on that one thing, for 3 weeks. It takes that long to change a habit. Then move on to a different thing to change.


----------



## Chaparral

Mmslp can be downloaded from amazon.com. Read it and follow the Map plan it provides.
http://www.amazon.com/Married-Man-L...7&sr=8-1&keywords=married+man+sex+life+primer

It costs ten dollars.


----------



## delta88

I wanted to update you all on the status of my marriage. As of tomorrow i will have been to four counselling sessions available through coverage from work. The meetings have been great and have started some CBT to get me back on track. He says I suffer from depression and started me on an exercise program, to eat better, to sleep my full 8 hours a night, and to start to take Valerian root. Initially it helped but working 30 hours of overtime a week and managing shift-work has been a challenge to say the least.

Anyhow, he suggested that i make a list of what I need to stay in this relationship. He wanted five things but all I could come up with is three. To put our relationship first instead of her or myself, for both of us to stop drinking, and that I would know of any contact she has with any men that is personal in nature. 

This is where it hit the fan. My wife stated she would do none of the three things and I explained that then I would not longer be in her life. She hung up on me and didn't hear back from her for a couple of days. All of a sudden she calls me and starts crying saying she wants to see me and she keeps hearing a Jeff Healy song that reminds her of me. Angel Eyes for you nosey people. She comes over to my sisters and declares she cannot live without me and that she didn't realize how much she loved me and needs us to be together. Then she says she is willing to do the things I need to stay together. I respond to her by suggesting she make a list for me of what she needs out of me to be happy and stay in our marriage. 

Insert a lot of sex here -------->


----------



## delta88

All of the sudden it's like the woman I married is back. She feels like her family took advantage of her by asking her to co-sign for a car and have another niece move in. Yes, that would make two nieces and a nephew that she moved in to her house. My take on it is a few weeks is okay but no long term 

Fast forward to me being asked to spend nights over at her new place which was weird to say the least. Rap music always bumping and two teenage girls with hormones raging and boys wanting to spend the night at my wife's place. NFW! I tried to adjust but just felt out of place getting off work before my wife and going back to her house with a bunch of kids playing house. My boys don't like living with so many people either so we all sort feel displaced by the current situation but have been trying to make the best of it.


----------



## turnera

Why are you adapting to HER world? Sex?


----------



## Lostinthought61

I hate to point this out but my gut tells me that after she hung up the phone on you she went through her options with others and then realized that you were the best options for her life...not sure that love had anything to do with it


----------



## happyman64

Glad you got some.

Now take your kids home, go dark and see if your wife comes to you!


----------



## delta88

Turnera,
We had some great moments but I have always been a sucker for that aspect of things. 

My gut tells me the same thing actually. I'm on my way to a 7 and will not finish until I reach an 8. If I advance my ticket to my potential I become a 8.5 to 9.


----------



## delta88

Happyman,

I can do this but I do not want to. She wants to move far away and says it is because it is because she needs to get away from her family. Now she wants me to sell the house.


----------



## happyman64

You do what you want to do in your own good time. 

Control the situation as best you can.

Because your W is not making any rational decisions right now.

You tell her "I am sorry you feel that way".

Then walk away.


----------



## delta88

My wife spoke to her aunt for and hour about our last separation and according to her husband, I should walk away. apparently her aunt said my wife is not thinking right.


----------



## delta88

to walk away


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> Fast forward to me being asked to spend nights over at her new place which was weird to say the least. Rap music always bumping and two teenage girls with hormones raging and boys wanting to spend the night at my wife's place. NFW! I tried to adjust but just felt out of place getting off work before my wife and going back to her house with a bunch of kids playing house.


Party girl moves out and into a party house. No surprise there.


----------



## turnera

What's surprising is that you'd let your kids go there.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

I truly don't mean to be cruel, but how many boys do you think she's had there? I fully understand she's told you (or implied through silence on the subject) that the answer is zero. But imagine her sneaking back into the house after a night with the boys at 5:30 AM while she LIVES with you. Imagine while she's gone. Or is this a "we were broken up so it didn't count" scenario? 

How many men do you think she's slept with since you've been married? Including "breakups" (a breakup in name only so you can pursue sex with others doesn't count). DO you think it's zero? Because I think it's a lot. It matters because it looks like you are giddy in love again. I think bad crap happened in the love shack and she needs to get out of town. You are a good, predictable, loyal backup. Just be a good boy and you can have that treat that's between her legs... 

But I have a vivid imagination.

Anyhow, I truly don't understand what is going on there. And your kids live there with her par time?

Is this one of those made-up threads?


----------



## delta88

I wish Macho. The kids are in school in the city as she pulled them from the one in the town we live in. When I called the principal, the explained there was nothing that could be done to stop it outside me having sole custody. 

Anyhow, During my counselling session today I was told that I'm not at all abusive as my wife's counsellor suggested. That my reactions were normal and in his 30 years of doing his job, he knew what to look for. It was like a weight was lifted. My wife explained to me that I have her trapped in a cycle of violence and that's why she had to move out and us be apart. So I spent two weeks thinking my reactions to her were in fact abusive. The guard went down and the wallet opened up.

Another thing we touched on was that my wife needed me to trust her more than anything and was very important to her. My take is I lack trust for my wife right now. He went on to explain trust is earned and not turned on like a light switch. Another weight lifted. 

Thanks for your posts


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Your wife is nuts. YOU are nuts for trying to be with her. You need to divorce her and get custody of your kids. Period.


----------



## Tron

Your wife sounds like a borderline. 

You might look at some of Uptown's posts. He was married to one.

And hit some of the links in this thread: 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...vorce-after-nightout-female-colleagues-4.html


----------



## happyman64

Your counselor seems on target and you are getting good insight regarding your traits.

That is great.

In time you are going to see your wife for who she truly is....


----------



## Uptown

Delta, I agree with Tron that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, feelings of entitlement, lack of empathy, blaming you for every misfortune, impulsive behavior, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD like Narcissistic PD.



delta88 said:


> Your posts on my wife seeing me as a villain are bang on.... she mentioned she loves me more than anything but love isn't everything.


You seem to be describing black-white thinking, which is another red flag for BPD (and/or narcissism). It typically occurs in BPDers (i.e., those having strong traits) because they have the emotional development of a four year old. Due to this immaturity, they cannot tolerate experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas in interpersonal relationships. They therefore categorize everyone close to them as "all good" (white) or "all bad" (black) and, in just ten seconds, will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other. 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as the lack of impulse control (e.g., alcoholism, food binges, or spending binges), always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you avoid a painful situation and decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion from a psychologist.

I therefore join Tron in suggesting that you read about BPD warning signs to see if most seem to apply strongly to your W's behavior. An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join Tron and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Delta.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> hen I asked her if she was with any other guys after she moved back, she replied that if she had she wouldn't be back with me.





delta88 said:


> The whole time we have been together she would assure me that she could never cheat on me. That she loves me so deeply that she can't even see another man in that manner. That she doesn't let other men approach her and wont allow that type of communication. Shes not that type...





delta88 said:


> Her story has shifted a few times and just can't see her driving home at the latest, say 2:30am and sleeping in the driveway until I caught her walking in the door after 5am. Taking a three hour power nap in the driveway doesn't seem feasible. Maybe if I saw her sleeping in the vehicle I could believe her story.





delta88 said:


> If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again.



Ok. I'm done. That's the quote I'm looking for anyhow.


Delta. I do not know female sexuality. I probably know rocket science better than I know female sexuality. So I can't help you there.

One thing I DO know is male sexuality. And I know that if the dynamics were reversed, and even a moderately attractive man could walk into any bar he wants and take his choice of the women there for sex, he would be out EVERY SINGLE NIGHT on the prowl for easy sex. NOTHING would get done anywhere. Society would collapse.

So, what's different about women? Do they get as horny? I don't know. Do they look for different things when they are? I don't know. I don't know any of it, but SOMETHING allows women to keep it in their pants A LOT easier than men. And most do.

But some don't. I know women. I know OF women. I have read stories on this site that have dealt with women who ARE as horny as men and take it when they can. Every night? No, but if you're horny and have experience going out to bars and getting laid on demand, you HAVE to revert back to it.

I will tell only ONE story, of the many I have. Long time ago. Two friends of mine driving home one Weekend night. Dream come true: hot chick hitch-hiking by herself. They stop. Friend in passenger seat leans the back forward for her to get in. She pushes it back and sits oh his lap. Sex in the passenger seat. Car stops, they switch and the driver takes his turn. She gets out. They go home.

One more: My good friend thinks that his wife stepped out of their marriage only once, a long time ago. I think she's screwed HUNDREDS of guys.

Prepare yourself my friend. I think you still think she's been faithful. A partier, but faithful. I think she's been around the block a few times.


----------



## Lostinthought61

In order for there to be trust, you need to come clean about the past....tell you well trust her 100% today but she needs to take a poly about the past....otherwise you can not move on to trust....put that line in the sand and see what she says ....must be done in person to get her reaction.....watch it all body, eyes, micro expressions on her face.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Xenote said:


> ....must be done in prison to get her reaction..


Freudian slip?


----------



## delta88

So I went by my wife's place on Sunday and wanted to share my experience. From the time I walked in the door she pushed me away and was acting miserable to my kids and to me about everything. This time I didn't play into her behaviour by getting upset or engaging should I say.

The whole night all I heard was that she smelled, had bad gas, and upset stomach, no point in showering, don't hug or touch me, give me space, i want to go for a nap by myself. I did not play into her behaviour and she kept escalating her display of overall disapproval for me as a spouse and a person. 

Anyhow, she woke up from her nap and made herself something to eat and wanted me to buy the boys supper. No biggie I thought to myself. Then she starts scarfing down pizza pops in front of the kids while they are hungry. I explained that I will buy us all supper but she explained she is not hungry and I need to just buy for the boys. Then she starts doing the dishes and she was in a state of complete misery for reasons I could not understand. She wouldn't look at me and it was like pulling teeth for her to be civil.

The whole time we were together she was telling me she had a better time with her nieces and nephew than with me. everywhere I turned my wife was indirectly cutting me down and on top of that, I could see plain as day she was baiting me to react so she could play the victim card as usual. I held steady and was nice and kept in my good mood not letting her affect me.

So we arrive back at her place and before I shut the car off, my wife and kids are out of the car and walking into the house. I was left just sitting there which is no big deal in itself but then it hit me. She had been doing this for years and was just another form of her showing a lack of respect for me. Her neighbours were all out front and the situation made me feel crappy. Not getting upset, I come in the house and sit on the porch and notice other families coming home and walking in together and thought it was nice to see.

Anyhow, I mention to my wife that we should all walk in together. That what she is doing is making me feel terrible. Her response was to ask me where I got such a stupid idea. I explained it was nice to see other families exhibit this display of togetherness. My wife blew her top and said that's my problem, that I expect us to do what other people always do and that we are not other people. Then I calmly said that it is offensive to me and will not drive her anywhere anymore if she cannot act in a respectful manner. She said there is no way I'm going to tell her what to do and that it again is all in my head.


----------



## delta88

This is all making sense now and can see my wife's pattern of trapping me into a response that triggers her rationalization hamster. She wants to do something she knows is stupid and wrong so she does something she knows will upset me and then use my response as an excuse to do anything. Scary!

So I tell her I'm going to go home as there is no point in staying over the night when she is acting like she doesn't want me there. She starts getting teary eyed asking why do I always have to do this. I explained to her what she is doing is making me feel 2 inches tall and want to go home a lick my wounds. Her response was that I don't have to leave. No "I didn't realize I was acting this way" or "I'm just having a bad day so don't let me get to you" or maybe "don't go home" would have been nice. It never happened so I left.

I think my wife has lost her mind or something. She is not act like the woman I married. The next day she texts me like nothing happened asking my to pick up my oldest boy from school and to pay her phone bill and make the loan consolidation payment once again. WTF I thought. No way am I giving her another penny. She has all these people sponging off of her and she is maxed out all her credit cards again and I'm supposed to be a good boy and come running every-time with my wallet open.


----------



## delta88

Now her take on it if I can get the help I need we can be happy once again. My counsellor is telling me that I will be in another relationship and seems to have a good idea of what he is talking about. That my wife is having issues not me.

My wife told me her counsellor told her to break all contact with me to stop my abusive behaviour. I found it interesting that my wife feels like she is smarter than her counsellor and has her all figured out. My wife's take on this is that her counsellor told her not to be with me any longer and she is her own decision in still allowing me in her life. And that I should do the same with my counsellor, to take what he is saying with a grain of salt and use my own brain to make my decisions. I thought to myself is she actually saying this to me?


----------



## Lostinthought61

Wow talk about a hallmark moment Delta.....explain to me again what your getting out of this relationship? Because i have to be honest with you, you have the patience of a saint i would have left her in the dust long ago, kids or no kids....she is a wrecking ball.


----------



## delta88

So I communicated to my wife that her leaving and taking the kids, trying to have a affair, going to strip clubs and bars, her drinking, her push-pull pattern is killing me. That her actions are coming at my expense and that she has to make a choice to put me above her family and friends. I will not be moving on this either, period.

Her response was to tell me that I need help and that this is why she left me in the first place. That when I act like this it confirms her decision to leave me was right. Talk about a kick in the nuts. She could care less and wants me to continue the unhealthy cycle for ever so she is free to do as she pleases.

I gave her a week to decide and I"m walking away from my marriage and will never be part of her life again. If she comes around I will let her decide to correct her behaviour but then will drop the polygraph test on her. I will not be in a marriage where my wife lied and cheated on me under any circumstance.


----------



## delta88

Xenote said:


> Wow talk about a hallmark moment Delta.....explain to me again what your getting out of this relationship? Because i have to be honest with you, you have the patience of a saint i would have left her in the dust long ago, kids or no kids....she is a wrecking ball.


Thanks for the response Xenote. What is going to happen is a divorce. I'm sure that I come with my own set of problems and am far from perfect but I now know that I need my wife to behave like she is married for us to be married. For her not to keep doing the stupid and blame me for everything. 

The big one that hurts the most is that she could care less how her actions are hurting me. She knows this too but refuses to let herself become responsible for her own bad decisions. In her mind I'm blowing it and losing a good woman in the process. Scary!!!


----------



## delta88

It should be noted that I've been hitting the weights and sport a new hairstyle, a fohawk actually. Now when I go grocery shopping I am turning heads on the best looking women in the store. I catch them looking at my butt too...lol

Life is not in-fact over after all :grin2:


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> Her response was to tell me that I need help and that this is why she left me in the first place.


Your response should then be:

"You're right. I need help and I'm getting it. I'll be much happier once we're divorced and I can meet people who respect me. Thanks for reminding me."


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> If she comes around I will let her decide to correct her behaviour but then will drop the polygraph test on her. *I will not be in a marriage where my wife lied and cheated on me *under any circumstance.


But...but...you ARE in that marriage, and you ARE going over there and spending the night with her and you ARE continuing to communicate with her.

Do you mean it or not?


----------



## Clay2013

delta88 said:


> It should be noted that I've been hitting the weights and sport a new hairstyle, a fohawk actually. Now when I go grocery shopping I am turning heads on the best looking women in the store. I catch them looking at my butt too...lol
> 
> Life is not in-fact over after all :grin2:


Good for you  

I could never talk any sense into my xW She still to this day denys cheating on me. I honestly don't care anymore but I sure hate people rewriteing history. 

Your best to walk away and make your life a better place for you and your children will see you happy and gravitate in that direction as well. 

I kept custody of my kids. 

Clay


----------



## happyman64

Delta

The poly has become an excuse.

If you really need to know just put her in the car and do not tell her where you are going until you get there.

If she did nothing wrong she will take the test.

If she is guilty she will refuse the test.

But I truly think she is just using you now to pay the bills.

She will never grow up until she fails and falls.

You have to stop being there for her. You are her Plan B at this moment.

She needs to see you moving on and living life without her.

And mean it when you say the train has left the station.

HM


----------



## delta88

I guess deep down I didn't mean it turnera or else I would not be over to see her. My intent on the last visit was to see her in the full push cycle. I have been keeping track of her menstruation and she started ovulating a couple of days before I saw her on Sunday too...

Clay, her take on it is she did nothing but make me happy for the past 16 years and it all came at her expense. Not a second longer is this going to happen as she is living her life to make herself happy again. Where was I for this I'm not sure, but okay?

Happyman and turnera, I need your support through this next phase as I know what is going to happen. Man this really sucks but the train is leaving the station.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> I guess deep down I didn't mean it turnera or else I would not be over to see her.


Thank you.

That's what I've been waiting for you to say. To see. You can't move forward until you acknowledge your problem.



delta88 said:


> My intent on the last visit was to see her in the full push cycle. I have been keeping track of her menstruation and she started ovulating a couple of days before I saw her on Sunday too...


WTH? WHY? What could your agenda possibly be for this?



delta88 said:


> Clay, her take on it is she did nothing but make me happy for the past 16 years and it all came at her expense.


So what?

She can say anything she wants. Doesn't make it the truth.


----------



## Chaparral

Your posts still sound like someone that doesn't understand whats going on. Did you read the MMSLP book linked to below. You still sound very beta.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> So I communicated to my wife that her leaving and taking the kids, trying to have a affair, going to strip clubs and bars, her drinking, her push-pull pattern is killing me. That her actions are coming at my expense and that she has to make a choice to put me above her family and friends. I will not be moving on this either, period.
> 
> Her response was to tell me that I need help and that this is why she left me in the first place. That when I act like this it confirms her decision to leave me was right. Talk about a kick in the nuts. She could care less and wants me to continue the unhealthy cycle for ever so she is free to do as she pleases.
> 
> I gave her a week to decide and I"m walking away from my marriage and will never be part of her life again. If she comes around I will let her decide to correct her behaviour but then will drop the polygraph test on her. I will not be in a marriage where my wife lied and cheated on me under any circumstance.


So what in the hell do you think she needs another week for?? She has nothing to decide, she just told you she is done. Did you actually read what you wrote here? 

Your wife is a seriously screwed up person, and there isnt a damn thing you or anyone else can do about it.


----------



## delta88

I spoke with her about how she was raised and she wouldn't hear any of it. An alcoholic at 12 years old drinking and having sex with her brothers and cousins. Her parents were screwing anything that walked too.

I went at it from the angle of how me being moved around a lot as a kid and not having a strong male figure in my life is affecting my decision making process. Then i sort of threw in her history at which point she informed me her past has no bearing on her now and formed her idea of a healthy relationship on her own. More or less she said I am good you are the one that is all screwed up.

My goal was for her to mention to her counsellor that she had been sexually abused by her family and generally being taken advantage of by them. The weird thing is that's all she hangs around with is her family too. She has not had one friend since she moved in. Everything revolves around her family. None of them work and all have sub grade 8 educations and a huge criminal history.

She was raised on welfare and never even got a bike as a kid. It is sad actually that people put their children through hell and back. From a young age she was trained to be her family's servant but she cant even see it. 

The river runs deep...


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> she informed me her past has no bearing on her now and formed her idea of a healthy relationship on her own. More or less she said I am good you are the one that is all screwed up.


Your response should have been "Great. You're right. It's all on me. It's been nice knowing you."

And then you LEAVE.


----------



## delta88

It's like I am a stupid circus animal that comes when called and is sent away; happy later to return.


----------



## happyman64

delta88 said:


> It's like I am a stupid circus animal that comes when called and is sent away; happy later to return.


Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

The nonsense will never stop until you stop it. It has to be you.

Because your W will keep pulling the same crap for the rest of your life.

But you have to want better in life for yourself and your kids. Until then you will keep returning for the meager scraps she keeps throwing your way.

Google the term "codependence".


----------



## delta88

My counselling appointment is for 3pm today so I'm going to inquire about the healthy way to end a codependent relationship. There must be something wrong with me to not be able to sort this out. All I'm doing is raising the bar of what I'm willing to put up with.

I have to say it is very confusing to relay a thought about how my wife's actions are affecting me in a harmful manner just to get "I'm not going to battle" or "this isn't worth it" or my personal favourite "I'm not getting into this now" and "why can't you let the past go". How can she not see what she is doing or hear what I am saying?


----------



## turnera

Because she DOESN'T CARE if she sees it.

She DOESN'T WANT YOU. 

Would you stand still and let the grocery clerk tell you all about his sad life and expect you to care about him? 

That's all you are to her. Stop acting like she cares.


----------



## FormerSelf

Delta, you need to stop expecting a normal response from her...you will just walk away disappointed every time. After a while, you are just being a glutton for punishment.

Your wife has a severe personality disorder. She is a master manipulator and I GUARANTEE that when you set up boundaries and actually move on with your life that she will flip out and make you pay for "rejecting" her. But if you take that bait once again and return to her, she will still make you pay. Get out now, protect yourself, expect her to be unconscionably evil in court, and do not talk to her about anything other than business and kids. If you are unable to be civil with business stuff, then she needs to communicate to you through your lawyer.

Her whole life has been chaos and she will always seek chaos, even if it means sabotaging the best people, opportunities, and blessings in her life. 

Get away from this crazy train.


----------



## delta88

I have 2 hours of free legal advice available through work and my counsellor recommended that I take advantage of it. He also suggested that I divorce and use a service that files the paperwork for me to save on legal expenses. 

Apparently a lot of what my wife considers controlling are normal male behaviours given certain circumstances. And that she wants to basically do what she wants without me interfering or objecting even if it's wrong. During the session I asked if I could possibly be BPD and creating this whole situation myself. He suggested that there is no indication and that I am more married the the idea of my wife being the perfect wife than to the woman. That I have bent over backwards trying to make this marriage work and my wife is not going to change.

"Rip the band aide off"


----------



## delta88

I get it now


----------



## turnera

Jeez, if even your IC sees the problem, you'd better take heed.


----------



## delta88

turnera said:


> Jeez, if even your IC sees the problem, you'd better take heed.


I am turnera. My last name is reserved for a woman with the same level of integrity and I want it back now. 

My counsellor also said I was a nice guy and not using it in a sucker type of definition either. He said my next relationship will be a lot better than the one that I'm in now.


----------



## farsidejunky

delta88 said:


> I am turnera. My last name is reserved for a woman with the same level of integrity and I want it back now.
> 
> My counsellor also said I was a nice guy and not using it in a sucker type of definition either. He said my next relationship will be a lot better than the one that I'm in now.


Not if you don't learn from this one.


----------



## delta88

My wife has been telling everyone in our family that our marriage failure is 100% my fault. She is even lying to her grandma about the nature of her leaving and contact with the OM. I was falling asleep and overheard her say to her cousin that her counsellor confirmed I am a violent abuser and to stay living on her own for at least a year. In her mind EVERYTHING is my fault even when I don't know what is going on until well after it has happened.

At this point I know there is something mentally wrong with my wife. My boys are walking all over her and can now see she lacks the capacity to responsibly parent. Now she is drinking with her 16 year old niece that is in her care under CFS. They already responded to one community member's complaint against my wife and wanted her to provide a urine sample. Apparently my wife smoked marijuana with her niece too and they found out about it and were allegations of physical abuse against my wife.

I'm contacting my boys school on Monday to get their attendance and have decided to call CFS myself next time my wife is drinking and release the hounds. Her cousin, uncle, and about 3 other family members advised me to get my kids away from her or they will be stuck living an unhealthy life.

I have a legal consultation available through work and will be talking with them on Monday as well.


----------



## delta88

Please move this thread to going through a divorce.


----------



## Chaparral

Stay strong and good luck.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> My wife has been telling everyone in our family that our marriage failure is 100% my fault.


So?


----------



## delta88

turnera said:


> So?


I guess it shows her ignorance as she is rationalizing all her bad choices and passing the blame off to me. She comes out thinking she is some kind of do good crusader and had no choice in getting away from the monster she sees me as.

She did try for a bit but it always goes back to the same crap...


----------



## Uptown

delta88 said:


> At this point I know there is something mentally wrong with my wife.


Perhaps so, Delta. As Tron noted in post 179 and I observed in post 181, the behaviors you describe are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. Hence, if you've not yet done so, I would suggest you follow the links I provided to see whether the BPD red flags sound very familiar.



> My wife has been telling everyone in our family that our marriage failure is 100% my fault.... In her mind EVERYTHING is my fault even when I don't know what is going on until well after it has happened.


If your W has strong BPD traits, that behavior is exactly what you should expect. Because a BPDer has such a fragile sense of who she is, the closest thing she has to a self image is the false notion that she is "The Victim," always "The Victim." A BPDer therefore spends much time trying to validate that false self image. For this reason, her spouse is allowed to play only two roles: rescuer and perpetrator. Significantly, both of those roles validate her role of being the victim. Sadly, your "rescuer" days largely ended when you got married. Hence, except for rare occasions, she will tolerate your presence only as long as you continue walking on eggshells, taking the blame for every misfortune that befalls her. This is why a BPDer typically perceives her H, most of the time, as "The Perpetrator."


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> I guess it shows her ignorance as she is rationalizing all her bad choices and passing the blame off to me. She comes out thinking she is some kind of do good crusader and had no choice in getting away from the monster she sees me as.
> 
> She did try for a bit but it always goes back to the same crap...


Again, so?


----------



## delta88

I get what you are saying turnera, who gives a rats ass how she sees what is happening.

Thanks for your post too uptown. Scary thing is I'm seeing my wife act like she never has the whole time we were together. Maybe it was always there but I was blind to it. 

My mother committed to help with being here for the boys and the 30+ hours of OT a week has dried up too. Everything is falling into place.


----------



## happyman64

Delta

Protect your kids. That is your primary responsibility.

I also agree that you should release the hounds.

The next step is to make official your wife status as your Ex.

Only then will she be forced to get the professional help she so clearly needs.

HM


----------



## delta88

She withdrew the consolidation payment and the mortgage payment from our/my overdraft and hung up on me when I called about it.

Anyhow, I pulled the available out of the account and will close it out tomorrow. She called right back after I did some bank moving. What kind of crap is that?


----------



## delta88

And I went down to my boy's school today too and voiced my concerns to the VP. Apparently the school was told by my wife that we were all living in the same address. I requested all documents be copied and sent to me and gave them my actual address and phone number.


----------



## delta88

I also received a copy of all my son's absenteeism's. There are a considerable amount of classes missed and for bogus reasons. Like 15 days in three months...


----------



## Uptown

Delta, regardless of whether your W actually has a full-blown personality disorder, you are describing high-conflict behavior that is likely to get much worse during a divorce. I therefore suggest you take a look at the following online resources that give advice on dealing with high-conflict spouses during the divorce process:

Divorce Tips for Fathers

What Therapists Don't Tell You About Divorcing A High-Conflict Personality

Are the Children of a BPD Parent Likely to Suffer Emotional Abuse?

Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with BPD 

Leaving a Partner with BPD


----------



## OldWolf57

FILE THE DAMN PAPERS !!!

As long as there is no filing you are on the hook for all her debts.

I read this whole thread, and all I see is you dragging your feet, to hold on to a child abusing cheating alcoholic. 
Do you care anything for your sons at all? Or is they just an excuse to keep this sick person in your life?

I bla bla bla, she bla bla bla, we bla bla bla.

I'm just surprised Turnera and some others haven't tore you a new one.

Here these kids are, missing school, around drugs and witnessing all this garbage, and all you worried about is "why can't she see what she is doing to you".

CPS are already on her, so pile the hell on and bring those kids home !!!

Good Lord, these kids are seeing all this and your only concern is your next relationship.
YO CLUE !!! Why don't you take your kids to your next session, or at least MENTION to your counselor that kids are involved.


----------



## delta88

My counselor knows kids are involved. He explained three scenarios that are best for the boys. The first and most beneficial was two parents living under the same roof working together with a functional relationship. Next was two parents not together but working in the best interest of the kids. Last and by far the worse was parents living together in a dysfunctional relationship exposing the children to unnecessary stress. I get door number two... 

But before throwing in the towel I went to a marriage counseling intake session through my wife's work referral. The counselor spoke directly to my wife only and we were told she has only 10-12 sessions to fix this? She was a complete diva too and was parked behind us in a Mercedes; no wedding ring either. From what I saw I got a bad vibe from the whole experience and what was probably to follow. My counselor made me feel comfortable and said he has seen couples live happy lives after successful marriage-counseling. It gave me hope.

Later that evening, my wife tells me that she doesn't want another person in the middle of our relationship. Her take on it was summed up as no outsider will understand our relationship or the love we have for each other. I was apprehensive about the appointment anyhow so I agreed with her about maybe rethinking that particular counselor. She doesn't think we should let anyone in and can fix this on our own.


----------



## delta88

Now I asked her to let the kids come live with me and go to school in our town. She is coming around and has agreed to a half-and-half type of deal and I will have them back home and in school by fall. 

The finances are separate now too as I went in and paid off our overdraft and closed our joint account. She was pissed about that one but it was her former co-workers at the branch that recommended I close the account and close out all other small accounts my wife opened that could be used to apply for more joint-account credit. Great service! Our vehicles insurance policy have all been switched over now.


----------



## delta88

Thanks turnera. The interim plan was to move her niece to independent living before fall but doubt that will happen. My wife was investigated by cfs with regards to threatening her niece's boyfriend but was cleared from what I understand.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I'm glad to see you have separated out your money, but cannot for the life of me understand why you are so bent on counseling with this woman. She does not respect you and does not love you. Her actions have made it clear she doesn't want to be with you and is all about herself. Tear off the bandaid and be done.


----------



## OldWolf57

There are thousands of single parent healthy families in this country, so sell it somewhere else.

You don't give a damn about those kids or their welfare, or YOU would have called CPS the first time you witness drug and alcohol use;
I bet you have a smart phone, so don't tell me you are not smart enough to go over there and secretly film drugging and drinking by them.
AND when someone say that may be illegal, you say it's for CPS not for a trial. If they was my kids, nothing would be keeping me from burning her at the stake to get them home.
Of course her having them means you get to go there and spend time making sad eyes at her, hoping she will smile your way.
A grown man selling out his kids for crumbs from an abusive cheater.
Do you want to know why she don't want a third party in this???
She's afraid they might actually call you out for putting up with this sht.


----------



## delta88

OldWolf57 said:


> Of course her having them means you get to go there and spend time making sad eyes at her, hoping she will smile your way.


Nope, not even close but still I appreciate your post. Actually my plan is working fine and my wife will hand the kids over to me without a fight when I'm done. I'm about to enter the show her who's boss phase.


----------



## farsidejunky

delta88 said:


> Nope, not even close but still I appreciate your post. Actually my plan is working fine and my wife will hand the kids over to me without a fight when I'm done. I'm about to enter the show her who's boss phase.


How exactly will you implement that?


----------



## OldWolf57

I did get a laugh from your post, but you see, it's still all about her.
Your whole focus is getting her back.
Yo, a lil clue, make it about your kids and she will come running as YOU ignore her.


----------



## Decorum

delta88 said:


> Nope, not even close but still I appreciate your post. Actually my plan is working fine and my wife will hand the kids over to me without a fight when I'm done. I'm about to enter the show her who's boss phase.


Chill, everything is going according to plan.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again. No option for MC and reconcile.


Sorry if I missed it in the 16 pages, but why are you trying to reconcile? Has this opinion changed or do you feel she really didn't screw around on Romper Room nights? If the former, good luck to you. If the latter, you are in serious denial.

But hey. That's cool. Evolution built denial into us for a reason. Seems to be working here. Good luck to you sir.


----------



## delta88

I seem to go into periods of denial for some stupid reason. There is no real excuse for it either other than I must have a serious lack of respect for myself. My counselor has tried to get me to see the light but I keep getting sucked back in.


----------



## WorkingWife

delta88 said:


> She was basically tickle truthing me on what happened that night at the bar. After I pressed the questions, she said I should ask the bartender what she was doing if I didn't believe her.
> 
> Why should I have to ask the bartender (female of course according to wife) what she was doing?
> 
> Not sure she would have ever told me if I didn't catch her walking in the door either. It's like I don't even know who she is anymore as weird as it is to say


Something is very wrong with your wife. She is gaslighting you when she tries to redirect focus from her bizarre, irresponsible, unconscionable behavior to "how you react."

She knows she can cry and act remorseful and that will also distract you.

She says she wants a "normal" husband? HUH? A "normal" husband does not have a wife who leaves the house in the middle of the night without saying anything. That is beyond bizarre behavior. I can't begin to wrap my head around that.

You have children. If it's normal and acceptable for a spouse to take off in the middle of the night without saying anything, what would happen if you both picked the same night to go out and sit on a bar stool all night then pass out in your car?

BTW - I don't believe her about the innocence of the night, sitting alone, being with just girls, and passing out in her car 'till 5:00 AM. That does NOT ring true, and the trickle truth shows she is making her story up as she goes, seeing what you will buy and unable to remember what she said earlier...

She may or may not be having an "affair" with an affair partner, but I'd bet my next paycheck she is either sleeping around or open to the idea.

I'm really sorry. I'd snoop for an affair and start separating money and I'd be stealthy about it until everything is in place. The 180 sounds smart too.


----------



## delta88

As for the boss routine:
Yesterday she asked me to make the loan payment again after I told her it is her responsibility to meet her prior obligations. Her take on it is I have all kinds of money and she has none with racked up credit so I should pay. Now that she has no money and is maxed out, I looked her in the eye and asked her what she is going to do to pay her debt and still have money to live. Then I asked her if her if she can now understand my position on living within our earnings.

Then I told her in a calm voice that if I keep bailing her out that she will never learn. That she needs to trim the fat and apply what she's not spending to her debt. After this I explained that she is not cut out to manage our household finances plain and simple. There have been two consolidations and she's working on the third and she still won't use common sense. This part didn't go over well with the do-no-wrong diva. 

She has given me needed and helpful direction in the past but she seems unable to reciprocate. Not my problem anymore. She can do whatever the hell she likes with whoever.


----------



## delta88

Thanks for not being overly critical Workingwife, I appreciate your perspective. And to the others that have been so kind to post, I'm now prepared to scuttle the marriage.


----------



## delta88

As a father I have some worries about putting the kids in the position of deciding if they'd want to come home without mom. Sort of like I'd be making my kids decide between their father or mother. I don't want my sons to be without their mother.


----------



## turnera

Who says they have to be? It just won't be in the way they're used to. Plus, having two households will let them see the 'healthy' one with you, so that when they're with her, they can see the dysfunction for what it is, so that when they grow up, they'll gravitate toward a healthy relationship for themselves. If all they see is dysfunction (if you stayed together), guess what kind of partner they'd get?


----------



## delta88

Alright, I spoke with my oldest boy tonight and he wants to come home. I told him he will be in school for fall and what I can offer as a father and a man. 

For my wife, she told me that she wants out and will be seeing a lawyer. Okay I thought, you can't meet your financial obligations but can afford to pay a lawyer. Her take on it is why am I so unwilling to help her when she needs it. My take is she is taking advantage of me. Who's right doesn't really matter.

I gave her two options, first one being I will buy her out for the house, no questions asked, if she gives me full custody of the kids. The second option was that I will drag this out with lawyers and she will get nothing and still probably loose the kids in the process. At this point there is no room for negotiation. Unless I get my kids back all hell is going to break loose and will dump all my resources to get them home.


----------



## delta88

I have been invited to a colleagues bbq on Saturday and wasn't going to go given the situation and feeling stupid being Hans Solo. His son is getting married and they are having a hog roast. I'm going to take my boys now that I think about it.


----------



## delta88

Turnera: I see how the cycle can repeat. To be honest, when she said she was going to see a lawyer I caved and thought lets stop and think of what we are about to do. My wife is playing me plain and simple.


----------



## happyman64

Delta

She is playing you.

Stop bailing her out.

Work with an attorney to ensure your wife cannot rack up anymore "joint" debt and secure kids future.

You do not have to scuttle the marriage but you can try to end it amicably.

Turn the tables on her and take back control.

HM


----------



## TheGoodGuy

delta88 said:


> Her regular requests to move far away have been fairly consistent as well.
> 
> Thank you all for taking the time to read and post on my thread. If there were somewhere else I could turn you would have never heard my story.
> 
> Delta


My word, this sounds so much like my ex. I haven't made it through the entire thread yet but I hope this turns out the way I think it will.

ETA: I'm caught up now. It looks like it's going the way I thought, but not quickly enough. Delta, you've got to get this toxic woman out of your life. I'm triggering badly right now just reading the things you're going through. Get your kids out of there. She's smoking pot with a minor while your kids are their at her apartment? WTF


----------



## WorkingWife

delta88 said:


> Thanks for not being overly critical Workingwife, I appreciate your perspective. And to the others that have been so kind to post, I'm now prepared to scuttle the marriage.


Well I feel real bad for you. I feel bad for her too, but in a different way. She is self destructing. Her actions sound to me like someone trying to fill a hole in them that can't be filled.

It's a damn shame but I don't blame you one bit for getting out.


----------



## sparrow555

What a horrible woman!!


----------



## delta88

I'm back and wanted to post an update for everyone who commented or read my thread.


----------



## turnera

Uh, that's not an update...

lol


----------



## delta88

The kids and wife have been back home for the lase couple of months. Both the boys like being at home and are doing very well in school. I wish I could say things have been rosy between me and the Mrs but there has been some rough spots along the way. After all this it would seem that her attempted cheating and actions leading up to the last separation have been forgotten, yet I can't seem to move past everything so quickly. The whole situation has made me feel powerless to put a word to it. She says I like living in the past and the only way we can continue is not to look back. But feel that we have yet to resolve anything and no resolution means possible future re-occurrences. Her take on it is if she really wanted to cheat she would have and if she did cheat, why would she even bother coming back.

Crappy thing is she says she says she feels like she is always walking on egg shells. I feel like I'm grasping at sanity trying to get her to hear me. Really, she could probably say and feel the same thing and it doesn't make a bit of difference.


----------



## delta88

Good to hear from you tunera, i mean turnera :grin2:


----------



## turnera

No offense, but what did you expect? Nothing has changed. You never found that backbone you were supposed to be looking for.


----------



## delta88

I feel like it really is all my fault and this isn't pity related either. On one hand I want my wife to treat me like a friend but on the other, I don't feel that I am going about it the right way. For some reason I cant get her to see what I am seeing.

Whenever I get close to a level of communication all I get is "I'm not doing this anymore" routine. It took a strong affirmation from me that I was not being abusive to get her to stop telling everyone that I was an abuser. She was telling anyone who would listen that her counselor had confirmed my abuse. I asked her recently if she might perceive me as being abusive instead of this actually taking place. No resolution here either, just more of why are you living in the past routine.


----------



## farsidejunky

Why are you still allowing this?


----------



## delta88

I'm not sure...


----------



## farsidejunky

People frequently only change when the the thought of remaining the same becomes more painful than the thought of changing.

You clearly have a high pain threshold or a low value of self.

Or both.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> For some reason I cant get her to see what I am seeing.


delta, I know you aren't stupid. But you've been coming here and getting advice after advice after advice to MAN UP and act like a man, not a doormat.

Yet you do NOTHING to change.

Frankly, you're getting what you deserve, at this point.


----------



## delta88

I saw the guy my wife wanted to cheat with the other day so i triggered about the whole situation. No excuses here but I can't really explain all the questions that ran through my brain and I confronted her. My whole problem is about her not being honest with me and me basically finding out about it myself first. Too me, if she came to me and said she contacted or tried to contact another man it would carry some weight. But me busting her, NFW.

Secondly, she says I would not let her get a Facebook account. Either of us had one and didn't know she created one under her maiden name until well after the damage was done. So when I asked what the reason she contacted my buddy on a Facebook account I knew nothing about she explains that she will tell me when I inform her which one of her friends gave me the information.

She still denies saying what I have her saying on the recording.


----------



## turnera

Your whole problem is you don't know how to react like a man, you are reacting like her child or her dog.

What are you doing about THAT?


----------



## delta88

indifference?


----------



## turnera

If you were indifferent, you wouldn't be back here whining about how badly she's treating you. 

Again.


----------



## naiveonedave

delta88 said:


> I saw the guy my wife wanted to cheat with the other day so i triggered about the whole situation. No excuses here but I can't really explain all the questions that ran through my brain and I confronted her. My whole problem is about her not being honest with me and me basically finding out about it myself first. Too me, if she came to me and said she contacted or tried to contact another man it would carry some weight. But me busting her, NFW.
> 
> Secondly, she says I would not let her get a Facebook account. Either of us had one and didn't know she created one under her maiden name until well after the damage was done. So when I asked what the reason she contacted my buddy on a Facebook account I knew nothing about she explains that she will tell me when I inform her which one of her friends gave me the information.
> 
> She still denies saying what I have her saying on the recording.


You tell her that she doesn't get to know how you know things and that you know that she is a liar. Then you need to decide if you can be married to a liar or not. Take action and don't accept blame or gas lighting (aka be a man).


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## MachoMcCoy

So glad you two kids are back together. It got me all choked up. So much so that I put together a little montage to help you celebrate.




delta88 said:


> I awoke about 5:30am ...As I walked to the living room, the front door suddenly opened and my wife walked through the door with her coat on and everything.
> 
> We have been down this road before too where she takes off and gives me her version of what happened while she was gone.
> 
> Then she flipped completely and said she doesn’t tell me things like this because of how weird I get. How did a stupid detail like this cause such an emotional reaction in my wife? If it were her asking me I would care less???





delta88 said:


> I can interact with my wife one the phone at her cubicle but she doesn't have much to do with me in our home life.





delta88 said:


> ...I went to get her at 1am. She actually walked away from me in our family car while I was calling her name. She and her friends were laughing at me while they walked away saying things like "is that my husband" or "no, that's my husband. Actually, she pretended not to know who I was when I asked her to come home and I was crushed.
> 
> I came home from work and fed my kids and waited for my wife to come back. She went directly from work to her friends to drink and then to a Halloween party at the bar.





delta88 said:


> We actually spoke for 4 hours on a Friday while she was moved out and finished our conversation with how much we loved each other. How we are going to work it out. I found out that she went to a party and left our kids with her roommate that same night. Then the next day she went to finance furniture. She wouldn't get back to me for the rest of the weekend. Apparently she went to a family members out of town and drank Saturday night too and slept over until Sunday. She didn't contact me again until Monday. No texts no nothing.





delta88 said:


> ... informed me she was moving in with her cousin and her brothers new wife. BIL is in prison for murder and he and his 18 yo wife had a baby out of conjugal visits. How she had already committed to renting a house with them so there was no turning back. Both have no credit and would be unable to rent a house without my wife's signature.
> 
> It ended up that she had become the parent, cooking and clean for her SIL, cousin and his three kids and what she envisioned didn't come to be. Again she decided to move back home with the kids just in time for the new school year.





delta88 said:


> I just heard audio of my wife telling her friends she is planning on having sex with a guy on our block, and that it would really mess me up.
> 
> STUNNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





delta88 said:


> She says she already looked the guy up and he is fling material. My hands are shaking so bad right now...





delta88 said:


> I'm not taking all this very well. My house is empty and all I have is the cat. According to the recording, she is going to leave me with nothing and will take the cat and whatever else she forgot.





delta88 said:


> It was sad to see she cannot be honest even if she tries.





delta88 said:


> My gut it dinging away about her lying about not drinking. Now I find out she is going to bars while I have the boys on weekends.





delta88 said:


> When I asked my wife if she had sex with another man while she was at the bar she brandished a huge smile and said no. why the smile?





delta88 said:


> Her response was to tell me that I need help and that this is why she left me in the first place. That when I act like this it confirms her decision to leave me was right. Talk about a kick in the nuts. She could care less and wants me to continue the unhealthy cycle for ever so she is free to do as she pleases.





delta88 said:


> It's like I am a stupid circus animal that comes when called and is sent away; happy later to return.





delta88 said:


> There must be something wrong with me to not be able to sort this out. All I'm doing is raising the bar of what I'm willing to put up with.





delta88 said:


> Now she is drinking with her 16 year old niece that is in her care under CFS. They already responded to one community member's complaint against my wife and wanted her to provide a urine sample. Apparently my wife smoked marijuana with her niece too and they found out about it and were allegations of physical abuse against my wife.


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## deg20

...because your wife and my ex are so unremarkably similar, your story and account, all 18 pages, makes me feel secure in the knowledge that my ex wife is no longer in my life. Sadly, you are about to repeat and encounter all of these feelings yet again, and continue to feel miserable, and continue to be cheated on. I am not scolding you, ... I actually feel sympathy for you. 

My wife drank and flirted, and partied without me too. Kissed my friends on the lips when she met them, disrespected me at gatherings and ignored/avoided me at these functions, and at home. All throughout my marriage. She blame shifted, lied, took no responsibility, had issues from childhood, a former abusive husband, no discipline for her kids ( my step kids ), and trickle-truthed her way through our marriage.

When she left, she really went nuts ( probably while married to me too, but like you, I was blind to it, 'cause I trusted her ). She had sex with everyone and anyone, with women, my friends, threesomes, married men, married men in threesomes with their wives, her student roommate that rented a room from her, bragged and showed me vids of the guys she was screwing, took money from her school lunch program, drank regularly, showed up at my apartment for sex and then left, borrowed money from me, offered sex for my money, used me, played me...for 9 months after our separation... and on and on...it was hell, and I'm still damaged from this deep down I think, in some way.

I just want to say that I truly hoped your story would end with you and her divorcing. If anything, it woke me up and I realize how grateful I am that she left me. I took a buyout and she has the house...financially strapped with credit cards maxed ( nothing new ), but luckily we had joint accounts from the start...minimal mess...her idea...this was a flag too that I didn't see, that is her keeping a separate lifestyle even while married...

Your wife, like mine, is broken. People on this site saw me through this, along with counselling, and made me see how toxic she was/is. I wish this happened to you...but I do hope the best for you...but please be prepared for more heartache and eggshell walking and paranoia/doubts about everything she does. Who is she texting? Where was she? where is she? Who is she calling...

I am glad my ex is gone. Your story, and I read every post, solidifies this for me...

If you ever want to chat, P.M. me...I'm around...


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## phillybeffandswiss

delta88 said:


> I saw the guy my wife wanted to cheat with


Well, I'll be back in another 4-5 months. I was hoping to see ex. Yes, there are some stories on TAM where I want a marriage to fail. There aren't many, but the limbo you CHOOSE to live in is extremely depressing to me and I do not know you.

Sorry, had to be blunt. You spend to much effort chasing this <insert favorite insult yourself> down.


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## jerry123

delta88 said:


> Alright, I spoke with my oldest boy tonight and he wants to come home. I told him he will be in school for fall and what I can offer as a father and a man.
> 
> For my wife, she told me that she wants out and will be seeing a lawyer. Okay I thought, you can't meet your financial obligations but can afford to pay a lawyer. Her take on it is why am I so unwilling to help her when she needs it. My take is she is taking advantage of me. Who's right doesn't really matter.
> 
> I gave her two options, first one being I will buy her out for the house, no questions asked, if she gives me full custody of the kids. The second option was that I will drag this out with lawyers and she will get nothing and still probably loose the kids in the process. At this point there is no room for negotiation. Unless I get my kids back all hell is going to break loose and will dump all my resources to get them home.





The last paragraph was perfect, if you went on with it. But sadly it looks like you gave her an option (3)...move back together and rug sweep all that she did with her telling you to "stop living on the last" speech. 


And even back in July you said she was playing you. 

I get it that you want the kids to be happy and healthy but YOU need to be happy and healthy first. They (kids) won't be until you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy

I am a believer in staying together for the family. My wife fell out of love with me. Period. She doesn't cheat. She doesn't drink. She is home or at work. We talk. We laugh. We spend time together. I love her like I wold love a room mate. My forever partner in MachoMcCoy and Family. I made a commitment to her and our kids that i would keep the family together. We are a happy family. Would I love to be sexually ravaged by a woman who desires me? Would I love to be needed by a woman who worships me? Od course. But I'm not going to ruin 4 other lives just because I'm not loved. Boo freakin' Hoo. Poor me.

You are not. You are staying in an abusive relationship. You are doing it in front of your kids. They are learning from that. What's going to happen on her next bender? The next time she rolls in drunk and sexually satisfied at 5:30 in the morning and your kids see THAT fight? What do you tell your kids when she doesn't come home? You're going to deal with it again when she moves out and has the kids visiting a druggie flop house again?

And you haven't even BEGUN to start even THINKING about all of the men she's partied with. You can put your own spin on that "men she's partied with" line and even the most INNOCENT interpretation is pretty bad. For ME anyhow. I don't want my wife out hustling drinks from men all night at meat markets. You SOOOO remind me of my best friend who was married to a party w*0re for 20 years and hasn't even thought about how she never spent a dime on all of her nights out drinking.

But I guess it's "all in the past". Until it's suddenly not again. Until it is VERY MUCH in your present again. 

Good luck to you.


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## delta88

I suffer from a terrible self image, always have. People always tell me I'm very hard on myself and have a natural tendency to punish myself unnecessarily for being less than perfect. 

My life has ended up in a place where I get bothered by the little things but this is a more of a pick my battles ideal because I know my core needs will never be met. Now that I think about it, this is very childish behaviour. What needs to happen is what I fear the most and is probably why I keep holding out before pulling the plug. That slim chance she has been true to me and this is all a communication issue between us. In actuality she has already been disrespectful and dishonest and don't need the penetration part to sort this out. 

Having a conversation last night with a co-worker about his past marriage issues brought up meeting our wives emotional needs. I caught myself asking him how to meet this need to make my marriage more bullet-proof. Hearing myself ask made me think meeting her emotional needs will be impossible with an unwilling partner.

Thanks for all your posts


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## LongWalk

Your wife is mess. What is the point of staying married to her?


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## delta88

Macho,
I too have fantasized about being with other women that have shown sexual interest in me but being in a marriage rules that stuff out. That was a marriage ground-rule of both of us. If either of us wanted to be with someone else we would end the relationship first and then explore our options. It would appear my wife was exploring her options while still fully married.

Glad I don't have to think about making those type of decisions on my death-bed


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## delta88

LongWalk said:


> Your wife is mess. What is the point of staying married to her?


My point in staying with her is the times we lay together watching a movie and genuinely enjoy each-others company. Free from expectations and resentment these moments are golden and really do love this woman more than I can put into words. Yes, I know, a sucker.


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## turnera

delta88 said:


> I suffer from a terrible self image, always have. People always tell me I'm very hard on myself and have a natural tendency to punish myself unnecessarily for being less than perfect.


So what are you doing about it?


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## imjustwatching

This is pathetic...


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## turnera

delta88 said:


> My point in staying with her is the times we lay together watching a movie and genuinely enjoy each-others company. Free from expectations and resentment these moments are golden


You can get a dog for that. And be happier. And have a CHANCE at teaching your children not to be doormats or abuse victims. Stay with her, and you are practically ENSURING your children will be miserable their whole lives. Just because YOU are weak.


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## delta88

What's going to happen now is I will tell my wife how I feel and she will respond to everything with "me too" answers. When I say that I'm miserable she will say so am I. When I say she doesn't respect me she will say she is not respected either. This is incredibly frustrating. She has her personal ill feelings about our marriage and occupies all of mine simultaneously.


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## turnera

Real men don't tell their wives how they feel they're being hurt. They take ACTION.


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## delta88

My financials are still separate thank god. She went into tears a while back telling me how our accounts should be together if we are. Something told me keep it this way.

Pathetic yes, but don't count me out just yet.


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## turnera

So you're kicking her out?


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## delta88

Thanks turnera, my parents divorced when I was three. Other than seeing my grandfather and uncles once a year if lucky, I had no real male influence. It was mostly my mother, my sister, and myself.


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## delta88

I can't kick her out; it's her house too. I know her and she is going to ask me to leave but I've stayed in the house for two move out separations and one mini so nope to that.


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## Spitfire

Are you in individual counseling? Sounds like you have a lot of issues that won't allow you to separate from this beast.


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## delta88

Spitfire said:


> Are you in individual counseling? Sounds like you have a lot of issues that won't allow you to separate from this beast.


I was in IC but stopped going.


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## turnera

Of course you stopped. Had you been going, your IC would never have allowed you to let her come back. Because everyone in the WORLD besides you knows it was the wrong thing to do.

There is only ONE way you will EVER be happy: by going back to IC. Why? Because your IC will work with you to learn how to love yourself, value yourself, and see yourself as just as important as her. 

And IF you do that, one of two things will happen. You'll become an alpha man who won't take her sh*t and once you do that, either she will respond to it and like it and start admiring and respecting you and the problems will go away...

or else you will see that you deserve better than her and you will divorce her.

Either way you will be happier.

GO BACK TO THERAPY.


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## NotLikeYou

I know that just about everyone on TAM who reads my occasional posts is consumed with envy afterwards. They sense, without really knowing, that my life is a double scoop of awesomeness, drizzled with excellence, with whipped cream and joy sprinkled on top.

delta, Ima share a secret with you, and you alone.

The truth of the matter is that, once every few months or so, I have a day or two that are only 'fantastic.' Interestingly, those days are usually Tuesdays, where you'd expect them to be Mondays. Nevermind.

The point I'm trying to make here, is that, you, delta88, are in a bad spot. You are living a life of fear and shame, and you should change it. Because fear and shame are bad. Except if you're living in an orphanage, where they are actually important survival mechanisms. But you are not living in an orphanage. Although one could draw parallels between your loveless marriage and the nagging doubts and self loathing experienced by many orphans. Which you are not one of.

I can see 3 simple things you need to do to start salvaging your life, and keep it from sinking like a boat at sea that has broken in half in a storm caused by the lashing tentacles of a huge squid that shouldn't even be on the surface of the ocean.

Numero One-o: Go ahead and move out of the house. Staying in the house is staying in the 'fight,'which is unfortunately not just the correct word to describe your marriage, but also a battle you lost some time ago. Very few turf wars are worth losing yourself over, and a house isn't one of them.

I know. You've 'stayed in the house for two move out separations and one mini so nope to that.' Unfortunately, this hasn't been a brave stand on principles. It's been a continuing excuse to stay engaged in the relationship.

Let it go. Go find somewhere else, and start being someone else.

Numero Two-o: Talk to a lawyer. Start divorce proceedings. Don't tell her where you moved to. Block her electronically. De-activate your old phone and get a new one. Close your Facebook account. Find some hobbies to eat up your spare time. Exercise. A lot. Eat healthy. Lose weight. Look better. Feel better about yourself. GO BACK TO THERAPY (h/t Turnera).

Numero Three-o: The most important, most crucial thing of all. Stop living your life like you are a helpless victim. You are NOT a victim. Right now, you are an active participant in this shambles of a life you are living. CHANGE IT.

Numero Four-o: It's a losing proposition to love a woman when she doesn't 'love you back.' As long as you keep doing that, your life will continue to suck.


You're welcome.


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## NotLikeYou

Oh my gosh! There I was, reading over old posts, and dang if I didn't offer you some advice back in March, ON THIS VERY THREAD!

I stated right off the bat that you wouldn't take it. You 'liked' the post.

Apparently because you knew my statement that you wouldn't take the advice was spot on.

Very few men are beyond redemption, but some men take their time starting down that path.

I'd wish you good luck, but if you were lucky your wife would have left you by now, since you lack the strength of character to go.

I'd wish you happiness, but the sad truth is that you ARE happy. You would have left if you weren't.

I guess I'll sign off with a quote from Leonardo da Vinci. Don't worry- it's not for you, but rather for others who read your sad tale.

'There are 3 classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see.'


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## 3Xnocharm

If you think for even one moment that this woman wasn't fvcking other men then you are seriously deluded and living with your head in the sand. She isn't sorry for anything she has done and doesn't care to make amends. She will be back out doing the same thing within 3 months. 

At least you separated your money....


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## DTR

I'm not so sure that Delta88 is not a big part of the problem. NOTLIKEYOU stated this twice "I'd wish you happiness, but the sad truth is that you ARE happy. You would have left if you weren't." He is correct!

The marriage has problems that can only be resolved if both parties admit there is a problem, and actually work together as a team to change. Part of change means being willing to make the hard choice to file for divorce and follow through if that's what it takes to wake her up. You are unwilling (not unable) to do this.

I'm not an advocate for divorce, never have been. Thankfully, and not without trials, I have been married 27 years to my only wife. I get that you want to be with her, the kids, and be "happy". You want a relationship built on mutual trust and respect, but alas you do not have that. If you think that by "just going along to get along" will carry you through this - you are wrong. You and your wife do a horrible disservice to your children. They see it all!!! They learn by watching you! How the hell do you think they are going to stand a chance at having a normal relationship once they are grown with you 2 as an example in your current state. 

Do you want a happy relationship with her? Does She want one with you? If I were a counselor to either of you this is the 1st question I'd demand to know the answer to, and yes I would demand to know the answer.
I don't know if she cheated on you or not. I do know that neither of you live in an honest relationship at all. If you both honestly can answer yes to the first question - then there is hope, but only if you both can honestly answer the next question. Are you willing to walk through hell and high water, each forget about yourselves, be HONEST with each other, learn to serve one another, and focus on the children being raised correctly? 

I'm not here to say what I think your actual next move is. Clearly you are more than willing to take what you have been getting. It's the kids that I'm most worried about at this point. They deserve better than this, and you both hold within you the power to make that happen, but only if you each get humble, get honest, grow a pair, and chart a new course. God bless you.


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## delta88

Can all of you understand that I have heard everything you said and my inability is not to insult you. I'm not in a good situation, and yes, i'm probably responsible for a lions share. Does it matter? Nope!


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## the guy

Hang in there man.....just passing through....so I hope you find your direction, cuz this shyt ain't easy.

That's why we are here.

Now I gotta go read the rest of this thread


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## delta88

The road to hell is paved with good intention. That is what I'm doing and my kids are learning everything they shouldn't. 

Anyhow, she asked me to leave the house to not uproot the kids. I have been thinking what you said about leaving too. My gut is telling me not to walk until the separation agreement is finalized. She text me saying she is taking the house and kids. I explained that she needs to retain a lawyer and the decision will be made by a judge.

Her tune changed pretty quick but I really want my boys to speak with the judge themselves. So they can voice their concerns is a battle free zone. Maybe I am not the one they want as a primary parent but I have to keep this option open to them. Can I be a mom? no, but I can be a dad and probably a not bad one at that.


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## the guy

From were I'm sitting ...you are the only dad they got so fight for them.

Phuck your old lady...she's pissed and ain't thinking about the kids...she wants to phuck you in court!

One doesn't say shyt like that unless they are think only about them selves.

Why the hell would any good mother want to take the kids from their dad?

That's messed up!


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## delta88

She is now cut off from everything $$ on my side. We live in a jurisdiction where 12 month has to pass before a divorce is allowed. She wants to count he last move out as being 8 moths ago and she can file right away. I thought to myself this isn't right; time-wise. Then I realized the sooner the better.


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## delta88

the guy said:


> From were I'm sitting ...you are the only dad they got so fight for them.
> 
> Phuck your old lady...she's pissed and ain't thinking about the kids...she wants to phuck you in court!
> 
> One doesn't say shyt like that unless they are think only about them selves.
> 
> Why the hell would any good mother want to take the kids from their dad?
> 
> That's messed up!


She said that she's never stop me from seeing my kids but she has and will do it again. I didn't even know where they lived for over a month. Now I'm going to the police station and file some form of document next time she pulls that crap.


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## delta88

I'm not eating and my sleep is a mess. I don't even drink milk anymore but I work at a milk plant.


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## turnera

None of this will matter when you get a lawyer.


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## delta88

The Sh]+ is hitting the fan. My wife asked me to make the mortgage and consolidation loan payments today as usual. She heard nothing of what I said about paying half of everything from now on. This bank is closed. Now I'm the antichrist in her eyes but that's her problem not mine.
No more soft male crap from me. I might end up alone but at least I'll be alone with my pride intact.


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## turnera

You HAVE walked this past a lawyer first, right? If not, she can bury you if you just stop paying things without documentation. Especially if YOUR name is on the mortgage.


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## happyman64

Delta

Get the lawyer in play.

You have no choice.

And as much as you love your wayward wife she is a liar and a cheater.

If you continue to be the "nice guy" she will never respect you.

She dies not love you. But for her to be a good coparent she needs to respect you.

And that you can ensure.

Show that example to your kids. I assure you they will never forget Dad being the man.

HM


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## delta88

She want us just to negotiate the terms of our legal separation, including custody. What's your take on doing this? I'm worried that she might get the better of me and having someone in my corner can only help.

I am ordering a dna paternity kit now too. After realizing my wife cannot seem to tell the truth even with trivia matters so a big one like paternity. She has been taking off on me our whole relationship and I want to cover my ass here.


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## turnera

delta, SHE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. Not any more. You have NO OBLIGATION to be nice to her or to do it her way. She destroyed your marriage and your life. It's your job to protect yourself from her - with a lawyer.

She doesn't like it? Too bad. Should have thought of that before ripping your life to shreds. Now she doesn't get your nice side.


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## delta88

That's where I am with this now turnera. The tipping point was when my wife told her her grandma's place was being used for her son to "hook up" with an involved woman. Her aunt on her dad's side and her uncle on her mom's sideactually. And everyone was to keep it on the "down low". How old are these people, Geesh, grow up time. All I could think about was the dozens if times in our marriage she took my boy or boys out there for the weekend. Pattern was fight Thursday see you later Friday type of thing.

It was like a light finally lit in my head. What in the world have I gotten myself into here.

Thanks HM too. I really appreciate everyone's support.

Delta


----------



## Decorum

Block and counter, fake and attack.

Not take a hit and swing wildly back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Hello TAM members. I wanted to explain the goings on for the last few days. My wife locked herself out of her phone trying to lock her cell phone. She had to call her cellular provider to ask them how to unlock her phone. Apparently she wanted the sim card not just the phone locked.

The morning before last I awoke to my wife on her phone before she even climbed out of bed. her body language was all weird and she was strangely contorted around her phone. Not a big deal into itself and she explained that she was checking her emails on her hotmail account. 

Then she wakes up our boys and telly my youngest boy that I decided to stay up all night again after he asks if I'm going to get up with them. I do anyhow and my wife doesn't even know. That's why they are used of it. I showed my sons how to groom themselves and like doing stupid things like brushing their hair and showing them how I do my clean up.I'm tuned right in to my sons and they are on my channel too thank god for that.

Anyhow, I kind of triggered because I felt the kids don't need to hear that i made a choice not to see them off in the morning. The reality was I was working until midnight, had to stop and get groceries for the house, and commute at least an hour after that. Waking up at 7:30 is tough when my youngest gets home for lunch at 11:30 am and my oldest boy arrives at 12 pm, my sleep gets broken up and by the end of the week I can't manage. It equates to 5 hours sleep broken up which sucks. My take on it was she should have said "dad had to work late and needs his sleep like all of us do". I guess I have unrealistic expectations.

My wife's take on the the matter is that should she have to check with me before she says something to our sons? It really felt like more of an attack on me at my at my boy's expense.


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## delta88

I text my wife asking her to google blame shifting and the reasons people behave in this manner. After her counselor informed my wife I was abusive I figured we should address my counselors thoughts. His advice was that my wife is trapping me to solicit a expected response so she can do as she pleases.

All I get now is "I'm not getting into this anymore" and that this is "my problem for not being able to let the past go and making such a big deal of nothing". It doesn't matter how small the or insignificant the issue she will go to war. 

Then I realized her mother raised her raised her the same way. Do something I like and I will show you love but do the opposite be ready to burn. My life has become some sort or weird effort to please my wife so she will show me love. I figure love should always be there always unconditionally and my wife is just responding favorably to behaviour she likes. This is all wrong.


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## delta88

My wife wont even meet me for lunch because she will go on a strange tangent about how the kids are doing without. Funny thing is I can call her and she will be at the same restaurant by herself we were at and show no guilt. If i can somehow cook my boys lunch and satisfy her need for the kids to experience what we will together it might be fine. We were walking to lunch and she told me we can't do this to our kids while we were on the sky walk. I told her the kids are at school and have a lunch, they'll be fine.

We made the arrangements to meet before to so I threw me off. It was totally confusing. Now I'm putting it together that she thinks my place is to take care of the kids and meet her needs but is unwilling to try and meet mine. Or at least that's how I feel, used.

I made a bunch of questions for my wife to satisfy some stupid vain need for remorse that her actions are not purposeful, but they are. Now i feel numb and don't even want to ask her even though it carries importance for me. She thinks life is going to be better without me than so be it I have no real interest anymore to talk it out. She is happy with everything being my fault and I could care less.

I realize now that I will never be happy with a dishonest, deceitful, disrespectful liar of a wife. She is cut off from the money now and I'm getting the cold shoulder. She might be a good woman but she isn't any good for 
me.


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## delta88

My life is a big carpet sweep and realized my wife has been taking off on me since we were dating and she never stopped. The only thing that did change has been my tolerance levels for dealing with crap unnecessarily.

I'm realizing that my relationship with my sons is not determined by my wife and they will always love me and I will always be there for them. There is really nothing she can do to me that she hasn't done already. Kind of like the worse case has already happened so I am ready to roll the dice now.


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## delta88

The guys from my work are the best too. They have all been hugely supportive toward me offering wisdom and hear me more than my wife ever has as weird as it is to say.


----------



## delta88

And my real name is Brent; because you all deserve to know the person you're speaking with.


----------



## Chaparral

The faster you can get a divorce and things settled on the quicker you can get a new life with your sons and a better future.

Your wife has no interest in you except as a pocket book. She is who she is and that will not change.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Get off the merry go round dude. You no how terrible she is, but keep seeking her approval. You are going to stress the rest of your life doing this circular living of life.


----------



## turnera

What do you want us to say, Brent? You're probably the biggest doormat we've ever had here, you let her come back, and now you're in hell again because you let her come back.

If you are ever to do ONE right thing, let it be getting divorced.


----------



## delta88

I feel like total crap. Can you give me a second chance and help me through this?


----------



## turnera

Are you willing to separate?


----------



## delta88

Yes


----------



## turnera

So tell her to move out.


----------



## Roselyn

Brent, see your attorney to protect your rights. Divorce your wife already. After reading your posts, I'm surprised that you don't have any heart conditions yet. For your own sanity and peace of mind, be done with this marriage. You are slowly losing your mind!


----------



## Marc878

You need to find the will to pull the trigger on this. 

If you can't then it's now all on you,


----------



## delta88

She will leave turnera.; call it a hunch...


----------



## turnera

A hunch?

So basically you're being the wimp and waiting for HER to decide to move out.


----------



## JohnA

Or Brent has found an Ace up his sleeve.


----------



## cdbaker

I'm curious... did you give up on the VAR's? Do you still have them? You might consider using them again if you aren't still.

In my mind, it still all comes down to boundaries. He's long since needed to set these boundaries and enforce them, stating in advance what the consequences will be.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

QFT


----------



## delta88

I have my VAR memory full of recordings that I haven't listened to yet. Not sure it matters anymore though because she dissolved our marriage long ago by dishonoring me the way she did. As far as I'm concerned, it was a matter of choice solely on her part. 

Turnera, I will talk with her tomorrow and tell her to leave. My understanding is she will be moving out after christmas so no opposition is anticipated. She's already taken the kids birth certificates and whatever other documents to her friends. No more anger on my part.

From this point forward I have to rebuild my life and just be a dad. and come up with some scratch for a lawyer. Shouldn't take more than a week to a week-and-a-half, tops.


----------



## delta88

We had a phone consultation with a marriage counselor through my work's health plan this past weekend. The counselor asked me if I had still considered that I was still committed during our periods of separations. I said yes obviously but then she asked my wife the same question and it caught her completely off guard. She stuttered and said everthing was spinning and that all she was worried about was taking care of the kids. That and some other crap about she could never do anything or would do anything with our kids around. It was a yes or no type of question.


----------



## delta88

Sunday she asks me to pay $4000.00 for a tubal reversal and declares she wants another baby. All I was thinking is NFW! Never in a million years.

Oh yeah, the 17 year old niece that lived with my wife during the last move out is now escorting with other teenage girls. Didn't see that coming...


----------



## delta88

Then it I am informed by my wife that my youngest son is openly lying at school and is having issues owing up to his own behaviour/choices. Talk about hit me like a tonne of bricks. I took him to the local corner store to buy a slush for him and his older brother. He was walking in front of me when I saw him reach into his pocket and take out some garbage and trow it on the store floor. I asked him to pick up the garbage he just threw on the floor and he flat out tried to deny it. Three times I gave him a chance to come clean but he wouldn't. Then he only threw one of the three pieces on the floor according to his account. 

After he picked up the garbage and put it in the trash, I explained the importance of a man telling the truth at all times and that he's better than that type of behaviour. Me taking lies as truth so quickly has probably confused the boy too. All in all My sons need to understand that they should act as they will one day want to be treated themselves.


----------



## JohnA

17 year old nice who is an escort? Your wife lived with her ?

Jesus what a cesspool. What is that family dynamic and her overalls? 

Do you know how rare a 17 year old escort who has not suffered from severe CSA?


----------



## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> It was a yes or no type of question.


There was a bar I figured my wife used to tramp around in. During an unrelated conversation. It came up. "Have you ever been there"? Caught her off guard. Like you, yes or no answer. Took her about three minutes of talking to come up with "I don't think so".


----------



## delta88

JohnA said:


> 17 year old nice who is an escort? Your wife lived with her ?
> 
> Jesus what a cesspool. What is that family dynamic and her overalls?
> 
> Do you know how rare a 17 year old escort who has not suffered from severe CSA?


I figure maybe <5% might not be CSA victims. My wife was also unfortunate to have a similar background. I knew her niece was going down the wrong path and openly voiced my concern. That she should be in school and for my wife to stop enabling her. All I got is she's not my child so I'm not going to expect out of her what I do for my own children type of speech. My wife believes her niece was only able to keep it together until my wife moved back, and then the wheels fell off


----------



## bandit.45

How long do you plan on living like this?


----------



## delta88

bandit.45 said:


> How long do you plan on living like this?


 Not a second longer Bandit. Through this whole process Ive realized that my wife slowly transferred the blame for her abuse to me over the years and in her eyes, all the worlds problems will be over once I'm out of the picture.

At one point my wife was trying desperately to get her mother to acknowledge the abuse she endured growing up. An apology of some sort I guess. Anyhow, all she got was being told to never bring it up again and was completely shut down. I felt sorry for my wife because I could see what she was trying to do and how her mother maintains control over her and her other kids. 

Now I get to watch my wife regress into acting like her mom hoping to gain her acceptance in some way. Very sad to see someone you love so much come apart from the inside.


----------



## delta88

But it's all water under the bridge now. I am going to listen to all my VAR's this weekend too to see if something is there that will aid in my motivation to drop her where I found her.


----------



## turnera

Today's the day.

Did you tell her to leave yet?


----------



## bandit.45

delta88 said:


> Not a second longer Bandit. Through this whole process Ive realized that my wife slowly transferred the blame for her abuse to me over the years and in her eyes, all the worlds problems will be over once I'm out of the picture.
> 
> At one point my wife was trying desperately to get her mother to acknowledge the abuse she endured growing up. An apology of some sort I guess. Anyhow, all she got was being told to never bring it up again and was completely shut down. I felt sorry for my wife because I could see what she was trying to do and how her mother maintains control over her and her other kids.
> 
> Now I get to watch my wife regress into acting like her mom hoping to gain her acceptance in some way. Very sad to see someone you love so much come apart from the inside.


Yeah you need to get as far away from her as possible, because one day she will go off and it will be ugly...

OR...

She will piss off every person that ever loved her, burn every bridge in her life, and end up living alone with twenty cats in a stinky hovel on the edge of town.


----------



## JohnA

You had a real quick answer to question about CSA,

How long have you known about your wife's CSA ? Was it discussed earlier and I missed it?
How has the CSA effected your marriage and her other relationships?

Her reaction to the nieces arrest should scare you: niece was ok when wife was there (not), I owe her nothing. Wow for one victim to react like that to another victim shows how broken she is. This is the type of woman who becomes a madam. 

So are you higher or lower then the niece in value to her ?


----------



## delta88

When her niece live with her she was just going through the motions with our boys and very involved in her life. Like sisters or something. I'm not really sure but too me it was like two peas in a pod seeing them interact.

I found out tonight that my soon to be ex has opened her maiden named facebook page. She posted a bunch of posters about breaking away from the one who holds you back and being judged by someone who doesn't have their own life together. Another said lead me not to temptation, ah who am I kidding! FOLLOW ME I know a shortcut. I see how she's been looking up local men too. She has the town community center as a friend one could find anyone through the friend list.

She acts like this is all me and she is some kind of victim. Unreal!!


----------



## delta88

And I didn't find out about the CSA until later. All of her siblings were victims too and believe the abuse goes back at least three generations; probably more.

I am so pissed off at myself for allowing this to happen again.


----------



## delta88

Looking at my oldest boys texts, he's enjoying the additional attention his mother is giving him. Staying home from school and buying game cards. Just like the last separations. She will compensate and buy the boys whatever they want to keep them happy while she can be away and do her thing.

I spoke with my mother yesterday too and she said she will be here to watch the boys when I'm on shift work and help with the lawyer money. Her take on it is to go for custody and I agree 100%. After it is all said and done, I'm not just going to stand by and let her do what she wants. 

If she is awarded custody I will want a list of anyone who my boys are going to be in contact with and if they have a criminal history.


----------



## delta88

Another FB post says "the person who broke you cant be the one to fix you. remember that-note to self" and "don't push a loyal person to the point they don't care". WTF is she serious?


----------



## happyman64

She is not serious Delta. She is delusional.

Your wife has exhibited so many signs of a mentally damaged person it is truly sad.

Ignore her and her actions.

Focus on you and your boys. Go for custody. Get the $$$ for legal fees and move forward to D her.

Accept your Mom's offer to help.

Your W needs to be cut loose.

Focus on you and the boys. 

HM


----------



## delta88

My wife took an apartment in the city in a choice end of town for move-out separation 3. There was a small trial one before that even but it's happening again. I got the same story as last time too but she is getting better at it now. 

Now she wants me to help move her and my boys out of the house and is dangling the we can be happy carrot. Something along the lines that I have to let go and just enjoy the ride.

FAK this woman she's not my friend. Co-workers treat me better than my own wife as screwed up as it sounds to type. While I can't stop her from leaving I can stop her from coming back and the decision has been made.


----------



## delta88

no more fixing her car
no more maytag calls
no more accepting explanations for yes/no questions
no more putting everyone on this piece of dung (besides kids)before me
no more eating cheap pizza 
no more denying the people who want to be around me
no more having my actions not match my word
no more taking her back


no more no more


----------



## delta88

I want a divorce so I can pick up my life and move on. How crappy does that sound?


----------



## bandit.45

delta88 said:


> I want a divorce so I can pick up my life and move on. How crappy does that sound?


Sounds normal.


----------



## delta88

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds normal.


She will be out by January 1 2015. Can I do anything to invoke some kind of fatherly rights?


----------



## turnera

Sounds like the best thing you've ever said here. 'bout damn time.



> She will be out by January 1 2015. Can I do anything to invoke some kind of fatherly rights?


Of course you can.

It's called A LAWYER.


----------



## delta88

turnera, I told her to get out last night and staying until after Christmas is not an option. I worked nights last night and came home to her and the kids gone.

She took important stuff last night and came back today with a u-haul and her mother to pick up her remaining belongings. This separation only required a 10' unit. The look on her face as she drove away was less than welcoming. Anyhow, she's out now and I can start getting my life back together.


----------



## delta88

Lawyer is inbound. 

Moderator, please move my thread to going through a separation.


----------



## turnera

I know it hurts, but you're doing the right thing.


----------



## delta88

Saw a lawyer. All the questions prepared ahead of time were a waste of time. His position is a legal separation might be a waste of money. To sell off the house and pay off the joint debt and walk away. Then once a year has passed just file for divorce.


----------



## delta88

He said to rent a place in the city and have the kids week on week off type of deal. That way I can find a new woman and my ex can find another man. Strange to say but he made sense. My wife thinks I will take the boys on weekends so she has weekend fun time and I work and have visitation. No time to meet a new lady friend.
Things are starting to take shape now. First indications are that this process won't be that bad...


----------



## delta88

I got sucked back in when my youngest boy called and asked me to sleep over at their new place. After I responded that that a lot is going on and he should talk to his mother first.
Then my wife calls saying she wants me there too. That it should tell me this is a good thing she wants me around her new place. That she still needs me to service her and still considers herself my wife and is not interested in other men.

Yesterday I called her suggesting we go to the new star wars movie. Her response was confusing at best. She told me we are not going to go on dates as that would confuse what is happening. All her misery was right on the surface and I took the bait like a fool and got offended.

Pull push, push pull, that is what I see. Now that I look at the situation, I'm not really that bad off having her not part of my life anymore.


----------



## turnera

Your kids need you to be the strong one, to be able to say no when they play on your feelings. To validate them, but then to say this is how it has to be. THEY will benefit in the long run.


----------



## Sammy64

delta88 said:


> I got sucked back in when my youngest boy called and asked me to sleep over at their new place. After I responded that that a lot is going on and he should talk to his mother first.
> Then my wife calls saying she wants me there too. That it should tell me this is a good thing she wants me around her new place. That she still wants me to service me and she still considers herself my wife and is not interested in other men.
> 
> Yesterday I called her suggesting we go to the new star wars movie. Her response was confusing at best. She told me we are not going to go on dates as that would confuse what is happening. All her misery was right on the surface and I took the bait like a fool and got offended.
> 
> *Pull push, push pull, that is what I see. Now that I look at the situation, I'm not really that bad off having her not part of my life anymore.*


That was one of the hardest part for me, understanding that i did not need her, the BS and everything included with that woman, and that i was actually better off with out her. I see my kid all the time and from my side of the street everyone ( Myself and kid ) seem alot happier.


----------



## eric1

delta88 said:


> I got sucked back in when my youngest boy called and asked me to sleep over at their new place. After I responded that that a lot is going on and he should talk to his mother first.
> Then my wife calls saying she wants me there too. That it should tell me this is a good thing she wants me around her new place. That she still wants me to service me and she still considers herself my wife and is not interested in other men.
> 
> Yesterday I called her suggesting we go to the new star wars movie. Her response was confusing at best. She told me we are not going to go on dates as that would confuse what is happening. All her misery was right on the surface and I took the bait like a fool and got offended.
> 
> Pull push, push pull, that is what I see. Now that I look at the situation, I'm not really that bad off having her not part of my life anymore.



Use the 180, young Skywalker


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## delta88

First off I wanted to thank everyone for being so supportive. Mt lawyer told me I could petition the court to have her forced to bring the kids home. But he said that that'd take the gloves off and it isn't worth it. He recommended two boys of that age are a lot of work so let the ex swim in it for a while and she'll be happy to split living arrangements. That and they'll eat her out of house and home leading to less custody resistance.


----------



## JohnA

His suggestions seems off. First eating her out of house and home - more child support. Second keeping up with them, day care, after school activities- more child support. This lawyer sounds like a big fee with little work done. Talk to another lawyer !!

The time she lived with the niece and child services involvement the last time she moved out is a major factual red flag. As far as I know nearly every state uses best interest of the child as the primary tool for deciding custody and child support. A simple concept but with a lot of conflicting detailsl. The worth of a lawyer is not that they recite every detail. It is how well they can guide you to maximize your custody. 

KEEP LOOKING FOR A NEW LAWYER !!!


----------



## delta88

turnera said:


> Your kids need you to be the strong one, to be able to say no when they play on your feelings. To validate them, but then to say this is how it has to be. THEY will benefit in the long run.



I will not sell the house until spring and are sure the kids do not want to come back. From a dad's standpoint though, my ex can be there for them more working a day-shift job and doesn't have the commute. My shift-workers schedule would mean the boys would have less care and parent exposure. The one thing I want is for them to suffer the least in this whole ordeal. Why should they get punished for something that is out of their control?


----------



## delta88

JohnA said:


> His suggestions seems off. First eating her out of house and home - more child support. Second keeping up with them, day care, after school activities- more child support. This lawyer sounds like a big fee with little work done. Talk to another lawyer !!
> 
> The time she lived with the niece and child services involvement the last time she moved out is a major factual red flag. As far as I know nearly every state uses best interest of the child as the primary tool for deciding custody and child support. A simple concept but with a lot of conflicting detailsl. The worth of a lawyer is not that they recite every detail. It is how well they can guide you to maximize your custody.
> 
> KEEP LOOKING FOR A NEW LAWYER !!!


I thought for a while my wife must have retained him the way he was acting. The whole experience was weird if I had to put a word to it.


----------



## delta88

eric1 said:


> Use the 180, young Skywalker
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Obviously my strategy thus far hasn't be working very well Eric. I would say it is time to change things up.


----------



## turnera

delta88 said:


> I will not sell the house until spring and are sure the kids do not want to come back. From a dad's standpoint though, my ex can be there for them more working a day-shift job and doesn't have the commute. My shift-workers schedule would mean the boys would have less care and parent exposure. The one thing I want is for them to suffer the least in this whole ordeal. Why should they get punished for something that is out of their control?


No, I meant when they - or she - start asking you to go back to the way things used to be, you have to be able to look at them and say no, we can't go back to that. It's the most common thing kids do when parents split - ask them to get back together. Don't let THAT become an excuse to take her back.


----------



## delta88

turnera said:


> No, I meant when they - or she - start asking you to go back to the way things used to be, you have to be able to look at them and say no, we can't go back to that. It's the most common thing kids do when parents split - ask them to get back together. Don't let THAT become an excuse to take her back.


I know turnera. My kids won't answer texts or calls from me but on their lines but will on my wife's cell because they play app games.

In actuality, I can't tell who's calling me. Last weekend I went dark and bought a new phone for myself. She tried to call a few times on the house line and I didn't want anything to do with it. Sunday night my youngest texted me again using her phone and I was back in the mix.


----------



## delta88

She spoke with me after I talked with my boy and she asked me if I forgot about them already.


----------



## JohnA

How did you come to call him?


----------



## turnera

"I'm sorry you feel that way."
Click.


----------



## JohnA

"I will not sell the house until spring and are sure the kids do not want to come back. From a dad's standpoint though, my ex can be there for them more working a day-shift job and doesn't have the commute. My shift-workers schedule would mean the boys would have less care and parent exposure. The one thing I want is for them to suffer the least in this whole ordeal. Why should they get punished for something that is out of their control?"

What is your point ??? Your situation, at it's core, is no different then a SAHM. So again, what is your point. At some point you need to step up and deal these problems - without relaying on her. 

To clarify my last post: how did you come to call the lawyer you spoke to?


----------



## delta88

My boy called the house line. It rang through my ooma app on my new galaxy.


----------



## delta88

Sahm?


----------



## delta88

The lawyer I dealt with was through work EAP.


----------



## delta88

Both lawyers Ive dealt with cost me nothing out of pocket. The one lawyer I spoke with on the phone last July seemed to be more my fit. This last lawyer was kind of out there and didn't have any legal position on anything other than I will end up losing my shirt.

Speaking with a guy from work, he said that they can't count overtime as income and my base wage would only have to be factored. I can't seem to get correct advice from anyone.


----------



## JohnA

Stay at home mom.

Why was the first lawyer a good fit?


----------



## delta88

Because he had a different take on the division of debt and such. Overall he seemed more professional. 
Why do you feel my situation is similar to a stay at home mother?


----------



## Marc878

delta88 said:


> no more fixing her car
> no more maytag calls
> no more accepting explanations for yes/no questions
> no more putting everyone on this piece of dung (besides kids)before me
> no more eating cheap pizza
> no more denying the people who want to be around me
> no more having my actions not match my word
> no more taking her back
> 
> 
> no more no more


Actions speak louder than words. If you can actually do it a whole new world will open up for you.


----------



## delta88

I understand what you're saying Marc, I'm kind of mourning the loss right now. No excuses just kind of numb now. It's hard to explain but I can feel a shift from thinking about what or who she is around to more thinking about our relationship dissolving. 

There's no question I will be able to handle being my own captain again. My mother suggested I attend some local churches or volunteer to meet a nice woman. And no bar woman lush obviously.


----------



## delta88

This is what she texted me Monday.

'I am still married to you and am not going to be with other men. But for right now I want a friend's with benefits kind of relationship with you lol. It might sound bad to you but I just don't want to deal with a relationship and all of the expectations right now.'


----------



## farsidejunky

delta88 said:


> This is what she texted me Monday.
> 
> 'I am still married to you and am not going to be with other men. But for right now I want a friend's with benefits kind of relationship with you lol. It might sound bad to you but I just don't want to deal with a relationship and all of the expectations right now.'


"No"

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> This is what she texted me Monday.
> 
> 'I am still married to you and am not going to be with other men. But for right now I want a friend's with benefits kind of relationship with you lol. It might sound bad to you but I just don't want to deal with a relationship and all of the expectations right now.'


Gross. So she wants to continue using you like she has been for several years now. What a b!tch.


----------



## Sbrown

"You're no friend of mine, with or without benefits." End of discussion. 

Scott


----------



## delta88

I have a counseling session on Saturday and have some things I want to start working on.


----------



## tech-novelist

Sbrown said:


> "You're no friend of mine, with or without benefits." End of discussion.
> 
> Scott


QFT!


----------



## JohnA

Hi Brent,

What was the relationship history of your patents ? How do you see your experience of it and your reaction to your parents behaivor patterns influencing you. For example my father grew up in a broken home. From what I know his father was among other things a womanizer and absentee father. My dad was the polar opposite. Looking back I realize that on numerous occasion his actions were based on a grim determination not to be his father-ever. His action was based on the simple fact of doing the opposite of his father.

I have a friend who has never touched alcohol, because his father was an alcoholic and he swore as a child never to be his father In both of these examples both men made conscious decisions and kept them every day of their lives. But what about unconscious decisions? How has your inability to move forward been influenced by your past. What has struck me the deepest is your inability to stand up and fight for your sons. Why are they with her and not in the house where they belong? 

Are there other issues you have not shared ? 

Finally you are like a SAHM in your situation because all they can see why they can't do something. In their case it is the need to get a job and not be in the home full time. They overly timid because they fear losing custody - when that s never going to happen.


----------



## OldWolf57

D, tell her we are co-parents ONLY,, not friends of any kind, because friends don't do what you did to me.
If they did, we wouldn't be friends.


----------



## OldWolf57

What she is saying is that she wants to keep her hooks into you.

She figure if she can keep you drained and come and go as she wants, no woman will will be interested.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

It's an empowering feeling using what Wolf has said. "No, we aren't friends. Friends don't treat people like that."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## delta88

JohnA said:


> Hi Brent,
> 
> What was the relationship history of your patents ? How do you see your experience of it and your reaction to your parents behaivor patterns influencing you. For example my father grew up in a broken home. From what I know his father was among other things a womanizer and absentee father. My dad was the polar opposite. Looking back I realize that on numerous occasion his actions were based on a grim determination not to be his father-ever. His action was based on the simple fact of doing the opposite of his father.
> 
> I have a friend who has never touched alcohol, because his father was an alcoholic and he swore as a child never to be his father In both of these examples both men made conscious decisions and kept them every day of their lives. But what about unconscious decisions? How has your inability to move forward been influenced by your past. What has struck me the deepest is your inability to stand up and fight for your sons. Why are they with her and not in the house where they belong?
> 
> Are there other issues you have not shared ?
> 
> Finally you are like a SAHM in your situation because all they can see why they can't do something. In their case it is the need to get a job and not be in the home full time. They overly timid because they fear losing custody - when that s never going to happen.


My mother left my father when I was two and spent a better part of my youth moving us around different parts of the country to keep my father out of the picture. I fully understand that my upbringing will have an affect on my actions today as a man. But my real issue was during the last separation, my son's broke down crying begging me not to make them choose between their mother and me. The thought was very profound for my youngest boy.

They will never be taken from me and I know this with 100% certainty. But my work arrangement should not come a a cost to my children. What I'm going to do is start looking for a day shift job so I can be there more.

Also, it's my understanding that I would have to prove her unfit or their living conditions unsatisfactory.


----------



## JohnA

What state do you live in? A lot of states deceide custody and custody support are awarded based on best interest of the child. A number of factors are commonly cited: a relationship with both parents and a stable environment are the most important considerations. A good lawyer will maximize the benefit of your sons living with you in your house. Does your wife work ? If so your mother and sister's commitment to help with childcare reduces the impact of your work schedule.

Keep looking for a lawyer.


----------



## Divinely Favored

delta88 said:


> Macho,
> I too have fantasized about being with other women that have shown sexual interest in me but being in a marriage rules that stuff out. That was a marriage ground-rule of both of us. If either of us wanted to be with someone else we would end the relationship first and then explore our options. It would appear my wife was exploring her options while still fully married.
> 
> You are very nieve too believe she has not a ready tried out a few men. With the way she has been treating you and sneaking around. Its in your face but you just do not want to see it.


----------



## JohnA

Why did your mother hide you from your father? Have you ever spoken to him?


----------



## delta88

JohnA said:


> Why did your mother hide you from your father? Have you ever spoken to him?


She made him out to be a villain then proceeded to write him out of our life's script. He passed away from cancer before I understood that there is two sides to a story. The bad part was that my sister and I did without a father and a father did without his children for one person's selfish needs.


----------



## delta88

JohnA said:


> What state do you live in? A lot of states deceide custody and custody support are awarded based on best interest of the child. A number of factors are commonly cited: a relationship with both parents and a stable environment are the most important considerations. A good lawyer will maximize the benefit of your sons living with you in your house. Does your wife work ? If so your mother and sister's commitment to help with childcare reduces the impact of your work schedule.
> 
> Keep looking for a lawyer.


I had a discussion with the WW yesterday about giving her junkie sister money for drugs. After my boys birtday party(that I was not supposed to attend so I took him to wrestling after) and I watched her borrow some of his gift money to give her sister to get her fix.Then another one of her neices was staying with her. This one is from her brother and is an 18 year old that is all strung out on meth.

The gloves came off and she said that I plan on using her family as leverage to get the kids and what kind of man does that. Then she progressed into me being grouped in the same catagory as her disfunctional family. That I don't have my chit together and can't even take care of myself let alone the boys too. 

In her mind I am this monster that she believes is controlling with abus as an adgenda. What I actually am is an advocate for my family and my litmus test consists of either it is good for my us or it isn't. A revolving door of junkies that need enablers isn't going to influence our children. NFW!

I didnt marry this woman and build a life together to help a bunch of people who are CSA victims that all abuse everything they can. None of them work and all they know is how to put their hands out and expect what they don't deserve. Would I like to help yes, would I like to enable these people to slowly kill themselves, no sir. 

Where u come from its called tough love. For my WW, I'm selfish, cruel, greedy, and will end up alone and die with only my money. I won't die rich or alone actually but found the coment somewhat funny.


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## delta88

I can sum it up like this. My WW shows love to her family by doing everything they want and dawns this do gooder armor to fix the world's problems. An outside observer could easily see they are a bunch of puppies huddled around their mom all suckling with their eyes closed. Her mother does it to her mother too. It's a huge intergenerational pile of suckling pups all huddled together letting life pass them by.


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## turnera

Document document document! This should all be written down in a bound notebook, day by day. That's the kind of thing a judge will consider when it comes to kids.

And I'm proud of you!


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## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again. No option for MC and reconcile. This would prove our relationship was all deception from the beginning and she is a succubus.





Divinely Favored said:


> You are very nieve too believe she has not a ready tried out a few men. With the way she has been treating you and sneaking around. Its in your face but you just do not want to see it.


One of the most amazing cases of denial I have ever seen. If my own best friend wasn't just as bad, I'd not believe it possible.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> Document document document! This should all be written down in a bound notebook, day by day. That's the kind of thing a judge will consider when it comes to kids.
> 
> And I'm proud of you!


I was going to post this same thing! Document her taking her son's birthday money to give to someone else...seriously, how sh!tty is that?? Write out all those times that she disappeared in the middle of the night, and the times that she "moved out." Keep track of every little thing that she does so that your lawyer can get an idea of what she is really like. She is extremely unstable and her family is toxic. Those things can only help you when it comes to working out custody arrangements.


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## delta88

3Xnocharm said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> Document document document! This should all be written down in a bound notebook, day by day. That's the kind of thing a judge will consider when it comes to kids.
> 
> And I'm proud of you!
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to post this same thing! Document her taking her son's birthday money to give to someone else...seriously, how sh!tty is that?? Write out all those times that she disappeared in the middle of the night, and the times that she "moved out." Keep track of every little thing that she does so that your lawyer can get an idea of what she is really like. She is extremely unstable and her family is toxic. Those things can only help you when it comes to working out custody arrangements.
Click to expand...

That's where I'm going with this whole mess now. I listened to my var and she had planned on leaving again before she actually did and well before I did. She baited me and I responded like I always do then used it as excuse to leave.


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## RideofmyLife

Delta, 

I just finished reading your thread and I see so much of my husband in you. An all over nice guy, helps out around the house, brings me little gifts, makes me comfortable and is a good dad. But I think I'm toxic to him. You can read my gargantuan post if you want, but some have said I need to leave him. We made an awful mistake and when we tried to rectify it, it didn't improve our situation. My husbands anguish is not something that I would wish upon anyone. He ended up in a mental hospital and has had lingering anxiety and depression that will probably last the rest of his life. As well as a brand new diagnosis of bipolar. And all as a direct result of what we put ourselves through.

He would probably be better off if he divorced me, but he's said I'm his whole world and he sees himself growing old with me. Our status quo appears to be something he's willing to live with. We get along on the surface, tease, joke and even have passable sex, but he's SO unhappy deep down. And feels betrayed by his soul mate. I go along but feel detached sometimes and don't really feel a deep need to be with him. And I'm scared to be on my own. Scared what separation would mean for the kids, too.

I can understand how easy it can be to go along living in limbo with a person that you love (but don't trust) simply because you're petrified of a life without them. But fear of the unknown can lead to inertia, which can lead to stagnation, and when you are stagnating, you aren't growing, you aren't ALIVE. I hope you can find some fertile soil and sunshine soon. You and your kids deserve it. 

I wish you the best.


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## JohnA

Hi @RideofmyLife 

Stick to it, continue to learn and grow. You have taken some big hits on your thread. Stay the course, the hits will only strengthen you. There are actually some wayward spouses that have achieved a great deal of respect here. I think LosingHim is going in that direction. Here is her thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/300106-im-under-microscope.html

Delta I think the take away from Ride is you can only help people who want and able to help themselves. Protect yourself and your children first.


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## delta88

Ride, 
I can assure you that I'm not like your ex husband at all. Unless you mean your ex husband wanted you to quit your job and sell the family house to start somewhere fresh? Some where neither of you know just yet. Wait, you thought about it too long and therfore are not someone he can really talk to because of how you're set in your ways. All after watching romeo and Juliette on TV while your busy working. Then crying to you how being stuck paying off debt is stupid and you can't just "let go?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Each of these separations puts our kids through hell and costs ten grand to boot. You would think that is incentive enough to learn but it isn't . Now I realize that nothing I can provide is really going to make a difference or prove my love.


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## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> Each of these separations puts our kids through hell and costs ten grand to boot. You would think that is incentive enough to learn but it isn't .


At least you KNOW you're not learning. That's a start.

Wait...you're talking about HER, aren't you. She learned a long time ago, my friend, that she can live how she wants and you'll stick with her. 

Just keep the updates coming. I love the updates. 

And I'll bet you STILL are in denial about all of the men she's been with.


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## delta88

MachoMcCoy said:


> At least you KNOW you're not learning. That's a start.
> 
> Wait...you're talking about HER, aren't you. She learned a long time ago, my friend, that she can live how she wants and you'll stick with her.
> 
> Just keep the updates coming. I love the updates.
> 
> And I'll bet you STILL are in denial about all of the men she's been with.


Well here comes an update. The mother of my children is still miserable and so am I but can't say this is all her fault. My problem appears to be establishing healthy boundaries with the people in my life. 

She can't seem to break the pattern of finding ways to devalue me and my contribution to simply be here make her life easier. Hard to explain but it's like she just goes through the motions of life. We no longer spend time together as a family and find myself not even able to have a nap or watch a favorite TV program. Instead we watch what she wants or I sit by myself or my energy levels suck. Its a horrible place to be. Like i have to provide entertainment and take care of everone else before considering myself. 

After doing a some reading on the matter my wife is full of contempt for me and that's what I live. Instead of being a good provider she tells me I'm married to my job and that I choose to put my work first. This is not really the case but can't just walk off shift due to my tickets needed to keep the plant operational. It doesn't matter, it all ends in me not doing what I should be doing.

Pretending I don't exist and rejecting every attempt I make on personal contact. Even to go as far as step away from me if I come near or try any physical contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

What are you going to do about it?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## happyman64

Time for you to come up with a plan Delta.

I firmly believe when you have a spouse filled with animosity towards the only solution is to let them go.

She needs to be on her own, living off her own $$$, seeking her own happiness.

I also believe that a person filled with such animosity towards their spouse that they cannot of anyone else but themselves. Their rage/hate consumes them. They cannot think of their spouse or their children first.

Only themselves.

Maybe it is time to come up with a plan that focuses on you and your kids.

HM


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## turnera

Gee, funny how that works. You didn't make any changes to yourself, yet you seem surprised that she still doesn't respect or value you.


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## jerry123

She'd have more respect for you if you filed for divorce. 


You know why, if things were turned around she would have divorced you long ago. 


Im not trying to belittle you but if your a half way looking dude you'll find another woman who will want you and respects you. But not if you keep acting this way toward woman/people. They will always step all over you. 

If you're a 3/4 on the scale of 1-10 on how you look then I can see why you're staying. But man, I'd still rather be alone all my life than deal with her.

Eta: If you ever watched the show intervention, they tell the family of junkie to STOP inabling the junkie and STOP giving them money. Your wife needs to stop. If she keeps giving the junkie money you tell her you are divorcing. Period!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

Move on. You were warned and didn't listen. Neither one of you have changed so, of course, you are going down the same path.


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## delta88

What this comes down to is I can no longer accept being devalued and need a woman that can consider my needs along side their own. A woman that can give and receive love and enjoys being around me for who i am not what i can do for them. Maybe she won't bombard me with constant expectations only to be met with more demands and unhappiness.

She feels that she should be free to act cold. Always just she had a bad morning or the kids were stressing her out and that obviously perfectly acceptable. When I experience stress and react in a similar fashion, she thinks I'm abusive and I get fed to the wolves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If you don't go to therapy, you'll just end up picking another woman just like her. It's what we do.


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## delta88

She already is playing the whole reveal game. It's her leaving me and I'm not the man I once was and that the person I've become isn't who she married. Geesh, talk about the old reversal game. Same pattern everytime. 

From this point anything I bring up that I'm having issue with will be met by "me too" response which is extremely frustrating. And sending all these flowerly emails from her work email making me sound like she decided to call it quits based solely on my lack of caracter. Doesn't really matter now anyway but she's done this same thing before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> She already is playing the whole reveal game. It's her leaving me and I'm not the man I once was and that the person I've become isn't who she married. Geesh, talk about the old reversal game. Same pattern everytime.
> 
> From this point anything I bring up that I'm having issue with will be met by "me too" response which is extremely frustrating. And sending all these flowerly emails from her work email making me sound like she decided to call it quits based solely on my lack of caracter. Doesn't really matter now anyway but she's done this same thing before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So then STOP bringing up issues and file for divorce already! You have been told repeatedly here that this is what needs to be done, yet you keep sticking your head in the same damn door that keeps slamming on it. Get it over and done with and move on with your life.


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## Marc878

You gonna do anything or just complain?


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## turnera

delta88 said:


> She already is playing the whole reveal game. It's her leaving me and I'm not the man I once was and that the person I've become isn't who she married.


So what?

You know the truth.

Ignore her.


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## Lostinthought61

delta88, 

i honestly think that is your bag, you like to complain and throw pity parties for yourself, well guess what, the party is over, the guest have gone home and its time for your to turn the lights off on this marriage...because if you don't, suck it up, and don't *****. if you honestly think your wife will change your delusional, if you think she will suddenly understand your worth without divorces papers in front of her, your delusional. Give her what she wants her freedom, she will come to realize there is a price that comes with that and she may or may not one day realize your worth. Until then your delusional. Now where did you put those big boy pants...time to put them on.


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## delta88

Xenote said:


> delta88,
> 
> i honestly think that is your bag, you like to complain and throw pity parties for yourself, well guess what, the party is over, the guest have gone home and its time for your to turn the lights off on this marriage...because if you don't, suck it up, and don't *****. if you honestly think your wife will change your delusional, if you think she will suddenly understand your worth without divorces papers in front of her, your delusional. Give her what she wants her freedom, she will come to realize there is a price that comes with that and she may or may not one day realize your worth. Until then your delusional. Now where did you put those big boy pants...time to put them on.


I wish it were my bag. If it was my life wouldn't be where it is right now. She has periods where she is loving and we can enjoy each others company but keep slipping back to her man hater mode. This is the part that confuses me so much because it isn't a matter of capacity but more a matter of choice.

Something else strange I've started to notice lately. She is forgetting things like kd on the stove, where we came into a store, recalling inconsistencies that never happened. I was the one that had some of those minor tendencies but never with her. They seem to be happening more and more often now too. Even to the point of it being mentioned by her herself. She has started asking me weird things likeif I thought she was going crazy.

Today she withheld personal property threatening to sell it unless I make the loan payment. How it can be so easy to take money from someone who she has such little respect for must tear her apart inside
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Looks like the only way to get out of limbo is divorce. What's the best way to do this, don't lead on that I want out and make her think I will take her back once again then drop it right on her lap?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

I would file and have her served....remember in the end you have the option not to sign but have her served this will at least make the threat real....only than you will show her that poking a sleeping bear has its consequences. Good luck


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## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> keep slipping back to her man hater mode.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is weird. My wife's party girl wing-woman was a man-hater. That's one thing about party girls I find FASCINATING. They go out partying with strange men but in reality HATE men.


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## farsidejunky

MachoMcCoy said:


> This is weird. My wife's party girl wing-woman was a man-hater. That's one thing about party girls I find FASCINATING. They go out partying with strange men but in reality HATE men.


When I was playing, I was taking out my anger at my ex wife on the ones I was sleeping with.

I think that is pretty common from both sexes.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Trojan John

I just started reading this thread and decided to skip to the end. Over one year later and you're still stuck in the exact same spot. You are doing a disservice to your children and to yourself.

Please listen to the advice that has been repeatedly given to you.


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## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> Looks like the only way to get out of limbo is divorce. What's the best way to do this, don't lead on that I want out and make her think I will take her back once again then drop it right on her lap?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just keep your mouth shut about it, and go about life like you do every day, nothing out of the ordinary. I have had to do it, its not easy, but when you focus on the end result, it helps.


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## happy as a clam

What is your problem? You've gotten YEARS worth of great advice which you just keep ignoring.

Go see a shrink and figure out why you insist on torturing yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog

delta88 said:


> What this comes down to is I can no longer accept being devalued and need a woman that can consider my needs along side their own. A woman that can give and receive love and enjoys being around me for who i am not what i can do for them. Maybe she won't bombard me with constant expectations only to be met with more demands and unhappiness.
> 
> She feels that she should be free to act cold. Always just she had a bad morning or the kids were stressing her out and that obviously perfectly acceptable. When I experience stress and react in a similar fashion, she thinks I'm abusive and I get fed to the wolves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As long as you "need a woman" then you're only going to keep repeat the same mistakes over and over until you learn that the only woman who will be attract to a "man who needs a woman" is a damaged person herself who needs a needy man.

Gotta make change in yourself if you want to fish in a different pond.


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## MachoMcCoy

Trojan John said:


> Over one year later and you're still stuck in the exact same spot.


WOW. More than a year. 13 months plus a little.


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## delta88

turnera said:


> If you don't go to therapy, you'll just end up picking another woman just like her. It's what we do.


I made an appointment with my IC and will start working on dome of what is going on. Thanks as always turners.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Marc878 said:


> You gonna do anything or just complain?


I'm doing something about it but still needed to vent. Everything was going well until out of the blue she declared that I was no longer needed. Then I got the old cold shoulder about everything and could do no right or good.

Hero to zero like a switch was flipped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

MachoMcCoy said:


> WOW. More than a year. 13 months plus a little.


I know. Last April she left me and here we are a year later. This screw up cost me a year of being broke and unhappy. Maybe even meeting someone who'd be fun to be around who might enjoy my company.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

spotthedeaddog said:


> As long as you "need a woman" then you're only going to keep repeat the same mistakes over and over until you learn that the only woman who will be attract to a "man who needs a woman" is a damaged person herself who needs a needy man.
> 
> Gotta make change in yourself if you want to fish in a different pond.


I hear you dog, not a good place to be. Now that you mentioned needing a woman it is something I'm going to look into. The pond I've grown comfortable with has done me no good up to this point. Seems my type is a woman with lots issues and somewhat bad pasts. This will come up in my next session. 

Fact is she never felt she ever did anything wrong and remorse was never an emotion she had. None of her brothers or sisters do either now that I think of it. Funny how that works, overly nice guy hooks up with girl with a colourful past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

The reason I must have stopped going to IC probably because he was telling me what I didn't want to hear. Just like all of you have been advising me all along. And the only reason I keep myself in these unfavorable situations is because I think I deserve it. Somewhere along the way I picked up shame and not just minor shame either.

My department head told me I'm way to hard on myself when I asked about my work performance. He said beating yourself up can be as bad as not caring at all and somewhere in the middle would serve me better. No complaints other than that.

Looks like this will be my starting point
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Read this book: Healing The Shame That Binds You


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## delta88

Thank you turnera.

Spoke to her about divorce and she verbally told me I can keep the house as long as I don't try and take the boys from her. My take on this is the courts should be the ones to decide based on the best fit for the kids, where they live.

Her family has a history with cfs and brothers and family are all career criminals. I'm sure she knows if I play that card her goose is cooked. Her intention is to do nothing legal and keep up this limbo crap and my waiting around. 

Anyhow, I made an appointment with a lawyer and my IC. Just because we divorce doesn't mean everything is over but I have a sneaking suspicion that once I rattle the cage her true colours will come out.

She thinks that I will just sit on my hands but I want everything separated and close that chapter of my life. Hopefully you all can help me through this next part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

I made an intake appointment with my work benefit plan to have my boys see their own counselor. Their mother is going to have to sign consent forms first though. I tried this route before and she told me she thought I was going to use it against her and refused. How can she enroll them in schools and have couselors speak to them and doesn't need my signature? 

Anyhow, the counselor is a completely different person from who I see and isn't even located in the same end of town. My concern is that my sons have someone they can talk to in an unbiased evironment so they can communicate some of what they are experiencing. 

Got a list for when I get home from work.

1) request attendance records from both schools and ask if any counseling resources are available to them in house

2) make the school aware we share joint custody and that I'd like to be informed when anything involves my children

3) contact school they attended last summer and get a copy of those attendance records

4) find which aboriginal cfs agency invetigated my wife for doing drugs and abusing her niece while under her care

5) start looking for employment that doesn't involve shift work

6) find a copy of the shame that binds you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

7) update my address for the DNA kit I ordered last December and submit samples to cover my arse 

The last one is shallow but when all this is said and done I want to be 1100% sure before I pound the sand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

It's been three days and I've had NC with her in any regard. I see what she is doing now and spent a few days reading what different TAM members went through in their situations.

What in the hell is the matter with me? Here I'm sitting expecting my wife to be something she clearly us not. Nothing I can do will change this either unfortunately. Yet I keep at it expecting from my wife what she was never capable of. Then to top it off I expect her to have the same remorse as I would if I was put in her situation. The character just isn't there truth be told.

After that I thought about what a hard upbringing she went through. Not once was that dynamic ever explored. Instead she ended up transposing the wrongdoing onto me and that seemed to allow her to move past her youth. She had a sexual relationship with at least two of her older brothers and has a huge amount of respect for them still. She brags how all the girls want them and how well they dance. No shame at all for incest has me baffled actually. 

What I know now is that now I'm no longer with her she will have to face reality. Maybe she can just pretend for the rest of her life, who gives a crap. No quality man is going to be waiting for her in a bar at 2 am and she will be chin deep in stupidity at that point. I doubt she will have any difficulty having men lay on top of her but she's going to be downgrading in finding a new partner. Especially when he meets her family lol

Starting to see the light. And she is cut off now cash wise. No way am I going to pay my wife to leave and take our kids away from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other

delta88 said:


> Thank you turnera.
> 
> Spoke to her about divorce and *she verbally told me I can keep the house as long as I don't try and take the boys from her. *My take on this is the courts should be the ones to decide based on the best fit for the kids, where they live.
> 
> Her family has a history with cfs and brothers and family are all career criminals. I'm sure she knows if I play that card her goose is cooked. Her intention is to do nothing legal and keep up this limbo crap and my waiting around.
> 
> Anyhow, I made an appointment with a lawyer and my IC. Just because we divorce doesn't mean everything is over but I have a sneaking suspicion that once I rattle the cage her true colours will come out.
> 
> She thinks that I will just sit on my hands but I want everything separated and close that chapter of my life. Hopefully you all can help me through this next part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Broadly speaking, women feel great pressure to be the magnanimous one. Therefore, she is likely to say these things, but it means nothing. As soon as she has an attorney, you getting screwed is no longer on her.


----------



## delta88

Mr The Other said:


> Broadly speaking, women feel great pressure to be the magnanimous one. Therefore, she is likely to say these things, but it means nothing. As soon as she has an attorney, you getting screwed is no longer on her.


Good observation Mr. I didn't put any weight behind what she said. It's what she didn't say that got my attention. She was trying to stop me from challenging her on fighting for custody of the kids. The 50/50 custody thing will be taken off the table too I'm sure once the lawyers get involved.

Not one red cent from this point forward. No answering call or texts either. In all of this I know she will come apart at the seams eventually and she'll have to pick up her own pieces because I won't be there. Hard to explain but when I see her now it's not even the same person I once loved. It's like she changed over the years and either I choose to ignore it or was blind to the fact as long as we were together, but her eyes are different as is the way she carries herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

delta88 said:


> Spoke to her about divorce and she verbally told me I can keep the house as long as I don't try and take the boys from her. [/B] My take on this is the courts should be the ones to decide based on the best fit for the kids, where they live.


This is a very typical misunderstanding that many people have with divorce. It’s highly unlikely that either of you could “take the boys” from the other. The truth is that both of you are going to lose some percentage of time with your boys. If this comes up again, you might want to use this kind of language with her.

“Neither of us can take the boys from each other. We are both their parents. They need us both equally.”

Ask your lawyer about getting as close to 50/50 custody as you can.

Keep in mind that there are two kinds of custody… legal custody and physical custody.

Legal custody means the right to be included equally in determining what doctors they see, what schools they attend, what after school activates they are involved in, make major medical decisions, etc. You should absolutely have equal legal custody to her. Neither of you can make any big changes or choices for the children without the other involved. This should be written out in your divorce.

Physical custody is who has the children for some period of time. Here, where I live, physical custody is decided based on the best interest of the children. The court tries to make it as close to 50/50 as possible. Push for that. Since she seems to not be very cooperative, make sure you have a written plan for which days of the week each of you get with pick and drop off times; who gets which holidays, and how to split summer vacation. If you want I have the physical custody agreement that my ex and I used when we divorced. It was detailed, but the detail made it so that there was never any argument…. And if there was a way to fight about it my ex would have. It’s better to have a written plan to fall back on. Then if you want to make work of mouth, temp adjustments you can… for example one time my ex had to travel for work. So he asked me to swap days during that week. Of course I did that… it’s what’s good for my son.

Also make sure that the divorce papers say that she (or neither of you) can change the schools they attend, church, activities, etc without the written consent from the other.



delta88 said:


> I made an intake appointment with my work benefit plan to have my boys see their own counselor. Their mother is going to have to sign consent forms first though. I tried this route before and she told me she thought I was going to use it against her and refused. How can she enroll them in schools and have couselors speak to them and doesn't need my signature?


She school counselors do not represent your wife. Your children have two parents. The counselors are for your children. I’m not sure how it is where you live, but here, school counselors do not do the kind of counseling that your children would get from a counselor who is not affiliated with the schools. When my son and step kids were in school, the school counselors saw them when they acted out in school and only dealt with school related things.
What you do is, if your kids are seeing a school counselor, you go to the counselor and introduce yourself. Tell the counselor that you are as involved in their lives as their mother and want to be notified of all counseling and in involved in all counseling.


delta88 said:


> Anyhow, the counselor is a completely different person from who I see and isn't even located in the same end of town. My concern is that my sons have someone they can talk to in an unbiased environment so they can communicate some of what they are experiencing.


If you think your children need counseling, then tell your lawyer. They have a guardian ad litem. A “Guardian ad litem” (GAL) is a person the court appoints to investigate what solutions would be in the “best interests of a child.” That way both your and your wife’s voices are heard and the best interest of your children is made.

A guardian ad litem will almost always go for the outside counseling with both parents involved as well. So this would override your wife’s objection.



delta88 said:


> Got a list for when I get home from work.
> 
> 1)	request attendance records from both schools and ask if any counseling resources are available to them in house
> 
> 2)	make the school aware we share joint custody and that I'd like to be informed when anything involves my children




Go to the school and make sure that your name is on all of the registration paperwork. Make sure that you and your wife are both listed as people who must be notified about everything. So with your children on the days when they register for the school year.. your stbx will be there, but you need to be there too. 

Does the school have a web site? If so, go read it. Find out what’s going on at the school. If there are any concerns, you can email their teachers, make appointments, find out about parent/teacher days, etc. 

It sounds like you left most of this up to your wife in the past. You need to get involved now.



delta88 said:


> 3) contact school they attended last summer and get a copy of those attendance records


good


delta88 said:


> 4) find which aboriginal cfs agency invetigated my wife for doing drugs and abusing her niece while under her care


Good

Be prepared for the counter argument that her lawyer will use. You knew all of this about her before. But you married her and had children with her. For years you have been ok with her taking care of the children. So why is this suddenly an issue? How would you answer that?



delta88 said:


> 5) start looking for employment that doesn't involve shift work


good


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## delta88

You have no idea how helpful your post is EleGirl. In fact you were more helpul than the lawyer I spoke with this past week. He's the same one that provided me legal advice last spring and never gives me solid answers. Last recommendation was sell the house and pay off the debts and dont even go through with a legal separation, it might not be needed. I was adament about divorce and he said I could petition for divorce but the legal separation will cost extra? Huh? Already requesting another lawyer contact me for advisement and and referral. 

If you would be willing to send me a custody agreement I'd be grateful to say the least. I'm ready now and just want our kids to be healthy and happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GuyInColorado

You'll be fine. Divorce sucks but being stuck in a miserable marriage is much worse!

I'll tell my story, might help. I legally separated on Jan 14, my choice. She served me with papers on Feb 20th while I was at the house doing taxes with her (ha!). We both got attorneys and paid $3K retainers to each one out of our joint checking. I got an invoice for $500 in Feb and an invoice for $1,000 for Mar. I'm sure Apr will be over $500. I spent first month getting the financial disclosure done, same with her. Next step is mediation, which is scheduled for mid May. She will get the house, I'll get the cash and my paid off truck. She needs to refinance house and her car within 12 months. I want 50% custody, she wants me to have 2 days a week. So I'm sure we'll fight over that and I'll take it to court if needed. If she drives up legal fees like crazy, I'll make her sell the house so I don't get screwed. It's what I can hold over her head, since she wants the house and $80K equity. I hope to be officially divorced by September. 

We still have joint checking in paying bills (mortgage, loans, utilities, etc). She lives in the house and I live in a rental house. We meet every month at Starbucks to work out the kid schedule. I get them every other weekend and a day or two every other week. It works for now, but I don't see my kids near enough. I miss them like crazy. It's the only downside to this divorce. To be honest, the STBX and I get along great, much better when we were married. I keep communication strictly to kids and divorce matters, but I'm very happy with how it's going.

I started dating 3 weeks after separating and am in an exclusive relationship with a girl I truly love. I was ready though, as my marriage was a joke and I checked out years ago. Hell, we haven't had sex in over 5 years! I snooped her phone records today and she's been texting a new number for 3 weeks now all the time. So I bet she is starting to date as well, which I hope is true!


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## Nucking Futs

GuyInColorado said:


> You'll be fine. Divorce sucks but being stuck in a miserable marriage is much worse!
> 
> I'll tell my story, might help. I legally separated on Jan 14, my choice. She served me with papers on Feb 20th while I was at the house doing taxes with her (ha!). We both got attorneys and paid $3K retainers to each one out of our joint checking. I got an invoice for $500 in Feb and an invoice for $1,000 for Mar. I'm sure Apr will be over $500. I spent first month getting the financial disclosure done, same with her. Next step is mediation, which is scheduled for mid May. She will get the house, I'll get the cash and my paid off truck. She needs to refinance house and her car within 12 months. I want 50% custody, she wants me to have 2 days a week. So I'm sure we'll fight over that and I'll take it to court if needed. If she drives up legal fees like crazy, I'll make her sell the house so I don't get screwed. It's what I can hold over her head, since she wants the house and $80K equity. I hope to be officially divorced by September.
> 
> We still have joint checking in paying bills (mortgage, loans, utilities, etc). She lives in the house and I live in a rental house. We meet every month at Starbucks to work out the kid schedule. *I get them every other weekend and a day or two every other week.* It works for now, but I don't see my kids near enough. I miss them like crazy. It's the only downside to this divorce. To be honest, the STBX and I get along great, much better when we were married. I keep communication strictly to kids and divorce matters, but I'm very happy with how it's going.
> 
> I started dating 3 weeks after separating and am in an exclusive relationship with a girl I truly love. I was ready though, as my marriage was a joke and I checked out years ago. Hell, we haven't had sex in over 5 years! I snooped her phone records today and she's been texting a new number for 3 weeks now all the time. So I bet she is starting to date as well, which I hope is true!


This is a precedent the court may keep in place. You need to correct this now. If necessary move back into the house.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You checked out, started dating and then snooped her phone...okay...?


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## delta88

Guy in Colorado, 
Sorry to hear of your divorce. I am in a similar situation with my stbxw. She want me to take the kids on weekends which works out great for her. She gets a social life and my chances of meeting new people declines accordingly. A coworker told me he ended up feeling resentful for being put in that same sitiation and to be careful. Unfortunately it's the kids that suffer the worst in these situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Thought I would give you an update. Spoke with another lawyer and was advised to sit down with the wife and do some grade 4 math to figure out debts and assets and split it right down the middle. Said we could even just point form the terms to get the process started. Once we get that done we bring the agreement in for independent legal review and sign off on it.

I thought that would be less trauma for the kids and both her and I for that matter. The lawyer explained her consumer debt has to be settled out and is subtracted from her share of the assets. Now she sent me a text saying this:

"As for the house **** and debt. We could just postpone filing for divorce and stay civil and sell it first. Unless it's too late and you went and made a big mess of everything. Which I'm kinda assuming you did."

What I read in this is give me a $30000 cheque so I can drop you like a hot potato. Then when we legally settle this, you can pay off my debt with your remaining equity. My lawyer said that selling now is not in my best interest. No kidding. Any assets we have will not be made liquid until an agreement is in place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AVR1962

Your wife sounds like my husband, all excuse, everything is innocent on their part, hostile when asked questions but will not admit the full truth of events that played out. She is doing this to cover what she is doing and as long as she can throw you off her trail she is content. She gets angry when confronted with the truth as she cannot face the truth. She has to blame you so she does not have to take responsibility. It is a game that will play out time and time again. I have been with my husband for 27 years and no matter how I approach a situation with him it is the same scenario, yet I am the problem. This lack of trust which more than likely has developed in your relationship will further lead you down the road of emotional separation from your wife. You will get to a point that you feel terribly confused because you feel you no longer know this person. Once you separate emotionally to a point that you can look at your spouse objectively you will see the game and lies for what it has been and then you will make steps to get out as this game leads tyou down a road to utter frustration and it eats away at you from the inside out.

I have filed for divorce. The final straw in my situation was lies over the history found on the computer, history i confronted him with and he said he had no idea how it got there. Right! Done!!!!!!

Don't play the game, save yourself and get out!!!!

I stayed because I did not want to break up my family. Our youngest is now 19 and while still at home is working and in college. When I told her I was divorcing her dad she said, "Finally, I am happy for you mom!" Kid see.


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## delta88

Thanks AVR1962, you hit the head of the nail on that one. It's like she cannot allow others to see who she really is and that mantra comes at all costs. Then there's me looking for acknowledgement of he open wrongdoings. It's a recipe for a misery cake. She is not even willing to have a sit down and that I am intimidating. I find this humourours because she is saying she wants the equity (indirectly of course) but doesn't want to deal with the other side of that sword. Anything outside of this arena is intimidation? Now she said what debt she is willing to repay. The pervious legal advice I got was she could simply not sign the separation agreement and $1500 would go out the window. 

Now she says she will draw up the agreement with her lawyer and send it to me. My thinking is good, we will have something to work with since I have no idea what her actual intentions are. She keeps saying she will not fight and will let me take what I want. Last text from her:

"I don't want to see you. Your just to intimidating to be around. I'm not going to fight you on anything either. Like I said before I don't care about any of that stuff. I will talk to my lawyer about the debt. Once I talk to her I will email you my initial agreement and you can decide from there."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

I now realize she is a liar and has probably been with a number of men during our relationship and after. When I catch her in lies she cannot face the fact of her actions and becomes instantly angry. Then goes into blame-shifting and a healthy blend of the rationalization hamster. It is a reflection of her character not mine thank god.

Anyhow, this boils down to this. My stbxw will open lines off communication when she is getting something out of it. As soon as she stops getting everything her way, she turn away like I never existed.

A coworker told me to list all the furniture and possessions she took from the marital home too as it has to come off her end. I've been advised to fight for every penny as being nice will just cost me in the end. His xw had so many striking similarities right down to counseling and multiple separations. His ex was on ****** ******* and he downloaded the data files and she still denied it, unreal.

From here on she gets treated like a business partner and everything right down to pensions get split.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

> What I am learning from my reading is that I'm a Nice Guy, I'm a codependent. That I focus on others instead of myself by habit, not by nature. I always thought of myself as "good natured" but I'm just a doormat. I'm learning that I have little confidence and little self-respect, and that's why I allow myself to be treated the way I have been, and that's why I still feel what I do.
> 
> I want to find my authentic self, I have memories of him, I liked that guy. Now, where to find him? I feel kind of like I am finding him, but days like today, he's nowhere to be seen again.
> 
> Because she's blocking your view.
> 
> I truly hate who I was during the marriage; with a passion. I always made an excuse for who I was and what I wanted to do (nothing for myself - therefore becoming a less productive husband and father).
> I didn't take the initiative to better myself on a daily basis; convinced that being the stagnant ME was the "right" way to live.
> I sank and sank - never realizing that there was something wrong... It took "this" to realize that there were major issues with the way I conducted myself, who I was, and accepting that there is work to be done.
> I wasn't true to myself - how could be truthful to anyone else. Damn it all.


This is me right now. At least my eyes are open.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123

Keep those eyes wide open. 

Funny thing I've learned is whether it's your wife/gf/coworker the way you are treated is directly related to HOW you allow yourself to be treated. 

Another funny thing is:


When you start treating someone the way they treated you, they get offended.


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## delta88

Thanks for your insight jerry.

Interesting development. The stbxw texts me today wanting to do stuff as friends. Says she misses me and wants to be able to spend some time together and not kill eachother. I asked her if she is contacting me out of guilt and she said there is no guilt.

Guess it makes sense she wants a softer target for the separation process. What do you think is going on here. She hates my guts and I'm the source of all misery in her universe but now lets "hang out sometimes".

She says she's happy, broke and ringing up debt as usual but happy. Her fantasy may just involve the freedom fantasy where she can make mistakes and never have any consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy

Nice post Delta. You seem like you have totally separated yourself mentally. Pure "what the Hell is the matter with her" and not an ounce of "but I still kind of like her, what could it hurt to hang out a little?".


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## delta88

Thanks macho, I can't sleep this is bothering me so much but I can still see the angle she is working. How can we just go to being friends from a married. Seriously? Then asking me if I already planned on taking somebody else to an upcoming concert and that she'd like to go with me if I didn't mind. After she blew it all off said she should have never contacted me. 

Crazyness
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheGoodGuy

delta88 said:


> Thanks for your insight jerry.
> 
> Interesting development. The stbxw texts me today wanting to do stuff as friends. Says she misses me and wants to be able to spend some time together and not kill eachother. I asked her if she is contacting me out of guilt and she said there is no guilt.
> 
> Guess it makes sense she wants a softer target for the separation process. What do you think is going on here. She hates my guts and I'm the source of all misery in her universe but now lets "hang out sometimes".
> 
> She says she's happy, broke and ringing up debt as usual but happy. *Her fantasy may just involve the freedom fantasy where she can make mistakes and never have any consequences.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's no longer your job to be her sounding board, BFF, or warm blanket. Those are husband duties, in which you are no longer employed in that role. Your new job is kick ass parent and you don't owe her anything.


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## turnera

She says she's broke. She just wants to hang out so you can pay for her stuff.


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## AVR1962

delta88 said:


> Thanks AVR1962, you hit the head of the nail on that one. It's like she cannot allow others to see who she really is and that mantra comes at all costs. Then there's me looking for acknowledgement of he open wrongdoings. It's a recipe for a misery cake. She is not even willing to have a sit down and that I am intimidating. I find this humourours because she is saying she wants the equity (indirectly of course) but doesn't want to deal with the other side of that sword. Anything outside of this arena is intimidation? Now she said what debt she is willing to repay. The pervious legal advice I got was she could simply not sign the separation agreement and $1500 would go out the window.
> 
> Now she says she will draw up the agreement with her lawyer and send it to me. My thinking is good, we will have something to work with since I have no idea what her actual intentions are. She keeps saying she will not fight and will let me take what I want. Last text from her:
> 
> "I don't want to see you. Your just to intimidating to be around. I'm not going to fight you on anything either. Like I said before I don't care about any of that stuff. I will talk to my lawyer about the debt. Once I talk to her I will email you my initial agreement and you can decide from there."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So she can refuse to sign the papers from your attorney but she is going to hire her own? That will just add to the costs. She can work with your attorney, does she not realize that?


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## delta88

I wanted to update you all as to what is going on. My wife sicker me back in again. Then out of the blue she tells me she is sick of the way I'm acting. I tried not to engage her but she will not relent. Anyhow, she told me she needed space again and her Facebook went back up and went out to the bar one day after I was gone.

I had to go pick up my youngest because he was burning up and his mother wouldn't answer his calls. It was 1:45 am when he called me so I went into town to get him and bring him home. How could she just ignore her own child for the bar or god knows what else.

Now yesterday she tells me she has had guy friends but could never tell me because of my reaction and controlling nature. Could this be that she is blaming me for her loose morals and betrayal. She said that she needs to be with someone who will not judge her and accept her past as an intricate part of who she is? Alcoholic at 12 who had sex with her brothers for a period lasting years and I'm supposed to embrace her family's disfunction. No Frick way!

I can't believe that she is tickle truthing me!! What a lying price if cap. She canceled her Facebook but always had her friends list private to I couldn't see, either could my boys for that matter, then told me Facebook wasn't good for a relationship so she deactivated her account. I thought to myself why would she do that other than trying to keep her friend list private from me. Well, I called her on it when she got home one day last week and explain that I was open with my friends list and that she should do the same so I stood beside her and asked her to reactivate her account so I could have AR look. Well she went raving mad telling me this is the reason why she can't be with me. Then she took her phone and went outside for about 15 minutes by herself of course. Then after making a huge scene called me into the bedroom with a sweet voice saying I could come have a look.

She must have thought I was stupid but I knew at that point she was hiding aspects of her life from me and using manipulation to continue to do so. Now she has had guy friends for quite some time which was kept secret from me all along. Again she blamed me for not being able to be honest.

Interesting note when she called my son at 2:40 am she was telling him that he knew that she was going to go out and she wouldn't answer her phone because he'd want her to come home. I was stunned. She does the same thing to me but ended up making my boy feel ashamed for making her come home. What a piece of crap in the spouse and parent arena. Then she calls me at 6 am making fun if me for picking up my youngest boy and only being interested in if I was drunk too? I didn't have a stich and she lost interest once she found up I was sober. Hung up on me actually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Maybe a woman's perpective would help me here but I asked ic she got something from talking to these guys that I didn't give her. She explained that they wouldn't judge her and she could be open with them. How can she be open to almost strangers but treat her husband with such contempt? 

Was I supposed to support her bonding with other men in her life that I knew nothing about? What a kick in the nuts. I'm almost 100% sure she is BPD now and know for sure that I am codependent. 

I wanted to applogize to everyone who took the time to post advice already knowing what was going on and my complete failure to listen. I had this hope that my wife was different from all of the others and in my ignorance have delayed me finding a woman that is just waiting to enjoy my life with me.

If you all would be willing to remain supportive it would be appreciative be on words. Past is the past but going forward I want to be a force for her to reckon with and need to ensure mh boys are in a healthy situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

So have you filed for divorce or not? Nobody's going to give you advice on how to stay with her. She's a lost cause.


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## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> Maybe a woman's perpective would help me here but I asked ic she got something from talking to these guys that I didn't give her.


She gets strange sex regularly. 

I thought you'd pulled the trigger on leaving her?


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## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> So have you filed for divorce or not? Nobody's going to give you advice on how to stay with her. She's a lost cause.


This!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

So are you done with the self abuse yet? I've never seen such a glutton for punishment. 

My woman's perspective...don't listen to a goddamn thing she tells you about anything. She cheats because she is one seriously damaged individual who needs intensive therapy. She should probably be committed. Stop questioning everything she has said, because number one, it doesn't matter at this point, and number two, she is nuts. 

Stop talking to her, cut all contact. File for divorce and sole custody. Not just sole custody, but put in a motion for supervised visitation only. Your wife is not fit to keep her children with her. This time, keep your head out of your a$$, there is way more at stake here than you keeping this waste of life as your wife...your children's well being! You don't love this woman, she most certainly does not love you, so stop with the wishy washy bullsh!t, and do this for your kids.


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## TheGoodGuy

turnera said:


> So have you filed for divorce or not? Nobody's going to give you advice on how to stay with her. She's a lost cause.





3Xnocharm said:


> So are you done with the self abuse yet? I've never seen such a glutton for punishment.
> 
> My woman's perspective...don't listen to a goddamn thing she tells you about anything. She cheats because she is one seriously damaged individual who needs intensive therapy. She should probably be committed. Stop questioning everything she has said, because number one, it doesn't matter at this point, and number two, she is nuts.
> 
> Stop talking to her, cut all contact. File for divorce and sole custody. Not just sole custody, but put in a motion for supervised visitation only. Your wife is not fit to keep her children with her. This time, keep your head out of your a$$, there is way more at stake here than you keeping this waste of life as your wife...your children's well being! You don't love this woman, she most certainly does not love you, so stop with the wishy washy bullsh!t, and do this for your kids.


Delta. The next time you feel like talking to her, read these posts over and over again.


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## Openminded

A woman's perspective? She has a lot of contempt for you because you put up with her "stuff". 

That's really the way you want to live?


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## Plan 9 from OS

Just read your thread. OP, I'm convinced that you are little better than your wife. You have been soooooo concerned over your kids being damaged by your wife that you fail to see that your inaction and stupidity to fall for the same crap four times now in this thread makes you just as culpable to their screwed up states? You know better, were told what would happen and lived thru it numerous times now and yet...you're only too happy to add a new generation of dysfunctional adults to our world. 

Totally unacceptable IMHO. For the sake of the kids, you and your wife should put the up for adoption. Yes, I'm serious. Then you can continue your codependent misery to your hearts content. Fool my once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three or more times, I must confess that I enjoy being a masochist.


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## AVR1962

delta88 said:


> I wanted to update you all as to what is going on. My wife sicker me back in again. Then out of the blue she tells me she is sick of the way I'm acting. I tried not to engage her but she will not relent. Anyhow, she told me she needed space again and her Facebook went back up and went out to the bar one day after I was gone.
> 
> I had to go pick up my youngest because he was burning up and his mother wouldn't answer his calls. It was 1:45 am when he called me so I went into town to get him and bring him home. How could she just ignore her own child for the bar or god knows what else.
> 
> Now yesterday she tells me she has had guy friends but could never tell me because of my reaction and controlling nature. Could this be that she is blaming me for her loose morals and betrayal. She said that she needs to be with someone who will not judge her and accept her past as an intricate part of who she is? Alcoholic at 12 who had sex with her brothers for a period lasting years and I'm supposed to embrace her family's disfunction. No Frick way!
> 
> I can't believe that she is tickle truthing me!! What a lying price if cap. She canceled her Facebook but always had her friends list private to I couldn't see, either could my boys for that matter, then told me Facebook wasn't good for a relationship so she deactivated her account. I thought to myself why would she do that other than trying to keep her friend list private from me. Well, I called her on it when she got home one day last week and explain that I was open with my friends list and that she should do the same so I stood beside her and asked her to reactivate her account so I could have AR look. Well she went raving mad telling me this is the reason why she can't be with me. Then she took her phone and went outside for about 15 minutes by herself of course. Then after making a huge scene called me into the bedroom with a sweet voice saying I could come have a look.
> 
> She must have thought I was stupid but I knew at that point she was hiding aspects of her life from me and using manipulation to continue to do so. Now she has had guy friends for quite some time which was kept secret from me all along. Again she blamed me for not being able to be honest.
> 
> Interesting note when she called my son at 2:40 am she was telling him that he knew that she was going to go out and she wouldn't answer her phone because he'd want her to come home. I was stunned. She does the same thing to me but ended up making my boy feel ashamed for making her come home. What a piece of crap in the spouse and parent arena. Then she calls me at 6 am making fun if me for picking up my youngest boy and only being interested in if I was drunk too? I didn't have a stich and she lost interest once she found up I was sober. Hung up on me actually.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Delta88, how old is your son? My daughter is 19 and I would still have my phone available in case she called and I would not be hanging out at the bars. She is saying you need to accept her, not this type of behavior. If she is seeking the attention of other men you do not have to accept that. That tells me she is very empty inside and she is trying to fill herself up by getting the attention of these men. Honestly, you need to get your son out of that mess and you need to be done with her.


----------



## GusPolinski

delta88 said:


> I wanted to update you all as to what is going on. My wife sicker me back in again. Then out of the blue she tells me she is sick of the way I'm acting. I tried not to engage her but she will not relent. Anyhow, she told me she needed space again and her Facebook went back up and went out to the bar one day after I was gone.
> 
> I had to go pick up my youngest because he was burning up and his mother wouldn't answer his calls. It was 1:45 am when he called me so I went into town to get him and bring him home. How could she just ignore her own child for the bar or god knows what else.
> 
> Now yesterday she tells me she has had guy friends but could never tell me because of my reaction and controlling nature. Could this be that she is blaming me for her loose morals and betrayal. She said that she needs to be with someone who will not judge her and accept her past as an intricate part of who she is? Alcoholic at 12 who had sex with her brothers for a period lasting years and I'm supposed to embrace her family's disfunction. No Frick way!
> 
> I can't believe that she is tickle truthing me!! What a lying price if cap. She canceled her Facebook but always had her friends list private to I couldn't see, either could my boys for that matter, then told me Facebook wasn't good for a relationship so she deactivated her account. I thought to myself why would she do that other than trying to keep her friend list private from me. Well, I called her on it when she got home one day last week and explain that I was open with my friends list and that she should do the same so I stood beside her and asked her to reactivate her account so I could have AR look. Well she went raving mad telling me this is the reason why she can't be with me. Then she took her phone and went outside for about 15 minutes by herself of course. Then after making a huge scene called me into the bedroom with a sweet voice saying I could come have a look.
> 
> She must have thought I was stupid but I knew at that point she was hiding aspects of her life from me and using manipulation to continue to do so. Now she has had guy friends for quite some time which was kept secret from me all along. Again she blamed me for not being able to be honest.
> 
> Interesting note when she called my son at 2:40 am she was telling him that he knew that she was going to go out and she wouldn't answer her phone because he'd want her to come home. I was stunned. She does the same thing to me but ended up making my boy feel ashamed for making her come home. What a piece of crap in the spouse and parent arena. Then she calls me at 6 am making fun if me for picking up my youngest boy and only being interested in if I was drunk too? I didn't have a stich and she lost interest once she found up I was sober. Hung up on me actually.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry, delta. I get that love is blind, but you don't get to type or use the words "I can't believe she is trickle truthing me" unless you date and marry someone new. What you mean is "I don't want to believe" or something else which implies how stupid she is for trying it again.


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## MachoMcCoy

delta88 said:


> My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me? Every time she did this in the past I’ve never investigated what she told me and just trusted her. My gut feeling was telling me to look into things and it got worse once she gave her reaction. And she always tells me this is all in my head yet she is still taking off and I’m left to rationalize why she always does this.






delta88 said:


> If she did cheat I want out and nothing to do with her again. No option for MC and reconcile. This would prove our relationship was all deception from the beginning and she is a succubus.



All from 15 months go. And now he's decided to stay wth her and work it out. Hmmm...

Those two posts were made within a day or so of each other, so there's been no growing (or regressing) between the two. Yet I don't think they go together. They COULD go together, but I don't think they do.

I recently read a post about a guy who was engaged to the greatest woman he'd ever met. Was waiting until marriage until sex. His best man had to pull him aside (well before the wedding) and tell him he screwed her in college along with another guy. At the same time. A few other people in town had ridden her. He thought she was pure as the wind driven snow. Everybody knew but him.

A while ago I read a post about a guy who found out his wife was the town trampoline. She's screwing everyone in town. EVERYONE knows, obviously. Except one guy who not only has to deal with a serial cheater wife, but he has to leave town from humiliation.

I've read some threads about a guy on this site. Has a close friend. He's sure his buddy's wife is a typical bar wh0re. Has heard reliable first and second hand stories. Is pretty sure this woman could have had inappropriate relationships dozens of times, potentially with a different guy each time. One time he felt comfortable enough to address his buddy's EX-wife's infidelities with him, and was SHOCKED that this guy knew about "one early indiscretion" and the one, basically, that ended the marriage 20+ years later. He has no clue. He DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW.

That OP's buddy never must have never asked her how she can go to bars, night after night, and never spend a penny. NEVER thought to discuss with her about how that worked. I've seen it SO MANY other times on this site. I see it here.

OP. That guy's buddy was the splitting image of you. His ex wife is carbon copy of your wife. But you never REALLY think about what she's up to until 5AM, do you?

I find that fascinating.


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## threelittlestars

I just read this thread. I would post advice like all others but they are just a broken record as are you (YOU ARE BROKEN) Please for the love of god, take this evening and a beer OR something and read this thread and your posts over again. Please for the love of god banish this f-up woman from your life, NEVER TALK TO HER AGAIN. yes you have kids but it IS possible to never have direct contact again. 

Just please RE READ THIS ENTIRE THING. 

You have yo yo'ed yourself and one of these days you are going to SNAP and all the **** your wife has been labeling you as will come true. I think she could push you all the way into cookoo land. You need free....from her and the person you are obsessed with her and your so called fantasy life in your head.


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## delta88

Well you were all right. Certainly not the post about the adoption but the part of her never changing.

I can drill it down to this. She always is in attack mode discounting any insight, position, or opinion I might have on any matter even is she has to go against rational and common sense . This one was to get our oldest boy picking up after himself, my wife thought it was unfair but at 15 years old it shouldn't even need to be said. 

Yesterday I reached my breaking point and told her that she doesn't value anything I care or hold an opinion about. Her response was pretty much "So what, who gives a cap. It isn't changing". I guess the part that got me confused was why would someone want to be with someone that they don't really care about their feelings. Like if it were a friendship it wouldn't be much of one. She tried talking as I was getting out what I had to say and I told here before she even said a word not to say "me too...I feel the same way" as it is incredibly demeaning and does it every time. 

I finally seen my doctor about depression and have began taking a prescribed medication. My appointment with my IC is for October 8th and I'm going to start getting my life back together. A few weeks ago I hit a rough patch and even after me taking steps to get my head straight, she still enjoyed making a cheep shot comment about it and never appologizing. One morning after I got home from the night shift and was driving home all happy to see her. Once she woke up she was cold and mean so I went into the living room to watch TV and remove myself. She felt bad so she asked me to come back into the kitchen where she was doing her make-up. As soon as I sat down it started up again and got mad when I tried to kiss her goodbye on the lips. What l got was a eye-rolling kiss on the forehead like a strange elderly man would get from a stranger. 2 minutes later she's sending me hearts kiss faces via text?

Tried to nail that one down too but she just chalked it up to being in a rush and not being a morning person. It's my being sensitive always not her actions. Something else she said :that people who love each other survive even affairs and the fact there has been no affairs in our relationship and we are still having problems means we must not be meant to be together. Nice logic if you were raised on skid row...

The way things are now the boys are back in school on town so I'm in a better position to keep them here. The wench knows she's just doing things to irritate me and won't ever change. A spouse that holds nothing but contempt to their partner is useless as far as I'm concerned. Tits on a boar

Plan is to see my lawyer asap so she can't take the kids to the city again and play it cool and indifferent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Now that I think about it, I was the one who initiated any intimacy in the 19 years together. Her method was to put on a fancy pair of underwear or take a shower before bed. Like a signal that she wanted me to service her. It made sex boring for me for years.

How can someone who is so sexual not be able to initiate sex with her husband is another area of confusion for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> Now that I think about Ii I was the one who initiated any intimacy in the 19 years together. Her method was to put on a fancy pair of underwear or take a shower before bed. Like a signal that she wanted me to service her. It made sex boring for me for years.
> 
> How can someone who is so sexual not be able to initiate sex with her husband is another area of confusion for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure why you're confused... She doesn't love you and doesn't desire you. 

I cannot believe you are still with this waste of human flesh. You clearly have zero self respect and little to no respect for your kids and their well being. I hope your lawyer visit includes filing for divorce FINALLY.


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## bandit.45

What do you want from us Delta? Are you expecting us to give you different answers from the ones you've been getting for the last year?

Your wife is not going to change no matter how long you wait.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Death by a thousand cuts... and still you've stood and received them never fully understanding you will never find self by lowering yourself to her terms.

While not a fan of the 180 in many ways (if used for retaliation), I think it would be very useful in your case as you truly need a tool that will provide you some sanity while you take inventory of your next steps and begin a process for healing that you will never get while engaged in your unhappiness. 

If you find her responding to it because you have used it for yourself and begin to think of it as a measure for bringing her back into alignment for the marriage, you run a fool's errand as the tool for you is now being misused... you have the clarity to free yourself, strike while the iron is hot.

Also, when you call her names, you are showing more disrespect for yourself more than her... a higher standard may benefit your healing.


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## caruso

delta88 said:


> As soon as I sat down it started up again and got mad when I tried to kiss her goodbye on the lips. What l got was a eye-rolling kiss on the forehead like a strange elderly man would get from a stranger. 2 minutes later she's sending me hearts kiss faces via text?
> 
> Tried to nail that one down too but she just chalked it up to being in a rush


She texted the wrong person.

Obviously.


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## Emerging Buddhist

caruso said:


> She texted the wrong person.
> 
> Obviously.


I wondered about that too... or just another unmindful head game.


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## delta88

caruso said:


> She texted the wrong person.
> 
> Obviously.


I never thought of that. Was just assuming it was her making it seem like her acting the jerk didn't happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Death by a thousand cuts... and still you've stood and received them never fully understanding you will never find self by lowering yourself to her terms.
> 
> While not a fan of the 180 in many ways (if used for retaliation), I think it would be very useful in your case as you truly need a tool that will provide you some sanity while you take inventory of your next steps and begin a process for healing that you will never get while engaged in your unhappiness.
> 
> If you find her responding to it because you have used it for yourself and begin to think of it as a measure for bringing her back into alignment for the marriage, you run a fool's errand as the tool for you is now being misused... you have the clarity to free yourself, strike while the iron is hot.
> 
> Also, when you call her names, you are showing more disrespect for yourself more than her... a higher standard may benefit your healing.


Thanks EB for taking the time to post your comments. Not knowing I guess I equated love as some kind of safety net or something and it's biting me in the arse. Going to start a juicing program and cut out the processed foods. Alcohol has been done for three weeks now too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

bandit.45 said:


> What do you want from us Delta? Are you expecting us to give you different answers from the ones you've been getting for the last year?
> 
> Your wife is not going to change no matter how long you wait.


The reason for my update because she was just doing things to get under my skin and finally saw what she was doing. Sucking me in to a response that allows her to do what she wants guilt free. So I finally get it that she is not going to magically see the light.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caruso

delta88 said:


> So I finally get it that she is not going to magically see the light.


Not so sure that seeing the light is in your near future either.


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## delta88

caruso said:


> Not so sure that seeing the light is in your near future either.


I was expecting some of these responses. Plan is now not to let her take the kids back to the city and start the separation or petition process. 

Another thing is I didn't pay down a cent of her consumer debt this time. I was wondering why she was so motivated to do some house renos too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerging Buddhist

delta88 said:


> Thanks EB for taking the time to post your comments. Not knowing I guess I equated love as some kind of safety net or something and it's biting me in the arse. Going to start a juicing program and cut out the processed foods. Alcohol has been done for three weeks now too...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good deal... keep cleansing both the body and soul, it will aid the clarity and keep you healthy for the necessary steps needed. Always remember the congruence of the heart and mind, these must align to deal with the challenges of the emotional trauma we find ourselves in when things peak, especially the ones you have found yourself dealing with.

The mind is tuned for survival and this is good for running the show most of the time, but ignoring the voice of the heart, even if often just a whisper, loses the complimenting personal will and you get gaps between body, mind, and spirit.

Keep listening to your body (what your gut tells you), your mind (maintain a vision of the outcome for the calm you seek), and your soul (find joy and inspiration as you pursue your best "dharma door" in every decision).

The peace you seek is within reach...


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## delta88

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Good deal... keep cleansing both the body and soul, it will aid the clarity and keep you healthy for the necessary steps needed. Always remember the congruence of the heart and mind, these must align to deal with the challenges of the emotional trauma we find ourselves in when things peak, especially the ones you have found yourself dealing with.
> 
> The mind is tuned for survival and this is good for running the show most of the time, but ignoring the voice of the heart, even if often just a whisper, loses the complimenting personal will and you get gaps between body, mind, and spirit.
> 
> Keep listening to your body (what your gut tells you), your mind (maintain a vision of the outcome for the calm you seek), and your soul (find joy and inspiration as you pursue your best "dharma door" in every decision).
> 
> The peace you seek is within reach...


Thanks so much for that EB, you have no idea.

Just had a phone consult with a lawyer and apparently I can't stop her from unregistering the boys from their shool but I can notify the school divisions in the city that I share custody rights and not allow her to register them without my permission. Then she can only reregister them in our town school until an agreement is finalized.

My approach on is is going to petition the divorce after we hash out an agreement to save the step of doing the divorce after. I get more free advice before the referral and it coming on my dime so I plan on sitting down with her and hammering something out. Right now I'm sure there are a bunch of questions I'll have once we start the T-balance for each of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Just spent the morning getting passed around the boys old schools and districts trying to invoke my parental custody rights. All I can say is wow.

I had to find the education administration handbook where it clearly states:

LEGISLATIVE REFERENCE: 
• Public Schools Act, Part 1, Definitions 
• Child and Family Services Act, Part 1, Definitions 
GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES: 
In the case of separated/divorced parents, unless one parent can provide legal 
documentation proving that the other parent’s parental rights have been revoked or 
altered; one must assume that both parents have retained their parental rights. It is 
the responsibility of the custodian to provide documentation.

Now that I am armed with the legislation putting the onus on the custodian she is required to provide both signatures or a legal document stating hers is the only one required. This is not at all what the schools said as they were double taking me saying things like a parent could be dead. My reply was don't you ask to see a death certificate. 

At this point it isn't my priority to see that schools do there job properly but what it does do is make any registration not legal or complete.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Just wanted to update you all even though there hasn't been much interest in my tread.

She has gone completely again and brings home supper for everyone in the house but me. I guess it's her way of saying I don't deserve to be treated like a member of the family. Her plans for the long weekend does not involve me thank goodness so I can have some much needed time to myself.

I've been on my medication for a week now and can feel changes are starting to happen. No more dry mouth and just have a little insomnia so the side effects are negligible now. Her fake laughing with the kids and her games to just irritate me are not getting under my skin now! Now I feel myself getting her out of my head. How much is that worth!!!

My bulldog pup Winston is helping quite a bit as he seems to like me all the time and doesn't have any expectation of me other than bring his friend. It's a great deal for both of us actually. My chest is starting to stick out a little more every day and was getting followed by women around the grocery store with my cart full if organic vegtables and a big bag of puppy chow. One even instigated a conversation about cilantro and parsley lol

Live long and prosper everyone 🤗
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

FYI, when I was dealing with the same issues, and the principal of the school was MY FRIEND and lived NEXT DOOR to us, it became quite clear that HER first priority, over our friendship, was HER JOB.

And it then became MY JOB to protect MY CHILD from the school district. We even had a phone recording of a teacher from the district lying to the parent, to protect the school, over the child's best interest.

Remember that ANY teacher's main interest is to protect HER JOB.

As one teacher told me, you will be here for a few years, I will be here for much longer.


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## delta88

turnera said:


> FYI, when I was dealing with the same issues, and the principal of the school was MY FRIEND and lived NEXT DOOR to us, it became quite clear that HER first priority, over our friendship, was HER JOB.
> 
> And it then became MY JOB to protect MY CHILD from the school district. We even had a phone recording of a teacher from the district lying to the parent, to protect the school, over the child's best interest.
> 
> Remember that ANY teacher's main interest is to protect HER JOB.
> 
> As one teacher told me, you will be here for a few years, I will be here for much longer.


Thanks for not giving up on me turnera. It was a complete turn around once my rights were outlined by law all the double talking stopped. And with email there is a paper trail where some kind of response must be made that the districts and schools have all be notified. It might come in handy if the accept the boys at another school.

What was impressive was all the women j spoke with all understood my position as a father and did shat they could to help. It was a real faith renewer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Upadate:

Well tonight I went into our room to see if my stbxw was willing to talk about the separation. I had a chance to review our financials, without knowing the true amount of her consumer debt, and it didn't go very well. 

Her take on it is we can sell the house and just walk type of thing. My lawyer explained selling the house without an agreement was a bad idea. All this debt has to be cleared up and legally released but she didn't like that at all and snapped. Told me that's why she can't be with me. I explained that lawyer involved ensure this will go fairly.

The look in her eye was pure hate and don't really know what I did to make her feel this way toward me. Last week she loved me to no end this week I'm the devil.

Anyhow, she's been texting on her phone all night so I think I know what's going on. Either someone's coaching her or there's a dude in her life. Just texted her that I will be the bigger man and just sell the house like she wants and that I don't want her to be mad at me. 😈

From here on I'm going to do a last phone consult tomorrow and retain a lawyer on Tuesday to stop her from taking my kids again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Actual text:

"Listen, I don't want to fight. We can sell the house and you can take your half, I don't care anymore. Just stop hating me please. 

Get an apprasal this week and we can put it on the market right away"

I am livid she thinks I'm that stupid. I'm a good husband/dad when I do what she wants and worthless otherwise. Going to apply this energy to the road that lay ahead...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

You just you just made a verbal agreement. Then, you cemented it by sending it to her via text.


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## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> Upadate:
> 
> Well tonight I went into our room to see if my stbxw was willing to talk about the separation. I had a chance to review our financials, without knowing the true amount of her consumer debt, and it didn't go very well.
> 
> Her take on it is we can sell the house and just walk type of thing. My lawyer explained selling the house without an agreement was a bad idea. All this debt has to be cleared up and legally released but she didn't like that at all and snapped. Told me that's why she can't be with me. I explained that lawyer involved ensure this will go fairly.
> 
> *The look in her eye was pure hate and don't really know what I did to make her feel this way toward me. Last week she loved me to no end this week I'm the devil.*
> 
> Anyhow, she's been texting on her phone all night so I think I know what's going on. Either someone's coaching her or there's a dude in her life. Just texted her that I will be the bigger man and just sell the house like she wants and that I don't want her to be mad at me. 😈
> 
> From here on I'm going to do a last phone consult tomorrow and retain a lawyer on Tuesday to stop her from taking my kids again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Newsflash...this woman has NEVER loved you to no end, if AT ALL! Her hate is NOT NEW. You are so incredibly far in denial even now. Do whatever it takes to get away fast and stay away.


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## delta88

farsidejunky said:


> You just you just made a verbal agreement. Then, you cemented it by sending it to her via text.


I didn't realize a text can be binding and appreciate you pointing that out farside. Figured right away was subjective and all our assets are in our home equity and will require refinancing either way. 

Going forward I will not make that mistake again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

3Xnocharm said:


> Newsflash...this woman has NEVER loved you to no end, if AT ALL! Her hate is NOT NEW. You are so incredibly far in denial even now. Do whatever it takes to get away fast and stay away.


Yeah, I'm getting it now. She's leaving as we speak or at least moving her stuff out...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grogmiester

I think you should rethink capitulating to her way of selling your house. *You are going against what your attorney has advised as the best way to handle this.* If you are not strong enough to follow through with his advise then have the attorney handle it. I know attorneys cost money but you need to protect yourself.


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## Manchester

delta88 said:


> Actual text:
> 
> "Listen, I don't want to fight. We can sell the house and you can take your half, I don't care anymore. Just stop hating me please.


Good luck with that!

Once they decide they hate you anything and everything you say can and will be used against you.

The hatred only builds it doesn't get better, it's based on years worth of stuff she's sure you did wrong to her and nothing you say or do will change that.


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## delta88

Manchester, looking back I can see that it was "do this for me and I'll treat you fondly" type of deal. Now she's telling me I don't even like being around my children while they are in earshot. Had to explain to them this isn't true.

Text about the sale of house has been deleted now too. I was feeling good up until yesterday but am finding it difficult to not feel like crap while she packs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

delta88 said:


> Manchester, looking back I can see that it was "do this for me and I'll treat you fondly" type of deal. Now she's telling me I don't even like being around my children while they are in earshot. Had to explain to them this isn't true.
> 
> Text about the sale of house has been deleted now too. I was feeling good up until yesterday but am finding it difficult to not feel like crap while she packs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At this point you should be doing a happy dance. The toxic trash is finally taking itself out. Step one to you having a better, happier life. (your kids too!)

Perspective, Delta. The reality is that she is horrible, and you are clinging to an ideal that never actually existed.


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## turnera

Keep being an upstanding father, and your kids won't care what kind of drama she's putting up.


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## delta88

Charm, I know it's better this way but the house already feels empty and they haven't left yet. Going to text my boss and let him know I am not going to be able to make my shift this afternoon.

Turnera, that is the one thing I can do and want to do. Excellent advice and will be making being a great dad tops on my list. Had a chance to talk to my older boy in his own too and explain that he's always in a better position to remain neutral. He understood what I was talking about but at the end of the day he's only 15 years old too so it's a lot for him to take in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

How does acting weak help you?


----------



## Manchester

delta88 said:


> Manchester, looking back I can see that it was "do this for me and I'll treat you fondly" type of deal. Now she's telling me I don't even like being around my children while they are in earshot. Had to explain to them this isn't true.
> 
> Text about the sale of house has been deleted now too. I was feeling good up until yesterday but am finding it difficult to not feel like crap while she packs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's trying to turn them against you.

No surprise there, it happens all the time and it's happening to me right now.


----------



## delta88

Chaparral said:


> How does acting weak help you?


It doesn't help anyone actually chaparral. She obviously likes the drama the whole moving out process brings. The it has to be this way crap all over again.

Speaking with the lawyer this morning he advised me that schools don't care about both parent registering. Me not giving my permission has no bearing on the school accepting the boys. 

My oldest boy is 15 so he can choose where he wants to live. Choice 1 being my wife and he runs the show with no expectations from my wife or choice 2 with dad who wants video games limited to a couple of hours a day and start doing some chores and picking up a sport maybe. He openly tells his mother no and to get out of his room. Since she knows best I haven't involved myself but up to this point I would not allow the boys to treat their mother in this manner. 

The two boys don't want to be split up either and I don't want them to be. So the lawyer started out by me approaching a magistrate for a restraining order against her for the kids and if being a police matter. He changed his tune towards the end of the conversation saying move to where she moves and have the kids half the time.

Told me a separation isn't even needed? Something about just buy her out for the house and drive the cars with both names on them if no one wants to sell them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

Manchester said:


> She's trying to turn them against you.
> 
> No surprise there, it happens all the time and it's happening to me right now.


My mom did this me me and my sister when she left my dad. As the years went on I started to figure things out but when I was a child the whole picture just isn't there.

What does a dad do, does he fight to keep something no one wants but him? It feels like I'm swimming upstream here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

I should also mention I submitted DNA samples for my boys last Monday when I spoke with the schools. GENEX has the samples now and should have an answer back by the end of this week.

The kit was from December of last year so I figured why waste the money. That and my wife took off on me for a weekend around when my second son was conceived.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

She reopened her Facebook and has her friend list blocked even from our kids.

I looked up the guy she was talking too that she dated when she was 16 and wow. He's got images up getting drunk with his grandma with the caption "let the fun begin" and another of a big bottle of whiskey on a table. He is about 7 years younger but looks like he was dragged behind a truck for his adult life. 

After looking at his profile I feel kind of sorry for my kids mother. In my mind I keep thinking she's going to find everything in a guy I couldn't be for her but the reality is she's not going to be in that good of a position moving on. I'm actually thinking it will be nice to be around someone who likes me and who doesn't smoke.


----------



## Manchester

delta88 said:


> What does a dad do, does he fight to keep something no one wants but him? It feels like I'm swimming upstream here.


Only to a point. Some will say "never give up on your kids" but that's just BS because depending on how old they are, they are making a decision not to want to be with you and they need to accept the consequences even if it's due to mom's influence. 

You can't live your life around them. When that point is reached, you'll know.


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## delta88

turnera said:


> FYI, when I was dealing with the same issues, and the principal of the school was MY FRIEND and lived NEXT DOOR to us, it became quite clear that HER first priority, over our friendship, was HER JOB.
> 
> And it then became MY JOB to protect MY CHILD from the school district. We even had a phone recording of a teacher from the district lying to the parent, to protect the school, over the child's best interest.
> 
> Remember that ANY teacher's main interest is to protect HER JOB.
> 
> As one teacher told me, you will be here for a few years, I will be here for much longer.


Turnera, what route did you take if you don't mind my asking? I'm not okay with this whole situation and think I should start acting that way. Going to speak with the one lawyer who seemed less interesting in making future phone consults and easy money for himself.

Apparently I can file the petition for divorce myself and already have the court forms after looking into the matter myself. Doesn't seem like much for paperwork $2000 actually. The fee is only $ 200 to file too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## delta88

Manchester said:


> Only to a point. Some will say "never give up on your kids" but that's just BS because depending on how old they are, they are making a decision not to want to be with you and they need to accept the consequences even if it's due to mom's influence.
> 
> You can't live your life around them. When that point is reached, you'll know.


Thanks Manchester, I can see exactly what you're saying and did the same thing to my father without realizing at the time. 

But I am still their dad and as such the will listen to me and know that I'm right when it comes to responsibility. Sort if tell them the way it will be type of thing. 

My kids mother told me she'd give me 50/50 split custody if I move to the city. She would let me take them when I want. Like she has sole custody or something in her mind...NFW that will fly this time. Let me my arse.

Going to prepare my argument to the judge and have my concerns all organized as well so I have all my ducks in a row. If he asks the boys about her going to bars and leaving them alone her goose will start cooking. Then throw in her family criminal history and the investigation for smoking pot with a child in her care and a theme develops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

DNA test came back tonight positive conclusive for paternity on both samples to 99.999% probability. Thems my boys!!! 🤗
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

delta88 said:


> Turnera, what route did you take if you don't mind my asking? I'm not okay with this whole situation and think I should start acting that way. Going to speak with the one lawyer who seemed less interesting in making future phone consults and easy money for himself.
> 
> Apparently I can file the petition for divorce myself and already have the court forms after looking into the matter myself. Doesn't seem like much for paperwork $2000 actually. The fee is only $ 200 to file too...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, my situation revolved around a rumor started about my H abusing our daughter, brought about by my vengeful stepmother. It spread like wildfire in our neighborhood, and by the time we had to move away, it had morphed into my H being a child sexual predator. The deal with the school was that at the open house, one of the TEACHERS told my daughter's best friend's mother that she should not let her child be around us. So I went to the principal, my next door neighbor, and told her that I expected the school to do something about it. She went to the school board, they told her to do nothing, she did nothing, we lost our friendship, and the rumors continued and flourished until our daughter had only one friend left. We finally decided to move from our dream home when a kid came up to DD in 6th grade and asked her what her dad was doing to her.

We should have sued. Many times. Many people. But we didn't. So we ended up being run out of town.


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## delta88

Got my referral and I am going to petition for divorce everyone. Or at least those that are still following.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Good for you. It's about damn time.


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## delta88

bandit.45 said:


> Good for you. It's about damn time.


Glad you guys didn't give up on me. The x sent me me a text saying she has all her stuff and is moved out now. Sounds like something I can use down the road so I took a screen shot and emailed it to myself. 

Locks are now changed and blocked her number. What sucks about this whole ordeal is how my boys stop contacting me every time this has happened. I don't blame them for any off it but the pain I feel doesn't seem to care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

The truth always rises to the surface. Your boys will come back someday when the truth visits them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

bandit.45 said:


> The truth always rises to the surface. Your boys will come back someday when the truth visits them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks bandit. I don't want to force my kids to live with me. Obviously that's the wrong way to go about things. Just want joint custody and the percentage will be worked out with what the boys want to do.

Parenting is for a lifetime and I know they'll need a strong father when they become men and I will be waiting. And obviously I will be there for them right now as well but don't think imposing decisions will help maintain our trust and relationship. 

Either way I'm in their lives for good and will never walk away from my children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MSalmoides

...


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## delta88

I figured I would update my situation for others to learn off of. Currently I am still separated from October 2016 and I'm waiting for a settlement to come through to file for divorce.

It's strange but I ended up doing well in the rural community where we purchased our house and now have decent paying local work; 2 minute commute actually. Strange part is I wanted to stay in the city and the ex was the primary motivation for moving out here. What it does provide is about 100km of ex buffer zone and a better quality of life for me. She was motioning to want to work on our relationship to move back. The problem is it would be great to have the boys home but I would not be able to live myself as a man.

Interesting she's a financial wreck now and a runaway train of a mess. Actually I feel bad for the man she makes her next victim but that's no longer my problem. Living the rest of my life in a lie doesn't sound very appealing.

My oldest son will be 18 this September and younger boy is 15 and all I can do is be there for them when they need me. The road ahead is unknown but I will have to put one foot in front of the other until I get healthy and happy. This whole situation had enabled me to have some serious self-reflection and I'm 100% motivated to get where I want to be.


Happiness here I come 😊


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## Marc878

You've wasted enought time on this. Never look back. There's nothing there.


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## Graywolf2

delta88 said:


> i'm waiting for a settlement to come through to file for divorce.
> 
> A.	It's strange but i ended up *doing well *in the rural community where we purchased our house and now have *decent paying* local work.
> 
> B.	Interesting she's a* financial wreck *now and a runaway train of a mess.
> 
> C.	She was motioning to want to work on our relationship to move back.


*a+ b = c

*


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## Decorum

Glad for you! 

You are the only example of good and normal in a parent your boys have. They will carry that example in their perspective. It will influence them in ways they may not even realize.

Keep a good rapport with them, have their back.

Take care!


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## delta88

Thank you all for the support and advice offered in the 4 years? It took me to come around.

I never realized how focused on others my mindset went and instead of just "lightly reading" NMMNG I'm working through the book. Strange how one falls back to a comfort zone which actually is the source of the anguish. No free lunches...lol

It is now time for me to move on with my life and I hope being 44 isn't too late.


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## Marc878

If you're smart the following will get you where you need to be

Never answer a phone call from the X direct. Let it go to voicemail and only reply if it's needed. Get used to ignoring.

Texts/email the same. You do not have to nor should you reply to every communication.

All holidays/birthdays keep separate. No exceptions 

Pickups/drop offs limit to 3 minutes. No engagement. Get it done and LEAVE.

It may seem draconian but it works great. No other women is going to want and x in the mix.

You took to long ending this. Do the smart thing. You wasted 4 years of your life on a fools errand.

You can't get time/life back. Better completely wake up. This part is on you


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## NorseViking

Some printed divorce forms laying around so your wife can see them should shut her up.


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## NorseViking

delta88 said:


> Her family, who is responsible for her abuse has already told her they don't care about what she went through in her past. To deal with it. No apologies or recognition so she could move on with her life. So she moved on by not seeing any wrong doing these people had done to her while she was growing up and actually looking up to her abusers. Now I have become the anti-Christ in my wife's eyes.
> 
> Her family suffers from chronic alcohol abuse that goes back generations.
> 
> Anyhow, she mentioned she loves me more than anything but love isn't everything. What do you say to that one...


She is BROKEN inside.
Divorce or get her to IC.


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## jlg07

"Now she wants our third separation and says that she shouldn’t be putting me through this. By the time she came home, she flipped again and wants to come home and I can’t stop her until we settle. "

BS -- I would just tell her, OK let's separate. Make sure you DO separate your finances.
If you really want to find out what is going on, hire a PI -- they should be able to get answers quickly for you.
What she is doing is NOT being a wife - she wants to act single, then tell her that is what she will get.

Also, get to a lawyer just to find out the facts and get your plan together. What she is doing doesn't smell Kosher to me -- I would also check her cell phone/bill.

EDT: sorry, only read the first page -- didn't realize this has been going on for a while... Just divorce her -- the separation has been WAY too long.


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## turnera

Are you kidding? 44? That's the prime of life! Just don't pick anyone under 35. Yeah, they may be divorced, but so are you. They may have kids, but so do you. Great update.


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## delta88

Marc878 said:


> If you're smart the following will get you where you need to be
> 
> Never answer a phone call from the X direct. Let it go to voicemail and only reply if it's needed. Get used to ignoring.
> 
> Texts/email the same. You do not have to nor should you reply to every communication.
> 
> All holidays/birthdays keep separate. No exceptions
> 
> Pickups/drop offs limit to 3 minutes. No engagement. Get it done and LEAVE.
> 
> It may seem draconian but it works great. No other women is going to want and x in the mix.
> 
> You took to long ending this. Do the smart thing. You wasted 4 years of your life on a fools errand.
> 
> You can't get time/life back. Better completely wake up. This part is on you


Sounds like a good plan Marc. I cant go back in time so I won't rag on myself on being slow to the plate but I do own my lack of action. What I can change is everything ahead of me so at least I'm in the driver's seat going forward.

There is a local redhead lady I have my eye on now so I'm looking forward to getting to know...


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## delta88

turnera said:


> Are you kidding? 44? That's the prime of life! Just don't pick anyone under 35. Yeah, they may be divorced, but so are you. They may have kids, but so do you. Great update.


Thanks for the kind words Turnera! I suppose this is normal but I am no longer angry at the ex or coming from a place of being the helpless victim. I might not always do what everyone wants but I'm learning to focus on my feelings first.

It's new territory for me actually but find that the people who really love me want me to take good care of myself.


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## fj5e

All I can say is WOW!! I'm so sorry that you've went thru this. I'm glad u still believe in love & you're looking forward to a new relationship. 
I keep saying that once I'm out of my crumbling marriage that it will take a saint of a man to get me to try again. I'm 39 yrs old so I'm sure I'll come around but at this moment it makes me cringe to even think about potentially putting myself in this situation ever again.
So...kudos to u. 
My husband is narcissistic, controlling & could write a book on how to be a jerk. He blames me for everything, just like your wife did to u. Like we have any control over what they do. But it's real easy to just take the blame - isn't it? Any time my H does something crappy to me & I say something about it he says w/o fail, "well, if u would've done this/that, I wouldn't have done this/that." It's beyond ridiculous! I'm glad there's light at the end of your tunnel. Good luck!


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## delta88

Fj5e, it's terrible to hear the way your husband treated you. This is not the way marriage is supposed to be but got the cheaters script word for word. I never made her happy, we seemed more like roommates, I deserved to be happy, why do I make such a big deal out of stupid things (banging dudes), I love you but I need space, I'm moving away to work on our marriage. I could go on and on but in the end its just another broken person propped up by smoke and mirrors so they can make it through the day. When you look at it like that one is able to shift away from being a victim to just feeling pity for the person. 

For me this process has been a gradual but the last separation was October 2016. That's 2.5 years+. It's a long time and gave a chance to reflect and now I'd like the company of the opposite sex. I have no intention of getting into another serious relationship but come more from a place of companionship. Someone to enjoy spending time with and take it nice and slow.

All the best and feel free to message me, my ear is always bendable.


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## fj5e

Yeah, he told me he hasn't been happy for most of our marriage & that's 100% my fault. Now he just does whatever he wants. He's going on a 2 week vacation to Australia w/ his cousin in a few weeks. He went to Colorado w/ the same cousin last yr. The cousin isn't married so he can do whatever he wants...I don't blame him though. The excuse I got is that I ruin every trip we go on so he doesn't want to go anywhere w/ me. I won't get into my story here though. I posted on "considering seperation/divorce if ur interested. Nothing u haven't heard before I'm sure. 
It's funny how we adapt to this stuff. 6 mos ago I was falling apart & now I'm just ready to be done w/ it. I'm miserable & sad about all the yrs I've lost.


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## 3Xnocharm

fj5e said:


> Yeah, he told me he hasn't been happy for most of our marriage & that's 100% my fault. Now he just does whatever he wants. He's going on a 2 week vacation to Australia w/ his cousin in a few weeks. He went to Colorado w/ the same cousin last yr. The cousin isn't married so he can do whatever he wants...I don't blame him though. The excuse I got is that I ruin every trip we go on so he doesn't want to go anywhere w/ me. I won't get into my story here though. I posted on "considering seperation/divorce if ur interested. Nothing u haven't heard before I'm sure.
> It's funny how we adapt to this stuff. 6 mos ago I was falling apart & now I'm just ready to be done w/ it. I'm miserable & sad about all the yrs I've lost.




You’re leaving while he’s in Australia right?? Nudge nudge... I remember your posts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fj5e

Lol! That's the plan 3x!


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## 3Xnocharm

fj5e said:


> Lol! That's the plan 3x!




High five, girl!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turnera

fj5e said:


> Yeah, he told me he hasn't been happy for most of our marriage & that's 100% my fault. Now he just does whatever he wants. He's going on a 2 week vacation to Australia w/ his cousin in a few weeks. He went to Colorado w/ the same cousin last yr. The cousin isn't married so he can do whatever he wants...I don't blame him though. The excuse I got is that I ruin every trip we go on so he doesn't want to go anywhere w/ me. I won't get into my story here though. I posted on "considering seperation/divorce if ur interested. Nothing u haven't heard before I'm sure.
> It's funny how we adapt to this stuff. 6 mos ago I was falling apart & now I'm just ready to be done w/ it. I'm miserable & sad about all the yrs I've lost.


So you are going home and exposing the affair to everyone, right?


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## Dragan Jovanovic

I just can not believe that you are still legaly maried to that woman!


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## Stormguy2018

"My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me?"

Yes.


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## sokillme

Stormguy2018 said:


> "My question is does it sound like my wife is running the cheaters script on me?"
> 
> Yes.


Keep reading. :grin2:


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