# Are there that many Jack A$$ men



## think positive

So my wife works in the financial field. There have been several instances where she has received unwelcomed advances from coworkers or x-cowerkers while attending offsite company parties. 

Like many women she is a "toucher" and perhaps men cannot decipher freeindly touching vs. flirting. There have been 4 men over the past year that have not subtly propositioned her. These men all know she is married and still pursue aggressively. I am by no means an angel in the case that I find many women attractive and am guilty of wondering what they may be like to be with sexually, admired their lady parts, face or whatever...OK to be truthful I look at women and admire them and even am aroused by other women, but would never actually make advances. I would only do that if I were totally unhappy. 

I should point out that spouses are not involved in these outings but, perhaps men are assuming "hey if she is out without her hubby..." 

My questions are;

1-Are there men that are that clueless that they can't diffentiate between "hey you are nice" and "I want to fu$% you. 

2-Is it a fishing contest IE if I ask 25 women for no-strings extramarital fling that some will bit? 

3-She has a big rack and candidly doesn't disquise them (though she in no way could be accused of dressing ****ty (though some of her outfits can be revealing especially when she bends over). I don't relish her being oogled or hit on but, on the other hand don't expect her to dress like a nun as a result. 

4) Could she be unknowingly putting out a vibe. She has come home upset about these advances. Part of me is not sure if she is trying to let me know that she is still attractive to other men (though not sure if I am being strange.


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## Evinrude58

Men are usually into approaching women when they think they have a good chance. If she is a toucher and has a good body and dresses to show it off-- you have your answer.

Don't put out the bait if you don't want bites.

Yes, there are a lot of jerks out there. You already knew that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReidWright

yes, there are.

the sad thing is, that it must work sometimes, or they wouldn't do it!

At work or work events, however, this stuff is harassment at a certain point.


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## cons

think positive said:


> So my wife works in the financial field. There have been several instances where she has received unwelcomed advances from coworkers or x-cowerkers while attending offsite company parties.
> 
> Like many women she is a "toucher" and perhaps men cannot decipher freeindly touching vs. flirting. There have been 4 men over the past year that have not subtly propositioned her. These men all know she is married and still pursue aggressively. I am by no means an angel in the case that I find many women attractive and am guilty of wondering what they may be like to be with sexually, admired their lady parts, face or whatever...OK to be truthful I look at women and admire them and even am aroused by other women, but *would never actually make advances. I would only do that if I were totally unhappy*.
> 
> I should point out that spouses are not involved in these outings but, perhaps men are assuming "hey if she is out without her hubby..."
> 
> My questions are;
> 
> 1-Are there men that are that clueless that they can't diffentiate between "hey you are nice" and "I want to fu$% you.
> 
> 2-Is it a fishing contest IE if I ask 25 women for no-strings extramarital fling that some will bit?
> 
> 3-She has a big rack and candidly doesn't disquise them (though she in no way could be accused of dressing ****ty (though some of her outfits can be revealing especially when she bends over). I don't relish her being oogled or hit on but, on the other hand don't expect her to dress like a nun as a result.
> 
> 4) Could she be unknowingly putting out a vibe. She has come home upset about these advances. Part of me is not sure if she is trying to let me know that she is still attractive to other men (though not sure if I am being strange.


Perhaps these men think as you do and they are totally unhappy...therefore, making advances toward your wife.


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## jb02157

Hey if she is going to flaunt her boobs there will be guys ready to look and figure that she is flirting with them. If she doesn't want to get hit on, she wouldn't be wearing what she's wearing. Truth is, she likes being hit on and all takers can just be written off as *******s and perverts. Perhaps you should re-name your post "Are there really that many married women who willingly flaunt their chest, trying to get hit on?".


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## MRR

cons said:


> Perhaps these men think as you do and they are totally unhappy...therefore, making advances toward your wife.


This is exactly what stuck out to me about the OP too. He would not do anything like that...unless he was unhappy. Which basically says, under certain circumstances, I too would aggressively pursue a married woman.


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## 2ndchanceGuy

OP, yes they are referred to on the street as Man Wh***s ( I hope this word doesn't get me put in a" time out ")


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## ConanHub

Yup but classy women shoot them down before they get started.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

I just got back from an event filled with high-T I banker, investment types. There is a higher than usual percentage of a$$hole in these groups for sure, as the roles select for aggressiveness.

She needs to sharpen her elbows if she wants to run with this crowd. Saying F-off in a firm, friendly way is a good skill to have.

And yes, tell her to be less touchy and cover up so not to be misinterpreted.


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## ConanHub

sapientia said:


> I just got back from an event filled with high-T I banker, investment types. There is a higher than usual percentage of a$$hole in these groups for sure, as the roles select for aggressiveness.
> 
> She needs to sharpen her elbows if she wants to run with this crowd. Saying F-off in a firm, friendly way is a good skill to have.
> 
> And yes, tell her to be less touchy and cover up so not to be misinterpreted.


Making the occasional appearance when these types are around your wife might go a long way as well.

Nothing puts the chill on their little dycks faster than having to look a husband in the eye.

Been there, done that and have the T-shirt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## New_Beginnings

I know men can be sexual beings and by no way am I (a married woman) touchy friendly with a co-worker, or another man other than my husband. They might take that as a sign to take possible action. I don't really blame the man for questioning her stance... To me it's borderline flirting and sorry your wife needs to learn her own boundaries. I've seen women too come at married men. There's many who show little to no respect for others in marriages.


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## ConanHub

How come she hasn't learned to shut that shyt down before it starts?

She still touching guys at parties where spouses aren't welcome?

Dumbass idea anyway to have parties and exclude SO's.

Orchestrated and attended by the perpetually divorced.

Brilliant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn

I was the only female broker among 50 males. They are many as*hol*s as this is an aggressive environment of win at all cost. Lots of alpha males who believes that they are the greatest and the best. We were taught not to accept no.

When I first started I was fresh meat. I was young, unsophisticated and naïve. Everyone thought I was available from my fellow brokers to the customers. I quickly understood that in order for me to survive I had to learned to speak up for myself. I let everyone know that I was there to work. I am not going to date the people I work with nor was I going to drink with anyone.

I became friends with a few of the guys who were respectable and married. I went to company events and had a few sips, say hi and went home. The customers were the worst, from the old to the young. I heard so many sappy stories of how unhappy they were and if only I could join them at the Bull Run for a drink. Yeah right. I told them straight up to go home to their wives and kids, not happening. I love your commission not you buddy. But was fun telling them no.

Your wife needs to keep her hands to herself, put on her professional face and tell them to back off. She might also be trying to gauge your response to see how you react. Is he jealous enough? 

After, I got married I never told my H of any of these issues. Why worry him, if I can handle it myself. 

Only story I told him was about the guy who invited me for a weekend of alligator hunting. He was old and from Texas. He wanted to introduce me to country living.


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## sapientia

brooklynAnn said:


> I love your commission not you buddy.


:grin2:


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## always_alone

Yes, there are quite a number of jackass men, and women are often put in the position of having to manage those guy's sexuality because they won't do it themselves. Indeed, the behaviour is typically excused as a "boys being boys" thing.

As a woman, not only do you have to control your own behaviour, you are also responsible for the behaviour of horny dudes who feel entitled to treat women's bodies as objects for their own pleasure.


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## Bobby5000

So your wife smiles at men, touches them, wears low cut clothing and somehow manages to let you know what is happening. She needs to not touch men (does she also touch the fat guy in IT who spells a little funky).


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## sapientia

Here's an example of what can happen from this kind of behaviour, even if it was meant as a "joke"

Marcel Aubut resigns as COC head after sexual harassment allegations | CTV News

People need to act professional in the workplace, including networking events. Save the innuendo, etc. for home. I'm petite and objectively quite attractive (note: I really don't care about such things, smart >> pretty ). I rarely get hit on b/c I don't present an accepting vibe to that kind of thing. If anything, men are a bit afraid of me that way I think, and I'm good with that.

Tell your wife to err on the side of classy to avoid this kind of thing in future.

EDIT - to be clear, I don't think the women involved with M.Aubut were at fault at all, just saying there are obvious behaviours like your wife's to avoid.


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## stephscarlett

So it's ok to make advances on a woman if you're married but totally unhappy? Jeez.


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## tech-novelist

think positive said:


> So my wife works in the financial field. There have been several instances where she has received unwelcomed advances from coworkers or x-cowerkers while attending offsite company parties.
> 
> Like many women she is a "toucher" and perhaps men cannot decipher freeindly touching vs. flirting. There have been 4 men over the past year that have not subtly propositioned her. These men all know she is married and still pursue aggressively. I am by no means an angel in the case that I find many women attractive and am guilty of wondering what they may be like to be with sexually, admired their lady parts, face or whatever...OK to be truthful I look at women and admire them and even am aroused by other women, but would never actually make advances. I would only do that if I were totally unhappy.
> 
> I should point out that spouses are not involved in these outings but, perhaps men are assuming "hey if she is out without her hubby..."
> 
> My questions are;
> 
> 1-Are there men that are that clueless that they can't diffentiate between "hey you are nice" and "I want to fu$% you.


Most men tend to err on the side of "I want to fvck you", whereas most women tend to err on the side of "You are nice" (or actually, "you are creepy"). This is due to the differing biological cost to each sex of making an error of the opposite type; that is, for a man to assume that a woman is not interested in sex is to miss a chance at a relatively free reproductive opportunity, whereas for a woman to assume that a man is willing to support the result of such an encounter is very hazardous.



think positive said:


> 2-Is it a fishing contest IE if I ask 25 women for no-strings extramarital fling that some will bit?


Yes. See above.




think positive said:


> 3-She has a big rack and candidly doesn't disquise them (though she in no way could be accused of dressing ****ty (though some of her outfits can be revealing especially when she bends over). I don't relish her being oogled or hit on but, on the other hand don't expect her to dress like a nun as a result.


She should not wear outfits that are so revealing, other than for you. Period.



think positive said:


> 4) Could she be unknowingly putting out a vibe. She has come home upset about these advances. Part of me is not sure if she is trying to let me know that she is still attractive to other men (though not sure if I am being strange).


Possibly. How old is she?


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## always_alone

sapientia said:


> Here's an example of what can happen from this kind of behaviour, even if it was meant as a "joke"
> 
> Marcel Aubut resigns as COC head after sexual harassment allegations | CTV News
> .


At least he had the class to admit that his behaviour was inapprooriate, and that he would adjust it accordingly. He didn't feel the need to blame the women for what they were wearing or how attractive they were.


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## Evinrude58

I work with lots of women. There are a couple of attractive women there. Married. The way they carry themselves and act in a dignified way, I, nor any other men I work with, would consider flirting with them. They don't touch men, they don't make sexual jokes, they don't wear revealing clothing. 
Part of this problem is likely your wife. As I said, men don't like rejection and they have to think there's a chance or they won't pursue. Now, if your wife is THAT darned good looking, some if it might be men that are dumb, or men that are just *******s, or men that are fishing as you said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katiecrna

The whole thing about if women dress a certain way invites sexual advances is such bull**** to me. Yes we like to look nice, and maybe we like to show off our figure, we only have one life and our body won't look this good forever. Wanting to look good, and even get compliments from people is not the same as aggressive sexual advances! If someone is wearing a wedding ring, they are off limits! Come on people have some respect. Say you look nice, and keep it moving. 
Men have this horrible idea in their sexist heads that if women dress a certain way they are "asking for it". That is 100% WRONG and its what men tell themselves to make them feel better about being the scum bags they really are. "Um well look at what she is wearing" Insert-> blame it on her. 
People today have no respect for marriage. If you see someone with a wedding ring on, please keep it moving. The end.
There is such a glorified, romantic notion about having an affair, or being the exciting mistress to a married man, or how exciting it must be. The reality is... Affairs are horrible, and they always end up bad. They are never like the dream you make them out to be.
To the OP... Yes there are a lot of stupid, bad men out there.


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## straightshooter

Men have been chasing women since prehistoric times and it ain't going to stop.
Now that we have established that buddy, stop making excuses for your wife and blaming men.
(1) women in business ,especially in a male dominated office , do not need to be dressing in revealing attire. And ladies stop the bull **** about you it's fine to put your boobs out there for everyone to see because you are only young once. No, a woman's dress does not make it OK to sexually harass her, but your wife knows Damm well if she is in business what is BUSINESS ATTIRE , and what is attire she would wear to happy hour or a GNO.
(2) women get pursued from the moment they hit puberty and your wife is obviously putting out some vibes, even unintentionally, to get aggressively hit on constantly. My wife is 5"8" with blond hair down past her should blades, is an ex major college cheerleader, and she can make you feel like ice water has been poured on your balls by just her look at you. Tell your wife to keep her hands OFF other men. It really ****ing works.

Yes there are ****heads in every industry, but if this is a constant, then your wife needs to figure out how to take some simple steps to stop it.

And by the way, there is the really simple thing like telling some ass hole at work that propositions her that the next time he does it she will be in HR quicker than he can blink. 

If this is a problem so large that you are posting here, your wife is the solution, not complaining about men


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
sexual innuendo, touching, flirting do not belong in the workplace. Its to easy for signs to be misread, boundaries crossed.


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## always_alone

straightshooter said:


> Men have been chasing women since prehistoric times and it ain't going to stop.
> Now that we have established that buddy, stop making excuses for your wife and blaming men.


Yep, there it is: boys will be boys and it is women's responsibility to manage their sexuality because they won't do it themselves.

Sad that this is such a prevailing attitude.


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## Haiku

In the workplace she should consider modifying her behavior to not be a 'toucher'. Not only can it be misunderstood by that person, nearby coworkers can misunderstand in the same way and label her as well as possibly lead to rumors and injure reputations.


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## rzmpf

The problem is you don't really know how your wife behaves at these functions. It could easily be that you would find her behaviour inappropriate if you were to watch her. A big part of communication and especially sexual communication is nonverbal, its smiling, eye contact, body posture, touching, tone of voice, laughing etc. 
Some people are not self-aware enough to recognize what signals they are sending out. Some are and they decide to not send these signals to not provoke unwanted reactions and some use these signals for boosting their ego when they get hit on (and some use them to get something going).
I don't think your wife is too shy to tell these men to eff off because I don't think she would be in this industry if she weren't able to handle herself. Threaten with HR if they continue to pursue and go to HR if they do. Because in that case they are just a-holes. But she should analyse her behaviour and the image she projects to others by her behaviour and clothing. More professional distance can help her, button up one or two more buttons of her blouse won't hurt either. Is there alcohol involved in these events?

And as others have said, it's not unlikely that she likes the attention she gets from those men and from you after telling you about it. This is most likely a big gray area and not an issue of black and white (complete antisocial a-holes vs helpless innocent wife), it's human interaction and it takes two to dance.


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## always_alone

intheory said:


> It's also interesting that you wouldn't see a guy (other than a rock star or bartender) going to work in the type of outfit I described. Why? Because men expect to be taken seriously for what they have to contribute as an employee: their brains, their education and training, their ideas. *I'd encourage women to strive for the same.*


I find it odd that you are assuming that OPs wife is showing up in the sort of inappropriate attire you describe above. He said quite clearly that she didn't dress like a slvt, just that maybe she could try harder to cover up.

This, as you are already well aware, difficult for a woman with large breasts. You can wear a turtleneck and a blazer, and still some people will be noticing your breasts, and refusing to take your seriously for your education, brains, and competence.

At my work, I would say the majority of guys are quite able to remain professional, to focus on the job, rather than on a woman's boobs, and to refrain from propositioning their co-workers or making inappropriate comments. Then there are those who can't, and I really don't understand why we should be making excuses for them or bending over backwards to accommodate their lack of self control.

Everybody has the responsibility of remaining professional in the workplace and should not be foisting that responsibility onto someone else. 

As for dress code, it varies from place to place. In the article posted earlier, the guy was working with Olympic athletes who routinely wear sports bras and shorty shorts as their professional attire. Does that excuse his harassment of them? Not in the slightest, IMHO. 

Intheory, as I said earlier, I totally get that women are expected to take responsibility for men's sexuality. But I don't see it as reasonable or fair. And the same would be true if you were to reverse the sexes. In your example, I *would* hold the women accountable for not being able to keep it in their pants.


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## straightshooter

*Yep, there it is: boys will be boys and it is women's responsibility to manage their sexuality because they won't do it themselves.

Sad that this is such a prevailing attitude.*

Well, Always, its obvious you are one of those enlightened women who feels there is no such thing as being accountable for your action and that men are the only ones who need to control themselves.

sorry, there is a difference between appropriate business attire, appropriate business conduct, and keeping your hands off members of the opposite sex in the workplace. you obviously fell its Ok to paraDE AROUND ANY WAY YOU LIKE AND THEN GET PISSED OFF WITH ANY RESPONSE YOU DO NOT LIKE. 

OP, if your wife is constantly getting AGGRESSIVELY hit on , and not just looked at or flirted with, you can take it to the bank that she is not doing a hell of a lot to discourage it. 

So my advice to you is to ask her why she thinks she is being singled out for this illegal workplace behavior. because I do not believe she is working with a bunch of sexual supermen who are so ignorant that they cannot see that a woman is clearly not interested. 
you might want to get her a book on "boundaries"


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## always_alone

straightshooter said:


> sorry, there is a difference between appropriate business attire, appropriate business conduct, and keeping your hands off members of the opposite sex in the workplace. you obviously fell its Ok to paraDE AROUND ANY WAY YOU LIKE AND THEN GET PISSED OFF WITH ANY RESPONSE YOU DO NOT LIKE.


Again, this assumption that OP's wife is walking around in tassles and a gstring, and giving lap dances to all her male co-workers.

Because if a woman is being hit on *she* is to blame.

No, straightshooter, I do not believe women should be given a free pass for acting unprofessionally. If OP's wife isn't professional in her workplace, isn't following dress codes, isn't doing her job, then she should be called on it, warned, fired.

But why you want to give guys a free pass because the poor dears can't help themselves is beyond me.


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## straightshooter

*But why you want to give guys a free pass because the poor dears can't help themselves is beyond me.*

No ,the guys do not get a free pass. And not giving them a free pass means keeping her hands off them.

No mention here of what she has done to ward off this unwanted aggressive attention other than to complain or just tell husband.

so ALONE, if you were getting this kind of direct propositions, what would you do, just go home and whiNe to hubby and keep being "handsy' at work???? or maybe she is not whinig but he is noticing it and is blaming it all of the men.

ALONE, do you know how to aggressively tell a man to **** off. my guess is yes. Well, OP has not given any indication his wife is doing anything but putting up with it. If that is the case you tell me WHY????

The point being the OP's wife is an intelligent adult, and it is hard to believe she is just so staggering voluptuous that these men for no reason at all cannot stop slobbering all over her with no outward acceptance or encouragement in body language or verbal communication from her. 

My only point is he needs to stop blaming everyone else and not askl his wife why she has not put a stop to it in no uncertain terms. Seems like there is really no need for a forum for her to want to do that.


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## always_alone

straightshooter said:


> so ALONE, if you were getting this kind of direct propositions, what would you do, just go home and whiNe to hubby and keep being "handsy' at work???? or maybe she is not whinig but he is noticing it and is blaming it all of the men.
> 
> ALONE, do you know how to aggressively tell a man to **** off. my guess is yes. Well, OP has not given any indication his wife is doing anything but putting up with it. If that is the case you tell me WHY????


I used to have this supervisor that propositioned me. There was nothing particularly attractive or enticing about me when he asked me to be his sex slave; this was how he treated all of his female staff.

Yes, I am very good at telling people to fvck off and I was able to shut him down. None of my co-workers were able to, however. Because they were concerned about performance reviews, promotions, good references, they felt the need to tread lightly and be polite.

And in many ways, they were right to do so. The behaviour required to get some people to back off is the same kind of behaviour that quickly gets you labeled a b*tch, an ice queen, someone who is *not* a team player and doesn't deserve recognition or promotion, no matter how good the quality of work.

Before OP goes off half-****ed on his wife for being a slvt, he might want to ask which guys are putting her in this position, what role they have, and how many other women in the department are whining about him/them. And whether or not she does risk losing her job for refusing to go along with the workplace "culture".


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## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Again, this assumption that OP's wife is walking around in tassles and a gstring, and giving lap dances to all her male co-workers.
> 
> Because if a woman is being hit on *she* is to blame.
> 
> No, straightshooter, I do not believe women should be given a free pass for acting unprofessionally. If OP's wife isn't professional in her workplace, isn't following dress codes, isn't doing her job, then she should be called on it, warned, fired.
> 
> But why you want to give guys a free pass because the poor dears can't help themselves is beyond me.


It Isn't the gender issue you are making it.

I have probably had to shut down more unwanted female attention than OP's wife.

Both men and women have to learn to deal with it and shut it down. That is the reality we live in.

Would it be nice if men and women could all handle their shyt and not hit on married people? Yes.

Again, not a gender issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> I used to have this supervisor that propositioned me. There was nothing particularly attractive or enticing about me when he asked me to be his sex slave; this was how he treated all of his female staff.
> 
> Yes, I am very good at telling people to fvck off and I was able to shut him down. None of my co-workers were able to, however. Because they were concerned about performance reviews, promotions, good references, they felt the need to tread lightly and be polite.
> 
> And in many ways, they were right to do so. The behaviour required to get some people to back off is the same kind of behaviour that quickly gets you labeled a b*tch, an ice queen, someone who is *not* a team player and doesn't deserve recognition or promotion, no matter how good the quality of work.
> 
> Before OP goes off half-****ed on his wife for being a slvt, he might want to ask which guys are putting her in this position, what role they have, and how many other women in the department are whining about him/them. And whether or not she does risk losing her job for refusing to go along with the workplace "culture".


I agree with not calling her a slvt and checking out her work situation.

I disagree with ever putting up with that behavior or toxic culture at work.

I have had it happen to me too. I have had false complaints and even lost a position because I gave a fvcked up b1tch the cold shoulder.

My wife and family all come first and stupid b1tches and asshats need shut out and down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> It Isn't the gender issue you are making it.
> 
> I have probably had to shut down more unwanted female attention than OP's wife.
> 
> Both men and women have to learn to deal with it and shut it down. That is the reality we live in.
> 
> Would it be nice if men and women could all handle their shyt and not hit on married people? Yes.
> 
> Again, not a gender issue.



Well, Conan, you should stop dressing like such a slvt at work and inviting women to come on to you all the time. I mean, if that many women are coming after you, you *must* be sending out some kind of vibe asking for it. It *must* be the way you are flashing your dimples or flexing your muscles. Why are you acting so unprofessionally that you are getting that much attention? You are too friendly, too approachable. Maybe you should get a baggier suit. Stop styling your hair.

After all, you *must* not have any boundaries or be asking for it or....something.

See what I mean?


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## Haiku

always_alone said:


> ...
> Before OP goes off half-****ed on his wife for being a slvt..





ConanHub said:


> I agree with not calling her a slvt and checking out her work situation.


Did I miss it? The op never said or felt anything of the sort. I thought he felt quite the opposite. How did we get to this?


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## always_alone

Haiku said:


> Did I miss it? The op never said or felt anything of the sort. I thought he felt quite the opposite. How did we get to this?


It's not what the OP said--it's all the responses that are insisting it is *her* fault that men are acting inappropriately.


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## straightshooter

No Always, no one is calling her a ****. What they are saying is why has she not taken some action within her organization to stop it.

And your response seems to be that women should put up with harassment and propositions rather than go to HR if the job is important to them or if the guy is in a position of power.

All anyone is asking is why OP's wife has not taking repossibility herself for stopping it in its tracks, and you are portraying her as a victim of mean old men. 

And why is it wrong to ask why she cannot stop putting her hands on there's men in a workplace. You are reading and deciding your own interpretation of what anyone is saying.

OP, if you know these men, you need to tell your wife either she stops it or you will get involved. If she does not want you to stop it or help her, then she accepts responsibility. You just sucking it up and putting up with it is not the answer or you would not be here posting.


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## always_alone

straightshooter said:


> And your response seems to be that women should put up with harassment and propositions rather than go to HR if the job is important to them or if the guy is in a position of power.


Not at all. By all means, complain to HR, tell whoever it is to fvck off.

I just object to the insistence that the men deserve a free pass (because of course she is *too* friendly, *too* attractive, her dress is clearly *too* provacative, and therefore it is *her* fault that this is happening to her.)

Tell me, are you going to chastise Conan for being too sexy? Apparently he gets hit on way more than OP's wife ever does. Why isn't it *his* fault for being too friendly, too provocative?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
An interesting point, I hadn't though of it that way. Its a little tricky to figure out how to clearly define it, but intentionally seductive dress cold be viewed as harassment. 

It needs to be a pretty high bar, and a rule like that could easily be implemented in a biased fashion. I don't want to see people who happen to be physically attractive, be held to a different standard. I don't want puritan dress codes either, but really extreme stuff should not be allowed. 

I like the concept, but I fear it might often be applied in a biased fashion 




intheory said:


> always,
> snip
> 
> I've come to believe that dressing seductively in the workplace is, in itself, a form of sexual harassment. Show the goods, be sexy and alluring; then blame the people that respond to your cues.
> 
> I guess that's why there used to be dress codes at work. A "dress code" clause should be part of every workplace anti-sexual harassment policy


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## chillymorn

next time she tells you someone was hitting on her say I a alarmed voice who was hitting on you. the find this guy and have a private talk with him.......hey buddy if you hit on my wife again you will need a dr.

got it ........no really do you understand where I'm coming from.

if the dude is married call his wife and explain the unwanted attention this a$$hat is giving your wife.

now if she all of a sudden down plays it then she most likely enjoys it. and that a whole different can of worms.


----------



## jld

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> An interesting point, I hadn't though of it that way. Its a little tricky to figure out how to clearly define it, but intentionally seductive dress cold be viewed as harassment.


Richard. Come on. How far is this going to go?

_"I think that hiring that good-looking man might be an occasion of sin, of temptation, for the ladies in the office. Just knowing such a good-looking guy is around could even be considered harassment of them. They might feel all flustered around him and not be able to keep their thoughts from wandering to his . . . Nope, we just cannot hire him."_


----------



## chillymorn

chillymorn said:


> next time she tells you someone was hitting on her say In an alarmed voice who was hitting on you. then find this guy and have a private talk with him.......hey buddy if you hit on my wife again you will need a dr.
> 
> got it ........no really do you understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> if the dude is married call his wife and explain the unwanted attention this a$$hat is giving your wife.
> 
> now if she all of a sudden down plays it then she most likely enjoys it. and that a whole different can of worms.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

katiecrna said:


> The whole thing about if women dress a certain way invites sexual advances is such bull**** to me. Yes we like to look nice, and maybe we like to show off our figure, we only have one life and our body won't look this good forever. Wanting to look good, and even get compliments from people is not the same as aggressive sexual advances! If someone is wearing a wedding ring, they are off limits! Come on people have some respect. Say you look nice, and keep it moving.
> Men have this horrible idea in their sexist heads that if women dress a certain way they are "asking for it". That is 100% WRONG and its what men tell themselves to make them feel better about being the scum bags they really are. "Um well look at what she is wearing" Insert-> blame it on her.
> People today have no respect for marriage. If you see someone with a wedding ring on, please keep it moving. The end.
> There is such a glorified, romantic notion about having an affair, or being the exciting mistress to a married man, or how exciting it must be. The reality is... Affairs are horrible, and they always end up bad. They are never like the dream you make them out to be.
> To the OP... Yes there are a lot of stupid, bad men out there.


If a woman dresses and/or acts sexually she will receive sexual advances, you want to show off your figure? show it off to your husband


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

intheory said:


> After you check your appearance in the mirror before you leave the house; *you don't really ever see yourself.* So, the way you dress is partly to have an effect on other people. Other people are the ones looking at you. When women say, "I dress this way for myself", this is what they mean, whether they realize it or not.
> 
> It's nice to have a pretty face or good body; and to wear flattering clothes, make-up, jewelry --- whatever you like, to enhance your appearance. Everyone should invest some time and effort to look their best.
> 
> Deliberately soliciting compliments from the opposite sex, when you are married, is entering "slippery slope" territory. Why do you need someone other than your spouse to re-affirm your physical attractiveness? But, _at work_, this is not acceptable. *Work is work*; not a club or a dating service.
> 
> Personal story; I'm a woman. I have 36DD breasts. When I reached a C cup in high school, is when I noticed my chest (not my face) being looked at. Over the years, especially when I started working, the looks/comments began to make me feel uncomfortable. The weirdest was having a co-worker tell me that *her husband* thought I had big breasts for the size of my body.  (he saw me once at a social function)
> 
> I started dressing differently. And IMMEDIATELY noticed a difference. No-one tries to get a look through two layers of relaxed fitting clothing. Same with skirts and jeans. After getting told that a skirt looked good from behind, or asked to wear my "tight Levi's" more often; I stopped doing that at work.
> 
> And it makes a difference. The comments stop.
> 
> I don't blame men for being attracted to women's bodies. I can't handle being looked at that way *at work*. I want respect.
> 
> OP's wife knows when she bends over the guys can see her cleavage. If it bothers her, she can wear high necked opaque blouses. Pretty, attractive and feminine; but just showing less breast.
> 
> She does this because she loves that guys look. And she probably loves telling her husband that they look.
> 
> OP, if it bothers you - tell your wife. I don't want guys at work treating you like a piece of meat - please dress modestly and business like at work.
> 
> Save her sexy, plunging necklines for a romantic night out with you at her side :wink2:


Great post


----------



## sapientia

always_alone said:


> At least he had the class to admit that his behaviour was inapprooriate, and that he would adjust it accordingly. He didn't feel the need to blame the women for what they were wearing or how attractive they were.


Oh no. He wasn't ever admitting this except that multiple women came forward. By that time, he had no choice to admit. Class had nothing to do with this.


----------



## sapientia

always_alone said:


> Yep, there it is: boys will be boys and it is women's responsibility to manage their sexuality because they won't do it themselves.
> 
> Sad that this is such a prevailing attitude.


It's not sad, it's predictable and, therefore, preventable. "Managing" is having the brains to dress appropriately for a business environment.

Not managing, is rubbing yourself down with raw meat before stepping into the tiger's cage. The fool would be lucky to come away with only a lick or two.


----------



## Buddy400

think positive said:


> My questions are;
> 
> 1-Are there men that are that clueless that they can't diffentiate between "hey you are nice" and "I want to fu$% you.


*YES*


----------



## Buddy400

And the "touching" and revealing clothing doesn't help.

She shouldn't have to alter her dress, but she should stop with the touching.


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## sapientia

Buddy400 said:


> And the "touching" and revealing clothing doesn't help.
> 
> She shouldn't have to alter her dress, but she should stop with the touching.


Yes, I agree that according to the law, a woman can dress like a ho (not saying the OP's wife did) and run a business meeting. 

Is she foolish to do so? I will refer back to the poster's comment that men tend not to dress like Fabio in their meetings.

PS - high powered men tend to make their statements with expensive suits and shoes. For women in this environment, they should do the same. I own some pretty nice shoes and handbags for this purpose.


----------



## Buddy400

Bobby5000 said:


> does she also touch the fat guy in IT who smells a little funky?


Great point!


----------



## Buddy400

tech-novelist said:


> This is due to the differing biological cost to each sex of making an error of the opposite type; that is, for a man to assume that a woman is not interested in sex is to miss a chance at a relatively free reproductive opportunity, whereas for a woman to assume that a man is willing to support the result of such an encounter is very hazardous.


The interesting thing is that this has largely changed. The woman can control whether or not she has a child but the man can not control whether or not he pays 18 years of child support.

But our lizard brains haven't caught up with the times. Don't know if they ever will.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> Yep, there it is: boys will be boys and it is women's responsibility to manage their sexuality because they won't do it themselves.
> 
> Sad that this is such a prevailing attitude.


You seem to have missed this part of his comment:

"No, a woman's dress does not make it OK to sexually harass her"


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OP, your wife's appearance does not always trigger these aggressive pursuits, hell the most aggressive pursuit EVER towards me was over something I had written eloquently and before he ever laid eyes on me, rattled me to the core, so there are many things about a woman that can trigger a man's lust for her, but she can pay mind to her appearance, behavior and attitudes in settings where the risk is higher. And, yes, she could be totally playing you and them. So, heads up.


----------



## MarriedDude

always_alone said:


> Not at all. By all means, complain to HR, tell whoever it is to fvck off.
> 
> I just object to the insistence that the men deserve a free pass (because of course she is *too* friendly, *too* attractive, her dress is clearly *too* provacative, and therefore it is *her* fault that this is happening to her.)
> 
> Tell me, are you going to chastise Conan for being too sexy? *Apparently he gets hit on way more than OP's wife ever does. Why isn't it *his* fault for being too friendly, too provocative?*


It's just a mountain of sexy tragedy

It would seem clear that the only fault lies with the a$$hats that have no concept of context and no ability to monitor their own behavior. If people would simply be polite and kind to each other...so much of this BS would just stop. 

Too Bad.


----------



## MarriedDude

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> An interesting point, I hadn't though of it that way. Its a little tricky to figure out how to clearly define it, but intentionally seductive dress cold be viewed as harassment.
> 
> It needs to be a pretty high bar, and a rule like that could easily be implemented in a biased fashion. I don't want to see people who happen to be physically attractive, be held to a different standard. I don't want puritan dress codes either, but really extreme stuff should not be allowed.
> 
> I like the concept, but I fear it might often be applied in a biased fashion


Solution....EVERYONE must work nude....no matter the possibly painful, pinchy, dangley misshaps. 

Do you think that this would merely be an move to further eliminate a persons responsibility to control themselves?


----------



## MarriedDude

MarriedDude said:


> Solution....EVERYONE must work nude....no matter the possibly painful, pinchy, dangley misshaps.
> 
> Do you think that this would merely be an move to further eliminate a persons responsibility to control themselves?


A personal Experience: A large Prison Construction Project -we were installing and grouting the metal cell walls...going up 3 tiers...all scaffold and ladders.

The panel manufacturer sent their "Field Inspector" to review the installation and deal with some fab issues. She looked to be about 25-30 years old..super Hot and flirty as hell. She showed up on site (in winter..a massive hell of mud and debris...very cold...no heat...etc) wearing one of the smallest mini-skirts I have ever seen...6" heels...and a top that was see through. 

Did she get looks? Yes...was it cat calling? Nope...we set up a quick pool to bet on how long she would last?...would she go up the scaffold? How many steps till she tripped...etc. Context is everything...in an office she might have looked ok...but onsite..she looked like a pretty girl with no brain and a death wish.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
When I look around my worksite and imagine everyone nude, I understand the importance of clothing. >

(though there are some notable exceptions :grin2: 



MarriedDude said:


> Solution....EVERYONE must work nude....no matter the possibly painful, pinchy, dangley misshaps.
> 
> Do you think that this would merely be an move to further eliminate a persons responsibility to control themselves?


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Well, Conan, you should stop dressing like such a slvt at work and inviting women to come on to you all the time. I mean, if that many women are coming after you, you *must* be sending out some kind of vibe asking for it. It *must* be the way you are flashing your dimples or flexing your muscles. Why are you acting so unprofessionally that you are getting that much attention? You are too friendly, too approachable. Maybe you should get a baggier suit. Stop styling your hair.
> 
> After all, you *must* not have any boundaries or be asking for it or....something.
> 
> See what I mean?


I absolutely do and I don't blame OP's wife for getting hit on with the current information.

She maybe needs to learn how to shut these morons down and maybe her husband can help and support her through this.

I do feel sympathy for women being told they have to frown and look mean or ugly to ward off retards.

I really get it. 

I have not considered trying to make myself less attractive to ward off dippy women who have bad boundaries.

No one has even suggested it to me.

You are correct and while I have not ever suggested a woman was at fault for attracting morons because of her personality and looks, I never "noticed" just how much of society does.

I have always focused on behavior as an indicator.

Too bad everyone doesn't.

I fully get your frustration here. Thanks for the eye opener!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sapientia

Curious to get thoughts on this attire:


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## ConanHub

sapientia said:


> Curious to get thoughts on this attire:


Lovely and professional.

Two thumbs up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

sapientia said:


> Oh no. He wasn't ever admitting this except that multiple women came forward. By that time, he had no choice to admit. Class had nothing to do with this.


Agreed, "class" was the wrong word.

But what I was referring to was when they interviewed him about the charges, he said straight up that his behaviour was inapprooriate and he would adjust it accordingly.

Of course it's possible that he was just saying what his press agent told him to preserve his image. But at least he didn't blame the women, their dress or their behaviour.


----------



## always_alone

sapientia said:


> It's not sad, it's predictable and, therefore, preventable. "Managing" is having the brains to dress appropriately for a business environment.
> 
> Not managing, is rubbing yourself down with raw meat before stepping into the tiger's cage. The fool would be lucky to come away with only a lick or two.


Yes, agreed. Very predictable. I have been predicting it since I was 9 years old. And even as a girl, I learned that it was my job to take responsibility for horny dudes" sexuality because they would not do it themselves. Indeed, they would be celebrated, And I was "rubbing myself down with raw meat" 

And yes, absolutely, you don't need to tell me about managing . I have honed the craft to an art form and can now emasculate any man at 20 paces. Not that I need to anymore, but the talent is still there.

The problem is that there is a price. Spending so many years "managing" means that I never actually got the opportunity to feel sexual or sexually desirable in my own right. I had to make sure I wasn't giving anyone the wrong idea, leading them on, acting inappropriately.

The moral of the story as far as I'm concerned is: Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> But at least he didn't blame the women, their dress or their behavior.


That just means he isn't stupid.


----------



## sapientia

always_alone said:


> Agreed, "class" was the wrong word.
> 
> But what I was referring to was when they interviewed him about the charges, he said straight up that his behaviour was inappropriate and he would adjust it accordingly.
> 
> Of course it's possible that he was just saying what his press agent told him to preserve his image. But at least he didn't blame the women, their dress or their behaviour.





Buddy400 said:


> That just means he isn't stupid.


Exactly^.

So I only know what happened indirectly, but my understanding is his behaviour had been going on for quite some time, unapologetically, until he was called on it. It almost cost the whistleblower her job but fortunately for her other victims of his behaviour came forward.

So, yes, this was definitely damage control for his image, and that of the organization. I'm sure he was sorry, after the fact, at least as much for getting caught out as for what he did. The point is, this was a guy who didn't change with the times, kept his sexist attitudes and, worse, acted out on them. What might have been 'acceptable' (or at least tolerated) 20 years ago, simply isn't today.

As I said already, when in doubt, stay professional and classy. This goes for women and men. You'll get it right almost every time.


----------



## sapientia

always_alone said:


> Yes, agreed. Very predictable. I have been predicting it since I was 9 years old. And even as a girl, I learned that it was my job to take responsibility for horny dudes" sexuality because they would not do it themselves. Indeed, they would be celebrated, And I was "rubbing myself down with raw meat"
> 
> And yes, absolutely, you don't need to tell me about managing . I have honed the craft to an art form and can now emasculate any man at 20 paces. Not that I need to anymore, but the talent is still there.
> 
> The problem is that there is a price. Spending so many years "managing" means that I never actually got the opportunity to feel sexual or sexually desirable in my own right. I had to make sure I wasn't giving anyone the wrong idea, leading them on, acting inappropriately.
> 
> The moral of the story as far as I'm concerned is: Be careful what you wish for.


Just so you know, I was responding to your comment for the benefit of the OP. You are clearly working through some issues to make reference to an experience you had as a child. Sorry you find this a distressing topic. I'm not trying to teach you anything, personally. I'd like to keep this discussion of benefit to the OP. But if you would like to discuss further, perhaps you should start your own thread? I'd be happy to contribute my own POV on the topic as a professional woman.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> And the "touching" and revealing clothing doesn't help.
> 
> She shouldn't have to alter her dress, *but she should stop with the touching.*


The bolded is my only issue. There is no need for that in the workplace, plain and simple. This isn't a college party or going clubbing, this is your place of employment. I don't know how she is dressing, so as long as she is dressing according to her company's dress code I have no issue with. I am sure you could go a step further and say someone should keep their hands off anyone who isn't their SO or family (the latter may be an issue if you live in the South )


----------



## always_alone

sapientia said:


> Just so you know, I was responding to your comment for the benefit of the OP.


My apologies: I thought I had made the relevance of my point to the OP amply clear.

But since I didn't, please allow me to clarify.

OP before taking the advice on this thread and blaming your wife for rubbing herself with raw meat, please recognize that in fact she may be quite reasonably professional and is not actually asking to be sexually harassed in her workplace.


----------



## always_alone

sapientia said:


> The point is, this was a guy who didn't change with the times, kept his sexist attitudes and, worse, acted out on them. What might have been 'acceptable' (or at least tolerated) 20 years ago, simply isn't today.
> 
> As I said already, when in doubt, stay professional and classy. This goes for women and men. You'll get it right almost every time.



Yes, agreed. There are lots of guys out there who are acting entirely inappropriately even though they really ought to know better. And they are doing it all on their own. Women *arent* asking for it.

So why do you keep implying that it is somehow because the women aren't classy and professional enough? :scratchhead:


----------



## sapientia

always_alone said:


> So why do you keep implying that it is somehow because the women aren't classy and professional enough? :scratchhead:


I'm not. You are reading into my posts based on your own issues. The point is that, if one is careful to ensure professional conduct, it makes incidents like our friend M. Aubut much harder to defend with any "she was asking for it" argument.

In the OPs case, if she ever did log a complaint, she could run into problems given her touchy-feely behaviour that other people may have witnessed.

In any case, I would appreciate you cease dialog with me on this. Agree to disagree or whatever your issue is. I encourage you to start your own thread if this topic is stimulating your issues and you wish to discuss further. I'm not going to respond to you any further in this thread, but I wish you well.

PS - Here was my original post:



> As I said already, when in doubt, stay professional and classy. *This goes for women and men.*


----------



## EllisRedding

sapientia said:


> In the OPs case, if she ever did log a complaint, she could run into problems given her touchy-feely behaviour that other people may have witnessed.


Spot on


----------



## think positive

thanks for all of your feedback. I find it interesting that so many people are making assumptions about my wife's behavior to essentially be "asking for it". I should reiterate that my wife's dress is not as suggestive as some have surmised. 

I think this thread underscores the way in which men and women seem to have a lack of understanding of the other's vantage point. I think there are plenty of men that clearly missread signals and/or read them optimistically as many are in constant pursuit of the next piece of a$$. If for example my wife happens to touch a coworker in a non-sexual way, does he have the right or is it prudent to assume that she wants to Fu#$? I know allot of guys that would relentlessly pursue a women that has been fairly direct about her feelings. 

Further, the notion that HR will solve all these problems is not that correct. I men this could create a real problem for my wife at her company. She could be regarded as a bi#%h or uptight. 

I recently had a women who I had just met at my kids school function who hugged me goodbye. Not just a casual hug but, one where I could feel her boobs smushed against my chest. I mean if I later propositioned her would that be cool? That I would assume that she is an adulterer who wants to bone me?


----------



## EllisRedding

Well, I think first off, there is no room for touching in a work place (outside of a hand shake). There is way too much risk / liability that could be involved (whether it is harmless or not). If I see employees being "touchy" I would pull them aside and discuss this behavior as it is just one big HR nightmare waiting to happen. I prefer the "Keep your hands to yourself" policy at work, but that is just me. I don't see what is so difficult about this.

My other point, you mention your W has come home visibly upset. If that is the case I see two options. 1) She tries to make some changes to avoid this type of attention (maybe clothes, maybe with how she interacts, etc...) or 2) She just accepts it for what it is. This does not mean in any way justifying inappropriate behavior by any of the co workers, harassment is never ok and should be reported immediately.


----------



## *Deidre*

I've been hit on at business functions, yes. But, shut it down quickly. Not only because I'm engaged, but it's unprofessional to flirt 'innocently' even with colleagues. There are plenty of women who are jacka$$es too, though. Affairs take two, remember.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> I've been hit on at business functions, yes. But, shut it down quickly. Not only because I'm engaged, but it's unprofessional to flirt 'innocently' even with colleagues. There are plenty of women who are jacka$$es too, though. Affairs take two, remember.


I know someone (male) who was joking innocently with a female coworker (jokes were going both ways). Eventually the female was terminated for performance reasons but she was able to use the emails of these "jokes" to get a better severance package. It just isn't worth even getting into the "grey" area at work, too much of a risk.


----------



## rzmpf

think positive said:


> thanks for all of your feedback. I find it interesting that so many people are making assumptions about my wife's behavior to essentially be "asking for it". I should reiterate that my wife's dress is not as suggestive as some have surmised.
> 
> I think this thread underscores the way in which men and women seem to have a lack of understanding of the other's vantage point. I think there are plenty of men that clearly missread signals and/or read them optimistically as many are in constant pursuit of the next piece of a$$. If for example my wife happens to touch a coworker in a non-sexual way, does he have the right or is it prudent to assume that she wants to Fu#$? I know allot of guys that would relentlessly pursue a women that has been fairly direct about her feelings.
> 
> Further, the notion that HR will solve all these problems is not that correct. I men this could create a real problem for my wife at her company. She could be regarded as a bi#%h or uptight.
> 
> I recently had a women who I had just met at my kids school function who hugged me goodbye. Not just a casual hug but, one where I could feel her boobs smushed against my chest. I mean if I later propositioned her would that be cool? That I would assume that she is an adulterer who wants to bone me?


No one (at least i didn't read such a comment) said that they were in the right to harass her, most people just said that touching strangers/coworkers is inappropiate and inappropiate behaviour is more likely to provoke inappropiate responses especially in stup!d a-holes.

The hug you got was inappropiate and that you didn't pursue her makes you a better human being than the a-holes at your wife's company. Doesn't change the fact that the hug was inappropiate (for you? for me it would be). 
By touching coworkers your wife gives the ones that are a$$es an (or one more) excuse to harass her. The good guys would not make a move anyway, they could even be deterred by her breaking the boundary of physical contact. 
Could be that the only excuse the harassers need is that she is female and they would behave like that regardless of her behaviour. Doesn't make it right, it's just how these guys think. 
Some people steal cars no matter what, they break in and go off with it. Some just take one thats unlocked with keys in the ignition. Doesn't make stealing right. You just made it a lot easier for them by not locking your car. Locking your car minimizes the risk, not touching coworkers and keeping a professional distance does that too. The risk won't be zero but less.


How strong was the "No" your wife threw at the advances she was getting? If she is afraid about being labeled an uptight b!tch I would not assume her reaction was strong enough to deterr her pursuers which could mean that they see that as an invitation to continue. An easy victim that does not defend herself. Doesn't make their behaviour right, that's just how these guys operate.
Honestly, for me it sounds like a sh!tty place to work at.


So she basically has 3 options if she does not want to involve HR. She can endure the harassment, ignore the fnckers and wait if they lose interest or she can stand up for herself in no uncertain terms and live with the consequences (which could result in the same outcome if she were to involve HR) or leave the company. Just like a school kid that does not want to involve the teachers with getting bullied in the yard. Take the bullying, beat them or leave school.

It will can be a tough road and she will need your support either way.


----------



## Buddy400

think positive said:


> I think there are plenty of men that clearly missread signals and/or read them optimistically as many are in constant pursuit of the next piece of a$$.


Yes there are and many of them won't be "men in constant pursuit", they'll just be socially clueless guys who misread signals.


----------



## always_alone

think positive said:


> Further, the notion that HR will solve all these problems is not that correct. I men this could create a real problem for my wife at her company. She could be regarded as a bi#%h or uptight.


Agreed. It can be tough to navigate. Your wife probably knows best the particular workplace culture and what the likely reactions would be.


----------



## always_alone

EllisRedding said:


> I know someone (male) who was joking innocently with a female coworker (jokes were going both ways). Eventually the female was terminated for performance reasons but she was able to use the emails of these "jokes" to get a better severance package. It just isn't worth even getting into the "grey" area at work, too much of a risk.


Depending on your POV, this could actually be an argument *for* inappropriate joking.

Just sayin'.


----------



## always_alone

rzmpf said:


> The hug you got was inappropiate and that you didn't pursue her makes you a better human being than the a-holes at your wife's company. Doesn't change the fact that the hug was inappropiate (for you? for me it would be).
> By touching coworkers your wife gives the ones that are a$$es an (or one more) excuse to harass her. The good guys would not make a move anyway, they could even be deterred by her breaking the boundary of physical contact.


Different people, different cultures, different environments will all have different expectations around what is and is not appropriate in terms of dress and behaviour. In some cultures, for example, it is routine to greet people by kissing them on the cheeks. Some are more huggy or touchy than others. And what one set of standards would judge as "too casual" or "too revealing" another would judge to be fine.

In diverse workplaces in a globalized world, it can be a challenge to navigate. 

I for one would hesitate before trying to convince someone to shut down a part of their personality/ way of being because an a-hole may misread it. I totally get that shutting people down is an effective way to, well, shut them down. But at the same time, as I was trying to articulate earlier, there is a real cost to this, both in terms of how you are perceived by your co-workers, as well as how you see yourself.

Being "professional" is not just one set of narrowly defined behaviours.


----------



## EllisRedding

always_alone said:


> Depending on your POV, this could actually be an argument *for* inappropriate joking.
> 
> Just sayin'.


I was trying not to go there, but yeah, the person in question made off ok ...


----------



## think positive

I hear the comments about playing it safe. On the other hand I met with a guy that I used to work with years ago. He and I had gotten quite close. I greeted him with a handshake and he gave pulled me in for a hug. This is common with some of my international customers. Hugs are commonplace if you have known someone a while. So should I assume these men want to stick it in my backside or give me a blowjo$. 

It is a sad that we spend most of our working hours interacting with other people. The workplace is where I have met most of my closest and longest enduring friendships. It is sad that we can't engage in human touch without being missunderstood by jackwads.


----------



## EllisRedding

think positive said:


> I hear the comments about playing it safe. On the other hand I met with a guy that I used to work with years ago. He and I had gotten quite close. I greeted him with a handshake and he gave pulled me in for a hug. This is common with some of my international customers. Hugs are commonplace if you have known someone a while. So should I assume these men want to stick it in my backside or give me a blowjo$.
> 
> It is a sad that we spend most of our working hours interacting with other people. The workplace is where I have met most of my closest and longest enduring friendships. It is sad that we can't engage in human touch without being missunderstood by jackwads.


For better or worse, there is a difference when this touching includes people of the opposite sex.

I don't see why you can't develop a friendship with co workers that doesn't involve touching them at work  However, to each his own. That is not the environment I grew up in so it just seems off to me. When you factor in the liability side of it at work, there are just better/more appropriate places for this.


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## rzmpf

think positive said:


> I hear the comments about playing it safe. On the other hand I met with a guy that I used to work with years ago. He and I had gotten quite close. I greeted him with a handshake and he gave pulled me in for a hug. This is common with some of my international customers. Hugs are commonplace if you have known someone a while. So should I assume these men want to stick it in my backside or give me a blowjo$.
> 
> It is a sad that we spend most of our working hours interacting with other people. The workplace is where I have met most of my closest and longest enduring friendships. It is sad that we can't engage in human touch without being missunderstood by jackwads.


Well physical interaction between 2 members of the same sex has much less sexual connotations, especially when both are heterosexual. Slap your male friend on his butt after he has done a good job and let a male coworker slap your wife on her butt when she has done a good job. 
It's completely the same isn't it? Do you just misinterpret it?


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## Kilgoretrout

*Deidre* said:


> I've been hit on at business functions, yes. But, shut it down quickly. Not only because I'm engaged, but it's unprofessional to flirt 'innocently' even with colleagues. There are plenty of women who are jacka$$es too, though. Affairs take two, remember.


If I feel boundaries are being crossed, I just say, "let me stop you. I have a small penis."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

Kilgoretrout said:


> If I feel boundaries are being crossed, I just say, "let me stop you. I have a small penis."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hahahaha!!


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## Kilgoretrout

*Deidre* said:


> hahahaha!!


Truth always keeps you safe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bobby5000

"Like many women she is a "toucher" and perhaps men cannot decipher freeindly touching vs. flirting." Women should not be touching men in professional situations, and hoping that they decipher the hidden meanings behind that. There is a bright line which generally means no opposite sex physical contact.


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## nirvana

While I agree that in general not all physical contact means flirting or interest, women are not innocent victims either.

I have seen several cases in the work place where women walk around with their boobs popping out from the top of their clothes. There was a VP of Sales lady (not very attractive but big ones) who always dressed this way and sat in front of you at meetings and push them up. How can a straight guy not get distracted? I think such women get a kick out of doing this to see how men react. No one will blame the woman these days anyway because it is not PC. Blame the man for looking and for "body shaming" - another new term thrown around these days. At my previous work place, there was a 24 year old girl who would come to work in a dress that had the back open and you could see her bra from there go across quite openly. One poor guy noticed and thought she had lost a button.  

Point is several women openly and brazenly display themselves and then reserve the right to complain that men look at them. Some just enjoy the power trip and others just love to gloat about the attention.


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## Dulsura

Yes, lots of them...you could be surprised.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk


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## She'sStillGotIt

think positive said:


> I am by no means an angel in the case that I find many women attractive and am guilty of wondering what they may be like to be with sexually, admired their lady parts, face or whatever...OK to be truthful I look at women and admire them and even am aroused by other women, but would never actually make advances. I would only do that if I were totally unhappy.


Odd. 

That sounds _*exactly*_ like all the Jack Ass men you've described in your original post.


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## arbitrator

*Just enough of them out there to either, knowingly or unknowingly, "conveniently" misinterpret her "touchy-feely" gestures as nothing more than overt signals to proceed full speed ahead at hitting on her!

As Confucius always say, "A hard Willie hath little to no conscience!"*


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## alexm

Old thread, but here goes.

A woman who is attractive and friendly in the workplace is not "asking for it", even if she is wearing clothing that many may consider to be 'flaunting her assets', so to speak. I know this makes me sound like a PC Modern Man, White Knight, sensitive guy, but meh.

Technically, she can dress however she wants and shouldn't expect men to be hitting on her, but we all know that isn't the case, unfortunately.

Where I take exception is when people decide that somebody is looking for attention, or "flaunting it" based on how they're dressed. While that certainly may be true in some cases, it isn't always. It may simply be that they feel better or more confident in a certain dress or blouse. Having lived with more than one woman over the past ~20 years, I know all too well the impact that clothing can have on one's confidence on a day-to-day basis. And vice versa. She may have the confidence to wear 'that' dress today, but last week she put it on and went 'ugh, not today'.

The greatest irony I see in all of this (in terms of clothing, that is), is that the Western world, in general, is against cultures that women are typically covered up in some way. "It's sexist, and women should be allowed to dress how they want" is a familiar refrain, particularly when it comes to Muslim culture. But when a woman does dress how she wants, in what she's comfortable with, many of the same people decide it's too revealing, she should cover up a bit, or that she's fair game to be hit on.

I feel bad for women. "You poor thing, having to cover up all the time" to "Jesus, put some clothes on".

Men have basically dictated to women what the middle ground is, even in terms of how women interact with them. In the above example, not only are women expected to cover up their bodies, they're often not allowed to interact with men, other than family members (or if male family members are present). That's Draconian to many people (and not without good reason, but I digress). But in our Western culture, where women are allowed to interact with whomever they choose, they are often derided for how they do so.


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## Good Guy

alexm said:


> Old thread, but here goes.
> 
> A woman who is attractive and friendly in the workplace is not "asking for it", even if she is wearing clothing that many may consider to be 'flaunting her assets', so to speak. I know this makes me sound like a PC Modern Man, White Knight, sensitive guy, but meh.
> 
> Technically, she can dress however she wants and shouldn't expect men to be hitting on her, but we all know that isn't the case, unfortunately.
> 
> Where I take exception is when people decide that somebody is looking for attention, or "flaunting it" based on how they're dressed. While that certainly may be true in some cases, it isn't always. It may simply be that they feel better or more confident in a certain dress or blouse. Having lived with more than one woman over the past ~20 years, I know all too well the impact that clothing can have on one's confidence on a day-to-day basis. And vice versa. She may have the confidence to wear 'that' dress today, but last week she put it on and went 'ugh, not today'.
> 
> The greatest irony I see in all of this (in terms of clothing, that is), is that the Western world, in general, is against cultures that women are typically covered up in some way. "It's sexist, and women should be allowed to dress how they want" is a familiar refrain, particularly when it comes to Muslim culture. But when a woman does dress how she wants, in what she's comfortable with, many of the same people decide it's too revealing, she should cover up a bit, or that she's fair game to be hit on.
> 
> I feel bad for women. "You poor thing, having to cover up all the time" to "Jesus, put some clothes on".
> 
> Men have basically dictated to women what the middle ground is, even in terms of how women interact with them. In the above example, not only are women expected to cover up their bodies, they're often not allowed to interact with men, other than family members (or if male family members are present). That's Draconian to many people (and not without good reason, but I digress). But in our Western culture, where women are allowed to interact with whomever they choose, they are often derided for how they do so.


Sorry, this is a load of rubbish for two reasons:

1. Men are far more limited in what is acceptable for them to wear than women are in the workplace. It's other women that shame women for what they wear.

2. Men touching women in the workplace is completely unacceptable while the reverse is fine and appropriate apparently.


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## jb02157

Good Guy said:


> Sorry, this is a load of rubbish for two reasons:
> 
> 1. Men are far more limited in what is acceptable for them to wear than women are in the workplace. It's other women that shame women for what they wear.
> 
> 2. Men touching women in the workplace is completely unacceptable while the reverse is fine and appropriate apparently.


Exactly and this is where the double standard lies. There are serious consequence for men touching ...even looking at women at work while women can look, touch and do basically what even they please. Yet, women are always complaining how unfair the work place is to them. All they have to do is show a little skin and maybe they get that promotion their male counterpart should have gotten. Happens at my workplace all the time. I can't remember that last time a male was promoted.


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## ChargingCharlie

My former assistant is an attractive woman in her mid 30's - she always dressed appropriately, but she'd sometimes dress where she'd show a little bit of cleavage and/or some leg, and I was always careful not to snatch a look, which was difficult as she is very attractive (plus was a great employee - I miss her). We're a small office, and I don't need those kind of problems. We got along great, but I was always careful. 

No worries with the current assistant - she's not very attractive plus is very overweight.


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## toblerone

jb02157 said:


> while women can look, touch and do basically what even they please.


They can't. It's just that guys don't stop them.

Luckily the situation is quickly resolved if you just give them a 'WTF?!' look if they make a move/try to touch you and you don't want it.


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## CharlieParker

ChargingCharlie said:


> My former assistant is an attractive woman in her mid 30's - she always dressed appropriately, but she'd sometimes dress where she'd show a little bit of cleavage and/or some leg, and I was always careful not to snatch a look, which was difficult as she is very attractive (plus was a great employee - I miss her). We're a small office, and I don't need those kind of problems. We got along great, but I was always careful.


I had a similar situation, except it was a lot of cleavage and too few buttons buttoned. And I would discreetly have quick peeks. I can tell you about the problems, even 30 years later. Big problems, everyday. 

Just kidding on the problems, I wound up marrying her. We still work together, no cleavage on display.


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## ChargingCharlie

CharlieParker said:


> I had a similar situation, except it was a lot of cleavage and too few buttons buttoned. And I would discreetly have quick peeks. I can tell you about the problems, even 30 years later. Big problems, everyday.
> 
> Just kidding on the problems, I wound up marrying her. We still work together, no cleavage on display.


Oh, yeah, I'd catch a peek when I could. She didn't show a lot of cleavage, but enough to pique interest. I recall one day a few years ago when a client called (he's about her age and he never met her in person) - when I got on the phone he says "Your assistant sounds hot, is she hot"? Well, that day she looked really good - skirt with black tights/hose and just enough cleavage (professional, but still looked great). I just deflected the reply (her desk is outside my door). All I know is that her husband is a lucky guy (and I'll reiterate, she was a great assistant. I'd bring her back in a second, and not for her looks).


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## SimplyAmorous

Kilgoretrout said:


> If I feel boundaries are being crossed, I just say, "let me stop you. I have a small penis."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Come on.. this is hilarious...







...but you haven't done this!! 

If on the off chance you are not kidding here...you gotta share a story....the look on their faces... the world is a crazy place.. I mean maybe you have !??


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## uhtred

Human interactions need to be adjusted to the situation. A workplace is not the same as a nightclub.

My belief is that a workplace:

The only acceptable touching is a handshake. No "friendly" hugs, pats, hands on shoulders, steering by the arm etc. 

Personal discussions need to be limited. General things about family vacations etc are fine. No discussions of relationship issues. 

It is OK to invite someone to a non-business dinner as a first step toward starting a relationship but it has to be done in a way that allows a very easy rejection. If the person is a direct report it needs to be done with extreme care, better not at all.

Clothing should be appropriate for work. Casual or formal is OK depending on the worksite, but clothing specifically designed to entice is not OK.


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## AVR1962

Good questions from the OP. I think men are that clueless and perhaps it is the testosterone that drives them, I am not sure. Years ago I was working at a military base facility. My kids came to play with the other kids, everyone knew everyone. One younger man became obsessed with me and was playing my children to watch his car and telling my kids he thought I was beautiful....this was my kids! I called him out on his actions infront of another military member with rank. This young man was married, admitted he had a crush on me and could not stay at the base, opted to leave his wife and get out of the military. 

Since opening my FaceBook account many years ago I have had many men, married or not, knowing I was married at the time, sending my IMs with interests in me. I let them know I was only interested in being friends but they did not stop. 

Since my divorce I have had an old school mate that was pursuing me hard thru FaceBook and again I let him know that I had I only wanted friendship well, that I think offended him and I never heard from him again.

I knew my ex was doing the same garbage these other men were doing when I was married to him. My ex is 56, balding and heavy yet he thinks he stands a chance and I often wonder when these 60+ year old men sit beside me to chat me up if they seriously think I would ever be interested but why else would they sit and chat?


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## Faithful Wife

Bobby5000 said:


> "Like many women she is a "toucher" and perhaps men cannot decipher freeindly touching vs. flirting." Women should not be touching men in professional situations, and hoping that they decipher the hidden meanings behind that. There is a bright line which generally means no opposite sex physical contact.


I did not used to notice my casual touching of people until about 10 years ago when moving into some HR duties. Then they give you some coaching and stuff, and I all at once realized wow, yeah, I do sometimes touch a person's arm or shoulder, and if I had to be honest with myself, I would enjoy it more if it was a man with nice arms. Oops, I was sexually harassing people!!

So I just stopped touching altogether in the work place, other than perhaps a once a year professional/team building type hug at the holiday party with a few staff I've worked with for several years. And not only that, if I see someone is about to touch me in anyway, I just gently and almost imperceptibly move away from them so they cannot touch me. Usually if they keep reaching to touch me (not a common thing at all, maybe has only happened twice) and I keep moving away, it will suddenly be comical what is happening and he or she will stop and laugh and comment in a light hearted way, but then they won't continue to try to touch as it will be obvious I don't want to be touched. If I was asked, I would say "yes I just have high personal space boundaries and don't like to be touched" and leave it at that.

Where I work it is not anything that would ever commonly happen.

Although my (adult) son does work at my company...and when we see each other at work (not very often, maybe once a month), we hug and I kiss him on the cheek and I don't care who is looking. It is quite adorable, actually. He is a laborer, and is one of our tough guy team. But he still allows (and enjoys) a peck on the cheek and a hug from mom. People in the office think it is sweet.


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## alexm

Good Guy said:


> Sorry, this is a load of rubbish for two reasons:
> 
> 1. Men are far more limited in what is acceptable for them to wear than women are in the workplace. It's other women that shame women for what they wear.
> 
> 2. Men touching women in the workplace is completely unacceptable while the reverse is fine and appropriate apparently.





jb02157 said:


> Exactly and this is where the double standard lies. There are serious consequence for men touching ...even looking at women at work while women can look, touch and do basically what even they please. Yet, women are always complaining how unfair the work place is to them. All they have to do is show a little skin and maybe they get that promotion their male counterpart should have gotten. Happens at my workplace all the time. I can't remember that last time a male was promoted.


Double standard? Maybe. But that's life. Not worth *****ing about.

As somebody else said in response to this, most men don't put up a fight if a woman touches them. Some do. Back in my office days, some women were just as forward as the men were. I've been hit on in the workplace, despite my marital status being known. I had a woman smack my behind once.

And true story, I once got a promotion, I strongly suspect, because the woman doing the interviews fancied me, personally. I was 4 months into an entry-level position and applied for a competition to a job that I figured was (and was right about) over my head. I genuinely applied for the interview experience, and nothing more. Far more qualified men and women lost out, and were none too happy. I literally found myself explaining what my intentions were to a co-worker, and that I did not expect to even get an interview, let alone the job. But from almost day one at that corporation, that woman seemed to pay a little extra attention to me, went out of her way to chat with me a couple of times a day, constantly asked how I liked the job, inquired to my marital status, etc. This was BEFORE the promotion. Went right over my head (I was young) until it was pointed out by more than one co-worker...

Regardless, sexual harassment and preferential treatment absolutely occurs with both genders. Men are often either too dense to notice, embarrassed, or perhaps even enjoy it, which is why there's rarely a visit to HR when it's woman on man. Some women certainly DO enjoy it, or even 'fish' for it - just as men do.

But deciding a woman is fishing because of the way she dresses... I dunno guys. That's projection on your part, which is exactly the point of my previous post. We men are typically the ones who decide things like 'too much clothes' or 'not enough clothes'. She's a prude, she's a *****. She smiled at me, she must like me. She touches my arm, she must want to sleep with me. She shows a little cleavage, she wants people to look. And on and on and on.

It's essentially saying "don't tempt me, what do you expect I'll do?", and turning it all around on the woman. Gross.

Ask yourself this: If you're the type of person who thinks a woman covering her head or face is barbaric and sexist and it must be men who are dictating this to her - then how can you justify going in the opposite direction, and saying that women can't wear too little, because then you'll be tempted to sneak a peek? Like I said, can't wear too much, can't wear too little. Some of you men seem to know what's best for women.


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## jb02157

alexm said:


> Double standard? Maybe. But that's life. Not worth *****ing about.
> 
> As somebody else said in response to this, most men don't put up a fight if a woman touches them. Some do. Back in my office days, some women were just as forward as the men were. I've been hit on in the workplace, despite my marital status being known. I had a woman smack my behind once.
> 
> And true story, I once got a promotion, I strongly suspect, because the woman doing the interviews fancied me, personally. I was 4 months into an entry-level position and applied for a competition to a job that I figured was (and was right about) over my head. I genuinely applied for the interview experience, and nothing more. Far more qualified men and women lost out, and were none too happy. I literally found myself explaining what my intentions were to a co-worker, and that I did not expect to even get an interview, let alone the job. But from almost day one at that corporation, that woman seemed to pay a little extra attention to me, went out of her way to chat with me a couple of times a day, constantly asked how I liked the job, inquired to my marital status, etc. This was BEFORE the promotion. Went right over my head (I was young) until it was pointed out by more than one co-worker...
> 
> Regardless, sexual harassment and preferential treatment absolutely occurs with both genders. Men are often either too dense to notice, embarrassed, or perhaps even enjoy it, which is why there's rarely a visit to HR when it's woman on man. Some women certainly DO enjoy it, or even 'fish' for it - just as men do.
> 
> But deciding a woman is fishing because of the way she dresses... I dunno guys. That's projection on your part, which is exactly the point of my previous post. We men are typically the ones who decide things like 'too much clothes' or 'not enough clothes'. She's a prude, she's a *****. She smiled at me, she must like me. She touches my arm, she must want to sleep with me. She shows a little cleavage, she wants people to look. And on and on and on.
> 
> It's essentially saying "don't tempt me, what do you expect I'll do?", and turning it all around on the woman. Gross.
> 
> Ask yourself this: If you're the type of person who thinks a woman covering her head or face is barbaric and sexist and it must be men who are dictating this to her - then how can you justify going in the opposite direction, and saying that women can't wear too little, because then you'll be tempted to sneak a peek? Like I said, can't wear too much, can't wear too little. Some of you men seem to know what's best for women.


It definitely is worth talking about. It may be your experience that you feel you got a promotion because a woman boss "fancied" you. That makes you an extreme rarity. This happens 90% of the time to women not men. 

As far as men going to HR to complain about women dressing inappropriately it's really the other way around, it's women dressed inappropriately who will go to HR complaining that men are making "unwanted" advances to her, getting men in trouble while she tries to takes their job opportunities away. I've see it happen at every company I've worked at. This is why men have to be so damn careful in the work world.


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## alexm

jb02157 said:


> It definitely is worth talking about. It may be your experience that you feel you got a promotion because a woman boss "fancied" you. That makes you an extreme rarity. This happens 90% of the time to women not men.
> 
> As far as men going to HR to complain about women dressing inappropriately it's really the other way around, it's women dressed inappropriately who will go to HR complaining that men are making "unwanted" advances to her, getting men in trouble while she tries to takes their job opportunities away. I've see it happen at every company I've worked at. This is why men have to be so damn careful in the work world.


Maybe we guys should just stop ogling women's tits simply because they're there. Or if you just can't help it, maybe look away if you get caught, and don't do it again, instead of making a big deal out of it, or god forbid, smiling or winking. OR, don't blame it on the woman (which one poster did in this thread).

I'd like to believe that the majority of women who approach HR about such instances have valid reasons to do so, such as being objectified. The reality is that none of us men truly know what it's like to be a woman in the work world. Hell, it's objectification to make the assumption that a woman who dresses how she chooses (and not against any dress code) is wantonly approaching HR with a bag of lies.


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## heartsbeating

A couple of posts about preferential treatment reminded when I was working in a particular office. We needed supplies to continue with the project. Colleagues were complaining how bad our account manager was (we were his client), not returning calls or getting supplies to us when needed. The director requested I call him as I was new in. I called, placed the order, he arrived with supplies within about two hours. 

He asked to meet me. 

Took one look and said 'By your accent, I thought you'd look different...' His facial expression and disappointed tone was classic. I know it was inappropriate of him but I had to hold back the laughter. I replied 'Sorry to disappoint you.' He grunted, told me who he expected me to to look like, handed over the order and left. 

The team commented they'd never received service that fast before. 'Well now he knows I don't look like his Hollywood crush, it probably won't happen again!'


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