# Wife had 2 (small?) EA's



## couldhavebeenworse

Married 18 years, 5 kids. 38 and 36 years old. 

My wife recently rejoined the military as a reservists. About 2 years ago, she had to attend a month long training. She was also training with another male, and was often with him and lunch and sometimes dinner. She told me all about him, and that he was suicidal and she felt compelled to minister to him. I was not super comfortable but she did not hide their conversations and swore she was not attracted to him. I even skyped with her and him once when we were trying to figure out a travel voucher. I told her to be careful and maintain the boundaries we have in our marriage. (I had sent her an email saying this, and found it recently). This dude was never a problem, I have since read all their messages on FB and text. However, there was a guy she found attractive there. She says she told me about him that first week, and she probably did as she is usually honest about that kind of thing. I remember from this time period she had become kind of cold, and have 2 emails telling her as much. (again, found recently in my research). 

Fast forward to January this year. Her phone was open one day and I see a message from a guy I know she talks to from time to time, mostly about cars. (they both drive corvettes) The message from this dude was asking her what she was doing this weekend and she stated something like "we were going to go see a movie, I guess," as if she was not happy about it, and indeed proceeded to say how she doesn't like going to the theater. I was slightly hurt by this, as we maintain tight boundaries, and we have agreed not to have close friends of the opposite sex or message with them about anything of consequence. A few days later we were arguing about something and I brought it up. I asked how much they talked and about what. She said "once a week and about cars." We were arguing about something different and a short time later I asked her to see her phone and read through about a weeks worth of messages. She was talking to him a lot and complaining about things I did. I left the room and we didn't speak most of the weekend. The next day she did, however, send me an email that she knew it was wrong, and deleted the conversation and blocked him on FB. I wrote her a message saying she shouldn't have deleted the messages because she knows I would want to read them. Anyway, that Monday, she drove me to the Church so we could talk. She proceeded to tell me that FB dude was just a friendship, but since I was so upset about it, and to avoid a trickle truth event at some point down the road, confessed she had an EA with the guy from her training. (not the suicidal one, the one she was attracted to.) I immediately jumped out of the car and started to walk home, I briefly came back to ask her what physical contact there was and she said "None."

I left town and we texted through the night. She also sent me an email explaining everything. I will post that in another post. Basically, they started going to dinner as a threesome. At one point he sent her a text saying "I think you like me," to which she thinks she wrote "I can't like you I'm married." At this point she told a friend she "thinks I'm in over my head," but felt this dude also was depressed and needed a friend. (my wife has a MA in psychology and counseling) He also tried to get her to switch reserve units to his, and she told him "I don't think we should work together." So, it was clear to both they were attracted to each other. Eventually he asked her to go to a movie with him one Sunday night when she was driving back to base after being home for the weekend. She told him no, go with the other guy, etc. He said he wasn't asking for marriage and she eventually agreed. She felt bad the next day, but decided to not tell me because I was already upset about the other guy (suicide guy) and that she thought I would react badly. For the next two weeks they went to dinner once, to a bar with friends, to a bar alone, and back to his apartment to watch a movie. Obviously that night was the greatest concern. She says he sat on a chair and she on the couch, and he talked about his exgf for hours. When it was time for bed he tried to get her to just sleep there. She said no, and he said it was late and he didn't want to drive. She said she would walk to the hotel then. At that he agreed to drive her back. During this time, he also made several comments she took as sexual. One of the nights when he was dropping her off, he said one again. She asked him if he was implying something, and he said yes. She asked him "if I said come on up to my room, what would you say?" He said something like why the heck not. She said he would have to marry her and she was already married. From that point on he would send texts like "Want to make out?" and crap like that. She left her training, and on the first drill weekend that month, she went with him to a bday party, and a concert. The next month he was out of town during her drill weekend. The next month we were on vacation and she missed drill. The next month they saw each other at a work function and hung out for an hour or so. She said she started to lose attraction after the training time, and their texts became infrequent, and that they were always a bit awkward. I saw in google history that the night she was at the bday party with him, they had watched a youtube video on awkward texts. 

She claims he started to only answer her texts with one word. She noticed he had stopped liking her Instagram posts. I saw in some texts (that didn't quite go back far enough for me) that her friend asked her in Nov of that year if she was behaving herself. She Said "Yes, sadly? Just hung out with the girls." She then went on to say she thinks he found a gf, which is fine, but doesn't understand why they can't still be friends, and wants to tell him off. She tells her friend she is still concerned about him maybe being depressed, and may try to meet up with him in Dec. She says that she will just let it go and that if God needs her to help him, then He will show her. Shortly after she finds he unfollowed her on social media. That Jan., she send him a text. I remember asking her that day who she was texting with, and she said just some guy from training she knew. She had just sent a joke about him not running people over, and he came close to her and some coworkers while in a parking lot. She says that is the last contact she ever had with him. 

I work for a law enforcement agency and told her I would recover all of the texts. She said she has nothing to hide, but that I won't like seeing all of there messages. She took no steps to stop me. Of course, our device was down. I also messaged the FB guy. He said nothing inappropriate was ever said, and he copied 800 pages of their texts over the past year and a half. My wife has put off allowing him to send it, first wanting to see what our counselor said (we started counseling), and then till after a business trip. Now she wants me to wait till I have a plan, as I will not like reading through these. Again, she says she didn't flirt, send anything sexual, nothing like that, just that I won't like reading her messages to another man about life in general and the few vents she made to him about our marriage. 

I have read hundreds of posts on here about other affairs, and know most of you will assume she slept with the dude at training. I sincerely doubt it. She says the only physical contact was a side hug when others were present, and he touched her back on two occasions while on the way to the restroom and a restaurant. She confessed it to me, and has no real issue with me recovering messages. She says she was caught off guard, fell easily into his ploys, was happy to have his attention, wanted nothing physical from him and never even thought about it. She has broken any bonds she had, and has no desire to ever contact him again. She realizes now how easily things can happen. As for the FB dude, says there was never any attraction and had no negative feelings deleting and blocking him.

So, my main reason for writing this is just to get everyone's take. Definitely working on reconciliation. Definitely believe she is being open and honest. I have logged in to all of her social media accounts. Definitely will be reading the FB messages, definitely will be recovering the texts. Definitely hurt by this because we have tight boundaries on our marriage and she broke two of them.


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## couldhavebeenworse

her message about FB dude she wrote the following morning after confrontation:

I have a lot of things I would like to say, but I feel it is wiser to stay on schedule with the kids. 


I do want you to know that I blocked him on Instagram and snapchat- trying to figure out how to delete snapchat entirely but the link isn't working. I posted that I am starting my fb lent break early, as in today, and deleted fb and messenger off of my phone. I didn't block him before I did that, so I will block him and his wife from the computer. 

I do want to you know that I am completely aware how wrong it was. And I am truly sorry. Not that you found out, but that I hurt you and carried on this relationship.

And Whether you believe me or not, there really aren't any feelings on my part. Blocking him from everything is actually relieving. While I am sure I did gain from the relationship, it was truly minimal and unnecessary


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## couldhavebeenworse

letter about attractive dude at training:

Dear BH,

I am certain you don't care, but I really am sorry that I hurt you. I am sorry for making poor decisions. I am sorry for betraying your trust. I am sorry for hiding all of this from you. I have taken it to confession on multiple occasions and feel that I have been able to break any bonds there. I have no desire to see or talk to him again. I have no desire to end up in another situation such as that. I feel that he played me for a fool, and I am sure you agree. I think it was all a game to him, I kept telling him no I can't do whatever because I am married and it's not right. He basically told me how stupid it was that I couldn't "talk" to a guy because I was married. Hard to defend that to someone not married. So I think it was a game to see how many of my rules I would break. Obviously a good number. Satan did well.

I feel like I told you most of it in the texting, though I am sure you have more questions. 

The first couple weeks he was friendly enough, but other than a couple of odd comments that strangely rang of jealousy to me, uneventful. One of the first couple days (maybe that first day) you were trying to get ahold of me to get (our son's) number. I had a number of texts and missed calls from you when I looked at my phone. I mentioned that I needed to step outside to call you as you had called 8 times or whatever it was. He replied "stalker much?" I thought that bizarre, especially since he didn't know me at all and simply stated he needed to get ahold of the kids and didn't have the number and walked away. Wasn't a good first impression because my feelings were that you were my spouse and could stalk all you wanted. Except that wasn't stalking and you didn't stalk me. Perhaps you should have. 

I cannot recall the other comment at this time. I just remember thinking he sounded jealous. And thought wth, you aren't my anything, why do you care?

After the first couple weeks, he came to dinner with (suicide dude) and I. I was so relieved to spend any time with someone other than (suicide dude). Especially because he was a mess could talk of nothing but his girl problems for hours. Working with someone, eating lunch with someone, eating dinner with someone...and having that someone talk ALL THAT TIME about his problems is quite overwhelming. Add in that (suicide dude) was causing marital stress. You were constantly pissed, not that I blame you but you wouldn't look at it logically, and even when I came home on the weekends you weren't interested in spending time with me. It was a crappy time.

So we texted a few times. Couldn't tell you what about, nothing of consequence. I can only remember saying anything negative about you twice. Once when there was shock I hadn't seen the latest star wars movie and I said because you went without me. And once when your mom was up and you were driving people around in the corvette while I cleaned bathrooms. 

While driving back to (Base) one sunday he asked if I was back and wanted to go see the movie. I said I wouldn't be in until late (9 or something )but I knew (suicide dude) was back already and I was sure he'd go with him. He said some not nice things about him and how he didn't want to go see a movie with him because he never shut up etc. Said there was a 10 oclock showing. I said I would see if (suicide dude) would want to go that late. He flipped out about how I couldn't go anywhere without (suicide dude). I replied that I was married, I couldn't be going to movies with other guys. He gave me some sob story about how his life sucks and he just needs to get out and relax or whatever and he was tired of going to movies alone and it was just a movie not a proposal, etc. I felt bad, thought it's just a movie. I am sorry. It really was a terrible movie and I probably slept through half of it. Not that that matters. I'm still shocked that he could make me feel guilty and that I went. I am sure you are too.

I wish I had gone back to my room and told you and apologized and that was the end of it. 

I only had like a week left. We went to get dinner the night before I left I think. Some Mexican place. And then went to a bar downtown. I went to a bar with him another night but another couple guys were there, too. 

The concert, like I said, he was planning to go with a guy from work but surprised him and the guy couldn't go. He said he asked around and couldn't find anyone who was free. It was drill weekend and originally I had a great excuse because it was the night of (some girls) baby shower. Then (some girl) didn't come that weekend. So I stupidly agreed, again because he played the pity card. 

I think that was the last time I saw him, other than for a bit at the wing picnic in September. We chatted with some of the other people we knew, nothing then except me making a comment about someone's cute baby and him asking me if I wanted to go make one. I said no thank you. 

He never directly propositioned me other than that. He said he was going to shower and asked if I wanted to join him. I said no thank you. 

He made a comment a few times about how he'd try anything once. I don't remember the context but the first time the comment was just odd to me. The second time I was like is he implying something? The third I asked if he was implying something. And said I was married. He said something to the affirmative. I was shocked.. I am sure you are not, but I really was. I clarified " so if I said come on up to my room, what would you say?' He replied that he'd say why the hell not or something to that effect. "Even knowing that I am married??" Lots of girls are technically married. That doesn't mean they are looking for something. I wanted to tell him that was the worst pick up line ever. Definitely didn't make me want to do something "I'll try anything once." Wasn't feeling special with that one. But I just said I'm not. Sorry. and walked away. 

He messaged me on the computer one drill weekend, still in that time frame.(some guy) saw it come up, asked why I was talking to him. Proceeded to tell me that he was a douche bag who kept trying to sleep with his wife when she got to (base). (They were broken up at the time.) Said stay away from him. While I wish he'd said something sooner, not sure I'd have listened because (some guy) hates everyone. 

I am sorry. I am not only sorry for you but for me. I am super disappointed in myself. Especially because in hindsight he is not worth my time much less my marriage. For a few brief seconds he made me feel special and important, but as I got to know him I realized he is quite the narcissist and I doubt he could tell you much of anything about me. He didn't ask, he didn't care. He was looking to meet his needs and I guess I was, too. Thankfully, our needs weren't the same.

I learned a lot...that I have to pray more and desire less.. That I need to make my boundaries more clear and strong. Perhaps I need to write them out. That someone paying attention to me has their own agenda. I feel stupid. I don't feel heartbroken, I don't miss him, I don't want anything to do with him. I just feel like I was played. Thankfully, I didn't totally lose. But I could have and I don't want to take that chance again. I don't want to look or feel stupid. I don't want to lose my marriage. I don't want to lose my "career." 

I don't want to lose YOU.

No, I am not happy with our marriage, but it's been worse. There is not another soul on this Earth that I would even consider spending my life with. Everyone has baggage and issues and I am grateful to have the ones we have and have you to carry that cross with. 

We've come a long way. I know that this feels like it's a giant step back. But I feel the same hope I felt with all that we went through before. Maybe this will actually be the time we can build the house on a solid foundation. If we can excavate it level, I think that the foundation is finally prepared to hold the house. But we need some major changes. Prayer. Lots of it. I need you to pray for me. I always feel awkward asking you to, and therefore usually won't. But you're the most powerful prayer warrior I have. You praying for me is beyond anything. 

We need some serious effort put into our relationship. I am open to counseling if you want to try that. But at the least, a scheduled, specific program that we do regularly. 
More open communication. Less of your phone. 

I am sorry. I do love you. And I am leaving the ball in your court because I don't know what you want or need. I won't touch you. I won't invade your space. I'll try to hold my tongue. I'll be honest. I hope you'll forgive me and we can find a way to really have that marriage we've (I've) always wanted. As a team


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## sokillme

Assume you don't know the truth. Cheaters lie and they are very good at it. I'm sorry for you, it's a long hard road.

Assume you don't know the full story and that she physically cheated. Your wife has very poor boundaries and using ministry as a justification to have an EA is just immoral. It needs to stop, it also leads to a question if she is emotional mature enough to have a ministry. She should also not make her ministry something that she just attempts to do when it makes her feel good.

She needs to read Not just friends. Her boundaries with men are entirely inappropriate. 

She should also tell your pastor and any leadership she is involved with in the church. 

Is there a potential to see him still? 

You might want to at least broach the subject of a polygraph to see her reaction. 

Since she is using the cross to deflect from her behavior, look up scriptures about what the bible says about an adulterous women. Hint, it says she is death, it doesn't say anything about staying with them it actually say run. In the OT they were both to be stoned to death, in the NT it's grounds for divorce. Might want to send all of that to her. 

A lot of your recovery is going to be if you let her rug sweep and put this whole thing off on you. If you do that you will not recover I can guarantee it. You are not responsible for her cheating. 

Her letter to you seems to imply that this happened because you have a bad marriage, and you very well be partly responsible for that, but this happened because she had poor boundary. Lots of people have bad marriages, you were in the same marriage YOU didn't cheat. In fact recovery seems to entirely be up to you. She cheats and then wants you to want to work with her for a better marriage? This women is a physiologist? No marriage consoling until she figures out why she has such poor boundaries and cheated. 

Using her rules is it OK now for you to cheat, after all now you have a wife who has not one but two emotional affairs. 

This is all on your wife, fixing it should be all about her fixing herself. 

I would send her to SurvivingInfidely.com to the wayward section. She will get good advice to try to change her thinking. 

There sure are a lot of entitled women out there who feel like just because they are unhappy they can accept a bunch of complements and go out on dates with guys who are not their husbands. They make terrible wives.

She acts like she is a catch for you, but she is a women with poor boundaries who is a liar. An attractive women is propositioned all the time, so one who is not loyal makes for a worthless monogamous partner. She is not a catch. You are going to have to think about that before you R. After all now she is going to be going on reserves where there will always be other men there and maybe this guy. That is going to be a hard deal for you. Most important thing to decide if you R or not assuming their is real regret and change is what will the quality of your life be. 

However maybe your marriage can recover maybe it can't but this is the kind of thing that will take a long time to heal and require a lot of work on her part. She needs to understand that. An affair is an affair, she lied to you about it and broke you partnership and friendship. Her job as your spouse is to protect you, even emotionally. That should have nothing to do with if she is happy or not. 

Honestly her letter sucks. She doesn't get it. He played her for a fool, that is her problem? What if didn't play her for a fool would it have been OK then? She was married to you, she was not entitled to any relationship with this guy, her role was to protect you emotionally. A role that she failed at miserably. SHE DOESN'T GET IT. I hope you don't try to protect her like is probably your role normally but instead you let her face true harsh consequences for her actions. Like a child she is not going to learn if you play the KISA and don't let her feel some pain. Maybe tell her parents, kids, church leaders. She went on a few dates with another man while married to you. 

If you have read a lot then you know you do better if you take a strong hand, and the person who cheated has to face real fear and consequences. I would leave for a week. Let her suffer for a while. Don't take her calls or anything. 

If it was me I would also least go see a lawyer and tell her you are considering divorce maybe draw up terms and let her see them, even if you are not she needs to understand that this can never happen again, ever. 

:I added stuff so make sure you read again, sorry that's kind of how I roll.


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## VermiciousKnid

I really do hope that she has told you the truth. She goes to a man's apartment late at night and they sit and watch a movie? He sits across the room from her? Ahem.....


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## re16

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I also messaged the FB guy. He said nothing inappropriate was ever said, and he copied 800 pages of their texts over the past year and a half. My wife has put off allowing him to send it, first wanting to see what our counselor said (we started counseling), and then till after a business trip. Now she wants me to wait till I have a plan, as I will not like reading through these.
> 
> .


Get these texts as step one, like today.




couldhavebeenworse said:


> " At this point she told a friend she "thinks I'm in over my head,"
> 
> I saw in some texts (that didn't quite go back far enough for me) that her friend asked her in Nov of that year if she was behaving herself. She Said "Yes, sadly? Just hung out with the girls." She then went on to say she thinks he found a gf, which is fine, but doesn't understand why they can't still be friends, and wants to tell him off.
> 
> .


These are very telling statements that don't align with her story.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I have read hundreds of posts on here about other affairs, and know most of you will assume she slept with the dude at training. I sincerely doubt it. She says the only physical contact .


She was admittedly in an inappropriate relationship with another man. People in these situations lie. Anything she says about what happened, assume it is filtered to fit her storyline if not direct lies.

Why is she trying to delete all the apps. There is something more going on.

Tell her not to delete snapchat and do an imobie recover.

Start talking to OM's GF (now wife?).

Pretty much all full blown affair admissions start out like your first post. Trickle truth is coming and she knows she'll need to make up more lies once you read those texts.


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## drifting on

Could have

Your in law enforcement, familiar with polygraphs, schedule one for her and surprise her with it. Your concern is the time at his apartment, on that you are correct, but read @sokillme post again. She will lie, she showed terrible judgement in choices, she also deceived you as she knew you would be upset. Is that really all she did?


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## USD2018

Sounds like she had a run in with emotional cheating, which is what your wise marital boundaries are a safeguard against. At least, that is if both partners abide by them. 

I agree, it seems she is being open and honest now, given that she didn't hold back on letting you read through her messages and you are both in counseling. She obviously does not want to lose you.

But, she is being open after being found out. Her openness now does not cancel out the sneaky and deceitful tactics on her part to keep you in the dark while she was breaking marital boundaries. 

That is very hurtful and I am concerned that she did not consider your feelings or the standards of your marriage while she was spending time with the two men you mentioned. She might of had you in her thoughts while spending time with these two men (I assume so because her first line of defense was to scare them off by telling them she is married), but she did not consider you enough to nip these relationships in the bud as soon as they showed signs of being more than platonic. A lot of men do not care if the woman they are interested in having sex with is married. She needs a second line of defense to derail inappropriate male attention. 

The fact that she was connecting with them via social media, especially while spending time with you at home, is concerning as well. Overall, she was investing her emotions elsewhere. She was even disappointed when one of the men got a girlfriend and stopped giving her attention on Instagram. 

Women in the military, especially if they are married, need to keep a guard up. It is a well known stereotype that women get lots of attention from male peers in the service. I get the impression that she was unprepared for confrontations with temptation and she failed the tests of resisting. It's good that she did not sleep with these men. Hopefully she is being honest and truly does have a conscience that did not allow her to go that far. 

Counseling is good for your reconciliation. She needs a stronger backbone and you need to do what you have to do to trust her and heal from this breach of boundaries.

Also, I would follow sokillme's advice to a T.


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## Roselyn

Your wife has a master's degree in psychology. She is no innocent bystander. She went on dates with this guy & went to his apartment. I do not believe that she did not have sex with him. She went on dates on several occasions. From your posts, he had quit contacting her, but she pursued him. Also, it is apparent that this guy is married and is a player. He blocked her from his social media. She text him to bait him back to her & he did not pursue as she hoped. She fell back to you. She knows the consequences of her actions, but took it anyway. Now she is playing the Christian prayer card. Man, she is playing you in her little finger. 

I don't have any advice for you other than see a psychologist to set your mind in the right direction. You need to build your self-esteem. If you do not have 5 children, I would say to you to ditch your cheating wife. Sorry you are here.


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## Dutchman1

Hello Couldhavebeen worse, 

Wow ,to me a year and a half affaire is no short one.
Your wife states something is not right in the marriage, people who are happly married don't seek external validation.
I'very been on the other forum LS since 2015, and unfortunately been witness that in 98% you got only the tip of the iceberg. 

Why does your wife want to censor the mail and messages firtst? 
When they meet at the base anyway, there is no need for fb, snapshot, Instagram etc.
It could have gone underground ?

If my wife went alone with a man to his apartment and say it was for YouTube, come on.

Afraid your made the patsy.

Ask her to take a poly, as you are in law inforcment, you should know a few good ones.

Sorry man, red flags at every level. 

Good luck, don't be this beta

Dutchman 1


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## sokillme

If you have already read my post please red it again. I added a whole bunch more as I was thinking about this.

Oh and "satin didn't make her do this", SHE DID IT. Your wife right now is the worse kind of Christian. If that letter isn't all about me me me I don't know what is. 

Your wife sounds like an entitled child, very typical of wives who cheat. Is she also a SAHM? Her thinking is so self centered even after how horribly she treated you, her family and her marriage. No wonder you marriage is not good. 

One thing though, what is this stuff she is talking about you went through before? :scratchhead:


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## badmemory

The one thing that stands out, that might indicate she's telling the truth, is that the OM stopped contacting her. Men who are looking to hookup with married women have a short shelve life for being in the "friend" zone. They either reach their goal or they don't waste a whole lot of time trying. Conversely, if they did have sex you wouldn't expect him to stop contact.

That said, she completely busted through a marital boundary and set herself up for a PA. It's possible that if he didn't grow weary and end contact, she might have eventually succumbed. If she's remorseful and willing to accept consequences, then you have a good chance for a successful R - with revised boundaries and degree of transparency. She also gets extra credit for "apparently" telling you everything.

Good luck.


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## USD2018

sokillme said:


> If you have already read my post please read it again. I added a whole bunch more as I was thinking about this.
> 
> Oh and "satin didn't make her do this", SHE DID IT. Your wife right now is the worse kind of Christian. If that letter isn't all about me me me.
> 
> Your wife sounds like an entitled child, very typical of wives who cheat. Is she also a SAHM? Her thinking is so self centered even after how horribly she treated you, her family and her marriage.
> 
> One thing though, what is this stuff she is talking about you went through before? :scratchhead:


Agreed. Coming from another christian it is odd that she is deflecting responsibility onto satan. Temptation is a test for her to pass/fail. She has her own free will and satan didn't do anything to her except present some typical male advances to her that I'm pretty sure 99% of females have to encounter. 

Other posters make an excellent point, she has an MA in psychology. Which means she knows the ins and outs of how you think and operate most likely. Her faith and your marriage boundaries were already a solid foundation. Now she's moved your marriage to a landslide zone. 

Re-read sokillme's post if you haven't already. Great stuff! My personal favorite line, "Her letter sucks."


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## sa58

Recover the text messages
Polygraph test her
She went on several dates with 
another man. 

He knew she was married but so did she
He did not force her to do anything she decided
to do it. She has nobody to blame but herself.


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## Yeswecan

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Wasn't a good first impression because my feelings were that you were my spouse and could stalk all you wanted. Except that wasn't stalking and you didn't stalk me. *Perhaps you should have.*


Sigh....I guess it is all your fault. If your W was not feeling connection to you she should have said so. Your W has not really owned the continued contact(unwanted or not). Although your W claims to thwart the advances she did not cut off all forms of contact that allowed the advances to continue.


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## michzz

Pointing at Satan sets up the next phase: God has forgiven her!

Thus no explanations needed to you!

If I were you, I'd ditch this clever cheater.


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## USD2018

michzz said:


> Pointing at Satan sets up the next phase: God has forgiven her!
> 
> Thus no explanations needed to you!
> 
> If I were you, I'd ditch this clever cheater.


Be very careful not to fall for the trick of your wife staging remorse. She wasn't feeling remorseful during these relationships while everything was under wraps with you. God was still watching her even if you weren't (yet). Now all of a sudden she is remorseful to you and acknowledging that she was being tempted and she failed. She knows that this explanation will distract you from her bad character.

Wouldn't be the first time she used her faith to reinforce her behavior....I'm referring to a previous poster who highlighted the fact that she was using her ministry as an excuse to continue a relationship with the suicide man. Again, she knows this is a line of reasoning that you will accept or be disillusioned by.


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## jlg07

"I also messaged the FB guy. He said nothing inappropriate was ever said, and he copied 800 pages of their texts over the past year and a half. My wife has put off allowing him to send it, first wanting to see what our counselor said (we started counseling), and then till after a business trip. Now she wants me to wait till I have a plan, as I will not like reading through these. Again, she says she didn't flirt, send anything sexual, nothing like that, just that I won't like reading her messages to another man about life in general and the few vents she made to him about our marriage. 
"
What do you mean SHE has put off allowing it -- BS. YOU get those texts right away, with no censorship -- do NOT tell her anything about it, just do it. "you won't like them" should tell you a ton about the content. She is minimizing. You also need to do a full recovery on her phone and do NOT allow her to delete anything else. I bet you'd be shocked at what she has on snapchat which is why she's trying to delete it.... RECOVER everything off her phone ASAP.

Her letter to you also points that YOU were an issue " But I feel the same hope I felt with all that we went through before. Maybe this will actually be the time we can build the house on a solid foundation." " But I feel the same hope I felt with all that we went through before. Maybe this will actually be the time we can build the house on a solid foundation. " These "WE" things indicates that YOU are partially to blame in all this.
You are NOT -- her EA/PA is completely on HER not you.

She should leave the reserves -- you obviously can't trust her being away from you for these extended periods. Odd how she says she doesn't want " I don't want to look or feel stupid. I don't want to lose my marriage. I don't want to lose my "career." 

I don't want to lose YOU."

ALL about her -- SHE would look stupid, it would look bad for HER if she got divorced, and SHE doesn't want to lose her career. Oh yeah, btw you are in there someplace as well.

Also, the friends she spoke with about her attraction and dating this guy (YES, DATING -- and she knows it, but minimizes that in her email also) didn't have the guts to ping you? They seem toxic to your marriage.

Her email doesn't even mention that she spent a night "watching movies" at the OM's room. Again blowing smoke up your skirt I think. The whole holier than thou attitude in her email sucks.

She dated a guy for *1.5 years* SORRY -- 7-8 MONTHS! (and STILL BS -- that's still a long time) BS. She is really looking to rugsweep the whole thing and I hope you don't do that for your own sake.


----------



## Yeswecan

Yep, next it will be the following. "God has forgiven me. Why can't you?" Using the Bible in this situation is nothing more than manipulative.


----------



## michzz

michzz said:


> Pointing at Satan sets up the next phase: God has forgiven her!
> 
> Thus no explanations needed to you!
> 
> If I were you, I'd ditch this clever cheater.





USD2018 said:


> Be very careful not to fall for the trick of your wife staging remorse. She wasn't feeling remorseful during these relationships while everything was under wraps with you. God was still watching her even if you weren't (yet). Now all of a sudden she is remorseful to you and acknowledging that she was being tempted and she failed. She knows that this explanation will distract you from her bad character.
> 
> Wouldn't be the first time she used her faith to reinforce her behavior....I'm referring to a previous poster who highlighted the fact that she was using her ministry as an excuse to continue a relationship with the suicide man. Again, she knows this is a line of reasoning that you will accept or be disillusioned by.





Yeswecan said:


> Yep, next it will be the following. "God has forgiven me. Why can't you?" Using the Bible in this situation is nothing more than manipulative.


That's what my ex-wife did.

Totally tried to convince me of her spirituality and my lacking of it--as if!


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Thanks for the responses. 

"Her letter sucks", lol. Yeah, although she was trying to not trickle truth, which is why she told me about the training guy to begin with, she still did to some degree. Little things like she sent him a BD card, that he sent her a pic of him on snapchat once, (of him and his dog), how one time she wrote "hi OM" in the dirt on his truck, he got mad, so she would write "hi OM" on her corvette and send him a pic of that to show he was too uptight. She also made it seem like it was all him in that letter, that he pursued, but I have since learned she is the one that initially started texting him. However, I do believe this dude is a partner predator, based on what her coworker said. She also initially made it seem that she more or less ended the relationship by not reaching out to him, but it appears now that it was the other way around. 

I asked her about that text in January 2017, how if she was truly over him, why would she contact him again. She said she didn't know, maybe to prove there was nothing there, or maybe because she was still trying to be "friends." She admitted she probably would have gone back out with him if he had asked. 

I agree with badmemory. I am guessing he lost interest because he was not getting anywhere. He was on to a new project, most likely. I firmly believe it would have ended in a PA if he had not lost interest, if it indeed never got physical. It seems many girls will give in just to continue getting the emotional hi of the relationship, even if the PA is not what they want.

There was no 1.5 year affair. The training dude she went out with was 3-4 months. They went out a hand full of times at the end of june/beginning of july 2016. Training and the July drill weekend, which was the last weekend in July. Only saw him once after that a the wing picnic. She also, about a year ago, put life360 on all of our phones and that tracks our whereabouts. I obviously asked her after these revelations if she did that to help her control herself, but she said she no, just that she thought it would be a good thing for our family. We have a teenaged driver. The FB dude has been her friend for 5 years. They would go months without talking, then talk for a period of months, then nothing again, etc. The messages he copied to send to me are from early 2016 to Jan 18. He said they didn't talk between feb - Jun of 2016, then started talking a lot in Jul of 2016 till present. My wife told me she has only been talking to him "a lot" for the past year or so, that mostly jives with what he is saying. 800 pages though, dang. I have met the FB dude, when we bought his corvette wheels off of him. He lives several states away, however. 

She has never tried to hide her phone and I have always had access to her accounts, including email, if I wanted to. I was surprised she would not try to be more careful when training dude was sending the "Want to make out texts." her response was that I just never paid attention so she wasn't that concerned. She would either not respond or say "no thanks" and then delete the texts. 

The "other" thing we have been through in our marriage is pornography. She and I agreed that it has no place in our marriage, especially since I hide it and lie about it. The more research I do, the more I come to the conclusion porn use is bad, bad, bad. I remember barely being able to get an erection with my wife because I was so into porn. It changes your brain and is addictive, more and more studies are confirming. That being said, if anyone on here uses it and his wife agrees, is part of it, or knows about, then I can't comment, other than read the studies and make an informed decision that is right for you. 

My main problems now are 1. dealing with the feelings of betrayal. They say it is hardest for those who least expect it, and boy did I not suspect she would ever go out on a date with another man. 2. rebuilding trust when she is gone once a month with tons of dudes around, many of which are not local like my wife and stay at a hotel. 3. wondering if she is being truthful about the very limited physical contact they had 4. wondering what will happen if someone much more charming and skilled comes around. She has admitted someone else may have gotten farther with her if she had been played better. 

I will get the FB messages ASAP. I told her the other day she needs to stop holding off for the right timing. The problem is this dude won't send it without my wife's permission. She wants me to take off work and she will find a babysitter. Sounds reasonable. As for the deleted texts, I have to wait till our digital forensics guys get their new cellbrite up and running. If I find out she has been lying when I read the deleted texts, I will make the appropriate moves. 

Oh, and she has blame shifted the crap out of this. I do accept responsibility for mostly ignoring her when she says she is unhappy, but like you said, and she has said too, there is no excuse. 

Do you guys have the same experience where you wife says she is unhappy and you can't understand where in the world she is coming from? I have always viewed our marriage as strong and fulfilling, but she has many times through the years hit me with emails or talks saying she is unhappy. Guess I need to pay more attention and not be so comfortable!


----------



## GusPolinski

If either of the guys were local then you’re dealing with at least one PA as well.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Also, I'll be gone the next 4 days. I'll get back with you all next week, hopefully after reading the 800 pages.


----------



## jlg07

"I will get the FB messages ASAP. I told her the other day she needs to stop holding off for the right timing. The problem is this dude won't send it without my wife's permission. She wants me to take off work and she will find a babysitter. Sounds reasonable. As for the deleted texts, I have to wait till our digital forensics guys get their new cellbrite up and running. If I find out she has been lying when I read the deleted texts, I will make the appropriate moves. 
"
It is NOT reasonable at all. She is trying to control that you review those texts WITH HER so that she can real-time spin your reading of them. This is bs. Have her tell the guy to just send them with NO further input from her. YOU get the read them when you want not on her schedule and with her there to deflect and bs you about them.

ALSO, she said he probably could have banged her if he was a better player??!!! WTF! So why is she so different NOW that it could never happen. Even you said she is still not being truthful (SHE pursued him even though the letter made it seem the reverse). What makes you think she did NOT do anything with him the night she was at his place? Maybe THAT's why the guy ghosted her -- he got what he wanted. You should poly her on this and many more items. I still think you are missing things....

EDT: BTW, she had TWO EA's, but only the other guy was an issue? This wasn't a short thing -- this has been going on for AGES until she got caught. Again, think you are not getting the whole story, and I bet she is in contact with FB guy to have him "filter" out those texts.....


----------



## WorkingOnMe

There are definitely consequences for ignoring your spouse when they say they’re unhappy. Go ahead and call it blame shifting, it won’t change anything. Ignore your part in this at your own risk. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

couldhavebeenworse said:


> . She has admitted someone else may have gotten farther with her if she had been played better.


Are you kidding me? Where are the boundaries? From this statement alone your W has not respect for you or the marriage. Your W will be at it again...just to prove her point.


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## WorkingOnMe

How many times did you ignore her when she told you she was unhappy? For how long?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## re16

800 pages is not a "small" EA btw.


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## USD2018

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Do you guys have the same experience where you wife says she is unhappy and you can't understand where in the world she is coming from? I have always viewed our marriage as strong and fulfilling, but she has many times through the years hit me with emails or talks saying she is unhappy. Guess I need to pay more attention and not be so comfortable!


My fiancé feels this way when I tell him I am unhappy. I tell him I am unhappy because I am unhappy and want to attend couples counseling to fix our ****. and I tell him in person, never text or email. Mostly because I want him to take me seriously and pay attention. I do not drop my unhappiness on him like a bomb out of nowhere because realistically when someone is truly unhappy, it is pretty hard for others not to notice. 

Judging by the other details and evidence you've shared about your wife's communication skills (which suck), she is conflating the state of being "unhappy" with the state of being "inconvenienced." It inconveniences her to be married when she wants to be with other men. 



jlg07 said:


> "I will get the FB messages ASAP. I told her the other day she needs to stop holding off for the right timing. The problem is this dude won't send it without my wife's permission. She wants me to take off work and she will find a babysitter. Sounds reasonable. As for the deleted texts, I have to wait till our digital forensics guys get their new cellbrite up and running. If I find out she has been lying when I read the deleted texts, I will make the appropriate moves."
> 
> It is NOT reasonable at all. She is trying to control that you review those texts WITH HER so that she can real-time spin your reading of them. This is bs. Have her tell the guy to just send them with NO further input from her. YOU get the read them when you want not on her schedule and with her there to deflect and bs you about them.


Read the 800 pages on your own. You deserve to process that information your way. She will be there to manipulate your perspective. Read, listen to your gut when you are interpreting tone and mood in the conversations, and react accordingly. You don't need her breathing over your shoulder and manipulating your sense of reality in the situation. She's posing this whole formal arrangement thing as an adult thing to do, and you are falling for it. She is gas lighting you (psychological manipulation).


----------



## drifting on

Polygraph?? She was at his apartment watching movies!!!! Doesn’t like to go to the theater with you, but will him?? Polygraph her now, or do you need her permission? Also, send an email to the 800 page guy, if they aren’t in your inbox within two hours you file for divorce as they will reveal much more then she’s saying. Stop listening to her, stop listening to her bull ****, act now.


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## Taxman

First, she needs to be shocked into reality. Tell her that you no longer trust her, and that as a consequence you want a divorce. Given how she is scrambling to cover up, she will freak. Then, you say there is a possibility of reconciliation if she: Quits the reserves immediately. Allows you to call OM and have a dirty word or two. Agrees to a polygraph (somehow, I think you will get a parking lot confession-I agree with Gus) 

This is all about her. She does not want to look stupid and she does not want to lose her "career". I suggest that both need to happen.


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## Roselyn

OP, the psychologist in your wife is playing when she demands that she is there when these 800 pages in messages is going to be transmitted. She's going to play with your mind. Do not let her manipulate you. Demand that you read these pages alone.

She has blamed you for not listening to her when she said that she is unhappy. This is a manipulation tactic. I have a Ph.D. I am a university professor and has taken many courses in educational psychology. Your wife is planning to blameshift you on her infidelity. She is the pursuer in this relationship with the Other Man. He lost interest in her as he was pursuing his then gf, now his wife. Your wife was just a side piece. If you have not caught her, she would have continued to pursue this man.

Look at your wife as she is. She might have cheated before and you have not been aware of it. She would not have stopped until you caught her. You're in a bad situation. So, open your eyes when you decide what will become of your marriage.


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## Tatsuhiko

From her letter to you:



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I feel that he played me for a fool, and I am sure you agree. I think it was all a game to him, I kept telling him no I can't do whatever because I am married and it's not right.


So it's really the guy's fault. And if he had been more sincere, she might have been on board to take things a little further. Nice to know.


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## Dutchman1

couldhavebeenworse,

I feel sorry for you and your kid.

No one of us could believe/ expect that our wifes could / would do something like that.

I do not know you or your wife, but it hurts to read her bla ba, and it hurts more that you are sticking your head up your bum, and do not take the people who respond and try to help you serious.

Nobody here is waiting for the moment it all comes out, and no one will say: we told you so.

But why not give a point to point reaction to the questions asked by the members.

There are 3 members who advised you a poly, but you remain to keep your head, you know where.

It is not a joke to us, we've been there, but I wonder why you even came to this board and wrote as all is about fine and roses.

If that would be the case, why not write a funny review for your kids school paper about the last disney movie you went to see with your kid

Red flags all over , 2 affairs minimal 1 PA, and in the end it will come out as one and a half year, sorry man, It started the minute she arrived at the base.

The me, me, me letter is bullsh.... And blaming satan, is the cheesiest one ever heard in all the years.

Going to a concert than to a man's appartement having a wine and looking youtube's funniest.

Feeling sorry man, unplug your head, and take the poly route, in your gut you feel something is not ok.
Scarry? yea, but it should wake you up.

Power to you, :: do or not, there is no try.

Dutchman1


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## BobSimmons

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Do you guys have the same experience where you wife says she is unhappy


She's "unhappy" because she's probably always had poor bounderies.

She's "unhappy" because home life doesn't compare to the newness of flirting with a colleague or someone on a night out

She's "unhappy" because she partially needs to justify why she's on the slippery slip she's on when she's going to men's apartment at night and singing kumbaya and playing the accordion...

She's "unhappy" because as a woman she gets hit on in some form or another every single day, she likes it, then she has to come home to you..yes the marriage is strong but not as strong as the power of fantasy.

The power of fantasy then transitions into real life when she goes to men's apartment late at night to read their electricity meter, meter reading makes her happy.

If you think two men taking your place in your wife's head is "small", more power to you. Happy kumbaya!


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## stro

She was walking a fine line. She knew what this guy wanted and she kept putting herself in situations where it may happen. Especially the late night trip to the apartment. It’s hard to digest her version of those events. She had to be at least contemplating going further if she was willing to go there with him. Also, I don’t buy any naivity or “Satan got to me” defense. She is a big girl and was making big girl choices.


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## Dutchman1

Just a funny but true story;

28 years ago, my brother who was married 5 years, got the 100 % proof of his wife cheating. 
He didn't say anything, he screwed her silly the whole evening and night. 
When she woke up, his ring, a 5 dollar bill and a note that said: I will be back tommorow at 11, I advise you to be gone with all of your stuff.

She was gone next day, Surprise?


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## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> boy did I not suspect she would ever go out on a date with another man


The fact that you acknowledge that she as a married women went "out on a date with another man" is a very powerful statement as to the level of betrayal. Do not ever let her try to call it anything else other than a date. A date allows two people to spend time together so as to give them both an opportunity to develop romantic feelings toward each other. The problem is that you will never know what really happened on those dates. What you do know is that she went on those dates knowing that he was trying to sleep with her.


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## Yeswecan

TRy said:


> The fact that you acknowledge that she as a married women went "out on a date with another man" is a very powerful statement as to the level of betrayal. Do not ever let her try to call it anything else other than a date. A date allows two people to spend time together so as to give them both an opportunity to develop romantic feelings toward each other. The problem is that you will never know what really happened on those dates. What you do know is that she went on those dates knowing that he was trying to sleep with her.


I believe it to be she was trying to sleep with him. The W was in pursuit.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> It seems many girls will give in just to continue getting the emotional hi of the relationship, even if the PA is not what they want.


Girls who are not good choices to be married to. Seems like your wife's whole motivation is what makes her feel good emotionally. That's not love.



> She has never tried to hide her phone and I have always had access to her accounts, including email, if I wanted to. I was surprised she would not try to be more careful when training dude was sending the "Want to make out texts." her response was that I just never paid attention so she wasn't that concerned. She would either not respond or say "no thanks" and then delete the texts.


This is ridiculous. See this is the problem her job is to protect you. This always what waywords (W) don't understand. Where was her loyalty her desire to protect you?

Personally from the letter your wife doesn't seem all that invested in your marriage I think she is mostly invested in herself. Something is very off. I suspect when you start putting pressure on her she will leave, she is with you because you make her feel good. That doesn't mean you shouldn't put pressure. 

I would also suspect that this is not her first rodeo. When a women has a 5 year texting relationship with a guy who writes about hooking up it shows where her heads at. She needs to be dedicated wholeheartedly to really understanding that her way of thinking is corrupt, she doesn't even get that part yet let alone want to fix it. Unless she gets that you don't have much hope. Tell your pastor, your wife was dating another man. F-ed up. 

Have you seen a lawyer? How old are your kids? Does she have a job?


----------



## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Do you guys have the same experience where you wife says she is unhappy and you can't understand where in the world she is coming from?


If you read the Infidelity section of this site, you will see that your statement that your "wife says she is unhappy and you can't understand where in the world she is coming from" is very common among betrayed spouses. This happens because the cheater reinvents history in order to blame shift the reason for their cheating to their spouse. Similar to your experience that porn made it hard to have sex with your wife by comparison to the porn stars, your wife dating this other man (OM) made it difficult to for her to enjoy spending time with you as compared the excitement of being with the OM, thus making her unhappy when she was with you instead of the OM. Reinventing history will have her remember that she was unhappy with you before she started dating the OM, instead of truth which is that it came after the cheating. 

Your wife gave the OM home field advantage as she complained about your human failing to him, while you were not even allowed to know that she was dating him and that your marriage was under attack. This allowed the OM to go to secret war with you by focusing all of his attention on your wife, while you were doing your job helping the family get through life. Cheaters usually do not want the affair partner over the spouse. They want both the advantages of a loyal spouse and the excitement of an affair partner, both at the same time. If they need to lie to their spouse to get both, they are OK with that. Trust one thing. Your wife is an experienced liar, and you do not know the whole truth. You likely never will.


----------



## sokillme

TRy said:


> If you read the Infidelity section of this site, you will see that your statement that your "wife says she is unhappy and you can't understand where in the world she is coming from" is very common among betrayed spouses. This happens because the cheater reinvents history in order to blame shift the reason for their cheating to their spouse.


The problem with the unhappy deal is they expect the marriage to make them happy. The marriage can bring them happiness but it doesn't solve your unhappiness problem, if there is one. Besides that if she was unhappy she should have told you and if eventually nothing changed divorced you. What she did was find another man to date. 

Like I said in the first post ask her if now that you are unhappy that she was having dates should you now go out and date too?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Tell her if Satan got into her that you're going to assume he's still there and is lying, falsely projecting the image of a good wife.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

re16 had an excellent point in a post back on page one of this thread.....

Your WW’s messages to her girlfriend about being sad she was having to be a good girl.....and how she couldn’t understand why what had happened meant they couldn’t be friends.....and that she was angry enough to want to tell him off....

These do not fit the story she has told you at all....

She has painted a picture to you that he was rudely suggestive to her in ways she found distasteful and unwanted.....and she was glad to shut it down.

That doesn’t sound anything like what she was telling her friend.

And to Bad Memory’s point that he may have drifted away because he wasn’t getting anywhere with her....

Very possible....

But it’s also possible that her was a total player who DID get everything he wanted.....and he distanced himself from her because he didn’t want any drama or continuing pursuit from your WW because, if caught and exposed, it could lead to major headaches for him....

In other words, in player parlance, he ‘hit it and quit it’.....and was moving on to his next target.

As a couple others have pointed out.....going back to his apartment to watch a movie, and sitting on opposite side of the room just talking for hours sounds a little fishy....

Does this guy sound like the type who would not have made a move to you?

I mean, he was already being sexually suggestive with your WW when he got her to go to his room......don’t you think he would have thought he had her and tried to close the deal?

Instead he just curls up on a seat away from her for hours of gabbing?

And why in the heck would your WW even agree to go there at all since she knew he was telling her he was sexually interested?

She can’t be naive enough to think that he just wanted to watch a film and have a deep conversation.....

But your WW surely believes that YOU must be naive enough to buy this story she is selling.


----------



## TAMAT

CouldHaveBeenWorse,

My guess is that she at least kissed one of these guys and if so it's not "just kissing" but is a physical affair.

She is engaging in lying, minimization and omission.

Did she ever say to you something like "I love you but am not in love with you"?

The pattern you may have noticed is that initially your sex life improved, this occurs when the emotional connection to OM is in the early stage and actual physical cheating seems impossible but she is aroused by OM, as it progresses to a full blown emotional affair she stops all affection and sex with you as it is now cheating on OM and her loyalty has shifted.

Tamat


----------



## ABHale

couldhavebeenworse said:


> letter about attractive dude at training:
> 
> Dear BH,
> 
> I am certain you don't care, but I really am sorry that I hurt you. I am sorry for making poor decisions. I am sorry for betraying your trust. I am sorry for hiding all of this from you. I have taken it to confession on multiple occasions and feel that I have been able to break any bonds there. I have no desire to see or talk to him again. I have no desire to end up in another situation such as that. I feel that he played me for a fool, and I am sure you agree. I think it was all a game to him, I kept telling him no I can't do whatever because I am married and it's not right. He basically told me how stupid it was that I couldn't "talk" to a guy because I was married. Hard to defend that to someone not married. So I think it was a game to see how many of my rules I would break. Obviously a good number. Satan did well.
> 
> I feel like I told you most of it in the texting, though I am sure you have more questions.
> 
> The first couple weeks he was friendly enough, but other than a couple of odd comments that strangely rang of jealousy to me, uneventful. One of the first couple days (maybe that first day) you were trying to get ahold of me to get (our son's) number. I had a number of texts and missed calls from you when I looked at my phone. I mentioned that I needed to step outside to call you as you had called 8 times or whatever it was. He replied "stalker much?" I thought that bizarre, especially since he didn't know me at all and simply stated he needed to get ahold of the kids and didn't have the number and walked away. Wasn't a good first impression because my feelings were that you were my spouse and could stalk all you wanted. Except that wasn't stalking and you didn't stalk me. Perhaps you should have.
> 
> I cannot recall the other comment at this time. I just remember thinking he sounded jealous. And thought wth, you aren't my anything, why do you care?
> 
> After the first couple weeks, he came to dinner with (suicide dude) and I. I was so relieved to spend any time with someone other than (suicide dude). Especially because he was a mess could talk of nothing but his girl problems for hours. Working with someone, eating lunch with someone, eating dinner with someone...and having that someone talk ALL THAT TIME about his problems is quite overwhelming. Add in that (suicide dude) was causing marital stress. You were constantly pissed, not that I blame you but you wouldn't look at it logically, and even when I came home on the weekends you weren't interested in spending time with me. It was a crappy time.
> 
> So we texted a few times. Couldn't tell you what about, nothing of consequence. I can only remember saying anything negative about you twice. Once when there was shock I hadn't seen the latest star wars movie and I said because you went without me. And once when your mom was up and you were driving people around in the corvette while I cleaned bathrooms.
> 
> While driving back to (Base) one sunday he asked if I was back and wanted to go see the movie. I said I wouldn't be in until late (9 or something )but I knew (suicide dude) was back already and I was sure he'd go with him. He said some not nice things about him and how he didn't want to go see a movie with him because he never shut up etc. Said there was a 10 oclock showing. I said I would see if (suicide dude) would want to go that late. He flipped out about how I couldn't go anywhere without (suicide dude). I replied that I was married, I couldn't be going to movies with other guys. He gave me some sob story about how his life sucks and he just needs to get out and relax or whatever and he was tired of going to movies alone and it was just a movie not a proposal, etc. I felt bad, thought it's just a movie. I am sorry. It really was a terrible movie and I probably slept through half of it. Not that that matters. I'm still shocked that he could make me feel guilty and that I went. I am sure you are too.
> 
> I wish I had gone back to my room and told you and apologized and that was the end of it.
> 
> I only had like a week left. We went to get dinner the night before I left I think. Some Mexican place. And then went to a bar downtown. I went to a bar with him another night but another couple guys were there, too.
> 
> The concert, like I said, he was planning to go with a guy from work but surprised him and the guy couldn't go. He said he asked around and couldn't find anyone who was free. It was drill weekend and originally I had a great excuse because it was the night of (some girls) baby shower. Then (some girl) didn't come that weekend. So I stupidly agreed, again because he played the pity card.
> 
> I think that was the last time I saw him, other than for a bit at the wing picnic in September. We chatted with some of the other people we knew, nothing then except me making a comment about someone's cute baby and him asking me if I wanted to go make one. I said no thank you.
> 
> He never directly propositioned me other than that. He said he was going to shower and asked if I wanted to join him. I said no thank you.
> 
> He made a comment a few times about how he'd try anything once. I don't remember the context but the first time the comment was just odd to me. The second time I was like is he implying something? The third I asked if he was implying something. And said I was married. He said something to the affirmative. I was shocked.. I am sure you are not, but I really was. I clarified " so if I said come on up to my room, what would you say?' He replied that he'd say why the hell not or something to that effect. "Even knowing that I am married??" Lots of girls are technically married. That doesn't mean they are looking for something. I wanted to tell him that was the worst pick up line ever. Definitely didn't make me want to do something "I'll try anything once." Wasn't feeling special with that one. But I just said I'm not. Sorry. and walked away.
> 
> He messaged me on the computer one drill weekend, still in that time frame.(some guy) saw it come up, asked why I was talking to him. Proceeded to tell me that he was a douche bag who kept trying to sleep with his wife when she got to (base). (They were broken up at the time.) Said stay away from him. While I wish he'd said something sooner, not sure I'd have listened because (some guy) hates everyone.
> 
> I am sorry. I am not only sorry for you but for me. I am super disappointed in myself. Especially because in hindsight he is not worth my time much less my marriage. For a few brief seconds he made me feel special and important, but as I got to know him I realized he is quite the narcissist and I doubt he could tell you much of anything about me. He didn't ask, he didn't care. He was looking to meet his needs and I guess I was, too. Thankfully, our needs weren't the same.
> 
> I learned a lot...that I have to pray more and desire less.. That I need to make my boundaries more clear and strong. Perhaps I need to write them out. That someone paying attention to me has their own agenda. I feel stupid. I don't feel heartbroken, I don't miss him, I don't want anything to do with him. I just feel like I was played. Thankfully, I didn't totally lose. But I could have and I don't want to take that chance again. I don't want to look or feel stupid. I don't want to lose my marriage. I don't want to lose my "career."
> 
> I don't want to lose YOU.
> 
> No, I am not happy with our marriage, but it's been worse. There is not another soul on this Earth that I would even consider spending my life with. Everyone has baggage and issues and I am grateful to have the ones we have and have you to carry that cross with.
> 
> We've come a long way. I know that this feels like it's a giant step back. But I feel the same hope I felt with all that we went through before. Maybe this will actually be the time we can build the house on a solid foundation. If we can excavate it level, I think that the foundation is finally prepared to hold the house. But we need some major changes. Prayer. Lots of it. I need you to pray for me. I always feel awkward asking you to, and therefore usually won't. But you're the most powerful prayer warrior I have. You praying for me is beyond anything.
> 
> We need some serious effort put into our relationship. I am open to counseling if you want to try that. But at the least, a scheduled, specific program that we do regularly.
> More open communication. Less of your phone.
> 
> I am sorry. I do love you. And I am leaving the ball in your court because I don't know what you want or need. I won't touch you. I won't invade your space. I'll try to hold my tongue. I'll be honest. I hope you'll forgive me and we can find a way to really have that marriage we've (I've) always wanted. As a team


 This is complete bs. Your wife is blaming everyone including Satan for everything that had happened except herself. She has also left out everything that would’ve made it a emotional affair or physical affair. I don’t believe she is telling the truth.


----------



## chillymorn69

My opinion take it or leave it. Not trying to be an ass here. BUT, your wife is most likley a serial cheater.

Might want to cut your losses.


----------



## sokillme

chillymorn69 said:


> My opinion take it or leave it. Not trying to be an ass here. BUT, your wife is most likley a serial cheater.
> 
> Might want to cut your losses.


I agree with this assessment. The letter reads like she is a narcissist.


----------



## Andy1001

sokillme said:


> I agree with this assessment. The letter reads like she is a narcissist.


The title of this thread reminds me of an old story where the woman in question was “a little bit pregnant”
I have never heard of someone having a “small affair”.
Much less two.


----------



## Windwalker

OP,

You probably don't need another person piling on, but I'm going to anyways.

Your wife is a ****ing liar.
She is a cheater. Which goes hand in hand with being a liar. She is manipulating. Drag out the Satan card? What in the actual ****? She must think you're the most ignorant man on the planet. 

She already admitted that she might have given in to a "smoother talker". More lies and BS. Jesus himself would have a hard time convincing me she didn't have sex with at least one of them. I will lay money that this isn't her first rodeo. And she will sure as hell do it again if you give her half a chance. 

Nope, she a cheater of the lowest order, and one of the lowest I have seen in a while. 

Sorry for the 2x4,but you need it.
She's going to eat you alive if given the chance.


----------



## Townes

I know everyone wants to put their head in the sand in these situations and believe their wives are just naive with poor boundaries, but c'mon man! Use your head.


----------



## ABHale

Could have been,

Think about it. No guy like the OM is going to continue anything with your wife unless he was making progress around the bases. He is not going to waste his time with a wife that refuses to give anything up. He is going to go on to someone else if he wasn’t getting play time with your wife. 

So why did he hang on for so long?

Also your wife contacting him again could have been her wanting to feel again the way he made her feel. She even admitted she would have gone out with him again if he would have. But he had already gotten what he wanted from her so he was off to new pastures. 

Your wife is lying to you. I don’t know how far she went but it wasn’t just a EA.


----------



## As'laDain

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> "Her letter sucks", lol. Yeah, although she was trying to not trickle truth, which is why she told me about the training guy to begin with, she still did to some degree. Little things like she sent him a BD card, that he sent her a pic of him on snapchat once, (of him and his dog), how one time she wrote "hi OM" in the dirt on his truck, he got mad, so she would write "hi OM" on her corvette and send him a pic of that to show he was too uptight. She also made it seem like it was all him in that letter, that he pursued, but I have since learned she is the one that initially started texting him. However, I do believe this dude is a partner predator, based on what her coworker said. She also initially made it seem that she more or less ended the relationship by not reaching out to him, but it appears now that it was the other way around.
> 
> I asked her about that text in January 2017, how if she was truly over him, why would she contact him again. She said she didn't know, maybe to prove there was nothing there, or maybe because she was still trying to be "friends." She admitted she probably would have gone back out with him if he had asked.
> 
> I agree with badmemory. I am guessing he lost interest because he was not getting anywhere. He was on to a new project, most likely. I firmly believe it would have ended in a PA if he had not lost interest, if it indeed never got physical. It seems many girls will give in just to continue getting the emotional hi of the relationship, even if the PA is not what they want.
> 
> There was no 1.5 year affair. The training dude she went out with was 3-4 months. They went out a hand full of times at the end of june/beginning of july 2016. Training and the July drill weekend, which was the last weekend in July. Only saw him once after that a the wing picnic. She also, about a year ago, put life360 on all of our phones and that tracks our whereabouts. I obviously asked her after these revelations if she did that to help her control herself, but she said she no, just that she thought it would be a good thing for our family. We have a teenaged driver. The FB dude has been her friend for 5 years. They would go months without talking, then talk for a period of months, then nothing again, etc. The messages he copied to send to me are from early 2016 to Jan 18. He said they didn't talk between feb - Jun of 2016, then started talking a lot in Jul of 2016 till present. My wife told me she has only been talking to him "a lot" for the past year or so, that mostly jives with what he is saying. 800 pages though, dang. I have met the FB dude, when we bought his corvette wheels off of him. He lives several states away, however.
> 
> She has never tried to hide her phone and I have always had access to her accounts, including email, if I wanted to. I was surprised she would not try to be more careful when training dude was sending the "Want to make out texts." her response was that I just never paid attention so she wasn't that concerned. She would either not respond or say "no thanks" and then delete the texts.
> 
> The "other" thing we have been through in our marriage is pornography. She and I agreed that it has no place in our marriage, especially since I hide it and lie about it. The more research I do, the more I come to the conclusion porn use is bad, bad, bad. I remember barely being able to get an erection with my wife because I was so into porn. It changes your brain and is addictive, more and more studies are confirming. That being said, if anyone on here uses it and his wife agrees, is part of it, or knows about, then I can't comment, other than read the studies and make an informed decision that is right for you.
> 
> My main problems now are 1. dealing with the feelings of betrayal. They say it is hardest for those who least expect it, and boy did I not suspect she would ever go out on a date with another man. 2. rebuilding trust when she is gone once a month with tons of dudes around, many of which are not local like my wife and stay at a hotel. 3. wondering if she is being truthful about the very limited physical contact they had 4. wondering what will happen if someone much more charming and skilled comes around. She has admitted someone else may have gotten farther with her if she had been played better.
> 
> I will get the FB messages ASAP. I told her the other day she needs to stop holding off for the right timing. The problem is this dude won't send it without my wife's permission. She wants me to take off work and she will find a babysitter. Sounds reasonable. As for the deleted texts,* I have to wait till our digital forensics guys get their new cellbrite up and running. If I find out she has been lying when I read the deleted texts, I will make the appropriate moves*.
> 
> Oh, and she has blame shifted the crap out of this. I do accept responsibility for mostly ignoring her when she says she is unhappy, but like you said, and she has said too, there is no excuse.
> 
> Do you guys have the same experience where you wife says she is unhappy and you can't understand where in the world she is coming from? I have always viewed our marriage as strong and fulfilling, but she has many times through the years hit me with emails or talks saying she is unhappy. Guess I need to pay more attention and not be so comfortable!



WOAH!!! you had better make sure that is legal. i dont know how it is for you law enforcement guys, but if i used a cellbrite or XRY or what have you on my WIFE'S phone and someone found out about it, i would go to prison for LIFE. you arent restricted by the same regulations i am, but you might want to make DAMNED certain that you aren't doing something illegal. i do know of some FBI agents and some US Marshals that are spending life in prison for using those and other technologies to catch their wives cheating on them.


----------



## Windwalker

As'laDain said:


> WOAH!!! you had better make sure that is legal. i dont know how it is for you law enforcement guys, but if i used a cellbrite or XRY or what have you on my WIFE'S phone and someone found out about it, i would go to prison for LIFE. you arent restricted by the same regulations i am, but you might want to make DAMNED certain that you aren't doing something illegal. i do know of some FBI agents and some US Marshals that are spending life in prison for using those and other technologies to catch their wives cheating on them.


Can you explain? How is this different than using an application like Dr phone or something.

Granted its probably far more sophisticated, but what's the difference?


----------



## As'laDain

Windwalker said:


> Can you explain? How is this different than using an application like Dr phone or something.
> 
> Granted its probably far more sophisticated, but what's the difference?


those of us who use such devices as part of our jobs have rules and regulations that govern how we use them. they vary with agencies and the agencies purpose and scope, but to violate them can EASILY land someone in prison. i cant really get into it much more than that...


----------



## Windwalker

As'laDain said:


> those of us who use such devices as part of our jobs have rules and regulations that govern how we use them. they vary with agencies and the agencies purpose and scope, but to violate them can EASILY land someone in prison. i cant really get into it much more than that...


Fair enough.. I understand the government reqs. I have done quite a bit of government work. Lots of things I still can't take about. Lol. 

Thank you.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP....

I know a lot of the plot holes posters have pointed out in your WW’s story (myself included) are probably upsetting to hear and have your mind racing.

Remember though.....no one is claiming they KNOW she had a PA.....

What we are trying to do is shake you out of your expressed certainty that YOU know she would not have crossed that line.

If YOU remain in denial about the possibility your WW is lying, then you are going to fail to investigate these parts of her story that do not fit together with the evidence you have such as the messages with her girlfriend.....

In other words, you will become an active assistant in accomplishing the goal your WW’s email most clearly expresses.....

Rugsweeping what has happened and putting the past behind you, never to be addressed again.

Also.....I think you need to prioritize your focus some.....

Corvette Boy, based on all the info you have shared so far, seems to be far less serious of a situation than whatever your WW is trying to hide about the Player at her training, who she admits to mutual sexual attraction feelings with AND having spent time alone with in the privacy of his room.

THAT is where your focus needs to be.


----------



## OutofRetirement

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I wanted to tell him that was the worst pick up line ever. Definitely didn't make me want to do something "I'll try anything once." Wasn't feeling special with that one.


I get the sense that she still is a bit upset about this, the way she wrote it. She's still feeling stung, that she wasn't special. So I guess it was all about making her feel special. I guess that's why she's angry at you. You don't make her feel special. Very possible it's tough to make someone feel special all the time when you actually have to do real-type stuff, like chores, cleaning the bathroom while your husband wants to spend time with him mom because mom doesn't travel here often.

I'm disturbed that she doesn't see this, it seems. That this guy could make her feel special (at least for most of the time, and enough that she only stopped contacting him after he basically ghosted her), because that's ALL he had with her - no kids, no chores, no finances, etc. - just trying to make her special.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> in hindsight he is not worth my time much less my marriage. For a few brief seconds he made me feel special and important, but as I got to know him I realized he is quite the narcissist and I doubt he could tell you much of anything about me. He didn't ask, he didn't care. He was looking to meet his needs and I guess I was, too.


Here we go again. He made her feel special AND important. And she still is feeling stung about this, she's not quite over it yet. She was with him because she was "looking to meet [her] needs" she guesses. She's even complaining about it with you.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I learned a lot...That someone paying attention to me has their own agenda. I feel stupid. I don't feel heartbroken, I don't miss him, I don't want anything to do with him. I just feel like I was played.


Yeah, I think she doth protest too much. She can't believe he tricked her and was able to "act" like he thought she was special by paying attention to her. She WAS heartbroken, she DID miss him, she DID want to do stuff with him. That's the way I see it. Now she feels stupid she was played. But she DID feel all those other things. That's the cheater script you're getting, that he never was truly a threat to you. He was.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> Thankfully, I didn't totally lose. But *I could have* and I don't want to *take that chance again*.


Am I wrong, or did she just tell you she could have had sex with him and been with him IF he wasn't just playing, but he really meant it, of if she thought so. I really don't think, in my opinion, any doubt that you'd be on the outside looking in to her and him if he really wanted the whole her and not just the part between her legs.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> No, I am not happy with our marriage, but it's been worse. There is not another soul on this Earth that I would even consider spending my life with. Everyone has baggage and issues and I am grateful to have the ones we have and have you to carry that cross with. We've come a long way. I know that this feels like it's a giant step back. But I feel the same hope I felt with all that we went through before.


Well, it sounds like you've been down this road before. Or something bad. Was it you or was it her? I'm guessing her, with you having the two rules that she broke. Who implemented the written rules and why? I'm a normal guy, I don't think too many guys (or women) start up rules of behavior when getting married. I think at the time of marriage, most people think they'll never fall out of love and will never betray the other one and the other never will betray them. So did you really have that much foresight, or was there some bad juju from the past?



couldhavebeenworse said:


> we need some major changes. We need some serious effort put into our relationship. I am open to counseling if you want to try that. But at the least, a scheduled, specific program that we do regularly.
> More open communication. *Less of your phone.*


So you're on your phone too much. That's the main thing, I guess. That's the symptom. She need changes because YOU need some serious effort put into our relationship. She needs YOU to be have more open communication. You do get that, don't you? She's blaming YOU for the crappy marriage. "not happy with our marriage," "it's been worse" means it's about as low as it could be and really crappy. She has long-term deep-seated resentment for you. That's why she needs to delay the 800-pages of complaining about you and FB dude actually probably standing up for you. She needs to sit with you and explain how YOU aren't OPEN to communication while she tells FB dude, and not you.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I am sorry. I do love you. And I am leaving the ball in your court. I hope ... we can find a way to really have that marriage we've *(I've)* always wanted. *As a team*



Wow. You know that "I *do* love you" is a whole far cry from "I love you," right? "I _do_ love you" kind of implies that "in spite of your many deficiencies and major faults, I do love you." The only thing worse than that would be "I _*still do*_ love you."

It's all there if you want to hear it. This missive is all about HER getting the marriage SHE already wanted.

I sincerely and genuinely think you really could reconcile. I think she has a lot of resentment and anger that likely spilled out to FB dude. Probably 799 pages worth. The attractive dude, I'd be interested in the texts and messages with him. I don't know if she's full of it about your being majorly at fault in the marriage but she just had a _"For a few brief seconds he made me feel special and important,"_ and who could blame her for that? He was a darn predator!

I find it extremely manipulative to hold back the texts until she positions it into whatever place she wants to get you into. She'll give it to you, but ONLY if some stranger she pays to make her feel good says so. Do you not see it like that? Do you think her counselor really knows what's best FOR YOU? No way, man. Her counselor knows what's right for your wife, because your wife tells her. Plus, how would you even know what the counselor says about it? It's all up to your wife. You're at her mercy if you ever find the truth.


----------



## BobSimmons

OutofRetirement said:


> I'm disturbed that she doesn't see this, it seems.


Make no mistake women see this. They see this coming from miles away before the man even makes the first move. 

Unless the woman has lived in a vacuum since she hit puberty and been unexposed to males, then they will have seen every side look, every stare, damn near every come on, opening line, type of compliment, set up to making of said compliment.

Even if the male was strictly plutonic and suddenly dropped the compliment, she still replied and continued on, so feigning ignorance is a non starter.


----------



## Chaparral

Dyokemm said:


> OP,
> 
> re16 had an excellent point in a post back on page one of this thread.....
> 
> Your WW’s messages to her girlfriend about being sad she was having to be a good girl.....and how she couldn’t understand why what had happened meant they couldn’t be friends.....and that she was angry enough to want to tell him off....
> 
> These do not fit the story she has told you at all....
> 
> She has painted a picture to you that he was rudely suggestive to her in ways she found distasteful and unwanted.....and she was glad to shut it down.
> 
> That doesn’t sound anything like what she was telling her friend.
> 
> And to Bad Memory’s point that he may have drifted away because he wasn’t getting anywhere with her....
> 
> Very possible....
> 
> But it’s also possible that her was a total player who DID get everything he wanted.....and he distanced himself from her because he didn’t want any drama or continuing pursuit from your WW because, if caught and exposed, it could lead to major headaches for him....
> 
> In other words, in player parlance, he ‘hit it and quit it’.....and was moving on to his next target.
> 
> As a couple others have pointed out.....going back to his apartment to watch a movie, and sitting on opposite side of the room just talking for hours sounds a little fishy....
> 
> Does this guy sound like the type who would not have made a move to you?
> 
> I mean, he was already being sexually suggestive with your WW when he got her to go to his room......don’t you think he would have thought he had her and tried to close the deal?
> 
> Instead he just curls up on a seat away from her for hours of gabbing?
> 
> And why in the heck would your WW even agree to go there at all since she knew he was telling her he was sexually interested?
> 
> She can’t be naive enough to think that he just wanted to watch a film and have a deep conversation.....
> 
> But your WW surely believes that YOU must be naive enough to buy this story she is selling.


All this in a nut shell. What she has told you does not even come close to what you found. Therefore you need to understand cheater logic. Things are at least ten times worse than what they admit to. 

After he “hit it and guit it,” she continued to chase him. He got what he wanted and she felt like she was played and dumped. Her continued massages was because she could not accept/believe it.
The big lie is how many dates they went on and how many movie nights they had.

Dude, google “Netflix and chill” . Go to my place and watch a movie is classier sounding than let’s go effff.

She’s unhappy, she dates other men = she doesn’t love you. This isn’t rocket science.

Why do you not explain why she says she is unhappy. Happiness is the responsibility of each individual. Since you thought every thing was good, she is making herself unhappy. How?

If I am not mistaken, I think I read the other day Snapchat will bring back messages if the original acct holder re downloads the app with the same info they originally used.

Does your wife go out with girls on girls nights out?


----------



## OutofRetirement

> I work for a law enforcement agency and told her I would recover all of the texts.


Don't do anything stupid and get yourself fired or worse.


----------



## arbitrator

*When the OM is making off the cuff remarks about "want to go try to make a baby," and she flippantly dismisses it, tells me that that remark had likely also been made at a prior utterance!

I'd be just a tad concerned about the possibility of a PA, more especially if her response to it then was more of an enthusiastic one!*


----------



## VladDracul

As'laDain said:


> WOAH!!! you had better make sure that is legal. i dont know how it is for you law enforcement guys, but if i used a cellbrite or XRY or what have you on my WIFE'S phone and someone found out about it, i would go to prison for LIFE.


Where the are are you, north Korea. Plus, you don't have to take out a billboard saying what you did. Its illegal to willy nilly check somebody's criminal background on NCIC but its done every day. Being illegal and getting caught doing something illegal are two different dogs.


----------



## lucy999

Your wife is s Jesus cheater - the very worst kind IMO. Hiding behind her "ministry" to cheat. 

She is SOOO full of BS. I don't have to parse it out because other posters have done just that. It would just be repetitive. The whole thing is an overflowing, stenching bag of BS.


----------



## Malaise

couldhavebeenworse said:


> So, my main reason for writing this is just to get everyone's take. Definitely working on reconciliation.* Definitely believe she is being open and honest. *I have logged in to all of her social media accounts. Definitely will be reading the FB messages, definitely will be recovering the texts. Definitely hurt by this because we have tight boundaries on our marriage and she broke two of them.


Then why are you still digging?


----------



## Windwalker

The whole "Netflix and chill" BS is just so damned irritateing.

The millennium generation and the modern hook up culture have devalued sex so much that the term is synonymous for ****ing. It nothing more than a FWB booty call.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wha...34.mobile-heirloom-serp..1.5.1074.N7MbltcUS-M

Seriously, it's on Wikipedia for ****s sake.


----------



## As'laDain

VladDracul said:


> Where the are are you, north Korea. Plus, you don't have to take out a billboard saying what you did. Its illegal to willy nilly check somebody's criminal background on NCIC but its done every day. Being illegal and getting caught doing something illegal are two different dogs.


i dont even know how to respond to the above...

im not in north korea, but the good old US of A.


----------



## VladDracul

How about this for responding As'laDain. Give me the name of someone from the FBI, or U.S. Marshal that's doing life for using "those and other technologies to catch their wives cheating on them". The worst I've ever heard is a demotion or maybe fired for up to and including phonying up and embellishing stuff for a FISA warrant. Up until I'm aware of an actual case, I'll take your statement with several grains of salt.


----------



## michzz

As'laDain said:


> ... i do know of some FBI agents and some US Marshals that are *spending life in prison* for using those and other technologies to catch their wives cheating on them.


That's seems like a bit of an exaggeration.


----------



## [email protected]

Listen to sokillme. He's got your WW pegged. She cheated! Anyhow, women in the services are notorious for cheating. She's been thrown together
with other guys for odd hours and days - the temptation is always there. Best advice: File on her.


----------



## As'laDain

michzz said:


> That's seems like a bit of an exaggeration.


it isnt.


----------



## Sparta

OP be advised your wife had a physical affair.! I repeat be advised your wife had a physical affair.! Now I get it. It’s a defense mechanism you’re going to be hit with PTSD. you’re going to need counseling but I’ll tell you what I am never wrong this woman is one of the worst she’s throwing out the Satan card and she’s a master degree in psychology... she shows no remorse... (saying it mildly) blame shift., The best thing you could do is give her wishes release this Satan she disrespected your family and you most of all she has absolutely no respect for you dude run.! to even think and you try to the protector you need help this is one of the worst cases of a WW I’ve almost ever seen. This one is not fixable buddy sorry straight up no R.... she’s not capable release the Satan out of your life.


----------



## thedope

THis is easy POLYGRAPH. Don’t let her gas light you. If she is innocent of the physical affair she shouldn’t have any problems. She also shouldn’t called you paranoid, because you know she went to a guys apartment alone. Most people would guess sex occurred.


----------



## Sports Fan

A few realities you are not going to like. Your wife most likely had an affair. Nobody goes out alone with the opposite sex let alone to their house and nothing physical happened. You are being trickled truthed. Plenty of examples on here. Of more recent note a story from Scuba Steve, who when caught his wife cheating he was fed a line of 5 times physical with the other man when in reality they fu...cked liked rabbits. Your wife's affair is physical i guarantee it. You need to work out some stern consequences and how you are going to proceed. You cannot rug sweep this. Your title already indicates you are prepared to rug sweep and not acknowledge the truth.


----------



## michzz

As'laDain said:


> those of us who use such devices as part of our jobs have rules and regulations that govern how we use them. they vary with agencies and the agencies purpose and scope, but to violate them can EASILY land someone in prison. i cant really get into it much more than that...





VladDracul said:


> How about this for responding As'laDain. Give me the name of someone from the FBI, or U.S. Marshal that's doing life for using "those and other technologies to catch their wives cheating on them". The worst I've ever heard is a demotion or maybe fired for up to and including phonying up and embellishing stuff for a FISA warrant. Up until I'm aware of an actual case, I'll take your statement with several grains of salt.





michzz said:


> That's seems like a bit of an exaggeration.





As'laDain said:


> it isnt.


You have me curious. Can you point us to any reference for these claims?

I would love to read up on it since you said there were "some" (not one, not two).


----------



## As'laDain

michzz said:


> You have me curious. Can you point us to any reference for these claims?
> 
> I would love to read up on it since you said there were "some" (not one, not two).


sorry, no. i raised the warning, if y'all want to take it with a grain of salt, go ahead.


----------



## michzz

As'laDain said:


> sorry, no. i raised the warning, if y'all want to take it with a grain of salt, go ahead.


Is that the same thing as saying you made it up?

Because if you cannot even point to one instance, it effectively is the same thing as pulling it out of thin air.

So....


----------



## As'laDain

michzz said:


> Is that the same thing as saying you made it up?
> 
> Because if you cannot even point to one instance, it effectively is the same thing as pulling it out of thin air.
> 
> So....


no, im saying i am not talking about this any further.


----------



## Chaparral

How about just using google and stopping the thread jack.


----------



## oneMOreguy

michzz said:


> Is that the same thing as saying you made it up?
> 
> Because if you cannot even point to one instance, it effectively is the same thing as pulling it out of thin air.
> 
> So....


32 years as federal leo. Misuse of authority (equipment, databases, etc) indeed lands folks in jail at times. Just depends on circumstances, the victim, and really how compelling the case is. Civilians using advanced monitoring and tracking stuff once in a while lands one in jail. I would never say to not do these things to find an affair, but you need to know the risk and consequences. Your confrontation on this issue seems improper from my perspective.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


----------



## michzz

oneMOreguy said:


> 32 years as federal leo. Misuse of authority (equipment, databases, etc) indeed lands folks in jail at times. Just depends on circumstances, the victim, and really how compelling the case is. Civilians using advanced monitoring and tracking stuff once in a while lands one in jail. I would never say to not do these things to find an affair, but you need to know the risk and consequences. Your confrontation on this issue seems improper from my perspective.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


From my perspective, it's asking for clarification since the poster is recommending a course of action to the OP. Life in prison is a seriously big term to risk. so it seems reasonable to me to point to the data the poster was referencing. Lacking that? Just more internet whiff.


----------



## MAJDEATH

oneMOreguy said:


> 32 years as federal leo. Misuse of authority (equipment, databases, etc) indeed lands folks in jail at times. Just depends on circumstances, the victim, and really how compelling the case is. Civilians using advanced monitoring and tracking stuff once in a while lands one in jail. I would never say to not do these things to find an affair, but you need to know the risk and consequences. Your confrontation on this issue seems improper from my perspective.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


OP I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep whatever you find to yourself, so you know the whole truth. They make products now that allow you to listen to both sides of all calls made, read all texts, emails, social media posts, etc. As far as the OP goes, confront him and tell him to stay away from your W. Don't tell him that you suspect that your W is really the aggressor. If you chase him with a baseball bat down the hallway at the reserve center, he may just confess and say that she pursued him.


----------



## MAJDEATH

I spent over 10 yrs in the military reserves. Due to the unique situation of females being in a male-dominated profession, it was not uncommon to see the females modeling strong, successful male leadership behavior - such as picking-up members of the opposite sex for a quick tumble in the sack. They see the guys do it and their respect level increases because they "get what they want". But when females do it, the results are opposite - especially if they are married. There is a double standard and it is real. Heck I've seen a reasonable successful female helicopter pilot try this and it backfired on her, big time. They took the command away from her and stuck her with a not so great co-pilot in a crappy unit. She ended up getting shot down and lost her legs.


----------



## Dyokemm

I hope OP is coming back....or at least still reading.

Notice he stopped posting when others pointed out that his WW’s story had glaring plot holes and inconsistencies.....after he had stated he believed completely she was being honest with him about the extent of what happened.

Hope he has not decided to rugsweep all this.....as was very clear from her letter that his WW was wanting him to do, basically to put it all in the past and focus on the future..

If that happens....usually the thread goes forever dead (like the poster of a few months ago whose W had suddenly been diagnosed with two strains of sexually transmitted HPV, but he was determined to believe her story of complete faithfulness with a lack of any plausible explanation of how this happened).....

Or, the unfortunate OP comes back much later with a “I should have listened to you guys before, you were all right” after they get burned again.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

First, its my phone, not my wife's. It is now in the possession of my son. I told our Digital guys why I wanted to recover texts, in addition to seeing how their system works. Our regional director came in and was told we were running one of my old phones. I can see your point, though. I would never use NCIC or something like that for unethical purposes. But, I contacted a PI and may just have him run the phone. It was almost two years ago, and my son has been using in for the past year, so I doubt there is much left to recover, it's probably all overwritten.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

I sent an email to the OM. Basically told him, that as he knows, I am a federal agent, and know several military agents on his installation. (which is actually true) I told him I have recovered all of the texts and considered turning them over to the military agents for sexual harassment. (which is not true, I don't have the texts, nor would I turn him in). I told him I know all the times they hung out and all physical contact. I mentioned the a few of the places they hung out, to prove I had talked to my wife, and left the Physical contact part vague (as my wife says there was none, other than him touching her back twice and one sideways hug while others were around).


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

This was the response: 

BS, 


I met (WW) during training at (military base). I was going through/ending a time in my life where I wasn't very happy. WW was very polite and caring and seemed to be having some issues herself. We hung out a few times exchanged stories and just enjoyed each others company. Nothing Physical. Yes temptation was there, but I would never do anything extreme to jeopardize that. Yes hanging out wasn't the smartest thing to do. But honestly thats all that it was. I felt uncomfortable the more we hung out knowing that it was wrong with her being married and very commited to her religion and family, as am I. I knew she had things to figure out, and I so realized I wasn't making anything better for anyone with my presence. So I removed myself from the equation in all ways I possibly could and cut contact. It has been a while since I have cut contact and I don't remember every detail from that time. I have no reason to have any sort of contact with her, and I sincerely mean that when I say I'm sorry for any trouble my actions have caused. I will honor your request. As I said prior I don't remember all details, but the concert, watching a movie, and grilling some food at my apartment is what I remember. 

Once again I apologize for the trouble BS.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Dyokemm,

I said I was going to be gone for 4 days. Lol. Chill.


----------



## re16

Did you get the 800 pages?


----------



## jlg07

@couldhavebeenworse, any updates? Did you get the 800 pages of chats? I hope you didnt wait for HER permission to do this?


----------



## RWB

*Wife had 2 (small?) EA's*

*Small EA's?* Just like being a* Little Pregnant?*


----------



## Lasvegas

I hope she did not get any reason to cheat on you. If you do not take care of your spouse then someone else will.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Lasvegas said:


> I hope she did not get any reason to cheat on you. If you do not take care of your spouse then someone else will.


is that your pat answer for everything...because obviously you haven't read any of the threads


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

It was physical no doubt about it. Your wife is not telling you the truth. I would strongly encourage you to sit her down, tell her if she wants
Any chance to save your marriage you are going to require a polygraph. Tell her she better come clean now, because if the poly indicates otherwise you are gone. Cheaters lie. Commit that to memory.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

I doubt she would ever agree to a poly.

I know the standard thinking is it went physical, but I sincerely doubt it. I think this dude would have hung around. I also don't think she would have told me about him if it had gone physical, remember, she confessed the relationship to me to avoid trickle truth based on me finding out about FB dude. What can I do? I am not willing to divorce because there was a chance it went physical, or for her refusal to take a poly. She has said over and over she made it clear to this guy he was not getting any. I believe that's why he left. Not because "he realized he wasn't doing any good." as he said in his letter. But, I fully realize I could be sadly mistaken. She believes she only directly lied to me one time through out all of this, that is, when I asked her one night if she was out with suicide boy, she said no. She was out with him and the OM. 

On another note, she is still blocking me from getting the FB messages from guy #2. Again, she says there was absolutely nothing inappropriate, such as confessed feelings or anything sexual in nature, or even any flirting. I agreed to take a vacation day from work, but now she wants me to get a hotel and read through them or she wants to leave town with the kids. I think that is ridiculous. I have not acted like an idiot at all during this process. I have called her some choice words, but have not lashed out physically in anyway, to her or walls or anything. Starting to get frustrated. 

Oh yeah, and every time we talk its all my fault.


----------



## thummper

News Flash: In her mind it will ALWAYS be "your fault."


----------



## katies

oh boy, you need to get your ***** boots on. she has a poly or you file for divorce. she unblocks your messaging or you file.
stop being a doormat.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

Never assume ANYTHING...


Always verify cheating. Cheating=lying. Period.

She is manipulating the affair, underground, under carpet.

Look up the word "blame shifting" and "gas lighting"....These apply to your situation now.

starting to look like this will be an exit affair. Make you the bad guy before she moves on...

And yes, by this much obfuscation, she IS sleeping with someone else. 

I am prior military, and I remember 3 females that were married and ended up pregnant after training... More common than you think!


----------



## badmemory

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I doubt she would ever agree to a poly.


She would if - It didn't go physical, she was remorseful about what did happen, she cared about her marriage, and understood what it's like to be in your shoes.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I doubt she would ever agree to a poly.
> 
> I know the standard thinking is it went physical, but I sincerely doubt it. I think this dude would have hung around. I also don't think she would have told me about him if it had gone physical, remember, she confessed the relationship to me to avoid trickle truth based on me finding out about FB dude. What can I do? I am not willing to divorce because there was a chance it went physical, or for her refusal to take a poly. She has said over and over she made it clear to this guy he was not getting any. I believe that's why he left. Not because "he realized he wasn't doing any good." as he said in his letter. But, I fully realize I could be sadly mistaken. She believes she only directly lied to me one time through out all of this, that is, when I asked her one night if she was out with suicide boy, she said no. She was out with him and the OM.
> 
> On another note, she is still blocking me from getting the FB messages from guy #2. Again, she says there was absolutely nothing inappropriate, such as confessed feelings or anything sexual in nature, or even any flirting. I agreed to take a vacation day from work, but now she wants me to get a hotel and read through them or she wants to leave town with the kids. I think that is ridiculous. I have not acted like an idiot at all during this process. I have called her some choice words, but have not lashed out physically in anyway, to her or walls or anything. Starting to get frustrated.
> 
> Oh yeah, and every time we talk its all my fault.


This is going to be short. She is lying about everything. She slept with the dude. At least that one. 

After her "2 small EA's" she gets no privacy or ability for you to NOT read anything. You get all access to everything. 

You are in denial, but you need to understand that you are being weak and you are being played by your wife. 

Sorry man, she is laughing at you for being so stupid...


----------



## ABHale

Sorry to disagree with you but the OM would have never pursued your wife for so long with out getting anywhere. 

Best of luck.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:

I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.

I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.

I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.

I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature. 

I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other. 

As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


----------



## Yeswecan

Sheesh... most unfeeling letter....


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

You need to grow a pair and walk away. That is the only way she is going to realize how serious this is.


----------



## Andy1001

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


That’s a long winded way of telling you to go and **** yourself.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


This letter right her would make me file for divorce, and god knows what she has actually said. 

She is gas lighting you. She has been having more than one PHYSICAL AFFAIR. 

You are just to big of a puss to pull the trigger and file for divorce. That is all you can do if you want to save your marriage. 

You are letting her walk all over you because she thinks you are stupid. She think you can never catch her and she thinks you are a weak man. 

This is not your fault, it is hers. Further, she is lying like a rug. 

Find your balls, I know she hid them somewhere, and file for divorce. 

Then you shove this letter up her butt where it belongs. 

Good grief how can you guys take this crap and still look in the mirror??? 

I will never understand...


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

Welp, let me give you the condensed version of that letter. You will subjugate yourself to me. I am glad you are hurt, but the sex was great...Get over it. The kids need you. But obviously, I don't....God is on my side.


You need to seriously think about getting out of this. This sounds so pre- planned. I also noticed no love mentioned. Time to bale. Sorry you are here.


----------



## naiveonedave

the blatant disrespect in that letter would take me straight to the best shark D lawyer within 500 miles. I could not put up with someone having an EA and then telling me how I had to deal with because she won't change and making up bs about how you will take stuff away from the kiddos if/when you read the letters. That letter is written like what you would write to someone breaking into your house, not to a BS,.


----------



## badmemory

couldhavebeenworse said:


> You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power.


Suggested response:

You know wife, you're at least right about that. I shouldn't have to tell you what remorse looks like. I should trust that if you are truly remorseful, you'll act like. Since you haven't been acting like it, as this snarky, disrespectful letter typifies, I admit I tried to help you along. My bad. Won't happen again. Either you'll demonstrate genuine remorse or you won't.


----------



## Vinnydee

I lost my fiancé of 5 years and then a girlfriend. When you put women and men together under stressful conditions far from home, things happen. It was not until I left the military that I found a wife who is still with me 46 years later. I was in Vietnam with a lot of married men. I got a Dear John letter as did many others. Some men gave their wives hall passes while they were away to save their marriage. When I got back to the States what I saw sickened me. Wives who lived on base were in great demand from the thousands of horny soldiers posted there. There was constant attention form men and the wives lived with the fact that any day they could be told that their husband died. They needed emotional support and the arms of a man. My ex fiancé called me up 35 years later to apologize. Her excuse was that she was just 18 and left on her own scared that any day she would be told that I was dead and since she was not my wife, she would have nothing. She even kept all the letters and pictures I sent her from Nam. I was in her heart all that time and it bothered her that she cheated on me. Especially since her life did not go well after we broke up. Drugs, mental illness and an unplanned child by one of the guys she had sex with while stoned.

It takes special people to make military marriages work, and they certainly can work. I live among many retired military who have been married even longer than me. It can work with the right partner. However with someone who is seems to seek men to fill her needs, physical or not, I do not know. My life lessons showed me that no matter how much you trust someone or how much they love you, when emotions kick in we humans tend to make bad choices. If I was you I would ask your wife why she seeks out only men EA if emotional support is all she needs? Unfortunately I have seen first hand what goes on in the military when you mix a lot of men and fewer women.


----------



## Amplexor

BluesPower said:


> You are just to big of a puss to pull the trigger and file for divorce. That is all you can do if you want to save your marriage.
> 
> Find your balls, I know she hid them somewhere.


*Mod Warning*

There is a fine line between giving someone a dose of reality and abuse of another when they're down. This crosses it. Please refer to the forum rules for further information.


----------



## Nrecnocymton

I'd do some minor editing of your letter to this:

I am GLAD that you are hurt. I don't care how you read the messages. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. 

I have no interest.


----------



## re16

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


Yikes. You really need to get the messages. You know they are going to be terrible just from her posturing.

I wouldn't move forward with anything with her until you have them.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

I sent the dude a message and told him to send them on over. Cant wait around forever.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

thanks amplexor!

You guys can be honest as long as you obey the rules. Trust me, you aren't going to hurt my feelings.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I sent the dude a message and told him to send them on over. Cant wait around forever.





couldhavebeenworse said:


> thanks amplexor!
> 
> You guys can be honest as long as you obey the rules. Trust me, you aren't going to hurt my feelings.


So I don't want to cross any line, you can read. 

Tell me this please...

What makes you think you will get all of the messages? What make you think the worst one are not edited? 

What make you think you can trust anyone in this deal?


----------



## GusPolinski

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


Wow. That’s a lot of bull****.

Zero remorse, though.


----------



## OutofRetirement

My opinion is that she thinks she is the boss. A beneficent ruler of the roost. She let's you blather on usually, but now she must pull rank and put her foot down. Enough is enough, she's done all she will do, like it or lump it.

I always find the power struggle, the negotiation, fascinating. So, so often, the wrongdoer, the cheater, prevails and gets their way.

For example, if you told her "take a polygraph or else," she would say, "or else." She'd leave the marriage over it. You wouldn't. So she wins on that one. Push come to shove, she knows where you stand and she knows where you stand.

Do your kids ever say, "too bad, so sad"?
Like it or lump it.

The most frustrating part of her letter to me was when she was scolding to you on your parenting. And your immaturity. Like her cheating is the epitome of maturity and fantastic parenting. 

In the US military, is there any kind of equipment to get people to extricate their cranial projectile from their anal cavity?


----------



## [email protected]

Good God! It looks like she is still controlling you. Or you are letting it happen.


----------



## As'laDain

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


i would file for divorce based on this. its pretty obvious that she really does not care how you feel and expects you to do things exactly as she wants, with no regard for how YOU perceive things. she was even posturing in this letter to get you to second guess your own perceptions when you start reading those FB messages.


----------



## Lostinthought61

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


way for her to blame you and control the relationship...you should tell her that works both ways. you should tell her that you have a right to investigate anyone who impacts your marriage...and she has to accept the fact that trust is earned and not expected. 

she is a real piece of work.


----------



## Townes

I just see the letter as her saying, "I've done all I'm willing to do about this situation. Now if you're not going to actually do anything about this (like divorce) then get over it and move on." In a way she's right. If there's not going to be any actual accountability, then what's the point of going round and round about it? You know where she stands at this point. You might as well just fast forward to the point where you pretend nothing ever happened.


----------



## Malaise

couldhavebeenworse said:


> You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do
> 
> I'll do as I like.
> 
> .I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer.
> 
> It will take an act of God
> 
> If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.
> 
> I don't want to defend things I've said that appear sketchy.


----------



## Dyokemm

Wow.....

That is one of the most unremorseful WW statements anyone has ever posted here in all the years I have been a member.

OP.....

The plot holes in your WW’s story about Gomer Pyle (military OM) were already Red Flags......

But the arrogance, defiance, and lack of respect in this message/tirade really makes me think there is a lot more info to what has happened.

IMO.....she is angry that you will not quietly rugsweep her behavior as she wishes.

I think she is so arrogant about these FB messages because she knows there is nothing incriminating with THIS guy.....based on what you first shared, I thought this FB guy was always sort of a ‘nothing burger’ as far as an A went......about the most use these messages MIGHT give you is if she was using this FB guy as a friend/confidant and has forgotten about any messages/conversations she might have had with FB dude about Gomer Pyle (who she admits she was attracted to, spent time alone in his apartment, and was angered that he eventually blew her off).....your WW was obviously friends with him (800 messages), but if they were really close maybe she mentioned something about Gomer that she has not told you because she doesn’t want you to know.

Review the messages for sure......but still think your main focus needs to be on accounting for the holes in her story about the guy she actually ‘wanted’ and had face to face alone time with.


----------



## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.


Your wife is saying that she was right to lie to you by deliberate omission concerning her inappropriate relationship with other men that were openly trying to sleep with her during their dates, because she feels that you do not handle such things in a "reasonable manner" as she is the only one that is "rational and mature". Thus you being upset with her for dating other men while married to you does not concern her, and you need to get over it now or "you need to be away from the kids". 

Her spin and excuses aside, since they were pursuing her for sex, and she knew that they wanted to be more than just friends when they asked her out, her going out alone with them to movies, dinner, bars, and their home was by definition dating. Her claiming that she did not sleep with them does not change that fact, as most dates do not result in sex. Also, it is not rational for her to expect you to take her at her word that nothing happened on those dates, since she has already admitted that she feels that she has the right to lie to you if she thinks that you will not handle things by her definition in a reasonable manner.


----------



## MAJDEATH

Sounds like perhaps your W ran into an Air Force reserve PUA (pick-up artist). They are very good at determining in a very quick way whether a target has potential (looking for subtle indicators of interest) and then pursuing/escalating to get to the desired outcome. Here is a real world example: 



. What should trouble you is that she falls into the category of being available/susceptible. You want your W to be in the majority group of women who say "piss-off jerk" within 10 seconds of meeting Mr. player. Maybe a nicer way of saying it is "not interested, go away". Maybe she does not enforce marital boundaries, because of the status of your troubled marriage and her willingness to explore other options. Maybe because of her education and training in counseling, she thinks she can complete with a professional PUA. If he is good he can bypass any resistance, even with married targets. Or maybe she wants to know she still can still attract a guy.

Who knows if he hit a homerun or simply got to second base. The good news is guys like this usually move on after:
(1) they get what they wanted
(2) the target becomes difficult or unobtainable

Hopefully she is telling the truth and it was number 2. Of course you have some remedies based on military service. You can talk to her CO and ask him to tell her to knock it off, or suffer the repercussions to her career. Especially if she is an officer and the guys are enlisted (it's called fraternization). And consider making friends with someone in the Wing who can report on what's happening. Word gets around, trust me, I know.


----------



## Windwalker

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


So on top of being a Jesus cheater, she's also the most unremorseful cheater on the planet.

She just told you to straight **** off and she will change when she's damned good and ready.

If it was me, I would file so fast it made her head spin and have both their scalps by the way of military justice. This being needs a legal curb stomp to the throat. To question your parenting after what she has done takes a real cold person.

Not often I want to see a BS figuratively destroy their wayward, but after that letter, i can think of no one more deserving.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Yeah, haven't talk to her since that letter. Well, I gave her my reply.

I think I said on here yesterday that I sent FB friend a message, cc'd to wife, to send the messages. Of course, I got no response. The first time I asked him he said sure, (a month or two ago), then he balked and would only do it if my wife was ok with it. We did a group text and she told him she was ok with it but wanted to talk to our counselor first, then she wanted further delay as we were headed out of town. (My AT, I am military as well). Then she delayed when we got back saying I needed a plan. Now I am worried FB dude is balking again. I checked our Verizon account to make sure she hadn't called or texted him saying to not send it. She didn't. I have access to all of her social media as well, not contact with him. 

Dr. fone recovers FB texts, correct?


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

You guys are very right on her remorse. There is like none. 

That is the hardest part for me, a total lack of remorse and blame shifting. 

Of course, if she is being honest, there really isn't THAT great of a deal to be remorseful for. She had a FB friend she messaged with, but had no attraction towards him and nothing inappropriate was ever said. She went out a few times with a guy, feeling sorry for him, but also acknowledging she was attracted to him. Surely wrong, but she claims she made it clear he would never get anywhere with her, and he never took any steps to go physical. Just a few comments and a few dumb texts asking to make out. She says she never felt uncomfortable that he would try something, although she admits how utterly naïve she was being.


----------



## naiveonedave

stop believing anything she says that minimizes potential affairs. She is gas lighting and trickle trothing you. Sure, use phone recovery software, if it will do any good.

At this point, you may as well get D papers drawn up, then threaten to D if you don't get to see the FB messages. If she balks or puts conditions on when, where you get to see them, take off your ring and give her the ring and the D papers. You have literally nothing to lose at this point. Your M is gone if she doesn't start to capitulate to your needs and wants.


----------



## badmemory

couldhavebeenworse said:


> You guys are very right on her remorse. There is like none.
> 
> That is the hardest part for me, a total lack of remorse and blame shifting.
> 
> Of course, if she is being honest,* there really isn't THAT great of a deal to be remorseful for*.


That, has yet to be determined. Her stonewalling and disrespect can't be tolerated. If you can't make her understand that, you need to see an attorney and start the divorce process. Who knows; that might get her attention.


----------



## dadstartingover

couldhavebeenworse said:


> You guys are very right on her remorse. There is like none.
> 
> That is the hardest part for me, a total lack of remorse and blame shifting.
> 
> Of course, if she is being honest, there really isn't THAT great of a deal to be remorseful for. She had a FB friend she messaged with, but had no attraction towards him and nothing inappropriate was ever said. She went out a few times with a guy, feeling sorry for him, but also acknowledging she was attracted to him. Surely wrong, but she claims she made it clear he would never get anywhere with her, and he never took any steps to go physical. Just a few comments and a few dumb texts asking to make out. She says she never felt uncomfortable that he would try something, although she admits how utterly naïve she was being.


Dude. Stop. This is beyond sad. 
My wife wouldn't do that. | Dad Starting Over


----------



## MAJDEATH

The frustrating part of having a W that strayed, is that you are 100% reliant on her version of the truth to understand what happened. That is why talking to others involved and/or reading communications can paint a clearer picture (and also verify what she says is true or not).
Perceptions and influences matter too. As a career mom to 5 kids, she probably doesn't get a lot of adult time. So when she is at training or drill, she really savors that time with other adults. But perceptions matter too. If I was sitting close to her and AP at the bar, what would it look like to me? She may tell you it was innocent but as a man I might notice her body language as being very interested (like touching her hair or wrists constantly). Her behavior should match her marital status, even to a casual observer. Just being in a bar with a man who is not her husband or a male family member raises caution bells.


----------



## dadstartingover

MAJDEATH said:


> Sounds like perhaps your W ran into an Air Force reserve PUA (pick-up artist).


Yes, the poor woman ran into a man who has the gift of gab. *GASP* That poor, defenseless creature. She was no match for that evil man. We must keep her away from such men. All of them. The millions of them that want her. 

*Stop Blaming The "Other Man" | Dad Starting Over*


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I doubt she would ever agree to a poly.
> 
> I know the standard thinking is it went physical, but I sincerely doubt it. I think this dude would have hung around. I also don't think she would have told me about him if it had gone physical, remember, she confessed the relationship to me to avoid trickle truth based on me finding out about FB dude. What can I do? I am not willing to divorce because there was a chance it went physical, or for her refusal to take a poly. She has said over and over she made it clear to this guy he was not getting any. I believe that's why he left. Not because "he realized he wasn't doing any good." as he said in his letter. But, I fully realize I could be sadly mistaken. She believes she only directly lied to me one time through out all of this, that is, when I asked her one night if she was out with suicide boy, she said no. She was out with him and the OM.
> 
> On another note, she is still blocking me from getting the FB messages from guy #2. Again, she says there was absolutely nothing inappropriate, such as confessed feelings or anything sexual in nature, or even any flirting. I agreed to take a vacation day from work, but now she wants me to get a hotel and read through them or she wants to leave town with the kids. I think that is ridiculous. I have not acted like an idiot at all during this process. I have called her some choice words, but have not lashed out physically in anyway, to her or walls or anything. Starting to get frustrated.
> 
> Oh yeah, and every time we talk its all my fault.


If you are not willing to divorce and she is not willing to give you access then she can basically do whatever she wants. She has all the power in your relationship. Eventually if you are not a broken person you will get tired of being bullied and taken advantage of. And that is what she is doing. Her letter spoke to you like you were a child in a way, and he actions show that is how she sees you. She has all the power and you have to accept it. Your wife is an abusive terrible wife. You could do much better but you have to want to. Good luck, it's not going to be easy. 

She probably knows the messages will be a deal breaker. If you do read them get ready.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> This is what she just wrote, in reference to getting the FB messages:
> 
> I understand that you are hurt. I am GLAD that you are hurt. It shows me that you care. I am sorry that I hurt you. Very sorry. I hope that someday you will forgive me.
> 
> I don't care how you read the messages. I do not feel a need to be there for it. That's your decision.
> 
> I care how you handle what you read. I am not confident that you will handle this in a reasonable manner. And me being right will not mean anything other than another disaster to deal with. I do not want our children subjected to more of being ignored and forced to take care of themselves. (Me: we would go into the room and close the door to discuss things) That is all I have been trying to say this whole time.
> 
> I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that I am out of line by saying that I think you need to be away from the kids to do this. That's not controlling. That is being rational and mature.
> 
> I also do not think that is beneficial for either of us for you to keep "researching" why or how I messed up. I think that has long since been made clear and I do not find it helpful. You cannot change me. You also cannot keep telling me what I need to do. I do not need 700 articles that say women and men should not be friends. That has never been questioned. If you are struggling with this, you can research it for your own self. You can tell me things you request of me, things that would build trust, etc. But you can only work on you. You telling me what I should have done etc does nothing but further divide us. I will only change when I decide I want to change and under my own power. It doesn't work any other way for any human on Earth. The only way you could possibly change me is through prayer. What you have been doing is exactly what every book and speaker have cautioned not to- highlighting the parts that you think are applicable to your spouse, but forgetting that plank in your eye. It is not helpful to either or us, or our relationship with each other.
> 
> As for discussing, Idk what you are planning to discuss that you think will be BENEFICIAL and can be done in a loving manner. If you plan to read this, say okay overall this is exactly what you said it was. I see some things I would rather not but no, you were not flirting or having a relationship that was sexual in any way with this guy. So I got my answers. I dont' like reading all this and I don't think it was appropriate, so I ask that you refrain from doing it again. That is reasonable. If you plan to read it and tell me everything I said that you find out of line or everything you think FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW is untrue; or If you plan to ask me to explain completely innocuous statements because you are LOOKING for something that wasn't going on, I have no interest.


Just divorce this narcissist. I suspect this is the way she has always been. Dude being alone would be better. In all her letters she seems almost incapable of empathy. It's gross.

Oh and tell her you will pray that God would provide you justice. Psalm 7


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> You guys are very right on her remorse. There is like none.
> 
> That is the hardest part for me, a total lack of remorse and blame shifting.
> 
> Of course, if she is being honest, there really isn't THAT great of a deal to be remorseful for. She had a FB friend she messaged with, but had no attraction towards him and nothing inappropriate was ever said. She went out a few times with a guy, feeling sorry for him, but also acknowledging she was attracted to him. Surely wrong, but she claims she made it clear he would never get anywhere with her, and he never took any steps to go physical. Just a few comments and a few dumb texts asking to make out. She says she never felt uncomfortable that he would try something, although she admits how utterly naïve she was being.


Common man if that was true she would just let you see the FB messages. You are afraid, I get it, but like the school yard bully you have to fight back or you are going to be bullied the rest of your life. Have courage, nothing good in life comes without risk, do you really want to be the guy whose wife cheated on him and then told him to pray about it? Your wife is not indispensable. She treats you like her property. It's up to you but it's not going to get better if you allow her to treat you like this. Maybe the post will not be about love but more about how awful you are and how much she wishes she wasn't with you. 

I suspect she has been treating you like this for years. No one is this confident if the dynamic hasn't been established. You probably have no idea how much you have settled in your life of how good life could be if you found someone decent. This is not the basis for a good marriage and a happy life.

Honestly at this point I am not sure why you need the messages. Do you think this women loves you? Is that the way you would treat someone you love? Why are you with her exactly? What does she provide except metaphorically spitting in your face and then telling you it's unreasonable for you to get upset about it? Maybe it's just time to call it. You can co-parent and find someone who actually treats you with respect. Just common respect of a fellow human being. Every decision she has made since you started posting on here has been made with her benefit, yours isn't even considered. Even confessing seem to be out of guilt but there doesn't seem to be understanding about what she did to you or how YOU are feeling, what you lost. This is actually very common to cheaters, they have no ability to see anything other then their own point of view. It's "I feel inconvenient nagging guilt and I want it go to away, I am a good person so as soon as I confess I can go back to feeling good about myself", not "I can't believe I did this to someone I was supposed to protect, he deserves better so I have to tell him". That is a subtle difference but just shows how messed up they are, that is why they generally suck as spouses. And this women is going to be going away for months at a time. You need to have a very strong level of trust and communication, this is a women who struggles with just the basics of being open in a normal way as a spouse. Right now you are like her kid to her. Life's too short dude, you only get one.

If it was me my response would be. You know what you're right, I don't need to see the messages, lets just call it. I now know enough to know who you are and I can do better. I just don't care anymore. I will be getting in touch with my lawyer.


----------



## BigDigg

So if I read all this straight your wife admitted to having a crush on a guy(s) and basically going on dates with them while out of town. These dates included alcohol and private alone time at a residence/hotel. She may or may not have done anything physical, however she wasn't straight with you at any point in this, trickle truthed, and instead of being fully transparent is acting like a lawyer and parceling out details with conditions attached and omissions. 

If this was all fully innocent or just naive behavior surely she would see how this situation and lack of boundaries would be concerning to you and feel some level of remorse. She would actively work with you to shine light on this and earn your trust. But she's not doing any of that. Instead she has shown clear lack of respect for you and your marriage. She treats you with utter contempt and disdain. Her seething anger and annoyance in the letter under these conditions is unlike anything I've heard.

At this point this marriage looks doomed whether she ultimately cheated or not. I wouldn't want to stay one more day with someone like this.


----------



## re16

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Yeah, haven't talk to her since that letter. Well, I gave her my reply.
> 
> Dr. fone recovers FB texts, correct?


Yes it can. 

If you can't recover them, why don't you say "I need all the messages you've had with this guy or I'm walking away" then start looking at apartment listings.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

I actually just texted him again. He said he was out of town and would be back Sunday. Will forward them to me then.

By the way, these 800 pages are only part of the whole conversation. Here is explanation:

I asked for the messages for the period covering the time she was dating the other guy, and for recent. He said "All I can say is I hope you like reading. 827 pages. From Feb 2016 to Sep 16 was 65 pages. We didn't talk between 2/2016 and 7/2016. We starting talking most in July 2016 (Me: that is right during the dating of the OM) and did until this past January (Me: that is when I found the fb messages). It would have been too much to get everything so I did 7/20/17 to present as well. So its done when your ready."

He sent that on March 12. I have been waiting patiently since. 

Wife said they had been talking off and on for 5 years, but it only became frequent and personal "about a year ago." she is a little off on that, but I suspect its pretty accurate.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

But aside from all of this, I just don't know what to do. 

She had suggested I do individual counseling since the marriage counseling hasn't really done much for us yet. She was hoping to discuss more of the marriage stuff, while I obviously want to discuss why she was dating another man. 

I have thought about leaving for a bit, but I cannot do that to our children. I think I would rather die. We have 5, and 3 of them are still pretty young. 9,8,5. 

Sometimes I'm like "big whoop." She went out a few times with someone and nothing happened, she confessed it, and said she was wrong, but was just trying to help someone in need. And as for the FB guy, she says there never was any attraction, she just talked to him like one of her GFs. 

If that is all true, yes its a betrayal, but it really isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, and many people would probably even say nothing is wrong with it.

However, I get bummed because of the blame shifting. I get bummed because this dude made sexual comments and she didn't immediately end it. I get bummed because she knows not to confide in men, and got mad I had a few texts to a mutual friend, all of which were about when to pick up the kids from spending the night! 0 conversation whatsoever! Man does she get mad when I throw out the hypocrite word.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

some other things you should know:

We don't use any form of contraception, per Catholic moral teaching. Not that that would stop someone from cheating. I mean, you're already gravely sinning.

My wife doesn't wear anything she thinks would attract the attention of other men. Including ever wearing pants in public, unless her backside is covered. 

She doesn't read romance novels because she thinks they are akin to porn for women.

If we are watching a movie, and the actor is attractive, she turns her eyes during close ups.

She tells me if she finds a guy attractive. She swears she initially told me about the guy on OJT when she was first introduced to him. 

But, when I think about all of this, it makes it all the more surprising she would go out with a guy, or message with a guy constantly. I get we all make mistakes, but I question now what she really, truly believes.

She also said she never got dressed up for this dude, or changed anything about her appearance. She says that would have sent up red flags to her that she was going to far over the line.


----------



## dadstartingover

couldhavebeenworse said:


> But aside from all of this, I just don't know what to do.


Yes you do. The problem is it's the hardest decision you'll ever have to make.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I have thought about leaving for a bit, but I cannot do that to our children. I think I would rather die. We have 5, and 3 of them are still pretty young. 9,8,5.


Yep, she's got you by the cajones and she knows it. Just wait... she'll make the decision for you eventually. She won't have the same concerns for your family. Actually, she's already made the decision with her actions. She's waiting for you to play the bad guy. Keep waiting like you are and it will blow up to a gigantic mess you can't even conceive of right now. Like my friend who caught his wife banging the married mutual friend. That was her way of saying "Can we divorce now, please?!" But... he forgave her. Wanted to work on it. Went to marriage counseling...alone. Got on the discussion forums asking for help. Then his daughter's boyfriend texted "Why is your mom sexting with my dad??" Yep... she went and did it again. Banged her daughter's boyfriend's married dad. "He understands me" she said. 

My friend finally took the hint. He's never been better. Looks great. Better job. Awesome girlfriend. Kids are doing great. It took years, but he made it.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I get bummed because she knows not to confide in men, and got mad I had a few texts to a mutual friend, all of which were about when to pick up the kids from spending the night! 0 conversation whatsoever! Man does she get mad when I throw out the hypocrite word.


She's projecting. Cheating woman 101.


----------



## Noble1

Sorry to hear about situation which is growing worse.

If you can, take a step back and try to look at things from 50,000 above you.

For us, which are removed from your immediate pain and suffering, you are making excuses for your 'wife' and her actions.

You are minimizing the impact and damage of what she has done to you and your relationship/marriage.

Yes, some of the comments directed towards you are direct and maybe even hurtful, but know that everyone is trying to help you out in their own way.

Until you can admin the extent of the damage done by your wife, you will never really be in a place to take the action you need to save yourself.


Unfortunately, you will come to understand (I hope) that your wife is not really all that special. Yes she was at one point and she could be again, but until she takes full responsibility for her actions and they were deliberate actions - and you allow her too take that responsibility and free yourself from making excuses for her - things will never get better for you.

Good luck.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Your ambivalence about her obvious disdain for you is hard to comprehend.

Christians like her are one of the primary reasons I'm atheist.


----------



## re16

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I actually just texted him again. He said he was out of town and would be back Sunday. Will forward them to me then.


This is good. Is he communicating with your wife directly still? Will she try to stop it from happening?

I would run Dr. Fone anyway, just to see what it finds.


----------



## Yeswecan

couldhavebeenworse said:


> You guys are very right on her remorse. There is like none.
> 
> That is the hardest part for me, a total lack of remorse and blame shifting.
> 
> Of course, if she is being honest, there really isn't THAT great of a deal to be remorseful for. She had a FB friend she messaged with, but had no attraction towards him and nothing inappropriate was ever said. She went out a few times with a guy, feeling sorry for him, but also acknowledging she was attracted to him. Surely wrong, but she claims she made it clear he would never get anywhere with her, and he never took any steps to go physical. Just a few comments and a few dumb texts asking to make out. She says she never felt uncomfortable that he would try something, although she admits how utterly naïve she was being.


Your W is dating.


----------



## Chaparral

She has all these self made rules but she dates other men. The sheer number of texts defines a deep emotional affair. 

Your wife is either just a common cheating liar or she is delusional. You pick. What does your pastor say?

She’s tired of your attempts to explain your position regarding her affairs by showing her reading materials.

Two questions. Did she read NOT JUST FRIENDS?

Does she admit she had emotional affairs and was actively dating other men?

I would ask her to take a poly simply to see if she is willing to prove it.


----------



## BigDigg

I need to stop reading this forum. These stories are just so sad. I can't imagine living in a life where a person has so devalued their own worth that they'll accept any condition to stay married. Certainly divorce isn't optimal for children, but then neither is growing up in a dysfunctional unloving bitter household. Just remember that you and your wife are always teaching your children through your actions. What lessons will they learn?


----------



## Yeswecan

couldhavebeenworse said:


> per Catholic moral teaching. Not that that would stop someone from cheating.


Does part of the moral teaching include dating OM while married?


----------



## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> That is the hardest part for me, a total lack of remorse and blame shifting.
> 
> Of course, if she is being honest, there really isn't THAT great of a deal to be remorseful for. She had a FB friend she messaged with, but had no attraction towards him and nothing inappropriate was ever said. She went out a few times with a guy, feeling sorry for him, but also acknowledging she was attracted to him. Surely wrong, but she claims she made it clear he would never get anywhere with her, and he never took any steps to go physical. Just a few comments and a few dumb texts asking to make out.


You start off by saying "if she is being honest". That is a big if because she has not been honest with you for a very long time, such that her being OK with being dishonest with you has become an established part of her relationship with you. She has even rationalized being dishonest with you about her inappropriate relationship with her other man that openly wanted to sleep her, by basically saying that you are not reasonable. Since she is still saying that you are not reasonable, in her mind she is still justified in lying to you without remorse. Thus it is completely irrational for you to believe that she is being honest with you now. 

Let us be clear, she dated a man that wanted to sleep with her, and that she found attractive. Even if she was saying that she was married, action speaks louder than words, and her actions were not the actions of a faithful married woman. If you read other threads in the Infidelity section you will see that many cheaters do exactly what your wife is doing now. She spins a story that minimizes what she has done, and does not answer questions that you need answered in determining her ability to be faithful to you going forward. By being angry at you for not wanting to rug sweep, she is trying to bully you into moving forward on her terms, where she does not have to show any remorse. This is called false reconciliation, and this rarely works out in the long run. If you read other threads this often leads to people later posting back that they should have listened to us about not being bullied and working for true reconciliation.


----------



## jlg07

Cheating isn't Catholic either. 

Also, 800+ pages for 8 MONTHS! That's a lot more than just talking about cars man -- I REALLY don't think you know your wife at all.


----------



## MyRevelation

A couple of things to consider about human behavior. 

It's really easy to lie to someone that WANTS to believe what they're being told.

... and the old saying that ends "and you can fool some of the people ALL of the time", which goes back to the first point.

chbw, REALLY, REALLY wants to believe his WW, which makes it very easy for her to lie to him, and it will continue until such a time as he is tired to LYING TO HIMSELF. Once, if ever, he gets his head around the concept that he has been deceiving himself into believing his WW's lies, then he may be able to take actions to help himself. Until then, he will continue to be her doormat and all the advice in the world will have been wasted, until he is ready to HEAR it.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

lol. I don't think there is a catholic teaching on having 1 v 1 time with the opposite sex. 

She continues to say it wasn't dating, anyway. 

They were just hanging out. There was no romance. There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship.

To her the purpose of dating is to discern marriage, to develop a lasting relationship. 

To me, dating is going out with someone you are attracted to and is attracted to you, in order to spend time together and have fun. Regardless of the eventual outcome. 

I think she is delusional in that respect. 

I just don't get it man. She is so honorable in almost every other area of her life. She knows she cannot blame shift this. She knows she needs to be open and supportive. She knows she needs to show remorse and sympathy. She just isn't hitting the mark.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Or, it could be just that she is telling the truth. There IS that possibility. Lol.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

And it think given everything, that is most likely.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

We'll see what the FB messages say.

I'll catch up with you all Monday.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> lol. I don't think there is a catholic teaching on having 1 v 1 time with the opposite sex.
> 
> She continues to say it wasn't dating, anyway.
> 
> They were just hanging out. There was no romance. There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship.
> 
> To her the purpose of dating is to discern marriage, to develop a lasting relationship.
> 
> To me, dating is going out with someone you are attracted to and is attracted to you, in order to spend time together and have fun. Regardless of the eventual outcome.
> 
> I think she is delusional in that respect.
> 
> I just don't get it man. She is so honorable in almost every other area of her life. She knows she cannot blame shift this. She knows she needs to be open and supportive. She knows she needs to show remorse and sympathy. She just isn't hitting the mark.





couldhavebeenworse said:


> Or, it could be just that she is telling the truth. There IS that possibility. Lol.





couldhavebeenworse said:


> And it think given everything, that is most likely.


I am not sure that anything you see on the messages will do anything but confirm what she is saying, but not because she is telling the truth. It will be because she has cleansed them. 

I hope against all hope that you find the courage to make her take a poly or divorce her. Those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. 

You are being completely naïve about all of this. 

If you ever find that courage to polygraph her, you will find that she has slept with a variety of men. Once you find that out, you really need to DNA test your kids. Yes I know they all look like you, right. 

I truly hope that when you find out the truth, that you keep yourself together and divorce her. She treats you like dirt, you are too frightened of her to hold her accountable. 

Once, if ever, you get away from her, you will realize how totally weak you have been with her, and how you have been mistreated by her your entire marriage. 

I just wish you good luck, you are going to need it...


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

You're never going to get to see those FB messages. At least not all of them. I bet if you run faster on this hamster wheel everything will turn out just peachy.


----------



## Taxman

From what I am reading this is a over-controlled personality. Therefore, there are certain borderline behaviors that are not specifically barred by the church, which gives her latitude without borders. She really does not get that her conversations with other men hurt you. Her letter as much as says this. This is cheating. She has difficulty acknowledging that what she is doing is a cheat. Therefore, it is incumbent on you to make sure she knows. I suggest that she be asked to leave your home. NOTHING wakes up a cheater, even one who is convinced that they are innocent, or one that believes the cheating is to their benefit. That, and a veiled threat that these conversations which you will be in receipt of in the next few days could fall into the hands of people to which she would be embarrassed to know of her actions. Some may find it humiliating, but unfortunately, this takes on the aura of a war.


----------



## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Or, it could be just that she is telling the truth. There IS that possibility. Lol.


 Even if she is telling the truth and there was no sex, what she did would still be called a textbook emotional affair ("EA"), and an emotional affair is still cheating. 

Cheaters play word games like your wife is doing with the definition of dating. Bill Clinton angrily said that he "did not have sex with that woman", because as a cheater playing word games he says that he does not consider oral sex to be sex, and asserts that only he gets to define what words mean; regardless of his definition of sex, it ultimately did not change the fact that everyone considers what he did to be cheating. This is what your wife is doing with her definition of dating. Your definition of dating is the standard definition of dating. Your wife's definition of dating is a dishonest self serving one that does not match the reality that many people on dating sites even say that they are not looking for a long term commitment. You have every right to hold her to your mainstream definition of dating because she cannot honestly argue that her definition is the only definition used for dating. Thus you can tell her that in your legitimate view she dated another man behind your back, and that you consider it cheating. If she is not willing to admit that what she did was cheating, then she is reserving the right to cheat again, and next time the other man may be better at taking it physical (assuming you believe her).

The bottom line is that it does not matter if it was physical this time or not. What matters is that she dated another man behind your back and gave him opportunity at developing a relationship with her that could have resulted in the end of your marriage. When the two of you said "I do", the competition for her affection was suppose to be over. That is why married people are not supposed to do what she did.


----------



## Andy1001

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Or, it could be just that she is telling the truth. There IS that possibility. Lol.


There is another thread on tam at the moment and it is very similar to your situation in some ways.There is a married woman who travels for work and she has confessed to cheating on her husband,she initially said it happened once but now has admitted further inappropriate behavior occurred on other occasions.She only confessed because she thought she had caught an std.
I brought up the subject of compartmentalism.
This is what your wife is doing in my opinion.At home she is this religious woman who doesn’t read romance novels because she considers them porn and won’t look at an attractive actor on tv because it is disrespectful to you.
When she gets away from you and the children it is like a switch is turned on,she becomes flirtatious and gives off signals that she is available,and she is dating this man no matter what she says.
I traveled constantly from when I was eighteen years old and this is a situation I have seen on countless occasions.A woman gets away from home and all bets are off,wedding and engagement rings are left in the hotel room and the sex they will provide is off the charts.Hubby waiting at home would never believe this was his wife even if he seen video evidence.I have over the years been approached in hotel bars and asked did I want to ****,no niceties, just an offer of sex.
You have been given advice from very knowledgeable people on this forum but you are unwilling to take it,this is your prerogative of course.But hear this,your wife has cheated on you and you are contemplating rugsweeping it.
That is a mistake and will destroy you.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

Matthew 6:24

Cannot serve 2 masters.

You are now relegated into the beta home body. She wants external flings for her "other side" outside of her faith obviously. But she will continue to look upon her faith for you to be drawn like a moth to a flame. You are going to be fired from husband job soon. Sorry it has to said.


----------



## Chaparral

Your wife said it was wrong and she apologized for it. Then she says it isn’t dating. So what the hell was she apologizing for?

I’m not going to waste my time looking up dating, blind dating or any other. But you should and send it in a text. Telling me she is tired of you giving her things to read in order to help you get past her cheating is beyond the pale and not Christian at all.

HAVE YOU TALKED TO YOUR PRIEST? Did she confess everything to her priest? What was her penance? 

I’m ambivalent on her physically cheating. If my wife told me she went to a movie, a bar, his house to Netflix, chill or dancing, or texted a man regularly much less 800+ times and I would divorce her on the spot. Those are dates. Altogether, that's an affair no matter how you parse it.

Did you google Netflix and chill on urbandictionary.com and send her the definition.


----------



## TRy

Chaparral said:


> Did you google Netflix and chill on urbandictionary.com and send her the definition.


 In asking young people what "Netflix and chill" meant to them, I was stunned that they all knew that it meant going over to their house to get romantic. Some told me that the Netflix is optional and that going over to watch a movie alone with them at their house pretty much meant the same thing. What they are saying by this, is that doing such a thing with a member of the opposite sex is assumed to be non-platonic. I would double that assumption if they have already told you that they want to have sex with you.


----------



## Chaparral

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=netflix and chill

Ask your wife if asked her to come over for some netflix and chill. I hope you are watching for tells when you talk to her. Have you looked up the body language tells of lying, attraction and repulsion? Does she cross her arms when she's around you?


----------



## Malaise

couldhavebeenworse said:


> lol. I don't think there is a catholic teaching on having 1 v 1 time with the opposite sex.
> 
> She continues to say it wasn't dating, anyway.
> 
> They were just hanging out. There was no romance. There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship.
> 
> To her the purpose of dating is to discern marriage, to develop a lasting relationship.
> 
> To me, dating is going out with someone you are attracted to and is attracted to you, in order to spend time together and have fun. Regardless of the eventual outcome.
> 
> I think she is delusional in that respect.
> 
> I just don't get it man. She is so honorable in almost every other area of her life. *She knows she cannot blame shift this. She knows she needs to be open and supportive. She knows she needs to show remorse and sympathy. She just isn't hitting the mark*.


And she won't unless she has fear of consequences.


----------



## Chaparral

Ralph Bellamy said:


> You're never going to get to see those FB messages. At least not all of them. I bet if you run faster on this hamster wheel everything will turn out just peachy.


Didn't you have the phone company records of texts that you can match up to what he sends you.

Your attorney can also get a subpoena and get them directly from the companies involved.


----------



## OutofRetirement

couldhavebeenworse said:


> She continues to say it wasn't dating, anyway.
> 
> They were just hanging out. There was no romance. There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship.
> 
> To her the purpose of dating is to discern marriage, to develop a lasting relationship


How convenient for her, "dating" is only if you want to "discern marriage." So if you go to a movie and make out, that's not dating, because it's not to "discern marriage."

I've seen a number of cheaters who were "technical truth-tellers." So, according to HER definition, there's not too many things that would be considered "dating."

Catholic or any other religion - Temptation exists. People do things against their values out of temporary weakness.

Your wife is a technical truth-teller. She said she'd get you the FB messages. Then she delayed for this. Then she delayed for that. Then she never followed up to the other dude to get the FB messages to you. So, TECHNICALLY, she's still saying she'll get you the FB messages, but for all practical purposes, her claim she'd get the FB messages is a lie, she's breaking her word.

But you know, it's starting to sound like more than a frickin game than your life and your family's life. Semantics. Game-playing, I think.

Just in case you haven't dealt with game-players before, the way you get past it is, you stop playing. But your wife is willing to divorce over the messages, and you're not. So guess who wins that "game"?


----------



## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> They were just hanging out. There was no romance. There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship.


 When your wife states that she did nothing seriously wrong because "There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship", tell her that the other man's repeated stated intent to try to have sex with her makes this statement factually untrue on its face.


----------



## MAJDEATH

dadstartingover said:


> Yes, the poor woman ran into a man who has the gift of gab. *GASP* That poor, defenseless creature. She was no match for that evil man. We must keep her away from such men. All of them. The millions of them that want her.
> 
> *Stop Blaming The "Other Man" | Dad Starting Over*


Apparently you didn't read the rest of the post. PUAs only target those that are willing. They don't waste their time if it won't lead to something. I was actually reinforcing your point that she was responsible for choosing her actions and the position she ended up in (no pun intended).


----------



## ABHale

couldhavebeenworse said:


> We'll see what the FB messages say.
> 
> I'll catch up with you all Monday.


Enjoy the weekend with the kiddos.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> lol. I don't think there is a catholic teaching on having 1 v 1 time with the opposite sex.
> 
> She continues to say it wasn't dating, anyway.
> 
> They were just hanging out. There was no romance. There was no intent to carry on a relationship beyond friendship.
> 
> To her the purpose of dating is to discern marriage, to develop a lasting relationship.
> 
> To me, dating is going out with someone you are attracted to and is attracted to you, in order to spend time together and have fun. Regardless of the eventual outcome.
> 
> I think she is delusional in that respect.
> 
> I just don't get it man. She is so honorable in almost every other area of her life. She knows she cannot blame shift this. She knows she needs to be open and supportive. She knows she needs to show remorse and sympathy. She just isn't hitting the mark.


Get the book "not just friends" tell her she must read it. She doesn't sound honorable to me at all. Her primary relationship is with you and she treats you like ****. Time for you to see her for who she is. I mean she even admitted to it in her first crappy letter.

Here is how you can address this. Tell her that now you know it's fine if there is someone at your job whom you are attracted to, you are free to text her for months. Then eventually you can go to her house to watch movies. I am sure she will have NO problem with that. :surprise:

You wife is being silly, seriously. And she is got you believing her. Worse is that she is just straight up bullying you and it's gross.

One more thing, consider that 



> I just don't get it man. She is so honorable in almost every other area of her life. She knows she cannot blame shift this. She knows she needs to be open and supportive. She knows she needs to show remorse and sympathy. She just isn't hitting the mark.


may be because there is a lot more here and for her to be honorable would probably cost her her marriage. Occam's razor man, when they act completely out of character it's usually because they are desperate to save themselves and acting out of character is their last chance to do so.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> some other things you should know:
> 
> We don't use any form of contraception, per Catholic moral teaching. Not that that would stop someone from cheating. I mean, you're already gravely sinning.
> 
> My wife doesn't wear anything she thinks would attract the attention of other men. Including ever wearing pants in public, unless her backside is covered.
> 
> She doesn't read romance novels because she thinks they are akin to porn for women.
> 
> If we are watching a movie, and the actor is attractive, she turns her eyes during close ups.


This is kind of crazy. It kind of reminds me of the people who are secretly gay but publicly hate gay people. First off you don't learn to deal with temptation by turning your head when you are attracted to someone, that just intensifies it because you are SO busy looking away. Just strange. Seems like she almost has an abnormal obsession with this stuff. Besides that being attracted to someone is not a sin or a problem in a marriage. Everyone is attracted to people all the time, but you have to have experience with how to deal with that. Acting on it is the problem. Hiding your head under the pillow doesn't help that. Learning to feel the attraction and not be afraid of it but understand that it is just a fleeting emotion and has no power over you is how you deal with this stuff. Just like any other disciple you learn. Normally adjusted people don't have to go to these kinds of precautions. Why does your wife?

On the other end of the spectrum would be you also don't go on dates with guys you are attracted to, duh. Again this overkill almost seems fake especially in light of her long term "friendship" with the one guy which may have been an EA and dates with the other. And now her bulling of you. You sure you know your wife as well as you think? None of this passes the smell test with me, I have a bad feeling. I would really start digging, there is much more here. How well do you know her past? One things for sure you guys need to go to some counseling, preferable not catholic.


----------



## Andy1001

sokillme said:


> This is kind of crazy. It kind of reminds me of the people who are secretly gay but publicly hate gay people. First off you don't learn to deal with temptation by turning your head when you are attracted to someone, that just intensifies it because you are SO busy looking away. Just strange. Seems like she almost has an abnormal obsession with this stuff. Besides that being attracted to someone is not a sin or a problem in a marriage. Everyone is attracted to people all the time, but you have to have experience with how to deal with that. Acting on it is the problem. Hiding your head under the pillow doesn't help that. Learning to feel the attraction and not be afraid of it but understand that it is just a fleeting emotion and has no power over you is how you deal with this stuff. Just like any other disciple you learn. Normally adjusted people don't have to go to these kinds of precautions. Why does your wife?
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum would be you also don't go on dates with guys you are attracted to, duh. Again this overkill almost seems fake especially in light of her long term "friendship" with the one guy which may have been an EA and dates with the other. And now her bulling of you. You sure you know your wife as well as you think? None of this passes the smell test with me, I have a bad feeling. I would really start digging, there is much more here. How well do you know her past? One things for sure you guys need to go to some counseling, preferable not catholic.


The footer on your page perfectly sums up the op’s predicament.
He can cover it with fancy dressing but it is still a **** sandwich and not only is he expected to eat it but he has more to look forward to in the future.His wife has made it clear she isn’t going to change because she sees nothing wrong with her behavior.

This is a statement that I will believe until the day I die.
Religious people like her judge everyone else by their actions.They judge themselves by their intentions.


----------



## sokillme

Andy1001 said:


> The footer on your page perfectly sums up the op’s predicament.
> He can cover it with fancy dressing but it is still a **** sandwich and not only is he expected to eat it but he has more to look forward to in the future.His wife has made it clear she isn’t going to change because she sees nothing wrong with her behavior.
> 
> This is a statement that I will believe until the day I die.
> Religious people like her judge everyone else by their actions.They judge themselves by their intentions.


Your not wrong, but I have also found that often times they are like that because it provides good cover. It's just a big obfuscation. A big con. I have a sneaky suspicion "she doth protest too much".


----------



## Andy1001

sokillme said:


> Your not wrong, but I have also found that often times they are like that because it provides good cover. It's just a big obfuscation. A big con. I have a sneaky suspicion "she doth protest too much".


I try to stay away from religious threads because I get aggravated by the sanctimonious bs that flows through them.Where I live has a strong catholic population and it seems to me the biggest crooks are also the most pious.
When I was a child I was brought to mass one Sunday by my parents and there was a collection at the gate for some charity or other,all the local crawthumpers were out in force to be seen doing the Lords work.My Dad asked my Mom where was Ali Baba because it seemed the forty thieves were at church!


----------



## bethebetterman

Ww reaction here is almost identical to mine three years ago. She is trying to control you by making you think you are being unreasonable- that she is just friends and nothing happened and this is only an issue for you because you are immature/ unreasonable/ don't trust her. Been there got the t shirt. Spent many many months questioning myself and whether my reaction was fair. I played her game and she kept me off balance. Red flags everywhere but her approach and the fact I didn't want to believe it had me tied in knots for over a year. 

I even caught her kissing the guy but she brushed it off as "just" a kiss and why was I following her? By then I was actually so far gone that I was apologetic for following her rather than mad as hell. 

Don't fall for it. Don't justify why you feel the way you do. Your boundaries are yours. You don't need books or articles to reinforce them. If hers are different then you have to figure out if you can live with that. If not then you have a decision to make. Keep it simple. Don't let her lead you down a bunny hole. 



As I said it took me a year to finally realise what she had made me into. 

By that time she had moved on to another "friend". This time I didn't say anything. No point. I just went away for the weekend with our son camping and hired a PI. sure enough she moved in with her " friend " about ten minutes after we left and stayed all weekend. 

Don't waste any more time on words. She is right in one respect. You can't control her. She is what she is. You either love what she is or you don't. Don't waste time trying to change her. She won't change. She doesn't value you or her marriage enough to try because in her world you are being controlling and she has done nothing wrong.


----------



## bethebetterman

As a quick follow up. 

I divorced her. Yes it was hell for many months. Yes she tried to take the high ground claiming to everyone she had done nothing wrong. Yes she even tried to use access to our son as leverage. I stood firm throughout all of this because in the end the decision is always a simple one when you boil it down. 

If your approach and boundaries are incompatible with theirs and that makes you unhappy it's time to move on. 

As a kind of footnote. She has moved in with her AP now but still claims that I was wrong and that she wasn't having an affair to her family. She doesnt know I had the PI. Follow her and that I have conclusive proof. That was for my peace of mind not for her. That came in useful when my new partner dropped our son off at her house a few months back and she played the victim and said she never wanted a divorce. She spent an hour in floods of tears telling my new partner how unreasonable and immature and just plain wrong I was. When she got back my new partner told me about it and asked me what made me leave the marriage as my ex clearly felt she was the victim of a terrible misunderstanding. I simply showed her the PI Report and said that's who you are dealing with. Best £1000 I ever spent.


----------



## sokillme

Andy1001 said:


> I try to stay away from religious threads because I get aggravated by the sanctimonious bs that flows through them.Where I live has a strong catholic population and it seems to me the biggest crooks are also the most pious.
> When I was a child I was brought to mass one Sunday by my parents and there was a collection at the gate for some charity or other,all the local crawthumpers were out in force to be seen doing the Lords work.My Dad asked my Mom where was Ali Baba because it seemed the forty thieves were at church!


I get it but as someone who is considers themselves a Christian and tries not to be sanctimonious atheist can be some of the most sanctimonious *******s on the planet. Not all Christians are phonies either. For instance most of my childhood Thanksgivings were spent with homeless and/or what we would call poor souls. Lots of my youth was spent helping these people. I mean helping like going into the projects and painting their house, or loaning our car or even taking them to the DMV. That was done because we had a strong conviction that it was the right thing to do. One of the tenants of Christianity is to help those less fortunate. I grew up with lots of adults who acted that way consistently. They also had prayer meetings on Wednesday nights.

Catholicism is responsible for many of the best hospitals in the world. Religion created most of the best universities in the world as well. That is a fact, you can't just ignore it. Look at all the damage politics has done to the world. Are all politics bad? 

Being a hypocrite is not a religious character flaw it's a human one.


----------



## BobSimmons

This is unintentionally hilarious. 

Sorry.

Carry on...

Wait wait I can't help it, so if the AP gropes her with gloves, he isn't technically touching her skin to skin so it isn't cheating..right?

How about extendable comedy hands?


----------



## Andy1001

BobSimmons said:


> This is unintentionally hilarious.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Carry on...
> 
> Wait wait I can't help it, so if the AP gropes her with gloves, he isn't technically touching her skin to skin so it isn't cheating..right?
> 
> How about extendable comedy hands?


I swear on my child’s life this is true.
Many years ago myself and two friends were in a bar in NY.The bar was fitted out in booths for privacy and we were in one and next to ours there was a young guy with his girlfriend.Other than that the bar was empty.
He was complaining about her having sex with another guy in the boyfriends apt while he was at work.Apparently she had left a used condom lying around.
Her answer was a beauty.She said that the guy she was having sex with was an Indian man who’s parents had arranged a marriage for him,he was a virgin and didn’t want to disappoint his wife on their wedding night.She was only sleeping with him as a favor and there was no cheating involved as she didn’t have any sexual attraction to him.
I was trying not to laugh when the owner of the bar asked her how much were lessons.One of my friends let out a huge laugh and that started me off.She started haranguing her boyfriend about not standing up for her and defending her honor.
They left with him apologizing to her!


----------



## dianaelaine59

couldhavebeenworse said:


> some other things you should know:
> 
> 
> 
> We don't use any form of contraception, per Catholic moral teaching. Not that that would stop someone from cheating. I mean, you're already gravely sinning.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife doesn't wear anything she thinks would attract the attention of other men. Including ever wearing pants in public, unless her backside is covered.
> 
> 
> 
> She doesn't read romance novels because she thinks they are akin to porn for women.
> 
> 
> 
> If we are watching a movie, and the actor is attractive, she turns her eyes during close ups.
> 
> 
> 
> She tells me if she finds a guy attractive. She swears she initially told me about the guy on OJT when she was first introduced to him.
> 
> 
> 
> But, when I think about all of this, it makes it all the more surprising she would go out with a guy, or message with a guy constantly. I get we all make mistakes, but I question now what she really, truly believes.
> 
> 
> 
> She also said she never got dressed up for this dude, or changed anything about her appearance. She says that would have sent up red flags to her that she was going to far over the line.




Ummmm .... she IS a hypocrite!

Trying to look good to you, but a different woman behind your back. 

And the OM telling you he’s away? Yeah RIGHT!

I’m a woman and I’ve got more balls than you!!! I guess my dad gave me his extra pair. 🤪

But seriously, I don’t get why you believe ANY of it!

Wake up. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DjDjani

Look, tell her that you lost your trust in her and if she wants this marriage to continue she must take the poly graf test. It is polygraf or divorce. If she still doesn't want to do polygraf, then you know that she is lying and that she had a PA in past, probably couple of PA-s. Be firm and ask her that. Then, you will know everything you need to know. You are a young man, you will meet some good women who will treat your kids great and who will live and respect you. You don't need to stay in broken marriage because of kids. That is worse for them than good divorce.. If you want to know the truth, tell her to get polygraf tested. And if she agrees, do it. She will confess in a parking lot that she had a PA. You will see.


----------



## jlg07

bethebetterman said:


> As a quick follow up.
> 
> I divorced her. Yes it was hell for many months. Yes she tried to take the high ground claiming to everyone she had done nothing wrong. Yes she even tried to use access to our son as leverage. I stood firm throughout all of this because in the end the decision is always a simple one when you boil it down.
> 
> If your approach and boundaries are incompatible with theirs and that makes you unhappy it's time to move on.
> 
> As a kind of footnote. She has moved in with her AP now but still claims that I was wrong and that she wasn't having an affair to her family. She doesnt know I had the PI. Follow her and that I have conclusive proof. That was for my peace of mind not for her. That came in useful when my new partner dropped our son off at her house a few months back and she played the victim and said she never wanted a divorce. She spent an hour in floods of tears telling my new partner how unreasonable and immature and just plain wrong I was. When she got back my new partner told me about it and asked me what made me leave the marriage as my ex clearly felt she was the victim of a terrible misunderstanding. I simply showed her the PI Report and said that's who you are dealing with. Best £1000 I ever spent.


I hope you shared the PI report with HER family to stop her BS...


----------



## bethebetterman

jlg07 said:


> I hope you shared the PI report with HER family to stop her BS...


No - as i said that was for me. 

I am still on friendly terms with her family as they are our sons grandparents and his uncles, aunties etc. Sharing it with them might give me some short term satisfaction but what positive things will it achieve?

She is who she is. She knows what she has done. What she tells her family is up to her. They can choose to believe her or not (mostly not). 

She can only grow if she takes responsibility for her actions and that means telling the truth. One day she may understand this or she may never get it. 

Either way its really nothing to do with me.


----------



## Malaise

bethebetterman said:


> Either way its really nothing to do with me.


It's your life but I would not like to have my word doubted.


----------



## bethebetterman

no one likes it when their word is doubted and I am no different. 

The question for me revolves around whether I really need to publish it to help me in any way 

For me the answer to this is no since most of her family have come to see that she is dishonest so the answer is no. She has done that to herself without any assistance from me. 

Admittedly I didn't tell her at the time because o wanted to use the shock value to leverage the divorce and financial settlement. In the end I didn't need it. As time has gone on I don't feel the need as she has dug her own hole ( like most who lie repeatedly). 

It's still leverage to use as necessary and in some ways its value to me has increased as the more lies she has told the more leverage she is inwittingly giving me. 

Don't get me wrong there have been times when I have been tempted to just publish it but in the end she is destroying herself and her credibility all by herself. 

If and when I do use it it will be in the knowledge that I have her every opportunity to tell the truth 

As they say revenge is a dish best served cold.


----------



## oldtruck

There is no way that you can count on the OM to send emails/texts that
were not edited to remove all PA evidence. Specially if the OM has the
same wife/GF now that he had then. Also it would be poor form for the
OM to rat out your WW after she put out for him.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

I have them.

I scanned through them, but its 800 pages. I would like a separate opinion from a member who has been with TOM for a long time. I would like to email you the conversation and give me your opinion. don't read through all of it, of course, unless you want to.


----------



## anchorwatch

Emails or not, it's still a matter of what you are willing to live with, in your relationship. 

She gaslights and DARVOs everything to spin her own narrative. 

I personally wouldn't be with a woman who so summarily dismissed my feelings about her interactions with other males. 

Period!


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

So just to clear a few things up. 

My wife is not saying she isn't willing to change or that she did nothing wrong. She said she knows she did something wrong. She feels they were both violations of her boundaries. For the OJT guy, she admits (now) that it was an EA. She enjoyed the attention, and she convinced herself she wasn't doing anything wrong by hanging out with another man, people do it all the time, etc. She went to confession twice during this period to admit she was thinking about another man and spending time with another man. She felt obliged to be friends with him because of his depression. She also has admitted she was conflicted because she was attracted to him and like the attention. When he stopped messaging, she didn't pursue any further. I read the messages to her friend where she was talking about what to do, and she said that if God wanted anything more from her in helping this guy He would let her know, otherwise, she was closing the door. She has said things such as she intentionally never complimented him, even if he said things she thought were shopping for a compliment. She did not take any extra care in her appearance when they were out, as I already mentioned, because that would be a red flag to her. She also said that during this, she was driving past a nice house, and that made her think about our life together, our kids, etc. She thought about what life would be like with the OM, and wanted no part of it. She knew she wanted our marriage and our life. Yeah, it still sucks she continued to meet up with him and not tell me. It is very painful for me and will take a long time to recover. But, I find it hard, based on everything she is telling me, to consider this more than a relatively small EA, especially compared to other stories on here. 

Again, you and I know she was having an EA and lying to herself about why she was hanging out with him. But, she has said she knows now how easily things like this can happen and how easily her boundaries can fall if not kept in tight condition. I think one of the issues is my wife and I married very young, 20 for me and 19 (by one month) for her. This is her first job, really, since we have been married. She was in the Air Force when we first got together, for about a year before getting pregnant, but we worked in the same building and saw each other all day everyday. So, it is my opinion she is very naïve and she does not know how to act when dudes are pursuing her. I hope she can be better in the future.

For the FB dude, she admitted right away she knew it was wrong and that she was sorry. She has said she never felt any attraction to this dude, and never said anything flirty or inappropriate. She said it was like talking to one of her female friends. She gave him marriage advice, and vented to him. She says the main reason she chose to talk to him was because he was available. She felt like I didn't care and her girl friends weren't on FB all day like he was. She says she did get something out of talking to him, as a man, but very little and had no problem what so ever blocking him on FB.

As far as not changing, you may have taken her comment out of context. She is not saying she won't change and will continue to have male friends. She is just saying that me sending her articles is not going to make her change anything. In any situation, all you can do is change yourself. You can ask you spouse to change, for sure, but they have to decide to do it. 



On another note, I am still very pissed at all of this, and I hate that she is not really having any consequences. I am considering a separation, even if stay in the home.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

The FB dude lives in 1000 miles away. There is no way there was a PA. Unless he drove to my wife's drill weekend. 

I guess anything is possible.


And yes, he could have gone through and deleted stuff. And I'm sure he would have if there was anything bad.


----------



## Lostinthought61

so it sounds like she kept going getting closer and closer to the line, felt bad and retraced, but never really stopped wanting to brush with that risk, and i suspect in her mind she felt like she was always in control...bad assumption...but in the end, she is not changing for you...so she just want you to accept that. Here is a possible mirror response you could try and mind you, may not work...but i would sit her down and i would tell her that if her actions are the new normal in your house than fine, she has now given you the space to make women friends and spend time with them without her...what is good for the goose is good for the gander...then you watch what she says to that.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

so, maybe people don't read everything, and that's is fine. In fact, I don't read everything in these threads either.

However, again, she has said she does need to change and tighten boundaries.


----------



## Yeswecan

couldhavebeenworse said:


> so, maybe people don't read everything, and that's is fine. In fact, I don't read everything in these threads either.
> 
> However, again, she has said she does need to change and tighten boundaries.


Your W acknowledges she needs to change and work on boundaries. That is a good thing. Have your W read, "Not Just Friends" Shirley Glass.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

its these little comments that really anger me.

FB Dude:

Haha
You could have joined me for my fire

WW:

little far, or i would have

FB Dude:

BS could have stayed in the Rv and played video games haha

another:


FB Dude: So where are you going in (state he lives)?
09/01/2014 7:27AM

WW: Staying in (some town)

FB Dude: Nice, that's exactly two hours from me. What are you doing there?

WW: BS is traveling and we can't go with. I don't sit at home well so we are going to go visit my friend there and visit (some places).

FB Dude: Nice. If you find time you should come visit. On the 13th there is a local arts and crafts festival that has a car show too that I'll be at. Also Disney on ice frozen is going to be in (place) from the 18-22.

A few months later:

WS: Doing fine here, just way too busy. Was in (place) for 2 days last well and wanted to try to meet up (and check out that car!) but it was just too short. How are you doing



By the way, she is always with our 5 kids on these trips (we home school). I could simply ask my 16 year old if they ever met up with this other dude. I'm sure they didn't meet up though. No way she could get away with that without my kids telling me.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Lots of people recommending that book. We'll grab it. We have been reading:

Emotional Infidelity: How to Affair-Proof Your Marriage, by Gary Neuman


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

our counselor gave us a recovery book, haven't starting reading it yet.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> So just to clear a few things up.
> 
> My wife is not saying she isn't willing to change or that she did nothing wrong. She said she knows she did something wrong. She feels they were both violations of her boundaries. For the OJT guy, she admits (now) that it was an EA. She enjoyed the attention, and she convinced herself she wasn't doing anything wrong by hanging out with another man, people do it all the time, etc. She went to confession twice during this period to admit she was thinking about another man and spending time with another man. She felt obliged to be friends with him because of his depression. She also has admitted she was conflicted because she was attracted to him and like the attention. When he stopped messaging, she didn't pursue any further. I read the messages to her friend where she was talking about what to do, and she said that if God wanted anything more from her in helping this guy He would let her know, otherwise, she was closing the door. She has said things such as she intentionally never complimented him, even if he said things she thought were shopping for a compliment. She did not take any extra care in her appearance when they were out, as I already mentioned, because that would be a red flag to her. She also said that during this, she was driving past a nice house, and that made her think about our life together, our kids, etc. She thought about what life would be like with the OM, and wanted no part of it. She knew she wanted our marriage and our life. Yeah, it still sucks she continued to meet up with him and not tell me. It is very painful for me and will take a long time to recover. But, I find it hard, based on everything she is telling me, to consider this more than a relatively small EA, especially compared to other stories on here.
> 
> Again, you and I know she was having an EA and lying to herself about why she was hanging out with him. But, she has said she knows now how easily things like this can happen and how easily her boundaries can fall if not kept in tight condition. I think one of the issues is my wife and I married very young, 20 for me and 19 (by one month) for her. This is her first job, really, since we have been married. She was in the Air Force when we first got together, for about a year before getting pregnant, but we worked in the same building and saw each other all day everyday. So, it is my opinion she is very naïve and she does not know how to act when dudes are pursuing her. I hope she can be better in the future.
> 
> For the FB dude, she admitted right away she knew it was wrong and that she was sorry. She has said she never felt any attraction to this dude, and never said anything flirty or inappropriate. She said it was like talking to one of her female friends. She gave him marriage advice, and vented to him. She says the main reason she chose to talk to him was because he was available. She felt like I didn't care and her girl friends weren't on FB all day like he was. She says she did get something out of talking to him, as a man, but very little and had no problem what so ever blocking him on FB.
> 
> As far as not changing, you may have taken her comment out of context. She is not saying she won't change and will continue to have male friends. She is just saying that me sending her articles is not going to make her change anything. In any situation, all you can do is change yourself. You can ask you spouse to change, for sure, but they have to decide to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> On another note, I am still very pissed at all of this, and I hate that she is not really having any consequences. I am considering a separation, even if stay in the home.


Look only you can decide if you want to be married to someone who has multiple EA and goes on dates with other men. She sounds like the guy who goes to strip joints even though he promised his wife but says, well I never touched and looked at their eyes the whole time. Come on it's bull****. She was pushing boundaries to get the feeling of being wanted. What she was doing was disrespecting you, still is. 

Get the book - Not just friends. Have her read it.


----------



## badmemory

My take is she was on the cusp of a PA with both OM's and both of them were pressing the issue. It's very likely that the only reason she didn't meet up with FB guy was the logistics. Distance and having the children in tow.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> its these little comments that really anger me.
> 
> FB Dude:
> 
> Haha
> You could have joined me for my fire
> 
> WW:
> 
> little far, or i would have
> 
> FB Dude:
> 
> BS could have stayed in the Rv and played video games haha
> 
> another:
> 
> 
> FB Dude: So where are you going in (state he lives)?
> 09/01/2014 7:27AM
> 
> WW: Staying in (some town)
> 
> FB Dude: Nice, that's exactly two hours from me. What are you doing there?
> 
> WW: BS is traveling and we can't go with. I don't sit at home well so we are going to go visit my friend there and visit (some places).
> 
> FB Dude: Nice. If you find time you should come visit. On the 13th there is a local arts and crafts festival that has a car show too that I'll be at. Also Disney on ice frozen is going to be in (place) from the 18-22.
> 
> A few months later:
> 
> WS: Doing fine here, just way too busy. Was in (place) for 2 days last well and wanted to try to meet up (and check out that car!) but it was just too short. How are you doing
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, she is always with our 5 kids on these trips (we home school). I could simply ask my 16 year old if they ever met up with this other dude. I'm sure they didn't meet up though. No way she could get away with that without my kids telling me.


You should ask. Have you exposed this stuff at all. To her parents or leaders of the church. Exposure often bring contrition. 

Essentially what you read is a guy propositioning her for dates over and over. She should have shut that down from day one. But instead she found someone she was actually attracted to and more available and went on dates. 

I would ask her if she even wants to be married if she is content to let other men continually propose dates with her. This is not the actions of a women who wants to be in a marriage. It's the actions of someone who is playing both roles. It's monumentally unfair. She is a lousy wife. 

Whether your wife knows it or not this has damaged your marriage and her in your eyes. I would let her know that. Don't know how it couldn't. People with poor boundaries who push the envelope are hard to be married to. Same goes for those who are proud and defiant. Your wife is both not a good combination. Not sure how you want to respond, I know how I would. In house separation or even separation would probably be my answer. I would also got talk to my pastor. Get his sense. I would make it clear that you think she has had multiple EA and used ministering as an excuse to push boundaries. You feel disrespected an when you say that she responds defiantly. You are seriously considering divorce then ask him for help. Lets she if him being a position of authority changes her mind. But even still that shows her lack of respect for your authority and the christian husband of the family. Not a good thing. 

She is lucky she didn't marry a different man. A different one would use this as an out expose her affairs to the Church as the reason for the divorce and move on. I for one could not be married to someone like this for a second. She is just to full of crap. She knows better tells you she knows better does it then tells you to get over it.


----------



## jlg07

couldhavebeenworse said:


> its these little comments that really anger me.
> 
> FB Dude:
> 
> Haha
> You could have joined me for my fire
> 
> WW:
> 
> little far, or i would have
> 
> FB Dude:
> 
> BS could have stayed in the Rv and played video games haha
> 
> another:
> 
> 
> FB Dude: So where are you going in (state he lives)?
> 09/01/2014 7:27AM
> 
> WW: Staying in (some town)
> 
> FB Dude: Nice, that's exactly two hours from me. What are you doing there?
> 
> WW: BS is traveling and we can't go with. I don't sit at home well so we are going to go visit my friend there and visit (some places).
> 
> FB Dude: Nice. If you find time you should come visit. On the 13th there is a local arts and crafts festival that has a car show too that I'll be at. Also Disney on ice frozen is going to be in (place) from the 18-22.
> 
> A few months later:
> 
> WS: Doing fine here, just way too busy. Was in (place) for 2 days last well and wanted to try to meet up (and check out that car!) but it was just too short. How are you doing
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, she is always with our 5 kids on these trips (we home school). I could simply ask my 16 year old if they ever met up with this other dude. I'm sure they didn't meet up though. No way she could get away with that without my kids telling me.


Good -- this stuff SHOULD piss you off. This is blatant that she not only put up with it, she responded. What about this guys wife? Does SHE know about this stuff? She should...

I also think that you got a scrubbed version of the back and forth.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> its these little comments that really anger me.
> 
> FB Dude:
> 
> Haha
> You could have joined me for my fire
> 
> WW:
> 
> little far, or i would have
> 
> FB Dude:
> 
> BS could have stayed in the Rv and played video games haha
> 
> another:
> 
> 
> FB Dude: So where are you going in (state he lives)?
> 09/01/2014 7:27AM
> 
> WW: Staying in (some town)
> 
> FB Dude: Nice, that's exactly two hours from me. What are you doing there?
> 
> WW: BS is traveling and we can't go with. I don't sit at home well so we are going to go visit my friend there and visit (some places).
> 
> FB Dude: Nice. If you find time you should come visit. On the 13th there is a local arts and crafts festival that has a car show too that I'll be at. Also Disney on ice frozen is going to be in (place) from the 18-22.
> 
> A few months later:
> 
> WS: Doing fine here, just way too busy. Was in (place) for 2 days last well and wanted to try to meet up (and check out that car!) but it was just too short. How are you doing
> 
> By the way, she is always with our 5 kids on these trips (we home school). I could simply ask my 16 year old if they ever met up with this other dude. I'm sure they didn't meet up though. No way she could get away with that without my kids telling me.


You know I have been pretty hard on you, but I am going to lighten up on you a little. From what I am reading, I am now not convinced that it was physical, I am not convinced that it was not physical. 

I will not be surprised if it goes either way. I still lean physical but not so staunchly. 

But I am firm in this... Her attitude in general, and the letters in particular are just so out of line that I would divorce her for these things. 

He condescending attitude, it beyond the pale for me, and in those letters she is treating you like a dog. 

Now you may have let her treat you that way by not being assertive but buddy it is time for all of it to stop. You do not deserve to be treated that way by anyone, ever. 

Even if her affairs were not physical, and I am not sure either way, she was so out of line that she deserves for you to leave her. 

The other thing is this... If you don't stand up for yourself and stop being as weak as you have been with her, it really is a matter of time before she convinces herself that she is entitled to sleep with someone if she wants to. 

I really think you have to be hard with her about all of this until her attitude changes 180% and she starts to treat you with respect, because if she does not and you stay with her, then all I can conclude is that you do not respect yourself...


----------



## badmemory

jlg07 said:


> I also think that you got a scrubbed version of the back and forth.


Yep, it's probably more redacted than CIA documents after a congressional subpoena.


----------



## Lostinthought61

couldhavebeenworse said:


> so, maybe people don't read everything, and that's is fine. In fact, I don't read everything in these threads either.
> 
> However, again, she has said she does need to change and tighten boundaries.


Maybe i misunderstood what you wrote here:

"She is not saying she won't change and will continue to have male friends. She is just saying that me sending her articles is not going to make her change anything. In any situation, all you can do is change yourself. You can ask you spouse to change, for sure, but they have to decide to do it."


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

right. I see what you mean. 

She knows she has to have tighter boundaries, she is not going to have male friends. Her point was that sending her articles isn't what would make her change.

I spent a lot of time today reading through the messages. I told her I want to separate but stay in the house for now. Even though it wasn't physical, with either of them I believe, her lack of remorse and blame shifting have taken a toll.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

she was messaging him while we were out together. One time he even told her to stop messaging him since we were out together. 

Went to a ball game for our anniversary. (yes, she likes ball and wanted to go), but she sent him like 15 messages. He's a fan of the same team as us, but really? On our anniversary?


----------



## re16

couldhavebeenworse said:


> she was messaging him while we were out together. One time he even told her to stop messaging him since we were out together.
> 
> Went to a ball game for our anniversary. (yes, she likes ball and wanted to go), but she sent him like 15 messages. He's a fan of the same team as us, but really? On our anniversary?


Wow, at a moment you are celebrating your relationship with her, she was more interested in OM's attention.

Seems like she was addicted to the attention she was getting.

That stings.

Were you aware of all this messaging (not just this night but in general) or was she secretive about it?


----------



## Malaise

couldhavebeenworse said:


> she was messaging him while we were out together. One time he even told her to stop messaging him since we were out together.
> 
> Went to a ball game for our anniversary. (yes, she likes ball and wanted to go), but she sent him like 15 messages. He's a fan of the same team as us, but really? On our anniversary?


Is she aware she had made a choice between the two of you at this moment in time and chose him?


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> right. I see what you mean.
> 
> She knows she has to have tighter boundaries, she is not going to have male friends. Her point was that sending her articles isn't what would make her change.
> 
> I spent a lot of time today reading through the messages. I told her I want to separate but stay in the house for now. Even though it wasn't physical, with either of them I believe, her lack of remorse and blame shifting have taken a toll.


Maybe she wouldn't cheat on you. Maybe there was never a chance. Lets put the cheating aside. Maybe she didn't even have emotional feelings for these guys. Again let's go with her premise (which I think is foolish by the way). Then what she did was allow these men disrespect you, and your marriage so she could get their attention. She chose to pursue the feeling of being pursued at the expense of you feeling secure in your marriage. At the expense of her primary roll as your wife, which is honoring, respecting and protecting you and your marriage. 

In a sense, if we use just her description of what happened, then these relationships operated not very different then the way a cam-girl/customer relationship works. Knowing her type she probably thinks that would be a huge breach in the relationship and your intimacy in general if you were to say, follow one or two cam-girls for a long period of time. I would agree with her. Why would that be? Because she doesn't like the idea of you paying and looking at other women to get physical sexual stimulation? Now it's not real as there is no physical interaction, however there is still a sexual transaction that is totally inappropriate, made even worse by the fact that there is a live person which implies some sort of real intimacy on the other end of the screen. Even though the chances you will physically cheat doing this would be remote and to be honest less of a chance then her situation. It still be a big betrayal for her right? She may even consider this as cheating. Plus cam-girls watching can eventually lead to prostitutes sometimes as the buyer often needs to keep pushing the envelope. 

I propose that this is exactly the same type of transaction she set up with these men. The difference being that the currency was attention under the guise of christian mentorship with the payoff being emotional stimulation in the form of the attention of being pursued. Make no mistake this was a transactional relationship which was about emotional stimulation. She liked being pursued and these men pursued her. It feels good to have guys especially one whom you are attracted to pursue you. 

Ask her what the difference is in these scenarios? The only one I see is one is purely sexual and the other is emotional. Both are just wrong, compounded by her dismissive attitude towards what she did. I think like the guy obsessed with the cam-girl your wife was on a similar slippery slop. It's clear she was escalating with the second guy actually going on dates, she never met the first guy personally. I would ask your wife is she is sure she loves you and wants the marriage. Also how a christian women can do these things and then not humbly ask for forgiveness. 

Not good.

If you are going to separate then separate, go out at night and see movies by yourself of male friends. Don't tell her where you are going. Only spend time with her at agreed upon times with your family. Allow her to pursue you in a dating situation, but let her do some work. The point being give her a taste of what it would be like if you were not around. Don't make this only you sleeping on the couch, not sure what is accomplished by that. She wants to be single and have men chase her let her see what that is like with 4 kids and no husband. Plus like they say absence makes the heart grow fonder.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> right. I see what you mean.
> 
> She knows she has to have tighter boundaries, she is not going to have male friends. Her point was that sending her articles isn't what would make her change.
> 
> I spent a lot of time today reading through the messages. I told her I want to separate but stay in the house for now. Even though it wasn't physical, with either of them I believe, her lack of remorse and blame shifting have taken a toll.


Right, where is her sympathy and empathy for you as your wife or just your friend. She doesn't want to deal with the fact that she hurt you instead she wants to be defiant and bossy, is she always this way in the relationship? It's kind of sad actually.


----------



## Lostinthought61

couldhavebeenworse said:


> right. I see what you mean.
> 
> She knows she has to have tighter boundaries, she is not going to have male friends. Her point was that sending her articles isn't what would make her change.
> 
> I spent a lot of time today reading through the messages. I told her I want to separate but stay in the house for now. Even though it wasn't physical, with either of them I believe, her lack of remorse and blame shifting have taken a toll.


what was her response?


----------



## TAMAT

CHBW,

I haven't read your thread until now, but after skimming I would ask.

What is your WWs level of attraction and sex for you and how much has it varied during these affairs. Do you feel your WW has changed her view of you in some permanent way?

What have been the consequences for the OMs, one boundaries you can establish is that the OM will pay through exposure and especially with military personal by reporting it to the inspector general. 

Don't bother with the soldiers commanding officer he doesn't want to do paper work and will squash it. 

Have you confronted in person.

Tamat


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Her response:


I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.* 


I will respect your decision.* However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible.* I can get a job and you can get your own place.* I can take a trip with the kids. You or I can deploy.**


If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to write a list of expectations and rules.* I would also encourage you to consider that it wouldn't be fair to expect me to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that you take care of your own things- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Sorry I don't have time to answer everyone's questions. I do appreciate all of your wisdom and advice. I am off the next few days, probably won't be on much. I am going to continue with a 180. I will also be civil to her, but once the kids are in bed I'm my own man.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Her response:
> 
> I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.*
> 
> I will respect your decision.* However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible.* I can get a job and you can get your own place.* I can take a trip with the kids. You or I can deploy.**
> 
> If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to write a list of expectations and rules.* I would also encourage you to consider that it wouldn't be fair to expect me to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that you take care of your own things- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)


Are you F****** kidding me, come on dude this is a joke. You are just yanking our chain to see what we will say. 

Come on tell me you are just joking with us...


----------



## jlg07

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Her response:
> 
> 
> I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.*
> 
> 
> I will respect your decision.* However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible.* I can get a job and you can get your own place.* I can take a trip with the kids. You or I can deploy.**
> 
> 
> If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to write a list of expectations and rules.* *I would also encourage you to consider that it wouldn't be fair to expect me to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that you take care of your own things- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)*


WOW -- she is still cold as ice here. She really doesn't seem to give a damn one way or the other. The bolded is especially cold. This is all "Me Me Me" and nothing about you. Wow, "sorry for making you feel this way" not "sorry I hurt you". Also, "I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future" -- does THAT give you a warm fuzzy that she is doing ANYTHING to prevent it from happening? Is she working on herself to figure out WHY she did this and what SHE can do to prevent this (sure doesn't sound like it).

Man VERY sorry that you are dealing with this.


----------



## Malaise

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Her response:
> 
> 
> I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.*
> 
> 
> I will respect your decision.* However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible.* I can get a job and you can get your own place.* I can take a trip with the kids. You or I can deploy.**
> 
> 
> If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to write a list of expectations and rules.* I would also encourage you to consider that it wouldn't be fair to expect me to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that you take care of your own things- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)


Is she always this cold? 

She must have shown emotion or warmth ( to you I mean, not to OMs ) ?


----------



## BluesPower

Malaise said:


> Is she always this cold?
> 
> She must have shown emotion or warmth ( to you I mean, not to OMs ) ?


Well she has about all the emotional warmth of a rattle snake, is that what you mean?


----------



## Malaise

BluesPower said:


> Well she has about all the emotional warmth of a rattle snake, is that what you mean?


She must have shown some at one point.

Now, it seems, there's nothing.


----------



## OnTheRocks

You two are in many ways enemies now. Don't ever forget that.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Wow, she's really going to teach you a lesson about the value of being married to her! And she's going to do it through _laundry_? I wish her luck with that. Ask her when she's going to mow her half of the yard. She needs to be shocked into reality.


----------



## scaredlion

I have one question. Do you have a need for consequences or are you looking for revenge? Be careful that your need to "separate" doesn't turn into a need for a lawyer somewhere down the road. She is evidently already talking about a deployment for separation. She has admitted to her wrongs but you still have a need to punish her? Emotional consequences can be, in many cases, as bad as physical ones. My situation was somewhat like yours where a friend of mine thought he could take my place during a year long deployment. It has been so many years ago and my marriage has been so good and stable that I'm try to see all possibilities before I say separate or divorce. Of course divorce is, many times, called for because of the severity of the infidelity and the attitude of the WS. Give some deep thought to this separation and what it could possibly turn into. I do wish you well.


----------



## Sparta

Dude she has absolutely no respect for you you continue to be weak oh I will treat her with respect she’s not treating you with respect I don’t even know how you can look at her I don’t even know how you so many men are so f.ucking weak... 

Does any of these guys read any of the threads or what.? the man that led by strength from the get go came out on top much as you can from a sh!tty situation hey buddy I don’t know how you stay married to such a ungrateful b itch, I’m sorry but she’s a real POS if I ever seen one, I don’t know how you can even think about staying married to her. I guarantee your marriage is over she’s going to have Full physical affair teach you a lesson for not divorcing her ass... sorry but this one piss me off


----------



## BigDigg

I think OP is now seeing things straight. Great progress and whatever the chosen path forward he's at least taking a stand (of sorts) and won't let it drop. Many here would have filed right away but it's his life and it's certainly more complicated with children. Sometimes it just takes some time to really get a grip and process what's going on. 

IMO whether PA/EA or not isn't even the issue anymore. The biggest elephant in the room isn't the OM but his wife's complete lack of empathy and utter ambivalence to being married to him. Such coldness and lack of respect in her response - has she always been that way? That more than anything tells me that she checked out a long time ago or she's simply a dreadful human being. To some extent I can understand how an PA/EA can happen given our inherent weakness. But I can't understand how a wife/husband could treat their partner this way. She must have loved him at some point?


----------



## dreamer2017

Your wife is viewing you as a weak puppet of a man. You need to show strength in your relationship. I would suggest contacting the OM and asking him to reframe from communicating with your wife. Your wife must agree to stop all contact with the OM

I would also tell your wife, “you will share the responsibilities in the home when she is willing to share on the financial responsibilities.” Your wife has already removed you from her heart and mind, and this is becoming cancer in your life. You might either cure it or eradicate it.

You might want to consider meeting with the pastor or priest of your church for counseling. Also, considering contacting an attorney for some legal advice

Dreamer


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Sorry I don't have time to answer everyone's questions. I do appreciate all of your wisdom and advice. I am off the next few days, probably won't be on much. I am going to continue with a 180. I will also be civil to her, but once the kids are in bed I'm my own man.


Make sure sleeping with other men and dating is a part of the list of things not allowed. Honestly it seems like you wife is just going through the motions and doesn't really want your relationship. Does her parents know she had 2 emotional affairs. You should tell them, and your pastor. She has no shame really, none.


----------



## re16

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Her response:
> 
> ...I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future....
> 
> ...However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible....*


"I hope"? WTF. She should be saying "I will never..." She is directly leaving it open as a possibility that she will do it again.

And she is ok with separating if you want to? Basically she is saying, I'm not going to fight for my marriage even though I'm the one that caused the problem.

She is choosing losing you over committing to have appropriate relationships with the opposite sex in the future and has no real remorse for the pain she caused you.


----------



## re16

dreamer2017 said:


> . Your wife must agree to stop all contact with the OM


Push this issue. She's chosen OM over you many times in the past, including your anniversary.

If she doesn't agree to no contact with him, you know where allegiances are.


----------



## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.*


 "I am very sorry for making you feel this way" is not a real apology, as it does not admit any fault on her side, and instead puts in on not meaning to hurt your feelings. A real apology is her saying that she is sorry for the wrong that she did.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> I will respect your decision.* However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible.* I can get a job and you can get your own place.* I can take a trip with the kids. You or I can deploy.**
> 
> If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to write a list of expectations and rules.* I would also encourage you to consider that it wouldn't be fair to expect me to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that you take care of your own things- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)


 You expected that by saying this that you want a separation that she might show more remorse for what she did, but were wrong. Instead she is calling your bluff. The additional conditions is her spelling it out that she is still in control and makes the rules. The separation will be on her terms. She knows that the in-house separation is only for drama as you are not intending to go anywhere. Only divorce filing may have an effect on her, and maybe even not that if she just does not care anymore about you.


----------



## Dyokemm

re16 said:


> Push this issue. She's chosen OM over you many times in the past, including your anniversary.
> 
> If she doesn't agree to no contact with him, you know where allegiances are.


My money is on this:

She will resume contacting at least FB Boy.....and when OP catches her she will say, ”Well, we are separated like you wanted....so its not cheating.”

And I’m still not completely buying her story on Gomer Pyle (Military AP).....

She has thrown a lot of half-assed explanations about what she was thinking while talking to and out with this POS....and has assured OP she NEVER dolled herself up to go out because she saw that as a red line (lmao....eye roll)

BUT....IMO she has glossed over and YET to fully explain 2 things about that episode in a believable way....

1.....Knowing all she has ADMITTED to about the entire situation: her loving the attention, OM’s innuendos and sexual interest.....How in the H*LL did she allow herself to go alone up to his room to ‘watch TV’?......in addition, her recounting of what happened in that room just doesn’t pass the smell test simply on the admitted fact that OM was flirting with and throwing sexual innuendos at her....

I can’t believe he just sat on his hands on the other side of the room and gabbed about trivial nothings for hours.

2.....Nothing in her description of what went on even begins to make logical sense of why she was so upset at POSOM and telling her friend she wanted to confront him and tell him off, as OP knows happened because he has seen the texts to the friend.

Based on WW’s story, her feeling insulted to that extent makes no logical sense.....AND, if she were telling the truth about her thoughts and feelings during this episode, as well as everything that happened between them, she would have been RELIEVED that he was out of her hair, not angry.

Still stinks IMO.

So, I wouldn’t be shocked if she reached back out to this turd either if they decide to separate.....and she will say she needed ‘closure’ if OP busts her (that one is always a favorite of WW’s who get caught out breaking NC).


----------



## skerzoid

She thinks you're bluffing & she's calling your bluff. She's playing poker and you are playing Old Maid. To what extent is a separation going to accomplish anything?

1. Have her take a polygraph. If she refuses, have her served. 

2. Watch her actions after being served. The divorce can be put on hold at any time.

3. Have the kids ever been DNA tested? It sets a tone.

4. You are dealing with a pretty cool customer here. You need to knock her off her stride. Otherwise, you are toast.


----------



## Townes

I've been going back and forth on does the prospect of being a single mother to 5 children really not faze her, or does she just totally have your number and calling your bluff. Either way, it's kind of amazing how thoroughly and utterly she has established dominance in your relationship. 

OP, I don't think you're going to subtly out-maneuver her. Let's just be real about the fact that she's better at this than you are. Surely playing on your computer after dinner instead of watching tv with her is not going to shift the power dynamic. You're going to have to go big or go home on this one. Because the more of these little battles she wins, the less she's going to respect you, and she ain't starting with much respect now.


----------



## ABHale

couldhavebeenworse said:


> right. I see what you mean.
> 
> She knows she has to have tighter boundaries, she is not going to have male friends. Her point was that sending her articles isn't what would make her change.
> 
> I spent a lot of time today reading through the messages. I told her I want to separate but stay in the house for now. Even though it wasn't physical, with either of them I believe, her lack of remorse and blame shifting have taken a toll.


Hey I know you have seen guys like the one your wife was attracted to. Do you honestly think he would have pursued your wife as long as he did with out getting anywhere with her?

Then why did she try and contact him again?


----------



## smi11ie

It is probably a good idea for her to get a job and split the chores. You are going to have your work cut out keeping her happy.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Hi y'all. Not too much to update. a month or two ago, when were were talking about FB guy, she told me about this conversation she had where she suggested he come with her to an event since I wouldn't. (4 hour drive, 5 kids, for something pretty lame.) (I will copy the conversation for you.) 

So, the FB guy did not send me everything because it was too much. I asked for this particular conversation, and suggested he just download all FB data and send the whole conversation as it comes from FB, that is, and HTML document. He agreed that would be easy and did it. I now feel like I have the WHOLE conversation. I doubt he is skilled enough to manipulate the HTML download from FB. Again, possible, but given all the evidence and how cooperative he has been, I believe it is unadulterated. I have not read through the whole thing, but here are my observations:

1. They talked a TON. everyday, pretty much.
2. It was mostly him initiating. "How was your night..How was your weekend....How have you been? (she did some of that too, but mostly him.
3. I only saw 3 compliments from him to her, and 0 from her to him. She sent him pics of her in the field, he said she looked nice even though she hadn't showered. Said that twice within that conversation. No response from wife. maybe a thanks. Another time, around that same time frame, he said he was fond of her. No reply from her. 
4. He once said he had a dream about the two of them, something about snow coming. She said HAHA, and talked about the weather.
5. He said things on several occasions supportive of our marriage. Once, she was talking to him, and it came out that we were out cruising together. He said "then why are you talking to me? enjoy your cruise." Another time he was saying how we need to take a vacation together, needed to spend more time together. He said we need to schedule it or it won't happen. 
6. He was definitely trying to meet up with her, IMO. That time she was joking about him coming to her event, he told her he checked his calendar and it wouldn't work. Another time he was coming to the state she drills in, and she asked if he was coming through her area. He then tried to get her to skip her drill weekend and come be his "date" at his brothers bday party. (I asked my wife why she would be trying to meet up with him. She said she was just saying that like you would a friend "oh, stop by when youre in the area." she knew it wouldn't work and says she would have found a way out of it. Not sure I fully believe that, but whatevs. 
7. They talked on the phone on two occasions. They were both driving, the talked for about 2.5 hours that Friday night, and about an hour that Sunday night. I checked in my Verizon account and verified that information.
8. She continues to admit it was wrong, but denies she wanted to meet up with him, or was ever attracted to him, or was emotionally attached to him. She admits she was getting something out of it, obviously, but doesn't think she was attached in anyway. She has swears she has no desire to talk to him again, and won't. She said there has been only a few occasions where she grabbed her phone to send him a message about something out of habit and then remembered that is no longer an option. 
9. She wants to do an online program from a catholic team that wrote a book called marriage 9-1-1.
10. She agreed to read "Not Just Friends."
11. She looked at all of our marriage vows, and went through each one and confessed and apologized for each one she had broken.
12. She has sent me texts saying stuff like "I am more sorry than you could possibly imagine." and things like that.

Thoughts?


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

OM:

Guess you need to use that new fancy microwave to thaw the meat &#55357;&#56841;

You two need a break together. Before he leaves again. Tell your kids to suck it up one evening and deal with your sister while you guys go on a date.

(short time later)

OM:

I know sounds harsh but you seriously need time together and with your schedule, you have to schedule it in or it won't happen.

WW:

I can only microwave raw meat in extenuating circumstances. I really don't like microwaves. 

Pasta for dinner. 

And yes, we need time. It's actually date night. But there's so many things to catch up on.

OM:unless you are making meatballs, cook it frozen. takes a little more patience and tending to so you don't burn it but it works

wine and a movie with a DND on the door


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

OM:

When are you leaving Friday for drill?

WW: 

Probably 5 ish. Have QVH. You driving through XXXXX? (she had asked him if he was driving through this place about a month before this when he first mentioned he was coming to the state she drills in.)

OM:

It's tempting, just the wrong side of the state that I'm going to 

WW: 

plus I won't get there until 10ish. 

I will be in (her parents city) sun night tho. What time you leaving?

OM:

Around 1....
What time do you have to be on base Saturday?

WW: 0700

OM:

There's no way you'll want to get up and leave by 4 to get there that morning either. ... Stupid drill

(short time later)

Just play hooky and come be my date at the b-day party.

WW:

Haha. I'm sure it'd be a blast but that would be beyond miserable both sat and sun!

OM:

I'm sure it would be....

WW:

Though I still don't have lodging figured out. Ugh.

OM:

see, even more of a reason to not go to drill haha. you don't want to sleep in the car.

WW:

Haha. Not that easy. Need a real reason.

OM:

car wouldn't steer to XXXX, took a detour to XXXXX and then broke down?

WW:

Right. Not suspicious at all.

(a short time later)

We have 3 core values
Integrity first
Service before self
And excellence in all we do

I think lying to skip drill to party would go against 3.

OM:

yeah unfortunately...... hey worth a shot haha

(short time later)

timing of the trip and drill sucks but what can you do.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

OM:

You didn't tell me you had a younger husband this weekend.

WW:

Oh good heavens. Yeah. It was horrible.

My friend xxx got married last week. Her hubby came down sat night. Other drill friend xxx brought her hubby. xxxx' s hubby brought a friend. Said friend turned 21 last week. He was pretty WT looking. Shaggy, dirty ball cap. Couldn't tell you anything about him because he was on his phone the whole time. Literally. The only time he spoke was when we were going back up to our rooms and I asked How tall he was. 6-5. (BS is 6-2. So when you look tall to me I know You're really tall) I actually feel horrible now for not chatting with him....

Anyway. He was sitting next to me. Obviously we looked like 3 couples. We were at the hotel bar. He went out to smoke and xxx 's husband said something about my husband and I was all. .That is NOT my husband! notice How I didn't introduce him? And he's so young. And clearly not my type! Trying to be nice but yikes. Bit later, guy from our unit sits with us. They go out to smoke again And he says something about me not introducing my hubby. Right. BECAUSE HE'S NOT MY HUBBY! like really? Because I'm sitting next to him?? Note to self. 

Of course Sunday I was hearing about it. Probably will for a while. Trying to balance being charitable And not causing a scandal!

OM:

Hahaha that's hilarious

WW: Yeah. It makes me want to drag my hubby down and introduce him. That's for sure.

OM:

Oh absolutely haha.

Though they won't know the difference I'll stand in if Bryan can't make it hahaha

WW: Awesome. First full weekend in Sept. It's the wing picnic and he's said he's not coming again this year. Grr. Bring your wife and daughter. We'll say they're our kids.

Actually. Skip them. Bring the vette. Lol

OM:

Haha that'll be hilarious to introduce them as our kids... Though i don't think (his wife) would to for that.

WW: 

definitely think she would be a bit put out. I'd be funny though. Only a few people have met my hubby. And only one kid has come down.

It'd be fun to go cruising around down there, that's for sure. Lots of backgrounds.

OM:

yes it would be. if only it weren't so far for me....

WW:

Yeah. That's kinda a problem.

OM:

and I have the older kids that weekend..... haha, yes I looked to see if it would be feasible haha.

WW:

Hahaha. You're so kind. I should tell Bryan you're willing to comet
if he doesn't. Maybe then he'll come! He's such a punk.

OM:

haha go for it.  just make sure you take a picture of his face so I can see. haha.


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

One other thing I noticed:

A lot of times she would send me something, and then send him the same thing. (Like some event that just happened, little things.)

I would almost always just give here a short Wow! or in certain cases say nothing at all.

He would always comment and they would have a short conversation about it.

I KNOW its not my fault she was talking to him as much as she did, yada yada yada.

But dang, I actually felt physically sick when I saw my responses compared to his. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY been neglecting her. 

I also get that in affairs there's a newness to the relationship and much more energy, but my eyes have been opened on her complaints about me not paying attention to her. I told her this, had to be honest.


----------



## badmemory

If you can think in terms of an affair continuum where "1" is crossing a reasonable marital boundary, "3" is an EA, "6" is sexting and pictures, "8" is a PA and "10" is an exit affair; I would peg your wife as a 2 with FB guy and a 5 with her co-worker.

Luckily, her co-worker got impatient and moved on. FB guy is a lot more patient, but you apparently caught that before it went further. By all rights this should concern you. But it "appears" that your wife is finally coming around to what she's done. If she remains contrite and willing to be completely transparent going forward, then maybe you two will be okay.

That said, you should continue to *discreetly* monitor her for as long as you feel the need. And that could be a while.


----------



## BluesPower

couldhavebeenworse said:


> One other thing I noticed:
> 
> A lot of times she would send me something, and then send him the same thing. (Like some event that just happened, little things.)
> 
> I would almost always just give here a short Wow! or in certain cases say nothing at all.
> 
> He would always comment and they would have a short conversation about it.
> 
> I KNOW its not my fault she was talking to him as much as she did, yada yada yada.
> 
> But dang, I actually felt physically sick when I saw my responses compared to his. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY been neglecting her.
> 
> I also get that in affairs there's a newness to the relationship and much more energy, but my eyes have been opened on her complaints about me not paying attention to her. I told her this, had to be honest.


I want to quote everything that you wrote, but it is just too much...

Here is the deal, that letter that she wrote you, shows many things. A lot of things that I think you refuse to see because you want to believe that it is all not true. 

That letter said that you can go screw yourself, you are the one with the problem, not her. 

Further, you think you can trust what this guys is sending you. Why? He has no incentive to help you, regardless of what you think. Regardless if you think he is to stupid to not send you the good stuff, that is foolish. 

Things you know: 

1) Your wife has absolutely no respect for you in any way. None, zero, nada, zilch, you get the picture. 

2) SHE cheated, at the very least emotionally, that much you can see from these texts. 

3) SHE is laying down the RULES about when and what you can see, when she cheated on you. 

4) You have no idea what "cleansed" version of the texts you are getting and apparently you never will. I guess she deleted it off of her phone, gee, I wonder why? 

5) If you want to save your marriage, you MUST file for divorce and move out. If she does not wake up instantly, then you should just divorce her and move on.

Now, you don't think that she physically cheated, but you have not done a polygraph, BECAUSE SHE MAY NOT WANT TO??????

Everyone here, that is experienced, for the most part, thinks that she physically cheated, and since you are too weak, you will not poly her. 

So you can continue to live with a woman that cheats on you, has no respect for you, or... you can man up, do what has to be done and let the chips fall where they may. 

As far as what you did and did not do, who in the F*** cares, it does not now or ever will it justify it in any way. 

You really need to wake up and get your balls back from wherever she put them...


----------



## couldhavebeenworse

Thanks Blue, and Bad memory. Obviously two different ends of the spectrum. I guess the bottom line is I know the situation far more than anyone else on here. I can't type out everything that has been said or done in the last 3 months. I do not, at all, under almost any circumstance, believe she physically cheated. I am not going to polygraph her. She has maintained that the things that has haunted her the most about all of this is the one time she feels she blatantly lied to me. I don't think she would blatantly lie again. I don't think there would be any reason for her to have told me about the OJT guy only to lie about what it was. I appreciate all of your experience and wisdom and everything else. But, sometimes it really doesn't get physical, and sometimes wife's are able to maintain some sembelance of their boundaries. For my wife, she let her boundaries slip for spending time with men on FB or out a few times, and in her thoughts, as she confessed. However, she did not allow her self to cross the line into romance with either of these two. She purposely chose to not compliment OJT guy, or dress differently for him, or do anything that would start to take "hanging out" to the next level. She refused to stay at his apartment that night, even saying she would walk home. So while some of her boundaries fell, she maintained other, more important ones. 

And for the person a few days or a week ago the mentioned looking at her reactions etc. etc., I am a federal Agent, I have been trained very well to detect evasion and lies. She has not demonstrated anything that makes me feel she has been evasive or is lying. Doesn't mean she isn't. I am not saying she absolutely, positively did not cheat physically. I am just saying the likelihood of that is so small it is not worth my time to ponder it any further. 

I will continue with the separation, and I will continue with our counseling, and I will go ahead with the marriage 9-1-1 program she found. I don't see any reason why our case would not be a great case for reconciliation. Again, I have betrayed her just as much (?) with pornography use behind her back and lying about it. 

thanks!


----------



## badmemory

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I will continue with the separation, and I will continue with our counseling, and I will go ahead with the marriage 9-1-1 program she found. I don't see any reason why our case would not be a great case for reconciliation. Again, I have betrayed her just as much (?) with pornography use behind her back and lying about it.
> 
> thanks!


You're doing fine Couldhavebeenworse. Unfortunately 2x4's come with the territory sometimes. Even unnecessary ones.

Pornography doesn't compare to what she did. No problem with you working on your end of the marriage, but just make sure that her EA's are dealt with completely before you dive head deep in it.


----------



## Washashore

I don’t know Blues, this really looks like a friendship that was heading to dangerous territory, but never crossed over. Yes, Could needs to keep his eyes open, but what he has shared here is friendship stuff. Did an emotional attachment form? Yes. But there doesn’t seem to be any of the usual cheater script, compliment baiting, complaint about spouses. It sounded like two friends talking about stuff. Male and female talking way too much, but there is no innuendo there. No sexual tension. 

Could, your wife got too close to someone who paid her attention. Fortunately, they both seem like pretty good people, and didn’t irreparably damage both your marriages. Cheaters lie, it’s part of the definition. I’m not certain your wife fits.

You’ve handled this well. Keep digging if your gut tells you to, poly if you need to, and keep working on your marriage. She sounds like she needs to stay connected to you. Help her do that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thummper

Perhaps an important boundary to reinforce is that :soapbox: *MARRIED WOMEN DON'T DATE OTHER MEN* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Washashore

One small t/j

Pornography may not be a big deal. Lying about it is. Friendships aren’t necessarily a big deal. Hiding them is. Going to someone or something else to meet a need that you’ve pledged will be met within your marriage is always a problem. 

Could. You will do well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower

OK, I accept your response OP and I will leave it alone. 

My prediction, in 6 months, a year, maybe two, you will be back with the "OK, everyone was right post". 

At that point, I won't beat you in the head with a 2x4. 

I do really hope that you are right, but I think you will find that you are not...


----------



## Lostinthought61

Could,

I tend yo agree with your assessment, but it does note that there are two issues that seem to be most prevalent in your marriage, you two have lost the ability to communicate in a manner that has nothing to do with the kids, the house or daily chores. which leads to the second issue is her need for friendship with a male person to fill that void, and not understanding the boundaries of those friendships on an emotional side. I think you both can recover from this, if both of you are hell bent and determined to do so, and if your both willing (especially your wife) to leave behind the electronic social media that seems to be crowding your marriage. i wish you luck.


----------



## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Thanks Blue, and Bad memory. Obviously two different ends of the spectrum. I guess the bottom line is I know the situation far more than anyone else on here. I can't type out everything that has been said or done in the last 3 months. I do not, at all, under almost any circumstance, believe she physically cheated. I am not going to polygraph her. She has maintained that the things that has haunted her the most about all of this is the one time she feels she blatantly lied to me. I don't think she would blatantly lie again. I don't think there would be any reason for her to have told me about the OJT guy only to lie about what it was. I appreciate all of your experience and wisdom and everything else. But, sometimes it really doesn't get physical, and sometimes wife's are able to maintain some sembelance of their boundaries. For my wife, she let her boundaries slip for spending time with men on FB or out a few times, and in her thoughts, as she confessed. However, she did not allow her self to cross the line into romance with either of these two. She purposely chose to not compliment OJT guy, or dress differently for him, or do anything that would start to take "hanging out" to the next level. She refused to stay at his apartment that night, even saying she would walk home. So while some of her boundaries fell, she maintained other, more important ones.
> 
> And for the person a few days or a week ago the mentioned looking at her reactions etc. etc., I am a federal Agent, I have been trained very well to detect evasion and lies. She has not demonstrated anything that makes me feel she has been evasive or is lying. Doesn't mean she isn't. I am not saying she absolutely, positively did not cheat physically. I am just saying the likelihood of that is so small it is not worth my time to ponder it any further.
> 
> I will continue with the separation, and I will continue with our counseling, and I will go ahead with the marriage 9-1-1 program she found. I don't see any reason why our case would not be a great case for reconciliation. Again, I have betrayed her just as much (?) with pornography use behind her back and lying about it.
> 
> thanks!


She is married a claims to be a Christian, and a mother of 4, she shouldn't be having and having intimate conversations with other men. Period. The worst of all is how dismissive of you she is. She knows she did wrong yes, but she doesn't seem to have any emotional reaction to that or how it hurts you. It's all technical but it never sounds emotional. Is she sorry because she hurt you or because she disobeyed the commandments? Does this women love you? Have you asked? 

It's your life though.


----------



## Dyokemm

Well OP,

If you are satisfied with her answers, then ultimately that is all that matters.

Those FB messages show what I thought they would, and have stated a couple times since your first post.....FB Guy was a ‘nothing burger’.

As far as Gomer Pyle....

Well....you have chosen to believe her....

So I will just make one last post listing where you are completely taking the word of a woman who lied to you, has every reason to minimize what happened, admits attraction to OM, and has informed you OM was using sexual innuendo to pursue her.....after that I will leave it be.

You say ‘she purposely chose’ not to compliment OM or doll herself up for him...as if these are established facts.

In reality, you do not KNOW this at all.....it comes solely from her word.....you may think that is ‘gold’ because you trust her.....other posters, who have dealt with their own WS and read so many threads here before, might be less than impressed with the absolute certainty of a WS’s ‘word’ on anything.

You also say she purposely chose not to take the relationship to the next level.....

Then in the very next sentence, talk about how she decided not to stay in his apartment that night and chose to walk home.....

Well....going alone to his apartment IS taking a relationship to the next level.....bad enough she was going to the movies and dinner with him alone, knowing he was sexually pursuing her.....

But to then go alone to his room?......THAT is definitely taking it to a whole new level.

And it means NOTHING that she told you she decided not to stay there the whole night......

One.....it is once again something you only know from her word.....

Two.....any PA activity would not require her to stay the night at all.....in fact, it would not have even required the full time of the movie she says they were going to watch.

And lastly.....your WW has still not adequately explained exactly why she was so offended by OM blowing her off that she told her friend by text she was considering confronting him and telling him off.

If this entire situation was a ‘whole lot of nothing’ as your WW is telling you......then her anger and thought of confronting him are completely illogical.....

If her description is full and true about her feelings, intentions, and reactions to his sexual innuendos....then she should have been RELIEVED he was gone and out of her hair......that she was no longer having to dealing with his pressure and ‘come ons’.

So why the anger and confrontation talk in the text to friend?

All that said....

I wish you the best on the path you have chosen OP.

Good luck.


----------



## stro

Yeah you may be right in saying she didn’t get physical but she pushed it to the very edge of that boundary when she went to his apartment alone, late at night. She had to have been at least been contemplating it. She isn’t THAT naive.


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## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> But dang, I actually felt physically sick when I saw my responses compared to his. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY been neglecting her.


Of course he won by comparison. Your wife gave the other man home court advantage in that he knew about you and knew that he was at war with you for her affection, while she kept her relationship with him and the the war a secret from you. Hard to win a war when you you do not even know that you are in one because you have a traitor working with the other side in keeping it a secret from you.

The fact that you told her that she was right in that you neglected her, will be viewed by her that she was right to cheat and lie about it. Hint #1: the minute that you say “I do”, is suppose to be when the compatition for your spouse’s affection ends for life. Hint #2: when you feel neglected by your spouse a non-cheater clearly communicates this with their spouse instead of using it as an excuse to cheat. Hint #3: in the history of mankind, cheating has never been a good way to work on issues in your marriage. Hint #4: if you act like a doormat, she will treat you like a doormat and cheat again.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

BigDigg said:


> So if I read all this straight your wife admitted to having a crush on a guy(s) and basically going on dates with them while out of town. These dates included alcohol and private alone time at a residence/hotel. She may or may not have done anything physical, however she wasn't straight with you at any point in this, trickle truthed, and instead of being fully transparent is acting like a lawyer and parceling out details with conditions attached and omissions.
> 
> If this was all fully innocent or just naive behavior surely she would see how this situation and lack of boundaries would be concerning to you and feel some level of remorse. She would actively work with you to shine light on this and earn your trust. But she's not doing any of that. Instead she has shown clear lack of respect for you and your marriage. She treats you with utter contempt and disdain. Her seething anger and annoyance in the letter under these conditions is unlike anything I've heard.
> 
> At this point this marriage looks doomed whether she ultimately cheated or not. I wouldn't want to stay one more day with someone like this.


Something tells me this was not her first or second rodeo. Her letter, in my humble opinion, was an attempt at justifying her actions. I assume she is catholic since confession is mentioned. I wonder what the priest’s told her her penance was to be?
I get the narcissist vibe from the letter. You are in a classic state or total trickle truth. Put on your big boy pants. File for divorce,
Schedule a polygraph, and if she refuses to take the poly, you have your answer. 

You are playing nice. Women do not respect nice, they respect strength and assertiveness.

For the record, there is not a snowballs chance in hell these relationships did not go physical. I would bet she contacted the other man to coordinate the story. 

Stand up for yourself sir. Quit being a doormat.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

couldhavebeenworse said:


> some other things you should know:
> 
> We don't use any form of contraception, per Catholic moral teaching. Not that that would stop someone from cheating. I mean, you're already gravely sinning.
> 
> My wife doesn't wear anything she thinks would attract the attention of other men. Including ever wearing pants in public, unless her backside is covered.
> 
> She doesn't read romance novels because she thinks they are akin to porn for women.
> 
> If we are watching a movie, and the actor is attractive, she turns her eyes during close ups.
> 
> She tells me if she finds a guy attractive. She swears she initially told me about the guy on OJT when she was first introduced to him.
> 
> But, when I think about all of this, it makes it all the more surprising she would go out with a guy, or message with a guy constantly. I get we all make mistakes, but I question now what she really, truly believes.
> 
> She also said she never got dressed up for this dude, or changed anything about her appearance. She says that would have sent up red flags to her that she was going to far over the line.


My good man, my FWW wife and I are both catholic, and that did not stop her from having an affair. Catholics are not some super moral group of people as this seems to be the stereotype, but are human as the rest of the population, no better no worse than anyone from another religious denomination.

She is stringing you along like a pro.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

couldhavebeenworse said:


> The FB dude lives in 1000 miles away. There is no way there was a PA. Unless he drove to my wife's drill weekend.
> 
> I guess anything is possible.
> 
> 
> And yes, he could have gone through and deleted stuff. And I'm sure he would have if there was anything bad.


Really? Hop a plane that is a three hour journey. You are being played like a violin.:surprise:


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

couldhavebeenworse said:


> she was messaging him while we were out together. One time he even told her to stop messaging him since we were out together.
> 
> Went to a ball game for our anniversary. (yes, she likes ball and wanted to go), but she sent him like 15 messages. He's a fan of the same team as us, but really? On our anniversary?


Man as I move through this thread all I see are additional red flags. This is nothing but 100% disrespect to you.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

couldhavebeenworse said:


> Her response:
> 
> 
> I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.*
> 
> 
> I will respect your decision.* However, if you truly have a desire to separate, I do think that is possible.* I can get a job and you can get your own place.* I can take a trip with the kids. You or I can deploy.**
> 
> 
> If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to write a list of expectations and rules.* I would also encourage you to consider that it wouldn't be fair to expect me to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that you take care of your own things- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)


Take her up on this offer, and draft some rules, and again, she is playing chess while you are playing tiddlywinks. “You or I can deploy”.....a veiled threat inferring she can deploy and hook up with someone else. With a cheater you cannot accept words at face value. 

See an attorney and have a formal separation agreement, or better yet file and have her served. The key thing missing is consequences. She needs some.

She has zero respect for you in my opinion. Federal agent or not, you may be trained to spot lies, but only when emotions are not involved. The heart has tendencies to blind us from things we wish not to see. Therefore, POLYGRAPH is necessary. Not to get answers but to show her you cannot and do not trust a word that she writes or speaks. My FWW after I had her write me a detailed timeline agreed to a poly. I told her prior to arriving one lie, we are toast. I learned she was truthful with me.
You may never know.

PS: I am not trying to monopolize your thread,but your story got my blood boiling as it in some instances, mirrored how my FWW tried to play me. As a poster told me shortly after DDay, be strong.


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## OutofRetirement

couldhavebeenworse said:


> she was messaging him while we were out together. ... she sent him like 15 messages.


Please put to bed the notion that she messaged him because he responded in detail and you did not. It was not about that. Even when you were out together, she sought his attention.

No one initiates messages the amount and frequency she did unless emotionally invested. I agree she may have rationalized the "like a girlfriend" deal. Not so, but people in general tend to rationalize why they are doing wrong things. I would think in your occupation you understand that almost everyone rationalizes or has an excuse.

I agree that you could have been more attentive and responsive to your wife. I don't think it resulted in her seeking attention with other men.


----------



## OutofRetirement

couldhavebeenworse said:


> She thought about what life would be like with the OM.


"Compared to other stories here, it was relatively minor."

COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE, right?

Who could disagree with those statements? They are true statements. Compared to the other extremely horror stories here, your situation is not anywhere near as bad. And it always could have been worse. So these are rationalizations of your own.

Question: When was the last time YOU thought about what life would be like with another woman?

Because your wife was thinking about it.

Not only that, she had a whole set of "rules" set up about some other man - no compliments, no primping, etc. That's a lot of head space for another man. Yet, it somehow never occurred to her that the moral rules - having secrets with another man.

"Lead us not into temptation." Deliver us from evil.

She gets very technical around the "rules." I am Catholic. Lots of rules. Jesus was Jewish. They maybe had even more rules than us. 

I think the terms are "the letter of the law" vs. the "spirit of the law." She seems focused on the letter of the law. Not so much on the spirit of the law. Jesus had some issues with that. 

Even now with her contradictory sorrys. Her words say sorry, her tone says otherwise. I guess sorry is the letter of the of the law part, her disrespectful way she says it is the spirit of the law.

It wasn't dating because dating is only to discern marriage. Cheating is very predictable, cheaters across all races, religions, backgrounds say very similar things. But that one about the definition of dating, that is a first for me.


----------



## OutofRetirement

couldhavebeenworse said:


> her lack of remorse and blame shifting have taken a toll.


This is the crux of it now. I don't see divorcing over it, but I see a nagging problem to you.

What you found in January was that she was complaining a lot about you to another man, who she said she considered like a girlfriend. The first big problem is not the infidelity, per se, but that she has a lot of issues with you, and she doesn't communicate it to you. You are unaware of her complaints.

A polygraph is a tool. 180 is a tool. Neither might be beneficial in your situation. I think your wife has some built-up resentments about you. You do seem to be genuinely unaware about her complaints. Maybe you don't know the half of it, yet. Maybe she even holds back complaining about it all. Or maybe she over-exagerrates. But the initial problem is lack of communication. So I personally don't believe 180 is effective if communication is an underlying problem.



couldhavebeenworse said:


> Her response:
> 
> I am very sorry for making you feel this way.* That was not my intention. I was selfish and only thinking of myself and my needs. I hope that I can never allow such a thing in the future.*
> 
> I will respect your decision.* However, if *you truly have a desire to separate,* I do think _that is possible_.* _I can get a job_ and _you can get your own place_.* _I can take a trip with the kids_. _You or I can deploy_.**


I would be very tempted to tell her that she should deploy. I'd like to see her reaction to that. I'm curious to see how hard-headed she is, how willing she is to cut off her nose to spite her face. Notice she puts the problem on YOU, she will respect your (BAD) decision. If you TRULY (as if you are playing a game, like she is - and she's willing to up the ante) want separate, it is possible but all bad for you - she'll get a job, you get your own place, sheu can take the kids away from you and you can visit the kids every so often, or you can deploy. Kind of tempting to tell her to deploy. Except you might be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

QUESTION: Do you think she is escalating it, like it's a game of poker? Before this, when was the last time she had to admit wrongdoing? 



couldhavebeenworse said:


> If you want to separate in the house, i would like you to *write a list of expectations and rules*.* I would also encourage you to consider that *it wouldn't be fair to* expect *me* to have all of the stress and responsibility of a wife with no benefit. (I.e. I would expect that *you take care of your own things*- laundry, lunch, etc and also split things more 50/50 in the hours you are at home.)


1-Her and her obsession about rules.
2-You will be punished for making her admit wrongdoing.
3-"It wouldn't be fair to ... me." Not much about what's fair to you.

ANOTHER QUESTION: She was complaining about you to another man. Since then, has she complained to you about anything? The same stuff you read in her messages? 

Not always, but frequently, men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Without communication, it could fester.

Have you asked her about why she doesn't complain to you directly? And if she has any other complaints? Try to keep an open mind for legitimate complaints. If you were to ask her to rate your marriage, on a scale of 0-10, what do you think she'd say? What would you say? And what would be the biggest positive and negative factors for each of you? I'd be curious how close you are with that.

I don't see you divorcing over her affair. Or even her lack of remorse over her affairs. If that is true, don't make things worse. If you don't know what to do, maybe you should do nothing for a few days, let it sit for a few days, then revisit it. Let her know all of the problems and hurts you have, and let her stew on that. What is your reasoning for the separation? How does that further your goals?

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen a person willing to ratchet up to divorce rather than back down. Do you think she would be willing to go that far? If you told her to deploy, do you think she would do actually do it?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

OP how are you doing?


----------



## DjDjani

My good man, insist on polygraph, you will see then that your wife won't do it, because she had PA with that guy. All evidence is right there, she went to his place alone in the night. She texted him 15 messages on your anniversary!! Oh they had a PA that is for sure. Tell her that you need her to take a polygraph because you don't believe that they didn't have had sex, and if she us telling a truth, then you can move on. You will see then that she will say hell no for polygraph!!! And that will be your ultimate proof that she is a cheater. But you know that already, but you are laying your self because you are afraid yo take action and act like a man with dignity and self a stream.


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## Dyokemm

I think OP did not like having others point out the obvious plot holes in his WW’s stores about military OM....

He is pretty clearly in full rugsweep mode, refusing to even question her truthfulness about these inconsistencies or confront her on her, frankly, extremely poor attitude towards his reactions to her infidelity.

I will be surprised if he comes back at this point.


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## Marc878

Like a lot he can't make a decision to get out of Infidelty so he'll keep himself bound in this


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## Taxman

I am patently sick of masturbation being compared with affairs. Although I do not use it, porn is simply visual image to quickly gain relief from an actual physical stressor. Once another living breathing person is involved, then it is betrayal. I am sick of cheaters guilting their betrayed spouse for something that little children do. (Ask any child psych)

I had a client whose wife had an affair. She had the nerve to say that he jerked off to porn, and she felt she was even. He got up, and smashed the computer. Then he said to her, now I am going over to loverboys hose and smash him. She physically attacked him. So after police are called and she gets an assault charge, he visits the AP. Tells the AP’s wife in his presence. AP bolts. His wife sees an attorney the next day.

My client visits his STBX in jail and lays it all on the line. Affairs are not equivalent to masturbation. A magazine or video is not a relationship. But, since the computer is smashed, he said, he smashed the AP’s life. His wife is divorcing. He failed to show for work, and was discharged. All friends and family know. Too bad so sad.

My client is now divorced, and he made his now ex aware that he needed release, because she was giving it all away to someone else. Now she has no husband, no lover, and a crimInal record (she begged him to drop the charges, as her employment depended on her ability to be bonded, which is impossible with a record) I hear she is waitressing.


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## MAJDEATH

I am jaded, but you have to admit rhe strong possibility that she is not being very forthcoming with her explanations. TT, gaslighting and blame shifting are normal human responses when caught in a difficult situation. And the fog can be thick!

My W invited me to a new years eve party at a male co-workers house in the basement. It was a bunch of couples. I was having fun, eating, drinking and playing cards with some folks. W played cards but then went to be the dj and keep the tunes playing. After awhile I lost track of her in the crowd.
I went to use the bathroom but didn't see her anywhere. I also noticed that the host was not around his W. So I started looking.

Finally found her (and him) in an upstairs room, sitting close with weird looks on their faces. We left. For years she refused to admit that anything happened, other than "he wanted to show me a new guitar he purchased. We were just work friends. We had a common interest in music. He was asking me for marital advice." - lol

15 years later she finally told me the truth (maybe). He had her shirt off and was fingerbanging her under her pants when they heard me on the stairs. They had been lovers for the previous 6 months while I was deployed and they like the risque factor of almost getting caught. They quickly recovered before I opened the door.

She always denied anything when it would come up over the years. She said I was drunk and was seeing something that wasn't there. I was overreacting, I was jealous that she made friends when I was deployed. She was helping him with a difficult marriage and job stress. He is a nice guy and helped her with fixing things around the house while I was gone, so I should thank him.


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## DjDjani

He will never come back. He is too afraid of the truth.


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## 55Z

OP how are you and your wife doing? And family?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

To use a line from one of my favorite movies Oh Brother Where Art Though.....he done R..U..N..N..O..F..T. He done runt off


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## couldhavebeenworse

I have been lurking in here over the months, just never posting.

We are doing fine. We did MC, just wrapped up. We sold the corvette, she had written "hi, OM" on and to take a picture to send to him. (he had got mad that she wrote "hi" on his truck.) We are moving to another state and we both hope to have a fresh start in a new house and new town with no baggage attached. 

I truly believe she met with a player and survived. I think he lost interest and stopped all contact when she wasn't giving him what he wanted. I have been monitoring texts/calls/fb/Instagram and nothing has come up. 

Throughout MC, she maintained that she had let boundaries slip, and liked the attention she was getting. However, she also thought this guy needed help and it was her duty to not abandon him. She says that is the main reason she hung out with him, though again, she didn't mind the attention. She didn't take is little innuendo comments seriously, and maintains that she never once, even for a second, considered anything physical with him. She maintains the only physical contact they had was a side hug and when he put his hand on her back while sitting at the restaraunt (as he walked past) She now agrees that it is not, in fact her job to be emotional support to guys. She wrote a pretty good letter to the FB guy, saying how wrong it was for her to take away from me and from his wife. No further contact, obviously. 

We went to a banquet in April at her unit and OM was there. She did not tell me for fear I would confront. I let her know I did not like that decision, that I should have been allowed to stay or go based on my own feelings. 

She ran into him a few drill weekends ago and he awkwardly nodded at her and she ignored him. Once we move out of state she will be in a new unit, hopefully wiser and with more commitment to our tight boundaries. 

I did not ever go through her old phone to look at messages. I still may. I tried the free trial of phone doctor but it wanted be to jailbreak the phone or something. I decided to not run it on my work's equipment. I did read through all of the FB stuff (from OM2, FB Dude), nothing sexual. A few things that could have been considered flirty on his part, nothing on my wife's part. They did have two long phone calls that one drill weekend that he was trying(?) to get her to skip and come to the party in his home town. One on the drive in and one on the drive out. Nothing interesting in all the google history I went through. 

Part of me wonders if anything more did happen, but I strongly suspect not. I plan on asking her every so often, because she would have a hard time continually lying. She still maintains the only time she directly lied was when she was out with OM1 and suicide boy, and I asked if she was with suicide boy, she said no.


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## sokillme

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I have been lurking in here over the months, just never posting.
> 
> We are doing fine. We did MC, just wrapped up. We sold the corvette, she had written "hi, OM" on and to take a picture to send to him. (he had got mad that she wrote "hi" on his truck.) We are moving to another state and we both hope to have a fresh start in a new house and new town with no baggage attached.
> 
> I truly believe she met with a player and survived. I think he lost interest and stopped all contact when she wasn't giving him what he wanted. I have been monitoring texts/calls/fb/Instagram and nothing has come up.
> 
> Throughout MC, she maintained that she had let boundaries slip, and liked the attention she was getting. However, she also thought this guy needed help and it was her duty to not abandon him. She says that is the main reason she hung out with him, though again, she didn't mind the attention. She didn't take is little innuendo comments seriously, and maintains that she never once, even for a second, considered anything physical with him. She maintains the only physical contact they had was a side hug and when he put his hand on her back while sitting at the restaraunt (as he walked past) She now agrees that it is not, in fact her job to be emotional support to guys. She wrote a pretty good letter to the FB guy, saying how wrong it was for her to take away from me and from his wife. No further contact, obviously.
> 
> We went to a banquet in April at her unit and OM was there. She did not tell me for fear I would confront. I let her know I did not like that decision, that I should have been allowed to stay or go based on my own feelings.
> 
> She ran into him a few drill weekends ago and he awkwardly nodded at her and she ignored him. Once we move out of state she will be in a new unit, hopefully wiser and with more commitment to our tight boundaries.
> 
> I did not ever go through her old phone to look at messages. I still may. I tried the free trial of phone doctor but it wanted be to jailbreak the phone or something. I decided to not run it on my work's equipment. I did read through all of the FB stuff (from OM2, FB Dude), nothing sexual. A few things that could have been considered flirty on his part, nothing on my wife's part. They did have two long phone calls that one drill weekend that he was trying(?) to get her to skip and come to the party in his home town. One on the drive in and one on the drive out. Nothing interesting in all the google history I went through.
> 
> Part of me wonders if anything more did happen, but I strongly suspect not. I plan on asking her every so often, because she would have a hard time continually lying. She still maintains the only time she directly lied was when she was out with OM1 and suicide boy, and I asked if she was with suicide boy, she said no.


Seems like you are doing your best to take away the responsibly of the whole thing from your wife as much as possible. I wonder if that his the MO in your relationship. Thing is guys who treat their wives like children always get wives who behave and act out like children. Your wife is a serial cheater, they usually don't get better. And they never get better unless they admit that is what they are. She does this and acts like this because she wants to and likes to. 

Finally if you read on here long enough you will see that the pattern of women like your wife is that eventually she will slip up and you will find out this has been going on far longer then you were willing to admit. It may even be at the point she is leaving you for another guy. I know you probably think I am a **** for even saying this, but if you read enough you just see that this stuff is predictable rain in spring. 

I wonder if you are posting this because deep down you know I am right and you are having doubts. I mean if you were confident in your decision why even come back to this site? 

I am afraid you might find out that even moving away she is the baggage. I wish you good luck though.


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## [email protected]

How about that! The miraculous MC has worked its wonders again. Seems like I heard that somewhere before.
If I didn't say before, I'll do it now: Women in the military are notorious for cheating. And, sorry to say, she'll do it again. She's learned all the right responses.


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## MAJDEATH

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I have been lurking in here over the months, just never posting.
> 
> We are doing fine. We did MC, just wrapped up. We sold the corvette, she had written "hi, OM" on and to take a picture to send to him. (he had got mad that she wrote "hi" on his truck.) We are moving to another state and we both hope to have a fresh start in a new house and new town with no baggage attached.
> 
> I truly believe she met with a player and survived. I think he lost interest and stopped all contact when she wasn't giving him what he wanted. I have been monitoring texts/calls/fb/Instagram and nothing has come up.
> 
> Throughout MC, she maintained that she had let boundaries slip, and liked the attention she was getting. However, she also thought this guy needed help and it was her duty to not abandon him. She says that is the main reason she hung out with him, though again, she didn't mind the attention. She didn't take is little innuendo comments seriously, and maintains that she never once, even for a second, considered anything physical with him. She maintains the only physical contact they had was a side hug and when he put his hand on her back while sitting at the restaraunt (as he walked past) She now agrees that it is not, in fact her job to be emotional support to guys. She wrote a pretty good letter to the FB guy, saying how wrong it was for her to take away from me and from his wife. No further contact, obviously.
> 
> We went to a banquet in April at her unit and OM was there. She did not tell me for fear I would confront. I let her know I did not like that decision, that I should have been allowed to stay or go based on my own feelings.
> 
> She ran into him a few drill weekends ago and he awkwardly nodded at her and she ignored him. Once we move out of state she will be in a new unit, hopefully wiser and with more commitment to our tight boundaries.
> 
> I did not ever go through her old phone to look at messages. I still may. I tried the free trial of phone doctor but it wanted be to jailbreak the phone or something. I decided to not run it on my work's equipment. I did read through all of the FB stuff (from OM2, FB Dude), nothing sexual. A few things that could have been considered flirty on his part, nothing on my wife's part. They did have two long phone calls that one drill weekend that he was trying(?) to get her to skip and come to the party in his home town. One on the drive in and one on the drive out. Nothing interesting in all the google history I went through.
> 
> Part of me wonders if anything more did happen, but I strongly suspect not. I plan on asking her every so often, because she would have a hard time continually lying. She still maintains the only time she directly lied was when she was out with OM1 and suicide boy, and I asked if she was with suicide boy, she said no.


Thanks for the update. I was wondering how it turned out. The move might be beneficial as long as your W has made some changes in the underlying behavior. I for one understand that some men are dogs and will try to pick-up women, even married ones. But my limited research on "players" or "pick-up artists" (PUA) is that they are not really good at landing women in general. They are good at reading initial signs/responses and determining if their is potential to continue. And this is the part that your W needs to do a better job at. Hopefully you talked about it in counseling. "Piss-off jerk" is an acceptable response in my book if some PUA approaches and tries to ask personal questions. He will move on to other targets.


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## MAJDEATH

sokillme said:


> Seems like you are doing your best to take away the responsibly of the whole thing from your wife as much as possible. I wonder if that his the MO in your relationship. Thing is guys who treat their wives like children always get wives who behave and act out like children. Your wife is a serial cheater, they usually don't get better. And they never get better unless they admit that is what they are. She does this and acts like this because she wants to and likes to.
> 
> Finally if you read on here long enough you will see that the pattern of women like your wife is that eventually she will slip up and you will find out this has been going on far longer then you were willing to admit. It may even be at the point she is leaving you for another guy. I know you probably think I am a **** for even saying this, but if you read enough you just see that this stuff is predictable rain in spring.
> 
> I wonder if you are posting this because deep down you know I am right and you are having doubts. I mean if you were confident in your decision why even come back to this site?
> 
> I am afraid you might find out that even moving away she is the baggage. I wish you good luck though.


Great, another "your W is a serial cheater and will never change" response from TAM. Maybe she will and maybe she won't.

And posting doesn't mean you have doubts or aren't serious. Not sure where you got that from (when an OP gives an update). I don't think OP is trying to convince us he is right or justified.


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## TDSC60

couldhavebeenworse said:


> letter about attractive dude at training:
> 
> Dear BH,
> 
> *No, I am not happy with our marriage,* but it's been worse. There is not another soul on this Earth that I would even consider spending my life with. Everyone has baggage and issues and I am grateful to have the ones we have and have you to carry that cross with.


I hope you have addressed this issue.


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## couldhavebeenworse

We'll see. 

I don't doubt it would have led to PA if it had gone on. That seems to be the theme. Girl gets attention, likes it, builds an emotional connection, and the sex follows as she is hooked in. 

He lost interest, she was not even close to doing anything physical, and it ended without further incident. I don't have any reason to doubt it was anything more that what she said. She got pulled into going out with him because he played her and made her feel guilty for not "hanging out" with him when he was depressed, convincing her they weren't doing anything wrong. It doesn't help that many other married people hang out with other than their spouses on drill weekends. She was surprised how easily her boundaries fell, but never once wanted anything more than his friendship and whatever little buzz she got from his attention. She never took any "sexual" comments he made all that seriously and never felt in danger if him making an actual move on her. I had asked her what she would have done if he tried to kiss her, and she said she never once thought about it because she never once felt there was any danger of that. 

As for the FB dude, I think it was a follow up to OM1. The difference is she had no attraction to him, and they never saw each other. If he had been someone she drilled with, or a local guy, I could see that going the same route as OM1. But, after 2 years of talking through messenger, there was never any flirting or inappropriate comments. I don't like the fact she was talking to him, of course. She has said it was wrong and apologized to him and me, and immediately cut off all contact when all of this first broke. 

To me, bottom line is she was out of the work force for 15 years, didn't know how to handle a situation like she found herself in, and had a life lesson. I think she has learned and realizes where those mistakes can lead. Hopefully. she won't repeat the mistake.

As for me, there is not one part of me that thinks I should divorce her for what she did. If the whole incident is as how I understand it, it wasn't all that serious. OM1 was already over and nothing happened, and FB dude was never inappropriate and she easily cut contact. 

If things change in the future or she starts acting cold, I will be ready. I have learned a ton from other's experience on here.


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## She'sStillGotIt

couldhavebeenworse said:


> I truly believe she met with a player and survived.


I guess she's an *innocent* just like Dorothy was in Oz - lions and tigers and bears, oh my! 0

Thank *goodness *your wife survived her brush with a _player _who almost got her in his talons and flew her off to his evil castle to do his bidding! Miraculously, good fortune prevailed and she's safe and sound at home where she belongs! 

Good lord.


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## couldhavebeenworse

the other day at drill a few of them were deciding on where to go to lunch, my wife and another service member voted to got to spot A. the other service member said they could just go by themselves. My wife said "it would be weird to go to lunch with just you." he said "why?" She said, "its not that I don't like you, but it would be weird with just us." He said "it wouldn't be weird, neither of us brought lunch so we can just go get lunch." My wife said, "yeah but I am married, what would I tell my husband." He said "just don't tell him, no big deal." My wife said "that's not how we do it." Then another person standing there backed her up. He said "yeah, it would be weird. when I think about it, I have not gone to lunch with another woman who wasn't my GF or (now) my wife." 

Its just the way culture is. Its no big deal to hang out with members of the opposite sex, at least the younger generation. She has said many times how dude x hangs out with girl y and they are both married to other people. Doesn't mean they are cheating. Doesn't mean its a good idea, either. 

peace.


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## couldhavebeenworse

and I never said she was innocent. Naïve, yes, not innocent. She never said she was innocent, that's why she told me about it. She knows what she did was wrong, and I am still pissed about almost a year after finding out and years after it happened. If it happens again, I'm ready.


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## frigginlost

couldhavebeenworse said:


> the other day at drill a few of them were deciding on where to go to lunch, my wife and another service member voted to got to spot A. the other service member said they could just go by themselves. My wife said *"it would be weird to go to lunch with just you."* he said "why?" She said, "its not that I don't like you, but it would be weird with just us." He said "it wouldn't be weird, neither of us brought lunch so we can just go get lunch." My wife said, "yeah but I am married, what would I tell my husband." He said "just don't tell him, no big deal." My wife said "that's not how we do it." Then another person standing there backed her up. He said "yeah, it would be weird. when I think about it, I have not gone to lunch with another woman who wasn't my GF or (now) my wife."
> 
> Its just the way culture is. Its no big deal to hang out with members of the opposite sex, at least the younger generation. She has said many times how dude x hangs out with girl y and they are both married to other people. Doesn't mean they are cheating. Doesn't mean its a good idea, either.
> 
> peace.


I'm sorry to say, but your wife is going to cheat on you again.

The above is not an answer of "no". It's a form of manipulation for her to see where the other persons head is at. She does not have the ability to say no. 

You're thinking because she tells you what is said, everything is fine. The problem is that you're not hearing what she is saying...


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## Decorum

couldhavebeenworse said:


> and I never said she was innocent. Naïve, yes, not innocent. She never said she was innocent, that's why she told me about it. She knows what she did was wrong, and I am still pissed about almost a year after finding out and years after it happened. If it happens again, I'm ready.


I'm not going to make any friends here, but I think I understand where your wife is comming from.

"But for the grace of God..."

She had a chance to see from a more distant perspective the devastation, and disaster, that a further crossing of boundaries would have resulted in.

She has enough of a moral compass to never want to get to that point.

She needs to learn in her faith to trust YOU, to trust that (in addition to her own self-direction) God will also lead and protect her through you.

That means confiding in you, and taking your counsel to heart.

She will give up some of her independence voluntarily in order to trust you (and God) in this way, but she is called to do that very thing.

You need to learn to speak her language of faith.

Read 1Peter 3:5-6 in context with her, and have this discussion. Ask her how she can fulfill this role in a practical way in your marriage.

It would be good for you to give some spiritual leadership in your marriage.

It will open up a new dimension in your relationship.


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## ButtPunch

frigginlost said:


> I'm sorry to say, but your wife is going to cheat on you again.
> 
> The above is not an answer of "no". It's a form of manipulation for her to see where the other persons head is at. She does not have the ability to say no.
> 
> You're thinking because she tells you what is said, everything is fine. The problem is that you're not hearing what she is saying...


I don't know man.....that's a long reach imo


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## TRy

MAJDEATH said:


> "players" or "pick-up artists" (PUA) is that they are not really good at landing women in general. They are good at reading initial signs/responses and determining if their is potential to continue.


 You are spot on when you say that "players" and "pick-up artists" "are not really good at landing women in general", but are insead "good at reading initial signs/responses and determining if their is potential to continue". All they do is give a woman some form of attention. If she makes it clear to him that likes the attention, he takes it from there with the woman's complete encouragement. It takes 2 cheaters to cheat.


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## TRy

couldhavebeenworse said:


> She maintains the only physical contact they had was a side hug and when he put his hand on her back while sitting at the restaurant (as he walked past)


 A major study showed that most affairs go completely undetected, that cheaters are only caught by their spouse in the act of physically cheating 3% of the time, and that in only 7% of the time does a cheater admit to cheating (this includes the 3%) even when confronted with strong evidence. Since you have already caught your wife lying, you know that her word cannot be trusted. Add to this that you know that she has secretly spent time with these other men that she did not tell you about, and the odds are very high that she is not telling you the full truth about just how physically intimate she has been with these other men. 

News flash, cheaters do not usually text or email about how physically intimate they have been in open channels. For conversation such as this, they prefer saying it over the phone, using apps such as SnapChat, using secret email accounts, or using a burner phone; all of which you would have no ability to check on.


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## [email protected]

Well, as I said, or implied at least, she's learned all the right answers. If I were betting, I'd bet she's still at it.


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## jsmart

It sometimes amazes me what lengths some BHs go to delude themselves that their WW is somehow an innocent victim. Taking away agency from their wife, allows him to point their anger else where. 

This is so obviously a serial cheating WW yet the BH holds on to the self delusion that she was somehow naively involved in 2 EAs. Going to OMs house to watch a movie? Sitting on different couches? Wow.

I wonder what his WW thinks to herself as she sees her BH eating that up?


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## BluesPower

jsmart said:


> It sometimes amazes me what lengths some BHs go to delude themselves that their WW is somehow an innocent victim. Taking away agency from their wife, allows him to point their anger else where.
> 
> This is so obviously a serial cheating WW yet the BH holds on to the self delusion that she was somehow naively involved in 2 EAs. Going to OMs house to watch a movie? Sitting on different couches? Wow.
> 
> I wonder what his WW thinks to herself as she sees her BH eating that up?


She is laughing her ass off and thinking that he is a stupid fool. 

That is what she is thinking and doing, after she gets her brains ****ed out by whoever she is banging at the time. I bet she just loves drill weekends!!!!!!!


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## MAJDEATH

couldhavebeenworse said:


> and I never said she was innocent. Naïve, yes, not innocent. She never said she was innocent, that's why she told me about it. She knows what she did was wrong, and I am still pissed about almost a year after finding out and years after it happened. If it happens again, I'm ready.


Two quotes come to mind:

(1) Annie from Bull Durham- "You did not get lured. Women never get lured. They're too strong and powerful for that. Now say it -- I didn't get lured and I will take responsibility for my actions".

(2) Former Army General - "Women cannot be manipulated by men. They have half the money and all the *****".


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## sokillme

I find it interesting that guys who think their wives are powerless or oblivious to the so called "Player" are always the kind of guy's whose wives end up cheating with players. 

It's always the same. Treat your spouse like a child and you get a spouse who acts like one. This is because spouses who act like children end up with mates who will treat them like their parents. They can't attract peers because peers will quickly tire of their bull**** way before there is a chance of marriage.

I'm just telling you if my wife started pulling some of the crap that happened on this tread. Spending time counseling some depressed guy her life would be SO uncomfortable that she would either divorce me or never talk to this guy again. There would not even be a chance for this to stand. Thing is she wouldn't dare, because she knows. Same goes for if I did it, and rightfully so. I LIKE IT THAT WAY. She better damn sure be jelous and put my ass in my place.


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## Beach123

Your username and the title of this thread show everything we need to know.

You will put up with way too much crap from her.

And

You minimize her bad behavior to make it appear to look more innocent than it is.

She doesn't need to make excuses - you are making them all FOR HER.

Your expectations of her are WAY too low...she's performing to your very low standards.


You've also made her too comfortable being an a$$ to you - so expect more of the same.


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## Tell me more lies

Sounds like the old "geographical cure". Move away and leave all those nasty problems behind! Just one small problem with this, we move with ourselves, and all our character flaws come with us. If she had this behavior there, she will have it at the new residence, but I guess you can always move again, and again and again!


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## TDSC60

Tell me more lies said:


> Sounds like the old "geographical cure". Move away and leave all those nasty problems behind! Just one small problem with this, we move with ourselves, and all our character flaws come with us. If she had this behavior there, she will have it at the new residence, but I guess you can always move again, and again and again!


Running away solves nothing. Except, of course, if you leave her where she is and you move away.


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## SunCMars

TDSC60 said:


> Running away solves nothing. Except, of course, if you leave her where she is and you move away.


Yes, and where you also cut off all communication.

When words travel by wire, or wirelessly, so go the strings that do attach, do tie one down.

Detach, '180' full speed ahead.

Freedom is being tie-down free.

Easy said....hard to implement.


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