# Seperated And Confused



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

My wife and I have been together for 19 years and married for 17 and have a 13 year old son. She left a month ago and all she said was she needs space. She left because a few years ago I became disabled from genetic back and hip problems but was denied disability (big surprise in Calif...NOT!). I was only able to work a part time job so she had to pay for most of the bills and exspenses. She is also unhappy living in our condo and has wanted to move for a long time. She doesn't understand the physical pain I go through everyday because she has never even thrown her back out or experienced that type of pain in her life. She also doesn't understand that when you own property it is that simple to just pickup and move. I have gotten full time work now and it is very difficult to make it through the day but I am willing to do it for her and my son. When I asked her to marry me and she said yes I was making a promise to her that I would take care of her and provide for her but failed along the way. I should have just dealt with my physical pain and continued to work full time to honor the promise I made to her. She still will not talk to me or have any contact other then a phone call I made to her a week ago. I asked her to go to counseling with me after she has some time but will not say yes or no. During the whole conversation I was very calm and caring and told her to take all the time she needs. She however still talked to me in a very angry voice and kept trying to insult me or bring up issues that had nothing to do with what we were discussing. I have made all the changes she wanted but still it seems it is not enough. It will be our 18th anniversary this month on july 25 and I am hoping she will at least talk to me by then. I wrote her a letter taking the blame for everything and how sorry I was that I caused her so much pain. I told her I understand her being angry with me as I deserve it but wish that we could at least talk at this point. I also said I wasn’t asking her to move back home and she could stay where she was as long as she needs but again we need to start talking and helping each other heal and get through this. I said I wouldn’t contact her anymore and will wait for her to make contact but to please think about making our anniversary our first point of contact so that we could have 2 anniversaies every year, the original one and then the new one which was the start of our new lives together and so starting next year it would be our 19th anniversary and also our 1 year anniversay of our new lives. Of course she still has not called or texted or contacted me in any way. This has been so painful because she is my life. She also took my son who is also angry and won’t talk to me either. It is just so hard sitting in limbo everyday not knowing what is going to happen. She hasn’t said she’s leaving me but she hasn’t said she’s not, she hasn’t said anything. I just can’t understand her anger level still being that bad a month later having barely any contact with me and not seeing each other for that month. In our 19 years together we have never been apart longer then 2 days at time. It gets harder and harder to get through each day and I don’t know how I’m going to make it through this month not even knowing if she’ll even speak to me on our special day. I would feel less afraid and hurt and would be able to get my focus back if she would just talk to me even if it was just once or twice a week.


----------



## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I'm sorry you are here honey. I can hear the pain and sadness in your words.

Just so I am clear, the reason she left you is because of your back problems??? What else was wrong in your marriage? What things has she been telling you for a long time that were making her unhappy? Do you have any idea why your son is unhappy with you?

I just don't know how to reply, because if she has left you, is ignoring you and has soured your son against you because you have a bad back then she is a piece of sh!t. Has she just decided to dump the "in sickness and in health" part of your vows? Is she super materialistic?

Please give us more info so we can better help you. You obviously love her, and want to make your marriage works (as do most of us on this forum) but right now she is not sounding very lovable.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

She left because of my lack of finding full time employment because of my back and hip issues causeing her to have to shoulder most of the financial exspenses. Also because she was unhappy living in the condo we own and because I was only working part time could not move to a new place. As I said she has never experienced the type of pain I go through everyday. If a person has never had that kind of pain they truly cannot understand what it is like and how it is a pain that is like no other but I have learned to live with it over the years and deal with it. I have gone to doctors who were shocked at how I was able to even stand let alone get to their office by myself.

Yes I love her more then life itself and I cry several times a day because I miss her so much and am afraid she will leave me for good.



Spicy said:


> I'm sorry you are here honey. I can hear the pain and sadness in your words.
> 
> Just so I am clear, the reason she left you is because of your back problems??? What else was wrong in your marriage? What things has she been telling you for a long time that were making her unhappy? Do you have any idea why your son is unhappy with you?
> 
> .


One of the main problems we have always had in our marriage is her lack of communication. She would not talk about things that bothered her and now she is continuing to do the same thing that has us where we are today. I have always talked to her when something was bothering me but she did not. I just wish she would have sat me down and talked to me so we could have fixed this a long time ago.

Edit: Forgot to mention she is living at her Uncle's house who helped raise her when her mother abandoned her when she was a baby. He has never liked me from day one because I am a different religon then they are. I am afraid that he is poisoning her mind against me more and more each day making it all that harder to reconcile. I also think he is responsible for my son being angry as we were very close his whole life and turned on me overnight. I just wish she would go some where else but she is comfortable there because she grew up in that house.


----------



## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Fred Oppous said:


> My wife and I have been together for 19 years and married for 17 and have a 13 year old son. She left a month ago and all she said was she needs space. She left because a few years ago I became disabled from genetic back and hip problems but was denied disability (big surprise in Calif...NOT!). I was only able to work a part time job so she had to pay for most of the bills and exspenses. She is also unhappy living in our condo and has wanted to move for a long time. She doesn't understand the physical pain I go through everyday because she has never even thrown her back out or experienced that type of pain in her life. She also doesn't understand that when you own property it is that simple to just pickup and move. I have gotten full time work now and it is very difficult to make it through the day but I am willing to do it for her and my son. When I asked her to marry me and she said yes I was making a promise to her that I would take care of her and provide for her but failed along the way. I should have just dealt with my physical pain and continued to work full time to honor the promise I made to her.


It seems that easy, doesn't it? I don't know the full extent to your medical problems, but I can totally sympathize as I suffered from severe hip impingement. I was 22 and unable to walk. I had to prove the pain to myself every single day, otherwise my pride would interfere. Were you really able to work?


> She still will not talk to me or have any contact other then a phone call I made to her a week ago. I asked her to go to counseling with me after she has some time but will not say yes or no.


What are the relationship problems outside of your medical issues?



> During the whole conversation I was very calm and caring and told her to take all the time she needs.


Good.



> She however still talked to me in a very angry voice and kept trying to insult me or bring up issues that had nothing to do with what we were discussing.


Her pride is resisting reconciliation.



> I have made all the changes she wanted but still it seems it is not enough.


You changed the surface issues. What are the underlying issues? I am not sure you can answer that.


> It will be our 18th anniversary this month on july 25 and I am hoping she will at least talk to me by then. I wrote her a letter taking the blame for everything and how sorry I was that I caused her so much pain.


You feel that if you become a pin doll, she will give up the assault. Instead, it is more likely to persist. You have shown weakness, and she needs your strength. This is when you have to honor the relationship, and not feed her pride. Relationships don't work if partners are victims.


> I told her I understand her being angry with me as I deserve it but wish that we could at least talk at this point. I also said I wasn’t asking her to move back home and she could stay where she was as long as she needs but again we need to start talking and helping each other heal and get through this.


This can come off as needy and forceful. She might also feel that she bears the burden of your sadness.



> I said I wouldn’t contact her anymore and will wait for her to make contact but to please think about making our anniversary our first point of contact so that we could have 2 anniversaies every year, the original one and then the new one which was the start of our new lives together and so starting next year it would be our 19th anniversary and also our 1 year anniversay of our new lives.


You have to keep contacting her. Again, she will likely feel an additional burden on her shoulders. There is another issue, that I'll address at the end.


> Of course she still has not called or texted or contacted me in any way. This has been so painful because she is my life. She also took my son who is also angry and won’t talk to me either. It is just so hard sitting in limbo everyday not knowing what is going to happen. She hasn’t said she’s leaving me but she hasn’t said she’s not, she hasn’t said anything. I just can’t understand her anger level still being that bad a month later having barely any contact with me and not seeing each other for that month. In our 19 years together we have never been apart longer then 2 days at time. It gets harder and harder to get through each day and I don’t know how I’m going to make it through this month not even knowing if she’ll even speak to me on our special day. I would feel less afraid and hurt and would be able to get my focus back if she would just talk to me even if it was just once or twice a week.


Reconciliation is a very tried-and-true process, in my opinion. Relationships work under very specific conditions. They fail under very specific conditions. Interestingly, we are very often guided to take actions that guarantee failure. When we try to navigate our partner's emotional minefield, we don't do service to the relationship. I am telling you that you will have to do and say things that are not met with instant gratification. This is the case, whether partners are separated or not.

So how do you reconcile? Well, it isn't going to happen overnight. Specifically, you need go in under the radar. As I stated above, it is obvious that she is resisting any overt attempts to reconcile the relationship. You need to attempt to make contact with her, at least once per week. Since she is in low-contact mode, try 1-way communications. These are texts or voicemails that she is not expected to respond to. If she responds, that is great, but it is not the point. You are showing consistency and care. It gently pulls at her heart strings.

Beyond that, work very hard on improving yourself, without conditions. You didn't express it in this post, but I can imagine there were plenty if arguments that are the real issue. I can also imagine that a lot of negativity was exhibited, party due to your physical pain. All you can do is work on yourself, and increase your impulse control. There is no way to work on the relationship, when partners are disconnected. So it is strongly advised to not push so hard for counseling. Most likely, the problem was no/bad communication, so only good communication can repair the relationship.

Also, let her say anything she wants to you. I am not telling you to become the victim. If you can just listen to her, you can figure out what is bothing her. If you take it personally, she might not ever get it out. Also, women just need to be heard and understood.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

This is the exact words from the letter I sent

I don’t blame you for being angry with me I deserve it for the pain you have suffered. I can never take that away but I can do everything possible to ensure it never happens again if I am lucky enough and you let an old fool like me show you just how happy we can be again.

She also said that I stopped involving myself in her life. This all came about several years ago because she did not get along with my sister and because of that she disrespected my father and his girlfriend. For a 2 year period of time she refused to go to anything that had to do with my side of the family and I had to take my son go without her. During that same 2 years I continued to go to all events with her side of the family but then decided that was not right. So I did as she did and told her that I would no longer go see her family until she would start seeing my family again.

She would always go running around on the weekends with our son such as shopping and to see her Uncle because she hated the condo so much she could not stay there and just take it easy for the day but had to "Get Out" for the day. Sometimes I could not go places with her because of my back and hips and this then turned into me being excluded from her life. I would wake up on Saturday and Sunday mornings to an empty house not knowing where they went or when they would be back. They would be gone the entire day and night getting home just 10-15 minutes before their bedtime. They would walk in and then it was time to get ready for bed cause they had a long day and were tired. For at least the last year I sat home alone and hungry while they were doing whatever and had dinner without me. I would end up having a turkey or bologna sandwich after they went to bed and can't tell you how sick I am of turkey and bolonga sandwiches. I was never told what their plans were and was not asked anymore if I wanted to come along.

She claimed that my son was angry with me because he didn't have a father anymore. I said thats nonesense as I have not changed and am still the same father I've been for the last 13 years of his life. He just turned on me overnight and would just stare at me like I was an axe murder or something. I always picked him up from school and had done so since he was in pre-school. One day everything was normal and the very next day I picked him up he didn't say a word the whole way home. Then when we got home and he would just give me that look and then grab the phone and go outside. At first I thought he was calling one of his friends and knew that kids his age didn't want mom and dad hearing what they talked about. But this same pattern happened everyday and so I went online and checked the call history to see if indeed it was a friend he was calling. It turned out that he was calling his mom and his grand uncle everyday and not a friend. I told my wife what he was doing and said I don't have a problem with who he was calling but that it was suspious that he went outside everytime to do so. She didn't think much of it and just said he liked going outside. I said it is suspious because he would always go outside and if he had nothing to hide he would sometimes call from inside. She thought I was being a jerk accusing him of hiding something and should just feel the same as her that he just likes going outside. She would defend him on anything and I was always the ahole for accusing him of doing something wrong. He would also bring the phone back in and then go right back outside and it became apparent that he not only didn't want to be in the same room as me but didn't want to be in the same house as me. This all started just after he started spending more time at his uncle's house. What I think is the uncle turned him against me and then used that to manipulated my wife into thinking I was a bad dad which then ended in the separation. That is why I wish I could get her to go stay some where else because I think that she starts to cool down and then her uncle just winds her right back up.

My back and hip issues are exstensive and I got most of them from my mom. I have a crooked sacrum (the triangular bone at the end of the spine by the pelvis) which causes crooked hips. I also have scoliosis which is pretty extreme but not enough that I have to wear a brace. In my mid back there is a section that comes out solid white in x-rays which is about 6-7 vertebrate long because all the cartilage is gone and non exsistent so the discs are bone on bone with no cushion. I have a protruding disc in my lumbar along with parts of my neck that the cartilage is deteriorated but not compltely gone like my back. And yes I work. It is very painful everyday but as I said it is something you learn to live with over the years.

Again though everything she has told me the couple times we talked and what her family has told me it was mainly due to my lack of finding full time work and supporting the family. They said "she should not have to work her fingers to the bone and pay for most of everything". Also her uncle accused me of causing my son emotional abuse and what a shame it was that he had to sit outside and wait for his mother to get home. What he doesn't realize is I didn't yell at him or throw him out of the house or anything like that. It was my sons decision to do that. I would bring him home from school and he would walk in, put down his backpack, grab the phone and go outside. But of course he only hears what my wife tells him and not the whole story. That is another problem. No one on her side of the family will hear me out and has passed judgement soley on her side of the story. She is known to manipulate people by only telling carefully chosen parts of an issue to make her look like such a caring and wonderful wife and what a jerk I am for treating her badly. She seems to thrive on having people feel sorry for her even when they have been manipulated to do so.

I cannot keep contacting her because I have been told by many that she was getting even more annoyed with me the few times I did and that I was pushing her farther away which I do not want to do.

I did not say things that were meant for instant gradification. I did the oppisite and told her I understand what she is going through and to take all the time she needs. Our anniversary has always been a very important day to both of us and was trying to be romantic but still understanding her needs. Again here is that part of the letter:

_Next month on July 25 it will be our 17th anniversary. I would like you to think about that we both agree that will be the anniversary of our new life and marriage together if you are willing. So that every year from this anniversary we will celebrate 2 anniversaries, the new beginning of life together and the original marriage when you made me the luckiest man alive by becoming my beautiful wife. Just please come with me and let me show you just how good life can be again. Please take your time to think about it as I do not want you to feel pressured and let me know when you feel you are ready.

Please don’t misunderstand what I mean as I do not expect us to be living together by then as I know you need time, I am just hoping you will at least be speaking with me by then and we could maybe spend the evening together just talking and I will buy dinner. On that special night let’s stop the pain for both of us and begin the journey together to help each other start to heal._

The main thing is she needs to stop being so angry and start talking to me. I don't mean she has to come running back home or even meet with me in person but after 2 month of "Having space" it is time to start talking and helping each other get through this and start working toward our future together instead of continuing to shut me out and not talk as she has done most of our marriage which caused most of our problems to begin with.



> So how do you reconcile? Well, it isn't going to happen overnight. Specifically, you need go in under the radar. As I stated above, it is obvious that she is resisting any overt attempts to reconcile the relationship. You need to attempt to make contact with her, at least once per week. Since she is in low-contact mode, try 1-way communications. These are texts or voicemails that she is not expected to respond to. If she responds, that is great, but it is not the point. You are showing consistency and care. It gently pulls at her heart strings.


Of course its not going to happen overnight, I never expected it to. I am a 54 year old man and have been around and understand life just a bit. All I am saying is she has had a months worth of space and I am even willing to give her most of this month if she needs it but she has to stop acting the way she is and start at least talking. Once again I have been very understanding even though I sit here for an unknown amount of time not knowing what the heck is going on. We need to start the healing in order to ever reconsile and that's not going to happen until we start to talk. I asked her to go to counseling with me AFTER she has had the time she needs so that we can get the proper guidance we need. I told her that she can continue to live where she is during the counseling and then move back when she is ready. I do not see that as instant gradification but instead I see that as being caring and understanding and respecting her needs and mental state at this time. I stopped sounding needy after the 3rd day after the seperation and it is now a little over month since then.



> You feel that if you become a pin doll, she will give up the assault. Instead, it is more likely to persist. You have shown weakness, and she needs your strength. This is when you have to honor the relationship, and not feed her pride. Relationships don't work if partners are victims.


No! It is my fault for not honoring the promise I made to her when she became my wife. It is time to stop lying to myself and everyone else and admit what I have done. I do not see that as a weakness but I see it as being a mature adult and admiting that I was wrong instead of blaming everyone one else for my mistakes. I am showing her that I understand what I have put her through and am willing to change for the better. It is my fault for not stepping up and doing what I needed to do and I am not afraid to admit it.



> Also, let her say anything she wants to you. I am not telling you to become the victim. If you can just listen to her, you can figure out what is bothing her. If you take it personally, she might not ever get it out. Also, women just need to be heard and understood.


Here is the last part of the letter:

_If you want to call me and just scream at me you can and I will stay quiet and listen. You need to let it out and it needs to be let out on me as it will really make you feel better. You can scream at every one on the planet but it will not help until it is me you scream at. _


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OP, I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet... With all your hip and back pain, how is your sex life with your wife? Had it affected your ability to be intimate and enjoy being together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Fred Oppous said:


> This is the exact words from the letter I sent
> 
> I don’t blame you for being angry with me I deserve it for the pain you have suffered. I can never take that away but I can do everything possible to ensure it never happens again if I am lucky enough and you let an old fool like me show you just how happy we can be again.


Same comments from my 1st post^



> She also said that I stopped involving myself in her life. This all came about several years ago because she did not get along with my sister and because of that she disrespected my father and his girlfriend. For a 2 year period of time she refused to go to anything that had to do with my side of the family and I had to take my son go without her. During that same 2 years I continued to go to all events with her side of the family but then decided that was not right. So I did as she did and told her that I would no longer go see her family until she would start seeing my family again.


I'll give you some insight. Years back, my old self suffered some challenges and was left with crippling anxiety. The decision was made to do serious self-development. It eventually branched out to self-development in the relationship context. Long story short, the first thing you have to do is to stop taking things personally and be extremely responsible to the relationship. When you go this route, you will very quickly realize that you stand alone. You will clean up your externalized negativity, and others will still be acting as they were, all along. What is this? It is fairness. It is a concept that will only derail a relationship from a healthy course.

What is one person standing in an open field, wearing armor and equipped with a sword? What happens if they are swinging the sword about wildly? 

Now take a 2nd person doing the same, directed at one another. This is now a battle, and the first example was nothing. Acting on fairness will confirm that the relationship will be heading to the battlefield. It cannot go there with one person. I'm not saying it is easy to take an upset partner off the battlefield, but it is a much better option to try that, rather than joining them there.



> She would always go running around on the weekends with our son such as shopping and to see her Uncle because she hated the condo so much she could not stay there and just take it easy for the day but had to "Get Out" for the day. Sometimes I could not go places with her because of my back and hips and this then turned into me being excluded from her life. I would wake up on Saturday and Sunday mornings to an empty house not knowing where they went or when they would be back. They would be gone the entire day and night getting home just 10-15 minutes before their bedtime. They would walk in and then it was time to get ready for bed cause they had a long day and were tired. For at least the last year I sat home alone and hungry while they were doing whatever and had dinner without me. I would end up having a turkey or bologna sandwich after they went to bed and can't tell you how sick I am of turkey and bolonga sandwiches. I was never told what their plans were and was not asked anymore if I wanted to come along.


It appears the disconnecting has taken place a long time ago. With disconnection, problems arise that would never do so if the connection never deteriorated.


> She claimed that my son was angry with me because he didn't have a father anymore. I said thats nonesense as I have not changed and am still the same father I've been for the last 13 years of his life. He just turned on me overnight and would just stare at me like I was an axe murder or something. I always picked him up from school and had done so since he was in pre-school. One day everything was normal and the very next day I picked him up he didn't say a word the whole way home. Then went got home and he would just give me that look and then grab the phone and go outside. At first I thought he was calling one of his friends and knew that kids his age didn't want mom and dad hearing what they talked about. But this same pattern happened everyday and so I went online and checked the call history to see if indeed it was a friend he was calling. It turned out that he was calling his mom and his grand uncle everyday and not a friend. I told my wife what he was doing and said I don't have a problem with who he was calling but that it was suspious that he went outside everytime to do so. She didn't think much of it and just said he liked going outside. I said it is suspious because he would always go outside and if he had nothing to hide he would sometimes call from inside. She thought I was being a jerk accusing him of hiding something and should just feel the same as her that he just likes going outside. She would defend him on anything and I was always the ahole for accusing him of doing something wrong. He would also bring the phone back in and then go right back outside and it became apparent that he not only didn't want to be in the same room as me but didn't want to be in the same house as me. This all started just after he started spending more time at his uncle's house. What I think is the uncle turned him against me and then used that to manipulated my wife into thinking I was a bad dad which then ended in the separation. That is why I wish I could get her to go stay some where else because I think that she starts to cool down and then her uncle just winds her right back up.


You're the bad guy and any attempt to change her living situation just confirms their perception of that. I understand that you are in a terrible situation, having those you love turn on you. That said, there are approaches that can hurt or help. I recommend you take more of a factual approach to life, full of acceptance and understanding.




> My back and hip issues are exstensive and I got most of them from my mom. I have a crooked sacrum (the triangular bone at the end of the spine by the pelvis) which causes crooked hips. I also have scoliosis which is pretty extreme but not enough that I have to wear a brace. In my mid back there is a section that comes out solid white in x-rays which is about 6-7 vertebrate long because all the cartilage is gone and non exsistent so the discs are bone on bone with no cushion. I have a protruding disc in my lumbar along with parts of my neck that the cartilage is deteriorated but not compltely gone like my back. And yes I work. It is very painful everyday but as I said it is something you learn to live with over the years.


It's odd that you qualify for no SSDI. I can't take away any of your physical pain, but hope it doesn't destroy your mood, entirely.




> Again though everything she has told me the couple times we talked and what her family has told me it was mainly due to my lack of finding full time work and supporting the family. They said "she should not have to work her fingers to the bone and pay for most of everything". Also her uncle accused me of causing my son emotional abuse and what a shame it was that he had to sit outside and wait for his mother to get home. What he doesn't realize is I didn't yell at him or throw him out of the house or anything like that. It was my sons decision to do that. I would bring him home from school and he would walk in, put down his backpack, grab the phone and go outside. But of course he only hears what my wife tells him and not the whole story. That is another problem. No one on her side of the family will hear me out and has passed judgement soley on her side of the story. She is known to manipulate people by only telling carefully chosen parts of an issue to make her look like such a caring and wonderful wife and what a jerk I am for treating her badly. She seems to thrive on having people feel sorry for her even when they have been manipulated to do so.


I hear this story from many points of view, all of the time. I can offer you helpful, but tough to swallow advice.

Imagine you put your words in a box, and place it on the table. You let others open the box to hear your words. From there, they are free to do with them as they wish. She might even place her own words on the table. I advise you to not try to brush her words aside. Similarly, you have to just let them do what they wish with the various boxes of words. Any application of force, and you become the A$$ to them. They are aligned, and it is not about being factually right, but subjectively right. It is completely understandable, if you understand pride.

A quick example:

Instead of saying "no that's not true, I didn't do xyz, I did zyx"

stick to the facts, without brushing their words aside

Say "I did zyx"

It can feel rather uncomfortable, but when done right, it is very powerful. They could still make a prideful character attack against you, but it will be them that are left with a very uncomfortable feeling, as they attacked someone who gave no negativity or argument.



> I cannot keep contacting her because I have been told by many that she was getting even more annoyed with me the few times I did and that I was pushing her farther away which I do not want to do.


I would expect nothing less, given the situation and your words/mindset. Remember, I am advising a different mindset and different choice of words. It is a very subtle approach. All you might say is "Hey, I love you guys" or "I was thinking about you guys today" 

This is a minimum. If the contempt is great, then you just keep it to once per week or so.



> I did not say things that were meant for instant gradification. I did the oppisite and told her I understand what she is going through and to take all the time she needs. Our anniversary has always been a very important day to both of us and was trying to be romantic but still understanding her needs. Again here is that part of the letter:


I am confident that, somewhere inside of you, there is a desire for her to reciprocate with some gratification. I am aware I am making an assertive assumption, but it is with empirical basis.



> Next month on July 25 it will be our 17th anniversary. I would like you to think about that we both agree that will be the anniversary of our new life and marriage together if you are willing. So that every year from this anniversary we will celebrate 2 anniversaries, the new beginning of life together and the original marriage when you made me the luckiest man alive by becoming my beautiful wife. Just please come with me and let me show you just how good life can be again. Please take your time to think about it as I do not want you to feel pressured and let me know when you feel you are ready.


It isn't mean. It isn't desperate, necessarily. But it is a bit needy.

Consider this, can you give a message like this to a pretty lady in a bar, that you've never met? They will think you are crazy. But, we can use these same types of messages when we are madly in love, and that same lady...... that you married, will reciprocate.

To put it simply, the context for that type of message is wrong.




> The main thing is she needs to stop being so angry and start talking to me. I don't mean she has to come running back home or even meet with me in person but after 2 month of "Having space" it is time to start talking and helping each other get through this and start working toward our future together instead of continuing to shut me out and not talk as she has done most of our marriage which caused most of our problems to begin with.


This perception will cause problems. It isn't that you are not "right", in ways, it is what the pride will inform you to do based upon it.

Connection saves marriages, not working/fighting for it. The basic idea is that an indirect approach is what works. So you remain loyal to the relationship (very specific context) and you maintain the connection. The connection fixes the problems for you. Your direct attention has to be on the connection.

More often than not, individuals think they are making the situation better, but are actually attacking the underlying connection.



> Of course its not going to happen overnight, I never expected it to. I am a 54 year old man and have been around and understand life just a bit. All I am saying is she has had a months worth of space and I am even willing to give her most of this month if she needs it but she has to stop acting the way she is and start at least talking.


You have good intentions, but this will be expressed with pressure. 

She doesn't have to do anything. She doesn't have to be nice or be mean. She is free to come or go, assuming you want her to come.

I say this, because I have to. I understand the pain you are in (physically, mentally, emotoinally). I could agree with everything you say, and side with you. But, I respect you to be able to handle the truth, and respect you to be able to consider an alternative. I am telling you that I am confident that your expressed mindset will stand in the way of reconciliation.



> Once again I have been very understanding even though I sit here for an unknown amount of time not knowing what the heck is going on. We need to start the healing in order to ever reconsile and that's not going to happen until we start to talk. I asked her to go to counseling with me AFTER she has had the time she needs so that we can get the proper guidance we need. I told her that she can continue to live where she is during the counseling and then move back when she is ready. I do not see that as instant gradification but instead I see that as being caring and understanding and respecting her needs and mental state at this time. I stopped sounding needy after the 3rd day after the seperation and it is now a little over month since then.


I advise you to step back and re-evaluate things. To do so will require questioning everything you know, ultimately. The pain you feel is a tremendous challenge for you, and it will make this process harder. Yes, the sadness you feel will make reconciliation harder.

The thing is that you have to get past step 1 and step 2 for her to even consider counseling. You feel that counseling is step one. It isn't. She has a wall up and will resist jumping to step 3. So get in, under her radar, and get the first steps accomplished. After that is done, most individuals find that counseling isn't needed.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

happy as a clam said:


> OP, I'm very sorry for what you're going through.
> 
> I don't think this has been mentioned yet... With all your hip and back pain, how is your sex life with your wife? Had it affected your ability to be intimate and enjoy being together?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was great as she was always very concerned and considerate whether what we were doing was causing me pain. But about a year or so ago she stopped showing me any affection and would not even kiss me hello or goodbye. When I finally got upset and had a talk with her about it she started to kiss me again but I had to go to her for it and then she would try to kiss me as quick as possible with as little contact as possible. I told her that I can see she is only doing it because she feels guilty for what I talked to her about and was tired of having to chase after her just to get a kiss hello or goodbye. As I said the sex stopped a little over a year ago and it was her not me. It was very painful to see her and not be able to hold her. My birthday was in Jan and she took me to dinner and a movie while my son spent the night at his friends house. We had a very nice night but got home and in 5 minutes she was already saying she was going to bed and goodnight. I got very upset and said "Really? Its my birthday and you're just going to sleep? That's it?" then got angry and told her to just go to bed. And this was a Saturday night so she didn't have to get up early for work or anything. I was angry the rest of the night and most of the next day. Then a few minutes before my son was due back home I went to her, held both her hands and apologized for my behavior last night. I told her that I was hurt because we don't get the chance to have time for just us very often and had been looking forward all day to spending some quality time with her. I could see by her expression that she liked what I was saying which was good. Then she said my son was due home any minute and I said I know but can I have just one kiss before he gets here. She smiled and said of course and we had avery beautiful romantic kiss. The night before she left I told her that that was the last time she kissed me like that and that was 6 months ago. But she just didn't seem to care and got angry with me instead.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

> I'll give you some insight. Years back, my old self suffered some challenges and was left with crippling anxiety. The decision was made to do serious self-development. It eventually branched out to self-development in the relationship context. Long story short, the first thing you have to do is to stop taking things personally and be extremely responsible to the relationship. When you go this route, you will very quickly realize that you stand alone. You will clean up your externalized negativity, and others will still be acting as they were, all along. What is this? It is fairness. It is a concept that will only derail a relationship from a healthy course.
> 
> What is one person standing in an open field, wearing armor and equipped with a sword? What happens if they are swinging the sword about wildly?
> 
> Now take a 2nd person doing the same, directed at one another. This is now a battle, and the first example was nothing. Acting on fairness will confirm that the relationship will be heading to the battlefield. It cannot go there with one person. I'm not saying it is easy to take an upset partner off the battlefield, but it is a much better option to try that, rather than joining them there.


A few years ago I started suffering from anxiety attacks, really bad ones. She was very understanding and took time off work to take me to doctors. We finally found a doctor that was able to give me the proper meds that made me better. I was classified as anti depressant resistant (or somthing like that) as they tried pretty much every medication there was with no results and sometimes negetive results. This doctor didn't like doing it but gave me Dexetrine (amphetamine) which was sometimes used in rare cases like mine where the person was resistant to all other medications. That paired with Mirtazapine did the trick and I was back. After about a year of this treatment I was able to stop taking both meds and have been fine ever since. They never did find the reason that had caused the attacks.

Again no offense but I have to disagree with the armor statement. I feel that I have shed my armor and instead have asked to stop the war and fighting. I caused the battle with my unwillingness to do what a husband and father is responsible for and instead put all the burden on her. That was wrong. She should not have had to carry the responsibility of supporting us and I should have made more of an effort to do so. Again I am showing her that I understand what I put her through instead of pointing fingers and blaming her or others. By showing her that I have finally seen my faults and took ownership of my mistakes it show her that I am working on bettering myself and that I understand and feel her pain. Instead of putting on that armor and swinging that sword and trying to destroy everyone around me rather than lay down my arms and see what really happened. I took off my armor as a gesture of peace and an offering of rebuilding the country I envaded and turned to ruins. I let her know that I understand her pain and felt her pain and what I put her through instead of just complaining about my own pain and being selfish and only caring about what I was feeling and going through.

Also I think I forgot to mention that when see left all she said was she needed a break and needed some time. The last time I talked to her and told her to take all the time see needed she said thank you and will call me soon. The only thing is that was 2 weeks ago so I am unclear on her definition of soon. That was also almost a month of being seperated and I could understand her still being angry but the level of anger she still had seemed a bit more then it should have been. That is what scares me. That she still was that angry and still has not contacted me makes me worried that the longer this goes on the more likely she will feel she doesn't need or want me in her life anymore and the break will become a permanant one. Also I did find full time work and have been working for a week now.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

> I advise you to step back and re-evaluate things. To do so will require questioning everything you know, ultimately. The pain you feel is a tremendous challenge for you, and it will make this process harder. Yes, the sadness you feel will make reconciliation harder.
> 
> The thing is that you have to get past step 1 and step 2 for her to even consider counseling. You feel that counseling is step one. It isn't. She has a wall up and will resist jumping to step 3. So get in, under her radar, and get the first steps accomplished. After that is done, most individuals find that counseling isn't needed.


I am sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to tell me here. What are steps 1 and 2 that you speak of and how am I suppose to get in under the radar? I am sorry but if you could please explain a bit more. Thanks.

Also I feel that us talking is step one and us reconnecting is step two. Once this is accomplished then step three should happen which is counseling. But she needs to start step one with me soon or we will never get to step 3.


----------



## oceanbreeze (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi! 

I feel very confused as why your wife would just leave. From my understanding of your point of view, you are trying your very best to keep your family and lifestyle together...especially living in California! I was born in SF, grew up in SF/Daly City, then now Hayward and the rent prices are more than what I make in a month! So I commend you for at least meeting all the family's basic needs. 

I feel I cannot truly advise you because I feel like there's an element missing from the perspective of your wife. I wonder if there is something more going on, but I cannot pinpoint what it could be.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

> Quote:
> My back and hip issues are exstensive and I got most of them from my mom. I have a crooked sacrum (the triangular bone at the end of the spine by the pelvis) which causes crooked hips. I also have scoliosis which is pretty extreme but not enough that I have to wear a brace. In my mid back there is a section that comes out solid white in x-rays which is about 6-7 vertebrate long because all the cartilage is gone and non exsistent so the discs are bone on bone with no cushion. I have a protruding disc in my lumbar along with parts of my neck that the cartilage is deteriorated but not compltely gone like my back. And yes I work. It is very painful everyday but as I said it is something you learn to live with over the years.
> 
> It's odd that you qualify for no SSDI. I can't take away any of your physical pain, but hope it doesn't destroy your mood, entirely.


You obiously arn't familar with disability in California and how it is near impossible to get it even for people with worst problems then myself.



> Quote:
> Again though everything she has told me the couple times we talked and what her family has told me it was mainly due to my lack of finding full time work and supporting the family. They said "she should not have to work her fingers to the bone and pay for most of everything". Also her uncle accused me of causing my son emotional abuse and what a shame it was that he had to sit outside and wait for his mother to get home. What he doesn't realize is I didn't yell at him or throw him out of the house or anything like that. It was my sons decision to do that. I would bring him home from school and he would walk in, put down his backpack, grab the phone and go outside. But of course he only hears what my wife tells him and not the whole story. That is another problem. No one on her side of the family will hear me out and has passed judgement soley on her side of the story. She is known to manipulate people by only telling carefully chosen parts of an issue to make her look like such a caring and wonderful wife and what a jerk I am for treating her badly. She seems to thrive on having people feel sorry for her even when they have been manipulated to do so.
> I hear this story from many points of view, all of the time. I can offer you helpful, but tough to swallow advice.
> 
> ...


Again you don't understand what I have said. She is the only one who has put her words in a box or on the table. I have not been allowed to say one word. I have asked her uncle in a very nice and respectful way if he would allow me to explain things and then pass judgement but he would have no part of it. Just like the first time I called and he answered the phone and I asked to speak to my wife. He told me that he will not get in the middle of this and it is between us, but yet he refused to give her the phone and talked to me for 30 minutes. I asked him if he would please talk to my son because I texted him and asked him to just text me back "I'm Okay". It was just 2 words so he didn't feel like he had to do a bunch of talking to his dad and to me it wasn't what the 2 words meant but would just let me know that maybe I was starting to break through to my son at least. He said to me "you should know they're okay" which yes I did but again it wasn't the 2 words actual meaning. Then he tells me about my son "He's okay, actually he's better than okay. I haven't seen him this happy in a long time". The next day around noon I get a text thats suppose to be from my son which reads "Hi dad, I'm Okay, actually I'm better than Okay and I am happier then I have been in a long time". Yeah right! I'm suppose to believe it's from my son. That guy must really think I am stupid. 

The point is my wife has been telling everyone what she wants to tell them and not the full story. She does this and has done it in the past many times. She only tells people what she wants them to hear so she looks like the wonderful, loving and caring wife who did nothing but give of herself and did nothing wrong and what an ahole I am to have treated such a wonderful woman the way I did. If these people would hear the full facts of what actually happened they might not be so quick to judge and would tell her to stop acting the way she is and to try to work things out. Anytime there is an incident between 2 people you must hear from both parties before deciding because there are always 2 sides to a story and the one that you heard may not be revealing what truly happened.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

oceanbreeze said:


> Hi!
> 
> I feel very confused as why your wife would just leave. From my understanding of your point of view, you are trying your very best to keep your family and lifestyle together...especially living in California! I was born in SF, grew up in SF/Daly City, then now Hayward and the rent prices are more than what I make in a month! So I commend you for at least meeting all the family's basic needs.
> 
> I feel I cannot truly advise you because I feel like there's an element missing from the perspective of your wife. I wonder if there is something more going on, but I cannot pinpoint what it could be.


Oh San Francisco, my wife and I love SF and would go there once a year for many years and have even dicussed moving there. We are in Los Angeles.

Anyways this is exactly what I am saying. I have asked her many times before the separation why she was so angry with me and stopped giving me any affection. She would refuse to give me an answer. I told her to please tell me because I want to fix it but I cannot fix what I don't know is broken. She again would refuse and then I was an ahole for pressuring her. Many times I went to her, took her hand and said can we please stop the fighting, the last thing I want is to fight with you, can we just be a couple and family again? She would just yank her hand away and storm off saying I don't know, I don't know. She emailed me 2 days before the separation say that she needed a break and I managed to talk her out of it. She also said in the email that there were problems a while back but sucked it up and didn't say anything because she thought that was the way things were suppose to be. On the night before she left I just talked to her in a caring way saying that she said there were problems a while ago but bottled it up and didn't say anything. I was then going to just tell her to please not do that anymore and to come talk to me immediately so we can take care of it. But right when i finished saying that she bottled it up and didn't say anything she cut me off and said she did talk to me. I told her no you didn't that she said in her own words that she sucked it up but she insisted that she did both. I told her that you can't do both it's either one or the other. A person can't bottle it up and talk about it that it just doesn't work that way. She got mad and stormed off to bed. The next morning she left.


----------



## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

To me, it sounds like she is done with the marriage. She has frozen you out of her life and heart. There may already be another man since you guys haven't been having sex for a year. I hope I'm wrong.

I would personally say, "Honey, I've set up an appointment with a marriage counselor. I'm not willing to throw away our marriage without trying to get professional help first." Maybe this will move her to join the fight for your marriage. 

I would absolutely set up a weekend away with your son, doing something the two of you enjoy. Take that time to talk with him, and tell him you feel like he is angry with you, and that you need to know what you did, and what you can do to fix it. Get on this NOW. Do not let it fester with your son. Talk openly with him and express to him how much you love him and want to be with him, and would never hurt him intentionally. Even if he doesn't open up to you that day, he will continue to think on your words. They will touch his heart. 

That said, as far as your wife goes, it sounds to me like it is too late. Most of the time when women are done, they are done. Usually they have taken a very long time to get to that point, but many times the husbands don't listen, or believe we will really leave. Until it happens....once I was done, nothing would have made me come back. YMMV....and I hope it does.


----------



## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

There's a lot here, and I admit to not reading all of it. But here's what I got...

There are a lot of reasons why folks call it quits, but "Needing space" fairly shouts she's not terribly enlightened or mature. Ending a marriage is a big deal..especially when kids are involved..and folks usually..at some point....offer a more detailed explanation. She hasn't. We can guess at her reasons, but it doesn't sound as if you guys have really talked to each other. Things have changed pretty drastically since your injury, but marriages can survive those things. Methinks your wife is just emotionally pretty limited and doesn't have the band width to adapt to changes.

I'd suggest you let her know that her decision affects not only you, but your child..who at 13 is just beginning the most difficult part of his life..and that for his sake (as well as both of yours), you need to talk with her about this, and make an appt. with a therapist to do so.

The issue isn't "Her need for space"...but the consequences of doing so without discussing it or giving you a chance to respond.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I am curious about how much you weight. Many years ago I tried Mirtazapine as a sleep aid. Very effective but had the side effect of giving me a voracious appetite. Between that and your limited mobility to exercise, did you gain a lot of weight and still have it?

I may be wrong, but I thought SSDI was a federal program. Where I live there are lawyers that specialize in this. They will not charge you unless they win, but if they win, they will take a hefty payment. Do they have that by you?

Baring abuse, she cannot just take your son and run. That is essentially kidnapping. See a lawyer about your parental rights and see if you can get a temporary court order for partial custody. If so ordered and she refuses she can go to jail. 

You need to consult a lawyer as to what your situation would be if she does not come back.


----------



## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I may be wrong, but I thought SSDI was a federal program. Where I live there are lawyers that specialize in this. They will not charge you unless they win, but if they win, they will take a hefty payment. Do they have that by you?


 Social security disability is a federal program. The state you live in has no authority in the decision making process. If your initial application is denied, you have the right to appeal. If your appeal is denied, you have the right to request a hearing before a federal judge.

There are lawyers that specialize in disability cases, I retained one when I filed. You pay them nothing unless you win. If you win, they get 20% of your back pay up to $5000. That was the maximum amount they could get 6 years ago. Not sure if it has raised.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I am curious about how much you weight. Many years ago I tried Mirtazapine as a sleep aid. Very effective but had the side effect of giving me a voracious appetite. Between that and your limited mobility to exercise, did you gain a lot of weight and still have it?
> 
> I may be wrong, but I thought SSDI was a federal program. Where I live there are lawyers that specialize in this. They will not charge you unless they win, but if they win, they will take a hefty payment. Do they have that by you?
> 
> ...


No I did not gain any weight. It did not have that affect on me. As far as the SSDI it is state disability and would be paid by the state not federal goverment. Also I do exercise by walking a lot.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

Palodyne said:


> Social security disability is a federal program. The state you live in has no authority in the decision making process. If your initial application is denied, you have the right to appeal. If your appeal is denied, you have the right to request a hearing before a federal judge.
> 
> There are lawyers that specialize in disability cases, I retained one when I filed. You pay them nothing unless you win. If you win, they get 20% of your back pay up to $5000. That was the maximum amount they could get 6 years ago. Not sure if it has raised.


I am looking for a lawyer currently to represent me. But even with a lawyer it could take a year or longer before anything happens.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Fred Oppous said:


> But even with a lawyer it could take a year or longer before anything happens.


True, but if you do not try this a year from now you will still be a year older but no SSDI.

What are your plans about a lawyer regarding custody, or are you content with her keeping your son without visitation?


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

Spicy said:


> To me, it sounds like she is done with the marriage. She has frozen you out of her life and heart. There may already be another man since you guys haven't been having sex for a year. I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> I would personally say, "Honey, I've set up an appointment with a marriage counselor. I'm not willing to throw away our marriage without trying to get professional help first." Maybe this will move her to join the fight for your marriage.
> 
> ...


As I said she only said she needs a break and will call me soon. She has not said it was over and has not said anything even related to divorce. I don't think she is seeing another man. Sex was never a top priority for her as she always felt there were other parts of the marriage that were more important. Not that she didn't want to but it was never on a regular basis and would always be a bit of time in between. I had no problem with that as I was happy to just hold her and watch TV. As long as there was contact I was happy. I had thought at one time there might be someone else but all my attempts at finding any evidence turned up nothing and believe me I have the resources.

She has not answered yes or no to counseling because I think she didn't understand the conditions of the question. I believe she thought I was asking her to go immediately instead of after she has some time. I asked one of her sisters to tell her I should have been more clear and explain what I was really asking. Her sister explained it to her and said she now understands I just haven't had the chance to speak with her again to see if she has an answer.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Fred, I has been a month. She won't even talk to you or allow you to see your son. How long are you going to wait to take action? Another month? Two? Five?

Is she paying towards the household expenses or has she abandoned you?


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> True, but if you do not try this a year from now you will still be a year older but no SSDI.
> 
> What are your plans about a lawyer regarding custody, or are you content with her keeping your son without visitation?


Until she says it is over there will be no lawyers involed. If it isn't over and I bring in a lawyer then it will be over for sure and I will have just screwed myself out of any chance of reconciling. That would be even stupider than anything I did that caused the separation in the first place.

As far as my son I text him everyday or two and tell him I love him and am here for him. I tell him he can contact me anytime day or night 24 hours a day. I also talk about good times and events that we had fun doing together which should bring him around eventually.


----------



## Fred Oppous (Jun 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Fred, I has been a month. She won't even talk to you or allow you to see your son. How long are you going to wait to take action? Another month? Two? Five?
> 
> Is she paying towards the household expenses or has she abandoned you?


Until she says it is over I will wait and give her space. As I said our anniversary is at the end of this month. If I don't hear from her by a few days before I will call her. Everyone I have talked to including my family and my friends all agree that I just need to back off and let her have some time. If I don't I will just push her farther and farther away and then it will be over for sure. I wrote her that letter and told her I will respect her request to have some time. By me stopping all contact from that point that will be a month she will have to cool down and then she hopefully will talk. I should have done this a few weeks ago instead of still trying to talk to her even if it was just once or twice in the last month. She is upset and angry now and people say hurtful things that are purely the anger speaking but they really don't mean. I am sure everyone who has exsisted on this planet has said something that they didn't mean because of the heat of the moment.

She was paying all the household exspenses which is the main reason for the separation! Have you not read anything? Yes she has stopped paying the bills but I am pretty sure she has done this to motivate me to make the changes I needed to and have.

And its not that she won't let me talk to my son, he doesn't want to talk to me!


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I wish you good luck. Keep posting here. I will help you.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Fred you need to wake up and start making preparations to protect yourself.

Your "wife" is clearly not a nice person. I believe there is another man that she is trying out (probably has been for some time now). You are still kept on the hook as Plan B should things not work out or at least until they do with some other man.


Start snooping and you might find the truth. In the meantime believe nothing that she says.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Well, if you're going to give her all the time in the world until she 'decides it's over', you are going to be sorely disappointed.

You're just allowing her to get everything set up perfectly for when she files.

And she just absconds with your son, too??

You're ok with that?

She's 10 steps ahead of you. Start ignoring what she says. Watch her actions instead. Because to those of us observing this scenario, its obvious what she is doing.

You better consult with a lawyer to at least learn the D laws in your state.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Well, if you're going to give her all the time in the world until she 'decides it's over', you are going to be sorely disappointed.
> 
> You're just allowing her to get everything set up perfectly for when she files.
> 
> ...


This.

OP, I am curious if you know what her boyfriend's name is. She likely met him over a year ago, likely consumated the relationship when her affection began to dry up, and then she decided to try out living with him when she left. I would wager a large sum this is the case.

However, it should not change your course of action. She is gone. File, leave her behind and implement the 180, for your own healing.

I am sorry for your pain, both physical and emotional. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chinabound49 (Aug 12, 2016)

My wife is an attractive highly sexed Chinese woman i met and married 12 years ago in China when i was there working. 5 months ago out of the blue she informed me she does not love mew anymore and wants a divorce. We separated 4 months ago and she has told me we can never be husband and wife again, nor can we ever be together again, but she will always consider me part of her family (whatever that means). Since then we have played the rollercoaster game, one day she will call me and message me, has gone shopping and dropped of some of my favorite stuff without wanting any money for it, then next day argues and screams wildly at me. If i don't contact her in any way, after like 3 or 4 days she finds a reason to contact me. I have asked her if she has someone else, or has dated, and yes, if she has had sex, and she say no no no. She regularly reminds me that the marriage ended cause of my fault 100%. I have also found out she has been on dating sites for a few years at least, and knowing her as well as I do, with her very high sex drive, I would venture to guess that after 4 months separated from me, there is a very high chance she has been ****ed by another guy. Now my confusion is this - if she truly does not love me at all, and does not want to ever be with me ever again, not ever to go out for dinner, and states it is totally over and that she does not think of me at all ever now, then why the hell would she still talk to me almost daily, even though most times she gets arguing and yelling, why does she still the odd time buy me snacks that she knows i like, tell me that she has not dated anyone or had sex with anyone, and on and on and on? Me? If i had lost love for her, and said i want a divorce and we split, none of this what she does would happen. I would only have contact with her if it was an emergency. To me if I really have decided it is over for good, then that is exactly what it would be, over for good.

If anyone has any thoughts or comments i would appreciate hearing them.

Thanks

Bill


----------



## oceanbreeze (Oct 8, 2007)

HI Fred Oppus. Wondering what happened and if all is well.


----------

