# My wife and I just suck at being married.



## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I don't know what I've gotten myself into. First of all, thanks to all of you who are even reading this. I'm at a loss of what to do with my marriage.

My wife and I fight ALL. THE. TIME. I honestly just can't handle it anymore. We have not even been married for a year yet. We can generally always count on at least one big fight per week, usually on the weekend.

Our most recent fight...I'm a pilot in the Navy, and I was just prescribed Ambien (the sleeping pill) by my Flight Surgeon. He gave me this because I've had trouble sleeping with our crazy flight schedule. When I told my wife about it, I also told her about how I read some people take the drug and then have sex because it lets the user "let go of their inhibitions." This sounded like it could be fun for she and I whenever I was to take it. The conversation also spun off into how some people don't remember the sex after it's over, and how Tiger Woods blamed his affairs on Ambien.

This morning, I get a call from her saying she doesn't think it's a good idea for me to take it because if I go on deployment and have sex with someone and try to use the drug as an excuse that that excuse "isn't going to fly". WTF!?

I've never cheated on this girl, or anyone for that matter. And that's the kind of response I get from her. I was offended. And, let's serious, THIS IS STUPID. You think your husband is going to cheat on you because he's taking a doctor-prescribed sleeping pill? Gimme a break.

So naturally, we're fighting about it again today. We're fighting because she says I made her feel stupid. Well, I felt like crap because she thinks this lowly of me...and I do NOT feel like I need to clear the drugs I take with my wife when I have a DOCTOR prescription.

We fight over this silliness ALL the time. Knock-down, drag out fights that include slamming doors, yelling at each other, and then just avoiding each other for days sometimes.

Are my wife and I doomed? We've tried going to a counselor, to no positive effect.

Sorry to ramble...thanks in advance for replies!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JC, welcome to the TAM forum -- and thank you for your service to the country. If you feel comfortable doing so, please give us additional information about your W's behavior. Did the fighting start immediately after the wedding? Is your sex life extremely passionate when she is one of her good moods? Does she exhibit a Jekyll-Hyde behavior, wherein she will flip in seconds from loving you to devaluing (or hating) you -- being triggered by some minor comment or infraction? Do you see a cycle of her pushing you away and then, several days later, pulling you back by being very loving and caring? When she is good, is she very VERY good? Did she experience abuse or abandonment before age five?


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

There's definitely a disconnect here. Just an idea - it's possible she's creating drama because there's some kind of underlying problem. When you're gone, is it for long periods of time? What happened in the counseling, why didn't it work? It sounds like there might be some jealousy going on on her part. Are you compatible sexually? A lot of times, that's the root of the problem from what I've seen so far.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

Thanks for the replies everyone! I really do appreciate having some knowledgable people to talk to. Here's some more background on her/us:

She's from England, and she moved here just to be with me. We got married while she was here, and she now has her green card and work permit. For about a year, she was solely living off of me. While in the UK, she had a great job at the Royal Bank of Scotland. She now got a job with Chase bank here in the US, about 3 weeks ago.

The fighting started before our wedding, about a month and a half after she moved here, but I'd say it has gotten worse.

Our sex life could be better. We have sex usually 4-6 times a week, sometimes it's amazing, other times not so much. Both of us always climax, at least. Our sex used to be amazing ALL the time, but I just attribute it to us now being more familiar with each other and not being AS excited.

When things are good, things are really really good. We're all over each other, playing with each other, doing the ULTRA sappy things that people do when they're in love. But it seems that happiness can be interrupted almost instantly. We can fight at the drop of a dime. I'll admit, it can be me that gets offended, but it's generally something with her. Then again, maybe I'm looking at it all wrong.

I don't believe she experienced any abuse when she was young, but she has mentioned how her mother "shut her out" when she was younger. Her parents are divorced, and she lived with her dad. Apparently, her mom barely came around and they didn't have too close of a relationship. Their relationship seems a bit better now.

I'm now just waking up, on my sofa. She's upstairs, which is where she stayed all night last night and through this morning thus far. After our fight yesterday, she just left the house saying nothing, but then texted my phone to tell me off about making her feel stupid for how she was feeling (about the whole Ambien/cheating thing). I left the house to watch a football game with a friend. I came back, she was upstairs, where she still is. No contact


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

THANKS for serving our country. 

I'm still trying to figure out why she is mad at you. because you suggested you'd have great sex after taking ambien and she leaped to the conclusion that you'd have an affair while away, so this is all making her feel stupid? Does she always twist things around like this? what happened 1-1/2 months before marriage that the fighting started? are you always on the defensive, or sometimes are you super sensitive about things and blow your cork? is it always her that starts the fights? what's bugging her? there must be something because when things are great, little things roll off your back, but when there's resentment, the littlest thing is cause for a fight.

If you are always wrong, always the bad guy, always the cause of her misery, walking on eggshells because you never know what is going to set her off, and if counseling doesn't help, then I'm afraid you two were not meant to be.

Anger/stress like this should not be happening in the honeymoon phase.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

IsGirl3...I'm trying to sort it out in my mind too!

Apparently, when I mentioned the Ambien to her, she then started Googling it. She read a couple articles that mentioned how when people take it and don't lay down to sleep, they can do things like have sex with someone other than their partner, but then not remember it (therefore, not feeling guilty about it either). This led her to the conclusion that I could take it while I'm on deployment, cheat on her, and feel no remorse. ALL OF THAT, from me being prescribed Ambien by my flight doctor because of my crazy flight schedule. If that isn't crazy, then I don't know what is.

So when she called me telling me all this yesterday at 8:30am after I had flown a mission all night long, I couldn't believe it. I reacted in manner like, "Are you serious right now? This is actually bothering you? Who thinks like that? Why would you think I'd do that?" Honestly, I was offended. I've never cheated or anything, and I have to hear my wife call me with this stuff. It seems absurd!

So, she got mad at me because I apparently made her feel stupid for how she felt and because I didn't comfort her or provide her with reassurance that I wouldn't cheat. I'm her HUSBAND who has never cheated, why should I stand to always have to provide "reassurance" I won't cheat??? It just makes me want to tell her NOTHING because I feel I'll then have to defend myself or provide "comfort" over nothing.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

IsGirl3 said:


> THANKS for serving our country.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out why she is mad at you. because you suggested you'd have great sex after taking ambien and she leaped to the conclusion that you'd have an affair while away, so this is all making her feel stupid? Does she always twist things around like this? what happened 1-1/2 months before marriage that the fighting started? are you always on the defensive, or sometimes are you super sensitive about things and blow your cork? is it always her that starts the fights? what's bugging her? there must be something because when things are great, little things roll off your back, but when there's resentment, the littlest thing is cause for a fight.
> 
> ...



Forgot to answer a couple other questions you had...sorry:/

She does twist things quite a bit in a way that puts me in the light of cheating on her. Recently, in a nightclub in Atlanta, she saw me standing at the bar looking around the club, as any normal human being a social setting would do. She took it as me checking out some girl that was dancing, so she walked off and started flirting with a guy. When I approached her and asked what she was doing, she told me she found someone else and we were through and that I was "messing up her game"!!! Unreal! She apologized a LOT the next day and said it was because she was drunk. My stupid butt forgave her. THEN she twisted it on me a couple days later, and she said she felt she didn't know if she could trust me anymore because I might want to get her back for what she did to me! WTF!? How does THAT make any sense? It's almost laughable.

A month and a half before our marriage, I came clean to her about my previous marriage before her. I explained how it was a mistake, and how I'm sorry I didn't mention it to her before. I told her I didn't because I was ashamed of it and because I didn't want her to see me as "damaged goods." I know I wrong for not telling her, but she and I both agreed in our relationship to not speak of our past relationships at all...that was her idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JC, thanks for taking time to respond to my questions. I agree with IsGirl3 that anger and stress like this should not be happening in your honeymoon phase. I also agree with Jack that you seem to be describing a woman who feels a strong need to create drama. Moreover, I am concerned with the weekly fights, irrational jealousy (i.e., strong fear of abandonment and inabilty to trust), and blame-shifting (i.e., playing "The Victim"). 

I therefore ask whether you've seen frequent and strong occurrences of most of the following behaviors. If so, please tell us which ones apply to your situation. If not, please ignore the list.

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
7. Low self esteem;
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't see BPD here. 

What I see is a young woman who is in a new country, which is a major stress in itself. She's recently married, which is another big stress - the first year tends to be the hardest. Whether these stresses contribute to her insecurity or if she's always been insecure is hard to tell, but this insecurity is the root of a lot of what's going on. 

For his part, he's also under stress as a newlywed, and hasn't been sleeping well. While I don't see insecurity in him, I do see defensiveness - he's on the lookout for attacks and perceives them where none is intended. 

Doc gives him meds, and she hears him talking about having sex and not remembering it. She Googles it and finds out that some people have had affairs and blamed this particular medication. She says, "I don't think you should take it." 

In her mind, she may be thinking, "Why do something that could cause problems in our marriage?" This would not be unreasonable for a girl who already thought he was flirting at the bar, and who hears him talking about the potential for having sex and not remembering while on this drug. But instead of finding out what she's really afraid of (does she think he'll cheat? does she think he's introducing a marriage buster to their marriage? is she worried he'll zone out and she'll lose his attention as her mother once ignored her?) he assumes that she's accusing him of cheating and he gets defensive immediately.

JCUSN, I was honestly surprised to hear that you'd be allowed to take Ambien, but I'm not a doc. In any case, I think your marriage would benefit tremendously from you taking a few steps. 

1. Learn to recognize what it feels like right before you get defensive. Do your muscles tighten? Does a pain suddenly appear in your stomach? Perhaps your thoughts suddenly go into speed mode. Whatever it is, learn to recognize it and then make a decision that those particular sensations require a specific set of responses.

2. Your response to those feelings should start with a statement to yourself like, "Before I react, I'm going to make sure I understand what's happening better." 

3. Then start asking questions. "Why is that important to you?" and "What makes you believe that?" are two good ones to keep handy. Use them three or four or five times on topics like these and you'll get down to the real reasons and you'll see her vulnerability instead of her "attack" mode. This will allow you to recognize that it's not YOU that's the problem - it's her own fears.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

JCUSN said:


> So, she got mad at me because I apparently made her feel stupid for how she felt and because I didn't comfort her or provide her with reassurance that I wouldn't cheat. I'm her HUSBAND who has never cheated, why should I stand to always have to provide "reassurance" I won't cheat??? It just makes me want to tell her NOTHING because I feel I'll then have to defend myself or provide "comfort" over nothing.


You have a lot to learn about women, and being a man.

She may be plumb crazy but you are not doing your job here. It would have been such a trifling thing to comfort and re-assure her. Sheesh, talk about a no-brainer. But apparently your ego was too big for this small morsel of consideration to your wife.

You can't imagine how much mileage you get out of validating a woman's feelings. That's the smart thing to do if you want to get laid instead of having a frying pan smack you in the face. 

With her doing the pick-up act with another man... beyond the pale. Not telling her you were married? Incredible. Neither one of you seems ready for marriage.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

Uptown said:


> JC, thanks for taking time to respond to my questions. I agree with IsGirl3 that anger and stress like this should not be happening in your honeymoon phase. I also agree with Jack that you seem to be describing a woman who feels a strong need to create drama. Moreover, I am concerned with the weekly fights, irrational jealousy (i.e., strong fear of abandonment and inabilty to trust), and blame-shifting (i.e., playing "The Victim").
> 
> I therefore ask whether you've seen frequent and strong occurrences of most of the following behaviors. If so, please tell us which ones apply to your situation. If not, please ignore the list.
> 
> ...


The "you always/you never" usage is definitely something that I've noticed. However, once I point out to her that she used that phrase she corrects herself.

I do believe there is irrational jealousy, but she never tries to isolate me or keep me from my friends and family.

Frequently creating drama...oh yes. However, we can usually remember what it was about days or weeks later. We remember it, and we laugh at how stupid it was. One time we actually had a fight because she thought I was going to become a drug addict! I told her about my experiences with drugs back when I was 18-19...just minor youthful experimentation (I'm 30 now), and how I've never touched them since. She was concerned I was going to become a full-blown drug addict out of nowhere! WTH!? lol

Low self-esteem. She'd never admit it, but I think she has it.

And #18. She generally doesn't have real actual evidence to present for her irrational thoughts at all. She builds them up in her mind and that's good enough.

It's just like the example I provided in an Atlanta nightclub. I was doing what every single normal human being (male of female) does in a social situation...I looked around the social setting I was in. That made me guilty of allegedly checking out a girl...which I ABSOLUTELY did not do, let alone flirt with her.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I don't see BPD here.
> 
> What I see is a young woman who is in a new country, which is a major stress in itself. She's recently married, which is another big stress - the first year tends to be the hardest. Whether these stresses contribute to her insecurity or if she's always been insecure is hard to tell, but this insecurity is the root of a lot of what's going on.
> 
> ...


Kathy, thanks for your reply! I agree that we both have new added stress. Her moving here, giving up her job, finding a new one, getting married out-the-blue...HUGE stressors for her. I totally get that. And stress for me as well with the marriage, taking care of someone unemployed (for awhile), immigration issues for her, my job, etc.

I do feel I get defensive about issues like these. In my mind, "Why do I have to explain something so small? Why do I feel like you (her) already think I'm guilty or that I'm going to do something wrong? All I want to do is freaking sleep, and I shouldn't have to go through this just to get that. Why would you even feel I could do something like that to you? This is crazy." This is my internal dialogue. I guess I could understand if I misled her before or cheated on her or something, but I've done nothing to make her think I'd ever stray. So why do I feel like I've got to explain myself for such stupid things?

I'll try asking myself those questions you posted, Kathy. And thanks for that. However, I just know this isn't something I'd be able to do forever. Will I really have to ask myself these questions for the rest of my life? Is something so simple as taking a doc-prescribed medication really going to be such a struggle for the rest of my life?


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> You have a lot to learn about women, and being a man.
> 
> She may be plumb crazy but you are not doing your job here. It would have been such a trifling thing to comfort and re-assure her. Sheesh, talk about a no-brainer. But apparently your ego was too big for this small morsel of consideration to your wife.
> 
> ...


Wiseforit, thanks. While I can't say I liked your post, I do honestly appreciate it and its bluntness.

Maybe you're right, and my ego was too big to give her consideration. But, is this really what marriage is? Is marriage really me always "caving in" and supplicating to what she wants? Is it really okay for her to dream up irrational bull**** in her mind and I just have to deal with it? I'm not being facetious, I'm just genuinely curious.

And it's not about just "getting laid" to me. I want things to be right. I don't want to validate something she's feeling when it is entirely wrong, and frankly, insane.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Marriage is about compromise. It is not about one party always caving in.

However, a lot of heartache can be saved by engaging brain before opening mouth.

If she is prone to getting upset about things why would you even mention a link between Ambien and sex? Who was the one who then moved the conversation to not remembering the sex/Tiger Woods etc? Even if it was her, I am sorry to say that it was you who first brought the link to sex into the conversation. It's hard enough (I imagine) being the wife of a person who may be deployed for long periods without then worrying about Ambien having some weird sexual effect. Stories abound of sexual adventures going on with the armed forces and even if you have given her no reason to suppose there is a risk of you being unfaithful I personally can't blame her for having a spot of worry. 

Rightly or wrongly, you are pretty much her everything just now. She does not have close family, she is in a foreign country.

Did the fighting start before or after you confessed to her about your first marriage? (Incidentally, although you said it was her idea not to talk about past relationships, I don't think that is a reason to justify not telling her you had been married before. A marriage is not just any old relationship and whilst my husband and I have no desire to discuss every last person we may or may not have slept with I would be livid if he had not told me about his first marriage before I had made a decision to move to a foreign country with him.

It sounds like your wife is feeling stressed and insecure. Not necessarily all your fault, or even majorly your fault, but she is the fish out of water here, and you need to make allowances.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Fighting all the time after only 1 yr. of marriage, irrational jealousy, irrational thoughts of you cheating because you take a prescription medication, that ridiculous scene in the club where she told you to leave.........something is mentally wrong with her..........Uptown has given you great advice about BPD.......research bipolar if you see mania & depression.......she also may have an anxiety disorder...nobody here can dx her including you.

Because you are at your wit's end, you can try & suggest she see a doctor is she wants to save the marriage.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

JCUSN said:


> Wiseforit, thanks. While I can't say I liked your post, I do honestly appreciate it and its bluntness.
> 
> Maybe you're right, and my ego was too big to give her consideration. But, is this really what marriage is? Is marriage really me always "caving in" and supplicating to what she wants? Is it really okay for her to dream up irrational bull**** in her mind and I just have to deal with it? I'm not being facetious, I'm just genuinely curious.
> 
> And it's not about just "getting laid" to me. I want things to be right. I don't want to validate something she's feeling when it is entirely wrong, and frankly, insane.


You are viewing marriage as a war instead of a team effort: You against her. So therefore giving her what she wants is "caving in" and "supplicating". As if her making your favorite dinner would be caving in or supplicating instead of just something nice to do for your loved one. 

Feelings are facts. A husband's job is to listen to those feelings and help her get them all out on the table. A smart husband is eager to get those feelings out. You don't worry about whether they are rational or not in this part of the communication process. 

In this case, you fed her this ambien/infidelity link yourself and then attacked her for it. That's more than not being understanding - it is abusive. (Blame the victim). You said she "dreamed it up" after _telling_ her about Tiger Woods, and then her finding more evidence of same after doing something very reasonable: looking up side effects of prescription drugs. She is not insane for this.

I see that being a "right fighter" is fundamental to you. Talk about wrong-headed. 

I am programmed to stay on top of my wife's feelings like a hawk. If I see something developing I am on that in an instant. Get it out honey. I can usually figure it out. But you have to put yourself in your partners shoes and have empathy for them to do it. I would have told mine that her feelings were valid. I understand honey. So what can we do to make you feel more confident while I am away. Videochat before bed? 

What that does is get me laid every day, and we don't have fights. It just doesn't happen. You can mock that and say a marriage is not "just" about getting laid - but who is here with the problem? It isn't me. My marriage is wonderful. This girl knocks herself out for me.

I am not minimizing her behavior. But I clearly see you have ownership here that you need to acknowledge and change your behavior over, no matter what wife you have.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

If my husband was taking a drug that may cause sexual amnesia I might ask him not to take it when he travels either!. 
She's probably insecure, new country, new marriage. 
I'm not sure that by labeling her feelings as irrational bull*&^% really helps the situation. Reassuring her in a calm, loving way when she gets upset is getting it right. "I love you and would never cheat on you" can be enough.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Wiser hit on something I was trying to say earlier but in a much more effective way. 

Also, I agree with Emerald. Anxiety disorder is what comes across most strongly to me, which means that validation and reassurance are part of the package. BPD, maybe, but I don't see it as quite as likely. Bipolar... eh... not enough info to make me lean that way at all. 

Remember that when stress is high, it can literally disable a person's ability to use rational thought. EVERYTHING can become magnified. 

If she does have an anxiety disorder or BPD, then validation and reassurance are a TOP priority, but it sounds like you're unwilling to do this, JCUSN. Only you can decide what's most important to you - your comfort or what's best for the relationship. You can be right, but it may not make you happy. You may have to choose between being right and being happy.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JC, like Emerald and Kathy, I'm not convinced you are describing a strong pattern of BPD traits. You recognized only a few of the 18 BPD traits I listed above. Moreover, you report that your W laughs about her outrageous allegations a few days later -- something that would be unusual for a person with strong BPD traits.

I nonetheless am concerned about the numerous fights and drama that she creates "at the drop of a dime." I also find it worrisome that she had an invalidating childhood due to her mother "shutting her out." Moreover, there is the irrational jealousy that you describe. Hence, although a pattern of strong BPD traits is only a "maybe" -- as Emerald and Kathy say -- I agree with them that such a pattern cannot be ruled out.

It therefore may be worth your while to spend 15 minutes reading my description of BPD traits to see if most of them ring a bell. That description is provided in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Marriage is about compromise. It is not about one party always caving in.
> 
> However, a lot of heartache can be saved by engaging brain before opening mouth.
> 
> ...


I'm the one who brought it up. Hell, I thought it was interesting. And call me crazy, but I thought maybe she and I could even try it and see how it was. I thought one of the pleasures of getting married was being able to experiment with your wife sexually and enjoy each other sexually. The Tiger Woods thing, I thought it was funny. What sort of man blames his infidelity on a sleeping pill? That was my whole view on it.

I know that I should have told her earlier about my past marriage, and that was definitely a huge mistake. I can't really remember the amount of fighting before that, but I know we did fight. If I had to guess, I'd say the fighting went up from when I told her. Then again, the fighting has been increasing steadily for awhile.

I understand I need to give allowances. I really do. But I just hate having to be on edge about any little thing I say and how she will spin it to having something to do with me being unfaithful or untrustworthy. That's no way to live.



Emerald said:


> Fighting all the time after only 1 yr. of marriage, irrational jealousy, irrational thoughts of you cheating because you take a prescription medication, that ridiculous scene in the club where she told you to leave.........something is mentally wrong with her..........Uptown has given you great advice about BPD.......research bipolar if you see mania & depression.......she also may have an anxiety disorder...nobody here can dx her including you.
> 
> Because you are at your wit's end, you can try & suggest she see a doctor is she wants to save the marriage.


I don't want to put a label on her or anything like that, but maybe she should see someone. I know there is NO WAY I could tell her that though, or she would lose it and say there is something wrong with me. What can I do?


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> You are viewing marriage as a war instead of a team effort: You against her. So therefore giving her what she wants is "caving in" and "supplicating". As if her making your favorite dinner would be caving in or supplicating instead of just something nice to do for your loved one.
> 
> Feelings are facts. A husband's job is to listen to those feelings and help her get them all out on the table. A smart husband is eager to get those feelings out. You don't worry about whether they are rational or not in this part of the communication process.
> 
> ...


Thanks, again, for your reply. I'm grasping what you're saying, but I just don't know if I'm onboard entirely.

So I need to validate what she's saying and make her feel like it makes sense, even when it is irrational? Doesn't that reinforce her irrational thinking? Is that really how marriage is going to be for us? Just a mix of her coming up with irrational thoughts and me having to tell her it's okay?

Forgive me if I sound dense...I'm just trying to learn and figure this out.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Navy submariner vet here. 

Everything you described from the foreign wife who was too good to be true to the whirlwind romance, fights that make you think you're a [email protected] for having boundaries, and sleepless night worrying over your marriage, everything is exactly what I went through. The only difference is I never qualified and got out to be with her. *BIG f*cking mistake!*

I'm not going to break this down word for word with you, because to be a pilot you have to be really smart and tough to begin with. I can and will if you want, no problem. All I'm going to say right now is *listen to your chiefs and superiors.* Ok got that? These men have been through terrible marriages of their own, and in their own toothless shark and goat-speak will warn you of what's to come next. 

After having my wife, who was all about starting fights about me talking to other women, cheat on me three weeks after I got out to punish me for not doing anything and everything she wanted, I really wished I had stayed in and divorced her crazy ass. And we weren't even married a year and half at that point! 

You probably won't hear a lot of people talk about the timeline for the honeymoon, but it usually ends after about a year and you start having normal couple fights. Notice how I said "normal"? Fighting with you over supposed situations where you would cheat on her is not sweet, it's not a declaration of how powerful her love is for you, it's not because she loves you, it is *controlling.*

I assure you if she's this worried about you cheating, it's because she knows she can't be trusted and will cheat herself. And you have to be prepared for that, not only with your job but also seeing how she's treating you *RIGHT NOW!* 

You can blame yourself when that happens, maybe get kicked out under a medical discharge, which is honorable, and see just how bad she gets when she can't blame her actions on your job or your sleeping meds. You can do that, or you can divorce her immediately, retain your dignity, keep your job and you service contact, and think about dating again when your enlistment period ends. 

You may not like what I have to say, you may not what to hear it, and think I'm being as gentle as I can, but I speak to you with experience from the other side. You think your wife is bad now? Wait until after you get out when you're living alone together in a crappy little apartment that is all you can afford in the meantime, and she's doing everything she can to make you feel like a failure and threatening to leave you for someone else. If she's cutting off sex now, just wait.... It gets a lot *LOT* worse.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

JCUSN said:


> So I need to validate what she's saying and make her feel like it makes sense, even when it is irrational? Doesn't that reinforce her irrational thinking? Is that really how marriage is going to be for us? Just a mix of her coming up with irrational thoughts and me having to tell her it's okay?


That was a perfect example of stubborn refusal to show empathy, and the superimposition of your own ego instead.

I can imagine how your "apologies" go: "I'm sorry but you deserved it" or "I'm sorry you are so stupid".

I'd venture to say you aren't very good with animals either.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> That was a perfect example of stubborn refusal to show empathy, and the superimposition of your own ego instead.
> 
> I can imagine how your "apologies" go: "I'm sorry but you deserved it" or "I'm sorry you are so stupid".
> 
> I'd venture to say you aren't very good with animals either.


That was uncalled for!

Your marriage is not his marriage, and you are not a licensed marriage counselor. You have no right to tell him what he should or should not do in his marriage if you've never walked a mile in his shoes. And until you serve in the Navy yourself, you will never know what he's going through. You have a happy marriage, he's just realizing his may not be that way, and the path from misery to splendor in relationships *is not* going to be fixed that easily with a few choice words from a "happy couple".


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Your marriage is not his marriage, and you are not a licensed marriage counselor.You have no right to tell him what he should or should not do in his marriage


I'm very happily married to a foreigner I met overseas and immigrated, which is more than either of you can say. I have been on a foreign marriage forum for over six years so this is actually something I am pretty handy at.

This relationship has huge red flags like rushing into marriage without knowing each other - to the extent of not even telling her he had been previously married. 

I've acknowledged her behavior is deplorable but he has to own up to his own behavior because that is all he can control.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

IsGirl3 said:


> If you are always wrong, always the bad guy, always the cause of her misery, walking on eggshells because you never know what is going to set her off, and if counseling doesn't help, then I'm afraid you two were not meant to be.


Man I wish someone told me this way back when....


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JCUSN said:


> I don't want to put a label on her or anything like that.


JC, if you want to know what you likely are dealing with, it is very useful to have a label -- i.e., the name that professionals use to designate the behavioral pattern. With the label, you can unlock a world of important online information. Google doesn't work too well without labels. 

If your W exhibits strong traits of bipolar behavior, for example, she probably can control her moodiness by simply swallowing a pill. Yet, if her issues arise from strong traits of BPD or another personality disorder, many years of intensive therapy would be required because medication cannot touch the underlying issues.


> Is that really how marriage is going to be for us? Just a mix of her coming up with irrational thoughts and me having to tell her it's okay?


I agree with Wiser that, if your W is emotionally healthy or has only moderate traits of a personality disorder, validation of her feelings and thoughts is important for strengthening your marriage. If she has strong traits of BPD, however, validation by itself won't accomplish much. 

Strong BPD traits are notorious for creating "irrational thoughts" -- as you say -- because they distort the BPDer's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. It therefore is common for a BPDer to make irrational claims and to sincerely believe that such claims MUST be true. And then, a week or two later, a BPDer may sincerely believe the exact opposite.

My BPDer exW, for example, would flip into a jealous hissy fit if she noticed me walking two feet ahead of her on the sidewalk (indicating, she believed, that I did not want to be with her) -- or if she caught me looking at another woman for 3/4 second instead of a half-second (indicating that I found the other woman more attractive than her). 

Hence, although I remain skeptical your W has strong BPD traits, I again suggest that you follow the link I provided above for my other post. If I were in your situation, one of the first things I would check -- with the hopes of ruling it out -- are the warning signs for having strong BPD traits.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

JCUSN said:


> Thanks, again, for your reply. I'm grasping what you're saying, but I just don't know if I'm onboard entirely.
> 
> So I need to validate what she's saying and make her feel like it makes sense, even when it is irrational? Doesn't that reinforce her irrational thinking? Is that really how marriage is going to be for us? Just a mix of her coming up with irrational thoughts and me having to tell her it's okay?
> 
> Forgive me if I sound dense...I'm just trying to learn and figure this out.


I can understand how hard it can be to reconcile the idea of validating with an aversion to rewarding dysfunctional behavior. In fact, it's so difficult that I think few people *can* achieve it in an intimate relationship if they're not already very emotionally compatible. Keep in mind that when couples argue, quite often they both have similar complaints about each other. You think she's making up crazy stuff, and she may think you're crazy for not being able to understand the points she's trying to make. You both probably feel like the other isn't listening well.

It'll be important for you to validate HER, but this doesn't mean you have to agree with her. It means you look for valid (root word of validate) reasons for her to feel the way she does. So the bar scene, for instance... you're not doing anything wrong and she gets upset and claims something that you know is untrue (flirting with women). You might first ask "What led you to believe I'm flirting with someone?" Take your time and make sure you COMPLETELY understand what she is saying. 

When you think you understand, you paraphase it and check if your understanding is what she intended you to hear. "So, you thought I was flirting because there were some women somewhere in the direction I was looking and you felt like I was ignoring you. Is that correct?" 

You may go through a couple times of her saying no, and trying to clarify. Keep going through this until she agrees that you've come to understand what she is trying to say. You still are not replying to or defending your actions. You're JUST actively listening. 

Once she confirms that you've heard her accurately, you have one more step before you start stating your position. (You may not even have to state your position - she may talk herself over to your side through this first process, because "not being heard" may equal "not being loved" in her mind, given her background. By hearing her, she may feel more loved and self-soothe as she goes through all this.)

Anyway, before you state your position, start letting her know what IS valid about what she has said. "I can see where it may have looked like I was checking out other women if that group you mentioned was standing by the dance floor, and I can understand why you felt threatened." 

NOW you can begin to _negotiate_ rather than argue. "However, I feel blamed for something that I don't believe I was doing, and it makes me want to avoid going out with you to places like that because I'm worried you'll get mad at me over something innocent. Does that make sense to you? I would like you to withhold accusations unless you have proof that I'm betraying our marriage." 

Warning - this isn't an easy thing to learn how to do. It takes a lot of practice, and there are going to many backslides along the way. But if you can master it, you'll find that your ability to validate HER without automatically agreeing to what she's saying will give you powerful tools for making your relationship better.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

"A month and a half before our marriage, I came clean to her about my previous marriage before her. I explained how it was a mistake, and how I'm sorry I didn't mention it to her before. I told her I didn't because I was ashamed of it and because I didn't want her to see me as "damaged goods." I know I wrong for not telling her, but she and I both agreed in our relationship to not speak of our past relationships at all...that was her idea."

Did you all miss this part? I can't help but think that her irrational behavior may have something to do with this!

OP, this was a huge lie of omission on your part. No wonder she's having problems trusting you now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

"A month and a half before our marriage, I came clean to her about my previous marriage before her. I explained how it was a mistake, and how I'm sorry I didn't mention it to her before. I told her I didn't because I was ashamed of it and because I didn't want her to see me as "damaged goods." I know I wrong for not telling her, but she and I both agreed in our relationship to not speak of our past relationships at all...*that was her idea.*"

If it was her idea to rug sweep everything from her past then, and she's making you feel like you have to be transparent with her now.... Just what is she hiding in the first place?

Sorry to argue with all of the happy married people, newly weds, and all the morons who think their marriage is the exceptions and you're just some bully to a sweet and innocent wife. It's just if she's making these rules to begin with, how do you know she is who she says she is? 

You need to do some digging buddy, because she could be talking with her OM/OW online, or f*cking him when you're on missions, and then lying to your face and making you fess up about every woman you brushed elbows with in the chow hall to keep from feeling guilty herself.


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## JCUSN (Jun 8, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I can understand how hard it can be to reconcile the idea of validating with an aversion to rewarding dysfunctional behavior. In fact, it's so difficult that I think few people *can* achieve it in an intimate relationship if they're not already very emotionally compatible. Keep in mind that when couples argue, quite often they both have similar complaints about each other. You think she's making up crazy stuff, and she may think you're crazy for not being able to understand the points she's trying to make. You both probably feel like the other isn't listening well.
> 
> It'll be important for you to validate HER, but this doesn't mean you have to agree with her. It means you look for valid (root word of validate) reasons for her to feel the way she does. So the bar scene, for instance... you're not doing anything wrong and she gets upset and claims something that you know is untrue (flirting with women). You might first ask "What led you to believe I'm flirting with someone?" Take your time and make sure you COMPLETELY understand what she is saying.
> 
> ...



Kathy, thank you so much for this post. This has really got me looking in the right direction I think. I still have a few questions though, if you don't mind.

When I start asking "what makes you think I was doing this or that?" I know she'll respond with something like "I watched you! I saw you! I KNOW you were!" She'll say that and she'll say it with such conviction, and at times won't even give me a chance to speak. When she takes such a stern position, do I really just have to stand there and get belittled by her and be TOLD what I was doing, even though I really wasn't?


Uptown...I haven't forgotten you, I just haven't been able to entirely read that post you mentioned. I have another flight mission today I've been prepping for:/. Thank you!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

JCUSN said:


> Kathy, thank you so much for this post. This has really got me looking in the right direction I think. I still have a few questions though, if you don't mind.
> 
> When I start asking "what makes you think I was doing this or that?" I know she'll respond with something like "I watched you! I saw you! I KNOW you were!" She'll say that and she'll say it with such conviction, and at times won't even give me a chance to speak. When she takes such a stern position, do I really just have to stand there and get belittled by her and be TOLD what I was doing, even though I really wasn't?
> 
> ...


"I understand that you saw something that you thought was suspicious, but I'm not sure what exactly you saw. Can you give me examples of what you felt was inappropriate?" 

It can be helpful to avoid the word "why" when asking these questions because it can provoke defensive feelings. One good phrase to ask several times when she does give answers you understand is "what's important to you about (whatever she's claiming is right)?"

Yes, let her use her belittling ways of talking at first. Remind yourself that she doesn't know what she's doing to you as she goes through this. At a separate time, when things are calm, write her a letter that spells out how it hurts you. Tell her it makes you feel like less of a man, and you don't want that in your life and feel like you're in a personal struggle over it. Avoid blame when you do it. In fact, one of the things that keeps my relationship good is that we have an agreement that we will not be blameful to each other. Sometimes we slip, but a simple reminder usually gets us back on track.


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## Hausfrau (Sep 18, 2010)

I've been married for21 years. My husband is a naval officer. I've seen marriages like you're describing a million times. Here's the thing: the military makes marriage even harder than it already is. You have weird hours and long separations. Neither of you have the support of old friends or family close by. The demands of military service mean that your loyalties are divided, and your wife knows that. You're both going to have to work hard to make your relationship successful.

First of all, as another poster said, try to show some empathy. Don't worry so much about "validating irrational fears." EVERYBODY has irrational thoughts and fears sometimes...so what? As her loving and intimate partner, your job is to listen, support, and reassure. When you, instead, respond with derision and anger, how do you think she will react? That type of attitude can only escalate the situation and show her that you can't be trusted with her deepest thoughts and fears.

Also, understand that you are still earning her trust. You haven't been together so long in the grand scheme of things, and you seriously undermined any trust you had built with your lie about a previous marriage. Add that to the fact that she's given up almost everything to be with you, it's no wonder she feels like she's in a pretty insecure position right now. Once again, have some empathy for her. 

From the tone of your previous posts, I'm imagining you thinking "why should I have to work so hard/put up with so much" to have a happy marriage? The answer: because you married an imperfect human being. (And so did she). She will always do things you don't understand and say things you think are stupid and make choices that leave you shaking your head. You need to learn to pick your battles....and then let the rest go....and to love and support her in spite of her flaws.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> "A month and a half before our marriage, I came clean to her about my previous marriage before her. I explained how it was a mistake, and how I'm sorry I didn't mention it to her before. I told her I didn't because I was ashamed of it and because I didn't want her to see me as "damaged goods." I know I wrong for not telling her, but she and I both agreed in our relationship to not speak of our past relationships at all...*that was her idea.*"


Blaming her for not divulging he was married before. 

He was careful not to state that he withheld this from her until she had quit her job, moved to the U.S. and become totally reliant upon him as an immigrant without the right to work, and without family or friends here for support.

The rationalization was "I lied to manipulate you". 

We see this on immigration fora, and the general rule for the immigrant is to run from a person who has done this to you. They feel like they are in a real bind though because they have cut all ties to their home, they don't have work in either place, are not eligible for public support, have no family or friends to stay with, and the shame they face returning home and admitting they made this huge mistake is too much for some to bear - and the only thing they can legally do under the terms of their visa is marry the US citizen. 

But if they've lied about something this enormous then there isn't any doubt they have lied about other things too and it is only going to get worse for the immigrant, so we counsel them to return and face the lesser evils in their home country. 




> If it was her idea to rug sweep everything from her past then, and she's making you feel like you have to be transparent with her now.... Just what is she hiding in the first place?
> 
> Sorry to argue with all of the happy married people, newly weds, and all the morons who think their marriage is the exceptions and you're just some bully to a sweet and innocent wife. It's just if she's making these rules to begin with, how do you know she is who she says she is?
> 
> You need to do some digging buddy, because she could be talking with her OM/OW online, or f*cking him when you're on missions, and then lying to your face and making you fess up about every woman you brushed elbows with in the chow hall to keep from feeling guilty herself.


He has no idea who she is. He's actually done the opposite of what we recommend on immigration fora - you are supposed to learn everything about your foreign spouse's past instead of agreeing not to get to know one another. :scratchhead:

The one thing we do know is that he omits major pertinent information and tells stories in a way that favors himself. 

And we are in a situation where the story is basically "I got married quick, neither of us knows each other, and we fight all the time... what should we do?"

The answer is that you shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. So what can you really accomplish in such a situation? We can't blame this on the Navy. 

In terms of what I am saying it is to work on his personal skills like empathy and honesty because no matter what happens with his marriage those are crucial aspects of his character that must be developed.


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