# Child working under the table...



## samyeagar

Long story short...

My ex wife has custody of the kids. My oldest son is 18 and just graduated from high school. I petitioned the court to lower my child support. My ex filed a motion to stay the reduction and it was granted pending a decision on whether or not I am to pay for his college expenses. Part of the process...My attorney filed a discovery order requesting various things including my son's tax returns, bank records, and pay stubs. My ex wife just called me wanting me to withdraw the discovery request because my son has been working under the table, can not produce any of the documents, nor has he filed a tax return. I have no idea how much he has actually earned. He has been "employed" for a year beginning when he was 17. He has been living with her the whole time.

I guess my question is this...any ideas on how this will affect things like child support, alimony and such? Can this actually have any real leverage? I am waiting to hear back from my attorney, so I already have that ball rolling.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

In most states you cannot be ordered to pay college costs at all.
Also, in most states there is no child support after the child has turned 18 and graduated from high school.
Additionally, it is illegal to not pay income tax.
He might as well realize that he is going to have to pay income tax. 
I suggest finding out who he worked for under the table, and subpoena that person/organization for the employee records
Your child should not be working under the table. This deprives him of valuable tax credits if he files on his own, also Social Security disability coverage, and OSHA protection, and unemployment benefits. WTF?
I realize a lot of people do work under the table, but come on, a 17 year old living at home, why would you even need to do that? Why would your ex even advise him to do so?
Who cares if there are penalties, chances your ex claimed him on her income tax. Let her and him face the consequences, they are adults. I would not accommodate her request at all. I would insist on getting employment records from the employer.

Nice that your son has a job though.


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## Bobby5000

Presumably your son will get fired and be very mad at you. Try to work this out and not put your kid in the middle.


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## alphaomega

The kids already in the middle. The ex just made sure of that.

It depends on whether you want to basically double subsidize your kids job. He's getting paid under the table, and then you may also have to keep paying child support, possibly.

The simplest solution is to make a counter request to the ex. Withdraw her child support petition and you'll withdrawl your discovery request.


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## alphaomega

The kids going to learn some facts of life the hard way, in this instance. The main one being....pay your taxes. It my come back and bite you in the ass.

Yes, he may be angry at you, but he's the one responsible for his decision to get paid under the table. But being an 18 year old, he's probably just going to blame you and not take any responsibility. That's just what most kids do, really, and some adults....this board is full of stories of adults who don't....


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## Holland

The norm here is that when kids finish Secondary but are going onto further education while living at home, the paying parent then pays the child, not the other parent. I fully support this way of doing things.

The custodial parent can choose to charge the child board but that would be the same in a one household family anyway.

Sam I believe that just because a child reaches a certain age does not mean that you no longer have a financial obligation especially if they are still studying. If you paid him the support instead then it could avoid you and him having a falling out.


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## honcho

Once the child turns 18 child support ends. The child is now a legal adult and is free to make own choices. You are not legally required to pay for college, she has no basis for the petition. He can move into his own place, get a job, go to college, join military, get married. Its his choice after the “magic birthday”. 

Makes no difference if the child made 5000 or 50000 even as a minor. You have been paying support to her for his care, legally he no longer needs care. If you are paying a combination alimony/child support she may have an angle depending on the percentages and differences in your income vs hers. Sounds like she is more asking for an increase in alimony to make up for the reduction you have asked for in child support.


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## Cooper

I agree that your financial obligation is done, unless something was spelled out in the divorce decree you are under no obligation to pay for his college. The nice thing at this point is if you WANT to help him with college the ex is out of the equation, you can work directly with your son and the school and then you know for sure the cost and where the money is actually going.

As for your sons job....I wouldn't cause a big flap about that, lots of people work under the table at some time in their lives. What I would do is encourage him to find a legitimate job and explain the reasons to him, things like legal tax obligations and proof of earnings, establishing a provable work history for future loans, health benefits, social security benefits, workers comp and even unemployment. It's time he learns how life works, a job working under the table puts cash in your pocket but offers little long term.

Also like I stated earlier, your ex is out of the picture at this point, ALL conversations about your son should be with him and him only, don't let the ex intimidate or manipulate either of you.


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## samyeagar

While I do agree that my obligation to my children does not necessarily end as soon as they are 18 and graduated high school, my son has been fully no contact with me for the better part of the last year. I have, and continue to reach out to him, calling and texting several times a week just letting him know I'm thinking about him, how he's doing. I've sent letters, birthday, christmas cards. All met with silence. Also currently, 75% of my gross income goes to that household in child support, alimony, and paying for their vehicle.

It is standard what I did to file for the reduction in child support when he graduated. My ex opposed the reduction and countered requesting college costs. My discovery was also standard because my son should also have some contribution to his college costs. That's where this all blew up. I did offer my ex that if she withdrew her request for college costs, my discovery would end. She refused and still expects me to withdraw my request. That's just not right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

As Conrad used to say tell her "I'm sorry you feel this way. "


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## DoF

Sorry double post


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## DoF

samyeagar said:


> Long story short...
> 
> My ex wife has custody of the kids. My oldest son is 18 and just graduated from high school. I petitioned the court to lower my child support. My ex filed a motion to stay the reduction and it was granted pending a decision on whether or not I am to pay for his college expenses.


Wait a min. He is 18 and you still have to pay child support? How is that.

And paying college expenses too? WTF? That is just ridicules.



samyeagar said:


> Part of the process...My attorney filed a discovery order requesting various things including my son's tax returns, bank records, and pay stubs. My ex wife just called me wanting me to withdraw the discovery request because my son has been working under the table, can not produce any of the documents, nor has he filed a tax return. I have no idea how much he has actually earned. He has been "employed" for a year beginning when he was 17. He has been living with her the whole time.
> 
> I guess my question is this...any ideas on how this will affect things like child support, alimony and such? Can this actually have any real leverage? I am waiting to hear back from my attorney, so I already have that ball rolling.


At 18 you shouldn't be responsible for child support OR college expenses. Any court/judge that rules against that is out of their efin minds and any law that dictates that is simply stupid.

Sorry, I have nothing.



samyeagar said:


> While I do agree that my obligation to my children does not necessarily end as soon as they are 18 and graduated high school, my son has been fully no contact with me for the better part of the last year. I have, and continue to reach out to him, calling and texting several times a week just letting him know I'm thinking about him, how he's doing. I've sent letters, birthday, christmas cards. All met with silence.


THIS ALONE should certainly be your leverage...



samyeagar said:


> It is standard what I did to file for the reduction in child support when he graduated. My ex opposed the reduction and countered requesting college costs. My discovery was also standard because my son should also have some contribution to his college costs. That's where this all blew up. I did offer my ex that if she withdrew her request for college costs, my discovery would end. She refused and still expects me to withdraw my request. That's just not right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This lady clearly brainwashed your child and wants the cake too.

NO WAY IN HELL, fight this. Has she been dating or any other man moved in. I know your alimony can be withdrawn as well in some cases if another man is present.....but it depends on state laws/agreement.


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## samyeagar

My ex wife is NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and for those that actually know what that is, that should give a little perspective of what I am up against.

Family court in my state does give judges latitude to extend child support beyond 18 and high school if the child is going to remain a dependent while going to college, and can indeed order a parent to pay for said college. The standard outcome is that each parent is responsible for 1/3 of the cost, and the child is responsible for 1/3 of the cost. My discovery was to demonstrate my son's ability to provide that 1/3 for himself. We requested things such as what schools he applied to and what schools he was accepted to. His applications for financial aid including his FAFSA form, federal loans, pell grants, etc, as well as his employment records and tax returns. That is where the issue comes in...if one has not been paying their taxes and it is found out, they are not eligible for any federal, and in my state, any state assistance until all taxes, penalties and fees are paid, so basically what they are expecting me to do is pick up the slack for their own illegal activities.

My STBW is and has been friends with him on Facebook for a while now, and we did find posts where he talks about his job there, and he listed himself as employed there. I got screen caps so if they try and deny it, that may be enough to continue this with probable cause to investigate, or show that they are perjuring themselves.


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## Caribbean Man

samyeagar said:


> While I do agree that my obligation to my children does not necessarily end as soon as they are 18 and graduated high school, my son has been fully no contact with me for the better part of the last year. I have, and continue to reach out to him, calling and texting several times a week just letting him know I'm thinking about him, how he's doing. I've sent letters, birthday, christmas cards. All met with silence. Also currently, 75% of my gross income goes to that household in child support, alimony, and paying for their vehicle.
> 
> It is standard what I did to file for the reduction in child support when he graduated. My ex opposed the reduction and countered requesting college costs. My discovery was also standard because my son should also have some contribution to his college costs. That's where this all blew up. I did offer my ex that if she withdrew her request for college costs, my discovery would end. * She refused and still expects me to withdraw my request. That's just not right.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I have no experience with this, but something just occurred to me.

Based on what you posted here, it seems to me that you were right about your ex wife.
Her actions has all the marks of a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Also seems as if she has your son fully under her clutches and true to form, she has turned him against you , in spite of the fact that you've supported him and tried to make contact.
All textbook narcissist moves.

Only advice I can give is for you to keep trying to get through to your son , because he has a lot to learn about life.
Chances are that he will choose a woman just like his mother as a life partner.
Therein lies the danger.


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## Caribbean Man

Lol, seems like we were typing and posting at the same time!


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## chillymorn

I would play hardball. your child won't even acknowledge your existance.

I would tell my lawyer time to play hardball.

your xwife has taugh your children to be just like her.


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## Caribbean Man

chillymorn said:


> your xwife has taugh your children to be just like her.


Yup.

And that's the sad part.


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## samyeagar

It's tough watching your son walk across the stage and get his diploma knowing he's just as much a stranger as the 400 other kids doing the same.


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## Anon Pink

Sam, would it be possible, or even advisable to discuss this with your son? To let him know that his lack of taxes will get discovered and he will have to pay back taxes, and not be eligible for pell grants until the taxes are paid? To let him know that had you two been in contact you would have urged him not to be employed under the table?

God I feel so bad for you. My late brother went through absolute hell with his son due to psycho-b!tch ex before he died.

There is a special place in hell for parents who do this to their kids!


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## PBear

My thoughts. Don't do anything till you talk to your lawyer. But I'd think that you should leave your petition to reduce support in place.

He is your son, but it sounds like that's a biological relationship, not an emotional one, by his choice. Now he and your ex get to pay the price for that choice. I'm not saying that to encourage you to be vindictive. If he choices to rebuild a relationship with you, be open to it. But there's no reason for you to be an ATM for them. 

C


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## 3Xnocharm

Child support is to continue if the child is a full time student. I think it goes until 21.


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## DoF

Caribbean Man said:


> I have no experience with this, but something just occurred to me.
> 
> Based on what you posted here, it seems to me that you were right about your ex wife.
> Her actions has all the marks of a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
> Also seems as if she has your son fully under her clutches and true to form, she has turned him against you , in spite of the fact that you've supported him and tried to make contact.
> All textbook narcissist moves.
> 
> Only advice I can give is for you to keep trying to get through to your son , because he has a lot to learn about life.
> Chances are that he will choose a woman just like his mother as a life partner.
> Therein lies the danger.



My advice would be to prove to the court that your ex has turned him against you and is incapable mentaly to raise a child.

Then request custody and make HER pay for child support/college.


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## DoF

3Xnocharm said:


> Child support is to continue if the child is a full time student. I think it goes until 21.


Still doesn't make sense.

At 18 he is an adult that can sign up for army......yet he needs to rely on his parents?

This justice system is so screwed up. Unreal.


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## survivorwife

samyeagar said:


> My ex wife is NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and for those that actually know what that is, that should give a little perspective of what I am up against.
> 
> Family court in my state does give judges latitude to extend child support beyond 18 and high school if the child is going to remain a dependent while going to college, and can indeed order a parent to pay for said college. The standard outcome is that each parent is responsible for 1/3 of the cost, and the child is responsible for 1/3 of the cost. My discovery was to demonstrate my son's ability to provide that 1/3 for himself. We requested things such as what schools he applied to and what schools he was accepted to. His applications for financial aid including his FAFSA form, federal loans, pell grants, etc, as well as his employment records and tax returns. That is where the issue comes in...if one has not been paying their taxes and it is found out, they are not eligible for any federal, and in my state, any state assistance until all taxes, penalties and fees are paid, so basically what they are expecting me to do is pick up the slack for their own illegal activities.
> 
> My STBW is and has been friends with him on Facebook for a while now, and we did find posts where he talks about his job there, and he listed himself as employed there. I got screen caps so if they try and deny it, that may be enough to continue this with probable cause to investigate, or show that they are perjuring themselves.


All financial issues aside (for the moment), your job as a parent is to raise your children to be responsible, productive, independent adults. Since this is about your son, then part of that growing up process is to make informed decisions and learn to live with the consequences of those decisions. To work "under the table" means to avoid paying taxes and to have no legitimate work history. Even the "self-employed" are required to file tax returns on their incomes.

One of the consequences of deciding to work "under the table" is what you now are dealing with. His decision is his own, but that doesn't require you to pony up your own funds for his education when he is perfectly capable of funding his own education. That is an adult responsible for which you could teach him.

I have a son in college now, and am not in a financial situation where I can pay for that education, so my son applied for the FAFSA assistance. He also has a job, an apartment he rents, and is "self-supporting". I do sent him money now and then, but he is learning not to depend on that help and makes his financial decision based on what *he* can afford.

I would suggest that you proceed as planned and let the chips fall where they may. It will be an education for your son, and your ex, and teach your son financial responsibility and independence. This really isn't about what your Ex wants, and although I can understand your son wanting the financial help from you, you can always decrease the child support in the court system and give him some money directly to him as needed, which puts you in control of what you do with your money.


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## DoF

survivorwife said:


> All financial issues aside (for the moment), your job as a parent is to raise your children to be responsible, productive, independent adults. Since this is about your son, then part of that growing up process is to make informed decisions and learn to live with the consequences of those decisions. To work "under the table" means to avoid paying taxes and to have no legitimate work history. Even the "self-employed" are required to file tax returns on their incomes.
> 
> One of the consequences of deciding to work "under the table" is what you now are dealing with. His decision is his own, but that doesn't require you to pony up your own funds for his education when he is perfectly capable of funding his own education. That is an adult responsible for which you could teach him.
> 
> I have a son in college now, and am not in a financial situation where I can pay for that education, so my son applied for the FAFSA assistance. He also has a job, an apartment he rents, and is "self-supporting". I do sent him money now and then, but he is learning not to depend on that help and makes his financial decision based on what *he* can afford.
> 
> I would suggest that you proceed as planned and let the chips fall where they may. It will be an education for your son, and your ex, and teach your son financial responsibility and independence. This really isn't about what your Ex wants, and although I can understand your son wanting the financial help from you, you can always decrease the child support in the court system and give him some money directly to him as needed, which puts you in control of what you do with your money.


Problem is, he has been completely disabled from being a father (thanks to mom and his son's act).

To ME, he shouldn't even have to pay ANYTHING if above stands.

He can't teach his son ANYTHING under current conditions.


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## samyeagar

DoF said:


> My advice would be to prove to the court that your ex has turned him against you and is incapable mentaly to raise a child.
> 
> Then request custody and make HER pay for child support/college.


Easier said than done. You should look up trying to prove and win a Parental Alienation case...and even after the years and hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to possibly win...is the damage it causes worth it?

Trust me, I'm not blind to what is happening and have looked quite deeply into it.


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## dubsey

I'd keep pursuing, and when you talk to the ex, just say you're more than willing to help out with college, but on your terms.

If your son wants to give you the FU, then he's making his choices as well. College isn't a right.


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## DoF

samyeagar said:


> Easier said than done. You should look up trying to prove and win a Parental Alienation case...and even after the years and hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to possibly win...is the damage it causes worth it?
> 
> Trust me, I'm not blind to what is happening and have looked quite deeply into it.


More proof that our justice system is completely screwed up.

So sad


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## survivorwife

DoF said:


> Problem is, he has been completely disabled from being a father (thanks to mom and his son's act).
> 
> To ME, he shouldn't even have to pay ANYTHING if above stands.
> 
> He can't teach his son ANYTHING under current conditions.


I agree with you. He shouldn't have to pay anything and should proceed with the process.

And yes, he can't teach his son anything under the current conditions - except independence. 

You see, up until now they (the ex and child) have accepted his financial support and used those money to the point of relying on it. They want it to continue, obviously. However, if those funds cease to come in, they both will have to adjust their thinking on how to financially proceed with their plans without "Dad's money" - hence the "education" about financial responsibility falls upon them and not Dad.


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## tom67

DoF said:


> More proof that our justice system is completely screwed up.
> 
> So sad


:iagree:
It's like making a guy pay for someone elses kid ugh.


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## Dad&Hubby

honcho said:


> Once the child turns 18 child support ends. The child is now a legal adult and is free to make own choices. *You are not legally required to pay for college*, she has no basis for the petition. He can move into his own place, get a job, go to college, join military, get married. Its his choice after the “magic birthday”.
> 
> Makes no difference if the child made 5000 or 50000 even as a minor. You have been paying support to her for his care, legally he no longer needs care. If you are paying a combination alimony/child support she may have an angle depending on the percentages and differences in your income vs hers. Sounds like she is more asking for an increase in alimony to make up for the reduction you have asked for in child support.


The bolded statement is not correct for all states. You need to research the laws in each state. I believe there are 16 states that classify children of divorced parents as "disadvantaged" individuals because they don't have the same "advantages" of children who have both parents. This is the case in the state I live in. My oldest is going into his senior year of high school next year (but will graduate at 17 so that's different). He'll turn 18 as a freshman in college. That said....

In the state I live in, they put into the divorce decree that I'm responsible for half of his college costs, regardless of my financial or the family's financial circumstances. They do this because as I stated above, he's a "disadvantaged individual". It's completely bogus and against the constitution but it's still the law. I haven't broached the topic with my ex, but I won't be able afford to pay half of his college costs.


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## DoF

Dad&Hubby said:


> The bolded statement is not correct for all states. You need to research the laws in each state. I believe there are 16 states that classify children of divorced parents as "disadvantaged" individuals because they don't have the same "advantages" of children who have both parents. This is the case in the state I live in. My oldest is going into his senior year of high school next year (but will graduate at 17 so that's different). He'll turn 18 as a freshman in college. That said....
> 
> In the state I live in, they put into the divorce decree that I'm responsible for half of his college costs, regardless of my financial or the family's financial circumstances. They do this because as I stated above, he's a "disadvantaged individual". It's completely bogus and against the constitution but it's still the law. I haven't broached the topic with my ex, but I won't be able afford to pay half of his college costs.


No, they do this to force kids into college (business reasons) and get parents to pay for it!!!

Going to college is a privilege for certain kids that excel in education and can benefit from it.

Unfortunately it has become the new high school diploma and they tell EVERY kid to go so that more money is extracted from their parents or simply give out loans to kids.

And you want a worthless art degree? Sure here is the check.

:scratchhead:

I won't even get into the fact that many kids that are getting GOOD degrees cannot find a job or pay for their loans.


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## samyeagar

Dad&Hubby said:


> The bolded statement is not correct for all states. You need to research the laws in each state. I believe there are 16 states that classify children of divorced parents as "disadvantaged" individuals because they don't have the same "advantages" of children who have both parents. This is the case in the state I live in. My oldest is going into his senior year of high school next year (but will graduate at 17 so that's different). He'll turn 18 as a freshman in college. That said....
> 
> In the state I live in, they put into the divorce decree that I'm responsible for half of his college costs, regardless of my financial or the family's financial circumstances. They do this because as I stated above, he's a "disadvantaged individual". It's completely bogus and against the constitution but it's still the law. I haven't broached the topic with my ex, but I won't be able afford to pay half of his college costs.


That is what I am facing right now. There just simply is not enough money to do it, and that is not just whistlin' dixie. Add on even a third of the college costs and I will be paying more than I am earning. 

To put it in perspective right now...between child support for three kids, spousal maintenance, and their van payment...I provide $32,000 a year in direct support for them. I keep $14,000. I have my own student loan payments to make, loans that were acrued during the marriage, and in fact she still sleeps in the bed those loans paid for. I have my own car payment so I can get to and from work to earn money. I have my attorney fees to defend myself. I have a payment plan with the IRS because I got stuck with a 7,800 dollar tax bill while she got a 6,500 dollar return because of Earned Income Credit...she does not even work full time...I gave her more in alimony than she earned on her own....


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## DoF

samyeagar said:


> That is what I am facing right now. There just simply is not enough money to do it, and that is not just whistlin' dixie. Add on even a third of the college costs and I will be paying more than I am earning.
> 
> To put it in perspective right now...between child support for three kids, spousal maintenance, and their van payment...I provide $32,000 a year in direct support for them. I keep $14,000. I have my own student loan payments to make, loans that were acrued during the marriage, and in fact she still sleeps in the bed those loans paid for. I have my own car payment so I can get to and from work to earn money. I have my attorney fees to defend myself. I have a payment plan with the IRS because I got stuck with a 7,800 dollar tax bill while she got a 6,500 dollar return because of Earned Income Credit...she does not even work full time...I gave her more in alimony than she earned on her own....


How in the world can you live on that?

Sorry but if court ever made a decision like that.......and I can't even get to see my kids.......I'm moving to another country.


That is just absurd, I'm sorry.


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## survivorwife

Dad&Hubby said:


> The bolded statement is not correct for all states. You need to research the laws in each state. I believe there are 16 states that classify children of divorced parents as "disadvantaged" individuals because they don't have the same "advantages" of children who have both parents. This is the case in the state I live in. My oldest is going into his senior year of high school next year (but will graduate at 17 so that's different). He'll turn 18 as a freshman in college. That said....
> 
> In the state I live in, they put into the divorce decree that I'm responsible for half of his college costs, regardless of my financial or the family's financial circumstances. They do this because as I stated above, he's a "disadvantaged individual". It's completely bogus and against the constitution but it's still the law. I haven't broached the topic with my ex, but I won't be able afford to pay half of his college costs.


Interesting. When I got my divorce my son was over 18 and living on his own - therefore "emancipated" and no financial requirements under the divorce decree. I was not aware of the "wording" for children still minors at the time of divorce as to college funding. Or whether, once the child reaches and moves out of the family home can be deemed "emancipated" and require no further financial support.

And DoF makes an excellent point about college. Prior to recent times, college was not required. Age of 18, a HS diploma or equivalent, and anything else was optional.


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## survivorwife

samyeagar said:


> That is what I am facing right now. There just simply is not enough money to do it, and that is not just whistlin' dixie. Add on even a third of the college costs and I will be paying more than I am earning.
> 
> To put it in perspective right now...between child support for three kids, spousal maintenance, and their van payment...I provide $32,000 a year in direct support for them. I keep $14,000. I have my own student loan payments to make, loans that were acrued during the marriage, and in fact she still sleeps in the bed those loans paid for. I have my own car payment so I can get to and from work to earn money. I have my attorney fees to defend myself. I have a payment plan with the IRS because I got stuck with a 7,800 dollar tax bill while she got a 6,500 dollar return because of Earned Income Credit...she does not even work full time...I gave her more in alimony than she earned on her own....


WOW! Is her alimony temporary - as in for a set amount of years? Was there a set time where she was supposed to get an education and/or start full-time employment so that she could be self-supporting?

I don't know how long you are required to carry such a financial burden, but I can see where you would certainly want to cut some of those financial strings.


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## DoF

survivorwife said:


> And DoF makes an excellent point about college. Prior to recent times, college was not required. Age of 18, a HS diploma or equivalent, and anything else was optional.


Yep, but now they figured we can suck TON of money out of "pushing kids into college" so they do so....and lined up the laws to support it as well.

Since everyone and their mother is going to college, the VALUE of the degree has completely decreased as well. 

Besides, most decent companies now days look at work experience vs "college" degree anyways.

It's becoming worthless YET it's more expensive than EVER.

I believe I read that college tuition has gone up more than ANY other industry past 4-5 years (15% on average).

Of course they will push for it when College institutions AND banks are making out like bandits and laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Omego

I don't have any legal advice, but is there any way you can try to get through to your son? Can you say "Look, I do not have extra money and I don't appreciate the fact that you are not showing me the respect I deserve as your father." My exH did say something along these lines to our daughter when she wouldn't acknowledge him for several weeks... he said he wasn't her ATM.

Your son is almost an adult. Maybe it's time for some hard lessons? Could he not apply for a student loan?

You can't get blood from a stone. If the money is not there, it's not there. And why should you bend over backwards when there is no reciprocity?


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## samyeagar

DoF said:


> How in the world can you live on that?
> 
> Sorry but if court ever made a decision like that.......and I can't even get to see my kids.......I'm moving to another country.
> 
> 
> That is just absurd, I'm sorry.


The fact is, I can't. Up until now I have been living with my parents and with my STBW. Things are about to change drastically. Part of her divorce agreement let her keep the house until her daughter graduated high school and then it needs to be sold and split with her ex husband. She graduated two weeks ago so beginning in July, we will have a rent payment.

My ex is aware of all of this. I have explained it to her, and she simply does not care, and keeps pressing forward with various financial requests. It does ring kind of hollow when she says "I'm sorry you are in that situation, but I have to look out for my kids, and it's time you step up and take responsibility."

I am going to keep fighting, but what really bothers me is the fact that everything she is doing is completely legal, and any woman out there could do just this to her ex husband. The reason more men are not in my position is simply because most women are not like my ex-wife and chose not to do this.


----------



## DoF

Omego said:


> I don't have any legal advice, but is there any way you can try to get through to your son? Can you say "Look, I do not have extra money and I don't appreciate the fact that you are not showing me the respect I deserve as your father." My exH did say something along these lines to our daughter when she wouldn't acknowledge him for several weeks... he said he wasn't her ATM.
> 
> Your son is almost an adult. Maybe it's time for some hard lessons? Could he not apply for a student loan?
> 
> You can't get blood from a stone. If the money is not there, it's not there. And why should you bend over backwards when there is no reciprocity?


The money is not there AS IS. Forget about college.

Court/justice system has completely stopped the OP from ability to sustain HIMSELF. 

How in the world can one be expected to pay such a large portion of their income towards child support/alimony is beyond me.

As for the son, what he REALLY needs is a good can of ASS whopping. 

And this is what MANY kids in this country (and men) need as well!!!


----------



## Dad&Hubby

The child isn't required to go to college. It's just that if they choose to go, the support paying parent is required to pay for some percentage of it, laid out in the divorce decree.

What States Force Non Custodial Parents to Pay a Child's College Tuition? | Mr Custody Coach


----------



## samyeagar

survivorwife said:


> WOW! Is her alimony temporary - as in for a set amount of years? Was there a set time where she was supposed to get an education and/or start full-time employment so that she could be self-supporting?
> 
> I don't know how long you are required to carry such a financial burden, but I can see where you would certainly want to cut some of those financial strings.


Alimony was ordered for five years, so 60 months. We are 21 months into that. She is a part time yoga instructor, and does before and after school child care. Both self employment endeavours are operating at almost zero profit...at least on paper.

My children are 12, 16, and 18.


----------



## Miss Independent

samyeagar said:


> It does ring kind of hollow when she says "I'm sorry you are in that situation, but I have to look out for my kids, and it's time you step up and take responsibility."
> 
> 
> 
> You also have look out for yourself. Time for some tough love. Your son needs to grow up and act his age.
> 
> 
> I am going to keep fighting, but what really bothers me is the fact that everything she is doing is completely legal, and any woman out there could do just this to her ex husband.



Nope it's not legal he's working under the table, so You can use that against them. I think she knows that she can use your son to things from you


----------



## survivorwife

samyeagar said:


> Alimony was ordered for five years, so 60 months. We are 21 months into that. She is a part time yoga instructor, and does before and after school child care. Both self employment endeavours are operating at almost zero profit...*at least on paper.*
> 
> My children are 12, 16, and 18.


Another one of those "under the table" deals, I suspect.

In my State, alimony and child support are awarded based on guidelines - that is a certain percentage (and not a set amount) of the payers income. I would recommend that you consult with your attorney about have numbers decreased if you can, and take all steps to do so. Obviously your Ex will try to fight it, but since the current financial obligation is not working for you, perhaps a modification is in order, especially in light of your oldest being 18. As you stated, it is financially impossible for you to fund his college education and any good lawyer can come up with ways to modify your support requirements accordingly.

So sorry for the situation that you find yourself in.


----------



## samyeagar

survivorwife said:


> Another one of those "under the table" deals, I suspect.
> 
> In my State, alimony and child support are awarded based on guidelines - that is a certain percentage (and not a set amount) of the payers income. I would recommend that you consult with your attorney about have numbers decreased if you can, and take all steps to do so. Obviously your Ex will try to fight it, but since the current financial obligation is not working for you, perhaps a modification is in order, especially in light of your oldest being 18. As you stated, it is financially impossible for you to fund his college education and any good lawyer can come up with ways to modify your support requirements accordingly.
> 
> So sorry for the situation that you find yourself in.


This is exactly the situation I find myself in. In my state, there are percentage guidelines for child support, but none for alimony. I am paying at the guidelines for child support, and when he turned 18 and graduated from high school, I filed to have the amount decreased as is normal procedure. She filed the request for college costs, and also for an emergency stay of the decrease pending the decision on college costs. The judge granted the stay and so I am to continue child support until a decision is reached on college costs.

She has made several other requests for various other costs and expenses and I have been ordered to pay, though some I have not. The thing is, she keeps requesting and I have to keep paying my attorney, and even this one, I may prevail and not be ordered to pay, but it will cost me $5,000 to defend myself. My ex has often pointed out the attorney costs I am racking up, and that it would be easier and cheaper for me to just give her what she is asking for...frankly, I would rather take the money, set it on fire, and piss on it than hand it over to those people.


----------



## Blonde

samyeagar said:


> Family court in my state does give judges latitude to extend child support beyond 18 and high school if the child is going to remain a dependent while going to college, and can indeed order a parent to pay for said college. The standard outcome is that each parent is responsible for 1/3 of the cost, and the child is responsible for 1/3 of the cost. My discovery was to demonstrate my son's ability to provide that 1/3 for himself. We requested things such as what schools he applied to and what schools he was accepted to. His applications for financial aid including his FAFSA form, federal loans, pell grants, etc, as well as his employment records and tax returns. That is where the issue comes in...if one has not been paying their taxes and it is found out, they are not eligible for any federal, and in my state, any state assistance until all taxes, penalties and fees are paid, so basically what they are expecting me to do is pick up the slack for their own illegal activities.


You'll be shooting yourself in the foot if your "exposure" causes him to be ineligible for financial aid. 

How much could a 17yo make for part time work? Not enough to compensate for the lost financial aid and lawyer bills pursuing this. 

Go run your income numbers in a financial aid calculator. You might change your mind about throwing away that opportunity for your son.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> You'll be shooting yourself in the foot if your "exposure" causes him to be ineligible for financial aid.
> 
> How much could a 17yo make for part time work? Not enough to compensate for the lost financial aid and lawyer bills pursuing this.
> 
> Go run your income numbers in a financial aid calculator. You might change your mind about throwing away that opportunity for your son.


My "exposure" consisted of a normal discovery request to put everyone's current financial situation on the table so the judge can make a decision. Yes, I can withdraw my request and concede the costs. However...at that point, if my son and ex wife decide not to get loans or things like that, guess who is on the hook? Me.

I have run things through the financial aid calculators, I even filled out a FASFA to get an idea of where things stood, and guess what? I gross about $65,000. After taxes, health insurance, and other mandatory deductions, I net $46,000 per year. $32,000 of which goes directly to them. My expected contribution is not based on the $14,000 I actually get to keep...nope...it takes into account the child support, van payment, medical expenses, expenses related to the kids, some of which are coming out of the $14,000 I get to try and live on.

And lets not forget, this is an 18 year old who has CHOSEN not to extend even basic courtesy to me that one would generally afford a complete stranger. Not even a thank you for the christmas and birthday presents.


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> This is exactly the situation I find myself in. In my state, there are percentage guidelines for child support, but none for alimony. I am paying at the guidelines for child support, and when he turned 18 and graduated from high school, I filed to have the amount decreased as is normal procedure. She filed the request for college costs, and also for an emergency stay of the decrease pending the decision on college costs. The judge granted the stay and so I am to continue child support until a decision is reached on college costs.
> 
> She has made several other requests for various other costs and expenses and I have been ordered to pay, though some I have not. The thing is, she keeps requesting and I have to keep paying my attorney, and even this one, I may prevail and not be ordered to pay, but it will cost me $5,000 to defend myself. My ex has often pointed out the attorney costs I am racking up, and that it would be easier and cheaper for me to just give her what she is asking for...frankly, I would rather take the money, set it on fire, and piss on it than hand it over to those people.


Justice system is fugged. Go underground or move to another country.

This country is treating you as a slave (clearly). 

Screw all that.


----------



## Blonde

I know you are angry but he's a teenager. Can you remember those days? They are pretty busy and self centered....

Heck my 27 yos hardly ever calls and doesn't send thank you notes or even reply to e-mails half the time. I attribute that to being male and being busy not to hating or rejecting me. 

If my 17yos had a job, I would be proud of him for having a work ethic. If it was under the table, maybe concerned about that for reasons others have pointed out... but more for my son's protection and safety.

When you ran the financial aid numbers, did he qualify for aid? Don't they use the custodial parent's income in the calculation? 

FinAid | Answering Your Questions | Divorce and Financial Aid


----------



## DoF

Blonde said:


> I know you are angry but he's a teenager. Can you remember those days? They are pretty busy and self centered....


I do remember those, but I also blame a lot of it on my parents for doing a ****ty job teaching me REAL LIFE lessons or even being around.

I also blame myself.....



Blonde said:


> Heck my 27 yos hardly ever calls and doesn't send thank you notes or even reply to e-mails half the time. I attribute that to being male and being busy not to hating or rejecting me.


You should attribute it to him being a ****ty son.

So how does your son show you love exactly? Seems like your love towards him is the ONLY love there is.


----------



## Blonde

DoF said:


> You should attribute it to him being a ****ty son.
> 
> So how does your son show you love exactly? Seems like your love towards him is the ONLY love there is.


Meh.

He's a busy husband and excellent father of two children<2yo.

We own a rental with him and he is very responsible and punctual sending the quarterly profit check.

He doesn't sent birthday cards and he didn't write thank you notes for the gifts he got when he graduated high school though. The daughters OTH are very diligent about such matters.

I'm very proud of my children. Wouldn't dream of referring to them as "****y"


----------



## 6301

Anon Pink said:


> Sam, would it be possible, or even advisable to discuss this with your son? To let him know that his lack of taxes will get discovered and he will have to pay back taxes,


 Not to mention the penalty and interest on his back taxes and they can nail his ass to the wall with those.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> I know you are angry but he's a teenager. Can you remember those days? They are pretty busy and self centered....
> 
> Heck my 27 yos hardly ever calls and doesn't send thank you notes or even reply to e-mails half the time. I attribute that to being male and being busy not to hating or rejecting me.
> 
> If my 17yos had a job, I would be proud of him for having a work ethic. If it was under the table, maybe concerned about that for reasons others have pointed out... but more for my son's protection and safety.
> 
> When you ran the financial aid numbers, did he qualify for aid? Don't they use the custodial parent's income in the calculation?
> 
> FinAid | Answering Your Questions | Divorce and Financial Aid


I get what you are saying about being a teenager, no thank you's and all that, but...I call, I text multiple times a week, and am completely ignored, and I mean that literally. NO return contact at all and haven't had for the better part of a year now. I did notice in the screen shots I got of his Facebook page that he does have someone listed as their father...who is not me. This isn't normal teenage stuff.

As far as the custodial contribution, yes they do take that into account, when they actually have income, and the income she is reporting, and that was on her tax return, that enabled her to qualify for Earned Income Credit was what I paid her in alimony. Her income separate from the alimony was only about 10% of what I paid.

That is the root of this and her claim...she does not make enough, nor does he make enough to contribute to his college, to pay the standard 1/3 mom, 1/3 kid, 1/3 dad. They want me to pay more. His working under the table jeopardizes his eligibility for financial aid, ways to offset the costs for ALL of us, and whether or not it comes out now through my discovery, or in the future, I will be the one left on the hook to pay for it. It is time that they take some of the financial responsibility too.


----------



## SamuraiJack

6301 said:


> Not to mention the penalty and interest on his back taxes and they can nail his ass to the wall with those.


Those WILL get discovered as soon as the company files their taxes. The IRS doesnt always catch these things so it may be years before they find it, but by then he will be accumulating quarterly late fees and interest on top of the original tax. What was 500 dollars five years ago suddenly becomes 5400 dollars and they will attach his wages. 
Best to get it out of the way now.


----------



## DoF

Blonde said:


> Meh.
> 
> He's a busy husband and excellent father of two children<2yo.
> 
> We own a rental with him and he is very responsible and punctual sending the quarterly profit check.
> 
> He doesn't sent birthday cards and he didn't write thank you notes for the gifts he got when he graduated high school though. The daughters OTH are very diligent about such matters.
> 
> I'm very proud of my children. Wouldn't dream of referring to them as "****y"


That's great

But you still didn't answer my question. What does your son do with ACTIONS to show you love?


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> I get what you are saying about being a teenager, no thank you's and all that, but...I call, I text multiple times a week, and am completely ignored, and I mean that literally. NO return contact at all and haven't had for the better part of a year now. I did notice in the screen shots I got of his Facebook page that he does have someone listed as their father...who is not me. This isn't normal teenage stuff.
> 
> As far as the custodial contribution, yes they do take that into account, when they actually have income, and the income she is reporting, and that was on her tax return, that enabled her to qualify for Earned Income Credit was what I paid her in alimony. Her income separate from the alimony was only about 10% of what I paid.
> 
> That is the root of this and her claim...she does not make enough, nor does he make enough to contribute to his college, to pay the standard 1/3 mom, 1/3 kid, 1/3 dad. They want me to pay more. His working under the table jeopardizes his eligibility for financial aid, ways to offset the costs for ALL of us, and whether or not it comes out now through my discovery, or in the future, I will be the one left on the hook to pay for it. *It is time that they take some of the financial responsibility too*.


Why would they, if the law/court enabled them to mooch off you all night and day?



All while leaving you basically homeless?

Your ex don't give a crap, and your son doesn't either.....you are NOTHING/NOBODY to them even though you provide SO much FOR them.

I'm not sure what kind of a person it takes to do such a thing. I wouldn't call that human though.

This is just completely ridicules. I'm sorry.


----------



## WolverineFan

samyeagar said:


> I guess my question is this...any ideas on how this will affect things like child support, alimony and such? Can this actually have any real leverage? I am waiting to hear back from my attorney, so I already have that ball rolling.


I don't understand your question. When you ask about leverage, are you talking about using your son's employment status against your ex-wife? If that is what you mean then I suppose it's for the purpose of lowering your child support? I was not aware that paying for college was something that could be court ordered. I guess it will become more clear when your attorney gets back to you. The most important thing is your relationship with your son - nurture that above everything else.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I don't know if you read my story but I was dealing with an NPD ex and alienation. Since you have two younger kids, I think it's worth your while if you can fight this at all.

Assuming she hasn't been officially diagnosed, I would petition the courts for a psychological evaluation for parental fitness. This would be based in the fact that you haven't had contact with your oldest son in a year and you are afraid the younger ones will follow in a similar path if something isn't done. Likely they are suffering the result of either not being the "golden child" (likely the oldest as he was the one alienated/she chose to enmesh) and or not properly worshiping her.

Participate in the evaluation. Express your concern, what you have seen, recount your marriage - lay it all out there. They will also meet with the kids. A good psychologist can see through the masks. 

I didn't even know what NPD WAS until after the evaluation - I just knew something was wrong - that he didn't think like "normal" people. My SIL suspected he was bi-polar because he was either the life of the party or enraged - very little in between.

To be asked to support her and a child she won't even encourage to have anything to do with you is an outrage.

He had filed for full custody (until then I had custody) and after he and his attorney go the report, they settled for half of the time he previously had - forget full custody! 

I know states are different but if you don't fight, once the oldest is out of the house, she'll focus on the younger ones.


----------



## Blonde

DoF said:


> That's great
> 
> But you still didn't answer my question. What does your son do with ACTIONS to show you love?


He and the wife and grandchildren came to visit for the family reunion at Christmas. It's 10-12 hour drive for them with pregnant wife and young child on board.

He shows me love by not rejecting the way I raised him. He emulates good character, good work ethic, good morals.

Sam,

Looks like your son is not required to file unless he made over $6100 

Publication 501 (2013), Exemptions, Standard Deduction, and Filing Information


----------



## DoF

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't know if you read my story but I was dealing with an NPD ex and alienation. Since you have two younger kids, I think it's worth your while if you can fight this at all.
> 
> Assuming she hasn't been officially diagnosed, I would petition the courts for a psychological evaluation for parental fitness. This would be based in the fact that you haven't had contact with your oldest son in a year and you are afraid the younger ones will follow in a similar path if something isn't done. Likely they are suffering the result of either not being the "golden child" (likely the oldest as he was the one alienated/she chose to enmesh) and or not properly worshiping her.
> 
> Participate in the evaluation. Express your concern, what you have seen, recount your marriage - lay it all out there. They will also meet with the kids. A good psychologist can see through the masks.
> 
> I didn't even know what NPD WAS until after the evaluation - I just knew something was wrong - that he didn't think like "normal" people. My SIL suspected he was bi-polar because he was either the life of the party or enraged - very little in between.
> 
> To be asked to support her and a child she won't even encourage to have anything to do with you is an outrage.
> 
> He had filed for full custody (until then I had custody) and after he and his attorney go the report, they settled for half of the time he previously had - forget full custody!
> 
> I know states are different but if you don't fight, once the oldest is out of the house, she'll focus on the younger ones.


Great advice!!!!


----------



## DoF

Blonde said:


> He and the wife and grandchildren came to visit for the family reunion at Christmas. It's 10-12 hour drive for them with pregnant wife and young child on board.
> 
> He shows me love by not rejecting the way I raised him. He emulates good character, good work ethic, good morals.


You call this love? If it floats your boat, that's all that matters.

Seems to me like he gets PLENTY of love from you, but gives very little back.

I have 4 kids and make sure to call my mom/father AT LEAST once a week just to talk and see how they are doing.

Of course I do more than that....but at the VERY least he can stop ignoring you.

PS. My brother does the same thing to my mom/dad as well. Hardly ever calls or ANYTHING.

Sorry but that's not love. I treat my parents the way I would like my kids to treat me once they grow up.

Also, as his kids grow Blondie, he will see more and more of your faults as a parent. He won't share that with you, he will simply make sure that his kids don't deal with it.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> He and the wife and grandchildren came to visit for the family reunion at Christmas. It's 10-12 hour drive for them with pregnant wife and young child on board.
> 
> He shows me love by not rejecting the way I raised him. He emulates good character, good work ethic, good morals.
> 
> *Sam,
> 
> Looks like your son is not required to file unless he made over $6100*
> 
> Publication 501 (2013), Exemptions, Standard Deduction, and Filing Information


And given the financial track record here, and the fact that it has been under the table, how can I verify that he indeed made less than $6,100? The employer can't verify it either since they are not keeping it on the books. Simply put, I do not trust them.


----------



## 6301

He might be a teen but he should have been taught manners and when he's given a gift or someone does a favor for him or any kind of kind gesture, the proper response is for the recipient to say "Thank you". 

My first wife was a lot like yours. I paid her cash for child support because she had no checking account due to her being on Govt assistance (her own choice) and the following year, I get a bill in the mail from the state telling me I was in arrears for non support for a year.

I called the state and told them I paid her. They said her child support was included in her monthly check and I was to send the money to them. 

I told them that no one from the state informed me about it and sent them everything from the support hearing and they told me to get a receipt off her. I called and her response was, "Did you give me cash" and I said you know I did and she said,"Well as far as I know you gave me nothing" and Jackass me had to pay it back.

Then in 03 my daughter got mad at me and she sounded just like her mother and she wanted nothing to do with me and sent me a horrible email detailing how mad she was.

After reading it, I waited for three days before I responded to her (They lived in another state) and told her that everyone has a right to be angry but she didn't have the right to be ugly or ignorant and told her that if she doesn't want a relationship with me, I can't do anything about it but I let her know that the door is still open and I'm willing to talk it out with her but not under her conditions but under mine. 

I'm her Dad and I never gave her any reason for her out burst but I let her know that I wont take any $h!t off my kids and be treated that way.

I know your hurting with your kid. I assure you that some day he's going to need you for something. My advice is not to be angry at him but do not kiss his ass either. he has to learn from his mistakes and if it takes 10 or 15 years then so be it.


----------



## Blonde

I have had 5 dependent children so far who had jobs as teenagers and none of them ever made >$6100/year

If he makes more than that as a teenager working part time and juggling school and extracurriculars.... he does not need to go to college at all! Just go full time.


----------



## Blonde

DoF said:


> Also, as his kids grow Blondie, he will see more and more of your faults as a parent. He won't share that with you, he will simply make sure that his kids don't deal with it.


I expect as they have and raise children of their own they will understand and value my concerns and sacrifices more.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> I have had 5 dependent children so far who had jobs as teenagers and none of them ever made >$6100/year
> 
> If he makes more than that as a teenager working part time and juggling school and extracurriculars.... he does not need to go to college at all! Just go full time.


And that's fine, and quite likely the case, however, I do not trust them and want everything verified.

Aside...my step daughter just graduated high school, graduated fourth in her class, was in extracurriculars, student council president, national honor society state vice president, steady boyfriend, and earned $12,000 at her job...I know because I did her taxes...


----------



## Blonde

At $10/hr, one would have to work 12 hours a week 52 weeks a year to make $6100

WOW your sd made out great for a HS student!!! What kind of part time work did she do to bring in $1000 a month?


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Here where I live child support is payable until the child reaches the age of majority which is 19 but can continue to 25 if they're still in school. Typically a parent will be ordered to pay 1/3 of university (assumption each parent pays a third and the child pays a third). 

Support can not be tied to access. Which means if your ex refused you access to the kids you would have to pursue that through the courts separately. You couldn't withold support.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> At $10/hr, one would have to work 12 hours a week 52 weeks a year to make $6100
> 
> WOW your sd made out great for a HS student!!! What kind of part time work did she do to bring in $1000 a month?


Waitressing 5 nights a week. I have known her for a couple of years now, and am extremely proud of her.


----------



## DoF

MaritimeGuy said:


> Here where I live child support is payable until the child reaches the age of majority which is 19 but can continue to 25 if they're still in school. Typically a parent will be ordered to pay 1/3 of university (assumption each parent pays a third and the child pays a third).
> 
> Support can not be tied to access. Which means if your ex refused you access to the kids you would have to pursue that through the courts separately. You couldn't withold support.


Which is wrong, it SHOULD be tied to access.


----------



## chillymorn

I would ask your son to meet you for dinner. I would extend the olive branch so to speak. I would tell him you loved him and would like to have a relationship with him. I would ask him to see through the lie his mother is feeding him that causes him to have such hate and disrespect for his father. If he acts stand offish I would explain that your not going to be apart of his life if he continues to act this way twords you. Not not familiar with your history of why you divorced .....was she cheating ...were you a absentee dad?

If she was at fault for your divorce then I would tell him the details of what happened. If he still dosen't come around then ....you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

do you not get any visitation? I would do this with your other children as well. I would also ask them to go with you to family counseling if they refuse then I would protect myself as best I could.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

The premise is that if you cut off support you hurt the child so effectively you're hurting the child to punish the ex. 

Theoretically, child support is about protecting the childs best interest. The fly in the ointment is that it has to pass through the other parent in order to do so. So effectively the person who has to pay gets the message, 'you can't be trusted to care for your child...you have to pay X amount and if you don't we'll garnishee you wages'. The parent receiving the support gets the message, 'We trust you completely to do the right thing...we won't insult you by asking you to account for the money you received for your child's benefit'.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Samyeagar. 

I'm in one of those crapy states that can force college. I watched my MIL take my FIL through the wringer for her deadbeat son and his college expenses for his 6 years of community college. 

What you have here is a negotiation. You need to get your end game in focus and keep that as the prize. DO NOT CONCEDE any leverage you have and this certainly constitutes it. 

I know your son doesn't talk to you but he's involved himself in this now regardless. Time to do an end around on the ole ex wifey. 

Call him up and say "we need to talk man to man". Then lay it out on the table for him. This is what happens when I play hardball. Be clear "if you don't meet with me, I'll go nuclear on the whole thing and lay waste." You can get him to the table by threatening his employer. 

When I negotiate big deals lack of information is the biggest hindrance. So I sit down and write out a plan. What do I want. What do they want. Who are the players. Wo else is involved. Who can say no. Who can say yes. What are all the financials. 

You want to get to win/win. But in this case loose/loose should certainly be on the table.


----------



## samyeagar

chillymorn said:


> I would ask your son to meet you for dinner. I would extend the olive branch so to speak. I would tell him you loved him and would like to have a relationship with him. I would ask him to see through the lie his mother is feeding him that causes him to have such hate and disrespect for his father. If he acts stand offish I would explain that your not going to be apart of his life if he continues to act this way twords you. Not not familiar with your history of why you divorced .....was she cheating ...were you a absentee dad?
> 
> If she was at fault for your divorce then I would tell him the details of what happened. If he still dosen't come around then ....you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
> 
> do you not get any visitation? I would do this with your other children as well. I would also ask them to go with you to family counseling if they refuse then I would protect myself as best I could.


She was verbally, emotionally and financially abusive. The straw that broke the camel's back though was when she began sleeping with my youngest sons teacher.

I was very much an involved father.

I am still very much open to meeting with him, and have suggested that several times, just to talk, no pressure. I have been ignored each time.

My 16 year old daughter has not spoken to me in over a year either. The last time we spoke was when she was asking me for about $3500 for a new trumpet. I told her that I couldn't do it, that there was no way I could afford it. She kept pushing and I laid out my financial situation to her, and her exact words were "So? I need that trumpet. Take out a loan or something." She petitioned the court through my ex wife that be released from the visitation requirement, and due to her age, it was granted. Before the divorce, my daughter and I were extremely close. I have to wonder now if I was just deluding myself.

My youngest, he and I still get on great. We talk, text, visit, all that. Though in a year, he will be 13 which is the age the courts begin to consider the child's wishes with regards to visitation.


----------



## Caribbean Man

chillymorn said:


> I would ask your son to meet you for dinner. I would extend the olive branch so to speak. I would tell him you loved him and would like to have a relationship with him. I would ask him to see through the lie his mother is feeding him that causes him to have such hate and disrespect for his father. If he acts stand offish I would explain that your not going to be apart of his life if he continues to act this way twords you.


I agree with this.

He is a grown man now, needs to know the facts , so that he should be able to analyze and put everything in perspective himself.


----------



## DoF

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> He is a grown man now, needs to know the facts , so that he should be able to analyze and put everything in perspective himself.


He is not a grown man until DEEP into 20s/early 30s. Even then, most are not even close.

It will take him YEARS to figure it all out. But it won't hurt to tell him your side of the story.....assuming you can actually get to talk to him.


----------



## samyeagar

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> He is a grown man now, needs to know the facts , so that he should be able to analyze and put everything in perspective himself.


I will certainly continue to try this avenue. He is a grown man and can make his own decisions.

With my daughter, I have reached out the same way, and likewise been ignored. I think what really bothered me the most about my last encounter with my daughter was her being completely devoid of any empathy. It sent a chill down my spine at how cold she was. It was as if I was looking at my ex wife.


----------



## imtamnew

I am sorry you are here. I have no idea on how the system works there. I am in a different continent altogether.


But I would not really care about a 18 year old who has no time for his dad.

For as long as they have you caught in an emotional web you are their slave. Don't be a slave.


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> I will certainly continue to try this avenue. He is a grown man and can make his own decisions.
> 
> With my daughter, I have reached out the same way, and likewise been ignored. I think what really bothered me the most about my last encounter with my daughter was her being completely devoid of any empathy. It sent a chill down my spine at how cold she was. It was as if I was looking at my ex wife.



I would SO wipe the slate clean and start my life elsewhere.....

They would get exactly $0 from me going forward and learn the hard way.

Personally I think you have NOTHING to lose, and EVERYTHING to gain.


----------



## Blonde

samyeagar said:


> I think what really bothered me the most about my last encounter with my daughter was her being completely devoid of any empathy. It sent a chill down my spine at how cold she was. It was as if I was looking at my ex wife.


She is not your ex wife. She is your daughter.

Abandoning the children to this won't help them to be better human beings.

YOU are the adult. They are the children. You be consistent and loving as much as it depends on you. Don't punish your children for your ex's behavior. 

Someday their cloudy vision will clear and they will see through the drama and realize you had their back and did your best for them.


----------



## samyeagar

DoF said:


> I would SO wipe the slate clean and start my life elsewhere.....
> 
> They would get exactly $0 from me going forward and learn the hard way.
> 
> Personally I think you have NOTHING to lose, and EVERYTHING to gain.


Believe me, I have thought along these lines. I've even considered quitting my job and letting the chips fall where they may. The thing is though, I do not now, nor have I ever wanted to get out of my responsibilities. I'm just at the point where I am fighting for my very survival, a roof over my head, and food on the table. 

Yes, my STBW has a job, but she does not make enough to support us both with everything that is going on, nor do I expect or want her to.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> She is not your ex wife. She is your daughter.
> 
> Abandoning the children to this won't help them to be better human beings.
> 
> YOU are the adult. They are the children. You be consistent and loving as much as it depends on you. Don't punish your children for your ex's behavior.
> 
> Someday their cloudy vision will clear and they will see through the drama and realize you had their back and did your best for them.


I am well aware she is my daughter and not my ex wife, nor have I in any way shape or form abandoned them. On the contrary, they have abandoned me. I will continue to reach out to them emotionally, but I am going to fight being forced to financially support them and subsidize their behavior towards me.

I understand that they are children, but even children need to take responsibility for their actions. Their behavior is nothing of what I taught them as a father. Yes, they are children, but that does not excuse them from not talking to me, not responding me, ignoring me when I reach out to them. That is their responsibility, and those are not behaviors one needs to be an adult with life experience to know are wrong.


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> Believe me, I have thought along these lines. I've even considered quitting my job and letting the chips fall where they may. The thing is though, I do not now, nor have I ever wanted to get out of my responsibilities. I'm just at the point where I am fighting for my very survival, a roof over my head, and food on the table.
> 
> Yes, my STBW has a job, but she does not make enough to support us both with everything that is going on, nor do I expect or want her to.


Find a job under the table. 

Sorry but your current % of income that's going towards Support is NOT and SHOULDN'T be YOUR responsibility.

Any court/judge expecting this is completely out of their minds and morally wrong.

I would work under the table or simply move to another country. Screw all that.


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> I am well aware she is my daughter and not my ex wife, nor have I in any way shape or form abandoned them. On the contrary, they have abandoned me. I will continue to reach out to them emotionally, but I am going to fight being forced to financially support them and subsidize their behavior towards me.
> 
> I understand that they are children, but even children need to take responsibility for their actions. Their behavior is nothing of what I taught them as a father. Yes, they are children, but that does not excuse them from not talking to me, not responding me, ignoring me when I reach out to them. That is their responsibility, and those are not behaviors one needs to be an adult with life experience to know are wrong.


I'm MORE than willing to bet that they will be BEGGING you for contact the second your check doesn't show up!!!


----------



## Hicks

I agree that it is likely that he won't owe any taxes unless he made over $6100... The tax burden will be small. I think the bigger financial risk would be losing financial aid for the first year. This could affect what you have to pay. There are other risks as well such as fraud. That's all on them I would think.

Why are you paying so much of your income to you XW anyway? Are you paying for a car as part of a divorce decree? I would not pay anything more than I was legally required to pay.

I would say as follows. 
-- You should not allow someone's bad judgement to become your problem, certainly you should not enable fraud. I'm not saying report them, but don't sacrifice your rights. You have a right to request a reduction.
-- These people don't have a relationship with you, all the more reason that they don't deserve your largesse in this matter.
-- Your son is doing something stupid under leadership from his mother, and you are actually doing him a favor by allowing him to see that bad choices have bad outcomes.

Keep in mind also, that your wife's bargaining chip so to speak is that you could wind up paying more since 1/3 of college could be more than your current child support. But at the end of the day, I would just ignore her request to stop the discovery.


----------



## Omego

samyeagar said:


> My 16 year old daughter has not spoken to me in over a year either. The last time we spoke was when she was asking me for about $3500 for a new trumpet. I told her that I couldn't do it, that there was no way I could afford it. She kept pushing and I laid out my financial situation to her, and her exact words were "So? I need that trumpet. Take out a loan or something."


 You're being very poorly treated. I find the above ^^^ behavior unacceptable.


----------



## DoF

Omego said:


> You're being very poorly treated. I find the above ^^^ behavior unacceptable.


Agreed

He is simply a wallet, nothing less, nothing more.


----------



## samyeagar

murphy5 said:


> yeah why punish your son? It is your byatch ex wife that is the ahole in this.


Of course it's her, and she's the one who has pushed the issue...why is it me who has to be the one punishing him? If she withdraws her request, the discovery goes away...why is she punishing him like this?


----------



## Dad&Hubby

samyeagar said:


> Of course it's her, and she's the one who has pushed the issue...why is it me who has to be the one punishing him? If she withdraws her request, the discovery goes away...why is she punishing him like this?


Ouch Sam. I thought my situation was tough to bear sometimes. Yours is much worse.

One thing that came out of my mouth early and often was "That's part of the child support I pay", when being asked for things like a new trumpet (my kids didn't ask for a new trumpet, but you get the idea). My kids were young when their mom and I divorced so it was her doing the asking, it never got to that point with the kids.


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> Of course it's her, and she's the one who has pushed the issue...why is it me who has to be the one punishing him? If she withdraws her request, the discovery goes away...why is she punishing him like this?


I suggest you take advice of a previous poster and demand a psychiatrist evaluation ASAP!!!

My #1 step would be to start a legal battle and convince the court that she is unable/unfit to be the primary care taker and is completely denying parenthood from your children.


----------



## 6301

You know, what they don't understand is some day everything is going to fall in to place and these kids are going to realize that that through their own stubbornness and greed that they lost the chance to know their other parent and by then, it's too late. 

Your parents are only her for a limited amount of time and then their gone. It's called life and I had a great relationship with my dad and he passed away in 96 and I would give anything to spend one more day with him.

It's going to be a tough lesson for them to learn but then, they brought it on themselves. Their both old enough to make choices and so far their batting zero.


----------



## samyeagar

DoF said:


> I suggest you take advice of a previous poster and demand a psychiatrist evaluation ASAP!!!


Already tried to get one once before, but it was denied. She had signed my daughter up for an $800 cheerleading camp and expected me to pay for half of it. When I refused, she sent over 200 texts and phone calls in less than 48 hours. I did not respond to any of them and finally I blocked her number. She filed a motion with the court on the grounds that I was obstructing open communication for parenting and requested I unblock her. We produced the phone logs and requested an evaluation and restraining order. Both were denied, and I was ordered to unblock her on the grounds that it was in the best interest of the kids that free communication be available between the parents.

I suppose I could try again...


----------



## DoF

samyeagar said:


> Already tried to get one once before, but it was denied. She had signed my daughter up for an $800 cheerleading camp and expected me to pay for half of it. When I refused, she sent over 200 texts and phone calls in less than 48 hours. I did not respond to any of them and finally I blocked her number. She filed a motion with the court on the grounds that I was obstructing open communication for parenting and requested I unblock her. We produced the phone logs and requested an evaluation and restraining order. Both were denied, and I was ordered to unblock her on the grounds that it was in the best interest of the kids that free communication be available between the parents.
> 
> I suppose I could try again...


Remember, you are fighting for YOUR CHILDREN. 

I would talk to a good lawyer and see what can be done about this.

This is just completely crazy and the court seems to be completely out of their mind.

How in the world can the court dictate your right to block unblock people as you please is beyond me as well.

crazy....


----------



## samyeagar

DoF said:


> Remember, you are fighting for YOUR CHILDREN.
> 
> I would talk to a good lawyer and see what can be done about this.
> 
> This is just completely crazy and the court seems to be completely out of their mind.


One of the issues I am running into is that I have a judge who is clearly not experienced in dealing with an NPD woman. He is still of the mindset that she actually has the best interests of the children in mind and rules accordingly. She also plays the part of victim, martyr, and concerned super mom to the hilt. She has, and does get the benefit of the doubt because she appears to have the best interests of the children in mind. She is not verbally or physically abusive to them, and the emotional abuse is easy to hide and difficult to prove especially when you are up against a woman who has spent a lifetime perfecting her craft. I am well versed in her tactics because I was the buffer when we were together.


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## Miss Independent

I don't understand. She has used things against you. Why can't you use what you have against her?


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## DoF

Fact that your children won't talk to you AT ALL, should be enough evidence that she is brainwashing them.

You see, at this point, if courts can't help you I would resort to myself to resolve the issue.

I would be SO over the edge on this entire situation. 

You don't even want to know the ideas running through my head right now.......but it would be dirty, REALLY dirty.\

I would literally dedicate my entire life to making hers miserable...and some.....assuming she would even have one by the time I was done.

But I will highly suggest to ignore me at this point!!!!

I'm a family man, and if you take my family and children....well, I have nothing. When I have nothing, WATCH OUT.

No person can ever surpass my level of crazy once it's unleashed.

:/


----------



## tom67

Sam you are screwed either way.
I guess it's time to draw a line in the sand and keep the hearing on the docket.
Sadly it sounds like the older son and daughter are gone.
And I hope I'm wrong but it sounds like d has become your ex. and will go through a lot of dysfunctional relationships.
And then on top of that getting screwed by the courts.

I love it when I see an article or video "Where have all the good men gone."
They know better than to get married or like me married again.
Really sad.


----------



## samyeagar

DoF said:


> Fact that your children won't talk to you AT ALL, should be enough evidence that she is brainwashing them.
> 
> You see, at this point, if courts can't help you I would resort to myself to resolve the issue.
> 
> I would be SO over the edge on this entire situation.
> 
> You don't even want to know the ideas running through my head right now.......but it would be dirty, REALLY dirty.\
> 
> I would literally dedicate my entire life to making hers miserable...and some.....assuming she would even have one by the time I was done.
> 
> But I will highly suggest to ignore me at this point!!!!
> 
> I'm a family man, and if you take my family and children....well, I have nothing. When I have nothing, WATCH OUT.
> 
> No person can ever surpass my level of crazy once it's unleashed.
> 
> :/


Yes, I can demand, harass, make her life miserable, but to what end? How would that help me get my kids back, and not alienate them further? I understand that it is very likely a lost cause at this point, and that I cannot force what is not there. And what if I am somehow able to convince the courts she is unfit? The damage that that fight would do just might outweigh any gains, and how to keep that about protecting the kids and not sticking it to their mother.

This is a very messed up situation that really is a no win.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

3Xnocharm said:


> Child support is to continue if the child is a full time student. I think it goes until 21.


This how it is, if you were married, in my state. Boy, I'm glad I didn't marry my cheating ex-gf.


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## SunnyT

Two things:

1. His working under the table screws his chance for a Pell Grant or other types of financial aid. Which in turn can screw you. Do your homework, research it.... some states will require the parents to split the cost of college, some stop support at 18. 

2. The kids may come around regarding you. Do not give up on them. Like you said, you didn't raise them this way..... as they mature and hopefully get out of the "what's in it for me" stage, they make rethink their opinions of dear ol dad. I think eventually they GET who the sane parent is. They know who does the right thing, even when it's not popular. There is hope yet!


----------



## frusdil

Alimony is BS! Wow! Sam I feel so bad for you, and other men in the US. That's so wrong. It's almost unheard of in Australia - only in VERY VERY extenuating circumstances...

I understand it for a year perhaps, the best thing a dad can do for his children is to give their mum a leg up to standing on her own two feet, but five years!!! No way!

You should fight this every inch of the way. The fact that you have to live on so little money while your ex lives it up in style in your old home is just BS.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

samyeagar said:


> I am well aware she is my daughter and not my ex wife, nor have I in any way shape or form abandoned them. On the contrary, they have abandoned me. I will continue to reach out to them emotionally, but I am going to fight being forced to financially support them and subsidize their behavior towards me.
> *
> I understand that they are children, but even children need to take responsibility for their actions. Their behavior is nothing of what I taught them as a father. Yes, they are children, but that does not excuse them from not talking to me, not responding me, ignoring me when I reach out to them. That is their responsibility, and those are not behaviors one needs to be an adult with life experience to know are wrong.*


You obviously have zero understanding of alienation. This is NOT their choice. They have been manipulated and brainwashed. They have been trained to equate any positive feelings toward Dad with some negative reinforcement from Mom. 

I can send some links to some very useful information but you HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH. I don't understand how you can give up and blame them. You really need to learn more about the dynamics or you are sentencing them to a future of repeating these patterns their mother is establishing.

Stop focusing on the stupid money the kid earns. That job is the least of your concern.

And whoever said that was $1000 a month? That would be $12,000. At $6100 we're talking a little over $500 a month.


----------



## tom67

EnjoliWoman said:


> You obviously have zero understanding of alienation. This is NOT their choice. They have been manipulated and brainwashed. They have been trained to equate any positive feelings toward Dad with some negative reinforcement from Mom.
> 
> I can send some links to some very useful information but you HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH. I don't understand how you can give up and blame them. You really need to learn more about the dynamics or you are sentencing them to a future of repeating these patterns their mother is establishing.
> 
> Stop focusing on the stupid money the kid earns. That job is the least of your concern.
> 
> And whoever said that was $1000 a month? That would be $12,000. At $6100 we're talking a little over $500 a month.


Enjoli I agree but he can file another motion and it will just get denied.
He can't make the kids talk to him now he has to protect himself and get less screwed than he already is.
Feminism at it's finest.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

murphy5 said:


> yeah why punish your son? It is your byatch ex wife that is the ahole in this.


So, he is following all of the rules, but doesn't want to pay more than the 1/3(parent1)+1/3(parent2)+1/3(son) split and he's punishing his son? How does that work when the issue was raised by his wife? The same woman who said just give me the money instead of paying all of the attorney fees and losing battles. I know who I think is being punished and it isn't the college bound son or the ex.



EnjoliWoman said:


> You obviously have zero understanding of alienation.


He hasn't talked to his kids in over year and saw his son listing someone else as his father. Obviously, I'm going to say he has a VERY good understanding of alienation.


----------



## Omego

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I know who I think is being punished and it isn't the college bound son or the ex.
> 
> He hasn't talked to his kids in over year and saw his son listing someone else as his father. Obviously, I'm going to say he has a VERY good understanding of alienation.


:iagree: We're not talking about babies here. I must have missed the part about the son listing someone else as his father. 

Seems like the only thing to be done now is to stop handing out extra money (ie. the trumpet).

When the children get older, they'll hopefully realize how badly they behaved. It's actually not a good upbringing if they grow up thinking they can bully/pout/ignore their way into getting what they want. This strategy may work with a parent, but certainly not with others....

I don't know, this is going to sound really harsh perhaps, but I wouldn't make any more extra effort with them OP. I'd follow through with the procedure you mentioned at the start. If they can't be reasonable, then you're going to have to protect yourself financially. 

You can't be blamed later on in life by your children for demanding the respect you deserve as a parent.


----------



## DoF

EnjoliWoman said:


> You obviously have zero understanding of alienation. This is NOT their choice. They have been manipulated and brainwashed. They have been trained to equate any positive feelings toward Dad with some negative reinforcement from Mom.
> 
> I can send some links to some very useful information but you HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH. I don't understand how you can give up and blame them. You really need to learn more about the dynamics or you are sentencing them to a future of repeating these patterns their mother is establishing.
> 
> Stop focusing on the stupid money the kid earns. That job is the least of your concern.
> 
> And whoever said that was $1000 a month? That would be $12,000. At $6100 we're talking a little over $500 a month.


DO it OP

And when and if it gets denied again, file it again and again until you get some results.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

My suspicion is that at a certain level the kids know their mother is unstable. They are at some level trying to take care of her. They know Dad will stand by them no matter how poorly they treat him. So they treat him like crap because they feel they need to to make mom feel better. It sucks big time. it's not easy always taking the high road. 

I do believe they will reach a stage when the fog will be lifted...maybe a few years after they're on their own for awhile away from Mom's craziness. They will realize Dad stood by them even when they didn't deserve it.


----------



## C3156

I will echo what another has said, it should be of no surprise why some men prefer not to get married. The legal entanglements are sometimes not worth it.

To the OP, this has got to be one of the worst cases of injustice I have read about. How the courts can order over 65% of your gross income to be paid to your ex, esentially not leaving you enough to live is crazy. The fact that you keep losing against her frivolous motions makes me think that you need a different lawyer. 

I would not give up the fight for your kids, they will always be a part of you. I wish I could offer some genuine guidance, but all I will say is that I think you should stay the course.


----------



## renascent

This situation is horribly unjust which is par for the course if you are a male. That being said, I do not think it's right to punish the kid for his mother's horrible behavior. I do not believe he is doing anything wrong. If anything he deserves a pat on the back for finding a way to circumvent the illegal criminal thieves known as the IRS.


----------



## tom67

C3156 said:


> I will echo what another has said, it should be of no surprise why some men prefer not to get married. The legal entanglements are sometimes not worth it.
> 
> To the OP, this has got to be one of the worst cases of injustice I have read about. How the courts can order over 65% of your gross income to be paid to your ex, esentially not leaving you enough to live is crazy. The fact that you keep losing against her frivolous motions makes me think that you need a different lawyer.
> 
> I would not give up the fight for your kids, they will always be a part of you. I wish I could offer some genuine guidance, but all I will say is that I think you should stay the course.


All it takes is one bad judge like his.
It really p!sses me off.


----------



## samyeagar

EW, I have done extensive research into parental alienation, and one of the first things I learned is that it is two very different scenarios when the one doing the alienating is the mother vs the father. Much like male and females with NPD are very different. I have consulted with several different attorneys regarding this, and most won't touch it because of the difficulty, the costs, time, and low liklihood of success. Even if it is successful, and custody is switched, to what gain? Most cases I have read about with similar aged kids with the mother doing the alienating, result in irreperable damage being done all the way around anyway. It is very different when the kids are young as opposed to teens. The biggest hurdle I am facing right now is the fact that my two oldest are completely ignoring me, and the courts will not compell contact. I have and continue to reach out to them, maintain a presence in their life as best as I can considering it is completely one sided. I am maintaining active contact on a daily basis with my youngest, and am doing everything I can to work against further alienation.

You of all people should know that the most basic, first requirement to breaking through the alienation is actual dialogue. There can be no headway until I get some sort of feedback from them. Until I can get some sort of feel for where the problems actually lie, I have to be very careful in everything I say to them so as not to compoud the problems, reinforce what their views of me are, etc. I am continually letting them know that the lines and doors are open and safe.

Now with regards to the money, I don't really care about the money he has made, or how much or anything like that. My concern is that I may be ordered to spend money that I do not have, and am essentially being asked to roll over and clean up their mess, a mess I have absolutely nothing to do with, knowing full well there will be no appreciation or change in the dynamic. There will be no give and take here. There never is, and never has been. It will be me giving, and them taking, and then moving on to the next thing to take.


----------



## loveadvice

samyeagar said:


> Long story short...
> 
> My ex wife has custody of the kids. My oldest son is 18 and just graduated from high school. I petitioned the court to lower my child support. My ex filed a motion to stay the reduction and it was granted pending a decision on whether or not I am to pay for his college expenses. Part of the process...My attorney filed a discovery order requesting various things including my son's tax returns, bank records, and pay stubs. My ex wife just called me wanting me to withdraw the discovery request because my son has been working under the table, can not produce any of the documents, nor has he filed a tax return. I have no idea how much he has actually earned. He has been "employed" for a year beginning when he was 17. He has been living with her the whole time.
> 
> I guess my question is this...any ideas on how this will affect things like child support, alimony and such? Can this actually have any real leverage? I am waiting to hear back from my attorney, so I already have that ball rolling.


Usually, the original custody agreement should state when child support ends, which is typically until the child marries, dies, is emancipated, reaches 19, or reaches 18 and is not a full-time high school student residing with a parent, whichever occurs first. 

Why did you have to petition the court to lower child support? It should be automatic per the court ordered custody agreement stipulation if you have the typical provision as stated above.


----------



## samyeagar

loveadvice said:


> Usually, the original custody agreement should state when child support ends, which is typically until the child marries, dies, is emancipated, reaches 19, or reaches 18 and is not a full-time high school student residing with a parent, whichever occurs first.
> 
> Why did you have to petition the court to lower child support?


And it was specified, but in my state, it is specific dollar amount specified based on a percentage, so a separate order reducing the dollar amount is needed. In virtually every case, this is simply a formality that usually involves writing the motion and sending it to the judge for signature. A court appearance is not even necessary...unless one does what my ex wife did, which is perfectly legal and anyone receiving child support COULD do if they felt like it...


----------



## EnjoliWoman

tom67 said:


> Enjoli I agree but he can file another motion and it will just get denied.
> He can't make the kids talk to him now he has to protect himself and get less screwed than he already is.
> Feminism at it's finest.


My ex extended his 1 week of vacation to a month, citing it an emergency. She went from a normal loving 10y/o girl to hating me and having nothing to do with me. But I educated myself and learned about parental alienation. I learned it was not her fault. My friends all said that they would tell their kid screw you, go stay with Dad if you feel that way. But I valued my relationship with my daughter and I wasn't going to turn away. So I fought for custody and fought to learn how to combat alienation, learning techniques to teach her to think for herself and not to follow Dad's lead in everything. I reminded her that there was a time she did love me, trust me and respect me. 

For a year she was snarky, rebellious, resentful, ****y and just stood there when I hugged her. But I had patience and a plan and I was NOT giving up without a fight. I could not walk away from my daughter. I MADE her see that I was worthy of respect and love. After a year she'd give a 1-armed side-hug and reply to ILY with "ok, good night". After 2 years I got some hugs but only when I hugged her and we progressed to a begrudging "you too" in response to ILY. 3 years practically to the date I got an "I love you, too". And it took another 6 months but I finally got the spontaneous hugs, first one to say ILY for no reason, and then snuggles on the sofa, crawling into bed with me for comfort, voluntarily doing things around the house... and I'm not bragging but it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't MADE it happen.

It's incredibly sad to rush to call your own Mom, hiding in the closet so your kid doesn't hear, crying happy tears to say "MOM, SHE SAID I LOVE YOU!!!!" That is something most parents take for granted, as they should.

So the OP can do what he wants about it but people with personality disorders are notorious for alienation because the hurt they inflict on the alienated parent or the hatred they feel toward the other parent is more important to them than the damage they are doing to the kids. And the ONLY way to intervene, is to put the child with the target parent and limit the contact with the PD parent until the relationship has been reestablished and then the contact with the child and PD parent can be gradually increased as long as there are no signs of regression. And every psychologist who has written anything about the topic recommends the same thing.

Google Dr. Craig Childress. He's the best IMO and goes into great depths to analyze the syndrome.

ETA - It took $40K in legal fees, $3K for my half of the psychologist's fee (he had to pay half), and it would have cost me for the psychologist to testify as an expert witness should we have gone to trial. But when his attorney saw the report from the psych eval I petitioned for, they folded. He had to pay half of my legal fees and ended up with less visitation than before his motion. It's not cheap, but this was my DAUGHTER. What price is there on our relationship? I'd have sold my soul if I had to. Maybe the price is too high for some. I'm still paying back my parents for the loan and will for another 3 years. 

So IMO, who the hell cares about 6K in a part time job? This is way bigger than that.


----------



## loveadvice

samyeagar said:


> And it was specified, but in my state, it is specific dollar amount specified based on a percentage, so a separate order reducing the dollar amount is needed. In virtually every case, this is simply a formality that usually involves writing the motion and sending it to the judge for signature. A court appearance is not even necessary...unless one does what my ex wife did, which is perfectly legal and anyone receiving child support COULD do if they felt like it...


That's weird. In my state, when the agreement states when the support ends, that's when it should end and no argument nor filing of additional papers in court is necessary because the court order already states what should happen. If she wants to contest the court order then she should contest it on her own. I don't understand why you had to initiate the filing. The percentage is now 0% because you now have zero obligation under the court order to pay child support, so what is there to calculate? 0 times X dollar amount is always 0. If you were asking for a reduction of child support payments from let's say $1,000 to $700 then I would understand the need for the filing of a change of circumstances stipulation, but in this case, it is questionable to me why you would even need to start the court process by filing a motion. 

When my bf's son reached 18, my bf just stopped making the payment. End of story. If my bf's ex wife had wanted to extend payment, she would need to file a motion letting the judge know why, and not the other way around.


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## samyeagar

loveadvice said:


> That's weird. In my state, when the agreement states when the support ends, that's when it should end and no argument nor filing of additional papers in court is necessary because the court order already states what should happen. If she wants to contest the court order then she should contest it on her own. I don't understand why you had to initiate the filing. The percentage is now 0% because you now have zero obligation under the court order to pay child support, so what is there to calculate? 0 times X dollar amount is always 0. If you were asking for a reduction of child support payments from let's say $1,000 to $700 then I would understand the need for the filing of a change of circumstances stipulation, but in this case, it is questionable to me why you would even need to start the court process by filing a motion.
> 
> When my bf's son reached 18, my bf just stopped making the payment. End of story. If my bf's ex wife had wanted to extend payment, she would need to file a motion letting the judge know why, and not the other way around.


In my case it is not going to zero. I have three kids and my oldest just graduated from high school. Three kids by guidelines is 32%, two kids is 28% and one is 20%. I had a specified dollar amount to pay, then had to file a motion to have it reduced to the new amount. Everything was done and proceeded as normal for my state until she decided to contest the reduction. They filed a request for college costs, and an emergency stay on the reduction in child support until a decision was made for college costs. Continued child support while my son is in college is part of their request. If the judge awards them college costs, I will have to continue paying child support as well. If he does not, the child support will be reduced at that time. Regardless of the outcome, the simple filing on their part and the judge granting the stay guarantees her another couple of months of child support, which was likely part of their strategy in the first place.


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## loveadvice

samyeagar said:


> In my case it is not going to zero. I have three kids and my oldest just graduated from high school. Three kids by guidelines is 32%, two kids is 28% and one is 20%. I had a specified dollar amount to pay, then had to file a motion to have it reduced to the new amount. Everything was done and proceeded as normal for my state until she decided to contest the reduction. They filed a request for college costs, and an emergency stay on the reduction in child support until a decision was made for college costs. Continued child support while my son is in college is part of their request. If the judge awards them college costs, I will have to continue paying child support as well. If he does not, the child support will be reduced at that time. Regardless of the outcome, the simple filing on their part and the judge granting the stay guarantees her another couple of months of child support, which was likely part of their strategy in the first place.


My bf has two children. His agreement is drafted as a fixed amount per child. Therefore, when the eldest turned 18, my bf just stopped paying child support in the fixed amount that is attributable to his eldest child and he is continuing to pay child support for his younger child in the fixed amount that is attributable to the younger child.

It seems to me that your attorney should have drafted your custody agreement in terms of a fixed amount per child. Therefore, you would not have to file court motions when your other two children turn 18 because there would be no question as to what the payment would be.

Going forward, maybe you should have your lawyer file an amended stipulation in court to translate the percentage into a fixed amount.


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## samyeagar

loveadvice said:


> My bf has two children. His agreement is drafted as a fixed amount per child. Therefore, when the eldest turned 18, my bf just stopped paying child support in the fixed amount that is attributable to his eldest child and he is continuing to pay child support for his younger child in the fixed amount that is attributable to the younger child.
> 
> It seems to me that your attorney should have drafted your custody agreement in terms of a fixed amount per child. Therefore, you would not have to file court motions when your other two children turn 18 because there would be no question as to what the payment would be.
> 
> Going forward, maybe you should have your lawyer file an amended stipulation in court to translate the percentage into a fixed amount.


I have a feeling we live in two different states with different procedures. I know that the way things were done are correct for my state. The reason that a new motion is required is to take into account changes in income and circumstance. For instance, if I got a raise or raises between filings, that would be taken into account.

ETA: I am also required to report to the court any extraordinary changes in income that would amount to 10% or more of an increase so it can be recalculated.


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## I Don't Know

loveadvice said:


> My bf has two children. His agreement is drafted as a fixed amount per child. Therefore, when the eldest turned 18, my bf just stopped paying child support in the fixed amount that is attributable to his eldest child and he is continuing to pay child support for his younger child in the fixed amount that is attributable to the younger child.
> 
> It seems to me that your attorney should have drafted your custody agreement in terms of a fixed amount per child. Therefore, you would not have to file court motions when your other two children turn 18 because there would be no question as to what the payment would be.
> 
> Going forward, maybe you should have your lawyer file an amended stipulation in court to translate the percentage into a fixed amount.


Sounds like it really wouldn't matter in Sam's state. If there was any right thinking about it, his ex wouldn't have been able to stop his motion in the first place, he wouldn't be on the hook for 1/3 of completely optional college costs, and his ex wouldn't even be getting alimony. Also, if Sam can't pay the college costs he could(?) get thrown in jail for contempt. Anyone want to bet how much mom will ACTUALLY pay toward college?


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## tom67

I Don't Know said:


> Sounds like it really wouldn't matter in Sam's state. If there was any right thinking about it, his ex wouldn't have been able to stop his motion in the first place, he wouldn't be on the hook for 1/3 of completely optional college costs, and his ex wouldn't even be getting alimony. Also, if Sam can't pay the college costs he could(?) get thrown in jail for contempt. Anyone want to bet how much mom will ACTUALLY pay toward college?


Sigh...
There are some cases where men get thrown in jail because they got laid off and couldn't pay.
It is out of control in some places.


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## loveadvice

samyeagar said:


> I have a feeling we live in two different states with different procedures. I know that the way things were done are correct for my state. The reason that a new motion is required is to take into account changes in income and circumstance. For instance, if I got a raise or raises between filings, that would be taken into account.
> 
> ETA: I am also required to report to the court any extraordinary changes in income that would amount to 10% or more of an increase so it can be recalculated.


I want to know which state you live in because I want to avoid living there! 

Whenever one starts a motion in court, it almost always encounters opposition by the opposing spouse. 

Mandating a motion filing for stopping payment on child support *as already stipulated in the agreement *is going to almost automatically trigger a reply filing by the other spouse to look into the income of the paying spouse. 

Had the agreement been drafted to state that there are fixed amounts attributable to each kid respectively, this should not happen. 

There is something wrong with the policy in your state if a motion is required. It just doesn't make sense from a practical perspective. What if the paying dad doesn't have the money to procure an attorney to file a motion? Does he have to keep paying forever? I know so many people who can't even fill out a tax return and certainly not a court motion. 

Something is not right here. 

I'm a lawyer. Something feels wrong from a practical standpoint.


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## vellocet

samyeagar said:


> Long story short...
> 
> My ex wife has custody of the kids. My oldest son is 18 and just graduated from high school. I petitioned the court to lower my child support. My ex filed a motion to stay the reduction and it was granted pending a decision on whether or not I am to pay for his college expenses.


Yup, nice, real nice isn't it? You pay through the nose all these years, now she is going to stick you with the entire cost of college more than likely.

But hey, she didn't have a hand in being financially responsible for your kids all these years, why expect her to help send her son to college.
I'll probably face the same thing when the time comes.

Child support for your son should be over. You may end up having to bear the cost of college. But hey, as long as that money doesn't go to your X, right?

Does your X work? If so, she should be bearing part of the cost. I believe a lot of states will put a third of the cost on each party, the mother, the father, and a third to the child.

Anyway, your son doesn't appreciate the sacrifices you are making so he can live a better life. He isn't in contact with you, and as far as your X, to hell with her.

I wouldn't stop the discovery and let your X know that.


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## tom67

loveadvice said:


> I want to know which state you live in because I want to avoid living there!
> 
> Whenever one starts a motion in court, it almost always encounters opposition by the opposing spouse.
> 
> Mandating a motion filing for stopping payment on child support *as already stipulated in the agreement *is going to almost automatically trigger a reply filing by the other spouse to look into the income of the paying spouse.
> 
> Had the agreement been drafted to state that there are fixed amounts attributable to each kid respectively, this should not happen.
> 
> There is something wrong with the policy in your state if a motion is required. It just doesn't make sense from a practical perspective. What if the paying dad doesn't have the money to procure an attorney to file a motion? Does he have to keep paying forever? I know so many people who can't even fill out a tax return and certainly not a court motion.
> 
> Something is not right here.
> 
> I'm a lawyer. Something feels wrong from a practical standpoint.


The only thing I can think of is in his state judges have more latitude to approve/deny than in other states.
I know in other divisions judges have those standing orders where they get to establish their own rules in their court.
IMO he needs to show with his paycheck and all his bills to the court and prove he can't afford the college WTF.
It won't do any good I'm afraid.


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## vellocet

3Xnocharm said:


> Child support is to continue if the child is a full time student. I think it goes until 21.


No, that's not the way it works. Unless there is another state that differs, it ends a 18 or graduation day, whichever comes last.

That's not to say when it comes to college expenses it hasn't been negotiated that the father still pay some limited support, but that would be directly to the child, not the mother any longer.


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## tom67

vellocet said:


> Yup, nice, real nice isn't it? You pay through the nose all these years, now she is going to stick you with the entire cost of college more than likely.
> 
> But hey, she didn't have a hand in being financially responsible for your kids all these years, why expect her to help send her son to college.
> I'll probably face the same thing when the time comes.
> 
> Child support for your son should be over. You may end up having to bear the cost of college. But hey, as long as that money doesn't go to your X, right?
> 
> Does your X work? If so, she should be bearing part of the cost. I believe a lot of states will put a third of the cost on each party, the mother, the father, and a third to the child.
> 
> Anyway, your son doesn't appreciate the sacrifices you are making so he can live a better life. He isn't in contact with you, and as far as your X, to hell with her.
> 
> I wouldn't stop the discovery and let your X know that.


Ugh
Sam if you can could you just tell the state you are in?
I want to write to your congress critters and senators and bombard them.
If you can't I understand but if enough people contact them it may have an effect eh what the heck.


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## frusdil

Sam, I have no advice, just support. I think your situation stinks and is so incredibly unfair.

That a man should be expected to support his ex wife financially, for so long after the divorce is nothing short of abhorrent.

Your ex - and any woman who takes anything but child support from their ex, should hang their head in shame.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Lyris

It's standard here in my country for child support to extend through tertiary education while a child is studying full time. 

Rightly or wrongly, if you cut off child support your son will resent you and you have little hope of a future relationship with him. If that matters to you, step up and pay. If it doesn't, continue with the application for a reduction.


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## samyeagar

Lyris said:


> It's standard here in my country for child support to extend through tertiary education while a child is studying full time.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, if you cut off child support your son will resent you and you have little hope of a future relationship with him. If that matters to you, step up and pay. If it doesn't, continue with the application for a reduction.


Have you missed that this isn't about just the child support? I filed for the standard reduction, and they filed asking for college costs. Even if I don't continue with the reduction, their petition is still there, and my discovery requests were related to that so that EVERYBODIES financials are out in the open so that my ex-wife and son will have to bear some of his college costs, not just dear old ATM here.

And step up and pay??? 75% of my income already goes directly to that household and my ex wife still does not have even part time employment. I do not have enough money left over to keep a roof over my head and I'm supposed to give more???

ETA: And did you miss the part where my son has not had any contact with me what so ever for the past year despite my continued and continuing attempts?


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## BURNT KEP

vellocet said:


> No, that's not the way it works. Unless there is another state that differs, it ends a 18 or graduation day, whichever comes last.
> 
> That's not to say when it comes to college expenses it hasn't been negotiated that the father still pay some limited support, but that would be directly to the child, not the mother any longer.


My brother was on the hook till his kid was 21. He lives in NY and I am pretty sure it's 21 now.


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## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> Have you missed that this isn't about just the child support? I filed for the standard reduction, and they filed asking for college costs. Even if I don't continue with the reduction, their petition is still there, and my discovery requests were related to that so that EVERYBODIES financials are out in the open so that my ex-wife and son will have to bear some of his college costs, not just dear old ATM here.
> 
> And step up and pay??? 75% of my income already goes directly to that household and my ex wife still does not have even part time employment. I do not have enough money left over to keep a roof over my head and I'm supposed to give more???
> 
> ETA: And did you miss the part where my son has not had any contact with me what so ever for the past year despite my continued and continuing attempts?


When someone posts they should read the entire thread. As for your situation looks like you lose either way. If he loses financial aid due to not reporting his income you will pay more. How does you son do in school anyway? Any idea where he may be going? At least you can get some idea how much it may be.


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## Lyris

Yes I read the whole thread. It changes nothing. 

If you want to have a future relationship with your son, continue to pay child support and help support him through college *whether or not he will see you*. You're the parent. You owe him, not the other way around.

I'm not saying it's fair, or easy for you. It sounds like your situation sucks. But that's not your kid's fault. So why should he suffer because his parents couldn't keep things together. Would you have helped him with college if you were still married? If yes, then there's the answer.

As for forcing the disclosure of earnings, what's the point? All it's going to do is add to reasons for him to resent you. In all likelihood he didn't earn over the tax free threshold anyway.


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## Holland

Sam what sort of whacked out system do you guys have that means you pay 75% of earning to your ex? 

I am sorry to hear you life sucks in this area but have to agree with Lyris.


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## samyeagar

Lyris said:


> Yes I read the whole thread. It changes nothing.
> 
> If you want to have a future relationship with your son, continue to pay child support and help support him through college *whether or not he will see you*. You're the parent. You owe him, not the other way around.
> 
> I'm not saying it's fair, or easy for you. It sounds like your situation sucks. But that's not your kid's fault. So why should he suffer because his parents couldn't keep things together. Would you have helped him with college if you were still married? If yes, then there's the answer.
> 
> As for forcing the disclosure of earnings, what's the point? All it's going to do is add to reasons for him to resent you. In all likelihood he didn't earn over the tax free threshold anyway.


Why exactly do I owe him? My ex wife and I made it quite clear to all the kids that we would not be able to pay for their college. They would need to do well in high school so they could earn grants and scholarships, so the answer to that question...no, if we were still married, we would not be paying fr his college. He finished high school with a C- GPA.

To put it into financial perspective here...after I pay her car payment, my car payment, the back taxes from when we were married, my student loans that were accrued while we were married, my lawyer, her lawyer, and gas to get back and forth to work, I have about $300 a month to contribute for food, utilities, rent, and other basic living expenses. Where out of that can I come up with the cost for college??? It's not just a matter of me not wanting to pay, THE MONEY IS JUST NOT THERE, and my son's mother DOES NOT HAVE A JOB.

ETA: And along the lines of being there for, supporting my kids, etc...I do go to things like their concerts, sporting events, school programs even though I am not welcome. I call, text, write them asking how they are doing, letting them know whats going on in my life, asking about theirs. I support them emotionally as a father should, as best as they will let me...I hold up my end of that part of the relationship...


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## Holland

Why do you have to pay for her car and Lawyer?


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## sinnister

Lyris said:


> It's standard here in my country for child support to extend through tertiary education while a child is studying full time.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, if you cut off child support your son will resent you and you have little hope of a future relationship with him. If that matters to you, step up and pay. If it doesn't, continue with the application for a reduction.


He's not a child. An 18 year old is closer to a young man than a child. He made his choice to avoid sam...now he has to start learning about this little thing I call consequences.


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## BURNT KEP

Lyris said:


> Yes I read the whole thread. It changes nothing.
> 
> If you want to have a future relationship with your son, continue to pay child support and help support him through college *whether or not he will see you*. You're the parent. You owe him, not the other way around.
> 
> I'm not saying it's fair, or easy for you. It sounds like your situation sucks. But that's not your kid's fault. So why should he suffer because his parents couldn't keep things together. Would you have helped him with college if you were still married? If yes, then there's the answer.
> 
> As for forcing the disclosure of earnings, what's the point? All it's going to do is add to reasons for him to resent you. In all likelihood he didn't earn over the tax free threshold anyway.


I wasn't trying to be an azz sorry if I came off that way. But as he stated multiple times the kid has no interest in a relationship with his dad. So how long does he just give him what he wants with nothing in return? As for child support when do we draw the line on the age? To me 18 was good enough when my father paid my mom support I don't see why it has or had to change. Sam is paying 75% of his income to his xw for support how can any judge make anyone pay to the point they have to be on welfare?


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## Openminded

Actions have consequences. At 17 he should have learned that already. If not, it's a good time to.


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## Holland

BURNT KEP said:


> I wasn't trying to be an azz sorry if I came off that way. But as he stated multiple times the kid has no interest in a relationship with his dad. So how long does he just give him what he wants with nothing in return? *As for child support when do we draw the line on the age? *To me 18 was good enough when my father paid my mom support I don't see why it has or had to change. Sam is paying 75% of his income to his xw for support how can any judge make anyone pay to the point they have to be on welfare?


It sounds like a cultural issue. Lyris and I are both in Aussie. the norm here is for the CS to start going straight to the child at 18 if they are still studying. Personally I am happy to keep supporting my kids while they study. I have never heard of anyone here fighting to stop CS just because a child reaches 18, it just doesn't seem right. In a one house hold family parents don't just stop supporting their kids because they are 18. 

The bigger issue IMHO is the, what sounds like a crazy system you have in America, 75% is insane. Makes more sense to pay less but for longer.


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## tom67

Holland said:


> It sounds like a cultural issue. Lyris and I are both in Aussie. the norm here is for the CS to start going straight to the child at 18 if they are still studying. Personally I am happy to keep supporting my kids while they study. I have never heard of anyone here fighting to stop CS just because a child reaches 18, it just doesn't seem right. In a one house hold family parents don't just stop supporting their kids because they are 18.
> 
> The bigger issue IMHO is the, what sounds like a crazy system you have in America, 75% is insane. Makes more sense to pay less but for longer.


Yes 75% and now the witch wants more!
He doesn't have the f^ckin money!


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## Maricha75

Just from the brief search I did, it appears it would be an either/or situation anyway... IOW, if he goes to college, you pay whatever his share of the CS is to the school or whatever for the tuition, dorm, etc. As for the age of 18... sorry, I disagree with the idea that he should have to pay child support once out of high school/age 18. When I turned 18, I was given the choice: go to college or get a job. I did both. Because I was in college, mom and dad didn't charge me to live with them. Had I not gone to college, I would have. And they didn't help me with my education. Not by paying for anything out of pocket. I got scholarships, grants, and loans. Me. All by myself. The only thing required of them was knowing their income so I knew how much I got for the grant. That's it. There's no reason Sam's son can't do the same thing. If he needs something, then the boy needs to make an effort to have a relationship with his dad! My parents wouldn't deny me, even now, if they had funds available. But the thing about that is that it wasn't ever assumed. I had to ask. Just as it should be with Sam's boy.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## tom67

Maricha75 said:


> Just from the brief search I did, it appears it would be an either/or situation anyway... IOW, if he goes to college, you pay whatever his share of the CS is to the school or whatever for the tuition, dorm, etc. As for the age of 18... sorry, I disagree with the idea that he should have to pay child support once out of high school/age 18. When I turned 18, I was given the choice: go to college or get a job. I did both. Because I was in college, mom and dad didn't charge me to live with them. Had I not gone to college, I would have. And they didn't help me with my education. Not by paying for anything out of pocket. I got scholarships, grants, and loans. Me. All by myself. The only thing required of them was knowing their income so I knew how much I got for the grant. That's it. There's no reason Sam's son can't do the same thing. If he needs something, then the boy needs to make an effort to have a relationship with his dad! My parents wouldn't deny me, even now, if they had funds available. But the thing about that is that it wasn't ever assumed. I had to ask. Just as it should be with Sam's boy.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


:iagree::iagree:
Stop!
You are making too much sense.


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## golfergirl

We were in a similar situation here (I was the child support receiving mom) and I was supposed to contribute 1/3 to daughter's education. Lucky she earned full scholarship because I just didn't have the money. I don't understand - if you are married parents you aren't forced to contribute, so why if divorced? I wish I could afford to give a good help but splitting everything I owned in half when I divorced just didn't allow me the luxury.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

Exactly. Not every married parent pays for their child's college education. Some can't and some feel the child should take on the responsibility. So why should a divorced parent be required to. Support up to 18 I totally agree with. Anything beyond that shouldn't be required by the court. Negotiated maybe, if the support-paying parent wants to, but not required.


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## Lyris

Well I disagree. If as a parent you would have helped pay for college while you were married, a divorce shouldn't change that. Why should children be further penalised for their parents' choices?


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## Openminded

Many married parents -- not just the divorced ones -- feel their financial support ends at 18. My parents paid for my college education and my husband and I paid for our son's. Not everyone does that. I don't think we know what would have happened had he remained married but he's apparently not in a financial position to pay for his son's education under the circumstances.


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## Maricha75

The point Sam is trying to make is that he doesn't HAVE the money. 75% of his pay is going to his ex. He lives on less than $15,000/year, and his ex expects him to dip into that, in addition to the 75% he already pays. He can't do it. He can't send more because he doesn't HAVE more.

And, even when he and his ex were together, I believe Sam said they told the kids they couldn't afford to pay for college and they'd have to try for scholarships and grants and loans, if necessary... just like I had to do, with parents who were married. It's no different. And there's nothing wrong with thinking that way.

Lyris, I understand where you're coming from. I just think that an 18 year old should look more toward relying on himself/herself rather than mommy and daddy to supply his/her every need. There's nothing wrong with them taking responsibility for themselves, and that includes not expecting (in this case) daddy to pay for everything while the boy chooses not to have a relationship with him. Sorry, but if it were my kid, I'd be doing the same thing Sam is.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Lyris

Ok. I wouldn't be. 

If he's been paying child support up until now, and has now applied for a reduction, then the child support that was going towards this son's upkeep could be put towards college costs. No change in actual amount. 

If I was estranged from my child I would be doing everything possible to maintain that relationship, including having it be purely a financial relationship for a few years. 

I feel a lot more sorry for the children who have been alienated from a parent than I do for either of the parents who have contributed, even if one is more to blame than the other. 

Again, I don't see why children should be further disadvantaged by their parents' choice to divorce. Divorced parents owe their kids more, not less.


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## Trojan John

My parents divorced early in my childhood. I did well in school, went to university and paid all of my own expenses that were not covered by scholarships. OP should not be on the hook for an underachieving son and an ex- who refuses to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

Well it depends if the OP wants a chance at a future relationship with his son. If he does, he needs to think seriously about the message refusing to help with college expenses sends. 

And please note, I said "help with" not "pay entirely for".


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## samyeagar

It has been a purely financial relationship with my son for the past year, and that's been by his choice. It will indirectly continue to be so through his mother, again until he chooses differently. I have, and continue to reach out to him to have an actual father-son relationship.

Most of the time I was married to my ex, I was nothing more than an ATM. Now that we are divorced, I continue to support all of them. They have taken very little of that responsibility upon themselves. What makes it really not right is the fact that while I am supporting them, virtually 100%, I am having to rely on others to support me.

To be clear about that 75% number...only about 60% of my income goes directly to them as cash, the rest of that number is made up from the fact the I pay for their vehicle...directly to the bank, I pay for for their health, dental, and vision insurances.

Part of me has to wonder, though I really thought I knew better, but how much of the same types of responses would be coming at me if I were a woman? Let me ask again...why is it that I am being told to suck it up, give more...why not her? Where is the...she should step up?

I know some of you will find this cold...so be it, but if, a few years down the line, my son talks to me again...He will not be able to say that I wasn't there for him, that I didn't take an interest in him, that I didn't reach out to him. He knows that I made the four hour round trip drives to watch him perform in an hour and a half long concert...no, those parts of being a dad, all the things I CAN give him, my time, my love, my support, I have given in spades, and will continue to do so...if he wants to use money as his reason for being angry with me, for not having a relationship with me...I am never going to be in a relationship that I have to buy just to have it...never again.

ETA: TO give a bit of perspective on my ex wifes mindset...when this first blew up, I partly in jest, partly seriously because I knew there was no way she'd go for it, but I offered to take 1/3 of the college costs if she agreed to lower her alimony by the same amount...she flat refused and couldn't agree to that because then she wouldn't have enough to live on. They expect dear old dad to just keep giving while expecting nothing in return.


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## samyeagar

Lyris said:


> Well it depends if the OP wants a chance at a future relationship with his son. If he does, he needs to think seriously about the message refusing to help with college expenses sends.
> 
> And please note, I said "help with" not "pay entirely for".


See, and this gets to the crux of the matter...how I'm damned no matter which direction I go because of what they have done...

If I pull the discovery request, I can't make the case that they have the resources to cover their part of the costs, that they can contribute too, so I will likely be ordered to cover the costs.

If I continue the discovery, he will not be eligible for most grants and loans, again putting the burden back on me.

I imagine he hasn't made that much from this job, probably not enough to make much of a dent in anything, but because of his decision to work under the table, and my ex wifes decision to allow him to is going to end up costing me far more in the long run. My ex wife is a grown woman and she allowed this mess to happen, so why is it that I am being expected to fix it?

Lyris, et. al...Why is it that none of you have said anything about how maybe my ex wife should take on some of this responsibility? That maybe she should get a job? Why is it that you seem to be feeling that I should shoulder most, if not all of the responsibility here?


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## Blonde

samyeagar said:


> Se
> 
> If I continue the discovery, he will not be eligible for most grants and loans, again putting the burden back on me.


^^shooting yourself in the foot

I've had 5 children (so far) attend college. The older ones got maximum financial aid because our income was in the 50K range at the time. Our EFC was 0. EFC is "expected family contribution"

Now that I got a job making 25K annually and H got some raises, our income is 90K and our EFC is 27,000. 

That's right, we are expected to contribute 1/3 of our income, more than I even make in a year, to support our daughter's college education! (Thankfully she has a big scholarship and is going to be a dorm RA which gets us partially off the hook)

IF we divorced, I would have custody and the financial aid would be based on MY household income, which- including child support- would put my under the 50K range again which is the range for MAXIMUM financial aid. 

Truly, your son's financial aid award will be *much higher *because of your divorce (so long as neither of you re-marries with that income factored in).

Maximum PELL grant is $5K IIRC. Plus whatever state aid. A community college would pretty much be a free ride...

...but not if your stirring of the pot makes him ineligible (I'm not sure it would because he is below threshold for taxes, but it will certainly get his employer in trouble and might make your son feel like you are an enemy not a friend...)


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## alphaomega

Sam,

The issue with advice is that the giver interprets the question using thier own mental memes and comes up with an interpretation based on personal emotions.

All these ladies responding are probably neither NPD, and gainfully employed. If they were in the situation where their ex husband were your wife, lazy, greedy, and entitled, they would give much different advice.

Stay the course. Get the discovery request. I have a strong spider sense that it's your ex wife that's going to be the one where if you dig up HER past income as part of this process, she will be the one sweating bullets, not your son. Since she's NPD, it could just be a convenient lie she told you to play on your emotions, by involving your son.

Talk to your son. Get in touch with him at all costs. Explain your need to talk to him about continued support monetarily for him, and that if he refuses to respond you will have to continue this current action of discovery.

In the end, can you withdrawl the completed discovery before court submission if you need? There's always that option perhaps?


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## frusdil

samyeagar said:


> ETA: TO give a bit of perspective on my ex wifes mindset...when this first blew up, I partly in jest, partly seriously because I knew there was no way she'd go for it, but I offered to take 1/3 of the college costs if she agreed to lower her alimony by the same amount...she flat refused and couldn't agree to that because then she wouldn't have enough to live on. They expect dear old dad to just keep giving while expecting nothing in return.


Sam you know you have my absolute sympathy. Alimony is absolute BS, and we don't, and shouldn't have it in Australia, except in very, very extreme circumstances. If she's not working, the woman is expected to get a job.

I said in my last post that any woman who takes any financial support other than child support (with the exception being the rare extreme circumstances referred to above) from her ex should hang her head i shame.

What is the reason your wife won't get a job? Have the courts asked her this?


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## alphaomega

Blonde,

I think we can all see your point and empathize.

Your family unit, however, makes 90k a year. Sam makes 14 k a year. How do you explain he continue his support for another 4 or 5 years living on that income?


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## Blonde

alphaomega said:


> Blonde,
> 
> I think we can all see your point and empathize.
> 
> Your family unit, however, makes 90k a year. Sam makes 14 k a year. How do you explain he continue his support for another 4 or 5 years living on that income?


Our gross is 90K. Sam's gross is 65K

If H and I divorced I calculated the CS and maintenance and H would get less than half of the 90K if I had custody.

If I was Sam, I would get rid of car payments. We have never owned a car with payments. We buy 3k cars outright.

If I was Sam, I would not live 2 hours away from my children. Makes seeing them and being involved with their lives way too difficult and complicated... If I was his bio-kid, I would feel... *rejected and replaced* by the new one he is so very proud of (his GF' daughter)


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## jld

frusdil said:


> I said in my last post that any woman who takes any financial support other than child support from her ex should hang her head i shame.


What about a woman who has been a SAHM for 20 years and finds out her husband is having an affair? She should not get alimony?

If a woman has devoted her life to her family for two decades, she forfeited that time that could have gone to developing a career. Doesn't there need to be some recompense for that?


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## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> Our gross is 90K. Sam's gross is 65K
> 
> If H and I divorced I calculated the CS and maintenance and H would get less than half of the 90K if I had custody.
> 
> If I was Sam, I would get rid of car payments. We have never owned a car with payments. We buy 3k cars outright.
> 
> If I was Sam, I would not live 2 hours away from my children. Makes seeing them and being involved with their lives way too difficult and complicated... If I was his bio-kid, I would feel... *rejected and replaced* by the new one he is so very proud of (his GF' daughter)


And if you were Sam, you wouldn't have enough money to actually afford a place to live close to my kids...and my kids also live two hour from where I work, so if I moved closer to where I work, I'd still be two hours from my kids...and if you were Sam, you wouldn't be able to afford a $3k car outright, and you'd have to drive 1000 miles a week on that same car and hope you didn't have to pay for repairs. If you were Sam, you'd be ordered by the court to pay your ex wifes car payment, and wouldn't be able to get rid of it no matter how badly you wanted to...

You're damned right it makes it difficult and complicated, but I still do it anyway...


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> What about a woman who has been a SAHM for 20 years and finds out her husband is having an affair? She should not get alimony?
> 
> If a woman has devoted her life to her family for two decades, she forfeited that time that could have gone to developing a career. Doesn't there need to be some recompense for that?


Funny...my ex wife was a SAHM completely by her choice, and was having an affair...go figure...


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## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> Our gross is 90K. Sam's gross is 65K
> 
> If H and I divorced I calculated the CS and maintenance and H would get less than half of the 90K if I had custody.
> 
> If I was Sam, I would get rid of car payments. We have never owned a car with payments. We buy 3k cars outright.
> 
> If I was Sam, I would not live 2 hours away from my children. Makes seeing them and being involved with their lives way too difficult and complicated... If I was his bio-kid, I would feel... *rejected and replaced* by the new one he is so very proud of (his GF' daughter)


You would feel rejected and replaced by the several calls and texts a week? By the hand written letters? By seeing me make the hours long drives to see their activities, school programs? By me being an active presence? Huh...then I suppose most kids should feel pretty damned rejected even when their Father and mother aren't divorced...


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## Maricha75

Alphaomega, I am one of the ladies who actually agrees with Sam. I do agree with Blonde about one thing, though: the car payments. If they need a car that requires payments, it can come from the support payments he is sending. If that is unacceptable, then there should have been a cheaper car purchased, one that didn't require payments... or required shorter/smaller payments.

As far as moving 2 hours away, I'd say that all depends. If he could not live a short distance away, with just the money has left over after giving the support, then it makes sense to live 2 hours away, where he could (barely) afford. I can totally understand why he would move that far away. And, yet, he still made the effort to go to the important events. He's been there, even living 2 hours away. And, I'm sorry, but other divorced couples make it work for the kids, even being that far away. My aunt and her ex-husband did... and that was 6 hours round trip! Sam has been trying. His son has been rejecting SAM, EVEN BEFORE the stb-stepdaughter came into the picture. 

So, no, I don't feel sorry for Sam's son at all. He has made his own choices. He knows Sam has been making the effort. He also knows that his mom and the kids have been using Sam as an ATM. So, now that he's an adult, he should have to make an effort, not just expect dad to fork it over. Sam pays health, dental, and vision insurance. That will likely continue, anyway, at least while the boy is in college. And, if he chooses to go to college near Sam, offer free room and board while attending school. He could also get a job through Work Study program, like I did. Now, that money was actually mine, to use as I pleased. But it usually went into the gas tank. The boy has options. And Sam shouldn't have to be an ATM just to remain in his son's life.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Maricha75

samyeagar said:


> And if you were Sam, you wouldn't have enough money to actually afford a place to live close to my kids...and my kids also live two hour from where I work, so if I moved closer to where I work, I'd still be two hours from my kids...and if you were Sam, you wouldn't be able to afford a $3k car outright, and you'd have to drive 1000 miles a week on that same car and hope you didn't have to pay for repairs. If you were Sam, you'd be ordered by the court to pay your ex wifes car payment, and wouldn't be able to get rid of it no matter how badly you wanted to...
> 
> You're damned right it makes it difficult and complicated, but I still do it anyway...


See, I was thinking it was about the kids and cars for them. I don't think you should have to pay for her car, in addition to alimony, but that wasn't my call. That should be on her, not you. But that's JMO. For the kids, it should have been cheap car(s), period.


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## Blonde

samyeagar said:


> You would feel rejected and replaced by the several calls and texts a week?


I would feel rejected and replaced by having you legally attack and undermine my job. 

Mean while you are proud of GF daughter that she is such a great student (I am not), made so much money, and you helped her with her tax return, etc.... 

Just saying how I would feel. If I was your son, I would feel rejected and replaced. My dad is NOT proud of me for working and my dad is ashamed of my C- in school... My dad hates my mother and is punishing me for it.


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## Blonde

Plus, as I keep attempting to point out, if you cause him to lose thousands of dollars of financial aid, ultimately, you are not only hurting him but hurting *yourself* (if he pursues college)

Why don't you offer to help your son file tax returns and fill out the FAFSA? I think you and he will be pleasantly surprised at how much aid he can get. Divorce can be a financial aid boon How does divorce affect college financial aid? - CBS News


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## whatslovegottodowithit?

It appears that there really is no great advice that can help Sam. A lot of "If it were me" and "if I was you" and "in my state/country ___ , this happens", but Sam is telling what IS happening to him and is stuck! He's damned if he does or damned if he doesn't!! This thread may be one of those "must read" (sorry Sam) for those considering D with children.

I wish, as a father with visitation who pays support, I could add something that may help, but can't...I feel for you and pray all turns-out well in the end!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

Apparently, Blonde, you missed where he said he's been working out the financial aid stuff and will still have to pay a large chunk, which he cannot afford. And this whole inquiry thing was done so he doesn't have to pay his EX-WIFE the CS as well as college tuition. Checking into his son's income was part of that. Of course, if the boy hadn't been getting paid under the table, this would be a non-issue. They would know his income and could figure accordingly. 

Also, regarding the stepdaughter, why shouldn't he be proud of her? You know what? I went to college. My parents didn't pay for it. I did. One sister went to tech school. The other barely graduated high school. I got scholarships and grants. The sister who went to tech school got grants and a scholarship because she did co-op through the high school, working at the company that owned the school. And she got loans, just like I did. And she worked, like I did. But through it all, my parents were proud of EACH of our accomplishments. I see it the same with Sam, actually. If he wasn't proud of his son, he wouldn't make the effort to attend the special events for him! Very low blow, suggesting that he's not proud of any accomplishments his son has. And very low to suggest he shouldn't be proud of the young lady his stb wife's daughter has become! 

I'm inclined to agree with Sam about one other thing... I truly do suspect the answers would be different if Sam was a woman complaining about the ex-husband, etc.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> I would feel rejected and replaced by having you legally attack and undermine my job.
> 
> Mean while you are proud of GF daughter that she is such a great student (I am not), made so much money, and you helped her with her tax return, etc....
> 
> Just saying how I would feel. If I was your son, I would feel rejected and replaced. My dad is NOT proud of me for working and my dad is ashamed of my C- in school... My dad hates my mother and is punishing me for it.


Just for the record...my son has met my step daughter exactly one time. Beyond that, I have made it a point to not say a word about her to him, or any of my kids for this very reason, so you can drop that line of thinking...I'm already one step ahead of you.

She and my youngest get along very well.


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## samyeagar

And today's Father's Day right? Well, my STBW and I have five kids between us, and the only one who has said anything to me is well, my step daughter.

Today is my day with the kids per our custody agreement, but you know what? My ex wife and kids are on a camping trip with her boyfriend, you know, my kids teacher, the guy she cheated on me with. Don't get me wrong, the camping trip is going to be one hell of a good time. She scheduled it a couple of months ago for this weekend, and then claimed she had no idea it it was Father's Day, and she couldn't reschedule it. So here's old Sammy, which to some of you I am barely a step above an absentee father, selfish, not trying with my kids, well here I am with a choice...enforce the visitation schedule and tell my kid he can't go on the big fun camping trip that has been hyped up to him, likely building resentment and all that, or give up my time with my only child speaking to me. Really nice choice there huh...maybe if I just give them more money, my ex wife wouldn't be like that huh?


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## jld

I am sorry you are in such a tough position, Sam. I am glad your stepdaughter remembered you.


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## Blonde

Maricha75 said:


> Apparently, Blonde, you missed where he said he's been working out the financial aid stuff and will still have to pay a large chunk, which he cannot afford.


He must be doing the numbers wrong then. With 5 children, on ex-w income (she has custody) the FA should be at the max amt which should cover community college.

Whatever. I've only done this with Five children. If Sam wants to scr#w himself and his son out of thousands of dollars for the sake of revenge, it's his life. I'm a taxpayer. I guess he'll be saving ME money 

((((((shrug)))))

unsubscribing


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## Blonde

samyeagar said:


> And today's Father's Day right? Well, my STBW and I have five kids between us, and the only one who has said anything to me is well, my step daughter.


You helped her with her taxes and she knows you are proud of her....

and you love her mother...


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## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> He must be doing the numbers wrong then. With 5 children, on ex-w income (she has custody) the FA should be at the max amt which should cover community college.
> 
> Whatever. I've only done this with Five children. If Sam wants to scr#w himself and his son out of thousands of dollars for the sake of revenge, it's his life. I'm a taxpayer. I guess he'll be saving ME money
> 
> ((((((shrug)))))
> 
> unsubscribing


So now, not wanting to roll over, and expecting others to carry their own weight is considered revenge...


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## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> You helped her with her taxes and she knows you are proud of her....
> 
> and you love her mother...


And I pay for almost every damn thing my kids have, and tell them, show them that I am interested in them and a relationship with them...and I'm not even being offered a pay to pay relationship with them...just a pay and no relationship...


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## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> You helped her with her taxes and she knows you are proud of her....
> 
> and you love her mother...


So what is your opinion on the REST of the post you took this from? The part where my ex wife purposely screwed me out of my time with my youngest on Father's Day no less? So what was it that I did wrong there, because I'm sure there is something...


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## Maricha75

Hey, Sam, I was looking at the FAFSA online page, specifically about divorced parents and how it should be done... In this case, Blonde is right about how it SHOULD be done. That's not saying that's how it is BEING done, clearly. But according to the people in chargeof how to fill this stuff out, her position is correct... It SHOULD be done according to his mother's income, etc. That said, it doesn't necessarily mean your son will be eligible for the maximum amount. But he SHOULD be eligible for more. I'd still go through with the CS reduction, personally. And if he needs anything to help for college, he can ask.

FAFSA and Divorce < FAFSA FAQ | FAFSA Online


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## long_done

OP - you have my sympathies.

However, realistically, you chose to have 3 kids with a horrible woman, and you're paying the price now.

Is it fair? Probably not, but life is not fair.

I gave extremely serious consideration about how many kids I could afford, and made sure I would be okay paying the financial burden before having the kids.

If I was irresponsible and had too many kids than what I could afford, married or divorced, that would be on me, my responsibility and failure.

Sorry you're in this situation, and it sucks, but you made the choice to have 3 kids...


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## Maricha75

long_done said:


> Sorry you're in this situation, and it sucks, but you made the choice to have 3 kids...


:wtf:

That's like saying "hey, sorry you had 3 kids and then lost your lucrative job, but you're the one who made the choice to have 3 kids..." Seriously? I don't know about Sam, but I know I never gave any thought to the possibility that my husband could lose his job when we I got pregnant. And, I know my sisters never anticipated divorcing their husbands because they cheated on them. Who thinks "OMG! I shouldn't have any children with him/her because he/she might cheat on me and then we will get divorced and I will have to pay all this alimony and child support!" C'mon now...


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## long_done

Maricha75 said:


> :wtf:
> 
> That's like saying "hey, sorry you had 3 kids and then lost your lucrative job, but you're the one who made the choice to have 3 kids..." Seriously? I don't know about Sam, but I know I never gave any thought to the possibility that my husband could lose his job when we I got pregnant. And, I know my sisters never anticipated divorcing their husbands because they cheated on them. Who thinks "OMG! I shouldn't have any children with him/her because he/she might cheat on me and then we will get divorced and I will have to pay all this alimony and child support!" C'mon now...


The OP never stated he lost his job, or did I miss that?

He chose to have 3 kids with a woman who clearly is ill-equipped to be a mother. That does not happen over night.

Does he have my sympathy? Sure he does, but he alone is responsible for his actions, even if it's with an evil woman who wants to take him to the dry cleaners. There should have been signs after the 1st or 2nd kid that all is not well, and stop before things get worse.

You don't just have 3 kids with someone and then find out they're pure evil.

Not only that, the OP stated the wife never made much money anyway, so it would have been hard to support 3 kids even if he was not divorced.


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## tom67

long_done said:


> The OP never stated he lost his job, or did I miss that?
> 
> He chose to have 3 kids with a woman who clearly is ill-equipped to be a mother. That does not happen over night.
> 
> Does he have my sympathy? Sure he does, but he alone is responsible for his actions, even if it's with an evil woman who wants to take him to the dry cleaners. There should have been signs after the 1st or 2nd kid that all is not well, and stop before things get worse.
> 
> You don't just have 3 kids with someone and then find out they're pure evil.
> 
> Not only that, the OP stated the wife never made much money anyway, so it would have been hard to support 3 kids even if he was not divorced.


You can't be serious. 
They wonder why fewer men are getting married.
Sam's thread is a perfect example but go ahead and blame the male because well he should just shut up and take it right?
Good grief!


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## Maricha75

No, he didn't lose his job. And yes, people DO have kids with people who are "so evil" or at the very least, not what they pretend to be. Like one sister and her ex. There was no indication he would become mentally ill then cheat on her while in the psych ward at the hospital. But he did. That's the point I was making. Saying "Well, it's your own fault for not thinking ahead" regarding children and divorce is a copout. Most people don't. Most people anticipate growing old together. Divorce is not on their minds when starting out. And, some people DO hide their true selves, quite well.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## long_done

Maricha75 said:


> No, he didn't lose his job. And yes, people DO have kids with people who are "so evil" or at the very least, not what they pretend to be. Like one sister and her ex. There was no indication he would become mentally ill then cheat on her while in the psych ward at the hospital. But he did. That's the point I was making. Saying "Well, it's your own fault for not thinking ahead" regarding children and divorce is a copout. Most people don't. Most people anticipate growing old together. Divorce is not on their minds when starting out. And, some people DO hide their true selves, quite well.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Understood, but for the sake of argument let's say all was well, OP was still with his wife... he would still be struggling to live on his income with 3 kids. 

That's my point. The divorce merely exacerbated the issues, but it was not the heart of the financial issue.


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## golfergirl

Another woman here who totally gets Sam's point of view. He can't sh!t money so if it had to be a no then it's a no. Pretty sad if the courts think they can tap out what he has left to love in. That's below poverty level where I'm from. If Sam wasn't a stand up guy he would just quit his job and let the chips fall where they may. If my child wanted a purely financial relational relationship with me, I would step back. It isn't teaching a good lesson that bullying gets you what you want. Either way - at 18 he's either old enough to know better or too immature and needs guidance to be a decent human being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## long_done

tom67 said:


> You can't be serious. More feminazis coming out then ever.
> They wonder why fewer men are getting married.
> Sam's thread is a perfect example but go ahead and blame the male because well he should just shut up and take it right?
> Good grief!


LOL I'm a man dude, get it right.

In fact my STBXW makes virtually nothing. I make 10 times as much as my STBXW. 

I'm about to pay a pretty penny for my divorce, which I initiated. I accept the full outcome, because I chose to marry a woman who didn't make much money, and we had kids together.

Am I being screwed over? Yes I absolutely am. She is getting hundreds of thousands of dollars for staying at home, sleeping, crafting, and occasionally pick up the kids from school.

Is it fair? Nope. Why should I have to give much of what I earned and saved just to divorce? It's life, and I accept it.


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## long_done

golfergirl said:


> Another woman here who totally gets Sam's point of view. He can't sh!t money so if it had to be a no then it's a no. Pretty sad if the courts think they can tap out what he has left to love in. That's below poverty level where I'm from. If Sam wasn't a stand up guy he would just quit his job and let the chips fall where they may. If my child wanted a purely financial relational relationship with me, I would step back. It isn't teaching a good lesson that bullying gets you what you want. Either way - at 18 he's either old enough to know better or too immature and needs guidance to be a decent human being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The point is Sam would be financially precarious even if he didn't divorce. It's hard to support a family of 5 on $60k per year. The divorce sucks, and the ex-wife sucks, but ultimately Sam decided to have 3 kids despite such a low income.

If Sam doesn't pay for the kids, then should the tax payers chip in to pay for the kids he and his ex-wife can't afford?


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## coffee4me

Sam I've been following this thread and it's a real eye opener, I guess even our courts are supporting the entitlement generation. I'm sorry you are in this No Win situation. 



> This page chronicles the discriminatory practice of states requiring a parent to pay child support on a child who is 18 years or older. *These laws permit a burden to be imposed upon one class of citizens---divorced or separated parents---that cannot in like circumstances be imposed upon married parents residing together*.


I'm surprised at the number of responses that hold no accountability for your 18 year old son's actions. He is a man in the eyes of the law and yet he holds no responsibility in his lack of respect or even common courtesy to the person that funds his daily expenses. At what age is he ever held responsible then? 
At what age does this young man ever learn that you don't bite the hand that feeds you? 

If your son lived with you, had a job and expected you to pay for college while not speaking to you for an entire year. The advice would be very different. You would have a lot of supporters telling you to put him on an exit plan to get out of the house.

I guess since he doesn't live with you that you are expected to accept his complete lack of respect and courtesy and keep paying into his adulthood, that will surely teach him the right lesson. Entitlement. 

Happy Father's Day Sam , 
I think you are a father trying to do the right thing in the worst of situations.


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## tom67

At this point if they make him pay more which of course he can't he should consider any and all options including stopping the payments.


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## long_done

coffee4me said:


> Sam I've been following this thread and it's a real eye opener, I guess even our courts are supporting the entitlement generation. I'm sorry you are in this No Win situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised at the number of responses that hold no accountability for your 18 year old son's actions. He is a man in the eyes of the law and yet he holds no responsibility in his lack of respect or even common courtesy to the person that funds his daily expenses. At what age is he ever held responsible then?
> At what age does this young man ever learn that you don't bite the hand that feeds you?
> 
> If your son lived with you, had a job and expected you to pay for college while not speaking to you for an entire year. The advice would be very different. You would have a lot of supporters telling you to put him on an exit plan to get out of the house.
> 
> I guess since he doesn't live with you that you are expected to accept his complete lack of respect and courtesy and keep paying into his adulthood, that will surely teach him the right lesson. Entitlement.
> 
> Happy Father's Day Sam ,
> I think you are a father trying to do the right thing in the worst of situations.


I agree with this. The son definitely has a big share of the blame, even if it's the evil ex-wife who had a huge influence on him.


----------



## john117

Sam, if the kid graduated HS with a C- gpa chances are he's not going to be a Rhodes scholar immediately. 

Put in a few conditions: 

1. Only pay for 2 years of community college first
2. Subject to him maintaining a 2.5 gpa or better (maybe even higher)
3. Lives at home
4. Major to be agreed by you
5. Review progress every semester
6. Public schools instate only.

C- gpa students make great targets for for-profit schools...

I could send Octomom's kids to community college for a decade with what I'm paying for two girls out of state  (one private one public)


----------



## mablenc

I wonder it your ex also makes money under the table. I think that this situation is a bad example for your son. He should be learning to be an upstanding tax paying citizen. I also think that parents should be willing to pay for college if they can afford to but, the also teach their children that it's a privalage not a right. I'm sure your son could have made better grades if he tried. With his grades that low, I agree that community college is the right path, if he does well then good for him. If not at the very least he can learn a trade.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

long_done said:


> The point is Sam would be financially precarious even if he didn't divorce. It's hard to support a family of 5 on $60k per year. The divorce sucks, and the ex-wife sucks, but ultimately Sam decided to have 3 kids despite such a low income.
> 
> If Sam doesn't pay for the kids, then should the tax payers chip in to pay for the kids he and his ex-wife can't afford?


No. My ex wife should get a fvcking job and take her share of the responsibility of having three kids. Contrary to popular belief, women are just as responsible for babies as men are.


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## Lyris

samyeagar said:


> Lyris, et. al...Why is it that none of you have said anything about how maybe my ex wife should take on some of this responsibility? That maybe she should get a job? Why is it that you seem to be feeling that I should shoulder most, if not all of the responsibility here?


I'm responding from your kid's point of view and from the point of view of a parent and of someone who is basically married to your eldest son, 20 years on. Just change NPD to BPD. 

I see the damage done by parental alienation because I live with it.

What would be the point of me saying your ex wife should get a job? I mean, yes, obviously she should get a job. I don't believe in alimony, except in exceptional cases such as a parent caring for a profoundly disabled child. But so what if I think that? Is she going to read this and see the light? 

I'm dealing with the reality of your situation, which sucks no matter what. 

If it were me in that situation my *number one priority* would be to do everything possible to maximise the chance of having a relationship with my adult child/children. And that would include not doing anything that could be construed as a rejection, which in my mind filing for a reduction in support and not contributing to college could easily be.

You posted this thread asking for opinions. Mine is that you should contribute to college costs, perhaps with the portion of child support that would usually end at 18. And withdraw your request for disclosure, to make it more likely that your son will be able to apply for financial aid. Again, you chose to put your kids in this position. 

As for the posters saying that they had no help from their parents and made it through tertiary education, is the financial and educational landscape exactly the same as 15/20 years ago? Because it certainly isn't where I live. It's far more expensive to attend university and there is less help available.


----------



## Lyris

Oh and I would be saying exactly the same thing if the genders were reversed. Exactly.


----------



## long_done

samyeagar said:


> No. My ex wife should get a fvcking job and take her share of the responsibility of having three kids. Contrary to popular belief, women are just as responsible for babies as men are.


Agree with you...but it is sadly not the case. The courts also side with mothers traditionally so you have an uphill battle to climb.


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## Maricha75

Lyris, I can't speak for how child support works in Australia, but the way it is here, it goes through the Friend of the Court (really have no clue why they call it that). Anyway, payments are taken out at the end of each pay period, usually, and sent to FoC. FoC cuts a check to the parent who receives the child support. I believe he said the disclosure inquiry was part of the process to reduce the child support payments to his ex. And what his ex wants is the child support and for him to pay for college. He can't do both. So, to withdraw the inquiry means to withdraw the petition to pay his ex so much, and potentially have to pay even more, which he can't do.

As for costs of college education now, from everything I have heard from those going now, it has increased. However, as one whose parents didn't pay for mine, I can honestly say that we were on lie low end of "middle class" when I graduated high school. Then, by the time my sister did, dad was on disability, further reducing the income. So, was it the same as it is now? No. Was it comparable, at least in the case of my family? You bet it was!

To reiterate: the premise of this thread wasn't for Sam to get out of helping his son. He is trying to point out one thing: he. cannot. afford. BOTH child support AND paying for his son's education. He can pay his ex and hope she pays that portion toward his son's education... or he can petition to pay child support for the remaining children, allowing him to contribute to his son's education. He can't do both. So, given those circumstances? I'd petition, still. But then, I already know my husband and I will not be able to help our kids pay for college. I'm praying they are able to get scholarships and grants so they don't need a lot of loans.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Maricha75

samyeagar said:


> No. My ex wife should get a fvcking job and take her share of the responsibility of having three kids. Contrary to popular belief, women are just as responsible for babies as men are.


No argument from me!!


----------



## Lyris

So ordinarily child support would just continue indefinitely? I understood the situation to be that usually child support ends at 18. But that Sam's ex applied to have him continue to pay so the money could go towards college. Is she asking that the same child support be paid beyond 18 and that he also contribute toward college? 

I find it really hard to believe that a court would agree to that. And I still don't really see why the son's under the table earnings need to be disclosed, especially as they are probably below the tax free threshold. Yes, disclose the adults' financial situation, but I don't see the son's as being important here, certainly not important enough to risk further resentment.


----------



## Maricha75

Any money I made in high school had to be reported, too. I earned mine legitimately, not under the table. And my parents' income was reported as well, for the FAFSA. I got max/near max Pell Grant, but still mom and dad were expected to contribute. They could not, so I got loans. Sam said early on that each is expected to provide 1/3. So, yes, the boy's income needs to be known.

What bothers me is why did they wait until after graduation to start the paperwork for financial aid? That is usually done during the last few months of school, like right after taxes are done. At this rate, he won't go anyway because of procrastination! 

Now, looking back, I reread and saw the ex requested a stay on the child support, until the decision is made regarding funding for college. So, he's paying, but it's not being saved. At least, that's the impression I get from reading that. So, there's a chance he will have to pay the support AND college funds, at least until the reduction is possibly granted. Sam, do I have that right? Essentially, you're willing to pay, but can't pay child support for all three as well as tuition for one of those three, during the months it takes the courts to get their heads out of their asses? Plus, it would be nice if the kids would actually acknowledge what you do, rather than eat up what their mom says? Still agree with you, Sam. The boy needs to take responsibility and he needs to make an effort with his dad!

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Openminded

To answer Lyris: Yes, child support generally ends at 18. But sometimes you have a person like Sam's ex-wife who, with a sympathetic judge, will try to get more. 

There are many bad stories out there when it comes to child support in the U. S. Judges often have their own agendas. Which is why many people -- men and women both -- rightly fear ending up in Family Court. It doesn't always go bad but it can.


----------



## frusdil

jld said:


> What about a woman who has been a SAHM for 20 years and finds out her husband is having an affair? She should not get alimony?
> 
> If a woman has devoted her life to her family for two decades, she forfeited that time that could have gone to developing a career. Doesn't there need to be some recompense for that?


In the short term yes, but permanently? Nope. A man should not be responsible for his wife after divorce. Children, absolutely but ex wife? No.


----------



## jld

frusdil said:


> In the short term yes, but permanently? Nope. A man should not be responsible for his wife after divorce. Children, absolutely but ex wife? No.


If they both agreed she should be a SAHM those 20 years? And he has an affair and ends the marriage? 

Those 20 years she could have put into a career should not be compensated?


----------



## frusdil

long_done said:


> OP - you have my sympathies.
> 
> However, realistically, you chose to have 3 kids with a horrible woman, and you're paying the price now.
> 
> Is it fair? Probably not, but life is not fair.
> 
> I gave extremely serious consideration about how many kids I could afford, and made sure I would be okay paying the financial burden before having the kids.
> 
> If I was irresponsible and had too many kids than what I could afford, married or divorced, that would be on me, my responsibility and failure.
> 
> Sorry you're in this situation, and it sucks, but you made the choice to have 3 kids...


OMG WTF??????

You can't possibly be serious!!!!


----------



## frusdil

long_done said:


> If Sam doesn't pay for the kids, then should the tax payers chip in to pay for the kids he and his ex-wife can't afford?


Of course not - his ex wife should get off her a rse and get a friggin' job!!!


----------



## frusdil

Lyris said:


> Is she asking that the same child support be paid beyond 18 and that he also contribute toward college?


Yes, she wants him to continue to pay the same amount of child support, alimony AND half of college costs. He proposed that he would pay half of college fees, continue child support if she agreed to reduce the amount alimony he pays her. She refused because she wouldn't have enough to live on.

<edited for language>


----------



## long_done

frusdil said:


> Of course not - his ex wife should get off her a rse and get a friggin' job!!!


LOL so should my STBXW, but guess what, no way on God's green earth will I be able to force her to do that.

Life would be perfect if only other people would do what we wish, LOL


----------



## long_done

frusdil said:


> OMG WTF??????
> 
> You can't possibly be serious!!!!


Why the heck not?

Even if the OP was not divorcing, living on $60k for a family of 5 is very difficult. 

How would you propose helping the OP? Are you willing to donate some hard earned cash of your own?

If you are so serious and adamant, let's see you send some money his way...


----------



## Openminded

jld said:


> If they both agreed she should be a SAHM those 20 years? And he has an affair and ends the marriage?
> 
> Those 20 years she could have put into a career should not be compensated?


Being a SAHM/SAHD is a risk. What someone means today is not what they might mean at some point down the road. Unfortunately, life can change quickly. And where you live ends up determining whether you get alimony for three years or for however many years you were married or how long you have to be married (I think it's usually ten years) to be eligible for alimony. Live in one state and you could get alimony for 20 years if you were married 20 years. It may be even for life. But live in another state and you might just get only three years of alimony for those twenty years of marriage. We all go into marriage thinking it will be forever and we don't have to worry. But that's often not the case and the risk is there.


----------



## jld

You're right, Openminded. It is a risk. 

Dh always says that he feels lucky I trusted him enough to take that risk. I just feel lucky he offered me the opportunity.


----------



## Openminded

jld said:


> You're right, Openminded. It is a risk.
> 
> Dh always says that he feels lucky I trusted him enough to take that risk. I just feel lucky he offered me the opportunity.


You are both lucky. Others here are too. Because there's a lot of bad stuff out there. We see it every day.


----------



## tom67

long_done said:


> The point is Sam would be financially precarious even if he didn't divorce. It's hard to support a family of 5 on $60k per year. The divorce sucks, and the ex-wife sucks, but ultimately Sam decided to have 3 kids despite such a low income.
> 
> If Sam doesn't pay for the kids, then should the tax payers chip in to pay for the kids he and his ex-wife can't afford?


She should get a job it's called consequences dude.


----------



## long_done

tom67 said:


> She should get a job it's called consequences dude.


I don't disagree but the courts will typically side with the mother against the father. Sam's got a long hill to climb.


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## tom67

long_done said:


> I don't disagree but the courts will typically side with the mother against the father. Sam's got a long hill to climb.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Lyris

Frusdil why are you getting so angry about this? Calm down.

I don't really believe that any judge would say, yes, you must pay child support beyond what is normal ie 18, AND pay half of college costs.


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## Maricha75

Lyris said:


> Frusdil why are you getting so angry about this? Calm down.
> 
> I don't really believe that any judge would say, yes, you must pay child support beyond what is normal ie 18, AND pay half of college costs.


Unfortunately, there are some who would do this. They may be few and far between, but they exist. Generally, those are the ones who want to make a name for themselves, so they do outlandish things. Unlikely? Sure. Impossible? Not with the US courts.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Wolfman1968

long_done said:


> Agree with you...but it is sadly not the case. The courts also side with mothers traditionally so you have an uphill battle to climb.


Which is exactly the point. Sam is not getting screwed by his decision to have 3 kids, he is getting screwed by a biased court.

Look, in a state where the percentages for child support are set, it was judicial discretion to add on paying for vehicles and insurance (instead of having custodial mother pay out of the support).

You're way off base on blaming Sam.


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## Wolfman1968

jld said:


> If they both agreed she should be a SAHM those 20 years? And he has an affair and ends the marriage?
> 
> Those 20 years she could have put into a career should not be compensated?


She WAS compensated. By getting half of the accumulated assets from those 20 years. She doesn't have the right to subject him to indefinite peonage from that point on.

And are you telling me that only women who get cheated on get alimony? Or that it should ONLY be for the special cases of cheating?


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## Wolfman1968

long_done said:


> Why the heck not?
> 
> Even if the OP was not divorcing, living on $60k for a family of 5 is very difficult.
> 
> How would you propose helping the OP? Are you willing to donate some hard earned cash of your own?
> 
> If you are so serious and adamant, let's see you send some money his way...


It's only $60k BECAUSE THE EX-WIFE REFUSES TO GET OFF HER BUTT AND GET A JOB!

Even at $10/hr, that 's an extra $20,000 for a standard 40 hr work week x 50 weeks (2 weeks vacation).

And if she's so poor, how can she afford $800 cheerleading camps and $3500 trumpets? If it's so tight to support 5 people on $60k, then those issues shouldn't even be coming up.


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## Wolfman1968

Based on the percentages Sam quoted earlier, he could be living in Illinois (which is also a state that, according to case law, allows the assignment of college expenses):


_*(from a Child Support Website):

Child Support:
The court may order either or both parents owing a duty of support to a child of the marriage to pay an amount reasonable and necessary for his support, without regard to marital misconduct. Illinois uses income percentage model to calculate child support using the following guidelines:

One child equals 20% of supporting party’s net income.
Two children equals 28% of the supporting party’s net income.
Three children equals 32% of the supporting party’s net income.
Four children equals 40% of the supporting party’s net income.
Five children equals 45% of the supporting party’s net income.
Six or more children equals 50% of the supporting party’s net income.
The term "child" shall include any child under age 18 and any child under age 19 who is still attending high school. The above guidelines shall be applied in each case unless the court makes a finding that application of the guidelines would be inappropriate, after considering the best interests of the child in light of evidence including but not limited to one or more of the following relevant factors:

The financial resources and needs of the child.
The financial resources and needs of the custodial parent.
The standard of living the child would have enjoyed had the marriage not been dissolved.
The physical and emotional condition of the child, and his educational needs.
The financial resources and needs of the non-custodial parent.
[Based on Illinois Compiled Statutes 750 - Chapter 5 - Section: 505]*_


----------



## long_done

Wolfman1968 said:


> It's only $60k BECAUSE THE EX-WIFE REFUSES TO GET OFF HER BUTT AND GET A JOB!
> 
> Even at $10/hr, that 's an extra $20,000 for a standard 40 hr work week x 50 weeks (2 weeks vacation).
> 
> And if she's so poor, how can she afford $800 cheerleading camps and $3500 trumpets? If it's so tight to support 5 people on $60k, then those issues shouldn't even be coming up.


LOL I'm facing the same issue man. How do you force her to work?

Are you going to go over there and physically force her to work? 

A single mother can easily tell the court how hard it is to get a full time job while supporting 3 kids. 

I'm not blaming Sam fully, but he did put himself into this situation by having 3 kids with a woman who refuses to work. Now what can Sam do about it? What can you do about it?


----------



## Wolfman1968

long_done said:


> LOL I'm facing the same issue man. How do you force her to work?
> 
> Are you going to go over there and physically force her to work?
> 
> A single mother can easily tell the court how hard it is to get a full time job while supporting 3 kids.
> 
> I'm not blaming Sam fully, but he did put himself into this situation by having 3 kids with a woman who refuses to work. Now what can Sam do about it? What can you do about it?


The same way many courts do it for noncustodial fathers. IMPUTING income for someone WILLFULLY underemployed.

That happens all the time.


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## long_done

Wolfman1968 said:


> The same way many courts do it for noncustodial fathers. IMPUTING income for someone WILLFULLY underemployed.
> 
> That happens all the time.


So easy, why don't you go ahead and help the OP do it?

:smthumbup:


----------



## Omego

coffee4me said:


> I'm surprised at the number of responses that hold no accountability for your 18 year old son's actions. He is a man in the eyes of the law and yet he holds no responsibility in his lack of respect or even common courtesy to the person that funds his daily expenses. At what age is he ever held responsible then?
> At what age does this young man ever learn that you don't bite the hand that feeds you?
> 
> .


:iagree: :iagree: This is what I alluded to several pages ago. Besides the fact that the OP simply doesn't have the funds, his son's behavior is unacceptable, no matter what the origin (manipulation, etc.).

There seems to be so little money as it is, that I don't understand why the exW cannot get a job. At this stage, both parents should be supporting THEIR children, not one parent supporting the children plus the able-bodied exW! She is fit no? A yoga instructor?

Once again, I cannot comment on the legal aspects, but I don't understand how the courts could order the OP to fund college costs (ie. him having resort to taking out a loan perhaps?) because he wouldn't be able to repay the debt.

I think the OP should follow the procedure and not pay 1 cent more. There should be consequences for bad behavior (notably the son's disrespect).


----------



## Caribbean Man

I have been following this thread closely as an outsider to the US and I find it mind boggling.

In our country , the amount the father is mandated to pay in child support is set by a judge in the family courts after reviewing his income , living expenses, the woman's income and ability and so on.
The state takes up the tab for divorced single parents that falls below a certain line.
I don't think I've ever heard of a case where a man was ordered to pay 75% of his salary !

With respect to tertiary education , basically it is free , the state pays for that so everyone is guaranteed a spot if they qualify.

Sammy , I can only hope that somehow things work out for you in a way that your kids aren't alienated from you for the rest of your life.

Almost seems as if you're being punished for being the good man that you are.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Caribbean Man said:


> I have been following this thread closely as an outsider to the US and I find it mind boggling.
> 
> In our country , the amount the father is mandated to pay in child support is set by a judge in the family courts after reviewing his income , living expenses, the woman's income and ability and so on.
> The state takes up the tab for divorced single parents that falls below a certain line.
> I don't think I've ever heard of a case where a man was ordered to pay 75% of his salary !
> 
> With respect to tertiary education , basically it is free , the state pays for that so everyone is guaranteed a spot if they qualify.
> 
> Sammy , I can only hope that somehow things work out for you in a way that your kids aren't alienated from you for the rest of your life.
> 
> Almost seems as if you're being punished for being the good man that you are.


It seems to me he prefers complaining about it vs. doing anything about it. No, in the US the person paying support never has to give up 75% of his income. There is a maximum support calculation but it's up to a certain percentage of the payer's income. He is focused on the 6K so let him.

He has given every reason why he can't instead of listening to the things he can do. And he doesn't even have the balls to press for a relationship with his kids. I think there is a lot of missing info here.


----------



## samyeagar

Just to reiterate and clarify...my ex wife objected to the normal reduction in child support and is asking for it to continue while my son is enrolled in college. She is also requesting that I pay for his college related expenses including room and board and transportation costs. Yes, she is attempting to double dip. The standard order is for the costs to be split 1/3 of the out of pocket costs be split equally between each party, father, mother, and student. She is claiming extraordinary circumstances, that I am financially able, and she is not, nor is my son, therefore it should be my full responsibility. I am having to provide all of my financials as part of their discovery request, and they also supoenad my STBW's and parents info, as they have been supporting me. I requested hers and my sons because in a normal situation, they should take equal responsibility. I am not just going to take their word on it that their situation is so dire as to simply agree on faith. I also requested all documents related to what colleges he's applied to, been accepted to, financial aid he's applied for, been granted, etc. I have been denied any input into his higher education pursuits, and if I am to be expected to contribute, I should have all the cards on the table, and the judge should as well so that he can make a fully informed decision.

As far as what I contribute to my childrens and ex wife's household...I know what their basic living expenses are because I lived there...I pay enough to cover rent, utilities, their phones, cable, internet, I pay their van, with about 600 left for food. I cover all of their basic living necessities....the problem really is my ex's way of thinking...for example...their rent is 1000/month, and since there are four of them living in the house, 750 of that is because of the kids, therefore, I don't provide enough...in reality, where she lives, a 1 bedroom house wouldrun about 700/ month, so if she lived by herself, she'd need to come up with that for herslef, but she is effectively claiming that it would only cost her 300.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

EnjoliWoman said:


> It seems to me he prefers complaining about it vs. doing anything about it. No, in the US the person paying support never has to give up 75% of his income. There is a maximum support calculation but it's up to a certain percentage of the payer's income. He is focused on the 6K so let him.
> 
> He has given every reason why he can't instead of listening to the things he can do. And he doesn't even have the balls to press for a relationship with his kids. I think there is a lot of missing info here.


Oh there are so many things wrong with this and what you are focusing on, but I do call BS on the 75%...true, I am not handing over 75% in cash. I am paying the standard percentage in child support, but there are no percentages for alimony...that is soley the courts discression. She gets 20% of my gross in alimony. When you throw in the van, the health, vision and dental insurance costs, the half of all extra currirular activities, yes, the value of the package going directly to that household is 75% of my gross income.

Being the mother in your situation, who has had primary costody of her younger kids...your situation, and how to handle it is very different than mine. Since you are all about actions here, what actions should I be taking beyond what I am doing to have that relationship with my kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

I don't know what else Sam could do being forced to pay more which of course be can't. :scratchhead:


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## samyeagar

My ex wife asked me to voluntarily give up my visitations with the kids, and I refused. She went to court to try and get the court to remove them. Her grounds were that since the kids has such busy extracurricular and social calendars that the travel time and time away would be detrimental to the stability of their lives. The courts released my oldest two from visitation based on their testimony. They did not release my youngest. Of course, I have no idea what was said to the judge or by the judge in those conversations as he spoke with the kids alone, and will not disclose the contents of said conversations. It obviously couldn't have been anything too bad or else I would have lost my youngest as well.

My ex wife wanted me to voluntarily agree to have the kids' last names changed to her maiden name. I did not agree, and she petitioned the court to compel and allow the name change. I prevailed on that one, but as soon as my oldest turned 18, she got the paperwork going for the name change. The funny thing is, she still hasn't changed back to her maiden name herself...


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## samyeagar

A bit more about what I am dealing with in her...when I come to pick up my youngest, I am not allowed to park in her driveway. I have to park in the street. There was one time that my son wasn't ready and I had parked in her driveway and waited on her front porch. She called a tow truck and had me towed. Now, she just parks the van blocking the driveway. I am not allowed to come up to her door to pick up my son. She called the police once to have me removed while I waited on the bench, minding my own business. Am I an ass when I am there or anything like that you may ask? Not in the least. Most of the time, not a word is spoken. She has since relented because the police basically told her to grow up, and that they would not respond unless there was a physical or verbal disturbance of some kind.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

golfergirl said:


> If Sam wasn't a stand up guy he would just quit his job and let the chips fall where they may. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know about all jurisdictions but here if a person quits their job or accepts one that pays less the judge can impute what you are capable of making and base support off that...so even that is not a viable tactive.

Unfortunately the system is built around catching weasels however more often catches those that are trying to do the right thing. The really unfortunate part is those parents that truly are weasels seem to still be able to get away without paying their share while those that are stand up parents get raked over the coals. 

Maybe this stuff should be jury trials rather than rulings by judges.


----------



## samyeagar

MaritimeGuy said:


> *I don't know about all jurisdictions but here if a person quits their job or accepts one that pays less the judge can impute what you are capable of making and base support off that...so even that is not a viable tactive*.
> 
> Unfortunately the system is built around catching weasels however more often catches those that are trying to do the right thing. The really unfortunate part is those parents that truly are weasels seem to still be able to get away without paying their share while those that are stand up parents get raked over the coals.
> 
> Maybe this stuff should be jury trials rather than rulings by judges.


THIS! In one of the earliest divorce hearings, the Judge specifically warned me of exactly that...that my support would be based off of my earning potential as demonstrated by my job history, and not my actual income...


----------



## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> THIS! In one of the earliest divorce hearings, the Judge specifically warned me of exactly that...that my support would be based off of my earning potential as demonstrated by my job history, and not my actual income...


It's would have been better to lose your job while you were still married then file for divorce much later then she could have 75% of nothing.


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## MaritimeGuy

There is no doubt the whole thing leaves a sour taste in your mouth. From my experience you're essentially treated as guilty on all fronts until proven innocent. 

Sam...some people seem to be coming down on you but I like to think that's because you're here. I'd like to believe that if your ex showed up they would be ripping her a new one. The tactics you've attributed to her are a disgrace to parenthood. She should be ashamed of herself. As much as they may hate their ex a mature adult will do everything in their power to maintain the relationship between the kids and the ex. Kids can't have too many people that love them. Anyone who tries to get in the middle of that should have their parenting license revoked.

Keep up the good fight. Like I said in another post I do believe your kids will emerge from the fog one day and clue in to everything you're done for them.


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## jld

Wolfman1968 said:


> She WAS compensated. By getting half of the accumulated assets from those 20 years. She doesn't have the right to subject him to indefinite peonage from that point on.
> 
> And are you telling me that only women who get cheated on get alimony? Or that it should ONLY be for the special cases of cheating?


I am just giving an example. 

Yes, they share the assets, but her time was invested in raising the kids, with his agreement. His time went into building a career. 

When they move on, his career does not change, plus he has his half of the assets. She is starting from scratch at mid-life. 

The alimony is to compensate her for the part of his career she made possible: her dedication to the family allowed him to focus on his career.


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> I am just giving an example.
> 
> Yes, they share the assets, but her time was invested in raising the kids, with his agreement. His time went into building a career.
> 
> When they move on, his career does not change, plus he has his half of the assets. She is starting from scratch at mid-life.
> 
> The alimony is to compensate her for the part of his career she made possible: her dedication to the family allowed him to focus on his career.


You're right in that it was a choice that was made and supported by both of us. In retrospect, that was a mistake on my part. Six years ago, when the kids started going to school full time, I should have pressed her to go back to school, or get a job. To do something other than be a full time volunteer. She sat and watched out finances crumble as she continued to enroll the kids in extracurriculars. At one point, we had three kids in orchestra, along with private music lessons, two kids in ice skating with private lessons, one in karate with private lessons, and one in private cheerleading. That is in addition to sports and band through the schools. We were spending over 3k a month just on that. Her response was for me to get a second job.

My biggest mistake was not putting my foot down and taking control of my marriage, of my finances. I take responsibility for that portion of the mess I find myself in.

She has a super mom complex and has to be the one to plan all the classroom activities, to be the mom that runs other peoples kids around, that always has the neighborhood kids over at the house.

She fully expects, and even made the argument to the court that she was trying to maintain things as close to the way it was, and in the best way she can for the sake of the children. Well, I'm sorry but things change in a divorce, everybody has to adjust, and that includes her.

If I made significantly more than I do right now, and actually had enough to fully support myself, I wouldn't be bothered by this honestly. I'd happily fork the money over, if nothing else than to just shut her up. If I had enough left over, the 75%, I wouldn't say a thing about it. It's not about the money, or even trying to be right, or fair or any of that. It is about my own survival here.


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## Dad&Hubby

Sam, I truly feel for you. I divorced my ex over a dozen years ago. Your ex and my ex sound almost identical. She's spiteful, manipulative, controlling and vindictive. My wife had a 3 year affair with our neighbor during our marriage and when we divorced took that relationship further. They are now married and, aside from sleeping with my wife at the time....LOL...is actually a truly good guy. 

He has been the grounding force in that house which has kept my ex's psycho behaviors in check and we've grown to the point where we co-parent fairly well. She's still selfish, but aside from that she's not bad.

Unfortunately it sounds like your divorce was later in the game and noone is putting her in check within her own psychosis. You moving forward took away that control from her so now she's trying to punish you.


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## long_done

Sam why didn't you fight for custody of 1 or 2 of the kids? When you have custody of the kids, or the more time they spend with you, the less child support you have to pay.

Your ex "SHOULD" work more to support the kids but she chooses not to. Seems like you should have fought to have custody instead of being just a check writer and complaining about it??


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## long_done

BURNT KEP said:


> It's would have been better to lose your job while you were still married then file for divorce much later then she could have 75% of nothing.


Easier said than done. That would have been a horrible option as the kids would be deprived of basic housing and food, if Sam as the main breadwinner quit his job just to get back at his ex-wife.

Not to mention, he only made $60k, which is barely survivable for a 3 kids and a man / wife to live on. If he quit, who knows if or how long before he finds another job making the same amount of money or less? I have a friend who quit a $60k job due to stress only to be jobless for nearly a year before finding another job only making $45k.

The kids need to be the main focus here. Your advice is terrible.


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## long_done

samyeagar said:


> A bit more about what I am dealing with in her...when I come to pick up my youngest, I am not allowed to park in her driveway. I have to park in the street. There was one time that my son wasn't ready and I had parked in her driveway and waited on her front porch. She called a tow truck and had me towed. Now, she just parks the van blocking the driveway. I am not allowed to come up to her door to pick up my son. She called the police once to have me removed while I waited on the bench, minding my own business. Am I an ass when I am there or anything like that you may ask? Not in the least. Most of the time, not a word is spoken. She has since relented because the police basically told her to grow up, and that they would not respond unless there was a physical or verbal disturbance of some kind.


Did you document this and present it to the court? Sounds like abuse and yet the court continue to side with her?? I would have gone bankrupt to keep custody of the kids in this case...hired the best lawyers and protected my interests and the kids interests. Sounds like you're only complaining about this well after the fact, when one of the kids is ready to go to college???

And she sounds like a horrible mother, why did you let her keep custody of the kids, that you profess to love and care for?

And again, you chose to have 3 kids with this God awful person? What were you thinking? When someone is that nasty, they don't change overnight, they usually are a terrible person to begin with. You didn't suspect or have a clue after the 1st kid?


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## jld

From what I understand, long done, sam's wife has NPD. Sam was probably a nice guy, and passive. Or he just could not assert some authority in his marriage, if he did try.


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## tom67

jld said:


> From what I understand, long done, sam's wife has NPD. Sam was probably a nice guy, and passive. Or he just could not assert some authority in his marriage, if he did try.


Well that's water over the bridge now he is in survival mode thanks to the black robed demon and court in general enabling her behavior.


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## long_done

tom67 said:


> Well that's water over the bridge now he is in survival mode thanks to the black robed demon and court in general enabling her behavior.


Seems like Sam has lousy lawyers, or he really didn't try very hard to fight this evil woman.. I would have hired the best guns in the state to fight for my rights and my kids rights, rather than roll over, and appealed this all the way to the state supreme court...


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## long_done

jld said:


> From what I understand, long done, sam's wife has NPD. Sam was probably a nice guy, and passive. Or he just could not assert some authority in his marriage, if he did try.


What is NPD?


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## samyeagar

See...horrible mother is in the eye of the beholder. She has never been verbally or physically abusive to them. In every way, she has made it very clear to anyone who would listen that her children are her life, she'd give and do anything for them. I did explore taking custody of them very early on in the process when I was screening attorneys. To the one, none of them thought I stood a chance.

Yes, I made many mistakes in this whole process because I never dreamed it would come down to this. I figured we would be able to co parent, that I would have access to my children, that we would be able to peacefully coexist. I was looking into a place to stay in the same town, and even working with her to find something that was acceptable to her for the kids. The problems first started when the court shot down her original request of lifetime alimony at 25%, and instead awarded five years at 20%. She feels as if the court has taken away from her.


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## tom67

long_done said:


> What is NPD?


narcissistic personality disorder.


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> From what I understand, long done, sam's wife has NPD. Sam was probably a nice guy, and passive. Or he just could not assert some authority in his marriage, if he did try.


I freely admit that I allowed her to chew me up and spit me out. I was passive, didn't want to rock the boat, try to get by within the rules she set. That was my biggest failure...not taking control. What I am going through now is her reaction to me trying to stand up for myself and no longer just rolling over.


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## tom67

samyeagar said:


> I freely admit that I allowed her to chew me up and spit me out. I was passive, didn't want to rock the boat, try to get by within the rules she set. That was my biggest failure...not taking control. What I am going through now is her reaction to me trying to stand up for myself and no longer just rolling over.


:iagree::iagree:


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## BURNT KEP

long_done said:


> Easier said than done. That would have been a horrible option as the kids would be deprived of basic housing and food, if Sam as the main breadwinner quit his job just to get back at his ex-wife.
> 
> Not to mention, he only made $60k, which is barely survivable for a 3 kids and a man / wife to live on. If he quit, who knows if or how long before he finds another job making the same amount of money or less? I have a friend who quit a $60k job due to stress only to be jobless for nearly a year before finding another job only making $45k.
> 
> The kids need to be the main focus here. Your advice is terrible.


It wasn't advise it was a joke. I would never want to see any kid suffer. But he is paying 75% of his income and this is right? If he did not have his girlfriend he would be living in his car. I am in the same boat that if I left there would not be enough money to support 2 households.


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## samyeagar

BURNT KEP said:


> It wasn't advise it was a joke. I would never want to see any kid suffer. But he is paying 75% of his income and this is right? If he did not have his girlfriend he would be living in his car. I am in the same boat that if I left there would not be enough money to support 2 households.


Funny you should mention this...my ex did contact DCFS (Dept of Child and Family Services) early on suggesting that my STBW's house was not acceptable living conditions for my kids to come visit and other arrangements needed to be made. There was no investigation needed and she was shot down...because my STBW is a DCFS certified foster parent.


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## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> Funny you should mention this...my ex did contact DCFS (Dept of Child and Family Services) early on suggesting that my STBW's house was not acceptable living conditions for my kids to come visit and other arrangements needed to be made. There was no investigation needed and she was shot down...because my STBW is a DCFS certified foster parent.


What a piece of work. Too bad we do not see people for who they really are before we marry them. It would save us a ton of money and heart ache.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

Another bit of perspective, and defeat for her. She filed a motion to stop me from taking my youngest to church with my STBW and I. Her grounds were that she had equal say in the religious upbringing of the children and did not agree to him attending with us. When we were married, we didn't regularly attend any church, but there were never any issues with our kids attending with friends and family and such. They continue to attend with friends. They have and continue to go to Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Unitarian, Evangelical Christian, even gone to Synagogue a few times with friends, and she allows that without issue. The church my STBW and I attend is a liberal ecumenical christian church, so nothing out there like speaking in tongues, snake handling etc. He enjoys going with us, and looks forward to it actually. Well, she filed a petition to stop it on the grounds stated above, and I had to argue that what we are doing is no different than what she allows with other people. We are not trying to have him baptized or anything like that, and he is going of his own free will. We would not compell him to go if he had any objections to going. The judge sided with me, and he is now allowed to go. The point is, I should never have had to defend that in the first place.


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## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> Another bit of perspective, and defeat for her. She filed a motion to stop me from taking my youngest to church with my STBW and I. Her grounds were that she had equal say in the religious upbringing of the children and did not agree to him attending with us. When we were married, we didn't regularly attend any church, but there were never any issues with our kids attending with friends and family and such. They continue to attend with friends. They have and continue to go to Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Unitarian, Evangelical Christian, even gone to Synagogue a few times with friends, and she allows that without issue. The church my STBW and I attend is a liberal ecumenical christian church, so nothing out there like speaking in tongues, snake handling etc. He enjoys going with us, and looks forward to it actually. Well, she filed a petition to stop it on the grounds stated above, and I had to argue that what we are doing is no different than what she allows with other people. We are not trying to have him baptized or anything like that, and he is going of his own free will. We would not compell him to go if he had any objections to going. The judge sided with me, and he is now allowed to go. The point is, I should never have had to defend that in the first place.


Does she have a lawyer file all these motions? Are these all in front of the same judge? You would think by now that they would see she is a but.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

BURNT KEP said:


> Does she have a lawyer file all these motions? Are these all in front of the same judge? You would think by now that they would see she is a but.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yes, same lawyer, same judge. The judge has stated openly that he is wanting to be very careful in his decisions, and not rush to any conclusions. That was after I found out that my ex wife filed her 2012 tax return and claimed all three kids. That was against the agreement. She refused to file an amended return, so we had to take her to court to get an order for her to comply with the original tax agreement, and file an amended return. We asked the judge for a decision right then, thinking it was clear, by the judge wanted both of our financials to make sure that it was right for me to claim the kids, even with the standing order in place. He wanted to make sure that it wasn't a case where my ex was providing 90% of the income or something like that. She and her attorney got several continuances citing her busy schedule, running a household, not being a tax professional as reasons for the need to delay. It took a bit over a year, but we finally got a ruling on it, and the judge sided with me, so rather than owing about 10k, I only owe 7k. The judge also ordered me to pay the difference in what she owed between her original and amended return. As of right now today, she still hasn't filed her amended return even though she was ordered to in March.


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## MaritimeGuy

I guess her lawyers kids are going to be able to afford to go to college.


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## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> Oh yes, same lawyer, same judge. The judge has stated openly that he is wanting to be very careful in his decisions, and not rush to any conclusions. That was after I found out that my ex wife filed her 2012 tax return and claimed all three kids. That was against the agreement. She refused to file an amended return, so we had to take her to court to get an order for her to comply with the original tax agreement, and file an amended return. We asked the judge for a decision right then, thinking it was clear, by the judge wanted both of our financials to make sure that it was right for me to claim the kids, even with the standing order in place. He wanted to make sure that it wasn't a case where my ex was providing 90% of the income or something like that. She and her attorney got several continuances citing her busy schedule, running a household, not being a tax professional as reasons for the need to delay. It took a bit over a year, but we finally got a ruling on it, and the judge sided with me, so rather than owing about 10k, I only owe 7k. The judge also ordered me to pay the difference in what she owed between her original and amended return. As of right now today, she still hasn't filed her amended return even though she was ordered to in March.


So how did you file that year? Did you have to wait for her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

BURNT KEP said:


> So how did you file that year? Did you have to wait for her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She filed before I did, and told me after the fact, so I had to file claiming none of the kids because she hadn't signed the 8332 form giving me permission to claim the kids. I had to take her to court to get the original decree enforced and her ordered to sign the forms and submit amended returns.

ETA: the delays took it from February 2013 to March 2014 to get it enforced. I asked for the penalties and fees assessed by the IRS to be paid by her since it was her violation that caused them. She asked that I pay back the IRS what she was given as a return so that she would be held harmless financially. The judge ordered the forms signed and returns amended, but granted her request to be held harmless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolfman1968

jld said:


> I am just giving an example.
> 
> Yes, they share the assets, but her time was invested in raising the kids, with his agreement. His time went into building a career.
> 
> When they move on, his career does not change, plus he has his half of the assets. She is starting from scratch at mid-life.
> 
> The alimony is to compensate her for the part of his career she made possible: her dedication to the family allowed him to focus on his career.


The problem with this argument, which is trotted out time and time again, is that it ignores half the equation and assumes facts which aren't even proven (and are not true the majority of cases).

You focus on what the woman (assume the most common arrangement) sacrificed, but never acknowledge what the man sacrifices. 

If instead of being a SAHM, she had worked, he would not have been paying for her food, clothing, housing, insurance, etc. His own financial wealth would have been greater, but he shared that with her. THAT is part of her compensation. As I said before, she gets 1/2 the marital assets, which she did not build up. THAT is part of her compensation.

There is an assumption that he could "focus on his career" because she was a SAHM, but in the VAST majority of cases, that doesn't apply. A woman who marries a man who already has his career/degreee (which is the majority, given the current age of marriage in the US) contributes only a fraction or often not at all to the man's career. For example, a woman who marries a doctor, a lawyer, an executive, etc. marries someone who already has "made it". A woman who marries a laborer, factory worker, or most other blue collar jobs that reach their earning ceiling quickly, don't really "make" a career. The statement that he can "focus on his career" is unproven. In fact, if being married was so essential to the career, then by being divorced he should, by that same argument, lose all that advantage, so there is no ongoing "reward" for her to claim.

More importantly, whatever past contribution which may have been done is far overshadowed, and actually negated by the fact that for the man to earn ANY money in the future, he must expend continued labor to achieve, but she need not do anything. If he decides to quit the next day, not one cent will be earned. It's 100% his future effort. The career is NOT a passive investment like a bond fund, it is only an opportunity to expend time, labor and effort to earn a living. Because any future earnings is depends SOLELY on the man's effort, than any claim on future earnings by the woman must be very small, and therefore easily compensated by the financial support she received during the marriage as well as half the accumulated assets.

To use an analogous but equally ridiculous position, the exact same argument would say that because had not the man's money fed, clothed, housed and provided medical care during her SAHM years, she would have been dead. Therefore, the man should have a claim on a portion of all the rest of her future wealth because without him keeping her alive during those years she wouldn't be able to earn any more wealth. We would laugh at such a ridiculous assertion, but it is the exact same type of thinking those who argue a woman "allowed a man to concentrate on his career" makes. In fact, the argument for the woman is actually much weaker; after all, no one can deny that without the food, housing, etc. the woman (or anyone) would die, but it is quite possible that the woman did not in fact contribute materially to the man's career---in fact, if she was a crappy wife who caused him gried, she may have actually WORSENED his career by disrupting him. 

The worst part of this whole situation is the injustice it creates. There is just something very wrong with a person who is able to sit home, live off another's work and sweat and effort without needing to make any attempts to support herself, as this OP (Sam) illustrates. She gets to pick and choose what she wants to do, yet this same freedom is not afforded to him. He has a yoke of alimony on him--it is, quite literally, peonage. He cannot take a lower paying job that may be more "meaningful" to him, or if he can no longer tolerate the politics, people, hours, demands or whatever in his job, he does not have the freedom that anyone else would to leave the situation unless he is guaranteed of having the means to pay an alimony that was imposed on him through specious, unproven and unjust legal theory.


----------



## Wolfman1968

samyeagar said:


> She filed before I did, and told me after the fact, so I had to file claiming none of the kids because she hadn't signed the 8332 form giving me permission to claim the kids. I had to take her to court to get the original decree enforced and her ordered to sign the forms and submit amended returns.
> 
> ETA: the delays took it from February 2013 to March 2014 to get it enforced. I asked for the penalties and fees assessed by the IRS to be paid by her since it was her violation that caused them. She asked that I pay back the IRS what she was given as a return so that she would be held harmless financially. The judge ordered the forms signed and returns amended, but granted her request to be held harmless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She violates the agreement, yet is held harmless?

THis is clearly bias by the judge. This is the sort of thing that needs to change. Unfortunately, judges are like little dictators in their courtroom, and there is little recourse available.

Although I do not condone any violence at all (obviously), I understand when these men abused by the system snap and become violent (or suicidal). It's not right, but at some level, I can understand their desperation.


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## frusdil

Wolfman1968 said:


> If instead of being a SAHM, she had worked, he would not have been paying for her food, clothing, housing, insurance, etc. His own financial wealth would have been greater, but he shared that with her. THAT is part of her compensation. As I said before, she gets 1/2 the marital assets, *which she did not build u*p. THAT is part of her compensation.
> 
> The worst part of this whole situation is the injustice it creates. There is just something very wrong with a person who is able to sit home, live off another's work and sweat and effort without needing to make any attempts to support herself, as this OP (Sam) illustrates. She gets to pick and choose what she wants to do, yet this same freedom is not afforded to him. He has a yoke of alimony on him--it is, quite literally, peonage.


I'm dead against lifetime alimony, or any past about a year (the only exception being if the wife cares for a severely disabled child(ren) )- the best thing a man can do for his kids is make sure mum has a leg up...I get that.

I also strongly disagree with your assertion that a SAHM contributes nothing to the marital assets. That is just not true. I'm a SAHM and find that view very offensive.

I DO 100% agree with your last paragraph as to how unjust the system is over there, and the situation that Sam finds himself in. It's absolute BS and he has my absolute support - which he knows. What he's going through is nothing short of disgusting and his ex wife should hang her head in shame. She's a disgrace to women everywhere.


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## alphaomega

So what's going on?

Are you keeping the discovery in place or not?


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## samyeagar

Wolfman1968 said:


> The problem with this argument, which is trotted out time and time again, is that it ignores half the equation and assumes facts which aren't even proven (and are not true the majority of cases).
> 
> You focus on what the woman (assume the most common arrangement) sacrificed, but never acknowledge what the man sacrifices.
> 
> If instead of being a SAHM, she had worked, he would not have been paying for her food, clothing, housing, insurance, etc. His own financial wealth would have been greater, but he shared that with her. THAT is part of her compensation. As I said before, she gets 1/2 the marital assets, which she did not build up. THAT is part of her compensation.
> 
> There is an assumption that he could "focus on his career" because she was a SAHM, but in the VAST majority of cases, that doesn't apply. A woman who marries a man who already has his career/degreee (which is the majority, given the current age of marriage in the US) contributes only a fraction or often not at all to the man's career. For example, a woman who marries a doctor, a lawyer, an executive, etc. marries someone who already has "made it". A woman who marries a laborer, factory worker, or most other blue collar jobs that reach their earning ceiling quickly, don't really "make" a career. The statement that he can "focus on his career" is unproven. In fact, if being married was so essential to the career, then by being divorced he should, by that same argument, lose all that advantage, so there is no ongoing "reward" for her to claim.
> 
> More importantly, whatever past contribution which may have been done is far overshadowed, and actually negated by the fact that for the man to earn ANY money in the future, he must expend continued labor to achieve, but she need not do anything. If he decides to quit the next day, not one cent will be earned. It's 100% his future effort. The career is NOT a passive investment like a bond fund, it is only an opportunity to expend time, labor and effort to earn a living. Because any future earnings is depends SOLELY on the man's effort, than any claim on future earnings by the woman must be very small, and therefore easily compensated by the financial support she received during the marriage as well as half the accumulated assets.
> 
> To use an analogous but equally ridiculous position, the exact same argument would say that because had not the man's money fed, clothed, housed and provided medical care during her SAHM years, she would have been dead. Therefore, the man should have a claim on a portion of all the rest of her future wealth because without him keeping her alive during those years she wouldn't be able to earn any more wealth. We would laugh at such a ridiculous assertion, but it is the exact same type of thinking those who argue a woman "allowed a man to concentrate on his career" makes. In fact, the argument for the woman is actually much weaker; after all, no one can deny that without the food, housing, etc. the woman (or anyone) would die, but it is quite possible that the woman did not in fact contribute materially to the man's career---in fact, if she was a crappy wife who caused him gried, she may have actually WORSENED his career by disrupting him.
> 
> The worst part of this whole situation is the injustice it creates. There is just something very wrong with a person who is able to sit home, live off another's work and sweat and effort without needing to make any attempts to support herself, as this OP (Sam) illustrates. She gets to pick and choose what she wants to do, yet this same freedom is not afforded to him. He has a yoke of alimony on him--it is, quite literally, peonage. He cannot take a lower paying job that may be more "meaningful" to him, or if he can no longer tolerate the politics, people, hours, demands or whatever in his job, he does not have the freedom that anyone else would to leave the situation unless he is guaranteed of having the means to pay an alimony that was imposed on him through specious, unproven and unjust legal theory.


Interesting you mention a career here. I gave up my career very early on after the birth of our first, hence my oldest, child. I was actually one of the fortunate ones...got a job in the field I studied in college, and was very passionate about. I gave that up because I was not going to be able to support a family on my sole income, and moved to something that was far better paying, but that I didn't really enjoy. I did that so I could support my family, and my ex wife's desire to be a stay at home mom. Her being a SAHM was never talked about before our first was born. It was quite the opposite in fact. She was adamant about going back to work just as soon as she could. We had even picked out a day care. Once she had the baby, and the time for her to go back to work came, she felt the desire to be a SAHM, and I supported her, and took the steps necessary to help make that happen.


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## samyeagar

alphaomega said:


> So what's going on?
> 
> Are you keeping the discovery in place or not?


As of right now, discovery is ongoing and needs to be completed and presented at the status hearing on July 7. I have made no changes to my request at this time.


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## LongWalk

What sort of money does her boyfriend have? He was your daughter's teacher? Jeezus!

She will treat him exactly as she treats you. Of course, as long as he cheerleads her, she will throw him some scraps of manipulation sex.

The discovery is necessary to create a boundary. If you don't put your foot down now, the problems will just continue.

PAS, family court and narcissistic personalities = everyone is screwed

I have a friend who was in the same situation across borders. He prevailed emotionally, as his children began to realize mom was messed up.


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## EnjoliWoman

samyeagar said:


> Oh there are so many things wrong with this and what you are focusing on, but I do call BS on the 75%...true, I am not handing over 75% in cash. I am paying the standard percentage in child support, but there are no percentages for alimony...that is soley the courts discression. She gets 20% of my gross in alimony. When you throw in the van, the health, vision and dental insurance costs, the half of all extra currirular activities, yes, the value of the package going directly to that household is 75% of my gross income.
> 
> Being the mother in your situation, who has had primary costody of her younger kids...your situation, and how to handle it is very different than mine. Since you are all about actions here, what actions should I be taking beyond what I am doing to have that relationship with my kids?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can enforce visitation and should have all along. And when a sullen 17y/o boy comes you should remind him that he can thank you for his home, food, water he bathes with, soap he uses, clothes he wears and so forth and, yes, the law requires you to but you also WANTED to, but he seems to take that for granted. Now that he's working he knows what is required to bring in that money and he should show some appreciation for it. He needs a reality check. But he probably assume you don't give a rat's ass because you haven't made an effort to assert your parental rights for a year.

I don't know if you see the younger two but again, enforce it. Show up and say "come with me" when they are supposed to. If they refuse, I'd serve the mother with orders to compel (I think that's the right term - not an attorney) and/or take her back to court over not enforcing the visitation and if she says the kids don't want to see you, ask the court for a psych eval for parental fitness because you want to know why kids who loved you when you were married, suddenly don't want to have anything to do with you. And then participate. Or you could try to avoid court, assert your visitation and take the kids to family counseling where you participate with them to get to the bottom of their avoidance and feelings.

If it is found the mother is alienating the kids from you, there is a good chance you'll be awarded custody. Maybe you don't want that. But you wouldn't be paying support and could get your own apartment and so what if they had to share a room?

I get it that you are frustrated with the potential of having to pay for more college than you bargained for. But you started this thread focusing on a stupid $6K part time job that your son has getting paid under the table. You completely overlooked the fact that your kids don't want to have anything to do with you! My point was that money is the least of your problems in the whole divorce scenario. Yes, it should be addressed but IMO you are focusing on the wrong things. If the other issues were fixed, the $6K would be moot.


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## EnjoliWoman

MaritimeGuy said:


> There is no doubt the whole thing leaves a sour taste in your mouth. From my experience you're essentially treated as guilty on all fronts until proven innocent.
> 
> Sam...some people seem to be coming down on you but I like to think that's because you're here. I'd like to believe that if your ex showed up they would be ripping her a new one. The tactics you've attributed to her are a disgrace to parenthood. She should be ashamed of herself. As much as they may hate their ex a mature adult will do everything in their power to maintain the relationship between the kids and the ex. Kids can't have too many people that love them. Anyone who tries to get in the middle of that should have their parenting license revoked.
> 
> Keep up the good fight. Like I said in another post I do believe your kids will emerge from the fog one day and clue in to everything you're done for them.


And this is why I think he should fight it. These are classic signs of a personality disorder of the parent resulting in alienating actions. Wanting the kids to not have the father's name? Huge red flag. Minimizing his importance in their lives by saying their extracurricular activities would be interrupted and to suspend visitation completely? BIGGER red flag. (While still wanting his support - huge sense of entitlement.) Obviously he isn't abusive (whatever the 2 older ones said) or the judge would have been required to report to DSS/CPS. The courts are supposed to encourage both parents to remain active in kids' lives.

Edited - asked about family judge. Yes, it appears you have that. I do, too. I guess I was fortunate that both of the judges (first one ran for public office and won so I was reassigned) were level headed people. 

But I'm serious about the psych eval. That's the only way you can prove she's NPD and the psychologist will make a recommendation based on her evaluation. If the exW is diagnosed, a psychologist knows what that does to kids. Right now the kids serve a purpose for her. They make her look good (doting mother) and get her money. The oldest is doing her bidding and she is using him to punish OP. But if any of them cross her, decide they actually want to see Dad, etc. they will feel her wrath. It may just be mean glances, silence treatment, or being cold toward them. It's subtle. But they are being trained to take her side and to find Dad unimportant. And it should be stopped.


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## MaritimeGuy

I agree EnjoliWoman. 

Sadly for the person affected, kids will tend to side with the person they feel they have the most fragile relationship with. In this case the damaged one. They know their father will do whatever he can for them no matter how they treat him whereas they're not so confident with their mother. 

By siding with their mother they are in a sense trying to support her. They know were they to treat their father well their mother would be angry and hurt. 

In my experience though they eventually mature and realize what they've done and how they've been manipulated. Then they will resent the person that manipulated them.


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## MaritimeGuy

EnjoliWoman said:


> You can enforce visitation and should have all along. And when a sullen 17y/o boy comes you should remind him that he can thank you for his home, food, water he bathes with, soap he uses, clothes he wears and so forth and, yes, the law requires you to but you also WANTED to, but he seems to take that for granted. Now that he's working he knows what is required to bring in that money and he should show some appreciation for it. He needs a reality check. But he probably assume you don't give a rat's ass because you haven't made an effort to assert your parental rights for a year.
> 
> I don't know if you see the younger two but again, enforce it. Show up and say "come with me" when they are supposed to. If they refuse, I'd serve the mother with orders to compel (I think that's the right term - not an attorney) and/or take her back to court over not enforcing the visitation and if she says the kids don't want to see you, ask the court for a psych eval for parental fitness because you want to know why kids who loved you when you were married, suddenly don't want to have anything to do with you. And then participate. Or you could try to avoid court, assert your visitation and take the kids to family counseling where you participate with them to get to the bottom of their avoidance and feelings.


The challenge for Sam is that apparently his ex puts him in a difficult position to enforce visitation. As in plans fun trips/vacations during his visitation time. So in order to 'enforce' his visitation he has to choose to take them away from something that would have been fun for them and a positive experience. So they miss out on a great trip, spend the weekend at his place brooding and don't really do anything too exciting because Sam is so strapped financially there is not much he can do to compete.


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## samyeagar

You are right, the job under the table IS just a very minor thing in the grand scheme here. The thing is, I feel as if I were to withdraw my request, along with basically handing over money that I don't have, it would be reinforcing what has been going on all along here in that dad is not worth anything but a paycheck.

I really don't think that my giving up on this is going to cause any kind of 'Oh Hark!' moment in my son. Early on, I did make sure that he had extras like he needed a new pair of shoes, and so I spent $120 on the ones he really wanted, he needed $50 to take his girl friend out, things like that. As soon as I started saying no, I don't have the money, explaining my situation, he started having nothing to do with me. Major point here though, never once have I disparaged his mother, discussed child support, alimony, any of those things with him. I never blamed his mother for my lack of money. I have been very careful about that.

As far as forcing the visitaions, that is so tricky. It would be so much easier if the kids were five instead of 16 and 12. As far as my 18 year old son goes, I can't legally force anything there. As far as my 16 year old daughter goes, the judge already granted her relief from visitation so I have no legal way of compelling her either. I have met very little resistance with my 12 year old son, and we do as much stuff as we can, so I am not so worried yet with him.


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## samyeagar

Now for an update on the actual proceedings...there was a status hearing this morning that was attended by the attorneys. My ex wife withdrew her petitions for increased support and college costs citing that my son is living in his own apartment and is now financially independent. Hmmm...kind of fishy...

And yes, I have already sent a text message to him asking how he's doing and all that...


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## tom67

samyeagar said:


> Now for an update on the actual proceedings...there was a status hearing this morning that was attended by the attorneys. My ex wife withdrew her petitions for increased support and college costs citing that my son is living in his own apartment and is now financially independent. Hmmm...kind of fishy...
> 
> And yes, I have already sent a text message to him asking how he's doing and all that...


Wow that came out of left field.:scratchhead:


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## samyeagar

tom67 said:


> Wow that came out of left field.:scratchhead:


No more discovery. Can't help but feel like I just called a really big bluff...


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## Maricha75

Wait, so he's living on his own, not going to college? I assume the support reduction is still in the works?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> No more discovery. Can't help but feel like I just called a really big bluff...


We'll good news hopefully you will see that reduction ASAP.


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## samyeagar

Maricha75 said:


> Wait, so he's living on his own, not going to college? I assume the support reduction is still in the works?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


That is what she said through her attorney. Sorry, forgot to put this part in there....The child support reduction was ordered today.


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## LongWalk

Your son got poor grades. This may in part be due to the unhealthy family situation. Still, he may benefit by working for a year or joining the military.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## EnjoliWoman

MaritimeGuy said:


> The challenge for Sam is that apparently his ex puts him in a difficult position to enforce visitation. As in plans fun trips/vacations during his visitation time. So in order to 'enforce' his visitation he has to choose to take them away from something that would have been fun for them and a positive experience. So they miss out on a great trip, spend the weekend at his place brooding and don't really do anything too exciting because Sam is so strapped financially there is not much he can do to compete.


And that is a typical alienation tactic. Making the child have to choose and bating them with an alluring choice. I decided to be the 'bad guy' and prevent her from attending something she wanted to. I reinforced that I am just as valuable, if not more so, than that particular event. And I made the visit fun so she would forget the other thing. But those boundaries have to be set the very first time followed up with an email to the parent instructing them to NEVER make plans on MY TIME again.


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## EnjoliWoman

MaritimeGuy said:


> I agree EnjoliWoman.
> 
> Sadly for the person affected, kids will tend to side with the person they feel they have the most fragile relationship with. In this case the damaged one. They know their father will do whatever he can for them no matter how they treat him whereas they're not so confident with their mother.
> 
> By siding with their mother they are in a sense trying to support her. They know were they to treat their father well their mother would be angry and hurt.
> 
> In my experience though they eventually mature and realize what they've done and how they've been manipulated. Then they will resent the person that manipulated them.


Sometimes. But unfortunately alienation is not so simple as the kids realizing Mom was unreasonable and giving Dad a break. Or vice versa in my position.

It depends on how deeply the mother has enmeshed their personalities and how much she reinforces their attitudes toward their father. The oldest might remain estranged forever and the daughter take Mom's side. At least he has a chance with the youngest. And the youngest might have enough guts to stand up to his siblings and remind them to visit, call, recognize holidays, etc.

Sorry - this subject is near and dear to my heart and I'd go back to school and become an attorney at the family law center in a heartbeat if money were no object.


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## samyeagar

EnjoliWoman said:


> And that is a typical alienation tactic. Making the child have to choose and bating them with an alluring choice. I decided to be the 'bad guy' and prevent her from attending something she wanted to. I reinforced that I am just as valuable, if not more so, than that particular event. And I made the visit fun so she would forget the other thing. But those boundaries have to be set the very first time followed up with an email to the parent instructing them to NEVER make plans on MY TIME again.


I have tried similar to this however, telling her not to make plans...well she didn't comply no matter how many times in how many ways I tried to tell her. I filed a rule to show cause for civil contempt that she was not providing free and liberal access as directed in the custody agreement. The judge said that it was her prerogative to schedule, but that she could not physically restrict access during my time, so essentially the judge gave her carte blanche when it came to that. I have had some mild success with making plans and discussing said plans with my youngest a few months in advance and reinforcing and reminding him of them as the time is approaching.


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## samyeagar

EnjoliWoman said:


> Sometimes. But unfortunately alienation is not so simple as the kids realizing Mom was unreasonable and giving Dad a break. Or vice versa in my position.
> 
> It depends on how deeply the mother has enmeshed their personalities and how much she reinforces their attitudes toward their father. The oldest might remain estranged forever and the daughter take Mom's side. At least he has a chance with the youngest. *And the youngest might have enough guts to stand up to his siblings and remind them to visit, call, recognize holidays, etc.*
> 
> Sorry - this subject is near and dear to my heart and I'd go back to school and become an attorney at the family law center in a heartbeat if money were no object.


My youngest has gone out of his way to make sure that I know he doesn't feel the same way as his brother and sister, and has separated himself from them, so I do feel as if I have a chance with him, and I am going to keep working on it.


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## LongWalk

Your youngest may lead the others back to you in a few years time.


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## EnjoliWoman

Wow. Is the judge related to your ex? That is some incredibly egregious ruling! She has zero right to make plans for the kids on your weekend. 

I guess I've been fortunate with both attorneys AND both judges. The second round ex was accusing me of all sorts of things and one of them was a lesbian relationship, implying that my friend temporarily living with me was my 'lovah'.  The judge addressed a few of his complaints (being reasonable) and upon reaching that one said sexuality has no basis on custody. My attorney later told me the judge is gay.    

I'm sorry things haven't gone your way. I hate it when people get screwed by the system. It worked for me so I'm a little Pollyanna that it should work for everyone.


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## samyeagar

EnjoliWoman said:


> Wow. Is the judge related to your ex? That is some incredibly egregious ruling! She has zero right to make plans for the kids on your weekend.
> 
> I guess I've been fortunate with both attorneys AND both judges. The second round ex was accusing me of all sorts of things and one of them was a lesbian relationship, implying that my friend temporarily living with me was my 'lovah'.  The judge addressed a few of his complaints (being reasonable) and upon reaching that one said sexuality has no basis on custody. My attorney later told me the judge is gay.
> 
> I'm sorry things haven't gone your way. I hate it when people get screwed by the system. It worked for me so I'm a little Pollyanna that it should work for everyone.


She tried something similar early on. Filed to try and stop me from bringing my youngest to my STBW's house on moral grounds the she and I slept in the same bed and were not married...I guess she forgot about her boyfriend...but the judge didn't and told her that was not grounds for blocking visitations...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frusdil

Great update Sam!! I'm so happy and relieved for you 

Just a shame you had to go through all that stress beforehand...I bet you feel awesome that you stuck up for yourself.

Go you!!!


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## BURNT KEP

samyeagar said:


> She tried something similar early on. Filed to try and stop me from bringing my youngest to my STBW's house on moral grounds the she and I slept in the same bed and were not married...I guess she forgot about her boyfriend...but the judge didn't and told her that was not grounds for blocking visitations...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just a quick question how does she get all this money for lawyers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frusdil

BURNT KEP said:


> Just a quick question how does she get all this money for lawyers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think Sam has to pay for it! I hope I'm wrong though...he pays for everything else!


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## Wolfman1968

frusdil said:


> I also strongly disagree with your assertion that a SAHM contributes nothing to the marital assets. That is just not true. I'm a SAHM and find that view very offensive.


Don't take it out of context. Look at the whole paragraph, and the whole post. It was a refutation of the previous poster's assertion that the husband essentially "owed" the SAHM his career. It was to point out that the husband's work brought home economic benefit, which she enjoyed without having to go outside the home to obtain--essentially her "compensation". 

At no point do I say that the SAHMs efforts do not merit 1/2 the marital assets. I do, however, say that they do not merit ongoing compensation going forward, without having to expend additional effort.

For the situation of the orignal poster, the ex-wife is draining him without any further contribution on her part, nor any apparent effort to make herself self-supporting.


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## Wolfman1968

EnjoliWoman said:


> You can enforce visitation and should have all along. And when a sullen 17y/o boy comes you should remind him that he can thank you for his home, food, water he bathes with, soap he uses, clothes he wears and so forth and, yes, the law requires you to but you also WANTED to, but he seems to take that for granted. Now that he's working he knows what is required to bring in that money and he should show some appreciation for it. He needs a reality check. But he probably assume you don't give a rat's ass because you haven't made an effort to assert your parental rights for a year.


No, you are not correct. He can't enforce visitation. He already posted that the judge agreed with the older two children in their petition not to visit any more....said they were old enough to deicide for themselves.


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## EnjoliWoman

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, you are not correct. He can't enforce visitation. He already posted that the judge agreed with the older two children in their petition not to visit any more....said they were old enough to decide for themselves.


I had missed (or forgotten about that when I posted that. I agree - he can't drag them kicking and screaming, although thinking more about it, he could pull up outside telling him "let's go" and when he says where, say "This would normally my weekend to visit with you guys and I really want to see you. You don't have to come but I'm your Dad and I miss you and it would mean a lot to me if we could hang out today". No guarantees they'll go but it shows the kids he WANTS to spend time with them. 

Alienation is hard to defeat but constant assertion of rights (whether they cooperate or not) is important. It sends the message "I'm your father and spending time together is important and I deserve that". 

This judge of OPs stymies me. This is a horror story for the books. What judge thinks it's OK to tell kids they don't have to spend time with a parent who loves them and wants to spend time with them? (Sans abuse, obviously.)

I'm curious tho - what activities would visitation interfere with? Sports? I'd go as a spectator.

And now that the oldest is legally an adult, I'd copy the motions (or maybe summarize the dates, motions and outcomes) etc. and send them to him so he knows his Dad has tried to spend more time with them and all he gets is stonewalled; meanwhile Mom keeps trying to suck more money out of Dad and get by with whatever she can.


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## MaritimeGuy

I can see where parental alienation is such a difficult subject. Obviously it's tragic when it happens however I can imagine there are probably lot's of people "crying wolf" with it in a sense. 

It really upsets me when I hear of people trying to use children to hurt their ex's. Some people just really need to pull their heads out of their own asses. Kids are a treasure to be nurtured not a tool to inflict pain. Arrrghhh!


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## EnjoliWoman

MaritimeGuy said:


> I can see where parental alienation is such a difficult subject. Obviously it's tragic when it happens however I can imagine there are probably lot's of people "crying wolf" with it in a sense.
> 
> It really upsets me when I hear of people trying to use children to hurt their ex's. Some people just really need to pull their heads out of their own asses. Kids are a treasure to be nurtured not a tool to inflict pain. Arrrghhh!


Yes, crying wolf and no official diagnosis code previously hindered courts' recognition of it. BUT now we know a lot more. The two main factors that differ real alienation from one parent just 'bashing' the other in front of the kids:

1) the alienating parent has a personality disorder. Most parents without a PD do not hate their spouse more than they love their child. PDs will do whatever they have to when seeking revenge of the target parent, including using the kids.

2) the target parent has never done anything to alienate the children - i.e. no abuse, neglect, etc. has been found or reported by the child or anyone BESIDES the alienating parent (who usually does accuse the target of one of these).

OPs wife obviously has, even to a layperson as myself, a personality disorder which changes this from a generic, overly used "alienation" term, to the real thing.

If it is not severe, often they CAN be reasoned with and minimal damage is done to the child's relationship with the target parent. On the extreme end of PDs, a child's relationship is permanently damaged AND they grow up just as dysfunctional as the parent who dominates them.

Therefore the diagnosis code that is generated is based on:
1. Attachment system suppression (child suppresses normal attachements to target parent)
2. Personality disorder systems (the child displays symptoms of a PD because they "mimic" the PD parent - the PD parent "enmeshes" their personalities)
3. Delusional belief systems (implanted by PD parent they child now is deluded to believe the target parent is bad/evil/worthy of rebuff aka "brainwashed")

These three symptoms together represent the presence of pathogenic parenting which results in DSM-5 Diagnosis of:
309.4 Adjustment Disorder (with mixed disturbance of emotions and conduct)
V61.20 Parent-Child Relational Problem
V61.29 Child Affected by Parental Relationship Distress
V99.51 Child Psychological Abuse

(c) Dr. Craig Childress, Psy.D. The Office of Dr. Craig Childress

It MUST be properly diagnosed by a professional - every kid who says they hate Dad or Mom for cheating, divorcing, leaving, etc. is not necessarily being alienated. It is ALWAYS specifically tied to a parent with a personality disorder. This was a huge omission (and created quite a setback in being recognized) by Dr. Garrison back in the 60s. He 'found' it, and recognized PA but lost credibility by not including that very key component because his critics felt by acknowledging alienation it opened the door for REAL abusive parents who alienated their children by very real abusive actions, would put the legal motions in place to force kids to spend time with their abusers.


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## samyeagar

Just a minor update...as many of you know, I got married over the weekend. 

Late last night I got a text message from my oldest son saying Congrats. First contact in nearly a year.

Also, earlier in the day, I got a text from my youngest saying that he'd like to come spend this upcoming weekend with me if it was alright with me. I told him I'd have to check with his mother because that weekend is his mothers weekend. I told him that my wife and I were moving to a new house, and he'd get to pick his own bedroom, but he'd have to help move


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## murphy5

well that's positive news. 17...hey I could not get my 17 year olds to visit me...and they lived here in the same house!! Not surprised about that. Maybe plan some fun stuff, fishing, mini vacations to the beach, etc, so they have interesting stuff to DO with you. Maybe they would start looking forward to it, asking for it more.


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## renascent

EnjoliWoman said:


> It seems to me he prefers complaining about it vs. doing anything about it. No, in the US the person paying support never has to give up 75% of his income. There is a maximum support calculation but it's up to a certain percentage of the payer's income. He is focused on the 6K so let him.
> 
> He has given every reason why he can't instead of listening to the things he can do. And he doesn't even have the balls to press for a relationship with his kids. I think there is a lot of missing info here.


You are totally incorrect. Actually, 75% of a man's income is far from the worst possible case scenario. Many men in this great country of ours or ordered to pay more than 100% of their salaries for child support and/or alimony.

You are totally out of line as well for callously claiming that he "doesn't have the balls" to press for a relationship with the kids when he has explicitly and repeatedly stated otherwise.


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## tom67

renascent said:


> You are totally incorrect. Actually, 75% of a man's income is far from the worst possible case scenario. Many men in this great country of ours or ordered to pay more than 100% of their salaries for child support and/or alimony.
> 
> You are totally out of line as well for callously claiming that he "doesn't have the balls" to press for a relationship with the kids when he has explicitly and repeatedly stated otherwise.


Watch the movie divorcecorp online it gets to you, well at least me.


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## renascent

samyeagar said:


> Just a minor update...as many of you know, I got married over the weekend.
> 
> Late last night I got a text message from my oldest son saying Congrats. First contact in nearly a year.
> 
> Also, earlier in the day, I got a text from my youngest saying that he'd like to come spend this upcoming weekend with me if it was alright with me. I told him I'd have to check with his mother because that weekend is his mothers weekend. I told him that my wife and I were moving to a new house, and he'd get to pick his own bedroom, but he'd have to help move


That's awesome. I'll pray for the relationship of you and your children.


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