# A little lost.



## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Could do with some advice, things are getting a bit much. Well obviously I'm new here; been looking around and it seems like a friendly enough place and I really think I need to get this off my chest, if not seek advise. It's a pretty long story but I think to get the whole picture of the current situation it's needed so thank you in advance for taking the time over it.

Basically it started off when I was 17, when I first met her. I was working in my first 'real' job and basically taken advantage of. I ended up doing things that were illegal by my age, (Being far too young.) And put into unsocial hours, by the end I was working through out the evening and night and sleeping over the morning. 
During this time I lost track of friends and family and had no social life at all, so at the age of 17 I was a pretty depressed kid who had no contact with anyone outside work.

I started going online and met my now wife for the first time on chatrooms. She was literally only 11 days younger than me, we had some things in common, a lot of others not but we hit it off really well. She was in America, I'm in Scotland, other parts of the world yet that didn't seem to matter because we fell for one another over and over again every day.

Three months later I had given up on things over here and took all my money and credit cards, (Not a good idea.) I had just turned 18 and was now able to buy a plane ticket so I literally fled the country. 

I flew to America and we met in person for the first time, it was all a bit surreal looking back at it. Things were rough, there were a lot of concerns and issues with her parents amongst other things. Of course there was, I was some random guy from another country flying over to meet her, that sort of thing just doesn't happen right?

Well regardless, we fought through it all, our love was perfect, we were so happy together and nothing went wrong. I stayed for three months, as long as I literally could on a normal holiday visa, built up huge debt which I regret now but have managed to pay off.

However in the end, we were happy and promised ourselves to one another. I even gave her an 'engagement ring.' We were going to stay loyal to one another and live together, the whole thing, perfect little fantasy dream.
When I got back, most of my family were extremely upset, I hadn't been a good person to them quite frankly, I hadn't told them what was going on and they were extremely worried about me. Some of those relationships haven't really recovered to this day, almost six years later. 

Well from that time we both got to work, she finished her stuff, I started working and we were looking into visas. She had always loved the idea of Scotland anyway and hated it where she was so was more than happy to move here. 
Well through out this time, I've been to America again and she's been here several times. We've met up and lived with one another for several months each time and every time we are together, we are happy, everything is good. Sadly it's proven not that easy getting a visa and we're still apart and during those times apart it's difficult, very difficult.

At one point, I decided that I was never going to earn enough money to get the visa so went to university to study psychology. I was doing well but there was so much paranoia on her end, she just didn't trust me being at university in another country away from her. She always thought I was going to be out having an affair. On top of all of this, she had fallen pregnant with our first beautiful baby girl. I wanted to help and wanted us together and we had her on the way...In the end it was too much and I left university after my first year. Instead I had found the possibility of setting up a business with someone.

Sadly this never took off because of my previous financial problems and I had no way to get enough money for it. I continued looking for a job and again years past, I worked in an area and the longer things went on the harder it became. Trust was always our biggest issue, I was paranoid over her, she was paranoid over me. I'm sure the distance is one of the biggest problems and the fact that both of us have people around us saying we're crazy, or that they don't understand how we can do it and everything else. People are extremely negative, wondering how we can be together without the physical part for so long even though we have an extremely good physical relationship when we -are- together.

This isn't really the problem however, just kind of the basic back story. The real problems hit when I left one job, I was going to go into another but that fell through. I decided it was fine and I'd pick one up quickly. This happened around the the start of the economic downturn however and finding a job was pretty much impossible. 

I lost my house and was living in my car, I wasn't entitled to any benefits because I had left my job voluntarily for six months. I lost everything during that time, my family wouldn't take me in, friends from time to time but that can only go on so long and it put a huge strain on our relationship. 

We were struggling to keep in contact without the internet and well, a power supply for my phone. I had no money, she was struggling on her end with the baby and I am ashamed to say I shut down. Apparently my coping mechanism for dealing with all the loss and struggle was to completely shut down and cut off everyone else as well. That included my wife. We had gotten married the last time I had visited America, it was in a registry office, we always wanted another 'proper' wedding in Scotland so that is hopefully still to come... 

Anyway, we were both struggling and in the end I pushed her away. I said some horrible things, she had always stood by me, the only person in the world to do so and I literally had to be horrible just to force her away. I hate myself every day for what I did, I hurt her a lot in that time.

I broke down into depression, I wont go into detail over the problems but this lasted some few months. She found another guy, not a physical relationship again but emotional, he was more of a support aid looking back. They met online again, talked, were talking of meeting and had an emotional relationship which hurts to this day to think about but I can't really blame her, this was after I had forced her out of my life and completely my own fault. It hurts but I try not to think of it and I know I can't blame her...

Well eventually after going through all the depression and crap and quite frankly being utterly honest failing to commit suicide, something kicked in and I decided I wanted to fix my life. I started looking for a job again, for houses and I went to see a psychiatrist, who was a friend of a social worker that I know. 

I spent some time with him, met him a few times, not technically working meetings as he was actually retiring but for some advise for our mutual friend. Turns out he diagnosed me with severe Borderline Personality Disorder which stemmed manic depressive tendencies and a lot of paranoia. 

For those that don't know what BPD is; Borderline Personality Disorder | Psych Central 

He told me to get help of course, proper help with it as he really couldn't go much further with this factor. I found that my own reading and understanding of it helped me to be a bit more logical over it and the way my head sometimes works and that in itself did help, I still want to get help over it but there are issues, namely I can't afford it.

Now then, all of this started to get me somewhere, I felt better and I made contact with my wife, after a few days of uncertainty she told the person she was talking to that she really just didn't feel that way towards him and came back to me. She loved me really, I knew she did and I did her. We've been through a hell of a lot before even that time. 

She came to see me soon after, just a short visit but it was a great break, we had a good time and I was positive about how things were going to turn out. It still wasn't quite perfect, things had definitely changed and it's going to take some time for us to get back what we had but that spark, that passion and that love was still there, it was obvious.

Now the problem is that I never actually managed to get another job, nor a house and was still homeless and unemployed. Although I was better I still wasn't right and I haven't treated her perfectly, haven't given her everything I promised and haven't been the person I promised to be.

She has changed a lot as well and some parts of that change I'm not really happy with but I honestly feel that those changes are her trying to find some kind of connection with others and coping with the problems we are both having in life. 

Now I've finally got a good job which I enjoy, I've got a house, I'm much more stable and I'm ready to go on with my life. I thought this was what she was waiting for, looking for, we were still telling one another that we loved each other every day... 

But I told her that I wanted to talk about getting her and our daughter over to live here, it's been nearly six years and our daughter is 3 next month. I've barely even seen her and don't want to miss any more of her life. I want my family together but my wife shut off quite a lot.

She told it was because she couldn't trust me, that she didn't know if things have changed or not in reality or if it's just going to back to how it has in the past where I've pushed her away. She wants to do other things for herself so she's not relying on me, she's talking about going back to school and such. All of these things I'm totally fine with and understand but when I ask her if she still wants to be with me, loves me and is wanting to have that commitment with me, she just kind of runs away. Avoids the question and leaves me.

I feel entirely rejected over all of this and I'm struggling with it, I've barely slept over the last week and feel sick. I love my wife more than anything else, I know deep down that she loves me but now I'm scared that there's just been too much for her to deal with or worse that in this quiet time where we've not really talked much and just done the pleasantries that she's found someone else or has feelings for someone else and that she doesn't want to tell me that she's committing to me because of that reason. 

This of course could just as easily be my paranoia acting up again, she still denies that she's ever had anything close to an affair and I definitely have not, even though she still doesn't really believe me. She still thinks that I pushed her away for that reason, can't quite seem to understand that it was because of my situation and my stupid coping mechanism. I've tried talking to her and she says she needs time, she's been avoiding me a lot and that's what is eating me up right now. I can't sleep at all, I feel sick and it's largely this not knowing what is going to happen. Whether or not she still wants to be with me or not; I'm just freaking out right now. She's supposed to be getting on to talk to me soon and I'm hoping she's going to give me some answers or talk to me about this. I just don't know what else I can do to show her that things can be okay, or what else to say and I'm terrified of losing her...

So yeah, that's pretty much my rather lengthy story, sorry it was so long but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it, advice, anything. I'm sure a lot of it is probably just my crazy paranoia and what not but I can't actually differentiate between that and reality right now because I'm so scattered from feeling this way... Thanks anyway.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hello, Curious. Welcome to the TAM forum. As an initial matter, I must say that your post simply blows me away! You have no idea how rare it is to meet someone having BPD at the diagnostic level and able to acknowledge it and confront it. You have an amazingly level of self awareness -- so much so that I've never met a person like you in my private life. But I have communicated with nearly a hundred people like you over the past four years, primarily at forums targeted to BPDers. This does not mean that such folks are common but, rather, that the Internet gives them the ability to congregate in one spot.

As rare as it is to find a BPDer with your insight, it is even more unusual to find one who is male. Nearly all the self-aware BPDers I've communicated with online are female (despite the fact that a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found 6% of BOTH men and women have a lifetime incidence of BPD at the diagnostic level). Moreover, you appear to be very bright, articulate, and extremely insightful.


> Both of us have people around us saying we're crazy


No, neither of you is crazy because that requires a person to have a distorted perception of _physical_ reality. With you, the BPD (being a thought disorder) only distorts your perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations -- not physical reality.

As to your W, she most likely is "codependent" like I am, having low personal boundaries. If she had strong personal boundaries like a healthy individual, she would not have stuck by your side for six years. Typically, the healthier people walk out of a relationship with a BPDer within 18 months -- and usually much sooner. By "codependent," I mean that her desire to be needed far exceeds her desire to be loved. The result is that she is a caregiver to a fault, i.e., will keeping helping you even when it is to her great detriment to do so.


> I found that my own reading and understanding of it helped me to be a bit more logical over it and the way my head sometimes works and that in itself did help, I still want to get help over it but there are issues, namely I can't afford it.


It is very important that you find and stay in a treatment program for several years (at least) when you are able to afford it. Until then, I would encourage you to start communicating with those very rare, self-aware BPDers who gather at a few websites targeted to them. You can learn a lot from them. If you are interested in doing that, I will be glad to suggest a website and a person at that website to start with.

What you will be able to learn in treatment -- and to some extent from the treated BPDers -- is how to intellectually challenge your intense feelings (instead of accepting them as truth), how to self sooth yourself when upset or anxious, how to stop thinking of yourself as a victim, how to better regulate your emotions, and how to start trusting others (by learning to first trust yourself).


> He diagnosed me with severe Borderline Personality Disorder with stemmed manic depressive tendencies and a lot of paranoia.


Because my exW has BPD and my foster son is bipolar, I am familiar with both of those disorders. Although a substantial share of BPDers also suffer from bipolar, there are significant differences between the two disorders -- so you should be able to distinguish between them. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year.

In sharp contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. BPD rages, for example, typically last about 5 hours and rarely as long as 36 hours (if the BPD sufferer is inner-directed, you will not witness a raging screaming person but, instead, a quiet withdrawn person who turns her anger onto herself).

A second difference is that the onset is very different. Whereas a bipolar change may occur over several weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 15 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

A third difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. The difference is huge: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Finally, a fourth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are usually unable to trust for very long. This lack of trust is very destructive in their attempts to maintain LTRs.


> She still thinks that I pushed her away for that reason, can't quite seem to understand that it was because of my situation and my stupid coping mechanism.


BPDers have two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. The abandonment fear sometimes is so painful that a BPDer will push his partner away, preemptively abandoning her before she has a chance to do it to him. The primary reason for pushing the partner away, however, almost always is the engulfment fear. Because you have a weak and unstable sense of who you really are, you will feel like you are losing yourself into your W's strong personality -- as though you evaporating into thin air -- when you are very close and intimate with her. It also may feel like she is "controlling" you. To get breathing space, you likely will create an argument over nothing to push her away. If this has been happening with you, you will find that your worst arguments (i.e., push-aways) usually occur immediately after a great weekend together or very intimate evening.


> I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it, advice, anything.


My advice is that, to learn more about controlling your BPD traits, you should (a) start a dialog with the self-aware BPDers I mentioned above, (b) continue seeing the free psychiatrist if he is willing, and (c) explore the availability of group therapy that is provided at zero or low cost by the government in social programs (lots of that is available here in the States, if not in Scotland). Also, I would be glad to try to answers any questions you may have about BPD itself. Although I am not a professional and have no experience with the treatment programs, I have considerable experience with it from the perspective of a nonBPD partner who lived with a BPDer for 15 years. Moreover, your continued participation in this thread will give you an opportunity to hear from others who are knowledgeable about this painful disorder. Take care, Curious.


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you Uptown, I appreciate everything that you've said.

My biggest problem recently has been that I am aware of my issues and therefore I do sometimes challenge thoughts that I have. But then I end up questioning the challenge and starting to doubt that, to the point that I never really know which is the logical, intellectual side of my head and which is the emotion fueled side. 
To lay this in an example, I was feeling particularly paranoid about my Wife's weekend holiday. I told myself this was me being stupid and paranoid and that she wasn't doing anything wrong. After a short while I decided that the first instinct was logically right and that I was emotionally defending her for fear of losing her and this was my illusion to protect myself. This basically continued back and forth for some time and I simply became more and more confused, frustrated and ended up lashing out initially only to retreat and apologise again.

I really don't think she fully understands it and I am trying to sort it but it's certainly not easy right now and although being more aware of the situation helps in some fields, I also find that recently it's bringing me even more confusion for the reasons stated above. 

She's decided that she needs a bit of time, she told me last night that she still loved me but needed a bit of time. 
From the off set this seems fine, we've been in this place before and I've broken her trust by not living up to promises and I did kind of come over this step rather quickly from last week, after going through a bit of a 'cold period.' So I can understand that she might need time to grasp that change and why it happened so quickly. However that falls short to the paranoia that steps in soon after, she needs time because she's found someone else or has feelings for someone else. During this cold period she was just being present but in truth wanting and being ready to move on and me actually wanting to be with her again, like this has shocked her and made her run. She doesn't really want to be with me at all and was just about ready to up and leave and is now a little uncertain but in reality is only that way because of her own moral and ethical understandings and not because she still actually loves me.

Yeah you get the picture, I've been having a bit of a breakdown today to be honest, writing on here helped but I really need to talk to her and she's kind of avoiding me right now. I finally started to think that maybe she's gone to church with the family and the time difference would suit that but it's, I don't know, just seems to be a bit much as I can't contact her at all...

Anyway, I'm just a bit lost right now because I don't know where I stand. I'm confused on how she feels and what is going to happen and waiting for some answers is driving me insane. I'm probably over reacting, it's not even been a full day yet but it's just, there in my head. I'm sure I sound needy and everything else but the uncertainty of it all is what is catching me and I have tried being a bit more stand offish, holding back and 'playing it cool.' But I reach points where it's just not possible any more.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for her, hope she comes to talk to me soon. As for the forum I'd be interested in at least having a look. I know I need more support and help over this so that sounds like a good place to start. Thank you for your time again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I do sometimes challenge thoughts that I have. But then I end up questioning the challenge and starting to doubt that, to the point that I never really know which is the logical, intellectual side of my head and which is the emotion fueled side.


Curious, the two are easiest to distinguish between when there is a verifiable, observable fact on which the thought is based. Then you know you are in touch with the adult intellectual side. The problem, of course, is that human interactions with loved ones often must be based so much on perceptions of tone of voice and facial expressions -- an area in which one cannot find incontestable, observable facts. The issue then becomes whether your "adult" has correctly deduced her attitude or, rather, whether your intuitive "child" is simply over-reacting. Moreover, you can't go through life always assuming your W is right and you are wrong about your perceptions. That is no way to live and it would not be true anyway. So, yes, I see your quandary. 

We all have that same problem when experiencing intense emotions such as anger or infatuation. What the rest of us often do, when this occurs a thousand times in our adulthood, is to decide to say nothing until we have time to cool down -- because we know we cannot trust our feelings, particularly when they are intense. 

An untreated BPDer like you, however, usually lacks the emotional maturity to keep his mouth shut (and his fingers off the keys) until he has time to cool down. Instead, he feels like he is going to explode if the matter is not settled immediately. This occurs because, if you have very strong BPD traits, your emotional development is stunted and you don't have the more mature emotional defenses (e.g., self-soothing and self-distraction) to calm yourself down. 

But you can learn these defensive skills in a good treatment program such as CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). Until you do, you are stuck relying on the limited set of primitive emotional defenses that we all used 24/7 in childhood, e.g., projection, denial, magical thinking, and splitting (e.g., black-white thinking wherein everyone is either "all good" or "all bad."). 

Even as adults, we all keep exhibiting all nine BPD traits occasionally. They become a problem only when they are so severe as to interfere with our personal relationships. Black-white thinking, for example, is something we all do every time we are startled, as when we suddenly look up and see a truck bearing down on us. In that instance, our minds are only capable of black-white thinking (e.g., "jump left" or "jump right") because our survival depends on it. Moreover, splitting is something that we all do many times a day. 

Hence, with respect to those nine traits, BPDers and nonBPDers differ not in kind but, rather, in degree. I mention this so you realize that you have the same set of basic human emotions and feelings that we all have. Indeed, as I understand them, the nine BPD traits arise from the primitive emotional defenses that are essential to our survival in childhood -- and which continue to play an important role in adulthood.

Keep in mind that, because you are a _high-functioning_ BPDer, the disorder
probably has little effect on your ability to interact with business colleagues, casual friends, and complete strangers. Indeed, most BPDers (IME) interact extremely well with those folks. The reason is that none of them will trigger your fear of engulfment or your fear of abandonment. That is, there is no intimacy to engulf you and no close relationship to be abandoned. Hence, the only people who can trigger those two fears are those -- like your W and family members -- who draw close to you because they love you.


> As for the forum I'd be interested in at least having a look.


There are a few BPD forums targeted only to BPDers and, of course, only self-aware BPDers will be there. I suggest you start with BPDrecovery.com, which I've heard many favorable comments about from BPDers. To protect the members, most of the dozen separate message boards at that forum are viewable only after you register, which is free. But, so you can decide whether you like the site well enough to bother registering, there are several message boards viewable by the public. Perhaps the most interesting one is called "On the Border" and is in the "Healthy, Happy Living" section. If you decide to register, I suggest you paste your story (from above) in the message board you find most interesting (or in the "Welcome Wagon" board). Also, there are many helpful articles available in the "Tools" menu on the left side of every forum page. 

Curious, that forum is located at http://board.bpdrecovery.com/. I hope you find it helpful. And I hope you continue participating here at TAM, where I and other members will keep responding as long as you find our comments helpful. Toward that end, you likely will get the best response out of us when you have specific questions (about your relationship or about BPD) that we can address.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I have no where near the level of experience with BPD that Uptown does, but I thought it might help to point out that your confusion about your wife's motives, feelings, etc., is not that unusual--and what most people will do is, give things time. It is a pattern of a person's behavior that is truly revealing. Too many people want a definitive "answer" about their loved one RIGHT NOW. It takes faith and trust to wait and I'm gathering that is especially hard for someone with BPD. If you can learn to ride out your emotional storms and focus on the long term pattern, you will find your answers. This is easier said than done-a lot of people have trouble with it. But when behavior does not consistently reinforce words, then the pattern becomes obvious and we can make decisions. Because you have spent relatively little time together, you may not have a clear sense of her pattern--but reflect on how she behaved when you were together; sounds like that went pretty well and she may be learning about her own co-dependent behaviors and figuring out how to continue the relationship in a way that is healthy for all 3 of you. If you try to rush her, she will--rightfully--sense that you are not valuing her need to have time for this process. At the same time, if she cannot make a decision in a time frame that you can tolerate, then you are not well-matched. Part of a long term relationship is finding someone whose "recovery time" meshes well with your own "waiting time." Your waiting time is askew b/c of your BPD, but your awareness of it may help you improve your waiting time to a more realistic length. Good luck.


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you both for your replies, I really appreciate your view points.

What has been said has touched home a little actually in simple reflection of today. She told me yesterday she needed some time and a bit of space, I took that to mean today, primarily because I was freaking out about things, confused and uncertain. She meant tomorrow as she was out with her family and obviously needing that space from my 'interrogating' today. 

Well obviously I didn't exactly deal with that well and I guess was seeing things in a very black-white manner and in turn continued to push and basically spent several hours harassing her. 

Eventually she told me to stop, that it was just one day and I had to back off as I guess, I have been pretty hard on her case for the last week. (This all seems fine in reflection especially in the consideration that I've been acting extremely emotionally immature.)
In note she also said that she still loved me and just needed a bit of space to get her own head on straight. 

Of course I wasn't able to just stop at that point and continued to press on which in turn got my a (verbal) slap in the face. Telling me straight that I needed to drop it right now or she'd be done talking about it altogether. We would sort it tomorrow. 

Which I guess worked out in the end because I was finally able to potter around the house and sort a few things that I've been neglecting and I guess on top of that I feel a bit calmer now about things. 
Though this might also be because I'm holding onto the 'I love you's.' Which isn't always a great idea as the phrase is so often thrown around without much meaning...

Anyway, I'm trying to stay out my head and give it a break for tonight, I'm going to work on being calm tomorrow when we talk about it and not getting into the 'childish' emotional ranges and ruining everything.

I also thank you for the site, I'll be signing up. I think just the idea of having some others out there who understand the, what I generally call; 'stupidity in my head.' Will be a nice thing and good to see that others have managed to get passed a lot of the issues with support which I will be looking to try and get in some form soon.

And on a final thought note. No I have no issues with friends and work colleagues, generally I'm quite loved by most without too much effort on my part but as you say; I don't really have any emotional attachment to them so they don't drive out these feelings like my wife whom I love very much. Sadly there are only a few in my family that really talk to me any more but that's another issue for another place... 

Thank you all again. I appreciate the on going advice and support.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> Of course I wasn't able to just stop at that point and continued to press on


This is so wrong that I know you must be using "I wasn't able" as a figure of speech. Of course you were _able_ to stop. You simply _chose not to_. Granted, when your emotions are intense, they seem to reflect reality (which they don't) and the sense of urgency is very difficult to suppress. But you have the choice to keep quiet and wait until you have a chance to cool down, at which point your perception of her intentions will be much clearer. Indeed, every time you argue with her you have that choice and you choose to squander the opportunity by pressing onward with the questioning. 

You don't keep making the wrong choices because you are stupid but, rather, because it is so very difficult for a BPDer to suppress that urgency -- that searing pain of shamefulness -- without getting professional guidance. I've never heard of a BPDer learning to manage his emotions without such guidance. Indeed, even when BPDers do get such guidance, most of them are unsuccessful because they lack the self awareness and ego strength to stay in treatment long enough to make a difference.

This is why the _very first thing _I spoke about is your remarkable self awareness. Your having that gift means you are over the biggest hurdle blocking other BPDers from getting better. It means you stand an excellent chance of learning how to manage your emotions if you seek professional guidance and stay with it. If you cannot obtain such help there in Scotland, I am hopeful that you will seek it here in the States where your W lives. I therefore encourage you to raise this issue with the BPDers you meet at the BPDrecovery website.


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Sorry Uptown, I didn't mean literally, just that I wasn't thinking at the time, just reacting which is never really a good idea because well that sides always emotionally driven which we've already established doesn't work for me... 

I managed to finally get some sleep last night which helped a lot, I'm going to work now but I can already feel the frustration and fear of what she is going to say to me creeping back. We'll be talking after I get back from work. I just hope I can keep the 'brave face,' on through out the day that I'll need for work... Anyway, thanks again.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Curious,

Most women want stability, they don't want uncertainty! 

After they were torn down by uncertainty, they lose their trust for future possibility. Most people become negative than positive. 

You and your wife went through a lot, it is surprising that you rose above the difficult life. But you are a strong man, you didn't give up, you managed to achieve what you have today, it is very commendable. 

Be sure to get your life in order first, be sure to be stable first. Please don't let what you are worrying now sabotage what you have already achieved. Your own life is very important! 

I know you love your wife dearly, but people change as they grew up. They change a lot, their thinking changes a lot. Sometimes we have to face reality. Romance is beautiful, but real life is brutal. If things don't happen your way, view it life. If things happen the way you wish, view it your luck!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

And please remember, everybody's life has its ups and downs. Few people's life is smooth! 

When you are at the bottom, don't lose hope, don't give up! 

When you are at the top, please be cautious, please watch out, make sure you don't fall. If you fall, you might hurt yourself pretty badly. 

You are still in your early 20's, there is a lot to learn in life! A lot of people don't learn this subject, they walk blindly, they fall very often, they hurt themselves constantly. 

There are many books about life, especially ZEN, it is not about a religion, it is about wise living, please do a search about it. You might find it very enlightening!


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you for your reply, Greenpearl, I appreciate it. 

I'm trying not to let things ruin what I've worked far but it's not really easy to separate myself from my feelings and right now emotions are all over the place... 

We're currently talking but she's very distant, just doesn't really seem to be there, like not interested? She doesn't want to talk about being together right now or the situation we're in, just avoiding the conversation completely.

I don't know whether this is because she needs more time or I'm being too pushy over the subject, it's all just very confusing. I just wish I could have an answer one way or the other, the uncertainty is draining me. Thanks again for your thoughts though...


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Just a quick update, thank you everyone again.

I stopped pressing, took a few moments to myself, calmed down and thought about some of the things I've been looking into recently and the conversation here. 
I found I was once again viewing things in a very black and white manner which was causing me to drive and push her, in turn she essentially ran away from my pressing and I became more frustrated.

The cycle continued. So when I returned I talked to her calmly, though internally I was going a bit mad and explained my position and also began to understand the grey area that she was in a little.

I now realise that it's not simply that she either wants to be with me or not. Which is what I had gotten into my head and was pressing over. But that she wants to be with me but currently is uncertain or insecure over taking that step again and putting the trust in me because of our previous issues.

I realise this is perfectly rational and acceptable and we talked a little more, in a calm manner. My emotions quelled somewhat and she told me she loved me once more and she would make more effort again.

I feel a lot more in control now and much better over things. I know if I continue to work on my issues and keep considering the emotional responses I have that I can get them under control, especially with the support I've been seeking. With that I'll be able to give her the security and trust that she needs and I believe we can finally progress with our lives together again.

At least that's the hope, wish me luck?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Thanks for the update, Curious. I wish you both the best of luck!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Mintiya,

A very thoughtful and helpful post. 

It is not only good for Curious, but also good for a lot of us.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Curious,

Life is what we make it! 

My husband always says that we make our own luck! 

We all live with a lot of weaknesses! A lot of people are struggling with insecurity, fear, worry, and paranoia. But strong people overcome them and achieve peace, we don't want to let these weaknesses defeat us. 

You are a strong man! I am happy for the calmness you feel now. I want you to achieve more in the future!


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you for your on going support and words.

I'm trying to put in practice what has been said, to not let myself get worked up and to understand my emotions. I'm trying to arrange an appointment with my GP on Friday and hopefully I'll be able to sort out some kind of therapy through the NHS.

I feel I've done okay today, I kept wanting to email my wife, message her, try and get in contact but I kept it to one short email this morning just wishing her a good morning and hoping she had a good night and that I'd talk to her later; which I'm just about to do.

Again she's not quite all there yet, I think she still needs more time, distance and to see that I'm not going to fly off the handle at a moments notice. It is somewhat driving me insane to sit here and keep back but so far I'm managing relatively well. 

I'm going to keep working on my issues with BPD and hopefully I can get a therapist of some sort to help. My stomach is still churning right now but I do still feel better for it. 

I am also aware that I need to do this for myself as well, not just my wife; though I'd rather not think about the reasons for that at present. I'll keep going for now and hopefully I'll manage to get a good stable routine going. 

Thanks again everyone.


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## CuriousQualities (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you so much for all the information and support, Mintiya. You've really gone out of your way for me on this and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. 

I will definitely be looking over the resources you gave me and I might just try and come up with some kind of list tonight as well. I've been looking into the idea of creating peaceful space; having a calming environment in the home. Minimalism seems to work for me, I guess it could be down to the opposite side of the chaos that often resides within. I've tried to rebuild and design my home on this concept and it seems to help sometimes but it does have its limits so the tools you have provided could be a great new step.

Thank you again, I really do appreciate it.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Curious,

Isn't it wonderful that Mintiya signed up to give you support.  And what she says is really helpful! 

After I read her last paragraph, I spotted something she is doing and I am doing too! 

Studying Buddhism! It is a great way to help us achieve peace! 

You are doing great! 

A relationship between a married couple is a complicated thing. You give too much, they say you are too clingy, you are suffocating. You give little, then they say you are not affectionate and caring. 

I use this as an example, when you look after a plant, if you water it too much, it dies; if you seldom water it, it dies or doesn't grow beautifully. So you don't water it too much, but you have to water it constantly! 

Find the balance is what we all need in our life!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> Find the balance is what we all need in our life!


Greenpearl, BPDers as a group are smarter -- and in many respects stronger -- than the rest of us. Curious therefore likely was looking for "balance" at a much younger age than you and I even started thinking about it. His predicament is that this pernicious disorder burdens him with two great fears -- engulfment and abandonment -- that are at opposite ends of the same spectrum. Hence, as he draws away from loved ones to reduce his engulfment fear, he unavoidably exacerbates his abandonment fear. Significantly, balance _cannot be achieved_ because, until he learns to manage his BPD traits, there is no safe middle ground between those two extremes.

With my exW, I spent 15 years looking for that safe Goldilocks position -- the "balance" as you say -- between "too close" and "too far away." I tried to back off far enough to avoid engulfing her but not so far as to trigger her fear of abandonment. After trying that (to no avail) for 15 years, I can confidently say that there is no Goldilocks position. There is no middle ground. There is NO BALANCE achievable until the BPDer first learns how to regulate his emotions, challenge his feelings, and do self soothing. 

Because that task is so complicated after having been burdened for 20 years with a thought disorder, it is highly unlikely Curious will get very far on his own. This, then, is why Mintiya and I are urging him to seek professional help. Although he is blessed with the rare gift of self awareness, he still needs professional guidance to succeed in his endeavor.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Greenpearl, BPDers as a group are smarter -- and in many respects stronger -- than the rest of us. Curious therefore likely was looking for "balance" at a much younger age than you and I even started thinking about it. His predicament is that this pernicious disorder burdens him with two great fears -- engulfment and abandonment -- that are at opposite ends of the same spectrum. Hence, as he draws away from loved ones to reduce his engulfment fear, he unavoidably exacerbates his abandonment fear. Significantly, balance _cannot be achieved_ because, until he learns to manage his BPD traits, there is no safe middle ground between those two extremes.
> 
> With my exW, I spent 15 years looking for that safe Goldilocks position -- the "balance" as you say -- between "too close" and "too far away." I tried to back off far enough to avoid engulfing her but not so far as to trigger her fear of abandonment. After trying that (to no avail) for 15 years, I can confidently say that there is no Goldilocks position. There is no middle ground. There is NO BALANCE achievable until the BPDer first learns how to regulate his emotions, challenge his feelings, and do self soothing.
> 
> Because that task is so complicated after having been burdened for 20 years with a thought disorder, it is highly unlikely Curious will get very far on his own. This, then, is why Mintiya and I are urging him to seek professional help. Although he is blessed with the rare gift of self awareness, he still needs professional guidance to succeed in his endeavor.


Uptown, 

Thank you for the information! 

Yes, I totally agree that Curious should get professional help. It is very important for him to seek guidance and support! I don't want him to walk just by himself. 

He is young, and he is a pretty smart man, I want his life to be smoother. He has already had a very tough journey! 

In order for his life to become more peaceful, I strongly advice him to search wisdom from Buddhism too, I read a lot of their books, and the wisdom they teach has helped me tremendously! Peace, calm, joy, and balance!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Mintiya said:


> greenpearl, you're very sweet
> 
> If it weren't for DBT and how helpful it was in treatment, I would have never sought out to learn more Buddhism teachings.
> 
> CQ, you're quite welcome. Something to keep in mind about recovery work, is it's usually tough before it gets easier. We're going against our natural grain, the way we've been dealing with things. So if you feel more uncomfortable trying something that's good for you rather than the tried and true not so healthy, don't be surprised or throw your hands up in the air. You're meant to feel that way.


  

Yes, I agree! 

It takes a long time to learn a skill. 

When you first start learning it, it is all new, it is intimidating, you get discouraged a lot. You doubt the possibility that you have the ability to achieve the level you want to reach. A lot of people give up after a few tries. But if we know this skill is very important for us, if we don't learn it, our life suffers, then we force ourselves to learn it and we tell ourselves that we can only succeed. 

Same thing with trying to learn to control our emotion. 

I had to learn to deal with a lot of my personality problems, anger, dwelling on past pain, get offended easily, insecurity! I had to learn to overcome these one by one. And at the beginning, you don't see any improvement, you hate yourself for making the same mistake again. But after a few month, a few years, you start to notice that you have become a person which is totally new.


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