# Conflict over Naming our Child



## phuschnickens (Jun 29, 2011)

My wife (or wife to be... in 5 weeks) and I are about to have our first child in December. My name is Paul Jr. In my family it is extremely meaningful to name a child after one another. Most people in my 40 person extended family are named after someone else either living or not whether after a first name after a father, middle name after an aunt, or some version of a grandmother's name mutated to be a male first name. It's very meaningful to me to carry this tradition. I've always planned to name a son Paul III.

My wife is Jewish. In the Jewish religion it is important not to name a child after a living person. Her mother holds tight to their Jewish culture in many ways, but my wife a little less so. Also my wife does not attend synagogue though she did as a child. She does not pray, she doesn't have a torah in the house or any other Jewish religion artifact. She was raised going to synagogue a little bit and she was active at her temple in her late teen years.

I went to church growing up almost every Sunday. In my teen years I was very active at church. Since then I have adjusted my spirituality and no longer really connect spiritually through Christianity or church. I consider myself Christian by culture but not Christian by religion. I believe the same can be said about my wife.

Both of us do many things that violate the religion we were raised in without even thinking about it... because we no longer really identify with it that much.

You probably guessed about 3 paragraphs where this was going... I feel strongly about naming a child Paul Jr. She feels strongly that it is wrong to name after a living person. We both believe that our reason for doing or not doing is more important than the other's.

I think that NOT doing something because of something you no longer truly identify with is MUCH different than DOING something because of something you do actively identify with (my family). I believe she needs to give in... but of course I am biased by definition.

3rd party opinions?


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Is the unborn child male? If the child is male you could name him Paul as a first name. Then, select a completely different middle name. I really dislike seeing a bunch of Roman numerals after a name, so we went a different direction. Our son was given his father's first name then a completely "new" middle name. And we used a version of his middle name as his nick name.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

i know this will not help you at all now, but i feel this is something you should have discussed prior to having a child, or i should say trying to conceive a child,


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Since your wife is not frum (traditionally strictly Orthodox observant), there's a somewhat broader latitude for the halacha (law) in play. For instance, with strictly frum you're not supposed to name a child after a relative who's Mechalel Shabbos (not shomer shabbos or frum Sabbath observant). By the way you know your baby will be a boy? Guessing, hoping or will you use a female name variant?

Below that, there are really customs (minhag) not halacha. Customs can vary; so that one custom could be the father picks the name of the first child and in other customs it's the mother. But the custom is A person gets to choose. If the couple can't agree they can toss it over the wall to rabbi to name the child.

And keep in mind that when/if you give your son a Brit Millah or your daughter a B'nai Millah (American custom) that the boy or girl will be given a Hebrew name different from their birth name anyway, so technically, that's the only name that really matter as far as the custom or halachic stricture is concerned.

And in case that wasn't complicated enough, the first born boy has a second ceremony at 30 days called Pidyon 'Ben which can rarely use a third or ceremonial name. This is unsual in the west unless one or both parents are Maghrebi or Mizrahi (from North Africa or Persia).

In case you haven't thrown up your hands in frustration yet, only applies as a custom for the most part, for Azkenazim (Northern and Eastern European, Ukrainian, Russian Jews). Whereas Syrian, Samarian, Sephardi (Spanish, Portuguese, Brazilian, Greek, Sicilian, Cypriot, Cretan, some Turkish and all Ladino......DO permit naming babies after living relatives. 

Hey you thought several thousand years of history was going to be simple?


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## phuschnickens (Jun 29, 2011)

As for lonelyman... not only is it no longer relevant, but she was also on birth control when she got pregnant. We weren't trying. We would have both chosen the traditional route... get married first (I'm calling her my wife but the wedding isn't actually until the first week of August). But I do appreciate the suggestion.

And as for runslikedog... I appreciate the very detail information but unfortunately I feel like this is less about the details of the history of Jewish culture as it relates to child naming as, for the most part, we are not following Jewish traditions.

827August... that's the type of conflict resolution I could live with, I think it's reasonable. We've talked about naming the kid Paul III and referring to him as tre or tres (say like tray) as a play off of "the third". She actually came up with that and I'm not opposed though wouldn't be my first choice. And, if we only have girls (we only plan on having two kids), I have no desire to do a warped name after thing though I would definitely want to name after a woman in the family even if just a middle name.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My point is, there's no firm standard your wife is holding to other than her vague generally misplaced sense that it should be such and such a way. Your custom and her custom don't trump one another. So... you have to find some middle ground because neither of you are entirely in the right and have nothing but a desire upon which to base their decision.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Just an opinion, as you requested, but when it comes to names, it can be important to think about this a little differently.

I see your point about the Jewish faith. That said, think about it this way. If she grew up avoiding some common foods, beyond the belief, she had to start thinking of some of them negatively. For example, pork can just seem disgusting because she thinks about the high fat content in addition to the religious implications to the point that this is ingrained. And this negativity doesn't just go away when you don't go to synagogue.

So, naming a child after a living relative is an ingrained negative. For years, when she says the name, there will be some shred of this in her mind. Her family will know, and ultimately, the child will know.

For you, naming him Paul is a positive. You probably don't have alot of negatives other than nerdy names like Marvin or something equally geeky. And it is highly likely that she would never want to push a name choice that registered as a negative to you.

Sound like convoluted logic? I'm just suggesting that a basic rule should be to avoid names that carry negative connotations for either of you, regardless of the name. That was the number one rule between my wife and I. Having a child should be positive for both of you.

Maybe Paul becomes a middle name?


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Your soon to be wife (and probably many here) won't like my answer but I'm old fashioned. I believe the father's rights should be respected. 

I also agree with Runs. I think it is easier for her to bend her rule that it is for you. First born sons are very important to most men.

On a side note I hate naming a kid after the father unless it is agreed to call him something else like maybe by his middle name. I have a friend who is Micheal and his son is Micheal too. The son is known as "little" Michael even though he is not so little anymore. It's so confusing. Big Mike, Little Mike when does it end? Crazy.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> Your soon to be wife (and probably many here) won't like my answer but I'm old fashioned. I believe the father's rights should be respected.
> 
> I also agree with Runs. I think it is easier for her to bend her rule that it is for you. First born sons are very important to most men.
> 
> On a side note I hate naming a kid after the father unless it is agreed to call him something else like maybe by his middle name. I have a friend who is Micheal and his son is Micheal too. The son is known as "little" Michael even though he is not so little anymore. It's so confusing. Big Mike, Little Mike when does it end? Crazy.


Yep, plenty of cultural prescedent, but I'm glad my mother rebelled. Else, I would be named Edgar, since my older brother got my father's first choice. Missed it by that much!


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## phuschnickens (Jun 29, 2011)

halien... very good point... negative connotation. I can actually sympathize with that. I wouldn't ever want her to think negatively every time she says the name... 

However I think underneath it I'm super skeptical about how important this is to her. My take on it is this. When she has an opinion and I have an opinion and they don't match I often think "there are other opinions i have on other subjects that matter more to me than this opinion on this subject"... those are the times I just relinquish my choice because I know it's part of having a healthy relationship. My opinion does not always win. This is an important one to me. 

I question how and why this would be so important to her. Like, hypothetically, if we are each allowed to flex only 10 strong opinions a year... would this actually make it on her list of 10. My problem is that I suspect not but this WOULD make it on my list of 10.


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## phuschnickens (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh and one other thing.. She rents a house from her mom (her mom doesn't live in it)... even though we've been staying in my house which I own. Her house is a 3 bedroom.. Mine a 2. Her house is 4 blocks from detroit, no garage, no basement, no attic, single wide drive. Mine is a 2 bedroom, 2 car garage, basement... I adamantly want to stay in my house, she says we need the extra bedroom her (mom's) house provides. I say we can get by and we both plan on buying a new, bigger house which fits both of our needs within the next 12 months anyway.

It was a multiple day heated disagreement. I eventually gave in 100% despite my many reasons. That was about 4 weeks ago. Now this has come up.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

phuschnickens said:


> I eventually gave in 100% despite my many reasons.


well she has you now, hook, line, and sinker, she is just reeling you in


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## Waiting4RightTyme (May 12, 2011)

I think a compromise is in order. Try here for ideas on baby names:
Create Your Own Baby Name


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Entropy ... name them Entropy


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

phuschnickens said:


> This is an important one to me.
> 
> I question how and why this would be so important to her. Like, hypothetically, if we are each allowed to flex only 10 strong opinions a year... would this actually make it on her list of 10. My problem is that I suspect not but this WOULD make it on my list of 10.


We have two boys. And my husbands family was the same way about passing on names and whatnot. My family is not. For a very good reason. I know you want to believe that it isn't a top 10 issue for her, but this is her child as well and his/her name is just that, hers and your childs name. Its usually desperately important to both parents. I can't give you any advice ( my kids were not named after my H's family either after months of discussion) but I can tell you that trying to downplay the importance of her side of it isn't going to get you the golden ticket LOL.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

FWIW my birth cert is blank; no name. I don't know if they weren't optimistic or just too bored to give a ****. I was 2 before I was given a legal name.


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## cherrypie18 (Feb 21, 2010)

Oh no. I've been through this and it's not fun! 

When I got pregnant, ex and his parents decided (without even asking me) that if the baby was a boy we would name him after ex's dad. This used to be a custom in our culture but most young couples don't comply anymore or simply use the grandpa's name as a middle name...and everyone's happy. It might work for you too...give the baby a first name that you *both* agree on, and give him the middle name _you _want. It's kind of a compromise, don't you think?

It's what me and ex decided to do but of course in my case ex MIL freaked out and said nobody would call him by grandpa's name and she brainwashed ex back to her ways. 

FORTUNATELY I had a girl


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## cherrypie18 (Feb 21, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Your soon to be wife (and probably many here) won't like my answer but I'm old fashioned. I believe the father's rights should be respected.
> 
> I also agree with Runs. I think it is easier for her to bend her rule that it is for you. First born sons are very important to most men.
> 
> On a side note I hate naming a kid after the father unless it is agreed to call him something else like maybe by his middle name. I have a friend who is Micheal and his son is Micheal too. The son is known as "little" Michael even though he is not so little anymore. It's so confusing. Big Mike, Little Mike when does it end? Crazy.


First born sons may be important for most men but when the name is unpleasant (like my ex FIL's name)... or the mere fact that the name would always, every hour of every day remind me of my unpleasant ex FIL I was very against naming my baby after him. 

Unless there are issues regarding in laws or liking the name, people should take the tradition a bit more lightly...

Most of the women I know didn't want grandpa's name because it was either too old fashioned or too geeky, but they would obviously not say that to their husbands and found other ways to compromise.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Could you compromise? My friend married a guy named William. He is actually William IV and my friend never really like that tradition. As a compromise they named their son Liam. It is the last 4 letters of William and it is a cool sounding name. Your name is Paul. What about Paulson, Paulsen or Paulos? Great sounding names actually!


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