# Hoping I'm just being paranoid



## CalBanker

I'm struggling with my gut these days thinking that something may be going on with my wife and a possible EA. I found one time that she was sending messages to an old college male friend that to me was inappropriate. I confronted her at the time and asked that it stop. She said that it would and said that it was nothing. Now going forward I notice that she never has her facebook up and I don't know the password. Also, we got new cell phones with the capability to sync or personal emails to our phones, which is great. So I got mine up right away, but she doesn't do it. I asked her why and she said that she can't get it to work. So I asked to help her but she wouldn't give me her yahoo account password and just fought me that it doesn't work and that she doesn't even use her personal email at all. So I started to get a little paranoid and looked at her internet history and found that she is using her yahoo email quite a bit and seeing that their are messages read and messages sent. That is all that I know, I have no idea how to get into her yahoo, but I feel that something just isn't right in my gut. I am also going to be out of town for several days starting in November and taking the kids with me. I've asked her several times what she is going to do, but she just keeps saying, oh nothing. But I have a feeling that she might have something planned. Am I just being paranoid?


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## mahike

Gut feelings most of the time are right on. You need to take some steps if you really feel like something is going on. Get a couple of Var's one for her car and one for the bedroom. Put a keylogger program on your home computer and a GPS for her car.

Have you checked her phone bill, phone numbers you do not know? Has your sex life changed? Picked up or stopped, any new clothes purchases.

One big red flag is the phone, takes it everywhere, password locked, does not let it out of her sight. Check text message volumes as well. Sorry you are here. Most of us found out through snooping as well. I hope you are wrong.


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## bryanp

There is an old saying that you should trust your gut. If the roles were reversed don't you think your wife would be suspicious also?


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## badmemory

You are not being paranoid. You are simply noticing a few red flags that may very well indicate infidelity.

So basically, you have a couple of options. You can act as if everything is alright and then go into full stealth surveillance mode. There are a lot of methods at your disposal and you'll get plenty of help here with that. The advantage to this approach is, if she is cheating, she'll be less likely to take things underground if she thinks her conversations are password protected. But even so, if you don't find anything after a few weeks, (though I think you will), you need to *INSIST* that she shares all her passwords. There should be no secrets in a marriage and you can not accept this in the long run.

The other option is to *demand* her passwords now, but continue to monitor her. Though this may lead to her being more careful, it might preemptively prevent a possible EA from becoming a PA.

If it were me, I'd choose the first option. Hang on for the monitoring advice and keep posting.


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## bartendersfriend

CalBanker said:


> So I started to get a little paranoid and looked at her internet history and found that she is using her yahoo email quite a bit and seeing that their are messages read and messages sent.


That is how I eventually found about my wife's EA turned PA was from learning of a new email address. I should have known prior to that, because she had another web email address that she would constantly check. But, all her important family/friends communicated with her through facebook or roadrunner email. I would definitely trust your gut and do your best to figure out who she could possibly be emailing through Yahoo.


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## CalBanker

She knows that I have the capability to look at her text volumes and phone calls, and I know there is nothing going on there. We don't use a home computer, so all the internet activity is on her cell phone. She does not have the whole cell phone password protected, but she won't let her personal email sync to her phone. And also won't leave facebook up on her phone. So she is always taking additional time to log into both sites. Is there a way to get the yahoo password?


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## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> I'm struggling with my gut these days thinking that something may be going on with my wife and a possible EA. I found one time that she was sending messages to an old college male friend that to me was inappropriate. I confronted her at the time and asked that it stop. She said that it would and said that it was nothing. Now going forward I notice that she never has her facebook up and I don't know the password. Also, we got new cell phones with the capability to sync or personal emails to our phones, which is great. So I got mine up right away, but she doesn't do it. I asked her why and she said that she can't get it to work. So I asked to help her but she wouldn't give me her yahoo account password and just fought me that it doesn't work and that she doesn't even use her personal email at all. So I started to get a little paranoid and looked at her internet history and found that she is using her yahoo email quite a bit and seeing that their are messages read and messages sent. That is all that I know, I have no idea how to get into her yahoo, but I feel that something just isn't right in my gut. I am also going to be out of town for several days starting in November and taking the kids with me. I've asked her several times what she is going to do, but she just keeps saying, oh nothing. But I have a feeling that she might have something planned. Am I just being paranoid?


No you are not just being paranoid. There is something worth looking further.

Exactly what did you find inappropriate. It matters.
But also realize that EAs are emotional, that sometimes turn romantic and then sexual. So what that means is that the conversations can be very innocent looking but it could be draining your marriage none the less. It becomes excessive. Anyway, you have reason for some concern.

In addition I suggest you do His Heeds Her Needs together and set some boundaries.


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## CalBanker

What I found inappropriate was that she was off facebook for some time. Couldn't get it at work and then we were having troubles with our home computer, so no facebook time. Within the message that was sent she told the male friend that she was gone for some time and just wanted to say hi. Well, his response was that he just thought she was gone because she may have gotten busted. And then he said he would LOVE to keep chatting.


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## CalBanker

The part that I am struggling with is that we haven't been in a better place in my mind lately. Loving, passionately kissing a lot lately, bedroom activity okay.


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## bartendersfriend

CalBanker said:


> Is there a way to get the yahoo password?


There is often times a way to reset the password with information you would likely know (as her husband). However, you can't really hide that... unless you want to try to blame it on her phone trying to log in ("mine did that too, I had to change the password to get it working again").

The only other option is to try to see what her password starts with and then try to type the first letter or two into her phone. You may get lucky and her autocomplete saved a string that looks like a password.


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## CalBanker

bartendersfriend said:


> There is often times a way to reset the password with information you would likely know (as her husband). However, you can't really hide that... unless you want to try to blame it on her phone trying to log in ("mine did that too, I had to change the password to get it working again").
> 
> The only other option is to try to see what her password starts with and then try to type the first letter or two into her phone. You may get lucky and her autocomplete saved a string that looks like a password.


I'm sure I would know the information, but then I feel that she would figure out that I am snooping.


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## bartendersfriend

CalBanker said:


> And then he said he would LOVE to keep chatting.


From experience, I highly recommend you look into this now. There is no reason a spouse should be secretly chatting with someone of the opposite sex.

In my case, it was a friend, so I did not even suspect. I wish I had.


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## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> I'm sure I would know the information, but then I feel that she would figure out that I am snooping.


True. So what? Right now, she knows for sure why she's locked her own husband out of her personal email account.

A spouse with nothing to hide has no need for secrecy.


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## CalBanker

Yes, but if she gets locked out, then she cleans up everything else. But I suppose, if I get the information I need, or find that it was nothing then everything is fine I guess. But if there is nothing, then I show that I am not trusting her and breaking into her email. Instead do I just request that she open it up for me? I do feel that she is throwing everything into the trash after each email, so she may already be covering her tracks, so I need to catch in the act I feel.


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## alte Dame

I suppose I am hopelessly old school, but I would address this directly. I would say that there is a difference between privacy and secrecy and that you believe she is actively, purposely hiding things from you. Tell her that she must open up her yahoo e-mail in front of you so that you can be sure that no boundaries have been crossed in your marriage. Be prepared to be called paranoid and controlling - tell her that marital experts say that her reaction is typical of a spouse who is trying to hide something that is corrosive to the marriage. Don't let the accusations put you on the defense.

If she refuses to share, then you can regroup to consider what your next move is. There are many options at that point, including VARs and a PI when you go on your trip, to a forensic investigator to try to get the records of her account, to an ultimatum that you back up. 

These are red flags. I would definitely not ignore them.


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## CASE_Sensitive

Definitely get the VAR and GPS for her car and a VAR for your bedroom while you're gone. Do you have the ex college guy's name and any other info? Any way to potentially identify his phone number and see if it shows on your records?


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## CalBanker

I don't want to drive her to another possible person, if their even is one. So I don't want to turn our marriage upside down, if their is nothing there. But if there is something there, I don't want it hidden and then she figures out how to be more covert.


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## CalBanker

I know his name, but don't have a number. But I've been able to identify all phone numbers in the records. There is no contact via phone or text on her cell phone.


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## bartendersfriend

CalBanker said:


> Yes, but if she gets locked out, then she cleans up everything else. But I suppose, if I get the information I need, or find that it was nothing then everything is fine I guess.


That is exactly the decision I made on DDay. I made the decision that I would get the password to her email and if I was wrong I would deal with it. As soon as I opened the email and saw all the messages were from one person... I knew my life had changed.

Also, if you go that route, I would suggest you check her sent items too. A lot of people forget to delete their messages there.


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## Hope1964

I hacked my husbands yahoo account by resetting the password for it, which came to the email that I DID know about and that I knew the password for. Once I changed the password I forwarded everything from it to myself. That was over 3 years ago, I have no idea if it still works that way or not. Plus he did know that I did it, but he knew better than to go and change it back. He was desperate to work things out and knew that if he'd changed it on me, he was up **** creek.

I think some kind of spyware/keylogger/whatever on her phone is your best bet, because I almost guarantee that there's more that you have NO clue about.

The fact the OM wondered if she got 'busted' really tells you all you need to know about your gut being spot on.


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## CalBanker

I'm just saying I don't want to jeopardize our trust and current relationship if I'm just being stupid and paranoid. I would like to find a way to get in there, see it and find out for myself without her knowing. Find that their is nothing and just move forward. If I find something, then I deal with it from there. I don't believe in divorce and I'd find a way to work through things if needed, but I don't want to hurt her trust of me, if there is nothing going on. I just don't want to be making something bigger than it needs to be if their is nothing at all.


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## CalBanker

Are their certain apps you can put on her phone without her knowing that would log things for me?


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## bartendersfriend

CalBanker said:


> I don't want to hurt her trust of me, if there is nothing going on.


Doesn't it seem like there are already trust issues? She will not use the Facebook app on her phone or sync her email, because she obviously does not want you having access. She either is doing something she should not (which is a reason for you to not trust her) or she does not trust you with access to her information. Phone secrecy is an indicator and you may have a chance to stop this early (and have a more honest/open marriage).


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## 6301

When you go out of town in November is there any way you can hire a PI to follow her? Might be the best money you have spent. Maybe set up a Nanny cam in your house. If you can't afford a PI see if a friend can watch and see if she where she goes.


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## CalBanker

I've thought about the PI, but money isn't exactly flowing and joint account that she has access to see. I've thought about cancelling my trip to see what her reaction might be too.


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## tom67

bartendersfriend said:


> Doesn't it seem like there are already trust issues? She will not use the Facebook app on her phone or sync her email, because she obviously does not want you having access. She either is doing something she should not (which is a reason for you to not trust her) or she does not trust you with access to her information. Phone secrecy is an indicator and you may have a chance to stop this early (and have a more honest/open marriage).


You should both have each others passwords.

No secrecy in a marriage and the fact she has a problem with this is serious imo.


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## F-102

CalBanker said:


> I don't want to drive her to another possible person, if their even is one. So I don't want to turn our marriage upside down, if their is nothing there. But if there is something there, I don't want it hidden and then she figures out how to be more covert.


Cal, you are not "driving" her. If she is cheating, SHE is the one who made the choice, SHE is the one choosing to lie to you, SHE is the one who chose to betray. No one "drove" her to do it.


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## F-102

CalBanker said:


> I'm just saying I don't want to jeopardize our trust and current relationship if I'm just being stupid and paranoid. I would like to find a way to get in there, see it and find out for myself without her knowing. Find that their is nothing and just move forward. If I find something, then I deal with it from there. I don't believe in divorce and I'd find a way to work through things if needed, but I don't want to hurt her trust of me, if there is nothing going on. I just don't want to be making something bigger than it needs to be if their is nothing at all.


This frame of mind that you are in is a classic tactic that cheaters use. They count on the BS to think this way.


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## tom67

CalBanker said:


> I've thought about the PI, but money isn't exactly flowing and joint account that she has access to see. I've thought about cancelling my trip to see what her reaction might be too.


Get some voice activated recorders today.

Amazon.com: voice activated recorder sony


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## tom67

F-102 said:


> Cal, you are not "driving" her. If she is cheating, SHE is the one who made the choice, SHE is the one choosing to lie to you, SHE is the one who chose to betray. No one "drove" her to do it.


Trust is a two way street.

You came here because your gut is telling you something is wrong.


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## anchorwatch

CalBanker said:


> Are their certain apps you can put on her phone without her knowing that would log things for me?


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67661-become-spy-catching-them-technology.html


Here are some...

Cell Phone Monitoring Software Review 2013 | Best Mobile Phone Tracker | Text Message Monitoring - TopTenREVIEWS


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## mahike

We all hope you are wrong but this is pretty classic cheater stuff, It may just be an EA at this point. The Var's, and the GPS would be very helpful and I hate to mention this but she could have a prepaid phone, we call them burner phones. 

I found going back through the records that my wife was emailing while I was a sleep at night, just before I busted her, she was emailing him while I was driving the car.


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## Tobyboy

iPhone? Grab her phone and press the home button twice.... Scroll to see what she's been viewing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CalBanker

Tobyboy said:


> iPhone? Grab her phone and press the home button twice.... Scroll to see what she's been viewing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Samsung Galaxy III


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## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> I'm just saying I don't want to jeopardize our trust and current relationship if I'm just being stupid and paranoid.


You know the reaction of a totally innocent spouse? They are loving and understanding and offer up total transparency. There's nothing to get upset about; the priority is allaying the fears of the person they love. You already know this isn't the reaction you'll get. Your wife has a track record and she's hiding things from you.



> I would like to find a way to get in there, see it and find out for myself without her knowing. Find that their is nothing and just move forward. If I find something, then I deal with it from there. I don't believe in divorce and I'd find a way to work through things if needed, but *I don't want to hurt her trust of me*, if there is nothing going on. I just don't want to be making something bigger than it needs to be if their is nothing at all.


You have this the wrong way round - _She's_ the untrustworthy one. 

I'm old school, like alte Dame. I would tackle this head on. Go up to her and tell her "You feel really silly for asking but hand over the phone and give me your yahoo password" (Feel free to embellish this). If she's innocent, if she has nothing to hide she'll hand it over in bewilderment. If not she'll have to explain why a wife should keep secrets from her husband.


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## Thorburn

I do believe your gut is right. My suggestion is not to confront anymore.

You need to get the passwords to her phone and yahoo. Duh, right. Well, you do. And you need hard evidence. Your wife is in denying mode and to break it you need proof. She is playing games with you.

I wish I knew how to hack a phone. Sometimes on a smooth surface people leave finger prints and some have hacked phones this way. If you look at a glass surface on an angle you can see the finger prints. If they are moving up and away that means they are going to another number. If there are four numbers and one of them have a firm fingerprint that typically is the last number.

Don't show your cards. Play it cool. 

If you know your wifes yahoo email you could go the forgot password way. I did. Unfortunately she stopped using these and I got nothing. In fact she set them up, threw the information in the trash, that is how I found out she had secret accounts, but did not use them. I guess she felt guilty. She just basically used her cell phone.

Who own the phone? her or you. Who owns the account? If you do then you will have more say in the matter.


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## Thorburn

CalBanker said:


> I don't want to drive her to another possible person, if their even is one. So I don't want to turn our marriage upside down, if their is nothing there. But if there is something there, I don't want it hidden and then she figures out how to be more covert.


You won't be driving her to anyone if there is no one. She might just get mad if there is nothing and she will get over it under the situation. I would and most would.

But I would wait to get evidence.


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## Thorburn

CalBanker said:


> Samsung Galaxy III


Several days ago, a flaw in the Samsung Galaxy S III interface was discovered allowing access to the phone's home screen even when a PIN or pattern lock screen was enabled. That hack, however, didn't seem as much of a threat given how little time one had to actually do something naughty with the targeted device. Yet now, another vulnerability that works in a similar fashion has been found and it pretty much bypasses the lock screen indefinitely. And that's a pretty serious privacy concern.




Here's how the hack works: from the lock screen press the "Emergency Call" button at the bottom. Then quickly press the emergency contacts button (bottom left), then the home button and then the lock key. If done properly, the next time the lock key is pressed it will take you to the Samsung Galaxy S III home screen. 




Note that this hack does not work every time. First time we tried bypassing our Galaxy S III lock screen it took us about 10 minutes of trying. But then we got the hang of it and managed to hack it within 10 attempts. Also, the one who discovered the vulnerability notes that having screen auto-rotation enabled increases the chances of the hack to work. Strangely, although the hack gives access to all apps and home screens, the notification bar remains inaccessible. This flaw appears to affect Samsung Galaxy S III units running Android 4.1.2. (UPDATE: Samsung Galaxy Note II is vulnerable as well.)




So all of you, guys, holding on to a Samsung Galaxy S III protected by a PIN or pattern, keep in mind that it isn't as secure as it should be. Hopefully, Samsung will address the issue in a timely manner


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## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> What I found inappropriate was that she was off facebook for some time. Couldn't get it at work and then we were having troubles with our home computer, so no facebook time. Within the message that was sent she told the male friend that she was gone for some time and just wanted to say hi. Well, his response was that he just thought she was gone because she may have gotten busted. And then he said he would LOVE to keep chatting.


Oooooooo. Well that has shades of gray certainly. BUT, I agree this is worth investigating further.

While this could be just something stupid he said, it is a red flag that warrants concern. 

Often folks in EAs feel that their relationship is just a deep friendship and "special". So they hide it. As their spouse would not understand. But the reason for hiding is that they know their spouse would not understand and they do not want to give their friend up. Been there myself on the EA side.

My point above os that EAs need to be caught early. When they are just inappropriate. This looks like is could already be shading over into unfaithful. Unfaithful is where they hide things from their spouse. Even if this did not go to a PA it does not mean that the marriage is not under serious attack and that the marriage could be being drained of its energy. She is investing in another person.

Now is this guy an EX BF? An EX lover? If so, for no other reason he needs to go forever.


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## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> The part that I am struggling with is that we haven't been in a better place in my mind lately. Loving, passionately kissing a lot lately, bedroom activity okay.


This could mean that she craves romance. You are there. So indeed you need to meet her needs but while this is good in one way it is a flag in another.
It is a change in behavior. So go with that flow. But do not stop investigating. Use this intimacy to do His Needs Her Needs. Like I said set some boundaries with the opposite sex together. You may be surprised you have different boundaries.


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## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> Yes, but if she gets locked out, then she cleans up everything else. But I suppose, if I get the information I need, or find that it was nothing then everything is fine I guess. But if there is nothing, then I show that I am not trusting her and breaking into her email. Instead do I just request that she open it up for me? I do feel that she is throwing everything into the trash after each email, so she may already be covering her tracks, so I need to catch in the act I feel.


You should not have blind trust.

marriage is about love and respect. trust is a by-product. Her locking you out of her email is her not trsuting you. Think of it that way. transparency is good. 

See we have to look out for each other as partners. We do not trust our partner to see all the risks and dangers because there is tunnel vision built in. My wife can see thingsin my relationships that my brain chemicals mask and vice versa. So think of marriage as a partnerhship wehre each of you are the wingman for the other. It is not about trust as much it is about loving, caring and nurturing the marriage. Part of this is protecting the marriage.

Those that push trust as a high priority want to act independently. Ok fine we are our own person. But we are also in a partnership. Boundaries should be determined together and not shot from the hip.


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## CalBanker

Entropy3000 said:


> Oooooooo. Well that has shades of gray certainly. BUT, I agree this is worth investigating further.
> 
> While this could be just something stupid he said, it is a red flag that warrants concern.
> 
> Often folks in EAs feel that their relationship is just a deep friendship and "special". So they hide it. As their spouse would not understand. But the reason for hiding is that they know their spouse would not understand and they do not want to give their friend up. Been there myself on the EA side.
> 
> My point above os that EAs need to be caught early. When they are just inappropriate. This looks like is could already be shading over into unfaithful. Unfaithful is where they hide things from their spouse. Even if this did not go to a PA it does not mean that the marriage is not under serious attack and that the marriage could be being drained of its energy. She is investing in another person.
> 
> Now is this guy an EX BF? An EX lover? If so, for no other reason he needs to go forever.


No, no EX involved with this OM. I guess they hung out in college at one point and my W has girlfriends that are friends with this OM also.


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## Entropy3000

alte Dame said:


> I suppose I am hopelessly old school, but I would address this directly. I would say that there is a difference between privacy and secrecy and that you believe she is actively, purposely hiding things from you. Tell her that she must open up her yahoo e-mail in front of you so that you can be sure that no boundaries have been crossed in your marriage. Be prepared to be called paranoid and controlling - tell her that marital experts say that her reaction is typical of a spouse who is trying to hide something that is corrosive to the marriage. Don't let the accusations put you on the defense.
> 
> If she refuses to share, then you can regroup to consider what your next move is. There are many options at that point, including VARs and a PI when you go on your trip, to a forensic investigator to try to get the records of her account, to an ultimatum that you back up.
> 
> These are red flags. I would definitely not ignore them.


This is how I am. I tend to be direct. Not sharing to me would be unfaithful and a smoking gun.


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## CalBanker

Entropy3000 said:


> This could mean that she craves romance. You are there. So indeed you need to meet her needs but while this is good in one way it is a flag in another.
> It is a change in behavior. So go with that flow. But do not stop investigating. Use this intimacy to do His Needs Her Needs. Like I said set some boundaries with the opposite sex together. You may be surprised you have different boundaries.


The part that I fear is that I want the romance to keep going, it really has been great that way. And I just feel that if I come out and ask for her yahoo password, in which I've never requested, that she will get mad and then shut off all the romance. And may even get mad with nothing going on, just question me for even wondering why she would be doing something. Putting me on the defensive. I am staying covert though, no more confrontations.


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## azteca1986

Fear is what's stopping you being direct.

Fear of being called 'controlling'.

Fear of acting when you get that gut feeling.

Fear of their spouse getting angry.

Fear of calling them out on their unacceptable secrecy.


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## CalBanker

azteca1986 said:


> Fear is what's stopping you being direct.


Yes, fear that my gut is right. And then fear that I'm being paranoided and shouldn't screw up a good thing.


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## BlueCalcite

CalBanker said:


> Yes, fear that my gut is right. And then fear that I'm being paranoided and shouldn't screw up a good thing.


If she has something to password-protect from you, then things aren't as good as you think they are.


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## TDSC60

CalBanker said:


> Yes, fear that my gut is right. And then fear that I'm being paranoided and shouldn't screw up a good thing.


Your gut is your logical mind trying to break through and tell you there is something weird going on. Your fear of paranoia is your misplaced love for her holding you back and keeping you in denial.

BTW - a secretive, deceptive wife is not a "good thing".


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## anchorwatch

CalBanker said:


> Yes, fear that my gut is right. And then fear that I'm being paranoided and shouldn't screw up a good thing.


Ask yourself, how good are things if you've gotten to this point?

How good are things, if she is insisting on keeping things from you?

How good are things, if she resist showing you something that would allay your fears?

Marriages are open and honest. There are no secrets.


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## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> Yes, fear that my gut is right.


If your gut feel is right, then take the phone and ask for her password. You have to be decisive. EA's can escalate in a frightening fashion. If you want to know fear, read a few threads on here and see where inaction can lead.



> And then fear that I'm being paranoided and shouldn't screw up a good thing.


If your gut is wrong, what's the worst that can happen? You are trying to protect your marriage. You want her co-operation. Not much to ask.



BlueCalcite said:


> If she has something to password-protect from you, then things aren't as good as you think they are.


I agree.


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## CalBanker

Ok, so tonight I think I'll just be start forward and ask her to give me the password to her yahoo account.


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## Hope1964

CalBanker said:


> Ok, so tonight I think I'll just be start forward and ask her to give me the password to her yahoo account.


If you do, DO NOT let her get away with stalling. If you let her stall, she will delete everything. Ask her for the password, and if she gives some excuse that will give her time to go and delete everything, you have your answer.

Take her phone first and THEN ask for the password. DO NOT give her phone back until she gives it to you, then log in immediately. DO NOT take no for an answer.

I still think spyware would be the way to go.


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## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> Ok, so tonight I think I'll just be start forward and ask her to give me the password to her yahoo account.


HOPE 1964 is right. Phone in your hand before you ask for the password. Read alte Dame's post again to have an idea of what she'll likely throw at you and the appropriate response. Also check her sent folder, people often forget to delete these.

Only do this if you know you can follow through. Good luck.


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## CASE_Sensitive

Yup, you need to figure out what you will say when she inevitably says no. Unless you have a clear course of action as to the consequences of her saying no, you will likely just end in a stalemate, give her time to delete and go underground (if it is an EA).

On the other hand, for the small chance she agrees right away, be prepared to handle her being angry in case she is innocent....or taking it further underground becuase the Yahoo email account was not the smoking gun you were looking for.


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## azteca1986

"You realise that refusing to give me the password is an admission of guilt? You are admitting you have something there that you do not want me to see."


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## CalBanker

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Yup, you need to figure out what you will say when she inevitably says no. Unless you have a clear course of action as to the consequences of her saying no, you will likely just end in a stalemate, give her time to delete and go underground (if it is an EA).
> 
> On the other hand, for the small chance she agrees right away, be prepared to handle her being angry in case she is innocent....or taking it further underground becuase the Yahoo email account was not the smoking gun you were looking for.


The stalemate, that is what I'm concerned about. I get the answer no, then what? 

I'm not going to kick her out or file immediately. So?


----------



## BlueCalcite

CalBanker said:


> The stalemate, that is what I'm concerned about. I get the answer no, then what?
> 
> I'm not going to kick her out or file immediately. So?


If you're not prepared to kick her out for refusing to let you see what she's protecting, then your best course of action is to play dumb and go the VAR and keylogger route. That gives you time to further convince yourself that something's wrong and plan what you want to do about it.


----------



## Pluto2

Tell her she is breaking trust with you and that you are not sure you will be able to trust her words again. Tell her you thought the marriage meant more to her than this, that you would gladly give her your phone and emails and have nothing to hide. Ask her why she must hide phone messages from her husband.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> The stalemate, that is what I'm concerned about. I get the answer no, then what?





alte Dame said:


> Be prepared to be called paranoid and controlling - tell her that marital experts say that her reaction is typical of a spouse who is trying to hide something that is corrosive to the marriage. Don't let the accusations put you on the defense.


If a simple 'no' is going to stymie you, don't take this route.


----------



## CalBanker

Can I ask, are most of the people responding to my questions been cheated on already? Is everything such doom and gloom? 

I can't verify things at this point, so a simple answer of no to giving out a password is not a reason to kick someone out or divorce. I'd feel like complete crap if I went that route and absolutely nothing was happening.


----------



## anchorwatch

CalBanker said:


> The stalemate, that is what I'm concerned about. I get the answer no, then what?
> 
> I'm not going to kick her out or file immediately. So?


That's your problem, you have no consequence for her continued deceit. 

She's playing chicken with you and she is wining. The only way this can work is if she knows you won't stand for another person or deceit in your marriage. The one who wins is the one who is willing to walk away! 

Ask yourself, are you willing to have another man in your marriage?

Get the spy ware on that phone!


----------



## CalBanker

I'm questioning, I have no proof. If I had proof, then she'd be out the door. But her saying no to a question about a password is not a reason to kick someone out the door. I have young kids and I would not take away their mother either. Seriously, things have been the best they have been for quite some time right now. Just have a gut feeling though.


----------



## BlueCalcite

CalBanker said:


> Can I ask, are most of the people responding to my questions been cheated on already? Is everything such doom and gloom?
> 
> I can't verify things at this point, so a simple answer of no to giving out a password is not a reason to kick someone out or divorce. I'd feel like complete crap if I went that route and absolutely nothing was happening.


It's not doom and gloom if she understands your concern and lets you see what you want to see, especially after you (presumably) offer to let her see all of your communications.

If she's not able to understand your concern, especially after you explain that there's no reason for any secrecy to exist in a marriage, then it may, indeed, be doom and gloom. If she insists that nothing is going on but that she has a right to privacy, can you keep yourself from worrying about it the rest of your life? Neither could most people, and that feeling is what a caring, trustworthy spouse wouldn't want you subjected to.


----------



## Twistedheart

F*ck her trust. She is using yours against you. Take up for yourself and find out what the heck she is doing because whatever it is, she does not want you to know. Red flags are everywhere here. Act now to nip it in the bud or keep "not wanting to betray her trust" and see how things work out down the road? I promise it won't be good.


----------



## CalBanker

BlueCalcite said:


> It's not doom and gloom if she understands your concern and lets you see what you want to see, especially after you (presumably) offer to let her see all of your communications.
> 
> If she's not able to understand your concern, especially after you explain that there's no reason for any secrecy to exist in a marriage, then it may, indeed, be doom and gloom. If she insists that nothing is going on but that she has a right to privacy, can you keep yourself from worrying about it the rest of your life? Neither could most people, and that feeling is what a caring, trustworthy spouse wouldn't want you subjected to.


Of course I will offer up my info. Actually she has all my passwords and emails. My phone is never locked or such....I give her true transparency. I guess I have just never asked for it from her. Never really concerned myself with it.


----------



## Twistedheart

Most of us have been there done that. This seems to me like early stages of EA and not yet PA. But you never know. The more ignoring you do, the worse it it's going to get.


----------



## bartendersfriend

I don't think anyone here is saying "kick her out" or "file for divorce". But, many of us have the benefit of hindsight. Many of us "trusted" our WS and now that we know what they were concealing we regret not putting a stop to it when we should have seen the red flags. Even if she is having an EA that does not automatically mean things have to be over. But, you also cannot have a marriage shrouded in fog.


----------



## anchorwatch

WHY WOULD SHE NOT GIVE YOU ACCESS??? 

WHY ARE SECRETS ALLOWED IN YOU MARRIAGE?

This type of secret would cause irreparable damage in my marriage. If my wife did this, we'd move to D with no problem. That is our boundary on this issue. She knows it and she expects it. As I do also, with her. 

I guess it's all what boundaries that are allowed in your marriage.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> I don't want to drive her to another possible person, if their even is one. So I don't want to turn our marriage upside down, if their is nothing there. But if there is something there, I don't want it hidden and then she figures out how to be more covert.


You need to run off poachers my friend. If you catch this early it is relatively easy.

When your brakes start squeaking you do not wait until your discs start getting ruined and then you fix your brakes and do not wait for them to fail.

The biggest hurdle is to get rid of your fear. Fear is your enemy. Never fear taking action in a postive way. Time is NOT on your side in this stuff. It is not a time to be NICE. It is time to be a loving, caring and engaged spouse. With an EA each day is more critical than the day before. There are brain chemicals at work. Being weak and fearing to act are your enemy. 

If you acting to protect your marriage pushes her away then she is already gone.

Think of it as she is about to fall into the abyss. Grabbing her is what you need to do to keep her from flling. Fearing to grab her because you might push her over the edge is not the right thing to do. You must act. How you act is important. 

To not fall for the jealous, insecure or controlling garbage. You are her hsuband. You have a right to be concerned over her relationship with a guy who may indeed be a past lover. 

A strong confident and caring man acts. A weak insecure and / or ambivalent man fears and does not act.

To many women a husband who accepts another man with his wife is showing he does not love her. It shows her her husband is weak. Which is unattractive.

The longer you wait the more difficult this becomes. You will never have a better time to act than today. Waiting is allowing the binding to go deeper and deeper. 

So where is this guy? You do know that people in EAs can travel vast distances and meet up in a matter of hours. That you could go on a trip and they could decide to meet. Not trying to alrm you but you need to prevent this.

BTW. My wife pulled me from the abyss by being firm. I did not realize I was in an EA until I went through withdrawal.


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## Thorburn

Cal - my wife cheated on me several times over a 30 year M. She finally came clean in April after I started the D process.

Don't confront her with what you have if you can't follow through with consequences. 

I am torn as to what to suggest. So I will lay out a few optioins.

1. Stay in stealth mode. Try to get the passwords. But don't tip her that you need them.

2. Confront. Take the phone, ask for her passwords, tell her that you need to check things. She will more than likely try one of several tactics. If it is "Sure, Honey, here is the passwords to my phone and emails", then check them. If she does this then you may have no cheating wife. I doubt that this will happen. The more likely scenerio is, "How dare you", "are you accusing ME of cheating", or a host of other things. Or, "I have a surprise for you and I can't show you right now", or, "Some of my GF's and I have been texting and you would not like it, we were just joking, let me erase those first". And too many of us have bought those arguments, why? Because we did not have hard proof. We were trying to get it. We become weak, we back down. 

I agree that the direct method may be the best one, but I have been burnt too many times. I am jaded. I would say that doing this may make her take it further underground if there is something going on.

Yes I could have stopped my wife's A in 2011 if I would have been more bold. I saw it unfold. I saw the guy on FB then he disappeared. Yet, whenever I check her computer if I clicked back his FB kept appearing, but he was no longer a friend. She kept looking him up. Big red flag and I had just gone through this with another guy a year prior. I was stupid. 

I caught my wife in 1999 by putting a key logger on our computer. 

You have aphone to deal with and I would say that I am leaning more towards stealth. Seek out a way to get to her accounts without her knowing it.

I know your hesitation. You don't have proof. 

Perhaps, you could say you were researching online about gut feelings and cheating spouses. That the sites told you to ask for her passwords and sit down together and log on to those sites. 

If she is hiding stuff she will find a way out if you let her. Or you go stealth and wait.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> I'm just saying I don't want to jeopardize our trust and current relationship if I'm just being stupid and paranoid. I would like to find a way to get in there, see it and find out for myself without her knowing. Find that their is nothing and just move forward. If I find something, then I deal with it from there. I don't believe in divorce and I'd find a way to work through things if needed, but I don't want to hurt her trust of me, if there is nothing going on. I just don't want to be making something bigger than it needs to be if their is nothing at all.


You are not being stupid or paranoid. 

Ok, hang on. You do not believe in divorce. 

So you have zero dealbreakers? IF she decides she wants this guy in her life you would be ok with it?

You need to decide now what your boundaries are. Before you see the evidence. Otherwise you will be like many and just tell her you know and you forgive her. Which is the worst thing you could ever do.

What is going on is NOT nothing at all. Again, you have to know what an EA is and looks like to see it. It will look innocent until it is not. Marriages are destroyed during the innocent exchanges. But if you plan on doing nothing no matter what you find then what are you hoping for? Just saying you do not want them with another person will not do anything. You have to tell them at some point what they are doing is unacceptable and be willing to walk or you are just going to be a weak guy whose wife is with another man.


----------



## BlueCalcite

Entropy3000 said:


> If you acting to protect your marriage pushes her away then she is already gone.


This.


----------



## walkonmars

Others have given you very good advice. Most of these posters are experienced in troubled marital issues such as yours. You are getting very valuable advice and it would behoove you to consider it carefully. Alte Dame's advice is particularly cogent. 

However, you have to stiffen your spine. You can't act in half-measures. If you do, you may as well do nothing and drift along and ignore your gut feeling. There's far too many spouses that take this tact to the detriment of their marriage and family. Think about it. 

If you feel too weak to take control of your life and your marriage by acting forthrightly and directly then you may first try to use the hack maneuver to see if you can get past her pw-protected phone screen:

Samsung Galaxy S III bug lets anyone bypass password-protected lockscreen | NDTV Gadgets


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> No, no EX involved with this OM. I guess they hung out in college at one point and my W has girlfriends that are friends with this OM also.


Hopefully not. But that does not make him harmless. There is always a chance that there was more and you just do not know but for now he is just a potential poacher.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> The part that I fear is that I want the romance to keep going, it really has been great that way. And I just feel that if I come out and ask for her yahoo password, in which I've never requested, that she will get mad and then shut off all the romance. And may even get mad with nothing going on, just question me for even wondering why she would be doing something. Putting me on the defensive. I am staying covert though, no more confrontations.


Hey. A man has to have balls sir. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I get what you are saying. So be the guy. Stay romantic with her but fear is your worst enemy right now. 

So what if she gets mad. Your marriage is on the line.
You should have enough intmacy to deal with this.

Basically there is a fire. You must get control over before it burns down your house. Being a guy is not always easy. Sometimes we need to risk being the bad guy. But we are designed to do this.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> The stalemate, that is what I'm concerned about. I get the answer no, then what?


Be the kind of man who doesn't take "No" for an answer.


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## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> Yes, fear that my gut is right. And then fear that I'm being paranoided and shouldn't screw up a good thing.


Have confidence in yourself. You are taking action for your marriage. Do not be driven by fear. Be driven by doing your job as her husband. It is your duty to the marriage to protect it. Do it because it is the right thing to do.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> The stalemate, that is what I'm concerned about. I get the answer no, then what?
> 
> I'm not going to kick her out or file immediately. So?


No is the answer. There is no stalemate. If she says no she is being unfaithful to you. 

No is telling you that you have no right as her husband to be concerened. It means you are not a partnership. She is opting out of the partnership.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> Can I ask, are most of the people responding to my questions been cheated on already? Is everything such doom and gloom?
> 
> I can't verify things at this point, so a simple answer of no to giving out a password is not a reason to kick someone out or divorce. I'd feel like complete crap if I went that route and absolutely nothing was happening.


I was the one in the EA. So I know how this works.

This is very serious stuff. You either act early enough or you risk losing your wife forever.

How important is she to you? If she is not important enough for you to act then fine. Do nothing.

My wife saved our marriage by caring enough to act.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> I'm questioning, I have no proof. If I had proof, then she'd be out the door. But her saying no to a question about a password is not a reason to kick someone out the door. I have young kids and I would not take away their mother either. Seriously, things have been the best they have been for quite some time right now. Just have a gut feeling though.


It woudl be for me. If you have kids you need to protect your marriage.

Basically you tell her that no is not acceptable. That no is her saying she wants to leave you.

You have to pick your battles and you have to be willing to stand up to her for your childrens sake.

Realize that affairs are addictions.

That what you risk is losing your children if this goes further. That she may end up leaving you and that your kids will be raised by someone else. That is a very possible consequnec of not standing your ground when things are early.

You need to be more assertive and not assume she will say no. But this speaks volumes. You know she will say no don't you. That means you know she does not respect you enough. That for some control / power issue she demands to be independent. You need to tell her that your require transparency.


----------



## Entropy3000

CalBanker said:


> Of course I will offer up my info. Actually she has all my passwords and emails. My phone is never locked or such....I give her true transparency. I guess I have just never asked for it from her. Never really concerned myself with it.


And this is why you are here now. Marriages are a partnership. Demand the same transparency of her. 
It is not just your right but it is your role as a father of your children. They need you to enage this. They depend on you.


----------



## carmen ohio

CalBanker said:


> I'm questioning, I have no proof. If I had proof, then she'd be out the door. * But her saying no to a question about a password is not a reason to kick someone out the door.* I have young kids and I would not take away their mother either. Seriously, things have been the best they have been for quite some time right now. Just have a gut feeling though.





Thorburn said:


> Cal - my wife cheated on me several times over a 30 year M. She finally came clean in April after I started the D process.
> 
> Don't confront her with what you have if you can't follow through with consequences.
> 
> I am torn as to what to suggest. So I will lay out a few optioins.
> 
> 1. Stay in stealth mode. Try to get the passwords. But don't tip her that you need them.
> 
> 2. Confront. Take the phone, ask for her passwords, tell her that you need to check things. She will more than likely try one of several tactics. If it is "Sure, Honey, here is the passwords to my phone and emails", then check them. If she does this then you may have no cheating wife. I doubt that this will happen. The more likely scenerio is, "How dare you", "are you accusing ME of cheating", or a host of other things. Or, "I have a surprise for you and I can't show you right now", or, "Some of my GF's and I have been texting and you would not like it, we were just joking, let me erase those first". And too many of us have bought those arguments, why? Because we did not have hard proof. We were trying to get it. We become weak, we back down.
> 
> I agree that the direct method may be the best one, but I have been burnt too many times. I am jaded. I would say that doing this may make her take it further underground if there is something going on.
> 
> Yes I could have stopped my wife's A in 2011 if I would have been more bold. I saw it unfold. I saw the guy on FB then he disappeared. Yet, whenever I check her computer if I clicked back his FB kept appearing, but he was no longer a friend. She kept looking him up. Big red flag and I had just gone through this with another guy a year prior. I was stupid.
> 
> I caught my wife in 1999 by putting a key logger on our computer.
> 
> You have aphone to deal with and I would say that I am leaning more towards stealth. Seek out a way to get to her accounts without her knowing it.
> 
> I know your hesitation. You don't have proof.
> 
> Perhaps, you could say you were researching online about gut feelings and cheating spouses. That the sites told you to ask for her passwords and sit down together and log on to those sites.
> 
> If she is hiding stuff she will find a way out if you let her. Or you go stealth and wait.


Dear CalBanker,

Whether the bolded statement above is true or not depends on what kind of marriage you are willing to have. If you are prepared to live with someone who keeps secrets from you and does things that makes you suspect her of infidelity, then it is true. If, however, you are like most people who don't want to have a marriage in which their partner has a secret life and may be unfaithful, then it is not true.

Ask yourself the following question: would you stay married to your wife if she went off by herself every day for an hour or so and refused to tell you where she was going, what she was doing or who she was meeting? If not, then why would you be willing to stay in a marriage when she does the same things in the virtual world?

Thorburn has given you excellent advise (I was going to write something similar but he beat me to it). Being direct about these kinds of things is better because it means you are in control in your marriage rather than simply reacting to your wife (which means that she is in control). However, it will only work if you have the resolve to follow through, meaning that you must be willing to give your wife serious consequences (including, ultimately, demonstrating your willingness to end the marriage) if she is not prepared to be completely open and honest about everything she does.

If you can't do this, then the better course of action is to spy on her until you have sufficient proof of inappropriate behavior such that you are prepared to give her an ultimatum.

There's an old saying on TAM/CWI that you must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. Until you are there mentally and emotionally, do not confront her. When you are, make her understand that you are prepared to end the marriage if she doesn't come clean about what she's done.

Your alternative is to do nothing and hope that your concerns are unfounded. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case.

Good luck.


----------



## Entropy3000

But I emphasize the objective here is to save your marriage. It is not to be divorced. You lessen the chance of losing her by taking action. By being firm. You may even gain some much needed confidence and respect.

Ask yourself why she likes this guy. Why would she risk her marriage for him? Does she respect him? Dose he take action? Is he more exciting?


----------



## CalBanker

Entropy3000 said:


> Hopefully not. But that does not make him harmless. There is always a chance that there was more and you just do not know but for now he is just a potential poacher.


He is probably a potential poacher as you call it.


----------



## jack.c

ther is an italian song that in a few words go's like this:
Get a woman and give gifts, be always around, show her how much tyou care, be always ther for her needs.... and be sure you will be hurt! Get a woman treat her bad but be the best lover in bed, fulfill every her desire but never let her feel to much important ..... and you know for sure that she will never hurt you....

I know, sounds rude, but it's mother nature.

stil now I wonder how much true it is....


----------



## CalBanker

So does anyone look at this as a glass half full view rather than all glass half empty.

Are their experiences out there where someone did push the spouse and push the spouse to give up certain passwords and details and their ended up being nothing there.

I turn this on myself and I wonder what I would feel if my wife was accusing me of lying and cheating and their was absolutely nothing there. How would I feel? I think I would feel betrayed and hurt. 

I know I know, grow a pair. 

You know what, the biggest fear is that their is something there.....and the unknown after that.


----------



## sinnister

CalBanker,

Do not ever discount your gut. I truly believe the Lord gives us the sense for a reason. 

Also, just because things seem to be going very well with her right now, does not mean that it's not a form of compensation.

Right now you have no proof so I can understand your apprehension. But I sense a little bit of denial going on here. Which is also completely normal. Without proof there is nothing much to react to. But I would say if she says no to your request that it is a VERY significant indicator that your gut may be correct.

Here's hoping that I'm wrong.


----------



## F-102

Cal, I think that the question is this. Would you rather:

A: Suspect her of cheating, find out that she wasn't, and have her angry and having her "ice" you for a few weeks?

Or:

B: Do nothing, lose respect with her, indeed lose her to this POSOM, and be sitting in a room with her, lawyers and accountants, going over every thread of your finances, having decisions made for you about when you get to see the kids again, losing your house and car, tail tucked between your legs, wondering: "What if I would have killed this at the beginning?"


----------



## jack.c

sinnister said:


> CalBanker,
> 
> Do not ever discount your gut. I truly believe the Lord gives us the sense for a reason.
> 
> Also, just because things seem to be going very well with her right now, does not mean that it's not a form of compensation.
> 
> Right now you have no proof so I can understand your apprehension. But I sense a little bit of denial going on here. Which is also completely normal. Without proof there is nothing much to react to. But I would say if she says no to your request that it is a VERY significant indicator that your gut may be correct.
> 
> Here's hoping that I'm wrong.



:iagree::iagree:


----------



## tom67

F-102 said:


> Cal, I think that the question is this. Would you rather:
> 
> A: Suspect her of cheating, find out that she wasn't, and have her angry and having her "ice" you for a few weeks?
> 
> Or:
> 
> B: Do nothing, lose respect with her, indeed lose her to this POSOM, and be sitting in a room with her, lawyers and accountants, going over every thread of your finances, having decisions made for you about when you get to see the kids again, losing your house and car, tail tucked between your legs, wondering: "What if I would have killed this at the beginning?"


Think about it please.


----------



## weightlifter

Standard instructions about going 007. Stop confronting already.

Complete plan. START NOW

VARs and evidence

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 or ICDPX333 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or the aisle with the fasteners like screws.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. 

Lets be very clear about what the VAR is for and is not for. It will not be court admissible evidence. It is not for the confrontation. IT IS TO GET YOU AHEAD OF THE AFFAIR so you can gain other real evidence by knowing the who and when. NEVER MENTION YOUR VAR EVIDENCE. As far as the cheater is concerned, they were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex
Rclawson came up with how to get the PW on an ipad
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...eling-my-wife-cheating-me-16.html#post4692714

A poster named Stigmatizer came up with this nice app that appears to give the caller name for iphones:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...y-creepy-happening-my-home-7.html#post4769890

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/4854930-post220.html
Hi rosie!

If he uses chrome or firefox, there is probably a list of saved passwords you can look at. Even if his email isn't saved there, people usually only use a couple of different passwords, so one from the list might work. 

For firefox it's Tools -> Options -> Security -> Saved Passwords

For Chrome it's the little box with three bars in the top right -> Settings - Show advanced settings -> Managed saved passwords

I don't know if other browsers save the passwords where you can view them but you should be able to google and find out!


----------



## walkonmars

CalBanker said:


> So does anyone look at this as a glass half full view rather than all glass half empty.
> 
> Are their experiences out there where someone did push the spouse and push the spouse to give up certain passwords and details and their ended up being nothing there.
> 
> I turn this on myself and I wonder what I would feel if my wife was accusing me of lying and cheating and their was absolutely nothing there. How would I feel? I think I would feel betrayed and hurt.
> 
> I know I know, grow a pair.
> 
> You know what, the biggest fear is that their is something there.....and the unknown after that.


Unless you've accused her of cheating on a regular basis she will not (if she's completely innocent) hold it against you. 

If the shoe were on the other foot and she asked you for passwords wouldn't you jump at the opportunity to set her mind at ease? I would.


----------



## Hope1964

This guy talked about her getting BUSTED. What exactly do you take that to mean?????


----------



## Tobyboy

Timing is everything....when you ask to see her email and FB accounts. Assuming she does all her messaging during her work hours, it would be pointless to demand access as soon as she walks through the front door(everything would be deleted)

A surprise visit(at her workplace) on Friday afternoon would be the optimus time for such confrontation.


----------



## TexDad034

EA for sure. I spent months in the same type of denial and was even lied to about the affair. It took a PI the first night I hired him to find my wife staying at the OMs house. 

First red flag IMO is fishy phone behavior. Trust your gut dude. The longer you wait the worse it hurts. Especially since you have kids. If she is having the affair I would head straight to dadsdivorce.com and read "the list". Protect your time with your kids or you will get screwed.


----------



## carolinadreams

Cal you are acting (or rather not acting ) from fear.

This isn't 1950 temptation and forces that would destroy your marriage are in constant effect. Your marriage isn't valued by the external world, what is valued is the appearance and validation of "sexiness", and rapid and frequent sexual or emotional gratification.

I think unless marriages have strong and consistent communication and openness to each other, and big firewalls with the outside world they are almost likely going to end in divorce or infidelity. People simply don't have the capacity to process the nonsense they are continually assaulted with today.


----------



## CalBanker

I think I will get ahold of the phone then and just find out what her response is going to be.


----------



## Hope1964

CalBanker said:


> I think I will get ahold of the phone then and just find out what her response is going to be.


What's the point of this?? You're putting her on to you, and you have NO plan to get ANY info.


----------



## BlueCalcite

It needs to be either a hard confront with consequences if she refuses to accommodate you, or a period of playing dumb collecting evidence. Anything in between gives her the advantage and handcuffs you going forward.


----------



## carmen ohio

CalBanker said:


> So does anyone look at this as a glass half full view rather than all glass half empty.
> 
> Are their experiences out there where someone did push the spouse and push the spouse to give up certain passwords and details and their ended up being nothing there.
> 
> I turn this on myself and I wonder what I would feel if my wife was accusing me of lying and cheating and their was absolutely nothing there. How would I feel? I think I would feel betrayed and hurt.
> 
> I know I know, grow a pair.
> 
> You know what, the biggest fear is that their is something there.....and the unknown after that.


You do not need to accuse her of anything. Just explain why you are concerned and tell her that married couples should not have secrets from each other. Explain that you want to make sure your marriage is strong and you can't be sure of that if she is keeping secrets from you. If she balks, you don't have to do anything immediately, although it would be best if you would alt least did express your disappointment and say that you are going to have to think about what her refusal means for your marriage.



CalBanker said:


> I think I will get ahold of the phone then and just find out what her response is going to be.


Are going to ask for her password? If not, I don't understand what you think this will accomplish other than to let her know that you are suspicious but don't have the nerve to do anything about it.


----------



## walkonmars

CalBanker said:


> I think I will get ahold of the phone then and just find out what her response is going to be.


That's a half measure!

Her response is going to be: "Cal, quit faarting around and gimme that phone you duffus"

Stand up straight and take control. 

(take the phone)
"Betty, I want you to set my mind at ease. Your recent actions have had me wondering who you've been contacting on the phone. Let me have the password to the phone". 

If she asks why --- just repeat the sentence above. 

If she doesn't give it to you remove the SIM card and hand her the phone back. Don't say another word and walk out.


----------



## CalBanker

carmen ohio said:


> You do not need to accuse her of anything. Just explain why you are concerned and tell her that married couples should not have secrets from each other. Explain that you want to make sure your marriage is strong and you can't be sure of that if she is keeping secrets from you. If she balks, you don't have to do anything immediately, although it would be best if you would alt least did express your disappointment and say that you are going to have to think about what her refusal means for your marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Are going to ask for her password? If not, I don't understand what you think this will accomplish other than to let her know that you are suspicious but don't have the nerve to do anything about it.


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I'm going to ask for the password and look through her email. If her response is that she will not give it to me, then I am going to have to really start thinking about other matters.


----------



## CalBanker

walkonmars said:


> That's a half measure!
> 
> Her response is going to be: "Cal, quit faarting around and gimme that phone you duffus"
> 
> Stand up straight and take control.
> 
> (take the phone)
> "Betty, I want you to set my mind at ease. Your recent actions have had me wondering who you've been contacting on the phone. Let me have the password to the phone".
> 
> If she asks why --- just repeat the sentence above.
> 
> If she doesn't give it to you remove the SIM card and hand her the phone back. Don't say another word and walk out.


It is not the phone that is locked, it is her yahoo password that I need along with FB.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I'm going to ask for the password and look through her email. If her response is that she will not give it to me, then I am going to have to really *start thinking about other matters.*


Specifically?

If your wife doesn't cough up the passwords after you've told her why, you will need to tell her what *you* find unacceptable. ie. secrecy in a marriage. This is not an ultimatum. This is called a boundary.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War: Do not go in half-c*cked.


----------



## Philat

CalBanker said:


> *Can I ask, are most of the people responding to my questions been cheated on already?* Is everything such doom and gloom?
> 
> I can't verify things at this point, so a simple answer of no to giving out a password is not a reason to kick someone out or divorce. I'd feel like complete crap if I went that route and absolutely nothing was happening.


I think the answer to your question is yes. FWIW, like many others I took the "glass half full" approach to my suspicions and ended up with a W who had a multiyear EA. If you are not pathologically suspicious by nature then your gut is a reliable indicator. Acting decisively early on is key.


----------



## CalBanker

azteca1986 said:


> Specifically?
> 
> If your wife doesn't cough up the passwords after you've told her why, you will need to tell her what *you* find unacceptable. ie. secrecy in a marriage. This is not an ultimatum. This is called a boundary.
> 
> Sun Tzu, The Art of War: Do not go in half-c*cked.


That I am going to start looking at possibly moving on without her. Maybe we need to take a break. 

Just remember, this isn't easy for me.....I know that I posted my concerns, but I feel like I'm getting moved to divorce her before I even know what the heck is going on. I feel I've been moved from point A to point ZZ in the matter of a couple hours. 

Some things need to be processed. I take calculated risks in my like...see banker! And this is a risk I can't seem to get my head around to calculate. So having some difficulty.


----------



## mahike

CalBanker said:


> Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I'm going to ask for the password and look through her email. If her response is that she will not give it to me, then I am going to have to really start thinking about other matters.


Most of us here are have been cheated on and most of us did not listen to our gut and when we did suspect we did the wrong things.

There is a cheaters playbook and it applies to EA's and PA's, emotional and physical Affairs. Your wife is throwing enough red flags for your concern. 

What you are missing here is that she can have a million different email accounts and only give you access to the one nothing is on. She can be contacting him via online games like words with friends. She could be skyping and so on.

If you feel something is going on you need to start your research if she suspects you are on to her and something is going on it will go deeper and be harder to find.

By the way many times the sex is OK at home that is to make sure you are happy and not looking around. 

Most times some one like you comes here it turns out to be really something to deal with. 

I really hope you are wrong but the red lights are there.


----------



## mahike

If you do find out she is cheating EA or PA you need to be prepared to end the marriage. Only if your WS feels like she can loose everything will it really stop and you will get all your questions answered.

If your wife does not think you have a pair she will gaslight and blame shift to you. It is what happened to most of us.


----------



## CalBanker

mahike said:


> Most of us here are have been cheated on and most of us did not listen to our gut and when we did suspect we did the wrong things.
> 
> There is a cheaters playbook and it applies to EA's and PA's, emotional and physical Affairs. Your wife is throwing enough red flags for your concern.
> 
> What you are missing here is that she can have a million different email accounts and only give you access to the one nothing is on. She can be contacting him via online games like words with friends. She could be skyping and so on.
> 
> If you feel something is going on you need to start your research if she suspects you are on to her and something is going on it will go deeper and be harder to find.
> 
> By the way many times the sex is OK at home that is to make sure you are happy and not looking around.
> 
> Most times some one like you comes here it turns out to be really something to deal with.
> 
> I really hope you are wrong but the red lights are there.


I am not worried about texts for phone calls from her phone, I'm not worried about other emails, as she can't do any personal email at work (blocked) so she runs all her email through her phone with yahoo. We don't have a personal computer at home. So it is down to just her cell phone. And the last two nights I scrolled through her internet history, which she hasn't deleted and their are several sent and then trashed emails, but I can't get the password to know who they are too. And she has said she doesn't use this email.


----------



## anchorwatch

Even if you get the phone, she more than likely deleted everything. 

You will need to recover that data.


----------



## distraughtfromtexas

Cal,
You know in your heart she is lying to you. You also need to be prepared that she is not going to give you the password until later when she has had the chance to cover her tracks. What are you prepared to do then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CalBanker

anchorwatch said:


> Even if you get the phone, she more than likely deleted everything.
> 
> You will need to recover that data.


If she is confident that I don't know the password, why would she delete it. Plus, how do I recover it?

I think I may need to cancel my trip, which was hunting in November too. Their may be a reaction there.


----------



## CalBanker

distraughtfromtexas said:


> Cal,
> You know in your heart she is lying to you. You also need to be prepared that she is not going to give you the password until later when she has had the chance to cover her tracks. What are you prepared to do then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What am I suppose to do, go file right there? With absolutely no proof?

I don't know that she is lying.


----------



## Hope1964

I feel like I am on the OP's ignore list or something.

Dude, you're far too wishy washy right now to do ANY confronting. Honestly, I say this with the BEST of intentions. I know it isn't what you want to hear. I know this sucks. But I have been there. When I found my husbands yahoo account, I went ballistic and played my hand too soon. I should have put a keylogger on his computer and gathered evidence so that I would know the extent of exactly what he was up to. But I didn't have TAM guiding me at the time. I didn't have any problems with consequences - I kicked him out - but it would have been very helpful later on for me to have had that info.

If you can't come up with anything better than thinking about what you MIGHT do, then don't confront yet. Don't ask for her passwords.

Did you read the part about taking her phone BEFORE asking for the password at least? And NOT giving it back till you GET the password?

And while you're at it, tell me what exactly you think 'busted' means in the context you found it? I've asked twice and you haven't answered me.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> That I am going to start looking at possibly moving on without her. Maybe we need to take a break.


Don't give away your game plan. No move out 'to give her space' either. Trial separations just give her room to escalate her affair.



> Just remember, this isn't easy for me.....I know that I posted my concerns, but I feel like I'm getting moved to divorce her before I even know what the heck is going on. I feel I've been moved from point A to point ZZ in the matter of a couple hours.
> 
> Some things need to be processed. I take calculated risks in my like...see banker! And this is a risk I can't seem to get my head around to calculate. So having some difficulty.


Look, don't do a d*mn thing till you're ready. 

Find out how to recover deleted emails from yahoo. Set up an account and test it out for yourself. I think you can recover 48hrs of texts. Same goes for yahoo messenger. Research this tonight.

EDIT: Look it up on google. There's youtube how-to's.


----------



## movin on

Yeah that busted comment would be enough for me to demand answers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CalBanker

Hope1964 said:


> I feel like I am on the OP's ignore list or something.
> 
> Dude, you're far too wishy washy right now to do ANY confronting. Honestly, I say this with the BEST of intentions. I know it isn't what you want to hear. I know this sucks. But I have been there. When I found my husbands yahoo account, I went ballistic and played my hand too soon. I should have put a keylogger on his computer and gathered evidence so that I would know the extent of exactly what he was up to. But I didn't have TAM guiding me at the time. I didn't have any problems with consequences - I kicked him out - but it would have been very helpful later on for me to have had that info.
> 
> If you can't come up with anything better than thinking about what you MIGHT do, then don't confront yet. Don't ask for her passwords.
> 
> Did you read the part about taking her phone BEFORE asking for the password at least? And NOT giving it back till you GET the password?
> 
> And while you're at it, tell me what exactly you think 'busted' means in the context you found it? I've asked twice and you haven't answered me.


Hope,

I'm sorry for not responding, I've read a lot today and it has been a lot to digest. 

I agree with you that maybe I need to wait. Where do I get a keylogger, are their apps for phones?

Yes, my plan was to take the phone and keep the phone until I got a password. Even take it to work with me the next day if she wasn't willing to budge.

Yes, the "busted" part does not sound good. It sounds to me like they were chatting in appropriately.


----------



## distraughtfromtexas

CalBanker said:


> What am I suppose to do, go file right there? With absolutely no proof?
> 
> I don't know that she is lying.


I would refer to what Hope just wrote. The point is, if you aren't confident in your confrontation, you will let her steamroll over you and then you will never get information because she will go underground. Either start secretly looking or gather your resolve and get PISSED and be prepared not to back down!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

CalBanker said:


> What am I suppose to do, go file right there? With absolutely no proof?
> 
> I don't know that she is lying.


I'm sorry, I thought you said in an earlier post that you checked the internet history and confirmed that she has been sending emails and then trashing them from an account THAT SHE TOLD YOU SHE NEVER USES.

Looks like she is lying to me. Or am I taking this out of context?


----------



## Hope1964

CalBanker said:


> Hope,
> 
> I'm sorry for not responding, I've read a lot today and it has been a lot to digest.
> 
> I agree with you that maybe I need to wait. Where do I get a keylogger, are their apps for phones?
> 
> Yes, my plan was to take the phone and keep the phone until I got a password. Even take it to work with me the next day if she wasn't willing to budge.
> 
> Yes, the "busted" part does not sound good. It sounds to me like they were chatting in appropriately.


I knew you were reading  I know it's a ton of sh!t to take in right now. And believe me, I know exactly what you're feeling.

There's an evidence gathering thread around here somewhere in CWI, if you don't want to wade thru the whole thing you could try PMing whoever started it and asking for help. That's where I'd start with phone apps and keyloggers.

And yeah, him asking her if she was busted really does tell you that they ARE being inappropriate. If you DO decide to ask for her phone password, I would use that. But I think it's smart to wait right now and see what you can find out.


----------



## badmemory

distraughtfromtexas said:


> Cal,
> You know in your heart she is lying to you. You also need to be prepared that she is not going to give you the password until later when she has had the chance to cover her tracks. What are you prepared to do then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why you ask for the password and the phone at the same time, when she's not expecting it. You don't have to come off as a dominating control freak. You calmly explain why; just as several posters have advised. 

But if she refuses; you absolutely have to give her an ultimatum right then and there.You give her that ultimatum just as calmly. Otherwise she is likely to delete everything, if she hasn't already, before reluctantly handing it over hours or days later. 

Don't apologize to her if you find nothing. You don't need to be sorry for asking her to respect a reasonable marital boundary.


----------



## distraughtfromtexas

badmemory said:


> That's why you ask for the password and the phone at the same time, when she's not expecting it. You don't have to come off as a dominating control freak. You calmly explain why; just as several posters have advised.
> 
> But if she refuses; you absolutely have to give her an ultimatum right then and there.You give her that ultimatum just as calmly. Otherwise she is likely to delete everything, if she hasn't already, before reluctantly handing it over hours or days later.
> 
> Don't apologize to her if you find nothing. You don't need to be sorry for asking her to respect a reasonable marital boundary.


I agree. But mentally he needs to be ready for gaslighting because it will happen and I don't want his strength to waver.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> Yes, my plan was to take the phone and keep the phone until I got a password. Even take it to work with me the next day if she wasn't willing to budge.


If you have her phone and you don't have a personal computer at home, ie. she can't access the internet (your phone must be on lockdown too - stick a password on it  ), what's stopping you from resetting her password and answering her security question? 

Again, don't do anything till you have the resolve to do it. If you've moved from "What do I do, I'm lost" to "I will do something" today has been a good day.


----------



## CalBanker

TDSC60 said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you said in an earlier post that you checked the internet history and confirmed that she has been sending emails and then trashing them from an account THAT SHE TOLD YOU SHE NEVER USES.
> 
> Looks like she is lying to me. Or am I taking this out of context?


Yes, you are correct. Plus, she won't sync this email to her phone, in which I do so that my emails always pop up and she can see them.


----------



## sandc

Cal,
Fear is paralyzing you. Fear of her. Fear of losing her. Fear of discovering the truth so you have to deal with it. That's all it is, fear. It may be this avoidance of conflict that is making her seek out other men. She may be needing a "real" man. I'm sure you're manly in plenty of areas but there may be a component that is missing for her. 

Personally I think you should do some surveilance first. You're right in that you don't know what you're dealing with. I would put a VAR in her car for a week or so and see what you get first. I would put a keylogger on the computer for a few weeks and see what you get first. This also gives you time to prep yourself.

If the VAR and keylogger turn up nothing then you'll have to take her phone. Make sure she has no access to a computer. Demand the password. Don't ask. Demand. Remind her she has all your passwords. Remind her she's your wife not your friend or room mate. Do NOT give her phone back until she gives you the password. And expect a fight. She'll fight like you've never seen her fight. She won't be the woman you remember. She will start fighting really dirty to prevent you from discovering what she is doing.

I know you'd like for us to tell you the glass is half full. And it a way it is. But it's emptying quick and if you don't act decisively it will be empty before you know what's happened. So brace yourself and just do it if this is what you've decided.

Here is what I would recommend:
- Buy a few VARs following Weightlifter's recommendations. Put it where you think she will do most of her talking on the phone in the house and in her car. 
- Install a keylogger on your home computer (if she ever uses it for email)
- Take her car keys.
- Take her phone.
- Demand the password.
- When she won't give it to you, take her phone and leave in your car. The VAR should be running so you'll get her side of the conversation on any calls she makes.
- Drive to a library or just use her phone to try to log in to her email. Go through the "I forgot my password" process. Maybe it can text the password to her phone.
- If that fails then go back home and see if she's changed her mind. If she hasn't pack her some clothes and ask her to leave. Make sure she knows that yeah, it's THAT important. 

If it gets to that then you better start thinking of the big D. Read some of the threads here in CWI and also Private Members' section. You'll see why. These stories follow a script and yours is no different. Read. You'll see the patterns repeated over and over.


----------



## badmemory

distraughtfromtexas said:


> I agree. But mentally he needs to be ready for gaslighting *because it will happen* and I don't want his strength to waver.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure you're right distraught. But OP, if you approach her the right way, and she values her marriage at all, she'll give you that phone.


----------



## CalBanker

azteca1986 said:


> If you have her phone and you don't have a personal computer at home, ie. she can't access the internet (your phone must be on lockdown too - stick a password on it  ), what's stopping you from resetting her password and answering her security question?
> 
> Again, don't do anything till you have the resolve to do it. If you've moved from "What do I do, I'm lost" to "I will do something" today has been a good day.


That is great, if she isn't willing to part with her password after I have her phone in my hand, then I will just reset her password. If she doesn't like it, too bad, should have just given me the password in the first place. And I already looked it up on google, you can request permanently deleted emails for the past 7 days.


----------



## anchorwatch

CalBanker said:


> Hope,
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that maybe I need to wait. Where do I get a keylogger, are their apps for phones?
> 
> Yes, my plan was to take the phone and keep the phone until I got a password. Even take it to work with me the next day if she wasn't willing to budge.
> 
> Yes, the "busted" part does not sound good. It sounds to me like they were chatting in appropriately.


I gave you those links earlier in the thread. Here they are again, along with DD's thread about what he used and how he caught his wife and their friend. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67661-become-spy-catching-them-technology.html

For the phone 
Cell Phone Monitoring Software Review 2013 | Best Mobile Phone Tracker | Text Message Monitoring - TopTenREVIEWS

For the computer
Computer Monitoring Software Reviews

To retrieve facebook chats
Download Fchat Free

Stay in control of yourself as best you can. Fair but resolved. Make a plan and stick to it.


----------



## CalBanker

badmemory said:


> I'm sure you're right distraught. But OP, if you approach her the right way, and she values her marriage at all, she'll give you that phone.


That is totally what I am thinking. I'm thinking that she is going to give me the password and then the egg is on my face.

And yes to all, I am being wishy washy, this is my marriage I am dealing with and I can't make a choice to end it in one day, IMHO. 

You can't tell me that all of you in the past didn't struggle mightily with your marriage and I guess if you didn't then you must not have had much of a marriage as it stood. I feel that I have a good marriage.

I know, I shouldn't have come here asking questions if I didn't want an answer. But again, my head is just spinning.


----------



## sandc

Cal,
Don't cancel the trip. Does she have an iPhone? Can you install find my phone so you can see where she is? Go away for a day or two and check on the whereabouts of her phone. Some of these apps have the ability to turn on the microphone so you can hear what's being said in the room. This is how DevastatedDad busted his WS. PM him to find out what app he was using.

Despite my earlier post it is way too early to confront. You need to find out what she's really doing before you can confront. You don't know what you're dealing with.

Oh, and be sure to use Private Browsing or clear your browsing history each time you come to TAM, if at home. Other suspicious husbands have been busted this way.


----------



## distraughtfromtexas

CalBanker said:


> That is great, if she isn't willing to part with her password after I have her phone in my hand, then I will just reset her password. If she doesn't like it, too bad, should have just given me the password in the first place. And I already looked it up on google, you can request permanently deleted emails for the past 7 days.


Atta boy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

CalBanker said:


> I don't know that she is lying.


 Yes you do know that she is lying. Just scroll up the page, and you will see that you said "And the last two nights I scrolled through her internet history, which she hasn't deleted and their are several sent and then trashed emails, but I can't get the password to know who they are too. And she has said she doesn't use this email." Call her out on her lie. Take her phone, turn it off, and put it where she cannot get to it. Then tell her that if she does not use this email account, there should be no reason that she not give you the username and password. Tell her that by not immediately giving you the username and password, she would be confirmation that she has something to hide, and that she is lying to you about not using the email account. 

Tell her that other than when you are in the toilet, there is no expectoration of privacy in a healthy marriage. Demand full transparency between the two of you going froward that includes all passwords. Offer her your info in writing and ask her for hers. If she does not agree to this, there is something that you can do other than divorce; Google "Marriage 180" and follow through by acting on this.


----------



## badcompany

Cal, follow the advice given, and go look at the other threads in CWI. Probably 95% of them that started with that "gut feeling" or some simple strange occurances revealed something going on.


----------



## sandc

CalBanker said:


> That is totally what I am thinking. I'm thinking that she is going to give me the password and then the egg is on my face.
> 
> And yes to all, I am being wishy washy, this is my marriage I am dealing with and I can't make a choice to end it in one day, IMHO.
> 
> You can't tell me that all of you in the past didn't struggle mightily with your marriage and I guess if you didn't then you must not have had much of a marriage as it stood. I feel that I have a good marriage.
> 
> I know, I shouldn't have come here asking questions if I didn't want an answer. But again, my head is just spinning.


Cal,
How many betrayed spouses have you talked to?  Now ask everyone here how many betrayed spouses they have talked to? All the way from "My gut is telling me something is wrong" al the way to "I'm getting divorced" OR "We are in reconciliation now". The people here know what to do. They know how the WS is going to react. Much of the advice you will receive her is counter-intuitive but... YOU NEED TO LISTEN AND FOLLOW THE ADVICE GIVEN TO YOU. The folks here at TAM have been through this same story probably 20 times this year alone.

We don't want you to divorce, we want to help you find the truth. Once you get there it's your path alone to decide what to do from there.


----------



## badmemory

CalBanker said:


> That is great, if she isn't willing to part with her password after I have her phone in my hand, then I will just reset her password. If she doesn't like it, too bad, should have just given me the password in the first place. And I already looked it up on google, you can request permanently deleted emails for the past 7 days.


That's the ticket Calbanker. Now you have a plan. Have that VAR in her car before you implement it. That's the backup plan.

If she's willing to divorce you over this "invasion of privacy", you should be just as willing to divorce her if she won't hand it over.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> That is totally what I am thinking. I'm thinking that she is going to give me the password and then the egg is on my face.


Up until the point you recover deleted emails from the account she 'doesn't use'.



> But again, my head is just spinning.


So, don't do anything now. Wait till you have your wits about you.


----------



## anchorwatch

This may be nothing or as simple a swatting some guy away from interest in your wife. Expect the best outcome, be prepared for the worst. Do this in defense of your marriage.


----------



## badmemory

CalBanker said:


> *You can't tell me that all of you in the past didn't struggle mightily with your marriage* and I guess if you didn't then you must not have had much of a marriage as it stood. I feel that I have a good marriage.


What I can tell you as that if I had the benefit of TAM during the my wife's 2 year PA, it wouldn't have been a 2 year PA. I would have caught her after a few weeks.


----------



## CalBanker

azteca1986 said:


> Up until the point you recover deleted emails from the account she 'doesn't use'.
> 
> So, don't do anything now. Wait till you have your wits about you.


Yeah, I know tonight I can't do anything....I have to process some of this information that has been given.

And I really appreciate everyone giving me a lot of great ideas and things that I would have never thought of. 

I'm going to try to keep pulling in additional information.


----------



## Hope1964

Has anyone pointed you to the CWI newbie thread?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


----------



## Thorburn

azteca1986 said:


> Up until the point you recover deleted emails from the account she 'doesn't use'.
> 
> So, don't do anything now. Wait till you have your wits about you.


And this is the exact defence you use. Say you told me you don't use this email and yet I found sent, recieved and deleted messages. I do believe if I have said I don't have an email account and found out it was being used, that you would be doing something very similar to what I am doing. Just checking the facts ma'am.


----------



## anchorwatch

Take your time if nothing is eminent!


----------



## WalterWhite

CalBanker, it's not enough that a spouse should not cheat. A spouse should not SEEM to be cheating as well. It almost does not matter if your husband is having extramarital sex or not. The fact that he has a long history of being inappropriate with other women is enough to judge him as having cheated. Moreover, he knows his behavior is destroying your feelings yet he continues with his in appropriateness. The fact that you keep wanting more proof indicates just how scared you are of a future without him. You already have all the info you need to make an informed decision. What are you waiting for? To become a welcome matt? You have been one for years now. Sad.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## alte Dame

anchorwatch said:


> This may be nothing or as simple a swatting some guy away from interest in your wife. Expect the best outcome, be prepared for the worst. Do this in defense of your marriage.


Yes, defending your marriage is worth a little egg on your face. Don't let the fear of unknowns paralyze you. Your questions are reasonable.


----------



## CalBanker

Hope1964 said:


> Has anyone pointed you to the CWI newbie thread?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


Thank you for that, I did read that. Food for thought, and I now I will go home and let that process.


----------



## Tobyboy

Don't forget....she could have 2 yahoo accounts!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Tobyboy said:


> Don't forget....she could have 2 yahoo accounts!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which is why he needs to figure out a way to slap a keylogger on that phone.


----------



## distraughtfromtexas

WalterWhite said:


> CalBanker, it's not enough that a spouse should not cheat. A spouse should not SEEM to be cheating as well. It almost does not matter if your husband is having extramarital sex or not. The fact that he has a long history of being inappropriate with other women is enough to judge him as having cheated. Moreover, he knows his behavior is destroying your feelings yet he continues with his in appropriateness. The fact that you keep wanting more proof indicates just how scared you are of a future without him. You already have all the info you need to make an informed decision. What are you waiting for? To become a welcome matt? You have been one for years now. Sad.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Best username ever!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Dude. I gave you acomplete plan. VARS are gold. I cant go to best buy for you.

Btw some phones you can read the card directly on another device. Eric415 got his confirmation by syncing an iphone. If you can get her phone going sync it yourself. There are recovery programs for both iphone and android.


----------



## moto164

Also make sure she does not find your on this site.


----------



## Remains

When, and if, you take her phone off her and she gives you the password and you find nothing there, which is likely as she deletes them all (be sure to ask around the time she is likely to have received one if you can), make sure you change passwords and set up extra levels of security so she cannot hack back into it. No doubt she will. Everyone has computers, and I am sure she has friends. Also, keep her phone. Go through it thoroughly. And put the setting in to forward all email to you also. This should hopefully cover all bases. 

Tell her that if she goes near that email (while you wait for deleted mail recovery) then it is divorce. No questions. Straight there. Even if you are not prepared to see this through it will have a 2-fold outcome for you. 1. If she goes near the email it confirms her cheating to you. Additionally, if she refuses to give you the password it confirms her cheating also. 2. It shows you exactly how highly she values the marriage.

Finally, I am sure someone must have pointed this out, but I skimmed and didn't see it. To point out or to reitterate...you say your marriage has been the best ever recently. This suggests a highly sexually charged EA, or some one night stand PA's. If it was a PA regular affair she would be going off sex with you. Usually, when there is a sexual interest elsewhere, but no chance of regular sex, she will fulfill her sexual frustrations with her unsuspecting husband. 

So, this recent great marriage is likely more to do with her wandering I am afraid. 

Sorry to be so blunt. I mean it kindly. Many, most, of us have been where you are and in need of a reality check. You will get there...so long as you want to.


----------



## mahike

I know last night must have been tough for you after all the opinions given to you today. Let us know how you are doing. Did any new red flags come up?


----------



## bartendersfriend

Calbanker - I hope you come back to check-in and I hope, for your sake, that nothing is going on and this starts a dialogue with your wife about the appearance of secrecy. There was so much good advice in this thread for others. Most importantly, I think all of us here (cheated on or not), will agree that one of the biggest things we have learned through our experience at TAM is that openness and honesty are requirements of a marriage. You are not damaging your marriage by expecting your wife to be open about who she communicates with and how. You are trying to strengthen your marriage. You are not asking any more of her than she should expect of you. Please let us know how you are doing.


----------



## CalBanker

I'm leaning towards myself being paranoid. I am going to keep up my investigation, but another great night with her. She actually asked to play some games and got changed into something very nice. 

I read another poster that said the wife left after finding a VAR, so I'm really going to just do my own investigating and watch closely for something, but I'm also not going to break her trust either. 

I'm sorry, but I am more a glass half full kind of guy.

I wanted some opinions and they have been great, but I don't want to make a mistake. 

I also don't want to be the guy that is always snoping through her email and her phone each and everyday, I don't want to live that way. Part of me would rather enjoy my marriage as it is now and for some reason if I get smacked in the face for it, well then shame on her for doing it and shame on me for not pushing it harder. But I'm not going to live in the PI mode all the time. When the time is right, I will get her phone and politely ask for her password to her email and if she doesn't give it, I will take the phone away and let her know that this is a violation of our vows and all marriages should have transparency.


----------



## CalBanker

bartendersfriend said:


> Calbanker - I hope you come back to check-in and I hope, for your sake, that nothing is going on and this starts a dialogue with your wife about the appearance of secrecy. There was so much good advice in this thread for others. Most importantly, I think all of us here (cheated on or not), will agree that one of the biggest things we have learned through our experience at TAM is that openness and honesty are requirements of a marriage. You are not damaging your marriage by expecting your wife to be open about who she communicates with and how. You are trying to strengthen your marriage. You are not asking any more of her than she should expect of you. Please let us know how you are doing.


I did scan through the internet history and their weren't any sent messages, their was some trash, but I know that she gets a lot of spam email through this account also.


----------



## bartendersfriend

CalBanker said:


> Part of me would rather enjoy my marriage as it is now and for some reason if I get smacked in the face for it, well then shame on her for doing it and shame on me for not pushing it harder.


You need to do what is right for you.

I have not been at this site long enough to know how many people here had stories that started with a gut feeling. I would have never thought my wife (or friend) could have betrayed me in the way they did. Looking back, there were so many warning signs or red flags that I certainly should not have had blind trust. I finally saw a sign (the creation of a new email address) that I chose not to ignore. I finally was hit with the truth and it was not fun at all. But, I still may have stopped it from going to a place that would have ended the marriage permanently. I think all of the comments here are aimed at exposing anything early based on your gut feeling, the "busted" comment, and phone secrecy. Finding out early can save your marriage.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> I'm sorry, but I am more a glass half full kind of guy.


Good for you. Personally, I'm a relentless optimist.



> I also don't want to be the guy that is always snoping through her email and her phone each and everyday, I don't want to live that way. Part of me would rather enjoy my marriage as it is now and for some reason if I get smacked in the face for it, well then shame on her for doing it and shame on me for not pushing it harder. But I'm not going to live in the PI mode all the time. When the time is right, I will get her phone and politely ask for her password to her email and if she doesn't give it, I will take the phone away and let her know that this is a violation of our vows and all marriages should have transparency.


Everyone has to find their own path. I couldn't go down the CIA route either. If it ever came to that I think we'd be too far gone. Don't be complacent. This is a sure-fire marriage killer. Sometime in the near future you'll have to talk to your wife about the following (think of it as giving your marriage a slight course correction):

1. There's no place for secrecy between spouses. It erodes the trust between you.
2. There's no room in a marriage for a third party.

Handled with tact and diplomacy your wife will agree. Be _active_. Leave no room for interlopers. Remind you wife regularly that there's nothing better in life than the undivided attention of her husband. Good luck.


----------



## CalBanker

azteca1986 said:


> Good for you. Personally, I'm a relentless optimist.
> 
> Everyone has to find their own path. I couldn't go down the CIA route either. If it ever came to that I think we'd be too far gone. Don't be complacent. This is a sure-fire marriage killer. Sometime in the near future you'll have to talk to your wife about the following (think of it as giving your marriage a slight course correction):
> 
> 1. There's no place for secrecy between spouses. It erodes the trust between you.
> 2. There's no room in a marriage for a third party.
> 
> Handled with tact and diplomacy your wife will agree. Be _active_. Leave no room for interlopers. Remind you wife regularly that there's nothing better in life than the undivided attention of her husband. Good luck.


I think you just put that perfectly!!!

I just want to assure, I'm not turning a blind eye. I just think that I may have been over thinking it. I am going to keep my eyes and ears open and I will still do a little snooping here and there and see if I can't see something. But I have so much more life to enjoy than to be worrying about this day in and day out if there really is nothing there.


----------



## BlueCalcite

azteca1986 said:


> Sometime in the near future you'll have to talk to your wife about the following (think of it as giving your marriage a slight course correction):
> 
> 1. There's no place for secrecy between spouses. It erodes the trust between you.
> 2. There's no room in a marriage for a third party.
> 
> Handled with tact and diplomacy your wife will agree. Be _active_. Leave no room for interlopers. Remind you wife regularly that there's nothing better in life than the undivided attention of her husband. Good luck.


Bringing these issues up with tact and diplomacy will be well-received by every remorseful, honest cheater. You'll bat a thousand if that's who you're married to.

If she happens to fall into the......95%?.....of cheaters who have no conscience, no guilt, and who covet secrecy, then you'll just be kicking the can down the road to deal with it another day with her in a more advantageous position.


----------



## sandc

Hoping for the best for you Cal. But keep this in mind, in a normal healthy marriage, there are no secrets. My wife and I openly share all our passwords to everything. Our lives are an open book to each other. Your lives should be open to each other as well. Once you marry you give up the right to a private life. I know some may disagree but that is my belief. Best of luck. I sincerely hope we don't hear from you again in six months telling us we were right. But if we are right, please do come back. We won't say "I told you so". We'll say, "I'm so sorry..."


----------



## badcompany

Check out my thread Cal, same thing.......something just wasn't right. I started digging deeper and the more I dug the more I found.
Same "none of your business" attitude you get from your W.
The GPS I planted in her car, as much as I hated to do it, showed it at the suspect OM's house for 2 hours before her evening shift on 10/3. There is as much technology for the cheater to use out there as there is for us to catch them. Your gut knows, don't ignore it.


----------



## azteca1986

CalBanker said:


> I just want to assure, I'm not turning a blind eye. I just think that I may have been over thinking it.


Good. Because the First Law of TAM is "Trust Your Gut". The Second Law of TAM is "Learn About Boundaries Super-Fast and Enforce Them"

Having a gut feeling, questionable behaviour with a phone and actually coming to TAM and starting a thread are the Unholy Trinity. Stay alert.



BlueCalcite said:


> she happens to fall into the......95%?.....of cheaters who have no conscience, no guilt, and who covet secrecy, then you'll just be kicking the can down the road to deal with it another day with her in a more advantageous position.


Perhaps. But yesterday OP thought that asking for a withheld password would drive his wife to another man. Today he's prepared to take her phone and demand her password. Which, to me, is progress.

I hope OP has a read around of some threads so he knows what he's dealing with and what to look out for.


----------



## Hope1964

There's no way I could get past that 'busted' comment by OM.


----------



## CalBanker

Hope1964 said:


> There's no way I could get past that 'busted' comment by OM.


I can understand that. And that was talked about at that time and she knew it was wrong and told me that it would stop. And part of me has to have some trust in my spouse. If I find more incriminating things, I will definitely move forward.

Maybe I do have blinders on, that very well may be the case.

But I don't mean this to hurt anyone at all, because I truly do appreciate the opinions and suggestions and I will definitely be talking about complete transparency and how I should be able to have the password to her email immediately. But in my opinion, people here have been hurt and hurt very badly, and I feel that your hurt is trying to get shoved down my throat and that no matter what is said, my wife is a cheater in your opinion. And as another poster said, I might be completely wrong and be back here in 6 months. But I can't live this CIA life, it is not me. I guess I'll just have to get smacked in the face about it.


----------



## BlueCalcite

CalBanker said:


> And part of me has to have some trust in my spouse.


Trust is earned. You trusted her, and then you caught her having inappropriate communications with another man. And then she refused to give you her e-mail password. She needs to earn your trust again, not demand it from you.



> If I find more incriminating things, I will definitely move forward.


How much more incriminating do you need than the OM (whether it's an EA of PA) referring to their actions as a "bustable" offense? You should ponder what sort of activities you could participate in with a married woman that would make you worried about being "busted".



> But in my opinion, people here have been hurt and hurt very badly, and I feel that your hurt is trying to get shoved down my throat and that no matter what is said, *my wife is a cheater in your opinion*.


You told us she was a cheater when you said you found inappropriate communications with another man. Even if it's just an EA, it's cheating.


----------



## CalBanker

BlueCalcite said:


> Trust is earned. You trusted her, and then you caught her having inappropriate communications with another man. And then she refused to give you her e-mail password. She needs to earn your trust again, not demand it from you.
> 
> 
> 
> How much more incriminating do you need than the OM (whether it's an EA of PA) referring to their actions as a "bustable" offense? You should ponder what sort of activities you could participate in with a married woman that would make you worried about being "busted".
> 
> 
> 
> You told us she was a cheater when you said you found inappropriate communications with another man. Even if it's just an EA, it's cheating.


I have never said that she refused to give me the password to her email. I haven't pressed for it at this point.

And when she was confronted about the original message that was found, I was told by her that is was wrong and that it was done. 

I'm not a bitter person at this point, maybe I will be later down the road. But things are great right now and I won't change that.


----------



## AMRAP

Cal, I don't know if someone else has mentioned this but if your wife has turned up the sex life she may be getting sexually excited by these secret emails. The result is great but the cause is the problem. She may be thinking about OM when she is getting wild with you. If that's going on she is likely getting more attached to this OM every day. When they finally do meet all that sexual energy will be directed to him.

There are many threads here that BS was getting great sex from their spouse as a result of a secret EA. Something to consider.


----------



## BlueCalcite

And in the unlikely event that she has nothing to hide, and she just refuses to give transparency as a matter of principle, then what does that say about her concern for you, if her right to secrecy for the sake of secrecy is more important than your right to feel secure in the strength of your marriage?


----------



## BlueCalcite

> I have never said that she refused to give me the password to her email. I haven't pressed for it at this point.





> Also, we got new cell phones with the capability to sync or personal emails to our phones, which is great. So I got mine up right away, but she doesn't do it. I asked her why and she said that she can't get it to work. So I asked to help her but *she wouldn't give me her yahoo account password* and just fought me that it doesn't work *and that she doesn't even use her personal email at all*. So I started to get a little paranoid and looked at her internet history and *found that she is using her yahoo email quite a bit and seeing that their are messages read and messages sent.*


----------



## Hope1964

Get this book and read it. Then present it to your wife when you talk to her about boundaries. This book is about affair proofing your marriage, about 'windows and walls' and boundaries, and about transparency. It is one of the best books there is about all this stuff. Seriously.

Dr. Shirley Glass - Introduction - NOT "Just Friends"


----------



## CalBanker

BlueCalcite said:


> And in the unlikely event that she has nothing to hide, and she just refuses to give transparency as a matter of principle, then what does that say about her concern for you, if her right to secrecy for the sake of secrecy is more important than your right to feel secure in the strength of your marriage?


I never said I was dropping the plan of grabbing her phone and requesting the password. If she won't give me transparency at that point, then their will be additional steps I will have to take at that time.

I have not done this yet, I need to find the right time so that I know that I will be strong if her answer should be different than what I think it will be.

I guess I may be wired a little differently than others here and I won't make rash rash decisions.


----------



## CalBanker

I'm sorry, what I meant by her not giving me her password was in requesting her password for transparency. That was just a trigger for me, I was trying to help her and she didn't want to give me the password while we were working with her phone to sync her email.


----------



## anchorwatch

Not all of us are bitter from infidelity, but we do know the pitfalls of relationships. At least take the time to read and ponder what the experts have to say. You sound like a intelligent man, wouldn't you read something that could only increase the bonds of you relationship?

Here 

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage eBook: Willard F. Jr. Harley


Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

Be well.


----------



## Hope1964

I also get that you think your situation is the exception to the rule, and that's fine. Many of us thought the same thing when it happened to us. I also understand that you want to discount much of the advice because of this. Again, that is perfectly natural. The chances that your wife has not cheated in any way are very slim, but I guess there is that slim chance. 

But the fact that you hesitate to demand transparency even after you did confront her about the 'busted' comment and her admitting it was wrong and would stop says to me that you are really just trying to pretend that none of this is happening.


----------



## CalBanker

anchorwatch said:


> Not all of us are bitter from infidelity, but we do know the pitfalls of relationships. At least take the time to read and ponder what the experts have to say.
> 
> Here
> 
> His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage Fifteenth Anniversary Edition:Amazon:Books
> 
> 
> Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


I sorry anchor, I don't mean the bitter part towards anyone in particular. 

But thank you for those links, I will definitely read them.


----------



## Hope1964

CalBanker said:


> I'm sorry, what I meant by her not giving me her password was in requesting her password for transparency. That was just a trigger for me, I was trying to help her and she didn't want to give me the password while we were working with her phone to sync her email.


Hairsplitting, dude.


----------



## CalBanker

Hope1964 said:


> I also get that you think your situation is the exception to the rule, and that's fine. Many of us thought the same thing when it happened to us. I also understand that you want to discount much of the advice because of this. Again, that is perfectly natural. The chances that your wife has not cheated in any way are very slim, but I guess there is that slim chance.
> 
> But the fact that you hesitate to demand transparency even after you did confront her about the 'busted' comment and her admitting it was wrong and would stop says to me that you are really just trying to pretend that none of this is happening.


I am going to demand transparency, I just need to make sure it is the right time so that I have the strength. And I don't want to confront until I'm ready.


----------



## harrybrown

Have her go with you on the trip.


----------



## Chaparral

I think you should slow down. You have a problem but you are working into a frenzy.

Why don't you get another home computer with a good keylogger already put on it.

Use a couple of vars in her car and somewhere in your home while you are gone.

As a last resort, then bring up the busred remark , how more and more it is bothering you and then ask for total transparency.

At this point anything, including burner phones, or nothing may be going on.

Get the two books linked too below before you go off half co*ked.


----------



## CalBanker

Hope1964 said:


> Hairsplitting, dude.


I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't have come to this site if I wasn't ready for this. But others have been supportive and understand that maybe I'm just not ready. Some have said that I am probably wrong and might be back here in 6 months, and that truly may be the case and that they would support me then and just be understanding. But to me, others are dead set on me divorcing her and it better be now. I'm just not like that, I make calculated decisions, not rash ones.


----------



## CalBanker

harrybrown said:


> Have her go with you on the trip.


I am thinking I'm going to have that happen!


----------



## BlueCalcite

Hope1964 said:


> Hairsplitting, dude.


And it's not that she refused to give it to you at the time. It's that the reason she gave you for not wanting your help syncing her e-mail and phone was immediately discovered to have been a lie.

I was just like you for my entire marriage -- often witnessing strange behavior, but always explaining it away and never digging. Then out of nowhere my wife left and filed for D, and for the past 4 months I've been doing nothing but uncovering the magnitude of her lies (especially financially, since that leaves a paper trail). But all of the red flags of cheating that I was blind to are now proving to be difficult to tie together into undeniable proof. I wish I had the knowledge of TAM years ago.


----------



## BlueCalcite

CalBanker said:


> But to me, others are dead set on me divorcing her and it better be now. I'm just not like that, I make calculated decisions, not rash ones.


Nobody's telling you to divorce her now. Divorce is a process, not an act. What people are telling you is that the threat of a divorce (maybe even the filing of the paperwork) if she can't agree to total transparency, especially after having already been caught once, is often the best way to SAVE your marriage. If she desires to be married to you, the threat of a divorce is often the consequence she needs to be afraid of to make her realize that flirting with other men isn't OK in a marriage.

People rarely change their behavior without experiencing consequences. And if you read around TAM enough, you'll find that women usually grow to disrespect their man more and more over time as they realize that they can get away with anything.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: Re: Hoping I'm just being paranoid*



CalBanker said:


> I sorry anchor, I don't mean the bitter part towards anyone in particular.
> 
> But thank you for those links, I will definitely read them.


NP, we're here to help you see all sides. Fixed the links too. Enjoy the reads.


----------



## azteca1986

Firstly, Cal, the reason you're no doubt feeling a little brow-beaten right now is that far from being bitter (I know you aplogised for that) the people posting on your thread do so, from compassion. They want to spare you going through what they did.

Metaphorically they're all shouting "Don't go into the cellar!"

We've all seen this movie before (some have lived it). We know what awaits you in the cellar.



anchorwatch said:


> WHY WOULD SHE NOT GIVE YOU ACCESS???
> 
> WHY ARE SECRETS ALLOWED IN YOU MARRIAGE?
> 
> This type of secret would cause irreparable damage in my marriage. If my wife did this, we'd move to D with no problem. That is our boundary on this issue. She knows it and she expects it. As I do also, with her.
> 
> I guess it's all what boundaries that are allowed in your marriage.


Now, my marriage is exactly the same as anchorwatch's. We've mutually agreed that passwords and secrecy have no place in our marriage. There's no room for third party's either. I'm not interested in hearing "But he's just a friend". It's a deal breaker. This is why I wouldn't even bother with surveillance, as if I had to resort to that I'm already in a marriage I want no part of. "Give me the password or we talk divorce". 

OP is not there but in the last 24 hours he's at least come to realise his marriage is under threat. He's agreed that there is no room for secrecy in a marriage. So, what's he to do?

*Electronic surveillance*
*VARs :* As far as we know the inappropriate relationship is happening on yahoo and facebook. VARs are no use in this situation (I stand to be corrected)
*Keylogger :* There is no PC at home, so even if he manages to get one on her phone there's no place for it to report to (Maybe his phone, idk. Again, I stand to be corrected)

I know this route is the preferred choice of many and I agree in most circumstances. Weightlifter has dedicated his time and expertise (I raise a glass of Rioja to you, my friend) to help posters on TAM. I'm not sure if it'll psy dividends in this case.

*CalBanker's suggested strategy*
Now, Cal, has repeatedly told us he doesn't feel ready to confront. He knows he should. He knows he will. Great!

My suggestion:

1. Prepare the ground : Read Dr. Shirley Glass's - Not "Just Friends" with your wife as suggested by Hope1964.
2. If the penny hasn't dropped offer all your passwords to your wife
3. Ask your wife to reciprocate. Insist. Refer to the relationship expert. Don't take "No" for an answer. By this stage you will be confident to ask and your wife will know what a refusal really means (see anchorwatch's post above)
4. Achieve all this before you go on your trip. Better yet take her with you.

Prepare yourself. Get that book. Don't do anything if you don't feel you can pull it off. Frankly, having walked your wife through the need for transparency, if she still refuses to be open with her passwords, I'd file as she'd be admitting there are things on her phone she does not want you to see. Ask yourself, Cal, if that's your idea of marriage.


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## CalBanker

I really do like how you lay it out Azteca. I will definitely keep TAM informed of my decisions and what occurs, because I may need more guidance and their are good people here that like you said, do care and are just looking out for me.


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## TRy

azteca1986 said:


> the people posting on your thread do so, from compassion. They want to spare you going through what they did.
> 
> Metaphorically they're all shouting "Don't go into the cellar!"
> 
> We've all seen this movie before (some have lived it). We know what awaits you in the cellar.


 This text should be posted as part of the newbie thread. The sad part is, that like in the movies, they usually end up going into the cellar.



azteca1986 said:


> *CalBanker's suggested strategy*
> Now, Cal, has repeatedly told us he doesn't feel ready to confront. He knows he should. He knows he will. Great!
> 
> My suggestion:
> 
> 1. Prepare the ground : Read Dr. Shirley Glass's - Not "Just Friends" with your wife as suggested by Hope1964.
> 2. If the penny hasn't dropped offer all your passwords to your wife
> 3. Ask your wife to reciprocate. Insist. Refer to the relationship expert. Don't take "No" for an answer. By this stage you will be confident to ask and your wife will know what a refusal really means (see anchorwatch's post above)
> 4. Achieve all this before you go on your trip. Better yet take her with you.
> 
> Prepare yourself. Get that book. Don't do anything if you don't feel you can pull it off. Frankly, having walked your wife through the need for transparency, if she still refuses to be open with her passwords, I'd file as she'd be admitting there are things on her phone she does not want you to see. Ask yourself, Cal, if that's your idea of marriage.


 Great advice.


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## weightlifter

Aztec. Women talk to friends about their affairs. (Many here)
At least one talked to herself about it. Rdmu wife.

Now my nature is evidence gathering for proof.
The other road is confront and demand.

OP appears to be trying to walk between both roads which is very unlikely to work.

Too bad there isnt a way to get her to use the computer one... With a keylog on it. Didnt rosie1 use the browser itself to get the pw?


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## phillybeffandswiss

alte Dame said:


> Yes, defending your marriage is worth a little egg on your face. Don't let the fear of unknowns paralyze you. Your questions are reasonable.


You know the funny thing about egg on your face? It can be easily wiped away. 

Loss of trust is a stain that can take years to clean up, if ever.



> Electronic surveillance
> VARs : As far as we know the inappropriate relationship is happening on yahoo and facebook. VARs are no use in this situation (I stand to be corrected)


Hahaha, IDK how many threads where it was only "Facebook, text, online" and then the VAR picked up something unexpected.


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## azteca1986

weightlifter said:


> Now my nature is evidence gathering for proof.
> The other road is confront and demand.


weightlifter, my brother, we're tackling the same problem from two different directions. We want the same outcome. I'm merely providing a _possible_ way forward. Shoot it down. You or anyone else, please, think of a more effective way that fits with OP and his resources and capabilities. The outcome is the most important thing.


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## Remains

CalBanker said:


> I am going to demand transparency, I just need to make sure it is the right time so that I have the strength. And I don't want to confront until I'm ready.


If you have to wait til the right time....that is a problem there in and of itself. If you cannot talk to your wife without fear, that is a big huge ginormous massive stupendous red flag. 

You are stalling the obvious. Blaming the advice on bitter posters. Telling those who have seen this scenario over and over again that yours is different. That somehow, with all you have told us, we have heard and read wrong. 

We are not a bunch of bitter folk (Some are). We are a bunch of people who have been there, done that. and spent a long time learning off ours, others threads and situations. 

I spent 6 months (and actually more, but 6 months for me to really realise) researching infidelity intensensely because my man was gaslighting me. He had me thinking I was crazy, used every trick in the book, and I believed him for a moment (about 6 months), neglected my kids, all I could think of was infidelity over that time. I was obsessed. And rightly so. 

I was told it was all me that was causing the problems (no biggy, told that all my life) and o had to do intensive research of infidelity, projection, manipulation, to finally stick up for myself and stands my ground. And this wasn't just my man, it helped me in other areas of my life. 

Don't think that we are just a swathe of 'cheating bastards, punish them' brigade. Read Rosie's thread 'there is something creepy happening in my home'. Or something like that.That will show you what a remorsefiul spouse looks like. And a full on discussion on spouse bashing, or not.


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## CalBanker

So maybe I am way off, but I asked for the passwords to her yahoo and facebook accounts this weekend. She looked at me a little funny, got a little mad and then gave them to me and let me go right into them and look through them. Nothing there! She was upset that I needed to do that, but she understood where I was coming from after a little bit of talking about it. I had already written my passwords down for her and asked for total transparency and she agreed. Thought she would be cold for the rest of the weekend, but she wasn't at all. Then yesterday asked me to leave work early and meet her at home before we had to get the kids. So I'm thinking that I was just being paranoid. But I will every once in awhile keep my eyes open.


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## mahike

I hope you are right but pay attention to the red flags. My wife was really good about deleting things and getting them out of the trash. Best of luck


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## CalBanker

I understand. But through my years with my wife, I was expecting a fight if their was something to be concerned about, but their really wasn't a fight.


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## anchorwatch

Good outcome, Cal. I hope it was quality time before the children got picked up. Hope you started HNHN and Not "Just Friends". 

It didn't go the way you expected. You expected blow back. Why? Is she not used to you defining boundaries? Have you ever mate guarded before? When you do those things it displays you care about the relationship. The other reads I gave you are for the marriage, here's one for you... No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Glover.


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## badmemory

CalBanker said:


> So maybe I am way off, but I asked for the passwords to her yahoo and facebook accounts this weekend. She looked at me a little funny, got a little mad and then gave them to me and let me go right into them and look through them. Nothing there! She was upset that I needed to do that, but she understood where I was coming from after a little bit of talking about it. I had already written my passwords down for her and asked for total transparency and she agreed. Thought she would be cold for the rest of the weekend, but she wasn't at all. Then yesterday asked me to leave work early and meet her at home before we had to get the kids. So I'm thinking that I was just being paranoid. But I will every once in awhile keep my eyes open.


Good for you Calbanker. You obviously approached her the right way and got a good result. But more than that, you established reasonable boundaries in your marriage.

The next time she pushes those boundaries, you should be more confident in communicating with her about it. But once you draw that line in the sand - keep it there.

Also, you now have a arsenal of information you can use if you ever feel it necessary to do surveillance. 

Good luck to you.


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## CalBanker

anchorwatch said:


> Good outcome, Cal. I hope it was quality time before the children for pockd up. Hope you started HNHN and Not "Just Friends".
> 
> It dIdn't go the way you expected. You expected blow back. Why? Is she not used to you defining boundries? Have you ever mate guarded before? When you do those things it displays you care about the relationship. The other reads I gave you are for the marriage, here's one for you. No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Glover.


It was very good quality time!!!! 

Their has definitely been boundaries, just maybe not extreme boundaries. I've never had to ask for passwords for her emails and facebook, so that was something new. 

Again, I'm going to keep my eyes open, but I won't turn into CIA mode......if I have to go to that level, then I feel that it isn't right anyway.

But hopefully I was just being paranoid. Because having the wife email me and persuade me into leaving work early to meet her in our bedroom was definitely very very nice!!!


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## CalBanker

badmemory said:


> Good for you Calbanker. You obviously approached her the right way and got a good result. But more than that, you established reasonable boundaries in your marriage.
> 
> The next time she pushes those boundaries, you should be more confident in communicating with her about it. But once you draw that line in the sand - keep it there.
> 
> Also, you now have a arsenal of information you can use if you ever feel it necessary to do surveillance.
> 
> Good luck to you.


That is exactly right....that line in the sand stays there!


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## bartendersfriend

Good for you, Cal. I think you have an opportunity to take your marriage to a new level of honesty/openness. The attention, caring, and trust may even lead to more days like Monday afternoon! It is nice to see threads take a positive turn around here.


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## CalBanker

bartendersfriend said:


> Good for you, Cal. I think you have an opportunity to take your marriage to a new level of honesty/openness. The attention, caring, and trust may even lead to more days like Monday afternoon! It is nice to see threads take a positive turn around here.


I agree, I really think the additional transparency will really liven things up! 

I just want to thank everyone here for ideas, thoughts, prayers and such.


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## sandc

Good outcome.

Now for the cloud around this silver lining, be on the look out for another email account. But other WS's have used sex to make their BS feel like everything is fine. Not saying that's happening here, just saying it has happened to others. I just want you to be aware as you move forward.


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## F-102

CalBanker said:


> I understand. But through my years with my wife, I was expecting a fight if their was something to be concerned about, but their really wasn't a fight.


I know that this may be wishful thinking, and a bit premature, but...

...is it possible that she now LIKES what she sees?


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## CalBanker

sandc said:


> Good outcome.
> 
> Now for the cloud around this silver lining, be on the look out for another email account. But other WS's have used sex to make their BS feel like everything is fine. Not saying that's happening here, just saying it has happened to others. I just want you to be aware as you move forward.


I could see some sex as being a cover, but going out of her way for it and request that I leave work, just don't see it. 

I am going to live in the moment that is going on right now and really enjoy my marriage and try to let the thoughts of the CIA in me not take over. I feel I could ruin my marriage too by being so covert.


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## CalBanker

F-102 said:


> I know that this may be wishful thinking, and a bit premature, but...
> 
> ...is it possible that she now LIKES what she sees?


Meaning I am the man that she wants in her life? I hope so!!!! :smthumbup:


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## badcompany

That's good to hear, and yes it comes across being more assertive and might make her respect you more.
I got blowback every time and most here on TAM know where it lead to.


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## Remains

Great to hear that result. Really good! Keep up the keeping up of appropriate boundaries!


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## TRy

CalBanker said:


> But hopefully I was just being paranoid. Because having the wife email me and persuade me into leaving work early to meet her in our bedroom was definitely very very nice!!!


 If you stop it early, set boundaries, and then draw a line in the sand to support those boundaries, then nothing happens, and you are called "paranoid". If you wait until it is too late to stop it, then you are called the "betrayed". Paranoid just means that you paid attention to your gut and did something about it. If it also means that your wife looks at you with new respect, and offers you more sex, so be it.


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## CalBanker

TRy said:


> If you stop it early, set boundaries, and then draw a line in the sand to support those boundaries, then nothing happens, and you are called "paranoid". If you wait until it is too late to stop it, then you are called the "betrayed". Paranoid just means that you paid attention to your gut and did something about it. If it also means that your wife looks at you with new respect, and offers you more sex, so be it.


Interesting way to put it, never thought of it that way.


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## anchorwatch

TRy said:


> If you stop it early, set boundaries, and then draw a line in the sand to support those boundaries, then nothing happens, and you are called "paranoid". If you wait until it is too late to stop it, then you are called the "betrayed". Paranoid just means that you paid attention to your gut and did something about it. If it also means that your wife looks at you with new respect, and offers you more sex, so be it.





CalBanker said:


> Interesting way to put it, never thought of it that way.


It's called a display of high value. She saw you will not shy away from protecting your marriage and her. This type of behavior, on your part (mate guarding), raises her sexual attraction for you. It's primal. If it interest you, here brother member Athol Kay explains it in his book and blog Married Man Sex Life. It may be over simplified, but it's something every man should read...


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