# "Getting it"



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I know I said that I wasn't going to start another thread, but I wanted to try to get something off my chest. Many of the posters know of my story, but I'll briefly summarize it. 
About 5 years ago, I discovered my wife had a brief (one month) affair with a co-worker. I immediately divorced her. 2 1/2 years after the divorce, we tried to reconcile, but I didn't love her so we called it quits. I had met another woman and am in love with her, so I couldn't.
Recently, My ex and I were talking and she again asked if we could try again. I told her no, and she asked why I couldn't forgive her? ( I do not understand why she cannot let me go) I know she has done a GREAT job, changing herself, and maturing as a person, and I really do forgive her, but forgiveness is not enough. 
The main problem seems to be that she has never truly "gotten it" as in understanding the damage the affair did to me and to our marriage. 
In thinking about this, I finally realized that I do not think it is possible for a WS to EVER truly KNOW what their cheating has done. I don't think any of them ever really "get it". UNLESS it happens to them, at a later date.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Please understand, that I'm not saying that they are not remorseful or that they are not willing to do all in their power to remedy the situation. I'm saying that they cannot ever understand fully.


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

Once broken, forever broken, right? I understand. Dealing with it on a day-to-day basis.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

IDK, maybe it is, "Once broken, forever changed".


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

yes I wonder if my WW really "gets it".

and I think the only way she would is if happened to her and I can't do that


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> In thinking about this, I finally realized that I do not think it is possible for a WS to EVER truly KNOW what their cheating has done. I don't think any of them ever really "get it". UNLESS it happens to them, at a later date.


So, kind of like a "fog" that prevents them from really seeing the damage left behind? 

I joke! But I agree with you completely that it is extremely rare for someone who hasn't been betrayed to really know what it feels like to be betrayed.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I think that two issues make it impossible for the WS to get it. One is that you cannot undo an affair. Even if you reconcile, it is always in the room with you, it has become part of you. The other is that the WS gave away something that rightly belonged to you, whether it be their body, but more importantly, part of their mind and soul that should have been yours.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Lon said:


> So, kind of like a "fog" that prevents them from really seeing the damage left behind?
> 
> I joke! But I agree with you completely that it is extremely rare for someone who hasn't been betrayed to really know what it feels like to be betrayed.


 No offense taken. No, not like the "fog'' but more like a disease. If you have gone through it, you build up an immunity, if you haven't gone through it, you cannot know what it feels like. I lost a couple of toes in an accident a few months back, and the nurse was telling me how I felt. She still has all of her toes, so how does she know?:scratchhead:


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Its that way with my xW. She never once apologized. She still plays games when it comes to the kids. Some people truly will never get it. Personally I have little patience for cheaters these days. I found in my life its not my job to help someone else be a better person. Its my job to take care of myself and my kids. 


Good for you for Divorcing her. I think I would just be firm and wish her the best. No sense having her in your life to take a chance on possibly messing up a future relationship with someone else. 

I might suggest you direct her to this site. Let her see the damage people go through and maybe that might help her to better understand but above and beyond that I would distance myself from her. 

Clay


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, Clay, I'm sorry you didn't get an apology, but even if you did, and even if she (or any WS) did everything to make it up, it will always be there, with you.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I believe it is because the level of intellect necessary to understand the severe damage caused by an A is missing in any WS. If it weren't, they would not have had the A in the first place. So, absent a *very* rare epiphany, they will never see the depth of damage they caused even if they do tons of heavy lifting and are remorseful, it's just not in them. And yes the A is a life changer, it can never be the same after that, the elephant may get smaller in time but he's always in the room.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

I agree, until you experience it, it's hard to understand the depth of the pain caused by betrayal. You really have to have a high degree of empathy to even come close. Let's face it, if the WS was empathetic, the affair wouldn't have happened. 

Then there denial as a way of protecting ego side of it. By admitting to the pain they caused, the have accept the horror of what they did. Easier to bury it in a hole and hope it stays buried.


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

Acoa said:


> I agree, until you experience it, it's hard to understand the depth of the pain caused by betrayal. You really have to have a high degree of empathy to even come close. Let's face it, if the WS was empathetic, the affair wouldn't have happened.
> 
> Then there denial as a way of protecting ego side of it. By admitting to the pain they caused, the have accept the horror of what they did. Easier to bury it in a hole and hope it stays buried.


A drunken ONS can be understood. But lta and empathy are terms from different dictionaries.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Some WS's may understand but others will not. I think it just depends on the person. 

Any adult should understand why you don't want to reconcile but understanding the level of betrayal is different. 

Someone mentioned being sick or having a disease. Not everyone will handle a cancer diagnosis or scare the same. Some will be grateful if they survive and change their lifestyle and others will resume smoking as soon as the cancer treatment is over and successful. 

Even if there is s revenge affair, it might not have the same affect on the WS. 

People are just different. 

I just saw a news story on someone burning a dog alive. Who on earth could burn a dog alive?? Someone did!

It takes all kinds....

It's great you moved on and found a new love. Hopefully your WS learned something or it will sink in one day. Maybe not.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Many astute observations here. I think it's beyond the ability of many to have the ability to relate or empathize with the deepest implications of betrayal. Hell, it's hard enough to wrap my mind around it and I was the one who was betrayed!

That being said, I am certain there are exceptions (probably rare) to what has been said in some of the above posts. I feel confident there is at least one that I know of here on TAM who is an exception. 

I would be cautious in making blanket statements about ALL former waywards so as not to marginalize them here on TAM because some of them have valuable contributions for us. 

Many of us have been so badly maimed by betrayal that it becomes much safer to adopt a policy of not ever taking a chance on a betrayer again. Rightfully so in most cases. 

But ... there are many betrayed out there who have forgiven, healed, and lived happily ever after with a repentant former wayward, we just don't hear much about them on TAM. I don't think I have the fortitude, bravery, stupidity? to be one of them. Nevertheless, they are out there and we would be in error to disregard them. 

I do believe in repentance, forgiveness and redemption of some betrayers. Not in all, but only in a very few who actually "get it". It's rare and when it does occur it should not be discounted.


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## rustytheboyrobot (Nov 20, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I believe it is because the level of intellect necessary to understand the severe damage caused by an A is missing in any WS. If it weren't, they would not have had the A in the first place. So, absent a *very* rare epiphany, they will never see the depth of damage they caused even if they do tons of heavy lifting and are remorseful, it's just not in them. And yes the A is a life changer, it can never be the same after that, the elephant may get smaller in time but he's always in the room.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. My WW was completely unable to understand my pain or reactions. She was shocked. I read her e-mail to one of her two OM where she talked about how shocked she was at my reaction. At my anger.

Something very important is missing inside of her soul. I wish I would have seen that sooner.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

> I had met another woman and am in love with her, so I couldn't.


Rookie, I'm curious and you don't have to answer because it's a bit of a thread jack. 

How long were you trying to reconcile with your wife? Were you in "no contact" with this woman the entire time while trying to reconcile with your wife? If you were really "no contact", this woman hadn't moved on thinking you were getting back together with your wife? I guess I don't understand what was keeping her around.

I remember reading your posts about your wife and reconciling and you really seemed into her but I guess you were actually in love with another woman.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey Rookie. I see you got banned today and I hope it is not a long or, shudder, perma ban.

I wish you could communicate to your xw what it is that you need her to understand. There are some books out there that can help a ws understand what they have done.

I have no logic for this statement but I for some reason wished that you two could make it.

I am really heartbroken for you and your family. I am usually pretty balanced on the D or R issue and I really hate infidelity so I am not a "Marriage at all costs guy".

There is something tragic about your permanent separation.

I have fully read your story and I know what she did and I am enraged and hurt for you and have sympathetic fury towards her stupidly throwing your lives away.

Just an unshakable gut feeling I have that you should be together.

Maybe I have lost my mind. It won't go away though. I can't say this about anyone else on this forum either.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Rookie, I know we haven't always seen eye to eye and I know you cannot officially come to TAM. But I offer this post and thread written by my mentor Beowulf that might address much of what you wrote in your opening salvo. BTW, Beowulf was banned as well. Like you he is very passionate about his views.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40052-understanding-pain.html

_I know this post is not going to sit well with most WS here but in my opinion there seems to be a lot of difficulty understanding the pain the BS goes through after an affair is discovered. I know the WS is dealing with a lot of intense emotions such as guilt, shame, remorse, regret. But there seems to be a definite disconnect that I thought I'd address. While I am not the most intelligent or articulate person here on TAM I thought I’d try to describe the way my wife and I have come to understand the difference and how we related it to each other.

A person who has an affair does indeed have to deal with a lot of pain in the aftermath. They have to reevaluate their own identity and who they really are and their willingness to cause so much suffering to their loved ones. The statements “it’s just not in me to cheat” and “I could never do that” are in direct conflict with their actions. They have to come to the painful conclusion that they indeed are not the absolute good person they thought they were. They have to realize that there was something in them that allowed them to be selfish and cruel to the person or people they most cherished. And the scariest part is that they have to realize that since they’ve done it once they can do it again. Those self examinations are extremely difficult but necessary if the WS wants to become the person they always thought they already were and hope to actually become.

Here is where it gets hard for as much difficulty the WS has to go through they truly cannot comprehend the pain and anguish the BS has to endure. I want you to understand and remember two words. These are two very important words and it will help you to understand what your spouse is probably feeling even if they can’t express it. When they discovered your affair…YOU DIED! Let me say it again…YOU DIED! The person that your husband/wife married is gone forever. Think about a time when you lost someone really close to you. A father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, or spouse. Think of the grief that you had to deal with. That is the same grief that your spouse has to deal with each and every day. Every day that they wake up after D-Day you die again and they feel it again and it's just as intense. The feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, yes…anger (why did you leave me?) Can you even imagine the pain that he/she is going through? Probably not. Because you are the one that had died and they are the one that is left to pick up the pieces of a shattered life that was taken from. They are the ones that are left to deal with the loss of a loved one.

But here is the sick part. You are still here; but you aren’t! You are a doppelganger, a clone, an evil twin. You are the one that killed your spouse’s cherished love. You took the love of his/her life away forever violently and without mercy. You stabbed them, mutilated them, burned them and ultimately buried them. You are the monster that has torn up a family. You are the monster that has committed such a senseless heinous act. You are a murderer! And here's the part that most WS miss. You were aware of your actions. You stalked your husband/wife's spouse. You planned how to do it. You conspired with another murderer (the OM/OW) and you finally struck without warning and without honor. The BS was left in shock and dismay watching their cherished lover, friend, partner, confidant bleed to death in the street. They felt hopeless and helpless as the person they loved most in the world was taken from them. Their world...you...died that day.

And you want the grieving person to forgive you. Love you. Stay with you. Think about that for a minute. You, the pod person, the evil clone, the look alike murderer that destroyed the one person in life that your spouse cherished beyond all time and space want the sorrow filled, grief stricken, angry and injured beyond belief person to LOVE YOU? They had this involuntarily inflicted upon them. They had no choice. Only pain. And now you want them to choose to love you. Can you imagine going up to the person that murdered your loved one and choosing to love them?

Now you have a little glimpse into the psyche of your betrayed spouse. You also know why I always tell people that the old marriage is dead and the couple must learn to love each other as new…if they can. It is also why I recommend the betrayed spouse read “Just Let Them Go” even if they want to reconcile. Because you truly have to let the cheating spouse go in order to learn to hopefully love the new version of your husband/wife. It’s hard and it’s painful and it can only be done if the WS does everything to make the BS fall in love with them again._


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## rustytheboyrobot (Nov 20, 2013)

Wow BFree it was Beowulf who originally wrote that? I think about that post all the time. Even though I was surely drunk and in so much pain I was barely aware of the world at the time I read it. I even made a post referencing it earlier today. That is an all time hall of fame post right there. I'm going to save it to my computer so I can remember.

What ever happened to Beowulf?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: "Getting it"*



rustytheboyrobot said:


> Wow BFree it was Beowulf who originally wrote that? I think about that post all the time. Even though I was surely drunk and in so much pain I was barely aware of the world at the time I read it. I even made a post referencing it earlier today. That is an all time hall of fame post right there. I'm going to save it to my computer so I can remember.
> 
> What ever happened to Beowulf?


I love Beowulf. He's my mentor, my friend and probably the kindest most selfless soul I've ever encountered. It was Beowulf who helped lift me up out of my drug and alcohol abuse. It was thorough Beowulf that I met my wife. He saved my life and I can never ever repay him for all he's done for me. But Beowulf is a very passionate man and a loyal friend. He felt some of his friends here on TAM were not being treated fairly. He protested vehemently and in doing so incurred a deserved ban. That would have been the end of it but when his ban was over he publicly chastised the TAM administration. He deeply regrets what happened and has apologized. What was probably not known then by many and certainly not by any here on TAM was that his wife Morrigan was dealing with some serious health issues related to a brain tumor. This eventually led to a stroke and we almost lost her. I think it was the stress of Morrigan's medical situation that eventually got to him and he just temporarily blew a gasket. He was and still is perma banned.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: "Getting it"*



rustytheboyrobot said:


> Wow BFree it was Beowulf who originally wrote that? I think about that post all the time. Even though I was surely drunk and in so much pain I was barely aware of the world at the time I read it. I even made a post referencing it earlier today. That is an all time hall of fame post right there. I'm going to save it to my computer so I can remember.
> 
> What ever happened to Beowulf?


I don't know if I ever really read that quote from Beowulf. Wow powerful stuff, it hits very close and I almost shed a year for the first time in a long while.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Rookie's ban has nothing to do with this thread.

It will last two weeks.

I think Rookie's wife reconnected with him. She stayed single for a long time, going to IC and stuff if I remember correctly. Rookie dated.

Sometimes the WS figures that because they have children or a history, they remain connected. The affair was an aberration. MattMatt's wife's reasoning. The adultery is not permanent betrayal but a vacation from fidelity.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Well I guess my questions won't be answered for two weeks, lol.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> Well I guess my questions won't be answered for two weeks, lol.


Ban #1 was for debating of ways to beat up the OM.
Ban #2 was for the inviting WS thread when it got out of hand
This is #3. Don't count on him being back, many times #3 is permanent.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The moderator said it was just two weeks.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Betrayal is in a way just the same as other "big" events that happens to a person. It's impossible for somebody else to "get it" unless they have been in your shoes.

For instance, if you have been in a war it is impossible to "get that" for your spouce if your W/H haven't alse been in a war.

It's the same if you loose a family member, performe infront of 10000 enthusiastic people, have a child, or for the more mundane had dinner at a 3 star guide michelin restaurant when your spouce have only had prefab or fast food.

It is also very difficult to "get it" entirely even if you have expereinced it. Everybody have a different emotional attachement to things. I'm sure beeing betrayed by somebody you love very much is different to being betrayed by somebody you have lost your love for.

It's sad but just the way it is. The only thing we can do is to compare it with emotions we got from other events and try to get as close as we think. Sadly ther is not much else we can do.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

I think it's important to distinguish between numerous "small" betrayals, which cumulatively can erode or destroy one spouses trust and emotional attachment to the other spouse, and the massive betrayal of infidelity. The big difference between the two, even if they both end up destroying trust, attachment, and love, is the trauma associated with infidelity. The betrayal from the affair is sudden, usually not anticipated or even imagined beforehand, and massive - it breaks the trust and connection between the BS and WS suddenly, violently, and oftentimes completely. The emotional trauma and stress caused by this violent and shocking betrayal causes the BS to suffer very real symptoms of traumatic stress that can be crippling, and may take years to fully heal.

By contrast, smaller, more mundane betrayals, such as one spouse not keeping their promise to get something done on time, or forgetting an anniversary, or saying something hurtful, etc., do not at any point cause the emotional trauma of an exposed affair or similar massive betrayal - even though cumulatively such smaller betrayals can destroy a marriage just as effectively as an affair if the attachment injuries caused by the smaller betrayals aren't healed in a timely fashion as they happen.

So while a WS can rightfully claim that they were also betrayed by their BS, many times over the years, which killed their love and connection with the BS (if such betrayals actuallly happened, of course), they really have no idea what the emotional trauma resulting from their affair feels like or how it overwhelmingly affects the BS's state of mind, mood, and focus, and how disabling it can be. The WS can say they are repelled or annoyed by the BS's uncontrolled mood swings or their hypervigilance, and it's likely because they have no empathy for the BS, thinking the BS's feelings of betrayal are just like their own, only differing in their magnitude.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Hey Rookie. I see you got banned today and I hope it is not a long or, shudder, perma ban.
> 
> I wish you could communicate to your xw what it is that you need her to understand. There are some books out there that can help a ws understand what they have done.
> 
> ...


Me too


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Rookie, I'm curious and you don't have to answer because it's a bit of a thread jack.
> 
> How long were you trying to reconcile with your wife? Were you in "no contact" with this woman the entire time while trying to reconcile with your wife? If you were really "no contact", this woman hadn't moved on thinking you were getting back together with your wife? I guess I don't understand what was keeping her around.
> 
> I remember reading your posts about your wife and reconciling and you really seemed into her but I guess you were actually in love with another woman.


I had the same question


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

In my opinion I don't believe a WS will fully "get it". I know my WW will never fully "get it". This isn't to say that R is impossible. I have tried to imagine what my WW is going through but I'm unable to do so. Unless you are the betrayed spouse will you ever fully understand. I know of co-workers who have been through infidelity but I never understood fully until it happened to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I think the OP is spot on - very few will ever get it. Why should they get it - I didn't get it untill it happened to me. I will even go so far as to say, that some WS won't get it even if it happens to them. Some people seem to believe that it's just part of life, that it's to be expected in a relationship. You know; everybody does it, right? So how should they ever be able to get it.


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## dkphap13 (Oct 21, 2014)

I believe you are right I didn't get it when I cheated on my first wife with my 2nd. It was only after my 2nd wife cheated on me that it made me realize how deeply I had hurt my first wife. Yes did oppoligize with great regret to all parties involved but only after I was cheated on.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

cpacan said:


> I think the OP is spot on - very few will ever get it. Why should they get it - I didn't get it untill it happened to me. *I will even go so far as to say, that some WS won't get it even if it happens to them. Some people seem to believe that it's just part of life, that it's to be expected in a relationship*. You know; everybody does it, right? So how should they ever be able to get it.


Yeah, I think for some WS they really think "what is there to get?"


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I know I said that I wasn't going to start another thread, but I wanted to try to get something off my chest. Many of the posters know of my story, but I'll briefly summarize it.
> About 5 years ago, I discovered my wife had a brief (one month) affair with a co-worker. I immediately divorced her. 2 1/2 years after the divorce, we tried to reconcile, but I didn't love her so we called it quits. I had met another woman and am in love with her, so I couldn't.
> Recently, My ex and I were talking and she again asked if we could try again. I told her no, and she asked why I couldn't forgive her? ( I do not understand why she cannot let me go) I know she has done a GREAT job, changing herself, and maturing as a person, and I really do forgive her, but forgiveness is not enough.
> The main problem seems to be that she has never truly "gotten it" as in understanding the damage the affair did to me and to our marriage.
> In thinking about this, I finally realized that I do not think it is possible for a WS to EVER truly KNOW what their cheating has done. I don't think any of them ever really "get it". UNLESS it happens to them, at a later date.


Maybe you're doing her a disservice. You say she's worked on herself, done a great job of that, matured as a person, but she's realized now what she's lost, that's a man with integrity.

You divorced her asap after you found out. Didn't reconcile for reconciling sake and cut the cord when you realized it wasn't going anywhere and you didn't love her.

Integrity, rejection, very powerful. She knows if she got back with you, that's her probably sorted for life. None of this random dating stuff hoping for a Mr Right who won't cheat on her or worse.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

My H didn't have an affair, that I know of, but he did cheat on me 3 separate times on a 'one night stand' basis over a period of about 6 years.

I have questioned the 'getting it' issue too....

My H said it meant 'nothing' these women were just there, giving him attention, feeding his ego etc...

So if it meant nothing to him would it mean nothing if I did it? 

I really don't believe they can ever 'get it' if they haven't experienced it.


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## needrelief (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm of the opinion that the WS will never be able to fully "Get it".
I've spent a lot of time trying to get my wife to understand the impact of her affair. And though I think she's remorseful... that remorse has a lot more to do with the overall impact the affair has had on our life, rather than a sympathetic/empathetic realization of how its completely devastated me.

It's been a year and two months since I found out about my wife's affair, and the pain is as intense as if it just happened.

Yesterday I cried so hard that I couldn't breath...
Almost every time I'm in the car by myself, I can't resist giving a primal scream at the top of my lungs, to try to get some relief…
I almost never sleep more than 4 solid hours a night…
I constantly have to fight the mental images that haunt me…
Sex is (mentally and emotionally) painful...
I constantly mourn my carefree, former self…
I constantly mourn the person I thought my wife was…
I have to constantly battle thoughts that the last 24 years of my life is tainted and meaningless…​
When I tell these things to my wife, her response is alway, "You need to concentrate on our future…"
Which is accurate, but sounds so dismissive and insensitive.

The biggest indication that she doesn't "get it" is the fact that she never brings up the affair. It is only addressed if I bring it up. She also never shows emotion about the affair. I frequently feel emasculate, and like a big *****, because of how emotional I get. Almost half the time we have sex, I cry afterwards…

Sorry for rambling… this is my first post. Carrying all this around in my head is exhausting, and I just need to "get it out"


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

needrelief said:


> When I tell these things to my wife, her response is alway, "You need to concentrate on our future…"
> Which is accurate, but sounds so dismissive and insensitive.


At this rate, I don't think your future will include her. 

Post your story brother. It'll help start the healing. Lay it bare.


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## needrelief (Oct 24, 2014)

Rohitvikash said:


> At this rate, I don't think your future will include her.
> 
> Post your story brother. It'll help start the healing. Lay it bare.


I can't imagine my future without her… We've been together our whole adult lives (from 20-mid forties).

My story is so long and convoluted… I don't have the strength to "lay it bare" today…

My wife has been away for a week (death in the family). I've been suffering from separation anxiety, and it doesn't help that I also suffer from hysterical bonding (yeah… I'm a mess). Thank God she comes home today...


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My ex-wife successfully stage managed a false recovery for about a decade.

During which most of it she was still cheating.

She was a very good actress. Acting like she regretted what she had done while she was still cheating.

Very effed up.

So once I finally had the full story, or at least the huge, sick gist of it, divorce was the only option.

I kick myself daily for not having done it sooner. She never "got it."


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: "Getting it"*



michzz said:


> My ex-wife successfully stage managed a false recovery for about a decade.
> 
> During which most of it she was still cheating.
> 
> ...


And probably never will.


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## needrelief (Oct 24, 2014)

I know my wife doesn't "Get it"...

When my wife and I first reconciled, the nightly fights were horrible. She was so nonchalant about the affair. It seemed as though she thought my accepting/wanting her back meant that the affair wasn't a big deal.

I constantly wonder if she'd "get it" if I had a revenge affair?
Would she be devastated, as I was? Or has her affair changed her opinion about the severity of affairs in general?

I think, because she had an affair, her brain won't allow her to see affairs as the EVIL she used to believe they are (before she became a participant). Because, if she committed such an EVIL act, what does that say about her? 

As a form of self preservation, I believe she has convinced herself that "its not that big of a deal." Or at least, its something that can easily be fixed and forgiven with a few hops in the sack and an "I love you"…

I take it... but I'm extremely resentful of this. And the act of making love while trying to suppress rage and sadness is extremely exhausing and confusing… "Why am I making love to this woman?", "She doesn't deserve to feel good", "Is she comparing me to him?", "I love her so much", "How could she do this with someone else?"

When I tell her of the horrible vision I have, it kills me to think that my mentioning her affair then puts the thought of it in her mind. And it kills me even more to think that when she replays the acts in her head, she doesn't feel repulsed by them… In fact, she probably thinks back on them fondly, because at the time she was "in the fog" and feeling nothing but euphoria.

If that is the case with what she's feeling, I'm sure that makes it even harder for her to "Get it".

Does that make sense?

More than a year later, and I still CONSTANTLY think of her affair ALL DAY, EVERY DAY!

She comes home after a week away today, so I'm a bit on edge. Sorry if I'm rambling again...


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Just tossing out food for thought...

There are LD and HD types for sex. 

Perhaps there should be HDR and LDR types too
High Drive Relationships
Low Drive Relationships

High drives types simply do not cheat. LDR types have little respect for relationships and commitment. Perhaps they cloak their LDR or are unaware of it themselves.

We use the term LTR candidates and failing during the dating process. They showed their Low Drive for Relationships and commitments. Others get past this process but their weakness/trait eventually show themselves in time.

Could cheating be a character flaw? Or chemicals overriding reason. Genetic memory for the survival of the species...?


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## needrelief (Oct 24, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Could cheating be a character flaw? Or chemicals overriding reason. Genetic memory for the survival of the species...?


I always thought it was interesting when people sometimes appear to be slaves to survival instincts that are no longer necessary in the modern world… 

I never thought of it applying to affairs. At least not for women.

Interesting… but it excuses nothing.

Surely people (especially women) have the ability to choose to act more "evolved".


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

True. Understanding why never excuses the behavior. Ever.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

needrelief said:


> I know my wife doesn't "Get it"...
> 
> When my wife and I first reconciled, the nightly fights were horrible. She was so nonchalant about the affair. It seemed as though she thought my accepting/wanting her back meant that the affair wasn't a big deal.


Unless there's more to your story then you have given us already, then in a very real sense, the fact that you so obviously were desperate to have her back, without conditions, without her feeling a real risk of losing both you and her AP, means that for her, the affair wasn't as big a deal. There was no emotional trauma for her, while there was obviously a great deal of it for you. 

When you talked about and fought about her affair, were you primarily angry and accusatory, or did you act hurt/sad/mournful? If it was the latter - if she was nonchalant at seeing how much you suffered from the impact of her betrayal - then that nonchalance is either evidence that she was still having an affair, was still deeply buried in her affair fog, or she's some kind of sociopath. How can she sit there and watch someone she loves suffer like that and act nonchalant? While she may never "get it" in the sense we're talking about in this thread, for her to not appear to care about how her affair has devastated you is just...wrong. No one can love someone and at the same time be nonchalant when they see how their actions have devastated the person they love. 

If, on the other hand, you primarily fought with her in anger and rage, then she may have been acting nonchalant because she was emotionally withdrawing as a defense mechanism. Some people, especially those who were emotionally and verbally abused as children, reflexively withdraw into an emotional shell when they feel like they're being attacked. They distance themselves from their pain because they feel like showing any vulnerability will just get them hurt worse. 

If and when you showed your vulnerability - when you showed her how hurt you were, how her affair made you afraid you had lost her, how you feared her affair meant she no longer loved you, she acted nonchalant, then you should have serious doubts about her. 



needrelief said:


> I constantly wonder if she'd "get it" if I had a revenge affair?
> Would she be devastated, as I was? Or has her affair changed her opinion about the severity of affairs in general?
> 
> I think, because she had an affair, her brain won't allow her to see affairs as the EVIL she used to believe they are (before she became a participant). Because, if she committed such an EVIL act, what does that say about her?
> ...


First, how do you really know her view of affairs before she had one?

Second, she may have that impression that her affair can so easily be forgiven "with a few hops in the sack and an "I love you"" because that's what you let her do, or at least that's the impression you let her have. If she feels that you'll always be there for her after her affair, what's to stop her from having another one? She needs to be putting out the effort to give you reassurance that she isn't having an affair. You deserve to feel safe in your marriage with her, and you clearly don't. So figure out what you would need to feel safe in your marriage and truly loved and respected by her, then tell her what you need. She needs to be willing and ready to do what she can to give you that reassurance. If she won't, or she does this reluctantly or grudgingly, you really need to get out of that marriage.



needrelief said:


> I take it... but I'm extremely resentful of this. And the act of making love while trying to suppress rage and sadness is extremely exhausing and confusing… "Why am I making love to this woman?", "She doesn't deserve to feel good", "Is she comparing me to him?", "I love her so much", "How could she do this with someone else?"
> 
> When I tell her of the horrible vision I have, it kills me to think that my mentioning her affair then puts the thought of it in her mind. And it kills me even more to think that when she replays the acts in her head, she doesn't feel repulsed by them… In fact, she probably thinks back on them fondly, because at the time she was "in the fog" and feeling nothing but euphoria.
> 
> ...


You clearly can't continue living like this. You need to be honest with her about how you are feeling right now, and she needs to be willing to help you feel safe and loved by her. Tell her if this doesn't change ASAP, you need to leave her, because you clearly cannot continue with the status quo.


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## nanofaan (Aug 1, 2014)

I wish the best for you Rookie


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

needrelief said:


> I'm of the opinion that the WS will never be able to fully "Get it".
> I've spent a lot of time trying to get my wife to understand the impact of her affair. And though I think she's remorseful... that remorse has a lot more to do with the overall impact the affair has had on our life, rather than a sympathetic/empathetic realization of how its completely devastated me.
> 
> It's been a year and two months since I found out about my wife's affair, and the pain is as intense as if it just happened.
> ...


Yeah, you do need to get it out. But can you do us a favor and get it all out in a new thread? Continued talk about your issues would be blatant threadjacking. And anyways, you sound like you have enough issues to fill up a long thread all by yourself.


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## needrelief (Oct 24, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> Yeah, you do need to get it out. But can you do us a favor and get it all out in a new thread? Continued talk about your issues would be blatant threadjacking. And anyways, you sound like you have enough issues to fill up a long thread all by yourself.


First time posting… Unfamiliar with protocol.
Thanks for your comments. Will move it to new thread when I get an opportunity.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Nah, they don't.

My wife had been cheated on before... so I thought she'd "get it" and not do it to me.

Well, her rekindled EA is "different" and I should "just get over it."

Get it?

Nope.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

How much does anyone truly empathize with anyone on anything unless they have been through it themselves? 

We can make our best educated guesses but may never really know.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: "Getting it"*



needrelief said:


> I'm of the opinion that the WS will never be able to fully "Get it".
> I've spent a lot of time trying to get my wife to understand the impact of her affair. And though I think she's remorseful... that remorse has a lot more to do with the overall impact the affair has had on our life, rather than a sympathetic/empathetic realization of how its completely devastated me.
> 
> It's been a year and two months since I found out about my wife's affair, and the pain is as intense as if it just happened.
> ...


.......wow, so very close to my exact feelings.

......"she never brings up the affair" (unless I do) .....is such a familiar situation for me. It's almost "dismissive" attitude ....saying "you have the problem if it still bothers you"


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

Hurtin_Still said:


> .......wow, so very close to my exact feelings.
> 
> ......"she never brings up the affair" (unless I do) .....is such a familiar situation for me. It's almost "dismissive" attitude ....saying "you have the problem if it still bothers you"


I never recommend ra but I don't think you have much to lose anymore. Have fun with someone else. 

And don't listen to my advice. I'm borderline crazy right now.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: "Getting it"*



Rohitvikash said:


> I never recommend ra but I don't think you have much to lose anymore. Have fun with someone else.
> 
> And don't listen to my advice. I'm borderline crazy right now.


........somehow .....I'd like to think myself above doing that .....for what it's worth? 

.......and ...stop toying with 'borderline crazy' .......I did ....its much more rewarding to be full blown nutso.


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ........somehow .....I'd like to think myself above doing that .....for what it's worth?
> 
> .......and ...stop toying with 'borderline crazy' .......I did ....its much more rewarding to be full blown nutso.


:rofl:

A genuine laugh after quite a while.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: "Getting it"*



Rohitvikash said:


> :rofl:
> 
> A genuine laugh after quite a while.


......glad I could be the timely comic relief!


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Cheaters' algorithm is as follows, I find.

x = something wrong, something inappropriate, to be frowned upon - anything untowards about the relationship.

--before infidelity--
BS: (trying to draw out some empathy) what would you do if I do x?
WS: No flucking way, that'd be so unbecoming.

--after infidelity--
BS: (trying to draw out some empathy) what would you do if I do x?
WS: That's no big deal. Don't exaggerate the situation. I'd probably ignore it as a one time mistake.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

verpin zal said:


> Cheaters' algorithm is as follows, I find.
> 
> x = something wrong, something inappropriate, to be frowned upon - anything untowards about the relationship.
> 
> ...


Dude, you couldn't be more spot on. One time in MC earlier this year I actually detailed on paper a timeline graph about something that was bothering me, in mere moments she left the room to take a piss, how convenient rather than face the MC looking up saying "I can understand where he is coming from"

So no, while they are in lollipop land, a Homer Simpsonesque hallucinogenic environment where all of lifes problems that are brought on by the wayward at present yet since others, myself especially, "Made" them happen due to xyzpdq not being accomplished or noticed, allows them to play around in a fantasy land.

Wayward suck.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I think that two issues make it impossible for the WS to get it. One is that you cannot undo an affair. Even if you reconcile, it is always in the room with you, it has become part of you. The other is that the WS gave away something that rightly belonged to you, whether it be their body, but more importantly, part of their mind and soul that should have been yours.



I think as a BH and what happened in my case..I came to the grips with this was my WWs problem...she let her boss woo her and do sexually anything he could think of with her..and when i exposed the affair to his BW and filed a lawsuit against her company ...SHE lost everything...as well as he..

But my point is it WAS HER ...she had the issue not me...i was FU$%INK devastated when i saw the pics of them.. BUT.SHE was the who^E not me...she threw her life away and had to leave town ..not me..my family sypathizes with me..her own son will not speak to HER... When i realized after a time it was NOTHING i did and she was a shallow broken person ...the WEIGHT left me..

Again i am sorry for your loss.. Badkarma 2014


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## shellgames (Sep 2, 2014)

4 months out and just sorry she was caught, protects the OM


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## shellgames (Sep 2, 2014)

Unbelievable how accurate the newbie thread is.


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## nightmare01 (Oct 3, 2014)

We we as men know what it feels like to have a baby? Or what it feels like for a woman to be raped?

Maybe it's like that. We can understand the pain of it mentally, but the visceral experience remains beyond our capability to comprehend.

I doubt if any WS actually gets the depth of pain and self destruction that goes with being betrayed.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, I'm back from a very restful vacation. I want to thank all of those who sent me "likes" and best wishes. It's good to know you have friends, even on the "net'. This ol Kentucky boy says "thankee".


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

shellgames said:


> 4 months out and just sorry she was caught, protects the OM


Time for divorce papers.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

needrelief said:


> When my wife and I first reconciled...


Whoa, whoa, whoa... let me stop you right there. You didn't reconcile, you're reconcil_ing_.

And you're doing it ALL WRONG...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/228850-humiliation-how-do-you-get-past.html


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa... let me stop you right there. You didn't reconcile, you're reconcil_ing_.
> 
> And you're doing it ALL WRONG...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/228850-humiliation-how-do-you-get-past.html


Yes, it is an ongoing process, never an accomplished fact.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Marriage itself is an ongoing process as well. I'm constantly working on maintaining and bettering my relationship. Why should reconciliation be any different. People need to start opening their eyes and realizing that the old saying is true. Nothing in life worth having comes easy. Or as Teddy Roosevelt said:

Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.


Btw, welcome back rookie!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Marriage itself is an ongoing process as well. I'm constantly working on maintaining and bettering my relationship. Why should reconciliation be any different. People need to start opening their eyes and realizing that the old saying is true. Nothing in life worth having comes easy. Or as Teddy Roosevelt said:
> 
> Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Pal....I appreciate it.
I agree that marriage is an ongoing process, but I think that marriage AND reconciliation are sometimes too much. You can weld a patch on a part that is stronger than the original, but it is still a patch. I will accept a "patched" part, I won't accept a "patched" marriage.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

nightmare01 said:


> We we as men know what it feels like to have a baby? Or what it feels like for a woman to be raped?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It would seem logical, and I think, as BS's, we really want this to be true. If it were true, then there wouldn't be any BS's that, after divorce and remarriage, end up having an affair. But the sad fact is there are FBS's who cheat. (WFBS's?) Although not as many as the number of FWS who get cheated on in their second marriage (but that's just karmic justice I suppose) the fact that this happens at all would seem to disprove that any WS could truly understand the depth of pain caused by the betrayal of infidelity. Either that, or it shows just how much self-delusion the mind is capable of, and that self-delusionary power is heavily relied upon in the mind of a WS during the course of an affair.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> It would seem logical, and I think, as BS's, we really want this to be true. If it were true, then there wouldn't be any BS's that, after divorce and remarriage, end up having an affair. But the sad fact is there are FBS's who cheat. (WFBS's?) Although not as many as the number of FWS who get cheated on in their second marriage (but that's just karmic justice I suppose) the fact that this happens at all would seem to disprove that any WS could truly understand the depth of pain caused by the betrayal of infidelity. Either that, or it shows just how much self-delusion the mind is capable of, and that self-delusionary power is heavily relied upon in the mind of a WS during the course of an affair.


But that's the question, isn't it? Can the WS ever fully understand , without it happening to them? Sounds like a pretty good argument for RA's.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Perhaps posters can comment on the idea that the WS would "get it" if the same thing was done to them?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps posters can comment on the idea that the WS would "get it" if the same thing was done to them?


My wife's first husband was a serial cheater so when she cheated on me she should have known where I was, how much in pain I was when she cheated on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Agree Matt, I think cheating it's such a selfish act that even if you were cheated on you aren't thinking of your partner's feelings at all. You cannot have any empathy or put yourself in their place even if you were in their place in the past. I think once you get to the point where committing infidelity is under consideration you've already passed the stage where your partner is in the forefront of your thoughts.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

bfree said:


> Agree Matt, I think cheating it's such a selfish act that even if you were cheated on you aren't thinking of your partner's feelings at all. You cannot have any empathy or put yourself in their place even if you were in their place in the past. I think once you get to the point where committing infidelity is under consideration you've already passed the stage where your partner is in the forefront of your thoughts.



Forefront? LOL. Talk about understatement.

Not only aren't they forefront, they are at best an inconvenient obstacle that performs a necessary function or cake.

At worst, they are just an obstacle. Why do you think so many Dateline episodes involve cheaters either murdering or hiring hit men to kill their failthful spouses?


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I asked the SO when/if she ever realized the pain she put me through, or if I ever hurt her to a similar degree, or comparatively. 


She brought up the first time I got out of the hospital. 
Doctors told me that if I didn't eat properly, it would lead to liver failure. Which leads to a host of other problems. And ends in a coffin. 
And they told her, off the record, that I looked severally depressed, and my steroid therapy would do little to help my mood. So they told her if I didn't eat, I'd be dead in two months. 


She cooked, and made sure the house smelled like she had been cooking 24/7. She wanted my hunger to force me to eat. 
I was so lost, and angry, I refused to eat. I didn't care which came first, be it death or divorce, I was going to lose either way. I saw no way out. And I enjoyed ignoring her cooking, knowing every time I refused and ignored her, it hurt her. 

She told me, this was the worst pain she ever felt. Worse than the day we divorced, DDay, any other day, this was the worst. Watching as I slowly killed myself, refusing to accept any help from her, rejecting not only affection but her cooking, her touching, care, everything. 
Knowing her husband hated her, that she had destroyed him to such a degree, that he rather kill himself than accept any help from his wife. 

I am sure she got how painful it was for me to have her cheating.


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## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> But that's the question, isn't it? Can the WS ever fully understand , without it happening to them? Sounds like a pretty good argument for RA's.


When it comes to infidelity, I personally take the stand of "an eye for an eye". When my xWW and I were separated I found out about her affair, and did scorched earth divorce tactics. And met a pretty lady. And got to know her better. And felt no guilt about it at all. She didn't know about my new lady, but she suspected based on my behavior.

And the dynamics of everything changed from that moment going forward.

I can remember so vividly: the marital home (my house now) was empty for a few months while I stayed with my brothers. Once things heated up with the other lady, I spruced up my house and moved back in. The first time she had to come over to pick up our daughter, she was dressed to the nines. For the first time in years, she was finally dressing to catch MY attention. We politely exchanged pleasantries, I asked if she wanted a couple things from the house for our daughter, hugged our daughter goodbye, looked her straight in the eye, waved at her and said "Bye!"

Her shoulders literally slumped...it was like she literally deflated right before my eyes. And she trudged back to her car, got in, and left.

That's when she knew. I didn't have to say a word.

Not long after that I heard from her brother that she started drinking and missing a lot of work. Which is what I had gone through a couple months prior to that...before I had started going to counseling and really working on rebuilding my life. Yeah...she got a taste of it too.

Point is, when it comes to infidelity, it's very rare when a WS ever truly "gets it" without going through it themselves.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

This is what I meant. Sweetie never really believed that we were finished, until I refused to let her back into the house, and began moving her belongings to a storage unit.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks to all posters for their opinions. I think this thread is pretty much over.


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