# What Women Think About Sex Versus Reality



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Here's an article on the differences between how women view sex vs reality

What Women Think About Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom

Thoughts?


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

It's very good I think. Also the other one about what men think vs the reality is well worth a read too.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GREAT stuff. Make certain you read the what men think too.

All you need to know in a couple paragraphs!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Good stuff. Parts of it should be copied and pasted into a variety of current threads (and many that recur often).


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Here's an article on the differences between how women view sex vs reality
> 
> What Women Think About Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom
> 
> Thoughts?


I find the entire article very interesting.
The part that really intrigues me is where it states that men think "Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure."
When in actuality the woman enjoys seeing a man in lust with them and can derive pleasure from this even without their own orgasm.
I really notice this with my own wife. If I come to bed and get reved up real fast, it very much excites her and she WANTS me to cum and forget about her.

This is why I do whatever I can to keep my lust up, taking Viagra, testosterone cream watch porn before sex, while never masturbating alone. At 55 years of age after 25 years of marriage, I DO need some help with my mojo.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Good article.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Everytime I read things like this, I come away from them with reinforcement that I am clearly very different than the rest of my gender.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I could totally identify with this part:




> *2- He doesn’t find me attractive, I’m just the only person he has around to have sex with.*
> 
> Boy, you really like making yourself feel like crap, don’t you? Yet again, I draw on clinical experience to tell you, very very infrequently does a husband come in and say (even when his wife is not in the room) that he no longer finds her physically attractive but has sex with her because she’s the only option. Much, much more frequently, the man acknowledges that his wife may not look identical to her wedding photos anymore, but he still finds her desirable physically. However, many men no longer find their wives as emotionally attractive, by which I mean, their wives do not speak to them with love and appreciation as they did back when the sex was hot. (Yes I know that you have plenty of reasons that you don’t speak to him affectionately anymore; I am just focusing for now on the fact that men usually still find their wives physically arousing even if they have gained weight or have some wrinkles.)


While the clever blogger's words of wisdom are sound advice for women, a wife's perception of feeling like the closest available orifice is very MUCH the fault and blame of the husband. 

My husband refuses to discuss our bad old days so I remain only aware of how I felt and why I felt. If your wife has ever said this to you, you need to do some serious soul searching.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> a wife's perception of feeling like the closest available orifice is very MUCH the fault and blame of the husband.


Might be. Sometimes. Many times. Not always.

Start from the point of view that 2 things are present simultaneously (a) husband finds wife very attractive, and (b) couple is not having as much sex as the husband wants. How exactly is H supposed to convey both ideas (I find you attractive and I want to have more sex with you) in a way that guarantees that his wife will not feel like the closest available orifice? Some women jump pretty darn quickly from any suggestion that the couple have sex more frequently than she inherently desires to "he only thinks of me as the closest available orifice". After all, if he loved about her and cared about her feelings, then he would only want to have sex when she was in the mood and enthusiastic, right? So if he complains that sometimes he wants to have sex even when she isn't in the mood, then he must not care about her feelings at all and only thinks of her as the closest available orifice, right?

I agree that it is bad for the H when he hears his wife utter this complaint. And he should do some serious soul searching as to whether he feels that way inside, is giving off signals to that effect, and how he could communicate his attraction to and desire for his wife in ways that do not cause her to feel like the closest available orifice. But she needs to take some responsibility too.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> While the clever blogger's words of wisdom are sound advice for women, *a wife's perception of feeling like the closest available orifice is very MUCH the fault and blame of the husband. *
> 
> My husband refuses to discuss our bad old days so I remain only aware of how I felt and why I felt. If your wife has ever said this to you, you need to do some serious soul searching.


 @Anon Pink the two of us are very slow at our reading comprehension, and I suspect you were also a frowned upon member of Mrs Raddle's 1st Grade "Brownbird Readers" instead of being one the nerdy kids over in the "BlueBird Readers" across the room. 

I read the article again and found this part interesting:



> In fact, no area in the marriage benefits from an accusatory or contemptuous attitude, but let’s tackle one thing at a time here.


uhhhhhhh, Now I'm all confused again! I don't even know what I was going to say...

Badsanta


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

* 1 - It's not about love for him, it's about getting off.

and

2 - He doesn't find me attractive, I'm just the only one around for him to have sex with.*

I have heard arguments against these so many times. I've been around this forum long enough to see many men refute these statements. My rational mind can read the words and understand the content. My heart cannot accept them as fact. 

That has absolutely nothing to do with my husband. He has never said or done anything to make me believe he thinks that way. These are beliefs I have had since my youngest days. Right when young people start talking about and paying attention to sex. Reinforced by all the time I spent being buddies with "the guys" and listening to locker room talk. Sure it was just immature banter. Reinforced by years of hearing mom's and mom-like figures tell girls that boys only want you for sex. 

Add to that: I do not experience sex myself as a hugely emotional bonding experience. Touch is at the dead bottom of my love languages list. When I desire sex myself, it really is just to get off. So not only can I not accept that my husband feels differently about it, I don't even comprehend what that would feel like myself. Sex is fun and pleasurable but I do not feel more or less loved by doing it. 

I've often thought that I have three unshakeable perceptions about my marriage that I cannot get rid of, and that are damaging to my relationship. These are two of those three. Reading more words on a page doesn't help me change that. I couldn't tell you anything that would change it. 

I have learned through trial and error though, that it really hurts my husband when I speak of my three beliefs as if they are fact. So I have learned to keep these thoughts to myself. No use in hurting him over it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

kag123 said:


> * 1 - It's not about love for him, it's about getting off.
> 
> and
> 
> ...


you sound like my W, at times anyway..... Some of the stuff she has said about sex really hurt me...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I could totally identify with this part:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can accept that it may often be the fault of the husband, but I don't think many men are trying to convey that message and don't understand how they might be doing that.

What's a guy do that makes a woman think this?

How could he avoid it?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Very interesting


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Double post


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> .....Thoughts?


Wow. Great article. The companion article was even more interesting. My wife refuses to either give or receive oral sex. For her it is off the table, period. The companion article was very enlightening.



> Dispelling this myth can be my great contribution to humanity. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a man say that “unlike most guys,” he “really likes” to go down on women, I would have enough nickels to build a life size statue of a man going down on a woman. And then I would auction it off on ebay, because I have children, for God’s sake. Anyway, men, listen up, I would wager about 80% of you really like to do this. You are not the minority.
> 
> Meanwhile, back on Earth, *very very few women in long term monogamous relationships want frequent oral sex*. Really. Even the hot girls you dated in college that were all about it. Do you know why they were all about it? A few reasons: a- they were young and hormonal. Women and men are fairly similar in terms of their sexual peak; it’s a myth that men peak at 18 and women at 40. Doesn’t this make evolutionary sense? (This myth got propagated probably because women are too shy when young to speak up about what they want in bed, but older women are more confident so may seem more sexual.) Then, b- you were new and exciting. As I said before, women’s libido decreases greatly with monogamy. Even a few years of college dating is nothing like the monogamy that comes with living with you and your underwear on the floor.
> 
> *Many women find oral sex to be overwhelming (too much physical sensation in one place), it may make them feel distant from you (physically and emotionally), and not to mention, you try it at the wrong time.* Many women are likelier to want oral sex when they are already aroused; trying it too early in the encounter may physically hurt and make women feel self-conscious. *When their inhibitions are lowered is a better time to try, but even then, many women do not enjoy it.*


The whole set of two articles were very interesting and helpful. Thanks.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

#4 speaks to me. The others do to a lesser extent. I almost never initiate and I feel happier not being rejected.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> Wow. Great article. The companion article was even more interesting. My wife refuses to either give or receive oral sex. For her it is off the table, period. The companion article was very enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole set of two articles were very interesting and helpful. Thanks.


The part you quoted about oral sex could not be more WRONG for me! I'm honestly astonished so many women (per the article) dislike it!!


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> you sound like my W, at times anyway..... Some of the stuff she has said about sex really hurt me...


The hardest part of talking to my H about sex is that for HIM, it is a very emotionally charged topic. For me, it is not. I can be very frank about it...never purposefully hurtful, and I would never say anything disparaging about him specifically...and it rolls off my back. Like he could say to me - I didn't like it when you did X. I wouldn't do it again and would go on my merry way without a second thought. We could not have that same conversation in reverse without a mountain of hurt ensuing. 

Since he doesn't show me his emotions or tell me if I've done or said something daft, it took me YEARS to realize that this particular subject was so touchy. Sounds ridiculous right? But I imagine the same thing happens to husbands in reverse. There are many things my husband has said to me about topics that I am extremely sensitive about and I've gotten hurt by it. Later I realized he wasn't being purposefully hurtful he just didn't know that was a sore subject for me. 

Now I've learned 1) when to keep my mouth shut (and that sharing is not always good), and 2) to develop a thicker skin of my own when we talk about my touchy subjects.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Holdingontoit and @badsanta,


No doubt, unquestionably, the wife has some responsibility. She is responsible for her body image; to accept the things about her body she cannot change, to love her curves and not critically compare herself to those who do not share her body type; and to endeavor to put her best foot forward as often as possible because when she looks good she feels good.

But gentlemen, before you got married your wife probably did not feel as if she was the closest available oriface to you. she feel in love with you because you made her feel loved by....spending time with her, putting effort into being with her, being your best self to keep her interested in you, made her feel both protected and loved by being affectionate without pressure. You didn't assume your right to have sex with her. You made her want sex with you because your efforts to woo her worked.

Fast forward 10 years and a couple of kids....what's different in your interactions with your wife?

Look at how many men want to refute this and compare it how many women can identify with this? Kag and I are not the only ones.

Edited to add: @Holdingontoit, I reread your post and this stuck out for me:
"How to convey I'm attracted to you and want more sex?" 

About 2 years into our marriage I was fresh from the shower, wearing a robe that was hanging loose, putting moisturizer on my body, as I have always done since puberty. I was not at all aware that my H was looking at me because I did that every day and he had seen it MANY times. Out of the blue he said: "I wish you did that at night." I thought, what? Take a shower at night? What... do I smell? To my questioning face he said "put on your lotion at night." Again I thought why? Does he like the way this lotion smells? Is my dry skin unappealing? I had NO CLUE he was talking about the sexiness of watching his partially naked wife apply lotion to her whole body. NO GOD DAMN IDEA!!!! Did he mention anything about it being sexy? Did he say anything about me being sexy? Did he say anything about beauty? In a huff, thinking my dry skin was unappealing I got dressed and left.


YEARS later, this memory popped into my head as yet another moment in which I might have taken a compliment but instead took an insult. It was a combination of my horrible body image and his inability to actually compliment.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I can accept that it may often be the fault of the husband, but I don't think many men are trying to convey that message and don't understand how they might be doing that.
> 
> What's a guy do that makes a woman think this?
> 
> How could he avoid it?


From the companion piece...




> Even a few years of college dating is nothing like the monogamy that *comes with living with you and your underwear on the floor.*


>

If only it was that simple. My H has left dirty underwear on the floor maybe a dozen times in 31 years of marriage. His socks are always unballed and together in the hamper. So it's not always personal habits though they can sabotage your good efforts.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Anon Pink - wow - I can't believe you laid all that in your H and wrapped it up in an accusation that he doesn't know the proper way to complement you! Just wow.

If you make meatloaf and he say, wow we should have this more often, would you take that as a failed complement? If so, you might benefit from evaluating your need to hear certain words and phrases in order to ACCEPT s complement. 

I just don't think it's a helpful to your relationship to parse his words and criticize his way of talking to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Anon Pink - wow - I can't believe you laid all that in your H and wrapped it up in an accusation that he doesn't know the proper way to complement you! Just wow.
> 
> If you make meatloaf and he say, wow we should have this more often, would you take that as a failed complement? If so, you might benefit from evaluating your need to hear certain words and phrases in order to ACCEPT s complement.
> 
> ...



Nice try.

A perfect example, yet again, of a man who cannot or will not hear what a woman is saying and instead accuses her of being critical.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Here's an article on the differences between how women view sex vs reality
> 
> What Women Think About Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom
> 
> Thoughts?


I read both articles and none of it applies to my reality. Especially women's declining libido in long term monogamous relationships. I've been monogamous for almost 17 years and my sexual desire fluctuates between high and very high.

*high defined as thinking about sex frequently and wanting to actually have sex once every 36-48 hours. Very high defined as "Oh, God, I can't move. Please, MJ, water..."


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

kag123 said:


> * 1 - It's not about love for him, it's about getting off.
> 
> and
> 
> ...


Thank you for your honesty. I wish there were some way you could get over these terrible beliefs that interfere with your relationship with your husband.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

UMP said:


> I find the entire article very interesting.
> The part that really intrigues me is where it states that men think "Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure."
> When in actuality the woman enjoys seeing a man in lust with them and can derive pleasure from this even without their own orgasm.


they enjoy the power game, but in a modern world where women can expect orgasms and expect that this isn't just a trade for other services, her vagina for social/position/influence/implied support, then "tyre kicking" the sales staff won't get you far for long. (and some ahole guys find that "oat sowing" while things are exciting is fine for them, moving on happily taking the free samples....)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> But gentlemen, before you got married your wife probably did not feel as if she was the closest available oriface to you. she feel in love with you because you made her feel loved by....spending time with her, putting effort into being with her, being your best self to keep her interested in you, made her feel both protected and loved by being affectionate without pressure. You didn't assume your right to have sex with her. *You made her want sex with you because your efforts to woo her worked.*


 @Anon Pink stop projecting! 

My wife says my efforts to woo her are no more or less than they are to this day, but back then she did not speak english well and she was desperately lonely as a freshman college student from a foreign country. She claims I just took unfair advantage of that back then and she knows better now! 

Badsanta


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

"While the clever blogger's words of wisdom are sound advice for women, a wife's perception of feeling like the closest available orifice is very MUCH the fault and blame of the husband. "

NOPE. although he can be yet another contributor to the SuperEgo/Id complex.

Far more likely that it is HER perception and thus mostly her fault and blame must lie there. Because it is HER perception and she's the only one who can change HER perception. Got to own that problem to change it...if it's his blame/fault, how is he going to change [it], that would require passive aggressive , I do this in the hope she can change that.

The illness is created by women, and reinforced by media. SuperEgo is always impressed by Authority figures, especially when young. 
how much female stuff you see and are exposed to by media and women that is all about vaginas (or to really throw the net wider, babies/offspring) - that is where your pressure to reduce a woman to a vagina is coming from. 

And the usual habit of most woman? when it's something happen from outside herself - blame a man for it. If he has nothing to do with it, declare the world a patriarchy and blame all men for it. Thing is, unless the man is actually forcing the issue through violence, it's not him.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

kag123 said:


> * 1 - It's not about love for him, it's about getting off.*


And what makes you think "Love" is thought of being the same thing by even a minority of men and women? Honestly, brass tacks and wires, wizard behind the curtain level of expectations. Sure the _surface_ is similar, but what about the underlying expectations?


For him, it can be many things:
status (scoring points, more than other guys)
habit (used to it, likes it, addicted to it)
hormones (haven't had it for a while, body hormones make everything and everyone look good - eg "prison syndrome" where anything under 30 looks like a cute woman)
getting off (physical pleasure)
reputation (having a trophy on his arm/not being a "loser single")
proxy sexuality (liking the feeling of womanly body they wish they had)
validation as a man (real men sleep with women, easing off now homosexuality is accepted in a few places)
validation from a proxy mother (men that seek motherly (or even sisterly) attention and/or care)
status validation (I'm fertile therefore I rate as a man, often when there's heir pressure from culture/religion)
fear of homosexuality or loneliness (obvious, often linked to the others)
animal mating drive (often from alcohol situation or in mob-think)
expectations from others (fathers pushing, mothers pushing, friends pushing, gf expecting him to "measure up"/provide kids)
conquest (thrill of the chase, also tends to tie in with reputation, but this is more of a personal ego trip/self-validation)
power trip (to show control or power over women)
submissive trip (to show he's caring or level or submissive to women, it serves as a validation to his Ego, in a place said Ego says man is dominant)
jealousy, rage, revenge (to get back at someone else - normally only an option to socially advantaged males)

and even:
care
and emotional connection with a compatiable person.

So what do women _actually_ mean by "love"


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Also I note in one of the items in the article it states that "men are very visual".

From research I have done and seen, and observation and anecdote, that's untrue.

Men are not particularly visual, women definitely are.

Visual is important because it can be done with others without their active participation.
So people that are "out of league" or doing things that real partners don't do, (or couldn't without a film crew and 3 days prep&recovery), can be a personal fantasy trip.
Just look at the social cues, look at the dresses and suits, look around a sci fi con, look at a cross section of an office.
whose house is "tidied for convenience" and whose has things put in draws for the visual appearance. Who matches the drapes, or particular cares if the socks match.
who rejects 10% of the other gender purely on looks, and who rejects 70% (and is magnetically obsessed purely on looks on the top 10%).

Or an old adage: "I don't dress to impress men"


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Out of the blue he said: "I wish you did that at night." I thought, what? Take a shower at night? What... do I smell? To my questioning face he said "put on your lotion at night."
> YEARS later, this memory popped into my head as yet another moment in which I might have taken a compliment but instead took an insult. It was a combination of my horrible body image and his nability to actually compliment.


I disagree. This is not about his inability to actually compliment. He did compliment. This is entirely about your inability to accept his compliment. Which is a component of why I objected to your initial statement that this is mostly the man's fault.

If he says "wow, I would like you to spend time rubbing lotion onto your body at night before we go to bed". And you view that as an instance when he is insulting you. That is entirely on you. He WAS complimenting you. Maybe not in the way you would most prefer. But in his own clumsy inarticulate way. Your job was to say "thank you, but next time tell me how much you love the curve of my thigh" rather than complaining to him that he insulted you. He did not. You took it as an insult. Bad on you. If you weren't sure what he meant, at least give him the benefit of the doubt. No, you took his compliment as an insult. That is your bad, not his. I know you see this now. But the lesson is for women to give their men the benefit of the doubt. Not to blame men when women interpret the man's statements to indicate that he views her only as an available orifice. The essential point on the counsellor's article was her experience that very few men view their wives that way. Whereas far too many women believe that their husband views them that way. That disconnect is on the wives, not the husbands. You tried to put the blame on the husbands. Not right.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Nice try.
> 
> 
> 
> A perfect example, yet again, of a man who cannot or will not hear what a woman is saying and instead accuses her of being critical.




Try? What try? Your response is comical. But only to a point. Beyond that it's sad. You sound like a very angry, harsh woman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Try? What try? Your response is comical. But only to a point. Beyond that it's sad. You sound like a very angry, harsh woman.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




BTW you were LITERALLY critical of your H in your post. Hence my comment that you were critical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> "While the clever blogger's words of wisdom are sound advice for women, a wife's perception of feeling like the closest available orifice is very MUCH the fault and blame of the husband. "
> 
> NOPE. although he can be yet another contributor to the SuperEgo/Id complex.
> 
> ...


Men blame their wives for their own problems as well. It's human nature to blame the closes person.

Your claim that the only way that a woman feeling that she's just feeling like the closest available orifice is if he is using violence is a crock.

I can give you some examples of what can make a woman feel like she's just an orfice. These are only two examples. I'm sure that are other scenarios where it's not her just making up something stupid.

A husband who has sex only for himself. He does nothing to please his wife sexually. it makes the woman feel like he does no care about her... she is just a hole to stick it into.

A man who only pays attention to his wife when he wants sex. Otherwise he ignores her, goes out with this friends, and spend no other time with her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Try? What try? Your response is comical. But only to a point. Beyond that it's sad. You sound like a very angry, harsh woman.


She shared something about her relationship with her husband.. something intimate. My take on it is that she was sharing an example out of her own life of how two people can just miss the mark with each other, mostly because of lack of good communication. Isn't sharing and working through issues like this part of what TAM is for?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@Anon Pink has detailed the issues with her husband's lack of complimenting her here several times, so she probably figured it was already explained and didn't realize that people who don't know that part of her story would just assume she took that one example and called it "he doesn't compliment me".

It it actually a very big problem between them and her husband @thumbper knows it is, too.

I don't know if the problem has gotten any better or not, maybe they will update us.

But from what Anon has shared before, their dynamic with regard to compliments would be a huge problem for almost any woman. 

Lack of sincere compliments would be a deal breaker for me, for sure. I also give as good as I get, though. I'm the most happy with someone who easily and frequently compliments and who accepts and believes my compliments, too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> If he says "wow, I would like you to spend time rubbing lotion onto your body at night before we go to bed". And you view that as an instance when he is insulting you. That is entirely on you. He WAS complimenting you. Maybe not in the way you would most prefer. But in his own clumsy inarticulate way. *Your job was to say "thank you, but next time tell me how much you love the curve of my thigh"* rather than complaining to him that he insulted you. He did not. You took it as an insult. Bad on you. If you weren't sure what he meant, at least give him the benefit of the doubt. No, you took his compliment as an insult. That is your bad, not his. I know you see this now. But the lesson is for women to give their men the benefit of the doubt. Not to blame men when women interpret the man's statements to indicate that he views her only as an available orifice. The essential point on the counsellor's article was her experience that very few men view their wives that way. Whereas far too many women believe that their husband views them that way. That disconnect is on the wives, not the husbands. You tried to put the blame on the husbands. Not right.


I believe she has asked him many times for sincere compliments, and he hasn't/can't/won't give them. It is a real problem in their marriage. The one example she gave doesn't give insight into the huge LACK of compliments from her H that exists in their marriage. He is not a compliment type of guy and it has been a huge issue.

Hopefully she will come back and explain more.

I don't think most men are as lacking in compliment giving as her H is, but if they are, it is definitely a problem and would definitely make most women shut down.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a good article, and I think generally true, but of course keep in mind that there is a lot of variation between individuals.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Personal said:


> Through 20+ years none of that resembles my sexual experience with my wife at all.


Thank The Universe for this post. 

This article is a load of c.rap IME.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Men blame their wives for their own problems as well. It's human nature to blame the closes person.
> 
> Your claim that the only way that a woman feeling that she's just feeling like the closest available orifice is if he is using violence is a crock.
> 
> ...


Oh, very much so [men blaming women] - it's actually the nature of a partnership more than closest person, in that we are lead to have certain expectations of the other party to be repsonsible for, most of those we don't know we're doing, and many of them they other person has no idea about them, let alone that they're supposed to be skilled at fulfilling that expectation!

BUT...more important, this discussion (and my reply) was about the women blaming men.

That has absolutely nothing to do with "men blaming women" at all. nothing.nadda.zilch.zip-a-roonie.

With your skills, knowledge, and experience; why _are_ you pulling out the "but men do..." card?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> Thank The Universe for this post.
> 
> This article is a load of c.rap IME.


Maybe the pair of you just need to have more relationships with people, or take a more honest look at the level of power in yours. Yes, occasional actual nice people do occur and sometimes they even meet - but consider yourself fortunate and rare.

I have heard those comments before and normally always about others - often from women whose men folk _worshipped_ them - bought them gifts, spend time, spooned, walked pets, did gardening, worked on the house, helped with preserves, picked up supplies from the store, dutifully poured everything into the house and kids' funds, and her wardrobe.

The real problem? They weren't equals in the partnership. She saw everything that he did as her entitlement as a wife and mother, and resented his desire for sex; which was the _only_ thing he'd ever asked from her - thus her attitude, that she was just a hole for him. The sad thing is that nothing he could do would ever be enough, because it would always be taken as her due entitlement. In the end he had a PA, and everything blew to hell, she got everything, and he ended up hanging himself, but it was a mercy really because he really did care for her that much and she was the only "bright spot" in his life.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> Thank The Universe for this post.
> 
> This article is a load of c.rap IME.





Faithful Wife said:


> I believe she has asked him many times for sincere compliments, and he hasn't/can't/won't give them. It is a real problem in their marriage. The one example she gave doesn't give insight into the huge LACK of compliments from her H that exists in their marriage. He is not a compliment type of guy and it has been a huge issue.
> 
> Hopefully she will come back and explain more.
> 
> I don't think most men are as lacking in compliment giving as her H is, but if they are, it is definitely a problem and would definitely make most women shut down.


Depending on Love Language, he might not have been a verbal guy, and thus pretty much unable to give them in verbal form/some form she recognised.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree. This is not about his inability to actually compliment. He did compliment. This is entirely about your inability to accept his compliment. Which is a component of why I objected to your initial statement that this is mostly the man's fault.
> 
> If *he says "wow, I would like you to spend time rubbing lotion onto your body at night before we go to bed"*.



But that's not what he said. His exact words were "I wish you did that at night." Trying to understand how you and others see those words as a compliment? 

Context is everything. In your contextual understanding on those words, you see a provocative image and you therefore hear those words as seductively complimentary. 

In my context, however, a husband who never compliments EVER, combined with the everyday mundane experience of getting dressed, having NEVER received a compliment from him, those words were completely meaningless.

I'm not exaggerating. When I first came to TAM the fact that my husband NEVER compliments was a HUGE issue. Not on our wedding day, not when we went out all dressed up, not when others complimented me, not when I asked for them, not when I begged for them, not until I forced him into therapy. He didn't have the words, he couldn't identify his feelings let alone express them. He never complimented and never complained because he didn't know how to connect what he felt with words and couldn't bring himself to express the most simple basic thing.



> And you view that as an instance when he is insulting you. That is entirely on you. He WAS complimenting you. Maybe not in the way you would most prefer. But in his own clumsy inarticulate way. Your job was to say "thank you, but next time tell me how much you love the curve of my thigh" rather than complaining to him that he insulted you. He did not. You took it as an insult. Bad on you. If you weren't sure what he meant, at least give him the benefit of the doubt. No, you took his compliment as an insult. That is your bad, not his. I know you see this now. But the lesson is for women to give their men the benefit of the doubt. Not to blame men when women interpret the man's statements to indicate that he views her only as an available orifice. The essential point on the counsellor's article was her experience that very few men view their wives that way. Whereas far too many women believe that their husband views them that way. That disconnect is on the wives, not the husbands. You tried to put the blame on the husbands. Not right.


did you read what I wrote? I said that I had no idea what he was talking about. I said that I gave him a puzzled expression to which he added "putting lotion on." I said I wondered if he was referring to the scent of the lotion or the feel of my dry skin. I had no idea he was talking about my naked body and how it turned him on. No clue at all. Why? Because he had never ever complimented me in the past so how on earth could I few his minimal words as a compliment on my body?

Yes, the blame is on the husbands. Yes the blame is on my husband. If I took the time to write out what our relationship was like back then, if I cared to go back and detail how utterly used and unappreciated I felt...perhaps you might understand. Or perhaps you might continue to point the finger at me?

My husband participated here for a brief time. His name was @thumbper. He logged on a few months ago, but his last post was more than a year ago. He has had ample opportunity to express his side and his feelings and has declined.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sorry, did not have the context. As a guy who over-compliments and gets rolled eyes, I am not sensitive to the situation where a guy does not provide any compliments. I do know that there are plenty of such situations, and that it has a very negative emotional impact on his wife. As a person who has been starved, I do understand deprivation.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Depending on Love Language, he might not have been a verbal guy, and thus pretty much unable to give them in verbal form/some form she recognised.


I purchased the book and had it mailed directly to my husband. So he doubled down on giving me HIS love languages. He kept doing tasks for me because those are his top LL. Yet remained absolutely silent on word of affirmation. I explained many times that his LL was how he felt love and my LL are how I feel loved, therefore I give you your LL to make you feel loved and you give me my LL. Still...silence.

He was unable to give words of affirmation. He could not even say I love you. And he absolutely resented being told, by me during frustrated fits of anger, that there was something wrong with a person who cannot connect feelings with words! And because he resented it, he refused to change it.

Now, he is much better! His vocabulary has improved...because I've given him the words. That was his excuse for a very long time. "I don't know what to say, I don't know what you want to hear. Tell me what you want me to say." And for the longest time I refused because if I gave him the words I wanted to hear from him, and he then memorized the words and parroted them back, those words would become meaningless from him. He refused to learn the words to learn how to compliment and I refused to give him the words. 

Then I gave in and gave him the words and prompted him to compliment and just as I warned, they are now meaningless from him. "You can't say it if you don't think it, and you don't think it because you don't feel it." How could I believe he thought it or felt it? How could I believe that when I told him what to say and when to say it he felt it? 

Finally his therapist told him, and he heard from other women in group therapy, and he conceded that he needed to learn to compliment his wife.

I no longer care. If I need to hear unprompted words of affirmation I go elsewhere. Home Depot is the best place to go for that. 

Now I work on believing him. It was such a drawn out battle, with so much else going on to further complicate things I have decided that my marriage is good enough. I have decided to believe he feels love and believe he feels what he is saying.

God I really didn't want to go down memory lane.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I no longer care. If I need to hear unprompted words of affirmation I go elsewhere. Home Depot is the best place to go for that.


I am really interested in how you get words of affirmation from Home Depot ??


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> I am really interested in how you get words of affirmation from Home Depot ??


Just walking up and down the aisles and smiling. The men who work there show marked interest. Other customers do also. 

When I need it, I pay attention to how other men react to me. When I don't need it, I don't recognize how other men react to me.

Keep in mind, I don't wear bras.... >


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Compliments can have an inverted response if the person receiving is not conducive to receive these.

Yesterday we went cycling and I noticed wifey was wearing her new cycling pants and jersey, which were pretty much painted on . For a nearly 57 year old or for any age she looked spectacular. Any NormalPeople woman would have appreciated a complement, but in the realm of NotNormalPeople, such things are largely counterproductive.

Also this is cultural, to some extent, as her culture is known to grossly over complement anyone and anything.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> I am really interested in how you get words of affirmation from Home Depot ??


There's this Middle East chick, hijab and all, working in our store sooooo


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> She shared something about her relationship with her husband.. something intimate. My take on it is that she was sharing an example out of her own life of how two people can just miss the mark with each other, mostly because of lack of good communication. Isn't sharing and working through issues like this part of what TAM is for?




Absolutely!!!!! BUT her takeaway was that he somehow screwed up! I'm glad she understood - years later - that her emotional response was actually from within, but she still seemed to drag her H into a blame game. 

I know it's hard to see ourselves clearly. I am as much or more guilty than the next guy. I believe if she saw more clearly, even this many years later, she would have added "and I now realize that I didn't know how to hear a complement when it was offers rd in such an indirect way." But alas, I fear she hasn't learned that which is sad if her H still communicates this way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I believe she has asked him many times for sincere compliments, and he hasn't/can't/won't give them. It is a real problem in their marriage. The one example she gave doesn't give insight into the huge LACK of compliments from her H that exists in their marriage. He is not a compliment type of guy and it has been a huge issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for that clarification. You're right - that was not obvious. I apologize @Anon Pink and I hope you and H can somehow figure out a happy middle ground.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Just walking up and down the aisles and smiling. The men who work there show marked interest. Other customers do also.
> 
> When I need it, I pay attention to how other men react to me. When I don't need it, I don't recognize how other men react to me.
> 
> Keep in mind, I don't wear bras.... >


I'll give you another twist on it.
Just because you don't get a visual complement from men, don't always think it's because you don't look hot. Sometimes it's BECAUSE you are hot.

Just this morning getting into the elevator, there was a SMOKING HOT woman with some amazing legs who walked in with me. (I mean REALLY attractive!) I did not even look in her direction. Why?
Because it sometimes drives me crazy and I feel like I am not in control of myself. If I can't have it, why torture myself?

It literally pains me.

If I saw you at home depot and caught a glimpse of those hard nips, I would run the other way. :grin2:


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Maybe the pair of you just need to have more relationships with people, or take a more honest look at the level of power in yours. Yes, occasional actual nice people do occur and sometimes they even meet - but consider yourself fortunate and rare.
> 
> I have heard those comments before and normally always about others - often from women whose men folk _worshipped_ them - bought them gifts, spend time, spooned, walked pets, did gardening, worked on the house, helped with preserves, picked up supplies from the store, dutifully poured everything into the house and kids' funds, and her wardrobe.
> 
> The real problem? They weren't equals in the partnership. She saw everything that he did as her entitlement as a wife and mother, and resented his desire for sex; which was the _only_ thing he'd ever asked from her - thus her attitude, that she was just a hole for him. The sad thing is that nothing he could do would ever be enough, because it would always be taken as her due entitlement. In the end he had a PA, and everything blew to hell, she got everything, and he ended up hanging himself, but it was a mercy really because he really did care for her that much and she was the only "bright spot" in his life.


Is it in any way possible for you to believe that there really are people who are kind to each other and do for each other and having rocking sex lives? 

To me, the article reads like it was written by a guy in a sexless marriage who is desperately trying to get across how important sex is to him. There are couples where that problem does not exist, and where the couple enjoys sex together frequently and nobody feels entitled or resentful or deprived, where walking the dog and gardening and working on the house and picking things up from the store are seen simply as things that need to get done rather than it being seen as the husband "helping" his wife as though he is doing those things for HER rather than for US, as though the dog wouldn't need to be walked and the house wouldn't need to be maintained if he were single.

Maybe you need to meet more people, because I know of no relationships where people hang themselves rather than just getting a divorce. If those are the kinds of couples you know, then yes, I can see how you would think the article applies to a majority of relationships rather than feeling very foreign to some of us.


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## CatJayBird (Oct 5, 2015)

kag123 said:


> everytime i read things like this, i come away from them with reinforcement that i am clearly very different than the rest of my gender.


same


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Absolutely!!!!! BUT her takeaway was that he somehow screwed up! I'm glad she understood - years later - that her emotional response was actually from within, but she still seemed to drag her H into a blame game.
> 
> I know it's hard to see ourselves clearly. I am as much or more guilty than the next guy. I believe if she saw more clearly, even this many years later, she would have added "and I now realize that *I didn't know how to hear a complement when it was offers rd in such an indirect way*." But alas, I fear she hasn't learned that which is sad if her H still communicates this way.


I think part of her love language is his speaking it to her directly. It is not just the words, but also the delivery, the leadership in his approach.

AP has said many times that she wants more dominance from him. That must be some sort of love language for her, too.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Personal said:


> In all of the years I have been with my wife she has always enjoyed oral sex frequently and has no problem asking for it either.
> 
> On reading both of those articles, the first thing that comes to mind for me is, *some men and some women have sex lives vastly different from the sex life I have experienced through 28 years.*


In the two years or so that I've been following TAM, every single post of yours is about how your sex life is vastly different from that of most other men.

So, I'm a little surprised that this article had such an effect on you.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

I have had the "no compliment problem" with my husband as well. Of course I could never receive a compliment gracefully so I'm sure after many, "I'm so sure" or eye rolling or "I don't believe you" responses in our early years from me is when he stopped with the compliments. I think men really don't think like woman there fore don't give a compliment that a woman would like to hear. My husband is very hands on, always running his hand up my back over my waist, hips, thighs, and I'm sure he thinks he is giving me a compliment that he thinks I'm attractive by doing this. As a woman though, I think he's trying to tell me he's horny. Going to have to ask him tonight which it is? I know he has told me before he loves the feel of my skin. I took that as a compliment:smile2:


As for the article, I don't think a couples sex life is something we can stereotype as all men think this or all woman want this... People's needs and wants are very different and everybody's life and home situation is very different. I think and it's been said tons on times on here and it's still great advice, communication with your spouse is key. Don't do what the articles say a man or woman wants from sex, find out what your spouse wants and do that.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Anon Pink - wow - I can't believe you laid all that in your H and wrapped it up in an accusation that he doesn't know the proper way to complement you! Just wow.
> 
> If you make meatloaf and he say, wow we should have this more often, would you take that as a failed complement? If so, you might benefit from evaluating your need to hear certain words and phrases in order to ACCEPT s complement.
> 
> ...


While I agree that she took the most negative possible interpretation of his comment (and that's on her), her husband has some responsibility here as well to communicate effectively.

Although, in the mental place she was at the time, if he had said how much he admired the beauty of her naked body, she probably would have thought he was just saying sh!t because he needed to get off and she was the nearest available orifice.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> The part you quoted about oral sex could not be more WRONG for me! I'm honestly astonished so many women (per the article) dislike it!!


Me too, although one girlfriend was sketchy about receiving.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> If you weren't sure what he meant, at least give him the benefit of the doubt.


This.

I would think that in any successful relationship, the benefit of the doubt is a given.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Depending on Love Language, he might not have been a verbal guy, and thus pretty much unable to give them in verbal form/some form she recognised.


It's the job of each partner to be able to communicate to their partner using the partner's love language. 

Just saying "it's not who I am" doesn't give anyone a free pass.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> It's the job of each partner to be able to communicate to their partner using the partner's love language.
> 
> Just saying "it's not who I am" doesn't give anyone a free pass.


Well, you should certainly try to use their love language, but if it's a language you don't speak (and have a block about learning), you won't be very good at it and probably will be inconsistent as well. Sometimes, it just means you're incompatible, and can't bridge the communications gap. Then you need to decide if you should be together, or if the poor communication leads to too much resentment to make it worthwhile staying.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

norajane said:


> To me, the article reads like it was written by a guy in a sexless marriage who is desperately trying to get across how important sex is to him. There are couples where that problem does not exist, and where the couple enjoys sex together frequently and nobody feels entitled or resentful or deprived


Sure. There are lots of happy couples having sex.

I would assume that the intended audience of the article (written by a female psychiatrist) is women and men that are having issues with sex.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Sure. There are lots of happy couples having sex.
> 
> I would assume that the intended audience of the article (written by a female psychiatrist) is women and men that are having issues with sex.


Unfortunately, that is actually not her intention and not how she wrote it. Her opening paragraph in no way specifies it's for people having problems, but for "women" and that this is what "women think is normal sexually." 



> In my follow up post to What Men Think About Sex Versus Reality, I will now tackle what women think is normal sexually, which includes some pretty incorrect assumptions. Thankfully you have your friendly neighborhood blogger slash psychologist to dispel these myths right now. Get ready to email your wife and tell her she’s wrong, because that usually goes well.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Well, you should certainly try to use their love language, but if it's a language you don't speak (and have a block about learning), you won't be very good at it and probably will be inconsistent as well. Sometimes, it just means you're incompatible, and can't bridge the communications gap. Then you need to decide if you should be together, or if the poor communication leads to too much resentment to make it worthwhile staying.


My love language was words of affirmation. My husband, not good with words, not overly romantic but he would be overwhelmed with trying to give me these words of affirmation as he though I wanted love poems, and songs with grand gesture. He would be lost before he even started. We talked about it one night and he told me how he felt and I laughed so hard. He's struggling to write poetry and all I wanted was a text during the day that say I love you,a note in the morning telling me I'm beautiful, and to hold my hand for no reason. Totally miscommunication and if I had not cleared up my expectations he probably would have stopped trying and I would have felt like he wasn't giving me what I need. Doing these things do not come naturally to him, and he does have to consciously make an effort to remember and the fact that he makes that effort makes me love him even more, and I make more of an effort on my part to break out of my comfort zone when it comes to the things he wants.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> It's the job of each partner to be able to communicate to their partner using the partner's love language.
> 
> Just saying "it's not who I am" doesn't give anyone a free pass.


I want to agree with you, but part of my brain says - well that's just who they are, and you picked that person, so tough sh.it. This is just an area where you and your spouse are not a good match. 

I get stuck on the whole idea of "I want you to WANT to do it." There are a thousand things I could ask my H to do that fall under this category. I stop short because I don't want him to do it because I asked him to...I want it be done naturally. And that is not going to happen.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> Men blame their wives for their own problems as well. It's human nature to blame the closes person.
> 
> Your claim that the only way that a woman feeling that she's just feeling like the closest available orifice is if he is using violence is a crock.
> 
> ...


 You say husband here.. but couldn't it also be true that for many women.. she had PRIOR BF's or sexual experiences where these men may have treated her like this.....it's not easy to erase our prior experiences (it's like that with trust.. if one has been betrayed... Trust becomes very difficult for these people.. this is just another area, if mistreated sexually, it can mess with our perception of how another man may feel or his intentions)...

Hopefully we go on to marry a man who wasn't like that... who attaches love & emotion with sex.. who truly does care about our pleasure -but this may not occur to us as it's not been our prior experience.. with others.. 

Men can be all over the map here.. some Use, some TAKE.. some care more about her pleasure ... it would be awfully unfair to a man who really did care, even his trying to show it.. if she couldn't grasp it or even learned to shut him out - due to prior mistreatment ....


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

simplyamorous said:


> you say husband here.. But couldn't it also be true that for many women.. She had prior bf's or sexual experiences where these men may have treated her like this.....it's not easy to erase our prior experiences (it's like that with trust.. If one has been betrayed... Trust becomes very difficult for these people.. This is just another area, if mistreated sexually, it can mess with our perception of how another man may feel or his intentions)...
> 
> Hopefully we go on to marry a man who wasn't like that... Who attaches love & emotion with sex.. Who truly does care about our pleasure -but this may not occur to us as it's not been our prior experience.. With others..
> 
> Men can be all over the map here.. Some use, some take.. Some care more about her pleasure ... It would be awfully unfair to a man who really did care, even his trying to show it.. If she couldn't grasp it or even learned to shut him out - due to prior mistreatment ....


+1000.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I want to agree with you, but part of my brain says - well that's just who they are, and you picked that person, so tough sh.it. This is just an area where you and your spouse are not a good match.
> 
> I get stuck on the whole idea of "I want you to WANT to do it." There are a thousand things I could ask my H to do that fall under this category. I stop short because I don't want him to do it because I asked him to...I want it be done naturally. And that is not going to happen.


If we're just going to communicate to our SO using the love language language that works for us (i.e. I'm showing her how much I love her by having sex with her and she's showing me how much she loves me by keeping a neat house), then we're just totally dependent on everyone pairing up perfectly in the first place (which could be tough because I think men and women have different proportions of each love language).

If I love my wife, i WANT to let her know it in a way that she'll understand. If she's 'Words of Affirmation' and I don't naturally give them, i WANT to make the effort because I want her to know and appreciate how I feel about her. 

So some few couples might be perfectly matched and get everything they want from their partner without asking.

The rest need to make an effort if they want to be happily married.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *You say husband here.. *but couldn't it also be true that for many women.. she had PRIOR BF's or sexual experiences where these men may have treated her like this.....it's not easy to erase our prior experiences (it's like that with trust.. if one has been betrayed... Trust becomes very difficult for these people.. this is just another area, if mistreated sexually, it can mess with our perception of how another man may feel or his intentions)...
> 
> Hopefully we go on to marry a man who wasn't like that... who attaches love & emotion with sex.. who truly does care about our pleasure -but this may not occur to us as it's not been our prior experience.. with others..
> 
> Men can be all over the map here.. some Use, some TAKE.. some care more about her pleasure ... it would be awfully unfair to a man who really did care, even his trying to show it.. if she couldn't grasp it or even learned to shut him out - due to prior mistreatment ....


You might want to go back and read the post to which I replied and then reread what I posted DIRECTED AT THAT ONE POST. Apparently you missed the fact that I was replying to a man who was stating that women are always the problem. 

Did you reply to that poster? Did you object to what he said? Or are you ok with him placing all blame on women? Did you ask him if what he said could also be true of men? Why don't you do that instead of trying to make it look like I was blaming men and letting women off the hook?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> You might want to go back and read the post to which I replied and then reread what I posted DIRECTED AT THAT ONE POST. Apparently you missed the fact that I was replying to a man who was stating that women are always the problem.
> 
> Did you reply to that poster? Did you object to what he said? Or are you ok with him placing all blame on women? Did you ask him if what he said could also be true of men? Why don't you do that instead of trying to make it look like I was blaming men and letting women off the hook?


 No.. I didn't follow the context of what he said as closely as I should have.. I apologize for that... 

He was saying something about the SuperEgo/Id complex... I would never agree with anyone who suggested it's always on the woman...of course not ! There are using A-holes out there - I have seen those types.. Gawd Elegirl if you even think I would defend such men.. you do NOT know me or what I am about in the least way.. 

I just think anytime we are treated badly.. it has an effect on us, it has the power to mess with our outlook on intimacy like this.. I wasn't even trying to take sides on this.. just an observation..


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> No.. I didn't follow the context of what he said as closely as I should have.. I apologize for that...
> 
> He was saying something about the SuperEgo/Id complex... I would never agree with anyone who suggested it's always on the woman...of course not ! There are using A-holes out there - I have seen those types.. *Gawd Elegirl if you even think I would defend such men.. you do NOT know me or what I am about in the least way.. *
> 
> I just think anytime we are treated badly.. it has an effect on us, it has the power to mess with our outlook on intimacy like this.. I wasn't even trying to take sides on this.. just an observation..



I do not appreciate having what I said twisted.... would you please edit your post and remove the part that makes is sound like I was saying that men always at fault.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Daisy12 said:


> My love language was words of affirmation. My husband, not good with words, not overly romantic but he would be overwhelmed with trying to give me these words of affirmation as he though I wanted love poems, and songs with grand gesture. He would be lost before he even started. We talked about it one night and he told me how he felt and I laughed so hard. He's struggling to write poetry and all I wanted was a text during the day that say I love you,a note in the morning telling me I'm beautiful, and to hold my hand for no reason. Totally miscommunication and if I had not cleared up my expectations he probably would have stopped trying and I would have felt like he wasn't giving me what I need. Doing these things do not come naturally to him, and he does have to consciously make an effort to remember and the fact that he makes that effort makes me love him even more, and I make more of an effort on my part to break out of my comfort zone when it comes to the things he wants.



I think many men are about the grand gesture (even if it isn't so grand) - personally I put it down to competitive nature of mating desire and similar traits which success is "big" (noticable, worthy of praise).... and also down to try and impress others (Freud would say his Mum...). Hence the big date, the avoidance of repetitive chores, and the seeking of notice/approval (yay, you did the dishes...)

So he tries to interpret to interpret your love language in his languages. lol. great stuff.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> *high defined as thinking about sex frequently and wanting to actually have sex once every 36-48 hours. Very high defined as "Oh, God, I can't move. Please, MJ, water..."


For me "high" is defined as morning and night. Very high, was around 4-8 times/24hrs.

Strange how peoples' unspoken interpretations differ


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> But that's not what he said. His exact words were "I wish you did that at night." Trying to understand how you and others see those words as a compliment?


1) He's watching you and smiling
2) He likes you.

Another point to also remember: as we get older our voices thicken and deepen, and our hearing also isn't as crisp and tends to shift tones downwards. As couples get older, non-verbal audio cues tend to get misread , so a; "I #wish# you did *that* at _night  " becomes a "I wish _you_ would do that at night" , and also the brain orientates strongly on personal directives (our names, social patterns we identify with, terms such as "you") giving them a higher analytic value. With non-verbals; the emphasis can be "wish", "that" (verbal tone, visual direction, open movement, focal point, distance).... but when the voice and hearing start to deteriorate the brain tends put emphasis on "you", "that" without any tonals that show appreciation, but focal point/distance then become accusatory, and the open movement is then one of expectation and authority (no coverup/risk shielding with body/furniture/profile protections). So it's not surprising you heard it as you did, and if you find your partner is being critical a lot, then do consider a hearing test - Evolution doesn't design bodies for long term use past reproduction, so very small differences likes tones past 40yrs can really mess things up.

Hopefully I've established myself enough as a non-bulls...er, for people to consider what I've said. And that it's not some kind of fence sitting/apologetics on either side.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> God I really didn't want to go down memory lane.


I appreciate the effort.

It does help to have _actual_ experiences out there. Your post while uncomfortable, isn't from an edited/fantasy position (eg interpreted from a book). It's an honest straight up evaluation of what happens. That's real stuff that other people still stuck in that place, or who see others stuck in the same way, can relate to and find a path forwards - things they can't do from fantasies or "not quite true" book anecdotes. That's the stuff that _helps_ people.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> While I agree that she took the most negative possible interpretation of his comment (and that's on her), her husband has some responsibility here as well to communicate effectively.
> 
> Although, in the mental place she was at the time, if he had said how much he admired the beauty of her naked body, she probably would have thought he was just saying sh!t because he needed to get off and she was the nearest available orifice.


Yes... and no.

You can ask good communicators to dumb down; but there's no point asking bad communicators to be better than they are, certainly not without a lot of retraining and practice.

I'd like to see the worlds' communications skills to improve..but really what can we do, and the higher we set the bar, the more complex and the longer it takes to meet even the minimums. c.f. People used to go to university to learn how to do long division, but now it's taught in elementary schools. Great that lots of people can now do the skill, but the level to even qualify for college is well beyond what it was, thus splitting the good [expectations] from the poor even further than ever. And while I can hope for such things, I have my own yard to clean up first.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

norajane said:


> Is it in any way possible for you to believe that there really are people who are kind to each other and do for each other and having rocking sex lives?
> 
> To me, the article reads like it was written by a guy in a sexless marriage who is desperately trying to get across how important sex is to him. There are couples where that problem does not exist, and where the couple enjoys sex together frequently and nobody feels entitled or resentful or deprived, where walking the dog and gardening and working on the house and picking things up from the store are seen simply as things that need to get done rather than it being seen as the husband "helping" his wife as though he is doing those things for HER rather than for US, as though the dog wouldn't need to be walked and the house wouldn't need to be maintained if he were single.
> 
> Maybe you need to meet more people, because I know of no relationships where people hang themselves rather than just getting a divorce. If those are the kinds of couples you know, then yes, I can see how you would think the article applies to a majority of relationships rather than feeling very foreign to some of us.


My interaction with those groups is common.
Oh she did divorce him, it was about 18 months later he hung himself. She was literally everything bright in his life, even talking to other women was hugely painful for him as every contact with a woman felt like he was having an affair/cheating on his ex, and he knew he was totally to blame for the affair that cost him everything, so that guilt hit him like a sledgehammer. While the legally required statement is that he didn't disclose any self-harm intentions, every sign was there when I talked with him 3 months before his end. And while I did try to encourage him to move forwards, sometimes such things happen, his mental state was under constant bombardment, but he was caught in a destructive cycle where trying to put matters behind him felt like gaslightling/lying again, triggering the cycle again. Personally, I think the meds he was on tended to remove consequences/anxiety thus allowing him to lock himself in the repeating pattern without impetous to change, and eventually helped him carry through the hanging (as that particular type tends to suppress the brains ability to reconcile consequences via alternatives). But I'm was exposed to this a religious elder, not as a professional drugpusher/counsellor, so I can act only as soundingboard/mentor in such matters.

also I tend to be there listen through a lot of relationships (another effect of polyamory, is being around relationship discussions; doubles and mores). also something that tends to get picked up as a good businessperson/director/manager/saleperson. Ones learn to look past the surface, see the trades, see the positions and the words not said... and hear the accusations afterwards when the happy veneer is ripped away


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

kag123 said:


> I want to agree with you, but part of my brain says - well that's just who they are, and you picked that person, so tough sh.it. This is just an area where you and your spouse are not a good match.
> 
> I get stuck on the whole idea of "I want you to WANT to do it." There are a thousand things I could ask my H to do that fall under this category. I stop short because I don't want him to do it because I asked him to...I want it be done naturally. And that is not going to happen.


There is a line between managing ones partner, and communicating. If you don't communicate how is he supposed to know? (and don't you dare later blame him for not knowing, or not providing, if you never communicated it)


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Me too, although one girlfriend was sketchy about receiving.


In some cases that is created by media & upbringing.

Constant exposure lets her believe that men really really do like it, and it's something really special (and for modern teens & presidents, "not having sex"/non-committing),

While at the same time not being comfortable with her own body/other people "owning" her body/not feeling comfortable with body sensation/past experiences sensitising her sexually (especially regarding sex - which happens with some f...ing perverts, who unwilling to get charged with rape (or mentally see themselves as rapists) use oral on minors/ disliking her own bodily wastes/ or just feeling or being taught it is a dirty place, end up thinking that really men don't like going "down" there/doing that, and finding herself uncomfortable with "a pervert" who does like gross stuff.

so she'll do it to be special to him, but can't even handle a guy who wants to do it to her. When one breaks down the process behind the feelings, it tends to make a lot of sense.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You say husband here.. but couldn't it also be true that for many women.. she had PRIOR BF's or sexual experiences where these men may have treated her like this.....it's not easy to erase our prior experiences (it's like that with trust.. if one has been betrayed... Trust becomes very difficult for these people.. this is just another area, if mistreated sexually, it can mess with our perception of how another man may feel or his intentions)...



While your point about broken trust leaching into subsequent relationships is very good, it cannot be extrapolated to sex. A woman may think men suck in bed because she's had 1 or 2 lousy lovers, but it only takes one decent lover to turn that frown upside down and now she knows what to look for, insist upon, and not settle for anything less.

This is one of those areas where a lack of experience with other men makes it difficult to understand and contextualize how those experiences fit into the greater learning curve.




> Hopefully we go on to marry a man who wasn't like that... who attaches love & emotion with sex.. who truly does care about our pleasure -but this may not occur to us as it's not been our prior experience.. with others..


Ideally yes. But I know from my own friends, a woman in love makes all kinds of excuses and downplays the importance of various deficits ...because she's in love.



> Men can be all over the map here.. some Use, some TAKE.. some care more about her pleasure ... it would be awfully unfair to a man who really did care, even his trying to show it.. if she couldn't grasp it or even learned to shut him out - due to prior mistreatment ....



That may be true wrt trust issues, but a good lover is a good lover is a good lover. Ringing bells is ringing bells. No woman is going to get up the next morning walking funny with a lopsided smile on her face and think he had nothing to do with it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> 1) He's watching you and smiling
> 2) He likes you.


He wasn't smiling.

When the event happened, we had been married for about two years, in our early 20's. But your point about hearing inflections and emphasis on one word which changes the whole meaning is an excellent point regardless.



> Another point to also remember: as we get older our voices thicken and deepen, and our hearing also isn't as crisp and tends to shift tones downwards. As couples get older, non-verbal audio cues tend to get misread , so a; "I #wish# you did *that* at _night  " becomes a "I wish _you_ would do that at night" , and also the brain orientates strongly on personal directives (our names, social patterns we identify with, terms such as "you") giving them a higher analytic value. With non-verbals; the emphasis can be "wish", "that" (verbal tone, visual direction, open movement, focal point, distance).... but when the voice and hearing start to deteriorate the brain tends put emphasis on "you", "that" without any tonals that show appreciation, but focal point/distance then become accusatory, and the open movement is then one of expectation and authority (no coverup/risk shielding with body/furniture/profile protections). So it's not surprising you heard it as you did, and if you find your partner is being critical a lot, then do consider a hearing test - Evolution doesn't design bodies for long term use past reproduction, so very small differences likes tones past 40yrs can really mess things up.
> 
> Hopefully I've established myself enough as a non-bulls...er, for people to consider what I've said. And that it's not some kind of fence sitting/apologetics on either side.





spotthedeaddog said:


> I appreciate the effort.
> 
> It does help to have _actual_ experiences out there. Your post while uncomfortable, isn't from an edited/fantasy position (eg interpreted from a book). It's an honest straight up evaluation of what happens. That's real stuff that other people still stuck in that place, or who see others stuck in the same way, can relate to and find a path forwards - things they can't do from fantasies or "not quite true" book anecdotes. That's the stuff that _helps_ people.


:smile2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The article didn't really resonate with me. I've never felt like the man I was with wasn't attracted to me (because the men I've been with have conveyed that they are attracted to me very well). 

I've never felt that sex wasn't a loving act for the men I've been with, because I could feel the love between us and it was obvious he did, too (when within a committed relationship). 

Initiating...never really felt this one...even when I've been the one who initiates more (but granted, if I was with a man who didn't ever initiate, I would feel resentful, so I don't have any experience in that one). 

Watching porn, never felt this made a man disgusting, though depending on the type of porn a man was watching, it could make me think that. 

They watch porn because they want crazy stuff in bed...doing crazy things in bed is fun for me, so never felt that one, either.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Also I note in one of the items in the article it states that "men are very visual".
> 
> From research I have done and seen, and observation and anecdote, that's untrue.
> 
> ...




So nice to finally hear a man say this.

I don't think women are "more" visual necessarily. But I do think women are equally visual.

We can get really excited looking at fully clothed men. Most women didn't grow up looking at nude male centerfolds in magazines.


All the "Tiger Beat" magazines of TV actors and rock stars we stared at, showed guys partially clothed (maybe shirtless) , but we'd gaze at those pics for hours.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> The article didn't really resonate with me. I've never felt like the man I was with wasn't attracted to me (because the men I've been with have conveyed that they are attracted to me very well).
> 
> I've never felt that sex wasn't a loving act for the men I've been with, because I could feel the love between us and it was obvious he did, too (when within a committed relationship).
> 
> ...


I would agree with you here. I have never met a woman who felt like these examples. Honestly never heard of it until I came here to TAM. To me seems like a warped view of sex and intimacy, perhaps something to do with self esteem ?

I couldn't really relate to the guy examples either lol


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My ex was like the article, in several ways (and I dated a few like that after her). That contributed to her becoming an ex, of course. Fortunately, I met many women who did not think in these ways.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > The article didn't really resonate with me. I've never felt like the man I was with wasn't attracted to me (because the men I've been with have conveyed that they are attracted to me very well).
> ...


I wonder if it's a generational thing. Perhaps older men and women were more likely to have these misconceptions and younger generations won't so much. Though I'm old...I just didn't get those memos. But it seems like women my age and older would be more likely to think the things in that article. Not sure though and not sure how to find out. 

Hey I bet if we invited the author here she would sign on and answer our questions about what age group these women most represent plus other questions. I can't do it from work right but maybe some one else can?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Daisy12 said:


> My love language was words of affirmation. My husband, not good with words, not overly romantic but he would be overwhelmed with trying to give me these words of affirmation as he though I wanted love poems, and songs with grand gesture. He would be lost before he even started. We talked about it one night and he told me how he felt and I laughed so hard. He's struggling to write poetry and all I wanted was a text during the day that say I love you,a note in the morning telling me I'm beautiful, and to hold my hand for no reason. Totally miscommunication and if I had not cleared up my expectations he probably would have stopped trying and I would have felt like he wasn't giving me what I need. Doing these things do not come naturally to him, and he does have to consciously make an effort to remember and the fact that he makes that effort makes me love him even more, and I make more of an effort on my part to break out of my comfort zone when it comes to the things he wants.


As a guy who used (operative) to write poetry for my wife, this made me chuckle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I read both articles, and it's striking to me how many men love the one linked while so many women seem to hate it. 

The title kind of sets it up for that though--what your gender believes versus reality. 

I'll confess also that there are things she writes in the one directed at men that are painful for me to confront and swallow, so I can totally understand the reaction. But then, that's kind of the point, isn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> I can't relate to the male description, likewise in all of my sexual relationships I haven't been with any woman who resembles the female description either.
> 
> In my experience women really do love sex with variety and aren't shy about it either.


That's because you live in Backwards-Land, where steering wheels are on the wrong side of the car, Christmas is in the summer, and the toilet flushes the wrong way.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> That's because you live in Backwards-Land, where steering wheels are on the wrong side of the car, Christmas is in the summer, and the toilet flushes the wrong way.


There is even a joke among HD female scientists in the southern hemisphere that have trouble finding a sexually compatible male partner. 



> In Antartica the odds are good, but the goods are odd!


I forget what the ratio of men to women actually is in Antartica, but basically each woman has her pick from about twenty or more desperate male scientists that are lonely and secluded from the rest of the world. 

Here is a photo of the Australian team in Antartica!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> There is even a joke among HD female scientists in the southern hemisphere that have trouble finding a sexually compatible male partner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one in the holiday themed hat though...


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