# Asexuality



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I found a definition of asexuality from this site's faq: 

General FAQ | Asexual Visibility and Education Network

Does anyone know of any other good information on defining/diagnosing asexuality?

My wife and I have been talking things over, and we'd like to rule this out as a possible diagnosis for my wife... or sadly confirm it if it's true. 

I'll likely bring this up with our ST when I meet with her this next week.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm INTJ so I'm on a forum for this personality type. They are mostly young people but there are more than few there that claim to be asexual. This topic comes up often.

Might be of some help to you to read how real people who are like this feel and see if there is any correlation. Once you sign up you can do a search and just read. 

INTJ Forum

Be warned though. This isn't a friendly type forum like TAM. There are many there that are brutal. I like reading it because it assures me I'm not the only weirdo out there. I outgrew the brutal part....they haven't. LOL


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Mavash, I'll check it out.

If anyone else has some experience or more information, I'd be eager to hear it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Interesting. First time I've heard of an intj asexuality link. I'm intj. Although my j is like 55 j 45 p.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> I found a definition of asexuality from this site's faq:
> 
> General FAQ | Asexual Visibility and Education Network
> 
> ...


Being in the business of English, I would say... hetero is other, **** is akin to same as in man with man or woman with woman, and asexual is a human without need of anyone to fulfill a desire, complacent to sexual desire with no other. Sexually dead, frigid, dried up...It is all Greek to me.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

workingonme said:


> interesting. First time i've heard of an intj asexuality link. I'm intj. Although my j is like 55 j 45 p.


what !?! ???


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
You have been incredibly patient. It is time to have a low key conversation with your W about what a diagnosis of "asexuality" would mean. 

For me it would mean that the love of my life does not want to have sex with me. If she didn't feel obligated, she wouldn't. 

And my answer to that has been the same (this has come up 2-3 times in 22 years): Babe, I don't want you to do something intimate like that, which you dislike. Lets take all the pressure off you - to do something you don't want. And lets acknowledge a few key things:
- I expect you to get a job and work as hard as possible given the schedule constraints of the kid schedules. This won't be fun, but will put on on a more level playing field.
- Until you say otherwise our sex life is completely over. We can kiss and hug. We can spoon in bed. But thats it. No sex of any type.
- We both know celibacy is a non-option for me. So I will be finding an alternative that works for me. I will be discreet, and you need not to pry. 

I love you, am committed to you, and think this gives our marriage the best long term chance of success. 

I would NOT divorce my W over sex. I would insist that we open the marriage. 




Browncoat said:


> I found a definition of asexuality from this site's faq:
> 
> General FAQ | Asexual Visibility and Education Network
> 
> ...


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Browncoat,

Interesting. After a discussion with my wife yesterday I am really beginning to have the same questions...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Deciding on what to diagnose your wife as seems like a nonstarter.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Runs Like Dog,

I'm not sure that is entirely true. If I now the true basis of our "issue" then we might be able to attack it differently. Maybe even as something like MEM suggests.

I love my wife and if I knew that she was truly asexual it might help in coming up with some ways to get on with our lives by removing that problem without divorce. Not absolutely sure it is possible but at least we could approach the problem differently instead of us trying to "fix" her.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Let's see if we are on the same page. Here is what concerns me about my wife:

Doesn't/won't masturbate (not even as "play" with me).

Has ZERO fantasies.

Like yours, doesn't find anything "sexy". Not me, not other men, nothing. Rarely even comments on attractive actors/athletes/etc.

Has no interest in teasing/foreplay/"building up". Seems to enjoy it once there (yes she orgasms and yes I KNOW she does  ) but doesn't like to take time building up to the act or in the act itself.

To me just generally seems to scoff at the subject of sex anymore. Whether it comes up as discussion/joking with friends, catching something on TV, you name it. I was watching something on the Science Channel the other night about the science of attraction and she even kind of balked at that. WTF? :scratchhead:

BTW, before you all wonder why I married her. This is all mostly post children, she has not always been like this (or at least acted differently in the early years of our relationship).


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Brown:
I do think it is important that you figure out if your wife is asexual, because that will help you formulate a strategy for dealing with the problem. You both love each other, so suggesting that you look outside your marriage for sexual satisfaction is not the way to address the issue. You want to make love to your wife, not to any warm hole for sexual satisfaction.

From the way that you have described your wife, I am sure that she wants to solve this problem in a loving manner. Even if she does not feel desire, she will still want to meet your needs. If you can address the pain issue, she will be free to consider how to become aroused.

It may take romance novels or movies to pique her desire. It may take her thinking about how much she loves you and your children. Even if she never feels desire, she can enjoy giving you pleasure. I encourage you to look for solutions together.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Let's see if we are on the same page. Here is what concerns me about my wife:
> 
> Doesn't/won't masturbate (not even as "play" with me).
> 
> ...


Damnnnn Frustr sounds like you are describing my wife the past 3-4 years and she's become one of thee most UN-HORNIEST(if that's a word)women around, but she is unable to have children so that's not part of the issue with her I don't think. It practically takes heart starting paddles to get her privates moving and in the "mood" for sex everytime. *sigh*


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Let's see if we are on the same page. Here is what concerns me about my wife:
> 
> Doesn't/won't masturbate (not even as "play" with me).


She will masturbate once in a while, but it's typically just to help me... because I enjoy watching her be pleased. She never does it alone anymore. I asked her about this and it's been years and years (maybe even a decade?) since she did it on her own.



frustr8dhubby said:


> Has ZERO fantasies.


I've asked at different times, and in different ways. Nothing.



frustr8dhubby said:


> Like yours, doesn't find anything "sexy". Not me, not other men, nothing. Rarely even comments on attractive actors/athletes/etc.


We got into a conversation the other night, which is part of what got me seriously thinking if she might be asexual. I asked what she finds sexy. I've asked on multiple days now, trying to give her time between to think about it. She can't come up with anything.

I asked her about any scenes in movies where men did/said/acted in a way that was sexy. Nothing.

I asked if when she was at the mall and see saw pictures of men in various outfits outside clothing stores (either suited up or partially naked like outside of jean shops). Nothing.

She has said that over our 15 years she has found one other man's voice attractive. But it was only his voice. She's assured me she doesn't dislike my voice, so it's not like I annoy her. It's just that that's the closest thing to sexy she has found that she can remember. She's been thinking about this a lot due to therapy the past few weeks too. So it is what it is.

Now don't get me wrong, all of this was done out of love. This wasn't a fight or anything, just us talking frankly like we normally do.



frustr8dhubby said:


> Has no interest in teasing/foreplay/"building up". Seems to enjoy it once there (yes she orgasms and yes I KNOW she does  ) but doesn't like to take time building up to the act or in the act itself.


My wife likes to be aroused by me. She's always enjoyed that. While we were dating she thought she was sexually excited, now we are wondering if it was just arousal. When dating we used to lay down with full clothing on the sofa and kiss. We did that sometimes for an hour or two. So yeah it got pretty exciting. Looking back on it though, it may have just been the arousal she experienced and not really any true sexual desire. She said that after I left for the night she never felt the need to masturbate or really felt much of anything.

These days she will perform oral sex on me, but it's mostly because she knows it reduces the time it takes me to climax. It's more about a means to an end. She doesn't mind it so much, until her jaw gets sore. That's about it though.

She likes me performing oral sex on her, but again that's just arousal.

She does enjoy being aroused and having orgasms, but she doesn't really enjoy sex per se. It's not sexy no matter what I do, say or w/e. There's no enjoyment of sex just because. There's only the enjoyment of being aroused and climaxing for her. She is happy when I get off, but it's not sexual really. Kind of like: "oh that's nice honey I'm glad you got off... yep that's nice".




frustr8dhubby said:


> To me just generally seems to scoff at the subject of sex anymore. Whether it comes up as discussion/joking with friends, catching something on TV, you name it. I was watching something on the Science Channel the other night about the science of attraction and she even kind of balked at that. WTF? :scratchhead:


Fortunately my wife has a sweet and gracious attitude towards sex because she does love me and she knows I want it... frankly need it.

Sorry your wife's heart attitude is the way it is, that must be really painful to deal with. 



frustr8dhubby said:


> BTW, before you all wonder why I married her. This is all mostly post children, she has not always been like this (or at least acted differently in the early years of our relationship).


Unfortunately for me, my wife has always been this way.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I suppose. My blushing bride is like that. And similarly is actually offended at portrayals of any sort of affection in the movies or TV unless it's some childish romanticized rom-com thing. She also appears to simply hate men, to the point where yesterday she had on an ID TV show about a woman who murdered her husband for money because he had MS and then concocted a story he ran away and 'became' gay and my wife thought that was morally and rationally ok. To me, at least, it's not worth attempting to explain. Maybe they could become militant 'feminist' burqa wearing terrorists or something.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Not that you were suggesting this Runs like Dog, but I thought I'd cover it here anyway.

My wife is definitely not gay. I've asked her (again kindly, just curious) if she thought she might be gay... if that could be the problem. She's assured me up and down she doesn't find woman attractive and has no desire to be with one.

I've asked her that question around a half dozen times over to the years. Each time with basically the same firm answer of no.

If she was lesbian, while that would be very hard to deal with for me... at least it would explain things. Just not the case for us.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Maybe. Then she's actually as miserable as you are.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a completely different take on this now. My best friend claimed to be anti sex and what she really meant was she didn't have chemistry with her husband. After leaving him (married 10 years) she's found a boy toy and is now having a sexual awakening. 

Sexual chemistry is either there or it isn't. You can't manufacture it. And arousal is NOT the same as sexual chemistry.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Well I don't want to send the wrong impression. She isn't a cold, frigid b***h it just never enters her head.

Here is how our discussion went down on Sat. afternoon:

Me: "You are my best friend and lover, right?"

Her: "Yes"

Me: "But I cannot talk to you about my desires/fantasies. Like mutual masturbation, using toys on you, anal, threesomes, whatever..."

Her: "But I will never do those things" (mainly anal and threesomes obviously but pretty much any are off the table).

Me: "I am not saying we actually DO them but who else do I talk to about these things.."

Her: silence...

Then we proceed to have a very satisfying round of sex... Uuuggghhh...


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Mavash,

I have thought about that too. But then what do you do about it? Is Divorce really the only option?? Or me going near celibate but that isn't happening.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Mavash,
> 
> I have thought about that too. But then what do you do about it? Is Divorce really the only option?? Or me going near celibate but that isn't happening.


Oh I have no idea I'm just giving my insights. I've been friends with my "I hate sex" friend for 4 years. She used to come to bed with her husband fully covered from head to toe to deter him. Now she's giving the boy toy bj's to completion, having mind blowing orgasms, walks around half naked and banging him in all kinds of naughty places.

She jokes with me that she gets now why I'm HD.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I have a completely different take on this now. My best friend claimed to be anti sex and what she really meant was she didn't have chemistry with her husband. After leaving him (married 10 years) she's found a boy toy and is now having a sexual awakening.
> 
> Sexual chemistry is either there or it isn't. You can't manufacture it. And arousal is NOT the same as sexual chemistry.


Yeah you're 100% right about arousal not being the same as sexual chemistry. Arousal is almost a physiological response to stimulus... sexual chemistry as you call it is from the heart and mind.

I've asked my wife if she ever thought about being with different men, and she would answer me honestly. We have that kind of relationship.

She has assured me she wouldn't be interested... but it's one of those things to be 100% frank that neither of us would know until it happened. By then... well the marriage would be over.

I'm a patient and loving man, but if after 15 years she willingly had sex with another man (while having sex with me has been always been such an issue)... I'm not sure if I have it in me to even attempt to R. I doubt she would ever do it though... so it's more of a hypothetical (one I've considered long before this thread).


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Well I don't want to send the wrong impression. She isn't a cold, frigid b***h it just never enters her head.
> 
> Here is how our discussion went down on Sat. afternoon:
> 
> ...


I tend to save conversations about sex for times when sex isn't on the menu at the moment. I find it creates less tension... but that may just be us.

I'm pretty simple though, I just want her to want me. I want some passion and desire, that's really about it (and for her pains to go away for good).


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> She has assured me she wouldn't be interested... but it's one of those things to be 100% frank that neither of us would know until it happened. By then... well the marriage would be over.


My friend planned on divorcing her husband and staying single for the rest of her life. Still claiming to hate sex.

And then she met the boy toy and that all went out the window. She's still divorcing her husband (he won't let her go but that's a whole other story). And no hubby doesn't know about the boy toy.

What you and your wife have is more of a companionship type love not a sexual one. I applaud your efforts to figure this out before you decide how to proceed. I almost walked out on my husband of 19 years for lack of intimacy and desire. We were having regular sex by then but there was something lacking I could feel it and I didn't like it. I wanted more, was unhappy and was tired of settling.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Loves,
That is exactly right. This is about the desire to please your partner. And of course that is a two way street in and out of bed. As for the "any warm hole" that really stings. I can understand why you say that though I wonder if perhaps you realize how strained this can be for the HD partner with a gate keeping partner who is completely comfortable saying "no" repeatedly - often in the hope their HD partner will give up. 

Alternatively an HD partner in a strong position in the marriage can create (often without realizing It) a lot of stress for their LD partner. I have a lot of restraint, and my W is very giving, even so this is a careful dance we do. Last weekend she was very turned on and we had 3 days in a row of intense connection. This weekend she was kind of off, so after Friday night I made it all about her.

On Saturday night she asked me why I was declining her offer to connect. I replied "just because you can have somethng doesn't mean you should".

Last night more of the same. I love that she is willing, even more that she is not trying to deceive me with a mask of artificial desire. And last night my love and respect for her honesty collided head on with my resentment that she doesn't feel more lust/raw desire. It was mothers day - not the time for a conversation about me. So we had a great day that was all about her. I took care of myself and reassured her that "we" are fine. And Friday when I see her again, we will likely have a night that's all about me.




UOTE=lovesherman;745188]Brown:
I do think it is important that you figure out if your wife is asexual, because that will help you formulate a strategy for dealing with the problem. You both love each other, so suggesting that you look outside your marriage for sexual satisfaction is not the way to address the issue. You want to make love to your wife, not to any warm hole for sexual satisfaction.

From the way that you have described your wife, I am sure that she wants to solve this problem in a loving manner. Even if she does not feel desire, she will still want to meet your needs. If you can address the pain issue, she will be free to consider how to become aroused.

It may take romance novels or movies to pique her desire. It may take her thinking about how much she loves you and your children. Even if she never feels desire, she can enjoy giving you pleasure. I encourage you to look for solutions together.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Brown:
> I do think it is important that you figure out if your wife is asexual, because that will help you formulate a strategy for dealing with the problem. You both love each other, so suggesting that you look outside your marriage for sexual satisfaction is not the way to address the issue. You want to make love to your wife, not to any warm hole for sexual satisfaction.
> 
> From the way that you have described your wife, I am sure that she wants to solve this problem in a loving manner. Even if she does not feel desire, she will still want to meet your needs. If you can address the pain issue, she will be free to consider how to become aroused.
> ...


I didn't reply to this before, just wanted to say that I agree that finding out for sure if she's asexual one way or another is important to us both. Just like you said it will help us figure out how we will go from here.

Divorce isn't an option I want to consider at all. For those of you suggesting it, here's my reason why (besides religious reasons).

Yesterday (Mother's Day) we were having this big meal and I just couldn't help notice yet again just how happy the children and my wife are. I noticed this all the time of course, but I especially notice it when we are all together doing something: church every Sunday, family night on Fridays, dinner every night, etc.

Part of me hurts all the more because I know I'm the only one who is unhappy with life as it is. Yet I know if I act selfishly and step outside the marriage or divorce her all I'll be left with is 6 very unhappy people instead of 1 unhappy person. There's no guarantee in life that I'd ever find someone else new... love between two people doesn't grow on trees. Meanwhile I'll have damaged everything. The whole idea just seems so terribly selfish and damaging.

IDK that's just how I see it.

I should also mention that outside the bedroom, my wife and I really love and enjoy each other so much.

Someone mentioned too that this isn't real love w/o the sexual desire... to an extent I know exactly what you mean. In some ways we are like the best of friends, who live together, raise a family, and sleep together sometimes. Still there's more there than that. It's in how she looks at me, how patient and loving she is with me through the hard times (and the good). There's something to be said for all that... something extremely loving about our relationship despite the lack of mutual passion and desire.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> My friend planned on divorcing her husband and staying single for the rest of her life. Still claiming to hate sex.
> 
> And then she met the boy toy and that all went out the window. She's still divorcing her husband (he won't let her go but that's a whole other story). And no hubby doesn't know about the boy toy.
> 
> What you and your wife have is more of a companionship type love not a sexual one. I applaud your efforts to figure this out before you decide how to proceed. I almost walked out on my husband of 19 years for lack of intimacy and desire. We were having regular sex by then but there was something lacking I could feel it and I didn't like it. I wanted more, was unhappy and was tired of settling.


What a sad story. I feel so terribly for the husband, especially if he ever finds out.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> My friend planned on divorcing her husband and staying single for the rest of her life. Still claiming to hate sex.


If you don't mind me asking, why was she planning on divorcing anyway?


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Loves,
> That is exactly right. This is about the desire to please your partner. And of course that is a two way street in and out of bed. As for the "any warm hole" that really stings. I can understand why you say that though I wonder if perhaps you realize how strained this can be for the HD partner with a gate keeping partner who is completely comfortable saying "no" repeatedly - often in the hope their HD partner will give up.


Mem you are right. It is very painful, and it's something I have to deal with everyday (and it hurts all over again and again).

It gets better at times when the sex is better and more frequent, but like you described later that lasts a few days and just as quickly is gone.




MEM11363 said:


> Alternatively an HD partner in a strong position in the marriage can create (often without realizing It) a lot of stress for their LD partner.


This too is very true. That's something I've had to work on with my wife a lot over the past couple of months. It's changed things for the better between us. The changes are just little things we've now incorporated into our lives, so it doesn't even feel like it takes conscience effort anymore.




MEM11363 said:


> I have a lot of restraint, and my W is very giving, even so this is a careful dance we do.


It's the same for us, but there are times when I find my resolve to restrain weakening. Exercise has helped a lot though. I've also cut off all porn, not that I was ever viewing it much anyway. Not sure if the lack of porn helps but who knows with all the things we are trying now. I don't miss the porn at all, so there's that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
That commitment is a beautiful thing. I have no idea what your day to day is like. What comes across is much more than a "differing drives" issue. The level of unhappiness you express is typically what I associate with a partner who doesn't feel their spouse puts them first, and that includes a mindset of "if this is important to you it's important to me".

It also seems that your sexual physiology (very long endurance) would be hard on a partner with a much lower drive. 

Compounding that is you didn't assert yourself for over a decade. The pent up resentment while understandable puts you in a bad place. For example, if I was home full time I would never consider suggesting a 7 day sex challenge to my wife. It would highlight our current large desire imbalance in a way that would make her feel like a bad wife. Alternatively I fully expect her to continue to be kind and make an effort because that shows she still has the desire to flip that "it's all about you" switch. 

If you can find a compromise you both feel good about - whatever that is - you will not have to feel you are carrying 6 people. 


UOTE=Browncoat;745497]I didn't reply to this before, just wanted to say that I agree that finding out for sure if she's asexual one way or another is important to us both. Just like you said it will help us figure out how we will go from here.

Divorce isn't an option I want to consider at all. For those of you suggesting it, here's my reason why (besides religious reasons).

Yesterday (Mother's Day) we were having this big meal and I just couldn't help notice yet again just how happy the children and my wife are. I noticed this all the time of course, but I especially notice it when we are all together doing something: church every Sunday, family night on Fridays, dinner every night, etc.

Part of me hurts all the more because I know I'm the only one who is unhappy with life as it is. Yet I know if I act selfishly and step outside the marriage or divorce her all I'll be left with is 6 very unhappy people instead of 1 unhappy person. There's no guarantee in life that I'd ever find someone else new... love between two people doesn't grow on trees. Meanwhile I'll have damaged everything. The whole idea just seems so terribly selfish and damaging.

IDK that's just how I see it.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I think you might be mixing Browncoat and myself up. My wife was the one that suggested the 7 Days of Sex challenge and it was her idea not mine.  BTW, it still hasn't happened (what a surprise...)

Though maybe I am wrong.


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## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> I didn't reply to this before, just wanted to say that I agree that finding out for sure if she's asexual one way or another is important to us both. Just like you said it will help us figure out how we will go from here.
> 
> Divorce isn't an option I want to consider at all. For those of you suggesting it, here's my reason why (besides religious reasons).
> 
> ...


Your situation really makes me hurt for you browncoat. You're a good man. I wish I had a solution for you.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MEM to be honest, I feel that sexually we are about as far apart as you can get.

very HD vs very LD
long duration before climax vs short duration
very passionate + strong desire vs .... not much at all.
enjoys sex just for sex vs ... just wanting to make me happy and get off because it's nice to get off

It's all a source of frustration to be certain... really more than that. It's a daily struggle for me. Whenever my drive kicks in, and it tends to kick in multiple times a day... it's just a daily reminder of how disappointed I am with our sex life. Still I remind myself that I love her and my children... and then I try my best to channel myself into something else.

There are days and weeks when I feel things are going just fine. That the compromises we've made are livable, and then at times it just doesn't feel like nearly enough it hurts all over.

I definitely blame myself for taking as long as we did to try and resolve this issue. For the first 12 years or so, it didn't really bother me that much... which made it easier to just sweep this issue under the rug and enjoy the rest of our marriage. Unfortunately something switched and now I feel like my Pandora's box of martial sexual regrets has been opened, and now it can't be closed.  Even still it's taken us 3 years further to get to where we are, and a good bit of that is also my wife dragging her feet a lot. Though over the past few months she's been a lot better in that regard.

Despite all that I'm not angry or bitter with her, just really frustrated, angry and depressed about the situation. The emotions are very strong at times. Most days are fine, but others hit me very hard indeed. There's not a week that goes by where I don't hurt so badly that in private I break down and weep... and throughout my life I'm not one to cry about my own woes at ALL. It doesn't help that I'm unhappy about a lot of other things in my life as well that aren't related to my sex life in the slightest.

Not sure how religious you are, feel free to ignore this last paragraph if you aren't (because I'm not trying to turn this into a religious thread at all). I often times (many times a week) feel like I'm living out a Psalm sometimes (Oh God why is this happening?!?) or wrestling with God like Jacob over the issue. It's hard because I feel like I did things right by not sleeping with my wife before marrying her... and I've ended up in this trial (which we would have found out if we had tried to have sex just once prior to marriage). At times I honestly fear it will have no end, other times I feel hope for the future.

It's just a difficult situation all the way around.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> What a sad story. I feel so terribly for the husband, especially if he ever finds out.


Don't feel bad. He's had other women. He cheated first. She separated from him before she met this other guy so I'm not even sure you can say what she did was cheating. She's been trying desperately to divorce her husband but he won't sign and it's been a year. She's even gone so far as to make other living arrangements and is just waiting on the green light to go (kids are involved). 

They have mediation today and if that doesn't work they go to court on July 19th.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Don't feel bad. He's had other women. He cheated first. She separated from him before she met this other guy so I'm not even sure you can say what she did was cheating. She's been trying desperately to divorce her husband but he won't sign and it's been a year. She's even gone so far as to make other living arrangements and is just waiting on the green light to go (kids are involved).
> 
> They have mediation today and if that doesn't work they go to court on July 19th.


Wow, that's a story that seems to keep getting worse every step of the way.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> I feel like I did things right by not sleeping with my wife before marrying her... and I've ended up in this trial.
> 
> It's just a difficult situation all the way around.


I'm a Christian (wasn't one until I was already married so no I didn't wait) but now I think this waiting stuff is crazy. How do you know in this day in age if you're compatible if you wait? And most women who wait are so sexually repressed that they never seem to get over it. Not all I know so don't any christians blast me. I've know more repressed Christian women than I have open ones. Look it up - that is a fact. 

And it's a difficult decision only because you've allowed it to become one. You've chosen to settle. You've got the big house, the happy family, and the pretty picture. You've decided your wife and kids happiness come before yours. I disagree with that but hey to each his own. 

I once felt like you but I don't anymore. I believe I deserve to be happy just like everyone else. And if 6 people have to be unhappy so be it. On this I disagree with you too. Your kids would get over it. Your wife would move on. People get divorced everyday. It happens. Yes they'd be unhappy but it would pass. It always passes.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Part of me hurts all the more because I know I'm the only one who is unhappy with life as it is. Yet I know if I act selfishly and step outside the marriage or divorce her all I'll be left with is 6 very unhappy people instead of 1 unhappy person. There's no guarantee in life that I'd ever find someone else new... love between two people doesn't grow on trees. Meanwhile I'll have damaged everything. The whole idea just seems so terribly selfish and damaging.


1) Guilt / inferiority regarding your needs (why are your needs inferior to your wife's and your children's).

2) Fear of the unknown (My kids and wife will suffer, I won't be this happy elsewhere?). Why not think that you can thrive regardless, that you might get the kids, and that your wife would not thrive (or in fact be happier in a situation where there was not an undercurrent of negative sexual tension?

3) Scarcity mindset. Why suppose you won't be this happy again? Why not believe that someone wanting you can be found? One thing that I've learned in my relatively short single life is that men willing to share and treasure someone else in their lives are much in demand.

I'm not telling you to act one way or another. But, I would caution that there is a big difference between staying where you are because it legitimately serves your best interests and staying put because you are afraid of moving forward.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> It's hard because I feel like I did things right by not sleeping with my wife before marrying her... and I've ended up in this trial (which we would have found out if we had tried to have sex just once prior to marriage).


The problem is that there are two sides to this sexuality and purity coin. One of these is fairly popular and widely quoted - the other not nearly so.

Yes, Scripture says that we are to not have sex until marriage. And, there are some reasons for this. You don't risk having kids out of wedlock in a generally less-stable relationship. You don't risk letting sexual pleasure judge your assessment of this other person (assuming you are seeking a relationship and not just playing around). There are others as well.

But, Scripture also teaches that (1) a satisfying sex life is owed to your spouse, and (2) nothing is explicitly prohibited between a husband and wife. Basically, sex is acknowledged as a need and marriage is forsaking all others and lifelong then you better be sure your partner is getting what they need.

The problem is that people twist or ignore second part of this issue. They don't get that marrying a person is committing to their sexual need and the refusal / reluctance attitude does not hold water. Thus, people spout off with "well you waited two years while courting me before marriage, why don't you just do the same now", "sex is unimportant", "sexual satisfaction is not a literal requirement", etc.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

DTO you ask some valid questions, ones I've thought about myself. I'll give what I feel are honest answers, even if some are rather harsh.

I do want others reading to know this is how I feel about me and my situation... others are free to do what they want I wouldn't dream of judging them for choosing divorce.



DTO said:


> 1) Guilt / inferiority regarding your needs (why are your needs inferior to your wife's and your children's).


It's simple math, 1 person vs 6 (I'd still be miserable).

I think my misery would be far far worse because I know I'd be breaking their hearts (in addition to getting even less sex than I do now). I know I would regret and hate myself for every ounce of pain I caused because I put my needs before theirs. So where is the joy in living in sorrow over and over again watching the 5 others I love most in this world hurt again and again?

There's no peace or joy in that only a greater sorrow.

Let's face it, if we divorced because I put myself first... then all the heartache and misery that follows... EVERY LAST drop of that is on me and me alone. I would be the one that decided to rip apart their lives for my hope of future pleasure. 



DTO said:


> 2) Fear of the unknown (My kids and wife will suffer, I won't be this happy elsewhere?). Why not think that you can thrive regardless, that you might get the kids, and that your wife would not thrive (or in fact be happier in a situation where there was not an undercurrent of negative sexual tension?


I know because while I thrive on paper, I still live with the aftermath of my parents divorce 35+ years ago. My entire childhood was absolutely torturous as a direct result of my parent's divorce.

I should mention that my parent's divorce was so extreme it was featured on a national TV show.

I understand that my children's experience may not be as bad as mine was but why would I ever risk putting them all through that kind of personal hell?

My wife would live with the fact that she had let me down and I left her because she "didn't measure up". That would emotionally crush her (bear in mind I still love her, so that hurt would be my hurt). She would likely never marry again (we've discussed it), and she live with the regrets the rest of her life. I would have to live with that, knowing yet again it was me... I made a decision to break her heart. I did because I put myself first. Just incredibly selfish... inexcusably so.

She would likely move back to California to be with her family, and the children would face routine cross country trips taking them away from friends and family every time they flew across. Filling them with resentment and diminished ability to have a social life.

Not to mention all the custody battles that I'm sure would ensue.

Yeah really doesn't sound like a winner situation to me. Divorce is extremely ugly in reality. I think far too many people treat divorce far too lightly on this forum to be honest.

Especially when there are children involved, because then the pain is there for the next X years until the kids grow up... then you still have issues of if/when kids will visit you at all vs the other parent. Every time children are exchanged between homes it's pain for everyone. Every time different parents make different decisions about their children fighting and more pain. Every time a parent has to miss out on a big moment in their child's life yet more pain. I could go on and on here. It's an agony that just goes on and on throughout the rest of their lives.



DTO said:


> 3) Scarcity mindset. Why suppose you won't be this happy again? Why not believe that someone wanting you can be found? One thing that I've learned in my relatively short single life is that men willing to share and treasure someone else in their lives are much in demand.


I could theoretically end up happy... it is possible sure. Still at what cost to my children and wife? Would the new happiness found exceed the pain I felt every day knowing what I did to my children?

I don't think it's outside the realm of reality that one or more of my children may reject me outright for being so selfish. I'd have to live with that as well. Knowing I'd be forever cut off from the child(ren) I love.

In the end this is what I believe I'd be saying/doing for divorcing my wife: I'm saying my sexual needs are so important that they are worth the risk of destroying all our lives for the hope that maybe I might someday find some level of happiness.

There is no excuse for that type of thinking.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Brown:
Your love for your wife and your children shines through your posts, and I believe that you will find a solution to this problem. Keep letting your wife know how important this is to you.

How are the sex therapy sessions going? If she is willing to do this with you, she must understand that a good sex life is the way that you feel loved.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Brown:
> Your love for your wife and your children shines through your posts, and I believe that you will find a solution to this problem. Keep letting your wife know how important this is to you.
> 
> How are the sex therapy sessions going? If she is willing to do this with you, she must understand that a good sex life is the way that you feel loved.


Thanks Loves. ST is going well overall (it takes time). I'm going to have my next appointment tomorrow (IC), and I'll catch people up on the new developments then.

One of the big things our ST has been working with my wife on is the issue of being sexy, feeling sexy and knowing what she finds sexy.

Unfortunately out of that we are finding that she really finds nothing sexy. It's not just me... she doesn't find any men or women sexy. She doesn't find movies with racy scenes sexy, nor any form of advertising. Nothing a man wears, or doesn't wear, is sexy.

Attractive yes (kind of like how one appreciates art), sexy no. That is one of the reasons that I got led onto the idea that she might be asexual. This is one of the attributes (and she matches an awful lot of the other attributes) mentioned on the FAQ up on the website I liked at the start of this thread.

She struggles with finding herself sexy as well. She doesn't have body image issues... just doesn't consider herself or anything she wears really make her feel sexy or think of herself as being sexy (she does feel attractive). Even though to me she is very sexy.... so go figure.

This past few weeks has been harder to gain ground though. Her mother was in town (just left today). She's a wonderfully nice lady, but she is anything but a sexy woman (never has been). Nor her mother before her. Her mother wouldn't know sexy if it bit her bum off.

So my wife admitted it's going to be hard to really focus on feeling/being sexy while she was in town.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
What helps me is that my W always has made this a priority. If your wife really is making a consistent good faith effort, that represents genuine love and commitment and hopefully will help you remain sane. I imagine this is difficult for her also especially as it is a shock to your system when someone says "this must change" after 12 years.





Browncoat said:


> MEM to be honest, I feel that sexually we are about as far apart as you can get.
> 
> very HD vs very LD
> long duration before climax vs short duration
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Brown,
> What helps me is that my W always has made this a priority. If your wife really is making a consistent good faith effort, that represents genuine love and commitment and hopefully will help you remain sane. I imagine this is difficult for her also especially as it is a shock to your system when someone says "this must change" after 12 years.
> 
> 
> ...


It's difficult for her in that she can tell I'm hurting from it. Unfortunately for me if we dropped down to having sex a handful of times a year and never heard from me again on this topic... she'd be 100% content.

Still she is trying to work on things and for that I'm grateful.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> So my wife admitted it's going to be hard to really focus on feeling/being sexy while she was in town.


This is an excuse.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> This is an excuse.


It is, but it's over now. She only comes out from California once every year or two.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I heard all the excuses from my supposed LD husband. They get old. Although some were so rediculous that I had to fight to keep from laughing outloud.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I heard all the excuses from my supposed LD husband. They get old. Although some were so rediculous that I had to fight to keep from laughing outloud.


Perhaps I'm too much of a nice guy when it comes to excuses... I'll have to think about that and see if I see a pattern there.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Perhaps I'm too much of a nice guy when it comes to excuses... I'll have to think about that and see if I see a pattern there.


I'm waaaaayyy too nice and my therapist agrees. I started noticing and calling my husband on his excuses about this time last year. At first I bought his excuses but then I began to see his pattern of avoidance.

I don't call him on all of them - I'm more methodical now. The ED one ended up being BS but he really believed it so I let it slide. His confidence was at play so that one needed a more gentle approach. KWIM?

Awareness is key. My goal with my husband was to gently get him to quit avoiding, quit making excuses and work WITH me on our problems.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I'll try and make a point to talk to the ST tomorrow about this as well. See what she thinks. Or at least plant the idea of working towards a diagnosis.

At this point I just need to know. I'm just so tired...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
The goal here is to achieve the "best possible" outcome. That is the goal. As to what that is - lets shift your focus a bit. 

Your W cannot change her CORE personality. She can't. And that is ok - because you love much of who she is and the parts you LOVE won't change either. 

Just as you cannot "remake yourself" into a non-sexual person - she cannot "remake herself" into a sexual person. So stay away from inflammatory labels like asexual and/or (for you) hyper-sexual. And instead focus on WHAT you want her to DO, and not HOW you want her to FEEL. She can't directly control that sexual feeling stuff. Anymore than you can. And you are going to cause her distress to no good end by trying to get her to FEEL something she can't/doesn't. 

What you can do, is agree to rules of engagement. Just as you won't be dismissive of her lack of sexuality she will not act in a manner that shows a lack of concern for your strong sexuality. 

And here my friend is where the science ends and the art begins. When her efforts are sincere and consistent, you are going to have to convey acceptance and appreciation, EVEN when you strongly desire to tell her that you are frustrated she isn't more turned on. Because - when she is walking the walk, you are grinding the emotional gears if you tell her that "doing" isn't enough. Because at that point you are - without meaning to - rejecting a core aspect of who she is. And that will be demoralizing to her. 

You need to reach some mutual compromise on frequency and on how she handles nights where she really doesn't want to. She needs to grasp that a direct "rejection" - in the form of "not tonight" is hurtful. And now that she knows how hurtful it is - it is more than hurtful, it is at minimum selfish and possibly mean. The accommodation on frequency is key. A simple understanding is:
- We are agreeing to have sex X times a month
- If she KNOWS she wants a particular night off, she can and should give you a light cue. My W might say "is there any chance we could maybe spoon/watch tv tonight"? That means "we aren't having sex tonight". That is what it means. It doesn't hurt me. It doesn't make me angry or feel unloved. It is a request for a non-sex night. It prevents a pointless initiate/defer cycle. 
- If she doesn't really know until you ask - and that is ok too - she can ask "Is it ok if we connect tomorrow"? BUT this is where love, commitment and respect show themselves to be true and sincere - or not. Tomorrow is now a commitment. And there is no game playing - hoping that some "blocking event" will arise as an excuse. SHE manages her priorities tomorrow so you DO connect. 
- And she should agree to initiate some amount. And this is important - initiating does not mean she has to physically start the activities. For my W - if it is after dinner and she gives me a smile with a tilt to her head it means "do you want to play". And for her that is initiating. Fine by me. A wife who won't do that - needs to work on herself. Especially when the odds of rejection equate to those of winning the powerball. 

As for the sexual experience itself. Whatever you can do to try to shorten the marathon man intercourse routine will help both of you. And that might include seeing if you can find a technique that doesn't get her to the rapture so quickly so often. I read your post about how she "relaxes" after getting there a few times and the lack of tightness causes you to last even longer. 

For me - a long - sexualized massage (first giving and then receiving) gets me very wound up. Like you I can last a bit. Actually no freakin way close to you - like for me 15 minutes is a record and 10 minutes is a decent duration. But since pain is an issue - 10 minutes is WAY TOO long for us. Well - it will be if we ever have intercourse again....

If your W is good about hand/oral to make it so you don't hurt her - be grateful. That is love and commitment. 

End of long rant. 

Brown, You are a good guy in a very difficult spot, acting with grace and integrity. Hemingway would have loved you. 






Browncoat said:


> I'll try and make a point to talk to the ST tomorrow about this as well. See what she thinks. Or at least plant the idea of working towards a diagnosis.
> 
> At this point I just need to know. I'm just so tired...


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

This is part of what I'm most concerned about, that she may be giving her all and it's not enough for me.

You mentioned hand/oral, she's never ever brought me to climax this way. She's read through the threads here on oral sex, and she's incorporated many of those techniques it's just at the end the whole thing comes across as mechanical not sexy. I often times loose an erection when she tries to do either of those things. I talk to her about what I'd like to see changed, but again everything is just so mechanical with her. I don't know how to address that, and personally I fear that it IS because she's just purely asexual.

The vast majority of the time we do have intercourse I have to finish myself off, and that often times takes an additional 5-15 minutes. It just feels like vaginally enhanced masturbation.

I know I'm talking out of frustration here, but I'm afraid there are some other changes going on within me now. I'm fearful that part of me is just shutting down with her. This has never happened.

For the first time ever, last night I actually lost an erection during sex. I know people say that it happens, but I'm very concerned... because it's coupled with me just loosing interest in her (another first).

Over the past few weeks it's actually taking me a while to achieve an erection during foreplay (also a first).

Additionally over the past few weeks I've just lost interest in masturbating alone... just sick of it, because it represents more failure in our sex life.

I fear I'm loosing interest in her sexually and not sure how to get it back. As of just a few weeks ago I couldn't touch her enough. Now I'm getting to the point where I just don't even feel like hugging, even when she initiates a hug. I've never been that way across all 15 years of our marriage... not once.

I know all of this is unrelated to determining if she is asexual or not... or if I should even try and get a diagnosis. Frankly though I fear that I'm just somehow withdrawing from her. This really concerns me. Part of me just feels some urgency to get answers.

Last night my wife and I were talking, and we realized that when we said that she had a drive 4-6x/year... it wasn't really a drive. It was more like she was open to sex that often... that she was more easily aroused. I fear that she actually has zero sex drive. What's more, is that the 4-6x was related to her 2-3 ovulations, which are soon to be a thing of the past. Those times were better and more exciting for us both, but they are just about gone now.

I want to continue to be patient, and frankly I have no choice... but it's becoming increasingly difficult as of late. 

I still have a sex drive... I just feel my motivation to do anything about it weakening... because it just all feels like yet another admission that my sex life is a huge disappointment. I'll go over all this with my ST today when we meet.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Man Browncoat I feel your pain. I have been fighting these types of feelings for about the last year now. I go through periods where I don't even care anymore which I have NEVER had. They were short at first but they are getting longer and longer in between.

At least in your case your wife seems more willing to work WITH you. I don't think I will get mine to MC/ST until I walk out the door.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

*Dean* said:


> Browncoat
> 
> Maybe you need to start spending some time on yourself. Still be
> a family man but have an hour or two for yourself. Being active,
> ...


I actually have been a lot more active than ever before the past several months.

I work out in the gym for about an hour on average each morning (except Sunday). I take walks at night (those take another 20-45 minutes depending on how far I go and how fast), sometimes alone sometimes with kids (and always with the dog).

Afraid to say that right now the only things I find joy in these days is exercise and my kids... not that I've lost love for me wife. I just don't light up like I used to when she walks into the room. It used to be electric, now it's just so cold and flat in my heart towards her.

It feels like in the past week or two a switch just got flipped and I don't know how to turn it back on.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Man Browncoat I feel your pain. I have been fighting these types of feelings for about the last year now. I go through periods where I don't even care anymore which I have NEVER had. They were short at first but they are getting longer and longer in between.
> 
> At least in your case your wife seems more willing to work WITH you. I don't think I will get mine to MC/ST until I walk out the door.


Well I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone in how I've started to feel.

Just out of curiosity do you have a friend or family member you can talk things over with? Even if just by phone.

I was also curious why you're resistant to see a therapist?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Browncoat said:


> Well I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone in how I've started to feel.
> 
> Just out of curiosity do you have a friend or family member you can talk things over with? Even if just by phone.
> 
> I was also curious why you're resistant to see a therapist?


No, unfortunately not really. 

I am not opposed to therapy at all, she is.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

*Dean* said:


> Does your wife know how you really feel?
> If you put sex aside for a second, does she know that she
> needs to start really fighting hard for you and the marriage?
> Fighting where she would want to dress better for you and
> pay more attention to you. Spend more quality time with you.


Thanks Dean. That's probably just what I needed to hear. We just had lunch together and I asked that she work on being more sexy around the house. Dressing better and even wearing makeup a bit (she normally never wears any). So we'll see what comes of that. Thanks again.

Yes she does know about it... she can see it plain as day the difference in my attitude. It's not that I'm mean, angry or even frustrated... I'm just distant.

Normally when I come to bed (if she's awake) I'm caressing her giving her a hug/kiss or two. It's something she really enjoys as well, and she knows it's not always a prelude to sex... it's just how I am with her. Last night for example I just laid down and curl up with my back to her (normally I sleep on my stomach). I did that w/o even thinking about it... just did it. She came over to my side of the bed and caressed me and we ended up talking for an hour or so.

The past couple of weeks I've hardly seen her much at all now that I think about it. She's been busy visiting with her mother who was in town for three weeks (I tend to avoid her mother because she is a sweet lady... but she REALLY gets on my nerves as well). On top of that she was busy with our youngest's dance performance (both ballet and tap since the same dance school put on their annual show this past weekend). My wife was very busy helping put on that show, with her going out every night for the past week.

Now that I think about it, it could be that her distance just caused me to shutdown and disconnect from her. Sad in a way that it would change that radically from just those past few weeks of altered in house dynamics.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> No, unfortunately not really.
> 
> I am not opposed to therapy at all, she is.


Perhaps you should see one just by yourself? Many here swear by IC... and I know I'm kind of grateful that today I'll just be meeting with our ST alone.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Been there done that but I may go back. Time/money will tell.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> It feels like in the past week or two a switch just got flipped and I don't know how to turn it back on.


I know this feeling well and it applies to many things not just this. It's called waking up and it's painful. Your body is screaming at you to consider it's wants and needs. I fear if you don't act on it bad things will happen. Either a health issue or something else. You've been unhappy for so long and denying that isn't working so well now is it?

My heart goes out to you because it truly sucks to be in this place. And even if you choose to change (I have) that's painful too. The change at least comes with peace. Staying stuck does not.

Oh and btw you can't "turn it back on". Trust me I tried and failed miserably.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I know this feeling well and it applies to many things not just this. It's called waking up and it's painful. Your body is screaming at you to consider it's wants and needs. I fear if you don't act on it bad things will happen. Either a health issue or something else. You've been unhappy for so long and denying that isn't working so well now is it?
> 
> My heart goes out to you because it truly sucks to be in this place. And even if you choose to change (I have) that's painful too. The change at least comes with peace. Staying stuck does not.
> 
> Oh and btw you can't "turn it back on". Trust me I tried and failed miserably.


Sad and difficult to hear, but thanks for sharing. I mean that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Sad and difficult to hear, but thanks for sharing. I mean that.


Wasn't trying to be a downer I just know what it's like to deny your true self. I'm starting to find mine and I'm quite shocked to find out who I really am under all this 'niceness'. LOL

Your true self wants to get his freak on with someone who wants you so bad they can barely wait to rip your clothes off and its not going to happen where you are. I'm truly sad for you thinking you may never get to experience that for yourself. 

You deserve that. You truly do.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I admire your compassion and composure.

But ... having been in a sexless, and emotionally deteriorating and unfulfilling marriage, and coming out on the other side; I have a very different perspective.

Have you considered that part of your difficulty in reaching climax is a preoccupation with the knowledge that she doesn't desire to be doing what she's doing?

I remember that vividly.

When my partner is dialed in, things just work for me. When they are not ... I have a very difficult time reaching orgasm, if at all.

And again, it's demoralizing. It's lose/lose. I start thinking about if she is providing sex out of obligation, and it's difficult to get excited about sympathy sex. The longer she tries, the more frustrated she gets and the further away from the whole point of the exercise we both get. 

Sex should never be a 'bad' thing. But it can be, in many, many ways.

Consequently, my having had sex with partners after my marriage has been a reminder of how utterly dysfunctional our intimate relationship had become. Sex isn't everything ... but to me, you don't have an 'intimate' relationship if it is a topic or activity to be avoided.

Read through most of your posts, but I'm not sure if someone asked this question and I missed your response.

What changes if it is determined through whatever means ... that she is asexual?

Have you gone there? Either in your own mind, or with her?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Deejo's post reminds me that my wife almost requires sex to be in the dark. In the rare case when it's light out she has the weird eye's shut tightly almost pained look on her face. She makes the right noises, but her expression just says "finish please".


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## Hopegetsmethrough (Jan 3, 2012)

Perhaps I can come at this from a woman's point of view here. I have very LD, most unfortunately. I am married to a man with HD. He is a loving man, a hardworking man, and I really enjoy his company. But I've never looked forward to sex. 

When we were dating (four and a half years), we made the choice not to have sex before marriage. Everything was exciting then, perhaps it only was arousal, but it certainly made me look forward to sex. Now, it has been nothing but a disappointment. Painful for years, doctors said nothing was wrong internally, but it was just painful all the time. Now, after being married almost 6 years, I can finally orgasm and its nice. But I'd still rather be doing something else. Lying in bed facing each other and talking. Sharing struggles, hopes and dreams. This isn't something we do often. He will try to spoon with me and do things that he thinks I'd like, but don't really. 

If your wife loves you enough to try, even though it's not great for her, keep her. That's a woman who will go to great lengths to stand by you. You are behaving unselfishly by continuing to try to make your marriage work, don't give up. 

Every time my husband brings up sex and how infrequently we have it (which is at least once a week, mostly two, sometimes three) it crushes my spirit. Every time he says, "Faking it isn't enough. I want you to really want it." I feel like I am never going to make him happy. It seems like having sex is the only thing that will keep him happy and fulfilled in his life. What if he got ED, or I developed a disease and intimacy wasn't on the table? Would he leave me? These are the things that plague me, and perhaps prey on your wife as well.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I greatly appreciate your input, perspective, and sincerity ... difficult sincerity. I truly admire your honesty.

I understand it, and respect it. But that is also where, now ... it ends for me.

I wouldn't accept it. Not ever again.

I don't doubt that you love your husband, but given what I have been through ... I hear the earmarks of both parties. Husband wants his spouse to feel sexual desire ... for him. Wife wonders if all that husband wants her for and bases the relationship on ... is sex. It's a toxic combination.

We see here consistently, the results of trying to tolerate the intolerable. Whether it is a spouse that rejects or begrudgingly tolerates intimacy, to a partner that lives a life in parallel with their spouse; offering no kindness, assistance, consideration, or fulfillment of the others needs.

They are no different. They both carry tremendous emotional cost and build THE marriage killer ... resentment.



Hopegetsmethrough said:


> Perhaps I can come at this from a woman's point of view here. I have very LD, most unfortunately. I am married to a man with HD. He is a loving man, a hardworking man, and I really enjoy his company. But I've never looked forward to sex.
> 
> When we were dating (four and a half years), we made the choice not to have sex before marriage. Everything was exciting then, perhaps it only was arousal, but it certainly made me look forward to sex. Now, it has been nothing but a disappointment. Painful for years, doctors said nothing was wrong internally, but it was just painful all the time. Now, after being married almost 6 years, I can finally orgasm and its nice. But I'd still rather be doing something else. Lying in bed facing each other and talking. Sharing struggles, hopes and dreams. This isn't something we do often. He will try to spoon with me and do things that he thinks I'd like, but don't really.
> 
> ...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Hopegetsmethrough said:


> What if he got ED, or I developed a disease and intimacy wasn't on the table? Would he leave me? These are the things that plague me, and perhaps prey on your wife as well.


Why do mismatched libidos seem to have such a fatal attraction? --Such a viscous cycle when both spouses doubt that they're truly loved....


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Why do mismatched libidos seem to have such a fatal attraction? --Such a viscous cycle when both spouses doubt that they're truly loved....


I don't know in general. I do know that I had no idea going into my marriage.

I also know if for whatever reason I was to marry again... I will want to know the other's libido in advance.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
I am going to boil this down to a very critical aspect of a marriage. Some amount of your wifes interaction with you NEEDS TO BE all about you. Lovingly, kindly, generously, thoughtfully, ALL ABOUT YOU. 

My W has always been able to throw that switch. Which means that in bed the experience is often "the perfect storm" of three converging fronts:
- My W has taken the time to really KNOW me physically 
- She cares about me and consistently puts real effort into using that knowledge
- She is 100 percent focused on me from start to finish. 

An LD spouse who has been allowed to comfortably ignore their HD partners needs for a long time often takes it for granted that their HD partner operates with the "all about you switch" semi-permanently on. I largely operate that way. Just how I am wired. Somehow we didn't get to that "taken for granted"place. 





Browncoat said:


> Thanks Dean. That's probably just what I needed to hear. We just had lunch together and I asked that she work on being more sexy around the house. Dressing better and even wearing makeup a bit (she normally never wears any). So we'll see what comes of that. Thanks again.
> 
> Yes she does know about it... she can see it plain as day the difference in my attitude. It's not that I'm mean, angry or even frustrated... I'm just distant.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That is totally understandable. And on here - to this audience - an honest statement. 

As upset as you are, this type comment will hurt your W and will not improve the situation. Likely the opposite. 

This comments translates into: I wouldn't want to marry a low desire partner - given a chance would not want to be married to you. Feels high on the toxicity scale. 

On the other hand: 
I have asked you to make an effort to dress a certain way for me. This is not a hard thing to do. We both know that I have made a major effort to find a middle ground where we can both be happy despite all the challenges we face in this area of our marriage. This lack of effort is disrespectful to me as a person, and devalues the love and effort I put into our marriage. 

That message is harsh - IMO deservedly so. AND it is something she can promptly address with minimal effort. 

If your W has no health issues that would preclude it - she might consider getting on a testosterone regime. I am absolutely not joking about that. It is worth trying. I believe small testosterone booster is fairly low risk. 




Browncoat said:


> I don't know in general. I do know that I had no idea going into my marriage.
> 
> I also know if for whatever reason I was to marry again... I will want to know the other's libido in advance.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Hopegetsmethrough. It is good to hear another perspective.



Hopegetsmethrough said:


> Perhaps I can come at this from a woman's point of view here. I have very LD, most unfortunately. I am married to a man with HD. He is a loving man, a hardworking man, and I really enjoy his company. But I've never looked forward to sex.


Very similar circumstances. Though in our case with some Sex Therapy my wife is more accepting of sex than it sounds like you are. If you haven't already tried, I'd highly recommend seeing a sex therapist.

One tip in particular that helps my wife is to mentally prepare herself for sex about 20-30 minutes in advance. In her case she finds it helps for her to think of me, how much she loves me and how much I lover her. She also thinks about how much she knows I want to show my love to her physically and she relaxes herself and thinks of anything to help her mood improve. Perhaps this will help you with your husband?




Hopegetsmethrough said:


> When we were dating (four and a half years), we made the choice not to have sex before marriage. Everything was exciting then, perhaps it only was arousal, but it certainly made me look forward to sex. Now, it has been nothing but a disappointment. Painful for years, doctors said nothing was wrong internally, but it was just painful all the time. Now, after being married almost 6 years, I can finally orgasm and its nice. But I'd still rather be doing something else. Lying in bed facing each other and talking. Sharing struggles, hopes and dreams. This isn't something we do often. He will try to spoon with me and do things that he thinks I'd like, but don't really.


This sounds very similar to our case. I had my wife go to three gynecologists until one was able to identify a source of the pain. She went to physical therapy, and after just 2 sessions it appears to be gone. We will return again for more PT if it should flare up again. So I'd strongly encourage you to get a 2nd and 3rd opinion.

In my wife's case she was a bit reluctant to go and shy around the doctors, but she emboldened herself for me. If you too are shy, either bring your husband or try to be brave for him. Keep pressing for them to find the issue(s).

As for making my wife happy and comfortable in bed, we have worked through those issues. Mostly it was about us being brutally honest with each other about what we each want. I'd recommend doing the same with your husband. Be loving, but as honest as honest gets... no euphemisms... no "ya know"... just raw unvarnished truth.



Hopegetsmethrough said:


> If your wife loves you enough to try, even though it's not great for her, keep her. That's a woman who will go to great lengths to stand by you. You are behaving unselfishly by continuing to try to make your marriage work, don't give up.


There is no doubt that she will stand by my side. I am grateful for that. She is a great wife outside the bedroom... no real complaints there.

The problem for me is that I fear things are starting to change for the worse for me due to issues in the bedroom. Believe me I do not take divorce lightly... I WANT to save the marriage. I wouldn't be reading books, going to therapy and spending long hours talking with my wife if I didn't.



Hopegetsmethrough said:


> Every time my husband brings up sex and how infrequently we have it (which is at least once a week, mostly two, sometimes three) it crushes my spirit. Every time he says, "Faking it isn't enough. I want you to really want it." I feel like I am never going to make him happy. It seems like having sex is the only thing that will keep him happy and fulfilled in his life. What if he got ED, or I developed a disease and intimacy wasn't on the table? Would he leave me? These are the things that plague me, and perhaps prey on your wife as well.


I will say from my experience that no "faking it" is not enough. It's not about the physical mechanics of sex that's so important. It's all about the emotional, intimacy, pleasure, etc... Pleasure though is hard to obtain if your partner isn't into it. That unfortunately is the harsh reality of it.

Those tough questions you have unfortunately can only be answered by your husband.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> That is totally understandable. And on here - to this audience - an honest statement.
> 
> As upset as you are, this type comment will hurt your W and will not improve the situation. Likely the opposite.


She knows. No it doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt either. She feels bad as she puts it: "that I trapped you in a marriage you didn't want". I reassure her though that I love her and that I am fighting to make everything work.

In some ways she is working hard as well, and for that I'm grateful! 

In other areas I find her dragging her feet. For example she still doesn't dress in anything more than a t-shirt and jeans despite my repeatedly asking her to dip a bit further into her wardrobe (she has seasonally and functionally appropriate alternate attire... she just doesn't choose to wear it). She doesn't wear any makeup except perhaps 1-2x a year, and despite my asking that she try and use it more often just around the house, she hasn't to date (it's been weeks of asking now).

In some areas I'm concerned she may never "get it", though I am still working with her on it. For example I fear she may never know how to act/feel sexy. What desire and passion for me feels like at all. For her it's mechanical. She studies what she should be doing and she tries, but it's extremely obvious that it's just mechanics to her w/o feeling.



MEM11363 said:


> This comments translates into: I wouldn't want to marry a low desire partner - given a chance would not want to be married to you. Feels high on the toxicity scale.


You are right that it could be toxic, but we are completely honest with one another. She knows. She also knows that I love her and the kids deeply, and that I'm doing everything I can to make our marriage better. I am fighting for my marriage with all that I have, because of my love for her and the kids first and foremost.



MEM11363 said:


> If your W has no health issues that would preclude it - she might consider getting on a testosterone regime. I am absolutely not joking about that. It is worth trying. I believe small testosterone booster is fairly low risk.


We have tried it, and it did absolutely nothing for her drive at all.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

*Dean* said:


> This may sound harsh but have you got mad about the looking better part at home.
> 
> So upset that your wife has tears.
> Then calmly ask her how she would dress being a single parent. Would she continue not wearing make up and only wear a T shirt for the rest of her life.
> ...


I know what you are getting at exactly Dean.

I've not gotten angry with her over this issue. Although in the past it was my getting angry that led to us initially getting any help on our sexual problems... after years of asking her. It was my getting angry that finally got her to serious at the gynecologist's office after she had gone 2 other times and been too timid to really get to the bottom of things.

I really try not to use it too often... but yes if it continues for much longer I may have to turn up the volume of my voice.

Just so others understand though, there is no violence in our relationship. I just wanted to make that perfectly clear.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Brown,
> My W has always been able to throw that switch. Which means that in bed the experience is often "the perfect storm" of three converging fronts:
> - My W has taken the time to really KNOW me physically
> - She cares about me and consistently puts real effort into using that knowledge
> - She is 100 percent focused on me from start to finish.


She does know me physically sort of well, we are working on that just that despite her trying different things she reads and listening to my feedback... things remain sadly disappointing.

I do give her an A for effort though, she is trying.

Unfortunately the last part, being 100% focused. That she doesn't do well. I really don't know how to help since that is really all in her own head. She gets lost in her own thoughts very quickly and easily. She is trying to stay focused, but she finds that very hard to do.

In my estimation it's because quite frankly she doesn't care about sex. If she could have her way we wouldn't do it at all... well maybe a couple of times a year when she feels like it. Though once menopause is complete, I suspect that won't be happening anymore (since the only times before that she was more amenable was during ovulation).

So it's just hard for her to focus on what she doesn't enjoy really. She gets orgasms and pleasure, but somehow in her heart it's just not worth the effort. Believe me I would love for this to change, and I try to work with her on this. At times though it feels about as unlikely as her finding a joy of calculus.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She makes the right noises, but her expression just says "finish please".


My wife has improved, but yes I can still tell from her face sometimes and always from her body language that she's thinking the same thing: "finish please".


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I admire your compassion and composure.
> 
> But ... having been in a sexless, and emotionally deteriorating and unfulfilling marriage, and coming out on the other side; I have a very different perspective.


Thanks Deejo, for all of that. I appreciate your perspective, as painful as it is to consider... I really do appreciate it.

I didn't respond at first, because I wanted some more time to consider the questions you asked. You gave me a lot to really ponder, and I'm not sure that I'm really done thinking about it either... but I wanted to give you an answer.



Deejo said:


> Have you considered that part of your difficulty in reaching climax is a preoccupation with the knowledge that she doesn't desire to be doing what she's doing?


Yes, I have and I really do think that it plays a huge role in things. Having sex with someone who clearly doesn't want to be there (even though she puts on a kind face and tries to be very sweet about things), isn't sexy. It detracts. Though I'm torn on one hand I don't want her to get into the habit of walking out the moment she's got her orgasm, nor do I want to necessarily kick her out of the room either so that I can finish myself off. It's just a difficult situation. 

Still based on my only other sexual experience (college GF). I'm not remotely interested in bragging, because I know I'm no super stud... but I remember it taking a long time then as well (easily 20-30 minutes). The difference there was that my GF enjoyed it, and it rarely got painful. Still I was young and she was young.




Deejo said:


> I remember that vividly.
> 
> When my partner is dialed in, things just work for me. When they are not ... I have a very difficult time reaching orgasm, if at all.


Yes there are lots of times when I just give up. That it's not worth continuing to even try and climax. It's altogether far too common an occurrence. 



Deejo said:


> And again, it's demoralizing. It's lose/lose. I start thinking about if she is providing sex out of obligation, and it's difficult to get excited about sympathy sex. The longer she tries, the more frustrated she gets and the further away from the whole point of the exercise we both get.


Yep. 



Deejo said:


> Sex should never be a 'bad' thing. But it can be, in many, many ways.


Yep. 



Deejo said:


> Consequently, my having had sex with partners after my marriage has been a reminder of how utterly dysfunctional our intimate relationship had become. Sex isn't everything ... but to me, you don't have an 'intimate' relationship if it is a topic or activity to be avoided.


No sex isn't everything, but as I've found when you don't get satisfying sex long enough it really occupies your thoughts. I try to not show her how much because I don't want to overwhelm her, but the thoughts remain.

Sex is avoided less often now, but it's rarely really satisfying for me... very very rarely. Perhaps 1x/month do things really go well. Yet (well up until quite recently) the drive is there.

Now I'm concerned I may have lost my drive... I know I have for the time being and it's really worrying me. I used to get into the mood on my own all the time. I've not gotten into the mood in a week or more on my own. I could go on, but let me just suffice to say there are even more things just this past week that are concerning me about my own suddenly changing about me sexually, and I mean really sudden. I feel there were no warning signs either. If it continues much longer I'm going to see a doctor about it.




Deejo said:


> Read through most of your posts, but I'm not sure if someone asked this question and I missed your response.
> 
> What changes if it is determined through whatever means ... that she is asexual?
> 
> Have you gone there? Either in your own mind, or with her?


I have partly gone there in my mind. This is why I hesitated to answer your post right away. This is the part of your email that I'll continue to think about a lot in the days to come.

For now I'll say this, at least I will KNOW what the issue is. In some way it will give peace of mind, while it raises a ton of greater concerns. 

I don't know what I'll do at that point, I really don't... and that's what concerns me most about trying to piece together an answer for myself. Still I need to answer the question for my own sake.


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## unexited (May 14, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Brown,
> You have been incredibly patient. It is time to have a low key conversation with your W about what a diagnosis of "asexuality" would mean.
> 
> For me it would mean that the love of my life does not want to have sex with me. If she didn't feel obligated, she wouldn't.
> ...



WOW! I would love to know, has anyone actually said this to their LD/asexual partner. What would be their reaction. 

I would love to hear about someone who has.


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