# Need strategies to de-fuse overreactors



## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

It happens to everyone at some point. He does something stupid, totally by accident, totally without malice or bad intent... just a dumb mistake. It wasn't even something huge (though to her the result is huge of course). She gets mad. MAD mad.

He apologizes, he feels AWFUL. He can only really say "I'm sorry" so many times, because it was just an innocent, albeit stupid mistake. But in her mind, she might as well have been publicly beaten, and had the video posted online.

OK so I'm not saying that she isn't wrong to be upset -- I recognize that it was a big deal to her. But really it was an accident, and I feel that after a certain point, continuing to be mad at me is just hurting both of us and gaining nothing.

Women: when your men make a "dumb man-mistake", and you are livid at the result, what gets you to stop stonewalling and just let it go? Do you need token gestures like flowers and candy and presents? Do you need satisfaction (he has to do a bunch of chores) or do I basically just have to sit and take it until she decides she's worked through it?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> when your men make a "dumb man-mistake", and you are livid at the result, what gets you to stop stonewalling and just let it go? Do you need token gestures like flowers and candy and presents? Do you need satisfaction (he has to do a bunch of chores) or do I basically just have to sit and take it until she decides she's worked through it?


Depends on what the 'dumb man mistake' was. If it was a big mistake, like a breach of trust, then I take a long, long time to get over it. But I have major trust issues. 

If he buys me flowers, etc and expects that should get me over 'it', then i get pissed. I cant be bought. the suggestion is insulting.

If he ever tells me i _should_ get over something then i get pissed. I _should_ get over 'it' when im good and ready. Telling someone they should get over something is an attempt to emotionally control another. 

i tell my H that every time i start stonewalling him, as you call it, just apologize. Listen and apologize. its pretty simple.

If you cant do the time then dont commit the crime...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

One thing I do now, which I could not do when I was young and hot headed, is to listen, take the blame, and say sorry with out arguing or defending myself. Of course it has to be authentic. I have found it works, but you may have to take more than one "beating", before she feels validated.


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

oooh, similar incident happened to me (I am a female). 
My DH did not support me at a family function (his family) when I wanted to leave a few hours early (we drove seperately and it was an 8 day vacation up north). He wanted me to stay, I wanted to leave. He over reacted and got really upset with me. It got out of hand.
Anyhow, I brought it up a few nights later (usually he lets these things slide under the rug and just "go away" while I bury them and bring them up later) and told him I felt no support from him and he should have had no problem with me wanting to go home the night before. All he says is "sorry". That's it. No feeling, no emotion. And usually after bickering with me for a good 15 minutes first. When he sees he won't "win", he says "sorry" and feels that's good enough.
What did I want? Him to listen. Him to put himself in my shoes. 

therefore, if I were you, I would say to your wife (only after listening to her and really understanding, not waiting to state my defense) "honey, you are right. I did a dumb thing. I understand you are mad at me. I would be too, if I were you. All I can say is that I made a mistake, I upset you and that was not my intention. I'll give you some time and if you want to talk about it again at a later date, I'll listen. I'm very sorry."

I know, I know, sounds corny. But that is really all I want. Maybe a day or two later (depending how long it takes me to calm down or destress) if he came over and gave me a hug or said something funny/silly like "am I still in the doghouse or can I take you out to dinner tonight?" I would probably smile and that would be the end of that. Unfortuneately, that's not how things happen in my world. He can go weeks without talking to me. Then he takes my issue and makes it his own. Becoming a victim to my "abuse".

I think women like to vent. Yet, like men, they need time to get over things. Let them vent at first. Give them time. They will miss you after a day or 2. Then do something cute or give her a puppy dog face and ask for forgiveness. Something silly. Break the tension. This won't work right away, you have to let some time go by.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

---Depends on what the 'dumb man mistake' was.

I explicitly said it was NOT something big. It did not involve trust, property damage, high cost, or anything really "serious" (ie: that most rational people would consider a big deal). Think on the level of not putting a new roll of TP on, and she was momentarily inconvenienced. Something that really, if it happened to anyone else, she'd be saying "its not a big deal".

---"If he ever tells me i should get over something then i get pissed"

This is what frustrated me the most. Because YOU are upset over it, its the biggest thing in the world. You don't care that it was an accident, and that I meant no harm, all you know are your own feelings.

Now, I was given the advice to see it from another perspective...

OK so how about this... when I'm watching football, and you ask me to do anything.... ANYTHING, then I expect to be able to stonewall you, and have you begging for my forgiveness. After all, 

1) I have asked repeatedly for you to leave me be while I watch football -- since you failed to do that, you must not be listening to me. It is unacceptable to say you "forgot" because I've told you at least 4 times, therefore I am extrapolating that you must not care at all about my feelings, and you must not respect me.

2) I have done a, b, c, d... for you already. Sometimes, it is better for both of us, if you just do the thing yourself rather than expect me to be your butler. The fact that you ask me for help constantly can be extrapolated into you being lazy, selfish, and once again, disrespectful.

3) Since football is very important to me, you should understand that I want to enjoy it as much as possible. When you interrupt me, it shows me that you do not value my interests at all, and therefore must not love me.

4) The thing that you are asking me to do is less significant than watching football is. In my opinion, since a delay will not cause a loss of human life, destruction of property, or any other threatening of our basic needs, it can wait.

OK if you are reading what I wrote, and saying "you're crazy! its not that bad" well think again. That feeling you just had about me being ridiculous and unreasonable is EXACTLY how I felt when I was being read the riot act for what I did.

I am not writing that to be malicious or attack anyone. I want you to know just what it felt like to be "the wrongdoer".

However, I think I was able to answer my own question. When somebody feels as passionate about something as in my original post, there is NO POINT WHATSOEVER in trying to talk it out. The person who committed the crime (me in this case) has three very simple choices.

1) Put up with the abuse, let it ruin your day/week, let yourself be victimized, and wait until the "victim" decides to talk.

2) Stonewall back. Do not let it affect you, enjoy the time to yourself, and wait for the person to talk.

3) If the wrongdoer wants peace before the "victim" decides to forgive, it will be EXPENSIVE. Punishments, favors, presents... whatever it takes.

The issue is resolved now (sadly, through a combination of 1, and 3). My goal in life is to master solution 2.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I have made it clear to my wife that I won't put up with that kind of thing, ever again.

On the other hand neither will she... so it's a win win


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

---"I have made it clear to my wife that I won't put up with that kind of thing, ever again."

This is why I say that number 2 is the only option that will work (at least the way I want it to). I suppose that makes me cold and heartless, but better that than be a victim.

Of course if I had told her when she started getting upset "stop it now" and if she persisted, I ignored her completely, then she'd be on here telling the world about how I don't listen or care about her feelings.


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

let me understand... you were doing something that SHE KNOWS you want to do undisturbed, yet she interupted you anyway?
Yeah, that's not cool. 
Maybe come up with a compromise. Tell her that either she has to leave the house during your football games, or you go to a bar or elsewhere. OR, you get a room with a lock on it and a big tv and surround sound!
Or do what I might do, depending on the day of the week: wait for her to get all tied up in a tv movie and then interupt her with something similar. 
I know, again, not nice.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> ---"I have made it clear to my wife that I won't put up with that kind of thing, ever again."
> 
> This is why I say that number 2 is the only option that will work (at least the way I want it to). I suppose that makes me cold and heartless, but better that than be a victim.


No, you have misunderstood me. I don't stonewall, I just don't signal my acceptance. And recently, I have learnt the master stroke of making a joke out of it. That is to say I rib her about it until she laughs. It took me a long time to get the lightness of touch going so that i could pull that off.

Women know they are moody, so what we as men have to do is bounce them out of it, with humour and slapstick and whatever.


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## jupiter2007 (Aug 28, 2008)

I can say that I am a classic over-reactor and I realize that.

However, this tends to come into play a lot with my DH when he says something and it hurts my feelings and as soon as I react, he just jumps right to "I was just joking".

To me, it doesn't feel like a joking whether or not his intentions were to be playful. The thing that he doesn't realize is that feelings can get hurt despite his intentions. 

I think if he just took a moment to think about what he had said and at least TRY to understand where I could've been hurt by it and just said that he understands why my feelings were hurt and although he just meant it as a joke, he is truly sorry for saying what he said. Maybe throw in, you know that I really don't think that and that I love you, etc...

The biggest mistake is that he just says "I was joking" and continues on with that defense until he says that I am too sensitive.

I do realize that I am sensitive, but he knows that too, so sometimes to think before he opens his mouth would help a lot!

Words can hurt no matter what purpose he has for saying them. And he can't make it not hurt by just saying that it was a joke or a lame "sorry".

Understanding, or even asking why, the over-reactor reacted that way helps a lot. Getting defensive only makes it worse.

I'm actually not even sure that I'm helping at all here, just sharing where I over-react I guess.

As for football, I am a constant football-widow!! DH is beyond a football fanatic. And yes, I feel sometimes that he puts football before me sometimes and I feel bitterness towards it at times. And I react accordingly at times. But I reserve this for when I can't listen to anymore sportscenter or what have you. I do not, however, interrupt a game, it's really just the constant news that bugs me. 

We do make deals sometimes though. For example, a 15 minute backrub in exchange for an hour of football programming (other than a game) without hearing me complain or ask to change the channel. If it IS game day and I really don't feel like watching or hearing the game and am football-ed out, I usually ask for a bottle of wine so I can enjoy it and take a nice long bubble bath. 

It's not that I don't respect his interest or understand it, I just don't like it when it becomes me vs. the patriots and I'm constantly fighting for his attention all season (again, I don't mind during the games!) and losing more often than not.


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> No, you have misunderstood me. I don't stonewall, I just don't signal my acceptance. And recently, I have learnt the master stroke of making a joke out of it. That is to say I rib her about it until she laughs. It took me a long time to get the lightness of touch going so that i could pull that off.
> 
> Women know they are moody, so what we as men have to do is bounce them out of it, with humour and slapstick and whatever.


wow, you should give lessons. It's so easy, I think. I agree with you. If every guy and gal did this, I think people would have more fun, be less sensitive and find more humor in things. Sometimes... some people don't want to be ribbed though. There are some days that people just want to be cranky I think. But this is excellent advice. I think it's gotta number 1 or 2 on the list of relationship do's and dont's.


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## stylist4154 (Aug 26, 2008)

I think that men have the capacity to listen to, remember and use the information they are given, but in their mind it just isn't as trivial to them as it is to us. We can't fault them for that, but they also need to not fault us for it at the same time. It is just like their football games, I think some women could never understand why men get so excited and scream at the tv when they know, well we know, that the players and coaching staff really don't hear them. To us it is trivial, but to them it's a utopia. Next week is the beginning of a looong season... Sunday is the only day my husband and I have off together. It's quite hard to spend time with someone when they have 3 football sheets spread out on the coffee table, their fantasy football tracker page pulled up on the computer and the other fantasy football team "ever so delicately" programmed into the tv.. Now, this is serious stuff here. There are what like 15 games on Sunday? ALL of which he HAS to watch some of.. In all of this, my husband knew that if he didn't somehow get me involved, it was going to be a long long day. I was born a Browns fan, he was born a Steelers fan... it gets pretty interesting. I never really cared until he got me my first football sheet. There was a bit of excitement knowing that I had a list of teams to root for, EVEN THOUGH I didn't know the quarterback from the center. BUT... he INCLUDED me. It wasn't "this is my time, run off and do your thing". By him doing something as simple as including me in the games in a small way, it didn't feel so much like it was HIS thing anymore.. His excitement became contagious instead of annoying. He takes the time to explain plays, penalties, strategies and I think he really enjoys the fact that he is teaching me something. This is of course not an overnight phenomenon, we've been together for 6 years and has been a slow process, but my excitement nearly doubles every year now. 

Likewise, he has 'SOMEWHAT' become more sensitive to things that are important to me. Not all the time, but sometimes and that's a good start.

Now every Sunday, I get my jersey on, wrap my pigtails in brown and orange ribbons and SOMETIMES, I yell at the tv too..


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

---If you cant do the time then dont commit the crime...

I think this is part of the problem -- it continues to paint me as the bad guy when what I did was an ACCIDENT. This line of thinking on my gf's part prompts me to get madder because I did not do the thing on purpose. It makes me more motivated to attack back as saying she is overreacting, or to disconnect because she is not being receptive to what I am saying.

I suppose its inevitable that after a long time, the whole "sorry isn't good enough" becomes a part of daily life. After so many years, the result of the mistake is still the result regardless of the intent. Even if it was an accident, she was still inconvenienced, and there isn't any point in debating it because she still feels wronged.

MarkTwain's ideas are interesting, and I think that most of them seem so easy because they are intertwined, and because (most importantly of all) he started firm from the beginning. Its a lot easier to continue to take a hard line when you took that line from the beginning. I am in the irritating position of having to reclaim ground. I thought I was being accommodating and sensitive to her needs by compromising, but all it got me was dug deeper into situations where I have to fight harder to stay even.

If I had just, from the beginning, said "this nonsense won't fly" and left it at that, she'd have learned that stonewalling is pointless. As it is, I have to work extra hard now to get where I should have been at the beginning.

As far as "going right to the defense", I think that also relates to what happens when we are together so long. The progression goes something like this.

1) Thing causes her anguish, was it my fault?
1a: yes, apologize like crazy, take the punishment.
1b: no, go to step 2

2) Attempt to explain/defend accident. Does she accept?
2a: yes.... phew thank my lucky stars, crisis averted.
2b: no... oh crud, go to step 3

3) "Sorry doesn't cut it" She is mad. Now I can...
3a: stonewall, wait, and hope. This could take hours, or days.
3b: continue trying to explain, apologize, defend... hope that she accepts it. Get more and more frustrated because I feel like I am wrongfully persecuted, but that doesn't matter.
3c: go on the offensive, tell her to knock it off and stop being a child.

I'm hearing advice like "take responsibility". OK fine, I can do that. Now I run this risk...

4: take responsibility. Does she...
4a: accept and resolve
4b: accept and punish
4c: assume I am lying because she knows I know that that is what she wants to hear.

So now, I've accepted responsibility, which is what she says she wanted, and now I'm in even MORE trouble because now I must be lying, cuz after all, I "never" accept responsibility.

I guess this just comes down to my needing to be stronger about waiting it out. Talking to a person who is so absorbed in his/her being "right" is a waste. This is the person who will still argue that 2+2=5, despite you showing them on an abacus, calculator, and pile of stones that it equals 4.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock-

No I did not start quite so firm, although I was no pushover that is true. And all these ideas that I am sharing here, I have only been using for less than a year. I used to get pissed, and react in all the ways you are talking about. Then I realised that WAR is a choice. And it does take two. If one refuses to fight - Game Over. To my mind, there is no place for warfare in a marriage. I feel like I have awoken from a long sleep, where I only imagined I was awake. And yet, I still feel I have not fully awoken. Oh well...


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

OK then, I guess there is hope for us all. I am glad its never too late. I was never a "pushover" either, but I certainly could have been a lot more firm.

So as I start to incorporate these strategies, I should be good to go. You are right that fighting can be a waste of time, so why bother.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock-
In post #13 you list the dynamic. So all you have to do is look out for it, and just watch it as if you were an observer. At any time, you can choose to pick up the script and say your lines, or put down the script, and be creative. What you will find is that the other person's reactions will change to mirror the changes in your actions.

Of course I am hinting at being able to drop the ego. This can start off unilateral, but I believe it is also contagious


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

Fighting is not always a waist of time. YOu can learn alot about your spouse and grow stronger if you resolve it. I think it's all about how you resolve conflict that matters, not how often you fight or what about. 
As long as you fight fair.
My DH and I used to go days without talking. We are currently not "talking" right now but we still talk. It takes too much effort to purposely ignore each other. I don't know if we'll ever discuss this matter that leaves us behaving like roomates, but it's easier and less stressful to be decent to each other than to ignore each other.

If I put myself in your wife's shoes (I've been there, I am stubborn at times) I would probably need a couple days. But if you, the husband, came back around to me and said "would you like to talk about the other day again? Maybe we can discuss it more easily today." I would say "absolutely". Hopefully that couple of days would be enough for her to calm down a little and give in a bit more.

Have you tried that yet? You should, and then tell us what she says. But, you have to ask in a polite, nice way. NOt a sarcastic, I could give a sh*t tone. "honey, let's talk about our disagreement the other day. I don't like not talking to you and having this tension. I miss you".

something like that. Then maybe she will listen to your point of view. If she doesn't or she's still heated... then wait a couple more days. That's what I would like my DH to do and that's what I do with him often.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

---"But if you, the husband, came back around to me and said "would you like to talk about the other day again? Maybe we can discuss it more easily today." I would say "absolutely"."

I can give this a try next time (and there WILL be a next time -- that is part of the point of this thread).

Of course the last thing I want is to have to rehash, and be repunished for whatever happened.

OK what would you ladies do if one day your man said to you, something along these lines:

"I am sick and tired of always being 'wrong'. I am constantly trying my best and you are still irritated. When you're ready to move on, you know where to find me".

In responding, please focus more on the sentiment here, and not the actual words. The sentiment is that he is so frustrated with being "in the doghouse" despite his best efforts, that he is unilaterally closing the issue, and any fault/wrongdoing associated therewith, so she can either keep stonewalling or she can stop being mad, but he isn't going to cave so holding out on him is a waste of time.

Assume also, that this isn't a battle of escalation. He won't take away the car or quit doing his chores or whatever. But he will simply not speak to you, pretty much until you tell him that you will not persecute him for the issue.

Would you hear his frustration and decide to cut him a break, or would it be "game on" and hope he cracks first?


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> ---
> 
> OK what would you ladies do if one day your man said to you, something along these lines:
> 
> "I am sick and tired of always being 'wrong'. I am constantly trying my best and you are still irritated. When you're ready to move on, you know where to find me".


Well I've been told previously on this site to be the bigger person even though I feel I am right. It's hard, though.

My husband feels the way you do. That he's always wrong. However, always is not a good word. I have admitted I've been wrong many times. He doesn't choose to remember those times. I like to look at things on an individual basis. Each instance at a time. So this specific instance with you and your wife, you feel she over reacted and you did nothing wrong? 
Correct?

Maybe when you ask to talk again, you can ask her to hear you out. That you need her to listen to you. Then tell her how you feel and what you felt went wrong. 

If you use words like "always" and "never" it makes the other person feel like they can't do anything right. Or they are the bad one. That doesn't win points either. I was hoping, for you and for my situation as well, that by letting time go by and bringing it up later, both parties would be willing to discuss, admit SOME fault and see the other person's point of view. 

I don't know about you, but sometimes our discussions become a battle of words. The discussion spirals out of control, both of us have a different opinion of what happened and it becomes a power struggle eventually. Not always, but each argument seems to get worse.


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## jupiter2007 (Aug 28, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> ---
> 
> OK what would you ladies do if one day your man said to you, something along these lines:
> 
> "I am sick and tired of always being 'wrong'. I am constantly trying my best and you are still irritated. When you're ready to move on, you know where to find me".


My DH HAS said that to me, exactly that. I can't stand it when he says "always" about anything. When he says "No matter what I do, it's NEVER enough. You're ALWAYS mad at me, blah blah blah you ALWAYS, I NEVER" Because it's B.S. And I tell him that.

I wouldn't say it like that at all. Maybe you could say 
"We are obviously having a hard time communicating about this right now. We have come to a stand-still and I would like to move past it. I would really like to talk to you about what we can do to go on from here"

Honestly, not everything can come to who's right and who's wrong, sometimes that it just never going to be resolved and you have to go from there and just do what you can to get through it. 

When DH and I are fighting about something and we calm down to try to talk about it, we just go around and around in circles. And in the end, no one is really right and no one is really wrong.

With an offense like this, there really is no 100% right and 100% wrong, you are both most likely a percentage right and wrong once it's gotten to this place, there is generally a lot of gray area and not just black and white. Especially when it comes to other things that may have been said and done in the course of the fight and not just the initial offense. 

Instead of rehashing everything that happened in all kinds of detail (which are inevitably muddled at this point), talk about what you can BOTH do to keep the situation from happening again in the future, what you can BOTH do differently. And you both need to make the effort to keep it from happening again.

If you continue to just fight over who was right and who was wrong, you BOTH sound like children....not just her. What's more important is getting through it. 

But that's just my opinion on what SHOULD be done. DH and I definitely have this problem as well and we spend hours arguing who's right and who's wrong. It just rarely gets resolved, and there rarely really is a complete right/wrong, unless it was a cut-and-dried, pre-meditated major offense.


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

Well My DH and I are talking, but not about our recent argument. It has gotten swept under the rug again. And to be honest, I'm glad.
When I think back to the argument, it's so stupid, I laugh to myself. 
I think I just need to get out of the house more or plan more dates with my DH. Why do we married couples fight about the dumbest stuff? Why can't I just move past something he said and assume he is having a bad day or didn't intend anything negative. And vice versa on his end. 
I hope he and I do talk about our recent misunderstandings soon, we probably will soon. We will laugh about it but it would be nice to pinpoint our problem so we can avoid it in the future.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

sam-

You are accusing *him *of being aspbergery, but now who's over analysing?


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

OK fine... I fell into the "absolutes trap" and nobody answered my real question. Actually that was a shortcoming on my part and thank you for pointing that out, as had I used that phrasing, she'd have been able to side-track into a debate over the absolute.

However, I really really really want to discuss the specific sentiment, so let me try again.

"It seems to me that despite trying to please you and trying my best, I am in the doghouse so often, that I don't care if you are mad. Don't bother rebuking me because I'm not interested. When you are ready to move on peacefully, let me know."

So I've removed the absolute. In fact, thinking about it, I may even try a shorter formulation. 

"I'm fed up with being in trouble. When you want to move on, let me know".

Again, the sentiment I am trying desperately to capture here is that I am so burned out and gun shy from being in the doghouse, ESPECIALLY as a result of things that were accidents, that being rebuked, stonewalled, or given the silent treatment, or even a sex strike is not going to phase me. I don't mind her taking some time to cool off, but I will not allow her to stonewall for days at a time, and try to crack me. 

At most, I'd allow a grace period of perhaps overnight and through a work day, but multi-day strikes should be eliminated.

Please do keep in mind that during the time I'm being stonewalled, I feel awful and guilty and sorry and upset and wrong. I feel bad for making her mad, but I also feel angry in cases when it was an accident.

So yes, lets focus this time on what I'm really trying to say, though I realize I don't have the benefit of being able to tell HER to focus on that.

Oh FYI, the problem is not with her listening to me. She'll listen to what I'm saying. The problem (and I've noticed this is what people ACTUALLY mean when they say "you're not listening") is that despite what I feel is a legit defense, she discounts it and doesn't forgive me quickly enough. I could explain my whole case, but if she still says "ugh, I don't buy it" or "thats great, but I'm still mad" then what difference does it make.

So yeah: if you got told by your man that he was tired of being in trouble, what would you say?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> being rebuked, stonewalled, or given the silent treatment, or even a sex strike is not going to phase me. I don't mind her taking some time to cool off, but I will not allow her to stonewall for days at a time, and try to crack me.


I ran across that word 'stonewalling' and actually didnt know what it meant. I didnt know it meant the silent treatment. I was reading these articles: http://www.kensavage.com/archives/silent-treatment/
Cold shoulder, silent treatment do more harm than good - Psychology at Purdue

I currently experience intermittent episodes of this abuse and here is what i am doing about it. I am going to email these two articles to my H with a note attached that states that I need him to be aware of the full extent of his 'silent treatments' on my emotional and physical health. That I am not delusional, nor am I overreacting. His behavior is abusive and I am going to have to withdrawal completely if it continues.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> "I'm fed up with being in trouble. When you want to move on, let me know".
> 
> So yeah: if you got told by your man that he was tired of being in trouble, what would you say?


Firstly, I know all about being frozen out. The problem with both your quoted statements, are that they indicate you are not ready to move on, and therefore she will make sure not to let you off the hook. You are waiting for her to let you move on. but by indicating that it might be her who is not letting you move, there is an inference of blame, and she will not back down in that situation.

It took me a long time to master the "counter" to this, and I can't always pull it off in the heat of the moment. But the keys seem to be:

1)Letting go from the inside. 
2)Humour and flirtyness
3)Cheerfulness
4)Never use defence, unless it's of the "sorry I was a jerk" variety.

If you can deploy these things quickly, you will avoid the Big Guns - the sex strike. However, you can chip away at that weapon by making sure that sex is so much fun for her when you do have it, that she is just as much loosing out as you if she calls a strike.

You need to have these strategies running 24/7 not just when you are in the dog house. So you must flirt with her on and off all day as much as you can get away with. Women like a bit of cheekiness more than most "educated" men realise. The bad boys know it and use it.

If you have this stuff running all the time, then even when she goes on a sex strike, it won't seem like you are trying to get her to end it, because she will be used to it being your normal mode of acting with her. However, your flirtyness and humour will melt her very quickly.

Look, people have said I make it sound too easy, so I will tell you right now, someone else gave me this strategy (the flirty cheek part) on another forum, and I just could not grasp it, and it was my WIFE who read it and said, "that's what you need to be doing". And the little minx has the cheek to tell me when I forget to keep doing it!

I just want to go over one point again:
4)Never use defence, unless it's of the "I was just being a jerk" variety.

This can be used for really difficult situations because it's very disarming. It *validates *the woman, and you can tell. When I last used it, I heard her saying "yeah" under her breath! So that means she was agreeing with me (that I am a jerk). When people are in an argument there is disagreement. So if she is agreeing with you, you are no longer arguing. You need to capitalise on that with a favour or two - do something nice for her.

I had a situation like this a few days ago, I really slipped up. I used these methods and they worked, but anger kept re-surfacing. Not only that, but it turned out I had issues around the subject and I was getting angry too. So I had to keep re-applying the strategies both to her and myself, and after 3 days, we got totally past it. But it was hardly hell in between, it's just that we kept having the odd thing re-surface, but the love and the humour were in the mix also.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

ljtseng said:


> His behavior is abusive and I am going to have to withdrawal completely if it continues.


You are right, but are you now contemplating using the same?


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> sam-
> 
> You are accusing *him *of being aspbergery, but now who's over analysing?


ouch, seems like I've gotten on your bad side. Guess I can't say anything right here, either. 
Over analysing? Don't we all do that? I sure wish my DH over analyzed sometimes, would take alot off my mind. 

I came here with a problem, because I didn't want to be the "bigger" person this time and apologize, isn't that normal once in awhile? I feel like because I didn't choose to do the easy thing everyone was telling me (I still wanted to vent and was still angry) that you (MT) have been on my case. What is it that rubs you the wrong way? 

This time, I do not want to argue with my DH. I don't want to apologize, either, since he was the one who was not at my side when I needed him to be. I have stated I have tried to change my attitude, my tone of voice, the words I use, my gestures, my sexual advances but they don't seem to work with him. Sometimes he's more stubborn than me. He's very sensitive. 
So this one time I don't want to be the one to do the work to make it right. I am debated a separation. I am at my wits end.

Then a couple of days go by and we are talking, but only about our child and daily schedules. Not about our disagreement. There are no loving gestures or exchanges. This is how it usually is with us and I am getting used to it. So now I get grief from MT because why? 

Maybe sometimes, the easy answers don't always work. Maybe, sometimes, both parties don't want to budge. Maybe this is one of those times? Maybe this is that one last stupid argument that does us in. But you seem offended that I don't just get on my knees and beg my husband's forgiveness.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

sam-

Sorry if I was a little curt. We are just debating here. If I point out a problem with your strategy, it does not mean I am down on you. I like you! But we can't always agree, and I don't want to be nicey-nice with you just to humour you.



> Over analysing? Don't we all do that? I sure wish my DH over analyzed sometimes, would take alot off my mind.


Well that was my point, you seem to think that a certain amount of analysis must be performed, whereas I think it would be better if we could all just get along.

But I do have a strategy worked out for you to get him to *want *sex 7 days a week, which I mentioned before on one of your threads, and I can write some more if you wish.

So are we cool now? ​


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> You are right, but are you now contemplating using the same?



Well, no. the silent treatment is a form of punishment meant to control the victim. when i say withdrawal i do not mean to give the silent treatment, but i mean i will protect myself so i am not emotionally vulnerable anymore. that doesnt mean i have to be silent or i am angry, seeking revenge, control, etc, which is what the silent treatment is. It just means that I will keep the emotional intimacy at such a level that I will be able to protect myself from such abuse.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> So yeah: if you got told by your man that he was tired of being in trouble, what would you say?


He actually has told me this a lot. At first i didnt listen to him because i was angry. i thought he was just being selfish. But gradually I've started to listen to him more and i have changed my approach and have become more careful about how i talk to him. But he has also gotten better at apologizing without constantly becoming defensive. so maybe its an inverse relationship. It took us years though! so hang in there.


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

Yes, MT, we're cool. I wouldn't want anyone to be nice just to be nice. I appreciate honesty. It just seemed like you were all of a sudden pointing the finger at me. I know I need to look at myself, as well. I would love to know more advice or suggestions that you may have. 

silent treatment:
When is it the silent treatment and when is it a man in his cave sorting through things?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

samantharose said:


> silent treatment:
> When is it the silent treatment and when is it a man in his cave sorting through things?


well to me personally this comes from just knowing your spouse. sometimes a spouse does need a cooling off period, and often men like to stay in their own little world. and usually women do the silent treatment more then men. so its more probable that a man is not doing this. but, if one knows their spouse, its very easy to differentiate when a man is giving the silent treatment.

the silent treatment evokes certain feelings that are very unsettling. One feels frustrated, confused, angry, worthless, unwanted, belittled, and like their feelings don't matter at all- to me the biggest indicator of a silent treatment. it will occur after high emotions, like during a fight, and all of a sudden they will just not talk to you. It is a control tactic. Men do this sometimes because they feel insecure in an argument, like they cant keep up with what the women is saying, or because they have a power complex and feel they are losing. they wont even discuss it and hardly, if at all, acknowledge you even exist. There will be this air of absolute indifference to how you are feeling. 

This of course is all from my point of view. I did a lot of reading about it (just google 'silent treatment') and it is a very real abuse that should not be allowed to go unchecked.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

---"The problem with both your quoted statements, are that they indicate you are not ready to move on, and therefore she will make sure not to let you off the hook."

I disagree with this. In the instance I suffered, I personally did not think that the offense was worth making any deal of at all. I felt no real remorse at what I had done whatsoever, only frustration and irritation because I knew I was going to be in trouble again, and had to either buy peace or deal with a few days of tension. I had no interest in discussing what I felt was a simple accident (discussion rarely goes my way anyway). But to her, it caused her grief and pain and it might as well have been the end of the world. 

At the end of the day thats what I felt was most unfair -- that her feelings got to dictate the outcome, and that mine had seemingly no value whatsoever. I know that because I lost bad. I got punished. Sure I got peace quicker than i might have, but it was pretty much from surrender.

I can see how validating her in any way gives her more motivation not to let me off the hook. In fact, I think I partly caused my own downfall by seeing it her way and admitting it was a big deal. I really really believe that is the root of the problem -- if she knows I'm going to validate her feelings, she knows she can hold out.

I already do the flirty and "you're so beautiful" and "I want you" and all that humor junk pretty often. However I know that eventually I'm GOING to find myself in the same situation, where it was an accident but she is mad. Thats why I want to be armed for next time.

I'm not saying that I have to be an uptight self-righteous jerk about it, but I'm just burned out on discussion. All discussion does is make her extrapolate and start bringing up "zombie" issues. I can understand not defending -- its a waste of time and breath cuz she'll just hear it as an excuse which will make her madder

---"feel insecure in an argument, like they cant keep up with what the women is saying, or because they have a power complex and feel they are losing."

OK this is EXACTLY what happened to me! I felt like any discussion was a waste of time because she'd either cut through my arguments (leaving me wondering how I didn't see that coming), dismiss my points (leaving me feeling insignificant) or extrapolate (adding new issues to defend against). I refuse to believe that I'm that dumb that I can't ever defend myself. I felt like my defense was valid, and she didn't, so oh well she gets her way. 

What happens when her defense makes sense to her, but I think its bunk? Will I get to dictate the punishment? Not likely cuz she'll probably just tell me to "take it like a man" (which I'm convinced ACTUALLY means: drop the issue, forfeit any desire for being made whole, and act as if I was not hurt/wronged).

Do I just have to stand there grinning and trying to be humerous like a big dopey teddy bear saying "I'm so sowwy hunny, i was a dopey dope"? Why bother saying anything when its just going to have the opposite effect?


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

You know, I think the simple answer is to just let her take her time. I can make an attempt to discuss it, but if she doesn't want to talk, I need to show ABSOLUTELY NO HURT WHATSOEVER.

The silent treatment works because the user gets power seeing the victim struggle. The user manipulates fear, insecurity, and tension in order to get the victim to surrender his/her rights and give in.

If that is not a possibility, then the tactic has no power.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock-

Perhaps I underestimated the sheer darkness of her assaults. However, the methods I am advocating involve doing them form the standpoint of confidence and firmness. Can you imagine me rolling over like a dumb poodle? Go ask Mrs. Twain about that one. 

I did acquire another skill that transformed my self image, and unexpectedly so, but it's not for everyone. I have written about it on the link below, but I have yet to write up it's psychological benefits, partly because I am still a newbie, and partly because I like men to find out for themselves, without feeding them information that would cause them to prejudge the situation. However, as the sheer weight of you emotion is strongly felt in your last post, I feel inclined to throw caution to the winds and tell my secrets.

Basically, I decided not to ejaculate every time we had sex. I explain why in the link. This not only caused me to enjoy sex a lot more, it had other effects. I became a lot more sure of myself. Maybe it was simply due to the testosterone boost. Maybe my serotonin levels are up, who knows? 

Semen Retention


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

The biggest result was being able to understand my wife - I don't claim 100% mastery, but for some reason, I noticed that when she talks, I now hear the official version, and the *real* deal in parallel. I know this must sound mad, but it's like there is an interpreter in my head.

However, I have said far too much


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

Its funny how the "real" version is never the way you want it to be. Is she putting all this effort into understanding you? Why does the assumption always have to be that I am wrong, and that the actual version (or at least, the version we will use to move forward) has to be hers.

No thanks, I'm done. Next time, I'll wait at most a day. If we can't resolve things with calm discussion, then I'm going to repeat over and over to myself "remember how badly you lost last time" and remember exactly how miserable I felt, and that the only way I'll break that is by NOT giving in.

I'm afraid that if I show any validation whatsoever about what she is saying, that it will give her more of a foothold. She needs to feel like she is totally off base and has zero leverage and zero justification for whatever she is feeling. I am so fed up with being the loser.

Thank you all.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> Its funny how the "real" version is never the way you want it to be. Is she putting all this effort into understanding you?


She has been understanding me better lately, since I started practising the semen retention. She had a few insights of her own.

Man you sound bitter. I don't believe in sticking plaster. Let's hear it all...


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

Its just frustration from being so much a part of causing this problem. So many years of trying to understand things and "see it her way" which is what I thought women really wanted.

I see now that "seeing it her way" and "accepting her way as the right way" are two different things. There is no problem with understanding another point of view. The problem is when the other POV is almost always the one that is prioritized over your own.


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## stumped (May 16, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> It happens to everyone at some point. He does something stupid, totally by accident, totally without malice or bad intent... just a dumb mistake. It wasn't even something huge (though to her the result is huge of course). She gets mad. MAD mad.
> 
> He apologizes, he feels AWFUL. He can only really say "I'm sorry" so many times, because it was just an innocent, albeit stupid mistake. But in her mind, she might as well have been publicly beaten, and had the video posted online.
> 
> ...



I guess everyone one is different but for me I usually need to Talk (maybe yell) about what I am upset about so I can make sure YOU know exaclty why I was so bad. Depending on the severity of the issue dictates the length of the tongue lashing (I think the longes one was maybe 5 minutes) once I get it off my chest I am fine with it. An apology certainly helps the situation and if it was REALLY a big deal maybe an Im sorry card. I think I might be one of the easier ones to get over something though...I dont hold grudges or stay angry life is too short.


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## stumped (May 16, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> One thing I do now, which I could not do when I was young and hot headed, is to listen, take the blame, and say sorry with out arguing or defending myself. Of course it has to be authentic. I have found it works, but you may have to take more than one "beating", before she feels validated.


Exaclty dont try to validate it just apologize for it =)


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

---The problem with both your quoted statements, are that they indicate you are not ready to move on, and therefore she will make sure not to let you off the hook. You are waiting for her to let you move on.---

I woke up thinking about this thread and I'm glad I revisited it, because I just noticed the above.

So let me revise the sentiment again. This time I'll write out two parts: how I feel inside, and what I will say.

On the inside, I feel frustrated and fed up. I feel angry and resentful. I feel like I do way too much around here to have my gf treat me like she is my mother or my teacher, with the authority to punish me. I feel like saying "I don't care if you're mad, you have it way too good around here".

In fact that really is quite accurate. I feel like "oh great, she's mad AGAIN, what STUPID thing is it this time, did I forget to face north-northwest when I was sorting the mail" I feel like whatever dumb irrational thing she is mad about is something that any sane normal reasonable person wouldn't think twice about, and I'm tired of dancing on eggshells. 

I am not interested in apologizing. I am not interested in being punished. I am not interested in talking about our feelings. I am not interested in groveling like a fool and asking "what can I do to make it up to you" beacuse I feel there is nothing to make up. If anything, SHE should be down on her KNEES thanking ME for putting up with her, and not booting her out of MY house for her disgusting behavior. SHE should be cooking me an apology dinner, with apology sex afterwards, and SHE should be walking on eggshells.

Now that we've covered how I FEEL, I need to figure out how to convey that in a very succinct, matter-of-fact, and absolute way.

Please don't forget, we are talking about cases where I really haven't done anything wrong... certainly nothing worth that level of treatment. I realize that in HER eyes, whatever it is is a "big deal" but thats the root of the problem... that so MUCH seems to be a big deal. You do not need to describe my forgetting to run the dryer as a "shattering of trust" and then extrapolate about how it means i must be cheating.

- So maybe a Tyler Durden (fight club) style "this conversation, is over"? and then I walk away.

- Maybe a slight modification: "this issue is closed".

Should I walk away, or should I just stand there glaring at her like she is an insignificant ant that I could squash at any time, and make HER walk away. I feel like if I walk away, then I'm retreating.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock-

Jeeeeez man, I feel for you.

My answer is, _do_ nothing.
Work on how you feel inside, and your self worth. When you start to feel like a cool and totally worthwhile guy, _she_ will feel it, and start respecting you more.

Of course, there is always a form of words that, when uttered with perfect timing will cause maximum impact, but why bother? Do you really want a war with your loved one?

Let's fast forward into the future, to a time when your self-image is in perfect resonance with who you really are. At that point, if your g/f kept treating you in this awful way, you would probably be thinking, gee, it's time to move on to greener pastures. You would just gently let her go.

But the better and more likely scenario is that as your own self respect grows, she will be so blown away with how fabulous you are, that she just wouldn't want to blow it. 

Reach into yourself and find the treasure within. Oh dear, I'm not making any sense


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

Hmmmm..... well it is no fun to fight with someone who won't fight back. Maybe if I just stand there listening, and say absolutely nothing (which has the added benefit of giving her no words to twist) she'll just get tired and give up.

Plus, I know one of the signs of cheating is that a person stops fighting over petty things bc he/she is too happy to get bogged down. Maybe I could twist that to my advantage as well.

One thing you said especially makes sense... she needs more fear. She needs to believe that in an instant, she can be booted off the gravy train, and have to do without all the things she wants.

To think I used to believe that the best thing you could do for a relationship was to assert that you'd always be there and affirm your commitment. Hooooo hoooo the ignorance of youth


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> To think I used to believe that the best thing you could do for a relationship was to assert that you'd always be there and affirm your commitment. Hooooo hoooo the ignorance of youth


You are correct, but your relationship has gotten sick, and you have to take some of the responsibility for that. As long as you feel it's all merely happened to you, you will continue be powerless. Once you see your part in it, you will know how to right things. But with the firmness, must come an equal measure of love. I don't hear the love coming from you. Do you still love her or not?


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I love her very much, but the only part in this I will acknowledge is that I didn't smack it down from the get go. The very first time she pulled some of this junk, I should have said "absolutely not".

But I was afraid I'd lose her, or I rationalized it by saying she was upset about this or that, or I'd agree that I had done something wrong (she was always able to explain it in a way that made ME seem wrong, so I believed it).

If I had had the confidence to argue back and say "I'm not buying that" she wouldn't have kept doing it. Sure, to HER it may be a really really really big deal that I didn't buff the doorknobs before her boss came over. But I shouldn't have allowed her to act like it was as big a deal as she thought.

Otherwise, shouldn't I get the same liberties? When she leaves a shoe on the stairs, should I get to freak out, tell her this is a total breech of trust, and that I think it means she is cheating, and then demand punishment?

I think many times I also decided it just wasn't worth an argument. Neither of us was going to admit the other is right (at least not meaning it) so why bother arguing? Just let her THINK she is right, and then she'll shut up and life goes on. Otherwise, arguing won't get me what I want, it'll just prolong the stupidity.

This is why smart guys keep their mouths SHUT. Don't give her anything to work with.

Oh and as far as "she needs to see the love". Sorry but if the house she gets to live in, the food she gets to eat, the chores I take care of, the little niceties and things I do, and the help I give when asked is NOT enough? Then someone has an unrealistic and unattainable idea of what love is. Maybe I should make the argument that because she doesn't give me bj's every day, she doesn't really love me, and see how well that goes over.

Yeah, I'd be "wrong", cuz bj's on the hour don't show love (because she says they don't) so it mus be so. Oh but buffing doorknobs DOES show love. Bollocks...

(the doorknob thing isn't real, just an example of the level of ridiculousness I put up with sometimes)


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock-

I don't think you're quite getting me. I mean _you_ should feel the love. As for the sex thing, you have to decide what your minimum standard is, and if it falls below that, your can decide what you next move is.

If you have even the slightest worry about how your legitimate demands might make someone leave you, then you should take that as an indicator that your self image is not as high as it could be. Someone with high self worth will say to themselves - I am not getting the appreciation I deserve, I am going. To an outsider, it would appear as though you think she is a better person than you. Or a sexier person, or just above your equal in some way.

If your fear of loosing someone colours your behaviour and cows you then I can guarantee your life is going to be miserable.

If my harsh words strike a chord, then stop. Stop trying to win these arguments. Stop the anger. The battle is only with yourself. Get your head in shape, and all will be well.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I know there is love there. The sex thing also as I said has been better. No more month long droughts, we are on a good frequency.

I'm just irritated with stupid little things, and I don't want to take them anymore. No more being punished for insignificant neurotic garbage. No more having to make amends for unimportant things. The world does not revolve around one person, and some people would do well to understand that.

I've been working on my esteem issues, and continue to do so.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> I've been working on my esteem issues, and continue to do so.


When your self-esteem is full to over flowing, then you can afford to be generous to others. Generosity before that point will always be taken the wrong way, and will often be offered as a way of keeping the other person sweet.


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