# What kind of secret is my wife hiding from me?



## Two the Point

When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.

(Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.) 

After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.

Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him." 

This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.

Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:

The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.

*Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*

Thank you.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Maybe it's a person from your past that would trigger you in some way, or someone close to you like a family member or similar.


----------



## maquiscat

Two the Point said:


> When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.
> 
> (Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)
> 
> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.
> 
> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.
> 
> Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:
> 
> The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.
> 
> *Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*
> 
> Thank you.


At this point the reasons are moot. The fact that she has deceived you, and withheld this information, means that trust is out the window. Even as a poly, I won't put up with that. At this point even the virgin issue as long since sailed. You have to decide whether you want to continue the relationship with such a woman.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


----------



## EveningThoughts

Maybe he was married or in a committed relationship, and you knowing could result in his wife/girlfriend finding out.

Or he was her superior/boss/tutor etc.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

She lied to you about being a virgin and that had understandably damaged the trust in your marriage. However, I suspect she was under a lot of social pressure to do so and probably has been made to feel a lot of shame (suffice it to say our views on premarital sex are quite different).

Even though she wasn't honest with you about her virginity, the details of her sexual life before you are really none of your business. You need to find another way to rebuild the trust in your marriage than forcing her to talk about this further. Please respect her boundaries on this.


----------



## ccpowerslave

How is she trickle truthing this information out to you and why? Are you asking repeatedly for this and driving yourself nuts? Since you don’t know what happened before you met her, if she wanted to I’m sure she could come up with an endless list of partners real or not.


----------



## Andy1001

It’s either a family member or yours or else it was a married man who she was having an affair with. Or it’s still ongoing.
Just my opinion. 
I would be wondering how many more men she’ll going to admit to having sex with. 
By the way it’s interesting how you don’t want to discuss your views on virginity with total strangers who have no personal issues with your opinions but you are still married to the one person who should have been one hundred percent in agreement with you. 
She really doesn’t care a toss about your views, she wanted a suitable husband and she picked you.
How on earth can you trust her.


----------



## marcy*

Why is she hiding? Maybe the third person is someone she wants to stay away from, maybe not proud being in a relationship with him, many reasons that may hsve nothing to do with you. Anyway, if you learn who this third person is, is this going to change anything? How knowing the men she is been with is going to help your relationship with her when she wasn’t honest with you?! Does it matter who they were ?


----------



## bobert

Alternatively, it was rape and that makes her not want to talk about it. Could go either way IMO.


----------



## oldtruck

normally better to not go into past relationships before you met.
however she lied to you and has no right to not tell you who the
3rd OM is. though what she tells you may cause you to leave
her.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Either someone you or she is currently friends with, one of your close family members or someone she currently works closely with. Either way you have Biblical grounds for divorce due to her fornication and deception, on going at that!


----------



## happyhusband0005

Normally I'm in the camp of what happens before two people get together is none of the current partners business and it is inconsequential. However I see the fact that you were very clear with her about your beliefs and values and she chose to lie about her virginity as a big problem. Forget about anything sex related or anything involving the past. Lying from day one is a very very bad omen for the future.


----------



## Casual Observer

AGoodFlogging said:


> She lied to you about being a virgin and that had understandably damaged the trust in your marriage. However, I suspect she was under a lot of social pressure to do so and probably has been made to feel a lot of shame (suffice it to say our views on premarital sex are quite different).
> 
> Even though she wasn't honest with you about her virginity, the details of her sexual life before you are really none of your business. You need to find another way to rebuild the trust in your marriage than forcing her to talk about this further. Please respect her boundaries on this.


The details of her prior sexual life would not have been his business if she had told him so beforehand. But she chose to lie and deceive. It's essentially fraud, and it's up to him what that means to him. Especially since she's gone the trickle-truth route.

Unfortunately I understand his situation far too well. When this happens, it may feel pretty much precisely like you read how people feel when it's discovered their partner has had an affair. You and I and everyone else may argue whether that's an appropriate way to feel, but for some of us, it is. And if that's the case, then the guidelines for dealing with it might require similar steps to those when dealing with a wayward spouse.

Above all, the deceptive partner needs to have massive empathy/understanding of what the betrayed spouse is going through. In this case, all she may be thinking about is the need to protect herself, the need to protect the decision she made years ago to not hide her past but actively deceive. And she's making it so so so much worse by introducing a third person whom she will not reveal. In the betrayed spouse's mind, this creates images and feelings likely much worse than any possible reality. The unknown becomes the over-riding messaging of their relationship. 

She had every right in the world to insist on privacy about her past. And he could have dealt with that however he needed to, and he would have built his own rationalization about how that was OK, or it wasn't. But she instead chose to construct a past that wasn't true.


----------



## Casual Observer

Divinely Favored said:


> Either someone you or she is currently friends with, one of your close family members or someone she currently works closely with. Either way you have Biblical grounds for divorce due to her fornication and deception, on going at that!


I think we can dispense entirely with "biblical grounds for divorce." This is about ethics and decency more so than morals (admitting that there's no clear distinction between the two). Deception in an LTR is probably a nearly-universal bad thing across cultures and those religious and those who choose not to be.


----------



## Mr.Married

Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.

She isn’t telling you because it’s someone close to you/her..... or he was married.... or it was a threesome.... or it was another girl.


----------



## VladDracul

Two the Point said:


> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage.


These various thing won't be her mastery of various sex positions and techniques would it? Your chick obviously withheld her prior carnal knowledge because it was what you wanted to hear and what she needed to do the secure the relationship. Another possibility of the third romp is a person of another race or another chick. Now its on you, and only you, to decided what you're going to do with it.


----------



## Casual Observer

Mr.Married said:


> Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.
> 
> She isn’t telling you because it’s someone close to you/her..... or he was married.... or it was a threesome.... or it was another girl.


Then you shouldn't marry someone you think can't handle it. Plenty of people can. And many of those people could have, given the opportunity up front, but can't, when it becomes a deception later. Huge f'in difference between the two.

Plus it's going to affect a lot of people, having to carry with them such secrets, especially given that things have a way of being found out at random times down the road. They may live with a fear of being found out, a fear that causes problems in the marriage because if you can live a really big lie, then who's to say it doesn't make sense to lie about many other things, when you can rationalize that the end justifies the means?

Again, agreeing that the sexual past is the past is FINE. Let each partner CHOOSE and DISCLOSE their feelings about privacy and boundaries, before marriage. If there are fuzzy gray areas, get them out of the way. Talk. Seek help. Don't keep a secret that, if found out, could wreck everything.


----------



## jlg07

Mr.Married said:


> Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.
> 
> She isn’t telling you because it’s someone close to you/her..... or he was married.... or it was a threesome.... or it was another girl.


This isn't about him "not being able to handle it" -- this is about her FLAT OUT lying about what she knew was super important to him. She lied to get what she wanted. NOW she is trickle truthing and CONTINUES to not tell him the truth?
BS -- he needs to know the truth so that HE can now make a decision that SHE SHOULD have allowed him to do before they got married.
OP, if she continues to NOT tell you about the 3rd relationship, that should tell you that she values that information OVER you and your marriage. Something YOU then need to think about....


----------



## manfromlamancha

Possible reasons:


it happened after you were exclusively together;
it was a relative;
it was someone who was a close friend of yours;
he was married;
he was married to a close friend or relative;
he is still around in your life;
it was someone you particularly hate or detest;
it was a threesome or involved kinky stuff;
All possible reasons.


----------



## Evinrude58

He wanted a virgin. She lied and said she was. She’s not. It doesn’t really matter at this point if there’s been 3 or 30. 

So OP, what are you wanting to hear?
She’s not a virgin. She lied. Nothing we can say will alter the fact that she’s a liar.

And there’s no way for you to find out the truth, because she’s the only one who knows and she’s a liar.

So what are your plans?

You do realize in the times we are in a virgin is a relatively unheard of thing.

I have only met one that I believed was one.
You don’t have one.

Are you now going to divorce your wife?


----------



## SunCMars

marcy* said:


> Why is she hiding? Maybe the third person is someone she wants to stay away from, maybe not proud being in a relationship with him, many reasons that may hsve nothing to do with you. Anyway, if you learn who this third person is, is this going to change anything? How knowing the men she is been with is going to help your relationship with her when she wasn’t honest with you?! *Does it matter who they were ?*


It matters, because it matters to her.

She tossed this one out like one does a hand grenade.
Why?

Keep a close watch on your marriage, going forward.
I suspect her heavier leg is already out the door.


_King Brian-_


----------



## SunCMars

Women hide their past lovers for a reason, sometimes many reasons.

All of these reasons are personal and not upfront.


----------



## Gabriel

I'd be more upset that she lied Once, Twice, now Three times.

You married her under false pretenses and this is a big deal. For all you know, there were 5, 10, 15 men.

You might say, NO WAY - but hey, remember when you thought she was a virgin? Now you know she's ****ed three other men. 

Point is, you can't trust this woman. You either need to be okay with not trusting her, or divorce.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Gabriel said:


> Once, Twice, now Three times.


...a lady?


----------



## sokillme

Two the Point said:


> When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.
> 
> (Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)
> 
> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.
> 
> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.
> 
> Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:
> 
> The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.
> 
> *Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*
> 
> Thank you.


Ask your wife is she was raped. I suspect the third man is a family member. 

Regardless, I think you are never going to get the truth? How long have you been married do you have kids?

If you don't have kids I would hold off. You are in for a hard road that you may decide is not worth the effort.


----------



## TAMAT

Two the Point,

The thing is that your Wife deceived you before marriage and took your virginity from you dishonestly.

You have grounds for an annulment particularly a religious one and possibly a legal one, and certainly for a divorce.

Given the enormity of what has been taken from you, possibly especially from a non-Western perspective, the least she should do is tell you the name and details.

If as likely it’s a married man or other objectionable partner you should tell the mans’ wife about the affair. It's also possible it was another woman, professor, boss, religious leader or someone else she is protecting from your wrath or exposure.

You will grow to resent your Wife more and more if she continues to keep this secret, even more so as she has trickle truthed you which is a form of slow torture. I certainly hope you do not have children at this time.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Regardless of the religious belief or not or her secret you sir married a liar of the worse caliber, and that alone for constitute grounds for divorce....you realize you will never trust her...you sir have bigger problems than just her secret...you don’t know who you married


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Putting myself in your shoes, I would really not wonder about her motivation about withholding information on the third person. Your entire marriage is built on deceit, lies and deception. What else is she lying about what other deceit is she hiding and how else is she deceiving you right now?

Is it worth keeping this person in your life, OP?


----------



## Young at Heart

Mr.Married said:


> Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.......


Actually it is a reason why women should keep their legs together, as too many men can't handle the idea of all those other men sharing the same vagina.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Young at Heart said:


> Actually it is a reason why women should keep their legs together, as too many men can't handle the idea of all those other men sharing the same vagina.


Seconded and most men not trying to be PC will agree. Certainly most men I know (if not all) feel this way.


----------



## Young at Heart

Two the Point said:


> ........After we had been married for quite awhile.....she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. ..... Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> ....*Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*


Lots of reasons and most of them have been expressed by others. However the big reason and the one you may want to contemplate is two fold.

She may now feel that this third sex partner may be the straw that broke the camel's back and she may loose you if she reveals who it is or the details. She is setting a hard boundary in not telling you.

The real thing you need to decide is despite her lies, despite her not being trust worthy or meeting your "values" do you want the marriage to continue or not. If you want it to continue, they you need to accept her hard boundary and let go of the past. You can make a hard boundary of your own, should you want. You can tell her, that she needs to earn your trust in the future and that you are and will be very disappointed in her. You expected much more from the woman you confided in and wed.

Because you seem religious, I would suggest you and your wife get some marriage counseling to put this once and for all behind the two of you. If she can't reveal the third person to you, then have her confess it to a priest or minister without you being present and have them pray for her forgiveness from God and from you the husband she deceived. 

Good luck. Bait and Switch is not an honorable way to live.


----------



## oldshirt

oldtruck said:


> normally better to not go into past relationships before you met.
> however she lied to you and has no right to not tell you who the
> 3rd OM is. though what she tells you may cause you to leave
> her.


She has a right to her privacy and is under no obligation to disclose anyone’s name or details of their relationship.

That being said however, since she basically perpetuated fraud on a matter that was very important to the OP and the OP presumably would not have entered into a relationship with her knowing these findings, he is in his right to end the marriage. 

So basically what I am saying is he has no right to interrogate her for further details and has no right to abuse or mistreat her...... but he is not obligated to remain with her. 

If his respect and feelings for her have been so damaged and disparaged that he can no longer love and honor her as a husband should, he is within his right end the marriage.

She is entitled to her privacy. But she is not entitled to marriage to a man she knowingly and intentionally deceived on a matter that was critical him for marriage.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Young at Heart said:


> Actually it is a reason why women should keep their legs together, as too many men can't handle the idea of all those other men sharing the same vagina.


Ok, Mr. Friess......









Foster Friess: In my day, women "used Bayer aspirin for contraceptives"


Santorum backer says that in his day, women "used Bayer aspirin for contraceptives"




www.cbsnews.com


----------



## oldshirt

He doesn’t have a right to badger, defame or mistreat her.

But he does have the right to divorce her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

At this point I think OP is more interested in why she is not telling him who the 3rd man was - and why tell him about it if she was not prepared to say who he was!


----------



## Dictum Veritas

oldshirt said:


> He doesn’t have a right to badger, defame or mistreat her.
> 
> But he does have the right to divorce her.


He also has the right to tell everybody who cares to listen exactly why he is divorcing her. The truth is not badgering or defaming and although unkind, her providing a lie as the basis for the marriage is the only mistreatment I can see here.


----------



## Mr.Married

This thread is a good indicator that sexism isn’t as muted as I thought.


----------



## Diana7

Mr.Married said:


> Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.
> 
> She isn’t telling you because it’s someone close to you/her..... or he was married.... or it was a threesome.... or it was another girl.


Its not about not handling it, its about the fact that she lied and lied about at least 3 men already. He made it clear what he believed and wanted and she deceived him. She married him under false pretenses.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I thought God was forgiving. Isn't it more important that one is celibate during the relationship? Isn't that an act of whatever it's called in Christianity. It just seems so much pressure on women who can't turn back time.

In any case, for the next time, I think you have a better chance at getting at the truth is by listening to what they say. Ask indirect questions. Watch TV and movies and listen to songs and critique books together. What does their opinion of these sources say to you? If you were to ask someone "You're not going to cheat on me, are you?" do you think you will get an honest answer?

Or maybe better still, look for your life partner in groups that extol these virtues. My cousin, for whom celibacy was very important before marriage, met his wife in bible class when they were in graduate school. Both of them were nonvirgins


----------



## NextTimeAround

manfromlamancha said:


> At this point I think OP is more interested in why she is not telling him who the 3rd man was - and why tell him about it if she was not prepared to say who he was!


Maybe because she sees that he's still around and the DS here will learn about it anyway.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

NextTimeAround said:


> I thought God was forgiving. Isn't it more important that one is celibate during the relationship? Isn't that an act of whatever it's called in Christianity. It just seems so much pressure on women who can't turn back time.


No one has the right to dictate to another what their priorities and deal breakers should be and using God as a reason to have someone soften their stance on morals is intellectually dishonest and an appeal to Authority logical fallacy that is also highly inappropriate.


----------



## Diana7

I cant understand why she would have bothered to tell you about man no 3 and then refused to say who it was.


NextTimeAround said:


> I thought God was forgiving. Isn't it more important that one is celibate during the relationship? Isn't that an act of whatever it's called in Christianity. It just seems so much pressure on women who can't turn back time.
> 
> In any case, for the next time, I think you have a better chance at getting at the truth is by listening to what they say. Ask indirect questions. Watch TV and movies and listen to songs and critique books together. What does their opinion of these sources say to you? If you were to ask someone "You're not going to cheat on me, are you?" do you think you will get an honest answer?
> 
> Or maybe better still, look for your life partner in groups that extol these virtues. My cousin, for whom celibacy was very important before marriage, met his wife in bible class when they were in graduate school. Both of them were nonvirgins


Lying is a very serious thing and lying to a spouse you are going to marry is even worse surely? Yes God forgives if you repent but repenting doesnt mean you can lie about it, it means you face up to the consequences of what you have done. .

OP, in your place I would know that the trust had gone, and if she refused to tell who the 3rd man was, then that for me would be the nail in the coffin of the marriage. I would just say, either you tell me who he is and of any other man you had sex with or the marriage is over now. Once you know, then you have to make that decision as to whether the trust has gone or you want to stay. 

Anyne who says well I had sex with this man but I refuse to tell you who it was is taunting you and playing with your emotions.


----------



## Diana7

Mr.Married said:


> This thread is a good indicator that sexism isn’t as muted as I thought.


Where is the sexism?


----------



## Livvie

Young at Heart said:


> Actually it is a reason why women should keep their legs together, as too many men can't handle the idea of all those other men sharing the same vagina.


So you also believe then that men should keep it in their pants, because women don't want the idea of all of those other women sharing the same ****?


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Livvie said:


> So you also believe then that men should keep it in their pants, because women don't want the idea of all of those other women sharing the same ****?


Women have the right to their deal breakers and men have the right to theirs, I can not speak to what those are from the perspective of a woman, because I am clearly a man, but for me as a man, marrying the village bicycle is a definite no-no and as far as my numerous conversations with a plethora of men has indicated, there seems to be wide consensus on this.


----------



## Diana7

Dictum Veritas said:


> Women have the right to their deal breakers and men have the right to theirs, I can not speak to what those are from the perspective of a woman, because I am clearly a man, but for me as a man, marrying the village bicycle is a definite no-no and as far as my numerous conversations with a plethora of men has indicated, there seems to be wide consensus on this.


I thnk it applies to some women as well. I wouldnt have married a man who has had many partners.


----------



## moulinyx

This thread is so off topic.

The point is his wife lied to him after he expressed hard stops in order to continue the path to marriage. It doesn’t matter what the hard stops were or his reasonings. She lied to get what she wanted (marriage) and now the husband is pissed.

This has nothing to do with sex, virginity, number of partners and everything to do with being lied to. This isn’t what he wanted and he made it very clear before continuing building the relationship.


----------



## SunCMars

Livvie said:


> So you also believe then that men should keep it in their pants, because women don't want the idea of all of those other women sharing the same ****?


Aye, Lassie, that is the long and short of it when is comes to the man we love. We want to own that stick forward, from the time of puberty to now.

Love for some, actually for many, is that their lover was saved (from humanities taint), just for them.

It is a good feeling that your man was set-aside specifically for your enjoyment.


_Gwendolyn-_


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Diana7 said:


> I thnk it applies to some women as well. I wouldnt have married a man who has had many partners.


I applaud you for your clear boundary and respect it as such. Good for you!


----------



## SunCMars

Men want what they want, get what they get.

I can say, that the getting is more important when your quest is ecstatic with being owned, lock, stock and barrel. 

She will be having no more trial runs. That is the plan, the goal, that wish.

A lady tried and true, works for me.
What mature man wants a rookie cookie?
...........................................................................

In OP's case, the lady has more aces up her sleeve and more notches on her bedpost than first revealed.
Certainly OK, if it were not lied about.

Lying lips evidenced by lying slips.

A ladies past is her business, if she chooses to reveal her past she should do so honestly....every time.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

SunCMars said:


> A ladies past is her business, if she chooses to reveal her past she should do so honestly....every time.


Her past may be her business and who I marry is mine. The past being a good predictor of the future I have always made it my business to ask about the ladies past and a past unrevealed or lied about is a path to my heart shut solid as good as a past peppered with putrid passions embrace and definitely if even once a pair or past of men enjoyed her passion at once.

The past matters and can mute the music of my heart if I don't like either count or act.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Young at Heart said:


> Actually it is a reason why women should keep their legs together, as too many men can't handle the idea of all those other men sharing the same vagina.


I can't believe I just read that. Welcome to the Paleolithic era.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Of course now she'll never be satisfied with you in bed. Stick a fork in it.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can't believe I just read that. Welcome to the Paleolithic era.


No era, nothing remotely ancient about it. Reality is wat it is regardless of [insert current year]. ****-sapiens has been biologically the same as we were when first classified as such and sentiment hard wired in biology is nothing but pure fact.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I had no idea so many guys still think sex is dirty and having it bespoils a person. The eternal contradiction. If it's so stanky, why keep having it?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> No era, nothing remotely ancient about it. Reality is wat it is regardless of [insert current year]. ****-sapiens has been biologically the same as we were when first classified as such and sentiment hard wired in biology is nothing but pure fact.


Some of us evolved.


----------



## JustTheWife

Young at Heart said:


> Actually it is a reason why women should keep their legs together, as too many men can't handle *the idea* of all those other men sharing the same vagina.


His offensive *ideas *are not his wife's problem. A woman should not discuss her sexual history and a good man never will ask a woman how many penises she's had in her vagina. That's an offensive question.

*Idea *is the key word here. So let's talk about facts and science. STD tests can validate the health of the vagina if that's a concern. Just like other organs are examined or tested for disease. An intact hymen is not a reliable way to determine a woman's virginity or lack thereof. And it's offensive and misogynous for a man to demand an intact hymen. Simply not acceptable. So other than the possibility of a change to the hymen, the vagina does not change if other men have been in it. So what are we left with? *An idea*? He just doesn't want a vagina that other men have been in? And he looks down on women who aren't virgins? So what? His prejudices are his problem, not hers.

Asking if other men have been in her vagina when it makes absolutely no tangible and physical difference is like going into a hotel and asking if the room you're being offered has ever had black people or Jewish people staying in it. Outside of the extremely offensive *idea *of it, the question is completely irrelevant. The room is the same. It makes no difference at all who's been in the room except for the sick *ideas *of deeply offensive people. Since the question of how many penises have been in a woman's vagina is flawed and offensive, she should just respond appropriately - refuse to accept the validity of the question and get angry.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> I had no idea so many guys still think sex is dirty and having it bespoils a person. The eternal contradiction. If it's so stanky, why keep having it?


Sex with someone special is indeed the most beautiful thing there is, sex with the village-bicycle is at best a bodily function such as releaving one self. With sentiments and morality being what it has become, the problem is that more and more bicycles have become village property and no man wants a bicycle another man can describe the squeaking of, let alone a gross of men.

Microchimerism and Telegony definitely increases the gross factor of a woman with a sordid past (it has 100% been proven in Mammalia and yes we are mammalian), perhaps that answers the bespoils aspect.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some of us evolved.


Absolutely not, there has been no such thing as evolution in ****-sapiens, just moral decay.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

JustTheWife said:


> His offensive *ideas *are not his wife's problem. A woman should not discuss her sexual history and a good man never will ask a woman how many penises she's had in her vagina. That's an offensive question.


Then I am not a good man in your opinion and in this your opinion does not matter to me. I Decide who I want a relationship with and I will not have one with a woman who was ever loose.

If the OP wanted a virgin, he should not have been cheated out of his desire to have had one by lies and deceit!


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> Absolutely not, there has been no such thing as evolution in ****-sapiens, just moral decay.


You need to travel.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> Then I am not a good man in your opinion and in this your opinion does not matter to me. I Decide who I want a relationship with and I will not have one with a woman who was ever loose.


You probably just wrote your own fate.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> You probably just wrote your own fate.


My wife shares my attitude and beliefs on this. My fate is that since I was born I have to die, that is my only fate as for the rest I have choice, happenstance and agency. If I were to divorce and end up alone because of my beliefs, it would not be by fate but by principle and this I will revel in because principle, a foreign concept to the warped mind, is something I cherish.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> You need to travel.


You need to study.


----------



## oldshirt

Dictum Veritas said:


> He also has the right to tell everybody who cares to listen exactly why he is divorcing her. The truth is not badgering or defaming and although unkind, her providing a lie as the basis for the marriage is the only mistreatment I can see here.


He has the right to tell whoever will listen why he divorced. 

But no one will actually care (other than their own morbid curiosity in someone else’s pain)

And if they suspect he is just trying to make her look bad, he will be the one looking like a jerk and a douche.


----------



## JustTheWife

Dictum Veritas said:


> Then I am not a good man in your opinion and in this your opinion does not matter to me. I Decide who I want a relationship with and I will not have one with a woman who was ever loose.
> 
> If the OP wanted a virgin, he should not have been cheated out of his desire to have had one by lies and deceit!


Of course you can decide who you want a relationship with but keep in mind that many women lie, downplay, and selectively forget about their sexual histories. And with good reason. We are very good at keeping our secrets. Due to man's preference for untouched (or "less touched") territory, we've evolved to be good at hiding it. Anyway, men want to believe their women are untouched so it's pretty easy. Good luck to all men who think they can tell who's "loose".


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> You need to study.





Dictum Veritas said:


> You need to study.


Whatever you've been studying seems to be holding you back in another century. So no thanks.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> My wife shares my attitude and beliefs on this. My fate is that since I was born I have to die, that is my only fate as for the rest I have choice, happenstance and agency. If I were to divorce and end up alone because of my beliefs, it would not be by fate but by principle and this I will revel in because principle, a foreign concept to the warped mind, is something I cherish.


Riiiight.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> I had no idea so many guys still think sex is dirty and having it bespoils a person. The eternal contradiction. If it's so stanky, why keep having it?


People have a right to their own criteria in a partner. 

This is no different than a woman being attracted to men that are tall and make a lot of money.

Who complains about women wanting tall, rich guys? - short, broke guys. 

Men and women both are attracted to what they are attracted to and their deal breakers are their deal breakers. 

Men and women who value virginity/ sexual restraint often don’t view sexuality as dirty or stanky but often see it as the opposite- they see it as something special and there for want a partner who also see it as special enough so as not to be doing it with every Tom, **** or Mary but to save it for a special person within a special relationship.


----------



## marcy*

SunCMars said:


> It matters, because it matters to her.
> 
> She tossed this one out like one does a hand grenade.
> Why?
> 
> Keep a close watch on your marriage, going forward.
> I suspect her heavier leg is already out the door.
> 
> 
> _King Brian-_


Ok let me share something personal. My first job was at a Bingo place. Totally different from what I have seen here. The bingo places in my country at that time at least were frequented only by men and were open all day till late. . It was a “man’s place.” Kind of environment where “good girls” will not go to work, even though most of the people I worked with, were very nice people. I found that job through my cousin who was an accountant there.
I was 18. Nothing happened there. I worked there only during summertime and then went to college. Never told my husband about it. Why? Because knowing him how he doesn’t trust anyone, how he annoyed me with his jealousy, not worth sharing everything with him.
He was my first and made me feel like I had many before him. I said to myself. Not worth the drama. Save yourself with nonsense drama. He can’t handle anything, That place meant nothing to me but I know my husband will annoy me about it. It’s stupid to keep that a secret, right, but I felt like, nahh, not worth sharing with him. If I was with someone else, different from my hubby, I would not mind shari
Same with your wife. She probably thinks is not worth the drama, since it probably means nothing to her, but it may bother you.


Dictum Veritas said:


> Sex with someone special is indeed the most beautiful thing there is, sex with the village-bicycle is at best a bodily function such as releaving one self. With sentiments and morality being what it has become, the problem is that more and more bicycles have become village property and no man wants a bicycle another man can describe the squeaking of, let alone a gross of men.
> 
> Microchimerism and Telegony definitely increases the gross factor of a woman with a sordid past (it has 100% been proven in Mammalia and yes we are mammalian), perhaps that answers the bespoils aspect.


What if the man you chose to be your first and the only one for you is not that special at all? My hubby was my first and the only one I have been with. I regret it now. If I had more experience with men, I would have never chosen him to be my husband.


----------



## JustTheWife

Dictum Veritas said:


> Sex with someone special is indeed the most beautiful thing there is, sex with the village-bicycle is at best a bodily function such as releaving one self. With sentiments and morality being what it has become, the problem is that more and more bicycles have become village property and no man wants a bicycle another man can describe the squeaking of, let alone a gross of men.
> 
> Microchimerism and Telegony definitely increases the gross factor of a woman with a sordid past (it has 100% been proven in Mammalia and yes we are mammalian), perhaps that answers the bespoils aspect.


These theories have association with racism, are offensive, and have no place on a board like TAM. Hopefully the mods will address.

women are not property like bicycles. And the worth of a woman is not determined by how many mean heard a bicycle squeaking as he rode it. Deeply offensive and misogynous views.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

marcy* said:


> Whatever you've been studying seems to be holding you back in another century. So no thanks.


When will people learn that [insert current year] type arguments only holds water with imbeciles and people with sordid life history they can not change and wish they didn't have to face consequences for?


----------



## Dictum Veritas

JustTheWife said:


> These theories have association with racism, are offensive, and have no place on a board like TAM. Hopefully the mods will address.


Now science is somehow offensive and has to be moderated? No the woman is never property, but the ability to create a bond of sanctity is.


----------



## BruceBanner

Two the Point said:


> When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.
> 
> (Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)
> 
> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.
> 
> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.
> 
> Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:
> 
> The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.
> 
> *Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*
> 
> Thank you.


That third man is likely somebody still close by in either her social circle or your social circle.



JustTheWife said:


> These theories have association with racism, are offensive, and have no place on a board like TAM. Hopefully the mods will address.
> 
> women are not property like bicycles. And the worth of a woman is not determined by how many mean heard a bicycle squeaking as he rode it. Deeply offensive and misogynous views.


I think he's entitled to his opinion.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> People have a right to their own criteria in a partner.
> 
> This is no different than a woman being attracted to men that are tall and make a lot of money.
> 
> Who complains about women wanting tall, rich guys? - short, broke guys.
> 
> Men and women both are attracted to what they are attracted to and their deal breakers are their deal breakers.
> 
> Men and women who value virginity/ sexual restraint often don’t view sexuality as dirty or stanky but often see it as the opposite- they see it as something special and there for want a partner who also see it as special enough so as not to be doing it with every Tom, **** or Mary but to save it for a special person within a special relationship.


Mostly I've seen it's either a religious or cultural belief or they're insecure sexually and don't want the woman to have anything to compare them to. This was often the case another forum I was on. More incels than religious virgins.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

marcy* said:


> What if the man you chose to be your first and the only one for you is not that special at all?


Which is typically the result.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> People have a right to their own criteria in a partner.
> 
> This is no different than a woman being attracted to men that are tall and make a lot of money.


Except no one is morally condemning those who aren't tall rich guys as morally bankrupt.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> Except no one is morally condemning tall rich guys.


No, but they are condemning poor short guys to become (what was that overused Saul Salinsky tactics inspired, derogatory term again? Oh yes) incels (involuntary celibate). I'd rather say the virgins are more in league with the tall rich guys and the over-experienced with the short poor men as far as relativistic worth in a relationship is concerned, thus your logic is inverted, therefore flawed.

Edit, oops, my bad, as you added as morally bankrupt after my comment or I missed it. Thus invalidating my argument. With that edit I do have concurrence.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> Except no one is morally condemning those who aren't tall rich guys as morally bankrupt.


I’m glad for this. One good thing from this thread


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> No, but they are condemning poor short guys to become (what was that overused Saul Salinsky tactics inspired, derogatory term again? Oh yes) incels (involuntary celibate). I'd rather say the virgins are more in league with the tall rich guys and the over-experienced with the short poor men as far as relativistic worth in a relationship is concerned, thus your logic is inverted, therefore flawed.
> 
> Edit, oops, my bad, as you added as morally bankrupt after my comment. Thus invalidating my argument. With that edit I do have concurrence.


Well, thank the Lord you have concurrence, because I was going to be up all night worried about that.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, thank the Lord you have concurrence, because I was going to be up all night worried about that.


Seems our mutual respect is at the same level.


----------



## maree

How did you react to the other 2 confessions? If it's not to protect the other person from you, then it's most likely someone you know.


----------



## Casual Observer

Dictum Veritas said:


> Seconded and most men not trying to be PC will agree. Certainly most men I know (if not all) feel this way.


No, not this, not at all. I can see why someone who generally agrees with my take about not keeping secrets about such things might believe this, but it's not at all a morality play about whether a woman should have a sex partner, or many, before settling down. You can choose to make it one, but that's a deflection. This is all about taking advantage of deceit, pretending to be something other than whom you are in order to gain advantage. It's a common business tactic, but in matters of the heart, the toll on the receiving party can be extreme, something not recovered from.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> Mostly I've seen it's either a religious or cultural belief or they're insecure sexually and don't want the woman to have anything to compare them to. This was often the case another forum I was on. More incels than religious virgins.


I tend to agree with you on this one but I think there are some other factors.

I think that men like the OP who consciously choose to remain virgins themselves are congruent with their beliefs and have validity in wanting their partners to share in those beliefs and walk the same path as themselves.

This differs from the playa’s at the club hooking up with chicks but who insist on Virgin/low-count women for relationship/marriage. This I believe is rooted in insecurity and power dynamics in that they don’t want a woman with enough wisdom and experience to realize how crappy of a person/partner he is.


----------



## Casual Observer

NextTimeAround said:


> I thought God was forgiving. Isn't it more important that one is celibate during the relationship? Isn't that an act of whatever it's called in Christianity. It just seems so much pressure on women who can't turn back time.





Dictum Veritas said:


> No one has the right to dictate to another what their priorities and deal breakers should be and using God as a reason to have someone soften their stance on morals is intellectually dishonest and an appeal to Authority logical fallacy that is also highly inappropriate.


OK, let's get real here. Forgiveness is not an excuse that allows you to do whatever you want because you'll be forgiven. There is an assumption of repentance when looking for forgiveness from God. As for forgiveness from those one has wronged, that's a different animal and not really related to any particular religion, regardless of whether it's called out for on its holy book. God may ask us to forgive others, but whether we do, or carry the offense with us to the grave, it's not going to disqualify a Christian from joining God in Heaven. 

Again, the issues in this thread are derailed, I believe, when we see religion as the lens for the situation described here.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> More incels than religious virgins.


I am sure much of the incels ire and contempt for nonvirgin women is deeply rooted in insecurity and their own incompetence.

Incels have a whole constellation of problems and dysfunctions and animosities.

But nothing the OP has said, indicates he was an incel or a practitioner of that ideology.

In fact, he had a woman apparently willing to go through considerable lengths to portray herself as someone compatible with hi in effort in deceive him into being with her. That is not what women go through to get with an incel. 

There’s nothing here to indicate his preference in virginity was based in insecurity or or to have some kind of power or influence over her.

In fact his complaints have not been centered around her sexual experience or that she is somehow sexually tainted, but rather his complaint is her dishonesty and deception and wondering what else she is hiding.

That’s a perfectly legitimate concern IMHO regardless of one’s views or values on virginity.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> Except no one is morally condemning those who aren't tall rich guys as morally bankrupt.


They would be condemned if they were portraying themselves as tall and rich. 

Again, the OP here is not condemning her sexuality. He has not called her a **** or ***** or that she is morally bankrupt on account of her sexuality. 

He’s upset with her dishonesty and fraud. He is upset with her lack of credibility now and the loss of trust.

No one is saying she is morally bankrupt due to her sexuality. 

It’s that she is a lier and someone that intentionally and methodically lied to him and deceived him with forethought on a matter that she knew was critical for him to have a relationship.


----------



## Beach123

Two the Point said:


> When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.
> 
> (Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)
> 
> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.
> 
> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.
> 
> Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:
> 
> The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.
> 
> *Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*
> 
> Thank you.


Since this is that important to you... why don’t you divorce her?
She will never be capable of making this right for you.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Livvie said:


> So you also believe then that men should keep it in their pants, because women don't want the idea of all of those other women sharing the same ****?


I did till 23 looking for the one. Weeded out a few unworthy girls...one tried to lie that she still was but found out otherwise. One turned out to just be immoral...thank goodness i broke up with her before anything happened and before she pulled a train at a party with 4-5 guys on HS ball team.


----------



## Livvie

Divinely Favored said:


> I did till 23 looking for the one. Weeded out a few unworthy girls...one tried to lie that she still was but found out otherwise. One turned out to just be immoral...thank goodness i broke up with her before anything happened and before she pulled a train at a party with 4-5 guys on HS ball team.


So, you are saying you DON'T believe that men should keep it in their pants but _women_ should? Why? 

Your reply really makes no logical/intelligent sense to the question I asked. 

And FYI I think it's unappealing when a guy's **** has been in a ton of women.

It's annoying that so many men have such a hypocrite attitude. If it's gross that a woman is with a lot of men it should be _equally_ as gross if a man is with a lot of women.


----------



## sokillme

Mr.Married said:


> Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.


Do you really have such little regard to women? I think most women just tell the truth and have honor, they also would sympathize with OP and would want to be married to someone who lied to them about whatever values are important to them either. Decent men and women don't want to lie to someone about their values to get them to marry them, or build their relationship on a lie. You insult all women when group them in with this woman who defrauded OP.


----------



## sokillme

Let me help some of those who think it's not big deal. Imagine you married your spouse and then you found out they were secretly a Trump loving republican but they kept that hidden from you? Would you be cool with that, should you just keep your mouth shut and not ask?

I am not even going to bother switching the politics around for this analogy. That's how sure I am the example works for everyone who thinks way.


----------



## oldshirt

sokillme said:


> Do you really have such little regard to women? I think most women just tell the truth and have honor, they also would sympathize with OP and would want to be married to someone who lied to them about whatever values are important to them either. Decent men and women don't want to lie to someone about their values to get them to marry them, or build their relationship on a lie. You insult all women when group them in with this woman who defrauded OP.


I did not interpret him as lumping all women with the OP’s wife at all. 

I think it was actually more of a statement about men and men’s reactions to women’s sexual history.


----------



## Mr.Married

oldshirt said:


> I did not interpret him as lumping all women with the OP’s wife at all.
> 
> I think it was actually more of a statement about men and men’s reactions to women’s sexual history.


Precisely and exactly.
Ever hear of a woman moaning about finding out about her mans past ? Sure it may happen but I really can’t remember it ..... however men come in hear crying over it often.


----------



## Livvie

Mr.Married said:


> Precisely and exactly.
> Ever hear of a woman moaning about finding out about her mans past ?


Yes, actually.


----------



## Mr.Married

Livvie said:


> Yes, actually.


Fair enough... but as ratio I think it is mostly on the male side


----------



## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> I did not interpret him as lumping all women with the OP’s wife at all.
> 
> I think it was actually more of a statement about men and men’s reactions to women’s sexual history.


Which this post has nothing to do with. It's pathetic that it's even brought up.

OP stated that talked about it he told her this was a value that was very important to her. He waited for his marriage because he valued that. She **** all over that by lying to him and taking away his chance to have that in his marriage. Then she lied to him over and over about it. 

Everything this comes up, some extremely insensitive people equate this to situations that are nothing like this post. This is not some guy who had a whole bunch of sex and then expected his wife not to. This is a guy who has a deeply held religious belief that informs his life and his decision making at the point where he sacrificed potential experiences that could have been fun. Then supposedly found someone who had done exactly the same thing and shared his values and experiences but instead just lied because he seemed like a good option.

Frankly it's just plain offensive that this situation is repeatedly turned into victim shaming. The people doing this seem incapable of or are willfully refusing to try to empathize with Ops point.


----------



## sokillme

Mr.Married said:


> Fair enough... but as ratio I think it is mostly on the male side





Mr.Married said:


> Fair enough... but as ratio I think it is mostly on the male side


That has nothing to do with this situation.


----------



## sokillme

Imagine if a sikh were to come on here and say he married a women who told him she shared his religion only to find out it was a lie. Then the posters he came to help from told him - well I think the whole sikh thing is stupid anyway, he is probably insecure. 

That is what is happening on this thread and it's wrong.


----------



## Casual Observer

Mr.Married said:


> Precisely and exactly.
> Ever hear of a woman moaning about finding out about her mans past ? Sure it may happen but I really can’t remember it ..... however men come in hear crying over it often.


Actually, frequently. It's usually part of learning about a husband's recent affair, and discovering an unrevealed past that runs counter to the woman's values.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

JustTheWife said:


> Anyway, men want to believe their women are untouched so it's pretty easy. Good luck to all men who think they can tell who's "loose".


The truth finds a way to surface, especially if you are as adamant as myself to know it.


----------



## sokillme

Dictum Veritas said:


> The truth finds a way to surface, especially if you are as adamant as myself to know it.


Yeah who would have thought basing one of the pillars of your marriage around a lie wasn't a good life strategy. I'm shocked!


----------



## Laurentium

sokillme said:


> That is what is happening on this thread and it's wrong.


I agree with you that it's wrong. But, there have been plenty of posts on each "side" of this. 
Just from the first page, these that I agree with:



maquiscat said:


> The fact that she has deceived you, and withheld this information, means that trust is out the window.





Andy1001 said:


> She really doesn’t care a toss about your views, she wanted a suitable husband and she picked you.
> How on earth can you trust her.





oldtruck said:


> normally better to not go into past relationships before you met.
> however she lied to you and has no right to not tell you who the
> 3rd OM is. though what she tells you may cause you to leave
> her.





happyhusband0005 said:


> Normally I'm in the camp of what happens before two people get together is none of the current partners business and it is inconsequential. However I see the fact that you were very clear with her about your beliefs and values and she chose to lie about her virginity as a big problem. ... Lying from day one is a very very bad omen for the future.





Casual Observer said:


> The details of her prior sexual life would not have been his business if she had told him so beforehand. But she chose to lie and deceive. It's essentially fraud, and it's up to him what that means to him.





jlg07 said:


> This isn't about him "not being able to handle it" -- this is about her FLAT OUT lying about what she knew was super important to him. She lied to get what she wanted.





Evinrude58 said:


> He wanted a virgin. She lied and said she was. She’s not.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Beach123 said:


> Since this is that important to you... why don’t you divorce her?
> She will never be capable of making this right for you.


This really. If you can't accept it then leave.

All the moralistic **** swinging that has been going on on this thread is just hot noise that doesn't actually address the issue here.


----------



## Diana7

sokillme said:


> Imagine if a sikh were to come on here and say he married a women who told him she shared his religion only to find out it was a lie. Then the posters he came to help from told him - well I think the whole sikh thing is stupid anyway, he is probably insecure.
> 
> That is what is happening on this thread and it's wrong.


Agreed, its NOTHING to do with insecurity.


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> People have a right to their own criteria in a partner.
> 
> This is no different than a woman being attracted to men that are tall and make a lot of money.
> 
> Who complains about women wanting tall, rich guys? - short, broke guys.
> 
> Men and women both are attracted to what they are attracted to and their deal breakers are their deal breakers.
> 
> Men and women who value virginity/ sexual restraint often don’t view sexuality as dirty or stanky but often see it as the opposite- they see it as something special and there for want a partner who also see it as special enough so as not to be doing it with every Tom, **** or Mary but to save it for a special person within a special relationship.


Agreed, its nothing to do with them thinking sex as dirty and skanky, in fact the total and complete opposite, its so important thay they want to save it for marriage. For many its the sealing of the marriage covenant and not to be done lightly.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

sokillme said:


> Imagine if a sikh were to come on here and say he married a women who told him she shared his religion only to find out it was a lie. Then the posters he came to help from told him - well I think the whole sikh thing is stupid anyway, he is probably insecure.
> 
> That is what is happening on this thread and it's wrong.


No it isn't. Being a sinner and being an apostate are not the same thing. Just because she had sex before marriage doesn't mean she does not share his religion. We are all sinners. We are all imperfect.

People on this forum are allowed to express an opinion and just because it doesn't offer unconditional support doesn't mean it is wrong.

The reality is that she will never be the virgin he wanted to marry. He can either work to deal with that or he can leave her. Pressuring her to reveal her entire sexual history is unlikely to help him cope with it. Has it not occured to you that the third man may be someone who coerced her or raped her?


----------



## marcy*

She lied to you, she wasn’t a virgin. The rest it shouldn’t matter to you. What you are going to do now? Leave her because she wasn’t a virgin like she said, or dig more on her past. You found three men already. Does it matter who these people are, if there is only three or more when you married her because you thought she was a virgin?


----------



## manfromlamancha

As I said before - the purpose of this thread (as far as I understand) is not to discuss the fact that she lied to him about being a virgin - this was covered in his last thread - this he knows! It is to understand why she will not reveal the identity of the 3rd guy having revealed who the other 2 were. Not only is that baffling but it will drive him crazy and could be quite serious. OP, you need to keep pressing and issuing ultimatums (that you are prepared to act on) until she tells you who he is (and you verify this). You say that she has been a good wife and mother for 30 years - I would say no she has not! And this behaviour now is proof of it. Stay focussed on what you are trying to achieve here instead of getting dragged into threadjacks about her lie and lack of virginity at the time of marriage etc. You have a more pressing problem on your hands right now! Who is this guy?


----------



## oldtruck

Mr.Married said:


> This thread is a good indicator that sexism isn’t as muted as I thought.


being lied to multiple times then being denied the identity of the 3rd OM
is not sexism.


----------



## marcy*

He hadsno right to ask for the identity of third person, period!!!! What if he finds out there is another one, and another one? Are you going to dig their identities also?! Why she doesn’t want to give it to you? Maybe because she saw that knowing these people’s names wasn’t doing any good to you. You are being obsessed over people who don’t matter to her anymore. Just stop! You are driving yourself crazy. Just divorce her if you can’t handle it, stop with this nonsense.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

oldtruck said:


> being lied to multiple times then being denied the identity of the 3rd OM
> is not sexism.


Why use such prejorative terms? None of the men she slept with whilst single and before her relationship with the OP can or should be described as an "other man" implying some kind of affair.


----------



## oldtruck

JustTheWife said:


> These theories have association with racism, are offensive, and have no place on a board like TAM. Hopefully the mods will address.
> 
> women are not property like bicycles. And the worth of a woman is not determined by how many mean heard a bicycle squeaking as he rode it. Deeply offensive and misogynous views.


racism?

how is it racist when all cultures, races, do not want high number women?

bicycle does not imply property ownership. the village bicycle that everyone
had a ride on her implies that everyone had sex with her.

and everyone does not mean everyone in town but implies that she rarely 
said no to having sex.

remember bending and stretching the meaning of words only leads to false
assumptions.


----------



## Diana7

marcy* said:


> He hadsno right to ask for the identity of third person, period!!!! What if he finds out there is another one, and another one? Are you going to dig their identities also?! Why she doesn’t want to give it to you? Maybe because she saw that knowing these people’s names wasn’t doing any good to you. You are being obsessed over people who don’t matter to her anymore. Just stop! You are driving yourself crazy. Just divorce her if you can’t handle it, stop with this nonsense.


Yes he does, she lied about something very important and if she didnt want him to know the identity, then why did she even tell him about a third man? There is a REASON she isnt telling him and its not going to be something good.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

manfromlamancha said:


> As I said before - the purpose of this thread (as far as I understand) is not to discuss the fact that she lied to him about being a virgin - this was covered in his last thread - this he knows! It is to understand why she will not reveal the identity of the 3rd guy having revealed who the other 2 were.


Because she doesn't want to and she doesn't have to as it is her history not his. Perhaps it is someone she doesn't want to talk about because the sex was coerced or nonconsensual?



> Not only is that baffling but it will drive him crazy and could be quite serious. OP, you need to keep pressing and issuing ultimatums (that you are prepared to act on) until she tells you who he is (and you verify this).


Absolutely terrible advice. She has not had an affair and she should not be treated as if she has.



> You say that she has been a good wife and mother for 30 years - I would say no she has not! And this behaviour now is proof of it. Stay focussed on what you are trying to achieve here instead of getting dragged into threadjacks about her lie and lack of virginity at the time of marriage etc. You have a more pressing problem on your hands right now! Who is this guy?


I would say that is incredibly judgemental and a pretty poor assessment of the situation. She has apparently been a loyal and faithful wife for 30 years but that should count for nothing because she slept with a few guys whilst single in college? I mean get real!


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Diana7 said:


> Yes he does, she lied about something very important and if she didnt want him to know the identity, then why did she even tell him about a third man? There is a REASON she isnt telling him and its not going to be something good.


She lied about being a virgin. That does not mean she has to share all the details of her sex life before her husband was on the scene. That is something he just has to deal with rather than keeping in pestering her 30 years later for more and more details that don't change the fact that she wasn't a virgin.


----------



## oldtruck

AGoodFlogging said:


> Why use such prejorative terms? None of the men she slept with whilst single and before her relationship with the OP can or should be described as an "other man" implying some kind of affair.


you assume that OM can only mean affair partner. OM can mean that but
just other man that she slept with.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

oldtruck said:


> racism?
> 
> how is it racist when all cultures, races, do not want high number women?
> 
> bicycle does not imply property ownership. the village bicycle that everyone
> had a ride on her implies that everyone had sex with her.
> 
> and everyone does not mean everyone in town but implies that she rarely
> said no to having sex.
> 
> remember bending and stretching the meaning of words only leads to false
> assumptions.


It isn't racist it is just crude and misogynistic. **** shaming is unfair and unhelpful.


----------



## oldtruck

AGoodFlogging said:


> She lied about being a virgin. That does not mean she has to share all the details of her sex life before her husband was on the scene. That is something he just has to deal with rather than keeping in pestering her 30 years later for more and more details that don't change the fact that she wasn't a virgin.


she would not have to be pestered if she had not lied and
just said I am not a virgin and I will not talk about my past.
take me or leave me.

being she lied and had him marry her based on a lie she
needs to come clean now.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

oldtruck said:


> you assume that OM can only mean affair partner. OM can mean that but
> just other man that she slept with.


On this forum and many others OM is used to mean a male affair partner. I am sure you know this.

Describing the wife as a village bike and describing her previous sexual partners as "OM" is part of a deliberate character assassination of a woman we know very little about. It just shows how much so many of you guys in the US are still hung up on sex.


----------



## marcy*

Diana7 said:


> Yes he does, she lied about something very important and if she didnt want him to know the identity, then why did she even tell him about a third man? There is a REASON she isnt telling him and its not going to be something good.


Maybe he drove her crazy with two first ones, and she decided to not share anymore info? 
You know I haven’t shared with my hubby where I worked, my first job. Nothing to hide about it but I know he is going to annoy me. He always does. Everything I say, about my family, my past, he is going to use it against me. And he was my first so I have nothing to hide. You think he believes me that he was my first?! Nope and I never gave him a reason to question my morality.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

oldtruck said:


> she would not have to be pestered if she had not lied and
> just said I am not a virgin and I will not talk about my past.
> take me or leave me.
> 
> being she lied and had him marry her based on a lie she
> needs to come clean now.


Except she doesn't. He has to deal with it, either by reconciling or leaving. Continual pressuring her into revealing her past is abusive.


----------



## oldtruck

AGoodFlogging said:


> It isn't racist it is just crude and misogynistic. **** shaming is unfair and unhelpful.


height is height shaming
weight - weight shaming
hair color- hair shaming
body type- body shaming
education- education shaming
income-income shaming
career prestige- career shaming

preferences are just that preferences


----------



## AGoodFlogging

oldtruck said:


> height is height shaming
> weight - weight shaming
> hair color- hair shaming
> body type- body shaming
> education- education shaming
> income-income shaming
> career prestige- career shaming
> 
> preferences are just that preferences


Describing a woman who has slept with 4 men as a "village bike" is not the same as preferring blondes. You are being willfully obtuse.


----------



## oldtruck

AGoodFlogging said:


> Except she doesn't. He has to deal with it, either by reconciling or leaving. Continual pressuring her into revealing her past is abusive.


you are putting the cart in front of the horse.
she had the opportunity to tell him i am not a virgin
when in fact she was not. she freely choose to lie.

upon telling him that she was not a virgin she had the
opportunity to tell him that she will not talk about her
past romantic relationships.

that ship has sailed, the train has left the station, when
it comes to her not making amends for lying to her husband.
the only way to make amends is for her to tell the truth
now.

then this husband can decide based on knowing the truth
to whether he can stay married or divorce her. the best
decisions are always made based on the full truth.

his need to knowing the truth can be a deal breaker for
her. so she should then divorce him. Though even divorcing
him she still needs to be decent and give him the full truth
so he can process this and heal.


----------



## oldtruck

AGoodFlogging said:


> Describing a woman who has slept with 4 men as a "village bike" is not the same as preferring blondes. You are being willfully obtuse.


I rather be polite and used the words village bicycle for it conveys
the meaning with more class than village: *****, vagina, ****, trollop, broad,
floozy, hussy, strumpet, trollop, vamp, etc.

also I never referred to the OP wife as a village bicycle.

just a liar that refuses to tell the truth now to make amends
for the lies she told.


----------



## Diana7

AGoodFlogging said:


> It isn't racist it is just crude and misogynistic. **** shaming is unfair and unhelpful.


No its not at all. Most here are clear that its her lies and deception that are the issue here not the fact that she wasnt a virgin when they met. Also the trickle truth that she has done over the years and now the refusal to say who the man was which implies something much more serious happened.


----------



## marcy*

oldtruck said:


> you are putting the cart in front of the horse.
> she had the opportunity to tell him i am not a virgin
> when in fact she was not. she freely choose to lie.
> 
> upon telling him that she was not a virgin she had the
> opportunity to tell him that she will not talk about her
> past romantic relationships.
> 
> that ship has sailed, the train has left the station, when
> it comes to her not making amends for lying to her husband.
> the only way to make amends is for her to tell the truth
> now.
> 
> then this husband can decide based on knowing the truth
> to whether he can stay married or divorce her. the best
> decisions are always made based on the full truth.
> 
> his need to knowing the truth can be a deal breaker for
> her. so she should then divorce him. Though even divorcing
> him she still needs to be decent and give him the full truth
> so he can process this and heal.


She lied. End of the story. Knowing the names with not help him, and their names shouldn’t matter to him. 
In Eastern Europe is very normal for girls to lie about their virginity. Boys want to be their first, even though they are not virgins themselves. That’s not fair. They value only virginity, not the person. You know why they want a virgin? Because their huge ego can’t handle the fact that someone else around the neighborhood had sex with her. That’s how I see this situation also. He can’t handle the fact that someone he may know has been with his wife. All this is not about her affairs, but about him.


----------



## Diana7

marcy* said:


> Maybe he drove her crazy with two first ones, and she decided to not share anymore info?
> You know I haven’t shared with my hubby where I worked, my first job. Nothing to hide about it but I know he is going to annoy me. He always does. Everything I say, about my family, my past, he is going to use it against me. And he was my first so I have nothing to hide. You think he believes me that he was my first?! Nope and I never gave him a reason to question my morality.


Then why tell him about the third man at all? To tell him there was a third man and then refuse to tell him who it was has made it far worse. Maybe if she had been honest to start with or at least told him about all the men she has sex with at the same time things wouldnt have got to this point. Lies and deception always come back to bite us and her trickle truthing have probably made him unable to trust her.


----------



## Diana7

marcy* said:


> She lied. End of the story. Knowing the names with not help him, and their names shouldn’t matter to him.
> In Eastern Europe is very normal for girls to lie about their virginity. Boys want to be their first, even though they are not virgins themselves. That’s not fair. They value only virginity, not the person. You know why they want a virgin? Because their huge ego can’t handle the fact that someone else around the neighborhood had sex with her. That’s how I see this situation also. He can’t handle the fact that someone he may know has been with his wife. All this is not about her affairs, but about him.


No thats not why they want a virgin. The OP wanted to find a lady who shared his beliefs and views that sex was for marriage. 
The fact that many women may lie doesnt make it ok, lying to a person you marry will usually have bad consequences and that is because it destroys the trust.


----------



## Diana7

AGoodFlogging said:


> Except she doesn't. He has to deal with it, either by reconciling or leaving. Continual pressuring her into revealing her past is abusive.


The word abusive is used far too freely these days and this is one of those times. Its not in anyway abusive to want your spouse to actually tell you the truth.


----------



## marcy*

Diana7 said:


> No thats not why they want a virgin. The OP wanted to find a lady who shared his beliefs and views that sex was for marriage.
> The fact that many women may lie doesnt make it ok, lying to a person you marry will usually have bad consequences and that is because it destroys the trust.


But he learned that they don’t share same beliefs so why dig more?!Why he needs their names for?!


----------



## oldtruck

marcy* said:


> She lied. End of the story. Knowing the names with not help him, and their names shouldn’t matter to him.
> In Eastern Europe is very normal for girls to lie about their virginity. Boys want to be their first, even though they are not virgins themselves. That’s not fair. They value only virginity, not the person. You know why they want a virgin? Because their huge ego can’t handle the fact that someone else around the neighborhood had sex with her. That’s how I see this situation also. He can’t handle the fact that someone he may know has been with his wife. All this is not about her affairs, but about him.


lying is wrong.

wife: does this dress make my ass look big
husband: no your but makes that dress look small

a woman's past is her business only. if she chooses to lie
and claim to be a virgin then she better take that lie to
her grave. no good will come from confessing.

problem is not that this woman lied. then she admitted
to lying that she was not a virgin, then made it worse by
trickle truthing the confession to her husband and now
refuses to identify the last piece which is the identity
of who the 3rd OM is.


----------



## ABHale

JustTheWife said:


> His offensive *ideas *are not his wife's problem. A woman should not discuss her sexual history and a good man never will ask a woman how many penises she's had in her vagina. That's an offensive question.
> 
> *Idea *is the key word here. So let's talk about facts and science. STD tests can validate the health of the vagina if that's a concern. Just like other organs are examined or tested for disease. An intact hymen is not a reliable way to determine a woman's virginity or lack thereof. And it's offensive and misogynous for a man to demand an intact hymen. Simply not acceptable. So other than the possibility of a change to the hymen, the vagina does not change if other men have been in it. So what are we left with? *An idea*? He just doesn't want a vagina that other men have been in? And he looks down on women who aren't virgins? So what? His prejudices are his problem, not hers.
> 
> Asking if other men have been in her vagina when it makes absolutely no tangible and physical difference is like going into a hotel and asking if the room you're being offered has ever had black people or Jewish people staying in it. Outside of the extremely offensive *idea *of it, the question is completely irrelevant. The room is the same. It makes no difference at all who's been in the room except for the sick *ideas *of deeply offensive people. Since the question of how many penises have been in a woman's vagina is flawed and offensive, she should just respond appropriately - refuse to accept the validity of the question and get angry.


Why is it offensive to you?

There are still a lot of people that don’t **** around before marriage. Why do you have to be so ugly about it?

She lied to him.

He was up front about being a virgin himself and was waiting til marriage.

He was upfront about wanting to marry a girl waiting as well.

She lied about being a virgin and took away his choice. Why is it such a great sin for a female not being allowed to make a choice when you are here arguing that a man shouldn’t have one. Talk about coming around 180.

Just because you absolutely hate those that wait. Maybe you should stay off this thread.

My wife is the one that wanted to wait in our relationship. We waited around 3 1/2 years til our wedding night. I didn’t lie or go out and cheat. I waited til she was ready, the night of our wedding. I also have no regrets about waiting. Who really wants to be with someone that ****s anything with a pulse.


----------



## ABHale

I really believe your wife isn’t wanting to tell you about the last one is because it happened after the two of you were in a committed relationship.

She cheated on you. Everything she has done is through your entire marriage is a lie.

Now you have to decide if what she has done is cause to end the marriage. If not forgive and rebuild what has been broken.

You have to have the truth of the last one she has admitted to. I doubt that is all she is hiding.


----------



## ABHale

DownByTheRiver said:


> I had no idea so many guys still think sex is dirty and having it bespoils a person. The eternal contradiction. If it's so stanky, why keep having it?


Apparently you have never read Song of Solomon. Sex isn’t dirty at all, biblical it is only meant to be between husband and wife. God also made woman from Adam’s rib so she stands beside him not under foot.

I really enjoy sex. I also don’t believe in sleeping around before hand. 

I also keep my mouth shut about others until they start bashing others for their beliefs.

So if you don’t have any morals great, go **** around. Don’t come on a thread and belittle and bash the guy because of his beliefs and morals. 

Fun how the divorce rate, the break ups of relationships and cheating go hand in hand with the sexual revolution.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Mr.Married said:


> Precisely and exactly.
> Ever hear of a woman moaning about finding out about her mans past ? Sure it may happen but I really can’t remember it ..... however men come in hear crying over it often.


Maybe about something specific such as he slept with someone she knows and doesn't or with her best friend.

For me, I'm more practical. Does he have children is more important than does he have his virginity.


----------



## JustTheWife

oldshirt said:


> People have a right to their own criteria in a partner.
> 
> This is no different than a woman being attracted to men that are tall and make a lot of money.
> 
> Who complains about women wanting tall, rich guys? - short, broke guys.
> 
> Men and women both are attracted to what they are attracted to and their deal breakers are their deal breakers.
> 
> Men and women who value virginity/ sexual restraint often don’t view sexuality as dirty or stanky but often see it as the opposite- they see it as something special and there for want a partner who also see it as special enough so as not to be doing it with every Tom, **** or Mary but to save it for a special person within a special relationship.


Having a preference in height or wealth of a partner IS different from having a preference for how many penises have been in her vagina. Things like height and wealth of a partner are *material *differences in the characteristic of the person.

Having sex does not change or devalue the vagina (btw, hymen is not a good indicator and it's offensive to western values to value a woman with an intact hymen more than a broken one). If you're concerned with her being "clean" suggest that you both get STD screenings as that *directly *addresses that concern. Obviously you can get an STD from just having sex just once with a BF you loved and you don't even need to have PIV sex to get some diseases so number of partners is not a good indicator of diseases - better to get tested. IOW, address the *material *concerns that you have, not worry about the idea of what she may have done before you met her. None of your business.

We all have things that we don't like *"the idea" *of but you can't control everything in life. 

If you're concerned with how she feels about sex today (i.e. how special it is to her or whatever), ask her how she feels about sex and morality. If that's your aim, it's much better to discuss the precise concern rather than to ask her how many penises have been in her vagina...something that does not reliably indicate how "special" sex is or not to her and something that is a pretty offensive question to be asking a woman.


----------



## ConanHub

Two the Point said:


> When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.
> 
> (Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)
> 
> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.
> 
> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.
> 
> Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:
> 
> The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.
> 
> *Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*
> 
> Thank you.


I think you should get away from this poisonous woman.

I haven't read any other posts of yours so if you don't have kids, I think you need to get out of Dodge.


----------



## ABHale

marcy* said:


> Ok let me share something personal. My first job was at a Bingo place. Totally different from what I have seen here. The bingo places in my country at that time at least were frequented only by men and were open all day till late. . It was a “man’s place.” Kind of environment where “good girls” will not go to work, even though most of the people I worked with, were very nice people. I found that job through my cousin who was an accountant there.
> I was 18. Nothing happened there. I worked there only during summertime and then went to college. Never told my husband about it. Why? Because knowing him how he doesn’t trust anyone, how he annoyed me with his jealousy, not worth sharing everything with him.
> He was my first and made me feel like I had many before him. I said to myself. Not worth the drama. Save yourself with nonsense drama. He can’t handle anything, That place meant nothing to me but I know my husband will annoy me about it. It’s stupid to keep that a secret, right, but I felt like, nahh, not worth sharing with him. If I was with someone else, different from my hubby, I would not mind shari
> Same with your wife. She probably thinks is not worth the drama, since it probably means nothing to her, but it may bother you.
> 
> What if the man you chose to be your first and the only one for you is not that special at all? My hubby was my first and the only one I have been with. I regret it now. If I had more experience with men, I would have never chosen him to be my husband.


I really do feel bad about your marriage. Your husband is an ass. You never deserved to be treated they way you have been.

Your situation is similarly to the OP’s. You were both deceived by the person you married.


----------



## ABHale

When did your wife throw in the fact the there was a third guy?

from your previous posts it sounds like you excepted the fact that she wasn’t a virgin like you were. Then the guy she lost her virginity to calls out of the blue and they have a 45 min conversation that she doesn’t think twice about. No big deal to her knowing it was for you.


----------



## JustTheWife

oldtruck said:


> racism?
> 
> how is it racist when all cultures, races, do not want high number women?
> 
> bicycle does not imply property ownership. the village bicycle that everyone
> had a ride on her implies that everyone had sex with her.
> 
> and everyone does not mean everyone in town but implies that she rarely
> said no to having sex.
> 
> remember bending and stretching the meaning of words only leads to false
> assumptions.


Please read more carefully. I was very clear that I was responding to a post "promoting" Microchimerism and Telegony. At least Telegony is associated with racism and discussing it as a legitimate theory has no place on a board that doesn't want to allow racism and misogyny.

I did NOT say that a preference for a virgin or against a large number of partners is racist.

Equating a woman who has had sex with "too many" (whatever number that is) men to a "village bicycle" that everyone rides is offensive and misogynous.


----------



## ConanHub

JustTheWife said:


> Equating a woman who has had sex with "too many" (whatever number that is) men to a "village bicycle" that everyone rides is offensive and misogynous.


Men and women both have derogatory terms and labels for all kinds of promiscuous behavior.

You don't get to control that because you don't like it.

OP certainly knows how to stir the pot.


----------



## ConanHub

ABHale said:


> When did your wife throw in the fact the there was a third guy?
> 
> from your previous posts it sounds like you excepted the fact that she wasn’t a virgin like you were. Then the guy she lost her virginity to calls out of the blue and they have a 45 min conversation that she doesn’t think twice about. No big deal to her knowing it was for you.


Oh.
... This is that guy......


----------



## oldshirt

JustTheWife said:


> Having a preference in height or wealth of a partner IS different from having a preference for how many penises have been in her vagina. Things like height and wealth of a partner are *material *differences in the characteristic of the person.
> 
> Having sex does not change or devalue the vagina (btw, hymen is not a good indicator and it's offensive to western values to value a woman with an intact hymen more than a broken one). If you're concerned with her being "clean" suggest that you both get STD screenings as that *directly *addresses that concern. Obviously you can get an STD from just having sex just once with a BF you loved and you don't even need to have PIV sex to get some diseases so number of partners is not a good indicator of diseases - better to get tested. IOW, address the *material *concerns that you have, not worry about the idea of what she may have done before you met her. None of your business.
> 
> We all have things that we don't like *"the idea" *of but you can't control everything in life.
> 
> If you're concerned with how she feels about sex today (i.e. how special it is to her or whatever), ask her how she feels about sex and morality. If that's your aim, it's much better to discuss the precise concern rather than to ask her how many penises have been in her vagina...something that does not reliably indicate how "special" sex is or not to her and something that is a pretty offensive question to be asking a woman.



Try telling a woman that she should value someone 5’6” as much as someone 6’+.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

JustTheWife said:


> Please read more carefully. I was very clear that I was responding to a post "promoting" Microchimerism and Telegony. At least Telegony is associated with racism and discussing it as a legitimate theory has no place on a board that doesn't want to allow racism and misogyny.


Science is science, scientists study phenomena and make findings. Some people may have used it to further agendas of their own just like you are doing right now, by classifying it as some sort of political tool, it is not, the raw science is just facts filtered from study using observation and verification through the scientific method.

Science cares not for your emotions and how the science is used is up to politicians, people and with money. How it is characterized is mostly up to the media and how it is perceived says a lot about the person learning about it.

As for myself, I merely am interested in facts with the caveat that I do not make a secret about not wanting a loose woman and this science merely contributed as validation to my preference later in life, long after I had already known about and expressed my preference.

If you want to tie science to agenda, then do so, it definitely doesn't mean anyone else sighting the science even remotely shares your sentiments about it.


----------



## BeetleJuice53

manfromlamancha said:


> As I said before - the purpose of this thread (as far as I understand) is not to discuss the fact that she lied to him about being a virgin - this was covered in his last thread - this he knows! It is to understand why she will not reveal the identity of the 3rd guy having revealed who the other 2 were. Not only is that baffling but it will drive him crazy and could be quite serious. OP, you need to keep pressing and issuing ultimatums (that you are prepared to act on) until she tells you who he is (and you verify this). You say that she has been a good wife and mother for 30 years - I would say no she has not! And this behaviour now is proof of it. Stay focussed on what you are trying to achieve here instead of getting dragged into threadjacks about her lie and lack of virginity at the time of marriage etc. You have a more pressing problem on your hands right now! Who is this guy?


This right here would drive me right up a wall. Why even mention this guy if she has no intention of revealing his identity.
After all, hiding important FACTS is nothing new for her.


----------



## sokillme

marcy* said:


> He hadsno right to ask for the identity of third person, period!!!! What if he finds out there is another one, and another one? Are you going to dig their identities also?! Why she doesn’t want to give it to you? Maybe because she saw that knowing these people’s names wasn’t doing any good to you. You are being obsessed over people who don’t matter to her anymore. Just stop! You are driving yourself crazy. Just divorce her if you can’t handle it, stop with this nonsense.


Why would he believe it anyway, this women is a liar.


----------



## sokillme

marcy* said:


> Maybe he drove her crazy with two first ones, and she decided to not share anymore info?
> You know I haven’t shared with my hubby where I worked, my first job. Nothing to hide about it but I know he is going to annoy me. He always does. Everything I say, about my family, my past, he is going to use it against me. And he was my first so I have nothing to hide. You think he believes me that he was my first?! Nope and I never gave him a reason to question my morality.


You are projecting, your situation into this, it has nothing to do with it. This has no relevance to this situation at all. You are blaming the victim here.


----------



## Mr.Married

Casual Observer said:


> Actually, frequently. It's usually part of learning about a husband's recent affair, and discovering an unrevealed past that runs counter to the woman's values.


With an affair I would agree but that isn’t what I’m getting at. The whole point about about not lying or cheating on someone is clear as a bell.


----------



## JustTheWife

Dictum Veritas said:


> Science is science, scientists study phenomena and make findings. Some people may have used it to further agendas of their own just like you are doing right now, by classifying it as some sort of political tool, it is not, the raw science is just facts filtered from study using observation and verification through the scientific method.
> 
> Science cares not for your emotions and how the science is used is up to politicians, people and with money. How it is characterized is mostly up to the media and how it is perceived says a lot about the person learning about it.
> 
> As for myself, I merely am interested in facts with the caveat that I do not make a secret about not wanting a loose woman and this science merely contributed as validation to my preference later in life, long after I had already known about and expressed my preference.
> 
> If you want to tie science to agenda, then do so, it definitely doesn't mean anyone else sighting the science even remotely shares your sentiments about it.


Well if you're concluding that these theories "validate" your view that "loose women" are to be avoided...well i'm speechless. There is no modern credible support for Telegony and using Microchimerism to somehow prove that women who have had sex with other men are forever negatively "infected" or soiled forever by those men's DNA is deeply offensive in my opinion and has no credible science behind it.

I did not bring these theories up --- they were brought up in the context of "loose women" so they were tied to a social view and to an agenda.


----------



## ccpowerslave

sokillme said:


> Why would he believe it anyway, this women is a liar.


This. There isn’t a lot of detail in the original post so it’s hard to say but the situation as presented seems like the headline from a Buzzfeed article with click on the link to find out what happens next where it’s deliberate baiting.

With that said, the OP asked for potential reason. Well here’s a potential one, what if there is no third partner and she’s lying to piss you off because of how you have reacted up until this point? You haven’t given us any info on what started this chain of events.


----------



## ConanHub

BeetleJuice53 said:


> This right here would drive me right up a wall. Why even mention this guy if she has no intention of revealing his identity.
> After all, hiding important FACTS is nothing new for her.


She is a deranged game player.


----------



## sokillme

JustTheWife said:


> Having a preference in height or wealth of a partner IS different from having a preference for how many penises have been in her vagina. Things like height and wealth of a partner are *material *differences in the characteristic of the person.
> 
> Having sex does not change or devalue the vagina (btw, hymen is not a good indicator and it's offensive to western values to value a woman with an intact hymen more than a broken one). If you're concerned with her being "clean" suggest that you both get STD screenings as that *directly *addresses that concern. Obviously you can get an STD from just having sex just once with a BF you loved and you don't even need to have PIV sex to get some diseases so number of partners is not a good indicator of diseases - better to get tested. IOW, address the *material *concerns that you have, not worry about the idea of what she may have done before you met her. None of your business.
> 
> We all have things that we don't like *"the idea" *of but you can't control everything in life.
> 
> If you're concerned with how she feels about sex today (i.e. how special it is to her or whatever), ask her how she feels about sex and morality. If that's your aim, it's much better to discuss the precise concern rather than to ask her how many penises have been in her vagina...something that does not reliably indicate how "special" sex is or not to her and something that is a pretty offensive question to be asking a woman.


So because you don't value it everyone else shouldn't either. This post is offensive, bigoted and intolerant.


----------



## JustTheWife

ConanHub said:


> Men and women both have derogatory terms and labels for all kinds of promiscuous behavior.
> 
> You don't get to control that because you don't like it.
> 
> OP certainly knows how to stir the pot.


Well a lot of the "derogatory terms and labels" that are so easily thrown around on this thread and in other threads are not about promiscuous behavior. They are about defining the person in derogatory terms. Do you really fail to see the distinction between commenting on an action or behavior vs a human being?

I'm not in charge of this forum so I'm merely stating my opinion that it creates a hostile and unwelcoming environment when you see women who have had sex with guys being related to "village bicycles" or being called "loose" and much worse. I have no problem with people's opinions that casual sex or whatever is wrong or disgusting, etc but I do think it's offensive to read people here saying that human beings who have had casual sex or whatever are like "village bicycles" or "loose".


----------



## sokillme

JustTheWife said:


> Well a lot of the "derogatory terms and labels" that are so easily thrown around on this thread and in other threads are not about promiscuous behavior. They are about defining the person in derogatory terms. Do you really fail to see the distinction between commenting on an action or behavior vs a human being?
> 
> I'm not in charge of this forum so I'm merely stating my opinion that it creates a hostile and unwelcoming environment when you see women who have had sex with guys being related to "village bicycles" or being called "loose" and much worse. I have no problem with people's opinions that casual sex or whatever is wrong or disgusting, etc but I do think it's offensive to read people here saying that human beings who have had casual sex or whatever are like "village bicycles" or "loose".


I actually agree with this too. It is also not the issue. The problem in their marriage is more the fact that his wife lied about something that was very important to him and continues to hide the truth.


----------



## ConanHub

JustTheWife said:


> Well a lot of the "derogatory terms and labels" that are so easily thrown around on this thread and in other threads are not about promiscuous behavior. They are about defining the person in derogatory terms. Do you really fail to see the distinction between commenting on an action or behavior vs a human being?
> 
> I'm not in charge of this forum so I'm merely stating my opinion that it creates a hostile and unwelcoming environment when you see women who have had sex with guys being related to "village bicycles" or being called "loose" and much worse. I have no problem with people's opinions that casual sex or whatever is wrong or disgusting, etc but I do think it's offensive to read people here saying that human beings who have had casual sex or whatever are like "village bicycles" or "loose".


You can find it offensive but you don't get to control everyone else and their perspective.

Those terms you don't like have been in play a long time and are sometimes even accurate.

They obviously don't apply to just anyone but people are free to personally judge as much as they want about sexual behavior because we all get to choose what we are, how we behave and how we view ourselves sexually.

We don't get to alter someone else's perspective.

As far as your distinction between a person's behavior and the person being different?

A murderer is a murderer regardless of any distinction because they committed the act of murder.

People can change however. A town bike might learn, grow and change. Calling them a town bike when they have become someone different isn't appropriate, helpful or accurate but it was that person's past.

Regardless, ****ty behavior is simply ****ty and it makes the person engaging in ****ty behavior a pretty ****ty person while they are engaging in the aforementioned ****ty behavior.😉


----------



## Dictum Veritas

JustTheWife said:


> I have no problem with people's opinions that casual sex or whatever is wrong or disgusting, etc but I do think it's offensive to read people here saying that human beings who have had casual sex or whatever are like "village bicycles" or "loose".


I have read 1984 and the concept of putting words "down the memory hole" is detestable to me. I am sorry you are offended by concise descriptions (be it meant as it is in a non-complimentary fashion), but I will not apologize using a single image rich term as opposed to writing a 5 paragraph description to convey an idea.

Furthermore, I am not ashamed of my views on [women who value the intimate aspect of sex so little that they would give it away to the first good looking guy they see over and over again just for tingles until everyone in town has seen her disrobed and felt the pleasure of her intimacy over and over again and then want to have a man support her in order to obtain what everyone has sampled for free] (instead of offensive term).

I am not asking others to share my views, I will not and never have entered into a meaningful relationship with one of them. I am entitled to my boundaries and standards however I want to justify them.

OP wanted a relationship and marriage with a virgin for his own reasons and with his own standards and however he wanted to justify them. He was cheated out of it by lies and deception. That is the bottom line.


----------



## Livvie

ConanHub said:


> Oh.
> ... This is that guy......


Right. This is the guy who has been married for OVER 30 YEARS and _over a decade ago_ found out his wife wasn't a virgin when they married, after all.

It's pretty obvious you aren't going to terminate the relationship over the non virginity issue, since you have known for over a decade. I bet it didn't even have an effect on your marriage, as far as the way you meet her needs in the relationship. Am I right?

No one here could possibly guess why your wife says don't ask about the third man.

Why don't you ask her and let her know it's important to the relationship?

No one but you two can solve this. You could ask her to go to counseling over this issue.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

JustTheWife said:


> Having a preference in height or wealth of a partner IS different from having a preference for how many penises have been in her vagina. Things like height and wealth of a partner are *material *differences in the characteristic of the person.
> 
> Having sex does not change or devalue the vagina (btw, hymen is not a good indicator and it's offensive to western values to value a woman with an intact hymen more than a broken one). If you're concerned with her being "clean" suggest that you both get STD screenings as that *directly *addresses that concern. Obviously you can get an STD from just having sex just once with a BF you loved and you don't even need to have PIV sex to get some diseases so number of partners is not a good indicator of diseases - better to get tested. IOW, address the *material *concerns that you have, not worry about the idea of what she may have done before you met her. None of your business.
> 
> We all have things that we don't like *"the idea" *of but you can't control everything in life.
> 
> If you're concerned with how she feels about sex today (i.e. how special it is to her or whatever), ask her how she feels about sex and morality. If that's your aim, it's much better to discuss the precise concern rather than to ask her how many penises have been in her vagina...something that does not reliably indicate how "special" sex is or not to her and something that is a pretty offensive question to be asking a woman.


It's all about moralizing. I mean what does purity mean except inexperience?

I grew up in a fundamentalist community, and I know how hypocritical so much of it is. If you've done everything but put it in the vagina, you're not pure or a virgin or innocent. You're just playing moralistic games. And that is mostly what goes on except in places who genitally mutilate girls to prevent them from losing their virginity.

Bottom line it's nobody's business whether someone is a virgin or not and whether the hymen is broken isn't an accurate gauge of that either, so it's just a futile pursuit. So ladies, if a man starts asking you about that, please do yourself a huge favor and run.


----------



## VladDracul

Dictum Veritas said:


> I have read 1984 and the concept of putting words "down the memory hole" is detestable to me. I am sorry you are offended by concise descriptions (be it meant as it is in a non-complimentary fashion), but I will not apologize using a single image rich term as opposed to writing a 5 paragraph description to convey an idea.


I forgive you. Next time limit such derogatory remarks to white males or your azz is in serious trouble..


----------



## ConanHub

Livvie said:


> Right. This is the guy who has been married for OVER 30 YEARS and _over a decade ago_ found out his wife wasn't a virgin when they married, after all.
> 
> It's pretty obvious you aren't going to terminate the relationship over the non virginity issue, since you have known for over a decade. I bet it didn't even have an effect on your marriage, as far as the way you meet her needs in the relationship. Am I right?
> 
> No one here could possibly guess why your wife says don't ask about the third man.
> 
> Why don't you ask her and let her know it's important to the relationship?
> 
> No one but you two can solve this. You could ask her to go to counseling over this issue.


I would be done with the game playing. I don't personally care that much about someone's past as long as it stays in the past but lies are deal 
breakers and playing stupid games like his wife is doing would get her stupid prizes with me.

I'm the guy wired to have zero issues with marrying the ex porn star or prostitute or ex town bike but if Mrs. C pooped off some stupid BS about some guy I didn't know about and she wasn't going to tell me, I would be done with her for the stupid game playing and we have nearly 30 years together and over 25 of them married.


----------



## Livvie

ConanHub said:


> I would be done with the game playing. I don't personally care that much about someone's past as long as it stays in the past but lies are deal
> breakers and playing stupid games like his wife is doing would get her stupid prizes with me.
> 
> I'm the guy wired to have zero issues with marrying the ex porn star or prostitute or ex town bike but if Mrs. C pooped off some stupid BS about some guy I didn't know about and she wasn't going to tell me, I would be done with her for the stupid game playing and we have nearly 30 years together and over 25 of them married.


I agree. The non virgin ship has sailed at this point, it's the game playing that is offensive. She must think nothing she says will affect how he treats her or feels about her. She thinks she's got him wrapped around her finger.


----------



## VladDracul

The next time somebody goes off recommending how important it is to tell the spouse so they can make a decision needs to think about this thread. This is a classic example where the dame should have kept her mouth shut. Now old Two will spend the rest of his life wringing his hand over not being her first. At this point I'm curious to know what happened to make him start asking questions years later.
One thing I agree with wholeheartedly. Unless you're willing to name co-conspirators, don't confess to the act. You, your spouse/ SO and everybody around you will be miserable.


----------



## marcy*

sokillme said:


> You are projecting, your situation into this, it has nothing to do with it. This has no relevance to this situation at all. You are blaming the victim here.


He was a victim 10 years ago when he learned that she lied, now he is victimizing himself because he is obssesed with finding out who was the third person that she had a relationship with before she met him.
You think he will stop digging after he learns his name?! I doubt it.


----------



## Livvie

VladDracul said:


> The next time somebody goes off recommending how important it is to tell the spouse so they can make a decision needs to think about this thread. This is a classic example where the dame should have kept her mouth shut. Now old Two will spend the rest of his life wringing his hand over not being her first. At this point I'm curious to know what happened to make him start asking questions years later.


It was a 45 minute long phone call she was on with an ex boyfriend, in front of OP, one of the ones she had sex with. 

OP probably should have just continued with his previous thread.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

OP, I was in your shoes, I was virgin, wife lied in pre-marital counseling to me & pastor.
I forgave her after it came out. You could read my threads if ya want.
Her throwing out the third guy mention is a narcissist tactic. She wants to control the relationship/narrative.
Start checking into both of your finances. 

During my divorce process, we both had to fill out financial disclosure forms, guess what my attorney found, there was an account she disclosed, but had listed a lower amount to. She lied. She had bills I wasn't aware of. She lied. She took money from one of our kids without asking during the divorce. When confronted, she saw nothing wrong with it. Kid was working & saving for college, it was all about her.

If she is a narcissist, she will be looking to "monkey branch" to some other guy now that you are calling her out on her actions.

Bottom line of this whole thread is, she has no issue about lying to get what she wants. She has no problem playing mind games.

I'm 55 years old, I've seen couples where one of the couple lies about (pick one)
1. being in debt, not able to handle money
2. being a alcoholic
3. being a hard drug user
4. criminal record
5. unable to have children
6. being a virgin
7. being abused as a child that has seriously affected their view of intimacy
8. being divorced
9. having children that child support is being paid on

Most of these issues have led to divorce, because it wasn't disclosed up front, and the party that lied wasn't willing to work on issues caused by lying.

See a attorney, find out what your rights are, how much a divorce will cost. There are nights where being divorced is lonely. But my cash flow is better, my bills are paid, and I no longer have to wonder who the liar is chatting with on FB messenger.


----------



## SunCMars

.


marcy* said:


> *She lied to you*, she wasn’t a virgin. *The rest it shouldn’t matter to you*. What you are going to do now? Leave her because she wasn’t a virgin like she said, or dig more on her past. You found three men already. Does it matter who these people are, if there is only three or more when you married her because you thought she was a virgin?


You buried here, deep, the lying.

He interfaced lengthwise with an imposter.
He marred the liar.

Lying makes her deeds, 'seem' seedy.
Yes, the OP thinks so.
....................................................................

.My personal opinion remains more nuanced.
I am not the _O's Pee_ here.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

VladDracul said:


> The next time somebody goes off recommending how important it is to tell the spouse so they can make a decision needs to think about this thread. This is a classic example where the dame should have kept her mouth shut. Now old Two will spend the rest of his life wringing his hand over not being her first. At this point I'm curious to know what happened to make him start asking questions years later.


I suppose it's possible she just got fed up enough with him to give him the truth he's been hounding her for for years.


----------



## oldshirt

Here’s a bit of inconvenient truth for both men and women.

Women have independent sexual agency and autonomy. As long as it is legal, consenting adults, they can screw who they want, as many as they want and however they want.

They are also entitled to their privacy in personal matter and are under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to disclose their prior activities with anyone and nobody is entitled to the knowledge of their prior bedroom activities behind closed doors.

They have the right to ride the carousel to their hearts content and do not have to disclose it to anyone. 

However men also have the right to choose who they enter into relationships and marriage with and they are entitled to set whatever standards and criteria they best is best for them and no one has the right to tell them that their standards and criteria are wrong or that they shouldn’t have the beliefs and values that they do. 

So while women have the right to ride the carousel as they see fit, they also can not come back and criticize men for scratching them off the list of potential mates. 

If men are determined to only commit to Virgin/low-count women, the risk they must accept is not many women are going to fall into that category as time goes on and their pool of potential candidates will be shrinking by the day. 

And while women have the right to ride the carousel, the risk they take is that they will be taking themselves out of the running for men that value traditional relationships and marriage. 

Men can’t demand virginity and then ***** that women are screwing men other than them.

And women can’t screw volumes of men and then ***** that men of moral integrity and traditional values won’t give them the time of day and won’t commit to them.

Everyone needs to pick their poison and accept the risks and ramifications of their choices.


----------



## marcy*

SunCMars said:


> .
> 
> You buried here, deep, the lying.
> 
> He interfaced lengthwise with an imposter.
> He marred the liar.
> 
> Lying makes her deeds, 'seem' seedy.
> Yes, the OP thinks so.
> ....................................................................
> 
> .My personal opinion remains more nuanced.
> I am not the O's Pee here.


If he can’t handle the lying, he should divorce her, and not waste 10 years of his life trying to find out who the third person was. She lied once, she may lie again.


----------



## SunCMars

marcy* said:


> But he learned that they don’t share same beliefs so why dig more?!Why he needs their names for?!


I would normally and wholeheartedly agree that he does not need names.
Let me rephrase that, HE needs names, she is not obligated to provide them.

Yet, the third man's outing was a deliberate punch in the guts.

She taunted him with it. 
She is punishing him by withholding the name.

For all we know, there was NOT a third man, she got tired of the questioning and sucker punched him with another phony revelation.

Just games, and gamesmanship.
Nothing new here, many couples do this _back-and-forth_ bickering all the time.


----------



## SunCMars

marcy* said:


> If he can’t handle the lying, he should divorce her, and not waste 10 years of his life trying to find out who the third person was. She lied once, she may lie again.


Works for me!!  Uh, for us.


----------



## Two the Point

Opening post said this:



Two the Point said:


> When my wife and I were dating, I made it clear to her that I would remain a virgin until marriage (due to religious beliefs), and that I had the same expectation (requirement) of the woman I would marry. She told me that she wholeheartedly agreed with my values, and assured me that she was indeed a virgin and would remain one until our wedding night, should we end up getting married.
> 
> (Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)
> 
> After we had been married for quite awhile, various things (I don't have time to go into detail about them) made me suspect that she had lied about being a virgin prior to our marriage. Very reluctantly, and after strongly denying that she had had sex before marriage, she finally admitted that she had sexual relations with one man. Months later, she very reluctantly told me of a second partner. I had personally known both men quite well, as I went to school with them from kindergarten through high school graduation. Her sexual relations with the two of them took place during their college years.
> 
> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you. Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."
> 
> This was much different than the first two, whereby she had told me their names, the years during college that their relationship took place, the length of their relationship, and even the names of the cities she lived in when those relationships occurred.
> 
> Here's where I'm interested in hearing your opinion:
> 
> The high level of secrecy surrounding the third man leaves me wondering why it is such a secret, especially in comparison to the amount of information she provided me about the first two men.
> 
> *Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*
> 
> Thank you.


In my opening post (see above), I said this:

(Please note: Whether you agree with my values or not is not the focus of this post. So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.* Please focus specifically on the issue below. Thank you.)

Despite my request that the thread not be hijacked by responses regarding my values, this thread has devolved into exactly that.

Please read the entire post, and focus solely on the question I had asked, which is this:

*Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*

Thank you to those who have stayed on-topic.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

And he got his answers as to why that might be, but people aren't just going to ignore the elephant in the room. The mods can always clean it up if they find it not germane to the conversation, but some discussions just naturally lead places, and this one did.


----------



## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> Here’s a bit of inconvenient truth for both men and women.
> 
> Women have independent sexual agency and autonomy. As long as it is legal, consenting adults, they can screw who they want, as many as they want and however they want.
> 
> They are also entitled to their privacy in personal matter and are under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to disclose their prior activities with anyone and nobody is entitled to the knowledge of their prior bedroom activities behind closed doors.
> 
> They have the right to ride the carousel to their hearts content and do not have to disclose it to anyone.
> 
> However men also have the right to choose who they enter into relationships and marriage with and they are entitled to set whatever standards and criteria they best is best for them and no one has the right to tell them that their standards and criteria are wrong or that they shouldn’t have the beliefs and values that they do.
> 
> So while women have the right to ride the carousel as they see fit, they also can not come back and criticize men for scratching them off the list of potential mates.
> 
> If men are determined to only commit to Virgin/low-count women, the risk they must accept is not many women are going to fall into that category as time goes on and their pool of potential candidates will be shrinking by the day.
> 
> And while women have the right to ride the carousel, the risk they take is that they will be taking themselves out of the running for men that value traditional relationships and marriage.
> 
> Men can’t demand virginity and then *** that women are screwing men other than them.
> 
> And women can’t screw volumes of men and then *** that men of moral integrity and traditional values won’t give them the time of day and won’t commit to them.
> 
> Everyone needs to pick their poison and accept the risks and ramifications of their choices.


Again completely and utterly irrelevant to this thread. This is not a man-women issue. It's about values and respecting them.


----------



## sokillme

Two the Point said:


> Thank you to those who have stayed on-topic.


Don't bother the people posting otherwise are willfully intolerant of folks who don't' believe like they do.


----------



## oldshirt

@Two the Point

The possible reasons for her not telling you his name -

- she doesn’t have to. You now already know she wasn’t a Virgin so who she screwed before you doesn’t matter and isn’t really your business.

- it may be a close friend or relative.

- it not have actually been before you. 

- it may be someone that could make life very uncomfortable if she disclosed her name ie a boss, married relative, local politician or someone of prominence.

- she’s just plain tired of talking about this stuff and there is no benefit to her in disclosing names.

But the main reason is probably that she is a dishonest, deceptive and manipulative person.


----------



## VladDracul

Two the Point said:


> So, *please don't hijack this thread* *by commenting on whether you agree or disagree with my values regarding virginity.*


I think you're confusing a lot of us with people who give a rats azz about your values regarding virginity. You came here asking for free advice. Youre on an open forum Dawg. Your attitude about whether your old lady banged other guys before you came along is gonna get into the comments. It ain't like Berger King my man. You don't get it your way. Take what you need and disregard the rest.


----------



## Openminded

She’s the only one who knows the truth. Obviously. We are just guessing.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

You know, they've been married 30 years, and the first two at least happened during college years (shocker) and sounds like after he knew he's still opted to remain married to her for the last 20-some years, but sounds like he's constantly picking at this scab. I mean, OP, are you in this marriage or are you out? Why are you still obsessing over this? We all agreed she lied, you know she lied. Some of us agree it's also her business who she slept with before you but are baffled why then she opted to marry a virgin. But either way, you've accepted this, it sounds like, for some decades. If you are still bringing this up to your wife, at this point, it is YOU who are disrupting the marriage. What we do when we are young with immature brains shouldn't be held against us forever. I guess if she was really wanting to play the field, she'd have bailed on you by now . Why do you think she hasn't?


----------



## oldshirt

sokillme said:


> Again completely and utterly irrelevant to this thread. This is not a man-women issue. It's about values and respecting them.


Yep it’s about values. He valued virginity and abstinence.

She valued riding the carousel and then lying and deceiving him about it. 

Each value has its own set of risks and benefits so here we are.


----------



## VladDracul

Well it is what it is. He's played the hand he was dealt for a number of years. His choices, since he discovered her misdemeanors, is to hold um or fold um. If it was me, I'd rather be yoked to a chick I discovered banged a couple or three guys before we met that she didn't fess up to than one who surreptitiously run up $100K in credit card debt after we tied the knot.


----------



## Livvie

I think the million dollar question is, why did she say something now about a third man??????

She obviously has no problem lying. And it's not like she had a come clean moment and told him everything.

It sounds like she just wants to mentally torture her husband, doesn't it?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

VladDracul said:


> Well it is what it is. He's played the hand he was dealt for a number of years. His choices, since he discovered her misdemeanors, is to hold um or fold um. If it was me, I'd rather be yoked to a chick I discovered banged a couple or three guys before we met that she didn't fess up to than one who surreptitiously run up $100K in credit card debt after we tied the knot.


A practical man. Kudos.
Speaking of that, one of my exes that I then worked with for 10 years in the same office and, after much rocky terrain, still remain hands-off friends with, his second wife, everyone but him could tell was off her rocker. She hated women and every time I saw her, she was literally leaning on one of his friend's shoulders crying her eyes out to get sympathy, just a hysterical histrionic mess. Then suddenly he came in with a black eye to work, and it was her. 

Then we are all at this event and she's sitting with a good looking man friend of mine instead of her husband. And that's when her husband, my friend/coworker, tells me he caught her cheating with my male friend, and she had used her husband's credit card to RENT a hot tub! How smarmy. So my male friend stole her and immediately she got pregnant. He told me officially now they were engaged (she wasn't divorced yet) he wasn't allowed to talk to me or any women, and I told him I couldn't believe he was marrying this psycho, and that's the last I saw of him. 

Decades later, her ex-husband told me she'd been convicted of credit card fraud, stolen credit cards from both her husband and their only child. Can't say I didn't warn him. What a mess. It's weird when everyone can see a person is nuts except their romantic interest. She got two guys close to me and just completely turned their worlds upside down. But you know why both of them thought she was wife material and not any of the other many women they dated? Because she had been to cooking school. Both of them. Lord. I mean, southern women generally cook anyway and don't need a license to do it, but I think they thought she sounded good on paper.


----------



## Livvie

DownByTheRiver said:


> A practical man. Kudos.
> Speaking of that, one of my exes that I then worked with for 10 years in the same office and, after much rocky terrain, still remain hands-off friends with, his second wife, everyone but him could tell was off her rocker. She hated women and every time I saw her, she was literally leaning on one of his friend's shoulders crying her eyes out to get sympathy, just a hysterical histrionic mess. Then suddenly he came in with a black eye to work, and it was her.
> 
> Then we are all at this event and she's sitting with a good looking man friend of mine instead of her husband. And that's when her husband, my friend/coworker, tells me he caught her cheating with my male friend, and she had used her husband's credit card to RENT a hot tub! How smarmy. So my male friend stole her and immediately she got pregnant. He told me officially now they were engaged (she wasn't divorced yet) he wasn't allowed to talk to me or any women, and I told him I couldn't believe he was marrying this psycho, and that's the last I saw of him.
> 
> Decades later, her ex-husband told me she'd been convicted of credit card fraud, stolen credit cards from both her husband and their only child. Can't say I didn't warn him. What a mess. It's weird when everyone can see a person is nuts except their romantic interest. She got two guys close to me and just completely turned their worlds upside down. But you know why both of them thought she was wife material and not any of the other many women they dated? Because she had been to cooking school. Both of them. Lord. I mean, southern women generally cook anyway and don't need a license to do it, but I think they thought she sounded good on paper.


Was she really attractive?

Many times, men refuse to see, or don't care what they see (they ignore it on a deep level) because the women is sooooo attractive and they just have to have her. I believe these men get what they deserve, in the end.


----------



## JustTheWife

oldshirt said:


> Here’s a bit of inconvenient truth for both men and women.
> 
> Women have independent sexual agency and autonomy. As long as it is legal, consenting adults, they can screw who they want, as many as they want and however they want.
> 
> They are also entitled to their privacy in personal matter and are under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to disclose their prior activities with anyone and nobody is entitled to the knowledge of their prior bedroom activities behind closed doors.
> 
> They have the right to ride the carousel to their hearts content and do not have to disclose it to anyone.
> 
> However men also have the right to choose who they enter into relationships and marriage with and they are entitled to set whatever standards and criteria they best is best for them and no one has the right to tell them that their standards and criteria are wrong or that they shouldn’t have the beliefs and values that they do.
> 
> So while women have the right to ride the carousel as they see fit, they also can not come back and criticize men for scratching them off the list of potential mates.
> 
> If men are determined to only commit to Virgin/low-count women, the risk they must accept is not many women are going to fall into that category as time goes on and their pool of potential candidates will be shrinking by the day.
> 
> And while women have the right to ride the carousel, the risk they take is that they will be taking themselves out of the running for men that value traditional relationships and marriage.
> 
> Men can’t demand virginity and then *** that women are screwing men other than them.
> 
> And women can’t screw volumes of men and then *** that men of moral integrity and traditional values won’t give them the time of day and won’t commit to them.
> 
> Everyone needs to pick their poison and accept the risks and ramifications of their choices.


We women CAN actually have it both ways. Out of necessity and practicality, women have been lying, downplaying, and "selectively forgetting" about our sexual history for about as long as sex existed. And it's never been easier to rewrite history and give our men what they want.

First it was the hymen that men used to determine if a woman was "worthy". Now everyone knows that this is a completely useless indicator even for virginity, never mind approximating her number of partners beyond virginity.

So how do you tell if she was the "village bicycle" (to use the crude words of another poster) vs some amount of partners you are OK with. The answer is simply that you can't. We've had the machos here trying to say that they can "sniff it out" or whatever nonsense. The ones that can tell if you are "too skilled". More nonsense. You simply can't tell if a woman has had 30 partners or 1 (or even zero) by their level of skill.

Reputation used to be used to "mark" the bicycles as hymen obsession phased out. Guys talked and guys knew the girls that you use for fun vs. the ones you seriously date and marry. Most girls didn't go to college and married much younger. Reputations were hard to shake. It was a "village" so it was pretty easy to know where the "village bicycles" were.

Now, of course, many/most women go away to college and grad school and grow their careers before marriage. Move around. Sex with 20 or 30 guys might sound shocking but over say, 7 to 9 years of sexual activity, it's only about 2 to 4 partners per year. Is that a "village bicycle"? Should you come right out and tell the man that loves you that you've had 30+ other penises in you? No way. Use some common sense! I'm sure he doesn't want to hear that! And even at that rate, you're not going to get a reputation at college...never mind one that sticks with you wherever you go. 

Even if you were someone who had far more partners in college...enough to make a reputation for yourself there, you can just hit the reset button when it's time to meet your forever guy.

As you say, there are far fewer women staying virgins and even relatively modest and totally normal dating patterns over several years can really rack up the numbers to frightening levels. As another poster described, it's the idea of a "loose woman" that a man doesn't like or want. The reality doesn't matter. Give your man what he wants.

And for men, get to know your future partner. Talk to her about her views on sex, religion, morality and everything else. Don't worry about her numbers from the past, just worry about her as a person today.


----------



## oldshirt

JustTheWife said:


> And for men, get to know your future partner. Talk to her about her views on sex, religion, morality and everything else. Don't worry about her numbers from the past, just worry about her as a person today.


This very thread is evidence that just “talking” means nothing as the OP’s wife said everything he wanted to hear. 

Anyone can say anything.


----------



## TAMAT

*Can you think of any reasons why she might be keeping it such a secret?*

This is a list I’ve mentally compiled from reading on here and life experience, not complete.

Given the large number of reasons you must get the truth or you will wonder and distrust for the rest of your life.

He is someone she has maintained a professional relationship vital to her work or hobbies
He is someone she still is in contact with facebook, in person, etc but you’ve been deceived to believe was just friend
He is someone you know but unlike the other guys see all the time
He is not a man but another woman
He is a drug addict
He is a criminal
He got her involved in his crimes
He is a married
He is younger or older
He is ugly or handsome
He had a particular physical feature which turned her on
He is more athletic than you are
He had a much larger penis than you do
He comes from an objectionable ethnic group or religion
He is wealthy or poor
He is disabled
He was much better than you at sex
He had a much better emotional connection to him than you
She remains in love with him
She did sexual acts with him she never did with you or refused to do with you
She had a threesome with him, perhaps even his wife
She thinks of him often, possibly during sex
She had his child which you believe to be yours
She orgasmed more quickly , often and intensely than with you
She views you as a plan B person
She aborted his child or put it up for adoption
She does not want her parents to know about him
She preferred him to you, but for various defects you were a more practical choice.


----------



## oldshirt

JustTheWife said:


> Now, of course, many/most women go away to college and grad school and grow their careers before marriage. Move around. Sex with 20 or 30 guys might sound shocking but over say, 7 to 9 years of sexual activity, it's only about 2 to 4 partners per year. Is that a "village bicycle"? Should you come right out and tell the man that loves you that you've had 30+ other penises in you?
> 
> As you say, there are far fewer women staying virgins and even relatively modest and totally normal dating patterns over several years can really rack up the numbers to frightening levels.


This is why I say that one has to assume that a single adult (both men and women) are sexually active. 

The days of teens and young adults being sequestered from each other and being chaperoned and supervised are over. Families, churches and communities no longer police young adult’s sexualities.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

I disagree with the JustTheWife's diatribe in it's totality. The past being an indicator of the future.

Just use a search engine to search for:

*Counterintuitive Trends in the Link Between Premarital Sex and Marital Stability*

That will give all pause to consider.


----------



## oldshirt

Dictum Veritas said:


> I disagree with the JustTheWife's diatribe in it's totality. The past being an indicator of the future.
> 
> Just use a search engine to search for:
> 
> *Counterintuitive Trends in the Link Between Premarital Sex and Marital Stability*
> 
> That will give all pause to consider.


Theologians and sociologists and ethicists can argue whether people who have multiple partners before marriage will be stable in a monogamous marriage or not.

I believe people can and do make conscious choices on what they do with their genitalia. If they want remain faithful and monogamous in a traditional marriage, they can.

However we must counterbalance that with the fact that people have many more options today than in days of yore. 

People can choose to be in a traditional monogamous marriage .... until they choose not to be.


----------



## cp3o

Dictum Veritas said:


> Absolutely not, there has been no such thing as evolution in ****-sapiens, just moral decay.


I'm intrigued by this statement. 

It seems that you are suggesting the the earliest **** sapiens. including those that walked out of Africa some 80,000 years ago, were more moral than we. 

Assuming that I'm reading this right - on what evidence do you make this claim? How do you know what moral codes early humans had, or how well they observed them?


----------



## SunCMars

DownByTheRiver said:


> She got two men because she had been to cooking school. Both of them. Lord. I mean, southern women generally cook anyway and don't need a license to do it, but I think they thought she sounded good on paper.


My grandmother once gave good advice to my sister who was having problems with her (then) cranky husband.

Thinking she was out of earshot, she told her, "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach and his balls".

Have a snack and a drink ready when he comes home. 
When he gets comfortable open your blouse.


----------



## SunCMars

Often times the past has a stronger grip on you than your present reality.


----------



## Bluesclues

Livvie said:


> I think the million dollar question is, why did she say something now about a third man??????
> 
> She obviously has no problem lying. And it's not like she had a come clean moment and told him everything.
> 
> It sounds like she just wants to mentally torture her husband, doesn't it?


She did NOT just tell him now about the third man. She told him there was a third man the same year she told him about the other two - that was almost 20 years ago!


----------



## Livvie

Omg you are right!!

She told him about the third man decades ago!!

My response to OP is now... wtf.


----------



## SunCMars

This is your self-esteem acting, not your pride.

One's pride is given to you by others, through praise, your self-esteem is of your own creation and your own actions.

Your self-esteem needs a new direction.

You are living in a long-dead ghost story.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

cp3o said:


> It seems that you are suggesting the the earliest **** sapiens. including those that walked out of Africa some 80,000 years ago, were more moral than we.


It's not hard to figure out that I meant that people wanting to justify amorality often use the misnomer of being "evolved" or enlightened.


----------



## jlg07

oldshirt said:


> Yep it’s about values. He valued virginity and abstinence.
> 
> She valued riding the carousel and then lying and deceiving him about it.
> 
> Each value has its own set of risks and benefits so here we are.


In all fairness, 3 guys isn't "riding the carousel". In any event ALL of this is besides the point.

She lied so that he would marry her.

She fessed up to TWO people and gave all the details.
She fessed up about a THIRD and REFUSES to give ANY details.
So, OP, FIRST: she lied about being a virgin -- what is YOUR take on this, and is it a deal breaker for you.
SECOND: WHY she refuses to tell you about the third: WHY does she refuse? What are her reasons? Have you told her that this additional obfuscation of the details of the third is an issue for you and is a deal breaker? WHY did she tell you about this THIRD without any details.


----------



## JustTheWife

oldshirt said:


> This is why I say that one has to assume that a single adult (both men and women) are sexually active.
> 
> The days of teens and young adults being sequestered from each other and being chaperoned and supervised are over. Families, churches and communities no longer police young adult’s sexualities.


Agree. So it must be easier than in the days where virginity was the benchmark.  For the most part, a few boyfriends, some moderate dating, and maybe one or two ONS "mistakes" is the new virginity. That's when things get really blurred. Was it 30+ men?, 20?, 15?, or maybe just a very modest --- "not that many...I guess 5 or 6". Does it really matter? "If a tree falls in a forest...". It's all about perception and observation.

I doubt that most guys truly know how many penises have been in their wives. Many have not had a straight answer and probably have not asked. For others, she's lied/downplayed it. And where he has an accurate understanding of the number, other aspects of her encounters are likely downplayed.

I think many men would be floored if they ever had to face their wife's history head on. Staggering numbers of men? Stunning size? Shocking activities? Infections? Abortion(s)?

I think most married men have a real reason to be asking the question that's the title of this thread, "what kind of secret is my wife hiding from me?"


----------



## ccpowerslave

The only thing that ever mildly bothered me is I knew my wife did something with an ex I wanted to do with her. Eventually after years of wearing her down it happened and then I felt like a dumb ass.

I hope the OP manages to find peace but it sounds unlikely given he’s still making similar posts months later.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I think a lot of men are so unduly "following their penises" so to speak and at times letting them overrule common sense that they assume most women are the same way, but they're not. Women can very easily switch it on and off and be faithful if that is what they want. I think it's an unfounded fear. I think men have far more trouble being faithful and project that onto women. 

Speaking for myself, I used to enjoy casual sex, but falling in love kind of ruined that for me, at least while that was working out. Not only did I have no trouble being faithful, but even when things weren't working out, I had trouble getting involved because my feelings, not my vagina, dictated otherwise. We women mostly have pretty good control over our lady parts.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Dictum Veritas said:


> I disagree with the JustTheWife's diatribe in it's totality. The past being an indicator of the future.
> 
> Just use a search engine to search for:
> 
> *Counterintuitive Trends in the Link Between Premarital Sex and Marital Stability*
> 
> That will give all pause to consider.


I don't buy this nonsense at all, and it's because I'm 68 and have lived long enough to watch peers who were coming of age in the 70s, who all had lots of partners, eventually settle down and have a long successful marriages.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK so ignoring all the threadjack stuff about virginity before marriage etc, several reasons have been put forward as to why she might not be giving you the details about this third man and the ones that stand out is that he is still in your lives, it may have happened after you two were together, he is someone that is high profile or a relative (maybe even your relative) - basically if she told you then it would lead to another even more problematic discussion/explanation and possibly to your break up not to mention the extreme shame she might have to deal with if it got out.

The question for you is what you are going to do about it - you have to give her an ultimatum to first give you his name and details and then pass a poly to verify it (in addition to you verifying it through other means like contacting the guy) OR else you file for divorce (and be prepared to go through with it). Are you ready to do this as it seems to be the only way to get to the truth and get some peace of mind on this ?


----------



## cp3o

Dictum Veritas said:


> It's not hard to figure out that I meant that people wanting to justify amorality often use the misnomer of being "evolved" or enlightened.


Ah......

I have this silly expectation that people write what they mean. 

May explain why I failed to figure out that you meant something you didn't write.

Perhaps you're more evolved or enlightened than I  - either way - probably my bad.


----------



## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> This very thread is evidence that just “talking” means nothing as the OP’s wife said everything he wanted to hear.
> 
> Anyone can say anything.


Yeah, the moral of the story don't marry a liar, or someone so intolerant as to lie to you because it's not something they care about.


----------



## LisaDiane

JustTheWife said:


> Now, of course, many/most women go away to college and grad school and grow their careers before marriage. Move around. Sex with 20 or 30 guys might sound shocking but over say, 7 to 9 years of sexual activity, it's only about 2 to 4 partners per year. Is that a "village bicycle"? *Should you come right out and tell the man that loves you that you've had 30+ other penises in you? No way. Use some common sense! I'm sure he doesn't want to hear that! And even at that rate, you're not going to get a reputation at college...never mind one that sticks with you wherever you go. *
> 
> Even if you were someone who had far more partners in college...enough to make a reputation for yourself there, you can just hit the reset button when it's time to meet your forever guy.
> 
> As you say, there are far fewer women staying virgins and even relatively modest and totally normal dating patterns over several years can really rack up the numbers to frightening levels. As another poster described, it's the idea of a "loose woman" that a man doesn't like or want. The reality doesn't matter. Give your man what he wants.
> 
> And for men, get to know your future partner. Talk to her about her views on sex, religion, morality and everything else. Don't worry about her numbers from the past, just worry about her as a person today.


I don't agree that this is how women are viewed as much nowadays...I think the idea of women who are inexperienced and have a very low count can be UNAPPEALING to men. I've NEVER heard men brag about having a woman who had NO idea what to do when he got together with her. These days, men expect a woman to know how to please them sexually with all kinds of things that she would be better at after learning them from many partners...so being a low count woman can be really intimidating and a disadvantage on the sexual market! Very few men today value lack of experience in a sexual partner.

I think men are more excited and pleased with a woman who has had 20 partners who is great in bed than a woman who has less than 5 and will be a disappointment to be with!


----------



## JustTheWife

Dictum Veritas said:


> I disagree with the JustTheWife's diatribe in it's totality. The past being an indicator of the future.
> 
> Just use a search engine to search for:
> 
> *Counterintuitive Trends in the Link Between Premarital Sex and Marital Stability*
> 
> That will give all pause to consider.


There are a lot of factors that will influence the success or failure of a marriage. The research that you cite is more nuanced than you seem to appreciate, including that women with a very few number of sex partners have higher divorce rates than women with more partners.

Anyway, it's nearly impossible for a man to accurately know how many partners his wife or future wife has had or the full picture of her history - ONSs vs within a relationship, etc. *Because we lie/downplay.* Plenty of studies to back this up. We do it out of necessity because "too many partners" has long been perceived very negatively by potential partners.

I would even say that making ourselves appear more innocent is instinctual. It's part of what makes us women. It's a strong part of who we are. The makeup that makes us appear younger....bright eyes....pure skin....all create a perception that we are pure and innocent. The care in how much we disclose. It's an age old instinct. Just for you...our men. We know what you want and instinctively it's what we are programmed to deliver.

So to any man who aims to evaluate his potential partner's number of partners to some study that aims to predict divorce rates based on this...i have two words..."good luck". Unless you can apply this in the real world, it's useless. TAM is not an academic journal. For every "carousel riding" woman who turns out to be a bad wife, you have the virgin brides who can't stop thinking about what they missed out on. The sad reality is that it's a minefield and all your studies, pseudo-science, and incel rhetoric will not help you navigate it.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Livvie said:


> So, you are saying you DON'T believe that men should keep it in their pants but _women_ should? Why?
> 
> Your reply really makes no logical/intelligent sense to the question I asked.
> 
> And FYI I think it's unappealing when a guy's **** has been in a ton of women.
> 
> It's annoying that so many men have such a hypocrite attitude. If it's gross that a woman is with a lot of men it should be _equally_ as gross if a man is with a lot of women.


Where do you get that i dont believe that? I said nothing of the sort. I was one of tge guys that sex meant more than just sex. I remained celibate to the age of 23 while looking for the good girl to marry. I was looking in the wrong places so i did not find her. I had many opportunities and as a woman you do not know the **** a guy goes theough in HS and College being ridiculed as "still a virgin" but i wanted that with a wife.

If i had sex and then met a girl with those requirements i damn sure would have told her the truth and not been a deceptive liar to get what i wanted. I would have made the choice to have sex and i have the integrity to tell the truth and loose the opportunity to marry a girl that was a virgin if that was her conditions. 

I would not have taken that choice from her. What she did is liken to a Catholic girl marrying a man and tge man not divulging he was previously married and divorced without just cause for divorce.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Livvie said:


> So, you are saying you DON'T believe that men should keep it in their pants but _women_ should? Why?
> 
> Your reply really makes no logical/intelligent sense to the question I asked.
> 
> And FYI I think it's unappealing when a guy's **** has been in a ton of women.
> 
> It's annoying that so many men have such a hypocrite attitude. If it's gross that a woman is with a lot of men it should be _equally_ as gross if a man is with a lot of women.


Where do you get that i dont believe that? I said nothing of the sort. I was one of tge guys that sex meant more than just sex. I remained celibate to the age of 23 while looking for the good girl to marry. I was looking in the wrong places so i did not find her. I had many opportunities and as a woman you do not know the **** a guy goes theough in HS and College being ridiculed as "still a virgin" but i wanted that with a wife.

If i had sex and then met a girl with those requirements i damn sure would have told her the truth and not been a deceptive liar to get what i wanted. I would have made the choice to have sex and i have the integrity to tell the truth and loose the opportunity to marry a girl that was a virgin if that was her conditions. 

I would not have taken that choice from her. What she did is liken to a Catholic girl marrying a man and tge man not divulging he was previously married and divorced without just cause for divorce.


marcy* said:


> But he learned that they don’t share same beliefs so why dig more?!Why he needs their names for?!


If you married a man and he deceived you into marriage from the start and now he has told you he screwed some girl but refuses to tell you who. Most likely because tgey are in your inner circle...maybe your sister? But ....you really do not need to know why there is a sexual tention between them at family gatherings do you? After all it would be none of your business would it?


----------



## oldshirt

jlg07 said:


> In all fairness, 3 guys isn't "riding the carousel". In any event ALL of this is besides the point.
> 
> She lied so that he would marry her.
> 
> She fessed up to TWO people and gave all the details.
> She fessed up about a THIRD and REFUSES to give ANY details.
> So, OP, FIRST: she lied about being a virgin -- what is YOUR take on this, and is it a deal breaker for you.
> SECOND: WHY she refuses to tell you about the third: WHY does she refuse? What are her reasons? Have you told her that this additional obfuscation of the details of the third is an issue for you and is a deal breaker? WHY did she tell you about this THIRD without any details.


So how many is too many?? How many is not enough? 

To the OP, one was too many.


----------



## manfromlamancha

And the threadjack continues ....


----------



## NextTimeAround

Maybe your wife is withholding the info because she likes the merry go round it put you on. My sister is like that. When I was in college, she learned that I was going out with a married man. she was in med school where he was also studying. Being 19, it never crossed my mind that anybody could be married in the microcosm called "university." she didn't tell me who told her. At that time, i appreciated the fact that if I had blabbed, that he may have retaliated on the squealer. But c'mon, 4 decades later and she still won't tell me. I decided I will never ask her again because I don't want her to feel that she has something that I want.

I bet you, if you go quiet she might get worried. One of the early warning signals that a relationship is about to collapse includes not being bothered over things that you were once bothered about. ie "Everything's fine, hun. What's the problem?"


----------



## Divinely Favored

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think a lot of men are so unduly "following their penises" so to speak and at times letting them overrule common sense that they assume most women are the same way, but they're not. Women can very easily switch it on and off and be faithful if that is what they want. I think it's an unfounded fear. I think men have far more trouble being faithful and project that onto women.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I used to enjoy casual sex, but falling in love kind of ruined that for me, at least while that was working out. Not only did I have no trouble being faithful, but even when things weren't working out, I had trouble getting involved because my feelings, not my vagina, dictated otherwise. We women mostly have pretty good control over our lady parts.


If only. I know more women who have issues being faithful than the men, so being a good guy i have an inherent distrust of women.


----------



## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> I don't agree that this is how women are viewed as much nowadays...I think the idea of women who are inexperienced and have a very low count can be UNAPPEALING to men. I've NEVER heard men brag about having a woman who had NO idea what to do when he got together with her. These days, men expect a woman to know how to please them sexually with all kinds of things that she would be better at after learning them from many partners...so being a low count woman can be really intimidating and a disadvantage on the sexual market! Very few men today value lack of experience in a sexual partner.
> 
> I think men are more excited and pleased with a woman who has had 20 partners who is great in bed than a woman who has less than 5 and will be a disappointment to be with!


Hell to the No! I would not even entertain a date with a woman with that kind of count. I woyld rather discover sex together.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> I don't agree that this is how women are viewed as much nowadays...I think the idea of women who are inexperienced and have a very low count can be UNAPPEALING to men. I've NEVER heard men brag about having a woman who had NO idea what to do when he got together with her. These days, men expect a woman to know how to please them sexually with all kinds of things that she would be better at after learning them from many partners...so being a low count woman can be really intimidating and a disadvantage on the sexual market! Very few men today value lack of experience in a sexual partner.
> 
> I think men are more excited and pleased with a woman who has had 20 partners who is great in bed than a woman who has less than 5 and will be a disappointment to be with!


I think you're on to something, but I think it depends if it's an experienced man or not. Inexperienced ones are pretty insecure and fearful of experienced women.


----------



## SunCMars

When ladies act a bit like men, think spit like men, the men go crazy!


----------



## LisaDiane

SunCMars said:


> When ladies act a bit like men, think spit like men, the men go crazy!


Wait...but crazy in a GOOD way, or a BAD way...??


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Both!


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Both!


Lolol!!!!!


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think you're on to something, but I think it depends if it's an experienced man or not. Inexperienced ones are pretty insecure and fearful of experienced women.


Nah,,, some of the most insecure men on the planet are the playa’s and the F’boyz and the dudes gloating in the locker room about their conquests. 

The OP is not necessarily insecure. He was following his beliefs and remaining abstinent until marriage. 

His beef is not about insecurity. It was that he was lied to and deceived about a topic that was very important to him.


----------



## oldshirt

manfromlamancha said:


> And the threadjack continues ....


Trying to keep a thread completely on the OP’s question is like trying to marry a Virgin LOL


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think a lot of men are so unduly "following their penises" so to speak and at times letting them overrule common sense that they assume most women are the same way, but they're not. Women can very easily switch it on and off and be faithful if that is what they want. I think it's an unfounded fear. I think men have far more trouble being faithful and project that onto women.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I used to enjoy casual sex, but falling in love kind of ruined that for me, at least while that was working out. Not only did I have no trouble being faithful, but even when things weren't working out, I had trouble getting involved because my feelings, not my vagina, dictated otherwise. We women mostly have pretty good control over our lady parts.


You need to research the material by Dr Wednesday Martin in her work with married women in long term relationships. 

Current research geared specifically towards women in LTRs is that it is actually the women that get dissatisfied in the relationship and crave sexual novelty and variety more than the men.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> Nah,,, some of the most insecure men on the planet are the playa’s and the F’boyz and the dudes gloating in the locker room about their conquests.
> 
> The OP is not necessarily insecure. He was following his beliefs and remaining abstinent until marriage.
> 
> His beef is not about insecurity. It was that he was lied to and deceived about a topic that was very important to him.


Well maybe anxiety ridden would be a better description of what I'm talking about. I've run across it firsthand.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> You need to research the material by Dr Wednesday Martin in her work with married women in long term relationships.
> 
> Current research geared specifically towards women in LTRs is that it is actually the women that get dissatisfied in the relationship and crave sexual novelty and variety more than the men.


Well that's one study and it flies in the face of most of the other studies. This isn't rocket science. Just living a while and observing people will give you a better idea than most of these studies.

Also just because one craves something doesn't mean one can't be faithful because of it, especially women, who aren't constantly prodded by testosterone.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

SunCMars said:


> When ladies act a bit like men, think spit like men, the men go crazy!


"Switching is easy, oh, it's essential
And you know when you flick it
You can start a new episode"

-- Golden Earring


----------



## LisaDiane

oldshirt said:


> Trying to keep a thread completely on the OP’s question is like trying to marry a Virgin LOL


Lolol!!!!!


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> Also just because one craves something doesn't mean one can't be faithful because of it, especially women, who aren't constantly prodded by testosterone.


No but as a society we have been sold a bad bill of sale that has historically said women are all about hearth and home and raising kids and are not sexually motivated of their own volition. 

They may not be constantly prodded by testosterone 24/7 but the hormones do surge once a month and when women are surrounded 24/7 by a sea of opportunity by 3 1/2 billion men in the world, anything can happen. 

People can choose to be faithful, but faithfulness is often determined by the suitability of other options and opportunities. 

People can choose to be faithful until they choose not to be. 

That decision process is forged by that individuals character. 

How one conducts themself prior to marriage is the only indicator of how one may conduct themself after marriage.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well maybe anxiety ridden would be a better description of what I'm talking about. I've run across it firsthand.


I’m not sure where you’re getting anxiety ridden??

If someone believes that sexuality should be confined to marriage is a belief and value system. It is not an anxiety effect. 

If someone has a strong belief and value in something, they tend to want to be partnered with someone who shares those beliefs and walks the same path.

That is not insecurity.

That is not anxiety. 

That is a belief and a value and a desire to be with someone who believes and practices the same. 

That is not a fault nor a weakness. It is a choice and criteria based on one’s own value system.

If this instance, if there is any insecurity or anxiety, it was on the part of the person who lied and manipulated and deceived her partner into believing she was something she was not. 

Those were the actions of someone motivated by insecurity that she she had to hide herself and her true nature to be with him.

It was she that was anxious she may not be able to get a man of integrity without lying and hiding her true nature.

The insecurity and anxiety are those who must deceive and portray false pretenses.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure where you’re getting anxiety ridden??
> 
> If someone believes that sexuality should be confined to marriage is a belief and value system. It is not an anxiety effect.
> 
> If someone has a strong belief and value in something, they tend to want to be partnered with someone who shares those beliefs and walks the same path.
> 
> That is not insecurity.
> 
> That is not anxiety.
> 
> That is a belief and a value and a desire to be with someone who believes and practices the same.
> 
> That is not a fault nor a weakness. It is a choice and criteria based on one’s own value system.
> 
> If this instance, if there is any insecurity or anxiety, it was on the part of the person who lied and manipulated and deceived her partner into believing she was something she was not.
> 
> Those were the actions of someone motivated by insecurity that she she had to hide herself and her true nature to be with him.
> 
> It was she that was anxious she may not be able to get a man of integrity without lying and hiding her true nature.
> 
> The insecurity and anxiety are those who must deceive and portray false pretenses.


You're relating my comments to something I wasn't even talking about. My comments were in response to a more recent post. however since you brought it up in this context I would have to say that a guy who is still obsessing about his wives prior lovers 30 years later is a tad bit insecure.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> You're relating my comments to something I wasn't even talking about. My comments were in response to a more recent post. however since you brought it up in this context I would have to say that a guy who is still obsessing about his wives prior lovers 30 years later is a tad bit insecure.


Yes he is insecure and having trust issues because his wife knowingly and intentionally lied to him and deceived him about something that was very important to him. 

That is cause and effect. 

His insecurities and distrust were caused by her actions.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> Yes he is insecure and having trust issues because his wife knowingly and intentionally lied to him and deceived him about something that was very important to him.
> 
> That is cause and effect.
> 
> His insecurities and distrust were caused by her actions.


You don't know that.


----------



## Wolfman1968

marcy* said:


> If he can’t handle the lying, he should divorce her, and not waste 10 years of his life trying to find out who the third person was. She lied once, she may lie again.


It's true. If you can't be honest with the person who is supposed to be the most important person in the world for you, then how could you ever go forward with trust?

Another thought: Do you think that our legal system would then say, "OK, since it was marriage by deceit, the marriage is null and void, and there is no obligation for a split of marital assets or alimony like a divorce"? I mean, if a contract or legal partnership was entered into under false pretenses, it would be considered null and void. In fact, there could be grounds for a legal action against the fraudster for damages in those situations. Why not in this legal sphere, then?


----------



## VladDracul

JustTheWife said:


> I doubt that most guys truly know how many penises have been in their wives.


By the time most guys have divorced their first ex-wife, they really don't give a crap. When you're much into your twenties and one marriage behind you, marrying a chick that's a virgin ain't much of an option. Besides, after you get passed the used part, the plumbing is usually in excellent shape and fun to play with.


----------



## VladDracul

LisaDiane said:


> I think men are more excited and pleased with a woman who has had 20 partners who is great in bed than a woman who has less than 5 and will be a disappointment to be with!


That why you want to find a man who are with women like a good violinist is with violins. He can make it sing whether its a Stradivarius or one that just came out of the makers shop.


----------



## Personal

VladDracul said:


> That why you want to find a man who are with women like a good violinist is with violins. He can make it sing whether its a Stradivarius or one that just came out of the makers shop.


Unfortunately most men don't have such talents.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Wolfman1968 said:


> It's true. If you can't be honest with the person who is supposed to be the most important person in the world for you, then how could you ever go forward with trust?
> 
> Another thought: Do you think that our legal system would then say, "OK, since it was marriage by deceit, the marriage is null and void, and there is no obligation for a split of marital assets or alimony like a divorce"? I mean, if a contract or legal partnership was entered into under false pretenses, it would be considered null and void. In fact, there could be grounds for a legal action against the fraudster for damages in those situations. Why not in this legal sphere, then?


No court is going to annul a 30 year marriage. Unless they signed a specific contract as part of a prenup that the marriage was contingent on her virginity then the courts will just treat it like any other divorce. The guy has remained married to her for years after finding out that she wasn't a virgin and he keeps needling her for more information on her sexual past.


----------



## ConanHub

oldshirt said:


> So how many is too many?? How many is not enough?
> 
> To the OP, one was too many.


And being a self serving liar didn't help her either.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think you're on to something, but I think it depends if it's an experienced man or not. Inexperienced ones are pretty insecure and fearful of experienced women.


I have a hard time generalizing myself.

Individuals definitely vary.

I have rarely been with an inexperienced woman and that includes my first time, going into the beginning years of my sexual activity.

I had zero insecurities or fears. Sex was too interesting and fun.

The only time I was really nervous or anxious was my first time with my wife because I knew something different and serious was taking place.

There are a lot of confusing, to me at least, insecure and fearful people out there and I'm sure some of them are inexperienced but I've seen some pretty insecure, fearful, anxious or otherwise messed up guys who were experienced as well. It might express itself a little differently than in inexperienced men but they are the same emotions.


----------



## Blondilocks

Two the Point said:


> Several months later, she told me that there was a third man that she had had sex with. But, unlike the first two, she said this: "I'm letting you know that there was a third man, but that's all I'm going to tell you.* Don't ever ask me his name, or any details of my relationship with him."*


I'm guessing you have abided by this order. Why? You won't know if you don't ask. As for your question of what secret she is keeping, well, it's obvious - she doesn't want you to know who the guy was. Look, you bought a bill of goods which were not as advertised. You have tortured yourself for over a decade with this business. Your therapists do not seem to be helping you come to terms with it. Do yourself a favor and stop obsessing about it. Accept that you married a lying manipulator or get a divorce. 

If your wife loved you, she would tell you to set your mind at ease.


----------



## SunCMars

LisaDiane said:


> Wait...but crazy in a GOOD way, or a BAD way...??


Beide !


----------



## SunCMars

Wolfman1968 said:


> It's true. If you can't be honest with the person who is supposed to be the most important person in the world for you, then how could you ever go forward with trust?
> 
> Another thought: Do you think that our legal system would then say, "OK, since it was marriage by deceit, the marriage is null and void, and there is no obligation for a split of marital assets or alimony like a divorce"? I mean, if a contract or legal partnership was entered into under false pretenses, it would be considered null and void. In fact, there could be grounds for a legal action against the fraudster for damages in those situations. Why not in this legal sphere, then?


Legality and Justice rarely meet in any middle.

Divorces are (were) geared towards equity with special emphasis on children.

Now, both get 50% of the assets, on average. 

Alimony is another factor.

The courts do not have the time, the will, or the interest in meting out true justice.

Married individuals lie, and distort.

Legal justice is not interested (much) in emotional justice when it comes to adults.
No time for that!


----------



## Diana7

Once she told me that there had been another man but I wont tell you who I would have said either you tell me or I go. It was cruel of her to do this.


----------



## SunCMars

DownByTheRiver said:


> "Switching is easy, oh, it's essential
> And you know when you flick it
> You can start a new episode"
> 
> -- Golden Earring


Ladies flick, men flog !


----------



## BruceBanner

Mr.Married said:


> Yet another reason why women would prefer to keep their mouth shut. Too many men that just can’t handle it.
> 
> She isn’t telling you because it’s someone close to you/her..... or he was married.... or it was a threesome.... or it was another girl.


Lmfao. They prefer to keep their mouths shut for their own benefit. If they were honest they know a lot of men would be off the table.


----------



## JustTheWife

Dictum Veritas said:


> It's not hard to figure out that I meant that people wanting to justify amorality often use the misnomer of being "evolved" or enlightened.


Do you long for the "good ole days" when women were, for the most part, not educated and were married off as virgins at 13, 14, or 15 or whatever?

I'm happy that we've evolved from that point. Now we go to college and grad school and build a career before getting married and have relationships and date along the way, including very commonly having sexual relationships with multiple men over that time before marriage.

Of course there are cultures where marrying young virgins is still acceptable and legal...they have not "evolved" from that. Do you think that's better than the way the western values have "evolved"?

Of course it's possible for women to become educated, build their careers and marry later AND still maintain their virginity or have a very low number of partners over 5 to 10 years of single years. But in practice it's not working like this across the population (which I think is your point). Women are dating and having sex so it appears that the (very sick) constructs (arranged marriages for young female virgins, little education, etc) practiced in certain cultures are needed to accomplish your view of how society should work.

Where there is freedom of education for women, freedom in opportunity, freedom from forced marriages, etc, there inevitably will be sexual freedom. And speaking generally across society, where there is sexual freedom, there is sex.

So yes, we have "evolved" and we have become more "enlightened".


----------



## marcy*

BruceBanner said:


> Lmfao. They prefer to keep their mouths shut for their own benefit. If they were honest they know a lot of men would be off the table.


Not really, it’s you who make a big deal about woman’s past. I don’t care how many women have been in my hubby’s life before me. All I care is how he treated them because this will tell me more about him as a person. My hubby shared with me many stories, which I didn’t care to learn their names and never ever crossed my mind to search them on fb.
But you push women to lie with your insecurities, only to avoid drama. We benefit nothing from hidding.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hello TwoThePoint - we have not heard from you recently. I know that the threadjack is taking on a life of its own but I (and some others) have tried to address your original question as to why she might not be telling you the identity of the 3rd man and also what you could do about it. What do you think of the feedback and advice? Would you be prepared to act on it?


----------



## BruceBanner

marcy* said:


> Not really, it’s you who make a big deal about woman’s past. I don’t care how many women have been in my hubby’s life before me. All I care is how he treated them because this will tell me more about him as a person. My hubby shared with me many stories, which I didn’t care to learn their names and never ever crossed my mind to search them on fb.
> But you push women to lie with your insecurities, only to avoid drama. We benefit nothing from hidding.


Men dislike promiscuous women so women who sleep around a lot benefit plenty from lying to men about how loose they really are. If they did not lie then those men would likely not want them for anything long-term.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BruceBanner said:


> Men dislike promiscuous women so women who sleep around a lot benefit plenty from lying to men about how loose they really are. If they did not lie then those men would likely not want them for anything long-term.


Unless you're running with a real religious crowd, my experience has been that this is not even a factor. This was just never an issue when I was young and seeing people. it was accepted that people were exploring during those eras because birth control had just been invented and it was considered a great thing that people could now have freedom. Things changed when AIDS emerged.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

The op has never said why he stayed with her. I am curious if it is just due to his strict religious beliefs that the marriage must be maintained.


----------



## BruceBanner

DownByTheRiver said:


> Unless you're running with a real religious crowd, my experience has been that this is not even a factor. This was just never an issue when I was young and seeing people. it was accepted that people were exploring during those eras because birth control had just been invented and it was considered a great thing that people could now have freedom. Things changed when AIDS emerged.


Religion or not this has been true since the dawn of humanity. To be with a woman who is known for sleeping around has been considered an embarrassment in several societies. Most men likely won't even ask about it but might show disapproval, regret, disgust, and possibly lose interest all together if and when it is revealed that their partner has a promiscuous past.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Well, some of us choose not to live with the same stifling mores that were in place at the dawn of humanity, particularly women, who didn't benefit from it at all.


----------



## manfromlamancha

For those who asked, the OP didn't know about it until after they were married and had children and since she had been a good wife and mother for the whole marriage he decided to give her a chance and put it down to sowing her wild oats and then having a change of heart and being afraid of losing him. WHAT HE IS STRUGGLING WITH NOW IS WHY SHE WILL NOT TELL HIM THE IDENTITY AND DETAILS OF THE 3RD MAN WHEN SHE DID FOR THE OTHER TWO (not shouting this, just emphasising it). Lets try and help him with this and not discuss the pros and cons of his preferences for a virgin wife.


----------



## marcy*

BruceBanner said:


> For those who asked, the OP didn't know about it until after they were married and had children and since she had been a good wife and mother for the whole marriage he decided to give her a chance and put it down to sowing her wild oats and then having a change of heart and being afraid of losing him. WHAT HE IS STRUGGLING WITH NOW IS WHY SHE WILL NOT TELL HIM THE IDENTITY AND DETAILS OF THE 3RD MAN WHEN SHE DID FOR THE OTHER TWO (not shouting this, just emphasising it). Lets try and help him with this and not discuss the pros and cons of his preferences for a virgin wife.


If he decided to give her a chance, he should leave the past behind. He can’t give her a chance if he is still stuck in her past.


----------



## oldshirt

marcy* said:


> Not really, it’s you who make a big deal about woman’s past. I don’t care how many women have been in my hubby’s life before me. All I care is how he treated them because this will tell me more about him as a person. My hubby shared with me many stories, which I didn’t care to learn their names and never ever crossed my mind to search them on fb.
> But you push women to lie with your insecurities, only to avoid drama. We benefit nothing from hidding.


Women generally don’t care much about how many women a man has been with.

Some are even attracted to and respect a man who has been with a good number of women vs a man who hasn’t. 

Male virginity basically means absolutely nothing to most women and some women will even mock it or cross a man off the list if he has not been with a woman before. 

But you can’t judge men by how women feel about it. To a number of men, it is very important and for some like the OP it is even critical and a deal breaker. 

I am not saying whether it is right or wrong for them to feel that way, I am saying for men it is a factor and for some it is a very big factor in their selection of a mate.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I just would not want to get serious with guy who had toxic baby mamas in his life.


----------



## ConanHub

BruceBanner said:


> Men dislike promiscuous women so women who sleep around a lot benefit plenty from lying to men about how loose they really are. If they did not lie then those men would likely not want them for anything long-term.


Here we go.

Not all men.

I am one that has no problem, and I'm not unique, with just about any sexual past that doesn't include criminal activities.

I have current requirements which include loyalty and honesty. There are a lot of men and women who behaved promiscuously for a time and regretted it and started making different choices.

I am one of them and I have no issues choosing a mate with any kind of life experience in her past.

The present and future interest me far more.


----------



## ConanHub

marcy* said:


> If he decided to give her a chance, he should leave the past behind. He can’t give her a chance if he is still stuck in her past.


Sure but she is still playing games and withholding truth.
Deal breakers upon deal breakers.


----------



## Laurentium

ConanHub said:


> I am one that has no problem, and I'm not unique, with just about any sexual past that doesn't include criminal activities.
> 
> I have current requirements which include loyalty and honesty. There are a lot of men and women who behaved promiscuously for a time and regretted it and started making different choices.


Yes, exactly, me too.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

All of my female friends avoided judgmental puritanical men like the plague, and there were a few of them left in our part of the country. So if they fancy they are a better catch because of their self-righteous puritanical rigidity, they are sadly mistaken. Their beliefs are considered vestigial at best by the majority of women who don't subscribe to their particular interpretation of religious strictures. No self-respecting woman I know would waste 10 minutes on a controlling man who believed it was okay for him to foist his rules on women. 

I'm still baffled why this couple is still together. Both of them have good grounds to leave, from where I'm sitting.


----------



## TAMAT

Note that his wife is lying to him, at this very moment she knows who OM3 is and continues to withhold his name and details.

He is not living in the past the past is living in him.


----------



## marcy*

ConanHub said:


> Sure but she is still playing games and withholding truth.
> Deal breakers upon deal breakers.


She told him that 10 years ago. Seriously, it’s time to move on. It’s just a name, maybe she doesn’t even remember his name anymore. Something that happened 30 years ago, who cares seriously, move on. It’s not that she cheated on her husband with him.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

He should leave, but not because she won't tell him the name. 

And if I were her, I'd leave him because he's too obsessive. I can't imagine living with that. I'm glad she told him she'd discussed it all she was going to.


----------



## marcy*

DownByTheRiver said:


> All of my female friends avoided judgmental puritanical men like the plague, and there were a few of them left in our part of the country. So if they fancy they are a better catch because of their self-righteous puritanical rigidity, they are sadly mistaken. Their beliefs are considered vestigial at best by the majority of women who don't subscribe to their particular interpretation of religious strictures. No self-respecting woman I know would waste 10 minutes on a controlling man who believed it was okay for him to foist his rules on women.
> 
> I'm still baffled why this couple is still together. Both of them have good grounds to leave, from where I'm sitting.


I don’t understand why she married him. If my hubby would have said to me I want to marry a virgin I would have left, even though I was a virgin. Don’t trust men who value you only for your virginity. They will always have trust issues. I was a virgin only because I didn’t fall for men who came after me. I didn’t like any them.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ConanHub said:


> Here we go.
> 
> Not all men.
> 
> I am one that has no problem, and I'm not unique, with just about any sexual past that doesn't include criminal activities.
> 
> I have current requirements which include loyalty and honesty. There are a lot of men and women who behaved promiscuously for a time and regretted it and started making different choices.
> 
> I am one of them and I have no issues choosing a mate with any kind of life experience in her past.
> 
> The present and future interest me far more.


I don't know any men or women who regret having been promiscuous. I know plenty who just stopped because they were bored with it or met someone they wanted to commit to.


----------



## TAMAT

Also bear in mind that perhaps most of us here have married or dated people within a rather narrow range of humanity. We may be more like "Two The Point" than we believe, and if we found out our SOs were not who they claimed to be would be deeply disturbed.

I'm not sure about the statements that he is insecure either, he endured this dishonesty for decades. Not knowing who the OM is when he could be anyone he meets on the street.


----------



## ConanHub

marcy* said:


> She told him that 10 years ago. Seriously, it’s time to move on. It’s just a name, maybe she doesn’t even remember his name anymore. Something that happened 30 years ago, who cares seriously, move on. It’s not that she cheated on her husband with him.


If you can't comprehend the game she is playing and comment on it, then reread the OP.

She keeps digging her own grave with her bull **** games. He has been up front and honest from the start and she has been lying her ass off and can't seem to stop on top of playing games.

She said she "WON'T" tell him, not can't remember.

She is absolutely full of **** and I would eject her for the continuing dishonesty and game playing alone and I wouldn't care if she was an ex porn star but her bull **** is what isn't tolerable.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't know any men or women who regret having been promiscuous. I know plenty who just stopped because they were bored with it or met someone they wanted to commit to.


You now know at least one via TAM and I'm married to another one so there are two for your data banks.


----------



## marcy*

ConanHub said:


> If you can't comprehend the game she is playing and comment on it, then reread the OP.
> 
> She keeps digging her own grave with her bull **** games. He has been up front and honest from the start and she has been lying her ass off and can't seem to stop on top of playing games.
> 
> She said she "WON'T" tell him, not can't remember.
> 
> She is absolutely full of *** and I would eject her for the continuing dishonesty and game playing alone and I wouldn't care if she was an ex porn star but her bull *** is what isn't tolerable.


She is playing because he is asking for it. If I was her, I would have left him. To him is more important a man’s name from her past than 30 years they had together.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> He should leave, but not because she won't tell him the name.
> 
> And if I were her, I'd leave him because he's too obsessive. I can't imagine living with that. I'm glad she told him she'd discussed it all she was going to.


So you promote lying and game playing?

That is what she is doing with a man that hasn't been dishonest with her.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ConanHub said:


> You now know at least one via TAM and I'm married to another one so there are two for your data banks.


Not in real life, actual friends I spent time with. In real life, you and I wouldn't know of each other.


----------



## oldshirt

ConanHub said:


> Here we go.
> 
> Not all men.
> 
> I am one that has no problem, and I'm not unique, with just about any sexual past that doesn't include criminal activities.
> 
> I have current requirements which include loyalty and honesty. There are a lot of men and women who behaved promiscuously for a time and regretted it and started making different choices.
> 
> I am one of them and I have no issues choosing a mate with any kind of life experience in her past.
> 
> The present and future interest me far more.


I understand what you are saying and a person’s number of past partners is neither an inclusion nor exclusion criteria for me either. 

But even your verbiage above is showing prejudice when you refer to someone’s past activities as a “mistake” and having “regret.”

Even the word promiscuous is typically used as a perjorative.

What about the people that have had a number of previous sex partners that do not have regret nor do they believe they made a mistake? Are they off the list because they have no repentance?


----------



## ConanHub

marcy* said:


> She is playing because he is asking for it. If I was her, I would have left him. To him is more important a man’s name from her past then 30 years together.


You are apparently far more honest than his wife who lied to manipulate him into marriage.

Hopefully you aren't a lying manipulative woman of straight forward and honest men.

You do recognize she is a committed liar and manipulator and OP has been honest with her?

You can't seem to acknowledge this woman had no business lying to this man in the first place and she is playing games now.

Do you think lying and manipulative women are somehow valuable?

Bad traits in my book. This woman needs to clean up her act.

Mrs. C has a far more "colorful" past and she is ashamed of much of it but she never lied to me about it.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> Not in real life, actual friends I spent time with. In real life, you and I wouldn't know of each other.


You might be surprised. I have ran with many crowds. I can assure you there are many more like me and my wife as well.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ConanHub said:


> So you promote lying and game playing?
> 
> That is what she is doing with a man that hasn't been dishonest with her.


If you'd read earlier posts, you'd know that everyone agrees she lied. I don't think it's his business who the lovers were and I think he is the bigger problem at this point 30 years in because of his obsession and inability to either get out of the marriage or truly move on.


----------



## ConanHub

oldshirt said:


> I understand what you are saying and a person’s number of past partners is neither an inclusion nor exclusion criteria for me either.
> 
> But even your verbiage above is showing prejudice when you refer to someone’s past activities as a “mistake” and having “regret.”
> 
> Even the word promiscuous is typically used as a perjorative.
> 
> What about the people that have had a number of previous sex partners that do not have regret nor do they believe they made a mistake? Are they off the list because they have no repentance?


I'm not showing prejudice at all.

I'm stating that folks like that exist, I am one, so is my wife and I know many more.

My current values are different than my past and I require similar values in a mate.

That is all.

I could marry an ex porn star that had put it behind her and no longer thought it acceptable but not a current porn star or someone who thought the life was ok.


----------



## ccpowerslave

The part that is confusing to me is let’s say she revealed the name.

What is next for the OP at that point? Does who the name is change his decision to stay with her or not? If so, then why wait for the name? If not, then why not just drop it?


----------



## marcy*

ConanHub said:


> You are apparently far more honest than his wife who lied to manipulate him into marriage.
> 
> Hopefully you aren't a lying manipulative woman of straight forward and honest men.
> 
> You do recognize she is a committed liar and manipulator and OP has been honest with her?
> 
> You can't seem to acknowledge this woman had no business lying to this man in the first place and she is playing games now.
> 
> Do you think lying and manipulative women are somehow valuable?
> 
> Bad traits in my book. This woman needs to clean up her act.
> 
> Mrs. C has a far more "colorful" past and she is ashamed of much of it but she never lied to me about it.


He had a choice, divorce her when learned that she lied, but he chose to keep her in his life and make her life hell going after her past. That’s how I see it. 
He reminds me my cousin’s husband. A mistake she made during their first year of marriage(long story which made me feel bad for her) it cost her only pain and a miserable life. He didn’t divorce her, but made her life a living hell.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> If you'd read earlier posts, you'd know that everyone agrees she lied. I don't think it's his business who the lovers were and I think he is the bigger problem at this point 30 years in because of his obsession and inability to either get out of the marriage or truly move on.


I get that you apparently believe lying isn't a deal breaker but OP does and I would too.

You can tolerate lying and that is your prerogative but many, including OP and myself, don't accept lying.


----------



## ccpowerslave

ConanHub said:


> I get that you apparently believe lying isn't a deal breaker but OP does and I would too.
> 
> You can tolerate lying and that is your prerogative but many, including OP and myself, don't accept lying.


The lying already happened, so clearly there was some level of acceptance here on the OPs part. Either that or he just likes being miserable.


----------



## ConanHub

marcy* said:


> He had a choice, divorce her when learned that she lied, but he chose to keep her in his life and make her life hell going after her past. That’s how I see it.
> He reminds me my cousin’s husband. A mistake she made during their first year of marriage(long story which made me feel bad for her) it cost her only pain and a miserable life. He didn’t divorce her, but made her life a living hell.


He isn't anyone you or I know so we have to go off of information he gives.

She is definitely making his life hell and it all stems from her deceptive and manipulative actions and continual game playing.

I would cut bait if I were him as well because I require honesty and I don't play or put up with players of games in a mate.

I do believe he is allowing himself to be tortured too much by all of this and isn't nearly as decisive as he should be.

I'm of the position that you either take a woman or you don't but there isn't an in between.


----------



## ConanHub

ccpowerslave said:


> The lying already happened, so clearly there was some level of acceptance here on the OPs part. Either that or he just likes being miserable.


The lying wasn't revealed until way late in the marriage and continues.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ConanHub said:


> I get that you apparently believe lying isn't a deal breaker but OP does and I would too.
> 
> You can tolerate lying and that is your prerogative but many, including OP and myself, don't accept lying.


At this point, you're just lashing out making what you want of my posts out of anger. I said early on he should leave her because she lied and virginity was a dealbreaker for him -- or so he says. Apparently not because he's still with her and obsessing to the point he should see a therapist 30 years later. No woman needs to feel obligated to disclose the names of her past lovers. If he has any sense, he'd have left her then. If she had any sense, she'd never have married him knowing this about him.


----------



## ccpowerslave

ConanHub said:


> The lying wasn't revealed until way late in the marriage and continues.


Yeah but reading the OP’s post it was first, months, second, months, partial third. OP signs up here 4 months ago and posts situation and now comes back. Add up all those months and it doesn’t sound like a pious zero-tolerance stance. To me it looks like plenty of wiggle room exists; so why not wiggle some more and drop it and live happily ever after?

If the name is that important and she won’t divulge then I agree with many here just leave. Otherwise stop the obsession and get on with life.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> The lying already happened, so clearly there was some level of acceptance here on the OPs part. Either that or he just likes being miserable.


I think it's the latter, and I bet it started long before he even met his wife.


----------



## ConanHub

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah but reading the OP’s post it was first, months, second, months, partial third. OP signs up here 4 months ago and posts situation and now comes back. Add up all those months and it doesn’t sound like a pious zero-tolerance stance. To me it looks like plenty of wiggle room exists; so why not wiggle some more and drop it and live happily ever after?
> 
> If the name is that important and she won’t divulge then I agree with many here just leave. Otherwise stop the obsession and get on with life.


He sounds less able to cope than me and I wouldn't put up with bull ****.

I don't like rubbing elbows with ex lovers I'm not aware of and I think it common courtesy to be made aware at least.

I think he should cut bait as well.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> At this point, you're just lashing out making what you want of my posts out of anger. I said early on he should leave her because she lied and virginity was a dealbreaker for him -- or so he says. Apparently not because he's still with her and obsessing to the point he should see a therapist 30 years later. No woman needs to feel obligated to disclose the names of her past lovers. If he has any sense, he'd have left her then. If she had any sense, she'd never have married him knowing this about him.


I'm not lashing out. What I am doing is zeroing in on exactly what you are trying to convey which isn't always easy on the other side of the screen.

I do agree that he should grow a spine and spank the wench and keep her or kiss her goodbye.

The mess is her making and she doesn't seem capable of stopping herself from making it worse.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ConanHub said:


> I'm not lashing out. What I am doing is zeroing in on exactly what you are trying to convey which isn't always easy on the other side of the screen.
> 
> I do agree that he should grow a spine and spank the wench and keep her or kiss her goodbye.
> 
> The mess is her making and she doesn't seem capable of stopping herself from making it worse.


Please realize that we don't even really know that. He's been very vague about timelines and we've not heard her side of the story. He doesn't like to get into the weeds and have to answer questions about it; hence why he was adamant no one talked about anything other than reasons she might not tell him. He's keeping things close to the vest and we're just accepting what he says is the truth from 30+ years ago.


----------



## ConanHub

DownByTheRiver said:


> Please realize that we don't even really know that. He's been very vague about timelines and we've not heard her side of the story. He doesn't like to get into the weeds and have to answer questions about it; hence why he was adamant no one talked about anything other than reasons she might not tell him. He's keeping things close to the vest and we're just accepting what he says is the truth from 30+ years ago.


That's all we have to go on.

I do believe he has issues which are clouding his reasoning. Of that, I have no doubt and I advised him to leave her in my first response to this thread and that was before being reminded of who this guy was.

It doesn't negate the idiot game his wife is playing if she really wants to repair and grow her marriage.

She apparently wanted the marriage so bad she lied and manipulated to get it and, if she still wants it, she is now going about it ass backwards.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

> It doesn't negate the idiot game his wife is playing if she really wants to repair and grow her marriage.


After 30 years I think they are both players in this idiot game. It is clear he won't leave her so why should she change what she is doing?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

He knows he can't replace her with a virgin, and so does she.


----------



## Blondilocks

His first two threads offer insight into his situation, if anyone cares to read them.


----------



## ConanHub

AGoodFlogging said:


> After 30 years I think they are both players in this idiot game. It is clear he won't leave her so why should she change what she is doing?


If she wants to continue destroying his tenuous grip on peace and further help the misery index in their marriage rise, by all means she should keep it up.

He should leave because she has displayed an absolute lack of ability to come clean and put it on the table.

Hey OP, LEAVE!


----------



## Two the Point

_"Please realize that we don't even really know that. He's been very vague about timelines and we've not heard her side of the story. _*He doesn't like to get into the weeds and have to answer questions about it;*_ hence why he was adamant no one talked about anything other than reasons she might not tell him. He's keeping things close to the vest and we're just accepting what he says is the truth from 30+ years ago." _

Okay, Down by the River.....It's apparent that you were simply phishing by posting the above quote, in an effort to get me to comment on something that was outside the realm of what I asked everyone to comment on in my opening post. What are the "weeds" you are referring to? By this comment and all the others you have posted on this thread, it's apparent that you're trying to come up with something that will make me look like the "bad guy" in this situation.

For me, the most difficult part is that I love my wife more than anyone else in this world. To feel betrayed by the one I love the most is difficult, whether the betrayal happened yesterday or 30 years ago. There's no limit on the period of time one can continue to experience the negative feelings that come from feeling betrayed. So, there's no expiration date on when someone can start a thread on this discussion board. Apparently, you think there is indeed a specific period of time when someone should stop feeling betrayed, or when it's no longer okay to post things on the discussion board.

Perhaps you're feeling guilty about something that you did to betray your spouse at one point in time, and are simply trying to make yourself feel better about it by coming up with something to rationalize that I'm the bad guy in this situation. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not.


----------



## oldshirt

Despite all the times I have kicked myself in the arse for not reading backstories on other threads that OPs have written, I still haven’t learned my lesson.

So she dated a guy for SEVEN YEARS and had the giblets to tell you that she hadn’t had sex????

And you had the naïveté (denial is probably a better word) to actually believe she hadn’t had sex?????

I got nuth’n.


----------



## LisaDiane

Two the Point said:


> _"Please realize that we don't even really know that. He's been very vague about timelines and we've not heard her side of the story. _*He doesn't like to get into the weeds and have to answer questions about it;*_ hence why he was adamant no one talked about anything other than reasons she might not tell him. He's keeping things close to the vest and we're just accepting what he says is the truth from 30+ years ago." _
> 
> Okay, Down by the River.....It's apparent that you were simply phishing by posting the above quote, in an effort to get me to comment on something that was outside the realm of what I asked everyone to comment on in my opening post. What are the "weeds" you are referring to? By this comment and all the others you have posted on this thread, it's apparent that you're trying to come up with something that will make me look like the "bad guy" in this situation.
> 
> For me, the most difficult part is that I love my wife more than anyone else in this world. To feel betrayed by the one I love the most is difficult, whether the betrayal happened yesterday or 30 years ago. There's no limit on the period of time one can continue to experience the negative feelings that come from feeling betrayed. So, there's no expiration date on when someone can start a thread on this discussion board. Apparently, you think there is indeed a specific period of time when someone should stop feeling betrayed, or when it's no longer okay to post things on the discussion board.
> 
> Perhaps you're feeling guilty about something that you did to betray your spouse at one point in time, and are simply trying to make yourself feel better about it by coming up with something to rationalize that I'm the bad guy in this situation. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not.


Maybe what she means by "weeds" is that there have been MANY posters who asked you specific questions on this thread, and you have not come on here to answer them at all - you've come on to comment that people aren't staying on topic, and now to take @DownByTheRiver to task (which are both ok)...but why aren't you answering anything else...??

Unless I've missed your posts with the answers...


----------



## Dictum Veritas

JustTheWife said:


> Do you long for the "good ole days" when women were, for the most part, not educated and were married off as virgins at 13, 14, or 15 or whatever?
> 
> I'm happy that we've evolved from that point. Now we go to college and grad school and build a career before getting married and have relationships and date along the way, including very commonly having sexual relationships with multiple men over that time before marriage.


Evolution is a biological change in an organism, what you are talking about is simply moral decay because of [insert any old excuse here].

Still doesn't change my mind at all as to not entering into a relationship with a women with a high body count. Any woman is free to sleep with every guy around as many times as she wants to, I am free to not want anything to do with her.

Still has nothing to do with evolution.


----------



## EleGirl

*Two the Point*

Was your wife angry with you when she told you about the 3rd guy? Is it possible that she told it to you to anger you, or to get back at you when she was angry? That might be why she cannot tell you the 3rd guy's name.. there might not actually be a 3rd guy.


----------



## manfromlamancha

So lets be clear about what happened. She tells him that she had a boyfriend for 7 years but never had sex with him. Eleven years into the marriage this ex calls her and she takes the call and continues to talk with him for 45 mins. He gets jealous and suspicious (understandably) and starts to probe - so she finally comes clean about having sex with not only him, but on pressing from him, with two other men too. It was disrespectful to take the call, more disrespectful to talk for 45 minutes and then finally comes clean about her lies. Now she tells him names and details of two of the three men - both of whom he knew at school/college. So what is the big deal about the third - she asked him not to ask her about the third man - so this was not separately discussed and therefore not made up. There is something more to this third man. And yes, he does deserve to know especially if this man is in their lives at present. This is not a question of not forgiving - it is a question of being continually lied to by omitting to give him this detail. She did with the other two and he knew both of them - so what is the big deal with this third one??? So lets not make this a discussion about his wanting a virgin bride since he himself was a virgin and agreed to abstain until marriage. Lets not forget that this is what she "wanted too" and lied to make it so - so be clear that he is not the bad guy here - she clearly is. But even this is not what he wants to discuss - he is trying to understand why she won't reveal who the third guys is. He is clearly not a made up lover and on the other hand, she thinks that she has "cleared" her conscience (even if it should not be clear yet).

It would drive me nuts if the following happened for example - she had sex with my brother or my dad, or her cousin, or her uncle and this could get progressively worse. Or it was someone that lived with them or is in their house now etc. Get the picture? So this is difficult enough without people here dragging this off into another direction/discussion. Who gives a sh!t what people's opinions are on whether one should wait until marriage or not. He needs help and we are not only not giving it to him, but making things worse by discussing other [email protected] and venting their own feelings.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Blondilocks said:


> His first two threads offer insight into his situation, if anyone cares to read them.


Read them first thing.


----------



## manfromlamancha

This is aimed @Two the Point - please ignore the threadjack stuff. I (and some others) have offered possible reasons for not telling you and also advice on what you might want to do to force her hand. I would really appreciate your response to this.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Two the Point said:


> Perhaps you're feeling guilty about something that you did to betray your spouse at one point in time, and are simply trying to make yourself feel better about it by coming up with something to rationalize that I'm the bad guy in this situation. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not.


None of the above. Haven't betrayed anyone. 


LisaDiane said:


> Maybe what she means by "weeds" is that there have been MANY posters who asked you specific questions on this thread, and you have not come on here to answer them at all - you've come on to comment that people aren't staying on topic, and now to take @DownByTheRiver to task (which are both ok)...but why aren't you answering anything else...??
> 
> Unless I've missed your posts with the answers...


Thank you!


----------



## ccpowerslave

OP came back and said he loves his wife more than anyone else in the world. Does knowing the identity of #3 (that she has admitted to) change that? If no, then why not drop it and be happy? This kind of reminds me of a Charles ****ens story.


----------



## LisaDiane

ccpowerslave said:


> OP came back and said he loves his wife more than anyone else in the world. Does knowing the identity of #3 (that she has admitted to) change that? If no, then why not drop it and be happy? This kind of reminds me of a Charles ****ens story.


We may never get the answers to those questions...


----------



## Divinely Favored

marcy* said:


> If he decided to give her a chance, he should leave the past behind. He can’t give her a chance if he is still stuck in her past.


She should have kept it to herself and never brought up the 3rd man. This is all on her deceitful self from the start.


----------



## EleGirl

*Please stop the infighting. If you are going to post on this thread, post directly to the OP. Posts that are just members attacking each other will be deleted.*

*{Speaking as a moderator}*


----------



## marcy*

ccpowerslave said:


> The part that is confusing to me is let’s say she revealed the name.
> 
> What is next for the OP at that point? Does who the name is change his decision to stay with her or not? If so, then why wait for the name? If not, then why not just drop it?





Divinely Favored said:


> She should have kept it to herself and never brought up the 3rd man. This is all on her deceitful self from the start.


We don’t know why she brought it up. She probably did it out of anger, maybe because he was getting so obssesed with two other ones, and created another one, to give him something new to get obssesed with, who may not even exist. Is not that I agree with her, but he is not a victim either. They deserve each other. He was in denial when he married her for believing she was a virgin, when she had a 7 year relationship, now, he woke up and can’t let the past go. 
I don’t get why she married a man who valued virginity? Why she thought it was a good idea?! Did she think that once he fell in love with her he will let it go?! Nope!!!


----------



## LisaDiane

Two the Point said:


> *For me, the most difficult part is that I love my wife more than anyone else in this world.* To feel betrayed by the one I love the most is difficult, whether the betrayal happened yesterday or 30 years ago. There's no limit on the period of time one can continue to experience the negative feelings that come from feeling betrayed. So, there's no expiration date on when someone can start a thread on this discussion board. Apparently, you think there is indeed a specific period of time when someone should stop feeling betrayed, or when it's no longer okay to post things on the discussion board.


If this is true (and I'm not saying I doubt it), then WHY aren't you able to work this out and move on better than you appear to be...why are you having to get answers from anonymous posters online, instead of right from HER? WHY haven't you two found a way to work through this by now...??


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Waiting..................................

Thanks.


----------



## BruceBanner

ConanHub said:


> Here we go.
> 
> Not all men.
> 
> I am one that has no problem, and I'm not unique, with just about any sexual past that doesn't include criminal activities.
> 
> I have current requirements which include loyalty and honesty. There are a lot of men and women who behaved promiscuously for a time and regretted it and started making different choices.
> 
> I am one of them and I have no issues choosing a mate with any kind of life experience in her past.
> 
> The present and future interest me far more.


Old habits are difficult to break. Promiscuous people tend to cheat more and have higher divorce rates. So there are plenty more reasons to not want anything to do with them. I'm not judging you I don't care about what you do with your life I'm just putting this information out there.



ccpowerslave said:


> OP came back and said he loves his wife more than anyone else in the world. Does knowing the identity of #3 (that she has admitted to) change that? If no, then why not drop it and be happy? This kind of reminds me of a Charles ****ens story.


Because guy number three might still be in their lives. Could be anyone. A cousin, brother, her boss, the bakery man, a car dealer. I wouldn't be surprised if she has feelings for guy number three and he is the one who got away.


----------



## ConanHub

BruceBanner said:


> Old habits are difficult to break. Promiscuous people tend to cheat more and have higher divorce rates. So there are plenty more reasons to not want anything to do with them. I'm not judging you I don't care about what you do with your life I'm just putting this information out there.


I've been in the field for decades and I have noticed other contributing factors that are more indicative of a propensity to cheat.

Mrs. C and I both had high numbers and she had been involved in infidelity multiple times but we have been faithful in our marriage.

I'm privy to many cases where there was infidelity with a very low or even non existent partner count before marriage.


----------



## Divinely Favored

marcy* said:


> She told him that 10 years ago. Seriously, it’s time to move on. It’s just a name, maybe she doesn’t even remember his name anymore. Something that happened 30 years ago, who cares seriously, move on. It’s not that she cheated on her husband with him.


I think it is someone they are friends with or may be a brother or other close family member.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Divinely Favored said:


> I think it is someone they are friends with or may be a brother or other close family member.


Or someone who sexually abused her and she doesn't want to talk about it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

^ Very likely.

Or his pastor.


----------



## NextTimeAround

DownByTheRiver said:


> All of my female friends avoided judgmental puritanical men like the plague, and there were a few of them left in our part of the country. So if they fancy they are a better catch because of their self-righteous puritanical rigidity, they are sadly mistaken. Their beliefs are considered vestigial at best by the majority of women who don't subscribe to their particular interpretation of religious strictures. No self-respecting woman I know would waste 10 minutes on a controlling man who believed it was okay for him to foist his rules on women.
> 
> I'm still baffled why this couple is still together. Both of them have good grounds to leave, from where I'm sitting.


In my younger days, as long as I wasn't explicit, a little sexual experience seemed to be exciting SOME of the guys I dated.

When I was 50, I went on a date with a Pakistani. He knew how old I was, and that I was divorced .... and he still asked me when did I lose my virginity.


----------



## Divinely Favored

AGoodFlogging said:


> Or someone who sexually abused her and she doesn't want to talk about it.


Then why would she bring it up. I do not believe that is the case at all.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

NextTimeAround said:


> In my younger days, as long as I wasn't explicit, a little sexual experience seemed to be exciting SOME of the guys I dated.
> 
> When I was 50, I went on a date with a Pakistani. He knew how old I was, and that I was divorced .... and he still asked me when did I lose my virginity.


Ugh.


----------



## oldshirt

BruceBanner said:


> Promiscuous people tend to cheat more and have higher divorce rates. So there are plenty more reasons to not want anything to do with them. I'm not judging you I don't care about what you do with your life I'm just putting this information out there.


Sounds like pure judgement to me. 

There’s been a lot of social changes in the last 50 years. 

The advent of the pill and the feminist and social movements of the 60s ushered in an era of sexual freedom that exponentially increased the amount of premarital sex.

Further social and economic changes resulted in people marrying later and no longer marrying in late teens-early 20s thus resulting in people having more sex partner’s prior to marriage.

Greater equality in employment and educational opportunities and reduced birth rates resulted in women being in greater numbers in the workplace and colleges and other activities with men that likely resulted in an increase in extra marital sex. 

Further social, legal and economic changes and resulted in a greater acceptance and greater access to divorce resulting in greater divorce rates now than 40-50 years ago. 

So in general, more people are having more premarital sex, greater numbers of sex partners and greater numbers of divorces. 

Both those are bigger social and legal trends taking place across the board. People are divorcing more now BECAUSE THEY CAN and people are able to better afford to divorce now. 

That doesn’t mean that greater numbers of infidelity and divorces are being caused specifically by people having more than one sex partner. 

And we also have to take into account the US population has essentially doubled since the early ‘60s. There are simply twice the number of people than there was in our grandparents era. 

So All of those things are taking place across the board with a multitude of factors contributing.


----------



## Gabriel

OP, in your shoes I'd pry a little bit.

I'd say, look, I want to respect your boundaries and I won't ask the identity of this man. BUT, I need to know a few things in order for me to get past this.

1) Is this person a member of my family or yours? (wait, read her reaction)
2) Did this person rape or molest you? (wait, read her reaction)

If the answer to both of these is no, then

3) Can you just tell me why this particular person needs to be such a secret? Because all you've done is make me want to know all that much more, and it's driving me absolutely crazy. I want to make sure I protect you and me from pain going forward.


----------



## Divinely Favored

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can't even believe "extramarital sex" is still a term, really. And totally agree that more people divorce because they can. It's called freedom. Women didn't have it for centuries, and now they embrace it. They are free to do whatever if they live in a free country, whether that is marry and have kids or not. No one will be taking that away from them no matter how much they disagree with it.


No its called not being committed to making it work. Im bored with you...i want i divorce. I met someone i like better....see ya! The world is now all about not taking responsibility for your choices. Many people are cake eaters. They want to do what they want to do but they should not have to suffer the consequences for their choices. Someone else should suffer the consequences for my choices. This is what has gone on here. If he did not want to divorce, some in this instant might add 3 more notches to even things out. I bet the deceitful spouse would be pissed at that while not seeing any wrong with what she has perpetrated against her hubby.


----------



## Young at Heart

Livvie said:


> So you also believe then that men should keep it in their pants, because women don't want the idea of all of those other women sharing the same ****?


Well, yes, men should keep in their pants unless they are in a committed relationship. F-n around in not a good way for a man to live his life, as it can result in lots of complications. I do DNA genealogical research as a hobby. There are so many stories about "who is this person listed as a half sibling, when I don't know them."


----------



## NextTimeAround

DownByTheRiver said:


> He knows he can't replace her with a virgin, and so does she.


But there are born again virgins out there. I've known a few.


----------



## NextTimeAround

BruceBanner said:


> Old habits are difficult to break. Promiscuous people tend to cheat more and have higher divorce rates. So there are plenty more reasons to not want anything to do with them. I'm not judging you I don't care about what you do with your life I'm just putting this information out there.
> 
> 
> 
> Because guy number three might still be in their lives. Could be anyone. A cousin, brother, her boss, the bakery man, a car dealer. I wouldn't be surprised if she has feelings for guy number three and he is the one who got away.


We could define what promiscuous means then. Some people who married their childhood sweetheart and never had sex with anyone else start to wonder what they've been missing.


----------



## Diana7

NextTimeAround said:


> We could define what promiscuous means then. Some people who married their childhood sweetheart and never had sex with anyone else start to wonder what they've been missing.


I know quite a few couples who married their teenage sweethearts, all married at least 40 years and all seem very happy.


----------



## Divinely Favored

NextTimeAround said:


> We could define what promiscuous means then. Some people who married their childhood sweetheart and never had sex with anyone else start to wonder what they've been missing.


Some regret the memories they can not get rid of.


----------



## Wolfman1968

AGoodFlogging said:


> No court is going to annul a 30 year marriage. Unless they signed a specific contract as part of a prenup that the marriage was contingent on her virginity then the courts will just treat it like any other divorce. The guy has remained married to her for years after finding out that she wasn't a virgin and he keeps needling her for more information on her sexual past.


I know that no court would do this. That is my point, although I apparently didn't make that point so well. What I am saying is that despite the fact that posters tell the OP some variation of, "Well, since you married under fraudulent circumstances, if it bothers you that much, then you are justified in ending the marriage and leaving," it's not really that easy. It's NOT a simple "do-over". Courts WON'T treat him like a victim of a fraudulent contract, and there are things he has lost---like the change for a marriage in which each spouse was each other's one and only lover---which can never be restored. 

And, to give him the benefit of the doubt, that may be part of why he has stayed in the marriage despite finding out about her lies. Because, since he has been married to her, he will never be able to achieve that ideal anyway. And I think that thought eats at him.


----------



## ConanHub

NextTimeAround said:


> In my younger days, as long as I wasn't explicit, a little sexual experience seemed to be exciting SOME of the guys I dated.
> 
> When I was 50, I went on a date with a Pakistani. He knew how old I was, and that I was divorced .... and he still asked me when did I lose my virginity.


WOW!😳


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Wolfman1968 said:


> And, to give him the benefit of the doubt, that may be part of why he has stayed in the marriage despite finding out about her lies. Because, since he has been married to her, he will never be able to achieve that ideal anyway. And I think that thought eats at him.


Surely it is the same religious convictions that required him to remain a virgin and seek one to marry that are keeping him in the marriage? I mean if you are going to take such a fundamentalist view on entering marriage I assume you would take a similarly fundamentalist view of leaving one.


----------



## oldshirt

AGoodFlogging said:


> Surely it is the same religious convictions that required him to remain a virgin and seek one to marry that are keeping him in the marriage? I mean if you are going to take such a fundamentalist view on entering marriage I assume you would take a similarly fundamentalist view of leaving one.


Not necessarily. Some of those religious groups allow men and their families douse their wives with gas and set them on fire or stone them or cast them out of the village if they feel they have been dishonored by them.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

oldshirt said:


> Not necessarily. Some of those religious groups allow men and their families douse their wives with gas and set them on fire or stone them or cast them out of the village if they feel they have been dishonored by them.


Any suggestions the guy has considered an honour killing or are you just mentioning them because?

I'd say that if that is the belief system in play (doubt it is) it fits exactly what I said.


----------



## Blondilocks

This thread is 17 pages and the OP has made 3 posts. It looks like he's gotten what he was after.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

oldshirt said:


> Not necessarily. Some of those religious groups allow men and their families douse their wives with gas and set them on fire or stone them or cast them out of the village if they feel they have been dishonored by them.


There are still cultures in some third-world countries who rape women and then murder the women for being raped because now they're useless and impure. Genital mutilation, all that stuff, still goes on. Author Ayaan Hirsi Ali has written books about her firsthand experiences trying to flee those places.


----------



## BruceBanner

ConanHub said:


> I have noticed other contributing factors that are more indicative of a propensity to cheat.


I'm curious. Like what?



oldshirt said:


> The advent of the pill and the feminist and social movements of the 60s ushered in an era of sexual freedom that exponentially increased the amount of premarital sex.


Yes I know and that was a terrible thing.



oldshirt said:


> Greater equality in employment and educational opportunities and reduced birth rates resulted in women being in greater numbers in the workplace and colleges and other activities with men that likely resulted in an increase in extra marital sex.


Yes I have suspected that for a while. It's actually quite hilarious when you think about it. It didn't take long for women to catch up with men in the infidelity race did it? Also there's definitely a link between number of previous partners and how likely a person is to divorce or cheat.



NextTimeAround said:


> We could define what promiscuous means then. Some people who married their childhood sweetheart and never had sex with anyone else start to wonder what they've been missing.


I thought it would be pretty obvious what I meant. Having short-term relations with multiple people (sometimes all at once or separately) you likely have no intention of having a deeper relationship with. A one-and-done deal usually.



Young at Heart said:


> Well, yes, men should keep in their pants unless they are in a committed relationship. F-n around in not a good way for a man to live his life, as it can result in lots of complications. I do DNA genealogical research as a hobby. There are so many stories about "who is this person listed as a half sibling, when I don't know them."


Do you use any sites in particular for your research?


----------



## NextTimeAround

For people still pursuing an education, they may likely have fleeting liaisons. It's a tower of Babel and people are still breaking their boundaries. Perhaps, Liberty College or Oral Roberts university might be a better match for someone wanting to remain a virgin.

I would definitely advise women to have sex with a guy that she and he are seeing each other exclusively. No woman wans to learn expos facto that they married a homosexual. They make great friends and co-owners (I share a freehold with 2 gay men) but for me, I would rather that the state give them rights same sex marriages so that they don't have to lead double lives.

Another reason is that you can be used for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of ways. Man can withhold sex as well because the guy is on the rebound and doesn't want to cheat on his estranged gf, for example. Or maybe he wants to say "Even though I took up your under false pretenses, at least I didn't use you for sex."


----------



## oldshirt

BruceBanner said:


> Yes I know and that was a terrible thing.


It’s a terrible thing that people can determine their own fecundity and have control over whether they have offspring and how many???? 😮 

Wow!!


----------



## oldshirt

BruceBanner said:


> Yes I have suspected that for a while. It's actually quite hilarious when you think about it. It didn't take long for women to catch up with men in the infidelity race did it?


So if guys were cheating more than women in good ol’ days, does that mean they were all gay and cheating with each other? 

If more men were cheating than women, then who were they cheating with?

Were chastity belts and female circumcision and burkas and denying women educations and employment meant to prevent men from cheating?


----------



## Evinrude58

I’ve been thinking about this one for a while, and here’s my answer to his question:

There have been any number of reasons for her not to tell him, and there are likely many others. The problem I see is that OP’s wife has been a good wife for many years, and has shown no propensity for cheating or anything else negative.

I think that he needs to have then both sit down with An unbiased professional and he should outline his need for closure on this and what he feels he needs. 

The thing is, will whatever she gives him ever be enough? She’s been a good, loving, faithful wife for many years. 

OP, you need to either let this go, or divorce her now. If this continues, your going to drive a wedge in between you and your wife and the result is you will likely lose her anyway.

Let the past be the past. You can either forgive her or you can’t. Only you can decide.
Has she even asked for forgiveness for deceiving you? Apparently you’re not into discussions much.....


----------



## BruceBanner

oldshirt said:


> It’s a terrible thing that people can determine their own fecundity and have control over whether they have offspring and how many???? 😮
> 
> Wow!!


It's a terrible thing because it led to people treating sex as almost nothing but a recreational activity and added another way for people to avoid the consequence of intercourse: offspring. It allowed women to be promiscuous and women are the gatekeeper to sex. Men can't be promiscuous without women also being promiscuous. They go hand-in-hand. I reject both male and female promiscuity in case some of you couldn't notice.



oldshirt said:


> So if guys were cheating more than women in good ol’ days, does that mean they were all gay and cheating with each other?
> 
> If more men were cheating than women, then who were they cheating with?
> 
> Were chastity belts and female circumcision and burkas and denying women educations and employment meant to prevent men from cheating?


Women of course. You think women cheating is anything new? Being a stay at home mother did not stop women from cheating. Ever heard of the phrase "milkman baby?" We just have better statistics and sources to draw from and women are now more integrated into the workplace so of course the rate would go up because of them being surrounded by men and workplace affairs in general are more difficult to catch especially when co-workers tend to keep their mouths closed when they see something suspicious. Also Paternity fraud has become more common or maybe it's just being more exposed with material like 23andMe and AncestryDNA. I reckon it's just become more exposed. Also men could also cheat with prostitutes and through other means.


----------



## Livvie

BruceBanner said:


> It's a terrible thing because it led to people treating sex as almost nothing but a recreational activity and added another way for people to avoid the consequence of intercourse: offspring. It allowed women to be promiscuous and women are the gatekeeper to sex. Men can't be promiscuous without women also being promiscuous. They go hand-in-hand. I reject both male and female promiscuity in case some of you couldn't notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Women of course. You think women cheating is anything new? Being a stay at home mother did not stop women from cheating. Ever heard of the phrase "milkman baby?" We just have better statistics and sources to draw from and women are now more integrated into the workplace so of course the rate would go up because of them being surrounded by men and workplace affairs in general are more difficult to catch especially when co-workers tend to keep their mouths closed when they see something suspicious. Also Paternity fraud has become more common or maybe it's just being more exposed with material like 23andMe and AncestryDNA. I reckon it's just become more exposed. Also men could also cheat with prostitutes and through other means.


Wow you are a sexist mysogenist. I'm going to block you, happily.


----------



## BruceBanner

Livvie said:


> Wow you are a sexist mysogenist. I'm going to block you, happily.


What did I say that was particularly misogynist?


----------



## Rob_1

BruceBanner said:


> What did I say that was particularly misogynist?


Nothing. The problem is that in today's societies if any man says anything that might be perceived as negative toward women in general, immediately, you are labeled as a pariah, a misogynist a woman hater. Any comment with resemblance to the truth, bring men hater feminists out of the woods.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BruceBanner said:


> It's a terrible thing because it led to people treating sex as almost nothing but a recreational activity


Oh, right. Because over the centuries, men have only treated sex with reverence and had it to make babies! No recreation there. Raping and pillaging, all with a reverent attempt to procreate. Multiple wives, just fulfilling an obligation to make babies. Pulease.


----------



## ConanHub

Two the Point said:


> _"Please realize that we don't even really know that. He's been very vague about timelines and we've not heard her side of the story. _*He doesn't like to get into the weeds and have to answer questions about it;*_ hence why he was adamant no one talked about anything other than reasons she might not tell him. He's keeping things close to the vest and we're just accepting what he says is the truth from 30+ years ago." _
> 
> Okay, Down by the River.....It's apparent that you were simply phishing by posting the above quote, in an effort to get me to comment on something that was outside the realm of what I asked everyone to comment on in my opening post. What are the "weeds" you are referring to? By this comment and all the others you have posted on this thread, it's apparent that you're trying to come up with something that will make me look like the "bad guy" in this situation.
> 
> For me, the most difficult part is that I love my wife more than anyone else in this world. To feel betrayed by the one I love the most is difficult, whether the betrayal happened yesterday or 30 years ago. There's no limit on the period of time one can continue to experience the negative feelings that come from feeling betrayed. So, there's no expiration date on when someone can start a thread on this discussion board. Apparently, you think there is indeed a specific period of time when someone should stop feeling betrayed, or when it's no longer okay to post things on the discussion board.
> 
> Perhaps you're feeling guilty about something that you did to betray your spouse at one point in time, and are simply trying to make yourself feel better about it by coming up with something to rationalize that I'm the bad guy in this situation. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not.


Given your stance, I believe you need to get over the crazy in your own head, sit her down with love and confidence and tell her you aren't going anywhere and love her totally and you also need her to have confidence in your love for her and that you aren't going anywhere and she needs to stop with any games and just get the secret junk that is between you two out so it can be put on a back shelf where it belongs.


----------



## BruceBanner

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, right. Because over the centuries, men have only treated sex with reverence and had it to make babies! No recreation there. Raping and pillaging, all with a reverent attempt to procreate. Multiple wives, just fulfilling an obligation to make babies. Pulease.


The key word there was almost. Nowadays there is little holding anyone back with modern technology. If anything what I said implied the opposite: that men do not generally treat sex with reverence.


----------



## hairyhead

I think it is fairly obvious that by revealing who the third person is she risks even more information about her pre-marriage life becoming known.

That suggest the 3rd man is still close either socially or even just physically (lives nearby).

The question for the OP is does he really want to start to unravel something which doesn't really matter after such a long time.

Pandora's box, basically.


----------



## jlg07

@Two the Point, any updates? Have you had a discussion with your wife?


----------



## Mr.Married

Blondilocks said:


> This thread is 17 pages and the OP has made 3 posts. It looks like he's gotten what he was after.


No I think he didn’t get what he was looking for (but perhaps she did) 😳


----------

