# What else can a woman do?



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

My friend was chatting with me on Zoom yesterday, catching up as we have not met in person for a while. I asked her how Nick was and she started telling me that she is having issues she thinks are related to lockdown. A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week. Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried. She asks what else she could do. She apologised but he is not budging. 

She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

Don't blame him one bit. She exhibited abusive behavior towards him. Who wants to have sex with that?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

She sees having sex with him as a chore, something he should be grateful for. 
Not an uncommon trait amongst some woman I’m afraid.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

So she wants ALL the power in his sexual relationship...? She wants to control his desire AND decide what is right for him sexually...? And would she allow him to have sex with other women if he is wanting sex and she is not...or is he only supposed to have sex with HER when SHE decides he can have sex...??

Oh, and HOW does she like being ignored and turned down sexually? It sounds like she's not enjoying that very much...I guess getting a taste of her own medicine isn't very palatable...


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> My friend was chatting with me on Zoom yesterday, catching up as we have not met in person for a while. I asked her how Nick was and she started telling me that she is having issues she thinks are related to lockdown. A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week. Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried. She asks what else she could do. She apologised but he is not budging.
> 
> She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


I believe the husband is handling the situation perfectly. She made her bed now she gets to lie in it, alone.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

She kind of trampled all over him even though she probably didn’t do it intentionally. Many women believe it is just a release for a man but there can be a huge emotional component to it they’re overlooking.

With that said if his goal was to have more sex with his wife and he’s turning it down and stonewalling when it is offered with the best of intentions then he’s messing up. Maybe a sex therapist for the both of them?


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> She sees having sex with him as a chore, something he should be grateful for.
> Not an uncommon trait amongst some woman I’m afraid.


Likewise, a common trait amongst some men are that their wives owe it to them.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

AndStilliRise said:


> Likewise, a common trait amongst some men are that their wives owe it to them.


This is the type of attitude that causes a man to leave a marriage. If my wife basically said you want sex more than me so sorry you will get it only when I'm in the mood and thats all there is to discuss. I would say ok nothing to discuss agreed. The I would pack my bags. It's not just the question of sex but the attitude towards the partner.


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> This is the type of attitude that causes a man to leave a marriage. If my wife basically said you want sex more than me so sorry you will get it only when I'm in the mood and thats all there is to discuss. I would say ok nothing to discuss agreed. The I would pack my bags. It's not just the question of sex but the attitude towards the partner.


I totally agree with you. I was not suggesting the husband in the OP expects that, I was making the counter argument to your comment. Both comments are true. Some men think their wives owe it to them, some wives believe it's a chore and the men should be grateful. In a great marriage, neither are true.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> My friend was chatting with me on Zoom yesterday, catching up as we have not met in person for a while. I asked her how Nick was and she started telling me that she is having issues she thinks are related to lockdown. A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week. Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried. She asks what else she could do. She apologised but he is not budging.
> 
> She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


Prepare for him to dump her when the lock down is over. That was pretty rough, doubt many could come back from that.

She might want to try to learn about men's sexual nature.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> *This is the type of attitude that causes a man to leave a marriage. * If my wife basically said you want sex more than me so sorry you will get it only when I'm in the mood and thats all there is to discuss. I would say ok nothing to discuss agreed. The I would pack my bags. It's not just the question of sex but the attitude towards the partner.


Or a WOMAN...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

What did you say to her?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

MaiChi said:


> My friend was chatting with me on Zoom yesterday, catching up as we have not met in person for a while. I asked her how Nick was and she started telling me that she is having issues she thinks are related to lockdown. A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week. Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried. She asks what else she could do. She apologised but he is not budging.
> 
> She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


Well what the hell did she expect. Callous and insensitive she is. She should be flattered at his overtures .


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> She asks what else she could do.


Invent a time machine.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

If my wife blamed me for being too old and that I was wrong for wanting intimacy at my age, that would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and I’d file and start looking for a younger woman that wants an intimate relationship and can keep up with me.

She should consider herself fortunate he hasn’t asked her to leave so he can move a younger woman in.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Or a WOMAN...


True True True. Anytime either partner is just simply dismissive of the other is bad mojo.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She shamed him for his sexuality and then told him he should be grateful for whatever crumbs she throws his way. It's no wonder he doesn't want to share his sexuality with her. I wouldn't, either.

Bring your friend here to read this thread. Then send her to the Reddit Deadbedrooms sub and have her do some reading. It's not uncommon to see people posting that after being frequently rejected and shamed they simply stop seeing their spouses as sex partners and their feelings toward them as romantic partners starts to die.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> My friend was chatting with me on Zoom yesterday, catching up as we have not met in person for a while. I asked her how Nick was and she started telling me that she is having issues she thinks are related to lockdown. A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week. Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried. She asks what else she could do. She apologised but he is not budging.
> 
> She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


Wow that was mean and cruel, no wonder he is hurt. My husband's ex was a bit like that, making him feel like a freak for wanting sex more than once a week. He eventually sort of gave up after feeling rejected so many times.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> She kind of trampled all over him even though she probably didn’t do it intentionally. Many women believe it is just a release for a man but there can be a huge emotional component to it they’re overlooking.
> 
> With that said if his goal was to have more sex with his wife and he’s turning it down and stonewalling when it is offered with the best of intentions then he’s messing up. Maybe a sex therapist for the both of them?


He is turning it down because he is so hurt.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Or a WOMAN...


 I asked her how she decided that he might be too old for sex and she said she had looked it up on google what the averages were for his age group. I tried to explain that averages were just that, averages but individual people may vary. She still said he wants it too much. I explained to her that people living in old people's homes have instances of STIs meaning they are having sex. 

Its since gone further and she says she is trying to get forgiveness.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MaiChi said:


> I asked her how she decided that he might be too old for sex and *she said she had looked it up on google what the averages were for his age group.* I tried to explain that averages were just that, averages but individual people may vary. She still said he wants it too much. I explained to her that people living in old people's homes have instances of STIs meaning they are having sex.
> 
> Its since gone further and she says she is trying to get forgiveness.


This should be a non-issue for her -- I don't give a flying-crap what google says about my sexuality, I am ME and I want to be desired and appreciated by my partner as who I am, not what google says I am, and not how I am compared to anyone else in my age group, or anything else!!!
If my partner thinks I'm not good enough the way I am, then he's free to move on and find someone he likes better, and I will too.

The issue here is that she is using anything she can find to try and discredit and control his sexual needs and desires, and that is just WRONG. Her obligation as his monogamous partner is to CARE about his needs - ALL of them, sexual and non-sexual - and to make them just as important to her as her own needs and desires are to her.

If she cannot do that, then she shouldn't be in a monogamous relationship at all.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Out of curiosity, how old is he? And she?


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> I asked her how she decided that he might be too old for sex and she said she had looked it up on google what the averages were for his age group. I tried to explain that averages were just that, averages but individual people may vary. She still said he wants it too much. I explained to her that people living in old people's homes have instances of STIs meaning they are having sex.
> 
> Its since gone further and she says she is trying to get forgiveness.


She wants to absolve herself from wrongdoing and guilt. That's not how forgiveness works.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Some people just get a bag of giggles from saying no. I even tried it my self. It's a real power trip. and why not, it's not like you are giving up very much sex.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> He is turning it down because he is so hurt.


Yeah well get your big boy pants on. I wanted my wife to initiate and once I figured out that would happen very rarely I got over it. I am having more sex with her now than probably since the year we got married. Both people need to get over their hang ups.

Sulking in the corner isn’t sexy.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah well get your big boy pants on. I wanted my wife to initiate and once I figured out that would happen very rarely I got over it. I am having more sex with her now than probably since the year we got married. Both people need to get over their hang ups.
> 
> Sulking in the corner isn’t sexy.


Well, YOU were lucky then that your wife responded to whatever it is that you did, because there are plenty of people in relationships where NOTHING works to get a sex-refusing partner to care.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Maybe. I think people make their own luck. Once I applied myself to the problem it was solvable. Of course my wife came with some variation of reasons why although in my case it wasn’t that I was too old.

Many books have been written about this and I have centered around the male pursuer side as that directly helps me. Where I was at a few months ago I had decided that I was willing to leave if things didn’t change. So there isn’t a persistent state of failure unless you’re willing to live like that. I wasn’t so I don’t.

For the OP’s buddy who trashed her husband, keep trying with him.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> Out of curiosity, how old is he? And she?


She is 48 and he is 54
together 24


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> She is 48 and he is 54
> together 24


Omg he's 54 and she's trying to tell him he's too old for frequent sex? 

I can't laugh enough!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> She is 48 and he is 54
> together 24


She's using age as an excuse.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

She can't seriously have said that to him and now wonder why he won't touch her. Wow.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe. I think people make their own luck. Once I applied myself to the problem it was solvable. Of course my wife came with some variation of reasons why although in my case it wasn’t that I was too old.
> 
> Many books have been written about this and I have centered around the male pursuer side as that directly helps me. Where I was at a few months ago I had decided that I was willing to leave if things didn’t change. So there isn’t a persistent state of failure unless you’re willing to live like that. I wasn’t so I don’t.
> 
> For the OP’s buddy who trashed her husband, keep trying with him.


Well here's the thing -- you are assuming he still WANTS to have sex with her. After being rejected a lot, and then being told he was too OLD to have sex? Umm, would YOU be attracted to someone who told you that?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Well here's the thing -- you are assuming he still WANTS to have sex with her. After being rejected a lot, and then being told he was too OLD to have sex? Umm, would YOU be attracted to someone who told you that?


You’re right that is an assumption since before that unfortunate conversation he was.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> You’re right that is an assumption since before that unfortunate conversation he was.


Yeah but THAT discussion I bet put a HUGE damper on her attractiveness to him..

I know it would have that effect on me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Omg he's 54 and she's trying to tell him he's too old for frequent sex?
> 
> I can't laugh enough!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, she f'ed up pretty bad.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> She is 48 and he is 54
> together 24


I'm 49, my wife is 50 and we've been together for 24 years. Yet I can't imagine choosing to settle for once a week, especially around my age.



MaiChi said:


> A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week.


If my wife told me that, and or then turned the tap off, or cut it back notably. I would have no qualms in sharing sex with others to make up for the shortfall.



> She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week.


I'm not much younger than him and through the last 4 days I've shared sex with my wife on seven occasions (holidays are fun), plus solo masturbated on three occasions as well. And that's all natural without having testosterone injections, viagra or any other things that men who have sexual limitations use.

So unless he has medical limitations, or hates sharing sex with his wife. I can't imagine him, being grateful for getting to share sex with his wife at anything like once per week.



> Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried.


He's probably affording her the space that he feels she wants. Since she's made it clear to him that she finds sharing sex with him at whatever their frequency used to be, to be an imposition upon her.

If I were him, I would tell her that I have no desire to have sex with her more than she wants, yet in affording her that, I would also tell her that I will choose to share sex with others (post lockdown) to meet any shortfalls in my sex life, that her limitations impose.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, she f'ed up pretty bad.


Merry Christmas!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> Yeah but THAT discussion I bet put a HUGE damper on her attractiveness to him..
> 
> I know it would have that effect on me.


Yep most people don't want to have there partner have sex with them out of obligation, particularly loving ones. OP's fried basically burned the whole thing to the ground. She nuked it from orbit. Even if she does want to do it, I doubt he will ever believe her now.

That was a very cruel thing to say. The sad thing is his desire to have sex with her probably stemmed from a true desire to feel close to her, though he probably didn't articulate it well. She went with the old troupe that men are dogs idea, and that it was just getting off. 

She had no understanding of men's nature and probably didn't take the time to try to find out. This is a mistake a lot of men and women make in marriage. They assume that their partner's nature is exactly like their own, or worse they know it's different but have no empathy for that fact. People like that don't make great spouses. 

Wives should understand, for most healthy typical heterosexual men if they don't want to have sex with you anymore then your marriage is probably in big trouble. This is one of the primary ways men feel and express love. We are physical beings, it's in our nature. This is one of those if it's gotten that far, when we are done, we are done. We may even have sex again but the damage my be too great to overcome because in that back of our minds, one of the primary ways we express our love to our partners was rejected. 

If they could have worked on their communication they probably would have had a better marriage and more sex that they both enjoyed, but instead she chose to belittle him and tell him in no uncertain terms that she has no desire for him at all. It would be like the husband telling his wife she is ugly or something. Gonna be hard to come back from that.

Her growing to genuinely understand his desire and convincing him that she does is probably there only path back.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah well get your big boy pants on. I wanted my wife to initiate and once I figured out that would happen very rarely I got over it. I am having more sex with her now than probably since the year we got married. Both people need to get over their hang ups.
> 
> Sulking in the corner isn’t sexy.


Maybe he is done. Maybe she turned him off completely. I doubt this is the first time this has happened.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Maybe he is done. Maybe she turned him off completely. I doubt this is the first time this has happened.


I suspect so too. It will have happened a few times and got serious enough for it to be mentioned to the friend.

She was mean and cruel and now her husband doesn't want to sleep with her. She needs to apologise for her behaviour unreservedly (rather than trying to blame her crack-handed research on Google) and actually sit down and have a proper discussion with her husband about sex in marriage and what a mutually agreeable sex life looks like for them. Even then it may not work as it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe. I think people make their own luck. Once I applied myself to the problem it was solvable. Of course my wife came with some variation of reasons why although in my case it wasn’t that I was too old.
> 
> Many books have been written about this and I have centered around the male pursuer side as that directly helps me. Where I was at a few months ago I had decided that I was willing to leave if things didn’t change. So there isn’t a persistent state of failure unless you’re willing to live like that. I wasn’t so I don’t.
> 
> For the OP’s buddy who trashed her husband, keep trying with him.


Was your situation remotely similar to the OPs? It just sounds like you found out about responsive desire and persuer-distqncer dynamics. Did your wife rant at you about wanting sex too much and tell you you were too old?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

AGoodFlogging said:


> I suspect so too. It will have happened a few times and got serious enough for it to be mentioned to the friend.
> 
> She was mean and cruel and now her husband doesn't want to sleep with her. She needs to apologise for her behaviour unreservedly (rather than trying to blame her crack-handed research on Google) and actually sit down and have a proper discussion with her husband about sex in marriage and what a mutually agreeable sex life looks like for them. Even then it may not work as it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back.


It often comes up that it is very difficult for people to see the difference between not personally finding a person attractive and them having no right to be a sexual being.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Mr The Other said:


> It often comes up that it is very difficult for people to see the difference between not personally finding a person attractive and them having no right to be a sexual being.


That's usually because people who want to impose control on their partner' sexuality struggle with empathy. Either because they are naturally self-centred or because they are consumed with their own issues. A 48 year old woman may very well be perimenopausal and so may be entirely consumed with that issue.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe. I think people make their own luck. Once I applied myself to the problem it was solvable. Of course my wife came with some variation of reasons why although in my case it wasn’t that I was too old.
> 
> Many books have been written about this and I have centered around the male pursuer side as that directly helps me. Where I was at a few months ago I had decided that I was willing to leave if things didn’t change. So there isn’t a persistent state of failure unless you’re willing to live like that. I wasn’t so I don’t.
> 
> For the OP’s buddy who trashed her husband, keep trying with him.


No disrespect, but if I had to play some psychological game to get a woman to desire me in a sexual way, (or perhaps in your case placate me?), then it's 100% not worth it... For me, anyway...don't get me wrong, I am not knocking what you did, it just wouldn't be anything I would want...I would only want sex from a woman that is 1000% desiring and willing...I don't need or want any part of any "duty" type of sex, or something someone only did after a threat of divorce...But again, I am glad it all worked for you..

As for the OP...She handled it absolutely horribly....And as a guy her husbands age, there is a zero dropoff in desire or sexual function...So she doesn't really know what she's talking about anyway.. About the only thing I could say, is at this age, it's just not "uncontrollable"" as it may have been in my teens or 20's, to a point where I did some risky stuff and it worked against me in terms of life focus and goals at that time...The desire and performance hasn't changed, just that I have a better handle on it..

And I will say this as well, though....It's not as if she doesn't want as much sex(or maybe none at all?) that her feelings on it and where she stands should have no merit...If she no longer wants sex, then she shouldn't really be compelled to comply because he does.. Although obviously, that will create some obvious problems, and she basically dropped the guy on his head in the process.....It just goes back to what I mentioned in the first paragraph, regarding "duty" sex...I am against it...It may save a marriage, but I don't really see the point of it...I believe people(men or women) should not have to be compelled to comply here...If that creates problems, then that will have to be dealt with...I mean, how would someone feel if one person wanted to retire from working(providing they financially could), and the other person demanded they didn't-or threatened to divorce them if they did,?

A marriage contract shouldn't be something that's held over one's head for sex...Either they want it willingly or they don't....Let the chips fall where they may....02


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

AGoodFlogging said:


> That's usually because people who want to impose control on their partner' sexuality struggle with empathy. Either because they are naturally self-centred or because they are consumed with their own issues. A 48 year old woman may very well be perimenopausal and so may be entirely consumed with that issue.


Perhaps you bring an important point about the balance of what goes on between two people and maybe we need to say how we should manage each other's sexual and other needs. To me, the limitation on sex has always been that I mostly need my husband's mind and body to have what I want. It is not the same on my own. I need him to take part. He takes a lot of part now but what happens if he should change his mind? I know how it feels like when I have a need and his need is not so pronounced. When he had two jobs and was prone to tiredness he would say "If you can get it up and got on top then do but be gentle with me." meaning, if it was up to him this discussion would not be taking place

There seems a lot of people caught up in marriages that have no equality of sexual need, at least on occasion. It is worse of when such a situation develops many years into the marriage. What is the solution? I imagine it can strain the relationship and impact other parts of the marriage. 

For those of us who have not yet experienced the full on of it, what signs should we watch out for and what should we do about them?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i do not think a simple apology is enough.
He needs to see his wife be truthfully horny for him again, to WANT to have sex.

Maybe if she said something like "i seem to have lost my libido, and that is why i was denying you the sex you need. i am going to see my doctor about hormone replacement therapy, to see if i can get it fixed". Now THAT would get him to hope again. At least it would show she acknowledges that SHE has a problem, and is willing to try to do something about it...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah well get your big boy pants on. I wanted my wife to initiate and once I figured out that would happen very rarely I got over it. I am having more sex with her now than probably since the year we got married. Both people need to get over their hang ups.
> 
> Sulking in the corner isn’t sexy.


You need to substitute the terms he's hurt for the more accurate which is he's pissed.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah well get your big boy pants on. I wanted my wife to initiate and once I figured out that would happen very rarely I got over it. I am having more sex with her now than probably since the year we got married. Both people need to get over their hang ups.
> 
> Sulking in the corner isn’t sexy.


You're missing the point. The W keeps saying no, and added you're lucky if I let you once a week, and to justify myself I'll add husband you're too old anyway.

The whole thing to her is it's all about her and of course her preferences come before his, how dare he not think that.

This topic for the couple didn't just come up that day. She's been telling him no for a while and it's now front and center.

And it's still about her in her mind.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> For those of us who have not yet experienced the full on of it, what signs should we watch out for and what should we do about them?


I presume you are talking about a dead bedroom rather than menopause (I'm Aman so profess no expertise in the latter and my wife has yet to get to that stage). I have, however had a dead bedroom and come out the other side with my marriage intact.

The problem with dead bedrooms is that they have multiple possible causes so there aren't any universal "signs" of a problem. Instead I would recommend taking a look at the state of the union (marriage) and checking, in particular, how your communication is. Can you raise any concerns with your spouse honestly? Can you truly clear the air after a disagreement? Things like that. If you are not convinced you are in a good place perhaps seeks some support to improve your communication before you hit a bump and descend into a crisis.


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

I tell my husband I am not in the mood a lot because I don’t want sex with him anymore. I actually tell him if you still want to have sex that often, you better go find another woman, because I am done. I am being honest and I really mean it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

marcy* said:


> I tell my husband I am not in the mood a lot because I don’t want sex with him anymore. I actually tell him if you still want to have sex that often, you better go find another woman, because I am done. I am being honest and I really mean it.


Forgive the thread jack for a second..

Why don't you want sex with H anymore? Has this been for many years?


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Forgive the thread jack for a second..
> 
> Why don't you want sex with H anymore? Has this been for many years?


Because he hasn’t been a good partner at all . I lost respect for him years ago.He is an abuser, a bully who plays the victim all the time. I see no future with him.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

marcy* said:


> Because he hasn’t been a good partner at all . I lost respect for him years ago.He is an abuser, a bully who plays the victim all the time. I see no future with him.


Well, I can understand that. I hope things get better in your future. It sounds like it shouldn't be with present hubby.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

This situation has already resolved.
Mrs. Friend had Mr. Friend over the barrel, begging for sex, but that wasn't enough power for her. She decided to regulate when Mr. Friend was allowed to beg. Mr. Friend upset the game by cutting off her access. ( taking a page from her own book) Now Mrs. Friend has to beg for sex. Abuse of power led to revolt ending in a coup. 
Mrs. Friend is now looking for a path back to power with out triggering succession. Good luck with that one.

Some other questions that have come up. At what age does this start? I'm pretty sure Mrs. nail first dropped the "your too old . . . " line, around 30. This ties in wits some nastiness in her FOO. She was well aware of her mothers sex cut off. She has always treated my desire for life long sexual involvement as an aberration no matter how many people she finds who achieve it.

Signs it is starting, long talks with her mother? I don't know. I'd watch for lines like "didn't we just do that yesterday?" I ran across a 21 yo woman who asked how she could keep her BF from thinking about sex too often. you have to watch out for controlling tendencies and inherited scheduling.

What to do about it? Exactly what this man did. take that power back until it is only exercised in fairness. Don't accept a tyrant. (my personal power tactic is smart assery)


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Was your situation remotely similar to the OPs? It just sounds like you found out about responsive desire and persuer-distqncer dynamics. Did your wife rant at you about wanting sex too much and tell you you were too old?


Those exact excuses no. Similar ones, sure. Callous behavior and hurtful things said, yes.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> She is 48 and he is 54
> together 24


Dear Lord. That's all?

3 to 5 times a week or more is a more normal if healthy and have the time.

Which I bet they have the time, and health isn't mentioned as a reason.

Christ Almighty.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr The Other said:


> It often comes up that it is very difficult for people to see the difference between not personally finding a person attractive and them having no right to be a sexual being.


Very, very astute response.

👍👍👍


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

She certainly took the wrong approach. I guess she was trying to let him know it was too much for her and tried to find some research to back it up, but everyone is different, and seems like she should realize that. Still, if she doesn't always feel like having sex when he does, she needs to find some nicer way of letting him know. Now she's really got herself in a fix. She'll be afraid to say no from now on, which isn't right.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She certainly took the wrong approach. I guess she was trying to let him know it was too much for her and tried to find some research to back it up, but everyone is different, and seems like she should realize that. Still, if she doesn't always feel like having sex when he does, she needs to find some nicer way of letting him know. Now she's really got herself in a fix. She'll be afraid to say no from now on, which isn't right.


And it sure seems like SHE doesn't enjoy being told No either...which I find interesting, and TELLING.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

marcy* said:


> I tell my husband I am not in the mood a lot because I don’t want sex with him anymore. I actually tell him if you still want to have sex that often, you better go find another woman, because I am done. I am being honest and I really mean it.


Since I won't have an affair that would be my sign to divorce, which is what I assume you want.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

marcy* said:


> Because he hasn’t been a good partner at all . I lost respect for him years ago.He is an abuser, a bully who plays the victim all the time. I see no future with him.


Why don't you divorce him?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> And it sure seems like SHE doesn't enjoy being told No either...which I find interesting, and TELLING.


I've seen that before with friends I know well. They reach a stalemate is what happens. Like a friend of mine, he's a weirdo, frankly, and likes more to watch her which does her no good, so when they were younger, they had lots of disagreements and sleeping on couches, and she's the more sexual of the two, though, so it bugged her more than him if he refused to do anything. People can really get into some weird situations!!

I do sympathize. Even though she doesn't want to do it every single time on HIS schedule, doesn't mean she doesn't want to do it at all. They need to communicate and compromise and have signals or something.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

I can't help but wonder how much resentment has to build up for this guy to turn away sex from his wife who (by the sounds of it) is throwing it at him. Decades, the entire marriage, the last few years? Or was it her telling him he should be thankful for whatever she gives out? 

I also noticed OP mentioned she is trying to get forgiveness. Be interesting to know what the friend's definition of 'forgiveness' in this situation looks like.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

She wounded his pride.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I do sympathize. Even though she doesn't want to do it every single time on HIS schedule,* doesn't mean she doesn't want to do it at all. *They need to communicate and compromise and have signals or something.


It's entirely possible that she actually doesn't really want to have sex with him, but rather than see him moping around and becoming passive aggressive, she'll hold her nose and offer some up so he doesn't continue with his "protest" and some degree of normalcy can return to the house....Or perhaps she may be afraid if she completely shuts down, he walks and she doesn't want to start over at a later stage of life......

In my view, people either want sex or they don't....That doesn't mean 3x/day marathon stuff all the time, but the "anniversary/ V day" BJ or the once every few months after a couple of glasses of wine stuff is probably only done for some type of sense of obligation or duty,,,,as I suspect here...For some people that gets them by, I suppose, but I think the original intent of sex is lost at that point....


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She wounded his pride.


Nah she is just selfish, and he is tried of it.

Maybe he has finally excepted that she is just not that into him. Why should he stick around.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Of course we're just hearing this from someone else, but it sounds like he's wanting to have it several times a week and that is a lot for people who have been together for a while and not so much for young lovers and Honeymooners. And of course no word if they are busy with children or all that stuff. But if she really doesn't want to have sex anymore then I would think she'd be pretty happy about this turn of events and she's not. Also since we're hearing this from a third party, we don't really know how she actually brought this up to him and if it's as bad as it sounds like it is.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@MaiChi,

The thing she needs to create in herself is empathy. And maybe by doing so, and showing it to him, along with the the admiration, fondness, and/or other value she feels for him (if any), then maybe he’ll find some empathy for her. And then maybe they can find some way to close this gap between them.

Maybe they’d get something out the 5 Love Languages book.

They both should be aware they are at risk of irreparably harming their marriage. Much can go wrong in how they handle this.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AndStilliRise said:


> She's using age as an excuse.


It's not just an excuse. It's also a signal that she put up with a "burden" for years, expecting that she'd see her "chores" reduced over time. When they didn't, she started feeling resentment.

Some just don't understand there are consequences to their actions.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Of course we're just hearing this from someone else, but it sounds like he's wanting to have it several times a week and that is a lot for people who have been together for a while and not so much for young livers and Honeymooners.


It's only a lot for people who have lost sexual desire for their sexual partners, don't enjoy sex with them, have sexual disfunction, or resent their sexual partners.

Otherwise several times a week isn't exceptional for people of their age who still have a sex drive, enjoy the experience of sex and still want to share sex with their sexual partners.

I was at an Infants/Primary School reunion a few years ago (we were all in our mid 40s), and while sitting with a group of women and one man all of whom I had gone to school with way back when. The other man led our conversation to saying that sex is dead in marriage and as a consequence of "our age" is pretty dead as well. Yet what he claimed was surprising to our group of former school friends. All of us told him, that we shared an enormous amount of sex with our spouses (all of us had been married for many years). We also told him we still enjoy sex, have always enjoyed it as adults and frequently find the time to share sex with our partners, because we want it.

What he thought was normal wasn't our normal sexual experience, and what was normal for us wasn't normal for him. His wife had pretty much turned the tap off completely after they had some kids early on, and he accepted that based on the idea that this is what happens in marriage. Yet there he was with a few long time married women telling him, that they frequently have sex because they really enjoyed it and their desire for that pleasure was high.

There was no talk of duty, obligation or burden, it was all about feeling pleasure, and how sharing that pleasure helped to maintain the connection we enjoyed with our sexual partners.

My wife and I have been together for over 24 years, and as always so far we share a lot of sex together, and it's rich and varied with us both initiating. To the point that (excepting hospital stays, or being apart) our absolute minimum is 4x a week (which isn't often), while 6x a week is the usual base standard for us. Yet when we have holidays and shared days off, it is normal for us to frequently share sex at 2-3x a day. So there are still different times like right now, when we enjoy sharing sex at 9-14x a week and sometimes more.

The husband of the OP's friend, isn't dead yet so it's not unreasonable for him to not want to settle for a few scraps from his wife.



> And of course no word if they are busy with children or all that stuff.


I've been married twice with children generated from both marriages, yet in both marriages sex didn't slow down through pregnancies, and except for having to wait for stitches to heal in one instance, sex didn't slow down after those childbirths and onwards.

Outside of them, I've been with a few other pregnant women, and other women with young and older children, yet they were all very keen for lots of sex as well. So kids needn't dampen sexual desire.

Likewise and further with my now wife, she has had breast cancer, and been hit by a speeding car as a pedestrian with considerable injuries requiring multiple surgeries. Plus plenty of other life challenges. We've raised kids together, we have also dealt with a child with severe health problems for 2 years now. We've moved house many times through our time together.

We've experienced redundancy and the challenge of it, while we've also lived most of our time far from our families of origin. We both have full-time careers, have always been busy not just with work, we have varied interests and pursuits. Yet excepting the odd stay in hospital and sometimes being apart from each other for work, we have always shared a rich and very frequent sex life together.

So being busy with children and more, isn't really what makes married couples stop having sex with each other. One can be busy and still find plenty of time to bang each other frequently, if that is what all involved want to do.

A lack of desire, resentment, being bored, being mediocre at sex and or a loss of attraction are what see an end to a decent sex life.

That said if sexual relationships reach their use by date, I think it's perfectly fine for such things to come to an end.

Yet if a spouse wants to unilaterally turn the sex tap off or strangle it notably, yet remain married. I think it is perfectly decent behaviour for the other spouse to have lots of sex with others either openly or discreetly going forward.



> But if she really doesn't want to have sex anymore then I would think she'd be pretty happy about this turn of events and she's not.


If the OPs friend wants less sex than they share, she should feel free to express that and not feel pressured to share more. That said she should appreciate that if he wants more than what she is willing to share, he would do well to feel free to seek sex with others to satiate his sexual desires.



> Also since we're hearing this from a third party, we don't really know how she actually brought this up to him and if it's as bad as it sounds like it is.


Yep.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> She is 48 and he is 54
> together 24


Im 48 and wife 52, together 24, we are intimate 4-5 days a week many times twice a day. Once a week i would feel rejected and emotionally disconnected from my wife. My wife even initiates when dealing with a kidney stone...because she wants to, not because i want to with her hurting.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> It's not just an excuse. It's also a signal that she put up with a "burden" for years, expecting that she'd see her "chores" reduced over time. When they didn't, she started feeling resentment.
> 
> Some just don't understand there are consequences to their actions.


But if that's true I mean why should he be the only one that gets to be happy. They need to compromise.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

marcy* said:


> Because he hasn’t been a good partner at all . I lost respect for him years ago.He is an abuser, a bully who plays the victim all the time. I see no future with him.


It sounds like the old undiagnosed NPD which gives the wife justification to do anything she pleases. It’s rampant these days. Just ask the “survivors” on FB and Instagram woman groups.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But if that's true I mean why should he be the only one that gets to be happy. They need to compromise.


What makes you think he is happy? He's as sexless as she is. He's as soon to be ex as she is. He got told no first. 
I know I said she is begging for sex, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that that will stop the second he gives in. 
He is only maintaining a semblance of power by removing her comfort. Her power was removed when he discovered that she was not going to offer any more carrot.
I refuse to feel sorry for her, she demanded less sex, and he delivered.
The gate keeper only holds power if they open the gate.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> It sounds like the old undiagnosed NPD which gives the wife justification to do anything she pleases. It’s rampant these days. Just ask the “survivors” on FB and Instagram woman groups.


@RebuildingMe,

Is that meant to be supportive of @marcy* and the what she expressed about her situation, or an attempt to invalidate her? Not sure what you meant by use of quotes and some of the phrasing.


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

RebuildingMe said:


> It sounds like the old undiagnosed NPD which gives the wife justification to do anything she pleases. It’s rampant these days. Just ask the “survivors” on FB and Instagram woman groups.


You think my husband is the “survivor”?! Not even close, but that’s how he sees himself, a victim. It’s hard to make love to him after he fights and says,” leave the house, it’s my house, and I rather end up homeless than pay you child support. “ and many other offensive words.
In the morning he wanted sex, when only three days ago he screamed and yelled at me, asked for divorce( every time we fight actually) because didn’t get a present. First time ever, while in 17 years together I never got a present from him for Christmas. So you think I should give him what he wants, whenever he wants no matter how he behaves with me?


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Since I won't have an affair that would be my sign to divorce, which is what I assume you want.


Yes, I am not even against divorce. I am working on it. Saving money since I doubt he will pay child support.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Personal said:


> It's only a lot for people who have lost sexual desire for their sexual partners, don't enjoy sex with them, have sexual disfunction, or resent their sexual partners.
> 
> Otherwise several times a week isn't exceptional for people of their age who still have a sex drive, enjoy the experience of sex and still want to share sex with their sexual partners.
> 
> ...





marcy* said:


> Yes, I am not even against divorce. I am working on it. Saving money since I doubt he will pay child support.


If you are in the US, he will pay child support. It doesn't come to you from him. The state takes it out of his paycheck and then gives it to you, and that would include if he was jailed for refusing to pay child support!


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If you are in the US, he will pay child support. It doesn't come to you from him. The state takes it out of his paycheck and then gives it to you, and that would include if he was jailed for refusing to pay child support!


I know but he has mentioned many times that he rather ends up homeless than pay me. If I divorve him he has to pay over $1500 a month, unless we make custody arrangments, but it’s hard since he works long hours and weekends. So I have to be prepared for any situation.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

marcy* said:


> You think my husband is the “survivor”?! Not even close, but that’s how he sees himself, a victim. It’s hard to make love to him after he fights and says,” leave the house, it’s my house, and I rather end up homeless than pay you child support. “ and many other offensive words.
> In the morning he wanted sex, when only three days ago he screamed and yelled at me, asked for divorce( every time we fight actually) because didn’t get a present. First time ever, while in 17 years together I never got a present from him for Christmas. So you think I should give him what he wants, whenever he wants no matter how he behaves with me?


No, I don’t think he is a survivor. I don’t think you are one either considering you are still in the marriage. I hope you are working your way out. I took me three years for me to save enough to work my way out. As far as “bully” and “victim”, those sound like internet undiagnosed NPD hate groups terms. Best to stay away from that garbage. Also, I think this is a total T/J so my apologies to OP.


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

RebuildingMe said:


> No, I don’t think he is a survivor. I don’t think you are one either considering you are still in the marriage. I hope you are working your way out. I took me three years for me to save enough to work my way out. As far as “bully” and “victim”, those sound like internet undiagnosed NPD hate groups terms. Best to stay away from that garbage. Also, I think this is a total T/J so my apologies to OP.


This is the only group I am on. Not aware of those groups, but thanks.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

marcy* said:


> I know but he has mentioned many times that he rather ends up homeless than pay me. If I divorve him he has to pay over $1500 a month, unless we make custody arrangments, but it’s hard since he works long hours and weekends. So I have to be prepared for any situation.


Writing you a DM if possible.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If you are in the US, he will pay child support. It doesn't come to you from him. The state takes it out of his paycheck and then gives it to you, and that would include if he was jailed for refusing to pay child support!


Not exactly...my first husband owes me $60k in back child support, and hasn't paid a penny in over 10 years...he has the flexibility and works for friends (who used to be MY friends as well) who will pay him off the books for his work (construction), and the state REFUSES to send him back to court because they can't "verify his address" - which they do by sending a card to his address where HE gets to reply whether he lives there or not. I still have a case against him, but they told me that until his SS# shows up as being employed, then they can't do anything.

So there ARE ways, for exes who are determined enough to avoid it.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Not exactly...my first husband owes me $60k in back child support, and hasn't paid a penny in over 10 years...he has the flexibility and works for friends (who used to be MY friends as well) who will pay him off the books for his work (construction), and the state REFUSES to send him back to court because they can't "verify his address" - which they do by sending a card to his address where HE gets to reply whether he lives there or not. I still have a case against him, but they told me that until his SS# shows up as being employed, then they can't do anything.
> 
> So there ARE ways, for exes who are determined enough to avoid it.


Can't you hire a PI to get proof that he is in fact living at address A, and also WORKING for these people?
I bet you can get THEM in a world of hurt with the IRS if they are paying him off the books....
It would be worth it just for the karma....
I CERTAINLY hope that your kids with this man KNOW that he is doing this and hopefully have NO relationship with him. What an awful example of being a man....
If HE isn't paying an child support, then I hope HE has no visitation with them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Not exactly...my first husband owes me $60k in back child support, and hasn't paid a penny in over 10 years...he has the flexibility and works for friends (who used to be MY friends as well) who will pay him off the books for his work (construction), and the state REFUSES to send him back to court because they can't "verify his address" - which they do by sending a card to his address where HE gets to reply whether he lives there or not. I still have a case against him, but they told me that until his SS# shows up as being employed, then they can't do anything.
> 
> So there ARE ways, for exes who are determined enough to avoid it.


You should report him to the IRS for tax evasion. I don't see why you also couldn't get evidence that he's working by using a private investigator or something and it would be worth it.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

At some point a thread has to be brought back to it's original topic. I guess. I went back to the original post and found this gem that I missed first time through.


MaiChi said:


> She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


So with buying gifts, that kind of changes the color of his reaction.
It's possible he had bought the gifts before the upsetting conversation, and just presented them because he had no other use for them.
It's also possible that the gifts are saying, Hey, I think our sexual relationship is gone but I still like giving you gifts ( and the other emotional /romantic parts of the relationship)

Reading on another topic yesterday and I read where a pshrink was chastised for using shame as a behavior modification tool. the chastising pshrink said that that was unethical. When applied to this thread Mrs. Friend was unethical in trying to shame Mr. Friend into altering his sexual schedule to match her desire. My assumption is that she wants to save the marriage (more likely with the presence of presents) but with a sexual frequency of her choice. To achieve that without getting the kind of negative reaction she got she will need to choose a more ethical path than shaming.


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> Not exactly...my first husband owes me $60k in back child support, and hasn't paid a penny in over 10 years...he has the flexibility and works for friends (who used to be MY friends as well) who will pay him off the books for his work (construction), and the state REFUSES to send him back to court because they can't "verify his address" - which they do by sending a card to his address where HE gets to reply whether he lives there or not. I still have a case against him, but they told me that until his SS# shows up as being employed, then they can't do anything.
> 
> So there ARE ways, for exes who are determined enough to avoid it.


That’s what I think my hubby is going to do. He has friends who have done the same thing has your ex. That’s why I need to save money, before I take the big step.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

A wife is felt loved by her husband when he provides for her needs and is emotionally supportive and present for her. A husband is felt loved by his wife when she has sex with him. It is as simple as that I think.

This woman basically told her husband she no longer loves him through her actions (or lack thereof).


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Not exactly...my first husband owes me $60k in back child support, and hasn't paid a penny in over 10 years...he has the flexibility and works for friends (who used to be MY friends as well) who will pay him off the books for his work (construction), and the state REFUSES to send him back to court because they can't "verify his address" - which they do by sending a card to his address where HE gets to reply whether he lives there or not. I still have a case against him, but they told me that until his SS# shows up as being employed, then they can't do anything.
> 
> So there ARE ways, for exes who are determined enough to avoid it.


You could file your own contempt case with the court. Either with an attorney, or on your own.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

As far as the OP goes, I don't really understand why after all that time he hasn't figured out the ins and outs of his woman. What to say and how to act in order to get her aroused. To the point she had to tell him off because he was trying to get sex like a 3 year old trying to get a cookie before dinner. Nothing more attractive than that in a 54 year old guy. 

What should she do? Take him out for the early bird special and get him an AARP membership to apologise. Him getting over his sensitivity will probably do wonders toward her wanting to have more sex with him.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

gaius said:


> Take him out for the early bird special and get him an AARP membership to apologise.


This would do it for me especially if I could get sausage and bacon with my special and that black diner coffee. If I hadn’t just stepped off the scale this morning I’d be heading for Denny’s now.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Livvie said:


> You could file your own contempt case with the court. Either with an attorney, or on your own.


From what they told me, they cannot file until he can be served...and he can't be served until they have confirmed his address. And they can't confirm his address unless he responds to the confirmation inquiry they sent out...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Hire a pi to find out where he's living. They can follow him home from work. does he not have any credit cards that they're able to check to see where the bills go to or public utilities? I think you're going to have to hire someone yourself to do this if the entity isn't doing it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Please stop threadjacking.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

marcy* said:


> I tell my husband I am not in the mood a lot because I don’t want sex with him anymore. I actually tell him if you still want to have sex that often, you better go find another woman, because I am done. I am being honest and I really mean it.


So why is it still worth being in that marriage? You seem to be saying you want sex but not with him. I am puzzled.
I have seen your answers and I agree with them. 

What happens if you let him have the children and both keep working but you both agree to live nearby? That way the children do not experience the foolishness of lost family income but they come and go as they wish between parents. Why does he have to pay you child support when he can just have 50% child rearing. You just share days in the week equally. Is that workable or not?


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> @MaiChi,
> 
> The thing she needs to create in herself is empathy. And maybe by doing so, and showing it to him, along with the the admiration, fondness, and/or other value she feels for him (if any), then maybe he’ll find some empathy for her. And then maybe they can find some way to close this gap between them.
> 
> ...


I understand that he is not giving in at all but he is not showing any anger against her either. (I asked her). She has developed into fear for her marriage now. He shows no interest. In her own words, he has not touched her since. She spoke to him and apologised and he accepted her apology but when she tried to have sex he said he prefers it if they do not. He will not hug her but he talks normally to her. She asked him what he wants her to do and he could not think of anything in particular. She is asking if my husband can go and talk to him. (they are good friends). I told my husband and he says 
"You cannot go to another man and ask him why he is not having sex with his wife. Men do not do that." case closed

The lockdown is being increased her in UK and there seems a huge increase of domestic and marital matters resulting from lockdowns. Reports are there for all t read.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I think they both need to grow up.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

gaius said:


> As far as the OP goes, I don't really understand why after all that time he hasn't figured out the ins and outs of his woman. What to say and how to act in order to get her aroused. To the point she had to tell him off because he was trying to get sex like a 3 year old trying to get a cookie before dinner. Nothing more attractive than that in a 54 year old guy.


You are fairly naive if you think THAT is the issue here...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MaiChi said:


> I understand that he is not giving in at all but he is not showing any anger against her either. (I asked her). She has developed into fear for her marriage now. He shows no interest. In her own words, he has not touched her since. She spoke to him and apologised and he accepted her apology but when she tried to have sex he said he prefers it if they do not. He will not hug her but he talks normally to her. She asked him what he wants her to do and he could not think of anything in particular. She is asking if my husband can go and talk to him. (they are good friends). I told my husband and he says
> "You cannot go to another man and ask him why he is not having sex with his wife. Men do not do that." case closed
> 
> The lockdown is being increased her in UK and there seems a huge increase of domestic and marital matters resulting from lockdowns. Reports are there for all t read.


Your husband is right - this isn't something that friends should try to sort out for another couple. It won't work anyway.

She is right to be fearful for her marriage now...it sounds like she's broken something, or caused her husband to question whether she cares about him at all. 

Being sorry doesn't really help if you seriously damage your bond in that way.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week.


He thought he had a romantic relationship and she succinctly disabused him of that notion. Since she has tried so many things to get him interested, it looks like the only option is to plead her ignorance on sexuality and her misguided attempt to learn by utilizing google. She has hurt him to his very core and it will take a lot of patience and demonstrating her desire for him in order for him to want to be intimate with her. I wish her good luck.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> I understand that he is not giving in at all but he is not showing any anger against her either. (I asked her). She has developed into fear for her marriage now. He shows no interest. In her own words, he has not touched her since. She spoke to him and apologised and he accepted her apology but when she tried to have sex he said he prefers it if they do not. He will not hug her but he talks normally to her. She asked him what he wants her to do and he could not think of anything in particular. She is asking if my husband can go and talk to him. (they are good friends). I told my husband and he says
> "You cannot go to another man and ask him why he is not having sex with his wife. Men do not do that." case closed
> 
> The lockdown is being increased her in UK and there seems a huge increase of domestic and marital matters resulting from lockdowns. Reports are there for all t read.


Two things:

1) please respect your husband's views on this as he is absolutely right to not want to get involved. I would be horrified if a male friend tried to start a conversation about sexual problems in my marriage that I was completely unaware he knew about.

2) sounds like her behaviour has caused him to check out or at least he doesn't feel like he trusts her enough to patch this up yet and may indeed be punishing her by withholding. I'd say that it isn't a very constructive or healthy way of dealing with the situation, but she did bring this on herself. Sounds to me like she wants this all to snap back to normal because she has apologised. This isn't a short game here and she needs to be consistent in showing that she is sorry, she cares and she wants a romantic and sexual relationship with him. Even then it may not be enough and if his just going to continue to stonewall her then perhaps the marriage is over. Have they considered some form of counselling? It is clear they need help to improve their communication.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> From what they told me, they cannot file until he can be served...and he can't be served until they have confirmed his address. And they can't confirm his address unless he responds to the confirmation inquiry they sent out...


Yes, that's true. The state can't serve him if they don't have a good address for him. 

But I said if you are frustrated with that and think YOU can find him to get him served, YOU can begin your own contempt action against him and you can have him served with it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Yes, that's true. The state can't serve him if they don't have a good address for him.
> 
> But I said if you are frustrated with that and think YOU can find him to get him served, YOU can begin your own contempt action against him and you can have him served with it.


I know I keep continuing this thread jack, but I want to make sure to respond to this!

About 6 years ago, I looked into everything I could afford to do that had a reasonable chance of success - Massachusetts is a difficult state to collect child support from when you are out-of-state, and they don't force the parent to prove they are physically unable to work, so they wouldn't find him in contempt for it if he's not working. To the IRS up there (which is the agency that handles CS in Mass), they've done enough by suspending his license - which means NOTHING to him, because he has a lifetime suspension anyway for being a repeat drunk driver!

Even IF I paid thousands of dollars to get him back into court, all he has to do is pay for a bit and start the process all over again - without them being willing to put him in jail (which they say is counterintuitive because "he can't work if he's in jail") (like, REALLY??), he has NO motivation to comply with the court order long-term.

Maybe things have changed in the past 6 years...?? But it was SO frustrating and draining the first time, I don't know if I care to go through all that again!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I know I keep continuing this thread jack, but I want to make sure to respond to this!
> 
> About 6 years ago, I looked into everything I could afford to do that had a reasonable chance of success - Massachusetts is a difficult state to collect child support from when you are out-of-state, and they don't force the parent to prove they are physically unable to work, so they wouldn't find him in contempt for it if he's not working. To the IRS up there (which is the agency that handles CS in Mass), they've done enough by suspending his license - which means NOTHING to him, because he has a lifetime suspension anyway for being a repeat drunk driver!
> 
> ...


Maybe have a quick consult with a family law attorney where you are. I'm in a nearby New England state. Cases here can and do end up with jail time. But you really do have to serve the person with the motion in hand, so you have to know how to locate them.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

He may have been close to the point of no return when this happened, and now she has pushed him past it. I think his next step will be to file for divorce, but he may take a while to mentally and emotionally process everything first.


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## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I know I keep continuing this thread jack, but I want to make sure to respond to this!
> 
> About 6 years ago, I looked into everything I could afford to do that had a reasonable chance of success - Massachusetts is a difficult state to collect child support from when you are out-of-state, and they don't force the parent to prove they are physically unable to work, so they wouldn't find him in contempt for it if he's not working. To the IRS up there (which is the agency that handles CS in Mass), they've done enough by suspending his license - which means NOTHING to him, because he has a lifetime suspension anyway for being a repeat drunk driver!
> 
> ...


Deadbeat Fathers need to be taken more seriously by society in general, and especially by the courts and child welfare agencies.

I did my part to raise my 4 kids and not subject them to insecurity and possible poverty. Men need to man up and take responsibilty for all the children they conceived in lust. Even a little child support is better than none at all.

I'm sorry for you, your kid(s), and sad that you are owed back child support that you may never collect.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

Going back to the original topic, has your friend considered that her very harsh words have raised doubts in his mind about his sexual performance at a time when he is approaching an age that is already challenging to a man. Has she caused him to doubt himself and that the reason he does not want is because of fear of failure when having sex? How would she feel if he had turned around and said she was getting past her prime, was getting a bit chunky and droopy, and should be grateful for any bone he may toss her?

A lot, and I mean a lot, of flattery from his wife may help here and a realisation that she is not the only pebble on the beach.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah well get your big boy pants on. I wanted my wife to initiate and once I figured out that would happen very rarely I got over it. I am having more sex with her now than probably since the year we got married. Both people need to get over their hang ups.
> 
> Sulking in the corner isn’t sexy.


I dont see it as sulking he just bought her some expensive gifts, I see it as the final nail in the coffin for him.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

She could ask him to explain what he is thinking, and why he is doing what he is doing, and where he sees this headed or wants this to go.

She could ask him several specific yes/no questions, if he is being non-communicative. Including does he want the marriage to end, is he withholding purposefully, has he been feeling hurt by her most recent behavior, and from the rejections before?

Is she avoiding asking him directly about his internal state?

I can understand him being hurt, but not so hurt he cannot use words.

He may be purposefully be trying to teach her what it’s like to be rejected. He may be hurt, and this is all he wills himself to be right now. He may be passive aggressively punishing her, consciously or not.

I can understand frustration with her view/rationalization about age and sex, but I don’t think I’d receive it as a blow to my ego. I know exactly how old I am, (his age btw), and I know people often attempt to rationalize what they want to do or not do with “data” or appeals to norms or over generalizations.

ETA: She may eventually need to express what her boundaries/limits are here, and any concerns she may have about the current behaviors adding damage to the relationship, if he is being non-communicative and cold towards her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> No disrespect, but if I had to play some psychological game to get a woman to desire me in a sexual way, (or perhaps in your case placate me?), then it's 100% not worth it... For me, anyway...don't get me wrong, I am not knocking what you did, it just wouldn't be anything I would want...I would only want sex from a woman that is 1000% desiring and willing...I don't need or want any part of any "duty" type of sex, or something someone only did after a threat of divorce...But again, I am glad it all worked for you..
> 
> As for the OP...She handled it absolutely horribly....And as a guy her husbands age, there is a zero dropoff in desire or sexual function...So she doesn't really know what she's talking about anyway.. About the only thing I could say, is at this age, it's just not "uncontrollable"" as it may have been in my teens or 20's, to a point where I did some risky stuff and it worked against me in terms of life focus and goals at that time...The desire and performance hasn't changed, just that I have a better handle on it..
> 
> ...


There is a difference between reluctant duty sex and having sex because you love your spouse even though you may not feel like it at the time.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> She could ask him to explain what he is thinking, and why he is doing what he is doing, and where he sees this headed or wants this to go.
> 
> She could ask him several specific yes/no questions, if he is being non-communicative. Including does he want the marriage to end, is he withholding purposefully, has he been feeling hurt by her most recent behavior, and from the rejections before?
> 
> ...


The thing is that this may have been just one rejection of many, so for him it was just the last straw.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> The thing is that this may have been just one rejection of many, so for him it was just the last straw.


Yes, it seems very likely there is much more to it than one rejection. More than just the one unilateral and bleak policy change that defined what his expectations should be going forward given his age.

He’s not made it clear if it was the last straw for him or not, but you’re right that it may be. He might not know yet himself. Clearly, he is willing to let her fear that it was.

Still, he can choose to communicate clearly and directly with words about this. And she can too. Whether they do or not anytime soon may determine what is possible.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> I understand that he is not giving in at all but he is not showing any anger against her either. (I asked her). She has developed into fear for her marriage now. He shows no interest. In her own words, he has not touched her since. She spoke to him and apologised and he accepted her apology but when she tried to have sex he said he prefers it if they do not. He will not hug her but he talks normally to her. She asked him what he wants her to do and he could not think of anything in particular. She is asking if my husband can go and talk to him. (they are good friends). I told my husband and he says
> "You cannot go to another man and ask him why he is not having sex with his wife. Men do not do that." case closed
> 
> The lockdown is being increased her in UK and there seems a huge increase of domestic and marital matters resulting from lockdowns. Reports are there for all t read.


I think he feels very hurt, I also think he has excepted that she is not attracted to him and in her mind that is of no concern and has nothing to do with the marriage. Since for most men that is one of the primary reasons and benefits/enjoyment of the marriage that is a terrible blow. Many men would assume the marriage is over at that point. It would be like her never telling him she loved him again, and telling him to quit bugging her about it. Yes it is that important. 

Your husband is right not to get involved. Let me ask you if your husband stopped telling you he loved you would you want her husband to talk to him about it? Does that make sense?

This is are really grave wound in the marriage and it's going to take a lot to fix it. Because when she makes advances he doesn't believe that she really want to do it, only that she is trying to save her ass. Not attractive. In his mind it's time to move on.

I can't state this any more plainly, this is a very important idea for the wife's out there reading. You should be very happy that your husband pursues you like a young man. Even if he is a **** about it. Help him to understand how he makes you feel if he isn't thoughtful about it, but don't dismiss that or him. His desire for you is him trying to be close to you. Just like you want to have long talks so you "know" him and feel close. This is exactly how sex works for most men. Which is why trying new things an being brave and showing your sexual side to your husband will make him feel close because you are exposing a side of yourself that not everyone sees. It's about being vulnerable in the same way intimate communication is. What this women did was the equivalent having something important that you want to wanting to run and tell you husband how bad you feel about it, or how you need to talk to him and your husband telling you "quit whining, what do you always have to bother me with this stuff." Yes it's like that. And usually by the time it gets to this point, it's years of that. She would have done better to say, "I feel unattractive, I feel like I need a shower, I am exhausted" (but that can be all time) or at worst, "I want it but our sex isn't good enough". That would have been painful but they could have gotten better. Men understand about working to be better and problem solving.

Just like if you had spent years trying to communicate with your husband on an emotional level only to have him dismiss you and scoff, to be dismissive at the outreach, eventually lots of women are just done. So it probably is with this man and most men would feel the same. Men should pay attention too, don't dismiss your wife when she is trying to connect with you. She will probably use emotional communication. Suck it up and talk. 

Those two paragraphs right there is what your friend needs to understand. Her only chance is her her understanding it and getting him to trust that she understands it. Lots of men cheat at this point, he hasn't he has just detached. That tells me they still have a chance, but this needs to be her priority. Understanding his nature and what it really is she did.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> Still, he can choose to communicate clearly and directly with words about this. And she can too. Whether they do or not anytime soon may determine what is possible.


Sounds like he did that before and she told him in so many words to **** off.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> There is a difference between reluctant duty sex and having sex because you love your spouse even though you may not feel like it at the time.


That is clearly duty sex....If you don't feel like it, then why do it? I don['t feel like raking the lawn and cleaning the gutters, but I do it because it's my duty as a responsible homeowner...Defeats the entire principle of a sexual relationship, IMO....I'd never want that under any circumstances,, i've never been that hard up to ever want to accept that..

If you see it to be different, then I don't know what to tell you, I am glad it works for you....(shrug)


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

PieceOfSky said:


> Still, he can choose to communicate clearly and directly with words about this. And she can too. Whether they do or not anytime soon may determine what is possible.


Actions speak louder than words in this case.....She's communicating to him with a bullhorn....and he's heard all he wants/needs to hear, hence his reaction...

No one wants to have this conversation....No one wants to ask or coerce a wife or husband to have sex with them....or worse....give an ultimatum about it.......What good does that do? So lets say she decides to give in and start having sex with him...He's left with the feeling that it was only accomplished by way of a gun to the head..

I can't think of a more effective boner killer than that, frankly....


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm wondering how many folks your friend has discussed this with? 
Her horrible rejection--she had actually poorly 'researched' and had 'facts' to back up her argument. Feelings must not even be in her vocabulary. Her relationship will never be the same--lack of trust, connection, caring. IMO she has to do the work an cheating spouse would do to restore and this will take a long, long time. Her action will never be forgotten, but she make attempt to look for forgiveness.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1) please respect your husband's views on this as he is absolutely right to not want to get involved. I would be horrified if a male friend tried to start a conversation about sexual problems in my marriage that I was completely unaware he knew about.
> 
> 2) sounds like her behaviour has caused him to check out or at least he doesn't feel like he trusts her enough to patch this up yet and may indeed be punishing her by withholding. I'd say that it isn't a very constructive or healthy way of dealing with the situation, but she did bring this on herself. Sounds to me like she wants this all to snap back to normal because she has apologised. This isn't a short game here and she needs to be consistent in showing that she is sorry, she cares and she wants a romantic and sexual relationship with him. Even then it may not be enough and if his just going to continue to stonewall her then perhaps the marriage is over. Have they considered some form of counselling? It is clear they need help to improve their communication.


I suggested counselling the very first day she brought the matter up but she is unsure how to ask him.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> Yes, it seems very likely there is much more to it than one rejection. More than just the one unilateral and bleak policy change that defined what his expectations should be going forward given his age.
> 
> He’s not made it clear if it was the last straw for him or not, but you’re right that it may be. He might not know yet himself. Clearly, he is willing to let her fear that it was.
> 
> Still, he can choose to communicate clearly and directly with words about this. And she can too. Whether they do or not anytime soon may determine what is possible.


How is this going to happen? Its just her side of story and she is pushing us to intervene. My husband has already said NO and I said she should find a way to counselling. It means we are not going to talk to the husband directly about it. So she need to sort it out herself. She is failing.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> I'm wondering how many folks your friend has discussed this with?
> Her horrible rejection--she had actually poorly 'researched' and had 'facts' to back up her argument. Feelings must not even be in her vocabulary. Her relationship will never be the same--lack of trust, connection, caring. IMO she has to do the work an cheating spouse would do to restore and this will take a long, long time. Her action will never be forgotten, but she make attempt to look for forgiveness.


She blames lockdown for him wanting sex so much. 
I asked why she does not want it as much and she says its too much. He wants too much. 
How much is too much and why is it too much?

I do not know if she has told others. She seems upset about the situation, and upset that he is not accepting that she apologised. But she said he accepted her apology. I am not sure now what she expects me to do and I do not want to sound rude.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Tell her to man up, admit she was wrong to her husband, tell him she is truly sorry for insulting him, and then ask could they go to counseling to try and work on all of this? Just be up front with the guy for once and see what he says.
SHE should be prepared for him to say no.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> How is this going to happen? Its just her side of story and she is pushing us to intervene. My husband has already said NO and I said she should find a way to counselling. It means we are not going to talk to the husband directly about it. So she need to sort it out herself. She is failing.


I must not have been clear.

The “she” and “he” in what I wrote are your friend and her husband.

I was NOT talking about your husband. Your husband is wise to stay out of it.

ETA:

Your friend could tell her husband what is unacceptable about the current situation (his unwillingness to talk about it and work to resolve it, if those are of concern), and learn (perhaps through counseling), to set and enforce limits/boundaries about that.

There may not be a mutually agreeable set of circumstances where they can stay together.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> That is clearly duty sex....If you don't feel like it, then why do it? I don['t feel like raking the lawn and cleaning the gutters, but I do it because it's my duty as a responsible homeowner...Defeats the entire principle of a sexual relationship, IMO....I'd never want that under any circumstances,, i've never been that hard up to ever want to accept that..
> 
> If you see it to be different, then I don't know what to tell you, I am glad it works for you....(shrug)


No its not its the sex of love. Love for the spouse and a desire to strengthen the marriage. Life is never all about what we feel, or shouldn't be, feelings lie anyway.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> No its not its the sex of love. Love for the spouse and a desire to strengthen the marriage. Life is never all about what we feel, or shouldn't be, feelings lie anyway.



No disrespect, but this here is nonsense, IMO...

If I don't want sex or don't feel like it, then it's not _sex._...Prostitutes "don't feel like it" either, but they do it for the money....Sex should be willing, anticipatory, exciting, desirous, fun, enjoyable, etc...between both parties.. There are a myriad of things we do for the love of another (even though we may not like it), to strengthen a marriage...but this isn't supposed to be one of them....Knowing a partner "took one for the team" doesn't do anything but break one's spirit....

Understand, if you want to do it, and it works for you, I guess it's great, but I have to ask, when you have sex with your husband when you don't feel like it, do you tell him that??


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> No disrespect, but this here is nonsense, IMO...
> 
> If I don't want sex or don't feel like it, then it's not _sex._...Prostitutes "don't feel like it" either, but they do it for the money....Sex should be willing, anticipatory, exciting, desirous, fun, enjoyable, etc...between both parties.. There are a myriad of things we do for the love of another (even though we may not like it), to strengthen a marriage...but this isn't supposed to be one of them....Knowing a partner "took one for the team" doesn't do anything but break one's spirit....
> 
> Understand, if you want to do it, and it works for you, I guess it's great, but I have to ask, when you have sex with your husband when you don't feel like it, do you tell him that??


When I got married 15 years ago I made a decision to never reject my husband sexually. The sex life in his first marriage had been a big disappointment to him and the constant rejection had had a bad effect. Nothing I do sexually breaks his spirit, on the contrary I love him and I want to have sex with him no matter what my feelings may occasionally say. Marriage isnt all about us and what we want, or what we 'feel' like doing, its about sometimes putting our spouse first and thinking of them and the marriage.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> *When I got married 15 years ago I made a decision to never reject my husband sexually.* The sex life in his first marriage had been a big disappointment to him and the constant rejection had had a bad effect. Nothing I do sexually breaks his spirit, on the contrary I love him and I want to have sex with him no matter what my feelings may occasionally say. Marriage isnt all about us and what we want, or what we 'feel' like doing, its about sometimes putting our spouse first and thinking of them and the marriage.


A marriage, IMO, isn't supposed to be about being universally compliant, dutiful, etc and lose all aspects of personal autonomy, individuality, and feeling.......Because you married someone does that mean now you have a servant or handmaid??...I dunno, is that what the Bible says??

Sorry...I'd never want a woman like that...I know a lot of guys probably would, though 😂 ...I don't want any woman to do anything in a sexual manner out of some kind of duty or that they feel bad that their previous partner didn't do it, for whatever reason that may be...Their previous experience shouldn't weigh into what someone does in the present...If they don't feel like it (or if I don't either) then it shouldn't be done....if it's a simple and short term cause of someone not feeling well, then who cares? If it's a bigger issue like for whatever reason, they just don't want it, then those issues need to be addressed...hence all the bedroom issues you see outlined on numerous threads on these types of sites..

I respect your situation and like stated, if you are in harmony and peace, then what can anyone say about it? It's not for me, that's for sure......


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Interesting last few posts. I have had my partner initiate sex with me when I wasn't exactly "In the mood" at that moment. But since I love him and don't want him to feel rejected I allow the moments to continue and before I know it, I'm into it. I don't think of that as duty sex. By the time we get down the the nitty gritty I'm very into it and while I can't speak for him, I don't think he thinks to himself "well damn, that sucked, she just gave in to be nice." I know this about myself though so it's not a big deal to me to allow myself to be led there. This week I've had horrible asthma...twice I tried to initiate to be nice as it had been a while (for us, not really a long time though) and he turned me down. "I know you're trying to be good to me but you need to rest and get better. I'll wait." and it's because I know he also cares about my needs and loves me that I feel the way that I feel about letting him get me in the mood sometimes.

But what if I did just give in to be nice? I would hope he'd think "damn...my woman loves me enough to give me that gift even when she wasn't really in the mood" instead of "damn, that sucked, she didn't want me" because the reason I would have had sex was because I love him and want him to be happy and feel loved. Now, most of the time we are in sync and none of this is an issue and maybe that's why it's not a big deal...if it was always an out of sync thing, I'm sure it would be harder to deal with as a couple.

I am very blessed that my BF and I have mostly the same love languages but if we didn't, I'd think we'd each have to be more thinking about how we satisfy each other and make sure that each other feels loved. Thankfully, it just comes naturally to us as a couple. 

As for the OP's friend...if she has any hope of bringing her husband back around, she's going to have to acknowledge to him that she hurt him deeply and that she was being selfish and only thinking of her own needs at that time. She needs to make sure he understands that the whole "careful what you wish for" definitely applied here and that she has learned a valuable lesson...that their sex life is way more important to her than she realized and make sure he understands that she MISSES him greatly sexually and NEEDS him greatly. That might be her only hope.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> Interesting last few posts. I have had my partner initiate sex with me when I wasn't exactly "In the mood" at that moment. But since I love him and don't want him to feel rejected I allow the moments to continue and before I know it, I'm into it. I don't think of that as duty sex. By the time we get down the the nitty gritty I'm very into it and while I can't speak for him, I don't think he thinks to himself "well damn, that sucked, she just gave in to be nice." I know this about myself though so it's not a big deal to me to allow myself to be led there. This week I've had horrible asthma...twice I tried to initiate to be nice as it had been a while (for us, not really a long time though) and he turned me down. "I know you're trying to be good to me but you need to rest and get better. I'll wait." and it's because I know he also cares about my needs and loves me that I feel the way that I feel about letting him get me in the mood sometimes.
> 
> But what if I did just give in to be nice? I would hope he'd think "damn...my woman loves me enough to give me that gift even when she wasn't really in the mood" instead of "damn, that sucked, she didn't want me" because the reason I would have had sex was because I love him and want him to be happy and feel loved. Now, most of the time we are in sync and none of this is an issue and maybe that's why it's not a big deal...if it was always an out of sync thing, I'm sure it would be harder to deal with as a couple.
> 
> ...


I think what you are describing is more responsive desire than just duty sex.

Whether duty sex is appreciated or not entirely depends on the status of the rest of the relationship. The reason people are down on it is because it can lead to more serious issues such as sexual aversion. Responsive desire isn't anything like that because once you get going you are into it and you do want it.

The friend should only say she misses him sexually if that is the truth. If she is just worried that he will be looking to leave her, but actually still doesn't want the sex that would be dishonest and do more harm than good.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Yep @AGoodFlogging nailed it. Responsive desire isn’t duty sex because you responded to his initiation with your own arousal and desire.

Duty sex or so-called “starfish“ is very different and is kind of repulsive. I asked my wife to never do this and have turned her down when I believe she really has absolutely no interest even after giving a chance for her responsive desire to kick in.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> A marriage, IMO, isn't supposed to be about being universally compliant, dutiful, etc and lose all aspects of personal autonomy, individuality, and feeling.......Because you married someone does that mean now you have a servant or handmaid??...I dunno, is that what the Bible says??
> 
> Sorry...I'd never want a woman like that...I know a lot of guys probably would, though 😂 ...I don't want any woman to do anything in a sexual manner out of some kind of duty or that they feel bad that their previous partner didn't do it, for whatever reason that may be...Their previous experience shouldn't weigh into what someone does in the present...If they don't feel like it (or if I don't either) then it shouldn't be done....if it's a simple and short term cause of someone not feeling well, then who cares? If it's a bigger issue like for whatever reason, they just don't want it, then those issues need to be addressed...hence all the bedroom issues you see outlined on numerous threads on these types of sites..
> 
> I respect your situation and like stated, if you are in harmony and peace, then what can anyone say about it? It's not for me, that's for sure......


I nearly laughed out loud at your first paragraph, that is SO not me. I am pretty sure that my husband would find that very amusing as well.

My husband LOVES that I want to have sex with him, which I do, why would I reject a man I love sexually? Why would he reject me sexually? Neither of us would ask if the other were ill or really tired or whatever, so we are sensitive in that way. 

I feel very sad at the countless posts we get here when one spouse will reject the other over and over until they more or less just give up. Not going to happen to us in our marriage.

For me its a choice, going by how we feel all the time isnt often productive. I can choose not to reject my husband or I can choose to reject him. Which is best for us and our marriage? 

Oh and some here have mentioned starfish sex, that never happens.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

AGoodFlogging said:


> I think what you are describing is more responsive desire than just duty sex.
> 
> Whether duty sex is appreciated or not entirely depends on the status of the rest of the relationship. The reason people are down on it is because it can lead to more serious issues such as sexual aversion. Responsive desire isn't anything like that because once you get going you are into it and you do want it.
> 
> The friend should only say she misses him sexually if that is the truth. If she is just worried that he will be looking to leave her, but actually still doesn't want the sex that would be dishonest and do more harm than good.





AGoodFlogging said:


> I think what you are describing is more responsive desire than just duty sex.
> 
> Whether duty sex is appreciated or not entirely depends on the status of the rest of the relationship. The reason people are down on it is because it can lead to more serious issues such as sexual aversion. Responsive desire isn't anything like that because once you get going you are into it and you do want it.
> 
> The friend should only say she misses him sexually if that is the truth. If she is just worried that he will be looking to leave her, but actually still doesn't want the sex that would be dishonest and do more harm than good.


I agree 100% that she should only say that if she means it...but based on what OP has relayed, it sounds like it's the truth. Sometimes you don't know what you've got til it's gone as the song says. 

As for responsive, yes, I am that way. But if there are problems in the relationship, I won't respond. I've had that with other relationships. In the last couple of years my exH tried to "fix" things by initiating. Too bad he'd already called me a sex maniac for actually wanting a sexual relationship after age 40. I never came back from that, ever. Of course, as many here know, the problems with my exH were pretty deep and hard to overcome. 

But, I can recall times when I really did NOT feel like having sex and still did it and didn't really get into it. But I loved my partner so I did NOT offer up starfish sex. It's few and far between though...I will admit that. But I still did it because I want to make my partner happy.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

It matters much to me what/how and why my partner would provide (or not provide) a sexual experience. It matters much what she hopes to get out if it, actually gets out of, and what connection between us is achieved or damaged.


There are lots of possibilities besides starfish motivated by duty/fear that damages the connection and leaves people feeling lessor. I’d agree some people might think the blandest duty/driven sex would make them happy, especially people who have been rejected repeatedly over a long period of time. But, in my actual experience, once experienced it become clear that it was just fools gold.

Nevertheless, I don’t think that is all that relevant to the OP’s friend’s situation. The opportunity is in the other possibilities that exists. It remains to be seen whether the OP’s friend can find a way to lovingly give something and it be received lovingly by her husband, in a way that leaves them feeling more connected and valued and appropriate to life.


For that to happen, they are going to have to do it with their eyes wide open (figuratively). They both have to be willing to be present and be seen. They both must show up and engage about the problem and their choices. They both must acknowledge she is not regularly burning with desire for his ****. They both must acknowledge that is what he might of wanted, but that is not where they are now.

He must care about what this is like for her. She must care about what this is like for him.

FWIW, there is much my wife could do sexually that would mean a lot to me, still after all these years of chronic rejection and after convincingly declaring herself to have zero desire, depending on the “why” and what it would mean to her. It does means a lot, regrettably, that she chooses not to.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

MaiChi said:


> I do not know if she has told others. *She seems upset about the situation, and upset that he is not accepting that she apologised. But she said he accepted her apology*. I am not sure now what she expects me to do and I do not want to sound rude.


So...I'm a little confused...he did accept her apology or didn't? 

Or did he accept the apology? But maybe she thought the acceptance also meant he would stop refusing her sex, but he is still refusing?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

notmyjamie said:


> In the last couple of years my exH tried to "fix" things by initiating. *Too bad he'd already called me a sex maniac for actually wanting a sexual relationship after age 40. I never came back from that, ever.* Of course, as many here know, the problems with my exH were pretty deep and hard to overcome.


YES...
((((((((((HUGS!!!!))))))))))


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Maybe this woman should invest in one of those super duper sex robots for her husband. Then he can just keep it in the closet and wheel it out whenever he's randy.


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## shortbus (Jul 25, 2017)

Broken at 20 said:


> So...I'm a little confused...he did accept her apology or didn't?
> 
> Or did he accept the apology? But maybe she thought the acceptance also meant he would stop refusing her sex, but he is still refusing?


Oh, he accepted it alright, on paper.
He's done, in my opinion, something tells me this isn't his first rodeo with her. Just a hunch.
Sorry for the wife, can't get the **** back in the horse and all.
So keep in mind ladies, want to kill your marriage, this is the 'how to'.
MaiChi, might want to remind your friend, who's 48, that when she hits the dating market after the divorce, she'll probably only be getting interest from men 10-20 years older than her. Who are coincidentally, looking to have sex.
Cats and box wine anyone?


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

shortbus said:


> Oh, he accepted it alright, on paper.
> He's done, in my opinion, something tells me this isn't his first rodeo with her. Just a hunch.
> Sorry for the wife, can't get the **** back in the horse and all.
> So keep in mind ladies, want to kill your marriage, this is the 'how to'.
> ...


All members here need to work together to reduce the impact of disparity between spouse pairs. What do we need to do and how do we need to do it. I have listened to much crying in the last few days. I think we almost all agree that she invited it to herself. But how did that thought start in her head. How can this be avoided in any marriage. It is sad to listen to and sad to imagine. 

We must discuss how this might arise and how it might be avoided. The younger ones need to have more confidence in the institution of marriage and its ability to last the type periods that our grandmothers/fathers clocked in their marriages. How did they do it?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> But how did that thought start in her head. How can this be avoided in any marriage.


My theory has always been that it is handed down from generation to generation. But there are times when peer pressure fills in for a person who doesn't get the message from mom. My Wife gave me the "we are to old for this" talk at a younger age than when her mother stopped having sex with her dad. She never said, "mom says...", so I don't know. What I do know is that she was very much aware of how little mom put into sex. That is a sad tale for another day.

Even in this very forum you will see advice to withhold sex as a power play. "If he won't just cut off the sex . . .", and to quote a movie "If you have a baby, then you won't be the baby anymore." It's embedded in the fabric of our society. The management of the male sex drive, by the partner.

How can it be avoided? Well in my case I just failed to comply, but that is exactly what a smart ass will do. What can a woman do to avoid this, well there are a handful of women here who have succeeded, The accept their own sexuality and enjoy it. They don't let other women make those decisions for them. They genuinely love their husbands and worry about the husbands happiness before he shuts down and moves out. 

I'm still clinging to the power aspect of this situation. Marriage doesn't have to be a power struggle. The happiest couples are true partners. Would a true partner have done what your friend did? would she go looking for evidence to shut her partner down? Would she dictate his happiness based on his birthdate? You know that would never happen, because you wouldn't have done it. 

There are a lot of well meaning people giving crap advice to young women. Telling them to lie, abuse, and manipulate. A person with solid moral footing would spot that bad advice right away. A good moral education based on good examples is the way forward.

My Wife's FOO failed her in many ways, but over time she overcame most of it.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> ...type periods that our grandmothers/fathers clocked in their marriages. *How did they do it*?


Those days unfortunately are gone. 

My parents grew up during the depression, married before WW2, spent years dealing with my father's combat injuries. Never knew them to fight with one another. They were married for sixty years until my mom died and would do anything for one another. My dad died of a broken heart after mom was gone. They *LOVED *one another. Through good times and bad. They married for keeps ( a quaint and outdated concept today ). Likewise my wife and I *LOVE* one another in the same way, and we have surely been through plenty of tough ( and good times too ). We also married (young) for keeps.

I know this is a quaint and outdated concept, but that's how they did it. Maybe modern communications and media have interjected all of the junk that people allow to destroy their marriages and lives. This very thread is result of a thoughtless heartless conversation. Obviously the OP didn't *LOVE* her husband or would have never said what she said. If she didn't love him she shouldn't have married him.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

shortbus said:


> Oh, he accepted it alright, on paper.
> He's done, in my opinion, something tells me this isn't his first rodeo with her. Just a hunch.
> Sorry for the wife, can't get the **** back in the horse and all.
> So keep in mind ladies, want to kill your marriage, this is the 'how to'.
> ...


Interesting that you think a 48 year old woman won't be able to date someone her own age, just 10 to 20 years older. So by extension, are all of the men married to women their own age just grinning and bearing it and terribly unhappy they are stuck with someone their own age? 🤔

Or is it only divorced/single men who suddenly aren't interested in women their own age?

Why would a 48ish year old man be happy with his 48ish year old wife but a 48ish year old divorced man NOT be interested in a 48ish year old woman?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Interesting that you think a 48 year old woman won't be able to date someone her own age, just 10 to 20 years older. So by extension, are all of the men married to women their own age just grinning and bearing it and terribly unhappy they are stuck with someone their own age? 🤔
> 
> Or is it only divorced/single men who suddenly aren't interested in women their own age?
> 
> Why would a 48ish year old man be happy with his 48ish year old wife but a 48ish year old divorced man NOT be interested in a 48ish year old woman?


Have to agree with this. I met my husband (on line) when I was age 49 and he was 48, so clearly he shouldnt have been interested in me   Another divorced lady I know in her 40's met and married a guy 7 years her junior, what was he thinking?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

the trouble for the single 48ish yo man is that 38 ish women come with kids


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> the trouble for the single 48ish yo man is that 38 ish women come with kids


Yep.

Or wants some fresh new ones. Ick.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Have to agree with this. I met my husband (on line) when I was age 49 and he was 48, so clearly he shouldn't have been interested in me   Another divorced lady I know in her 40's met and married a guy 7 years her junior, what was he thinking?


I married my wife who is quite a few years older than me (she calls herself the "original cougar"!)
Works (and continues) for me!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> We must discuss how this might arise and how it might be avoided. *The younger ones need to have more confidence in the institution of marriage and its ability to last the type periods that our grandmothers/fathers clocked in their marriages. How did they do it?*


How did they do it?

Many of those "great" and terrific grandfathers had mistresses on the side that no one talked or knew about....And many of those women stayed because they had no choice but to stay or wind up maybe on the street....

No...Thankfully it doesn't have to be this way anymore....If the marriage happens to work out, great, let it last a hundred years....But if it doesn't and things aren't going the way they should be, and a reasonable effort was made to resolve it, then there should be no hesitation to end it...This isn't a dress rehearsal and you only get one chance at this life...

The younger one's need to realize that mistakes are made in this area...Thankfully we live in a time where it's pretty rare that people are "stuck" .To think that of all the billions of people on this planet, that one can get it absolutely right every time is nuts...Rarely happens...Live and learn...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

AndStilliRise said:


> Likewise, a common trait amongst some men are that their wives owe it to them.


Not to put too fine a point on it but if my wife doesn't want sex with me, we are done.

My wife does owe me sex and likewise for me towards her.

I will only have sex with my wife so any applicant for matrimony with me knows up front what she is in for.

Mrs. Conan demonstrated her willingness to live up to that requirement over 30x in our first week and she had me convinced and I her.

I do think men should be upfront about their sex drives and women too before saying "I do".

Let's just say people, who have the attitude you referred to, probably should avoid marriage.

I've known some cases of women divorcing over lack of sex just to keep this balanced.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> My friend was chatting with me on Zoom yesterday, catching up as we have not met in person for a while. I asked her how Nick was and she started telling me that she is having issues she thinks are related to lockdown. A month ago she told him off for wanting sex all the time, and just happened to tell him that at his age he should be thankful for anything like once per week. She says she told him he was too old for so many times per week. Since then, he has not been near her and refuses to fall for any enticement she has tried. She asks what else she could do. She apologised but he is not budging.
> 
> She is upset because it was their anniversary on Wednesday and he got her some gifts but would not have sex with her.


Have her research spanking for bad girls and buy her husband a padded paddle and/or light strap.

She should also invest in a bedroom outfit that is exposes her cheeks so as to invite some discipline.

She can help him punish her since she was such a bad girl and that can lead to atonement for her and satisfaction for them both.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> All members here need to work together to reduce the impact of disparity between spouse pairs. What do we need to do and how do we need to do it. I have listened to much crying in the last few days. I think we almost all agree that she invited it to herself. But how did that thought start in her head. How can this be avoided in any marriage. It is sad to listen to and sad to imagine.
> 
> We must discuss how this might arise and how it might be avoided. The younger ones need to have more confidence in the institution of marriage and its ability to last the type periods that our grandmothers/fathers clocked in their marriages. *How did they do it?*


They might not have had much of a choice. At least in the world I’m from, divorce is a “doable” option for more people than it used to be.

A long marriage isn’t necessarily a good marriage.

Also, I suspect expectations for marriage were less varied generations ago, and people more easily resigned themselves to accept the apparent “normal” even when it was unfulfilling.

I’d agree figuring out to avoid the pain and close the gaps is a worthwhile pursuit.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it but if my wife doesn't *want *sex with me, we are done.
> 
> My wife does owe me sex and likewise for me towards her.


What is "marriage" if it isn't a sexual relationship, two people agreeing to "forsake all others" and "cleave to one another". So if the sexual bond disappears, what is it? When that bond breaks, I would submit the "marriage" is over even if both continue living in the same house or even sleeping in the same bed, even if they never divorce.

Operative word IMHO is "want".


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Have her research spanking for bad girls and buy her husband a padded paddle and/or light strap.
> 
> She should also invest in a bedroom outfit that is exposes her cheeks so as to invite some discipline.
> 
> She can help him punish her since she was such a bad girl and that can lead to atonement for her and satisfaction for them both.


I'm aware of this dynamic. But, it only works for some people. Not sure if there is any research to say a percentage. For others it is confusing or abusive or both.

Sadly in her current state of mind she might try anything. Could lead to disaster.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm aware of this dynamic. But, it only works for some people. Not sure if there is any research to say a percentage. For others it is con fusing or abusive or both.
> 
> Safely in her current state of mind she might try anything. Could lead to disaster.


Researching first is a must.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Marriage doesn't have to be a power struggle. *The happiest couples are true partners.* Would a true partner have done what your friend did? would she go looking for evidence to shut her partner down? Would she dictate his happiness based on his birthdate? You know that would never happen, because you wouldn't have done it


I completely agree with the bolded statement. To remind us of that (and the importance of sex), we have a plaque that says: Don't try to figure out who wears the pants in your relationship. Relationships work best when no one wears pants.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MJJEAN said:


> Bring your friend here to read this thread. Then send her to the Reddit Deadbedrooms sub and have her do some reading. It's not uncommon to see people posting that after being frequently rejected and shamed they simply stop seeing their spouses as sex partners and their feelings toward them as romantic partners starts to die.


This. I've found some people don't see that sex is a make-or-break.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> And it sure seems like SHE doesn't enjoy being told No either...which I find interesting, and TELLING.


Maybe not.

The friend still thinks her husband wants it too much - that much was stated. She could bemoan the loss of power / control I guess.

It's more likely his refusing sex threatened her sense of marriage stability / security. She doesn't want sex, but she still wants him for herself. But he might be checking out and that's why his refusal of sex troubles her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Of course we're just hearing this from someone else, but it sounds like he's wanting to have it several times a week and that is a lot for people who have been together for a while and not so much for young lovers and Honeymooners. And of course no word if they are busy with children or all that stuff. But if she really doesn't want to have sex anymore then I would think she'd be pretty happy about this turn of events and she's not. Also since we're hearing this from a third party, we don't really know how she actually brought this up to him and if it's as bad as it sounds like it is.


She doesn't want sex but doesn't want to lose him. She's worried about that happening and has two unpleasant choices potentially. She might need to figure out which is least bad and accordingly.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> What makes you think he is happy? He's as sexless as she is. He's as soon to be ex as she is. He got told no first.
> I know I said she is begging for sex, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that that will stop the second he gives in.
> He is only maintaining a semblance of power by removing her comfort. Her power was removed when he discovered that she was not going to offer any more carrot.
> I refuse to feel sorry for her, she demanded less sex, and he delivered.
> The gate keeper only holds power if they open the gate.


Or it will stop when she's convinced again their marriage is safe (or maybe when she's so fed up it doesn't matter if he leaves).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

gaius said:


> As far as the OP goes, I don't really understand why after all that time he hasn't figured out the ins and outs of his woman. What to say and how to act in order to get her aroused. To the point she had to tell him off because he was trying to get sex like a 3 year old trying to get a cookie before dinner. Nothing more attractive than that in a 54 year old guy.
> 
> What should she do? Take him out for the early bird special and get him an AARP membership to apologise. Him getting over his sensitivity will probably do wonders toward her wanting to have more sex with him.


Maybe once a week is simply as good as her desire gets?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> I understand that he is not giving in at all but he is not showing any anger against her either. (I asked her). She has developed into fear for her marriage now.


And there it is. And, she's probably right

So she has two unappealing choices. Have more sex to come closer to his need, or risk the marriage. Tell her to choose which and act accordingly.

If she wants the marriage, an apology is insufficient. She needs to commit to him reach a compromise to meet his need cheerfully, and honor it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> She blames lockdown for him wanting sex so much.
> I asked why she does not want it as much and she says its too much. He wants too much.
> How much is too much and why is it too much?
> 
> I do not know if she has told others. She seems upset about the situation, and upset that he is not accepting that she apologised. But she said he accepted her apology. I am not sure now what she expects me to do and I do not want to sound rude.


Nothing will change until her sexual behavior changes.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> She doesn't want sex but doesn't want to lose him. She's worried about that happening and has two unpleasant choices potentially. She might need to figure out which is least bad and accordingly.


Why wouldn't she want to lose him, though, if she's not attracted and interested anymore? Money?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Interesting that you think a 48 year old woman won't be able to date someone her own age, just 10 to 20 years older. So by extension, are all of the men married to women their own age just grinning and bearing it and terribly unhappy they are stuck with someone their own age? 🤔
> 
> Or is it only divorced/single men who suddenly aren't interested in women their own age?
> 
> Why would a 48ish year old man be happy with his 48ish year old wife but a 48ish year old divorced man NOT be interested in a 48ish year old woman?


It's not an absolute, for sure. But I frequent some singles groups (not OLD) and the ladies tend to be same age or older. Maybe not that much older, but the trend is there.

But, the expectation for sex eventually is there.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Yep.
> 
> Or wants some fresh new ones. Ick.


Hey, this 48 y/o guy still loves kids! Don't want any more of my own, but doing the step-dad thing is fine. I've done it, am good at it, and always been well-liked by the kids of ladies I've dated.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Why wouldn't she want to lose him, though, if she's not attracted and interested anymore? Money?


Money / loss of lifestyle / doesn't want to run a home alone, ego / perception of others, doesn't want to lose relationships with friends / in-laws, religious considerations.

It does happen. My XW admitted she wasn't into me sexually but knew that if she was honest about it, I would not marry her.

But she did like the attention she got from me, liked having a nice lifestyle, liked hearing how nice it was that she had an attractive guy that was making something of himself.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Yeah, some people are just afraid of change. Sad, really. Things don't always last forever, despite the best intentions.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yeah, some people are just afraid of change. Sad, really. Things don't always last forever, despite the best intentions.


And some overplay their hand. My XW and I manage to be friends and she's the mother of my children, which does count. We're in regular contact.

She's twice divorced and not happy. Money's always tight, she's often lonely, no practical help for things. She's made comments about my life that ooze bitterness and regret.

She thought she was all that and didn't have to really compromise or work hard. I'm sure she's not the only lady who felt she deserved to be on a pedestal.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, sometimes women do have to struggle a bit more than a lot of men. I think most exes ARE resentful of their exes' lives, though! It irks me one of my ex bfs ended up making a ton of money (we were on parallel career paths at one time) and is always going on big trips. Oh, well, he is a work horse. I was too, though. He just retired. I'll never be able to retire. He always made more money than me and I actually had a couple years' experience on him doing the same type work. But that's another subject. 

At least I'm not one of the women you mention who sits around and gets lonely when alone. I'd hate to have that problem. It can make some people make bad choices letting people into their lives.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, sometimes women do have to struggle a bit more than a lot of men. I think most exes ARE resentful of their exes' lives, though! It irks me one of my ex bfs ended up making a ton of money (we were on parallel career paths at one time) and is always going on big trips. Oh, well, he is a work horse. I was too, though. He just retired. I'll never be able to retire. He always made more money than me and I actually had a couple years' experience on him doing the same type work. But that's another subject.
> 
> At least I'm not one of the women you mention who sits around and gets lonely when alone. I'd hate to have that problem. It can make some people make bad choices letting people into their lives.


I've never been resentful. I did resent her tactics in the divorce but that's water under the bridge.

If she's resentful, tough (poop) on her. She left, she has no one to blame but herself. She could be have a nice life alongside me if she acted right and was a full partner in marriage. She thought my best days had passed (got laid off and couldn't find anything) and figured she was selling high, so to speak.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

She sounds kind of mercenary.
.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> At least I'm not one of the women you mention who sits around and gets lonely when alone. I'd hate to have that problem. It can make some people make bad choices letting people into their lives.


She's doesn't date because men "have expectations" and Christians don't have unmarried sex (forgetting she was a dud in marriage too). Importantly, she refuses to adjust her expectations. Both me and H #2 are successful professionals and she's not close. Nevertheless, that's her baseline.

But what successful guy in his 40s / 50s is going to commit to someone who is broke, demanding, doesn't like sex, and is kinda lazy / low ambition? She doesn't like it but knows the score. And I'm sure that I being able to get younger women who actually want me bothers her (thus the bitterness).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She sounds kind of mercenary.
> .


That's a fair assessment, although she'd characterize it as expecting a man to be appropriately productive and selfless.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> She's doesn't date because men "have expectations" and Christians don't have unmarried sex (forgetting she was a dud in marriage too). Importantly, she refuses to adjust her expectations. Both me and H #2 are successful professionals and she's not close. Nevertheless, that's her baseline.
> 
> But what successful guy in his 40s / 50s is going to commit to someone who is broke, demanding, doesn't like sex, and is kinda lazy / low ambition? She doesn't like it but knows the score. And I'm sure that I being able to get younger women who actually want me bothers her (thus the bitterness).


She will be all right alone. Not everyone needs or wants a partner. Some people want one but aren't any good at it. Marriage just isn't for everyone. she'll find her own way and hopefully you will have to listen to her every step of it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> That's a fair assessment, although she'd characterize it as expecting a man to be appropriately productive and selfless.


There aren't too many selfless people left in the world. Sounds like she got some kind of unreasonable expectations from someplace. It will probably do her a lot of good to be on her own for a while and then maybe she'll be more appreciative of what it takes to make a living and all that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She will be all right alone. Not everyone needs or wants a partner. Some people want one but aren't any good at it. Marriage just isn't for everyone. she'll find her own way and hopefully you will have to listen to her every step of it.


She'll have to, of course. I'm posting all this here to show that it's not the guy's fault if she doesn't desire him. Some women are just that out of touch and won't admit they're wrong, won't agree to try harder, and even will go out and make the same mistake again because of course he is an unreasonable horndog.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

You notice that there are not many women women defending the behaviour of women who refuse to have sex with their husbands. But there must be a GOOD reason why the thought arises in the heads in the first place. For any of us who has at any point felt that she did not think it right to have sex with her husband, what was the reason? To any man who discussed this with his wife, what did she say the reason was?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There aren't too many selfless people left in the world. Sounds like she got some kind of unreasonable expectations from someplace. It will probably do her a lot of good to be on her own for a while and then maybe she'll be more appreciative of what it takes to make a living and all that.


It's going on five years. She definitely took a 2x4 to the head (figuratively) but it hasn't done anything but cause her to bemoan her situation.

I can't even convince her to go to school and improve herself.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

It certainly isn't the man's fault, but it's not really the woman's either. Attraction is Not practical and pragmatic. It is whimsical and possibly even genetic. It is arbitrary.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

DTO said:


> She's doesn't date because men "have expectations" and Christians don't have unmarried sex (forgetting she was a dud in marriage too). Importantly, she refuses to adjust her expectations. Both me and H #2 are successful professionals and she's not close. Nevertheless, that's her baseline.
> 
> But what successful guy in his 40s / 50s is going to commit to someone who is broke, demanding, doesn't like sex, and is kinda lazy / low ambition? She doesn't like it but knows the score. And I'm sure that I being able to get younger women who actually want me bothers her (thus the bitterness).


If you are a Christian and you divorce, it follows you cannot remarry any other man/woman. You cannot even remarry your ex unless you both have not had sex with another. That as I understand it is the correct Christian stand point. 

Also I understand most Christian denominations encourage married women to provide sex to their husbands and husbands to their wives, but then most of the church policy documents are compiled by men. Maybe they have the male perspectives.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

DTO said:


> Maybe not.
> 
> The friend still thinks her husband wants it too much - that much was stated. She could bemoan the loss of power / control I guess.
> 
> It's more likely his refusing sex threatened her sense of marriage stability / security. She doesn't want sex, but she still wants him for herself. But he might be checking out and that's why his refusal of sex troubles her.


I think you are on to the truth here. Sex for this woman is currency. Sex is transactional for her. _"Okay, I will have sex with you husband, but in return I want this, this this and that. My enthusiasm will be commensurate with how I deem you to be meeting these demands." _

That is the absolute worst approach to any long term relationship.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

DTO said:


> Maybe once a week is simply as good as her desire FOR HIM gets?


Corrected that for you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> You notice that there are not many women women defending the behaviour of women who refuse to have sex with their husbands. But there must be a GOOD reason why the thought arises in the heads in the first place. For any of us who has at any point felt that she did not think it right to have sex with her husband, what was the reason? To any man who discussed this with his wife, what did she say the reason was?


For my XW, bad teaching and FOO issues probably played into her not liking sex much. But, those don't explain why she's comfortable with lying about her sex drive to get someone to commit.

The most accurate answer is she's selfish. She hid not being into it because she wanted to be married. She wanted that ecause we got along well, being with me brought her some esteem, and I was likely to be a good provider. I was a path to a smooth life and she'd worry about the rest later.

Then, when desire (unsurprisingly) wasn't there she refused to work on it meaningfully. She convinced herself that she was fine and did just enough (intercourse 1x month) to feel good about her performance as a wife, while demanding a high level of performance from me.

And I think that's the commonality here. Women come to believe it's okay to have their needs met without reciprocating. Maybe they feel touched out, tired, whatever. But they try to lay the blame at the feet of her partner.

You'll note there aren't many stories where the lady tells the guy "look, I'm just not into it and I will not be taking from you if I'm not giving back". It's more common to hear resentment because he's pulling away too. Wonder why that is.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It certainly isn't the man's fault, but it's not really the woman's either. Attraction is Not practical and pragmatic. It is whimsical and possibly even genetic. It is arbitrary.


Not being attracted isn't a fault. But not being attracted and still trying to benefit from someone is a flaw. It's a character defect.

Look at the OP's friend. She doesn't want much sex with her H and says it's too much, justifying it with something she saw on Google.

But when the marriage is at risk, she comes around because something she wants IS at risk now. Rather than this approach, why doesn't she think "our marriage is valuable to me and I don't want to lose it, so I'm going to meet his needs as he meets mine"?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Corrected that for you.


Could be, maybe not. My ex wife is proof some ladies just don't want it. But again, if her desire for him is so low, why sweat it if he's pulling back?

In other words, if she has a healthy sex appetite but only has sex weekly (at best, perhaps) her motives for keeping him around are selfish. It's likely that selfishness has been an issue before. Selfish people act that way generally.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> Not being attracted isn't a fault. But not being attracted and still trying to benefit from someone is a flaw. It's a character defect.
> 
> Look at the OP's friend. She doesn't want much sex with her H and says it's too much, justifying it with something she saw on Google.
> 
> But when the marriage is at risk, she comes around because something she wants IS at risk now. Rather than this approach, why doesn't she think "our marriage is valuable to me and I don't want to lose it, so I'm going to meet his needs as he meets mine"?


Because she doesn't want to feel like a paid sex worker. It is wrong to try to benefit from someone financially, and that is already being a bit of a prostitute, isn't it? But she reached her limits on that, and it's just as well they are apart now. So she at least had some self-respect in the end, but now she's blowing that by whining about it. I could never just agree to have sex with someone whenever they wanted it. I never reached that point with any of my men, but then I wasn't with them for years and years either. I wouldn't be treated like a prostitute just to keep a marriage together. It's not right. But here, they are both flawed. She is a taker and so is he, just with different currency.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because she doesn't want to feel like a paid sex worker. It is wrong to try to benefit from someone financially, and that is already being a bit of a prostitute, isn't it? But she reached her limits on that, and it's just as well they are apart now. So she at least had some self-respect in the end, but now she's blowing that by whining about it. I could never just agree to have sex with someone whenever they wanted it. I never reached that point with any of my men, but then I wasn't with them for years and years either. I wouldn't be treated like a prostitute just to keep a marriage together. It's not right. But here, they are both flawed. She is a taker and so is he, just with different currency.


I see your point. But if she does feel that way, that is underpinned by entitlement. She wouldn't feel she was selling herself if she felt like his needs were equally worthy and his contributions were equally valuable.

If he were to tell her "a core value of marriage is that our needs are equally important and our accommodation of each other needs to reflect that" what do you think she would say? I think she would disagree, and that's the issue.

I don't see him as a taker. Sex is a reasonable expectation of marriage. Why should she expect to have him be a diligent husband without meeting his needs too?

He now gets that she doesn't desire him sexually and he's done. She's just pissy because she's getting her way and paying the price.

Of course, my premise here is that sex is an ordinary part of marriage - part of the give and take. If you are of the opinion that sex is optional or "icing on the cake" we won't agree.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> You notice that there are not many women women defending the behaviour of women who refuse to have sex with their husbands. But there must be a GOOD reason why the thought arises in the heads in the first place. For any of us who has at any point felt that she did not think it right to have sex with her husband, what was the reason? To any man who discussed this with his wife, what did she say the reason was?


My analysis/guess of my marriage, and my wife:

My wife is conflicted. She intellectually understands sex is important, emotionally/bonding for me. Early in our relationship, she leveraged that to please me because she cared about me and our relationship.

Later, there became a _*part*_ of her that passive-aggressively leverages that to ensure I am not happy and that my emotional needs are not met. Or at least, the burden of sex is no longer outweighed by motivation to be loving towards me. Or, perhaps most likely, she is blocked from being a lover by how she feels about herself, and how she feels I feel about her.

Her stated justifications have varied over years. Most are about me. Post-partum there were suggestions maybe she had nerve damage; but eventually, her ability to achieve orgasm with me in the room returned. She paid some attention to possible hormone issues peri- through to post-menopause, but didn’t take it seriously and follow through much.

Recently she has told me again how bad I made her feel YEARS ago, in a couple of instances, one in front of a witness (MC). The result being she feels I think she is a “*****”, and that I think that I am superior and perfect. Who would want to have sex with someone (me) if that is what I think of her?!

(edit: deleted a bunch of details/tangents)

So far, and again and again, there is no path to redemption for me. She insists I feel, and have always felt, something about her and myself that I am certain I do not feel. To me, it is something she fervently believes I believe, and she desperately holds onto said belief and it serves to keep her from being able to connect to me.

She also recently said she is not sure she can love anyone (speaking of romantic love). She mentioned this recently as we happened to be talking about a case where someone loved her but she didn’t love him back. The implication was she might not have ever actually loved me.

Bottom line, I think in some cases a partner withholds because of uncomfortable conflicts that are deep within and not likely to be examined and addressed. Early on, there might be incentive to keep in check the propensity to withhold (emotionally, physically). As time goes by, the incentive fades, disincentives grow, and the energy and intent to stay present and engage dries up.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> I see your point. But if she does feel that way, that is underpinned by entitlement. She wouldn't feel she was selling herself if she felt like his needs were equally worthy and his contributions were equally valuable.
> 
> If he were to tell her "a core value of marriage is that our needs are equally important and our accommodation of each other needs to reflect that" what do you think she would say? I think she would disagree, and that's the issue.
> 
> ...


It's an ordinary part of marriage, but talk about entitlement. It has not in my long lifetime been an entitlement that men get sex from their wives when their wives are not in the mood to have sex. That is something of a new attitude I'm encountering on these forums mostly. Women always had a say in it. Women can get pregnant, even with birth control. No woman I know has or would agree to have sex at the whim of her husband, though many of them probably felt like doing so at one time, but that too is not really a certainty. Women have always had their own desires and minds and good healthy self-respecting ones always exercised their options to say no when they felt they needed to, whether because after a fight or because he smells bad that day or because she's exhausted. 

Women, like men, want to have sex when they want to have sex -- and neither gets to have it every time they want it, because they're dealing with an other human being, not a sex doll. Believe me, even dating with both parties at maximum passion, I didn't get sex every time I wanted it. I got sex plenty, but if a man is dead to the world in the morning, then that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I had no thought that I was getting gyped. Because everyone is different and most people are not on the same sex schedule or have the same drive. It's a fact of life. 

I think she has some growing up to do otherwise, but I wouldn't want anyone I know to put out like a prostitute for any reason. I'd want them to find a way to stand on their own two feet, and that is what I hope she does, nambypamby as she does sound!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

PieceOfSky said:


> My analysis/guess of my marriage, and my wife:
> 
> My wife is conflicted. She intellectually understands sex is important, emotionally/bonding for me. Early in our relationship, she leveraged that to please me because she cared about me and our relationship.
> 
> ...


People shouldn't sit around and fuss over justifications for why they're not that into each other anymore. Sadly, if it gets to that point, time to just go separate ways. 

It's important for men to understand, too, that sex for women is not always all about orgasm. Especially younger years, it's about romance, not orgasm. Orgasm is not always the driving factor why women want to have sex. They like the attention and affection and closeness. Sometimes sex, especially sex someone picked up on porn sites, isn't at all romantic to them and just seems harsh and not affectionate and not loving. It can burst their romantic bubble, because women like to believe men are romantic, not just sexual, and some of them are, some of them are not.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> You notice that there are not many women women defending the behaviour of women who refuse to have sex with their husbands. But there must be a GOOD reason why the thought arises in the heads in the first place. For any of us who has at any point felt that she did not think it right to have sex with her husband, what was the reason? To any man who discussed this with his wife, what did she say the reason was?


I can tell you some of went through my wife's head as she avoided sex with me (she never outright refused). For many years my wife thought sex was an itch that sometimes needed to be scratched. Thus, she was never in the mood unless her hormones told her to be in the mood. For her that amounts to about 1-3 times per month. This lead to sex becoming a chore she needed to do to 'help' her husband scratch an itch. In her head she got to the point were she thought that sex was just for the man and women just do it out of the niceness of their hearts. In general she developed a bad attitude about sex and I have spent years trying to change that.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> People shouldn't sit around and fuss over justifications for why they're not that into each other anymore. Sadly, if it gets to that point, time to just go separate ways.
> 
> It's important for men to understand, too, that sex for women is not always all about orgasm. Especially younger years, it's about romance, not orgasm. Orgasm is not always the driving factor why women want to have sex. They like the attention and affection and closeness. Sometimes sex, especially sex someone picked up on porn sites, isn't at all romantic to them and just seems harsh and not affectionate and not loving. It can burst their romantic bubble, because women like to believe men are romantic, not just sexual, and some of them are, some of them are not.


My wife does not like affection and closeness.

She literally said in the beginning of our relationship, sex was not about connection or emotions for her, it was just physical. I literally told her for me the emotional aspect was a big part of it.

The bit about orgasm stemmed from the fact she thought she might have had nerve damage from childbirth. Orgasm had been easy for her before child birth, and for over a year afterwards not possible, even alone. It was a big concern. Relevance to OPs question was that possible nerve damage seemed like a possible culprit for a time, but somehow resolved, and got replaced with myriad other reasons.

There are any number of things sexually or romantically one could say I’ve done wrong. Don’t think it has anything at all to do with what I absorbed from porn. My use of porn was nearly zero during many nearly sexless years.

I can appreciate suggestions for improvement, and things to consider. I can also understand that someone that wired, somehow for whatever reasons, to withhold will withhold, and a partner in orbit around the withholder can pick him or herself apart looking inward for something to blame and change, and yet the root cause may not be inside or in his or her own behavior.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

hurt asking Marcy something, she answered it already in her thread. Deleting....


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

PieceOfSky said:


> My wife does not like affection and closeness.
> 
> She literally said in the beginning of our relationship, sex was not about connection or emotions for her, it was just physical. I literally told her for me the emotional aspect was a big part of it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I wasn't saying it was you and porn, but talking more in general what can happen there. Your wife may indeed have had nerve damage from childbirth. Of course, if it was never about closeness for her, though, she doesn't sound like a very feeling individual and I wonder why either of you married the other. Why would someone who isn't about closeness even get married?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's an ordinary part of marriage, but talk about entitlement. It has not in my long lifetime been an entitlement that men get sex from their wives when their wives are not in the mood to have sex. That is something of a new attitude I'm encountering on these forums mostly.


Just to be clear, I’m not at all thinking anyone is “entitled” to have sex with their partner. I can’t relate at all to that sort of thinking. It appears some who are vocal think in such terms. I’m not convinced it is a relatively large number.

I’m concerned about mismatched desires, what the factors driving the mismatch are, what people are feeling or failing to feel, understand or not understand, what can be done about the mismatch and to close the gap, and what people can learn from aspects of their situation and what action seems optimal.

Reminds me we are not all in the same conversation all the time here.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yeah, I wasn't saying it was you and porn, but talking more in general what can happen there. Your wife may indeed have had nerve damage from childbirth. Of course, if it was never about closeness for her, though, she doesn't sound like a very feeling individual and I wonder why either of you married the other. Why would someone who isn't about closeness even get married?


My guess:


I think she has a propensity to feel very deeply and strongly, but not just good things but also hurt. Someone with such propensities learns to retreat within to avoid pain. At other times, they engage and make themselves vulnerable. The back and forth isn’t voluntary.

I think the model Richard Schwartz describes about how there are many internal parts to our personality driving our behaviors make sense:






Internal Family Systems Model - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Her essence is loving and good. She has many good qualities. I love her. But she puts up her shields sometimes. And, my guess is, part of her unavailability to me is related to protecting herself from hurt. Some which I might be responsible for, but I have surely tried.

There is probably anger and resentment involved too. (Anger at least is related to hurt.)

She may have married me because I convinced her to, against her better judgement. I was full of optimism about what is possible, in the realm of love and partnerships. She might also have seen me as her best chance to have kids. For sure, it was a long engagement (4.5 years) and she drug her feet.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's an ordinary part of marriage, but talk about entitlement. It has not in my long lifetime been an entitlement that men get sex from their wives when their wives are not in the mood to have sex. That is something of a new attitude I'm encountering on these forums mostly. Women always had a say in it. Women can get pregnant, even with birth control. No woman I know has or would agree to have sex at the whim of her husband, though many of them probably felt like doing so at one time, but that too is not really a certainty. Women have always had their own desires and minds and good healthy self-respecting ones always exercised their options to say no when they felt they needed to, whether because after a fight or because he smells bad that day or because she's exhausted.
> 
> Women, like men, want to have sex when they want to have sex -- and neither gets to have it every time they want it, because they're dealing with an other human being, not a sex doll. Believe me, even dating with both parties at maximum passion, I didn't get sex every time I wanted it. I got sex plenty, but if a man is dead to the world in the morning, then that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I had no thought that I was getting gyped. Because everyone is different and most people are not on the same sex schedule or have the same drive. It's a fact of life.
> 
> I think she has some growing up to do otherwise, but I wouldn't want anyone I know to put out like a prostitute for any reason. I'd want them to find a way to stand on their own two feet, and that is what I hope she does, nambypamby as she does sound!


I agree and think you're missing my point. Of course sex isn't an entitlement to be had regardless of what else is going on. I never expected sex as an absolute and never will. I had a kid in the hospital for over a year at varying times and practice what I preach.

What I AM saying is that when your spouse exerts himself or herself and you take from that to meet your wants and needs, you create a responsibility to reciprocate and meet his/her wants and needs in return. You don't get to do less and you don't get to judge the worth of your partner's needs.

Example: let's say you want something nice put together in the back yard. Plant some nice shrubs, build a gazebo, take your pick. It does nothing for me but since you asked and I want you to have what you want, I cheerfully get it done. So far, so good.

Later, I'm in the mood and suggest we go to bed early. It's an ordinary day - not particularly good or bad, nothing gets left undone by carving out time for sex. You're not feeling it and haven't been for a while. What do you do?

If you decline, why? And given that you're not inclined to meet my needs, why would you ask me to meet yours anyways?

Sex isn't an entitlement between a husband and wife, but neither is any other "non-essential". It's not a quid pro quo - it's a matter of "do you respect me to put as much effort in as I do?"

Here, the OP's friend expected her H to be available and meet her needs regardless of his own being met. He was meeting a big need for her or she wouldn't be scrambling to ensure that the marriage continues.

The problem wasn't not having sex with him per se. It was that she expected to go about her life with rock-solid commitment from him regardless. When you look at your partner and think "he will stick around regardless of lite sex" you are the entitled one.

The problem that I've seen and experienced myself is some people (typically but not necessarily ladies) feel sex IS less important and/or the guy's wants are less important.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

But it's your home too, and your kids' home. It's not just her home. She's trying to make it a good home for the family. Certainly, you can always tell her to do it herself or hire it done. That's better than doing it and then expected quid pro quo in the form of sex.

She's given birth and nursed your kids for you and more than likely done at least her half of the housework, so I'm afraid you'll always end up owning no matter how many gazebos you build. Trading goods for sex isn't quid pro quo. She's doing much much more than that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But it's your home too, and your kids' home. It's not just her home. She's trying to make it a good home for the family. Certainly, you can always tell her to do it herself or hire it done. That's better than doing it and then expected quid pro quo in the form of sex.
> 
> She's given birth and nursed your kids for you and more than likely done at least her half of the housework, so I'm afraid you'll always end up owning no matter how many gazebos you build. Trading goods for sex isn't quid pro quo. She's doing much much more than that.


It's an imperfect analogy, but the one I had at hand. We could come up with a wide range of things a man would do for her with no value to himself. Doesn't change my position.

But, your comment of "so I'm afraid you'll always end up owning no matter how many gazebos you build" is exactly what I mean. Women come into an attitude of "he owes me" and that is the opposite of equality. This is what leads to the attitude of "he should stick by me even without sex" and surprise / anger when he doesn't.

A man could similarly claim he works as hard as she does albeit in different areas (if he's not a jerk, and some guys are) and doesn't owe squat. The only solution is to move forward with the understanding that their needs are equally important.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

DTO said:


> I agree and think you're missing my point. Of course sex isn't an entitlement to be had regardless of what else is going on. I never expected sex as an absolute and never will. I had a kid in the hospital for over a year at varying times and practice what I preach.
> 
> What I AM saying is that when your spouse exerts himself or herself and you take from that to meet your wants and needs, you create a responsibility to reciprocate and meet his/her wants and needs in return. You don't get to do less and you don't get to judge the worth of your partner's needs.
> 
> ...


lots of talk here. Not arguing the validity. Good arguments.

just an FYI. There are I suspect a lot of couples who enjoy sex enough that they want it regularly and neither party suffers, but rather it’s a mutually enjoyed subject that brings them closer. I think that’s what both deserve to feel like—- that the other wants them. If not, all this work? Crap, I would t want to do it either if I didn’t want to. It’s either they fell out of love, or are incompatible due to sex. I say if it’s incompatibility on sex only, there needs to be an alternative to sex for the starved spouse discussed. Sadly, I don’t know how that would work because I’d feel badly if I was the pass user, and worse as the pass giver.... rough stuff. Of course, I haven’t been starved so may very well not feel to bad as the pass user in that situation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> It's an imperfect analogy, but the one I had at hand. We could come up with a wide range of things a man would do for her with no value to himself. Doesn't change my position.
> 
> But, your comment of "so I'm afraid you'll always end up owning no matter how many gazebos you build" is exactly what I mean. Women come into an attitude of "he owes me" and that is the opposite of equality.


Well, kids are a lot more of what marriage is about than anything else, so it's a big thing. If she is working just as hard as you are doing things, then it is about equality, and most women I know do at least as much and usually more with the kids and all the stuff around the house. I don't think sex should be relegated to a duty.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, kids are a lot more of what marriage is about than anything else, so it's a big thing. If she is working just as hard as you are doing things, then it is about equality, and most women I know do at least as much and usually more with the kids and all the stuff around the house. I don't think sex should be relegated to a duty.


Well if a guy is not pulling his weight then he needs to fix that before complaing. Individual situations vary but the relative workload considering home, kids, and work should be split equally.

I agree you should feel free to deny sex. But if you have a good partner who pulls his or her weight, you should not be free of the consequences of doing so. I know it's a controversial stance but I stick by it. If you cut me off yes I'll continue to serve you for a while and lead by example. But if you persist and don't make a serious and lasting change, I'm going to do me as much as you do you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I just don't think sex should be considered a thing you have to do around the house, that's all. I think most women would be disturbed, to put it mildly, if their man stopped sharing the duties one does to maintain a household because of sex. I think they'd stop cooking dinner and cleaning the bathroom quicker than you could say boo and it wouldn't be long until they called an attorney. So just know that that is going to be the reaction, not offering up sex, quite the opposite. I certainly don't recommend suggesting this type of quid pro quo to any woman and expecting good results. It will only poison her on you for good.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I just don't think sex should be considered a thing you have to do around the house, that's all. I think most women would be disturbed, to put it mildly, if their man stopped sharing the duties one does to maintain a household because of sex. I think they'd stop cooking dinner and cleaning the bathroom quicker than you could say boo and it wouldn't be long until they called an attorney. So just know that that is going to be the reaction, not offering up sex, quite the opposite. I certainly don't recommend suggesting this type of quid pro quo to any woman and expecting good results. It will only poison her on you for good.


Not stop doing duties, stop being available to her. I did this after a lengthy period of almost zero sex failed to result in improvement.

Bills still got paid, chores still got done, her car was maintained but I cooked and bought what me and our daughter wanted, didn't take her out, no family-type stuff She got invited to whatever I planned for me and our daughter if she didn't have her own plans, but that was it. It's called the 180.

I did it because things were so bad being single was preferable.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

And? Did that result in loving lovemaking?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And? Did that result in loving lovemaking?


The point wasn't to compel her to just do it. It was mainly for my benefit to refocus my time and energy. It also provided her space and time to reflect and work on her personal issues hindering the marriage.

She made a half-hearted effort which petered out. But at least she took me seriously; she would have not made that brief effort otherwise. 

The point is I demonstrated I was done with the status quo. Just telling her I done didn't make a dent. I figured whether we made it or didn't, I'd be better off and I was right.

My only regret was not doing it sooner. I lost years I could have had someone who felt that special way about me.. Life is too short to be with someone who doesn't want you. 

Did you see the part earlier about her never really being into sex with me (she would say sex in general)? She never would have admitted it if I hadn't shaken things up and allowed her to continue blowing me off.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

So basically, it was your last shot at seeing if you could change what she was doing, but it worked as a catalyst to end the relationship. I agree you probably should have done it sooner. Seems like we regret more the things we don't do than the things we did.

Wasn't she passionate about you before you married? I mean, I guess I'm a little bit of a different kind of woman, but geez, I'd never marry someone I wasn't nuts about. But I do realize that familiarity breeds contempt over time very often and ruins things.

So how are you doing now as a single man? Are you planning on looking for another wife, or are you over that completely?


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> My analysis/guess of my marriage, and my wife:
> 
> My wife is conflicted. She intellectually understands sex is important, emotionally/bonding for me. Early in our relationship, she leveraged that to please me because she cared about me and our relationship.
> 
> ...


The word LOVE does not mean the same thing to any two people as far as I can work out. There are people who are really loved who feel they are not, and there are people who are loving who feel the have no love to give, yet again there are people who are really happy but are not loved that much, but are not aware of it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So basically, it was your last shot at seeing if you could change what she was doing, but it worked as a catalyst to end the relationship. I agree you probably should have done it sooner. Seems like we regret more the things we don't do than the things we did.
> 
> Wasn't she passionate about you before you married? I mean, I guess I'm a little bit of a different kind of woman, but geez, I'd never marry someone I wasn't nuts about. But I do realize that familiarity breeds contempt over time very often and ruins things.
> 
> So how are you doing now as a single man? Are you planning on looking for another wife, or are you over that completely?


I would say I removed myself from an unhealthy dynamic where I was put down for having a sex drive yet expected to serve her faithfully. Yes it would have been nice if she came around but it was more about self-care.

As far as before marriage, there was some sex (more than after marriage). I was her first and she asked that I be patient but said my wants and needs were fine. As I noted she knew that if she was truthful I would have refused to marry her, so she flat out lied.

It only went downhill from there. I guess that is not surprising as she never was really into.

I'd like to remarry at some point, although having learned my lesson it will be a really long courtship and she'll have to treat me acceptably. I won't do "it will get better later" again.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

She doesn't really sound normal sexually, not if she was like that even during courtship. Did you marry her when she was young or was she an older virgin?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She doesn't really sound normal sexually, not if she was like that even during courtship. Did you marry her when she was young or was she an older virgin?


We married early 20s and first had sex over a year before then.

I agree she's not normal, but neither is she so outrageous that my experiences are irrelevant. I'm sure she's not the only lady to marry for practical gain; a counselor I spoke to said it's fairly common with people with her upbringing. Neither is she the only woman to throw away her promises after marriage or to play dirty in a divorce. Lots of women do that.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Except for religious fervor, older virgins may just be that way because they aren't that sexual. So it can be a red flag.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

What is the latest, maichi?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> I see your point. But if she does feel that way, that is underpinned by entitlement. She wouldn't feel she was selling herself if she felt like his needs were equally worthy and his contributions were equally valuable.
> 
> If he were to tell her "a core value of marriage is that our needs are equally important and our accommodation of each other needs to reflect that" what do you think she would say? I think she would disagree, and that's the issue.
> 
> ...


THESE are GREAT points!!!!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> All members here need to work together to reduce the impact of disparity between spouse pairs. What do we need to do and how do we need to do it. I have listened to much crying in the last few days. I think we almost all agree that she invited it to herself. But how did that thought start in her head. How can this be avoided in any marriage. It is sad to listen to and sad to imagine.
> 
> We must discuss how this might arise and how it might be avoided. The younger ones need to have more confidence in the institution of marriage and its ability to last the type periods that our grandmothers/fathers clocked in their marriages. How did they do it?


Both sexes need to have empathy for each others nature and try to use that nature go give each other joy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> My analysis/guess of my marriage, and my wife:
> 
> My wife is conflicted. She intellectually understands sex is important, emotionally/bonding for me. Early in our relationship, she leveraged that to please me because she cared about me and our relationship.
> 
> ...


What I don't understand about stories like this is if the impasse is insurmountable why do you guys stay together. Why not at least broach the subject of calling an end to it. At least that would make you both think about where you want to be.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DTO said:


> The problem wasn't not having sex with him per se. It was that she expected to go about her life with rock-solid commitment from him regardless. When you look at your partner and think "he will stick around regardless of lite sex" you are the entitled one.


These are some really good posts about this stuff. Like I always say on here, you marry someone because you want to give yourself to them, but if you live your marriage like that and your partner shows you they are in the marriage mostly to take it won't survive. I also think someone who is emotionally secure enough to want to give themselves is also emotionally secure enough to leave eventually. 

Wives if your husband no longer wants to have sex with you you should assume your marriage is in big trouble. Conversely if you wife stops sharing with you emotionally, husbands you should also assume your marriage is in big trouble. 

General statement and not always true but I think a lot of times it is.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> You notice that there are not many women women defending the behaviour of women who refuse to have sex with their husbands. But there must be a GOOD reason why the thought arises in the heads in the first place. For any of us who has at any point felt that she did not think it right to have sex with her husband, what was the reason? To any man who discussed this with his wife, what did she say the reason was?


Did you ask your friend why she thought/felt the way she did ...and then why she felt it appropriate to tell Nick off and express herself the way she did? As in, really what was at the crux of it for her. And why she now (potentially) feels different/upset for what she said?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

sokillme said:


> What I don't understand about stories like this is if the impasse is insurmountable why do you guys stay together. Why not at least broach the subject of calling an end to it. At least that would make you both think about where you want to be.


Short answer, because this isn’t my thread:

People remain where they are for a variety of reasons, most unnecessary, unhealthy, and unwise.

I chose to stay as long as I did because I wanted the time with my kids, wanted to be their only dad, had fears about divorce, I’m wired with a bias towards getting lost trying to solve problems that are too hard, and then there is inertia and general fear of change. Many things I’ve probably failed to list.

Gave a short series of “If you don’t want to engage in solving our problems, if you can’t say you want to have a romantic relationship with me, then I’m going to divorce.” That was over a year ago (after about 20 struggling years) moved into spare room then, and led my life with the expectation we would tell the kids and file at some convenient time, and for once felt somewhat at peace and “alone not lonely”. Kid has one semester before flying the coup.

Recently, a serious health crises occurred, and we (I) have circled the wagons and will see what she is capable of, emotional engagement wise, once the surgery and treatments are behind her. The trauma has forced her to lower her shields a bit, but that may be temporary. If temporary, I’m less inclined than ever to accept a one-way relationship for my lot in life. Ironically/dangerously, I’m more capable of accepting it and enduring it than ever.

Had I a chance to do it again differently, I would. Less fear. More looking out for my own needs.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I also think someone who is emotionally secure enough to want to give themselves is also emotionally secure enough to leave eventually.


Emotionally secure enough to leave — sure, I am now. Took me awhile to get there. But, depending on how you define it, being emotional secure isn’t all that is required to leave. Vision/self-concept, and self-valuing has to align just so. Probably other things as well. Maybe “emotionally mature” is what folks need to leave.

At 54, having led a thoughtful life with my eyes open, I am emotionally secure enough to live on emotional crumbs for a decade or two. Not a virtue. A capacity to cope can inhibit some of us from moving.

I probably got used to the dynamic growing up, caring about someone while seeing my needs as secondary or intrusive. I focused on doing the right thing to alleviate/not-exacerbate my mother’s depression and unhappiness. That dynamic probably feels “normal” to me deep down. Or something like that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

PieceOfSky said:


> *Had I a chance to do it again differently, I would.* Less fear. More looking out for my own needs.


THIS is the worst part for people who stay, I think.
I've never heard anyone who struggled for years say it was worth it...and it makes me SAD.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Lest week I asked if they would consider for for help. 
Yesterday she has announced that she is going to the doctors to as what might be her problem with her. She says her marriage is damaged and it is all her fault. Her husband has always liked sex so it must be her with the problem. He has not touched her for more than five weeks now.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> Lest week I asked if they would consider for for help.
> Yesterday she has announced that she is going to the doctors to as what might be her problem with her. She says her marriage is damaged and it is all her fault. Her husband has always liked sex so it must be her with the problem. He has not touched her for more than five weeks now.


She's right in that her outburst about his sex drive are the variable here.

You might suggest she consider what she will do if the medical tests don't turn anything up. Is she going to double down? Given that she wants to save the marriage, you might warm her up to the idea of adjusting her mindset to be more accepting of sex.

Besides her possibly low drive, she got the thought that he's too horny from somewhere.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> All members here need to work together to reduce the impact of disparity between spouse pairs. What do we need to do and how do we need to do it. I have listened to much crying in the last few days. I think we almost all agree that she invited it to herself. But how did that thought start in her head. How can this be avoided in any marriage. It is sad to listen to and sad to imagine.
> 
> We must discuss how this might arise and how it might be avoided. The younger ones need to have more confidence in the institution of marriage and its ability to last the type periods that our grandmothers/fathers clocked in their marriages. How did they do it?


How DID the thought start in her head, as you clearly stated, and the best question.

What did she say brought it into her mind?

???


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> Lest week I asked if they would consider for for help.
> Yesterday she has announced that she is going to the doctors to as what might be her problem with her. She says her marriage is damaged and it is all her fault. Her husband has always liked sex so it must be her with the problem. He has not touched her for more than five weeks now.


She is on the right track. This is a start. But it's not just a physical problem. She needs to understand what his desire for her is about emotionally. What sex was for him. I think she is starting to get it because she feels the way he felt.

She need to learn empathy.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

MaiChi said:


> Lest week I asked if they would consider for for help.
> Yesterday she has announced that she is going to the doctors to as what might be her problem with her. She says her marriage is damaged and it is all her fault. Her husband has always liked sex so it must be her with the problem. He has not touched her for more than five weeks now.


Mai Chi is she attracted to her husband? Physically? Have you asked her this?


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

bandit.45 said:


> Mai Chi is she attracted to her husband? Physically? Have you asked her this?


Yes she is and she loves him a lot. Always done. She also likes sex. However, something in her head says there is such a thing as too much sex. She acted this out with her husband and tried to pass the same thoughts to him. She is worried about it and is going to the doctor for assessment. Hopefully she will be told to go and sex away merrily as I think there is nothing wrong with her. sometimes we listen to our workmates or read silly information in books and form silly ideas forgetting we are unique individuals.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Was she from a religious family... puritanical upbringing?


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## marriedfor27years (Oct 29, 2009)

Diana7 said:


> Wow that was mean and cruel, no wonder he is hurt. My husband's ex was a bit like that, making him feel like a freak for wanting sex more than once a week. He eventually sort of gave up after feeling rejected so many times.


ex thats the key word here. she will soon be an ex.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

MaiChi said:


> Hopefully she will be told to go and sex away merrily as I think there is nothing wrong with her. sometimes we listen to our workmates or read silly information in books and form silly ideas forgetting we are unique individuals.


How did this finally turn out? Your recent post on another thread reminded me of my curiosity. Did your friend's "Old Man" find someone else who would happily have sex with him? Or did he give his wife another opportunity to disrespect him or what?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

MaiChi said:


> I asked her how she decided that he might be too old for sex and she said she had looked it up on google what the averages were for his age group. I tried to explain that averages were just that, averages but individual people may vary. She still said he wants it too much. I explained to her that people living in old people's homes have instances of STIs meaning they are having sex.
> 
> Its since gone further and she says she is trying to get forgiveness.


Please tell your friend that while she was probably frustrated, those in a committed marriage try to be nice to each other and care for each others emotional health. My suggestion is that she apologize and ask that the two of them immediately seek marriage counseling.

What happened between them was basically a fight for power. She wanted to "change" him. You can't change your spouse, all you can do is ask and hope that they change themself. What he is doing is withdrawing from the marriage. He is doing that to spare himself from being hurt by her. If this keeps up their marriage will spiral out of control.

This is truly sad.


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