# I guess man up only works as long as you can do it...



## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

To the nice guys out there trying the man up method... what do you do to keep up with not being nice when being nice was/is your nature? I slipped back and now my husband is witholding more than ever and not talking to me, calling me names, telling me to die. 

Im manning up bc he is like a woman when it comes to traditional married roles except for work, and I was the dutiful nice wife, like you nice guys. While I was manning up, he was having sex with me again, calling and messaging me during the day, cleaning... even grocery shopping for himself (those were all the things I was giving him but he wasnt having sex with me).

Its very hard for me to keep this up bc I like a clean house, I love cleaning, I love cooking and I love sex, I even like grocery shopping... its relaxing. SO I work out and read and go on the computer instead. Although it really doesnt matter bc Im not getting sex.

He let a week go by claiming he "forgot about it" it being sex, for the whole week (even with me initiating at least 2 times, which he says he doesnt remember) and then came to me Friday morning and I said no, you havent had sex with me all week when I initiated so no. Then, he didnt allow us to have sex the whole weekend and for the foreseeable future... basically he is back into one of his moods of wishing I was dead and that he was back in his prior house... so he has the power again... Im up the creek without a paddle. Having an affair was much easier and it made my husband happy too bc I wasnt coming to him for sex. Should I just go back that way? I dont want to but I have got the female equivalent of blue [email protected] all the time. Helping myself is only slightly a relief. I just have a sex drive.... its horrible being the woman in this position bc women are typically the ones who choose when and that helps make them feel attractive and desirable... I dont think I could do it with anyone else right now bc I feel so pissed of at how easy this would be to fix and my husband wont do his part, when Im fully willing to do my part (cook, clean, and not ask for sex... thats all he says he wants me to do, but when I do it, he still doesnt have sex with me, he will let months go by if I do those things.....) Im at wits end here. Im to the point of leaving, if I could, but I cant afford it and I dont want the kids to know whats going on if I say we are moving to my mom s house for a while. Honestly, if I moved out for a while I think it would fix things for him and he would want us back, but Im not going to bring the kids into this stupid problem, that shouldnt be a problem at all.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

toolate said:


> To the nice guys out there trying the man up method... what do you do to keep up with not being nice when being nice was/is your nature? I slipped back and now my husband is witholding more than ever and not talking to me, calling me names, telling me to die.
> 
> Im manning up bc he is like a woman when it comes to traditional married roles except for work, and I was the dutiful nice wife, like you nice guys. While I was manning up, he was having sex with me again, calling and messaging me during the day, cleaning... even grocery shopping for himself (those were all the things I was giving him but he wasnt having sex with me).
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, toolate, I don't know much about your history. Are you saying that you had an affair on your husband? If so, then some of his actions - his pulling back, purposefully withholding, nasty comments to you - make some sense in that it appears that perhaps he has not been able to forgive you.

Should you have another affair? No. What good would that even remotely do? Nothing but create a bigger mess. You would be better to end the whole farce and just move on if it truly gets to that point for you. imho.

What have you two done to try and reconcile things? Have you ever considered MC, or even just IC for yourself to try and determine why there is this neediness in you - I don't think it's all just a high drive - I think there's more than a physical reason there for you.

Best wishes.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

1. You are a woman, manning up is for men. The term for what I think you want to do is "woman up".

2. Manning up has nothing to do with not being nice, it's about not being nice to get approval.

3. You can't change someone else, it seems like by trying to "man up" you are trying to get him to react a certain way, and he is not so you are becoming resentful - that is actually a very basic niceguy trait, you are falling into the trap.

4. Being a nice guy is about not giving a sh!t what others think, its about having integrity and acting on it and only let people who earn your respect by treating you properly close to you.

5. WTH are you doing bringing your affair talk into this? Are you still trying to justify it? If so, just leave him. He probably does need a shakeup, and If you think a separation will achieve that then do it... but from what I can tell the reason he is witholding sex from you is because he doesn't feel respected (by others or himself) - that mostly comes from within him but there are definitely things you do to affect it, I really don't think you manning up is going the right way to fix things at all, just the opposite - you may think the gender roles are reversed but that is probably a huge contribution to the problem.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Enchantment said:


> I'm sorry, toolate, I don't know much about your history. Are you saying that you had an affair on your husband? If so, then some of his actions - his pulling back, purposefully withholding, nasty comments to you - make some sense in that it appears that perhaps he has not been able to forgive you.
> 
> Should you have another affair? No. What good would that even remotely do? Nothing but create a bigger mess. You would be better to end the whole farce and just move on if it truly gets to that point for you. imho.
> 
> ...


I guess you dont know much about my history, thats ok. So, here it is in a long nutshell.

Husband and I dated and had a great relationship, he opened ME up to sexuality as I had never seen/experienced before. After 2 1/2 years we bought a house, got married and then he stopped having sex with me. AND, not just stopped having sex with me but also coming home and scanning the house to see if the coffee had been prepped for the morning or all the beds made, house immaculate... any one of these not to completion and he would with hold sex as my "punishment." Initially, this made me try harder and do more make sure I didnt make any mistakes and leave anything undone... but it didnt help, he would start a fight and then say that we werent having sex... wait, he would say "we were going to have sex, but not now."

After a year of this, I went and had an affair, privately, and my husband was never happier in our marriage! The difference, and the only difference is I was happy bc my needs were being met and he saw how happy I was and initiated sex like crazy, so I ended the affair bc it was just for that sex need, and husband stopped having sex with me again. Im not in the mindset at all that there is any benefit for the marriage for one to tell the other about an affair... he told me after we were married 2 months that he could go have sex with anyone he wanted and I would never know... this is the kind of crap I have had to try to figure out and deal with. My therapist taught me not to try to figure it out bc I cant, its Borderline Personality Disorder and I have to accept the way it is or move on. I dont necessarily agree with the BPD 100%, even though I see many elements of it (now that we r married and his other side came out). But, he has periods of time when he almost returns to a part of that man I knew before and then he sabatoges the good time and blames it on me (therapist said thats the BPD). 

I guess Im in denial that he has this BPD, bc I dont want to face it, and some things seem to work, but only for a little while. If it is true BPD, he has gone out and had the affair he so threatened me with 2 months into the marriage. He also cried he wanted a divorce for months, but didnt mean it, he was just trying to find any new thing that would bother me (he never followed through and later said its not what he wants). Its a roller coaster.

His behavior now, has nothing to do with the affair, he has no idea, nor would have any way of knowing, he was being this way well before and continues the same stuff. I just wanted a little connection with someone bc my husband refuses and has refused and abused. When he is especially "on" he states how he wishes I would just die, that he wants to stay married bc he can torture me more that way... the list goes on. But then, he gets better and all those comments go away. Once I get comfortable, he stirs things up again. My therapist worked hard to get me to not internalize these comments so he couldnt wear my psychological well being down.

I wish I had never fallen in love with him, but I do still care deeply for the person I know is inside and comes out now and again... its that other side of him that is so hurtful and he will never see what he does... if it is BPD anything bad he does, he believes I did... I think its projection or splitting off. Something. Its like swimming for air, faster and faster and you just cant get there... anything you try gets turned around onto you and made to seem to be a bad thing, even when it was a good thing.

This is why I resorted to the man up approach... of course, its difficult for me to keep it up bc its not my true nature to not be nice and do for others.

I hope this helps clear the history up a bit.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

toolate said:


> Its very hard for me to keep this up bc I like a clean house, I love cleaning, I love cooking and I love sex, I even like grocery shopping... its relaxing. SO I work out and read and go on the computer instead. Although it really doesnt matter bc Im not getting sex.


Why would you ever stop doing things that are important to you and that you even enjoy?

Have you tried kicking him in the [email protected]$???


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Why would you ever stop doing things that are important to you and that you even enjoy?
> 
> Have you tried kicking him in the [email protected]$???


He would literally kill me or call the police and have me thrown in jail... so no I cant do that.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Ok - so - ignore the kicking - why stop doing things that are important to you?

That - to me - seems totally backwards...


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Why would you ever stop doing things that are important to you and that you even enjoy?
> 
> Have you tried kicking him in the [email protected]$???


As for the cleaning etc... I stopped doing them bc they are things he expects of me, demands of me, or he will punish me. So even though I like a clean house and to do the cleaning... the pleasure of it, doing it for genuine purpose has been removed by his controlling abuse about it.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

toolate said:


> As for the cleaning etc... I stopped doing them bc they are things he expects of me, demands of me, or he will punish me. So even though I like a clean house and to do the cleaning... the pleasure of it, doing it for genuine purpose has been removed by his controlling abuse about it.


So exactly the same way he is witholding sex from you? It seems there is a standoff, who will be the first to put some trust in the other and will it really be "toolate"?


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Lon said:


> So exactly the same way he is witholding sex from you? It seems there is a standoff, who will be the first to put some trust in the other and will it really be "toolate"?


Very insightful. Hence the name? I thought it was toolate when I signed up with that name.. I wasnt playing with him back then, just spinning my wheels trying harder and harder to be a better wife. But hey, he wasnt giving me sex for years before I did this... not that you will give me a :smthumbup: for that


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

toolate said:


> As for the cleaning etc... I stopped doing them bc they are things he expects of me, demands of me, or he will punish me. So even though I like a clean house and to do the cleaning... the pleasure of it, doing it for genuine purpose has been removed by his controlling abuse about it.


Sorry if I should know this from reading elsewhere - but how would he punish you for not cleaning?

I still think that anytime we give up something important to us (a clean house) - then we've lost the battle.

Is there something that is truly important that you do primarily for HIM that you could give up?


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Lon said:


> So exactly the same way he is witholding sex from you? It seems there is a standoff, who will be the first to put some trust in the other and will it really be "toolate"?


I see! So he sees me as demanding and controlling and punishing with regards to sex? What man thinks that way? Most men are like "Ill have sex with you!" So taking away the expectation for sex... actually literally is "not having sex again until we are getting along with each other." That was the gift I gave him today, bc that is what he said recently about the sex issue. so if I take away the demanding, controlling, punishing... he will in turn want to [email protected] me again? Just like if he were to stop controlling, demanding and punishing for the cleaning, I would want to do it again.

Confucious say... you are very wise man! :allhail:


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

toolate said:


> I slipped back and now my husband is witholding more than ever and not talking to me, calling me names, telling me to die.


I'm sorry but if its come to him name calling and telling you to die just because you back slid on "manning up" then maybe you're with the wrong person. 

I get "manning up" to a point, but at the same time, if someone feels they have to keep "manning up" so there partner will be nice, not call names or whatever etc, then yeah they are with the wrong person IMO. Sorry.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Sorry if I should know this from reading elsewhere - but how would he punish you for not cleaning?
> 
> I still think that anytime we give up something important to us (a clean house) - then we've lost the battle.
> 
> Is there something that is truly important that you do primarily for HIM that you could give up?


He would walk in the door, glare around the kitchen and scan the area, then he would venture upstairs to check on things... if not to his liking, he would not say hello, and give me the cold shoulder and tell me we werent having sex bc I didnt do my job. So If everything was done but the coffee... still no sex. He used to with hold it from me like that bc he knew it was something I desired with him. My therapist taught me to make it clear that him taking it away didnt punish me anymore. Thats when he moved on to other things like insults, silent treatments for weeks... total ignoring of me, even around the kids... it was horrible on them, telling me I was useless, threatened to cancel my car insurance or health insurance, not show up at kids events that he said he was going to, telling me to just die, or wished I die everyday when I get on the highway, or that he would kill me but he would go to jail, or kill himself so I live with the guilt.... Im numb to everything at this point. I could fall in love with him again if the man I fell in love with comes back again...

As for things I do for him...grocery shopping, he hates grocery shopping. Oh, watching tv with him at night. making the beds. Prepping the coffee. I like to clean the house, he likes neatness... neatness is optional after its clean in my book... and by neatness I mean having only 1 pile of magazines would be considered un-neat to him. He doesnt care about the dog hairs or the sneeze spots on the floor from the dog, or the dust... those would be for me... so maybe Ill go clean those things! Ill leave the coffee and he already made the bed bc I stopped making it over a week ago. I also step on his back when he asks, I give him back rubs... but if I dont do those he will tell me Im a b!tch.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

toolate said:


> I see! So he sees me as demanding and controlling and punishing with regards to sex? What man thinks that way? Most men are like "Ill have sex with you!" So taking away the expectation for sex... actually literally is "not having sex again until we are getting along with each other." That was the gift I gave him today, bc that is what he said recently about the sex issue. so if I take away the demanding, controlling, punishing... he will in turn want to [email protected] me again? Just like if he were to stop controlling, demanding and punishing for the cleaning, I would want to do it again.
> 
> Confucious say... you are very wise man! :allhail:


I think attraction for a man can be just as complicated as it is for anyone else... by attraction it is not only physical beauty that counts, it really does come down to feeling desired and I think for a lot of guys they can be really successful at feigning ignorance in order to convince themselves they are still desirable by their mate. In your H's case he can't really fake it right now, but the ways he is sabotaging his relationship with you are obviously very succesful, and that definitely needs to stop. That's why I asked you if you have specifically told him what you wrote about him being hot enough to just letting him bang you, nsa...

You started this thread looking for ways you can "man up" so one thing I would do is take NG's advice here and just start taking care of yourself the way you want to, clean the house if you like it that way, doing the shopping if you enjoy it, doing the cooking etc (but only make eneough food for yourself until he starts to get it) and find a way to just tune out whatever irrelevant criticism he makes be it passively or outright - you will likely feel unappreciated but just try to remember you're doing these things for yourself so he can just go f himself. And if you decide not to do anything then so be it as long as you can cope with the consequence of not having it done. As for sex, you may need to find ways to take care of your own business, the internet and amazon.com is pretty helpful for that but don't bring another man into your marriage.

And like I suggested before, if there is something you want him to do don't be afraid to ask it (explicitly - not by secretly expecting it).

Once you have your life going the way you like it (and let go of the resentment), if he is not willing to join in, you've been specific and clear and he still is unwilling to let go of his resentment, then cut him free and divorce him.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

toolate - see Deejo's response on the other thread - about "some people"

Starting to think his response there is dead on...sadly...


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

trey69 said:


> I'm sorry but if its come to him name calling and telling you to die just because you back slid on "manning up" then maybe you're with the wrong person.
> 
> I get "manning up" to a point, but at the same time, if someone feels they have to keep "manning up" so there partner will be nice, not call names or whatever etc, then yeah they are with the wrong person IMO. Sorry.


:iagree:

No one should be name calling and telling another person they should die anyway, manning up or not. Something is seriously mentally off with that.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Lon said:


> I think attraction for a man can be just as complicated as it is for anyone else... by attraction it is not only physical beauty that counts, it really does come down to feeling desired and I think for a lot of guys they can be really successful at feigning ignorance in order to convince themselves they are still desirable by their mate. In your H's case he can't really fake it right now, but the ways he is sabotaging his relationship with you are obviously very succesful, and that definitely needs to stop. That's why I asked you if you have specifically told him what you wrote about him being hot enough to just letting him bang you, nsa...
> 
> You started this thread looking for ways you can "man up" so one thing I would do is take NG's advice here and just start taking care of yourself the way you want to, clean the house if you like it that way, doing the shopping if you enjoy it, doing the cooking etc (but only make eneough food for yourself until he starts to get it) and find a way to just tune out whatever irrelevant criticism he makes be it passively or outright - you will likely feel unappreciated but just try to remember you're doing these things for yourself so he can just go f himself. And if you decide not to do anything then so be it as long as you can cope with the consequence of not having it done. As for sex, you may need to find ways to take care of your own business, the internet and amazon.com is pretty helpful for that but don't bring another man into your marriage.
> 
> ...


Lon, thank you.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> toolate - see Deejo's response on the other thread - about "some people"
> 
> Starting to think his response there is dead on...sadly...


Where is this post?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Just "bumped" it - in the "Do all men want sex" thread...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Basically what I was saying in the other thread, and I have said in many threads, in many ways ...

is that you can do the best you can to recover a sense of balance for yourself, and in so doing, your partner becomes more attracted as well.

What I found through experience ... and have seen any number of times here on the forum is that if you are attempting to 'man up' solely for the purpose of winning your partner back, the odds are very, very bad. But ... there is this subtle shift when you internalize the changes you make and acknowledge that they are for yourself ... not your partner.

It's virtually impossible to describe until you have actually crossed over.

Moreover, you may simply come to realize that your partner isn't worth fighting for ... particularly if all they are interested in is fighting with you.

In it's simplest, not over-thinking it way ... some people suck. No matter how hard you try to engage or understand them.

They can't get out of their own way, and they me be just fine with that, or they may be miserable ... but it isn't something you 'fix'.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Some amazing things happened this morning that fit both helping make my life more consistent (I have a crazy irregular custody schedule that leaves all my days up in the air at everyone's whim and different).

1) My husband actually got all the way through a talk about what we should do to get out of the no sex-fighting cycle ...he never finishes and turns it into an argument instead, so this was a big accomplishment! So perhaps standing my ground in the face of all his resistance was the right thing. He is proud of himself even... after I thanked him for getting all the way through he said yeah, its big on my end to bc talking is difficult. Wow #1.

2) My son wants to move here with me which opened up a conversation with his dad about options, which HE was open to! I hadnt brought it up with him (son has been asking for a few months) bc I figured he would say no way. I was shocked when he said if it makes him happy and its what he wants to do... Im open. So, we talked about feasibility and it may not work bc his sister may not want the same thing and then I would be driving like a chicken with my head cut off even more. So, being the adventurous person I am (and my ex is open to ecclectic ideas as well) I put out there, that I could be at his house in the afternoons, bc the kids are getting older, want a "home base feel" and Im available... plus I would only drive up and back once per day instead of up and back and then up and back again. I would be home to my husband at a time that many wives get home from work, and I would have the added luxury of being home much of the day to prep dinner and clean before I leave for my "job." My ex is open to trying this out and kinks need to be worked out, but wow, this would be a huge relief for me. I wouldnt need to be up there everyday bc at their age now, they like the after school program... so only 2-3 days a week... but it would cut hours off my commute... literally hours (I could shave about 2 hours *a* *day* off my commute time). Wow #2.

I hope this isnt one of those moments that seems too good to be true, but if all this really came together this morning, its a miracle

Maybe one day I could write a book about me and my 2 husbands!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

toolate said:


> I see! So he sees me as demanding and controlling and punishing with regards to sex? What man thinks that way? Most men are like "Ill have sex with you!" So taking away the expectation for sex... actually literally is "not having sex again until we are getting along with each other." That was the gift I gave him today, bc that is what he said recently about the sex issue. so if I take away the demanding, controlling, punishing... he will in turn want to [email protected] me again? Just like if he were to stop controlling, demanding and punishing for the cleaning, I would want to do it again.
> 
> Confucious say... you are very wise man! :allhail:


It is a WISE decision to not have sex until you are getting along better. especially if it's being used as a punishment. You recently posted that since he denied you all weekend, when he did ask, you said no. It becomes a game. Both of you are guilty of it. To say "let's just have sex"... doesn't always work in a marriage. It's NOT just sex. And all men don't think that way about their wives. Do you feel that way about your husband? Is it just sex? And it means nothing to you?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

> ...so if I take away the demanding, controlling, punishing... he will in turn want to [email protected] me again? Just like if he were to stop controlling, demanding and punishing for the cleaning, I would want to do it again.


If I sound wise its only because I have learned through experience (and it cost me a lot) that witholding things from someone you love in order to control them doesn't work it only distances you from each other. Over the course of my marriage my stbxw and I would take turns witholding sex or witholding doing chores in order to express our general dissatisfaction, and I think while we both did so we failed to see that the other was also doing the same thing. It is very destructive and just brings more dissatisfaction.

The solution would be to just do the chores and enjoy sex with each other and if there were needs that weren't being met to try to isolate them and deal with the root cause, but it is definitely difficult to find the common ground when one or both spouses has the wrong mindset.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Lon said:


> If I sound wise its only because I have learned through experience (and it cost me a lot) that witholding things from someone you love in order to control them doesn't work it only distances you from each other. Over the course of my marriage my stbxw and I would take turns witholding sex or witholding doing chores in order to express our general dissatisfaction, and I think while we both did so we failed to see that the other was also doing the same thing. It is very destructive and just brings more dissatisfaction.
> 
> The solution would be to just do the chores and enjoy sex with each other and if there were needs that weren't being met to try to isolate them and deal with the root cause, but it is definitely difficult to find the common ground when one or both spouses has the wrong mindset.



The last paragraphnis what I was trying to get husband to do by me continuing to do the things thta were important to him. I did this for nearly 2 1/2 years while he played his game. I got sick of it and joined the game. It does not make me proud at all... I didnt want to say no to him last Friday but felt like I had to bc he tries to "not condone" things with his removal of love. Im just hopeful that he came around to talk all the way through it, instead of fighting:smthumbup:

Deejov: we do get along except for the no sex-fight cycle. We both like the same things and have the same sleep cycle which really helps out bc we are both up before the b_tt crack of dawn He said this morning when we made our decision how to go forward... that he will be that man I fell in love with all over again, he wants to be that man and he wants me to be that woman... we are just a little bit aged from this whole ordeal, but the person(s) are still there! ill keep you updated. Thanks for bearing with me, as this seems like such a complicated situation, but it was only complicated bc 2 heads were butting so severely (and his poor behavior... I had some too, but not like his). maybe it was me being so non chalant this morning, I mocked him like he usually mocks me... "God sent me to you bc he knew I was the only one strong enough to equal you." Actually, his mocks are meaner... he is much better at it than I am. I dont know what made it click this morning that he wouldnt let click for 2 1/2 years, but Im glad.


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