# I'm screwed. Didn't get the D done before my anger wore off



## LucasJackson

That damn divorce busting sh*t works. We're going to work it out. Want to call me an idiot? Be my guest. I'm already calling myself one. Zero tolerance for cheating sounded so good on paper. Oh well, now I'm one of those guys that I call crazy. At least I got a wee bit of "fun" in for myself before our "recommitment" to each other. The details of which the wife is fully aware of.

If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


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## becareful2

You can't just leave us hanging without details on the change of heart?


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## CantBelieveThis

Nothing to be ashamed of man, you didn't do anything wrong, you were just placed in a horrible situation without any say on it... Keep your chin up and be strong. Remember you can always end things and D. No one can take that choice away from you. 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars

LucasJackson said:


> That damn divorce busting sh*t works. We're going to work it out. Want to call me an idiot? Be my guest. I'm already calling myself one. Zero tolerance for cheating sounded so good on paper. Oh well, now I'm one of those guys that I call crazy. At least I got a wee bit of "fun" in for myself before our "recommitment" to each other. The details of which the wife is fully aware of.
> 
> If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


Yes..

It may be too early for congrats.....

You are right....*talk is cheap*....reminds me of men who long for battle and war. When they and their dream become one....their words do not *armor* become.


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## becareful2

How many APs did she have? Did she ever come clean about the number? Whatever happened to the mind movies? Did your anger just got worn off or did you become too antipathetic to start over again?


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## EllisRedding

I couldn't do it, bet definitely wishing you the best of luck


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## aine

All the best, I do hope it all works out for you and she bends over backwards undoing all the damage of the past.


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## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> You can't just leave us hanging without details on the change of heart?


It was gradual. I had been softening. Plus, I know every minute detail, however heartbreaking and disgusting, about the cheating. It was about the experience and the sex with different people. It wasn't about love. I've confirmed that with AP(s). There was never any talk about anyone leaving their spouses for anyone else. It was all depravity/camming/nasty rendezvouses/etc. About like a typical male cheater that's in it for the sex but not love.

Don't get me wrong, the sex part hurt. Emotionally hurt worse than anything I've ever experienced and I was a kid that was horribly abused by a live-in nanny and my father. That wasn't as bad as being betrayed by my wife.

I believe, however, she did not betray me with her love/heart. I might be splitting hairs here but to me that did make a difference. I feel that I have received my "pound of flesh" over this. Of course we'll take it slow. All the rules that WS's must comply with she has been more than willing to do. I don't even ask for them all. I don't need her to report here whereabouts to me 24/7. If I felt I did need that then I'd bolt right away. That's no way to live.

I go in eyes wide open. Any sign of trouble and I'm gone. There will be no tears from me if that happens because I've already shed them all.

I would have sworn she didn't have a chance. If there weren't some financial complications then I'd have already been gone. Time + her using the divorce busting techniques has "earned" her another chance. We'll see.


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## MarriedTex

What "pound of flesh" have you insisted upon? This is key. Has she experienced truly negative consequences from her actions.

Fortunately, I have never had to face this. I don't know what I would insist upon that could make things right.


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## jld

LucasJackson said:


> That damn divorce busting sh*t works. We're going to work it out. Want to call me an idiot? Be my guest. I'm already calling myself one. Zero tolerance for cheating sounded so good on paper. Oh well, now I'm one of those guys that I call crazy. At least I got a wee bit of "fun" in for myself before our "recommitment" to each other. The details of which the wife is fully aware of.
> 
> If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


Very mature post, LJ! 

I am very happy for you, your kids, and your wife!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kivlor

@LucasJackson 

It's hard to stick to those guns, especially regarding someone you've been with for a long time. We aren't completely rational beings, we are emotional, and carnal creatures. You said you've got a 13yo together, so you've been with each other for 14+ years. Hard to just trash it, and unbelievably hard to do so if your WW is trying to make amends and rekindle that relationship.

I hope she's changed, and won't do this ever again. 

PS I've got several family members who agree with you regarding the "just sex" vs "giving their heart" issue. They all seem to think they could forgive a PA if there was no emotional connection, but if their wife gave her heart to another man... well that's a bridge too far. I think a lot of men feel this way.


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## jorgegene

you're right, life is not so black and white as some people say.

i can speak as one like you that had been cheated on in at least a couple of relationships.

the first i gave her another chance. looking back, i was a total fool and i think she cheated a lot more than she admitted.

the second i gave her two. she was into actually into her third cybercheating (and who knows what else) when i finally left her.
and i was no hero believe me. 

so in other words i know exactly what you mean. 

love and other things often gets in the way of reality.

maybe (i hope) your wife has learned her lesson. if not, remember your vow to leave her for good.

fools we are. but we do the best we can and if that's not enough, we try harder.


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## Bananapeel

That's nothing to be ashamed about. You get to choose your own path through life and change course when you see fit to do so. I hope it works out for you and your family.


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## LucasJackson

CantBelieveThis said:


> Nothing to be ashamed of man, you didn't do anything wrong, you were just placed in a horrible situation without any say on it... Keep your chin up and be strong. Remember you can always end things and D. No one can take that choice away from you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


Three. Two that were one time meetups, one basically raped her in a hotel room, that's when she realized the danger of what she was doing. One main AP that was in her boat. Married a long time, only ever had 1 sexual partner, midlife crisis, blah blah blah. They were coworkers.


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## LosingHim

I smiled when I read this. Not because your wife “won” but because I don’t like divorce LJ. We are all flawed, some of us in major ways. You are making a huge choice of forgiving those flaws and giving the life that you once knew a second chance. That is not all bad. 

My husband was in the same boat as you. For 4 months he told me he had to divorce me, he had to keep his self respect intact, he was NOT going to put up with what I did, it was what had to be done. The only way to ensure I never hurt him again was to leave me. 

Many people here said that he was never going to make me leave, but it sure as hell felt like it when I was online Christmas shopping for my son and he asked me if I was taking the entertainment stand in the living room when I moved. When he told me to take both dogs because he didn’t want to split them up, when I asked him so many times during the procedure of buying my house that he was 100% sure that he wanted me to proceed, the times he told me he had zero interest in working anything out with me. 

I didn’t try to love bust him or anything like that. I didn’t try any ‘covert tactics’ to win him back. I honestly think the only thing that ‘saved’ me was time. My dad was cosigning on my home loan so that I could get a VA loan and save some money. VA loans take longer to close. I ended up staying in my home a few months longer than expected. Had I closed sooner, had I moved out to an apartment temporarily…..we may not be together today. I was 1 week to the day from closing when he asked me to stay. I’m one of those people who thinks all things happen for a reason and I think there are reasons why the seller originally backed out of selling the house which started my search over again (thus prolonging my stay), there is a reason they then decided to go ahead and sell, there’s a reason my dad volunteered to cosign so I could get a VA loan, thus dragging out the closing. There’s a reason I didn’t move out to an apartment in the meantime, there’s a reason he didn’t want to tell people we were splitting up. I think in your case – there are reasons the financials didn’t work out, things slowed down. And the reason is, this is where you are meant to be.

I wish you the best of luck. And I pray you are one of those success stories that comes out better than before. There is no shame in deciding to stay, there is no shame in letting love win when someone owns their mistakes and makes strides to right their wrongs. There is no shame in making the decision you feel is best for you and best for your family. 

Good luck to you and your wife.

P.S. I am 100% sure she is over the moon with joy right now. Many people may say she doesn’t deserve that joy, but believe me, she is feeling it.


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## Truthseeker1

LosingHim said:


> P.S. I am 100% sure she is over the moon with joy right now. Many people may say she doesn’t deserve that joy, but believe me, she is feeling it.


she doesn't deserve that joy but i wish Lucas the best.


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## GusPolinski

LucasJackson said:


> That damn divorce busting sh*t works. We're going to work it out. Want to call me an idiot? Be my guest. I'm already calling myself one. Zero tolerance for cheating sounded so good on paper. Oh well, now I'm one of those guys that I call crazy. At least I got a wee bit of "fun" in for myself before our "recommitment" to each other. The details of which the wife is fully aware of.
> 
> If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


Sucker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Herschel

I hate the idea of "always wondering".


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## GusPolinski

LucasJackson said:


> I go in eyes wide open.


This should include a full and complete awareness -- on BOTH your parts -- w/ respect to the fact that, had she not been busted, she'd still be doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> This should include a full and complete awareness -- on BOTH your parts -- w/ respect to the fact that, had she not been busted, she'd still be doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is the thing about catching the WS - had they not been caught they'd still be doing it in many cases...many Bs confuse fear of consequences with remorse...I dont know how you forgive that without acknowledging they in fact are getting a pass for their sordid behavior...


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## WorkingOnMe

Rugswept.


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## EunuchMonk

GusPolinski said:


> Sucker.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_












I agree with another poster that it isn't always black and white. To think about the families involved(in-laws) and your friends having to take sides.


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> Three. Two that were one time meetups, one basically raped her in a hotel room, that's when she realized the danger of what she was doing. One main AP that was in her boat. Married a long time, only ever had 1 sexual partner, midlife crisis, blah blah blah. They were coworkers.


I don't know how you have sex with her. 

I would find my wife repulsive knowing all this. I wouldn't want to have sex with her ever again. Even if we did reconcile it would be a sexless relationship.


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## GusPolinski

EunuchMonk said:


> I agree with another poster that it isn't always black and white. To think about the families involved(in-laws) and your friends having to take sides.


_That's_ your argument?

Seriously...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EunuchMonk

GusPolinski said:


> _That's_ your argument?
> 
> Seriously...?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not an argument. Just facts. Many find it hard to just detach from someone they have known for maybe seven plus years.


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## SunCMars

What I am going to say is not a criticism. Hardily that..........butt me, handily a complement.



You are an Egg. Hard on the outside...soft on the inside. Me too.

The inside of you [egg] has Whites and a Yolk. No Yolk Jokes.

The White yields mind-vaccine when needed and cushions the soul , the Yellow Yolk is not fearful and has protein for growth.

Eggs are graded on how much air is in them. You are AA, low air [head] rated.

But Eggs such as you and I can be heated by Ambient Forces who wish us harm or burn us [unbeknownst/indifferently] are their wicked ways. Eggs in War are Cannon Fodder....for the Kings and Princes on the home front.

When a Wayward Wife cooks your soul, she uses not a Microwave, she uses a bonfire built from the marriage bed, all the bits and pieces of the "marriage hard wood" as tinder.

Apparently, by your Accounting and vouched "as too and true" by your ego.....your egg was par-boiled, nay....soft cooked by her. Their is some soft White and some soft Yolk left. I attribute this to an extra hard shell. Most eggs shells are thin...fragile. Kudos too you.

If WS forever damps her destructive fire..... good.

Else not, the Egg hardens all the way through. It can never be Reconciliated to Soft, again. Not by caressing the shell, kisses, potions, insertion into nether-regions. 

All the Kings Men and his Lackeys can never Reconcile the "Good Egg" that WAS YOU.


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## MattMatt

LucasJackson said:


> That damn divorce busting sh*t works. We're going to work it out. Want to call me an idiot? Be my guest. I'm already calling myself one. Zero tolerance for cheating sounded so good on paper. Oh well, now I'm one of those guys that I call crazy. At least I got a wee bit of "fun" in for myself before our "recommitment" to each other. The details of which the wife is fully aware of.
> 
> If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


So, from what you are saying now, divorce might have been a bad or at best least good option for you?

Just as well you didn't divorce then, perhaps? 

I hope it works out for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jb02157

I guess it depends on how much you're willing to forgive and how much she's willing to stop seeing others. I hope she knows how damn lucky she is that you're willing to let her come back. For me once trust is broken, it's broken.


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## EllisRedding

Kivlor said:


> PS I've got several family members who agree with you regarding the "just sex" vs "giving their heart" issue. They all seem to think they could forgive a PA if there was no emotional connection, but if their wife gave her heart to another man... well that's a bridge too far. I think a lot of men feel this way.


Not to wish ill will on anyone, but I would love to see this "theory" put to test by your family members ....


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## Lostinthought61

lucas did you expose the cheaters to their wives? and is she still going to work with these people?


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## GusPolinski

EllisRedding said:


> Not to wish ill will on anyone, but I would love to see this "theory" put to test by your family members ....


My issue is w/ trusting that the WS is being truthful about it having been "just sex".

And let's say you do believe that -- how do you reconcile that your spouse was willing to risk his or her marriage, family, future, etc for "just sex"?

I'd be left feeling pretty unimportant to my wife in either case.

But hey, since I care about her, why not give her all the "just sex" she wants?

Not w/ me, of course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful2

What has she done to show that she is truly remorseful?


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## EllisRedding

GusPolinski said:


> My issue is w/ trusting that the WS is being truthful about it having been "just sex".
> 
> And let's say you do believe that -- how do you reconcile that your spouse was willing to risk his or her marriage, family, future, etc for "just sex"?
> 
> I'd be left feeling pretty unimportant to my wife in either case.
> 
> But hey, since I care about her, why not give her all the "just sex" she wants?
> 
> Not w/ me, of course.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Exactly, so have a PA, tell your spouse it was just sex and nothing else, they forgive, rinse and repeat ...


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## bandit.45

SunCMars said:


> What I am going to say is not a criticism. Hardily that..........butt me, handily a complement.
> 
> 
> 
> You are an Egg. Hard on the outside...soft on the inside. Me too.
> 
> The inside of you [egg] has Whites and a Yolk. No Yolk Jokes.
> 
> The White yields mind-vaccine when needed and cushions the soul , the Yellow Yolk is not fearful and has protein for growth.
> 
> Eggs are graded on how much air is in them. You are AA, low air [head] rated.
> 
> But Eggs such as you and I can be heated by Ambient Forces who wish us harm or burn us [unbeknownst/indifferently] are their wicked ways. Eggs in War are Cannon Fodder....for the Kings and Princes on the home front.
> 
> When a Wayward Wife cooks your soul, she uses not a Microwave, she uses a bonfire built from the marriage bed, all the bits and pieces of the "marriage hard wood" as tinder.
> 
> Apparently, by your Accounting and vouched "as too and true" by your ego.....your egg was par-boiled, nay....soft cooked by her. Their is some soft White and some soft Yolk left. I attribute this to an extra hard shell. Most eggs shells are thin...fragile. Kudos too you.
> 
> If WS forever damps her destructive fire..... good.
> 
> Else not, the Egg hardens all the way through. It can never be Reconciliated to Soft, again. Not by caressing the shell, kisses, potions, insertion into nether-regions.
> 
> All the Kings Men and his Lackeys can never Reconcile the "Good Egg" that WAS YOU.


:surprise:

That is some deep sh!t man.


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## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> My issue is w/ trusting that the WS is being truthful about it having been "just sex".
> 
> And let's say you do believe that -- how do you reconcile that your spouse was willing to risk his or her marriage, family, future, etc for "just sex"?
> 
> I'd be left feeling pretty unimportant to my wife in either case.
> 
> But hey, since I care about her, why not give her all the "just sex" she wants?
> 
> Not w/ me, of course.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Basically in such a case what the WS is saying is they repeatedly betrayed their WS for nothing - they put their families at risk and their BS's health at risk for people who they could care less about..that is a lot of destruction for what amounts to meaningless sex with meaningless people...


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## VladDracul

becareful2 said:


> Whatever happened to the mind movies?


The previews about her being back in his arms again offsets the mind movies. I've said before when you put all the cards on the table most men will not divorce their wives over her affair(s).
My only caveat to reconciliation is discovering, and fixing, the reason for the affair. Few women get involved in an affair just to get laid. Of course Im open to be schooled by any woman who disagrees.


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## bandit.45

Edited for stupidity


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## bandit.45

VladDracul said:


> The previews about her being back in his arms again offsets the mind movies. I've said before when you put all the cards on the table most men will not divorce their wives over her affair(s).
> My only caveat to reconciliation is discovering, and fixing, the reason for the affair. Few women get involved in an affair just to get laid. Of course I open to be schooled by any woman who disagrees.


There have been a few wayward wives come through TAM who just wanted to bang some strange. They had happy marriages and were not feeling neglected. They were just bored. It has happened many times. 

Women are different from men... but not that different.


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## jld

VladDracul said:


> My only caveat to reconciliation is discovering, and fixing, the reason for the affair. Few women get involved in an affair just to get laid.


Totally agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

jld said:


> Totally agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree. I don't think there always has to be a past trauma or past dysfunction for a person to want to have sex with several partners. I don't think it always has to do with validation or poor self esteem. Those excuses get played too often. 

There are some women who are freaky. Some I say...not the majority. 

My inclination is to think that OP's wife is just not monogamous. She's fighting her real nature. She thought she could have her fun on the side and still be a wife and have OP there for her daily loving. The LTA OM was her fantasy man, a respite from the day to day grind. 

I don't think she was unhappy with OP. He simply couldn't provide her enough of what she was wanting... lots of sex with lots of different people. 

She is greedy. Greed and lust are just as powerful motivators as any emotional problems are.


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## drifting on

Lucas

Nothing to be ashamed of, sometimes we think we know how we would handle certain situations, and we find its not what we thought we would do. Now you have offered the gift of reconciliation, the hard work is about to begin for you now. Just remember, even though you offered reconciliation doesn't mean you may not divorce later in the process. I'm not trying to say you can't reconcile, but you may find some of what you need to do more difficult then you thought. 

Your wife has said she didn't become emotionally involved and that it was just sex. This confirmed by you after talking to her AP's. You say you are going in eyes wide open, then I say do that, but your eyes aren't fully open in my opinion. Just because they never spoke of leaving either spouse doesn't mean her hurt wasn't in it. What you need to see is she gave herself to someone completely. I struggled with this greatly, my wife gave herself completely to another man. OM have himself completely, so emotions were involved, no matter if you think they were or not. 

I'm not trying to change your mind, scare you with the difficulties of reconciliation, but rather show you what you will need to accept. It's hard , trust me. But in order for renciliation to work you have to accept all facets of her affair, you have to accept emotions were involved. I tell you this to prepare you for what's coming down the tracks at you. 

You will need to self reflect, find and fix the problems you brought to the marriage. This is hard without blaming the other, you are fallible also, and that is on you. The affair is completely on your wife, but half the marriage problems are yours. If you can do these things then that's great, but if you can't, reconsidering reconciliation may be in your best interest. 

I wish you the best Lucas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VladDracul

bandit.45 said:


> They had happy marriages and were not feeling neglected. They were just bored.


Being by nature soft spoken and highly diplomatic, playing the devils advocate is very hard for me to do. But can a boring marriage really be a happy marriage? 
At any rate, if you want to reconcile with one of these vixens, you better get the boredom under control or she may say something to cause another guy to have it in for you.


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## GusPolinski

@bandit.45, note that @VladDracul said _few_ women, not _no_ women.

That said, I do think it's more prevalent than it once was, especially since many women aren't as financially dependent upon their husbands as their mothers and grandmothers were.

Turn on the TV or radio, pick up a magazine, or read just about anything online -- affairs are trendy. And hey -- men have been having "just sex" for... well, forever! Why can't women?

Stuck in a rut? Feel like you're losing yourself to the stresses of day-to-day life? Thinking about hitting your husband in the face w/ a skillet the next time he asks, "Hey, what's for dinner?" ...?

Have an affair!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

LosingHim said:


> I smiled when I read this. Not because your wife “won” but because I don’t like divorce LJ. We are all flawed, some of us in major ways. You are making a huge choice of forgiving those flaws and giving the life that you once knew a second chance. That is not all bad.
> 
> My husband was in the same boat as you. For 4 months he told me he had to divorce me, he had to keep his self respect intact, he was NOT going to put up with what I did, it was what had to be done. The only way to ensure I never hurt him again was to leave me.
> 
> Many people here said that he was never going to make me leave, but it sure as hell felt like it when I was online Christmas shopping for my son and he asked me if I was taking the entertainment stand in the living room when I moved. When he told me to take both dogs because he didn’t want to split them up, when I asked him so many times during the procedure of buying my house that he was 100% sure that he wanted me to proceed, the times he told me he had zero interest in working anything out with me.
> 
> I didn’t try to love bust him or anything like that. I didn’t try any ‘covert tactics’ to win him back. I honestly think the only thing that ‘saved’ me was time. My dad was cosigning on my home loan so that I could get a VA loan and save some money. VA loans take longer to close. I ended up staying in my home a few months longer than expected. Had I closed sooner, had I moved out to an apartment temporarily…..we may not be together today. I was 1 week to the day from closing when he asked me to stay. I’m one of those people who thinks all things happen for a reason and I think there are reasons why the seller originally backed out of selling the house which started my search over again (thus prolonging my stay), there is a reason they then decided to go ahead and sell, there’s a reason my dad volunteered to cosign so I could get a VA loan, thus dragging out the closing. There’s a reason I didn’t move out to an apartment in the meantime, there’s a reason he didn’t want to tell people we were splitting up. I think in your case – there are reasons the financials didn’t work out, things slowed down. And the reason is, this is where you are meant to be.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck. And I pray you are one of those success stories that comes out better than before. There is no shame in deciding to stay, there is no shame in letting love win when someone owns their mistakes and makes strides to right their wrongs. There is no shame in making the decision you feel is best for you and best for your family.
> 
> Good luck to you and your wife.
> 
> P.S. I am 100% sure she is over the moon with joy right now. Many people may say she doesn’t deserve that joy, but believe me, she is feeling it.




Losinghim

No, you did what is so rare, you owned your crap, you changed into a better person, you made J feel safe, you showed incredible a resilient resolve to love. Few waywards get it like you do, and yet you were strong and have grown as a person. That is why you have this second chance, because of what you have on the inside driving you to a better life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

VladDracul said:


> Being by nature soft spoken and highly diplomatic, playing the devils advocate is very hard for me to do. But can a boring marriage really be a happy marriage?
> At any rate, if you want to reconcile with one of these vixens, you better get the boredom under control or she may say something to cause another guy to have it in for you.


Yeah but would he want to? With her? I wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful2

Is the pound of flesh you alluded to mean you dated around?


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## GusPolinski

becareful2 said:


> Is the pound of flesh you alluded to mean you dated around?


I'm wondering about that myself, especially since he mentioned in one of his initial threads that he hadn't partaken in any of that, and would refrain from doing so until his divorce was final.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim

becareful2 said:


> Is the pound of flesh you alluded to mean you dated around?


I took it to mean he either had sex with one or more women. But could be wrong. 



On a side note, I don't like the turn this thread is taking.....I'm sure the decision to stay was hard enough for him and now TAM is rubbing his nose in his decisions. :crying:


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## becareful2

LosingHim said:


> On a side note, I don't like the turn this thread is taking.....I'm sure the decision to stay was hard enough for him and now TAM is rubbing his nose in his decisions. :crying:


Without knowing the details to determine how truly remorseful she is, I honestly haven't form an opinion on this R one way or the other. In your case, I would support R. In Lonely Husband's case, I would support R. In Lucas' case, there's not much for me to go on, so I'm undecided. I'm just glad I'm not in his shoes.

Edit to add: In your case, you did the least damage, imo, because you stopped it midway through. That to me meant the most deserving of an R. Lonely Husband's case is second and it was painful to read in the beginning but once I saw how truly remorseful his wife was, I could see how R was the right choice. The jury is still out on Lucas' case.


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## VladDracul

bandit.45 said:


> I wouldn't.


I with you there Bandit. Too much other land to explore and homestead on.


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## LosingHim

becareful2 said:


> Without knowing the details to determine how truly remorseful she is, I honestly haven't form an opinion on this R one way or the other. In your case, I would support R. In Lonely Husband's case, I would support R. In Lucas' case, there's not much for me to go on, so I'm undecided. I'm just glad I'm not in his shoes.


Agree. His focus here thus far has been ending the marriage with a cheating spouse. He hasn’t painted her in the best light. (I’m not saying he SHOULD have, I’m saying we saw his anger and thus heard only the bad things about her, the marriage, etc. with divorce as the final event)

Love Busters may have been how she decided to go the route of trying to win him back, which he himself laughed at – others have poked fun at. And for all I know might BE crazy BS, never read it. BUT, at the end of the day, she has shown SOMETHING he sees potential in. Given how adamant he was in divorce, the level of his disgust and anger – I’m going to err on the side of her being pretty remorseful. He doesn’t strike me as someone who would just “let it slide”.


----------



## GusPolinski

LosingHim said:


> ...I don't like the turn this thread is taking.....I'm sure the decision to stay was hard enough for him and now TAM is rubbing his nose in his decisions. :crying:


That's the turn that _this_ thread was always going to take.

What you've got here is a guy fighting against his own nature, making decisions w/ his wallet, and opting for the path of least resistance.

No thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LucasJackson

EunuchMonk said:


> Not an argument. Just facts. Many find it hard to just detach from someone they have known for maybe seven plus years.


For us it's 32 years knowing each other, 30 married this fall.


----------



## EllisRedding

EunuchMonk said:


> Not an argument. Just facts. Many find it hard to just detach from someone they have known for maybe seven plus years.


Agreed, could be very much based on one's personality. I would be able to easily detach from my W under these circumstances , my W would have a much more difficult time under the same circumstances (doesn't mean she loves me more than I love her, just our personalities and and how we handle interacting with others).


----------



## GusPolinski

LucasJackson said:


> For us it's 32 years knowing each other, 30 married this fall.


I'd feel like I didn't know her at all.

And besides, it's not like all that time together was so precious to her that it kept her from doing EXACTLY the things that so often bring about divorce.

Suuuuure... NOW she loves you. NOW she respects you.

What's _that_ worth?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CH

Luc, may the force be with you.

BTW, it's his life and his decision. It seems he's been playing the field also and is willing to call it even now and start over.

Most of our wives/husbands were not virgins. They probably did things that they've never done with us, we'll never know. Well in this case if you got the who story you would know exactly what happened. But IMO to Luc it's like a fresh start, the past is history.

Some people can do it and others can't. I know I couldn't but not everyone thinks or acts like me (thankful for that cuz this world would suck monkey *bleep*)

If he's made another mistake, it's his to make. But I'm going to hope for the best for both of you.


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## 225985

Three? WTF?? How many does it take?


----------



## GusPolinski

CH said:


> Luc, may the force be with you.
> 
> BTW, it's his life and his decision. It seems he's been playing the field also and is willing to call it even now and start over.
> 
> *Most of our wives/husbands were not virgins. They probably did things that they've never done with us, we'll never know. Well in this case if you got the who story you would know exactly what happened. But IMO to Luc it's like a fresh start, the past is history.*
> 
> Some people can do it and others can't. I know I couldn't but not everyone thinks or acts like me (thankful for that cuz this world would suck monkey *bleep*)
> 
> If he's made another mistake, it's his to make. But I'm going to hope for the best for both of you.


Completely invalid argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LosingHim

GusPolinski said:


> Completely invalid argument.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree that's not a valid argument. But I do agree with the rest of his post.


----------



## Truthseeker1

CH said:


> If he's made another mistake, it's his to make. But I'm going to hope for the best for both of you.


I agree with this..if the Bs has all the pertinent information and decides to reconcile then whatever suffering comes next they chose it..its not like the A where they had no choice in the matter in the case of a R and all its pitfalls the BS has chosen that path..no sympathy beyond the point of choosing to stay..


----------



## CH

GusPolinski said:


> Completely invalid argument.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gus, I was just directing it at bandit in trying to show the other side. I'm with bandit that I couldn't do it if my wife cheated on me (ironic isn't it from a WS). But I'm ok with her past knowing she's probably given BJs and and whatnot to her ex partners. But that didn't stop me from kissing her and doing other things to her.

I guess it's the betrayal that makes some of us shudder at having to touch our spouse if they cheated on us.

But some can separate the act and move on and try to rebuild a better marriage. What I was trying to get across was that the OP's old marriage is dead and it's like a new start for the both of them. You have to let go of the past to rebuild, if one person keeps re-living it, the marriage will never survive. People who live with hate and anger their whole lives turn into bitter people, always looking for the worst in life. It could be a perfect day out and they'll find the one little flaw just to say, ha what a horrible day it is.

Sometimes you get dealt a a bad hand in life. Some stare at it and ***** and moan relentlessly about what a crappy hand they have, while others throw it away and start over.


----------



## LucasJackson

Ok, I'll cover some background. We married at 19. She was a virgin, I was far from it. I've been faithful to her for going on 30 years. I was in a band in the 80's and took full advantage of the fringe benefits that afforded me. Although young when we got married, my wild oats had been sewn. I had zero desire to look at other women because I knew there was nothing special about any of them but there was something special about my wife.

Anyway, 20+ years go by, 3 kids, great lives, great marriage, etc. and we're very comfortable with each other. Sex is good but after that much time there's no surprises. I was ok with that, I knew there wasn't that much more out there that I hadn't done.

She hit a certain age and had a midlife crisis. Doubted so many things. Doubted herself, her chosen career, me, us, the kids, etc. She started new hobbies, made some new friends at work, started coming out of her shy shell and spreading her wings. I thought it was great.

One thing she didn't share with me was that with me being her only sexual partner, she wondered what all she had missed out on. She's an attractive woman, she has always been hit on over the years, but she always shut it down quick and kind of harsh so guys got the picture.

She decided she didn't want to be "mean" like that anymore. When guys flirted, she flirted back. She doesn't have much experience with men, other than me, so she thought that men could flirt and not expect anything more. She now knows that's not the case. She and a coworker that was also in a long term marriage became friends, then close friends, then f*ck buddies.

She knew it was wrong. She knew there was no love. They were using each other as a temporary escape from their long-term marriages/families both understanding exactly what it was. Trust me I've confirmed that backwards, frontwards, and inside out because that is the most important thing to me. If she gave anyone even one tiny piece of her heart then off with her head as far as I'm concerned.

During this adventure of hers she also met two other men from a dating site for cheaters. One of them she met for drinks and then they got a hotel room. She said he really sucked in bed. Yeah yeah, they all say that but she laughed about the way he acted and the things he did that he thought she would enjoy. I know every detail, a must-have requirement of mine.

The other guy raped her. She couldn't go to the police or I would have found out. There was also another reason. When they were talking about desires and fantasies she told him it would be hot to be helpless to a strong man. Have him hold her down and really "give it to her" where she's powerless to resist. What that fantasy turned into was he brutally raped her vaginally and anally and she really was helpless. I know that many would say "she got what she deserved" but she had to carry that alone. She couldn't go to anyone, not even me. That's when she stopped everything. The week it happened she told me she had the flu and just laid in the bed the entire week. I brought her food, sat by her side, and was worried about her.

After that experience she stopped everything. It all got real to her. She told her main AP they were done and he agreed. They still worked together but that was it. They were both "decent" people to begin with so there was no backsliding, no hard feelings. After a few months the guilt was eating him up so he confessed to his wife. We had met her a couple times at company functions. She liked us so insist that we be notified. He was too ashamed so she contacted me. Of course I didn't believe it but when I confronted my wife she immediately confessed and told me everything.

She TT'd me about the other two guys by omitting them completely at first. Still, I raged enough about the main AP that they wouldn't have mattered. I was furious. I contacted their work and reported everything. They both got fired. His wife threw him out. He ended up living out of state with his mommy for a while. That was hilarious to me. In my mind I wanted my pound of flesh. I wanted revenge. My wife was crushed. The kids and I were disgusted by her actions and said some very harsh things to her. Very harsh. I dabbled with the idea of R but not for too long. I told her we were done, I don't want a cheater. Cheaters are the scum of the earth, blah blah blah. I still kind of abstractly hate cheaters but now that has morphed more into hating the concept of cheating but not necessarily the cheater. Life isn't black and white.

We lived an in-house separate for a little while now. Separate rooms, I ignored her, was waiting and getting my ducks in a row to be gone. Kids wanted nothing to do with her. Keep in mind, she's still carrying the rape inside and now has lost her family and her AP to talk to. What's left for her? Well, I know now, she contemplated suicide but knew how I felt about people who do that. I always viewed them as cowards taking the easy way out (I've also softened that view as I've gotten older). She thought about just running away from everything and everyone and starting someplace new where nobody knew her. She said the thought of that made her even more suicidal because she'd never see us again. Third option, she found her faith.

Of course when I saw this I figured it was bullsh*t. Like those death row inmates that find Jesus. I've always been of the opinion, sure, now you found Jesus, AFTER you killed people. Anyway, she started going to church, praying, reading books on surviving affairs, helping spouses you've cheated on, etc. She also found the divorce busting website. When she told them her whole story they convinced her if she wanted any chance she had to tell everything. No lies by omission. No secrets. 

That's when she came to me and told me everything. I knew about main AP but this is when I found out about the other 2 and the rape. I have to admit I doubted the rape and thought this was her trying to manipulate me. As we talked I changed my mind on that pretty quickly. She finally opened up about it and literally fell to pieces. She had never talked about it with anyone. She told me how terrified she was and how badly he hurt her. She bled for a couple weeks after it happened. I felt so horrible but it didn't change my mind about divorce. I just thought there was no way I could recover from this betrayal and we'd be better off going our separate ways.

Well she kept DB'ing me. Following their advice about transparency, communication, validating my pain, blah blah blah. Fortunately for her I wasn't ready to leave yet so in some time it has softened my heart and my resolve. I understand that good people f*ck up sometimes and do bad things. The world isn't just black and white. She royally screwed up but one of the MC exercises is if you were on your deathbed right now, who do you want sitting by you. My God's honest answer to that question is still her even after all this.

As for the rape, we went to the police. They had us meet an ADA who told us that considering that my wife had shared with him that she wanted to be "forced" there would be no chance in hell of getting a conviction.

Here's what I've decided. We're going to MC now even though I've always thought those pencil-necked goobers were full of psycho-babble bullsh*t. I admit I don't know everything, I'm not as strict and unyielding on right vs wrong, and I sometimes need help. I love my wife. I forgive my wife. I feel absolutely horrible about what happened to her and more so that I didn't know so she had to carry that burden alone. I know it was self-induced burden but it was a horrible thing that happened. Since she opened up about it there have been several times where I hold her and she just cries for a half hour. She's going to IC for that and her MLC.

I firmly believe the MLC is far in her rearview mirror. According to her and the AP (who was finally invited back by his wife to attempt R, and that, BTW, was one of the reasons I considered it) that they didn't love each other. They were friends with benefits who both loved their spouses and families. I didn't buy that at first but I do now. I don't hate him anymore. I don't hate my wife.

Life is full of challenges. I think we can put this behind us. I feel as though the cheaters got their comeuppance. I don't think either of them are bad people. Some cheaters are, some aren't.

Am I over it? God no. I may never be completely over it. That's ok. I can work through that. As for having sex with my wife again. I was scared as hell to do that after I found out about the rape. She and I enjoy "vigorous" sex sometimes and I was terrified about triggering her so I was extra gentle but then she said that wasn't good either because I'm treating her like there's something wrong with her. As I said, I don't have all the answer. Nobody has them all. We'll work it out.

As for my part in the MLC and everything, I admit we were comfortable. I didn't cherish her as much as I should have. I didn't try to win her hand in marriage anymore. That hand was won so I got comfortable and complacent. Never mean or neglectful just not as romantic. She says that wasn't why she ended up cheating, that is was literally about sexual experimentation and not having regrets of just being with one partner for life but after all the reading I've done about relationships after this happened I recognize my own faults.

I'm sure I left out a ton of stuff but it's hard to remember every detail when you're writing it out. Today is she harder on herself over everything than I am. If I do something really sweet for her it sometimes sends her into a crying jag because it brings on guilt for cheating. We have a lot of work to do but neither of us are cheating, we love each other, and we want to spend our lives together. I think that's enough to work with to get started.

I wanted to get this out there because I've never really laid it out and a lot of posters were doing their best to help me with limited information. You'll notice I have moods where I'm still "off with their heads" when it comes to cheating but I vent that here and not at home. It's healthier that way.


----------



## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> For us it's 32 years knowing each other, 30 married this fall.


If you were going to leave you would have left within a couple of weeks of d-day. You stayed because you couldn't overcome your fear of being without her and turning your day-to-day life upside down forever. No shame - I understand that feeling well and know how powerful it is. 

So you got what you wanted all along. I hope the wounds her betrayal inflicted on you will heal eventually. One advantage to staying with her so long after d-day is that much of the shame and embarrassment you may have felt has worn off over time. It gets easier to convince yourself that what she did "isn't all that bad" and become comfortable with other rationalizations. 

Tell me - are you ashamed _for her_ because of her sl**ty behavior during her affair(s)? This is one of my main issues decades after my wife cheated on me. Over all these years I still have the overwhelming feeling shame and I wonder "how could you have been such a sl*t? How could you throw away your morality like that" and I feel shame for her. And of course I feel shame myself because not divorcing her feels like I am giving my tacit approval of her cheating. My self-esteem has been damaged permanently. I hope you are able to resolve all of these feelings and find peace of mind.


----------



## GusPolinski

CH said:


> Gus, I was just directing it at bandit in trying to show the other side. I'm with bandit that I couldn't do it if my wife cheated on me (ironic isn't it from a WS). But I'm ok with her past knowing she's probably given BJs and and whatnot to her ex partners. But that didn't stop me from kissing her and doing other things to her.
> 
> I guess it's the betrayal that makes some of us shudder at having to touch our spouse if they cheated on us.
> 
> But some can separate the act and move on and try to rebuild a better marriage. What I was trying to get across was that the OP's old marriage is dead and it's like a new start for the both of them. You have to let go of the past to rebuild, if one person keeps re-living it, the marriage will never survive. People who live with hate and anger their whole lives turn into bitter people, always looking for the worst in life. It could be a perfect day out and they'll find the one little flaw just to say, ha what a horrible day it is.
> 
> Sometimes you get dealt a a bad hand in life. Some stare at it and ***** and moan relentlessly about what a crappy hand they have, while others throw it away and start over.


First, there's "couldn't", and then there's "wouldn't".

As in...

"Gee, I don't think I could eat an entire bucket of sh*t."

...vs...

"Uhhh... none for me, thanks."

Second, there is no way for (most) women to do these types of things and have even the slightest bit of either love or respect for their husbands -- so what are they _really_ losing when their BHs opt for divorce? Clearly it's nothing that they valued.

She was living the life that she wanted. So let her have it, but w/ some other chump footing his half of the bills.

Now... with respect to the women that _can_ do these things w/ no love or respect lost for their husbands (at least their definition of love or respect)... what's the point? What guy wants to live the rest of his life wearing condoms just so he can have sex w/ his wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

LucasJackson said:


> *You'll notice I have moods where I'm still "off with their heads" when it comes to cheating* but I vent that here and not at home. It's healthier that way.


You might want to stop with that now that you have decided to R and dont really believe it..

Good luck...


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## LucasJackson

Truthseeker1 said:


> You might want to stop with that now that you have decided to R and dont really believe it..
> 
> Good luck...


I still have moments where some rage comes back and I'm overcome with the "how could you do this to us?" wave of anger. It's happening less and less. I'm dealing with it.


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## Truthseeker1

LucasJackson said:


> I still have moments where some rage comes back and I'm overcome with the "how could you do this to us?" wave of anger. It's happening less and less. I'm dealing with it.


what I meant was telling other BHs to ditch their wives...


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## LucasJackson

Truthseeker1 said:


> what I meant was telling other BHs to ditch their wives...


True. Some, I believe, should. Some BS's have a WS that don't want them anymore. We see a lot of BS's trying to save a marriage that the WS doesn't even want to be in anymore. Usually if I see that situation, or cheating before or right after the marriage started, or remorseless and/or serial cheaters, then I definitely say run, run fast, save yourself.


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## EllisRedding

Do you mind me asking, are you afraid of being alone? I mean, I understand that within the context of your marriage you had some role in things, but the whole "I didn't cherish her enough, I didn't try to win her hand in marriage anymore" just sounds completely empty given her actions.

Also, how do you know for sure she never gave the first guy any part of her "heart"? She called it off with him after the rape, correct, so maybe that is what scared her straight.

Do you believe if not for the rape she would have continued her ways?


----------



## Steve1000

LucasJackson said:


> If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


No one put more thought into this than you. Both choices would not be easy and either decision would have probably left you second guessing yourself. I hope you can recover and if it doesn't work out, you'll be more certain about what to do.


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## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> There have been a few wayward wives come through TAM who just wanted to bang some strange. They had happy marriages and were not feeling neglected. They were just bored. It has happened many times.
> 
> Women are different from men... but not that different.


...and if we men are being honest, the thought that our giant love missiles weren't enough for our wives really crushes the essence of our manhood. It did mine. I finally began to understand that it wasn't that mine wasn't enough, it's what you said. She wanted to try a different one.


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## Yosemite

I logged on just to respond to your thread and I didn't read all the posts only yours.

I believe you are setting yourself up for a world of pain by giving her another chance.

It's akin to climbing up a pile of loose rocks almost getting to the top and then just letting go and sliding all the way back down again.

You have gotten so far, its a shame to throw away all that progress.


----------



## Truthseeker1

LucasJackson said:


> True. Some, I believe, should. Some BS's have a WS that don't want them anymore. We see a lot of BS's trying to save a marriage that the WS doesn't even want to be in anymore. Usually if I see that situation, or cheating before or right after the marriage started, or remorseless and/or serial cheaters, then I definitely say run, run fast, save yourself.


Look you have chosen your path and i believe have all the pertinent information..whatever pain, obstacles or other challenges that come your way after this point are because of YOUR choices not your wifes. Good luck.


----------



## LucasJackson

EllisRedding said:


> Do you mind me asking, are you afraid of being alone? I mean, I understand that within the context of your marriage you had some role in things, but the whole "I didn't cherish her enough, I didn't try to win her hand in marriage anymore" just sounds completely empty given her actions.
> 
> Also, how do you know for sure she never gave the first guy any part of her "heart"? She called it off with him after the rape, correct, so maybe that is what scared her straight.
> 
> Do you believe if not for the rape she would have continued her ways?


I was actually looking forward to being alone. Marriage requires a lot of compromise by both partners. I liked doing whatever I wanted whenever I wanted with no one to check in with (other than my teenage daughter). At least I got a good taste of that while we were in-house separated. I did whatever I wanted.


----------



## GusPolinski

Yosemite said:


> I logged on just to respond to your thread and I didn't read all the posts only yours.
> 
> I believe you are setting yourself up for a world of pain by giving her another chance.
> 
> It's akin to climbing up a pile of loose rocks almost getting to the top and then just letting go and sliding all the way back down again.
> 
> You have gotten so far, its a shame to throw away all that progress.


I've read everything up to ^this^, and I'm in full agreement w/ it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

So LJ, are you saying that DB works? That a spouse can cheat multiple times, do some DB, say the magic words, and all is forgiven? Or is it YOU, not her words and not her actions, that decided not to divorce for YOUR reasons?


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## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> True. Some, I believe, should. *Some BS's have a WS that don't want them anymore*. We see a lot of BS's trying to save a marriage that the WS doesn't even want to be in anymore. Usually if I see that situation, or cheating before or right after the marriage started, or remorseless and/or serial cheaters, then I definitely say run, run fast, save yourself.


The point some of us are making is that when a woman cheats she has decided her husband is plan b and that sex with this guy is plan a. By definition that means that WW doesn't want BH anymore. Now, just because reality hits them when they are busted or confess out of fear of being busted doesn't change this fact. I just means they want BH as a life partner due to his value as a father and/or provider. They don't go to bed with another man if they love their husband no matter what they may say. 

Keep drinking the kool-aid before you change your mind.


----------



## LucasJackson

Yosemite said:


> I logged on just to respond to your thread and I didn't read all the posts only yours.
> 
> I believe you are setting yourself up for a world of pain by giving her another chance.
> 
> It's akin to climbing up a pile of loose rocks almost getting to the top and then just letting go and sliding all the way back down again.
> 
> You have gotten so far, its a shame to throw away all that progress.


If I'm honest I have these same concerns. It's definitely a risk. It would be easier for me to walk away. At the end of the day, when all the cards have been played, I don't want to. I want to stay, regardless of the risk I'm opening myself up to.


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## LucasJackson

blueinbr said:


> So LJ, are you saying that DB works? That a spouse can cheat multiple times, do some DB, say the magic words, and all is forgiven? Or is it YOU, not her words and not her actions, that decided not to divorce for YOUR reasons?


Probably both. I don't think any of us are immune to deposits in our love bank. That works for DB'ing and for cheating so I guess we all have to stay on our toes.


----------



## LucasJackson

drifter777 said:


> The point some of us are making is that when a woman cheats she has decided her husband is plan b and that sex with this guy is plan a. By definition that means that WW doesn't want BH anymore. Now, just because reality hits them when they are busted or confess out of fear of being busted doesn't change this fact. I just means they want BH as a life partner due to his value as a father and/or provider. They don't go to bed with another man if they love their husband no matter what they may say.
> 
> Keep drinking the kool-aid before you change your mind.


That has always been my opinion but I've changed on it. I don't see it as that black and white anymore.


----------



## becareful2

LucasJackson said:


> She says that wasn't why she ended up cheating, that is was literally about sexual experimentation and not having regrets of just being with one partner for life but after all the reading I've done about relationships after this happened I recognize my own faults.



The notion of living life without regret can be so destructive to a marriage. It's one thing to go skydiving or swimming with sharks, but to cheat on your spouse so you won't feel any regret? The irony is that now she is full of regrets. She could have had the marriage that was pretty close to great but she threw it all away for something strange. Painful lesson to learn. Hefty price to pay for experimentation. I don't envy you.


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## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> That has always been my opinion but I've changed on it. I don't see it as that black and white anymore.


But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I see it that you've decided she is a good life partner even though she cheated. You were plan b but because she now has elevated you to plan a you are satisfied.


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## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> I was actually looking forward to being alone. Marriage requires a lot of compromise by both partners. I liked doing whatever I wanted whenever I wanted with no one to check in with (other than my teenage daughter). At least I got a good taste of that while we were in-house separated. I did whatever I wanted.


Do you think she would still be having affair(s) if not for the rape incident?

Also, do you think your sexual history (as you put it) prior to marriage maybe makes you a little more forgiving of your W?


----------



## becareful2

drifter777 said:


> But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I see it that you've decided she is a good life partner even though she cheated. You were plan b but because she now has elevated you to plan a you are satisfied.


I can see how you would see it that way, but if there was no love and she never intended to run off with her OMs, would he still be considered her Plan B? If a wayward husband can sleep around and never intend to divorce their wives, would you still consider those wives Plan B or Plan A?


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## Lostinthought61

Does she know the name of the loser who raped her and is he married, please tell me that you will expose him. a loser like that should get his due.


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## LucasJackson

EllisRedding said:


> Do you think she would still be having affair(s) if not for the rape incident?
> 
> Also, do you think your sexual history (as you put it) prior to marriage maybe makes you a little more forgiving of your W?


Fine questions and honestly I don't know. I freely admit there are a lot of things I don't know. I do think that my own sexual history made it easier for me to remain faithful. That plus and rigid set of principles as to right vs wrong. Still, I had every kind of wild sex imaginable from about age 16-19. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the grass is not greener out there. To coin a sappy phrase, the grass isn't greener on the other side, it's greener where you water it.

Sex for lust doesn't get it done for me. If I had never done the things I did would I wonder about lustful depraved sex? Probably. It turns out even my Mary Poppins of a wife wondered about those things too. I guess we all do.


----------



## VladDracul

"When they were talking about desires and fantasies she told him it would be hot to be helpless to a strong man. Have him hold her down and really "give it to her" where she's powerless to resist."

Goes to the old saying about be careful what you wish for.


----------



## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> I can see how you would see it that way, but if there was no love and she never intended to run off with her OMs, would he still be considered her Plan B? If a wayward husband can sleep around and never intend to divorce their wives, would you still consider those wives Plan B or Plan A?


Yeah, if there were any "I love you's" or plans discussed about leaving their spouses I could not recover from that. I'm in the camp where PA is more forgivable than EA. I know many are opposite and I don't think there's a right way or wrong way to think. For me I can forgive "f*cking" but not love making. If there was love, I'm gone.


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## GusPolinski

becareful2 said:


> I can see how you would see it that way, but if there was no love and she never intended to run off with her OMs, would he still be considered her Plan B? If a wayward husband can sleep around and never intend to divorce their wives, would you still consider those wives Plan B or Plan A?


Plan A was to cake-eat indefinitely.

Plan B was to remain faithful to her husband.

Her new Plan A is to convince her husband to settle for substantially less than she swore to him upon exchanging vows on their wedding day, especially since the old Plan B is no longer possible.

To her credit, it seems to have worked.

I wonder what Plan A will be next week?

Either way, I wish him luck. He's making a huge mistake, but I wish him well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LucasJackson

VladDracul said:


> "When they were talking about desires and fantasies she told him it would be hot to be helpless to a strong man. Have him hold her down and really "give it to her" where she's powerless to resist."
> 
> Goes to the old saying about be careful what you wish for.


We had an ADA tell us to not even bother filing charges because of this. To also not even bother accusing him on the dating site (which I wanted to do) because he could sue us. I really have to let that one go because I really want to kill this guy. I don't mean that metaphorically either.


----------



## LucasJackson

Xenote said:


> Does she know the name of the loser who raped her and is he married, please tell me that you will expose him. a loser like that should get his due.


This is going to be hard to swallow but we've been advised to let it go. We were told by an ADA with over 20 years of criminal trial experience that we had zero case in criminal trial and that us accusing him publicly could end up with us being sued and he'd probably win because all he was doing was fulfilling a fantasy she told him after she agreed to meet him. I actually need some therapy myself to let this go. I literally want to kill this man.


----------



## LosingHim

IMO the risk of infidelity in the marriage is greatly increased in those couples where one or both spouses met/married very young. I am not saying your wife being 19 when you married excuses her cheating, not by a long shot, but I do think age can have some weight. You’ve said you had sewn your oats, you’d experienced a plethora of women being in a band, you’d tested the waters, you knew what was out there. She did not. I don’t think that means that she didn’t think your “love missile” was good enough. Does she know about YOUR sexual history? Does she know how many women sampled your love missile? Maybe…..she was jealous of your sexual experience and wanted to see it on her own? Again, not excusing the cheating, if that was the case she should have either divorced or suggested opening the marriage. 

But most women at 19 are still at the party stage, drinking a lot, partying, either sleeping around, or in relationships for months to years at a time before they settle down. She never got that. Some people are ok with that, others build resentment from ‘missing out on it’. A friend of mine got married at 18, popped out 2 kids, grew resentful of her husband having got to have a few years of partying that she missed out on and divorced him. Things were really rocky with them for a long time. She just got married about a month ago and her ex husband gave her away to her new husband along with her father. They had forged an amazing friendship after divorce and co-parenting their children for the last 15 years. It was just that in marriage – she couldn’t handle the life experiences he’d gotten to experience in comparison to what she’d experienced. Granted this isn’t a cheating story, just an example of the effects that marrying young can cause.


----------



## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> That has always been my opinion but I've changed on it. I don't see it as that black and white anymore.





drifter777 said:


> But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I see it that you've decided she is a good life partner even though she cheated. You were plan b but because she now has elevated you to plan a you are satisfied.


Let me add that I wish I could accept that I have been "elevated" to plan a status. I totally understand that most men can do this but, so far, I cannot because I know I'm still plan b. She can't undo the past. 

When faced with a life-altering decision people choose what they believe is the best path for them - path a. Just because they change their mind during their journey doesn't erase the fact that, at that crucial moment, they chose it with complete conviction. They were all in. This choice represents who they really are. Now they want a do-over for one simple reason: the path they chose didn't work out for them as well as they thought it would. Now they are in a panic to get back on plan b. Like I said, I understand how most men can accept this but I cannot. What I'm saying here is the cornerstone of my life philosophy on infidelity. When a man chooses to stay with a cheating wife he is accepting the indisputable fact that he is, and always was, her plan b. I don't care who you are, this fact will eat at you for the rest of your life.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> I've confirmed that with AP(s). There was never any talk about anyone leaving their spouses for anyone else. It was all depravity/camming/nasty rendezvouses/etc. About like a typical male cheater that's in it for the sex but not love.


So she's a sociopath. Great. I can at least can understand someone falling for another person and having sex with them as a result. But to fvck around just because? That's even more twisted.



LucasJackson said:


> I believe, however, she did not betray me with her love/heart. I might be splitting hairs here but to me that did make a difference.


You're making excuses for her behavior. Can't betray your own heart with someone else if you don't love them in the first place. You are a fool if you think she ever loved you.



LucasJackson said:


> The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong.


The Marine in you would kick your ass if he could. There's no honor in cowardness. The Marines taught you that. What happened to you?


----------



## Truthseeker1

LosingHim said:


> IMO the risk of infidelity in the marriage is greatly increased in those couples where one or both spouses met/married very young. I am not saying your wife being 19 when you married excuses her cheating, not by a long shot, but I do think age can have some weight. You’ve said you had sewn your oats, you’d experienced a plethora of women being in a band, you’d tested the waters, you knew what was out there. She did not. I don’t think that means that she didn’t think your “love missile” was good enough. Does she know about YOUR sexual history? Does she know how many women sampled your love missile? Maybe…..she was jealous of your sexual experience and wanted to see it on her own? Again, not excusing the cheating, if that was the case she should have either divorced or suggested opening the marriage.
> 
> But most women at 19 are still at the party stage, drinking a lot, partying, either sleeping around, or in relationships for months to years at a time before they settle down. She never got that. Some people are ok with that, others build resentment from ‘missing out on it’. A friend of mine got married at 18, popped out 2 kids, grew resentful of her husband having got to have a few years of partying that she missed out on and divorced him. Things were really rocky with them for a long time. She just got married about a month ago and her ex husband gave her away to her new husband along with her father. They had forged an amazing friendship after divorce and co-parenting their children for the last 15 years. It was just that in marriage – she couldn’t handle the life experiences he’d gotten to experience in comparison to what she’d experienced. Granted this isn’t a cheating story, just an example of the effects that marrying young can cause.


So she partied and slept aroundwith two kids? Great example for her kids or is she a warning? SMH


----------



## becareful2

This account is just painful to read. On the one hand, I feel awful for what she went through, but on the other hand, I'm repulsed by her choice to destroy a nearly three decade good marriage. She built up her marriage of nearly 30 years and with her own two hands, she tore it all down for some other men's phallus? She tainted and devalued herself in your eyes when she compromised her integrity, her honor, her self-respect, and her chastity because she didn't want to have any regret. Proverbs calls her a wise woman for building up her marriage and family, but a fool for destroying it all. Along with having multiple sex partners, she can now add rape victim to her list. She now has to live with all of that.


----------



## EllisRedding

LosingHim said:


> IMO the risk of infidelity in the marriage is greatly increased in those couples where one or both spouses met/married very young..


Would be interested to see if there are actual statistics that support this? Not questioning you per se as I do understand it would seem "logical" and it is your opinion, moreso if there is actually truth in this. My W and I got married young (23) and there has never been a hint or concern of infidelity (understanding that this is just my experience). 

At least from reading around here and the very few personal stories I know about infidelity, there doesn't seem to be a theme in regards to age.


----------



## jld

LucasJackson said:


> This is going to be hard to swallow but we've been advised to let it go. We were told by an ADA with over 20 years of criminal trial experience that we had zero case in criminal trial and that us accusing him publicly could end up with us being sued and he'd probably win because all he was doing was fulfilling a fantasy she told him after she agreed to meet him. I actually need some therapy myself to let this go. I literally want to kill this man.


Healthy instinct!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> This is going to be hard to swallow


No pun intended right?



LucasJackson said:


> he'd probably win because all he was doing was fulfilling a fantasy she told him after she agreed to meet him. I actually need some therapy myself to let this go. I literally want to kill this man.


You convinced she was raped? I'm not. Best way to get someone to forgive you is to make them pity you. She's sounds like a master manipulator to me. She wouldn't be the first to cry wolf to bail herself out of a bad situation. The pity card is the go to card of cheaters.


----------



## becareful2

LosingHim said:


> A friend of mine got married at 18, popped out 2 kids, grew resentful of her husband having got to have a few years of partying that she missed out on and divorced him. Things were really rocky with them for a long time. She just got married about a month ago and her ex husband gave her away to her new husband along with her father. They had forged an amazing friendship after divorce and co-parenting their children for the last 15 years. It was just that in marriage – she couldn’t handle the life experiences he’d gotten to experience in comparison to what she’d experienced. Granted this isn’t a cheating story, just an example of the effects that marrying young can cause.


I can understand divorcing a spouse but to have her ex-husband give her away to her new husband? That's ten levels of awkward and weird to me.


----------



## LosingHim

Truthseeker1 said:


> So she partied and slept aroundwith two kids? Great example for her kids or is she a warning? SMH


No, SHE didn't do it. I said that at 19 a lot of women are partying and possibly sleeping around. In my friends case, she just got married young (she was 18 and he was 22). HE had done the partying and sleeping around before they got married. She had not and was resentful towards him that he experienced it and she didn’t get to ‘sew her oats’. So she divorced him. She never cheated or partied or slept around.


----------



## LucasJackson

BetrayedDad said:


> No pun intended right?
> 
> 
> 
> You convinced she was raped? I'm not. Best way to get someone to forgive you is to make them pity you. She's sounds like a master manipulator to me. She wouldn't be the first to cry wolf to bail herself out of a bad situation. The pity card is the go to card of cheaters.


I have also had that thought but if you saw her once the flood gates of this opened and she didn't have to carry it alone, it was really genuine. She is very traumatized by it. It still affects our intimacy and may for quite a while. I'll be honest, as a man, I don't know how to make love to a woman that has been raped. I've googled the sh*t out of that very question and haven't come up with any "Eureka" solutions.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> She is very traumatized by it.


You're clearly very traumatized too and rightfully so. Maybe you should start worrying more about YOU than her. She's already broken and she's slowly breaking you too.


----------



## LosingHim

becareful2 said:


> I can understand divorcing a spouse but to have her ex-husband give her away to her new husband? That's ten levels of awkward and weird to me.


I agree that it was kind of awkward for sure. When the pictures popped up on my FB, I was reading the updates to J, quite bewildered myself. But then I thought about it. They were married when she was 18 and had just had their son. Their daughter came 2 years later and they divorced when she was 1 when she was 21. That was 17 years ago. In those 17 years, they both dated other people, but when it came to the kids they always sat together at their sporting events (both kids HEAVILY involved in sports), they had a very open parenting plan, didn’t really follow any kind of custody agreement. Her car broke down once and she couldn’t afford to fix it, since she was the mother of his kids and she needed transportation he fixed it for her. He’d remained friendly with her family, was there for her when her mom passed away unexpectedly 7 years ago. I think it was just one of those situations where they could NOT be married, but they made GREAT friends. Definitely strange, definitely not the norm, but for them, it works. Her new husband is pretty close to him now too.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> So she's a sociopath. Great. I can at least can understand someone falling for another person and having sex with them as a result. But to fvck around just because? That's even more twisted.
> 
> 
> 
> You're making excuses for her behavior. Can't betray your own heart with someone else if you don't love them in the first place. You are a fool if you think she ever loved you.
> 
> 
> 
> The Marine in you would kick your ass if he could. There's no honor in cowardness. The Marines taught you that. What happened to you?


Careful. With your "every screw looks like a nail when all I have in my toolbox is a big ol' hammer mindset", you have mistakenly decided that Marine = mindless thug. And let me tell you, mate, that Marines are not mindless thugs, they are highly trained, very intelligent military personnel trained in the art of warfare not in barroom brawling.

And how *dare* you accuse him of being a coward? And where do get off knocking his honour? 

Yeah. We get you felt betrayed, we get that you can't conceive of forgiving a remorseful cheater. 

*But this time dude? This time you have gone too damn far! *:redcard: for you!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

LucasJackson said:


> I have also had that thought but if you saw her once the flood gates of this opened and she didn't have to carry it alone, it was really genuine. She is very traumatized by it. It still affects our intimacy and may for quite a while. I'll be honest, as a man, I don't know how to make love to a woman that has been raped. I've googled the sh*t out of that very question and haven't come up with an "Eureka" solutions.




So she wants to be powerless and manhandled. Just not by you?


----------



## becareful2

Lucas,

If she has found her faith, tell her that's where she can find forgiveness for herself and the most healing for her trauma. However, she would need a lot of time in prayer for that.


----------



## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> Lucas,
> 
> If she has found her faith, tell her that's where she can find forgiveness for herself and the most healing for her trauma. However, she would need a lot of time in prayer for that.


She's doing that. She's not recovered. I'm not recovered. There's a mountain for us to climb to be recovered. It's the size of Everest and we're only 50 feet up from the base. I realize this. But a week ago we were only 30 feet up from the base so we made progress. At this point all I know is I've scuttled the divorce proceedings and we're committed to trying. We might fail, we might not. What doesn't kill us....


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. We get you felt betrayed, we get that you can't conceive of forgiving a remorseful cheater.


So scold me about painting with broad strokes yet you do the same. You think she's remorseful? 

He'd rather stay with a serial cheat than brave the unknown and live a life without this vile person.

Yeah I'm going to call him out for that. Fear is holding him back and his inner Marine knows it.


----------



## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> Fine questions and honestly I don't know. I freely admit there are a lot of things I don't know. I do think that my own sexual history made it easier for me to remain faithful. That plus and rigid set of principles as to right vs wrong. Still, I had every kind of wild sex imaginable from about age 16-19. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the grass is not greener out there. To coin a sappy phrase, the grass isn't greener on the other side, it's greener where you water it.
> 
> Sex for lust doesn't get it done for me. If I had never done the things I did would I wonder about lustful depraved sex? Probably. It turns out even my Mary Poppins of a wife wondered about those things too. I guess we all do.


Do you think knowing the pain she endured from her rape has to some extent guilted you into changing your mind about the D?


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> ...and if we men are being honest, the thought that our giant love missiles weren't enough for our wives really crushes the essence of our manhood. It did mine. I finally began to understand that it wasn't that mine wasn't enough, it's what you said. She wanted to try a different one.


There is an undercurrent of thought that seems to suggest women are not subject to the baser lusts. Only men are: being the underdeveloped primates of a lesser species to women. 

But there are some women out there who love to have lots of sex, with lots of different men. And when we get a wayward woman on here who is like this, the first thing people want to do is ascribe some kind of past trauma, or mental illness, midlife crisis, or personality disorder to it to explain away what they would rather avoid admitting to themselves. 

I think if OPs WW recanted all the b.s. about the "MLC", and "not feeling loved or needed" and "questioning her life" and all that crap she picked up from Women's Day magazine being the reason for her straying, and simply admitted to Lucas _"Look, I met this guy, I lusted after him, I had the opportunity to have sex with him, and I took it. I wasn't thinking about you or the kids or our future. I wanted this guy and we became sex partners. That's it Lucas. I did it because I wanted to and I had the opportunity_. _It had nothing to do with you, or what you did or not do for me"_.

I bet if she were to offer up that, instead of blaming Lucas for not spending 24 hours a day giving her back rubs and kissing her ass, he would have an easier time accepting that and probably be able to process it better. Instead he is taking the blame on himself for not being attentive.


----------



## LosingHim

And we wonder why more women don’ report rape. We wonder why women carry so much shame about being raped. We wonder why women don’t get therapy for rape. We wonder why rape culture is still alive and well. We wonder why rapists like the Stanford swimmer get off with light sentences. Because people LOVE to jump to “she’s not telling the truth”, “she just wants pity” “she obviously WANTED it”. 

Hey guys, how about you go have something shoved forcefully up your rectum repeatedly against your will and then come back and let us know how it felt and how you WANTED it? 

I can now think of 3 cheaters on this board who were raped. Myself, Stephscarlett and LJ’s wife. Maybe being past cheaters we put ourselves in positions that other women may not have. I’m not sure, there’s no real way to say. But NONE of us DESERVED to get raped. NO ONE deserves to get raped. And with the likelihood that people won’t believe us anyway once we DO tell, why do you think so many of us keep it a secret? I didn’t tell my husband for 10 years,. Why? Because of the same kind of victim shaming/blaming I’m seeing here.


----------



## EllisRedding

WorkingOnMe said:


> So she wants to be powerless and manhandled. Just not by you?


What is weird (or telling), she clearly had fantasies she felt like she missed out on by getting married, yet while having a Husband who could help fulfill those fantasies she instead looked to multiple men to take care of this (and who knows how high the count would have gotten if not for the last incident)


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> She's doing that. She's not recovered. I'm not recovered. There's a mountain for us to climb to be recovered. It's the size of Everest and we're only 50 feet up from the base. I realize this. But a week ago we were only 30 feet up from the base so we made progress. At this point all I know is I've scuttled the divorce proceedings and we're committed to trying. We might fail, we might not. What doesn't kill us....


Make her drive the R. Make her fight for it. It needs to be like the Battle of Guam. You make her fight for every inch of ground and every morsel of reconciliation. Don't go easy on her.


----------



## LucasJackson

EllisRedding said:


> Do you think knowing the pain she endured from her rape has to some extent guilted you into changing your mind about the D?


Possibly. It did make me realize that I still loved her. I said I didn't. I was convinced I didn't. When she lost her career and was being shamed by everyone we knew, I enjoyed it. I was angry and I wanted her to hurt. When that revelation came out I took zero pleasure in it. The "you deserved it" thought never crossed my mind. I was furious at myself for not being able to fix it. I can't take it away and I know what happened was a result of her own bad actions but no one deserves that. Not even a cheater. She was brutalized. After the cat was out of the bag I insisted she go to the doctor and we tell them what happened. Even though it had happened some time before the doctor told her she had scarring from a serious anal tear but that it was healing and she should be ok. She carried her guilt and the pain of that alone. How many of us could do that? I know that with cheaters it's "off with their heads" but I just don't feel that way anymore. With some I do. The cruel, unremorseful cheaters. Then again, I feel that way about anyone who willfully inflicts pain on someone else without remorse.


----------



## bandit.45

EllisRedding said:


> What is weird (or telling), she clearly had fantasies she felt like she missed out on by getting married, yet while having a Husband who could help fulfill those fantasies she instead looked to multiple men to take care of this (and who knows how high the count would have gotten if not for the last incident)


Yeah, that particular fantasy didn't quite work out for her did it? 

I don't understand why a woman won't just come out and tell her man she likes to be tossed around the bed and dominated once in a while? Why the hell are women so shy about this?


----------



## GusPolinski

LosingHim said:


> And we wonder why more women don’ report rape. We wonder why women carry so much shame about being raped. We wonder why women don’t get therapy for rape. We wonder why rape culture is still alive and well. We wonder why rapists like the Stanford swimmer get off with light sentences. Because people LOVE to jump to “she’s not telling the truth”, “she just wants pity” “she obviously WANTED it”.
> 
> Hey guys, how about you go have something shoved forcefully up your rectum repeatedly against your will and then come back and let us know how it felt and how you WANTED it?
> 
> I can now think of 3 cheaters on this board who were raped. Myself, Stephscarlett and LJ’s wife. Maybe being past cheaters we put ourselves in positions that other women may not have. I’m not sure, there’s no real way to say. But NONE of us DESERVED to get raped. NO ONE deserves to get raped. And with the likelihood that people won’t believe us anyway once we DO tell, why do you think so many of us keep it a secret? I didn’t tell my husband for 10 years,. Why? Because of the same kind of victim shaming/blaming I’m seeing here.


Boy do I ever want to respond to this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

LosingHim said:


> Because people LOVE to jump to “she’s not telling the truth”, “she just wants pity” “she obviously WANTED it”.


Straw man argument. Rape is an atrocity. That's a given.

However, cheaters LIE. First and foremost. The whole activity of cheating is predicated on deceit.

To accept anything from her at face value is blindly stupid. Women do lie about being raped, the baby being the BS's and not the OM's, etc. 

It happens and he needs to consider that.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> So scold me about painting with broad strokes yet you do the same. You think she's remorseful?
> 
> He'd rather stay with a serial cheat than brave the unknown and live a life without this vile person.
> 
> Yeah I'm going to call him out for that. Fear is holding him back and his inner Marine knows it.


My reply was not a critique of her remorse or lack of same, so thanks for that red herring.

My reply was in response to your egregious attack on him and his honour. 

Please knock it off, it's not wanted and it's not helpful. 

Though I think that sniping at people who can find it in their heart to forgive a cheater is something that gives you comfort by feeding the rage you have for your ex-wife.

And that call to his "inner Marine" is sounding a bit prissy.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, that particular fantasy didn't quite work out for her did it?
> 
> I don't understand why a woman won't just come out and tell her man she likes to be tossed around the bed and dominated once in a while? Why the hell are women so shy about this?


Because if you have to say it. . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, that particular fantasy didn't quite work out for her did it?
> 
> I don't understand why a woman won't just come out and tell her man she likes to be tossed around the bed and dominated once in a while? Why the hell are women so shy about this?


Because they are frightened their husband would think badly of them if they asked?


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> My reply was not a critique of her remorse or lack of same, so thanks for that red herring.


THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. 

He is doing himself a disservice taking back a REMORSELESS person. 

No one can behave the way she did and be remorseful later about it. No one. It's simply too egregious.

Sorry, there is no honor in becoming a doormat. This thread wouldn't exist if on some level, OP didn't acknowledge that.

Wake up man.


----------



## LucasJackson

MattMatt said:


> Because they are frightened their husband would think badly of them if they asked?


That is what she said. I had built her up as Mary Poppins. Practically perfect in every way. Sweet, wholesome, smart, beautiful, honorable, without fault. What I didn't realize was that I was creating an image almost impossible for her to live up to and it was stressful for her. Something I didn't know but with MC, now I do. Although I would have LOVED for her to come to me with sexual fantasies and would have LOVED exploring them with her, I/we had created an image of her where there was no way she could do that. I take full responsibility for my part in that.


----------



## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> Possibly. It did make me realize that I still loved her. I said I didn't. I was convinced I didn't. When she lost her career and was being shamed by everyone we knew, I enjoyed it. I was angry and I wanted her to hurt. When that revelation came out I took zero pleasure in it. The "you deserved it" thought never crossed my mind. I was furious at myself for not being able to fix it. I can't take it away and I know what happened was a result of her own bad actions but no one deserves that. Not even a cheater. She was brutalized. After the cat was out of the bag I insisted she go to the doctor and we tell them what happened. Even though it had happened some time before the doctor told her she had scarring from a serious anal tear but that it was healing and she should be ok. She carried her guilt and the pain of that alone. How many of us could do that? I know that with cheaters it's "off with their heads" but I just don't feel that way anymore. With some I do. *The cruel, unremorseful cheaters. Then again, I feel that way about anyone who willfully inflicts pain on someone else without remorse.*


Per the bolded, it sounds more like her remorse was driven by the rape more than anything else, not necessarily the remorse that came from hurting you. I guess I see a lot of people at least on TAM talk about their WW being remorseful, but in reality they are only remorseful b/c they got caught or some extenuating circumstance brought the affair to the surface. I guess that is what I keep getting back to, if she was truly remorseful would she have not told you the moment she slept with the first guy for the first time? I mean, you even acknowledge that if it wasn't for the rape you don't know for sure if she would have kept sleeping with guys, so that in itself brings how remorseful she was into question.

Either way, I wish you the best with whatever you decide, there is definitely a lot going on here and the amount of work needed if you guys are going to make things work just seems overwhelming.


----------



## LosingHim

GusPolinski said:


> Boy do I ever want to respond to this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Feel free
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

She was regretful, not remorseful. There is a difference.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.
> 
> He is doing himself a disservice taking back a REMORSELESS person.
> 
> No one can behave the way she did and be remorseful later about it. No one. It's simply too egregious.
> 
> Wake up man.


----------



## BetrayedDad

@MattMatt

Yawn....


----------



## MattMatt

LucasJackson said:


> That is what she said. I had built her up as Mary Poppins. Practically perfect in every way. Sweet, wholesome, smart, beautiful, honorable, without fault. What I didn't realize was that I was creating an image almost impossible for her to live up to and it was stressful for her. Something I didn't know but with MC, now I do. Although I would have LOVED for her to come to me with sexual fantasies and would have LOVED exploring them with her, I/we had created an image of her where there was no way she could do that. I take full responsibility for my part in that.


But that's *still* not your fault. 

And do watch Mary Poppins (opps, Julie Andrews' I mean!) performance in SOB. Sorry I mentioned that but whenever I see a reference to Mary Poppins an image of Julie Andrew's naked breasts always comes to my mind. 

Wonder if Mr Van **** ever saw...? Dang! I am rambling, now... )


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> @MattMatt
> 
> Yawn....


 @BetrayedDad _Yawn?_

:wtf: What are you? 14? :scratchhead:


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> @BetrayedDad _Yawn?_
> 
> :wtf: What are you? 14? :scratchhead:


What does that make you then posting cartoon memes?

4?


----------



## GusPolinski

LucasJackson said:


> That is what she said. I had built her up as Mary Poppins. Practically perfect in every way. Sweet, wholesome, smart, beautiful, honorable, without fault. What I didn't realize was that I was creating an image almost impossible for her to live up to and it was stressful for her. Something I didn't know but with MC, now I do. Although I would have LOVED for her to come to me with sexual fantasies and would have LOVED exploring them with her, I/we had created an image of her where there was no way she could do that. I take full responsibility for my part in that.


And yet all she had to do was remain faithful.

How was that such an unrealistic thing?

Newsflash -- if it was unrealistic then, then it's unrealistic now, and -- absent at least a tacit agreement w/ respect to an open marriage -- you're living a lie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

LosingHim said:


> Feel free


I require more keyboard than is currently afforded to me by my iPhone.

In the meantime, @BetrayedDad provided a somewhat tidy summary w/ respect to my thought process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

LosingHim said:


> No, SHE didn't do it. I said that at 19 a lot of women are partying and possibly sleeping around. In my friends case, she just got married young (she was 18 and he was 22). HE had done the partying and sleeping around before they got married. She had not and was resentful towards him that he experienced it and she didn’t get to ‘sew her oats’. So she divorced him. She never cheated or partied or slept around.


So her "resentment" lead her to divorce but she never did go out and sew those wild oats or did she? Her excuse sounds like a really lame one to break up her family - esecially after popping out two kids.


----------



## Truthseeker1

LucasJackson said:


> That is what she said. I had built her up as Mary Poppins. Practically perfect in every way. Sweet, wholesome, smart, beautiful, honorable, without fault. What I didn't realize was that I was creating an image almost impossible for her to live up to and it was stressful for her. Something I didn't know but with MC, now I do. Although I would have LOVED for her to come to me with sexual fantasies and would have LOVED exploring them with her, I/we had created an image of her where there was no way she could do that. I take full responsibility for my part in that.


Stop please just stop making excuses for her MULTIPLE affair partners- she is piling it on thick to get you to stay. You have ZERO responsibility in her going out to seek freaky sex ZERO. Dont rewrite history to justify taking her back....SMH


----------



## LucasJackson

MattMatt said:


> But that's *still* not your fault.
> 
> And do watch Mary Poppins (opps, Julie Andrews' I mean!) performance in SOB. Sorry I mentioned that but whenever I see a reference to Mary Poppins an image of Julie Andrew's naked breasts always comes to my mind.
> 
> Wonder if Mr Van **** ever saw...? Dang! I am rambling, now... )


I know that her cheating is not my fault. She accepts 100% responsibility for that. She won't let me blame myself for any of it even though I try. She wasn't looking for love. She had wondered about sex with someone different and compartmentalized Mary Poppins from Mary's dirty alter ego. She was still my Mary at home. Nothing changed. I had no clue. I knew she was dealing with some aging issues but don't we all. She's not off the hook by any stretch of the imagination but I won't lie and say I don't love her. I do. I'll do my part to heal and move on together. She has to do her part. If either of us can't then we're done. I can't predict the future and I can't make her do anything she doesn't want to. We'll see.


----------



## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> And we wonder why more women don’ report rape. We wonder why women carry so much shame about being raped. We wonder why women don’t get therapy for rape. We wonder why rape culture is still alive and well. We wonder why rapists like the Stanford swimmer get off with light sentences. Because people LOVE to jump t*o “she’s not telling the truth”, “she just wants pity” “she obviously WANTED it”.*
> 
> Hey guys, how about you go have something shoved forcefully up your rectum repeatedly against your will and then come back and let us know how it felt and how you WANTED it?
> 
> I can now think of 3 cheaters on this board who were raped. Myself, Stephscarlett and LJ’s wife. Maybe being past cheaters we put ourselves in positions that other women may not have. I’m not sure, there’s no real way to say. But NONE of us DESERVED to get raped. NO ONE deserves to get raped. And with the likelihood that people won’t believe us anyway once we DO tell, why do you think so many of us keep it a secret? I didn’t tell my husband for 10 years,. Why? Because of the same kind of victim shaming/blaming I’m seeing here.



Whoaaa... grab the reigns on that horse! I don't see where anyone says that that. 

What we are saying is that she told the guy she wanted to have a little rough sex. We understand she didn't mean what *he* thought it meant. 

But lets dial it down and look at her particular situation. I'm not sure I have all the facts, but from what Lucas tells us, it seems she met this guy on the web, corresponded with him a little bit, exchanged some pics, barely knew anything about him, and agreed to meet him at a hotel for some anonymous sex. She probably never had any intention of seeing this guy again.

Am I right here Lucas? 

So she meets this guy, and instead of a little domination and light aggression, he proceeds to rape her. 

Now...if I am a district attorney, and I have an investigator come to me with this complaint, I too am going to say exactly what the cop told Lucas and his wife in this case: _"No way. There is not a jury in the nation that will find this guy guilty. I'm not going to put her up on that witness stand just so the public defender can rip her apart in front of her husband and kids and paint her to be the Wh0re of Babylon. It would be a colossal waste of everyone's time and money and in the end all it would do is cause Lucas's wife more trauma. And the perp will still walk." _

And is she telling the truth about what happened? Has Lucas made her take a poly? So we are not allowed to question the WW's veracity? She cries rape, yet this is the same woman who lied to Lucas for months while she carried on a LTA with her OM, and proceeded to seek out and have two ONS with strangers. Her veracity is worth sh!t. Everything she says should be questioned and scrutinized. 

This is not a woman who was jumped and raped while jogging in a park one night. This is not a woman who had a Rufi tossed in her drink and then raped in an upstairs bedroom while unconscious. This is not a 12 year old girl being molested and raped by an uncle. 

This is a woman who knowingly sought out a rough individual for rough sex and the experience ended up going south on her. She got overconfident, thought she could handle this creep, but she was wrong. 

She was a victim, but not an innocent victim.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Because if you have to say it. . .


Makes sense.

Still, one would think that would be preferable to semi-anonymous hotel sex w/ a potential rapist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LucasJackson

GusPolinski said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> Still, one would think that would be preferable to semi-anonymous hotel sex w/ a potential rapist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't anonymous. They met on *******. His profile is still out there. He is who he says he is. I've looked up everything I can find about him. I have his facebook, twitter, *******, and I know his employer and what city he lives in. None of it does me any good. I either have to let it go or kill him. Even saying things like this is not a good idea. If the idiot drops dead mysteriously I'm on record saying I'd like to kill him. I do get an idea that this is his MO. If you meet a married woman for affair sex and rape her, there's a good chance she won't tell anyone. It probably happens far more than we know. Why don't we know? Because the women won't/can't report it.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> Whoaaa... grab the reigns on that horse! I don't see where anyone says that that.
> 
> What we are saying is that she told the guy she wanted to have a little rough sex. We understand she didn't mean what *he* thought it meant.
> 
> But lets dial it down and look at her particular situation. I'm not sure I have all the facts, but from what Lucas tells us, it seems she met this guy on the web, corresponded with him a little bit, exchanged some pics, barely knew anything about him, and agreed to meet him at a hotel for some anonymous sex. She probably never had any intention of seeing this guy again.
> 
> Am I right here Lucas?
> 
> So she meets this guy, and instead of a little domination and light aggression, he proceeds to rape her.
> 
> Now...if I am a district attorney, and I have an investigator come to me with this complaint, I too am going to say exactly what the cop told Lucas and his wife in this case: _"No way. There is not a jury in the nation that will find this guy guilty. I'm not going to put her up on that witness stand just so the public defender can rip her apart in front of her husband and kids and paint her to be the Wh0re of Babylon. It would be a colossal waste of everyone's time and money and in the end all it would do is cause Lucas's wife more trauma. And the perp will still walk." _
> 
> And is she telling the truth about what happened? Has Lucas made her take a poly? So we are not allowed to question the WW's veracity? She cries rape, yet this is the same woman who lied to Lucas for months while she carried on a LTA with her OM, and proceeded to seek out and have two ONS with strangers. Her veracity is worth sh!t. Everything she says should be questioned and scrutinized.
> 
> This is not a woman who was jumped and raped while jogging in a park one night. This is not a woman who had a Rufi tossed in her drink and then raped in an upstairs bedroom while unconscious. This is not a 12 year old girl being molested and raped by an uncle.
> 
> This is a woman who knowingly sought out a rough individual for rough sex and the experience ended up going south on her. She got overconfident, thought she could handle this creep, but she was wrong.
> 
> She was a victim, but not an innocent victim.


Well said, sir.

Took the words right out out my mo... er... fingers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> It wasn't anonymous. They met on *******. His profile is still out there. He is who he says he is. I've looked up everything I can find about him. I have his facebook, twitter, *******, and I know his employer and what city he lives in. None of it does me any good. I either have to let it go or kill him. Even saying things like this is not a good idea. If the idiot drops dead mysteriously I'm on record saying I'd like to kill him. I do get an idea that this is his MO. If you meet a married woman for affair sex and rape her, there's a good chance she won't tell anyone. It probably happens far more than we know. Why don't we know? Because the women won't/can't report it.


All this is contingent on whether or not she is telling you the truth. 

Remember Joseph and Potiphar's wife?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> Still, one would think that would be preferable to semi-anonymous hotel sex w/ a potential rapist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she knows that now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

This situation brings to mind those idiots who look for hookups on Craigslist. 

Craigslist... 

I mean...what the fvck?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> And she knows that now.


If only there were some sort of commonly-held wisdom available to modern, fidelity-challenged women that would enable them to better avoid these pitfalls!

Eh... nevermind. They'd just ignore it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LucasJackson

jld said:


> And she knows that now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife has always had a problem spotting the bad in people. She tends to focus on the good. Another Mary Poppins quality of hers. I, on the other hand, always think everyone has an angle and I try to figure it out. I would have spotted this creep a mile away. She didn't. Maybe she has learned but at the same time, I don't want her to become like me. It's not all it's cracked up to be.


----------



## jld

LucasJackson said:


> My wife has always had a problem spotting the bad in people. She tends to focus on the good. Another Mary Poppins quality of hers. I, on the other hand, always think everyone has an angle and I try to figure it out. I would have spotted this creep a mile away. She didn't. Maybe she has learned but at the same time, I don't want her to become like me. It's not all it's cracked up to be.


Totally agree.

I really wish she had confided in you, LJ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> I, on the other hand, always think everyone has an angle and I try to figure it out.


So, what's your wife's angle in pretending to be remorseful?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> If only there were some sort of commonly-held wisdom available to modern, fidelity-challenged women that would enable them to better avoid these pitfalls!
> 
> Eh... nevermind. They'd just ignore it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, LJ got an education (vaccination?) between 16-19. But that is not really something we want to recommend, correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lostinthought61

Tell me Lucas and i'm not sure if you even discussed it with your wife, but if she was going through these issues about wanting to know what it felt like to be with someone else for just sex, how would you have addressed this prior to all of this going down? would you have discussed swinging, open marriage or hall pass?


----------



## Truthseeker1

BetrayedDad said:


> So, what's your wife's angle in pretending to be remorseful?


You make a great point!


----------



## Truthseeker1

@LucasJackson I'm going to leave this thread at this point but I sincerely wish you good luck in your chosen path. I hope the end is peace and happiness for you. I really do. Good luck..


----------



## LosingHim

LJ has already said he caught her in the LTA - she fessed up to the two ONS on her own. Isn't that correct?

What the hell kind of sense would it make to admit to two more instances of cheating but lie that one of them was a rape? The fact that she was going there for sex is enough of a nail in the coffin to end the marriage. 

Yes, she had I'll intent meeting up with that man. That I'll intent was CONSENSUAL sex outside of her marriage. Not rape.

Yes, cheaters lie. So do non cheaters. Would you question the rape of a woman if she wasn't a cheater? She's admitted to TWO affairs. Doesn't make sense to say the third was a rape. Because two would be excusable but 3 would not?

Unless you've experienced rape you have no idea how shameful it is to disclose. I really don't think that many women make up rape. Unless you're watching Law and Order.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

It'll work out well until she does it again. Serial cheaters never stop.

Better buckle up.


----------



## becareful2

LosingHim said:


> And we wonder why more women don’ report rape. We wonder why women carry so much shame about being raped. We wonder why women don’t get therapy for rape. We wonder why rape culture is still alive and well. We wonder why rapists like the Stanford swimmer get off with light sentences. Because people LOVE to jump to “she’s not telling the truth”, “she just wants pity” “she obviously WANTED it”.
> 
> Hey guys, how about you go have something shoved forcefully up your rectum repeatedly against your will and then come back and let us know how it felt and how you WANTED it?
> 
> I can now think of 3 cheaters on this board who were raped. Myself, Stephscarlett and LJ’s wife. Maybe being past cheaters we put ourselves in positions that other women may not have. I’m not sure, there’s no real way to say. But NONE of us DESERVED to get raped. NO ONE deserves to get raped. And with the likelihood that people won’t believe us anyway once we DO tell, why do you think so many of us keep it a secret? I didn’t tell my husband for 10 years,. Why? Because of the same kind of victim shaming/blaming I’m seeing here.


To be fair, there have been a number of women who cry wolf about being raped. Otterbein being one, Columbia mattress girl being another. The poorly investigated rape story at UVA by Rolling Stone reporter Sabrina Rubin Erdely has been discredited, forcing Rolling Stone to not only retract the story but dismiss manager editor Will Dana. There are wives who threatened husbands with false rape accusations prior to a divorce. And not to get political but Hillary once said women who claim being raped should be believed, but then she didn't believe the women who accused her husband of the same.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> My wife has always had a problem spotting the bad in people. She tends to focus on the good. Another Mary Poppins quality of hers.


I'll bounce from your thread too. Obviously, you know my opinion and you're either going to take it into consideration or ignore it.

I was a fool too once. You've clearly assumed the white knight role. That you are going to somehow rescue this woman from her lecherous ways. How noble of you.

One day you will realize. It's not that she has a problem spotting the bad in people. She ACTIVELY seeks out bad people. She doesn't focus on the good. She craves the bad. 

She's not Mary Poppins, she's just playing the part and it's an Oscar winning performance. Maybe the resentment, that will inevitably creep in, will open your eyes. Good Luck.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

LosingHim said:


> Unless you've experienced rape you have no idea how shameful it is to disclose. I really don't think that many women make up rape. Unless you're watching Law and Order.


Then you'd be surprised. The annoying thing is that there are far more unspoken rapes (majority), than false claims (next), than reported (next), than prosecuted(second smallest) and get conviction/containment (   )

Too often guilt, regret, expectation of returns, false messages, outright lying get far more support and attention than admission of personal fault or deliberate involvement. Sadly there is -good- reason complaints don't get taken as seriously as they should (by police etc) because these f...wits stuff it up for everyone.


----------



## becareful2

BetrayedDad said:


> He is doing himself a disservice taking back a REMORSELESS person.
> 
> No one can behave the way she did and be remorseful later about it. No one. It's simply too egregious.


If what Lucas said is true, then she's plenty remorseful. The guilt will eat her alive.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Well, LJ got an education (vaccination?) between 16-19. But that is not really something we want to recommend, correct?


Not at all.

Do you believe the experiences to be at all comparable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> Yeah, if there were any "I love you's" or plans discussed about leaving their spouses I could not recover from that. I'm in the camp where PA is more forgivable than EA. I know many are opposite and I don't think there's a right way or wrong way to think. For me I can forgive "f*cking" but not love making. If there was love, I'm gone.


What a firestorm of reaction - incredible! Clearly your story has struck a nerve with most of us. I am one who is very angry - still - with my cheating wife WHEN I think about what she did. I have a tremendous amount of regret that I did not divorce her at the time - it is the single biggest mistake of my life. 

But you are not me and one thing that makes that abundently clear is your statement that that you can forgive the sex but not love. I am pretty much 180 from that as we've all been infatuated with someone only to find out it wasn't real. I understand that but for a woman to give herself to another man is a sin that cannot be taken back. I cannot forgive that betrayal. But, like I said, you are not me and if you can truly handle the sexual part of this then I think you are right to try to reconcile and you have a pretty good chance to get past this. Now, as far as knowing whether she "loved" him or not - accept that this is something you will never know for sure. I cannot accept that a woman in a LTA is not head-over-heels in love with her AP during the affair. It is the most dangerous, exciting, delicious relationship she's ever experienced. The sex is wonderful, naughty, and all she can handle. What would ever make any man think that his wife was not in love with the OM? It means you have to accept that she was willing to throw away you & her family for affair sex. How can a woman be this wanton?


----------



## Buddy400

LosingHim said:


> I really don't think that many women make up rape. Unless you're watching Law and Order.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's a pretty evenhanded discussion of false rape accusations:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false


----------



## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> LJ has already said he caught her in the LTA - she fessed up to the two ONS on her own. Isn't that correct?
> 
> What the hell kind of sense would it make to admit to two more instances of cheating but lie that one of them was a rape? The fact that she was going there for sex is enough of a nail in the coffin to end the marriage.
> 
> Yes, she had I'll intent meeting up with that man. That I'll intent was CONSENSUAL sex outside of her marriage. Not rape.
> 
> Yes, cheaters lie. So do non cheaters. Would you question the rape of a woman if she wasn't a cheater? She's admitted to TWO affairs. Doesn't make sense to say the third was a rape. Because two would be excusable but 3 would not?
> 
> Unless you've experienced rape you have no idea how shameful it is to disclose. I really don't think that many women make up rape. Unless you're watching Law and Order.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope she's not lying. I really do for Lucas's sake. 

You are right. I do not know what it is like to be raped. And I hope that she is telling the truth about what went down. I really do.


----------



## becareful2

How did the talk of R went down, Lucas, and what was her reaction?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Do you believe the experiences to be at all comparable?



Gus, I am not a fan of promiscuity, period. I don't think copious amounts of sex with a copious number of partners before marriage is any more honorable than sex with 3 partners 30 years later. 

To me, the gold standard is one partner, for life. Even more special if consummation takes place after the sacrament of marriage. 

And I say that having failed to live up to that standard myself, with the baggage to show for it. Mea culpa.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

We are all so damned imperfect.

So glad some people can forgive that.


----------



## drifter777

You know that the title of this thread just drips with Freudian sarcasm - right?

"I'm screwed. Didn't get the D done before my anger wore off" 

One might say that this is not the most positive attitude to have right now...


----------



## MattMatt

drifter777 said:


> You know that the title of this thread just drips with Freudian sarcasm - right?
> 
> "I'm screwed. Didn't get the D done before my anger wore off"
> 
> One might say that this is not the most positive attitude to have right now...


Probably because he knew he would get these replies: "I never could forgive my ex wife and neither should you!"

"Man up! Kick her out! Go beat up her lover! Tell the world she is a no good, two-timing %&$£! Rah! Rah! Rah!"


----------



## LucasJackson

Xenote said:


> Tell me Lucas and i'm not sure if you even discussed it with your wife, but if she was going through these issues about wanting to know what it felt like to be with someone else for just sex, how would you have addressed this prior to all of this going down? would you have discussed swinging, open marriage or hall pass?


That's a tough question. I think if it was that important to her to try then I would have suggested we go to one of those swinger resorts in Europe or the Caribbean, met a nice clean, educated, professional-type couple, had a full swap hookup, then go our separate ways. Zero contact info shared. I'm not even sure if I would have went for that but that would be the most I would have agreed to. Nothing local. That could get complicated. Still, whatever we did, we would have done together.


----------



## honcho

You say this was gradual yet didn't you have her served papers 2 weeks ago. In a couple of weeks this has all turned around?


----------



## TX-SC

I'll have to be one of the skeptical ones. But, this is your decision to make and you'll either reap the rewards or bear the consequences. I do wish you luck. I think you're going to need it.


----------



## Yosemite

Expect a lot of volatility in the coming weeks and months.


----------



## BetrayedDad

becareful2 said:


> If what Lucas said is true, then she's plenty remorseful.


Lucas has decided to take the blue pill. Semper fi Marine. 

Perhaps you should tell your wife what that means?


----------



## LucasJackson

honcho said:


> You say this was gradual yet didn't you have her served papers 2 weeks ago. In a couple of weeks this has all turned around?


I was softening then. I was also angry about softening and was advised to push forward with D and being told you don't have to go through with it. It's still not stopped. I called to end the process and was told I can delay it, which I did. I'll probably stop it completely but you never know. I'm just taking it day to day. I don't want to plan too far into the future.


----------



## *Deidre*

I'm happy for you if you are staying for the right reasons, and not out of fear. Don't know your whole story, but from the posts in this thread, seems like it was a very quick turn around to stop the divorce. If you do stay, make sure that she gets LOTS of counseling, because she sounds like she needs a lot of male attention to get her through the day, and that won't change if it's not properly addressed. Just being real. Wish you the best, though. ((prayers and hugs))


----------



## tech-novelist

Kivlor said:


> PS I've got several family members who agree with you regarding the "just sex" vs "giving their heart" issue. They all seem to think they could forgive a PA if there was no emotional connection, but if their wife gave her heart to another man... well that's a bridge too far. I think a lot of men feel this way.


Yes, but that doesn't happen very often; usually, when a woman cheats, she switches allegiances. Not always, of course; sometimes it is just the sex.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> There have been a few wayward wives come through TAM who just wanted to bang some strange. They had happy marriages and were not feeling neglected. They were just bored. It has happened many times.
> 
> Women are different from men... but not that different.


As I recall Athol Kay has said (obviously oversimplified), "If you're boring, she's whoring."


----------



## tech-novelist

LucasJackson said:


> ...and if we men are being honest, the thought that our giant love missiles weren't enough for our wives really crushes the essence of our manhood. It did mine. I finally began to understand that it wasn't that mine wasn't enough, it's what you said. She wanted to try a different one.


OT, but "giant love missiles" would be a great name for a rock band.


----------



## Absurdist

Well we know your Achilles Heel. You love your wife. Always have and always will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

tech-novelist said:


> As I recall Athol Kay has said (obviously oversimplified), "If you're boring, she's whoring."


And yet, if a man says he's cheating because his wife is disinterested in sex and their intimate life is bland.....he is a complete POS.

I actually agree he is.....just don't like the assumed double standard that WW are justified if their BH's are 'boring'......that's bullsh*t.

A boring partner of either sex is a definite excuse to issue an ultimatum:

"Get off your lazy a** and address this issue or I'm going to divorce you.....I did not sign up for a M like this."

It is NOT an excuse to turn into a backstabbing traitor, not for men OR WOMEN.

Any woman who cites 'boredom' as her justification for cheating is a disgusting slag......no better than a man who screws around because he claims he isn't getting enough sex at home.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, that particular fantasy didn't quite work out for her did it?
> 
> I don't understand why a woman won't just come out and tell her man she likes to be tossed around the bed and dominated once in a while? Why the hell are women so shy about this?


Because most women want men who "just get it", not men who have to be told what to do, by them or by anyone else.

(Note: I'm not saying this is good or sensible.)


----------



## tech-novelist

Dyokemm said:


> And yet, if a man says he's cheating because his wife is disinterested in sex and their intimate life is bland.....he is a complete POS.
> 
> I actually agree he is.....just don't like the assumed double standard that WW are justified if their BH's are 'boring'......that's bullsh*t.
> 
> A boring partner of either sex is a definite excuse to issue an ultimatum:
> 
> "Get off your lazy a** and address this issue or I'm going to divorce you.....I did not sign up for a M like this."
> 
> It is NOT an excuse to turn into a backstabbing traitor, not for men OR WOMEN.
> 
> Any woman who cites 'boredom' as her justification for cheating is a disgusting slag......no better than a man who screws around because he claims he isn't getting enough sex at home.


I'm not saying this is an excuse, because it isn't. But if your wife thinks you are boring, you need to do something about it, no matter how unfair it may be.


----------



## RWB

LucasJackson said:


> I was softening then. I was also angry about softening and was advised to push forward with D and being told you don't have to go through with it. It's still not stopped. I called to end the process and was told I can delay it, which I did. * I'll probably stop it completely but you never know. I'm just taking it day to day. I don't want to plan too far into the future*.


"But you never know"...

LJ,

I'm 7+ years in with my fWW where you sit today. Very similar story. The "but you never know" is you sanity hold. As the years have passed my wife doesn't believe or really understand that I can or will pull the plug regardless of "how great our marriage is now". 

Understand? 

Reconciliation with a cheater is conditional upon... no rules. You as the BS have the right for evermore "forever" to decide regardless of nothing at all, I'm DONE. Cruel? Hard? Unforgiving? 

Nope. Sanity.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I read through this thread and had to delay my response until I was able to be more rational. Really this all comes down to want. You, as did I, want what you thought you had, the Mary Poppins wife. I too married young and my wife had not been with another man. She followed a similar path to your wife but did not carry it as far, at least to my knowledge. She also expressed the fear of, at the end of life, not knowing what it was like to experience more. Well now they know.

This is all about maturity and knowing what you want and being able to extrapolate and project. I blame society to a large degree in that we are constantly bombarded with seeking the new. New car, new home, new, new, new, it all has to be different. For an underdeveloped mind it is quite influential.

In our case we knew what we wanted and were quite content. The greener grass holds no allure for someone who realizes that the grass needs attention and maintenance in order to stay green and vibrant. If we neglect the grass then it will lose its bright green color no matter the field in which it grows. We were willing to put a lifetime into making our little plot of ground as vibrant as it could be.

Unfortunately this does not play well into the current mindset of new, better, more. They are trying to convince us that new, better, more is the secret to happiness and some immature minds buy it hook, line and sinker. 

So what we are left with are the pieces of our once "happy" life. We frantically try, as did all of the kings horses and all of the kings men, to reassemble Humpty Dumpty from the fragments. It is an unbearable thought that life, fate, destiny or whatever you choose to call it, can shatter our life with so little regard for us. Therefore we struggle to hold on to the pieces in a desperate effort to bring back that happiness or at least some of it. We want to believe that we have some control.

We move our line in the sand in an effort to "save face" and to keep our sanity. Where you have the advantage over me is that you have convinced yourself of your part in all of this. I never could accept that. If someone is upset, unhappy, regretful, fearful, lonely, hurt or what have you the answer is communication, not betrayal and I could never force myself to accept blame for her lack of ability, or refusal, to communicate.

So now we must try and strike a balance between the life we want and the life we now have. We must compromise ourselves but the question is how much can we bend? The thought of losing a 30+ year investment, your partner and your family is daunting so we give up something else instead. Is it worth it? I wish I knew for sure.

The one hope that we have is that our wives have grown from this and are now different people. We sure are, not so much because we have grown but rather because of what we were forced to accept. Mary Poppins is dead, brutally murdered actually. How much do we know about the woman who has replaced her? How much did we really know about Mary after 30+ years? Not as much as we thought apparently.

Ultimately we want a relationship wherein we feel safe. Is that even possible with this new woman? I do not know but it evidently wasn't possible with Mary. So we try to forge ahead, picking up pieces as we go, believing that somehow we can reassemble this puzzle. Can we? I wish I knew.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> Lucas has decided to take the blue pill. Semper fi Marine.
> 
> Perhaps you should tell your wife what that means?


And I thought YOU promised OP that you were done with his thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## stillthinking

You did not "win her hand in marriage?" So because she did not get enough romance in the marriage, and enough reaming before you got married, she went out and slept around. Wow, she sounds like a delight. Who wouldn't want to hold onto that jem?

Look, if you want to settle for a WW with some of the worst excuses for cheating that I have ever heard, that's your call. Do whatever mental gymnastics you have to so you can look yourself in the mirror and sleep next to her at night. It's your life.

But realize that history will probably not be kind to this decision. Even if you stay together, a fair portion of you is going to have to die in the process.


----------



## MattMatt

There is such a lot of projection going on here.

There is also a strain of utilitarianism going on in TAM.

Apparently some people, some men, on TAM think that a wife is like a slightly warmer and more mobile than usual blow up doll.

"If your blow up doll, duh I mean wife, does not work so good, throw it away and get a new one!

"Get a newer model! Get a prettier one!"

With some of the 'advice' given on TAM -not necessarily referencing anyone in this thread- you might wonder if the member offering it has ever lived with anything other than a blow up doll or if you might see why they are not currently in a meaningful relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Absurdist said:


> Well we know your Achilles Heel. You love your wife. Always have and always will.


Nothing wrong with that, Lucas. Admirable, actually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wontonga

LucasJackson said:


> That damn divorce busting sh*t works. We're going to work it out. Want to call me an idiot? Be my guest. I'm already calling myself one. Zero tolerance for cheating sounded so good on paper. Oh well, now I'm one of those guys that I call crazy.



OH MY GOSH! I went through this EXACT thing in 2014! I always swore I would NEVER allow myself to be cheated on. That if it happened, I would just break it off because they didn’t deserve me. It worked with any boyfriend that did it, but when it was my husband I couldn’t walk away. I stayed! Against every fiber of rational thought and common sense—I stayed. 

I told him to give me a year. I needed at least a year to get over the betrayal and sadness inside. Granted, it was not a very nice year—but we are better for it. I can tell you that if you choose there to be light at the end of the tunnel, there can be. Do what you feel is right for you and pay no attention to others. 




LucasJackson said:


> If nothing else, I've learned the world is not so black and white. It's more complicated than that. The Marine in me was very rigid about right/wrong. I guess not much in life works in absolutes.


There's alot of gray in the world. Keep your head up!


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> And I thought YOU promised OP that you were done with his thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm done advising OP but I will always respond to any comments directed towards me in any thread. Including sad ones like this.


----------



## brooklynAnn

@LucasJackson, so now we know how successful marriage busting is. Well, good luck to you and your marriage. I hope you will go into this with eyes wide open but both feet into the boat. Don't be wishy washy with your decision or it would't be a success. Give it your all. 

Take it easy on yourself. You are not less of a man because you choose to give your marriage a second chance. In fact, this shows how much you have grown since this happened and you can now view your marriage from a different point of view. You will be more aware now. 

All the best to you and your family.


----------



## Be smart

@LucasJackson you said OM-her co worker IS a decent man. Please tell me he is out of your lives and you dont have any contact with him especially your wife !!!

Your wife wanted to have some fun with lots of men before she got aged. You are married for 30 years so now she wants to settle down and have a nice little home,wait for grandchildren and maybe once in a while take a trip with you. Sounds perfect right.

If you you know how to do it keep watching her posting on other sites about her marriage troubles. Phone,mail and other accounts should be open for your eyes all the time. No delete items. 

Good luck to you.

Stay strong.


----------



## LucasJackson

Be smart said:


> @LucasJackson you said OM-her co worker IS a decent man. Please tell me he is out of your lives and you dont have any contact with him especially your wife !!!
> 
> Your wife wanted to have some fun with lots of men before she got aged. You are married for 30 years so now she wants to settle down and have a nice little home,wait for grandchildren and maybe once in a while take a trip with you. Sounds perfect right.
> 
> If you you know how to do it keep watching her posting on other sites about her marriage troubles. Phone,mail and other accounts should be open for your eyes all the time. No delete items.
> 
> Good luck to you.
> 
> Stay strong.


We've both always had full transparency with each other concerning phones, computers, tablets, etc. I just never looked. Neither did she. As for OM, they're out of our lives permanently and we're out of theirs. We all agreed that was best, hashed out our final issues and haven't communicated with him or his BW in quite a while.

I don't plan on checking up on her. If I felt like I had to do that I'd go ahead with the divorce. To me, that's no way to live.


----------



## LucasJackson

brooklynAnn said:


> @LucasJackson, so now we know how successful marriage busting is. Well, good luck to you and your marriage. I hope you will go into this with eyes wide open but both feet into the boat. Don't be wishy washy with your decision or it would't be a success. Give it your all.
> 
> Take it easy on yourself. You are not less of a man because you choose to give your marriage a second chance. In fact, this shows how much you have grown since this happened and you can now view your marriage from a different point of view. You will be more aware now.
> 
> All the best to you and your family.


I have to be honest, I went back and re-ready some things I've said about infidelity and reviewed some of my behavior post d-day and I didn't like that guy. I was hurt, sure enough, but I could hurt back and severely and that's not who I want to be. I want to be better than that. That's a tough one though.


----------



## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> No, SHE didn't do it. I said that at 19 a lot of women are partying and possibly sleeping around. In my friends case, she just got married young (she was 18 and he was 22). HE had done the partying and sleeping around before they got married. She had not and was resentful towards him that he experienced it and she didn’t get to ‘sew her oats’. So she divorced him. She never cheated or partied or slept around.


So...

She blamed him because she didn't go out and sew her wild oats...

Okay. 

You seem to be too smart of a lady to be friends with someone this this vacuous.


----------



## Be smart

LucasJackson said:


> We've both always had full transparency with each other concerning phones, computers, tablets, etc. I just never looked. Neither did she. As for OM, they're out of our lives permanently and we're out of theirs. We all agreed that was best, hashed out our final issues and haven't communicated with him or his BW in quite a while.
> 
> I don't plan on checking up on her. If I felt like I had to do that I'd go ahead with the divorce. To me, that's no way to live.



Good,good. You got me worried when you said he is decent man. He is a POS simple as that.

Make sure all toxic friends are out of your life. No contact with them at all,ever.

MC is arranged which is nice. This is healty way to deal with your problems. Props to your wife for suggesting this.

Now for yourself join some IC. People always tell "I dont need this",but trust me it is going to help you. 

Spend some time with her.Just the two of you. 

Good luck to you my friend.


----------



## bandit.45

tech-novelist said:


> As I recall Athol Kay has said (obviously oversimplified), "If you're boring, she's whoring."


But sometimes, the husband is doing all he can and making an attempt not to be boring. But that isn't enough sometimes. 

Most husbands and wives work so many hours nowadays that they have no time for each other and they drift apart. Put kids in the mix and all the exhaustion that entails...?

"Well why aren't you having date nights?"

"Why don't you make enough salary to fly your wife to Lake Cuomo once a year?"

"Why aren't you courting your wife and sending her love notes and flowers and making together time, and blah, blah, blah, blah.....?"

It takes a fvcking enormous effort to run a marriage and family these days, with all the unreasonable pressure that our society puts on couples nowadays. 

Why the hell would anyone want to get married anymore?


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> I have to be honest, I went back and re-ready some things I've said about infidelity and reviewed some of my behavior post d-day and I didn't like that guy. I was hurt, sure enough, but I could hurt back and severely and that's not who I want to be. I want to be better than that. That's a tough one though.


From what you wrote I don't think you stepped over the line. Unless there has been some verbal abuse or physical abuse going on you aren't telling us about.


----------



## bandit.45

tech-novelist said:


> Because most women want men who "just get it", not men who have to be told what to do, by them or by anyone else.
> 
> (Note: I'm not saying this is good or sensible.)


I've had partners who acted like they want me to be dominant and then when I started manhandling them they freaked and I stopped.

One gal I tried to sleep with once had an aversion to being carried. She and I had been flirting and talking about what she wanted to do, but it was all talk on her side as it tuned out. As I started to swoop her up to carry her to bed and she literally had a meltdown. I set her down immediately and backed off and she went and sat down and composed herself. She was very apologetic, but I was freaked out and I ended the date and took her home. I have no clue what FOO experience she went through in her past that caused her to have that kind of reaction.

Women are hard to read, especially the inexperienced ones.


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> There is such a lot of projection going on here.
> 
> There is also a strain of utilitarianism going on in TAM.
> 
> Apparently some people, some men, on TAM think that a wife is like a slightly warmer and more mobile than usual blow up doll.
> 
> "If your blow up doll, duh I mean wife, does not work so good, throw it away and get a new one!
> 
> "Get a newer model! Get a prettier one!"
> 
> With some of the 'advice' given on TAM -not necessarily referencing anyone in this thread- you might wonder if the member offering it has ever lived with anything other than a blow up doll or if you might see why they are not currently in a meaningful relationship?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree to a point. But there is one truth Matt Matt that many here are afraid to admit to themselves. As much as we like to think that every person has value, that every person has worth, that every person deserves happiness and respect and dignity...

It is a nice dream, a nice idea to strive for. But the cold hard truth that I have learned in my life experience, is that I am _replaceable._ 

We are all replaceable when it comes to romantic relationships. 

I have been replaced and forgotten by every woman who ever claimed to love me. This truth was a hard pill to swallow, but it reminded me that we come into this world alone and we leave this world alone, and in the end the only person you can really count on to value you is yourself. 

...and maybe God.


----------



## MyRevelation

LJ,

I've been away for a few days and am a little late to this discussion, but when I read the thread title and based on your words and descriptions, my thoughts went to how sorry I was that you'd made this choice. Without question, it was your choice to make, but I can't help from viewing it as a bad one ... but that is coming from the "Voice of Experience" when it comes to bad relationship choices, so what do I know?


----------



## LosingHim

bandit.45 said:


> So...
> 
> She blamed him because she didn't go out and sew her wild oats...
> 
> Okay.
> 
> You seem to be too smart of a lady to be friends with someone this this vacuous.


Meh, they divorced 17 years ago. Back then I understood her reasoning, because I was young and dumb too. I think she ‘blamed’ him because he got her pregnant. (yes, I know it takes 2 to tango, but we aren’t always rational in our thinking). She was pregnant during our senior year and gave birth shortly after. They got married quickly. I was a bridesmaid in their wedding, I remember we all snuck alcohol because we weren’t even old enough to drink. She loved him at the time (what 17 year old doesn’t think they’re in love?) They had another baby, resentment set in that he’d gotten to experience things she hadn’t. He raced horses, spent a lot of time at the barn and away from her. She was going to school to be a nurse and serving in a bar at night for extra money. Saw the crazy 19-21 year olds coming in to party, she never got to do it, etc. Became very resentful of her life being a mom and housewife young while he’d already done the party scene and they split up. She’s a lot different now at 38.


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> From what you wrote I don't think you stepped over the line. Unless there has been some verbal abuse or physical abuse going on you aren't telling us about.


It wasn't as much what I actually did but what I was thinking and feeling. It was very dark.


----------



## LucasJackson

MyRevelation said:


> LJ,
> 
> I've been away for a few days and am a little late to this discussion, but when I read the thread title and based on your words and descriptions, my thoughts went to how sorry I was that you'd made this choice. Without question, it was your choice to make, but I can't help from viewing it as a bad one ... but that is coming from the "Voice of Experience" when it comes to bad relationship choices, so what do I know?


I understand. My rational mind tells me this exact same thing. That's why I called myself an idiot. I wish sometimes we humans could be all rational and zero emotional but we can't.

I did the death bed question. If today was your last day on earth, you're on your death bed, and you can have only 1 person to sit with you as you pass, who would you want it to be? 

The truth for me is that I'd still want it to be her. That is why I'm giving this a go.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> So...
> 
> She blamed him because she didn't go out and *sew *her wild oats...
> 
> Okay.
> 
> You seem to be too smart of a lady to be friends with someone this this vacuous.


This really belongs on the thread about pet peeves in grammar, but it is *sow*, not *sew*, wild oats.


----------



## VladDracul

Give it a whirl Dawg and quit worrying about it. You've made the decision. If she cleans up her act you'll likely be ok. I think a lot of concern we have relates to her falling off the wagon and you ending up in the same spot. Only time will tell and you can deal with it if it happens.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> But sometimes, the husband is doing all he can and making an attempt not to be boring. But that isn't enough sometimes.
> 
> Most husbands and wives work so many hours nowadays that they have no time for each other and they drift apart. Put kids in the mix and all the exhaustion that entails...?
> 
> "Well why aren't you having date nights?"
> 
> "Why don't you make enough salary to fly your wife to Lake Cuomo once a year?"
> 
> "Why aren't you courting your wife and sending her love notes and flowers and making together time, and blah, blah, blah, blah.....?"
> 
> It takes a fvcking enormous effort to run a marriage and family these days, with all the unreasonable pressure that our society puts on couples nowadays.
> 
> Why the hell would anyone want to get married anymore?


Yes, it is certainly possible that no matter what a man does, his wife will cheat, refuse sex, and all the rest of the sad catalog, and Athol makes that clear. But if the man improves himself and his wife doesn't follow along, at least he will be in better shape for the next relationship, of whatever type.

And I would not advise any man to marry under the current rules in the Anglosphere at least (US, UK, Australia, NZ). I do believe from indirect evidence that Spanish-speaking countries aren't as misandrist in practice as the English-speaking ones, but don't take my word for this.


----------



## MattMatt

tech-novelist said:


> This really belongs on the thread about pet peeves in grammar, but it is *sow*, not *sew*, wild oats.


Sow what does that matter? ; )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bongo

Dyokemm said:


> And yet, if a man says he's cheating because his wife is disinterested in sex and their intimate life is bland.....he is a complete POS.
> 
> I actually agree he is.....just don't like the assumed double standard that WW are justified if their BH's are 'boring'......that's bullsh*t.
> 
> A boring partner of either sex is a definite excuse to issue an ultimatum:
> 
> "Get off your lazy a** and address this issue or I'm going to divorce you.....I did not sign up for a M like this."
> 
> It is NOT an excuse to turn into a backstabbing traitor, not for men OR WOMEN.
> 
> Any woman who cites 'boredom' as her justification for cheating is a disgusting slag......no better than a man who screws around because he claims he isn't getting enough sex at home.


Athol Kay seems to be an idiot, IMO.


----------



## VladDracul

tech-novelist said:


> This really belongs on the thread about pet peeves in grammar, but it is *sow*, not *sew*, wild oats.


I'd hate think what you feel about some of the crap I write.


----------



## tech-novelist

Bongo said:


> Athol Kay seems to be an idiot, IMO.


I don't agree.

He does think more highly of his sex rank than I think is warranted, given the fact that his wife is at best a 5, but he still has quite a bit of good advice.


----------



## Bongo

tech-novelist said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> He does think more highly of his sex rank than I think is warranted, given the fact that his wife is at best a 5, but he still has quite a bit of good advice.


Well, we agree on the sex rank number to some extent, although I would go about 3 for both them. I do not think much of his advice, however.


----------



## LosingHim

bandit.45 said:


> But sometimes, the husband is doing all he can and making an attempt not to be boring. But that isn't enough sometimes.
> 
> Most husbands and wives work so many hours nowadays that they have no time for each other and they drift apart. Put kids in the mix and all the exhaustion that entails...?
> 
> "Well why aren't you having date nights?"
> 
> "Why don't you make enough salary to fly your wife to Lake Cuomo once a year?"
> 
> "Why aren't you courting your wife and sending her love notes and flowers and making together time, and blah, blah, blah, blah.....?"
> 
> It takes a fvcking enormous effort to run a marriage and family these days, with all the unreasonable pressure that our society puts on couples nowadays.
> 
> Why the hell would anyone want to get married anymore?


Take J’s golf and flag football on the weekends out of the equation, we don’t have any time for each other. (Maybe that’s part of the reason I get resentful that he plays golf and flag football) When I read these things of advice that say “Spend a minimum of 15 hours a week just talking to each other”. Psssshhht. When?

I work full time, with a part time job I currently only work one day every 2 weeks that will go to 2-3 days a week in November. For arguments sake, lets say I work 50 hours each week. J works 40 hours per week plus coaches high school football, games, practices and coaches meetings add up to about 25 hours per week. So that’s 65 hours per week. 

There’s 168 hours in a week. I’m working 50 of those, J’s working 65 of those. That leaves us 103 hours a week. Let’s say you sleep 7 hours a night. That’s 49 hours lost, so you’re down to 54 hours a week. We have 3 kids. Each child has sports practices several days a week. 2 children have games 2 days per week, 1 child has a game 1 day per week. Let’s total that at 15 hours per week, we’re down to 34 hours per week. The kids have homework every night they sometimes need help with, they want to run to friends houses and other sporting events for school, PTA meetings, cleaning the house, doing laundry, cleaning the pool, bathing the dogs and taking them to the vet, cooking dinner, doing the dishes, mowing the lawn, weeding the flower beds, canning the vegetables from the garden, spending time with your own parents and siblings, birthday parties, etc. ALL of that has to fit in to the remaining 34 hours per week. You have roughly 4.5 hours per day of time to get all of that done PLUS be a ‘good spouse’. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but how the hell are you supposed to be able to put in all of the effort that most spouses expect on such limited time? 

Sure, there are things you can do to show love. Send flowers, buy a little gift. But date night once a week? When? Sit down and talk uninterrupted and completely focused for 2 hours per night? When? 

Yes, we all make choices in life. I choose to work 2 jobs, J chooses to coach football. But coaching makes him happy. If he’s not happy, he can’t be happy with me. Happiness starts from within. Telling him to give up football to make our relationship better would be stupid. I’d be asking him to give up a part of himself to make ME happy. Then how happy would HE be? 

Yes, your marriage should be your primary focus, but who has the time to be the perfect spouse ALL the time? These days you have to squeeze being a perfect spouse into a few minutes a day. 

15 hours of uninterrupted time per week? Yeah, ok. I was happy J took the dog on a 15 minute walk with me last night.


----------



## Bongo

Well, if that 15 hour per week is gleaned from Willard Harley, you might consider that this nut also says you can never single night away from your spouse. You can never have a job that requires you be away overnight, never.
The guy is a fruitcake with incrdeibly sexist double standards, as well, IMO.


----------



## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> Meh, they divorced 17 years ago. Back then I understood her reasoning, because I was young and dumb too. I think she ‘blamed’ him because he got her pregnant. (yes, I know it takes 2 to tango, but we aren’t always rational in our thinking). She was pregnant during our senior year and gave birth shortly after. They got married quickly. I was a bridesmaid in their wedding, I remember we all snuck alcohol because we weren’t even old enough to drink. She loved him at the time (what 17 year old doesn’t think they’re in love?) They had another baby, resentment set in that he’d gotten to experience things she hadn’t. He raced horses, spent a lot of time at the barn and away from her. She was going to school to be a nurse and serving in a bar at night for extra money. Saw the crazy 19-21 year olds coming in to party, she never got to do it, etc. Became very resentful of her life being a mom and housewife young while he’d already done the party scene and they split up. She’s a lot different now at 38.


Good. Lesson learned I guess. Does she ever regret divorcing him?


----------



## bandit.45

tech-novelist said:


> This really belongs on the thread about pet peeves in grammar, but it is *sow*, not *sew*, wild oats.


So?


----------



## bandit.45

Bongo said:


> Athol Kay seems to be an idiot, IMO.


Athol Kay has some very good points and good ideas, but there is a lot of pseudo-psychology and snake oil mixed in there as well. You have to use your common sense and selective reasoning and take the parts that are practical to your situation and try them out. Ignore the rest. 

Same with Dr. Robert A. Glover (_No More Mister Nice Guy_). Most of the NMMNG dogma is on the mark, but you have to learn to not take some of that manly-man stuff too far. 

I could look at half the authors out there and call bullsh!t on much of what they tout, but there are a few diamonds scattered among the coal.


----------



## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> I work full time, with a part time job I currently only work one day every 2 weeks that will go to 2-3 days a week in November. For arguments sake, lets say I work 50 hours each week. J works 40 hours per week plus coaches high school football, games, practices and coaches meetings add up to about 25 hours per week. So that’s 65 hours per week.
> 
> There’s 168 hours in a week. I’m working 50 of those, J’s working 65 of those. That leaves us 103 hours a week. Let’s say you sleep 7 hours a night. That’s 49 hours lost, so you’re down to 54 hours a week. We have 3 kids. Each child has sports practices several days a week. 2 children have games 2 days per week, 1 child has a game 1 day per week. Let’s total that at 15 hours per week, we’re down to 34 hours per week. The kids have homework every night they sometimes need help with, they want to run to friends houses and other sporting events for school, PTA meetings, cleaning the house, doing laundry, cleaning the pool, bathing the dogs and taking them to the vet, cooking dinner, doing the dishes, mowing the lawn, weeding the flower beds, canning the vegetables from the garden, spending time with your own parents and siblings, birthday parties, etc. ALL of that has to fit in to the remaining 34 hours per week. You have roughly 4.5 hours per day of time to get all of that done PLUS be a ‘good spouse’. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but how the hell are you supposed to be able to put in all of the effort that most spouses expect on such limited time?
> 
> Sure, there are things you can do to show love. Send flowers, buy a little gift. But date night once a week? When? Sit down and talk uninterrupted and completely focused for 2 hours per night? When?
> 
> Yes, we all make choices in life. I choose to work 2 jobs, J chooses to coach football. But coaching makes him happy. If he’s not happy, he can’t be happy with me. Happiness starts from within. Telling him to give up football to make our relationship better would be stupid. I’d be asking him to give up a part of himself to make ME happy. Then how happy would HE be?
> 
> Yes, your marriage should be your primary focus, but who has the time to be the perfect spouse ALL the time? These days you have to squeeze being a perfect spouse into a few minutes a day.
> 
> 15 hours of uninterrupted time per week? Yeah, ok. I was happy J took the dog on a 15 minute walk with me last night.


It is amazing marriages last even half as long as they do nowadays. 

And most of all this extracurricular activity is bullsh!t. When I was playing High School football, I had practice two hours every night and a game every Friday. That was it.

Now? Now it is outrageous, because now along with high school football, you have league football, club football, and those clubs require kids to give up their springs and summers for weight lifting, training, football camp. Boys here in Texas eat, sh!t, sleep, dream, and fvck football. They can't even be normal boys anymore because they spend all their spare time training, going over formations, plays, weight lifting... They are pressured to be freakin' Walter Peytons by the time they are fifteen. And the parents take the brunt of all this over-achievement crapola. 

Or how about girls and gymnastics, or girl's softball? 

And nowadays the parents pay for all of it. The schools don't even foot the bill for the equipment anymore, despite mom and dad paying district taxes out the wazoo. So mom and dad have to work extra hours to make enough to pay for all this crap that their kids don't need. It is push, push, push, push 18 hours a day seven days a week. 

I feel for ya.


----------



## EllisRedding

bandit.45 said:


> And most of all this extracurricular activity is bullsh!t. When I was playing High School football, I had practice two hours every night and a game every Friday. That was it.
> 
> Now? Now it is outrageous, because now along with high school football, you have league football, club football, and those clubs require kids to give up their springs and summers for weight lifting, training, football camp. Boys here in Texas eat, sh!t, sleep, dream, and fvck football. They can't even be normal boys anymore because they spend all their spare time training, going over formations, plays, weight lifting... They are pressured to be freakin' Walter Peytons by the time they are fifteen. And the parents take the brunt of all this over-achievement crapola.


Sports programs are ridiculous these days. Even though it has been shown repeatedly (and even repeated by college coaches) that kids should not be dedicating themselves to one sport, that is all you see. My son's soccer league (8yr) pretty much wanted him to be solely dedicated to soccer, which included 2-3 practices a week, multiple games per week, and then during the off season there was optional (read: mandatory) training, so pretty much year round. The same thing is going on with all sports, and the parents are as much to blame. As much as I loved playing sports and want to see my kids participating, there is some pause in keeping them from getting too involved in. Family time, seems like no one cares about that anymore. Many holidays, which used to be family time, are now designated as "Let go travel for miles on end to play in a tournament".


----------



## LosingHim

bandit.45 said:


> Good. Lesson learned I guess. Does she ever regret divorcing him?


I don’t know that she regrets divorcing him romance wise. But I do know she thinks he’s a GREAT dad. And he’s been a really good friend to her. I’m sure she has some pangs of regret that her kids didn’t get to grow up in the same house as mom and dad 24/7, but on the other hand I know she really values his friendship these days – which they may not have if they’d stayed married and just grown more resentful towards each other. I've honestly NEVER seen a friendship between exes like they have. They have coparented perfectly and genuinely care about each other as human beings and each want the other to be happy - just not together.


----------



## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> I don’t know that she regrets divorcing him romance wise. But I do know she thinks he’s a GREAT dad. And he’s been a really good friend to her. I’m sure she has some pangs of regret that her kids didn’t get to grow up in the same house as mom and dad 24/7, but on the other hand I know she really values his friendship these days – which they may not have if they’d stayed married and just grown more resentful towards each other. I've honestly NEVER seen a friendship between exes like they have. They have coparented perfectly and genuinely care about each other as human beings and each want the other to be happy - just not together.


That is a rare thing. Would you and your husband have that if you two split?


----------



## bandit.45

EllisRedding said:


> . *Many holidays, which used to be family time, are now designated as "Let go travel for miles on end to play in a tournament".*


You nailed that. I totally agree. It is ridiculous.


----------



## weltschmerz

tech-novelist said:


> As I recall Athol Kay has said (obviously oversimplified), "If you're boring, she's whoring."


Sometimes people don't have the luxury of not being boring when they're thousands of miles away risking life and limb to make it through another day, another hour just to be able to get back home.

Seen many a sturdy lad breakdown and crumble when they learnt their WAGs were whoring.


----------



## Lostinthought61

weltschmerz said:


> Sometimes people don't have the luxury of not being boring when they're thousands of miles away risking life and limb to make it through another day, another hour just to be able to get back home.
> 
> Seen many a sturdy lad breakdown and crumble when they learnt their WAGs were whoring.


Weltschmerz long time no hear...how are things going with you, are you still on the road to recovery?


----------



## weltschmerz

EllisRedding said:


> Sports programs are ridiculous these days. Even though it has been shown repeatedly (and even repeated by college coaches) that kids should not be dedicating themselves to one sport, that is all you see. My son's soccer league (8yr) pretty much wanted him to be solely dedicated to soccer, which included 2-3 practices a week, multiple games per week, and then during the off season there was optional (read: mandatory) training, so pretty much year round. The same thing is going on with all sports, and the parents are as much to blame. As much as I loved playing sports and want to see my kids participating, there is some pause in keeping them from getting too involved in. Family time, seems like no one cares about that anymore. Many holidays, which used to be family time, are now designated as "Let go travel for miles on end to play in a tournament".


It's not as much the parents but the sports themselves are getting a lot more demanding than they used to be.

My nephew is signed on to a football youth academy for a a top tier club here in Manchester. Constant practice means my sister is pretty much a chauffeur 24 * 7, but the boy is getting to rub shoulders with some pretty talented lads. Might spur him to make it to the next level. Sacrifices must be made.


----------



## weltschmerz

Xenote said:


> Weltschmerz long time no hear...how are things going with you, are you still on the road to recovery?


Pretty much. Just a passing storm at this point but sometimes I wonder about the worst case scenarios, if he'd pushed it or played the game for some more time. S'alright though. I'd still feed the sh!te his teeth if our paths crossed :grin2:


----------



## Lostinthought61

And more importantly how is your wife doing ? is she doing the heavy lifting ?


----------



## LosingHim

bandit.45 said:


> That is a rare thing. Would you and your husband have that if you two split?


I think eventually. J is not a hateful man. He's also seen what I've gone through with my ex and he's always hated that for our family. He fully thinks that when there are children involved that you should try hard to remain friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LosingHim

bandit.45 said:


> It is amazing marriages last even half as long as they do nowadays.
> 
> And most of all this extracurricular activity is bullsh!t. When I was playing High School football, I had practice two hours every night and a game every Friday. That was it.
> 
> Now? Now it is outrageous, because now along with high school football, you have league football, club football, and those clubs require kids to give up their springs and summers for weight lifting, training, football camp. Boys here in Texas eat, sh!t, sleep, dream, and fvck football. They can't even be normal boys anymore because they spend all their spare time training, going over formations, plays, weight lifting... They are pressured to be freakin' Walter Peytons by the time they are fifteen. And the parents take the brunt of all this over-achievement crapola.
> 
> Or how about girls and gymnastics, or girl's softball?
> 
> And nowadays the parents pay for all of it. The schools don't even foot the bill for the equipment anymore, despite mom and dad paying district taxes out the wazoo. So mom and dad have to work extra hours to make enough to pay for all this crap that their kids don't need. It is push, push, push, push 18 hours a day seven days a week.
> 
> I feel for ya.


This is my week:

MM (15 girl - sport soccer) - practice every day 6-730 (since April) scrimmages and tournaments almost every Saturday. Sundays are for mandatory car washes, parades, mini camps wjere they coach younger kids. First game was this past Tuesday. Now that school has started, practice is every day 3-430. Game ever Thursday and Saturday. She plays JV, but has to be there for the varsity game. So game nights are 4 hours. 2 hours of playing, 2 hours of watching. She also has to go to the boys JV and varsity games. So that's usually 6 hours on Saturdays and another 4 hours on Tuesdays. Sundays are still for parades or community events - mandatory.

MJ (12 boy - sport football) - practice every day 6-830 Monday through Friday. Now that school has started practice is every day 3-5. Games on Tuesdays. They are expected to go to the varsity game every Friday night and re JV game Saturday morning if they can make it.

AJ (9 girl - sport soccer) - practice every Tuesday and Thursday 530-630. Game every Monday and Saturday.

J coaches high school football. Practice every day from 3-6. Has to attend the 9th grade game every Thursday night. Of course has to be at the varsity game every Friday night that starts at 7 but has to be at the field at 5. Back to the JV game Saturday morning and then 2-3 hours of tapes afterwards and coaches meeting every Sunday night at 7 for 2-3 hours. 

Sound a bit ridiculous???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

LosingHim said:


> Sound a bit ridiculous???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




It sure does! You need to stop that soccer crap and get those girls in the kitchen.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

[/kidding]


----------



## LosingHim

WorkingOnMe said:


> It sure does! You need to stop that soccer crap and get those girls in the kitchen.


Lmao! They should just be making sammiches!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bongo

LosingHim said:


> LJ has already said he caught her in the LTA - she fessed up to the two ONS on her own. Isn't that correct?
> 
> What the hell kind of sense would it make to admit to two more instances of cheating but lie that one of them was a rape? The fact that she was going there for sex is enough of a nail in the coffin to end the marriage.
> 
> Yes, she had I'll intent meeting up with that man. That I'll intent was CONSENSUAL sex outside of her marriage. Not rape.
> 
> Yes, cheaters lie. So do non cheaters. Would you question the rape of a woman if she wasn't a cheater? She's admitted to TWO affairs. Doesn't make sense to say the third was a rape. Because two would be excusable but 3 would not?
> 
> Unless you've experienced rape you have no idea how shameful it is to disclose. I really don't think that many women make up rape. Unless you're watching Law and Order.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have experienced it,at age 11. More men than women are raped in this country in prison. So,let' s not confine this to women victims.
Could be she was raped. Could be that claiming one was a rape would elicit sympathy diverting attention from her abusive behavior.


----------



## LucasJackson

If you had been there when she finally opened up about the rape you'd know she wasn't putting on a show. We also took her to the doctor to be examined. Keep in mind this was well after it happened and the doctor said she had suffered major trauma to her anus. It had been torn but was scarring and healing. She said she had bled from there for a couple weeks after it happened. All cheating stopped then even with the AP she could "trust". It snapped her out of it. She thinks it was God trying to wake her up before it was too late. I'm not religious myself but who's to say it wasn't? I don't know.


----------



## Yosemite

LucasJackson said:


> I did the death bed question. If today was your last day on earth, you're on your death bed, and you can have only 1 person to sit with you as you pass, who would you want it to be?
> 
> The truth for me is that I'd still want it to be her. That is why I'm giving this a go.


That's not a good reason. 

All that says is that you are maintaining an unhealthy attachement with a toxic individual who has, and most likely will continue, to cause you pain beyond your wildest imagination.


----------



## LosingHim

@LucasJackson – we’ve derailed your thread quite a bit. Sorry about that. 

At this point, I am sure it is frustrating to read this thread. Not much support and a lot of people telling you you didn’t make the right move. Only YOU can decide that though. Not a bunch of people on the internet.

I personally wish you and your wife the best. And I hope the others here will respect your decision and start giving advice on how to help rebuild your marriage instead of just telling you you’re wrong. I think that is what you need right now.


----------



## TX-SC

LosingHim said:


> @LucasJackson – we’ve derailed your thread quite a bit. Sorry about that.
> 
> At this point, I am sure it is frustrating to read this thread. Not much support and a lot of people telling you you didn’t make the right move. Only YOU can decide that though. Not a bunch of people on the internet.
> 
> I personally wish you and your wife the best. And I hope the others here will respect your decision and start giving advice on how to help rebuild your marriage instead of just telling you you’re wrong. I think that is what you need right now.


Sounds like great advice for everyone posting here, including me. 

So, what are your plans LJ? How do you move forward knowing what you know? Do you believe your wife has really changed?


----------



## LucasJackson

LosingHim said:


> @LucasJackson – we’ve derailed your thread quite a bit. Sorry about that.
> 
> At this point, I am sure it is frustrating to read this thread. Not much support and a lot of people telling you you didn’t make the right move. Only YOU can decide that though. Not a bunch of people on the internet.
> 
> I personally wish you and your wife the best. And I hope the others here will respect your decision and start giving advice on how to help rebuild your marriage instead of just telling you you’re wrong. I think that is what you need right now.


I understand the "you're a sucker" sentiment. We've all seen a lot of people being played. If I get played then so be it. I'll leave the marriage with my head held high knowing I gave her a second chance. I also recognized in myself too rigid of a sense of right and wrong. I was too black and white. The world doesn't work like that.

I watched a documentary once where they the director was interviewing his own grandfather. He said to gramps back in your day you stayed together. There was less cheating and people respected their vows more. His grandfather and grandmother were married 67 years when she passed away. 

It was hilarious because this sweet little old man replied "bullsh*t!" He went on to say that we have an unrealistic perception of the good ole days. He also said that both he and his wife had cheated on each other at different times in their marriage. He fell in love with a French girl during the war and almost left his wife to be with her, but he didn't, she forgave him, they worked through it and pressed on. He went on to tell how his wife, a school teacher, had a love affair with another teacher for a little over a year. He found out, she ended the affair, apologized, worked through it, and they stayed together. He was by her side in the hospital when she died. They had a successful lifelong marriage. They loved each other as much as any of us or our spouses have ever loved each other and yet they both cheated. Life is complicated, it's not all black and white.


----------



## larry.gray

BetrayedDad said:


> You convinced she was raped? I'm not. Best way to get someone to forgive you is to make them pity you. She's sounds like a master manipulator to me. She wouldn't be the first to cry wolf to bail herself out of a bad situation. The pity card is the go to card of cheaters.


QFT

If this really is her fantasy, it isn't rape. She wanted it.

Her saying it was _after_ makes it _regret_, a very different thing.


----------



## LucasJackson

larry.gray said:


> QFT
> 
> If this really is her fantasy, it isn't rape. She wanted it.
> 
> Her saying it was _after_ makes it _regret_, a very different thing.


They didn't meet for this specifically. When they were sharing fantasies she mentioned being held down and forced as just one of them. Harlequin romance style not brutal rape style. She didn't ask for it although that is what a defense attorney would say and why so many victims stay quiet.


----------



## LosingHim

LucasJackson said:


> They didn't meet for this specifically. When they were sharing fantasies she mentioned being held down and forced as just one of them. Harlequin romance style not brutal rape style. She didn't ask for it although that is what a defense attorney would say and why so many victims stay quiet.


MANY women have the fantasy of forceful sex. A lot of women have rape fantasies. That does not mean they want to BE raped. And usually the forceful sex fantasy is more of ‘role-playing’ thing then actual REAL force. 

And fantasies are JUST that. I bet if you polled all the members of TAM – 99% of them don’t actually want to ACT OUT their fantasy. It’s just the thoughts that turn us on. I personally have a pretty wicked one that involves me, J and a hot blonde. J knows about it. But that does not mean I actually want to DO it. That does not mean J can show up with a hot blonde and force me to act out the fantasy without my permission, just because I’d said I had fantasized about it. If he did show up with a hot blonde, I STILL have the right to say “No, I don’t want this”. He doesn’t have the right to say “Well you’re doing it because you’ve said thinking about it turns you on!”


----------



## bandit.45

Lucas i don't think you are a sucker or a fool. It is your life man. 

Just make sure you have a backup plan if she pulls this stuff again. Have a savings set up for lawyer fees, have a post-nup agreement drawn up and maker her sign it, and make sure she understands that if she does this again...she's gone. You will help her pack her bags and she will be gone for good. No third chances.


----------



## VladDracul

LucasJackson said:


> Harlequin romance style not brutal rape style. She didn't ask for it although that is what a defense attorney would say and why so many victims stay quiet.


Her prior discussion about wanting it with the perp and then willingly showing up at the hotel where the alleged rape took place does add a thick layer of reasonable doubt. Unless the DA subscribed to the standard that a woman should always be believed in such matters, its unlikely they would seek an indictment. 
In a "Harlequin Romance" style, the forceful sex is the sex heroin wanted but the aggression of her suitor allows her to still have the sex and to keep her dignity by saying no. Outfits like this that makes the "no really means yes" kind of guy cool, powerful and desirable, are really doing a disservice to women and men alike..


----------



## bandit.45

I dated one gal who wanted "Straw Dogs" rape fantasy. I had to go and watch the movie to see what that was. So we did it, and she liked it, she got off, I did not....I didn't feel comfortable afterwards and it was the last time I slept with her. I felt guilty for a couple of weeks after that, even with her calling me for a follow-up date. I don't like doing that vile sh!t to women, even if they desire it. 

I don't understand the rage behind a man who would sodomize a woman like the OM did with OP's WW. Whatever she was up to behind Lucas's back, she didn't deserve that. But I do think she deserves the self loathing she feels for putting herself in the position where that could happen. Hopefully that feeling will dissuade her from ever setting herself up for that kind of situation again. 

She's goddamn lucky the jerkwad didn't kill her.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

LucasJackson said:


> I'll leave the marriage with my head held high knowing I gave her a second chance.


That right man, no one can ever take that freedom of choice from you, make sure she is clear on that..... And I can tell you there is nothing wrong with giving someone a second chance, do you know how many people in this world wish they had one and didnt ever, even for lesser things than infidelity and honest mistakes? A ton.... 
That's one of the things that helped me cope with my W affair... In the past I did screw up once too, big and knowingly (non relationship related) and I remember how badly I felt and how much I wanted a second chance to prove that it would never happen again, and one person saw that and helped me get the biggest break in my life so far, and am thankful or it.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
It is my sincerest desire that you find yourself among the select few. Most people who cheat lack mental development and in the vast majority of cases it is a permanent condition. There are very rare exceptions for reasons I do not fully comprehend. Perhaps the mental insufficiency is less in some individuals than in others which allows a small amount of growth to be sufficient to cause fundamental change in their character thereby altering their behavior going forward. This is to me the most plausible theory I have considered.

One such individual has posted here on your thread and she has shown that growth is indeed possible in some instances, certainly not in all cases but a very select few. In any event, it is not without the realm of possibility that your wife is among that small percentage of cheaters who can actually experience growth and become a better person. There is only one way to know this with certainty and that is to experience it over time. Her actions will betray her words if her words are not sincere.

If she is sincere however, then she will indeed show her resolve as she appears to have begun to do already based on your change of heart regarding R. You must not think yourself weak nor foolish for making the attempt and since we are not privy to her emotions and feelings we are ill prepared to say with any degree of accuracy what the outcome will be. You are in a much better position to gauge that than are we IF you are considering things pragmatically.

It is impossible to completely separate emotions from the equation but you appear to be mostly balanced in your thinking based on your posts. Therefore I believe that your W may indeed be one of the select few. However, I would caution you against believing too much too quickly. Time is the ultimate test and you need to be willing to take as much as you need to be convinced that she is sincere, that her remorse is heartfelt and that her intentions are true. Good fortune to you sir.


----------



## ABHale

Sorry to see where this has gone. Very sorry for your wife being raped. 

Never the less, I think you will regret your decision to stay with her. Win win for her still, she cheated and got to keep you. People might wonder why so many cheat. I would say there are no consequences for the one that cheats. She says all the right things and the betrayed husband falls for it. She got her itch scratched and kept you from leaving. 

One question, you never even kissed another female during this did you? You stayed completely loyal to her, right?

We will see what a year brings.


----------



## manfromlamancha

LJ, I have been following your thread from the start, and I must say that I am truly awed by your turnaround. I felt your wrath at the start and the uncompromising approach to dealing with this and I fully understood it.

However, I have got to say that this is one of those times when, what I call the JLD approach (sorry, JLD) which I don't always agree with, does apply! Your wife needed and still needs your help. You need hers. She loves you but could not trust enough to tell you about her desires, concerns and finally about what she had done - that is very obvious from her behaviour post-rape. You, even more obviously now, love her but were too scared to forgive and reconcile.

I am glad that you found it in you to give her a chance. And she is not a weak person anymore - she found the strength to try DBing you back into the marriage - despite the agony of her rape, loss of respect by her kids/husband/family etc and also that of her deceit which must weigh her down.

I admire and respect you for what you are doing and acknowledging that its not always black and white (although I have been accused of being black and white many times when it comes to infidelity).

Do not forget that you need to take care of yourself first or else you will not be able to help her or your marriage - you need to grieve, rage, question, and ride this carousel before coming out the other side.

Now onto the rape - I think I understand what you are going through with wanting to kill the [email protected]@rd who did this to your wife (to any woman for that matter). And this is made worse by the fact that had you pursued this legally, he would walk free and maybe even sue you. The law sure does suck sometimes.

I am a vengeful person and sometimes a bit too prideful and I would be plotting his slow, painful demise all the time but for the sake of my family, would do nothing about it. You do need some help/counselling to get through this particular aspect of your trauma.

I sincerely wish you and your wife the very best of luck going forward. You now (as opposed to the start of this thread) sound like a pretty deep and reflective person and therefore, more than equipped to give your wife and yourself the best possible chance of fixing this. Not bad for a wild musician eh ? I was one too. Except that I believe that music kind of died going from the 60's and 70's into the 80's with its total demise now (yeah I know, a bigot!).

Take care LJ and go kiss your wife again and again!


----------



## Yosemite

LucasJackson said:


> I understand the "you're a sucker" sentiment. We've all seen a lot of people being played. If I get played then so be it. I'll leave the marriage with my head held high knowing I gave her a second chance.


Now is the chance to walk out of the marriage with your head held about as high as it's ever going to get.


----------



## Wolfman1968

post deleted...others have been more eloquent on my points.


----------



## lordmayhem

BetrayedDad said:


> You convinced she was raped? I'm not. Best way to get someone to forgive you is to make them pity you. She's sounds like a master manipulator to me. She wouldn't be the first to cry wolf to bail herself out of a bad situation. The pity card is the go to card of cheaters.


I'm not either. After reading through everything, this smells like the typical WW claiming to be raped by an OM. I've seen this in real life, and occasionally in the movies. 

But we'll just have to see. If she's faking remorse, then the fake remorse will not last a year and she'll soon be complaining about how long she has to continue to pay.

She should be busting her ass to earn a shot at R. The fakers soon get tired of pretending to be remorseful.

Plus the OP here seems to have a KISA complex. The resentment has been swept under the rug for now.


----------



## MattMatt

​


Yosemite said:


> Now is the chance to walk out of the marriage with your head held about as high as it's ever going to get.


Or why not cut his nose off to spite his face? That'd be great, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

MattMatt said:


> ​
> 
> 
> Or why not cut his nose off to spite his face? That'd be great, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




A better analogy is getting repeated lumps in a breast. Maybe three. Cutting off the breast is often the best course of action to save the life. 

He can rationalize staying all he wants. The question through is - will he be happy and enjoy life, or just surviving?


----------



## MattMatt

blueinbr said:


> A better analogy is getting repeated lumps in a breast. Maybe three. Cutting off the breast is often the best course of action to save the life.
> 
> He can rationalize staying all he wants. The question through is - will he be happy and enjoy life, or just surviving?


This is a bit like the utilitarian argument expressed by some people on TAM that it doesn't really matter who you share you life with, so long as they give you lots of sex.


----------



## 225985

MattMatt said:


> This is a bit like the utilitarian argument expressed by some people on TAM that it doesn't really matter who you share you life with, so long as they give you lots of sex.




No. The argument here is knowing when it is better to leave than stay. Something i personally have failed at.


----------



## VladDracul

MattMatt said:


> This is a bit like the utilitarian argument expressed by some people on TAM that it doesn't really matter who you share you life with, so long as they give you lots of sex.


Hey, don't get personal. :grin2:

Seriously, it does make me wonder if some guys would rather be with a HD girl who diddled around a time or two than a LD girl that never wanted to give it up as they say.


----------



## MattMatt

blueinbr said:


> No. The argument here is knowing when it is better to leave than stay. Something i personally have failed at.


Some people cannot forgive at all.

Others just take any s**t they are given and forgive anything.

There's a middle way, though. Isn't there?


----------



## ABHale

Learn to forgive yes. 

Trust someone that was suppost to be there for you, never again. 

Hold that person accountable for their acts,YES. 

Have real consequences like divorce, always. 

If you work things out afterwards great. But the divorce will bring her true self out. Also, if she still fights for you afterwards I would be more likely to believe she was in love still. 

No consequences equals rugsweep.


----------



## MattMatt

ABHale said:


> Learn to forgive yes.
> 
> Trust someone that was suppost to be there for you, never again.
> 
> Hold that person accountable for their acts,YES.
> 
> Have real consequences like divorce, always.
> 
> If you work things out afterwards great. But the divorce will bring her true self out. Also, if she still fights for you afterwards I would be more likely to believe she was in love still.
> 
> No consequences equals rugsweep.


Depends what you mean by consequences, I suppose.

Do you want revenge, reconciliation or what?


----------



## farsidejunky

ABHale said:


> Learn to forgive yes.
> 
> Trust someone that was suppost to be there for you, never again.
> 
> Hold that person accountable for their acts,YES.
> 
> Have real consequences like divorce, always.
> 
> If you work things out afterwards great. But the divorce will bring her true self out. Also, if she still fights for you afterwards I would be more likely to believe she was in love still.
> 
> No consequences equals rugsweep.


I think this is where the debate really lies.

I tend to agree with @LosingHim that she fantasized about being taken, not about being raped. There is a huge difference. I think it is clear that it was rape.

Reality gave her stern consequences. Enough to wake her up.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Bottom line is: if she is lying about being raped then shame on her! Sure! And the truth might out itself at some time.

However, taking her cry for help due to the rape seriously still makes you a better man, LJ (whether she is lying or not). Much better to err on the side of caution in this case.

Without a doubt, trust has to be re-earned - that is a whole different story. But compassion comes from within.

As a younger man, I knew this to be case but was much too stubborn and prideful to relent and give a sinner a chance. Secretly, I was afraid it would make me a lesser man. I can categorically say that I know better now (not a lot better, but some).

LJ let fly, just like we all would but managed to reign it in and do something not many of us would - you took a chance and gave in to your inner voice. Good for you. But you still need to be careful as others are advising.


----------



## drifting on

farsidejunky said:


> I think this is where the debate really lies.
> 
> I tend to agree with @LosingHim that she fantasized about being taken, not about being raped. There is a huge difference. I think it is clear that it was rape.
> 
> Reality gave her stern consequences. Enough to wake her up.




I think both @farsidejunky and @LosingHim are correct about the fantasy. However, I think it is due to wording that keeps others from possibly seeing what Lucas wife wanted. When you say rape you see an offender and a victim, this is natural, and therefore you give compassion towards the victim. Since she was meeting to cheat on her marriage people don't want to give that compassion and that she got what she deserved. Let me state here that nobody deserves to be raped, and that it is a very emotional and scary event for the victim, I've seen it many times. I think the word that needs to be here is ravaged. It is my perception that Lucas's wife wanted to be ravaged by a male, she wanted to be taken by a man who was on an island for two years alone. She didn't want to be raped but rather taken and ravaged, but still loved in a way. 

I find it hard to believe she wanted to be raped, again wording I think makes this confusing. I believe she was raped in every sense of the word, and in court would lose. That doesn't mean it's not rape though, how would you decide if you were a juror? I have fantasies myself, way to shy to reveal them here, but wanting to be ravaged by another is great, in the end I want that person to be my wife, not someone else. Just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Lucas

What exactly are you hoping for with this thread? What do you want or need? I find it great that you are reconciling, because I see your wife making changes to be a better person. A person who made terrible choices, could have been seriously harmed, but appears to be healing. I think she is full of remorse, apologetic, and grateful. She is doing everything she can to save what she so foolishly almost threw away. 

My advice is to work in you Lucas, be the best you can be. Have your wife do the same, go to MC, work through this, and see what you have in a year. I think you might be pleasantly surprised by your wife. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

lordmayhem said:


> I'm not either. After reading through everything, this smells like the typical WW claiming to be raped by an OM. I've seen this in real life, and occasionally in the movies.
> 
> But we'll just have to see. If she's faking remorse, then the fake remorse will not last a year and she'll soon be complaining about how long she has to continue to pay.
> 
> She should be busting her ass to earn a shot at R. The fakers soon get tired of pretending to be remorseful.
> 
> Plus the OP here seems to have a KISA complex. The resentment has been swept under the rug for now.


Hey LM! Where the hell you been?


----------



## LucasJackson

Many are overlooking that we went to the doctor. Her anus had been torn and had healed poorly with a lot of scarring because she was afraid to go to a doctor. If she was lying about the rape then she was really willing to sell the lie by someone violating herself anally and causing major tearing. Sound feasible? Doesn't to me either. The bottom line is my wife did not murder children. She cheated on me. That totally sucked and crushed my heart beyond imagination. 

Since then she was separated from me and our entire family quite a while. We were in the same house but she was shunned by all of us. Shunned by the 3 people she gave birth to. She lost her job, her friends, her status in the community. She couldn't/wouldn't show her face at school functions. She missed a lot of great moments for our daughter. She was also raped, physically and mentally scarred, and has carried that burden alone until now. She bore this "punishment" and told me, our children, and IC that she deserved it.

My wife has "give her pound of flesh" for this crime she has committed against me. Still, she tortures herself over and over with guilt, shame, and remorse. I have come to realize in a very short time that she has paid a worse punishment than the crime she committed. I was too hardcore "off with your head" over this thing. I was cruel, damn cruel to her, because I was hurt. I'm ashamed of that. Again, the world is not just black and white. Going outside the marriage was 100% on her, and she 100% accepts that. The overly comfortable "boring" marriage we had before the cheating was 50% my fault. Maybe even higher a %. The cruelty beyond the crime after d-day is 100% my fault. I'm a vengeful man and I darn near destroyed her will to live. That's not something a decent person does and I have to live with that myself.

I've been doing so much reading because the "accepted" logic is that the marriage is doomed after infidelity. Factually, most marriages survive infidelity. I told about the couple that were married almost 70 years and everyone assumed it was a fairy tale marriage but come to find out at different points along the way they had each had affairs.

Do some google searching about couples whose marriages have survived affairs and you'll find out that's most marriages where there was infidelity.

If the cheater is a repeat offender my opinion is still "off with their head". Anyone who blows a 2nd chance does not deserve a 3rd. It's been years since my wife's affair(s) and she has not misbehaved in any way.

This will be my last post on this thread unless someone has a specific question that might help them with their own situation. If there is a development during R then I'll start a new thread about the R. 

The bottom line is I'm committed to us celebrating 30 years married here in a couple months spending the rest of our lives together. As long as she honors her 2nd chance we'll be married until one of us dies.

I wish everyone else well and success with whatever they're going through. If I've learned anything it's to not be so hardcore black and white when it comes to right vs wrong. People screw up. Sometimes really good people do really bad things. It doesn't mean they're a lost cause. Peace.


----------



## drifting on

Lucas

Everything you are feeling I have felt before. You don't think people weren't breaking out 2X4's when I admitted my wife's affair produced twins?? How many times do you think I felt crazy for offering reconciliation? Many people helped me, even those swinging the lumber, they have shown me different perspectives I hadn't witnessed. I think it is sad you are receiving so much grief for doing what you feel is best for you. 

You are the person in control of your life, nobody else, so you do what you feel is best. Being a marine has nothing to do with infidelity, not even in how you handle it. That has come into your head now and you probably feel weak, you're not. What you are about to attempt takes strength, even if you can't see it. 

You need to go through forgiveness, accept what has happened. You need to know the details, sounds as if you do, then you need to commit fully to reconciling. If you can't then leave, if you can then commit. Work through forgiveness, get all of it out, and when forgiveness is over, so is speaking of the affairs. I'm not saying you forget, but it's not your win all arguments card either. Reconciling is more then holding this over her head, it's recommitting to the marriage. 

Start fixing the areas of marriage that you made errors. Start being the best you you can be. Self reflect on yourself, own your crap. Begin being vulnerable to allow your wife to earn trust with you. This is on you, she can do everything right, but it's on you that has to be vulnerable so she can earn your trust back. Take the leap of faith and re-enter your marriage. You will struggle with this along with being vulnerable. Your wife is remorseful, she has taken your behavior, she has taken it from your kids. Yet she stands before you waiting for more, it's time to be a marine and fight for those that can't. You know what I mean here, that's what marines do. You fight to help your wife even if you decide to later divorce, help her be her best for the kids. I chose to do that, my kids deserve this, that's right my kids. They had no choice, I didn't either as my wife did not consult me on having an affair. If anything be the best for them. 

I strongly suggest you also go to church. This is your choice fully but it has helped me. I guess for me it helped as I blamed God many times for allowing my wife to cheat. I was very confused the first six months after d-day, I lost my faith, but it has returned. 

You are going to have many moments you will want to throw in the towel and walk. It's normal, just focus back on making this reconciliation better. You can pm me if you have any questions, I'll do what I can. 

Also, thank you for your service. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

No revenge. 

Just put her in a position to where she could walk away or try and restart/rebuild the relationship. 

Divorce is the consequences.

What she does after shows her true feelings. How else would you find out if you are plan B or not. Words don't mean a thing, her actions at this point would prove her out.


----------



## BetrayedDad

VladDracul said:


> Seriously, it does make me wonder if some guys would rather be with a HD girl who diddled around a time or two than a LD girl that never wanted to give it up as they say.


Rather simplistic choices. I find reading here it's almost always neither of those.

They are LD dead fish at home and HD porn stars when they "diddle" their AP.


----------



## *Deidre*

BetrayedDad said:


> You're clearly very traumatized too and rightfully so. Maybe you should start worrying more about YOU than her. She's already broken and she's slowly breaking you too.


Wish I didn't see it this way, but I do, too. I just think that if people want to reconcile, that's their choice of course, but think there are many people in life who are too afraid of the unknown (and the unknown is often better) than staying with a person who hurts them over and over. The familiar is often easier to handle, even if it's terrible, than what may await. And I also wonder how many betrayed spouses really work on themselves in terms of learning how to develop self respect. Or they just focus on the other person, watching for changes, etc and it becomes their whole life. 

People treat us as we allow them to, so if you have been cheated on several times, and you keep going back, it sounds like a classic example of someone who needs that ww to validate them to feel worthy.


----------



## bandit.45

Great. Not only does he have to deal with a fWW who is on a lifelong guilt trip, but she's also emotionally and mentally fvcked up from the sexual assault. 

Lucas is never going to get the chance to heal, because now he will be spending the rest of his life worrying about her and taking care of her sorry ass.

I'm sorry if I sound cruel, but Lucas is getting hosed....again.


----------



## Yosemite

bandit.45 said:


> Lucas is never going to get the chance to heal, because now he will be spending the rest of his life worrying about her and taking care of her sorry ass.


I'd like to think she's out with the next, inevitable strike.


----------



## MattMatt

Sometimes TAM reminds of the Sparks Song 1918.

In it an elderly couple act like it is still 1918, even driving to market every day in their Stanley Steamer.

They are happy but the rich folk of the town decide to give the couple an expensive makeover.

But the couple say they were happy living like it was 1918.

But their 'benefactors' become angry. They say it isn't 1918 anymore and if the townsfolk can't enjoy 1918, then neither should the couple.

In TAM terms that translates to "We didn't enjoy a reconciliation with our WS, so neither should you."

"Anything less than divorce and kicking your WS to the kerb is unacceptable and is just rugsweeping. Blah, blah, blah. Get a woman half your age who is really into you. Etc, etc, etc."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

Your thread title is odd. Why are you "screwed" if this is something you want and accept?


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## Yosemite

Because he knows he has lost the strength to do what he knows he has to do.


----------



## Vulcan2013

LJ, your fWW has really done everything right, even through you were clearly planning to D. It takes a lot of character to persevere through that and not look for an easier path with someone else. 

As to the rape, I believe that her story is true. Most false rape claims are either revenge, an attempt to avoid responsibility, or to play the victim. Her leaving in a lot of details that don't absolve her of anything really shows it's not from bad motivations. The doctors exam is also evidence. Her telling you was a big risk. Given your own hurt and anger, you weren't a safe choice. 

She's held that in for five years on her own. What a terrible burden. I hope with this out, the two of you can begin to heal.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't get the mentality of just up and leaving a thread that you started just because you are not liking some of the things that are said. 

I would have though Lucas was a bit tougher than that.


----------



## Bibi1031

bandit.45 said:


> I don't get the mentality of just up and leaving a thread that you started just because you are not liking some of the things that are said.
> 
> I would have though Lucas was a bit tougher than that.


I dunno, he is going through some very difficult times. His change of heart creates conflicts with others and within himself. He has made up his mind to give HIS WW a second chance. His choice and one he most certainly can make. While some agree with his choice but state caution, others believe his choice is foolish. 

I think I have thick skin and yet every thread I begin, I end up deleting because some comments just get too darn stubborn and hurtful. In my case, my own thread becomes counter productive for me as it makes me feel bad about myself and the choices I have and can make regardless of whether they are a mistake or not. 

This may be OP similar feelings as well. It is after all HIS life he is making the decisions for. He hurts NO ONE else here. maybe this thread has run its course, and he is slowly but surely pulling the plug by not responding.


----------



## 225985

Bibi1031 said:


> I dunno, he is going through some very difficult times. His change of heart creates conflicts with others and within himself. He has made up his mind to give HIS WW a second chance. His choice and one he most certainly can make. While some agree with his choice but state caution, others believe his choice is foolish.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I have thick skin and yet every thread I begin, I end up deleting because some comments just get too darn stubborn and hurtful. In my case, my own thread becomes counter productive for me as it makes me feel bad about myself and the choices I have and can make regardless of whether they are a mistake or not.
> 
> 
> 
> This may be OP similar feelings as well. It is after all HIS life he is making the decisions for. He hurts NO ONE else here. maybe this thread has run its course, and he is slowly but surely pulling the plug by not responding.




I think she is on her third chance at least, not second. 

We cannot delete threads anymore. So i probably like you won't create any new ones.


----------



## *Deidre*

I think part of the problem is the thread title, it doesn't seem like he's all that enthusiastic to give his wife ''another chance.'' I've never been married, so my two cents might not mean much, but at the same time, this particular situation sounds like it would be hard on the kids involved. I understand that people try to hold their marriages together for the sake of kids, assets, etc. But, what example does it set for your kids, when they keep living through mom and dad's ongoing, daily drama? So, that's my thing when I give advice here, it's not that I'm an advocate of cutting and running, but after multiple affairs, it would send a message to me that my spouse either doesn't love me anymore, or just doesn't want to be married. But, to keep giving someone chances, it affects the whole family, and the kids are watching all of this drama and chaos. Marriage shouldn't be about daily drama and chaos. It has its ups and downs, but what happened here goes way beyond the normal ups and downs and conflicts of marriage. 

I hope that if people choose to remain in their marriages, that they do it for the right reasons, and not out of fear. That's all.


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## MattMatt

blueinbr said:


> Your thread title is odd. Why are you "screwed" if this is something you want and accept?


I think it was an ironic title as he knew the "Burn all Cheaters!" mob would be on his case for wanting to use the "R" word.


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## 225985

MattMatt said:


> I think it was an ironic title as he knew the "Burn all Cheaters!" mob would be on his case for wanting to use the "R" word.




I thought the "burn the cheaters" gang were all banned.


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## MattMatt

blueinbr said:


> I thought the "burn the cheaters" gang were all banned.


Really? Hurrah!


----------



## bandit.45

*Deidre* said:


> I think part of the problem is the thread title, it doesn't seem like he's all that enthusiastic to give his wife ''another chance.'' I've never been married, so my two cents might not mean much, but at the same time, this particular situation sounds like it would be hard on the kids involved. I understand that people try to hold their marriages together for the sake of kids, assets, etc. But, what example does it set for your kids, when they keep living through mom and dad's ongoing, daily drama? So, that's my thing when I give advice here, it's not that I'm an advocate of cutting and running, but after multiple affairs, it would send a message to me that my spouse either doesn't love me anymore, or just doesn't want to be married. But, to keep giving someone chances, it affects the whole family, and the kids are watching all of this drama and chaos. Marriage shouldn't be about daily drama and chaos. It has its ups and downs, but what happened here goes way beyond the normal ups and downs and conflicts of marriage.
> 
> I hope that if people choose to remain in their marriages, that they do it for the right reasons, and not out of fear. That's all.


Wise you are young Padawan.


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## Bibi1031

If I recall correctly, fear was not his reason for reconciling. It was the one that counts the most, Love. 

After all, don't we move mountains and conquer kingdoms for love? :wink2:

If his love for his WW is like mine for my X, then it was given freely and without conditions. It is very similar to the unconditional love we have for our children. This type of love does not require deposits into the "love bank". It is like Mother Earth, self replenishing. :smile2:

Sadly, it doesn't come with a shut off valve either...

I am very glad LJ took the reconciliation card that was handed to him. Very few of us are even offered that card, and even fewer of us take it as well. Reconciliation is not for sissies, that's for sure!

May yours be a successful one LJ!!!!


----------



## drifting on

It is my hope that those who read this really think before responding harshly. It was my belief that if cheated on, automatic divorce. No second chances, no reconciliation, no trust and you have no marriage. Then it happened, I found myself betrayed by the one person I thought never could. The person I would have lay my life down for in a heartbeat. Many disagree with my choice, many probably have no respect for me, and many probably think I stayed out of fear. 

I will be clear on this, I was not appreciative of the choices I had. Divorce, reconcile, death, those were the three choices I faced. Yes, death was a very real option for me, it meant I never felt pain again. So when that failed, I had to choose between divorce or reconciliation. I chose what I felt would be my best choice. Today, I still feel I have chosen correctly. But no matter what I choose, some would say I should choose differently. I highly doubt everyone here on TAM would vote for divorce. Point being, not everyone will agree with what I choose, what I feel is best for me, some will say I'm doing it all wrong. 

To be blunt and honest, nobody but me knows what is best for me. It's not that I don't appreciate differing views, or don't appreciate posters, I think that is great about TAM. But my situation isn't yours, and what's best for you may not be best for me. Some won't ever understand this, and I can accept this. I didn't stay out of fear, I didn't stay because of the kids, I stayed because it is my best choice. Will I have to work hard, will I recover, will I be trading self respect and happiness? I face a challenge each day in my recovery, but it is a challenge I have accepted. 

If Lucas has chosen to reconcile I support him. If he comes back next week and says he is going to divorce, I will support him. It's his choice, it's what he feels is best for him, even though he didn't think he could ever think this way. His wife in my opinion was raped in every sense of the definition. Nobody deserves to be raped, sexually assaulted or molested. Knowing she had to go to a doctor for tearing is heartbreaking in my opinion. This isn't a consequence to cheating, it's a crime. Further insult is that this crime will go unpunished, which means he is free to do this again. The fact Lucas's wife went through this alone is horrorifying. But Lucas was right, she couldn't say anything without her entire world exploding. Exploding at a time that she is emotionally unstable due to the rape. I think this could have ended her life if her cheating was revealed while trying to heal from being raped. Just my opinion. 

I also agree that people can change, for good or bad. Some say people can't change, and when that's said, I want to ask that person why they couldn't see that their spouse would cheat. Your spouse changed and cheated, but it doesn't mean that person isn't capable of changing again to be a better person. I've changed, my wife has changed, others have changed as well. Not every person who cheats is a bad person, those who continue to cheat and never change, that's different. 

Many people thought the worst of my wife, that she doesn't deserve a second chance, and has even been called vile. That's their opinion, I respect that opinion, even if I think they are wrong. Nobody here has ever met my wife, or myself for that matter, and nobody knows either of us completely. Maybe I'm satisfactory with words and have painted a picture of something I'm not, or maybe I am exactly as I write. I can tell you I write with emotion, I write when I'm hurt, happy, depressed, sad, anger, elated, or just in pain. That's who I am, and writing is cathartic for me. If you ever knew me personally you would know I'm a man of few words, writing is how I truly express myself. 

In my opinion Lucas came here hoping he would garner support in his decision. What he once thought was the only way suddenly has shown a new light. His heart and mind have seen what we can't. He has made a choice he has deemed in his interest. Warning him of dangers we may see or think may happen is good. Perhaps he hasn't thought of that perspective, differing opinions can help. In my opinion, Lucas has been treated harshly, it seems many disagree with him. 

I admit I have treated people harshly, and if I think I was wrong I will go back and apologize. I'm human, I get caught up in my emotions like anyone else, and I post something stupid. A poster here at TAM has read a post of mine and posted it was the most stupid post they have ever read online. Well, something to that effect. Perhaps I see Lucas as needing support, navigating uncharted waters for the first time. Maybe just needing some advice as to how his first couple of steps should be taken. 

It's my hope Lucas returns to his thread, it's his place to voice his concerns or questions. A poster here has said the same for me, that TAM be my space to voice what I feel, and that has resonated with me more then they will ever know. So I say to Lucas, ignore what doesn't help you and respond to what does help you. God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

*Deidre* said:


> Wish I didn't see it this way, but I do, too. I just think that if people want to reconcile, that's their choice of course, but think there are many people in life who are too afraid of the unknown (and the unknown is often better) than staying with a person who hurts them over and over. The familiar is often easier to handle, even if it's terrible, than what may await.


QFT. Could not agree more. I see it OVER and OVER and OVER in every thread. People will tolerate and excuse heinous acts against them out of fear. Codependency and lack of self confidence has made these people impotent in their relationships.



*Deidre* said:


> And I also wonder how many betrayed spouses really work on themselves in terms of learning how to develop self respect.


This is what MUST HAPPEN. Regardless if you take them back or not. You can't fix them but you can fix yourself. Get your self worth back. Go to the gym, take pride in your appearance, develop your OWN social circle, get involve in activities OUTSIDE of your spouse. 

When your WHOLE life revolves around one person, it's no surprise the WORLD comes CRASHING down when they betray you. Happiness comes from with in, NEVER depend on another person for it. You can love someone without forgetting to LOVE YOURSELF too.


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> I don't get the mentality of just up and leaving a thread that you started just because you are not liking some of the things that are said.
> 
> I would have though Lucas was a bit tougher than that.


I thought about it. You're right, I'll be happy to discuss it in general but I'm giving her a second chance. I'm not going to spy on her. I'll know if she's screwing it up and if she does, I'm gone. There will be no more heart break or tears. I already gave all that I'm going to. I'm wiser and more cynical now. I'm finally a grown up. I don't believe in fairy tale romances, soul mates, or any of that crap. That's all fictional. People get together, fall in love, mate, share companionship. Sometimes one of them seeks out another partner(s) while they're still in a committed relationship. There could be 1000+ reasons for why they do that.

In my case it was boring marriage sex. She says that it wasn't that and that she always loves sex with me but I recognize that's a damage control mechanism by her to protect my ego. She says it was because I was the only person she was ever with and the curiosity of what another partner would be like got to be too much and then an opportunity presented itself and she went for it. She thought she was smart enough to handle the whole thing for a short period of time and not mess up her marriage. We hear a lot of drug addicts say the same thing. They thought they were smart enough they could handle drugs in moderation.

We've spent at least 100+ hours in quiet 1-on-1 talks and have dug into every little detail about me, her, us, her infidelity, life, marriage, dreams, goals, the past, the present, the future.

Once I calmed down enough to take off that cloak of "off with their heads" that I was using to protect my crushed heart, I learned so much. Life isn't perfect. There are no fairy tales. Sometimes the princess f*cks someone else. It happens. It doesn't mean she didn't love the prince. I understand that now. Life isn't perfect and it's not black and white.


----------



## jld

LucasJackson said:


> I thought about it. You're right, I'll be happy to discuss it in general but I'm giving her a second chance. I'm not going to spy on her. I'll know if she's screwing it up and if she does, I'm gone. There will be no more heart break or tears. I already gave all that I'm going to. I'm wiser and more cynical now. I'm finally a grown up. I don't believe is fairy tale romances, soul mates, or any of that crap. That's all fictional. People get together, fall in love, mate, share companionship. Sometimes one of them seeks out another partner(s) while they're still in a committed relationship. There could be 1000+ reasons for why they do that.
> 
> In my case it was boring marriage sex. She says that it wasn't that and that she always loves sex with me but I recognize that's a damage control mechanism by her to protect my ego. She says it was because I was the only person she was ever with and the curiosity of what another partner would be like got to be too much and then an opportunity presented itself and she went for it. She thought she was smart enough to handle the whole thing for a short period of time and not mess up her marriage. We hear a lot of drug addicts say the same thing. They thought they were smart enough they could handle drugs in moderation.
> 
> We've spent at least 100+ hours in quiet 1-on-1 talks and have dug into every little detail about me, her, us, her infidelity, life, marriage, dreams, goals, the past, the present, the future.
> 
> Once I calmed down enough to take off that cloak of "off with their heads" that was using to protect my crushed heart, I learned so much. Life isn't perfect. There are no fairy tales. Sometimes the princess f*cks someone else. It happens. It doesn't mean she didn't love the prince. I understand that now. Life isn't perfect and it's not black and white.


Wise of you to recognize when she is fearful of being honest with you. Sadly, many women put protecting their husband's ego before being transparent with him. They feel there is too much for them to lose, I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Lucas I'm glad you chose to stay around. Look we are all on your side, we really are. As for myself, I may not agree with your decision, but I will support you nevertheless. 

One thing I want to stress to you is to not let yourself get too caught up in this rape situation. Yes I know this was a traumatic event for your wife, but it must exist in a separate box from the affairs and the emotional trauma done to you. Never put more effort into healing her than you do yourself. 

She could very easily make this all about her, and you cannot let her do that. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Wise of you to recognize when she is fearful of being honest with you. Sadly, many women put protecting their husband's ego before being transparent with him. They feel there is too much for them to lose, I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is more than that. Wives want their husbands to see them as peerless and good in all ways. A husband's respect means more to a woman than anything else I think. That is why most women fear telling their husbands about their sexual fantasies and desires, because they are afraid husbands will look upon them with diminished respect. 

In her case, she took a gamble and went the opposite way she should have, and now she has NONE of his respect. 

However, I don't really see how a wife could be transparent about wanting to have sex with other men unless she knows from the outset of the relationship that her husband would be amenable to trying it at some time or another. 

Speaking hypothetically jld, if you wanted to hook up with other men with Dug's blessing, how would you go about that? How would that conversation go?


----------



## bandit.45

Lucas, I'm curious...

...and maybe you have answered this question before...

If your WW had come to you say, six or seven years ago, and told you that she was not feeling sexually fulfilled because she never got to experience sex with other men, and that she was thinking about maybe asking you to let her do a MFM threesome with you or have some kind of hotwife experience with another man, would you have considered it? Or would you have been appalled and shut her down?


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> Wise of you to recognize when she is fearful of being honest with you. Sadly, many women put protecting their husband's ego before being transparent with him. They feel there is too much for them to lose, I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was not fearful of cheating on him. Or bruising his ego by cheating on him multiple times.

Yep she really was putting herself out protecting his ego. Jeez.


----------



## LucasJackson

blueinbr said:


> She was not fearful of cheating on him. Or bruising his ego by cheating on him multiple times.


Actually she was terrified of getting caught. I think most cheaters are unless they're in exit affairs and even then they're probably scared of the fallout. You can read their accounts on all these sites. It's rare to find a cheater posting that wasn't scared to death of getting caught, losing their marriage, losing their status in the community. 

Since I didn't cheat it's easy for me to be morally outraged and very judgmental but the world isn't just black and white. I used to think it was but realized how depressed and sad that was making me. Through my experience with a cheating spouse who crushed my heart, I've learned to evolve on this subject.


----------



## 225985

We know what you are doing.


----------



## drifting on

Lucas

Welcome back, I know bandit.45's post resonated deep within you. He has that sort of affect on many here, because he speaks the truth, yet does care, to the point of feeling your pain too. 

In my opinion Lucas, I think your wife did love you throughout her affairs. This may sound harsh, but I don't think she was in love with you until after she was raped. Each day we decide if we love our spouses, it's a choice to love, and your wife does love you. But was she in love with you? If I am honest I was not always in love with my wife, but I do love her more then anything. I sometimes get butterflies when I kiss my wife, not as often as when we met, but I still do. Watching your spouse intently and knowing you could never be with anyone else is another way of being in love. It's desire, passion, being vulnerable, and always wanting to touch your spouse. That is what your wife lost for you, and that is what led her to believe an affair would show her different. In the end she got raped, she saw the cruel and dangerous side of adultery. 

I believe your wife to be remorseful, willing to move mountains for you, and never cheating again. Her answer of wanting to be with another person to see if it's different, I see that as protecting you. I have only been with my wife, there are no others, yet I have no desire to be with someone to see how different it is. Maybe it's my views on intimacy, maybe I'm just really old fashioned, but if I'm going to give all of myself, then I choose that to be with someone I find worthy. By that I mean someone who will give their heart and love to me as I do them. Intimacy is more then a night of fun, it's true love celebrated deeply within two people. Perhaps I'm way off base, but your wife doesn't appear to be someone to have sex just so she can be with another. I think this runs far deeper within her and she is scared to tell you. 

As for reconciling, I wish you all the best, just focus on fixing you, and when you are able work on the marriage. Then you can begin to help your wife, for if you don't fix yourself and marriage first, you won't be able to help your wife. As for the rape, it is separate from the affairs, you can support her, but it must be separate. Bandit is totally correct on that, and it can't be you helping her more then yourself, or it will be a horrorifying train wreck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *Deidre*

I was cheated on in a relationship, and while I’ve never been married, I did end up giving chance after chance to the guy in hopes he would change. There is nothing wrong with being loving and forgiving, but what I’ve learned is that love shouldn’t make us feel bad on a constant basis. People make mistakes, but when someone keeps cheating, those aren’t mistakes at that point. That’s just how I see it. Does the person want to live a single life but also have the benefits of marriage, too? That’s how I read some of these stories, of course I don’t know all the details, though. 

Not until I started developing self respect, did I start picking better guys to date. It’s easy for me to say I’d leave a spouse who cheats on me, having never been married, but it just would seem like the relationship is one sided. My bf tells me he’s in love with me, but if his actions don’t show that, is that really love? Words are just words after a while.


----------



## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> I was cheated on in a relationship, and while I’ve never been married, I did end up giving chance after chance to the guy in hopes he would change. There is nothing wrong with being loving and forgiving, but what I’ve learned is that love shouldn’t make us feel bad on a constant basis. People make mistakes, but when someone keeps cheating, those aren’t mistakes at that point. That’s just how I see it. Does the person want to live a single life but also have the benefits of marriage, too? That’s how I read some of these stories, of course I don’t know all the details, though.
> 
> Not until I started developing self respect, did I start picking better guys to date. It’s easy for me to say I’d leave a spouse who cheats on me, having never been married, but it just would seem like the relationship is one sided. My bf tells me he’s in love with me, but if his actions don’t show that, is that really love? Words are just words after a while.


Giving him another chance was gracious of you, that's good. Giving him another chance after he blew his second chance was unwise, that's bad.

Unless it's the nazi's or a serial killer you should always give people a second chance but the only people who get the luxury of chance after chance after chance are our children.


----------



## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> *Unless it's the nazi's or a serial killer you should always give people a second chance but the only people who get the luxury of chance after chance after chance are our children.*


Why does a cheater deserve a second chance?


----------



## LucasJackson

EllisRedding said:


> Why does a cheater deserve a second chance?


I should qualify that a bit more. A truly remorseful cheater, and not a serial cheater (someone who cheated, got caught, repented, was forgiven, then cheated again).


----------



## Bibi1031

LucasJackson said:


> Since I didn't cheat it's easy for me to be morally outraged and very judgmental but the world isn't just black and white.


I did not cheat on my first husband of 21 years. I almost fell into temptation though. This happened 3 years before his midlife crisis. We were each other's first. I can truly understand why your WW wanted to sow her oats so to speak. 

My sexual awakening didn't come until my 30's. 34 or 35 to be exact. I had fantasies about being with other men. The fantasies were very strong and wouldn't stop. It had nothing to do with loving my then husband or anyone else by that matter. It was ALL about me. I went through these troubling times for about 3 years. 

In that time, I went back to college to seek an affair partner. I knew why I went back to school and it was for that. I fantasied about being with a professor or maybe a student. It didn't matter who he was as long as I felt a stir of attraction. I have to be honest, the stir was extremely strong and all this was happening while I lived my married life. It was indeed a double life because I planned on cheating. I ended up finding my fantasy man after college was not fast enough for me. I even took a part time job in a grocery store where I knew when I was young that many illicit relationships flourished there. Sure enough, about a month of working there, I flirted with 3 different men. I fell for the young 29 year old of course. 

I realized I was playing with fire when he found out where I lived and would circle my neighborhood when he knew I would be waiting on the bus stop to get my children safely home. I saw him twice at the bus stop. 

The attraction was very strong and then reality sank in when my two worlds crashed. I realized how crazy this was and what I could lose. The truth was that I didn't want to lose my family. I loved my kids and truly loved my husband. That woke me up straight. I quit that job and took a cruise for 3 weeks to just chill from all the mess I had planned, created and done. It was an EA for sure. It took me a couple of months to get over this guy. I was determined to let this stupidity go and fall back in love with my husband. I did it and my marriage was safe, but not for long. 3 years later, my now X went through his crisis. He wasn't scared straight like I was. He fell in love with a 27 year old prostitute who fooled him into thinking she was a graveyard shift nurse. Unlike me, his was an exit affair and not just a midlife stir. Our marriage of 21 years didn't stand a chance. 

What I am trying to get at with this rambling LJ is that your WW's midlife crisis had nothing to do with you or your marriage...it was ALL about her. The pull is extremely strong and makes us do real destructive and crazy things. I am sorry that what scared her straight was the rape, but in the end; she figured out what world was the one she needed to save to live a happy, fulfilled life.

She loves you, she has always loved you. She just lost her way because the pull is extremely strong. Believe me, it will be very easy for her to fall right back "in love" with you because the crazy stir is gone and the cloudiness of those times and life are completely gone. 

Nothing is black and white that's for sure!

Remember that:

LOVE IS PATIENT,
LOVE IS KIND...


----------



## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> I should qualify that a bit more. A truly remorseful cheater, and not a serial cheater.


Who cares if they are remorseful or not, makes zero difference to me. Actions speak louder than words...


----------



## Bibi1031

Bibi1031 said:


> I did not cheat on my first husband of 21 years.
> 
> 
> WOW, I just realized I DID cheat on my X. I flat out had an EA with the 29 year old. I just realized this now that I reread my post. Just because it was not physical doesn't mean I didn't cheat.
> 
> I learn something new about me every time I come to this forum.


----------



## Bibi1031

EllisRedding said:


> *Who cares if they are remorseful or not, makes zero difference to me*. Actions speak louder than words...


Well, that is your POV, and you are entitled to it. So is LJ. He stands by his POV. It's legit!


----------



## EllisRedding

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, that is your POV, and you are entitled to it. So is LJ. He stands by his POV. It's legit!


I agree, wasn't saying his POV was wrong, just providing a counter POV :wink2:


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> It is more than that. Wives want their husbands to see them as peerless and good in all ways. A husband's respect means more to a woman than anything else I think. Really? I think Dug's love means more to me than anything else. His love and commitment to me is the foundation of our marriage, and our family, really. That is why most women fear telling their husbands about their sexual fantasies and desires, because they are afraid husbands will look upon them with diminished respect. That's funny. I tell Dug everything.
> 
> In her case, she took a gamble and went the opposite way she should have, and now she has NONE of his respect.  I'm not sure that is true. Lucas, what do you say about that?
> 
> However, I don't really see how a wife could be transparent about wanting to have sex with other men unless she knows from the outset of the relationship that her husband would be amenable to trying it at some time or another. She should have told him about her unhappiness. Together they could have worked on it. It needn't have gone to something outside the marriage.
> 
> Speaking hypothetically jld, if you wanted to hook up with other men with Dug's blessing, how would you go about that? How would that conversation go? No desire to do that, bandit. No desire to rob a bank, or sell drugs, or start smoking, either.


----------



## EllisRedding

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, that is your POV, and you are entitled to it. So is LJ. He stands by his POV. It's legit!


The challenge as well, as LJ pointed out, differentiating between someone being remorseful vs. someone who is regretful (most likely regretful only b/c they got caught). Just too much grey area for my taste to navigate that landmine lol.


----------



## jld

LucasJackson said:


> Since I didn't cheat it's easy for me to be morally outraged and very judgmental but the world isn't just black and white. I used to think it was but realized how depressed and sad that was making me. Through my experience with a cheating spouse who crushed my heart, I've learned to evolve on this subject.


Beautiful passage, LJ. You have definitely become a voice of maturity in CWI.

And that maturity was certainly come by the hard way.


----------



## LucasJackson

Bibi1031 said:


> Bibi1031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not cheat on my first husband of 21 years.
> 
> 
> WOW, I just realized I DID cheat on my X. I flat out had an EA with the 29 year old. I just realized this now that I reread my post. Just because it was not physical doesn't mean I didn't cheat.
> 
> I learn something new about me every time I come to this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> I was sad to hear the eventual outcome of your story but am very appreciative of you posting it. The reason I'm not on such a moral high horse anymore about this whole thing is because although I have never once cheated in any way, I have thought about it over the years. I've met women, usually co-workers that we just hit if off and were probably both thinking "boy, if we weren't married...." but we were so we left it at that. Still, we were thinking about it. I had an old flame from high school message me once on FB and say she still thought about me and I'd always be "the one that got away." She's married and has kids, so am I. I know where things like that lead. I showed the message to my wife. That's not something you want a spouse to come across accidentally.
> 
> I had my midlife crisis. I did not cheat but I did wonder if I needed to leave my marriage. If we're all honest here, we've all wondered that at one time or another. If you really love your spouse, however, you stick it out and those times pass and get better. Anyone who expects it to be rainbows and unicorns all the time will probably end up cheating and divorced. That's just not reality.
> 
> I do believe my wife loved only me throughout. I have zero evidence to the contrary and we've had some really awesome conversations. If I thought she loved anyone else that would be it for me. I'd wish her well in her future and we'd split.
> 
> I posted in another thread about a story I came across with some couple that was married like 67 years before one of them died. The husband was asked the secret of that longevity and not cheating was brought up. He then talked about how they had both cheated at different times during their marriage but they each had wised up, apologized to the other, and they worked it out. It happens.
> 
> Thanks again for your insight.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bibi1031

LucasJackson said:


> Bibi1031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The reason I'm not on such a moral high horse anymore about this whole thing is because although I have never once cheated in any way, I have thought about it over the years.
> *
> I think we all are tempted throughout our lives. Our morals and values help us navigate through those temptations. I am no different. I have been tempted several times and navigated through them as if nothing. I stupidly lumped my midlife stir as a success because I didn't physically cheat on my X. Ha! Talk about fooling myself. INTENT is what made this EA different to a temptation. At midlife, I was ripe for an affair; I even purposely got into situations that could lead me to having one. I failed miserably at midlife. I just didn't get caught to make it so damn destructive. I was lucky I guess.
> 
> *I do believe my wife loved only me throughout. I have zero evidence to the contrary and we've had some really awesome conversations.*
> 
> I have no doubt of that too. I know because I lived it. I NEVER stopped loving my then husband. In fact, he still duels in my heart love bank deposits free! That doesn't mean life doesn't go on for me til this day.
> 
> Once I found out he cheated, I rejected him physically though. I never felt passion or the stir of being intimate with him ever again. The love didn't ever leave though. No matter how hard I tried, I still can't get rid of it. The is why I can't be in the same room with him after almost 14 years! The past comes right back and the pain and sadness are unbearable.
> 
> I have fallen in love with others, but my love for him is still there. Just like the love I feel for my children. They test me, but I will never stop loving them!
> 
> I believe that the love I gave my first X is a clear example of how we were created in God's image. It is a love that doesn't need feeding to grow, it simply is given without the condition that you nourish it, do deeds to keep it alive or even be physically close to keep it going. It is the type of love our parents give us. It is the type of love our Creator gives each and everyone of us too. Sadly, I don't think he or my other husband loved me the same way. I know I don't love my 2nd X that way as my love for him did come with conditions. Maybe I just haven't found the right person to duel in my heart the way my first X duels in it now.
Click to expand...


----------



## Graywolf2

LucasJackson said:


> Since I didn't cheat it's easy for me to be morally outraged and very judgmental but the world isn't just black and white. I used to think it was but realized how depressed and sad that was making me. Through my experience with a cheating spouse who crushed my heart, I've learned to evolve on this subject.
> 
> I do believe my wife loved only me throughout.


Did your wife evolve too? I think that your new world outlook of marriage is fine but it also applies to you. Revenge affairs are bad because they’re forced and you are using the AP. But as time goes by and you find someone that that’s sincerely attractive to you then go for as long as you’re honest with them. 

By your new philosophy that should be totally fine with your wife and you can have a clean conscience. You can even remain in love with your wife during the affair. It’s all good.

Basically you lowered the bar so that your wife could pass over it. All I'm saying is that it's lowered for you too. If you say that you're better than that then you're back to being on your "very judgmental" high horse.


----------



## LucasJackson

Graywolf2 said:


> Did your wife evolve too? I think that your new world outlook of marriage is fine but it also applies to you. Revenge affairs are bad because they’re forced and you are using the AP. But as time goes by and you find someone that that’s sincerely attractive to you then go for as long as you’re honest with them.
> 
> By your new philosophy that should be totally fine with your wife and you can have a clean conscience. You can even remain in love with your wife during the affair. It’s all good.


Revenge affairs? You must have the wrong thread. Not applicable in our situation. A revenge affair would have to be initiated by me and that's not gonna happen. I have zero desire to have an affair with anyone.


----------



## becareful2

LucasJackson,

Had your wife not been raped by her third AP, would she have kept on cheating? That is the question. I actually think she stopped only because of that. Had it been good sex or decent sex, I think she would have continued. After all, she didn't stop at one, she didn't stop at two, so why stop at the third partner?


----------



## Archangel2

@LucasJackson - Correct me if I'm wrong, but (based on what I read in another thread) did you not rain hell,fire and brimstone on your wife and her OM after you discovered she was cheating? Perhaps the anger in you has burned out?


----------



## bandit.45

Jld You didn't answer that last question. 

Hypothetically, if you wanted to be transparent with Dug and tell him you wanted to experience sex with other people outside the marriage, how would you do that?


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Jld You didn't answer that last question.
> 
> Hypothetically, if you wanted to be transparent with Dug and tell him you wanted to experience sex with other people outside the marriage, how would you do that?


I have no desire to do that, bandit. 

If I asked you how you would go about maiming and murdering a hundred small children, would you even answer? 

It's a stomach-turning question. Let's keep our thoughts constructive and uplifting.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I have no desire to do that, bandit.
> 
> If I asked you how you would go about maiming and murdering a hundred small children, would you even answer?
> 
> It's a stomach-turning question. Let's keep our thoughts constructive and uplifting.


You just made my case. Because I think Lucas would have reacted in the same way you did if that that question were to have been posed to him by his WW prior to her hooking up with her OM and the two strangers. He would have rejected it outright. 

Which brings me to the conclusion that there is a huge moral and ethical disparity between Lucas and his wife. When it comes to values, mores, and self respect, his WW inhabits an entire rely different plane of existence from that of her husband. And in that sense I cannot see how their marriage can survive for the long haul.


----------



## *Deidre*

Lucas was banned?


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> You just made my case. Because I think Lucas would have reacted in the same way you did if that that question were to have been posed to him by his WW prior to her hooking up with her OM and the two strangers. He would have rejected it outright.
> 
> Which brings me to the conclusion that there is a huge moral and ethical disparity between Lucas and his wife. When it comes to values, mores, and self respect, his WW inhabits an entire rely different plane of existence from that of her husband. And in that sense I cannot see how their marriage can survive for the long haul.


I'm not following you. How would it have made your case?

If she had said something like that, the thing to do would have been to go to counseling. The counselor could have helped them address their issues.

I think their marriage will be fine. I think she went down the wrong path and got in over her head. The rape was a horrible wake up, but a wake up nonetheless.


----------



## larry.gray

*Deidre* said:


> Lucas was banned?


I just posted on the banned members thread. I haven't seen anything concerning


----------



## TaDor

bandit.45 said:


> I don't know how you have sex with her.
> 
> I would find my wife repulsive knowing all this. I wouldn't want to have sex with her ever again. Even if we did reconcile it would be a sexless relationship.


Well, we're all different to some degree, aren't we? We are not clones.

My penis works quite well with my wife. 
I was repulsed of her actions & sex with POSM when she was gone.


----------



## TaDor

Man, I recall LucasJackson being harsh on me and others about attempting R.

Good luck, I mean that. In the end, you know her in ways we don't...


----------



## Graywolf2

LucasJackson said:


> Revenge affairs? You must have the wrong thread. Not applicable in our situation. A revenge affair would have to be initiated by me and that's not gonna happen. I have zero desire to have an affair with anyone.


Did you read what I wrote? I said that they are bad. Read what you wrote. According to your new enlightened philosophy there would be nothing wrong at all with you having an affair. Not that you should. 

It’s like you’re an employer and you made a great case that the hiring standards for the company were needlessly high. Then you hire your cousin who can barely make the new lower standards. Now the new standards should apply to everyone, not just your cousin. 

But no. You bring the standards back up for you. If the lower standards are good enough then they are good enough for everyone. Either that or your argument for lower standards was crap you made up just to give your cousin a pass.


----------



## Cynthia

*Deidre* said:


> Lucas was banned?


From another thread:


EleGirl said:


> Called the OP on a thread some pretty ugly names. He's lucky he only got a 3 day time out.



He'll be back in three days.


----------



## GusPolinski

TaDor said:


> Man, I recall LucasJackson being harsh on me and others about attempting R.


LOL... I know, right?



TaDor said:


> Good luck, I mean that. In the end, you know her in ways we don't...


And we know her in ways that he _won't_.

Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised that this thread hasn't been moved over to SI by now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

bandit.45 said:


> I don't know how you have sex with her.
> 
> I would find my wife repulsive knowing all this. I wouldn't want to have sex with her ever again. Even if we did reconcile it would be a sexless relationship.


Honestly I couldn't either, but not all of us are the same. I have several sisters and half of us have been cheated on. I was the only one who lost all desire for my cheating X. My other sisters didn't have a problem with it. One of them even slept with his clothes in order to have his scent. I thought that was gross. She even wanted him more. Go figure! 

The only one in my family like me is one of my nieces. Her husband had an EA with a coworker and she never forgave him or desired him either. The poor guy is miserable and was and is very remorseful, but the damage was done. She can't stand him!


----------



## *Deidre*

Can't help but think that for many cheaters (not all but many) ...they're just upset that they got caught, not that they hurt anyone. Some of the stories on here, the cheater is caught, the betrayed spouse is leaving, and the wayward spouse falls to their knees begging for forgiveness. It's like, really? Upset that you can't have your cake and eat it all at the same time, anymore? 

There are remorseful cheaters, sure, but for many ...they are just upset that they got caught and can't keep their spouse at home holding down the homefront, kids, etc while they lead a single life.


----------



## TaDor

There is a whole spectrum of cheaters, to simply starting an EA and ending it quickly TO being the team **** who had sex with your boss, your dad, the UPS loading doc staff, your pastor, your lawyer...

My WW didn't beg for anything at first, she left. She faked-R the first 2 months as she was mixed up and coming off of booze. IE: imagine a 101~105lb woman drinking 750ml of Vodka or other spirits a day + 1 or 2 cans of the beer/cooler drinks. EVERY DAY for about 3 months. YIKES!

Getting sober (since March) has allowed her to see her actions. Till she called me up and asked "Can we try again?" in May. Sadly one of her good friends might be divorcing (NOT infidelity related), I heard some of the conversation as she told her friend to try and work things out. That she(WW) has done bad things and choices along with drinking and that she (the friend) shouldn't give up so easily.

Single life... its for the young.


----------



## TaDor

@GusPolinski : I don't recall LucasJackson's detailed story as my time is short. 3 different guys/but one was not consensual.

People move their threads to SI? A few month back, with some warning here - I did check out LS. I stayed on that site for about 5 minutes, I was disgusted. What cheaters posted was evil and sick... horrible things. I was starting to have attacks.
Never again.

I know my relationship with my WW is not set in stone (whose is anyway?) - the CC thought we were done for, during the first 4 sessions (2 were just me) as he tried to help me cope and move on. What is feeling good, is that our CC sessions are now MORE based on *US* improving our communications and anxieties rather than the affair. This Monday's meeting, I think we spent about 1~2 minutes about trust/affair as more of a gauge of where we were at.

I can only HOPE for the best, but accept the worse is always possible.


----------



## LucasJackson

TaDor said:


> Man, I recall LucasJackson being harsh on me and others about attempting R.
> 
> Good luck, I mean that. In the end, you know her in ways we don't...


I'm not arbitrarily against R, I just think the right conditions need to be present for it to have a chance. #1 A truly remorseful cheater but also a cheater that didn't exchange "I love you's" with their AP. If a cheater is in love with their AP then I think that would be really hard for the BS to really get over. They might say they're over it but I would doubt they ever could be. Sex is one thing, love is a whole different animal.


----------



## *Deidre*

Despite my concerns that your wife is not capable of change, I do wish you the best with your reconciliation, Lucas. If it does happen again, I hope you choose to not accept it. Praying that your wife sees that you giving her a second chance is a blessing.


----------



## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> Despite my concerns that your wife is not capable of change, I do wish you the best with your reconciliation, Lucas. If it does happen again, I hope you choose to not accept it. Praying that your wife sees that you giving her a second chance is a blessing.


She has already changed or reverted to who she was. MLC is gone. The compressed timelines of these boards might indicate that this all just happened. It's been over the last few years. She went years of self-imposed house arrest and was not intimate with anyone. She was following the DB method and spent all the time she could around me. She did give me space when I asked and I assured her there would be no R at least 100 times. Maybe more. It's hard to stay angry too long. If you do you end up a bitter person like Chump Lady. I feel bad for her. I can tell she really loved her cheater and never got over it. If she did she wouldn't be so angry and bitter today. I was already over it because I was moving on. We just hadn't split or D'd yet and one day recently I decided not to. I was too rigid on right vs wrong. I see that now. I also see my own fault in all this. How could my wife sleep with someone for upwards of a year and I wasn't aware of it? Obviously I wasn't a very attentive husband or I would have known. I see that now too. I know the ole "your inattentiveness was no excuse to cheat." I get that but I did play a part. She had a midlife crisis and questioned everything. Most of us do. I did. I didn't cheat but I did wonder what life would be like if I left her and was single. We all have these thoughts about our spouses or SO's. All of us. We might make it, we might not. I have confidence in us making because we've both grown up now. We used to believe in fate, fairy tale romance, soul mates. Neither of us do now. That's growth.


----------



## MattMatt

I do hope it works out for you and your wife, Lucas.


----------



## bandit.45

She owes you a Harley.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> She owes you a Harley.


He'd do better w/ a lifetime supply of condoms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> He'd do better w/ a lifetime supply of condoms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


...and a Harley.


----------



## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> She has already changed or reverted to who she was. MLC is gone. The compressed timelines of these boards might indicate that this all just happened. It's been over the last few years. She went years of self-imposed house arrest and was not intimate with anyone. She was following the DB method and spent all the time she could around me. She did give me space when I asked and I assured her there would be no R at least 100 times. Maybe more. It's hard to stay angry too long. If you do you end up a bitter person like Chump Lady. I feel bad for her. I can tell she really loved her cheater and never got over it. If she did she wouldn't be so angry and bitter today. I was already over it because I was moving on. We just hadn't split or D'd yet and one day recently I decided not to. I was too rigid on right vs wrong. I see that now. I also see my own fault in all this. How could my wife sleep with someone for upwards of a year and I wasn't aware of it? Obviously I wasn't a very attentive husband or I would have known. I see that now too. I know the ole "your inattentiveness was no excuse to cheat." I get that but I did play a part. She had a midlife crisis and questioned everything. Most of us do. I did. I didn't cheat but I did wonder what life would be like if I left her and was single. We all have these thoughts about our spouses or SO's. All of us. We might make it, we might not. I have confidence in us making because we've both grown up now. We used to believe in fate, fairy tale romance, soul mates. Neither of us do now. That's growth.


That is growth. I'm pretty hard about cheating, but your epiphany here, really shows me another side. My prayers for you and she to really be better than ever.


----------



## Wolfman1968

GusPolinski said:


> He'd do better w/ a lifetime supply of condoms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Gus, I'm quoting your post because it's the closest one to my mouse button, but my comments would apply equally to all those posters who are pessimistic about the Reconciliation of the OP with his wife.

Is your pessimism because you think R is never possible, or rarely possible?

Or, if you think it is possible, what is it about the OP's situation that you feel makes his R particularly unlikely/false?

I say this because the OP seems pretty confident in his WW's regret.


----------



## becareful2

I think the reason Lucas reconciled with his wife is because he never fully detached from her. They still lived under the same roof, and I'm assuming he still let her do his laundry, cook his meals, and had sex with him. How is anyone suppose to detach while still living like a couple? Of course, that would wear him down eventually.


----------



## drifting on

I believe this is much of what Lucas is going through now, his mind has opened, he's growing, and he's finding his words in other posts are changing. His view has changed, he's learned to see the entire picture instead of sections, and is learning that reconciling isn't so wrong if the WS is truly remorseful. 

I recall Lucas stating he could never stay with a spouse who cheated, very verbal to those who chose reconciliation. Lucas was simply stating his opinion as we all do on threads. Lucas later found himself on uneven ground, he found himself in a place that was unfamiliar. What was once the only path eventually gave him options he never knew existed. Lucas found the world is not black and white, options once unknown, present themselves to you. 

As a human being we can grow or stay the same. Infidelity is different to each of us, we all choose what is best for us. Some say a PA is an automatic divorce, some say we can work through this. Some say an EA is a deal breaker, some say we can work through this. It's been said that those who reconcile do so out of fear, don't respect themselves, or any other way that is demeaning to a BS. Many here feel that reconciliation is terrible, many support it. The opinions differ from thread to thread. I'm not saying everyone is for or against reconciliation, and I say that about divorce as well, each of us have our own opinions. With that said I'm not saying all on this thread have been demeaning, just offering different views and opinions. 

As a BS trying to reconcile a marriage, there are times I'm down, feel defeated, struggle to move forward, and sometimes want to quit. Other times I see and feel I have made the right choice, I'm happy, and I have a good day feeling strength. Emotions come and go each day, many emotions are fleeting, some not so fleeting. A PA was a deal breaker for me until infidelity struck my marriage. 

The last two years I have grown as a person, a direct result of infidelity. If infidelity had not happened, I wouldn't be who I am today. The reason I'm a better person today is terrible, I could have gone my entire life without knowing a single thing regarding infidelity. But that didn't happen, and eventually I had to either grow or stay the same. I chose to grow, I chose to be a better person. Those who commit adultery, have the same choice, grow or remain the same. The WS's who get it, choose to grow, are remorseful, and do all they can to become a better person, can. Does that mean you have to reconcile with that WS, no, but it makes it very difficult to divorce. 

It is obvious that Lucas finds himself in this position now, and doing what he once thought was his only choice finds that it isn't. He now is growing and changing, finding a new path to select. Lucas himself is unsure if his choice is correct. That doesn't mean he is wrong, instead he now knows that not all WS's are bad people, they have made bad choices. This happens with good people and bad people, and everyone is capable of change. Good people go bad and vice versa, change is capable of attaining, Lucas's wife seems to have made that change. 

As we do with all new relationships, we are cautious, reconciling requires this too. It's a new marriage, the old died, and you have to be cautious for the same reasons as dating someone new. You do know more as to what they are capable of, but those WS's who get it, will be less likely to repeat behavior that has taken so much from them. Each time my wife looks in the mirror, she has a moment of remorse, she has told me many many times how disappointed in herself she is. Then she remembers the gift she has been given, all that she still has, and that she is doing everything possible to make the remainder of her life good. Her skills as a mom are excellent, the boys love her tremendously, all three cherish the moments they have together. Even at her age she gets in the trampoline and jumps with the boys. I'm not saying she's old by any stretch but their isn't anything she won't do for the boys or me for that matter. 

I know and expect this post to get flamed, for 2X4's to be wielded, but I see change and believe humans can change. I have and my wife has, we are better in many aspects because of our changing. My hope for you Lucas, is that you find peace and happiness, that you and your wife have a successful reconciliation. God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> ...and a Harley.


Already accomplished that one. 2016 Ultra Limited. First thing I was going to do post-D was take a month off work and ride the 48 states. I entertain dreams of writing about the experience like Jack Kerouac. I have the bike and love it. Ride it every day it's not raining. My wife thinks I should still do that trip. She'd like to come with me but understands if I don't want her to.


----------



## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> I think the reason Lucas *reconciled *with his wife is because he never fully detached from her. They still lived under the same roof, and I'm assuming he still let her do his laundry, cook his meals, and had sex with him. How is anyone suppose to detach while still living like a couple? Of course, that would wear him down eventually.


That shouldn't be past tense yet. We're just at the very beginning of even talking about what reconciling means and what it will look like. If it's me having to spy on cell phone or computer use then I'm gone. That's so passive. I don't roll that way.


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> Already accomplished that one. 2016 Ultra Limited. First thing I was going to do post-D was take a month off work and ride the 48 states. I entertain dreams of writing about the experience like Jack Kerouac. I have the bike and love it. Ride it every day it's not raining. My wife thinks I should still do that trip. She'd like to come with me but understands if I don't want her to.


Do it. 

I am a strong advocate of vision quests. 

As for your WW, it would be a good litmus test for her to be alone and think about her life and where it is going.


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> That shouldn't be past tense yet. We're just at the very beginning of even talking about what reconciling means and what it will look like. If it's me having to spy on cell phone or computer use then I'm gone. That's so passive. I don't roll that way.


How's the sex? Is the physical connection still decent?


----------



## farsidejunky

LucasJackson said:


> Already accomplished that one. 2016 Ultra Limited. First thing I was going to do post-D was take a month off work and ride the 48 states. I entertain dreams of writing about the experience like Jack Kerouac. I have the bike and love it. Ride it every day it's not raining. My wife thinks I should still do that trip. She'd like to come with me but understands if I don't want her to.


I think you should, too.


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> Do it.
> 
> I am a strong advocate of vision quests.
> 
> As for your WW, it would be a good litmus test for her to be alone and think about her life and where it is going.


I was thinking it would be good to do the trip alone. It's hard for me to do the reflection I'd like to do with her around. I don't want any other influences when I'm doing that thinking. Just me and my thoughts. Since this all happened we've still been around each other. I haven't had a chance to be apart for any significant time to think about life.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wolfman1968 said:


> Gus, I'm quoting your post because it's the closest one to my mouse button, but my comments would apply equally to all those posters who are pessimistic about the Reconciliation of the OP with his wife.
> 
> Is your pessimism because you think R is never possible, or rarely possible?
> 
> Or, if you think it is possible, what is it about the OP's situation that you feel makes his R particularly unlikely/false?
> 
> I say this because the OP seems pretty confident in his WW's regret.


First off, regret ain't remorse.

Second, I believe that opportunities for any sort of real, genuine reconciliation where a PA is concerned to be so rare that it's not even worth consideration.

Third, I believe that it's nothing short of absolutely foolish to even _entertain_ the idea of reconciliation w/ a *SERIAL* wayward.

Fourth, I don't buy into the "my MLC drove me to it", the "wife to ho then back to wife", or "it was so much pressure being Mary Poppins that I had to start f*cking my co-workers and random dudes from the Internet" narratives. At all.

Fifth, if I'm being completely honest, I absolutely HATE that LJ's WW was able to gently neuter him over the course of how many ever months it's been w/ this manipulative DB bullsh*t.

Sixth, I believe it (VERY) likely that, months or years from now, whatever fog it is that LJ has wandered into will lift, and he's going to regret not pushing the divorce through to completion.

Still it's his life, his marriage, and his mistake to make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> I was thinking it would be good to do the trip alone. It's hard for me to do the reflection I'd like to do with her around. I don't want any other influences when I'm doing that thinking. Just me and my thoughts. Since this all happened we've still been around each other. I haven't had a chance to be apart for any significant time to think about life.


What side of the country do you live on?


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> What side of the country do you live on?


Cincinnati, OH. Basically in the middle of the country.


----------



## MyRevelation

GusPolinski said:


> First off, regret ain't remorse.
> 
> Second, I believe that opportunities for any sort of real, genuine reconciliation where a PA is concerned to be so rare that it's not even worth consideration.
> 
> Third, I believe that it's nothing short of absolutely foolish to even entertain reconciliation w/ a _serial_ wayward.
> 
> Fourth, I don't buy into the "my MLC drove me to it", the "wife to ho then back to wife", or "it was so much pressure being Mary Poppins that I had to start f*cking my co-workers and random dudes from the Internet" narratives. At all.
> 
> Fifth, if I'm being completely honest, I absolutely HATE that LJ's WW was able to gently neuter him over the course of how many ever months it's been w/ this manipulative DB bullsh*t.
> 
> Sixth, I believe it (VERY) likely that, months or years from now, whatever fog it is that LJ has wandered into will lift, and he's going to regret not pushing the divorce through to completion.
> 
> Still it's his life, his marriage, and his mistake to make.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gus,

That is a serious list and one that I'm hard pressed to find any holes in its logic.

I even agree with the caveat at the end. However, from personal experience, those life mistakes that I've made with full knowledge of the red flags waving that I ignored are the hardest to deal with and the one's I still kick myself in the ass over years later. I'm afraid numbers 5 & 6 are going to be a ***** for LJ to deal with at some point.


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> Cincinnati, OH. Basically in the middle of the country.


I recommend the Old Route 66 path. 

I think you can pick it up near Cincinnati. 

If you are really adventurous, follow it down through Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. You won't be disappointed. They have R66 maps everywhere on the web.


----------



## bandit.45

MyRevelation said:


> Gus,
> 
> That is a serious list and one that I'm hard pressed to find any holes in its logic.
> 
> I even agree with the caveat at the end. However, from personal experience, those life mistakes that I've made with full knowledge of the red flags waving that I ignored are the hardest to deal with and the one's I still kick myself in the ass over years later. I'm afraid numbers 5 & 6 are going to be a ***** for LJ to deal with at some point.


You were a working man trying to make a living and take care of business. You trusted her implicitly and she violated that trust. It had nothing to do with whether or not you were watching her. If she was feeling ignored or unhappy, she had a responsibility to bring her issues to you and give you the benefit of the doubt. Don't you dare let her lay her poor choices at your feet.

Your wife is a business partner as well as a life partner. She knew you were working hard for the future, and she and you could have worked together to find a balance between business and romance. 

Quit beating up yourself for something that was not your fault. Thus was her fault 100%.


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> I recommend the Old Route 66 path.
> 
> I think you can pick it up near Cincinnati.
> 
> If you are really adventurous, follow it down through Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. You won't be disappointed. They have R66 maps everywhere on the web.


That was definitely something I had been thinking about. I'd LOVE to do Route 66. I'm probably going to push the trip off until this coming winter's snow is all melted in the northern states. I think I'm definitely heading west to start. I worry that when I get there I may get too powerful an urge to stay. ;-) A lot of people here think I've reconciled. Past tense. That couldn't be further from the truth. I said I'd sit on D for a while to figure a way forward if we can find one together. If I end up walking there will be no tears on my part. I've given all those I'm going to.


----------



## GusPolinski

LucasJackson said:


> I was thinking it would be good to do the trip alone. It's hard for me to do the reflection I'd like to do with her around. I don't want any other influences when I'm doing that thinking. Just me and my thoughts. *Since this all happened we've still been around each other. I haven't had a chance to be apart for any significant time to think about life.*


Huge problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

bandit.45 said:


> I recommend the Old Route 66 path.
> 
> I think you can pick it up near Cincinnati.
> 
> If you are really adventurous, follow it down through Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. You won't be disappointed. They have R66 maps everywhere on the web.


LJ make sure you cruse the Kancamagus HWY from Lincoln to Conway NH God him/her self made it for loving life on two wheels

55


----------



## becareful2

I think @drifting on's story is the most painful act of betrayal I've ever read on here, while I feel the most conflicted about @LucasJackson's dilemma. DO's story involves years of lies, deceit, and hiding of paternity, that by the time he considered walking away, the two boys had latched on to him as their dad/father. His wife was complicit in making sure that happened, so there is a very high probability that were I in his shoes, I'd walk away. Yes, she may be truly remorseful, but I don't think I'd get over the years of emotional manipulation by her. What she did was evil.

Lucas's wife destroyed their 27 year marriage because she wanted some strange phallus in her, because she resented him over his high number. That's unfathomable to me to destroy so much of what they have invested into each other and their family. I still can't decide if I would R or D if I were him, but he knows whether his wife is truly remorseful or not. To him, an EA would mean certain D, but to most of us, it's the PA that would defile the wife in our hearts. EAs can be just hormones talking but PAs involve physical acts that induce mind movies/triggers. It may be that because he was so wild in his younger days that the PAs don't matter that much.


----------



## drifter777

GusPolinski said:


> First off, regret ain't remorse.
> 
> Second, I believe that opportunities for any sort of real, genuine reconciliation where a PA is concerned to be so rare that it's not even worth consideration.
> 
> Third, I believe that it's nothing short of absolutely foolish to even _entertain_ the idea of reconciliation w/ a *SERIAL* wayward.
> 
> Fourth, I don't buy into the "my MLC drove me to it", the "wife to ho then back to wife", or "it was so much pressure being Mary Poppins that I had to start f*cking my co-workers and random dudes from the Internet" narratives. At all.
> 
> Fifth, if I'm being completely honest, I absolutely HATE that LJ's WW was able to gently neuter him over the course of how many ever months it's been w/ this manipulative DB bullsh*t.
> 
> Sixth, I believe it (VERY) likely that, months or years from now, whatever fog it is that LJ has wandered into will lift, and he's going to regret not pushing the divorce through to completion.
> 
> Still it's his life, his marriage, and his mistake to make.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pretty much agree with you on every point. The overall takeaway for a BH should be that R is not worth the long, painful ordeal. There is a good chance it's going to end in divorce anyway so why put yourself through this agony? The best most BH's can hope for is swallowing the whole ugly thing enough to live unhappily married.

An exception to my philosophy I make is for the man who truly doesn't care about the sexual component of WW's cheating. Like he honestly sees it as "sex is just sex" and it's the emotional betrayal and all the lying that are the overwhelming components. With a remorseful WW willing to do whatever it takes to help him heal I think these men have a good chance to make R work.


----------



## drifting on

becareful2 said:


> I think @drifting on's story is the most painful act of betrayal I've ever read on here, while I feel the most conflicted about @LucasJackson's dilemma. DO's story involves years of lies, deceit, and hiding of paternity, that by the time he considered walking away, the two boys had latched on to him as their dad/father. His wife was complicit in making sure that happened, so there is a very high probability that were I in his shoes, I'd walk away. Yes, she may be truly remorseful, but I don't think I'd get over the years of emotional manipulation by her. What she did was evil.
> 
> Lucas's wife destroyed their 27 year marriage because she wanted some strange phallus in her, because she resented him over his high number. That's unfathomable to me to destroy so much of what they have invested into each other and their family. I still can't decide if I would R or D if I were him, but he knows whether his wife is truly remorseful or not. To him, an EA would mean certain D, but to most of us, it's the PA that would defile the wife in our hearts. EAs can be just hormones talking but PAs involve physical acts that induce mind movies/triggers. It may be that because he was so wild in his younger days that the PAs don't matter that much.




Becareful2

I don't know if my story is the most painful on TAM, there were others I felt the pain of the BS quite palpably. Not even sure if I would like for any of us to vote on the most painful thread. I think we all feel the pain from infidelity, and that pain has hurt us more then we would like to admit. With that said, even I believe what my wife's actions and manipulation were evil, and this was the single hardest factor to accept. If my story were ever to happen with another poster I don't know if I would support reconciliation. The pain associated with this will buckle your knees in a heartbeat, and that's a good day. 

In Lucas's situation I think his wife is truly remorseful, at least from what he has posted. Lucas can do as I did, divorce is on the table if I am unable to heal or move forward in life. Some may say I'm wrong or that in holding divorce over my wife's head, I assure you I'm not doing that. Reconciliation is a long and difficult process, much has to change, much has to be rebuilt, and there are no guarantees anyone makes it. My wife may decide to divorce before I if I can't heal, and that's her choice. I have that choice too, and Lucas needs to understand he also has this choice. 

I think this trip would be a good idea to take for Lucas, at this moment he's certainly struggling in his own mind. However I would make a few modifications to the trip. First modification would be that your wife joins you at some point on the trip. I would recommend that you go alone for three weeks, then have your wife meet you for the last week. I think it would be beneficial to your reconciliation for the both of you to be alone, and away from home. Just my opinion. 

I wish you the best of luck Lucas, self reflect on this trip, clear your mind, and focus on the new you that will emerge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> I think @drifting on's story is the most painful act of betrayal I've ever read on here, while I feel the most conflicted about @LucasJackson's dilemma. DO's story involves years of lies, deceit, and hiding of paternity, that by the time he considered walking away, the two boys had latched on to him as their dad/father. His wife was complicit in making sure that happened, so there is a very high probability that were I in his shoes, I'd walk away. Yes, she may be truly remorseful, but I don't think I'd get over the years of emotional manipulation by her. What she did was evil.
> 
> Lucas's wife destroyed their 27 year marriage because she wanted some strange phallus in her, because she resented him over his high number. That's unfathomable to me to destroy so much of what they have invested into each other and their family. I still can't decide if I would R or D if I were him, but he knows whether his wife is truly remorseful or not. To him, an EA would mean certain D, but to most of us, it's the PA that would defile the wife in our hearts. EAs can be just hormones talking but PAs involve physical acts that induce mind movies/triggers. It may be that because he was so wild in his younger days that the PAs don't matter that much.



I understand. I've committed to _*trying *_to reconcile but no promises were made that we would. There are a lot of things to straighten out and work through. Fortunately for her I put less severity on a PA than I would an EA. Give somebody else your heart and you'll never be with me again. To me that's the ultimate betrayal and there are no second chances.


----------



## LucasJackson

drifting on said:


> Becareful2
> I think this trip would be a good idea to take for Lucas, at this moment he's certainly struggling in his own mind. However I would make a few modifications to the trip. First modification would be that your wife joins you at some point on the trip. I would recommend that you go alone for three weeks, then have your wife meet you for the last week. I think it would be beneficial to your reconciliation for the both of you to be alone, and away from home. Just my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, that's a pretty good idea. Thanks.


----------



## just got it 55

LucasJackson said:


> You know, that's a pretty good idea. Thanks.


Head to the Northeast now and work your way south to west then back to Buckeye Country

55


----------



## drifter777

drifting on said:


> Becareful2
> 
> I don't know if my story is the most painful on TAM, there were others I felt the pain of the BS quite palpably. Not even sure if I would like for any of us to vote on the most painful thread. I think we all feel the pain from infidelity, and that pain has hurt us more then we would like to admit. With that said, even I believe what my wife's actions and manipulation were evil, and this was the single hardest factor to accept. If my story were ever to happen with another poster I don't know if I would support reconciliation. The pain associated with this will buckle your knees in a heartbeat, and that's a good day.


Comparing "most painful" would be difficult and probably not very productive for anyone. That said, there is absolutely no way I could have lived with what you are living with. Had it happened this way to me there would have been a murder/suicide leading the 5 o'clock news that night.


----------



## MattMatt

becareful2 said:


> I think @drifting on's story is the most painful act of betrayal I've ever read on here, while I feel the most conflicted about @LucasJackson's dilemma. DO's story involves years of lies, deceit, and hiding of paternity, that by the time he considered walking away, *the two boys had latched on to him as their dad/father.* His wife was complicit in making sure that happened, so there is a very high probability that were I in his shoes, I'd walk away. Yes, she may be truly remorseful, but I don't think I'd get over the years of emotional manipulation by her. What she did was evil.
> 
> Lucas's wife destroyed their 27 year marriage because she wanted some strange phallus in her, because she resented him over his high number. That's unfathomable to me to destroy so much of what they have invested into each other and their family. I still can't decide if I would R or D if I were him, but he knows whether his wife is truly remorseful or not. To him, an EA would mean certain D, but to most of us, it's the PA that would defile the wife in our hearts. EAs can be just hormones talking but PAs involve physical acts that induce mind movies/triggers. It may be that because he was so wild in his younger days that the PAs don't matter that much.


You make that sound like the children were involved in a wicked plot to "latch on" to DO.

"Yeah, damn them plotting, scheming, evil two month old kids!"


----------



## *Deidre*

GusPolinski said:


> First off, regret ain't remorse.
> 
> Second, I believe that opportunities for any sort of real, genuine reconciliation where a PA is concerned to be so rare that it's not even worth consideration.
> 
> Third, I believe that it's nothing short of absolutely foolish to even _entertain_ the idea of reconciliation w/ a *SERIAL* wayward.
> 
> Fourth, I don't buy into the "my MLC drove me to it", the "wife to ho then back to wife", or "it was so much pressure being Mary Poppins that I had to start f*cking my co-workers and random dudes from the Internet" narratives. At all.
> 
> Fifth, if I'm being completely honest, I absolutely HATE that LJ's WW was able to gently neuter him over the course of how many ever months it's been w/ this manipulative DB bullsh*t.
> 
> Sixth, I believe it (VERY) likely that, months or years from now, whatever fog it is that LJ has wandered into will lift, and he's going to regret not pushing the divorce through to completion.
> 
> Still it's his life, his marriage, and his mistake to make.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I too have concerns with his wife's genuine remorse, but at the same time, maybe the threat of divorce was enough to make her change.

My honest concern for most people who reconcile, is that their cheating spouse missed the marriage, lifestyle, financial support, etc...and not the person. The betrayed spouse wasn't a thought when they were banging random strangers so why would that person suddenly spark remorse? But, that is how I tend to view serial cheating. 

Either way, hopefully Lucas, you're making the right decision, and things work out.


----------



## becareful2

MattMatt said:


> You make that sound like the children were involved in a wicked plot to "latch on" to DO.
> 
> "Yeah, damn them plotting, scheming, evil two month old kids!"


The only person I blamed in DO's situation is his wife. How you can make the leap in logic that I somehow think the 2 year old twins were involved is bizarre to me. Holy hell...


----------



## drifting on

becareful2 said:


> The only person I blamed in DO's situation is his wife. How you can make the leap in logic that I somehow think the 2 year old twins were involved is bizarre to me. Holy hell...




I think Matt was being facetious with the latched on comment, at least that was my perception. I didn't see it that Matt was saying the kids were in on the deception. Truthfully I think I understood both of you, and wasn't offended or bothered by your opinions. Both of you have some pretty good opinions in my opinion. Honestly I went through some brutal times in the last few years, and since becareful2 mentioned "latch on" I've been thinking hard. At the moment I wonder if I latched on to them more then they latched on to me. They have become my life, they have every ounce of my love, and raising them has been so much fun to this point. Thank you becareful2 for your post, you have given me much to digest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> That was definitely something I had been thinking about. I'd LOVE to do Route 66. I'm probably going to push the trip off until this coming winter's snow is all melted in the northern states. I think I'm definitely heading west to start. I worry that when I get there I may get too powerful an urge to stay. ;-) A lot of people here think I've reconciled. Past tense. That couldn't be further from the truth. I said I'd sit on D for a while to figure a way forward if we can find one together. If I end up walking there will be no tears on my part. I've given all those I'm going to.


Stay out of Arizona then, it will seduce you like a Belly dancer. You won't want to go back.


----------



## Yosemite

Lucas if I were you I wouldn't leave my wife alone all that time, given the history.


----------



## LucasJackson

Yosemite said:


> Lucas if I were you I wouldn't leave my wife alone all that time, given the history.


If I have to keep an eye on her then the whole deal is off.


----------



## drifting on

LucasJackson said:


> If I have to keep an eye on her then the whole deal is off.




I understand you completely, but if you are reconciling, then trust but verify is where you are. If you are unwilling to check or verify what she says your efforts to reconcile will fail. You need to begin trusting her, sounds crazy, right? But it's what you have to do, however, you don't just accept her words, you verify. This is very important, she needs to see you don't trust, you will verify, and that you are monitoring. She needs to feel your untrust, she needs to ACCEPT your distrust, so you can both grow as a couple. This is exactly why reconciliation is so difficult, you have to accept and do some things you won't like. You can't just take her word for anything, that horse moved to greener pastures long ago. 

As for her meeting you, so you can have time together, grow together, be vulnerable together, without the stresses of everyday life outside the front door. A vacation is a time to drop your everyday armor, relax, and be yourself without the pressures of home. It's also a chance to rediscover yourselves as a couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yosemite

LucasJackson said:


> If I have to keep an eye on her then the whole deal is off.


Of course you have to keep an eye on her, don't be naive.

You'll need to keep an eye on her for as long as you're both together, don't fool yourself into believing otherwise for a single moment.

The trust has been shattered by her deception, she's made it clear what she's capable of, and if you are willing to accept her the way she is you also need to accept that there can never, ever be 100% trust on your part. 

To think anything else is to be a fool.


----------



## LucasJackson

Yosemite said:


> Of course you have to keep an eye on her, don't be naive.
> 
> You'll need to keep an eye on her for as long as you're both together, don't fool yourself into believing otherwise for a single moment.
> 
> The trust has been shattered by her deception, she's made it clear what she's capable of, and if you are willing to accept her the way she is you also need to accept that there can never, ever be 100% trust on your part.
> 
> To think anything else is to be a fool.


I'm giving her a second chance. I'm not going to spy on her. If she does anything that violates a boundary I'll know. Any violation of any boundary and I'm gone. I may have known before but I chose not to do anything about it. My radar was always up but we had grown into a comfortable and complacent point of our relationship. What we needed from each other we were getting. When she'd be away for whatever lie she told at the moment, I enjoyed the time alone so I never pressed it. I "believed" her whether I did or not.

If my radar goes off again, I'm done. I'll know. I don't need to actively monitor anything. I know her better than anyone else. I'll know.


----------



## bandit.45

Yosemite said:


> Lucas if I were you I wouldn't leave my wife alone all that time, given the history.


She was fvcking around on him while he was staying home too. That didn't dissuade her one bit. 

He can't control her. He couldn't then and cannot now if he goes on his trip. She either controls herself or she doesn't. He cannot live his life shackled to a prisoner.


----------



## bandit.45

Yosemite said:


> Of course you have to keep an eye on her, don't be naive.
> 
> You'll need to keep an eye on her for as long as you're both together, don't fool yourself into believing otherwise for a single moment.
> 
> The trust has been shattered by her deception, she's made it clear what she's capable of, and if you are willing to accept her the way she is you also need to accept that there can never, ever be 100% trust on your part.
> 
> To think anything else is to be a fool.


She either works to earn his trust or she falls back into her old patterns, and he has already said that if she does this he will leave her for good. 

Look, I too think he should have divorced her, but this is the course he has chosen, and I think we need to support him. 

He's not a fool. He s a gracious man who has decided to give his WW one more shot at redemption.


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## Yosemite

bandit.45 said:


> He's not a fool. He s a gracious man who has decided to give his WW one more shot at redemption.


I'm thinking that men or women who give their cheating partners a second or tenth chance don't do it because they're "gracious". But maybe that's just me.


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## LucasJackson

Spent the whole labor day weekend together. Went for a long walk on Saturday, then a long ride on the Harley. Went for a bicycle ride together on Sunday. Spent all day labor day together and grilled out. There were some good moments, the Harley ride was awesome, but I have to say all in all, I just wasn't feelin' it. I'm hoping I can rekindle love/passion for my FWW but it wasn't there this weekend. Not even a spark. We did have sex, and it was a nice physical release, but I didn't feel intimacy like I used to. I haven't felt that intimacy since I found out about the A. The advice I got was to detach, and I did. That's making re-attaching a challenge. I want to re-attach, and I know it takes time, but I'm not feelin' it right now. I know I need to be honest about that in MC this week but if FWW talks first and talks about how wonderful our labor day weekend together was (as she keeps telling me) then I know I'll be hesitant about raining on her parade.


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## CantBelieveThis

If detaching didn't happen overnight, neither will re-attachment....give it some time I suggest, but you really have to try with everything you got, and wanting it too, otherwise you are just doing it as a trial attempt , think about when u two first met and try to rekindle those feelings again 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## 225985

LucasJackson said:


> I know I need to be honest about that in MC this week but if FWW talks first and talks about how wonderful our labor day weekend together was (as she keeps telling me) then I know I'll be hesitant about raining on her parade.


Of course she will say it was wonderful. She was the cheater. You need to be honest. 

She was expecting a bad weekend and got a good one. So she is happy.

You were expecting great and got good. So you are unhappy. (Or maybe you were expecting good and you got poor, so you are unhappy - same thing)


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## LucasJackson

blueinbr said:


> Of course she will say it was wonderful. She was the cheater. You need to be honest.
> 
> She was expecting a bad weekend and got a good one. So she is happy.
> 
> You were expecting great and got good. So you are unhappy. (Or maybe you were expected good and you got poor, so you are unhappy - same thing)


Actually your response made me ponder my expectations for this weekend. I just realized I wasn't expecting great. I don't know exactly what I expected to feel from this weekend but I don't think it was great. Maybe I got what I expected. I'll have to noodle on that.


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## EllisRedding

So what happens if you don't get that spark back, the damage is irreversible?


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## LucasJackson

EllisRedding said:


> So what happens if you don't get that spark back, the damage is irreversible?


I'd tell her that it wasn't working and proceed with divorce. I've made no promises of the outcome. I did promise to try. I'm now reflecting on whether or not I really tried this weekend. I thought I did. She loved this weekend. We ended it by cuddling on the couch last night. She was so lovey dovey. I was just biding my time until she fell asleep so I could move to another chair and get my computer to read the news, facebook, TAM.


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## MyRevelation

LucasJackson said:


> I know I need to be honest about that in MC this week but if FWW talks first and talks about how wonderful our labor day weekend together was (as she keeps telling me) then I know I'll be hesitant about raining on her parade.


So "reality" is about to rain on her parade ... well, boo ****ing hoo.

How about the ****storm of "reality" she rained down on you without a thought to how you would like it?

LJ, you are tying yourself in knots trying to shelter her from the consequences of her OWN actions. What makes her the special snowflake prize that you need to win back ... don't you have that part ass backwards? Take a huge step back, and let her do the heavy lifting for a change, and see if she's got what it takes to win the LucasJackson prize back.


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## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> I'd tell her that it wasn't working and proceed with divorce. I've made no promises of the outcome. I did promise to try. * I'm now reflecting on whether or not I really tried this weekend.* I thought I did. She loved this weekend. We ended it by cuddling on the couch last night. She was so lovey dovey. I was just biding my time until she fell asleep so I could move to another chair and get my computer to read the news, facebook, TAM.


So per the bolded now that you are reflecting back, what could you have done to try harder? I would just be concerned, if you need to really try harder just to find the feelings you originally had for your W, that is a red flag.

Also, do you have some sort of timeframe in mind, where you say if by some set date things are just not there for me it is time to move on?


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## GusPolinski

LucasJackson said:


> If I have to keep an eye on her then the whole deal is off.


You're already there.

If not for a fellow BS, you'd have NEVER found out what was up.

Hell, if you actually believe the web that she's spun for you thus far, _*SHE WAS RAPED* and was able to pass off the resultant emotional fallout as nothing more than a bad flu._

So, absent another BS w/ solid enough moral footing to clue you into the fact that she's cheating again, how will you ever know...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

CantBelieveThis said:


> If detaching didn't happen overnight, neither will re-attachment....give it some time I suggest, but you really have to try with everything you got, and wanting it too, otherwise you are just doing it as a trial attempt , think about when u two first met and try to rekindle those feelings again
> 
> Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk




This Lucas, this is it, it takes time. Look I value intimacy very highly, spoken about it here many times. I'd pull up an old post to show you but it's too time consuming on a phone. Have you detached, or is your brain conflicted by your heart. It's hard to accept the actions your wife took when divorce was your answer to infidelity. You thought in black and white for how many years? Now you are realizing different. Your thoughts are conflicted, your emotions are conflicted. I advise waiting at least six months from d-day before you make such an important decision. I don't recall how long it's been for you. 

In regards to how you feel, honesty is the best way, had she been honest you wouldn't be in this position. You have to be vulnerable and express how you feel, regardless of how she may feel. That's her consequence to deal with, and if she handles this correctly she will be vulnerable in return that allows trust. I think your discussion should take place at MC, so your therapist can show you how to navigate through what will be a difficult discussion. One of the more difficult aspects of reconciliation is dropping your armor, opening up and not protecting your wife from your true feelings and emotions that will hurt her. 

I didn't feel the intimacy like I had before either, this will take some time, and I'm guessing but I think longer then six months. It was well over a year for me before it felt truly special again. You just need to keep going forward, work hard, be vulnerable, and communicate well. Once you begin to trust her more the feeling will come back slowly. Best of luck Lucas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> I'd tell her that it wasn't working and proceed with divorce. I've made no promises of the outcome. I did promise to try. I'm now reflecting on whether or not I really tried this weekend. I thought I did. She loved this weekend. We ended it by cuddling on the couch last night. She was so lovey dovey. I was just biding my time until she fell asleep so I could move to another chair and get my computer to read the news, facebook, TAM.


I imagine this type of thing takes time.

TAM is super fun though, that's true. 

Hope your week goes well with you and your wife, Lucas.


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## bandit.45

Yosemite said:


> I'm thinking that men or women who give their cheating partners a second or tenth chance don't do it because they're "gracious". But maybe that's just me.


Every person has his/her own reason for reconciling. Some cannot walk away from the investment.


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## 225985

bandit.45 said:


> Some cannot walk away from the investment.


So they end up going bankrupt by putting more good money into a bad investment.


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> Spent the whole labor day weekend together. Went for a long walk on Saturday, then a long ride on the Harley. Went for a bicycle ride together on Sunday. Spent all day labor day together and grilled out. There were some good moments, the Harley ride was awesome, but I have to say all in all, I just wasn't feelin' it. I'm hoping I can rekindle love/passion for my FWW but it wasn't there this weekend. Not even a spark. We did have sex, and it was a nice physical release, but I didn't feel intimacy like I used to. I haven't felt that intimacy since I found out about the A. The advice I got was to detach, and I did. That's making re-attaching a challenge. I want to re-attach, and I know it takes time, but I'm not feelin' it right now. I know I need to be honest about that in MC this week but if FWW talks first and talks about how wonderful our labor day weekend together was (as she keeps telling me) then I know I'll be hesitant about raining on her parade.


Well you went 180 hard on her and the 180 did what it was designed to do. It is going to take time to stoke that fire for her again. This past weekend was a good start. 

The term "fake it till you make it" was invented for just this situation. 

This is what I recommend you do. Set aside one hour or whatever amount of time one evening every week to discuss the affair and the state of the reconciliation. Have a weekly meeting with her where you bring all your gripes and complaints to one another, all your questions, triggers, concerns, etc. Only talk about the affair and the R at that time. 

The rest of the week, such as times when the two of you are dating or and going out and doing stuff, DO NOT DISCUSS THE AFFAIR OR RECONCILIATION. All the other times should just be you and your WW working, playing and doing the mundane chores together and becoming a partnership again. Just take the time to get to know each other socially again.


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> I'd tell her that it wasn't working and proceed with divorce. I've made no promises of the outcome. I did promise to try. *I'm now reflecting on whether or not I really tried this weekend.* I thought I did. She loved this weekend. We ended it by cuddling on the couch last night. She was so lovey dovey. I was just biding my time until she fell asleep so I could move to another chair and get my computer to read the news, facebook, TAM.


She seemed to think you tried. Why else would she have enjoyed it? 

Lucas...quit "trying". Just be yourself and be there with her in the moment. That is all you need to do. This isn't a stage play you are in. 

She had a great time because she was with her man...the man who offered her grace and is allowing her back into his world. All she wants from you is your time.


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## CantBelieveThis

blueinbr said:


> So they end up going bankrupt by putting more good money into a bad investment.


The investment can turn around just like the market does, just saying it can go both ways....am not pro R or D btw....just like to look at all perspectives w due diligence that all


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## farsidejunky

Bandit is spot on.

The biggest part of what he said that you need to focus on is having fun with your wife. Find ways to laugh together, and the bond will likely be restored.


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## drifter777

I totally get your stance that if you have to spy on her to keep her on the straight and narrow then none of this R stuff is worthwhile. She knows that there will be no third chance so it's on her to choose. I felt this same way back then and still do today. That doesn't for one second mean that I have ever felt secure about her fidelity all these years - just that it was up to her knowing I had zero tolerance for her screwing around. 

As far as re-attaching to her - that's going to be tough and it might never happen. She took a special, vital part of your relationship; something you both promised to share only with each other - and she freely gave it to other men. That special part will never be special again - she killed it. 

I think many men never feel that special sexual bond ever gain with their WW. Some guys can get past this, some men can't.


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## LosingHim

One thing I can advise, do not expect too much too soon. We are 7 months into reconciliation. And it hasn’t been the greatest, at all. Many, many days of really good highs and really bad lows.

My husband informed me about a month before telling me he wanted to stay together that his love had never stopped, it was just broken but he thought someday it could be fixed. So going into R I knew that his love was broken. It was hard to step back and realize that I was getting back into a relationship with someone who was not 100% sure if they still loved me. I understood the reason behind it, but it only helped with accepting that a little bit. I feel like that is where you are at. You love her, but it’s broken. And that’s ok to feel like that.

My husband and I never stopped sleeping together when we were separated. We still had frequent, marathon sex, but for him – the passion was gone. It was like having sex with a stranger every night. No kissing, no affection, as soon as we were done it was back out to the couch he went. 

Once we decided to stay together, the sex didn’t change much, other than that he would kiss me afterwards. 

It took him roughly 4 months to say “I love you”. 

As the weeks and months went on, I could feel him relaxing around me a bit. What seemed like forced good times were becoming real good times. 

Sex started to improve. More kissing during, more kissing after. More vocal. But not a lot of romance prior. 

As time went on he started to hold my hand again. Kiss me on the forehead if I was sleeping (I wake up easily so I could feel the kisses, but would act like I was still asleep). Ask me if I wanted to do things with him. 

7 months in, it finally feels mostly comfortable. His smiles are genuine when he smiles, he will kiss me and hold on. Tease me, laugh with me, it doesn’t feel forced. Wears his wedding ring again, put back on facebook that he’s married to me, if anything happens when he’s away from me he’ll send me a text or call me to talk about it. His uncle passed away this weekend and he called me as soon as he heard. A couple of months ago he would have just told me when he got home or a few days later “Uncle Jim died Saturday”. He coaches high school football. This past Friday he was texting me at half time about how embarrassed they were because they were getting beat so badly and not playing well. When he went to the JV game Saturday he was texting me the score at the end of each quarter. Last season I was at every game and he knew it and he wouldn’t text me anything about the game or the scores, etc. 

And the sex is great. 7 times from late Friday night until yesterday evening. And each time was rip your clothes off hot, full of passion, talking, kissing, etc. Last night he told me I finally wore him out, I think his exact words were “you broke it”. LOL. 

This is not to say that everything is perfect and that either of us are completely over what the other did. No way, no how. And there’s a LONG road to go. Super long, like can’t see the end of the tunnel long. And I am honestly not even sure that it’s going to work out. There’s a ton of hurt to work through, on both sides, and I think I’m working harder than he is. (he broke NC with his AP last week, which led to a HUGE blow up Friday – I’m still simultaneously reeling while trying to just focus on each MOMENT, rather than everything that’s happened). 

But I can tell you, that for both of us, even broken love comes back. You just can’t rush it.


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## bandit.45

LosingHim said:


> And the sex is great. 7 times from late Friday night until yesterday evening. And each time was rip your clothes off hot, full of passion, talking, kissing, etc. Last night he told me I finally wore him out, I think his exact words were “you broke it”. LOL.


:woohoo:


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## drifting on

LosingHim said:


> One thing I can advise, do not expect too much too soon. We are 7 months into reconciliation. And it hasn’t been the greatest, at all. Many, many days of really good highs and really bad lows.
> 
> My husband informed me about a month before telling me he wanted to stay together that his love had never stopped, it was just broken but he thought someday it could be fixed. So going into R I knew that his love was broken. It was hard to step back and realize that I was getting back into a relationship with someone who was not 100% sure if they still loved me. I understood the reason behind it, but it only helped with accepting that a little bit. I feel like that is where you are at. You love her, but it’s broken. And that’s ok to feel like that.
> 
> My husband and I never stopped sleeping together when we were separated. We still had frequent, marathon sex, but for him – the passion was gone. It was like having sex with a stranger every night. No kissing, no affection, as soon as we were done it was back out to the couch he went.
> 
> Once we decided to stay together, the sex didn’t change much, other than that he would kiss me afterwards.
> 
> It took him roughly 4 months to say “I love you”.
> 
> As the weeks and months went on, I could feel him relaxing around me a bit. What seemed like forced good times were becoming real good times.
> 
> Sex started to improve. More kissing during, more kissing after. More vocal. But not a lot of romance prior.
> 
> As time went on he started to hold my hand again. Kiss me on the forehead if I was sleeping (I wake up easily so I could feel the kisses, but would act like I was still asleep). Ask me if I wanted to do things with him.
> 
> 7 months in, it finally feels mostly comfortable. His smiles are genuine when he smiles, he will kiss me and hold on. Tease me, laugh with me, it doesn’t feel forced. Wears his wedding ring again, put back on facebook that he’s married to me, if anything happens when he’s away from me he’ll send me a text or call me to talk about it. His uncle passed away this weekend and he called me as soon as he heard. A couple of months ago he would have just told me when he got home or a few days later “Uncle Jim died Saturday”. He coaches high school football. This past Friday he was texting me at half time about how embarrassed they were because they were getting beat so badly and not playing well. When he went to the JV game Saturday he was texting me the score at the end of each quarter. Last season I was at every game and he knew it and he wouldn’t text me anything about the game or the scores, etc.
> 
> And the sex is great. 7 times from late Friday night until yesterday evening. And each time was rip your clothes off hot, full of passion, talking, kissing, etc. Last night he told me I finally wore him out, I think his exact words were “you broke it”. LOL.
> 
> This is not to say that everything is perfect and that either of us are completely over what the other did. No way, no how. And there’s a LONG road to go. Super long, like can’t see the end of the tunnel long. And I am honestly not even sure that it’s going to work out. There’s a ton of hurt to work through, on both sides, and I think I’m working harder than he is. (he broke NC with his AP last week, which led to a HUGE blow up Friday – I’m still simultaneously reeling while trying to just focus on each MOMENT, rather than everything that’s happened).
> 
> But I can tell you, that for both of us, even broken love comes back. You just can’t rush it.





Reading this has brought back many memories of my wife and I. I couldn't say I love you, sex in the beginning was going through the motions. I couldn't be vulnerable, I couldn't look into my wife's eyes while intimate, kisses were basically nonexistent. I think what you are feeling Lucas is very normal, feeling violated is also normal, I remember that feeling was very strong. So don't read too much into this at this point of time, it's still very early in this process for you. 
@bandit.45, you are spot on, time is needed to reverse the 180. Detaching will be as difficult as reattaching.
@LosingHim, don't try to see the light at the end of the tunnel, reconciliation is a process and it has to follow the itinerary. Keep taking it one day at a time, you're doing just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingWife

LucasJackson said:


> I don't even ask for them all. I don't need her to report here whereabouts to me 24/7. If I felt I did need that then I'd bolt right away. That's no way to live.


I have not read all your threads and I wish you the very best of luck.

I would urge you to look at this quoted part differently though. She is your wife and you are her man -- if she needs you, you will be there. My husband has "find my phone" or some app on my phone. Not because he's "spying" or "suspicious" of me, but because he is my husband and we are connected. *I find it comforting to know that he can see where I am anytime.* What if something went wrong? He could get to me or send police or whatever.

OK, it's a little annoying when I part my car and get a text from him that says "welcome to Costco..." but most of all, it's comforting and reassuring. Of course, I have nothing to hide.

My point is that you don't have to be suspicious of your wife to want to be able to know where she is at any moment, and vice versa. You're wife married a Marine! Surely she wants to know you can come to her aid at any time if needed.


----------



## Yosemite

WorkingWife said:


> OK, it's a little annoying when I part my car and get a text from him that says "welcome to Costco..."


How old is he? Just because he "can" track you doesn't mean he should. 

If I was you I'd drive to a nearby hotel and sit there for an hour.


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## WorkingWife

Yosemite said:


> How old is he? Just because he "can" track you doesn't mean he should.
> 
> If I was you I'd drive to a nearby hotel and sit there for an hour.


Under what circumstances do you think a spouse shouldn't know or want to know where their partner is?

And under what circumstances do you think a spouse should not want their partner to be able to know where they are?

I suppose it makes planning a surprise gift more difficult if your spouse sees where you are and has access to email/phone records, but in my case, he is not at all jealous or suspicious. Now if I tried to hide my whereabouts or emails I supposed he might *become* suspicious. 

But we have the technology so he can glance at it and see where each other is at any given time. Why not use it? 

The "welcome to Costco" was a joke because he knew I was running out to get stuff and Costco is one of his favorite places on earth.


----------



## LosingHim

WorkingWife said:


> Under what circumstances do you think a spouse shouldn't know or want to know where their partner is?
> 
> And under what circumstances do you think a spouse should not want their partner to be able to know where they are?
> 
> I suppose it makes planning a surprise gift more difficult if your spouse sees where you are and has access to email/phone records.


Find my iPhone is on my phone. And the only issue I ever had with it was not being able to pull off a surprise. 

One time, before I cheated, I apparently passed my husband on a certain road here in town. It was around Valentines Day and we had seen something at Barnes and Noble that he really liked, so I’d driven out to Barnes and Noble at lunch time to buy it. He passed me on one of the roads heading that way. I didn’t see him, but apparently he saw me. He text me and said “whatcha doin?” Being a big dummy, I text him that I was at work. Obviously, I should have just said that I was running an errand, but where this Barnes and Noble is, there was literally NOTHING else out that way and if I would have said I was on Fourth Street, he would have been able to put two and two together and I really wanted to surprise him. He text me back “why are you lying?” And I instantly felt terrible. He said “I just passed you on Fourth Street”. I had to say that I was trying to get a surprise for Valentines Day, which gave it away and when he opened it on Valentines Day, he already knew what it was before he opened it. Very anticlimactic. That’s the only thing I don’t like about Find my iPhone.


----------



## Yosemite

WorkingWife said:


> Under what circumstances do you think a spouse shouldn't know or want to know where their partner is?


When they don't show up for an expected appointment or they are not following they're typical schedule. Period.

To track them for no good reason is invasive and overstepping boundaries.



WorkingWife said:


> But we have the technology so he can glance at it and see where each other is at any given time. Why not use it?


We have the technology to spy on our neighbors using drones. We can monitor our spouses in our home using security cameras.

Why not use it?

Because it's a privacy invasion that's why.


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## WorkingWife

Yosemite said:


> Why not use it?
> 
> Because it's a privacy invasion that's why.


Are you aware that you're posting in a *marriage *forum? How is your *spouse *knowing where you are an invasion of privacy? We're not talking about tracking strangers or co-workers. We're talking about knowing where your *spouse* is. How is simple convenience and concern for your spouse's safety and well being not a good reason? Do you also think parents should not track where their kid's phones are?


----------



## Yosemite

WorkingWife said:


> Are you aware that you're posting in a *marriage *forum? How is your *spouse *knowing where you are an invasion of privacy? We're not talking about tracking strangers or co-workers. We're talking about knowing where your *spouse* is. How is simple convenience and concern for your spouse's safety and well being not a good reason? Do you also think parents should not track where their kid's phones are?


I'm thinking that a spouse tracking the whereabouts of the other spouse on a constant, daily basis is not the same as a parent tracking their child's phone. But maybe that's just me. Then again I'm not in a relationship where one of the two spouses is a parent to the other, your situation is apparently different than mine and constant vigilence is the order of the day.


----------



## WorkingWife

Yosemite said:


> I'm thinking that a spouse tracking the whereabouts of the other spouse on a constant, daily basis is not the same as a parent tracking their child's phone. But maybe that's just me. Then again I'm not in a relationship where one of the two spouses is a parent to the other, your situation is apparently different than mine and constant vigilence is the order of the day.


Hmmm... I don't know any couples where one spouse tracks the other on a constant, daily basis, so I don't know about that. It sounds a bit obsessive.

I don't have kids but I remember when I was visiting my cousin she looked at her phone and said "Oh good, Susie's on her way home from the store and Bob is already heading home too. (referencing her teenage daughter and husband.) It didn't seem like she was her husband's parent or constantly vigilant at all.


----------



## Yosemite

WorkingWife said:


> Hmmm... I don't know any couples where one spouse tracks the other on a constant, daily basis, so I don't know about that. It sounds a bit obsessive.
> 
> I don't have kids but I remember when I was visiting my cousin she looked at her phone and said "Oh good, Susie's on her way home from the store and Bob is already heading home too. (referencing her teenage daughter and husband.) It didn't seem like she was her husband's parent or constantly vigilant at all.


He knows you're going into Costco for crying out loud. He has no good reason to be checking where you are and what you're doing if you're doing your normal schedule. It's controlling, it's obsessive, it's invasive and it sure aint healthy.


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## LucasJackson

I don't like MC. Went last night. I feel like it's them against me. I have to validate her feelings, which I do, but when my feelings are that I want to discuss the affair more in depth that is met with sh*t like "that's not constructive". Where the F is the validation for my feelings? I feel like I'm being scammed. I know I know....it takes time. Still, I feel what I feel and somebody should f'ing validate it.


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## farsidejunky

Look at your counselor and say:

"I am not okay with the insistence on validating my wayward wife's feelings while at the same time dismissing mine."

The only thing I can think of that is happening is your counselor is either terrible, or he / she is trying to coach you through something that he /she can't simply point out to you in the presence of your wife. If it is the latter, then you need to have a one-on-one with him / her.


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## LucasJackson

farsidejunky said:


> Look at your counselor and say:
> 
> "I am not okay with the insistence on validating my wayward wife's feelings while at the same time dismissing mine."
> 
> The only thing I can think of that is happening is your counselor is either terrible, or he / she is trying to coach you through something that he /she can't simply point out to you in the presence of your wife. If it is the latter, then you need to have a one-on-one with him / her.


We're at a sticking point over "love". I firmly believe women don't have regular sex with a man they don't have strong feelings for. She says that AP meant nothing to her. I call bullsh*t and we go round and round. I know how women are wired. They don't carry on with a dude for a year without putting their heart in it. Then again, she "cheated" on him too with the other two douche bags so I don't know what to believe.

I'm staying committed to trying because I promised I would but I have to say this honestly, I was happier when I was detaching and planning my life post-D. I am not happy right now. Things I had "gotten over" and was putting behind me are now boiling back up. It's like there was a huge scar forming over my heart but at least it was healing and now I'm picking at that scar.


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> We're at a sticking point over "love". I firmly believe women don't have regular sex with a man they don't have strong feelings for. She says that AP meant nothing to her. I call bullsh*t and we go round and round. I know how women are wired. They don't carry on with a dude for a year without putting their heart in it. Then again, she "cheated" on him too with the other two douche bags so I don't know what to believe.
> 
> I'm staying committed to trying because I promised I would but I have to say this honestly, I was happier when I was detaching and planning my life post-D. I am not happy right now. Things I had "gotten over" and was putting behind me are now boiling back up. It's like there was a huge scar forming over my heart but at least it was healing and now I'm picking at that scar.


You aren't handcuffed to the counselor's couch. When you are being ganged up on get up, look the counselor in the eye, and say "Your fired." And walk out. Go sit in the car until your WW comes out and then never go back. 

I was lucky in finding a very good marriage counselor 20 years ago when my ex cheated the first time. She held both our feet to the fire and didn't play favorites. If she smelled bullsh!t she called it and didn't let either one of us slide on homework. 

Counselors like that are very rare. I think she was different because along with being a family/marriage counselor she had also done time in the trenches as an addiction counselor. I think you need to try a few more counselors on for size until you find one you can work with. 

Never back down from bullsh!t LJ. If your WW is wrong, calmly tell her she is wrong and control your flow. If you need to erupt go somewhere private and scream, kick the neighbor's cat....just don't go off on the WW.


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## drifting on

LucasJackson said:


> We're at a sticking point over "love". I firmly believe women don't have regular sex with a man they don't have strong feelings for. She says that AP meant nothing to her. I call bullsh*t and we go round and round. I know how women are wired. They don't carry on with a dude for a year without putting their heart in it. Then again, she "cheated" on him too with the other two douche bags so I don't know what to believe.
> 
> I'm staying committed to trying because I promised I would but I have to say this honestly, I was happier when I was detaching and planning my life post-D. I am not happy right now. Things I had "gotten over" and was putting behind me are now boiling back up. It's like there was a huge scar forming over my heart but at least it was healing and now I'm picking at that scar.




Lucas

You are going to rip that scab off more then you would like. Just when it starts to heal a trigger happens and its rehashed all over again. Many times you will think you are healing and past a nuance only to find it comes back and you feel at square one all over again. It's a process, sometimes repeated, often times very difficult. 

As for the love, I think you know deep down your wife did love each affair partner. She gave all of herself to each of these OM's, and still loved you. Each of us has our point that we say we can't accept, yours is love, but you said yourself if she gave them her heart you'd be gone. Then you say you know how women are wired, that she did love them, yet it's your deal breaker. You are going to go around and around on this. If you can't accept she loved someone else, then you need to stop reconciliation now. I am not saying she loved the OM that raped her. 

As for your therapist, you need to know if they specialize in infidelity. If they are not, then find another therapist. You should be starting with forgiveness, so all of the affair(s) are to be discussed at length. You need as much information as possible or that you can handle. You have to know what exactly you are forgiving. My suggestion is this, take a ten or fifteen piece puzzle to your next session. Lay the completed puzzle on the table. Tell your wife this is how she knows and sees the affair(s). She has the entire picture because she was a part of the infidelity. Now take out three to five pieces of the puzzle, tell your wife this is how you see the affair(s). Without asking your wife look at your therapist and point to an empty spot. Ask your therapist to explain to you what goes there? What happened here? How am I to heal when I don't know? This needs to be discussed so that I may heal, so I can grow as a person. 

Your wife also needs to do this so she can heal and grow. It needs to be discussed so a boundary can be applied. If your therapist can't understand this, you need to find a new one. MC is the tool to discuss the entire affair, to learn and forgive, if even possible. YOU WILL STRUGGLE. This is normal. Please ask your therapist how discussing the affair is not constructive, it's the biggest part of forgiveness for damns sake!!! 

Validating your wife's feelings are important, but you are not at that point yet. Right now in forgiveness the first priority is to make you feel safe. Validating your wife's feelings is not going to make you feel safe. This part is very difficult for the WS, reflecting back on such a terrible choice and act is not pleasant, but your wife needs to see this to get to full remorse. If your wife is telling you discussing the affair is not constructive, then she isn't remorseful. Your wife should also be arguing this to protect you, which it sounds like she is not doing. Also tell your therapist that it seems they are siding together, teammates if you will. This should prompt your therapist to be on an even platform with you both. 

I wish you the best Lucas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucy999

Find a new MC.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

You are the one who was betrayed. You need to heal and your wife has a lot of work to do to help you heal. If the therapist won't even let you go there, you will not get help from that therapist. It sounds like the therapist is putting ownership of reconciliation all on your back. It's your wife who should be validating and comforting you, not the other way around.


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## becareful2

I was going to suggest firing the MC but to let your wife do it. Tell her to tell the MC, "You're fired." Then take her hand and work out of the office, and find a new MC.


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## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> We're at a sticking point over "love". I firmly believe women don't have regular sex with a man they don't have strong feelings for. She says that AP meant nothing to her. I call bullsh*t and we go round and round. I know how women are wired. They don't carry on with a dude for a year without putting their heart in it. Then again, she "cheated" on him too with the other two douche bags so I don't know what to believe.
> 
> I'm staying committed to trying because I promised I would but I have to say this honestly, I was happier when I was detaching and planning my life post-D. I am not happy right now. Things I had "gotten over" and was putting behind me are now boiling back up. It's like there was a huge scar forming over my heart but at least it was healing and now I'm picking at that scar.


Why are you reconciling? What is the reason? What is your wife's reason that she wants to be back in your life? What were the reasons she gave you?

It's not your fault that she cheated. It's hers, and I'd not continue with a therapist who suggests otherwise. That said, if you're not all in, then there's no point in reconciling. I don't think you're in the wrong either way.


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## TAMAT

Lucas,

Did you chose the counselor or her?

Have her write out a time line for the affair and then take her to a polygraph test.

A marraig counselor who is anti-marriage is as bad as a "trainer" at a gym who is just out to pick up women.

Tamat


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## rzmpf

Sounds like the typical rugsweep and blameshifting MC.


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## JohnA

Lucas, picking a therapist involves three questions of them. 

Issues are issues - adultery is adultery. If they aswer true then ask 

Which gets addressed FIRST in depth: issues or adultery? If their answer is adultety ask

How are we going to fix/heal the adultery. Listen, ask questions then hire or move on.


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## harrybrown

LucasJackson said:


> I don't like MC. Went last night. I feel like it's them against me. I have to validate her feelings, which I do, but when my feelings are that I want to discuss the affair more in depth that is met with sh*t like "that's not constructive". Where the F is the validation for my feelings? I feel like I'm being scammed. I know I know....it takes time. Still, I feel what I feel and somebody should f'ing validate it.


you need a new counselor. try affair recovery. you can find them online.


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## JohnA

Validate implies agreeing and acting on. Understanding implies you might or might not agree, but you can see the reasoning even if you disagree. Understanding while disagreeing leaves open the possibility of change or compromise.


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## drifting on

How goes it on the Homefront Lucas? Hoping all is going good for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LucasJackson

drifting on said:


> How goes it on the Homefront Lucas? Hoping all is going good for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's ok. We just got back from a week in Orlando. I went for a work conference and she tagged along. Had some "romantic" evenings. I use quotes because they would have been romantic in years' past but I'm just not feeling it.

I'm really confused these days. I've gone from devastated and suicidal (a few years ago when it happened), to depressed, to accepting, to excited about a new single life, to regaining some feelings for my WW, to the question I ask myself a million times a day. "Is this what I want?" "Is this worth it?" I'm not feeling it. I'm told it takes time. Ok, I'm giving it some time but I'm 49. I don't want to give it forever.

We had sex on the trip. I don't feel right about sharing stuff like this here but I really don't have anyone else to share it with. Anyway, this was our first sex in years. Yes, that's right, years. Since about a week after d-day when we did some brief HB. Anyway, I'm not feeling it there either. In fact, more than one time I was fantasizing about beautiful women I had seen at the conference or at Disney Springs when we were clubbing. That made it work for me. If I didn't do that I doubted my ability to be able to perform. I'm not feeling it with her and neither is Mr. Happy. He's my best buddy and he doesn't feel it with her either.

Maybe I should lay all this on the table at MC. I don't know. If I have to pick right now this minute, however, I'd say we're not going to make it. It's a lot for me to rationalize. I'm starting to believe that I can really love someone that I can't live with anymore. Still, I'll give it more time. Maybe until at least the beginning of next year. My 50th birthday is early next year. If I don't feel it by then, then I think I'll very nicely tell her I'm done. I plan on living to be 100. I still have an entire half of my life ahead of me. I can't spend that with someone I'm not feeling it with. We'll see. Thanks for asking.


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## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> *Maybe I should lay all this on the table at MC. I don't know. *


If you don't bring this up there then why are you wasting time going? What are afraid of? I don't understand you...


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## EllisRedding

drifter777 said:


> If you don't bring this up there then why are you wasting time going? What are afraid of? I don't understand you...


:iagree:


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## LucasJackson

Of course I'll bring it up and I'll be told that we just recently agreed to reconcile. Give it time. That's why I question the point in wasting the breath to bring it up.


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## harrybrown

has she written a timeline and diary of the A's for you?

get a new counselor before bringing these feelings up. Do not go back to the last counselor.

What has she done to show her remorse? If she is not being honest, she is not remorseful.

Without honesty, she will never rebuild any trust.

Has she read about how to help you heal? I know she read divorce busting, but she is not helping you heal. have you told her to figure that out?

Time for more work for her.


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## EllisRedding

LucasJackson said:


> Of course I'll bring it up and I'll be told that we just recently agreed to reconcile. Give it time. That's why I question the point in wasting the breath to bring it up.


I think the point is, what is the point of MC if you are holding things back. If you really want this reconciliation to work, don't you both have to lay it all out there, and not just selectively decide what to discuss or ignore?


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## switcher

LucasJackson said:


> I plan on living to be 100. I still have an entire half of my life ahead of me. I can't spend that with someone I'm not feeling it with. We'll see. Thanks for asking.


Yeah but the years after 70 or so don't really count for much unless you're looking for a bingo partner.


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## LucasJackson

harrybrown said:


> has she written a timeline and diary of the A's for you?
> 
> get a new counselor before bringing these feelings up. Do not go back to the last counselor.
> 
> What has she done to show her remorse? If she is not being honest, she is not remorseful.
> 
> Without honesty, she will never rebuild any trust.
> 
> Has she read about how to help you heal? I know she read divorce busting, but she is not helping you heal. have you told her to figure that out?
> 
> Time for more work for her.


Done all that long ago. This didn't just happen. What happened recently is I put D on hold and decided to work to see if we can repair the M. Sometimes I feel like I'm not giving it my all but I feel how I feel. I had two+ years to detach and was 100% convinced we were divorcing. It's not easy falling back in love with someone who so badly betrayed you.


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## LucasJackson

switcher said:


> Yeah but the years after 70 or so don't really count for much unless you're looking for a bingo partner.


I've thought about that but it's all relative. What seems like meaningless after 70 to you and I right now is probably very important to the 70+ year olds. It'll also probably be very important to us when we're that age.


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## drifter777

LucasJackson said:


> Of course I'll bring it up and I'll be told that we just recently agreed to reconcile. Give it time. That's why I question the point in wasting the breath to bring it up.


Ok - I get it. You will agree that it is vital no matter how your wife & counselor try to rationalize it - right?

I wish others would weigh in on this because I've never heard of going this long without returning to your regular sex life. Issues and triggers while doing certain things? Of course but you are disgusted with her for what she did and you seem to be simply hoping for a miracle to happen and you magically heal. Dude, you are trying hard. No matter what you or anyone else thinks, you've been trying to reconcile since d-day. If not you would have been gone and none of this would be going on. 

I think it's great that you are honestly acknowledging these feelings you have and looking for feedback. You haven't locked into some behavior that you think you "should" but are genuinely trying to take a pragmatic approach. By now I think you are getting a lot of good feedback from your own heart and you need to start believing it.


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## GusPolinski

drifter777 said:


> Ok - I get it. You will agree that it is vital no matter how your wife & counselor try to rationalize it - right?
> 
> I wish others would weigh in on this because I've never heard of going this long without returning to your regular sex life. Issues and triggers while doing certain things? Of course but you are disgusted with her for what she did and you seem to be simply hoping for a miracle to happen and you magically heal. Dude, you are trying hard. No matter what you or anyone else thinks, you've been trying to reconcile since d-day. If not you would have been gone and none of this would be going on.
> 
> I think it's great that you are honestly acknowledging these feelings you have and looking for feedback. You haven't locked into some behavior that you think you "should" but are genuinely trying to take a pragmatic approach. By now I think you are getting a lot of good feedback from your own heart and you need to start believing it.


Several have already advised him to divorce, and his most recent revelations w/ respect to his disinterest, lack of enhusiasm, and detachment are just more fuel for that fire.

So your anger wore off.

Big deal.

Doesn't mean there's anything there worth saving.

Seems like you should've realized that a couple of years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> Done all that long ago. This didn't just happen. What happened recently is I put D on hold and decided to work to see if we can repair the M. Sometimes I feel like I'm not giving it my all but I feel how I feel. I had two+ years to detach and was 100% convinced we were divorcing. It's not easy falling back in love with someone who so badly betrayed you.


Why do you feel the need to force yourself to be "in love" with her again. Will plain old love suffice? 


You cannot make yourself fall in love with someone again. It either happens organically or it doesn't.


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> We had sex on the trip. I don't feel right about sharing stuff like this here but I really don't have anyone else to share it with. Anyway, this was our first sex in years. Yes, that's right, years. Since about a week after d-day when we did some brief HB. Anyway, I'm not feeling it there either. In fact, more than one time I was fantasizing about beautiful women I had seen at the conference or at Disney Springs when we were clubbing. That made it work for me. If I didn't do that I doubted my ability to be able to perform. I'm not feeling it with her and neither is Mr. Happy. He's my best buddy and he doesn't feel it with her either.


You could try sex immersion. That is where you go twenty one days straight having sex every...single...day... You start right after her period is over and you don't stop for three weeks. They say if you force yourself to have sex every day, you can regain much of the sexual bond you lost with your partner.


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## becareful2

LucasJackson said:


> We used to believe in fate, fairy tale romance, soul mates. Neither of us do now. That's growth.


You can call it growth, but others call it the new normal, when our ideals didn't pan out. There are many couples who still believe in soul mates and fate, and they grew old together without any infidelity involved. Did those couples not grow up?


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## drifter777

bandit.45 said:


> You could try sex immersion. That is where you go twenty one days straight having sex every...single...day... You start right after her period is over and you don't stop for three weeks. They say if you force yourself to have sex every day, you can regain much of the sexual bond you lost with your partner.


I'm not sure this addresses the issue. He has no desire for her and doesn't want to repair any sexual bond. If the desire is not organic then it's just a mirage...


----------



## Palodyne

becareful2 said:


> You can call it growth, but others call it the new normal, when our ideals didn't pan out. There are many couples who still believe in soul mates and fate, and they grew old together without any infidelity involved. Did those couples not grow up?


 Now you are talking about my parents. They started dating in high school and married when he was 19 and she was 18. They will celebrate their 53rd wedding anniversary in 2 days. They have each told me they never, at any point, saw themselves being with anyone else.

As for their children... I was cheated on twice, once by my girlfriend and then by my fiancé. My sister cheated on her husband, and is now on her second marriage. My brother's wife cheated on him, he now in his second marriage where his wife has cheated and he is a Mad Hatter. 

I have asked my parents about this difference, and also explained about the many people I have talked to on SI, and the many threads I have read here. Their answer has been little help over the years, but I will share it with you. They said..."None of them, and you, has found the right one. When you find the one, you just now. And there is nothing that will ever make you let them go." I have no answer to the question, " Did my parents never grow up?" But if you could still feel the way they do about each other after over 5 decades, why would you ever want to grow up.


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## *Deidre*

I think that maybe too much time has passed perhaps? And you lost the feelings you once had for her? Idk. I hope you figure it all out, Lucas.


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## Palodyne

bandit.45 said:


> You could try sex immersion. That is where you go twenty one days straight having sex every...single...day... You start right after her period is over and you don't stop for three weeks. They say if you force yourself to have sex every day, you can regain much of the sexual bond you lost with your partner.


Force yourself love someone by having sex everyday. I've never heard of anything like that before. I just can't understand how constant sex could cause an intellectual, and emotional bond. Or how it could rebuild trust.


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## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> You can call it growth, but others call it the new normal, when our ideals didn't pan out. There are many couples who still believe in soul mates and fate, and they grew old together without any infidelity involved. Did those couples not grow up?


Maybe they were lucky enough to live a lifetime of a child's love. An innocent love. If that's really their case then such a couple would be truly blessed.


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## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> You could try sex immersion. That is where you go twenty one days straight having sex every...single...day... You start right after her period is over and you don't stop for three weeks. They say if you force yourself to have sex every day, you can regain much of the sexual bond you lost with your partner.


I've read about chemical bonding. You might be right. Heck, I'm game. I used to love sex. Now it brings me pain which I hate to admit, but it's true.


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## drifting on

Lucas

I'm writing this to reconcile as that is what you have said you wanted, but understand this, you are in the early stages of reconciliation. Early on your emotions and feelings are confused, disbelief is more accurate, that infidelity has truly happened. Where I struggled, and still struggle at times, is separating all of the issues before you. This is very hard to do considering how betrayed you feel, how much hurt you feel, and how your marriage feels like a fraud. It's normal to feel this way, it's terrible to feel this way, yet this is your life at this moment. 

Not having sex in years is huge, you need to know why sex stopped between the two of you. This was the single greatest bond between a couple. You feel closest to your partner while intimate, your purest love is expressed whole heartedly in this moment of intimacy. You give all of yourself and she gives all of herself. This is what makes intimacy so special, the giving of ones self completely to the other. Your issue is that she allowed herself to give this of herself to another. In other words, you have not fully accepted the affairs, you are still in a state of disbelief and keep questioning why and how this happened. This is what you discuss in MC, this will then lead to why you feel the way you do today. There is no doubt in my mind that you love your wife, but being in love is so much more different. 

Being in love with your wife is really not possible at this point in time, you haven't accepted the affair in your mind. Parts of you feel that you have, but deep down you are still confused and filled with betrayal. This needs to be brought to the surface and discussed at length in MC. Questions answered, questions asked, your MC is to help you navigate through this, and it will be quite difficult. 

Sex with your wife is now changed forever, I too went through the motions. Very little feeling, love seemed so lost, yet this is the person you knew completely. Everything about your marriage changes, you change, and your wife changed. If you were like me you thought about intimacy and were nervous, your wife was nervous, when this was once so special to you both. Now it's changed, you struggle with your emotions, but if this is the one person you still want to be with, then keep trying. Keep initiating, start early in the morning and seducing her during the day. By night you will both have some passion, and you keep doing this several times a week. I once read an article that was entitled something like sex starts in the morning. Basically the article states that for women they want for you to start early, give signs of love all day, and by night sex is incredible. I do admit that it works, and for me brought back some of the passion but not all. The rest comes from being vulnerable and her reactions to your vulnerability. As you feel more safe your vulnerability will come more naturally, you'll be less apprehensive to be vulnerable if she accepts it the right way. This also causes trust to be built, which is so important for her to earn back. 

I wish you the best of luck Lucas, we are about the same age and I had many of the concerns you have. I can only tell you that with time, hard work from both of you, your new marriage can be something you are happy about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

Did your wife ever in the past initiate sex pre adultery? Try to initiate sex post adultery?


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## Satya

LucasJackson said:


> Of course I'll bring it up and I'll be told that we just recently agreed to reconcile. Give it time. That's why I question the point in wasting the breath to bring it up.


Yeah maybe you just recently agreed to reconcile, but you'd been processing this a long time before that!! So it's not just yesterday for you. Any counselor worth their $$$ would take that into consideration. 

And stop preempting excuses. It's holding you back from taking action and setting you up for sure failure. 

If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it. Own it. Life is too short and its ticking away every second you make a new excuse.


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## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> I've read about chemical bonding. You might be right. Heck, I'm game. I used to love sex. Now it brings me pain which I hate to admit, but it's true.


Double up on the Viagra and fake it till you make it. Objectify her if you have to. Forget she's your wife and just do her. The intimacy will hopefully follow the sexual bonding.


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## EllisRedding

bandit.45 said:


> Double up on the Viagra and fake it till you make it. Objectify her if you have to. Forget she's your wife and just do her. The intimacy will hopefully follow the sexual bonding.


LJs next post here will be about his 8 hour erection and if he should go to the hospital ...


----------



## MyRevelation

bandit.45 said:


> Double up on the Viagra and fake it till you make it. Objectify her if you have to. Forget she's your wife and just do her. The intimacy will hopefully follow the sexual bonding.


I'd like to respectfully disagree here. Granted, I'm fairly new here on this site, but not to infidelity and how it changes lives. Plus, I share a certain geographical brotherhood with LJ that has its own indescribable uniqueness.

Just my observations, but when I first came to this site, LJ was confident in his approach ... was getting his mojo back, and was looking forward to the future and the adventures it held. However, once he allowed himself to be worn down by the DB nonsense and agreed to attempt reconciliation, that all changed and he now finds himself back in a sexless M with the same W that caused this dysfunction in his life. His head and his heart may be conflicted over what to do, but his body isn't betraying him ... it knows he was on the correct path and won't accept this destructive old all too familiar path. LJ admits he used to like sex very much and even after doing without for an extended time, his body still isn't comfortable allowing itself to becoming reattached to the source of that conflict.

I know for myself, when I'm struggling with a difficult decision, a certain calmness comes over me, when my head and my gut sync up. LJ's conflict likely comes from the fact his mind and gut are in conflict over this change in direction. I'm a huge proponent of BH's maintaining their self respect, because if a man can't get comfortable in his own skin, then he's not much use to anyone, including himself.

I came across this poem on another forum, saved it and reflect on it often to make sure I remain true to MYSELF. Hopefully, LJ can find a path to inner peace, calmness in its words:

_The Guy in the Glass

by Dale Wimbrow, (c) 1934

When you get what you want in your struggle for self,
And the world makes you King for a day,
Then go to the mirror and look at yourself,
And see what that guy has to say.

For it isn't your Father, or Mother, or Wife,
Whose judgement upon you must pass.
The feller whose verdict that counts most in your life
Is the guy staring back from the glass.

He's the feller to please, never mind all the rest,
For he's with you clear up to the end,
And you've passed your most dangerous, difficult test
If the guy in the glass is your friend.

You may be like Jack Horner and "chisel" a plum,
And think you're a wonderful guy,
But the man in the glass says you're only a bum
If you can't look him straight in the eye.

You can fool the whole world down the pathway of years,
And get pats on the back as you pass,
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
If you've cheated the guy in the glass.


_


----------



## bandit.45

EllisRedding said:


> LJs next post here will be about his 8 hour erection and if he should go to the hospital ...


Just keep a razor blade handy.


----------



## Satya

If he's going to objectify her, he may as well go out and buy a fleshlight.....


----------



## *Deidre*

MyRevelation said:


> I'd like to respectfully disagree here. Granted, I'm fairly new here on this site, but not to infidelity and how it changes lives. Plus, I share a certain geographical brotherhood with LJ that has its own indescribable uniqueness.
> 
> Just my observations, but when I first came to this site, LJ was confident in his approach ... was getting his mojo back, and was looking forward to the future and the adventures it held. However, once he allowed himself to be worn down by the DB nonsense and agreed to attempt reconciliation, that all changed and he now finds himself back in a sexless M with the same W that caused this dysfunction in his life. His head and his heart may be conflicted over what to do, but his body isn't betraying him ... it knows he was on the correct path and won't accept this destructive old all too familiar path. LJ admits he used to like sex very much and even after doing without for an extended time, his body still isn't comfortable allowing itself to becoming reattached to the source of that conflict.
> 
> I know for myself, when I'm struggling with a difficult decision, a certain calmness comes over me, when my head and my gut sync up. LJ's conflict likely comes from the fact his mind and gut are in conflict over this change in direction. I'm a huge proponent of BH's maintaining their self respect, because if a man can't get comfortable in his own skin, then he's not much use to anyone, including himself.


I agree with this. Suggesting to someone who has been cheated on to fake their way through sex with their WS seems kind of odd, to me. I agree too that it seems like Lucas was looking forward to a new start on life, and in reading some of these updates, it would seem like he's feeling obligated to stay in something that he just might not be feeling, anymore. My advice fwiw, would be to not force things that aren't feeling naturally good to do. 

I've said this before, but IMO, it's just too much work and mental gymnastics to reconcile with a cheater. Especially a serial cheater. But, that's just me. My respect to those here who have successfully reconciled, but they wanted to be back with their WS. So, it seemed like even though they had to heal, they genuinely wanted the marriage to work, and to sleep with their WS again. If someone's heart isn't in it, not sure why people try to keep forcing a square peg into a round hole. Anyway, it's hard I'm sure, but that's just my view.


----------



## 225985

When I was young I hated the taste of beer. It was a struggle to drink one can. But i kept drinking more and more. 

Now i love beer. Drinking beer comes naturally, not forced. Of course now i drink better beer. 

I think that is the point. 

Or maybe it is like driving a car. If you get in a crash and get hurt you might be hesitant to drive again. The first few times you get back to driving it might be awkward. But eventually you are back to driving like normal.


----------



## GusPolinski

blueinbr said:


> When I was young I hated the taste of beer. It was a struggle to drink one can. But i kept drinking more and more.
> 
> Now i love beer. Drinking beer comes naturally, not forced. *Of course now i drink better beer.*
> 
> I think that is the point.
> 
> Or maybe it is like driving a car. If you get in a crash and get hurt you might be hesitant to drive again. The first few times you get back to driving it might be awkward. But eventually you are back to driving like normal.




I agree.

LJ should get a better woman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

GusPolinski said:


> I agree.
> 
> LJ should get a better woman.


Yep. I knew someone was going to comment on that. I did not want to be the one to say it.


----------



## LucasJackson

Update:

Divorce is back on. I got TT'd and I told her before she had only 1 chance and that was to come clean about everything. OBS and her WH are doing R and she has all his old emails/texts. Apparently there were some "I love you's" exchanged and some casual talks about the possibility of running off together.

I knew it. I had been saying it all along and she stuck to her story. We had MC and I disclosed my plans. Said I'm done, suggested she continue with IC and wished her well. I'm calling a realtor tomorrow. Kids said they want to live with me because she lied to them multiple times during her A's plus they fight with her way more than with me. She sweats the small stuff with them and I never did.

Don't fee bad for me. I posted here that I had no more tears for this and I don't. I feel fine, I really do. Instead of being sad that the D is definitely happening, I'm glad that I literally only had to try R for about a month before this revelation. Even if we had R'd successfully for 10 years and I found this out, I would have immediately filed for D. 

This is a note for cheaters. When your BS gives you ONE chance to come clean, you better take it and tell them EVERYTHING, no matter how hurtful to them it will be.

Oh well, F it. Life is too short to sit around feeling sorry for myself. I'm going to take my road trip alone after all. I'm looking forward to my post-D life again. I'm happier today than I was before I found out. I really am. I wasn't feeling it anyway so this is really a blessing. Now I can move on feeling like I tried and she can get back to her new crazy self where she bangs nasty creeps. Good luck with that.

Everyone have a great weekend. I took tomorrow off. I'm going to ride my Harley down to Louisville this weekend to visit a friend and get drunk. The friend is my old best friend from high school and is a very attractive female. My wife was very jealous of me having a female best friend so she and I haven't hung out in decades. I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## 225985

Enjoy the beer. And wear a condom.


----------



## *Deidre*

Wow, but not surprised.  Have an amazing weekend and happy that you're resolved now!!

Just curious, how did she take the news that it's over?


----------



## becareful2

Don't you want to wait for the year to end before divorcing due to financial reasons? Are your kids old enough to choose who they want to live with?


----------



## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> Wow, but not surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have an amazing weekend and happy that you're resolved now!!
> 
> Just curious, how did she take the news that it's over?


Some tears but she said she could tell I "don't love her anymore". I told her that's not true. I'll always love her in some way. I just don't respect her anymore. Probably never will. I won't "punish" her. I got my revenge years ago. I really do hope she finds happiness. It just won't include me. I can't be married to someone I don't trust or respect. 

As for the condom suggestion. One, I hate them and don't use them. Two, she and I aren't like that. At least we never have been. I just need to go. I'm not coming back till late Sunday. I need to unplug from everything for a few days. I told her this and she invited me to come down. It seems like a great way to get away from it all without going too far from home.


----------



## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> Don't you want to wait for the year to end before divorcing due to financial reasons? Are your kids old enough to choose who they want to live with?


Screw the financial reasons. I don't need the money. I'd rather get on with my life as quickly as possible. After I told her my plan she tried to seduce me later that night. I can't be around that right now. 

Kids are old enough. They fight with her most days anyway. Always have. She's too strict. Always has been. I'm sure they'll spend some time with her. She's still their mom. It'll be easier for her. She and the kids are more dysfunctional than she and I ever were. She just worries about them. I'm sure we'll both stay in the Cincy area. I know I will. She won't lose her kids. She does have a lot of work to do to repair her relationship with them. They lost respect for her. Good luck getting that back. I have no ideas for her.


----------



## becareful2

When the emails were revealed, did she finally fessed up or did she claim she didn't remember? What is her mental state now?


----------



## JohnA

When and how did these emails come to light?


----------



## Wolfman1968

LucasJackson said:


> Update:
> 
> 
> Oh well, F it. Life is too short to sit around feeling sorry for myself. I'm going to take my road trip alone after all. I'm looking forward to my post-D life again. I'm happier today than I was before I found out. I really am. I wasn't feeling it anyway so this is really a blessing. *Now I can move on feeling like I tried *and she can get back to her new crazy self where she bangs nasty creeps. Good luck with that.


You know, although you got a lot of pushback from the posters here at first, saying that you were making a big mistake by trying to reconcile, I agree with you that it was actually better this way.

You only lost about 1 month to this false reconciliation, so that's not too bad. Most importantly, you will now never wonder whether "you could have patched the marriage up if you tried" or "what would have happened if you had not gone through with the divorce", etc. You will now not need to second-guess yourself about your plan to go through with the divorce. You DID give it a try, and showed that she wasn't giving it any honest effort.

Really, I think this really was the best for you. I will say, you got lucky that the reconciliation was exposed as false in a month; you could well have invested years in a false reconciliation attmept. In that, you are indeed lucky, my man!


----------



## Bananapeel

LucasJackson said:


> Update:
> 
> Divorce is back on. I got TT'd and I told her before she had only 1 chance and that was to come clean about everything.


That's not unexpected about the TT. I discovered months after my D that my XWW had another previous affair (maybe even more than that??) that she never admitted to and still doesn't know that I know about. Once someone demonstrates that they can lie and manipulate someone they supposedly love, you just have to expect that it is part of their character and is something they can't easily change about themselves. Glad you caught it early, are being decisive about your standards, and can move forward with your life. 



LucasJackson said:


> As for the condom suggestion. One, I hate them and don't use them. Two, she and I aren't like that. At least we never have been. I just need to go. I'm not coming back till late Sunday. I need to unplug from everything for a few days. I told her this and she invited me to come down. It seems like a great way to get away from it all without going too far from home.


Everybody hates condoms but bring them and use them. Do you really want a brief lapse of judgement while you're drunk to land you 18 years of child support? And just because you aren't like that now doesn't mean she won't change once you become available. I'd wager that most recently divorced people here have slept with a few of their single friends that never displayed interest when they were married. I'm not one to kiss and tell, but....:wink2:


----------



## bandit.45

LucasJackson said:


> Some tears but she said she could tell I "don't love her anymore". I told her that's not true. I'll always love her in some way. I just don't respect her anymore. Probably never will. I won't "punish" her. I got my revenge years ago. I really do hope she finds happiness. It just won't include me. I can't be married to someone I don't trust or respect.
> 
> As for the condom suggestion. One, I hate them and don't use them. Two, she and I aren't like that. At least we never have been. I just need to go. I'm not coming back till late Sunday. I need to unplug from everything for a few days. I told her this and she invited me to come down. It seems like a great way to get away from it all without going too far from home.


Even though I know you are not officially separated or divorced...

I kind hope you get laid like asphalt this weekend. :wink2:


----------



## EllisRedding

Wait until the motorcycle ride is over before you load up on Viagra ...


----------



## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> Some tears but she said she could tell I "don't love her anymore". I told her that's not true. I'll always love her in some way. I just don't respect her anymore. Probably never will. I won't "punish" her. I got my revenge years ago. I really do hope she finds happiness. It just won't include me. I can't be married to someone I don't trust or respect.
> 
> As for the condom suggestion. One, I hate them and don't use them. Two, she and I aren't like that. At least we never have been. I just need to go. I'm not coming back till late Sunday. I need to unplug from everything for a few days. I told her this and she invited me to come down. It seems like a great way to get away from it all without going too far from home.


It's good you tried, for now you can say ''I tried...'' Truthfully, I didn't think your wife would change, and I also thought in reading your story that you were not into the whole reconciliation thing, anymore. Some hurts are hard to reconcile - not that you can't forgive your wife, but you can forgive her from afar. lol I hope that she finds happiness and peace, because it seems like that's what's lacking in her life.

Have a fun weekend!!


----------



## drifter777

She thought she was safe and she could take this and every other secret about her affair to her grave. You couldn't prove this particular thing so she was home free. The OM's BW f*uked her big-time - I hope she get's the irony...

You really tried so I hope you can move on with a clear conscience. I never thought you had a chance to R - never. Even the title of this thread says all anyone needs to know about your feelings about this whole f*ucking thing. 

You know she is going to rev up the DB crap again, right? I think the unspoken page 1 of that script is "screw his brains out & keep it up until he forgets why he wants to divorce". Actually that would just be a reminder to women because they all learn very early that sex is their most powerful weapon.


----------



## LosingHim

Damnit. Sorry LJ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caruso

Hope she'll give you uncontested custody of the kids.


----------



## JohnA

Going forward the value of the attempt at reconcilation is what have you learned to apply to your next relationship. I am referring to DB. It obviously has value as it worked on you. How will you use it to improve yourself? I love this quote, use what applies 


Why improve yourself by the new wife of a BS*

As a side note I always find it very interesting when a person is hammering their ex mate so hard for cheating and refuses to accept any responsibility for anything that might have been wrong in the marriage.

My husband's exwife cheated on him and left him for the OM. She was pregnant by OM before the divorce was final. When I met him he admitted he knew he'd done things in the marriage which left it vulnerable to an affair.*

He owned his behavior.*

He didn't condone her affair but he accepted responsibility for his part in the demise of their marriage. That was something I had to respect. He worked on himself, in therapy, while they were separated and divorcing. When she wouldn't go to MC, he went alone, and I have reaped the benefit from that counseling. *


----------



## LucasJackson

This weekend is turning out unbelievable. Can't talk now. Kind of drunk. So much happening. I'm in Nashville. Spur of the moment thing. We decided to come down and see a mutual friend's band. A good friend from my old band days. Other stuff happening too. I'll post Monday. Feeling blown away but happy right now. Have a fun weekend everybody.


----------



## caruso

Not a good time to be drinking.


----------



## LucasJackson

I think it was a great time to be drinking. I got home a couple hours ago. Gotta do laundry and get ready for the week. My wife is out shopping somewhere. Haven't seen her yet. One thing I figured out this weekend is that for me to heal, I need her physical presence out of my life. I'd LOVE to move to Nashville. I have a couple friends there, both in bands. We were all metal heads back in the 80's but they're both country/rock/blues players now.

As for my friend I stayed with, that whole situation blew my mind but was exactly what I needed. I'm not going into much detail about the whole weekend but it was crazy/wonderful. She was a great best friend/confidante for years but made my wife jealous so we stopped communicating decades ago. Got there Thursday morning. By lunch time it was like we had never been apart. We laid on the floor like when we were young and just talked for hours. About our successes (both our careers), our failures (both our marriages), old friends we lost track of, our kids, etc. That was when she said why don't we get on your bike and ride down to Nashville and visit <our friend>. It was a great reunion and I didn't think of anything negative the entire time. I really needed this. She's an amazing woman and I'm definitely going to bring her back into my life. This weekend made me realize how much I missed her. I'm definitely going to rectify that. It was just an amazing weekend with her. A lot of which I'm going to keep private.

I have so much logistical crap coming up. I have to dissolve an almost 30 year marriage where everything is in both names. House, cars, insurance, retirement, etc. So much. I'd rather hire someone to do all that and I just show up and sign papers.

She told our daughter what happened and tried to explain her side of it. She said that she didn't bring up the "love" part of the A because she realized it wasn't real so it would only complicate things to bring it up. Our daughter told her she should have been completely honest like she has told her 1000 times when she'd get in trouble for lying. Gotta give my daughter props for that. Part of me understands why she lied about that. I do understand damage control and self-preservation. That's why any of us lie. 

Still, I gave her a chance. She could have wiped the lie slate clean and maybe saved our marriage. No way I can be talked into trying that again. I should have stayed the D course from the beginning but I felt like I should give it one chance. I don't know what drama lies ahead when she gets home. She texted our DD that she's at a nail place now and will be home in an hour. I don't want to fight about us, a divorce, money, the house, anything. I just don't. We both have good degrees and can support ourselves. Our kids are almost adults so there's no little ones to fight over. I don't want to fight. I just want to go. Be done with it. Be away from her. I know that I'll feel better much quicker. I was away all weekend and didn't lament over her even for a second. I hope she figures herself out and finds happiness again. I'm not mad, I'm not sad. I just want to get on with the next phase of my life.

I hope everyone else had a nice weekend.


----------



## *Deidre*

Glad to see you're in bright spirits, Lucas! My prediction for your wife...is she will drag out a divorce. Because from your story, seems like she wanted her cake and to eat it too, and now the cake is going away. 

I hope you stay resolved. Have a good week!


----------



## bandit.45

Glad to hear you got laid. 

Just go slowly this time. Don't rush into a rebound. In fact, wait at least five years before tying the knot again.


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> Glad to hear you got laid.
> 
> Just go slowly this time. Don't rush into a rebound. In fact, wait at least five years before tying the knot again.


I don't know if I ever want to be married again. For about the same reason that I don't ever want to own a house again. I'm going to travel lighter from here on out. I did the marriage/house/roots thing. That's not what I want for the second half of my life. I don't want this to sound bad, and I hope it's not misunderstood, but I'm going to live a selfish life for a little while. I've never done that and I want to. I'm going to do what I want to do and what's good for me before I go back to compromising and sacrificing for someone else.

My friend and I agreed about that. She said she had no interest in ever getting married again. Neither of us ruled it out 100% but it's so much compromise and work. I wonder if it was all worth it. I guess all people with failed marriages wonder if it was ever worth it. I'm sure people with long term fairy tale marriages think differently. I'm not swearing off relationships. I look forward to future relationships. I just don't want to ruin them with marriage. :wink2:


----------



## caruso

LucasJackson said:


> I have so much logistical crap coming up. I have to dissolve an almost 30 year marriage where everything is in both names. House, cars, insurance, retirement, etc. So much. I'd rather hire someone to do all that and I just show up and sign papers.


If only divorce could be that easy. I suppose if you were willing to give her everything she asked for, which will basically be everything you own including custody of your children and lifetime alimony; then you could simply sign the papers and be done with it.

This is not the time to be a) getting drunk b) getting involved with another woman and c) underestimating your wife and what she's capable of if she wants to make your life miserable. You also need to realize that this "natural high" you are now experiencing is not going to last forever. Expect your moods to change. There's going to be a lot of up and down before it levels off.


----------



## GusPolinski

caruso said:


> If only divorce could be that easy. I suppose if you were willing to give her everything she asked for, which will basically be everything you own including custody of your children and lifetime alimony; then you could simply sign the papers and be done with it.
> 
> This is not the time to be a) getting drunk b) getting involved with another woman and c) underestimating your wife and what she's capable of if she wants to make your life miserable. You also need to realize that this "natural high" you are now experiencing is not going to last forever. Expect your moods to change. There's going to be a lot of up and down before it levels off.


Lotta wisdom in there.

Too bad he's not gonna heed any of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## becareful2

I'd hate to see a three decade marriage end due to infidelity with broken hearts on both sides. Maybe you should consider sticking to your original plan to finish waiting out the year...


----------



## Capricious

I just caught upon your thread and wanted to wish you all the best from here on forward.
You will walk away with a clear conscious knowing that you gave her a chance, and she decided to blow it (no pun intended).


----------



## brooklynAnn

Lucas, sorry things did not work out. Wishing you well... don't start a new hobby with drinking. That just inviting problems. Take care and be well.


----------



## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> I'd hate to see a three decade marriage end due to infidelity with broken hearts on both sides. Maybe you should consider sticking to your original plan to finish waiting out the year...


The time invested is the only thing that plagues my thoughts. To be honest, I don't think my wife would cheat again but I gave her a chance to lay everything on the table, no matter what, and we could clean the slate and start a new, hopefully better, marriage. I told her this was her one and only chance. She accepted that and then lied to me. I now want out of this asap. No more waiting for the end of the school year so that she and her allies can bombard me with all the reasons we shouldn't split up.


----------



## dubsey

I caught my wife before she actually cheated. She may not have actually gone through with it anyway when the time came, but she was headed down a very slippery slope.

We got divorced. I told her I had no desire to keep an eye on her like that, and this way, she could do what she wanted. That was back in 2013, and we're still essentially together. She has her own place, but we rent it out, and she still lives here. The only real condition I had during divorce that wasn't covered via pre-nup was that she HAD to change her name so people knew we weren't married. 

Once since we divorced, I went out without explaining where I was going, and she asked and was kind of hurt, and I looked at her and said "I never ask you - it's none of my business anymore. This too, is none of your business." She's never asked since.

I was at a bar meeting up with a couple friends to watch hockey, but that's beside the point. Either one of us is truly free to come or go whenever we'd like. Anyway, don't sweat the divorce, at it's core, it's just a legal arrangement for property management.


----------



## manfromlamancha

LJ I never really understood your R in the first place. But this time I am not sure what happened - was it the fact that you asked her if she ever told the POSOM she loved him and she said no and then you found some old emails where she did say she loved him ? Or was it lying by omission ? Or what ?

The fact is that she fvcked many men. Probably told all of them she loved them. But stayed with you. Then you found out about one and then the others. And decided to (rightly) divorce her. Then she applied DB and somehow won you back. And then you found the statements of love in old emails. And now you decide to divorce her. She hasn't done anything new but you think those words of love meant something ? Or was it just finding out about it without her telling you?

I'm trying to understand why you suddenly decided to dump her for this after forgiving her a big sin?


----------



## badmemory

LucasJackson said:


> The time invested is the only thing that plagues my thoughts. To be honest, I don't think my wife would cheat again but I gave her a chance to lay everything on the table, no matter what, and we could clean the slate and start a new, hopefully better, marriage. I told her this was her one and only chance. She accepted that and then lied to me. I now want out of this asap. No more waiting for the end of the school year so that she and her allies can bombard me with all the reasons we shouldn't split up.


LJ,

You sound like you were at at point where you were almost hoping she would screw up. And I think it best for you that she did. At least you can say that you gave her a chance; and not feel burdened about whether you made the right decision to R in the first place.

I had the same thought process when I first decided to R with my WW. But she hasn't screwed up in 5 years and now I don't hope that she does.


----------



## bandit.45

LJ maybe now that she knows you slept with your lady friend she will back off and let the divorce go through without a hassle.


----------



## LucasJackson

manfromlamancha said:


> LJ I never really understood your R in the first place. But this time I am not sure what happened - was it the fact that you asked her if she ever told the POSOM she loved him and she said no and then you found some old emails where she did say she loved him ? Or was it lying by omission ? Or what ?
> 
> The fact is that she fvcked many men. Probably told all of them she loved them. But stayed with you. Then you found out about one and then the others. And decided to (rightly) divorce her. Then she applied DB and somehow won you back. And then you found the statements of love in old emails. And now you decide to divorce her. She hasn't done anything new but you think those words of love meant something ? Or was it just finding out about it without her telling you?
> 
> I'm trying to understand why you suddenly decided to dump her for this after forgiving her a big sin?


Over the years I had always said I might be able to forgive sex but never a love affair. Of course my wife always said I didn't have to worry about either thing happening. I told her the same. At the time I think we both meant it. Loving someone else is the ultimate deal breaker for me. I don't know why. It just is. 

I don't care that she says that it was not real and that she woke up and realized that and that she has zero feelings for him or anyone but me. I totally believe all that to be true. What I also know is that during the time of the A she did tell him she loved him and I believe she meant it. I know her. She wouldn't say it if she didn't mean it.

I didn't discover any emails. I don't do spying or babysitting. The OBS, whom I hadn't talked to in over a year, came across the emails. Her husband had told her also that it was just sex. OBS and I had a lot of talks back then and I told her I think I could get over this if it was just lust. Physical sex and no love. I told her that loving someone else is to me an ultimate and unforgivable betrayal. When she came across the "I love you" emails from my wife to her hubby she thought I'd want to know.

Personally I think things happen for a reason. I don't follow any man-made religion's definition of God but I am a firm believer in the higher power in the universe. I know the universe is not chaos. There's a perfect order to it that people are just too dumb to understand. Heck, look at a picture of the milky way. Anyone who says that was a cosmic accident is just silly. Anyway, I'm in R for just over a month and this woman finds the emails and drops the bomb on me. Coincidence? Not in my book. I've been very successful in life by not ignoring messages from the universe like this. When it speaks, I listen.

It spoke with that recent revelation and it spoke to me this weekend. The D is supposed to happen so it will. I thank God/the universe/whatever for saving me before I had invested years in a false R.

There will be a lot of nasty business ahead, a lot of drama, a lot of arguing, yelling, walking out...but in the end I know it's all going to be good because I'm convinced this is the way it's supposed to be. I got that call for a reason. I got the call from my best friend for a reason. Things that happened this weekend happened for a reason. Cosmic happenstance is a myth.


----------



## becareful2

dubsey said:


> I caught my wife before she actually cheated. She may not have actually gone through with it anyway when the time came, but she was headed down a very slippery slope.
> 
> We got divorced. I told her I had no desire to keep an eye on her like that, and this way, she could do what she wanted. That was back in 2013, and we're still essentially together. She has her own place, but we rent it out, and she still lives here. The only real condition I had during divorce that wasn't covered via pre-nup was that she HAD to change her name so people knew we weren't married.
> 
> Once since we divorced, I went out without explaining where I was going, and she asked and was kind of hurt, and I looked at her and said "I never ask you - it's none of my business anymore. This too, is none of your business." She's never asked since.
> 
> I was at a bar meeting up with a couple friends to watch hockey, but that's beside the point. Either one of us is truly free to come or go whenever we'd like. Anyway, don't sweat the divorce, at it's core, it's just a legal arrangement for property management.


Why does she still live with you? Has she dated since the divorce?


----------



## LucasJackson

bandit.45 said:


> LJ maybe now that she knows you slept with your lady friend she will back off and let the divorce go through without a hassle.


That would really be nice and historically the wife and I always said we'd never do a nasty divorce if our marriage ended. I'd like to believe it'll go smooth but she also swore she'd never cheat or lie to me and she did both. We'll see. This particular person is a sore spot for her. She's always called her my groupie and never liked her. That's ironic because she (my BFF) is the one who introduced my wife and I. My wife was always jealous of her so I did what a married man should do. I told my BFF that we can't be friends anymore because it would be disrespecting my wife. She was very sad by that but respected it and we didn't talk for 20+ years.

Now she's back in my life and that caused my wife to lock herself in a room and cry (loud enough for us all to hear her) for two hours. The cheater mindset is a bizarre thing. How dare my WW be upset that I spent the weekend away with a great lady friend. It's a royal mindf*ck that she has the nerve to act hurt by that. I can tell her a thing or two about hurt.

My life is mine now. I don't compromise or sacrifice for my wife. She's now my WOPO (wife on paper only). Just made that up. I like it. I want out as soon as possible and I want to move on. Split everything 50/50, let the one minor child decide who she wants to live with, and let's get this thing done. 

I'm not grieving, upset, sad, angry, or anything right now. I'm back to feeling good about the future. I had moved on emotionally once and fortunately hadn't come back from that yet during this short joke of an R. I'm not heartless. This thing killed me for 2+ years. I cried, lamented, was so depressed I was suicidal, etc. but you guys didn't see that because I didn't do online relationship sites then. I started looking at them after the wife started DB'ing me and talking about that site. I found this site as a counter to that site. I was a fan of some of you "F that B, get divorced!" posters for a year before I joined. I've seen all your posts and drew strength from them.

I think everything is happening as it's supposed to. New adventures await.


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## becareful2

LucasJackson said:


> I didn't discover any emails. I don't do spying or babysitting. The OBS, whom I hadn't talked to in over a year, came across the emails. Her husband had told her also that it was just sex. OBS and I had a lot of talks back then and I told her I think I could get over this if it was just lust. Physical sex and no love. I told her that loving someone else is to me an ultimate and unforgivable betrayal. When she came across the "I love you" emails from my wife to her hubby she thought I'd want to know.


They're in R but the OBS wants you to know. Why? She knew it'd be a deal breaker for you, so after all this time, why drop the bomb on your attempt at R?


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## LucasJackson

becareful2 said:


> They're in R but the OBS wants you to know. Why? She knew it'd be a deal breaker for you, so after all this time, why drop the bomb on your attempt at R?


She heard we were going to give it a second shot and wanted to make sure I had the full truth. She wasn't holding out on me, she had just recently come across those emails. I can understand that. There were hundreds of emails to sift through. I read them, she forwarded them to me. My wife is so stupid she couldn't see that he wasn't in love with her. He was just telling her what she wanted to hear to keep those pants off. I think so much less of my wife now. I could never respect her again after being talked out of her pants by such a douche.

OBS agreed she couldn't forgive a love affair so since they're continuing R it tells me she believes there was no love on his part or she has given up all her former values concerning infidelity. It could be the latter. She's very financially dependent on her hubby and they have younger children than we do. It would be much harder for her to D than it will be for me.

To be honest, I don't give a sh*t what her motive was for telling me. I think she was inspired by God/the universe to do it to save me from making a big mistake. I'm very thankful for it. My wife was going to take that to the grave because she knew how I felt about it.


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## LucasJackson

manfromlamancha said:


> LJ I never really understood your R in the first place. But this time I am not sure what happened - was it the fact that you asked her if she ever told the POSOM she loved him and she said no and then you found some old emails where she did say she loved him ? Or was it lying by omission ? Or what ?
> 
> The fact is that she fvcked many men. Probably told all of them she loved them. But stayed with you. Then you found out about one and then the others. And decided to (rightly) divorce her. *Then she applied DB and somehow won you back*. And then you found the statements of love in old emails. And now you decide to divorce her. * She hasn't done anything new* but you think those words of love meant something ? Or was it just finding out about it without her telling you?
> 
> I'm trying to understand why you *suddenly decided to dump her for this after forgiving her a big sin*?


-She never won me back. She won a chance to win me back but she blew that chance.

-She has done something new. Lied about the "love" part and was still lying up to the minute I found out.

-I "suddenly" decided to dump her because she broke the terms of the second chance. I was very clear that we had to clean the slate. I had to know every detail no matter what. She decided to lie about the "love" part because she was afraid I wouldn't forgive that and since she knew she would never do anything like this again she figured lying about it was our best chance at staying together and moving forward. She figured wrong.

My advice to everyone reading these posts is....if someone gives you a second chance at anything in life but says you HAVE TO BE 100% HONEST WITH THEM, then be 100% honest with them. Anything less is just stupid.


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## MyRevelation

LJ,

Good updates from the weekend. Nashville is indeed a fun city to clear your head and just ENJOY!!!

Also, I see you're already getting a few of the "don't you dare have any fun" posts ... IMHO, those are to be disregarded. You've already wasted enough of your life trying to pick up the pieces of something you didn't break. From my own experiences, the best way to get over a hurtful, failed relationship is to start truly moving on with your life, and it appears you've taken a solid first step in that direction. Kudos to you, Sir ... for not being one of those who wallows in their hurt and are afraid of living life anew.


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## dubsey

becareful2 said:


> Why does she still live with you? Has she dated since the divorce?


She lives with me because she wants to. She said she'd never betray my trust again, and I mostly believe her. With regard to her dating anyone - I don't believe so, and if she has, it's none of my business, but if she wanted to, I'd hope she'd move out and move on. If I became aware that she was, I'd ask her to go back to her place.

Don't want to thread-jack this anymore, I was simply relaying a bit of my story to say that they can divorce, and still have a relationship. It works.


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## LucasJackson

MyRevelation said:


> LJ,
> 
> Good updates from the weekend. Nashville is indeed a fun city to clear your head and just ENJOY!!!
> 
> Also, I see you're already getting a few of the "don't you dare have any fun" posts ... IMHO, those are to be disregarded. You've already wasted enough of your life trying to pick up the pieces of something you didn't break. From my own experiences, the best way to get over a hurtful, failed relationship is to start truly moving on with your life, and it appears you've taken a solid first step in that direction. Kudos to you, Sir ... for not being one of those who wallows in their hurt and are afraid of living life anew.


Thank you for this post. I really needed it.


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## MyRevelation

LucasJackson said:


> Thank you for this post. I really needed it.


You're very welcome ... just something from the voice of experience that has BTDT.

When's the next journey down I-71?


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## LucasJackson

MyRevelation said:


> You're very welcome ... just something from the voice of experience that has BTDT.
> 
> When's the next journey down I-71?


Conventional wisdom says not any time soon but my heart says as soon as possible, maybe this weekend.


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## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> That would really be nice and historically the wife and I always said we'd never do a nasty divorce if our marriage ended. I'd like to believe it'll go smooth but she also swore she'd never cheat or lie to me and she did both. We'll see. This particular person is a sore spot for her. She's always called her my groupie and never liked her. That's ironic because she (my BFF) is the one who introduced my wife and I. My wife was always jealous of her so I did what a married man should do. I told my BFF that we can't be friends anymore because it would be disrespecting my wife. She was very sad by that but respected it and we didn't talk for 20+ years.
> 
> Now she's back in my life and that caused my wife to lock herself in a room and cry (loud enough for us all to hear her) for two hours. The cheater mindset is a bizarre thing. How dare my WW be upset that I spent the weekend away with a great lady friend. It's a royal mindf*ck that she has the nerve to act hurt by that. I can tell her a thing or two about hurt.
> 
> My life is mine now. I don't compromise or sacrifice for my wife. She's now my WOPO (wife on paper only). Just made that up. I like it. I want out as soon as possible and I want to move on. Split everything 50/50, let the one minor child decide who she wants to live with, and let's get this thing done.
> 
> I'm not grieving, upset, sad, angry, or anything right now. I'm back to feeling good about the future. I had moved on emotionally once and fortunately hadn't come back from that yet during this short joke of an R. I'm not heartless. This thing killed me for 2+ years. I cried, lamented, was so depressed I was suicidal, etc. but you guys didn't see that because I didn't do online relationship sites then. I started looking at them after the wife started DB'ing me and talking about that site. I found this site as a counter to that site. I was a fan of some of you "F that B, get divorced!" posters for a year before I joined. I've seen all your posts and drew strength from them.
> 
> I think everything is happening as it's supposed to. New adventures await.


I think this is great to be resolved, but I wouldn't flaunt your newfound relationship with your bff...in front of your wife. Because once your wife dries her tears, she might really hurt you in a divorce. I've never been married but I've seen people who hook up (almost too) quickly with another person, after their marriages end, and the soon to be divorced spouse really drags out the divorce. 

As a side thought, your wife must have sensed that you and your bff were more than just that, because you slept with her after not seeing her for 20 years, as soon as you became resolved to leave your wife. So, your wife could easily make up a story that you were the bad guy in this, and not her. That you cheated, and not her. Because you're not divorced yet. Be careful.


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## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> I think this is great to be resolved, but I wouldn't flaunt your newfound relationship with your bff...in front of your wife. Because once your wife dries her tears, she might really hurt you in a divorce. I've never been married but I've seen people who hook up (almost too) quickly with another person, after their marriages end, and the soon to be divorced spouse really drags out the divorce.
> 
> As a side thought, your wife must have sensed that you and your bff were more than just that, because you slept with her after not seeing her for 20 years, as soon as you became resolved to leave your wife. So, your wife could easily make up a story that you were the bad guy in this, and not her. That you cheated, and not her. Because you're not divorced yet. Be careful.


I thought she might have liked me way back when but she's the one who introduced me to my wife and was always there as a really good friend. She never tried anything with me, and I didn't try anything with her. Maybe women can tell and that's why my wife didn't like her.

This last weekend after we got to Nashville and retired back to the hotel she basically attacked me and later said she'd wanted to do that since we were 14. I asked why she didn't and she hesitated for a while but finally said because she loved me, was too scared of being rejected, so she gave in to fear and never let me know how she felt. Now we're both much older. She's divorced and when I called her out of the blue to tell her what was going on she said she told herself she wasn't going to let this chance pass by and regret it for another 30 years.

I don't know what the future with her and I don't think we have to worry about that right now. I'm just going to let things unfold naturally but with an open heart/mind. I want to live for myself right now and this woman in my life is part of me doing that.

If my wife wants a nasty divorce then so be it. The law is the law and the most she'll get is half of everything. We've both made really good money for the last couple of decades so there will be no alimony or anything like that. Whoever our DD wants to live with won't need any child support.


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## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> I thought she might have liked me way back when but she's the one who introduced me to my wife and was always there as a really good friend. She never tried anything with me, and I didn't try anything with her. Maybe women can tell and that's why my wife didn't like her.
> 
> This last weekend after we got to Nashville and retired back to the hotel she basically attacked me and later said she'd wanted to do that since we were 14. I asked why she didn't and she hesitated for a while but finally said because she loved me, was too scared of being rejected, so she gave in to fear and never let me know how she felt. Now we're both much older. She's divorced and when I called her out of the blue to tell her what was going on she said she told herself she wasn't going to let this chance pass by and regret it for another 30 years.
> 
> I don't know what the future with her and I don't think we have to worry about that right now. I'm just going to let things unfold naturally but with an open heart/mind. I want to live for myself right now and this woman in my life is part of me doing that.
> 
> If my wife wants a nasty divorce then so be it. The law is the law and the most she'll get is half of everything. We've both made really good money for the last couple of decades so there will be no alimony or anything like that. Whoever our DD wants to live with won't need any child support.


This story reminds me of my now fiance, and we were friends for a few years first, and when my engagement ended a few months ago, he expressed his feelings, and never said it, but I wonder if he thought if he doesn't say something, the opportunity to see what could be...would pass by. I think this is fate between you and this woman.  I believe in that stuff. lol

Best wishes that all goes smoothly.


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## caruso

LucasJackson said:


> Whoever our DD wants to live with won't need any child support.


That's not how the divorce laws work in most if not all states.

Parents cannot decide to "opt out" of paying child support. 

Depending on how old your daughter is, she may not have much say in who she lives with.

If she's over 13 and wants to live with you, then you're probably ok otherwise expect a custody battle.


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## dubsey

unless, you know, they both agree to it...


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## LucasJackson

caruso said:


> That's not how the divorce laws work in most if not all states.
> 
> Parents cannot decide to "opt out" of paying child support.
> 
> Depending on how old your daughter is, she may not have much say in who she lives with.
> 
> If she's over 13 and wants to live with you, then you're probably ok otherwise expect a custody battle.


She's 15 and she can live wherever she chooses. There will be no fight from either of us. As for child support, neither of us would want it from the other. Unless something changes I don't think we'll do a big court thing. It'll be a 50/50 split on assets. I can't imagine what I would be interested in fighting over. She could demand my Harley in the divorce and I'd gladly pass over the keys and then as soon as the proceedings concluded go directly to the nearest Harley dealership and buy another one. I don't get hung up over stuff. I can always get more stuff. She can have everything we own in the house. I just want out. My freedom. That's all I ask at this point.


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## caruso

dubsey said:


> unless, you know, they both agree to it...


Nope, in most states it's not up to the parents whether or not child support is to be paid from one to the other.



LucasJackson said:


> She's 15 and she can live wherever she chooses. There will be no fight from either of us. As for child support, neither of us would want it from the other.


At 15 the courts will probably let her live wherever she chooses unless your ex is successful in making a case that you're a neglectful parent or there's a safety concern or something of that nature.

In most states the courts will not approve the divorce if the language is such that child support is not paid to the residential parent.


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## GusPolinski

*cough*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful2

You had better not be lying to us, Lucas. lol


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## musicftw07

caruso said:


> Nope, in most states it's not up to the parents whether or not child support is to be paid from one to the other.


It is in my state.

Granted, this is three years after the initial divorce when the judgment had to be renewed. But my xWW and I both agreed that no child support was necessary. In fact, she was the one who offered to give up the $400/month I was paying her, 50/50 time (we were doing it in practice for years, but it wasn't on paper), and for us each to be responsible for our own day care costs. It still blows me away to this day.

My lawyer drafted the new judgment, we both signed it, he filed it with the court, and a judge signed it. No court time or anything. Badda-bing, badda-boom.

(I do admit that it may be different when the divorce is actually occurring, but...I don't see why it would be?)


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## caruso

musicftw07 said:


> (I do admit that it may be different when the divorce is actually occurring, but...I don't see why it would be?)


I guess it's one of those state specific things. In my state for sure, a judge will kick back a drafted settlement agreement if it does not contain a provision for child support. But in my state there is no such thing as 50/50. One parent is ALWAYS considered the custodial/residential parent even if the child spends exactly half their time with each parent.


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## dubsey

GusPolinski said:


> *cough*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


dang. hate getting roped in.


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## MattMatt

Due to the status of the OP (I.E. banned) this thread is now closed to new replies.


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