# The Art of Avoiding the Point



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

My Fiancée has developed the art of avoiding the point to a sublime level. I have learnt that it is totally fruitless trying to have a discussion about anything that isn't "happy-shiny".
She could argue for 24 hours straight without ever allowing the original point to be addressed. She is the master at steering away from the subject. It's very impressive.  She has me beat.

Having spent many frustrating hours being the recipient of these techniques, I thought I'd put some of them down on paper - with examples, either real or representative. This is a work in progress, so may change as I remember more. How many of these do you recognise. In yourself, or your SO?

*1*) Take your point and then make an extreme and preposterous example of it to shift the focus to the new version. This has two benefits: Firstly, it is much easier to argue against the extreme version, second, it avoids having to address the original point.
Example: 
"I wish you wouldn't arrange nights out on a Friday night when we're supposed to be travelling to the weekend house. Can't you make it on another day?"
"You want me to stop seeing my friends. You never want me to go anywhere. You're not happy unless I'm in your sight."

*2*) Ignore the actual point of the sentence and latch on to a tangential point, or word in there. Argue that point. Again, shifting the focus away from the original point.
Example:
"Why did you lie to me about that thing the other day? It wasn't very loyal of you."
"Oh, loyal like a dog? I'll lick your hand when I come home. Loyalty is a word you use with dogs. I'm not your dog. Your dog doesn't mind if you don't feed it. She had no food in the bowl this morning."

*3*) Bring outsiders into it as unverified backup. Again, a double whammy here because you're now wondering how it is that she's discussing us with outsiders, yet refuses to discuss it with you. Takes you off at a nice tangent.
Example:
"I think most people would have been upset by what you said the other day."
"No, it's you. Most people wouldn't care. Jenny agrees as well.

*4*) Rarely let you finish a sentence. Butt in as soon as you start talking and inject some preferably random argument/complaint.
This has the double advantage that she doesn't have to listen to what you're saying and the randomness of the butt-in causes you to forget what you were trying to say in the first place. This technique is VERY effective.
Example:
"I think I should be allowed to...[Butt in here]"
"I asked you to phone the people about the roof. You didn't do it. How can I rely on you?"

*5*) Shift the focus of your concerns away from feelings to words and actons.
Example:
"I would like to feel that you do value our time together. You never say. If I ask, you won't tell me."
"OK. Give me the script of what you want me to say, and I'll read it back to you."

*6* Make a fuss about the way the question/point is worded. Argue about the construction of the question/statement and thereby avoid answering it.
Example:
"That's a bit harsh, isn't it?"
"You've just answered your own question. What's the point in asking a question and answering it yourself?"

*7* Answer a modified version of the question you ask. Outline the modified question, and then answer it.
Example:
"I had a great time out with you today. Did you enjoy it?"
"I enjoyed not being at work for a change, yes."

These techniques (and others that I'm probably forgetting right now) make it utterly impossible to have your say. I recognise them as they're being practised. I even point them out, but, of course, a judicial application of any of the above techniques makes it easy to avoid that point too.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

This is why I avoid buying a new car like the plague...it sounds like the techniques the salesmen have tried with me...I will drive my car into the ground before I go through it anytime soon!


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## Leahdorus (Jul 28, 2008)

In your examples, I'm noticing that most of your remarks are comments, not questions. What if you just ask a question that doesn't have a yes/no answer, or leave a remark only about how YOU feel?

1) When on Friday night can we leave for the weekend house?
2) Why did you lie to me about ______?
3) I was upset by what you said the other day.
4) "I think I should be allowed to..." (Butt in here) ---- walk away. Try again another time.
5) I value our time together. How do you feel?

I don't know, I'm just throwing some suggestions out there. It would frustrate me too, if I were in your shoes.


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

^ Good point - especially about number one.
Although I have tried. Still would be better put that way though.

Germane to all this is the following: All questions are taken as interrogations, all statements are taken as attacks.

Ooh, you've just given me number six. I'd forgotten about that. Thank you.  I'll update the original post.


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## Leahdorus (Jul 28, 2008)

She sounds very combative in her replies. Is she like this with everyone or just you?


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Leahdorus said:


> She sounds very combative in her replies. Is she like this with everyone or just you?


Me and her daughter. Sweet as anything to friends/strangers. She's worse with her daughter:
Daughter calls (ostensibly to find out when we're coming home, but, like many kids, will "beat about the bush"):

"What are you doing mum?"
"I'm eating pizza."
"When are you coming home?"
"Why are you asking?"
"Just wondering."
"Why are you asking? OK. I'm hanging up now. Bye". Click.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Saxon I commend you for typing out these situations and analyzing them, I think that's great. Leaves no room for guess work. 

Some day I have a feeling you will meet a woman that is emotionally healthy and look back on this time in your life and wonder: "What the hell was I thinking?."


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks Martino. I think you're right (I hope so). I just wish I could click my fingers and reach that point now.

I'd been lulled into a false sense of security because we've had a good few weeks with no bust-ups. Of course, that was purely because I "behaved" and didn't broach any negative subjects.

It's very hard being stifled, so, inevitably, I broke a rule yesterday and brought up a subject from the "off the table" list. I got the full force of the above techniques (all delivered with vitriol) for my trouble.

Basically, the "off the table" list is very easy to maintain. It's anything negative, or that could be construed as negative, toward her, anybody she knows, doesn't know, or even a comment about a scene on the TV. Basically anything that's an opinion.

I can talk about gardening all day long.


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## KSimpson99 (Jul 13, 2009)

When did you post this?

I'm wondering if my wife read this 8 weeks ago and thought it was a "how to" guide.


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

KSimpson99 said:


> I'm wondering if my wife read this 8 weeks ago and thought it was a "how to" guide.


:rofl:


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

so whats a list of your arguing tactics?


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Damn.


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## preso (May 1, 2009)

saxon, you made a humourous thread ! lol


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Blanca said:


> so whats a list of your arguing tactics?


I got nothing.


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Was reminded of number seven. Added to original post.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

The fine art of re-deflection. It takes willpower, and it will tick her off royally, but it's possible to stay on topic.

Depending on what she says, either acknowledge her point, or not, and return to the original question. Rephrase if you have to. 

For example:
"I wish you wouldn't arrange nights out on a Friday night when we're supposed to be travelling to the weekend house. Can't you make it on another day?"
"You want me to stop seeing my friends. You never want me to go anywhere. You're not happy unless I'm in your sight."
"We already had plans for the weekend. I want to be there by 10. So we'll need to be on the road by 8. Does that work?" 

"Why did you lie to me about that thing the other day? It wasn't very loyal of you."
"Oh, loyal like a dog? I'll lick your hand when I come home. Loyalty is a word you use with dogs. I'm not your dog. Your dog doesn't mind if you don't feed it. She had no food in the bowl this morning."
"You're right. Loyal was a bad word. I'm sorry. So why did you lie?"

"I think most people would have been upset by what you said the other day."
"No, it's you. Most people wouldn't care. Jenny agrees as well.
"Yes. It's me. That's the point. *I* was hurt."
(of course here, it's best to avoid the 'most people' thing to begin with)

"I think I should be allowed to...[Butt in here]"
"I asked you to phone the people about the roof. You didn't do it. How can I rely on you?"
"...[pause]...[finish what you were going to say]"

"I would like to feel that you do value our time together. You never say. If I ask, you won't tell me."
"OK. Give me the script of what you want me to say, and I'll read it back to you."
"The script says 'speaks from her heart'. I want to hear the lines in there...in you...to be reassured that you want to spend time with me" 

"That's a bit harsh, isn't it?"
"You've just answered your own question. What's the point in asking a question and answering it yourself?"
*blink*"Well, yes. I do feel it was harsh. But do you?" 

"I had a great time out with you today. Did you enjoy it?"
"I enjoyed not being at work for a change, yes."
"Having a day off is always great. Did you enjoy spending it with me?"

Stick to the original point like a hound dog on a possum.  She'll either finally stop evading, walk away in disgust, or pop you one. This might not be the best thing for marital bliss though. Just sayin'.


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

DownButNotOut :smthumbup: Great replies. Alas, nothing I haven't tried. This is why our "discussions" become so long drawn-out and frustrating. She will simply apply one of the rules to those new replies. It's like a game of cat-and-mouse. A game she is so far better at than me. I like to get to the point and move on, she will resist the point at all costs - and I mean at all costs. I have this feeling the Spanish Inquisitioners would have given up a lot sooner had they come across my Fiancée. 

I've learned that analogy isn't an effective tool either. She'll latch on to a part of the analogy and find a ***** in it, all the time avoiding the point. An actual example from when I asked why she treats me nicely for a few days, and then suddenly start talking to me like a stranger:

Her:
"Why does every day have to be the same? I like change. Do I have to have the same script every day?"

"No, of course not. But there are some things that are basic and shouldn't be changed just for the sake of change. Basic kindness is one of them.
Change other things. Wear a different dress or something, but treating someone with kindness shouldn't be "on and off" just for the sake of a change.
As much as you may like to change everything, there are some things we just cannot change. We all have to breath, for instance. We can't change that. We can't just stop that because we'd like it to be different."

"Some people are on oxygen machines."


That was the end of that conversation. I had absolutely no reply.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Saxon,

I like you, you know that. You're trying to analyze and develop a game plan to deal with someone that simply isn't as into having a healthy and normal relationship as you are...what are your future plans with her? are you still engaged? I just don't get it....


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## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi Martino. Thanks for your kind words. Sorry for the huge post, but it gets interesting toward the bottom. 
It is funny you should ask about my future plans. I had a talk with her about that last night. Over the last few weeks, things have been pretty good (because I behaved). This prompted her a few times to bring up the subject of setting the date for the wedding again.

I knew it had to be said, so last night, I told her that although I would love to get married, I would have to be crazy to go ahead with it without being able to trust her, and without us being able to successfully hold a conversation without it becoming an argument. By trust her, I mean trusting that she will no longer lie and hide things from me, and also trust her with my feelings.

I then asked why exactly she wanted to get married. It didn't seem to gel with the massive independent streak she has. Surely, being married would make her feel even more restricted?
She then said that she was doing it because I wanted to. 
I don't believe that because I have ardently avoided the subject so much lately, that it must have been obvious I had extreme reservations about the idea. It would have been extremely easy for her to let the subject drop. I never bought it up. She always did.
I then said that we should not get married then. 
If ever I was to get married again, it would be because somebody wanted to marry me, not because they think it would make me happy (much like the "terms of endearment" thread way back when I first came to this forum).
Just like it is not the same thing to use terms of endearment with people just because they like to hear it, it requires far more of a reason to marry than just because one partner thinks it's what the other one wants.

As I say, I don't actually believe that was the reason she wanted to get married, but I know it's the only explanation I'm going to get. Anything else would be showing a genuine desire - and therefore a weakness in her eyes. 
Actually, quite early on in the relationship, we were at a jewellery store looking for a gift for somebody else, and she got the credit card out and bought our wedding bands!

Later on, I asked again whether the only reason she was contemplating marriage was because she thought it would make me happy. This time she answered no. 
I didn't have the energy to pursue it any further and she needed to get some sleep, so I let it drop at that.

So, I guess that's where we are with that. Wherever that is! I'm pretty used to this state of limbo now, so I can let it drop.

Now at the risk of making this a huge post, to address this:


> I just don't get it...


I absolutely don't blame you. I don't get it either, and neither does anybody that knows a little about the situation.

I have to give a little preamble to what is coming up: My ex-wife and I got divorced about four years ago. She was/is the exact opposite of my current relationship. She is so very caring, genuine, affectionate, warm, loyal. I simply haven't got a bad word to say about the lady. The actual divorce was down to problems between her son and I and stresses from external issues (including a murder in the family).
Since the divorce, she has been having the hardest time coping with the loss of us. Indeed, we tried for a year to reconcile. It was my fault. I just couldn't commit to it again. She still hasn't got over it.

When things were particularly bad with my current relationship, she contacted me again. My brother, out of concern, had spoken to her. Although she really did still want us back, she was showing genuine concern for my current situation and simply couldn't understand why I was putting up with it. She didn't recognise who I had become.

I stopped contact with her again a month or so ago (it was only ever talk about the mess I was in). My current knew about the contact, and I stopped it because it didn't seem appropriate.

Today, she wrote to me again. I will quote some of the lines from it. It is obviously clouded by personal bias, but there is a message in there nonetheless:

"_I have been going for therapy. I'm seeing a fantastic (highly recommended) doctor. He's a psychologist and professor of psychiatry...not some airy, fairy counselor. I needed to understand what had happened. I needed to make sense out of the whole horrendous situation...what you had become...how you could sell your soul...and be your organ grinder's trained, little monkey, without self respect, principles, or standards._"

"_Anyway, it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. He has helped me understand so much. The reason why I am contacting you is that I lost count the number of times he said you were very ill. The best part of me feels you deserve angst, unfulfilment, and misery every second for the rest of your life. But I feel it would be remiss of me, as he said you were in serious mental health trouble, not give you the opportunity to hear what he had to say..and he said quite a few very interesting things. (In fact, I think I should send you the bill.) It is likely that as you have gone back with her, that you are not interested in getting well, and you wouldn't want to hear what he told me...and I don't suppose you are allowed to phone me...but if you do want to hear what he had to say, give me a call._"

I guess she is referring to the fact that I am still plugging away at this unfulfilling relationship. Something you have wondered about many times. I think there is more than a little truth in there. I have to question why I am doing so. Why I can't break free.

This is something I have to think about. I have to question why I don't seem to think I deserve better. I don't know. I need to find out.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Damn dude patch up with your ex and her son. Let that little sociopath you are with go. Sorry had to say it...keep me updated dude!.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm with martino.

Drop the fiance like a bad habit. (which at this point sounds about right)

Whether you get back with your ex or not, you don't really have anything invested in this woman. You can't talk to her. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by ending it.


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## karajh (Jul 25, 2009)

It is just my opinion.. but this relationship is not going to last if you get married. It sounds like she has some emotional problems ...


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## KSimpson99 (Jul 13, 2009)

"Maybe you should start replying to her defensive outbursts with totally unrelated stuff just to mess with her head. Ex: Her: "Why do you never listen to what I have to say?" You: "Yeah, well I hate broccoli!" She may just lose her train of thought and shutup! "
-Mommy22 - that's classic.

The other replies are great, but they all still depend on logic, reason and common sense - things that just seem to get more and more rare as the days go by.

Next argument:
Me: "Why are you out on the patio at 3 in the morning texting on your iphone?"
Her: "You can't tell me what to do - stop trying to control me"
Me: "I hope the squirrels carry you away and make you their leader, worshipping you the way that only squirrels know how. What's for lunch?"

This could be fun...


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## preso (May 1, 2009)

I'd like to hear the other side of the story, saxons wifes view ! lol


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## NothingMan (Jul 16, 2009)

KSimpson99 said:


> "Maybe you should start replying to her defensive outbursts with totally unrelated stuff just to mess with her head. Ex: Her: "Why do you never listen to what I have to say?" You: "Yeah, well I hate broccoli!" She may just lose her train of thought and shutup! "
> -Mommy22 - that's classic.
> 
> The other replies are great, but they all still depend on logic, reason and common sense - things that just seem to get more and more rare as the days go by.
> ...


I like this idea. In fact, lets go a step further. I say you go buy some shrooms. Eat a bunch of em, wait for em to kick in, THEN have discussions with her. I predict hilarity and nonsense will ensue and when your done she will think your clinically insane.

Definately use the squirrel line. Its a winner.


John


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