# Does everyone feel guilty for cheating?



## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

Married Husband here. With my wife for 20+ years. Both of us are in our 40s. No children together. I'm coming to the conclusion that our marriage has to end. Haven't expressed this to my wife yet, but once I talk to the lawyer and figure out a plan of action I will. 

Our marriage has been at times incredibly messy. We've separated on multiple occasions. Including once 16 years ago when she ended up pregnant by another man - we weren't together at the time but...... I've helped support that child financially for the last 15 years. I did not adopt it though and I am not its father. 

As far as I know she has been faithful in our marriage aside from that, which arguably is infidelity. 

I have been repeatedly unfaithful. And I haven't really felt much of any guilt for my actions. I'm taking recall of past events and if my memory serves me right I've had, 

8 affairs of varying lengths in the last 10-12 years. 
4 One night stands
And visited escorts on 25+ occasions

As well as gone on romantic dates with other women. A bunch of other "incidents" of cheating but no sex. 

I honestly do not feel guilty for any of my actions. Is that a deficiency in my character? My wife and I live almost separate lives. I travel frequently and for long periods of time for work. During the "season" I live 3 hours away for much of the week. So it was never difficult to conceal anything. And my wife is not a jealous woman. I honestly do not think she would be that bothered if she knew. She doesn't know anything though. 

No plans on confessing or anything of that sort. My question is in the title. Does everyone feel guilty for cheating? I'm a well adjusted person and successful and well liked and I do not feel like an abomination. Yet just reading this forum cheaters are seemingly considered to be that. Just looking for some feedback into my situation. Also please no comments about my wife's child. No desire to discuss that any further. I've had a couple other threads that have been hijacked with questions about that topic. 

Thanks, 

M11


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Member 11 said:


> I honestly do not feel guilty for any of my actions. Is that a deficiency in my character?


Yes it is. Normal people feel guilt for repeatedly betraying someone they supposedly love. You sound like a psychopath, or perhaps a sociopath. Have you ever had a psychiatric evaluation?


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

M11, have you considered that you might have a personality disorder, or be somewhere on the Aspberger's spectrum? It's not normal to engage in that kind of double life for that long without so much as a pang of WTF am I DOING?! guilt, remorse -- or even a nagging feeling of lacking a moral compass. 

A really good place for you to read would be Dr. George K Simon, Author, In Sheep -- Dr. George Simon's works and his blog. I think the articles could help give you some perspective, as he works with people he calls "character disturbed." Only if you're a true sociopath and you're wired without any empathy, then there's not much hope. But sociopaths don't tend to go in for introspection...

There is emerging science on what are called "callous unemotional" traits -- do a google search on it. It may be that you have hard wiring issues on empathy.

Of course none of that absolves you from your really sh*tty, horrific behavior. You seem totally disconnected in every sense from your wife. And whether she knows or not, and you're sparing her that agony -- you have subjected her to countless STDs and that is unconscionable. The kindest thing you can do is divorce the poor woman and STAY SINGLE. 

Unless she's also disordered and a sociopath -- I promise you, she would be MORE than "bothered." She'd be devastated. Read on this and other boards. People are shattered by infidelity. Destroyed. It's not a big WTFever shrug. 

Get yourself checked out. Read Dr. Simon.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Are you perhaps 'paying her back' by being made pregnant by another man and you being expected to pay for raising his child?


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Sounds like the both of you have had your share of getting busy.

Could be your utter lack of guilt is grounded in the nature of the 'relationship' the 2 of you seem to have crafted. Which - I would guess... is rather atypical. 'separate lives' and so on.

the only thing that strikes me... is that you both have invested a fairly large portion of life on this - and I never take joy in seeing such a tragedy unfolding.

Yeah - most people feel guilty.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Are you perhaps 'paying her back' by being made pregnant by another man and you being expected to pay for raising his child?


He should still feel guilty though.

I really think you need to 1) get tested for STD's and 2) become single and stay that way. Oh, and 3) see a psychiatrist.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

It is not a deficiency in character. Should i assume the OP did all this AFTER the fact that his wife stepped out of marriage and became pregnant? Her actions showed she was not serious about her vows, her dedication to her husband/family and to her husbands honor as a man by her being faithful. Op may have though "how serious i take my marriage comittment if my wife took it easy to cake eat."

In all seriousness as a single lad, if i had a gf that was messing around, either id mess around or dump her. Since you are married the begging question is why be married if youre livjng the single life? Tax deductions? Just confess and tell her all the facts and see is she actually cares. Most cheaters dont like being cheated on. I am sure she has har her cake and ate plenty too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

With all that side action why be married ?? I would think that most normal people would feel guilty or at least have a conscience


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks for the quick replies. 



> Yes it is. Normal people feel guilt for repeatedly betraying someone they supposedly love. You sound like a psychopath, or perhaps a sociopath. Have you ever had a psychiatric evaluation?


I have not been evaluated before. I do not think I am a sociopath or a psychopath. Granted, I have little experience with what that entails. No violent tendencies. I'm successful in my career. I think I can be incredibly caring and loving. So my gut feeling is that it doesn't fit. But I have to do my research. 

I do not think I've loved my wife for a number of years. When we were madly in love, I never cheated on her. 



> M11, have you considered that you might have a personality disorder, or be somewhere on the Aspberger's spectrum? It's not normal to engage in that kind of double life for that long without so much as a pang of WTF am I DOING?! guilt, remorse -- or even a nagging feeling of lacking a moral compass.
> 
> A really good place for you to read would be Dr. George K Simon, Author, In Sheep -- Dr. George Simon's works and his blog. I think the articles could help give you some perspective, as he works with people he calls "character disturbed." Only if you're a true sociopath and you're wired without any empathy, then there's not much hope. But sociopaths don't tend to go in for introspection...
> 
> ...


I have not considered that I am disordered as a possibility. I suppose its possible but I think not. I will read the article you linked and get back to you. Thank you for the recommendations. 

Very disconnected from my wife. No argument. 

I honestly do not think she would be devastated. I haven't been that sneaky. I've had affairs with people she knows. I think she must know something is up and I think she has decided to be wilfully ignorant. We aren't that connected so I do not think it would be a betrayal of great magnitude. It isn't as if we are deeply in love and I went and cheated on her while things were rosy at home. Someone suggested our marriage was a business arrangement in one of my previous threads and that is very apt description. 



> Are you perhaps 'paying her back' by being made pregnant by another man and you being expected to pay for raising his child?


I chose to stay and I've known from day its not my child. Which in retrospect was a mistake. So expect is probably too harsh of terminology; I made the piss-poor decision to stay. 

That said I have enormous resentment towards that child being conceived. I would be lying if that didn't play a factor in this. I think to me, it gives me a free pass of sorts. Nothing I do can be as bad as being impregnated by someone else.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

chumplady said:


> It's not normal to engage in that kind of double life for that long without so much as a pang of WTF am I DOING?! guilt, remorse -- or even a nagging feeling of lacking a moral compass.


Chumplady is correct. I went through pretty much what you're going through, and I can tell you it ain't right. Like me, you're basically an addict. And like most addicts, you will walk over anyone to satisfy that hunger. What got you there is beside the point at this juncture; that will come later. I can tell you this, the urge is like the Terminator, it will never stop until you're dead. It like the Lou Christie song,

If she gives me a sign
That she wants to make time 
I can't stop 
I can't stop myself
Lightning is striking again
Lightning is striking again
And again and again and again

At best, and the good news is, you can control it.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

ok so 2 wrongs make a right there are not varying degrees of cheating you cheated more than i did so as payback i am going to

8 affairs of varying lengths in the last 10-12 years. 
4 One night stands
And visited escorts on 25+ occasions

seems a little much as far as getting even dont ya think ???


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

I think you answered your own question. You cheated, you feel no guilt or remorse. 

Serial Cheater. 

Do Serial Killers feel remorse? 

Nope.


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

> With all that side action why be married ?? I would think that most normal people would feel guilty or at least have a conscience


Inertia. The last few years have become very comfortable. Incredibly boring but it is nice to have that safe place to go. My wife is still probably my closest friend. With my career it is very helpful to have a family. My wife has helped me a lot with that. And the perception of a nuclear family is one that can only help. I've had my reasons for staying. 



> It is not a deficiency in character. Should i assume the OP did all this AFTER the fact that his wife stepped out of marriage and became pregnant? Her actions showed she was not serious about her vows, her dedication to her husband/family and to her husbands honor as a man by her being faithful. Op may have though "how serious i take my marriage comittment if my wife took it easy to cake eat."
> 
> In all seriousness as a single lad, if i had a gf that was messing around, either id mess around or dump her. Since you are married the begging question is why be married if youre livjng the single life? Tax deductions? Just confess and tell her all the facts and see is she actually cares. Most cheaters dont like being cheated on. I am sure she has har her cake and ate plenty too.


Its a fair point. The cheating was after her fling while we were separated. She embarrassed me and took something away from me. I'll never forgive her for that. Technically what she did was okay since we were together but it takes a special type of woman to go get pregnant by someone else while legally married to someone. A separation doesn't mean you have kids with another man. Like I said earlier. Incredible, indescribable resentment from that. 

I've looked to see if she is cheating. I don't think so. But I'm not at home that much and there is certainly opportunity for her to mess around. If she did, not the end of the world but I'd be disappointed. I lost the right to complain about cheating a long time ago. 



> Could be your utter lack of guilt is grounded in the nature of the 'relationship' the 2 of you seem to have crafted. Which - I would guess... is rather atypical. 'separate lives' and so on.
> 
> the only thing that strikes me... is that you both have invested a fairly large portion of life on this - and I never take joy in seeing such a tragedy unfolding.


We have an atypical bond for married couples. Its not as close as most marriages so I think it might be fair to assume my lack of guilt comes from the lack of closeness in our marriage. 

Right now, I just realized we have incompatible views on our futures. I've accepted that a divorce has to happen. Its something I've flirted with for many years but I'm ready to move on now.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

I feel remorse but I do not feel guilty about cheating on my wife. It happened and if i could take it back to take away the pain I caused her I would. But for any other reason I would not.

Here's a little definition of guilt vs remorse that I really liked.

Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.

A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).

Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.

Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.

Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.

Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.

Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".

Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".

Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.

Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.

Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.

Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.

Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.

Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.

Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.

Guilt leads to self hatred.

Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.

Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.

BTW, I'm just curious how you refer to the child as "it" instead of her or him. IMO, this marriage was done long ago (16 years ago when she had another man's child). Why you stuck around, only you can answer that and why you're still there, again only you can answer that.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

So you've decided against adopting then? Good choice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

> So you've decided against adopting then? Good choice!


Decided against doing so with my wife. I tried to update my previous thread. We had a talk and she didn't seem overly interested in the idea. So I dropped it. I do not want her force her and our marriage is already not the strongest or healthiest. 

Its very important to me that children happen but it will be in the future with someone else. I am 44 right now so time is running against me. Hopefully kids happen sooner than later. But that is not the topic of this thread.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Certainly not my STBXW!*


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Member 11 said:


> That said I have enormous resentment towards that child being conceived. I would be lying if that didn't play a factor in this. I think to me, it gives me a free pass of sorts. *Nothing I do can be as bad as being impregnated by someone else.*


Uhhh wanna bet? How about impregnating one of your mistresses or the escorts? And then expecting your wife to be in that child's life? No, I know, she doesn't expect anything from you regarding her daughter. But the same principle applies. Her getting pregnant by another guy = you getting another woman pregnant.

And yes, I can say with certainty that I feel remorse for cheating on my husband. And he feels remorse for cheating on me. Neither of ours were physical, but they hurt just the same. If someone wants to remain married, it is not normal to NOT feel guilty for cheating. It is not normal to NOT feel remorse for it.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I cheated in my marriage, twice. And I feel very little guilt over it. My wife had shut down our sex life long before I cheated. My only real regret is that I feel like I lost some of my ethics and morality by doing that, and now if I start another relationship, I'll have to admit to doing something that I'm not proud of and that someone I might want a relationship may judge me (rightfully so) for.

In my opinion, you checked out of your marriage long ago, and likely haven't loved your wife in a "marriage way" for that time. And that's why you have no guilt. Would you feel guilt towards your housekeeper or maid for having sex with someone, no matter how much you liked that "staff"? I'd guess not.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

So, OP, you come to a forum to tell everyone that you feel no guilt. 

Riiight. 

I think you do feel guilt, but have suppressed it.

It's possible your wife engineered the separation to have an affair, got pregnant and ran back to hubby to fix it all.


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## rfAlaska (Jul 28, 2011)

"I'll never forgive her for that.". If that is TRULY how you feel, move on. The marriage will never be more than a relationship of pure convenience. There will never be any love ever again. All you're doing is marking time.

You seem to enjoy the single life a lot as you have no boundaries. Think really, really hard before getting married again. I don't see a way for you to leave the lifestyle you have and enter a committed relationship with significant boundaries.

Leave her, now.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow, you really need to work on your online presentation buddy.

You became crystal clear when you twice referred to the child you raised for the last fifteen years as an "it" and I had not even read your scoreboard yet. Does "it" know you aren't "its" father? I hope so.

Do "it" and "its" mother a favor and divorce her.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Falene said:


> Wow, you really need to work on your online presentation buddy.
> 
> You became crystal clear when you twice referred to the child you raised for the last fifteen years as an "it" and I had not even read your scoreboard yet. Does "it" know you aren't "its" father? I hope so.
> 
> Do "it" and "its" mother a favor and divorce her.


Yes, SHE knows that he is not HER father. And yes, SHE knows he doesn't accept HER as his child. Had that discussion in his other thread. He didn't want to talk about it though, because the thread wasn't about his wife's daughter... it was all about him.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Member 11 said:


> Married Husband here. With my wife for 20+ years. Both of us are in our 40s. *No children together.* I'm coming to the conclusion that our marriage has to end. Haven't expressed this to my wife yet, but once I talk to the lawyer and figure out a plan of action I will.
> 
> Our marriage has been at times incredibly messy. We've separated on multiple occasions. Including *once 16 years ago when she ended up pregnant by another man - we weren't together at the time but...... I've helped support that child financially for the last 15 years. I did not adopt it though and I am not its father. *



The bold.

Staying and raising another man's child broke you, I would think.

Since you supported the child already for the last 15 years, I believe the courts would look at you as the child's legal father no matter what and make you responsible for him/her till the child is 18 or 20+ years old.

Given all that has happened thus far, it may be better for you to divorce and move on. I think when you do divorce, you should let your wife and her child know why you are moving on - all your warts and her affair. This full confession should help ease your conscience somewhat and hopefully your 2nd marriage will be better.


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

aug said:


> \
> Given all that has happened thus far, it may be better for you to divorce and move on. I think when you do divorce, you should let your wife and her child know why you are moving on - all your warts and her affair. This full confession should help ease your conscience somewhat and hopefully your 2nd marriage will be better.


I agree that a divorce should happen, and very quickly. However, I don't think a full confession will help his conscience because as he said, he doesn't feel guilty. 
I also think he should confess, only to make it easier on her. She has a past, yes... But he knows the full details...he should give her the same respect, so that she doesn't think she's losing a perfectly comfortable - if not happy - marriage for nothing. 
And so that she can get tested for STDs immediately.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Read some of your other posts.

After 15 years you still resent the child and your wife. So, divorce.

It's not the child's fault at all. After your divorce, connect with her and be a decent surrogate father. No matter what, she had you as a "father" for all her 15 years of life. Be a father, after the divorce, to her. Dont let your anger fvck up a young girl's future. In return, you may just learn about forgiveness for an innocent victim.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

So Sad Lady said:


> I agree that a divorce should happen, and very quickly. However, I don't think a full confession will help his conscience because as he said, he doesn't feel guilty.
> I also think he should confess, only to make it easier on her. She has a past, yes... But he knows the full details...he should give her the same respect, so that she doesn't think she's losing a perfectly comfortable - if not happy - marriage for nothing.
> And so that she can get tested for STDs immediately.


No, I dont believe it will relieve his full conscience. But he does owe his wife the full confession. And a full confession is a good step in reclaiming his soul.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> She embarrassed me and took something away from me. I'll never forgive her for that. Technically what she did was okay since we were together but it takes a special type of woman to go get pregnant by someone else while legally married to someone. A separation doesn't mean you have kids with another man. Like I said earlier. Incredible, indescribable resentment from that.


This. Anger is an horrible adviser. We use anger to justify the unthinkable. So you were void of empathy for her and used anger to betray yourself. Once you crossed that boundarie instead of thinking hard about you were doing, coming clean and deal with all it if you rationalized your behavior, justified yourself. That's the way people become serial cheater. "once a cheater always a cheater" is not always truth, it becomes so becuse you justified (=lied) yourself. The rest is history. As this "recreational drug" didn't interfered you day to day life well... why stop? What could stop you was your conscience but it was clouded by resentment to feel entitled.
Once you rationalized it it was not difficult to keep doing it. You become insensitive to any potential moral call.
Of course it also had the cost of detaching definitely from your wife because cheating create walls, secrets kills intimathy. The logistics of you work didn't help enother but is the resentment (re - sent, re-live) you chose to feed to justify yourself your continued cheating what killed any chance of a meaningfull relationship. This need to justify yourself makes me believe you not only created that wall with your wife but increased the emotional distance with "her" son. Sorta positive feedback loop.

Obviously disturbing is cheating with her friends, it's sounds way beyond the original "f0ck all" but more an obvious passive agressive, revengeful, blatant "f0ck you".

I'm sorry you are so lost, you are, right? When you are asking yourself why you don't feel any guilt being an habitual liar, with no self respect nor integrity and it doesn't phase you at all... well you know you are lost.

I also suspects you wife "knows" somthing. Probably the lifestyle plus her "original sin" makes her stay. At least untill "her" son will go away. Why stay with a serial cheater being a empty nester? She can then consider helself punished enough.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Yes, SHE knows that he is not HER father. And yes, SHE knows he doesn't accept HER as his child. Had that discussion in his other thread. He didn't want to talk about it though, because the thread wasn't about his wife's daughter... it was all about him.


I missed that thread though I can't read them all. I am glad I did. This one almost gave me a stroke.

...

Member 11, if you addressed this and I missed it, I apologize. I am curious why you continued to be married to your wife if you were so resentful of her daughter? I am assuming it was your opportunity to get revenge via your affairs?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Falene said:


> I missed that thread though I can't read them all.  I am glad I did. This one almost gave me a stroke.
> 
> ...
> 
> Member 11, if you addressed this and I missed it, I apologize. * I am curious why you continued to be married to your wife if you were so resentful of her daughter?* I am assuming it was your opportunity to get revenge via your affairs?


He did address it in his other thread:



Member 11 said:


> I have no illusions as to why she reconciled. There are benefits to staying with me, namely money and security. I did the best I could to put some distance. I never adopted her child. Not on the birth certificate. Biological father ordered to pay child support.
> 
> I did need her because soon after I ran for office. Where we live, things like family do matter. So I did get some benefits out of having the appearance of a happy family.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You asked:



Member 11 said:


> My question is in the title. Does everyone feel guilty for cheating?


You answered: 



Member 11 said:


> I honestly do not feel guilty for any of my actions.


I'm not sure what the point of this thread was.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Member 11 said:


> She embarrassed me and took something away from me. I'll never forgive her for that. Technically what she did was okay since we were together but it takes a special type of woman to go get pregnant by someone else while legally married to someone.


You could have just as easily knocked up some other woman during your separation and thereafter during all of your affairs, ONS, etc. 



Member 11 said:


> A separation doesn't mean you have kids with another man. Like I said earlier. Incredible, indescribable resentment from that.


Eh. Look, I appreciate you feeling completely sickened by her actions, but you also had a choice in the matter. You say this happened in Year 4 of your marriage...and now you've been married 20+ years. Look, you could have walked and gotten a divorce at any time and not have raised the child.

You had a choice.

You chose to stay with someone who you hate/resent. 

That is on you.

Many other men would have filed for divorce right then and there and have been done with this while they were still young and the marriage was relatively new. 

So be resentful all you want but at the end of the day, you chose to stay with her and raise that child. 

You had a choice in the matter.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Member 11,

I can tell you that what you did was a form of you coping with your wife's infidelity. Most people on here divorce after infidelity, most enter false reconciliation and some like you have their emotion, care, love die. The dedication, comittment, loyalty, is gone, your wife ruined it, although it does not justify your actions but thats the way you chose too cope.

Don't listen to the statements that you have a disorder, or a deficiency. Your wife broke you and now you need to fix yourself. Focus on yourself and that means stop sharing yourself with other women. Exercise, start thinking positive. You are a man in my book.for raising a child that is not yours for whatever reason (i assume you know for sure) when a few weeks ago most men will hit the ground running so fast. 

Typical cheaters use seperation as a form to free base their addiction without any flak from their spouses. I am being arrogant in assuming that your wife had her fun, got pregnant, probably got ditched by the other man and since you asked to take her back she took you as plan b. Thats a crappy feeling. After rehinking your actions you may feel regret of what you should have done, youve been held back, it seems as though you settled for living that way by taking your own form of escape. Completely understandable, but now you must improve yourself, you must become a new 44 man, one that exercises, one that eats lean and super healthy with plenty of fruts and vegetables, take vitamins and minerals, sleep well every night you can. The farther apart you drift from your wife the more thoughts you will have of what you should have done but more kmportant what should you do. The healthier your diet, the better your exercise, the better your body, your mind to make a good decision. Any decision is good as long as your mind is set for it, decide and let the dopamine drive you towards your goal.

You can do this, start now, dont think, just do, kmprove yourself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

> I'm not sure what the point of this thread was.


I know I don't feel guilty over my actions. *I was asking if anyone else felt that way.* That is the point. Its in the damn title. 

If my thread is that irksome, feel free not to read or post. 

I don't mean this to sound argumentative but I made the thread. I had my reasons. You don't have to agree with them or understand my reasons. Again as far as I know there is no stipulation you have to read or post. 

I've enjoyed lurking and reading for quite some time so I thought I would jump in and post my story. I want some neutral thoughts and outside perspectives. I don't expect everyone to agree or understand me. I don't know why you came in like a Sheriff, Jellybeans and tried to shut down my thread.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The only person sounding "irked" is you.

When you post on an open forum (cue the band), you should expect to get all kinds of opinions on your thread topic.

If you don't like it, you also don't have to read the comments.

Win-win. 

As far as your thread topic--you asked does *"everyone"* feel guilty for cheating. But by your own admission, you already answered, no, not everyone does feel guilty.

I think most people do though (to what degree or why is different for each person).


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Member 11 said:


> I know I don't feel guilty over my actions. *I was asking if anyone else felt that way.* That is the point. Its in the damn title.
> 
> If my thread is that irksome, feel free not to read or post.
> 
> ...


You want neutral thoughts? In Coping With Infidelity? You asked a bunch of people who are dealing with the ramifications of infidelity, whether they (or their spouses) feel guilty? And you didn't expect the responses you got when you admitted that you feel no guilt nor remorse? Really? 

Jellybeans isn't trying to shut down your thread. She's just one who doesn't take BS from anyone... that includes, but not limited to, wayward spouses who are not remorseful. And that same sentiment comes from those of us who have been on the betrayed side as well as those of us who cheated and ARE remorseful about it.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Sounds to me like you guys were married on paper only; you didn't have a real marriage from the start. In light of that, that's why you don't feel guilty; it wasn't really cheating (figuratively).


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Member 11,

You have to understand that most members in this section of the forum have been betrayed and your quasi BS (betrayed spouse) / WS (wayward spouse) position makes it really complicated.

If we were to view your actions of cheating alone, they would be disgusting, if you were single, then maybe that as anything else could possibly be, subjective to the reader. What most fail to see is the type of coping you involved yourself in. There are many recommendations given here that will give you certain ways/methods to detach and think clearly and focus on yourself, albeit yours was a more selfish and irresponsible form of coping.

What is done is done, the past is gone, and now you must improve and change. Your wife may or may have not cheated but that does not change the fact that you will decide to change yourself and I would definitely consider confessing to your wife in the near future when you gain enough, physical and mental confidence and have been pondering in thought about your actions in response to what she may say or do.


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> You want neutral thoughts? In Coping With Infidelity? You asked a bunch of people who are dealing with the ramifications of infidelity, whether they (or their spouses) feel guilty? And you didn't expect the responses you got when you admitted that you feel no guilt nor remorse? Really?
> 
> Jellybeans isn't trying to shut down your thread. She's just one who doesn't take BS from anyone... that includes, but not limited to, wayward spouses who are not remorseful. And that same sentiment comes from those of us who have been on the betrayed side as well as those of us who cheated and ARE remorseful about it.


I have no issue with harsh responses. I think you know that, since you were active on my prior thread. I never took issue with anything that was said. I almost enjoyed the back and forth. 

My issue was the questioning of my reasoning for posting the thread and suggesting I shouldn't have posted it. Its just not a nice thing to do. Why respond to someone's thread and say you shouldn't have posted it? 

Let me also be clear, I have no issue with anything anyone has said. I fully expect and understand people that may not like me for cheating. I'm not asking anyone to censure themselves.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

*Member11,*

I don't appreciate your private messages to me. They are unnecessary and rude. 

Do not message me again. Thanks. 



Member 11 said:


> Take your arrogant, *****y attitude away from my threads. Thanks


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

*Jellybeans,*

I don't appreciate you posting on my thread. Your attitude is arrogant and condescending.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Jellybeans isn't trying to shut down your thread. She's just one who doesn't take BS from anyone... that includes, but not limited to, wayward spouses who are not remorseful. And that same sentiment comes from those of us who have been on the betrayed side as well as those of us who cheated and ARE remorseful about it.


The OP suffered a big hit years ago. Many cheaters do as well not to feel guilt. Why? They have trained the mind not to feel guilt. When you do something for the first time you feel guilt, its guilty yet exciting yet so wrong. It lessens the more you do it. When a killer kills for the first time, he has guilt, paranoia, remorse, nightmares. What is the easy cure? Killing again, and again, training the mind, the conscious. It is definitely possible. Do not underestimate the power of the mind, especially when you involve (not assuming you are or have only stating) psychotropic drugs and unhealthy eating/living habits, affecting the chemical balance of the mind, dis paring it.

Member 11, focus on the here and now, hic et hunc, when you focus on yourself, you will have more time to think upon your actions because those are the only ones you can account/own and be responsible for. If you ever leave your wife you will realize what a horrible way for you to act after she cheated, you may not think so now but that is understandable. The fact that you questioned here about guilt provides not proof but a thesis that maybe you dealt with things for so long in an ineffective manner. Either way, its done, so work on yourself, its been done many times before.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Member 11,
> 
> I can tell you that what you did was a form of you coping with your wife's infidelity.
> -------------
> ...


Only OP chose to cope by shooting himself in the middle of the chest. So... yes, I was wronged so I thought it was a good idea to lower my own standars to the mud level, so much i don't give a sh1t anymore about it and become an empty soul. It must be nice to have a target to put the blame on. As if your own behavior depends on others, still 16 years later.

CJS is right you should improve yourself by finding again that moral compass - among other things - you lost time ago. 


Another thing is I take every word out of your mouth about your wife and her motivations with a huge grain of salt (as you seem stuck in a permanent "fog"). I sense massive projection (I stayed because it provided a good facade to to climb the corporate ladder so my wife surely went back to me also due such similarly hollow mindset). Truth is as you already admited you are as detached from you biological children as your wife ("her" son should not be named).
Truth is you are detached from yourself. Not feeling guilty about your serial cheating is in my book just a sympton of larger issues.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Member 11 said:


> Married Husband here. With my wife for 20+ years. Both of us are in our 40s. No children together. I'm coming to the conclusion that our marriage has to end. Haven't expressed this to my wife yet, but once I talk to the lawyer and figure out a plan of action I will.
> 
> Our marriage has been at times incredibly messy. We've separated on multiple occasions. Including once 16 years ago when she ended up pregnant by another man - we weren't together at the time but...... I've helped support that child financially for the last 15 years. I did not adopt it though and I am not its father.
> 
> ...




Obviously not everyone as you can attest.

So what exactly is this? A bragging post? "See how many women I nailed? Hur hur hur!"

You are treating your wife like dirt and if you'll treat her in this fashion, you'll treat anyone this way.

If you think it's so okay and don't feel guilty at all, why don't you tell all your married friends about it? Why not tell your parents?

We know the answer to that. You are well liked because no one knows the real you. You are probably successful because you aren't afraid to stab someone else in the back.

You are a fake.


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

I am not qualified to answer the question posed in this thread however if I ever do cheat I'll try to remember to come back here and I'll let you know how I feel about it. 

That much being said I never got the point to cheating. 

If you want to have sex with someone else, why not leave your partner FIRST, then go have sex with the new person?

Seems like a reasonable and mature way to handle it.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Truth is you are detached from yourself. Not feeling guilty about your serial cheating is in my book just a sympton of larger issues.



The premise for OP's past actions is not sound, we know that. Let's get over that stone. As what acabado said, the larger issue at hand is more than likely the inability to get over the fact that your wife was able to do that with ease. "How could she? With such ease she does that to me? With such ease I take her back? What now? Settle to live like this, feel like this?"

Your escape was not a physical escape, it was temporal pleasure, so now realize that you must escape that life you've been living. Do not live the double life, it drains you, literally, physically, emotionally, mentally. It really does BURN you out, physically in the body. Set yourself a different goal, to be a better man and see things differently, more objectively that although what you did is wrong, you can correct yourself, and the only way you can correct and improve yourself is by first realizing what you have done is wrong whether you feel GUILTY about it or not.

There is always room for improvement, try to become perfect, focus on yourself without vanity. To improve yourself for others is not vain or selfish, it is gratuitous.

Now drop down and give me 50


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> The OP suffered a big hit years ago. Many cheaters do as well not to feel guilt. Why? They have trained the mind not to feel guilt. When you do something for the first time you feel guilt, its guilty yet exciting yet so wrong. It lessens the more you do it. When a killer kills for the first time, he has guilt, paranoia, remorse, nightmares. What is the easy cure? Killing again, and again, training the mind, the conscious. It is definitely possible. Do not underestimate the power of the mind, especially when you involve (not assuming you are or have only stating) psychotropic drugs and unhealthy eating/living habits, affecting the chemical balance of the mind, dis paring it.
> 
> Member 11, focus on the here and now, hic et hunc, when you focus on yourself, you will have more time to think upon your actions because those are the only ones you can account/own and be responsible for. If you ever leave your wife you will realize what a horrible way for you to act after she cheated, you may not think so now but that is understandable. The fact that you questioned here about guilt provides not proof but a thesis that maybe you dealt with things for so long in an ineffective manner. Either way, its done, so work on yourself, its been done many times before.


Yea, I got that he suffered a big hit. But it doesn't excuse his behavior. My husband had a mental breakdown and has been unable to work for the last 4 years because of it. I, stupidly, had an EA, which started out as a mere friendship and subtly turned, little by little. I was wrong in my actions. I was wrong in my second one as well. And my husband would be the first to tell you that HE was wrong in doing the same thing I did. But the one thing that my husband and I did, that M11 has not? Removed the affair partners from our lives. It doesn't matter the circumstances of the marriage. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you look at it. Unless the spouse is aware, and gives his (or in this case, HER) "ok" for it... it is wrong, no matter how you try to color it.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Member 11, as JCD and you now you trat your wife, her friends, etc as crap but the real issue here is you don't get you are treating yourself even worse. Good Lord man, learn to love yourself more and better. Find the path and put one foot after the other, baby steps.
You have the power to start living a better life, changing yourself and your circunstances, you always had choices, start choosing better.
It seems you don't give a sh1t about anything anymore.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> Obviously not everyone as you can attest.
> 
> So what exactly is this? A bragging post? "See how many women I nailed? Hur hur hur!"
> 
> ...



Comments like this need to be made with ADVICE, or a SOLUTION to the problem instead of only evading the actual issue and using "ad hominem" as a convincing tactic to get the OP to wake up from the fog. 

If OP were to be a fake, then he needs to kill his faux life/body behind and be the real him, real emotions, real ambitions, and real positive outcomes after he ditches this lifestyle. 

OP needs to be selfish in a good way, with a little self respect, none of those women he cheated with deserved him, and if I may go as far and say that at one point, his wife didn't deserve him either yet he still took her back.

Now OP, what will you do after so long?


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Member 11,

It isn't your cheating, it is you. How you refer to your wife's daughter as "it". That isn't an error, you do it on purpose. I wonder what that poor child has had to put up with from you. Don't say again you support her as though it is a noble act, her bio Dad pays child support as well.

Your open contempt of your wife is mind boggling. You continue KNOWING she is pregnant from another man hating her for it. Then you admit you needed her to run for office (not helping the politician's already bad rep btw) but act as though the child has in some way become tainted for it all.

You being in the cheater group, gives them a bad name. 

I have a question for you. During the separation when your wife got pregnant, did you have sex with anyone? I can't imagine you could stay faithful but stranger things have happened.

You are intelligent, no doubt, but there is something wrong with you. Please seek help and I truly mean that.

Think about it. You could perhaps salvage some life that could possibly have meaning to someone other than yourself.


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## Member 11 (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm sorry for letting this discussion get off topic. It was my mistake to engage the troll. I also apologize for the PM I sent. It was disrespectful and unnecessary. It won't happen again. 



> In my opinion, you checked out of your marriage long ago, and likely haven't loved your wife in a "marriage way" for that time. And that's why you have no guilt. Would you feel guilt towards your housekeeper or maid for having sex with someone, no matter how much you liked that "staff"? I'd guess not.


I think that is the best explanation. I'm not unemotional at all normally. I'm actually a very fiery person. I think I'm just very detached from my wife. So that makes the cheating easier. 



> "I'll never forgive her for that.". If that is TRULY how you feel, move on. The marriage will never be more than a relationship of pure convenience. There will never be any love ever again. All you're doing is marking time.
> 
> You seem to enjoy the single life a lot as you have no boundaries. Think really, really hard before getting married again. I don't see a way for you to leave the lifestyle you have and enter a committed relationship with significant boundaries.
> 
> Leave her, now.


Yes, the plan is to leave and divorce. I just need some time to prepare. Need to hire an attorney and plan out things before I go to her asking for the divorce. But I have no desire to stay in the marriage. 

I do enjoy the single life but I want something real. I want to have a family and be with someone I love. I want to feel again. I think I can be faithful in a committed relationship. The other person just has to be worth it. 



> The bold.
> 
> Staying and raising another man's child broke you, I would think.
> 
> ...


It definitely took something out of me. I would go back and do it differently. I felt sorry for her and I didn't want her to struggle and I thought our love could overcome. If any younger men are in the same situation, LEAVE. 

No, I am not the father in any capacity. The biological father pays child support and is named on the birth certificate. I have no responsibility for her child. 

I don't really have any desire to confess. I'll wait for legal advice before I even consider it. I want to leave this marriage as the good guy. 



> Don't listen to the statements that you have a disorder, or a deficiency. Your wife broke you and now you need to fix yourself. Focus on yourself and that means stop sharing yourself with other women. Exercise, start thinking positive. You are a man in my book.for raising a child that is not yours for whatever reason (i assume you know for sure) when a few weeks ago most men will hit the ground running so fast.
> 
> Typical cheaters use seperation as a form to free base their addiction without any flak from their spouses. I am being arrogant in assuming that your wife had her fun, got pregnant, probably got ditched by the other man and since you asked to take her back she took you as plan b. Thats a crappy feeling. After rehinking your actions you may feel regret of what you should have done, youve been held back, it seems as though you settled for living that way by taking your own form of escape. Completely understandable, but now you must improve yourself, you must become a new 44 man, one that exercises, one that eats lean and super healthy with plenty of fruts and vegetables, take vitamins and minerals, sleep well every night you can. The farther apart you drift from your wife the more thoughts you will have of what you should have done but more kmportant what should you do. The healthier your diet, the better your exercise, the better your body, your mind to make a good decision. Any decision is good as long as your mind is set for it, decide and let the dopamine drive you towards your goal.
> 
> You can do this, start now, dont think, just do, kmprove yourself


Thank you. This post was very encouraging and helpful. I think I need to detox myself of my wife, the affairs, and just move on with my life. I've stuck in this status quo position for far too long. 



> Sounds to me like you guys were married on paper only; you didn't have a real marriage from the start. In light of that, that's why you don't feel guilty; it wasn't really cheating (figuratively).


You know, I think that is the best explanation possible. 



> Another thing is I take every word out of your mouth about your wife and her motivations with a huge grain of salt (as you seem stuck in a permanent "fog"). I sense massive projection (I stayed because it provided a good facade to to climb the corporate ladder so my wife surely went back to me also due such similarly hollow mindset). Truth is as you already admited you are as detached from you biological children as your wife ("her" son should not be named).
> Truth is you are detached from yourself. Not feeling guilty about your serial cheating is in my book just a sympton of larger issues.


Of course. This is my POV. Please do think critically. There are two sides to every issue. I think I am being honest though. 

Also I have no biological children. 



> The premise for OP's past actions is not sound, we know that. Let's get over that stone. As what acabado said, the larger issue at hand is more than likely the inability to get over the fact that your wife was able to do that with ease. "How could she? With such ease she does that to me? With such ease I take her back? What now? Settle to live like this, feel like this?"


I'll never understand the why or how. It was my fault for making such a poor choice in a wife. I have no idea how someone finds it appropriate to get pregnant by someone else when married to another man. And then have the gall to ask and beg their husband to stay. 



> Yea, I got that he suffered a big hit. But it doesn't excuse his behavior. My husband had a mental breakdown and has been unable to work for the last 4 years because of it. I, stupidly, had an EA, which started out as a mere friendship and subtly turned, little by little. I was wrong in my actions. I was wrong in my second one as well. And my husband would be the first to tell you that HE was wrong in doing the same thing I did. But the one thing that my husband and I did, that M11 has not? Removed the affair partners from our lives. It doesn't matter the circumstances of the marriage. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you look at it. Unless the spouse is aware, and gives his (or in this case, HER) "ok" for it... it is wrong, no matter how you try to color it.


Maricha, you love your husband. You have a family together. I think its very different than my situation. I had no incentive to cut "affair partners" out of my life. There was nothing to save. Its not like I would honestly care if my wife found out I cheated on her. There is no bond there. There hasn't been. I wish I was with someone I loved. Someone who I would never want to cheat on, or at least be ashamed if I cheated on. As it stands, I am with someone I have no real feelings of love towards.



> It isn't your cheating, it is you. How you refer to your wife's daughter as "it". That isn't an error, you do it on purpose. I wonder what that poor child has had to put up with from you. Don't say again you support her as though it is a noble act, her bio Dad pays child support as well.
> 
> Your open contempt of your wife is mind boggling. You continue KNOWING she is pregnant from another man hating her for it. Then you admit you needed her to run for office (not helping the politician's already bad rep btw) but act as though the child has in some way become tainted for it all.
> 
> ...


I did ask people on the first post not to bring up my wife's child. Its a sore issue. Nonetheless since you asked... 

The poor child has put up with nothing from me. I've treated her with respect and let her mother and her biological father be her parents. Her biological father hasn't been very involved but I want to stay respectful of his bond with her. Its not my role to be her father. Her bio-father pays occasional child support. I pay for her tuition. I pay for her house. Trust me the measly child support he occasionally pays covers nothing. 

I don't hate her child. I don't bash the child or complain about the child. I don't abuse the child. I have a very distant relationship with her child. We are outwardly pleasant to one another. I don't love her but I certainly don't hate her. I don't think people understand the relationship. Its very difficult to explain. 

I was not faithful during any of our separations. Difference I used protection with the other women. I never finished inside another woman. My wife let some random man finish inside of her while she was married to someone else. I'm sorry to get crude but you asked... My issue is not that she was with another man. I have no place to talk on that front. My issue is she let someone else get her pregnant and kept the pregnancy. 

Anyways, thank you for all of the intelligent, thought-provoking replies.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Member 11 said:


> My issue is not that she was with another man. I have no place to talk on that front. *My issue is she let someone else get her pregnant and kept the pregnancy.
> *
> Anyways, thank you for all of the intelligent, thought-provoking replies.



No. I see your issue is your anger. You are not dealing with your problems in a constructive way. The way you handle your personal issues just compounds the turmoil.

May I suggest you step back, say for 1 year, and do nothing? No sex, no affair. Take a sabbatical. Tune everything out. When your mind settles, reevaluate your life and set a productive goal.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

It seems you are ready to embark on this voyage. I completely understand how you want something real. You've been fooling around for so long that wanting something real is the only way to feel and you feel deep down inside that if you find the right person and dedicate yourself to that relationship and future family you can and you will be faithful. 

I do ever so firmly suggest that you confess to your wife that you have done X Y Z 1 2 3 and that you are divorcing her. No arguments, no complaining;

"I'm doing it because I have had no reason to stay for so long and I can but only question why I had decided to stay for so long all the while deceiving you the whole time. I'm sorry and I hope you can find happiness"


Edit: you can always turn back in case your wife still wants you if it ever comes to that after you confess and mention divorce and you decide to stay, although you could have "re dedicated" yourself before and decided no to so I see no point in trying to R (reconcile) after the unveiling.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Member 11 said:


> I was not faithful during any of our separations. Difference I used protection with the other women. I never finished inside another woman. My wife let some random man finish inside of her while she was married to someone else. I'm sorry to get crude but you asked... My issue is not that she was with another man. I have no place to talk on that front. My issue is she let someone else get her pregnant and kept the pregnancy.


Wait, you *cheated on your wife during the separation and yet point a finger at her for doing the same thing?!?!* You then cheat on her for your entire marriage thinking you are morally superior because you didn't knock someone up? Unbelievable.


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## tonyarz (Sep 15, 2012)

After my wife cheated on me. I decided to have affairs and never once felt guilty about it. If it was ok for her, why not me? I am very suprised you took her back after having a kid with someone else while you were still technically married.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wait, you *cheated on your wife during the separation and yet point a finger at her for doing the same thing?!?!* You then cheat on her for your entire marriage thinking you are morally superior because you didn't knock someone up? Unbelievable.


I will assume you are a woman....

It is a little complicated for men, especially when it involves a child out of wedlock not while single, but while married. I do NO, under any circumstance approve of abortion, yet the only way I can try to understand the OP on why he took his wife back is probably because they have had their share of fooling around and coming back to what you knew/know is a lot easier than getting a D and being "alone" and searching again.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I will assume you are a woman....
> 
> It is a little complicated for men, especially when it involves a child out of wedlock not while single, but while married. I do NO, under any circumstance approve of abortion, yet the only way I can try to understand the OP on why he took his wife back is probably because they have had their share of fooling around and coming back to what you knew/know is a lot easier than getting a D and being "alone" and searching again.


Not sure how my gender enters in to this. The bottom line is he behaved exactly as she did. He doesn't deserve a cookie and a pat on the head for not knocking up the women he was screwing around with. He also stayed married knowing she was pregnant and then lorded it over her and the child for 15 years all while using them to advance his career. Pretty disgusting and gender doesn't matter at all. I'd tell a woman the same thing if a husband knocked up another woman and the kid came to live with them, pointing fingers at the husband and child for actions she herself had done as well. 
OP, get a divorce.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I think the suggestion for divorce is consistent among the posters.

OP does not want to get a divorce -that's getting obvious. I suppose he has too much "worldly goods" to tie him to the marriage. And since his wife most likely knows and doesnt mind, I'm starting to think he made the right decision to stay in the marriage.

Hopefully the 15 year old survive her childhood without too much need for therapy when she grows up.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I will assume you are a woman....
> 
> It is a little complicated for men, especially when it involves a child out of wedlock not while single, but while married. I do NO, under any circumstance approve of abortion, yet the only way I can try to understand the OP on why he took his wife back is probably because they have had their share of fooling around and coming back to what you knew/know is a lot easier than getting a D and being "alone" and searching again.


First off, it is no more complicated for a man than it is for a woman when your SPOUSE creates a child with SOMEONE ELSE, while you are MARRIED. NO DIFFERENT. If my husband were to come to me and say he knocked up another woman, it would be the SAME for me as for him if I got pregnant by someone else. The circumstances are the same. The result is the same. The consequences are the same. This isn't about a man vs woman thing. It is about the double standard that M11 holds his wife to. It's ok for him to go fvck around, potentially exposing her to STDs, but he's going to tell her that she's all sorts of a horrible person because she got pregnant by someone else? That's bullsh!t!

Oh, and he took his wife back because at the time he did, he was running for office and having a family worked highly into his favor...in the public eye. Appearances, you know!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Member 11 said:


> No, I am not the father in any capacity. The biological father pays child support and is named on the birth certificate. I have no responsibility for her child.


And yet, you pay her tuition and, as you said, he pays very little toward her... so really, you are paying the vast majority of her care. Is that right? You may not HAVE the responsibility for your step-daughter, but you have TAKEN responsibility, since the day she was born. Just to clarify...you did get a paternity test to be sure, right? You said the pregnancy was learned AFTER you reconciled from the separation, if I remember correctly...




Member 11 said:


> I'll never understand the why or how. It was my fault for making such a poor choice in a wife. I have no idea how someone finds it appropriate to get pregnant by someone else when married to another man. And then have the gall to ask and beg their husband to stay.


I'll never understand why anyone thinks it's ok to go have sex with someone other than their spouse. But yes, YOU made a bad choice... a decision YOU chose to live with...for over 10 years. YOU decided to stick around because of how it benefited your career. YOU and YOUR WIFE made that decision... your step-daughter did not.



Member 11 said:


> The poor child has put up with nothing from me. I've treated her with respect and let her mother and her biological father be her parents. Her biological father hasn't been very involved but I want to stay respectful of his bond with her. Its not my role to be her father. Her bio-father pays occasional child support. I pay for her tuition. I pay for her house. Trust me the measly child support he occasionally pays covers nothing.
> 
> I don't hate her child. I don't bash the child or complain about the child. I don't abuse the child. I have a very distant relationship with her child. We are outwardly pleasant to one another. I don't love her but I certainly don't hate her. I don't think people understand the relationship. Its very difficult to explain.


You tolerate her presence. And trust me, she picks up on this very easily. She has since she was little. She knows you have no love for her. But from how you described the situation, she knows the same of her biological father. She has a father figure who makes sure her basic needs are met. Even though you are not her father, you are in the ROLE of father, due to the nature of the relationship. You, really, are the only father she knows. You are the man she will use as a model for her future relationships. I hope and pray she chooses someone who is patient and willing to help her work through her issues. Trust me, you may not think she has any, but she does. The man (men) she has in her life, in the ROLE of father, don't love her. That's a hard pill to swallow for ANYONE. Poor child? Yes, she is. Not in material things, but in emotional/relationship.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Member 11 said:


> I think to me, it gives me a free pass of sorts.


Well there you go. You already know what you think. Mission accomplished.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> And yet, you pay her tuition and, as you said, he pays very little toward her... so really, you are paying the vast majority of her care. Is that right? You may not HAVE the responsibility for your step-daughter, but you have TAKEN responsibility, since the day she was born. *Just to clarify...you did get a paternity test to be sure, right? You said the pregnancy was learned AFTER you reconciled from the separation, if I remember correctly...*



Good catch! A paternity test today is a must to rule out any doubt. I bet OP did not do such a test 15 years ago since the test wasnt really available.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> I do enjoy the single life but I want something real.


Well, if you want something real, YOU have to be real.

From everything I read, you've kept your wife, whom you seem to have real contempt for, because she was of USE to you.

However we feel about your wife's "cheating" during separation (were you "cheating"? Dating? Sleeping with people? How fortunate for you that you don't have a uterus and cannot get pregnant...) -- you CHOSE to stay with her. To abide by a commitment you made to her, and to that child.

What you did was hugely passive aggressive -- you didn't abide by the commitment YOU made -- you became a serial cheater instead. But you'd like to divorce and remain the "good guy"? WTF?

I don't care if your wife was Saddam Hussein, you married her and STAY married to her. Your conduct is on YOU. I see a lot of blameshifting of your crap behavior to your wife. She got pregnant, she was the cheater. Implied, she deserves what she gets.

No, she doesn't deserve this.

And if you want real things, with real people, YOU need to be real and not see people as things that are of use to you. (As in, it's helpful to have a wife in your career.) 

That's a spiritual journey -- you need to strip yourself bare and have a good unvarnished look at yourself. 

And getting to the original point of this thread, yes, you should feel guilty or conflicted or ashamed. YES.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

I try to be appreciative of points of view that are contrary to mine, I really do but this is one I have a hard time carrying.

Member 11, 

When you found out your wife was pregnant and you two discussed reconciling did she bring up anything about her unborn child? Such as "How are you going to feel raising another man's baby?" Something along that line? While I am fascinated by your lack of any positive emotion in regards to your wife and her daughter, I am starting to wonder about your wife now.

Ultimately, I just cannot grasp how any person, man or woman, could see a child be born, spend 15 years her and have nothing for her.

I am trying to see you as someone who has allowed anger to govern his life and it has caused him to warp into something ugly and unpleasant. But then I think of you saying you need to make arrangements before you divorce and then I see a faceless teenage girl and her faceless mother winding up with nothing as you go on to work on obtaining that family and love you want. Don't you get you could had one this entire time? What you have allowed to rot away is simply beyond my ability to understand.

Chump Lady is so right, you need a very good look at yourself. If you really are a good person who has allowed anger to meld you into a monster I wonder what will happen when the defenses come down and you get a good look at what you allowed yourself to do? That is the stuff that personal nightmares are made of.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Member 11,
> 
> I can tell you that what you did was a form of you coping with your wife's infidelity. Most people on here divorce after infidelity, most enter false reconciliation and* some like you have their emotion, care, love die. The dedication, comittment, loyalty, is gone, your wife ruined it, although it does not justify your actions but thats the way you chose too cope.*
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

When I took my wife first time i too felt the same. I lost my love, respect and care for her. I was detached. I didn't felt any love or hate for her but I stayed with her for the sake of children. My wife ruined my emotions for her.

I too felt that I can now bang any number of chicks without a trace of guilt, if she don't care about my love or marriage why should I? But I didn't cheat but found her cheating again and kicked her out off my life.

So what you did is a coping mechanism you derived. Its too much for a man to accept his wife getting knocked up when they are married and her deciding to keep it, so your emotions are natural and feel normal for me JMO.

But what you did wrong by choosing to stay and live a life like this is that you lost your 15 yrs for nothing. You lost everything a normal man at this age usually have, a wonderful loving family, their own kids, care, love and empathy from wife. So you are a looser here, even though you are successful in your profession.

Its time for you to regain your life, you to deserve a good family so is she, so its time for you to get a D and move forward with your life. Already its too late.

Dont think that your wife dont know r have a clue about your betrayals, she know but she pretend to be unaware may be because she feels by getting knocked up by OM and keeping the child she lost her right to confront you, may be she is there in the marriage only for money and security blanket and dont care about whom you ***.

When you serve her the papers sit her down and tell her everything, she too deserve truth and honesty as a human being. If she know about your cheating and she still stayed because of the first reason then she deserve an apology from you.

Men are wired differently and their coping mechanism is different from each other.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Also you said you don't love or hate the child I don't believe this. I strongly believe definitely you love her but may not be aware of that.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

So Member 11 seems banned. Temporaly?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Acabado said:


> So Member 11 seems banned. Temporaly?



JB again? He's getting better.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> First off, it is no more complicated for a man than it is for a woman when your SPOUSE creates a child with SOMEONE ELSE, while you are MARRIED. NO DIFFERENT. If my husband were to come to me and say he knocked up another woman, it would be the SAME for me as for him if I got pregnant by someone else. The circumstances are the same. The result is the same. The consequences are the same.


I don't know how other men view it but for me, a woman being knocked up by her lover and a man knocking up another woman are two different things entirely. 

In the case of the OW being knocked up the paternity of the father is a certain and the husband would end up paying child support.

The reverse is definitely not true, for the woman getting knocked up by her lover, the paternity of the child is never a given and a cuckolded husband could spend the rest of his life 
paying for and raising a child that isn't his. Now if he were to find out years later, the psychological effects would be ghastly to say the least.

If you watch national geographic, you probably would have seen how when a new lion takes over a pride, it kills all the cubs sired by the previous leader, yet the lionesses don't really object to the lucky chap getting it on with one of the prettier lionesses, do they?


Back to this case, I believe there's something called extending grace(not that I think member11 is sweetheart by any means), and if I were him I would have probably headed for the door a long time ago, not hang around and prolong everyone's agony.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

aug said:


> JB again? He's getting better.


I don't think so.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I don't know how other men view it but for me, a woman being knocked up by her lover and a man knocking up another woman are two different things entirely.
> 
> In the case of the OW being knocked up the paternity of the father is a certain and the husband would end up paying child support.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I am not saying that one party is more guilty than the other but it is different. I say this while being a male, and most males if not all will agree that it is different. A man who impregnates a woman while being married, whether she is single or not will not have the child under his roof. He is the father but it is almost always the case that the child stays with the mother, is from the mother, and takes 9 months, and is transformed.

Member 11 never had a child with his wife. His wife had her first child ( I assume) from another man. An experience left for marriage was tainted, corrupted, and she became impregnated by another man, had her first child out of lust and infidelity and begged for her husband back.

Can some women understand my point of view? Infidelity is wrong, but the physical level of AFFECT the woman has by the mere inherent fact of being a woman and having the privilege to support and bare life makes it greater than man's physical level of affect over TIME.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Look, CJS and BF, I get what you are saying.... from the MALE perspective, it's the worst possible thing because you see that belly growing, the baby growing, NOT KNOWING at the time whether the child is yours or OM (for certain) until that paternity test is taken, proving one or the other. Yes, I understand that is how you would view if your wife got pregnant by another man. You can't fathom why she would allow it to happen, etc. right?

So, from a WOMAN'S perspective... you are right, the woman isn't under the same roof 24/7. But you still have to live with the thoughts that your husband stuck his penis inside some b!tch who didn't care that he was married. And the result is a child which may or may not be his. And, to do the right thing, he is involved in the pregnancy, getting the ultrasound pics which he is clueless about looking at. He gets the updates on the progress of the pregnancy. Then comes the time of delivery. Does he go to the hospital? Does the wife? And then the paternity test to prove whether the child is his or not. Once proven to be his, he has the option to go for custody or not, visitation or not.

The same rules apply for both sides, guys. Once paternity is established, the parents (bio AND step) need to decide to stay or go. If they stay together, then I think it is unacceptable to treat the child with indifference, but that's JMO. It isn't the child's fault how he or she was conceived.



CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Member 11 never had a child with his wife. His wife had her first child ( I assume) from another man. An experience left for marriage was tainted, corrupted, and she became impregnated by another man, had her first child out of lust and infidelity and begged for her husband back.


Yes, the girl had no choice in how she was conceived. Yes, she is the first and only child of her mother. And M11 had a choice to walk away and be done with the whole thing when she learned she was pregnant. But he didn't....



Member 11 said:


> Separated 6 months when it happened. We *reconciled and then she found out* she was pregnant. *I decided to stay.*



Yes, I understand it is different with men and women... it is a different PERSPECTIVE of the SAME situation.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

BjornFree said:


> I don't know how other men view it but for me, a woman being knocked up by her lover and a man knocking up another woman are two different things entirely.
> 
> In the case of the OW being knocked up the paternity of the father is a certain and the husband would end up paying child support.
> 
> ...


You make it sound like paternity testing doesn't exist for cheating wives. A cheating wife would and should expect to prove paternity just as an OW should and would be expected to. This case is pretty cut and dry. Both cheated. He isn't morally superior because he pulled out. 
I feel really sorry for the innocent child who had a "father" use her for financial gain for her entire life and hates her so much that he says he doesn't love her. He loves her enough in front of the cameras though. Jesus, her therapy bills will be in the high 5 figures. What a jerk.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

How many wives would react well to a paternity test?
Unless you have been caught cheating, you would probably view it the same way as we would if you asked us if you could read every text message, phone call, and email we've sent in the past 5 years. 

Also notice, cuckold. 
Can't turn that around can we? CAn a man trick a woman into raising a child that is from another woman?
I mean, think of a situation where a man just drops a kid into the marriage, out of no where, and we say it's yours. 
Unless he switched the babies out, he can't do that. And even if he did, he is still (or if you are working and the provider) you are still providing for only one child. 
So unless he takes charge of all the finances and somehow manages to siphon off 18 years of child support to the real child while another one lives within the house, you will catch on, and probably divorce the guy. 
But again, how likely is it that a guy could actually do that?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Broken at 20 said:


> How many wives would react well to a paternity test?
> Unless you have been caught cheating, you would probably view it the same way as we would if you asked us if you could read every text message, phone call, and email we've sent in the past 5 years.
> 
> Also notice, cuckold.
> ...


Odd that given your situation you are sticking up for a cheating married man. :scratchhead: Cuckhold doesn't apply in this situation. It was all out in the open from day one, at least her part of it. His? Not at all. He wants to be the "good guy" so he hid his cheating and continued cheating, yet made her and the daughter feel like garbage. What a guy.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You make it sound like paternity testing doesn't exist for cheating wives. A cheating wife would and should expect to prove paternity just as an OW should and would be expected to. This case is pretty cut and dry. Both cheated. He isn't morally superior because he pulled out.
> I feel really sorry for the innocent child who had a "father" use her for financial gain for her entire life and hates her so much that he says he doesn't love her. He loves her enough in front of the cameras though. Jesus, her therapy bills will be in the high 5 figures. What a jerk.


Hello, not taking this case in particular. Tell me how you would react if your husband were to demand the paternity testing of your children?

Its not always about morals, I think a large part of our evolution wasn't based on morals but on survival. And hence you so elegantly ignored the part about my referencing to the national geographic and the lion and his pride.

I imagine that tomorrow, if I were to find out that I am not the father of my children I'd be very very devastated. That can't be the case for a woman can it?

But in the end you're right, both of them were in the wrong and the child is the person who's ultimately going to suffer. But one wonders why the mother stuck around with such a man? Its her fault too, I guess.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

BjornFree said:


> Hello, not taking this case in particular. Tell me how you would react if your husband were to demand the paternity testing of your children?
> 
> Its not always about morals, I think a large part of our evolution wasn't based on morals but on survival. And hence you so elegantly ignored the part about my referencing to the national geographic and the lion and his pride.
> 
> ...


I was referring to this specific case. That's why he posted what he did, for answers/comments/suggestions. 
You are wrong that a woman cannot unknowingly contribute to her husband's child. I know of two men who siphoned money to their mistresses to cover expenses for the children. The wives didn't have any idea. Both used their marital assets to raise other children and thus have less for the families. That's a huge betrayal as well. 

Bottom line, cheaters suck.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Bottom line, cheaters suck.


Agreed! But we're humans, we're meant to be selfish. It just so happens that we're selfish in varying degrees.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Hello, not taking this case in particular. Tell me how you would react if your husband were to demand the paternity testing of your children?
> 
> Its not always about morals, I think a large part of our evolution wasn't based on morals but on survival. And hence you so elegantly ignored the part about my referencing to the national geographic and the lion and his pride.
> 
> ...


1. If my husband asked for a paternity test, I would be hurt, for sure... but if there was reason to doubt, as far as he knew, I would let him do it. Yea, I know, you think I'm lying or whatever. Maybe I would react differently. Never know unless he asks... I don't see that happening. HOWEVER, I can see why he COULD have asked at one point, and he would have been well within his right to ask. One of the stupid prenatal tests kept coming back "inconclusive". Had he requested, I'd have understood, considering the situation.

2. True, the woman can't say the baby isn't hers...well, unless it's a surrogacy thing, but yea.

3. Yes, the wife is equally to blame for staying in the situation where her daughter was treated with such indifference. As much as M11 sings her praises as a mother, I would have to disagree. A good mother wouldn't allow her child to be treated that way. A good mother wouldn't put material benefits before her child. In choosing to stay, that's exactly what she did.

4. Regarding the lion story.... glad we're not lions. No way could I share my man with anyone else. No way could I allow him to impregnate anyone else. No way could I allow my children to be killed by a man who "bested" my husband, only to be forced to breed with him. No.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If my husband knew that I had had sex with another man around the time the baby was conceived, I'd be VOLUNTEERING to have a paternity test done. That is, if I wanted to stay with my husband. If I didn't care about my husband, I'd be denying it could be the OM's and freaking on him for asking for the test.


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