# Is this controlling behavior or is it just me?



## TomNebraska

Hi all, 

sorry for the length, but wanted to ask about a general issue I've been having with my wife. it's been going on for almost as long as we've been married (we're in our 4th year of marriage & have a 3 year old daughter). 

my gut feeling here is this is unhealthy controlling behavior from my wife, and there's nothing I can do to resolve it, other than going along with everything she says, no matter what the cost to my sanity or our family (which will only create more problems and is not a real solution). 

background... my wife and mother do not get along. My wife accuses me of being a "mama's boy." NOTE: I have not lived at home or with my mother for over 10 years... I'm a 32-year-old independent, self-sufficient professional, and have been since college. We live in different states (I am in Nebraska *obviously*, she's in Maryland. we grew up in Iowa). I would say I am close to my mom (and my dad) typically talk to them once a week (although since being married I talk to my parents a lot less frequently), and see them once or maybe twice a year. They're really not involved in our lives very much, though if we asked, they'd certainly be open to visiting more. 

We had some problems a couple years ago when my mom was in town for our daughter's birthday (daughter was 2). My mom is kind of a talkative, loud, boisterous person. I acknowledge she can be kind of annoying some times, and tone deaf. I am not saying she was completely blameless, but my wife's response seems excessive. My wife blew up at my mom over a couple comments my mom made which were annoying, but in my opinion, not particularly personal or insulting. (mom complained about there being too many rules in our house when wife told her to hang her coat in the closet, then mocked my wife's comment in response by saying "oh, Nyah nyah nyah"). I made the mistake of telling my wife to chill out, and she viewed this as "taking my mothers side" and etc. etc. etc. It was a heated moment, I'll acknowledge. For the rest of the visit, everyone walked on eggshells. wife wouldn't come along for driving my mom to the airport. 

It wasn't just this particular incident though, after the visit ended. My wife criticised everything my mom did during that time, whether I was present for it or not.

Outside help. this whole visit continued to be a sore spot for months, and we eventually went to spousal therapy. I realize I did some things that were wrong... I should've stood by my wife, not defended my mom, etc. The therapist stressed we had a good marriage, and shared interests and we just needed to resolve this one (1) thing. But whenever it seemed like we reached a calm point or resolution, my wife would bring something else my mom did up, or escalate the discussion. She even started to allege my mom had "unhealthy" or "unnatural" feelings for me, which blew my mind. She made allegations of things my mom allegedly did that I confirmed with other people were definitely false. Several times the therapist would remind her not to get sarcastic and negative toward me, or interrupt when I was talking. (I always let her say her thing, kept my body language neutral etc. I REALLY wanted to resolve this and get on with our lives, and didn't want to do anything that could be considered bad faith on my part)

therapist's advice to my wife was to stop blaming me for things my mother did, and to stop dwelling on them because she was letting my mom control her, even though she was 1,000 miles away, and rarely involved in our lives. When she did visit, he advised my wife to change the subject if she was upset by something, or confront her, but not to get angry, or dwell on perceived slights. My take away was to listen to my wife and make clear I was on her side., and stand by her. Good? Good. 

THings got a little better after this. We talked more. When my wife would bring my mom up I would tell her it was okay, I loved her, she was being a good wife and D-I-L, my mom was wrong, and my mom couldn't come between us. I reassured her I was committed to her forever, would not let my mom say anything about her, etc. etc. 

But sometimes random complaints would catch me at a bad time... my wife would bring up my mom's behavior at odd moments, unrelated to contact or calls from my mom: on the way to the grocery store. while we were taking a walk. at dinner. my wife started complaining my mom never called her, and didn't visit us enough. This meant (obviously) my mom hated her, and my mom didn't love our daughter, her grand daughter. If I tried to defend my mom and say this wasn't true, my wife would explode, accuse me of taking my mom's side, etc. She would sometimes go from 0 to 10 in an instant. She would storm out of the room yelling. She would even do this in front of our daughter. 

I'm compressing the events of a few months into a couple paragraphs here, but it seems like every few weeks, my wife brings up my mom, her lack of contact, etc. and if I'm not *super *careful, we end up in a day long or two-day (sometimes more) fight. This gets very tiring. 

We last saw my mom over the holidays. There was some tense moments up to the visit as my wife felt "nervous" and "worried" but I did everything I could to reassure her. The visit itself was largely uneventful, but afterward of course, my wife started bringing up comments my mom made that I wasn't aware upset my wife, and attacking _ME _over them, and for not speaking up. This of course lead to another series of fights, which took about a week to talk through.

Now, over the last couple months, my wife has done the following:

- complained often about my mom's failure to call her. Though I discovered she deleted my mom's number from her phone, and at least once I saw my mom call her (i recognized the number) and my wife ignore it.

- my wife went through my phone and found a birthday message from my mom to me where she called me "her beloved son" which my wife responded to by sending me a bunch of articles on incest (!!!!). when I asked her why she was sending this, confessed she went through my phone and was "deeply offended" by this message. This lead to a fight, where she accused me of over-reacting for being offended I was literally alleged to be incestual.

- went through my phone on another occasion and complained I was only sending my mom pictures of myself and our daughter (not true), and then when confronted with the truth complained about the quality of the picture I included of my wife and our daughter (My wife can be hard to please...). (note: I never open or go through my wife's phone or email. also, I'm not sending my mom pics regularly or texting her regularly... these were a handful of texts from a month earlier)

- we had a family summer event come up (my side of the family) and my wife started making the conversation difficult, stating she didn't want to go for more than two days (meaning we'd travel a long way just for a short visit), etc. complaining about the cost, telling me it wouldn't be as fun as I was expecting, and I just dropped it completely rather than trying to figure out a way to make it work. 

- now I discussed having my mom visit for our daughter's birthday. My mom hasn't been over for over 6 months, and wants to see her granddaughter (who asks about her). my mom floats the idea every so often asked about a visit, and I delayed it for most of the year, and she wasn't pushy or anything, but I want my mom to come, see her granddaughter, visit, etc. Yes, it's important to me to see my family once and a while. she even emailed my wife about it a few times (emails were ignored apparently). my wife agreed with me my mom should come for the birthday, but spent the day before and after I called my mom making snide comments about "my mommy" and then brought up the whole "feelings" conversation about how nervous she was for the upcoming visit. 

I spent hours talking to my wife about my mom, reassuring her I'm on her side, I love her, etc. and we end the conversation on a good note, then the next day when I'm at work, I get an email telling me I still don't understand her, she's disappointed in my response, and etc. etc. 

I've started to honestly get nervous about this, and dread the conversation. I'm almost considering calling my mom and telling her not to even come. 

I'm at my wits end here. My wife has always been a bit jealous and controlling; when other women from my past come up she goes apoplectic (e.g. If I or someone else mentions past girlfriends, which is not something I do often, but over 4 years of marriage, yes, on occasion it may come up). Of course, she has no problem mentioning ex-boyfriends and when I pointed out the inconsistency, she waved off my concerns. she's accused my of being "interested" in other women in my office (yes I have female coworkers, but these accusations are baseless and my wife knows it), and then backs off or accuses me of being defensive if I say she's being ridiculous. I thought maybe she was just a little insecure. I figured the flare ups over my mom were just the same thing: wife being insecure. but honestly my wife seems obsessed with it, won't drop it. 

It's hard to have to have a 3 hour conversation almost every night, or risk being accused of "never wanting to spend time with your wife"... and then being accused of "not getting it" via email the next day. 

The kicker is, my wife talks to her mom and dad *nearly every day*. Of course this is "because she has no one else to talk to" and not because she's a daddy's girl/immature, etc. She's also discussed her parents coming to live with us(!!!), and we send them money a few times a year. I have never complained about these things we do for her family, and have told her I'm happy to help, but in the context, with her refusing to even allow my family to visit without making me pay the price with constant fights, insults, accusations, etc., they get hard for me to accept. 

Thoughts?


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## Blossom Leigh

The first thing I noticed was your wife didn't offer to take your mother's coat for her. No respect.

Then your mother smack talked her. No respect. 

You are stuck in the middle.

They are both to blame.


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## sokillme

Your wife's problem isn't really with your mom it's that she feels you would chose your mom over her. Because you kind of did. Mom, and SO relationships can be hard some times. I get it. 

Really though their relationship is theirs alone. You need to say to her, "look your relationship with my Mom is on you. If you have problems with her then you need to deal with it with her. There is nothing I can do to help you with this. I will always choose and defend you, but don't ask me to be disrespectful to the woman who gave birth to me." Then when she brings it up tell her she is free to tell your mom how she feels. They are both adults you don't have to be mediator, stay out of it. I learned to do this. I treat them how I used to treat my divorced parents. It actually helped a lot. I would let them both know though you expect them to be respectful to each other and be around each other occasionally period.


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## Bananapeel

In general I've always believed that you take your wife's side in public and then discuss the issues later privately, if you don't agree with her. But it sounds like she has an unhealthy disdain for your family and your current method of dealing with the situation is not working even after going for professional help. If you keep doing the same thing you'll get the same outcome so it is time to decide if you can put up some boundaries and be OK with the inevitable fallout. Being able to discuss a major issue with a spouse and work through the fallout and reach a compromise is a sign of a healthy marriage. 

If I were in your situation I'd be sure to make sure to stay absolutely calm during discussions and dictate when they occur and when they end. If she complains about your mom just say that you've discussed it before and have separate opinions and if she can't work towards maintaining a relationship with your mother as a favor to you then you'll maintain that relationship without her. Don't continue to fight over it, instead just make up your mind and follow it. Telling her "honey, I understand you feel that way, but this is important to me and we aren't going to agree on everything" is about as far as I'd let the discussions go. If she calls you a mamma's boy then just tell her that is not a respectful way to fight with a spouse and to come back when she calms down and can talk rationally. 

Good luck.


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## turnera

Personally, I would tell my wife that I wasn't prepared to stay married to her until she started going to regular therapy (to fix her low self esteem). And I would NOT put up with her talking about my mom any more. Period. I would inform her that my mother is now OFF THE TABLE and any time she brings my mother up, I will immediately get up and leave the room. And then you DO it.

There are two things going on here. One is that you are a Nice Guy and your wife is therefore walking ALL OVER YOU. You think that the 'only' thing you can do is shut up and let her have her way? Boy have YOU got a lot of learning to do.

The other is that your wife has been continuously sh*t-testing you since that incident in an effort to get you to cave and crumble and beg forgiveness for the rest of your life, so that she can feel superior, since she has such low self esteem.

There IS a solution to sh*t-testing, but it is NOT to let the wife get away with this crap. It is for you to see that she wants you to be a strong man and make all this go away. Maybe with a spanking. 

YOUR first order of business is to get the book No More Mr Nice Guy and start reading it TODAY. You'll understand what I'm talking about. Go get it.


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## TomNebraska

Blossom Leigh said:


> The first thing I noticed was your wife didn't offer to take your mother's coat for her. No respect.
> 
> Then your mother smack talked her. No respect.
> 
> You are stuck in the middle.
> 
> They are both to blame.


This is true. 

However, that was one incident now a couple years in the past. My wife seems unwilling to move past it for the sake of our sanity, or marital relations. It's like she found a cause or point to needle me with, and it's just too good for her to let go. It's completely baffling to me.


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## MattMatt

Well, having studied mental health disorders as part of my training, and I know it's wrong to diagnose on scant evidence, I would say that in my opinion, your mom is a nice, loud mom.

But your wife is suffering from some mental health issues. And she is *not* a nice mom.

If she believes that my "beloved son" means you and your mother have had an incestual relationship, then your wife is sick.

She does not need psychotherapy... she needs psychiatry. Seriously. 

And why allow your child to be raised by someone who is more than a few sandwiches short of a full picnic?


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## Blossom Leigh

TomNebraska said:


> This is true.
> 
> However, that was one incident now a couple years in the past. My wife seems unwilling to move past it for the sake of our sanity, or marital relations. It's like she found a cause or point to needle me with, and it's just too good for her to let go. It's completely baffling to me.


Fog of emotional abuse


Out of the FOG

Book : Boundaries by Townsend and Emotional Blackmail


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## TomNebraska

MattMatt said:


> Well, having studied mental health disorders as part of my training, and I know it's wrong to diagnose on scant evidence, I would say that in my opinion, your mom is a nice, loud mom.
> 
> But your wife is suffering from some mental health issues. And she is *not* a nice mom.
> 
> If she believes that my "beloved son" means you and your mother have had an incestual relationship, then your wife is sick.
> 
> She does not need psychotherapy... she needs psychiatry. Seriously.
> 
> And why allow your child to be raised by someone who is more than a few sandwiches short of a full picnic?


well, she's a good mom. Our daughter is healthy, smart, and happy. 

I think she's mostly a good wife as well... it's just this issue. 

I was pretty offended by the incest thing (and that wasn't the only time she accused me of that), but for the sake of marital bliss, I didn't dwell on it. I'm pretty shocked she thinks that sort of accusation and escalation is/was okay at the time, and equally shocked she seemed to think she could prove it or I would accept it. 

Also, around this time, when I'd argue with her, if I got upset and raised my voice, she was quick to call my comments "abuse"... I suspect she read somewhere that it was important to call out abuse or something. The allegations of abuse hit me like a brick.


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## TomNebraska

Bananapeel said:


> In general I've always believed that you take your wife's side in public and then discuss the issues later privately, if you don't agree with her. But it sounds like she has an unhealthy disdain for your family and your current method of dealing with the situation is not working even after going for professional help. If you keep doing the same thing you'll get the same outcome so it is time to decide if you can put up some boundaries and be OK with the inevitable fallout. Being able to discuss a major issue with a spouse and work through the fallout and reach a compromise is a sign of a healthy marriage.
> 
> If I were in your situation I'd be sure to make sure to stay absolutely calm during discussions and dictate when they occur and when they end. If she complains about your mom just say that you've discussed it before and have separate opinions and if she can't work towards maintaining a relationship with your mother as a favor to you then you'll maintain that relationship without her. Don't continue to fight over it, instead just make up your mind and follow it. Telling her "honey, I understand you feel that way, but this is important to me and we aren't going to agree on everything" is about as far as I'd let the discussions go. If she calls you a mamma's boy then just tell her that is not a respectful way to fight with a spouse and to come back when she calms down and can talk rationally.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. 

It's hard to stay calm. I get interrupted, talked over, and she storms out of the room, etc. it's also hard to stay on point, because she brings up things my mom did in the past, over and over, even when things calm down. I have to like mentally remind myself to avoid anything, no matter how innocent, that could be construed as support for my mom, disagreement with my wife's feelings.


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## MattMatt

TomNebraska said:


> well, she's a good mom. Our daughter is healthy, smart, and happy.
> 
> I think she's mostly a good wife as well... it's just this issue.
> 
> I was pretty offended by the incest thing (and that wasn't the only time she accused me of that), but for the sake of marital bliss, I didn't dwell on it. I'm pretty shocked she thinks that sort of accusation and escalation is/was okay at the time, and equally shocked she seemed to think she could prove it or I would accept it.
> 
> Also, around this time, when I'd argue with her, if I got upset and raised my voice, she was quick to call my comments "abuse"... I suspect she read somewhere that it was important to call out abuse or something. The allegations of abuse hit me like a brick.


Your wife is mentally deranged.

And is, and this is only my opinion, you understand, an absolutely dreadful, *dreadful,* hateful mother!

Why?

Because she believes (or _makes the pretence of believing _) that the father of her daughter has turned his own father, her Father-in-Law, her daughter's grandfather, into a cuckold by having an illegal, incentuous relationship with your own mother.

She is sick and her sickness needs to be stopped before it does begin to have a negative impact on your daughter. Which, in time, it will, you mark my words!

(Sorry. Starting to sound like my dad, now...  )


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## GusPolinski

Side w/ your wife where possible (especially regarding trivial stuff), but DO NOT tolerate disrespect for your mother.

"Sweetie, I love you, but this is MY MAMA, and I'll not have you speaking to her -- or about her -- like this."

"Mama, I love you, but this is MY WIFE, and I'll not have you speaking to her like this, ESPECIALLY in our home."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

I agree with what nearly everyone is saying. Still, I will point out one thing. You say you see them once or twice a year, then your wife is acting a complete fool. This is one time I do not agree with taking sides with your wife except in public. She should be smart enough and caring enough to let a coat rule slide twice a year or, take the coat and nicely say "Here's where we hang our coats." Admonishing my mom for the right reason is okay, but not for her teasing my wife on a coat violation. Sorry, not doing it.


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## ne9907

Ouch
You are in a tough spot. As an outsider looking in, yes your wife is being extremely unreasonable. 

What is her childhood history? What type of men did she date before you?
The unfounded jealousy (towards mom FFS!) might derived from an unpleasant past experience.

I get the feeling she is trying to "turn you against" your family (so to speak), which is a tactic used by narcissistic personalities.

In any event, your wife needs professional psychiatric help, yet she is likely NOT to listen to you. Could you enlist your MIL and FIL help?


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## *Deidre*

Most likely, your wife was this way before you married her. Marriage doesn't change people. Sounds like your wife needs some professional counseling, without you present. She has issues that have nothing to do with you or your mom. But, not sure why you married a very jealous, controlling person, unless you rushed into marriage and didn't see these red flags?


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## TomNebraska

ne9907 said:


> Ouch
> You are in a tough spot. As an outsider looking in, yes your wife is being extremely unreasonable.
> 
> What is her childhood history? What type of men did she date before you?
> The unfounded jealousy (towards mom FFS!) might derived from an unpleasant past experience.
> 
> I get the feeling she is trying to "turn you against" your family (so to speak), which is a tactic used by narcissistic personalities.
> 
> In any event, your wife needs professional psychiatric help, yet she is likely NOT to listen to you. Could you enlist your MIL and FIL help?


MIL and FIL cannot help, and I know would be of little help. W/out going into too much detail, they have boatloads of problems on their own. f my wife doesn't call my MIL on a daily basis (I am not exaggerating), my MIL texts her, calls her repeatedly, demands to know what's going on, tells her she's afraid something is wrong, etc. Two therapists have both told my wife her mother (my MIL) is controlling and she needs to limit contact with her, but she just. won't. do. it. 

I guess, maybe, I see where she gets the controlling behavior. 

and I'm the mama's boy (?) ...


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## TomNebraska

*Deidre* said:


> Most likely, your wife was this way before you married her. Marriage doesn't change people. Sounds like your wife needs some professional counseling, without you present. She has issues that have nothing to do with you or your mom. But, not sure why you married a very jealous, controlling person, unless you rushed into marriage and didn't see these red flags?


it was the one (1) time in my life I ignored the little voice in my head, and followed my heart!


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## *Deidre*

TomNebraska said:


> it was the one (1) time in my life I ignored the little voice in my head, and followed my heart!


We've all ignored that little voice, at times.  But, don't ignore it anymore.


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## ne9907

TomNebraska said:


> MIL and FIL cannot help, and I know would be of little help. W/out going into too much detail, they have boatloads of problems on their own. f my wife doesn't call my MIL on a daily basis (I am not exaggerating), my MIL texts her, calls her repeatedly, demands to know what's going on, tells her she's afraid something is wrong, etc. Two therapists have both told my wife her mother (my MIL) is controlling and she needs to limit contact with her, but she just. won't. do. it.
> 
> I guess, maybe, I see where she gets the controlling behavior.
> 
> and I'm the mama's boy (?) ...


You did not answer my questions.... Would be beneficial to know about her past history


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## TomNebraska

ne9907 said:


> You did not answer my questions.... Would be beneficial to know about her past history


I'm not going to go into everything here; it's not really germane to the original question. Suffice to say though, that I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest she needs further therapy. I even suggested it, and she went for a while, but claimed the therapist told her more was not needed unless she felt she was encountering difficult times, or going through something specific. 

I don't think she told him about her phone snooping, accusing me of having an incestual relationship based on my mom calling me "her beloved son," or some of the other creepy stuff, so I'm not sure they really got at the issues... some of those things occurred after her last visit anyway.


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## turnera

All of this is bullsh*t. 

There is only ONE issue here. 

YOUR fear of standing up to your wife.

Get professional help for that.


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## TomNebraska

turnera said:


> All of this is bullsh*t.
> 
> There is only ONE issue here.
> 
> YOUR fear of standing up to your wife.
> 
> Get professional help for that.


jeez... 

It's not like I haven't stood up to her before, and will do so again. 

I just wanted some advice, other perspectives on her actions.


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## turnera

TomNebraska said:


> This is true.
> 
> However, that was one incident now a couple years in the past. My wife seems unwilling to move past it for the sake of our sanity, or marital relations.


Why should she? You're a doormat so she doesn't have to defer to you for ANYTHING.


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## turnera

TomNebraska said:


> jeez...
> 
> It's not like I haven't stood up to her before, and will do so again.


Examples, please.


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## norajane

I agree with turnera. Your wife's behavior is preventing your daughter from spending time with her grandparents and other family. Do you love your family? Do you want her to know your family and to love them? Yes? So why are you allowing this?

Next time there's a family gathering and your wife doesn't want to go, you tell her she can stay home, but you and your daughter need to spend time with your family. And while you would prefer it if your wife comes, you are going so your daughter can see her family even if wife chooses to stay home.

If you spend 3 hours every night "discussing" your wife's feelings about your mother, when are you two dating and having fun and having sex? You don't have to do this. You do it and your wife is still unsatisfied and gets mad at you, so why bother doing it? Tell her you've heard everything she has to say and you are done hearing it over and over, and if she wants to keep talking about it, therapy is the place to do that. Get up and go spend time with your daughter or go for a jog or whatever when she starts up.

And you should consider going to therapy to get a better understanding of yourself, and how you want to live your life. Because your current situation isn't healthy and will bring you both down - and will hurt your daughter - so if your wife won't change, it's up to you to change direction.


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## WorkingWife

TomNebraska said:


> My wife blew up at my mom over a couple comments my mom made which were annoying, but in my opinion, not particularly personal or insulting. (mom complained about there being too many rules in our house when wife told her to hang her coat in the closet, then mocked my wife's comment in response by saying "oh, Nyah nyah nyah"). I made the mistake of telling my wife to chill out, and she viewed this as "taking my mothers side" and etc. etc. etc.


Your wife sounds like she's become obsessed with your mother. As someone else said, probably because she believes you put your mother before her. 

So, having read your post I would say your wife is deranged with inappropriate jealousy. Except for the part I quoted above... That exchange honestly blew my mind.

Was your mother totally joking around, or was she serious? Because if she was serious - I can see how this has stuck in your wife's craw all these years. Not that it excuses her lying about phone calls and accusations of incest, mind you, but who walks into someone else's house and 1) criticizes their "rules" and then 2) mocks them? WTH? It makes me wonder what else your mom has said/done that you find "annoying" that comes across to your wife as a declaration of war?

What to do -- that's hard, because now your wife is over the top and sabotaging both your relationships with your mother. One thing I'm curious about though -- you say you take your wife's side. Okay. But, have you ever stood up to your mother and defended your wife in front of your wife? If not, your wife may feel like you are just trying to placate her by saying "you're right and she's wrong" and then behind her back letting your mom be disrespectful of her.

If your wife stops feeling like your mother comes first she may stop this crazy behavior. But it's also possible she's realized it's a tool to use against you to get her way or to keep you off balance. Somehow she needs to know that the two of you need to come to an agreement re your mother because it's hurting your marriage and you can only take so much more.

*I am very curious to know what some other comments your mom has made that didn't seem that bad to you but your wife went nuts over.*


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## TomNebraska

WorkingWife said:


> TomNebraska said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife blew up at my mom over a couple comments my mom made which were annoying, but in my opinion, not particularly personal or insulting. (mom complained about there being too many rules in our house when wife told her to hang her coat in the closet, then mocked my wife's comment in response by saying "oh, Nyah nyah nyah"). I made the mistake of telling my wife to chill out, and she viewed this as "taking my mothers side" and etc. etc. etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife sounds like she's become obsessed with your mother. As someone else said, probably because she believes you put your mother before her.
> 
> So, having read your post I would say your wife is deranged with inappropriate jealousy. Except for the part I quoted above... That exchange honestly blew my mind.
> 
> Was your mother totally joking around, or was she serious? Because if she was serious - I can see how this has stuck in your wife's craw all these years. Not that it excuses her lying about phone calls and accusations of incest, mind you, but who walks into someone else's house and 1) criticizes their "rules" and then 2) mocks them? WTH? It makes me wonder what else your mom has said/done that you find "annoying" that comes across to your wife as a declaration of war?
> 
> What to do -- that's hard, because now your wife is over the top and sabotaging both your relationships with your mother. One thing I'm curious about though -- you say you take your wife's side. Okay. But, have you ever stood up to your mother and defended your wife in front of your wife? If not, your wife may feel like you are just trying to placate her by saying "you're right and she's wrong" and then behind her back letting your mom be disrespectful of her.
> 
> If your wife stops feeling like your mother comes first she may stop this crazy behavior. But it's also possible she's realized it's a tool to use against you to get her way or to keep you off balance. Somehow she needs to know that the two of you need to come to an agreement re your mother because it's hurting your marriage and you can only take so much more.
> 
> *I am very curious to know what some other comments your mom has made that didn't seem that bad to you but your wife went nuts over.*
Click to expand...

first of all, thanks for this. replying on my phone so bear with my here:

second, no, my wife hasnt seen me take her side against my mom. I had another family member piss my wife off over something stupid she said and i confronted her about it (even though i felt ridiculous because it was an innocuous comment and my wife again went nuts about it). wife later said "thank you for standing with me" but that was it, and apparently this newfound showing of support didnt translate into her expecting i would do the same with my mom. 

when i try to tell her to chill out, tell her i wont let my mom speak to her like that again and i appreciate her telling me about how she felt, she basically just ignores me and starts going back and bringing up everythjng my mom ever did and said to her that she found offensive. its like a bottomless well.

my mom initially made the comment about rules and what not in jest. and it was clear to me it wasnt to be taken seriously, but my wife felt it was a intentional attack on her "in her house", calls me "naive" and "duped" when i explain my family loves her, doesnt want to attack her, is happy she's my wife, etc (all things they have said to me). 

when we went to therapy, the therapist heard us out on this, and told my wife all families are different and not to take all comments and things said in malice; dont assume a motive and get upset over comments like that.

she seems to take everything my mom has said or done as a threat/insult, no matter how innocuous, and i'm a naive, mommas boy for not seeing things her way. i feel like im in a damned if you do, damned it you dont situation.

i put up with it and have done everything i could to try and resolve this with discussion. its now affecting my work (i cant focus on my job when i get these emails during the day attaching psycho-babble articles about controlliing mothers-in-law/ or emails telling me how upset she is that I just won't understand her predicament & knowing after i leave work im going to be walking into an emtional buzzsaw at the end of the day). so... i posted here.


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## MattMatt

WorkingWife said:


> Your wife sounds like she's become obsessed with your mother. As someone else said, probably because she believes you put your mother before her.
> 
> So, having read your post I would say your wife is deranged with inappropriate jealousy. Except for the part I quoted above... That exchange honestly blew my mind.
> 
> Was your mother totally joking around, or was she serious? Because if she was serious - I can see how this has stuck in your wife's craw all these years. Not that it excuses her lying about phone calls and accusations of incest, mind you, but who walks into someone else's house and 1) criticizes their "rules" and then 2) mocks them? WTH? It makes me wonder what else your mom has said/done that you find "annoying" that comes across to your wife as a declaration of war?
> 
> What to do -- that's hard, because now your wife is over the top and sabotaging both your relationships with your mother. One thing I'm curious about though -- you say you take your wife's side. Okay. But, have you ever stood up to your mother and defended your wife in front of your wife? If not, your wife may feel like you are just trying to placate her by saying "you're right and she's wrong" and then behind her back letting your mom be disrespectful of her.
> 
> If your wife stops feeling like your mother comes first she may stop this crazy behavior. But it's also possible she's realized it's a tool to use against you to get her way or to keep you off balance. Somehow she needs to know that the two of you need to come to an agreement re your mother because it's hurting your marriage and you can only take so much more.
> 
> *I am very curious to know what some other comments your mom has made that didn't seem that bad to you but your wife went nuts over.*


She made those comments to DIL as she was, eventually, heartily sick of DIL's behaviour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

When your wife starts going off about your mom, you hold up your hand and say "Do you want me to start going off about your mom?". Tell her you won't tolerate the near constant put-downs of your mother and if she ever insinuates an incestuous relationship again that you'll be talking to your attorney. 


You can't let this crap slide because little ears are in the house.


You need to tell your loud, boisterous mother to respect her hostess or she can pick out a hotel. Ethel Merman is not everyone's cup of tea.


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## WorkingWife

MattMatt said:


> She made those comments to MIL as she was, eventually, heartily sick of DIL's behaviour.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm confused... 

Do you mean the MIL made those comments to the DIL because the MIL was already sick of the DIL's behavior?

That's definitely possible, but it sounds like the comments took place pretty much as soon as she got to her DIL's house, so when did she have time to get sick of the DIL's behavior?

I really can't imagine an adult telling another adult they have "too many rules" in their own home. Or mocking them.

Of course we don't know how the DIL expressed her "rule" about hanging coats up. Did she nicely say "Please hang your coat's in the closet" as she was showing her around the house, or did she act all snotty-rude herself and say something like "We have a rule in this house that coats get hung up in the closet, not left lying around!" after her MIL set her coat on a chair not knowing what else to do with it.

I'm very curious to hear more concrete examples of dialog on both sides, as well as how H reacted. I'm really curious what other things MIL has said that sent DIL over the edge that H thinks are no big deal, plus curious to know what DIL said prior to the offenses that may have provoked them.


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## MattMatt

WorkingWife said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> Do you mean the MIL made those comments to the DIL because the MIL was already sick of the DIL's behavior?
> 
> That's definitely possible, but it sounds like the comments took place pretty much as soon as she got to her DIL's house, so when did she have time to get sick of the DIL's behavior?
> 
> I really can't imagine an adult telling another adult they have "too many rules" in their own home. Or mocking them.
> 
> Of course we don't know how the DIL expressed her "rule" about hanging coats up. Did she nicely say "Please hang your coat's in the closet" as she was showing her around the house, or did she act all snotty-rude herself and say something like "We have a rule in this house that coats get hung up in the closet, not left lying around!" after her MIL set her coat on a chair not knowing what else to do with it.
> 
> I'm very curious to hear more concrete examples of dialog on both sides, as well as how H reacted. I'm really curious what other things MIL has said that sent DIL over the edge that H thinks are no big deal, plus curious to know what DIL said prior to the offenses that may have provoked them.


Thanks! You weren't confused! ""I"" was confused! I used Mil when I should have used DIL. Thanks for putting me right! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife

TomNebraska said:


> The visit itself was largely uneventful, but afterward of course, my wife started bringing up comments my mom made that I wasn't aware upset my wife, and attacking _ME _over them, and for not speaking up.


Can you provide a few examples of comments your mom made that you heard but didn't think anything of that your wife attacked you for not speaking up over later?

By the way, when your wife told your mom to hang her coat up, was your wife being rude? And what comment did your wife make back to you mom that prompted your mom to mock her?

The reason I ask is that it does sound like your wife is completely unreasonable. However, apparently it's pretty common for some MIL's to be little sh*t disturbers in their son's marriages. If your mom is goading her and you're just standing there, oblivious, I can see that causing your wife a lot of pain. Though it sounds like you're wife is the jealous sort to begin with.

I don't understand why your wife complains that your mother doesn't visit/call more when your wife seems to hate her. Who would call someone they know does not like them? And how often does your wife call her MIL?

Definitely sounds like you've got your hands full... I don't envy you at all.


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## Uptown

Tom, I agree with @turnera, @MattMatt, @ne9907, and @*Deidre* that you're describing warning signs for a mental health issue that may warrant professional therapy.



TomNebraska said:


> My wife has always been a bit jealous and controlling; when other women from my past come up she goes apoplectic.... She's accused my of being "interested" in other women in my office.... I figured the flare ups over my mom were just the same thing.


I agree with you, Tom, that the irrational jealousy she exhibits both toward your mother and toward other women likely stem from the very same thing: a great fear of abandonment. That fear is one of the nine warning signs (i.e., symptoms) for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 

Moreover, the other dysfunctional behaviors you describe -- i.e, easily triggered temper tantrums, verbal abuse, very controlling actions, lack of impulse control, paranoia (your "incest" with your own mother), nearly always thinking of herself as "The Victim," and her rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you and demonizing you) -- also are classic warning signs for BPD. 

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. Moreover, I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, _I cannot answer that question_. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as irrational jealousy, always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.



> She brings up things my mom did in the past, over and over, even when things calm down.... It's like she found a cause or point to needle me with, and it's just too good for her to let go. It's completely baffling to me.


It is not baffling if she exhibits strong BPD traits. A BPDer (i.e., person with strong, persistent traits) has low self esteem and a very fragile sense of self identity. To the extent a BPDer has any consistent sense of self at all, it is the false self image of being "the Victim," always "the Victim." Because a BPDer has a frequent need to "validate" that false self image, she will keep a mental list of your every infraction (real or imagined). 

If you're really are married to a BPDer, her list will go back to the day you married four years ago. After you've been married 25 years, it will go back the full 25 years. Moreover, a BPDer will not hesitate to pull out that entire list at some point in nearly every argument, no matter how small the issue. And that list will include every minor thing your mother did wrong because, in a BPDer's mind, it occurred only because YOU allowed it to occur. In this distorted way of thinking, your mother's "failings" become your "failings," making you out to become "The Perpetrator."



> It's been going on for almost as long as we've been married (we're in our 4th year of marriage...).


If your W actually is fairly high on the BPD spectrum, you likely would not have seen any strong warning signs during your courtship period. The reason is that her infatuation would have convinced her that you are the nearly perfect guy who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. 

In that way, her infatuation would hold her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. That period typically lasts 4 to 6 months but may last as long as a year -- or even longer if the R/S is long distance at the beginning. It is only when courtship ends -- i.e., when her infatuation starts evaporating -- that her fears return and you (and your mother) start triggering her two fears.



> There's nothing I can do to resolve it, other than going along with everything she says, no matter what *the cost to my sanity*.


I assume you feel perfectly sane now and are simply referring here to a possible _future _loss of your sanity. Well, if your W actually does exhibit strong BPD traits, consider yourself lucky that -- after living with her for 4 years -- you are not already doubting your own sanity. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning. 



> We eventually went to spousal therapy.


If she exhibits only mild or moderate BPD traits, MC may be helpful. If her BPD traits are strong, however, it likely will be a total waste of time. Teaching simple communication skills to a BPDer accomplishes nothing until she has had years of therapy to address her far more serious insecurities, immaturity, and lack of basic emotional skills.



> She made allegations of things my mom allegedly did that I confirmed with other people were definitely false.


If your W exhibits strong narcissistic or sociopathic traits, then you likely are describing lies and deliberate attempts to manipulate you. If she is a BPDer, however, she likely has such a distorted perception of your mother's intentions that she actually believes the absurd allegations coming out of her mouth. And when she completely changes the story a week later, she likely will be convinced that nonsense is true too. This behavior is so common among BPDers that the abused partners have given it a name: "rewriting history."



> If I tried to defend my mom and say this wasn't true, my wife would explode, accuse me of taking my mom's side, etc. She would sometimes go from 0 to 10 in an instant. She would storm out of the room yelling.


As I observed earlier, a BPDer can flip -- in only ten seconds -- from adoring you to hating you (or devaluing you). This instantaneous Jekyll-Hyde transformation occurs because a BPDer -- like a young child -- is so emotionally immature that she cannot handle or tolerate strong conflicting feelings. Her subconscious mind therefore protects her fragile ego from having to deal with strong conflicting feelings by "splitting off" one of those feelings (e.g., love or hate), i.e., putting it completely out of reach of her conscious mind. 

BPDers are simply too immature to handle the ambiguities, uncertainties, conflicting feelings, and other gray areas of interpersonal relationships. So, like young children, they simply their lives by relying on black-white thinking. This all-or-nothing thinking will be evident in the way a BPDer can quickly flip between adoring you to abusing you. It also will be evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "You always..." and "You never...." And it will be evident in the way a BPDer tends to categorize everyone as "all good" ("white" or "with me") or "all bad" ("black" or "against me").



> She even started to allege my mom had "unhealthy" or "unnatural" feelings for me, which blew my mind.... My mom called me "her beloved son" which my wife responded to by sending me a bunch of articles on incest (!!!!).


You are describing behavior that is called "paranoia." It occurs when someone gets a very distorted perception of your true intentions or motivations. Like the abandonment fear, paranoia is one of the nine defining traits for a pattern of BPD behavior. 

Significantly, the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, which means they typically interact fine with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. None of those people can trigger their two two fears as long as they don't make the mistake of trying to develop a close relationship. This is why the only people who see the occurrences of paranoia and other strong BPD traits typically are family members -- not strangers, casual friends, or business colleagues. Moreover, high functioning people may exhibit strong paranoia only a few times a year, or perhaps even less often than that.



> This lead to a fight, where she accused me of over-reacting for being offended I was literally alleged to be incestual.


If your W is a BPDer, you are perceived to be the cause of her every misfortune. Like I said, she is "the Victim" and you are "the Perpetrator" if she is a BPDer (after her infatuation has evaporated).



> if I got upset and raised my voice, she was quick to call my comments "abuse"... I suspect she read somewhere that it was important to call out abuse or something. The allegations of abuse hit me like a brick.


If your W is a BPDer, those allegations of abuse almost certainly will get worse over the years. Very much worse. If that occurs, you should either divorce her or get in the habit of carring a VAR in your shirt pocket at all times when you're around her. 

At the end of my 15-year marriage, my BPDer exW had me arrested on the bogus charge of "brutalizing her." Because I was arrested early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail for nearly 3 days before I had an opportunity to go before a judge at arraignment. By that time, my exW had obtained a restraining order (which courts hand out like candy) barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months -- the time it takes to get a divorce in this State.



> I just want some advice, other perspectives on her actions.


 My advice, Tom, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your young daughter are dealing with. If you suspect that BPD plays an important role, I recommend that you see YOUR OWN psychologist, i.e., one who has never treated or seen your W. 

That way, you are assured that the psych is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. Generally, therapists are loath to tell a BPDer client (or the spouse) the name of his/her disorder -- so as to protect that client. Hence, when BPD may be involved, relying on her therapist to give you candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney to give you candid advice during the divorce.

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply. An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of these red flags at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you avoid a potentially very painful situation, e.g., help you decide whether your marriage is becoming toxic or whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion.Take care, Tom.


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## WorkingWife

Uptown said:


> Teaching simple communication skills to a BPDer accomplishes nothing until she has had years of therapy to address her far more serious insecurities, immaturity, and lack of basic emotional skills.


That was a fascinating (and scary as hell) post.

So if someone is BPD is it a brain chemistry issue that can be helped with medication the way bi polar or depression can? Or is it just a "personality" thing where that's the way they see the world and only therapy can maybe help?


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## Uptown

WorkingWife said:


> So if someone is BPD is it a brain chemistry issue that can be helped with medication the way bi polar or depression can?


No, WorkingWife, medication won't make a dent in BPD itself. But medication nonetheless will be prescribed if the BPDer sees a psychiatrist. The reason is that anyone exhibiting strong BPD traits almost certainly exhibits one or two co-occurring "clinical disorders" as well. These clinical disorders include conditions like bipolar, GAD, ADHD, PTSD, and depression -- all of which can be treated with medication. (Bipolar, for example, is caused by gradual changes in body chemistry and medication like lithium can offset those changes.) In addition, a full-blown BPDer also has about an 80% chance of exhibiting another personality disorder too (e.g., Narcissistic PD or Avoidant PD).



> Or is it just a "personality" thing where that's the way they see the world and only therapy can maybe help?


Yes, that's why BPD is said to be a "personality disorder." Actually, the nine defining traits listed in the APA's diagnostic manual do not describe the underlying disorder at all. Nobody has yet proven what it is that causes BPD. Instead, those traits describe only the behavioral symptoms. At low to moderate levels, those symptoms are basic ego defenses we all have and which are essential to our survival. They become a problem only when they are too strong.



> That was a fascinating (and scary as hell) post.


Sorry about the scary part. Generally, BPD symptoms -- even strong BPD symptoms -- are so common that they are not scary at all. We all behave like full-blown BPDers 24/7 when we are young children and most of us start behaving that way again (e.g., temper tantrums and identity issues) for a couple of years during our mid-teens. When you see very strong BPD behavior in an adult, what you're usually seeing is NOT the lifetime persistent problem I described above. 

Rather, you usually are seeing a temporary flareup of the normal BPD traits everyone has. These "flareups" typically are caused by powerful hormone changes (and to a lesser extent by drug abuse). The hormone changes include puberty, PMS, pregnancy, postpartum, and perimenopause. As you would expect, women are more vulnerable to hormone changes due to their childbearing role and thus tend to exhibit more temporary flareups than men. The incidence of lifetime full-blown BPD, however, is the same for both men and women (6%).

Generally, you will not find the full-blown BPDers to be scary at all. The vast majority of them are high functioning individuals who typically exhibit a warmth, spontaneity, and childlike purity of expression that makes them very likable, fun, and easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. You typically will never see a BPDer's dark side unless you make the mistake of trying to establish a close friendship, at which point you will start triggering the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment).


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## TomNebraska

Uptown said:


> Tom, I agree with @turnera, @MattMatt, @ne9907, and @*Deidre* that you're describing warning signs for a mental health issue that may warrant professional therapy.
> 
> I agree with you, Tom, that the irrational jealousy she exhibits both toward your mother and toward other women likely stem from the very same thing: a great fear of abandonment. That fear is one of the nine warning signs (i.e., symptoms) for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. A lot of the points you bring up seem to apply to her behavior. 

The abandonment & engulfment thing is what I have gone through several times, often in cycles as you describe. It's usually her finding something (e.g. old pictures of girlfriends I forgot I had, disorganized, in a box with hundreds of other old pictures, or the negatives (!) of those I didn't even realize I had), and then going ballistic without giving me a chance to explain, me doing whatever she asks (I've thrown away tons of old pictures, cards from family, especially my mom of course, and now she's giving me grief that I have a box of old mementos, books, family heirlooms, under our bed and thinks it's "sick" that I put these under our marital bed) and finally, after I do everything she demands, her calming down. I honestly don't know what she would do if I refused. I seriously believe if I said "No, I'm not throwing out old cards from my mom" she would claim this is a sign I love my mother more than her, and leave me. 

Other times, like with the snooping through my phone, had the same result. She'd ambush me with these out of the blue. It would either start with the silent treatment, then screaming, accusations, etc. etc.

The only thing about BPD is, I've never seen her really go through a "manic" phase. She seems to be depressed, most often, and occasionally this rises beyond that to mild happiness/contentment, but depression, anger, accusations, etc. are never far away.


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## TomNebraska

I did bring up my concerns yesterday, and it got pretty heated. I told her that her behavior which involved:


a three hour conversation two nights ago about "her feelings" and "her anxiety about my mom's visit" (which is over a month away...) that more or less finally ended amicably (or so I thought)


which was followed up by an email when I was at work the next day accusing me of not getting her at all, her being disappointed in my response, and her having to learn to deal with the fact that I will always be on my family's side over hers and we all stand against her. 


Then she left me a voicemail claiming she didn't mean to send the email, but our daughter grabbed her phone and pressed send. (okay...) and used this to claim I was overreacting and she didn't mean to keep the argument going

Well, I brought these things up to her, I told her they weren't about her feelings, but were becoming controlling and manipulative behavior, and I was tired of putting up with them. She said "_okay, fine. then leave._" then it got heated, ebbed and flowed... a couple times she said if we didn't have our daughter, she would just kill herself, and no one would care, and made the usual claims that I won't take her side, I keep standing with my mom, and going back to the well to bring up things my mom did and said. I told her I couldn't believe our daughter sent the email, that was ridiculous and I couldn't believe she would lie to my face like that... she seemed to really fixate on the idea that I could accuse her of lying.

After a while I proposed tabling differences for now, and only discussing them in front of a therapist, which is how we left it. In the morning she was cold and distant (which I can understand) but claimed I said things she couldn't get over. I told her I was committed to resolving our issues; I didn't want to leave her, and I loved her. 

I could tell our daughter felt some awkwardness and seemed concerned. That's really the tough point for me, knowing what a divorce would do to the poor kid. I would be willing to stick it out til she was older, but I know that means breaking off contact with my family, and putting up with monthly (or more frequent) screaming bouts everytime something happens she doesn't like (past examples: me talking to the waitress for too long, me once not addressing her as "my wife" in public, instead saying "she," the photos, texts, snooping, etc., me saying something she doesn't like that shows I'm not committed, or that leads her to doubt I'm committed, and on and on.) 

okay, I need to stop now before I freak out.


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## turnera

TomNebraska said:


> The only thing about BPD is, I've never seen her really go through a "manic" phase. She seems to be depressed, most often, and occasionally this rises beyond that to mild happiness/contentment, but depression, anger, accusations, etc. are never far away.


I think you may be confusing BPD (borderline personality disorder) with bipolar - the mania and the depression.


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## Blossom Leigh

You need the book Emotional Blackmail like yesterday.


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## TomNebraska

WorkingWife said:


> ...
> 
> I'm very curious to hear more concrete examples of dialog on both sides, as well as how H reacted. I'm really curious what other things MIL has said that sent DIL over the edge that H thinks are no big deal, plus curious to know what DIL said prior to the offenses that may have provoked them.


My wife seems to have a go to list of things my mom did that were intentionally targeted at undermining my wife, insulting her, etc. and when we talk about them and resolve them, I admit they were wrong of my mom to say, promise I'll address them next time, my wife brings up more, often ones I wasn't there to see, and therefore can't really address, or are entirely made up. 

some examples off the top of my head:

got incensed my mom put a picture on our fridge of all of us together because my mom was in the middle of the picture. of course, she didn't bring this up until after my mom's visit, and directed her complaints solely at me.
wife said something about christmas and my mom replied "Tom hates xmas!" I said nothing. I didn;t think there was anything to say. oops. okay, bad form on my part, but is that worthy of a screaming argument a week after it happens? 
mom came to stay with us while my wife was sick once, and apparently was laughing in the other room while talking to my brother while my wife was in pain. (wife states she "can never forgive this") I wasn't not present for this
also claims during the same visit, my mom did nothing to help her, and ignored her the whole time. I know this wasn't true, because I came home from work to see my mom had cooked dinner, did dishes, cleaned house, each day. 
the aforementioned "beloved" comment which lead to accusations of incest...
my step-grandma called my wife "Missy" after my wife told her not to serve our daughter some food. this lead to me having to listen to hours of how great my wife's ex-boyfriend's family was, because she could understand them, unlike my family. oh, and another random accusation of incest on my part. 

I realize that what my wife is asking is essentially for everyone to basically remain silent around her, because she can find something insulting or offensive about every statement made. it's just not reasonable. 

I think the comments about high-BPD having a child-like ability to deal with adult interactions is spot on. it's almost as though she demands some perfect understanding from everyone around her, while refusing to show any understanding whatsoever in return.


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## TomNebraska

turnera said:


> I think you may be confusing BPD (borderline personality disorder) with bipolar - the mania and the depression.


Oh. yes, I am, thanks.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Mediator... this is a tough role to be in when you cannot truly be objective with either, I do not believe you will be successful placing yourself here.

I see your wife's comments as an unhealthy insecurity that you may assist with, but she truly needs deeper couples counseling so that nothing is skirted when the hard discussions come. The depth of her counseling needs will be assessed in her ability to recognize the harm that is coming is she continues as such. The more she denies her harm in this behavior, the deeper the help is needed.

You cannot do a tit-for-tat here... both parties need to hear your boundaries for respect and your expectations for forgiveness between them. These messages must be the same, as the expectation doesn't wavier between either and hold both accountable to that common measure.

Your love is different for both, continue to apply it to both unconditionally and with openness... having to reserve that love will build more resentment and bring you into more conflict than you already show.

Does your mother stay in the house with you when she visits? If so, as an "easing into the water", have your mother stay in a hotel/motel for the first couple nights and have shorter contact visits and expand as things improve. If this is already done, then apply the boundaries for respect and your expectations to your visits but be sure that both understand these. Each may be waiting for an "olive branch" to come first from the other, here is where you lead by directing the conversations in ways you already know are safe, especially since you know the minefield in place.

You are in a tough place and you cannot do it alone, your wife's counseling is not just needed, but essential... be there for her as she travels... it is a scary journey.

Peace be with you.


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## TomNebraska

Emerging Buddhist said:


> ...
> 
> Does your mother stay in the house with you when she visits? If so, as an "easing into the water", have your mother stay in a hotel/motel for the first couple nights and have shorter contact visits and expand as things improve. ...
> 
> Peace be with you.


Thanks.

last visit, my mom stayed in a hotel, but it didn't matter. My wife still found things to get upset over, after the visit ended and my mom was gone. my mom left the picture on the fridge of all of us (wife & daughter included) I mentioned above, then left a book for my daughter in which she wrote a note that ended "_...with more love than you will ever know._" which my wife took to mean she loved our daughter more than my wife did, and my wife confronted me about it, yelled at me, tore the page out of the book. 

so, even when visits go well, they end poorly for me. she makes me pay for having my family over.


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## TomNebraska

Uptown said:


> Tom, I agree with @turnera, @MattMatt, @ne9907, and @*Deidre* that you're describing warning signs for a mental health issue that may warrant professional therapy.
> 
> I agree with you, Tom, that the irrational jealousy she exhibits both toward your mother and toward other women likely stem from the very same thing: a great fear of abandonment. That fear is one of the nine warning signs (i.e., symptoms) for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).
> 
> ...


for the record, she did have a pretty unhappy childhood. From what she's told me, her early years were the worst, and things improved and got a lot more normal during adolescence, but her parents still have a troubled marriage, and no longer life together.


----------



## ne9907

Emerging Buddhist said:


> You are in a tough place and you cannot do it alone, your wife's counseling is not just needed, but essential... be there for her as she travels... it is a scary journey.
> 
> Peace be with you.


This...

OP, gosh.... I feel so much for you and your wife...

Your wife truly needs professional help.... 

You mentioned she said "if I didn't have our daughter, I would kill myself"

This is a scary sentence to utter!! Does she have any brothers and sisters? Relatives on her side of the family, that you may reach out for help??

The thing is, your wife truly believes her behavior is okay, she sees nothing wrong with the way she is, unless she does, you will go blue in the face talking and talking to her and she will NOT get it....

I am sorry


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## TomNebraska

Uptown said:


> ...
> 
> I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply. An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of these red flags at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you.
> 
> Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you avoid a potentially very painful situation, e.g., help you decide whether your marriage is becoming toxic or whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion.Take care, Tom.


Uptown, thanks again for your post. Reading through it, and the 18 warning signs has given me some clarity here. My wife definitely exhibits a lot of these behaviors, though she does seem to have impulse control. of the 18, she exhibits issues - often extreme - in about 15-16 of them. The rewriting history, always/never statements, flipping out over small or insignificant events, irrational jealousy & control are particularly striking to me, because I was surprised how unreasonable and excessive her behavior in those regards could be, and how she was unable to recognize it in herself. 

I noticed in the other thread, you said that one shouldn't mention to someone with BPD that you suspect they have it, or they will just turn it back on you. I'm curious how I can successfully try to approach this - her getting therapy for it - without causing more strife.


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## Blossom Leigh

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html

Educate yourself as much as possible.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TomNebraska said:


> My wife seems to have a go to list of things my mom did that were intentionally targeted at undermining my wife, insulting her, etc. and when we talk about them and resolve them, I admit they were wrong of my mom to say, promise I'll address them next time, my wife brings up more, often ones I wasn't there to see, and therefore can't really address, or are entirely made up.
> 
> some examples off the top of my head:
> 
> got incensed my mom put a picture on our fridge of all of us together because my mom was in the middle of the picture. of course, she didn't bring this up until after my mom's visit, and directed her complaints solely at me.
> wife said something about christmas and my mom replied "Tom hates xmas!" I said nothing. I didn;t think there was anything to say. oops. okay, bad form on my part, but is that worthy of a screaming argument a week after it happens?
> mom came to stay with us while my wife was sick once, and apparently was laughing in the other room while talking to my brother while my wife was in pain. (wife states she "can never forgive this") I wasn't not present for this
> also claims during the same visit, my mom did nothing to help her, and ignored her the whole time. I know this wasn't true, because I came home from work to see my mom had cooked dinner, did dishes, cleaned house, each day.
> the aforementioned "beloved" comment which lead to accusations of incest...
> my step-grandma called my wife "Missy" after my wife told her not to serve our daughter some food. this lead to me having to listen to hours of how great my wife's ex-boyfriend's family was, because she could understand them, unlike my family. oh, and another random accusation of incest on my part.


No to be a complete a$$, but where is the stuff your mom said or did that was wrong? There is NOTHING in this list that requires an argument or reaction to what you are accepting. This is why Turnera called you a doormat. You post this list and then say your mom is wrong and you should have handled things better. Where?

Also, you have to define what she didn't do. You may be really sick, but it doesn't mean you get to ring a bell and I am your servant all day, with no time for myself. If it was that bad, you should be in a hospital.


----------



## the guy

I am guessing your old lady believes you aren't going anywhere.
Maybe it's time to change that.

Maybe if she thought you were confident enough to be on your own and didn't need her she wouldn't be such a pain in the @ss.

Next time she gives you shyt just tell her to hit the road and go find happiness elsewhere.

She knows you are afraid of losing her she knows you will tolerate her crap.

I think she can treat you anyway she wants you will keep your mouth shut and tolerate it.


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## TomNebraska

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No to be a complete a$$, but where is the stuff your mom said or did that was wrong? There is NOTHING in this list that requires an argument or reaction to what you are accepting. This is why Turnera called you a doormat. You post this list and then say your mom is wrong and you should have handled things better. Where?
> 
> Also, you have to define what she didn't do. You may be really sick, but it doesn't mean you get to ring a bell and I am your servant all day, with no time for myself. If it was that bad, you should be in a hospital.


"the stuff your mom did or said that was wrong"

Well, like I said, there was the coat thing. In addition to the list, there were a few other incidents my wife claims occurred when i was not present, like my mom ignoring her once, giving her the side eye, etc. I guess the point is, nothing my mom said or did was really that bad. 

Fine, I'm a doormat. I only put up with the nonsense from my wife, because I gathered from our first MC that it was important to validate feelings in order to move past problems and arguments. If I tried to defend my mom, things blew up and went to hell, so I let my wife say her piece, then calmly acknowledged her concern, and agreed my mom was wrong. Sometimes this worked, she'd thank me for listening, and it would be over. Other times, she would keep digging, pestering, bringing up other events to show my mom "hated" her, my family hated her, etc. etc. 

As I said elsewhere... we'd get in a heated 2/3 day fight once a month over this stuff and occasionally, other nonsense, sometimes more frequently like every other week. 

I know my wife is a troubled person; my mistake was thinking I could help her work through these issues and they'd resolved themselves over time as she became more secure/confident & could trust me. Instead, they just keep repeating, like a broken record. 

SO... I posted here to get some outsiders' takes.


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## norajane

You can't fix someone who is broken on the inside. If she does have abandonment issues, or other issues, she has to fix them herself. First she has to acknowledge that she HAS issues, and then she needs to take steps to recognize her triggers and her inappropriate behaviors. And once she has that, she can take steps to control herself (and her thoughts) by re-directing herself, replacing the negative behaviors (ranting for days about it, bringing up ancient and immaterial stuff over and over) with more positive behaviors (taking a deep breath and letting go).

Your mom is not persecuting her, but your wife has worn a groove in her mind that says she is. Until your wife can accept that reality and understand that the problem is in her own mind, she's not going to be any less paranoid.


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## phillybeffandswiss

TomNebraska said:


> "the stuff your mom did or said that was wrong"
> 
> Well, like I said, there was the coat thing. In addition to the list, there were a few other incidents my wife claims occurred when i was not present, like my mom ignoring her once, giving her the side eye, etc. I guess the point is, nothing my mom said or did was really that bad.


 Well, I already commented on the coat thing and the more you post, the less it sounds like your mom has done anything wrong and YOU keep feeding the monster.



> Fine, I'm a doormat. I only put up with the nonsense from my wife, because I gathered from our first MC that it was important to validate feelings in order to move past problems and arguments. If I tried to defend my mom, things blew up and went to hell, so I let my wife say her piece, then calmly acknowledged her concern, and agreed my mom was wrong. Sometimes this worked, she'd thank me for listening, and it would be over. Other times, she would keep digging, pestering, bringing up other events to show my mom "hated" her, my family hated her, etc. etc.


There is a difference between acknowledging problems and validating them. You can acknowledge your mom is a "loud, boisterous and annoying" parent, while NOT validating your wife's overreaction to every little minute stupid thing. Especially, when your words admit she hold grudges for years to feed her own problems. Heck, you won't admit your wife is a liar.

Look at what you typed again. Your wife accuses your mom of hating and ignoring her. Yet, You've seen your mom try to call your wife and SHE is the one being ignored and rejected.


----------



## WorkingWife

Thank you.

I have reached my conclusion.

Your wife is deranged. 

Along with selfish, immature, jealous, petty, and childish.

She makes no sense. If she's so hostile toward your mom that she resents a picture that your mom is in the center of, why does she want your mom to visit? 

I don't get the "Tom hates Christmas" comment being an issue unless your mom said it in a way to deliberately hurt your wife, like you wife just mentioned her big plans for Christmas and your mom blurted out "Tom hates Christmas" like "You don't even know your own husband, my son hates Christmas, your ideas will make him miserable." (Do you hate Christmas?)

The laughing in the other room while she was sick -- that shows a VERY low level of emotional maturity on your wife's part. What does she want? Everyone else to quietly mope around just because she's not feeling well? WTH?

I was visiting an aunt with MS once and she had to take a lot of naps. I cheerfully said "That's ok." and went to run errands with her sister. I didn't want her to feel bad about having to lay down so I acted like it was no big deal. Later that night she burst into tears and went off on her sister and me and started mocking me saying "That's alright!" like I was happy she couldn't do stuff with us. 

Her sister and I explained we were just trying to make it easy on her to tell us she had to lay down, not that we didn't care that she wasn't with us and she was better. But I was thinking - "Where the hell did THAT come from?!" But I adore her, and she I and it certainly was not a long lasting issue. And she does have some mental problems (paranoia for sure). And I'm pretty sure she might be bi-polar. 

Anyhow, back to your wife - that is the "me" centered thinking that guy described in the BPD post. Amazing how people can be *so* in-tuned with their own perspective yet *completely *indifferent/oblivious to anyone else's.



TomNebraska said:


> My wife seems to have a go to list of things my mom did that were intentionally targeted at undermining my wife, insulting her, etc. and when we talk about them and resolve them, I admit they were wrong of my mom to say, promise I'll address them next time, my wife brings up more, often ones I wasn't there to see, and therefore can't really address, or are entirely made up.
> 
> some examples off the top of my head:
> 
> got incensed my mom put a picture on our fridge of all of us together because my mom was in the middle of the picture. of course, she didn't bring this up until after my mom's visit, and directed her complaints solely at me.
> wife said something about christmas and my mom replied "Tom hates xmas!" I said nothing. I didn;t think there was anything to say. oops. okay, bad form on my part, but is that worthy of a screaming argument a week after it happens?
> mom came to stay with us while my wife was sick once, and apparently was laughing in the other room while talking to my brother while my wife was in pain. (wife states she "can never forgive this") I wasn't not present for this
> also claims during the same visit, my mom did nothing to help her, and ignored her the whole time. I know this wasn't true, because I came home from work to see my mom had cooked dinner, did dishes, cleaned house, each day.
> the aforementioned "beloved" comment which lead to accusations of incest...
> my step-grandma called my wife "Missy" after my wife told her not to serve our daughter some food. this lead to me having to listen to hours of how great my wife's ex-boyfriend's family was, because she could understand them, unlike my family. oh, and another random accusation of incest on my part.
> 
> I realize that what my wife is asking is essentially for everyone to basically remain silent around her, because she can find something insulting or offensive about every statement made. it's just not reasonable.
> 
> I think the comments about high-BPD having a child-like ability to deal with adult interactions is spot on. it's almost as though she demands some perfect understanding from everyone around her, while refusing to show any understanding whatsoever in return.


----------



## WorkingWife

Uptown said:


> Generally, you will not find the full-blown BPDers to be scary at all. The vast majority of them are high functioning individuals who typically exhibit a warmth, spontaneity, and childlike purity of expression that makes them very likable, fun, and easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. You typically will never see a BPDer's dark side unless you make the mistake of trying to establish a close friendship, at which point you will start triggering the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment).


Very interesting.

I did not mean scary like I think they are going to kill me in my sleep. I just mean scary like "Crap - I *married * this overgrown child? Now what..."


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## rob.gill

I think part of the problem that is that you guys are not understanding each other's attachment style. Consider reading this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Attached-Sci...p-Love-ebook/dp/B0049H9AVU/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1

Or check out this online program: betterify.us


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## TomNebraska

I've more or less come up with a path forward, so I want to thank everyone for the helpful feedback. I just have a few follow up questions. 

So I talked to my wife yesterday, and things stayed a lot calmer. I didn't broach the topic of BPD, but I did tell her I thought she still needed some additional help, and that I was telling her this because I loved her, and was willing to do whatever I had to do personally, including going to therapy myself, if that's what she wanted. 

I cited two examples of behavior I found troubling: the recurring fights, often over the same issue, that lasted for days, and the ambush tactics, snooping through my phone then attacking me with what she found. She initially reacted to this with a blank look, then hostility, telling me she saw two therapists and they concluded she was fine, then turning this back on me, saying I was the controlling one, and our fights kept recurring because she was not getting the assurances from me she asked for (blaming me for her behavior, and playing the victim in turn). 

I was struck by the fact that her behavior was exactly what would be expected by someone suffering from BPD, but dropped the discussion & questioning. 

I ended this conversation by getting her to agree not to discuss relationship issues anymore, except when we attend therapy together. I also told her I'd like to try to keep things as normal and cordial around the house as possible, so we don't get worse before having some time to work at therapy. She didn't explicitly agree, but we talked cordially for another hour, more or less on neutral topics, and I went to bed. 

My specific questions:

Is there any way to encourage someone with BPD to get the help they need? She did agree to go to therapy on her own once before, but that was months ago. She claimed the therapist told her she was fine, and ended attendance. I don't know if she discussed these issues though; I doubt it. 
The therapist we're going to see together is the same therapist she saw on her own. Any concerns?
I've noticed when she does make friends locally in her mom groups, they tend to be women with issues of their own. And she hinted she's uncomfortable with women that seem happy/successful because they'll judge her. One in particular she's started to spend time with regularly has expressed a desire to leave her own husband, and has a history of troubled past relationships, including a child from a guy who was apparently institutionalized & addicted to heroin and painkillers. And my wife's only long-term close friend also seems to have the same issues as she does, and lives in a different state (I've read that's a hallmark of BPD). They talk/text often but when her friend has come over for visits, it's always tense, awkward, and THEY end up fighting a lot. So do people with BPD seek out their own? 
She sent me an email a few weeks ago, unsolicited, before our current issues arose, warning me about "Parental Alienation Syndrome," and claiming she was afraid my mom would do this to our daughter. I'm now freaking out about this because I've read it's basically all BPD sufferers do to their children and ex-spouses in the event of a separation. How can I protect my kid from this?
During our convo yesterday, I assured her I was committed to working out our issues, and not leaving her. She seemed to fixate on this, repeating "but what if we don't?" She then asked me to promise I wouldn't go "scorched earth" on her during divorce, and I'd leave her before she got too old and unattractive to find a new husband. so is she already resolving this is over?


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## Jasel

sokillme said:


> Your wife's problem isn't really with your mom it's that she feels you would chose your mom over her. Because you kind of did. Mom, and SO relationships can be hard some times. I get it.
> 
> Really though their relationship is theirs alone. You need to say to her, "look your relationship with my Mom is on you. If you have problems with her then you need to deal with it with her. There is nothing I can do to help you with this. I will always choose and defend you, but don't ask me to be disrespectful to the woman who gave birth to me." Then when she brings it up tell her she is free to tell your mom how she feels. They are both adults you don't have to be mediator, stay out of it. I learned to do this. I treat them how I used to treat my divorced parents. It actually helped a lot. I would let them both know though you expect them to be respectful to each other and be around each other occasionally period.


I think this is the root cause of pretty much all your problems. I'd say her response was disproportionate to your mother's but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't called for. You should have taken your wife's side. That was the China of fed flags in your story. I get why she's upset.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## TomNebraska

Jasel said:


> I think this is the root cause of pretty much all your problems. I'd say her response was disproportionate to your mother's but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't called for. You should have taken your wife's side. That was the China of fed flags in your story. I get why she's upset.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


Thanks for the insight. Doesn't seem like you read the entire thread though, or even my entire post. I apologized to my wife for this, promised it wouldn't happen again, and went through marriage counseling with her for it.

and as noted elsewhere, the troubling behavior isn't strictly related to interactions with my mom, but other family members as well. It continues regardless of whether my mom has visited recently, or even had any contact with my wife, my wife will initiate conflict, either by finding old texts from my mom on my phone (and it's NOT like I text/talk with my mom very frequently either; weekly basis, if that), and accusing my relationship with my mom of being "unhealthy" or more recently "incestual" or simply out of the blue.

I'm not going to cut off contact with my family, and yet still endure hours of hostility from my wife just because she and my mom once (1) had a bad interaction 2 years ago. 

Or maybe you're trying to tell me that's reasonable? Not trying to be hostile, and I appreciate all advice, but the sniping based on a partial reading here isn't helpful.


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## Kivlor

I want to preface my post with a disclaimer: I'm not here to rag on you, so please don't take it that way. My questions are meant honestly.

Tom, have you ever stood your ground with your wife in an argument, and made her cave? When was the last time you can remember doing so?

I would wager--and it's just a hypothesis--that your W behaves this way because you permit it. What hard boundaries have you set for her over the years? How well do you guard those boundaries? I'm getting the feeling that you don't have any, and she knows it. 



> During our convo yesterday, I assured her I was committed to working out our issues, and not leaving her. She seemed to fixate on this, repeating "but what if we don't?" She then asked me to promise I wouldn't go "scorched earth" on her during divorce, and I'd leave her before she got too old and unattractive to find a new husband. so is she already resolving this is over?


Even here, you couldn't muster the resolve to stand up to her and calmly, firmly say, "Wife, if you don't work this out and start to behave like a loving Wife and a normal person, then I'll do what I have to do for me and our daughter. Whatever that is." No, you immediately caved and promised her you would not to leave her. You gave up any power you had, and placed it all in her hands.

I think you need a TON of therapy for yourself. Marital Counseling and IC for your W will do you no good until you have the sufficient backbone to hold your own when the therapists aren't around (ie in your marital home).

Are you physically active? Why don't you take a camping trip, alone, for a weekend and rough it. Kill your own fish for dinner and the whole deal. Get in touch with your inner Wild Man.


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## MattMatt

Jasel said:


> I think this is the root cause of pretty much all your problems. I'd say her response was disproportionate to your mother's but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't called for. You should have taken your wife's side. That was the China of fed flags in your story. I get why she's upset.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


*
His wife has accused him of have sexual intercourse with his mother and of turning his father into an incestuous cuckold.* 

So, yes, indeed, I'd say that was* very* disproportionate of his wife.

And that there are *lots* of red flags a-waving there. But none to do with him or his mother.


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## 3Xnocharm

Am I the only one reading this that thinks he needs to start defending his mother?? His wife is SO FAR out of line, its absurd! WHY does he need to side with her, when his mother, in reality, isn't doing anything wrong? If his mother was being hateful and abusive to his wife, then YES, he should defend wife all the way, but that is not what is going down, here. Reading what he has described her, his mother has NO CLUE about how her DIL feels about her, because instead of going to her with her concerns, like a grown up, she chooses to hammer Tom over the head with it instead. Absolute abuse. 
@TomNebraska, I feel like you are taking the absolute wrong approach here. You keep reassuring her that you will not leave. I think you need to be letting her know that if this sh!t doesn't stop, that you are OUT. She has serious, serious issues from her past with her family, that much is crystal clear, based on what you touched on about her relationship with her mother. She even mentioned suicide! You are not going to be able to fix this, and need to stop rolling over for her. She is the only one who can fix her, and I feel that until she sees the possibility of losing everything, that it isn't going to happen.


----------



## TomNebraska

Kivlor said:


> I want to preface my post with a disclaimer: I'm not here to rag on you, so please don't take it that way. My questions are meant honestly.
> 
> Tom, have you ever stood your ground with your wife in an argument, and made her cave? When was the last time you can remember doing so?
> 
> I would wager--and it's just a hypothesis--that your W behaves this way because you permit it. What hard boundaries have you set for her over the years? How well do you guard those boundaries? I'm getting the feeling that you don't have any, and she knows it.


Yes, I have stood my ground with her. after a bad week of daily fights earlier in the year, I told her I was ready to leave that night and go to a hotel. She seems to dial it back when she realizes she's pushed too far. 

I understand now that the "nice guy" routine, accepting her feelings, trying to understand her POV does not work. I get it. I see that it only leads to the cycle repeating, and actually leads my wife to get more aggressive and accusative with me (the phone snooping, etc.)



Kivlor said:


> Even here, you couldn't muster the resolve to stand up to her and calmly, firmly say, "Wife, if you don't work this out and start to behave like a loving Wife and a normal person, then I'll do what I have to do for me and our daughter. Whatever that is." No, you immediately caved and promised her you would not to leave her. You gave up any power you had, and placed it all in her hands.
> 
> I think you need a TON of therapy for yourself. Marital Counseling and IC for your W will do you no good until you have the sufficient backbone to hold your own when the therapists aren't around (ie in your marital home).
> 
> Are you physically active? Why don't you take a camping trip, alone, for a weekend and rough it. Kill your own fish for dinner and the whole deal. Get in touch with your inner Wild Man.


I was more physically active in the past. Not so much anymore. I work long hours, and if I went to the gym after, I'd be getting home at 8:30 or later. Wife complains about having to do everything by herself, dinner, put kid to bed, etc. so I come home to help with that.

Just to end this line of discussion for those who keep bringing it up: YES, I get it. I need to stop putting up with my wife's crap, set boundaries on the discussions, and stare down the inevitable consequences of it (her accusing me of being selfish, not listening to her, not agreeing with her, and whatever other threats she'll use to bully me: talking to other guys, avoiding me, withholding sex, etc.) 

I'm of the opinion that this still won't help long term. Having to learn to prepare myself to live the rest of my life with someone who has issues that aren't going to go away on their own - regardless of whether I stand up to her or not - is not a reasonable course of action.


----------



## Kivlor

3Xnocharm said:


> Am I the only one reading this that thinks he needs to start defending his mother?? His wife is SO FAR out of line, its absurd! WHY does he need to side with her, when his mother, in reality, isn't doing anything wrong? If his mother was being hateful and abusive to his wife, then YES, he should defend wife all the way, but that is not what is going down, here. Reading what he has described her, his mother has NO CLUE about how her DIL feels about her, because instead of going to her with her concerns, like a grown up, she chooses to hammer Tom over the head with it instead. Absolute abuse.
> 
> @TomNebraska, I feel like you are taking the absolute wrong approach here. You keep reassuring her that you will not leave. I think you need to be letting her know that if this sh!t doesn't stop, that you are OUT. She has serious, serious issues from her past with her family, that much is crystal clear, based on what you touched on about her relationship with her mother. She even mentioned suicide! You are not going to be able to fix this, and need to stop rolling over for her. She is the only one who can fix her, and I feel that until she sees the possibility of losing everything, that it isn't going to happen.


I was waiting to get a response from Tom before I mentioned it, but I agree. Sure he should have sided with his W in that one issue in the OP, but everything else is the W getting out of line.

@TomNebraska the next time your Wife talks bad about your mother, put a firm hand on her shoulder (to make this tactile for her) and say "Wife, you are not going to talk about my mother that way any more. Period." Then turn and walk away, and go do something fun and physical (leatherworking, woodcutting, something). 

If she follows and screams or does anything, turn to her (Just this one time, and no more after that) and say "This isn't a discussion. My mother's out of bounds for you. You'll stop now." If she continues, go get your kid, and leave the house (go get some ice cream, go for a walk, throw a frisbee and have some fun). Let your W stew on it.

You need to lay some hard boundaries. Desperately. You don't talk bad about her parents, she doesn't talk bad about yours.


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## Kivlor

TomNebraska said:


> Yes, I have stood my ground with her. after a bad week of daily fights earlier in the year, I told her I was ready to leave that night and go to a hotel. She seems to dial it back when she realizes she's pushed too far.
> 
> I understand now that the "nice guy" routine, accepting her feelings, trying to understand her POV does not work. I get it. I see that it only leads to the cycle repeating, and actually leads my wife to get more aggressive and accusative with me (the phone snooping, etc.)
> 
> 
> 
> I was more physically active in the past. Not so much anymore. I work long hours, and if I went to the gym after, I'd be getting home at 8:30 or later. Wife complains about having to do everything by herself, dinner, put kid to bed, etc. so I come home to help with that.
> 
> Just to end this line of discussion for those who keep bringing it up: YES, I get it. I need to stop putting up with my wife's crap, set boundaries on the discussions, and stare down the inevitable consequences of it (her accusing me of being selfish, not listening to her, not agreeing with her, and whatever other threats she'll use to bully me: talking to other guys, avoiding me, withholding sex, etc.)
> 
> I'm of the opinion that this still won't help long term. Having to learn to prepare myself to live the rest of my life with someone who has issues that aren't going to go away on their own - regardless of whether I stand up to her or not - is not a reasonable course of action.


Hey, if you don't have time to work out, you don't have time.

In the future, when it comes to setting boundaries, I would recommend saying "<Behavior> is unacceptable and I'm not going to put up with it." And if it happens again, do something. Never say "I'm ready to spend the night in a hotel". Tell her "You need to go spend the night somewhere else if you're going to be like that".

It's an issue of strength vs weakness. When you say "I'm ready to <X>" because of something, you're just placing a threat out there and it looks like you are bargaining. Instead, if you're ready to spend the night in a hotel, then just take your coat, and say "I'll talk to you tomorrow." Then leave. No bargaining, pure strength. 

You want your W to respect you? Don't give her a choice in the matter. Respect is commanded, not demanded. Learn to command it. It's going to be really hard, but you can do it if you dig deep.

As to not being able to fix your W, well, that may be true. But you won't know until you fix yourself, because as long as you're broken you've absolutely zero chance of fixing her. 

Right now, without seeing you act from a position of strength, no one knows whether or not you can right this ship. That's an answer that can only be found after you've done what you can.


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## TomNebraska

3Xnocharm said:


> Am I the only one reading this that thinks he needs to start defending his mother?? His wife is SO FAR out of line, its absurd! WHY does he need to side with her, when his mother, in reality, isn't doing anything wrong? If his mother was being hateful and abusive to his wife, then YES, he should defend wife all the way, but that is not what is going down, here. Reading what he has described her, his mother has NO CLUE about how her DIL feels about her, because instead of going to her with her concerns, like a grown up, she chooses to hammer Tom over the head with it instead. Absolute abuse.


yeah, that's what I realized this week, which is why I started posting here, instead of silently bearing the burden, trying to resolve it myself with my wife. 

Another thing that just happened: so my mom sent our daughter a book of stickers, along with a note saying hi, she loves us (all three of us), and enclosing a picture of me playing with stickers when I was 5. Came in the mail yesterday.

I left it on the table this morning, and then took the note and picture with me to work, figuring my wife would read it and find something to complain about. 

Well, I get a text from my wife asking where the note from my mom is, so I call her, read her the note, & tell her it included a picture of me as a little kid, which I know bothered her before, so I took it to work. (my mom has sent pictures of me as a kid to our daughter/my wife on occasion, and wife has always reacted negatively to this).

Wife's reaction: says of course it bothers her because my mom is.,quote: "just trying to show I'm still her son, and a little boy to her" (Is that true? normal? Do mom's do that? is she sick? Incestual?), and then says she's upset that *I *would do this, knowing we're trying to work out these issues right now.

This is typical of the sort of things we fight about, not necessarily from my mom either. A waitress might smile to me, and ask if I need a refill on my coke, I might look at a girl in public, wife might ask me a question and not get the answer she wants, I might say I like a movie my wife thinks is bad... all of these things show I'm not a committed husband, I'm a bad father, I'm evil, I'm a cheater, etc. ...


----------



## Kivlor

TomNebraska said:


> yeah, that's what I realized this week, which is why I started posting here, instead of silently bearing the burden, trying to resolve it myself with my wife. Not necessarily defending my mother, but to stop patronizing, and tolerating the abusive, controlling, behavior.
> 
> Another thing that just happened: so my mom sent our daughter a book of stickers, along with a note saying hi, she loves us (all three of us), and enclosing a picture of me playing with stickers when I was 5. Came in the mail yesterday.
> 
> I left it on the table this morning, and then took the note and picture with me to work, figuring my wife would read it and find something to complain about.
> 
> Well, I get a text from my wife asking where the note from my mom is, so I call her, tell her it included a picture of me as a little kid, which I know bothered her before, so I took it to work. (my mom has sent pictures of me as a kid to our daughter/my wife on occasion, and wife has always reacted negatively to this).
> 
> Wife's reaction: says of course it bothers her because my mom is.,quote: "just trying to show I'm still her son, and a little boy to her" (Is that normal? Do mom's do that? is she sick? Incestual?), and then says she's upset that *I *would do this, knowing we're trying to work out these issues right now.
> 
> This is typical of the sort of things we fight about, not necessarily from my mom either. A waitress might smile to me, and ask if I need a refill on my coke, I might look at a girl in public, wife might ask me a question and not get the answer she wants, I might say I like a movie my wife thinks is bad... all of these things show I'm not a committed husband, I'm a bad father, I'm evil, I'm a cheater, etc. ...


I really think you'll benefit from analyzing your actions with the question of "does this act appear strong or weak to other people?"

You had to hide the stickers to avoid a fight. When you know full well that she will pick a fight anyways. You acted from a position of weakness, and you displayed that weakness, by hiding things. 

Hide nothing. When your Wife wants a fight, neither give it to her nor run from it. And by that I mean rise to meet her challenge, and tell her "This WILL stop NOW." Make your voice deeper, raise it (but don't yell) and invade her personal space. You are running with your tail between your legs. Learn to be intimidating instead of intimidated.

You absolutely should not hide a letter from your mother to your daughter, nor a picture of you playing with stickers as a child. This is pure weakness. If your Wife ever brings up incest again, or even implies it, tell her "Out. Get out of my house. You can spend the night somewhere else. I'll not have you talk like that about me or my mother. Out." And when you do it, you firmly grip her by her shoulder and her arm and you walk her out the door. And when you shut the door, you say "F*ck YOU."

I said it earlier. You would benefit from taking a camping trip and roughing it. Get in touch with that primal side. Cultivate your Wild Man. You need it.


----------



## happy as a clam

I'm sorry but your wife is loony, and if you read the statistics on BPDers it ain't pretty. Personally, I'd be formulating an exit plan for you and your daughter. 

At the very least, get some serious counseling for yourself to learn how to cope with this. And some counseling for your daughter is in order too... The damage these people do to loved ones is just beyond comprehension.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM1963

Tom,
The thing about Uptown is that his grasp of this particular dynamic is better than anyone on TAM. 

As he says there is a spectrum - like for autism - from mild to severe. 

Truth is your wife is a very fearful person. Just like her mother is. 

So let me augment Uptowns comments with a few specific suggestions. 
These are all based on a long happy marriage to someone with a milder version of this condition. 

The most helpful thing you can do is both the hardest and the simplest. 

But first, a couple definitions will help. 

Emotional synchronization - This is the process whereby two spouses, initially in very different emotional states, come to share a common state. 

Your wife wants you two to be emotionally synchronized. There is no malice to it. It's simply a desire, like being hungry. 

The situation with your mom is making her anxious/fearful. 

So there are only two outcomes that will bring a conversation about your mom to satisfactory completion for your wife:
- Either she succeeds in making you as anxious as she is
OR
- You succeed in helping her achieve the state of calm you start out in

If you can stay truly calm and stick with some simple themes, this might get better. 

Babe,
I know my mom frustrates you. She isn't a threat to you. Or to us. I'm committed to you. 

------
That said, I'm warning you in advance. Your wife has a goal here. It is clear and it might even be her highest priority in life right now. It's to cut your mom out of your life. Completely. 

So - you have a couple options on that front. 

Uptown may have a better idea - but - my thinking goes like so:

Babe,
I'm starting to feel like you want me to cut my mom out of our life. Am I wrong about that? 

------
She will almost certainly deny. And act shocked and outraged - LOL

If so, best move is to say: Good, because I really want to see her, and I wasn't sure if you prefer me to go visit her, or have her visit us here. 

But if she admits to her real goal, your move is this: If you love me, you I'll support my relationship with my mom. 

-------
Rinse and repeat as needed: If you love me, you will support my relationship with my mom.

------
I also think: Babe, you seem so upset about this, I think we should see a therapist together, so they can help us with this. 





Uptown said:


> No, WorkingWife, medication won't make a dent in BPD itself. But medication nonetheless will be prescribed if the BPDer sees a psychiatrist. The reason is that anyone exhibiting strong BPD traits almost certainly exhibits one or two co-occurring "clinical disorders" as well. These clinical disorders include conditions like bipolar, GAD, ADHD, PTSD, and depression -- all of which can be treated with medication. (Bipolar, for example, is caused by gradual changes in body chemistry and medication like lithium can offset those changes.) In addition, a full-blown BPDer also has about an 80% chance of exhibiting another personality disorder too (e.g., Narcissistic PD or Avoidant PD).
> 
> Yes, that's why BPD is said to be a "personality disorder." Actually, the nine defining traits listed in the APA's diagnostic manual do not describe the underlying disorder at all. Nobody has yet proven what it is that causes BPD. Instead, those traits describe only the behavioral symptoms. At low to moderate levels, those symptoms are basic ego defenses we all have and which are essential to our survival. They become a problem only when they are too strong.
> 
> Sorry about the scary part. Generally, BPD symptoms -- even strong BPD symptoms -- are so common that they are not scary at all. We all behave like full-blown BPDers 24/7 when we are young children and most of us start behaving that way again (e.g., temper tantrums and identity issues) for a couple of years during our mid-teens. When you see very strong BPD behavior in an adult, what you're usually seeing is NOT the lifetime persistent problem I described above.
> 
> Rather, you usually are seeing a temporary flareup of the normal BPD traits everyone has. These "flareups" typically are caused by powerful hormone changes (and to a lesser extent by drug abuse). The hormone changes include puberty, PMS, pregnancy, postpartum, and perimenopause. As you would expect, women are more vulnerable to hormone changes due to their childbearing role and thus tend to exhibit more temporary flareups than men. The incidence of lifetime full-blown BPD, however, is the same for both men and women (6%).
> 
> Generally, you will not find the full-blown BPDers to be scary at all. The vast majority of them are high functioning individuals who typically exhibit a warmth, spontaneity, and childlike purity of expression that makes them very likable, fun, and easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. You typically will never see a BPDer's dark side unless you make the mistake of trying to establish a close friendship, at which point you will start triggering the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment).


----------



## MEM1963

Tom,
I agree with Kivlors first sentence. 

The rest is all textbook male on male dominance behavior. Completely ineffective in a marriage.

Anger is a secondary emotion that comes from hurt or fear. And people only resort to physical intimidation when they feel mentally or emotionally weaker than their partner. 

The incest thing - it didn't happen - so there's no basis for getting angry. There is a basis for saying: 

Why don't you trust me? 

In fact that is a key go to move in all these situations. Maybe that woman was looking at me. So what. Do you think I'm a cheating spouse? 

And then repeat: It feels like you don't trust me. 








Kivlor said:


> I really think you'll benefit from analyzing your actions with the question of "does this act appear strong or weak to other people?"
> 
> You had to hide the stickers to avoid a fight. When you know full well that she will pick a fight anyways. You acted from a position of weakness, and you displayed that weakness, by hiding things.
> 
> Hide nothing. When your Wife wants a fight, neither give it to her nor run from it. And by that I mean rise to meet her challenge, and tell her "This WILL stop NOW." Make your voice deeper, raise it (but don't yell) and invade her personal space. You are running with your tail between your legs. Learn to be intimidating instead of intimidated.
> 
> You absolutely should not hide a letter from your mother to your daughter, nor a picture of you playing with stickers as a child. This is pure weakness. If your Wife ever brings up incest again, or even implies it, tell her "Out. Get out of my house. You can spend the night somewhere else. I'll not have you talk like that about me or my mother. Out." And when you do it, you firmly grip her by her shoulder and her arm and you walk her out the door. And when you shut the door, you say "F*ck YOU."
> 
> I said it earlier. You would benefit from taking a camping trip and roughing it. Get in touch with that primal side. Cultivate your Wild Man. You need it.


----------



## ne9907

The more I read this, the more I am convinced your wife might be a child sexual abuse survivor. Your wife's father might have molested, hence her reaction and accusing you of incest. I am sorry, she needs help as in yesterday.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MEM1963 said:


> Tom,
> I agree with Kivlors first sentence.
> 
> The rest is all textbook male on male dominance behavior. Completely ineffective in a marriage.


While I don't agree about taking her by the shoulder, taking on a dominant role when it comes to this situation, I believe is the only way that there is any possibility at all of her "getting it". Everything else is too passive, as he has been doing all along. She needs to see that he is serious, that he deserves respect and that she stands to lose EVERYTHING if she continues down this hateful path.


----------



## norajane

TomNebraska said:


> YJust to end this line of discussion for those who keep bringing it up: YES, I get it. I need to stop putting up with my wife's crap, set boundaries on the discussions, and stare down the inevitable consequences of it (her accusing me of being selfish, not listening to her, not agreeing with her, and whatever other threats she'll use to bully me: talking to other guys, avoiding me, withholding sex, etc.)
> 
> I'm of the opinion that this still won't help long term. *Having to learn to prepare myself to live the rest of my life with someone who has issues that aren't going to go away on their own - regardless of whether I stand up to her or not - is not a reasonable course of action.*


You actually don't have to live the rest of your life with someone who won't acknowledge she has issues and really seeks help for them. You really, truly don't. I know you want to stay married, but if that's not healthy for you, and your marriage has devolved to accusations of incest and constant fighting, you don't have to stay married.

That's where the individual counseling for you comes in - seek your own therapy to figure out what you want out of life and develop the conviction that this is your life, too, and you won't be held hostage by someone incapable of being in a healthy relationship.


----------



## MEM1963

I honestly believe her path is fear driven, not hate driven.

And emotional dominance is the ONLY thing that matters in a non violent marriage. 

Right now her dominance is based entirely on HER ability to synchronize Tom to her emotional state. 

Until he reverses the polarity of that dynamic - they are stuck. 




Kivlor said:


> I really think you'll benefit from analyzing your actions with the question of "does this act appear strong or weak to other people?"
> 
> You had to hide the stickers to avoid a fight. When you know full well that she will pick a fight anyways. You acted from a position of weakness, and you displayed that weakness, by hiding things.
> 
> Hide nothing. When your Wife wants a fight, neither give it to her nor run from it. And by that I mean rise to meet her challenge, and tell her "This WILL stop NOW." Make your voice deeper, raise it (but don't yell) and invade her personal space. You are running with your tail between your legs. Learn to be intimidating instead of intimidated.
> 
> You absolutely should not hide a letter from your mother to your daughter, nor a picture of you playing with stickers as a child. This is pure weakness. If your Wife ever brings up incest again, or even implies it, tell her "Out. Get out of my house. You can spend the night somewhere else. I'll not have you talk like that about me or my mother. Out." And when you do it, you firmly grip her by her shoulder and her arm and you walk her out the door. And when you shut the door, you say "F*ck YOU."
> 
> I said it earlier. You would benefit from taking a camping trip and roughing it. Get in touch with that primal side. Cultivate your Wild Man. You need it.





3Xnocharm said:


> While I don't agree about taking her by the shoulder, taking on a dominant role when it comes to this situation, I believe is the only way that there is any possibility at all of her "getting it". Everything else is too passive, as he has been doing all along. She needs to see that he is serious, that he deserves respect and that she stands to lose EVERYTHING if she continues down this hateful path.


----------



## MEM1963

I agree with this. 

That said, if your partner has control and abandonment issues its best not to mention divorce until you really are willing to do it. 

A little humor often goes a long way. 

For example: I'm starting to think you should have married an orphan.

Gradually escalating to: 

- I'm starting to thing you should be married to an orphan. 
And then
- It's beginning to feel like you can't be happily married to me. 
And then
- Do you really want to be married to me?
Finally
- I feel like this marriage is failing, and won't survive much longer 






norajane said:


> You actually don't have to live the rest of your life with someone who won't acknowledge she has issues and really seeks help for them. You really, truly don't. I know you want to stay married, but if that's not healthy for you, and your marriage has devolved to accusations of incest and constant fighting, you don't have to stay married.
> 
> That's where the individual counseling for you comes in - seek your own therapy to figure out what you want out of life and develop the conviction that this is your life, too, and you won't be held hostage by someone incapable of being in a healthy relationship.


----------



## JohnA

Actually I think standing up to her is the wrong approach. Instead Tom needs to Gray Rock her. 

Going ?Gray Rock? with a Narcissist | Narcissist Support

What Therapists Don't Tell You About Divorcing A High-Conflict Personality

Are the Children of a BPD Parent Likely to Suffer Emotional Abuse? ~ BPDFamily Video

Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder

https://samruck2.wordpress.com/

In short your wife lives in her own reality and can only be dealt within that reality. They say a person cannot be hypnotized to do something they would no do in real life, like murder, but while hyponotized if told their child is under attack they can kill. (I don't if the would not part is true, but in terms of gray rocking it is,)


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## Blondilocks

Your mom sent that picture out of love for her grandchild and to share with her. A normal wife would have gotten a kick out of it, too. Somewhere along the line, your mom became the equivalent of the devil to your wife. I wonder if her mother is putting forth any of these bizarre ideas. Frankly, your wife sounds looney tunes.

Have you ever told your wife how her accusations sound completely ridiculous?


----------



## MEM1963

Perhaps: 

Babe, you seem really upset, let's discuss this with a counselor

And if she resists: This is hurting our marriage. And I don't know how to help you. If you aren't willing to attend MC, I will go to IC to learn how to address this topic with you. 


Is more constructive than:

You are definitely mentally ill and you sound like a wack job. 







Blondilocks said:


> Your mom sent that picture out of love for her grandchild and to share with her. A normal wife would have gotten a kick out of it, too. Somewhere along the line, your mom became the equivalent of the devil to your wife. I wonder if her mother is putting forth any of these bizarre ideas. Frankly, your wife sounds looney tunes.
> 
> Have you ever told your wife how her accusations sound completely ridiculous?


----------



## Blondilocks

But, but, the second one is true!

I understand what you're saying, Mem. Maybe, this woman has been pvssy footed around long enough. Maybe, she really, truly, doesn't know she sounds like she's nuts. Plus, she talks to her mom every day and (apparently) her mom is none too tight with reality.

How about a VAR so she can later hear exactly what came out of her mouth?


----------



## Kivlor

MEM1963 said:


> Tom,
> I agree with Kivlors first sentence.
> 
> The rest is all textbook male on male dominance behavior. Completely ineffective in a marriage.
> 
> Anger is a secondary emotion that comes from hurt or fear. And people only resort to physical intimidation when they feel mentally or emotionally weaker than their partner.
> 
> The incest thing - it didn't happen - so there's no basis for getting angry. There is a basis for saying:
> 
> Why don't you trust me?
> 
> In fact that is a key go to move in all these situations. Maybe that woman was looking at me. So what. Do you think I'm a cheating spouse?
> 
> And then repeat: It feels like you don't trust me.


I love your stuff MEM. Even when we disagree. And I think you bring up a point that I wasn't clear enough on. So I want to clarify a bit, because if what I recommended is implemented wrong it could be disastrous.

None of my recommendations should ever be done in anger. It would defeat the purpose--because it shows her she can emotionally get the best of you. Even the "F*ck You." has to be in an even, calm, voice. You can raise your voice, but yelling is out. No anger. Just calm, direct, firm. No passive aggressive behaviors. No pining or crying. No hiding. Direct. Strong.

The reason for physical touch is that it is a conveyance of a message. She has no boundaries, and this will convey that she's about to have them, whether she likes it or not. Under no circumstances do you injure her when you touch her. Use a light but firm hand. This isn't macho man to man stuff. 

What you don't do is strike her physically, or yank her around, or anything violent. You can be physical without violence. You don't scream. You don't blow up emotionally. You don't cry. You set a firm, serious tone. And this is a very fine line to walk, because if you take it too far, things are going to get pretty nasty. But I think she needs this to be tactile to her. She needs to feel that he's taking control, not just hear it. Because she's out of control, and nothing short of that will stop her.

I understand the trepidation about standing up for yourself. We're supposed to be nice, and gentle, and kind and all that stuff. And you still can be, when it is called for. But you have to be strong, resolute and unyielding when that is called for as well. I also understand the fear about physically touching a woman when she doesn't want you to. But if you want to stop an abusive woman, you're going to have to get over that fear.


----------



## Kivlor

MEM1963 said:


> I honestly believe her path is fear driven, not hate driven.
> 
> And emotional dominance is the ONLY thing that matters in a non violent marriage.
> 
> Right now her dominance is based entirely on HER ability to synchronize Tom to her emotional state.
> 
> Until he reverses the polarity of that dynamic - they are stuck.


I don't think it's either. I think she is behaving like this for the same reason that all bullies behave like bullies: *Because she can.*

Why do some people abuse their kids? *Because they can*. 
How do you convince them to stop? *You don't, you make them stop.* You don't give bullies or abusers the choice to abuse you or not. You put an end to the problem yourself. Because if you don't, you only have yourself to blame for the abuse.

It's a tautology, I know. But it's the reality we live in. People aren't always logical. 

Regardless, I reserve judgement on the Wife and whether or not this M can be saved until we see Tom stand up, without yelling, without threatening, and making her cave in to him; and we hear back on how it went. I expect the first few times will fail. That's life, we don't win every battle.


----------



## MEM1963

Blond,

It absolutely is true. 

And in a concerned tone it's ok to ask: 

Do you realize how crazy you sound? Because if you don't realize it, I am seriously concerned that you have some major mental health issues that I'm not equipped to deal with. 

And I'm not going to engage in further discussions about my mother UNTIL you begin counseling. 

See how that works. While he can't keep her from speaking. He can choose to not respond AT ALL to what she says.

I do think she's going to take Tom to the mat on this. She's going to play a game of divorce brinksmanship with him. 




Blondilocks said:


> But, but, the second one is true!
> 
> I understand what you're saying, Mem. Maybe, this woman has been pvssy footed around long enough. Maybe, she really, truly, doesn't know she sounds like she's nuts. Plus, she talks to her mom every day and (apparently) her mom is none too tight with reality.
> 
> How about a VAR so she can later hear exactly what came out of her mouth?


----------



## TomNebraska

Blondilocks said:


> But, but, the second one is true!
> 
> I understand what you're saying, Mem. Maybe, this woman has been pvssy footed around long enough. Maybe, she really, truly, doesn't know she sounds like she's nuts. Plus, she talks to her mom every day and (apparently) her mom is none too tight with reality.
> 
> How about a VAR so she can later hear exactly what came out of her mouth?


I've thought about a VAR. I'd definitely get one, and maybe even a go-pro for video evidence if I did leave her. I'd proudly wear it for every interaction with her. 

her mom seems to exhibit a lot of the same issues my wife does. though my wife seems at least somewhat capable of empathy, unlike her mom. My wife cares for our daughter, comforts her when she cries, and expresses affection. On occasion, she'll be reassuring to me if I had a bad day, etc. 

I remember one incident, after our daughter was born. Wife, MIL and myself were at the mall. Wife was trying on clothes, and having trouble fitting into her usual size (she had just given birth). I guess my MIL always criticized her weight (which is odd, because MIL is short and stocky and my wife is not). Anyway, my wife broke down crying, and I went to hug her. Could not believe the MIL had no reaction whatsoever... just stood there looking at us with a blank look on her face. Never seen a mother _not _comfort a crying daughter.


----------



## soccermom2three

The picture thing? Your wife's thinking is really bizarre. When we took our daughter to Disneyland for the first time, we took a photo of her with Winnie the Pooh. When we showed my mom, she found a photo of me at the same age at Disneyland with Winnie the Pooh. I have them together on a scrapbook page. It's super cute. Not weird or creepy at all.


----------



## richie33

She has issues. I would be worried about the stuff she could put in your child's head.


----------



## TomNebraska

richie33 said:


> She has issues. I would be worried about the stuff she could put in your child's head.


Yes, thanks, I am extremely worried about this, as noted several times in the thread.

Sounds like - if worst comes to worst - I'll just have to accept that she's going to screw with our kid and do my best to mitigate the damage, emotion, stress, and what not.


----------



## Blondilocks

Is your wife Chinese?


----------



## richie33

TomNebraska said:


> Yes, thanks, I am extremely worried about this, as noted several times in the thread.
> 
> Sounds like - if worst comes to worst - I'll just have to accept that she's going to screw with our kid and do my best to mitigate the damage, emotion, stress, and what not.


Good luck to you. I am sure others have told you to record these outburst.


----------



## TomNebraska

soccermom2three said:


> The picture thing? Your wife's thinking is really bizarre. When we took our daughter to Disneyland for the first time, we took a photo of her with Winnie the Pooh. When we showed my mom, she found a photo of me at the same age at Disneyland with Winnie the Pooh. I have them together on a scrapbook page. It's super cute. Not weird or creepy at all.


Wait, you mean your husband *didn't *accuse your mom of trying to show you were still her little girl, get irate when you reassuringly expressed her intentions were positive, then refused to talk to you for the next several hours, and remained in a negative funk toward you for the next two or three days?


----------



## TomNebraska

Blondilocks said:


> Is your wife Chinese?


far from it.


----------



## mariemount12

I didn't read all the responses, just your original post - Your wife reminds me of one of my best friends, in regards to being jealous or controlling over her boyfriend's mother also.
It sounds like your wife could be a very jealous / insecure person. She may be jealous of your relationship with your mother. She sees you as *hers* and probably dislikes you doing anything to stick up for your mom, because to her, you are hers and she should be #1. 

My best friend had an issue with her mother-in-law, because she did not drive and expected her son to drop her off places. She said her mom was needy and needed to "cut the cord". This kind of behaviour is not healthy, this is your MOTHER!!!!!!! If anything, a man who is close to his mother and treats her well, is a very GOOD sign he will be a great husband in my opinion.

I am sorry you are stuck in between, if your mother is also being rude to your wife, that is not fair either. Your wife and mother sound like they just have very clashing personalities, that does happen and they just both need to keep things civil out of respect for you! There is nothing worse than having family not get along and being stuck in between two people you love.

I would talk to them both separately and try and make them agree to get along. If they have nothing nice to say, don't say it. If they are in a mood and can't get along together, don't hang out.
I would stand up for yourself and make it known you won't accept this behaviour from either one of them. They both have to realize they are equally important to you, in different ways ofcourse.

The part where your wife mentions incest, is really effed up and I hope she said that out of anger and doesn't really think that, or she does need to see a therapist.

Hope this gets better for you!


----------



## MEM1963

Tom,

How far do you live from your mom?

Faced with an ultimatum - will you divorce your wife or disown your mother?






TomNebraska said:


> Wait, you mean your husband *didn't *accuse your mom of trying to show you were still her little girl, get irate when you reassuringly expressed her intentions were positive, then refused to talk to you for the next several hours, and remained in a negative funk toward you for the next two or three days?


----------



## MEM1963

Kivlor,
My concern about any physical contact is that - crazy angry controlling people lie.

Men, being bigger sometimes employ physical violence. 

Women, being smaller often employ 'state' violence by making false statements to the police. 

Wife: He 'grabbed me' I was afraid for my life?
Husband: I put my hands on her shoulders, I didn't grab her.

It is WAY better to be able to say: I did not touch her.

Note: This is a woman who is capable of anything if she feels like she is losing control.






Kivlor said:


> I love your stuff MEM. Even when we disagree. And I think you bring up a point that I wasn't clear enough on. So I want to clarify a bit, because if what I recommended is implemented wrong it could be disastrous.
> 
> None of my recommendations should ever be done in anger. It would defeat the purpose--because it shows her she can emotionally get the best of you. Even the "F*ck You." has to be in an even, calm, voice. You can raise your voice, but yelling is out. No anger. Just calm, direct, firm. No passive aggressive behaviors. No pining or crying. No hiding. Direct. Strong.
> 
> The reason for physical touch is that it is a conveyance of a message. She has no boundaries, and this will convey that she's about to have them, whether she likes it or not. Under no circumstances do you injure her when you touch her. Use a light but firm hand. This isn't macho man to man stuff.
> 
> What you don't do is strike her physically, or yank her around, or anything violent. You can be physical without violence. You don't scream. You don't blow up emotionally. You don't cry. You set a firm, serious tone. And this is a very fine line to walk, because if you take it too far, things are going to get pretty nasty. But I think she needs this to be tactile to her. She needs to feel that he's taking control, not just hear it. Because she's out of control, and nothing short of that will stop her.
> 
> I understand the trepidation about standing up for yourself. We're supposed to be nice, and gentle, and kind and all that stuff. And you still can be, when it is called for. But you have to be strong, resolute and unyielding when that is called for as well. I also understand the fear about physically touching a woman when she doesn't want you to. But if you want to stop an abusive woman, you're going to have to get over that fear.


----------



## farsidejunky

I agree with the brinksmanship analysis.

I also believe that she will fold like a bad poker hand the moment she believes he is not bluffing.



MEM1963 said:


> Blond,
> 
> It absolutely is true.
> 
> And in a concerned tone it's ok to ask:
> 
> Do you realize how crazy you sound? Because if you don't realize it, I am seriously concerned that you have some major mental health issues that I'm not equipped to deal with.
> 
> And I'm not going to engage in further discussions about my mother UNTIL you begin counseling.
> 
> See how that works. While he can't keep her from speaking. He can choose to not respond AT ALL to what she says.
> 
> I do think she's going to take Tom to the mat on this. She's going to play a game of divorce brinksmanship with him.


----------



## turnera

Tom, I suggest you start going to IC by yourself. Your IC will be able to help you chart better responses and possible turn this around.


----------



## Kivlor

MEM1963 said:


> Kivlor,
> My concern about any physical contact is that - crazy angry controlling people lie.
> 
> Men, being bigger sometimes employ physical violence.
> 
> Women, being smaller often employ 'state' violence by making false statements to the police.
> 
> Wife: He 'grabbed me' I was afraid for my life?
> Husband: I put my hands on her shoulders, I didn't grab her.
> 
> It is WAY better to be able to say: I did not touch her.
> 
> Note: This is a woman who is capable of anything if she feels like she is losing control.


I definitely see your point MEM. It's valid advice. Just not what I'd do, or recommend. I think we see the same situation, and even the same dangers, and just have different conclusions. You are asking OP to place hope in the mercy and empathy of his tormentor. I don't believe in hope. My experiences led me down a different path. 

These are the kind of people who use physical abuse until it stops working. Then they use psychological abuse, until their victim stands up to them. Then they use the cops, and even go so far as self harm, and blaming the bruises on their victim, until that victim either flees completely or they show that they will resist, even in the face of the state.

OP's Wife *needs* to control him. This is a compulsion for her. She is not going to relinquish control, it must be *taken* from her. Asking her to stop won't stop her. When she sees that her power is slipping, she is going to get desperate, and this _will_ escalate. It can't be avoided. When the day comes that she realizes what's happening, whether the OP gets physically intimidating with her or not, I'd place a wager that she'll call the cops and lie. She's displayed the signs.

OP has an out of control Wife. She is behaving that way because she is in control and knows it. It is wishful thinking that she will somehow magically develop empathy when he asks her politely to quit, or asks her to go to counseling. She'll remember what empathy is when she's on the other end of the stick, weak, vulnerable, and completely lacking any control. Then OP can work with her to determine what can be done with their marriage, and negotiate from a position of strength as to how much control she should have in their lives.

ETA: MEM I actually hope you're right. I'd rather that be the case. It's just not the reality I lived, so admittedly, I am letting experience color my advice here.


----------



## MEM1963

Kivlor,

The sad thing is - the OP hasn't answered the simple question I asked.

If his wife continues to force the issue - disown mom or divorce wife.






Kivlor said:


> I definitely see your point MEM. It's valid advice. Just not what I'd do, or recommend. I think we see the same situation, and even the same dangers, and just have different conclusions. You are asking OP to place hope in the mercy and empathy of his tormentor. I don't believe in hope. My experiences led me down a different path.
> 
> These are the kind of people who use physical abuse until it stops working. Then they use psychological abuse, until their victim stands up to them. Then they use the cops, and even go so far as self harm, and blaming the bruises on their victim, until that victim either flees completely or they show that they will resist, even in the face of the state.
> 
> OP's Wife *needs* to control him. This is a compulsion for her. She is not going to relinquish control, it must be *taken* from her. Asking her to stop won't stop her. When she sees that her power is slipping, she is going to get desperate, and this _will_ escalate. It can't be avoided. When the day comes that she realizes what's happening, whether the OP gets physically intimidating with her or not, I'd place a wager that she'll call the cops and lie. She's displayed the signs.
> 
> OP has an out of control Wife. She is behaving that way because she is in control and knows it. It is wishful thinking that she will somehow magically develop empathy when he asks her politely to quit, or asks her to go to counseling. She'll remember what empathy is when she's on the other end of the stick, weak, vulnerable, and completely lacking any control. Then OP can work with her to determine what can be done with their marriage, and negotiate from a position of strength as to how much control she should have in their lives.
> 
> ETA: MEM I actually hope you're right. I'd rather that be the case. It's just not the reality I lived, so admittedly, I am letting experience color my advice here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No, not sad at all. It is a pretty tough question to answer, give him a day or so to think.


----------



## MEM1963

It is not a tough question. At all.

Everyone makes concessions to have a workable marriage. 

Pressing for certain types of concessions - is clear evidence of mental illness. 

Note that the diseased party speaks to mommy many times a week but spent days throwing a tantrum over a photo. 

People with serious abandonment issues will consume you if you let them. 






phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, not sad at all. It is a pretty tough question to answer, give him a day or so to think.


----------



## turnera

First, all this is just like I said - sh*t testing. And the correct answer to it is to NOT go along with it. I don't see you doing that yet. Have you?

Second, you have to start acting like the head of the family. If she's sending YOUR money to HER family and also dragging your mom through the mud, I suggest putting your foot down the next time she wants to send money to her family. "Wife, how about this: If you can go a full month without saying something about my mother, at the end of that month, I'll send some money to your parents. Deal?"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM1963 said:


> It is not a tough question. At all.


 Yes, it is a tough question. It is a possible marriage ending question. No, not sad at all.




> Everyone makes concessions to have a workable marriage.
> 
> types of concessions - is clear evidence of mental illness.
> 
> Note that the diseased party speaks to mommy many times a week but spent days throwing a tantrum over a photo.
> 
> People with serious abandonment issues will consume you if you let them.


 Yes and none of this makes the question any easier to answer. It actually makes it harder. So, give him a day or so.


----------



## JohnA

Unless you are willing to live within her crazy reality and become expert at manipulating her within that reality just divorce. Your call and it can be done with some success but with a lot of crazy in your child's life. Do you really want to live like this?


----------



## Kivlor

MEM1963 said:


> Kivlor,
> 
> The sad thing is - the OP hasn't answered the simple question I asked.
> 
> If his wife continues to force the issue - disown mom or divorce wife.


It is sad, but I can also see the difficulty in this. They've got a kid which adds to it. You and I may not have a hard time with this decision, but I imagine part of that is our experiences and attitudes. MEM, you've set hard boundaries for yourself for a while, and because of that you know how you'd handle this. I know what I will and won't tolerate too, and I convey it clearly. Sadly, I get the impression that OP hasn't done much boundary setting and maintenance over the years with his W. This is a mountain for him to climb. And he doesn't have any mountain climbing gear, and he likely doesn't have any experience with it either. It's going to be difficult for him.


----------



## frusdil

TomNebraska said:


> Another thing that just happened: so my mom sent our daughter a book of stickers, along with a note saying hi, she loves us (all three of us), and enclosing a picture of me playing with stickers when I was 5. Came in the mail yesterday.
> 
> I left it on the table this morning, and then took the note and picture with me to work, figuring my wife would read it and find something to complain about.
> 
> Well, I get a text from my wife asking where the note from my mom is, so I call her, read her the note, & tell her it included a picture of me as a little kid, which I know bothered her before, so I took it to work. (my mom has sent pictures of me as a kid to our daughter/my wife on occasion, and wife has always reacted negatively to this).
> 
> Wife's reaction: says of course it bothers her because my mom is.,quote: "just trying to show I'm still her son, and a little boy to her" (Is that true? normal? Do mom's do that? is she sick? Incestual?), and then says she's upset that *I *would do this, knowing we're trying to work out these issues right now.


:surprise: :wtf: Seriously???

Full disclosure I have HUGE issues with my inlaws, as I said in my first post on this thread. I can't stand them, they've never liked me and have always thought me not good enough for their son. Last year I finally took a stand and said enough. I've not seen or spoken to them for over a year now. Hubby has, but I will not.

I'll also admit I find it creepy when MIL texts hubby and signs off "Love Mummy". Hubby hates it too.

But your wife's reaction to the photo??? I'm friggin' speechless! That's insane!!

I strongly disagree that you should leave though. Even if you're lucky enough to get 50/50 custody, your poor daughter will be alone with your wife for half of her childhood, without you there to protect her and dilute to toxicity around her. You can't subject her to that.

Dad's rarely get full custody...


----------



## MEM1963

Kivlor,
Most people define a boundary as something they would end a marriage over. 

My focus is more on stuff I won't give up. These are things I would not forgo even if M2 said: yield on this point or I'm leaving you

So I'm not suggesting that Tom threaten divorce. I'm simply saying he ought to let her leave if his continued familial bonds are intolerable to her. 

My belief is that content intensity and delivery style are best when inversely correlated. So when the content is exceptionally hard, the delivery tone is ideally quite soft. 

Example: (soft tone, slow pace, soft volume)

Babe,
If this situation with my mother is intolerable for you, if it's a deal breaker, I accept that. And I'll miss you.

--------
The one thing M2 hears in situations like that - is certainty. 






Kivlor said:


> It is sad, but I can also see the difficulty in this. They've got a kid which adds to it. You and I may not have a hard time with this decision, but I imagine part of that is our experiences and attitudes. MEM, you've set hard boundaries for yourself for a while, and because of that you know how you'd handle this. I know what I will and won't tolerate too, and I convey it clearly. Sadly, I get the impression that OP hasn't done much boundary setting and maintenance over the years with his W. This is a mountain for him to climb. And he doesn't have any mountain climbing gear, and he likely doesn't have any experience with it either. It's going to be difficult for him.


----------



## memyselfandi

I really think that a wife should try to get along with her mother in law no matter what; being that you see her so little.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like your wife may have a sort of strong personality and likes to basically rule the roost. That shouldn't fly when your mom comes to visit.

Taking sides isn't the issue..it's about you kindly telling your wife to chill out since you're certainly not going to tell your Mom that.

Your wife really needs to make more of an effort when it comes to your Mom; in addition to badgering you about being a Mama's Boy. It may it alright in a kidding sort of way, but when it comes down to the point that she means what she says...that's rather unfair.

Good luck in your relationship and I hope everything pans out.


----------



## Kivlor

MEM1963 said:


> Kivlor,
> Most people define a boundary as something they would end a marriage over.
> 
> My focus is more on stuff I won't give up. These are things I would not forgo even if M2 said: yield on this point or I'm leaving you
> 
> So I'm not suggesting that Tom threaten divorce. I'm simply saying he ought to let her leave if his continued familial bonds are intolerable to her.
> 
> My belief is that content intensity and delivery style are best when inversely correlated. So when the content is exceptionally hard, the delivery tone is ideally quite soft.
> 
> Example: (soft tone, slow pace, soft volume)
> 
> Babe,
> If this situation with my mother is intolerable for you, if it's a deal breaker, I accept that. And I'll miss you.
> 
> --------
> The one thing M2 hears in situations like that - is certainty.


Having boundaries about setting lines that won't be crossed without consequence. Divorce is only one consequence, and threatening that may be something you never have to do, depending on the issue. A lot of boundaries can be dealt with without the threat of divorce--at least at early stages--I think. Constant repeat offense, without any improvement, well, that's different. Or in the case of some behavior, D should be the first warning. 

I agree with you on the mother issue though. Some boundaries come with the threat of divorce right out, or with short time-tables for improvement. Some come with no timetables. Of course, OP already took D off the table when he talked to his W. 

I don't think our delivery methods are that far off either. We both think that delivery has to be calm, and that screaming or yelling won't fix this. I also agree with your verbiage, I don't like the idea of saying "I'll divorce you if you don't <X>". Much better to say "if you can't do this, I'll miss you." I think our primary difference is that I think a little touch here and there, and strong, commanding body language goes a long way.


----------



## norajane

MEM1963 said:


> Kivlor,
> Most people define a boundary as something they would end a marriage over.
> 
> *My focus is more on stuff I won't give up. These are things I would not forgo even if M2 said: yield on this point or I'm leaving you
> 
> So I'm not suggesting that Tom threaten divorce. I'm simply saying he ought to let her leave if his continued familial bonds are intolerable to her. *
> 
> My belief is that content intensity and delivery style are best when inversely correlated. So when the content is exceptionally hard, the delivery tone is ideally quite soft.
> 
> Example: (soft tone, slow pace, soft volume)
> 
> Babe,
> If this situation with my mother is intolerable for you, if it's a deal breaker, I accept that. And I'll miss you.
> 
> --------
> The one thing M2 hears in situations like that - is certainty.


I really like this approach. It puts the ball in her court - accept this or leave. It's her call whether she chooses to get help for her issues or not, but, either way HIS behavior will be true to himself and what is important for their daughter. He has to know and be certain of what that is, though. I think he's getting there.


----------



## MEM1963

Norajane,

The one other benefit to this - if you have abandonment issues which I'm guessing his wife does - there is a vast vast difference between:
- I'm leaving you unless
And
- If you choose to leave me, I will accept that

The former sounds like : I don't love you 
The latter is more : If you don't love me enough to accept XYZ 






norajane said:


> I really like this approach. It puts the ball in her court - accept this or leave. It's her call whether she chooses to get help for her issues or not, but, either way HIS behavior will be true to himself and what is important for their daughter. He has to know and be certain of what that is, though. I think he's getting there.


----------



## TomNebraska

MEM1963 said:


> Tom,
> 
> How far do you live from your mom?
> 
> Faced with an ultimatum - will you divorce your wife or disown your mother...]


Well, Im in NE, mom is a few states east. far enough that a trip requires some planning and a flight. 

A while ago, I talked to my mom about some of the issues, and she said don't worry about my feelings, if you need to cut contact with me, i understand. im not trying to ruin your marriage, i think she's a good wife, etc. she was not happy about it, but she's not pushing me to leave my wife, undermining our relationship, etc

but your question really isnt fair because i know that it's not about my mom, its about my wife's own behavior. she's done crazy, controlling stuff when it comes to other people/relatives as well, my mom has just bore the brunt of it, because she's had the most contact . 

so cutting off contact wouldnt solve any of our problems really.


----------



## TomNebraska

so brief update. we went to counseling.

session seemed to be going off the rails for a while (wife started accusing me of lying whenever i discussed a past issue, making her own garbage up, "rewriting history"). counselor calmed us down, talked about better ways to discuss things that don't cause issues, dont put us on the defensive, etc. to his credit, all the things he told us to stop doing were all the things she has been doing that drive me nuts.

someone else noted above (im on phone or id quote directly) that if wife is operating out of fear, not malice, she might be able to change her behavior if she realizes I'm not pushing for a divorce here. i think, based on how the session ended and our talk after, this is correct.

She calmed down and admitted some things she said were wrong, and unfair to me. so I'm willing to give this a shot. 

i talked to a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist. he also thought her behavior sounded like BPD, but he said to try ignoring the diagnosis/thoughts of her having mental issues while trying to work things out. instead focus on specific behavior. 

i am going to try that and see how it goes.

one unrelated thing: thing my wife mentioned after our session: she was posting on some message board for people with in-law issues, and she said dozens of posters told her to get divorced, leave me, etc. they even got so angry with her when she didnt agree they banned her from the site (!) 

there DOES seem to be a bias toward divorce among advice on marriage/relationship message boards, i've noticed.


----------



## Kivlor

TomNebraska said:


> so brief update. we went to counseling.
> 
> session seemed to be going off the rails for a while (wife started accusing me of lying whenever i discussed a past issue, making her own garbage up, "rewriting history"). counselor calmed us down, talked about better ways to discuss things that don't cause issues, dont put us on the defensive, etc. to his credit, all the things he told us to stop doing were all the things she has been doing that drive me nuts.
> 
> someone else noted above (im on phone or id quote directly) that if wife is operating out of fear, not malice, she might be able to change her behavior if she realizes I'm not pushing for a divorce here. i think, based on how the session ended and our talk after, this is correct.
> 
> She calmed down and admitted some things she said were wrong, and unfair to me. so I'm willing to give this a shot.
> 
> i talked to a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist. he also thought her behavior sounded like BPD, but he said to try ignoring the diagnosis/thoughts of her having mental issues while trying to work things out. instead focus on specific behavior.
> 
> i am going to try that and see how it goes.
> 
> one unrelated thing: thing my wife mentioned after our session: she was posting on some message board for people with in-law issues, and she said dozens of posters told her to get divorced, leave me, etc. they even got so angry with her when she didnt agree they banned her from the site (!)
> 
> there DOES seem to be a bias toward divorce among advice on marriage/relationship message boards, i've noticed.


There is a bias toward divorce in a lot of relationship forums. Part of this I think is the ubiquitous aspect of divorce in the US today. Also, most of us are well-meaning, there's just a lot of personal experience behind the advice. A certain amount of projection is bound to happen. You will also see a lot of diagnosing people as NPD or BPD. Sometimes this is right, but others, not so much. 

I mentioned earlier that I thought it was premature to say your M can or can't be saved. I still think that's correct advice at this stage. There's no way to tell if your W has a real psychological problem, or if she's just symptomatic of the spouse who has not been and doesn't believe they can be told "No. Stop." until you've worked on a lot of the underlying issues. I certainly wouldn't just label her crazy, and move on, without making sure that's the case.

I do suggest you find your N.U.T.s (Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms), and hold onto them. Whether this issue about your mom is one or not, only you can decide. And like MEM said, there's a massive difference between allowing your W to leave if she doesn't like it, and threatening to divorce her if she doesn't accept them.

I'm glad you think there's a way forward. Better to save your marriage than split your family when that is possible.


----------



## MattMatt

TomNebraska said:


> Well, Im in NE, mom is a few states east. far enough that a trip requires some planning and a flight.
> 
> *A while ago, I talked to my mom about some of the issues, and she said don't worry about my feelings, if you need to cut contact with me, i understand. im not trying to ruin your marriage,* i think she's a good wife, etc. she was not happy about it, but she's not pushing me to leave my wife, undermining our relationship, etc
> 
> but your question really isnt fair because i know that it's not about my mom, its about my wife's own behavior. she's done crazy, controlling stuff when it comes to other people/relatives as well, my mom has just bore the brunt of it, because she's had the most contact .
> 
> so cutting off contact wouldnt solve any of our problems really.


Well, you see, your mother cares more about your marriage than your wife does.

Your mother is not trying to ruin your marriage. That, sad to say, appears to be your wife's self-selected task.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TomNebraska said:


> one unrelated thing: thing my wife mentioned after our session: she was posting on some message board for people with in-law issues, and she said dozens of posters told her to get divorced, leave me, etc. they even got so angry with her when she didnt agree they banned her from the site (!)
> 
> there DOES seem to be a bias toward divorce among advice on marriage/relationship message boards, i've noticed.


You really need to get on there and find what she posted. I guarantee you that she presented this on the forum from a VERY different angle than what you have here. She will be presenting it in such a way that YOU look like the whipped mama's boy, and her the poor, abused DIL of the hateful, nasty MIL. She will be telling tales of how you ALWAYS side with your incestuous mother over her and how she has done everything possible to make you happy but yet you choose mom time and time again.

You may feel there is a bias toward divorce on these forums, but you need to keep in mind that many of us have been in the same or similar situations to those who post their issues so have experience in how things play out. Also we can look at other posters' situations from the outside as neutral parties, so we often times have a much clearer view of the reality of what is actually going down. 

Also, sometimes you have to be willing to LOSE it to SAVE it. This is the honest truth. People I don't think realize that you can stop a divorce at any point. Just because you file doesn't mean that it HAS to go through. For some spouses, this is the only way that any change can be instigated. 

However that said, sad to say that for your particular situation, Im afraid that if you want to remain married, you need to ready to suck up this abuse from your wife for the next 30 years of your life. *There is something seriously, deeply wrong with your wife. *The odds of her making a real change is almost nil. Unless she comes to the realization of her deep seated issues and actively works on herself, it wont happen. You MIGHT get some relief once your mother passes away, but I somehow doubt it. Everything you do will be her judging that its because you "miss your mommy" just like she does now with calling you a "mama's boy".


----------



## MattMatt

3Xnocharm said:


> You really need to get on there and find what she posted. I guarantee you that she presented this on the forum from a VERY different angle than what you have here. She will be presenting it in such a way that YOU look like the whipped mama's boy, and her the poor, abused DIL of the hateful, nasty MIL. She will be telling tales of how you ALWAYS side with your incestuous mother over her and how she has done everything possible to make you happy but yet you choose mom time and time again.
> 
> You may feel there is a bias toward divorce on these forums, but you need to keep in mind that many of us have been in the same or similar situations to those who post their issues so have experience in how things play out. Also we can look at other posters' situations from the outside as neutral parties, so we often times have a much clearer view of the reality of what is actually going down.
> 
> Also, sometimes you have to be willing to LOSE it to SAVE it. This is the honest truth. People I don't think realize that you can stop a divorce at any point. Just because you file doesn't mean that it HAS to go through. For some spouses, this is the only way that any change can be instigated.
> 
> However that said, sad to say that for your particular situation, Im afraid that if you want to remain married, you need to ready to suck up this abuse from your wife for the next 30 years of your life. *There is something seriously, deeply wrong with your wife. *The odds of her making a real change is almost nil. Unless she comes to the realization of her deep seated issues and actively works on herself, it wont happen. You MIGHT get some relief once your mother passes away, but I somehow doubt it. Everything you do will be her judging that its because you "miss your mommy" just like she does now with calling you a "mama's boy".


----------



## JohnA

Reality is tricky thing, advise at best is only as good as the info provided. As one sided a view his wife posted, Tom's might be as well.


----------



## MattMatt

JohnA said:


> Reality is tricky thing, advise at best is only as good as the info provided. As one sided a view his wife posted, Tom's might be as well.


Meaning we do not give any advice to anyone on TAM ever again, in case we have only one side of the story?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

JohnA said:


> Reality is tricky thing, advise at best is only as good as the info provided. As one sided a view his wife posted, Tom's might be as well.


Of course. But this is why I think he needs to find what she posted. (IF she really did, she could be full of crap...) I think it could be really eye opening for him. Also if he was able to share it here, it could help us help him even more.


----------



## TomNebraska

3Xnocharm said:


> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reality is tricky thing, advise at best is only as good as the info provided. As one sided a view his wife posted, Tom's might be as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. But this is why I think he needs to find what she posted. (IF she really did, she could be full of crap...) I think it could be really eye opening for him. Also if he was able to share it here, it could help us help him even more.
Click to expand...

I don't really care what she posted. I don't doubt it included all the stuff my mom did, along with her embellishments of it, while omitting any positive interactions she's had with my mom & family, and omitting her own extreme behavior (the fights, the ambushes, the insecurity, the incest comments, etc).

she told me about the result: she was banned from the site from arguing with all the regular posters that divorce wasn't her only option, and she isn't looking to leave me, so who cares what she wrote?

I think it shows her own confusion on the topic; she's looking for allies/sympathy here, & wants to fight with her husband and be "right," but she's not actually willing to go so far as to end our marriage over this. she dials it back and apologizes in the end.

her behavior is troubling for sure, but I am not throwing in the towel over it. if we can work it out, thats undoubtedly better for all concerned. 

if it wasn't for these fights, we'd all more or less be happy.


----------



## Blondilocks

I think you need to read her posts because there may be an inkling as to what her real problem is. Also, what her imagined problems are. You will also see just how far she is willing to go to make herself look like a victim and you & your mom like abusers. You might learn a thing or two about your wife.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TomNebraska said:


> I think it shows her own confusion on the topic; she's looking for allies/sympathy here, & wants to fight with her husband and be "right," but she's not actually willing to go so far as to end our marriage over this. she dials it back and apologizes in the end.
> 
> her behavior is troubling for sure, but I am not throwing in the towel over it. if we can work it out, thats undoubtedly better for all concerned.
> 
> *if it wasn't for these fights, we'd all more or less be happy*.


Right, and women who's husbands physically abuse them say the same thing....."other than the times he breaks my ribs, he's really a good guy and we are happy"...may sound extreme, but in reality, it comes across the same. 

Why is this acceptable to you? I mean, since you came here looking for advise, there is something about it that is NOT acceptable, yet at every turn, you make a statement that excuses it away and that its ok. It would be great if you guys can work things out, but you really need to not bury your head in the sand over the severity of your situation.


----------



## Kivlor

TomNebraska said:


> I think it shows her own confusion on the topic; she's looking for allies/sympathy here, & wants to fight with her husband and be "right," but she's not actually willing to go so far as to end our marriage over this. she dials it back and apologizes in the end.


This really does support the idea MEM and others have posted about your W playing brinksmanship over your marriage. Not confirmation, but certainly supporting evidence. That's a positive sign, on the sliding scale of how bad your situation could be. 

As others posted, if she is playing brinksmanship, more or less calling the bluff would likely bring an end to it. I give a +1 to MEM's previous recommendations on handling this.

When is your next counseling session?


----------



## TomNebraska

as far as whether my account is one-sided against my wife... i am sure i have omitted some things, and am not giving her feelings their full due. but my descriptions of events are spot on. she has thrown the "incest" comments out on several occasions, and her behavior toward my mom & family doesn't match up with her complaints about them. the ambush events, accusations of infidelity, etc have all continued. 

and she takes all this out on me, whether i was present or not, and never addresses it with the actual "perpetrator." if it really was about their behavior, seems it would be the other way around. 

so i felt like this behavior was not normal, and i think people here have convinced me its not. i had talked to a few female friends who also had issues with their M-I-Ls and was thinking maybe wives just are super sensitive to these things. but my wife seems in a category of her own here. 

now going forward, im committed to working these things out. this doesnt mean Im willing to tolerate alienation from my family or years of abuse. im hoping those issues go away. if they don't, at least from this board i have some advice to fall back on, and some books to read on the topic (i ordered "walking on eggshells")

so thanks, everyone!


----------



## TomNebraska

Kivlor said:


> This really does support the idea MEM and others have posted about your W playing brinksmanship over your marriage. Not confirmation, but certainly supporting evidence. That's a positive sign, on the sliding scale of how bad your situation could be.
> 
> As others posted, if she is playing brinksmanship, more or less calling the bluff would likely bring an end to it. I give a +1 to MEM's previous recommendations on handling this.
> 
> When is your next counseling session?


in a week and a half.

we'll see how it goes until then. counselor gave us a couple handouts of how to discuss things and resolve conflicts, which have passed one test so far.

FWIW, she seemed to be having an even harder time dealing with the fighting last week than i have.

If I was in her shoes (self-esteem issues, troubled upbringing, crazy parents, career postponed for raising kid, and on top of that, as bad as her family has been toward her, theyre all far away and cant be there for her) I can see how she'd fear being abandoned by me, left to her own devices. this is why im not willing to throw in the towel yet, willing to give her a chance.


----------



## MEM1963

Tom,

You misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking whether you would divorce your wife over this. But rather what you would do if your wife threatened to divorce you, unless you disown your mother. 

By the way - your mom has a giant heart. 

You know the story of Soloman - yes? Two women come before him each claiming she is the mother of a baby. 

They both tell a persuasive story. Solomon shrugs and says: Only fair solution is to cut the baby in half. One of the claimants remains silent and the other says: Let her take the baby, please don't hurt it.

And I think it's important to set your expectations properly. 

This is NOT a solvable problem. It is likely a manageable problem. 

But it can only be managed via humor, compassion and acceptance. 

Your wife is already frightened. She has a phobia. 




TomNebraska said:


> as far as whether my account is one-sided against my wife... i am sure i have omitted some things, and am not giving her feelings their full due. but my descriptions of events are spot on. she has thrown the "incest" comments out on several occasions, and her behavior toward my mom & family doesn't match up with her complaints about them. the ambush events, accusations of infidelity, etc have all continued.
> 
> and she takes all this out on me, whether i was present or not, and never addresses it with the actual "perpetrator." if it really was about their behavior, seems it would be the other way around.
> 
> so i felt like this behavior was not normal, and i think people here have convinced me its not. i had talked to a few female friends who also had issues with their M-I-Ls and was thinking maybe wives just are super sensitive to these things. but my wife seems in a category of her own here.
> 
> now going forward, im committed to working these things out. this doesnt mean Im willing to tolerate alienation from my family or years of abuse. im hoping those issues go away. if they don't, at least from i have some advice to fall back on, and some booms to read on the topic (i ordered "walking on eggshells")
> 
> so thanks, everyone!


----------



## Kivlor

TomNebraska said:


> in a week and a half.
> 
> we'll see how it goes until then. counselor gave us a couple handouts of how to discuss things and resolve conflicts, which have passed one test so far.
> 
> FWIW, she seemed to be having an even harder time dealing with the fighting last week than i have.
> 
> If I was in her shoes (self-esteem issues, troubled upbringing, crazy parents, career postponed for raising kid, and on top of that, as bad as her family has been toward her, theyre all far away and cant be there for her) I can see how she'd fear being abandoned by me, left to her own devices. this is why im not willing to throw in the towel yet, willing to give her a chance.


Good. It's great to hear that she's having some trouble with the fighting. That's a good sign. It's also good that you're not just tossing in the towel right now. You should at least find out the situation you're in, before you decide to give up. 

I'll relate a story from last week, an analogy, more for the benefit of those who advocate D right out of the gate than your own since you seem to have the right idea here: 

I have a truck, and it needed some work. On top of the work, there was the little sound of a tappet knocking. Had it in to the dealer last week to fix it up and while it was in the shop, the dealer's mechanic called and said, "Hey Kivlor, we were working on your truck, and we can hear a noise deep in the engine. You need to get a new engine. Gonna be ~$9,000. Also, your Cats are bad. Need 2 of them, $550. You may just want to get a new truck."

When I asked what the noise was, they said "I don't know. But it's making a noise, so you should get a new engine. Or just buy a new truck from us." Now I didn't trust their diagnosis at all so I asked if they'd tested the Cats or if they'd just read the code from my bad spark plug that threw off the O2 sensor last month. They told me they just read the codes, and that they replace everything that throws a code. Not very professional.

Now, how can you determine it needs a new engine if it's just making an unidentified noise? How do you know what should be done if you won't even inspect it? How do you know the Cats are bad if you've not tested them?

I took my truck to another mechanic--who is a little slow on getting things done or I'd have taken it there in the first place. I told him the story and said "Hey, I know it's got a lifter that's making a little noise, but Ford said it's making a deep sound, and that I need a new engine." The Mechanic looked at the truck, finished the work I originally wanted done, and inspected the questionable claims from the dealer. The only noise is the sticky lifter. The Cats test clean.

Now, with that information, I can decide on what kind of repairs are appropriate for my truck. And I don't need to scrap it for a new one.

The moral fellow TAM members is don't be the car dealer, who at the first sign of a computer detecting a problem, just says "Scrap the car. Or rebuild it."


----------



## Anon1111

Here's what I would do in OP's situation:

go to your wife and say:

"I know you have some frustrations with my mom. I want you to feel as though you've been heard, so I will sit here calmly while you lay it out for me."

then sit an listen while she spills it. do not argue, just let her talk. 

when she is done, say:

"I appreciate that we can get this all out in the open. Your complaints are noted. I hope you can understand that, even though you have problems with her, she is my mother and she will be a part of my life going forward.

"She is very important to me, so when you say hurtful things about her, it hurts me personally. For that reason, I consider this a closed issue at this point. I won't be participating in further conversations where you speak negatively of her. 

"I hope that you can see past your issues with her and participate in family events when she is present. If you can't do that, I understand, but I would ask that you remove yourself from those situations. If you're not able to do that, then I will need to plan these events without you."

Then FOLLOW THROUGH with the above.

Do not be emotional about it. Just do what you say you will.

Let her be emotional. Just walk away and let her throw a fit by herself.


----------



## Anon1111

always remember-- it takes two to argue

hysteria is her element, not yours. when she drags you down into hysteria you are playing by her rules.

you have a great power in your ability to walk away and refuse to participate in crazy talk

if she needs to behave to get your attention, she will start behaving

right now she gets your attention by acting nuts. that is the exact wrong message


----------



## MEM1963

Tom,
Your wife is agitated by any close relationships you have yes? 

It isn't just your mom. In a perfect world - she would have you all to herself yes?

I'm not being critical. Just descriptive. 

She is afraid. Full stop. Your mission is to help her deal with that fear. If you succeed, her 'symptoms' will be greatly reduced. 

And it's likely she's afraid your mom is trying to do the exact same thing to her, she is trying to do to your mom. Which is to get you to cut her out of your life. 

Kind of ironic eh? Your mom is doing the exact opposite. 





Anon1111 said:


> Here's what I would do in OP's situation:
> 
> go to your wife and say:
> 
> "I know you have some frustrations with my mom. I want you to feel as though you've been heard, so I will sit here calmly while you lay it out for me."
> 
> then sit an listen while she spills it. do not argue, just let her talk.
> 
> when she is done, say:
> 
> "I appreciate that we can get this all out in the open. Your complaints are noted. I hope you can understand that, even though you have problems with her, she is my mother and she will be a part of my life going forward.
> 
> "She is very important to me, so when you say hurtful things about her, it hurts me personally. For that reason, I consider this a closed issue at this point. I won't be participating in further conversations where you speak negatively of her.
> 
> "I hope that you can see past your issues with her and participate in family events when she is present. If you can't do that, I understand, but I would ask that you remove yourself from those situations. If you're not able to do that, then I will need to plan these events without you."
> 
> Then FOLLOW THROUGH with the above.
> 
> Do not be emotional about it. Just do what you say you will.
> 
> Let her be emotional. Just walk away and let her throw a fit by herself.


----------



## MEM1963

Anon,
I used to think that walking away was the ultimate power move when M2 was trying her hardest to synchronize be to her (hyper anxious) emotional state. 

Thing is - that just isn't so. 

Synchronizing an anxious partner to your own calm state - is the true power move. 

It's a learned skill. Anxiety is contagious. But calm also can be. 

Tom needs to get into her head. Find out WHY she feels so threatened by his close connections. 




Anon1111 said:


> always remember-- it takes two to argue
> 
> hysteria is her element, not yours. when she drags you down into hysteria you are playing by her rules.
> 
> you have a great power in your ability to walk away and refuse to participate in crazy talk
> 
> if she needs to behave to get your attention, she will start behaving
> 
> right now she gets your attention by acting nuts. that is the exact wrong message


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Or he could just go find a normal, non-disordered woman to share his life with.

I feel for you Tom. I was with my BPD ex for 15 years. Its no way to live.


----------



## SunCMars

OK.....

Now what are your wife's good points?

I hope they are Saint-Worthy!


----------



## MattMatt

MEM1963 said:


> Tom,
> Your wife is agitated by any close relationships you have yes?
> 
> It isn't just your mom. In a perfect world - she would have you all to herself yes?
> 
> I'm not being critical. Just descriptive.
> 
> She is afraid. Full stop. Your mission is to help her deal with that fear. If you succeed, her 'symptoms' will be greatly reduced.
> 
> And it's likely she's afraid your mom is trying to do the exact same thing to her, she is trying to do to your mom. Which is to get you to cut her out of your life.
> 
> Kind of ironic eh? Your mom is doing the exact opposite.


Tom, I hate, *really* hate, to raise this point, but if she will accuse you of incest with your mother what is to stop her making the same lying claims about you and your own daughter, somewhere down the line? 

Your wife's phobias, such as they are, only only a small part of the mess of burning wires that are shorting out in her brain.

She is mentally deranged. Because no sane person could make such vile accusations (repeatedly) about you and your mother.


----------



## Blondilocks

Then again, maybe she's just a b!tch.


----------



## turnera

What are her good points? Why is she worth staying with? Be VERY honest with yourself and us.


----------



## MEM1963

They ought addresses her fixation with incest - in therapy.





MattMatt said:


> Tom, I hate, *really* hate, to raise this point, but if she will accuse you of incest with your mother what is to stop her making the same lying claims about you and your own daughter, somewhere down the line?
> 
> Your wife's phobias, such as they are, only only a small part of the mess of burning wires that are shorting out in her brain.
> 
> She is mentally deranged. Because no sane person could make such vile accusations (repeatedly) about you and your mother.


----------



## Uptown

TomNebraska said:


> If wife is operating out of fear, not malice, she might be able to change her behavior if she realizes I'm not pushing for a divorce here.


Yes, she might improve her behavior if her only fear is abandonment and you draw close to her to assure her of your love and intent to work on the marriage. Yet, if she is a BPDer as you and your psychiatrist friend suspect, she does not have just one great fear. She also has a second: that of engulfment, i.e., a suffocating feeling she will get when you draw close in intimacy to convince her of your love and devotion.



> I can see how she'd fear being abandoned by me, left to her own devices. this is why im not willing to throw in the towel yet.


As I noted above, you cannot save a BPDer marriage by trying to reduce her abandonment fear. With BPDers, you are always in a lose-lose situation no matter what you choose to do. The problem is that a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you cannot back away from one fear (to avoid triggering it) without starting to trigger the fear at the other end of that spectrum.

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist. 



> I talked to a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist. he also thought her behavior sounded like BPD, but he said to try ignoring the diagnosis/thoughts of her having mental issues while trying to work things out.* instead focus on specific behavior.* i am going to try that and see how it goes.


That's exactly what you have been trying for the past four years: _ "focusing on specific behavior."_ How has that worked out for you? When your W started fights (over absolutely nothing) to push you away, you've been addressing that behavior by backing away to give her breathing room and space. Then, when your distance started triggering her abandonment fear, you focused on reducing that fearful behavior by drawing close to assure her of your love and devotion -- thereby starting the cycle all over again.

In the past four years, you doubtless have already tried addressing her "specific behavior" problem of the day by not doing a thing -- i.e., by sitting absolutely still in the room and not doing or saying anything. What did you find? You found that your W still got angry with you if she is a BPDer. The reason is that she carries so much anger and unhappiness inside that, even when you aren't moving a muscle, her subconscious will project those hurtful feelings onto you. The result is that, at a conscious level, she will be absolutely convinced the bad thoughts or hurtful feelings originated with YOU.



> My mistake was thinking I could help her work through these issues and they'd resolved themselves over time as she became more secure/confident & could trust me.


Likewise, I made the same mistake. The only real difference I see is that you've accomplished in 4 years what took me 15 years to understand.



> Is there any way to encourage someone with BPD to get the help they need?


If she really is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits), I suggest you gently urge her to seek therapy and -- in the unlikely event she goes -- let her psychologist decide what to tell her. It is highly unlikely, however, you will be successful if she does exhibit strong and persistent traits. Hence, your likely next step would be to say that, if she doesn't love you enough to seek therapy, you will be sad she has chosen to leave you (i.e., the language *@MEM1963* is recommending, I believe). 

Yet, even assuming she does remain in years of individual therapy with a good psych -- as my exW did for 15 years with 6 psychologists -- the likely outcome is that she will only use the time to play mental games with them. Unless a BPDer is strongly self-motivated to work hard on her issues, no real improvement will occur. Of course, if she actually is that self-motivated and self-aware, you won't have to push her into seeing a therapist. She will want to do it when you suggest it.



> The therapist we're going to see together is the same therapist she saw on her own. Any concerns?


Yes, BIG concerns. Here in the USA it is an ethical violation for a therapist to treat one spouse in individual therapy while seeing both of them in MC sessions. The reason this is unethical is because such a situation makes it impossible for the therapist to remain neutral and balanced in evaluating both partners in MC. This is why all therapists will refuse to see only one of you in IC if they are already treating you as a couple in MC. They will agree, however, to see both of you separately in IC while seeing both of you in MC.

I strongly recommend that the MC not be used for IC -- by either of you. It is very important that the Non ("nonBPDer") see his/her own psychologist. Remember, your W's therapist is NOT your friend. This is especially true when BPD is seriously involved. Relying on your W's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. 

To protect their high functioning BPDer clients, therapists generally withhold the name of this disorder from those clients (and from their spouses as well). If you're interested, I explain the reasons for this withholding of information at *Loath to Diagnose*. This is why I earlier recommended (post #33) that you see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your daughter are dealing with.



> So do people with BPD seek out their own?


Not that I know of. Keep in mind that the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning folks who rarely (if ever) exhibit their dark side around casual friends, business associates, or strangers. This means that, in the highly unlikely event a BPDer is sufficiently self aware of having this disorder, that person still would have little opportunity to see strong BPD traits in other high functioning people.

Moreover, even if a HF BPDer did start dating another HF BPDer, they likely would quickly terminate the R/S. Because BPDers have a weak, fragile sense of identity, they desperately need to pair up with someone having a strong, stable self identity. In that way, the stable partner is able to supply the missing "self identity" that the BPDer sorely needs. 

This is not to say, however, that the BPDer will be happy when you give her exactly what she wants: the missing identity and sense of stability and direction. After the infatuation period fades, she will start resenting you for "controlling" her -- which is how your strong personality will be perceived by her at a subconscious level.



> *Parental Alienation Syndrome* -- How can I protect my kid from this?


It will be difficult. To reduce the likelihood of her having you arrested and portraying you as an unfit father, I join @*Blondilocks* in suggesting that you carry a VAR to record outbursts. Also collect any other evidence that will help prepare you. 

Also helpful in preparing for a PAS attack during divorce is the book, *Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder*. It is written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger. The latter is the author of the best-selling BPD book, _*Stop Walking on Eggshells*_. 

I also suggest you read these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist. Also good are two BPDfamily articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD (Article 9) and Leaving a Partner with BPD (Article 10). 

While you are at the BPDfamily forum, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at the *"Leaving"* board and the *"Parenting after the Split"* board. At the latter board, many divorced Nons discuss how they have tried to deal with parental alienation by the BPDer ex-spouse.

As to your W's other abusive behaviors, you can help reduce them a little -- if she exhibits only mild to moderate BPD traits -- by applying the validation techniques discussed in BPD books like _Stop Walking on Eggshells. _If her traits are strong, however, my experience is that all the validation in the world won't make a significant difference. So, if you decide that she exhibits strong symptoms and you nonetheless cannot divorce her at this time, I would suggest you take advantage of the online-resource-links that @*JohnA* provides in post #75 above. The most helpful would be the "gray rock" technique, an approach in which you stop responding to her attempts to bait you into another fight. Instead, you make yourself into a very, very, boring man -- becoming the unnoticeable "gray rock." This means you respond to baiting with vague comments like "That's something I'll have to think about." It is unlikely to help much but it may help a little.



> She then asked me to promise I wouldn't go "scorched earth" on her during divorce.... so is *she already resolving this is over? *


Does it matter what she is "already resolving" today? If she is a BPDer, she is so emotionally unstable that her perception of reality is dictated by the intense feelings she is experiencing THIS VERY MOMENT. As soon as her feelings toward you change -- and they almost certainly will change -- her perception of your intentions will change as well. This is how emotionally unstable people behave.


----------



## MEM1963

Matt,
Excellent point. 

Tom,
The best way to protect yourself from false future allegations is to create a small but perfectly clear 'electronic trail' documenting your wife's mental health issues. 

Start with the false obsession with incest.





MattMatt said:


> Tom, I hate, *really* hate, to raise this point, but if she will accuse you of incest with your mother what is to stop her making the same lying claims about you and your own daughter, somewhere down the line?
> 
> Your wife's phobias, such as they are, only only a small part of the mess of burning wires that are shorting out in her brain.
> 
> She is mentally deranged. Because no sane person could make such vile accusations (repeatedly) about you and your mother.


----------



## MEM1963

Uptown,

Thank you - I was hoping you would do this.

I do want to add some color on this whole BPD theme. 

Everyone has their 'base' state. This represents their normal behavior. 

If someone is what I refer to as BPD lite, they do have a stable but narrow temperature range at which they are comfortable. 

But as uptown says - a full blown bpd - is NEVER comfortable. They are either anxious because they feel ignored, or frightened and angrily pushing you away because they feel engulfed. 

So - my experience with M2 is this. The more I behave in a calm, stable way, the less I see in terms of her bpd traits. 

That said - in one very specific area - I have a huge advantage. I know M2 loves me. Know it in my head and my heart. So - when she wants less interaction - doesn't cause me any angst. When she wants more - great. 

This matters because - she can easily adjust the emotional temperature in the house - to the spot she likes. 

But she is nothing like Uptowns wife - who - I would have had no idea how to deal with. 






Uptown said:


> Yes, she might improve her behavior if her only fear is abandonment and you draw close to her to assure her of your love and intent to work on the marriage. Yet, if she is a BPDer as you and your psychiatrist friend suspect, she does not have just one great fear. She also has a second: that of engulfment, i.e., a suffocating feeling she will get when you draw close in intimacy to convince her of your love and devotion.
> 
> As I noted above, you cannot save a BPDer marriage by trying to reduce her abandonment fear. With BPDers, you are always in a lose-lose situation no matter what you choose to do. The problem is that a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you cannot back away from one fear (to avoid triggering it) without starting to trigger the fear at the other end of that spectrum.
> 
> Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.
> 
> That's exactly what you have been trying for the past four years: _ "focusing on specific behavior."_ How has that worked out for you? When your W started fights (over absolutely nothing) to push you away, you've been addressing that behavior by backing away to give her breathing room and space. Then, when your distance started triggering her abandonment fear, you focused on reducing that fearful behavior by drawing close to assure her of your love and devotion -- thereby starting the cycle all over again.
> 
> In the past four years, you doubtless have already tried addressing her "specific behavior" problem of the day by not doing a thing -- i.e., by sitting absolutely still in the room and not doing or saying anything. What did you find? You found that your W still got angry with you if she is a BPDer. The reason is that she carries so much anger and unhappiness inside that, even when you aren't moving a muscle, her subconscious will project those hurtful feelings onto you. The result is that, at a conscious level, she will be absolutely convinced the bad thoughts or hurtful feelings originated with YOU.
> 
> Likewise, I made the same mistake. The only real difference I see is that you've accomplished in 4 years what took me 15 years to understand.
> 
> If she really is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits), I suggest you gently urge her to seek therapy and -- in the unlikely event she goes -- let her psychologist decide what to tell her. It is highly unlikely, however, you will be successful if she does exhibit strong and persistent traits. Hence, your likely next step would be to say that, if she doesn't love you enough to seek therapy, you will be sad she has chosen to leave you (i.e., the language *@MEM1963* is recommending, I believe).
> 
> Yet, even assuming she does remain in years of individual therapy with a good psych -- as my exW did for 15 years with 6 psychologists -- the likely outcome is that she will only use the time to play mental games with them. Unless a BPDer is strongly self-motivated to work hard on her issues, no real improvement will occur. Of course, if she actually is that self-motivated and self-aware, you won't have to push her into seeing a therapist. She will want to do it when you suggest it.
> 
> Yes, BIG concerns. Here in the USA it is an ethical violation for a therapist to treat one spouse in individual therapy while seeing both of them in MC sessions. The reason this is unethical is because such a situation makes it impossible for the therapist to remain neutral and balanced in evaluating both partners in MC. This is why all therapists will refuse to see only one of you in IC if they are already treating you as a couple in MC. They will agree, however, to see both of you separately in IC while seeing both of you in MC.
> 
> I strongly recommend that the MC not be used for IC -- by either of you. It is very important that the Non ("nonBPDer") see his/her own psychologist. Remember, your W's therapist is NOT your friend. This is especially true when BPD is seriously involved. Relying on your W's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce.
> 
> To protect their high functioning BPDer clients, therapists generally withhold the name of this disorder from those clients (and from their spouses as well). If you're interested, I explain the reasons for this withholding of information at *Loath to Diagnose*. This is why I earlier recommended (post #33) that you see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your daughter are dealing with.
> 
> Not that I know of. Keep in mind that the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning folks who rarely (if ever) exhibit their dark side around casual friends, business associates, or strangers. This means that, in the highly unlikely event a BPDer is sufficiently self aware of having this disorder, that person still would have little opportunity to see strong BPD traits in other high functioning people.
> 
> Moreover, even if a HF BPDer did start dating another HF BPDer, they likely would quickly terminate the R/S. Because BPDers have a weak, fragile sense of identity, they desperately need to pair up with someone having a strong, stable self identity. In that way, the stable partner is able to supply the missing "self identity" that the BPDer sorely needs.
> 
> This is not to say, however, that the BPDer will be happy when you give her exactly what she wants: the missing identity and sense of stability and direction. After the infatuation period fades, she will start resenting you for "controlling" her -- which is how your strong personality will be perceived by her at a subconscious level.
> 
> It will be difficult. To reduce the likelihood of her having you arrested and portraying you as an unfit father, I join @*Blondilocks* in suggesting that you carry a VAR to record outbursts. Also collect any other evidence that will help prepare you.
> 
> Also helpful in preparing for a PAS attack during divorce is the book, *Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder*. It is written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger. The latter is the author of the best-selling BPD book, _*Stop Walking on Eggshells*_.
> 
> I also suggest you read these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist. Also good are two BPDfamily articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD (Article 9) and Leaving a Partner with BPD (Article 10).
> 
> While you are at the BPDfamily forum, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at the *"Leaving"* board and the *"Parenting after the Split"* board. At the latter board, many divorced Nons discuss how they have tried to deal with parental alienation by the BPDer ex-spouse.
> 
> As to your W's other abusive behaviors, you can help reduce them a little -- if she exhibits only mild to moderate BPD traits -- by applying the validation techniques discussed in BPD books like _Stop Walking on Eggshells. _If her traits are strong, however, my experience is that all the validation in the world won't make a significant difference. So, if you decide that she exhibits strong symptoms and you nonetheless cannot divorce her at this time, I would suggest you take advantage of the online-resource-links that @*JohnA* provides in post #75 above. The most helpful would be the "gray rock" technique, an approach in which you stop responding to her attempts to bait you into another fight. Instead, you make yourself into a very, very, boring man -- becoming the unnoticeable "gray rock." This means you respond to baiting with vague comments like "That's something I'll have to think about." It is unlikely to help much but it may help a little.
> 
> Does it matter what she is "already resolving" today? If she is a BPDer, she is so emotionally unstable that her perception of reality is dictated by the intense feelings she is experiencing THIS VERY MOMENT. As soon as her feelings toward you change -- and they almost certainly will change -- her perception of your intentions will change as well. This is how emotionally unstable people behave.


----------



## Uptown

MEM1963 said:


> *I do want to add some color *on this whole BPD theme.


Color? Is that what "wisdom" is called these days? MEM, for a guy who has never lived with a BPDer, you are remarkably insightful about it. I especially like your statement that _"a full blown bpd - is NEVER comfortable. They are either anxious because they feel ignored, or frightened and angrily pushing you away because they feel engulfed." _Like I said, the Goldilocks position doesn't exist with BPDers. Or, if it does, it is a constantly shifting knife edge. Either way, the result is that there is no place an abused spouse can safely stand to avoid triggering the BPDer's two fears.



> I have a huge advantage. I know M2 loves me. Know it in my head and my heart.


Likewise, the abused spouses of BPDers know in their heads and hearts that their unstable spouses truly love them. Unlike narcissists and sociopaths, BPDers are capable of intensely loving you (albeit in an immature way). Yet, whereas this awareness of being loved is a great _advantage_ when your spouse is stable -- as in your case, MEM -- it is a great _disadvantage _when you are married to an unstable spouse. It prevents a large share of abused spouses from walking out of a marriage that is toxic to both parties.

The reason is that, knowing to an absolute certainty that he/she is truly loved, the abused spouse will not file for divorce and leave -- not if he/she is an excessive caregiver like me. People like @*JohnA* and me will spend many years mistakenly believing that, if we can only figure out what WE are doing wrong, we can restore our spouses back to that wonderful person we saw during the courtship period. 

This is why BPDers have a "crazymaking" effect far greater than that of narcissists and sociopaths. Indeed, of the 157 disorders listed in the DSM-5, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. It is extremely disorienting and confusing to be married to a person who you absolutely know must love you -- and who you know must truly believe most of the outrageous allegations coming out of his/her mouth.


----------



## norajane

3Xnocharm said:


> Of course. But this is why I think he needs to find what she posted. (IF she really did, she could be full of crap...) I think it could be really eye opening for him. Also if he was able to share it here, it could help us help him even more.


Actually, it might help him more to print out her posts and take them to the therapist when they have their counseling session. If her posts are anything like what OP has said she has been saying about MIL, that should be sufficient proof that she is batsh*t crazy. Taking her words and showing them to the counselor won't allow OP's wife to throw all the blame on OP, and will show the counselor what OP is dealing with.


----------



## turnera

norajane said:


> Actually, it might help him more to print out her posts and take them to the therapist when they have their counseling session. If her posts are anything like what OP has said she has been saying about MIL, that should be sufficient proof that she is batsh*t crazy. Taking her words and showing them to the counselor won't allow OP's wife to throw all the blame on OP, and will show the counselor what OP is dealing with.


That's an excellent idea. The only issue is that she's going to feel betrayed, which may create a whole other can of worms.


----------



## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> Then again, maybe she's just a b!tch.


Ouch!


----------



## Anon1111

MEM1963 said:


> Anon,
> I used to think that walking away was the ultimate power move when M2 was trying her hardest to synchronize be to her (hyper anxious) emotional state.
> 
> Thing is - that just isn't so.
> 
> Synchronizing an anxious partner to your own calm state - is the true power move.
> 
> It's a learned skill. Anxiety is contagious. But calm also can be.
> 
> Tom needs to get into her head. Find out WHY she feels so threatened by his close connections.


I'm with you on this up to a point.

If OP was saying his daughter was acting this way, I'd say commit to what you've described above.

with another adult there is a lower limit.

give it a shot, but it is really not up to him to be his wife's emotional regulation system.

if the situation was reversed and he was doing this to her, I seriously doubt anyone would advise her to co-regulate with him.


----------



## MEM1963

All marital dominance springs from the same deep - quiet - well.

All of it comes from the ability to dominate the emotional tone in the room. Full stop. 

Obviously the worst case scenario is to be with someone who is both emotionally dominant and deeply unhappy. 

Nobody ever told me any of this stuff. Just trying to help Tom benefit from a long painful 'trial and error, mostly error' process I went through. 





Anon1111 said:


> I'm with you on this up to a point.
> 
> If OP was saying his daughter was acting this way, I'd say commit to what you've described above.
> 
> with another adult there is a lower limit.
> 
> give it a shot, but it is really not up to him to be his wife's emotional regulation system.
> 
> if the situation was reversed and he was doing this to her, I seriously doubt anyone would advise her to co-regulate with him.


----------



## Steve1000

TomNebraska said:


> I think she's mostly a good wife as well... it's just this issue.
> 
> I was pretty offended by the incest thing (and that wasn't the only time she accused me of that), but for the sake of marital bliss, I didn't dwell on it. .


I understand the desire to avoid conflict with this woman, but accusing your mom of incest is a very big deal. You need to stand up to her and calmly show her that you will no longer tolerate such ugly behavior. 

I'm having difficulties imagining how she can be a mostly good wife overall.


----------



## Anon1111

MEM1963 said:


> All marital dominance springs from the same deep - quiet - well.
> 
> All of it comes from the ability to dominate the emotional tone in the room. Full stop.
> 
> Obviously the worst case scenario is to be with someone who is both emotionally dominant and deeply unhappy.
> 
> Nobody ever told me any of this stuff. Just trying to help Tom benefit from a long painful 'trial and error, mostly error' process I went through.


OK, but my point is that you shouldn't have to be the full time emotional regulator of a grown woman.

again, if Tom was going off on tirades and accusing his wife of committing incest with her father, I bet that the reaction would be quite different.


----------



## MEM1963

1000 percent agree

Tom ought to keep a daily journal - 5-10 minutes a day - summarizing their interactions. 

But he also need some to read the books uptown recommends 




Anon1111 said:


> OK, but my point is that you shouldn't have to be the full time emotional regulator of a grown woman.
> 
> again, if Tom was going off on tirades and accusing his wife of committing incest with her father, I bet that the reaction would be quite different.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Or, he could decide to share his life with a normal, non-disordered woman.

Of course, some of you need a project. I get it.


----------



## MEM2020

Below is an example of why I consider M2 a perfect dessert island companion. In a one on one situation - it's easy to stay in the Goldilocks zone. 

We just finished dinner, I'm putting the last plate in the dishwasher M2 says: Would it be ok if we have some quiet time?

This is a polite and sincere request. Fine by me. Introverts need a certain amount of alone time. 

So I smile and say sure and am about to head into another room of the house when M2 walks over and starts telling me about her day. 

Proceeds to tell me a hilarious story about a wacko person she dealt with. 

A very light push pull scenario. 

Control is just as important as distance. 





Anon1111 said:


> OK, but my point is that you shouldn't have to be the full time emotional regulator of a grown woman.
> 
> again, if Tom was going off on tirades and accusing his wife of committing incest with her father, I bet that the reaction would be quite different.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MEM11363 said:


> Below is an example of why I consider M2 a perfect dessert island companion. In a one on one situation - it's easy to stay in the Goldilocks zone.
> 
> We just finished dinner, I'm putting the last plate in the dishwasher M2 says: Would it be ok if we have some quiet time?
> 
> This is a polite and sincere request. Fine by me. Introverts need a certain amount of alone time.
> 
> So I smile and say sure and am about to head into another room of the house when M2 walks over and starts telling me about her day.
> 
> Proceeds to tell me a hilarious story about a wacko person she dealt with.
> 
> A very light push pull scenario.
> 
> Control is just as important as distance.


You aren't married to a deranged person who thinks you used to have sex with your mother....failing to see the significance...


----------



## MEM2020

3X
Excellent point. Let me try and connect the dots in a way that will hopefully make sense. 

When M2 feels tense, anxious or fearful she exhibits more and more of the traits listed in the BPD definition. 

When she's relaxed and feels safe, most of that stuff disappears.






3Xnocharm said:


> You aren't married to a deranged person who thinks you used to have sex with your mother....failing to see the significance...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

@TomNebraska, how are things going?


----------



## TomNebraska

Hi everyone.

sorry I haven't responded in a while. didnt mean to seek advice and then disappear.

been reading "Walking on Eggshells..." as recommended and it has helped.

wife and i have had a few therapy sessions which has also helped. there have been a few tense moments that i felt would normally blow up, but i've learned to handle with more aplomb. e.g. a few weeks ago wife claimed to have gotten into a text-message fight with my mom. i looked at her phone and read the messages when i got a chance (did not tell wife) and later when i asked wife her side of the story, she left out a lot of the context to make it sound like my mom was over the line... she more or less lied about it. she also blew up at my mom via text. i quietly texted my mom that i saw the msgs and told her not to take it personally. 

even tho i knew my wife was being dishonest, i heard her out and she calmed down. she later confessed she knew she was getting too upset over nothing

also my mom came for a visit last week and it went as well as could be hoped. wife still complained a lot and was kinda cold to my mom (but not rude) and everyone left on good terms. 

i've come to see that my wife seems to struggle to deal with her emotions correctly or helpfully... often getting emotional over unrelated or side issues, but with the right approach, I can get her to focus and calm down. 

I like to think this will eventually result in more understanding and thoughtful behavior from her. I don't know if i can endure the "emotional hand holding" forever, and its sure tiresome. when i see the anger/fight approaching, my instinct is to fight back and argue, so it's tough to suppress that. 

things are still less than ideal around the house. I wish she was a little more laid back and understandingg about things she doesnt like or agree with,!but I have seen some improvement. 

baby steps, I guess. can't expect things to improve overnight.


----------



## Uptown

Tom, thanks for returning after six weeks to give us an update. I was wondering how you two are doing.



TomNebraska said:


> I've been reading "Walking on Eggshells...."


Smart decision. If your W exhibits strong BPD traits as you and your therapist suspect, you likely will feel chills go up your spine as you read that book -- because it will describe so many of the experiences you've had in your own marriage.



> With the right approach, I can get her to focus and calm down. I like to think this will eventually result in more understanding and thoughtful behavior from her.... I have seen some improvement.


If your W is a BPDer as you suspect, CHANGE and IMPROVEMENT is exactly what you should be seeing. Emotionally unstable people typically exhibit very strong behavioral changes, including great improvement, every few weeks or few months. It therefore is extremely difficult to tell when a BPDer has made a permanent improvement or any lasting change. 

Like smokers who are always quitting and tossing the pack away every 6 weeks, BPDers usually will be seen exhibiting dramatic improvements periodically. Sadly, it is rare for these improvements to be lasting. Instead, what you're likely seeing -- if she has strong BPD traits -- is simply one more upswing in the never-ending roller coaster ride. I nonetheless hope that your W will prove me wrong in your case.


----------



## Bobby5000

Wife is nasty and dominating. She took a small incident and elevated it as an example of how to keep her husband in line. Her crazy comments about incest show this. You need to bang heads with your wife (but not physically) and get some control over this marriage.

"The kicker is, my wife talks to her mom and dad nearly every day." Her mom tells here she is right and needs to be more dominant. She sends your money to her family and complaint about one comment about hanging up a coat. Her degree of dominance and control over you is seriously dysfunctional.


----------



## TomNebraska

Well, it's been just over 2 1/2 years since I last posted in this thread. I was thinking about it the other day, because it really was helpful to me to address the issues in my marriage, and I wanted to post again to thank people (esp. @Uptown) for the good advice. 

This was the first I had ever heard of BPD, and it was helpful because I suspect my wife did have deeper issues - if not BPD, then certainly on the spectrum - and yet I did indeed find myself feeling like _*I*_ was going crazy at times. Persons with BPD's willingness to lie and try to warp your sense of self, ego, and perceptions of the world is so unsettling. 

Looking back over my posts here, I see how much of an effort I made to try to reach across the gulf of understanding between us; whenever I doubt my motivations and think maybe I was just looking for a way out of the marriage, I'm reminded of how much I did try to make it work.

If anyone is curious how it ended...

Shortly after my last post here, I did start seeing a T (confidentially, w/o telling my wife) for a few visits to learn to cope with the stress of work, _on top of_ all the hostility I'd receive when I'd get home. That helped me confirm I was not crazy at least! 

Despite that, and all the books, websites, etc. it proved impossible to really find a way to make our marriage a happy one, or even a tolerable one; ironically the only times I looked forward to being home were when we were in the midst of such a big fight, that I knew silent treatment was all I was in for after we put our kid to bed, and so I was free to do whatever I wanted, without a guilt trip, or a fight starting.

The only real way I was able to cope with her outbursts and dysregulation was to leave and go to the bar (not the healthiest way of coping), but leaving was not always possible, if for example we were out in public. I tried to shield our daughter from the fighting and avoid open conflict in front of her, but it wasn't always possible; my XW could just not control herself... or wasn't willing to. 

The absolute *ROCK BOTTO**M* period of our marriage was XMAS 2016, when I endured daily screaming matches for nearly 2 weeks straight, and even after successfully "listening w/empathy, validating her feelings, reassuring her of my commitment" (All the coping mechanisms books about BPD teach you to use)... _EVEN _doing all those things only really meant we went to bed quietly... but the fighting would start all over anew the next day, as though nothing was resolved. At some point, she broke down and confided in me that she had no idea why she was acting this way, couldn't control herself, and knew I hadn't done anything wrong. But of course... the next day it was like that conversation never happened. Truly bizarre.

At this point (early 2017), I was really just marking time, unsure of what would happen. She decided to go back to work, and was able to find a job quickly, so by Feb. 2017, she was fully employed. This brought some new challenges, but overall improved our relationship though only because her hours from 8am-5pm were now spent at work, instead of sitting at home, stewing, fighting on the internet with other moms, fighting with me via text, demanding to know exactly when I'd be home from work, etc. _SOOOOOooo _there was slightly less conflict.

False Start. Later in 2017 (August) we nearly got divorced when she flat out refused to let my mom come visit without imposing such ridiculous conditions as to make it unworkable, including that my mom stay no more than two nights in our house (she'd have 3 hour flight...?), I couldn't take any extra time off to be there, wife would pick up and drop her off at the airport w/out me, and my mom was not allowed to spend a second unsupervised with our daughter, because my wife was alleging now she may abuse or harm our child (completely baseless). When I argued this was unfair, and my mom hadn't visited us in over a year now, my wife told ME that if I didn't like it, I should divorce her! Well, I called her bluff, I guess...

We both saw attorneys, and I was ready to go through with it finally, when she called all my relatives, got some of them to pressure me to try to work it out (Not all of them would go along with her), and begged me to stay. *I caved*, and she promised to work on herself and admitted she had been way out of line.

Maybe a week later, she had already "re-written" the episode as me being "overly emotional" and overreacting to something she said that was not even worth fighting over. 

Well... from Sept. 2017 - Sept. 2018, we pretty much maintained the pattern... typically spending 30-40% of any month fighting or giving eachother the silent treatment. The rest of the time was spent together as a family, more or less okay, but only as I walked on eggshells and spent my time consciously avoiding conflict. It was always mentally exhausting. I had been journaling the fights, and whenever I'd look back, it would surprise me how often I'd forget about fights completely in a week... like I was mentally accepting the hostility and ST as "normal"

In April 2018 her mom came to live with us (_ironic? remember, I was the 'mama's boy'..._), which I agreed to because honestly it could only help, and it sort of did... her mom shouldered much of the childcare burden, meaning I had more free time, and my wife had one less thing to fight about (she viewed spending time alone with our daughter as below her, I think, and would get extremely hostile if she was watching our daughter while I was elsewhere, even if it was involved in chores, like mowing the lawn, building a retaining wall, re-insulating the attic, etc.) Crazy.

Final Straw. Things finally fell apart in September 2018; my mom came for a visit - we hadn't seen her in a year. My mom was even willing to put up with all the absurd stipulations my wife made around the visit, because she wanted to see us, and missed our daughter. Well, I complied with every single thing my wife demanded, and then _she still picked a huge fight_ on the last day over the visit over nothing; literally she simply started attacking my mom, and then me out of the blue, while we were all at lunch. My MIL was even shocked by her behavior, and seemed confused by it. The fight finally ended in a nuclear explosion, with her screaming at me and cursing at me at a kid's Bday party we attended after dropping my mom at the airport. Nuts!!! 

Well, I had told myself, this fight was "IT"... if after going through all this again, complying in good faith with her demands she was still going to pull this, I wasn't going to accept an apology, and move on like I always had in the past.

It wasn't just this fight of course. I had really tried to work it out, entirely for our daughter at this point. But I've read enough to know the fighting was damaging enough to her by itself. And even though I couldn't control what my XW would do and say around our daughter, I could at least give her quiet time and peace and stability when she was with me, to help her see how life _should _be. 

And I also saw through journaling fights and periods of silent treatment and lingering hostility that my XW could literally blow up over nothing, and even in "good months" we were still fighting/avoiding eachother close to half the time. Two days after telling me what a great husband I was, thanking me for mother's day lunch at the beach + a nice dinner, she was angrily demanding to look through my phone, and slamming a door in my face before I could even explain it was noon on a Tuesday, and I was answering an email from work. I wasn't going to endure that roller coaster for rest of my life. 

Anyway - after the bday party fight, we didn't talk for a week. then when we finally did, she asked me "what I had to say for myself"... when I said "nothing" she said "so we're getting a divorce then?" I said "Sure."

I think it shocked her when this time I actually went through with it. I had a lease on a rental townhome the next day, a lawyer, and filed for divorce a couple days later. She was served with the papers as she got home from work on a Friday... I was nice enough to not have them serve her at work (she had just started a new job), and do it on a Friday so she'd have the weekend to recover. 

Epilogue. I've now been divorced for about 2 months... have joint custody of our daughter. Happy, relieved, and moving forward with my life. 

The divorce process wasn't easy, but I kept it relatively cheap & quick by not "taking the bait" with some of her allegations and fighting more, asking for more than I was entitled to at law, and calling my own attorney out when he tried to provoke more conflict (!!!!). I consider myself lucky that she didn't try to go nuclear and accuse me of physical abuse or anything like that; I do think the cost of litigation - even without a lot of fighting in court - shocked her, and kept her honest. 

I'm aware there will likely be continual drama going forward; we have our daughter tying us together of course. I may have to go back to court to fight for sole or primary custody if needed, but until then will keep my powder dry. But for now, I feel I have my life back, and peace and quiet in my own house. 

What a wild ride!


----------



## Andy1001

Tom nobody can say that you didn’t give it your best shot. Now she’s someone else’s problem. 
Good luck in the future,you deserve it. 
I’m not sure whether you are religious or not but bear this in mind. If there’s a heaven then you will definitely be admitted,you’ve served your time in hell allready.


----------



## Openminded

Crazy usually isn't fixable. 

Glad to hear you finally got out.


----------



## AliceA

It's great that you are one of those people who will look for outside opinions and seek resources because you know you don't know everything! I did that all throughout my marriage (not marriage counselling though, as he wasn't interested), though we ended up divorcing too. Now you can say you gave it your best shot, but unfortunately you weren't a good match.

It sounds like you might have a bit of a rocky co-parenting relationship with your ex, though hopefully not. I can see your focus will now be on your daughter's well-being. I've had an author, Daniel Siegel, recommended to me from a family therapist. I just bought one of his books called "The Whole-Brain Child". Though I haven't read it yet, it looks promising, so if you're looking around for something to help you help your daughter (as they deal with grief and loss too when the family unit breaks apart, and ongoing struggles with two separate households), it might be worthwhile.


----------



## Uptown

Tom, what a wonderful surprise! I am so happy to hear that you managed to break yourself free from a marriage that was toxic to both of you. Thanks so much for returning to give us this 2.5 year update. 

As to your young daughter, I suggest you consider "parallel parenting" instead of co-parenting. See, e.g., You Can't Co-Parent With A Toxic Ex, But You Can Do This Instead. I mention this because co-parenting usually does not work very well with an untreated BPDer ex.


----------



## TomNebraska

AliceA said:


> It's great that you are one of those people who will look for outside opinions and seek resources because you know you don't know everything! I did that all throughout my marriage (not marriage counselling though, as he wasn't interested), though we ended up divorcing too. Now you can say you gave it your best shot, but unfortunately you weren't a good match.
> 
> ...


The nature of my XW's behavior, particularly the inconsistency, was really what drove me to seek advice. My initial gut feelings were that her complaints & demands were not made in good faith, and when I'd see that even when I tried to comply, she'd find another way to stir up hostility and conflict. I couldn't understand why someone would _intentionally _fight with their spouse, but when I learned about the nature of BPD, it made sense. 



Uptown said:


> Tom, what a wonderful surprise! I am so happy to hear that you managed to break yourself free from a marriage that was toxic to both of you. Thanks so much for returning to give us this 2.5 year update.
> 
> As to your young daughter, I suggest you consider "parallel parenting" instead of co-parenting. See, e.g., You Can't Co-Parent With A Toxic Ex, But You Can Do This Instead. I mention this because co-parenting usually does not work very well with an untreated BPDer ex.


I'm ahead of the curve on that, for a couple reasons. As my XW had brought up fears of "spousal alienation" well before we were even divorced, I knew she was just "projecting," and it was what _she _would do, so I read extensively about divorcing pwBPD & personal accounts of people who had gone through it. 

Early in the divorce process she brought up wanting to get our child therapy. I suspected she would "shop around" until she found one that validated her feelings, _like she did during our marriage_, so I had my atty vet three good child therapists, and let her pick from one of those. 

That limited the potential for abuse, but the results were predictable: after a few visits, she loudly announced that the child therapist wasn't helpful, a waste of her time and money, and she wanted to find a new one. So I had a clause written in the decree that for the sake of stability she had to stick with the one we vetted for at least 2 years after the decree. I also had written in we had to use a family message board that the judge could read for all communications, so she would understand that her behavior was always under scrutiny.

And I've embraced the parallel parenting model, and set my expectations low here, so I ignore minor provocations... and I know as long as she gets our kid to school, feeds her, provides for her basic needs, there's not much I can do. I have a set of everything my kid needs at my place, and have talked to her teachers, dr., etc. to make sure her needs are being met and there aren't any red flags I'm missing. 

XW has already been seeing a new guy who moved in with them (a lot of people told me to expect that), and so I think that's helped, since within a few months, she had someone new to fight with and scream at, instead of me.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry this happened to you. None of this was your fault and (especially in hind sight) there was nothing you could do to prevent your wife's mental illness.
It never was about your mother. I feel sorry for you as well as your mom (she didn't deserve this either).

Does your mom get to see her granddaughter?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I’m so glad you came back to update, and that you finally got out. It sounds like you really have a handle on things, you are to be commended for the way you have handled everything!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LimaTango

MattMatt said:


> Well, having studied mental health disorders as part of my training, and I know it's wrong to diagnose on scant evidence, I would say that in my opinion, your mom is a nice, loud mom.
> 
> But your wife is suffering from some mental health issues. And she is *not* a nice mom.
> 
> If she believes that my "beloved son" means you and your mother have had an incestual relationship, then your wife is sick.
> 
> She does not need psychotherapy... she needs psychiatry. Seriously.
> 
> And why allow your child to be raised by someone who is more than a few sandwiches short of a full picnic?


This was an amazing thread. and I'd like to point out that @MattMatt had this pegged early on that the issue was with the wife. Really, as soon as "incest" was mentioned, by his W... it was obvious that our poor OP TomNebraska was in a no win situation.

TomNebraska: I'm glad you made it out to relative safety. I'm certain this will help others who run into similar situations.


----------



## MattMatt

@TomNebraska thank you for being gracious enough to come back and give us an update.

I had no idea it had happened so long ago. Where has all the time gone?

Glad things are working out.


----------



## RubyRing

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry this happened to you. None of this was your fault and (especially in hind sight) there was nothing you could do to prevent your wife's mental illness.
> It never was about your mother. I feel sorry for you as well as your mom (she didn't deserve this either).
> 
> Does your mom get to see her granddaughter?


Just butting in here. If he has joint custody of his daughter, then I see no reason why his mother wouldn't be allowed to spend time with their daughter on his time.

OP - Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## nekonamida

Tom, I am intimately familiar with BPD. My MIL has it and oddly enough we're on amazing terms. My husband occasionally has symptoms too as a result of FLEAs (behavior picked up from his mom but not enough to constitute as a personality disorder). I've had friends over the years with BPD. Your wife doesn't just suffer from BPD. She's also a huge *******. 

She's one of the most ruthless people I have ever heard of outside of physical abuse. I'm sure her condition heightened her issues but I also think she was comfortable emotionally abusing you and thrived on the drama. She loved making you out to be the bad guy so much she had you firmly placed in that role almost 24/7 and sabotaged situations to make you at fault. If she couldn't do that, she'd fly off the handle for no reason with accusations just to feel good about herself. You can have a personality disorder and be a jerk to boot. 

I'm so glad you're free and doing well.


----------



## BluesPower

TomNebraska said:


> Well, it's been just over 2 1/2 years since I last posted in this thread. I was thinking about it the other day, because it really was helpful to me to address the issues in my marriage, and I wanted to post again to thank people (esp. @Uptown) for the good advice.
> 
> This was the first I had ever heard of BPD, and it was helpful because I suspect my wife did have deeper issues - if not BPD, then certainly on the spectrum - and yet I did indeed find myself feeling like _*I*_ was going crazy at times. Persons with BPD's willingness to lie and try to warp your sense of self, ego, and perceptions of the world is so unsettling.
> 
> Looking back over my posts here, I see how much of an effort I made to try to reach across the gulf of understanding between us; whenever I doubt my motivations and think maybe I was just looking for a way out of the marriage, I'm reminded of how much I did try to make it work.
> 
> If anyone is curious how it ended...
> 
> Shortly after my last post here, I did start seeing a T (confidentially, w/o telling my wife) for a few visits to learn to cope with the stress of work, _on top of_ all the hostility I'd receive when I'd get home. That helped me confirm I was not crazy at least!
> 
> Despite that, and all the books, websites, etc. it proved impossible to really find a way to make our marriage a happy one, or even a tolerable one; ironically the only times I looked forward to being home were when we were in the midst of such a big fight, that I knew silent treatment was all I was in for after we put our kid to bed, and so I was free to do whatever I wanted, without a guilt trip, or a fight starting.
> 
> The only real way I was able to cope with her outbursts and dysregulation was to leave and go to the bar (not the healthiest way of coping), but leaving was not always possible, if for example we were out in public. I tried to shield our daughter from the fighting and avoid open conflict in front of her, but it wasn't always possible; my XW could just not control herself... or wasn't willing to.
> 
> The absolute *ROCK BOTTO**M* period of our marriage was XMAS 2016, when I endured daily screaming matches for nearly 2 weeks straight, and even after successfully "listening w/empathy, validating her feelings, reassuring her of my commitment" (All the coping mechanisms books about BPD teach you to use)... _EVEN _doing all those things only really meant we went to bed quietly... but the fighting would start all over anew the next day, as though nothing was resolved. At some point, she broke down and confided in me that she had no idea why she was acting this way, couldn't control herself, and knew I hadn't done anything wrong. But of course... the next day it was like that conversation never happened. Truly bizarre.
> 
> At this point (early 2017), I was really just marking time, unsure of what would happen. She decided to go back to work, and was able to find a job quickly, so by Feb. 2017, she was fully employed. This brought some new challenges, but overall improved our relationship though only because her hours from 8am-5pm were now spent at work, instead of sitting at home, stewing, fighting on the internet with other moms, fighting with me via text, demanding to know exactly when I'd be home from work, etc. _SOOOOOooo _there was slightly less conflict.
> 
> False Start. Later in 2017 (August) we nearly got divorced when she flat out refused to let my mom come visit without imposing such ridiculous conditions as to make it unworkable, including that my mom stay no more than two nights in our house (she'd have 3 hour flight...?), I couldn't take any extra time off to be there, wife would pick up and drop her off at the airport w/out me, and my mom was not allowed to spend a second unsupervised with our daughter, because my wife was alleging now she may abuse or harm our child (completely baseless). When I argued this was unfair, and my mom hadn't visited us in over a year now, my wife told ME that if I didn't like it, I should divorce her! Well, I called her bluff, I guess...
> 
> We both saw attorneys, and I was ready to go through with it finally, when she called all my relatives, got some of them to pressure me to try to work it out (Not all of them would go along with her), and begged me to stay. *I caved*, and she promised to work on herself and admitted she had been way out of line.
> 
> Maybe a week later, she had already "re-written" the episode as me being "overly emotional" and overreacting to something she said that was not even worth fighting over.
> 
> Well... from Sept. 2017 - Sept. 2018, we pretty much maintained the pattern... typically spending 30-40% of any month fighting or giving eachother the silent treatment. The rest of the time was spent together as a family, more or less okay, but only as I walked on eggshells and spent my time consciously avoiding conflict. It was always mentally exhausting. I had been journaling the fights, and whenever I'd look back, it would surprise me how often I'd forget about fights completely in a week... like I was mentally accepting the hostility and ST as "normal"
> 
> In April 2018 her mom came to live with us (_ironic? remember, I was the 'mama's boy'..._), which I agreed to because honestly it could only help, and it sort of did... her mom shouldered much of the childcare burden, meaning I had more free time, and my wife had one less thing to fight about (she viewed spending time alone with our daughter as below her, I think, and would get extremely hostile if she was watching our daughter while I was elsewhere, even if it was involved in chores, like mowing the lawn, building a retaining wall, re-insulating the attic, etc.) Crazy.
> 
> Final Straw. Things finally fell apart in September 2018; my mom came for a visit - we hadn't seen her in a year. My mom was even willing to put up with all the absurd stipulations my wife made around the visit, because she wanted to see us, and missed our daughter. Well, I complied with every single thing my wife demanded, and then _she still picked a huge fight_ on the last day over the visit over nothing; literally she simply started attacking my mom, and then me out of the blue, while we were all at lunch. My MIL was even shocked by her behavior, and seemed confused by it. The fight finally ended in a nuclear explosion, with her screaming at me and cursing at me at a kid's Bday party we attended after dropping my mom at the airport. Nuts!!!
> 
> Well, I had told myself, this fight was "IT"... if after going through all this again, complying in good faith with her demands she was still going to pull this, I wasn't going to accept an apology, and move on like I always had in the past.
> 
> It wasn't just this fight of course. I had really tried to work it out, entirely for our daughter at this point. But I've read enough to know the fighting was damaging enough to her by itself. And even though I couldn't control what my XW would do and say around our daughter, I could at least give her quiet time and peace and stability when she was with me, to help her see how life _should _be.
> 
> And I also saw through journaling fights and periods of silent treatment and lingering hostility that my XW could literally blow up over nothing, and even in "good months" we were still fighting/avoiding eachother close to half the time. Two days after telling me what a great husband I was, thanking me for mother's day lunch at the beach + a nice dinner, she was angrily demanding to look through my phone, and slamming a door in my face before I could even explain it was noon on a Tuesday, and I was answering an email from work. I wasn't going to endure that roller coaster for rest of my life.
> 
> Anyway - after the bday party fight, we didn't talk for a week. then when we finally did, she asked me "what I had to say for myself"... when I said "nothing" she said "so we're getting a divorce then?" I said "Sure."
> 
> I think it shocked her when this time I actually went through with it. I had a lease on a rental townhome the next day, a lawyer, and filed for divorce a couple days later. She was served with the papers as she got home from work on a Friday... I was nice enough to not have them serve her at work (she had just started a new job), and do it on a Friday so she'd have the weekend to recover.
> 
> Epilogue. I've now been divorced for about 2 months... have joint custody of our daughter. Happy, relieved, and moving forward with my life.
> 
> The divorce process wasn't easy, but I kept it relatively cheap & quick by not "taking the bait" with some of her allegations and fighting more, asking for more than I was entitled to at law, and calling my own attorney out when he tried to provoke more conflict (!!!!). I consider myself lucky that she didn't try to go nuclear and accuse me of physical abuse or anything like that; I do think the cost of litigation - even without a lot of fighting in court - shocked her, and kept her honest.
> 
> I'm aware there will likely be continual drama going forward; we have our daughter tying us together of course. I may have to go back to court to fight for sole or primary custody if needed, but until then will keep my powder dry. But for now, I feel I have my life back, and peace and quiet in my own house.
> 
> What a wild ride!


Thanks for the update 

But I have a question.... Do you now understand the you were in an abusive relationship, that you allowed that and all the "Nice Guy" characteristics the are part of your personality, need to go away forever????

Do you realize that you need to never, ever, ever, accept this type of relationship again in your life, and in fact you need to actively avoid it????


----------



## TomNebraska

RubyRing said:


> Just butting in here. If he has joint custody of his daughter, then I see no reason why his mother wouldn't be allowed to spend time with their daughter on his time.
> 
> OP - Correct me if I am wrong.


No, you're correct. With joint custody, my family can (and has) visited since the divorce. XW can't do anything about that, although she wishes she could.



BluesPower said:


> Thanks for the update
> 
> But I have a question.... Do you now understand the you were in an abusive relationship, that you allowed that and all the "Nice Guy" characteristics the are part of your personality, need to go away forever????
> 
> Do you realize that you need to never, ever, ever, accept this type of relationship again in your life, and in fact you need to actively avoid it????


Yes. I'll be sure to be more of a **** to everyone I meet going forward. Thanks for the great advice.


----------



## Wolfman1968

TomNebraska said:


> Well, it's been just over 2 1/2 years since I last posted in this thread. I was thinking about it the other day, because it really was helpful to me to address the issues in my marriage, and I wanted to post again to thank people (esp. @Uptown) for the good advice.
> 
> This was the first I had ever heard of BPD, and it was helpful because I suspect my wife did have deeper issues - if not BPD, then certainly on the spectrum - and yet I did indeed find myself feeling like _*I*_ was going crazy at times. Persons with BPD's willingness to lie and try to warp your sense of self, ego, and perceptions of the world is so unsettling.
> 
> Looking back over my posts here, I see how much of an effort I made to try to reach across the gulf of understanding between us; whenever I doubt my motivations and think maybe I was just looking for a way out of the marriage, I'm reminded of how much I did try to make it work.
> 
> If anyone is curious how it ended...
> 
> Shortly after my last post here, I did start seeing a T (confidentially, w/o telling my wife) for a few visits to learn to cope with the stress of work, _on top of_ all the hostility I'd receive when I'd get home. That helped me confirm I was not crazy at least!
> 
> Despite that, and all the books, websites, etc. it proved impossible to really find a way to make our marriage a happy one, or even a tolerable one; ironically the only times I looked forward to being home were when we were in the midst of such a big fight, that I knew silent treatment was all I was in for after we put our kid to bed, and so I was free to do whatever I wanted, without a guilt trip, or a fight starting.
> 
> The only real way I was able to cope with her outbursts and dysregulation was to leave and go to the bar (not the healthiest way of coping), but leaving was not always possible, if for example we were out in public. I tried to shield our daughter from the fighting and avoid open conflict in front of her, but it wasn't always possible; my XW could just not control herself... or wasn't willing to.
> 
> The absolute *ROCK BOTTO**M* period of our marriage was XMAS 2016, when I endured daily screaming matches for nearly 2 weeks straight, and even after successfully "listening w/empathy, validating her feelings, reassuring her of my commitment" (All the coping mechanisms books about BPD teach you to use)... _EVEN _doing all those things only really meant we went to bed quietly... but the fighting would start all over anew the next day, as though nothing was resolved. At some point, she broke down and confided in me that she had no idea why she was acting this way, couldn't control herself, and knew I hadn't done anything wrong. But of course... the next day it was like that conversation never happened. Truly bizarre.
> 
> At this point (early 2017), I was really just marking time, unsure of what would happen. She decided to go back to work, and was able to find a job quickly, so by Feb. 2017, she was fully employed. This brought some new challenges, but overall improved our relationship though only because her hours from 8am-5pm were now spent at work, instead of sitting at home, stewing, fighting on the internet with other moms, fighting with me via text, demanding to know exactly when I'd be home from work, etc. _SOOOOOooo _there was slightly less conflict.
> 
> False Start. Later in 2017 (August) we nearly got divorced when she flat out refused to let my mom come visit without imposing such ridiculous conditions as to make it unworkable, including that my mom stay no more than two nights in our house (she'd have 3 hour flight...?), I couldn't take any extra time off to be there, wife would pick up and drop her off at the airport w/out me, and my mom was not allowed to spend a second unsupervised with our daughter, because my wife was alleging now she may abuse or harm our child (completely baseless). When I argued this was unfair, and my mom hadn't visited us in over a year now, my wife told ME that if I didn't like it, I should divorce her! Well, I called her bluff, I guess...
> 
> We both saw attorneys, and I was ready to go through with it finally, when she called all my relatives, got some of them to pressure me to try to work it out (Not all of them would go along with her), and begged me to stay. *I caved*, and she promised to work on herself and admitted she had been way out of line.
> 
> Maybe a week later, she had already "re-written" the episode as me being "overly emotional" and overreacting to something she said that was not even worth fighting over.
> 
> Well... from Sept. 2017 - Sept. 2018, we pretty much maintained the pattern... typically spending 30-40% of any month fighting or giving eachother the silent treatment. The rest of the time was spent together as a family, more or less okay, but only as I walked on eggshells and spent my time consciously avoiding conflict. It was always mentally exhausting. I had been journaling the fights, and whenever I'd look back, it would surprise me how often I'd forget about fights completely in a week... like I was mentally accepting the hostility and ST as "normal"
> 
> In April 2018 her mom came to live with us (_ironic? remember, I was the 'mama's boy'..._), which I agreed to because honestly it could only help, and it sort of did... her mom shouldered much of the childcare burden, meaning I had more free time, and my wife had one less thing to fight about (she viewed spending time alone with our daughter as below her, I think, and would get extremely hostile if she was watching our daughter while I was elsewhere, even if it was involved in chores, like mowing the lawn, building a retaining wall, re-insulating the attic, etc.) Crazy.
> 
> Final Straw. Things finally fell apart in September 2018; my mom came for a visit - we hadn't seen her in a year. My mom was even willing to put up with all the absurd stipulations my wife made around the visit, because she wanted to see us, and missed our daughter. Well, I complied with every single thing my wife demanded, and then _she still picked a huge fight_ on the last day over the visit over nothing; literally she simply started attacking my mom, and then me out of the blue, while we were all at lunch. My MIL was even shocked by her behavior, and seemed confused by it. The fight finally ended in a nuclear explosion, with her screaming at me and cursing at me at a kid's Bday party we attended after dropping my mom at the airport. Nuts!!!
> 
> Well, I had told myself, this fight was "IT"... if after going through all this again, complying in good faith with her demands she was still going to pull this, I wasn't going to accept an apology, and move on like I always had in the past.
> 
> It wasn't just this fight of course. I had really tried to work it out, entirely for our daughter at this point. But I've read enough to know the fighting was damaging enough to her by itself. And even though I couldn't control what my XW would do and say around our daughter, I could at least give her quiet time and peace and stability when she was with me, to help her see how life _should _be.
> 
> And I also saw through journaling fights and periods of silent treatment and lingering hostility that my XW could literally blow up over nothing, and even in "good months" we were still fighting/avoiding eachother close to half the time. Two days after telling me what a great husband I was, thanking me for mother's day lunch at the beach + a nice dinner, she was angrily demanding to look through my phone, and slamming a door in my face before I could even explain it was noon on a Tuesday, and I was answering an email from work. I wasn't going to endure that roller coaster for rest of my life.
> 
> Anyway - after the bday party fight, we didn't talk for a week. then when we finally did, she asked me "what I had to say for myself"... when I said "nothing" she said "so we're getting a divorce then?" I said "Sure."
> 
> I think it shocked her when this time I actually went through with it. I had a lease on a rental townhome the next day, a lawyer, and filed for divorce a couple days later. She was served with the papers as she got home from work on a Friday... I was nice enough to not have them serve her at work (she had just started a new job), and do it on a Friday so she'd have the weekend to recover.
> 
> Epilogue. I've now been divorced for about 2 months... have joint custody of our daughter. Happy, relieved, and moving forward with my life.
> 
> The divorce process wasn't easy, but I kept it relatively cheap & quick by not "taking the bait" with some of her allegations and fighting more, asking for more than I was entitled to at law, and calling my own attorney out when he tried to provoke more conflict (!!!!). I consider myself lucky that she didn't try to go nuclear and accuse me of physical abuse or anything like that; I do think the cost of litigation - even without a lot of fighting in court - shocked her, and kept her honest.
> 
> I'm aware there will likely be continual drama going forward; we have our daughter tying us together of course. I may have to go back to court to fight for sole or primary custody if needed, but until then will keep my powder dry. But for now, I feel I have my life back, and peace and quiet in my own house.
> 
> What a wild ride!


Thanks for coming back to give an update.

I think it is useful for people struggling with the same issues to learn from your situation, and to see how it pans out in the LONG run. Given these kind of updates are immensely helpful to others, I believe.

Thanks again for keeping us in the loop.


----------



## turnera

TomNebraska said:


> No, you're correct. With joint custody, my family can (and has) visited since the divorce. XW can't do anything about that, although she wishes she could.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I'll be sure to be more of a **** to everyone I meet going forward. Thanks for the great advice.


You still don't get it. Typical Nice Guy response. When we tell you to stand up for yourself (despite it being a BPD you're up against), we're not telling you to be a ****. We're telling you to be a calm, confident, strong man who doesn't take crap for anyone. 

A Nice Guy (read the book No More Mr Nice Guy) will instead think that when we say to be strong, we automatically mean he has to be a jerk. Cos a Nice Guy only sees good (a doormat) or evil (a monster). NON-Nice Guys are happy, confident, calm, and sure of their actions. I know it's hard to see that, having lived with a BPD, but I hope you can understand what we're saying, for your own sake.


----------



## TomNebraska

MattMatt said:


> @TomNebraska thank you for being gracious enough to come back and give us an update.
> 
> I had no idea it had happened so long ago. Where has all the time gone?
> 
> Glad things are working out.


Yeah. And you were right: she was deranged. 

I may have downplayed that when I first posted this thread, but it was my gut feeling all along. I wanted to be sure I was giving it a shot, as I did sincerely hope we could work things out, or at least could get them to a "tolerable" point. 

In the end, I think for our kids sake it was better we stuck it out as long as we did, although it's impossible to say what the future holds. But by filing for divorce when I did, we were more financially stable, and could bear the burden of that; plus she was able to start her career & has her mother here for support.

Had I left when I first figured I should (after our D's 1st bday - 4 1/2 years ago) she would've been living hand to mouth, and I'd be struggling to pay child support and alimony on my salary.

Another silver lining - the state where we eventually got divorced? No such thing as alimony here! once we divided the marital assets (which did *not *include all my pre-marriage assets!), all I owe going forward is child support. *Zing!*



nekonamida said:


> Tom, I am intimately familiar with BPD. My MIL has it and oddly enough we're on amazing terms. My husband occasionally has symptoms too as a result of FLEAs (behavior picked up from his mom but not enough to constitute as a personality disorder). I've had friends over the years with BPD. Your wife doesn't just suffer from BPD. She's also a huge *******.
> 
> She's one of the most ruthless people I have ever heard of outside of physical abuse. I'm sure her condition heightened her issues but I also think she was comfortable emotionally abusing you and thrived on the drama. She loved making you out to be the bad guy so much she had you firmly placed in that role almost 24/7 and sabotaged situations to make you at fault. If she couldn't do that, she'd fly off the handle for no reason with accusations just to feel good about herself. You can have a personality disorder and be a jerk to boot.
> 
> I'm so glad you're free and doing well.


Thanks, @nekonamida. 

And yeah, people with BPD's motivations are extreme. And they shouldn't get a pass for being BPD; as someone once pointed out to me, they are capable of controlling their behavior and reactions; you can see this when they meet new people, they can always turn on the charm & be unfailingly gracious. THey only save the nastiness for specific relationships/situations.

Interestingly, my XW had a childhood friend who I suspect had it even worse. 

This friend (we'll call her XWF) was also married, and was even physically abusive to her H. XW and XWF would speak on the phone regularly, and after XW would always tell me all the crazy things XWF did and said and fought about with her H. This was always awkward, because I'd be thinking to myself "_This sounds a little too familiar..._"

_ANYWAYS_, once XWF apparently told my XW that her goal - and "every woman's goal" should be to destroy their H's confidence & break him down, so that he doesn't cheat or leave them. XW claimed she thought that was crazy. But when it came down to it, whenever something would trigger her anxiety, or fear of abandonment, she'd resort to the same thing: anger, attacking, accusations, slamming doors, screaming, etc. etc. 

I read somewhere that this gets to be an addictive coping mechanism for them. They go from feeling weak and vulnerable, to being in control, and putting everyone around them on the defensive. Once this "works" for them, they can't stop doing it. 

@Uptown made the point earlier in the thread that marital counseling is often ineffective in these circumstances, because they teach communication skills, which does nothing to address the underlying issues. now, as I see it, I would say that's because one party is actively trying to create conflict, and is not interested in finding ways to resolve it.

Indeed, my XW seemed to view MC sessions as an opportunity to fight more, or triangulate, and get the T on her side to "prove" I was the problem, and she hadn't done anything wrong. 

I'd approach the sessions by preparing a summary my concerns, calmly describing events and behavior I didn't like and wanted to stop, and she'd start screaming about things that happened 3 years ago, 4 years ago, last week, last month, etc. And if the T called her out on it, she'd start to argue with the T...


----------



## TomNebraska

turnera said:


> You still don't get it. Typical Nice Guy response. When we tell you to stand up for yourself (despite it being a BPD you're up against), we're not telling you to be a d*ck. We're telling you to be a calm, confident, strong man who doesn't take crap for anyone.
> 
> A Nice Guy (read the book No More Mr Nice Guy) will instead think that when we say to be strong, we automatically mean he has to be a jerk. Cos a Nice Guy only sees good (a doormat) or evil (a monster). NON-Nice Guys are happy, confident, calm, and sure of their actions. I know it's hard to see that, having lived with a BPD, but I hope you can understand what we're saying, for your own sake.


No, I do get it.

I just don't know what you expect someone who is in a relationship with a mentally ill/disordered/high-conflict person to do about it. 

Being "calm, confident, and strong" isn't going to make the conflict stop. It's just a matter of how much you're willing to put up with before you leave. And if there are children in the picture, it's not as easy to just walk out, unless you're a sociopath willing to turn your back on your own kids and leave them alone with a dysfunctional parent.

I did what I had to do.


----------



## turnera

Tom, I was referring to your comment: "I'll be sure to be a **** to everyone I meet"

Thus my comment that you don't get what being a strong person looks like; strong men never have to be a ****. Even when they are dishing out consequences, they aren't a ****.


----------



## BluesPower

turnera said:


> You still don't get it. Typical Nice Guy response. When we tell you to stand up for yourself (despite it being a BPD you're up against), we're not telling you to be a d*ck. We're telling you to be a calm, confident, strong man who doesn't take crap for anyone.
> 
> A Nice Guy (read the book No More Mr Nice Guy) will instead think that when we say to be strong, we automatically mean he has to be a jerk. Cos a Nice Guy only sees good (a doormat) or evil (a monster). NON-Nice Guys are happy, confident, calm, and sure of their actions. I know it's hard to see that, having lived with a BPD, but I hope you can understand what we're saying, for your own sake.





TomNebraska said:


> No, I do get it.
> 
> I just don't know what you expect someone who is in a relationship with a mentally ill/disordered/high-conflict person to do about it.
> 
> Being "calm, confident, and strong" isn't going to make the conflict stop. It's just a matter of how much you're willing to put up with before you leave. And if there are children in the picture, it's not as easy to just walk out, unless you're a sociopath willing to turn your back on your own kids and leave them alone with a dysfunctional parent.
> 
> I did what I had to do.





turnera said:


> Tom, I was referring to your comment: "I'll be sure to be a **** to everyone I meet"
> 
> Thus my comment that you don't get what being a strong person looks like; strong men never have to be a ****. Even when they are dishing out consequences, they aren't a ****.


This exchange is so telling why Tom ever got into this type of situation in the first place. And all you "nice Guys" including Tom, need to listen. 

As @turnera already said above, none of this is about being a jerk. 

It is about recognizing the you are a human being, and understanding that you deserve to be treated properly. 

Part of the growth and learning that I was talking about was LEARNING what proper treatment actually looks like. 

So when you say "Being calm, confident, and strong isn't going to make the conflict stop" you are not understanding what we are saying. 

It is not how you take all you can take and then finally leave when you cannot take anymore.

The point is to LEARN and not get into those type of relationships at all, ever. Further, if you are dating someone and you notice someone acting like your ex or any other red flags, you break up with them, on the spot. 

Or, if they are not completely crazy, you calmly tell them that you do not accept that type of behavior, you stand up for yourself, and if the behavior does not change, you dump them and never look back.

So do you see what we are trying to say? It is not about being a jerk, it is about being a confident, strong and wise man...

Big difference between the two.


----------



## Uptown

> They are capable of controlling their behavior and reactions; you can see this when they meet new people, they can always turn on the charm & be unfailingly gracious.


Tom, pwBPD lack the coping skills that others learn in childhood. Hence, by definition, they are NOT capable of controlling their behavior very well. Indeed, the key feature of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions. 

This is why a large segment of the American Psychiatric Assoc. has been lobbying for over two decades to rename this disorder "Emotional Regulation Disorder." And this is why Europeans call it "_Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder."_ 

The reason that pwBPD behave so well around casual friends, business associates, and total strangers is not that they are able to control their emotions when it suits them -- i.e., it is not because they choose to turn on the charm. Rather, it is because a pwBPD has no need to control his emotions around those folks. 

None of them poses a threat to his two fears: abandonment and engulfment. They thus do not trigger his fears and anger. There is no close relationships that can be abandoned -- and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of being engulfed and controlled.

This is not to say, however, that a pwBPD cannot LEARN how to control his emotions if he works hard in a weekly training program (e.g., DBT) that teaches him those emotional regulation skills. But like learning to play a piano, that learning process for acquiring coping skills will require many years to achieve.

I therefore agree with you that it is important to hold a pwBPD accountable for his bad behaviors and bad choices. This means he must be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of his behavior. Otherwise, you are harming him by destroying all incentives he otherwise would have to confront his own issues and learn how to manage them.


----------



## AVR1962

TomNebraska said:


> well, she's a good mom. Our daughter is healthy, smart, and happy.
> 
> I think she's mostly a good wife as well... it's just this issue.
> 
> I was pretty offended by the incest thing (and that wasn't the only time she accused me of that), but for the sake of marital bliss, I didn't dwell on it. I'm pretty shocked she thinks that sort of accusation and escalation is/was okay at the time, and equally shocked she seemed to think she could prove it or I would accept it.
> 
> Also, around this time, when I'd argue with her, if I got upset and raised my voice, she was quick to call my comments "abuse"... I suspect she read somewhere that it was important to call out abuse or something. The allegations of abuse hit me like a brick.


I get the feeling your wife feels you are too close to your mother, possibly sees you influenced or weakened by your mother's desires, and are not a strong support for her and is lashing out because she does not feel heard. I think what is coming across is her frustration to a situation that she is fed up with. You both need to sit down and calmly assess the situation and find out what is at the root of what she is feeling and see if you can comprehend and perhaps both of you can come to an agreement.


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## TomNebraska

AVR1962 said:


> I get the feeling your wife feels you are too close to your mother, possibly sees you influenced or weakened by your mother's desires, and are not a strong support for her and is lashing out because she does not feel heard. I think what is coming across is her frustration to a situation that she is fed up with. You both need to sit down and calmly assess the situation and find out what is at the root of what she is feeling and see if you can comprehend and perhaps both of you can come to an agreement.


Uh... I suggest you check the dates on this post, and read through the rest of the thread.


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## AVR1962

TomNebraska said:


> Uh... I suggest you check the dates on this post, and read through the rest of the thread.


Was responding to what came up in my email.


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