# Don't think I love him any more, but still want to make this work



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I think it's time I collect everything in one spot. H and I are 3 weeks away from my move-out date and I'm feeling excited and hopeful.

Here's our background:
Together 13 years (we met when I was 21 and he was 26)
Married almost 9
2 kids, 7 and 4

Trouble started after the first was born and intensified a lot after the second. I suspect, and 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work reinforced, that we didn't adjust well to parenthood as a couple, and instead of drawing us closer together, we started to move apart.

All of the issues that parenthood exacerbated were present before we got married, and I can see now how much I minimized red flags and even worse, actively ignored qualities in H that worried me and instead projected what I wanted to see. I think we both did this--create images of each other instead of really truly getting to know each other. 

So, now, here we are. I resent H for not being the person I imagined him to be. I felt awful, truly awful, for that, and tried telling him that I was starting to feel unhappy very gently, because even the thought of hurting his feelings was unbearable. I've noticed how miserable I'll let myself get to avoid even possibly hurting his feelings, and I'm not sure what to make of that. I think one of the things I need to learn is to truly value myself and my own happiness. 

My husband is self-centered and immature (this is the guy how left a non-swimming 3 year old alone in a swimming pool, with no life jacket, because he suddenly felt like shooting hoops). I've asked him for more intimacy and affection, but he has mostly ignored those requests. He might initiate sex a few times, but then it was back to only getting it on his schedule. I weigh exactly what I did when we got married, so it's not that. And it's not just sex, pretty much every time I ask for something, he'll say yes, but then not do it. This was really confusing to me for a long time. I thought he was the nicest guy in the world because he always said yes to whatever I wanted! It took me a very long time to realize a yes in words doesn't mean a yes in actions, and his actions usually said no.

So, that's the very short version. I'm angry with myself for creating him in my mind rather than getting to know the real him, and I'm angry with him for all the lies and emotional neglect. I let way too much resentment build because I thought my feelings didn't matter enough to be addressed by him. Now I feel utterly shut down. I must love him somewhere deep down, but I don't feel it. Maybe I don't. 

We're separating because I have to leave the country and he wants to stay behind for a few months. What I want from this time is for him to make an effort to be a more pro-active partner and address his role in neglecting me for so long, and for myself to let go of the old resentment and start fresh. To divorce the old marriage and start a new one, with two more mature people who are willing to be responsible for their own happiness and treat each other with respect.

I'm actually not even that worried about not feeling the love any more. I'm pretty hopeful that two people who are committed to the relationship and each other, and who meet each others needs, can fall back in love. If it turns out that we're really so incompatible that that's not possible, well, I'll deal with that in a few years. 

Any advice from people who've been here is most welcome. We've started marriage counseling in the country we're in, and H is going to continue IC with her while I start up IC in the states. We'll do family counseling when he's back to address the parenting issues. I need to learn about how to enforce my boundaries within the marriage in a positive way, and generally work on my self-esteem. I need to value my own happiness and provide it for myself.

It's a lot, but I'm 100% committed. Neither one of us has ever responded to our problems with an EA or PA, so I think that's one huge thing we have going for us.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters"?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Not the books, but everything on the marriage builders website. I've taken the quizzes for both of us, but so far H hasn't. He said he would, and I sent him the links, but then he didn't. Kind of another words/actions mismatch. But not that important really, because I identify with nearly all of the love languages, so either I'm needy or I'll take love no matter how you're giving it to me. Lol.

I've told him what my love busters are, and I'm pretty sure I know what his are. I've made a big effort to stop love busting him and he's really cut down on his lying, and I think we're starting to see improvement because of that. Ultimately I'd like to see him read the website or books himself, but I can't make him.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I've also read 7 Principles and Divorce Busters. I started with 7 Principles and asked H to read it too so we could do the exercises together, but he didn't. So then I got Divorce Busters because the website said I could do that one by myself. Divorce Busters was the one that really made me realize that my happiness is 100% in my hands and that I need to take charge of that.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Ah, and to pre-empt your next question, we don't spend 15 hours a week together just the two of us. We used to, even while things were falling apart, but we're in a strange situation because we both work from home. We certainly do NOT get enough time apart from each other! Togetherness is good, but too much togetherness is not. We're talking 23 hours a day in each other's presence. 

I'm hoping the separation will help on that front. And when my younger daughter starts Kindy, I will take my work out of the house to a coffee shop or something.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Please check out BaggageReclaim.co.uk. Particularly the posts about compatibility. If his actions don't match his words, he is lacking integrity. Is that something you require in a healthy relationship? (Personally I believe it is necessary, but I didn't realize this when I was just beginning my journey here a year ago.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I should add that my ex was a prime example of a man who said all the right things but rarely took action. I listened to his words and ignored his lack of action, and wasted five years I will never get back. The rest of your issues are important, but if he doesn't fix this one, the relationship will never be truly healthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I do agree with you, but nothing will be a dealbreaker for me until our girls are out of the house. I know a lot of people disagree with that, but for now that's where I am. I'm going to bring this up with my IC because I'm not sure if it's a healthy protection of my kids or me putting everyone else ahead of myself again. But for now, that's where it stands.

I'm not sure if there's a healthy way to set a boundary regarding this behavior even if it's not a dealbreaker though. That's something I generally struggle with him with--setting boundaries and enforcing them when they're disregarded. I'll check out that website anyway. Thanks!


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I should add that my ex was a prime example of a man who said all the right things but rarely took action. I listened to his words and ignored his lack of action, and wasted five years I will never get back. The rest of your issues are important, but if he doesn't fix this one, the relationship will never be truly healthy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i was this type of man for years.
now that i back my words with action, its a whole 'nother ball game.
and even though my marriage has suffered extreme trauma in the last few years, we are on the track to having a fantastic marriage and (more importantly) a true partnership.
accountablility.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I and many other here struggle greatly with boundaries. You will see on BR just how common all of these issues are. Having children adds complexity, and I'm glad you will be getting help from the counselor. Improving your self esteem and sorting out your values, boundaries and dealbreakers will be good for your kids in the long run. They need a healthy, balanced mother, especially when dad isn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Very true naga -- without integrity and accountability, a true partnership can not exist. When one person acts like a child, the other compensates by acting like a parent, and resentment grows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> Very true naga -- without integrity and accountability, a true partnership can not exist. When one person acts like a child, the other compensates by acting like a parent, and resentment grows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yep. and thats exactly why my wife grew to resent me so much that in her head it was allowable for her to have an affair.
im a wholly different person than i was then...BECAUSE i hold myself accountable, instead of relying on her to do it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you have worked through the love busters on the website then I don't think you need to book on that one.

You have say that identify with all of the love languages. That does not mean you are needy. I would take that as meaning you are flexible and recognized love when it's offered in many forms.

I would still recommend that you get "His Needs, Her Needs" as it goes into it much more detail than the website does.

Have you identified specific things that you need for your husand to do to meet your needs?

Obviously him backing up his words with actions is one of them. 

You are right that time apart is a big one for the two of you. Do you two work in the same room? If so could you split your workspace up so that the two of you are in different rooms and so do notsee as much of each other?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If you have worked through the love busters on the website then I don't think you need to book on that one.
> 
> You have say that identify with all of the love languages. That does not mean you are needy. I would take that as meaning you are flexible and recognized love when it's offered in many forms.
> 
> ...


In the past I've told him specific things that I needed from him. He didn't do them. Now, I'm too afraid. I feel like every little disappointment puts me back to square one. It's one of the reasons I'm hopeful time apart will be helpful for us. I'm just feeling so sensitive and wounded, and even if he were the perfect man he's still human, so it's inevitable that I'll end up feeling let down. But when we're apart, he can't let me down, and I can heal. That's the plan anyway. But, I will definitely communicate this during our separation, because I'm sure he ultimately has no idea what I want. I've told him, but getting him to retain information is proving difficult.

I wonder if we should make a promise to email? I'm partial to email, because he doesn't seem to remember when I tell him things (also, he was diagnosed with an auditory processing disorder recently, so I'm not sure how much of that is an actual neurological problem and how much is personality). 

Right now we work in different rooms, and it's a little bit helpful. But I'm almost never alone because when the kids aren't at school, it's all me. I think I need to be alone sometimes and learn to not be so afraid of that.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

naga75 said:


> yep. and thats exactly why my wife grew to resent me so much that in her head it was allowable for her to have an affair.
> im a wholly different person than i was then...BECAUSE i hold myself accountable, instead of relying on her to do it.


Is there anything short of your wife having an affair that could have provoked the same change in you??


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maybe the two of you can do some counseling on how to make changes in one's life. You might even find some websites that he might, maybe, read.

To make something a habit, do it for 3 weeks. After that it's a habit.

I find that writing todo lists help. Sometimes I'll put on the mirror that is use in the morning. It's a good reminder.

I use Microsoft Outlook as my day planner for work and at home. One thing that works is to add personal reminders. For example you tell him that you want him to tell you he loves you... he could put "appointments" in his planner for doing this. Then when I pops up he could use different things... send an email, a text, (even if you are sitting right next to him)... an ecard... or just look at you and tell you that he loves you.

After 3 weeks of reminders it would be habit... or he can leave the reminders on forever... I'd certainly do something like that to train myself in new behaviors.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I've said the exact same thing to him about new habits! I've asked him to write out (admittedly vague) goals and tape them up next to his computer.

I will ask him to do this again. Is programming his calender with reminders going to far?

I've also considered telling him that I won't want him to come back home unless I see X concrete changes, but I haven't. First of all, it's his home too, and I believe I have no right to tell him he's not welcome there. I have told him my feelings for him might be irreparably damaged, but that hasn't done the trick. Is it ok to lie for the better good? To threaten the possibility of divorce if I have no intention of following through for the next 10 years? What's the line between trying to motivate him and continuing the parent/child dynamic by doing it for him? Is this another question for the marriage counselor? We see her on Monday.

Thank you so much for your advice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you threaten him with divorce, he might just file as a preemptive measure. So if you bring it up you'd better be ready for divorce.

Personally I think it's just wrong to stay married to someone with a plan to divorce them in 10 years. The only way it's right is to tell them that this is your plan. He has as much right as you do to decide if he wants to be in a marriage that is just waiting for children to grow up. 


If you stay with him with this intent to divorce in 10 years, then this is the type of relationship you are teaching your children. They will grow up to expect what you have and they will most likely recreate it because this is what they are comfortable with. Do you really want your marriage to be your children's legacy?

When your children find out that you stayed for 10 years for them, they will most likely not be impressed. they will not think "oh how wonderful mom is to sacrifice her own happiness for us." Nope. Instead they will think that you were wrong to drag them through a family life with no love and then to blame them for you doing this. This is not something children tend to respect their parents for.

From what you have said, your husband is not willing to do the work to change his habits to meet your needs. So your choices are 

1) get a divorce so that each of you can find someone you are compatible with or live on your own should you choose that. 

2) Just keep doing the same things you have been doing that do not get you want you want. Remember that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is called insanity. 

3) You change. You stop asking him for all these changes. Instead you work on YOU being a better person, getting your needs met by others (not an affair) and by healthy activities. He either pays attention to your changes and changes himself or he does not.

I get the impression that one of the major problems in your relationship is that he does not want his wife telling him what to do. Do he agrees with you then does nothing. So stop telling him what to do. Identify your needs and how you need to have them met. This is so that as your husband changes you will know if things are going well or not.

You said that you read "Divorce Busters" right? Remember the idea she spoke about that one person can change their marriage by changing their own outlook and behavior. Remember the story about the otter?

The book talks about the 180. Not the 180 that everyone posts on this forum (not the one linked to below). Instead a 180 designed for you. Do exactly the opposite of what you have been doing. Stop asking him for things and to change. Instead start going out and doing things. Act happy/cheerful even if you are not. Make him wonder what is going on with you. Make him wonder why you are no longer looking to him to get your needs filled. And be a happy, cheerful, energetic and interesting person that any man would want to spend time with. Make him have to wake up and notice you and pay attention to you this way.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I have told him that as things stand, I'll leave when the kids are grown. He's ok with that. Well, he says he'll change my mind in those 10 years, but I'm afraid I've given him a free pass to start changing in 8 years. 

Yes, #3, that's what I want. I don't want to get sucked back into trying to fix him instead of myself. I know that's a way that I've dodged my own responsibility for me and my role in the relationship, and I don't want to go back there. I feel like living where we are, where I don't speak the language and have no friends, has made everything so much worse. I'm sure that getting back home will be a huge boost.

I do agree that a marriage for the sake of the kids isn't the ideal, but I'm not sure it's worse than a divorce. Regardless, I'm not done fixing my issues, so I'm not ready to consider a divorce. First I will succeed at number three, then I will give H time to respond. Then I will re-evaluate.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

northernlights said:


> I have told him that as things stand, I'll leave when the kids are grown. He's ok with that. Well, he says he'll change my mind in those 10 years, but I'm afraid I've given him a free pass to start changing in 8 years.
> 
> Yes, #3, that's what I want. I don't want to get sucked back into trying to fix him instead of myself. I know that's a way that I've dodged my own responsibility for me and my role in the relationship, and I don't want to go back there. I feel like living where we are, where I don't speak the language and have no friends, has made everything so much worse. I'm sure that getting back home will be a huge boost.
> 
> *I do agree that a marriage for the sake of the kids isn't the ideal, but I'm not sure it's worse than a divorce. Regardless, I'm not done fixing my issues, so I'm not ready to consider a divorce. First I will succeed at number three, then I will give H time to respond. Then I will re-evaluate*.


I agree with this approach. It’s the one I took with my son’s father. In the end I did file for divorce. But by that time I could honestly say that I tried everything I could and that I had grown a lot as a person. It was worth doing. I only wish that I had read some of the books like the divorce busting and marriage builder’s books at that time. I did not find them until years later.


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## singlemama (Mar 9, 2013)

No real advice to give but I just wanted to comment that this is my almost exact situation, except my H was the one who wanted to separate and did indeed move out...but it was confusing a bit to me as well, because ever since our daughter was born two years ago I've had nagging feelings of "this isn't quite right...." It seems sad to want to stay in a marriage like that, but like you I feel like I would do whatever it takes for us stay a family. I am doing IC too, H has expressed an interest but hasn't made any move to go. I also believe he's thinking in terms of "the grass may be greener elsewhere" which is really too bad because I think if we had communicated better he would enjoy his life a lot more with me. I have told him exactly what I need from our relationship and he hasn't changed his ways really....it seems like maybe I should be happy to leave this unfullfiling marriage but I am still so so sad about it.

I will be following this thread closely, I see so many similarities between our stories. I guess I just wanted to say that you aren't alone.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you singlemama. I wish you weren't in such a similar situation. 
I had suggested/asked for marriage counseling with H a half-dozen times in 3 years but he'd always said no. I should have just gone ahead and booked it and gone myself if he wasn't interested, but I was too scared. It's good that you're going yourself now.
Good luck to you. I hope everything works out.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Alright, I had a bit of a revelation the other day. I was telling H that in order to feel loved, I need him to show concern about my well-being. I have a bad habit of reacting with denial to scary physical symptoms (I had a small lump in my breast and decided "wait and see" rather than "check with doctor" was the best course of action. It didn't go away and I ended up going and it was just a fatty cyst). 

So, I'm telling him (as I put away the dishes) that I want him to show me his concern because not responding and never asking me about the symptom again makes me feel like he doesn't care. Which honestly he probably forgot about the lump, because he's a selfish person who only thinks about himself. But I was proud of myself for not saying that, and just non-judgementally stating my feelings and needs so that they'd be on his radar and he could start meeting them.

And I look up from putting the dishes away and he wasn't even in the room! He'd walked out. In the middle of me telling him about my needs.

So, lesson learned. Talking about my needs has never gotten me anywhere but hurt. So initiating yet another conversation was stupid and me just asking for more hurt. If he gets to the point where he's interested in meeting my needs or showing me love, he can ask me how to effectively do that. Ugh, I mentioned the love languages survey at marriage counseling today (the one I emailed him) and he didn't even know what I was talking about. Our marriage counselor talks about him being "behind a wall" or in "his own bubble" but I think that's psychotherapist talk for selfish, yeah?

Anyway, I finally get it. NO MORE ASKING HIM TO MAKE ME FEEL LOVED. I will fulfill all of my own needs. I will not look to him to fulfill my idea of the role of spouse. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have a spouse for the moment. I will work on me and my happiness, and also on forgiving him for all the past hurt. If he gets to a point where he's capable of sustaining a mature, adult relationship and I'm interested, we can give it a go. But I'm not going to feel guilt or responsibility for a person who can't even give me the basic courtesy of staying in the room while I'm talking.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's my thoughts... Your husband doesn't care about you or your marriage. Trying to meet his needs, worrying about what you need to do, etc. is useless, because all you're doing is giving him what he needs/wants without any consideration to him meeting YOUR needs. So he has no reason to change his behaviour.

Heck, he can't even be bothered to go through a website quiz or read a book. If that doesn't tell you how little he cares about you and your relationship, I don't know what will. Basically, you're working hard to fill up his love bank, and he's just saying "Hey, thanks for that" but can't be bothered to reciprocate.

To finish off my thoughts... You have two choices. Accept things the way they are, and stop trying to change him. But also stop trying to meet his needs. Or start making preparations to separate/leave. Until he knows that he has to change, he won't. Be prepared for a temporary change, that he would use just to suck you back in.

Do NOT threaten divorce unless you're willing to back it up. He most likely will need to see you're going through with it before he'll take it seriously. And if you don't follow throu in your threat, you'll be teaching him that you can safely be ignored (again).

C


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I have such overwhelming guilt because I don't love him any more. The marriage counselor didn't help at all in this regard, because at every session she talks about how she can tell how much he loves me. I told her today that I just don't believe it. I don't believe that you can love someone and be content to watch them suffer. He admitted at marriage counseling that he (or, "part of him," whatever that means) is just waiting for me to drop this whole business so we can go back to the way we were. Me miserable but giving it my all, him happy as a clam.

And yet the marriage counselor continues to tell me that he loves me very much. Finally I said, "you know, I'm sure wife beaters love their wives too. But it matters that he shows his love."

Because yeah, maybe he does love me. I'm a fantastic wife! I make the food he likes for dinner, I'm a fantastic mother, I'm high drive and attractive, I'm intelligent, I'm funny. He should love me! But all I end up feeling is guilt, because he supposedly loves me, so if I leave, it's all on me. I'll be the one tearing up a happy family. What kind of mother does that?

The MC wasn't all bad, she did encourage me to decide if this relationship can ever make me happy and that I need to move on if it won't. But there's so much guilt there too... isn't it better if I could just change into the kind of person that could be happy in this relationship than to put my kids through a divorce? Or if I could just be happy enough with the rest of my life that I don't care that my marriage is empty?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just a quick update: we're 2 weeks into the separation and he wants to come home in another 2 weeks. He did ask me once of that was ok, but it was over skype with the kids around, so we didn't discuss it. I could initiate an email, but I don't even want to at this point. It's his house too and he's been away from the kids, so I won't tell him to not come back.

I'm just going to enjoy the last 2 weeks as much as I can and try to finish recharging. I don't miss him a bit and am not looking forward to his coming home. I'm not lonely in the house without it, my days aren't that much busier because he never helped with the kids or housework anyway, and now I don't have to clean up after him or cook for him. BUT, I've thought long and hard about divorcing, and the reality is that I will not give up full custody of the kids. Plus the younger one would never stay more than a few hours a week with him and not me, so it would be a disaster to try to enforce fair visitation. 

Maybe when they're bigger. I'm going to plan and prepare for an eventual divorce, just not yet. H knows how I feel and has known every step of the way, but nothing in his actions tell me that he's willing to do anything about it. 

So, I dunno, it's probably the situation a lot of people are in and I thought knowing what I've chosen and how that plays out might help someone make a similar decision some day.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I could just a easily ask what kind of mother models a loveless marriage where Mom does everything and dad lays around and doesn't lift a finger to her kids. I was where you are and I left him so I understand, but know that our kids are fine, and they see him regularly. My ex also never lifted a finger, so when he left my workload didn't increase at all but I didn't have to deal with his bs. Why should your hb lift a finger? He knows there's no consequence. if you've made up your mind to be a martyr ( sorry for the harsh tone, it's coming from a caring place) maybe you should try doing a little less catering to his needs and a little more taking care of your own. Marriage is about a balance of both partners needs. Besides, maybe if you don't do anything for him he'll want to leave. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I could just a easily ask what kind of mother models a loveless marriage where Mom does everything and dad lays around and doesn't lift a finger to her kids.


I totally get this too. A rock and a hard place... I think in a few years, when the kids are more independent (they're 4 and 7 now, and they're both mama's girls), maybe then I'll be able to accept less than 100% custody. I'm not there yet though, and I know the little one especially would be really, really upset to be forced into a shared custody situation. 

Depressing (in waves) to be sure, but I'm working on me and putting my energy into work.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Well, H went ahead and booked a return ticket without discussing it with my any further. I knew he would, but I'm done initiating "relationship" discussions, and of course he refuses to do it. Skyping with him is painful (I have to participate in the conversation to get the girls to talk to him.) They don't seem to miss him at all, which means I'll have to renew my efforts to improve his relationship with them (I know, it should be his job, but I work on his relationship with the girls for their benefit, not his).

Anyway, I'm not excited that he's coming back. It's been so much more relaxed around here with him gone. Ugh. I guess the challenge for me will be to keep my zen even with him around... One month wasn't nearly enough time for me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Just bear in mind that children are very perceptive --- even young children. They will at some point pick up on the disharmony. Some will ask questions and some won't. But they will know.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I know. My older girl is so perceptive, I thought for a bit there she was actually psychic (don't laugh! She's super empathetic, and then she started reading at 2. It just seemed more plausible to me that she was reading my mind than actually reading.)

I'm trying to be mindful of what I'm modelling to them. Right now I'm shooting for commitment to vows and family and forgiveness. 

I wish I could do better. I wish I could show them what a loving, mutually respectful relationship looks like.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I know. My older girl is so perceptive, I thought for a bit there she was actually psychic (don't laugh! She's super empathetic, and then she started reading at 2. It just seemed more plausible to me that she was reading my mind than actually reading.)
> 
> I'm trying to be mindful of what I'm modelling to them. Right now I'm shooting for commitment to vows and family and forgiveness.
> 
> I wish I could do better. I wish I could show them what a loving, mutually respectful relationship looks like.


I know. I understand completely. It's hard.


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## d2snow (Mar 17, 2013)

Northern, your husband sounds a lot like mine - very passive aggressive. His words don't match his actions. Seems on the outside like a super nice guy, but with a lot of sugar-coated hostility. 

I took a job transfer to another city and took the opportunity as a trial separation. We had other issues but he always refused to go for MC. Then he always said when he found a job here he would join me. Well he got a super job offer with relocation paid, but he turned it down! 

Long story short, I told him I would be filing for divorce. He's unhappy about that, tells me he loves me so much, yada, yada, but refuses to do anything to improve our marriage. So his head is in the sand, refusing to see reality. 

Passive aggressiveness is basically a form of dishonesty. Everything the say will do, never actually gets done.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

d2snow said:


> Passive aggressiveness is basically a form of dishonesty. Everything the say will do, never actually gets done.


I'm such a sucker, and I believed him for SO LONG. He'd lie to my face, too, but then he'd lie about having lied, or invent some excuse, or just start to deny having ever said anything at all (which is CRAZY-MAKING to me!!). Finally, still believing him, I asked him to see his father's neurologist (his father has severe dementia). H actually agreed, and I was pretty convinced we'd uncover a cognitive explanation. Then the tests came back, and while there were problems, none that explained the lying (dyslexia, auditory processing disorder, co-ordination problems, things like that).

I was devastated. I finally had to acknowledge that there was no excuse, he'd chosen to treat me badly.

I think I'm actually just now getting to the anger. How could he do that to me? Our younger daughter didn't sleep through the night until she was FOUR YEARS OLD. I nearly had a nervous break-down when she was three. I begged him, crying, for MONTHS to let me sleep in, but he would do things like open the bedroom door in the morning "so I wouldn't sleep all morning," or wake me up himself for the stupidest of reasons (like to ask me how to make pancakes).

I'm not totally sure what to do with this anger. I think that repressing it and beating myself up for not being able to skip straight to forgiving him has been counter-productive, but I don't know anything about how to use anger productively. I need a good self-help book. I'm going to hit up the library tomorrow and see if there's anything there for me. Any suggestions from anyone that pertain to where I am right now?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Finally, after 45 years of marriage, I'm getting out. I'm very optimistic about my life going forward but I really wish I had done it much sooner.
> 
> Just don't make that mistake.


Something tells me I'm going to wish I'd just done it now if I can manage to wait 10 years. As more time goes by though, I'm thinking that unless he makes an effort, it's only going to be 2-3 years before I file.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Well, I'm reading The New Codependency, and it's interesting, but not in an OMG-yes-that's-totally-me way. I certainly identify with some of the behaviors, especially the parts about neglecting self-care, but that came about in more of an attempting to be super-woman with little not-sleeping children. Also I can see how much I thought I could "fix" H's problems for him, so those parts are useful too.

He comes home in 5 days. Ugh. I've so enjoyed the last month with just me and the girls, but I know that's fantasy life and not how a divorce would be either, because I'd have to share them if we were divorced and now I have them 100% of the time. The idea is still unacceptable to me, so I'm still determined to just press on and make the best.

But I'm certainly done trying to fix this marriage. H knows where I am and how I feel. I don't think it's possible for my feelings for him to return at this point, though I'm trying to leave that door open anyway.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Well, he's been back for a few days, which is awkward and uncomfortable, but aside from that I'm actually feeling really good. The girls and I had a great month together, and I'm really learning a lot about myself.

Just finished reading this link that Conrad posted in a thread (An Overview of the Drama Triangle) and it's amazing. I can see clearly now that I've been paralzyed by the guilt I feel when I even consider divorcing H. These last few years have been one big episode of me stuffing down any negative feelings and excusing/ignoring bad behavior on H's part because feeling them or setting up boundaries feels like a threat to my marriage, which is a threat to my children's family, which leaves me feeling overwhelmed with guilt, which makes me just want to pretend everything is fine.

So, yeah. H was an ass to me, over and over again. I'm angry with him, and I'm hurt, and I'm sad. But I'm sick of feeling guilty and bad for being treated badly and feeling the feelings that any person would naturally feel after being treated badly. There may not be way to emerge from all of this without anyone being hurt... that's just one unfortunate part of life. I really can't control everything. 

Hm, well, I won't get ahead of myself. Right now I'm just going to give myself permission to feel what I'm feeling without feeling guilty about it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Establishing a healthy boundary could change the way you feel going forward.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Establishing a healthy boundary could change the way you feel going forward.


One of the things that I've really struggled with is how to establish a boundary without putting divorce on the table. I've tried, and he's trampled (my admittedly pathetic) previous attempts at boundary-setting. I don't want to punish him for crossing boundaries, because that would just drive us even further into a parent/child dynamic. But I think I wasn't getting that defending my boundaries isn't punitive, it's just healthy self-respect. 

I hope good boundaries do change the way I feel going forward, but at this point I'm feeling like I need a miracle. Well, here's to hoping for a miracle!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Boundaries begin and end with what you are - and are not - ok with.

"I'm not ok with that" is an inarguable phrase.

How can he argue that are "are" ok with something you are not ok with?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Boundaries begin and end with what you are - and are not - ok with.
> 
> "I'm not ok with that" is an inarguable phrase.
> 
> How can he argue that are "are" ok with something you are not ok with?


My husband doesn't argue with me though. He barely talks to me! He just ignores my boundaries. Over and over again. I have taken to saying "I don't like it when..." 

Like, ok, here's an example that may sound trivial but it's important to me. When we walk somewhere, H won't walk next to me, whether or not the kids are with us. He walks by himself, 10 feet in front of me or us. 

I've told him for years now that I don't like that. It makes me feel devalued. He says, "Ok, I'll walk with you." and then continues to walk 10 feet in front of me. If I walk faster, he walks faster. It's ridiculous! And crazy making!

So, I don't know, I just end up feeling confused. Am I making too big a deal out of walking together? Or am I too quick to suppress my own wants/needs to keep the peace? Why does he ignore such a simple request? Is this a boundary issue, or something else entirely??

I'm so confused...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When he continues to do that, what consequences does he face?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When he continues to do that, what consequences does he face?


No consequences. I have been afraid that putting a consequence to his behavior means treating him like a child. So, I feel bad but don't know what to do about that feeling and end up victim triangling with myself. 

I mean, I always tell him "I feel bad when you don't walk with me," then he says "oh yeah, I forgot, I'll stop doing that." Then the whole thing repeats. 

He used the "I forgot" SO OFTEN, and I believed him, and he ended up being evaluated by a neurologist for early-onset dementia. He doesn't have it. I feel like an idiot for believing him all these years.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

He didn't forget.

He just doesn't want to do it.

What would happen if you simply stop walking?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He didn't forget.
> 
> He just doesn't want to do it.
> 
> What would happen if you simply stop walking?


Hm, I suppose eventually he would notice and then come over to see what's going on. 

So, it'd be me either walking with him next to me or not walking at all? He might call me a name and walk away if I kept it up. Generally he's more passive-aggressive, so more likely he'd give me a dirty look and then walk away.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Hm, I suppose eventually he would notice and then come over to see what's going on.
> 
> So, it'd be me either walking with him next to me or not walking at all? He might call me a name and walk away if I kept it up. Generally he's more passive-aggressive, so more likely he'd give me a dirty look and then walk away.


He calls you a name, "I'm not ok with profanity"

I guarantee - you start refusing to walk with him 10 feet in front of you will get a response.

You merely need to stand up for yourself and have him experience the consequences of his actions.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He calls you a name, "I'm not ok with profanity"
> 
> I guarantee - you start refusing to walk with him 10 feet in front of you will get a response.
> 
> You merely need to stand up for yourself and have him experience the consequences of his actions.


Ok. I'm not sure if I'm going to like the response, but I'll deal with that when I get there. 

Setting and enforcing boundaries and staying out of the victim triangle. This will be good.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I keep finding myself jumping into the triangle in persecutor mode. Trying to keep my thoughts to myself. I don't like feeling iriritated, but wow does H know how to push my buttons.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I keep finding myself jumping into the triangle in persecutor mode. Trying to keep my thoughts to myself. I don't like feeling iriritated, but wow does H know how to push my buttons.


Are you exercising?

Great way to work off stress - and helps you keep your mouth shut.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Are you exercising?
> 
> Great way to work off stress - and helps you keep your mouth shut.


I'm not. I'm very active over all, but I don't take any time by myself to really work up a sweat and get a release. I've hesitated because my weight is already too low and I'm worried about losing, and it's so hard to find the time. I could get up earlier and run though. Ugh! I'll start with walking...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Plenty of water.

Who knows... walk fast enough and the problem could solve itself


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Plenty of water.


OMG, you're not my brother are you? Lol.

I drink lots of water... heated and filtered through roasted and finely ground beans. To impart vital nutrients, of course. 

Actually, I joke, but during the separation I started physically taking care of myself for the first time in years. I go to bed every night now at 8. It sounds ridiculous, but the sleep deprivation I went through with my second was unholy. I never went to bed early enough because I couldn't/wouldn't put myself first like that. But now, I'm sticking to my early bedtime for as long as it takes to feel normal again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Also, stay at 50,000 feet and keep observing your urge to criticize/prosecute him.

That could be one of the reasons he's walking 10 feet in front of you.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Also, stay at 50,000 feet and keep observing your urge to criticize/prosecute him.
> 
> That could be one of the reasons he's walking 10 feet in front of you.


Could be, but unlikely. The criticism didn't start until I hit my limit, about 6 months ago. It's one of the reasons I really wanted a separation--I had such a hard time with the anger I feel. I wanted time to process it without him around. The walking in front of me has gone on since the very beginning.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Could be, but unlikely. The criticism didn't start until I hit my limit, about 6 months ago. It's one of the reasons I really wanted a separation--I had such a hard time with the anger I feel. I wanted time to process it without him around. The walking in front of me has gone on since the very beginning.


You do realize that getting angry is giving away your power.

It's almost like anger is really "(d)anger"


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You do realize that getting angry is giving away your power.
> 
> It's almost like anger is really "(d)anger"


Do you mean anger held, or anger expressed?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Do you mean anger held, or anger expressed?


Either.

Getting angry is actually a good thing as it tells you that you are losing your power - and you need to make adjustments.

Channel the anger to something productive.

Blowing up at the other person almost never works.

It's merely a relatively weak form of blameshifting. You give yourself permission to act out/lash out because of what they've done.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Either.
> 
> Getting angry is actually a good thing as it tells you that you are losing your power - and you need to make adjustments.
> 
> ...


Ah, this makes sense. 

I've been surprised at the anger I'm feeling since he got back, and I think it absolutely IS an expression of the powerlessness I feel. Nothing has changed. He is doing nothing differently, nothing to address our problems... it's the same as always. And I feel such hopelessness and overwhelming guilt, because why would he change? He's been like this since we were dating!!! And now I'm unhappy with it, even though he's the same person I married.

Ugh.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Ah, this makes sense.
> 
> I've been surprised at the anger I'm feeling since he got back, and I think it absolutely IS an expression of the powerlessness I feel. Nothing has changed. He is doing nothing differently, nothing to address our problems... it's the same as always. And I feel such hopelessness and overwhelming guilt, because why would he change? He's been like this since we were dating!!! And now I'm unhappy with it, even though he's the same person I married.
> 
> Ugh.


Now we're getting somewhere.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Now we're getting somewhere.


But I don't know what to do. I can't go back to being that woman who didn't care that he didn't offer me anything. Wanting nothing from him was, I think, my way of proving that I didn't need anyone in my life, even though I really did. I met him right after I graduated from college and moved across the country to graduate school. I was really, really scared to go so far by myself. I wasn't even sure I was making the right career decision by entering that program. 

Even after we got married, I think I was still trying to prove to myself that I didn't need him. I was pregnant, working in Manhattan and still getting home from work and cooking dinner every night and doing all of the housework, even though H worked from home. I expected, and got, no help from him. He almost missed our first daughter's birth because he'd left the hospital to get some pizza! And I didn't care, because that just proved to me that I could do THAT without him too!

Man, I'm going to cry. He was supposed to watch our daughter part-time so I could juggle part-time freelance work (he's worked from home the whole marriage, with tons of freedom to set his own hours). Slowly that stopped happening. Then we had number two, and she didn't sleep. For years. I finally had a near-nervous breakdown (I was convinced H wasn't helping me at night or during the daytime because he wanted me to die), and I started to worry he was going to stab the 3 of us in our sleep. I went through a phase of sleeping in the girls' room and locking the bedroom door at this point. But I also begged him to help me get sleep, and he just wouldn't. 

I told him over and over again what his refusal to help was doing to me, and he'd say he was sorry and he would help, soon. But he still didn't. Then, I dunno, I just stopped caring. DD started sleeping better, and I kind of slowly emerged from the haze, and I feel this overwhelming sense of betrayal. I feel like I was drowning, and he stood there watching me. I know he's always been selfish, but I guess deep down I thought he would be there for me, if I really needed it.

So, yeah. I really get now that I taught him to treat me like that. But I still resent that he did. I don't know if I can ever forgive him for it. So I don't know what to do. I've told him all of this, and no response. Total withdrawl. We tried MC in Austria and at our last session I told him I felt like he was just waiting for me to drop this whole business so we could go back to life the way it was, and he say yeah, he kind of was.

He insisted all the way through marriage counseling that I'm amazing, and he loves me so much, and there's nothing more he wants from me. I don't even know any more if this is true. How can he be so happy when I'm so miserable? I can't see how we (lol, we. As though he'll do anything!). I can't see how I can fix this by myself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

N-Lights,

Just as we've discussed about the walking, you can change the dynamics by changing how you behave.

From your description, you've spent the entire time upset by what he is (or isn't) doing, yet enabling it.

The same sort of boundaries we spoke about during your walks can be used during the rest of the day.

Yes, realize how angry you are.

Realize how angry you are at you.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I do. 

I'm so impatient, and I generally struggle with faith of any kind, so I'm having a hard time envisioning a resolution for my marriage. I try to remind myself to work on me, do the right things, and then just trust that the right path will reveal itself. Eek. But control is just an illusion, right?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I do.
> 
> I'm so impatient, and I generally struggle with faith of any kind, so I'm having a hard time envisioning a resolution for my marriage. I try to remind myself to work on me, do the right things, and then just trust that the right path will reveal itself. Eek. But control is just an illusion, right?


Impatience is the mother's milk of anger.

It sounds like when something doesn't go your way, you own the outcome and try to fix it.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Impatience is the mother's milk of anger.
> 
> It sounds like when something doesn't go your way, you own the outcome and try to fix it.


Yeah, I'm a fixer. I like taking action. I'm trying to embrace the idea that life is providing me with a lesson about letting go and not trying to fix/control other people. I'm trying to be grateful that I get to learn this with my H so I don't screw up my kids trying to fix or control them. Framing it that way helps.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Yeah, I'm a fixer. I like taking action. I'm trying to embrace the idea that life is providing me with a lesson about letting go and not trying to fix/control other people. I'm trying to be grateful that I get to learn this with my H so I don't screw up my kids trying to fix or control them. Framing it that way helps.


That's actually good insight.

Fixing almost "inevitably" ends up with convincing.

Convincing... leads to impatience..

You get the idea.

Let him make his own mistakes. As long as there are consequences, he gets the opportunity to learn from them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> That's actually good insight.
> 
> Fixing almost "inevitably" ends up with convincing.
> 
> ...


Here's where I really fall down though. I don't know if it's a gender difference, but I'm afraid that if I go down the road of consequences for crossing boundaries, I'll be mothering him. I already struggle with a parent/child dynamic with him, and I want a husband I can respect. I know it makes sense to have consequences for anyone who crosses my boundaries, but I want to be able to admire him. I'm more old-fashioned in this respect than I want to be but... gah it kills me to type it. I want him to be a man!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You can't make him be one.

BUT... you can stop rewarding him for being a child.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I just got the most wonderful compliment today. A friend I haven't seen in a year (we'd moved away but are back now) told me that I have a new poise and polish. And the girls and I were running late this morning, and I didn't even have time to brush my hair, so it's not that, lol. 

I really do feel more like I know myself better and I'm more in control of my life and my future. Yay me!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I have a confession I need to make aloud, so I can re-read it and remind myself if necessary. Sometimes I don't even want H to make the changes I say I want him to make, because if he does, then I won't be the persecuted victim in the relationship any more. I'd gotten very comfortable there. 

Now that I see that feeling for what it is, I'm leaving that victim chair of my own accord. I'm leaving that triangle whether or not he changes his behavior, because I'm only in that chair if I choose to be.

I struggled for a long time with what it means to forgive someone, especially when they haven't even expressed any remorse for what they've done. I think this is it. Forgiving him means not reacting to his behavior as though it dictates mine or my feelings. Those are mine. I am a pillar, not a corner of a triangle.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Maybe my struggels with anger are pertinent here: I notice that I use anger to cover up other emotions that I don't want to feel. It is easier to feel angry than to be sad and own up to my stuff. It sounds like you are starting to realize that when you said that you realize how angry you get when your H doesn't do what you want. It is easier to get angry than to feel disappointed and realize you are powerless over him.

Glad you are reading Beattie's _The New Codependency_. Based on your original post where you said you would go to great lengths not to hurt his feelings, I was going to recommend her work.

Codependent people seem to get angry when their caretaking is not acknowledged and they are not given the power they want over another. Your caretaking for him, not wanting to hurt his feelings and such by setting boundaries and such, is only fueling your own selfishness. It is not for his benefit that you are not setting boundaries. It is not for his benefit that you don't want to hurt his feelings. You are doing that for yourself, to avoid the pain of realizing you are actually powerless over him and that you actually have power over yourself.

That is my opinion at least.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

That's the part of The New Codependency that didn't speak to me, though. I don't think I'm actually a codependent. I think my mom is, and I learned a lot of that behavior from her, but I think I just do it because that's how I've seen womanhood modelled my whole life. That, and I'm crazy empathetic and have a maternal instinct on overdrive. If someone is in pain, emotional or physical, it sickens me. Like, literally. I pass out if I'm in the presence of a person who's injured. It's ridiculous, but it's something about my genetics. I think. 

So, I do all that caretaking stuff, but mostly it's because I feel H's pain. I'll go to crazy lengths to avoid causing him pain because his pain hurts me so badly. It's a stupid way of trying to protect myself.

I don't know why I'm like this. 

Having kids has been so difficult for our relationship because now I actually have people to take care of, and now I need someone to take care of me once in a while. I really don't expect him to be there for me because I've taken care of him. I expect him to be there for me because that's what a husband does.

I do get that I didn't set boundaries, but I'm having a hard time accepting that it's supposed to be my job to set boundaries. Isn't he supposed to be an adult who doesn't need to be taught to not lie to me or treat me badly? Are my relationship expectations really unrealistic??


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Ugh, I'm having an awful run of days. Feeling so disenchanted and depressed. I finally talked to my mom about everything that's been going on and she said, "well, you have kids, so you'll just have to stick it out." Thanks mom. 

I know my pity party isn't getting me anywhere. I'll try the Melody Beattie technique of acknowledging my emotions and sitting with them. Maybe they will really up and walk out on their own...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm not going to argue over labels.

But, you own the emotional responses of others in spades.

You need to work on that.

(You have no control over them and it makes you physically ill)


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'm not going to argue over labels.
> 
> But, you own the emotional responses of others in spades.
> 
> ...


I do see what you're saying. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have been practising with H. When I start to get upset about potentially causing him pain by enforcing my boundaries, I've been telling myself that I need to take care of myself and let him worry about himself. It's difficult for me. I will expand that to other people too, and set up a boundary about what I let affect me.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just checking in. Boundary setting is going well. H has a habit of walking away from me while we're talking, and I've had really good luck with "I'm not OK with you walking away while I'm talking to you." and then just stopping the conversation. Not asking him to come back into the room, just reminding him of my boundary. Yesterday he did it, I said my line, and he said he was sorry and came back downstairs.

I'm also working on letting myself off the hook for feeling the way I do, and embracing that fact that my feelings for him are probably capable of turning around, but it'll take a while. I was so fixated on the way I've been feeling at the moment and I was convinced it was permanent. When I look back at how I felt about him 3 months ago though, I can see the difference. I feel less anger now, and more patience. Probably more for myself than him really, but it was all about me all along anyway, right?

I still think that eventually, I'll need to hear him say he's sorry. Or maybe not, if I can work through my resentments by myself. There's still a lot for me to do there. Yesterday was somewhat triggering, because we were at a birthday pool party, and H took the girls in. I supervised pool-side. I was hoping he'd show me that he takes water safety seriously now and watch the girls like a hawk, but he didn't. I mean, he stayed in the pool with them, which is an improvement over last time, but it still wasn't what I wanted. 

Well, baby steps. Like I said, things are better, even if they're far from perfect.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Was reading today that for some people, forgiveness takes a very long time. Damn my scorpio nature, but I'm certainly one of them. Add impatience to that, and I can see why I get so frustrated with myself. Slow progress has been indistinguishable from stagnancy to me for a long time.

I'm really working on the patience. 

Also beginning to acknowledge how low-self esteem has affected me and the role that plays in my life and my time on the drama triangle. Whew. For a very long time, I told myself that I'd have better self esteem when I earned it, with the next accomplishment. But that end-point keeps shifting back over the next hill, like a mirage. Maybe I can believe I'm good enough the way I am. Wow that's hard to admit.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Frustrated today! How many times do I have to remind him of my freaking boundaries? Really, what's reasonable? He's still walking away from me when I'm talking. And it's not like I'm complaining about him, I could totally understand if he walked away from me if I was saying inappropriate things... but today, we were talking about the kids (who are both sick), and I look up and he's gone from the kitchen.

GRR!

Do I chase him down and tell him "I'm not ok with this" for the thousandth time? 

I realize I can stop talking to him while I'm doing other things, but we're parents... if I have to choose talking to him or making breakfast, I have to choose breakfast. If I stop talking to him while I'm doing something else, I'm risking stopping most of our small day-to-day interaction. Am I at the point where I have to risk that?

Help!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Frustrated today! How many times do I have to remind him of my freaking boundaries? Really, what's reasonable? He's still walking away from me when I'm talking. And it's not like I'm complaining about him, I could totally understand if he walked away from me if I was saying inappropriate things... but today, we were talking about the kids (who are both sick), and I look up and he's gone from the kitchen.
> 
> GRR!
> 
> ...


Yes.

Don't be afraid.

When my wife and I are on the phone, if she becomes distracted, she now knows the call will be ending.

Do a forum search for my transaction thread.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yes.
> 
> Don't be afraid.
> 
> ...


Found it, thanks. I especially needed the observation "If our instincts were right, we wouldn't be here." 

None of this feels natural to me. It feels like I'm going to hasten the end of my marriage. I won't overthink that feeling any more.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

So, one of the things that made me realize that H and I have serious problems and things need to change was seeing him treat our 2 girls the same way he treats me. 

Both girls are sick, D7 more than D5. I've been up with D7 since 5 am, H woke up at 7. He walks into the living room and--here, I'll do it Z style:

H: How'd you sleep? You slept good?
D7: Well, I didn't fall asleep until 1:20. Actually 1:22. 

(we both know she was asleep a little after 9, but it took her a while to fall asleep because of the coughing and runny nose, and she woke up thirsty and burning up in the middle of the night, which H didn't know).

H: Ahh... (walks out of room).

What I don't like about this is that he's showing her that he already thinks he knows how her night went and doesn't care what she thinks about it. Also, I'm trying to raise kids who are engaged listeners, and a non-response followed by walking out of the room doesn't model that.

I'm getting the idea of enforcing my own boundaries, but how do I proceed here? Is this a question for a family therapist? Assuming that H will not change his behavior regardless of what I say or who we meet with (historically that's the best bet), what's my role here? 

(I handled it by responding to what D7 said like an engaged person would. Then I went into the other room and told H that I didn't like the way he responded to her, and he said "I know she didn't fall asleep at 1." So I explained about showing her he cared about her night and giving her his full attention, and he sighed a big sigh and didn't respond, so I left the room.)

Could I have done this better? Staying at 50,000 when the kids are concerned might be impossible for me, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Obviously if they're being treated inappropriately, I need to intervene.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You know, after reading most of your posts it seems to me that your hb has made very clear to you who and what he is, you just aren't willing to accept it. Your can either change your expectations or live with it, but when you constantly expect what you know someone can't give you set yourself up for disappointment, and that's on you. I subscribe to the theory that people never really change; true some behaviors can change but the core of who someone is can't change. You need to decide whether the benefit you and your girls get from having him there outweighs the costs. It doesn't look like it does, but that's your decision. I left my ex for a number of reasons, but a big one was that my boys were starting to talk to me like he did, and that was unacceptable. I accepted that ex was who he was, but the boys could still be raised in a healthy environment. This whole idea that one must stay in an unhealthy environment because the kids need both patents in the house is bs, and is often used as an excuse by people that just don't want to make tough decisions. The kids suffer far more; I am an example of that after what I saw in my house growing up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> So, one of the things that made me realize that H and I have serious problems and things need to change was seeing him treat our 2 girls the same way he treats me.
> 
> Both girls are sick, D7 more than D5. I've been up with D7 since 5 am, H woke up at 7. He walks into the living room and--here, I'll do it Z style:
> 
> ...


You're talking way too much.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> You know, after reading most of your posts it seems to me that your hb has made very clear to you who and what he is, you just aren't willing to accept it. Your can either change your expectations or live with it, but when you constantly expect what you know someone can't give you set yourself up for disappointment, and that's on you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right. As time passes, I'm feeling more and more that this won't be salvageable. But I'm not certain yet, and furthermore, I still don't trust him to supervise the kids when I'm not around. I also don't want to alienate my girls from their father, so staying together, even as roommates, seems like the best solution until they're old enough that the can basically take care of themselves. Then he can have partial custody.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You're talking way too much.


You're killing me!

Just ignore it then?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I think you're right. As time passes, I'm feeling more and more that this won't be salvageable. But I'm not certain yet, and furthermore, I still don't trust him to supervise the kids when I'm not around. I also don't want to alienate my girls from their father, so staying together, even as roommates, seems like the best solution until they're old enough that the can basically take care of themselves. Then he can have partial custody.


But if you were just roommates that got along well otherwise that might work. Your girls will figure out quickly who and what he is, if they haven't already. And why does ending a marriage that's not working equate to alienating them from their father? My kids see their dad all the time, and before I left him I also worried about how he would take care of them but he actually became a better father once I wasn't there to dump everything on. It's not your job to make sure your girls have a relationship with their father; it's your job to not get in the way of said relationship. The relationship itself is up to him. My boys are flourishing now. How old are your girls? My boys are 12 and 9, but were 2 and 5 when we divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> You're killing me!
> 
> Just ignore it then?


Tell him you're not ok with it.

Let him decide what to do about it.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> And why does ending a marriage that's not working equate to alienating them from their father? My kids see their dad all the time, and before I left him I also worried about how he would take care of them but he actually became a better father once I wasn't there to dump everything on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't trust him to keep them alive. I won't give him the chance to prove me wrong. He's been dangerously negligent too many times, so I will not leave him alone with them. They're 5 and 7 now, so I could see being ok leaving them with him in a few more years. I just really want to try one last time. I've always TOLD him my boundaries but never backed them up with actions, and I really want to give this a chance to work. Even if the odds are 1 in 20, it's worth the shot.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Tell him you're not ok with it.
> 
> Let him decide what to do about it.


This is so hard for me. I'm a thinker by talking through. 

Ok, I'll just come here and write it out instead of saying it to H.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> This is so hard for me. I'm a thinker by talking through.
> 
> Ok, I'll just come here and write it out instead of saying it to H.


Good.

It's so so easy to cross the line from boundaries to controlling behavior.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I don't trust him to keep them alive. I won't give him the chance to prove me wrong. He's been dangerously negligent too many times, so I will not leave him alone with them. They're 5 and 7 now, so I could see being ok leaving them with him in a few more years. I just really want to try one last time. I've always TOLD him my boundaries but never backed them up with actions, and I really want to give this a chance to work. Even if the odds are 1 in 20, it's worth the shot.


Perfectly logical.

One of the great resources of this forum is how to get the information you must have to be confident in your decisions.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Perfectly logical.
> 
> One of the great resources of this forum is how to get the information you must have to be confident in your decisions.


Yes!

I know others have said it, but I've gotten far more from this board than I did from MC. 

Also, the education in boundaries has already been so helpful outside of my marriage. My parents don't know how to set or enforce them either (surprise surprise, right?) so I've introduced the term to the whole family. This weekend we were at my brother's place, and my 5 year old (who really is one of a kind) wanted to change into her normal around-the-house garb, which these days is a nightgown (long t-shirt) and no underwear. My brother has no kids and is extraordinarily uncomfortable with this. DD has a will of iron, so this was no easy situation. But I explained that at her uncle's house, we had to respect what he was comfortable with or we couldn't stay. First she said "Fine," put on her shoes, and sat in the car. Then she decided she wanted to stay, so she changed. (Then she changed her mind, cried, rinse later repeat all weekend). But I stuck to the script--"Your uncle is not comfortable with naked butts on his couch. You can put on pants or choose to go home." A few months ago, I might have tried to convince him that she's just little, and naked butts are no big deal. But, controlling!!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I don't trust him to keep them alive. I won't give him the chance to prove me wrong. He's been dangerously negligent too many times, so I will not leave him alone with them. They're 5 and 7 now, so I could see being ok leaving them with him in a few more years. I just really want to try one last time. I've always TOLD him my boundaries but never backed them up with actions, and I really want to give this a chance to work. Even if the odds are 1 in 20, it's worth the shot.



Fair enough, that is a little young. Maybe for your own piece of mind you should just accept who he is and plan your own life accordingly. Don't expect him to be involved because that's not who he is, and certainly don't stress yourself by worrying about what he is and isn't doing. Take care of your kids and detach from him, then you can make decisions with a clear head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Ugh, so frustrated again today, just need to vent. Feeling today like there has been no change in our relationship, and I'm pissed off that he ended the separation early... I really wanted/needed that time to work things out on my end. Why couldn't he respect that?

I mean, I know why... because there was no solid boundary on my part. I didn't tell him that if he came home before I was ready, I would file for divorce (and mean it). But why does he have to push it that far? Why does it still feel like we're working against each other? He told me he didn't even understand why I wanted the separation or how that was supposed to be helping us. GR!! I mean, really??? We talked about it together, we talked about it with the therapist... if he doesn't even understand what's going on with us, then we're never going to fix this.

Is he just jerking me around? He's due for another round of neurological testing in 6 months, I'm really hoping for some kind of answers this time.

Wah. Just so frustrated.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Still focused on him.

What are you doing for you?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Reading a lot. Gardening, cleaning, and applied for a new job. Had a fantastic interview but haven't heard back yet (they promised a call either way though, so hopefully it's not bad news.)

The perfect storm for me is that I write, too. I have a book that I'm pitching to agents, and the constant rejection is so hard to take right now. I'm trying to develop my sense of self-esteem on my own, love myself regardless of how much the outside world validates my sense of self, etc, but it's an uphill battle when people keep telling me "thanks but no thanks."

One agent did take the time to compliment my books "poise and polish." Maybe I should print that out so I don't forget. And the letter of rec my old boss wrote for me was so lovely, that made me feel really good about myself. But see, I just reached for 2 examples of other people validating me. Is that bad? I'm very much a "it's not what you think you are, it's what you DO that matters" kind of person, but maybe I take that too far??

Confusing. On the up side, my house is really clean and the garden is nearly fully planted. So at least I'm doing something right.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Keep observing.

Interesting that I ask about you and you start reporting to me on how other people are reacting

Don't depend on that.

Do for you.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Keep observing.
> 
> Interesting that I ask about you and you start reporting to me on how other people are reacting
> 
> ...


So hard! 

I really seek out that confirmation from other people. I didn't grow up in a household that lavished me with praise, but I was a smart kid who was always winning awards and competitions, perfect SAT scores, 4.0 GPA, on and on, so I got it anyway. Now I'm a stay-at-home mom with NO external validation and I'm spectacularly failing at something for the first time in my life. And being rejected by my husband AND professionally. 

In my dream world, I'd have the kind of husband who built me up during this tough time. My husband read my book and then a few days later, posted on facebook about the book he had read that was being turned into a movie (not mine obviously) and called it the best book he'd ever read. I was heartbroken.

So yeah, I know it's up to me to get to a place where I believe in myself and my value without anyone else telling me so. Even when I was a high-achieving kid, I had self-esteem trouble. I was anorexic for a long time (shocking, right? Could I fit the profile any more perfectly?). I've gotten over the disordered eating on my own, but I guess not so much over the disordered thinking? Perhaps this is something I should bring up in therapy?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> So hard!
> 
> I really seek out that confirmation from other people. I didn't grow up in a household that lavished me with praise, but I was a smart kid who was always winning awards and competitions, perfect SAT scores, 4.0 GPA, on and on, so I got it anyway. Now I'm a stay-at-home mom with NO external validation and I'm spectacularly failing at something for the first time in my life. And being rejected by my husband AND professionally.
> 
> ...


Item #1 for your next session.

Print your post and take it in.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

More observing. I've noticed that when I state a boundary, H reacts with victimhood. I finally realized that just because he's jumped into the victim chair, it doesn't mean I was being a persecutor. I think I allowed his reaction to unduly influence how I saw my own behavior. I thought if he was acting the victim, I must have caused it by being awful to him. I thought boundaries = mean. 

Wow, what a revelation! I am not responsible for his reaction to my healthy boundaries!!

I still feel really bad when he acts injured, of course. I would love to say something like, "I'm sorry you feel hurt, but this is what I need for a healthy relationship," but he's still walking out of the room and muttering to himself instead of talking to me, so I guess I just wait.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> More observing. I've noticed that when I state a boundary, H reacts with victimhood. I finally realized that just because he's jumped into the victim chair, it doesn't mean I was being a persecutor. I think I allowed his reaction to unduly influence how I saw my own behavior. I thought if he was acting the victim, I must have caused it by being awful to him. I thought boundaries = mean.
> 
> Wow, what a revelation! I am not responsible for his reaction to my healthy boundaries!!
> 
> I still feel really bad when he acts injured, of course. I would love to say something like, "I'm sorry you feel hurt, but this is what I need for a healthy relationship," but he's still walking out of the room and muttering to himself instead of talking to me, so I guess I just wait.


Unless there are other consequences to his activity.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Unless there are other consequences to his activity.


What's a good consequence in this situation though? I wasn't even doing something else this time, I'd given him my full attention.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> What's a good consequence in this situation though? I wasn't even doing something else this time, I'd given him my full attention.


If you have something else to do, you leave.

If he misses key information by walking out of the room, do not bother to chase him down to tell him.

Talk less, do more.

When he asks why he missed this or that, you say, "I was telling you, but you left the room"

The real key to the 180 is you engaging in such an interesting life that he wants to take part. Bring your "A" game every day.

We all let down on this from time to time.

Discipline yourself not to.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Am I the only one on here who's doing an in-house separation? Does anyone remember someone who did one with a thread I can read? I'm feeling lonely.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Northern,
I have been reading your posts. I'm the wife, going to file for divorce in October. Still living together.

I'm a bit similar to you. above average intelligence, strong, independent, but waaay too co-dependent, married myself a great "project" and failed to fix him. I was doing this in all aspects of my life, btw.

Conrad is one my favs. He inspires me. To stick to the truth. 

It was quite hard for me to let my husband just live his own life, make his own mistakes, and not care about it.

But the more I let him go... the more he started to change and took some steps towards truth.

IC and Affirmations helped me make a breakthrough. Then I read a few key books that helped me see that MY OPINION was just that. An opinion. Not right or wrong. That was one of my hurdles. Letting go of that. 

The notion that we are billions of people on this planet. None of us are the same, we are all unique. Not one of us has the same experiences, thoughts, and we all see things in a slightly different way. 

We are taught as children. Right, wrong, ugly, beautiful, good, bad. Go to another country, and the opinions on these things will be different. Generations -- differences again. 

Those opinions had become my measurement of MYSELF. I didn`t even know who I was! Just what society said I should be, what society said my husband should be, how much money I should make, what car I drive,house I live in. I was LOST.

Accepting myself, as I am today, with all my faults, was a key. 
I am who I am. I cannot change the past. It is part of me, and I accept it. And if I accept ME, because I`m unique and no one else is exactly like me, then why don't I accept others? As they are living THEIR lives, in their own way? It was stunning for me. 

So what am I doing here, then? What's my purpose? The book... The Four Agreements, Don Miguel Ruiz
This helped me focus on What.To.Do.Next.

-Be Impeccable with my word (especially with myself)
-Don't Make Assumptions (no judgements!)
-Don't Take Anything Personally (we are all unique!)
-Always Do your best (my purpose in life!)

That's it. That's all I had to do. I had huge anxiety, anger, not sure what to do next. This helped ease it. Here's the new rules for my life... now go do it.

Sorry for such a long post, (Conrad, forgive me for being so long winded LOL) but I just love talking about this is general. 
Because I believe in it.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

What kind of male role models does your husband have in his life?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you for your post, I don't mind long! Everything you wrote rings true for me.



deejov said:


> It was quite hard for me to let my husband just live his own life, make his own mistakes, and not care about it.
> 
> But the more I let him go... the more he started to change and took some steps towards truth.



I am shooting for this. I've been holding back because at the bottom of it all, I have two major fears. 1) that even if we're both the best ourselves we can be, we're fundamentally incompatible, and 2) that I won't be able to forgive him for the past.

But, I'm working on just acknowledging these things. Either might be true, but it doesn't mean limbo and unhappiness is the right place to stay.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

MSP said:


> What kind of male role models does your husband have in his life?


I don't think he has any. His father was an alcoholic and totally emotionally unavailable, one grandfather died before he was born and the other lived overseas, one close family friend who was the closest thing to an uncle and a serial cheater, and one blood uncle who he rarely interacted with. 

We discussed this way back when our first was born, and at that time we were living near my extended family. I have one uncle with small children that we were really closet to, and he did become a role model for my H. I put a lot of effort into pointing out the way he and his wife handled parenting issues and discussing them. I really wanted us to develop a parenting style together, intentionally, taking what we liked from books or people and talking about it and applying it. This uncle and my H always got along really well, too. Huh, things really started to tank with us after we moved away (though we were in trouble before that too). I never considered how moving away from there meant moving away from H's best role model.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Exciting news though is that I got the job I interviewed for a few weeks ago! I've been primarily a SAHM for nearly 8 years, but I've always juggled freelance writing and tutoring to try to keep up a portfolio, make a little money, and leave a window open to rekindle my career when the littler one started kindergarten. So, getting a full-time job is huge. I've been so afraid that no one would want to hire me after so much time at home, and that all that effort I put into trying to keep my skills relevant was a waste of time.

Plus, I'll be out of the house. H works from home, and we've spent far, far too much time together for the past 8 years. This will be very good for us!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Forgiveness. Starts with yourself. Ties into not judging. If you are not perfect, and you are doing your best, forgiveness is easy.

Does that apply to your husband? Based on his childhood, relationship skills... was he doing his best? Then why doesn't he deserve forgiveness?

Is it because that leads to acknowledging that he isn't compatible?

Compatible is a relative word. People are quite capable of learning, growing. Growth is learning from your mistakes. 


Can I ask... what remains the top 3 things that keep you emotionally distant from your husband?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> Can I ask... what remains the top 3 things that keep you emotionally distant from your husband?


Whew. This one's difficult. Not hard to come up with difficult, but stuff I don't want to think about difficult.

1. The safety stuff with the kids. We talked about it (I talked to him about it). I didn't think he took it seriously enough. And it just got worse. When I found our 3 year old in that pool, I was so scared. He'd just walked away from her. To play basketball. I hate him for that.

2. Abandoning me when I needed sleep. This one's hard because it wasn't just a one time mistake, it was him choosing day after day and night after night to not help. And more than that, any actions he did take made it worse, like when he'd wake me up in the morning (8 am) and say that I "couldn't sleep all day." 

3. Day in and day out neglect. No affection, no effort for me. Before #1 and #2 happened, he was already love busting me (lies and rebuffing my affection) and not meeting my needs. So before these big things happened, we were already on weak ground.

So, it kind of all ties in together. Here we were on weak (but fixable with effort) ground, and then there were multiple earthquakes. 

Ultimately, with regards to #1 and #2, I just don't know... I don't believe he did his best. #3, yes, that I can understand. Bad role modeling for him growing up, me not following my words up with actions... I can clearly see what we both did wrong. But putting my child's life in danger, and failing me day after day after day... I hate him for that. 

I don't know what to do.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

northernlights said:


> Whew. This one's difficult. Not hard to come up with difficult, but stuff I don't want to think about difficult.
> 
> 1. The safety stuff with the kids. We talked about it (I talked to him about it). I didn't think he took it seriously enough. And it just got worse. When I found our 3 year old in that pool, I was so scared. He'd just walked away from her. To play basketball. I hate him for that.
> 
> ...


I feel for you. IC helped me with this. 
Keep in mind.. this is NOT what you want to hear! But I will try to be gentle.

Except for #1 (I'd have to think about that one, I'm a protective momma bear myself) These are all on you.

Boundaries, and Consequences.
Difficult part of self awareness. 

1) Learn about yourself. What are your boundaries? Know them. It's personal. To me, a boundary became anything that made me feel LESS about myself. (less important, neglected, unwanted, unappreciated).

A boundary is .... a dealbreaker to my self esteem. I made the decision that I would not allow someone else to own my self esteem, ever again. It's mine. No one tells me, with their actions, that I am less than what I believe I am. (of course I choose to believe I'm worthy, or not)

2) Figure out consequences for someone breaking a boundary.
A boundary is just fluffy nothingness without consequences.
Think of "momma bear for your soul". 

*** This is where being a smarty \ fixer comes in handy!!**
Most times, you can think of a logical answer to the problem.

Forgiveness is easier when you realise that you could have changed the outcome. You don't control him... but you do control how you react to him, starting now. You did your best. See how it all circles back?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> I feel for you. IC helped me with this.
> Keep in mind.. this is NOT what you want to hear! But I will try to be gentle.
> 
> Except for #1 (I'd have to think about that one, I'm a protective momma bear myself) These are all on you.
> ...


Lights. Deejov is gently showing you your part. She is right
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> Except for #1 (I'd have to think about that one, I'm a protective momma bear myself) These are all on you.


I agree, with regards to #2 and #3, and in part with #1 (there had been indications that he wasn't careful enough with the kids, but #1 was beyond the pale). I'm having trouble liking or loving the person who did these things, though. I know that I let it happen. But, with #2 for example, what he did felt like abuse and betrayal. I'm not sure it wasn't abuse, because I was suffering so badly and he intentionally made it worse. I certainly see how I could have set a boundary in retrospect, but at the time, I was incapable of it. That's where the betrayal part comes in. He vowed to take care of me in sickness (and in health!), and he, day after day, ignored that vow. That's where the emotional block is coming from. I just don't respect a person who can treat another person like that. I can understand #3 without losing respect for him as a person, but #2... I think it was too far. It's hard to understand if you don't have a kid like our second, and I know every parent has suffered sleep deprivation, but this was something else. This was FOUR YEARS of me getting up 5 to 10 times per night.

And partly, that still might be affecting my ability to think straight, which is one of the reasons I'm even giving this time. But yeah, saying that I could have prevented #2 with boundaries feels like you're telling me he wouldn't have beaten me if I'd set up a boundary. It's true, but it doesn't change what he chose to do and whether that's forgiveable.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

LIghts,
I'm not saying you could have prevented it, most likely you could not have. Because at the time, you didn't know yourself, or how to enforce a boundary.

What I mean by saying this is on you... is you are holding a grudge against him for it, and cannot forgive him for it. 

If you had known better how to handle it, it would not have happened that way, at least not for so long. He only did what you let him do, and what he knew how. You only did what you knew how. So don't BOTH of you deserve forgiveness?

I do understand the like \ don't like \ lack of respect. You start to think.... wow.. you are just a dog of a person!

But sometimes, they are just a person without skills. Or different skills. They cope in whatever way works for them. 

If deep down, your spouse IS a decent person, then separate the two. Husband is the job. (he sucks at that). Person is the one inside, who has a bad childhood, never learned skills, etc.

Not forgiving someone for that is like not forgiving a 3 yr old for crashing your car into a tree, when they don't know how to drive it. 

I learned to see it as instead of being mad that he didn't know how to do the right thing, I should have stood up for myself and told him the right thing to do. Because it was MY life. I'm responsible for that. Not him. Victim chair. It is very very comfy.

As a side note... my husband did a lot of shetty things. It took me about 2 months of working thru the thoughts above to be able to forgive him for it. 

It wasn't because he deserved it. Nope. 
It was because I deserved to be free of the weight of it.
And I choose him! I choose to marry a dog. I'll fix him, teach him. Didn't work out so well. I had NO IDEA how little really knew. Stress, drama. He fell apart. I was furious. And felt pretty sorry for myself. Poor victim. Look what he did to me. 

I was the fool, letting my today be spoiled by thoughts of what a dog he was in the past.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Let

It

Go


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

deejov said:


> LIghts,
> I'm not saying you could have prevented it, most likely you could not have. Because at the time, you didn't know yourself, or how to enforce a boundary.
> 
> What I mean by saying this is on you... is you are holding a grudge against him for it, and cannot forgive him for it.
> ...


People like you give me hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> If deep down, your spouse IS a decent person, then separate the two.


This is it. I just don't know. 

There is something very fundamentally not right about my husband. I'm not sure if it's early onset dementia, or if he's extremely self-absorbed, or if he's delusional or a pathological liar, or what. We only had 4 meetings with our MC, and at our last one I told her that I really needed to understand WHY everything that had happened had happened if I was going to move forward. She told me she didn't know. 

Cognitive testing is due to be repeated in about 6 months. That will clarify whether he's declining or whether the assorted processing disorders are the extent of the neurological problems.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I was thinking more about the above. Succinctly put, my trust in him is broken. And being a fixer with an overly rational bend, I have bristled at the idea of working to rebuild trust without understanding what actually happened on his end and why, because that sounds like setting myself up for a repeat. 

Is that part of the leap of faith I have to take? Or am I still being impatient by asking "how will this fix the relationship" about everything when I'm still in the "fix me" phase??


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I was thinking more about the above. Succinctly put, my trust in him is broken. And being a fixer with an overly rational bend, I have bristled at the idea of working to rebuild trust without understanding what actually happened on his end and why, because that sounds like setting myself up for a repeat.
> 
> Is that part of the leap of faith I have to take? Or am I still being impatient by asking "how will this fix the relationship" about everything when I'm still in the "fix me" phase??


In a word, yes.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> In a word, yes.


Ok, well, don't hesitate to remind me of this. Among my flaws are a horrid short-term memory. Or is that a blessing? It was, for the first half of my marriage at least! Why go through all that effort to forgive when you can much more easily forget?! 

I think this is all part of my issue with "forgiveness." I've forgotten so much, and it's all just repeated and repeated, and I feel like so much just ends up rug-swept, with my H expecting that I'll totally forget stuff because that's what I do. But if by some miracle somthing gets into my long-term memory, I'm a horrid grudge holder... always have been.

Oh well, I'll learn one day. Reading the 7 habits of highly successful people right now and loving it.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Lights,
When my husband and I went to MC, he just plain lied and denied saying or doing things. I had similar thoughts --- there is something wrong with him! Now, he just says he doesn`t `recall` saying or doing those things.

It is called denial. A deep rooted fear of looking inside. It's not their fault, after all. Some people never go deep. Their entire lives. They just move on to someone else with a cleaner history. It's what I did for many years. 

It is your life, though. He's not responsible for that. You are. So if he made mistakes, and was not the husband you wanted, then it's up to you to do a few things:
-Decide what a husband is, for you
-Decide what your boundaries are
-Put yourself first and make a plan for the future (know what your dealbreakers are, and how to enforce them. This may mean walking away if necessary)


If you didn't know how to enforce boundaries, how was he supposed to magically know how to manage your life and make you happy? 

One thing about these types of personalities --- they have the concept of "take care of myself" down pat. Fixers put themselves last. Sometimes I think they are MORE self aware than we give them credit for.

The one thing they never forget to do is the one thing we should do, and don't. Put their happiness first.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

It's not just the lies and denials, though. It's also when he does things like tell me he considers himself light-haired, even though he's had black hair his whole life. It's one thing to realize you're caught in a lie and deny it, but it's a whole other ballpark to delude yourself so badly that you don't even know your own haircolor. 

For me, the answer to this question is really important in determining how I move forward. If he won't ever be capable of joining me in reality-land, I will give up on having the kind of marriage I had hoped for, and make the best of what we have. But if he is capable, then I eventually will expect him to be a caring partner to me.

Right now it doesn't matter, because the next few steps are the same no matter what--boundaries, self-respect, and personal growth. But I really, really do like to have an idea of the long-term prospects. It makes me happy.

In retrospect, I've already suffered a tremendous amount of grief over not having the marriage I thought I did, and I can feel myself coming out on the other side of that. Like, I did my grieving, and I'm getting ready to accept what I do have and make the best. Slowly.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Have you ever read The Voice of Knowledge or the Four Agreements? Both by Don Miguel Ruiz

Both talk about Point of View. Opinions. 

It can be very interesting to realise that how one sees someone... is not how they see themselves. And vice versa.

Reality Land. An interesting concept!!

If we are all unique, and no one sees things through our eyes, and hears our thoughts, then how you see reality...is just your own story. You see people in your movie, as you want to see them. 

Because you are not in their heads... have not experienced everything they did.... you only see your opinion of that person. The way they are in your movie. 

Your life is reality for you. Reality for someone else is their life, their movie, they way they see it. 

It makes your head spin to think about this. Especially when you try to not judge it. Who says your reality is better? It is just yours. It's right for you. Because it's all you know.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Well, yes, but there is an objective reality. Like hair color. Sure what I see as dark brown might be someone else's black, but it's not blonde. There comes a point where to function in the world as a couple, I need to be able to say "did you deposit that check in the bank?" and he needs to understand what that questions means, objectively, and respond in a way that reflects what really happened.

We are not there. It's frustrating. And expensive.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Because a fixer \ co-dependent doesn't give anyone a chance to suffer the consequences of their actions. They step in and fix it before it's an issue, and then we get angry when they didn't do it in the first place. They should KNOW this stuff is important, right?
They do. But they don't have to worry about it. Because the fixer will worry enough for both. 

If something is important to you, own it. Like finances. If you want things to be a certain way, then own that task. Give up trying to make him do it in your way so you feel comfortable.

Once again, it's not his job in life to make your life run just the way you want it to. Stop giving him the power to do so. 

Sorry to be harsh here, I was furious when I heard this over and over. But it's the truth. 

I used an analogy to measure this. If it was something I could do myself (dishes, chores, banking, laundry) then I had to be fair and own it if I was going to demand it be done a certain way.

If was something I couldn't do for myself (emotional needs) then that was a boundary if it hurt my sense of self esteem. 

I still get pissed about the dishes. But I no longer feel I have the right to hold it as a boundary. There are 20 ways to do something. Who says my way is right? If I do... then I own it. It sucks.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I agree with you. I control the finances, because it's important to me that our retirement account is invested, for example. It's important to H too, but he didn't understand that they weren't. So, it's not necessarily a matter of "I want it done my way, therefore I'll do it," but a matter of H thinking something has been taken care of the way he wants it, when in reality it's not. 

Or, the laundry for example. It's not like I care how he does it, whether he mixes whites with colors (I always do, I suck at laundry). I have no preferences beyond that he doesn't fold up dirty clothes and put them back in the closets or straight onto the kids. Which he does, constantly. 

When I say "I think he has a problem," this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I'm actually a really laid-back person... "good enough" is my motto. But when he's putting dirty underwear on the girls, or pulling stuff out of the dirty hamper and sticking it back in my drawer, or feeding the kids moldy food _intentionally _(yes, happened too) I worry that I'm dealing with someone with serious issues.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Opinions. All of it.
Is it a fact that you can prove.... that the clothes were too dirty to be worn again? It really is one opinion versus the other. I'm sure both of you could find agreeable counterparts to back it up. But it makes it an opinion. Because it's your preference, belief. The way you were raised, taught. How was laundry done in his house as a child? 
-Give clear instructions. Everything must be washed. If he doesn't agree to do it, then you own that task. 

Why am I harping on this? Because the concept goes VERY deep. Free will. When you see that everyone has it, you will gain it back for yourself. 

If you don't like something, change it. 
But first you have to believe that you do have the power to make your life whatever you want. 

You have the power to set your own beliefs, boundaries, and consequences. But so does everyone else. 

This is the source of most human conflict, all over the planet. 

If the belief is important to you, then yes you should defend it. But one should not judge others when they do not agree with your belief. Acceptance of differing opinions. 

It starts with small things like how to run the house. It ends with blaming others for not making you happy, when it is not clear that everything you do is your choice. Free will. 

Moldy food would be a boundary. So you have to teach food safety habits. Again, should be common sense, but I know men who would do this as well.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

And once one gets past all the stuff about opinions... yes you do have the free will to decide what kind of life you want, and what kind of people you want in your life. 

The point of learning in life is to avoid the same mistakes. Settling is something people usually only do once. There is no judgement in deciding you want to do better, either.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I know. I just want it all right now, and I get tantrum-y whenever I start to accept that that's not going to happen.

I want to raise my kids in a 2-parent home. I want a husband who treats me well. 

Ultimately, I think that's why I've failed to set boundaries. H knows that he can get away with treating me however he wants while we have kids in the house. I own that I'm choosing this, but I still feel a huge loss. I really don't think I realized how much I was grieving that loss over the last few months, but I was.

Not giving up though! Divorce the old marriage and start a new one, right? I'm nothing if not stubborn!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

right on!!

In most cases, things do change when one starts enforcing boundaries. At least your personal happiness and peace, for one. 

LOL yes it also means you can have it all, if you decide to. 

I have little patience. Not my thing. But I'm trying.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm finding that being patient with myself is step one. I've gotten so frustrated with myself in the past for feeling disappointed with my marriage told myself that I needed to change my thoughts immediately. But, after reading the Melodie Beattie book, I decided (as silly as it felt at the time), to just let myself sit with my feelings. Feel them. I didn't rush out the "bad" feelings. I didn't dwell on them either, I just acknowledged them, acknowledged that they had something to teach me, and waited. What a relief it was, to get permission to feel these negative feelings. I spent so much time and energy stuffing them down!!

The new NL is patient with herself and forgiving herself. I made a bunch of mistakes, but I'm not supposed to be perfect, so it's ok. And I spent all this time trying to get validation from people on here, like you deejov, when what I really wanted was validation from myself. 

Thanks for talking with me and pushing me deejov, you're an awesome lady! And you too Conrad! I'm sorry we had to "meet" under these circumstances.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad calls that being still. He has to 2x4 me once in awhile to do it. But that's the place where you learn about yourself the most. And where peace is. 

Forgiving myself was the greatest thing I've done in my life. I spent years trying to "fix" being damaged, when all I had to do was just accept it. It's there. cannot be changed. It's part of who I am, but it's no longer ruling my behavior today. I do that part 

I got hit over the head quite a bit when I first came here... fix yourself, you can't change him. I'm pretty smart. We shall see about that. I can figure this out. I did. But it wasn't the answer I thought it was. It was me that had to change. For me, not for him. I can't even explain how much happier I am now, in life. 

I laugh at the idea of trying to change my husband. Yeah. He's the first person I've ever met that is MORE stubborn than me. He will do the opposite, just to spite me. 

And he's free to do so. The lesson he has taught me is that he has never, not once, forgotten to look after his own happiness. 
I used to think this was very selfish. Now, I see the value in it. It's not balanced...but I can see where the concept should be applied in my own way to my life. 

When a person decides to use their free will and take charge of their own life, two things will happen to the people around them: they will either embrace you for it and follow, or they will give in to their fears and run from you. Either way, I'm the winner.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just checking in. Having a great week, it's finally gotten hot here and we're enjoying summer. Still reading a lot, taking a lot of time to meditate and dig deep.

H is unchanged. He was really confused yesterday about where the stairs and elevator are in his parents' apartment building, and it made me worried again. We lived there for a year, only moved out 3 months ago... he really shouldn't have been so confused. 

I'm still terrified (TERRIFIED) that he has the same neurological degenerative disorder as his father. I'm terrified it's genetic, and that he's passed it along to the kids, too. I know there's nothing at this point to do but wait until the testing is repeated in 6 months, but when incidences like these happen, I can feel the panic. It's awful.

I don't want that life. For me, or him, or the kids. 

It'll pass. My father in law's neurologist told us it's really unlikely that it's a genetic condition. I wish we could just get that second round of testing already and that I could talk with an American (English-speaking) doctor.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Hope all goes well, and the testing is good news.

It's weird. My H complains about memory problems too. 
But he tends to PA behavior, and his brain is too overloaded with a million other things..... keeping track of what he's mad about, thinking about what he wishes he had and can't afford, what he doesn't like about co-workers... basically the negative wheel of thinking is hard wired ON on his head most of the time.

I found huge improvements in my thought processes when I got better at training my thoughts to be more positive.

Has he ever tried Affirmations? Done correctly, it can be like brain washing yourself to be more calm, and block out negative stuff.
Curious if that would help him.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I've had the hardest time distinguishing between H pretending to have forgotten something but really being passive-aggressive, and him really just having forgotten it. 

He's not really interested in getting help. When we were living in his home country, the neuropsychologist recommended he get some therapy to deal with this dyslexia and other processing disorders, but he didn't bother. I think it stems from not wanting to acknowledge that he's imperfect. He'd much rather forget the whole testing ever happened than actually put the effort into improving himself. Things like that make me feel like the relationship is doomed. If he won't work on himself for his own sake, how could I ever hope he'll work on the marriage for his, my, and the kids' sakes?

Blech. Then today when I was putting away laundry, I found one of his dirty, dog-hair encrusted socks in my underwear drawer. Sigh... Maybe it was an accident, or maybe one of the kids was trying to be helpful. Or maybe it's dementia. Or maybe he's just crazy. I just wish I knew.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

LOL I don't try to figure it out too much either.

The PA thing does consume my H's brain some days. I truly do think he forgets, just simply because his brain isn't focused. Nah, he hasn't done anything about it either. 

He works rotating 12 hr shifts, days and nights. When he is on a 4 day work stretch, his "brain" falls apart. He will forget to do stuff he does every single day. It's like his brain cannot handle anything other than work. I mean basic stuff slips his mind. It baffles me, and yet it amuses me. Most of the time I "help".

The other day I mentioned why I found it amusing. 
He brags about being so organized he is borderline OCD. And he is very good at that stuff. He can organize and pack for a camping trip like no other. The house is always organized. 

But when it comes to himself, on working days...he can't find his keys, his phone, forgets to feed the dogs, leaves yard gates open, can't answer basic questions, gets confused on answering his phone, it's like walking behind a tornado. 

Some days are better than others. I've learned to poke a bit when it's bad... on his day off, I'll ask him what he is so anxious about. It will trickle out. He thinks he is keeping things all bottled up, when in reality his brain is consumed by working it over. He's been told by a counsellor to practice talking it out instead. 

That's what PA does to my H. Consumes his brain. He's told me he's so busy being pissy at his boss, and thinking about what he wants to say to him, that when he should be getting ready for work, he's thinking about that instead. Sigh. 

Not saying that is what is going on with your husband. 
"here's your brain on PA" LOL


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm sometimes like your husband, but I blame sleep-deprivation and possible ADD. I'll do things like start to cook something and then TOTALLY forget it. Once I left rice pudding on the stove and went to my mom's house! I tore back home 45 minutes later and there it was, burned but fortunately not on fire. So I don't judge!

But definitely my H takes it to a new level. This fall I had a pregnancy scare. This doesn't happen, I don't cry wolf with this stuff. AND we were using withdrawl for BC. So H is going to the drug store and I tell him I'm late and feeling the same symptoms and he needs to get me a test. 

15 minutes later he's back home, no test! He forgot it!!! 

Like, what is that? He "didn't think I was pregnant," so I don't know if that was him being PA and mad at me for being late (??), or if he just forgot? 

The next day I started bleeding and bled SO heavily, with SO MANY HUGE CLOTS (sorry men!) that I ended up seeing an OB because I wasn't sure if it was a miscarriage.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Burying your head in the sand is what I call forgetting to get that test..... but gosh unless they tell you what's going on in their brains, who knows? 

I do have a belief that my H will purposelly forget stuff, because he figures it is something I can do myself. That's the spite talking. I had trained him to tune me out, totally. Not willing to listen. Nope, not gonna do anything for me. Mad about something I said 4 weeks ago. 

He is slowly getting better. And I took away his "power" to forget to do things for me. I no longer need him to do things for me. Now he asks all the time if I need anything LOL


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

So did you end up having a mc? My condolences if you did.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Burying your head in the sand is what I call forgetting to get that test..... but gosh unless they tell you what's going on in their brains, who knows?
> 
> I do have a belief that my H will purposelly forget stuff, because he figures it is something I can do myself. That's the spite talking. I had trained him to tune me out, totally. Not willing to listen. Nope, not gonna do anything for me. Mad about something I said 4 weeks ago.
> 
> He is slowly getting better. And I took away his "power" to forget to do things for me. I no longer need him to do things for me. Now he asks all the time if I need anything LOL


Amazing...

You get off someone neck, they start to notice

Then they want to feel "needed"

Life is grand.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> So did you end up having a mc? My condolences if you did.


Thanks. I don't know if I did, but I'm thinking so. The OB did an ultrasound and there was nothing there but by then the bleeding had pretty much stopped and he said that it is impossible to know what happened. Which, retrospectively made me angrier that he didn't get me the pg test that weekend, so at least I would have known what happened for sure. But with the amount of clots and ridiculousness of the bleeding, I'm pretty sure it had to be a miscarriage.

That was when we were living in his home country and I couldn't drive, so I had to rely on him for things like a pregnancy test. So glad we're back in the USA now and I don't need him for anything!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Amazing...
> 
> You get off someone neck, they start to notice
> 
> ...


I'm still waiting for this! 

Actually, I'm not waiting.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Also, my knee hurts really badly. I have no idea what I did to it, but it's been an on and off thing for a few months now. I think I need to stop carrying my kids around. 

Just a whine.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Right or left knee? Mine is the right one.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Left one, but still, oh my... are you my long lost twin?! 



The wine is helping significantly!!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

LOL coffee and baileys.

I'm my own twin. Possibly. Situs Inversus. "I feel like I have a split personality"!!!! I call her Phyllis. She drinks too much.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I have a question for anyone that's been where I am. Did your feelings for your spouse ever come back? Especially the women, did you fall back in love with your husbands? 

Things around here are fairly unchanged. I'm doing a good job with boundaries, and it's helping a lot. I certainly feel like I'm not racking up resentments with H any more. But, the positive feelings aren't coming back. It really takes three months for every year, huh? 

Someone reassure me that not getting worse is an improvement, even though I don't feel improved. Tell me about how you fell in love with your spouse again even though at one point you'd thought that was impossible.


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## d2snow (Mar 17, 2013)

Well, we've been separated for a year now (different states) to give us room to figure out what we want. I have to say that now things are even worse. 

Last time he came out to visit (in May) we went to a romantic oceanfront resort and he spent most of his free time texting and calling his work colleagues. So .. no, they have not come back.

I told recently we are done, but his head is in the sand and he refuses to acknowledge it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

d2snow said:


> Well, we've been separated for a year now (different states) to give us room to figure out what we want. I have to say that now things are even worse.
> 
> Last time he came out to visit (in May) we went to a romantic oceanfront resort and he spent most of his free time texting and calling his work colleagues. So .. no, they have not come back.
> 
> I told recently we are done, but his head is in the sand and he refuses to acknowledge it.


Female work "colleagues"


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

d2snow said:


> Well, we've been separated for a year now (different states) to give us room to figure out what we want. I have to say that now things are even worse.
> 
> Last time he came out to visit (in May) we went to a romantic oceanfront resort and he spent most of his free time texting and calling his work colleagues. So .. no, they have not come back.
> 
> I told recently we are done, but his head is in the sand and he refuses to acknowledge it.


Man I wanna be in Honolulu damn I would sell well something or other. Your H is a lame stain


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## d2snow (Mar 17, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Female work "colleagues"


LoL, no, I went thru all the texts. None to females


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

d2snow, I can't believe he could sit on the beach with you and text. What an idiot.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Still reading the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. Next up is Women Who Love Too Much, which from the Amazon preview appears to be written just for me.

Really realizing what a pathology it is to try to fix someone. I thought it was a good thing: that I saw the best in him and wanted him help him be the best person he could be. Now I see the flip side of that is that I didn't think he was good enough as he was, which is both patronizing and an affront to his inherent dignity as a person. It's not a pretty truth.

I still wish, for his sake and for our girls, that he'd join me on this path of self-discovery. I keep misplacing my 7 Habits and hoping he's been reading, but then I find it in the place I had forgotten I left it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Now I see the flip side of that is that I didn't think he was good enough as he was, which is both patronizing and an affront to his inherent dignity as a person. It's not a pretty truth.


The first step into a completely different world.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What is the quote: "_Men marry women with the hope they will never change and women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed_"? 

Often true.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Oh my gosh, what a day yesterday. It felt like H was doing everything he could to provoke me, and I would jump from totally calm into super-persecutor. I felt AWFUL. It took me a really long time to fall asleep, I was just chewing over the day and beating myself up for being such a jerk... questioning whether I've made any progress at all or am just the biggest, meanest jerk in the world and that's why my marriage is such a wreck.

Then this morning my period started. What a relief. I immediately apologized to H for being such a b!tch yesterday (I generally don't like that word, but there's no better explanation for me yesterday). Then something truly miraculous happened. H apologized to me! He said he was provoking me yesterday, and he was sorry. 

Wow! So it turned out yesterday was a GREAT day. It's easy to see yourself at 50,000 feet when there's a hormonal reason to disassociate myself from my own behavior. If I can carry this ability forward, and stop being so attached to being right all the time and accept that I'm human and largely irrational, I'll really be able to break through.

And B, my response to H was out of line even if I wasn't PMSing. I'm disappointed in myself for needing the PMS to be able to admit that I was being a ***** before I could apologize for it. Pride. _Must _work on that. 

But yay for being the first to swallow my pride and sincerely apologize, and then H doing the same! Amazing to see how such a bad day for us led to such a breakthrough.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Oh my gosh, what a day yesterday. It felt like H was doing everything he could to provoke me, and I would jump from totally calm into super-persecutor. I felt AWFUL. It took me a really long time to fall asleep, I was just chewing over the day and beating myself up for being such a jerk... questioning whether I've made any progress at all or am just the biggest, meanest jerk in the world and that's why my marriage is such a wreck.
> 
> Then this morning my period started. What a relief. I immediately apologized to H for being such a b!tch yesterday (I generally don't like that word, but there's no better explanation for me yesterday). Then something truly miraculous happened. H apologized to me! He said he was provoking me yesterday, and he was sorry.
> 
> ...


Changing the dynamic involves changing yourself.

Great job.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Changing the dynamic involves changing yourself.
> 
> Great job.


Thanks!

I wonder if I've ever truly apologized like that before... no expectations of a return apology, just sincere owning my behavior and sincere remorse for it. No strings attached, no thinking "but if you hadn't been such a jerk I wouldn't have been such a b!tch." 

Such relief though! I think part of me was holding back from really owning my faults because I wanted to be further away from them, not closer! I was somehow afraid that admitting I can be a jerk would make me more of a jerk. And for all my faults, _wanting _to be a jerk is not one of them! But the opposite happened! Owning my b!tchiness made me less of one! This is fantastic!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I wonder if I've ever truly apologized like that before... no expectations of a return apology, just sincere owning my behavior and sincere remorse for it. No strings attached, no thinking "but if you hadn't been such a jerk I wouldn't have been such a b!tch."
> 
> Such relief though! I think part of me was holding back from really owning my faults because I wanted to be further away from them, not closer! I was somehow afraid that admitting I can be a jerk would make me more of a jerk. And for all my faults, _wanting _to be a jerk is not one of them! But the opposite happened! Owning my b!tchiness made me less of one! This is fantastic!


Genuine apologies - without blameshifting - are cathartic for the soul.

That sort of authenticity is very effective.

The people that witness them cannot help but be moved.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Do the feelings come back once you've detached?

I'm not sure that's what you call it, but my own recent experience has been seeing H in a different way.

I saw pain in his eyes the other day. He made eye contact. It was real. Maybe I've overcome enough resentments to see it, maybe he's being vulnerable. 

It did trigger a small spark of emotion. 
The goal would be vulnerable with boundaries. Not falling into the same pattern.

I don't think it would ever be the same. Blind devotion, CD, fixing, overkill.

The grown up version. The emotion is different. Almost feels smarter. Safer.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Do the feelings come back once you've detached?
> 
> I'm not sure that's what you call it, but my own recent experience has been seeing H in a different way.
> 
> ...


That's how it feels with me.

Here's the thing.

The attraction you first felt was real.

When you take the scales off your eyes, elements of that are likely still present.

The question becomes, "Is this enough"?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad said:


> That's how it feels with me.
> 
> Here's the thing.
> 
> ...


For me, it's not enough. Not after today. Another story.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> For me, it's not enough. Not after today. Another story.


Ears ready when you are.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad, I need your help with a boundary!!

H is always moving my stuff around. Mostly my electronics, but sometimes things like my wedding/engagement rings. He says he's putting them away where they belong, or in the case of my rings, putting them "in a better place." (It freaked me out when I couldn't find the rings because he didn't tell me he was going to move them. I'm fairly certain in that case, it's because my engagement ring was his grandmother's and is fairly valuable, and he considers it his and not mine.) But my electronics, I don't know what he's doing. It drives me batty, because every time I want say, a cord to download photos from a camera, I can't find it. In his defense right now I do have a rather ridiculous amount of electronics (2 laptops, 2 iPads, several cameras, phone, etc), but half of them are from work so I have no choice but to have them. Also in his defense, I do tend to leave them where I last used them. BUT, he works from home and he leaves his laptop where he last used it, and I would never touch it.

Anyway, I have been asking him for years (years!!!) to PLEASE stop moving my things around. I am absent-minded as it is, and I spend way too much time looking for things I've misplaced (coffee, car keys, wallet, purse). I hate being absent-minded, and living with a person who moves things around without telling me only makes it worse.

I started off by asking him to tell me when he moved something (for like, the first 5 years of our relationship), and then I tried to make it simpler by just asking him to leave things where they are. It's not like they're on the stairs or the middle of the floor, you know? Maybe they're on the dining room table or an end table in the living room. I've told him if he wants to be helpful and straighten up, he can pick up the kids toys/backpacks/clothes, which are constantly everywhere. He will sometimes in the evenings straighten up the playroom, but he never straightens the house up during the day, with the exception of moving my things around.

This is taking me forever. My simple question is that I obviously need a consequence here, but I can't think of an appropriate one. Help!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

How about just taking the 10-15 most common items and get him to tell you where he thinks they belong?

You can then leave them whenever you want and you'll know where to find them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

That kind of compromise was what I was going for when I asked him to just tell me when he moved something, but he didn't do it, so I have no reason to expect he'll actually put things in the agreed-upon spot. Past experience would lead me to predict that he'll put things anywhere he wants, then tell me he "forgot" about our agreement. 

It's probably an exercise in futility. He won't even stop going through my purse and throwing things out... I need to stop chasing the idea that there's a way, another hope around the corner that he'll work WITH me instead of AGAINST me, and just accept that he's doing these things on purpose.


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## 20000 (Jul 22, 2013)

Can someone tell me how to post question, just join this site now and i don know how to came back and check your respond unless i follow this specific topic. Help please i badly need to post for advice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> That kind of compromise was what I was going for when I asked him to just tell me when he moved something, but he didn't do it, so I have no reason to expect he'll actually put things in the agreed-upon spot. Past experience would lead me to predict that he'll put things anywhere he wants, then tell me he "forgot" about our agreement.
> 
> It's probably an exercise in futility. He won't even stop going through my purse and throwing things out... I need to stop chasing the idea that there's a way, another hope around the corner that he'll work WITH me instead of AGAINST me, and just accept that he's doing these things on purpose.


I would lock your purse up.

Show him you're serious.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

20000, when you're in the sub-forum you want your thread to be in (this one is "going through divorce or separation"), look for a blue button on the left side of the page, just above the the blue line at the top of the forum, that says "New thread." Click that and you'll be able to type your post.

Conrad, I'm feeling so defeated today. Like ultimately, he still wants to work against me instead of with me. But, I'm sick today, and I'm feeling tired and pessimistic. I think I need to put this on hold until I'm feeling better.

Blech. Good thing my girls play so well together, it gives me a chance to rest!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> 20000, when you're in the sub-forum you want your thread to be in (this one is "going through divorce or separation"), look for a blue button on the left side of the page, just above the the blue line at the top of the forum, that says "New thread." Click that and you'll be able to type your post.
> 
> Conrad, I'm feeling so defeated today. Like ultimately, he still wants to work against me instead of with me. But, I'm sick today, and I'm feeling tired and pessimistic. I think I need to put this on hold until I'm feeling better.
> 
> Blech. Good thing my girls play so well together, it gives me a chance to rest!


I've found when you go into things when you aren't at your best, things go very poorly.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I've found when you go into things when you aren't at your best, things go very poorly.


So true. Hopefully not true for my vacuum cleaner, which I decided to disassemble and clean on my temporary DayQuil buzz.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm still so freaking sick, but started antibiotics yesterday. Strep. Though truly, it feels like strep PLUS flu, since my body aches, I'm coughing, and I have awful post-nasal drip. I'm burning up too. You should see me all sexy walking around in my underwear and hacking all over the place. H actually slept on the couch last night. The nerve! 

(kidding, I would have too.)

Anyway, if I never post again, it's because I died. Not to be catastrophic, but it could happen.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Oh my, what a week. Finally starting to feel better. I've developed a cough which was SO painful yesterday, in spite of being on antibiotics, but the pain is much, much less today, so I'm thinking the antibiotics are working on that too. Fever was still up over 101 last night, but it broke overnight and I got to enjoy a sweaty night's sleep. So glad I bothered to do laundry and put fresh sheets on the bed yesterday.

Today H is a bit sick. One of the most irritating things about this has been that my ears are totally plugged and I can't hear well. So now H's are, and he said something like "Oh now I understand what you meant about not being able to hear this week."

I just walked away, because I'm SO exhausted that I don't think I can be either reasonable or patient, but that comment made me feel so depressed. Why does he need to experience his ears being plugged to understand that mine were? I told him, and all week long he'd speak quietly to me, and I'd tell him again and again "I can't hear you, can you say that again?" And he'd repeat it in the same quiet voice. Why can't he just speak louder?? 

He's done nothing to help me out this week. Nothing. He never even brought me so much as a mug of tea. He's so selfish. Why am I bothering again?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm glad your fever broke.

I'm sure it was quite a relief.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Whew, feeling SO MUCH BETTER! 

Man, that was a doozy. Poor D8 has it now, so I'm spending the night in her room with her. She got sick as an infant, and I still can't leave her alone for the night when she has a fever. I hope she gets through this one easier than I did. D5 has her father's immune system, thank God.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Oh my gosh, what a week. We're all on the mend now though.

When my older daughter was just 12 days old, she got sick. I woke up at 2:30 am to nurse her and she was just burning up. At that age, any fever over 100.4 means straight to the ER, so we rushed off. It was awful. Spinal tap, IV fluids and antibiotics, 12 hours in a private room in the pediatric ER while they took care of her and watched to see if she needed to be in the ICU or just the regular pediatric ward. I was a post-partum, first time mom and I just sobbed for about 24 hours. Fortunately, she spent 3 days in the hospital and then we were able to go home.

But after that, I'd have occasional panic attacks about her getting sick, and every time she got a fever I'd just sob. I started to get over it when she was about 2, but last night was really hard. Her fever was up to almost 105 even though she'd had 2 doses of antibiotic, and we were on the phone with the pediatrician trying to decide whether to take her in to the hospital for bloodwork or give in another 12 hours to wait and see. It's stressful when they're that sick. Ultimately we decided to wait and see, and finally a few hours ago she really turned a corner; talking again, walking around some. 

I hate when they're sick.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Well, the littler one has it now. Poor kid has been burning up for the past few nights. Fortunately for me, her fevers don't freak me out the way fevers in her big sister do. I suppose that's because of what I wrote about in my last post.

Still rather in survival mode. Recovering from this thing is just exhausting. I'm thinking it was the flu. No wonder people vaccinate against this! If I wasn't off for the summer, I'd have missed an entire week of work. Crazypants.

No updates on the marital front, no time or energy to think about it. That's good though I think, I'm an over-thinker. One of the books I've been reading talks about how relationships can be made of an over-worker and an under-worker. Wow does that one hit home. So maybe something that takes the wind out of my sails is really not so bad for me. I haven't been able to do it all for the past two weeks and what do you know... the world is still spinning.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I heard something on the radio this morning.

Mentioned massive stomach/digestive issues associated with some bad lettuce in Iowa/Minnesota area.

Thought of you.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I think I single-handedly bred a new flu. Perhaps a swine-dog-corn flu? You'll see, it'll kill millions this winter and they'll pinpoint the origin to somewhere in the northeast. Good thing this message board is anonymous!!


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

naga75 said:


> i was this type of man for years.
> now that i back my words with action, its a whole 'nother ball game.
> and even though my marriage has suffered extreme trauma in the last few years, we are on the track to having a fantastic marriage and (more importantly) a true partnership.
> accountablility.


Resurrecting this older post b/c I want to ask Naga75 what changed. Why did you go from not acting on your words to acting on them?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Ugh, what a day. Have I written about how H has never supported me working? I know it's common in couples with small children, that arranging childcare is 100% the mom's responsibility while the husband goes off to work whenever he pleases without considering who is going to watch the children, but that doesn't make it ok, you know? And that's how it goes in my house, even though H works from home and sets his own schedule. Historically, he'd even agree to watch the kids, then pull out at the last minute, leaving me zero time to figure out a new plan.

Anyway. I start teaching in the fall, but there's a lot (LOT!!) of work for me to get ready by September. Today I needed to get to my classroom, and H wanted met to take the kids with me. I told him no, last time I did that the five year old ended up running naked through the building. Fortunately not too many people were there, and the ones that were have kids themselves.

So I set the kids up with SpongeBob and some games, H is home with them, and he keeps asking our younger daughter (the one who hates to separate from me) "Are you sure you don't want to go with mommy? Now's your last chance." And I explain to him that she's fine, and I really just need to do a few things by myself. I won't be gone longer than an hour. The girls are fantastic at entertaining themselves, this isn't asking much of him.

So I go, and I get home and the 5 year old is crying. She missed me. And our 8 year old tells me that her father said, "Well you should have gone with mommy when you had the chance. Next time go with her."

Ohhh, it makes me so angry. He's always used the kids like that, to try to control me and make it hard for me to work. 

So I told him that's not healthy for her. She's going to kindergarten in the fall, and she needs us to build her up--tell her she'll be ok without me, I'll be back soon, why don't you go play with barbies? 

I think I'm angry because I addressed how that was unhealthy for our daughter, but not how angry I am that he'd manipulate the kids to get back at me for working. Should I not initiate a discussion about it with him? Or should I? It's been six hours and I still feel so hurt.

:-(


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stop explaining.

Tell him you're not ok with it.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

You're so strict with that! 

And I so owe you a drink...


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

It was a huge personal victory for me to not give in and take the kids with me. I hate that leaving the kids with him means exposing them to his manipulation, too. I wonder if it's healthier for them if I go ahead and arrange outside childcare when I need to be out of the house? I don't want to give in to him, but the kids need protecting more than anything else, right?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> It was a huge personal victory for me to not give in and take the kids with me. I hate that leaving the kids with him means exposing them to his manipulation, too. I wonder if it's healthier for them if I go ahead and arrange outside childcare when I need to be out of the house? I don't want to give in to him, but the kids need protecting more than anything else, right?


I would simply be proactive and hire someone to come to the house and watch them.

Should make for an interesting follow-up discussion.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

He'll be more concerned with how much the sitter costs I'm sure. Which would be ridiculous, because for all of our problems, money isn't one of them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> He'll be more concerned with how much the sitter costs I'm sure. Which would be ridiculous, because for all of our problems, money isn't one of them.


100% correct.

But, it permits you to stand up to him.

He'll be the one with the problem.

See how this works?

It's about power.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Ah, yes, I see. It's still so ingrained in me to plan things in advance to prevent problems/keep the peace at all costs. Which is a revelation I'm sure you find shocking.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Ah, yes, I see. It's still so ingrained in me to plan things in advance to prevent problems/keep the peace at all costs. Which is a revelation I'm sure you find shocking.


No doubt!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> It was a huge personal victory for me to not give in and take the kids with me.


I agree.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

PMS is my undoing. I get so frustrated with him, and bam, before I know it I'm just talking talking talking, b!tching, b!tching, b!tching. 

I need some kind of plan in place to deal with this. Maybe a 4 o'clock beer? Headphones and my iPod?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> PMS is my undoing. I get so frustrated with him, and bam, before I know it I'm just talking talking talking, b!tching, b!tching, b!tching.
> 
> I need some kind of plan in place to deal with this. Maybe a 4 o'clock beer? Headphones and my iPod?


4am beers and hot tubs work around here.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

finally read through this entire thread. seems like you are in the same place as back in March with your husband, you just keep going in circles. 

I am an author too, published 7 books and lots of articles (nonfiction...working on a graphic novel with Dark Horse though). rejection is part of the game. It gets easier to hear over time. But sometimes the rejection can be harsh, very harsh. I just remind myself that everybody has a view and some people hude behund the anonymous peer review system and talk harsher than they would in person, and their harsh tone is their issue, not mine. I have manners, thankfully.

I hope you keep at the writing. My experience is that there is little money in it, but it is rewarding in other ways. 

Are you teaching college level?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to read all of this Arendt. I definitely feel like I'm going in circles. For a few days I'll feel like I'm making progress, then H will do or say something and I'll feel so hurt that I fall back to square one. The problem, I think, is that I'm still doing all of this to save the relationship. I'm terribly stubborn, and I want a marriage to man who is a partner. I want that man to be the one who is already the father of my children. So as much as I understand that I can't change my H and can't hang my happiness on him becoming who I want him to be, I still am. In a sense though, I hung my happiness on that 10 years ago without realizing it, because while I know I can't change my H, I also know that I can't change the fact that I view an intact nuclear family as the ideal. I very much wish I didn't have to stay married to my H, but more than that, I want to keep my girls' parents together. 

Outside of that situation, I actually feel really good about my life. I'm teaching high school math and physics and I'm super excited about that. (I decided my senior year in college that I wouldn't get my PhD. I've always really, really wanted to be a mom, and I didn't think that I could be involved at the level I want to be involved while keeping up with the research and teaching and grant chasing that a physics professorship or national lab job requires). Plus the writing I do is for middle-grade kids. The book I was pitching (taking a short break because I don't want to get a contract while I'm a first-year teacher) is about a little girl who uses math and science to solve mysteries. Kind of a newer STEM Nancy Drew. I'm not counting on making money from it, though of course that would be wonderful!

And still, I have a tiny bit of hope that the marriage will at least hit passably acceptable status once I'm out of the house 40 hours per week. H still works from home every day (he went to a coffee shop once, when I told him that a sandwich and a latte would cost him $10 but a divorce would cost him 150k, and which did he prefer?), but that was it. We spend far, far too much time together.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I think I've had a breakthrough today. I really do deserve to be treated better than this! I've been going through the motions and telling H about my boundaries, but it's felt so forced and artificial this whole time. I had boundaries because it makes sense to have them, I see the argument for their effectiveness, and I hoped it would improve my marriage. Great, but I didn't really and truly have boundaries because I knew in my heart that I deserve better than to be treated badly. 

I OWN these boundaries today! 

I think the straw was last night: I was going to complain to H about my new job not getting me some information that would have saved me a lot of time, so I jokingly said to him something like, 'oh it's starting already, I need to complain about work.' And I can't remember what he said, but it was something about my work not having started yet, and he was scoffing at the idea that I work. It made me so angry, I've been working hard to get 5 classes prepped and ready to go in September, how dare he tell me I don't work??? But I just walked away. He tried to chase me down and ask me to tell him what I was going to say, and I told him I didn't want to any more. For once he actually chased me down for an explanation, and it was the first time I think that I didn't want him to. I didn't walk away to hand him a consequence, I walked away because I (finally) truly understand that I don't engage with people who scoff at me. Not to punish them, just because I deserve better than that. So I explained when he asked, and he made excuses and denied, and I told him that I know what happened and I wasn't going to let him pretend it didn't. Then he said "I apologize" which I've always felt is kind of a PA way of avoiding saying "I'm sorry," but I didn't say anything because if it means the same thing to him, that's fine. 

But I still didn't tell him what I was going to say. And again, it wasn't to punish him, it's because an apology is nice, but it's not necessarily going to make me feel like sharing immediately. 

Arendt, you inspired me to re-read my thread the other day too, and I could see myself going through the motions of setting boundaries but not really owning them. Conrad, I might be slow, but I think I've finally gotten it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Arendt, you inspired me to re-read my thread the other day too, and I could see myself going through the motions of setting boundaries but not really owning them. Conrad, I might be slow, but I think I've finally gotten it.


Lights, 

It's a process.

Without practicing it, ruminating over it, and applying it, the lightbulb doesn't necessarily come on.

You're actually "de-programming" or "un-learning" your own dysfunctional behavior.

And, you're doing well.

I think you will get more apologies - and likely sincere apologies from him as you move forward.

If YOU value you, others will too.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Lights,
> 
> It's a process.
> 
> ...


Thanks Conrad, I can really see that now in retrospect. I can also see the role my upbringing had in how I see myself. Ugh. I'm not in counseling now because my insurance doesn't start until september, and we've paid quite enough out of pocket for counseling for one year, but it's something I think I'm really ready to talk about when the time comes.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Thanks Conrad, I can really see that now in retrospect. I can also see the role my upbringing had in how I see myself. Ugh. I'm not in counseling now because my insurance doesn't start until september, and we've paid quite enough out of pocket for counseling for one year, but it's something I think I'm really ready to talk about when the time comes.


If this link works, it's a book that would really help you at this juncture. A useful guide to helping you sort out your childhood and the different parts of your personality.

http://www.mcssl.com/SecureCart/Vie...token=8dae7e0138c94765afc2e303169ee428&bhcp=1


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Hello all. I'm just posting today because I need some virtual hugs. This is all so much harder emotionally than I've been admitting to myself, and I'm having one of those days where it's really hard to pretend that I'm totally fine. I feel so sad today. I never thought I'd be in this situation... but it's feeling more and more inevitable that my marriage doesn't have much time left. H hasn't done anything to work on it, and I'm feeling further and further away. Ultimately too, I just don't see us being compatible any more. I mean, I doubt we ever were, I just didn't have the self-esteem to believe that my preferences were valid too or to trust my perceptions. 

And now what? Now I have two amazing kids who aren't going to get to grow up in an intact home because I'm such an idiot that I messed up the biggest decision of my life.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Update! Not 5 minutes after I wrote this, I got a surprise phone call from a dear old friend, just calling to say hi and catch up. It was lovely. I feel so much better, so much less alone and lonely. I do have amazing friends, even if they are mostly scattered across the country. So thankful.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Update! Not 5 minutes after I wrote this, I got a surprise phone call from a dear old friend, just calling to say hi and catch up. It was lovely. I feel so much better, so much less alone and lonely. I do have amazing friends, even if they are mostly scattered across the country. So thankful.


You do realize your post is what prompted her to call


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

northernlights said:


> Hello all. I'm just posting today because I need some virtual hugs. This is all so much harder emotionally than I've been admitting to myself, and I'm having one of those days where it's really hard to pretend that I'm totally fine. I feel so sad today. I never thought I'd be in this situation... but it's feeling more and more inevitable that my marriage doesn't have much time left. H hasn't done anything to work on it, and I'm feeling further and further away. Ultimately too, I just don't see us being compatible any more. I mean, I doubt we ever were, I just didn't have the self-esteem to believe that my preferences were valid too or to trust my perceptions.
> 
> And now what? Now I have two amazing kids who aren't going to get to grow up in an intact home because I'm such an idiot that I messed up the biggest decision of my life.


 The important thing is what you teach your children as you go through it. Since when are we condemned to the mistakes of our past? Is that success, to stay in a situation that is unhealthy for all just because you made it many years ago. If you don't like your job or your house, you can change it. You want a better life, then why shouldn't you have one!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Incognito78 (Mar 3, 2009)

northernlights said:


> I think it's time I collect everything in one spot. H and I are 3 weeks away from my move-out date and I'm feeling excited and hopeful.
> 
> Here's our background:
> Together 13 years (we met when I was 21 and he was 26)
> ...


 Omg, I could've written your post myself!! Your life sounds exactly like mine!! How scary is that?? It took me three years to decide to leave mine, and it was only just this past may when I was recovering from
Cancer and had an awakening experience, that I realized I didn't want to live this way anymore. How are you and the kids doing? If you want to read my story, I posted today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Incognito78 said:


> Omg, I could've written your post myself!! Your life sounds exactly like mine!! How scary is that?? It took me three years to decide to leave mine, and it was only just this past may when I was recovering from
> Cancer and had an awakening experience, that I realized I didn't want to live this way anymore. How are you and the kids doing? If you want to read my story, I posted today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you done any work with boundaries?


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## Incognito78 (Mar 3, 2009)

Conrad said:


> Have you done any work with boundaries?


I am working on that with my counsellor. I know when I met my ex I was very giving, he did all the taking. I am very good about asserting myself and letting people know what is okay. But can you elaborate more?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Incognito78 said:


> I am working on that with my counsellor. I know when I met my ex I was very giving, he did all the taking. I am very good about asserting myself and letting people know what is okay. But can you elaborate more?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What happens when you tell him you are not ok with something?


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## Incognito78 (Mar 3, 2009)

northernlights said:


> Hello all. I'm just posting today because I need some virtual hugs. This is all so much harder emotionally than I've been admitting to myself, and I'm having one of those days where it's really hard to pretend that I'm totally fine. I feel so sad today. I never thought I'd be in this situation... but it's feeling more and more inevitable that my marriage doesn't have much time left. H hasn't done anything to work on it, and I'm feeling further and further away. Ultimately too, I just don't see us being compatible any more. I mean, I doubt we ever were, I just didn't have the self-esteem to believe that my preferences were valid too or to trust my perceptions.
> 
> And now what? Now I have two amazing kids who aren't going to get to grow up in an intact home because I'm such an idiot that I messed up the biggest decision of my life.


northernlights, you are always blaming yourself in this. What is he doing to fix it?? You said he is doing nothing! My ex was like this too. A marriage cannot work when only one person is making effort. You are correct that perhaps you may need to do some work on your own if you suffer self esteem or self love, but you cannot blame yourself for him not willing to change. Those are his issues. And if he is anything like my ex, he sees himself as perfect and won't change one bit. Not for you, your kids or anyone else. Do what is best for YOU. Your children will be better off in a happy home than one that is wrought with tension. Because that it not what a healthy marriage is and it's not a good example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Incognito78 (Mar 3, 2009)

Conrad said:


> What happens when you tell him you are not ok with something?


 he would listen, and say he would try and change, but never made any effort. I was constantly complaining that his words meant nothing when he never bothered to follow through with action. I did this for 9 years. Constantly going over the same arguments with no resolve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Incognito78 said:


> he would listen, and say he would try and change, but never made any effort. I was constantly complaining that his words meant nothing when he never bothered to follow through with action. I did this for 9 years. Constantly going over the same arguments with no resolve.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One thing I've learned from Conrad is that you need actions to enforce a boundary. I don't know if it's a man thing, but my H has never responded to my words. I mean, he'll say words in response, but it's all meaningless. It's all forgotten 10 seconds later and nothing changes. 

That's been really hard to adjust to.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Incognito78 said:


> northernlights, you are always blaming yourself in this. What is he doing to fix it?? You said he is doing nothing!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yeah, he's still doing absolutely nothing. He's the most passive person on the planet I sometimes think. Making himself a snack is about the most he does.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

northernlights said:


> I have such overwhelming guilt because I don't love him any more. The marriage counselor didn't help at all in this regard, because at every session she talks about how she can tell how much he loves me. I told her today that I just don't believe it. I don't believe that you can love someone and be content to watch them suffer. He admitted at marriage counseling that he (or, "part of him," whatever that means) is just waiting for me to drop this whole business so we can go back to the way we were. Me miserable but giving it my all, him happy as a clam.
> 
> 
> *I read your thread a while back. I think I posted... or I wanted to. This is the part that resonated with me. I changed a lot a few years ago and wanted more with our marriage. Now my wife wants things to be how they were for the first 17 years together. I like your "happy as a clam" comment. That is my wife.*
> ...


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

You mentioned an "inhouse" separation. Are you past that. I really am trying to read this. It is very long like mine is. Just like my story, yours continues to go in circles. Nothing seems to improve. 

What I try to remember is that people don't change by force.

oh by the way....I clean up my wife's stuff all the time. She gets mad at me as well. I just want our dining table to be free of clutter so we can have room to put our plates. I also clean off her dresser. Most of it is just old receipts that should go in the trash. We just have so much "stuff". I"ll focus on cleaning just my stuff from here on out.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Trickster said:


> You mentioned an "inhouse" separation. Are you past that. I really am trying to read this. It is very long like mine is. Just like my story, yours continues to go in circles. Nothing seems to improve.


I don't know if we're past the in-house separation. We were in separate countries for a month, but he came back to the US at the end of April. We still don't sleep in the same bed, but we haven't discussed what's going on with us since marriage counseling. I don't want to bring it up because I'm done talking about us, and he hasn't brought it up either. I consider us married, but as far as I am concerned the relationship between us is over. If it weren't for the kids, I'd definitely be divorced.

Circles, yes. I do feel like I've gotten off the ride now that I just don't care a bit any more, but sometimes I still get annoyed when he does something especially irritating. Mostly I just feel mildly depressed that I'm stuck in this situation and mad at myself for f*cking up the most important decision of my life.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

northernlights said:


> I don't know if we're past the in-house separation. We were in separate countries for a month, but he came back to the US at the end of April. We still don't sleep in the same bed, but we haven't discussed what's going on with us since marriage counseling. I don't want to bring it up because I'm done talking about us, and he hasn't brought it up either. I consider us married, but as far as I am concerned the relationship between us is over. If it weren't for the kids, I'd definitely be divorced.
> 
> Circles, yes. I do feel like I've gotten off the ride now that I just don't care a bit any more, but sometimes I still get annoyed when he does something especially irritating. Mostly I just feel mildly depressed that I'm stuck in this situation and mad at myself for f*cking up the most important decision of my life.


I don't know if talking out it with our spouse makes a bit of difference. Do you agree?

I wish I just would have kept my mouth shut and kept everything to myself and just accept things the way they were, even though I am not all that happy. I am just not an actor.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Trickster said:


> I don't know if talking out it with our spouse makes a bit of difference. Do you agree?
> 
> I wish I just would have kept my mouth shut and kept everything to myself and just accept things the way they were, even though I am not all that happy. I am just not an actor.


I do agree. Talking with my h has never gotten me anywhere but disappointed. 

I think I was ok with accepting things the way they were until a few things happened and pushed me over the edge. Now I just can't get back there.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I do agree. Talking with my h has never gotten me anywhere but disappointed.
> 
> I think I was ok with accepting things the way they were until a few things happened and pushed me over the edge. Now I just can't get back there.


Even with boundary enforcement?

Tell us what's going on.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Even with boundary enforcement?
> 
> Tell us what's going on.


It's just everything. Nothing has changed. I still feel like the only adult in the relationship, and I'm just tired of it. 

Like, I do all of the parenting. I get the girls up, and make the lunches, and get them off to school, and read to them, and cook dinner, and clean up, and take care of them when they're sick... all of it. He doesn't initiate anything. He still isn't even speaking German to them.

I think he's responded to my boundaries by withdrawing even more. Like, the last time the little one hit him in the head with a toy for not doing what she wanted, and he gave in to her, I said, "Do you think it's ok to teach her that she can get what she wants by hitting?" And he just sighed and walked away. But after that, I think he just totally forgets. Or feels like I'm persecuting. I don't even know, because he's never initiated a conversation with me about any of this.

He's just the strangest person and I think severely delusional. He's so wrapped up in his own reality that there's just no getting through to him. Nothing sticks. 

Like, I got really sick this summer, and he went to dinner at my mom's house before going to get my antibiotics, so I had to wait an hour and a half for them. So I told him that I was really, really hurt by that. And he said well he had to get the girls fed first. And I said, no, my mom fed the girls. And he said he had to be there to help clean up (he thinks carrying one plate to the sink is helping clean up). I know I talked too much on this one, but I just wanted him to understand that I felt abandoned. I wanted him to say, "you're right, I totally should have run out for the antibiotics before dinner." And finally I dragged a half-hearted apology out of him. Then a week or so later I made a reference to it (I know, I shouldn't have done that. I was totally testing to see if he was actually sorry), and he basically said he wasn't sorry, he did the right thing eating dinner first and would do it again.

I know it sounds trivial but it's not to me. He doesn't think about me. When I'm sick, or tired, he just doesn't care. I tried so hard to tell him how I felt without attacking and I really do think I'm good at that. But there's just no getting him to understand that I have feelings, and I exist outside of his mind.

He didn't have siblings or friends growing up. He was the weird kid who never talked to anyone. I've never seen him show compassion to another person. I think there's just something wrong with him. And I'm sick of trying to get through to him when it's getting me nowhere.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Some people just can't or won't change. 

Was he like that before you married him or did it come out later?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Some people just can't or won't change.
> 
> Was he like that before you married him or did it come out later?


He was definitely like this, but I didn't understand the extent or severity of it. Plus we both made a lot of excuses for him and there was a good deal of gas lighting on his part. I also think that the stress of having kids has made it come to light more. We didn't need to be a team before kids, and we weren't, but I thought we could be if we hd to. But that didn't happen.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> It's just everything. Nothing has changed. I still feel like the only adult in the relationship, and I'm just tired of it.
> 
> Like, I do all of the parenting. I get the girls up, and make the lunches, and get them off to school, and read to them, and cook dinner, and clean up, and take care of them when they're sick... all of it. He doesn't initiate anything. He still isn't even speaking German to them.
> 
> ...


Do you think being considerate is a decision?


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Northern ~

I am just beginning to read your thread. Can you tell me how his Mom treated him in infancy and the toddler years?

VH


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

northernlights said:


> He was definitely like this, but I didn't understand the extent or severity of it. Plus we both made a lot of excuses for him and there was a good deal of gas lighting on his part. I also think that the stress of having kids has made it come to light more. We didn't need to be a team before kids, and we weren't, but I thought we could be if we hd to. But that didn't happen.


I think behaviors of all sorts often worsen after marriage. Children are stressful and many parents seem to do a poor job of coping. He sounds like a classic case. But he absolutely could have something going on that hasn't been or may never been diagnosed. Unfortunately.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Do you think being considerate is a decision?


For people who are capable of it I think it is. I see your point. I'm pretty sure he's capable of it, it's just that he's never realized that it's something he needs to choose to do. 

I can't emphasize enough though how difficult it is for him to live in an objective reality instead of his own delusions. This is the man who until very recently thought of himself as a blonde. His hair is near black. He told me when he was 30 that he considers himself good enough at basketball to have played for the NBA, had he grown up in the US. He would have guesstimated his IQ to be somewhere in the 130 range. It's not, not by a looooong shot. As a child, he considered himself special and superior to other people. He said he assumed through at least his early 30s that he'd be famous one day. So it's no stretch for him to look at our lives, conclude that I should be happy, and act as though everything is just fine. 

I think the real problem is breaking through is bubble, and I just don't even want to any more, because I neither like nor love him. My only motivation to keep working at this point is that it will benefit my girls to not have a father who's delusional.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

VeryHurt said:


> Northern ~
> 
> I am just beginning to read your thread. Can you tell me how his Mom treated him in infancy and the toddler years?
> 
> VH


His father was an emotionally unavailable alcoholic. His mother drank a lot too. I don't know much about his infancy or toddlerhood, because my MIL doesn't remember anything. Strange for the mother of an only child, but she can't tell me when he started talking, walking, using the potty... nothing. His mother went back to work when he was about 1 and his Austrian grandmother took care of him. She was widowed at a very young age when her husband died in WWII and raised 2 boys alone. H was her only grandson and she also had one granddaughter. My understanding is that she was pretty lenient and doting.

MIL is a piece of work, no doubt. You can't really have a conversation with her. You can each take turns talking, but something is missing. There's no feeling like you're really truly communicating.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> For people who are capable of it I think it is. I see your point. I'm pretty sure he's capable of it, it's just that he's never realized that it's something he needs to choose to do.
> 
> I can't emphasize enough though how difficult it is for him to live in an objective reality instead of his own delusions. This is the man who until very recently thought of himself as a blonde. His hair is near black. He told me when he was 30 that he considers himself good enough at basketball to have played for the NBA, had he grown up in the US. He would have guesstimated his IQ to be somewhere in the 130 range. It's not, not by a looooong shot. As a child, he considered himself special and superior to other people. He said he assumed through at least his early 30s that he'd be famous one day. So it's no stretch for him to look at our lives, conclude that I should be happy, and act as though everything is just fine.
> 
> I think the real problem is breaking through is bubble, and I just don't even want to any more, because I neither like nor love him. My only motivation to keep working at this point is that it will benefit my girls to not have a father who's delusional.


They need to see a Mom who can handle conflict directly without losing her cool.

Remember... cool, firm, dispassionate


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> They need to see a Mom who can handle conflict directly without losing her cool.
> 
> Remember... cool, firm, dispassionate


AGGHHHH!!!!!!
Trying very hard to be the mom who doesn't lose her cool, but... AGGgGGJJJJHHHHHHH!!

Today I was hanging out with my mother, asking her if it's ok if my MIL and her sister stay with them next month when they come visit (I live next door to my mom). Quick background, my MIL complains about my house every time she visits. Says it's not a "House" really, it's a "Cottage," and she can hear everything that goes on upstairs (_everything_). So I don't get sex whenever she comes, even if it's for two weeks. And now we have dogs, and they can be noisy at night when you're not used to them (they have to investigate whenever someone goes to the bathroom, or rolls over...), and I just don't want to deal with her. And my OWN MOTHER tells me that two years ago when MIL visited (the last time she visited, because we went to live in her country remember for a year from july 2012 to April 2013), that she complained TO MY MOTHER that I can be "*****y" to my husband.

F*CK that! And my own mother, who will throw me under the bus whenever she gets the chance, didn't defend me. Which is part of the problem. Was I *****y to H? I don't know... at this point in my life, I was waking up 5 to 15 times per night because my THREE YEAR OLD, who was still nursing, wanted to sleep attached to my boob. And my H wouldn't do a damn thing to help. I was failing to wean her, obviously, but I'd ask him to please take care of her at night, because if she saw me, she'd want to nurse. Just for a few nights, just until she weaned. He'd agree, as always, then come midnight he'd say, 'Oh just nurse her, I'm too tired to deal with this."

GRrRRR!!! I"m SO not over this. I was SO incredibly tired. I thought I was going to die. I truly had not slept through the night in over 3 years, and not for more than 3 or 4 hours at a stretch since she was born. And H would wake me up in the morning!! 

So, did I snap at him a few times? Probably!! I don't even REMEMBER. I can't emphasize enough how tired I was, how miserable I felt... AND HE'D WAKE ME UP IN THE MORNING!!!! He was torturing me. 

Anyway, I'm just so angry. I'm angry that my own mother doesn't say, what an ass he is. I'm so sorry. You deserve better. And I'm angry that my MIL is going to come visit and I have to be nice to her. I moved my kids to her country so they could experience that culture, learn the language, and have a relationship with their grandparents. I was lonely, and it was stressful for me, and no one ever said thank you or seemed to give a crap that I made a sacrifice. My H sure as hell didn't.

Grr. So I'm venting here, because if I tell H he gets to be the victim again, and I'm the *****, and nothing will ever change. 

I can see the lack of boundaries all over the place in the past, I get that. But I don't want people in my life who think so little of me that they'll abuse me without the proper boundary. 

Help. How do I feel better?????


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

And I'm not a horrid person, so there's no way I was being horridly b*tchy to my H. On this same visit, I was fixing the toilet one morning because it was running. And I was going back and forth between the bathroom and the video on running toilets that I was watching, trying to remember exactly what the video showed because my toilet looked different inside. ANd she says to me, "Are you mad at me?"

ANd I was like, Huh? I apologized if I'd walked by her without saying good morning (I assume that's what prompted the question, but I didn't even ask. My reaction is to make peace and not be confrontational), and I explained that I was so fixated on the toilet that I was just in my zone. And she said, "Oh ok then."

Which is a long way of saying, she's not the nicest person. SHe's very PA (which I'm sure is where H learned it from), and I'm very peacemaker (see above about my mom). For me to be snappy or *****y takes either a visit from aunt flow or some really extreme jacka$$ery on my husband's part.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> And I'm not a horrid person, so there's no way I was being horridly b*tchy to my H. On this same visit, I was fixing the toilet one morning because it was running. And I was going back and forth between the bathroom and the video on running toilets that I was watching, trying to remember exactly what the video showed because my toilet looked different inside. ANd she says to me, "Are you mad at me?"
> 
> ANd I was like, Huh? I apologized if I'd walked by her without saying good morning (I assume that's what prompted the question, but I didn't even ask. My reaction is to make peace and not be confrontational), and I explained that I was so fixated on the toilet that I was just in my zone. And she said, "Oh ok then."
> 
> Which is a long way of saying, she's not the nicest person. SHe's very PA (which I'm sure is where H learned it from), and I'm very peacemaker (see above about my mom). For me to be snappy or *****y takes either a visit from aunt flow or some really extreme jacka$$ery on my husband's part.


Peacemaker?

Would that extend to enabler?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I can see the lack of boundaries all over the place in the past, I get that. But I don't want people in my life who think so little of me that they'll abuse me without the proper boundary.
> 
> Help. How do I feel better?????


What if I tell you I think the above is human nature?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Peacemaker?
> 
> Would that extend to enabler?


Yeah. Definitely. I think I've been told my whole life that doing anything except bending over backwards to keep the peace is b!tchy, and if I assert myself at all, then I'm being like my mother's sister, a b!tch. So I always scrutinize what I'm doing, if I'm being nice enough, and looking at myself through that lens (both of my parents have always judged me this way. Women are supposed to be kind and take whatever sh!t you throw at them. Men can get away with most anything). This probably does not surprise you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Yeah. Definitely. I think I've been told my whole life that doing anything except bending over backwards to keep the peace is b!tchy, and if I assert myself at all, then I'm being like my mother's sister, a b!tch. So I always scrutinize what I'm doing, if I'm being nice enough, and looking at myself through that lens (both of my parents have always judged me this way. Women are supposed to be kind and take whatever sh!t you throw at them. Men can get away with most anything). This probably does not surprise you.


No, it doesn't

Would it surprise you if I told you standing up for yourself doesn't involve hostility?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> What if I tell you I think the above is human nature?


That would make me feel better, because I'm normal. And then worse, because the way I've been treated sucks and makes me sad to think about. And then better again, because I have better skills now and tomorrow's a new day. And then worse again, because H is not changing. But then a little bit better, because what he does matters less and less every day.

Thanks for listening to my tantrum. I had a glass of wine and didn't unload on my H. Success?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> No, it doesn't
> 
> Would it surprise you if I told you standing up for yourself doesn't involve hostility?


No, it totally wouldn't. I think I have stood up for myself before in a healthy way, but when I do that in my family my mom tells me I'm making trouble. It makes me doubt myself and doubt how I come across to other people.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> No, it totally wouldn't. I think I have stood up for myself before in a healthy way, but when I do that in my family my mom tells me I'm making trouble. It makes me doubt myself and doubt how I come across to other people.


Moms have plenty of power.

Love yourself enough to realize she's not objective.

What are you ok with...

What are you not ok with...

That's what it boils down to.

You own those things.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

northernlights said:


> No, it totally wouldn't. I think I have stood up for myself before in a healthy way, but when I do that in my family my mom tells me I'm making trouble. It makes me doubt myself and doubt how I come across to other people.


One thing I learned as I aged, and it took awhile, was to stop being a people pleaser. My generation of little girls was taught to be sweet. I can hear my mother saying that right now. That echoed through my life. It meant don't make trouble. That's what your mother wants. A sweet child who doesn't make trouble and behaves exactly as her mother and everyone else wants. Only problem is you're an adult and not a child. 

Don't care what others think of your behavior. That's their problem.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Wow! Today we had dinner at my parents' house, and after H left my mom asked me, in front of my dad, "Do you think he just didn't help at night because he knew DD would only want you anyway?" I said certainly she would, that's why I never asked him for help at night (just that one time when I wanted to nightwean her. When she was over 3), but that was why I had wanted him to take them out to breakfast. And she said, "yeah, that was really lousy of him to not do that." And my dad nodded.

Whoa! The fact that she brought it up in front of my dad means she told him! And the fact that he nodded means he also thinks it was lousy of him. 

It's so nice to feel understood. H used to spend so much of our conversation time denying and gaslighting, that it's just really nice to have someone believe me and care about me. 

Things with H are still very much the same. I ended up telling him what his mother said to my mother (my real life girlfriends said he needed to know, in case there was any kind of incident during the visit), and he just kind of rolled his eyes and said that didn't surprise him. Then he just looked at me. So I just looked back at him, instead of solving the problem for him. Then he said he could talk to her if I wanted, and I said to talk to her if he wanted to, but not on my behalf. I don't think he has though. Or, if he has, he hasn't said anything to me about the conversation.

Obviously I'm going to have to keep sharp with my boundaries during the visit. That should go over like a lead balloon.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just checking in with some general thoughts on the year we spent living in H's home country, now that the whole experience has had some time to sink in.

H's parents are in their seventies. They had him in their mid-30s, and he'll be 40 this year. His grandmother, a WWII widow, spent a great deal of time with him when he was a child.

He's more like a typical 1950s husband than a 2010 husband. Austria is a conservative country, and his behavior is pretty typical of an older Austrian's. Some of his friends there are more modern. They probably also have younger parents. 

I think I didn't realize how big that cultural barrier was. I don't think H realized, because he's not introspective, how different he is from a typical American man his (or my) age. Because he doesn't have an accent, I think I assumed a lot about what kind of father and husband he'd be (if he sounds American, then he'll act American, right?). On top of that, I believed the stereotype that Europeans are generally more socially liberal than Americans, and made assumptions about his behavior based on that.

When I was confronted with actions that didn't match my expectations, I rationalized the difference. Huge mistake! But, naivety and general ignorance about relationships limited my ability to understand what I was experiencing.

Now, at least, I feel like I fully understand our problems. Unfortunately, I'm still the only one changing my behavior or even thinking about our issues, so we're still stuck. I've told him before that I realize I'm asking for a change in the fundamental way we relate to each other. I had no business getting married when I didn't know yet who I was or what I wanted. Neither did he, but there's no changing that now. We both didn't understand ourselves when we met, and didn't understand each other. Even after realizing this, I didn't think it'd be an insurmountable problem, so long as we were both willing to grow up together. But, that's not happening.

So, I'll continue to wait. I don't foresee myself suddenly becoming happy with him as a spouse, but I'm not putting the kids through a divorce a year after an international move. It's just too much for them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lights,

Are you attracted to him?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Lights,
> 
> Are you attracted to him?


No, I'm not. The other day my mom said she'd watch the kids so we could go out alone "for a romantic dinner," and I immediately felt sick to my stomach. Not from repulsion, but from feeling nervous and trapped. Like, how could I get out of that? What if she brings it up again and I have to follow through? That surprised me.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

It amazes me that he is not anxious about the state of your marriage.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> It amazes me that he is not anxious about the state of your marriage.


I know. He appears to be totally unconcerned. Maybe something's going on under the surface that I don't see or hear about, but it's unlikely. By now, he's probably forgotten that we ever had issues. 

I get really jealous when I see husbands on here who freak out and then take serious action when they hear once what I've told my H 20 times. Mine is just figuring that since he knows I won't divorce him, he can coast on without any effort. Or he's so self-centered that he still doesn't understand that he can't invent my feelings for me. Or both. 

Well to be more kind, there's also an element of him being much more quiet and introverted than me. I don't talk nearly as much to him any more as I used to. We speak a few sentences here and there about the kids, but that's about it. I think he prefers it this way.

Kids. Must run.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

The other thing I haven't mentioned is that we don't sleep in the same bed. It started about 18 months ago, when I had insomnia. After a few hours awake in our bed, I started to get into the king-sized bed my girls share. Snuggling with them made me feel so relaxed, and I'd fall asleep. I think part of the insomnia was that the problems I was having with H made me feel so tense lying next to him.

For the next year I bounced back and forth between the beds. I felt obligated to at least try to sleep in bed with my H, but the insomnia was a recurring problem, and my girls still woke up sometimes at night anyway, so I'd get into bed with them in the middle of the night at least once a week.

Then when we were separated, I slept with the girls most nights. I was so tired that I'd fall asleep at 8 putting them to bed and not wake up for 10 hours. Since then, I've mostly been doing the same thing. H has never mentioned it. About once a month he'll ask if I want to sleep in our bed tonight (which means have sex with him). We still have sex about once a month, which isn't a problem for him. Or if it is, he hasn't said anything.

I can't help but feel like he's finally getting the marriage he always wanted. Just sucks for me that that's the exact opposite of the marriage I want.


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## Morgiana (Oct 18, 2011)

Northernlights, I'm glad to see you've at least been able to put your finger on whats going on in your marriage that is causing you issue. It's a hard spot to be in, especially because of the move, but you'll figure out how to deal with it, you've got a good head on your shoulders


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Northern, just wanted to catch up with your thread.

I did not realise your H was German. Not to be sterotypical, but of course that makes me look at my adopted sister's life. 

She looked after two colicky babies (born just a year apart) and had to get up at 5 am and make his breakfast, pack his lunch, and her schedule revolved around "his" for meals, the house, etc. It was extreme, in my opinion, but that's how he was raised. 
He had no problem expressing that was "woman work" and he would not lift a finger in that regard. His parents were much older, WWII. His Mom hardly ever speaks English, although she can. 

I thought he was an a$$. But at least he was honest about it. They've been in separate bedrooms for 10 yrs now. She has 3 years "left" until the kids are out, then she is gone. Her choice. I could never convince her otherwise. So I just try to be supportive of her choices. I can't say we are close. It's caused a riff between us. Mostly because her kids have problems, due to his extreme nature and lack of involvement. I was mad at her for not doing something for the sake of her kids. I'm glad you ARE doing something.

The rest of it, still strangely mirrors my own life. I'm still not fully kicking the CD habits. I can relate to the "don't love or like him". I don't have kids at home. So I have no excuses. 

I just wanted to comment on the whole "they never bring up the relationship, or lack of sex (once a month if that)".

I never understood that either. But I know exactly what you mean. Except I started saying NO to the once a month sex request. The same way he would respond. Just not bothering, and I'm certainly not bringing it up. He never has either. 
So it went from once a month to never without a word being spoken. 

It doesn't seem like there IS a limit or boundary that they respond to. I often wonder if, when I just move out when he's at work, if even THAT would make him question \ talk. And I remind myself to not care. It's not to make him PAY, it's for me to get a life. It's hard to give up the "make him pay" part of it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You don't want a divorce at present. It's become a dream, like the house people plan for. Why not start planning for it separate your finances now without discussing, and when you have created order for a fair division the time to talk turkey will have arrived.

You can ask your husband when he would like to get divorced. You can propose the schedule that would suit you. You can broach the idea of custody because that is a major sticking point, given that you consider him negligent to the point of being a hazard to their safety.

Emphasize that the status quo can continue until you split. If he objects and says that things will change, say sure, if life gets better, you'll cheer and toast come New Year. But you have expectations and you are not interested in stressing him.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Morgiana said:


> Northernlights, I'm glad to see you've at least been able to put your finger on whats going on in your marriage that is causing you issue. It's a hard spot to be in, especially because of the move, but you'll figure out how to deal with it, you've got a good head on your shoulders


Thank you Morgiana. At least I know that no matter where this goes, I've given it my best shot.

It helps too that I can look back over the last 5 years and know that staying has been the right decision, even though I am no happier with the marriage now than I was then. I'm a much, much stronger person. I understand people and relationships better, and I know how to be a rock for my girls. I've seen friends divorce without doing the hard work first, and then making relationship mistake after relationship mistake while dating, and putting their kids through the ringer all over again. I'm glad that didn't happen with us.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> Northern, just wanted to catch up with your thread.
> 
> I did not realise your H was German. Not to be sterotypical, but of course that makes me look at my adopted sister's life.
> 
> ...



Deejov, I meant to respond to this sooner. This is my first time back to full-time work since having kids, and to be honest, I'm out cold by 9 pm most nights. So pretty much I get home, make dinner, clean up, get the kids ready for bed, read with them, lay down with them while they fall asleep (I love it, it's our cuddle time. My girls are such snugglers), then get myself ready for bed. 

Anyway, I was very interested in what you said about your sister and BIL. Especially the food part! I've said again and again that my husband is very content with the marriage. I think 75% of his happiness comes from the fact that he's well fed. I'm a great cook, I cook German food, I make everything from scratch, and H's meals are always ready on time. I've never messed with his meals to get a point across, because that would be intentionally manipulative, and I just don't want to go there. But, I think that might have been the best way to get his attention. I should have stopped cooking way back when I was first unhappy.

Even then, I'm not sure he would really care. He also likes processed foods, which I don't really allow for meals, so he'd have a field day with chicken nuggets and boxed macaroni and cheese for months before he missed my beef stew.

Ok, bedtime routine time again. More from me eventually!


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## Morgiana (Oct 18, 2011)

@northernlights, I feel for you, I really do. I believe my spouse was happy in the relationship as it was; heck, he got a cook, housekeeper, second income, a primary caretaker for the children, and played video games for 5-8 hours every day after work. What's not to like when you're getting catered too .


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Morgiana said:


> @northernlights, I feel for you, I really do. I believe my spouse was happy in the relationship as it was; heck, he got a cook, housekeeper, second income, a primary caretaker for the children, and played video games for 5-8 hours every day after work. What's not to like when you're getting catered too .


I know, right? One of the things I've learned during my time of personal growth is that I'm a damn good wife!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I know, right? One of the things I've learned during my time of personal growth is that I'm a damn good wife!!


I like German food!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I like German food!


I made a red cabbage and sausage dinner in the crock pot last week that was just delicious! When I'm not so busy, I also make an excellent homemade spaetzle. It's yum!

I have to confess that I'm an awful baker. I like to take delicious recipes and make them healthier by cutting the sugar in half or one third, using whole grain flours (especially oat flour which is really just oatmeal I grind into flour in my coffee grinder), and adding things like mashed fruits. The brownies I made this summer with oatmeal, banana, and 1/3 cup of sugar were truly awful.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I realized something over the last few days. I've taken the things H has done too personally. I have (or, had) such low self-esteem issues that I was letting the way he treated me affect how I feel about myself. It's the flip side of the disordered thinking that told me if I was just a better wife, and tried harder, he'd treat me better. The idea that I was getting the treatment I deserved.

My self esteem is in a much better place. The kind of treatment I want is the kind I want. It appears to differ from the way my H wants to treat his wife. This is unfortunate for sure, but not a reflection on me as a person. Such an obvious idea, and I wouldn't have even believed 6 months ago that it was a lesson I needed to learn. I thought I already knew that. Turns out it takes an awful lot of work to see the delusions one's been operating under. 

Feeling lighter though. I've somehow managed to release a lot of my resentments over the past few months. I didn't notice it until recently. I think I had to mourn, feel some anger, and not rush the process. I was expecting to just snap my fingers and drop them. 

So life is good! Still married, still no noticeable changes in H. Well, he seems even more short-tempered than usual, and I'm not sure what's up with that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> So life is good! Still married, still no noticeable changes in H. Well, he seems even more short-tempered than usual, and I'm not sure what's up with that.


His problem


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> His problem


Every once in a while I'm tempted to talk. Then I remind myself where talking gotten us, and the urge passes. You can't talk yourself out of a situation that you behaved your way into (is that Dr. Phil? Well it's true no matter who it comes from).


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Have you worked out plan for avoiding divorce? He needs to have it spelled out.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Every once in a while I'm tempted to talk. Then I remind myself where talking gotten us, and the urge passes. You can't talk yourself out of a situation that you behaved your way into (is that Dr. Phil? Well it's true no matter who it comes from).


Stephen Covey - but it doesn't make it any less true.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Have you worked out plan for avoiding divorce? He needs to have it spelled out.


I did. I first told him we were on a bad path three years ago. And I distinctly remember someone telling me when our younger daughter was not yet 1 that we had the kind of marriage she envied, and feeling like an utter fraud. Then feeling surprised, because it was the first time I'd realized that things were on a bad track. Then I worked at it on my own for a year, afraid to hurt his feelings by telling him I needed more.

Then we had a talk, and a bunch more talks. Then last winter I laid out what I needed, first on the list being marriage counseling and a three month separation. He came home after a month, and I didn't put my foot down. I can guarantee you he doesn't remember any of what I want or even 50% of what's happened. 

But, specifically, he was supposed to read 7 principles for making marriage work and divorce busters, plus two books on children and discipline, and seek treatment for his auditory and verbal processing disorders. I asked him to continue counseling for the sake of our marriage but didn't clearly tell him this is a non-negotiable. It wouldn't have mattered if I had. 

Bedtime, must run again.

**ok, I'm back. I was going to say, It wouldn't have mattered if I had, because I don't want to threaten a divorce that I am not going to follow through with. Maybe when the kids are bigger, but just absolutely positively not now. He knows it, I've told him. Deep down, I'm finally beginning to suspect that he wants a divorce too, but is too passive to approach the idea in any way but undermining our marriage. I didn't believe that until recently, but it's pretty much the only explanation that makes sense.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

northern, that does make sense. Although the flip side that you have not mentioned is..... if you ever had an affair, or similar thing to cause him disrespect in that way, he would toss you out!

There is no other limit that makes a mark. The rest is collateral damage, for a number of reasons.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> northern, that does make sense. Although the flip side that you have not mentioned is..... if you ever had an affair, or similar thing to cause him disrespect in that way, he would toss you out!
> 
> There is no other limit that makes a mark. The rest is collateral damage, for a number of reasons.


If I was ever tempted to have an affair, I'd initiate the divorce process. But the chances of that are very small. I live in a really, really small town, I already know everyone, and there's no one I'm interested in having sex with. 

Honestly, I'm not sure he would initiate a divorce if I had an affair. This is the man who refused to move to New York City with me three months after we got married, because our apartment wasn't ready yet. I was staying with three single guys!! (One was my very dear childhood friend, but I didn't know his two roommates from Adam). So, he left his new bride 8 hours away with three strange, single men. For a month and a half. He visited on weekends a few times, but that was it.

Perhaps I haven't emphasized enough what a strange person he is...


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Grr, venting here! My SIL is expecting, which is SOOO exciting. I love her dearly, and my brother too (as much as he can be a PITA!). But all the baby-planning talk is dredging up so many unexpected feelings. My SIL is 14 weeks along, and my brother has done the hospital tour with her, been to OB appointments, changed out ALL of the outlets in the house for baby-proof ones, and started researching and buying baby gear. We're similar personalities. 

When I was 14 weeks with our first, my H hadn't even opened a book. To be fair, he wasn't as excited to get pregnant as my brother either. Our first was possibly something of an accident (long story, but the short is I thought we were trying, and H changed his story so many times about whether he was attempting to use withdrawl or not). Regardless of whether she was conceived accidentally or on purpose, he wasn't totally enthusiastic about the pregnancy. So that was disappointing for me, because I thought he was excited to start a family.

Anyway, my brother travels for work, so they were talking about him doing weekend night feedings so SIL could catch-up on some sleep. And my brother was saying she could have all day friday to do whatever she wanted, "like go grocery shopping." Which was a lame joke, but she laughed. Then my H says "yeah she can shop and clean!" and it made me so mad, because he was acting like it was such a joke that she would cook and clean in her "time off" when that's exactly what I did. I never got time for me, and when I did, H would scoff and give me a hard time. 

So I told him, "I'm not okay with you making a joke about the way I live my life," and he got all mad and blamed my brother for making it first and said he was just "going along with it." I told him if my brother had made a racist joke and he had expanded on it in the spirit of "just going along with it," that would also be racist. H got made and said I should know that he doesn't feel that way. I said the joke hurt my feelings and I would like an apology. He continued to make excuses for a while (all the while I was sweeping, ironically, because I still spend the bulk of my free time cooking and cleaning), and finally he gave a begrudging semi-apology (something along the lines of "i'm sorry you took it that way but that's not how I meant it). 

I didn't say anything else, because if he feels pressured into an apology that he doesn't mean, he'll give it half-assed like that, but still think he did nothing wrong, and to me that's the epitome of shutting down communication. Like, he's only interested in placating me, but not understanding why I'm upset or truly trying to take responsibility for his words or actions. Then he writes it off mentally as him being a good guy and me being mean. When things were better between us, and I brought up a situation like this a few days later to playfully needle him and try to make it something we could joke about, he would defend himself and tell me it didn't happen the way I said, gaslighting, lying, blah blah blah... so I've learned that he'll say what he thinks I want to hear to shut down the conversation, and he'll articulate his side to the best of his ability, but he will not address or attempt to understand how I feel. He'll tell me how i should feel based on what he thinks he should have said, but not address how I do feel based on what he did actually say.


Grr. Of course there's no communicating with someone who has no intention of acknowledging what actually happened or is at all concerned with discussing how I feel.

So, getting it out here, or else I'll end up stewing about it all day.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Putting this all in writing really clarifies why he was so ambivalent about the pregnancy and why I was so surprised he wasn't more excited. When I initiated a conversation about when we should start a family, he went along with what I said. I don't think he ever spent time thinking about the family question when I wasn't actively engaging him in a conversation. So he was going along with what I wanted, and I didn't understand that when he didn't initiate conversations or contribute his own ideas to them, he was showing me that he hadn't spent any time thinking about the issue.

Gosh, the idea that actions speak louder than words... well, I can't say I didn't understand it then. There was an extent to which I was willfully ignoring and quieting that little voice raising questions in me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Gosh, the idea that actions speak louder than words... well, I can't say I didn't understand it then. There was an extent to which I was willfully ignoring and quieting that little voice raising questions in me.


That's classic codependence.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> That's classic codependence.


I just re-read my whole thread. I think I need to re-read some Melodie Beattie, now that I have so much more perspective on my own co-dependence.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

As soon as your young child is old enough you will divorce

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I just re-read my whole thread. I think I need to re-read some Melodie Beattie, now that I have so much more perspective on my own co-dependence.


Keep posting and share your insights as you go through it.

I'm battling my own today.

Earlier this week, I heard how much time she wanted to spend together this weekend.

Uh-huh


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> As soon as your young child is old enough you will divorce
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Probably. But I have friends who've divorced, moved in with the next guy, combined all the kids to one big family, and then broken up again. Thanks to the time I've spent working on me and TAM, I know that won't happen to me and my girls. 

Here's another secret. I've realized that confessing them here is really freeing. They just stop eating at me for some magical reason. I'm afraid that if H does indeed have dementia, and it's diagnosed right around the time that I am actually ready to leave, then people will think that I'm bailing on him because of that and that I'm a terrible person. Conversely, I'm afraid that that fear will keep me with him. Or that my co-dependent side will kick up and I'll feel too guilty to leave him.

I don't even think it's dementia anymore. I think all the "I forgot"s were a combination of gaslighting and just not caring enough in the first place to give me thoughtful communication. When you just blurt out whatever nonsense comes into your head, it's easy to forget it. And when you're not paying attention in the first place to what you're wife is saying, or really just don't give a sh!t, then it's easy to forget.

Another secret I'm keeping is that I'm carrying around a tremendous amount of guilt for giving my kids a father with so many neurological problems (dyslexia, auditory processing disorder, general processing disorder, etc). I'm afraid their lives will be harder than they need to be because I didn't do the best job finding a father for them that I could have. I'm fully aware that this is irrational, that I love them exactly the way they are and wouldn't change a thing about them even if I could. But I still feel guilt. 

And my biggest one is that the neurological testing revealed that H's IQ is significantly lower than mine. I've suspected this since we were dating, but I always told myself that other people thought he was smart, and he was just a different kind of smart from me, and this wasn't an issue. Confessing this makes me afraid everyone here will think that I think I'm better than him because of this, but it's not that. It's just a difference. But it gets in the way of relating on the level that I always wished my husband and I could relate on.
Or maybe it doesn't... maybe the issue is not at all IQ, just the emotional wall. I don't know.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Keep posting and share your insights as you go through it.
> 
> I'm battling my own today.
> 
> ...


Too much or too little?

I hope a lovely fall hike was involved!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Too much or too little?
> 
> I hope a lovely fall hike was involved!


Yeah, right.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yeah, right.


Pumpkins? 

Pumpkin pie? Pumpkin lattes?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Also, I am proud of myself for doing less these days. Like right now, I'm sittin' here in the family room and H is getting the girls bedtime snacks. A year ago, I'd be so on top of everything and H would be doing nothing. Today, I needed to put my feet up, so I just didn't do anything. I didn't tell H to get them snacks, I just stayed out. He's their dad, he can figure it out. And the girls are eating! I'm not sure if he got them something or they got it themselves, but who cares? 

Last year, I thought I had to be doing _everything_ all the time or else I wouldn't be justified in feeling used. Now I know that my feelings don't need justification. I don't need to be doing 95% of the work to H's 5% to protest the imbalance. 

I would actually work to perpetuate the cycle that I hated so that I could justify my own feelings to myself! That's messed up! And ridiculously counter productive!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Pumpkins?
> 
> Pumpkin pie? Pumpkin lattes?


Yeah, right.

Sitting here.

Going to watch football.

Is she "too busy with important things" to worry about me?

Likely.

It's what it is.

I'm sure you understand.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It's what it is.
> 
> I'm sure you understand.


I do. 

Her important things didn't, by chance, turn out to be making you buffalo wings, did they? Because that would be nice.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I do.
> 
> Her important things didn't, by chance, turn out to be making you buffalo wings, did they? Because that would be nice.


No, she cancelled - as I suspected.

I called her on it.

Yet another stalemate... sigh.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> No, she cancelled - as I suspected.
> 
> I called her on it.
> 
> Yet another stalemate... sigh.


Please tell me you told her you weren't OK with that?!!!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Stress!!!!

Before I found TAM, I read other websites and articles online, and had decided that I had caused a parent-child dynamic by taking on too many tasks. I made a conscious effort to surrender some things to H, without checking up on him, to demonstrate my trust in him. At this point I _did_ trust him still, and I liked this advice because I had too much on my plate anyway.

So first I got deported, because I trusted him to understand the stuff about my visa. And now I have a big tax bill, with more coming.

F*ck. I let him open my IRA account, and for the past 3 or 4 years we've been writing off 5k per year. Except my IRA isn't an IRA at all, it's just a savings account. A savings account that isn't invested.

I realized this in April when we were separated, and I knew I had to go over everything he'd done with a fine-tooth comb, because so much of it was in shambles. I was just kind of hoping that the IRS wouldn't notice... f*ck f*ck f*ck. So far I've only gotten a bill for 2012, but I'm afraid the bills for 2011 and 2010 are coming, alone with fines... Add to that the interest I've missed out on accruing, and we're talking a problem that can easily hit 10k or more.

I am not okay with that!!!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Please tell me you told her you weren't OK with that?!!!


We finally had a chance to discuss it today.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> We finally had a chance to discuss it today.


How did it go?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> How did it go?


It went fairly well. There was the initial angst, but we eventually connected on a few things.

Flushing the pipes helps. And, if you stay @50k, you can get an idea of what to do to make things better going forward - and to protect yourself at the same time.

Ends up being largely the same thing.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

2galsmom said:


> Wait. You thought you had an IRA but it is not an IRA? Was it a ROTH IRA? Those function differently than traditional IRAs. He could have set up one of these and was technically not lying. You need copies of your tax returns OP. That information is filed every year. If you removed $ from an IRA there will be penalties.
> 
> FYI a savings account that wasn't invested is better than one invested poorly where you LOST your money. So stay positive.
> 
> Good luck!


It was just a personal savings account.

But you're right! It could have gone into mutual funds and decreased in value. Our other mutual funds aren't doing very much anyway. Also, I talked to a woman at the bank and she thinks that if my tax guy files amended returns for me, I won't get hit with any penalties. So all and all, a hassle but probably won't cost me more than 3k.


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## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

Okay, seriously, this thread really hits home for me. I've been in the infidelity forum since I joined. Yesterday I wished that I could find someone who's in a situation that would match mine so I could learn. Lo and behold, I come to this section and find this!

northernlights, we have so many things in common, it's a little uncanny. I've been a stay at home mom for 8 years, have two wonderful children. I'm a writer, working on my second novel. 

I'm married to a passive aggressive and I am codependent. I have no idea how to get over the fear of setting boundaries for myself. I'm terrified of his anger, though he has never hit me. Over the years, he constantly would say he'd do something but never follow through. He'd always forget things (but not things that mattered to him). I hate our dynamic, but I was prepared to simply accept things as they were until I found him cheating. That has blown everything out of the water. Now I feel like maybe I do deserve some happiness. I wonder why I put up with this for so long. I've been doing a lot of reading and I can see the patterns that I've learned from my own parents. 

Anyway, I'm really happy I stumbled on this thread! And if you ever want to chat about writing, or anything else, pm me any time.


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

Northernlights and wideawake, there are others. Your story is how my story began. Pretty much to a T.

Take quiet action. QUIET action to give yourself options. Take care of yourself first. They have already betrayed you and hurt you, it is fine to help yourself.

Get copies of your financial statements and put a stash of money away in case you have to retain a lawyer. Start talking to HEALTHY people that will not shame you into staying in your marriage, people who value the marriage over the individual as well as people who value you.

If you want to work on your marriage, so be it, that is your choice but when you go into counseling do not go into it with the mindset that I NEED this man and I NEED this relationship or you will make irrational choices. You do not need either the man nor the relationship. Believe it. If he is willing to work on it with you and you choose to stay in the relationship do so out of desire not need and not out of fear of the unknown of leaving him and having to fend for yourself.

You both deserve happiness.

At the end of the day, these men have lied to you both and betrayed you. How could you proceed with trust and put your future into their hands? Do not.


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## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

Thanks 2galsmom! It's been very confusing for me, since DDay has snapped him out of his fantasy land. He's working so hard to change. He goes to 12 step meetings to get all of his addictions under control. He speaks to his sponsor daily. I barely see him because he's busy trying to get better.
There are times when I wish he wouldn't have decided to try and made the decision easier for me. Now I feel stuck and don't know what to do. But I'm realizing that it's another part of my codependency; I want him to make the decision because it's too difficult for me to do what would make me happy. I keep having to replace the focus on me and try to figure out what I want, regardless of what he's doing.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

now_awake said:


> But I'm realizing that it's another part of my codependency; I want him to make the decision because it's too difficult for me to do what would make me happy. I keep having to replace the focus on me and try to figure out what I want, regardless of what he's doing.


For 12 years, all of the conversations about "us" that I'd try to have would end up being about him. Why he does what he does, how his parents and upbringing affected who he is. Every single time. I'd go into a conversation determined to communicate something about myself, and it'd end up being an hour long conversation about him. And I spent SO MUCH TIME wondering _why_ he treats me the way he does, and w_hat is the explanation_ for all his forgetting... I don't care any more. It's so liberating. I'm totally focused on myself.

I think we end up with types that are more narcissistic than the average person. We're the codependents who want to talk and think and act based on another person, and we marry narcissists who also want to talk and think and act on their own interests all the time. 

Making relationship decisions that are in my own best interests is hard. But at least now, it's hard because I have a healthy investment in what's best for my girls, and not because I'm more worried about what my H feels than what I feel. 

I totally understand how you feel about your H doing the right think in seeking therapy, too. For a long time I was worried that if H did improve, and I still didn't want to be with him, I'd be the bad wife and mother. But that's not what it's about. You don't need anyone else's permission or approval to leave the relationship. And, it's better for the kids if he's the healthiest dad he could be.

Must run!


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

Then stop being a codependent. You go now northernlights and make decisions based on what is good for you. It is funny how people will do things for their children that they will not do for themselves, but in the end it will make all the difference for the children.

Good luck now awake, there is a whole world waiting for you. I wish both of you great success.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you 2galsmom. I'm working on it! I think the big hurdle at this point is that I still don't trust him to be alone with the kids. I don't want to divorce until they're safe on overnights with him. That and keeping the house on just my salary would be impossible. In a few years I'll be able to do it, but not right away. So realistically I'm thinking I'm in this for about three more years before I can file.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

2galsmom said:


> Keep working, keep money separate and keep your eyes open and I hope the Universe helps you and your children.


I can't help but wonder if the 15k that's in a regular account instead of locked away in an IRA is a sign of sorts...

Do you have your story somewhere? I'd like to read it.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

So, here's something interesting. I have vented a lot to my poor mom, and I've complained here about her not being 100% my cheerleader immediately all the time, even though I'm fully aware that I learned a lot of my problematic behaviors through her example. I've also told her about my successes in putting up boundaries and my decision to take care of myself instead of relying on H. 

Well, my mom has started putting up boundaries with my dad! Go mom!! Their relationship has involved her placating him a great deal of the time, giving in on key decisions to keep the peace, etc. I'm so proud of her! And my dad too, who might just prove that you can indeed teach an old dog new tricks, because when she stood up for herself, he said ok. We'll see if his actions match his words, but I think there's a good chance they will. I think seeing his daughters become adults has taught him more about women's equality than anything else in his life. Better late than never, right?

Busting out of old family roles is hard for everyone, but it's great for growth. Who knew that TAM could end up reaching so far into my life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> So, here's something interesting. I have vented a lot to my poor mom, and I've complained here about her not being 100% my cheerleader immediately all the time, even though I'm fully aware that I learned a lot of my problematic behaviors through her example. I've also told her about my successes in putting up boundaries and my decision to take care of myself instead of relying on H.
> 
> Well, my mom has started putting up boundaries with my dad! Go mom!! Their relationship has involved her placating him a great deal of the time, giving in on key decisions to keep the peace, etc. I'm so proud of her! And my dad too, who might just prove that you can indeed teach an old dog new tricks, because when she stood up for herself, he said ok. We'll see if his actions match his words, but I think there's a good chance they will. I think seeing his daughters become adults has taught him more about women's equality than anything else in his life. Better late than never, right?
> 
> Busting out of old family roles is hard for everyone, but it's great for growth. Who knew that TAM could end up reaching so far into my life.


Smiling here.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Glad to hear that!
My MIL has seemingly STOPPED giving my H money. We had a few heated discussions about it. She has either gotten mad enough at his stupidity with money, or the well ran dry, or she has chosen to "let him go" at the age of 43 after all. !!

The (only) bonus I've seen from learning boundaries has been every OTHER relationships outside of the one it was intended to improve. I'll take what I can get. Happy happy


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Glad to hear that!
> My MIL has seemingly STOPPED giving my H money. We had a few heated discussions about it. She has either gotten mad enough at his stupidity with money, or the well ran dry, or she has chosen to "let him go" at the age of 43 after all. !!
> 
> The (only) bonus I've seen from learning boundaries has been every OTHER relationships outside of the one it was intended to improve. I'll take what I can get. Happy happy


It wasn't intended to improve your relationship with him.

It was intended to improve your relationship with you.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

It has.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> It has.


Smiling here


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I love it Deejov!

I'm really feeling the benefits of staying at 50,000 feet in my other relationships. Like, I can totally see now how my mother wasn't criticizing or rejecting me because she didn't immediately take my side in my marital issues. She was responding with respect to her own issues. So obvious, and I've read about that idea hundreds of time in my adult life, but I didn't truly _know_ it until very recently. I've been co-dependent on other people, not just my H! It's a universal personality trait, and not limited to just my marriage. 

It's like I've had this total breakthrough, where I don't need that validation from even my mother any more (and she was the last one that I had to de-enmesh myself from emotionally.) We're close and I love her dearly, and I don't like using the word "detach" even though that's what I mean here (just because detach carries a connotation of disinterest/disengagement for me, but emotionally we're closer than ever. Just in a healthier way).

Inner peace and calm. Even in the face of a visit from the in-laws (who are as batty as ever! When I have more time, I'll tell some stories for everyone's entertainment


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Welcome to the "other side".
Blissfully peaceful people, living with dysfunctional spouses.

People think I am NUTS when I say "If I had to... I could live with almost anything, except physical violence. I can be happy, despite all of it".

I also found I didn't really truly GROW until I stepped back from some relatives that were doing what they knew how.. but not good for me. It's felt very freeing


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

NL, your sitch sounds so much like mine. I have a question for you (it's one I'm working on for myself too.) 

What does "want to make this work" look like to you? It's easy to paint an image of what a healthy M would look like to you, but I think you realize that's probably never going to happen, at least not with your current H. So within the constraints of the reality of the circumstances as they are, what is "make it work?"


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi there DaytoDay, I'm sorry my situation is similar to yours. 

That's a question I haven't thought about it almost a year, to be honest. When I started this thread, I still hoped that we could wind up happily ever after. Now, I think what we're living is as good as I can hope for. I can't describe the situation as roommates/co-parents, because H does so little of the parenting. So making it work now means that we co-exist together, share bill paying, and pretty much live like roommates. But there never was any kind of team decision making, so really things are very much like they were before. I've stopped trying to be superwoman and bend over backwards to make H happy, but I'm not sure he's even noticed. I still cook, so that's all he really cares about. He's probably forgotten that I'm not happy with the relationship. He certainly never talks about it, and I'm done bringing it up.

What are things like at your place?


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Sorry to hear that NL, though frankly, I think that might be an improvement over my current sitch. At this point, I look forward to the time when we can just accept things as they are and stop "trying to make it work." We're still in the conflict stage, still trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I believe it's much like you said, that we're just incompatible. H is very good about _talking_ a good game, but he never follows through, so I simply don't buy into his pitch anymore. Unfortunately, that sort of sets him off because it always worked before, but now it's not getting him the response he wants. But instead of getting to the point of realizing he's actually going to have to change what he's always been committing to, he just "sells" harder.

I don't see any future for us. I feel like it's just a matter of time.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

My H has never really tried to work on things, or even participate in a discussion about us, so him dropping the issue is status quo. If, at this point, he wanted to work on things by talking about it, I'd be beyond frustrated too. There's certainly a place for discussion, but when the issues are out in the open, action is the only way to fix things. Maybe you can spell out to your H that you need 3 months (or whatever) to not talk about the issues, and just let each of your actions speak for you. 

Just this morning I was lying in bed for a few minutes (well, I'd already gotten up to let the dogs out, like I do every morning, but I was _back_ in bed). And I suddenly remembered how badly I'd needed to sleep in a few years back, and how H had finally, finally agreed to watch the kids in the morning so I could sleep, but then had woken me up 3 times to ask me how to make pancakes. I've forgiven it, but I'm far enough out from all that now to realize that the way he acted has had the consequence of changing my feelings for him. I found this quote the other day, and it sums up where we are perfectly:

“Every time we go into a committed relationship, the one question we’re asking each other is, ‘Will you be there for me?’” she said. “And in order to have that really deep positive attitude, one has to have experienced the partner being there for them in very significant ways, over and over again. It doesn’t mean the person won’t mess up at a particular time, it doesn’t mean that our partner won’t even hurt us, won’t do something pretty awful. But bottom line is that if a partner is not there for us over and over and over again, it’s impossible to sustain that deep positive feeling."

It's from this article: Science Study: On Marriage, Listen To That Little Voice In Your Head | CommonHealth


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

I love that quote that you posted! It's so true, and exactly how I feel. My H has simply never been there for me. Whether it was putting his kids/siblings/friends before me, or putting his interests before mine, or employing dishonesty to cover up something he was doing that he knew I wouldn't approve of. Honestly, at this point, I don't even consider him to be a friend anymore.

Just very recently, like in the last day or two, I've had a feeling settle over me like I've never had before. I'm not angry nor bitter nor resentful about the things he's done. It's sort of just an acceptance that this is simply who he is. I believe his behavior isn't personal, because he probably would have done the same thing to anyone who was his W. But he is who/what he is and it's not likely to change. Whether you consider our relationship incompatible or dysfunctional, it simply doesn't work. And it doesn't work to such a degree that I consider it abusive. I keep thinking about the dog I had to put to sleep years ago, because it would randomly bite people. And I don't mean "nip," I mean draw blood and leave holes. I finally realized I needed to put her down, I couldn't wait until she mauled one of the neighborhood children. It's not because I didn't love her and desperately want it to be different, but it just was.

As I'm nearing my 50th birthday, and my son keeps practicing the song "100 years" on the piano, I feel like I'm finally realizing that I have a limited time on this earth and how I spend the rest of it is up to me. No one will advocate for me more than I should. As I was getting ready to call a counselor to discuss our most recent incident, it occurred to me that I don't need someone else to validate the fact that *I* find the incident unacceptable, that *I* find this relationship unacceptable. Besides, even if they agreed with me, it wouldn't change anything with H and I'd still be exactly where I was before then. So I opted out of the counseling. 

Instead, I'm going to start being the me I want to be. Not even the me I used to be, because I've addressed enough of my own problems that I don't care to go back to that. Besides, _that_ person is the one that got me into this situation in the first place! There are parts that I'll resurrect, but I'm looking to be something new, something better.

I'm going to stall on D'g for a while, because like you, I'd still like to provide a single home for our S. Besides, it's not like I'm dying to go out and find another relationship. I don't see myself ever M'g again. I'm a bit concerned about how deceived I was regarding my current H, and no one would believe of him the things I could share. So I don't know that I could trust someone that much again anyway.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

LOL, just read this quote from KathyBatesel:


> But I hope you'll learn to see that when it comes to making good choices, you need to put your marriage ahead of your own comfort if you want it to last. If you don't act in a way that protects your marriage but does protect you, at some point your husband will decide to protect himself instead of the marriage, too. That typically means a divorce.


That's exactly right, only gender-reversed for me. I think the feeling that has come over me is simply that I've finally decided to start protecting myself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> My H has never really tried to work on things, or even participate in a discussion about us, so him dropping the issue is status quo. If, at this point, he wanted to work on things by talking about it, I'd be beyond frustrated too. There's certainly a place for discussion, but when the issues are out in the open, action is the only way to fix things. Maybe you can spell out to your H that you need 3 months (or whatever) to not talk about the issues, and just let each of your actions speak for you.
> 
> Just this morning I was lying in bed for a few minutes (well, I'd already gotten up to let the dogs out, like I do every morning, but I was _back_ in bed). And I suddenly remembered how badly I'd needed to sleep in a few years back, and how H had finally, finally agreed to watch the kids in the morning so I could sleep, but then had woken me up 3 times to ask me how to make pancakes. I've forgiven it, but I'm far enough out from all that now to realize that the way he acted has had the consequence of changing my feelings for him. I found this quote the other day, and it sums up where we are perfectly:
> 
> ...


The idea that you can be an intimate partner with someone who won't hurt you is borderline insane.

It's not possible.

Yet, we also need to realize that "talking ourselves into things" isn't good policy either.

That quickly becomes enabling when we don't get our way.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

DaytoDay said:


> I'm a bit concerned about how deceived I was regarding my current H, and no one would believe of him the things I could share. So I don't know that I could trust someone that much again anyway.


I totally understand this feeling. I used to worry that if we did divorce, and people asked why, they'd never believe me, because what went on behind closed doors was so different from what they'd seen (and so bizarre some of the times). Fortunately, I don't care about that any more.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I totally understand this feeling. I used to worry that if we did divorce, and people asked why, they'd never believe me, because what went on behind closed doors was so different from what they'd seen (and so bizarre some of the times). Fortunately, I don't care about that any more.



I think anyone with brains would realize that you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. My ex was two different people as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I totally understand this feeling. I used to worry that if we did divorce, and people asked why, they'd never believe me, because what went on behind closed doors was so different from what they'd seen (and so bizarre some of the times). Fortunately, I don't care about that any more.


Sounds like you've arrived.

There really are no cosmic scorecards for vindication


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like you've arrived.
> 
> There really are no cosmic scorecards for vindication


I've also finally (_finally_) truly understood that he has, consistently, shown me who he is. From the very beginning, he has been the same person. So much of my frustration and anger has stemmed from the fact that I've spent all of this energy shadowboxing with the man I pretended he was. Unfortunately, the real H still, as always, wants nothing to do with an intimate adult relationship. 

Oh well! Maybe I can be happy with a guy like that? Who knows, but I'll give at least a year to trying. I still don't want to divorce, and I'm just not the kind of person who can do nothing when faced with a problem… Lol, I'm also the kind of person who's too stubborn to throw in the towel, even when faced with failure after failure after failure (if you don't believe me, I can tell you all about the veggie garden I've kept for the past 4 years. Ha!)


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

trigger, trigger, trigger. I got home from work today and the girls, 8 and 5, were home alone. One of the dogs had disappeared (he sometimes goes wandering), and H had gone looking for him.

Now, I know there's no hard and fast rule on leaving kids home alone, and the 8 year old is very responsible. But the 5 year old is nothing short of a maniac, and the 8 year old is pretty easily frightened. H had gone about a quarter of a mile away, and we live in the woods. The thing is though, my dad was home next door, and he could have easily taken the girls there or asked my dad to come over if he didn't want to take them with him while he looked for the dog. We live in the woods, but my dad is only 200 feet away. There's a neighbor on the other side too, and then it's about a quarter of a mile to the next occupied house (two others closer are summer people). We live on a private road.

Ugh. This is not the first time he's left them alone, nor anywhere near his most neglectful behavior. But, it's stressful for me. 

Does this mean I should put them into a formal after school care program for days I'll be home late? (I had physical therapy today). Is this not that big of a deal? He was only gone for about 15 minutes... Should I just forget it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> trigger, trigger, trigger. I got home from work today and the girls, 8 and 5, were home alone. One of the dogs had disappeared (he sometimes goes wandering), and H had gone looking for him.
> 
> Now, I know there's no hard and fast rule on leaving kids home alone, and the 8 year old is very responsible. But the 5 year old is nothing short of a maniac, and the 8 year old is pretty easily frightened. H had gone about a quarter of a mile away, and we live in the woods. The thing is though, my dad was home next door, and he could have easily taken the girls there or asked my dad to come over if he didn't want to take them with him while he looked for the dog. We live in the woods, but my dad is only 200 feet away. There's a neighbor on the other side too, and then it's about a quarter of a mile to the next occupied house (two others closer are summer people). We live on a private road.
> 
> ...


Tell him you're not ok with it.

If he asks what he "should have" done, mention taking them to your father's place.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I said that. He tried to explain that it was more important that he go looking for the dog. I told him that with my dad right there, there's no good excuse for leaving them. He made more justifications (no time, getting dark). I said I'd rather not get into why he made the choice he made (I've learned that that's his way of taking me off track and turning the conversation into a convoluted mess that leaves me wondering what just happened), just that unless he wanted to try to convince me that the girls are old enough to be left home alone, he needs to find someone to supervise if he leaves them.

This is exactly why I'm still married. I still don't feel comfortable when he supervises them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I messed up. H has been especially grumpy for a while now, and I wanted to fix it. I thought more sex should work (why would I even think that? Sex has never worked on anything with us), so we had sex, he's still grumpy, and I felt used.

D'oh. What is it you call that Conrad, a covert contract? I give you sex, you act nicer to everyone, no words exchanged? Well, it still doesn't work, just in case anyone else was wondering.

Other than that, same old same old here. Keeping busy, trying to be the exciting, attractive wife, bringing my A game every day. H hasn't said a word about anything, actions are the same. No affection, no warmth, no concern for me. He really just seems to want a roommate/housekeeper/cook who has sex with him once in a while. He has no interest in being who I want him to be. I'm not yet past the resentments enough to give happiness with the real him a try, but I think I will in 2014. As long as nothing else piles up in the meanwhile.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I messed up. H has been especially grumpy for a while now, and I wanted to fix it. I thought more sex should work (why would I even think that? Sex has never worked on anything with us), so we had sex, he's still grumpy, and I felt used.
> 
> D'oh. What is it you call that Conrad, a covert contract? I give you sex, you act nicer to everyone, no words exchanged? Well, it still doesn't work, just in case anyone else was wondering.
> 
> Other than that, same old same old here. Keeping busy, trying to be the exciting, attractive wife, bringing my A game every day. H hasn't said a word about anything, actions are the same. No affection, no warmth, no concern for me. He really just seems to want a roommate/housekeeper/cook who has sex with him once in a while. He has no interest in being who I want him to be. I'm not yet past the resentments enough to give happiness with the real him a try, but I think I will in 2014. As long as nothing else piles up in the meanwhile.


Covert contract is the nice term for it


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Covert contract is the nice term for it


Isn't it a little bit nicer when it involves sex? Maybe I should call this on a coital contract.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Isn't it a little bit nicer when it involves sex? Maybe I should call this on a coital contract.


Laughing at yourself is the best medicine

Happy New Year girl.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Laughing at yourself is the best medicine
> 
> Happy New Year girl.


Happy New Year to you too! Hm, maybe we need a resolutions thread?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Happy New Year to you too! Hm, maybe we need a resolutions thread?


Start one, I'll be there.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Last night was rough. Over Christmas vacation, I was having lunch with one of my childhood friends, the girls, and my mom. Friend was going though my wallet (I was making him leave the entire tip because the restaurant can't put tips on credit cards, and he didn't believe I had no cash. All good-naturedly), and he found the MC's card. I quickly took my wallet back and hoped he didn't have a chance to read it, but while we were getting our coats on he asked me what was going on. I snapped at him to not ask about it. I didn't mean to, it just came out of my mouth like that. But I was kind of shaken up thinking it could come up like that, unexpectedly over lunch, with my mom and girls around. My mom knows everything, but still, we don't talk about it. Ever.

So I helped my little one with her coat and then went back to apologize for my tone. He said it was no big deal. In the parking lot he told me to call if I needed to talk.

Last night I emailed him a quick sum of what's been going on. He's stunned. It's hard for me to tell even my closest friends (this guy and I have been friends for like, 30 years. Our parents are best friends too. His whole family spent christmas day with mine. They're closer to me than most of my own family, so telling this guy is like telling a brother). Anyway, it was hard because it did reinforce the fear that people will be so surprised and will probably ask what happened (though, he didn't), just because that's a natural human response. 

It's also hard because telling someone makes me think about it more, and I ended up crying for an hour last night. Feeling torn between letting my self off the hook for grieving, which is totally normal, and not being further along emotionally by this point. 

I dunno, maybe I needed that too. I still struggle with allowing myself to have emotions and feel sad, but a good hour-long cry is better for the soul than letting it out a bit at a time over the course of weeks, right? Like, ripping off the band-aid. I did feel immensely better this morning (which came in handy because I've been up since 6 am with a sick dog).

For a bit I was feeling like I haven't made much progress if I'm so upset still over how other people might react if I got divorced. But at the same time, the fact is that I genuinely and deeply love so many people in my life, and that love and intimacy does create an opportunity for them to hurt me by rejecting my feelings and experience (were they to, not many have), but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's probably my best quality.

Well, look at me, talking all this time about myself and my feelings! At least there's that!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Last night was rough. Over Christmas vacation, I was having lunch with one of my childhood friends, the girls, and my mom. Friend was going though my wallet (I was making him leave the entire tip because the restaurant can't put tips on credit cards, and he didn't believe I had no cash. All good-naturedly), and he found the MC's card. I quickly took my wallet back and hoped he didn't have a chance to read it, but while we were getting our coats on he asked me what was going on. I snapped at him to not ask about it. I didn't mean to, it just came out of my mouth like that. But I was kind of shaken up thinking it could come up like that, unexpectedly over lunch, with my mom and girls around. My mom knows everything, but still, we don't talk about it. Ever.
> 
> So I helped my little one with her coat and then went back to apologize for my tone. He said it was no big deal. In the parking lot he told me to call if I needed to talk.
> 
> ...


The fear you felt is a psychological trailhead.

Ruminate over why it's so important that others think well of you both.

Is it more important than you thinking well of you?

If so, where did that originate in your life?

What did your parents teach you?

When you say your mom and you never discuss it. I'm not sure how healthy that sounds. Was that the norm when there was a traumatic situation?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> The fear you felt is a psychological trailhead.
> 
> Ruminate over why it's so important that others think well of you both.
> 
> ...



My mom had a nervous breakdown when I was a junior in high school. It was hard, of course, and she went through a period of blaming things on me (dinner didn't turn out right? Well, we know who's fault that is), but also making me her biggest confidante (asking if people were following her, if she was dying and everyone knew it but her).

It was never discussed. Never. No therapy for me or for her. Ignore it, pretend it's not happening, rugsweep. My father very firmly believes that you have full control over what you let affect you, and other people's actions can't hurt you if you don't let them. While I agree in theory that that's the healthiest, ideal way to live, it didn't work for me at 15. All I learned was that there's nothing useful in feeling bad feelings, and if I didn't shut all that out, it was my own fault.

As far as what other people think, it's a combination of still worrying about causing them hurt by letting them know about my hurt (though intellectually, I know most people don't feel other people's feelings like I do), and worrying that everyone will tell me I'm making the wrong decision, and I'll have to distance myself from much of my family. They're predominantly very traditional Catholics. No one on my entire enormous father's side of the family has ever divorced.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> No one on my entire enormous father's side of the family has ever divorced.


This is it, isn't it?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> This is it, isn't it?


It is, more than anything else. It could kill my 90 year old grandparents. My favorite uncle would be disappointed, I think. If I told him absolutely everything he might not. Actually once I told him about the infrequent sex, he'd understand that nobody could live like this.  

Still, it's the girls more than anything else. Of course, if I didn't have kids, the family wouldn't care so much about a divorce either. I think it's ideal for the kids to stay together, since we rarely fight and when we do it's a calm discussion.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I need honest feedback here.

Last night, I was putting away the clean dishes while the girls were eating one last snack before bed (bananas). My hand was wet from one of the glasses so I gave it a shake and SMACKED it on the edge of the countertop. HOLY PAIN! And I cursed in front of the girls, which I shouldn't have, but it just hurt SO BAD. No bleeding though, so that was good. There's a blizzard here in the northeast in case you haven't heard, and getting to the hospital would have been nearly impossible. 

I had to sit for a minute though, because I couldn't use my hand anyway, and H started calling the girls upstairs to brush teeth. The older one wanted to stay with me, and H told her, "go upstairs, Mom's fine." She stood half way in between us and didn't leave, and H started to get mad at her. I said, "come give me a hug and I'll feel better, then you can go upstairs," and she did. She's also hit her hand this morning playing Wii, so we commiserated (clumsiness runs in the family!). She's always been super empathetic, so her reaction was totally normal for her.

Finally the pain lessened (though even my wrist still hurts today, not sure if that's just from smacking the nerves like that, or if I also hurt my wrist. I wouldn't put it past me), and I went upstairs to tuck them in. I was brushing my teeth with them when older daughter said to me, "Papa doesn't love you very much. He didn't care at all that you'd gotten hurt."



I wasn't sure what to say. I didn't want to gaslight her obviously, and she'd drawn a valid conclusion from what she saw, and what's she's seen a hundred times before. He didn't come over to me, look at my hand, pat my back. He was just irritated at me for being an idiot and smacking my hand.

So I said, "well he doesn't show live like we do, you and I are more affectionate and nurturing." 

But, just, GRR. How many times has he rolled his eyes after she was injured (because he obviously thought she was overreacting. Yes, kids cry even when the injury is relatively mild. It's just one of those things kids do!). Has she felt unloved too? And even if she hasn't, how bad is it that she looks at our interaction and decides he doesn't love me? How much has she noticed that I try and try and give and give, and settle for so little in return.

Ugh. You all know I'm here for the kids, and I've been of the opinion that their relationships with their father are more important than what they see between us, but for the first time, I'm seriously reconsidering. 

What do you guys think? Bad, or not that bad?


(One plus at least is that I'm glad she could speak freely to me. When I was a kid I would have gotten yelled at for saying something like that, and I feel good that I've created a relationship where both of them feel safe saying things like this.)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> He just ignores my boundaries.
> 
> Like, ok, here's an example that may sound trivial but it's important to me. When we walk somewhere, H won't walk next to me, whether or not the kids are with us. He walks by himself, 10 feet in front of me or us. I've told him for years now that I don't like that. It makes me feel devalued. He says, "Ok, I'll walk with you." and then continues to walk 10 feet in front of me. If I walk faster, he walks faster. It's ridiculous! And crazy making!


I'm catching up, and I know this is old, but I just wanted to pop in before I forget this.

A boundary is what you won't put up with. A consequence is what YOU change if he ignores your boundary. The correct consequence in this case is to stop walking with him. AT ALL. You leave with the kids and tell him where you are going and tell him he's free to meet you there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And another. It's clear that - as least by May - you haven't/hadn't really understood what consequences means.


northernlights said:


> I'm afraid that if I go down the road of consequences for crossing boundaries, I'll be mothering him.


A consequence isn't something you do TO HIM. It's what you do TO PROTECT YOURSELF. It has NOTHING to do with him and, frankly, you shouldn't give him a moment's more thought once you enact the consequence. Because you're too busy taking care of the life you want to live in that specific instance. He is no longer a factor in that particular action, like walking, because your consequence has been to remove him from your instances of walking so you are no longer hurt.

Ok, back to reading.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

More consequence talk. Ignore this if you've already figured it out.


northernlights said:


> More observing. I've noticed that when I state a boundary, H reacts with victimhood.
> 
> Wow, what a revelation! I am not responsible for his reaction to my healthy boundaries!!
> 
> I still feel really bad when he acts injured, of course. I would love to say something like, "I'm sorry you feel hurt, but this is what I need for a healthy relationship"


Instead, how about "this consequence is a direct result of YOUR choice. If you don't like the consequence, don't make that choice again. No skin off my nose."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> This is it. I just don't know.
> 
> There is something very fundamentally not right about my husband. I'm not sure if it's early onset dementia, or if he's extremely self-absorbed, or if he's delusional or a pathological liar, or what. We only had 4 meetings with our MC, and at our last one I told her that I really needed to understand WHY everything that had happened had happened if I was going to move forward. She told me she didn't know.
> 
> Cognitive testing is due to be repeated in about 6 months. That will clarify whether he's declining or whether the assorted processing disorders are the extent of the neurological problems.


Don't know if this has come up yet, but my guess is that he's on the autism spectrum.

Could your husband be autistic? Samantha and Andy Puleston from Devon and Joanna and Nick Lewis from Coventry open up about Asperger's | Mail Online

http://autismontario.novosolutions.net/redirfile.asp?id=161&SID=
Autism / Asperger's Quiz


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> That kind of compromise was what I was going for when I asked him to just tell me when he moved something, but he didn't do it, so I have no reason to expect he'll actually put things in the agreed-upon spot.


Consequence: keep them in your own spot, locked away. Buy a little mobile locker or something, and keep the key on you at all times. Probably not a bad idea anyway, with the kids.



northernlights said:


> He won't even stop going through my purse and throwing things out...


Consequence: keep your purse where he can't get it. In that mobile locker, maybe.

YOUR actions, when he does something you don't like. NOT asking HIM to do something differently.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Now, I think what we're living is as good as I can hope for. I can't describe the situation as roommates/co-parents, because H does so little of the parenting.


Stopping again to comment. You say you can't divorce because you don't trust him to be alone with the girls. Yet you continue to do 98% of the child-raising, when you are BOTH IN THE SAME HOUSE. 

Why is that? Why haven't you stepped back and 'let' him take care of the kids for a few hours, while you are tucked away in the bedroom (locked), taking a bath and having a glass of wine?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> It is, more than anything else. It could kill my 90 year old grandparents.


Come on, seriously? You don't think they understand bad marriages and divorces? It may upset them. It won't kill them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Stopping again to comment. You say you can't divorce because you don't trust him to be alone with the girls. Yet you continue to do 98% of the child-raising, when you are BOTH IN THE SAME HOUSE.
> 
> Why is that? Why haven't you stepped back and 'let' him take care of the kids for a few hours, while you are tucked away in the bedroom (locked), taking a bath and having a glass of wine?


I just don't trust him. I used to do more of this, and I'd return to kids in ridiculously dangerous situations. I don't trust him to keep them safe. When I used to try this, he'd undermine it anyway, and send the kids after me. I've come home to hysterically crying kids, and I just can't relax knowing that that's what's going on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, I said to retreat to another room in your house, and let him parent them.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Children definitely notice the dynamics between their parents. I felt I did an excellent job of making sure my son wasn't aware of our problems. Apparently I failed. He told me not long ago he wished I had gotten a divorce 30 years ago. Just what every parent who stays for their child wants to hear. So, yes, your daughter is becoming more aware of your situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My DD23 has said the same thing. She loves her dad like crazy, but she wishes I would have had the nerve to leave him long ago.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was then a strong advocate for staying for your child/children. Now I'm not. My son told me after his own divorce a few years ago that he never considered reconciling when his wife wanted out because he knows what it's like to grow up in a home where there are obvious problems and he didn't want his three children experiencing that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NL, I had copied the following statements as I was reading your thread, not sure what I was going to do with it, but as you seem to have reached the same conclusion I have, didn't really need to show it to you. But I thought it might help to see it all in one place anyway: 



> I've asked him for more intimacy and affection, but he has mostly ignored those requests.
> every time I ask for something, he'll say yes, but then not do it.
> I've taken the quizzes for both of us, but so far H hasn't. He said he would, and I sent him the links, but then he didn't.
> I started with 7 Principles and asked H to read it too so we could do the exercises together, but he didn't.
> ...


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Tunera, thank you so much for all of your thoughtful comments. Seeing all of my statements there is really powerful. And I know my reasons for feeling like this are sound. Even though this board is my sounding place, I have tried to avoid complaining every time he does something I find uncaring, but there are so, so many. 

I think the biggest lesson I've learned over the last year is that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. H has shown me that he is a person who wants a low level of physical affection, that he doesn't want to talk about feelings, that he doesn't want to put forward any effort for me, but he tells me something different. I could have spared us both all of this pain if I'd just known to look at his actions.

Oh well though, I am 100% certain that the only way I could possibly have learned this lesson is by living it. At least now I know!

I still worry nonstop about what a divorce would do to the kids. They've finally recovered from our international move and adjustment home again, and I'm not going to pull the rug out from under them again with a divorce. And while I do feel that I'm getting the hang of boundaries, H still acts punished when I enforce them (he walked out of the room again today while we were talking. I told him I'm not Ok with that, and left. He followed me and kept talking. I told him I was done with the conversation because I was not ok with him walking out on it. He tried to convince me that he hadn't walked out, but I just opened my computer and ignored him. He sighed and walked away.)

I just so wish this could be different. We had a party on New Years, and one of the dad's put his hand on my back when he walked by me. I literally jumped! Not because some man who wasn't my husband had touched me, but because _someone_ had touched me, and it's been ages since that happened. It was so absurd I almost laughed out loud!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I was then a strong advocate for staying for your child/children. Now I'm not. My son told me after his own divorce a few years ago that he never considered reconciling when his wife wanted out because he knows what it's like to grow up in a home where there are obvious problems and he didn't want his three children experiencing that.


I'm still a bit on the fence here. I know the ideal is two parents who love each other and are giving it their best, and that isn't one of my choices. But it's hard to accept that. If you haven't noticed, I'm very slow to accept things!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I'm still a bit on the fence here. I know the ideal is two parents who love each other and are giving it their best, and that isn't one of my choices. But it's hard to accept that. If you haven't noticed, I'm very slow to accept things!


I absolutely felt I was doing the best thing for my son by staying and it was a huge shock when he told me he wished I had gotten out 30 years ago. I felt his dad and I had given him a wonderful childhood and he said it wasn't. It's hard to realize you wasted decades thinking you were making your child happy and you weren't. So now I'm cynical.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

One of my closest childhood friends has parents who divorced when he was about 5 (he was the youngest of 5 too). His dad married his affair partner, and they've lived happily ever after for 30 years. None of the kids blame him (they know it was always a strained marriage), and they're all happily married themselves. Situations like this give me hope that when parents explain honestly, when the kids are old enough, that they did the best they could but had to follow their hearts, that the kids can handle it and even thrive. 

Terrifying though. I will NOT have the support of my family if I divorce, and it will be very, very hard.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> One of my closest childhood friends has parents who divorced when he was about 5 (he was the youngest of 5 too). His dad married his affair partner, and they've lived happily ever after for 30 years. None of the kids blame him (they know it was always a strained marriage), and they're all happily married themselves. Situations like this give me hope that when parents explain honestly, when the kids are old enough, that they did the best they could but had to follow their hearts, that the kids can handle it and even thrive.
> 
> Terrifying though. I will NOT have the support of my family if I divorce, and it will be very, very hard.


So, you want to be certain.

What will be interesting is to note your own observations as you stay @50k in your interactions with your family.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> So, you want to be certain.
> 
> What will be interesting is to note your own observations as you stay @50k in your interactions with your family.


Yes. I know my instincts are to people please, and I'm trying to stop that. Also, I think I've come a long way in respecting my family's boundaries and enforcing my own. I have caught myself convincing enough times in the last year and I've finally started to move away from it.

Also, I'm selling my family short. They will be sad if I divorce, and worried about the girls, but they see the problems too. If I explained everything, they'd understand. They'd just mourn the loss, and my unhappiness, and I want to spare them that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> And while I do feel that I'm getting the hang of boundaries, H still acts punished when I enforce them


That's why they're called consequences, lol.



northernlights said:


> (he walked out of the room again today while we were talking. I told him I'm not Ok with that, and left. He followed me and kept talking.


BECAUSE you left.



northernlights said:


> I told him I was done with the conversation because I was not ok with him walking out on it. He tried to convince me that he hadn't walked out, but I just opened my computer and ignored him. He sighed and walked away.)


Perfect!

You see how, when you act, he reacts?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Last night, DD8 was telling H about something, and he walked out of the room while she was talking. She yelled after him, "Hey, I don't like it when you leave the room when I'm talking!"

Yay! I've been worried that his behavior will damage their self esteem, but if they're learning boundaries and self-respect, then it can't be all bad, right? (The littler one doesn't need any help enforcing her boundaries. Boy is she a force to be dealt with!)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

northernlights said:


> Last night, DD8 was telling H about something, and he walked out of the room while she was talking. She yelled after him, "Hey, I don't like it when you leave the room when I'm talking!"
> 
> Yay! I've been worried that his behavior will damage their self esteem, but if they're learning boundaries and self-respect, then it can't be all bad, right? (The littler one doesn't need any help enforcing her boundaries. Boy is she a force to be dealt with!)


She ought to tell him to his face rather than yelling, but that's just a nit to pick.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you read any of the info I gave on autism spectrum? I know someone with Asperger's (part of that spectrum) and he has a lot of the same characteristics.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I did Tunera. I don't know... It's not something I want to try to diagnose over the internet, and I'm certain that he's done trying to figure it out himself. In Austria, he had access to great neuropsychologists, did a bunch of testing, was offered follow-up services for the learning disabilities (all totally covered by insurance!), and he wouldn't do it. I feel like I spent so much energy trying to figure out what was going on on his end, and I don't want to go back there. All that said, he's emotionally very similar to the autistic profile, but neither the MC (a PhD psychotherapist), nor the neuropsychologist, nor the neurologist offered it up as a possibility, so I'm thinking that's not it anyway.

Gah, who knows. For a bit there, when he absolutely didn't care that I needed his help to get some sleep (and worse, would wake me up in the morning), I really wondered if he was a psychopath or sociopath. But he doesn't torture animals or anything, and doesn't seem to enjoy intentionally inflicting pain on other people, so I don't know. 

Did I write about the time I was really sick this summer with strep, and the doctor called the house to say the strep test had come back positive and that she'd called an antibiotics prescription into the pharmacy for me to pick up, and H went to go have dinner before bringing them to me? I was too sick to drive (fever at about 103), and he made me wait an extra hour and a half. He still doesn't see that as uncaring, because, you know, dinner. 

Well anyway, I do give up. All I can understand and change is myself.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My parents stayed together for the kids and it was miserable. I have few happy memories of growing up. The thing was, the claim that they stayed together for the kids wasn't entirely true, but it sounded a whole lot better than the real reasons. .The the real reasons revolved around money in their case. I have found that often when people claim it's for the kids that's not entirely true but it sounds good; in reality that may be a consideration but it's also because people don't want to make difficult decisions, for whatever reason. .I'm not saying that's the case here, but you know this isn't good for your daughters and yet you still continue to beat a dead horse, clinging to the notion that they must have two parents in the house or they can't grow up happy. .I hope you find a resolution to this, whatever it may be, and I.hope your daughters don't find men that treat them like this. None of you deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Money is part of it, I'm working on a plan for that. If I did divorce, I'd want to keep the house because the girls love it. We're next door to my parents and moving away from them, plus losing the home they grew up in, would be too many big losses at once. Right now keeping the house is a big question mark. It would only work if I could take over the mortgage and not immediately have to buy H out of his half. I'll need to talk to a lawyer about it for sure, but I'm just not there yet. I think I'll know when I am. I hope I'll know.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Money is part of it, I'm working on a plan for that. If I did divorce, I'd want to keep the house because the girls love it. We're next door to my parents and moving away from them, plus losing the home they grew up in, would be too many big losses at once. Right now keeping the house is a big question mark. It would only work if I could take over the mortgage and not immediately have to buy H out of his half. I'll need to talk to a lawyer about it for sure, but I'm just not there yet. I think I'll know when I am. I hope I'll know.


I can understand that, but don't assume you'd have to buy him out. I don't know what state you live in but when I divorced my ex I got to keep the house and didn't have to buy him out. When there are minor children involved the rules change; our decree said that i could keep it until the youngest turned 18 at which time I had to either buy him out or sell it and give him his half. As it turned out I remarried and he bought me out, now the house is his. I just had the impression from your posts that you're still clinging to the marriage and the idea that somehow you'll look bad and your girls will grow up unhappy if you admit this isn't working. If in fact you're planning an exit strategy I get that. If you live in ne fl i could recommend a great divorce attorney.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I just had the impression from your posts that you're still clinging to the marriage and the idea that somehow you'll look bad and your girls will grow up unhappy if you admit this isn't working. If in fact you're planning an exit strategy I get that. If you live in ne fl i could recommend a great divorce attorney.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm still kind of doing both. I'd like to get to a place where the marriage could continue. Ultimately I understand now that I'm on a certain path, and I just don't know where it's going to take me yet.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

H came down the stairs with the hamper and said, "help me start a load of laundry? I don't know what setting to put this on." and it made me SOOOO irritated. Grr! He's never, in his life, done a load of laundry. I said, "I wasn't going to put in a load tonight, I just wanted to relax. Is there something you really need washed?" and he said he was getting low on socks and "wanted to be helpful."

I was surprised how immediately annoyed I got. Just needing to reflect on that. He never does housework. For 10 years, I've done all of it. But he's passive aggressive about getting his socks washed, and for a long time he's pretended to want to "be helpful," foundered, and needed rescuing. I'm just so sick of it. So his, "help me with the wash" was the first part of the problem. It's not that complicated, you know? It always goes like this... he says he's going to do something, and then asks for so much help that I end up doing most of the work. Last night I refused to help him make dip and you'd think I was being the biggest ***** in the world to him. It's dip! I will not rescue any more.

The other part was that since I do ALL of the laundry, I toss everything into one hamper and sort later. So it's not as simple as just tossing in whatever's in the hamper. Today my white cords were in there, and I didn't want them washed with the colors. He wouldn't know that of course, so that's another thing I'd have to do.

The other thing that irritated me so much was that he said "I want to be helpful." We both work full-time, yet he still sees the cooking, cleaning, shopping, and childcare as my job primarily, with him occasionally "helping." 

I'm just going to get a second hamper and tell him that I'm glad he wants to do more around the house, here's a hamper of your own, and you can take over doing your own laundry. I'm not going to teach him about washing my delicates, what can't be dried, and all the other complexities of woman laundry. 

Just needed to get that out. I feel better now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good plan.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Northern... I am chuckling and laughing at your laundry vent. Can't tell you how many times I have brought up the "helping" implies it is my job thing. Oh, I hear ya!!!

By all means, stop doing his laundry if it annoys you. It feels icky at first, but really you are helping yourself by just accepting he is anal about things, and not allowing his "ways" to disturb your happiness.
Done. problem solved.

I think about a month ago I did actually throw in x's stuff. I never got a thank you... and he has never returned the favor. (he would pick his things out of the hamper and wash them). 

Letting it go and just moving on is wonderful. He has the freedom to do it however and whenever he wants. Forcing responsibility wasn't one of my favorite things to do.. but it felt GOOD after awhile when I realised I was letting him steal my peace with all the games. I no longer give a darn about it. It's no big deal. It's laundry. Who cares. Peace.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think I told you my laundry story?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> I think I told you my laundry story?


You might have, but I don't remember it, so tell me again.

Why do we all have laundry stories?? After our second was born (both were c-sections) I asked H to take the clean clothes out of the dryer and dump them on our bed (bed is upstairs, laundry is basement, so that's 2 flights of stairs. I'm about 2 weeks post-section at this point, and certainly not supposed to be carrying things up and down stairs, but of course I have been, because I was still trying to be superwoman).

Anyway, he pulls the dirty laundry out of the TOP LOADING washing machine. Not a front loader, but a top loader, with the agitator in the middle and everything, and dumps that on our bed. 

I couldn't believe it. It was really dirty laundry too. Poop, crusted up breastmilk (I had serious oversupply). Really, part of the problem is that he's genuinely not very bright. I have an IQ test that proves it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So I was severely stressed and depressed and my IC told me to get my husband to choose just ONE chore to be responsible for, just so I could feel like I had some sort of help. I asked, he refused. I stewed for a few days, and then decided that, if he wasn't going to do even ONE thing, then I would have to pick something to stop doing, for my own sanity. Figured it wouldn't matter to me if his clothes got washed, so I quit doing his laundry. After about a month, he ran out of clothes, and just chewed me a new one; how DARE I not supply him with clean, hung-up clothes?

I just shrugged and said 'I TOLD you I needed help. I ASKED you to help with just one thing, and you refused. So I had to pick something, or go crazy. So I picked your laundry.'

He was flabbergasted, didn't say a word, and I turned around and went and did some other chores. After a bit, I noticed he was fixing some things that hadn't been taken care of in years. So I did a load of his laundry. He did some other stuff, I did another load. And so on.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just in case you're wondering if our daily lives here up north are any different... here's what happened the other day.

I do everything in the morning. Get myself ready, get the girls ready, pack our three lunches, get us out the door, and about twice a week get dinner going in the crock pot too. H works from home and gets out of bed about a half hour before we're out the door. He lets the dogs out, and now that it's cold, I've been asking him to scrape off my windshield while he's out with them. He's done it about twice, but we're working on it.

Well, the other day I'm hustling the girls out the door and I see my windshield, frosted over. It was depressing, because it's the _one_ thing I ask him to do. So I said, "oh, H, why didn't you scrape the ice off my windshield?"

and he said, "that's on the inside."

GRR!!! Ice on the inside is even harder to scrape off, but melts off in about 10 minutes if you just START THE CAR! So I had to scrape, which is pathetic because the scraper doesn't fit the curve of the inside of the windshield, and we were about 5 minutes late. Not a crisis, but I don't like to be late.

Sigh... I give up. Either he's still PA or he's just totally clueless still.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe you could just ask him to START the car, and let the heat run the ice off?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

turnera said:


> Maybe you could just ask him to START the car, and let the heat run the ice off?


Just make sure the heat is on "max" when you turn the car off.

Those two step directions can be tough


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Just make sure the heat is on "max" when you turn the car off.
> 
> Those two step directions can be tough


When you follow through on this and it "works", your inner smile will be a mile wide.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When you follow through on this and it "works", your inner smile will be a mile wide.


A warm car, I'll have a nice big outside smile too!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Northern,
I just dont' know how you do it!
PA or silliness or the need for drama... I couldn't do it.
I just stopped asking him to do anything.

After awhile, the resentment went away and I felt... STRONG.
Proud of myself for doing it all myself, and still looking after him (we all know that's part of the job too).

It kinda came to the point that no matter how or what I said, I was whining and complaining. Poor me. Look at how hard my life is!
I didn't like how that looked on me. 

Yeah, I had too much to do. So I stopped doing what I could. Like his laundry, cleaning so often, etc. 

But it wasn't out of resentment or to push his buttons, it was to STOP him from pushing MY buttons by refusing to "help". Game over. 

didn't need his help. At all. Whoo hoo!!

This was part of the whole... my LIFE is okay. I am at peace. But there are life situations... and basically 3 ways to deal with them.
-Remove yourself from it if possible
-Accept it completely and stop whining about it. That's just how it is. Self imposed misery at best to continue on the same path.
-Change the situation (not the person, the situation)

My smarts came in handy after all. At least the nonsense no longer pissed me off. Which is what I really wanted.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's good, I got there, too (never really left there), but really, what kind of marriage is that? I would never DREAM of asking my H to do ANYTHING for me. When I was told I had to be put under for surgery and they wanted someone to drive me home, I asked if I could hang around in the waiting room until I was ready to drive myself home. That's not a marriage.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

turnera said:


> When I was told I had to be put under for surgery and they wanted someone to drive me home, I asked if I could hang around in the waiting room until I was ready to drive myself home.


Wow, I thought I was the only one. I was always too embarrassed to tell anyone (family, friends) that I have been handling these types of situations on my own for many years. No rides to the ER, no help with roadside mishaps, no illness or post-op assistance ... nothing. I stopped asking or expecting anything from my husband long ago.

I suppose the upside is that I have become very resourceful and independent.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> But it wasn't out of resentment or to push his buttons, it was to STOP him from pushing MY buttons by refusing to "help". Game over.
> 
> didn't need his help. At all. Whoo hoo!!


Part of my journey has been in the opposite direction though. I married him in part BECAUSE he didn't do anything. I was super woman! I didn't need anyone! I could do it all by myself, and I was more than happy to prove it by asking for nothing from anyone, not even my husband.

Well, that's just ridiculous it turns out. So part of what I've had to learn is to ask for the help that I need. And I know that if we're ever going to fix things, I'm going to have to let him be there for me.

The breakdown, of course, is that he's not very interested in helping me after all. Still, I don't want to learn the wrong lesson from this (I was right! I am an island! I don't need anyone!), when I _do_ need help. So I don't want to let my reactions to him lead me back to that place where I won't take help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just so you know, the reason many of us have ended up not asking for help is because we used to do it and got 'punished' in some way; so not asking is a form of self-preservation. Not sure that applies for you. Don't know why he isn't interested. That could be a really complex issue unto itself.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> Wow, I thought I was the only one. I was always too embarrassed to tell anyone (family, friends) that I have been handling these types of situations on my own for many years. No rides to the ER, no help with roadside mishaps, no illness or post-op assistance ... nothing. I stopped asking or expecting anything from my husband long ago.
> 
> I suppose the upside is that I have become very resourceful and independent.


As the dust settles, I'm finding that this is the biggest of our issues. I feel betrayed by his refusal to be there for me when I needed it. There wasn't just one time, but so many little ones over and over. He's never been my advocate, even when we were first dating. I remember one time, out of nowhere I spiked a fever of about 105. I was kind of delirious, so I just went to bed. But he didn't take care of me. He didn't go get tylenol, or take me to the ER (it was the middle of the night on a Saturday, of course). He just went to sleep and didn't check up on me again. And it's been like that the whole relationship through. I could probably come up with dozens of examples of him not caring for me when I was sick or injured. 

Now it's been a year almost since we first separated, and since I started the journey of working on myself and cleaning up my side of the street. I can see things so much more clearly, and I can see how I've contributed to our problems. I can even forgive him for all of those betrayals. But I don't think I can forget, and I don't think I can rebuild trust and intimacy. Not by myself. And he's still not doing anything to help.

Good news is that money-wise, things are looking very good. I could keep the house if I didn't have to buy H out of his share immediately, and we'd be fine. If I had to buy him out, I'd lose the house. 

There's still a major issue holding me back from moving forward, and that's the girls' dual-citizenship, and the reality that I'd lose the opportunity to participate in a bi-cultural upbringing for them. If we divorce, no summers together in Europe. No moving there so they can do high school there (well, not without a work visa and job, which isn't easy to get). And if they go to school overseas, I can't live there too. 

Married, we can give them the chance to grow up on two continents. Divorced, I can't afford it, and I'm pretty sure he won't bother. 

It's probably not going to keep me married for another 10 years, but it's a loss I still need to process. Time, time, time... maybe I'm just stalling now because I'm so scared.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Just so you know, the reason many of us have ended up not asking for help is because we used to do it and got 'punished' in some way; so not asking is a form of self-preservation. Not sure that applies for you. Don't know why he isn't interested. That could be a really complex issue unto itself.


Yeah, it probably doesn't apply to me. When I was younger, I really thought I was super-woman. Kind of an ego thing! 

As far as him not being interested in helping, that was something I really hoped the marriage counselor could answer for me. I know I've harped on this a lot, but the sleep deprivation was so bad that I very nearly had a nervous breakdown. I'd cry, and cry, and cry. I'd fall asleep in the middle of the day. I locked me and the girls in the bedroom because I thought he was going to stab us in our sleep!!! I was clearly NOT coping well. And he just didn't care... the one morning he finally "let" me sleep in, HE came into the room and woke me up THREE times to ask how to make pancakes. 

I told the MC that I needed to know why this happened, because I was afraid it was really some kind of psychopathy. I needed a professional to tell me he wasn't hurting me on purpose, so that I could one day trust him again. She told me she didn't know. That she didn't think it was something like that, but she couldn't say. And H, sitting right there, never offered his own explanation.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Here's an email H sent the other day after we had a fight in the morning. I had emailed to apologize for raising my voice, and he apologized for being a jerk. Then I said (for the first time in a year), that I still feel the same way I did a year ago, before we did MC, and that I'm still planning to divorce when the girls are bigger. Maybe you guys can find more hope in it than I have.

H: I do realize that we are heading in that direction, yes.

I don't think much has changed since marriage counseling, but I did realize at least how boring and uninteresting life was without you and the girls around those few weeks I was alone in Austria. 

The things I am working on right now is trying to be kind and honest. These are small things, I know, but I hate it when I snap at the kids for no reason. That has stopped. And being honest, you know, is tougher, but I'm working on it. I also want to become more independent and find some way to remember things so that conflicts like this morning can be avoided. But I'm starting with the first 2 things. Baby steps. It may be too late, but I have to become a better person that way. 


What bothered me was primarily that he says he wants to stay married because being separated was lonely. I told him that evening that he would have the kids part-time in a divorce, so the separation wasn't a great model of what a divorce would actually look like. "I want to stay married to you so I won't be alone" is in line with his behaviors, but this is the first time he's come out and said that's what his motivation is.

Another thing that I didn't like was that the lying and snapping at the kids are certainly big problems, but by no means the only things I need him to change. 

Finally, it's always all about him. We've never talked about me or my feelings, what he needs from me, what I need. Any conversation is immediately about him.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Had a fight/conversation with H this morning. It started over something trivial--DD8 lost a tooth last night, and we briefly talked about who'd play tooth fairy. I sleep with the girls, so I said I would. H said ok.

DD8 wakes up with $2 under her pillow. Huh? So I ask H, did you put money under her pillow? I thought we agreed I'd do it. Not a big deal of course, but with H I'm never sure if he comprehends/remembers our conversations (long back story if you're new to this, but early onset dementia runs in the family, and he's already been screened. His test results were all over the map but at least establish a baseline). He says he does remember, he just checked at 11 and saw the tooth still there, assumed I'd forgotten, and took it and left a dollar. When I went to leave her a dollar in the middle of the night, I couldn't find the tooth but didn't want to wake her up looking for it, so just figured it had fallen on the floor and left her a dollar.

I told him what bugged me about that was if hew as planning to check up on me (irritating), he should have told me so I wouldn't have been confused in the middle of the night, and that the whole point of having a conversation about doing the tooth fairy thing is that so he can say out loud, "I'll check at 11 and make sure you didn't forget," so I know what he's thinking. 

I know this sounds nit-picked, but every conversation we have involved me saying my piece, and him agreeing but withholding what he plans to do, then acting like it's not a big deal when something we've discussed goes entirely differently. So I told him that, and (yet again) said that one of the reasons I'm so unhappy is that we can't have a conversation and make a plan that actually reflects what we both want and intend to do. I can't tell you how many times we've made a plan--the kind that should unite us as a couple, like how we're going to deal with inlaws or difficult guests--and he goes and does something entirely different or takes a side against me, leaving me feeling totally hung out to dry.

So I said again, I at least want us to work together to co-parent, because we're going to have to do that even after we divorce. He rolled his eyes and said, "we're not divorcing."

And that was just too much. He just doesn't understand that I'm my own person with my own feelings. If HE doesn't think we should divorce, then in his mind, it's not on the table. I told him, YES, we WILL divorce, it's a matter of when. I reminded him that he's free to go sooner if he wants to find a new partner, and he rolled his eyes again. 

I wish we could have stayed with our old therapist. She told me and him that he was in his own world, and that it would probably take years of therapy to get him to understand other people and normal human interactions. I don't think he sees it. I really don't care at this point, because I have no intention of continuing the marriage once the kids are big enough to do as well as possible through a divorce, but it was one of those moments that made me realize absolutely nothing has changed in our marriage. I am just not a person to him. He really doesn't get that I have my own feelings, not just the feelings he thinks I should have. 

And grr, the contempt with which he dismissed my desire for a divorce... it just doesn't matter to him. I am looking back over our relationship and trying to see a time when he responded to my feelings.... and it's never. I remember last year sobbing when I found out about Sandy Hook, and he just looked at me and walked away. Never a hug, never compassion. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind sociopathy on his part, just a total inability to empathize. But unless he cares and gets into therapy, I don't see how that could ever change.

Feeling depressed...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just so you know, most research shows that kids adapt better to divorce the YOUNGER they are, not the older. The longer you wait, the more it will hurt the kids.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Had a fight/conversation with H this morning. It started over something trivial--DD8 lost a tooth last night, and we briefly talked about who'd play tooth fairy. I sleep with the girls, so I said I would. H said ok.
> 
> DD8 wakes up with $2 under her pillow. Huh? So I ask H, did you put money under her pillow? I thought we agreed I'd do it. Not a big deal of course, but with H I'm never sure if he comprehends/remembers our conversations (long back story if you're new to this, but early onset dementia runs in the family, and he's already been screened. His test results were all over the map but at least establish a baseline). He says he does remember, he just checked at 11 and saw the tooth still there, assumed I'd forgotten, and took it and left a dollar. When I went to leave her a dollar in the middle of the night, I couldn't find the tooth but didn't want to wake her up looking for it, so just figured it had fallen on the floor and left her a dollar.
> 
> ...


I feel you on the planning thing. My x was like that. We would have a long conversation that seemed really productive, we'd come to an agreement about something and as far as I knew we both felt good about it. Then the next day it was like we never had the conversation. She acted like she had no clue about what we talked about and agreed. That drove me insane! Did she forget what we talked about? Was she not listening and just pretending to listen? I never figured it out. By the end of the relationship, I had taken to putting things in writing and having her sign them so she couldn't claim that she never said or never agreed to something. Of course she then complained that I was trying to control her. Talk about a no win situation.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

wilderness said:


> I feel you on the planning thing. My x was like that. We would have a long conversation that seemed really productive, we'd come to an agreement about something and as far as I knew we both felt good about it. Then the next day it was like we never had the conversation. She acted like she had no clue about what we talked about and agreed. That drove me insane! Did she forget what we talked about? Was she not listening and just pretending to listen? I never figured it out. By the end of the relationship, I had taken to putting things in writing and having her sign them so she couldn't claim that she never said or never agreed to something. Of course she then complained that I was trying to control her. Talk about a no win situation.


I'm sorry you've experienced this too, but it is nice to know I'm not the only one! For the longest time, I just thought it was me. And he'd reinforce that, saying that the conversation didn't happen the way I remembered it. It's a horrid thing to do to a person.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Just so you know, most research shows that kids adapt better to divorce the YOUNGER they are, not the older. The longer you wait, the more it will hurt the kids.


I didn't know this! Ugh. 

I'm just SO FREAKING STUBBORN about this. I DO NOT WANT TO DIVORCE! I mean, I do, but it's just a lose-lose-lose for everyone, and I can't give up fighting. If H would just DO SOMETHING, and act like he cares, I'll bet we could still make it! If we did make it, it just makes such a difference for the kids... money-wise, the ability to travel and live in Europe together... so much. :-(


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Northern Lights,

Been a while since I posted on your thread. I think Turnera is right that D sooner is better than later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I'm sorry you've experienced this too, but it is nice to know I'm not the only one! For the longest time, I just thought it was me. And he'd reinforce that, saying that the conversation didn't happen the way I remembered it. It's a horrid thing to do to a person.


It's something that I don't think anyone can understand unless you've been put in that situation. In researching personality disorders (which perhaps your husband has), something that seems to come up a lot is that these people have problems with memory. I know my ex always complained that she couldn't remember anything, which is so strange to me because I remember everything, even conversations from years and years ago.

It's an incredibly disconcerting feeling when your spouse acts shocked when you bring up an agreement based on an hour long conversation that happened the day or a few days before. As far as I could tell, to her the conversation/agreement often never happened or happened in a totally different way that it did in reality!

The other thing I noticed about my ex, which is consistent at least- is that if I asked her opinion on something (say, a movie, for example), she would give it. Then I would ask her opinion a couple of days later about the exact same movie and I would get a totally different answer than I got the first time.

I never figured it out- was it a game she was playing? Did she really change her mind that drastically and that consistently about- well, everything? Was it that she just didn't participate in conversations the way that normal people do?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

wilderness said:


> It's something that I don't think anyone can understand unless you've been put in that situation. In researching personality disorders (which perhaps your husband has), something that seems to come up a lot is that these people have problems with memory.


I don't know how much of my story you know, but my H has been evaluated by a neurologist because I finally realized that something was really truly wrong with one of us, and we needed to figure out what was going on. H's father has an unidentified neurological disorder that includes dementia, and I got to the point that I was really afraid he had it too (and then, that the girls might have inherited it). 

A few summers ago we had houseguest after houseguest after houseguest, and on the last round, I was losing it. I hadn't slept in years at this point, and I was fully on the verge of either dying or having a nervous breakdown. A hurricane was coming, and I told H that I was going to suggest our guests get out ahead of it, because 8 people in a small house with no power or running water (private well that requires electricity) was a nightmare scenario that was stressing me out to no end. 

H agreed, and I asked our guests if they wanted to check with their airline to see if they could change dates for free ahead of the hurricane. They said I was overreacting, it'd be fine (!!! any wonder I was so done with these people ?!) and H AGREED with them! He immediately said, yeah you're totally overreacting, it'll miss us. I felt so stabbed in the back by that one. When I asked him what happened to our conversation (which was just the night before) he said, "oh I forgot."

He does have several different learning disabilities, but our MC said they didn't account for this kind of behavior. She wouldn't venture a diagnosis on what was going on, which really frustrated me. Maybe there isn't a personality disorder though, and he's just a really selfish person.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

People who think abnormally can't participate normally. That's like asking a turtle to bark; it's not how they work. My H simply cannot understand anyone else's thought processes. He'll nod and say he understands and then go do the complete opposite, simply because it's what HE believes and how could anyone _really_ think any other way? My IC said that the ONLY way to deal with such a person is to change things so that you no longer have to depend on their cooperation to get things done. 

And, NL, not sure if I said this or not yet, but I tried every thing I could possibly think of to get him to accommodate my wishes, for more than 30 years. It wasn't until I finally said that I was leaving, that he actually HEARD me and started trying. I know you don't want divorce, but honestly, he rolls his eyes at you. What does that tell you? 

It tells ME that he ignores you because he doesn't believe you. He doesn't change, he doesn't accommodate your needs because...well, frankly...he doesn't have to. He knows you'll never leave.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> It tells ME that he ignores you because he doesn't believe you. He doesn't change, he doesn't accommodate your needs because...well, frankly...he doesn't have to. He knows you'll never leave.


You're right. I can come up with a million reasons to keep trying and stay, but ultimately I married him because I was afraid to be alone, and I'm still afraid. This time, it's not fear of being alone, but fear that staying is better for my kids. I don't mind making the sacrifice to stay if it is better.

In that sense, this board has only made it harder to leave. I read the posts from men and women who have been left out of the blue, and I can just feel their heartache. I can't help but believe that's what it must feel like for their kids, too. Their family that they love as much as these people have loved their spouses is getting torn up without their consent. I just can't put my kids through that.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I didn't know this! Ugh.
> 
> I'm just SO FREAKING STUBBORN about this. I DO NOT WANT TO DIVORCE! I mean, I do, but it's just a lose-lose-lose for everyone, and I can't give up fighting. If H would just DO SOMETHING, and act like he cares, I'll bet we could still make it! If we did make it, it just makes such a difference for the kids... money-wise, the ability to travel and live in Europe together... so much. :-(


You can still do all of that as long as you are willing not to be who you really are. He's not changing. Not enough to count. So you either stay and be unhappy or leave and rebuild your life and have a chance to be happy.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Sounds like your H. lacks basic empathy and an ability to connect to people at some fundamental levels. Could be a narcissist. Could be mild Asbergers or something. Who knows.

As for the breaking of plans...man that hits home with me. I have done that to my wife a couple times in the pat few months and it did drive her crazy. I did not mean to break our plan really, and did not intend to hurt her by doing so, but when we agreed to something and then I did something else after more thought or when circumstances changed, it made her not trust me once again. 

I doubt he does that sort of thing to hurt you intentionally, for what it is worth. Nevertheless, if he won't even recognize that it is a problem, will not ever really try to correct himself, then this will always be a problem, in addition to all the disconnect you get from him. I bet he is disconnected from everybody. He's in his own world.

You and I have been posting here for a year. Both of us are right where we were a year ago in terms of the relationships we are in. Both of us have been afraid to move on, afraid to let go, afraid of the future, afraid of being labeled failures, using various excuses why we cannot let this thing go with our respective spouses. 

I recently asked my W for a decision: divorce or reconciliation process. She chose the first, and it was hard to hear. I'm good with it now. Waiting till counseling in a week, during which I expect her to say the same and I will not fight it at all. I will simply lay down the terms of what this means for me: an end to the relationship, not just the marriage. I need to move on and detach, so no contact so I can become emotionally secure and not get sucked into her life, hoping, wondering, over and over.

This is hard. I don't want it really. But this is the reality of it. You are in the same boat.

You cannot use your kids as an excuse: you are teaching them to stay in relationships where they may experience all sorts of things that are not good for them. You are setting yourself up for them to be very resentful with you later in life, for modeling what a "good" woman and mother does: put up with being a doormat and staying in a house without love. Do you want your children to have your marriage? Stay, and that is what they are going to learn.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Arendt said:


> You and I have been posting here for a year. Both of us are right where we were a year ago in terms of the relationships we are in. Both of us have been afraid to move on, afraid to let go, afraid of the future, afraid of being labeled failures, using various excuses why we cannot let this thing go with our respective spouses.


You're right. I can come up with a million reasons to stay, and really only one to leave: I'm not benefitting from this marriage in the way I'd dreamed. In fact, it sucks my energy is a harmful way. You have a PhD in theology, you must more than anyone here appreciate how hard divorce will be for me (I'm Catholic). While Pope Francis' stance is softening towards divorcees, I still won't be allowed to receive communion at my church if I divorce and find another relationship.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I am at a Jesuit University. I went through RCIA, but did not join in the end. So I understand divorce in the RC. However, there are potentially grounds for an annulment in your case. 

It sound to me like your husband is psychologically incapable of fulfilling his duties as a husband, the essential duties of a husband. 

I suspect a good canon lawyer could get an annulment for you. I know people who have gotten them with far less than your story.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just checking in. Things have been good in general, unchanged in marriage. I'm seeing a new counselor (no copay!!) for anxiety issues, but there's no pulling the wool over this woman's eyes. She asked me what was going well in my life and immediately zoned in on me not mentioning my marriage. She wants me to keep working in it. We haven't had time to get into the whole story yet, but I'm curious to find out what she thinks. I haven't talked to anyone ever since I realized that I'm at a place where I don't foresee being able to trust him again, and I'm curious if that's something she thinks can or should be rebuilt.

Mostly though, I'm doing this to focus on my own anxiety issues. It's still a challenge for me to prioritize making time for myself, but I'm getting there.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

A fresh perspective can be useful. Maybe she can help you. Anxiety is about fear.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Just had a lovely visit with my grandparents (the ones I described as very traditional and possibly capable of being pushed into the grave if I divorced). I had to laugh when my grandfather asked how my marriage was and proceeded to tell me he didn't understand what I ever saw in H and that if I had the chance to divorce him for the guy my grandfather had wanted me to marry (his friend's son), I had better jump at the chance. Man, I can't call anything!! 

We're still not officially separated, but we're doing most things separately, like vacations and such, and we're apparently not fooling anyone. But it's really nice to know that my family is far, far more supportive (and unsurprised) than I thought they'd be.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yay! Yay for you for having GREAT family!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Maybe you are more disturbed by the concept of being divorced than anyone else! It can boil down to just a belief you have. That it would be wrong. Maybe your belief is wrong 

Glad to know you have some support!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

deejov said:


> Maybe you are more disturbed by the concept of being divorced than anyone else! It can boil down to just a belief you have. That it would be wrong. Maybe your belief is wrong
> 
> Glad to know you have some support!


My mom and I were talking again the other day. She also told me she sees us divorcing but holding off a little longer for the kids sakes. I still feel like we're low/no conflict so that's the best course, for now. Actually truly accepting that and making peace has been the best thing yet for the marriage. Hey, maybe h will even come around!


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

You family will support you. They may hem and haw a little here and there, but ultimately, they are going to support their daughter/sister/niece/granddaughter. That is how things are.

I still don't get the whole "it is for the kids thing." They see through things too. Do you think they are happy in a loveless relationship between their parents? And again, what are you teaching them about being in a relationship? 

This is about your fears more than anything. Have you really examined what is underneath those fears (fear of being alone, fear of hurting your kids, fear of relatives not supporting you, etc)?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

It's all the kids. I know the data is severely muddled by correlation, but children of divorce suffer. I read somewhere that in the 2 years following a divorce, kids basically lose a year of math skills. That one hits where it hurts, as I was a star mathlete in junior high and high school, and I'd love to see my girls do competitive math as well. 

I know that counts all divorces, including the messy ones, but what divorce doesn't feel messy to a kid? Every time I read a post here from a spouse who's been left seemingly out of the blue, I think that that's got to be what it feels like to the kids. They may understand that we don't love each other, but a divorce would be a bigger trauma. And besides, I don't know many couples with kids my girls' ages who are doing well, so I don't think seeing that ideal loving marriage modeled is anything close to the norm. 

So given all that, I just don't see the point. Yes, I wouldn't have to deal with my H every day if we divorced, but what else would I gain? The chance to meet someone else? I'm not thinking my odds are very good there, living in this small town. 

And yes, I understand that making decisions based on logic and my best guess at odds is what got me into this situation... but that kind of decision making has served me well outside of romantic affairs, so I think I'll stick with it.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Wow, and then I get on Facebook and see this:

Stressful Relationships vs. Isolation: The Battle for Our Lives - James Hamblin - The Atlantic

more data for the pile...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, divorce affects children but so does a bad marriage. Parents always think children are less perceptive than they really are. 

There is unfortunately no good time to end a marriage once you have children.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Well, I haven't posted in a really long time. Things were moving slowly, I have been seeing a therapist and feeling more and more confident about setting boundaries, respecting myself, and expecting respectful treatment from others. Some memories surfaced a month or two ago, and they made me realize that things have been more messed up than I was really understanding for a long time (basically, post-childbirth sex was really painful for me for a long time. I know that's hard on spouses too, but there were so many times I said no, stop, that hurts, and he just kept going. So many times. Sometimes I'd fight and push and yell and he'd stop. Sometimes I wouldn't and he didn't. A lot there to unpack that's just really hard to get into).

A few days ago, we were talking about something, and I told him that I need to know if he loves me, because I feel like he at least owes me the truth. I've struggled to reconcile his words with his actions, and I just want to know. It's messed up my instincts about what loving treatment looks like. But he's steadfastly insisted (when it comes up, maybe twice a year) that he does indeed love me and want this to work.

He said no, I don't love you. I said how long? He said I don't know. I said, did you love me when you wouldn't help with the sleep thing? He said no. (That was 3 1/2 years ago). I said how about (another time)? No. That was 4 or 5 years ago.

So now I'm just stunned and hurt. He hasn't loved me for years, and showed me that with his treatment, but not his words. No wonder I've been so confused. Even at marriage counseling, when he told the counselor he loved me and wanted to fix things, he was lying. No wonder I've been spinning my wheels for so long. 

All of you who kept pointing me to his actions were so right. When I asked him why he didn't tell me a long time ago, he said admitting it made him feel like an *******, and he didn't want to feel like that. So I had to suffer psychological torment for all these years because he didn't want to sound like an *******?? 

He said he's looking into moving out, and we're tossing around this summer.

I also realize he might not be telling the truth now either, but it no longer matters. He has not treated me in a loving manner in a very long time. It's obvious, finally, that he'll never be able to be a loving spouse.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I wish you the best. For him, it sounds like his decisions were made on what perception he would show to others. All we can do is deal with the reality that is handed to us, and I hope that you make the best investments in yourself. We are really never taught how to operate in a relationship, so it becomes a learning experience as we go along. What you have gained is experience, and with that, you can make more insightful decisions.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> What you have gained is experience, and with that, you can make more insightful decisions.


Thank you. I focused for a really long time on trying to fix things and tried to not take a long view of the relationship and analyze whether it was actually fixable. I was afraid that I couldn't be objective and doing so would doom everything. I think that was the right decision, but now, having given it my best for so long, I think our problems have been present from the very beginning. I was fundamentally too flawed a person to be part of a healthy relationship and so was he. I'm proud that I've come so far, but it's been hard. It's hard to acknowledge the treatment that led me to be an adult woman who expected nothing from a spouse, got nothing, and was ok with that. I think H's childhood issues are even deeper and worse than mine. 

I just can't believe this is actually happening. My kids don't deserve this.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

northernlights said:


> My kids don't deserve this.


Neither do you.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Neither do you.


Thank you for saying that. My gut reaction is not so sure that I don't. I still have a ways to go in the self-esteem department. I'm such a flawed person. I know no one is perfect, and being flawed myself doesn't mean I deserve poor treatment. I just have to keep repeating that until I believe it.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

One thing I learned about life at age 15, you really can't control the hand you were dealt, but you had to learn to adapt with the reality. There is some control in which you can plan for, and even that is not guaranteed. I had to survive physical and emotional abuse since I was 5, and the truth is the abuse I suffered in the end was something I had to work on by myself. I had to learn to deal with life differently.

Your kids should have a stable life with two healthy role models, but in the end, it becomes their own issue to deal with. You can learn to grow and show self-improvement, and thus be at least one healthy role model for your children. Bad choices does not always condemn us for the rest of our lives, you just have to raise the probability of success. All the investments you make in yourself, your children will receive the benefits also. You may find a better partner, and a more fulfilling relationship. The past happened, and now it is something to learn from.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

northernlights said:


> Thank you for saying that. My gut reaction is not so sure that I don't. I still have a ways to go in the self-esteem department. I'm such a flawed person. I know no one is perfect, and being flawed myself doesn't mean I deserve poor treatment. I just have to keep repeating that until I believe it.



Don't worry, we are all dysfunctional beings. Some of us at best can just manage our dysfunction. Your not aiming for perfect, just better as best as you can manage. You should acknowledge the good qualities you do possess. If you constantly focus on the negative, that is all you will think about. Own your issues but know that you are more than just your issues. Your a caring mother, which is a good quality, as you care about the welfare of your children. You have empathy for your husband even though he is the way he is. Those things you can be proud of.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

One thing I'm super proud of is my self-care (my therapist keeps me on task here). I've been getting 8.5 hours of sleep pretty much every night for 2 years, and I have just recently gotten to the point where I don't wake up exhausted any more. I thought it was never going to happen. I'm still dealing with effects of the sleep deprivation, like having difficulty remembering words and basically shutting down at the 16 hours awake mark, but worlds better than 2 years ago. I've been really healthy too. I mean, ordinary getting sick here and there, but nothing major since the strep/pnemonia/flu thing of a year and a half ago. Looking back at how incapacitated I was by exhaustion, I can't believe I even survived.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm sorry but unfortunately not surprised. His actions were not those of someone who loved you. As long as you believed him, you were hesitant to act so it's good (although it may not feel that way now) that he finally told you the truth. I see better things in your future.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

He's definitely got a lot of narcissistic tendencies. I found this article here a while ago, and just saw it again: Passive Aggressive Behavior and Domestic Abuse

this is my marriage perfectly. I believe he doesn't love me now, and I believe that he probably never loved me in a way I would define as love. There was no "me" to him, just a person (who could just as well have been any woman, there was nothing special about me to him) who fulfilled his needs. When I started to have needs of my own (after the kids were born), that's when I started to assert myself and he started to withdraw. The more I pushed for love and intimacy, the further he withdrew. 

I'm even coming around to the idea that the divorce will ultimately be healthy for the kids. My youngest has a difficult relationship with her father already at 6, because she's got an incredible emotional awareness and can see through a lot of what he does. For about 2 years now, she's been asking why we don't love each other, and I've been telling her marriage can be hard work but we're trying. My older daughter feels enormous guilt that she sees me working full-time and doing all of the cooking and cleaning (yes, still. None of that has changed a bit), and I think she'll ultimately feel reassured that I'm asserting myself. I wish the dysfunction here hadn't been so obvious to them, but it is what it is. I mean, it's going to suck for them, but it already sucks for them. It will get worse, but then better.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I'm such a flawed person.


Hon, we _ALL_ are. That's the secret that's been eluding you. Not a one of us is better, less flawed, or more worthy. What matters is what we do with this one life we have. Now you've finally been given the truth and you can move on from the false relationship you were living in. You can go out and seek someone ELSE who will understand that and be happy to be flawed alongside you.


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## FormerVictim (Jan 13, 2015)

northernlights said:


> Well, I haven't posted in a really long time. Things were moving slowly, I have been seeing a therapist and feeling more and more confident about setting boundaries, respecting myself, and expecting respectful treatment from others. Some memories surfaced a month or two ago, and they made me realize that things have been more messed up than I was really understanding for a long time (basically, post-childbirth sex was really painful for me for a long time. I know that's hard on spouses too, but there were so many times I said no, stop, that hurts, and he just kept going. So many times. Sometimes I'd fight and push and yell and he'd stop. Sometimes I wouldn't and he didn't. A lot there to unpack that's just really hard to get into).
> 
> A few days ago, we were talking about something, and I told him that I need to know if he loves me, because I feel like he at least owes me the truth. I've struggled to reconcile his words with his actions, and I just want to know. It's messed up my instincts about what loving treatment looks like. But he's steadfastly insisted (when it comes up, maybe twice a year) that he does indeed love me and want this to work.
> 
> ...


Observation is a powerful tool. I'm glad to hear you've been taking better care of yourself. It's very important. Don't stop with those good habits, no matter how much stress comes up now.

We truly only can change us. Others make their own choices. Think of it this way. Your new "authenticity" finally forced him to come clean. Imagine another 5-10 years of the lies fostered by your codependency.

Time for something better.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

He said today that he wants to start therapy to fix the marriage. Unbelievable. I _think_ that's just his way of putting the guilt of the split onto me--because now, _he_ wants to work on things and I'm the one who's saying no. I don't know. I told him that I can't do that anymore. I just don't have it in me. I dont' want to. Guilt.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I hope you realize that he's saying that because it's sinking in that he won't have you to wipe his rear end anymore. He's going to have to do his own cooking and cleaning and if he wants to see his kids he'll have to take care of them himself. He doesn't love you but doesn't want to lose your services. 

Why on earth would you feel guilty? Even your kids are suffering, and him not helping you has nothing to do with whether he loves you. He could've done that as a decent human being, but since he's an entitled pr!ck he didn't. All you are is services to him, what's to fix? Please do your kids and yourself a favor and get rid of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

northernlights said:


> He said today that he wants to start therapy to fix the marriage. Unbelievable. I _think_ that's just his way of putting the guilt of the split onto me--because now, _he_ wants to work on things and I'm the one who's saying no. I don't know. I told him that I can't do that anymore. I just don't have it in me. I dont' want to. Guilt.


If he wants to work on the marriage, fine. Let him do it from his own place. You can go to therapy together from the emotional safety of a separation. He can try to earn you back, if you are inclined to give him yet another opportunity.

But, insist on your own time, space, healing. You have been through so much.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks for the reality check. It IS afffecting the kids, a lot. My 6 year old got mad at me for something like not letting her watch TV, or putting her in time out for hitting her sister, and she ran to her room crying. When I went in to check on her, she told me "love is a lie."

Ouch. I told my therapist, and she just about smacked me upside the head. I know she wanted to. She thinks the girls are getting conflicting messages about love when we continue to live together as husband and wife (the ultimate example of love) when we don't love each other. I know she's right. But I still worry that they'll be stressed out by the back and forth shuffle. The 6 year old doesn't do nights apart from me at all yet... If H lives nearby, do you think it'd be reasonable to do daytimes but not nights at first? Everything on the kids' timetables, right?

I haven't told anyone IRL yet. I can't imagine how I'll do it without crying for weeks straight.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The younger your kids are, the easier it is for them to accept two homes.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Do you honestly think your husband will take the girls that much? You said he doesn't really spend a lot of time with them, do you think that will change after you divorce? My guess will be that he won't.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

turnera said:


> The younger your kids are, the easier it is for them to accept two homes.


As much as I DETEST the concept of this...sadly it is true.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

karole said:


> Do you honestly think your husband will take the girls that much? You said he doesn't really spend a lot of time with them, do you think that will change after you divorce? My guess will be that he won't.


No, he probably won't. He won't care if they come over for a day but don't spend the night either.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> No, he probably won't. He won't care if they come over for a day but don't spend the night either.


It's historically proven that most men, upon divorce, see their kids about half as much as they agreed on, for the first year. The next year, about half of that. The next year, even less. By the time 5 years has passed, many if not most dads rarely even see their kids except for holidays. Present involved men here seeking help excluded.

It's also been shown that kids need stability more than anything. To know they have a safe place to call home, and that they're wanted at that home. That way, if the other parent flakes out, they already know they have their home and he's just something to learn not to expect much from. Women keep families together; just the way it is. 

That said, just staying married SO they see their dads is more likely to mess them up because they will learn THEIR vision of a 'home' by what they grow up in, and if the two parents are fighting, indifferent, cheating, ridiculing, THAT is the partner they will look for. It's far better for them to see ONE fair, loving, nonjudgmental home with one parent, than to see all that.

Old statistics, but you get the point.


> only half of the 2200 children in a survey from the late 1980s had seen their father in the past year and only 15% had seen him once a week


http://users.wfu.edu/nielsen/divorceddad.pdf


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Gosh, I don't think I know of any dads that don't have their kids every chance they get. Where did you come up with that Tunera?

I think that the main indicator of how much time your husband will spend with your kids is by how much time he spends with them now. From what you have said throughout your thread, he isn't very involved with them and never has been. Based on the what you have said NL, he may not even fight you over custody and probably won't want to keep them even when he has visitation.

Your children will adjust and have a new normal. It takes a lot more to be a father than simply sharing a home with them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's weird, because I can only think of ONE father of my DD24's friends or of my friends who DID stay in regular contact.

Here's another one. It seems bad for the women too, but you have to remember that probably 90% of all women GET at least partial custody of their kids, so the 30% of mothers below would be 30% of those who don't have primary custody. And those women were flakes to begin with.



> What percent of parents stop visiting their children at least annually after a breakup?
> 
> 47% of fathers
> 30% of mothers


http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats19.htm


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

NL, it's now occurred to your husband you're serious and that his life will be a lot harder without you. This is all about him wanting his comfortable life continued. The odds that he would follow through with all the hard work that counseling requires -- and make permanent changes -- are highly unlikely. 

You have nothing to feel guilty about in wanting out. Your girls have already seen a lot as it is. A normal home, with all that involves, is what they need and that's what you can give them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I just feel so depressed. It's normal, I know. It'll pass.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Ending a marriage is hard. That's why so many people stay. It's easier. But once you're out you will wonder why you waited so long.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I talked to my sister and told her everything. She's being so wonderful. Encouraged me to take a deep breath and process. No rush. I couldn't talk long because kids were running in and out. We'll talk more this weekend. She was one I thought would encourage me to stay and try again. She probably will, but hearing her respond with love and support first and foremost was wonderful.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> He said today that he wants to start therapy to fix the marriage. Unbelievable. I _think_ that's just his way of putting the guilt of the split onto me--because now, _he_ wants to work on things and I'm the one who's saying no. I don't know. I told him that I can't do that anymore. I just don't have it in me. I dont' want to. Guilt.


What a maroon. And who gives a flip what anyone thinks about who's 'responsible?' Anyone who MATTERS will know that you married an assh*le and you needed to leave him. Anyone else doesn't matter. And you'll never see them again once you divorce. So good riddance.

And if your sister tries to talk you into staying, email her all the articles about abusive and narcissistic men.


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## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

It is probably better to split sooner rather than later, or to stay in a loveless marriage. The kids will adjust. They will learn their main home is with you and that they can visit their dad. Hopefully he will keep any commitments he makes with them, but that is out of your control. Maybe he will surprise you, and want them often. If he goes the legal route, he will gain the right to have them overnight. Again, just take things one step at a time, live in the present and plan your future.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Because my marriage was a very long one, I faced considerable opposition from everyone I knew when I said I was getting out. My standard response to all was that it was my life and I wanted the opportunity to be happy and at peace for my remaining time. Most (not all) have come around now that it's getting close to two years but it didn't matter to me if they did or not since they were not the ones having to deal with it. 

Always remember that it's YOUR life. If there's support, accept it with thanks. If there's criticism, ignore it and go on regardless.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I personally believe that he is trying to draw you in and manipulate you. Depending on his level of narcissism, he is highly likely doing this for show. Plus he can blame you for the marriage break-up for not giving him a chance. If you do, he will put you through a cycle of confusion again.

What he does need to see is a psychiatrist. MC will not do any good. They will try and convince you to give him another chance, but you are getting the same man also. He will lie and manipulate to garner sympathy. It is his modus operandi. What he is doing is standard for him.

Your sister will not understand unless she has actual experience living with a person like that. She will not give you any good advice if she wants you to remained married. She has no reference to operate from. She will most likely believe that this is best for all involved.

As for your children. have the six year old see a child therapist. Do not let her constantly push your boundaries. You need to keep those behavior limits set.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> I personally believe that he is trying to draw you in and manipulate you. Depending on his level of narcissism, he is highly likely doing this for show. Plus he can blame you for the marriage break-up for not giving him a chance. If you do, he will put you through a cycle of confusion again.
> 
> What he does need to see is a psychiatrist. MC will not do any good. They will try and convince you to give him another chance, but you are getting the same man also. He will lie and manipulate to garner sympathy. It is his modus operandi. What he is doing is standard for him.


Yes yes yes to all of this. This summer he was in his home country visiting family and friends, and when he got back, I eventually asked him if he told anyone there about what's going on. He said no. I asked him why, and he said it didn't occur to him to tell anyone. I said, you mean when people asked how I was, you said great? And he said yes. I don't know if this is considered being too pushy (I absolutely feel like I have no idea anymore of what's acceptable to talk about in a marriage and what's not), but I just couldn't believe that I was falling apart and people asked him, "how's the fam" he said "great!" His best friends! Finally I said, even philip? He's a friend of the both of us, he stayed with us for about a week this summer, and he's a good, honest guy. he said, well I don't think philip can handle that news (??). I said he's an adult, I'm sure he'll survive. Then he said, well I don't want him to think I'm getting divorced. Which, I dunno, I THINK is the truth of the situation, but at the same time, everytime I dig further with him I get a slightly different answer, how can I know what's true? If I asked more questions, I would have gotten more different answers. That said, my impression has always been that he cares more about how he looks to other people than anything else.


Anyway, struggling a lot these days. It's just so much loss to process. The realization that I wasn't loved for so long hurts. And I feel so _used_. We were having sex for years and years under false pretenses. I thought I was loved, and I wasn't. He lied to me to get what he wanted. My body, my time, my work. He hasn't tried to apologize, just continues as though nothing ever happened, talking about things "we" should do this summer. I'm having horrible nightmares every night, constantly near tears. This is so hard.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

The fact is, the reality of your situation is that he is incapable of open honest communication. Acceptance is hard, and all the pain you suffered through, it is hard to give that up because you have invested so much of yourself into the marriage. That is why bad marriage is still hard to give up, the investments involved.

TBH, he is probably never going to be able to be in a healthy relationship with anyone. He is too dysfunctional. If he is narcissistic or has some levels of psychopathy, it is unlikely that he is unable to change, and it is not his fault. Some people do not have healthy brains.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The divorce process is very hard. That's just reality. I didn't begin healing until mine was final. 

Your husband doesn't want anyone knowing he's divorcing because he thinks they will judge him and feel he failed. It's all about image for him. 

Talk to him as little as possible,and not about anything personal. Remind yourself every day that the end is in sight and soon you won't be dealing with this. 

Once you're out of the stress, you'll wonder why you waited so long.

PS
He's making plans for this summer with you because he doesn't believe you'll go through with it. Ignore him when he says stuff like that. Walk away.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Last night I dreamt that I bought a beautiful old inn, right on the beach. My girls and I were going to live there and run it in the summer for extra income (I'm a teacher). It had 5 guest rooms and was old, large, and just beautiful. It was the beginning of a new life for us, and I was so happy. On my first night there, I accidentally burnt it down. IRL of course I'd have insurance, but in the dream it was a total loss.

It's the best dream I've had all week, so that part's good, but I can't help but feel it's an allegory for my life right now. Or, not my life, but my fears about being on my own. That I'm hoping for something better and beautiful, but I'm going to destroy it. 

An inn on the beach with my girls would be wonderful though. Hm, maybe it wasn't such a terrible dream after all...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Fears are completely normal because you're talking about a major life change and that's always scary. I told myself that, no matter what, I would be better off because I would be at peace with my life. And I am. You will be too.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Are you sure we aren't married to the same man? Reading thru this thread the reactions your husband had were the same as my husband. I stopped confiding in husband because of his reactions. He wasn't there for my support and infact, if anything, he would throw me under the bus in a heart beat.

Like you I wanted the intimacy, I craved it and I would go to him for sex just to have some little something that indicated to me that he cared. At some point though I realized how pathetic it was that I was seeking this man who could not give in return. No matter how much we talked nothing ever changed and my needs were unmet.

I lived in fear for many years, fears of all sorts. I didn't want to disappoint and hurt my children or my parents by leaving this man. I was willing to put everyone's needs before my own but I could not see it. I was trying to please everyone thinking that it would make a difference in the long run and all it did was make me more miserable in my situation.

Husband and I have been together now for 26 years. Finally with all the hurt I have been thru I realize I have to save myself. I have been thru 3 years of counseling, me one-on-one with a counselor and have learned about my family dynamics that has lead me to be who I am. I think this was very important and very helpful for me. I have been codependent and currently working on boundaries.

If I stay I realize that I have to accept that there will be no intimacy in this marriage, husband is not capable. He wants sex and for him I think that is enough connection but I need conversation, open honest conversation. I do need integrity like mentioned in a previous post in this thread. These are the tings that make me thrive. Having (good) sex for me needs that trust and mutual give and take which has been lacking in this marriage.

NorthernLights, I am still a work in progress but I would strongly suggest that you do a couple things to try and change your situation if you are planning to stay. Counseling for yourself, work on you.....your career and what you want from your life, social engagements with friends, walks with the dog, take up an art class, whatever as long as it is for you. When you are dealing with husband, think "Am I doing this to benefit me or am I doing this to please husband?" I have done this over and again to help guide my own actions. Stop being responsible for him and his feelings, stop trying to please. he has to stand on his own two feet. And I would also start learning how to talk to him differently....this for me has been the hardest part and I had to let go of my fears to be able to do this. Example, when he left the room when you were talking to him about the fatty cyst, don't let it go. If he realizes he can walk away from you and you allow this there is nothing to keep him from doing it again. You have to be clear to express what you want from him....."Hubby, when I am speaking to you I need for you to listen and it would mean a great deal to me if you could say something in return. When you walk away or do not respond you are sending a message to me that you do not care about me and my concerns." I had this very same little conversation with my husband just recently. he did get defensive and said, "So every time you say something you want me to go into this long analytical conversation?" (This is his resistance.) Calmly I said, "No, I just would like some sort of input from you so that I know you have heard me, it shows me you care." He has been doing it.

We were out with friends last night and the man is very conversational, educated and can speak on various subjects, he asks questions which shows his interest in the topic at hand, very engaging. My husband is sitting there saying, "uhuh!" (Okay, maybe a slight exaggeration.) You'd think that husband could see what engaging in conversation looks like by seeing this in our friend but he never gets it. You'd think husband would be able to relate to women easier, he had no brothers, 3 sisters and yet he lacks compassion and very self-centered.

Change for you begins with you lady. Do it for you, do it for the kids and do not feel guilty. Please yourself!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I'm sorry it all feels so similar to you, it's a horrible thing to go through. I'm guessing that you also had low self-esteem going into the marriage, which is why you put up with the horrible treatment for so long? I'm sure it's no coincidence that people like us wind up with people like our husband's. 

I have been in counseling for a year now, and it has helped a lot. A LOT. As I get stronger and more confident, I'm feeling more and more certain that I'm going to divorce soon. H and I basically now have the marriage his parents had, and they divorced when he graduated high school. That realization has weighed on me heavily lately. I'd rather put the girls through a divorce now than resign them to marriages like this. It sucks that these appear to be our options, but I am at a place where I feel like I've done everything I can. I've accepted that a perfect person could have done more, but I'm not perfect and that's an impossible standard, so I have to stop comparing myself to some kind of ideal. I've done all that I, with my hardest, most honest efforts, am capable of doing. That's just something I've come to peace with lately.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

It is hard to say when it should be applicable to sever bonds. Hindsight is 20/20. There is a lot to consider when severing any bonds.

If I were your therapist, I would say you should divorce since I would be an advocate for your well-being. He was a poor choice in a mate, and he proved not to be the mate he advertised himself to be. He lacks a lot of EQ,emotional intelligence. In turn he lacks empathy. He shows low MPI, male paternal investment, he will not be a good father or role model for your children to be around. Even if he gets shared custody, the time your children share with you alone can act as a counter balance to his influence. Together as a unit, you will have less energy to be more of an effective mother. He would emotionally neglect and abuse you. That would take time energy to counter, which drains more energy away from you being a healthy role model.


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## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

Most adults do not change, and certainly not unless they desperately want to. Most likely, he is who he intends to be, and you are meant to accommodate it. And he likely expects that, as you always have, apparently.

It is up to you whether you will continue to do so. If he will not willingly take part in joint counseling, you are better off leaving/divorcing than living the rest of your life in a setting that makes you so unhappy.

I always go by the saying "When people show you who they are, believe them". 
To me, actions speaks louder than words.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Jane139 said:


> I always go by the saying "When people show you who they are, believe them".
> To me, actions speaks louder than words.


Buried in this thread somewhere I think I wrote about the time, when I was absolutely losing my mind over the sleep deprivation and H wouldn't take the girls so I could sleep, that I asked him for an extravagant christmas present. He's not much of a gift-giver, and I'm not into material things, so it was never a problem. But that year, I told him he needed the price tag to show how much he loved me, because I wasn't feeling it. I picked out something that cost 1% of what we had in savings. Kind of a lot, yes, but nothing that we'd really even notice out of the bank account. I made sure he understood that, as out of character as it was for me, I NEEDED the price tag to reflect how much he loved me.

He bought me something that cost 1/20 of what I'd picked out. 

I was SO SURE he'd either not taken my request seriously, or didn't understand that I really meant it. Now I realize he did. His actions honestly reflected how he felt about me. I just refused to believe it. 

I won't make that mistake ever again.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

northernlights said:


> Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I'm sorry it all feels so similar to you, it's a horrible thing to go through. I'm guessing that you also had low self-esteem going into the marriage, which is why you put up with the horrible treatment for so long? I'm sure it's no coincidence that people like us wind up with people like our husband's.
> 
> I have been in counseling for a year now, and it has helped a lot. A LOT. As I get stronger and more confident, I'm feeling more and more certain that I'm going to divorce soon. H and I basically now have the marriage his parents had, and they divorced when he graduated high school. That realization has weighed on me heavily lately. I'd rather put the girls through a divorce now than resign them to marriages like this. It sucks that these appear to be our options, but I am at a place where I feel like I've done everything I can. I've accepted that a perfect person could have done more, but I'm not perfect and that's an impossible standard, so I have to stop comparing myself to some kind of ideal. I've done all that I, with my hardest, most honest efforts, am capable of doing. That's just something I've come to peace with lately.


In my situation I saw the man I married as a savior at the time that we met. I had been dealing with a boyfriend who turned out to be a stalker and my husband kind of rescued me from that. I did not see all the lies at first and I completely supported my husband. It was a very slow dawning for me.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

northernlights said:


> Buried in this thread somewhere I think I wrote about the time, when I was absolutely losing my mind over the sleep deprivation and H wouldn't take the girls so I could sleep, that I asked him for an extravagant christmas present. He's not much of a gift-giver, and I'm not into material things, so it was never a problem. But that year, I told him he needed the price tag to show how much he loved me, because I wasn't feeling it. I picked out something that cost 1% of what we had in savings. Kind of a lot, yes, but nothing that we'd really even notice out of the bank account. I made sure he understood that, as out of character as it was for me, I NEEDED the price tag to reflect how much he loved me.
> 
> He bought me something that cost 1/20 of what I'd picked out.
> 
> ...


It makes me dissapointes how can someone take his/her spouse and family for granted for so long. i wish my W had 1/5 of your patience/tolerance.

Maybe in your H some people because of their upbringing and character are unable to feel real love for others. His loss.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm sorry your wife wasn't willing to work harder Regretf. I've seen so many situations here (and IRL), where people seem to give up so quickly. There are so many inspiring people on this site who've worked so hard and turned their marriages around. I used to think that if I found this place sooner, maybe I could have too. I got the advice all along that if I was going to save my marriage, I had to be willing to actually lose it. Put real divorce on the table and follow through if H didn't change. And I was never willing to do that, because I refused to put the kids through it. Why get real about divorce when it's the one thing I _don't _want, you know? But now, I am ready to put that on the table, but I can't imagine ever getting back to a place where I can love, trust, and respect my H again. It's paradoxical, to be in a situation where you have to risk losing your marriage if you're going to save it. In hindsight, that's what I should have done. But that's just not me. Well, if anyone reads through this one day and sees themselves in me circa 2009, with a spouse who DOES NOT GET IT, go with the shock technique.


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## WasHappyatOneTime (Nov 26, 2012)

northernlights said:


> I'm sorry your wife wasn't willing to work harder Regretf. I've seen so many situations here (and IRL), where people seem to give up so quickly. There are so many inspiring people on this site who've worked so hard and turned their marriages around. I used to think that if I found this place sooner, maybe I could have too. I got the advice all along that if I was going to save my marriage, I had to be willing to actually lose it. Put real divorce on the table and follow through if H didn't change. And I was never willing to do that, because I refused to put the kids through it. Why get real about divorce when it's the one thing I _don't _want, you know? But now, I am ready to put that on the table, but I can't imagine ever getting back to a place where I can love, trust, and respect my H again. It's paradoxical, to be in a situation where you have to risk losing your marriage if you're going to save it. In hindsight, that's what I should have done. But that's just not me. Well, if anyone reads through this one day and sees themselves in me circa 2009, with a spouse who DOES NOT GET IT, go with the shock technique.


Stop beating yourself up.

The teacher only appears when the student is ready.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

northernlights said:


> I'm sorry your wife wasn't willing to work harder Regretf. I've seen so many situations here (and IRL), where people seem to give up so quickly. There are so many inspiring people on this site who've worked so hard and turned their marriages around. I used to think that if I found this place sooner, maybe I could have too. I got the advice all along that if I was going to save my marriage, I had to be willing to actually lose it. Put real divorce on the table and follow through if H didn't change. And I was never willing to do that, because I refused to put the kids through it. Why get real about divorce when it's the one thing I _don't _want, you know? But now, I am ready to put that on the table, but I can't imagine ever getting back to a place where I can love, trust, and respect my H again. It's paradoxical, to be in a situation where you have to risk losing your marriage if you're going to save it. In hindsight, that's what I should have done. But that's just not me. Well, if anyone reads through this one day and sees themselves in me circa 2009, with a spouse who DOES NOT GET IT, go with the shock technique.


I'm sorry too Northernlights. I believe after erading your thread that your H is uncapable of feeling love for anyone else but himself, a shame.

I wish i ahd found out about this site before i moved out of the house. Yes i have read many great stories of people that have turned it around, but you need two things, three things for that: Patience, will and more importantly LOVE.


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## WasHappyatOneTime (Nov 26, 2012)

Regretf said:


> I'm sorry too Northernlights. I believe after erading your thread that your H is uncapable of feeling love for anyone else but himself, a shame.
> 
> I wish i ahd found out about this site before i moved out of the house. Yes i have read many great stories of people that have turned it around, but you need two things, three things for that: Patience, will and more importantly LOVE.


He doesn't love himself at all.

People who love themselves don't behave this way.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

WasHappyatOneTime said:


> He doesn't love himself at all.
> 
> People who love themselves don't behave this way.


I 100% believed 15 years ago that I could fix this by loving him. This is why 24-year-olds should think twice before marrying their first serious boyfriend.


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## WasHappyatOneTime (Nov 26, 2012)

northernlights said:


> I 100% believed 15 years ago that I could fix this by loving him. This is why 24-year-olds should think twice before marrying their first serious boyfriend.


If you hate yourself, how do you feel about someone who cares for you and attempts to meet your needs?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

WasHappyatOneTime said:


> If you hate yourself, how do you feel about someone who cares for you and attempts to meet your needs?


Not enlightened into the joys and righteousness of love, at least in this case. 

I still don't know that I even exist as a discrete individual to him. It's like he's stuck, emotionally, in toddlerhood. If that's not the case, and he really does understand that I have needs that he just refuses to acknowledge, then it's a much darker picture.

This is the feedback I wanted from the marriage counselor. I don't remember what kind of therapist she was, her credentials were in german. I've just felt strongly that if he can't, that's one thing. If he won't, that feels more dangerous. 

Today I'm home sick. Girls are home sick too, mostly because the older is still recovering and the younger is difficult to get out the door. H didn't even get out of bed until 7, I was sick, so no one got her to school. Then he announced at noon that he was going next door to watch the basketball game. I asked him to feed the girls lunch first, because his assumption was that if I'm home, I'm taking care of them, sick or not. 

This refusal to step up and be a parent worries me. Is he really incapable of it, or just punishing me? In either case, will he be a safe parent to care for them alone when we're divorced??


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## WasHappyatOneTime (Nov 26, 2012)

Can't vs. Won't

It's almost "always" the 2nd

However, if we're not tuned into the impact our emotions play on our behavior... if we refuse to manage ourselves and our emotional lives... it's difficult to tell the difference.

Truly "feeling" like you can't actually is an immature "won't"


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I suppose it doesn't matter much either way. This is why I've kept working for so long--there was no way I could share custody with him two years ago. Now, the kids can do a lot more to take care of themselves.

I haven't gotten them into therapy yet, but I'm going to talk to my therapist about it next week. They need it. Younger one is frequently asking why we can't get along (even though we don't fight. Obviously the lack of affection is bothering them). I try to answer their questions honestly without making them feel anxious. The other day, I'd gotten frustrated with H when he was asking me about Friday's afterschool plans even though it was Wednesday and we were in the 5 minutes from getting out the door crunch. When the little one asked in the car that morning why we didn't get along, I told her I would try harder. I said instead of using an annoyed voice, I should have calmly said, "I'm too busy to talk about this right now. Can you make the girls' lunches instead." And the big one said, "That's what you DID say!" I didn't even remember that! I asked what he said, and she said he asked me about Friday again. 

I had to laugh. They don't miss a thing! At least I modeled patience and a request for the help that I needed instead of just getting snippish. But it's too bad they had to see him ignore that (again!). Oh well. Hopefully they one day learn to take the good and leave the bad. We talk a lot about everything. I hope that helps.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

We were supposed to have a joint session with my therapist yesterday but she had to reschedule, so it'll be wednesday. He hasn't brought up us or our situation since he told me he doesn't love me, and hasn't for a long time. I'm hoping at the therapist's, he'll be able to express how he really feels, or figure out whether that's even possible. Then she'll help us figure out next steps, which I think we've agreed are physically separating. He's leaving to visit his parents for 3 weeks (I wanted a month, he refused because he doesn't like being there for that long and didn't want to miss my nephew's first birthday. I think honestly, H likes my brother more than me. They're very close friends, and he's afraid of losing that.)

Anyway, that'll give us 3 weeks apart to reflect/act on what we decide on wednesday. When I asked him last if he was going to move out and when, he said he wanted to stay through the summer. I said I didn't think dropping a divorce on the kids right at the beginning of the school year was fair. He hadn't considered the kids. We need this appointment so badly!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He's pushing it off into the future because he doesn't want to deal with it. Separating as soon as school is out would give your children a chance to begin coming to terms with things before school starts back. Doing it his way will complicate the process. 

I'm sure he hopes you will change your mind and he won't have to do anything.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

He's a master of denial, that's for sure. I'm 100% sure that he would live like this indefinitely if I didn't push for resolution. Even sleeping in separate bedroom. When he said his preference is to stay married until the youngest goes to college, I asked him if he really wanted to go 10 more years without sex (it's been almost 1 at this point). He said, oh well I didn't consider that. We've not had sex in almost a year and he hasn't considered that??!! Am I really crazy, or his his behavior just making me feel like I am? I've lost so much of my internal compass, it's dizzying, bewildering, and depressing. I can see that the more time that goes by, the more I get confused. But that's making it so much harder to feel like divorce is the right option. Now I'm at the point where I think most people are either unhappy or choose to delude themselves. Will separating just exchange one kind of lonliness for another? I'm not sure I'll be able to convince myself it'll be a net benefit to anyone...


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Can you go through another 10 years of this and be mentally healthy at the end? From what you posted, high probability of unlikely.

You do not want to waste years of your life living in this type of environment. It will change you for the worse. Unless he wants an open marriage, where the two of you find other people to be your primary relationship. 

Staying for the kids will put your misery upon them. It is better to have one healthy parent present than none.

Do not trust his words either like you did in the past. He is capable of saying one thing, and doing another. If he wants to change, watch his pattern of behavior over a six month period of time or more.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Don't let his craziness convince you that you aren't doing the best thing for you and your daughters by getting out. He has some serious issues. 

You don't realize (and won't until you're out of it) just how much his craziness affects you. You will never have a calm and peaceful and happy life as long as you live with him.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I really appreciate your honest feedback. People who know is IRL only see this super nice guy. Today he spent 3 hours helping a friend with a job. I fluctuate between feeling like maybe I'm getting this ALL WRONG, and then remember something and knowing I'm not.

I told him a few months back, maybe 4 or 5 when I was really struggling with everything, that I spend most nights before I fall asleep thinking about killing myself, then thinking that if we hadn't had kids I'd have no trouble just walking away, then reminding myself that the kids will be much happier with divorced parents than with a mother who committed suicide, and the cycle wraps up and I fall asleep (yes, I'm seeing a therapist. And I dont' really want to kill myself. I get really depressed when I'm tired, but always wake up feeling much better.) But anyway, I told him, because I still thought I could make him understand how much I can't tolerate things the way they are, and that maybe he'd care. But, of course not. He didn't say much at the time, if anything. And he never asked again if I was feeling better or still having depressive thoughts. I understand how messed up this sounds, but it's one of the things I can point to to myself and say "no, he's definitely not acting like a caring spouse. I'm not making all of this up."

And the kids, I know. The big one was telling me a few weeks ago how she came up with an idea to make sure she doesn't marry someone who doesn't do any housework (at least she's not planning to repeat the dynamic?).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What was her idea (to make sure she doesn't marry a guy who won't do housework)? You could take that and sell it and get rich!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

She's going to require that he live by himself, no roommates, then evaluate his housekeeping skills. If it's messy, he's done! I thought her control for potentially confounding variables (no roommates) was pretty good experimental design for a 9 year old!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow, that is amazing! Tell her you told someone about her idea and they were very proud of her.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you, I will! She's an amazing little girl.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Joint session with the therapist I've been seeing today. H was able to be more honest than he's ever been and told her that having kids he truly cares for has shown him that he never truly cared about me. Also said he's not good at identifying how he feels, which is part of why he's unable to communicate. He has no idea what's going on with him, so how can he share that? When I was shocked after he said he's only just started considering what it would be like if we got divorced in the last few months, therapist pointed out that we're very different people--I can't help but think/worry about problems, and he can. 

So we left the session agreeing that we're both going to honestly consider what we want and can give. H is heading overseas for 3 weeks, we'll meet with her next month. She firmly insisted that the dynamic between us (not at all hostile or aggressive) is NOT healthy for the kids, and a decision MUST be made. She repeated that we can always change course if the first decision doesn't feel right, but status quo is the worst of all options for the kids. I needed to hear that. 

The only thing left for me, I think, is to be able to say that I want to separate no matter what H wants. That will be hard.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

northernlights said:


> Joint session with the therapist I've been seeing today. H was able to be more honest than he's ever been and told her that having kids he truly cares for has shown him that he never truly cared about me. Also said he's not good at identifying how he feels, which is part of why he's unable to communicate. He has no idea what's going on with him, so how can he share that? When I was shocked after he said he's only just started considering what it would be like if we got divorced in the last few months, therapist pointed out that we're very different people--I can't help but think/worry about problems, and he can.
> 
> So we left the session agreeing that we're both going to honestly consider what we want and can give. H is heading overseas for 3 weeks, we'll meet with her next month. She firmly insisted that the dynamic between us (not at all hostile or aggressive) is NOT healthy for the kids, and a decision MUST be made. She repeated that we can always change course if the first decision doesn't feel right, but status quo is the worst of all options for the kids. I needed to hear that.
> 
> The only thing left for me, I think, is to be able to say that I want to separate no matter what H wants. That will be hard.


Hi NL.

I believe you have tried, with all your heart you really have. You've tried more tan most WAW or WAH that i've seen or read here.

You can walk with your head high, your H didn't do his part in trying to fix this, and you can't on your own.

5 years down the road you'll see that you chose the best (of the choices you had) options.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks regretf. I'm starting to realize that there's trying as hard as you can, and then there's being delusional that there's something left that could magically work. It's getting to the point where if I keep going, I'm going to be crossing into the latter territory (if I haven't already). It's ok to work. It's not ok to stall.

Today it really hit me that H said he never really cared for me. Ouch. It's nice to know that it's not me, I'm NOT incapable of feeling loved and cared for, it just really wasn't happening. Even though he kept saying it was.

But, ugh, still going to get worse before it gets better. He left for the homeland today though, so we get three lovely weeks apart to breathe and think. 

One other nice thing was that the therapist assured us that the kids would be ok. They're loved, they're securely bonded, and we're both willing to work together to make this as easy for them as possible. And I'm a public school teacher. I have students who come from terrible, abusive backgrounds. Kids with PTSD, kids with parents in jail, kids who've been kicked out of more than one house. That sucks. But these kids are still doing alright. An amicable divorce is not those things. My girls will be alright.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The worst thing for them is an uneasy household when they don't know where things stand. When I was young, I was not a supporter of divorce when children were still at home. But I have changed my mind now that I know my son was well aware of the underlying tension for those decades after I rug-swept my ex-husband's affair and it affected his childhood. 

Children always know far more than their parents think they do. No matter how hard parents try to cover it, children pick up on it. And it makes them wonder what's next. Better to get the divorce out of the way and start creating a new life. I deeply regret not doing that when I should have.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I know they know. They've been asking why we don't kiss and whether we love each other, for a long time. I try to answer honestly, and tell them that marriage is hard but we're trying. I don't think they'll be surprised by the divorce. And they're big enough now that they'll be fairly ok with shared custody. The younger one won't want to spend the night apart, but H said he'll stay close by, and let her choose where to sleep at the end of their days together. So I think it will be ok. 

We even talked with the therapist about how the dogs will handle it (not as well as the children is the prediction). She suggested prozac for the one with separation anxiety. We floated shared custody with them too (going back and forth along with the kids maybe, so they always have that stability).


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think the dogs traveling with them is a great idea -- it will benefit everyone.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Today I'm feeling really mystified that he could say he's only really considered divorce in the last few months. We first separated 2 years ago! He really wasn't taking anything I said seriously, ever. He was just yeah yeah-ing me and instantly forgetting everything I said. When the counselor asked what he wsa feeling, he said he wanted me to be happy, that I was a great person, mother, and wife, and that I deserved to be happy. It didn't sit right with me at the time, but I couldn't put my finger on why. But now, I see that he was question dodging again. I don't think he wants to take responsibility for how he feels and say, I don't want this marriage. He wants to come across as this great, self-sacrificing guy who just wants to put my happiness first. Bullshi!T! Even if he says he really wants to work on things this time, which I'm leaning towards expecting, I will say no. A, because I don't believe that he's not just stalling, and B, because he cares more about how he looks to himself and other people than anything else. He'll say anything to get out of this looking like the poor, left-behind spouse who just wanted me to be happy. Freaking pisses me off.

PLUS, he left for 3 weeks and the house is a wreck. I have the kids, the dogs, and he's in Istanbul for the weekend before getting to his parents'. The kids stayed home from school on Firday to have a daddy/daughter day before he left, and it's just pure disaster. My happiness matters to him how again?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

He's back. Ugh. Therapist had to cancel our post-joint-session session due to a family emergency, so I haven't talked to her for 3 weeks. But, I did tell my parents everything, which has been a huge barrier for me. They're totally supportive. Of course, they're still hoping we'll be able to work on it, but they don't want me in a loveless relationship (well, my mom. My dad kind of snuck out of the kitchen during the conversation. He doesn't do emotions well. But my mom said they talked about it together later and he's supportive). 

I asked H while he was gone if he had told his family yet (which, I really think he should, given that we're going to buy his parents an apartment. Financially, we have no incentive to actually divorce, so we're on the same page about putting that off for a while. Still, they deserve to know the plan before they sign on to something as big as an apartment. It'll stay with my H in the eventual settlement, which will balance me getting the house we live in now, but still). He didn't respond to that email, of course. 

So, I guess I'll talk to my therapist this week, then figure out who's moving out when. Hopefully he will, we live next door to my parents and I cant imagine he's going to want to be here. And custody. He didn't initiate contact with the girls once while he was gone, though I did have them skype him after 2 weeks, so I'm not sure how much custody he'll actually want.

Ugh, this is all making me sick. I'm down to 112 lbs at 5' 6". I feel like it's all too much, and I'm not sure if I can do it.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Your too stress, and need time to breathe. I think you should also make a resolution, and no matter how therapy goes, you already have a goal in mind of either moving on or not. Your mind could change in the future, but there is outside pressure to still make it work.

Prioritize yourself as well. Other concerns are being a priority, and you need to put focus on yourself. You need time and a break from your stress and anxiety.

You need to be mentally healthy as well as physically healthy to handle the problems that are coming. I would not trust him either, and I would not even trust any changes he makes. He has shown you that he will say something or try for a while before reverting. It would take someone like that years to work through some of those issues if he does work at it.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm not even sure at this point how to get healthy enough to get through the next year. I'll talk to my therapist about anti-anxiety or anti-depressant medication, but I hate taking things. I've tried adding in exercise but I started to lose more weight. I have such a hard time eating when my stomach is always in knots. 

I did take the girls with me to visit family and friends while he was gone over our spring break. I was wishy-washy on whether I should go out of the way to see my old high school bestie, but I'm so, so glad I did. It was so fun to see her, and she has a new little one that I got to meet and snuggle with. Then the girls and I continued on to family and other friends, and just had the best week. I drove home (8 hours!) and I was just so happy the whole day. I felt so loved. It helped me realize that feeling loved is just the best thing, and I miss it, and I want it. But then I've felt so, so depressed since then, thinking about how far I am from that in my real life. Plus, my job is super unstable. Next year is locked in, but beyond that is a big question mark. I'm trying not to stress about that too much, because it could be better in the long run if I get cut and have to move somewhere closer to the people who love me. My parents are here of course, but my mom says if I go, they'll go too, they're feeling in the mood for a change anyway. Also, we've got significant savings. But growing up poor makes me feel nervous about going into that.

I dunno, anti-depressants? It's only finally gotten warm here where I am after a long cold winter, maybe just giving that a few days to settle in will help. 


You're right that it would take years for H to really change. When we saw the first therapist, that's exactly what she said.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

You should get more days like that, where you spend it with love ones. Changing an environment has beneficial effects on our minds. The people we surround ourselves with is another factor.

I have a social network when it comes to my career, and it helps open doors and opportunities that I would not have. I have a friendship with my college professors, and through them, connections.

Learn the art of being mindful, it will help focus the self in the present. Perhaps medication would be helpful until you get the necessary tools to do without, or circumstances change.

No matter how things turn out, remember you have people whom love you, and will be your support while you get back on your feet. You do not have to carry that burden alone, and if someone you care about is in need of help, I am sure you would help out. Sometimes being wise means something is beyond our capacity to handle, and it is okay to lean on others for support. Sometimes our pride and ego get in the way of what is the best for us.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I took a mild dose of Paxil for awhile and I couldn't even tell I was on anything. The only change was that I started to feel more confident, and more energetic to get things done.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> I took a mild dose of Paxil for awhile and I couldn't even tell I was on anything. The only change was that I started to feel more confident, and more energetic to get things done.


I need that energy. I'm falling asleep by 9 every night, and can barely get anything done after 7. I could sleep 10 hours a night, which I know is also a sign of depression.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Fight tonight, I can't stop crying. I can't do this. It feels like nothing will ever be ok again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Move out. Rent a room in some old lady's house. There's another poster who rented a room from a rich old lady, on the lake, and she was so grateful for the company that she's adopted his kids, bakes for him, takes care of him...he's rarely been happier.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Dude, I'd love a surrogate wife to take care of me and the kids! I'm feeling much better today, I guess the ups and downs are normal. 

H said last night that he wants us both to go to therapy and work on things, that's what set me off. Of course that's what he "wants," I knew that's what he would say. I got so angry and yelled at him, and the girls heard, so I felt like complete and utter sh!t and so depressed.

But he actually admitted, when I pushed him to, that he DID walk 15 feet in front of me on purpose while we lived in Europe. He "doesn't know why," but he did it on purpose, then lied and said it wasn't happening. I'm slowly acknowledging that what he did to me was abuse. And not caring that sex was painful for me, REFUSING to use lube, and not stopping when I said no is rape. I'm not going to rug sweep all of that and so much more. I can't. Staying is not healthy for me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

northernlights said:


> I'm slowly acknowledging that what he did to me was abuse. And not caring that sex was painful for me, REFUSING to use lube, and not stopping when I said no is rape. I'm not going to rug sweep all of that and so much more. I can't. Staying is not healthy for me.


I would print this out and keep it in your purse. Take it out and read it every day or two.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I guess it's totally logical that he expects me to rug sweep. It's all I've ever done! I deeply regret not knowing how to set boundaries and deal with issues in healthier ways than rug sweeping. I had no concept of how to require that he acknowledge bad behavior and what he could do to repair the relationship when it did happen. All I ever heard was forgive and forget, instantly. I beat myself up for so long when I stopped being able to do that! Forgive and forget is great for little things, but a life-destroyer for the big stuff. 

Oh well, live and learn. That's still good advice!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It's not surprising that he'd want to "work things out". He has everything to lose and nothing to gain in a divorce. He contributes very little and has all the benefits of a wife, and basically does what he pleases. It's a great deal for him, why would he want to give that up?

Unfortunately that means living with what you've got.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What I found most helpful during my divorce was remembering the bad times. That ensured I wouldn't be tempted to give him another chance in the slight hope that he would change. In reality, change is just too hard for most people and, while they say they'll change, most of the time they don't. 

Now that he sees his easy life ending, of course he's going to want therapy. And he's going to continue to push for it because things have always gone his way until now. Be prepared for him not to give up. Just keep repeating you're done. And take lots of deep breaths. They really do help. I know this is tough but you'll get through it -- one step at a time.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

He does not love you as a partner should, and he probably wants and needs you around out of convenience.

He does not acknowledge his bad behavior,and when you get hurt by him, he tries manipulating you into staying. It is a terrible cycle that you are in. And you need to remember that it is a cycle.

He uses you. The rape was just him using your body for sexual release. He neglects you until you raise your voice, and then he gives empty promises. Trust the pattern, not the words.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you guys. I know I must sound like a broken record, but it's so hard to break this pattern. I can see how he won't. I mean, there's all motivation in the world for me to change things, but it's so hard to react differently than I always have. If it's working for him, why would he bother?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ACTIONS, NOT WORDS.

Ok?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Meeting again with my therapist and H on Thursday. She and I met alone last week, it was good. She thinks H desperately needs to see a therapist on his own, and wants me to consider delaying the physical separation until he gets that started. Her honest opinion is that he needs time to build some skills to be a stronger father and better parent the kids through a divorce. I fully agree, but it's not what I want. Logistically though, it could take him at least a month to find a place, so it's not like he's going to move out tomorrow anyway. I really suspect that he's only going to tell the new therapist what he thinks she wants to hear. 

After that fight we had a week or so ago, DD9 asked if we were going to get divorced. I told her we were struggling, but we were trying our best to make it work. She said, "if you get divorced, I won't have a father anymore." I told her YES she'll always have a father who loves her more than anything, but ****. She knows how emotionally absent he is, and she's probably right. Maybe he'll be one of those parents who blooms after a divorce. But I guess I have been fooling myself all along that I've helped their relationship. They know.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep, the kids see the truth.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

A few weeks ago we were discussing possible separation arrangements, and h said he envisioned having the kids after school (he works from home) then coming to my house for dinner and leaving in the evening. At first I said no way (he really is only married to me for my cooking, and preserving his meals is going to be his number one concern), but the more I think about it, is this so bad? He DOES NOT cook or clean. He doesn't do basic care like changing sheets or washing clothes. I don't think I'll like the way he cares for the girls at his place, so the more they're in my care, the better. They don't see him in the mornings as it stands too because he gets up right before we leave, so this could be a good way to keep things somewhat normal for them. I also do all the bedtime stuff, they say goodnight to him when we go upstairs and that's it. So, yeah id have to see him at dinner, and keep feeding him, but maybe that's a small price to pay for minimal upset? At least for the first year while they adjust? Am I crazy for entertaining this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MAYBE for the first year. But what happens when you start dating someone else? Someone else who won't KEEP dating you as long as your ex is practically living there and you're meeting his needs.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

There is a flaw in your plan, it does not force him to grow up or change, and you will have this problem again in a years time.

You should instead keep track if he can handle being a father without you being a crutch.

The more he relies on you, the harder for him to leave when the time comes. You have been moving the line and he will keep taking advantage of what you offer and try manipulating to get more. He remains at an emotional distance, and manipulates people to keep them in his life. You really need to escape him in order to heal and get some needed distance. You need to be the counter of his dysfunction and you cannot be healthy with him around.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree. That plan doesn't benefit you and could confuse the children. Better to keep some distance between you. I doubt that he's going to stop trying to manipulate you into continuing to make his life easy. Be prepared.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Tomorrow is our 11 year anniversary. I told him in counseling today that I am not willing to consider reconciliation, and I want a divorce.

I'm at work now and it's all I can do to not cry all day.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm sorry, Northernlights. I know this is tough for you and it will be until you're free of him. 

It's a very hard process and certainly it's nothing any of us felt we would ever be facing. But I know you'll get through it and come out better on the other side.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thank you. I couldn't do this without this board. I would still be stuck in the same old patterns, rug-sweeping, putting up with everything thinking it was the best thing for the kids. 

The therapist is good, though. She's not letting us off the hook just yet. We're going to continue therapy together to work on rebuilding trust, forgiveness, and a friendship to form the basis of our co-parenting relationship. Even that is honestly going to be so hard for me.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Hey all, it's been a while, but I have a nice update: STBXH has secured a rental 2 houses over. We continued marriage/co-parenting therapy over the summer, and have been able to put a plan in place that puts the kids front and center. We haven't told them yet about the separation, but the little one has been in therapy and the bigger one is starting soon. We'll tell them about two weeks before he moves out, which will probably be over columbus weekend. Really excited that they'll be able to freely go between the houses. We've made big strides towards being friends, and will probably continue meeting together with the therapist once a month or so through this first year.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Bump in the road. Older daughter (10) is having terrible anxiety adjusting to 5th grade. She's always been super-naturally empathetic, and I think she's picking up what's coming on some level (even though things are very calm between STBX and me. Unusually so, which she could be picking up on). Tried to get her started on an anti-anxiety, but she can't swallow the pills. Loves her therapist though, and the therapist and I will discuss whether we should tell her sooner or not. I feel bad that she's undoubtedly picking up things she doesn't understand, and can't figure out why she feels the way she does. STBX thinks it's impossible that she's clueing into the impending separation, and doesn't want to tell her sooner. 

Have finally learned that feeling guilty accomplishes nothing positive, and only channels my energy away from helping the kids. 

Still so excited that STBX has gotten the house almost next door. The fact that they'll be able to come and go freely, and won't have to worry about whether they forgot their homework or gym sneakers at one house, is such a stress-reducer for all of us. And if they sleep over at STBX's, I can still swing by and kiss them goodnight if they want. 

Unfortunately, the house is out of our price range (for the time being anyway). It's possible in a few years we could pull off buying it... But by then, the kids might be more accustomed to 2 houses, and might not need to be right there. We'll see...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A 10 year old is old enough to know the truth. You're her world and if she can't trust you to tell her the truth, who can she trust? Kids fill in the void with doubts about themselves, if you hide something.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Do you think it will be too stressful for her, though, to have a month advance notice? H can't move any sooner than Colombus weekend.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think if you ask her to help set up the new home, it will help her feel a little more in control, AND it will help her feel like his home is her home as well.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I also think you're going to be surprised by what your 10 year old already knows. I bet she won't be shocked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

We're friends with the couple who own the house, and I think they'll be awesome about letting the girls decorate the guest rooms (which will be their bedrooms). Definitely letting them "move in" over the course of the month won't be out of the question. 

The little one, I don't know how she'll react. She's 7, and still has a stormy relationship with her father. They just butt heads and don't get along. She's been looking for a new husband for me all summer. She asked one of my old friends if he'd be her new dad. We've definitely let this drag out for too long. 

At least for me though, H FINALLY said this is what he wants and has wanted for a long time. Before he left to visit his parents for a month, I told him after 15 years together, he OWED me the truth, and I wanted to hear it in his words from his mouth when he got back. And he got back, and said he just didn't feel cut out for married life.

I asked if he wanted to build an attachment with an apartment, but he said he needed more space than that, and dating would be awkward. I've also noticed that he's texting someone. He told me it's his friend's girlfriend from back in his home country. I can't read the texts because they're in German, but he says they just talk about her relationship with his friend. And, I don't even care, which just confirms to me that he's 100% gone and I'm 100% gone (not like I didn't know that already). 

I should have read his signs earlier and left, but I didn't want to go thinking he still wanted it to work, because there was still a chance. On the plus, I started taking zoloft in June, and it's helping so much. Not so stressed, not so depressed, and feeling ready for this.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your older daughter knows something's different and she's anxious as to what it means. She could be thinking her dad is moving back to Europe while the rest of you stay where you are. Better to tell her the real story now so she can get used to the idea.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

DD fearing that H might move back overseas is a good point, I hadn't thought about that. He's gone back 3 times in the past year for 3-5 weeks because his parents have needed help and he's an only child. She certainly might be afraid he'll go and not come back.

Waiting to tell them is so hard for me too. I'm meeting with my therapist this week. She also sees the girls and we were going to role-play telling them so it goes as well as possible. Cross your fingers for me.


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## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

I agree that you need to tell the kids. At ten I knew pretty much what was going on around me, and what I wasn't sure of, worried me. If she is being anxious, she is worrying, you know that.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

More things lining up. My sister told my brother for me (just wasn't sure I could without losing it), and he was SO supportive. Immediately called STBXH and said, what the heck? This is fixable! Why don't you just A, B, C... and STBX shot each suggestion down, passively but surely. No, that won't work because... No, we can't do that because... Brother and his wife offered to watch the girls for a week so we could just get away, STBX said no, thanks anyway... So brother got to see first hand what I've been dealing with and totally gets it. Feels awful, said he actually shed tears (never have I seen my brother cry). Brother and SIL will be visiting over Colombus weekend, so we will tell the girls just before that (STBX's moveout has been pushed to Nov 1). I think having their aunt and uncle next door will be immensely comforting. They'll be able to see the adults in their lives be friendly and loving with each other. They'll be able to see that some things will change, but we'll still all be a family. Thanksgiving is already slated to be held at my brother's, and he's excited STBX will still be there. 

Also, my sister said she and my brother discussed how I shouldn't make this easy on STBX by cooking him dinner and cleaning the house, since he'll be next door. I know I"m a pushover/doormat, so it's good to know I'll have them in my corner, keeping me strong. He has chosen this, and he can live with the consequences. When I'm tempted to have him over for dinner "for the kids' sakes" or keep his house clean "for them," they'll both keep me on track.

So stressed though. This is taking entirely too long. It's worth it to have H next door, but f*ck, this is pushing me to my limits.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Told the parents last night. Mother responded exactly like I thought she would, blaming me and comparing me to her sister (she says horrible things about her sister). Nice. Then she tried to backpedal and say she wasn't blaming me, then reversed again and continued to blame. My dad pretty quickly jumped in and said it takes two to tango, and then I changed the topic to how we want them to really just focus on supporting the girls.

I was raised to believe that women should be subservient to men, so any woman who considers herself and her needs to be equally important in a relationship is considered a total b**ch, lesbian, man-hater. That's honestly how I was raised. It's as awful as it is utterly ridiculous, but it still hurts to be called out by my own mom. Sigh.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Aww, mother called this morning. Said sorry she didn't hug me, she was in shock at the news, but she supports me 100%. Father called too, separately, and wants to make sure that we give the girls anything they ask for following the news. The girls are lucky to have family that will lavish them with love and attention. An d probably some presents.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Work on learning to be ok not as close to your parents, 180 them. Nice, but not emotional. It will help you in the long run.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Work on learning to be ok not as close to your parents, 180 them. Nice, but not emotional. It will help you in the long run.


You're spot on.


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