# Dealing with anger and truth



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Not sure if this belongs in one of the other forums, such as separation and divorce, or after divorce, but since I know there are a lot ex-BS's posting here, I'll push it out.

There are so many good posters here that understand the reality of affairs. When many first come on TAM, the hardcore guys (bandit, chaparral, weightlifter, mach, shaggy, etc.) will post advice and it's difficult to digest because you don't really want to believe it's true. Because if you weren't a hardcore guy before, just a good loving husband (nice guy, even), you will fall into the trap of being overly angry, clingy, and everything in between. The hardcore guys will spell it out for you. "She's no longer your sweet, loving wife, she's been trashing you behind you're back, she doesn't respect you, you're too enmeshed, you have to be willing to end a marriage to save it, etc.". It's often difficult to stay cool, calm and collected and apply the 180 to work on one's self when the person you love has essentially become a lying back-stabbing monster interested in minimizing pain and guilt, and maximizing self-image, ego kibble, and reputation. 

After hanging out here for a long time, and in the OW/OM forums, it feels like you can start to lose your mind after a while. Especially on the cheater forums. Because you can see the delusion, the justifications, the lack of boundaries, the compartmentalization, the idealization of the AP (and the AP's motives), etc. Even though they are suffering too from the highs and lows of the affair, and feeling guilty, it's still really about them. I've posted before that I was an OM, so I have some insights there, but I don't remember being as cold and calculating as some of these people. Selfish, yes. But not invasive, never reeling the WW back in. The wayward mentality I don't really know. To me, it's on a whole 'nother level. The act of betraying the person you live with, loved and have a family with. I've seen some people (a few) come around on these boards, and is inspiring. So many others.. they'll never change their story. 

I think what I'm getting at is besides being jaded, how do you just not hate your ex's given you know their psychology? How do you go from knowledge to wisdom, which in a way is to not let it get to you? Even if the ex has given apologies, what are they apologizing for? It's usually a superficial remorse, and ultimately because they feel bad for themselves. It's hard for me to see them as a person. After D-Day I was lurking on TAM and reading Not Just Friends. Reading NJF was illuminating but since it was written by a 'neutral' person (the therapist), a lot of the incriminating sordid side is left out. TAM exposes the sordidness, and very selfish, deceptive level of affairs. The OM/OW boards are almost evil to me at this point, though you do see people who start to come out of the fog, often when they are dumped or things are hitting a stalemate point. It's mostly women posters there. The MW's go back to their husbands, ostensibly their plan B, either depressed about the affair or putting the memories in a little treasure box. Many of them will not confess, and therefore will either have another A or never really repair their marriage in a meaningful way. We've seen guys come on here who found out about their wife's affair of 20 years ago, and he's as devastated as if it had been yesterday. By that time, the wife has rugswept for so many years she tells him to drop it. She thought she'd take it to her grave.

So sometimes I wonder what the hell is the point. It's hard for me to even look back with fondness at my marriage. Or to even look at my ex as a real human being. She's still clings to the old "I was unhappy and fell in love with someone else" schpiel. I don't even know how people can keep cordial relationships with cheating ex's. Civil, yes, but not cordial. Maybe they never got the full scoop of how devious their ex had been. 

Anyhow, a lot of dark wisdom on this board. A lot of positive reinforcement as well. Perhaps I just feel jaded. Even with some steps of progress in my own life, I circle back. It feels like you have to put on a hard shell and I don't necessarily want that. Being strong, yes, but not jaded. I'd like to view people as essentially good, but it's difficult when you see their underlying motivations. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Let me make an addendum:

Cheating that results from boredom or complacency in a relatively normal marriage, this is more what I am referring to.

And that cheating is probably much higher than the surveys show.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_She's still clings to the old "I was unhappy and fell in love with someone else" schpiel._

This is how she got to you in the first place, right? You described her in your other thread as a serial monogamist, which seems accurate. She's always faithful to whomever she's committed to at the time (not necessarily the person she's married to). She probably doesn't see this as a pattern of cheating at all.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

staystrong said:


> She's still clings to the old "I was unhappy and fell in love with someone else" schpiel.


You bought into it when she dumped her husband for you didn't you? Some people are just broken. You're ex is a love addict. Once she gets bored with the guy she's with, she needs to find someone else to keep that "in love" feeling going. The truth is she doesn't really understand what real love is and probably never will. 

Your relationship was built on lies. The odds were against you from day one and you simply joined the majority of other failed affair relationships. It's would of been more shocking if it actually worked out..... You seem like a better person now. Instead of pining over a serial cheater go find a peer who will give you the mutual respect you deserve.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I get the feeling of "putting on a hard shell", I'm there. It serves a purpose but in the end if you are going to be in any healthy your going to have to build enough trust to be vulnerable. Your Ex is wearing more than a shell she's got a mask on so she doesn't have to face what she did. She can make any excuse she wants, none hold water.

I doubt I'll ever have that "blind trust" that existed before. But the older I get the more I see that being in any relationship exposes you to the possibility of betrayal, hurt all that "fun" stuff. There are no perfect people. So unless you are willing to not be involved at all that risk is always there. I know that's not really a pep talk. 

When the anger fades and it does for most people (the timetable varies) but you don't want to be angry, and jaded. Since you've been burned it's going to take work. IC if you aren't inclined then try a book (The Dance Of Anger & The Dance Of Connection) both books helped me more than many therapy sessions.


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Staystrong, 

I can relate well with many things you write. I only wish I could write all I understand.

I asked my wwh the other day, while out with his male friends who have been cheated on my their wives, if it was uncomfortable for him, as he was on the opposite side? He said, "no, that we all understand how it all can happen, that we all have our stories."
Something that is hard yet for me to accept that is a norm for many people. 

What I just can not understand, just how the world of infidelity has it own life. It's own language, vocabulary, scripts. How naive my world was never being touch by it, even by friends or family.

What I wonder, how do you ever trust again? How do you build a new life again w someone else after having what one thought was their world, their dreams? A life time of history, trust & faith so betrayed? 

The hate part you speak of, I think is hate towards ourself that we feel the assault so greatly, that is changed us so much inside that the ww never quite gets... It's what we have to live with... Or "move on", but even when we "move on" , we still have to live with it. It's ours forever now.

I see on TAM people who have come before me, walked the road I am on, and have come out the otherside. I read all forums, not just the "lonely heart club band." I see advise given to men so different than to women, I see men's thread gets a lot more attention than women, and this is dishearting at times.

I dont know if TAM is a true represents the major of the world population of marriages, as I tend to think, like me, before I even enter this world of infidelity , I had no reason to sit in front of a computer and "Talk about Marriage," as I was to busy living it and my life to the fullest, to hope, to future, to trust...things as that, but Staystrong, now I'm too very jaded over things that was never before. 

It's all changed my world, my life in ways I would never have expected, ever, & very few good yet... this is for sure the hardest journey of life, as for many who have come before me... 

~sammy


----------



## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Time. You need time to move from hate to indifference. You will know that you have arrived when you no longer re-play the mind movies of her deception, when you no longer beat yourself up for missing the signs of her infidelity, when you no longer want to understand why she did what she did.

You are going through the stages of grief, just like when someone very close to us dies. There are so many conflicting emotions to process. Give yourself time to hate her. I don't think you can avoid this step to healing. You are likely blaming yourself for loving your ex ww, for missing the signs of her inability to love and be loyal to one person, and that is also difficult to process.

If you are finding that you are stuck in the anger and hate stage for too long, I would seek counseling to find exercises to move past this stage to acceptance.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

My anger no longer derives from the mind movies (sometimes, but the've faded), but yes the deception lingers. I feel like I've gone through different stages of hate, some very raw and some very cold. 

I think what bothers me at this point is her deception of everyone else, not only of her, me, and the kids. It's annoying the "good girl" image they try to achieve after doing the most deceptive things. It's almost as if you want to email the private chat sessions to everyone in her family. Hell, I know if someone had done that when I was the OM then I would have felt deeply ashamed. This is what bothers me. The fact that she neglected her chidden, and they I look at my kids and think, "wow, your mom is a narcissistic ****". But of course her mom sees herself as the main character in some kind of happiness quest / romance. It's just so disappointing and so many people go through it. It's as if I fear for my kids as much as myself. We're infidelity becomes a "norm" for them. Where their own parents can't get along. 

I've been through counseling and know some exercises. It's more existential at this point than psychological.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> Staystrong,
> 
> I can relate well with many things you write. I only wish I could write all I understand.
> 
> ...


All so very true. Yes, we hate ourselves a bit, don't we. I think the people who have enough sense to toss their WSs to the curb or kick them out probably feel less self-hate. They have more respect for themselves. Some of it is also circumstantial. For instance, if you discover it versus getting a "I'm leaving / fence sitting" confession.

I don't know how you trust again. I guess you meet someone and you're just more cautious. I know my story was rooted infidelity, but many others were not and the outcome is the same. For me, I can't use the "she's not the type" belief, because well she was. 

Yeah I never would have sought out a site like TAM before either. Or a general relationship site. It's like it all happened so fast, but of course we know the seeds must have been planted earlier. 

The men's threads are different, yes. As it has been said before, men often have smaller support groups and are feel like less of a man when their wives cheat on them. I know it's hard for women, too, but the expected behavior is that men cheat more, and more often for sex and ego. Of course, we know that's been changing for a while now. Women are on par with men, I'm on sure.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

staystrong said:


> All so very true. Yes, we hate ourselves a bit, don't we. I think the people who have enough sense to toss their WSs to the curb or kick them out probably feel less self-hate. They have more respect for themselves. Some of it is also circumstantial. For instance, if you discover it versus getting a "I'm leaving / fence sitting" confession.
> 
> I don't know how you trust again. I guess you meet someone and you're just more cautious. I know my story was rooted infidelity, but many others were not and the outcome is the same. For me, I can't use the "she's not the type" belief, because well she was.
> 
> ...


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

One other point. 

"Rainbows and unicorns"

"Fog"

"Soul mate"

We often use these in a mocking way, but this is what it's all about isn't? Not just the love feelings and hot sex, but the whole deep connection felt. You can't compete with that. Vasopressin is Marvin McFly versus the Mike Tyson of dopamine. We can be cynical about it, almost laugh at it, but it's one of those powerful forces in life. Meanwhile, we're going through our own withdrawal. No wonder the success rate is so low.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> My anger no longer derives from the mind movies (sometimes, but the've faded), but yes the deception lingers. I feel like I've gone through different stages of hate, some very raw and some very cold.
> 
> I think what bothers me at this point is her deception of everyone else, not only of her, me, and the kids. It's annoying the "good girl" image they try to achieve after doing the most deceptive things. It's almost as if you want to email the private chat sessions to everyone in her family. Hell, I know if someone had done that when I was the OM then I would have felt deeply ashamed. This is what bothers me. The fact that she neglected her chidden, and they I look at my kids and think, "wow, your mom is a narcissistic ****". But of course her mom sees herself as the main character in some kind of happiness quest / romance. It's just so disappointing and so many people go through it. It's as if I fear for my kids as much as myself. We're infidelity becomes a "norm" for them. Where their own parents can't get along.
> 
> I've been through counseling and know some exercises. It's more existential at this point than psychological.



Ah, the hypocrite going on enabled by a Narcissistic mother... 

Yeah, that has to be hard to deal with. You share history and children. You can't just forget. Working toward giving her less power over how you feel and part of that is knowing there are good women/men out there. Be a good example for your kids in other ways. They don't need to be involved in the drama but when they are old enough to know why you can't be friends with their mother, I'd hope that they empathize and understand. 

Sorry you are struggling.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> Ah, the hypocrite going on enabled by a Narcissistic mother...
> 
> Yeah, that has to be hard to deal with. You share history and children. You can't just forget. Working toward giving her less power over how you feel and part of that is knowing there are good women/men out there. Be a good example for your kids in other ways. They don't need to be involved in the drama but when they are old enough to know why you can't be friends with their mother, I'd hope that they empathize and understand.
> 
> Sorry you are struggling.


I'm not sure if it's how about I feel about her, or just all cheaters. At least the repeat offenders. I don't know. I know it's hypocritical, I try to peel back the layers of our origins and my thoughts at the time. I can see my own lewdness at the time. People on TAM have helped me with that. Again, it is more difficult when you have children together, but I'll probably get beat up again for saying that. But to get with a married woman or man with kids is just a bit twisted and sick to me. I often think the OM's can get hot and heavy with the WW's because they don't cherish them like the BH's do. They don't also seem them as the mother of their children. That's the predator side of it. Same with OW's. And I find it repulsive. 

Anyhow, end of rant. I was more interested in other's experiences than regurgitating my own.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hell, I'm jaded, and I am WITH him. And he is one of the rare truly remorseful ones. It changes your fundamental view of the world in ways that never go back to what they were. It's like 9-11 - you think in terms of 'before' and 'after'.


----------



## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Staystrong, I don't know your story but some of what you have written resonates with me. Esp. this: It's often difficult to stay cool, calm and collected and apply the 180 to work on one's self when the person you love has essentially become a lying back-stabbing monster interested in minimizing pain and guilt, and maximizing self-image, ego kibble, and reputation. 

I hate my stb-ex. I mean, really hate him as in pray for his death at least weekly. He is a lying, cheating bastard and gaslighted me for so many years (25 year marriage). He taught me not to trust myself and he was everyone's darling. Well, now he isn't. He has lost everything that is important. It wasn't once. I discovered a ten year pattern of behavior with whoever he could get it on with. It was pure entitlement, ego stroking bull****. Welp, hope he's enjoying it now. However, unlike some hardcore people here, I do not need to know every little detail. I know enough and I know just how low his lies are/were...and I also know that he is still lying and still accusing me of twisting his words. Uh, no, jackass, I have proof.

What I am concerned about is my children and myself. That hate isn't good...it is destructive. I have moved from thinking about it every hour to now, 2-3 times/week (almost 9 months after d day). I am going to be ok and life is already so much better. I have rediscovered myself and I can trust myself again. One thing though...I have no tolerance for cheaters of either gender. I also don't have much tolerance for those that stay with habitual cheaters. I get the one time stray, but after that...no, no, no. It does end up normalizing it for our children and one of my biggest motivators in moving decisively toward the divorce and getting healthy again is the need to model appropriate behavior for my teens and to let them know that they are entitled to respect, as well as show them the consequences when one disrespects and betrays his/her family.

I am trying not to be jaded. I certainly don't feel ashamed and I am very comfortable with all of my actions since D day. He is remorseful, but I don't think he will ever change his ways. He is sorry he got caught and has to see a new him in the mirror alone. He is frantically trying to recreate a positive image for himself and building a new illusion. Ultimately, he is a sad little coward who has historically overestimated every facet of himself. I look at him now and feel physically ill that I ever could have been with such a POS.


----------

