# Wife came clean, what next



## Amos

Been married for over 9 years. One child. Wife is European. We met there over 15 years ago when I was living in Europe. Years 7 and 8 had some rough patches regarding my wife's happiness--she talked about a potential separation and sought counseling on her own. At times, I suspected that she was cheating but never had any concrete evidence. 

The last year of marriage has probably been our best. She is completely committed to our marriage and it feels like we are newlyweds again. 

Two weeks ago we went out to dinner and she told me that she needed to tell me something. Two summers ago, she went home to Europe for three weeks to visit family with my son and cheated on me three times with two different guys in a three week period after meeting them at bars. She says it was random, no strings attached sex outside of the bars---she doesn't even know the last names of the guys and never contacted or was contacted by them afterwards.

She says she needed to tell me because I am such a good husband and father. She says she wanted to experiment was what we have. She says the physical affairs weren't good and she felt emotionally empty afterwards instead because she was afraid of missing out on life and that the one night stands made her realize that all she wanted of getting the fulfillment she thought she needed.

Obviously this hit me like a bombshell, but our marriage is great right now and has been for the last 18 months. We spent a week talking about what happened every night and she seemed very forthright in answering any questions that I had. She says she doesn't want to talk about it anymore and that there is nothing to hide. She was tested for STDs and seems to be doing everything right.

Have I done enough? Do I dismiss this as a summer of bad decisions" That is what she calls it. I am essentially happy, although the thoughts of what happened still cause some pain for me. She says she doesn't want to talk about it but it helps me when we do. So I am afraid that if I keep talking about it, we can't move forward.

Help.


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## michzz

So she wants a pass after unloading this bombshell on you?

I wouldn't believe she's done looking for strange at all.

More likely is that someone knows about what she did, and could have told you.

Sure, she wants to stage manage your reaction and her disclosures.

Why? That is the question I have.

No good answers to that.

I am sorry, but it doesn't take two one nite stands in 3 weeks to realize what she already knew.

There is much more to this than she has told you.

So she wants to just move on like it didn't happen? No suggestions for how to atone for it? De nada?

Pretty outrageous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dowjones

Amos, you need to get to the absolute bottom of this, before making any decisions about your marriage. She MAY be telling the truth now, but she's been living a lie for two years, so now you know that she isn't trustworthy. Don't let her sweep this under the carpet, without paying the price, or there will be a next time.


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## MsLonely

Things seem very easy for her when she just loaded her tons of trash on you & got to shake off all her responsibilties of her misbehaviors...Oh yeah? 

That's all?

Then I should go get laid & have fun first. When I feel guilty, I will come clean to my husband, but maybe I will never come clean... Well, you know, it depends on if I'm happy with my husband or not....

My husband is a good man & he would forgive me anyway.

Something is wrong & missing here....


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## Initfortheduration

Have her read Joseph's letter. You can find it on marriage builders It is the perfect response to a spouse who wants to rug sweep after dropping the bomb. 

*You need to tell her that she has lived with it for 2 years. Tell her, that I am sure you thought about what you did all the time. And now you want to just dump it on me with no more investment on your part. Sorry, not going to happen. If you can't make a better effort of contrition then that, you are basically saying that this marriage or me is not worth the hard work necessary for its/my healing. I would tell her that maybe you don't feel like going over it or doing the hard work needed. If that's the case, I need you to get your a$$ out of my sight. Buy her a one way plane ticket to BFE and tell her to call you if she needs money to buy a ticket back when she is ready to work at her marriage. MY FRIEND, IF RECONCILING THIS MARRIAGE COSTS HER NOTHING, IT IS WORTH NOTHING TO HER AND SHE WILL CHEAT AGAIN SOMEDAY WHEN SHE IS BORED OR WHEN THE KIDS ARE GROWN. DO NOT BE PASSIVE ABOUT THIS.*


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## Workingitout

I disagree w/ most replies here. It seems fathomable that she did infact marry young, miss out on the experiences (especially if she has friends that boasted of their experiences) and want to have those experiences. Shows like "The Bacheror" glamorize that concept.

I would accept that concept but be vigilant for other cheating & at the same time, work on your marriage to do your part to improve it.


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## Amos

Thanks for the replies.

We spoke again last night, and she is insistent that she has told me everything----"isn't that bad enough?" was one of her comments. She asked me "what else do you want me to do, how can I prove that there is/was nothing else?"

I don't want this swept under the carpet, and I think there need to be some reprecussions and cost for her behavior, even if I want to stay in the marraige. I am just not sure what they should be or what the next steps should be. Talking about it seems to make me fell better and her feel worse. I sense real contrition and I wonder if I would have been better off not knowing.


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## MrQuatto

Amos, you will need to explain to your wife that she has now had 2 years to wrestle with this situation in her head. She has thought out all the directions this may go, has thought through all the good and bad as well as "thinking" she has worked it all out.

But for her to drop a bomb like that on you and expect you to get over it in a few weeks is ludicrous. She needs to know that you have to have the time to work all this out for yourself at YOUR pace, and she HAS to be forthcoming with true information if there is any chance of you 2 moving on from this together. 

Waywards always want to disclose and have it done from that point when they decide to finally come clean. It is uncomfortable for it to linger on, however they are being selfish in wanting their comfort to be ok, regardless of how you are feeling.

You will also need to look at what ultimately caused her to take this path and what will you BOTH do to avoid it in the future.

Q~


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## AFEH

Amos, I was with my wife since she was just 16 years old and she’s nearly 60 now. I could understand if she wanted to “try” another man. I really could. I caught her once. It was really tough on me but I could understand it.

It sounds to me like your wife was compelled to “see what it’s like with another man”, or in your wife’s case a few men. And she didn’t like what she saw. Personally I think she should have kept it to herself.

But what’s the way ahead? Why not some sort of forfeit? What would you like and enjoy your wife to do for you? Four candle lit dinners on a Saturday night for a month? What can you think of that you’d enjoy and your wife would enjoy doing for you?

Then consider it done and get on enjoying one another again. You will have some grieving to do because some of your past is not what you thought it was and you’ll need to grieve what you’ve lost. And you will be on your guard in the future. I think how it turns out only time will tell. In two years time I’m guessing it’ll be a fading memory for you.


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## Amos

This is a really great forum. I appreciate all of the different perspectives and inputs. Glad I found it.


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## Oft

You can definately get a lot of good advice here. I know I was given a lot. This is also a good place to vent annomously. It helps getting it off your chest sometimes.


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## MayfairJaz

Workingitout said:


> I disagree w/ most replies here. It seems fathomable that she did infact marry young, miss out on the experiences (especially if she has friends that boasted of their experiences) and want to have those experiences. Shows like "The Bacheror" glamorize that concept.
> 
> I would accept that concept but be vigilant for other cheating & at the same time, work on your marriage to do your part to improve it.


I completely agree with this comment from working it out. I think that the hardest part is over and now is time for rebuilding I have a couple of things that will certainly help you out. look at the "improve your chances" page these guides are free and very valuable. Working Through Infidelity


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## F-102

At least she was honest with you. There may be more to this than meets the eye, but the way I see it, the damage has been done, you're working to fix it, and I would say forgive (not so easy to forget, though!), and move forward together.


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## MsLonely

Do you think your wife would cheat again?
Were there just 3 men or 13 men in total? 
Yes, that trip had 3, how about other trips or when you're not around? 2 years is not short, why after 2 years to come clean? Can it be a PA for 2 years instead?
What's she been doing in these 2 years?
Women who dare to play and have fun behind the husband, for them, fun is easy to get whenever they want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely

Just my guess. 
She's dump by the OM who has a PA with her and she started to feel guilty because the OM might treat her like a trash but you treat her like a treasure.
So she decided to tell you what make her feel less guilty. So she told you some peanuts happened 2 years ago to cover what has recently happened, which are the coconuts. 
Just my guessing.


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## Amos

Again. Thanks for all of the advice. I think she really took it to heart when I was able to explain to her that she has had time to work out what happened in her head for 2 years, while I have had less than 1 month---and I will need time and we will move together on my timetable. Will keep everyone updated as I try to move forward. Amos


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## Initfortheduration

Glad to hear that you are staying strong. Good luck.


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## Amos

Well, I was hoping not to revisit this thread again, but it happened again. Despite all of the hard work we put in for 10 months on moving past the affair and back into a mutual trusting marriage, my wife cheated again.

My wife was travelling to Europe for 2 weeks with my 8 year old son visiting her parents---i was meeting her on the 10th day. This was a big step for me. I had finally gotten to the point of trusting her again to travel, and was confident that our marriage was strong enough that this trip would be a positive step in our "new" marriage.

Then she went out the night before I joined them and had a ONS with a complete stranger. When I arrived everything seemed normal. We flew to Rome for the weekend, had a wonderful weekend together----went back to pick up my son, flew back to the US---it was three days after we got home and she broke down and came clean about the new ONS.


So what to do now?

Wife has had 4 ONS's now. All of which have happened in Europe when she is visiting family. We have been married 10 years and there have not been any issues in our marraige here in the US.

We have a 8YO son that is the most important thing in my life, and I am the 90% earner in the family. I still love my wife, but cannot accept this behavior. If I get a divorce, I get buried financially and lose at least 50% custody of my son, who is a real "Daddy's boy." I coach all of his sports teams, drive him to school everyday and spend most of my free weekend time with him (wife works weekend days).

If I could tell my wife to go back to Europe and leave me my home and my son, I would, believe me. But it seems that I am the only one who loses if I divorce. I lose my home, my financial stability and my full custody of my son. None of which are acceptable to me.

She wants to make things work, but I don't even know where to start this time. This time, I don't even want to talk about it. It makes me sick and angry at the same time---and sad for her....she is pathetic and probably a borderline narcissist.

What do I do? MC? Kick her out (is that even legal?) Divorce and lose everything I have worked for the last 15 years? Take my son and move away somewhere? Seriously, I am lost.


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## Amos

Yes we both tested for STDs again. I can't believe I have had to go through this all again. WTF!!!!!???

I guess my mistake was not having enough consequences the first time around.


But what are "strong" consequences. I did nothing wrong and she wins in a divorce. How is that a consequence?

She wants to rug sweep again and I am fatigued typing this post after everything we went through last winter.


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## SadSamIAm

Divorce her. Take the hit financially. You will be teaching your son about proper boundaries.

You will see your son all the time. You can still coach him. I have a friend who is divorced and is very involved in his kids sports. You will see your son one week and the next, you will see him at every practice and every game. 

You can't put up with her behavior. If you don't divorce, you might as well start selling her ass, rather than her giving it away.


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## Arnold

Workingitout said:


> I disagree w/ most replies here. It seems fathomable that she did infact marry young, miss out on the experiences (especially if she has friends that boasted of their experiences) and want to have those experiences. Shows like "The Bacheror" glamorize that concept.
> 
> I would accept that concept but be vigilant for other cheating & at the same time, work on your marriage to do your part to improve it.


This is unrealistic. Unless the guy is Ghandi and has no ego, this will eat at him. His wife got over on him. She got some strange bone and he has had to content himself with only what she has to offer. That is inequitable.


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## aug

Simple, simple stuff. But the emotions get in the way.

I'll be blunt.

Your wife is a serial cheater. She never really had any consequences for her cheating, her multiple ONS and whatever other affairs she may have.

You're enabling her to do so. Seriously ask yourself this: what consequences did she have to bear? Was she ever remorseful? Doubt that, a remorseful person does not repeat -- several times at that.

Get her to sign over her half of the assets (house? retirement plan? etc). Get it done by a competent lawyer so that it can stand up to court challenge.

Get her to sign a post-nup. Have it drawn up legally to make sure there are no loopholes. She loses everything.

If you want her to stop and stay in the marriage, get tough and steadfast.

If you dont, continue on as you are now.


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## Amos

SadSamIAm said:


> Divorce her. Take the hit financially. You will be teaching your son about proper boundaries.
> 
> You will see your son all the time. You can still coach him. I have a friend who is divorced and is very involved in his kids sports. You will see your son one week and the next, you will see him at every practice and every game.
> 
> You can't put up with her behavior. If you don't divorce, you might as well start selling her ass, rather than her giving it away.


I know you are right. It just sucks. I am literally sick to my stomach. Not hurt this time, just numb.


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## Amos

aug said:


> Simple, simple stuff. But the emotions get in the way.
> 
> I'll be blunt.
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater. She never really had any consequences for her cheating, her multiple ONS and whatever other affairs she may have.
> 
> You're enabling her to do so. Seriously ask yourself this: what consequences did she have to bear? Was she ever remorseful? Doubt that, a remorseful person does not repeat -- several times at that.
> 
> Get her to sign over her half of the assets (house? retirement plan? etc). Get it done by a competent lawyer so that it can stand up to court challenge.
> 
> Get her to sign a post-nup. Have it drawn up legally to make sure there are no loopholes. She loses everything.
> 
> If you want her to stop and stay in the marriage, get tough and steadfast.
> 
> If you dont, continue on as you are now.


I agree with you, she is a serial cheater. This will happen again. To me or to whatever other guy she winds up with. 

I was thinking about what you wrote about post-nup. Are they enforceable??? I think she is weak enough right now that she would sign one, and I am not stupid enough to think that she won't do this again. If I had one in place after last time, I wouldn't be on this forum. I am not a doormat. I am just trying to be practical and protect my interests the best I can. Emotionally I am strong this time. This is all about me now and keeping what is mine.


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## Arnold

Your son is not too far from the point where a judge will listen to his desires on who he wants to live with.
Set her up. start documenting all the time you spend with your son. Encourage your wife to absent herself as much as possible(she will probably be okay with this, as it will allow her to chase bone). Document and be patient.
When your attorney feels you have an adequate record to establish that you are the primary caregiver, pounce.


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## crossbar

You know the old saying, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Problem with the last time, is she NEVER had to suffer any repercussions to her actions. The way you described her attitude was. OPPS! I cheated on you....twice in one trip......... SORRY! What's for dinner?

I agree, you might have to take a hit on this one. Do you think she would put up with this behavior if it was you that was having the ONS.

I would take another trip to europe with her and when she's in the shower. Take her passport and anything that indicates she lives in the states, drivers liscene, CC...anything and leave her ass there.


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## CH

Looks like she'll never get to go back home alone anymore.

Woah, just rent back and re-read the entire thread and she's done it again!!!

So much for showing remorse, I guess when she was spread eagle for the ONS there was zero remorse on her part. She only feels remorse after the fact, ouch.

So, do you take her back and in a couple of years when you think you trust her enough again and it'll be strike 3 she's out? Time to move on like everyone says.

I wonder how many other guys there are that she hasn't told you about.


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## Hope1964

Oh man, that seriously sucks. If I found out something like that right now it would destroy our marriage. 

I do not understand why she keeps telling you this stuff. Well, I don't understand why she keeps screwing around either, but there;s no way you would have ever found out if she hadn't told you, is there? So why did she tell you? And if she really has that guilty of a conscience, why do it a second time?? I sure do not understand. Maybe she's a love addict - there's groups for that like Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous.


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## Amos

cheatinghubby said:


> Looks like she'll never get to go back home alone anymore.
> 
> Woah, just rent back and re-read the entire thread and she's done it again!!!
> 
> So much for showing remorse, I guess when she was spread eagle for the ONS there was zero remorse on her part. She only feels remorse after the fact, ouch.
> 
> So, do you take her back and in a couple of years when you think you trust her enough again and it'll be strike 3 she's out? Time to move on like everyone says.
> 
> I wonder how many other guys there are that she hasn't told you about.


Listen. I agree with you. I fell hook line and sinker for the remorseful thing. I am only thinking about myself and my son now. She can go F herself and whoever else she wants. Knowing that she is a serial cheater who has guilt trips after straying, is it possible for me to get a post nup in place (I swear she would sign it right now) that gets me everything I want when she strays again. I would send her to Europe the day after she signs the post nup. I just don't want to get wiped out financially and lose primary custody of my son. This is not about "woe is me." This is about me.


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## tacoma

aug said:


> Simple, simple stuff. But the emotions get in the way.
> 
> I'll be blunt.
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater. She never really had any consequences for her cheating, her multiple ONS and whatever other affairs she may have.
> 
> You're enabling her to do so. Seriously ask yourself this: what consequences did she have to bear? Was she ever remorseful? Doubt that, a remorseful person does not repeat -- several times at that.
> 
> Get her to sign over her half of the assets (house? retirement plan? etc). Get it done by a competent lawyer so that it can stand up to court challenge.
> 
> Get her to sign a post-nup. Have it drawn up legally to make sure there are no loopholes. She loses everything.
> 
> If you want her to stop and stay in the marriage, get tough and steadfast.
> 
> If you dont, continue on as you are now.


I like this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amos

tacoma said:


> I like this
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do to. But is a post-nup with an infidelity trigger w respect to custody and asset sharing enforceable? If so, I will have my lawyer draft one tomorrow.


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## tacoma

Amos said:


> I do to. But is a post-nup with an infidelity trigger w respect to custody and asset sharing enforceable? If so, I will have my lawyer draft one tomorrow.


I don't know but if I were in your shoes I'd call that lawyer tomorrow and find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amos

Hope1964 said:


> I do not understand why she keeps telling you this stuff. Well, I don't understand why she keeps screwing around either, but there;s no way you would have ever found out if she hadn't told you, is there? So why did she tell you? And if she really has that guilty of a conscience, why do it a second time?? I sure do not understand. Maybe she's a love addict - there's groups for that like Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous.


I don't either. There is no way I would have found out if she didn't tell me. 

And I have keylogger, facebook and email passwords and a sim-card reader. She doesn't cheat on me in the US and has no contact with any guy she ever met in Europe. I even have access to her secret email account that she uses to order **** on the internet she doesn't want me to know about.

Why she tells me, I have no f***ng Idea.


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## morituri

Maybe she's a sex addict. Who knows. She's in need of some serious therapy.

The best thing you can do right now is to do nothing drastic, act nice so you won't give away your plans, and gather information so you can plan your exit from the marriage.

You might want to click on *'Dads divorce' *and go to their forums. There are some pretty savy guys there that can tell you what worked for them or didn't.

P.S. You may want to consider telling her that you want an 'open marriage' so that you can also have some fun on the side just like she did. Of course you won't do it, but I'm almost certain that she would jump at the chance to do it. Hopefully she'll screw enough guys to get an STI and shorten her life span.

Good luck.


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## Amos

morituri said:


> Maybe she's a sex addict. Who knows. She's in need of some serious therapy.
> 
> The best thing you can do right now is to do nothing drastic, act nice so you won't give away your plans, and gather information so you can plan your exit from the marriage.
> 
> You might want to click on *'Dads divorce' *and go to their forums. There are some pretty savy guys there that can tell you what worked for them or didn't.
> 
> P.S. You may want to consider telling her that you want an 'open marriage' so that you can also have some fun on the side just like she did. Of course you won't do it, but I'm almost certain that she would jump at the chance to do it. Hopefully she'll screw enough guys to get an STI and shorten her life span.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks.


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## Arnold

Not sure a post nup re custody would work, as the standard is supposed to be the best interest of the child. Supposedly, this is some subjective standard to be determined by a third party/Judge. and it seems unlikely that parents can contract away the rights of their child.
Just like child support. It is the kids entitlement and I think i have heard of cases where , despite the custodial parent waiving it, the kid can go after it.
So, any of you kids out there with deadbeat moms, go for it.(I have even heard of some dads being deadbeats, too)


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## bryanp

This is such an astounding story. The fact that your wife knew you were coming the next day to meet her in Europe and deliberately went out to a bar the evening before to screw a stranger says it all. This is one very very screwed up and toxic woman who will destroy you if you stay married to her. She clearly has no respect for you or your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will?She is using you. I would see the lawyer about a divorce. I do not see why you would ever wish to be intimate with her again. What possible justification did she give you for her actions? Good luck.


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## sadcalifornian

Get her to sign a post nup now while the iron is still hot.

Also, I recommend making her take polygraph to get the full confession. Although she did confess, there may be more to it than that. It also teach her that she can't keep any more secret from this point on.


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## Wolfgar

Somethings obviously wrong with her...she needs help. Although, it's pretty rare to openly be honest and admit to something like that, she has that going for her. Go along with the post nup and have her see a good therapist...she has some issues she needs to sort out


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## Shaggy

You know what, stay out all night at a hotel and tell her you decided to have a ONS of your own.

play it out, and see her reaction. In fact let her stew for an entire day thinking you did it.


then divorce her. She's moved into pond scum status due to her actions.


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## jnj express

To make a POST--NUP work, you have to have a DURESS clause in the post--nup, that says, she signed this of her own free will, and was not coerced, or forced to sign it.

You must give her something so you set up an 80% to 20% split of assets. She gives up any right to Alimony. As to the kid---there will be joint custody, the main contention you want is parental control of the kid.

Your wife KNEW there was a major problem, due to her prior cheating, and still had the gall to cheat again, knowing this time she could very well cause the end of the mge. She still cheats, and tells you, she has serious mental problems, or FOO problems.

You need to decide what you want out of all of this, and go from there----Why does she only cheat in Europe???? Why not over here, also

This whole situation does not add up----You may only have the tip of an iceberg----that spells sex addiction!!!!!!


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## Amos

I agreee that the situation doesn't seem to add up, but I have to tell you, I have done everything except hire a PI and there isn't a scintella of evidence of cheating here in the US.

I did tell her she had to enter individual counselling in order to stay in the house, and she has agreed and been attending twice a week. Not sure if MC is necessary here.


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## Initfortheduration

Initfortheduration said:


> MY FRIEND, IF RECONCILING THIS MARRIAGE COSTS HER NOTHING, IT IS WORTH NOTHING TO HER AND SHE WILL CHEAT AGAIN SOMEDAY WHEN SHE IS BORED OR WHEN THE KIDS ARE GROWN. DO NOT BE PASSIVE ABOUT THIS.[/B]


I am literally speechless (postless). I have started writing a response but each time I have to erase it and start over. What a shiftless skank. First off, have you changed all your bank accounts, and cut off her? Next. Then make her get a job. ANY JOB. FORCE her to get one (financial independence). You want her making money. Slowly pull away from her. Absolutely, no sex with her........ EVER AGAIN. When she confronts you about it, Look her straight in the eyes and tell her "Its simple, I feel no love for you at all and I will never touch you again" Live separate lives. Move in to a separate room. She has to be like a pariah to you. No affection......NONE. Be calm and cordial in front of your son. If he asks why mommy and daddy don't sleep together. Just tell him that daddy snores and mommy can't get her sleep. This will be a process for you. But it is workable. Don't be angry with her. There is no point. Stick like glue to your son, and put his passport in a safe. Consult a lawyer. You want her to be the one who quits. She has to see the futility of staying married to you. Regarding being financially ruined, my friend, you won't be. You will downsize if necessary. Your son is old enough or will be when it comes to custody. The judge will ask him who he wants to live with. 

Your wife couldn't wait one night for you to get there to have sex. She new you were coming the next day. I can virtually guarantee she raced to that bar, this was her opportunity to get some strange, and nothing, not you, your marriage, your son was going to stop her. She is cast in stone. Free yourself. Stay strong.


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## F-102

Get a good lawyer, get all your ducks in a row, then get her a one-way ticket back to Europe. It's quite obvious her heart is really there.


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## Shaggy

Amos,

I've thought through it some more and the only thing I can think of is have her live under total lock down for the rest of your life. 

she simply cannot be trusted. not even the smallest amount. This last cheating wasn't a drunken ONS, it was her deliberately running out to a bar to cheat. It is the female equivalent of hiring a call girl to come over when you know the wife won't be home.

She did this even after all the hurt and pain she already put you through.

She did this knowing that the only sane response on your part should be to divorce her.


And she still deliberately choose to do it.

She would have had to bring the OM around to meet you, and then show you a video of it, to make this any more of deliberate slap in the face to you.

This tells you will never be able to trust her again. Never, even with tons of therapy and all the smiles and proclamations of faithfulness from her. You will never ever trust her again.

If you're afraid of loosing everything in the divorce, then don't divorce her, but cut her off from every dime the family has. No CC, no bank accounts, nothing.

She gets cash to buy groceries and she shows you the receipts and gives you back the change.

Tell her you will no longer think of her as your wife, but as a house keeper, mother of your son, and a woman who lives at this address. 

Get the post nup signed, and If she ever cheats again you will divorce her.

talk to a lawyer about how to set such a thing up, if it's possible.

Tell her you will decide when you will move on personally and begin to date again, and that she has until you decide to get married to someone new, at which time you'll be divorcing her, to change your mind about her, and to show you that there is an actual person in her that isn't the awful hateful selfish person you've come to know.


-------

Or just divorce the cheating skank and send her back to europe and her happy ONSs


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## Shaggy

Amos said:


> I agreee that the situation doesn't seem to add up, but I have to tell you, I have done everything except hire a PI and there isn't a scintella of evidence of cheating here in the US.
> 
> I did tell her she had to enter individual counselling in order to stay in the house, and she has agreed and been attending twice a week. Not sure if MC is necessary here.


Polygraph?

STD tests also?


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## Shaggy

One more thing - if you decide to let her stay - she must know that she will never get to go to europe or any other traveling alone again forever right?


----------



## ArmyofJuan

There's a joke:

Why are divorces so expensive?

Because they're worth it.


It sucks to pay money to a serial cheater but it sucks even more to stay married to one.


----------



## Amos

Shaggy said:


> One more thing - if you decide to let her stay - she must know that she will never get to go to europe or any other traveling alone again forever right?


Absolutely. That has been made clear. 

Yes STD tests, no polygraphs---but I am certain that nothing else is going on here. I have keylogger, know her secret email account (i found it and she uses it for internet shopping), also have installed a SIM card reader on her phone. Unless she is stooping the mailman and the UPS guy (which given her history, I guess I can't rule out) I think she just let's loose on these trips. Alchohol has generally been a factor in all of these ONS. I hesitate to call these ONS because she hasn't spent the night with any of these guys. This is stuff that happens at or around the bar she is at---like "let's take a walk."


I know I look like a doormat, but the crazy thing here is that our marriage would look very normal to an outsider, we get along very well, spend a lot of time together and are generally compatable. That is why I am so puzzled.

I don't know who this person is that acts like a ***** in Europe. I feel like they should make an episode of "who the F did I marry" about my marriage.


----------



## Amos

Shaggy said:


> Amos,
> 
> I've thought through it some more and the only thing I can think of is have her live under total lock down for the rest of your life.
> 
> she simply cannot be trusted. not even the smallest amount. This last cheating wasn't a drunken ONS, it was her deliberately running out to a bar to cheat. It is the female equivalent of hiring a call girl to come over when you know the wife won't be home.
> 
> She did this even after all the hurt and pain she already put you through.
> 
> She did this knowing that the only sane response on your part should be to divorce her.
> 
> 
> And she still deliberately choose to do it.
> 
> She would have had to bring the OM around to meet you, and then show you a video of it, to make this any more of deliberate slap in the face to you.
> 
> This tells you will never be able to trust her again. Never, even with tons of therapy and all the smiles and proclamations of faithfulness from her. You will never ever trust her again.
> 
> If you're afraid of loosing everything in the divorce, then don't divorce her, but cut her off from every dime the family has. No CC, no bank accounts, nothing.
> 
> She gets cash to buy groceries and she shows you the receipts and gives you back the change.
> 
> Tell her you will no longer think of her as your wife, but as a house keeper, mother of your son, and a woman who lives at this address.
> 
> Get the post nup signed, and If she ever cheats again you will divorce her.
> 
> talk to a lawyer about how to set such a thing up, if it's possible.
> 
> Tell her you will decide when you will move on personally and begin to date again, and that she has until you decide to get married to someone new, at which time you'll be divorcing her, to change your mind about her, and to show you that there is an actual person in her that isn't the awful hateful selfish person you've come to know.
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> Or just divorce the cheating skank and send her back to europe and her happy ONSs


Thanks for the well thought out advice. I truly appreciate all of the personal time that folks on here have spent giving their thoughts on this situation.


----------



## Shaggy

Amos said:


> I know I look like a doormat, but the crazy thing here is that our marriage would look very normal to an outsider, we get along very well, spend a lot of time together and are generally compatable. That is why I am so puzzled.
> .


But you're not compatible - she has a totally different mindset about honestly, fidelity, and trust.

How would she react to you doing the same things?

If you went out tonight, hired a hooker and got laid - what would she do?

If you went to vegas and hooked up - what would she do?


----------



## Amos

Shaggy said:


> But you're not compatible - she has a totally different mindset about honestly, fidelity, and trust.
> 
> How would she react to you doing the same things?
> 
> If you went out tonight, hired a hooker and got laid - what would she do?
> 
> If you went to vegas and hooked up - what would she do?


Oh, I agree with you. I am just stating that to an outsider, this would look like a "good" marriage.


----------



## 67flh

wouldn't hurt to lockdown your sons passport, so your wife can't do a disappearing act with your him.


----------



## Shaggy

I still like the idea of you getting dressed up and telling her you're going out to do some "exploring" of your own. 

She won't believe you at first, but get up and go. See how she reacts.

this isn't to be cruel, this is an attempt to provoke some empathy in her, which she doesn't seem to have.


----------



## warlock07

Does it make you wonder about the times she did not tell you?


----------



## Amos

warlock07 said:


> Does it make you wonder about the times she did not tell you?


Absolutely.


----------



## Arnold

Amos said:


> Absolutely. That has been made clear.
> 
> Yes STD tests, no polygraphs---but I am certain that nothing else is going on here. I have keylogger, know her secret email account (i found it and she uses it for internet shopping), also have installed a SIM card reader on her phone. Unless she is stooping the mailman and the UPS guy (which given her history, I guess I can't rule out) I think she just let's loose on these trips. Alchohol has generally been a factor in all of these ONS. I hesitate to call these ONS because she hasn't spent the night with any of these guys. This is stuff that happens at or around the bar she is at---like "let's take a walk."
> 
> 
> I know I look like a doormat, but the crazy thing here is that our marriage would look very normal to an outsider, we get along very well, spend a lot of time together and are generally compatable. That is why I am so puzzled.
> 
> I don't know who this person is that acts like a ***** in Europe. I feel like they should make an episode of "who the F did I marry" about my marriage.




Amos, this is who/what she is. Believe it. It has happened too many times. It is her fundamental nature.


----------



## sadcalifornian

It seems that she used to be very promiscuous while growing up in Europe. After moving to the states and marrying you, she adopted this new conservative lifestyle. Everytime she goes back to Europe however, she seems to revert to her old self. 

No more trip alone to Europe is a definite must. And, she must seek help thru MC or IC to dig deep to fix herself this time once and for all. Otherwise, even if she doesn't go to Europe anymore, there is a good chance she will start doing this in the states as well eventually. Then, the floodgates will open.


----------



## Shaggy

Amos,

Seriously - what would her reaction be to you with another woman? Is your wife secretly wanting and open marriage? I'm not trying to attack here, I'm trying to gain an insight into her mind.

The fact she cheats so easily, shows she doesn't seem to think that it's wrong of her. Oh, she may say it's wrong, but you know actions etc.

She heads to the bar, knowing what's going to happen. She gets drunk, and she pops outside for a quickie. 

Has she explained her motivation for doing it?


----------



## Wanabeelee

Workingitout said:


> I disagree w/ most replies here. It seems fathomable that she did infact marry young, miss out on the experiences (especially if she has friends that boasted of their experiences) and want to have those experiences.


I've only been with my wife, she had only been with me till her PA. So your telling me I should be ok that she was missing out on the experiences of being with other guys and that makes it ok. 18 years and I've never even wanted to kiss another woman. It has something to do with the fact that I loved and respected my wife.

Sorry you hit a trigger.


----------



## calif_hope

Amos,

Man, sorry about all this sh#t she us putting you through. 

A couple of things.....take possession of the passports and register your son with the TSA as a minor child with a potential flight risk parent...if she gets your child to Europe, no matter which country, it will cost major $$$ and possible years to get them back.

In regards to a post-nup, my firm has busted a couple of them, my advice to you is that she has her own attorney explaining and advising her...not an attorney from your lawyer's firm, this attorney will offer her advice and if she decides to sign it the lawyer will ask her to sign a document that your wife acted against their advice.

I seen several PN agreement thrashed because the offending spouse claimed didn't understand agreement or was under duress.

In regards to custody, hard to put into PN, because best interest of minor children supersedes agreements made by patents.......but worth a try....I know you can put a minor will not travel outside US.....

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Wanabeelee said:


> I've only been with my wife, she had only been with me till her PA. So your telling me I should be ok that she was missing out on the experiences of being with other guys and that makes it ok. 18 years and I've never even wanted to kiss another woman. It has something to do with the fact that I loved and respected my wife.
> 
> Sorry you hit a trigger.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

What's the point of a post-nup if you only find out about her cheating when she tells you?


----------



## MrK

Amos said:


> This is stuff that happens at or around the bar she is at---like "let's take a walk."


I'm a little older than most of you. I've been around. I read a lot. But am I the only one that's , like...

:wtf:

What kind of a woman IS THIS???

(and how do I find them?)


----------



## sadcalifornian

MrK said:


> What kind of a woman IS THIS???
> 
> (and how do I find them?)


:rofl:


----------



## ZeekZealand

Amos said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> We spoke again last night, and she is insistent that she has told me everything----"isn't that bad enough?" was one of her comments. She asked me "what else do you want me to do, how can I prove that there is/was nothing else?"
> 
> I don't want this swept under the carpet, and I think there need to be some reprecussions and cost for her behavior, even if I want to stay in the marraige. I am just not sure what they should be or what the next steps should be. Talking about it seems to make me fell better and her feel worse. I sense real contrition and I wonder if I would have been better off not knowing.


Fake an affair, it works wonders.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Amos said:


> Have I done enough? Do I dismiss this as a summer of bad decisions" That is what she calls it. I am essentially happy, although the thoughts of what happened still cause some pain for me. She says she doesn't want to talk about it but it helps me when we do. So I am afraid that if I keep talking about it, we can't move forward.
> 
> Help.


Ya, she drops this on you and expects you to just shut up about it. She wants absolutely NO consequences for her actions.

But something to ponder, and no I wouldn't recommend it or condone it, but you need to bring it up to her to see her reaction.

She says she was experimenting to see what you 2 had. Ok, so she got to experiment. How do you think she'd take it if you told her that since she got to test the waters to see if her marriage was real, then so should you no?

No, that would not be something anyone should do with integrity.

But, since she wants to sweep it under the rug and not talk about it say, "ok, fair enough. You drop this on me and expect me to just get over it and shut up about it? Fine. You are on house arrest until further notice"


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Amos said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> We spoke again last night, and she is insistent that she has told me everything----"isn't that bad enough?" was one of her comments. She asked me "what else do you want me to do, how can I prove that there is/was nothing else?"



It doesn't matter if there was more. What matters is she is a cheater.




> I don't want this swept under the carpet, and I think there need to be some reprecussions and cost for her behavior, even if I want to stay in the marraige. I am just not sure what they should be or what the next steps should be. Talking about it seems to make me fell better and her feel worse. I sense real contrition and I wonder if I would have been better off not knowing.


Sorry, but I wouldn't stay married to such an entitlement tart. I wouldn't stay with someone that cheated, but if I did, it wouldn't be to someone that wants NO consequences for her actions.


----------



## warlock07

Why are you reviving every dead thread?


----------



## Dexter Morgan

MayfairJaz said:


> I completely agree with this comment from working it out. I think that the hardest part is over and now is time for rebuilding I have a couple of things that will certainly help you out. look at the "improve your chances" page these guides are free and very valuable. Working Through Infidelity


So thats it? She drops this bomb on him, basically tells him to shut up and never mention it again, and he is suppose to just move on and treat her with respect after the disrespect she has shown him, not only in the cheating, but expecting him to just get over it?


----------



## morituri

warlock07 said:


> Why are you reviving every dead thread?


Because he's Dexter Morgan and he forgot where he buried the bodies.


----------



## Entropy3000

Amos said:


> Well, I was hoping not to revisit this thread again, but it happened again. Despite all of the hard work we put in for 10 months on moving past the affair and back into a mutual trusting marriage, my wife cheated again.
> 
> My wife was travelling to Europe for 2 weeks with my 8 year old son visiting her parents---i was meeting her on the 10th day. This was a big step for me.  I had finally gotten to the point of trusting her again to travel, and was confident that our marriage was strong enough that this trip would be a positive step in our "new" marriage.
> 
> Then she went out the night before I joined them and had a ONS with a complete stranger. When I arrived everything seemed normal. We flew to Rome for the weekend, had a wonderful weekend together----went back to pick up my son, flew back to the US---it was three days after we got home and she broke down and came clean about the new ONS.
> 
> 
> So what to do now?
> 
> Wife has had 4 ONS's now. All of which have happened in Europe when she is visiting family. We have been married 10 years and there have not been any issues in our marraige here in the US.
> 
> We have a 8YO son that is the most important thing in my life, and I am the 90% earner in the family. I still love my wife, but cannot accept this behavior. If I get a divorce, I get buried financially and lose at least 50% custody of my son, who is a real "Daddy's boy." I coach all of his sports teams, drive him to school everyday and spend most of my free weekend time with him (wife works weekend days).
> 
> If I could tell my wife to go back to Europe and leave me my home and my son, I would, believe me. But it seems that I am the only one who loses if I divorce. I lose my home, my financial stability and my full custody of my son. None of which are acceptable to me.
> 
> She wants to make things work, but I don't even know where to start this time. This time, I don't even want to talk about it. It makes me sick and angry at the same time---and sad for her....she is pathetic and probably a borderline narcissist.
> 
> What do I do? MC? Kick her out (is that even legal?) Divorce and lose everything I have worked for the last 15 years? Take my son and move away somewhere? Seriously, I am lost.


I have not read the rest of the postings but after this latest post it sure looks like she was not remoreful enough to stay faithful to you. I do find this a little odd for sure. BUT, this is working for her. She can take these mini vacations from your marriage, confess to you and keep going. It is also hard to bekieve this is the full extent of things. They call this cake eating. Also the fact is that she had no boundaries. She has no qualms about repeatedly cuckolding you. Who knows she may actually get off on the idea of confessing these indescetions to you.

Stop having sex with her. Get tested for STDs. Decide where your boundaries are as again she has none. This is going to continue. So you now know about at least four guys. Anonymous guys. That is creepy. 

Let her go.


----------



## Entropy3000

warlock07 said:


> Does it make you wonder about the times she did not tell you?


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

Wanabeelee said:


> I've only been with my wife, she had only been with me till her PA. So your telling me I should be ok that she was missing out on the experiences of being with other guys and that makes it ok. 18 years and I've never even wanted to kiss another woman. It has something to do with the fact that I loved and respected my wife.
> 
> Sorry you hit a trigger.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

There is no excuse for a partner to cheat. This one is as dumb and maybe dumber than most reasons.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

morituri said:


> Because he's Dexter Morgan and he forgot where he buried the bodies.


I don't bury them, I drop them in the ocean, remember?


----------



## Amos

Update:

Went to lawyer and have had him draw up papers. Have not decided whether to file or not but am ready to go. Have also seperated finances completely, closed the two joint credit card accounts that we shared, hid my son's passport and put him on a list where she cannot get a new passport without my approval.

Christmas was pleasant. I am at peace and generally have implemented 180. Spending a lot of time with my son and have remained distant but cordial with my wife. No texts or calls during the day, despite repeated texts and calls from her. On the other hand, she has been very loving and outgoing(emotionally and sexually), planning date nights, talking about family vacations, etc. 

I haven't told her family about her behavior yet, and am kind of in a holding pattern about what next steps are. On one hand, I have the upper hand and am at peace with maintaining current status quo with the ability to bring down the hammer at a time and in a manner of my choosing. I understand that if I stay married, it is not to the person I thought I married. I love her, but don't especially like her right now and think she would have a very hard time surviving without me.

In a month or two, the discussion will start about her annual summer trip to Europe with my son, which obviously isn't going to happen ever again on my watch. There may be fireworks then, and I will keep everyone updated.


----------



## Eli-Zor

> In a month or two, the discussion will start about her annual summer trip to Europe with my son, which obviously isn't going to happen ever again on my watch. There may be fireworks then, and I will keep everyone updated.


I trust you are not going to agree or pay for this. If she goes you file and lock her out of house and home.


----------



## Amos

Eli-Zor said:


> I trust you are not going to agree or pay for this. If she goes you file and lock her out of house and home.


I will not be paying for it, or allowing my son to be her "prop" on this trip. If she chooses to go alone anyway, that will be the end. The only way she will ever travel to Europe again while we are married will be if I travel with her.


----------



## Complexity

Sorry this happened to you man, has it really become this hard to find a faithful/loving spouse in this world?


----------



## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> Sorry this happened to you man, has it really become this hard to find a faithful/loving spouse in this world?


According to the latest statistics I would say yes it's this hard...if not impossible.


----------



## Initfortheduration

Amos, have you given in and had sex with her? If so you have really screwed the pooch. It is tantamount to approving her ONSs. It means "all forgiven" in a court. Her lawyer will ask her, did your husband know about your ONS? She will say "yes". Then he will ask her, "have you had sex with your husband since your sexual experience with these other men? Oh, yes? And did you have sex with him after the last sexual experience with another man? Oh, yes. Do you see what I am saying. You lose the high ground and you basically tell the world. "Its OK that she has sex with other men". A lawyer will eat you alive. How? By showing everyone that you don't have that big a problem with her f ing other men. Understand?


----------



## Amos

Initfortheduration said:


> Amos, have you given in and had sex with her? If so you have really screwed the pooch. It is tantamount to approving her ONSs. It means "all forgiven" in a court. Her lawyer will ask her, did your husband know about your ONS? She will say "yes". Then he will ask her, "have you had sex with your husband since your sexual experience with these other men? Oh, yes? And did you have sex with him after the last sexual experience with another man? Oh, yes. Do you see what I am saying. You lose the high ground and you basically tell the world. "Its OK that she has sex with other men". A lawyer will eat you alive. How? By showing everyone that you don't have that big a problem with her f ing other men. Understand?



I understand somewhat but I have given in on that.


----------



## snap

Initfortheduration said:


> Amos, have you given in and had sex with her? If so you have really screwed the pooch. It is tantamount to approving her ONSs. It means "all forgiven" in a court. Her lawyer will ask her, did your husband know about your ONS? She will say "yes". Then he will ask her, "have you had sex with your husband since your sexual experience with these other men? Oh, yes? And did you have sex with him after the last sexual experience with another man? Oh, yes. Do you see what I am saying. You lose the high ground and you basically tell the world. "Its OK that she has sex with other men". A lawyer will eat you alive. How? By showing everyone that you don't have that big a problem with her f ing other men. Understand?


Uh, they also could have dined together, he could have bought her flowers since, fixed her brakepads etc. How does that follow?

Many couples continue having sex all the way through divorce, not sure how that would have any weight in the court.


----------



## Amos

I have a trigger issue that I want to look for advice on.

I found a photo on the internet of my wife at the event where her last ONS happened in Europe last summer. It is a music festival and the photo is innocuous. She is sitting on a blanket with a GF chatting.

However, now I can see what she was wearing. It is a grey summer dress that she often wears---I'd say one of her favorites. My mind has been doing acrobatics. And as you can imagine, I never want to see the ****ing dress again. 

My gut feeling is that I should just handle it quietly instead of bringing it up and causing an unnecessary incident. Should I throw it in the trash without telling her? Light it on fire to make myself feel better? Or should I give it to her, let her know how I feel about the dress and tell her to get rid of it.

I know this seems trite to many of the serious issues being discussed today, but Triggers are Triggers, and seeing a photo of your wife wearing the dress she pulled up for some stranger a few hours later is no fun--I will tell you that.


----------



## lordmayhem

Amos said:


> My gut feeling is that I should just handle it quietly instead of bringing it up and causing an unnecessary incident. Should I throw it in the trash without telling her? Light it on fire to make myself feel better? Or should I give it to her, let her know how I feel about the dress and tell her to get rid of it.


This is a big trigger for you and if she was truly remorseful, she would accept it in order to help YOU heal. I had the same triggers when I saw pictures of my fWW wearing something. To me, if this causes an incident, then she is rug sweeping. She should be totally in the left column here.


----------



## Beowulf

Amos said:


> I have a trigger issue that I want to look for advice on.
> 
> I found a photo on the internet of my wife at the event where her last ONS happened in Europe last summer. It is a music festival and the photo is innocuous. She is sitting on a blanket with a GF chatting.
> 
> However, now I can see what she was wearing. It is a grey summer dress that she often wears---I'd say one of her favorites. My mind has been doing acrobatics. And as you can imagine, I never want to see the ****ing dress again.
> 
> My gut feeling is that I should just handle it quietly instead of bringing it up and causing an unnecessary incident. Should I throw it in the trash without telling her? Light it on fire to make myself feel better? Or should I give it to her, let her know how I feel about the dress and tell her to get rid of it.
> 
> I know this seems trite to many of the serious issues being discussed today, but Triggers are Triggers, and seeing a photo of your wife wearing the dress she pulled up for some stranger a few hours later is no fun--I will tell you that.


I see no reason she should not get rid of the dress if it triggers you. I would not just dispose of it. I would bring it to her, explain how you feel and let her handle it. If she objects then she isn't all that interested in helping you recover from her betrayal. If you just get rid of it you aren't allowing her to demonstrate remorse and you are in fact being deceitful.


----------



## Amos

lordmayhem said:


> This is a big trigger for you and if she was truly remorseful, she would accept it in order to help YOU heal. I had the same triggers when I saw pictures of my fWW wearing something. To me, if this causes an incident, then she is rug sweeping. She should be totally in the left column here.




I appreciate that. So I should let her know I saw picture from that night, know what she was wearing and ask her to get rid of it. I shouldn't feel like a crazy person for asking her to throw a dress out. That is why I like this forum. Really, I didn't know where else to go to discuss this.


----------



## Amos

Beowulf said:


> I see no reason she should not get rid of the dress if it triggers you. I would not just dispose of it. I would bring it to her, explain how you feel and let her handle it. If she objects then she isn't all that interested in helping you recover from her betrayal. If you just get rid of it you aren't allowing her to demonstrate remorse and you are in fact being deceitful.


Thanks, appreciated.


----------



## Beowulf

Amos said:


> I appreciate that. So I should let her know I saw picture from that night, know what she was wearing and ask her to get rid of it. I shouldn't feel like a crazy person for asking her to throw a dress out. That is why I like this forum. Really, I didn't know where else to go to discuss this.


You are NOT crazy and your request is NOT petty! What you are asking for is damned normal. Don't feel any other way. The WS must do whatever comforts the BS as part of R. Anything less is not acceptable.


----------



## zanzan

Is she OK with you going out and banging 2 women 3 times just so you can experiment, to make sure you are not missing out on anything?

How about she goes along and watches you do it since she is such loving supportive wife?


----------



## bryanp

I agree with Zanzan. Apparently there were no consequences for her to go to Europe and cheat on you 3 different times with 2 different men just so she could experiment. I am sure she would be happy for you to engage in the same behavior. Since apparently there have been no consequences to her actions, you have sent her a clear message that it was acceptable for your wife to cheat on you with other men and put her health and your health at risk for STD's. I am sure you must feel very proud and special that she is your wife. I hate to say it but it seems like she played you for an absolute fool.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm a firm believer in dumping or burning all clother toys jewelry lingere worn for the affair. It makes a very strong statement purging it from your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Why are you still with the wife?


----------



## Amos

Shaggy said:


> I'm a firm believer in dumping or burning all clother toys jewelry lingere worn for the affair. It makes a very strong statement purging it from your life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Taken care of. Presented to her last night, with the photo and told her to get rid of it and why. Feel much better today.


----------



## happyman64

Good Amos. First the dress. Then you kill her summer trip when she brings it p.

Keep remembering she is lucky to be with you. 

Most men would have dumped her butt by now for the cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Amos

happyman64 said:


> Good Amos. First the dress. Then you kill her summer trip when she brings it p.
> 
> Keep remembering she is lucky to be with you.
> 
> Most men would have dumped her butt by now for the cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It has been brought up and dismissed. No summer trip to Europe this year. She attempted to argue how important it is for our son, but I wasn't having any of it. We will take a family trip to the Keys instead. She will not be travelling to Europe without me anytime soon.....and by that I mean as long as we are married.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you. Keep showing her consequences for her actions.

What a shame that your son loses out on a great experience. Remind her that this is happening because of her cheating behavior not yours.

And it is HER shame to bear not yours as well.

I would rather go to the keys anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Initfortheduration

Gotta be tough, allowing her to rug sweep Europe only to ask to go again. You realize that by her even asking to go, proves that she is unrepentant, and doesn't care about your feelings? I guess you take it as long as you can take it.


----------



## lordmayhem

Amos said:


> It has been brought up and dismissed. No summer trip to Europe this year. She attempted to argue how important it is for our son, but I wasn't having any of it. We will take a family trip to the Keys instead. She will not be travelling to Europe without me anytime soon.....and by that I mean as long as we are married.


She still attempted to argue about a trip to Europe? After all the sh!t she's done? Knowing how big a trigger this is and she hasn't earned an ounce of trust back?










This shows that she has absolutely no compassion for you or your feelings. If she was truly remorseful, she would pull out all the stops to save the marriage. She wouldn't even think about wanting to go to Europe right now. Can't you see this?

I have a strong feeling this will just end up as False R. She's already trying to rugsweep and hoping that you're over it already. In her mind, banging OM seems to be no big deal. She can just turn on the waterworks or crocodile tears and all is forgiven. You're being played.


----------



## bandit.45

This is one of those situations where Amos would be justified in flying solo to Nevada and spending one or two nights in the loving arms of several of that state's finest professionals at a comfy ranch establishment. 
What an unmitigated wh0re this woman is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

So you don't worry about the other ONS she might have had(but hasn't confessed) or the ONS she will have out of spite for not allowing her to take Europe trips or the ONS she will have out of resentment for controlling her actions?


----------



## warlock07

bandit.45 said:


> This is one of those situations where Amos would be justified in flying solo to Nevada and spending one or two nights in the loving arms of several of that state's finest professionals at a comfy ranch establishment.
> What an unmitigated wh0re this woman is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Imagine what will happen when he leaves for 2 nights ...


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## bandit.45

He's probably not a quarter as good looking as she is so if they tried an open marriage she would still come out on top. She's got him beat on every front.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Her disconnect from the reality she has created by having ONS every time she's gone to Europe without you, is amazing, simply amazing. I guess it must be a psychological defense mechanism that keeps her from experiencing a mental breakdown. Has she been evaluated for any personality disorders?


----------



## Amos

Initfortheduration said:


> Gotta be tough, allowing her to rug sweep Europe only to ask to go again. You realize that by her even asking to go, proves that she is unrepentant, and doesn't care about your feelings? I guess you take it as long as you can take it.


Her parents, brother and nieces (therefore, my sons grandparents and cousins) live there, so it is more complicated than that. Anyway, she's not going.


----------



## Amos

morituri said:


> Her disconnect from the reality she has created by having ONS every time she's gone to Europe without you, is amazing, simply amazing. I guess it must be a psychological defense mechanism that keeps her from experiencing a mental breakdown. Has she been evaluated for any personality disorders?


I have come to the conclusion with our MC (who is my IC) that she has a form of personality disorder, which I have discussed with others on the forum off line. It has helped me come to an understanding on how I have to deal with her.


----------



## bandit.45

Amos said:


> Her parents, brother and nieces (therefore, my sons grandparents and cousins) live there, so it is more complicated than that. Anyway, she's not going.


At the very least make it clear she is never going alone there again without you. 

Have you told her parents and family what she did? If not you need to. This is a seriously sick person you married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

bandit.45 said:


> At the very least make it clear she is never going alone there again without you.
> 
> Have you told her parents and family what she did? If not you need to. This is a seriously sick person you married.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely it must be disclosed. Otherwise you will be on the receiving end of some harsh comments and feelings from her family. You will be seen as someone keeping their family member from seeing them. Do not let them or her demonize you for her act of betrayal.


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## bryanp

If it is borderline personality disorder then save yourself and children. There is no cure and they are absolutely toxin to everyone around them.


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## Amos

bandit.45 said:


> At the very least make it clear she is never going alone there again without you.
> 
> Have you told her parents and family what she did? If not you need to. This is a seriously sick person you married.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WIth respect to point number 1, that is clear.

With respect to point number 2, her family is visiting us in June for a month. I plan to tell them in person why their daughter/sister isn't allowed to go home.


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## happyman64

I agree with you Amos. Make it known to her family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## river rat

Amos, I'm sure that your therapist has told you what kind of personality disorder she has. NPD can be helped if the subject is highly motivated; unfortunately, most aren't. BPD is difficult, but may be amenable to cognitive tx. Check out the book "Stop Walking On Eggshells." It deals w/ living w/ family members w/ BPD. I agree w/ the previous posts. You have to formulate the boundaries, since she has none. And then you have to enforce them. That means that she does not travel alone.


----------



## CH

Amos said:


> With respect to point number 2, her family is visiting us in June for a month. I plan to tell them in person why their daughter/sister isn't allowed to go home.


What happens if there is blow out and the family goes all ballistic over this? And if she sides with her family then what is your next move?

Not saying this is gonna happen but have you made plans as to what you will do if it goes down that way?


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## Goldmember357

You need to leave her buddy she is not a good wife or a good woman. I am sorry but i have seen i have a good woman and i have meet good women in my life they do not act like that. Good men also do not act or do the same thing either.

You sound like a good man you deserve better there are millions of good women out there tons more than you can imagine so many who just want a good man.



DIVORCE your wife the fact she kept it a secret for 2 years is ridiculous and the fact she CHEATED is ridiculous. There is no excuses for cheating. Forget and ignore all the people in this thread who are weak minded (no offense) and who think its okay to forgive cheaters and think that its okay if your "husband" or your "wife" wants to have sex with other people because they possibly "missed out"


lol!

You are fooling yourself and living in la la land if you try to justify cheating or defending the cheating that your spouse did you are also living in la la land if you get back together with set person after they hurt you and made a mockery of marriage and exhibited a million character flaws and showed extreme signs of selfishness, these people are narcissistic and are fully corrupted people with sin and have signed over there lives and their souls' more than likely to that of devil. 


But hey! even if you arent religious and dont believe in say an afterlife like heaven or hell. Do you really want to live your 1 life before you go out with a person who is narcissistic and hedonistic view on the world? and will keep such a thing a secret? If that is the case than you are just playing with your heart and hurting yourself for year's to come and preventing yourself from doing the right thing which is ending the marriage that X spouse made a shame and a mockery of and you are preventing yourself from meeting BETTER PEOPLE.


There are much better women for you and this goes to any cheated on women THERE are much better men out there for you.


Cheers


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## Amos

river rat said:


> Amos, I'm sure that your therapist has told you what kind of personality disorder she has. NPD can be helped if the subject is highly motivated; unfortunately, most aren't. BPD is difficult, but may be amenable to cognitive tx. Check out the book "Stop Walking On Eggshells." It deals w/ living w/ family members w/ BPD. I agree w/ the previous posts. You have to formulate the boundaries, since she has none. And then you have to enforce them. That means that she does not travel alone.


Thanks for the advise. Reading Stop Walking on Eggshells Now. It has been helpful. It seems more likely to be NPD than BPD but there are some definite shades of BPD.


----------



## Amos

Goldmember357 said:


> You need to leave her buddy she is not a good wife or a good woman. I am sorry but i have seen i have a good woman and i have meet good women in my life they do not act like that. Good men also do not act or do the same thing either.
> 
> You sound like a good man you deserve better there are millions of good women out there tons more than you can imagine so many who just want a good man.
> 
> 
> 
> DIVORCE your wife the fact she kept it a secret for 2 years is ridiculous and the fact she CHEATED is ridiculous. There is no excuses for cheating. Forget and ignore all the people in this thread who are weak minded (no offense) and who think its okay to forgive cheaters and think that its okay if your "husband" or your "wife" wants to have sex with other people because they possibly "missed out"
> 
> 
> lol!
> 
> You are fooling yourself and living in la la land if you try to justify cheating or defending the cheating that your spouse did you are also living in la la land if you get back together with set person after they hurt you and made a mockery of marriage and exhibited a million character flaws and showed extreme signs of selfishness, these people are narcissistic and are fully corrupted people with sin and have signed over there lives and their souls' more than likely to that of devil.
> 
> 
> But hey! even if you arent religious and dont believe in say an afterlife like heaven or hell. Do you really want to live your 1 life before you go out with a person who is narcissistic and hedonistic view on the world? and will keep such a thing a secret? If that is the case than you are just playing with your heart and hurting yourself for year's to come and preventing yourself from doing the right thing which is ending the marriage that X spouse made a shame and a mockery of and you are preventing yourself from meeting BETTER PEOPLE.
> 
> 
> There are much better women for you and this goes to any cheated on women THERE are much better men out there for you.
> 
> 
> Cheers



You make very good points, all of which I have considered. Thanks for the post.


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## Amos

cheatinghubby said:


> What happens if there is blow out and the family goes all ballistic over this? And if she sides with her family then what is your next move?
> 
> Not saying this is gonna happen but have you made plans as to what you will do if it goes down that way?




Family will side with me. Little doubt about that. Her reaction will be the more interesting one, but I don't really care how she reacts. This is for me.


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## bandit.45

Half of the Europeans I know have NPD.


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## Laureen

I am so sorry to read your post. I have read a couple of replies and disagree with the first few. 

I will share my experience. Keep in mind, my marriage is not like yours. So, I will take a minute preface my affair experience... My husband and I are both alcoholics, both active members of AA today. But before I began to do the work to become well and healthy, I was filled with a hot, venomous hatred for my husband because from the absolute beginning of our relationship (prior marriages and kids for both) he constantly put me down and in rages he would scream in front of his kids that I hated them!! His kids were 3 and 7 and they grew up believing I hate them, hence they were rebellious and angry and our relationships are strained. My husband was exhibiting sings of alcoholism (extreme control issues) back then and at the time I rarely drank. I began to drink to manage stress and I had no idea that I had crossed into alcoholism until I was very sick and hurting those who love me (my kids). So, for many years I fed into the problem. But I did NOT KNOW this. I instead blamed him for each spoiled vacation the kids suffered through. I blamed him for my deep depression, my burning rage, my pain. I blamed him for my drinking. I blamed him for my failed relationships with his family members, etc... He WAS in part, responsible for some of those things HOWEVER, I learned in AA how to look at and accept MY responsibility FROM THE BEGINNING! --- had I had the thinking of a 'normal and mentally healthy, emotionally mature individual' I would not have STAYED in the relationship after the first red flag!! Hence, I would not have begun drinking for stress relief, my kids would not have suffered. (He and his still would have because of his own problems - but me and mine would not have been a part of it) SOOO... I am responsible. ME. 

Now, in my deep sickness of alcoholism, I finally realized I needed help when I failed at a suicide attempt. I ended up in a 5-star resort treatment facility. Not what I would have chosen, as I was looking for help, not Yoga and tennis. Anyways, I am glad I went there because something happened that is very significant. 

I met a man who is wealthy and quite a bit older than I am. He and I got emotionally close and I, knowing damn well who I have to come home to, decided to go for it. This man offered to care for me and my children and offered me a life I have never known. One of comfort and luxury. More important, he is a really kind man and I thought, "I hate my husband and want nothing to do with him... HOW can I end it once and for all??" Well, one day I went to the beach with my rehab friend and we ended up in a hotel. 

I had to tell my husband about this when I was several months sober. He KNEW something had happened because my rehab friend called me several times a day after I went back to my life. He was trying to find property on the beach here to purchase for us, etc... So... I eventually had to tell my husband about it. (Though the 9th step of AA says that - "we make amends to people wherever possible ACCEPT when to do so would injure them or others" --- what that means is that if the spouse has NO idea whatever that an extramarital indiscretion occurred, and testing for STDs proved negative, IS IT NECESSARY TO CAUSE HARM????? NO!!!) But mine knew something and I came clean. 

He was hurt and angry. He pushed me to talk about it over and over again. We discussed it in therapy. My sponsor finally told me, "If you have told him everything and there is nothing more to tell, then you tell him, you are done paying this bill and discuss it no more." Our therapist told him, "You have gotten your answers. Drop it. If you want to save your marriage, it is time for you to look at YOUR part in things and stop looking at her to distract yourself from looking at your part." We made an agreement. I had already told the 'other guy' to stop calling me and I wished him a good life. I had been allowing my husband full access to my cell phone and computer. I agreed to let it continue for a period of no more than 6 months on the condition that he NOT bring up my affair unless he ACTUALLY FOUND RECENT EVIDENCE, which I knew he would not because it was over. 

When I made the decision to try to save the marriage, I ended the affair and it was done. You need to focus on your wife's behavior TODAY. Don't beat a dead horse. It is over. How is she living today? Is she giving you reason to distrust her TODAY?

My husband trusts me 100% and I have been sober for 2.7 years. He actually has been sober for 7 months because he has seen a beautiful thing happen in me as I worked on myself and he wanted it, so he came into AA and has begun the journey.

Today? I still don't have love for him but I don't hate him and I have hope for us, since we each take responsibility for our OWN selves instead of pointing at each other. Our marriage is BETTER today than it has EVER been because today I am not being screamed at whenever he is upset after a bad day at work or when the kids misbehave and are disciplined. Today, he actually tries to participate in our partnership. We never had a partnership. We have mutual respect today. Neat, huh?

I believe MOST affairs have several participants. Spouses DO have their own part to play even if it is simply being emotionally detached, never being home, putting everything ahead of the spouse, etc... NO IT DOES NOT MAKE IT OK, it simply means that there are areas to work on. 

Good luck. You are both in my prayers!


----------



## happyman64

Laureen,

Wow! What a story. Your message is powerful.

I give you credit for coming clean in so many ways and making your life and family better.

I pray that you find the love again for your spouse that you lost.

HM64


----------



## warlock07

Laureen said:


> I am so sorry to read your post. I have read a couple of replies and disagree with the first few.
> 
> I will share my experience. Keep in mind, my marriage is not like yours. So, I will take a minute preface my affair experience... My husband and I are both alcoholics, both active members of AA today. But before I began to do the work to become well and healthy, I was filled with a hot, venomous hatred for my husband because from the absolute beginning of our relationship (prior marriages and kids for both) he constantly put me down and in rages he would scream in front of his kids that I hated them!! His kids were 3 and 7 and they grew up believing I hate them, hence they were rebellious and angry and our relationships are strained. My husband was exhibiting sings of alcoholism (extreme control issues) back then and at the time I rarely drank. I began to drink to manage stress and I had no idea that I had crossed into alcoholism until I was very sick and hurting those who love me (my kids). So, for many years I fed into the problem. But I did NOT KNOW this. I instead blamed him for each spoiled vacation the kids suffered through. I blamed him for my deep depression, my burning rage, my pain. I blamed him for my drinking. I blamed him for my failed relationships with his family members, etc... He WAS in part, responsible for some of those things HOWEVER, I learned in AA how to look at and accept MY responsibility FROM THE BEGINNING! --- had I had the thinking of a 'normal and mentally healthy, emotionally mature individual' I would not have STAYED in the relationship after the first red flag!! Hence, I would not have begun drinking for stress relief, my kids would not have suffered. (He and his still would have because of his own problems - but me and mine would not have been a part of it) SOOO... I am responsible. ME.
> 
> Now, in my deep sickness of alcoholism, I finally realized I needed help when I failed at a suicide attempt. I ended up in a 5-star resort treatment facility. Not what I would have chosen, as I was looking for help, not Yoga and tennis. Anyways, I am glad I went there because something happened that is very significant.
> 
> I met a man who is wealthy and quite a bit older than I am. He and I got emotionally close and I, knowing damn well who I have to come home to, decided to go for it. This man offered to care for me and my children and offered me a life I have never known. One of comfort and luxury. More important, he is a really kind man and I thought, "I hate my husband and want nothing to do with him... HOW can I end it once and for all??" Well, one day I went to the beach with my rehab friend and we ended up in a hotel.
> 
> I had to tell my husband about this when I was several months sober. He KNEW something had happened because my rehab friend called me several times a day after I went back to my life. He was trying to find property on the beach here to purchase for us, etc... So... I eventually had to tell my husband about it. (Though the 9th step of AA says that - "we make amends to people wherever possible ACCEPT when to do so would injure them or others" --- what that means is that if the spouse has NO idea whatever that an extramarital indiscretion occurred, and testing for STDs proved negative, IS IT NECESSARY TO CAUSE HARM????? NO!!!) But mine knew something and I came clean.
> 
> He was hurt and angry. He pushed me to talk about it over and over again. We discussed it in therapy. My sponsor finally told me, "If you have told him everything and there is nothing more to tell, then you tell him, you are done paying this bill and discuss it no more." Our therapist told him, "You have gotten your answers. Drop it. If you want to save your marriage, it is time for you to look at YOUR part in things and stop looking at her to distract yourself from looking at your part." We made an agreement. I had already told the 'other guy' to stop calling me and I wished him a good life. I had been allowing my husband full access to my cell phone and computer. I agreed to let it continue for a period of no more than 6 months on the condition that he NOT bring up my affair unless he ACTUALLY FOUND RECENT EVIDENCE, which I knew he would not because it was over.
> 
> When I made the decision to try to save the marriage, I ended the affair and it was done. You need to focus on your wife's behavior TODAY. Don't beat a dead horse. It is over. How is she living today? Is she giving you reason to distrust her TODAY?
> 
> My husband trusts me 100% and I have been sober for 2.7 years. He actually has been sober for 7 months because he has seen a beautiful thing happen in me as I worked on myself and he wanted it, so he came into AA and has begun the journey.
> 
> Today? I still don't have love for him but I don't hate him and I have hope for us, since we each take responsibility for our OWN selves instead of pointing at each other. Our marriage is BETTER today than it has EVER been because today I am not being screamed at whenever he is upset after a bad day at work or when the kids misbehave and are disciplined. Today, he actually tries to participate in our partnership. We never had a partnership. We have mutual respect today. Neat, huh?
> 
> I believe MOST affairs have several participants. Spouses DO have their own part to play even if it is simply being emotionally detached, never being home, putting everything ahead of the spouse, etc... NO IT DOES NOT MAKE IT OK, it simply means that there are areas to work on.
> 
> Good luck. You are both in my prayers!


Why does this post piss me off?


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## snap

Entitlement.


----------



## warlock07

> Is she giving you reason to distrust her TODAY?


Seriously??


----------



## Humble Pie

Amos said:


> It has been brought up and dismissed. No summer trip to Europe this year. She attempted to argue how important it is for our son, but I wasn't having any of it. We will take a family trip to the Keys instead. She will not be travelling to Europe without me anytime soon.....and by that I mean as long as we are married.


Way to stop her in her tracks from self-destruction again. I am amazed at how she attempted to argue this knowing what has happened the last two summers. Surely she cannot be too remorseful with her actions just by this simple fact.

And obviously you know your wife's track history with ONS and quickies, has she ever strayed away from you while the two of you are on vacation together? "Hey honey, I am going down to the bar for a drink, etc" and leaves you behind with your son. I dont think at this point I would put it past her.

How has the seperation of finances been taken by her, did she make you feel guilty in anyway? How much have you actually attempted to talk with her to get her mental thinking towards her unacceptable behaviors, or did you just allow the MC push it as personaility disorder and left it as that?

In your posts, you show total anger after the last ONS, then slowly show pitty on her by stated "i dont know if she could live without me financially" (not in those words but with that thought). I am beginning to think you are rug sweeping this again. Why not just you and your son take a vacation together, your wife at this point doesnt seem to deserve it.


----------



## river rat

Amos, My MIL has NPD; she's classic. The whole world revolves around her. The sense of entitlement is enormous. My FIL recently died. In one on our last conversations, he asked, "Did you ever wish you'd married someone else?" That question after being tied to this woman for 60 yrs. You gotta ask yourself- Do you want to be that man? The work she'll have to do on herself is daunting. She won't be at all motivated unless she is convinced that she's losing you. Unless you can get her moving in that direction, the rest of your life will be that of a doormat.


----------



## Laureen

warlock07 said:


> Seriously??



I did NOT say that she is NOT giving Amos reason today. I simply was stating that question so he would think about the things she is or is not doing today. 

Yes, when the behavior still indicates something is going on, it is being proven that she is still doing something wrong. 

Sometimes however, it is possible to SEE misbehavior where there is none because of suspicion and lack of trust, caused by past behavior. 

An honest appraisal of today is important in making a decision of what to do. 

Sweeping things under the rug will only allow continuation of the behavior. But IF both parties have a commitment to fix the marriage (and no, it is almost never one persons doing when these things happen) then it certainly CAN be better than ever. 

So, YES seriously...


----------



## Laureen

warlock07 said:


> Why does this post piss me off?


Hmmm... I know that most people who get pissed off about something someone says usually see truth in the words spoken. Maybe the pissed off person is not the best possible partner they can be?

I don't blame my husband for anything I did. I was absolutely WRONG for what I did. I had other options, like leaving way back in the beginning. Or, after enough broken promises or after each occasion when he was physically violent or after every screaming and raging fit he threw...

But the beauty here is that today my husband FINALLY has learned what the role of PARTNER and PARENT is. Today he is a participant in our lives and HE takes responsibility for HIS anger and refusal to be a part of our marriage and the kids' lives. Even though my answer to my problem was the wrong one, it is the one that finally got him to take responsibility for knowingly treating me and the kids like lesser beings. I sometimes regret what I did, but usually when he and I discuss this (and today we do discuss it very openly and kindly) HE says that while he wishes our lives had been different, he believes it had to be this way to get his attention. He never knew what being a partner was because he never had examples growing up. And even though he knew he treated us all cruelly, he believed he had the right to do whatever he wanted and expect us all to just deal with it. He says that since I tried, for many years (both drinking years and during a long stretch of sobriety for both of us, some years ago) to tell him how I feel - and since I spent many of our years being the ONLY one trying to make treasure out of trash, he believes that this is ultimately what HAD to happen to open his eyes and get him to WANT to change. 

Remember that marriage, like a blooming flower, will wither if you stop watering it.


----------



## bandit.45

WOW. Laveen, you are like... Like...Yoda!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snap

Laureen, I'd say it's the combination of glee ("see, my affair got him to his senses!") and lack of remorse that posters here find off-putting.


----------



## Laureen

snap said:


> Laureen, I'd say it's the combination of glee ("see, my affair got him to his senses!") and lack of remorse that posters here find off-putting.


Indeed, lack of remorse is extremely off putting. But, is there really lack of remorse or is anger and pain causing the two spouses to not be able to get to their hearts. Anger and pain can cause people to ACT anything but remorseful... IE: I was remorseful immeidately after doing what I did but I was filled with so much PAIN as a result of many years of abuse (mentally, sexually, physically) from my spouse - that I used that pain to fuel anger so I would feel hate... That fueled my ability to be more cruel and continue to talk to the other man after I got home from the facility I was in. I WAS remorseful but my husband continued to mentally and emotionally abuse me when I got home and he tried in every way to keep me from going to AA and getting better because HE was scared that I WOULD get better and want a satisfying life. The more he put me down and screamed and yelled and forced me to engage in sex (he still drank for the first 2 years of my sobriety) the easier it was to put more bricks in the wall and PURPOSEFULLY hurt him with my affair.

I am NOT saying that that is what is going on but really, message boards are very, very one sided in most cases. Nobody is a fly on the wall and is able to see what really is or is not taking place in that marriage.

So, I offer my suggestion to look at TODAY and to NOT keep living in yesterday. If one has an open mind and open heart, certainly they risk real pain BUT open minds and open hearts see the absolute truth!


----------



## sinnister

Meeting the wealthy man that showed her a life of luxury is priceless...

And you're not supposed to have ANY relationships WHILE IN AA.

You've learned nothing.


----------



## snap

Laureen said:


> I WAS remorseful but my husband continued to mentally and emotionally abuse me when I got home and he tried in every way to keep me from going to AA and getting better because HE was scared that I WOULD get better and want a satisfying life.


To be fair, he could see AA as a place where you picked up your lover and was not very welcome to you going there again for that very reason.

Sorry for turning the tables, but you mentioned there is a reason to every problem in the marriage. I think there was a reason to this problem of his too, although perhaps it's not something you're willing to admit.



> So, I offer my suggestion to look at TODAY and to NOT keep living in yesterday. If one has an open mind and open heart, certainly they risk real pain BUT open minds and open hearts see the absolute truth!


Honestly, open ears and open eyes worked better for me.


----------



## morituri

Laureen, I see what you are driving at but not all betrayed husbands are like yours. Many of us were good husbands who did our best to treat our wives with love, kindness and respect and for all of this they still chose to cheat on us. They then plead with us not to divorce them and expect us to be satisfied with the information they provided us. This information usually is only the tip of the iceberg because they tried to minimize the impact of their betrayal by withholding more information regarding their affair(s) for fear of pushing us over the edge and deciding to leave them. We sense that we are not being given the whole truth and we are often right. They have the complete picture of what the puzzle looks like and yet they only provide us with a few pieces of that puzzle. How can a betrayed husband be expected to move forward with reconciliation if the unfaithful wife doesn't want to help her husband make sense of her affair by providing him will all the pieces of the puzzle?


----------



## Laureen

snap said:


> To be fair, he could see AA as a place where you picked up your lover and was not very welcome to you going there again for that very reason.
> 
> Sorry for turning the tables, but you mentioned there is a reason to every problem in the marriage. I think there was a reason to this problem of his too, although perhaps it's not something you're willing to admit.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, open ears and open eyes worked better for me.



Oh hey, You ARE absolutely right that he could have seen AA as a threat for that reason but the biggest reason he felt threatened (HE said this in counselling) is that he KNEW he treated me and the kids very, very poorly and that he did not know how to be any better than he was at that time and that he KNEW how happy I once was (that is why he was drawn to me) and was afraid that I would find that again and he would lose me once and for all because he did not know how to be a partner and a father. But indeed, I hear you. 

And as far as HIS problems? Well, I was very very clear about that. He, from the very beginning was a very selfish, cruel and manipulative, uncaring person if he did not get 'his way' all the time. And his way was to not come home, to refuse to parent and expect me to do it and then scream and yell about it. To make plans and not show and then to belittle me if I was hurt over it, to hit me, etc... I am 100% honest about the entirety of our problems, EVEN MINE. And, with all of that I just told you, I do NOT blame HIM for me. I once did but today I know the truth.

I had known him for years as a casual lover and great friend. Never had it occurred to me that the reason his wife had divorced him (after a year of marriage) might have been because he treated her badly (because he treated me wonderfully when we were friends and nothing was required of him). Sex was fantastic and we laughed and I was a stupid, stupid woman. I believed I was in love... I CHOSE to ignore every red flag once he moved in. I CHOSE to overlook the first time he hit me and the second time and the third time, etc... because he was drunk when it happened. I CHOSE to call rape a marital obligation, etc... So, I then CHOSE to drank when I could not face the truth and I went downhill very, very fast. I withdrew from the marriage and became closed. I was in pain. After a while, I began to turn pain into anger that he would continue to treat me as he did. I began to blame him for everything. That IS the absolute truth. 

Still, HE is NOT to blame. Neither one of us had any idea what relationships are. I had two drunk parents EVERY DAY of my childhood. I witnessed my father wield a machete' at my mother when I was a child and when he was released from the 'hospital' I witnessed my mother kiss him and hug him and pretend it never happened. When my mother tried to better her life and go to school, my father spent a year on the couch wallowing in self pity because she might be able to support herself and not need a man who was not engaged in the marriage. (not that she had been engaged... but she was trying to make changes for the betterment of their life together). I had a drunk/pill head grandmother whose husband would not divorce her because of it and instead moved out and for all the years I can remember, they both had significant others and my grandfather visited her and the kids each day before going home to his live in GF. My examples left me wide open for the marriage I ended up in. (In fact, my first husband was a very well grounded and mature individual. Family oriented and pleasant and peaceful... I had had nothing but chaos all my life and did not understand my 1st husband. He was stable and I called that boring. I LEFT!!!).

My husband had an alcoholic father who treated his family as second fiddle to his alcohol. My mother in law put up with it and acted like a sweetheart until the day he died. She was a rock and never complained. SO... my husband had THAT example... A man gets to be who he wants and do what he wants and treat others the way he wants and NEVER has a consequence. 

So, we BOTH were mentally, emotionally immature and maladjusted to life. It is not our parents fault nor is it my fault he was the way he was and it is not his fault I became who I became. I was a train wreck waiting to happen. As was he. 

And I repeat, adultery does not just 'happen'. In most cases (if not all) the story goes much, much deeper. Happy and contented people do not do that unless they are absolute narcissists and even a narcissist who loves their spouse and wants a good relationship will LEARN how to have a good relationship.


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## snap

Yes Laureen, adultery does not just happen. There is a cause and a reason to every ill thing in this world (and if not, you can always make up a plausible one). Yes, we all are victims of circumstances.

Still, out of two people in one marriage sh*tty for both sides, or great for both sides, often one would cheat and and another wouldn't.

People have free will, and some people are weak. We are no animals, it's no use to explain all your actions just by circumstances alone. Cheating is not rape, it's a choice made by free willing adult.

I see that you are deeply scarred by your husbands physical abuse. Frankly this is good enough reason to abandon him, and you are justified in your anger. Still the proper action would've been not to cheat but move on in your life without him.

Anyway, not every situation is like yours. Most people here are not abusers or alcoholics.


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## Laureen

morituri said:


> Laureen, I see what you are driving at but not all betrayed husbands are like yours. Many of us were good husbands who did our best to treat our wives with love, kindness and respect and for all of this they still chose to cheat on us. They then plead with us not to divorce them and expect us to be satisfied with the information they provided us. This information usually is only the tip of the iceberg because they tried to minimize the impact of their betrayal by withholding more information regarding their affair(s) for fear of pushing us over the edge and deciding to leave them. We sense that we are not being given the whole truth and we are often right. They have the complete picture of what the puzzle looks like and yet they only provide us with a few pieces of that puzzle. How can a betrayed husband be expected to move forward with reconciliation if the unfaithful wife doesn't want to help her husband make sense of her affair by providing him will all the pieces of the puzzle?



I hear you loud and clear. So you must be the 1 man who has never ever allowed your relationship to wither and left your wife with an emotional void?? 

It is so hard to fathom... It is so unlikely that both of you did not play a part LEADING TO IT. No that does not make it your fault. She had other alternatives. So do you. No you do not have to accept it and move on. But I offer you this question?

Do you really, really want to know everything about it? Would it make it so much easier for you to picture your wife doing particular things with someone else or someone doing particulars to her? Would it make it easier for you to make love with your wife while picturing all of this? NO WAY! 

Our MC told my husband he needed to cut it out and start working on himself while I worked on me. Only that way could we grow. Of course we had together stuff to work on too between visits. I can tell you honestly, our marriage has gotten better because of the work we have individually done on ourselves. 

I know absolutely that not all marriages are like mine. In my original response to the OP I stated that I knew that but in order to give my own experience AS THE CHEATER, I laid out my own experience. My marital problems were certainly to the extreme. But even then, the affair was WRONG!! And even then, the affair was the turning point in our marriage. If it had not happened, I would have continued getting well in AA and my husband would not have been body slammed with pain - propelling change - and I, getting well would have eventually left him. 

We have an interesting marriage today. He and I and I are both completely aware that we may end up divorced in the near future... if those warm feelings do not return to me. His growth in AA has made him a much better person and he says, very lovingly and sincerely that he really wants, more than anything for me to be in a relationship with someone who not only loves me, but that I love. He hopes that he is that person but fully understands why it is hard to open my heart to him today but we work on it. I understand fully that he DESERVES a woman who loves him and I want that for him. So, we talk very openly about the good things we have today and how we got to where we are and we don't look too far ahead. We make few plans for the future because we just don't know yet. No matter what... Today it is so much better than it ever was and without the affair experience, he would not have woken up. I simply would have had enough and kicked him out and it would not have taken long. I flew through my steps in AA because I wanted to be well and strong.

I am sorry that you are dealing with this. I know how badly it hurt my husband and I can only hope that you and your wife experience growth in leaps and bounds. INDIVIDUAL growth. That is how one affects change in relationships... PERSONAL growth.


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## Laureen

sinnister said:


> Meeting the wealthy man that showed her a life of luxury is priceless...
> 
> And you're not supposed to have ANY relationships WHILE IN AA.
> 
> You've learned nothing.



I did NOT have a relationship in AA. I had the relationship in REHAB. In AA I had to become honest about it.


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## Laureen

snap said:


> Yes Laureen, adultery does not just happen. There is a cause and a reason to every ill thing in this world (and if not, you can always make up a plausible one). Yes, we all are victims of circumstances.
> 
> Still, out of two people in one marriage sh*tty for both sides, or great for both sides, often one would cheat and and another wouldn't.
> 
> People have free will, and some people are weak. We are no animals, it's no use to explain all your actions just by circumstances alone. Cheating is not rape, it's a choice made by free willing adult.
> 
> I see that you are deeply scarred by your husbands physical abuse. Frankly this is good enough reason to abandon him, and you are justified in your anger. Still the proper action would've been not to cheat but move on in your life without him.
> 
> Anyway, not every situation is like yours. Most people here are not abusers or alcoholics.



Oh I fully agree with you 100% on each WORD you wrote. I do NOT justify what I did. It is all part of what led to it and I HAD OTHER CHOICES as I CLEARLY stated. I could have and should have LEFT in the very beginning. I did not so I WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM. What I did was WRONG. 

I am only confused on one thing you said. You said, "cheating is not rape." I don't know if you misunderstood me. I never said my cheating was rape. I said my husband raped me throughout our marriage. YES, husbands rape wives all the time even without ripping their clothes off and pinning them down. If a man pesters and begs and grinds on you and pouts and wakes you up every 4 minutes for several hours because he wants sex.... and you finally do it because if you do not, you do not ever sleep??? That qualifies as rape. If I CHOSE to engage 3 nights a week because I WANTED to, he would still do this for HOURS 2 or 3 nights a week. And as long as woman is left with NO CHOICE but to engage in order to end her torment, then yes it is rape. It is STILL FORCE. My affair was NOT rape and I never said that it was.

Other than that, you are spot on. I make no excuses for my behavior. I simply told the facts!

But I do NOT believe for a moment that people who are cheated on are 100% lovely in their relationships. That is BS. EACH partner causes problems in their relationships and still it is NOT excuse for cheating. BUT cheating, like in my case, CAN be the wake up call and can affect great change.


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## Beowulf

Laureen,

My wife Morrigan is on these boards. She will tell you that while I wasn't perfect I did not do anything to make her cheat on me. I was 100% loving in our relationship. In our case it was a lack of effective communication and many unexplored misunderstandings that caused her to withdraw from me. Unfortunately I had no warnings that there was a problem. She never once complained to me about my role as husband and father. She told me her withdrawal was due to work stress and I believed her. I think this happens in more cases than WS will admit.


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## morituri

Laureen said:


> I hear you loud and clear. So you must be the 1 man who has never ever allowed your relationship to wither and left your wife with an emotional void??


The emotional void was already inside of her. There was a huge trauma from her past that she NEVER, EVER told me about before, during and after our time together (I found out about it last year, way after our divorce was finalized). Agree with me or not but THERE ARE broken people out there who, unlike your husband, hide their state really well.



> It is so hard to fathom... It is so unlikely that both of you did not play a part LEADING TO IT. No that does not make it your fault. She had other alternatives. So do you. No you do not have to accept it and move on. But I offer you this question?


You make the assumption that all affairs are due to the marital environment and that simply is not true, many are but not all. Even good marriage can be a victim to infidelity if one or both spouses choose to cross marital boundaries. You also have what I just talked about, a broken spouse with issues that pre-date the marriage. In these situations the betrayed husband DID NOT play a part leading into it because IT WAS ALREADY THERE, INSIDE THE UNFAITHFUL WIFE.




> Do you really, really want to know everything about it? Would it make it so much easier for you to picture your wife doing particular things with someone else or someone doing particulars to her? Would it make it easier for you to make love with your wife while picturing all of this? NO WAY!


Some husbands do but personally no I don't want to know the gory details. But you know what? I had no choice. I happened to find a video on her photobucket account showing her naked and engaging in sex with the OM.



> Our MC told my husband he needed to cut it out and start working on himself while I worked on me.


And sometimes that working on oneself means leaving the unfaithful wife in order to heal. I had to because the pain was simply too much for me to endure and her presence was a trigger for me. There was simply NO WAY that I could have healed with her present.

It's good that you own your betrayal and other personal issues as well as your husband has begun to own his. No matter what the marital environment is like, all of us, betrayed and unfaithful, are responsible for our actions.


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## warlock07

> I am NOT saying that that is what is going on but really, message boards are very, very one sided in most cases. Nobody is a fly on the wall and is able to see what really is or is not taking place in that marriage.


Like your own story? 

Then again, is it a coincidence that your affair partner is a rich guy ? Don't get pissed about what I am saying though. There might be a truth to it.



> Hmmm... I know that most people who get pissed off about something someone says usually see truth in the words spoken. Maybe the pissed off person is not the best possible partner they can be?


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## Laureen

warlock07 said:


> Like your own story?
> 
> Then again, is it a coincidence that your affair partner is a rich guy ? Don't get pissed about what I am saying though. There might be a truth to it.


I am absolutely NOT pissed about it, BECAUSE I accept MY repsonsibility in it. And I am NOT proud of the way I lived at that time. I know I caused extreme pain!! 

And I never said I did not play a part in my marital problems! No way. I came into it damaged due to my life experience and unable to act maturely and responsibly. I expected him to change into a better person if I tried harder, did more, tolerated more. So, I set myself up for resentments. Further, when I could tolerate no more, I chose to drink and I, having made that choice CAUSED a chain a circumstances in my marriage that kept setting me up for more and more resentment and anger and pain. No, I did NOT enter my relationship with this man as a drunkard. I hardly ever drank back then because alcoholism runs rampant in my family. I was NEVER going to bring up my daughters in that environment. I did NOT enter this relationship with mentally, emotionally abusive behavior. I did enter it with a past filled with mental/emotional damage as a child. I entered it as a emotionally immature child in a grown up body, filled with delusions of grandeur and unrealistic dreams. I entered it in a state of being maladjusted to life. I ABSOLUTELY contributed. And I became the same kind of person I lived with as alcoholism consumed me... selfish, self seeking, self-serving, ego-centric, etc... 

HENCE, when I went to rehab filled with hate and anger for my husband (which was really great pain because I could not stop reliving every horrible thing between my husband and I. And there much self pity, fear, and shame all due to having dragged my kids through this same hell I had lived as a child). I really just wanted to die. I saw no hope in my future. And so, as I began to feel a little bit better (NO I WAS NOT MENTALLY WELL after years of inebriation. Nor was I emotionally well after years of playing a role in such a warped and destructive relationship. I began to have hope for a future IF I could stay sober. I also knew that my husband had NO intention of putting down the alcohol and I certainly could not ask him to and I did not ask him to. But I knew very well if he did not stop he would not change even a little bit. (During a 3 year period of 'dryness' - when we went to AA but did not DO AA - life had been much better. We were both much better people during that time, so I KNEW there was a chance if he stopped too) Anyways, we'd had a conversation over the phone while I was in rehab. I told him when I get home, I planned on going back to AA and getting a Big Book sponsor and working the program - His response was, "You had better not expect me to stop drinking, because after all, I work hard and I have the right to do what I want regardless of who it affects and if you don't like it, don't come home and don't even think about custody!" 

So, that is what I was coming home to. And I was filled with even more fear. I had begun to get close to someone and yes, he offered me a life I had never known and I was STILL NOT WELL. I latched onto that idea because I feared my husband and I feared my ability to stay sober while he continued to be who he was. And yes, I had an affair. Yes, I did. 

I am not that same person today. 2 years after starting my journey (living with my husband not making too many changes, but trying) my husband finally conceded that he is alcoholic and joined me on this journey. So, in the last 7 months he has changed so very much that he hardly resembles the little boy he was. Today he is a man. Today I am a lady. 

So, In reply to what you point out to me about my affair with wealthy man... I can only say I included that peice of information for a reason... With all the stuff I had grown up with, with all the stuff I endured from my husband, and DURING THE TIME WHEN I DID NOT ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for my part in the marriage, I was EASILY swayed in that direction... I was a mental/emotional wreck. It is NO excuse. The fact is, I USED him for my own purposes. I was selfish, self-centered, self-seeking, self-serving, etc... He was a way to turn the screw because I was filled with anger and pain and he was a way I truly believed I could make my husband leave our home so I would be able to stay with the kids. I had NO intention of letting the OG buy a house on the beach for us. I refused to accept the cash and checks that came in the mail. I refused to accept the car he offered to buy. I ONLY kept in phone communication after I left rehab because I DID get a perverse thrill AT THE TIME watching my husband writhe and knowing that I finally had some way to hurt him as badly as he had hurt me. Would I have eventually taken money? I don't know. I cannot say but I can tell you this... It is BECAUSE I came into AA after I flew home, that I became honest. I am talking about honesty in regards to MY CHARACTER DEFECTS. What is wrong with ME? It is that honestly that made me see how I had caused harm and that revelation is what caused me to decide to give my marriage a chance, and I ended it once I understood the person I had become. I was filled with shame and I had to make it as right as possible. And, I sat down one night with my husband and told him everything. Instead of flipping out and harming me, he cried. I told him that if he is willing to WORK on this marriage, I was willing to go to counselling. 

Anyways, No I am not 'pissed about it'. I suspect you chose to say that TO piss me off though! LOL


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## Remains

Laureen said:


> But I do NOT believe for a moment that people who are cheated on are 100% lovely in their relationships. That is BS. EACH partner causes problems in their relationships and still it is NOT excuse for cheating.


I have found your story very interesting Laureen, and indeed warming. But I have to disagree with you here. I am sure when you say this that you have a long and faithful marriage in mind, and that after some considerable time one person cheats. So in that case, I agree somewhat. If one person within that marriage feels neglected, needs are not being met, unhappiness sets in, and if the pushes for change result in nothing, yes, non cheaters will leave, cheaters will cheat, in that situation. 

My situation was that I met someone, he claimed total love and commitment to me, I loved and adored him. He was my everything and I wanted him for the rest of my life. He claimed all this to me too. Said he wanted me forever, wanted me to bury him (in the nice sense, as in together forever  ) We got on well, brilliantly, have so much in common, a great partnership. We had great sex, I couldn't keep my hands off him, fancied him beyond what I thought was possible, I wanted sex more than him so he certainly wasn't lacking or left wanting in that area. He even came home one day with my name tattooed on his arm. He really did want me and love me. All was perfect really. But he had a weakness, and he was selfish, though only in the cheating sense. In all other ways he was a giver. He liked to do things for me, he showed me so much love, and I in return loved to do things for him, displayed my love in so many ways. It really was a great relationship and a great partnership. But he cheated. He cdn't keep away from his ex.


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## lordmayhem

Beowulf said:


> Unfortunately I had no warnings that there was a problem. She never once complained to me about my role as husband and father. *She told me her withdrawal was due to work stress and I believed her*. I think this happens in more cases than WS will admit.


While I wasn't the perfect husband either, I was told this too. So I worked even harder to make her happy and she continued to pull away. Later, I found out she had reconnected with her HS boyfriend. At least to my face, she told me I was a good husband and father. To OM, I was the evil douche bag keeping her from the love of her life.


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## Laureen

Remains said:


> I have found your story very interesting Laureen, and indeed warming. But I have to disagree with you here. I am sure when you say this that you have a long and faithful marriage in mind, and that after some considerable time one person cheats. So in that case, I agree somewhat. If one person within that marriage feels neglected, needs are not being met, unhappiness sets in, and if the pushes for change result in nothing, yes, non cheaters will leave, cheaters will cheat, in that situation.
> 
> My situation was that I met someone, he claimed total love and commitment to me, I loved and adored him. He was my everything and I wanted him for the rest of my life. He claimed all this to me too. Said he wanted me forever, wanted me to bury him (in the nice sense, as in together forever  ) We got on well, brilliantly, have so much in common, a great partnership. We had great sex, I couldn't keep my hands off him, fancied him beyond what I thought was possible, I wanted sex more than him so he certainly wasn't lacking or left wanting in that area. He even came home one day with my name tattooed on his arm. He really did want me and love me. All was perfect really. But he had a weakness, and he was selfish, though only in the cheating sense. In all other ways he was a giver. He liked to do things for me, he showed me so much love, and I in return loved to do things for him, displayed my love in so many ways. It really was a great relationship and a great partnership. But he cheated. He cdn't keep away from his ex.


Indeed, in one of my replies I did allude to the narcissistic. As you say - he had a weakness. He was selfish, though only in the cheating sense... He could not do enough for you. And you in return could not do enough for him. That is lovely behavior. The way you say it, it sounds like TOO much was being done which is classic in a person who feels insecure about what they bring to the relationship, so they LOSE THEMSELVES while caring so devotedly to the other one! You each end up wearing love goggles. Further, it sounds as though he may have gotten an ego boost from that over indulgence. "Could not keep your hands off him..." 

What is in the person who chooses a narcissist? Narcissistic people absolutely have an air about them. I am a narcissist in many areas of my life! I did NOT know this until I began to look at my character defects. If I am a giver (which by nature I am) then when I want more affection or better treatment, I will become MORE of a giver, hoping to affect a certain result. He will love me even more. He will speak more kindly. He will take me out to dinner, etc... When it does not work, I will try harder. (while the normal person will soon say, "Well this is total BS. He is unkind and unloving. I am done) But NOT me!! That IS self seeking behavior. People who avoid conflict do it because they need the atmosphere in a relationship to always be perfect to suit them, so they avoid and wear blinders. People who throw their money around are doing it for an ego boost... So, this man I met in rehab, being just sick as me and throwing around his wealth, got the result he wanted. He got his ego fed by me and I got what I wanted (because I am a giver). I gave him a roll in the hay so I could have a person who I could use for my very self centered purposes. 

A person who goes way overboard with gifts is buying affections because they don't feel they can show you love, affecting a return of affection. They feel empty, with not enough to offer. So they show you love through gifts. People who feel this way about themselves often need their ego fed and often by the opposite sex. Many many people feel this way and MOST people get their ego fed through casual and harmless flirtation. SOME people - the narcissist, takes it a step further. 

Yes, everyone plays a part. Even the most innocent plays a part. When the part is not obvious then it can be as simple as being so love struck, that we wear love goggles. Choosing a partner who displays defects of character is all one has to do to play a part. EVERYONE'S shortcomings become obvious in very short order. So when blinded by great sex and great companionship (as was I in the beginning) one ignores the subtle red flags and becomes deeply immersed and it gets hard to see the the occasional weed (defect) in the garden (assets)

Love Goggles


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## vi_bride04

Laureen - I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story. It gives me alot of hope that I will be able to change the patterns of my abusive childhood to make my personal relationships that much better. I am really starting to see I have quite a bit of trauma to deal with - watching my dad beat and kick my mother and then my mother turning on her children with emotional abuse since she was not strong enough to leave....my H tells me when I am acting childish - "You sound like your mother". It helps snap me out of some of my way of thinking. 

Such a shame children can be damaged so easliy by their parents and then the cycle continues


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## Laureen

@ REMAINS --- I just wanted to readdress something because when I posted earlier I logged offline and had the nagging thought that I was not completely clear in my thoughts. 

There are people who are BLAMELESS in their partners cheating... However NOBODY is without a part to play in sticking around for their own pain... And I believe it to be 100% true because those things that make us wear love goggles are the very reasons we STAY for mistreatment. We are damaged and seek another to fulfill us in one way or another. Two people feed into that kind of relationship. And one CAN BE blameless in the others cheating but certainly the hurt one has stuck around to be hurt by ignoring all the subtle signs. 

In the end NOTHING justifies cheating. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Even when, like in my case, the end results turned out very well, it is wrong. It causes great harm and indeed, it is a selfish act.

When I did it, I was wrong, wrong, wrong! 

God Bless you


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## Remains

Yes Laureen u are right...again. I have looked at myself a lot in why I did not address the red flags earlier...not enough experience I think. I didn't really know cheaters like him before. All the ones...well...one...that I experienced, he was not manipulative and loving and giving. He was obvious. I stayed with him 3 months. This man, the one described above, he completely pulled the wool over my eyes, gave me everything I had ever wanted in a relationship and had thought was never possible. And the relationship I describe above was far from perfect, I missed out all the crap parts! Unnecessary in order to make my point. They were all the good parts, and they were worth all the negatives (not worth the cheating tho) He was difficult and moody and so on, but I loved him deeply and liked all of him totally. I even loved his negatives. And I certainly was not without mine. And I was certainly not overly caring and giving, and him too, like those people who are like some kind of marital slave/parent. It was all in a very balanced way, and fun, and yes it was lovely. He would offer to do things for me, he would help me with what I was doing, he would do things without being asked, he would also tell me to sod off and do it myself or tell me no it is your turn. And all that vise versa too. Our relationship was not as slushy as it sounds. Yes a lot of love, we did a lot together, loved being in each others company, but it was a feisty and bickery and turbulent relationship. A very passionate relationship on many levels. But we worked really well together. Very similar on many levels, very compatible, very argumentative (though we didn't really argue much after the first year) and very much in love. And all that while laughing (and bickering) the whole way through. That is why I ignored the red flags also along with the lack of experience of cheayers and their behaviour. After the first year (that was awful due to his cheating, his behaviour was intensely hot and cold) everything improved ten fold. And all his good points came more to the surface and his bad points diminished. He became mostly hot. And so when I believed there to be more things going on, which he denies, it has been very difficult to leave him. Though I think I have managed to this time. I hope. But I so so desperately wanted it to work out, wanted him to be honest and truthful so that I could forgive & move on. So wanted to believe and trust him. But I don't believe. He maintains he is though. And so I have left the love of my life (and he is. For all those reasons above) on things that I may possibly be wrong about. I don't think I am though. Ah well.

Sorry, I feel I have taken away from the thread here. I will shut up now.


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## OldWolf57

is this Amos thread or Laureen's


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## strikethree

Laureen said:


> So you must be the 1 man who has never ever allowed your relationship to wither and left your wife with an emotional void??


You're a real piece of work. If I were to flip that coin I would say I guess you're the one woman who never neglected her husband's sexual needs and was always faithful. But I guess we can rule out that last part.

Anyway, this is a huge threadjack.


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## Laureen

The last two who said this is a thread jack... I get your point entirely. It was never intended that way. And did turn out that way. If someone replies to something I wrote, of course I explain further however the original post I put on here was in reply to AMOS and OTHERS commented to me. SO, NO I did NOT hijack, I participated in discussion with an open mind AND honesty WITHOUT attempting to cut people.... I know me and I now am very aware of other people and their pain based on how they act and things they say. But I would never be belittling to them. Instead, I reply to people because I am concerned that my truthfulness and blatant honesty about responsibility hits nerves, which it obviously does. Nerves cannot be hit and feelings cannot be hurt IF there is NO truth perceived by the reader... And so gently and as tactfully as possible address what has been said to me. 

But I would indeed be happy to step out for 2 reasons, the least important of course being that people don't read through entirely before replying. They glance through the posts with angry goggles and 'pick out pieces to poke at instead of reading it ALL - for instance STRIKETHREE - indeed I have repeatedly stated where I WAS RESPONSIBLE TOO!! And indeed, I DO NOT give my husband all the sex he wants. I have learned that I have the RIGHT to say no and I have the RIGHT to have that respected. And indeed, I AM a real piece of work. I am the result of God working in my life today. Yes, I AM a real piece of work!! And because I invited God into my heart, I AM WHOLE and HAPPY today. My husband is ALSO a real piece of work - thanks be to God!! Thank you for letting me know that you can see that! It means a lot.

And MOST IMPORTANTLY --- AMOS, this IS your thread and in the beginning, I simply replied to YOU from a cheaters perspective - who now is actually very well educated in this area as my dearest friend is not only a strong member of AA but is also a Marriage counselor - NOT our MC. My friend is the one who put a mirror in front of my face to see ME and who I am and the MC that my husband and I see together is the one who put the mirror in front of my husbands face to see HIMSELF and who HE is. Our MC is the one who made it clear that WE both have responsibility. And he was the one who told my husband to 'drop it and work on himself while I work on myself'. I was simply sharing TO YOU about that. I AM sorry for taking the bait when people have commented back to me. For now I see that SOME of this was baiting.... MOST people here actually appear rather honest by being able to read it, digest it, ponder it and actually say, Ahhh... Maybe there IS something to this. And those people are the ones who have hope of moving on - either with HAPPY marriages or moving on in HAPPY a life without that person, more educated about THEMSELVES. In the end one can ONLY be responsible for oneself and that means making hard choices. Neither choice is easy. Walk away, get some counselling, learn about and work on yourself... OR choose to fix the marriage, leave YESTERDAY behind you, see your spouse as she is TODAY and EACH of you work on YOURSELVES because each of you has your own issues (Likely before this happened) and definitely since it happened. Through working on yourselves, you both have more to bring to the marriage.

Amos, I hope that you both heal. I will pray for both of you.


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## OldWolf57

Laureen, I understand what you are saying, was not accusing, just reminding. However some have been so hurt by cheating that when faced with a cheater, no understanding is forthcoming.


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## OldWolf57

so plz, don't bow out if you feel your point of view is helpful.


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## Laureen

OldWolf57 said:


> so plz, don't bow out if you feel your point of view is helpful.


Thank you and I will do my best to participate with fewer words. Hard to do when trying to be honest AND tactful while considering feelings of betrayed people. I DO know that when faced with a cheater, people wearing angry goggles cannot read the entire picture. Anything positive is just 'RED' and anything to pick apart character is clear. I DO get it because - hurt people hurt people. Especially if it means lashing out at someone who has done the exact thing that caused them pain. And I DO believe that my perspective IS helpful however, I can certainly try to be less wordy and ignore replies that are intended to bait!!

God Bless


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## Remains

Yes Laureen, when I 1st came on here I tried to say all...TOO wordy! I posted very long replies...not helpful for others, my point got lost on the words and the lengthyness of the post. You should defo try and keep to the point and be less wordy.

Though this is often very difficult. I still often post too long, but not as bad as I was.


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## Humble Pie

what happened to Amos??

Lauren's story was like apples to oranges with Amos! Why didn't you post a thread for yourself...


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## bandit.45

Amos left because Laureen thread-jacked his discussion and turned it into her own soapbox. Why would someone want to stay on a board where no one seems to give a sh*t about the problem he is trying to work through?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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