# "lack of sex" answers, puzzled about attitudes



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."

However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling. 
Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere. 

Yet when a woman mentions sexless life, difference in interest and seeks sex elsewhere the immediate answer is " kick her out", "man up" etc.

I'm sensing a misogynistic attitude. I'm not a raging feminist. I believe that genders have different rolls. 

I'm curious if the attitude on this board is primarily one of men need sex and deserve it at all times, show the woman who's boss and take not crap, and leave /get it on the side when the woman annoys you.

If so, this isn't the promarriage site I thought it was. Seems like a lot of wife bashing tbh: (too fat, not good looking enough, not willing to have a threesome, not kinky enough.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

You aren’t wrong that there are a lot of men with sex is everything attitudes here. There are also lots of other opinions as well. That’s why we tell people take what you find useful and leave the rest.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

For the record I’m in the “sexless marriage needs a divorce” crowd because in my opinion it only causes long term misery. I’ve seen VERY few cases actually work out but then again we are in a forum where people come to complain about things. From the perspective of male attitudes it may help to understand a lot of guys are coming from sexless point of views or they are in marriages where the wife basically hates them and some of it is often well deserved. With that in mind I personally find that the people here maintain a fairly neutral gender stance .... but then again I am a man. On the other side of the equation I find the women to be fair as well. There are a few woman and man haters in the ranks but maybe if you had lived their life you would be as well. If everyone here thought the same way or had the same experiences then this place would really suck. I’ve learned more from those that aren’t like me than those that are.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


NOT EVEN CLOSE. If you are getting that attitude from this site, you aren't reading thoroughly enough...maybe you gravitate towards only certain threads. 

I feel like there isn't enough wife-bashing...or CRAPPY-wife-bashing. Or crappy-PARTNER-bashing in general.

You aren't being specific enough, so I can't specifically tell you what I see differently than you are seeing. I also wonder if your insecurities are playing into what you are interpreting in the posts, since they are all about wives being "bashed" and that's a major fear you have that you struggle with. You seem to have a type of dysphoria that you could be projecting onto the posts you are reading.

I will say that many of the men who post on here are some of the best men I've ever met, who are harder on bad husbands than the women are towards bad wives.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I see many good men posts. I'm not in a sexless marriage so it's not something I can easily relate to. I guess what I am bothered by are the posts of secretly planning to leave, having plans, looking for plan B, etc. I'll admit that bothers me. 

I do read good advice an alternative views that are helpful. On the other hand, the posts that tell men to withhold affection, stop paying attention, involving "dread" etc seem very manipulative and unhealthy.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


I can possibly see you getting that impression if you focus on select members, but I don't think it is the case if you look broader. 

If a marriage is sexless, lacks any intimacy AND one of the spouses is not happy with this situation then sure, divorce is called for. That is called incompatibility. That is assuming they have made some effort to fix the problem. You have to realize that by the time someone posts about a problem here it has probably already reached the boiling point. That is why the advice may often seem extreme, because it is already an extreme situation. If someone came here and said I really want sex every day, but we only do it 3-5 times a week, but I don't know how to talk about it, there won't be a huge call for divorce. That just doesn't seem to be the situation for most people posting here. This all applies equally to men and women IMO. 

I also don't think anyone here says to go have an affair. What they may say is to tell your SO that the situation is not working for you so something has to change, divorce is coming or I'll meet my needs with someone else. I personally think opening the marriage is never an answer, but regardless, this is a lot different than saying go have an affair behind your spouse's back. This all applies equally to men and women as well. 

I think everyone needs some level of intimacy, sexual or otherwise. Deserve is another story. Assuming all else in the marriage is good, then both spouses deserve to have their needs met. I also think you are mixing up family leadership with showing who's boss and taking no crap. As you said, genders have different roles. I am traditional I guess because I believe the husband is the leader of his family. That doesn't mean I boss my wife around and take no crap from her, nor go get a side piece when I'm annoyed. Those are all signs of a very weak man. My favorite way I've seen this dynamic described is I am the captain of the ship (family) and my wife is the first officer.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

A marriage is a sexual relationship. 

Male or female, doesn't matter, if your spouse isn't attracted to you and is disgusted by having sex with you and never really wants to have sex with you, you are basically just friends. 

Because, like I said, a marriage is a sexual relationship. Everyone, even elementary school children understand there is a difference between a friend and dating/marriage. 

Why would someone stay in a marriage to someone who only wants to be friends?

There are more men on this forum who come w sexual marital issues but the advice is always pretty much the same to either sex.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

snowbum said:


> I see many good men posts. I'm not in a sexless marriage so it's not something I can easily relate to. I guess what I am bothered by are the posts of secretly planning to leave, having plans, looking for plan B, etc. I'll admit that bothers me.
> 
> I do read good advice an alternative views that are helpful. On the other hand, the posts that tell men to withhold affection, stop paying attention, involving "dread" etc seem very manipulative and unhealthy.


It's not manipulative.

If your spouse isn't interested in you sexually, why should you continue to pretend and act as though the relationship is a good mutual marriage relationship? Cause, IT'S NOT.

Pretending is what's unhealthy.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

snowbum said:


> I see many good men posts. I'm not in a sexless marriage so it's not something I can easily relate to. I guess what I am bothered by are the posts of secretly planning to leave, having plans, looking for plan B, etc. I'll admit that bothers me.
> 
> I do read good advice an alternative views that are helpful. On the other hand, the posts that tell men to withhold affection, stop paying attention, involving "dread" etc seem very manipulative and unhealthy.


Those suggested actions are sort of designed to manipulate in a way, but they are not unhealthy. What is unhealthy is when a wife goes cold to her husband and no longer allows sex, intimacy and emotional support, but she still expects him to do all the other husband duties. Those are the types of scenarios where you see the suggestion to stop paying attention to her, stop doing things for her, etc. That is the 180. Why should one spouse fulfill the needs and desires of the other if they won't make an attempt to reciprocate? The 180 will hopefully send a message to the other spouse that this is a serious situation and if they still refuse to change it starts the process of detaching and ultimately ending the marriage that is broken anyway.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Livvie said:


> *A marriage is a sexual relationship.*
> 
> Male or female, doesn't matter, if your spouse isn't attracted to you and is disgusted by having sex with you and never really wants to have sex with you, you are basically just friends.
> 
> ...


I'm amazed at how often the bolded point gets glossed over. A marriage without sex may as well just be a roommate agreement. Marriage is supposed to be the ultimate commitment to the person you are romantically in love with.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

I'm just going to put this right here.....


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


Just like the modern day feminist, the bitter men are the loudest. 

I'm with @LisaDiane. You may need to look a little harder. Some threads here are just going to be overloaded with the bitter A-holes (men and women).

So let's be honest here, on average, there is a higher probability for a man to end up in a dead bedroom than a woman. That's just the nature of the beast. As such, I am truly disgusted when I see any man put a woman in a dead bedroom situation. It is difficult for me to understand as a very HD man. I want to shake the crap out of them. Tell them that they are living a life that the majority of men would kill for and they are pissing it away. I'm also very upset at women that put men into a dead bedroom. It is a prison. I know. I lived it for many years. 

My suggestion to a man or woman in this situation is the exact same. Either the LD spouse fixes it, or divorce. Period. I have no sympathy for LD spouses. They should be finding each other and enjoying their sexless marriage together instead of dragging down an HD person. 

I would NEVER suggest in a million years for the HD spouse in a dead bedroom to cheat. No. No way. There is only one thing worse than a dead bedroom in my opinion and that is cheating. While I fully understand, I don't condone. Gotta be stronger than that. Gotta bring the problem into the open and do something about it. Either the sex issue is fixed or amicably go your separate ways. No hatred. No grudges. Just need both people to find their way to a better life.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It c


snowbum said:


> I see many good men posts. I'm not in a sexless marriage so it's not something I can easily relate to. I guess what I am bothered by are the posts of secretly planning to leave, having plans, looking for plan B, etc. I'll admit that bothers me.
> 
> I do read good advice an alternative views that are helpful. On the other hand, the posts that tell men to withhold affection, stop paying attention, involving "dread" etc seem very manipulative and unhealthy.


It can be uncomfortable to learn the true nature of humans especially in the arena of sexuality as most of what we learn from society is full of bull piss. Too many men expect to be loved for WHO they are instead of WHAT they are. If either sex is not bringing some value to the relationship then the hard facts are ... why bother loving you? Ditch the fairytale. I’m a valuable partner and my wife needs to be one as well. I cut her a little slack though because she has nice tits.

Mr. Married


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> I cut her a little slack though because she has nice tits.


I wish more people understood this. My wife's set can solve so many problems.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

snowbum said:


> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling. Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.


I've been on TAM for a long time. Maybe we're living in parallel universes, but I've very rarely seen anyone advise a dissatisfied spouse "get some on the side." Divorce? Yes, if infidelity is discovered, people are pretty quick to advocate divorce. Adultery has no place in marriage. Which is why I'm puzzled about your opinion that folks are suggesting a spouse look for sex outside of the marriage. Posters here are NOT in any way, shape, or form advocating for adultery.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I have always found the advice on sexless marriages fairly even handed but depending on the situation can vary greatly. It is topic that is often discussed usually it's a man coming for advice on the issue. I have also found that it is a problem that almost never resolves itself. Sometimes the description of the situation leads to people suspecting cheating, sometimes the husband is questioned on his actions and attitude to flush out if he is doing things that make him less attractive. I find it is pretty rare that the advice is go get it on the side. Many times that will be mentioned when listing what the options are as in, look you have these options, Begin the 180, go to marriage counseling, get her hormones checked, become a detective and make sure she is not cheating, divorce, get it on the side. Now get it on the side is mentioned but not pushed as a viable option the person giving these options probably assumes the OP knows that is not a good option. The advice does on occasion get more harsh towards the spouse when the OP describes a spouse who has no interest in discussing or working on the issue. The advice can also get fairly harsh towards the OP when they are clearly not addressing the issue in any decisive way.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

The advice to women is the same as it is to men. If your spouse is LD, correct any and all unattractive behaviors you have, give it a bit. If that fails, tell your partner that unless things improve it will result in separation and divorce and give them a chance to work through it but ultimately if nothing improves, leave.

There are a few people on here who will say, “if X doesn’t put out then I’m going to get it on the side” but they’re largely in the minority unless they’re all on my ignore list.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

I divorced after enduring a sexless marriage for years. Best decision I've made in a very long time.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."


I think most people would be happy with that number. Some would even find it too high. Sure there are some people who want to have sex three times a day, especially here in the land of the make-believe, but your frequency certainly isn't low. 

Moving on... 



> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> 
> Yet when a woman mentions sexless life, difference in interest and seeks sex elsewhere the immediate answer is " kick her out", "man up" etc.
> ...


I haven't been reading anything here lately so maybe I've missed something but...

Very, very few people on TAM (regular posters, not trolls) will suggest having a threesome. It doesn't take much looking around to find that. Yes, there is a fair bit of complaining that a wife is too vanilla or a husband likes putting poopy dildos up his butt. That's an incompatibility and it is a real problem for a lot of people. Relationships are full of possible incompatibilities and sexual ones are no less important than financial, religious, lifestyle, etc. Where they fall on the important scale differs from person to person, and that's okay. 

These are also topics that are not easily discussed with friends or family, given the nature, so it makes sense to discuss it "anonymously". They are also hot topics that many trolls use to stir the pot. Keep that in mind. 

There are a few people here who will say to get it on the side, but they are the minority - by far. Again, I'm talking about regular posters who have been here for years. Also, this is the internet. The space where anyone can be whoever they want to be. Sure some posters may be saying they would get some on the side. In reality, they are quite possibly sitting in their mommy's basement with WoW open or would be/are sitting in a sexless marriage for years and doing nothing but pouting. 

TAM is pro-divorce, IMO. At least in many situations and compared to sites like SI (not saying SI/"save the marriage at all costs" is better). You have to remember that everyone here posts through their own lens of how they view the world, their experiences, their beliefs, their pain, etc. 

We will never agree with everyone and the wrong advice for one is the right advice for someone else. That's the beauty of a forum. You get a variety of opinions from different folks who have lived entirely different lives, and you get to choose what advice is right for you and leave the rest.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


You may not be stating the summary as accurately as you think. Is there a reason you're looking at it that way?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

snowbum said:


> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.


Get a divorce? Yeah, that advice is common, and applied equally regardless of gender. Have an affair? Almost no one ever advocates that here. It has happened so few times in my memory that I'm hard pressed to recall even once.

Perhaps you don't see as many women getting the same advice is because there are more men complaining of dead bedrooms.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


If you hang around long enough you'll see that there's about a dozen men who all agree with each other on the subject and are very vocal about it because there is a gang of them, but they are not the only male attitude on this forum, thank goodness. It's a few bitter entitled ones who don't seem like they know what love is and think love is sex. 

There are quite a few happily married and single men on this forum too. Just not as vocal because they don't have an ax to grind.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> The advice to women is the same as it is to men. If your spouse is LD, correct any and all unattractive behaviors you have, give it a bit. If that fails, tell your partner that unless things improve it will result in separation and divorce and give them a chance to work through it but ultimately if nothing improves, leave.
> 
> There are a few people on here who will say, “if X doesn’t put out then I’m going to get it on the side” but they’re largely in the minority unless they’re all on my ignore list.


That simply isn't true that the advice looks the same. 

Man is told divorce it isn't likely to get better and cut off any support, emotional or financial. Check for cheating. And a few posters always say if they aren't going to give you sex ask if you can outsource it or don't ask and get it on the side.

Woman is told have his T-levels checked and asked if she gained weight. Also Check for cheating.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Some helpful comments. I agree there is a vocal minority about cutting off household help, money, etc if they don't get the sex when and how they want it. And I agree the entitlement and man's "right" view is a bit disturbing. I don't seek ways to manipulate and use my husband. Don't know many women who purposely treat people like ****. So I was a bit taken aback by the bitter view points that women want your money and house and once they get it purposely screw you over.


Anastasia6 said:


> That simply isn't true that the advice looks the same.
> 
> Man is told divorce it isn't likely to get better and cut off any support, emotional or financial. Check for cheating. And a few posters always say if they aren't going to give you sex ask if you can outsource it or don't ask and get it on the side.
> 
> Woman is told have his T-levels checked and asked if she gained weight. Also Check for cheating.



You said it best. women no sex? Must be weight gain, they don't look as good, they are boring.

Men: stop affection, stop support, leave or go at it with the single person you know.

There is a sense that the woman caused the problem and the men aren't at fault it must be hormones or not having a hot wife.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

There’s always a choice in this matter.

either give the bitter minority the power to speak for all men or all women…. Or don’t.

so far you seem to prefer giving the bitter minority the power when you’ve already gotten many examples here of men and women that don’t espouse their views.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Some helpful comments. I agree there is a vocal minority about cutting off household help, money, etc if they don't get the sex when and how they want it. And I agree the entitlement and man's "right" view is a bit disturbing. I don't seek ways to manipulate and use my husband. Don't know many women who purposely treat people like ****. So I was a bit taken aback by the bitter view points that women want your money and house and once they get it purposely screw you over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually see men asked all the time if they have gained weight or something else has occurred that made them less attractive. And usually working on themselves is one of the first pieces of advice. I'm obviously looking through a male lens, but I'm just not seeing what you are seeing. At least not to the extent it is being portrayed. One of the most frequently mentioned books for men when they come here about a lack of sex or desire from their wife is Married Man's Sex Life Primer. The major theme throughout that book is for the man to do everything in his power to make himself more attractive. If the wife responds, then great. If not, then it may be time to move along if you aren't happy.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

snowbum said:


> Some helpful comments. I agree there is a vocal minority about cutting off household help, money, etc if they don't get the sex when and how they want it. And I agree the entitlement and man's "right" view is a bit disturbing. I don't seek ways to manipulate and use my husband. Don't know many women who purposely treat people like ****. So I was a bit taken aback by the bitter view points that women want your money and house and once they get it purposely screw you over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I think you need to do is three fold.

One look carefully at WHO is posting a few people have a tendency to post 25 posts in one thread often 2 people echo off each other and so it feels like this huge opinion when it's like the same 4 people in every thread saying such things.

Look at human nature. There are several threads here with women who don't get enough sex. But humans seem to only see people like them so sexless men see sexless men. Also if you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. So people who have been cheated on see cheating in lots of behaviors. And divorced people think that divorce is often times the only solution. All of us me included have only lived our lives and many have friends which are similar to themselves so it's an echo chamber.

3rd be the other voice. If you feel certain opinions are too loud be a balancing voice for the posters who need help. People come here for help. We can't or mostly don't all agree on what that help should look like. The more opinions the posters get the better chance they have of finding a solution that works for them.

Frankly most of the no sex situations are way more complicated than this forum is prepared to handle. Many there is one poster that has kind of summed up a sad but oh so true version of what happens for the woman. She is currently providing her husband sex but feel emotionally ignored and the sex is not usually good. If she tries to speak on it he gets angry or just plan doesn't listen. IN 10 years when they are sexless he'll be pissed and wondering why he worked all these years .... In many cases the spouse on either side doesn't listen (or hear is more appropriate) and in many cases the issues aren't ever really brought up. So yeah by the time they get hear while the marriage might be repairable this isn't the place to do that.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I hear you sister. I get sick of men on here that sound like whiny babies… running off to their porn just because the wifey isn’t an acrobatic porn star HD sex maniac. Porn turned men into entitled, wussified, little perverts… yeah so sad to see. 😢


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Snowbum,

You wrote,

*I'm sensing a misogynistic attitude. I'm not a raging feminist. I believe that genders have different rolls. *

Personally I feel for women in sexless relationships as much as I feel for men in sexless relationships. I think the intense lonliness and feelings of undesirability are gender neutral and this also applies to same sex relationships.

*I'm curious if the attitude on this board is primarily one of men need sex and deserve it at all times, show the woman who's boss and take not crap, and leave /get it on the side when the woman annoys you. *

I would never advocate demanding sex from anyone or pressuring them into it or that anyone deserves it, I think also think prostitution is involuntary sex as well.

I suspect some of the threads you read are ones when a spouse has had an affair and no longer wants sex from their H or W anymore or desires them in any way. In those threads the betrayed spouse is told lies about why the sex has stopped or is lower quality, the betrayed spouse tries to fix things, but sometimes wastes years or decades with someone who will never love them again.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Most people here are totally against cheating but a few do advise the man in a marriage with little sex to ask if she will agree to an open marriage which is mad advise and totally unhelpful. 
The majority do believe in faithfulness to our spouse thankfully. 

Personally I think sex in marriage is very important but marriage should be more than 'I am not getting as much sex as I want/deserve/need' therefore I will either cheat or leave and end the marriage. 
I wouldn't end my marriage if the sex stopped as I love my husband too much and we have far more going for our marriage than sex alone.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

My two cents.....

I never had the problem of a sexless marriage but seems to me if you have exhausted all avenues to fixing the problem then the only option left would be divorce (husband or wife). Life is to short to not to have the things you want.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I hear you sister. I get sick of men on here that sound like whiny babies… running off to their porn just because the wifey isn’t an acrobatic porn star HD sex maniac. Porn turned men into entitled, wussified, little perverts… yeah so sad to see. 😢


Whatever it takes to shoehorn porn into a discussion; you are there ready and willing to do it.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Whatever it takes to shoehorn porn into a discussion; you are there ready and willing to do it.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Anytime someone can use the word "shoehorn" and "porn" in the same sentence I laugh hysterically!! Kudos!!!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@snowbum Let's assume for a minute that your husband slowly started reducing frequency of sex over a period of time until it was basically nonexistent. Then he stops being affectionate. Doesn't want to hold your hand, etc. You ask him about it. He says he loves you, but just isn't interested in sex anymore. Further, he says he really doesn't want you to touch him or kiss him in a romantic way, because it just too strongly implies sex. You clearly express your disappointment. You want physical contact and sex with your husband. You continue to try discussing it over the course of a year, maybe more. Finally he says I'm just not interested in even discussing it anymore, end of discussion. 

How would you react to that. Would you not wonder why he doesn't want you? Would you not think he may be having an affair? Would you not consider divorce?


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I hear you sister. I get sick of men on here that sound like whiny babies… running off to their porn just because the wifey isn’t an acrobatic porn star HD sex maniac. Porn turned men into entitled, wussified, little perverts… yeah so sad to see. 😢


Speak for yourself! All I want is to be able to swing from the chandelier like a good pornstar. Is that too much to ask?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Man is told divorce it isn't likely to get better and cut off any support, emotional or financial. Check for cheating. And a few posters always say if they aren't going to give you sex ask if you can outsource it or don't ask and get it on the side.


Erm, well I don’t say that. I say exactly what I wrote.

I think outsourcing it is not solving the real problem. Any energy spent on that could instead be spent on finding a new partner who actually does want to have sex.


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## Duzzano (Mar 1, 2019)

I think there are some people in sexless or low-sex marriages who are more-or-less content with that. Sometimes that happens as a couple gets older. On the other hand, I am sure there are couples in their eighties and beyond who are quite sexually active. It's all about what works for that particular couple and for the individuals comprising it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cutting off emotional or financial support is exactly the opposite of what the HD partner should do. All they really need to do is stop unattractive behavior and then create some space.

Either this does something or it doesn’t.

The thing is, if you’re not done yet then why live out your life with a spouse that doesn’t want to screw? That’s one of the main points about being in a monogamous relationship. I’m not doing that anymore.

It’s one thing if there are physical problems. My wife has a double whammy of physical problems right now beyond her control. That’s just how it is, but it’s not that she’s like, “Yuck no.” Yuck no is a deal breaker.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Perhaps the OP is referring to some suggestion I made in a few threads, where guys were hopelessly shut out of the bedroom....I will say the same thing now, as I stated then....

A guy in that scenario basically has 3 options...

-Stay, be miserable, go in a quiet room or the shower and beat off, and do the same thing every day or whatever frequency keeps him from losing his mind....Go to sleep, wake up, and wash, rinse, repeat the next time...

-Stay, but get needs met somewhere else, from someone else...There are a variety of options, get a side piece. go to a sex worker, etc...

- Leave and blow it all up....

That's it really....Serious long term sex problems in marriages cant practically be fixed. IME/O....Once that ship sails...its gone...So, all of this "work" will only get you duty sex, at best.....No one I know really wants that..

I want to be clear...these are the options....I never advocated anyone select any of these options, but I know enough guys to put at least a few in each of these boxes....so this is what is going on out there....

I think it's a very tough situation, when this happens....I wouldn't judge anyone doing whatever they need to do to get by...It always puzzled me though, when a woman totally shuts a man down in the bedroom, why does she care what he does at that point?? You will hear women that long shut the factory down, snooping a guys phone looking for porn he's watching.....How the hell is that even remotely logical??


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I couldn’t disagree more with your views on the men of TAM. I’ve never seen a site that hates cheaters more than TAM. I don’t see anyone (male or female) suggesting cheating as a solution. That being said, I am 100% in favor of divorce when you’ve exhausted all options. In fact, that’s the route I’ve taken a couple of times already in my life. Sexless marriages never change in the long run. Most of the HD spouses take the extra crumb or two for a few months and think the problem is solved. However, the problem is usually much more deep rooted than that and they usually never really solve it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Most people here are totally against cheating but a few do advise the man in a marriage with little sex to ask if she will agree to an open marriage which is mad advise and totally unhelpful.
> The majority do believe in faithfulness to our spouse thankfully.
> 
> Personally I think sex in marriage is very important but marriage should be more than 'I am not getting as much sex as I want/deserve/need' therefore I will either cheat or leave and end the marriage.
> I *wouldn't end my marriage if the sex stopped as I love my husband too much and we have far more going for our marriage than sex alone*.


Hopefully you never have the last paragraph tested. We often say we will or wont do certain things under circumstances we haven’t lived.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


In the several years that I have been on this forum, I don't know if I have ever seen one post telling a man or a woman to outright cheat and have an affair. 

You may see that on some Reddit forums or on some kind of red pill or pick up artist forum or some kind of ultra left feminist forum, but I have never seen that here. 

Now what I personally have said here is that if one partner outright rejects the other indefinately or has told them to their face that they no longer want to have a sex life with them and they refuse to address any issues or seek MC etc - Then I have said that they wave their right to expect their partner to remain sexually exclusive onto them. 

In other words, if you refuse to try to meet your partner's needs, then you cannot expect them to remain sexually exclusive or even expect them to remain married to you. You waive all rights to partnership. 

I do not care if it is a man or a woman. 

I do not consider that saying to cheat- I am saying a person who refuses to make the other's needs has no claim over the other's genitalia and what they do with their genitalia is up to them. 

That is my outlook and my position. 

Now many people here still consider that advocating cheating and disagree with me and think that is wrong. 

So that leads me back to what I said that I think you are mistaken that a theme on this forum is cheat or have affairs etc. 

My assessment of this site is that the general theme is the exact opposite and is very ANTI infidelity and very pro marriage and pro monogamy........ often almost to a fault and many people advocate staying in the marriage even in cases of mistreatment and malfeasance.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

snowbum said:


> Some helpful comments. I agree there is a vocal minority about cutting off household help, money, etc if they don't get the sex when and how they want it. And I agree the entitlement and man's "right" view is a bit disturbing. I don't seek ways to manipulate and use my husband. Don't know many women who purposely treat people like ****. So I was a bit taken aback by the bitter view points that women want your money and house and once they get it purposely screw you over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would be interested to know what your advice would be to a poster who has been in a marriage to a partner who will not have sex for lets say 2 years. Everything else in the marriage is ok but it has got to the point where the spouse doesn't even want to discuss fixing the problem won't go to counseling etc they just expect this hypothetical poster to be happy with what they have. In this scenario what would your advice be.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rus47 said:


> Hopefully you never have the last paragraph tested. We often say we will or wont do certain things under circumstances we haven’t lived.


I know what I would do. I wouldn't think twice about staying. Divorce isn't happening if I can help it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Some of you might find this research article interesting. Even though there's a lot of talk on here about divorcing for not enough sex, overall divorce numbers have been on the decline for some time and it's a very small percentage of people who divorce. Of course more people will just live together and overall for fewer people married than they did in 1980. 









The U.S. Divorce Rate Has Hit a 50-Year Low


Divorce in America has been falling fast in recent years, and it just hit a record low in 2019. For every 1,000 marriages in the last year, only 14.9 ended in divorce, according to the newly released American Community Survey data from the Census Bureau. This is the lowest rate we have seen in...




ifstudies.org


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

snowbum said:


> .
> 
> Men: stop affection, stop support, leave or go at it with the single person you know.


I have never once seen anyone advise someone to "go at it" with a single person. 

If you have any specific posts that you can reference seeing someone being advised to cheat, that may help to see what you are refering to specifically. 

Now as far as the mentioning of weight and hormone levels and open marriage , looking for signs of cheating etc etc, yes, those things are going to be mentioned because their consideration is part of the process of addressing the issues. 

Men and women both need to take a look in the mirror (figuratively as well as literally) to see if there is something in themselves that is unattractive or turning away their partner. 

Men and women both need to consider if there is some kind of physiological/hormonal/psychological issue taking place that is hindering healthy sexual functioning. 

Men and women both need to ascertain if there is a 3rd party or porn or something else that is shifting their partner's attentions. 

Men and women both need to look into whether there is some kind of relationship issue that is causing a loss of connection and affections in their partner. 

And finally if the rejecting partner, whether man or woman, is recalcitrant and refusing to address or work on the issues, then open marriage and getting one's needs met outside the relationship is an option to be considered as well divorce etc etc. 

Now are there some general trends that seem directed more at one gender than the other? Of course there is because men and women are different and have different sexualities. 

Most as a group are less likely to have their sexuality negatively impacted by anxiety or feeling overwhelmed and less sensitive to emotional and relationship issues so if a man is not showing sexual interest in his partner, AS A GENERAL TREND, it is more likely going to physical or hormonal issue or a porn issue etc rather than feeling overwhelmed and distracted because there are dirty dishes in the sink. 
...........and yes, if the wife has gained 50+ lbs that likely will impact his attraction for her. 

Women as a group are more effected by stress and anxiety and feeling overwhelmed and unsupported in the home and family that will impact her sexual attraction and desire for her husband. Women are also more likely to be impacted by relationship issues and her feelings of emotional connection and relationship with her H. Physical health and hormonal balance and such can also have a big impact on a woman's sexuality so that is one of the criteria that need to be looked into. 

So yes, in that sense men and women may be advised differently as a general trend because men and women are different and their sexualities can be impacted differently by different things. 

But I have never seen anyone advised to just go out and cheat.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

bobert said:


> Don't forget, Saint Diana isn't like us normies and most definitely knows _exactly _how she would handle every situation she has never been in.


You are always so offensive and rude. 

Plus you have no idea what situations I have been in. Yes I do know exactly how I would be if sex stopped. It would be an easy decision. I would never leave the love of my life. I have no interest at all in anyone else and am not going to get married again so leaving would be pointless anyway.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


It depends on why she doesn't want to have sex. If there are bonified medical or psychological issues, it is not an issue with me. I get a lot of joy out of doing loving things.

However, if it is just not a desire of hers, than it is an issue of goals within the marriage, which makes it an issue of compatibility. Then, divorce becomes a possibility.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I know what I would do. I wouldn't think twice about staying. Divorce isn't happening if I can help it.


The issue with setting yourself up for criticism like that though is that sex is rarely the only changing variable. 

It's easy to sit and say what you'd do if one act was taking off the table for whatever reason. But it's rarely just that one act but rather a constellation of other issues and relationship problems. 

It's rare that a man just stops putting his penis inside you and everything else in the universe stays the same. There's usually a withdrawal of affection and personal interaction and quality time together and emotional connection etc etc. 

You may be sincere that you could live happily ever after without PIV. But what if he stopped touching you and interacting with you on a personal and emotional level and no longer wanted to be around you and never looked at you fondly or talked to you with that flirty tone in his voice or looked at you with that twinkle in his eye etc etc etc. 

Sex problems are rarely if ever just sex problems.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You are always so offensive and rude.
> 
> Plus you have no idea what situations I have been in. Yes I do know exactly how I would be if sex stopped. It would be an easy decision. I would never leave the love of my life. I have no interest at all in anyone else and am *not going to get married again so leaving would be pointless anyway.*


Who says you have to get married again to leave? Many people leave to NOT ever be married again.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> You are always so offensive and rude.
> 
> Yes I do know exactly how I would be if sex stopped. It would be an easy decision. I would never leave the love of my life.


But if he hasn't touched you or looked at you or spoke to fondly for two years, he would probably no longer be the love of your life.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> Who says you have to get married again to leave? Many people leave to NOT ever be married again.


Truth


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RebuildingMe said:


> Who says you have to get married again to leave? Many people leave to NOT ever be married again.


Presumably most people who leave a marriage where they feel they are getting enough sex would do so to get sex. So they would be dating again and some may hope to find a long term partner/marriage partner.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

This is an interesting article on the subject of sexless marriages. 








Are Sexless Marriages and Relationships Normal? - Sexual Health Center - EverydayHealth.com


Romantic relationships, without sex? They may be more common than you think. Find out what it means to be in a sexless relationship, and why it works for some.




www.everydayhealth.com


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> But if he hasn't touched you or looked at you or spoke to fondly for two years, he would probably no longer be the love of your life.


I would still love him though, but I understand what you are saying. I wouldn't get a divorce though, one is enough, so would try and work through it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> The issue with setting yourself up for criticism like that though is that sex is rarely the only changing variable.
> 
> It's easy to sit and say what you'd do if one act was taking off the table for whatever reason. But it's rarely just that one act but rather a constellation of other issues and relationship problems.
> 
> ...


They can be if the reason is medical.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I disagree OP. While there are a few posters with what appear to be "extreme" views on certain topics, a lot of that would be coloured by their own life experience. There are some great men who post here, and some great women, all of whom have differing experiences in life. I've always found the advice to be fair and generally the same regardless of whether the thread they're commenting on is started by a man or a woman.

I also think you'll find very few who advocate cheating, and any poster who starts a thread, has committed infidelity and shows no remorse gets dragged pretty quickly.

TAM is pro marriage, and marriage is a sexual relationship, and by definition (legal) only involves two people. If consenting adults who are all on the same page choose to go outside the norm, that's their right. It's not my cup of tea - but also not my business.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> They can be if the reason is medical.


That's a whole different animal though. If my husband became unable to have sex due to medical reasons or an accident, that's where love comes into it. That's completely different to a spouse putting the kibosh on a couples sex life, for no apparent reason.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I hear you sister. I get sick of men on here that sound like whiny babies… running off to their porn just because the wifey isn’t an acrobatic porn star HD sex maniac. Porn turned men into entitled, wussified, little perverts… yeah so sad to see. 😢


Dude let’s get real ...... you are the one addicted to porn. It’s blatantly obvious. It’s the only thing you talk about and it is obviously at the forefront of your mind constantly. Just like a real addict you deny that you are. Come on man ..... it’s getting creepy!!!!!

Speaking of which I think I need to add some funds to my PornHub account. Thanks for the reminder. It’s so tough to find midget farm lesbians these days. What’s a guy to do?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> Dude let’s get real ...... you are the one addicted to porn. It’s blatantly obvious. It’s the only thing you talk about and it is obviously at the forefront of your mind constantly. Just like a real addict you deny that you are. Come on man ..... it’s getting creepy!!!!!
> 
> Speaking of which I think I need to add some funds to my PornHub account. Thanks for the reminder. It’s so tough to find midget farm lesbians these days. What’s a guy to do?


This right here. That was PERFECT. 

I couldn't put together a coherent sentence. I was thinking the same thing but couldn't organize my thoughts into a concise statement. 

Thank you for saying this.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

For the most part I refuse to get into the sex threads. Usually I wind up wanting to strangle someone. Seriously.

I see alot of fantasy land, magical thinking. And not just about frequency. Usually the offended partner is all woe is me. I am a great lover, bring home the bacon, help with house/kids, attentive to her needs, attractive blah blah hand him the perfect partner award! Of course perfect partner will claim some usually unspecified fault that he is "working" on so that he looks like he is being "fair". It's all bunk, manure, horsepucky.

And when it comes to weight it is NEVER about their partners health because they love them so much and can't imagibe their life without them. They say it is but its all about sex....uuuugh.

Even in this thread alone "wifely duties" in exchange for house and money has been brought up! As if the vast majority of homes aren't 2 person incomes!. And never mind the fact the their partner had EQUAL say in all aslects of marriage including sex. Just because you NEED it more doesn't give you the automatic right to demand it more.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Dude let’s get real ...... you are the one addicted to porn. It’s blatantly obvious. It’s the only thing you talk about and it is obviously at the forefront of your mind constantly. Just like a real addict you deny that you are. Come on man ..... it’s getting creepy!!!!!
> 
> Speaking of which I think I need to add some funds to my PornHub account. Thanks for the reminder. It’s so tough to find midget farm lesbians these days. What’s a guy to do?


I just spit out my beer. Thanks pal, I needed that laugh!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> They can be if the reason is medical.


We need to differentiate between being UNABLE to do PIV vs rejection of intimacy or simply not wanting to. 

If I lost my tallywhacker in some kind of accident or had some kind of condition it could rise to the occasion, there are 7,352,982 other tricks up my sleeve to please my partner and show her my love and provide an intimate relationship. 

If that 7,352,982 other things were not good enough and she were to leave me do to that one act I could not do without a hard penis, then that would be on her. 

But on the other hand, if I were REJECTING her and not willing to provide her love and intimacy, that is a completely different realm and not an isolated sex problem but rather a facet in a constellation of other issues.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

frusdil said:


> That's a whole different animal though. If my husband became unable to have sex due to medical reasons or an accident, that's where love comes into it. That's completely different to a spouse putting the kibosh on a couples sex life, for no apparent reason.


Yes, love and committment.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> We need to differentiate between being UNABLE to do PIV vs rejection of intimacy or simply not wanting to.
> 
> If I lost my tallywhacker in some kind of accident or had some kind of condition it could rise to the occasion, there are 7,352,982 other tricks up my sleeve to please my partner and show her my love and provide an intimate relationship.
> 
> ...


I suspect that the reasons why one spouse may be less that keen to have sex are many and varied.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> We need to differentiate between being UNABLE to do PIV vs rejection of intimacy or simply not wanting to.
> 
> If I lost my tallywhacker in some kind of accident or had some kind of condition it could rise to the occasion, there are 7,352,982 other tricks up my sleeve to please my partner and show her my love and provide an intimate relationship.
> 
> ...


If you lost your tallywhacker in an accident you should be traumatized. Trauma is a perfectly legit excuse for turning down intimacy. Especially given how attatched (no pun...yes pun intended) men are to tjeir manhood. Bit nope. Said man should suck up the trauma and humiliating psychological associations just so wifey can get off? Suuuuuure.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Erudite said:


> If you lost your tallywhacker in an accident you should be traumatized. Trauma is a perfectly legit excuse for turning down intimacy. Especially given how attatched (no pun...yes pun intended) men are to tjeir manhood. Bit nope. Said man should suck up the trauma and humiliating psychological associations just so wifey can get off? Suuuuuure.


I disagree strongly on multiple counts. 

Ok, yeah if I am in the hospital hooked up to tubes and wires and being monitored etc, that probably is not the best venue for getting down. 

And sure if someone is puking/pooping sick or in acute pain or whatever, that is probably not a romantic time. 

But I do not see a chronic medical condition or physical condition as any kind of end to intimacy. The only thing that will end my interest in intimacy and prevent me from at least making a full faith effort to please whatever partner I am with at a given time is my death. 

If I am in a full body cast, my partner is free to climb on my face and I will do whatever my tongue is physically capable of doing. 

And trauma??? Sister if I am traumatized, my need for intimacy and connection will INCREASE, not go away or be put on the shelf. 

And it will be crucial to me to show my partner that no matter what happens to me, I will do whatever I am physically capable of doing to please her and show my love. 

She gets to decide whether that is good enough or not and whether she will stay with me or move on. That will not be my call to make. I will give all that I am capable. it will be her call whether it is good enough or not.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree strongly on multiple counts.
> 
> Ok, yeah if I am in the hospital hooked up to tubes and wires and being monitored etc, that probably is not the best venue for getting down.
> 
> ...


Sorry, oldshirt, I don't buy it. It sounds so great and dare I say, self less. But you are actually proving my point. You say it right in your very last line. "I will give all I am capable of and it is up to the other person whether it is good enough". No one, ever, should be pushed to define what they are capable of by another persons standards. In a body cast but partner wants oral 3 times a day??? How is that in any way realistic?? It's not. If you have to take it to that extreme to prove a point you are not thinking it through. Sorry.

ETA: That being said if you aren't capable emotionally or physically to meet your partners expectations be honest with your oartners and don't lead them on with false hope.

ETA2: of course not being able to meet someone expectations often depnds entirely if the expectations a A)reasonable and B)doable which on this board is frankly a joke sometimes.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree strongly on multiple counts.
> 
> Ok, yeah if I am in the hospital hooked up to tubes and wires and being monitored etc, that probably is not the best venue for getting down.
> 
> ...


There are different types of trauma, though. There absolutely could be trauma over how you severed your member, why you can no longer get it up or want to, the fact that you can no longer perform (and we see that a lot here), etc.

This is just an unrelatable example and admittedly, I don't know the whole story and maybe I'm being argumentative. But it's an example of how trauma could destroy your sex life entirely.

I know a guy who was in the army and while overseas he had to shoot (and kill) and child. The adrenaline or whatever other bodily reaction caused an erection in that moment. Now, whenever he gets an erection his mind goes to shooting a child. Understandably, he has no interest in any form of a sexual relationship because even just kissing can get the engine going. He is married but as far as I know they just cuddle and whatnot. I haven't talked to the guy in years so who knows.

Therapy obviously would (and should) be used but either it hasn't been or wasn't a cure all - and it never is.

So while you're probably not about to go shoot and kill a child, you could witness something else, experience something, etc. that is so traumatic you shut down sexually.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Erudite said:


> Sorry, oldshirt, I don't buy it. It sounds so great and dare I say, self less. But you are actually proving my point. You say it right in your very last line. "I will give all I am capable of and it is up to the other person whether it is good enough". No one, ever, should be pushed to define what they are capable of by another persons standards. In a body cast but partner wants oral 3 times a day??? How is that in any way realistic?? It's not. If you have to take it to that extreme to prove a point you are not thinking it through. Sorry.
> 
> ETA: That being said if you aren't capable emotionally or physically to meet your partners expectations be honest with your oartners and don't lead them on with false hope.
> 
> ETA2: of course not being able to meet someone expectations often depnds entirely if the expectations a A)reasonable and B)doable which on this board is frankly a joke sometimes.


I'm not selfless. It's probably the exact opposite in fact that it is probably self serving. 

Let me explain. Intimacy and sexuality are very critical to me. I am a very sexual and affectionate person. That isn't just male horniness although there is probably a good dose of that as well. I am very sex positive, I am a sexual being and I believe in my heart of heart that all of God's creatures are sexual beings and that we all have our own yearnings, urges and desires. 

It's a big part of my being a big part of what I offer as a man and partner. I'm not tall and handsome. I'm not rich and famous. I'm not generous and altruistic. And at times I'm not even all that nice. 

But what I am is very loving, affectionate and sexual. I bond and give and recieve love and acceptance through sexuality. 

I have not given my GFs and FWBs and wife and sex partners diamond necklaces or italian handbags or sporty cars or big house in the Hamptons. What I have given them is acceptance and affection and have embraced their inner sexuality and lots and lots of orgasms and cuddles and love'ns. 

Yes I have a job that pays the bills and yes I mow the lawn and shovel the driveway and do the dishes. 

But the main thing I provide and a big part of my worth and contribution in a relationship is my sexuality. 

Some may think that is wrong - but I don't care. I y'am what I y'am as Popeye would say. 

So yes, if I was injured or traumatized or had a health condition, I would not voluntarily put my sexuality on the shelf. I would continue to try to do whatever I could do. 

With that I recognize that may not be enough to keep my current partner. She may leave me (she might anyway even if I'm fine if she just simply doesn't like me anymore) But if she left, I would try to find someone else that would want to be with me despite my shortcomings. It's simply who and what I am. 

It's not self less. It's not for other people. It's me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> There are different types of trauma, though. There absolutely could be trauma over how you severed your member, why you can no longer get it up or want to, the fact that you can no longer perform (and we see that a lot here), etc.
> 
> This is just an unrelatable example and admittedly, I don't know the whole story and maybe I'm being argumentative. But it's an example of how trauma could destroy your sex life entirely.
> 
> ...


I get your point and sht happens. 

I mean yeah, if I get whacked on the head real bad and have an actual traumatic brain injury that alters persona, who knows what would happen. If I have a stroke that kills some part of my brain that controls emotions or sexuality or whatever, all bets are off. 

If I get burned up or disfigured or deformed to where no one will have me, that's another issue. 

But my point is, I will do what I can to the best of my ability. That may or may not be good enough.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not selfless. It's probably the exact opposite in fact that it is probably self serving.
> 
> Let me explain. Intimacy and sexuality are very critical to me. I am a very sexual and affectionate person. That isn't just male horniness although there is probably a good dose of that as well. I am very sex positive, I am a sexual being and I believe in my heart of heart that all of God's creatures are sexual beings and that we all have our own yearnings, urges and desires.
> 
> ...


More and more I get the perception that this is all window dressing for "men like sex, lots of sex, and any woman who wants to be with me better like it in as great a manner and quantity as I do". With the old dash of she is so lucky to have a guy like me. Look at my contribution in the bedroom. Also, this quantity/quality of sex seems in direct opposition to what you listed as deficiences about yourself.

Look I am not here to judge you, but no matter how you dress it up it is still the same faulty thinking most men on this site use, imho.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not selfless. It's probably the exact opposite in fact that it is probably self serving.
> 
> Let me explain. Intimacy and sexuality are very critical to me. I am a very sexual and affectionate person. That isn't just male horniness although there is probably a good dose of that as well. I am very sex positive, I am a sexual being and I believe in my heart of heart that all of God's creatures are sexual beings and that we all have our own yearnings, urges and desires.
> 
> ...


As long as you realize that horniness isn't exactly a rare commodity.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Erudite said:


> More and more I get the perception that this is all window dressing for "men like sex, lots of sex, and any woman who wants to be with me better like it in as great a manner and quantity as I do". With the old dash of she is so lucky to have a guy like me. Look at my contribution in the bedroom. Also, this quantity/quality of sex seems in direct opposition to what you listed as deficiences about yourself.
> 
> Look I am not here to judge you, but no matter how you dress it up it is still the same faulty thinking most men on this site use, imho.


First off most men are going to say they are nothing like me and that I am an outlier here. 

And if a woman doesn't like sex, she's not going to want to be with me and will eliminate herself. 

And if I connect with someone, I consider myself lucky and fortunate. I certainly hope the other person enjoyed themselves as well but it's not up to me or you to determine who else feels lucky or not. 

I'm not really sure where your hostility is coming from. And how can it be faulty thinking if I am discussing my own thoughts and feelings?? If I say sexuality is important to me, how can I be faulty in what I think is important to me?? Makes no sense.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> As long as you realize that horniness isn't exactly a rare commodity.


No it's not. there are 3 1/2 billion horny men on this planet. 

There are 3 1/2 billion horny women too.

The men and the women are just not always horny at the same time LOL


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

snowbum said:


> I see many good men posts. I'm not in a sexless marriage so it's not something I can easily relate to. I guess what I am bothered by are the posts of secretly planning to leave, having plans, looking for plan B, etc. I'll admit that bothers me.
> 
> I do read good advice an alternative views that are helpful. On the other hand, the posts that tell men to withhold affection, stop paying attention, involving "dread" etc seem very manipulative and unhealthy.


Withholding affection?

Interesting you should consider that manipulative. 

Let me make an alternative narration:

No longer investing in someone who will not reciprocate. 

That isn't manipulation unless the intent is to actually dread game your partner, which is something else entirely. 

When the intent is to reduce the resentment you (proverbial) have towards your partner for not reciprocating effort is loving yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> First off most men are going to say they are nothing like me and that I am an outlier here.
> 
> And if a woman doesn't like sex, she's not going to want to be with me and will eliminate herself.
> 
> ...


1) In one of your earlier posts you flat out come out and say if a person refuses to meet their partners needs they can't expect a sexually exclusive relationship. 

2) you have gone on at length about how important sex/intimacy is ---- to you ..with little regard how high a priority it might be to other posters or their potential partners.

3) you question, rather personally I might add, other people's devotion to their partners with many what ifs regarding these factors

4) one minute you basically say it's a deal breaker FOR YOU but then say it's the PARTNER'S fault for not accomodating your desires. How about adjusting YOUR expectations to what she wants??? ( and by you I mean the general guys that want the perfect partner awards)

If it seems hostile, I apologize, it's one of the reasons I avoid sex topic threads. I find many posters rather disengenuous on this topic...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I dunno if I see any point in bringing up oddball, one off "what if's"......Of course, all of those circumstances will have varied and unconventional solutions and work arounds....But I don't really think that's what the OP was originally referencing....

The problem, as I see it, is many fold....

IME, Women often pick partners because they make them feel safe, provided for, and loved This is where the problems often begin.... While Bob from accounting is great father material, earns a nice living, and won't likely stray because he's not really registering on any woman's radar sexually, who get's her panties wet is Charlie the plumber down the street who has an entirely different persona...

Once time goes by and her use of Bob is over, she no longer wants to hold her nose and have this chubby dolt of a guy with a tiny **** sweating all over her...Then comes all the excuses....It's not poor old Bob's fault, heck all the guy wanted is a woman that would love and desire him and maybe share some kids, etc..., that's why he's out there every day cracking a rock...

All this talk of middle aged and post menopausal women not wanting sex as often as men and men should be understanding of this is kinda ludicrous...Not in my experience, and the experiences of many other people I know who maybe on their second go round and can't keep hands off each other. When you get women in these cases, saying sex is not as important as they age, blah, blah, they, IMO, are just rationalizing that to themselves, so that they can keep it going and not upset their lives...

I think the main difference between men and women when it comes to this topic, is if a woman has all the other pieces in her life in order, then the sexual part becomes relegated to "take it or leave it-and don't bother me about it", while the guy really can't do that...Then comes the issues and the constant nagging, etc,,,,The 500 lb gorilla in the corner isn't going to just go away, no matter what the woman hopes...I am not unsympathetic to the woman that has true physical issues that are preventing her from wanting to have sex, but if she isn't actively trying to find an answer to the problem, its sending a clear message to her partner...It would be no different for a guy that has ED and does nothing on his own to remedy the problem..

There is almost no advice or coaching you can give a guy like Bob at that point....It all goes back to the three options I mentioned earlier...Pick your poison...Face the lion, the tiger or the bear...

Perhaps the best solution moving forward for women is to stop picking men for these other intangibles...If the guy you are most attracted to sexually is sexy and hot, but can't keep a job or is an alcoholic, pick him instead of reliable Bob....At least there if you can manage to fix the other aspects, you will always have a guy to make you wet and you won't likely flip the script sexually...Just don't be mad if your gf's look at him the same way, lol.. And if you are a guy, be keen on the signs of a potential bait and switch and avoid at all costs...Like if you take years to get her to date you, that's a problem..


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> They can be if the reason is medical.


But the thing is, medical has to be pretty severe to preclude intimacy. Where there is a will there is a way. Wife n I personally lived fir a year with PIV being impossible after prostate removal destroyed nerves. We were intimate by other means. The will is the key. Unless one of a couple are in a coma


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rus47 said:


> But the thing is, medical has to be pretty severe to preclude intimacy. Where there is a will there is a way. Wife n I personally lived fir a year with PIV being impossible after prostate removal destroyed nerves. We were intimate by other means. The will is the key. Unless one of a couple are in a coma


Yes there can be ways in some circumstances.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> Dude let’s get real ...... you are the one addicted to porn. It’s blatantly obvious. It’s the only thing you talk about and it is obviously at the forefront of your mind constantly. Just like a real addict you deny that you are. Come on man ..... it’s getting creepy!!!!!
> 
> Speaking of which I think I need to add some funds to my PornHub account. Thanks for the reminder. It’s so tough to find midget farm lesbians these days. What’s a guy to do?


I know I’ve struck a nerve when a porn lover goes on the attack. 😂


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Indeed but I’m true to myself always....the good and the bad. I’m no hypocrite.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I truly believe many marriages go south because hubbies tend to turn the beautiful act of marital intimacy into something it’s not- a meaningless sexual release. I think frequent porn viewing is probably one of the causes of this…

I think the subject of porn very relevant to what OP mentioned “_primarily one of men need sex and deserve it at all times, show the woman who's boss and take not crap, and leave /get it on the side when the woman annoys you_.”

The “get it on the side” for 90% of men is porn. This concludes my porn shoehorn.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> Indeed but I’m true to myself always....the good and the bad. I’m no hypocrite.


Trying to save others from the lie of porn isn’t hypocritical… I’m making amends for past sins.

The fact that it bothers you is indicative of your own feelings of guilt.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I truly believe many marriages go south because hubbies tend to turn the beautiful act of marital intimacy into something it’s not- a meaningless sexual release. I think frequent porn viewing is probably one of the causes of this…


Finally. Something I can agree with you about. Something not completely black and white.

I absolutely agree that some marriages can go south because a husband (and wouldn't you know it, some wives too) can go south due to porn use. No question. This can definitely happen. 

However, I must have some special X-Men ability. Somehow, I am still able to be intimate with my wife (even physically and emotionally bond with her!) and still use porn when she isn't in the mood. Being able to do both things has to be some sort of mutant ability or magic. It's the only explanation. 



CatholicDad said:


> I think the subject of porn very relevant to what OP mentioned “_primarily one of men need sex and deserve it at all times, show the woman who's boss and take not crap, and leave /get it on the side when the woman annoys you_.”
> 
> The “get it on the side” for 90% of men is porn. This concludes my porn shoehorn.


Doubtful. You'll shoehorn it into a discussion on marriage finances. And no, porn is not "on the side" for the vast majority of the population. "on the side" means physically touching another human being. Not some picture or video. It may be for you but not everyone.



CatholicDad said:


> Trying to save others from the lie of porn isn’t hypocritical…


Ever try NOT trying to save people? Ever think that maybe most people don't want to be saved? 


CatholicDad said:


> I’m making amends for past sins.


Your sins. Not others. Maybe most people don't think what you consider to be a sin is also a sin for them?


CatholicDad said:


> The fact that it bothers you is indicative of your own feelings of guilt.


Whooooooo Boy!!!!! 

You are well versed. The number of times my parents and religious leaders used this shaming tactic in my youth. You've been taught well.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I truly believe many marriages go south because hubbies tend to turn the beautiful act of marital intimacy into something it’s not- a meaningless sexual release. I think frequent porn viewing is probably one of the causes of this…
> 
> I think the subject of porn very relevant to what OP mentioned “_primarily one of men need sex and deserve it at all times, show the woman who's boss and take not crap, and leave /get it on the side when the woman annoys you_.”
> 
> The “get it on the side” for 90% of men is porn. This concludes my porn shoehorn.


I would agree that the appreciation of the spouse goes downhill, after getting the prize, too many times.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You are well versed. The number of times my parents and religious leaders used this shaming tactic in my youth. You've been taught well.


Your parents and religious leaders were correct: porn is for lowlifes. Even if you love it, and your wife loves having the night off- the “actors” are often victims of exploitation, sex trafficking, or abuse.

Oh, but I know- you only consume ethically produced porn. That’s why Pornhub deleted half their content last year… deleted the stuff the knew they could be held criminally liable for.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Dude let’s get real ...... you are the one addicted to porn. It’s blatantly obvious. It’s the only thing you talk about and it is obviously at the forefront of your mind constantly. Just like a real addict you deny that you are. Come on man ..... it’s getting creepy!!!!!
> 
> Speaking of which I think I need to add some funds to my PornHub account. Thanks for the reminder. It’s so tough to find midget farm lesbians these days. What’s a guy to do?


It's all about midget lesbian auto mechanics now. Have to adjust with the times I guess.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Trying to save others from the lie of porn isn’t hypocritical… I’m making amends for past sins.
> 
> The fact that it bothers you is indicative of your own feelings of guilt.


I think the issue some people have with you is you have this belief that no one can enjoy porn without it warping their mind. You come across as the alcoholic that thinks no one can have a few drinks without it being a problem and ruining their lives. Normal people can watch porn every now and then without becoming addicted or thinking their wives should take a massive dildo attached to a hammer drill while they give it to them in the back door.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

snowbum said:


> I'm sensing a misogynistic attitude. I'm not a raging feminist. I believe that genders have different rolls.


Welcome to the internet. Yes, there are some pretty misogynistic posters, both men and women. There are posters who believe that women should be submissives who provide sex on demand without question no matter her feelings. There are posters that believe that marriage won't work unless the people are partners who respect and love each other and put each other first, and there are posters who believe that the man should always come first and only. I've even seen a pretty regular poster who thinks he is more important than his own children, and his wife has a first duty to HIM, not to their children and certainly not to herself. You're going to see a whole spectrum of beliefs on here. The ignore feature can help you filter out that MGTOW element and eventually you'll create a circle of like-minded people to have discussions with and get advice from.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Your parents and religious leaders were correct: porn is for lowlifes. Even if you love it, and your wife loves having the night off- the “actors” are often victims of exploitation, sex trafficking, or abuse.
> 
> Oh, but I know- you only consume ethically produced porn. That’s why Pornhub deleted half their content last year… deleted the stuff the knew they could be held criminally liable for.


Got it. Well said.

Good to know I'm a lowlife now. 

Glad to know that you know for a fact that I "love" porn.

Glad to know you know EXACTLY what is correct and what isn't. I'm sure my catholic priests, parents and family think the same way.

Oh yeah, they don't see much of me these days....... even though they desperately wish to. It's funny. Why would my parents be so desperate to be involved in my life? I mean, I'm just a lowlife, correct? 

I mean, once you reach the level of virtue that you speak of, why on earth would anyone want to be involved with the life of a lowlife? Certainly I've infected my children (my parents' grandchildren that they don't get to see very much) with my lowlifeness, right? They wouldn't want the stink of my family to rub off on them, right? 


Since you are so great at giving advice, here is some that I hope you seriously think about: Take care with these things you say when it involves family members. Especially children, teens, young adults. Some people are like me. You only get one chance. I can assure you my parents and family kick themselves on a daily basis that they weren't more accepting of people outside of what they considered virtuous. How do I know this? Because they still to this day are desperate to be in my life.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think the issue some people have with you is you have this belief that no one can enjoy porn without it warping their mind. You come across as the alcoholic that thinks no one can have a few drinks without it being a problem and ruining their lives. Normal people can watch porn every now and then without becoming addicted or thinking their wives should take a massive dildo attached to a hammer drill while they give it to them in the back door.


What about the “actors”? What about the poor kids accessing it at age 11 like Billie Eilish?

I think long term porn access can wreck someone but maybe not everyone. But I think _every_ time someone steps outside a marriage for sex- they do serious harm to their marriage and themselves… that’s *Biblical*. I suppose some wives are _relieved_ to be off the hook some nights from their sex obsessed hubbies. It’s just sad though any way you look at it.

I’d be pretty sad if my wife had to step out of our marriage for satisfaction… I want 100% of her and in return give 100% back. When she’s not in the mood, I exercise self control- and wait. What’s wrong with that?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I’d be pretty sad if my wife had to step out of our marriage for satisfaction… I want 100% of her and in return give 100% back. When she’s not in the mood, I exercise self control- and wait. What’s wrong with that?


There's nothing wrong with that. No one ever said there was.

What's wrong is your complete inability to allow others to choose differently, then lumping them all into the "lowlife" category should they decide otherwise. Your behavior towards your wife has never been the problem. It's your behavior to everyone else on this forum who does not agree with you.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Got it. Well said.
> 
> Good to know I'm a lowlife now.
> 
> ...


You skipped my point that the actors are victims of abuse… made this all about your hurt feelings. I apologize if I hurt you. Can you admit that using porn is a behavior one would expect of lowlifes? Clearly it’s not a virtuous act.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> There's nothing wrong with that. No one ever said there was.
> 
> What's wrong is your complete inability to allow others to choose differently, then lumping them all into the "lowlife" category should they decide otherwise. Your behavior towards your wife has never been the problem. It's your behavior to everyone else on this forum who does not agree with you.


Can we agree that using porn is a behavior you would expect of lowlifes?

I retract my statement that “porn users are lowlifes”. Many porn users are doctors, lawyers, and such. But still, it’s not a virtuous act and the actors are often exploited and abused. Can we agree?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> You skipped my point that the actors are victims of abuse…


Fair point. 

You are assuming all actors are victims of abuse.

They aren't. 

Secondly, you glossed over the fact that a lot of the material pornhub removes is due to people doing revenge porn on one another. That is what makes it illegal. Not all illegal stuff removed from there is of the child variety. And abuse of children is straight up gross. 



CatholicDad said:


> made this all about your hurt feelings. I apologize if I hurt you. Can you admit that using porn is a behavior one would expect of lowlifes? Clearly it’s not a virtuous act.


No worries here. You don't have that kind of power. I haven't allowed a catholic to hurt me in a very long time. But it's funny that you think you do! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 

But can I admit that some lowlifes use porn? Absolutely, but this is a ridiculous statement. There are lowlifes EVERYWHERE. As a matter of fact, I know plenty of lowlifes that are catholic. Can you admit there are lowlife catholics?

Who says porn is a virtuous act? Better yet, who cares?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Can we agree that using porn is a behavior you would expect of lowlifes?


No, we cannot. 



> I retract my statement that “porn users are lowlifes”. Many porn users are doctors, lawyers, and such. But still, it’s not a virtuous act and the actors are often exploited and abused. Can we agree?


"Virtuous act" is a meaningless phrase to me, so I cannot comment.

Actors often being exploited is, in some circumstances, certainly true. But it is not universal, and it is not all that hard if one is so inclined to avoid that kind of content. This is simply not the black and white issue that you would like it to be.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> What about the “actors”? What about the poor kids accessing it at age 11 like Billie Eilish?
> 
> I think long term porn access can wreck someone but maybe not everyone. But I think _every_ time someone steps outside a marriage for sex- they do serious harm to their marriage and themselves… that’s *Biblical*. I suppose some wives are _relieved_ to be off the hook some nights from their sex obsessed hubbies. It’s just sad though any way you look at it.
> 
> I’d be pretty sad if my wife had to step out of our marriage for satisfaction… I want 100% of her and in return give 100% back. When she’s not in the mood, I exercise self control- and wait. What’s wrong with that?


The situations of the performers being some kind of sex slaves is not the norm and is a tiny percentage as far as I've read. As far as kids accessing it, I monitor my kids electronics pretty closely. Caught my son once when he was 13, and had to have a long in depth discussion about it and I continue to monitor every device they have. 

Your views on what is stepping out on your marriage is long way away from mine and many others. What is Biblical is of zero concern to me I stopped believing at 13 or 14, just learned too much science by that point to believe anything in there. Not to mention I can't think of one nun, priest, brother I had in my k-12 catholic schooling that I would even classify as a good person, the two brothers (high school teachers) I thought seemed like good people (total drunks but otherwise good) were exposed as predators later on. The hypocrisy of the Catholic church is actually a truly amazing thing the behold.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

TexasMom1218 said:


> Welcome to the internet. Yes, there are some pretty misogynistic posters, both men and women. There are posters who believe that women should be submissives who provide sex on demand without question no matter her feelings. There are posters that believe that marriage won't work unless the people are partners who respect and love each other and put each other first, and there are posters who believe that the man should always come first and only. I've even seen a pretty regular poster who thinks he is more important than his own children, and his wife has a first duty to HIM, not to their children and certainly not to herself. You're going to see a whole spectrum of beliefs on here. The ignore feature can help you filter out that MGTOW element and eventually you'll create a circle of like-minded people to have discussions with and get advice from.


Interesting perspective from someone who joined TAM yesterday.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> Interesting perspective from someone who joined TAM yesterday.


I'm guessing @TexasMom1216 and @TexasMom1218 are the same person...


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> Interesting perspective from someone who joined TAM yesterday.





bobert said:


> I'm guessing @TexasMom1216 and @TexasMom1218 are the same person...


Yes, same person. Had account issues, I've already messaged the administrators about it. I made the account names similar so it wouldn't seem like I was trying to be shady.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

bobert said:


> I'm guessing @TexasMom1216 and @TexasMom1218 are the same person...


Edited now that I saw her reply.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> Edited now that I saw her reply.


 It was a legitimate question.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

To OP, the problem is not “sex or not”. It’s the mismatch in expectation and desire.

it’s cool to have a sexless marriage if both parties wants no sex. I don’t see a problem with that.

but it will be more of a problem if one person wants sex but the other person doesn’t. Especially when there was sex at some point, and then it stops. And there are plenty of references to a Sexless marriage to having a roommate. 

I have to say sex is not everything. But marriage with no sex (in a situation which at least one party wants it) means some one will be unhappy, unfulfilling, unsatisfied. And if there isn’t a solution to this, no communication, no compromise, then it sure will lead to an unhappy marriage. And seems like sex itself is usually not the problem. It’s an end. The means is usually something else, some other problem in the marriage that lead to “no sex”.

I am in the camp of “sexless marriage but no plan to leave (yet)”. I am doing it for the kids. I want to keep the family intact, at least for as long as I could. I will keep my option open when the kids are done with their college and be on their own. Of course, by that time “sex” probably won’t be high priority at that age. LOL


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

DLC said:


> To OP, the problem is not “sex or not”. It’s the mismatch in expectation and desire.
> 
> it’s cool to have a sexless marriage if both parties wants no sex. I don’t see a problem with that.
> 
> ...


I agree. Someone will be unhappy but as long as its not you, who cares?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Actors often being exploited is, in some circumstances, certainly true. But it is not universal, and it is not all that hard if one is so inclined to avoid that kind of content. This is simply not the black and white issue that you would like it to be.


Hate to break the news to a lot of the anti porn people that use that reasoning(exploitation)....The world is chock full of people going to work each and every single day doing things that no one else would dream doing, but for whatever reason have to do it....Take a look at the guys hanging off the back of the garbage truck in the sweltering heat and frigid cold...Or a myriad of other professions that break your body to **** in no time flat...Its just a plain fact...People exploit themselves....Sad, but true....Maybe no one cares because it's men? I dunno....

I don't want to get into the porn debate ..its a t/j anyway..

To be honest, sometimes guys poke a hole in their own lifeboats when it comes to this aspect....They place a high priority on sexually inexperienced women(who may actually have sexual hangups) , because they are always afraid of women with sexual experience or who perhaps had a higher partner count then they are comfortable with.. They figure the less guys she's been around, the better the chance that she wasn't "spoiled" by some guy with a dyck twice their size or skills they wouldn't even know about....Or if she actually likes sex, that means she will be more likely to cheat...All that stuff is garbage...You pick a woman that is inexperienced, repressed, whatever, then be prepared for the consequences.. If she turns out to be a repressed dud that thinks straight missionary on your birthday and New Years Eve is doing her best, then live with it, or leave... Dont whine about it...You picked her...

But again...If you are a woman and don't particularly care for sex outside of the duty of procreation, don't think you will find many guys that will be on the same page...That's why the religious customs of abstaining til marriage is heavily flawed...You gotta run it through the gears a bunch of times to know what you have before you take on the payments....so to speak...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> But again...If you are a woman and don't particularly care for sex outside of the duty of procreation, don't think you will find many guys that will be on the same page...That's why the religious customs of abstaining til marriage is heavily flawed...You gotta run it through the gears a bunch of times to know what you have before you take on the payments....so to speak...


The counter-argument to this (by those who believe it) is that the test drive doesn't guarantee that the car won't break down one day.

To which I have always said - no, but it guarantees that I like driving the car today while it is still on the lot. It is a necessary if insufficient test for any sexual relationship.

Edit: And an absolutely necessary step before taking the keys.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Cletus said:


> The counter-argument to this (by those who believe it) is that the test drive doesn't guarantee that the car won't break down one day.
> 
> To which I have always said - no, but it guarantees that I like driving the car today while it is still on the lot. It is a necessary if insufficient test for any sexual relationship.



Of course....No one can predict the future....

Ive been around a while...There are clues one can pick up.....There are no guarantees, but IME, they seem to usually follow the pattern....


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Your parents and religious leaders were correct: *porn is for lowlifes*.


The Catholic Church.

*Catholic Church Owns Billion-Dollar German Media Firm Selling Porn - International Business Times*

*Revealed: publisher owned by the Catholic Church sells pornography - Independent*


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Personal said:


> The Catholic Church.
> 
> *Catholic Church Owns Billion-Dollar German Media Firm Selling Porn - International Business Times*
> 
> *Revealed: publisher owned by the Catholic Church sells pornography - Independent*


I mean, really. You didn't need those links. You ever see the Sistine Chapel?


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I know I’ve struck a nerve when a porn lover goes on the attack. 😂


I am a man and I do not use porn just because I find it boring.
I also find boring to attribute to porn whatever goes wrong in this our world, includding dental caries.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

snowbum said:


> this isn't the promarriage site I thought it was. Seems like a lot of wife bashing tbh: (too fat, not good looking enough, not willing to have a threesome, not kinky enough.


Are we on the same board?

There are obviously outliers, but the median / most common opinion from posters on this board is not even in the ballpark of what you describe.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I agree. Someone will be unhappy but as long as its not you, who cares?


sounds exactly like my wife. Not the exact wording, but exact what she has been acting … LOL


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Those suggested actions are sort of designed to manipulate in a way, but they are not unhealthy. What is unhealthy is when a wife goes cold to her husband and no longer allows sex, intimacy and emotional support, but she still expects him to do all the other husband duties. Those are the types of scenarios where you see the suggestion to stop paying attention to her, stop doing things for her, etc. That is the 180. Why should one spouse fulfill the needs and desires of the other if they won't make an attempt to reciprocate? The 180 will hopefully send a message to the other spouse that this is a serious situation and if they still refuse to change it starts the process of detaching and ultimately ending the marriage that is broken anyway.


The answer to your part about why should one spouse fulfill the needs and desires of the other if they won't make it intent to reciprocate is because it's not all about the other spouse but it's about your responsibilities to the family household and kids as a whole. You do your share of taking care of the family and household. Unfortunate that the unaffectionate spouse may accidentally get some benefit from that but your responsibility is more to your family than to her at that point and that means doing your part whether you're getting sex or not.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> That’s why Pornhub deleted half their content last year… deleted the stuff the knew they could be held criminally liable for.


Wow! Who knew? You keep up with pornhub news! 

I had no idea about that, and I'm guilty of watching porn once in a while. 

You remind me of a couple of people I know who are gluten intolerant. Everytime they are invited to a party we all have to think about gluten free dishes so they can eat without getting sick. 

The thing is, I'm not gluten intolerant. I usually bring two dishes, one that is gluten free and another that is not. I can enjoy both dishes without any digestive problems. My friends are more than welcome to try my gluten rich dish and the one that is gluten free. It's their choice. It's their body.

Same thing with porn. You are obviously intolerant to porn, but not everyone is like you. Your body, your choice. My body, my choice. 

I'm sorry you are porn intolerant, but we are not the cause of your intolerance. Not every sex problem is because of porn!!!


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> So he can confess his sins


To a porn watching priest, which is cray, cray..


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, he’s catholic. So he can confess his sins, get a get out of jail free pass, then preach to others that they are going to hell. But not him though….he’s forgiven. It’s quite a racket when you think about it.
> 
> He can rob a bank next week, see a priest the week after, the week after that all bank robbers are going to hell (except him).


Pretty much. That is how I learned it growing up. Born and raised catholic. I'll never step in one of their churches again. 

If u had a dollar for every time I was told I was going to hell for any number of sins I committed that day..... well damn, I'd be filthy rich. Quite a powerful tool against a child. And every last educator, priest, nun, etc were 100% positive with their definitive statements just like CD. Porn = cheating. Period. No gray area. Watch it, and off to hell you go!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The answer to your part about why should one spouse fulfill the needs and desires of the other if they won't make it intent to reciprocate is because it's not all about the other spouse but it's about your responsibilities to the family household and kids as a whole. You do your share of taking care of the family and household. Unfortunate that the unaffectionate spouse may accidentally get some benefit from that but your responsibility is more to your family than to her at that point and that means doing your part whether you're getting sex or not.


Absolutely! You never shirk your responsibilities to the kids and family household. As with all marital issues the kids have to be protected as much as possible. 

Also, I wasn't just talking about sex. I actually didn't mention sex, I said needs. That could mean anything. I realize most of the time the 180 is brought up when there is no sex and usually it is a man. More often than not no sex is accompanied by no intimacy at all. I would have no problem with no sex if there were a valid reason such as a medical issue, but there must still be intimacy. My wife an engage in non-sexual intimacy way, way more than sexual intimacy. I don't desire to live without the sex component, but I couldn't live without all the other non-sexual intimate components. If the source of no sex is a loss of attraction odds are the other intimacy is gone too.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Absolutely! You never shirk your responsibilities to the kids and family household. As with all marital issues the kids have to be protected as much as possible.
> 
> Also, I wasn't just talking about sex. I actually didn't mention sex, I said needs. That could mean anything. I realize most of the time the 180 is brought up when there is no sex and usually it is a man. More often than not no sex is accompanied by no intimacy at all. I would have no problem with no sex if there were a valid reason such as a medical issue, but there must still be intimacy. My wife an engage in non-sexual intimacy way, way more than sexual intimacy. I don't desire to live without the sex component, but I couldn't live without all the other non-sexual intimate components. If the source of no sex is a loss of attraction odds are the other intimacy is gone too.


Again thought this dynamic reads vrry one sided. If she is also contributing in some manner to the household then the man can't use his husbandly duties as a bargaining chip ro get his "needs" met. The only way that would make any sense is if you were a Hugh Hefner wanna be that had maids, cooks, and nannies and the wife was nothing more than a trophy wife


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Absolutely! You never shirk your responsibilities to the kids and family household. As with all marital issues the kids have to be protected as much as possible.
> 
> Also, I wasn't just talking about sex. I actually didn't mention sex, I said needs. That could mean anything. I realize most of the time the 180 is brought up when there is no sex and usually it is a man. More often than not no sex is accompanied by no intimacy at all. I would have no problem with no sex if there were a valid reason such as a medical issue, but there must still be intimacy. My wife an engage in non-sexual intimacy way, way more than sexual intimacy. I don't desire to live without the sex component, but I couldn't live without all the other non-sexual intimate components. If the source of no sex is a loss of attraction odds are the other intimacy is gone too.


I agree, but you have to realize that the reason that happens is because any expression of affection is then quickly jumped on by the hopeful partner who has been wanting sex and is interpreted as a sexual invitation, so it becomes very awkward and confusing and that's why people just avoid the whole thing once it's reached that point. A common complaint of women is that they can't even cuddle up on the couch in front of the TV with their man without their man always trying to initiate sex, when all they want to do is relax and cuddle and watch TV. That's been going on as long as I've been alive. It's just one more side effect of men most generally wanting sex more frequently than most women do, and it also happens early in the relationship when sex is frequent, not just after things have slowed down. It's very frustrating to young women that the men don't seem to have interest in anything except sex and don't seem genuinely affectionate because they escalate everything to sex. It has always caused problems.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Again thought this dynamic reads vrry one sided. If she is also contributing in some manner to the household then the man can't use his husbandly duties as a bargaining chip ro get his "needs" met. The only way that would make any sense is if you were a Hugh Hefner wanna be that had maids, cooks, and nannies and the wife was nothing more than a trophy wife


It seems one-sided because it is. It really depends on the overall view of marriage. When the whole marriage is designed to benefit the man, the woman’s feelings or needs don’t matter. A lack of sex is usually a symptom of another problem, and when a woman tries to communicate that she needs something and is met with “I’m the man, give me what I want and I’ll consider maybe listening to you,” especially if she tries that and learns it’s not true, she will shut down. That’s of course not always the case, sometimes the man tries and tries and the woman doesn’t want to fix it. In any scenario, when only one partner matters, the other one is going to be unhappy.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Again thought this dynamic reads vrry one sided. If she is also contributing in some manner to the household then the man can't use his husbandly duties as a bargaining chip ro get his "needs" met. The only way that would make any sense is if you were a Hugh Hefner wanna be that had maids, cooks, and nannies and the wife was nothing more than a trophy wife


Honestly, he can't anyway. She didn't marry to be a sex slave. The woman bears the children. I'd think that would be enough to offset any imbalance in contributions the man thought he had -- and it always shocks me on this forum that some men think sex is in the same category as paying the rent and picking up the socks and therefore fair trade. Sex is personal and involves emotions, and sex is repugnant and abusive when it's not wanted. It's not in the same category as chores! He didn't buy her -- unless she's a genuine childless golddigger who doesn't contribute financially, but if so, he knew he was buying, which is just another type of sex worker -- and so did she. Then that's different. But you both knew what you were doing if that was the case, and that is hardly ever the case. Women, even wives, aren't chattel or concubines. If the relationship sours, that's on both of you. If it's a physical problem, such as aging, that's a no-fault situation and it's abusive to force things. 

Here is an honest article on the subject of coerced sex involving mothers. 





Stop Making Married Moms Feel Bad About Not Having Sex | Ravishly


While we know adjusting to a new baby can profoundly impact a couple’s life (including sexual intimacy), we, as a society, act like it shouldn’t. We act like there’s something wrong with a new mother needing a time out from sex.




ravishly.com


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Honestly, he can't anyway. *She didn't marry to be a sex slav*e. The woman bears the children. I'd think that would be enough to offset any imbalance in contributions the man thought he had -- and it always shocks me on this forum that some men think sex is in the same category as paying the rent and picking up the socks and therefore fair trade. Sex is personal and involves emotions, and sex is repugnant and abusive when it's not wanted. *It's not in the same category as chores*! *He didn't buy her *-- unless she's a genuine childless golddigger who doesn't contribute financially, but if so, he knew he was buying, which is just another type of sex worker -- and so did she. Then that's different. But you both knew what you were doing if that was the case, and that is hardly ever the case. *Women, even wives, aren't chattel or concubines. * If the relationship sours, that's on both of you. If it's a physical problem, such as aging, that's a no-fault situation and it's abusive to force things.


Unfortunately, there is a long history in the world and a great deal of religious dogma that disagrees with your statements. In the church, women are property. They are chattel, and the terms wife and concubine are interchangeable Biblically. Historically, women were bought and sold; arranged marriages, forced marriages, those are forms of sex trafficking. It is only in very recent history, when women have had the ability to support themselves and could choose to marry or not, that people started marrying for love. Prior to that, it was an arrangement where the wife provides housekeeping, breeding services and sexual availability in exchange for food and shelter. So it's not surprising that so many men believe "wifely duties" involve on-demand, unquestioned sexual availability. Society has been telling them that for centuries.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Unfortunately, there is a long history in the world and a great deal of religious dogma that disagrees with your statements. In the church, women are property. They are chattel, and the terms wife and concubine are interchangeable Biblically. Historically, women were bought and sold; arranged marriages, forced marriages, those are forms of sex trafficking. It is only in very recent history, when women have had the ability to support themselves and could choose to marry or not, that people started marrying for love. Prior to that, it was an arrangement where the wife provides housekeeping, breeding services and sexual availability in exchange for food and shelter. So it's not surprising that so many men believe "wifely duties" involve on-demand, unquestioned sexual availability. Society has been telling them that for centuries.


That was a long time ago in the US. It hasn't been true during my lifetime, and my mom and dad didn't adhere to such notions and they were born in the early 1900s. My grandmother didn't stay with her bad husband either. She didn't divorce, but she moved out and away. 

My other grandmother, by all accounts, had a loving husband and bore 13 children. I will say she never looked or acted happy. But he was supposedly a wonderful man.

It's true that women out in the middle of nowhere, including my mom and most of her sisters, being isolated literally in the middle of nowhere, married the first man with a car to get them out of there and later divorced to go on to a second marriage that had more substance and lasted most of a lifetime. So they were the transitional generation. But it was more due to where they grew up, so isolated with so few options. 

Certainly birth control is the single most important thing to happen to women, the best thing in history to happen to them. But even before birth control, women were starting to work their way out of trapped marriages and were divorcing or trying to get one of the three types of jobs they were allowed to do. You know, that part did happen in my lifetime and was that way when I was in high school, few job options for women, but it changed because birth control and women made it change.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I would add that I think men traditionally searching for virgins often had as much to do with not catching syphillis as it did with adhering to a religious tenant.

I grew up in a religious community, and yet they did not teach that women were chattel or property. That's the perils, though, of adhering to a book written decades ago by all men.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

pastasauce79 said:


> Wow! Who knew? You keep up with pornhub news!
> 
> I had no idea about that, and I'm guilty of watching porn once in a while.
> 
> ...


Except eating gluten free doesn’t hurt anyone.
Real people are hurt by porn. Go read the Pornhub news from last year. Women have been raped, filmed, uploaded to Pornhub- and Pornhub makes the profit. Even when said woman gets content taken down- oops too late- it’s been downloaded thousands of times and now can never be completely removed from the internet. It’s disgusting really. You should take a moment to read some of the horror stories and how the porn industry has profited from it- before coming up with asinine analogies.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Unfortunately, there is a long history in the world and a great deal of religious dogma that disagrees with your statements. In the church, women are property. They are chattel, and the terms wife and concubine are interchangeable Biblically. Historically, women were bought and sold; arranged marriages, forced marriages, those are forms of sex trafficking. It is only in very recent history, when women have had the ability to support themselves and could choose to marry or not, that people started marrying for love. Prior to that, it was an arrangement where the wife provides housekeeping, breeding services and sexual availability in exchange for food and shelter. So it's not surprising that so many men believe "wifely duties" involve on-demand, unquestioned sexual availability. Society has been telling them that for centuries.


I don't know whats going on down there in Texas, but I can honestly say I don't know one guy who thinks being a wife includes "on-demand unquestioned sexual availability" not one I can think of anyway. I don't believe there is even close to a majority of men who believe this anywhere in the US. Now if you say most men expect that a marriage includes a normal sex life I would agree with that. Then there is always going to be issues in some marriages that involve the definition of normal.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't know whats going on down there in Texas, but I can honestly say I don't know one guy who thinks being a wife includes "on-demand unquestioned sexual availability" not one I can think of anyway. I don't believe there is even close to a majority of men who believe this anywhere in the US. Now if you say most men expect that a marriage includes *a normal sex life* I would agree with that. Then there is always going to be issues in some marriages that involve the definition of normal.


It's all about semantics, isn't it?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Personal said:


> The Catholic Church.
> 
> *Catholic Church Owns Billion-Dollar German Media Firm Selling Porn - International Business Times*
> 
> *Revealed: publisher owned by the Catholic Church sells pornography - Independent*


You’re good for two types of posts: lengthy sex brag posts and attacks on the church.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ElOtro said:


> I am a man and I do not use porn just because I find it boring.
> I also find boring to attribute to porn whatever goes wrong in this our world, includding dental caries.


Try spell check or ease up on the medications.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I would add that I think men traditionally searching for virgins often had as much to do with not catching syphillis as it did with adhering to a religious tenant.
> 
> I grew up in a religious community, and yet they did not teach that women were chattel or property. That's the perils, though, of adhering to a book written decades ago by all men.


Except we have a crew right her that demanded virgins or super low body count like 1 other. It had nothing to do with Syphillis and for most of them it doesn't have to do with religion


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That was a long time ago in the US.


I don't think arranged marriages were ever a big thing in the modern US. It's been 100 years since that was considered normal. I mean historical history, like 1600-1800. 😊 


DownByTheRiver said:


> My other grandmother, by all accounts, had a loving husband and bore 13 children. I will say she never looked or acted happy. But he was supposedly a wonderful man.


She would never share her unhappiness with her children. Even when they become adults, it's rare that parents/grandparents share their marital woes with their children. I was over 30 when I found out that my grandmother had confessed to my aunt that my grandfather was unfaithful and she couldn't leave because she didn't have a job or a support system. Some people have supportive families that will get them out of a bad situation if they need help, but what I have experienced is families who say, "No, you married him, it's your duty to stay," especially if the only complaint was infidelity. Boys will be boys and all. 


DownByTheRiver said:


> I grew up in a religious community, and yet they did not teach that women were chattel or property.


I grew up in a religious community that said "she shall submit to him in all things" and "she shall desire him and he shall rule over her."


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Except we have a crew right her that demanded virgins or super low body count like 1 other. It had nothing to do with Syphillis and for most of them it doesn't have to do with religion


Fear.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don't think arranged marriages were ever a big thing in the modern US. It's been 100 years since that was considered normal. I mean historical history, like 1600-1800. 😊
> 
> She would never share her unhappiness with her children. Even when they become adults, it's rare that parents/grandparents share their marital woes with their children. I was over 30 when I found out that my grandmother had confessed to my aunt that my grandfather was unfaithful and she couldn't leave because she didn't have a job or a support system. Some people have supportive families that will get them out of a bad situation if they need help, but what I have experienced is families who say, "No, you married him, it's your duty to stay," especially if the only complaint was infidelity. Boys will be boys and all.
> 
> I grew up in a religious community that said "she shall submit to him in all things" and "she shall desire him and he shall rule over her."


I would have simply quit going to that church. 

My grandmother with 13 kids didn't talk hardly at all or complain, but she never looked happy. She had a hard life out in the country, feeding 13 kids, wringing chicken's necks, stoking the wood stove, carrying water. Then of course as soon as the girls were old enough to be of use, they had to do a lot of the babysitting. They all resent the youngest one because she never had to. Even after grandad died and the farm was sold and grandmother moved to a little house in town paid for by children chipping in, she never looked happy. I'm certain she was just exhausted by life. She also wasn't one of those grandmothers who treasured her grandkids. She only paid attention to one of the dozens, the best I could tell. And I'm sure that one did a lot for her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Except we have a crew right her that demanded virgins or super low body count like 1 other. It had nothing to do with Syphillis and for most of them it doesn't have to do with religion


Yes, but I do think that was one reason that mindset evolved.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I would have simply quit going to that church.
> 
> My grandmother with 13 kids didn't talk hardly at all or complain, but she never looked happy. She had a hard life out in the country, feeding 13 kids, wringing chicken's necks, stoking the wood stove, carrying water. Then of course as soon as the girls were old enough to be of use, they had to do a lot of the babysitting. They all resent the youngest one because she never had to. Even after grandad died and the farm was sold and grandmother moved to a little house in town paid for by children chipping in, she never looked happy. I'm certain she was just exhausted by life. She also wasn't one of those grandmothers who treasured her grandkids. She only paid attention to one of the dozens, the best I could tell. And I'm sure that one did a lot for her.


I did. When the fifth one that I went to said the same thing, I stopped going altogether. There's a whole... thing about it with me. Anyway.

My grandmother never gave a hint that she was unhappy. She only had four kids (her mother had 11) and then had a hysterectomy so she wouldn't have any more. She was really lonely; I recognize it now. She had her kids, but they were children, people need adult friends and when your husband sees you as an employee and not a friend and equal, you don't have anyone to talk to. When I talked to her about Paw's affairs, she said "Never forget the golden rule: the one with the gold makes the rules. The one making the rules is going to make rules that suit themselves. It's fine to love and trust, life is empty without that, but always hope for the best and plan for the worst."


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I did. When the fifth one that I went to said the same thing, I stopped going altogether. There's a whole... thing about it with me. Anyway.
> 
> My grandmother never gave a hint that she was unhappy. She only had four kids (her mother had 11) and then had a hysterectomy so she wouldn't have any more. She was really lonely; I recognize it now. She had her kids, but they were children, people need adult friends and when your husband sees you as an employee and not a friend and equal, you don't have anyone to talk to. When I talked to her about Paw's affairs, she said "Never forget the golden rule: the one with the gold makes the rules. The one making the rules is going to make rules that suit themselves. It's fine to love and trust, life is empty without that, but always hope for the best and plan for the worst."


Your grandmother was smart and lucky she could get a hysterectomy. I wonder if they did it at the time of the last birth. My relatives mostly couldn't afford anything like that. 

I got the feeling that my grandmother was enjoying living all by herself to the point she had to fake smile when some of her many relatives dropped by. I mean, can you imagine going from that to living alone? I remember the daughters were always scheming to get one of the daughters to go live with her. I don't think she wanted that at all. And I don't remember it ever happening. But she seemed to keep it all private.

I didn't like the church that dominated our community, but I didn't attend it, although all non-Catholic friends did. They were hellfire and damnation. They literally told people if they didn't support their particular church, they were going to hell, and of course, now the church is literally an arena, so they made plenty of money off that nonsense.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

She did have it done after her last pregnancy. She had uterine cysts really bad and the doctor said they could just take it out so they did. I grew up in a small, southern Baptist town, and divorce was not accepted. Well, divorced women weren’t, it was fine for a man to marry 2-3 times but the women he divorced were “fallen.” So that coupled with not having a job and my grandmother was trapped.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@Erudite @DownByTheRiver @TexasMom1216

I agree with much of what you are all saying, but I do think you might not be taking into account that the 180 is the nuclear option and a last resort.

@Erudite Prior to the 180 the person executing it better have done all the other less drastic actions to regain intimacy in the marriage. I would only consider the 180 if I've already done everything I can to be the best husband I can, outside of intimate relations. If I am more than pulling my weight in the household, I've made myself as attractive a partner as I can and there is still no intimacy given by my wife, then something drastic is going to need to happen.

@DownByTheRiver Believe me, I'm a man that does want sex often. I am also guilty of sometimes wanting to turn a cuddle into sex. The reason for that is my spouse, like most women, has responsive desire. I am spontaneous desire, meaning it is never far from my thoughts. Although it has become more common recently, my wife has rarely been the one to initiate sex and if I don't it won't happen. My advances usually have a half decent chance of succeeding. I can read if there is no shot whatsoever so don't bother and I know what she responds to, so I've gotten pretty skilled at it. I feel I'm also pretty skilled at reading her and know its time to just get back to the movie and enjoy the cuddling. I think this RD/SD dynamic is common and guys are worried if they don't take the opportunity to take shot they will never get it. Problem is I bet that often their initiating skills are not very smooth and they probably handle rejection poorly. That is why my most frequent advice includes links to a site that has good resources for understanding responsive and spontaneous desire and help with being better at initiation and dealing with rejection. So, is it better to just tell the complaining husband to stop pestering his wife or give him advice on how to do it better?

@TexasMom1216 I agree marriage is a give and take, it isn't all about the man, at least it shouldn't be. I also agree that lack of sex is usually a symptom of something else wrong in the marriage, but those problems aren't always just the husband's fault. 

Here's an analogy that does a pretty good job of describing how I feel about marriage. Marriage is like a cake. The recipe for a good cake has a lot of ingredients. Just like marriage. To me sex is like the sugar in the cake recipe. All the ingredients are very important, but without the sugar the cake really isn't a cake anymore. It is a baked good, but not the same. In the same way a marriage without sex and intimacy is still a relationship of some sort, but it isn't a marriage. The cake without sugar may sustain you in some way, but it doesn't taste very good. You may even need to hold your nose to choke it down. A marriage without sex and intimacy will allow you get by in life, but it won't be nearly as enjoyable and fulfilling.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't know whats going on down there in Texas, but I can honestly say I don't know one guy who thinks being a wife includes "on-demand unquestioned sexual availability" not one I can think of anyway. I don't believe there is even close to a majority of men who believe this anywhere in the US. Now if you say most men expect that a marriage includes a normal sex life I would agree with that. Then there is always going to be issues in some marriages that involve the definition of normal.


Actually, the more I thought about what you posted here, you're contradicting yourself. You said you don't know anyone who wants "sex on demand." But then you clearly include providing sex in her "wifely duties" by saying a man "expects a normal sex life." His definition of normal. So sex whenever he wants it. On demand. So you actually do agree that part of a wife's duties is to provide her husband sex whenever he wants it.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's all about semantics, isn't it?


Careful. Don't fall for the sementics line. Cuz anyone using it will just change the argument around a series of what ifs.

In my marriage I was defeated emotionally, physically, mentally. He told me my weight was unattractive when I caught him watching porn and having online affairs, but if I EVER turned him down for sex I wasn't willing to work on the marriage. The hell? I was literally killing myself to keep my marriage alive. How frikken messed up is that?


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Try spell check or ease up on the medications.


Sorry for my errors using English, it´s not my first language and neither the one spoken where I´m from.
Anyhow I´m quite sure that I was understood even by you.

On medications, my health is good, thank you.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

@BigDaddyNY, I didn't say (or mean to say, in fact I think I specifically said) that the problems aren't always the husband's fault. What I do think is that sex is EXPECTED from women, regardless of the health of the marriage, and several other posters have (unknowingly sometimes) confirmed that men feel sex MUST be provided for them at their pleasure regardless of the other issues in the marriage. 

The 180 is basically depriving the wife of anything and everything you can take away from her and making her life as miserable as possible to manipulate her into having sex. It is in NO way an attempt to discover what is wrong in the marriage and certainly no effort is expected to make things better for the woman. It's about "showing that %@#%$# who's boss." Now, it's impossible to have an honest discussion about it without conceding that women also have been known to use sex as a bargaining chip. But that isn't always the case. The 180 assumes that marriage is a power struggle and the man must "take back the power." He must remove power from the woman, render her powerless, defeat her and take what is his by right. (her body is what he feels he has a right to take) It's not about figuring out what is wrong together. It's Biblical: the man is the only one who matters. 

Saying that marriage is a miserable, intolerable chore without sex tells me what you find valuable about your wife in particular and women in general. It certainly isn't our minds or hearts.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Careful. Don't fall for the sementics line. Cuz anyone using it will just change the argument around a series of what ifs.
> 
> In my marriage I was defeated emotionally, physically, mentally. He told me my weight was unattractive when I caught him watching porn and having online affairs, but if I EVER turned him down for sex I wasn't willing to work on the marriage. The hell? I was literally killing myself to keep my marriage alive. How frikken messed up is that?


I did almost fall for it, I went back and corrected it in a subsequent post. He was playing a semantics game by saying "Men don't expect sex 'on-demand,' they just expect a normal sex life.'" Which of course any fool knows means "He expects sex on demand but saying that makes clarifies that women are nothing more than walking support systems for vaginas."


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Actually, the more I thought about what you posted here, you're contradicting yourself. You said you don't know anyone who wants "sex on demand." But then you clearly include providing sex in her "wifely duties" by saying a man "expects a normal sex life." His definition of normal. So sex whenever he wants it. On demand. So you actually do agree that part of a wife's duties is to provide her husband sex whenever he wants it.


Pardon me?

I don't know any men who include in their definition of a normal sex life "sex on demand".


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I did almost fall for it, I went back and corrected it in a subsequent post. He was playing a semantics game by saying "Men don't expect sex 'on-demand,' they just expect a normal sex life.'" Which of course any fool knows means "He expects sex on demand but saying that makes clarifies that women are nothing more than walking support systems for vaginas."


Stop the gaslighting. This "fool" doesn't think any such thing, nor does ANY man I know.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @BigDaddyNY, I didn't say (or mean to say, in fact I think I specifically said) that the problems aren't always the husband's fault. What I do think is that sex is EXPECTED from women, regardless of the health of the marriage, and several other posters have (unknowingly sometimes) confirmed that men feel sex MUST be provided for them at their pleasure regardless of the other issues in the marriage.
> 
> The 180 is basically depriving the wife of anything and everything you can take away from her and making her life as miserable as possible to manipulate her into having sex. It is in NO way an attempt to discover what is wrong in the marriage and certainly no effort is expected to make things better for the woman. It's about "showing that %@#%$# who's boss." Now, it's impossible to have an honest discussion about it without conceding that women also have been known to use sex as a bargaining chip. But that isn't always the case. The 180 assumes that marriage is a power struggle and the man must "take back the power." He must remove power from the woman, render her powerless, defeat her and take what is his by right. (her body is what he feels he has a right to take) It's not about figuring out what is wrong together. It's Biblical: the man is the only one who matters.
> 
> Saying that marriage is a miserable, intolerable chore without sex tells me what you find valuable about your wife in particular and women in general. It certainly isn't our minds or hearts.


I do believe the 180 is after, only after there's been a problem discussed and one of the parties don't feel the need to fix things. I'm not the 180 specialist but it's the way I see it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Pardon me?
> 
> I don't know any men who include in their definition of a normal sex life "sex on demand".


If you demand a specific level of sexual availability regardless of the wife's feelings, on pain of ending the marriage, then you do in fact believe in sex on demand. You just don't like the clarity of the terminology I used. You prefer to couch it in softer, more pandering terms. It is what it is.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Pardon me?
> 
> I don't know any men who include in their definition of a normal sex life "sex on demand".


Hehehe 😎.

No, not really. But not limited.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If you demand a specific level of sexual availability regardless of the wife's feelings, on pain of ending the marriage, then you do in fact believe in sex on demand. You just don't like the clarity of the terminology I used. You prefer to couch it in softer, more pandering terms. It is what it is.


My W and I still have sex even if we're arguing. We resolved that over 30 years ago.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I do believe the 180 is after, only after there's been a problem discussed and one of the parties don't feel the need to fix things. I'm not the 180 specialist but it's the way I see it.


It could potentially be used that way. I see it thrown around a lot on here as a solution, people are always recommending the book to men who aren't getting the sex they want.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> My W and I still have sex even if we're arguing. We resolved that over 30 years ago.


So you get sex on demand. Her feelings about it are of no consequence. Let me guess, you'll leave if you don't get it whenever you want it?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So you get sex on demand. Her feelings about it are of no consequence.


You've wrongly assumed it's only me that wants to have sex regularly.

Two days ago W told me she'd be naked in bed when I got home from work, so I'd think about it all day. Her exact words. Do you think I should've turned her down?

Btw, it didn't stop us from having sex yesterday too, when I wanted to. And likely tonight.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @Erudite @DownByTheRiver @TexasMom1216
> 
> I agree with much of what you are all saying, but I do think you might not be taking into account that the 180 is the nuclear option and a last resort.
> 
> ...


 Oh, there it is. I knew it was coming. The "perfect partner" argument. I know you are trying to discuss in good faith but I just can't with this. Here is a news flash for guys. It's not all about you! The perfect partner still feels like bargaining for sex. Sure there are things guys do that kill desire in their spouse. But chronic withholding in the face of perfect partner syndrome could be a myriad other things that have nothing to do with you! And honestly perfect partner behavior is as likely to drive a woman away as the opposite. 

Also chronic withholding seems to infer intentional infliction of suffering onto the one wanting more sex. Which is a malicious act.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So you get sex on demand. Her feelings about it are of no consequence. Let me guess, you'll leave if you don't get it whenever you want it?


Also, where in the world do you get the idea I don't care about Ws feelings? How did you make that leap?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You've wrongly assumed it's only me that wants to have sex regularly.
> 
> Two days ago W told me she'd be naked in bed when I got home from work, so I'd think about it all day. Her exact words. Do you think I should've turned her down?


No, I didn't assume that. You said even if you were fighting you still expect sex. You say "resolved it years ago," so you made your position clear.

Of course you shouldn't turn her down, that's adorable and sweet. 

I don't like women who use sex as a weapon. I also don't like MEN who use sex as a weapon. Perhaps I'm not communicating well. I don't think sex should be included in "marital duties" because it shouldn't be a chore. It should be something enjoyable that brings people closer. When I hear men talk about needing it whenever they want it, it's not for emotional bonding, it's for a warm, wet hole. I completely disagree that women are property or objects and including sex in her chores makes it her "work." What is it that we call women whose "work" is sex? It's a profession, an old one. If sex is a transaction between an employer and employee then there is no love or respect in it. I don't know if I'm making any sense, I don't seem to be able to explain. I can't imagine why anyone, man or woman, would want sex to be a chore for the other person unless they really didn't care about that other person at all.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Also, where in the world do you get the idea I don't care about Ws feelings? How did you make that leap?


I'm not saying what I want to say, I'm not able to put the words together correctly. It's about transactional sex, sex being a chore. It's not that you don't care about her feelings at all, it's the idea that sex would be expected regardless of how she felt about it in that moment, and I don't even specifically mean YOU, I mean people in general. It's the idea of making sex a commodity that's traded in marriage. Never mind, I'm not able to communicate what I want to say with any clarity and we're headed down a rabbit hole.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That was a long time ago in the US. It hasn't been true during my lifetime, and my mom and dad didn't adhere to such notions and they were born in the early 1900s. My grandmother didn't stay with her bad husband either. She didn't divorce, but she moved out and away.
> 
> My other grandmother, by all accounts, had a loving husband and bore 13 children. I will say she never looked or acted happy. But he was supposedly a wonderful man.
> 
> ...


Environment does make a big difference. I grew up in a city, a very crappy and poverty stricken city. Everyone had to scrape to get by. My great grandmother is the only woman in my family that I know of that was a permanent homemaker, never having worked outside the home. She immigrated from Italy at 18, so she came from a different environment. All my aunts, grandmothers, my mom and even my female cousins had/have full time jobs and children. Some may have taken time off from work for a short period after childbirth, but they were right back at. My grandmother, who I love dearly God rest her soul, even got her GED then an Associates degree at 60. 

They all could have supported themselves if needed. Yet, except for 2 cousins none divorced and from my perspective were very in love. I even witnessed my grandparents show each other great affection. Just stuff like a touch on the face or a kiss on the head as she walked by my grandfather sitting in his chair. My wife's experience is very similar, having grown up just a few blocks from where I did. She too worked full time before we had kids, took a period of about 10 years as a SAHM until our kids where old enough to not need constant attention, then went back to reestablish her career. 

I know I was influenced by that upbringing. I was conditioned to see marriage as a team effort between two in love people that regularly expressed their love and affection for each other. That is what my expectation of marriage is. My expectation is not to have a sex slave that cleans for me. I really can't believe there is a majority of men out there that think their wife is a sex toy/maid. I would have no tolerance for someone with that attitude.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @Erudite @DownByTheRiver @TexasMom1216
> 
> I agree with much of what you are all saying, but I do think you might not be taking into account that the 180 is the nuclear option and a last resort.
> 
> ...


BigDaddy: "So, is it better to just tell the complaining husband to stop pestering his wife or give him advice on how to do it better? "

My thought is that if a couple dated long enough to get married, they ought to know each other's signals pretty well, like you say you know your wife's. I mean how hard is it to read a facial expression? I think they DO know the answer before they start pestering and just do it anyway. Believe me, if a woman wants sex, she will pester back. _I just don't think most women are silent and unreadable_. 

Overall, I think it's a safe assumption that when someone sits down to watch a show, they intend to finish the show. I think you have a better shot at getting back into a woman's arms by being respectful and not grabby and pushy and letting her relax. I think if you genuinely have such a huge communication problem that your wife won't give you any clue when she might be feeling like having sex, first, you can assume she _doesn't_ want it very bad or she'd act different, and secondly, you need to work out a sign or something or stop asking. Most women know if they go put on something cute for bed, that may be a sign they're amenable. But honestly, why marry someone who can't talk and let you know what they want? I don't really even think that's usually the case. I just think they guys didn't like the answer and keep asking.

I never really had that issue with anyone. Of course, I never married. But I never was even in that position. If I got to where I didn't want to have sex with a guy, I stopped having sex with him or dating him, and might or might not remain friends.

I had a bf once who didn't like to do it in the morning. Once he let me know that, I didn't ever try to tantalize him in the morning again, end of story. I didn't keep pestering him. 

I just think the 180 is used to try to force women to have sex or you'll make their lives hard and abdicate your duties to the household and family. I think that's low. But if there's that much incompatibility, then by all means, sit down and both of you make an exit strategy.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If you demand a specific level of sexual availability regardless of the wife's feelings, on pain of ending the marriage, then you do in fact believe in sex on demand. You just don't like the clarity of the terminology I used. You prefer to couch it in softer, more pandering terms. It is what it is.


YEP, because the husband defines what is normal...i have seen guys want sex 3x per day, daily on this board and cinsider it normal. So yeah, maybe all the men in here are decent men but you don't have to look far on TAM to find men who fall right into what we have been describing.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm not saying what I want to say, I'm not able to put the words together correctly. It's about transactional sex, sex being a chore. It's not that you don't care about her feelings at all, it's the idea that sex would be expected regardless of how she felt about it in that moment, and I don't even specifically mean YOU, I mean people in general. It's the idea of making sex a commodity that's traded in marriage. Never mind, I'm not able to communicate what I want to say with any clarity and we're headed down a rabbit hole.


Don't do that. You are being perfectly clear. I think some people are being willfully obstinant.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't know whats going on down there in Texas, but I can honestly say I don't know one guy who thinks being a wife includes "on-demand unquestioned sexual availability" not one I can think of anyway. I don't believe there is even close to a majority of men who believe this anywhere in the US. Now if you say most men expect that a marriage includes a normal sex life I would agree with that. Then there is always going to be issues in some marriages that involve the definition of normal.


I know my parents' generation, the generation before birth control, didn't think sex lasted forever. Having children past a certain age was unwanted and dangerous, and the words "shut down the baby factory" were heard during those times because the only sure way not to get pregnant was to not do it. Oral wasn't at all mainstream in that generation, so it really wasn't an option. A lot of husbands would have lost respect for their wife if she HAD done it. And then everyone knew what menopause meant and there were no hormone solutions for it. You either still found it something pleasurable and were able to physically do it or you didn't.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm not saying what I want to say, I'm not able to put the words together correctly. It's about transactional sex, sex being a chore. It's not that you don't care about her feelings at all, it's the idea that sex would be expected regardless of how she felt about it in that moment, and I don't even specifically mean YOU, I mean people in general. It's the idea of making sex a commodity that's traded in marriage. Never mind, I'm not able to communicate what I want to say with any clarity and we're headed down a rabbit hole.


You're headed down a rabbit hole I believe you want to go down, apparently. 

If this really blows your mind, perhaps it's a teachable moment.

W and I have a frequent and varied sex life because we want to, and as empty nesters, we can. It goes both ways. You apparently think the W in Ms in general always have to be coerced. 

I'm just flat telling you that's not a valid assumption.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Erudite said:


> Don't do that. You are being perfectly clear. I think some people are being willfully obstinant.


Speak clearly, don't be a wuss.

Offering rw circumstances and broadening other's perspectives?

Call it what you want I guess.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> W and I have a frequent and varied sex life because we want to, and as empty nesters, we can. It goes both ways. You apparently think the W in Ms in general always have to be coerced.
> 
> I'm just flat telling you that's not a valid assumption.


 This is why I think I should stop. Because while that is not at all what I mean, I can certainly see why you have that impression. I also wouldn't blame anyone for being offended by that. It's not what I mean so until I figure out a way to express myself in a way that makes more sense I need to step back.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Speak clearly, don't be a wuss.
> 
> Offering rw circumstances and broadening other's perspectives?
> 
> Call it what you want I guess.


I haven't been called a wuss since grade school. Touched a nerve I guess. 

Moving on, women and men both like sex. Wives tantalize their hubbies and vice versa. Hubbies can and often do read the signs and adjust like good hubs should and vice versa

But when men come on TAM and lay a guilt trip on their wives over outdated thinking what do you expect?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I would say I don’t expect sex on demand but I want to see my wife make an effort to try and meet my demand without me asking because she wants me to be happy and wants a good relationship.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @BigDaddyNY, I didn't say (or mean to say, in fact I think I specifically said) that the problems aren't always the husband's fault. What I do think is that sex is EXPECTED from women, regardless of the health of the marriage, and several other posters have (unknowingly sometimes) confirmed that men feel sex MUST be provided for them at their pleasure regardless of the other issues in the marriage.
> 
> The 180 is basically depriving the wife of anything and everything you can take away from her and making her life as miserable as possible to manipulate her into having sex. It is in NO way an attempt to discover what is wrong in the marriage and certainly no effort is expected to make things better for the woman. It's about "showing that %@#%$# who's boss." Now, it's impossible to have an honest discussion about it without conceding that women also have been known to use sex as a bargaining chip. But that isn't always the case. The 180 assumes that marriage is a power struggle and the man must "take back the power." He must remove power from the woman, render her powerless, defeat her and take what is his by right. (her body is what he feels he has a right to take) It's not about figuring out what is wrong together. It's Biblical: the man is the only one who matters.
> 
> Saying that marriage is a miserable, intolerable chore without sex tells me what you find valuable about your wife in particular and women in general. It certainly isn't our minds or hearts.


I think it would be more accurate that sex is expected by the person with more spontaneous desire. The SD person can be the man or the woman, although it is most often the man. I just don't see anyone saying it must be provided on demand. As you pointed out, what is "normal" sex life is where there is a potential for disagreement. However, most posts on this topic aren't about a difference of one wants 2x a week and the other 4x. It is usually a case that one wants some the other wants none. 

You are right the 180 is not about discovering what is wrong. That should have been done extensively prior to doing the 180. As I said, it is the nuclear option when all else has failed. 

I have never said marriage is a miserable, intolerable chore without sex. Now if it lacked sex and any kind of non-sexual intimacy or love and affection, that would be miserable and intolerable. There will likely come a time in my marriage where sex isn't going to be possible anymore. However, I fully expect that there will be plenty of other forms of intimacy and affection that help me and her fill our emotional tank. If sex AND intimacy disappear I feel like I would be in a living hell.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Erudite said:


> I haven't been called a wuss since grade school. Touched a nerve I guess.
> 
> Moving on, women and men both like sex. Wives tantalize their hubbies and vice versa. Hubbies can and often do read the signs and adjust like good hubs should and vice versa
> 
> But when men come on TAM and lay a guilt trip on their wives over outdated thinking what do you expect?


Expect regarding what? Specifically, what are you calling outdated thinking?


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think it would be more accurate that sex is expected by the person with more spontaneous desire. The SD person can be the man or the woman, although it is most often the man. I just don't see anyone saying it must be provided on demand. As you pointed out, what is "normal" sex life is where there is a potential for disagreement. However, most posts on this topic aren't about a difference of one wants 2x a week and the other 4x. It is usually a case that one wants some the other wants none.
> 
> You are right the 180 is not about discovering what is wrong. That should have been done extensively prior to doing the 180. As I said, it is the nuclear option when all else has failed.
> 
> I have never said marriage is a miserable, intolerable chore without sex. Now if it lacked sex and any kind of non-sexual intimacy or love and affection, that would be miserable and intolerable. There will likely come a time in my marriage where sex isn't going to be possible anymore. However, I fully expect that there will be plenty of other forms of intimacy and affection that help me and her fill our emotional tank. If sex AND intimacy disappear I feel like I would be in a living hell.


But why would it suddenly stop? Sound like you guys have a great marriage! 🙂


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Don't do that. You are being perfectly clear. I think some people are being willfully obstinant.


The issue for discussion is, should sex be part of the "wifely duties," one of her chores. I do not believe it should. I believe that sex should be something married people share because they both want it. It shouldn't be used as a weapon, by the man or the woman. If there is an issue with their sex life, they should try to work on it together, not say that the woman just has to suck it up and do it anyway because it's expected of her. Not only should women not be used that way, but honestly, what kind of man wants to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex? There's a word for that, too.

My words are being interpreted as my saying that women don't like sex and have to be forced to have sex in marriage because men are monsters. That is not what I'm saying. If sex is not enjoyable for the woman, coercion is not the right answer. Denying a man a sexual relationship as part of some power struggle isn't right, either.

If the woman is using sex as a weapon, refusing to have sex until she gets what she wants, she has turned sex into a traded commodity and is prostituting herself. She's not having sex for love, she's having sex to get her way. That's repulsive. She isn't having sex because she loves him. It's a job.

If the man says "3x a day is normal, rain or shine" and demands that or he'll give her the silent treatment, refuse to contribute to the household in any way and shut her out until he gets what he wants, that too has turned sex into a commodity. She has to trade sex for support or peace or kindness; it's now her job.

It's like (boy howdy is this a volatile comparison) vax mandates. "You don't have to get the shot. Without it, you can't work, go to school, go to the store for food, go to restaurants or be admitted to the hospital, but it's not a 'mandate,' you have a choice." Do you? Do you have a choice? Especially if a woman doesn't work and has to depend on a man to pay the bills. He suddenly stops providing money for her children to eat, is she really choosing to have sex with him? No. She really isn't choosing it. It's coerced, even if it's not violent. What decent man wants that? Yikes.

Couples for whom sex is a commodity are going to either be locked in a constant power game or one or the other of them is going to be miserable until they finally get out of the marriage.

So I disagree that sex should be part of the "wifely duties." Women aren't property. No matter what the church says, we are sentient beings with a right to control what happens to us. And if something is really bugging us and that's why we don't want sex, we have an obligation to communicate what that is. If you have to get a therapist involved to help with communication, do that. But don't cut it off without explanation, don't use it as a weapon, don't force it. Sex is fun and for me, comforting. Plus when you have a loving sexual relationship it makes all the other problems easier to deal with because you feel close to your partner.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think it would be more accurate that sex is expected by the person with more spontaneous desire. The SD person can be the man or the woman, although it is most often the man. I just don't see anyone saying it must be provided on demand. As you pointed out, what is "normal" sex life is where there is a potential for disagreement. However, most posts on this topic aren't about a difference of one wants 2x a week and the other 4x. It is usually a case that one wants some the other wants none.
> 
> You are right the 180 is not about discovering what is wrong. That should have been done extensively prior to doing the 180. As I said, it is the nuclear option when all else has failed.
> 
> I have never said marriage is a miserable, intolerable chore without sex. Now if it lacked sex and any kind of non-sexual intimacy or love and affection, that would be miserable and intolerable. There will likely come a time in my marriage where sex isn't going to be possible anymore. However, I fully expect that there will be plenty of other forms of intimacy and affection that help me and her fill our emotional tank. If sex AND intimacy disappear I feel like I would be in a living hell.


Well, as long as you don't press your luck and treat her with respect and affection, you'll still have that left even after desire is on the wane or becomes unpleasant. That's how it should be.

I know an instance where the man is the one who doesn't want to be pestered because he doesn't like "touch" sex. She was HD and he just liked to look at porn and boobs and feet and wasn't a toucher (other than to himself). He concealed that during dating. So I imagine she pestered him quite a lot, just knowing her as I do. They weren't able to relax and be just affectionate and cuddle on the couch watching tv until they both lost their sex drives and were lucky it happened at about the same time. But I mean, if she'd had her eyes wide open, she wouldn't have married him to begin with. Women tend to not see what they don't want to see and think they can fix a man.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, as long as you don't press your luck and treat her with respect and affection, you'll still have that left even after desire is on the wane or becomes unpleasant. That's how it should be.
> 
> I know an instance where the man is the one who doesn't want to be pestered because he doesn't like "touch" sex. She was HD and he just liked to look at porn and boobs and feet and wasn't a toucher (other than to himself). He concealed that during dating. So I imagine she pestered him quite a lot, just knowing her as I do. They weren't able to relax and be just affectionate and cuddle on the couch watching tv until they both lost their sex drives and were lucky it happened at about the same time. But I mean, if she'd had her eyes wide open, she wouldn't have married him to begin with. Women tend to not see what they don't want to see and think they can fix a man.


That is indeed very strange. To me anyway.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If you demand a specific level of sexual availability regardless of the wife's feelings, on pain of ending the marriage, then you do in fact believe in sex on demand. You just don't like the clarity of the terminology I used. You prefer to couch it in softer, more pandering terms. It is what it is.


No, it is not, and you may dispense with putting words in my mouth.

A specific level of sexual availability can mean many things. It can include pre-agreed upon scheduled sex nights. It can mean "I'll ask, you can say no, but please say yes at least once a week". And it should, at all times, include the ability for one partner or the other to say "not tonight".

Edit: Ok, if we are postulating "regardless of the wife's feelings", then maybe I can get behind that definition. I just don't know of any successful marriages where one spouse's feelings about sex are not taken into consideration by the other, nor do I see that routinely advocated here.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Oh, there it is. I knew it was coming. The "perfect partner" argument. I know you are trying to discuss in good faith but I just can't with this. Here is a news flash for guys. It's not all about you! The perfect partner still feels like bargaining for sex. Sure there are things guys do that kill desire in their spouse. But chronic withholding in the face of perfect partner syndrome could be a myriad other things that have nothing to do with you! And honestly perfect partner behavior is as likely to drive a woman away as the opposite.
> 
> Also chronic withholding seems to infer intentional infliction of suffering onto the one wanting more sex. Which is a malicious act.


You don't be a perfect partner to try and get sex. You try to be the perfect partner because you should. And if you aren't getting sex being that "perfect partner" is really supposed be about cleaning up your act, if it isn't already where it should be. It is about removing potential roadblocks. 

You are right, that if you try to be the perfect partner for the sole purpose of getting sex is transactional. I actually see that frowned upon by most men here and I agree. You shouldn't have to do a task to earn sex. That is not how a romantic relationship should work. 

Let me ask this. If a spouse is chronically withholding sex and their partner partner wants sex but can't do anything to make that happen, what do you suggest they do?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Edit: Ok, if we are postulating "regardless of the wife's feelings", then maybe I can get behind that definition. I just don't know of any successful marriages where one spouse's feelings about sex are not taken into consideration by the other, nor do I see that routinely advocated here.


It's in the context of a larger discussion about what constitutes "wifely duties." I went off the path for a few posts before I got it together and tried to explain what I really meant.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Cletus said:


> No, it is not, and you may dispense with putting words in my mouth.
> 
> A specific level of sexual availability can mean many things. It can include pre-agreed upon scheduled sex nights. It can mean "I'll ask, you can say no, but please say yes at least once a week". And it should, at all times, include the ability for one partner or the other to say "not tonight".
> 
> Edit: Ok, if we are postulating "regardless of the wife's feelings", then maybe I can get behind that definition. I just don't know of any successful marriages where one spouse's feelings about sex are not taken into consideration by the other, nor do I see that routinely advocated here.


It is routinely advocated in this very thread! I mean the tone of this post is, pardon me for saying so, whiny. You may think you are trying to be fair and accepting but it clearly comes across as you feeling like you are being forced to lower your standards. The tricky thing about marriage is that we develop unspoken routines, read body language, etc etc. Some marriages actually do what you propose with out even thinking about it. Many wives are well aware when they have been neglecting the bedroom and try to right the ship before husband feels the need to assert himself. If a woman finds herself missing sex her husband probably is too. Just like a good husband can see that his wife is overwhelmed and takes steps to help her without being asked.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Let me ask this. If a spouse is chronically withholding sex and their partner partner wants sex but can't do anything to make that happen, what do you suggest they do?


Can I try? The problem isn't sex. There's something else. If something is bugging her, she needs to come clean what it is so they can fix it. (I'm assuming gender roles here _gasp_  but it works either way). I would suggest marriage counselling, myself.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You don't be a perfect partner to try and get sex. You try to be the perfect partner because you should. And if you aren't getting sex being that "perfect partner" is really supposed be about cleaning up your act, if it isn't already where it should be. It is about removing potential roadblocks.
> 
> You are right, that if you try to be the perfect partner for the sole purpose of getting sex is transactional. I actually see that frowned upon by most men here and I agree. You shouldn't have to do a task to earn sex. That is not how a romantic relationship should work.
> 
> Let me ask this. If a spouse is chronically withholding sex and their partner partner wants sex but can't do anything to make that happen, what do you suggest they do?


If it's the most important thing to them and their marriage then they get a divorce.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Erudite said:


> It is routinely advocated in this very thread! I mean the tone of this post is, pardon me for saying so, whiny. You may think you are trying to be fair and accepting but it clearly comes across as you feeling like you are being forced to lower your standards.


I am at a complete loss here. You are going to have to explain how I am being whiny or feeling like I am being forced to lower my standards. 

All I'm saying is that requiring a certain level of sexual availability from your spouse can be done in a way which very much takes their feelings into account, and that most people actually do this in practice. Don't most married folk come to compromises, where no one gets exactly what they want, but everyone's needs are considered? Perhaps I desire sex 3 times a week, but agree to 1, on a day of her choosing. If it's a bad week, we don't see each, we're disconnected, we can skip it - as long as "skip it" doesn't become the default.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Many wives are well aware when they have been neglecting the bedroom and try to right the ship before husband feels the need to assert himself.


Well my wife certainly is now.

She is having physical problems right now and it’s not her fault; but that said she knows she’s not taking care of business in the sack.

So yesterday she just laid on me and let me hold her and such. She actually said, “In this condition I am useless to you.” She meant for sex, but it sounded really bad. So I had to be like well you can’t have sex right now (or even oral sadly for me) but the key thing is you care.

Now to be honest if she has persistent physical problems and medical science can’t help I’m not a spring chicken myself. If she came to me and was like well I can’t get wet unless you can bench 400; I’d be well ok I will do more bench and stuff as much as makes sense but that ain’t gonna happen.

Sometimes it ain’t gonna happen and you have to be reasonable. I could go 1-2x a day and that is how much I would naturally have sex. If I had a partner who wanted 3-4x I would try until my junk fell off. For my wife her version of really trying is between 5-6x a week which is perfectly fine and we have no issues at that level.

The trying part is important.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> Well my wife certainly is now.
> 
> She is having physical problems right now and it’s not her fault; but that said she knows she’s not taking care of business in the sack.
> 
> ...


I. Can't. Even. Right now. Can one of the girls help me out here???


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I. Can't. Even. Right now. Can one of the girls help me out here???


There’s history here. He’s fine. By that I mean they have a very healthy relationship and an active sex life. She’s having some trouble now and they’re going to get through it. It’s actually really sweet post if you know the poster.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There’s history here. He’s fine. By that I mean they have a very healthy relationship and an active sex life. She’s having some trouble now and they’re going to get through it. It’s actually really sweet post if you know the poster.


Thank you.

I felt bad for her and very happy she came to me even though she’s not well and I think I acted not like a **** like I would have when I was younger.

FWIW not being a **** really helps.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No, I didn't assume that. You said even if you were fighting you still expect sex. You say "resolved it years ago," so you made your position clear.


That is not what he said. He said when he and his wife argue THEY still have sex. He didn't say that he still expects to have sex. Big difference. To THEM, not him, it would appear that sexual intimacy trumps all, even argument, which is great IMO.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I felt bad for her and very happy she came to me even though she’s not well and I think I acted not like a **** like I would have when I was younger.
> 
> FWIW not being a **** really helps.


Yet when sexless people (men) come here. They aren't usually asked if they have been an asshole are they. The asshole part often time precedes the sexless (though not always)


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Erudite said:


> But why would it suddenly stop? Sound like you guys have a great marriage! 🙂


I expect sex will stop at some point due to physical limitations. Age catches up with us all sooner or later. I agree, we do have a great marriage, thank you!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yet when sexless people (men) come here. They aren't usually asked if they have been an asshole are they. The asshole part often time precedes the sexless (though not always)


I often do ask them if they’re doing something unattractive. Often the people with the worst problems can’t self analyze this and actually don’t care even if they are.

I have at least one recent example on ignore because that person, at least to me, is irritating and is beyond any help from TAM and probably anyone else.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Actually, the more I thought about what you posted here, you're contradicting yourself. You said you don't know anyone who wants "sex on demand." But then you clearly include providing sex in her "wifely duties" by saying a man "expects a normal sex life." His definition of normal. So sex whenever he wants it. On demand. So you actually do agree that part of a wife's duties is to provide her husband sex whenever he wants it.


Stop twisting and reaching, A guy demanding sex "whenever he wants it" is not one any sane person would consider a normal sex life. But good try.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Stop twisting and reaching, A guy demanding sex "whenever he wants it" is not one any sane person would consider a normal sex life. But good try.


And yet plenty have been coached right here on TAM that if wifey isn't up for it almost anytime they want to divorce.

We had a guy that was getting it some insane amount like 5 times or more a week but he didn't think it was enough so yep tell her to step it up or divorce.

You know I could see if it was less than 1/week. I don't believe in nonconsensual sexless marriages but after about 4 times a week I think it's expecting a bit much. And that's coming from someone who has sex more than 4 times a week almost every week


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I know my parents' generation, the generation before birth control, didn't think sex lasted forever. Having children past a certain age was unwanted and dangerous, and the words "shut down the baby factory" were heard during those times because the only sure way not to get pregnant was to not do it. Oral wasn't at all mainstream in that generation, so it really wasn't an option. A lot of husbands would have lost respect for their wife if she HAD done it. And then everyone knew what menopause meant and there were no hormone solutions for it. You either still found it something pleasurable and were able to physically do it or you didn't.


So we should live our lives today based on the way people lived 50 years ago? I guess I need to tell my wife to quit her job and learn to cook lol. In reality the average married couple has sex 1.2 times per week. I don't think thats a huge compromise for a low or no desire partner if they really care about their spouses happiness and the health of the marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> We had a guy that was getting it some insane amount like 5 times or more a week but he didn't think it was enough so yep tell her to step it up or divorce.


How many here made that statement? 

If we're going to make the fringe mainstream, this place is going to look pretty weird in short order.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> How many here made that statement?
> 
> If we're going to make the fringe mainstream, this place is going to look pretty weird in short order.


You know as well as I do that there are opinions all over the map. Unfortunately the one that post over and over and echo off each other represent the site more than others. Cause they are seen more, the thread takes their tone. But you know I'm just replying about what normal is an why the tone sometimes seems different than many of the posters.

you usually put up a good fight that sex isn't always a deal breaker but how many of the threads do you do it in? I've seen you get bullied as well. It's hard if you aren't in the loud group.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Can I try? The problem isn't sex. There's something else. If something is bugging her, she needs to come clean what it is so they can fix it. (I'm assuming gender roles here _gasp_  but it works either way). I would suggest marriage counselling, myself.


I agree, sex is the symptom. Yep, works both ways too. This goes back to communication. We can't read each others minds, so someone better speak-up. 

The 180 thing we keep focusing on IMO is the absolute last resort. I'll stick with gender too. The guy is doing everything he can think of to make a good marriage. He's tried to explain his need for sex and intimacy to his wife. She can't or won't give him an answer. He asks to go to a sex therapist or MC, but she sees nothing wrong with sex once every month or so, why does she need to go to counseling? What are his options? The 180 actually has a very low chance of turning it around. It might happen if the wife just needed a wakeup call to understand how serious the situation is for her husband. The more likely outcome of the 180 is divorce. It is the first step in detaching from the relationship.

Imagine an activity that you absolutely love, other than sex, that you do with your husband. You've been doing it on the regular for years. It has become an integral part of your life and part of who you are, but over time he starts to lose interest and starts turning you down, he would rather stay home, it was just too stressful at work today (and every day). Eventually you just aren't doing it anymore and he wont tell you why, just doesn't want to, too tired. Would you not feel incredibly hurt? He knows you love doing that activity. You know he seemed to love it too. You might even think I'll just find a coworker or friend that really loves this activity too and we'll do it together. You still love your husband and all the other stuff he brings to your relationship, but you need that activity to feel fulfilled. 

You can see where this is leading. Sex is unlike any other activity we engage in. In a monogamous relationship sex can only be with one person. You can a hiking or running buddy, not a new sexual partner. If you can't seek out a different partner than your husband has you prisoner. He won't do your favorite activity. In fact he doesn't even want to talk about it ever again, but you aren't free to find someone else to do it with you. You could do it by yourself, but it isn't nearly as enjoyable. Wouldn't you do most anything to change the situation?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If it's the most important thing to them and their marriage then they get a divorce.


I agree, but why wouldn't you do the 180 first? It will probably end in divorce anyway, but there is a small percentage of the time that the spouse just isn't fully grasping the gravity of the situation and that is enough to make them understand. The divorce papers may do the same.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The issue for discussion is, should sex be part of the "wifely duties," one of her chores. I do not believe it should. I believe that sex should be something married people share because they both want it. It shouldn't be used as a weapon, by the man or the woman. If there is an issue with their sex life, they should try to work on it together, not say that the woman just has to suck it up and do it anyway because it's expected of her. Not only should women not be used that way, but honestly, what kind of man wants to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex? There's a word for that, too.
> 
> My words are being interpreted as my saying that women don't like sex and have to be forced to have sex in marriage because men are monsters. That is not what I'm saying. If sex is not enjoyable for the woman, coercion is not the right answer. Denying a man a sexual relationship as part of some power struggle isn't right, either.
> 
> ...


I think there are many posters here who would agree with your first four paragraphs, as written, and with the genders reversed. Some of those have long endured sexless marriages — 3 vs 5 times a week is almost impossible to imagine as problematic, when months or years are going buy with hardly a touch and with absolute zero sexual intimacy.

I don’t understand some you. (I’ve lost track of exactly who.) Some seem to be emphasizing that subset of situations where the wife wouldn’t have sex on command and the husband feels entitled and commits financial abuse (withholding money for groceries) or otherwise devalues and mistreats his wife who he supposedly loves.

What I mean is, do you not see there are many other situations, many other motives and behaviors partners in life can be struggling to get through, and for those most part be striving to do so lovingly? There are no easy answers and very few that move the partners towards each other.

I agree what is described in those first few paragraphs is tragic and awful. Please don’t bury the rest of us under it by thinking that is the full scope of any discussion here.

The commitments my wife and I made were identical, btw. That’s never been our issue.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> So we should live our lives today based on the way people lived 50 years ago? I guess I need to tell my wife to quit her job and learn to cook lol. In reality the average married couple has sex 1.2 times per week. I don't think thats a huge compromise for a low or no desire partner if they really care about their spouses happiness and the health of the marriage.


If the person doesn't want to have sex, it is repugnant to them, at least at that time. I don't think women should be treated as sex slaves. If she doesn't really mind having sex and it's not unpleasant for her, even though she doesn't really want it, then fine. But that is often not the case. It is demoralizing. 

We've discussed duty sex until we're blue in the face here. No one really likes it, but it's sad there are guys who don't care if the woman likes it or not. And it's sad that there are women who have somehow let themselves become trapped in a marriage they feel they can't leave, usually for money reasons and kid reasons. 

And let's not forget that there are many reasons a woman may be temporarily off sex, physical and emotional reasons, and some guys too. That's no time to be coercive and forcing yourselves on them anyway because you are inconvenienced. I guess it's easy for guys to ok duty sex when they themselves can't even get it up if they're not in the mood, so they don't know what that might feel like to have someone badger them about it until they have to try to do it anyway even though it hurts them physically or emotionally or they're exhausted.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree, but why wouldn't you do the 180 first? It will probably end in divorce anyway, but there is a small percentage of the time that the spouse just isn't fully grasping the gravity of the situation and that is enough to make them understand. The divorce papers may do the same.


Because it's abusive coercive, and manipulative. There isn't one good thing you can say about it morally.

Because a decent person shouldn't even be able to enjoy sex they had to use coercion to get, by way of shirking their own responsibilities.

Why wouldn't they just masturbate instead of acting like such a p****? Then get out of the marriage if sex is the most important thing to them about their family.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because it's abusive coercive, and manipulative. There isn't one good thing you can say about it morally.
> 
> Because a decent person shouldn't even be able to enjoy sex they had to use coercion to get, by way of shirking their own responsibilities.


Im going to be hard-pressed to believe that someone who doesn’t care if his wife wants sex or not as long as she spreads on command would make even the vaguest effort to be a good husband. So the notion that the “180” crowd gives a single F about their wives is laughable on its face. Last resort my butt.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If the person doesn't want to have sex, it is repugnant to them, at least at that time. I don't think women should be treated as sex slaves. If she doesn't really mind having sex and it's not unpleasant for her, even though she doesn't really want it, then fine. But that is often not the case. It is demoralizing.
> 
> We've discussed duty sex until we're blue in the face here. No one really likes it, but it's sad there are guys who don't care if the woman likes it or not. And it's sad that there are women who have somehow let themselves become trapped in a marriage they feel they can't leave, usually for money reasons and kid reasons.
> 
> And let's not forget that there are many reasons a woman may be temporarily off sex, physical and emotional reasons, and some guys too. That's no time to be coercive and forcing yourselves on them anyway because you are inconvenienced. I guess it's easy for guys to ok duty sex when they themselves can't even get it up if they're not in the mood, so they don't know what that might feel like to have someone badger them about it until they have to try to do it anyway even though it hurts them physically or emotionally or they're exhausted.


And that's the other thing that doesn't get talked about enough.

The off sex thing is often temporary, child birth, bad cramps, other medical, menopause, extreme stress or tiredness.
I can't remember how long after childbirth we had sex problems because I got a husband's stitch but at least 3-6 months is my guess. My husband was loving and patient and not *****ing or coercive and we didn't have the 'talk'. But had he done most of the things recommended here and shown such little regard for me the resentment and the association of that resentment with sex would have lasted a lifetime. So I may have even given in since I had a newborn but 15 years later he wouldn't have a clue and I might not either as to why I just didn't want to have sex with him anymore. Sometimes these things are subconscious. 

But what men view as being a good husband often times doesn't line up with what women need. 

Now yes you have to be a good partner as well and plenty of women don't do their share to explain and try to get back to healthy sex life. It's a two way problem that is often times treated only one way.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> *But what men view as being a good husband often times doesn't line up with what women need. *
> 
> Now yes you have to be a good partner as well and plenty of women don't do their share to explain and try to get back to healthy sex life. It's a two way problem that is often times treated only one way.


Here’s a hint: “I pay for your food and this house and all the bills!” Yeah, you just called your wife a prostitute. It’s not as sexy to her as you might think.

“I work all day, and all I ask is to come home to a clean house, silent children and a submissive, attentive wife!” So what she does all day has no value and she is a failure who irritates you, the only person who contributes anything to the house. Yum. Sexy time.

“How can you be tired? You’re home all day! Take a nap!” If I have to explain this one, just do your 180. Hopefully your wife comes on here and we can help her find a divorce lawyer.

I’ve said over and over it’s a 2-way street. If there’s a problem and she shuts down, that’s not fair. I’d go marriage counseling, 180 isn’t to fix problems, it’s to bully them out of sight. Or just divorce. But if there’s a problem and the husband doesn’t care about the problem or thinks his needs come first, then that’s not right either.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yet when sexless people (men) come here. They aren't usually asked if they have been an asshole are they. The asshole part often time precedes the sexless (though not always)


I feel like when I first started posting here, people tried to ascertain and push me to consider what I need to clean up on my side of the street. That included questions about weight.

My suggestion is if someone things an OP is getting a free pass for whatever reason, that they chime in on the OPs thread.

Discussions about inequalities after the fact are not going to help nearly as much, and IMHO greatly affected by every individuals personal experiences and biases.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Isn't the 180 usually advised when the guy is letting the wife and everything else just run all over him? The marriage is usually over. It usually ends up being just the beginning of the guy getting his act together so that he doesn't completely F up the next relationship.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> You know as well as I do that there are opinions all over the map.


Sure, I agree. I don't read every thread, and my memory is hardly perfect, but I haven't seen anyone say that sex five times a week as too little for anyone. The vast majority of the responses to someone saying that would be "wish I had it so good, count your chickens, how do you keep things from falling off", not "you poor sex starved bastard, bail now". 

Maybe it's selection bias on my part, since I have no hope of reading anything close to every thread here. 



> you usually put up a good fight that sex isn't always a deal breaker but how many of the threads do you do it in? I've seen you get bullied as well. It's hard if you aren't in the loud group.


Well, I'm not here to tell anyone that sex shouldn't be a deal breaker for them. It's their life. I get involved when someone has my particular issues or when they claim universal solutions to life's problems - the only reason she's not having sex as much as you want is because you're a pasty-faced simp beta male scratching for crumbs, that kind of crap.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

PieceOfSky said:


> I feel like when I first started posting here, people tried to ascertain and push me to consider what I need to clean up on my side of the street. That included questions about weight.
> 
> My suggestion is if someone things an OP is getting a free pass for whatever reason, that they chime in on the OPs thread.
> 
> Discussions about inequalities after the fact are not going to help nearly as much, and IMHO greatly affected by every individuals personal experiences and biases.


Yes, women are often times asked about weight gain and such.

Truth is all OPs should be asked about their side of the street as it's the only thing they can change. However the advice varies wildly. It's hard when you are new here. Some of the harshest posters are first to the thread and then post like 15 times the number that the OP posts. 

I do think if a poster has fortitude to stick around and answer questions they might get good advice much of the time. But many times we just run of the OP.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes, women are often times asked about weight gain and such.


You seemed to imply earlier (at least by omission) that men are not asked about weight gain. FWIW, I am pointing out that I was, or at least I volunteered info about my weight and was encouraged to do something about it. (I’m a dude.)

Not to harp, but there is a long term well respected poster that mentions occasionally the weight issue for men, and how there was a very long thread where the OP failed to mention his significant weight gain.

I am certain I miss some of the things that others are going on at length about here. I probably only remember the things that resonate with my experience, and especially those that feel bad in the moment.

That is all to say (and this is not at all directed at you), I wish we had fewer threads where people chatted about perceived inequities and unfairness in responses here, and instead folks chimed in with the “missing” advice on concrete threads where OPs are there to talk in specifics.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes, women are often times asked about weight gain and such.


Woman are asked about their weight and men are asked if they're hitting the gym. It's the same question, and I'd say a good one for both sexes.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Al_Bundy said:


> Isn't the 180 usually advised when the guy is letting the wife and everything else just run all over him? The marriage is usually over. It usually ends up being just the beginning of the guy getting his act together so that he doesn't completely F up the next relationship.


At a high level there are a few entry points.

OP was never having a lot of sex and now is mad about it. This one well… sorry. I have no advice for this case other than for the OP to look inward and think about how this happened and figure out how to avoid repeating the mistake.

OP was having a lot of sex and now isn’t. This one can be for so many reasons. Physical on either side, psychological on either side.

OP is happy except for <insert condition here> usually involving a particular sex act. These folks I suspect do not have a great relationship with their partner in the first place and possibly they also selected poorly as in the first case. Sometimes they will make wild claims about how happy they are and they’re trying to convince TAM they’re happy with such and so replacement they found for what their partner will not do.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If the person doesn't want to have sex, it is repugnant to them, at least at that time. I don't think women should be treated as sex slaves. If she doesn't really mind having sex and it's not unpleasant for her, even though she doesn't really want it, then fine. But that is often not the case. It is demoralizing.
> 
> We've discussed duty sex until we're blue in the face here. No one really likes it, but it's sad there are guys who don't care if the woman likes it or not. And it's sad that there are women who have somehow let themselves become trapped in a marriage they feel they can't leave, usually for money reasons and kid reasons.
> 
> And let's not forget that there are many reasons a woman may be temporarily off sex, physical and emotional reasons, and some guys too. That's no time to be coercive and forcing yourselves on them anyway because you are inconvenienced. I guess it's easy for guys to ok duty sex when they themselves can't even get it up if they're not in the mood, so they don't know what that might feel like to have someone badger them about it until they have to try to do it anyway even though it hurts them physically or emotionally or they're exhausted.


I don't think women or men should be sex slaves either and If someone has a medical issue they are dealing with or some kind of mental issue obvious thats a legitimate reason to not be able to have sex and their partner should be understanding and helpful. When you see people discussing divorce do to lack of sex it's rarely if ever that kind of situation. If one spouse stops the sex and is unwilling to work on the issue thats entirely different. So if the guy can't get it up and refuses to see a doctor or try medication or anything I see nothing wrong if his wife decides to divorce him.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't think women or men should be sex slaves either and If someone has a medical issue they are dealing with or some kind of mental issue obvious thats a legitimate reason to not be able to have sex and their partner should be understanding and helpful. When you see people discussing divorce do to lack of sex it's rarely if ever that kind of situation. If one spouse stops the sex and is unwilling to work on the issue thats entirely different. So if the guy can't get it up and refuses to see a doctor or try medication or anything I see nothing wrong if his wife decides to divorce him.


His wife probably wouldn't divorce him because of it like a man would when a woman hits menopause but doesn't want to compensate by giving him BJ's the rest of her life.

It happens because problems arise in marriages over time very frequently and resentment builds and most of all simply because men want sex more often than women. That shouldn't have to be the woman's problem.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> His wife probably wouldn't divorce him because of it like a man would when a woman hits menopause but doesn't want to compensate by giving him BJ's the rest of her life.
> 
> It happens because problems arise in marriages over time very frequently and resentment builds and most of all simply because men want sex more often than women. That shouldn't have to be the woman's problem.


I Don't disagree with some of your sentiment but you seem to have a very man hating vibe here. I the marriage is filled with resentment why stay married? Forget sex being a part of it, If you have big enough unresolved issues that have brought up all this resentment to the point you are in a platonic relationship why be miserable?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> *W and I have a frequent and varied sex life because we want to, and as empty nesters, we can.* It goes both ways. You apparently think the W in Ms in general always have to be coerced.
> 
> I'm just flat telling you that's not a valid assumption.


Same here. A complaining and/or angry M or F posting on TAM doesn't prove a rule. Noone M or F wants an unenthusiastic angry partner for anything, least of all sex.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you can't seek out a different partner than your husband has you prisoner. He won't do your favorite activity. In fact he doesn't even want to talk about it ever again, but you aren't free to find someone else to do it with you. You could do it by yourself, but it isn't nearly as enjoyable. Wouldn't you do most anything to change the situation?


I feel pretty comfortable saying that I wouldn't refuse to pay bills or buy groceries or cook or clean or speak to him or my son to bully him into it, no matter what it was. The 180 isn't a last resort, its abuse. If I suddenly refused to do laundry, cook, clean, talk to my husband or son and had my paycheck sent to a private account because I wanted it four times a week instead of 2, would that make me more attractive? No. The 180 isn't about fixing problems. It isn't about teaching men to be better husbands. It isn't about "wake up calls." That's a semantic game, just like someone saying "sex as often as I want" is somehow different than "sex on demand." It's a threat, it's bullying, it's not designed to make the woman do anything but be miserable and give in. Only the lowest kind of scum hurts a child because they want more sex. And as another poster said, if sex is the most important thing about your family, you should really just leave. Your family deserves better than that. \

If she won't give you sex and you've honestly tried everything, then you've tried everything and it's time to leave. Being an abusive jerk on your way out the door only solidifies that she made the right decision pulling away from you. Anyone who would consider that kind of thing is not someone who has "tried." It's someone who is a selfish, tantrum-throwing, emotionally stunted bully. Which, guess what, isn't very sexy. Just imagine if your wife did it, would that make you love and respect her? Or would it make you think she's a selfish, bratty child who doesn't care about your feelings? Because if you told me your wife was doing a 180 on you, I'd tell you to run away because she's not a loving wife and likely never was. Imagine your daughter comes to you and says her husband is rude and cold to her and won't pitch in with bills or housework or childcare. You ask what's going on and she says, "He's says I'm not giving him enough sex." How would you feel about someone treating your little girl that way? I have a son but in that situation, Buster Brown better hope my husband beats me there. He's bigger and stronger than me, but not near as scary as a mama bear when someone comes for your cub. But if she came to you and said she was having marital issues and sex was the center of it, that her husband was upset but was still being a father and a partner, you'd help her figure out how to talk to him and compromise and get things back to where they need to be and you would understand how he felt. One approach gets you in-law help, the other gets you hiding from a wild-eyed woman running you down in your yard with her SUV. 

I'm certainly not saying that a wife has the right to change the arrangement of the marriage halfway through without an explanation. In any contract, if you want to change the terms, you have to come to the table and renegotiate. If she doesn't want sex any more, she needs to be honest about it and provide options to the man. If she flat out says, no more sex, even Scarlett O'Hara knows that's grounds for divorce. If something is bugging her and she can't get over it, she either needs to come clean on her own or get into counseling to help her. All this assumes she wants to stay married, which maybe she doesn't. If that's the case, then divorce and let the guy get on with his life. If she's not willing to work on the marriage at all, divorce her because she doesn't love you, not because she doesn't have sex. I'm saying there are a lot of options short of "180" to work on a marriage. "180" is not a serious plan to help. It's not meant to help, it's meant to bully.

It's disingenuous to say "marriage is a partnership" if you don't expect both people to have to give a little. You're supposed to be a team and work together to make each other happy. The 180 is a Proverb's wife tactic, and only the man's needs count.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Seems there are some REALLY angry people in this thread. The volume keeps getting louder and louder.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

180 is interesting though because it isn’t a set list, it’s just the opposite of what you’re doing now. I interpret it as the opposite of what you’re trying to do to get sex. 

Paying the bills, going to work, doing chores, all those have to happen anyway. Treating your partner with respect should be a given.

I think resources like the Foreplay podcast while greatly flawed use better terms like sexual pursuer and sexual distancer. Creating distance or pulling away from the distancer can bring them towards you.

A tit for tat or punitive measure like, “You won’t have sex so I won’t A, B, or C.” isn’t likely to work but I think creating some distance and pulling away a bit and stopping pursuit and then doing self-improvement so that if the distancer doesn’t draw closer you’re straightened out is good advice.

I can tell you that if my wife gets involved too much with Facebook, a mobile game, work, etc… and I feel like she isn’t paying attention to me she will notice almost immediately if I make subtle changes to how I act and even how I look. If I dress slightly better she reacts to that. I’ve figured out how to create a small bit of separation and for her it usually draws her to me.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> 180 is interesting though because it isn’t a set list, it’s just the opposite of what you’re doing now. I interpret it as the opposite of what you’re trying to do to get sex.
> 
> Paying the bills, going to work, doing chores, all those have to happen anyway. Treating your partner with respect should be a given.
> 
> ...


Dude, no, please. This breaks my heart. I hate bullies.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Modern women get a raw deal- let’s face it. They work full time, do most of the child care, keep the house running and then are expected to jack up their hormones with birth control pills so they can also be available for sex 24/7. I’d feel used too! Compound that with a sports/porn watching hubby incapable of listening/empathy- certainly a recipe for divorce. Modern men need to step up. Most important- listen and be sensitive to her and never, ever get pushy about sex. Only abusers use coercion, threats, or ultimatums for sex. Marriage (and marital sex) is like a fragile flower- needs a lot of sunlight and water. You can’t just 180 it into health any more than you can you bring it back from the dead.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Around here, it seems folks generally are referring to the 180 as popularized by Michelle Weiner-Davis in her books. It looks nothing like the things posited above.

I’ve lived in a sex-starved marriage for many years. I’ve continued to love my wife, and treated her well. I chose to stay, for reasons I own. It got worse, and it’s getting better. The sexlessness was a side-effect of other problems in the marriage. If I would have left, it would not have been “because of” the sexlessness.

What some seem convinced is a widely recommended approach here to dealing with sex starved marriages doesn’t sound familiar to me, and I’ve been reading here for years.

They’re not talking about the experience I have had, or the experience of many people as I’ve come to know them here.

If you’re not in (or we’re in) a sexless/sex-challenged marriage and trying to understand your own situation and talking about your own situation, and if you are not actively trying to understand a real situation being reported by someone in it and sharing your own personal experiences, then you’re at high risk of projecting your hurts and beliefs about the world onto people in really difficult situations. That’s not helpful, and this place isn’t about you.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Dude, no, please. This breaks my heart. I hate bullies.


Guess we have a different definition of bully. I view it as a subtle reminder.

If my wife feels like playing Candy Crush every night instead of coming to bed I mean yeah I get it. Matching those candies is pretty awesome and she can choose to do it every night if she wants to but she won’t be doing that married to me.

So you don’t have to be an asshole about it, but you can pull away from the situation and let the partner respond to you or not.

It’s up to them. 

My wife believes our sexual relationship is important but we were both lazy enough to screw it up completely for many years. 

After many months of stability we have challenges again, some physical, but also some I worry she is getting complacent. That will not happen again. From my end I am doing everything right and I am going to use every tool in my toolbox to keep this thing going.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

PieceOfSky said:


> You seemed to imply earlier (at least by omission) that men are not asked about weight gain. FWIW, I am pointing out that I was, or at least I volunteered info about my weight and was encouraged to do something about it. (I’m a dude.)
> 
> Not to harp, but there is a long term well respected poster that mentions occasionally the weight issue for men, and how there was a very long thread where the OP failed to mention his significant weight gain.
> 
> ...


Well I looked at your 5 discussions and I didn't see weight in any of them. 

But sure I'll admit that hit the gym which could be lose weight is told to men. But it is usually paired with ignore her, start living your life and do the 180 get ready to live without her.

Very rarely do we see what is killing many relationships which is how people treat each other.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Meh, never mind. This is making me so sad.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I looked at your 5 discussions and I didn't see weight in any of them.
> 
> But sure I'll admit that hit the gym which could be lose weight is told to men. But it is usually paired with ignore her, start living your life and do the 180 get ready to live without her.
> 
> Very rarely do we see what is killing many relationships which is how people treat each other.


It’s there. See PM. And I could go into details, but any possible reason folks here or directly involved posit as “the problem” can easily not be the most important or even a true factor. Indeed there is often more to it and involvement of how partners treat each other. Figuring it takes years sometimes, if they even get that far.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I Don't disagree with some of your sentiment but you seem to have a very man hating vibe here. I the marriage is filled with resentment why stay married? Forget sex being a part of it, If you have big enough unresolved issues that have brought up all this resentment to the point you are in a platonic relationship why be miserable?


I'm sure there are some somewhere, but I just haven't heard of anyone in life or on this forum who has left their husband because of ED or because they got old or ill and couldn't do it anymore. But men talking about leaving their wives for the same issue is one of the main posts you will see on this forum. So if that makes me seem like I have a man-hater vibe, all I can tell you is I didn't create that reality.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> Modern women get a raw deal- let’s face it. They work full time, do most of the child care, keep the house running and then are expected to jack up their hormones with birth control pills so they can also be available for sex 24/7. I’d feel used too! Compound that with a sports/porn watching hubby incapable of listening/empathy- certainly a recipe for divorce. Modern men need to step up. Most important- listen and be sensitive to her and never, ever get pushy about sex. Only abusers use coercion, threats, or ultimatums for sex. Marriage (and marital sex) is like a fragile flower- needs a lot of sunlight and water. You can’t just 180 it into health any more than you can you bring it back from the dead.


So much this. There was a recent thread where a guy literally wanted advice on how to get his wife to get hormone replacement therapy so he could get more sex. For a guy increasing libido can often be attained with a little pill ( which he probably doesn't need, he simply wants). A woman is supposed to submit to artificial hormones to increase hers! And not for nothing the side effects to that can rival menopause or worse! Men can still impregnate well into their 70s for crying out loud. A woman giving birth in her 40s is dangerous so why is it that male biology allows them to procreate longer than women?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I feel pretty comfortable saying that I wouldn't refuse to pay bills or buy groceries or cook or clean or speak to him or my son to bully him into it, no matter what it was. The 180 isn't a last resort, its abuse. If I suddenly refused to do laundry, cook, clean, talk to my husband or son and had my paycheck sent to a private account because I wanted it four times a week instead of 2, would that make me more attractive? No. The 180 isn't about fixing problems. It isn't about teaching men to be better husbands. It isn't about "wake up calls." That's a semantic game, just like someone saying "sex as often as I want" is somehow different than "sex on demand." It's a threat, it's bullying, it's not designed to make the woman do anything but be miserable and give in. Only the lowest kind of scum hurts a child because they want more sex. And as another poster said, if sex is the most important thing about your family, you should really just leave. Your family deserves better than that. \
> 
> If she won't give you sex and you've honestly tried everything, then you've tried everything and it's time to leave. Being an abusive jerk on your way out the door only solidifies that she made the right decision pulling away from you. Anyone who would consider that kind of thing is not someone who has "tried." It's someone who is a selfish, tantrum-throwing, emotionally stunted bully. Which, guess what, isn't very sexy. Just imagine if your wife did it, would that make you love and respect her? Or would it make you think she's a selfish, bratty child who doesn't care about your feelings? Because if you told me your wife was doing a 180 on you, I'd tell you to run away because she's not a loving wife and likely never was. Imagine your daughter comes to you and says her husband is rude and cold to her and won't pitch in with bills or housework or childcare. You ask what's going on and she says, "He's says I'm not giving him enough sex." How would you feel about someone treating your little girl that way? I have a son but in that situation, Buster Brown better hope my husband beats me there. He's bigger and stronger than me, but not near as scary as a mama bear when someone comes for your cub. But if she came to you and said she was having marital issues and sex was the center of it, that her husband was upset but was still being a father and a partner, you'd help her figure out how to talk to him and compromise and get things back to where they need to be and you would understand how he felt. One approach gets you in-law help, the other gets you hiding from a wild-eyed woman running you down in your yard with her SUV.
> 
> ...


You realize the 180 is recommended for women as well. I'm no expert on it. All I know is from what people here have written about, but I have seen it mostly recommended as a way really to prepare for divorce. Sometimes it is recommended to men who are in situation where they have become a doormat and treated like a child. In that case from what I have seen here it is really to get self respect back and it has nothing to do with the kids, you don't alter your relationship or interaction with them in anyway. But again all I know is from the peeps on here.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm sure there are some somewhere, but I just haven't heard of anyone in life or on this forum who has left their husband because of ED or because they got old or ill and couldn't do it anymore. But men talking about leaving their wives for the same issue is one of the main posts you will see on this forum. So if that makes me seem like I have a man-hater vibe, all I can tell you is I didn't create that reality.


This. If a woman leaves a man because he's old and infirm, she's a monster for abandoning him at the end of his life. But if a man leaves his wife for a young woman, it's high fives all around.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This. If a woman leaves a man because he's old and infirm, she's a monster for abandoning him at the end of his life. But if a man leaves his wife for a young woman, it's high fives all around.


So what is it that you are looking to convey or convince us of? Men bad woman good? Maybe not your intent, but what you write seens like a very angry rant.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm sure there are some somewhere, but I just haven't heard of anyone in life or on this forum who has left their husband because of ED or because they got old or ill and couldn't do it anymore. But men talking about leaving their wives for the same issue is one of the main posts you will see on this forum. So if that makes me seem like I have a man-hater vibe, all I can tell you is I didn't create that reality.


We're talking about 2 different scenarios, and I've said this already you must not be reading what I write. Of course if the reasons for the drop in or lack of sex is something like age, medical issues, mental issues etc. it is unreasonable and wrong to expect someone to perform. Where I find fault in the partner not wanting or unable to have sex is when the issue is one that is fixable and that person will do nothing to fix it or even try. At least if they tried and failed their spouse would know they valued them enough to try and fix the problem. If you have an issue in a marriage that is causing the relationship serious problems you should work to fix that problem. If you're unwilling to try you're telling your spouse I don't care about you. 

So I am clear as to where I stand, If my wife now 45 developed some medical issue the left her unable to have sex I would love her just the same.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> So what is it that you are looking to convey or convince us of? Men bad woman good? Maybe not your intent, but what you write seens like a very angry rant.


I'm responding to @DownByTheRiver. This is part of a conversation, taken out of context.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> We're talking about 2 different scenarios, and I've said this already you must not be reading what I write. Of course if the reasons for the drop in or lack of sex is something like age, medical issues, mental issues etc. it is unreasonable and wrong to expect someone to perform. *Where I find fault in the partner not wanting or unable to have sex is when the issue is one that is fixable and that person will do nothing to fix it or even try. At least if they tried and failed their spouse would know they valued them enough to try and fix the problem. If you have an issue in a marriage that is causing the relationship serious problems you should work to fix that problem. If you're unwilling to try you're telling your spouse I don't care about you. *
> 
> So I am clear as to where I stand, If my wife now 45 developed some medical issue the left her unable to have sex I would love her just the same.


I agree with this, several times in several posts on here. I also agree with what you say about the relationship problems. A lack of sex not related to a health problem is usually a symptom of another problem. Both people have to want to fix it, and if they don't want to fix it, whether it's the woman refusing to address it or the man doing the "180" stuff, then divorce is the best option.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This. If a woman leaves a man because he's old and infirm, she's a monster for abandoning him at the end of his life. But if a man leaves his wife for a young woman, it's high fives all around.


No if a man leaves his old an infirm wife for a young woman he's weird and creepy.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

happyhusband0005 said:


> We're talking about 2 different scenarios, and I've said this already you must not be reading what I write. Of course if the reasons for the drop in or lack of sex is something like age, medical issues, mental issues etc. it is unreasonable and wrong to expect someone to perform. Where I find fault in the partner not wanting or unable to have sex is when the issue is one that is fixable and that person will do nothing to fix it or even try. At least if they tried and failed their spouse would know they valued them enough to try and fix the problem. If you have an issue in a marriage that is causing the relationship serious problems you should work to fix that problem. If you're unwilling to try you're telling your spouse I don't care about you.
> 
> So I am clear as to where I stand, If my wife now 45 developed some medical issue the left her unable to have sex I would love her just the same.


What does "fixable" or "trying" even mean? Submit to unwanted medical procedures? Give up her self respect? Ugh.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> We're talking about 2 different scenarios, and I've said this already you must not be reading what I write. Of course if the reasons for the drop in or lack of sex is something like age, medical issues, mental issues etc. it is unreasonable and wrong to expect someone to perform. Where I find fault in the partner not wanting or unable to have sex is when the issue is one that is fixable and that person will do nothing to fix it or even try. At least if they tried and failed their spouse would know they valued them enough to try and fix the problem. If you have an issue in a marriage that is causing the relationship serious problems you should work to fix that problem. If you're unwilling to try you're telling your spouse I don't care about you.
> 
> So I am clear as to where I stand, If my wife now 45 developed some medical issue the left her unable to have sex I would love her just the same.


No I think we're talking about the same thing and I certainly did read your posts more than once. We just disagree that a woman shouldn't have to adjust her sexual frequency to her husband's. That there's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't have as high a sexual frequency and there's no reason she should have to be the one who makes the adjustment. Sure if someone has a little medical problem that's easily fixed they should try to fix it and I think most people do. But a woman who simply isn't wanting to have sex as often as her husband is doesn't have a problem that needs to be fixed. Most women do not want to have sex as frequently as most men do. That doesn't mean they're defective.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

happyhusband0005 said:


> No if a man leaves his old an infirm wife for a young woman he's weird and creepy.


It is weird and creepy yet many men strive for this. Go figure.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No I think we're talking about the same thing and I certainly did read your posts more than once. We just disagree that a woman shouldn't have to adjust her sexual frequency to her husband's. That there's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't have as high a sexual frequency and there's no reason she should have to be the one who makes the adjustment. He has other options.


I'm gonna waffle on this a bit. I think it very much depends on what kind of "frequency" we're talking about here. 

Assuming it's not a medical problem, and any other relationship issues are not causing it, it's just a lack of interest in sex, AND what he's asking isn't something absolutely insane (3x a day, threesomes, etc.): I see no reason why they can't negotiate something. In a good marriage you want to make your partner happy and give them what they need. There is a lot of room here. She can give him ideas about what puts her in the mood. She can agree to give it a go and if she really isn't into it, finish him off and try again another night. (I apologize if that sounds blunt. It sounds blunt to me, but I'm not sure how else to say it) They can work on more foreplay... there's just lots of things they can talk about and do for each other and SO much material and counselling available to help with this very common problem. She should meet him halfway, telling him he's on his own seems harsh and unloving to me. IMHO.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm gonna waffle on this a bit. I think it very much depends on what kind of "frequency" we're talking about here.
> 
> Assuming it's not a medical problem, and any other relationship issues are not causing it, it's just a lack of interest in sex, AND what he's asking isn't something absolutely insane (3x a day, threesomes, etc.): I see no reason why they can't negotiate something. In a good marriage you want to make your partner happy and give them what they need. There is a lot of room here. She can give him ideas about what puts her in the mood. She can agree to give it a go and if she really isn't into it, finish him off and try again another night. (I apologize if that sounds blunt. It sounds blunt to me, but I'm not sure how else to say it) They can work on more foreplay... there's just lots of things they can talk about and do for each other and SO much material and counselling available to help with this very common problem. She should meet him halfway, telling him he's on his own seems harsh and unloving to me. IMHO.


What's wrong with him making the adjustment instead of her? People get themselves off all the time. Having unwanted sex can be repugnant and certainly cause a lot of resentment that someone would use you that way and care more about that than whether it's making you uncomfortable.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What's wrong with him making the adjustment instead of her?


It's a negotiation. They both make adjustments. He wants 5, she wants 1, they compromise on 3 and talk about ways to make it more appealing to her. 

I'm married to a man I really love who happens to look super hot with his salt and pepper beard. So I'm working from the perspective I know: a loving marriage between two people who love and respect each other (most of the time  ). I realize that some men are abusive, we see it all around us, right? They don't care about their wives and want what they want when they want it. If EITHER partner isn't willing to compromise, it's not a healthy relationship. 

The caveats are important too: not medical, not painful for her, she's not working with built up resentment, he's actively interested in making sex enjoyable for her instead of wham-bam nonsense. I'm assuming good will and willing effort on both sides. If that's missing, as we have all said, sex isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Erudite said:


> What does "fixable" or "trying" even mean? Submit to unwanted medical procedures? Give up her self respect? Ugh.


You're making some wild assumptions here Ugh. Who ever said that? That's actually a question I might not have read every post on this thread but I don't think anyone has said a woman should submit to "unwanted" medical procedures or give up her self respect. 

Let's say sex becomes painful for her. Is it crazy to think maybe to talk to the doctor to see if it's is an issue that can be resolved. If it can great if it can't at least you tried. If the fix is too scary or dangerous hey at least you cared enough to try. 

Now if sex is painful and the woman says I don't care to even find out why it's painful I'm just done. Is that not disrespectful to the marriage?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Now if sex is painful and the woman says I don't care to even find out why it's painful I'm just done. Is that not disrespectful to the marriage?


I don't know if I'd go directly to "disrespectful to the marriage," because that makes sex sound like a "wifely duty," and who wants to have sex with someone if it's just another chore on their list? I would say, however, that not wanting to try to fix the problem is selfish and dismissive of his needs, and if she has truly decided she doesn't want to have any more sex, she is changing the terms of the contract and needs to return to the table to renegotiate the terms so that there is compromise amenable to all parties.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What's wrong with him making the adjustment instead of her? People get themselves off all the time. Having unwanted sex can be repugnant and certainly cause a lot of resentment that someone would use you that way and care more about that and whether it's making you uncomfortable.


I guess it depends on circumstances. As far as what is reasonable from him. If they are 40 and she decides she's never having sex again for no reason other than I don't like it anymore, but everything else in the marriage is great (granted that is highly unlikely) sure maybe he just takes care of things himself. But I don't would see the guy as an a hole if he decided he didn't want to stay. I honestly can't say what I would do in that situation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's a negotiation. They both make adjustments. He wants 5, she wants 1, they compromise on 3 and talk about ways to make it more appealing to her.
> 
> I'm married to a man I really love who happens to look super hot with his salt and pepper beard. So I'm working from the perspective I know: a loving marriage between two people who love and respect each other (most of the time  ). I realize that some men are abusive, we see it all around us, right? They don't care about their wives and want what they want when they want it. If EITHER partner isn't willing to compromise, it's not a healthy relationship.
> 
> The caveats are important too: not medical, not painful for her, she's not working with built up resentment, he's actively interested in making sex enjoyable for her instead of wham-bam nonsense. I'm assuming good will and willing effort on both sides. If that's missing, as we have all said, sex isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem.


What if she just doesn't feel like having sex because she's exhausted or she doesn't want to have to get up and clean up afterwards? What if she doesn't feel like having sex because he was a butthead that day but not in a big enough way that she felt she had to bring up the little household squabble over it and was just going to let it go so she's not fighting the small wars but then here he comes wanting sex when she's really not into him right now? I don't see having sex when you are not in the mood for it any way equivalent to having to masturbate if you are that horny and somebody isn't available. The first (compromising to having unwanted sex) is unpleasant and the second (masturbating) is still pleasurable so I don't see it as a fair trade or compromise.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I guess it depends on circumstances. As far as what is reasonable from him. If they are 40 and she decides she's never having sex again for no reason other than I don't like it anymore, but everything else in the marriage is great (granted that is highly unlikely) sure maybe he just takes care of things himself. But I don't would see the guy as an a hole if he decided he didn't want to stay. I honestly can't say what I would do in that situation.


And that's an extreme example. But it's very everyday and commonplace that most women simply don't want or need sex nearly as often as most men do.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don't know if I'd go directly to "disrespectful to the marriage," because that makes sex sound like a "wifely duty," and who wants to have sex with someone if it's just another chore on their list? I would say, however, that not wanting to try to fix the problem is selfish and dismissive of his needs, and if she has truly decided she doesn't want to have any more sex, she is changing the terms of the contract and needs to return to the table to renegotiate the terms so that there is compromise amenable to all parties.


What contract?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What if she just doesn't feel like having sex because she's exhausted or she doesn't want to have to get up and clean up afterwards? What if she doesn't feel like having sex because he was a butthead that day but not in a big enough way that she felt she had to bring up the little household squabble over it and was just going to let it go so she's not fighting the small wars but then here he comes wanting sex when she's really not into him right now? I don't see having sex when you are not in the mood for it any way equivalent to having to masturbate if you are that horny and somebody isn't available. The first (compromising to having unwanted sex) is unpleasant and the second (masturbating) is still pleasurable so I don't see it as a fair trade or compromise.


OK I feel like we're talking about different things.

If someone (either someone) has a rough day or doesn't feel well, then the other person should realize that isn't a rejection. I think when this becomes a problem is when it stops completely and you have a "headache" every single time. Honestly, it's never been an issue for me because my H knows me and if I'm in a mood or don't feel well, he's not interested either because he wants me to enjoy it too. I can't speak for everyone, but* I *am not talking about a woman being forced to have sex when she doesn't want to. What I'm talking about is understanding that sex is part of the relationship, it was part of the agreement from the start, and to cut it off completely without discussion or negotiation is not right. 

I'm not saying the man can say "You promised me three times a week, it's Sunday and we've only done it twice. I don't care that you're sick or tired, spread 'em!" Honestly, if a man says that, leave. (What a penis wrinkle THAT guy is). What I'm saying is that if you're NEVER in the mood, then there's a problem and you need to work on that, because when you got married it wasn't just to have a permanent roommate. I'm saying that if you love your husband, maybe you try to meet him halfway.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because it's abusive coercive, and manipulative. There isn't one good thing you can say about it morally.
> 
> Because a decent person shouldn't even be able to enjoy sex they had to use coercion to get, by way of shirking their own responsibilities.
> 
> Why wouldn't they just masturbate instead of acting like such a p****? Then get out of the marriage if sex is the most important thing to them about their family.


Something I think everyone may have lost sight of is that the 180 isn't a common solution given for a dead bedroom. Isn't it usually for cases on infidelity/divorce and you separate yourself from your spouse? If I have ever given someone advice to 180, I can't really remember if I have, it would have been for infidelity/divorce. Usually something else is discovered when ex is an issue before the 180 would be used in that circumstance. Made it was because a dead bedroom was caused by an affair.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And that's an extreme example. But it's very everyday and commonplace that most women simply don't want or need sex nearly as often as most men do.


Yah thats fine. There are times I want it and my wife doesn't, I'm cool with that. And when my wife wants it and I'm not in the mood I still do it. Actually thats never happened I've never not wanted sex with my wife.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You're making some wild assumptions here Ugh. Who ever said that? That's actually a question I might not have read every post on this thread but I don't think anyone has said a woman should submit to "unwanted" medical procedures or give up her self respect.
> 
> Let's say sex becomes painful for her. Is it crazy to think maybe to talk to the doctor to see if it's is an issue that can be resolved. If it can great if it can't at least you tried. If the fix is too scary or dangerous hey at least you cared enough to try.
> 
> Now if sex is painful and the woman says I don't care to even find out why it's painful I'm just done. Is that not disrespectful to the marriage?


Oh, come on. This makes women sound like a masichist (sp?) Imagine the internal dialogue there. Yep we had a satisfying sex life before but now it's painful and I realize the sex wasn't all that great to begin with. Oh, and I enjoy being in pain and any other side effects this condition I may have, and I hate my husband now and he deserves squat from me. Really????


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What contract?


I'm analogizing marriage to a contract. You agree that you're going to build a life with this person. I take contracts very seriously. When we got back from Italy we were married everywhere but Texas. So we had to go to the judge and get married again to be married in Texas. I made him take "obey" out of the vows because I am neither a child nor a dog, I am a fully functioning adult person and I'm not promising to obey anyone. So I refused to say it. It's just a word? No, it was a promise, a commitment, a contract. My word is my bond. I don't mean it in a demeaning way, I view marriage as an agreement between two people and if you're going to change things, that's fine, but you have to discuss it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> Woman are asked about their weight and men are asked if they're hitting the gym. It's the same question, and I'd say a good one for both sexes.


Yes it is. 

Unfortunately I've seen men post information about their physical appearance as background information and then people, usually women, get on his case because they then accuse him of bragging. 

You can't win, some people are on a witch hunt.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No I think we're talking about the same thing and I certainly did read your posts more than once. We just disagree that a woman shouldn't have to adjust her sexual frequency to her husband's. That there's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't have as high a sexual frequency and there's no reason she should have to be the one who makes the adjustment. Sure if someone has a little medical problem that's easily fixed they should try to fix it and I think most people do. But a woman who simply isn't wanting to have sex as often as her husband is doesn't have a problem that needs to be fixed. Most women do not want to have sex as frequently as most men do. That doesn't mean they're defective.


Yah we probably agree.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I feel pretty comfortable saying that I wouldn't refuse to pay bills or buy groceries or cook or clean or speak to him or my son to bully him into it, no matter what it was. The 180 isn't a last resort, its abuse. If I suddenly refused to do laundry, cook, clean, talk to my husband or son and had my paycheck sent to a private account because I wanted it four times a week instead of 2, would that make me more attractive? No. The 180 isn't about fixing problems. It isn't about teaching men to be better husbands. It isn't about "wake up calls." That's a semantic game, just like someone saying "sex as often as I want" is somehow different than "sex on demand." It's a threat, it's bullying, it's not designed to make the woman do anything but be miserable and give in. Only the lowest kind of scum hurts a child because they want more sex. And as another poster said, if sex is the most important thing about your family, you should really just leave. Your family deserves better than that. \
> 
> If she won't give you sex and you've honestly tried everything, then you've tried everything and it's time to leave. Being an abusive jerk on your way out the door only solidifies that she made the right decision pulling away from you. Anyone who would consider that kind of thing is not someone who has "tried." It's someone who is a selfish, tantrum-throwing, emotionally stunted bully. Which, guess what, isn't very sexy. Just imagine if your wife did it, would that make you love and respect her? Or would it make you think she's a selfish, bratty child who doesn't care about your feelings? Because if you told me your wife was doing a 180 on you, I'd tell you to run away because she's not a loving wife and likely never was. Imagine your daughter comes to you and says her husband is rude and cold to her and won't pitch in with bills or housework or childcare. You ask what's going on and she says, "He's says I'm not giving him enough sex." How would you feel about someone treating your little girl that way? I have a son but in that situation, Buster Brown better hope my husband beats me there. He's bigger and stronger than me, but not near as scary as a mama bear when someone comes for your cub. But if she came to you and said she was having marital issues and sex was the center of it, that her husband was upset but was still being a father and a partner, you'd help her figure out how to talk to him and compromise and get things back to where they need to be and you would understand how he felt. One approach gets you in-law help, the other gets you hiding from a wild-eyed woman running you down in your yard with her SUV.
> 
> ...


I am no expert on the 180, only bits and pieces on here. The scenarios you are giving for when it would be employed are really extreme and I can't say I recall ever seeing what you are describing. Never, ever has someone said do a 180 because you want is 4x a week and she only gives it 2x a week.

The 180 really is a last resort. The marriage is basically over at that point and maybe, just maybe the spouse on the receiving end of it might see what it will be like without their spouse. Then they can decide to work on it in some way not already tried or go their own way. The 180 is almost always for detaching yourself from your spouse for eventual divorce. And never during the 180 to you neglect your kids or stop paying for food and housing. Again, I'm not expert, but I don't think you are accurately representing what a 180 really looks like.

Thank you for recognizing that the wife and husband both have ownership and responsibility to make the marriage work.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Dude, no, please. This breaks my heart. I hate bullies.


I don't understand this response. He is a bully if he dresses nice when he is trying to get the attention of his wife back from social media?

I'm really being sincere, which of his actions make him a bully?


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm analogizing marriage to a contract. You agree that you're going to build a life with this person. I take contracts very seriously. When we got back from Italy we were married everywhere but Texas. So we had to go to the judge and get married again to be married in Texas. I made him take "obey" out of the vows because I am neither a child nor a dog, I am a fully functioning adult person and I'm not promising to obey anyone. So I refused to say it. It's just a word? No, it was a promise, a commitment, a contract. My word is my bond. I don't mean it in a demeaning way, I view marriage as an agreement between two people and if you're going to change things, that's fine, but you have to discuss it.


 Goes both ways, though. Most of the "I am in a sexless marriage" posts are long term marriages where the wife is aging. Which is a natural part of life. I am pretty sure you can't get out of the contract if your wife is old. As if her aging body is some sort of insult to his manhood. Or she is "withholding" for no good reason other than to be mean.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Modern women get a raw deal- let’s face it. They work full time, do most of the child care, keep the house running and then are expected to jack up their hormones with birth control pills so they can also be available for sex 24/7. I’d feel used too! Compound that with a sports/porn watching hubby incapable of listening/empathy- certainly a recipe for divorce. Modern men need to step up. Most important- listen and be sensitive to her and never, ever get pushy about sex. Only abusers use coercion, threats, or ultimatums for sex. Marriage (and marital sex) is like a fragile flower- needs a lot of sunlight and water. You can’t just 180 it into health any more than you can you bring it back from the dead.


Now watching sports is a problem? And why would a woman need BC pills to be available for sex 24/7?

I'm wondering where all this is coming from, are there any men on here who have said they expect a woman to be available for sex 24/7?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What if she just doesn't feel like having sex because she's exhausted or she doesn't want to have to* get up and clean up* afterwards?


I realize we're in the throes of a serious conversation but I would like to circle back to this at some time. Clean up afterwards? I immediately think of the song "Bad Touch" by The Bloodhound Gang (if you want to see two grown adults giggle like middle school girls, play this song for me and my H, it's absurd) and I have to wonder if maybe I'm doing it wrong because there's not a lot of clean up for me after. I might be missing something...


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I don't understand this response. He is a bully if he dresses nice when he is trying to get the attention of his wife back from social media?
> 
> I'm really being sincere, which of his actions make him a bully?


Being manipulative. Using the tactic of pulling away from her if she doesn't give him the response he wanted.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm sure there are some somewhere, but I just haven't heard of anyone in life or on this forum who has left their husband because of ED or because they got old or ill and couldn't do it anymore. But men talking about leaving their wives for the same issue is one of the main posts you will see on this forum. So if that makes me seem like I have a man-hater vibe, all I can tell you is I didn't create that reality.


Again I am being completely sincere in asking this. Can you point me to a thread where lack of sex due to menopause resulted in the advice to leave their wife? I really cannot remember ever seeing that. I would think that kind of advice would get pounced on immediately for the crap behavior it is. How could anyone tell a man to leave his wife because she physically can't have sex any more and together they tried to resolve the problem?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Goes both ways, though. Most of the "I am in a sexless marriage" posts are long term marriages where the wife is aging. Which is a natural part of life. I am pretty sure you can't get out of the contract if your wife is old. As if her aging body is some sort of insult to his manhood. Or she is "withholding" for no good reason other than to be mean.


Well as we discussed many men can and do get out of the contract because their wife is old and are pretty celebrated for it. Regardless, I think a good faith discussion about sex in a marriage cannot be had if both parties aren't interested in working together for shared happiness. I am "aging" and I can tell you that sex doesn't stop because you're old. I'm not in menopause yet, so I can't speak to that. But it sounds as though you think all women stop wanting sex after a certain age. That's not the reality. 

And as I said, it does go both ways. She may be having issues and he has to want to help her resolve them and be patient while she does. But she has to try to resolve them or they need to talk about how their relationship will be affected by the change. I don't think a woman should be forced to have sex, but I also don't think a woman gets to say "no more sex ever" and the man has to just accept it. No one in a marriage should have to just accept a huge change in the parameters of the relationship without a discussion.

Some women do withhold just to be mean. I don't feel like the guys we're currently going back and forth with here right now are the extreme to which you're referring. Those guys leave when a woman turns 40, buy a sports car and date a 22 year old. And as the great poet and philosopher Adam Sandler wrote in one of his great works, "No one wants to see a 50 year old Fonzie."


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> What does "fixable" or "trying" even mean? Submit to unwanted medical procedures? Give up her self respect? Ugh.


Here is the thing, if it’s arduous to have sex with your partner then why are you with that partner?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Erudite said:


> Oh, come on. This makes women sound like a masichist (sp?) Imagine the internal dialogue there. Yep we had a satisfying sex life before but now it's painful and I realize the sex wasn't all that great to begin with. Oh, and I enjoy being in pain and any other side effects this condition I may have, and I hate my husband now and he deserves squat from me. Really????


There have been plenty of posts here (if you take them at face value) where the wife stopped wanting sex and had no interest in discussing it. And you didn't answer my question who ever said they expect a woman to submit to unwanted procedures or give up her self respect?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Being manipulative. Using the tactic of pulling away from her if she doesn't give him the response he wanted.


I guess I saw that as a reasonable action to get a response. We do stuff like that all the time. Isn't batting your eyes an talking sweetly to your husband a kind of manipulation? You've never used your sexuality to get a rise out of him. It see is as very similar.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I guess I saw that as a reasonable action to get a response. We do stuff like that all the time. Isn't batting your eyes an talking sweetly to your husband a kind of manipulation? You've never used your sexuality to get a rise out of him. It see is as very similar.


I suppose when you put it like that, when my H does the wiggle brows at me I know what's up. Is that manipulation? I don't feel like it is. But this:


ccpowerslave said:


> I’ve figured out how to create a small bit of separation and for her it usually draws her to me.


isn't wiggle brows or dressing nice. It's giving her the cold shoulder so she'll grovel. There was a poster on here who would stop the car and make his wife get out and drive away without her if she did something he didn't like, and then when they were both at home he would ignore her until she begged for forgiveness. Another one makes his wife call him "Daddy" and constantly tells her she isn't in charge of anything and do as she's told. I realize I'm sensitive because of my background but all this is demeaning.

What's wrong with just talking to her like she's a reasonable adult? "Hey, put down your phone and come to bed." That's what my H does. That and of course, wiggle brows.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well as we discussed many men can and do get out of the contract because their wife is old and are pretty celebrated for it. Regardless, I think a good faith discussion about sex in a marriage cannot be had if both parties aren't interested in working together for shared happiness. I am "aging" and I can tell you that sex doesn't stop because you're old. I'm not in menopause yet, so I can't speak to that. But it sounds as though you think all women stop wanting sex after a certain age. That's not the reality.
> 
> And as I said, it does go both ways. She may be having issues and he has to want to help her resolve them and be patient while she does. But she has to try to resolve them or they need to talk about how their relationship will be affected by the change. I don't think a woman should be forced to have sex, but I also don't think a woman gets to say "no more sex ever" and the man has to just accept it. No one in a marriage should have to just accept a huge change in the parameters of the relationship without a discussion.
> 
> Some women do withhold just to be mean. I don't feel like the guys we're currently going back and forth with here right now are the extreme to which you're referring. Those guys leave when a woman turns 40, buy a sports car and date a 22 year old. And as the great poet and philosopher Adam Sandler wrote in one of his great works, "No one wants to see a 50 year old Fonzie."


I get what you are saying...to a degree. If a wife is withholding sex maliciously then clearly there are more problems at play than lack of desire. I am in my mid forties and I still like sex. Even when I had every reason to cut my husband off there were plenty of times where my urges got the best of me. As I said earlier most women do not with hold sex. We may not want it as often but we don't just randomly decide to give it up, especially in an otherwise healthy marriage. Why punish ourselves??


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I get what you are saying...to a degree. If a wife is withholding sex maliciously then clearly there are more problems at play than lack of desire. I am in my mid forties and I still like sex. Even when I had every reason to cut my husband off there were plenty of times where my urges got the best of me. As I said earlier most women do not with hold sex. We may not want it as often but we don't just randomly decide to give it up, especially in an otherwise healthy marriage. Why punish ourselves??


It's enjoyable, it brings you closer, and it feels good. Sex should be something shared between a loving couple, not a weapon or a commodity. Using it that way cheapens it. 

As an old crone, lemme warn you: Brace yourself. Something happened to me at like 47-48 and suddenly I was climbing the walls. Like crazy, wild, almost break the bed, Cirque de Soliel kinda stuff. I don't know what happens but man, suddenly, I was hanging from the ceiling fan. It was BANANAS.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> Here is the thing, if it’s arduous to have sex with your partner then why are you with that partner?


If it's too arduous to reign in your libido from time to time why are you with your partner?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> If it's too arduous to reign in your libido from time to time why are you with your partner?


Easy. His wife is ill. I get where you're coming from, but let's be kind please. He is not one of those men trying to "fix" a woman who is struggling alone, so give him a little benefit of the doubt.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> You should take a moment to read some of the horror stories and how the porn industry has profited from it- before coming up with asinine analogies.


You don't know what I've been through or what I've witnessed. 

I've seen plenty of violence. I've been a victim of violence. When you are trapped at somebody else's mercy, or bullets are coming at you out of nowhere, porn worries are the last thing in your mind. Maybe I'm desensitized by now. 

You are the foolish one thinking porn is the biggest problem society has.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's enjoyable, it brings you closer, and it feels good. Sex should be something shared between a loving couple, not a weapon or a commodity. Using it that way cheapens it.
> 
> As an old crone, lemme warn you: Brace yourself. Something happened to me at like 47-48 and suddenly I was climbing the walls. Like crazy, wild, almost break the bed, Cirque de Soliel kinda stuff. I don't know what happens but man, suddenly, I was hanging from the ceiling fan. It was BANANAS.


I can't wait! My next boyfriend better get ready! Lol


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I can't wait!)


It's been 3 years. Still going on. I'm fine with it. Poor H may not be, he doesn't say anything but sometimes I get a little... feral.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Easy. His wife is ill. I get where you're coming from, but let's be kind please. He is not one of those men trying to "fix" a woman who is struggling alone, so give him a little benefit of the doubt.


Well, damn, don't I feel like a B***


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because it's abusive coercive, and manipulative. There isn't one good thing you can say about it morally.
> 
> Because a decent person shouldn't even be able to enjoy sex they had to use coercion to get, by way of shirking their own responsibilities.
> 
> Why wouldn't they just masturbate instead of acting like such a p****? Then get out of the marriage if sex is the most important thing to them about their family.


There is more than one good thing to say about it, but I will stick with just one for this sake of your hyperbolic assertion:

Stop investing in someone unwilling to invest in you. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes, women are often times asked about weight gain and such.
> 
> Truth is all OPs should be asked about their side of the street as it's the only thing they can change. However the advice varies wildly. It's hard when you are new here. Some of the harshest posters are first to the thread and then post like 15 times the number that the OP posts.
> 
> I do think if a poster has fortitude to stick around and answer questions they might get good advice much of the time. But many times we just run of the OP.


About 5 years ago, a poster came to this site complaining about a sexless marriage. 

6 months later he begrudgingly admitted that he had put on over 100 lbs since they tied the knot.

That thread will always stick with me, and for that reason, I normally hold the HD accountable to that, among other things. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Well, damn, don't I feel like a B***


It's ok, you didn't know. That's why I told you, so you wouldn't feel like a B. 😊


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> 180 is interesting though because it isn’t a set list, it’s just the opposite of what you’re doing now. I interpret it as the opposite of what you’re trying to do to get sex.
> 
> Paying the bills, going to work, doing chores, all those have to happen anyway. Treating your partner with respect should be a given.
> 
> ...


'Thermostat' is a much more accurate term.

The 180 is for detachment. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's ok, you didn't know. That's why I told you, so you wouldn't feel like a B. 😊


Honestly when the discussion flies I forget who said what and just reply. 🤪


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> If it's too arduous to reign in your libido from time to time why are you with your partner?


Lol…

I spent a decade spanking it after being repeatedly blown off by her. My only libido I had left was every couple weeks I thought hey it has been a couple weeks and she was like ok I guess and would lay there usually unless she was ovulating. I saw myself in the mirror one day and looked at her and stopped.

So I know a lot about reigning in my libido.

Seeing a bunch of people I know pass away in the last few years and more recently the pandemic got me thinking more about life and whether I was satisfied with the situation above and my answer was no.

So I did and am doing what is necessary to try and keep things rolling.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Honestly when the discussion flies I forget who said what and just reply. 🤪


I sometimes do too. I have to be careful with that, because not all the posters here are operating in good faith and there's a huge MGTOW/anti-woman crowd that is loud and will post really awful stuff to get a rise out of you. Especially after a couple of glasses of wine I have to take careful note of who is saying what so I don't get in trouble.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I suppose when you put it like that, when my H does the wiggle brows at me I know what's up. Is that manipulation? I don't feel like it is. But this:
> 
> isn't wiggle brows or dressing nice. It's giving her the cold shoulder so she'll grovel. There was a poster on here who would stop the car and make his wife get out and drive away without her if she did something he didn't like, and then when they were both at home he would ignore her until she begged for forgiveness. Another one makes his wife call him "Daddy" and constantly tells her she isn't in charge of anything and do as she's told. I realize I'm sensitive because of my background but all this is demeaning.
> 
> What's wrong with just talking to her like she's a reasonable adult? "Hey, put down your phone and come to bed." That's what my H does. That and of course, wiggle brows.


The line between influence and manipulation is a lot like the line between art and porn...fuzzy.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> The line between influence and manipulation is a lot like the line between art and porn...fuzzy.


Disagree. But everyone is different.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> The 180 is for detachment.


I think detachment is actually somewhat right if you’re preparing mentally for the possibility of divorce.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think detachment is actually somewhat right if you’re preparing mentally for the possibility of divorce.


It is. The thermostat is the intermediate step between 'the talk' and the 180. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> Lol…
> 
> I spent a decade spanking it after being repeatedly blown off by her. My only libido I had left was every couple weeks I thought hey it has been a couple weeks and she was like ok I guess and would lay there usually unless she was ovulating. I saw myself in the mirror one day and looked at her and stopped.
> 
> ...


Seriously curious, not trying to be mean I swear, but my question still stands. You have a ton of resentment but presumably you stayed in your relationship. Why is a wife held to different standards?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmn

What in the fudge happened in this thread?

I picked up where I left off around page 7. Things seemed to be going ok......

So anyways, I think...... yeah, naw. 🤣 imma skip outta this one.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmn
> 
> What in the fudge happened in this thread?
> 
> ...


Aw! I like your posts, I'm sad you're not into it.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmn
> 
> What in the fudge happened in this thread?
> 
> ...


Yeah, I gave up on this thread a while back. It got over run.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Aw! I like your posts, I'm sad you're not into it.


I'll say this: 

Clearly, the majority of the posters in this thread have been strongly affected by the topic at hand by their own personal experience. I can see the passion in everyone's posts and I see some trying to understand others perspectives.... and then some don't. 

I would fall into the same category as everyone here. I'm here at TAM because of a very serious problem that happened in my marriage (the discussion topic of this thread) and I was at my wits end and somehow ended up here (Thankfully). I love my wife very much. She loves me. I am a very traditional man and she is stuck in between modern and traditional. We make it work. We've done a lot of work on our marriage over the past 12 months and have made excellent strides at rekindling our love for one another. Our current plan is to start MC soon as my wife is more of an avoidant type of person and I like confrontation. This can cause of communication issues as you can imagine. There are more than a few TAMers (seriously amazing people here) that have helped me communicate with my wife better over the past 6 months. She keeps things close to the chest and it is difficult for her to open up. We believe a 3rd party mediator could help us more. 

That said, I think it is pretty clear that I hold strong convictions. Things happened in my marriage involving sex for many, many years that weren't right for a variety of different reasons that caused a lot of resentment to build up in me. That is my personal problem that I have to deal with. I need to find a way to let it go and not "dump" it on my wife. That is my cross to bear jn my marriage. I have to do better for her. She deserves better. For my wife, she had used up every last ounce of my patience due to some seriously poor treatment of me Over a very long period of time. She knows what she did wrong and she is making up for it. We've come to a good compromise and I think we are getting better. 

The reason it isn't worth it to me to get too involved in this thread is because I can only handle so much from the man haters. All men this. All men that. They don't know me. They don't know the serious pain I've been through. Doesn't matter how well i treat my wife. Doesnt matter if i respect her. Im a man and that equals BAD!!! - much the same as the other strong convictions I've read here. For example, you are not a man hater, texasmom, but I understand how your experience in the southern Baptist church shaped you and your viewpoint of how marriage is setup as an Institution for the man. You explain it well. I can understand your viewpoint. I'm Sorry you had to deal with that. It sounds horrible. Regardless of my upbringing, Ive never seen men treat women that way in marriage in the various places I've lived. There are bad actors in the world and I prefer singling them out. I do not like lumping all men or all women into a group.... and too many of these threads devolve into that. 

OH, and the women haters can get bent as well. I don't care for them. They have nothing of value to offer. I have a few names in mind.... and they aren't jn this thread. 


Lol. So that ended up being longer than I planned. 

Anywho, I hope you all enjoy sex in your marriages. All women and men. 😁


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Seriously curious, not trying to be mean I swear, but my question still stands. You have a ton of resentment but presumably you stayed in your relationship. Why is a wife held to different standards?


I meet my wife’s standards or she has the same options. If at any point she’s not happy with me she could leave.

I stayed in my relationship because I told her what I was missing and she decided to step up and try to do it. She could have told me to pound sand. She could do the same at any time back to me. 

Initially this caused me a lot of mental damage. I don’t like failing at anything including marriage. I think for a couple months I was probably slightly crazy and having mental problems.

I thought a lot and did a lot of introspection about how I changed versus the first 5 or so years we were married. I read almost every book I could on these types of issues and how to fix them, probably around ten different ones. I tried to become a better husband for her.

So the standard I wanted was to feel loved by her in the way that does it for me which is physical touch/intimacy and quality time. When I confronted her frankly both of those sucked and she wasn’t doing them.

On the other hand, I made a lot of strides to try and figure out how to show that I love her in the way that she appreciates, which generally isn’t sex. To be honest she can probably care less about sex.

All of these things took me quite some time to figure out. I realized we were fundamentally broken about two years before I had “the talk” with her because it took me that long to unpack what happened and make the efforts I needed to make to get to that point.

It took a lot of piecing together but once I had done all that work and figured it out it hadn’t moved the needle until I mentally prepared to separate and had that talk with her.

So I’m not sure what the different standards are that you think I have.

She has needs from me and I have needs from her. They’re not the same, they’re both valid and each person should be providing the other with what they need to be happy because they want their partner to be happy and stay in the marriage.

I’m positive if you asked my wife if she’s happier now with our marriage than a couple years ago she would say absolutely yes. Unfortunately we’re somewhat of the same people as we were in the past when things degenerated into garbage. So it requires constant maintenance.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> She has needs from me and I have needs from her. They’re not the same, they’re both valid and each person should be providing the other with what they need to be happy because they want their partner to be happy and stay in the marriage.


This is so important. Both people have to matter, and if you want a really great marriage, both of you put the other first. It works that way, I promise. The rule should be to treat your spouse the way you want to be treated. If both people do that, and put each other first, those are the marriages that succeed.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> You’re good for two types of posts: lengthy sex brag posts and attacks on the church.


You are good for only one type of post ..... just like a good Catholic porn addict.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If you demand a specific level of sexual availability regardless of the wife's feelings, on pain of ending the marriage, then you do in fact believe in sex on demand. You just don't like the clarity of the terminology I used. You prefer to couch it in softer, more pandering terms. It is what it is.


If you knew the life of Cletus better you would understand how wrong that statement is. He is definitely a patient dude when it comes to his wife and sex


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is so important. Both people have to matter, and if you want a really great marriage, both of you put the other first. It works that way, I promise. The rule should be to treat your spouse the way you want to be treated. If both people do that, and put each other first, those are the marriages that succeed.


I don't think anyone here would argue with this, to be frank. I am not even going to deny that my own experiences color my thinking. That being said it boggles my mind the faulty thinking that pervades certain posts. Even with posters who desperately want to solve the sex problem in the "right way" and seem like genuinely decent guys seem to buy into the at least one if not more of the classic blame the wife behaviors at least subconciously.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is not what he said. He said when he and his wife argue THEY still have sex. He didn't say that he still expects to have sex. Big difference. To THEM, not him, it would appear that sexual intimacy trumps all, even argument, which is great IMO.


Thanks, and you've stated that very accurately. 

@TexasMom1216 this is a good recap. Because when arguing, and the M is solid, both of us know the argument is temporary but the M is not. Big picture and all that.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> I meet my wife’s standards or she has the same options. If at any point she’s not happy with me she could leave.
> 
> I stayed in my relationship because I told her what I was missing and she decided to step up and try to do it. She could have told me to pound sand. She could do the same at any time back to me.
> 
> ...


The thing that jumps out at me is that you state you did "all that work" and it didn't move the needle. Then you threatened her with separation and finally saw some change. I would question your understanding of the actual problem at hand and posit that the change you finally saw was made from fear. Previous posts of yours seem to imply that many women think sex is arduous and why be married as if sex is some thing that women like to conciously weaponize for no good reason. I mean you worked to take care of every problem she might have had or claimed to have had, right, and still nothing? How can that be? It's stuff like that, as I said way earlier, that gives me pause because you dance dangerously close to the perfect partner syndrome seen all over TAM, imho.

On a general note I do think women sometimes legit don't know why their desire has tanked so consistently. It could be different things on different days. I am sure it must be frustrating for a guy to be told nothing. Or one day she is over whelmed. Or exhausted. Or emotionally spent. Basically seeming all over the place. And when hubby tries to follow her lead on one and "step up" its not good enough and now it seems like she is just making excuses and doesn't care Especially if she seems fine with lack of sex herself.

My SIL and I once were talking about a friend's marital problems and we were discussing her feelings and BIL over heard us and said there's no way our friend could have all those feelings at once Yes, yes she can. And it's exhausting and confusing and she can't sort it out herself so how could she possibly explain it to her husband? Many guys can compartmentalize. They can tackle one issue and feel like the work is done. Now can we get to normal? It doesn't work that way.

If I don't know what the overarching problem is myself I CAN'T communicate. Unfortunately many men read WON'T communicate rather than can't and it sets up this unnecessary conflict which leads to more problems.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Dude, no, please. This breaks my heart. I hate bullies.


ccpowerslave said:
180 is interesting though because it isn’t a set list, it’s just the opposite of what you’re doing now. I interpret it as the opposite of what you’re trying to do to get sex.

Paying the bills, going to work, doing chores, all those have to happen anyway.* Treating your partner with respect should be a given.*

Cc isn't saying he's a bully. Did you miss the bolded part above in his post? Why do you infer he's a bully? Have you read his other posts? All are opposed to being what you're accusing him of.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> I would question your understanding of the actual problem at hand and posit that the change you finally saw was made from fear.


Sure. Fear of losing something she wanted made her decide to maybe come to bed instead of working, watching TV, or messing with her phone. If you try everything you can think of and nothing happens what do you have left?



Erudite said:


> Previous posts of yours seem to imply that many women think sex is arduous and why be married as if sex is some thing that women like to conciously weaponize for no good reason.


I never said women. I said that for a married partner if sex is arduous for that person why are they even married?



Erudite said:


> I mean you worked to take care of every problem she might have had or claimed to have had, right, and still nothing? How can that be?


She never claimed she had any problems. I looked at my own unattractive behaviors and what her needs are and figured them out. 

To this day she still hasn’t looked at a single reference on these topics or even taken a simple 5 minute quiz like the love languages.

She never thinks about sex on her own. She’d what the books would call “responsive desire”. It’s odd because now I’d say she thinks about me and that I will want sex. Sometimes that means she will initiate directly and other times it means she’ll just be around and expect me to initiate. Either way I don’t care. The fact with her is, she maybe only has what I have every day with my spontaneous desire at best a couple days a month.

So from her perspective as a LD there was no issue. Everything was great because she didn’t think about what I wanted ever and it took a threat to get her to pay attention and put down what she was doing. To some extent this is still true, she gets focused in on what she is doing particularly with work. 

It’s almost 3am now and she hasn’t quit working for the day. I’d be pissed except she came to bed with me today and was able to screw and then go back to work.

I’m still not sure she really understands even now, but she is willing to try and make me happy generally and it’s on her mind as something she needs to do.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Even with posters who desperately want to solve the sex problem in the "right way" and seem like genuinely decent guys seem to buy into the at least one if not more of the classic blame the wife behaviors at least subconciously.


Blame the LD is an easy thing to do particularly if they have been repeatedly rejecting the HD for a long period of time. A cursory read of r/deadbedrooms will demonstrate that quite well.

In my case in particular my wife rejected me for a long period of time (years) for a variety of different reasons. Some of them were unattractive behaviors from me, some of them were her having physical problems, some were me not providing what she needed outside the bedroom, and some I think she decided it wasn’t important and she just didn’t feel like it and would rather be doing other things.

The cumulative effect of this over years is that I stopped asking.

So who’s fault is that?

I think it’s both people’s fault and both people’s problem. The thing is, if the LD partner is ok with things then they do not even notice there is a problem.

When I finally confronted my wife about this she agreed we had a problem and at a conceptual or intellectual level she understands that man and wife should have a healthy sexual relationship but I’d say most days she doesn’t feel it in the way that I feel it where it’s a thing that is subconscious and comes from deep inside.

She can wear a pair of jeans that makes her butt look good and I want to have her right then. She rarely if ever has spontaneous desire like that. It’s not bad or good, that’s just how it is. So either you can accept that there are differences between people and understand or you can sit there like a lot of OP on here who come to complain about their SO never initiating.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> But if a man leaves his wife for a young woman, it's high fives all around.


Certainly not all around.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ElOtro said:


> Certainly not all around.





TexasMom1216 said:


> This. If a woman leaves a man because he's old and infirm, she's a monster for abandoning him at the end of his life. But if a man leaves his wife for a young woman, it's high fives all around.


Not approved by decent people. Marriage is supposed to be for life.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

@Erudite, 
I've been trying to understand your point of view in this thread. 

Then I took the time to scan your older threads. 

I am so very sorry for what you had to deal with from your ex. You have been through A LOT. Your ex did NOT hold up his end of the marriage and put you through the ringer. I found myself getting more upset for you the more I read. 

I can say this: if I were in your shoes, I would see things the same way you do and be skeptical of the motivations of men. You are absolutely justified in my opinion. At the same token, I've followed along a lot of the men jn this thread for awhile now and don't think their motivations match what you experie ced with your ex. 

It sucks when we run into bad people in this world and then those bad people can cloud our view of others. Not always of course, but sometimes it is hard to see. I know for myself it is difficult for me to trust the motivations of some of the women here after what my wife has put me through - but I try to always take a step back and realize that everyone is an individual and everyone has different life experiences.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Erudite said:


> I don't think anyone here would argue with this, to be frank. I am not even going to deny that my own experiences color my thinking. That being said it boggles my mind the faulty thinking that pervades certain posts. Even with posters who desperately want to solve the sex problem in the "right way" and seem like genuinely decent guys seem to buy into the at least one if not more of the classic blame the wife behaviors at least subconciously.


I don't think this is limited to men...or sexual problems for that matter. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BTW back to the topic of the thread. 

A new OP today fits a couple of the patterns I listed. Wife never really was sexual but married her anyway; after quite a while she shuts it down completely.

One of the pieces of advice is to literally not do anything for her.

So there you go…

I can see exactly what this thread is about and you’re not wrong in your assessment but there are folks here who do not immediately suggest these things.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Erudite said:


> The thing that jumps out at me is that you state you did "all that work" and it didn't move the needle. Then you threatened her with separation and finally saw some change. I would question your understanding of the actual problem at hand and posit that the change you finally saw was made from fear. Previous posts of yours seem to imply that many women think sex is arduous and why be married as if sex is some thing that women like to conciously weaponize for no good reason. I mean you worked to take care of every problem she might have had or claimed to have had, right, and still nothing? How can that be? It's stuff like that, as I said way earlier, that gives me pause because you dance dangerously close to the perfect partner syndrome seen all over TAM, imho.
> 
> On a general note I do think women sometimes legit don't know why their desire has tanked so consistently. It could be different things on different days. I am sure it must be frustrating for a guy to be told nothing. Or one day she is over whelmed. Or exhausted. Or emotionally spent. Basically seeming all over the place. And when hubby tries to follow her lead on one and "step up" its not good enough and now it seems like she is just making excuses and doesn't care Especially if she seems fine with lack of sex herself.
> 
> ...


It must be frustrating, especially when the LD wants to desire their HD spouse. That poses a unique problem, and one that isn't often seen on this site. 

Where reducing the thermostat becomes necessary is when that has crossed over into the LD shaming or gaslighting the HD for having a sex drive:

"You are a sex addict."

"It is normal to not have sex very often."

"What is wrong with you?"

Or the reluctant duty sex, which I put the brakes on early in our reset:

"Just get it over with", accentuated by a roll of the eyes. 

When I looked at her and told her no thank you, that sex was something I wanted to do with her, not to her, she was aghast. She could not believe I refused her 'offer'.




Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> BTW back to the topic of the thread.
> 
> A new OP today fits a couple of the patterns I listed. Wife never really was sexual but married her anyway; after quite a while she shuts it down completely.
> 
> ...


Which thread? Is it sex only, or does she refuse to even hold his hand, etc.?

If is the latter, when someone you are married to treats you as a friend or even more coldly, there is nothing wrong with _mirroring_ their level of personal involvement and stopping the marital kinds of things you do for them, as well. 

That doesn't mean not pulling your weight with household maintenance and parenting, though.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> "Just get it over with", accentuated by a roll of the eyes.
> 
> When I looked at her and told her no thank you, that sex was something I wanted to do with her, not to her, she was aghast. She could not believe I refused her 'offer'.


I described this type of interaction as being disgusting and repulsive.

I wouldn’t say my wife was shocked or agast but she didn’t understand it because she doesn’t generally look to physical touch to feel connected and the sex act itself has little to no meaning to her.

Fixing this all the way was as difficult as fixing the frequency and took roughly the same amount of time. We’re definitely having better sex now than we ever have in the past as a result of these joint efforts.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Which thread? Is it sex only, or does she refuse to even hold his hand, etc.?


This one:









Cromer’s Twin?


I read through the entire Cromer thread and it seems we have the exact same circumstances, i.e. been married 31 years, faithful church attenders, get along in almost every other area, have great kids, wife sees Church as her social circle, and I have a good career and make decent money and I...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> I described this type of interaction as being disgusting and repulsive.
> 
> I wouldn’t say my wife was shocked or agast but she didn’t understand it because she doesn’t generally look to physical touch to feel connected and the sex act itself has little to no meaning to her.
> 
> Fixing this all the way was as difficult as fixing the frequency and took roughly the same amount of time. We’re definitely having better sex now than we ever have in the past as a result of these joint efforts.


True. 

In my wife's case, what made it even more compelling and ironic (or cynically, hypocritical) was that she hates to be rejected...over anything.

You don't say...

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> I meet my wife’s standards or she has the same options. If at any point she’s not happy with me she could leave.
> 
> I stayed in my relationship because I told her what I was missing and she decided to step up and try to do it. She could have told me to pound sand. She could do the same at any time back to me.
> 
> ...


She never told you what she needed? You just kind of figured it out on your own? It's highly unusual that a husband knows a wife better than she knows herself. It's more interesting that you spent years trying to communicate to her and she prioritized her not needing sex over your need for sex on purpose. You would be the first poster ever, that I have read on TAM, to declare an ultimatum and have it work in the long term. Making agreements due to fear of abandonment doesn't usually last, imho. I speak from experience. It appears to have worked for you, but in that case I would say that you are lucky.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Ah I see it. 

The couple in question isn't a couple, they are friends They are living a friend relationship. She doesn't want to be his romantic partner. But he is still meeting some of her nonsexual "romantic partner type needs" and she isn't doing the same for him regarding meeting nonsexual needs. 

I think he should stop, too. An unbalanced relationship sucks.

I thunk be should get out of the relationship. He's stuck in a platonic friend "marriage" but would like to experience a loving, sexual, marriage relationship.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Erudite said:


> She never told you what she needed? You just kind of figured it out on your own? It's highly unusual that a husband knows a wife better than she knows herself. It's more interesting that you spent years trying to communicate to her and she prioritized her not needing sex over your need for sex on purpose. You would be the first poster ever, that I have read on TAM, to declare an ultimatum and have it work in the long term. Making agreements due to fear of abandonment doesn't usually last, imho. I speak from experience. It appears to have worked for you, but in that case I would say that you are lucky.


Second. 

There are others, too. You have to dig a bit deeper to find them. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> She never told you what she needed? You just kind of figured it out on your own? It's highly unusual that a husband knows a wife better than she knows herself.


Of course she did. I ignored it or didn’t believe it or was caught up in my own world of crap just like she was. It was also not always communicated clearly.

She is not a direct person. I will say exactly what I want in plain language. She will not or sometimes maybe can’t. She was telling me anyway. The same way my ham fisted initiations were an attempt to tell her what I needed. It was not an effective way to communicate that need to her.

As an example she won’t take a 5 minute love languages quiz or read a single book on these topics.

I have lived with her for 25 years and I think her love languages are words of affirmation and quality time. There are events or travel she wants to do and my lack of participation in those was very damaging to our relationship.

As an aside a (woman) friend of ours who is older and has been married much longer recently separated over this exact same deficiency from the husband.



Erudite said:


> You would be the first poster ever, that I have read on TAM, to declare an ultimatum and have it work in the long term.


I think there are a few on here who have done it, a couple on this thread.



Erudite said:


> Making agreements due to fear of abandonment doesn't usually last, imho. I speak from experience.


She had nothing to fear unless she wanted to be with me. I was not willing to live as a friend or a roommate. There was no animosity about it, it was just a statement of fact.

Financially if we separated she would have been completely fine.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> ccpowerslave said:
> 180 is interesting though because it isn’t a set list, it’s just the opposite of what you’re doing now. I interpret it as the opposite of what you’re trying to do to get sex.
> 
> Paying the bills, going to work, doing chores, all those have to happen anyway.* Treating your partner with respect should be a given.*
> ...


Isnt the 180 just same as a pilot is trained if encounters bad weather other issue to take reciprocal course, 180 degrees from present course? Do opposite of what isnt working.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @Erudite,
> I've been trying to understand your point of view in this thread.
> 
> Then I took the time to scan your older threads.
> ...


Within the context of my own marriage, I could see what was clearly happening to women who were my friends and relatives. But I couldn't see it for myself. I think my first post on TAM was well over 6 years ago and I had been dealing with the abuse long prior to even that. I just left my husband this past year.

People will say that my posts are because of what I went through rather than an objective look at individual situations. Maybe when other posters are cray cray that is true. What I will tell you is that my denying of my feelings (which I expressed through/in this thread) is what kept me in that bad situation for so long. I convinced myself that he was right. That I OWED him my body, my money, my time. He regularly threatened me with divorce. He regularly used the phrase "if you loved me you would". I stayed with him out of fear of abandonment and the erosion of my self esteem. Not because I loved him. Although that is what I told myself. At one point, I remember clearly groveling..on my knees...and him standing there saying I don't believe you.

So when I say what I say, I mean it. Because I had a husband who exhibited all these behaviours. I believe he started in a reasonable place, as most men here do actually, but once he found a tactic that worked took it to an extreme. It worked in the short term but look where it got him in the end.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> If you knew the life of Cletus better you would understand how wrong that statement is. He is definitely a patient dude when it comes to his wife and sex


My comment wasn’t an accusation about him personally. It’s part of a larger conversation about expectations, and how using gentle terms for something doesn’t change what it is.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> Of course she did. I ignored it or didn’t believe it or was caught up in my own world of crap just like she was. It was also not always communicated clearly.
> 
> She is not a direct person. I will say exactly what I want in plain language. She will not or sometimes maybe can’t. She was telling me anyway. The same way my ham fisted initiations were an attempt to tell her what I needed. It was not an effective way to communicate that need to her.
> 
> ...


I agree with the love languages and will say they work in theory and on principle. I have advocated for each. But, but, but...physical touch is distinct from sex. Sex means getting real. We are talking about someone's body for crying out loud. As a quid pro qo argument going to the museum to meet someone's love language and getting naked to meet someone's love language is hardly equivalent.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Rus47 said:


> Isnt the 180 just same as a pilot is trained if encounters bad weather other issue to take reciprocal course, 180 degrees from present course? Do opposite of what isnt working.


So you are going through the storm. You do a 180 and head back the way you came. But you'll still be going through the storm on the way back...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> I agree with the love languages and will say they work in theory and on principle. I have advocated for each. But, but, but...physical touch is distinct from sex. Sex means getting real. We are talking about someone's body for crying out loud. As a quid pro qo argument going to the museum to meet someone's love language and getting naked to meet someone's love language is hardly equivalent.


They are equivalent in that they’re both ways that someone feels loved that are important to them.

For me the physical touch I really want is associated with sex. Aside from feeling amazing, it is one thing only we share and her choice to share that with me makes me feel loved. When she does not participate I feel disconnected from her.

If she comes to me and wants to tell me about something she is proud of and I blow her off it’s a rejection of her. It’s not identical but it causes the same damage to the marriage in the long term.

In my last post I cited an example of someone I know IRL (a woman) who is in the process of separating from a marriage longer than mine because her husband will not travel. Oddly, my wife has done trips with her because I wouldn’t travel. Interesting that…

So if a “trip to the museum” is worth a woman filing, maybe that need is a serious one. Maybe even serious enough to be on the same level that a man like myself associates with sex.

So now I go on every trip and make myself available 100% of the time whether I want to go or not, and then I try and figure out a way to enjoy myself without being obnoxious. Each time it has gotten easier and I have gotten better at it and now sometimes I even look forward to it.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Which thread? Is it sex only, or does she refuse to even hold his hand, etc.?
> 
> If is the latter, when someone you are married to treats you as a friend or even more coldly, there is nothing wrong with _mirroring_ their level of personal involvement and stopping the marital kinds of things you do for them, as well.
> 
> That doesn't mean not pulling your weight with household maintenance and parenting, though.


You don't have to look far to see why some women stop holding hands..cuz the husband thinks it will lead to sex. Same with a cuddle or back rub..


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Erudite said:


> So you are going through the storm. You do a 180 and head back the way you came. But you'll still be going through the storm on the way back...


A pilot is trained to use this simple maneuver to return to safety from a dangerous situation. He is headed into a storm and it is getting worse. If he maintsins course he is in mortal danger. He knows not what lies ahead but knows safety is where he cane from. 

That was part ofmy early training


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> They are equivalent in that they’re both ways that someone feels loved that are important to them.
> 
> For me the physical touch I really want is associated with sex. Aside from feeling amazing, it is one thing only we share and her choice to share that with me makes me feel loved. When she does not participate I feel disconnected from her.
> 
> ...


I highly disagree with everything here. Highly.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Rus47 said:


> A pilot is trained to use this simple maneuver to return to safety from a dangerous situation. He is headed into a storm and it is getting worse. If he maintsins course he is in mortal danger. He knows not what lies ahead but knows safety is where he cane from.
> 
> That was part ofmy early training


 
There is safety in the eye of the storm as well. The trick is staying in the eye not being on the outside waiting for another stkrm to come along.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I agree with the love languages and will say they work in theory and on principle. I have advocated for each. But, but, but...physical touch is distinct from sex. Sex means getting real. We are talking about someone's body for crying out loud. As a quid pro qo argument going to the museum to meet someone's love language and getting naked to meet someone's love language is hardly equivalent.


I don’t know how to explain the vulnerability aspect of sex for women without upsetting people. I don’t know if they’ll be able to understand, it’s not something they’ve ever experienced and I can’t think of anything in a typical man’s life that comes anywhere close to it. Everything I think of to say will lead to hurt feelings and defensiveness. I get what you’re saying here, I know exactly what you mean. I’m at a loss as to how to explain it to someone who doesn’t already get it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Erudite said:


> You don't have to look far to see why some women stop holding hands..cuz the husband thinks it will lead to sex. Same with a cuddle or back rub..


Pure projection.

There are women with men solely for the finances and stability and they don't want to hold his hand because they aren't interested in him in any way except for the benefits of having someone provide for them.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don’t know how to explain the vulnerability aspect of sex for women without upsetting people. I don’t know if they’ll be able to understand, it’s not something they’ve ever experienced and I can’t think of anything in a typical man’s life that comes anywhere close to it. Everything I think of to say will lead to hurt feelings and defensiveness. I get what you’re saying here, I know exactly what you mean. I’m at a loss as to how to explain it to someone who doesn’t already get it.


Thank you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Erudite said:


> I agree with the love languages and will say they work in theory and on principle. I have advocated for each. But, but, but...physical touch is distinct from sex. Sex means getting real. We are talking about someone's body for crying out loud. As a quid pro qo argument going to the museum to meet someone's love language and getting naked to meet someone's love language is hardly equivalent.


Well if you aren't interested in a continuing lifelong sexual relationship with a man, don't MARRY him!!!


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Pure projection.
> 
> There are women with men solely for the finances and stability and they don't want to hold his hand because they aren't interested in him in any way except for the benefits of having someone provide for them.


What you are descibing is a woman who wants a sugar daddy. A straight up gold digger. No different than a guy who want a prostitute for a wife.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Well if you aren't interested in a continuing lifelong sexual relationship with a man, don't MARRY him!!!


Oh come on, who has a crystal ball and knows how a marriage will turn out.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Erudite said:


> Oh come on, who has a crystal ball and knows how a marriage will turn out.


Everyone with average intelligence knows marriage is a sexual relationship.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Everyone with average intelligence knows marriage is a sexual relationship.


I think you are walking a very fine line. Also sex merely is 1 component of a marriage. Marriage is not predicated upon it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

The bottom line for ME is that NO ONE ELSE has the right to define sexual deal-breakers for me or anyone else.

If someone else believes that a sexless spouse should be given tons of understanding and space, GREAT, you do YOU.
But that's not me. That will NEVER be ME.

I am always very clear that any monogamous relationship with me will include sex. If someone else doesn't want that, with the only reason being, "I just don't feel like it right now", while I am frustrated and needing a sexual connection with my partner...then that person is wrong for me.

If someone like that is a worthwhile partner for someone else, that's perfect for them. And I'm fine with that.

But I expect the same consideration with anyone who wants to have a discussion with me about it, or if they want my respect. Because otherwise, I just hear "pot-stirrers" and people making excuses and who enjoy arguing.

And anyone who believes they have the right to judge me (or anyone else) and tell me what I am supposed to do in my relationship has nothing of value to offer me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> I think you are walking a very fine line. Also sex merely is 1 component of a marriage. Marriage is not predicated upon it.


It is not predicated upon it FOR YOU.

I feel very differently.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LisaDiane said:


> The bottom line for ME is that NO ONE ELSE has the right to define sexual deal-breakers for me or anyone else.
> 
> If someone else believes that a sexless spouse should be given tons of understanding and space, GREAT, you do YOU.
> But that's not me. That will NEVER be ME.
> ...



Sure you do you. But it seems weird that you are flatky judging someone with a different view.
No one is denying there is a sexual component to marriage. But no one can tell in advance before marrying someone how things will play out. When I married my husband we were BANGIN. It was amazing stuff. I don't think anyone here would begrudge my desire for dying in the face of his abuse. For others it might not be abuse. It might be medical. It might be trauma. It might be stress. I don't owe anyone my body. Married or not. Don't like it? Good leave.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LisaDiane said:


> It is not predicated upon it FOR YOU.
> 
> I feel very differently.


No, for most people. Sure it may be at the top of the list for alot of people. No denying that, but marriage has other components. It's NEVER all about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Never, unless you are a pimp or a gold digger.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> Sure you do you. But it seems weird that you are flatky judging someone with a different view.
> No one is denying there is a sexual component to marriage. But no one can tell in advance before marrying someone how things will play out. When I married my husband we were BANGIN. It was amazing stuff. I don't think anyone here would begrudge my desire for dying in the face of his abuse. For others it might not be abuse. It might be medical. It might be trauma. It might be stress. *I don't owe anyone my body. Married or not. Don't like it? Good leave.*


I'm not sure where you are getting that I am "flatly judging" anyone. I said several times, I don't mind what others do.

I certainly care about what my partner does and how he feels about sex. So if you are referring to me judging a current or potential partner and their response to my sexual needs, you are exactly right I will, and I'm prepared to defend that to you if you don't understand my stance on it.

However, I don't judge what anyone else chooses for their relationship. 

See that part I bolded...?? THAT is exactly what those of us against sexlessness say, that you are criticizing. Yet, for your boundaries, you believe it's ok (I agree with you). So you ARE ok with leaving when there are deal-breakers in a relationship that aren't changed, exactly like the rest of us.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> No, for most people. Sure it may be at the top of the list for alot of people. No denying that, but marriage has other components. It's NEVER all about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Never, unless you are a pimp or a gold digger.


That's my point. I don't care if it's one person or most people. It's not ME.

You can define marriage and monogamy and needs YOUR way...I just expect that you will also allow ME the same freedom to define those things for myself.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Don't like it? Good leave.


Isn’t that exactly what you were taking offense to earlier?

I don’t think you’ll find a single person in this thread that feels they have a right to someone else’s body for sex, or even wants that. But there are several here who feel that the absence of sex is a deal breaker and as such they will leave.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I don't owe anyone my body. Married or not.


There's a very broad difference between an expectation that sex will be part of someone's marriage and believing that person owes you access to their body. I know what you mean, but I think this touches on what I said earlier: the vulnerability aspect is not something that is well understood. 

There are a lot of reasons why sex can slow or stop in a marriage. What's important is that both partners decide if they want to be in the marriage and if so, work together to solve their problems.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Sure, there are deal breakers in every relationship. I have a problem specifically with SEX being the deal breaker. In case anyone missed it we live in the #metoo era. If you believe that women have exclusive control over their bodies, if you are pro choice, if you are against sexual assault, if you are against workplace harrassment, and you believe that being married gets you a free pass around a woman's right to her body....Well there is nothing I can say.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There's a very broad difference between an expectation that sex will be part of someone's marriage and believing that person owes you access to their body. I know what you mean, but I think this touches on what I said earlier: the vulnerability aspect is not something that is well understood.
> 
> There are a lot of reasons why sex can slow or stop in a marriage. What's important is that both partners decide if they want to be in the marriage and if so, work together to solve their problems.


Then you would have ti be very careful in how you approach it. Most of it seems reduced to a transactional, you owe me mindset. Which is coersive.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> Sure, there are deal breakers in every relationship. I have a problem specifically with SEX being the deal breaker. In case anyone missed it we live in the #metoo era. If you believe that women have exclusive control over their bodies, if you are pro choice, if you are against sexual assault, if you are against workplace harrassment, and you believe that being married gets you a free pass around a woman's right to her body....Well there is nothing I can say.


You are free to have a problem with that in your own relationship. I can empathize with you if you ever posted asking for support with that, even if I feel differently than you do. Because I support your right to define your needs and relationship for yourself.

However, YOU do not get to tell ME that I am wrong or shallow because sex IS a deal-breaker FOR ME. 
I don't care what era we live in. My needs are MINE. And I have just as much right to feel opposite of you as you do to feel opposite of me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> Then you would have ti be very careful in how you approach it. Most of it seems reduced to a transactional, you owe me mindset. Which is coersive.


It's not "coercive" to have boundaries and to hold fast to them. If someone doesn't want to care about my sexual needs and desires, then they are free to leave and find someone who isn't as demanding as I am to them.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Then you would have ti be very careful in how you approach it. Most of it seems reduced to a *transactional, you owe me mindset*. Which is coersive.


Oh for sure it does. And what is so crazy is that an attitude like that is a sure way to shut down sex in a marriage. If you make a woman feel like she's your property, something you own that exists for your use, she is definitely not going to want to be vulnerable around you. 

BUT, I also think this is an internet forum and sometimes we say things in a way that doesn't really represent our meaning. What I'm saying is that I don't think that is happening with a lot of the people on HERE. But it for sure does happen.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

pastasauce79 said:


> You don't know what I've been through or what I've witnessed.
> 
> I've seen plenty of violence. I've been a victim of violence. When you are trapped at somebody else's mercy, or bullets are coming at you out of nowhere, porn worries are the last thing in your mind. Maybe I'm desensitized by now.
> 
> You are the foolish one thinking porn is the biggest problem society has.


I never said porn was the only problem society has. It’s one problem of many. You defended porn and I pointed out the harm it does. I’m sorry for the violence you’ve witnessed and been a part of- that doesn’t make porn right.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

I really do get what you are saying. Truly. It's fine to say "I can't live like this". It's not fine to guilt them or give them ultimatums. Imho.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> If you knew the life of Cletus better you would understand how wrong that statement is. He is definitely a patient dude when it comes to his wife and sex


Cletus isn’t patient. He admittedly ignores his wife sexually and retreats to porn because she isn’t sexually adventurous. How’s that patient- that he chose not to divorce her? Yeah, big hero.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I really do get what you are saying. Truly. It's fine to say "I can't live like this". It's not fine to guilt them or *give them ultimatums*. Imho.


I would say it's not ok to threaten them. "I can't live like this" is an ultimatum, but it's not a threat, it's just a statement of fact. When you say ultimatums in the bolded part, do you mean harsh ultimatums, like "have sex with me right now or I will do _insert threat here, I can't think of anything_? Like the whole thing with the 180, where some people go extreme and stop paying bills and speaking to their spouse until she has sex with him? Because we established that most people don't think that's ok.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> I really do get what you are saying. Truly. It's fine to say "I can't live like this". It's not fine to guilt them or give them ultimatums. Imho.


Isn't "I can't live like this" an ultimatum or guilt tactic though??

My STBX certainly thought so, so he lied, blame-shifted, and gaslighted me because he didn't want to lose his "wife appliance" just because sex wasn't important to HIM.

But you are correct, all the other benefits that I provided him were very valuable to him and he didn't want to go without those. He told me what you said -- marriage is about more than sex...which translated to me being the perfect sexless wife for him. And the only way to let him know that I wasn't going to stay was to give him "an ultimatum"...what other way is there to set boundaries with someone??


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Oh for sure it does. And what is so crazy is that an attitude like that is a sure way to shut down sex in a marriage. If you make a woman feel like she's your property, something you own that exists for your use, she is definitely not going to want to be vulnerable around you.
> 
> BUT, I also think this is an internet forum and sometimes we say things in a way that doesn't really represent our meaning. What I'm saying is that I don't think that is happening with a lot of the people on HERE. But it for sure does happen.


I have seen in this thread at least that there is a desire to figure out a compromise that is agreeable to both parties. But I also have seen some slippery slope thinking. It's not nearly as bad as I have seen on other threads. Maybe that is why I have been a bit more forceful. Usually I just duck out. Lol


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> You are good for only one type of post ..... just like a good Catholic porn addict.


I saw the errors of my ways and gave up porn- for what it’s worth. What’s wrong with encouraging others to do the same?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Isn't "I can't live like this" an ultimatum or guilt tactic though??


Yeah I didn’t play with any of that. I just said well here is where I’m at and if you are interested in remaining married we need to work on this problem together and if you’re not that’s ok but ultimately we will separate.

There is no guilt or coercion, you’re informing your partner of your feelings and telling them what the deal is and asking them if they want to continue or not. 

The answer can be no. 

That would have been very painful for me, but the lack of a sexual relationship I was happy with was important enough to me to risk all the other things we have and risk that ultimate rejection.

We had that discussion exactly once and that is all we will ever have it. Everything that needed to be said was said.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> I have seen in this thread at least that there is a desire to figure out a compromise that is agreeable to both parties. But I also have seen some slippery slope thinking. It's not nearly as bad as I have seen on other threads. Maybe that is why I have been a bit more forceful. Usually I just duck out. Lol


What I have see in your posts and some others is an inability to personally detach from the expectations and reactions of other posters in their relationships. I'm not sure why what other people think, want, or do is so important to you, but you should be aware that almost no one expects YOU (or anyone) to conduct your life and relationships the way they do.
No one is putting their values onto YOU.

I know I don't. If you want to be sexless or spend time compromising, or expect your partner to allow you to be sexless, I'm FINE with it. Like I said, you do you. I'll always point out the potential consequences (good and bad), but I won't tell you that you are wrong to feel your way.

It might help you if you worked on being ok with other people wanting and expecting different things from their partners.

Because YOUR way isn't the right way for everyone. And MY way isn't the right way for everyone either.

And that's perfectly ok.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LisaDiane said:


> What I have see in your posts and some others is an inability to personally detach from the expectations and reactions of other posters in their relationships. I'm not sure why what other people think, want, or do is so important to you, but you should be aware that almost no one expects YOU (or anyone) to conduct your life and relationships the way they do.
> No one is putting their values onto YOU.
> 
> I know I don't. If you want to be sexless or spend time compromising, or expect your partner to allow you to be sexless, I'm FINE with it. Like I said, you do you. I'll always point out the potential consequences (good and bad), but I won't tell you that you are wrong to feel your way.
> ...


Isn't the act of even posting or engaging in this conversation inviting different thoughts and views? I am NOT saying don't do you. I am not saying that you have to be like me. The only thing I hope, not expect hope, is that maybe something I say resonates with someone and they go home to their spouse and ask the spouse's opinion. If spouse says " That woman has issues, she doesn't know us, and is full of it" great proceed in any way you see fit.My feelings will not be hurt. Trust me.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I saw the errors of my ways and gave up porn- for what it’s worth. What’s wrong with encouraging others to do the same?


Your approach for “encouraging” looks more like this


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Man ..... it’s getting hot in here !!!! 😅


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> Your approach for “encouraging” looks more like this
> View attachment 81912


Except I’ve never said that. Rather, I’ve called porn users lowlifes, wussies, and pervs. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings… boo hoo.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Except I’ve never said that. Rather, I’ve called porn users lowlifes, wussies, and pervs. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings… boo hoo.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> Isn't the act of even posting or engaging in this conversation inviting different thoughts and views? I am NOT saying don't do you. I am not saying that you have to be like me. The only thing I hope, not expect hope, is that maybe something I say resonates with someone and they go home to their spouse and ask the spouse's opinion. If spouse says " That woman has issues, she doesn't know us, and is full of it" great proceed in any way you see fit.My feelings will not be hurt. Trust me.


Absolutely I invite different thoughts and views. And I am always happy to engage and share my experiences and my point of view, and having it challenged. 

I don't mind anyone who sees things differently than I do, or who feels I am wrong.

What I don't like is the expectation that anyone who doesn't see things one way, is somehow "coercive" or "abusive" or wrong. And you have used those words in your posts here, along with a few other posters. And a few times you did sound like your feelings were hurt.

Usually, accusations like that shut people down to that perspective, it doesn't open anyone up or engender any kind of positive dialog between people. And it's hypocritical, even if you spoke that way inadvertently. It's still not the way to engage in any conversation where you have hopes that something you say will resonate with anyone.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah I didn’t play with any of that. I just said well here is where I’m at and if you are interested in remaining married we need to work on this problem together and if you’re not that’s ok but ultimately we will separate.
> 
> There is no guilt or coercion, you’re informing your partner of your feelings and telling them what the deal is and asking them if they want to continue or not.
> 
> ...


Maybe your tuning into her love languages helped convince her of your sincerity then? Two people can say the exact same thing. One is simply coersive. Do this or I will that. One is honesty. How is a spouse to tell the difference unless some other work is involved and it seems like a permanent change and not some tit for tat trick?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Except I’ve never said that. Rather, I’ve called porn users lowlifes, wussies, and pervs. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings… boo hoo.


I am honestly asking you this --- how do you reconcile your sense of pride in your views...when God has named that a sin too?

I'm not being sarcastic or critical, I really want to know.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Not approved by decent people. Marriage is supposed to be for life.


My respected TAM fellow: 
I suspect that we may agree about words while giving them different meanings.
If I´m right about this, to make it clearer may lead to a philosophic debate out of the scope and purposes of this thread.
So, allow me to end it in the extension of my best wishes to you.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I saw the errors of my ways and gave up porn- for what it’s worth. What’s wrong with encouraging others to do the same?


Nothing wrong at all.
Just and perhaps doing it when is relevant would be even better.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LisaDiane said:


> Absolutely I invite different thoughts and views. And I am always happy to engage and share my experiences and my point of view, and having it challenged.
> 
> I don't mind anyone who sees things differently than I do, or who feels I am wrong.
> 
> ...


My feelings hurt? By this conversation? No, not particularly. The language I use may be sound harsh sometimes but that is because it is a difficult topic. If one of these spouses had similar feelings to mine do you think she would freely share them with her spouse? I mean I am some rando woman on the internet and the defensiveness goes into the stratosphere. A wiman who is already feeling coerced is not going to come out and invite more of the same.

Has this conversation brought up feelings about my own life? Of course, but the nature of the discussion invites it. Thats the point. If it's that distressing to some to be compared even obliquely to my ex again my feelings won't be hurt. Ignore me and I will probably wander away to count butterflies somewhere. Lol


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would say it's not ok to threaten them. "I can't live like this" is an ultimatum, but it's not a threat, it's just a statement of fact. When you say ultimatums in the bolded part, do you mean harsh ultimatums, like "have sex with me right now or I will do _insert threat here, I can't think of anything_? Like the whole thing with the 180, where some people go extreme and stop paying bills and speaking to their spouse until she has sex with him? Because we established that most people don't think that's ok.


Most people don't CONDONE it but when you feel like you have little recourse and people start addressing their options it somehow becomes more palatable because their circumstances are different of course. It's the same rational cheaters use And before people jump on me I don't have any particular poster in mind ...


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Most people don't CONDONE it but when you feel like you have little recourse and people start addressing their options it somehow becomes more palatable because their circumstances are different of course. It's the same rational cheaters use And before people jump on me I don't have any particular poster in mind ...


I understand, we're speaking generally, not specifically. (That seems to be necessary to say, people take things personally. Not a criticism from me, because glass houses...  Just an observation)

Another thing that happens is they'll say "If you don't think it's ok to do everything possible to get sex into the relationship, you don't think men have a right to do ANYTHING to get sex back in the relationship." Basically claiming that no matter what, everything they are doing is always ok because they need the sex and the ends justify the means. That's not true at all, and just like with cheaters, they're using a straw man argument to silence dissent and justify doing what they want. Not much I can say about that either, because I'm guilty of it as well. 

There's also a vocal minority on here that's part of the whole "submissive wife" ideology who view women as something between a child and a dog. Their advice is always "take charge" and just take what you want. Some of them even try to convince us that their wives love being degraded, humiliated and abused. You can't take them seriously, they're not here to advise.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Erudite said:


> I think you are walking a very fine line. Also sex merely is 1 component of a marriage. Marriage is not predicated upon it.


Except that sex is what distinguishes a marriage from a regular friendship. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> Except that sex is what distinguishes a marriage from a regular friendship.


I have a number of friends. I don't live with them, I don't share finances with them and I don't have children with them. I'm not arguing that sex isn't important, but if the only difference between a spouse and a friend is that you're having sex, isn't that more of a sex buddy?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Erudite said:


> I really do get what you are saying. Truly. It's fine to say "I can't live like this". It's not fine to guilt them or give them ultimatums. Imho.


When it comes right down to it, what is the difference? One is overt...the other subtle...but the implications are exactly the same. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Erudite said:


> Sure you do you. But it seems weird that you are flatky judging someone with a different view.
> No one is denying there is a sexual component to marriage. But no one can tell in advance before marrying someone how things will play out. When I married my husband we were BANGIN. It was amazing stuff. I don't think anyone here would begrudge my desire for dying in the face of his abuse. For others it might not be abuse. It might be medical. It might be trauma. It might be stress. I don't owe anyone my body. Married or not. Don't like it? Good leave.


Well if those things can't be worked through, then you SHOULD leave the marriage, IF your partner wants a sexual relationship and you don't, because marriage is a sexual relationship and trying to convince anyone that it's not is just silly. 

And if your partner is an asshole, generally, you should be leaving the relationship.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I understand, we're speaking generally, not specifically. (That seems to be necessary to say, people take things personally. Not a criticism from me, because glass houses...  Just an observation)
> 
> Another thing that happens is they'll say "If you don't think it's ok to do everything possible to get sex into the relationship, you don't think men have a right to do ANYTHING to get sex back in the relationship." That's not true at all, and just like with cheaters, they're using a straw man argument to silence dissent and justify doing what they want. Not much I can say about that either, because I'm guilty of it as well.
> 
> There's also a vocal minority on here that's part of the whole "submissive wife" ideology who view women as something between a child and a dog. Their advice is always "take charge" and just take what you want. Some of them even try to convince us that their wives love being degraded, humiliated and abused. You can't take them seriously, they're not here to advise.


I have seen examples of everything you just said all over TAM at one point or another. I am only now admitting in my darkest moments that I am an abuse survivor, though. Maybe it DOES color my posts more than I am willung to admit.

So say a husband is feeling sex starved and he starts trying to speak his wife's love language because he thinks it will get him sex. He is doing the "right thing" by objective standards. But in the life of the abused it is called love bombing and future faking. You give her enough, for long enough, to think you've changed until you get what you think you deserve then go right back to the old ways when you think you have trapped her again.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I have a number of friends. I don't live with them, I don't share finances with them and I don't have children with them. I'm not arguing that sex isn't important, but if the only difference between a spouse and a friend is that you're having sex, isn't that more of a sex buddy?


I think you may have it backwards....

If you take away the sex, then aren't you then relegating the relationship/marriage to little more than those relationships you have with those other folks, no? I mean, sure, you could move in with one of those nice people, share finances, go places together, etc...at that point it would be just about the same as a sexless marriage....

But then you wouldn't care who they slept with, right??

Why then does the person who shuts down completely, has zero interest in sex or their partner sexually, worry so much about how the other person gets that itch scratched? Thats the puzzling aspect to it....I get that once a person loves another, then they don't want to be betrayed, but I have people I love in my life, but have zero interest in what they do with their sex life...

And that's the part that makes it so untenable for so many...Its a catch 22...They can't have sex with their spouse, because he/she says its off the table, but you can't have it with anyone else, either... Sure, you can divorce and they have no control over you, but why does it necessarily come to that?


I think more people in these cases should just turn the other way if that's their choice to back out of sexual relations... I dunno...it almost seems a bit unfair, but a lot of life is unfair...


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Well if those things can't be worked through, then you SHOULD leave the marriage, IF your partner wants a sexual relationship and you don't, because marriage is a sexual relationship and trying to convince anyone that it's not is just silly.
> 
> And if your partner is an asshole, generally, you should be leaving the relationship.


True I should have left a long time ago. 😎


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Erudite said:


> So when I say what I say, I mean it. Because I had a husband who exhibited all these behaviours. I believe he started in a reasonable place, as most men here do actually, but once he found a tactic that worked took it to an extreme. It worked in the short term but look where it got him in the end.


What you went through was horrific. Your ex-husband's manipulation tactics along with the fact that he didn't hold up all of his vows to you was wrong. Very wrong. It is terrible to hear that you had friends in your community that also sufferred the same fate. I am but one person, but I promise you that not all communities are like this. Men come in all shapes and sizes. Just because some men here are frustrated and start down one path to try and fix things doesn't mean they'll end up in the same place as your ex-husband.



Erudite said:


> I agree with the love languages and will say they work in theory and on principle. I have advocated for each. But, but, but...physical touch is distinct from sex. Sex means getting real. We are talking about someone's body for crying out loud. As a quid pro qo argument going to the museum to meet someone's love language and getting naked to meet someone's love language is hardly equivalent.


I disagree. The love language of physical touch isn't distinct from sex. It is all physical touches that aslo_ includes_ sex.

Like most men, my #1 love language is physical touch. Included in that package is obviously sex.... and I happen to love sex. A LOT. Like..... super ultra A LOT. 

But I feel love from my wife in a variety of other ways through physical touch. For example, one of my favorites is what I call, "TAM in bed". 😁 

I'll usually browse TAM for a couple of hours while I lay in bed before falling asleep on a tablet. My wife usually falls asleep 1-2 hours before I do. Every night, she wakes up slightly, rolls around, notices me laying on my back, rolls over to me to bear hug me and fall asleep again with her head on my chest.  I got TAM on my tablet in one hand while I rub my wife's back and brush my fingers through her hair as she blissfully falls back asleep. Nothing sexual about it, but it brings me a very smooth feeling of peace. I very much feel loved when she does this. She gives me an overwhelming sense of pride. I feel like her man. Her protector.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Erudite said:


> I have seen examples of everything you just said all over TAM at one point or another. I am only now admitting in my darkest moments that I am an abuse survivor, though. Maybe it DOES color my posts more than I am willung to admit.
> 
> So say a husband is feeling sex starved and he starts trying to speak his wife's love language because he thinks it will get him sex. He is doing the "right thing" by objective standards. But in the life of the abused it is called love bombing and future faking. You give her enough, for long enough, to think you've changed until you get what you think you deserve then go right back to the old ways when you think you have trapped her again.


This is a tricky business because this is also right.

But that puts the non-abusive HD in a precarious position in that the only left to try is doing less, when doing more should be the first step.

I am not sure what the right answer here is, other than to say that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to each situation. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> I think you may have it backwards....
> 
> If you take away the sex, then aren't you then relegating the relationship/marriage to little more than those relationships you have with those other folks, no? I mean, sure, you could move in with one of those nice people, share finances, go places together, etc...at that point it would be just about the same as a sexless marriage....
> 
> ...


 I disagree. If you move in with a friend, etc, you have changed the friendship to something else. I reject entirely that my husband and I are F buddies. We’re over here building a life and a family, we’re much more than pals who do it. 

What I absolutely agree with is that if one spouse insists on taking sex completely off the table, then they have abdicated their involvement in the other’s sex life.They are changing the relationship and it’s unfair for those changes to be one way only. I have said numerous times, if only one person’s needs matter, the marriage is not a good one, even if they stay together.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I have seen examples of everything you just said all over TAM at one point or another. I am only now admitting in my darkest moments that I am an abuse survivor, though. Maybe it DOES color my posts more than I am willung to admit.
> 
> So say a husband is feeling sex starved and he starts trying to speak his wife's love language because he thinks it will get him sex. He is doing the "right thing" by objective standards. But in the life of the abused it is called love bombing and future faking. You give her enough, for long enough, to think you've changed until you get what you think you deserve then go right back to the old ways when you think you have trapped her again.


That is a risk inherent in relationships. The other person could be insincere in their interactions with you and just manipulating you to get what they want. But as you say, it’s cyclical. The victim in that scenario has to realize it and leave.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I disagree. If you move in with a friend, etc, you have changed the friendship to something else.


I have done it a few times, moving in with one or more men as roommates who were already my friends.

We shared food and household items. We sometimes shared money.

Sometimes we talked about deep feelings and such.

We were NEVER having sex or anything like that.

It’s more akin to your sister moving in with you. If you’re buddies with her she’s your roommate and you share things and maybe buy each other stuff but I pray you’re not having sex with your sister.

That is what it is like, maybe even a better description than roommate because your sister is your family like your wife, and you might take a bullet for her or do major favors and such that you wouldn’t do for just a friend but you’re NOT in a romantic relationship with her.

I don’t want my wife to be my sister. I want a romantic relationship with her and that includes sex.

When I explained this to my wife during the one time we discussed it in detail she immediately understood there was a problem there and what we were doing was broken.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s more akin to your sister moving in with you. If you’re buddies with her she’s your roommate and you share things and maybe buy each other stuff but I pray you’re not having sex with your sister.


I didn't think of it that way, you're completely right. The difference is my husband and I are family. Thank you.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That is a risk inherent in relationships. The other person could be insincere in their interactions with you and just manipulating you to get what they want. But as you say, it’s cyclical. The victim in that scenario has to realize it and leave.


I agree. But here is the rub. Time. If you have never spoken your spouses love language or stopped for a very long time to suddenly start doing it will, I guarantee, feel fake and manipulative. Even if you have the best of intentions. Even if you see their point of view and realize you have been an ass and essentially drove them to this place If you love your spouse it could take YEARS to prove yourself. Are you ready for that?

On the other side it is so easy to say recognize it for what it is and leave. It took me over 6 years to realize it. Because I wanted so desperately for my marraige to work.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I am honestly asking you this --- how do you reconcile your sense of pride in your views...when God has named that a sin too?
> 
> I'm not being sarcastic or critical, I really want to know.


Is it really “pride” to call a porn user a lowlife?

… I’m a sinful man and pride is perhaps my most serious vice. I often take credit for God’s blessings…Lord, have mercy on me- a poor sinner.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I agree. But here is the rub. Time. If you have never spoken your spouses love language or stopped for a very long time to suddenly start doing it will, I guarantee, feel fake and manipulative. Even if you have the best of intentions. Even if you see their point of view and realize you have been an ass and essentially drove them to this place If you love your spouse it could take YEARS to prove yourself. Are you ready for that?


If you're sincere in wanting to fix the marriage, you have to willing to give it time.



Erudite said:


> On the other side it is so easy to say recognize it for what it is and leave. It took me over 6 years to realize it. Because I wanted so desperately for my marraige to work.


It's very easy to say, and very, very hard to do. Abuse is like a frog boiling in the pot. By the time the abuser is done grooming you, you don't even realize what happened.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I agree. But here is the rub. Time. If you have never spoken your spouses love language or stopped for a very long time to suddenly start doing it will, I guarantee, feel fake and manipulative.


I don't think it is possible for me to agree with this statement more. You are 100% correct. 

I was VERY close to divorcing the woman I love more than anything. Your statement here? I was in a whirlwind. I didn't know what to do. This is how I found TAM in the first place. 

Fake. Manipulative. You couldn't have said this any better. What indeed was the endgame that my wife was pulling? What underhanded bullshyt was she up to? Is she trying to lull me back to sleep to steal more years from me?

Yep. You are correct, Erudite. Please realize that women are just as capable of doing exactly what you just said here too. 

I have a ton of work still to do in my marriage. Getting back to a point where I fully trust my wife again. Constantly on edge every single day waiting for her to pull the rug out from under me again and reverting back to where I REFUSE to go. I don't want to feel like my wife has ulterior motives. I want to believe her heart is pure and honest. I'm not there yet and it will be most likely a long time. 

I'm only saying this so that it is clear that this goes both ways.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I don't think it is possible for me to agree with this statement more. You are 100% correct.
> 
> I was VERY close to divorcing the woman I love more than anything. Your statement here? I was in a whirlwind. I didn't know what to do. This is how I found TAM in the first place.
> 
> ...


For sure! So I am going to step off my soap box about whether or not sex should be a deal breaker. I am sure we are all clear on views on that here by now. I really want to address this last post because I think it is sooo important. We can't just "make up" for years of neglect of any sort. Especially if there is short term gain for us.

Towards the end of my marriage I desperately WANTED my husband to cheat physically on me. I wanted this even though I knew it would crush me. He wasn't going to die. He wasn't going to divorce me. I couldn't make myself leave him. I just wanted him to let me go. Is that okay? To ask someone, as nonjudgementally as possible, to let you go?


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I never said porn was the only problem society has. It’s one problem of many. You defended porn and I pointed out the harm it does. I’m sorry for the violence you’ve witnessed and been a part of- that doesn’t make porn right.


You decide what's right for you. I decide what's right for me.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

pastasauce79 said:


> You decide what's right for you. I decide what's right for me.


Of course. You engaged me here comparing porn to gluten intolerance. I pointed out real people are harmed by porn. You point out you’re a victim of violence and keeping your porn. Good chat.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Is it really “pride” to call a porn user a lowlife?
> 
> … I’m a sinful man and pride is perhaps my most serious vice. I often take credit for God’s blessings…Lord, have mercy on me- a poor sinner.


YES. It is really pride.

So I wonder too...does this mean that you are willing to give up porn to please God, but not your pridefulness? Because He is NOT please by that either.

(I'm not being sarcastic or anything bad to you)


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Erudite said:


> For sure! So I am going to step off my soap box about whether or not sex should be a deal breaker. I am sure we are all clear on views on that here by now. I really want to address this last post because I think it is sooo important. We can't just "make up" for years of neglect of any sort. Especially if there is short term gain for us.
> 
> Towards the end of my marriage I desperately WANTED my husband to cheat physically on me. I wanted this even though I knew it would crush me. He wasn't going to die. He wasn't going to divorce me. I couldn't make myself leave him. I just wanted him to let me go. Is that okay? To ask someone, as nonjudgementally as possible, to let you go?


Wow.
Are our brains linked?

I know EXACTLY what this feels like. No question.

all nice an anonymous here.

I too thought the same thing. It’s one of the things I’m still coming to grips with. I wanted the out. I didn’t care how I got it. I wanted out. I desperately needed out. I felt ashamed that no one would understand that I needed to leave my wife because I was so damn alone and felt worthless. Unloveable. I can tell you with 100% certainty, I would rather be alone, living by myself, seeing my kids 50% of the time, never dating again than to EVER go back to the prison my wife shoved me in.

it’s only been due to my time on TAM and other places that I’ve realized there is nothing to be ashamed about with what I went through. If my wife works as hard as I do for the marriage, we live happily ever after. No question. I love her. If she can’t, I’ll be crushed, but then I gotta go.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I have a number of friends. I don't live with them, I don't share finances with them and I don't have children with them. I'm not arguing that sex isn't important, but if the only difference between a spouse and a friend is that you're having sex, isn't that more of a sex buddy?


My highly respected friend, I use to agree with a lot of your viewpoints and sympathize with most of them.
I can´t say I´m with you on this specific post.
Those counterfactuals are weak ones. 
I can list others, true presonal experiences, that say the opposite.
And..........them, my ones, would be as weak arguments as I find yours to be.
As a frame is not or may be shouldn´t be relevant to loving relationships, where "love" is of one specific love kind.
Being in love.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> YES. It is really pride.
> 
> So I wonder too...does this mean that you are willing to give up porn to please God, but not your pridefulness? Because He is NOT please by that either.
> 
> (I'm not being sarcastic or anything bad to you)


I will work on my pride. One book I’m picking up again is entitled “Humility of Heart”.

But let me get this straight. You’re calling out my pride when there are other guys here that consistently brag about how alpha and sexed up they are- and that’s NOT pride. One of these braggarts in particular is supposedly an ordained minister. If you haven’t challenged him on his pride- you’re a hypocrite.

I give everyone grief about porn. You hypocritically call out my pride even though I’ve never once bragged about myself personally- except perhaps that I’ve said I’m a reformed porn user or called porn users lowlifes. Gosh, how awfully prideful of me to think I understand more about men, porn, and porn recovery than others.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> Gosh, how awfully prideful of me to think I understand more about men, porn, and recovery than others.


Yes, it is.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I will work on my pride. One book I’m picking up again is entitled “Humility of Heart”.
> 
> But let me get this straight. You’re calling out my pride when there are other guys here that consistently brag about how alpha and sexed up they are- and that’s NOT pride. One of these braggarts in particular is supposedly an ordained minister. If you haven’t challenged him on his pride- you’re a hypocrite.
> 
> I give everyone grief about porn. You hypocritically call out my pride even though I’ve never once bragged about myself personally- except perhaps that I’ve said I’m a reformed porn user or called porn users lowlifes. Gosh, how awfully prideful of me to think I understand more about men, porn, and recovery than others.


Calm down. I wasn't attacking you, I was just asking.

If you are talking about @ConanHub, I have pointed out and teased him about his pride several times.

But the reason I mentioned it to YOU is because you are the one on here calling people names for not agreeing with you, and I was curious how you viewed that sin, because you are SO vocal about pleasing God and doing what is right, yet your attitude is abrasive and even hateful at times.

Which doesn't bother ME, but I was only curious about why you condemned one sin, but seemed to embrace and even enjoy another.

And if you read all my posts, you will see that I have sometimes waded into threads where I see hypocrisy and post questions or comments about that. So it's not just you.

I ask questions when things don't make sense to me, because I'm curious about why people don't see it my way, and I want to find out why.

I never mean anything judgmental by it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Calm down. I wasn't attacking you, I was just asking.
> 
> If you are talking about @ConanHub, I have pointed out and teased him about his pride several times.
> 
> ...


Anyone who has been around here a while and knows me, understands that I share data freely.

Anyone that knows me, knows I value my marriage to Mrs. Conan very highly and my family as well.

I take a humorous approach to my past and also get a kick out of human sexual behavior and attraction.

It's kind of funny to me that men feel I'm bragging when sharing Data.
That's their problem though. 

I'm pretty transparent here and I have always admitted to being a recovering ass hole.

@CatholicDad definitely has no reason to call you out if he has me in mind. He knows I will talk scripture any time he wants.

I think you're a little blessing Lisa.😉


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow.
> Are our brains linked?
> 
> I know EXACTLY what this feels like. No question.
> ...


Well..... Very not bad dude.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Well..... Very not bad dude.


Dammit. I’m gonna have to say it.

conan, you got me all confused. I don’t understand your message here to me. 😂


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Dammit. I’m gonna have to say it.
> 
> conan, you got me all confused. I don’t understand your message here to me. 😂


LoL. It was a compliment. Good post.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Of course. You engaged me here comparing porn to gluten intolerance. I pointed out real people are harmed by porn. You point out you’re a victim of violence and keeping your porn. Good chat.


I agree with you. Good grief!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I will work on my pride. One book I’m picking up again is entitled “Humility of Heart”.
> 
> But let me get this straight. You’re calling out my pride when there are other guys here that consistently brag about how alpha and sexed up they are- and that’s NOT pride. One of these braggarts in particular is supposedly an ordained minister. If you haven’t challenged him on his pride- you’re a hypocrite.
> 
> I give everyone grief about porn. You hypocritically call out my pride even though I’ve never once bragged about myself personally- except perhaps that I’ve said I’m a reformed porn user or called porn users lowlifes. Gosh, how awfully prideful of me to think I understand more about men, porn, and porn recovery than others.


Of course it is.

The difference is that they don't necessarily follow a faith or doctrine prohibiting such things as pride, so what are you actually holding them accountable to? Certainly not their own convictions, which is exactly what you are being held to.

In other words, your judgement of them is just fine, yet when you are judged, it is quite the opposite.

Take your lumps. It will ultimately help you work through it. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I’ve been ticked off for two days but admit- I’m a prideful jackoss.

I apologize for calling porn users names. I ask for your forgiveness, brothers and sisters. I’m going to chill on name calling and personal attacks.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I’ve been ticked off for two days but admit- I’m a prideful jackoss.
> 
> I apologize for calling porn users names. I ask for your forgiveness, brothers and sisters. I’m going to chill on name calling and personal attacks.


That's an excellent first step, and I applaud you for making it publicly.

Will you just stop the name calling, or do you think your actual opinion might moderate? This is not a trick question, I won't bash you if the answer is "I don't think so". 

One of the reasons I am still here is that this forum exposes me to people and opinions to whom I otherwise might not have much access. That is a good thing, since it is too easy to become insulated in a bubble of our own prejudices.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I’ve been ticked off for two days but admit- I’m a prideful jackoss.
> 
> I apologize for calling porn users names. I ask for your forgiveness, brothers and sisters. I’m going to chill on name calling and personal attacks.


I will say, I use to get very annoyed by the constant beating of the evil porn drum you pound, but once I learned you once had a porn problem I realized, that even though your delivery is abrasive your intentions are good.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I’ve been ticked off for two days but admit- I’m a prideful jackoss.
> 
> I apologize for calling porn users names. I ask for your forgiveness, brothers and sisters. I’m going to chill on name calling and personal attacks.


I don't have to remind you, but sharing the good news of Christ isn't just harping ad infinitum on one sin ( pick any one ) over and over but sharing the many wonderful things one can have in a relationship with God. 

I believe you also do that but here it can be a limited topic group which may highlight the o e topic. But remember the big picture.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> That's an excellent first step, and I applaud you for making it publicly.
> 
> Will you just stop the name calling, or do you think your actual opinion might moderate? This is not a trick question, I won't bash you if the answer is "I don't think so".
> 
> One of the reasons I am still here is that this forum exposes me to people and opinions to whom I otherwise might not have much access. That is a good thing, since it is too easy to become insulated in a bubble of our own prejudices.


I’m becoming more sympathetic so we’ll see. I think I’ll always believe porn is harmful to men and marriage. I can relate though as someone who once loved it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I’ve been ticked off for two days but admit- I’m a prideful jackoss.
> 
> I apologize for calling porn users names. I ask for your forgiveness, brothers and sisters. I’m going to chill on name calling and personal attacks.


Of course. Thank you for your humility. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

snowbum said:


> For starters, lack of sex is not an issue in my marriage. I have had conversations with my husband, and he says he is happy with the frequency. 3-5 times a week works for us. I understand that for others that's not nearly enough. Everyone's different. As some say, "you do you."
> 
> However, I'm honestly shocked how many people say "get a divorce", get some on the side, have an affair. This seems mainly a male perspective and unfeeling.
> Seems to be the quick fix: get it elsewhere.
> ...


It's true people think men want sex all the time on here. Imagine what it's like to be husband who can't perform sexually. I get treated like I'm from Mars on these marriage websites.


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