# Not sure what to do. Please advise.



## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

I am into the 2nd year of my 2nd marriage. It has been challenging since the word go. After moving to be near my kids to a place neither one of us like, she had to change careers, deal with someone else's kids for the first time and a venomous ex wife, it's been challenging. I tried to tell her how difficult it could be, but I should have known not to bring someone into all of this.

She's become increasingly cold and cut off to me even though we rarely fight now. She hates talking about feelings, especially hers, so I never really know what's going on. She carries the same very calm/quiet attitude when she is content as when she is unhappy, so I don't know the difference. We almost split up last year on several occasions, so I'm a bit paranoid about it now. 

I guess I'm one of those weirdos who likes some closeness, sex and affection in the marriage. These don't seem very important to her. I try to do all I can to be a good husband/father. I help out around the house all the time, cook most of the meals. I pay most of the bills and am financially responsible. I give her compliments on her looks and tell her I love her. I am supportive when she is having a difficult time with something. She is generally supportive back, helpful with the kids and cares about my well-being. However, she acts as if she prefers a strictly platonic relationship or at least could do without sex/affection. The relationship is completely devoid of it, but it's fairly far and few between. Maybe I just happen to be a big fan of giving/receiving affection and she's not, but to me if you don't share that kind of thing, what's the point? 

I confronted her on this a few weeks ago because it was bugging me too much to stay quiet. I was calm and gave her credit for the good things she brings to the marriage, but told her I don't think she is "in-love" with me anymore - or romantically attracted to me. She didn't deny it, but then tried real hard for a couple of days before going back to status quo.

I love her very much and am in love with her. I find her very attractive and want us to be happy and have more fun together. I would do just about anything, but she's told me she doesn't want me to do anything romantic -- not into it. Which sucks, because I actually enjoy doing that stuff.

At times I think I have very valid points, but other times I wonder if I'm just over-reacting to this.

If my kids weren't involved, I'd probably shut the door on this thing or confront it very strongly until it was resolved one way or the other. But the marriage provides financial and family stability to the kids' lives and they need that. I vacillate between just seeing this out at least until they're out of high school and getting out. 

I'm too close to this situation to see it straight. I haven't gotten great feedback from friends on this, so I'm looking for other points of view.

We did try marriage counseling last year when things were really bad and it didn't help too much and she is not interested in trying that again. 

Any helpful/constructive feedback is welcome. I don't mind blunt answers.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I have never really been able to wrap my head around those relationships, where one person seems to be doing all they can, loving, affectionate, helps out with kids, chores, bills, kind to their spouse etc etc, and WHY it is the other spouse isn't responsive to that. 

Now, if you were a person who, didn't help out, who didn't help with bills, kids and chores, wasn't kind to your spouse, verbally abusive etc, etc, then I might couldn't understand how or why the other spouse might not feel close to or in love with or holds resentment towards you and would show those signs of disinterest.

Doesn't seem you are doing any of that. Seems like you are trying to do all the right things, and haven't caused her to feel resentment of any kind, or at least to your knowledge. So with that being said, I'm wondering if you're just with the wrong person, period. OH and BTW, never just stay because kids are involved. IMO it hurts them more in the long run, and its not as beneficial as you might think.


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## rikithemonk (Jun 8, 2011)

How was she when you were dating? Was she sexually similar to how you are now? How do you dress around her? Do you need a make over? People tend to let there hair down at home. Which can be a bad thing. We get dressed up and do our hair for the people at work, but change to sweats and an undershirt when we get home. If they only ever see you dressed down, they tend to loose the interest. 

Just a thought


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Have you cruised around the Men's Clubhouse forum and checked out any of these threads:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

Do you see any of yourself in them?

How old are you and your wife?

Has she ever been married before or have any children? If not, this whole experience with ex-wives and step-kids could be overwhelming to her.

God Bless.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

Gigong, your wife is not into you anymore. She is going through the motions, perhaps feeling stuck in a rutt of a marriage. Not saying you caused this...just letting you know how it sounds to me. I think she emotionally checked out of the marriage a while ago. Her cutting you off sexually shows that, and she does not seem to care if this destresses you or not. She no longer cares for you nor loves you. Perhaps she is still in the game for other reasons, financial, or until she can find a Bigger Better Deal. Perhaps she is biding her time, shopping for the next guy. She sounds selfish, and insensitive. Perhaps your baggage killed it off. One thing is for sure, don't go too long in this mode...shake it out one way or the other because stayin in this soup is not good for the children, not for you, and not for your wife (she's now your new ex-wife).


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

@CallaLily: Thank you for your comments. I'm not really getting it either. If there is something wrong with my attitude, appearance, or whatever ... just let me know and I can change or at least work on it. I can't change if I don't know about.

That thought (are we right for each other?) has crossed my mind many times. I love that she's calm, stable, logical, etc. and she helps me see more clearly how best to deal with the kids and the ex which is great, but she's too quiet, doesn't like meeting new people and I'm just the opposite. I like quiet evenings, but also enjoy going out and great conversation. We seemed really well matched during courtship. We do share a lot of values, not all. But I'm not sure what's going on now. Frankly I want someone who is as into me as I am them and that I feel very comfortable being "me" around that person.

Thanks.




CallaLily said:


> I have never really been able to wrap my head around those relationships, where one person seems to be doing all they can, loving, affectionate, helps out with kids, chores, bills, kind to their spouse etc etc, and WHY it is the other spouse isn't responsive to that.
> 
> Now, if you were a person who, didn't help out, who didn't help with bills, kids and chores, wasn't kind to your spouse, verbally abusive etc, etc, then I might couldn't understand how or why the other spouse might not feel close to or in love with or holds resentment towards you and would show those signs of disinterest.
> 
> Doesn't seem you are doing any of that. Seems like you are trying to do all the right things, and haven't caused her to feel resentment of any kind, or at least to your knowledge. So with that being said, I'm wondering if you're just with the wrong person, period. OH and BTW, never just stay because kids are involved. IMO it hurts them more in the long run, and its not as beneficial as you might think.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

@riki: She was all over me when we were dating and very physical with each other. Seemed like a match to me. I work from home, so I don't always look my best. I am aware of this will at times dress up to look/feel good. One time I was in a suit/tie for a business meeting and left it on the rest of the day so she could see me. She casually noticed it. Honestly, it doesn't seem that what I do helps in the slightest.

Thanks for your feedback!



rikithemonk said:


> How was she when you were dating? Was she sexually similar to how you are now? How do you dress around her? Do you need a make over? People tend to let there hair down at home. Which can be a bad thing. We get dressed up and do our hair for the people at work, but change to sweats and an undershirt when we get home. If they only ever see you dressed down, they tend to loose the interest.
> 
> Just a thought


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not demonstrative. I hate romance. I'd rather have my husband fix a door than get jewelry or perfume from him. He'd rather have cologne than tools. We have different love languages.

Do you really know her? Maybe that's just how she is. Was she always that way?

Try this. Get the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires from marriagebuilders.com (avoid their forums). Ask her to fill it out with you - you both fill out one of each. Then share. It will tell you how you make her unhappy (LBs) so you can stop those things, and what her top ENs are so you can make sure you're meeting them. Hopefully, she'll be willing to read yours and see what SHE can do to make the marriage better. 

Also, what are YOU doing to help her find a job she likes better, since she had to give up what she liked for you. I imagine this is a BIG issue with her. 

Finally, look into getting the book The Five Love Languages. It will explain how different people express and receive love differently. You need to learn what hers is, and hopefully she'll want to learn YOURS, so you both can get better at making each other happy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> @riki: She was all over me when we were dating and very physical with each other. Seemed like a match to me. I work from home, so I don't always look my best. I am aware of this will at times dress up to look/feel good. One time I was in a suit/tie for a business meeting and left it on the rest of the day so she could see me. She casually noticed it. Honestly, it doesn't seem that what I do helps in the slightest.
> 
> Thanks for your feedback!


 I'm guessing that moving her to this place has simply filled her with too much resentment for her to be able to see past it to care about you right now. You need to have an open talk about what your physical (location) future should be.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

I disagree Turnera...it's not his job to find her a new job. That just smacks of a lack of accountability on her part, if she expects that.

I think this is nu mystery. She was into him during courtship, and now for some reason she is not. It is very telling that he alone is distressed by this lack of romance, and she is not. It is exceedingly obvious that she no longer cares for him. Hey, if she is unhappy about moving to a bad place, or not having a job, she has a right to feel sad about that, but to take it out on him the way she is is NEVER acceptable. This shows she is retarded when it comes to relationships, and men. She does not know how to take care of a man, and I mean beyond watching his kids. Sad but I think this guy made a huge mistake getting married to this cold fridged insensitive [email protected] Life is too short to put up with that BS...I've been there done that. My fiance is awesome and I look forward to getting married in April, but if she starts pulling that sheet on me, end game, baby...END GAME...I'm 51 and life is too short to put up with that BS. I give 110% and I expect nearly as much back.

Gigong, here is a last chance Hail Mary strategy for you to try: Buy your wife Dr. Laura's book "The Care and Feeding of Husbands" and ask her to read it. If that book does not turn things around, get the heck out!!!

Too often a woman knows nothing about taking care and living with a man and making him feel happy. He needs to be sexed up big time, respected, appreciated, and supported. We are very simple creatures yet too many women these days are stupid this way. Of course one could say the same thing about most men. You are not happy because you are not sexed up, respected, valued, appreciated.....she gets a big fat F! Do accordingly!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

@Enchantment: Those are good posts! There are times when I've felt that way, being too nice, doing too much. There was a time when I pulled away and almost broke it off and she came back in and tried harder. These days I keep to myself. I don't try too hard, try to maintain a balance. She does her part around the house too. I'm just not a lazy POC. Frankly I don't come to her for much of anything and she seems okay with that and doesn't want to share much with me most days. She is stressed with work and the kids/ex have been tough at times, but we've been at this almost 2 years now and we're in a routine, so it shouldn't be any more of a surprise.

However, the truth is, I'm not happy in my job/career and am in the process of changing that. Perhaps that my improved attitude will change hers. We'll see.

I don't understand why we can't still enjoy and appreciate each other now in the moment. I believe it's my duty as husband to make 1/2 the effort on my part, but it doesn't break down equally with her. 

Perhaps I should just do whatever makes me happy in the moment and if she wants to be a part of it great, if not, then see ya?

I'm 41, she's 34. Her first marriage, no kids or desire for kids. I've often thought that I should be with someone whose been through this before.

Comments?



Enchantment said:


> Have you cruised around the Men's Clubhouse forum and checked out any of these threads:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html
> 
> ...


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> I'm guessing that moving her to this place has simply filled her with too much resentment for her to be able to see past it to care about you right now. You need to have an open talk about what your physical (location) future should be.


It sounds like you're suggesting he treat her like a child, and it's all his fault. Hey, so she hates the new digs....deal with it!! Her handling of it is wrong and disrespectful to him....and so now he has to "talk to her"? I think he needs to talk to a lawyer! She lacks communication skills, basic ones at that, and if that is the case, then this man has NOTHING. It's dead.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Huh? How is caring what she feels treating her like a child? What's missing in their marriage is communication. And, from the sound of it, time together as a couple. You have to nurture a marriage - if you get married and just plop right into raising kids and dealing with crazy exes...well, what's the point?

WHY does she lack communication skills? She was a different person altogether when they were dating. The only thing that changed was she got moved into a place she doesn't like, a house she doesn't like, took on responsibility of kids she never wanted, lost the job she liked to accommodate the marriage, has to deal with his crazy ex...and you wonder why she shut down?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> She's become increasingly cold and cut off to me even though we rarely fight now.


btw, this usually means that she's given up. If she used to fight but now doesn't, she has moved from unhappiness to anger to apathy, and that usually comes when they simply don't care any more.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

@ternera: Thank you for your response. If I thought she hated romance and being open with each other, trust me I never would have proposed. She seemed to like the nice dates I planned back in the day and she loved the romantic proposal, but now she says she's not into that. Why?? Her response is she just isn't. 

We do have different love languages, learned that in counseling. She feels loved if we are in the same room whether or not we are interacting. Mine is more physical (not necessarily sex, but I like it) and verbal. I'm not overgushing with it or need to hear it everyday. I just like the little things that she systematically has stopped doing over time: a kiss goodnight at bed, kiss goodbye in the morning etc. She used to do those things automatically, not anymore. Shoot, I'd be thrilled with a hand on the shoulder now and then.

Btw, she had to sign a contract with work and seemed apprehensive. I told her there are always options and I'd support them. I told her not to feel trapped by this one opportunity, but if you take it, it's YOUR choice. I'll support you, but not if you act unhappy about that choice all the time. I've also helped her with her resume and applied her to jobs with her permission.





turnera said:


> I'm not demonstrative. I hate romance. I'd rather have my husband fix a door than get jewelry or perfume from him. He'd rather have cologne than tools. We have different love languages.
> 
> Do you really know her? Maybe that's just how she is. Was she always that way?
> 
> ...


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Folks, I don't want to start an argument here, please.

The fact is you're both probably right. She's probably lost the love/spark with all the new responsibilities and changes. However, her communication skills aren't the best. She admits this. 

I told her last time we spoke of the relationship that if this is the way it's going to be, it's just not sustainable. At some point I will check out and get out. I don't think she wants this, but she doesn't seem to want to try very hard herself. I get that it's been hard and I don't expect a parade here. Just some effort. Tell me what you need. Tell me what you want. And we can go from there, if it's 50/50. Our relationship started on that principle, but from the emotional/physical side that's no longer true.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you still in counseling?


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Huh? How is caring what she feels treating her like a child? What's missing in their marriage is communication. And, from the sound of it, time together as a couple. You have to nurture a marriage - if you get married and just plop right into raising kids and dealing with crazy exes...well, what's the point?
> 
> WHY does she lack communication skills? She was a different person altogether when they were dating. The only thing that changed was she got moved into a place she doesn't like, a house she doesn't like, took on responsibility of kids she never wanted, lost the job she liked to accommodate the marriage, has to deal with his crazy ex...and you wonder why she shut down?


Read his posts again, because I think you missed some points. Caring is fine, but don't you see? It's all up to him...he is doign all the heavy lifting...that is not fair to him. She is not proactive, and that means something. You will also learn by re-reading his post that she has bad communcative skills, is not proactive in talking to him. She is socially and/or communication wise retarded. No man can make it work with a woman like that! She is making it his sole problem and his sole responsability to solve this pickle. Them moving did not cause this problem....them moving revealed the wife's inability to cope and be a strong mature woman...a problem she had BEFORE the move.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

qigong said:


> Folks, I don't want to start an argument here, please.
> 
> The fact is you're both probably right. She's probably lost the love/spark with all the new responsibilities and changes. However, her communication skills aren't the best. She admits this.
> 
> I told her last time we spoke of the relationship that if this is the way it's going to be, it's just not sustainable. At some point I will check out and get out. I don't think she wants this, but she doesn't seem to want to try very hard herself. I get that it's been hard and I don't expect a parade here. Just some effort. Tell me what you need. Tell me what you want. And we can go from there, if it's 50/50. Our relationship started on that principle, but from the emotional/physical side that's no longer true.


Brother, at age 34, she is pretty much set in her dysfunctionalk ways. All the counseling in the world may not be enough. Go ahead and try a few more times, get her to read "The Care and Feeding of Husbands" but don't throw too much time, and money at this situation...you deserve what I've got...a fiance that loves to talk, communicate, hurts when I hurt, shares my success, empathizes, hates it when we occassionally get disconnected...you deserve my Julie, but she is mine so you should get your own. In closing remember this: LOVE IS NEVER ENOUGH! I hope you get what you want, sir!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

I thought I'd posted this, but now I don't see it, so sorry if this is a repeat.

Folks: I didn't want to start an argument about this, please.

You are both right. It seems she's checked out. I'm sure the big changes may have killed the spark/love, etc., but it is very true, to her own admittance, that she doesn't communicate well. And doesn't like talking about the relationship. From my perspective it seems she doesn't really care that much and is just hanging in there ... for what? I don't know. For as well as I know her, it's a good guess that she'll just ride it out, at least for now.

We do have plans to move back near her family where we lived once the kids graduate. Don't know if it can last that long.

I appreciate your opinions.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

qigong said:


> I thought I'd posted this, but now I don't see it, so sorry if this is a repeat.
> 
> Folks: I didn't want to start an argument about this, please.
> 
> ...


This is not an argument! This is a discussion. Now you're taking on the task of bring "peace" to this thread. This might be a pattern. You take this same load on in your marriage. This is a discussion, and it's ok to disagree. You say we are both right...you bend over backwards to bring peace, a false peace, you take on this job yourself. It's okay to exchange ideas, this is what we called back in college discourse. This is okay.  Brother, I was married twice, both women were like your wife! I got out of the last one, and got myself in counseling to find out why I got involved with two such women...I fixed myself and now I'm not longer vulnerable to their ilk. I got a woman that sexes me up, respects me, talks to me, treats me like gold, and we are both affectionate...like back in college, and I'm 51 and she 45. You need a woman that will take responsability, be proactive with your marriage....but my 51 years and two failed marriages tell me that your situation is not sustainable and to get out...but that's your call, not mine.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

@3rdtime: Thanks. I don't really want to admit it and face that reality, but you're probably right. I will try for a bit longer. See what the future brings. I'll be shocked if she actually reads that book, but it can't hurt to try.

After my first marriage, I always love is never enough. I thought I did my homework on her to understand what I was getting into. Apparently not good enough. Sometimes it seems all women put up a particular front before marriage, then reality sets in as things get comfortable. I'm getting pretty fed up with trying, myself.

Best wishes to you and your fiancee.



ThirdTimeACharm said:


> Brother, at age 34, she is pretty much set in her dysfunctionalk ways. All the counseling in the world may not be enough. Go ahead and try a few more times, get her to read "The Care and Feeding of Husbands" but don't throw too much time, and money at this situation...you deserve what I've got...a fiance that loves to talk, communicate, hurts when I hurt, shares my success, empathizes, hates it when we occassionally get disconnected...you deserve my Julie, but she is mine so you should get your own. In closing remember this: LOVE IS NEVER ENOUGH! I hope you get what you want, sir!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Interesting point. It's nice to hear what you have is out there. After a failed marriage, a failed LTR and another failing marriage - you lose faith in that type of thing. 

So, why did you get involved with those women? (respond privately if you prefer)




ThirdTimeACharm said:


> This is not an argument! This is a discussion. Now you're taking on the task of bring "peace" to this thread. This might be a pattern. You take this same load on in your marriage. This is a discussion, and it's ok to disagree. You say we are both right...you bend over backwards to bring peace, a false peace, you take on this job yourself. It's okay to exchange ideas, this is what we called back in college discourse. This is okay.  Brother, I was married twice, both women were like your wife! I got out of the last one, and got myself in counseling to find out why I got involved with two such women...I fixed myself and now I'm not longer vulnerable to their ilk. I got a woman that sexes me up, respects me, talks to me, treats me like gold, and we are both affectionate...like back in college, and I'm 51 and she 45. You need a woman that will take responsability, be proactive with your marriage....but my 51 years and two failed marriages tell me that your situation is not sustainable and to get out...but that's your call, not mine.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

qigong said:


> Interesting point. It's nice to hear what you have is out there. After a failed marriage, a failed LTR and another failing marriage - you lose faith in that type of thing.
> 
> So, why did you get involved with those women? (respond privately if you prefer)


I got involved with them because I was broken. I was seduced by their neediness, and/or their beauty. I thought wrongfully that I alone could fix it, that all someone needed was enough love and things would fix themselves. The Beatles were dead wrong when they wrote their sappy song "All you Need is Love". It is not real. It is idealistic, and heady in the clouds fantasy. I blame myself for those two failed marriages. Marriage is not a bad thing...our choices are.

You want a proactive talkative chick that likes to have sex often, and respects you, knows how to treat a man, and hates disconnection to the point of engaging you in resolution. I see a lot of myself in your story and so it resonates with me. I know your pain, believe me!! LOL But here's the good news....you are still young enough to be happy and insanely fulfilled...probably with somone else, but before you meet that awesome chick, get yourself out of this mess, get your self in counseling and heal up. You have a hell of a lot of hope, and in the end that really is my message to you!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

So, how willing is your wife to work with you on this? You've only been married a couple of years, yes? Are you willing to throw it away so quickly without exhausting all possibilities? Are you willing to work on this too? Are you in any kind of individual counselling?

And what is the dynamic between your wife, kids, and ex-wife? I think that would be an incredibly difficult situation for someone who has never been married before and has no children. Do you have primary custody of your kids and how old are they?


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> I got involved with them because I was broken. I was seduced by their neediness, and/or their beauty. I thought wrongfully that I alone could fix it, that all someone needed was enough love and things would fix themselves. The Beatles were dead wrong when they wrote their sappy song "All you Need is Love". It is not real. It is idealistic, and heady in the clouds fantasy. I blame myself for those two failed marriages. Marriage is not a bad thing...our choices are.
> 
> You want a proactive talkative chick that likes to have sex often, and respects you, knows how to treat a man, and hates disconnection to the point of engaging you in resolution. I see a lot of myself in your story and so it resonates with me. I know your pain, believe me!! LOL But here's the good news....you are still young enough to be happy and insanely fulfilled...probably with somone else, but before you meet that awesome chick, get yourself out of this mess, get your self in counseling and heal up. You have a hell of a lot of hope, and in the end that really is my message to you!


Thanks dude. I needed to hear that. Bitterness is no fun. Hope rocks! You're right, I do want someone proactive, talkative, gives me respect and good lovin ... and hates disconnection to the point of engaging me in resolution (I especially like that part. That's cool!).

Thanks for sharing!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> So, how willing is your wife to work with you on this? You've only been married a couple of years, yes? Are you willing to throw it away so quickly without exhausting all possibilities? Are you willing to work on this too? Are you in any kind of individual counselling?
> 
> And what is the dynamic between your wife, kids, and ex-wife? I think that would be an incredibly difficult situation for someone who has never been married before and has no children. Do you have primary custody of your kids and how old are they?


She doesn't seem very willing -- hates to talk about the relationship and doesn't say much when we do. When I verbalize a concern, she just stares at me. Yes, 2 years. I'm still willing to try, but that willingness is fading. I'm not in counseling, but not opposed to it either. Just damned expensive and my insurance sucks.

I have secondary custody. Kids over a couple days a week and every other weekend. Tried to work with the ex, but we're now at a point we don't speak. She's taught the kids to be irresponsible, unaccountable and unhealthy - that's what she is. Current wife hates her with good reason - my kids deserve better guidance. My wife has tried to stay out of it and to work together, but ex doesn't think she has any right to help kids with their education or learning responsibility. In a word, it sucks! But our influence is helping them develop well, improved grades, etc.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

qigong said:


> Thanks dude. I needed to hear that. Bitterness is no fun. Hope rocks! You're right, I do want someone proactive, talkative, gives me respect and good lovin ... and hates disconnection to the point of engaging me in resolution (I especially like that part. That's cool!).
> 
> Thanks for sharing!


Just to blow a little bit of the harsh wind of reality here:

"_The grass may look greener on the other side, but believe me, it's just as hard to cut_." ~ Little Richard 

You've listed out some nice traits that you would want in a spouse. I wonder what your wife's list on good traits in a spouse would look like and whether you meet hers?


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Just to blow a little bit of the harsh wind of reality here:
> 
> "_The grass may look greener on the other side, but believe me, it's just as hard to cut_." ~ Little Richard
> 
> You've listed out some nice traits that you would want in a spouse. I wonder what your wife's list on good traits in a spouse would look like and whether you meet hers?


She's pretty, in good shape, smart, good sense of humor, responsible, talkative at times - when in the mood, supportive of me - esp. in relation to the kids or dealing with the ex (I find that quite valuable), clean/neat person, share most values on lifestyle, money, religion.

I have no delusions of grandeur here. I don't think that I'll magically find that right person off the bat ... or maybe even ever. I'd like to think there's hope for the things I've always wanted in a marriage -- those things I was very clear about before getting married. It takes 2 you know. At this rate I have better financial stability, help with the kids, companionship, occasional affection. I was deluded to think marriage could be more than that, otherwise I wouldn't have bought in.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

qigong said:


> She's pretty, in good shape, smart, good sense of humor, responsible, talkative at times - when in the mood, supportive of me - esp. in relation to the kids or dealing with the ex (I find that quite valuable), clean/neat person, share most values on lifestyle, money, religion.
> 
> I have no delusions of grandeur here. I don't think that I'll magically find that right person off the bat ... or maybe even ever. I'd like to think there's hope for the things I've always wanted in a marriage -- those things I was very clear about before getting married. It takes 2 you know. At this rate I have better financial stability, help with the kids, companionship, occasional affection. I was deluded to think marriage could be more than that, otherwise I wouldn't have bought in.


You didn't answer my question. 

My question is what traits would your WIFE look for in a husband (i.e., YOU)?

If you don't know, maybe you should find out, because it could be possible that you may not be living up to her desires, either.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> My question is what traits would your WIFE look for in a husband (i.e., YOU)?
> 
> If you don't know, maybe you should find out, because it could be possible that you may not be living up to her desires, either.


Ah, my bad. I would guess she wants someone who isn't too in touch with emotion (not me), not very sexual or into affection (not me), someone smart, funny, helpful, supportive (me, me, etc.), someone with no debt (definitely not me), makes more money, has no kids or crazy ex. So I guess I'm about 30% of what I perceive she wants.

The problem is getting her to articulate any of these is very difficult. She hates to discuss it and avoids straight answers or even having the discussion. I honestly haven't tried to find out in a long time, so maybe she wants to now, but I would be pretty shocked.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

qigong said:


> Ah, my bad. I would guess she wants someone who isn't too in touch with emotion (not me), not very sexual or into affection (not me), someone smart, funny, helpful, supportive (me, me, etc.), someone with no debt (definitely not me), makes more money, has no kids or crazy ex. So I guess I'm about 30% of what I perceive she wants.
> 
> The problem is getting her to articulate any of these is very difficult. She hates to discuss it and avoids straight answers or even having the discussion. I honestly haven't tried to find out in a long time, so maybe she wants to now, but I would be pretty shocked.


Would she be willing to try something where you work on it together? Such as going through the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and working through the questionnaires that are on the marriagebuilders.com website that would let you both articulate what each of your needs are?

Emotional Needs Questionnaire

Love Busters

What do you think it would take from you to get her to be willing to discuss this? What would you be willing to do to try and get her to that point? Like I said on a different thread today, you may have to shake it up to wake her up.

Best wishes.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> My question is what traits would your WIFE look for in a husband (i.e., YOU)?
> 
> If you don't know, maybe you should find out, because it could be possible that you may not be living up to her desires, either.


That may well be true Enchantment, however even if it were, it still does not excuse his wife from being passive and apathetic about their situation.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Would she be willing to try something where you work on it together? Such as going through the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and working through the questionnaires that are on the marriagebuilders.com website that would let you both articulate what each of your needs are?
> 
> Emotional Needs Questionnaire
> 
> ...


I do appreciate the resources. Frankly it may take me saying that I'm about to check and make other plans. Either we work on this and here's what we can do or we go our own ways. I definitely need to do that before I buy a house with her.

Thirdtime has a point though. It's not all on me to make this thing work. If she's willing to consistently (consistency has been a big problem) meet me half way and make an effort, I'm in and I'll keep trying. There is a tiny glimmer of hope there, but I'm not real excited about the chances. Doesn't mean I'm unwilling to try. However, if I'm trying and she's not then... I'm out.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> That may well be true Enchantment, however even if it were, it still does not excuse his wife from being passive and apathetic about their situation.


Agreed.

But it often takes one person to make that first move and try and break the stalemate, and it sounds like qigong is the one here asking for help, so he gets my vote for making that move. Hope his wife will wake up as a result.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

qigong said:


> I do appreciate the resources. Frankly it may take me saying that I'm about to check and make other plans. Either we work on this and here's what we can do or we go our own ways. I definitely need to do that before I buy a house with her.


Or before you have any children together. 



qigong said:


> Thirdtime has a point though. It's not all on me to make this thing work. If she's willing to consistently (consistency has been a big problem) meet me half way and make an effort, I'm in and I'll keep trying. There is a tiny glimmer of hope there, but I'm not real excited about the chances. Doesn't mean I'm unwilling to try. However, if I'm trying and she's not then... I'm out.


Agree. But someone has to make the first move - the first step, so why not let that be you? If she consistently refuses to participate to try and improve anything, well, then you have your answer. But you're only 2 years in to what sounds like a tough situation for her. I would suggest trying to exhaust all possibilities so you can walk away, if necessary, with a clear conscience.

Best wishes.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Or before you have any children together.


She doesn't want any and I'm done. Mine are 12 & 14.



Enchantment said:


> Agree. But someone has to make the first move - the first step, so why not let that be you? If she consistently refuses to participate to try and improve anything, well, then you have your answer. But you're only 2 years in to what sounds like a tough situation for her. I would suggest trying to exhaust all possibilities so you can walk away, if necessary, with a clear conscience.
> 
> Best wishes.


Fair enough. I've heard the same advice from a friend before, but it seems like I'm kicking a dead horse. I guess we'll find out.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

Oh gosh....good catch!!!! DON'T have children, nor buy a house....I did both of those....stupid me, still paying the price!! Please learn from my foolishness!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> Oh gosh....good catch!!!! DON'T have children, nor buy a house....I did both of those....stupid me, still paying the price!! Please learn from my foolishness!


LOL!! :smthumbup:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> The problem is getting her to articulate any of these is very difficult. She hates to discuss it and avoids straight answers or even having the discussion. I honestly haven't tried to find out in a long time, so maybe she wants to now, but I would be pretty shocked.


The way you approach this is to sit down with her and tell her 'this isn't working for me. I'm not happy. You don't seem to be happy. But I don't want to give up this marriage. I know you don't like to get into these things, but we're going to have to if we're going to stay married. I have these questionnaires I found from a site that helps people get back on track. We can fill them out, and then I can learn what's going on that's making you unhappy, so I can change it. Will you?' (as you put them in her hands)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> That may well be true Enchantment, however even if it were, it still does not excuse his wife from being passive and apathetic about their situation.


 We only have his side of the story. It's just as likely that she's so full of resentment and disappointment in this marriage that she sees no reason to try any more.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> We only have his side of the story. It's just as likely that she's so full of resentment and disappointment in this marriage that she sees no reason to try any more.


Yes, very true!! On such internet sites, it is safel assumed that our responses are based only on what we were told by the OP. For all we know, he beats the hell out of her with a loaded gun, and blows cigar smoke rings in her face. But I do get what you mean.....lol


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> Oh gosh....good catch!!!! DON'T have children, nor buy a house....I did both of those....stupid me, still paying the price!! Please learn from my foolishness!


 Having your children was stupid?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> Yes, very true!! On such internet sites, it is safel assumed that our responses are based only on what we were told by the OP. For all we know, he beats the hell out of her with a loaded gun, and blows cigar smoke rings in her face. But I do get what you mean.....lol


Well, what I read was that she moved from where she lived, gave up the job she liked and replaced it with one she hates, moved to a place she didn't like and a house she didn't like, and immediately started taking care of tweens/teens that weren't hers, and had to deal with a crazy ex to boot. 

Sounds like a great recipe for happiness. My god, she should be _grateful_ he took her in!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> The way you approach this is to sit down with her and tell her 'this isn't working for me. I'm not happy. You don't seem to be happy. But I don't want to give up this marriage. I know you don't like to get into these things, but we're going to have to if we're going to stay married. I have these questionnaires I found from a site that helps people get back on track. We can fill them out, and then I can learn what's going on that's making you unhappy, so I can change it. Will you?' (as you put them in her hands)


This is a very good way to put it, thanks. 

I get that you're only getting one side of the story, but let me be clear. I was VERY up-front about my situation and my baggage. I gave her several alternatives to stay where she was. In fact, when I first decided to move and found a way to do so, I ended it because I felt it was unfair to ask her to leave those things and take on so much in my life that's not hers. She wanted to stay with me and move with me anyway. I did not coerce her or guilt her into this. It was "her" decision to stay and move with me. I had to be near my kids and that was non-negotiable and I fully understand if she didn't want to get into that. Furthermore, the front door is not guarded. If she is that unhappy, she can always leave of her own volition. My opinion is love it or leave it, in this case me.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Having your children was stupid?


Yes, having children with the wrong person, knowing up front that that person would not be a good mate is stupid. 

If my children were born from anyone else, would I love them any less? Of course not.

Had I not married my terrible first wife and instead had children with someone else, I would love those kids the same, not more, not less.

I just old my 24 year old daughter that if she married her loser BF, that the worse thing she could do was to have children with him. He's 28, lives with mommy and daddy and has no job...so yea, children in that future union would be stupid to have.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, I have no doubt you were totally up front. What matters, though, is what happened AFTER she got there. But if you're giving off the same love it or leave it vibe to HER as you are to ME, it's a safe bet she has turned OFF. You acknowledge how hard the situation is, yet we're not hearing what actually transpired after she got there. And what your contributions toward helping her acclimate, aside from the job search. Think in terms of Love Busters and Emotional Needs; how many times a day is she getting LB'd? How many times are her ENs being met? Note that I'm not telling you that YOU have to be the only one doing it, but for NOW, she is in withdrawal and most likely making plans to leave you. So if you DO want her to stay, it behooves you to work a little harder - for now - to get underneath what's going on in her head. Only if she pulls out of withdrawal can she start meeting YOUR needs again, because people in withdrawal are just that - withdrawn, in self-protect mode.


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Well, what I read was that she moved from where she lived, gave up the job she liked and replaced it with one she hates, moved to a place she didn't like and a house she didn't like, and immediately started taking care of tweens/teens that weren't hers, and had to deal with a crazy ex to boot.
> 
> Sounds like a great recipe for happiness. My god, she should be _grateful_ he took her in!


Victim talk. 

Did he put a gun to her head? Did he force her? Sadly you don't see that she signed up for this and she has the obligation to help him make it work.

She is playing up the victim, the martyr, and you drank her kool-aid.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nope. I just got tired of men expecting women to suck it up and quit *****ing when they are unhappy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree that she went into it with eyes wide open. But SOMETHING there, once she got there, was too much to deal with.


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## oneonone (Sep 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> My question is what traits would your WIFE look for in a husband (i.e., YOU)?
> 
> If you don't know, maybe you should find out, because it could be possible that you may not be living up to her desires, either.


:iagree::iagree: Just what I was thinking. Another good book to check out is "How We Love" dave stoop

And if you haven't already, set some boundaries with that unhealthy ex.


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## oneonone (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Nope. I just got tired of men expecting women to suck it up and quit *****ing when they are unhappy.


:iagree: BIGTIME


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## oneonone (Sep 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Or before you have any children together.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hugely agree. I am married just 1 year and 7 months. We are struggling too. Perhaps even similar issues. But I have no problem communicating. My husband is the quiet one here who won't say what his needs are, etc...But can say that when I am annoyed with him b/c he pays the bills late and doesn't tell me, (b/c he manages money badly and won't talk about it) that I pull away physically and sexually. Not to punish him but b/c I am scared inside. At the root of anger is resentment and fear. Getting her to talk is certainly key. I also have a lack of attraction to my husband at times and I admit this to him...I do tell him I get tired of ALWAYS seeing you in tee shirts and shorts. When we dated you took the effort to dress nicely like a polo shirt and khaki's and you wore cologne b/c you knew I appreciated it and it turned me on, and you put lotion on your psoriasis (arms and knees ) so your skin would be softer to be close to me. NOw that we are married he does none of that. And yes, it affects my attraction, and I shut down, b/c I am tired of not being heard. None of this is prolly your issue. It sounds like you are quite romantic and therefore go the extra mile. It is just an example of what can cause a woman to shut down and different they when dating (I was more passionate when we dated, but then we didn't share money, and he made an attempt to look good and smell good).


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## oneonone (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> We only have his side of the story. It's just as likely that she's so full of resentment and disappointment in this marriage that she sees no reason to try any more.


I think there is something to this observation. I'd love to hear her side.


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## oneonone (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> well, what i read was that she moved from where she lived, gave up the job she liked and replaced it with one she hates, moved to a place she didn't like and a house she didn't like, and immediately started taking care of tweens/teens that weren't hers, and had to deal with a crazy ex to boot.
> 
> Sounds like a great recipe for happiness. My god, she should be _grateful_ he took her in!


lmao


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## oneonone (Sep 1, 2011)

WOW, I just read the marriage busters info and questionaire someone suggested on that marriagebuilders.com site and it was really right on...I think that'd be worth taking a look at, getting your wife to answer hers might give you the insight you are looking for.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

G I thought I would weigh in to give my prospective for your consideration. I think you need to reframe the way you are thinking. 

It is not surprising that your wife shut down. What she did for you was monumental given that she coukd have married a man without the baggage that you brought into the relationship. You seem to have expected a great deal of her. You expect her to be a good mother to for your kids and she has done that, she also contributes to the household income and the support of your children, she moved so you could be near your kids, she is expected to deal effectively with your ex so you could see your kids. 

You married her expecting her to fill many roles for you. It would not be a stretch to think that she may feel that she is giving you much more than you give her especially if you minimize what she has done for you. The way i see it, she is not getting enough out of this deal and she could not possibly have predicted how her life would be. This is probably not how she envisioned a marriage.

It is also possible that she feels that you married her because you needed a mother for your kids and not because you loved her. I may be wrong but it is difficult to ignore these possibilities given that you yourself emphasize her suitability to fit into your life. She has given a great deal and I wonder if you to realize that. What does she get to fill her love bank? Indeed love is not enough, that is true for you both. 

She appears to have nothing more to give you. She is doing the best she can with what she has. I think that considering getting this dr laura book shows how far off the mark you are. She can't do more for you she is the one in need. Can you consider that she is giving enough under very trying circumstances and not getting enough back? You expect her to read this book to do more for you? 

Try and forget yourself and what you need and want and step in her shoes for a while. She was not eased into the relationship she was dropped kicked into it. I dont think she got the support that she needed to manage. 

I also think you should consider your plans to wait to divorce after your kids are in HS. So you consider it OK to use her for your kids until it's convenient for you and your kids to get rid of her. Dosen't that say something of your attitude towards her? I feel so badly for her and hope she will reach a point where she gets out before you decide she is not useful for you. Women check out for a long time before they reach the point where they walk. 

She is also vulnerable to an exit affair. Your position may not as strong as you think. Dont be so sure that she will not leave and she will allow you to use her until it is convenient for you.. Why not do the honorable thing and divorce her now so she can find someone who loves and appreciates her kind, responsible, giving and passionate. I think with your attitude she will not be any more passionate with you than she is now may even less in the future. You can get a woman to meet your sexual needs in addition to being a mother for your kids when you divorce. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThirdTimeACharm (Sep 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> G I thought I would weigh in to give my prospective for your consideration. I think you need to reframe the way you are thinking.
> 
> It is not surprising that your wife shut down. What she did for you was monumental given that she coukd have married a man without the baggage that you brought into the relationship. You seem to have expected a great deal of her. You expect her to be a good mother to for your kids and she has done that, she also contributes to the household income and the support of your children, she moved so you could be near your kids, she is expected to deal effectively with your ex so you could see your kids.
> 
> ...


Catherine, you give this guys wife full license to shut down...this advise only encourages her to continue acting like a 12 year old child. There is NO reason for her to stop trying, none, zero, zip, that was given to us in this thread. She is passively agressive and knows how to make this man hurt, and it is working. Women like you come along and justify her very bad behavior and this advise makes this situation even worse. You make it sound like she was kidnapped and is being held hostage. She signed up so the right thing to do is help this poor man make things better.

This wife should be the one to feel glad that she has a man that is putting up with her immature behavior...so you see you got this backwards, upside down. Perhaps you and this wife should both read Dr. Laura's book "The Care and Feeding of Husbands"...it seems you have a lot to learn on this topic.

His attitude is not wrong...YOURS IS! You want him to feel bad because he has sexual needs? You want him to feel bad for being a man? He is there wanting to make things better for her but you choose not to see this. I'm so glad my fiancee does not share your opinion on this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> There is NO reason for her to stop trying, none, zero, zip, that was given to us in this thread.


I just gave a handful but you seem to be a woman-hater, on his third wife, so you're not interested in listening, if it means having the man have any fault. All you want to do - and the OP is all too willing to listen to you - is blame HER. And that's fine, if all he wants is someone to feel sorry for him. He can do that all the way to the courthouse when she divorces him.



> She is passively agressive and knows how to make this man hurt, and it is working.


Please do tell me how you know she is passive aggressive. All we know about her is that she no longer participates in the marrage except at a superficial level. There are dozens of books about why women leave men; maybe you should read some of them to learn how marriages end. 



> She signed up so the right thing to do is help this poor man make things better.


She is working full time. She is taking care of his kids. She is taking care of his house, cooking his food, doing his laundry and whatever else. She is fielding off his crazy ex. The only thing I see that she is NOT doing is remaining affectionate with him. Tell me again how she is not 'making things better'?



> Perhaps you and this wife should both read Dr. Laura's book "The Care and Feeding of Husbands"...it seems you have a lot to learn on this topic.


You keep bringing up this book, so I can only assume that it tells women to turn in June Cleaver and be damn glad they got that hunk of a man coming home to her every night, right?

You know, we can commiserate with him all he wants, if that's all he wants, and apparently it is, because you're the only one he's agreeing with. But he SAYS he wants to save his marriage. We are giving him insight into what's wrong with his marriage, and at least 50% of the problems AND the responsibility in the marriage belong to HIS side. He can either try to figure out WHY she has shut down, or he can just wait til she gets completely fed up and leaves him. Or, he can be macho man and just kick her out since, hey, she's not giving him sex, and what's a wife for, right?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ThirdTimeACharm said:


> Catherine, you give this guys wife full license to shut down...this advise only encourages her to continue acting like a 12 year old child. There is NO reason for her to stop trying, none, zero, zip, that was given to us in this thread. She is passively agressive and knows how to make this man hurt, and it is working. Women like you come along and justify her very bad behavior and this advise makes this situation even worse. You make it sound like she was kidnapped and is being held hostage. She signed up so the right thing to do is help this poor man make things better.
> 
> This wife should be the one to feel glad that she has a man that is putting up with her immature behavior...so you see you got this backwards, upside down. Perhaps you and this wife should both read Dr. Laura's book "The Care and Feeding of Husbands"...it seems you have a lot to learn on this topic.
> 
> His attitude is not wrong...YOURS IS! You want him to feel bad because he has sexual needs? You want him to feel bad for being a man? He is there wanting to make things better for her but you choose not to see this. I'm so glad my fiancee does not share your opinion on this.


Let me give you a little advice. 

You have had an uncommon number of failed relationships and you seem to blame it on the women in your relationships. Have you ever looked at your role? If not, the odds are that when the honeymoon period wears off, your anger will be directed towards you new love and you will get the same result you have always gotten - a failed relationship. 

My advice to G is sound and realistic. If he follows your line of reasoning, he will definitely lose her. Your assessment that she should feel lucky to have him is way off the mark. 

She is young, no kids, supports herself and he has two kids, stuck geographically, crazy ex, needs a woman to be a mother to his kids, and needs her salary. He is lucky that she took this on and he should tread carefully because he is highly unlikely to find a woman of her character who will take on his baggage. 

This is no time for him to make demands it is time for him to step back be realistic and appreciate and value of what he has. The problem seems to be that he overestimates his value and underestimates hers. That is what you are doing and you are advising him to devalue her more. I'd like to see that work. 

He should thank her every day for what she has done for him. He should go back to therapy by himself if necessary to fix his attitude. He should bend over backwards to meet her needs and to relieve her of the burden that he has placed on her. 

If you think reading that book is going to suddenly make her realize that she needs to prostrated herself at his male alter, you need to get a grip. She has lost her sexual attraction to him and where is his leverage? 

If he divorces her it will be a relief to her and a problem for him because he will have to find a replacement. Women like her are not looking for a man who needs them for a mother and financial support and a little sex thrown in. 

He needs her but he is still under the impression that he has got all the cards. She has got the get out of jail card she is just has not reached her tipping point yet. If he hands her that book and makes more demands that should do it.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Let me give you a little advice.
> 
> You have had an uncommon number of failed relationships and you seem to blame it on the women in your relationships. Have you ever looked at your role? If not, the odds are that when the honeymoon period wears off, your anger will be directed towards you new love and you will get the same result you have always gotten - a failed relationship.
> 
> ...


To ALL:

Okay, I'm just back from a nice weekend. I took my wife out of town to get away, relax and blow off steam ... had a great time. (so yes, to the naysayers out there, I do try, I do care and I don't expect her to do everything ... we didn't talk anything serious, just time to decompress and have some fun)

Now, obviously I need to clear the air here. I reached out to this site hoping for some objective advise because I'm too close to the situation to evaluate it properly. I don't expect everyone to automatically agree with me. I believe there are always ways for me to improve. Some of the advice and comments were constructive and helpful. For those of you who made those suggestions, thank you!! The rest is just based on assumptions, bullcrap and personal feelings. If you have a question about me or her, ASK ME. I will give you the most honest answer and to the best of my knowledge. 

Maybe at times, my attitude sucks. I'm not perfect, and I make mistakes all the time. I also own up to them. I don't think for second that she bought in to the greatest, luckiest situation -- I know it's not -- I never said it is. I even advised her against it!! I knew it would be tough. Neither one of us thought that the kids' mom would be so difficult. I made the mistake of believing things that she (my ex) had said and thought she grew up more. 

Let me set one thing straight. I don't NEED her to be a mother. My kids have a mother, even if she does a bunch of crap I don't agree with (like going out to eat instead of paying her bills and not giving the kids better structure or a clean home). I never expected her to be a mom and have told her as much. I appreciate the help and support she provides (and I show this appreciation regularly), especially with education and that the kids see how a couple should treat each other. Maybe things aren't very loving and we're not as connected as I'd like us to be, but we treat each other with kindness and mutual respect. I only reason I said to hang on until the kids graduate because they've had enough life disruptions already. Their mom has had 2 men move in and move out. I'd like for them to have some stability, and maybe along the way my wife and I figure this thing I out and I learn to be more patient. 

Let me also be very clear. All I want is a better connection between the 2 of us. I am willing to do whatever it takes - I'll do 80%+ of the work in the relationship if that's what's needed right now, but I have to know that she really wants to be in this "before" we buy a house together, "before" it goes on and on if it's not what she really wants and we both go on unhappy but trying to pretend like we're not. She told me that she wasn't happy and wasn't sure she wanted to be married to me almost a year ago. This went on for a few months and it ripped me in two. I asked her what I could do to make it better and eventually she told me she didn't want to talk about our relationship anymore and for me not to worry about it so much. When I finally couldn't do it anymore, I started checking out emotionally. She sensed this and started trying, took a week off to visit family/friends (I was sure it was really over then), but she came back and recommitted. It took me a while to get used to the idea (I was convinced it was over), but we've been slowly doing better since up until recently. Recently she's pulled back again and stopped doing many (not all) of the little things to show affection/love. So perhaps I'm over-reacting to the whole thing (because I am guilty of that at times) and she's just really stressed at work and going back to school part time. Or maybe she's done and she doesn't see a way out. The point is I don't know and last time I asked her how she was feeling about me, I didn't get a straight answer.

If she's really that unhappy but would be happy if not in this marriage and tells me that straight up. Yes, it would break my heart, but I would help her pack. I want her to be happy, whether it's with me or not. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me, who can't show love ... what's the point?? 

I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't have any delusions that I am in some power position or that women are just lined up to carry my baggage. Quite the opposite. If this marriage does end, I could very well die alone, I don't know. So quit speaking for me, thanks! I can speak just fine for myself. That goes for everyone!

The bottom line is even though I'm confused and very frustrated, I still love her very much. All I really want is for us both to be happy together, to be as connected as we possibly can and to be there for each other as best we can. I understand that it may not be equal all the time. But, I can't go on blithely without communication. If there is something I can do, anything, for God's sake, please tell me and I will earnestly do the best I possibly can. If she tells me she is spent and giving all she can right now and even if she says we need a moratorium on sex for a few months until she regains her bearings, I'll do my best to support that. However, if she says that she's quite satisfied with a mostly platonic relationship, with little/no communication about "us", I can't support that. If that's the best she'll ever be able to give in this marriage, then maybe I'm destined to be alone for while or longer. 

On the next weekend we don't have the kids I plan to sit her down and tell her from the heart how I feel. That I want her to be happy and want a better connection with her. And I will ask her how she thinks that's possible and what I can do. I will ask her to take those questionnaires with me. I'll ask her to be brutally honest with me regardless of how it might make me feel. I hope she has the courage to be honest with her own feelings and with me, lest I get the typical response "I don't know." 

If anyone has anything CONSTRUCTIVE to add, I'm very grateful and I'm all ears. If you feel you must respond with sarcasm and judgmental tones (vs. me or my wife), don't. If you're not sure about something, ask me. 

This is about if and how my wife and I can make our marriage better.. It's NOT about who is right or wrong, who has done more for whom or just another reason to fuel the man vs. woman battle.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In other words, "Catherine hit the bullseye and I really don't like how it feels".


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> If anyone has anything CONSTRUCTIVE to add, I'm very grateful and I'm all ears.


If she used to fight but now doesn't, she has moved from unhappiness to anger to apathy, and that usually comes when they simply don't care any more. She went into the marriage with eyes wide open. But SOMETHING there, once she got there, was too much to deal with.

Get the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires from marriagebuilders.com (avoid their forums). Ask her to fill it out with you - you both fill out one of each. Then share. It will tell you how you make her unhappy (LBs) so you can stop those things, and what her top ENs are so you can make sure you're meeting them. Hopefully, she'll be willing to read yours and see what SHE can do to make the marriage better. 

Also, do more to help her find a job she likes better, since she had to give up what she liked for you. 

Get the book The Five Love Languages. It will explain how different people express and receive love differently. You need to learn what hers is, and hopefully she'll want to learn YOURS, so you both can get better at making each other happy.

I'm guessing that moving her to this place has simply filled her with too much resentment for her to be able to see past it to care about you right now. You need to have an open talk and find solutions and point out to her that you don't see the marriage surviving - make it clear she's free to leave if she wants to but that you don't want her to, and you want to find out what's wrong so you can fix it.

Think in terms of Love Busters and Emotional Needs; how many times a day is she getting LB'd? How many times are her ENs being met? Note that I'm not telling you that YOU have to be the only one doing it, but for NOW, she is in withdrawal and most likely making plans to leave you. So if you DO want her to stay, it behooves you to work a little harder - for now - to get underneath what's going on in her head. Only if she pulls out of withdrawal can she start meeting YOUR needs again, because people in withdrawal are just that - withdrawn, in self-protect mode.


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## rikithemonk (Jun 8, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Let me give you a little advice.
> 
> You have had an uncommon number of failed relationships and you seem to blame it on the women in your relationships. Have you ever looked at your role? If not, the odds are that when the honeymoon period wears off, your anger will be directed towards you new love and you will get the same result you have always gotten - a failed relationship.
> 
> ...


Actually, I agree to a point that she has given up much. However this doesn't give her the green light to pull away and shut down. She needs to talk with him and share what the underling problem is so that it can begin being repaired.

How can you read this guys posts and think he feels that he has all the cards? This isn't some ****y Alpha guy trying to keep her in the kitchen. He comes across as milk toast. The neediness, the fear, and the lonelyness is extremely evident. This is a man who is terrified that he is loosing his woman. 

What we have here is a woman angry about her choices, who has shut down completely and a guy terrified of loosing her following her around and making things worse. 

Its my bet that this is all because of the move. It most likely separated her from her friends and family. Basically she may have lost her support structure. But since she isn't talking, all I can do is guess.


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## rikithemonk (Jun 8, 2011)

qigong said:


> To ALL:
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone has anything CONSTRUCTIVE to add, I'm very grateful and I'm all ears.


My advice, Like I said earlier, help her get a job she enjoys. Stop pushing her so much. Sometimes we can try too hard, and I'm getting the feeling that this may apply here. You cant change her. Work on you. Get in shape, Update your wardrobe and improve your appearance. Get a hobby that gets you out of the house more. This helps you with distractions. Spend time with friends.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong, are you spending 10 to 15 hours a week with her, just the two of you? This is essential for two people to stay in love and be happy - you have to feed the marriage with this sort of time. Could be in small or large doses, like a cup of coffee together each morning, or could be day trips.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> If she used to fight but now doesn't, she has moved from unhappiness to anger to apathy, and that usually comes when they simply don't care any more. She went into the marriage with eyes wide open. But SOMETHING there, once she got there, was too much to deal with.


I think it was more than she expected/bargained for. Me too for that matter. It was a tough transition for me as well. I don't like living here either ... it's boring and basically sucks. We had mountains and beaches, none of that now, though we are slowly finding some mini-oases. The ex was worse than expected and the job situation isn't her favorite, but she's under a contract now for 2 years. I encouraged her not to take it, b/c I thought it would make her more stressed/unhappy.



turnera said:


> Get the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires from marriagebuilders.com (avoid their forums). Ask her to fill it out with you - you both fill out one of each. Then share. It will tell you how you make her unhappy (LBs) so you can stop those things, and what her top ENs are so you can make sure you're meeting them. Hopefully, she'll be willing to read yours and see what SHE can do to make the marriage better.


Got 'em. I feel she may participate in the LB, not sure about the EN, but we'll see



turnera said:


> Also, do more to help her find a job she likes better, since she had to give up what she liked for you.


See above. I'd have to buy her out of a contract for which she is receiving free education. That money is for a house down payment



turnera said:


> Get the book The Five Love Languages. It will explain how different people express and receive love differently. You need to learn what hers is, and hopefully she'll want to learn YOURS, so you both can get better at making each other happy.


Very good suggestion to learn more about this. Her love language is more Time Together, mine is Physical Affection (or whatever the book terms are ... we touched on this in marriage counseling last year)



turnera said:


> I'm guessing that moving her to this place has simply filled her with too much resentment for her to be able to see past it to care about you right now. You need to have an open talk and find solutions and point out to her that you don't see the marriage surviving - make it clear she's free to leave if she wants to but that you don't want her to, and you want to find out what's wrong so you can fix it.


You're probably right. I'm hoping I can get her to open up. She may be thinking about leaving, but it's also very possible she's just accepted things for now and this is the new status quo. She hasn't talked about leaving for a long time and hasn't really expressed a lot of unhappiness or even complained quite as much. But I don't really know for sure which it is.

I reacted to her shutting down as a clue and it felt very familiar and through my paranoia I may be over-reacting to this whole thing. I like your suggestions and the approach. I need to get to the bottom of this, but approach it in a non-threatening way, so we can have an open discussion.

Riki is right, I am scared to lose someone I love and care about very much. Perhaps the best approach is to let go of the fear and get to the bottom of this. It's adding unnecessary tension to our situation and it will manifest badly if I don't snuff it out.

She could tell me she doesn't love me anymore, or she could tell me she's just stressed right now. She's extremely hard to read. When she is content and unhappy, it looks/sounds the same for the most part. It's good and bad. She's not dramatic at all (which is awesome), but more clues to when she's not happy would be helpful. I can't fix what I don't know.



turnera said:


> Think in terms of Love Busters and Emotional Needs; how many times a day is she getting LB'd? How many times are her ENs being met? Note that I'm not telling you that YOU have to be the only one doing it, but for NOW, she is in withdrawal and most likely making plans to leave you. So if you DO want her to stay, it behooves you to work a little harder - for now - to get underneath what's going on in her head. Only if she pulls out of withdrawal can she start meeting YOUR needs again, because people in withdrawal are just that - withdrawn, in self-protect mode.


Thank you for your time and thoughts on this. My attitude and approach do need improvement. These discussions have helped me to gain some needed perspective. I DO want her to stay if she also wants that. I do get that it will take extra effort to help her open up more and hopefully she will.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

rikithemonk said:


> Actually, I agree to a point that she has given up much. However this doesn't give her the green light to pull away and shut down. She needs to talk with him and share what the underling problem is so that it can begin being repaired.


Yes, exactly!



rikithemonk said:


> Its my bet that this is all because of the move. It most likely separated her from her friends and family. Basically she may have lost her support structure. But since she isn't talking, all I can do is guess.


That's pretty much the main thing, yes. If it's anything else, I'm unaware.



rikithemonk said:


> My advice, Like I said earlier, help her get a job she enjoys. Stop pushing her so much. Sometimes we can try too hard, and I'm getting the feeling that this may apply here. You cant change her. Work on you. Get in shape, Update your wardrobe and improve your appearance. Get a hobby that gets you out of the house more. This helps you with distractions. Spend time with friends.


She's under a contract now of her own volition, so not much I can do about that now. I haven't been pushing her or trying too hard to my knowledge. When she started shutting down, I backed off even more. If anything my attitude got more distant and apathetic and I didn't talk to her as much. What I think she wants is appreciation for her especially as it relates to being here and helping with the kids (schedule, homework, teaching responsibility, etc.). I know I can't change her, that's up to her. I want to her to be happy and me to be happy and to support those things. I work out all the time, I'm quite keen on health and fitness, though not obsessed with it. 

I am currently looking for a new job myself. This will be a boon for me when I find the right position/fit. I'm sick of working from home ... I'm way too social for that. As a result I will have to dress better for work. Pretty lax dress code now ;-).

I don't dress sloppy everyday, but I could look sharper on a more regular basis. The hobby out of the house is a good suggestion. I play guitar, but do that at home. I have a couple of ideas to pursue there.

I spend time with friends about once/month. It's tough to find time outside of family and spouse. Kids schedule in the Fall is a bear.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> qigong, are you spending 10 to 15 hours a week with her, just the two of you? This is essential for two people to stay in love and be happy - you have to feed the marriage with this sort of time. Could be in small or large doses, like a cup of coffee together each morning, or could be day trips.


We spend about 6-18 hours together depending on the week. It's less on weekends we have the kiddos. We'll spend at least 30-60m together each night, even when we have the kids. Coffee talk on most Sat/Sun mornings. Menu, grocery list/shopping on Saturdays (not breath-taking but something we usually do together). We will go out on a date at least once a month, sometimes twice just depends on what's going on and how we're feeling. Most Friday nights we hang out and have a drink together and relax at home.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow, that is WAY TOO LITTLE TIME together, qigong, if you don't have the kids full time! Especially this soon into a marriage! Even at 18 hours, that's maybe 6 hours each weekend day and 1 hour each weekday? What's going on the rest of the time?

I'm sure she feels kind of like a mail-order bride at this point - all business, no fun. I'll give you my list I hand out to people to get their creative juices flowing - use them or find something else, but start SPENDING THAT TIME TOGETHER! And MORE especially if her love language is Time Together! Yeegads!

Oh, before I give you the list, one other thing to consider. If she's that quiet, it's possible that she suffers from Toxic Shame. It renders the person quiet, practically mute, if stress comes along. They just retreat into a shell and share NOTHING with noONE. Look it up and see if she has any of the symptoms. I read a great book on it I can recommend if you feel it may apply. I ask because I have it, and if I were thrust into a similar situation, I would be exactly like her.

Read a book together
Take turns picking out a movie to watch
Bring out the board games, at least once a week
Start a solitaire club with some neighbors or friends, play solitaire against each other one night a week or month
Start gardening together
Grow herbs/vegetables/fruits
Take walks
Start a sport together; take classes at a community college, such as racquetball or volleyball
Get bikes and start riding bikes together
Sign up for an MS 150 and train for the bike ride all year
Plan some day trips, start taking one every month
Try out one new restaurant every week, take turns choosing and surprising the other with it
Go to bookstore and get a book like “52 great invitations to sex” in which you both have 26 invitations for a special evening to invite the other one, and you set it up, give the other the invitation (included in book) and then put on the evening (Note: I’ve learned this is temporarily out of print, but VERY valuable to fixing relationships, so try to find a used one)
Join an online gaming community together (but don’t get addicted!)
Buy a Wii or Guitar Hero and play together
Give each other foot rubs
Take massage class together and practice giving each other massages
Go back to school together
Get a pet, take it to obedience school and learn to train it (if applicable)
Join a neighborhood dinner club or other club
Volunteer together
Join a church or get more involved in your church
Take a cooking class together and take turns cooking for each other
Go to HGTV.com and pick out a project to do for your house together
Take free classes at Home Depot on how to fix something at your house
Start a business together
Organize a block party
Organize a family reunion
Start working with a financial planner or learn about stocks together
Take dancing lessons together; if you like it, start entering in competitions
Go online for your city and look up 'activities' and 'family' and maybe even 'free' if your city is big enough; subscribe to those websites and go there every month to look for upcoming activities you can all do together; you can find plays, music events, art things, sports things, picnics, etc.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

G I did not mean to lay this all at your door. I just meant to point out the real difficulties of the problems for both of you. Your marriage has all of the elements that cause 2nd marriages to fail - meddling ex's, pre-teen and teens kids, over burdened financial situation, overburdened step parent and dwindling resources taken to preserve the primary unit - the relationship between you and your wife. 

My perception was with your original post and it remains so with this post - you sound as if you are angry impatient and dismissive of your wife's difficulty. 

This may be because you don't really understand how difficult her position is and you don't seem to appreciate how much she gives. I may be very wrong but it just seems that way and I thought it would help to point it out for your consideration. 

I say this because you accepted the advice that you need to make more demands on her but you are angry at being advised to back off and be more appreciate of what you have. Somehow, she is not getting enough out of this relationship. 

She is not likely to tell you that she has given up a lot for you. I would imagine that it is quite obvious that she has and that she is waiting for you to acknowledge that in a sincere and heartfelt way on your own. 

Therein may lay the problem, you may not be seeing things from her standpoint but from the well of your rather considerable needs for your children and the need to provide them with a stable home. 

Why does that make you so angry? You are a good man and an excellent father of course you are looking out for your kids. I may have been too hyperbolic but I did it to counter some of the previous posters who were advising you to push her for more. I just think under the precarious circumstances of the union, that would not bear fruit. 

A realistic look at what you are both bringing to the table and a sense of real gratitude with no attitude seems to be in order. Being a step parent is a thankless job. As you say, she is not their mother but she is the quality of woman who feels responsible. Many men and woman have been in her situation. 

Their role as breadwinner, nurturer, protector to someone else's kids needs to be expressly acknowledged. It does not come naturally - the step parent gets the blame when things don't go well but the parent gets the accolades when things work out well. 

My intension was not to make you angry but to make you think. Given the tone of your post, you may come off to her as lacking in understanding, appreciation and humility to acknowledge when someone has done you a good turn. 

I don't know of course but it is certainly worth consideration. What would you have to lose by questioning your feelings of anger towards her and examining how her needs are being met. If the deficit is obvious in the give-and-take of the relationship and if she has attempted to tell you already and you reacted with anger and impatience then it may be an area for improvement. 

Just saying.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> If the deficit is obvious in the give-and-take of the relationship and if she has attempted to tell you already and you reacted with anger and impatience then it may be an area for improvement.
> 
> Just saying.


That brings up a good point. One of the single most common things to happen in a marriage is when the woman approaches the man, to tell him something about how she's feeling - as woman are wont to do - and, because he's a man, he has no clue how to understand what she's saying, CARE about what she's saying, or even know how to respond. So he does nothing. Or does the wrong thing. And she learns that it not only does no good to say what she needs to say, but that it HURTS to say it because she gets rebuffed, or ignored, or ridiculed, or told to suck it up, or treated like a guy. So the next time, she says nothing. 

Not saying YOU did any of this, G, but it's worth considering if maybe this may have caused her to withdraw and not be willing to share anything.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> G I did not mean to lay this all at your door. I just meant to point out the real difficulties of the problems for both of you. Your marriage has all of the elements that cause 2nd marriages to fail - meddling ex's, pre-teen and teens kids, over burdened financial situation, overburdened step parent and dwindling resources taken to preserve the primary unit - the relationship between you and your wife.
> 
> My perception was with your original post and it remains so with this post - you sound as if you are angry impatient and dismissive of your wife's difficulty.
> 
> ...


It's easy to take in someone who is validating your feelings. I felt (whether or not it reflects reality) that I've been doing a good job being supportive, loving and patient -- helping her out when she has to work late or things are very busy with the kids. When she pulls away for about 2 weeks with no explanation, I get frustrated (and concerned b/c she did this last time she wanted out -- so I'm gun shy). So, when I read posts that allude to the terrible life that I'm providing for her, then yes I got defensive and angry. I had already gotten pretty worked up about it, so it didn't take much. Really, I'd like to know where I stand with her, what the general expectations are and is there anything I/we can do to improve it? That's what is boils down to. That's what I have to know. 

I also got angry from the sarcasm and unnecessary arguing back and forth. 

The thing is I do appreciate her and tell her so ... maybe not nearly enough, but at least in my mind it was at least reasonable and she definitely knows it. So, when she continues to withdraw despite my efforts, eventually I stop wanting to try and get frustrated. If she said something like "I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I'm in a difficult place right now, still adjusting, please be patient and give me more time" it would be monumentally easier for me to back off and be patient. 

Over time my attitude may have (probably has) gotten worse. It wasn't so good last week before the long weekend, that's for sure. I think that's been the biggest eye-opener for me is checking my own attitude and do some better perspective-taking. I have no clue what it's like to take on someone else's kids and toxic ex. 

I know it appeared that I was only taking one perspective on this (trust me my ego was loving it), but I know my wife well enough that shoving a book in her face and telling her to shape up was a recipe for disaster. Heck, I'd feel lucky if she checked off out a pre-written checklist of how I piss her off. I do think she might do the love busters thing, not so sure how she'll feel about the emotional needs thing. One thing you have to understand, and please trust me on this, is that my wife is atypical. She truly loathes to talk about her feelings, especially in how they relate to the relationship. I know this because she's told me this directly. So, I don't believe she is dying to tell me how unhappy she may truly be or fed up, etc. That's why I'm not too excited about this because I don't think I'll get a straight answer or a direct one (I haven't enough in the past). I will try nonetheless and make sure my approach is non-threatening. Maybe it will be different this time?

Yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow that my situation is unlivable for most. I did try to tell her. Maybe she should have listened.

I know this sounds quite negative, but I've been down this road with her before with poor results. I can only intuit so much of what I can do. 

If we can't communicate in a reasonably open and healthy manner about our relationship (or how she feels about other things), then I don't see how that can be sustainable over time. Do you?

Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful response.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> Wow, that is WAY TOO LITTLE TIME together, qigong, if you don't have the kids full time! Especially this soon into a marriage! Even at 18 hours, that's maybe 6 hours each weekend day and 1 hour each weekday? What's going on the rest of the time?
> 
> I'm sure she feels kind of like a mail-order bride at this point - all business, no fun. I'll give you my list I hand out to people to get their creative juices flowing - use them or find something else, but start SPENDING THAT TIME TOGETHER! And MORE especially if her love language is Time Together! Yeegads!
> 
> ...


Okay then. I'm sure I'm probably underestimating how much time we really spend together, honestly I don't know for sure. And of that time, how much of it counts as quality. We did spend some Saturday and all of Sunday/Monday together -- for whatever that's worth. When we're not spending time together, she's studying or I'm doing extra work from home, she's paying her bills, or I'm paying mine, or I'm working out, etc.

The truth is we don't do much together anymore other than eat, drink, talk, watch tv/movies together. I know she's bummed (me too) that there aren't outdoor things to do around here that we were accustomed to. Also, she doesn't have any answer most of the time of what she'd like to do. She says I don't know a lot. She does turn down most of my suggestions to do anything of an athletic nature, even walks (which surprised and confused me).

That's a great list and I appreciate all the ideas you put down.

We did start reading a book together a long time ago. We used to dance a lot before we moved, but she's turned me down more often than not. We've tried 3 times to get on starting a business together, but it always fizzles out. I've gotten pushed back enough times, that I don't really try hard any more to make suggestions. For all I know, she would be more interested/open to doing something. 

What do you suggest when she turns down my ideas and says I don't know when asked what she wants? By then, I'm usually ready to go to my own thing.

I miss doing random/fun stuff together. I do really like the volunteering suggestion. Something I've been meaning to do and I think she might actually rather go and help others than sit around the house.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> That brings up a good point. One of the single most common things to happen in a marriage is when the woman approaches the man, to tell him something about how she's feeling - as woman are wont to do - and, because he's a man, he has no clue how to understand what she's saying, CARE about what she's saying, or even know how to respond. So he does nothing. Or does the wrong thing. And she learns that it not only does no good to say what she needs to say, but that it HURTS to say it because she gets rebuffed, or ignored, or ridiculed, or told to suck it up, or treated like a guy. So the next time, she says nothing.
> 
> Not saying YOU did any of this, G, but it's worth considering if maybe this may have caused her to withdraw and not be willing to share anything.


As per my earlier post, she's not wont to share her feelings. Just for the record, I certainly don't rebuff, ignore or ridicule her when she does have something to say quite the opposite. Now, I have been guilty of telling her to suck it up at times. I've done this b/c I've heard it so many times from when I'm complaining about the ex or kids, etc. That usually only happens on one of my "bad attitude" days. Maybe I haven't been there for her when she's needed me, but I do think it's fair for her to let me know about it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> As per my earlier post, she's not wont to share her feelings. Just for the record, I certainly don't rebuff, ignore or ridicule her when she does have something to say quite the opposite. Now, I have been guilty of telling her to suck it up at times. I've done this b/c I've heard it so many times from when I'm complaining about the ex or kids, etc. That usually only happens on one of my "bad attitude" days. Maybe I haven't been there for her when she's needed me, but I do think it's fair for her to let me know about it.


 If she has Toxic Shame, all it takes is a sigh or a look, for her to misinterpret you into judging her. 

You can think 'it's fair' all you want, but you are NOT HER, ok? Knowing what's fair doesn't get you squat.

I know you're not a bad guy, at all, but you seem to be having a hard time putting yourself in her shoes. ALLOWING that she experiences things differently from you. I get that you're frustrated and I don't blame you at all. But if you want the marrige to work, you HAVE to figure out how to breach this divide. She has already retreated, so it won't be HER doing the work. That's just how it is. You have a 50/50 shot of getting her to re-invest in the marriage, but that's better than just walking away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> And of that time, how much of it counts as quality.
> 
> The truth is we don't do much together anymore other than eat, drink, talk, watch tv/movies together.


No, that is NOT quality. In fact, it's worse than roommates.



> I know she's bummed (me too) that there aren't outdoor things to do around here that we were accustomed to. Also, she doesn't have any answer most of the time of what she'd like to do. She says I don't know a lot. She does turn down most of my suggestions to do anything of an athletic nature, even walks (which surprised and confused me).


This sounds like depression to me. Which is logical, considering she hates her life right now. Which makes it harder for you to get her to take ANY steps forward. Can you call her mom or dad and talk to them? Maybe she needs someone to talk to about this other than you. Hopefully they will suggest she get tested for depression.



> What do you suggest when she turns down my ideas and says I don't know when asked what she wants? By then, I'm usually ready to go to my own thing.


I suggest you lead by DOING, not just asking and suggesting. Women need their men to be strong and proactive. Sign you and her up for a dance class or something, get her in the car, and just take her there. (but do some research on toxic shame first, in case she has it, because if she does, and you put her in a position of having to be out in front of people, she will RUN) 

Maybe volunteering will be a good first start. You have GOT to change your day to day.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> If she has Toxic Shame, all it takes is a sigh or a look, for her to misinterpret you into judging her.
> 
> You can think 'it's fair' all you want, but you are NOT HER, ok? Knowing what's fair doesn't get you squat.
> 
> I know you're not a bad guy, at all, but you seem to be having a hard time putting yourself in her shoes. ALLOWING that she experiences things differently from you. I get that you're frustrated and I don't blame you at all. But if you want the marrige to work, you HAVE to figure out how to breach this divide. She has already retreated, so it won't be HER doing the work. That's just how it is. You have a 50/50 shot of getting her to re-invest in the marriage, but that's better than just walking away.


I know I'm not her, trust me. I've already said I have a hard time putting myself in her shoes. 

I've already said I WILL be doing the work. I'm trying to be patient and accept my role in this and hear the advice, but it's getting harder to not get pissed off. 

Defn: Toxic shame: describes false, pathological shame, and Bradshaw states that toxic shame is induced, inside children, by all forms of child abuse. Incest and other forms of child sexual abuse can cause particularly severe toxic shame. Toxic shame often induces what is known as complex trauma in children who cannot cope with toxic shaming as it occurs and who dissociate the shame until it is possible to cope with.

If she truly has "toxic shame" as you suggest then she needs to leave me IMMEDIATELY. If my situation and I caused that then she better get the heck away from such a horrendous husband + baggage. 

Listen I appreciate that you are trying to help, but the truth is, you don't KNOW HER, I do. You've already categorized her and sympathize with how she could possibly put up me and my crap. You pretty much act like you know her. Are you her? Have you gone through a bad 2nd marriage with guy who has kids and a terrible ex? Did I wrong you in some way? I keep trying to give you insights of the obstacles I encounter and what your message seems to be is "you're darn lucky is she gives you the time of day, she has taken on everything will owe you nothing, including communication for the rest of your life."

Yes I'm being reactive, but this inquisition is making a little hostile. I GET that I need to take the initiative and that ALL the work in this marriage is on my shoulders right now.

I already said that after my trip, we're going to sit down and have a talk. I'll approach this the best possible way I am able, but I will get to the bottom of this. If she's really that miserable and as unhappy as you say she is and doesn't want to be in this, then I will let her out of her bondage, so she can finally be free and happy. If, on the other hand, she says she truly loves me and wants us to be happy together, then I'll bust my @ss on this marriage.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> No, that is NOT quality. In fact, it's worse than roommates.
> 
> This sounds like depression to me. Which is logical, considering she hates her life right now. Which makes it harder for you to get her to take ANY steps forward. Can you call her mom or dad and talk to them? Maybe she needs someone to talk to about this other than you. Hopefully they will suggest she get tested for depression.


It does me too. Some days I feel like I'm falling into that myself. She refuses therapy of any kind. I broached it months ago when she was down. I guess I could call her parents, but I'm pretty sure she'd crucify me for that one. Her family doesn't talk about their feelings in general and she doesn't tell her parents that much, certainly not about how she feels about certain things. I wouldn't intervene like that unless she stopped going to work or some other bigger symptom.



turnera said:


> I suggest you lead by DOING, not just asking and suggesting. Women need their men to be strong and proactive. Sign you and her up for a dance class or something, get her in the car, and just take her there. (but do some research on toxic shame first, in case she has it, because if she does, and you put her in a position of having to be out in front of people, she will RUN)
> 
> Maybe volunteering will be a good first start. You have GOT to change your day to day.


Yes, the volunteering is a solid idea. We're already doing some volunteering in a couple of weeks for a festival with the kids. I don't think she has toxic shame. I'm pretty sure she's just pretty annoyed with her life right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You think I'm giving you an inquisition? Sorry, not my intention. You're still here asking for more ideas, so I'm still here trying to brainstorm with the only things I know to suggest, in as many different ways as they can be said, so that maybe something will resonate with you and you'll see something that will help. That is all. I guess I'm not helping, so I'll bow out. Maybe someone else can come up with something.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I hear you, may sound like pilling on by a bunch of women. I wish some of the men would help out by posting if only to give you their take if they have had similar experiences and have some reasonable advice. 

Please don't take all of the analysis and advice whole because you are right, people see things based on their own experiences and misunderstanding. There are still elements that may be helpful, that you have to wade through and find. 

Just looking at things from the outside, it has been very difficult for both of you and you seem to be a very dedicated father and husband. You would not bother to take what precious time you have to search out solutions. In your position, many people would have either buried their head in the sand or cheaked out totally.

She is as lucky to have you as you are her and that says something. I think it would be difficult for her to find a man of your quality although she may find a man with a less complex life situation on the face of it but, none better than you. But something hard won is that much more precious and I think it is worth the fight for you both. 

She sounds like a difficult nut to crack though and you need to find the door back in. 

I have a common malady of many women, I cannot forget any of the hurtful things that my husband has done during a very difficult period in our marriage. 

Mind you, I was able to acknowledge my role in the downward spiral and also that I hurt him equally as much. However, he forgave me almost instantly when I asked and I forgave him. He went a step further, he seems to have forgotten and accepted that the past is the past. 

I cannot totally forget and still have emotional trigers not as bad now, but still. I wish I could forget but my mind will not let me. My point is that woman hold onto to hurt for a long time. 

If you said hurtful things she remembers and probably the emotions pop up unbidden into her mind. Men sometimes make fun of this but it's true to a more or less degree. It would do us women good to learn from men in this regard. 

If only you could find each other again and get on the same team. Think about what may have been said and what attitudes may have been conveyed in the beginning of the troubles. 

I don't know if more apologizes are useful but perhaps reverse your thinking and act accordingly, if you believe that you may not have been as understanding as was needed. She was naive about children and ex's so you have to cut her some slack. 

You did not deceive her and she made the choice to accept the challenge. It is also not your fault that the situation turned out to be so difficult. But it is not her fault that it has stretched her abilities to adapt. 

It is what it is. I really have to agree with Turnera, you have to take the lead. Don't ask, make a good plan and carry it out. 

May I suggest a two book series - "For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women" and "For Women Only: What You Need to Know about the Inner Lives of Men" Shaunti Feldhahn , Jeff Feldhahn
they really helped start my understanding of my husband as a man and the way men think.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

If you don't get enough feedback from men, you may want to post in the Mens Clubhouse with a link back to this post. Some really sensible men hang out there and will chime in I am sure.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> You think I'm giving you an inquisition? Sorry, not my intention. You're still here asking for more ideas, so I'm still here trying to brainstorm with the only things I know to suggest, in as many different ways as they can be said, so that maybe something will resonate with you and you'll see something that will help. That is all. I guess I'm not helping, so I'll bow out. Maybe someone else can come up with something.


Turnera, I do get that you're trying to help and several of your suggestions have been very good, but some of the way you position things gives me the impression that you think I've done something terrible or that no one in their right mind would ever be with me and you just don't know me like that. It's great that you can take her perspective, but there are 2 people involved in this. And while I agree this situation became more than could cope with, but we are each alone accountable and responsible for our own happiness. If she knows that she can't ever be happy with me in this situation, then she should say or do something about it. Carrying on acting fairly unhappy and retreating into herself, but pretending everything is kosher isn't good for either of us. My point is, why prolong the pain? Let's fix it together (and yes I do expect her to communicate a bit more about what's going out ... that's pretty much it right now) or let's move on even as difficult and painful as that will be.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I hear you, may sound like pilling on by a bunch of women. I wish some of the men would help out by posting if only to give you their take if they have had similar experiences and have some reasonable advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> If you don't get enough feedback from men, you may want to post in the Mens Clubhouse with a link back to this post. Some really sensible men hang out there and will chime in I am sure.


Good idea. I know I jumped on 3rdtime's band wagon eagerly, but I don't totally disagree with him either. He could relate to exactly what I'm going through for one. Secondly, we all get that she's having a rough time with the situation, but we are all individually responsible and accountable for ourselves, our reactions, and our own happiness. She seems to have accepted at best quasi-unhappiness which is unacceptable for her and for me. Just like my unhappiness is no good for her. I also agree that if she has checked out and it truly doesn't matter what I do at this point (which believe me has felt that way at times), then it is time for us to part ways and for me to fix and improve on myself.

Thanks again for your time and thoughtful responses.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> Turnera, I do get that you're trying to help and several of your suggestions have been very good, but some of the way you position things gives me the impression that you think I've done something terrible or that no one in their right mind would ever be with me and you just don't know me like that. It's great that you can take her perspective, but there are 2 people involved in this. And while I agree this situation became more than could cope with, but we are each alone accountable and responsible for our own happiness. If she knows that she can't ever be happy with me in this situation, then *she should* say or do something about it. Carrying on acting fairly unhappy and retreating into herself, but pretending everything is kosher isn't good for either of us. My point is, why prolong the pain? Let's fix it together (and yes *I do expect her* to communicate a bit more about what's going out ... that's pretty much it right now) or let's move on even as difficult and painful as that will be.


Just a couple things and then I'll leave. I'm a very candid poster. Some people are great about patting people on the back so they'll feel good. I can't do it. I just can't; it sticks in my throat, unfortunately, to pass out compliments, that's just the way I am - very blunt and upfront and get to the business. So I leave that to other posters who talk that way. So I can see how you thought I didn't respect you. I do. Immensely. Hell, just moving back to be near your kids puts you at 100% above just about any other man I've ever met. That's amazing. So don't think I don't respect and appreciate all you're doing. And I know you're busting your butt to get her to get back on board.

That said, here's the one thing that keeps popping up for me - and I'm not saying it to dis you but to help you see what I think is a possible missing ***** in your method, so you can address it. You keep saying 'she should' - a LOT. She SHOULD be caring. She SHOULD be telling me what she feels. She SHOULD be invested in this marriage and give back.

Yes, she SHOULD. But she DOESN'T. She is not you. She has her own background, her own baggage, her own childhood that guides how she deals with things, her own scarring that maybe makes her think she has to withdraw to protect herself. She has her own...everything. So she does what she does. And it makes sense to her. 

You want her to approach this the same way you do. To you, your way makes sense. And I'll agree with you. My parents hid under stress, and it was horrible. But guess what? That's what _I _learned, so now_ I_ run and hide under stress. She's just doing what her brain hardwired in childhood to get her to do for self-preservation (read Emotional Alchemy to get a good handle on that), so that's what you're stuck with. I keep asking you to get to know what she's thinking, because that hardwiring is what is causing her to retreat. And she probably has no clue she's doing it; it just soothes her, so she does it. If you can somehow find out more about her, to learn how and why and when it happens, you can DEAL with it more efficiently and proactively and successfully. Because she isn't you, and she's not going to handle things the way you do.

THAT's what I've been trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to get you to see: yes, she should, but she won't, so what to do now? Now...approach it from HER side. So that she once again feels safe to share with you. 

Heck, maybe all this will take is you talking, who knows? Sometimes communication is all someone needs to feel safe and cared for and loved again. I hope so. If not, be patient and loving, and show her you're there for her and want her to be happy, and help her crawl out of her shell.

Best of luck.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> Just a couple things and then I'll leave. I'm a very candid poster. Some people are great about patting people on the back so they'll feel good. I can't do it. I just can't; it sticks in my throat, unfortunately, to pass out compliments, that's just the way I am - very blunt and upfront and get to the business. So I leave that to other posters who talk that way. So I can see how you thought I didn't respect you. I do. Immensely. Hell, just moving back to be near your kids puts you at 100% above just about any other man I've ever met. That's amazing. So don't think I don't respect and appreciate all you're doing. And I know you're busting your butt to get her to get back on board.


Thank you for that. I don't necessarily need coddling, but when I perceive (and perception is reality in those moments) that my integrity is being attacked, then I lash back. I won't lie, I don't mind some encouragement now and again, esp. when my head is so screwed up. 



turnera said:


> That said, here's the one thing that keeps popping up for me - and I'm not saying it to dis you but to help you see what I think is a possible missing ***** in your method, so you can address it. You keep saying 'she should' - a LOT. She SHOULD be caring. She SHOULD be telling me what she feels. She SHOULD be invested in this marriage and give back.


I say "should" b/c that's what I want. Some days when I'm trying hard, I feel some entitlement to that (right or wrong). I will release my attachments to the "shoulds" and focus on how I can inspire or help her to re-engage.



turnera said:


> Yes, she SHOULD. But she DOESN'T. She is not you. She has her own background, her own baggage, her own childhood that guides how she deals with things, her own scarring that maybe makes her think she has to withdraw to protect herself. She has her own...everything. So she does what she does. And it makes sense to her.


That makes sense.



turnera said:


> You want her to approach this the same way you do. To you, your way makes sense. And I'll agree with you. My parents hid under stress, and it was horrible. But guess what? That's what _I _learned, so now_ I_ run and hide under stress. She's just doing what her brain hardwired in childhood to get her to do for self-preservation (read Emotional Alchemy to get a good handle on that), so that's what you're stuck with. I keep asking you to get to know what she's thinking, because that hardwiring is what is causing her to retreat. And she probably has no clue she's doing it; it just soothes her, so she does it. If you can somehow find out more about her, to learn how and why and when it happens, you can DEAL with it more efficiently and proactively and successfully. Because she isn't you, and she's not going to handle things the way you do.
> 
> THAT's what I've been trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to get you to see: yes, she should, but she won't, so what to do now? Now...approach it from HER side. So that she once again feels safe to share with you.


Creating the safe environment has been a challenge for me, but worth pursuing. You said "And she probably has no clue she's doing it; it just soothes her, so she does it." I haven't really considered that, but it makes a lot of sense. Esp. when I'm reacting to it and she doesn't seem to understand what I'm upset about.



turnera said:


> Heck, maybe all this will take is you talking, who knows? Sometimes communication is all someone needs to feel safe and cared for and loved again. I hope so. If not, be patient and loving, and show her you're there for her and want her to be happy, and help her crawl out of her shell.
> 
> Best of luck.


I hope so, but I will plan for the challenge. Thanks. This post made a lot more sense to me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's a description of the book Emotional Alchemy (which someone recommended to ME, so I now continue the favor):
"We all desire happiness and do not want suffering." The Dalai Lama introduces Bennett-Goleman's first book with this trademark refrain, adding the deceptively simple Buddhist truth that much suffering is caused by our "disturbing emotions." Bennett-Goleman, a psychotherapist and longtime student of Buddhist meditation, draws on decades of experience to elucidate how the Buddhist practices of nonjudgmental awareness or mindfulness and the cultivation of compassion can unclasp the grip of the most addictive and deeply entrenched emotional patterns. What sets Bennett-Goleman's work apart from other contributions to the emerging field of Buddhist-oriented psychotherapy is her particular expertise in "schema therapy," which applies the consciousness of thought patterns that characterizes cognitive therapy to the deep-seated emotional habits that are formed in childhood. Thus she shows readers how our habitual fears and defenses get triggered again and again in our relationships, mechanically perpetuating old pain and obscuring reality.

"Mindfulness means seeing things as they are without trying to change them," she writes. "The point is to dissolve our reactions to disturbing emotions, being careful not to reject the emotion itself."


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

qigong said:


> Good idea. I know I jumped on 3rdtime's band wagon eagerly, but I don't totally disagree with him either. He could relate to exactly what I'm going through for one. Secondly, we all get that she's having a rough time with the situation, but we are all individually responsible and accountable for ourselves, our reactions, and our own happiness. She seems to have accepted at best quasi-unhappiness which is unacceptable for her and for me. Just like my unhappiness is no good for her. I also agree that if she has checked out and it truly doesn't matter what I do at this point (which believe me has felt that way at times), then it is time for us to part ways and for me to fix and improve on myself.
> 
> Thanks again for your time and thoughtful responses.


G I suggested that you seek out the advice of men because sometimes we women see things from our standpoint and men from their stand point. Some individuals are less biased than others. 

But I think your can get something out of even a biased view. It is up to the you to examine the info honestly and not take the easy way out for yourself and for her. 

You are right that she needs to communicate with you. It is unfair for you to feel you don't even know if she is marking time. 

It sounds as if you have been taking the lead in making things right and I think that you have a right to expect her to meet you halfway or to be honest and let you know if she is in all the way or not.

I really think as part of solving the problems that MC is mandatory. Don't ask tell her that you have made some inquires and ask her schedule so that you can make an appointment. Ask if she has a therapist in mind. 

If she refuses, tell her that this is part of working on the relationship and it is a sign that she is in. If she still refuses you go by yourself. But make it clear that MC means to you that she is fully committed. 

BTW, I am not trying to make you feel good. I say what I see. If you were a total jerk I would say it. Your persistence in posting, considering every point and trying to turn this around tells what you are made out of as a man. Also, a man who is devoted to his children is on the top of my list of worthwhile man. Thats my bias.

What was concerning in your original post was that you said you could not see things from her standpoint. I don't think that is true. With all you have on your plate, it is probably difficult to see anything except survival. Also, not having your needs met makes it emotionally difficult to put your own pain aside to experience someone else's. 

I really wish you the very best. Keep posting, you have a long way to go and it will help to use the forum as a place to vent, float ideas and to get help and info.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> Here's a description of the book Emotional Alchemy (which someone recommended to ME, so I now continue the favor):
> "We all desire happiness and do not want suffering." The Dalai Lama introduces Bennett-Goleman's first book with this trademark refrain, adding the deceptively simple Buddhist truth that much suffering is caused by our "disturbing emotions." Bennett-Goleman, a psychotherapist and longtime student of Buddhist meditation, draws on decades of experience to elucidate how the Buddhist practices of nonjudgmental awareness or mindfulness and the cultivation of compassion can unclasp the grip of the most addictive and deeply entrenched emotional patterns. What sets Bennett-Goleman's work apart from other contributions to the emerging field of Buddhist-oriented psychotherapy is her particular expertise in "schema therapy," which applies the consciousness of thought patterns that characterizes cognitive therapy to the deep-seated emotional habits that are formed in childhood. Thus she shows readers how our habitual fears and defenses get triggered again and again in our relationships, mechanically perpetuating old pain and obscuring reality.
> 
> "Mindfulness means seeing things as they are without trying to change them," she writes. "The point is to dissolve our reactions to disturbing emotions, being careful not to reject the emotion itself."


Thank for that Tunera. I particularly like the last quote ... very wise. 

I will look into that book. My wife and I started reading "How to Love your Marriage" some months ago, but I wasn't ready for it and stopped (my bad!). I will see if she is willing to do that again with me, if not, I'll read it anyway. 

I'm just back from a grueling week of work out of town. I will be sitting down with her this weekend to let her know how much I appreciate her and what I intend to do to improve our marriage and reconnect. Wish me luck!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Good Luck! :smthumbup:


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> G I suggested that you seek out the advice of men because sometimes we women see things from our standpoint and men from their stand point. Some individuals are less biased than others.
> 
> But I think your can get something out of even a biased view. It is up to the you to examine the info honestly and not take the easy way out for yourself and for her.
> 
> ...


Hi Catherine,

Thank you for your candid feedback. You're right, in my first post I was seeing little/no part of my wife's perspective. Through this process of discussions (though a bit painful and difficult at times), I have had my eyes opened. I've been able to step back and see things more clearly than before and for that I'm grateful to you and all the contributors to this thread.

I still have quite a few moments during which my own negative/pessimistic thoughts betray me and send me down the wrong path, if even temporarily. I won't lie, my self-esteem has been pretty shot up in this marriage and I put way too much of my self worth in how she feels about me -- or worse how she acts towards me or whether or not she physically rejects me. Then things get skewed and having perspective is damn hard. I've been consciously working on this and strategies to separate my self-worth from those things. Long story short it's nice to be validated now and then especially when the person you love isn't.

I think MC is a fine idea. I'm not sure I want to push that as an absolute just now. I know how much she hates opening to people she doesn't. Hell, she doesn't even like opening up to me or her family. 

I will however push that we go back to reading the aforementioned book, How to Love your Marriage together and in doing those exercises together. I like the suggestion that her willingness to do that is a commitment to the marriage. It does mean she wants to try. 

I do get mixed signals which confuses me to no end. When I left town for business last weekend, she gave me a very nice (almost touching goodbye), but when I returned it was more chilly. Maybe I read too much into things because we were both exhausted from work, lack of sleep, etc. but it just seems she's gone pretty numb.

At any rate, I will be sitting down with her, probably this evening to talk about us and how we can make this a marriage we are proud of and can really enjoy. 

Thanks for your comments/suggestions .. wish me luck.

G


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Good Luck! :smthumbup:


Thanks Enchantment! 

I also wanted to say to everyone that this thread-experience has been more helpful than I imagined. Regardless of whether things work out or not, I feel like my head is on straighter than before and I can manage this with more grace. Thank you for that!

G


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> If you don't get enough feedback from men, you may want to post in the Mens Clubhouse with a link back to this post. Some really sensible men hang out there and will chime in I am sure.


By the way I did to this and got some good feedback and suggestions there as well. I was also directed to the Man Up posts which is something I need to do as well. I need to lead in the direction I want us to go and make things happen. If she decides to take another path, then that's on her.

G


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## Daisytoo (Sep 16, 2011)

qigong, Can you say a bit more about your venomous ex wife? Sounds like your wife has simply given up on you. Why? Has your ex attacked her directly -- or are the attacks deployed by her through your children onto your wife? Or has your wife had to endure watching your ex abuse you? 

If any of these are true, do you stand by your wife or do you make excuses/minimize the harm done her and so enable the venomous ex and children who very well may be 'spoiled' at the cost of both your children and your wife? 

Women can quickly become exhausted by this sort of lack of loyalty. Of course, my questions may be entirely off the mark. But it's you who brought up the venomous ex and then dropped it.


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## Daisytoo (Sep 16, 2011)

P.S. qigong .. Since you are extremely clear that connecting through communication is problematic within your marriage, have you looked at any of Harville Hendrix work? It's brilliant. Hope for the best for you and your family!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Daisytoo said:


> qigong, Can you say a bit more about your venomous ex wife? Sounds like your wife has simply given up on you. Why? Has your ex attacked her directly -- or are the attacks deployed by her through your children onto your wife? Or has your wife had to endure watching your ex abuse you?
> 
> If any of these are true, do you stand by your wife or do you make excuses/minimize the harm done her and so enable the venomous ex and children who very well may be 'spoiled' at the cost of both your children and your wife?
> 
> Women can quickly become exhausted by this sort of lack of loyalty. Of course, my questions may be entirely off the mark. But it's you who brought up the venomous ex and then dropped it.


Hi Daisy,

You're right, she has completely given up on me, but it's not because I support my ex in any way actively or passively, quite the opposite. My wife has made valuable suggestions with regards of how best to deal with her and I have taken her up on nearly all of them. My last, serious email to my ex explained exactly why I'm so pissed of with her (she neglects the kids nutrition, she doesn't maintain a reasonably clean house for them, she doesn't help them much with their homework or ensure they are turning in their assignments, she promotes irresponsibility through her actions and she chooses to go out rather than to pay her bills). It's the effect it has negatively on the kids that we see every week that makes her so mad. The ex also purposefully lies, manipulates and otherwise says pretty terrible things to make me feel bad (particularly when she gets called on doing something clearly wrong like putting "@ss" for my name in her phone, then gives the phone to the kids to call me with so they get to see that). I could go on.

I'm not sure what more I can do to calmly, maturely deal with the ex and be supportive of my wife. It's just too much for her.

Thanks though for your inquiry and suggestion!

G


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Well S**T! I had the talk with her last night. Obviously it didn't go so well. It was tough to get started with it, because we were otherwise having a very good conversation and an otherwise pleasant evening. I'm quite proud of how I handled it. I was very calm, polite, mature and not reactive. She was very appreciative of my approach and the opportunity to talk in a non-threatening environment. Didn't really matter much. It's not a big surprise and Tunera was quite right in her first analysis. She's checked out. She admitted that she is marking time until an opportunity for a graceful exit was going to present itself. 

I'm not okay with sitting around waiting for her to find the courage to leave. She was not at ALL interested in marriage counseling and she admitted that doesn't want to try at all. 

Ironically, just this past May she wanted to try and was trying. Maybe I wasn't, I'm not sure. I remember having a really good attitude when I returned from my May business trip and she was excited to see me, but I guess things slowly fizzled out. 

I asked her what had happened between then and now. She told me that nothing changed. She got up, went to work, went to bed, repeat. I asked her what she wanted to be different and she couldn't articulate anything. I asked her what could I have done and what does being happy with me look like. She said "i don't know." to both. I told her it's hard for me to change when you can't tell me what it is you want.

She further admitted that my kids and ex are the main problem. I'm doing the best I am able to with at this point in dealing with the ex and I'm not leaving my kids, so ...

I spent last night at a friend's house. She texted me this morning wanting a trial 1-month separation. I went home, we discussed. I turned it down. If she doesn't love me now (well she says she does, but it's hard to believe) and definitely doesn't want to try, how is a month off going to help? She might miss me a lot and think life is better together, but what kind of life are we talking about. Even if she left and came back ready to be married to me, I don't know how I could change my feelings on a dime knowing she just previously wanted out. Plus, and most importantly, I don't want to do that to my kids. They've been through enough and have plenty of distractions to have to have a step-mom wandering in and out of their lives. 

She's having a hard time deciding if she'll stay local or move back near her family/friends. Personally, I hope she leaves. I still love her very much (she knows this) and I don't really want to randomly bump into her, especially if she's with someone else. 

It's time to focus on my kids now. Luckily we don't own this house together and it makes sense for me to stay since I need the space for my kids and she hates this state anyway. 

It really sucks. I wish I could have maintained my attitude and optimism that I was able to muster with ease last night. I was openly grateful for all she's sacrificed and done. I was especially grateful for how she has helped me become a better father. 

I'm exhausted, more bitter and in a dark place today. But, tomorrow is another day. This too shall pass. Some day I will understand why this happened and what I have learned from it. Things happen for a reason and I will be better and happier for it in the long run. 

There are some things I want to work on personally to grow and become a better person and dad. It will be easier to do so after she's gone I think (and hope). Regardless I need to keep my head up. I got 2 spectacular kids to raise and I need to have my head on straight in order to do so. 

I would solicit any suggestions on how best to tell the kids when she leaves (which could still take a couple of weeks -- she's not too social and doesn't know a lot of people here and her family is 2 days away by car).

Thanks to all for your support. Being able to write this stuff down and get some good interaction on the subject has been very beneficial to me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry. 

All you can do is tell them that you and she couldn't come to an agreement on life together, and that sometimes happens with grownups - that they think they have a great connection but find that they have issues that don't gel. Do NOT bring up them or their mom.

Who knows? Maybe she'll realize, away from you, what a mistake she's made and ask for you to take her back. 

For what it's worth, I still have the utmost respect for you for moving back to be in your kids' lives. There's nothing more admirable than that.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> All you can do is tell them that you and she couldn't come to an agreement on life together, and that sometimes happens with grownups - that they think they have a great connection but find that they have issues that don't gel. Do NOT bring up them or their mom.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tunera! I appreciate the feedback for the kids.

I thought this chapter was over, then something startling happened. On Saturday we spoke more in depth about things and decided that she would move out in 2 weeks and we would basically "play house" in the mean time to maintain appearances for the kids and keep the household running.

Yesterday is a whole 'nother story and huge roller coaster. She was getting upset by all this and leaving and suddenly she let her emotions out. She cried and admitted she loves me, doesn't want to do this alone and that she needs me. I was a bit stunned by this. We embraced, she agreed to go to marriage counseling and from nothing, there was hope. We took a break went out and did something fun for few hours together before talking about things. After dinner we sat down and starting making a list of changes we were going to make. 

Before we got started on that I told her that even though she apologized for being so cold and distant, I didn't blame her for it. Long story short I validated how hard it's been for her, told her I understood and that together we're going to make this better and that I'm going to point this relationship in the direction I want it to go and help us get there. She appreciated the leadership I was taking and frankly I somehow found all the right words to say ... everything she needed to hear. We shared some very touching moments. Hope and been restored, for us both.

With my initiative we started making lists and plans of what days of the week we were going to work on our marriage, talk about the kids, go out and have fun, other activities we wanted to share together. Working on goals, finances, holding each other accountable ... it was all good. The evening was early enough to work on some more, so she agreed to do the Love Busters Q. That was a little scary, but up until the end it was going really good and positive.

We started from least to worst. Her last thing was selfish demands and I knew what was coming. I would push her for sex and affection when she was shut down and didn't want any part of that. I understood that part and said I'd be patient and over time we can get back to that as we re-discover each other, etc. Then the other shoe dropped. She admitted that she only likes sex at the beginning of a relationship and that the only way she could get into it again is if she started over with someone else. She said she didn't want to do that, but she was very happy to continue in the marriage but without any sex (or extremely little). The admitted that she categorically doesn't want sex. I can understand that, but she doesn't seem to know why, she just doesn't want. She thinks yes, it could be partly because of the stress of kids, ex, work, etc., but she said there is nothing I can do about it. Even if I took all those things away and did something terribly romantic she still wouldn't want me. So, there is nothing it seems I can do. She also admitted that sex means nothing to her ... just a physical act. It certainly means something to me to be with her. I sincerely want her because I love her, find her beautiful and enjoy the closeness that comes with that kind of intimacy. I'm willing to be patient and do anyting I possibly can for her to feel passionate, but she's just not really interested in that. I don't find anything wrong with wanting to make love to my wife, but it seems for my marriage to work I must give it up pretty much entirely. She said that she has no idea what to do about it, that it's not about how I look etc. 

I'm stumped and monumentally confused. Why do women hate sex so much after marriage??? If I had let myself go, not cared, not done my part around the house, etc, etc, then fine. But believe me I'm trying really hard to be attractive and not aggressive about this. Basically, I'm screwed. I love her and want to be married, but this is a deal breaker for me. I know I'll probably get flamed for that, but it's pretty important to me. I always believed that healthy intimacy in a marriage was not only possible but key to sustained happiness. I must have been wrong on that one.

Now what?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

qigong said:


> I'm stumped and monumentally confused. Why do women hate sex so much after marriage??? If I had let myself go, not cared, not done my part around the house, etc, etc, then fine. But believe me I'm trying really hard to be attractive and not aggressive about this. Basically, I'm screwed. I love her and want to be married, but this is a deal breaker for me. I know I'll probably get flamed for that, but it's pretty important to me. I always believed that healthy intimacy in a marriage was not only possible but key to sustained happiness. I must have been wrong on that one.
> 
> Now what?


They don't hate it. Your wife is being immature. Once the euphoria of a new relationship fades, the real business of a marriage begins. A lot of people just don't seem to realize that and are unwilling to put in the work it requires.

So, she would be willing and content to go through life with a myriad of partners just so she can feel that initial euphoric high? The thing is that you can re-ignite that spark throughout a long-term marriage if you both work at it.

And, stick to your guns about wanting intimacy in your marriage. That's a big part of what marriage is all about. You shouldn't feel ashamed about it. But she should - for having such a shallow view of sex and marriage. imho.

Best wishes.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> They don't hate it. Your wife is being immature. Once the euphoria of a new relationship fades, the real business of a marriage begins. A lot of people just don't seem to realize that and are unwilling to put in the work it requires.
> 
> So, she would be willing and content to go through life with a myriad of partners just so she can feel that initial euphoric high? The thing is that you can re-ignite that spark throughout a long-term marriage if you both work at it.
> 
> ...



Thanks Enchantment.

After reading some posts in the sex forum I've learned that women not only like sex in marriage, but some really crave the hell out of it. Boy am i missing out!

Intimacy is a very big deal for me. And I'm not the kind of person that does his business, turns over and done. I love and crave the connection you get from pleasing each other and frankly I'm not happy unless she is satisfied. It boggles my mind that she's not really interested in any of that. She admitted that she doesn't want that with anyone else, but is basically very satisfied with having sex 1-2 year, when she feels the urge and that's it. FML!

I can't turn it off and further, I don't want to and agree that I shouldn't have to.

At least she did text me this morning to say that she loves me, wants this to work and that she needs to face her problems. So, there is a glimmer of hope, but I'm not jumping for joy yet (though I was last night prior to the 'bad news'). 

It seems quite dysfunctional. My guess is that something traumatic happened in her past that she has buried so deep and is too humiliated to discuss with anyone ever.

She's really gonna have to sell me tonight. If she admits to anything traumatic, then I'll be supportive. If she goes to see a therapist to attempt to uncover the root cause, I'll be supportive, but I'm not my last leg here.

If she wants the status quo, I'm done. I can't be with someone who has no desire to have an intimate relationship with me.

It really sucks because I thought we had a major breakthrough last night. What a roller coaster! I want off this ride, it's making me want to throw up!


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

qigong said:


> Thanks Enchantment.
> 
> At least she did text me this morning to say that she loves me, wants this to work and that she needs to face her problems. So, there is a glimmer of hope, but I'm not jumping for joy yet (though I was last night prior to the 'bad news').
> 
> ...


So, a big revelation last night. She finally admitted something pretty terrible had happened when she was very young. I had 1000 questions but I didn't push. Frankly, I don't think I want to know. If I knew who, what and when, I would want vengeance! How can someone do something like that?? Apparently it happens more often than anyone would like to believe and most women repress it for years or forever. She's had some therapy on it, but never actually recanted the story. My personal belief is if she could tell someone (a professional), then as difficult and painful it would be, it would better allow the healing process. She doesn't want to do that and probably won't. She is willing to get help short of telling the story. I'll do anything I can, but I'm too emotionally involved and not professionally trained so I can't make the type of suggestions that could really engender change. I can however love, support, nurture and keep telling her how beautiful and awesome she is, which I've done a good job of so far (okay it's only been the last couple of days, but I have it in me to keep it up). 

In the mean time I will encourage her to see someone which she seems willing to do as long as she doesn't have to tell her story. I will also seek out books for her to read and me as well so I can better understand what she's going through and how best I can help her heal. 

We had a really good talk last night and I was able to make her feel better and safer. I must say I'm grateful I came to this group and for all the helpful suggestions. When I finally gained perspective about what she's done and been through to be here with me and kids, etc. and was able to tell her that in the right way ... it blew her mind! Those 5 days I was out of town on business, she was working out how to leave. But after hearing what she never thought she would hear from me, she feels appreciated and loved. It completely changed the direction we were headed ... that's pretty awesome! 

I know the road ahead will be challenging no less. However, I do get gratification and satisfaction out of knowing that I'm really making a difference ... in being a better man than I have been. The selfish part of me inside is concerned that we'll never have much of a sexual relationship, but I have hope that the rewards of getting through this together and being there for her in a way no one else ever has, could be great.


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## SoHO (Sep 19, 2011)

qigong said:


> So, a big revelation last night. She finally admitted something pretty terrible had happened when she was very young. I had 1000 questions but I didn't push. Frankly, I don't think I want to know. If I knew who, what and when, I would want vengeance! How can someone do something like that?? Apparently it happens more often than anyone would like to believe and most women repress it for years or forever. She's had some therapy on it, but never actually recanted the story. My personal belief is if she could tell someone (a professional), then as difficult and painful it would be, it would better allow the healing process. She doesn't want to do that and probably won't. She is willing to get help short of telling the story. I'll do anything I can, but I'm too emotionally involved and not professionally trained so I can't make the type of suggestions that could really engender change. I can however love, support, nurture and keep telling her how beautiful and awesome she is, which I've done a good job of so far (okay it's only been the last couple of days, but I have it in me to keep it up).
> 
> In the mean time I will encourage her to see someone which she seems willing to do as long as she doesn't have to tell her story. I will also seek out books for her to read and me as well so I can better understand what she's going through and how best I can help her heal.
> 
> ...


Sorry g, I don't buy this. Why she was into it when you're dating and now she needs it 1-2 per year? it's not the way you look,,,,not the way you talk, she loves you but not wanting to have sex with you? Human species and all other living creatures mate in this world and love and courtship each other in different ways. She is the only one that doesn't wan it? But she would want to have sex with someone new?!:scratchhead:
Hello??!!! LEAVE this marriage!!! It's not healthy for both of you!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's actually VERY typical for abuse victims - they have tons of sex to get a man and then shut off once they're married. Very complicated stuff. HAS to be dealt with in therapy or she'll be screwed up for life.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

SoHO said:


> Sorry g, I don't buy this. Why she was into it when you're dating and now she needs it 1-2 per year? it's not the way you look,,,,not the way you talk, she loves you but not wanting to have sex with you? Human species and all other living creatures mate in this world and love and courtship each other in different ways. She is the only one that doesn't wan it? But she would want to have sex with someone new?!:scratchhead:
> Hello??!!! LEAVE this marriage!!! It's not healthy for both of you!!!


It is confusing and it is messing up my head, trying to stay cool about this. She doesn't want anyone else, that is clear and has been confronted. She said that she could only have a bunch of sex like that right now if it was with someone new, then the same result would happen if she got serious with that person.

I'm not exactly thrilled about it either and not sure that even if she really deals with these issues that our sex life may only be average at best somewhere down the road. 

It also occurred to me that it's a really convenient excuse. I don't want to believe that and I don't think she's lying to me. The evidence against dishonesty is that she's gone through this in every previous relationship and hasn't had a relationship before this last more than 2 yrs. Most go about a year if that. The other evidence is how sincerely she expressed how much she loves me and wants to be with me (the way she expressed that is hard to fake, though if she was having this emotional breakthrough moment with me - why couldn't she at least have sex with me in that moment I can't understand). She admits to liking/enjoying sex, so if she didn't have an issue with sex, why would she want to stay with me for many, many years and not have much if any sex? 

The bottom line is I love her and she loves me. It seems terribly hasty to just end it now and not give her the chance to work on this. If she doesn't try and make progress on this, then I can't go on like this forever. It's not right or healthy in my opinion, but running away from it right now doesn't feel right either.

I appreciate your feedback, but I need to explore this further before calling it quits.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> It's actually VERY typical for abuse victims - they have tons of sex to get a man and then shut off once they're married. Very complicated stuff. HAS to be dealt with in therapy or she'll be screwed up for life.


Thanks Tunera. I hope that's the truth and that she can heal.

I'm going to do my own research on this, but if you or anyone has any good resources, please advise.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'd be very worried about what she will do when she decides she wants some. Will she only be able to get it from a new guy? I honestly think she's just setting you up to live on her terms, while she reserves herself for her next affair.

Why would you take her back as only a roommate? You married a wife, not just a roommate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I'd be very worried about what she will do when she decides she wants some. Will she only be able to get it from a new guy? I honestly think she's just setting you up to live on her terms, while she reserves herself for her next affair.
> 
> Why would you take her back as only a roommate? You married a wife, not just a roommate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think she wants to be with someone else at this point. I've asked her that question straight up. I was married to a pathological liar for 9 years and 3 years as a cop, so I usually know when someone's lying to me. Doesn't mean she might change her mind down the road. 

I thought that I was okay with being a standup guy and helping her deal with a trauma, but this whole thing is really messing with my head! 

Am I just being a putz and playing into her game? She is getting things her way with little compromising. I don't want pity sex or obligatory sex. If she doesn't want me ...?

I reached out to a therapist for her and sent her the info. If she does nothing with it, then that's a bad sign for me and I will re-evaluate things.

Any women want to give another perspective? Or do you agree that I may be pretty screwed here?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> I reached out to a therapist for her and sent her the info. If she does nothing with it, then that's a bad sign for me and I will re-evaluate things.


Tell her that.

She may need to be pushed to take action. May be hoping you'll just let it die down.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> Tell her that.
> 
> She may need to be pushed to take action. May be hoping you'll just let it die down.


I did. We discussed it tonight. She suggested that I go see that therapist to better understand what she's feeling. What??!?

Maybe she feels I'm pushing too hard or I'm being impatient (maybe that's true), but this is making me crazy and very unhappy.

She said that she has no interest in me physically and that's just how she feels. If pushed about it, she'll blame it on the trauma, but doesn't want to do anything about it. We got into another small argument and it almost ended again right there. I don't like setting utimatums, but I don't want to be a putz, sitting, wishing, waiting. People are saying I should get the hell out and I"m starting to believe them. What is really going on here anyway?

I want to help her, I want to be supportive even though I fully believe we'll never have great intimacy in our marriage. I have good reason to believe she really doesn't want it. 

I asked her to give me something to believe in, to hang my hat on. She first said, give it a year and I wasn't okay with that answer. Then she said one month and she will get around to getting a book on it. I'm supposed to believe in this. I'm finding it very difficult to do that. It would be different if she said that she really wants this and wants a better relationship and wants to be physical with me. She was very clear tonight that she doesn't even want a physical relationship, but she feels it's not normal and that she knows I want more. But if she doesn't want it, why would she really do anything about it, really?

This freaking sucks! I would do anything for her. I'm trying to be patient, but I don't want a roommate. 

I'm inclined to see what happens after a month to see if she's a woman of her word and how much she really cares. Part of me wants to bail right now! 

What's really bad is that it's totally killing all the motivation I had to take real leadership in this marriage and put it back on track. If I'm going to get screwed anyway, what's the point?

Feedback??


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

Well after last night and this morning I'm pretty much checked out of this thing. I want off this rollercoaster anyway. We got into a stupid argument this morning which ended with her telling me to f*** off. I was being a pretty serious smart a$$, but I don't think it warranted that kind of response. 

She won't apologize I'm sure. She's too stubborn and I know she thinks she's justified. 

I guess I was kidding myself that we could work this out. I wanted to believe so much that we have something special, worth fighting for, but I'm not so sure about that. I think it was just a nice idea in my head. 

If anyone can make a case for me staying in this, I will listen, but I pretty much have a foot out the door now.

Thanks for listening.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qigong said:


> I did. We discussed it tonight. She suggested that I go see that therapist to better understand what she's feeling. What??!?


And that is the point at which you say "NO! It's not MY job to get therapy to figure out why YOU won't have sex. It's YOURS."

Honestly, and I hate to say this, but until you are ready to walk, she has all the power. Until you CAN admit, accept, and SAY that you will NOT stay in a loveless marriage, that being without her is better than being with her when she disrespects you so badly, then you are stuck in a life of misery.

Think about it. You weren't BORN attached to her. You don't NEED her to keep breathing, keep eating, keep thinking. You CAN survive without her. You may not WANT to, but you can. Hell, you can survive without everything on this planet except some water and some food; try to get some perspective. Draw back. Get yourself to a place where you can see that you may WANT her, but you don't NEED her. Once you reach that, you can start making decisions that better serve you. And, along the way, you just may help her move forward, too.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> And that is the point at which you say "NO! It's not MY job to get therapy to figure out why YOU won't have sex. It's YOURS."
> 
> Honestly, and I hate to say this, but until you are ready to walk, she has all the power. Until you CAN admit, accept, and SAY that you will NOT stay in a loveless marriage, that being without her is better than being with her when she disrespects you so badly, then you are stuck in a life of misery.
> 
> Think about it. You weren't BORN attached to her. You don't NEED her to keep breathing, keep eating, keep thinking. You CAN survive without her. You may not WANT to, but you can. Hell, you can survive without everything on this planet except some water and some food; try to get some perspective. Draw back. Get yourself to a place where you can see that you may WANT her, but you don't NEED her. Once you reach that, you can start making decisions that better serve you. And, along the way, you just may help her move forward, too.


No I don't and I won't. It's funny, I was on the verge Thursday night. I almost ended it then, but even with all the bullcrap I've gotten from her lately, I didn't feel that my attitude was reasonable enough, that I was actually trying, so instead we agreed to keep trying. Tonight was the first chance we had some time together after a busy weekend with the kids. We did the emotional needs assessment together. Boy that was fun.  Though it did tell what we already knew which is that we're not right for each other. We got through the first page and that was about it. 

I probably put myself through undo bulls*** to get to a final decision, but I wanted to be certain. So that at the end, I could say for certain that tried as hard as I could. I will sleep better knowing that. Time to move on. We'll both be happier once this is said and done. 

I was living in a fantasy world for a bit there hoping s*** would work out if we just tried hard enough, but facts are facts.

I appreciate your candor (I expected nothing less) and time for one last kick in the pants. 

I will reflect on your comments about what to say to my kids. I liked your suggestions.

Best,

G


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

G, who knows what the future brings? If you split up, you two may find you liked what you had together, better, and reconcile. But what you have now isn't working for either one of you, so no point continuing THAT. 

Learn your moral code, live it, and evaluate everything you do against it. That way, you know you lived the life you should, no matter what else happens.


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## qigong (Sep 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> G, who knows what the future brings? If you split up, you two may find you liked what you had together, better, and reconcile. But what you have now isn't working for either one of you, so no point continuing THAT.
> 
> Learn your moral code, live it, and evaluate everything you do against it. That way, you know you lived the life you should, no matter what else happens.


We'll see what happens. Thanks.


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