# Deciding...is this what I want for the next 30-40 years?



## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I've been reading around a lot again lately. Been here with my marital problems too long. 

For those who know my story...I'm seeing a new counselor. I have opened up to my family about my unhappiness. I have told my husband I don't trust him and frankly am only here because of our daughters. 

I see that my H continues to lie. Inconsequential things really, mainly lies to make him "look better" in his mind. I know this is totally due to his enormous self-worth problems. There's a hole inside him that I cannot fill. And I'm tired of trying. Anyway...little, everyday lies...telling his instructor he's not able to go to class due to mandatory work meetings. BS, he skipped school, ignored his family & watched movies. But the little lies trigger me to the big lies, that tank our finances, change the way I view him & my opinion of him. 

We have cashed in one small retirement account. He is now talking of getting into the big account because he can't go to school and work. I worry about insurance, mortgage, orthodontics, the sports my oldest is involved in, preschool, etc. He says I am materialistic, if we lose the house so be it, time with his family is more important. His worked called him on his day off asking him to come in a few days ago because they were so overwhelmed. He declined. I feel like he had the dream job with the set cushy schedule, 3 days off per week, 3 weeks + vacation time & regular work hours and he tanked it because of his lies. Now that he's making 1/3 what he was he should pull some overtime sometimes. Especially since he's talking about taking 2 years off from work. He thinks financial aid will pay our bills during that time and we will supplement with the retirement account. 

Where I am right now...we have very different values...work ethic, financial values, priorities. It's always been this way, it's just since our situation has changed that it is unbearable for me. 

So I'm left with this....is this what I want for the rest of my life? I certainly won't be better off financially alone. But I will be able to keep retirement money for retirement. I'll have my half instead of 10 years from now having nothing. Does that make me materialistic?

I have tried for a solid year to turn my feelings around for him. He said he would go to counseling with me to work on "us". He chose not to go today. I've begged him to go to counseling to work on his issues. I've been going for months. He says that since he recognizes what his issues are that's enough. The counselor suggested that I tell him we are dire. Not exactly an ultimatum, neither of us like that word, but either he goes and works on his side of the street or we're very likely done. That's a hard pill to swallow. 

Do I want to live & feel this way for the next 30-40 years? Do I want to throw in the towel?
Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Funny, I was thinking about you the other day, wondering when you would return.

So here you are.

Your husband has shown you who he is. Believe him.

Look, you CAN get a job. You CAN get SSD. You CAN get child support. 

YOUR problem is you keep b!tching about your husband. He is what he is. Do you want to sit there and continue to moan and groan?

Okay. Here it is: I walked out on my husband when I had cancer. I had no job. I took half my equity (what was left of it) out of our house.

Dang, I have gluten-intolerance, cancer, kidney stones, and diverticulosis. And I hold a full-time job.

This is a matter of getting the heck off your pity pot and doing something. 

And PLEASE other TAM posters ... don't start giving me grief about how unduly hard I'm being on the poster.

I AM NOT. But I'm living proof that you can get medical care, spousal support, Social Security Disability (if need be), and actually have a life WHEN YOU LEAVE A JERK WHO IS SAPPING THE LIFE OUT OF YOU.

Your emotional/physical issues would be far less if you would kick this a$$hole to the curb and focus on your best interests and the best interests of your kids.

Seriously.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> I've been reading around a lot again lately. Been here with my marital problems too long.
> 
> For those who know my story...I'm seeing a new counselor. I have opened up to my family about my unhappiness. I have told my husband I don't trust him and frankly am only here because of our daughters.
> 
> ...


You already know the answer to this. You cannot live with a liar. It just cant be done. It wears on you emotionally and you can end up in all kinds of trouble that you had NO idea about. I know what its like to try to live with one, its insanity...they actually believe their own lies!

You also know that you are NOT materialistic. Wanting the money you earn to pay for your life and to have some savings is called being responsible. Its LIFE, plain and simple. Not sure where your H's head is, honestly. 

Start making your exit plan.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was thinking of you too. And wondering when you would return. Nothing has changed apparently. I felt then you should get out and I still do. You aren't going to win that battle.


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

Another question to ask......... is this man the example I want my children to emulate?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I didn't leave....for what seemed like a hundred years. Because I couldn't figure out HOW to afford it. 

My ex was also a similar kind of liar, and avoider, and I don't know what else. We got evicted from many places for failure to pay. Our bills were late, etc.... I tried working while he was home at nite, but he would only last a few weeks at a time before he couldn't take it anymore..... "babysitting" his own kids. Go figure. 

Anyway... one day, 23 years later.... he walked out. No fighting, no warning....he just quit coming home. And I had to figure out sh*t FAST! I had 5 teens and a grandbaby still at home..... he seemed clueless. 

Turns out.... I was a zillion times better off without him. (Maybe zillion is an exaggeration, but it sure seemed like it!) I was able to pay my bills on time...for the first time ever (he liked to hold onto his money!). I did end up allowing another single mom and her two kids to move in, to help with the mortgage..... and ex did pay SOME child support, sometimes.... 

10 years later..... I bought a house, all by myself. He is still living in the crappy little apartment he moved to when he left. I have retirement funds. My kids are grown into self-supporting respectable adults.... and the grandkids are a joy. 

The trick? When my baby went to pre-K..... I went to college. I'm a teacher now, which isn't a ton of money....but it's steady money, (plus insurance, and retirement, and sick days, etc....not a bad gig) and no day-care costs! I had to ignore the ex when I had this goal.... I KNEW I had to be self-sufficient. To this day, he will say he put me through college. F*cker. I'm still paying on student loans. I did it all by myself in SPITE of his lack of help/interest/investment..... 

I also went to marriage counseling without him. He said he didn't have a problem. It helped me to be stronger, and to be ok, and to be ME in spite of the stupidness that was my marriage.

My point is.... YOU CAN TOO!!!!

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...... he is NOT the man you want your kids to emulate! You KNOW that!!!! 

All the time mine were growing up, I thought I'll give them the best I can and hope for the best..... it worked out alright. My mother's day cards are full of praise for helping them to become the people they are....and the parents that they are. My husband (not the ex) gets Father's Day cards telling him thanks for sharing what a Dad is. They KNOW. I have never trash talked their dad..... but THEY KNOW.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes'

Stay with him.


(that's the answer you wanted, is t it?)


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Don't worry about what WILL happen.

Worry about what NEEDS to happen NOW.

Human beings have a natural tendency to adjust and make best of whatever they have/end up with. 

If you think "staying because of your daughter" is healthy for your daughter or YOU, you are in denial. Your daughter is LEARNING relationship dynamics, trust, communications etc from YOU and YOUR HUSBAND TODAY.

It's probably doing more harm then good being married.

What you are in is not a marriage. Why would you stay in with a partner like that? Boggles my mind.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Leave now, while you can get half of the retirement account. Let him waste his half until he's up against a wall.

UNLESS - and I don't know your back story...- UNLESS you feel he is clinically depressed. He doesn't seem to care about anything. He says family is everything but most men take pride in providing their share. And when he's skipping work, counseling, etc - is he spending quality time with the family? No. He's goofing off, escaping and not dealing with life.

You are only setting the example of what your daughters can expect from marriage. If you wouldn't want this life for them then show them what a real woman (or man) does - change your situation if you're unhappy with it.

Don't wait for this to get harder. Noone here who left a marriage wishes they'd stayed longer. Everyone will tell you that they'd wished they'd left sooner. Don't make this a "Why didn't I leave 30 years ago?" thread.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MsStacy said:


> I've been reading around a lot again lately. Been here with my marital problems too long.
> 
> For those who know my story...I'm seeing a new counselor. I have opened up to my family about my unhappiness. I have told my husband I don't trust him and frankly am only here because of our daughters.
> 
> ...


He is disrespecting your livelihood, your money aka YOU. It's time to ask for respect. Put him out and tell him when he is ready to be a man and take care of his family he can come back, until then you are just fine without him. He is not providing for you nor protecting you FROM HIS POOR CHOICES, therefore YOU have to decide to protect yourself from his poor choices. It sounds like to me you are fed up with the disrespect, thus making it unacceptable. Decide to no longer accept the unacceptable.

I would say this "your disrespectful floundering is no longer acceptable, when you do that I feel unloved, unimportant, abandoned, used. I need for you to get serious about me and this family, I need for you to do that by taking xyz action by the end of the summer, if you refuse to do that we will be separating, if you still refuse to do that after separation you then will be choosing to risk divorce with me since I am letting you know now, this is beyond my coping ability."


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

Wow... I'm sorry for the predicament you are in. 

I believe you will do better financially without your husband, you have to believe it too. It might look hopeless and dark right now, but once you step through to independence, I think you will see opportunity and be able to do much better.

I'm coming from the reverse. My STBXW had no desire to work, brings in minimal income. By contrast I bring in a good income and we live quite well off my income. My STBXW was all comfy and lazy, with nothing to strive for since all her financial needs were met. Now that I've decided to move on, she's become very aware, sad, and nervous about how she will cope without the financial support I've provided for so long. Kind of a wake up call for her to finally get her butt in gear to do something.

Best of luck to you.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I understand you all too well MsStacy.

I was married to a compulsive liar with less and less ambition as the marital years went on. I stuck it out for over 14 years. (I was honestly aware of his deceit 10 years prior)...I am a well-educated professional woman, but my personal ethics had me stuck for a long time. I was also not willing to admit that he didn't love me....not really, in the way a husband should love his wife. I was merely a means of income (I was always the primary breadwinner, status (family), etc).

I understand this difficult "stuckness" you are experiencing. You know deep down that change is most likely not going to happen...in fact divorce most likely won't create that change either...and that awareness REALLY hurts.

So I tell you, from my experience, that I am in agreement with the others here...you need to leave...you will be in a better place when you do. I have no doubt that you, and your daughters, will be stronger, healthier, happier once you sever this tie to your husband.

I also felt like I was going to hurt my children with divorce. I can tell you that it was the best thing I could've done. They have reflected to me how strong and courageous I am. They SEE me....your girls will see you as well.

You really can do this, MsStacy.... 

YOU NEED TO DO THIS!!!


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

You are all right, I know this. 

As soon as I feel like I'm taking steps in the right direction I get overwhelmed with guilt. I do love him, he is my family and no one is perfect, I don't want to hurt him. 

Monday night he had my oldest daughter at my parents pool. She called me that he was very sick, she needed me to come help. I have never seen food poisoning before, but this was the most violent thing! It was late and I couldn't get him to the car, he's double my size, so I called an ambulance. He was in the ER all night and I took care of him yesterday. He's much better today and back at work. 

It softened my heart. I was typing the original post as he was getting so very sick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

cons said:


> I understand this difficult "stuckness" you are experiencing. You know deep down that change is most likely not going to happen...in fact divorce most likely won't create that change either...and that awareness REALLY hurts.


How did you finally disengage? Get out of feeling stuck? How did you do it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> You are all right, I know this.
> 
> As soon as I feel like I'm taking steps in the right direction I get overwhelmed with guilt. I do love him, he is my family and no one is perfect, I don't want to hurt him.
> 
> ...


Really?? A bout of food poisoning does not change who he is! Sorry he got sick, but SNAP OUT OF IT. Nothing changed!


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Leave now, while you can get half of the retirement account. Let him waste his half until he's up against a wall.
> UNLESS you feel he is clinically depressed. He doesn't seem to care about anything. He says family is everything but most men take pride in providing their share. And when he's skipping work, counseling, etc - is he spending quality time with the family? No. He's goofing off, escaping and not dealing with life.


I don't believe he is clinically depressed. 
He is something though. Possible personality disorder, but not severe. He definitely has some major issues that rule his life, cloud & alter his thinking. He admits these. I've begged him to go for therapy to no avail so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> Really?? A bout of food poisoning does not change who he is! Sorry he got sick, but SNAP OUT OF IT. Nothing changed!


I know that. The vulnerability hurts me tho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

What was most effective to keep me objective in the reality of my situation was seeing this through the lens of my kids. Is this the type of marital relationship dynamic I want to model for my kids? Would I advise my child to "stick it out" in a marriage if I knew the reality of the dynamic....the one-sided efforts...the continued disrespect trending toward emotional abuse...


The more I remained outside of myself and my attachment emotions and looked at my spouse in an objective way, I realized that this man was a user. 

...I had hope even during our divorce process, that he would have an "aha" moment...that he would take action to demonstrate that he wanted our marriage...that he wanted me...

...it never happened...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> How did you finally disengage? Get out of feeling stuck? How did you do it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


By finally realizing and admitting to yourself that THIS IS NEVER, EVER, GOING TO CHANGE. Admit that you want a better life than the worthless one you are clinging to. And Stacy, I hate to say this, but you really dont love this man any more, and you will realize this once you are away from him. We get stuck in the mentality that we love them because at one point we DID, and now its just part of your daily life. You care, yeah, but it isnt a real love any more. Its more like an endearment. 

I finally hit my wall with my X2 when we took a trip to visit his son, which was a four hour drive. He lost his mind once he realized we still had over an hour to go, and he spent the remainder of the drive yelling at me and belittling me, then said something nasty directed toward my daughter. That was it. DONE. It hit me right at that moment that he was never going to change, and every time he lost his mind on me like that, I always ended up forgiving him after a while, happy that things were back to "normal" only to have it happen time and time again. Constant vicious circle that never, ever ends, until YOU END IT. Right then my plan started in my head and I followed it til the end. 

YOU KNOW you need to end this, you are just scared to move beyond the comfort of the familiar misery.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Fear of the unknown keeps many in unhappy marriages.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

My guess is you will stick it out with your husband. And periodically come back here complaining about the same-old, same-old.

You are a victim. You are rabidly codependent. And you do nothing about it.

How does one leave a crappy marriage? They gather family and friends for support, if at all possible. They get an attorney who will offer pro bono services and assist with getting their client's house in order, financially speaking.

And, to be very blunt, you just need to have the guts to up and leave. Because as long as you stay and whine and complain, you ARE getting something out of this. Truth.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I know you are all right. 

What my brain says and what my heart feels are in conflict. 

I love him like a part of my family, but no, I haven't been in love with him for a long time. 

He was sick and recovering from the food poisoning & hospital stay Mon-Wed. I took awesome care of him and he acknowledged that. I have a baby shower I'm throwing tomorrow morning so last night, after I put the kids to bed, I started baking because I was behind schedule. He came in asking for sex and we ended up arguing for 2 hours. I'm a b!tch. He came home from work this afternoon and asked me to leave for the weekend. He doesn't have anywhere to go, because he has no one, so it's easier for me to stay a couple nights somewhere. He says he's too hurt to be around me. 

I'm sad, conflicted, and so confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> I know you are all right.


Okay. So what? I know lots of thing are "right." I knew it was wrong for my ex husband to hit me. But I stayed. 



MsStacy said:


> What my brain says and what my heart feels are in conflict.


That's just another way of skirting your codependency. Until you face that, you are going to live in a hell of your own making. 



MsStacy said:


> He was sick and recovering from the food poisoning & hospital stay Mon-Wed. *I took awesome care of him *and he acknowledged that.


Yep. Codies are masters of sucking up the intolerable. They keep the stiff upper lip. Silently suffer the abuse. Martyrs to the bitter end. And they usually end up financially, emotionally, and physically destroyed by their own illness. 



MsStacy said:


> He came in asking for sex and we ended up arguing for 2 hours. I'm a b!tch. He came home from work this afternoon and asked me to leave for the weekend. He doesn't have anywhere to go, because he has no one, so it's easier for me to stay a couple nights somewhere. He says he's too hurt to be around me.


For every loser like your husband, there is a codependent enabler/fixer like you. You get your sense of worth from putting up with his sh!t and being the "good" guy for being able to stand up to whatever he dishes out.

Me? I'd tell him to [email protected] off and go spend the weekend sleeping out on the lawn or going to a cheap motel. I would have put up with the same stuff myself 15 years ago. 

Then I discovered my sense of self-worth wasn't in tolerating b.s., it was in NOT tolerating it. 



MsStacy said:


> I'm sad, conflicted, and so confused.


Nah. You're not. You are just finding yourself at a point where being a codie isn't working anymore. And you can't control what is going on in order to keep your joke of a marriage going. 

Because, believe it or not, you want to be the silent suffering nurse/victim/perfect wife. Sucks, doesn't it? 

Hon, there isn't one frickin' thing "confusing" about what you have on your plate. You are married to a horse's a$$ who craps on you to get his sense of self-worth. You allow the crapping to get your sense of self-worth.

If you got out of this sick situation, life would become amazingly simple. I live alone with my two cats. I have no man in my life. I work full-time. I support myself. I have no contact with my estranged husband. Sure, I get the occasional annoying email from him. I don't respond.

And I'm glad I have MY LIFE back. MINE.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Keep this in mind: Falling down and not getting up is losing. Falling down and getting back up dirty, bruised, and bleeding, is winning.

Consider it. Seriously.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I haven't read your entire story, but offhand, it seems like he is acting like a dog ready to give up and go die in the woods.

Don't know if it depression or shame or both that has a hold of him, but he will not budge until consequences GET REAL.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal said:


> Okay. So what? I know lots of thing are "right." I knew it was wrong for my ex husband to hit me. But I stayed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have my homework cut out for me this weekend. I have all 3 of Beattie books on codependency. I started reading No More last year and didn't get far. After the shower I'm throwing tomorrow I'm going to my parents house. It's only 15 minutes away. They are out of town so it will only be me. H has already told my daughters I'll be away for a couple days. They already started clinging, saying they missed me and left notes on my pillow. The night he was in the emergency room was the first night my youngest daughter has been without me overnight. It kills me to want a divorce. That means there are nights, days, weeks, etc that I won't see them, hug them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I'll get those books read this weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> I'll get those books read this weekend.


Denial is truly an amazing thing. And reading all these books is going to accomplish what? Give you the impetus to leave?

Seriously.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal said:


> Denial is truly an amazing thing. And reading all these books is going to accomplish what? Give you the impetus to leave?
> 
> Seriously.


 You just told me in many different ways I'm codependent 8 ways from Sunday. 
I have the books the previous counselor suggested I read. 
It made sense to me. 
Apparently it doesn't to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

> For those who know my story...I'm seeing a new counselor. I have opened up to my family about my unhappiness. I have told my husband I don't trust him and frankly am only here because of our daughters.


Keep in mind most that have posted have divorced and have children I did not. I dodged a bullet. I will say I think you picked wrong. 

Now that you have kids and there is no abuse to you or the kids my opinion is that you stay married till your kids are out. So many kids are getting 4 parents and 2 homes to live in. I know your unhappy. Your children need a stable enviroment. Talk to him and explain your staying married for your kids and you want to "act" like a family for the kids sake. He's surely unhappy too and if you two are in agreement about staying for the kids atleast they will know later that they were the most important thing to them, not your own personal happiness. It teaches kids its ok to get what you want regardless of your children. You made a bad choice dont make a bad one for your kids too. Your children can figure it out later. You can tell your children when there out and your divorced that you stayed for them and shielded them from the heartbreak of divorce. Right now they need there mother and father to take care of them. There will be plenty of men to keep you warm at night when your children are gone. 
It's ok to complain here but there are very few who have done this.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Gonnabealright said:


> Keep in mind most that have posted have divorced and have children I did not. I dodged a bullet. I will say I think you picked wrong.
> 
> Now that you have kids and there is no abuse to you or the kids my opinion is that you stay married till your kids are out. So many kids are getting 4 parents and 2 homes to live in. I know your unhappy. Your children need a stable enviroment. Talk to him and explain your staying married for your kids and you want to "act" like a family for the kids sake. He's surely unhappy too and if you two are in agreement about staying for the kids atleast they will know later that they were the most important thing to them, not your own personal happiness. It teaches kids its ok to get what you want regardless of your children. You made a bad choice dont make a bad one for your kids too. Your children can figure it out later. You can tell your children when there out and your divorced that you stayed for them and shielded them from the heartbreak of divorce. Right now they need there mother and father to take care of them. There will be plenty of men to keep you warm at night when your children are gone.
> It's ok to complain here but there are very few who have done this.


THAT IS IT!! You get it Gonnabealright, you pulled the feelings straight from my heart, and just made me cry. There's no abuse, he's a good dad. He can, and has been, an awesome dad, but I know that right now he's hurting because he knows I'm on the fence and that makes him check out. He's starting to check back in where it involves the girls. We're not always nice, I don't respect him, we both feel taken advantage of, we've been in a crummy place for too long...if we can stop all that...so many ifs. 

I don't want another man. Maybe someday, far far FAR away. My girls are my priority and I want to do best by them. I'm afraid I did choose wrong. 16 years down the road he's a different person than I believed and our core values are quite different in some areas than I thought. I don't want my girls to have 2 homes, 3 or 4 parents. Both are adopted from birth so we have extra parents already. What a lot to put on a child. (Not that it decides anything, but I think of that too...how do I tell their birth mothers, who chose a two paren't family to give this gift, that I couldn't keep it together?) How do I go days/nights/weeks not seeing my daughters, and the same with him? I am a SAHM, tonight away is a nice break time from the mommy responsibility, but it hurts. I miss them. 

And now I'm crying again. I can't articulate how your post struck me Gonnabealright. But you did it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. Your kids are young and you're going to fake a life with your husband until they are grown?

Children know bullshet. Children know.

I wish my parents had divorced earlier than they did when I was 12. They acted like the perfect family but there was no love. No "there" there. It effed up my view of what marriage is because here I am in the same situation. My parents separated and tried to work it out for me. Gawd. How sad.

This is your life too. Being miserable and living a lie for the next 20 years or whatever is a waste. We only get today. 

Both things sucks for kids. Divorce and a bad marriage. My daughter is 15 and knows I'm not happy. She's even asked me why I stay. Should I say "for you, dear". No way. That's a guilt trip I don't want to give. So...I am an adult dealing with adult issues. I cannot live with this man for another 30-40 years...not even 10. I would go insane.

ETA: I remember when my parents divorced. It was great. The tension was gone. I could no longer choke on the air. My mom truly smiled and my dad was more attentive to me. 

I mean, do what you do, but don't be a martyr.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So you would choose to let your children grow up in a house with a false sense of security?? You would choose to FAKE your way through their childhoods?? Oh, they are going to resent the HELL out of you once they are grown! Sorry, you may think its noble, but its not, its bullsh!t. How in the world are they supposed to learn about having REAL relationships in their own lives after that?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Maybe you just are afraid, and that's normal and ok.

But to fake it...I'm sorry but....not a good idea. You are not a martyr. Your kids deserve a HAPPY MOM.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Ugh! And there's the other side I struggle with that girl & 3x. 

I'm having a hard time being away from my girls tonight. No, I don't want to teach them this is what marriage looks like. 
I'd rather fix it, for them. But I clearly haven't been able to do this. 

I'm not afraid of being on my own, being divorced, etc. I don't want to hurt him but what twists me into a million knots are our daughters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Your daughters will grow into women by watching YOU.

Example is the best teacher.

Your life is WORTH SOMETHING. Your heart and feelings matter too.

Your daughters will understand and while it may be difficult in the transition, it gets better.

But to see your mother be miserable or just "there" for your whole childhood would be sad.

Feeling the contempt between the parents would be weird. Learning that that is what "love" is would be HORRIBLE because it would be a LIE.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Children are very perceptive. They see things their parents don't think they see. I stayed for my son 30 years ago. He told me recently he wished I had gotten divorced then. I thought it was better for him to have his parents together but it wasn't.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Too many things in life are allowed to be mediocre. Customer service, fast food, cheap clothes.

Love shouldn't be one of them. And I'm learning this too. I'm on the road to life. It's hard. It's scary. All the worries swim around. BUT...I am a woman first. My life MATTERS, just as my kids' lives matter. They will grow and learn from ME. and as girls, I want them to see a HAPPY WOMAN raising them. A woman in LOVE. A woman with a glow. 

Not the woman I am now. Just trying to figure out wtf is happening. Existing.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I mean, would you want your mother giving up a lifetime of true intimacy and human connection and happiness. Love making. ALl the good things that come from a happy relationship....for YOU?

I sure wouldn't and I'd be upset if that is what she did. Well, mine kinda did. She gave up on dating after her divorce to raise me. She never dated again and now she's a bitter woman. I don't even talk to her. Not because of that, but yea. Im sure some HAPPINESS and LOVE in her life would have made her a nicer person.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Also, will you two be faithful in this fake marriage? Or will you have agreements? Or just have empty sex? 

All things I have thought about and realized I don't want that life.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My husband won't go to therapy either.

It's been three years since we brought up therapy and he won't go. Nothing has changed within him. Knowing your issues is not working through them. I can't be with someone who can't be uncomfortable for a while in order to save our marriage.

(I was in therapy 3 years ago when he left the first time ...i was in therapy for a year and it was AMAZING how much I worked through and got over from things I've been carrying since I was a little girl. I did the work. I continue to do the work. He won't even try. I lose respect for people like that. It certainly does not help in the intimacy department.)


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I feel so stuck. And so conflicted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HangingOnHope (Oct 26, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> I feel so stuck. And so conflicted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For mostly different reasons...and yet for one very poignant similarity...I feel your struggle.

Mine lies too. Mine took apart our retirements too. Mine refuses to go to/continue counseling too.

Mine was a great guy in many ways too, especially as a father. 

But there comes a time when the writing on the wall is no longer just in paint or ink....but in bold, flashing neon strobe lights. It won't be ignored. You can fence sit, imo, for years. But it won't go away. I've learned lately that Inaction is not an action. JMO. Best wishes


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

You may want to see if there is a codependents anonymous or emotions anonymous meeting in your area.

You need support and reading books on he subject, while providing some information, will not be the impetus you require to leave.

Just remember right now you are willingly exposing your children to a dysfunctional relationship. Remember that. You can say you are not doing so willingly, but actions speak louder than words.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

lancaster said:


> You need support and reading books on he subject, while providing some information, will not be the impetus you require to leave.


No, but it's a great form of denial and a way for her to justify staying in the marriage.

Apparently, I lack the logic to see all of this. Sad. Truly sad.

But this is a woman who only needs one single person to tell her to stick it out in order to confirm what she wants to do. Stick it out.

I say go for it. Stay with your husband. Do it for the kids. Do it for yourself. Honestly, it's no skin off my nose if you stay with the man until the day you die. If it's what you want, fine.

And, yeah, I actually do see the "logic." Regardless of whether you understand that or not. Enough is enough. Best of luck with whatever you chose to do. I know it is now time for me to get back on my side of the street and stay out of this entirely.

Good luck.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

MsStacy-

Listen!!! Proidigal is speaking truth to you...

I was where you are now. It took me TEN years to SEE that my husband (although did not overtly abuse me)...his method of a abuse was subtle and covert....it was still abuse...THAT is your husband that you are describing here...

...My 13 year old yesterday was telling a girlfriend about a time where her dad (my ex) said two contradicting things to her...and his response to her was I don't remember saying that...

It does not stop..unless he sees himself and takes ACTION to change..

I can't implore you enough to separate yourself from him...ASAP...

You will be soooo happy you began to advocate for yourself...

You can do this...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MsStacy said:


> I feel so stuck. And so conflicted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



In my case I chose to stay different or leave.

I can tell you don't want to stay the same

But you don't want to leave.

Which leaves one option... stay different while leaving the exit close by.

Your daughters seeing your husband choose better behavior would be the BEST situation. We are all fallible and all can choose behavior. Therefore the expectations for that kind of environment must be expressed.

What you are missing are the "tools" with which to stay differently.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's ok to feel stuck. One day at a time.

But honestly, don't be a martyr.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't want to stay the same. I don't want to hurt him and I especially don't want to hurt my girls. 

I know I frustrate the hell out of you all. I frustrate myself too. And apparently I'm always frustrating my H. 

He agreed to go to counseling on Monday. I made it very clear he cannot go in there to "listen" or with an attitude and a chip on his shoulder. We'll see. 

We've been busy the last few days, not seeing each other much. That seems to help us get along. 

It's all just sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I don't want to stay the same. I don't want to hurt him and I especially don't want to hurt my girls.
> 
> I know I frustrate the hell out of you all. I frustrate myself too. And apparently I'm always frustrating my H.
> 
> ...


It wont do anything. When you want your life to turn around, see your lawyer. Until then, sorry for your misery. 

There seems to be a cycle to everything in the universe. This is no different then the death throes of a dying body, of a dying empire, or of a dying star. 

The sooner you take the advice of prior posters the better off you will be.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Great post Opti... The relationship is dead, so there are only two ways forward after burying that sucker. 1. Build an entirely new relationship (this is what my husband and I are doing) 2. Find an entirely new relationship with someone else through divorce and total closure on the old.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I would like to at least try and build a new relationship. I've been in IC for awhile now. I've begged him to go which hasn't happened and probably won't. We are going in tonight because he will "go together when we are working on US". He says he recognizes what his issues are but I can't get him to actually DO anything about them. 

It's been pretty calm for a week. I think this lulls me into a false sense of security. I'm afraid it's just a calm in between our storms, which is what usually happens. We have done some things as a family, which has been nice. Some activities he has opted out of, which irritates me. He has been more helpful around the house and with the kids and I have told him I appreciate it. 

I don't know what to bring up at counseling tonight. What is on my mind...even tho it's been nicer around the house and calmer in general, I do not desire my H. We had sex last night. To him it's a way to connect in addition to the physical need. To me, it's a chore, something that needs to be done to keep the peace. That's not right and so very sad. 

Maybe the simple truth, what it all boils down to, is that he deserves someone who desires and cherishes him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> Maybe the simple truth, what it all boils down to, is that he deserves someone who desires and cherishes him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And so do you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> I would like to at least try and build a new relationship. I've been in IC for awhile now. I've begged him to go which hasn't happened and probably won't. We are going in tonight because he will "go together when we are working on US". He says he recognizes what his issues are but I can't get him to actually DO anything about them.
> 
> It's been pretty calm for a week. I think this lulls me into a false sense of security. I'm afraid it's just a calm in between our storms, which is what usually happens. We have done some things as a family, which has been nice. Some activities he has opted out of, which irritates me. He has been more helpful around the house and with the kids and I have told him I appreciate it.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should look at it like YOU deserve to have someone that YOU desire and cherish as well. Stop giving him priority over yourself.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I should think that way. I don't know why I don't. Maybe because I'm so soured off this marriage I wouldn't want to do that again? I have no desire to have another man in my life, maybe that's why I don't think that way. 

We got into it in counseling just as the damn bell rang. (These appointments should be 2 hours!). Since we've been doing well, being nice...I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop. There goes my calmness, here comes his chaos, and our cycle continues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MsStacey, something that has helped me stay calm since we have the same cycle is not trusting in his behavior, but trusting in God working. For me it is God who is unchanging and trustworthy, not my husband.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yeah...this marriage just isn't going to work. 

After the "chat" we just had.....
God is the only one holding us together right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blossom Leigh said:


> MsStacey, something that has helped me stay calm since we have the same cycle is not trusting in his behavior, but trusting in God working. For me it is God who is unchanging and trustworthy, not my husband.


I feel like I've been in that same place for 2 years now. I'm a Christian, my faith has gotten me far, and often times the only thing I can really hang on to. Definitely the one I can trust. 
But then my beliefs and faith conflict with where I think I'm heading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

MsStacy-

I understand the paradox you face.

You vowed "for better or for worse"...perhaps this is the "worse" part. I argued that within myself for years. But I also saw that when I would confront my husband about his lies and deceit and the pain they caused...he would say he was sorry...won't do it again...he'll be honest...yet, he took NO actions to change. The lies continued. They morphed from lies that made him "look good", to lies about money, to lying about his health (all increasing in their manipulation)...Even after we divorced...I had hope that he would see how destructive his actions/behaviors were/are...yet, he has not changed much (from what I see). 

I don't mean to project my experience onto you...but it sounds so similar...

My suggestion would be to at the very least, legally separate (protect yourself financially). During this separation, do a Plan B (a marriagebuilders concept). 

But, to be honest, divorce may be your best option...

I am so sorry you have had to experience this from someone you love and care for...it is really difficult to take those blinders off and see his actions for what they are...unloving, self-serving, manipulative, and abusive.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Ugh! And there's the other side I struggle with that girl & 3x.
> 
> I'm having a hard time being away from my girls tonight. No, I don't want to teach them this is what marriage looks like.
> I'd rather fix it, for them. But I clearly haven't been able to do this.
> ...


That burden of "guilt" is yours; not your daughters to bear. Please don't place that on your daughters - to know that someday in the future it will be revealed to them that their mother remained in bad marriage because of them. Don't do that!

Do you want your girls to feel bad? Guilty? Burdened? Regretful? Because of THEM, you did not leave?

Please listen to others and rethink your position. Again, this is YOUR burden and YOUR decision and it needs to be YOU that steps up and sets the example, especially in light of the fact that you do have daughters to raised to become independent and intelligent women.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Yeah...this marriage just isn't going to work.
> 
> After the "chat" we just had.....
> God is the only one holding us together right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What happened with this "chat"?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> What happened with this "chat"?


Nothing new. He's been holding on to the things we argued about in counseling since Monday night. He started projecting his feelings on me, as usual, asking if I was uptight, in a bad mood, etc. After I put the kids to bed he came in & started dumping on me about everything I do that's wrong, how I'm unforgiving and will always bring up the mistakes he's made, that I find fault in everything he does yet I'm the one running this marriage ditch. 

I tried very hard not to be defensive, to listen, let him get his feelings out and do what the counselor suggested. I said I felt he was frustrated and needed to vent, I was willing to listen and let him dump because usually he has to complain about everything under the sun in order to figure out what the one thing that is really bothering him is. It just frustrated him even more & he went to bed. 

Same thing, different day. Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I want to be a wife who looks forward to her husband coming home from work. 

Maybe I just want to be alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Or maybe you just need to SHOCK him...

Human beings only seem to respond to calamity. The amount of change a person or culture is willing to perform is directly proportionate to the amount of FEELING inspired by sensory data received regarding the environment to be changed.

Right now he can do what he wants because you keep taking it. The only way he will reconsider his mentality and approach to you is if you PROVE through ACTION that its not working; you drop D papers right in front of him, be cordial but firm.

You dont have to follow through- you can always stop the divorce if things change. But doing this will bring calamity to his doorstep, and that is whats necessary to make him FEEL that there is a problem with his approach. 

If he doesnt express any care when you drop D papers in his lap, your marriage is already over. Either way, it will either be the catalyst necessary for a better marriage or the catalyst for you to move on with your life.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Or maybe you just need to SHOCK him...
> 
> Human beings only seem to respond to calamity. The amount of change a person or culture is willing to perform is directly proportionate to the amount of FEELING inspired by sensory data received regarding the environment to be changed.
> 
> ...


How do I know that's the right thing to do?
How do I know that I'm not "always" all these negative things he says about me?
I do see his faults before I see his positives these days. Am I totally unforgiving? I believed I had forgiven mistakes from 8 years ago, but then when they resurface (in the form of lying) I feel there is a pattern and I connect the dots. Is that being unforgiving? Or is that being aware?
How do I know that I'm not running this into the ditch because I can't forgive and only find fault?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't know
I frustrate the kind, giving people here whom I so appreciate, and they leave...(Prodigal). 
I frustrate him & I'm "always" wrong.
(There seems to be a pattern that I frustrate people!)
I'm unforgiving. 
I'm a martyr. 
I'm codependent. 
I'm uptight
I'm angry
I "don't do" foreplay
My vows mean nothing to me. 

Right now I just want to be me......frustrating, faults, martyr, codependent, untrusting, unforgiving, un-whatever the next criticism is.....simply me. 
And an awesome Mommy to my girls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Its a holiday weekend, not as much talking from this gal... 

There is so much I can share with you, its hard to know where to start. But one area that helped me was separating my H's "who" from his "do." In other words, I began defining which behaviors were acceptable or unacceptable while reassuring him of his who. "You know what I adore you very much and when you lie to me I feel hurt and betrayed. I need honesty. If that is not possible, I can no longer be expected to trust you going forward."


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Serious question here.....
Went to the doc a couple months ago and I'm in peri menopause. Seems cruel, I'm only 41. I feel like I'm in crazy town, my very determined, knows what she wants 2 1/2 year old seriously pushes my buttons at least 1/2 the day, every day. 

My dr told me she also hit this at 40-41 and she hated her husband. Left him. That is all back together now, but before I even told her about the marital troubles at home, first words out of her mouth was....don't divorce your husband. 

So...my question....how do I know that I'm not the crazy, hormonal, wicked woman he claims I am, and that I seriously feel like sometimes?

Just the sweating and hot flashes alone could drive a person over the edge...add in everything else....I feel crazy. 

But then on the other hand....all this stuff was happening before this lovely time of life. Maybe I could deal with it better then. Now I can't. Now I want to simplify...cut all the crap out.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Self assessment is healthy and health conditions do need to be considered. Nothing wrong with that. Do your due diligence on figuring out what are contributing factors and which aren't. When you get to the end of that process you will have a more accurate picture of what you are dealing with.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Its a holiday weekend, not as much talking from this gal...
> 
> There is so much I can share with you, its hard to know where to start. But one area that helped me was separating my H's "who" from his "do." In other words, I began defining which behaviors were acceptable or unacceptable while reassuring him of his who. "You know what I adore you very much and when you lie to me I feel hurt and betrayed. I need honesty. If that is not possible, I can no longer be expected to trust you going forward."


How did you do that? Start wherever you want in your story, I'm happy for any help. 

My biggest thing right now, aside from the silly, totally inconsequential lying (meaning he lies to make himself look better but all it does is make him look like an ass to the outside world)...is that he's a judgemental, unsociable.....ASS. 
My parents joined us for 4th of July activities. We spent 8 hours together and he never once said a single word to my step father. My step father is a very social guy...also "socially polite", so when H doesn't at least chit chat with him it's a problem. Then yesterday, Sunday, we took the kids to my parents pool, BBQ'd and had dinner together. Another 8 hours that my H sat there, quiet, not socializing, not speaking. And he knows this is a problem if he doesn't even try to have a minor "hi, how are you" with my step father. We're at their house, using their pool, eating their dinner, and he's an ass. Anyway....this morning I signed my youngest up for preschool. It's going to be a huge $$$$$ burden to pay for it. He told me to ask my parents if they would pay for 1/2. This is the man who takes time off whenever possible. I'm going to a family party next weekend, he already took time off while we're gone. Work calls him to help and work an extra 1/2 shift and he won't even answer the phone. Yet....he wants my step father, who he won't even grace with a simple "hello" to spend his hard earned money paying for our children. It pisses me off. Just totally pisses me off. But if I say anything about him taking care of the responsibilities of his own family then I'm the wicked witch. 
Ugh...just pisses me off.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Self assessment is healthy and health conditions do need to be considered. Nothing wrong with that. Do your due diligence on figuring out what are contributing factors and which aren't. When you get to the end of that process you will have a more accurate picture of what you are dealing with.


Self reflection...I'm working on that. I think I'm a pretty easy person. I won't ***** unless you've pushed me over the edge. Granted the edge is closer these days than what it used to be. Doc said this will likely last for 10 years. We will definitely be divorced if that's the case.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I read your story as it unfolded. What I got from it is that your husband has a seriously lazy side when it comes to supporting his family. So whatever issues you have with peri (and, yes, there's usually ten years of it -- some women have an easy time and some women have a very difficult and crazy time) that doesn't change your husband's basic character. He is who he is. Could he change? Would he?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I read your story as it unfolded. What I got from it is that your husband has a seriously lazy side when it comes to supporting his family. So whatever issues you have with peri (and, yes, there's usually ten years of it -- some women have an easy time and some women have a very difficult and crazy time) that doesn't change your husband's basic character. He is who he is. Could he change? Would he?


I truly appreciate you sticking with me. 
He won't change. Even if he could, I don't believe he would. 
I've been trying to live with it. Find a way to live around it. I think the one good thing about the menopause stuff is that I'm not willing to put up with the crap any longer. Which could be a good thing. But then I think of turning my daughters lives upside down and that's what scares me & holds me back. I'm coming to the point where, I will be able to look them in the eye & say I tried everything tho. And then I become afraid that I'm the raving, lunatic, newly menopausal b!tch, and I get afraid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I had an extremely difficult time during peri -- made far more difficult because I prefer not taking medication. But if you feel you need it then definitely get something. Because ten years can seem like centuries. 

I know the fear of leaving. The thought of ending a 45 year marriage was not easy but I wanted the chance to be happy and I am. It's a different life but it's finally mine.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I had an extremely difficult time during peri -- made far more difficult because I prefer not taking medication. But if you feel you need it then definitely get something. Because ten years can seem like centuries.
> 
> I know the fear of leaving. The thought of ending a 45 year marriage was not easy but I wanted the chance to be happy and I am. It's a different life but it's finally mine.


I don't know how you did it. 45 years...just wow. Wow! We just hit 16. 
Truly...the 2 things keeping me here right now are my girls, and finances. 
My girls...that's self explanatory. 
Finances....well....
I've looking into it all and run the numbers on everything. If we were to divorce, sell the house, separate the retirement acct, I would be ok. Low income & poor...but we're going under now so that would be a step up. 
I would not ask for child support. I bring home more with my disability & workers comp than he makes. (Yet he won't work a single extra minute.) If in a divorce settlement I waive child support, but mandate he carry insurance for us thru his employer, we would be ok. 
Just a sad, sorry state if affairs. 
I'll provide for our girls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I had an extremely difficult time during peri -- made far more difficult because I prefer not taking medication. But if you feel you need it then definitely get something. Because ten years can seem like centuries.
> 
> I know the fear of leaving. The thought of ending a 45 year marriage was not easy but I wanted the chance to be happy and I am. It's a different life but it's finally mine.


How did you finally get the nerve to walk away after 45 whole years?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I woke up one day and knew I couldn't live that life any more. I had huge opposition to divorce from family and friends even when I explained about the cheating. Everyone felt I had been in it that long so why not stay until the end. I couldn't. 

Thirty years ago I stayed for my son. He recently told me he wished I had gotten out at the time and not wasted those thirty years so I am not any longer an advocate of staying for the children. When DD2 happened a few years ago I felt it was time to seriously reconsider my life. So I took some time to do that and woke up one day with the decision. I didn't waiver and haven't regretted it even thought it's a very different life for sure.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MsStacy said:


> How did you do that? Start wherever you want in your story, I'm happy for any help.
> 
> My biggest thing right now, aside from the silly, totally inconsequential lying (meaning he lies to make himself look better but all it does is make him look like an ass to the outside world)...is that he's a judgemental, unsociable.....ASS.
> My parents joined us for 4th of July activities. We spent 8 hours together and he never once said a single word to my step father. My step father is a very social guy...also "socially polite", so when H doesn't at least chit chat with him it's a problem. Then yesterday, Sunday, we took the kids to my parents pool, BBQ'd and had dinner together. Another 8 hours that my H sat there, quiet, not socializing, not speaking. And he knows this is a problem if he doesn't even try to have a minor "hi, how are you" with my step father. We're at their house, using their pool, eating their dinner, and he's an ass. Anyway....this morning I signed my youngest up for preschool. It's going to be a huge $$$$$ burden to pay for it. He told me to ask my parents if they would pay for 1/2. This is the man who takes time off whenever possible. I'm going to a family party next weekend, he already took time off while we're gone. Work calls him to help and work an extra 1/2 shift and he won't even answer the phone. Yet....he wants my step father, who he won't even grace with a simple "hello" to spend his hard earned money paying for our children. It pisses me off. Just totally pisses me off. But if I say anything about him taking care of the responsibilities of his own family then I'm the wicked witch.
> Ugh...just pisses me off.


I chose to be strategic with my perspective. I praised what I liked in my husband, but destructive patterns I separated out in my mind as no longer acceptable and started becoming very clear with boundaries regarding those behavioral choices. In other words, I separate his heart and his soul, personality, the good stuff about him from the choices he makes on his behavior. Our men choose their behaviors just as we do. Therefore if my husband wants to be in my space he must "be" in it a certain way and that is with the attitude of loving compassion that is NOT enabling of my own poor behavior (constructive) and not abusive, mean, abandonment, yelling, controlling (destructive). It is quite a balance and it takes time for both spouses to learn these things since our society is lacking as a whole in this area. I've read, gone to counseling, have horses which help delineate these behaviors.

For instance... my horses can choose constructive behaviors (being careful around my space/cooperative spirit/respectful) or they can choose destructive behaviors (bad body control risking injury to me/uncooperative risking injury to me/disrespectful threatening injury to me) 

Can you see what his choice of destructive behavior causes... injury to you... that's where you have the right to draw a line...

"When you choose xyz behavior

It causes xyz injury in me

I need you to refrain from that choice of behavior

If you cannot refrain

I will make xyz choice for myself going forward"


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

You're a strong woman Blossom. 
It isn't even so much about his behavior the last year, but lack of it. I guess that could be a behavior tho...no involvement. 
He gets to pick and choose when he will participate with the family, or choose when he gets to check out because he's simply to "overwhelmed and over worked" that he gets to go t bed at 6:30pm. 
It would be simple for me to be a single mother, because, quite frankly, I already am. 
It's just the finances. 
And those are becoming less & less important. 
He's about to start taping into our retirement acct. I've always drawn the line there in my head. I have to see if I can keep that line drawn. I will get 1/2, or he will bankrupt us and I will get nothing. Are finances enough to blow your family up over?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Finances are very often a primary cause of divorce, yes. The problem is different financial styles. One person in the marriage can create financial havoc that affects the lives of the others in the family. So the responsible spouse may choose a divorce to separate himself/herself from the mess and have control over their financial lives. 

In your case, if I recall correctly, your husband blew up his other career and his steady paycheck and decided to go into nursing. And has always regarded the retirement account as a backup source of funds to live off of while he's in school so he can work minimal hours as an aide? I assume he's in school now? 

Nursing school is difficult, as I sure he was told before he began, and not everyone can or will work anywhere close to normal hours in addition. Wasn't his idea that he would work some and make up the difference with that money? The problem is that you aren't okay with his idea. Did you tell him that when he first brought it up?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes, my split with my ex had a large financial component.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Open minded...he is still taking prereq's. One per semester. He is so "overwhelmed" right now with 1 class & a straight 40 hours a week he shuts down. Puts his headphones on, watches movies on the iPad, meanwhile I have two kids who have activities, need attention, dinner, bath, bed, etc. So I don't have a lot of faith in nursing school. And you are partially right...that was his plan awhile ago, but now it's been revised. Again. He is going to nursing school on financial aid. Has he looked into & planned this out? No, "but if he's not working he will get financial aid...because there's no way he can work and go to nursing school too!" So there's where the retirement acct dwindles down to nothing. Then he says his CalPERS retirement (which could've been awesome if he had stuck it out 6 more years!!!!!) will kick in and he will only need to work part time for benefits. Who pays part time nurses insurance and benefits?? Oh!!! And while working as a part time nurse he's building the 20 year retirement benefits that we dreamed of....travel, leisure, etc. my first thought us it's 20 years too late. My second thought is it's all bullsh!t because he lives in fantasy land. AND HE DOESNT WANT TO WORK!

I know what will happen once nursing school hits. It's all going to be too hard and overwhelming. 

Quite frankly, I don't like him. 
I love him because he's been my husband for 16 years & he is the father of my children. 
I most definitely stay with what is comfortable because I don't like change. 
Why do I feel so stuck?
Why can I not make the decision? I want out. Why can I go no further than this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> Open minded...he is still taking prereq's. One per semester. He is so "overwhelmed" right now with 1 class & a straight 40 hours a week he shuts down. Puts his headphones on, watches movies on the iPad, meanwhile I have two kids who have activities, need attention, dinner, bath, bed, etc. So I don't have a lot of faith in nursing school. And you are partially right...that was his plan awhile ago, but now it's been revised. Again. He is going to nursing school on financial aid. Has he looked into & planned this out? No, "but if he's not working he will get financial aid...because there's no way he can work and go to nursing school too!" So there's where the retirement acct dwindles down to nothing. Then he says his CalPERS retirement (which could've been awesome if he had stuck it out 6 more years!!!!!) will kick in and he will only need to work part time for benefits. Who pays part time nurses insurance and benefits?? Oh!!! And while working as a part time nurse he's building the 20 year retirement benefits that we dreamed of....travel, leisure, etc. my first thought us it's 20 years too late. My second thought is it's all bullsh!t because he lives in fantasy land. AND HE DOESNT WANT TO WORK!
> 
> I know what will happen once nursing school hits. It's all going to be too hard and overwhelming.
> 
> ...


Because you lack confidence. Because youre afraid of how it will turn out. Because youre afraid youre too old, not pretty enough, or not desirable enough in personality to find another man when this relationship is over.

Either spend the rest of your only life in a relationship you dont enjoy out of fear or drop D papers and prepare to move on with your life. Your choice.

If hes not willing to talk with you about any of this, thats exactly what your choice is.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, I thought I remembered he's a dreamer. And definitely not motivated. One prerequisite class at a time? I remember thinking when you first mentioned that last year that he couldn't possibly be serious and yet he was. 

Fear of the unknown is keeping you in place. But on your current path you will go down that rocky road with him. And there's no rainbow and certainly no pot of gold waiting.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm going to jump in and say I also think the children should be considered in all this. You can't let him run you into the ground financially, but if you have to, I'm sure you can find a way to take complete control of the finances. He's still working, just not earning as much as he used to, so he's not a complete dead weight at least.

People are saying it's terrible to show your kids a dysfunctional relationship, and yep, they're probably right, but who's to say you don't jump into another one somewhere down the track that's even worse, or he does, or neither of you do and they just don't see either parent with any relationship. It's all just speculation.

My parents stayed together, and from what I've read here I feel was a worse situation than yours, yet here I am, married with kids and in love with my husband. Despite having an extremely poor example on how to communicate with a spouse, I learned a better way.

The real problem is being driven into destitution, and like I said, you can take control to stop that from happening. Just don't cash in the retirement account. Refuse; make him tighten his belt in a major way.

As for him studying, it's a waste of time. If I were you I'd be telling him a flat out 'NO'. No study. He doesn't have what it takes. He needs to just go to work, come home, no study, no courses. Some people just aren't made to study. I know, I'm one of them. Love the idea of it, love to learn, but sit me in front of a pile of text books and that sh*t ain't happening. At some point a person just has to face facts.

Work to live, not live to work. He needs to realise he's not going to find his passion in a workplace.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm sorry but the "not being able to work and go to school at the same time" is total BS. This boy needs to get off his lazy ass and get serious about his family. 

I worked full time in a high pressure job AND when to school FULL TIME (21 hour loads) AND made the friggen deans list. And I'm a girl.... he needs to get over himself.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Been on a long long journey in my M. Used to concern myself with H's career and get upset over his frequent job changes and chronic underemployment.

TBH I didn't have any power in that realm. ISTM when I helped him with resumes and finding jobs, he would just sabotage another job in a long line of self sabotaged jobs... and since I had invested time and energy helping him get the job... and since I had packed up and moved the family-yet again- with high hopes for the future... I was devastated when he lost the job

What was in MY power to change? I went to nursing school and am an RN working PT. Based on your accounts of his behavior, I don't think your H has what it takes to become an RN. It is an unrealistic goal for him.

IIRC you are on disability? What could *you* do to bring in some money while you embrace serenity to accept that you cannot change your H?

I pinched every penny until it screamed- goodwill for clothes, never owned a new car, aldi and save-a-lot for groceries. I bred and sold puppies. I got elected to (p/t paid) public office. I improved each house we owned with the children's assistance so they sold for more than what what we paid (sweat equity). I went back to school became a nurse and got a job.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> I don't know
> I frustrate the kind, giving people here whom I so appreciate, and they leave...(Prodigal).
> I frustrate him & I'm "always" wrong.
> (There seems to be a pattern that I frustrate people!)
> ...









What can YOU do so that you will feel good about yourself? Strong? Self confident? Healed?

*Courage to change the things I can.*

The Lord gave me some awesome GF's with whom I can talk about *anything*. We've had a weekly bible study together for >10years. The Lord knew I needed that!!! I was your age at the time and in a huge rut.

I got into an exercise routine, got in great shape, got some new (from goodwill) hot clothes, got some new hobbies and interests (nursing school is consuming!) and banned H and his issues from taking up so much space in my head


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think Blonde has some great advice up there.

I could dislike my DH if I focused on everything about him that peeved me off. There's plenty of stuff if I really think about it that aggravates me. At some point you have to make a choice to focus on the good stuff, to resign yourself to some of the crap; figure out ways to deal with it that take it off your stress list. If indeed you cannot stop yourself from focusing on everything bad, in ignoring all the good, then it's not just him that is ruining your marriage. The fault is yours too.

We all have our crappy qualities. I have plenty. I frustrate people here too but I'm sure they'll get over it. I've dealt with always being in the "wrong" according to DH by never saying sorry, but accepting fault if I see I've done something wrong. Works for us. There's ways to deal with these issues other than to walk away.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I've been thinking pretty hard over what you all have said the last couple days. So much experience, words of wisdom and good advice. 

I most certainly do get stuck in finding all the negatives about him. I believe part of that is my problem and something I need to work on in my own personality. I also feel like when I try to focus on the positive and let the other stuff go, that's when he will start picking at me and I get sucked into my own negative thoughts again. Still something I have to work on with my response to him. He also makes it difficult to find the positive when he constantly complains how he works so hard, is so overwhelmed and just checks out leaving it all to me. (He has worked 4 days out of the last 10. He took extra time off last weekend while my girls & I were out of town because he had a test yesterday and he needed to study. I purposely came home a little early on Sunday and shocker! he wasn't home. Back in my college days we didn't study at the movie theater.)

I have been thinking of taking the finances back recently. THAT will cause huge fights, but it needs to be done. When he first lost his job I started looking into what kind of business I could open, and I have a good idea. Instead of supporting me and thinking maybe we could pull us out of his mess together he told me I am controlling, jumping in to find what I can do to fix what he did. Um....yeah! So taking the finances back will be another controlling move on my part. Whatever. My youngest is starting preschool in September. Only a couple hours a week but it will free me up to maybe get my business idea off the ground. 

I have been spending a lot more time with my family and friends lately. I totally agree with...I think it was Blonde....I could not live without my girlfriends! I know that one reason why my H is so dissatisfied & unhappy with himself is because he doesn't have friends. 

We have a counseling appt tomorrow evening. Last time didn't go well. I don't know what to expect.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Because you lack confidence. Because youre afraid of how it will turn out. Because youre afraid youre too old, not pretty enough, or not desirable enough in personality to find another man when this relationship is over.
> 
> Either spend the rest of your only life in a relationship you dont enjoy out of fear or drop D papers and prepare to move on with your life. Your choice.
> 
> If hes not willing to talk with you about any of this, thats exactly what your choice is.


I'm actually afraid that maybe I wasn't cut out to be married. I don't have the slightest worry about finding another man or desiring another relationship. I fantasize about being alone. 

I am afraid of hurting him and my daughters. I don't know why the thought of hurting him affects me so much. He has no one...literally no one...and for some reason that plays a big part in it, even though I know it's because of his own doing.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blonde said:


>


Blonde, my women's bible study breaks for the summer because kids are home. I'm looking forward to it starting back up in Sept. My faith has gotten me through a lot the last few years. It's also that faith and the vows I made that make me feel conflicted. 

I need to print this serenity prayer and tape it to my bathroom mirror!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

This is an abusive entitlement attitude on his part and he gaslights you when you call him on it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> *I most certainly do get stuck in finding all the negatives about him. I believe part of that is my problem and something I need to work on in my own personality.* I also feel like when I try to focus on the positive and let the other stuff go, that's when he will start picking at me and I get sucked into my own negative thoughts again. Still something I have to work on with my response to him. *He also makes it difficult to find the positive when he constantly complains how he works so hard, is so overwhelmed and just checks out leaving it all to me. (He has worked 4 days out of the last 10.* He took extra time off last weekend while my girls & I were out of town because he had a test yesterday and he needed to study. I purposely came home a little early on Sunday and shocker! he wasn't home. Back in my college days we didn't study at the movie theater.)


Stacy, there comes a time where the negative outnumbers/outweighs the positive. No matter how much you try to focus on that positive, there just isnt enough there to sustain things. Its just reality. Everyone has some positive traits, but sometimes their negative traits are so strong that the positive does not balance that out. My second husband was one of the hardest working men I have ever known. He was also a clean freak about the house and kept things spotless as he could. However, he had a horribly negative attitude toward everybody, and everyTHING. B!tched constantly. Criticized me constantly. Picked at my daughter constantly. I could never do anything right in his eyes, and neither could anyone else. Now he is completely alone, he has alienated his entire family and has never had friends. No one in this world is good enough for him. Bitter old hermit. He got what he wanted evidently.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yep at some point in time you will have to recenter on healthy and happy and protection of your child. You do not owe your husband chronic unreasonable effort.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I'm actually afraid that maybe I wasn't cut out to be married. I don't have the slightest worry about finding another man or desiring another relationship. I fantasize about being alone.
> 
> I am afraid of hurting him and my daughters. I don't know why the thought of hurting him affects me so much. He has no one...literally no one...and for some reason that plays a big part in it, even though I know it's because of his own doing.


A man who makes you FEEL like a woman would make you want to be married; a man who makes you FEEL the fire of passion would make you want to be married.

You could be married to a gypsy or billionaire and be happy- so long as he makes you FEEL.

You want your husband to make you FEEL. You setup counseling sessions as if its possible they are a panacea for what ails your relationship- but none of these things bring CRISIS to his doorstep, and thus he has NO reason to change. You will continue on this rollercoaster until a significant change is made...

If he doesnt value you or the marriage, all the counseling sessions in the world wont fix it- its already over and the clock slowly ticks your only life away. Is the social institution of marriage worth your life? Would your God want you to be unhappy to preserve this institution? What exactly are you clinging to?

You had better sit down after a few of these sessions and truthfully ask yourself whether a chance exists. "Lying to yourself wont make it true..."

**EDIT** Tough love, MsStacy


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> Stacy, there comes a time where the negative outnumbers/outweighs the positive. No matter how much you try to focus on that positive, there just isnt enough there to sustain things. Its just reality. Everyone has some positive traits, but sometimes their negative traits are so strong that the positive does not balance that out. My second husband was one of the hardest working men I have ever known. He was also a clean freak about the house and kept things spotless as he could. However, he had a horribly negative attitude toward everybody, and everyTHING. B!tched constantly. Criticized me constantly. Picked at my daughter constantly. I could never do anything right in his eyes, and neither could anyone else. Now he is completely alone, he has alienated his entire family and has never had friends. No one in this world is good enough for him. Bitter old hermit. He got what he wanted evidently.


Were you married to my H? Sounds eerily familiar. 

I am struggling with the negativity...is it just me and my resentments blinding me to anything else? Or is it the truth, reality, and something I cannot change by working on myself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yep at some point in time you will have to recenter on healthy and happy and protection of your child. You do not owe your husband chronic unreasonable effort.


I totally get your point. And you're right. I feel responsible for him and that he'll have nothing & no one if we separate. I don't know how to detach myself from that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> A man who makes you FEEL like a woman would make you want to be married; a man who makes you FEEL the fire of passion would make you want to be married.
> 
> You could be married to a gypsy or billionaire and be happy- so long as he makes you FEEL.
> 
> ...


Wow. You do this well. 

Your words strike so many chords...

I started in counseling by myself to see if it was me, if I just changed my attitude, how I view him & how I react to him, maybe I would want to be here with him. I've been here too many years though, and I'm afraid this is maybe the final tip. I don't know. My mother keeps asking me if I'm done. In my head I quietly reply "yes! I want out!!" but my words to her are "I don't know. We have 2 daughters and I'm still trying". 

He SAYS he values me, our marriage, our vows, etc. I can't always reconcile his words with his behaviors. 

I have to print your post and carry it with me. There is so much there that I don't think has even sunk in yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

When I told my husband I planned to divorce him he cried for a couple of days and then began online dating and before the divorce was even filed began making plans to remarry (which he did the moment the decree was signed). Your husband is more than capable of doing the same so never fear that he'll be alone. He won't be.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MsStacy said:


> I totally get your point. And you're right. I feel responsible for him and that he'll have nothing & no one if we separate. I don't know how to detach myself from that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You take your eyes off him and proactively start stepping into healthy choices.

Eventually he will be left with the choice of joining you or leaving... but you stepping into healthy will reveal which camp he will ultimately choose.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm going to make the next counseling appt for me solo. I need to work on me and not be so affected in what might happen to him. 


In the mean time, we have our counseling appt in 1 1/2 hours. I don't even know what to bring up. I've been trying to pin point my biggest problem with my marriage or with him and I keep changing it. I also get myself bogged down in minutiae. 
What is the one thing I need to work on in MC?
What do I go in with today?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> What do I go in with today?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Broken record reporting for duty!

Divorce papers... Divorce papers... Divorce papers...


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Broken record reporting for duty!
> 
> Divorce papers... Divorce papers... Divorce papers...


I get that...but I'm going to MC to see if I can salvage this. 
I know it may not work, I know that D papers are what a lot here think I should do, but I will at least be able to look at my girls and say I tried everything I could, even when everyone said I shouldn't, I tried everything. 

I'm wondering what to pick as my #1 problem to fix. Because I'm getting myself caught up in the details and small stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

If it was me, I'd want to address the lying

which might go under the umbrella of communication and/or trust


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Probably posted this to you before Ms Stacy. This could really give communication a boost. Could you do this as a last ditch before pulling the trigger on a D? Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I get that...but I'm going to MC to see if I can salvage this.
> I know it may not work, I know that D papers are what a lot here think I should do, but I will at least be able to look at my girls and say I tried everything I could, even when everyone said I shouldn't, I tried everything.
> 
> I'm wondering what to pick as my #1 problem to fix. Because I'm getting myself caught up in the details and small stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I should clarify (in case I havent already) that D papers are not just suggested with the aim of an actual divorce; many here also feel they bring crisis to your husband which motivates him to change. Ive made it clear that I think D papers are your best chance to fix the marriage, and so that is why I keep mentioning it.

That said, I can appreciate what you wish to be able to tell your girls. I suppose if it was me, I would be most concerned with him disrespecting you. He does this implicitly and explicitly; you must draw a line and let him know it exists as this is the only way he will ever respect you, and thus want you.

Remember that many people who do marriage counseling end up getting divorced, and that counselors are people subject to faults just like any of us.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

MsStacy,

I just finished reading your entire thread. I sympathize with your situation, but honestly, you are sadly *spinning in circles, asking the same questions over and over,* a hundred different ways. Although your thread is much shorter and you are dealing with completely different issues, you are rivaling SteveK's thread for the same kind of spinning. If you haven't read it, check it out here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ationship-discussion/private...te-stevek.html He had two other threads (also hundreds of pages long) before THIS one, and he deleted them. Several hundred pages of great advice but he is getting nowhere.

Steve has gotten TONS of good advice, but he just keeps questioning everything, second-guessing all of it, and going round and round the Maypole. ("What if?" "What about THIS?" "What do you guys think THIS means?")

*The reason posters are telling you to file for divorce and serve him papers IS NOT TO ACTUALLY GO THROUGH WITH A DIVORCE RIGHT NOW, but to wake his a$$ up to what he will potentially be losing if he doesn't get his sh*t together.* We WANT you to save your marriage. But the way you are going about it will not work.

What part of this is difficult to understand? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but NOTHING you've done so far has changed a thing.

Do something different. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing OVER AND OVER and expecting a different result.

Listen to the wise people on TAM. They are giving you this advice for a reason.

P.S. How did last night's MC session go? More of the same?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Last nights appt we argued about the same, little things...same argument, different topic, basically the wash, rinse, repeat. 

I totally get that I spin myself in circles. I do know that. 
It boils down to this...I'm not happy, don't like him and haven't for a long time. I KNOW THIS. I want out. I'm having a hard time reconciling hurting him, turning my daughters worlds upside down & the financials....we absolutely cannot afford two households. I've really been trying to turn my feelings around. I'm learning that isn't happening. Been too long, too much water under the bridge, I'm just an unforgiving b!tch who doesn't take her marriage vows seriously....whatever the reason...I've been trying to change my feelings and that's not happening. So I have to deal with....where do I go from here. 

In terms of serving him D papers...I get the sentiment of using that to wake him up. He knows I have one foot out the door, we just argued about it again 5 min ago. I don't think it will shock him in that way. My hesitation there is if I actually DO that...I will follow thru. Cuz that's where my heart lies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I doubt it'll 'wake him up', if that's what you're really hoping. I think it'll more likely make him give up.

Have you read "Getting the love you want" by H. Hendrix?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Sometimes you just dont know until you are in it (D) whether it will impact him or not. Just makinv a clear strong stance on what is no longer tolerable, which does not make you an unforgiving b!tch by the way, and then go do your thing and separate from him gives him time and space to think.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Last nights appt we argued about the same, little things...same argument, different topic, basically the wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> I totally get that I spin myself in circles. I do know that.
> It boils down to this...I'm not happy, don't like him and haven't for a long time. I KNOW THIS. I want out. I'm having a hard time reconciling hurting him, turning my daughters worlds upside down & the financials....we absolutely cannot afford two households. I've really been trying to turn my feelings around. I'm learning that isn't happening. Been too long, too much water under the bridge, I'm just an unforgiving b!tch who doesn't take her marriage vows seriously....whatever the reason...I've been trying to change my feelings and that's not happening. So I have to deal with....where do I go from here.
> ...


Stacy, you know what you want, you just are not giving yourself the permission you need to act on it. I understand how hard it is, I remember when I realized in my first marriage that divorce was what I wanted, that hey, this isnt what I WANT to want! Its crazy but thats how you feel! I remember thinking I WISH this wasnt what I wanted. But once you are there, thats it, that is your reality. Give yourself permission to move forward to make a happier life for yourself.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The decision to divorce is far worse than the actual divorce and aftermath -- or was for me. It was a very difficult decision for me to end my 45 year marriage. But I at least wanted the opportunity to try to be happy and, more important, at peace for what remains of my life. And I am. My only regret is not divorcing 30 years ago when I first wanted to but stayed for my son. Because you can't get that time back.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

It's amazing to me how you guys can respond at the appropriate time...
I had a solo IC appt this evening. I told her that in my heart I know I'm done, but I can't come around to actually making that decision yet. 
I have another solo appt next week. Baby steps but I think I'm finally getting there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I can't stand my whole back & forth. 
I know it's me right now that's sitting on the fence and can't decide which way to fall. 
Saying the decision part is the hardest...boy, that's an understatement. 

I admitted in IC last week I want out, I don't want to be here. I thought that was a big step. It's almost like he knows this because since then he's trying, he's being flirtatious, trying to be cute. Sending me texts when I'm out on an activity with the girls calling me "cutie" saying he would like to be there to "build & share in the memories". 
It makes me feel awful that it feels creepy, ridiculous, too little too late. When he's face to face with me he's rude, contradictory and self-righteous. 

But here I am feeling guilty because it seems that he's trying. 

We're going to a family event tonight. I don't want to go but I agreed because he always declines this one (as usual). I'm doing everything I can to be out of the house and keeping me & the girls busy so I don't have to be around him. That's a sad & sorry state of affairs. Except this time it blew up on me...I don't want to go and now he's going too. And he's trying to be nice. Except all I think is that it's been 10 days....he wants sex. 

What I'm doing is just freakin' crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I picked up a book for $4 (with shipping) hardcover used from amazon: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by- Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether Stay or Get out Your Relationship . Someone on TAM recommended it. It is very thought provoking and is challenging me to really evaluate and think through what are our issues and whether they are too bad to stay.

You are far younger than I and I would hate for you to keep hanging on only to regret it later...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MsStacy said:


> I can't stand my whole back & forth.
> I know it's me right now that's sitting on the fence and can't decide which way to fall.
> Saying the decision part is the hardest...boy, that's an understatement.
> 
> ...


I did this very thing from June of last year to Feb of this year..


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> I can't stand my whole back & forth.
> I know it's me right now that's sitting on the fence and can't decide which way to fall.
> Saying the decision part is the hardest...boy, that's an understatement.
> 
> ...


Stacy, he really isnt trying, he is playing a game with you. He knows from your history that if he feels you teetering on the edge about to end it, all he has to do is to suck up to you and pretend he is trying, and you stay. Then of course he goes back to his normal self. Its a rotten cycle. Once it hits you that this is going to ALWAYS be the pattern, that's when you will be able to find your resolve to get out. Happened to me. 



Blonde said:


> I picked up a book for $4 (with shipping) hardcover used from amazon: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by- Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether Stay or Get out Your Relationship . Someone on TAM recommended it. It is very thought provoking and is challenging me to really evaluate and think through what are our issues and whether they are too bad to stay.
> 
> You are far younger than I and I would hate for you to keep hanging on only to regret it later...


Blonde, if I may give my two cents, I feel like yours is too bad to stay.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Stacy, 3Xnocharm has the perfect avatar for this forum. Look at it for a minute and THINK. I also agree with the above response.

Also, and forgive me if youve commented there or mentioned the thread, but have you seen:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/172842-searching-man-i-married.html

Im guessing you have. You and her are basically in the same boat. You both need to walk away, but both of you cling to insecurity and thus cant.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I always jump on this site from my phone so I can't see the avatars. Daily life will be settling down a little but now and I'll get on the computer this week to look at the avatar, links and book recommendations. Thank you! I've heard of Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay, but haven't had the chance to look at it. I'm very interested. It's summertime and I'm the SAHM in the whole family so we've had a revolving door of cousins staying with us for the last month +. I'm exhausted but my girls have had a blast. 

H is in a pissy mood today, by his own admission. His BD is tomorrow and he says he wants to do nothing. I tried to make plans with the friends we get together with for all birthdays, he said no, I tried to make it a simple celebration at home, he said no. I'm not trying anymore. He's in a pity party that it doesn't matter what he does, nothing will be good enough for me, and he's partially right. But I've done this long enough to truly know it's more about him than it is me. Pretty sad. 

I do think I am to the point of calling an attorney just to get information, see where I stand, etc. 
It's the tiniest of baby steps that I'm making, but I think I might finally be getting somewhere. 
We'll see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Stacy, 3Xnocharm has the perfect avatar for this forum. Look at it for a minute and THINK. I also agree with the above response.
> 
> Also, and forgive me if youve commented there or mentioned the thread, but have you seen:
> 
> ...


Ha, thanks for noticing it! I stole it from a post that Jellybeans made here a while back! It is me to a T.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Today is his birthday. 
I'm damned if I do & damned if I don't. 
Our oldest has been in tears because he didn't like the gift my parents got him. Problem is he makes it so clear when we all disappoint him. 

On top of that....it's his birthday....I know he's expecting me to put out. 
Time to uncork the wine.

Just a sorry, sad state of affairs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

One thing you need to do whether you stay or leave is make it clear to your girls that their father's issues are not their problem. Otherwise, his moods -- and disappointment -- will hold them hostage forever. It's obviously on him, not them, that he can't cope with life and they need to not take that to heart.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded....that's one of the big reasons I'm still here. I think that at least I can intervene when he's being an azz. If we're divorced, I won't be there 50% of the time to soften or explain his BS. 

My entire family has called, sent gifts and acknowledged his birthday in some way. But we're the ones that get sh!t on all the time and can do nothing right. 

I tried to make it a nice bd. Decorations, dinner, dessert, gifts....he started in on telling me how he's trying so hard, going out of his comfort zone and doing what I've asked "like pick up after myself, take time with the girls, kiss you goodbye." He said that I'm staying neutral and not giving him any indication that I'm trying anything different. I said I'd like to have a nice birthday and family night and not go into all that right now. He started pouting. 

It's only 7:30 and he's already not talking to me & giving me the silent treatment...even when asked a direct question in front of our girls. 


I'm so freakin done. I'm tired of jumping thru his hoops and mood swings. 
Another counseling appt with just me tomorrow. Guess I have to talk to her about untangling. 
And I need to call an atty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Pouting and brooding for days on end is what prompted me to put my H out of the house in Feb of this year. I told him to stay out until his attitude improved. He was gone two months. I was done with that crap. It is stupid, childish and unnecessary. That pout your H is doing is what he did to his mother to get out of what she wanted him to do, guaranteed and she never figured out how to jerk a knot in his tail sending the clear message that manipulation will not be tolerated. It is passive aggressive emotional blackmail. "See how miserable your reasonable requests are making me." Wha wha wha... I would have called him on the carpet for his piss poor ungracious childish attitude.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blossom Leigh...I'm heading that direction. I didn't mention his reaction to a birthday gift that was given to him. He sells himself as an athletic guy who loves his girls. My parents got him a 3 hour zip lining session. They really thought it would be right up his athletic interest and they were very excited about it. He opened it and made his disappointment known. Loud and clear. "How can you not take the gift recipient into account when buying their gift? Just because they get excited about it doesn't mean I will. They always give gifts that are all about them or you, my gifts have nothing to do with me. Gifts should be bought with the birthday person in mind"...on & on & on. By the way...it has only been my family who acknowledged his BD. He hasn't received a card, phone call, email, text...not one thing from his family. That is how hard he works at alienating people. This is the first year his parents have not called and sent something. 

Let me say this...my parents are fit for 62 & 66 years old but they're not the slightest kind of zip lining people. I'm a disabled chronic pain patient, it's managed, but I have huge back issues that prevent me from even thinking about something like that. So how this can be all about us is totally beyond me. He is outdoorsy, jump out of airplanes, road biking, hiking the mountain trails in Tahoe...they were truly EXCITED that they hit on something he would get excited about.

My 8yo D was there when he opened that gift. she was so excited because she's dying to do this! She watched his face, listened to him grumble about how my family makes it all about the gift being about the giver, if any of us really knew him then we could get a proper gift he would like, but we don't try. He went on & on, it was horrific.
My 8 yo ran to her room bawling. I gave him a dirty look and went to my daughter to soften his blow. She was afraid my parents would be so hurt that he didn't like it, she's afraid he's not telling her the truth that he does like her gift, she felt his birthday was ruined...besides mom...who throws a birthday party like this anyway??? (Because at his insistance we didn't have our normal family & friends over for dinner & cake). 

I calm DD down and finish dinner up. He came into me in the kitchen & starts hammering me about us. Specifically about what he's doing right, how he's meeting & exceeding in the areas I asked for, but I'm not doing anything but staying in my comfort zone. I told him we've had this conversation over & over, I'd prefer not to do it tonight because we'll fight and I'd really like to make a nice BD for him. Boom! That was it, he quit talking to me. Direct questions I asked him, in front of our girls, he would walk away if I spoke. We had dinner in silence just talking with the girls. They made him dessert and wanted candles and to sing. He said no, he didn't want to. I told him too bad, it's not all about you, your girls want to sing and wish you a happy birthday and you will give them that! I dished dessert to girls, asked if he would like a piece (It was immediately after dinner) he got up from the other side of the table, stood next to me, said excuse me, and dished his own dessert. Once he was done he went to bed & was asleep by 7:30. 

I have no desire to try to change my feelings for this man any longer. 
I am done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I dont blame you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ugh, Stacy...I can so relate to that post. I am sorry that went down. Glad that it provided you some clarity, though.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What an incredibly selfish, egotistical little boy you are married to. He should have left all of that behind when he outgrew the toddler stage. Oh, right. He never did outgrow it, did he. 

I realize you want to protect your daughters but it's better to have two households where there is normalcy most of the time with you than continue to live with what your daughters are seeing all the time with the current situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> Do I want to throw in the towel?


Yes.

IF - and that's a big if - he really loves you and wants to be married, he can THEN, after you're divorced, fight to earn you back.

But you know, and we know, that will NEVER happen as long as you're with him.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

He is highly destructive with almost every move he makes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> Openminded....that's one of the big reasons I'm still here. I think that at least I can intervene when he's being an azz. If we're divorced, I won't be there 50% of the time to soften or explain his BS.


that is flawed thinking. Trust me, that's how I raised my DD23 and she's a basket case now. No matter how hard I worked to keep his crap from her, it seeped in.

What your kids REALLY need is ONE safe, stable, loving, pain-free home that will be their safe haven and against which they can compare his crazy-making stressful home. A home that they will increasingly decide NOT to go visit as they age. They NEED your safe haven so that they can grow up knowing what it looks like, so they can grow up to emulate THAT, instead of what HE does. Because in a house full of crap, they won't become the good part; they'll take on the persona of the crap.

And btw, it's statistically proven that men RARELY adhere to 50% visitation. Only the highly enlightened men of the type that come here. Most men SAY they'll be great dads and then slowly start becoming single men who used to have kids. So you'll be having them at least a good 75% of the time.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

turnera said:


> that is flawed thinking. Trust me, that's how I raised my DD23 and she's a basket case now. *No matter how hard I worked to keep his crap from her, it seeped in.*
> 
> What your kids REALLY need is ONE safe, stable, loving, pain-free home that will be their safe haven and against which they can compare his crazy-making stressful home. A home that they will increasingly decide NOT to go visit as they age. They NEED your safe haven so that they can grow up knowing what it looks like, so they can grow up to emulate THAT, instead of what HE does. *Because in a house full of crap, they won't become the good part; they'll take on the persona of the crap.*


OP, I couldn't agree more with this statement. Ditto everything turnera said... I am paying a HEFTY price with my kids due to my stupid plan to "stay for the kids." My kids are good kids, just a bunch of emotional baggage and uncertainty because of all the cr*p that seeped in... Even though I thought I was protecting them, all it did was screw up their childhoods.

They are in a MUCH better place now emotionally, now that I am in a stable, loving, healthy relationship. I wish I had the b*lls to leave 15 years before I actually did.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was once a believer in staying for the children. But no longer. I stayed for my son 30 years ago and always felt good that I had done that. But he told me recently he wished I had gotten out then instead of last year because he said he never felt we were the very happy family that outsiders thought we were. And we weren't. I just didn't realize that he knew it. Children are far more perceptive than parents think.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I was once a believer in staying for the children. But no longer. I stayed for my son 30 years ago and always felt good that I had done that. But he told me recently he wished I had gotten out then instead of last year because he said he never felt we were the very happy family that outsiders thought we were. And we weren't. I just didn't realize that he knew it. *Children are far more perceptive than parents think.*


YES, this!! People ALWAYS underestimate kids, and underestimate the damage being done to them by staying "for them". I was the same as your son, Open, for YEARS I wished my parents would divorce. It finally happened when I was around 14, and it was a happy thing for myself and my sister.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I was once a believer in staying for the children. But no longer. I stayed for my son 30 years ago and always felt good that I had done that. *But he told me recently he wished I had gotten out then* instead of last year because he said he never felt we were the very happy family that outsiders thought we were. And we weren't. I just didn't realize that he knew it. *Children are far more perceptive than parents think.*


Openminded... my kids are 20 and 17. They have told me *the EXACT same thing.* "We wish you and Dad had gotten divorced sooner."

Kids aren't stupid. They went to their friends' houses and saw REAL happy families, where the parents were in love and demonstrated that love IN FRONT OF THE KIDS thru hugs, kisses, tickles, walking arm-in-arm into the ice cream joint, etc. At MY house, it was a cold, stoic, icy "tolerance" of each other.

Total bullsh*t for kids. Wow, if only I knew then what I know now. If only my kids had been old enough THEN to verbalize it. Not their fault at all; I'm just saying, had I known what a head-job it would do on them, I would have left in a heartbeat.

OP, I *hope and pray* that you are *listening* to those of us who have been down this road, long before you go down it. We represent all sides... spouses who stayed too long, kids who grew up in lousy marriages that lasted too long, and people who got out AT THE RIGHT TIME.

Pay attention OP... you are not "saving" anyone from anything. Just adding to their lifelong misery where they will repeat your sick and failing marriage to a tee.

Both my kids have told me, "I am NEVER getting married!" Sad, huh?

Don't let this happen to your kids. Marriage is a beautiful thing when it's healthy, loving, kind, robust, respectful, mutually giving, intimate, affectionate, sexual, trusting, and honest (just to name a few).

*It s*cks when it is anything less.*


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yes. I am listening. I think...hope...that's it's really sinking in. 

I still feel stuck financially although I know that I can make it and be just fine. I don't believe the same for him, don't know where he would go or what he would do. He cannot afford to live within 6 counties on what he makes. Rationally I know that's not my problem. Maybe he needs to be on his own in order to boost his work ethic. 

I think about the initial heartache of my girls. The little one will be 3 next month, she'll get through without too much confusion or memories I think. But then how sad is that...she'll never remember living together as a happy family. My 8 year old....that worries me. I'm afraid she will take it hard and personalize a divorce as her fault. 

A big factor in my mind, which I don't think necessarily should be, is my girls are adopted. Our adoptions are open, I am in contact with their birth mothers. These women chose us, picked us to raise their babies in a two parent household and provide what they couldn't. How do I tell these women I failed? That brings me to tears right now. 

Even in the midst of all my anger, lack of respect and resentment I still don't want to hurt him. When I say that I am the only person he has, I mean that literally. I totally realize that's by his own doing though. 

We got into it last night over a discipline decision with my oldest. He said he's so angry with me that he just doesn't care anymore, we are done, but we are still parents together. He believes we can be roommates, raise our daughters, even be "friends with benefits". It's amazing to me...for someone who is so analytical and knows it all...he's delusional.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Yes. I am listening. I think...hope...that's it's really sinking in.
> 
> I still feel stuck financially although I know that I can make it and be just fine. I don't believe the same for him, don't know where he would go or what he would do. He cannot afford to live within 6 counties on what he makes. Rationally I know that's not my problem. Maybe he needs to be on his own in order to boost his work ethic.
> 
> ...


Wow, he seriously thinks you can be ROOMMATES?? :scratchhead: How deluded is he?? 

Stacy, I am sure the birth parents of your daughters prefer that they live in a HAPPY HOME, rather than a dysfunctional, intact one. I know that would be MY preference, had I given a child up for adoption. Their happiness and well being would be of the utmost importance.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, he seriously thinks you can be ROOMMATES?? :scratchhead: How deluded is he??
> 
> Stacy, I am sure the birth parents of your daughters prefer that they live in a HAPPY HOME, rather than a dysfunctional, intact one. I know that would be MY preference, had I given a child up for adoption. Their happiness and well being would be of the utmost importance.


Yeah...not just roommates, but he thinks he'll still get the "benefits" part. That's the biggest delusion....I don't even have words for that. 

Yes, birth mothers want our girls to be happy, safe & provided for. A life and opportunities they couldn't provide. It's just another thing in the back of my mind that makes this all so hard.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Stacy, 3Xnocharm has the perfect avatar for this forum. Look at it for a minute and THINK. I also agree with the above response.
> 
> Also, and forgive me if youve commented there or mentioned the thread, but have you seen:
> 
> ...


I read most of her thread (skimmed a little). I see why you think we're similar. How frustrating it was for me to read. After 29 pages she's really no further than she was on page 1. Although...after how many years of me posting here I'm no further either. Just older, more resentful, angry & bitter. 

I've frustrated quite a few here, yes.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

We just had a come to Jesus meeting. 

Told him I want out & divorce. 

He cried, begged and said he's going to individual counseling AND calling our pastor for help & counseling. 

I don't know. Even if he totally does a 180...I'm afraid I'm too far gone. We'll see if he actually implements anything he says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Perhaps he will change. Perhaps not. Temporary change is easy. Permanent change is another story. Time will tell. 

And don't concern yourself about his financial situation if you do divorce him. That's on him to solve. But right now he's scared and so he will pull out all the stops. Whether he can really change will be the key.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> We just had a come to Jesus meeting.
> 
> Told him I want out & divorce.
> 
> ...


Stacy, after what he has put you through...keep moving forward toward separating. He can work on himself in the meantime. If you dont, then his motivation will be gone because he will think that he just averted the crisis, and that he got you to stay with his frantic promises. He wont do anything, at least nothing that will last. Keep moving forward, you can always come back (or let him back) if he actually puts in the work and proves that he has made permanent changes.

Personally I think #1, he isnt actually going to change, and #2, that you are done. I think you have been struggling and fighting for far too long and that you're finished. I'm just sorry for you for everything.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3x...unfortunately I totally agree with you. 
Time will tell but I'm not counting on it. 
And really....I just don't think there's any changes that could be made that will convince me. 
Maybe this is just the first step to untangling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you tell him you're still making plans to move out anyway? You need to. Trust me - it's what they do - as soon as you say you're moving out, they promise the moon, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that they know you've been waiting to hear, for ONE PURPOSE only: to get you to say 'ok, I won't leave.' That's as far as they go, as far as they intend to go. 

So here's the TRUE test. You tell him that you are still planning to leave, by X date, and you will CONSIDER calling it off if he's made a complete, sustained change by that date. 

Can you do that?


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

I just want to say I 100% agree with those who suggest you need to move forward with D even IF you are entertaining the idea of fixing things. 

I personally am almost CERTAIN this will not produce long-term change considering how he is with you, but at the very least he needs to see you are moving forward with D.

Just DO IT MsStacy- you are sooo close- dont drop the ball now! You might realize that moving on isnt so hard- imagine what it would be like to meet a man who puts PASSION back into your life and who treats you with RESPECT.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm still planning on talking to an atty, gathering all the information I need and what needs to be planned out. I have been advised not to leave the house. Also, my cousin divorced last year. She took her kids and left him and her atty jumped all over her for leaving the house. That is all pretty moot at this point anyway...the only way either of us could move is to sell our house and then use the equity. When I say we don't have an extra $100 left for him to even rent a bed somewhere I'm not kidding. Part of my plan is to take the finances back over & start pinching every 1/2 penny I can. School doesn't start for another month so I do have places I can go as "vacation". I told him that I will be away most of August.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Once you put a plan together -- as you are doing -- it begins to seem slightly less overwhelming.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, stay in the house. Tell him he has to leave by a certain date. Create your own bank account if you don't already have one. Figure out which bills are in his name and don't impact you and which ones are and do. Change them over to your name only (electric, utilities, etc.) Cancel anything you dont NEED (cable, online services, etc.) You can do this. You are doing the right thing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Let him SEE you making these plans. As soon as you achieve a milestone, inform him. "I've set up a separate bank account." "My lawyer says I have to do ABC by next week." Stuff like that. Let him SEE that you're serious.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> Let him SEE you making these plans. As soon as you achieve a milestone, inform him. "I've set up a separate bank account." "My lawyer says I have to do ABC by next week." Stuff like that. Let him SEE that you're serious.


Im not sure I agree on the "setup a seperate bank account" part- shouldnt she keep that to herself? Everything else, yeah absolutely.

And maybe a once-a-week text or at most once every few days? I would think a play by play would come off as trying to scare him instead of informing? (EDIT** Wouldnt a few days of silence in between these things leave him to wonder and thus make him more invested in the process?)

I agree with you 100% that he needs to see she means business- im just genuinely wondering how she should approach it in terms of contact frequency, etc.. care to clarify?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would treat him like a roommate. Hey, can you watch the dogs? I have to go see my lawyer. Hey, so you know, my check is going to start being deposited into my own bank account.

Either she MEANS what she says, or she doesn't. Anything less than real action is one more opportunity for him to manipulate her back under control


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

I agree that's unlikely that he is going to change. I agree that's better for the kids to be away from the tension, sulking, pouting, and ranting. It's better for them to see you happy instead of growing up thinking dysfunction is normal.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> I would treat him like a roommate. Hey, can you watch the dogs? I have to go see my lawyer. Hey, so you know, my check is going to start being deposited into my own bank account.


Fair enough. We all have different ideas on this I guess- roommate is nicer than I would be. Regardless, this is certainly a significant shift from what she has been and does get the point across- exactly what she needs to do.


turnera said:


> Either she MEANS what she says, or she doesn't. Anything less than real action is one more opportunity for him to manipulate her back under control


Agree :smthumbup:

MsStacy, just keep this in mind: prepare to move on for real. You can change your mind, but be hesitant to do so and throw it by us first to see if we can give you pointers/ascertain his real level of effort. You are at a disadvantage because you want to fix things with him in a way, and that makes you vulnerable.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm totally prepared to keep planning to move on for good. Because of finances, that will take some time to actually happen. I've been in roommate mode for while now. He doesn't like it but it is what it is. 

I don't have a separate bank acct but I've been squirling away money for awhile. I have enough set aside for first/last/security. I plan to take back the financial responsibility and tell him what I'm doing in getting myself educated...I'm going to see the atty, etc. 

As a side note, I told him tonight I have to go to the jeweler to have my ring cut off and resized. (Hitting menopause just sucks!!!). I've gained 20 lbs and my ring is way too tight, I can't get it off with soap, lotion or butter. It's very uncomfortable in the morning. I explained that I realized this was bad timing, I didn't want him to think it had anything with what's going on but I'll be without it for a few days. He said "I can't get mine off, it seems like just more of the same from you". I just wanted him to know it hurt in the mornings and I'm going to fix that.

I guess that's given him the reason to not speak to me tonight from 6:30pm on. If it's not that...I don't know what it is but I really don't care. He talks too much, it's refreshing when he stops. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I will definitely run anything by you guys first. I know I do things because I feel responsible for him, wish we had never gone this far. I can be very vulnerable to this crap!
Thank you so much for sticking with me. It's been a long haul. A long, sssllloooooooooooowww and frustrating experience. My heart thanks you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I know it's difficult to deal with this. Especially when you feel empathy for him (I didn't with my ex-husband). 

You're doing good. You have a plan and you're working on it. Some stay in limbo forever because they're too afraid of change to act. 

What I did to get through it was tell myself over and over (and believe it) that I could handle whatever life brings.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Stacy, please don't leave that cash in your house. You really should open your own bank account and put it in there. If you have that much money, it could be earning a little bit of interest, too.

But the more he sees you're leaving, the more likely that he'll start scouring the house, looking for clues of what you're doing, and looking for ways to stop you. And taking your money is one of the FIRST things he'll do.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I wish I didn't have so much empathy for him. If he didn't cut everyone out of his life....had contact with his family, had relationships outside of ours....it would be easier. I know that I'm not responsible, it's all on him and completely his doing. I keep telling myself I'm not responsible for his relationships. I think it's helping me detach a little. 

I have a locked drawer in my dresser. When he got into my pain management pain prescriptions years ago I had to start locking up my medications. Only I have the key and whenever I leave it's with me. My girls are big enough now that I need to lock up my prescriptions, but it has always stuck with me that I'm locking them away from my HUSBAND! Anyway...getting off track...the drawer has a velvet/board lining type thing that I stash the $$ under. Everything from the drawer would have to be removed to access it. I have socks and items in there in a way, I'd know if he was in it. He also knows that if for any reason I ever find him in that drawer then we're done...no questions asked or excuses accepted. But it probably is a good idea to get it out of the house. I wouldn't want to put it in an acct under my name but my mother would open an acct in her name for me. She's awesome...whenever she picks up something for me, if it's an inconsequential amount she used to not accept me paying her back. Now whenever we owe her $$ for anything, big or small, she tells me to tell him I'm paying her back but put it in my stash instead of giving it to her.

I have another counseling appt tomorrow afternoon. He said he's going to this one. I told him not to waste my benefits (we're using his EAP benefit and I'm about to run out of free sessions) if he's just going in with a chip on his shoulder saying he's "just there to listen" as he's done with every other. Since our CTJ meeting last week he's trying to be more helpful around the house and with the girls. He hasn't been as rude, demeaning, or nit-picking towards me. I don't expect it to last. I don't know what to expect from tomorrow's appt either. Ugh.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> I wish I didn't have so much empathy for him. If he didn't cut everyone out of his life....had contact with his family, had relationships outside of ours....it would be easier. I know that I'm not responsible, it's all on him and completely his doing. I keep telling myself I'm not responsible for his relationships. I think it's helping me detach a little.


Omg Stacy..my X2 did this. He lives as a hermit now. He has alienated his entire family, including his son. He has no personal cell phone or home phone, only his work phone. The only person he talks to outside of work is the old man that lives across the street. He cuts out anyone who does not agree with his way of thinking about everything, its insane! There is no way in hell I could have remained married to that man. 



MsStacy said:


> I have a locked drawer in my dresser. When he got into my pain management pain prescriptions years ago I had to start locking up my medications. Only I have the key and whenever I leave it's with me. My girls are big enough now that I need to lock up my prescriptions, but it has always stuck with me that I'm locking them away from my HUSBAND! Anyway...getting off track...the drawer has a velvet/board lining type thing that I stash the $$ under. Everything from the drawer would have to be removed to access it. I have socks and items in there in a way, I'd know if he was in it. He also knows that if for any reason I ever find him in that drawer then we're done...no questions asked or excuses accepted. But it probably is a good idea to get it out of the house. I wouldn't want to put it in an acct under my name but my mother would open an acct in her name for me. She's awesome...whenever she picks up something for me, if it's an inconsequential amount she used to not accept me paying her back. Now whenever we owe her $$ for anything, big or small, she tells me to tell him I'm paying her back but put it in my stash instead of giving it to her.


Yes for sure get it out of the house. Give it to your mom to open an account.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg Stacy..my X2 did this. He lives as a hermit now. He has alienated his entire family, including his son. He has no personal cell phone or home phone, only his work phone. The only person he talks to outside of work is the old man that lives across the street. He cuts out anyone who does not agree with his way of thinking about everything, its insane! There is no way in hell I could have remained married to that man.


I don't understand this from my H. I get some people are just antisocial & prefer to be alone. I think I'm 1/2 in that boat but I'm very close to my family, have a good number of friends most of whom I could go to for anything, so I think I have a pretty healthy balance. I sometimes wonder if I'm not cut out to be married...with someone forever. I know I would be ok alone. Possibly great! Maybe a companion or boyfriend here and there.  If this all goes down the drain I can pretty much guarantee I'll never marry again. Maybe I'll just find a few boy toys. 

Kidding aside, it's odd that my H does this. He needs relationships, but he cuts just about everyone out. When I told him I was ready to divorce last week he said "of course, go ahead and abandon me just like everyone else has". I jumped right back at him and told him he's not placing his sh*t at my feet. The fact that he has no relationships with anyone is NOT because people abandon him, it's the opposite. He didn't have a reply to that one. Maybe I should bring that one up at tomorrow's appt. so many issues...where to start. 

I feel like I'm finding my footing and my backbone though. Probably because I don't give a crap anymore.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm sure he does totally believe he's always abandoned and none of this is his fault. Just don't let him suck you back in and don't waste your sympathy on him. Believe me, he feels sorrier for himself than you ever will. Yes, he will try to be the perfect husband (in his eyes) for awhile but he won't very likely be able to sustain it because real change is hard and requires a lot of effort. He wants life to be easy.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I'm sure he does totally believe he's always abandoned and none of this is his fault. Just don't let him suck you back in and don't waste your sympathy on him. Believe me, he feels sorrier for himself than you ever will. Yes, he will try to be the perfect husband (in his eyes) for awhile but he won't very likely be able to sustain it because real change is hard and requires a lot of effort. He wants life to be easy.


He does want life to be easy. In front of everyone at my parents pool the other day he "jokingly" told me that it's his turn to be the stay at home parent and for me to go out & bust my butt working every day. My take on that....first, being a SAHM in his eyes isn't work. Apparently the kids feed, clean, teach and entertain themselves...second, the world owes him....third, he "works hard" which is why he takes a sick day for a hang nail and never answers the phone when they try to call him in for some extra help...I could go on & on. 

I'm on disability. I spent 8 years of my life in surgeries, treatments and doctors trying to get fixed. I bring home more money than he does. It really chaps me when he says this. It minimizes what I do, even with the limitations I have. If I could go out and get a job I'd do it in a heartbeat. It has to be easier than staying home with kids!!! (At least by today's example...oy vey...they're both on time out and about to do me in, and it's just now noon!)


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

It's still very telling to me that I dread him coming home from work every day, but look forward to him leaving in the morning. 

20 minute countdown. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I just ran to the jewelry store & had my wedding ring cut off for resizing. (Gotta love freakin menopause!!!!)

Feels weird. First time in years that I've had it off other than a few minutes for cleaning. I have to wait 10 days to go back to be sized so it can be fixed. 

Weird. And strangely freeing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Stacy,

Are you NUTS?!?! A velvet-lined, secret drawer with socks and cr*p on top of it is great, but what if there's a fire?!? A burglary? What if HE finds it?!?! REMOTE possibility? Sure, it's remote... But the definition of an "accident": the best laid plans, no one was expecting it, blah blah blah...

Get a safe deposit box for your own peace of mind.

You really are moving at a snail's pace. Forgive my bluntness, but you are EXTREMELY codependent. You're like a deer in the headlights. That's why you are so worried about his being alone, his lack of important relationships, his being unable to cope.

Start thinking about YOU. What does MsSTACY *need and want?!?!*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> the drawer has a velvet/board lining type thing that I stash the $$ under. Everything from the drawer would have to be removed to access it. I have socks and items in there in a way, I'd know if he was in it. He also knows that if for any reason I ever find him in that drawer then we're done


Stacy, what the hell good would it do for you to KNOW that he got in the drawer? It's MONEY! It would be GONE! You'd have to start all over, right where he wants you.

Give it to your mom to open that account. Please.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy;9874842 said:


> she tells me to tell him I'm paying her back but put it in my stash instead of giving it to her.


Translation: Daughter, you're married to an abuser. But you won't listen to me and leave. So I'm going to do every little thing I can do to make it look easier to leave him, and I'm going to pray to God every night that you'll get the courage to leave him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> It's still very telling to me that I dread him coming home from work every day, but look forward to him leaving in the morning.
> 
> 20 minute countdown.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Story of my life. EVERYTHING in my H's life is always someone else's fault. He is ALWAYS the victim. He ALWAYS accuses me of abandoning him or hurting him or being selfish...victim victim victim.

Please don't take him to therapy tomorrow.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I know. Snails pace, codependent...yes that's me. I will be able to tell my daughters I tried everything to save our family, even if I tried for too long. I'm working on that & trying to remedy it now. 
Yes...I'll get that $$ out of the house & in an acct. I tell him all the time the word accident means it was no ones plan. My own words coming back to bite me. 


Turnera...you're still with your H, right? Can I ask why? What makes you stay & not leave?
And why do you think I shouldn't take him to counseling tomorrow?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I waited until DD was out of high school to leave. But he was paying the bills, and I had no idea that he was $100,000 in debt, which I found out at about that time. Now I'm paying the bills and trying to get it under control, but there's no way in hell I can afford to leave him without filing bankruptcy. And I don't feel like ruining MY life like that because of him. So we're surviving until I can get my life under control.

And you shouldn't take him to counseling for two reasons. One, if counseling isn't HIS idea, he won't benefit from it, he won't listen to it, he won't believe it, he'll lie and pretend he's getting it and working on it, and it will all be A PACK OF LIES. He has to believe there's something wrong with him before counseling will do him any good and before HE WILL CHANGE.

Two, as 2 decades and two therapists have proven to me, HE isn't the problem in your marriage - YOU are. It's YOU who accepts bullsh*t and abuse and horrid behavior AND STAYS. So it's YOU who needs to see a therapist to figure out how to value yourself and learn to treat yourself like a decent human being worth respecting.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

It's been a couple weeks since I told him I was thinking towards divorce. I call it our Come To Jesus Meeting. The first week was great. He stepped up, started helping and being part of the family/household like he hadn't in years. The second week the girls & I were out of town because, well, I find any excuse I can to be away from him. I didn't have my hopes up tho. Now that we've been home a week everything I'm doing wrong is seeping back in. He's still somewhat helpful with the girls, but it's when he's in the mood or hasn't found a reason that I'm such an overbearing b!tch that he decides to participate. 

As a progress report tho....I went out looking at open houses with my mom today. They have the finances to buy an investment property and rent it out to me should the need present itself. It's actually strange that both my step-father AND my mother are on the same page for such a huge purchase. (I'm in California and the housing market in our area is just totally, ridiculously overpriced & insane.) They were about to put an offer on a house today. I backed them off...I don't think it was a good investment, the house wasn't even close to being worth it, and we can do better for a little less money on a condo, but will have association fees. Something that hit me today tho....I think my parents want me to leave him. 

I wish this were easier.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course they want you to leave them. He's hurting you, they know it, and they're trying to find a way for you to leave easily.

People don't change without months - years - of therapy.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> Of course they want you to leave them. He's hurting you, they know it, and they're trying to find a way for you to leave easily.
> 
> People don't change without months - years - of therapy.


We've had a couple joint MC type sessions the last few weeks but last Wednesday I went by myself. My counselor said that same thing. 3 weeks ago she recommended a counselor she wanted him to go to for IC. Of course he hasn't called for insurance approval or made the appt yet. (Which is very telling to me.) She told me this last week that it will take some long term therapy and huge dedication for him to work through some of his issues.

I don't see that happening.

Is it chicken of me to wait awhile (while still planning and setting things up) and see that he's going or he's not? I think he's still scared, but the terror he felt after our divorce talk has seemed to dissipate. Hence...he's not being proactive after only 3 weeks. 

Regardless...I can't move or do anything major tomorrow, we're looking at condos.....never mind, it doesn't matter, nothing is going to change and I'm looking for excuses to drag my feet. Ok. Got it. 

Why do I feel guilty considering my parents buying a place so I can rent? I'm 41. I'm not supposed to be dependent on them anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I put all my eggs in my husband's basket. For 35 years. So if I decided to leave, my mom would have known that I would have been unable to financially. And she would have made overtures to let me know - without saying it out loud - that I could let her help me. 

It IS chicken of you to wait. But totally understandable. BTDT. In 35 years, I've only ONCE told my H that I was planning to leave him.

But guess what? The one time I DID tell him, he believed me. And agreed to therapy immediately, to keep me from leaving. That's why I've pushed so hard for you to make the move - he has NO REASON to do the hard work, the introspection, that he needs to do to become a better person. He doesn't have to, because you continue to stay. Period.

If you truly love him, you WOULD leave him - so that he would finally have a reason to get help.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your parents are anxious for you to get out and that's why they are doing it. Don't feel guilty. Be grateful they are in a position to help you. It's your way out. 

Temporary change is easy. Permanent change is not. And that's what you're seeing from him. 

PS
Yes, you're looking for excuses to stay.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> I put all my eggs in my husband's basket. For 35 years. So if I decided to leave, my mom would have known that I would have been unable to financially. And she would have made overtures to let me know - without saying it out loud - that I could let her help me.
> 
> It IS chicken of you to wait. But totally understandable. BTDT. In 35 years, I've only ONCE told my H that I was planning to leave him.
> 
> ...


Geez, you make do much sense. I just texted my mom. Told her that it's pretty telling for me that they both wanted to buy the house today (as high priced as it was and needing so much work), I asked if in their heart of hearts they thought this was the right decision for me...to leave. I'm certainly not putting the decision at their feet. They've been there to support me, do whatever I want, but never offered an opinion. I guess I need to know that I'm not unreasonable.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My mom sat back and said nothing. I said nothing back. For 30 years. When I finally started telling her the truth about how much my marriage sucked, she started telling me that she already knew - but she felt since I didn't say anything, she couldn't.

PLEASE tell your parents the truth. Think about it. If one of YOUR kids were suffering and afraid to tell you the truth, how would YOU feel?

What did they say when you asked them?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> My mom sat back and said nothing. I said nothing back. For 30 years. When I finally started telling her the truth about how much my marriage sucked, she started telling me that she already knew - but she felt since I didn't say anything, she couldn't.
> 
> PLEASE tell your parents the truth. Think about it. If one of YOUR kids were suffering and afraid to tell you the truth, how would YOU feel?
> 
> What did they say when you asked them?


I'm afraid I'm walking in your footsteps. I never complained or shared much with my mother because I didn't want to change her opinion of my husband. We are very very close. I knew it would change her opinion & there would be no going back. My parents have always had a very strained relationship with him. I did start filling her in and right now she knows 90% of everything. The one thing I have not told her, have told no one but my counselor & sister, are the 2 (months long) occasions he took my back pain medication (narcotic) for recreation, almost landing me in the hospital. 

She texted me back saying she wants me to be happy, love my husband and love my life. She said she wants her granddaughters to grow up in a happy home full of love and a good example of what marriage is supposed to be. No one will be perfect, but she wants exactly the same thing that I would want for my girls. She doesn't want me to be 60 years old wishing I'd left...or 60 years old wishing I'd stayed. She said that if I don't love him anymore then the writing is on the wall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded said:


> Your parents are anxious for you to get out and that's why they are doing it. Don't feel guilty. Be grateful they are in a position to help you. It's your way out.
> 
> Temporary change is easy. Permanent change is not. And that's what you're seeing from him.
> 
> ...


You're right. 
About everything. 
I have a hard time accepting help. 
And he's never going to change. It lasted a whole week! 
I need to get out of my comfort zone and just do something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I know it's difficult. Facing the fact I had to end my 45 year marriage kept me awake for many nights. But it didn't change the fact that I had to do it.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I know it's difficult. Facing the fact I had to end my 45 year marriage kept me awake for many nights. But it didn't change the fact that I had to do it.


You still amaze me. Ending a 45 year marriage, taking that huge step after so long...you're my hero. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Smiling. Thanks. I felt my back was to the wall and I had to get out so I was in survival mode for awhile there. My ex-husband is full of remorse and wishes he could turn the clock back -- now that it's too late.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

You are way more mature than your husband.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

One thing to remember is that if you leave, your kids will have at least ONE home that's full of love, stable, not unhealthy, so that they can model YOUR home for their own lives. But if you stay married 'for the kids' and the only home they know is full of stress, unhealthy dynamics, and sadness or depression, guess what THEIR lives will look like? I stayed 'for the kids' and my DD23, as amazing as she is, has a lot of problems. Even today, when she's a psych grad, she can't help reacting to him in unhealthy ways. We tiptoe around a LOT of crap around him. It's horrible. I SO wish I would have left 10 years ago.


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