# So what is the NO SEX about - REALLY?



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Ok...so have read a LOT of posts about the entire HD/LD and sexless marriage issue.

It is PAINFUL. I know - I am in that group.

But it hits me...MANY of the people on here who are HD ...are desperate for an understanding. A key to the riddles. It is VISCERAL the pain.

I think many are caught in between NOT wanting to leave - and NOT wanting to live like this anymore. 

SO - there are the ultimate (and hard to even have the courage to seek out) questions that ...if one goes for long enough... just NEED to have the answers to so as to better make the real decision on what to do.

Is it that my LD spouse just does not like, want, or care enough about having, sex. 

Or - is it US that she does not want to have sex WITH?

Then - when we find out that ...perhaps ...we can at least assess whether or not this situation can be accommodated, helped, fixed.

So my question is... HOW can you figure out? How can you best discern? 

It seems as though a lot of LD's would rather not even DISCUSS the issue. And IF they do...either by choice or by reality...offer very little for the HD's to go on toward deciding which of the above it actually is.

I really believe that if THIS riddle is solved...then as painful as it may be...MANY HD's would be able to address and decide what to do.

And for all those..who say ...hey I dont need to deep understanding...as it does not really matter. The reality is + no sex forthcoming. I am done.
Well...I tip my hat to you. (sort of). But please understand. There are (for guys like me) some pretty big other considerations.
Marriage. Family. Children. Past. Present. Future.

So for all you LD's and HD's out there...put out there the very best tips/tools/strategies for getting the REAL answer.

Thoughts?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Dude, I know where you're coming from. I ended up leaving my marriage of 17 years, and the lack of intimacy was a big factor. 

Yes, the logistics of life after leaving your marriage can suck. But the feelings you get when you find someone who DOES love you like a man and woman should? It's made such a difference in my life. 

I never did find out if my wife didn't want sex, or just didn't want sex with me. Considering our sex life got worse as I got into shape, I suspect her own internal demons kept us from a healthy relationship. But in the end, she wasn't willing or able to discuss them, and I saw no path out if I stayed with her. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Ok...so have read a LOT of posts about the entire HD/LD and sexless marriage issue.
> 
> It is PAINFUL. I know - I am in that group.
> 
> ...


Two thoughts. One cannot make generalizations, despite the vast desire to do so, about the lack of sex. Without root cause understanding, it's all BS. 

Your wife is crazy and wildly unhappy. There is no real reason to think she even particularly likes you. And you want to have sex with her? She probably thinks you are out of YOUR mind.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, your wife is an alcoholic with BPD. It's entirely likely that she both doesn't like sex _and_ doesn't like sex with you _and_ that there's not much you can do about it in either case. 

So, what's the no sex about, really? I suspect the real answer to your question is that your wife is a mentally ill and emotionally unstable addict, and isn't capable of having a long-term, healthy, intimate relationship. 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Now you want to know how to diagnose the situation. Well I'm on the upswing this week but I still don't know why she changed from High drive aggressive to low drive avoiding. I'm pretty sure she doesn't either. Nor do I know why she is suddenly dominant and demonstrative. I'm just ecstatic and hope it lasts. 

I'll tell you what I did. I talked to her until she stopped wanting to hear it. Then I came here and talked until someone told me quite bluntly what the heck my problem was. Then I told her, and stopped blaming her for my insecurities, even though her actions and attitudes were triggering them. I have to tell you that the #1 thing that has changed (and it does apply to your case) is that she no longer feels pressure.

Now how to achieve that I'm not sure you want to go into it cost me a month of sleep and took us to the edge of divorce. There has to be a better way.

MN


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

I think the crux of the HD not understanding the reason the other person is LD..._is that there is no reason_. The LD's mind just works differently. Does not think of sex. Does not get horny. Never gets a hard-on/wet panties from thinking of sex....


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

In most the examples we see here the LD partner doesn't have a problem. They're having just the right amount of sex to be happy. It's the HD partners that have the problem. The challenge is what are they going to do about it. 

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting a different result. It appears to me in a lot of cases the HD partners keep having the same discussion ad nauseum with their partner hoping to incur a change. Logic tells us that will not work. There has to be a wholesale change of some sort to initiate any change in the status quo.

There are a multitude of factors that make a person LD; past trauma, poor health, relationship issues, negative views of sex, poor self image, lack of energy, laziness, resentment and so on and so on. They key is figuring which one and determining whether the applicable issue can be resolved or not. If it can't the HD partner has the option of either leaving or resigning themselves to a sexless marriage. 

At some point after it goes on long enough the HD partner is equally responsible for having let it go on so long without addressing it one way or the other.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm past worrying what it's "about" as you can waste years trying to get an answer that ultimately changes nothing. It's either there or it isn't - as am I. *

* (Barring special or extenuating circumstances.)


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

In my case, I was exhausted. My libido returned after we rebalanced our home life. I've seen many similar examples including some in these forums.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> Dude, I know where you're coming from. I ended up leaving my marriage of 17 years, and the lack of intimacy was a big factor.
> 
> Yes, the logistics of life after leaving your marriage can suck. But the feelings you get when you find someone who DOES love you like a man and woman should? It's made such a difference in my life.


After finding real love, after finding real appreciation and passion, doesn't it make you say "what the hell was I doing"? Or "What the hell was I thinking?".

What I tell moms and dads in these situations is that yeah it sucks, however is that really the example you want to teach to your kids, that it's ok to be with someone who treats you badly?

Thank you. It's just like a friend who is not really your friend anymore, you are not supposed to keep that "guy" as a best friend anymore, it's an associate who doesn't really like you and won't do anything for you...



PBear said:


> I never did find out if my wife didn't want sex, or just didn't want sex with me. Considering our sex life got worse as I got into shape, I suspect her own internal demons kept us from a healthy relationship. But in the end, she wasn't willing or able to discuss them, and I saw no path out if I stayed with her.


It could've been about raw "power", you didn't have sex because she didn't have to. And no matter how good of shape you got into or how many external babes appreciated you, her mind would find ways to marginalize you to keep her view point balanced. 

So perhaps the better you where, the better you looked, the faster, harder and quicker her mind tore you down to keep you where she viewed you at.



PBear said:


> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ladymisato said:


> In my case, I was exhausted. My libido returned after we rebalanced our home life. I've seen many similar examples including some in these forums.


This right here is an extremely dangerous post. There are so many desperate guys who will read this and think that they need to do more cooking or cleaning or laundry, and honestly you almost never see that work on these forums. Quite the opposite in fact.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This right here is an extremely dangerous post. There are so many desperate guys who will read this and think that they need to do more cooking or cleaning or laundry, and honestly you almost never see that work on these forums. Quite the opposite in fact.


I hope they at least give it a try though an honest conversation would be a good first step. And don't assume your wife understands what's happening to her, I didn't.

Then too there are cyclical changes, often around childbirth.

The idea of sorting people into LD/HD pigeonholes is what's dangerous.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If you are employed, there are probably folks at your work who would prefer to not work but still get paid and who would eagerly do so if allowed to. Withholding spouses see no reason to change because they incur no ill consequences for not performing. They aren't partners. They intend and expect to receive all the benefits of marriage (security) whether they participate or not. If the defrauded spouse finally leaves, the fraudulent spouse intends to make his/her escape as painful and expensive as they possibly can. I believe that with most of these withholders, their goal was met when their mate said "I do" and they believe there is no further requirement for them to do or be anything other than a perpetual recipient.


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## mustangsally (Aug 20, 2014)

I completely disagree. Division of labor is quite often a source of resentment to some women and sex lives suffer for it. It never hurts to ask if your wife needs help with something. It's barely scratching the surface of potential causes but show some care and concern about her needs without the pressure and expectation of sex and things might turn around.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> If you are employed, there are probably folks at your work who would prefer to not work but still get paid and who would eagerly do so if allowed to. Withholding spouses see no reason to change because they incur no ill consequences for not performing. They aren't partners. They intend and expect to receive all the benefits of marriage (security) whether they participate or not. If the defrauded spouse finally leaves, the fraudulent spouse intends to make his/her escape as painful and expensive as they possibly can. I believe that with most of these withholders, their goal was met when their mate said "I do" and they believe there is no further requirement for them to do or be anything other than a perpetual recipient.


This is a very bitter interpretation but there is an element of truth to it: the LD spouse is not going to be very motivated to do something about sex, by definition.

While I'm sure there are some spouses who come into marriage with LD, far more often something occurs during the marriage.

Men, especially, who treat sex as a marital right are likely to be disappointed at the lack of response.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If you are employed, there are probably folks at your work who would prefer to not work but still get paid and who would eagerly do so if allowed to. Withholding spouses see no reason to change because they incur no ill consequences for not performing. They aren't partners. They intend and expect to receive all the benefits of marriage (security) whether they participate or not. If the defrauded spouse finally leaves, the fraudulent spouse intends to make his/her escape as painful and expensive as they possibly can. I believe that with most of these withholders, their goal was met when their mate said "I do" and they believe there is no further requirement for them to do or be anything other than a perpetual recipient.


Well men need to learn to weed these types out. There may be some categories other than sex that they prove to be less than loyal, and concerned mostly about their own well being, even at the expense of their relationship partner.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

mustangsally said:


> I completely disagree. Division of labor is quite often a source of resentment to some women and sex lives suffer for it. It never hurts to ask if your wife needs help with something. It's barely scratching the surface of potential causes but show some care and concern about her needs without the pressure and expectation of sex and things might turn around.


Resentful enough to quit behaving like a wife but not resentful enough to legally stop being a wife. Got it. My point stands. If a woman is too pissed, hurt, resentful or whatever to behave like a wife, she needs to find a lawyer and change her legal status. No one, for any reason, has the right to own a slave in the civilized world. No one, for any reason, has the right to arbitrarily decide that another human being is going to be celibate for the rest of their life against their will. 
The marriage vows don't mention any qualifiers about being sexually faithful only as long as he does half of the housework, or as long as she doesn't gain any weight, or, provided I feel all warm and giggly every day. 
Being pissed off and miserable might be a great excuse to divorce a guy. It's a piss poor excuse to torture him in place for the rest of his life. Murderers typically only serve around 5.5 years in California. We have guys serving 40 years of celibacy and slavery because their wife thinks she deserved something better but she's too timid or lazy to leave. Withholding is friggin abuse even more evil than punching one's spouse in the face. Who, on this forum would blame the victim of physical spouse abuse? "it sucks that he beats you every night, but maybe he's just resentful because he wants you to do more around the house." We'd be screaming encouragement for her to have her abuser locked up for the animal that he is. If a man called his wife a fat, ugly pig every day and denied her even slight residue of affection, we'd all consider her a victim of abuse and we'd all relegate such a hateful beast to the bowels of hell. Why do we wish to excuse those who deliberately withhold sex?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

treyvion said:


> Well men need to learn to weed these types out. There may be some categories other than sex that they prove to be less than loyal, and concerned mostly about their own well being, even at the expense of their relationship partner.


Men need to recognize a trap when they see one and not jump into it. Modern marriage is a lousy contract for most men. It offers them really nothing beyond what they could get by just living with a woman but it immediately puts huge liability on their shoulders the second she says "I do". 
A man who just dated a woman wouldn't likely put up with months or years of no sex. He'd just show her the door and they both could drive on with their separate lives. In marriage, he has to typically pay huge to get out of the deal and it's all but guaranteed that the loveless zombie will get custody of his kids. He's screwed if he stays and he's screwed if he leaves. She knows this and consequently has no motivation to change. In fact, the more miserable he is, the sooner he will die, the sooner she will get the big pay day.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

My ex was HD, and I was the LD one (if you've read my other thread, I'm not asexual, just easily satiated). However before we wed, we saved ourselves, at her insistence. We fooled around, but no PIV, I easily could handle that because of the anticipation of the reward of the honeymoon, but she kind of duped me. Instead of refusing sex more often after the honeymoon, she just complained that she wasn't getting it enough, even though it was infinity times more than before the nuptials. By the end there was so much mutual resentment, she decided to use all the support I was providing as a means to get it on the side. After dday she confessed to me that she thought she was a sex addict, but I think it was just the repressed guilt for her choices to stay. All that she got after counseling was me giving even more effort into doing all the domestic duties, income providing, and child rearing to enable her to go out with her hip hop dance friends to the black bars.

Anyways, I have come to have a better understanding of the frustration of HD people with LD spouses, from my perspective as an LD one. I think if we decide to pair up we should just be honest about stuff and accept ourselves for who we are, sexual appetites and all.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

it's very frustrating when you don't know why your partner is LD or is withholding sex... the HD/LD mismatch often has no solution... you either accept it or leave.

I'm lucky in a way, because at least I know why my wife is LD... I've accepted it and living with it. Am I happy? Well, not quite... she is refusing to fix it...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

OP: if your wife doesn't get treated for her BPD, you have no chance to make it work. That's the first step. After that, when she is better, you can tackle all the other issues. Prepare yourself for a very long and painful journey...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Here's what you do. You leave. You get a divorce and find your match. If she/he is a SAHM/D, then take care of them as the law allows. Find your match. 

This is character. This is pride in yourself. This is respect for your spouse. Anything else is just torture for you both, if you've tried for a little while. Don't hurt yourself or her/him, any more. That's just wrong.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Here's what you do. You leave. You get a divorce and find your match. If she/he is a SAHM/D, then take care of them as the law allows. Find your match.
> 
> This is character. This is pride in yourself. This is respect for your spouse. Anything else is just torture for you both, if you've tried for a little while. Don't hurt yourself or her/him, any more. That's just wrong.


Not sure about a leaving a wife who's mentally ill... I don't think the OP has yet exhausted all the avenues... we don't even know if he has kids or not... if he has, I wouldn't leave my kids with her...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Not sure about a leaving a wife who's mentally ill... I don't think the OP has yet exhausted all the avenues... we don't even know if he has kids or not... if he has, I wouldn't leave my kids with her...


I'm sorry. I went back and reread the OP and still don't see where he posted that his wife was mentally ill. 

If she is, I would think the best thing to do would be to get her care and make sure she is as well as can be. I think there is some leeway there. I think discretion would be the better part of valor. 

The greatest character would be to keep your vows. Not sure if that is possible in a situation like that. It might be best just to do as I posted and leave while making sure she is well taken care of. That would be up to the abilities of each individual.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm sorry. I went back and reread the OP and still don't see where he posted that his wife was mentally ill.
> 
> If she is, I would think the best thing to do would be to get her care and make sure she is as well as can be. I think there is some leeway there. I think discretion would be the better part of valor.
> 
> The greatest character would be to keep your vows. Not sure if that is possible in a situation like that. It might be best just to do as I posted and leave while making sure she is well taken care of. That would be up to the abilities of each individual.


He mentions it in his other thread...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/215874-terrible-night-what-does-mean.html

She has BPD, but we don't know if she's being treated...


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

mustangsally said:


> I completely disagree. Division of labor is quite often a source of resentment to some women and sex lives suffer for it. It never hurts to ask if your wife needs help with something. It's barely scratching the surface of potential causes but show some care and concern about her needs without the pressure and expectation of sex and things might turn around.


In a world of both mature adults, the wife would already be communicating her resentment long BEFORE the sex life suffers.

I would also add that some measure of reasonableness is needed when deciding what "labor" is worth doing period, let alone "dividing". For example, a wife for whom sex really isn't that important anyway can easily come up with a million _essential_ tasks that must be done perfectly as a pre-requisite to sex.

Again the mature adult way to handle this is for both to agree on what stuff really belongs in the pool of essential-work-to-be-divided versus the stuff that should just go entirely undone for the sake of a more important activity: sex.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> He mentions it in his other thread...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/215874-terrible-night-what-does-mean.html
> 
> She has BPD, but we don't know if she's being treated...


If she refuses to be treated, then he has no obligation to put up with that choice. If she agrees to be treated, he need only stay until she's stable and/or the treatment is working reasonably well.

My ex was bipolar, but that's not why I left her. Once I decided to leave, I stayed until her new drug regimen was working and she was stable. She remained stable thereafter.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> If she refuses to be treated, then he has no obligation to put up with that choice. If she agrees to be treated, he need only stay until she's stable and/or the treatment is working reasonably well.
> 
> My ex was bipolar, but that's not why I left her. Once I decided to leave, I stayed until her new drug regimen was working and she was stable. She remained stable thereafter.


this ^^^^


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## khaleesivirge (Jul 2, 2013)

You could ask her. Communication is the duct tape of marriage. I can't speak for everyone but in my case I can say that my Husband makes me feel special. He makes me feel sexy. He goes above and beyond to let me know that I am worth his hectic work schedule and long hours. He does the small things that make me wonder when he noticed and pick up the particular magazine he knows I like on a trip to the store... He sends me flowers because it's Tuesday. He gets off from work and jumps on diaper duty and helps cook meals, or cleans. I view my Husband as a MAN, the type of man that most women wish existed but can't find. He tells me he loves me daily and he NEVER STOPS TRYING TO PROVE IT. As if he didn't showme constantly and consistently I would run away. We have sex daily regardless of headache or fatigue ( or whatever excuse you want to put here that women commonly use) because I don't mind taking an hour of my day to make him feel special and loved in the way that he identifes with. He is worth ALL of that. And it helps that the sex is SPECTACULAR! Never has there been a time that he doesn't take care of me first. It may sound selfish on my part but he won't have it any other way. Just my take on things. I hope that info helps you see things from the female perspective a little clearer.. And you women withholding and feeling butthurt because I said the word "excuses", don't jump on me and send me any angry messages. As I stated above this is MY take on things to help the OP. Not about you.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> We have guys serving 40 years of celibacy and slavery because their wife thinks she deserved something better but she's too timid or lazy to leave.


Slavery? You do realize that men also have free will --legs, brains, a mouth that can say, "no"?

But you're accusing her of being too timid and lazy?

To OP, there are many reasons for sexlessness, some quite reasonable, some quite selfish. Best way to find out is to ask and observe carefully --without all the baggage that says she owes you and assumes she is trying to keep you as a slave.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This right here is an extremely dangerous post. There are so many desperate guys who will read this and think that they need to do more cooking or cleaning or laundry, and honestly you almost never see that work on these forums. Quite the opposite in fact.


I can tell you that I just got my a** handed to me last night in regards to this exact scenario.

My wife was in a not-very-good mood, and I was. It has been 10 days since we had any intimacy (sexual or otherwise), with so much going on, and both of us having had a few days of being sick, to boot.

Long story short, she expected physical intimacy (cuddling, etc.) I hoped for a bit more. I was more than happy to provide for her needs, and did not expect any more than that (a sad reality). Without even blinking, I got a pre-emptive "not going to happen tonight", which set me off, and I got defensive. Not a good move on my part, but I resent the pre-emptive "no".

This turned into a pretty good argument, in which the one thing that stood out to me was that she could care less what I do around the house and that none of those things have any bearing on attraction levels. She backtracked a little bit and said that she -appreciates- all of it, and likes to come home to a clean house, happy kids, dinner, etc. But she re-iterated that whether I do these things or not won't affect our sex life in any way, shape or form.



I should mention that I do not do those things for that reason. I do them because I can, I should, and I really don't mind. It's my house, too.

But to be presented with that fact was disheartening, even though it's not why I do them.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

alexm said:


> I can tell you that I just got my a** handed to me last night in regards to this exact scenario.
> 
> My wife was in a not-very-good mood, and I was. It has been 10 days since we had any intimacy (sexual or otherwise), with so much going on, and both of us having had a few days of being sick, to boot.
> 
> ...


been there... got the t-shirt...  after a month of no sex, on holiday, first night, she said to me: you don't want to have sex, do you? As in "no way we are going to have sex tonight"... I said, "no, I'm tired, I wasn't thinking about sex"... and she said... "ok, let's see when I feel like it..."


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> We have guys serving 40 years of celibacy and slavery because their wife thinks she deserved something better but she's too timid or lazy to leave.


Are we supposed to feel sorry for a guy in this situation? Why is it her that failed by not leaving? She wasn't the one that was suffering. He was. 

Isn't he the timid or lazy one for staying?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

To me if you're unhappy with the sex in your marriage and you're not prepared to break up the marriage over it you're pretty much dead in the water. 

In a negotiating course I took the instructor kept referring to BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Basically what would result if an agreement can't be reached. The person with the best BATNA is the one that holds the power. 

In a sexless marriage where the dissatisfied person is not prepared to leave the LD partner is the one with the best BATNA. If no agreement is reached they're not required to have the sex they don't want anyhow. 

I'm not suggesting that leaving is your first option. It should definately be the last option on the table...but it has to be there.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

As an LD woman, I know I can still get turned on and wet when a man has certain characteristics. He's got to be entirely confident in himself, strong yet not aloof. The strong silent type does nothing for me. He's got to be warm, open, funny. I want him to be a leader. 

Notice that very little of what I said has anything to do with how he looks, how in shape he is, how big I think his member is, etc. Attraction is often mental. If you can make me laugh, think, and enjoy your company, I will want to have sex with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> I hope they at least give it a try though an honest conversation would be a good first step. And don't assume your wife understands what's happening to her, I didn't.
> 
> Then too there are cyclical changes, often around childbirth.
> 
> The idea of sorting people into LD/HD pigeonholes is what's dangerous.


I'm with WOM. 

Laundry, cooking, car washing, have nothing to do with improving your wife's desire. Please note that in my case I can offer even more nonimpactful actions: allowing "sick" or "tired" spouse to sleep in while i handle household duties with little one. Getting in even better shape. Giving space. Home improvements. No tangible improvement. 

The only way to resolve a LD situation is to be with someone who is closer aligned to your drive. Rough numbers here with no factual support, just lots of story reading: only about 0.00346% of of LD spouses flip a switch later on in the marriage. that number could be off a little, but I suspect its very close.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> As an LD woman, I know I can still get turned on and wet when a man has certain characteristics. He's got to be entirely confident in himself, strong yet not aloof. The strong silent type does nothing for me. He's got to be warm, open, funny. I want him to be a leader.
> 
> Notice that very little of what I said has anything to do with how he looks, how in shape he is, how big I think his member is, etc. Attraction is often mental. If you can make me laugh, think, and enjoy your company, I will want to have sex with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife is the same way. She is attracted to this and she actually is attracted to in shape guys as well. Unfortunately she just wants those traits in someone else. 

All women likely love these traits. The issue is that when some women marry one like this, they no longer see this man in their husband. It becomes a change in perception. Sometimes a change in reality too, (he may drop the ball), but often a change in perception. "I wanted rib eye steak. I got it. Just kidding, I want a lamb shank now."


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Laundry, cooking, car washing, have nothing to do with improving your wife's desire. Please note that in my case I can offer even more nonimpactful actions: allowing "sick" or "tired" spouse to sleep in while i handle household duties with little one. Getting in even better shape. Giving space. Home improvements. No tangible improvement.
> 
> The only way to resolve a LD situation is to be with someone who is closer aligned to your drive.


There are many reasons for a HD/LD conflict but among them are many situations, including my own, where on otherwise normal libido is depressed by exhaustion. I saw that happen in my own marriage and I've seen it happen others, as I noted previously. I also mentioned cyclical changes such as childbirth.

So the facts contradict you.

Divorce is not the only solution.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Wow....as the official OP here....am really astounded by the genuine posts and the opinions.

So - as a lot of people are asking questions - I will first try and fill in the answers.

My W is absolutely without question suffering from BPD. The criteria lines up almost exact and the symptoms follow completely.
We have met with three separate counseling/therapy experts only to have her demand we stop (or her refusal to return).
As most realize (and is echoed on this site) a diagnosis for BPD can be a tricky thing. First, most couples or marriage counselors while able to read the signs (see it)...are HIGHLY reticent to actually NAME it. Two of them let me know in other ways what I was dealing with. They also said that rather than approach that issue head on - they instead chose to be very "gentle" with her so as to hopefully keep her attending. It did not work...as she refused to return after 1 or 2 sessions. In fact, the very first session in all cases ...she was furious at the therapists and was going to walk out. 
Adding to that ....in EVERY case...I was "tasked" with finding a person and setting the sessions up. IN EVERY one...as we led up to the actual first appointment...she would get VERY nervous and begin making excuses not to go. (?!) 
In fact the night before was CRAZY..in 2 cases even the ride TO THERE...was crazy with her screaming at me ...that she did not want to go...(no reason....actually just rage..or some really absurd reason...)

Anyway....I could add in an assortment of issues or problems or symptoms..but yes...there is something really amiss. Included in that is Peri-menopausal and all the issues endocrine and otherwise.
I want every woman - who thinks I may be "adding up" issues to REALLY understand that I am the opposite.I love my wife. I have a tremendous amount of empathy and hurt for her to be suffering with ANY of this.
BUT - there is some solace in finally being able to at least learn what it is and how to cope with it.

Other answers.
Kids - yes. Married 14 years.
I take my marriage vows very seriously. 
My family is everything to me.

I am reading where some think I am weak for not filing or leaving. Well, it is certainly not what I want at all. I do read with pain the fact that many feel this can/will never change.
I am in a riddle wrapped in an enigma in many ways.

I was pointed to this site as a resource. The ability to simply put out there what I am facing and have people share thier expereinces and comment on what I face has been a tremendous source of help.

As anyone knows who has been in something like this...your ability to even see clearly gets very diminished. (I think it is called FOG).
I am NOT one who toots my own horn. But for the purposes of informing (and with the acknowledgement that it i subjective)
I am a VERY competent, successful, confident and capable person. I really believe I am a very good husband, father, and man. Very strong. Very passionate. Very selfless. (which in this case I think works really badly against me)

I am also a Mr.Nice guy (read the book), built to be codependent, takes blame way to easily, too introspective, etc.
AND ...denial is one of my go to coping mechanisms.

My reason for the the OP - is really to understand. Like I said...I do not even trust my own instincts anymore. I have been in this spiral for so long...that I am sure I cannot even see normal any longer. I have accepted so much...that I am worried that I cannot tell when it is too much.

So - I want to thank everyone first and foremost...and encourage posts and questions to keep adding up.
You have no idea how much it helps.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm with WOM.
> 
> Laundry, cooking, car washing, have nothing to do with improving your wife's desire. Please note that in my case I can offer even more nonimpactful actions: allowing "sick" or "tired" spouse to sleep in while i handle household duties with little one. Getting in even better shape. Giving space. Home improvements. No tangible improvement.
> 
> The only way to resolve a LD situation is to be with someone who is closer aligned to your drive. Rough numbers here with no factual support, just lots of story reading: only about 0.00346% of of LD spouses flip a switch later on in the marriage. that number could be off a little, but I suspect its very close.


Outside of a pill that would flip the LD switch to HD, another option is for the LD spouse to see you in another light. Maybe you are a leader at work, but she doesn't see you like that and even if she is turned on by that trait, she misses the opportunity to see that in you. So take a different approach. Join a team and become a leader on that team, then invite her to games. Speaking for myself, I like to be surprised. Not like flowers for no reason surprise, but surprised that there's a side to my man I've never seen (or forgot was there) that, when I see it, I'm turned in again. If life is same old, same old, interest can easily wane.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Self reported exhaustion.

My wife is in incredible physical shape - cycle 20 miles and run another 5-10 in a day, etc. But when it comes to any family activity from meet the teacher night to piano recitals to sex she's "exhausted".


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I believe chronic fatigue can be just that or it can be a form of sub-conscious avoidance. How many of us can jump out of bed at the crack of dawn on the weekend to do something we enjoy but on work mornings can barely drag ourselves out of bed? I think when you dread something your body gives off signs of being tired so as try to avoid it. 

If your spouse is always tired when it's time for sex it could actually be that he/she is tired. In that situation helping with chores around the house will help. It could also be there are deeper issues in which case taking on additional chores will have zero impact.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

MaritimeGuy said:


> To me if you're unhappy with the sex in your marriage and you're not prepared to break up the marriage over it you're pretty much dead in the water.
> 
> In a negotiating course I took the instructor kept referring to BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Basically what would result if an agreement can't be reached. The person with the best BATNA is the one that holds the power.
> 
> ...


This is revealing and not in a good way. The assumption behind the negotiating approach is that the LD partner is going to have sex as a favor to the HD spouse.

It overlooks the whole realm of seduction and courtship, not to mention the other issues I've raised here.

Have you men really all given up on that?


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I believe chronic fatigue can be just that or it can be a form of sub-conscious avoidance. How many of us can jump out of bed at the crack of dawn on the weekend to do something we enjoy but on work mornings can barely drag ourselves out of bed? I think when you dread something your body gives off signs of being tired so as try to avoid it.
> 
> If your spouse is always tired when it's time for sex it could actually be that he/she is tired. In that situation helping with chores around the house will help. It could also be there are deeper issues in which case taking on additional chores will have zero impact.


Fatigue and exhaustion are genuine but very often there is something else at work too: resentment. And one of the most common sources of resentment is an inequitable home life. In which case taking on additional chores will have a huge impact.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

nightmoves8 said:


> I am reading where some think I am weak for not filing or leaving. Well, it is certainly not what I want at all. I do read with pain the fact that many feel this can/will never change.


Good for you. Don't assume things cannot change without at least trying to make changes. Remember that there are many potential problems and you need to figure out your own situation.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

ladymisato said:


> This is revealing and not in a good way. The assumption behind the negotiating approach is that the LD partner is going to have sex as a favor to the HD spouse.
> 
> It overlooks the whole realm of seduction and courtship, not to mention the other issues I've raised here.
> 
> Have you men really all given up on that?


You're right. Maybe that wasn't the best way to express it. I agree having sex with your spouse is not about negotiating. I'm not interested in having sex with a woman that has sex with me in exchange for something unrelated to sex. i.e. I want her to be having sex with me because she enjoys it. 

My point was you need to be prepared for the possibility your spouse simply is not interested in sex. In that case you have two options: 1.) put up and shut up...or 2.) get out. Trying to convince them they should be having sex with you simply because you're married is a futile effort. At best you're going to get resentful pity sex. 

As you point out though there is a good chance it is not necessarily that the person is simply 'LD'. There are other dynamics at play that if changed can lead to a positive sex life. The trick is figuring out precisely what those dynamics are and adressing them in a positive way.

A radio host on sex issues used to refer to it as "flip the trash cans". As in, if you find yourself in a situation where your spouse appears to be neglecting your needs, you need to do something drastic to grab their attention. Then when you know they're listening explain how you feel and how your interactions (or lack of interactions) with them are affecting you. Give them an opportunity to explain their side with the ideal that you'll be able to start working towards a solution. No more hinting, suggesting, nagging etc. Spell it out in no uncertain terms. If after that they choose not to work with you they can't say they weren't aware of the situation and you can't say you didn't try everything to work it out. 

To me...at the end of the day...if you can't fix it...for whatever reason...why put up with it then cry the blues because you're not having the sex you want?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Night,

One thing I've noticed about the type situation you are in, is that normal rules of engagement are worse than ineffective, they are actually counter productive. 

Step 1 is acknowledging that you are in a hole. You have done that. 

Step 2 is recognizing that standard response patterns don't work, in fact they often make things worse. You look to be about halfway through this step. 

Step 3 is changing your response patterns in a very intentional and consistent manner, accepting from the outset that ultimately your wife is going to either rejoin you in the marriage, or leave the marriage. Step (3) isn't all that difficult if you truly believe deep down that all those good things about yourself are true. That belief will keep you calm, knowing that you and the kids are going to be ok. 

Once you truly believe that you and your children will be ok with or without your wife, you will have a shot at saving your marriage. 

Until you believe that, you have zero chance at pulling this off. 





nightmoves8 said:


> Wow....as the official OP here....am really astounded by the genuine posts and the opinions.
> 
> So - as a lot of people are asking questions - I will first try and fill in the answers.
> 
> ...


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This right here is an extremely dangerous post. There are so many desperate guys who will read this and think that they need to do more cooking or cleaning or laundry, and honestly you almost never see that work on these forums. Quite the opposite in fact.


yeah, putting on an apron and getting all beta is not going to work. But a woman who is exhausted is not going to be an enthusiastic sex partner either

For those that do have a few bux, a maid service in once a week can do wonders. Do all the bathrooms, kitchen, wash the floors, vacuum. That leaves a lot of time free for nookie. It at least removes the excuse that "I am exhausted"


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> yeah, putting on an apron and getting all beta is not going to work.


It's not as simple as that, of course, but you'd be surprised what a step in that direction can accomplish in most marriages.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> It's not as simple as that, of course, but you'd be surprised what a step in that direction can accomplish in most marriages.


Eh. There are two different issues (or maybe three) at play here. In a housework = sex equation, that is an unbalanced equation, and does not work. But it does not explain the entirety of the situation many of us face/have faced. 

You get married. You marry this cool guy who makes you laugh and lights your fire. If you move in first, you get an inkling that you have different expectations as it relates to managing the responsibilities. But you think, we will communicate. We will work together. No hitch in the marriage plans stride because you love each other.

Then some years happen. You start to think, why is this all my responsibility? I know I am not supposed to nag. But open conversation yields a bunch of yes, dears. One load of dishes that otherwise would be done by me. But he really doesn't GET IT. Most of us were not raised with real effective limit setting techniques. So we just keep taking care of business. We do the stuff. We bring up how all this stuff is wearing us down. And he kinda hears, but not really. 

And the worst thing of all happens. You develop resentment. <--- Bad.

And then he finally gets something is up when your desire tanks because you are resentful, and resentment is the death knell of respect. So he asks you what he can do to get laid again. And you tell him what you think you know from the past years. You have been doing everything. So he starts to "help" you. 

This has problems on so many levels. 
1. Since the view is that he is "helping", the fact that he is not manning up to take his full share of the RESPONSIBILITY for the work, the respect angle is not being addressed.
2. Since he views that he is "helping", he often does a lot less and needs to be reminded and, indeed nagged, which both is not much help and further diminishes the view that he is a MAN responsible for his **** AND increases the view that he is just another child that she has to take care of but has no hope of raising into an actual adult.
3. It engenders further resentment rather than the hoped for appreciation.

What winds up happening is that neither one of them understands that there are issues greater than equality on volume of work output, but resentment at the lack of taking responsibility and the lack of respect for his manhood.

How do you fix that with more loads of dishes?


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> ...
> 
> And the worst thing of all happens. You develop resentment. <--- Bad.
> 
> ...


You got so much right I wanted to "like" your post but then you got a lot wrong too.

So here is where you went off track: you didn't appreciate his help. You didn't recognize the start of getting your marriage back on track.

Resentment kills the desire for intimacy (or for you men, sex).

But I'm not laying this all on the husbands. Wives who nurse their resentment are what give rise to all the cynicism we read from men here.

Like it or not, it is still a social expectation that women do the housework. Usually, women are cleaner. They are more upset with a messy home. And although more women are breadwinners or, at least, sharing the breadwinning responsibility, men still expect their wives to keep the home.

So instead of resenting your husband when he "helps" you keep the home, how about giving him credit for the effort and guiding him positively?

And men, you need to be more patient with your resentful wives. Things won't change overnight. Instead of trying and quitting when you don't get immediate results, try persevering until you've burned off the resentment that's built up over the years. Once the exhaustion is lifted then the resentment begins to lift and then, finally, she'll start to see things differently.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> You got so much right I wanted to "like" your post but then you got a lot wrong too.
> 
> So here is where you went off track: you didn't appreciate his help. You didn't recognize the start of getting your marriage back on track.


I was not exactly speaking about my own experience entirely. My experience overlaps my description, but some of the experience was those of others I have met in RL or online. My experience was different in the sense that I affected effective limit setting early on so resentment did not have the chance to raise its ugly head.


No I would not have appreciated "help". Help in forming a life of wonderfulness is not what I would like. Partnership is what I would like. And thankfully, have!


> Resentment kills the desire for intimacy (or for you men, sex).


I don't agree. Resentment does not lessen most men's desire for sex. That difference is notable in how men and women react to the nonsexual aspects of the relationships impact on sex.



> But I'm not laying this all on the husbands. Wives who nurse their resentment are what give rise to all the cynicism we read from men here.


All? No. Some. Certainly.




> Like it or not, it is still a social expectation that women do the housework.


Maybe in your mind. Maybe where you live. Maybe in your situation. I have as much of a white collar job as my husband since I went back to work. Why is housework exclusively my job? Times have changed. Women are expected to work outside of the home to maintain a standard of living, raise the children and maintain the home. It does not make a lot of sense.



> Usually, women are cleaner. They are more upset with a messy home. And although more women are breadwinners or, at least, sharing the breadwinning responsibility, men still expect their wives to keep the home.


I would not care to be married to such a man.



> So instead of resenting your husband when he "helps" you keep
> the home, how about giving him credit for the effort and guiding him positively?


Guiding him? That is actually part of my point. If I have to guide him, he is a child. And it will never light my sexual fire. Never. I did not marry a moron or a child. If I have to guide him to meet a challenge as daunting as the dishes, then I WILL lose respect for him. 


> And men, you need to be more patient with your resentful wives.


I disagree. You need to alternately meet your responsibilities to your household and put your your attractive and manly foot down if she is being a *****.



> Things won't change overnight. Instead of trying and quitting when you don't get immediate results, try persevering until you've burned off the resentment that's built up over the years. Once the exhaustion is lifted then the resentment begins to lift and then, finally, she'll start to see things differently.


Ok I disagree here as well. That is a recipe for continuing the dysfunction that has been present for years.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't agree. Resentment does not lessen most men's desire for sex. That difference is notable in how men and women react to the nonsexual aspects of the relationships impact on sex.


I should have been clearer. I agree, men will stick their penis practically anywhere. I am talking about the resentment that many wives feel. It does lessen our desire for intimacy and sex.



> All? No. Some. Certainly.


I think it explains most of what you read from men here.



> Maybe in your mind. Maybe where you live. Maybe in your situation. I have as much of a white collar job as my husband since I went back to work. Why is housework exclusively my job? Times have changed. Women are expected to work outside of the home to maintain a standard of living, raise the children and maintain the home. It does not make a lot of sense.


Saying "times have changed" doesn't change the times. We are both observing the same thing but I'm saying, therefore, the times haven't changed all that much.



> Guiding him? That is actually part of my point. If I have to guide him, he is a child. And it will never light my sexual fire. Never. I did not marry a moron or a child. If I have to guide him to meet a challenge as daunting as the dishes, then I WILL lose respect for him.


Then you will not see much change and you will continue to resent that he only "helps" you with your housework.



> I disagree. You need to alternately meet your responsibilities to your household and put your your attractive and manly foot down if she is being a *****. Ok I disagree here as well. That is a recipe for continuing the dysfunction that has been present for years.


Yes, we agree on the problem but disagree on the solution.

Simply declaring that "times have changed" does not turn a husband into a contributor in the home and expecting that will only breed further resentment.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

What is domestic assault about?


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

The truth is that if your Refuser gave you an honest answer you would probably end up blowing up the marriage and destroying their cosy little world which you provide for them.

So by avoiding the issue, or out right lying about it, with their many different reasons on why they cant have sex that night, they keep you stringed along, while you continue to provide for their well being.

I am a firm believer that when sex dries up in a marriage barring any medically diagnosed issues (not self diagnoses) that the possibillity that an affair might be taking place must always be examined.

At the end of the day you cant force your spouse to sleep with you but you can choose on whether you will tolerate their foul behavour.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> I am in a riddle wrapped in an enigma in many ways.


You are afraid of the thought of leaving, she is afraid of the thought of facing herself in therapy, you continue to stay despite her avoiding therapy and introspection and thoughtful work, and she continues to make you miserable and round and round you go. 

Have any of these therapists mentioned that you seem co-dependent? Work on yourself first. Go to therapy on your own and figure it out.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

NoraJane,

Yes, it has been suggested. Have worked on that (although it comes and goes again).
When working on it I certaiy have gained some perspective and some clarity. Also- have gotten more grounded.

You first paragraph - is not inaccurate I suppose. But there is a LOT in between that may not make it as simple as that.
(at least the me)

But - maybe in the end - it is.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

john117 said:


> Self reported exhaustion.
> 
> My wife is in incredible physical shape - cycle 20 miles and run another 5-10 in a day, etc. But when it comes to any family activity from meet the teacher night to piano recitals to sex she's "exhausted".


Frustrating as all get-out, isn't it?

But we can all be too tired to do something we don't want to do, including sex. The trick is to not use it as an excuse. Your wife wants to bike 20 miles and run 5-10, whether she's tired or not, because it's important to her.

The parental/family/intimacy things that she's shirking because she's "too tired" is unfortunate. Her priorities are very far out of whack, to the point where if there's no personal gain for her, she's not interested. And THAT'S the problem, not exhaustion.

At some point in her life, this will click with her. When the kids are grown up and out of the house, when you've moved on, when she's older and reminiscing about her life - whenever. She'll have this mini-epiphany that it was all for naught and that she missed out on a lot of important things (or things that were important to OTHERS) all for the sake of, in this case, keeping her body in shape.

FWIW, I do the same thing, just on a lesser scale. I play sports several times a week, and I go, no matter how tired I am. I don't miss a game because I'm tired, ever. But if there's a household chore like vacuuming that needs to be done, I can and will use the "too tired" excuse and do it tomorrow. That's not the type of thing I'll regret when I'm older, but it's essentially the same thing. I WILL do what I want to do, regardless of tired I am, and use the "too tired" excuse to put aside other things that I don't want to do.

As those of us in HD/LD relationships know all too well, "tired" isn't an excuse for sex for us. In fact, very little is!

It's just a shame when that excuse is used not only to get out of sex, but to get out of other family obligations.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's exactly my plan. Her main priority is work at 75%, then exercise at 20% and the rest at 5%. 

Let's see that long term...


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

alexm said:


> Frustrating as all get-out, isn't it?
> 
> But we can all be too tired to do something we don't want to do, including sex. The trick is to not use it as an excuse. Your wife wants to bike 20 miles and run 5-10, whether she's tired or not, because it's important to her.
> 
> ...


I believe that's accurate. In terms of the sport analogy I expect part of the reason you go even when you're tired is you don't want to let your team down. The extrapolation being when a spouse is too tired for sex it lets the marriage team down. 

I agree that being tired is probably not the real reason as much as being resentful for a perceived imbalance in the relationship. That imbalance being real or perhaps only perceived depending on the relationship in question.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I believe that's accurate. In terms of the sport analogy I expect part of the reason you go even when you're tired is you don't want to let your team down. The extrapolation being when a spouse is too tired for sex it lets the marriage team down.
> 
> I agree that being tired is probably not the real reason as much as being resentful for a perceived imbalance in the relationship. That imbalance being real or perhaps only perceived depending on the relationship in question.


From how it is described it IS real. Her priorities are for working and her fitness. The rest of it to her by her actions is simply the background.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

treyvion said:


> From how it is described it IS real. Her priorities are for working and her fitness. The rest of it to her by her actions is simply the background.


I believe the key word is 'priorities'. If she can find energy for those activities can't she do the same for sex? 

Obviously if a person doesn't prioritize work they risk losing their job. If they don't prioritize fitness they risk losing their health. At the end of the day though why do we want those things? Is it just to exist? Or is it to be in a position to provide for and enjoy those we love? 

To me balance is the key. If you focus too much on one part of your life you risk putting other parts in jeopardy. I suppose we each have to make our own choice what we're prepared to risk losing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I think the thing that is missed in the whole conversation is that every relationship, including marriage or maybe especially marriage, requires effective limit setting. When I complained to my husband about the huge responsibility disparity in our marriage, and how he "ought" to be part of that partnership, he did not really get it. It was not until I started not doing the stuff, putting aside his laundry, removing him from the checking account, cancelling his cell phone... None of this was capricious punishment. I simply was not going to do all the housework, attempt to pay bills with no money in the account because he spent so much, or cell phone bills that were huge because he would not stay within his minutes (remember minutes?  ).

Yah she SHOULD consider sex a priority. But she won't until an effective limit indicating it is required happens. But the sticky wicket is what can that be? To be effective, it has to be actions taken by you. Non capricious, indicating what you are, or are not willing to do yourself. That is why I think the 180 is more likely than any conversations over and over will ever be. You go about being the best YOU. Then when your confidence is back and you are hotter than ever, you can make a choice about what you are going to do, what you will accept.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I believe the key word is 'priorities'. If she can find energy for those activities can't she do the same for sex?
> 
> Obviously if a person doesn't prioritize work they risk losing their job. If they don't prioritize fitness they risk losing their health. At the end of the day though why do we want those things? Is it just to exist? Or is it to be in a position to provide for and enjoy those we love?
> 
> To me balance is the key. If you focus too much on one part of your life you risk putting other parts in jeopardy. I suppose we each have to make our own choice what we're prepared to risk losing.


Part of it is priorities and part of it is a narcissm. She's doing things she feels will benefit her. Why would she put 70% of her time on the spouse when she already gets the commitment and output that she needs at 2%? 

You can help them to redirect their priorities. I'm now coming to the belief it will not be by discussing it directly. 

I think you can discuss it directly about one time and make sure that it is clear what you are saying and that they at least heard it, they may not agree or be so obtuse that they just don't see it.

Then the strategies to help them are pretty much helping them out by not doing anything for them, ignoring them, being selfish and doing some things you should not be doing in large quantities. 

Then they will hear and understand.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

murphy5 said:


> I think the crux of the HD not understanding the reason the other person is LD..._is that there is no reason_. The LD's mind just works differently. Does not think of sex. Does not get horny. Never gets a hard-on/wet panties from thinking of sex....


No not always. Some people think of it but in a purely negative way. And not in a Calvinist prudish way either that it in and of itself is bad, but that the employment of it is. It's about power and control.

Everyone's met someone on the spectrum of being a control freak but have you really met someone for who power and control is the only thing of any importance? Sex is only one big obvious facet of it. But if you look at them closely they are 'No' people about everything. Whatever it is, 'No'. Some people call this a martyr complex or an enabler but it's all of the same thing. To me it's a kind of paranoia where the sheer act of wielding misery is what they're about. They LIKE being unhappy but they want to make everyone else as unhappy and feel as sorry for them as they do. And how they do that is "no".


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Not sure about a leaving a wife who's mentally ill... I don't think the OP has yet exhausted all the avenues... we don't even know if he has kids or not... if he has, I wouldn't leave my kids with her...


That's a call you have to make. "Mental Illness" runs the gamut from something you might be able to address even possibly improve to things which are pathologies. If your partner was a psychopath would you stick around hoping they'd 'get better?'

You have to decide whether it's something they do or it's who they are.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

If your partner is tallying up your 'achievements' in a little book in her head like it's a video game, you're wasting your time. On the other hand, just calling their bluff is also a waste of time since you can never out-wait a crazy person.


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Ooooh I must strongly disagree with this, at least for the vast majority of sexless marriages. I have counseled a number of friends (all guys) throughout the years regarding sexual problems in their marriages. In no cases had they or their wives actually lost interest in sex, even if that's what they'd initially perceived. Lack of chemistry ("desire for each other") was actually the culprit, but in most cases they couldn't pin down why. 

Discovering the real reasons desire falters is a difficult problem for several reasons:
1. It forces us to deal with a highly sensitive and vulnerable side of ourselves
2. Communicating genuine disappointments in marriage may compound resentment, even though it's a necessary part of the resolution process
3. People often don't know themselves well enough to consider all physical, emotional, and spiritual underpinnings.

If you can get your spouse to at least admit there's a problem and work with you to resolve it, you're better off than most.


Good luck 
-seahorse




murphy5 said:


> I think the crux of the HD not understanding the reason the other person is LD..._is that there is no reason_. The LD's mind just works differently. Does not think of sex. Does not get horny. Never gets a hard-on/wet panties from thinking of sex....


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This right here is an extremely dangerous post. There are so many desperate guys who will read this and think that they need to do more cooking or cleaning or laundry, and honestly you almost never see that work on these forums. Quite the opposite in fact.


On TAM we all know this approach doesn't work. There are a lot of reasons why it does not work.

Now if you had a loving wife and just had a new kid and you where letting her do all the work, then that's a different story.

A loving wife where your needs are met, but she's focused on all the chores and tired, in a loving wife situation, picking up some of the chore load will help her to appreciate you more. Because this type of woman DOES appreciate you.

On TAM many of the situations are these power dynamics scenarios and things don't exactly work the way you think they should.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

seahorse said:


> Ooooh I must strongly disagree with this, at least for the vast majority of sexless marriages. I have counseled a number of friends (all guys) throughout the years regarding sexual problems in their marriages. In no cases had they or their wives actually lost interest in sex, even if that's what they'd initially perceived. Lack of chemistry ("desire for each other") was actually the culprit, but in most cases they couldn't pin down why.
> 
> Discovering the real reasons desire falters is a difficult problem for several reasons:
> 1. It forces us to deal with a highly sensitive and vulnerable side of ourselves
> ...


Were you able to "fix" some of these chemistry issues?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

treyvion said:


> On TAM we all know this approach doesn't work. There are a lot of reasons why it does not work.
> 
> Now if you had a loving wife and just had a new kid and you where letting her do all the work, then that's a different story.
> 
> ...


I'll go one step further... your wife knows that you are doing all that so you two can have sex and that's even a bigger turn-off...


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Condescending, I suppose? Haha! :smthumbup:

These were friends and acquaintances seeking out trusted advice. Some got better. Some didn't. One marriage ended in divorce; the wife had already left mentally.



treyvion said:


> Were you able to "fix" some of these chemistry issues?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

seahorse said:


> Condescending, I suppose? Haha! :smthumbup:
> 
> These were friends and acquaintances seeking out trusted advice. Some got better. Some didn't. One marriage ended in divorce; the wife had already left mentally.


I want to hear of some of the successes.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Men need to recognize a trap when they see one and not jump into it. Modern marriage is a lousy contract for most men. It offers them really nothing beyond what they could get by just living with a woman but it immediately puts huge liability on their shoulders the second she says "I do".
> A man who just dated a woman wouldn't likely put up with months or years of no sex. He'd just show her the door and they both could drive on with their separate lives. In marriage, he has to typically pay huge to get out of the deal and it's all but guaranteed that the loveless zombie will get custody of his kids. He's screwed if he stays and he's screwed if he leaves. She knows this and consequently has no motivation to change. In fact, the more miserable he is, the sooner he will die, the sooner she will get the big pay day.


Damn, unbelievable, you sure do make me glad I'm not a man!


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Ok, anecdotally:

To blame in one: the husband acting like a man-child, and it turned off the wife. He still struggles with it but now understands why the wife had so little sexual interest in him. His previous problems with porn addiction returned with a vengeance once she was regularly turning him down. He has been steadily improving by taking responsibility and making his family a priority. His wife, seeing some genuine change, has been more willing to give him sex than she had been previously. But he is not out of the woods yet, a fact still owed to the poor behaviors he now recognizes and owns. So in this case, it was essentially a behavioral problem in him which led to her disrespect. Generally speaking, women who've lost respect for their husbands do not desire sex with them.

To blame in another case: an affair had taken place many years before by the husband. His wife still struggled over why he had allowed his mind to stray to the point he would be willing to go all the way with someone else. So although the affair was over, she never had resolution for "why?" Together they explored the unmet needs in their marriage, and they developed some safeguards for recognizing if/when it happens again. 

--> Wisely, he did not divulge unnecessary details of that affair. <--

Slowly she came to trust him again. (Fear and chemistry can't coexist.) He also made monumental efforts to show her love, even to the point that she could believe it. Today they have a beautiful marriage, whereas many years before, they had come fantastically close to divorce. In this case the root issue was loss of trust and it's accomplice: fear.


Many, many different reasons that can lead to loss of desire -- some easy to fix, some not.


-seahorse




treyvion said:


> I want to hear of some of the successes.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I agree that the causes of LD can be vastly different, but that the one thing they all have in common is the loss of sexual desire from a wife for her husband. 

Often it has to do with loss of respect, and sometimes it's easy to pinpoint why when there is horribly bad behavior from a husband, but usually it's murky. 

Sometimes women don't even know why they don't desire their husbands any more. I can attest that losing attraction for your husband can be a helpless feeling. 

I certainly can't speak for all husbands who find themselves in this dynamic, but one common theme from many of the cases brought to TAM is failure by the husband to set boundaries on his wife's behavior. I guess you could blame the "Nice Guy" syndrome, but I think that many times it's a slow process that happens over time. 

In the case of my own marriage, it happened after we had kids. Instead of putting his foot down when I demanded more and more and more from him, my husband just kept giving more and more and more until he was basically tapped out and had stepped over some line and lost the ability to step back. He stopped setting boundaries because he wasn't sure what to expect from parenthood, and he wasn't sure what was "fair" to me. But what he failed to see was that, over time, he lost control of his own life and his own happiness. We stayed mired in that pit for a long time. 

Hindsight is 50/50, I suppose. But if you have a partner who knows how to set clear boundaries, knows when to say, "I can't do this anymore" when things FIRST become an issue, then that is a gift. 

"I'm too tired for sex" means "I'm not sexually attracted to you," just in case anyone isn't clear on that. When I said it (and I said it a lot, because that's what it felt like), I honestly did think that being too tired was the reason. I know better now.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Gettingit nailed it.

NAILED it. 

the caviate here, and its tough nut to crack, is the pain the wife delivers when said husband tries do enforce boundaries or stick up for himself. Its almost like as said wife that gettingit mentions is demanding tons of things that she secretly wants rejected. But there is a painthreshold that varies on every guy. For example, I slowed down on doing things with my friends after marriage, because my wife would make me feel like crap for going out or doing something with the guys once every week or few weeks. Things like watching a football game, going out for a beer, golfing etc.. I stopped. I didnt want the fight. Juice wasnt worth the squeeze. This is a classic example of when I should have rejected her demand or ignored her complaint and perservered.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Gettingit nailed it.
> 
> NAILED it.
> 
> the caviate here, and its tough nut to crack, is the pain the wife delivers when said husband tries do enforce boundaries or stick up for himself. Its almost like as said wife that gettingit mentions is demanding tons of things that she secretly wants rejected. But there is a painthreshold that varies on every guy. For example, I slowed down on doing things with my friends after marriage, because my wife would make me feel like crap for going out or doing something with the guys once every week or few weeks. Things like watching a football game, going out for a beer, golfing etc.. I stopped. I didnt want the fight. Juice wasnt worth the squeeze. This is a classic example of when I should have rejected her demand or ignored her complaint and perservered.


What the reality is, when the man stops standing up for himself and tries to avoid fights that's when the libido wanes. A woman wants a man who can stand up for her, the way he can demonstrate that is by standing up for himself first.

Think about it, when you first met you was doing all of those fun things with your friends and living your life. This made you attractive. Keep doing the things she found attractive in you.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Doesn't there have to be a reason why one partner doesn't want sex? I know everyone is thinking, "duh," but it seems in what I've heard over the years from some is that there is no normal desire pattern; just because someone doesn't want sex regularly doesn't mean they are abnormal.

That may be true. I can't say that normal is twice a day or twice a week, but I do think once every six weeks or more is starting to push things. If two people were young, healthy, in shape, and in love, and had any kind of a normal life, why would they not want sex a few times a month? Couples who haven't had sex in a year, or can't remember the last time really baffle me. There has to be something other than it's just their norm, right?

- stress
- medical issue
- not attracted to spouse 
- traumatic life experience

It has to be something.


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Agree with you! At least for the vast majority of sexless/LD marriages... also should be in list: resentment

-seahorse




southbound said:


> If two people were young, healthy, in shape, and in love, and had any kind of a normal life, why would they not want sex a few times a month? Couples who haven't had sex in a year, or can't remember the last time really baffle me. There has to be something other than it's just their norm, right?
> 
> - stress
> - medical issue
> ...


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

GettingIt, thanks for the truly excellent post! In either direction, the dynamic feels sad and helpless... 

-seahorse




GettingIt said:


> I agree that the causes of LD can be vastly different, but that the one thing they all have in common is the loss of sexual desire from a wife for her husband.
> 
> Often it has to do with loss of respect, and sometimes it's easy to pinpoint why when there is horribly bad behavior from a husband, but usually it's murky.
> 
> ...


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> What the reality is, when the man stops standing up for himself and tries to avoid fights that's when the libido wanes. A woman wants a man who can stand up for her, the way he can demonstrate that is by standing up for himself first.
> 
> Think about it, when you first met you was doing all of those fun things with your friends and living your life. This made you attractive. Keep doing the things she found attractive in you.


 
100%

so was it all a test? and why do i need a test after 5 years of dating, a $20K ring, and a $20k honeymoon? I failed the test. I just wish A. the test never existed or B. the test was before the marriage/kids.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Interesting that I've seen opinions that women don't want sex because their husbands don't care about them and don't don enough. Here people are also saying that women don't want sex when they lose respect for their husbands because they are doing too much.

The setting boundaries concept can be difficult, because women have the option of using the "weakness" approach. Many men feel that they have an obligation to help women, especially those that they love, when those women are in trouble. Women can use this to get a wide range of things done by pretending to be too weak / helpless to do them themselves. Quite possibly they are at the same time feeling their partners are "wimps" for giving in. It is an unfair tactic because it uses someone's love and caring against them. 

I don't mean to be just picking on women. Men without scruples have various tricks from threatening to abandon their partners to get more sex, to calling them Slu.. for wanting sex.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> 100%
> 
> so was it all a test? and why do i need a test after 5 years of dating, a $20K ring, and a $20k honeymoon? I failed the test. I just wish A. the test never existed or B. the test was before the marriage/kids.


It is not a test, it is called being your own person. In other words, keep in contact with your buddies, keep your hobbies and don't hover over us expecting us to fulfill every aspect of your life. When you become enmeshed with us it makes us think that the cool, alpha, independent guy was just a fraud.

Everyone joins with their spouse in a partnership called marriage. In business two companies exchange resources in a partnership. It is not a hostile takeover, if it is then you married the wrong person. If you don't have resources (your qualities before marriage) to share then it becomes one sided. Which means that the person who stayed true to themselves does all of the heavy lifting spiritually, emotionally and mentally.

This is why wives get turned off on nice guys, they become too enmeshed and start to hover looking for signs that you still desire them. They become needy and fulfilling every desire becomes like trying to fill a bottomless pit. Women are not attracted to burdens.

When we share our day, we would like you to share yours. Don't try to solve all of my problems, I was able to deal before you and I will have to deal after you. Don't spend your whole day trying to figure out how to make me happy so I will want sex, because when we were dating you had your life and I had mine and we were having sex just fine without you hovering over me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Seems like that hovering would make you feel like he didn't trust you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No

This just isn't true. A fancy party followed by an expensive vacation - that isn't where you cross the rubicon. 

You cross the rubicon when you conceive your first child. 

All else is cleanly reversible. 

And - most of the men here - who are seriously unhappy with their sex lives - got a very clear picture of the trend line before the first baby. 



QUOTE=BostonBruins32;10214625]100%

so was it all a test? and why do i need a test after 5 years of dating, a $20K ring, and a $20k honeymoon? I failed the test. I just wish A. the test never existed or B. the test was before the marriage/kids.[/QUOTE]


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> It's not as simple as that, of course, but you'd be surprised what a step in that direction can accomplish in most marriages.




How is it you feel comfortable making declarations about "most marriages?"


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

norajane said:


> You are afraid of the thought of leaving, she is afraid of the thought of facing herself in therapy, you continue to stay despite her avoiding therapy and introspection and thoughtful work, and she continues to make you miserable and round and round you go.
> 
> Have any of these therapists mentioned that you seem co-dependent? Work on yourself first. Go to therapy on your own and figure it out.




Night, 



The list you gave a bit earlier about your tendencies (towards co-dependence, for instance), and the various considerations you are trying to balance -- including your love for your wife -- left me thinking the best possible thing you can do for all involved is to make sure you are working on you, shedding any tendencies towards behaviors that weaken you, and making peace with reality. The most effective way to do that, in my experience, involves regular counseling sessions with a suitable professional.



If you aren't doing that, you are skipping one of the simplest and healthiest things you could do for yourself, your kids, and your wife.



p.s. Stay or leave, that's obviously your call. If you feel pressured here, that's regrettable.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> As an LD woman, I know I can still get turned on and wet when a man has certain characteristics. He's got to be entirely confident in himself, strong yet not aloof. The strong silent type does nothing for me. He's got to be warm, open, funny. I want him to be a leader.
> 
> Notice that very little of what I said has anything to do with how he looks, how in shape he is, how big I think his member is, etc. Attraction is often mental. *If you can make me laugh, *think, and enjoy your company, I will want to have sex with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That bit linking humor and attraction gives me pause, especially when juxtaposed against this little gem of honesty from my kid earlier today. It was her response to my attempt to amuse her with a photo and a little story from my trip to the car dealership today...













Suddenly, my mostly celibate marriage is starting to make sense... My wife must have a terrible sense of how funny I am!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I agree that the causes of LD can be vastly different, but that the one thing they all have in common is the loss of sexual desire from a wife for her husband.
> 
> Often it has to do with loss of respect, and sometimes it's easy to pinpoint why when there is horribly bad behavior from a husband, but usually it's murky.
> 
> ...





techmom said:


> What the reality is, when the man stops standing up for himself and tries to avoid fights that's when the libido wanes. A woman wants a man who can stand up for her, the way he can demonstrate that is by standing up for himself first.
> 
> Think about it, when you first met you was doing all of those fun things with your friends and living your life. This made you attractive. Keep doing the things she found attractive in you.





techmom said:


> It is not a test, it is called being your own person. In other words, keep in contact with your buddies, keep your hobbies and don't hover over us expecting us to fulfill every aspect of your life. When you become enmeshed with us it makes us think that the cool, alpha, independent guy was just a fraud.
> 
> Everyone joins with their spouse in a partnership called marriage. In business two companies exchange resources in a partnership. It is not a hostile takeover, if it is then you married the wrong person. If you don't have resources (your qualities before marriage) to share then it becomes one sided. Which means that the person who stayed true to themselves does all of the heavy lifting spiritually, emotionally and mentally.
> 
> ...





I think these posts explain very well why all the things I did to dig us out if this hole failed, and even made matters worse. Words quoted above resonate with things my wife has said multiple times, but never sunk into my brain. 

I cannot overstate how insightful this is. That things might work like this is something I was clueless about until fairly recently.

I don't think it explains HOW we got into a downward spiral of loss of self, loss of respect, and loss of attraction and desire. (In our case, depression and stress and extended sleep deprivation, and all sorts of anxieties -- all arriving as we became parents -- played a big role, I think). I suspect there are many ways to get into that spiral. I suspect regardless of how it started, many could benefit from understanding those post quoted above.

Thanks.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> 
> 
> Interesting that I've seen opinions that women don't want sex because their husbands don't care about them and don't don enough. Here people are also saying that women don't want sex when they lose respect for their husbands because they are doing too much.
> ...




I would guess in many cases the erosion that takes place from inadequate boundaries and limits is driven by less-than-conscious motives of both parties. It feels good in the moment -- e.g. by me focusing on her I can evade awareness of my role getting us her and the difficult choices at hand, and by her continuing to demand and/or take more from me she might feel justified somehow in having ever-decreasing attraction for me..Or something like that -- my point is there is often something we feel relief from as we pursue our own destruction.





Btw, any and all of these behaviors and situations are equal opportunity.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> It is not a test, it is called being your own person. In other words, keep in contact with your buddies, keep your hobbies and don't hover over us expecting us to fulfill every aspect of your life. When you become enmeshed with us it makes us think that the cool, alpha, independent guy was just a fraud.
> 
> Everyone joins with their spouse in a partnership called marriage. In business two companies exchange resources in a partnership. It is not a hostile takeover, if it is then you married the wrong person. If you don't have resources (your qualities before marriage) to share then it becomes one sided. Which means that the person who stayed true to themselves does all of the heavy lifting spiritually, emotionally and mentally.
> 
> ...


I probably should elaborate my question.

If I went out with my friends or carried out hobbies without her, I got a nasty attitude for the hours or days leading up to it. Was the attitude a test? I mean she wants me to have my own life like I did when we were dating right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

The no sex lifestyle in a marriage always has a reason. 

There are some, who will take whatever their reason(s) for causing the sexless marriage, to the grave with them. But at the same time dare their mate to step out of line with another. To reveal the truth, in their opinion, why there is no sexual desire would cause devastation. It is not easy to tell a spouse.. "I am not attracted to you sexually, and I need that in order to connect." If that is a couple's case. Lost of respect is surely another biggie, for lack of sexual desire. The reasons vary. 

Here is what I am willing to bet if it were possible, that-- At a moment of sheer frustration, from the one who is causing the marriage to go sexless, dropped some type of hint or hints why they've gone sexless or almost sexless. Ruminate for just a bit. You may just be surprised how much you already know.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I probably should elaborate my question.
> 
> If I went out with my friends or carried out hobbies without her, I got a nasty attitude for the hours or days leading up to it. Was the attitude a test? I mean she wants me to have my own life like I did when we were dating right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what I meant by the "hostile takeover". Some women feel that marriage means enmeshment. It doesn't. Marriage is a partnership. This is why women, like your wife, think that they want you around them 24/7, but they don't. They soon loose interest once you constantly give into their demands.

In society, we have been fed the wrong information about marriage. We expect our spouse to complete us, to fill the empty space. We look at our spouse as the half of the relationship instead of 2 whole people coming into a partnership.

This is not your wife's fault, we were all taught this misinformation. Which is why she lost interest, there is no mystery or interest anymore. You just exist, which is why she doesn't desire sex. You exchanged the man she fell in love with for this person who just does what she wants. Everybody gets bored with a robot, or a nice guy.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is what I meant by the "hostile takeover". Some women feel that marriage means enmeshment. It doesn't. Marriage is a partnership. This is why women, like your wife, think that they want you around them 24/7, but they don't. They soon loose interest once you constantly give into their demands.
> 
> In society, we have been fed the wrong information about marriage. We expect our spouse to complete us, to fill the empty space. We look at our spouse as the half of the relationship instead of 2 whole people coming into a partnership.
> 
> This is not your wife's fault, we were all taught this misinformation. Which is why she lost interest, there is no mystery or interest anymore. You just exist, which is why she doesn't desire sex. You exchanged the man she fell in love with for this person who just does what she wants. Everybody gets bored with a robot, or a nice guy.


So I married a toddler. My daughter sometimes requests an apple for a snack, then when I get it for her she screams that she wanted crackers instead. 

I get why she lost interest. I don't get why it's ok that she tested me to see if I could comply to her wants, only to have it turn on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

To elaborate, look at the Disney movies and fairy tales we show our kids. They learn about the Prince Charming character and the princess who needs to be saved. Nothing is taught about being your own complete integrated person before you get married. So, we have 2 people who depend on one another to complete them, and we think that this will keep them in love forever.

Human nature is different, if we have something for 24/7 and can tell them what to do, we get bored. Women go for men who are active, lively, involved in doing fun stuff in life. Why let that go? 

We need to teach girls not to look for princes and look to be the best person they can be. Also, we need to take into account people with various personality disorders. We also need to teach girls to embrace their sexuality, from a young age. We need to let our boys express their emotions more.

It is sad that the only way most men feel that they can express their emotions is through sex. They are taught to suck it up, don't cry, be a man. The only safe haven is in the bed with a woman, there they can be safe to feel the love they lack in everyday life. That is sad and needs to change.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> So I married a toddler. My daughter sometimes requests an apple for a snack, then when I get it for her she screams that she wanted crackers instead.
> 
> I get why she lost interest. I don't get why it's ok that she tested me to see if I could comply to her wants, only to have it turn on me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't make it seem like your wife is consciously testing you, she is not. It may be confusing to her as well. Like I said, most of us expect to be enmeshed in marriage because we are taught that this is what marriage is. But in reality, it turns us off.

Women want stable marriages, we don't like to struggle either. But we are fighting against hundreds of years of teaching us to suppress our sexuality, clinginess with our partner, and all sorts of other junk. Not all women love the color pink, but we dress all girls in pink when they are born. That is just one example.

We don't like to loose attraction for our spouse, we want to stay in love forever. You guys can help by doing the simplest thing, be your integrated self. Keep the guy she fell in love with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's the happy path. In practice things are not static in a marriage and we need the ability to play multiple roles. 

I'm not sold on the idea of constant emotions. In my view emotions are the dessert in life, not the main course. In a marriage you need - in my view - rational thinking many times more than you need emotional thinking...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> That's the happy path. In practice things are not static in a marriage and we need the ability to play multiple roles.
> 
> I'm not sold on the idea of constant emotions. In my view emotions are the dessert in life, not the main course. In a marriage you need - in my view - rational thinking many times more than you need emotional thinking...


In life we are taught that emotions are dangerous and threatening. We are scared of their power, but if we learn how to express them in constructive ways then we will be better off. 

Boys and girls need to be taught on a more egalitarian basis, we teach boys one way and girls the other way. Then we wonder why we have all sorts of problems.:scratchhead:


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> So I married a toddler. My daughter sometimes requests an apple for a snack, then when I get it for her she screams that she wanted crackers instead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I don't understand what you mean by "why it is ok she...". OK according to whom? I don't see how ok vs. not ok has any relevancy here. The counterproductive nature of not setting limits and of not having healthy boundaries sucks, but it is what it is. 



Maybe I didn't understand what you were getting at?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> In life we are taught that emotions are dangerous and threatening. We are scared of their power, but if we learn how to express them in constructive ways then we will be better off.
> 
> 
> 
> Boys and girls need to be taught on a more egalitarian basis, we teach boys one way and girls the other way. Then we wonder why we have all sorts of problems.:scratchhead:



On a few occasions emotions are useful . You can't create art or architecture or photography without emotions. You can't fall in love without emotions. But there are lots of everyday things we do that don't need emotions. 

Emotions that are expressed raw and unabridged allow insights that are very valuable. But we tweak emotions as much as we tweak anything else. It's funny. We often don't even understand our own emotions.

Good thing I spent a fair amount of time studying emotional processing in decision analysis


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "why it is ok she...". OK according to whom? I don't see how ok vs. not ok has any relevancy here. The counterproductive nature of not setting limits and of not having healthy boundaries sucks, but it is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I didn't understand what you were getting at?


I probably didnt articulate it right.

Where I was going is that most threads on TAM shoot right to "nice guy" or something similar as the basis for a wife losing respect(then not wanting sex etc). Totally what Techmom described. 

Instead I think the bigger issue is the poisonous behavior, push and pull, of what I described with a toddler. "Have your own lives and be the man I met when we first dated. Be that guy that has his own life and I want my own life." Then for whatever reason, techmom says its society's conditioning, a spouse might make your life a living hell if you try to be the man she first dated or if you try to carry out your without her activities still. This external conditioning has to be a factor, though I really struggle with telling myself it's my mom's or the media's or the community's fault for things I do. That's just a personal opinion, but I do think Techmom is likely more right than wrong. 

I guess when we review why people lose interest in sex and or respect in thier spouse, we should consider worksessioning the push pull that went on leading up to this, rather than just the simple "stop puppydogging her, stop being a nice guy" resolution.

FYI, it's very early in the morning to be thinking this deeply so ignore my ramblings. B3 got up at 530 and my eyes are still barely open, even as I overcook these eggs and toast for her.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

This last page, when combined with other pages I read, totally confused me.

Seems that we are supposed to meet women's needs. Among those are being ourselves and taking care of our own lives. If I'm doing that, I don't have much time to take care of her needs. 

If I'm not enmeshed in her life, why would I want to take care of her needs? I love her, but I don't want to take care of her. I want to take care of myself and she will be happy with that, correct? That's the way it was when we started dating. I had my life and just asked her out when I wanted to go out with a woman and hopefully have sex. She worked toward pleasing me so that I would ask her out again, if she was attracted to me. 

I'm definitely confused. I don't think it's humanly possible to both take care of myself and do what she wants me to do to take care of her needs, unless those things are one and the same. In that case, I would take care of myself and she would be there for what is left over, if she cares to. 

:scratchhead: something isn't adding up


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm definitely confused. I don't think it's humanly possible to both take care of myself and do what she wants me to do to take care of her needs, unless those things are one and the same. In that case, I would take care of myself and she would be there for what is left over, if she cares to.
> 
> :scratchhead: something isn't adding up


I think it works when you continue to take care of yourself and your own needs, but invest some time and effort in meeting your partner's needs. She should be doing the same, and making some effort to meet your needs. This way you get at least - and probably more - of your needs met. If you focus solely on you own needs to the exclusion of hers, then you may as well be single. Relationships are partnerships, and you _mutually _work together on some things that are worthwhile to the partnership, while not neglecting the things that only you can do for yourself. In other words, the synergy between you creates more benefit than acting alone.

If one of you doesn't do your part, the relationship can fall apart.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

(ETA: This was in response to BB's response to me.)

In seeking to understand how things got this way, then, yes it is useful to acknowledge the push-pull. 



Do you buy into the notion that responding to the push-pull by losing a bit of yourself each time will eventually leave you a less attractive partner (not to mention feeling miserable)? If so, then it seems part of the solution is going to be developing a habit of resisting the temptation to lose bits of yourself. If you do so confidently, knowing it is right for you and the only way compatible with having a healthy relationship, then maybe she will catch on. Imagine if your response to your toddler making contradictory demands for snacks or whatever is OK, that you are here to serve without limits. The best you can do is to have clear boundaries and limits that work for you, and let the chips (or other unwanted snackfoods) fall where they may.



(I am not up-to-date on your situation. I don't mean to imply you are or are not handling things the way I described...I have no idea.)



Btw, I can recall multiple times when I was faced with my wife's stress level, unhappiness, even anger when a I WAS actively doing whatever chore or fix-it task that needed to be done, and yet Ai wasn't doing it fast enough and she was overwhelmed with having an infant and toddler to tend to. I could understand she was suffering, and let myself be push-pulled almost beyond recognition. It was a seductive way for me to try to cope and try to help her cope, or maybe I just couldn't think of a better approach. But it was a surprise to hear in my wife's most recent explanations of why she is not attracted to me is that I am not the happy exciting person I was when we first met. And, coupled with perspectives from women on this thread, I am feeling that understanding this dynamic is a key required if she and I can have a chance to recover. We may not. But at least I'll have me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MbH,

It seems the only reason to get married would be to bear and raise children. All of the rest can be done best by living apart and spending some time together when the need/desire arises. Does that make sense?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> In seeking to understand how things got this way, then, yes it is useful to acknowledge the push-pull.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Isn't that simply because you are taking care of her needs and have more responsibility than you did when you first met? 

I'm thinking, ":scratchhead: What did she expect?" That's normal in any marriage. It's normal for her to feel like you aren't as carefree. You aren't. It's normal for her to believe you don't do the things you did when you were single and act the same. You can't. You are married. 

See what I am getting at? It's a catch 22. I can either be single or married. I can have little responsibility and be carefree with my life, or I can have responsibility and change how I act to meet those. It's not possible to be both, that I can figure. Confusing. 

Maybe we think we can have it all, but we can't? We then become dissatisfied and go looking for something better. We find it because the person we meet doesn't have a responsibility to us, so they don't care about anything deep, just having some fun. Isn't that normal?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

"What would you expect?" is a thought that has crossed my mind many times, and has been assertively conveyed. The injustice of it all is something I have let weigh on me, perhaps more than it has been useful.

At the same time, I have to accept healthy limits are important, and I am the only who can set them and enforce them for myself.

I think in a relationship between healthy and compatible adults, there is not often a conflict between meeting the needs of one's partner and maintaining healthy boundaries and preserving one's self.

It is when one attempts to make the other responsible for things one should take responsibility for oneself that there is trouble. Expecting the other to shield you from reality, including consequences of his or her own choices is another doomed path.

But, whether she understands that or not, I do now and I will benefit by taking actions consistent with that.


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## thatdude (Oct 19, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This right here is an extremely dangerous post. There are so many desperate guys who will read this and think that they need to do more cooking or cleaning or laundry, and honestly you almost never see that work on these forums. Quite the opposite in fact.


Bingo! It sure hasn't helped me. I'm at a point where I pretty much know what I need to do, have the most honest conversation about sex that we've EVER had. My issue is I'm completely terrified of what I expect to be a completely combative set of responses from my wife (who has refused counseling in the past). It scares me because in my mind, it feels like this will be the end and I'll be forced into giving up completely.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Marriage is an institution which is not a natural state for humans. Humans used this institution to control property and family lineage. Which is why we have such a hard time with this, this is why the spark fizzles out eventually. Marriage was nothing like this cure-all we use nowadays to control promiscuity and desires. Humans are not meant to mate with one person for the rest of our lives. Women are by nature hypergamous and men's nature is to spread their genes, these qualities are not conducive to marriage as society and religion dictate.

Of course, there are people who are lucky enough to marry a person with who they stay with forever and are happy. My grandparents were married for 75 years when my grandfather died. Everybody thought this was such a great thing, wow look how long they lasted. When I saw their relationship I saw boredom and routine. Day in and day out. Not the way I want to live my life.

Back in early civilization, people only lived to be about 40 years old. Then there were wars which shortened the life again. Women died in child birth at a much higher rate than they do now, infant mortality was much higher as well, just look at the Middle Ages. So "till death do you part" was actually practical back then. Nowadays not so much. The wedding vows as we know them are outdated, the institution itself needs to be modernized to accommodate longer lives.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> Marriage is an institution which is not a natural state for humans. Humans used this institution to control property and family lineage. Which is why we have such a hard time with this, this is why the spark fizzles out eventually. Marriage was nothing like this cure-all we use nowadays to control promiscuity and desires. Humans are not meant to mate with one person for the rest of our lives. Women are by nature hypergamous and men's nature is to spread their genes, these qualities are not conducive to marriage as society and religion dictate.
> 
> Of course, there are people who are lucky enough to marry a person with who they stay with forever and are happy. My grandparents were married for 75 years when my grandfather died. Everybody thought this was such a great thing, wow look how long they lasted. When I saw their relationship I saw boredom and routine. Day in and day out. Not the way I want to live my life.
> 
> Back in early civilization, people only lived to be about 40 years old. Then there were wars which shortened the life again. Women died in child birth at a much higher rate than they do now, infant mortality was much higher as well, just look at the Middle Ages. So "till death do you part" was actually practical back then. Nowadays not so much. The wedding vows as we know them are outdated, the institution itself needs to be modernized to accommodate longer lives.


We depend upon a lot of things that are not "natural".

Laws for example. Without laws society would not exist.

What about the sciences. Through discipline man has decided it was best to preserve and improve upon knowledges.

Marriage. I can't really say anything but it is under attack. People do gain strong feelings and want to be closest to one they have an affinity to. But people are going to cheat. All I can say is that marriage is under attack.

Many of us would've paired off with one person without being coached or told that's what we should do, because we are not operating solely off of feelings of "fun".

Dunno.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Safety and security are by nature boring. It goes with the territory. It's the lack of safety and security, as described and commented on in previous pages of this very thread, which are touted as the most interesting and most likely to keep a spouse committed to the marriage. It bears out in the many threads here on infidelity. That's the easiest way to spice up a marriage. 

When it comes down to it, we want both security/safety and danger. If you live as early humans did, you will find what you desire. 

I think it's best not to get married, if you have to change it's entire meaning to be happy.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

For a caveman like myself, we want her to be ours. And we don't want no one to be with her. For a woman who loves and desires us, the feelings grow stronger over time and through conjugations, so if at first we didn't want someone else to have her, over time, we REALLY don't want someone else to have her and want to take care of her. For the right woman, she is going to care about you a lot and also desire to take care of and do right by her man.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

trey,

Thank you. My above post was not a comment on yours. It was a sort of extrapolation from what another member posted. 

I tend to believe what you just posted above. There is a price for everything. Safety and security require sacrifice and appreciation from both partners. It's less likely to be found in situations where we live for ourselves. Although, it is more exciting to live that way, it's also more stressful.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Safety and security are by nature boring. It goes with the territory. It's the lack of safety and security, as described and commented on in previous pages of this very thread, which are touted as the most interesting and most likely to keep a spouse committed to the marriage. It bears out in the many threads here on infidelity. That's the easiest way to spice up a marriage.
> 
> When it comes down to it, we want both security/safety and danger. If you live as early humans did, you will find what you desire.
> 
> I think it's best not to get married, if you have to change it's entire meaning to be happy.


There are other ways to keep excitement in marriage, you can have camping trips, trips around the world, skydiving etc. just to break monotony of the day to day. We get caught up in the routine until one spouse loses interest. Then the other is wondering, what happened?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

techmom said:


> There are other ways to keep excitement in marriage, you can have camping trips, trips around the world, skydiving etc. just to break monotony of the day to day. We get caught up in the routine until one spouse loses interest. Then the other is wondering, what happened?



Skydiving would be the most dangerous if you fold your own chute without instructions. 

Or, camping in brown bear country with a fresh kill pillow and a pen knife in a canvas tent.  Now that's dangerous. 

If you can't afford the trips and all that, you can dress as a drug dealer or prostitute and hang out in the seedy places around town. 

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I saw an opportunity for humor there.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

^ lol.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

techmom said:


> We get caught up in the routine until one spouse loses interest. Then the other is wondering, what happened?


If you are not happy and are losing interest, it would be good if you spilt the beans before it all goes tits up... after that, it's too late. No camping trip is going to fix it...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt said:


> I agree that the causes of LD can be vastly different, but that the one thing they all have in common is the loss of sexual desire from a wife for her husband.
> 
> Often it has to do with loss of respect, and sometimes it's easy to pinpoint why when there is horribly bad behavior from a husband, but usually it's murky.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great post, but it's also somewhat confusing to me.

What I'm reading (from this post and its subsequent replies) is that there is a fine line separating doing your own thing and doing things for your spouse, and that it's up to us to figure out exactly where that line lies. This line constantly moves, and is also very dependent on the person you are with.

I have to figure out when I can say "no, you do it, I'm going out", and risk pushing my wife away, and when it's okay to say that and generate a more positive response from her. It's a game that is not tilted in my favor at all. One day, it will anger her and make her feel as though she is not important. Another day, she will (secretly) be happy that I am exercising my right to my independence.

Most of us men are taught that taking care of our wives and kids is paramount to a good marriage. Happy wife = happy life. Yes, this is a different era, where women don't need "taking care of", but it's a fairly even dynamic. We treat you as though you are the most important person in the world, and we are given the same back. Except that's no longer the case. Now women want this element of danger.

You want us to treat you like you're the only girl in the world, but when we do, you lose respect for us. So therefore we have to balance this out properly, according to your views on how much is too much, or not enough. That fine line again. WE have to figure out what that line is (because it's dependent on the person AND the situation AND it changes frequently). By the time we figure it out, it can be too late, and the damage is done.

It all comes down to the same cliché that has always been there, since the dawn of time, sexist or not - we men have to be some sort of mind readers in order to figure out what YOU want. Too much in one direction, and we're screwed. Too much in the other, and we're screwed.

I'll give you a great example, and one that is likely not all that uncommon:

When my ex wife and I first dated, I was strong, independent, had my own life, which I included her in, but also kept parts to myself. SHE was the one to demand more of my time. Over the first 7 years, I morphed into what she wanted me to be, and she was happy (as was I, to be honest). As it was my first "real" relationship, I thought this was what it was supposed to be about. We were each others reason for being. We still had lives outside of each other, but minimal, at best. Sex life was good to great, she initiated just as much as I did, we both WANTED to be together as much as possible, etc etc etc.

Then, almost over night, she no longer wanted this. By our late 20's -with me still happy - she decided she wanted me to go out more, make more friends, not be around all the time, and vice versa for her. Over night. At this point, there was still nobody else, I know that. That came later.

But she completely changed her mind on how she wanted the dynamic to be, and it was up to me to figure out where this new line was. I was epicly unsuccessful in this, and the damage was done.

I will maintain as long as I live that had I not treated her like a princess for those first several years, she would not have stayed with me. That's what she was looking for at that time, and she would not have settled for a more independent man. The problem was, when she decided that was no longer what she wanted in a partner, the damage was already done. It was too late for me to change. She eventually started over from scratch with somebody else who fit more what she wanted at that time.

Perhaps we were too young and inexperienced, and she didn't truly know what she wanted back then, but all the same. It was up to me to find this line, and it was inevitable that I cross it at some point or another.

We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. That's how I look at it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think this is a great post, but it's also somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> What I'm reading (from this post and its subsequent replies) is that there is a fine line separating doing your own thing and doing things for your spouse, and that it's up to us to figure out exactly where that line lies. This line constantly moves, and is also very dependent on the person you are with.
> 
> ...


I hear you, alex, and every time I write a post like that I cringe a little, knowing how it sounds to men. 

I think the thing to remember is that people really do change--they change as they grow older, they change as a relationship evolves and as their partner grows older, they change in response to life circumstances and experiences. 

All of these changes can affect what a woman wants and needs from her partner. Honest and timely communication about this would be best, but sadly, that commonly doesn't happen because sometimes (at least in my own personal experience, and I'm betting I'm not alone) either the woman isn't exactly sure what she wants and she only knows that what's she's got isn't right, OR she's afraid to tell her husband what she wants or why what is is currently doing is turning her off. Don't forget, we're battling social conditioning, too. It sometimes is the reason we don't do what we "should" do to best maintain intimacy with our husbands. 

So, like you say, the husband is left trying to guess how to best meet his wife's needs. He often defaults to trying to make her happy by doing whatever she says she wants done--most particularly when there is a stressor involved, such as new parenthood, a difficult job, struggles with children or extended family, etc. Husbands do want to be the knight in shining armor for their wives. 

And all that is well and good . . . until the husband isn't getting his needs met AND PUTS UP WITH IT WHILE CONTINUING HIS WHITE KNIGHT BEHAVIOR. 

According to many men who post here, wives don't seem to have a problem letting their husbands know *via their behavior* if they are unhappy (even if they can't/won't articulate it.) Men seem to be _constantly_ aware of their wives' moods. Why? Well, because its a predictor of how well their wife is going to meet their needs (or let's just cut to the chase here---men see it as a predictor of how much sex he's going to get.)

Why don't men let their actions show if they are happy or not? Why do they keep humping along hoping for the best as the weeks and months and years pile up until they do become a shell of the man their wife married? 

Like I said before, it doesn't happen overnight. I'm guessing a lot of men don't even realize the path they are on until it's too late and their wives are already building resentment because this hyper-vigilant doormat who mines her every facial expression and inflection and tone and word choice to decipher, "what does she MEAN? What does she WANT? What can I DO to make her want me?" _is not attractive to her anymore._

It's not anyone's fault. I really believe that most of the time women and men try equally hard with equally good intentions. But this process is such a gradual change that starts out with such innocuous-seeming behavior that, by the time you wake up and say "I can't do this anymore!" it's waaayyyy beyond an easy fix. 

But it seems to be human nature to want to place blame. And when you place blame, you are basically saying, "it's not my responsibility to fix this, it's hers (or his.)" BOTH parties have to be willing to take an honest look at the complicated patterns of behavior that brought their marriage to the point of collapse. 

That's why so much of the good (in my estimation) advice that is handed out here is geared to what the person who is seeking advice can do to clean up their side of the street. 

I feel it keenly when men--good men, good husbands--come here hurting. The hurt oozes out of their every word. Yes, I wish their wives would just start "getting it." But what motivation do they have, what motivation are their husband's giving them to try and figure it out? Instead, all I can do is suggest to husbands what behaviors of theirs might have contributed to the current undesirable dynamic and suggest ways that they can work on themselves in the hopes of changing that dynamic enough that it motivates their wife to want to change, too. 

There just is no silver bullet for this very common problem. I guess getting the word out to newly married men is the best bet, but they are usually too happy and in love to look down the road. Yeah, the problem is we all have this wonderful sense of optimism when we first get married. We put ourselves last for short term gain at the detriment of long term relationship health. That's love for you.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Why don't men let their actions show if they are happy or not? Why do they keep humping along hoping for the best as the weeks and months and years pile up until they do become a shell of the man their wife married?


Interesting question. I'd say social conditioning, fear of making things worse and religious belief in that order.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Interesting question. I'd say social conditioning, fear of making things worse and religious belief in that order.


It was really just a rhetorical question.  I think there are lots of understandable reasons. I'm not going to lay all this at any man's feet. I've talked to my husband and length about this, since he fell into the same pattern of subverting his happiness to various senses of duty and obligation and gentlemanliness. 

IMO, this commonly happens to the worthiest, most well-intentioned, integrity-driven, and loving of men. It's how they are taught to value the woman they love. It makes me sad how easy they lose a sense of their own value. It makes me sadder to see what can become of their lives. Nobody deserves that, least of all these men.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

alexm said:


> I think this is a great post, but it's also somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> What I'm reading (from this post and its subsequent replies) is that there is a fine line separating doing your own thing and doing things for your spouse, and that it's up to us to figure out exactly where that line lies. This line constantly moves, and is also very dependent on the person you are with.
> 
> I have to figure out when I can say "no, you do it, I'm going out", and risk pushing my wife away, and when it's okay to say that and generate a more positive response from her. It's a game that is not tilted in my favor at all. One day, it will anger her and make her feel as though she is not important. Another day, she will (secretly) be happy that I am exercising my right to my independence.


I would say that you need to know yourself better from the start, and stick to it. You shouldn't have to "figure out" when you can say no - you should know what is and isn't negotiable as far as _your _needs and wants is concerned, and then work from there instead of solely focusing on her needs and wants and then molding yourself to be what you think she wants.

As was stated, we are each independent people before marriage, and we are always those people at our core. If you are bending yourself into a pretzel to please someone, you're doing it wrong. 

There is always a YOU inside, and it should be inviolable regardless of being a partner to someone. 



> Most of us men are taught that taking care of our wives and kids is paramount to a good marriage. Happy wife = happy life. Yes, this is a different era, where women don't need "taking care of", but it's a fairly even dynamic. We treat you as though you are the most important person in the world, and we are given the same back. Except that's no longer the case. Now women want this element of danger.
> 
> You want us to treat you like you're the only girl in the world, but when we do, you lose respect for us. So therefore we have to balance this out properly, according to your views on how much is too much, or not enough. That fine line again. WE have to figure out what that line is (because it's dependent on the person AND the situation AND it changes frequently). By the time we figure it out, it can be too late, and the damage is done.


I don't see treating a woman (or man) as though they are the only woman (or man) in the world is what causes loss of respect. Treating yourself as though your needs and wants are subservient to someone else's needs and wants is where the loss of respect comes in. 

The YOU that is at your core should be speaking up in your brain when you feel you're doing too much or being taken advantage of. Wanting to please is good and helpful and generous; constantly pleasing someone at your own expense leads to loss of respect



> It all comes down to the same cliché that has always been there, since the dawn of time, sexist or not - we men have to be some sort of mind readers in order to figure out what YOU want. Too much in one direction, and we're screwed. Too much in the other, and we're screwed.


Actually, I think you need to know what YOU want and need instead of trying to read anyone else's mind. If you know that, then you communicate and work it out together rather than always trying to mind-read and give the other person what they want. 



> I'll give you a great example, and one that is likely not all that uncommon:
> 
> When my ex wife and I first dated, I was strong, independent, had my own life, which I included her in, but also kept parts to myself. SHE was the one to demand more of my time. Over the first 7 years, I morphed into what she wanted me to be, and she was happy (as was I, to be honest). As it was my first "real" relationship, I thought this was what it was supposed to be about. We were each others reason for being. We still had lives outside of each other, but minimal, at best. Sex life was good to great, she initiated just as much as I did, we both WANTED to be together as much as possible, etc etc etc.
> 
> ...


I'd guess you two were young when you married, you tried too hard to get her and keep her, and lost your self in the process. That left you out in the cold when she matured and her needs and wants changed because you had already given up your needs and wants for hers. 

If you hadn't treated her like a princess for years in the beginning, at your own expense, perhaps you wouldn't have been married. Perhaps that might have been the better choice. Or perhaps it was a lesson you needed to learn in order not to give up your self to someone else.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> It was really just a rhetorical question.  I think there are lots of understandable reasons. I'm not going to lay all this at any man's feet. I've talked to my husband and length about this, since he fell into the same pattern of subverting his happiness to various senses of duty and obligation and gentlemanliness.
> 
> IMO, this commonly happens to the worthiest, most well-intentioned, integrity-driven, and loving of men. It's how they are taught to value the woman they love. It makes me sad how easy they lose a sense of their own value. It makes me sadder to see what can become of their lives. Nobody deserves that, least of all these men.


These are the men who are targeted by these carnevores. Men who are loving, have integrity, will not expect anything from someone else they aren't willing to give, loyal and dedicated to his wife.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> It was really just a rhetorical question.  I think there are lots of understandable reasons. I'm not going to lay all this at any man's feet. I've talked to my husband and length about this, since he fell into the same pattern of subverting his happiness to various senses of duty and obligation and gentlemanliness.
> 
> IMO, this commonly happens to the worthiest, most well-intentioned, integrity-driven, and loving of men. It's how they are taught to value the woman they love. It makes me sad how easy they lose a sense of their own value. It makes me sadder to see what can become of their lives. Nobody deserves that, least of all these men.


If their wives are taking advantage of them, then I lay considerable blame at the feet of their wives. Why do they choose to treat their men as though their needs are subservient? Why do they take advantage of their men? Why are they the takers instead of also being givers, like their husbands?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

treyvion said:


> These are the men who are targeted by these carnevores. Men who are loving, have integrity, will not expect anything from someone else they aren't willing to give, loyal and dedicated to his wife.





norajane said:


> If their wives are taking advantage of them, then I lay considerable blame at the feet of their wives. Why do they choose to treat their men as though their needs are subservient? Why do they take advantage of their men? Why are they the takers instead of also being givers, like their husbands?


Well, there are people out there with bad intentions, both male and female, but I find those situations less challenging to understand because the cause of the failure is simple. (Now proving that was the cause of the failure? A little more challenging. And very subjective.)

In my comments, I was talking about a typical marriage that starts off with good intentions from both parties. Due to a set of complex circumstances related (but not limited to) gender differences (biological and societal) that get played out over years as the couple travels though the changing circumstances of life, the marriage ends ups in a place from which neither can dig out without the help of the other. 

In this scenario, wasting time trying to locate blame and get the other party to take primary responsibility is were many couples wind up spinning their wheels.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

treyvion said:


> These are the men who are targeted by these carnevores. Men who are loving, have integrity, will not expect anything from someone else they aren't willing to give, loyal and dedicated to his wife.


I still find it all crazy, especially to have it written out as well as Gettingit's post. It makes sense, it just doesn't make SENSE.

The part that stood out to me the most (and made my jaw drop a bit) was the introduction of the element of danger and uncertainty, which in turn gives the (usually) woman the impetus to essentially mate guard. Without this danger, or rather WITH the safety that comes with a loving and caring partner (usually husband), there is no need to mate guard, thus attraction dwindles.

I mean, it makes sense. But man, is that ever backwards to me. Am I the only one?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I have never felt targeted by my wife. Yet our dysfunctional behaviors darn near did me in, or so I felt on a daily basis.



I think what got me into the patterns that I stayed lost in for so many years was the many years of loneliness before meeting her, that she was inherently desirable, and beautiful in so many ways. Yet, she had her own challenges -- anxiety, insecurities, foo issues, and repressed grieving to do. I had my own challenges too.



I thought we were a great match, and I thought much of the drama err, the difficulty I had trying to endure her drama -- stemmed from my stunted emotional growth; thinking, see, a strong man would not be bothered by this or that, and all I needed to do was just suck it up. If I could just be her rock when she needed it, we could learn and grow together and the stressful times would fade and be outweighed by the good.



It is late, so I will jump to the punch line...



Looking back, I think the choices I made that shrunk my self, and made me lose attractiveness in her eyes were the choices driven by fear and/or quelling her anxieties. Motivation by fear vs. motivation by value.


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