# Destructive Fitness Tests?



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Feel like I learn something valuable here quite often.

Ex has been on my mind lately. Not pining or wallowing. I miss my kids. I miss being a family. I undoubtedly miss the memory of what I hoped my marriage and family would become.

Have been doing a lot of re-reading on the forums. Somewhere between Conrad's thread on fitness testing, and Trenton's thread on vulnerability, I started thinking about something that I just couldn't shake.

Advice, steps to take, guidelines to follow are often given here with the presumption that you have two relatively mentally healthy people. What has become clear to me in perusing the threads, and my own experience, is how sadly uncommon that is.

I used to tell my wife she was beautiful. But I don't think she believed she was beautiful.

I would look at my kids, look at her, smile, and say. "God, I love you." And she would kind of lilt her head and look contemplative for a split second, before saying "I love you too." I used to think she was being thoughtful in that moment in a good way. But in thinking about the trajectory of our marriage overall, now I think it more likely that in that moment she was thinking. "How can that be true? What's to love?"

'Shame' was the issue that she built huge walls around. I don't think she felt worthy of love. 

Our relationship was at it's strongest both emotionally and physically when it was not stable. She was completely dialed in when I was a 'goal'. Once I became an 'accomplishment', pledged my love, devotion and desire to spend my life and raise kids with this woman - things definitely shifted.

It wasn't like the spigot of sex and affection was turned off. But looking over the near decade of our marriage, what I believe is that she began fitness testing, withholding affection and sex, to validate her own inner belief that I couldn't possibly love her the way I said I did. How could I see and feel all of these wonderful things about her, that she didn't see or feel? I must have been full of sh!t. So she in turn went about trying to prove it.

Same pattern in her current relationship. Although now, I believe she recognizes the pattern.

This notion took hold when we had a conversation about 10 days ago. TOM bends over backwards for her. No question in her mind, or mine for that matter, he loves her. I have posted previously that she now tests him all the time. Some of them seem to have no other purpose than to actually see if she can drive him away.

When she shared the following, is when this concept really hit me. She is no where near as available to him as he would like. She is generally at home with the kids; again, one of those kids is on the autism spectrum. He comes over and fills the role that I used to ... he helps. He cooks, he cleans, he gets things done that she would struggle with alone.

She asked him: "What's in this for you?"

So overall, I've been thinking about the notion of fitness tests as a means to reinforce a NEGATIVE self-perception. 'I'm not worthy of your love. Watch, I'll prove it to you.'


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Wow, Deejo. That is sad. But unfortunately I can't help agree with you that some folk never achieve mental health or even maturity. That can ring a death knell for any relationship. 

And I can even remember doing exactly what you are talking about before I got dope slapped into some sense.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Wow, Deejo. That is sad. But unfortunately I can't help agree with you that some folk never achieve mental health or even maturity. That can ring a death knell for any relationship.
> 
> And I can even remember doing exactly what you are talking about before I got dope slapped into some sense.


It is sad. I think what makes me sad is that she is aware of it and trying to change it. I don't think there is anything me, or anyone else could have said or done to get her to come to that realization. Enough 'sh!t' had to occur that she got there herself.

I'm happy for her - yet also sad, and pissed off.

Thanks for validating my belief that I'm not alone in this thinking. Was that the watershed moment in your marriage that you have referred to previously?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Thanks for validating my belief that I'm not alone in this thinking. Was that the watershed moment in your marriage that you have referred to previously?


My husband and I had a BUNCH of problems early in our marriage. All textbook, thus among them. I was constantly wanting out. But my value system said No you don't just give up. Not to mention my family would have kicked my butt. DH would not go to counseling. There was a usenet group similar to this one, though un-moderated. There were a number of tenacious people who

- weren't afraid to tell me what I did not want to hear, even sometimes with some harsh words, including this. It took some significant cage rattling to get me to stop and think... Am I REALLY the awful person that they say I am?

- had skill information to share in terms of getting out of right fights and fighting to solve.

- had skill and experience with effective limit setting.

- had information to share about recognizing love languages.

But until step 1 was successful, the following steps were falling on deaf ears.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,
I am sure there is truth to that. I also think the "ultimate" truth is in the results. Consistently failing fitness tests harms/kills the M. Consistently passing them strengthens it. For the M to survive at least one person needs to be strong, stable and secure. 

The crazier my W gets - which is rare - typically the calmer and firmer I get. As for why she does what she does - not totally sure. And I am ok with that. Right now we are in a fantastic place. Sometimes we are only in an "ok" place. When she (and this is rare thank God) gets in a really dark part of her head - it is my job to pull her out of it. Often when she goes to the "bad place" she needs to hear that I really am ok with it if she wants to leave. That seems to bring her "back" very fast and very strong. I think of it as a "light 180". 

I do believe people tend to be incredibly consistent. In her case - the alignment of her physical behavior/response pattern and her emotional behavior/response pattern is almost frightening. 

Physically: She likes to provoke conflict. During that conflict she often draws blood (no big deal - scratches heal) and yet the ideal outcome "for her" is that after an intense struggle, I overpower her and spank her. But that only happens if it happens. She never "lets" me win. And sometimes I don't since our "rules" of engagement offset my size/strength advantage. I also think somehow she likes the fact that I don't show pain. 

Emotional fitness testing: It really is the same. She provokes conflict, tries to draw blood, is not so happy if she "prevails". Is very happy if I ignore the "blood" and "overpower" her. And the more skilled I am in that "overpower" - humor, firmness, body language, playful aggression - the happier she is. 

In both cases, physical and emotional - after the fact - she is aroused. 



Deejo said:


> Feel like I learn something valuable here quite often.
> 
> Ex has been on my mind lately. Not pining or wallowing. I miss my kids. I miss being a family. I undoubtedly miss the memory of what I hoped my marriage and family would become.
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> I am sure there is truth to that. I also think the "ultimate" truth is in the results. Consistently failing fitness tests harms/kills the M. Consistently passing them strengthens it. For the M to survive at least one person needs to be strong, stable and secure.
> 
> The crazier my W gets - which is rare - typically the calmer and firmer I get. As for why she does what she does - not totally sure. And I am ok with that. Right now we are in a fantastic place. Sometimes we are only in an "ok" place. When she (and this is rare thank God) gets in a really dark part of her head - it is my job to pull her out of it. Often when she goes to the "bad place" she needs to hear that I really am ok with it if she wants to leave. That seems to bring her "back" very fast and very strong. I think of it as a "light 180".
> ...


I get what you're saying MEM, and I feel like I have my head around the way the dynamic is supposed to work - and there isn't much arguing the fact that if you don't handle them correctly, the marriage dies.

Don't know how to convey this without it sounding like a 'poor me', or a deflection of my own contribution, that really isn't where I'm coming from.

But in watching and being aware of what my ex does now - and particularly what occurred in our marriage. I can't help wondering if the entire enterprise was a Kobiyashi Maru scenario, a no-win situation - unless and until SHE became aware that she was consciously or subconsciously trying to sabotage the relationship.

The only way I suppose I could have 'won' was to never have let her truly feel secure about the relationship. That dynamic would likely have bred a different kind of volatility. Or perhaps, had I known then, what I know now, I would have been better able to navigate those waters.

She told me about the "What's in it for you?" line in the context of a blow-out she had with TOM. Keep in mind, I'm very aware of the bizarre nature that my ex talks to me about what is going on with her boyfriend. These discussions almost always start off surrounding the kids - then segue into personal stuff. I don't shirk it. We both still feel a connection with each other, but neither is going to question or push what exactly the nature of that connection is. 

She stated; "The call ended with him hanging up on me. I expected him to call back within ten minutes. He didn't. We didn't talk for 3 days. Best thing he could have done."

I just smirked. I'm fine with acknowledging the not calling back as a spine test - but overall? The whole of that dynamic and exchange is f*cked up.

Let's face it, if someone wants to make it their goal to behave in a way that you will ultimately reject them - that isn't terribly hard to pull off.

She was never going to be the one to look me in the eye and say; "I don't want you anymore. I'm leaving."

She was going to be the one to get ME to say it. And she did.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

So even if you would have responded PERFECTLY to every test, her low self-worth would have just manifested itself in some other way and you'd still be here...???


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> There were a number of tenacious people who
> - weren't afraid to tell me what I did not want to hear...to get me to stop and think... Am I REALLY the awful person that they say I am?



You mean you used to be even *WORSE*?


(sorry, couldn't help it...)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,
I might have asked you this before - sorry if I am having a senior moment. If you met a "clone" of your W today. Basically the same person she is but with zero history between you. Do you think you could establish precedent from the start and use that to maintain a "fair" balance in the relationship?

Where you got with your W - at the bottom - sounded awful. I cannot imagine the guy you are today ever again allowing a situation where your partner is freezing you out sexually, spending beyond your means, refusing to work in proportion to their spending and putting ALL of it at your doorstep. 






Deejo said:


> I get what you're saying MEM, and I feel like I have my head around the way the dynamic is supposed to work - and there isn't much arguing the fact that if you don't handle them correctly, the marriage dies.
> 
> Don't know how to convey this without it sounding like a 'poor me', or a deflection of my own contribution, that really isn't where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nice777guy said:


> So even if you would have responded PERFECTLY to every test, her low self-worth would have just manifested itself in some other way and you'd still be here...???


I suppose that's the million dollar question. She had a lot of 'shame' issues particularly surrounding sex. Again, by her own admission, not my manufacture.

I guess I see it as a negative feedback loop. She developed physical issues with sex, as I've outlined previously. She had the shame issues. She would outright tell me, "I don't know why I feel like I have to talk myself into, or give myself permission to have sex with my husband." If we did have intercourse ... she got an infection just about every damn time for nearly 2 years. 

So given all that, she developed the complete aversion. Sex equals pain and feeling like crap - despite the fact that in the moment it feels good. The feel good didn't carry over.

Once pain, uncertainty, and bad feelings became associated with sex - I really don't know what I could have done differently to help her associate sex with passion, joy, bonding and love. That is certainly how I perceived it - but honestly? I have no idea how she perceives sex.

So part of my thought has been, by expressing to her how important sex was to me, what it meant, that by 'giving in' she didn't feel good about it. But by the same token, by avoiding it, she didn't feel good about it. Because at some level she felt she should feel good about it and want to do it.

No win situation. Does that make sense or sound like crazy-talk?

As for my current love-life, all is well, and when I thought about it - I distinctly have NOT tried to contribute to a sense of stability or future with my partner. I stay in the moment. The phone call. The date. She appears to be happy with that as well. We just passed day 100. Have to confess, if she started pressuring about a 'direction', my response would be to back way off. No sh!t tests that I am aware of just yet.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> I might have asked you this before - sorry if I am having a senior moment. If you met a "clone" of your W today. Basically the same person she is but with zero history between you. Do you think you could establish precedent from the start and use that to maintain a "fair" balance in the relationship?


The answer is, yes. I think that fact probably best sums up my consternation. She and I actually acknowledged as much.


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## danavince (Nov 19, 2009)

I'd like to recommend the book to you, Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson. 

Obviously your wife's insecurities were damaging to the marriage and kept you at a distance. All couples test one another to some extent. Relationships create a vulnerability that we don't experience anywhere else so there needs to be a deep level of emotional safety for there to be deeper intimacy and connection.

If a person doesn't have emotionally safe surroundings growing up, it can be very difficult to establish this in marriage. People tend to stay in a protective mode to avoid being hurt. 

You are right that unless your wife could acknowledge her own pain and fear, she would sabotage the relationship because she was too afraid to allow herself to be vulnerable.

However, with awareness, two people can work on creating a safe space for healing to occur and trust to build. Relationships provide a very unique atmosphere for personal growth and maturity if you are willing to confront your own issues. 

I would recommend that book simply for your own learning so you can have a better grasp of what and how things happened in your marriage.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Framing the piece on 'Vulnerability' that Trenton posted, the ex is generally good at making a connection, but not very good at fostering them. She has pitiful few 'close' friends, but many, many, people that she easily interacts with.

This feels more like detective work to me, rather than heartbreak. 

Have been thinking about dynamic behind sabotaging behavior.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

danavince said:


> I'd like to recommend the book to you, Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson.


Thanks very much for the recommendation. I'll pick it up.




> If a person doesn't have emotionally safe surroundings growing up, it can be very difficult to establish this in marriage. People tend to stay in a protective mode to avoid being hurt.
> 
> You are right that unless your wife could acknowledge her own pain and fear, she would sabotage the relationship because she was too afraid to allow herself to be vulnerable.


She was adopted, and grew up with severely emotionally impaired parents. Having interacted with them over many years I would often say to her, "It's a wonder that you turned out as normal as you did." We did a good amount of MC; our therapist was horrified by some of the stories.



> However, with awareness, two people can work on creating a safe space for healing to occur and trust to build. Relationships provide a very unique atmosphere for personal growth and maturity if you are willing to confront your own issues.


Which is from where my frustration springs. She will likely do that work and take those steps with someone else. 



> I would recommend that book simply for your own learning so you can have a better grasp of what and how things happened in your marriage.


Sounds like a logical step in my detective work. Thanks, again.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I read through this post and had a huge lightbulb moment. Thank you so much for this Deejo. It seems I have a lot in common with your ex-wife with the only difference being I am hyper sexual in search for connection rather than distant. Being here has led me to believe that maybe I picked up on this need and has made me question...Is that why he loves me? Am I terrified if I stopped being hyper sexual the love he does have for me would vanish? Would he dessert me? Is all my value to men added to equal only sexual value?

When my husband continually says he loves me I have that same brief pause followed by I love you too and it is because of the reason you presume. I can't help but think...why? Then I think...oh yeah, sex. Still, I am all out terrified if anything should happen to this then we would be left with something not worth saving.

Sorry, I sort of turned this into a thread about me but your words really, really had an impact and I wanted to share it.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I wanted to add, a thank you to Danavince as well. I'm going to pick up that book.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Deejo, you gave me some good advice once (which I can't quite remember specifically), but it involved simplicity and addressing reality. 

So if I may: Allowing your mind to venture into trying to understanding your ex-wife, is not good for you. Your ex-wife telling you about her love life with the OM (does that mean the other man she cheated with?) is not good for you.

You have a new lady. Your ex is your ex. Understanding her will not necessarily give you insight into other women. 

This seems more like a way to not feel too much for the new woman, than it does legitimate insight into the old woman.

KWIM?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

seeking sanity said:


> Deejo, you gave me some good advice once (which I can't quite remember specifically), but it involved simplicity and addressing reality.
> 
> So if I may: Allowing your mind to venture into trying to understanding your ex-wife, is not good for you. Your ex-wife telling you about her love life with the OM (does that mean the other man she cheated with?) is not good for you.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your insight SS. And yes, I do know what you mean. Maybe it's the part of me that really, really, just can't get comfortable with having 'failed'. 

I've come to terms with it - but that doesn't mean that I like the terms.

I do not dwell on ex when I'm with the GF. No expectations. No labels. We have a great time together. Nobody is being strung along. I certainly feel like we are on the same page - but it isn't a 'deep' page. Not for either of us. Again, we're both ok with that.

Maybe the depth piece is why I'm doing the postmortem on the ex. And yes, the boyfriend is the same man she started the affair with shortly after I moved out in 08.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I read through this post and had a huge lightbulb moment. Thank you so much for this Deejo. It seems I have a lot in common with your ex-wife with the only difference being I am hyper sexual in search for connection rather than distant. Being here has led me to believe that maybe I picked up on this need and has made me question...Is that why he loves me? Am I terrified if I stopped being hyper sexual the love he does have for me would vanish? Would he dessert me? Is all my value to men added to equal only sexual value?
> 
> When my husband continually says he loves me I have that same brief pause followed by I love you too and it is because of the reason you presume. I can't help but think...why? Then I think...oh yeah, sex. Still, I am all out terrified if anything should happen to this then we would be left with something not worth saving.
> 
> Sorry, I sort of turned this into a thread about me but your words really, really had an impact and I wanted to share it.


That's not a hi-jack. That's a contribution. You got me thinking. Glad I could return the favor. And trust me ... he really does love you.

So do you agree, or does this concept of destructive or self-sabotaging fitness tests make sense in your eyes?


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> I do not dwell on ex when I'm with the GF. No expectations. No labels. We have a great time together. Nobody is being strung along. I certainly feel like we are on the same page - but it isn't a 'deep' page. Not for either of us. Again, we're both ok with that.


When I was separated and dating, I felt similar. In the moment I was good, but on my own prone to reviewing why the marriage had failed. I just found it was an unending conversation with myself and I had to deliberately let it go. You're a few years out now, so I think it's one of those "it never really goes away" kind of things. 

I just quit smoking and am feeling the pangs. I know I will always be an addict to cigarettes, and for the rest of my life will have to battle through occasional temptations.

It's just life, man. Regrets and lost loves are part of it.



> And yes, the boyfriend is the same man she started the affair with shortly after I moved out in 08.


For me the litmus test is did OM have influence on the decision to separate, or show up AFTER the separation. If he influenced it or was in the picture in any way, he's a lifelong enemy, and any conversation about him would be strictly off limits for me. If he came after, he's just a rebound that has stuck around, and someone to be pitied.

Anyway, you're doing great. These moments of reflection come and go. Try not to let her bait you into getting involved in her world too much. 

And while MEM is awesome and has amazing advice, his situation is so very different from yours. Ways you could or could not have acted, are just crazy making at this point.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SS,
Thanks for the kind words - and I want to add I agree my situation is different.

Deejo,
I would have done no better in your shoes. If my W had had the same combo of physical/sexual/behavioral issues early in our marriage it would have killed us. There is NO WAY I could have dealt with that mix at 27/37. Today just shy of 48 I think I would likely be ok. But I have had 21 years of gradual training. 

I sincerely apologize if anything I ever wrote implied that I think I could have handled what you handled. No way. Too many very difficult, interlocking and complex issues at too young an age. 




seeking sanity said:


> When I was separated and dating, I felt similar. In the moment I was good, but on my own prone to reviewing why the marriage had failed. I just found it was an unending conversation with myself and I had to deliberately let it go. You're a few years out now, so I think it's one of those "it never really goes away" kind of things.
> 
> I just quit smoking and am feeling the pangs. I know I will always be an addict to cigarettes, and for the rest of my life will have to battle through occasional temptations.
> 
> ...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> That's not a hi-jack. That's a contribution. You got me thinking. Glad I could return the favor. And trust me ... he really does love you.
> 
> So do you agree, or does this concept of destructive or self-sabotaging fitness tests make sense in your eyes?


I think it absolutely fills in the blank of what I didn't understand about fitness testing because I do initiate them all the time and they do keep our relationship fresh and high tension but at what cost and why am I doing them? I think knowing why, and I think you just figured it out for me by mistake, will help me.

I am at an age and time in my life where I want to and can focus on the relationship I'm in with my husband and we're thankfully both still dedicated to positive change and accept it has to happen for both of our happiness. We just don't know how to begin or how we ever let it get to this to begin with.

Perhaps if it's a positive fitness test it's different and since that's not what's going on in my relationship I was getting frustrated with the wording and confused with the idea that they were normal and good.

Basically, what good is him proving his mettle if I'll never believe it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

seeking sanity said:


> For me the litmus test is did OM have influence on the decision to separate, or show up AFTER the separation. If he influenced it or was in the picture in any way, he's a lifelong enemy, and any conversation about him would be strictly off limits for me. If he came after, he's just a rebound that has stuck around, and someone to be pitied.


It's the latter case. They won't make it, and if they do ... it'll be a train-wreck. There was a point in time when I was very, very angry at the both of them. Like most things, that time has passed. My remaining angry would have no impact on them, but it would have an impact on me. He and I won't be bowling together any time soon, but any brief interactions we have are civil. If anything, I believe the circumstances are reversed. He hates that ex and I still have the rapport that we do. 



MEM11363 said:


> SS,
> I sincerely apologize if anything I ever wrote implied that I think I could have handled what you handled. No way. Too many very difficult, interlocking and complex issues at too young an age.


Your apology is appreciated, but most unnecessary. I didn't infer anything from your input - I've been ruminating about this all by myself.  I think you have a pretty good idea of how I feel about your input. Goes back to what I said some time ago in the 'Apples' thread. Having the perspective and skill set back then, that I have now - quite possibly may have meant that I wouldn't have chosen her as a partner. Given that it's all in the rear-view mirror, having had numerous very, very good memories, and two children that I adore ... I can't imagine having NOT chosen her.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> Basically, what good is him proving his mettle if I'll never believe it.


I believe you're right ... you and my ex do have quite a bit in common.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

It is important for us to love and respect ourselves first. If we don't even love or respect ourselves, how can people love or respect us? If we don't love or respect ourselves, we also don't believe that we deserve love or respect from others. 

Here this love doesn't mean selfish love, it means confidence.

When my husband tells me: I love you! I usually just have a big smile and ask him" Why?!" Then he says: You are a wonderful woman. Sometimes I let him go with this, sometimes I want him to continue: You are a wonderful woman, you are a wonderful wife, you complete my life, you make me happy.............................a few minutes of my good qualities, love to hear this from my husband. 

I had told my husband everything about my past. He doesn't mind, he doesn't feel that I was dirty, he doesn't care how many men I had before him. He feels the pain I had, he knows that my happiness didn't come easily. He knows HE is making me a very happy woman. He just told me, your past has made the wonderful woman you are now! It is just great to hear things like this from the man I love!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

^I'm making progress in this, at least I'm more able to say ILU from time to time, but whenever she wants to hear more I still tend to go "don't push it" with a smile heh, which she finds rather cute.

Oh well, one step at a time...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

A man who didn't used to say" I love you" says " I love you" now is already a big jump!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Turnera used and described this phrase well over a year ago. I had forgotten it. I came across it in my re-reading. 

Toxic Shame

Introduced the ex to the concept during one of our brief reconciliation attempts. 

I think my referring to this stuff as negative fitness testing is way off base. It does the depth and degree of issues a disservice.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I read the page you pointed to. Very interesting, logical evaluation on shame. Psychological evaluation is much like generalizations in that it doesn't make much room for complexity or circumstances. Basically, it assumes a lot and I think it can be self limiting/society limiting.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I read the page you pointed to. Very interesting, logical evaluation on shame. Psychological evaluation is much like generalizations in that it doesn't make much room for complexity or circumstances. Basically, it assumes a lot and I think it can be self limiting/society limiting.


We gotta start somewhere


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I spoke to my husband about this. Actually, he brought it up this morning. This might be a little long but I felt a need to get it out there and thought this was the best thread to puke it out in. haha

We went to dinner last night. It was nice as usual. We came home and argued because I asked him to take care of our youngest to give me break and then got on him because his way of putting him to sleep resulted in my son crying for me within minutes. I know this isn't my husband's fault because I'm the one who always tucks them in and my son was just frustrated that I wasn't doing it but I needed a break and couldn't help but feel...well, I guess, overwhelmed. I think he felt like a failure though because he couldn't offer me that. It's obviously more involved then this but this sums it up.

I'm in a bad spot emotionally, I think that has a lot to do with why I'm here so much. I'm exhausted and in a turning point in my life where I am hoping to go back to work, ending the organization I worked on for five years among other things. I feel sort of lost and unfulfilled. I know it's my fault but I can't seem to shake it. Instead I keep expecting my husband to somehow magically fix it all. It's not fair and it wouldn't work but here I am expecting it anyway.

So this morning we were lying in bed and talking and I'm telling him all this to sort of apologize. Then I grab onto him in a sexual way and he actually said to me something along the lines of, "Maybe we should stop having sex for a while. It's all you think I want from you."

I thought for a moment...is he freaking reading TAM? Why else would he know to say something like this or even think it? Am I just being a dork. I should have just asked him and will but I was taken off guard. I guess if he is it's because he cares enough to but I wish he would have started the conversation by telling me he read it.

So, I was honest with him when he said this and told him that I did think that was true. He said it wasn't. It was ridiculous, he'd have no problem stopping sexual intimacy to build it elsewhere between us. Sheesh. Really?

OK. So I'm thinking, wow. It's all on me. It's all my problem. I'm the one who is unsatisfied with everything and wanting to blame him for something and he's never doing anything wrong. He's never to blame which really sucks for me.

I'm not even sure I can stop having sex. I don't want to lose sexual intimacy. I wouldn't know how to relate to him or give him pleasure or feel that I could somehow balance out all the turmoil in our lives currently. Just being with me is pleasure? Come on now, I'm a really, really difficult person having a really, really hard time right now.

I think I'm seriously going to look into counseling for myself. I've got to get out of where I'm at emotionally now and it's becoming clearer and clearer that I don't know how to.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

> I think I'm seriously going to look into counseling for myself. I've got to get out of where I'm at emotionally now and it's becoming clearer and clearer that I don't know how to.


This most definitely!!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Deejo,

Interesting thread. I do agree with your preposition which you started with. I like, you, find myself from time to time ruminating and analyzing what went wrong. I, like you, now see my ex's way of destroying a relationship by creating the no-win fitness tests. And I realize now that after a while at some subconscious level I just gave up, after I would pass a test, and the result wasn't strengthening but almost a weakening of the relationship. In the end I just don't think I cared.

Like you I'm not excusing any of my own issues, but like you after learning about these things and slowly buildling up an understanding of using them day-to-day I too wonder if presented with a clone of my ex w, would I even be with her. Most likely not, I would have just ended it.

Unfortunately for my ex, she hasn't realized this about herself yet and has fallen into her normal pattern with another man. No this isn't either TOM#! or TOM#2, but another guy whom she was engaged to prior to our divorce (we have to wait a year of physical seperation before being able to divorce). Heck she even admitted to a mutual friend that when this guy asked her, she just couldn't say no. What a statement. The guy is doomed and doesn't even know it.

Trenton:

At least you are realizing this about yourself, that is always the hardest part. Cause i could tell my ex about her ways and she would say I'm crazy, I imagine. But you are now self aware of it. I imagine it will take time and effort to change, but I imagine after the the change your life view will become so much happier all around.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Appreciate the feedback FA.

I know there were a number of similarities in our circumstances. Don't get me wrong, despite my introspection, things are good, I'm good. All of the changes I have made are for the better. A better, Me. Wouldn't have happened had I remained married.

Sometimes it's simply difficult looking at your ex-partner, and remembering the person you fell in love with, and how painfully little that person seems to have in common with the one you divorce. Just kind of sad.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I spoke to my husband about this. Actually, he brought it up this morning. This might be a little long but I felt a need to get it out there and thought this was the best thread to puke it out in. haha
> 
> We went to dinner last night. It was nice as usual. We came home and argued because I asked him to take care of our youngest to give me break and then got on him because his way of putting him to sleep resulted in my son crying for me within minutes. I know this isn't my husband's fault because I'm the one who always tucks them in and my son was just frustrated that I wasn't doing it but I needed a break and couldn't help but feel...well, I guess, overwhelmed. I think he felt like a failure though because he couldn't offer me that. It's obviously more involved then this but this sums it up.
> 
> ...


Trenton,

When our husbands are not doing anything to make us unhappy, but we are unhappy about our life, we do have to examine ourselves and see if there is anything we can do to improve our life. 

At the beginning of our marriage, Boker never did anything wrong to make me upset, but I was unfulfilled, I was complaining a lot about my work, my co-workers, my family, and people who I associated with. They were not right here, they were not right there, they hurt me here, they hurt me there, I was in a grouchy mood often. Life was very good, but I was not happy! 

Then I realized I couldn't keep on living like that anymore, I told myself to look for ways to help myself. My husband wouldn't suggest me going to a psychiatrist, he didn't think I had depression, but he knew I had to work on my personality. That's when I started to bury myself into the Bible, trying to understand myself and human life. 

Witnesses have a lot of articles about human life, they really help us understand us and people around us. I have to thank them for helping me in this area, then after the Bible, I started reading Buddhism wisdom, it helped me get to a higher level!. Now I am happy at work, I get along well with my co-workers, I am happy with my family, I become a woman who has a big smile when I see people. On TAM for so long, you get to feel what kind of emotion I have now, I feel I am peaceful and content. But just tell you the truth, I was a miserable woman two years ago! I would lie in bed for half a day just because somebody said something I didn't like; I was asking my boss for sick leave often. My environment didn't change, people around me didn't change, I changed! 

If you think you should seek professional help, please go. Those people can really read our mind and understand what we need. 

I just bought a book, called << Happy At Last>>, written by Richard O'Connor(a psychiatrist) , haven't started reading it, I like to read books like this and absorb information from those wise people!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I still don't really understand this concept of "fitness tests", I've read the threads but I'm still abit 'meh'. In the past it also took me a while to understand this "alpha" "beta" concept even.

Fitness tests... you mean like provoking conflict yes? I don't get it. If you mean like starting random minor fights for some nice making-up or for some random amusement then I do it all the time... haven't had an argument since near new years however, not even minor ones.

Been egging her on for reasons I don't understand (something wrong with me?), also last week she egged me on by deliberately taking ages to get herself ready after a friend invited us for dinner cooking my favorite dish (it was obvious). Are these fitness test? If it is, the missus and I are more normal that I thought!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton - sorry I'm a bit behind, but why are you ending an organization that you've worked with for 5 years? Are you saying it can be carried on without you, by others?

Just trying to understand...sounded kinda strange. I could see how that would be very emotional for most people.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

RandomDude said:


> I still don't really understand this concept of "fitness tests", I've read the threads but I'm still abit 'meh'. In the past it also took me a while to understand this "alpha" "beta" concept even.
> 
> Fitness tests... you mean like provoking conflict yes? I don't get it. If you mean like starting random minor fights for some nice making-up or for some random amusement then I do it all the time... haven't had an argument since near new years however, not even minor ones.
> 
> Been egging her on for reasons I don't understand (something wrong with me?), also last week she egged me on by deliberately taking ages to get herself ready after a friend invited us for dinner cooking my favorite dish (it was obvious). Are these fitness test? If it is, the missus and I are more normal that I thought!


RD, this kind of fitness test I'm talking about is meant to sabotage the relationship. You tell your wife that you love her. Your wife has low self-esteem, therefore she doesn't feel worthy of love. So when you say the words, her presumption is that you are either a liar or you're pathetic ... so she goes about trying to make you reject her.

That's what I'm talking about in this thread.

Under normal circumstances, I actually prefer the other term for this stuff, sh!t testing.

It is a means by which they test your sense of confidence, control, and self-esteem. You're wife deliberately taking forever to get dressed to go someplace she knows you want to go is a sh!t test.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I spoke to my husband about this. Actually, he brought it up this morning. This might be a little long but I felt a need to get it out there and thought this was the best thread to puke it out in. haha
> 
> We went to dinner last night. It was nice as usual. We came home and argued because I asked him to take care of our youngest to give me break and then got on him because his way of putting him to sleep resulted in my son crying for me within minutes. I know this isn't my husband's fault because I'm the one who always tucks them in and my son was just frustrated that I wasn't doing it but I needed a break and couldn't help but feel...well, I guess, overwhelmed. I think he felt like a failure though because he couldn't offer me that. It's obviously more involved then this but this sums it up.
> 
> ...


Personally, I think it is absolutely HUGE that you are invested in exploring the issue in the first place. What my ex did was build walls around this stuff to seal it off, hide it away, and never have to look at it or deal with it.

To her credit, she is trying to change that now. To our misfortune, it's about 3 years too late.

I have no doubt that you possess a very fine husband, who is invested in, and loves you deeply. That is worth challenging yourself and taking some uncomfortable steps to preserve.

I admire your courage, even if you don't see it as courage. Congratulations, you have found another layer of your very own vulnerability.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

GP, very true.

Random Dude, a fitness test is a woman putting her husband in a difficult situation and expecting him to overcome it in a way that proves he is worthy of her love. A destructive fitness test would be done for the same reason except no matter what the man does, the woman will not believe she is worthy of her love.

NG, it's really long and complicated but it sort of goes something like I got the org involved in Disney Give a Day, Get a Day (don't know if you heard about it but you volunteered with an org and got a free Disney ticket basically). It was a huge mistake personally even if the end results were phenomenal because our org is tiny and the Board of Directors was really failing at the time. I'll spare you the details but it ended up with my husband and I and kids doing so much work it was unimaginable. 

I couldn't manage the adult volunteers in a way that was working well for the massive influx of work. I was working 90 hour weeks just to keep up with everything and feeling like I had to because the value of the work I was doing was important. It took such a HUGE toll on my family even though it only lasted a few months. My daughter's grades crashed in school. It was a total nightmare. We all decided to take a break. It became clear that the work had begun to hurt our family both financially and otherwise and so I decided to end it and re-focus. The org won't continue since it was 100% volunteer run, the Board can't find a replacement for me that can volunteer so many hours. I've kept it afloat this year but have to make a decision by tax time (which for us is May). 

The good news is my daughter is back on track and so is my family but for me, well, I've been having a really hard time dealing.

Deejo, thank you. I'm actually looking at therapists that focus on BPD. The more I read, the more I think it applies. I think I'm highly functioning but in need of help. I need to learn coping skills.

I actually talked to him about it last night. We talked about BPD, read about it and discussed the idea of therapy. I spoke to him about how I felt him never being reliable during the week causes fears of abandonment in me which make me act like a loon and flat out idiot and then I get angry with myself for being so stupid. I told him how hard this year has been for me which is making things worse for us.

I don't know, I think it's time to admit a problem and actually do something about it. I've admitted it for a long time, just kept thinking I could handle it by myself.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> RD, this kind of fitness test I'm talking about is meant to sabotage the relationship. You tell your wife that you love her. Your wife has low self-esteem, therefore she doesn't feel worthy of love. So when you say the words, her presumption is that you are either a liar or you're pathetic ... so she goes about trying to make you reject her.
> 
> That's what I'm talking about in this thread.
> 
> Under normal circumstances, I actually prefer the other term for this stuff, sh!t testing.


Hell if the missus was like that I wouldn't even bother! I don't get this particular test at all.



> It is a means by which they test your sense of confidence, control, and self-esteem. You're wife deliberately taking forever to get dressed to go someplace she knows you want to go is a sh!t test.


More like testing my patience and getting me back for nagging her to hurry the f--k up lol


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Personally, I think it is absolutely HUGE that you are invested in exploring the issue in the first place. What my ex did was build walls around this stuff to seal it off, hide it away, and never have to look at it or deal with it.
> 
> To her credit, she is trying to change that now. To our misfortune, it's about 3 years too late.
> 
> ...


I can't say this any better.

Good luck Trenton.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Appreciate the feedback FA.
> 
> I know there were a number of similarities in our circumstances. Don't get me wrong, despite my introspection, things are good, I'm good. All of the changes I have made are for the better. A better, Me. Wouldn't have happened had I remained married.
> 
> Sometimes it's simply difficult looking at your ex-partner, and remembering the person you fell in love with, and how painfully little that person seems to have in common with the one you divorce. Just kind of sad.


If it helps, she isn't the one that changed.

Your view of her changed.

Your view now is likely much more accurate than before.

That can be really difficult to swallow.

But, personal growth can really hurt.

That's why people take such great lengths to avoid it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> GP, very true.
> 
> Random Dude, a fitness test is a woman putting her husband in a difficult situation and expecting him to overcome it in a way that proves he is worthy of her love. A destructive fitness test would be done for the same reason except no matter what the man does, the woman will not believe she is worthy of her love.
> 
> ...


Trenton,

Have you ever heard of Richard Schwartz?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Sometimes it's simply difficult looking at your ex-partner, and remembering the person you fell in love with, and how painfully little that person seems to have in common with the one you divorce. Just kind of sad.


Time and events changes people. Sometimes it’s an overall change for the better, sometimes it an overall change for the worse. I think the biggest change is caused when people don’t work through their problems together but instead walk the path of bitterness and resentment. Those things simply weren’t there at the outset of the relationship but can be there through it and at the end.

But maybe when it has ended for a while and we’ve managed to untwine ourselves emotionally and psychological from our former partner in life we see things we were previously blinded to and that those things had always been there.

So maybe they never changed from when we first met them and it’s just that we see them through totally different eyes when we’re no longer together. And maybe that’s where the phrase “Love is blind” comes from.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> If it helps, she isn't the one that changed.
> 
> Your view of her changed.
> 
> ...


Ha! You’ve been through it too Conrad. I can believe what I’m seeing now although it’s taking a while to really sink in. But at the same time I can accept what I’m seeing in my stbx and younger son because it makes a whole lot more sense than what I saw before. It was there before, I saw it but blinded myself to it. If that sounds crazy I actually think I’ve a little crazy making period to go through before I can get back to some form of stability and new growth. I know the timing is totally up to me but I’m blocked. This is the biggest sh!t test I’ve ever faced in my life.


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