# Trust Issues After Deceit



## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

My first post and very difficult for me to write this. It is long and I apologize for this, but I feel it's important to set the baseline to get a somewhat better understanding of the situation.

I have been married for 15+ years. My wife and I were together for nearly 2.5 years before we got married.

I met here at work while in college when she was 21.5 and I was 22.5. We talked a lot at work and became friendly. After we had know each other for a few months I asked her out and we went to a park and had a nice time, however I couldn't get a read on her whether she liked me as a potential boyfriend. She was somewhat aloof and cautious yet also very friendly to me. I would call her and she wouldn't always call me back, yet when we saw each other there was never any awkwardness and I felt she went out of her way to speak to me. I developed a very strong crush on her at this time.

After several weeks of this she came to a party that I had. When she was leaving I walked her to her car and tried to kiss her and she said she just wanted to be friends. I was devastated. I didn't see her for a few weeks because I went home for break and when I saw her again we still seemed to be on good terms despite her rebuffing me. Over the next 8 or 9 months we still worked together and spent time together with other friends in a group setting going out to bars and hanging out, however everything was platonic.

I was then told by a friend of hers that she really liked me. I was shocked but elated. We hung out together a few more times one on one and everything was fine but still nothing happened. Then she asked me if I wanted to go to a night club that had good live music and I accepted. We went and came back to her apartment. After hanging out for a while (still nothing had happened, not even a kiss) that night she asked me if I wanted to come up to her room. I was surprised but obviously thrilled.

We ended up having sex and have been together ever since. During our dating period I initially found her to be very sexually inexperienced. She claimed however that she had had a number of partners (8), most of whom had been 1 night stands. She also told me some troubling things about losing her virginity to a guy she hardly knew in high school, performing oral sex in a group setting, etc. To say that I was shocked would be an understatement. I had tons of friends including girls at the time and I had never met a more seeming "innocent" girl at that age, which was a big part of her allure for me. The sexual stories she told me bothered me tremendously because from the get go I really cared for her and viewed her as marriage material, but these things ate me up.

Here is where it gets interesting. I found out that most of the things she had been telling me were lies. She was embarrassed about a lack of a past (she came from a very strict ethnic family and wasn't allowed to date or go to parties in high school or most of college). She said that the other girls she was friends with would constantly talk about boyfriends, etc. and she felt very inadequate and like the ugly duckling (she was actually a very attractive girl) and she just wanted to fit in so making up a few stories seemed harmless. I did know some of her friends fairly well and they were not shy about their sexuality so I could see where she would feel this way.

We had many conversations and several arguments about the things she told me about her sexual past while dating as I became somewhat of an emotional wreck because I had such a deep desire to be with her forever but these things bothered me so much when I thought they were true that I just didn't feel I could get over them. I am not perfect, I had had sex before and I never necessarily thought I would marry someone who had no past dating history that included sex, but the things she had told me crossed a line for me as far as a potential life partner's past promiscuity. So after her stories started to fall apart and I confronted her, she told me that she had done nothing more than fool around with a guy she had briefly dated before me (think a PG rating), I was obviously upset about the lies but pretty stoked overall.

Fast forward 15+ years and we are married. I recently saw an online profile for the one guy she claimed to have dated back in college before me that she was viewing online and forgot to close out the window when she was done. This in and of itself didn't bother me as she would often look up people online that she knew or had known, and was actually quite nosy about it so this wasn't necessarily out of the ordinary.

However we were also recently rehashing old times, including our first time together. She made a comment that included a detail about our first time, trouble is the detail never happened and in all our years together this never happened (the detail in and of itself isn't sexual, but it was a reference to where we had sex).

This troubled me and as we were discussing it I said that must have happened with the other guy you were having sex with. She kind of laughed and I said but since you didn't have sex with anyone else then why would you say that? She gave a nervous laugh again and my stomach went into a knot. She then said that she had sex with the guy mentioned above, and now said they had dated for a few months but he had dumped her. Now remember I knew the guy existed and they had dated for what I was originally told was a very brief time but was told the relationship did not include sex.

So why did she lie about not having had sex all of those years ago after I discovered the original stories were untrue? She said she tried to tell me but that I wouldn't hear of it because I had deduced that the rest of the stuff was untrue and I wouldn't listen. In reality I don't believe she tried to tell me that hard, she even made up specific details at the time as to why she did not have sex with this particular person.

So here I am typing this totally emotionally wrecked, all of these years later. I have a huge trust issue with her after this. All of these years I thought that I was the first and to find out I was not is devastating to me, especially after being emotionally whipsawed by her lies when we were dating. Of course the natural thought progression is that if she lied about this, what else did she lie about? She claims nothing else ever happened.

I want to stress that I was not hung up on having a wife who was never with anyone, my only criteria in this department was that I didn't want to end up with someone who had been overly promiscuous outside of long term committed relationships. However after I was led to believe she had not been with anyone, after being nearly torn in two by her "stories", it made me very happy and added a dimension to my marriage that I believe is rare these days. Again, I'm not perfect in terms of never having had sex before I met her. But to have this yanked out from under me after all of this time and all that I previously went through with her lies and stories years ago has been very, very painful and hurtful.

I believe 100% that my wife has always been faithful as have I and I know she loves me very much, she is a very good person with a kind heart, this is not in question. However this situation has got me thinking about whether I was meant to be with her. The emotionally gut wrenching feelings that I had when we were dating have returned. The dishonesty all of these years is unsettling to me. This isn't one of those things that you can really talk about with friends or even loved ones (at least I can't), so I don't know where to turn. 

Thanks for reading and for any constructive replies!


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sounds to me like when she told you the truth, you were critical of her, so she backtracked and decided you'd like her better as a liar than if you thought of her as a "sl*t." 

Since you know she's a good person with a kind heart (your words) you can either recognize that she was trying to be kind to you when you struggled with the truth, or you can decide she was selfish and deceptive. 

Whichever choice you make will affect your relationship in the weeks, months, and years to come.


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## Hausfrau (Sep 18, 2010)

This was a long time ago. Your wife was young, probably somewhat immature and inexperienced with relationships, and it sounds to me like she was trying very hard to be whatever she thought you wanted her to be. 

You say that your wife is a good person who loves you and has been faithful to you. I seriously doubt either of you is the same person you were 17 years ago when you met and when all this happened. Honestly, I can understand your disappointment, but I can't understand letting this make you question your whole relationship.

Be angry, be disappointed...and then let it go and be happy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Of all the things that can destroy a marriage, what your wife did or didn't do before you two even met is not one of them!

This is your wife, no one here knows her like you do. Are you suggesting anyone here could tell if she's being truthful or not, over something that is totally inconsequential?

I think it might be a good idea for you to figure out what this tiny little things has got you so worried?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The take away is that lying will eventually cause problems.

Yes indedd this would make you wonder what if any other lies she has told you. Shame. This may be the only time ... or not.

Lying in itself is unfaithful. But the thing is you did nothing wrong whatsoever. Her lying is not your fault.

Lying is the problem Anon. Lying. Hopefully this was a poor choice of a young woman.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

The past is the past. Leave it there.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DaveGil said:


> I believe 100% that my wife has always been faithful as have I and I know she loves me very much, she is a very good person with a kind heart, this is not in question. However this situation has got me thinking about *whether I was meant to be with her. *The emotionally gut wrenching feelings that I had when we were dating have returned. The dishonesty all of these years is unsettling to me. This isn't one of those things that you can really talk about with friends or even loved ones (at least I can't), so I don't know where to turn.
> 
> Thanks for reading and for any constructive replies!



Whether you were meant to be with her based on.... Her not having been a complete virgin when you bedded her? If I remember correctly, you two were not married at the time you bedded her. You have given yourself a pass for your own sexual exploits including bedding a woman prior to marriage who would end up your wife, you are doubting your fatedness with your wife because she wasn't honest about her sexual past.

And you really trump up the charges with the statement about her lying to you all these years about it. Come on...she told you something untrue over and over through out the years, or was this something that just hasn't come up till now and you feel like she should have sat you down and explained just what she did with Jim bob in the back of his truck before she ever met you? Really?:scratchhead:

And you're okay with this double standard?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> The take away is that lying will eventually cause proble*m*s.
> 
> Yes indedd this would make you wonder wh*a*t if any other *l*i*e*s she has told you. Shame. This may be the only time ... or not.
> 
> ...


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

You've been married to your wife for over 15 years while the two of you have been completely faithful to each other.

Why are you soo worried about her past?? You certainly have a past too and neither her past or YOUR past has anything to do with your current marriage now.

All of us have skeletons in our closets we choose not to share. We all live and learn and if it doesn't affect our present..sometimes it's better to just leave it in the past.

Get it??

BTW..what IF she just came out and said.."Yeah..I had a few before you.." would it matter??

Seriously!! If that's all you have to worry about is her past after 15years of marriage??

Get real!!

She's your wife now and the two of you are living 15+ years of happily ever afters. My advice is to leave the past in the past and keep living your fairly tale ending.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

No indeed it is the lying. It has little to do with ego. I read his post carefully. It is about her being caught in a lie. It puts in doubt everything else. What else has she lied about? Perhaps nothing. But some amount of trust is either lost or put in doubt. Everything in their 15 years was assumed to be truthful. But now he has to wonder was he just loking through faithful glasses.

A person who lies about their past is saying they are ashamed. To say it is because of a man is disengenuos. 
You cannot have it both ways. Live your life like you mean it. If you have to lie then there is something wrong. There is no excuse to lie about your past. Whatever it is. Deceit will eventually cause its damage. This is just an example.

And BTW there is nothing at all wrong with a man having an ego. But this is NOT that discussion.

This is also is NOT the discussion about many men not wanting a woman who has slept around a lot. There is just not a high value to that for many men. Sorry. Nothing redeeming about it, but that is not his issue. It is the deceit.

How about people just not lie to the person who is supposed to be the most important person in their life?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

memyselfandi said:


> All of us have skeletons in our closets we choose not to share.


No we don't. LOL. There should be nothing you cannot share with your life long partner. Nothing. To hold back information is lying by omission.

Lying is unfaithful.


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## leegmoser (Mar 11, 2013)

Using deception in a romantic relationship or marriage is problematic because it often leads to a loss of trust and it makes people feel less close to each other.

Trust is vital in a romantic relationship.


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## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you very much I appreciate all of the responses.

Entropy and Leeg seem to have hit the nail on the head with regards to how I feel. 

The issue for me is trust. I think that a natural progression of finding this out recently is the thought process of what other lies are being told or had been told, sexual or otherwise. I feel betrayed. 

I gave such a fairly lengthy history because I wanted it to be understood that there had been some significant dishonesty in our relationship on her part while we were in college. One of the things I probably didn't do was convey that there were other things that she was dishonest about, i.e. the strictness of her family and the way she was brought up, which was for all intense purposes very strictly in terms of not really even being allowed to have friends that did anything more than want to got to the movies. 

It's hard for me to convey the extent of how gut wrenching it was for me when we were dating dealing with the various lies and stories she told me, sexual or otherwise (there were other things of a non sexual nature, too lengthy to go into). 

Furthermore, the stories that she told me about sex when we were first together were somewhat outside the norm of what I think most people would consider to be just ordinary "hooking" up. She also told me some non sex related stories that were untrue just to be clear. So at the time this haunted me terribly me because I had never fallen for someone so hard.

When we had the discussion about my belief that she had lied to me I never told her that she had to never have had sex with anyone else or anything like that. Admittedly when she told me she hadn't all of those years ago it was a great feeling. 

After all that we went through and the emotional turmoil that it caused me for her to have still lied and to let that lie stand all of these years, albeit in the opposite direction of the original lies, tears me up inside.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Okay, I get that you are now questioning what the truth is because she has lied. I get that you are now wondering if you can trust her because she has lied. Honest I get it.

What you are not getting is that the substance of the lie is the barometer of a persons trustworthiness. If I lie about my bra size does that REALLY make me untrustworthy in terms of accounting and finance? No, and the reason why is because the lie about my bra size would be to hide a truth that I feel bad about AND is inconsequential to how well I can keep the books. FYI ..I am lousy with accounting and I measure at 36 DD but wear a 40 B because I cant wear anything tight around my rib cage.

Second, your wife comes from a very traditional upbringing in which her virginity was strictly guarded. Then when she got to college she felt like she didn't fit in, so she made up a past history. I could see that maybe she embellished because she didn't want you to think of her as an inexperienced wallflower. I could also see how she slowly comes to understand she took her embellishments too far and then takes her retraction too far. Realizing how soothed you became when you felt that you had been her first, she left it at that.

Personally, I didn't have a huge amount of exploits before I met my H, but I did have some experience that I'm not too proud of. I have no intention of telling him, ever. Male ego , when it comes to past lovers, is far too delicate because men tend to be more competitive than women. You'll not find many wives who worry that their husbands had kicka$$ wild crazy sex with previous lovers. We only care about how you feel about us NOW. And so a lot of women, and I would even say MOST women see nothing dishonest about withholding particulars of past lovers. She married you. She gave birth to your kids. She loves you and has been good to you. Women feel the same way. He married me, he comes home to me, I gave birth to his kids. Any memories of past exploits are meaningless to what we have together.

So. Get over it. Get over your fragile male ego and self doubts and focus on the woman who has been sharing your bed these last 15+ years and not the confused girl who wanted to fit in and wanted your love. Sheeeshe!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

It was pertinent history about choosing a partner. Arguably the honesty is more important than the information.

I do not see this a fragile ego thread. Not this poster.

The fact a woman chose to lie to her future husband about her past is not a good thing at all.

We see guys marrying a woman thinking their wife has certain values and then later on they end up going out and hanging out with other men because they want the attention. Or worse yet, doing that but not being honest about what they do behind their husbands back. Why not continue to lie? It is clearly a bait and switch. Starting a relationship based on lies is not a good thing. It is not just about sex for sure either. 

How is her lying to him turn into his fragile male ego? Why is it not about her fragile ego and values? Having secrets from your partner seems a horrible thing IMO. Why would she not want to tell the truth? If he would not marry her then he is not the guy for her.

A woman who tries to convince a guy that she is someone else is setting both him and herself up for failure. Later after she is married she may realize she needed a different type of guy to be sexually satisfied. So you get that more Beta guy married to a woman who is really interested in a different type of guy altogether. Their sex life suffers and she seeks attention elsewhere. He thinks something is wrong with him because his wife seeks the attention of other men. When really she is just doing what she has always done. She needs him for security and comfort but wants these other guys for attention and excitement. She takes small breaks from her marriage. She is not attracted to her husband any more and so on. We see this all over TAM.

It is about compatibility.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> It is about compatibility.


Yes it is. He is clearly too fragile to deal with a wife who spent some time trying to fit in and made bad decisions as a result. 
<Insert sarcastic font indicating tongue and cheek comment not intended as a personal attack here>Dump her, by all means. Who knows how many football teams she's had.:banghead:


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes it is. He is clearly too fragile to deal with a wife who spent some time trying to fit in and made bad decisions as a result. Dump her, by all means. Who knows how many football teams she's had.:banghead:


Come on Anon, no need for that. He feels like the relationship was built on a lie. And why the attack on him? You could easily say his wife wasn't woman enough to own up to her past and was trying to be whatever he wanted so he wouldn't break up with her. How is that respectful? Why is she allowed to do this and you not challenge her integrity as a person and he is weak because he now feels like his relationship was built on false information? Are you saying that a woman should be able to do that to a man and he better not complain about it? It doesn't matter how long ago it was. Whenever you catch a lie, it's happening right then and there.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

FalconKing said:


> Come on Anon, no need for that. He feels like the relationship was built on a lie. And why the attack on him? You could easily say his wife wasn't woman enough to own up to her past and was trying to be whatever he wanted so he wouldn't break up with her. How is that respectful? Why is she allowed to do this and you not challenge her integrity as a person and he is weak because he now feels like his relationship was built on false information? Are you saying that a woman should be able to do that to a man and he better not complain about it? It doesn't matter how long ago it was. Whenever you catch a lie, it's happening right then and there.


I'm not saying that at all Flacon. Go back and read my posts. I'm saying he's making a mountain out of a pimple. I'm saying he is doing this because he has a fragile ego. I'm saying he has a fragile ego because I don't know of any woman at all who even thinks about her husbands sexual history and should the shoe be on the other foot, say a wife discovers her husband actually did sleep with the Olsen twins it would not affect their present relationship One. Little. Bit. (Unless of course the Olsen twins moved in next door and even then it would only be something to keep an eye on) 

Furthermore, I am of the opinion that young men tend not to be completely honest about their sexual exploits and I therefor do not expect honesty about past sexual exploits particularly if those exploits happened before the relationship in question. But I guess that's just me....and most other women too.

That wasn't an attack, btw. That was sarcasm. That was taking his logical conclusion to an absurd level to demonstrate how illogical it is. However I thank you for pointing out my words could be misconstrued. I will go back and amend them.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes it is. He is clearly too fragile to deal with a wife who spent some time trying to fit in and made bad decisions as a result. Dump her, by all means. Who knows how many football teams she's had.:banghead:


:scratchhead:

The worst decision as far as he knows was to lie. Lying is unfaithful.

When a lie is discovered it is like an affair in that even if it is a long time ago you have to deal with it when you find out about it.

If you feel most women are ok with lying then I guess you have a very low opinion of women. But when a man looks for a woman to spend his life with he is not interested in most women. He is interested in THE woman. To find out you were lied to about something as important as this is a kick in the nads. It bursts that bubble of trust one has. They have to re-evaluate the person they thought they married. This is not an ego problem for the OP. It is a value s problem. He now has to look at things over the marriage in a different light. He has since indicated that there are other things that makes him doubt her verasity. Sorry this is about being faithful in a marriage. Not all unfaithfulness is the same.

But I wll let you post on about how lying is ok and how men have fragile egos. Maybe some men just have high standards. They feel they do not have to settle for less. If they are all-in for the marriage they expect that the woman they chose is too. To find out your wife has lied to you is finding out you have been betrayed by the most important person in your life.

But I do agree that typically many women are ambivalent about their future husbands sexual past. But they are not the issue here. Many men do care though. And they are not the issue here either. This is has been discussed on other threads. You seem to want to make this thread about that. I think that is most unfair to the OP. Open another thread about this if this is what you want to post about. He is saying this is about deceit.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

I really don't know how guys think about the virginity thing. Even though my H is my one and only, he had multiple partners (to the point of promiscuity) (very short version of how I know this: because his sister and I were friends, he never gave me the time of day until I turned 18, but I always, sadly witness him bringing in many different girls and taking them down in their basement while I was visiitng his sister), neither one of us had any requirement of the other as far as experience. 

He knew he was [reluctantly] my first, but he said he wish he had not pressured me for sex, and had waited until we got married. As for me the only reason I didn't want to have sex with him although I was TOTALLY in love (infatuation?) with him, was because I figured I would quickly be replaced once I had sex with him. Even though he trusted I never cheated on him for the 3 years we dated before marrying, and he felt good about him being my only one, he would have liked it if wedding night had been first time. But then he always said, if he hadn't been my only, it wouldn't matter, it was just nice to know I was and something he really feels good about even today.

Said all this to say, that does not seem to be something to be just dismissed, as "oh, I lied. You are not my first and only. Too bad you thought so all these years. ho hum." 

But to the OP there is one thing that is curious -- didn't you KNOW? I mean my experience was it hurt like hell, and sorry for the TMI, but there was, well, blood.

On the other hand, though, the fact that she has not cheated all these years should count for something, right?

By the way how do men feel about the virginity thing, or your wife being the one and only, even if it was before marriage? My H says it doesn't matter but if that's the way it is, it's really a bonus. I do understand the double standard in all this, but it is what it is.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not saying that at all Flacon. Go back and read my posts. I'm saying he's making a mountain out of a pimple. I'm saying he is doing this because he has a fragile ego. *I'm saying he has a fragile ego because I don't know of any woman at all who even thinks about her husbands sexual history and should the shoe be on the other foot, say a wife discovers her husband actually did sleep with the Olsen twins it would not affect their present relationship One. Little. Bit.* (Unless of course the Olsen twins moved in next door and even then it would only be something to keep an eye on)
> 
> Furthermore, I am of the opinion that young men tend not to be completely honest about their sexual exploits and I therefor do not expect honesty about past sexual exploits particularly if those exploits happened before the relationship in question. But I guess that's just me....and most other women too.
> 
> That wasn't an attack, btw. That was sarcasm. That was taking his logical conclusion to an absurd level to demonstrate how illogical it is. However I thank you for pointing out my words could be misconstrued. I will go back and amend them.


I disagree though. And that statement is not really fair. You can't expect people to get over things because other people in relationships don't think it's a big deal. Maybe they should. Maybe everybody should have higher standards. Maybe less people would get married but maybe we would have a lower divorce rate. If you and people you know don't think starting a relationship on a lie is big deal then whatever. But he cares about this. I don't think he said he lied to her about anything. I potential life partner should know the good and bad who you are and not just say what you want to hear. Which is apparently what his wife did. Does he have a fragile ego or did she just have low self esteem? 

And I know very well the poor choices young men make. But I don't do those things and I don't have casual sex relationships. If I meet a woman and she says she doesn't do those things either, and then later on down the line I realize she lied, should I just get over it? After all, I held her and me to the same standard. Some people really really like being completely honest with each other in relationships about their past and what they want in the future.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

committed4ever said:


> I really don't know how guys think about the virginity thing. Even though my H is my one and only, he had multiple partners (to the point of promiscuity) (very short version of how I know this: because his sister and I were friends, he never gave me the time of day until I turned 18, but I always, sadly witness him bringing in many different girls and taking them down in their basement while I was visiitng his sister), neither one of us had any requirement of the other as far as experience.
> 
> He knew he was [reluctantly] my first, but he said he wish he had not pressured me for sex, and had waited until we got married. As for me the only reason I didn't want to have sex with him although I was TOTALLY in love (infatuation?) with him, was because I figured I would quickly be replaced once I had sex with him. Even though he trusted I never cheated on him for the 3 years we dated before marrying, and he felt good about him being my only one, he would have liked it if wedding night had been first time. But then he always said, if he hadn't been my only, it wouldn't matter, it was just nice to know I was and something he really feels good about even today.
> 
> ...


This is my one and only marriage. 36 years.

My wife was divorced and had a two year old when I met her. I raised the child as my own. 

I cannot speak of wanting a virgin per se. Never been where I am coming from. I am all about compatibility. Values. Substance. 

But I think what my wife got was to marry the bad boy with potential. Sounds like you did too. So I do not feel I fell into the catgory of Beta guy who married a party girl. That woild have been disaster. I had my fill of party girls. My wife could tell her stories about me as well. Me running into a former lover and then us breaking the bed that night. LOL. My wife was a friend at the time. She knew about my trip to Puerto Rico and the girl I met there and so on. She knew it all.

While each man is different I will repeat to me you want a woman who has proved she can live in a monogamous relationship. We all understand the maturing process. But no for me anyway there would be no great value in marrying a woman who felt sex was just sex. Who slept around. The thing is, people get to select whoever they want for whatever reason they want. Note I am not saying a virgin here. 

I think it is perfectly wonderful that your husband is your one and only. Don't let anyone tell you different.

To answer your question. If I was the only sexual partner for the woman I married it would just fine. 

I assume that some women do sleep with guys they intend to be the one and only for and to be disappointed. This is partly my reasooning for putting a high value on a woman who can be faithful and not a woman who just has party sex.

This all said when you choose a woman to be your wife you look at the whole package. A woman who can demonstrate a maturing process has greater value to me than one who cannot. I went through a maturing process. I am not ashamed of it. A woman should not be either. But if she lies then she lowers her value. She cannot be trusted.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

curlysue321 said:


> The past is the past. Leave it there.


OK. He should just rugsweep, eh.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Whether you were meant to be with her based on.... Her not having been a complete virgin when you bedded her? If I remember correctly, you two were not married at the time you bedded her. You have given yourself a pass for your own sexual exploits including bedding a woman prior to marriage who would end up your wife, you are doubting your fatedness with your wife because she wasn't honest about her sexual past.
> 
> And you really trump up the charges with the statement about her lying to you all these years about it. Come on...she told you something untrue over and over through out the years, or was this something that just hasn't come up till now and you feel like she should have sat you down and explained just what she did with Jim bob in the back of his truck before she ever met you? Really?:scratchhead:
> 
> And you're okay with this double standard?


Oh look, the sistahood leaping to the defence of their own again. Wow. Never seen that before.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> The worst decision as far as he knows was to lie. Lying is unfaithful.
> 
> ...


As usual, Entropy hits the nail on the head, but because of his post count and articulacy, the sistahood act as though he never posted and ignore him.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> No we don't. LOL. There should be nothing you cannot share with your life long partner. Nothing. To hold back information is lying by omission.
> 
> Lying is unfaithful.


I can't agree with this. 

From a religious point of view telling the truth is telling what is good for a person. Telling the real truth as perceived by the teller can sometimes be really harmfull. 

So there is reason to be telling somethings not and to exaggerate some others things from the intention of loving someone the most you can.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

OP, I see your posts the problems you do with your wife's storytelling. Ok. From her background, insecurity about boyfriends, sex, AND her liberate group of friends, she acted out of character in her relation with you. I can understand that. Be it good or wrong, I would not want to judge that from so long after. All people have some psychological flaws.

But I see in your reactions a kind of mirrored psychological posture. Your reactions are the opposite 'strange'. You are a bit obsessed with the whole subject. I can imagine you were also in the early day's. When you combine these two things you get the mental problemstate YOU are in now.

So maybe the problem is not her, but you.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> OP, I see your posts the problems you do with your wife's storytelling. Ok. From her background, insecurity about boyfriends, sex, AND her liberate group of friends, she acted out of character in her relation with you. I can understand that. Be it good or wrong, I would not want to judge that from so long after. All people have some psychological flaws.
> 
> But I see in your reactions a kind of mirrored psychological posture. Your reactions are the opposite 'strange'. You are a bit obsessed with the whole subject. I can imagine you were also in the early day's. When you combine these two things you get the mental problemstate YOU are in now.
> 
> So maybe the problem is not her, but you.


Yeah when people lie to you, it's your problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I am actually with Entropy on this one. There are two type of lies. The lies that you tell in self-defense due to poor self-esttem (which alot of people seem to be saying she did) and lies to dupe the person you are with to gain some sort of secret "upper hand" or "power trip" with your spouse.

IMHO, OP's wife is doing the SECOND kind of lie. Not the first. The reason that I say this is that she is posting about her sex life with some random old acquaintence on FB. This does not sound like a woman who is shy or lacks self esteem. No one needs to know about her and her husband's sex life outside their marriage.

The fact is that only complete and total honesty works in a marriage for just this reason that nothing can bite you in the ass later. If she had low self-esteem and was worried about losing OP then maybe OP was never right for her to begin with. If she was just making powerplays then OP would be better off without her. No lying, ever, unless it is due to personal safety.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I can't agree with this.
> 
> From a religious point of view telling the truth is telling what is good for a person. Telling the real truth as perceived by the teller can sometimes be really harmfull.
> 
> So there is reason to be telling somethings not and to exaggerate some others things from the intention of loving someone the most you can.


I have nothing to hide from partner. Nothing. Lying IS unfaithful. 

I am not talking about do these pants make my butt look big ... LOL. I am talking real adult stuff. Like telling your spouse you have never slept with your current boss and you have. Or telling your spouse you were at a friends house and you were really at an OSF friends house. You know. Lying. That by definition is not being faithful.

Also I am NOT religious. I am spiritual. While many religious people can separate their religious beliefs / actions I am not separate from my spiritual self.

There is no separation of truth. Once a person starts sleectively telling lies it only proves one thing. They are a liar. The other way to fix this is to stop lying. This includes lying by omission. This is the most common form of lie. Or staying something that is accurate grammatically but still obfuscates the truth.


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## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

As far as knowing or not about a woman's first time, it's always been my understanding that bleeding the first time is somewhat subjective to the woman and there are many factors. In my wife's case she was a competitive horseback rider which is something I had heard could cause someone to not "bleed". Plus the first time we were together she was in some obvious discomfort and it was awkward, sorry for any details that are inappropriate.

Again I appreciate all of the thoughts that have been posted, even the critical ones. I don't believe that I have a "fragile" ego. But I am admittedly as fragile as the next person when I put my whole self emotionally and physically into a relationship with someone who I believed to be the "one" and then to find out that things that were related to me, after going through very rough times due to wanton dishonesty and finding the strength to overcome this, were not honest is extremely hurtful. It's difficult for me to put this into context what I went through with her before marriage, she kept a lot of secrets (non sexual) regarding her family and upbringing. For instance, at the time we were dating at college her family lived about 35 minutes away. After several months of spending nearly every day and night together, she never brought me home to meet her family. Additionally, she would go home every weekend, leaving on Friday morning and returning Sunday afternoon or evening. This went on for months and I thought it odd but she told me she had things to do at home. After a while it started to creep in my mind, partially based on her stories, that maybe she had a boyfriend at home. As it turns out her parents made her go home every weekend (yes at 23-24 yrs old). It took until we were almost living together for nearly a year to find out the truth about this and many other things. 

Despite going through hell and back emotionally at the time due to the many issues, I stayed with her because I truly loved her and although hurt badly at the time by the deception and lack of transparency, I just couldn't let go even though there were many times that I wanted to. 

I have been honest with my wife about anything she wanted to know prior to marriage and during marriage. I have never cheated on her or even thought about it, even emotionally. I put my whole self out there, never holding back or trying to play games. Perhaps as a man I'm a sucker in that a lot of my friends or other men I know don't put as much emotional energy into their relationships, but I have. 

Entropy your words and wisdom have been somewhat soothing to me during this very difficult time and I appreciate it immensely, my kindest thanks to you. At this point I'm not sure what to do and it's eating me up, but I am looking inward trying to find strength.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

DG ....


What now? In the total scheme of things where are you guys today? Is there something more to this? I get there is now at least lost innocence. But what do you need to move on and heal? 

I suggest you two do His Needs Her Needs together. Agree on boundaries. You have a boundary of truthfulness and transparency it seems. But you know it is not only your trust at issue here. She needs to be able to trust you with the truth.

Can you work with her and put this train back on track? Can you work with her to define your marriage going forward? 

How does she earn back your trust? How does she learn to trust you? You do have 15 years together. As far as you know she has been faithful. As others have stated that counts for so very much. 

You can possibly use this as a way to gain the intimacy and trust in your marriage you always wanted.

Can you be the leader and show her the way?


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I do think that you can work through this, OP. There are obvious trust issues here starting long before you two married. It seems odd to me that you would be willing to enter marriage with this woman whom you already had trust issues with. My guess is had she told you the truth from the outset you probably would have married her anyway.

There are other issues that you need to work on though, aside from trust. It seems to me that you have a hard time dealing with the thought that your wife had any partner other than yourself. Lots of guys are this way. Just around TAM alone I have seen many men unable to get the image out of their wives bedding another man out of their minds it doesn't matter the time frame. This is probably due to the fact that sex is such a high priority for most men. Not to say that all guys are horn dogs, just that it rates high on the scale of most mens needs (needs not wants) I know that you didn't expect her to be a virgin but if you are honest with yourself the thought that she had saved herself for you aka "The Right Man" is certainly an ego boost and probably blinded you to signs to the contrary. 

The other thing that you should develop is making each other your most intimate confidant. Your wife should certainly not be talking about any of your intimate moments with virtual strangers. In fact she shouldn't be talking about any intimate moments with anyone at all but you. To talk about previous sexual partners to anyone else reflects her lack of empathy toward your feelings and your rights as her spouse.


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## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> I do think that you can work through this, OP. There are obvious trust issues here starting long before you two married. It seems odd to me that you would be willing to enter marriage with this woman whom you already had trust issues with. My guess is had she told you the truth from the outset you probably would have married her anyway.
> 
> There are other issues that you need to work on though, aside from trust. It seems to me that you have a hard time dealing with the thought that your wife had any partner other than yourself. Lots of guys are this way. Just around TAM alone I have seen many men unable to get the image out of their wives bedding another man out of their minds it doesn't matter the time frame. This is probably due to the fact that sex is such a high priority for most men. Not to say that all guys are horn dogs, just that it rates high on the scale of most mens needs (needs not wants) I know that you didn't expect her to be a virgin but if you are honest with yourself the thought that she had saved herself for you aka "The Right Man" is certainly an ego boost and probably blinded you to signs to the contrary.
> 
> The other thing that you should develop is making each other your most intimate confidant. Your wife should certainly not be talking about any of your intimate moments with virtual strangers. In fact she shouldn't be talking about any intimate moments with anyone at all but you. To talk about previous sexual partners to anyone else reflects her lack of empathy toward your feelings and your rights as her spouse.


Thank you Fledg, I do want to work through it and I'm trying to find the path to do so. Again I just want to stress that my wife was not posting any intimate information about previous partners online or discussing it with anyone else. My realization of the truth came from a discussion we were having. That being said, I also want to reiterate that the "virgin" thing is not my hang up. As you stated, yes this was an ego boost but not the be all end all. 

What has exacerbated the situation fore me was what we went through before marriage. I agree with you that it sounds somewhat surprising that I still married her despite the trust issues that we endured at that time and believe me there were many times that I wanted to take a pass. But something always brought me back as I had never, ever felt so strongly about someone or had such intense feelings...

This may also be why the pain is so great for me. I had many women (in my younger days, lol) who wanted to be with me but I never felt that I had connected on a deeply emotional level with anyone before. With my wife the connection, despite the issues, was surreal. To use an analogy she was like heroin to me (I've never used drugs just using the best analogy I can think of). 

Trying to find the light in a dark place...


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

OP, you mentioned that your wife was very secretive. Is she generally an open person now or do you have to pry information from her. Based on what you've said it sounds like your wife has this place in her head she doesn't let anybody go to.


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## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

FalconKing said:


> OP, you mentioned that your wife was very secretive. Is she generally an open person now or do you have to pry information from her. Based on what you've said it sounds like your wife has this place in her head she doesn't let anybody go to.


She is not what I would call a very open person although it has gotten better over the years. I sometimes have to be selective in trying to get information out of her because she doesn't always offer and if I pry too much she gets annoyed. Despite the fact that she is a very nice and kind person who loves animals (she has saved so many animals from abuse and neglect I can't keep count) she has a hard time connecting with people and has few friends. Although she had some friends in college she was not the outgoing sorority girl type.

As far as her openness with me, I came to learn that she desperately feared that I would reject her due to her family and ultra strict upbringing. On the flip side she feared that her family would reject me because she was not encouraged or allowed to have social interaction at all, especially with boys, growing up and even in college until she went away to finish her studies. She was traumatized by her strict upbringing, literally not allowed to have friends in high school or most of college. Despite being very pretty she has told me that she was picked on relentlessly as she wasn't even a nerd, she was nothing. 

Ironically her father, whom she both respects immensely and fears to a degree (not a physical fear but a fear that he may think bad of her), and I get along really well and always have. She told me before I met him that it might not go so well but in fact we never had a problem. 

I'm only an armchair head shrinker but I believe that these issues surrounding her family caused her to blur reality and fantasy so as to have, at least in her mind, a somewhat normal life. Please don't misunderstand me, she is not batchit crazy or on any meds or anything like that. 

I've tried to work on communication with her over the years but I imagine it will always be a challenge, particularly now.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

DaveGil said:


> She is not what I would call a very open person although it has gotten better over the years. I sometimes have to be selective in trying to get information out of her because she doesn't always offer and if I pry too much she gets annoyed. Despite the fact that she is a very nice and kind person who loves animals (she has saved so many animals from abuse and neglect I can't keep count) she has a hard time connecting with people and has few friends. Although she had some friends in college she was not the outgoing sorority girl type.
> 
> As far as her openness with me, I came to learn that she desperately feared that I would reject her due to her family and ultra strict upbringing. On the flip side she feared that her family would reject me because she was not encouraged or allowed to have social interaction at all, especially with boys, growing up and even in college until she went away to finish her studies. She was traumatized by her strict upbringing, literally not allowed to have friends in high school or most of college. Despite being very pretty she has told me that she was picked on relentlessly as she wasn't even a nerd, she was nothing.
> 
> ...


No I follow you. Despite being very attractive your wife seems to be socially awkward. Well from what you describe I don't think maybe when she said she did those "wild" things that maybe she was indeed lying. It appears she doesn't really know how to open up to people and may have tried to mimic the interactions and attitudes she saw a lot of in school, thinking you would think she was cool or something. Maybe she did sleep with another guy besides you or maybe she completely changed it all in her head? But being that she has trouble opening up she prolly will shut down when you want answers. Do you guys argue a lot? IF you guys have a disagreement who is usually the first one to cave? I'm asking because maybe if your wife knows how serious and bothered by this you are perhaps she will come around to opening up?


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## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

FalconKing said:


> No I follow you. Despite being very attractive your wife seems to be socially awkward. Well from what you describe I don't think maybe when she said she did those "wild" things that maybe she was indeed lying. It appears she doesn't really know how to open up to people and may have tried to mimic the interactions and attitudes she saw a lot of in school, thinking you would think she was cool or something. Maybe she did sleep with another guy besides you or maybe she completely changed it all in her head? But being that she has trouble opening up she prolly will shut down when you want answers. Do you guys argue a lot? IF you guys have a disagreement who is usually the first one to cave? I'm asking because maybe if your wife knows how serious and bothered by this you are perhaps she will come around to opening up?


For the most part your read is spot on. I know for a fact that she didn't do any of the "wild" things, there's no possible way due to her upbringing. She most definitely wanted me to think she was cool or at least not uncool. From her vantage point she saw me as a fraternity guy and party boy with a ton of friends both in college and from high school while she basically had no friends from before college and only a few in college. Additionally the few friends she had in college were very attractive and were not afraid to discuss their sexuality. 

As far as the other guy the one constant thing she always maintained was that she had a relationship with this person, I also knew this part to be true because again I knew her two main friends in college and they confirmed this. The part that she left out was the fact that the relationship was sexual, although to complicate matters she originally told me that it was then changed her story to it wasn't when I found out the other stuff was made up. 

We do argue a lot, she comes from an ethnic background known for hot tempers and I am stubborn as all git go. The first one to cave is a difficult question, it depends on the situation. I've already gotten her to open up and I am 100% certain that the relationship she describes was sexual. At this point I can probably get as much detail as I desire, not sure I have the desire to know much more though. 

But again being with someone else is an offshoot and not the main issue. I understand that she wanted my acceptance and therefore did and said things that were not true or embellished things and for this I forgave her many times long ago. If I could impart on you the challenges we had dating due to her holding back and lying to me on a variety of subjects and if I could share with you the deep emotional pain it caused me at the time, then to have to relieve that pain again, you would understand. Getting ripped apart was tough, having it happen again is gut wrenching. 

Maybe I'm the problem for allowing this to happen, many people would have simply moved on in the beginning. But again, despite the issues, I had a very deep connection with her and to me she is like the most addictive drug ever (even though I don't do drugs, lol).


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I think it is time to reinvent / reinvigorate things. 

Start thinking about moving your marriage in the direction you want it to go.


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## leegmoser (Mar 11, 2013)

I agree with Entropy but It is impossible to have a close, healthy relationship without trust. You need to be able to trust what a partner tells you. Unfortunately, the best way to destroy trust is by getting caught deceiving a spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend.

In fact, relationships often come to an end when someone gets caught lying.

On the other hand, while deception destroys trust, our relationships survive, in part, due to the fact that people rarely get caught, or catch their spouses, when they do lie. Despite what many people think, detecting deception is very, very difficult to do - especially when it comes to love and romance (see, catching lovers lying).

It also helps to point out that it is possible to rebuild trust once deception has come to light – difficult, but not impossible (see, rebuilding trust).

However, even though we aren’t likely to get caught when we mislead others, using deception can still be problematic even when it is not detected.

Using deception, whether it comes to light or not, creates distance in a relationship.

Lying to a husband or wife has serious consequences. The more people engage in deception, they tend to feel less close to their partners and they tend to feel more misunderstood. It is hard to feel like a partner knows you, gets you, understands you - if you are constantly lying to him or her (see, Cole).

And ironically, the more we lie to others, the less we trust them. We project our own deceptive tendencies on to others. If you think that your romantic partner is being less than completely honest – it can be a reflection of your own deceptive behavior (see, Cole).

Overall, using deception, even when it is not detected, can cause problems. It can lead to a loss of trust and increased distance between partners. And these problems are made much worse when deception actually comes to light (see, consequences of discovering deception).


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

DaveGil said:


> Thank you Fledg, I do want to work through it and I'm trying to find the path to do so. Again I just want to stress that my wife was not posting any intimate information about previous partners online or discussing it with anyone else. My realization of the truth came from a discussion we were having. That being said, I also want to reiterate that the "virgin" thing is not my hang up. As you stated, yes this was an ego boost but not the be all end all.
> 
> What has exacerbated the situation fore me was what we went through before marriage. I agree with you that it sounds somewhat surprising that I still married her despite the trust issues that we endured at that time and believe me there were many times that I wanted to take a pass. But something always brought me back as I had never, ever felt so strongly about someone or had such intense feelings...
> 
> ...


I apologize for linking your wife to dubious actions (other than the lying of course) I must have been reading too fast or confusing the threads I was in. 

I know that you didn't expect her to be a virgin but once the lie of it was out there you were both hooked into it on an emotional level. You, for all of the reasons I listed above, and her for being unwilling to pull the rug out from underneath you. That's why lies break trust so badly. Because we do have feelings associated with that lie and we feel tricked and played the fool (especially in a marriage that has lasted as long as yours.).

I can't agree enough with Lee's post above. She was lying to you at least by omission over the course of the marriage. Even if you never caught her this will inevitably create distance between you. You keep reiterating that you have never connected emotionally with a woman like you did your wife. You're addicted to her. And yet, through lying, she is keeping herself from really enjoying all you have to give to her. She has to be guarded and defensive with you. (This might be the cause of her stubbornness by the way)


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

leegmoser said:


> I agree with Entropy but It is impossible to have a close, healthy relationship without trust. You need to be able to trust what a partner tells you. Unfortunately, the best way to destroy trust is by getting caught deceiving a spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend.
> 
> In fact, relationships often come to an end when someone gets caught lying.
> 
> ...


I can't agree enough with this! I will say though that there are different kinds of lies. Those intended to keep the liar "safe", those intending to keep the spouse safe, and those which are power plays. A different lie causes a different reaction if trust is to be rebuilt. If the lie is self-defensive then OP will need to prove to her that he can move past this and love her for who she is and all their years together. He would actually need to prove that she can trust HIM. If the lie was meant to protect him the OP will need to show her that he is not a fragile personality. If the lie is a power play that is far more difficult to overcome and clear boundaries need to bee established. The only thing that is common to all is the reaffirmation that only TOTAL honesty will work.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> No we don't. LOL. There should be nothing you cannot share with your life long partner. Nothing. To hold back information is lying by omission.
> 
> Lying is unfaithful.


I assume that you have never told a lie. You have never done one wrong to your fellow man and got away with it. I hope you are judged as harshly as you judge women. You would not be so righteous when that happens. I bet you will beg for the mercy and compassion you never granted to women. 

There is something good about being at the other end of paying for your misdeeds with no credit for the good you have done. 

He had a right to marry the type of women he desired all those year ago. We all do. She should not have lied. Is the punishment worth the crime. Gilbert and Sullivan considered this issue. It was was in the contex of a comic opera but many critical and serious issues are hidden in humor. Makes them more palatial. 

15 years of love and devotion gets no comfort or compassion from a man who says he loves her? She deserves his judgement because she was unlucky to be born a women and sumbjst to a more stringent moral code then men? 

What a hard world we as women endure. There is no solice even when we give so much to men in their live. Reading so much of the same garbage makes me understand why so many women who ignore the needs of their husdands. They represent the gender that cannot give what they expect, understanding. I feel sorry for men in this situation but they have their own gender to blame. 

She has been a good and faithful wife for 15 years but his desire to shame her is stronger than his love, appreciation and compassion for her. Instead she is abandoned and her children's lives destructed all for the pride and righteousness of a man no better than her. 

I wonder if he has ever misrepresented himself to get what he wants. If he has been totally honest with his wife and others for all the entirety of the marriage, he may find it hard to have empathy. 

I think the double standard is horrible. A woman is judged in ways that men are never are. . Her past with him means nothing in this hard would. A lie about sex trumps all the good that she has shared with him. . The fact that it was necessary for her to lie is the first place is the cruelty that women must endure. 

I am glad she got to enjoy those years of marriage and had children. I am glad many women do. I think she should get rid of her husband. He may not be worth his righteous attitude. She will find someone more worthy and he can find a virgin that he can interrogate her about enjoying what is hers to enjoy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

This is an issue that makes me angry. Men do this without thinking one bit. 

I find it interesting that so many men use women for sex yet judge them at the same time. I wonder how many of the men that are so judgemental pretended to have an emotional interest in a woman but wanted sex only? I wonder how many shared their deceptive nature with their wives. 

I wonder how many kept up the deception for the entitrty of the marriage. I have have observed it here on this forum. Men are advised to go out and [email protected] a few women to get over the end of their marriage. A bunch of posters egg him on. I have never read of men or women advise a destruaght ex wife to use men to stroke her ego. 

I wonder how many of these men tell their wives that they support the use of women for sex if it suits the man? Moreover, how many are lamenting their wives using them for fomantvial support without meeting their needs. Being honest with their wives would not get them sex so they hide the person they really are. 

Sound familiar. If there were some consistency in the self righteous attitude of men, I may have had less sympathy for men who are sexually starved. I do have sympathy though , even though i know the blindness of many men to their faults. Many women overlook the elephant in the room. One dare not point it out. The suffering of one individual is more important than standing on their heart in principal. 

I also consider the multitude of my imperfections and hope I find mercy and understanding. I am far from perfect and i am judgemental. That hurts me as well as those who are the target of my judgement. I regrete the way i am and i am working to extingiush this falt and pray for the forgiveness of the people I have wronged. 

Some of you should consider this. Those who have lived the lives of saints get a pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I assume that you have never told a lie. You have never done one wrong to your fellow man and got away with it. I hope you are judged as harshly as you judge women. You would not be so righteous when that happens. I bet you will beg for the mercy and compassion you never granted to women.
> 
> There is something good about being at the other end of paying for your misdeeds with no credit for the good you have done.
> 
> ...


I think that this is a gross exaggeration. And an argument that many women use as a crutch. OP is still very much in love with his wife. That is why he is hurt by his wife's lie. There is no talk of divorce and he has acknowledged a lot of underlying issues. So it's not just about sex.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

This is a tough one.

If you weren't so much invested in her, the answer would have been clear but now its dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

I'm sorry for what you're going through.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

LOL @ "sistahood"............

The debate about why or what (sexual history) should or should not be important to the OP is not really releavant. It IS important to the OP.

OP - I suggest marriage counseling or at the very least individual counseling for you to get your emotional health back on track.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> If you were explicite about what you mean by crutch and were gender neutral, your statement may have had some merit. I can only assume the crutch you are referring to is a woman sexual history. Further, you think seem to think that men have a right to judge women. They don't.
> 
> I think you make my point. The officious nature of your post seems to assume that men are not in a superior position to judge. This is strange since men suffer the the consequences of their attitudes along with women. That is a crutch in my estimation.
> 
> ...


Hardly. When you make a point that is relative to THIS situation I'd be glad to discuss it. I don't doubt that there are many situations where everything you say is true right down to the bare bones. I do not agree that THIS case fits that discription in the slightest. What I do get is the feeling that just because it is true in some cases that you sweep a broad brush over every situation regardless of individuality.

I am not encoraging divorce at all. The husband still loves his wife. The only thing that he can do is ask for complete honesty from here. Which should be a given in any marriage, anyway.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I assume that you have never told a lie. You have never done one wrong to your fellow man and got away with it. I hope you are judged as harshly as you judge women. You would not be so righteous when that happens. I bet you will beg for the mercy and compassion you never granted to women.
> 
> There is something good about being at the other end of paying for your misdeeds with no credit for the good you have done.
> 
> ...


I have never lied to my wife. No. Lying is unfaithful.

There is noone I judge as harshly as myself. If the other person had lied I would have said the same thing. 

You all can go ahead and extol the virtues of deceit all you would like. If you read the rest of my posts you will see I am trying to help the OP get past this. But he has every right to feel betrayed. However he needs to find that within his own heart.



> I hope you are judged as harshly as you judge women. You would not be so righteous when that happens. I bet you will beg for the mercy and compassion you never granted to women.


Are you ok? I have a ton of compassion Catherine. So much so I am even going to say that I forgive you for these over the top harsh words because your angst is so very misguided. You are normally a very rational person. I wish no such thing for you. I wish you nothing but happiness in life and beyond.

If I were to die today and there is a God I have nothing to be ashamed of. I shall not beg. Not out of pride mind you. But out of the fact that as a man I have lived the best life I knew how. I do not live my life based on any expectation of any heavenly reward. I believe in doing the right thing and expect nothing in return. I am sorry for anything I have done in my life that hurt anyone. But I am also grateful for the times that I know I touched lives in a positive way. I am not even saying they balance each other out. I am saying they stand on their own.

We all make bad choices. We should not be upset at being called out for our flaws. I do not hide mine. I certainly have them. I have bared them and my soul on this site for all to see as an example of what not to do and as an example of what to do after that. If you feel the need to lash out at me then indeed call me out on those. But lying to my wife is not one of them.


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## DaveGil (Mar 10, 2013)

I wasn't looking for this to become nasty between what are some very thoughtful posters. I appreciate all viewpoints even the ones critical of me.

Some posters have helped me a lot and for this I am very grateful, and again Entropy my most sincerest thank you to you, your wisdom is honestly something I wouldn't have expected to find here. 

As mentioned I'm trying to find the light in a very dark place and hoping to move forward.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

DaveGil said:


> I wasn't looking for this to become nasty between what are some very thoughtful posters. I appreciate all viewpoints even the ones critical of me.
> 
> Some posters have helped me a lot and for this I am very grateful, and again Entropy my most sincerest thank you to you, your wisdom is honestly something I wouldn't have expected to find here.
> 
> As mentioned I'm trying to find the light in a very dark place and hoping to move forward.


Not your fault. It happens. Even with really great people.

Do His Needs Her Needs together. Understand each others needs and try to get to a point of intimacy where you guys can talk about anything. I think you have analyzed the past but need to define things now and going forward. As they say Rome was not built in a day. Patience. Baby steps. 

Spend time together. Date her. Enjoy life.


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