# Why even bother anymore?



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I had the day off, work holiday shut down.

My wife worked today because she is in management, but loves her job and it's the best she's had to date.

To surprise her, before she got home from work, I.....

- cleaned up / landscaped our outside, looks really good now
- kitchen cleaned
- dishwasher run and emptied
- recycling done
- upstairs and downstairs bathroom dishes and cleaned
- bed nicely made

She comes home, very pleasantly surprised. I give her a hug and say, tonight is your night. Have a bath and I'll go down on you later.

Then she proceeds to eat mack and cheese (crap food), talks on the phone with her parents and sister for at least 1 hour (they live 10 minutes away), surfs the net with her laptop and watches news, 2 hours later, I come down, want to give her some cuddling on the couch, then she'd go have a bath, some nice chocolates. Nope. grumpy, I still need my space, no cuddling, no bath, and that's it for the night!!!

She works a full time job, so do we all. This is the best job/career she's ever had in all respects.

Why do I do all these things on my day off to surprise her and this is what I usually get!!!

So I relieved myself upstairs and now am downloading movies for the night, alone. What a great wife I have!!!!


Why do I even bother?


How many women would love this type of an evening only for them after work?


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## Naomi22 (Dec 27, 2012)

That sucks!!! I can see why you are angry. It sounds like you are a really nice husband. Why do you think she acts like that to you?


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

And yet most women will tell us guys that the way to get a woman in the mood is to do just the things you did. As opposed to us just wanting to "jump their bones" at a moments notice.

I applaud you brother. And you have my sympathies.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

My guess would be her larger body, lower sex drive, hasn't found any real ways to stress relieve herself over 13 years, etc. 

Going down on your woman after a days work, cuddling on the couch, nice chocolates, watch tv together, tell me a bit about her day, is a bad thing?! Women wouldn't want this?

See, I never turn my wife down and I leave my work at work. I've found ways to deal with stress and she hasn't but always talks about it though.

I'm not mad, but I'm definitely not happy with her.......she makes simple things complicated!!



I've learned a lot from this forum, listening more, alpha, decision making, extra little things and when it's all said and done..........doesn't change much on her end.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

When i am at work sometimes i just want to come home and do my own thing.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

It could be she just wants to do her own thing for a while......you might be right. But as of now, I no longer am in the mood for her tonight. She had her golden opportunity and sucks to be her if you wants it much later in the evening because I'll be asleep.


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## downfall69 (Sep 23, 2012)

it's not that she doesn't appreciate what you did. i'm sure she is happy
you did all the cleaning so she doesn't have to do it. what you cant see is no matter how much you clean the house it wont make her want to have sex with you. why do guys do this all the time. your wasting your time. your breaking your own heart by expecting something that is just not there.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Youre starting a bad cycle....tell her how you feel. Stonewalling = divorce


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I would love it if my husband did this, but it wouldn't necessarily make me want to do anything sexual with him.

I like having sex with my husband because I love him, I'm sexually attracted to him and I like sex. I love him for who he is, not what he does for me.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

She knows I'm not happy.

Tonight would of only been for her, me giving her oral sex and that's it, nothing for me, and a back rub later too.


Again, this is not me having sex in my wife. It would of been me pleasing her and that would be it.


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## Naomi22 (Dec 27, 2012)

does she generally want to have sex with you? or is this an ongoing problem.
Does she generally shut you out and not want to hang out with you, and is this what bugs you- or is it more the lack of sex?

What does she say when you talk to her about it?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

OP, so how's life been lately? I don't recall your thread(s) off hand, but I assume it is about too little sex and/or too little affection. Since you incorporated more habits that shows your wife that you respect yourself more and value yourself as someone who deserves a good life (or being alpha as it's trendy to state here - and sell books too btw...), has your sex life improved at all? If it is improving, then this may be nothing more than a very stressful day and your wife simply wants to unwind without having to feel "pressured" to perform for you. 

If you are not seeing an improvement, then try to talk to her candidly about why she is cutting off sex and intimacy to the extent that she is. If she can't put a finger on it, then you need to throttle back some of those nice things you do for her all the time. I'm guessing you are still exhibiting some doormat tendencies, but probably improved from earlier based on what you typed in this thread.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> She knows I'm not happy.
> 
> Tonight would of only been for her, me giving her oral sex and that's it, nothing for me, and a back rub later too.
> 
> ...


That's not something I would like... just oral for me. That sounds like servicing her not like a loving act. Maybe some women would like the idea, but I would not.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

She generally doesn't go out of her way to want to have sex with me. I'm in great shape, weights, 6ft 230 lbs.

We work full time jobs and only get Saturday off together but we do spend time after work together cuddling, talking, etc.

The lack of sex on her part has been bugging me since we were married 13 years ago. We've talked about it, had verbal arguments about it, nothing changes in the end on her part.

I asked her today, do you have any sexual fantasies you always wanted to try, just never told me? She tells me no, I have none.

Our sex life has increase some what but nothing drastically. She still could go almost all month of no sex. If I get sex 3x in a week, that's almost too much for her. Whenever I want to go down on her, she always pushes me away. So sometimes I force her hands to the side and go down on her and she does like it.

Her low sex drive is how she was raised, larger woman, told she was fat in her youth, insecure, but has done nothing on her end to break the chain.


If she would do this for me, on a day she's home and I'm coming back from work..........I would have a shower first and then wow, good wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You did some helpful things around the house today. That’s great.

But then you decided what her evening should be like. And then when that was not what she wanted you got upset???? This sounds to me like what some of the guys around here call a sh!t test. 

Yes I understand that you were coming from a place of wanting to please her. But to please her you need to do something that would please her. Apparently a bath and you servicing her tonight was not something that she wanted. You set her up to fail. And not that she failed your test you feel justified in being upset with her. And you feel even more justified in being upset because you did a lot of work in the house today.

If you want to have a romantic night with her where you pamper her setup a date for it. Tell her that you would like to pamper her and ask what day/night she’d like to do that. Let her know some of the romantic things you have in mind.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> *If she would do this for me, on a day she's home and I'm coming back from work..........I would have a shower first and then wow, good wife*.


That's you. It's not her.

It sounds like the two of you do not communicate very well. You should talk with her about to night and how she felt about the things you wanted for her after work. How did she feel about it? What did she like, not like about it. What would she like?


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## downfall69 (Sep 23, 2012)

i feel so sorry for you. 13 years of wondering how to fix this problem without any success. if you've talked it over and over and over and still she does not try to change she never will. you need to make the change or you'll pass another 13 years wondering why. and it doesn't matter if you in the best shape of your life if she doesn't want you she doesn't want you period


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Is it correct to say, most women wish their men would do more of what I planned for tonight?

And then she isn't in the mood..........wonder why I won't be doing this again anytime soon.

If the roles were reversed, us men would not turn our wives down but its okay for them to do so? Am I missing something?

Seems there still is a double standard.

After my wife gets home from work, the last thing she wants to do, is get dressed up and go out again. She wants to chill.


What would my wife like? Okay......eat mack and cheese, talk on the phone for a few hours, watch news, nancy grace, and call it a night......what fun!!!

Main reason I don't go to the gym and train at home, hot women at the gym........temptation and situations would do me in. If a hot woman was flirting with me (happens), that's like dangling a steak in a hungry man's face!!!


I don't think she doesn't want me, she's just un-motivated and lazy anything outside of work and her family.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

So it's fine for a woman to turn down her man, even if he planned it only for her but if he turned her down, after her doing all this for him.........not happening, hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn!!! Not cool.


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## downfall69 (Sep 23, 2012)

you are blinded my your love for her. if she is so lazy and un-motivated to see that you are in pain over her actions maybe you should make it crystal clear to her how you feel and what will happen if she does not change. maybe that will motivate her


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

True, very true.

I think I will play the "I'm not in the mood" and see how she reacts and likes it. Time to get a taste of her own medicine.

We don't even have kids yet and I honestly don't want any with her until she takes care of herself, lose the weight, get a sex drive and resolve her issues.


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## downfall69 (Sep 23, 2012)

i went through what your going through for 10 years please send me a pm maybe my experience could help you out in some way although i did end up leaving in the end.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

You say your wife is a larger woman and she is not doing anything about it. Have you engaged your newly learned alpha traits to make her exercise and eat healthy? Who does most of the cooking at home? If it's you, then you can control some of what she eats at dinner. Who does the grocery shopping? If it's you, then you can limit the types of food you purchase and go for healthier snacks. 

You say the two of you work full time? Well, you can still eat healthy, home cooked meals without skimping on taste and quality of food. These are your friends to quick, home cooked meals: 1) Gas grill (or a grill pan for the range), 2) A Wok for stir fry and 3) The crock pot.

Sometimes, being the "alpha" means that you love yous spouse so much that you will do what is best for them even if he/she cannot see it. So what you need to do is lovingly but firmly convince her that it's time for her to start eating better and exercise. Assure her that you and her will be doing this together and that she won't have to do this by herself. Seriously, sometimes as spouses we have to do what's right even if it doesn't exactly endear us to our SO's. I'll disclose that I definitely have some weight that I want to lose and I'm not a skinny guy giving this advice out. My wife looks great and I too need to get myself back into shape. I let myself go this past year and it's time to get back onto the wagon.

Here is a healthy meal that you can put together in 30 min tops:

1) take 2 boneless skinless chicken breasts and rub them down with olive oil (EVOO preferably) and Mrs. Dash.

2) using a gas grill or a grill pan, preheat for roughly 5 - 10 min on med heat. Grill until the meat is no longer pink (or very slight pink is acceptable) - probably about 10 - 15 min.

3) slice the chicken into 1" by 2" or 1" by 3" pieces.

4) while the chicken is grilling, take a premixed bag of salad - preferably a "European, Italian or Parisian" mix of salad. Also buy a package of grape tomatoes and put a handful into the salad bowl. Add other veggies is you wish - I like to shred carrots and add them (if you're a purist, a carrot is a "starchy" veggie but I think it's perfectly fine to use it).

5) to add flavor, get a cheese grater and a small block of parmisian or romano cheese (I prefer romano) and grate some cheese into the salad. for a dressing, make a vinagrette (I like balsamic) or use red wine and vineger as a salad dressing. 

6) mix the grilled chicken into the salad. add the dressing and toss to coat well.

7) eat and enjoy a tasty, healthy and filling meal that can take at the absolute max 40 min to make.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

We both eat for our "Blood Type Diet" which is extremely healthy to do. But diet alone is only half the battle. The rest is exercise. Wife thinks is she eats a certain way, no exercise, she will lose weight and get in good shape.......yah ,right!

I do the grocery shopping because if she did, wow, even bigger girl.

I make all my mini meals for work. Easy to do. Very healthy.

Wife sorta does this, sometimes misses meals, eats nothing half of the day, then has chips and mack and cheese after work. I snack on walnuts and multi-grain bars.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I hear yah.

But too many times, maybe later, I'm not in the mood, I'm tired, BS. If I did that to her, big mistake. Nice double standard.

This is very simple. Sex with wife, married. Stars do not have to align. This isn't rocket science. Making something wonderful and beautiful, that's simple.........complicated!!!

I thought marriage was 50/50.....not her way or the highway.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> ...she makes simple things complicated!!


Welcome to marriage, friend, welcome to marriage.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

lol.......awesome!!:lol:


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> *We both eat for our "Blood Type Diet" which is extremely healthy to do.* But diet alone is only half the battle. The rest is exercise. Wife thinks is she eats a certain way, no exercise, she will lose weight and get in good shape.......yah ,right!
> 
> I do the grocery shopping because if she did, wow, even bigger girl.
> 
> ...


No offense, but that's bullsh!t. Blood type diets are fads just like the grapefruit diet, all fruit diet, etc. Yes, I realize you are referring to a way of life and not a lose weight quick diet.

This is why your wife is floundering while you are getting into better shape and worried about pretty girls tempting you to cheat. The root cause of your problems - her self esteem and her overweight condition - and why I focused on the diet and exercise in my post. Take a step back and consider this for a second: your wife has been large her entire life, right? She has been teased for her weight for the majority of her life and it put her self esteem in the toilet. Since I'll bet that she never learned how to eat healthy growing up and she probably wasn't ever encouraged to exercise, why do you assume that she'll automatically do all of this as an adult? Dude, she's on her own floundering here. Throw her a lifeline and EAT TOGETHER AS A FAMILY! Discard the blood type bullsh!t diets you two are on and eat together. Go grocery shopping together, plan your meals together, make your lunches together, exercise together (even if you have to throttle your workouts down, do so in order to get your wife started!), do things together.

I get it that you had this great night planned for your wife. But here's a guess that will get you a lot more mileage over the long term. Shift gears and concentrate mostly on helping her eat healthy and to exercise. IMHO, that will get her to see that you love her more for who she is and want to spend the rest of your life together as opposed to her thinking that you view her as a cum dumpster. That's my take on it and good luck.

I can't stress this enough though: 1) remember team work - you're both in this together, 2) do a real lifestyle change - I recommend the Mediterranean diet or a modification of it and 3) exercise together. In time, your sex life should be MUCH MUCH better.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I have never said to my wife, you're fat, lose weight. I know better. That's why I haven't pushed her on the weight issue. Sensitive.

From our breakfasts to almost supper, we eat away from each other, work. Maybe 9 hour days. Day to actually eat together, would be Saturday, our day off together but that day, she likes to sleep in and totally relax, until she works again starting Sunday. I understand that and let her do her thing.

I was introduced to the blood type diet when we were married by a competitive body builder friend of mine. I turned my life around because I had an EKG at age 24. Turns out it is improper diet, so I switched over, lost 50 lbs in 6 months, slowly gained the weight back and now I'm 230 lbs and feel great. A lot of pro body builders are on this diet as well. It's not 100% but it does solve a lot of issues I had. Even my wife's naturopath has got her on this diet and has eliminated my wife's life long ulcer, most of her headaches and no more stomach issues. And it's free.

if my wife said to me, tonight is for you. Would I turn her down and make lame excuses? Never and I never have!!

I'm always open to new ideas and love to try them. I like to do new things.....spice it up baby.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

I think your wife is a smart woman & saw right through your scheme.
You see, everything you did you did for YOUR benefit, not really hers.
The reason they're called self-less acts is because they ARE self-less, you do them expecting nothing in return.
But that wasn't what you did, you fully expected to have sex with your wife after doing the things you did.
If you want to do things for your wife, then do them, but don't do them only because you expect something in return.
And then get pissed off when you don't get that something.
Because if it really was ALL about her, then you would have had no problem with how she relaxed tonight.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I think many here have missed what I said.

Tonight was only for her. Nothing for me, no sex for me, only for her!! That is a selfless act, not selfish.

The chores I did, so she can totally relax and do nothing. Selfless, not selfish.

The evening was for her, not me. Spontaneous and not planned, for her.

But I guess I can't do that either because I'm selfish. How about I do nothing next time.......cool, done because I'm selfish.......yah right.


If I expected sex for me tonight, then it would be selfish on my part and everyone is correct then.

Life is spontaneous, unplanned and fun, makes it interesting. If it's all known beforehand, day, time, BORING.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I think many here have missed what I said.
> 
> Tonight was only for her. Nothing for me, no sex for me, only for her!! That is a selfless act, not selfish.
> 
> ...


Then why are you pissed off that she didn't fall in line with YOUR plans?
If it really was all about her, then her reaction, whatever it was, would be a moot point & you wouldn't be posting on TAM about how pissed off you are.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I have never said to my wife, you're fat, lose weight. I know better. That's why I haven't pushed her on the weight issue. Sensitive.
> 
> From our breakfasts to almost supper, we eat away from each other, work. Maybe 9 hour days. Day to actually eat together, would be Saturday, our day off together but that day, she likes to sleep in and totally relax, until she works again starting Sunday. I understand that and let her do her thing.
> 
> ...


You may have never called her fat, but did make any serious efforts to help her improve her diet and to get exercise? This is kinda like the white elephant in the room, isn't it? I assume you want your wife to be with you for the long term, don't you? If I change the condition in your first few sentences, would it make a difference? _"I have never said to my wife, you're addicted to nicotine, quite smoking. I know better. That's why I haven't pushed her on the tobacco use issue. Sensitive." _

Do you both work days? I know she's in management, so I'm guessing that you work 7 - 3 typically while your wife works 8 - 5. Assuming you get home first, can't you have dinner on the table for the two of you on Mon - Fri? I don't find your excuse for not eating together all that solid... You may not eat breakfast or lunch together, but couldn't the two of you spend time together packing your lunches the night before, or getting all the ingredients together for the next evenings meal together? It's not hopeless, this is your wife. Find time to make it work.

Whatever, if the bloodtype diet works for you then great. Just do it with your wife together. 

Aside from what sounds like rather clumsy seduction techniques on your part, I strongly believe the root cause to your lack of sex and intimacy is due to your wife's weight and self esteem. I'm throwing out the suggestions to you to tackle that problem head on with her as opposed to each of you fending for yourselves. First, your current approach is not working. Second, since your kinda married it may be a good decision to try to help your wife out with diet and exercise instead of letting her fend for herself. Being an "alpha" is much more than just trying to seduce your wife for sex. Being an alpha is supposed to show that you are a strong, dedicated husband that wants what's best for your wife and your marriage.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I had the day off, work holiday shut down.
> 
> My wife worked today because she is in management, but loves her job and it's the best she's had to date.
> 
> ...


Your own words, "and this is what _*I *_get."


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

People aren't seeing the point here.

If I can make the time to plan this for her, she can then say NO.

But if she did the same for me and I said NO.........that wouldn't happen!!!

Double Standard happening.


I hear yah about getting her to exercise and it is a sensitive topic. Either way, she will see it as "do you think I'm fat"? I'm screwed either way, very tread on glass suggestion.

We get up around 4:30am - 5:30am and are out the door by 6:15am ish. We get back by 4pm - 5pm ish. I get home a little earlier than she does, so I have the daily chores all done by the time she gets home and sometimes, I already have food waiting for her, so we can eat together, chat and watch tv. Surprises on my part and she sometimes buys subs or wraps and does the same, we chat, eat together and cuddle later on the couch.

Blood type diet isn't 100%, totally true. It's just a good starting point and see what works for the individual and how they respond and feel.

I will try and be more caring, understanding and alpha, which is actually working.


This is the 21st century and we're supposed to be equals, not her way or the highway in the end.


If hubby in the mood, she makes the time
If wifee in the mood, he makes the time
If both in the mood, great
If both not in the mood, fine


Not if she's not in the mood, sucks to be hubby.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

You're not being consist in this thread. 
On the one hand you're saying you did ALL of this stuff just because you wanted to do it for your wife, no strings attached. 
Then on the other hand, you're saying you did it because you wanted some sexual gratification & are upset that you didn't get it.
And if your wife had done all this for you & you didn't get sexual with her she would be pissed.
So, which is it really? 
Be honest, would your wife do a bunch of things for you, expect you to have sexual relations with her & get pissed if you didn't want to have said relations?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Good, learning. I can understand more of the woman's perspective now. I still think women make simple things more complicated than they should be, but I am learning and getting it more. I guess for us guys, its simple, fewer buttons to push.

I planned this spontaneous night for her, something a loving husband would do for his wife. No strings, no self gratification because the sex, chocolates, cuddling, chores were all for her as a surprise. I didn't say to her face, I want to eat that #$%^ out. No, it was more subtle, go upstairs, have a shower and meet me on the couch......and it's about you tonight is how I worded it. There is definitely a double standard happening still.

I didn't actually get angry at her, I just went upstairs and watched a movie on the PC and chatted with you all, to learn more about the why's and huh's?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

You keep saying its a double standard like you and she have to like and want the exact same things. You don't. 

So we've established that you thought she'd like cuddles on the couch, chocolates, a bath and oral sex, but she didn't. Has she liked that before? Is she annoyed about something? What has she told you she likes, how does she choose to spend her time? 

Like FrenchFry said, if you has truly been wanting to make it all about her you would have made her whatever she wanted to eat and left her alone to talk to her family. 

And stop saying "women are soooo complicated" like we're all the same. It's beyond irritating.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I wish as a man, I could literally think, feel and understand things as a woman would. But the same would go for women understanding men. Both sides equally accountable.

One of my fav chick flicks is "What Women Want" with mel gibson by the way and "Ghost."

Men see black and white.....Women see color.


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## Jeapordy (Aug 12, 2012)

Dude,
You were going to read MMSL on one of your other threads. You need to do the MAP. Man up! 
Your plan worked. You were trying and box her in so she would have no choice but to have sex with you or to be honest that she didn't want to have sex with you. Guess what, she didn't want to have sex with you (even oral sex just for her is still having sex with you). You're in a near sexless marriage.
You need to stop the nonsense and actually be more Alpha, don't just talk about it. You are still worried about how "sensitive" she is, so you aren't being honest with her. At this rate, your marriage will be over, or will be sexless forever. 
It's obvious that her weight really bothers you. Tell her!
It's obvious that sex is important to you. Tell her that it is a deal breaker for you!
She isn't going to divorce you for being honest, unless she was already headed down that path and this just gives her the excuse. 
She needs to know that she has a responsibility to meet your needs just as much as you have to meet her needs.
So man up, take the hit on her being upset and then start building your marriage based on honesty. This is better than one of you having an affair down the road because you are so unhappy in your marriage.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I had the day off, work holiday shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, lets call a spade a spade

This wasn't really "Her Night"...this was "Your night"...and it entailed her having a bath and you going downtown...because that's what YOU wanted to do to HER.

For your own benefit, don't spin this in your head...if you really wanted her to to what she wanted, why would you have a problem with her eating mac and cheese, the convos with her family and the computer time? seems like that's what she wanted...yet that didn't make you too happy

You see, the "wanting" energy reads through your post...so I'm sure she could "feel" that too when she came home...and that's why all of the things you did: the clean house, the shiny counters etc (things lots of husbands do)...just come off as annoying...and rather pathetic

The Sexual Motive is way too apparent in your desire to please.

You ask the question: Why even bother anymore?

The Answer is: STOP BOTHERING

You won't get sex by becoming the maid...and basically begging for it via a clean house

You won't get sex by 'pretending' it's all about 'pleasing' her

That's not how mother nature wired women

Assert yourself as a man. Assert YOUR DESIRES as a Man.

And your wife will wind up feeling way hotter for you


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I downloaded the books and I will be reading them now.

true, wasn't her night. Feel I kinda wasted the day planning it and such. A let down. See how she likes it when the tables are turned, being more of a man.

I want to spend more cuddling time, massages and "maybe" intimacy with her, not sister, parents, laptop, etc.

I will stop bothering.

I will stop being the maid

I will be more of a man then, good and bad.

I can do this, even though its not easy.


Being honest, if I could have sex with her every day with fantasies, perfect. But I can settle for 3x a week, not 1x a week or less. Want a wife, not a friend with benefits or room mate.


Reading through no more mr. nice guy........interesting read. Knew most of it, a lot doesn't apply to me but some of it is informative......


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Have you actually told her what you want? Or are you just planning to punish her by withdrawing?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> Is it correct to say, most women wish their men would do more of what I planned for tonight?


What to give her oral sex and a massage? Your wife is not most women. What is it that your wife would like?
I would love the massage. I would love to have a session of sex planned out. I would not like for my husband to decide that he was going to just give me oral sex with no love making with him, nothing mutual. Like I said earlier that feels to me like he’s would be servicing me so it would not like that.
So what does your wife like? Have you spoken her yet about this?


CuddleBug said:


> And then she isn't in the mood..........wonder why I won't be doing this again anytime soon.





CuddleBug said:


> If the roles were reversed, us men would not turn our wives down but its okay for them to do so? Am I missing something?


You say “us men” as though you speak for all men. You are wrong that all men would not turn their wife down were the same thing offered to them. I know that for a fact. Some men do turn down similar offers from their wives… often.



CuddleBug said:


> Seems there still is a double standard.


Nope, no double standard. You need to know what YOUR wife wants. Not what most men would like or most women would like.



CuddleBug said:


> After my wife gets home from work, the last thing she wants to do, is get dressed up and go out again. She wants to chill.


This is normal for a lot of people. What about on the one day when the two of you have off. Would she be happy to go out on that day? Or does she just want to stay at home and veg? 




CuddleBug said:


> What would my wife like? Okay......eat mack and cheese, talk on the phone for a few hours, watch news, nancy grace, and call it a night......what fun!!!


Did you talk to your wife? Did you ask her what SHE wants?



CuddleBug said:


> Main reason I don't go to the gym and train at home, hot women at the gym........temptation and situations would do me in. If a hot woman was flirting with me (happens), that's like dangling a steak in a hungry man's face!!!


Ok.



CuddleBug said:


> I don't think she doesn't want me, she's just un-motivated and lazy anything outside of work and her family.


So you don’t like your wife and make disrespectful judgments of her. Maybe this is why she’s not interested?

Earlier you mentioned that she ate mac & cheese for dinner and how that was junk food. But then part of your planned treat for her is chocolates? So junk food of your choice is ok? But junk food of her choice is not?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> I think many here have missed what I said.
> 
> Tonight was only for her. Nothing for me, no sex for me, only for her!! That is a selfless act, not selfish.
> 
> ...


I get that it was for her.. the oral and the massage. 

But how was it spontaneous? You had it planned out.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Cuddlebug,

In my opinion, your approach is flawed. Did you seriously do this expecting results? I am more in line with what Elegirl said about you setting her up to fail to be frank =/

Note that the following is just my opinion:
You're missing a rather key element in your game;

Mood - Put yourself in her shoes, you just finished work, you want to go home but you have other crap on your mind, and then you come home with your spouse doing all this random crap and obviously wanting your attention when you have other stuff you have planned and want to do during the night... my wife did sh-t similar to this a few times and I just went "fk, now I have to put out, can't I just be left alone for a while?" Cold, perhaps, but I just wasn't in the mood.

How about the rest of the day? How about some tease, some flirting, some ANTICIPATION, some buildup - not a shock. The whole surprise thing has be played very carefully, it has to come unexpectedly but it still requires the right mood for the other partner to work effectively. It should be used to amplify the romance, not try to kick start it.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I wish as a man, I could literally think, feel and understand things as a woman would. But the same would go for women understanding men. Both sides equally accountable.
> 
> One of my fav chick flicks is "What Women Want" with mel gibson by the way and "Ghost."
> 
> Men see black and white.....Women see color.


You watch chick flicks and your username is cuddlebug.

Hmm....

BTW, PM machiavelli, and ask him to set you straight, his advice was invaluable to me, and has turned my sexless marriage around. I was acting like a pathetic pissant, and my wife just felt nothing for me.

I employed the 180, worked on myself, didn't give a flying fcuk whether she lived or died, and FM did she notice.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I wish as a man, I could literally think, feel and understand things as a woman would. But the same would go for women understanding men. Both sides equally accountable.
> 
> One of my fav chick flicks is "What Women Want" with mel gibson by the way and "Ghost."
> 
> Men see black and white.....Women see color.


What a bullsh!t post. If anything, you acted like a "stereotypical" woman by putting your SO through a sh!t test. You claimed you made the night all about her but in reality it was about you. Every poster in this thread saw through your bullsh!t, yet you continued to play the "innocent" routine where you pretended to be the consummate altruist...

I already told you what the root cause most likely is. Go ahead and run your "MAP" or figure out how to be more like a "bad boy" to get your wife to desire you more. Maybe you'll up your hit rate from once a week to maybe 2 times a week on occasion. The reality is that you are willing to trip over the $20 bills in order to stoop down to pick up those shiny new pennies. I'm not an Athol Kay disciple, but there are some things that are helpful. I do not think this is one of those cases.

Do you want to be the "alpha dog"? Well, being the alpha involves you not taking disrespect and not allowing yourself to be trampled over by your wife. But it also means that you in turn watch over your wife, love and respect her and not intentionally trample over her either. It also means that you show your love for your wife by being willing to go out of your way to save her from herself because you are the man of your house and want to make sure that your wife stops harming herself. It means that you don't sit idly by and watch her to continue to wallow in her own misery due to the physical, emotional and mental fatigue that her weight causes her. 

In my book, being the alpha DOES NOT mean that you try to adjust your image so that you look more like the "bad boy" in order to increase your sex life. I think you are confused over what being alpha means. It looks like you think it's all about getting a piece of ass. What you fail to recognize is that it's about being the complete man. Sure, being the alpha means that you are looked at as having value and are desirable to her. But is also means that you have to put in the hard work that a good husband has to do in order to tend to the marriage to strengthen it and grow the love within it. You want all the fun without the obligations that are attached to it. 

You know what they say - with power comes responsibility. You want more power in your marriage? Then man up and take the responsibility that comes along with it.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

It seems that everyone is making good points. The thing is, you can't bring someone bananas when they want apples, and then accuse them of being selfish as you brought them bananas... Another example, I don't go cook an elaborate dish with the things he isn't really into, and then expect him to enjoy it or else accuse him of being selfish, as I did all the stuffs for him.

But in any ways, you need to figure out why she's not really into sex. She might appreciate you doing more house chores and such, but then this barely has anything to do with her sex drive or attraction to you (unless her being sexless is actually from resenting you not doing house chores, but I suppose this is not the case).
Only by opening up and trying to tackle the real underlying issues that are affecting sex can you both deal with the sexless issue. Although of course, on the other hand, not worrying if you are not being happy would be selfish. Both partners needs to be equally caring for a marriage to work.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Your approach makes perfect sense to me because it's typical male, "If A then B" thinking.

But it doesn't work....Women don't see the world that way; don't respond that way and are put off by even the tiniest hint of tit for tat expectations. 

If I were to guess, I would say that the evening derailed for both of you during the period you were apart and she drifted into relaxation behaviors that don't include you.

Is your wife willing to talk about her day at work? Mine likes to spend a solid hour discussing every tiny detail, right down to the facial expressions of her co-workers.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> She generally doesn't go out of her way to want to have sex with me. I'm in great shape, weights, 6ft 230 lbs.
> 
> We work full time jobs and only get Saturday off together but we do spend time after work together cuddling, talking, etc.
> 
> ...


Ok so many things that you wrote caught my eye. It seems to me like u have been trying to fix/save/heal/change this woman since day one. 
People that do this typically come from families where there was addiction present or some sort of dysfunctional dynamic b/w parent and child for w/e reason. Anyway i think there are deeper issues for you here. Have you thought about counseling? 

You can not fix her or change her or heal her. It has never worked and it will never work.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

BeachGuy said:


> And yet most women will tell us guys that the way to get a woman in the mood is to do just the things you did. As opposed to us just wanting to "jump their bones" at a moments notice.
> 
> I applaud you brother. And you have my sympathies.


Agree. We see it here time and again. The more a man does what she "thinks" she wants, the less motivation there seems to be for her to change her ways, and the less seemingly attractive he becomes to her. 



> ut to please her you need to do something that would please her. Apparently a bath and you servicing her tonight was not something that she wanted. You set her up to fail.


He tried. That should count for a lot, and it counted for nothing in her eyes. 

He needs to get things arranged to where she once again is worried about pleasing HIM. Right now sounds like she could give a crap. Because she has continued to get away with it, and she knows he's not going anywhere. 

If this is allowed to keep up, in time he'll get the "I haven't been happy (or attracted to you) in a long time" speach. Even though he's trying. 

The way to a woman's heart is not to kiss her azz. It is to treat her well, but also expect the same from her, and do not tolerate less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Hi all,


I asked my wifee this morning, while we were hugging, why don't you like it when I kiss your neck? She tells me, she just doesn't like it. I tell her okay, but I'd love it. 

When we hug, she doesn't like it when I grab her butt and hold her in tight, so I just grab her back. I tell her, I'd like my butt grabbed. 

When I kiss her, I like to passionate kiss (tongue). She doesn't like that, I asked her why not? She says she doesn't like a tongue in her mouth. I tell her, I'd love that. 

I like to give her butt a grab now and then when she walks on by, she doesn't like that. I'd love that. 

I asked her, lets have a shower together. She says no. Why not? Insecure. I would kill for that. Never been in the shower or bathroom together ever.

I am not withholding anything from her, hugs, cuddling, sex when she actually is in the mood.

I would consider MC if it would lead to serious change but if it doesn't, to me, huge waste of time and just more talking.

That I will try. Ask my wife more about her day at work. She can go on and on and on..........1 - 2 hours later..........then she feels great but I get all worked up, like a stress transfer from her to me.

If my wife had a normal sex drive, did things most woman are into and took care of herself, fantastic. 

Have I ever said to my wife, I'm not in the mood, maybe later, tomorrow, you just had it once, you want a hug or cuddling again? NEVER!! 

Have I pushed her away, don't do this or that? NEVER!! 

Have I ever got her in the mood and then fallen asleep? NEVER!! 

I'm the one who has gone to bed worked up and then nothing. No, I don't need sex every day, but when I am in the mood, it's spontaneous, life is like that, she should make the effort. 

A good older friend of mine once told me, his girlfriend always made the time for him, even if she wasn't in the mood. They had one of the best, close, relationships I've ever seen. Number one thing I've been told to get to a man's heart......sex. I've been told that by another semi-retired co-worker as well. Another former co-worker, told me the same thing. Another new, young co-worker told me the same thing.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

donny64 said:


> Agree. We see it here time and again. The more a man does what she "thinks" she wants, the less motivation there seems to be for her to change her ways, and the less seemingly attractive he becomes to her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

It is clear the wife has body image issues. But it could be complicated by the fact that from what I read it's all about what Cuddlebug wants. 

Ask your wife where she sees herself and this marriage in another 5 years. 

Ask your wife what she want from you right now.

If she says I don't know or other vague things i would consider moving on. Why spend the rest of your life trying to get the compassion that you seem to desire, but aren't.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Since we got married, I've changed a lot.

Gained about 60 lbs muscle mass

Got laser eye surgery

Learned and do all finances, grocery shopping, most of the chores (inside and outside), repairing things around the place, always something new and fun to learn, grow and change. Want to try new sexual positions, do things, not same old. You get the idea.

On my wife's side, smart, kind, caring woman but hasn't taken care of herself, sex drive hasn't changed much, no fantasies are anything kinky, hasn't learned or done too much around here and she's comfy. If I had no sex drive, perfect marriage for us then. 

If I can change, she can change. Anyone can grow, learn new things and change.



I will ask her later, is there anything I can do to make you happier? More secure? Talk to me!! Fantasies?


Soon after we got married, my wife had a habit of not telling me what was on her mind, so she would unload everything over a few days, totally blowing me away. I got mad, she left and went to her parents place and wanted out of the marriage. She told me, she didn't know if she wanted to come back. I worked 10 hr days back then, weight trained and grocery shopped as well, 12 hour days. She came back late, cuddled to my back, I want this to work and I'm sorry I don't tell you what's going on, etc. Her parents told her this!!! Since then, we bought a place, got a cat, have our own cars, both work full time and fighting is pretty much eliminated. It's just the on going physical / sexual situation that's never changed and I'm sexually starved.


For myself, I don't need the stars to align, it's not complicated or rocket science, she doesn't have to read books, go through hoops, bend over, get rejected, do many little things and maybe I might be in the mood........none of this.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Also, you did all those things, told your wife "hey I'm going down on you tonight, then...tried to cuddle on the couch?
> 
> You ever get the sensation you wife dislikes your seduction technique?
> 
> ...


Coming from a guy who has been shot down a ton in my life, which I assume Cuddlebug has as well, putting the effort into seduction that you decribe is out of the question. The more effort you put into the seduction, the more hurtful it is to get shot down. Imagine if you just walked up to your husband and said "I want you,' and he said no. You'd be hurt. Now imagine if you put on your nicest piece of lingerie, clean yourself up, put on nice perfume and told him you want to fulfill his wildest desires and he said no. That wouldn't just hurt, it's downright embarrassing.

When you get rejected a lot, you go for the easiest route because you know the odds are you'll get shot down no matter what you do, so you might as well go for the less painful option. You might be slightly more successful doing the more elaborate seduction, but the number of rejections you get, and the pain that comes with those rejections, makes it way easier to just simply toss the line out there and hope the stars are aligned enough to get a nibble.



FrenchFry said:


> I don't know what you are trying to do to be more alpha.
> 
> But this:
> 
> ...





FrenchFry said:


> Here is the thing. If you have good communication patterns established, you don't have to switch genders to know what your SO is feeling.
> 
> It's not that men and women cannot understand each other. It's that you and your wife are not communicating with each other in a meaningful manner.


I just wanted to quote these two posts because they are great FrenchFry. Well said and they should be read again. Especially by CuddleBug.



CuddleBug said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I asked my wifee this morning, while we were hugging, why don't you like it when I kiss your neck? She tells me, she just doesn't like it. I tell her okay, but I'd love it.
> ...


If you are trying to get your wife in the mood, who gives a flying **** what you like? 

Worry about what she likes. If she doesn't like her butt grabbed, then she doesn't like her butt grabbed. You can't make her like it, and I'd imagine by now she's figured out you like yours grabbed.

You haven't listed one thing here she likes. 

How many of these friends are women btw?

You need to understand, you aren't trying to get into a man's heart. You are trying to get into your wife's pants, and you carry the attitude that she should want to get into your heart through sex.

Maybe she should, that's a whole nother debate in itself. Point is, perception is reality. If your wife is convinced that the sky is neon green, then in her world, the sky is neon green. 

When it comes to sex, your wife feels she doesn't have to give you the amount you want, that you don't need the amount of sex you are asking for, and in general she isn't turned on by you, your actions, your acts of service or most other things you do for her. It doesn't matter if you're 6'0, 230 lbs., are handsome, awesome, and all the other ways you've listed yourself as great. In her world, those things aren't turn ons (at least not enough of ones), therefore they don't amount to a hill of beans.

Get into her reality and give her what she needs to get turned on, while still respecting yourself.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I totally hear yah, thx.


What I've learned is:

It's fine for a woman to reject her man for whatever infinite reasons, it's okay because she's in her world. Doesn't matter if this happens for many years, men are supposed to take it. Try to push her buttons, do what she wants, try to figure her out, etc. take the rejections, but its okay because we aren't doing what she likes, wants, etc. Notice there is nothing about what her man wants and needs, but that's okay. It's all what she wants in the end.

Now reverse the roles. If a man did that to his woman all the time, what would honestly happen?? We all know.....

Your wifee should want to be with you, one of the reasons you got married in the first place. Is bait and switch acceptable? Is letting herself go, low sex drive, no effort, acceptable?

Really?!


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It doesn't sound like a bait and switch to me. It sounds like she's been as you describe since you got married (overweight, not very sexual, lazy), but you want her to change. That's probably not going to happen. 

And I don't think women or men - and there are plenty of men who withhold sex, just read these boards - should neglect their spouses sexually. Marriage is a sexual contract. But you also can't force someone to want to have sex with you or want to interact with you the way you want.

Bottom line is, don't marry someone expecting them to change. And be prepared to leave. If I were you I would try to communicate more, there are some good books, like The Five Love Languages and His Needs, Her Needs. But after a reasonable time, if there was no change, I'd leave.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I didn't marry her with the expectation she would drastically change.

I was fine with her size back then but since then, she's gained about the same weight as myself.

Sex drive has always been like it is now from the very beginning. I was thinking, it would get better over the years, hoping.....I was the one always wanting to try something new, spontaneous, crazy. She is more planned, certain day, time, in the bedroom.

I will give it a final serious try, cuddling every day, listen to her more about work, chores being done (doing them now), making more decisions, alpha thing, sometimes food on table after work, but not pressuring her for intimacy. A bet yah, once a month.......once in 5 weeks was the longest.

For myself, when I go that long with no sex, I just don't want it anymore at that point.

When she is actually in the mood, then we'll only have sex. I have to man up........

I could of had a friends with benefits situation with two young women in their 20's already. I didn't, ran away and not even chatting anymore, nothing. That should speak volumes but I guess that doesn't matter either. And then women wonder why men cheat? Really!?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I totally hear yah, thx.
> 
> 
> What I've learned is:
> ...


Role reversals don't work. They might work if your wife was a man...

Think of it like currency. You're an American dollar and your wife is Yen. $1 US doesn't equal one yen, just like your wife doesn't equal out evenly to you. The same principal applies your individual needs. Sex to her doesn't equal to the same high level as sex does to you. Conversely, talking on the phone to her sister is nearly worthless to you and yet very valuable to her.

You could benefit reading His Needs, Her Needs. If you read it already, read it again. You need to stop looking at her needs and your needs equally out. You want it to be that way, but it isn't. Deal with the reality of your situation. 

You think that men can't turn down women, but wmoen can turn down men and equate that to a double standard. The same would apply to cooking meals (in a typical home). If a man doesn't want to cook, no one says anything, but if the women never cooks, there's a constant stream of complaints. Why? Double standard you say? Not at all.

As an example, cooking has been traditional a women's role, and sex has been traditionally a male need. Just like men (typically) don't 'put out' in the kitchen as often as women do, women don't 'put out' sexually as often as men want.

It's not really a double standard, it is the reality of things.

The only thing I think you should have an issue with is your wife getting upset if you say no to sex. If she says no, then you should be able to as well, and not be grilled for a reason or made to feel ****ty. But that's it. Don't expect her to be in the mood as much as you, she likely never will be. Work with her on the issue, but don't expect her to just change into something she can't be.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> That I will try. Ask my wife more about her day at work. She can go on and on and on..........1 - 2 hours later..........then she feels great but I get all worked up, like a stress transfer from her to me.


Well that's kinda the point. Think of yourself as Morro Rock and her as the sea if it helps.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Okay I will try that.

How do you deal with hearing a woman's day and not letting it get to you? I'd go crazy.



I do the grocery shopping, buy treat meals, clean the kitchen, garbage, cat litter, recycling, dish washer maintenance, etc.......if I leave it, gets put off and piles up and then she complains, there's all this to do. I do some every day after work so it never piles up.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

It sounds like you married someone that is just not compatible with you in the sexual and affection areas. You said that she has always been lack of drive, but you still chose her. People cannot marry someone in hope that they could someday change and improve to better. A man cannot marry a woman in hope she will get more sexual, just like a woman cannot marry a man in hope that he will get more emotionally in tune. Incompatibility is incompatibility. You simply cannot project your own likes and then resent that she is not into what you are into.

The amount of effort doesn't necessarily equate to the amount of success. If no matter what, I can't figure out what my husband truly likes, then I can't really resent him for not being interested. What I can blame is rather lack of communication and/or compatibility.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I didn't marry her with the expectation she would drastically change.
> 
> I was fine with her size back then but since then, she's gained about the same weight as myself.
> 
> ...


You will give it a serious try but already say it'll fail... you talk about how awesome you are and could have banged a few 20 year olds...

You sound exceedingly self-centred, give your wife very little credit, and have provided little reasoning for why you are even still in this marriage, not to mention the fact you seem to have grasped minimial information from this thread which, in my opinion, has been of enormous clarity on female thoughts. I think your efforts to increase the sexual experience in your marriage, and your marriage itself, will fail based on the attitudes you have displayed in this thread, regardless of what your wife is doing to damage the relationship.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Hey CuddleBug, I can really relate to your situation.

My wife is also overweight with zero sex drive. She has been for the past 20 years. I cant change that no matter what I do.

I've done the same things as you. I cook, clean, laundry, work out, eat healthy, grocery shopping...probably all the things you do and at the end of the day...I usually don't get the affection/sex that I desire...

I KNEW THIS 20 YEARS AGO and I stayed with her....

I started the 180 and that has kinda worked for me. NO it didn't make her want to jump my bones whenever I wanted, It just made me feel better about myself.

The recent problem that happened was a female friend (friend) I used to have lunch with (because we worked in the same building and her business went under) called and wanted to do lunch to catch up....I didn't have lunch with her. It could really be just a friendly lunch...who knows...

Anyway, I didn't follow through on my 180. It was about a month without sex and my wife showed no sign of wanting any and I was soooo wanting something. I WASN'T A HAPPY night. We did have sex but it was pity sex and it wiped out the past 6 months of the 180.

My wife has zero sex drive and what I need to do is just accept it.

However while doing the 180, I drew hearts on the mirror in the morning along with XOXOXOXO TONIGHT!!!! When I did that, we usually had sex and I had the affection early in the evening...

My wife doesn't read my mind and I cant rad hers..Sometimes we have to spell it out even if it's on the mirror.

Try it!

Don't get angry like I do. I know my wife finds me even less attractive, even with all my recent muscles and washboard stomach.

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Okay I will try that.
> 
> How do you deal with hearing a woman's day and not letting it get to you? I'd go crazy.
> 
> ...


Then stop doing it.

Don't let it bother you if it piles up. There's only two of you in the house, so if it's your mess, clean it up. If it's not, don't touch it cause it's hers.

If HER stuff piles up, let it. Maybe it'll smack her in the face how lazy she is.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

See, if I wouldn't do the majority of the chores, they would all pile up and she would then complain, there's all these chores to do. Like I said, I do some every day, so there isn't anything to do and nothing piles up.

When I clean up my area, it's done that day. When she starts cleaning up her area, there are boxes and piles of crap and it grows and sits there, week, after week, month........

If it wasn't for me initiating all our upgrades, they would never be done or noticed.

Someone has to do these things and it obviously isn't her. Do I want to live in a crap hole? NO.

But when she actually does take the initiative, organize, clean up, etc. I am blown away, let her take the lead and compliment her on how awesome of a job she did. If she took more initiatives, getting things done, same effect.

The reason I told everyone I could have done some 20 year old's, but i chose not to is because that's cheating!!! I'm faithful is what that means.

Am I some hot guy? Hardly. Consider myself average. But what I looked like before and today, is drastic change, for health, confidence, longevity, strength, and this is all for her as well, or I could of done nothing, got fat and don't really want sex and always turn her down. My choice. Her choice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> On my wife's side, smart, kind, caring woman but hasn't taken care of herself, sex drive hasn't changed much, no fantasies are anything kinky, hasn't learned or done too much around here and she's comfy. If I had no sex drive, perfect marriage for us then.


So you married a women who you knew at the time has a low sex drive and now you are upset because she has a low sex drive? 


:scratchhead:


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> See, if I wouldn't do the majority of the chores, they would all pile up and she would then complain, there's all these chores to do.


So? Let her complain. It's her mess. Each time she complains, point it out to her too.



CuddleBug said:


> Like I said, I do some every day, so there isn't anything to do and nothing piles up.


Which is giving in to her. Stand up, clean up after yourself and when she *****es, tell her it's her own mess so stop complaining and clean up after yourself.



CuddleBug said:


> When I clean up my area, it's done that day. When she starts cleaning up her area, there are boxes and piles of crap and it grows and sits there, week, after week, month........


Once again, her problem....



CuddleBug said:


> If it wasn't for me initiating all our upgrades, they would never be done or noticed.


Then keep initating them. Heck, just go ahead and do them (unless they are major money items, or you've agreed to discuss them all before hand). If she's been leaving it up to you, just do them. Alpha male it.



CuddleBug said:


> Someone has to do these things and it obviously isn't her. Do I want to live in a crap hole? NO.


Then don't live in a crap hole. Clean up after yourself. There's likely rooms in the house where you frequent more than her. Go to those rooms more often and make them your area. They'll be tidy because she's not there very often or much at all. Let her live in the crap hole part of the house.



CuddleBug said:


> But when she actually does take the initiative, organize, clean up, etc. I am blown away, let her take the lead and compliment her on how awesome of a job she did. If she took more initiatives, getting things done, same effect.


Do you get a pat on the back when you clean? I assume not, so why does she? You're just reenorcing the bad behavoiur.



CuddleBug said:


> The reason I told everyone I could have done some 20 year old's, but i chose not to is because that's cheating!!! I'm faithful is what that means.


Did you tell her you could have done some 20 year olds? Because me and the rest of the posters on here really don't give two figs if you're faith or not (yes, we'll not be impressed but forget about it five minutes later too). The only one who really should care if you're faithful is your wife. Did you tell her about the 20-year-olds?



CuddleBug said:


> Am I some hot guy? Hardly. Consider myself average. But what I looked like before and today, is drastic change, for health, confidence, longevity, strength, and this is all for her as well, or I could of done nothing, got fat and don't really want sex and always turn her down. My choice. Her choice.


If you got in shape for her, that's pretty beta male. Tell her you did it for you, not for her, or she'll see right through your drastically changed body like she seen through your efforts last night.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug,

I'm a bit confused about somethings with your and your wife's work schedules.

You work 7-3, she works 9-5 (If I recall correctly)

How many days each week do each of you get off? It sounds to me like your wife gets only one day a week off. Is that right?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I work Monday thru Fridays, 6:30am to almost 4pm and sometimes later. Sat and Sun off


My wife works Sundays thru Thursdays, 6:30am to almost 5pm and sometimes later because she has to drive further. Fri and Sat off.

Saturday is our only day together besides after work and maybe some cuddling, etc.



I have never nor will i ever tell her I could of slept with other hot women, 20's, etc. Stupid if I told her that. Some things are meant to be not talked about.

When I do a lot around here, she notices, appreciated it but no pat on the back, true.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Lyris said:


> It doesn't sound like a bait and switch to me. It sounds like she's been as you describe since you got married (overweight, not very sexual, lazy), but you want her to change. That's probably not going to happen.
> 
> And I don't think women or men - and there are plenty of men who withhold sex, just read these boards - should neglect their spouses sexually. Marriage is a sexual contract. But you also can't force someone to want to have sex with you or want to interact with you the way you want.
> 
> Bottom line is, don't marry someone expecting them to change. And be prepared to leave. If I were you I would try to communicate more, there are some good books, like The Five Love Languages and His Needs, Her Needs. But after a reasonable time, if there was no change, I'd leave.


Exactly.

You are trying to save her. You have your own stuff to work on. Dude, you kow this "dance" & im sure youve been doing this dance your whole marriage.....you can not fix her


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm glad you're going to read the books. 

I am worried from reading this thread, that you may not go into this with the right attitude.

This is something I keep in mind all the time when trying to make sense of my behaviors and feelings and the behaviors/feelings of others:

*People are: Half-Animal/Half-Human*

In human sexuality: 

Men's "animal-side" is always ON...that's why they're able to lust after and sleep with women they don't really care about. Their "human-side" gets turned on when they fall in love with that _one special woman._ And then, sex becomes an expressing of human love and an out-pouring of animal desire simultaneously.

Women's "human-side" of love is always turned ON. This is because women need to have the capacity for a great deal of "non-sexual" love to be motivated to raise their children (i.e. not abandon them in the wild). Their "animal-side" of love is much more mercurial. 

Once they have children it can completely shut down, for as far as nature's concerned it's become unnecessary. And many wives claim to have to no sexual desire at all. However, it can be regained by husband who's willing to manipulate the “factors of attraction"...or sadly, sometimes it's rediscovered when a new man comes into the picture.

And in one word the key driver of attraction in women is: *POWER*

Use the animal kingdom as a reference point (especially the social animals) and the evidence for*POWER*quickly mounts:

The lioness mates with the lion that has gained control of the pride.

The strongest rams get to mate with the females.

Eighty-year-old men millionaires marry 23 year-old models…_and do we realize when we say*“she married him for the money”*that**money is nothing more than the “power” that drives human society*?_

Women, being quite weaker physically than men, have an instinctual need to seek out the strongest male…to protect them and their children.

All of this animal behavior gets muddled in complex human society...but it never goes away...it drives everything we do.

The institution of marriage confuses things for us as well, because it is founded upon our noblest *human* ideals…the best we aspire to be…but tends to founder somewhat when forced to mingle with *unflattering animal realities* like: 

_Romantic love is not unconditional. 

People get bored of each other.

People all need to*“get something”*out of a relationship _

So while the human-side of you will never recognize this as fair...hopefully it'll recognize that “fairness” is not an animal-kingdom/animal-side concept..._and that's the part of your wife that you're trying to entice._


Also know, Mother Nature won't let you cheat her system. Ever.

At some point, to be successful your underlying motive for making behavioral changes can't be based on sex. If that “energy” still tinges your attitude...the “animal-side” of your wife will see through you from thirty miles away.

So your behavioral change must reflect an inner-change in your confidence, resolve and perspective: it really has everything to do with Becoming Whole in and of Yourself....and a _by-product_ of that will involve never looking at sex has something your wife “grudgingly grants you”.

You have to embrace the notion that this is not your wife's fault, this is not her problem. This is ALL ABOUT YOU and a transformation YOU MUST MAKE.

Not an easy shift to make...no worthwhile change ever is...but when you genuinely embrace that concept...and stop being resentful of her...stop seeing this as something that has anything to do with her...you'll have made huge leap in the right direction.

And so, somewhat ironically:

*Nature will reward you with sex, when you no longer need/see sex as a reward*, and when the whole process of change has become something far more significant to you than a way to increase the amount of it you have. 

Obviously, none of this will happen over-night: so one of the keys to changing will involve* acting a certain way regardless of what you feel on the inside* (this is a very difficult thing for many of us to do---it's a skill you practice though---you can get better at it)

Mem11363 has some great posts on this stuff. He admits he doesn't say ILY or kiss his wife as frequently _as he actually feels the urge to_...and should his wife say or do something hurtful, *he doesn't give her emotional reactions.* And his wife stays attracted to him. (also, I'd read through Thunderstruck's posts).

That's all about adhering to a code of conduct irrespective of your feelings. Hopefully those other books will give you more “behaviors” to adopt regardless of what you feel. And eventually the behavior changes will translate into an inner-change

Many people on this board will be happy to help you. So if, as you read through the books, you share your thoughts on your reading (i.e. you said a lot of nmmng didn't apply to you: so what applied and what didn't?)...

Also sharing some of you daily interactions with your wife will be helpful (just like you're doing now)...(and share how you changed your behavior and how she responded for _better or worse_)

Do that and you can probably get some insight that will get you to your goal faster

Good Luck


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## RavenWolf (Dec 22, 2012)

My husband does a lot of these things for me as well to lighten my stress and show me he loves me. He also will sometimes say something sexual to me which then makes me think it was all for sex and not because he really wanted to help me. It kills the acts of kindness you worked so hard to do for her. 

I feel that if you did those things for her and then offered to give her a nice massage after her bath, things may have went better. Certainly the odds may have been more in your favor. My husband used to do that, and then play Enya while giving me a massage and one thing would lead to another...but of course that was before all the drama we had. 

Are their activities she used to do before you got married that she gave up once she was married? For example, I LOVE to dance! Was on a country line dancing team and everything. I danced for hours every week. My husband will not dance, so I gave it up. Haven't been in years and I miss it something terrible. Perhaps she gave up something she loved as well, and has a hard time dealing or has underlying resentment?

Does she have any health issues that could be a problem for her?

On Saturdays, do y'all ever go out? With our two kids always with us and no one to sit for us, we never get any alone time. My kids are gone for the week and hubby and I had a date night last night, first in a very, very long time. I actually enjoyed him holding hands with me and kissing my shoulder/hair and then snuggling with me last night. Dinner and a movie was something unusual for us, and it was a bit freeing.

Perhaps take her to a movie she really wants to see, take her for a walk in a beautiful park or somewhere she hasn't been. (I'm secretly hoping to do that tomorrow myself!) That way, she would be getting exercise in a beautiful, stress reducing environment. From my posts, you know that I struggle with weight as well. I personally can't go to the gym because I can't handle being around people I don't know by myself, and treadmills and such are BORING! I need to be out in nature to enjoy it and succeed at my workout. Maybe she is similar to me in that regard?

Hope that helps in some way.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I work Monday thru Fridays, 6:30am to almost 4pm and sometimes later. Sat and Sun off
> 
> 
> My wife works Sundays thru Thursdays, 6:30am to almost 5pm and sometimes later because she has to drive further. Fri and Sat off.
> ...


You never did address my issues with you directly when I asked you about your work hours. I had to make an assumption and I was largely correct. In reality, your current relationship is defined as you two living together as roommates and you provide the maid service for your dwelling. Your big problem is that you are passive and allow your wife to stay as she is. 

I assume you are regularly weight training at a gym - at least 3 days/week and I'll guess you are on a 4 or even 5 day training schedule that you picked up from your bodybuilder friend. So tell me, how many of those times after your work day is over do you head off straight to the gym while your wife comes home to an empty house to eat dinner by herself? I would wager that this happens regularly. When you include the drive home (or straight to the gym after work), probably are doing a 1.5 - 2 hour routine (assumed since you gained 60 lbs of muscle so you're hitting the weights hard), possibly doing some socializing with the guys, shower and drive back home you are probably rolling in after 7 pm. In the meantime, your wife - who has never learned how to take care of her health throughout her life - is sitting at home alone making who knows what for dinner and she is unwinding doing her own thing. Since she's probably vegging out in front of the TV, your intimacy ends up being that you come home, say your hellos and snuggle up next to her on the couch. Then it's time for bed. Did I nail your Mon - Fri routine?

So here is what you know so far: 1) You know that your wife is overweight and that it affects her physical health and her mental/emotional health due to low self-esteem issues. She may be lazy simply because she is depressed because she feels little self worth. 2) You two are not spending a lot of time together, and I think a significant reason why is because either you or her are making yourself scarce. My assumption right now is that it is you who are not being available in the evenings (at least the early evenings) which has resulted in the dynamic of you two doing your own things on most nights. 3) You have taken the vast majority of the household duties upon yourself and have left basically nothing for your wife to do at home. The problem with this is two-fold because IMHO this reinforces in your wife's mind the idea of her having little value to the household and it also results in you building resentment against your wife while you "suffer in silence" doing all these chores.

My solutions to you are still the same. You need to start making yourself available regularly on work nights. There is little reason why you two cannot share meals together. I find it highly odd that you two don't eat dinner together and frankly, I find it rather disturbing. I also think you are losing out on golden opportunities to not only share a healthy meal together on most evenings but you two can then get into a great exercise routine together after dinner. You think I'm full of it that I recommended to you that you need to tackle her weight issue head on and that it will solve a number of your other problems. What you fail to recognize is that the approach I tried to give you will not only attack her physical problem but it will also attack your intimacy together as well. When you share meals together and you do things together, you'll rebuild those bonds that have been severed because the two of you are doing your own things. Then the intimacy will begin to grow within your marriage and as she loses weight plus feels the deeper connection with you by spending more time together - I predict the fireworks will come.

Just a guess on my part, but I'm betting that your bodybuilding is one of your problems for the marriage.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> I totally hear yah, thx.
> 
> 
> What I've learned is:
> ...


The exact reason you are having a non sexual marriage is becuase you buy into this.

If you are not confident enough to act like the woman in your above scenario, then how can you possibly expect your wife to be sexually attracted to you?

Your are describing the exact path to a sexual marriage. Just reverse it. Be the man who gives a consequence if the marriage is not functioning on YOUR TERMS.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

It was very nice what you did. It was nasty of her to ignore you, not say something nice. She was not obligated to have sex and she can get a quick meal together with mac and cheese she's tired. When she rejected a loving gesture, I would have it handled it differently. Consider trying this again. 

If she continued to be nasty, do not discuss this or iniitiate any loving gestures. The next day, be distant, limit conversations. Make a point to be out, and then go out again. If she asks if anything is wrong, say nothing, and if she tries to initiate any loving, say you are not in the mood. 

Have a fight, ventilate these issues, but do it, when she has a reason to do it. 

You have to tread very lightly on weight and diet.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

Bobby5000 said:


> It was very nice what you did. It was nasty of her to ignore you, not say something nice. She was not obligated to have sex and she can get a quick meal together with mac and cheese she's tired. When she rejected a loving gesture, I would have it handled it differently. Consider trying this again


He did it expecting things to go his way. He did it intending that things would end up with oral sex for his wife, which was not what her wife was interested but what he was interested in doing. It was not truly selfless.



Bobby5000 said:


> If she continued to be nasty, do not discuss this or iniitiate any loving gestures. The next day, be distant, limit conversations. Make a point to be out, and then go out again. If she asks if anything is wrong, say nothing, and if she tries to initiate any loving, say you are not in the mood.


Passive aggressive way? Revenge? Silent treatment? A really bad move, whether a man or a woman does it. Usually, it only worsens the situation, makes the other person even more defensive. If you trul want to solve an issue, express your feelings and what you truly want, with all the honesty and not blaming or anger. If you can't talk without anger, cool down before talking. Only by talking honestly and calmly that the other person can begin to see your perspective. Although of course, if in the end your partner truly cares or not would be another story, but if you are not open to truly solve the problem, you probably won' be able to do it.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

When I get home from work, I do some chores and have a nap on the couch. My wife gets home and if she wishes it, we cuddle for an hour before she gets up, makes food for her work the next day. When we gets wraps and subs, etc., we always eat together. When I buy treat meals, I get out the tv tray racks and we eat together and I select tv shows we both would like to watch.

I weight train because I was a very weak and super skinny guy when we got married. Not much of a man and with thick coke bottle glasses. I always wanted to get big and strong and lose the glasses, so I did just that. No one needed to push me or hold my hand.

Money is not an issue for us. We have a lot and the only debt is our mortgage and that's paid off in 6 years from now.

If I try this again, I will not mention going down on her later, only a nice body rub, since sex isn't very important to her.

Th next evening, I went to M&M meats and bought enough food to last us for a few days. Surprised her. I bought foods more that she would like too. She tells me, you bought all that for yourself!!! I said, yes I eat a a lot, but notice I bought enough for two people, two deserts, you get the idea. She ate some and was happy and later when had sex. I wanted to give her oral first, NOPE, maybe tomorrow. So I thought of others things to last as long as I could, about 10 minutes. She does like CAT and doggie (legs tight together) but only oral gets her to orgasm, which she likes but fights it at the same time.....

I asked her why don't you like it when I kiss/lick your neck. She tells me she just doesn't like it but she loves to passionately kiss and lick my neck. I asked her, don't you like to just kiss passionately? She says no, she doesn't like tongue or saliva, basically dry kisses. She knows I love tongue and passionate kisses, so she'll do that for me at times.

Do I have big fights with her? No.

If it wasn't for the sex issues, our marriage would be great but you can't have it all.

I like to rub her feet, she sorta likes it but is weirded out somewhat.

Much of the sexual positions I would love to do with her we can't because of her size and since she is a bigger woman, a lot of the time, I can't get it in her much, hence, Missionary, Doggie or maybe spoon, that's it. Even spoon I have problems getting it in her. This may sound odd, but I measured myself and I'm about 6 3/4 inches. Maybe I need a 8- 9 inch dildo for her?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

The OP reads like nice guy syndrome 101, covert contract and all. I just finished reading the book No More Mr Nice Guy and it was very eye opening. What the OP needs to realize is this, his wife and him do not have the same likes and dislikes. They are 2 different people with 2 different backgrounds who happen to be married. The Op sounds angry that all that hard work didn't get him anything but hurt feelings. He set his wife up for failure imo.

His wife is not interested in sex with him. Bottom line. Therefore, he probably feels that he can't approach her directly with his plans for a romantic night. So he does the "covert contract" approach hoping to get his needs met. But he disguises it as a "night for wifey".

It reminds me when I wanted to go to the spa to get a mani/pedi, but I knew that hubby would complain that it would cost too much money. So, I waited until Father's Day to give him a gift of a mani/pedi spa package for 2. I wrote on the card, "Romantic evening for just the 2 of us." He did end up enjoying it. But, he would have enjoyed an evening out to a jazz club and dinner better. Along with some nice evening massage done by me. Point is this, I got what I wanted while presenting it as a gift to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I agree we are two totally different people, so very true.

When my wife gets her hair cut / dyed, do I want or expect sex later? NO.

When I buy her food treats, do I want or expect sex later? NO.

If I planned a romantic evening for her, which doesn't happen every week, it would be nice if she was pleasantly surprised, relaxed and enjoyed the evening. When she does this for me, I never reject her or make excuses and I also work a full time job, so no excuse there either.

When my wife buys us subs or wraps, do I expect or want sex later? NO.

Marriage is supposed to be a 50/50 compromise. Not cater to her, do what she wants, read books, jump through hoops, be rejected, only get intimacy when she is in the mood and only what she wants to try, etc.......this is not marriage, it's what she wants and it's also old fashioned and old school, like my parents time.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

However, the title of this thread is "why do I even bother anymore". Then you describe a day of you preparing a night for your wife to enjoy, then you get angry when she doesn't show appreciation in the way you wanted. The results of the evening were not pleasant for you, which is why you posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

"why even bother anymore".......meaning, why should I plan an evening(s), to be shut down but if she planned an evening, I'm happy, regardless if I worked all day? Being more alpha, learned from this forum, marriage is 50/50 or there's the door. When I initiate intimacy, she can usually not be in the mood but if I ever did that.......big mistake. No more, 50/50 or there's the door.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Ostera said:


> Ask your wife what she want from you right now.
> 
> If she says I don't know or other vague things i would consider moving on. Why spend the rest of your life trying to get the compassion that you seem to desire, but aren't.


Love this advice!!

Caveat: sometimes women fall into a trap of getting their needs met yet still not being motivated to do for their husbands.

You should do what she wants for a limited period of time to show your commitment. If she still isn't reaching out to you, you need to modify your approach to ask your wife what she wants from you _that will make her feel good about meeting your needs in return_. There again, if you are told "I don't know" or "nothing", then you know she simply is not interested in meeting your needs under any circumstances, and you can act accordingly.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Marriage is supposed to be a 50/50 compromise. Not cater to her, do what she wants, read books, jump through hoops, be rejected, only get intimacy when she is in the mood and only what she wants to try, etc.......this is not marriage, it's what she wants and it's also old fashioned and old school, like my parents time.


Also, you are jumping through hoops and using "covert contracts" to get your needs met. Which never work. The only thing you need to do is improve yourself, find satisfaction with yourself. Never mind about how she reacts to everything. The definition of insantity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


It is obvious that you are deprived of sex and frustrated. It is not fair to make generalizations about women because you are frustrated with your wife. We are trying to give you valuable insight into how your wife interpreted your "romantic evening". She saw it as another attempt by you to get sex that she didn't want, it didn't make her happy. Oral sex, bath and a massage is not what she wanted. She wanted mac and cheese, maybe you didn't but she did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

From what I've read, there are many women here in the same situation as myself, so not all women are like my wife, very true.

If there was a way for HD men and women to only get married and LD men and women to only get married, imagine the almost non existent divorce rate. Someone has to research this......

Yes I am physically and sexually starved, correct.

I'm still talking with her and trying to find out what she'd like to try and what drives her wild. She doesn't know.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

> When I get home from work, I do some chores and have a nap on the couch. My wife gets home and if she wishes it, we cuddle for an hour before she gets up, makes food for her work the next day. *When we gets wraps and subs, etc., we always eat together. When I buy treat meals, I get out the tv tray racks and we eat together and I select tv shows we both would like to watch.*


I'm still not clear on how much you two are spending time together. So you two eat together when you get wraps/subs or when you get treat meals. Is that once a week, twice a week or all the time? I get the feeling that your typical night involves you two fending for yourselves when it comes to dinner. Again, I think you are losing out on a golden opportunity of improving the marital relationship by not cooking together and not preparing your lunches for the following day together. Aside from spending time together, you can also help ensure that your wife is eating more healthy foods - which will help with her health.



> I weight train because I was a very weak and super skinny guy when we got married. Not much of a man and with thick coke bottle glasses. I always wanted to get big and strong and lose the glasses, so I did just that. No one needed to push me or hold my hand.


I didn't mean to rake you over the coals about your weight training. I'm glad you were able to improve your self esteem. What I suggest to you is that you refocus this time for the both of you to get into an exercise program together. She needs help, you can offer her the help and you get to bond with her again.



> Th next evening, I went to M&M meats and bought enough food to last us for a few days. Surprised her. I bought foods more that she would like too. She tells me, you bought all that for yourself!!! I said, yes I eat a a lot, but notice I bought enough for two people, two deserts, you get the idea. She ate some and was happy and later when had sex.


Why don't the two of you grocery shop together? Again, it's another chance for the two of you to spend together bonding and at the same time you can help her to understand better good habits for purchasing healthy foods. 

I don't get why you are not looking at this more closely. If you think I am full of it and that my suggestions suck, just let me know and I won't bother you again. All I am trying to do is to help you out if I can. If you don't want it, just say so and I'll stop wasting my time typing all of this info out to you.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

OP, first, you chose to stay with a woman with LD, then you are not happy coz her sexual preferences are not compatible with yours.
Second, you prepared the evening according to what you thought she would like and with the expectations of ending it with oral sex for her. And then you are not happy when your wife was not interested on that.

Many people, including men here already told you where you 
failed and are failing at. It's up to you to analyze what you are doing wrong or continuing victimizing yourself as the nice guy.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS, really good advice and I mean that, thx.


My wife and I eat together quite often and cuddle almost every day after work "together". I don't expect sex.

The reason we don't grocery shop together, is because she works at that grocery store and has recently been promoted to head office, running the managers of those grocery stores. Last thing she wants to do is grocery shop, see?

I will ask her if there are any movies she would like to see? go out for a nice lunch beforehand, you get the idea. Saturday is her only day to also do what she wants, so sometimes she goes out with a girlfriend of hers, shopping together, girl stuff and she really enjoys that. I'm sure many women would love to spend half a day with their best girlfriend, doing girl stuff instead of shopping with the husband, correct?

After she gets back, I'm ordering PPV UFC "Ultimate Fighting Championship", she likes that and we will eat the M&M food together, cuddle on the couch and watch the PPV. Half of the day with her girlfriend and the other half with me. Not a bad day? I will ask her how her day was with her girlfriend.

I will be asking her more and more, what does she really like? Think about it wifee......she already knows what I like, but marriage is 50/50, I want to know what she likes and would drive her crazy, even if she has to really think about it because she's never done that before, with me or before we got married. She still doesn't really know and gets uncomfortable when I ask.

I am complimenting her on the outfits she wears and no, I'm not trying to get sex. She likes that and I will continue to be physical with her, helps her get over the insecurities.

I was thinking, getting her a treadmill. She could start in our place and then go from there. But she has in the past, told me, I want to get in shape, so she starts at a women's only gym, has a trainer, then a few months later, quits because she's not getting the results.


She has told me, she has to stop doing everything for everyone and put herself first. I totally agree. She has to do the gym thing, herself first, then me and her family afterwards. Until she starts putting herself first, nothing will change and she knows it. She's told me, she needs to find hobbies, but never spends the time to find out what she's really like to do. So she reads books and talks on the phone and uses her laptop.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> I'm still talking with her and trying to find out what she'd like to try and what drives her wild. She doesn't know.


Personally, I call bullsh!t when anyone says they don't know what they like or want. It's almost certain that she knows but does not want to tell you because:

1) She does not think you will come through for her, and/or
2) She does not like you enough to reciprocate - ever, and/or
3) She knows her wants reflect badly on her (i.e. she's pissed off because you can't afford the lifestyle she wants) and/or
4) She thinks she is entitled to the current arrangement, and/or
5) She resents that your sexual satisfaction is a criterion upon which you evaluate her worth as a wife
6) Etc.

Cuddlebug:

You have gotten great advice on this thread. We get that you are frustrated by your exertion seemingly without benefit. And, no one is saying that your needs are unreasonable or that you need to live your life in thrall to your wife.

Also, her expectations may be unreasonable or impossible to meet. It is said "no matter how hot a woman is, there is a guy who's tired of f*cking her". That is true of women too. You could be a doting millionaire underwear model and still be found lacking the "X-factor". It's best you understand that basic truth.

It seems like you've probably done many different things to woo your wife, including some of what's been suggested here, and that's why you're so frustrated. The good thing is, the way you handle her lack of interest is the same, regardless of the cause:

1) Make the self-improvements you want. It will seem genuine and not manipulative. Most likely, they are things women generally find attractive anyways. And they remain with you no matter what path your life takes.

2) Don't do things that upset her. She resents you approaching her for sex - so stop it. Don't suck on her neck or grab her ass.

3) Do your share around the house and what's necessary to meet her minimum basic needs. For instance, if she does not work, continue to pay the mortgage and other bills. Refusing to buy groceries is inappropriate. OTOH, taking her shopping for a new spring wardrobe also is inappropriate at this time.

4) Use positive and negative reinforcement (which is different than punishment) appropriately. If she treats you well, let your words and actions reflect this. If she treats you badly, calmly but strongly refuse to tolerate it, and move on.

Do not be punitive (that is, taking overt action against her) unless she escalates the situation. So, if you notice money missing or find out she's planning to clean you out and file for divorce, then of course you need to protect yourself and cutting her off would be appropriate. Otherwise do not punish.

5) If she opens up and tells you what would work for her, give it a shot if reasonable. Caveat: telling you she wants something doesn't mean it really works for her or she will be motivated to reciprocate. Start slow and ramp up depending on her response.

The ultimate goal is to change you and let her worry about her. You need to improve you and let her worry about getting to a place where she strives to be better to you or steps aside. The change needs to come from inside her (emotional buy-in) to last.

The journey involves three aspects. The first is showing her you care about and want her as a person, yet you are fine without her. The second is showing her she has much to lose by you. The third is to give yourself the space to work on yourself and not be resentful from her lack of attention to you. Pulling back from her while still doing your part and maintaining the home accomplishes all these simultaneously.

Know that you don't have to do these indefinitely. IIRC, Dr. Glover (the author of NMMNG) recommends a six-month trial. At that time, if she's still not meeting your need (or at least well on the way to getting there), you'll pretty much know that you are getting about as much as you ever will and act accordingly.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

When my wife gets home later, I will apply everything you all have said in this post. I'll let everyone know tomorrow how the evening went and no, it won't be about sex. 

I already read the no more Mr. nice guy, informative, not bad, a lot is common sense, but not bad. Am doing the MAP.

I will try giving myself more space, do my own thing and see how that goes. 

I will seriously try tonight and see what happens. 

I will stop the occasional neck kissing and ass grabbing but wouldn't that help get her out of her comfy zone? She's starting to like it and open up. If I stop this altogether, she won't change, thus no exploring and trying new things?!

Money isn't a problem for us. We both have our bank accounts, credit cards but are joint spousal, so we're never fighting about money. Bills are 50/50 based on our incomes and we make close to the same, but the wife gets big work bonuses now and recently got that head office promotion, so it's more 55 her / 45 me now.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

DTO said:


> *Personally, I call bullsh!t when anyone says they don't know what they like or want. It's almost certain that she knows but does not want to tell you because:
> 
> 1) She does not think you will come through for her, and/or
> 2) She does not like you enough to reciprocate - ever, and/or
> ...


I like this post, very insightful, especially the bolded part. CBug keeps asking his wife what she likes and she never responds. As a matter of fact, she never even responded before they were married. Also, she was never a sexual person and she knows that CBug wants a satisfying relationship. I feel that she will never divulge this information for the reasons you mentioned including the following:

1. She is not a sexual person, so she does not have sexual things that she prefers. It is like asking a vegetarian which meats do you like (beef, chicken, lamb or veal, etc.) They won't have a favorite because they don't eat meat in the first place. Imagine a vegetarian married to a meat eater. The meat eater knew that he married a vegetarian in the first place but he figures that with his excellent culinary skills he can get her to eat meat. The vegetarian avoids the issue when the meat eater asks, "What can I do to get you to eat meat and enjoy it?" However, the meat eater is successful in getting the vegetarian to taste some meat, she does it for his benefit to make him happy and she does not enjoy it for herself.

Now, let's take this analogy and apply it to CBug's marriage. She knows that he loves sex and wants to get her to enjoy it too. She may see his constant questioning of "What do you enjoy" to mean "what can I do to get you to love sex as much as I do? How can I make you into the wife I want? I am dissatisfied with you and I want to change you, even though you are the same as I married you."

This is no bait and switch. This is a story of a man who married a lady knowing that she was not that sexual hoping that he could change her. And she doesn't like it because that means that he is not accepting her as she is. This probably adds to her depression and weight gain. I hate to sound drab, but I am going through a similar situation and this hits home for me.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

CudleBug, make a list of all the reasons you are electing to stay with your wife. If all of them are financial or have to do with the house the two of you share as a "home", then if you are the only one to initiate closeness in the relationship, she will be the very last thing you miss should you decide that it isn't enough.
Spend all your time doing for her and she will get used to wiping her shoes off on you.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's a re-cap of last night as promised.


My wife got home and I asked her how her time was with the girlfriend. She said they had a good time and that her girlfriend is pregnant. I said awesome, congrats. My wife showed me what she bought and since she is very frugal, saved a a lot of money and got some great deals. I told her awesome and the items look great. She is happy. Asks me if she can put the food in the oven for the PPV? Sure I said and then a bit later, I ordered the PPV. We cuddled on the couch until the food was ready (1.5 hours) and I asked her in detail how her afternoon really was. She told me in detail (I really listened) and later she asked me, why are you being so nice? I told her, I'm trying to be a better, more loving hubby. She liked that!!! We then eat together, watching the PPV, desert together, talking and had a fun night. I even rubbed her feet a bit but at that point we were both full and she was cuddled out. We had a really good evening. I put away all the Christmas decorations and ran/unloaded the dishwasher and all the bills are paid as of this morning. My wife works today and it will be a long day because it's half in our city and the other half in the other city, so she'll probably get back by 7pm, and be very tired. She told me, no more eating out so much (she's very frugal) but I will have some healthy wraps for her when she gets home.




Pro of my wife:

- loving, caring
- faithful
- frugal
- works full time job
- smart
- meal treats
- really good woman
- would be a great mother, if we had kids


Cons of my wife:

- doesn't take care of herself
- low sex drive
- doesn't initiate sex
- doesn't dress sexy or do kinky things most women would do


But I'm happy about last evening more than anything right now.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

MrAvg said:


> Why, cause our wives tell us they are to tired for sex because they have to do many of the things he did that day to open up her time. This is his hope with extra time she might want to spend it with him. Sadly she flubbed it and left him not likely to repeat his efforts. A little time on her part would have been positive reinforcement.


I think that downfall69 meant that the OP expected his wife to be sexual, which she was not since the very beginning. It's a very bad idea to marry someone that does not satisfy our chore needs, but then expect him/her to change after marriage.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

The map is interesting I will say that. Things I did without realizing it, have now been corrected. When the wife asks me, what do you want when I go out to get us something to eat? I will tell her exactly what I want. I only get her flowers, randomly, for no reason and never because of trying to get sex, a fight, etc. I am no longer as passive (Beta) as I was before. I'm not a jerk, but I am more decisive and leading compared to before. Seems to be working from what I can tell, nothing drastic, but we'll see as I continue to read........"it may just come down to this, larger woman, low sex drive and esteem because of that and nothing more". I will no longer ask for sex either, that will be a toughie but I'm doing that now.

Finished reading the MAP. A lot of it is common sense, some things I've learned and changed now but much of it is my wife. *If I snuck in the shower and told her, I think you need company, she would freak and "get out". I will try this one weekend, day she doesn't work and see what actually happens, but I doubt she would be pleasantly surprised. If I talked dirty to her, she doesn't like that, she's never talked dirty. I like to kiss/lick her neck, she doesn't like that either but does it to me. She doesn't like passionate kisses, only dry kisses. No saliva or tongue. She never wears anything sexy, kinky or is naughty because she is a big girl and insecure. Short of her taking care of herself, getting in shape, losing weight, then she can wear those clothes she's always wanted to wear and then she would be in the mood much more and even take the initiative, there is nothing I can really do. MAP is great overall and a good $9 - $11 spent but it only goes so far.*


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> The map is interesting I will say that. Things I did without realizing it, have now been corrected. When the wife asks me, what do you want when I go out to get us something to eat? I will tell her exactly what I want. I only get her flowers, randomly, for no reason and never because of trying to get sex, a fight, etc. I am no longer as passive (Beta) as I was before. I'm not a jerk, but I am more decisive and leading compared to before. Seems to be working from what I can tell, nothing drastic, but we'll see as I continue to read........*"it may just come down to this, larger woman, low sex drive and esteem because of that and nothing more".* I will no longer ask for sex either, that will be a toughie but I'm doing that now.


Yep...


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

See, I am getting it..........heh.


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

I hope the Map things works for you.

I still think your wife knows you are going to take whatever she gives you and you will be happy for the crumbs and just take it since you will not leave.The thing I have read in other forums that has worked is when you show the person the divorce papers and they know you are serious.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

CuddleBug..
Before you started to work out and build muscles, how was your sex drive?

With me, when I was young and in the military, I had a strong sex drive because I worked out a lot and was very active. Plus the GF’s I had back then was also HD so it all worked out.

After the military, I met my wife who was overweight and lazy. At 25, she was a virgin and without a doubt, was LD. I We spent most of the time going to see a movie, eating a tub of pop corn and soda along with a blizzard from DQ afterwards. We did that every week. Being that I was no longer working out and was with a LD person, My Sex drive plummeted. She didn’t expect ANYTHING out of me, just my time. I liked that.

THEN 17 or so years later, although I tried to stay in shape, I hit my MLC, and started to work out very hard and my sex drive increased to better that it was in my 20’s. MY POOR WIFE…
Sex 4 times a month was fine for her back then, but now I want it 4 or more times a WEEK…I realize now from reading your thread is that I expect her to change along with my changes and that isn’t possible.

My wife seems similar to your wife. I had to let her know exactly what I wanted. It was stupid, but I told her I was thinking about moving in with a friend because of the lack of love/intimacy /affection/sex. I know she is trying harder in that department. My wife has zero sex drive because she is overweight an inactive. I can't change her. All I can do is let her know what I want. 

Read about the 180, if you havent already


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

My sex drive was high as far as I can remember, early teens. I even remember my first time in my bed (early teens) and from that point, it was bad, parents magazine (models in underwear, swim ware, etc.), adult movies at friends places and even internet porn when internet started to become mainstream (in the late 1980's to early 1990's). Sometimes I would relieve myself 3 - 4x a day or sometimes only once every day but it was bad!!! Now I can control myself much better but the high drive is still there. The more I view it, relieve myself, the more I want it. The less I do it, the less I want it.

I married my wife at age 20 and she was still a virgin, big girl with low self esteem and low drive. I was her first and instead of her letting it all go after we got married, nothing really changed. We fought about her low sex drive many times, too many too count but I never said to her, lose the weight you're fat, never. I was 25 by the way. If I left the sex up to her, sometimes she would wait 4 - 5 weeks and we were newly weds. Of course, at that point, we didn't talk much and had more of a room mate relationship and she wonders why???? DUH!!!!

I was always a very skinny guy with thick glasses, a nerd. So I started weight training and didn't really gain any muscle mass, strength or size until my early 30's. I had that high of a metabolism. I am a late bloomer, meaning when most guys who are 40 look bad and old, I look like 30 and have a sex drive of a 20 something year old. That's why I've had women in their 20's interested to hook up, friend with benefits, etc.

I will read about the 180, since the MAP and No more Mr. Nice guy were common sense to me with minimal benefits.

I really don't want to hit my wife with, get in shape, get a sex drive or I want a divorce. That would screw her up badly!!!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Last night, I tried again, applying what I've learned and the MAP.

Before my wife got home, she called and asked me, should she get us anything to eat? I told her, no, we have enough food. She said okay and came home. But I already had her fav healthy wrap ready on a tv tray and we watched tv together and chatted about her day. Then she complains she has to do the laundry. I went upstairs and helped her without asking if she wanted help. We loaded the laundry and hit start in 30 seconds........why all the complaining then? I go downstairs and put in apple pie. She decides to call her parents and sis and talk for 1+ hours again and then surf the net on her laptop (30 min). I am downstairs wanting to cuddle with her on the couch, talk more about her day and eat pie. She knows I'm getting mad about always talking to her parents and sis every day for 1 - 2 hours. We cuddled later but she knew I'm not happy. I didn't mention or ask her for sex.......guess what? No sex for that night either. See, if I don't press for sex, she doesn't initiate and it's more like 1 - 2 times a month which is a joke. This doesn't make her want sex more, just the opposite, more comfy, happier and me "catering" to her more!!! So if I'm a jerk, she is in the mood more. If I'm nicer, sex is less. That's messed up!!!


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Last night, I tried again, applying what I've learned and the MAP.
> 
> Before my wife got home, she called and asked me, should she get us anything to eat? I told her, no, we have enough food. She said okay and came home. But I already had her fav healthy wrap ready on a tv tray and we watched tv together and chatted about her day. Then she complains she has to do the laundry. I went upstairs and helped her without asking if she wanted help. We loaded the laundry and hit start in 30 seconds........why all the complaining then? I go downstairs and put in apple pie. She decides to call her parents and sis and talk for 1+ hours again and then surf the net on her laptop (30 min). I am downstairs wanting to cuddle with her on the couch, talk more about her day and eat pie. She knows I'm getting mad about always talking to her parents and sis every day for 1 - 2 hours. We cuddled later but she knew I'm not happy. I didn't mention or ask her for sex.......guess what? No sex for that night either. See, if I don't press for sex, she doesn't initiate and it's more like 1 - 2 times a month which is a joke. This doesn't make her want sex more, just the opposite, more comfy, happier and me "catering" to her more!!! So if I'm a jerk, she is in the mood more. If I'm nicer, sex is less. That's messed up!!!


I am not well versed in MMSL or how to run the MAP, but it looks like you didn't do it. Just a guess, but wouldn't Athol recommend that if your wife started her 1 to 2 hour daily convo with her family, that you say something like "I see you don't want to spend time together so I'm going out to have some fun?" Isn't it safe to say that you sitting there waiting patiently (angry, but patiently) is giving her exactly what she wants? Nothing changed except taking the possibility of sex off the table. JMHO


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## MaybeItsMe? (Oct 26, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> Last night, I tried again, applying what I've learned and the MAP.
> 
> Before my wife got home, she called and asked me, should she get us anything to eat? I told her, no, we have enough food. She said okay and came home. But I already had her fav healthy wrap ready on a tv tray and we watched tv together and chatted about her day. Then she complains she has to do the laundry. I went upstairs and helped her without asking if she wanted help. We loaded the laundry and hit start in 30 seconds........why all the complaining then? I go downstairs and put in apple pie. She decides to call her parents and sis and talk for 1+ hours again and then surf the net on her laptop (30 min). I am downstairs wanting to cuddle with her on the couch, talk more about her day and eat pie. She knows I'm getting mad about always talking to her parents and sis every day for 1 - 2 hours. We cuddled later but she knew I'm not happy. I didn't mention or ask her for sex.......guess what? No sex for that night either. See, if I don't press for sex, she doesn't initiate and it's more like 1 - 2 times a month which is a joke. This doesn't make her want sex more, just the opposite, more comfy, happier and me "catering" to her more!!! So if I'm a jerk, she is in the mood more. If I'm nicer, sex is less. That's messed up!!!


Did you read No more Mr. Nice guy? The book would have said to do the opposite to what you did.

By doing the things you did for your wife you gave with a hidden contract, when that contract wasn't fulfilled you got upset. 

Do things for your wife because you want to, with no hidden motive. If you want sex then man up, tell her you want it and then take her up stairs. 

Its sad but with some people you can't be nice and caring, they will walk all over you and its a turn off to them. We as modern men have been programmed wrong and its not good for us or for them. As men we need to be more assertive and doing your wife chores for her is not a good way to go, you look like a fool in her eyes enabling her to have time to talk on the phone for hours

You are the man, act like it!

ps

I am also going through this and I know its tough.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

A quick question.

How is your wife supposed to lose weight when you eat apple pie and desserts all the time? LOL


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## RavenWolf (Dec 22, 2012)

I have been pondering a few things about your dilemma, as I have pondered mine. (I may have mine worked out, by the way!)

I just finished a round of potassium supplements. I was found to have low levels and was prescribed them. Since then, my body feels so much better AND I have had a massively high drive, just like it was when hubby and I first got together. I know you said your wife, like me, is over weight, and maybe her potassium level could be an issue? Just a thought. 

Second, when did you being body building? Could that look like a "sudden obsession" to your wife? If you didn't really talk to her in the past about wanting to body build, and then suddenly out of the blue hit the gym balls to the walls, she could possibly see that as you trying to impress other women. I know that when my husband (years ago) showed a sudden interest in hitting the gym, he was cheating on me. Maybe she subconsciously feels like something is up.

If you were the skinny, glasses wearing "nerdy" type when you got married, and are now the buff gym body and she is still the heavy girl, that could definitely change her way of thinking as well, and how she feels about herself. Maybe she feel "less appealing" to you now that you are so fit. 

My husband helps me a lot, doing the things you are doing. I really do appreciate it, and have been telling him more how much I do. I struggle with feeling inadequate, and wonder if your wife feels the same?

Many of the things you wrote about her sound so much like me, I'm hoping maybe something I wrote will be relevant. 

I'm 100% desperate to lose my weight. I KNOW I feel feel more worthy of so much when I actually feel comfortable in my own skin. I'm sure she would as well. If my husband offered to hit the gym with me, I would jump at the chance! I will not go by myself but will work out at the house. 

I think you would benefit together from scheduling work outs together. Even if it means Saturday mornings mean hiking in the woods. Get her out of her normal routine! 

I wish you the best. To bad I don't know her. Sounds like she and I could have a great conversation about our sex lives, weight issues and how to better our lives in general.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

CuddleBug,

Your wife must have been such a sweetheart when ya'll got married.

How was your self-esteem when you met your wife?

I lacked self confidence myself and was dumped by a beautiful babe when I talked about my childhood... Then this woman (wife) came into my life and I told her all my $hit from the start and she stayed...

I am a late bloomer also and I am in better shape and way more confident with people, even women now than I was in my 20's. I am the one who has really changed on my wife. 

What RW may make sense. I've changed so much about myself over the past year or so, she may wonder what's going on. That may not apply to you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MaybeItsMe? said:


> Did you read No more Mr. Nice guy? The book would have said to do the opposite to what you did.
> 
> By doing the things you did for your wife you gave with a hidden contract, when that contract wasn't fulfilled you got upset.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%!

It's been a while since I read NMMNG. But I recall reading about being responsible for your happiness (which is not sitting around waiting in vain), having a life someone wants to share (ditto), and being genuine (upfront about sex, no covert contracts).

Also, if you victim puke (the complaint about not getting any), make sure you don't do it to your wife. It weakens you and is the opposite of the image you want to project.

So, let's reset. IMO you need to start the process with some genuineness. Lay out your needs and expectations of her and invite her to have a dialogue about what she needs from you in order to meet your needs. Hopefully that will be all you need, although it's unlikely.

As was noted above, not everyone will give back just because they've received from you. Some folks are natural givers, some are balanced and will do for you if you do for them, and some (unfortunately) see no further than their own advantage. With this last group, being fair or reciprocating is not the point; action is taken only if there is potential advantage to be had.

You need to do less for her. You don't need to say anything; just act strongly. She doesn't want to have sex or be with you? Fine - it's her loss. You do for you. Watch a game on TV, go to the gym, get a hobby, etc. Offer her what you're having for dinner, but don't go out of your way for her. Invite her to your activities, but that's it. And so on. Once she's left behind a few times the message will come through loud and clear.

One thing to consider in advance is how to address the tests and accusations that may come your way. How did I handle it?

* I responded to accusations of excessive sexual expectations by noting that marriage is, at it's core, a sexual relationship. I also had to correct my ex when she said that as long as she was not cheating on me she was meeting her responsibility.

* When she accused me of cheating or being only about sex, I responded that it must not be all about sex or I would have left long ago because the sex was so poor as to not play any part in my decision to stay or leave. I further noted that I was not cheating because of my personal values. She had no right to expect me to uphold my part of the marital commitment when she was not doing the same. Yet, I was doing it anyways, which says much about my values.

* When she kept on being demanding without giving back much (non-sexually) I told her that this was a marriage of equals. Since she insisted on having equal say as me (which is fine) she needed to do as much as I did. If I have to pick up her slack, then I'm going to do it my way and for my benefit. If she could not even agree that she had to pull the same weight I did, there was no point in even discussing the matter further.

Lastly, please remember that - above all - you must disconnect the emotional hose. That goes beyond finding happiness apart from your wife. That means when she gets pissy as you get your balls back, you don't let your mood follow hers. When she lashes out at you for what she perceives as your responsibility for her situation, you keep on being unflappable.

Eventually, she will see that the only way to get you serving her is to do the same for you. She must give to get; you must matter in order for her to matter. It is highly unlikely (but not impossible) that she will stick around in that dynamic (you doing your own thing and happy). Either she will straighten out, which is increasingly likely if you have a good life and still keep some contact with her, or she will leave. That - the point where she gets that change is inevitable and she has to get on board or move on - is what you want.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ISD-Inhibited Sexual Desire????

A quick read that may help you (me to) be more understanding.

Inhibited sexual desire: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Last night, I tried again, applying what I've learned and the MAP.


Based on what you posted, I question if you learned anything honestly.



CuddleBug said:


> Before my wife got home, she called and asked me, should she get us anything to eat? I told her, no, we have enough food. She said okay and came home. But I already had her fav healthy wrap ready on a tv tray and we watched tv together and chatted about her day. Then she complains she has to do the laundry. I went upstairs and helped her without asking if she wanted help. We loaded the laundry and hit start in 30 seconds........why all the complaining then? I go downstairs and put in apple pie.


Up to here, you were doing fine.



CuddleBug said:


> She decides to call her parents and sis and talk for 1+ hours again and then surf the net on her laptop (30 min). I am downstairs wanting to cuddle with her on the couch, talk more about her day and eat pie. *She knows I'm getting mad about always talking to her parents and sis every day for 1 - 2 hours. *


If she knew that, why did you sit there and take it? Get up and go out. Go watch some TV for yourself, do something. Sitting there stewing isn't going to solve the problem. 



CuddleBug said:


> We cuddled later but she knew I'm not happy.


How did she know? Did you tell her? If not, you don't know that she knew you were unhappy, you implied that she should know, which is essentially a covert contract in a way. Be a man and tell her what you think.



CuddleBug said:


> I didn't mention or ask her for sex.......guess what? No sex for that night either.


You also didn't mention subs, football, mowing the lawn or Godzilla. Did any of those things come into your night? No. Why should you expect sex will? You want it, say so. Make her acknowledge you are in the mood and make her say no to your advances. Put the onus for no sex on her and don't leave her wiggle room to say "well I didn't know you wanted sex..."



CuddleBug said:


> See, if I don't press for sex, she doesn't initiate and it's more like 1 - 2 times a month which is a joke.


No, not at all. While I agree you should press for sex to a degree, not pressing for it doesn't mean it's automatically 1-2 a month. Especially if you are basing your results off of just one night (who changes overnight?). Additionally, you didn't even come close to MAPing correctly, so try it again.



CuddleBug said:


> This doesn't make her want sex more, just the opposite, more comfy, happier and me "catering" to her more!!! So if I'm a jerk, she is in the mood more. If I'm nicer, sex is less. That's messed up!!!


While there is a reasoning behind the 'jerk' method resulting in more sex, it's effectiveness is really short lived and for the most part goes against the grain of what a marriage should be like anyways. If you are treating your wife poorly solely to get sex, you are wrong on two fronts (one for treating her bad, two for doing so solely for sex). It won't produce any positive results long-term and will actually dig you a deeper hole.

Additionally, why is it a shock she's happy when you cater to her? Did you expect her to be upset that you cater to her? She also doesn't need to provide sex to get what she wants, thus the sex drops off.

The key to MAPing is to demand to get what you are entitled to (including a healthy sex life) without being a prick about it.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Everything I was learning seems to be working.

New Years Eve, i told her we are staying up and having a mini celebration (otherwise she goes to sleep by 10pm).

Then we went upstairs and we started to make out. I started to work my way down, she pushed me back. I told her get over your insecurities, its 2013 resolution and I'm going down on you. She relaxed, I licked her neck (never lets me do that), worked my way down kissing and started to give her oral until she climaxed. Then I grabbed her feet and gave myself a foot job ( she didn't mind). The we did different positions and she sucked my fingers until I went (doggie style legs together) This lasted almost 1 hour before we realized at was almost 1am.

This has never happened before!!!

I am making more of the decisions when she asks me things and I tell her she is hot, nice outfit, no ass grabbing, just hands in her pockets. Then I put my hands down her pants and she didn't mind it. (usually hates that)

I told her once each week is your night (oral for her) she smiles and likes that and a few quick ones during the week. (she has no issues with that either now)

Definitely changing............never expected this.


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## RavenWolf (Dec 22, 2012)

Yay! Good for both of you!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

How would you get my wife to try anal?

I've asked her before and accidentally almost put it in the other hole during doggie. I get HEY, EXIT ONLY, NO.

Is that all there is then? How can I approach this while still being alpha, not asking, not begging?


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> How would you get my wife to try anal?
> 
> I've asked her before and accidentally almost put it in the other hole during doggie. I get HEY, EXIT ONLY, NO.
> 
> Is that all there is then? How can I approach this while still being alpha, not asking, not begging?


I think you may be pushing too hard for this, but the way I brought it up to my wife was that once I got her comfortable with my masturbation and what all was going on there, I explained that I watch anal porn while masturbating, as she asked what kind of porn I watched. It may have been pushing too much at the time, but I also told her I fantasize doing her anally as well.
When the next argument come up a few days later, the anal and masturbation crap got thrown in my face...she tried to make me feel bad or humiliated or something, but it didn't work. 
Later, after the dust settled and we made up, one of my latest sexual encounters resulted in her telling me to go there. The hormone treatments have done her well...she got so aroused and horny, she wanted me to enjoy her as I had envisioned. It was very nice and the following session, even though she was a little hesitant, she allowed me to finish there again. I certainly don't plan on doing this every time, but once in a while will certainly add to my flavors I enjoy with her. When I had first brought up the idea, she said that it would never happen and it was good that I had fantasies. Oh look, she changed her mind.
So, all I can suggest is that when you two are in a very calm and collected moment, tell her what you desire/fantasize, but should also let her know that this is not a deal breaker...This is something that she would be going above and beyond the normal expectations to bring joy to her partner, to satisfy a desire.
Good luck.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I think I will leave the anal sex alone for quite the while then. Keep things as they are going for a while first before even thinking about it.

Getting and giving sex regularly is the million dollar issue with my wife. I can only read and change so much, now a lot is up to her.

I think most women will agree anal is exit only but some do like it and porn actresses are paid to like it.


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