# She loves me, but she's not attracted to me



## soincrediblylost

Hi everyone. Hoping to find some sanity and help in this forum. This is my first post.

I just turned 38, my wife is 34 (35 in October). We've been married for 12.5 years, and have two children: a 5-year-old boy and a 2-year-old girl.

On Friday of last week, my wife and I were sitting at the kitchen table after putting the kids to bed, and I could tell something was "off" with her. I asked her what was on her mind, prepared to listen and be supportive (as I always am).

She revealed to me, very somberly, that she is not attracted to me. 

Not only is she not attracted to me _right now_, she has _never_ been attracted to me.

She says she loves me — _that I am her very best friend, and I am a great husband and amazing father_ — but she doesn't feel anything for me romantically. She married me because she knew I would be a safe bet; I treat her like a queen, and am always looking out for her and serving her and doing my best to make her happy. (Not in a "she walks all over me" sort of way, but in the way that an attentive and caring husband should.)

Some background: our sex life hasn't been the greatest in the past handful of years. We've had two children in the past 5 years, so our frequency has slowed down a bit. On top of that, I am really busy, working from 9-5 and then doing school in the evenings (9 - Midnight) at least 3-4 nights a week, if not 5 — which means that she is a 'homework widow' (as she puts it) and we don't spend as much time together as I would like during the school year.

In addition, over the last two years or so she has begun playing a game called Lords Mobile on her phone. She is on it constantly, chatting with people and making new friends. She tells me about what's going on in the game and I know about the people that she chats with, so it's not like I'm totally locked out of that part of her life — but I also wonder if there's any chatting going on there that she's _not_ telling me about.

On top of that, I am currently at 250 lbs. When she married me, I was probably at 235-240 lbs. or so, so my physique has been relatively the same for most of our marriage. However, since school started, I have put on weight, and recently got as high as 267 lbs. I carry my weight well (as well as an obese man can - most people are surprised when I tell them how much I weigh), but yeah — I can't blame her for not being attracted to me with that in mind.

Taking it as a wake up call, I have been eating super clean (and even small portions) and going to the gym every day, and have lost about 15 lbs. in a short amount of time; however, I need to get down around 200 lbs. or so before I will start looking more attractive, I would guess. Even with that, she says she doesn't know if she'll ever be attracted to me in a romantic way.

She says that she's not wanting to divorce and she wants our family to be together — _and that this is not just about sex_ — but this is just something she doesn't know what to do about, and can't seem to sort her feelings out.

Obviously, neither can I (or I wouldn't be here asking perfect strangers what to do or how to feel).

Do you guys think she is already looking elsewhere? Does she just need really good sex? Is me trying to lose weight in vain? Is this a mid-life crisis thing where she feels the need to "sew her oats" and make the most of her 30's? (Sidebar: during our last romp a few weeks ago, she asked me to go down on her — something she's never asked me to do, and in fact, has always told me she doesn't like...is that a sign of something? She's also purchased two new 'toys' [vibrators] for us to use together, which we have.) I know she says the issue is not all sexual, but I also know it's more about that than she is letting on.

She seems just fine and mostly happy, but I can tell things are different. I thought our marriage was happy and comfortable (we hardly ever fight and are generally happy people), but it seems I was wrong, I guess.

I don't want to separate/divorce from my best friend. I couldn't imagine us raising our kids apart or not having a relationship.

Is our marriage doomed?
What even is "romance" in a marriage? 
How do you spark or keep romance alive after starting a family?
Can attraction be found after you've been with the same person for so long?
What do I do/say next?

*HELP!*


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## Marduk

This may not seem helpful, but I've been there. For different reasons, and with a different kind of problem, but I've been there.

What I learned was to say to hell with it and just be a better man. 

My wife can stay or go - marriage is a choice, after all - but my decision to be better had to be grounded in myself. She was tired of me, and the fact was I was tired of myself, too. So I got better. I fell, I got back again, and it's an endless cycle.

Do you want to be better? What does that mean? How will you know you're improving even if that has nothing at all to do with your wife's attraction to you?

Find that part. Find what it means to be better. Make a plan that doesn't depend on her reacting to it.

And then go do that.


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## Marc878

Check your phone bill if you want to know who her new boyfriend is.

Wake up to your new reality


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## Andy1001

It appears that your wife is rewriting history when she says she has never been attracted to you. People do this to justify in their own minds the fact that they have developed feelings (at least) for someone else. 
Start quietly investigating your wife’s internet activity and if necessity bring in an expert to assist in this. Find out who she’s messaging the most and then you will have a starting point. 
You can do everything you want to try and make your marriage work but if some player is feeding her a line then you are wasting your time.


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## Spicy

Yeah, she is cheating. It may be an EA (emotional affair) with someone online. He could be lighting her fire, and has turned her on by talk of performing oral sex on her, which could have prompted her to ask out of the blue. She may have wanted to get the new vibes to help imagine being with him (a different dong so to speak). 

Or, she could be seeing someone locally and having a PA (physical affair). You got the famous “I love you but I’m not _in_ love with you” speech. Very often the kiss of death to most marriages. 

Time to go into detective mode and it won’t take you long to find out who it is and what all she is doing. I’m sorry you are here, but we can help you navigate.


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## wilson

It's too early to be certain, but this certainly has the indications that she's interested in someone else. It's quite common in online games for people to flirt with each other. The most likely guess is some guy in the game is flirting with her. If that's the case, there would likely be additional evidence in email, social media, phone, etc.

As for never being attracted to you, do you think that's really the case? Think back to when you first were together. Was she passionately in love with you? Or did she seem disinterested? It's common that someone in the affair fog rewrites the past to say they never loved you or whatever. Is that how you remember her acting? Not what you felt for her, but how did she feel about you early on? 

You certainly should improve yourself, but that's just something you should be doing for yourself. It doesn't sound like your weight has changed all that much to make her lose attraction for you. And besides, marital love is much more than how someone looks. You could get your body to look like a hunky movie star and it might not change her love for you. It might make her *lust* for you, but lust is not love.


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## soincrediblylost

IUsedToBeMarduk said:


> This may not seem helpful, but I've been there. For different reasons, and with a different kind of problem, but I've been there.
> 
> What I learned was to say to hell with it and just be a better man.
> 
> My wife can stay or go - marriage is a choice, after all - but my decision to be better had to be grounded in myself. She was tired of me, and the fact was I was tired of myself, too. So I got better. I fell, I got back again, and it's an endless cycle.
> 
> Do you want to be better? What does that mean? How will you know you're improving even if that has nothing at all to do with your wife's attraction to you?
> 
> Find that part. Find what it means to be better. Make a plan that doesn't depend on her reacting to it.
> 
> And then go do that.


This is exactly what I've decided to do. I'm with you: I can't change her feelings or her mind. If it's made up, then there's nothing I can do. All I can do is work on me and then, hell, if she decides I'm not checking the boxes, then at least I am in the best place I can be, and ready to see what's next in life's adventures.

I made that decision this weekend: I wanted to get back to the gym and eat better, but not for her — for ME, because I was starting to feel like a stranger in my own skin. I hated getting dressed in the morning, hated all my clothes, and just want to feel confident and happy again in regards to my health and looks. So far it's working well, and I can feel every pound lost (and my self confidence is rising), so that's good.

Thanks for giving sane advice instead of jumping to the conclusion that she's already cheating on me. I appreciate that.


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## personofinterest

Your wife is having an affair with a fellow gamer, and she is rewriting the history of your marriage.


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## soincrediblylost

Marc878 said:


> Check your phone bill if you want to know who her new boyfriend is.
> 
> Wake up to your new reality


Already did — I'm no dummy. (I work in IT for a living.) There's nothing there, text or call. What I haven't been able to look at (nor am I sure I want to) is her chats from within her game on her phone. That would require me sneaking her phone away and breaking into it...and I'm not sure I want to escalate to something like that.


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## CraigBesuden

I have no opinion on whether she is having an affair.

However, I strongly urge you to continue dieting and working out. Get your fat percentage below 10%, add a lot of muscle, and broaden your shoulders. This will help you in your marriage or, if it ends, in the dating world.

Learn how to perform cunnilingus well. I almost always give my wife at least 5 orgasms that way, and sometimes dozens. If you need techniques, you’ll find them here. I’ve posted my techniques and Starfires has posted hers. Also on how to please her with PIV sex, with G spot, A spot, O spot, etc.

Also focus on your clothing style, hair style, hygiene, etc. Wear a cologne she likes. Be the best you can be.


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## wilson

> In addition, over the last two years or so she has begun playing a game called Lords Mobile on her phone. She is on it constantly, chatting with people and making new friends. She tells me about what's going on in the game and I know about the people that she chats with, so it's not like I'm totally locked out of that part of her life — but I also wonder if there's any chatting going on there that she's not telling me about.


Even if she's not having an affair, her time on the game is causing issues in the marriage. She's creating a life outside of your family. This much time in the game is inappropriate for a spouse and parent of 2 young kids. Most parents of young kids barely have any free time as it is. If she's on the game constantly, at a minimum she's slacking off with her family.

I'm sure this is hard to hear, but you need to tackle this problem head on. You should view this situation like she's wanting to try heroin. If you take a soft approach and don't rock the boat, pretty soon you'll have an addict and all the problems and damage that brings. You need to take control of this situation for the good of your family. You are going to get rolled over otherwise. You need to be the dad your kids need and save your family. Tell her to cut off the game immediately. There's nothing in the game that should be more important than your family. If she doesn't give up the game, that will show you how serious the problem is.

Even if getting a chiselled body fixes everything, that's months away at a minimum. You need to take control of this now. Months from now she won't care what you look like because she'll be off in lala land with her gaming friends.


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## soincrediblylost

wilson said:


> It's too early to be certain, but this certainly has the indications that she's interested in someone else. It's quite common in online games for people to flirt with each other. The most likely guess is some guy in the game is flirting with her. If that's the case, there would likely be additional evidence in email, social media, phone, etc.
> 
> As for never being attracted to you, do you think that's really the case? Think back to when you first were together. Was she passionately in love with you? Or did she seem disinterested? It's common that someone in the affair fog rewrites the past to say they never loved you or whatever. Is that how you remember her acting? Not what you felt for her, but how did she feel about you early on?
> 
> You certainly should improve yourself, but that's just something you should be doing for yourself. It doesn't sound like your weight has changed all that much to make her lose attraction for you. And besides, marital love is much more than how someone looks. You could get your body to look like a hunky movie star and it might not change her love for you. It might make her *lust* for you, but lust is not love.


Another reply that makes a lot of sense. It's weird: it's like, if you weren't attracted to me, why did you stay married to me for 12 years? Why did we have two kids together? (You don't have kids together with someone you're not attracted to, right?)

She acknowledges that the love is still there. When we were talking this weekend and I froze her out for a bit while I was processing, she was crying a lot; said she doesn't want to lose her best friend or ruin her marriage, but wanted to be honest with me about what she was feeling. Don't know what to make of that.


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## BruceBanner

Your wife seems to be quite critical. What exactly does SHE look like? @soincrediblylost


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## CraigBesuden

I had a friend who was living with his girlfriend in Michigan. The two of them played a lot of an online PC game, maybe World of Warcraft or Ultima Online. 

Anyway, his gf met a married guy with three kids online who was from the Seattle area. She suddenly moved out to the coast to be with the cheating husband. My friend talked with the BW and she agreed to move herself and kids in with him, and she did. He said he felt he got the better end of the deal.

Happy ending!


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## soincrediblylost

BruceBanner said:


> Your wife seems to be quite critical. What exactly does SHE look like? @soincrediblylost


She is a beautiful woman, but she is in the same boat: we've both stress eaten junk for the last few years while I've been in school, so she has gained weight as well. (Having two kids and eating fast food several nights a week will do it to ya.)

We both work out and are working to lose weight. My motivation is to look better and feel better (and, yes, hopefully be more attractive to her); she claims her motivation is the same, but who knows.


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## Marc878

soincrediblylost said:


> Already did — I'm no dummy. (I work in IT for a living.) There's nothing there, text or call. What I haven't been able to look at (nor am I sure I want to) is her chats from within her game on her phone. That would require me sneaking her phone away and breaking into it...and I'm not sure I want to escalate to something like that.


Well hmmm. Typically when they come out with this crap there's another guy in the mix. Happens most of the time.

If you don't know what the problem is you sure can't fix it can you?

You have a major problem so I wouldn't be too concerned at respecting her privacy to cheat but that's just me.

If she's never been attracted to you then your marriage is toast anyway so tell me what you have to lose? This is BS and very similar to cheater script.

Hint: playing the pick me dance or trying to nice her back always fail. It just make you look weak and lowers your status which is even more unnattractive.

Hope you wake up. You need to.


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## Openminded

Why did she marry you when she says she was never attracted to you? She likely thought the two of you would be a good fit and you would be a good father and a good provider. In other words, she loves you but she's not in love with you. She's not the first woman to marry someone under those circumstances, unfortunately. They usually don't admit it though. That's why I think some gamer is paying attention to her and she likes it. Can she fall in love with you and finally be attracted to you? Possibly but don't count on it.


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## ConanHub

Learn to spank?

I'm actually mostly at a loss in these situations.

Best wishes.


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## Spicy

Does she guard her phone? Does she freely let you use it anytime you want? Does she take it everywhere with her, even the bathroom? Sleeping with it, perhaps even under her pillow?

You say she is on it a lot more than before...are you sure she is actually playing the game, or could she just be chatting with a guy most of that time? (Do you see her screen and it is actively in the middle of a game?)

If you want a chance of saving your marriage, worrying about her privacy needs to end now. Get into those chats.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

soincrediblylost said:


> Already did — I'm no dummy. (I work in IT for a living.) There's nothing there, text or call. What I haven't been able to look at (nor am I sure I want to) is her chats from within her game on her phone. *That would require me sneaking her phone away and breaking into it...and I'm not sure I want to escalate to something like that*.


Your wife of a dozen years and mother of your 2 kids is spending all her time glued to the phone, gives you the ILYBIANILWY speech- rewriting the marital history and you are worried about 'escalating'. 

We have read thousands of stories just like this. Same story. By the time you read them all it will be too late. 

So you better wake up and listen. Start with sneaking that phone away and installing a key logger and see just exactly what she is up to in that gamer community -- and more.


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## Casual Observer

I'm going to offer a different take on things, something I wouldn't have considered had I not discovered a pre-our-relationship diary of hers.

I may have been in the same boat, but without the honesty your wife has put on the table. My wife lead a pretty exciting life prior to me coming around; she had multiple guys interested in her at the same time, and at least once she was surprised it was not who she expected that was knocking on her window in the middle of the night. She went to a lot of concerts, a lot of drive-in movies, and even did a small amount of drinking. She was not promiscuous in terms of sex (there may have been one before me, there may not, details are a bit fuzzy) but close, kind of the everything-but category and all of this was in conflict with her Christian values. She scared herself to death between the excitement and knowing that this wasn't how she was supposed to live. 

And then I came along. Rock-steady, very slow to escalate a relationship, more friend than romantic partner at first. The type of love we had was found in endless letters written between us, and talks about the future. There was lust, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the foundation for the relationship. 

She ended up choosing me because she saw a safe future and an escape from the stuff in her past. And she hid the immediately-prior relationship from me completely. Outright lied about some things, because, I think it's safe to say, that's not the person she wanted me to know. Or even know of. It's only 43 years later, reading her diary, that I learn this truth. We certainly did, and do, love each other. But the foundation of our relationship, for her, I believe was escape to a safer place. 

And so what happens during the next 10, 20, 30 years? I think it safe to say she, like your wife, wasn't really attracted to me all that much. I was certainly attracted to her, and what built up was an odd pairing that might not be that unusual. A bit of resentment on her part that I'm attracted to her physically (as well as other ways) but for her, the physical needs were put aside and kind of left to rot.

I was too busy getting my business off the ground to really pay much attention to what was going on, although I was quite aware that I seemed HD and her LD. We were happy, we raised two great kids, we did all the things you're supposed to tick off on the list of life. 

And that's why, finding and reading that diary so many years later, when everyone says it shouldn't matter, it hit me so friggin' hard. That diary was, in a way, what your wife told you the other day. But you've got a huge advantage because you can deal with it in real time. You can get therapy, marriage counseling, and consider all sorts of options. You may be able to find that "Come to Jesus" moment where your wife gets it and sees that sexy and attraction occurs in the brain and recognizes that a universe without you in it is the most unattractive, unsexiest thing of all. 

My wife and I are working through things, and I can truthfully say sex at 63 & 62 is better than it's ever been before. Not good enough, but better. We both (now) recognize that attractiveness and sexiness is quality time spent together, rather than her doing her on-line games, me getting work done, and me asking if it's OK if I come in for sex. There's no watching TV in the bedroom anymore. There's no thinking about whether to close the bedroom door or not when I come to bed (yes, the two grown adult kids are still living at home). It's closed. We spend time talking about the day, giving her backrubs and arm rubs (her body's a bit of a wreck after three bouts of breast cancer) and inevitably we end things with sex. She still doesn't initiate, she still doesn't take responsibility for creating some variety, she still doesn't flirt with me as I do with her. I do so many special things now that I never did before, and so many things around the house. I make the bed every single day, something that was basically never, ever done until 4 months ago, because it feels good coming into the bedroom and not seeing things in disarray. 

OK, so these are things you can start working on now. I got a lot of crap here for my view that making myself indispensable could help, but it really has. She had to imagine a life without me that would be looking pretty sad and drab. She got to see I actually have potential to become a better person, at 63. And yes, I had to confront her and tell her things could not continue as they have. 

Anyway, you and I may have married a variant of the same woman. Yours has been a bit more up-front about things than mine. I guess the obvious question is, what do you know of her life before you met her? Did you represent a break from her past? Because that's where I think things can go really badly. People here often say the past doesn't matter, what matters is the now. That might be true for many. But for some of us, perhaps the past is everything, and we have to confront it head on before finally moving forward to a better place.


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## StarFires

Just like everybody else, I look for flags in people's posts although mine are probably different from most other members. I don't automatically jump to the cheating conclusions and while I can't argue or rule that out as a possibility, it's not the vibe or any of the flags I got from what you wrote.

But I do have to wonder why and how she came right out and told you that. Women don't normally fix their lips to say that type of thing, as you see being that you've been married 12.5 years and she never spoke of it or even so much as alluded to it before. I could almost understand her having the nerve to say it if you had asked her something to that effect, but you didn't. So why did she say it?

I, like anyone else, can look at a guy and know if I am attracted to him. But I've been with a lot more guys that I wasn't attracted to at all. A guy's physique nor whether or not I was initially attracted to him seldom played a role in my decision to give him a chance. For each prospective relationship, I wanted to find out if there could be anything to it, as opposed to possibly making the mistake of dismissing some real potential suitors. So, I've been with some extremely handsome guys and some truly butt ugly ones and every level of looks in between. I've been with skinny and fat guys and every weight class in between. It was never outward appearance that sexually attracted me to them, and outward appearances couldn't keep me with them either. It was who they showed themselves to be and it was their performance in bed that determined my attraction. If they treated me unkindly in any way, then they never grew any attraction to me. If they were not good in bed (even though sometimes I thought we could work on it), then they never grew any attraction to me. And that part also applied to those who were nice and treated me well. If they were selfish in bed or not generally satisying, I simply never became sexually attracted to them. They had to be able to make me want them sexually. That's what determined attraction.

I said that because your wife told you she was never attracted to you. I really question if that had anything to do with your looks or weight, or if it has more to do with her sexual satisfaction. For example, a lot of women say they don't like men to do oral sex. While there may be some women who are way too sensitive to endure it, women generally say they don't like it because they find it unsatisfying, sometimes even annoying. So they say they don't like it, rather than boldly telling their guy that he doesn't do it well for fear that will hurt his feelings. I expect we women truly appreciate our man is willing to please us that way and tries to please us that way, but it's not automatically pleasing just because he's doing it. For that reason, some women will say they don't like it. That is, until they are with someone who does it so that it is pleasing. And then those women will never again say they don't like it because they find they absolutely love it.

I didn't say any of that to hurt your feelings or offend you in any way. I said it because not all men understand women's bodies or our needs. And men don't always pick up on the signals that we women send. Sometimes we say one thing, but we mean something different, or we'll say something to prevent making our man self conscious. I also said it because a little instruction in the way of technique can go a long way to make a woman want to be with a man sexually, which of course increases her attraction to him.

So, if you're open to it, read my response *here in this thread* and apply those techniques beginning at the 4th paragraph. Adjust according to her responses and her preferences.

After giving her explosive orgasms when you go down on her, see if she ever tells you she doesn't like oral again.


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## CraigBesuden

It’s not necessarily a bad thing for another man online to get her engine running, then you benefit from it. If she’s opening up sexually it’s good. Hone your oral skills.


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## BruceBanner

CraigBesuden said:


> It’s not necessarily a bad thing for another man online to get her engine running, then you benefit from it. If she’s opening up sexually it’s good. Hone your oral skills.


None of what you said is good. She's just projecting.


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## Betrayedone

That line is such a bunch of manure.......Laughable. I'm sorry but your marriage is likely toast......Consider yourself lucky that you have suffered minimally. Cut your losses early.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Marc878 said:


> Well hmmm. Typically when they come out with this crap there's another guy in the mix. Happens most of the time.
> 
> Hint: playing the pick me dance or trying to nice her back always fail. It just make you look weak and lowers your status which is even more unnattractive.


So she loves you but is not attracted to you. This is similar to the old “ I love you but am not in love with you”. These are code words letting you know she has someone else. @Marc878 nailed this one. 

I think this is one of the times you implement the 180. Focus on yourself, and lose weight and get yourself healthy. She has one foot out the door right now. And for love of Jesus, do not whine and do the pick me dance. That is guaranteed to fail. Women respect confidence and strength.

Snoop her computer,iPad, and iPhone. Your answer lies there most likely. I am wondering if this may not be a time to serve her with petition for divorce. Tell her you want her to be happy and if she is not happy with you, tell her you are setting her free. This needs to be done to gauge her response.

My FWW screwed me over and I left for six weeks. She came to her senses when reality set in.


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## Marduk

soincrediblylost said:


> This is exactly what I've decided to do. I'm with you: I can't change her feelings or her mind. If it's made up, then there's nothing I can do. All I can do is work on me and then, hell, if she decides I'm not checking the boxes, then at least I am in the best place I can be, and ready to see what's next in life's adventures.
> 
> 
> 
> I made that decision this weekend: I wanted to get back to the gym and eat better, but not for her — for ME, because I was starting to feel like a stranger in my own skin. I hated getting dressed in the morning, hated all my clothes, and just want to feel confident and happy again in regards to my health and looks. So far it's working well, and I can feel every pound lost (and my self confidence is rising), so that's good.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for giving sane advice instead of jumping to the conclusion that she's already cheating on me. I appreciate that.




I haven’t heard you throw many red flags that indicate cheating. I mean, I’d sure keep my head on a swivel if I were you, but it’s pretty clear that you both are on the same page about one thing: not being happy with where you’re at, physically or in your head.

If you get focused, centred, and fit... and she comes back to you, great. You win.

If you get focused, centred, and fit... and she cheats or leaves you, you still win. 

The real problem is going to be if you do those things, and she stays but stays checked out... you’re going to be at a fork in the road.

But that’s for later. 1% improvement, every day. In whatever way is meaningful to you.


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## Marduk

soincrediblylost said:


> Another reply that makes a lot of sense. It's weird: it's like, if you weren't attracted to me, why did you stay married to me for 12 years? Why did we have two kids together? (You don't have kids together with someone you're not attracted to, right?)


More than likely she’s re-writing history to justify her feelings now. It could feel very much to her that it’s true, and yet not be true at all that she was never attracted to him.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. If he’s his best self and happy and she’s not into him, then as Conan said: “Then to hell with you. I will do it myself.”


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## CraigBesuden

Without knowing the context, it’s hard to say. Did something change? I mean, if she’s never been attracted to you then everything remains great, right? No change?

It sounds like something changed. She presumably said it for a reason, such as an online EA (that’s emotional affair, not Electronic Arts.) She’s trying to distance herself from you, presumably. Perhaps rewriting history as others suggest.

Based on the little info you’ve provided, I doubt your marriage is over. But you need to get her off her phone and those chats/games.


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## Livvie

Ask her why she chose to tell you*now* that she was never attracted to you.


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## niceguy47460

She is cheating and she is working out for him


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## niceguy47460

You better dig into her chat logs on that game


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## StarFires

soincrediblylost said:


> Another reply that makes a lot of sense. It's weird: it's like, if you weren't attracted to me, why did you stay married to me for 12 years? Why did we have two kids together? (You don't have kids together with someone you're not attracted to, right?)
> 
> She acknowledges that the love is still there. When we were talking this weekend and I froze her out for a bit while I was processing, *she was crying a lot; said she doesn't want to lose her best friend or ruin her marriage, but wanted to be honest with me about what she was feeling*. Don't know what to make of that.


uhhh errr ummmmm That scares the crap out of me. There is regret in them thar words and in her tears. So, and I really hate feeling this way, but I'm putting affair back on the table. Not necessarily that's she's done anything but if she hasn't, it sounds like she wants to because she sounds conflicted. I didn't see your response before or I wouldn't have posted my other comments.


----------



## Marc878

If you chase or do the needy they will move farther away from you.

Independence is an attractive trait to have.

You may want her but you don't need her.

Keep that in mind. Many get a kind word and then jump in with both feet thinking everything's fine now. 

It's far from it bud


----------



## BruceBanner

Also @soincrediblylost your wife will likely be leaving you as soon as she finally loses weight and gets in shape.


----------



## soincrediblylost

Thanks, everyone, for your input.

For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:

“I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”

And another:

“I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”

Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


----------



## Casual Observer

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


I think text messaging is an odd and detached way for things to play out, especially when the issue is a sort of detachment. 

But the main thing is for both of you to extrapolate out a few years and think about what would happen if she came across someone she both admired and found herself attracted to.


----------



## Marc878

Casual Observer said:


> I think text messaging is an odd and detached way for things to play out, especially when the issue is a sort of detachment.
> 
> But the main thing is for both of you to extrapolate out a few years and think about what would happen if she came across someone she both admired and found herself attracted to.


Assuming she hasn't already.

Do you really want to put in more time with some who feels this way?

I mean seriously. I would not waste another second of my life. You can't get it back.


----------



## StarFires

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


She sounds like she is struggling like I struggled with the lack of sexual satisfaction in my first marriage. We were very young and inexperienced with no idea of a woman's sexual needs. I had no idea what I was missing. I only knew I was missing something that I wasn't getting. My husband was a very attractive guy by most women's standards, but I was never attracted to him and, well, I didn't love him either. I liked him, but he was never able to garner love or attraction from me. I knew he was willing to do whatever he could to please me, and the poor guy really did try, but he wasn't skillful at all, and we both lacked any knowledge as to know what to do about it. 

Because it seems like I can feel her pain, the only difference between me and your wife is that I truly did want a divorce. I knew I didn't want to live my life that way. I didn't know if I would ever find what I was missing, but I knew it wasn't there with him so I wanted out. I left for a very different reason, but that reason created the opportunity and since I was already one foot out the door, it's all the same if I say that was the reason I left.

A woman can love a man, and a woman can be attracted to a man she doesn't love. But it isn't possible for a woman to be in love with a man she's not attracted to. There has to be some kind of attraction. For me, that attraction has to be sexual.

Whether or not she is interested in someone right now, I think you have to consider that your marriage just might not be sustainable either way. Listen to what she's saying in those messages and try to imagine if you would be willing to live your life like that, struggling so hard with the acceptance of what she's missing. There are lots of people who go through their whole marriage that way. I wasn't one of them and while it has taken her much longer than it took me (about a year or so) to realize that not only is it not happening but it's never going to happen, can she endure it forever?

But another difference between me and your wife is I never spent any portion of my life looking for a husband. It appears she did and chose what she saw was a safe man. Some are raised to find themselves a husband. Lots of women just want to be married and will endure almost anything to keep their marriage. So I could be wrong to question her willingness. But I do think you should make every effort to get to the bottom of her dissatisfaction.

I have defined what attraction is to me and what garners sexual attraction from me. You should talk with your wife and ask her to define what "not attracted to you" specifically means. Is it a visual thing or is it a sexual thing, or are they both linked as in she can't have one without the other. If it's sexual dissatisfaction, that can be worked on and fixed. If it's visual, I don't think I would appreciate that and would make no attempt to fix it if I wasn't really any different from when she met me. But as you say you are working out and dieting, make those changes if you please but like others have said, do it for yourself and not for her.


----------



## Openminded

What you're missing in her explanation is the difference between loving someone and being in love with them. 

It's a very big difference.


----------



## TJW

soincrediblylost said:


> ....I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But_*...maybe it’s not a necessity*_. I do love you. I will support you and care for you.....


I had a GF who was similar, and had similar feelings. Thanks to God, I didn't marry her.....thanks again, to God....it would have been awful.....



StarFires said:


> .....she.....chose what she saw was a safe man.


Exactly. She wanted me for my "qualities"...... provider, companion, father....etc....etc.... I resented it so badly.... 

personally, "affair" is not my "take" on this. I think your wife is simply being honest with you, and allowing you to make your choices. She is doing what she can to "make it right", after having given herself permission to marry you for the benefits... she has arrived "here"....



StarFires said:


> not only is it not happening but it's never going to happen


I think some others have given you good advice. Do what you can, FOR YOU. I don't think any of this is going to change your wife.

I so wish that I had "heard" this statement much earlier and wouldn't have wasted so much of my life on my GF.

I'm not one who advises divorce, unless there is adultery, physical violence, abuse, etc. Some people, faced with situations like yours (and mine) choose to get out and find someone else. I don't judge this, I fully understand how hurtful it is to be living there, and I don't wish it upon them. But, divorce may not be the best choice, overall. 

Only you can decide the best road. @StarFires has given you good insights.


----------



## aquarius1

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. *I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.*”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


I stick with my original assumption. Women withhold intimacy when involved with someone else. 
She is setting you up for a sexless marriage because her needs are being met elsewhere (emotional, physical)
Fast forward 10 or 20 years. Read InAbsentia’s agonizing posts and journey for insight.
Read anyone in Sex in Marriage and understand the impact that no intimacy will have on your self esteem going forward.
Her needs are being met in that gaming community. Find a way to find out how.
You don’t need to worry about escalating. She’s already done that for you.
The next move is yours.
Be very discreet in your actions or she will cover them up.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

soincrediblylost said:


> Already did — I'm no dummy. (I work in IT for a living.) There's nothing there, text or call. What I haven't been able to look at (nor am I sure I want to) is her chats from within her game on her phone. That would require me sneaking her phone away and breaking into it...and I'm not sure I want to escalate to something like that.


You ARE aware of the wonderful world of chat apps...aren't you?

Just because the regular calling and texting features provided by her cell carrier aren't being used doesn't mean she's not communicating with someone else using one of the many, many, MANY other options out there now. It could be the chat feature in her game or it could be one of the many apps that let you chat, text and call for free, all using Wifi. Cheaters have been known to install them in the morning, use them all day, then uninstall them at night when they're together with their spouses.

Being in IT really doesn't offer that much of an advantage anymore.


----------



## Lila

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


I think you and your wife should seek the help of a marriage counselor ASAP. A good one can help you decide how to move forward. 

There may be a way to see your marriage through but it takes dedication from both of you. As an example, plenty of arranged marriages are low on attraction but high on other qualities. They have a different mindset which makes it possible to find love and sustain a long term marriage with a partner who they may not have been sexual attracted to in the first place. Give the marriage therapy a chance before making any go/no go decisions.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Livvie said:


> Ask her why she chose to tell you*now* that she was never attracted to you.


 It's painfully apparent *why* he's not hearing any of this bull**** until now. Because *up until now*, he was good 'enough' for her. 

Up until _now_.

But something much shinier has gotten her attention and _now _she just wants to be roommates and bestest friends with her husband. But don't worry, OP. She still wants you to support her financially and she still wants all the *benefits *of marriage, she just doesn't want to invest in you emotionally or physically anymore. 

OP, I think you're trying really really hard to *delude* yourself into believing this is just some midlife crisis or moment of confusion for her and that soon, this craziness will be over. Those texts you're hoping will change our outlook on the situation to me simply sound like she's trying to do a little damage control is all, trying to soften the blow for you and trying to fluff things up a bit so she doesn't come off as cold and ruthless as she really IS for what she's doing.

My best advice to you is to STOP trying to delude yourself because you don't want to face *the truth*. This isn't rocket science. She's on the phone SO much more now and suddenly, she's all about telling you how NOT attracted to you she is and how NOT in love with you she is. And she had 12 years to tell you this and never did. Not until the all that magic phone time she's now putting in.

You think these two things are a mere *coincidence*? Come on. 

You married a selfish, self absorbed woman who has no problem devastating you while expecting you to happily _continue _being married to her in your new role as "friend *only*, provider, father, and spider killer." 

I'm going to assume her new 'friend' probably lives too far away for her to be meeting physically.

Lucky, luck you.


----------



## Bibi1031

So you got the speech. Snoop and you shall find who she IS attracted to!


----------



## farsidejunky

soincrediblylost said:


> Another reply that makes a lot of sense. It's weird: it's like, if you weren't attracted to me, why did you stay married to me for 12 years? Why did we have two kids together? (You don't have kids together with someone you're not attracted to, right?)
> 
> 
> 
> She acknowledges that the love is still there. When we were talking this weekend and I froze her out for a bit while I was processing, she was crying a lot; said she doesn't want to lose her best friend or ruin her marriage, but wanted to be honest with me about what she was feeling. Don't know what to make of that.


Your response should have been very simple.

"If you want there to be honesty, it is necessary for you to be honest."

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

What can you actually live with, OP?

Can you remain married to her if what she says is true and actually isn't an affair?

I would think not. Soul crushing.

So, take action. As Marduk indicated, make you the best you possible...for you. 

Distance yourself from your wife. Be busy. Do things out of the house. Get fit. Immerse yourself in a hobby you love. Stop being so available. 

Simultaneously...get access to the game chat logs or other potential evidence. You will likely find what you need to see there.

After over 5 years on this site, I have seen only once when someone received ILYBINILWY where there was not some form of infidelity. Maybe you will be the second...but I sincerely doubt it. 

Sorry you had to come here, brother. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Tasorundo

OP, she is telling herself that she was never attracted to you to justify what she is doing. There is no question she is doing something she shouldn't be.

Ask to see her phone, go straight to the game, see what her reaction is. You don't need to see what is actually said. If she balks at the idea or reacts poorly, you know all you need to know. Seeing the words won't make a different in the end.

People are no where near as complex and nuanced as we want to make them. She is simply protecting herself by justifying the way she is treating you with a lie. By doing that, she can paint herself as a victim and not really responsible for how she is treating you.

She loves you so much......gag.


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> What can you actually live with, OP?
> 
> Can you remain married to her if what she says is true and actually isn't an affair?
> 
> I would think not. Soul crushing.
> 
> So, take action. As Marduk indicated, make you the best you possible...for you.
> 
> *Distance yourself from your wife. Be busy. Do things out of the house. Get fit. Immerse yourself in a hobby you love. Stop being so available. *
> 
> Simultaneously...get access to the game chat logs or other potential evidence. You will likely find what you need to see there.
> 
> After over 5 years on this site, I have seen only once when someone received ILYBINILWY where there was not some form of infidelity. Maybe you will be the second...but I sincerely doubt it.
> 
> Sorry you had to come here, brother.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk





soincrediblylost said:


> Some background: our sex life hasn't been the greatest in the past handful of years. We've had two children in the past 5 years, so our frequency has slowed down a bit. On top of that, I am really busy, working from 9-5 and then doing school in the evenings (9 - Midnight) at least 3-4 nights a week, if not 5 — which means that she is a 'homework widow' (as she puts it) and we don't spend as much time together as I would like during the school year.





Tasorundo said:


> OP, she is telling herself that she was never attracted to you to justify what she is doing. There is no question she is doing something she shouldn't be.
> 
> *Ask to see her phone, go straight to the game, see what her reaction is. You don't need to see what is actually said. If she balks at the idea or reacts poorly, you know all you need to know. Seeing the words won't make a different in the end.*
> 
> People are no where near as complex and nuanced as we want to make them. She is simply protecting herself by justifying the way she is treating you with a lie. By doing that, she can paint herself as a victim and not really responsible for how she is treating you.
> 
> She loves you so much......gag.


This. Snooping would be better, but if you won't snoop ask her to show you her phone. Read the chat logs from her game, look for messaging apps, check for apps that have been recently removed, etc. If she balks ask her why. If she claims privacy tell her that you went looking for advice and it was nearly unanimous that she's either already cheating or about to cheat, that multiple people told you to see what she's saying online, and that if she refuses it's because there's damaging info there. Let her know that you were warned that if she refuses then comes back later and offers you the phone it's because she wanted to purge the incriminating messages and there's no point.

Snooping would be better tactically, whether you ultimately decide to divorce or try to save your marriage. But either knowing the actual truth or knowing that what she told you is the actual truth is paramount, and _you cannot take her word for it_ at this point. If she's cheating or preparing to cheat she will lie about it and use your trust in her as a weapon. If you know that's what's happening you've removed her ammo and the weapon is useless.

The odds are very high that there's an interloper in your marriage. Note that even the answers you prefer are not ruling it out. This exact scenario has played out here multiple times. Farsidejunky says only one thread turned out to have no infidelity, I must have missed that one because I don't remember a single instance of in game chatting and ILYBNILWY not being infidelity. You clearly want to save your marriage, but if you've got an interloper and you don't fix that first you're doomed to failure.

Btw, read the second quote in my signature.


----------



## Nucking Futs

I forgot to mention, also read what she's saying to her friends and siblings. Sometimes there's a toxic friend encouraging the wayward to cheat, sometimes the wayward is demonizing the betrayed in an effort to justify what she's intending. If there is someone toxic in her ear she needs to eject that person from her life.


----------



## Marduk

While it is very true that she could be (or even probably is) engaging in some form of infidelity, still focus on your self-improvement and self-care no matter what she does.

You need to let her go. If not in your relationship right now, at least in your mind.

One thing I did during my dark days was to live very much as if we were over. My little family was no longer integrated, my wife was no longer mine, and I was single and alone in this world. I embedded that into my thinking from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to bed. I let that guide my actions moment to moment. I let that guide my decision making. I let it guide my attitude when I was with her and when I was without her.

The reality is, your wife has ****ed your life and your marriage is over. At least in the form it’s in now, it’s over. That may mean divorce or it may mean a whole different kind of marriage.

If she married you knowing she wasn’t attracted to you, then she has never actually loved you. She loved what you could provide her. That isn’t love, and your marriage never actually existed except as a fantasy in your mind. And she did this knowingly. She stole your potential for happiness with someone that actually wanted you. She let you live a lie because she wanted what you could give her, not what you are.

If she married you and was at least somewhat attracted to you, and is now retroactively re-writing history, then she doesn’t love you now. This could be because of another man, or it could be because she’s reached some internal tipping point where her attraction for you is simply gone. It could have been gone for so long that she doesn’t remember when she used to have it.

In either case, there could be someone else. In either case, there’s a reason she’s having this conversation with you at this moment, and that trigger could be the fantasy or reality of another man. I agree you should find out. But only after you brace yourself and internalize that ultimately it does not matter. Anything she does no longer matters. What matters - and the only things in your control - is what you do.

It sounds like you’re still having a back and forth about this. This needs to end. I recommend you put a capstone on this by having a critical conversation with her. 

Center yourself so that you will not lose emotional control. Sit her down. Some place quiet. Away from the kids and other people. Say something like:

“I understand that you are not attracted to me, and perhaps you never were. Thank you for having the courage to tell me this now. Understand that if you never were attracted to me, then you have lied to me our entire relationship, and you have stolen years of my life away. I have misplaced my trust and faith in you. You are not the person I thought you were. I thought you had integrity. I thought we were building a life together. I thought you wanted me. You do not, and say you never have. This is an ultimate betrayal and I am reconsidering this marriage. I have also noticed that you are spending a tremendous amount of time on your phone, and I have to think there is someone else in your life. If there is, I will ask you to tell me now. If you say there isn’t, know that my trust in you has been shattered by all this, and I’m going to ask you right now to give me your phone and show me who you’ve been chatting with.”

If she refuses or gets angry, your marriage is already over. If you find something on her phone, your marriage is already over. You probably don’t even need to look on her phone, the look on her face when you ask for it will tell you what you need to know. Observe her carefully. Objectively.

If you don’t find anything, know that your marriage - at least in it’s current form - is already over.

But only do this if you’re 100% focused on your path of self-improvement no matter what she says, what she does, or who she’s doing things with. 

Once this conversation is over, disengage. Don’t talk to her if at all possible. Keep it to logistics about the kids, house, finances, etc. Be gone a lot. Do positive things. Become a gym rat. Eat super clean. Meditate. Hang with buddies. Don’t give explanations for what you’re doing. Don’t ask permission to be gone. Consider asking her to sleep in another room. 

This needs to be a critical time. She needs to know that you’re disengaging, and she needs to know what her life is going to be like without you in it.

But even more than that, you need to start walking the path.


----------



## CraigBesuden

I’d ask her why she has suddenly decided to tell you. Ask her whether it’s just a coincidence that she’s been on the phone constantly.

Another thing: your wife may not find you interesting. She may not find your personality attractive. You’re a nice guy but don’t trip her trigger.

If you end things, you’ll be in a good place in the dating market. It’s the kids who will suffer.


----------



## Yeswecan

soincrediblylost said:


> On top of that, I am really busy, working from 9-5 and then doing school in the evenings (9 - Midnight) at least 3-4 nights a week, if not 5 — which means that she is a 'homework widow' (as she puts it) and we don't spend as much time together as I would like during the school year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking it as a wake up call, I have been eating super clean (and even small portions) and going to the gym every day, and have lost about 15 lbs.
> *HELP!*


Other then the internet game playing that distracts your W and she is probably conversing with someone else, read what I pulled from your post. You are at work and school all day but have the time to run to the gym once your wife states she is not attracted to you. How is that? As a H and W 15-20 must be taken each week together as a couple and not distractions. You need to prioritize you marriage. 

Concerning the game playing, throw the fricking console out the window. Video gaming has assisted in ruining marriage like nothing else.


----------



## BluesPower

soincrediblylost said:


> Another reply that makes a lot of sense. It's weird: it's like, if you weren't attracted to me, why did you stay married to me for 12 years? Why did we have two kids together? (You don't have kids together with someone you're not attracted to, right?)


This part of your post shows how naïve you are. Yes women do this all of the time. And frankly, they lose attraction to their mates more than males do over all... 

And Oh, yeah, she is having at least an emotional affair with somebody, gamer, or who knows... 

But she IS HAVING AN AFFAIR...


----------



## Mybabysgotit

I've noticed quite often (happened to several of my friends) that women settle down for marriage with the best and safest option rather than the guy they are physically attracted to but are more or less losers. What they believe at the time is that sex, attraction and arousal are not that important in a marriage as "those things fade anyways", or they believe that in time, attraction will be there. It's very sad for both parties when this happens as each spouse loses.

So is what ends up happening is she gives the husband duty sex as little as possible to keep the husband happy. The problem with this is that each time she does this, she loses a little bit of herself. At one point, she can no longer keep giving herself like this and she either has an affair, gets out of the marriage or finally breaks down to her husband. It looks like your wife did the latter.

I don't think this has anything to do with sexual satisfaction (even if you were don juan, she still couldn't get her brain to come around to feeling sexually excited around you and without that, sex will never be great or rewarding for her). 

The good news is you are young still so you have your whole life ahead of you, the bad news is your life is going to really suck for awhile. I know it's a lot easier to say than do, but you have to start thinking hard about separation. 

I will tell you that eventually you'll find someone who does find you attractive and has all the qualities you are looking for. Please don't think you'll get the attraction back from her, it's not happening and if you stay, you'll grow to be more miserable as the years pass.


----------



## Deejo

My viewpoint is same ... but different. 

Whether or not your wife is cheating NOW, is moot. She just broadcast to you, in very clear terms that you don't do it for her. So ... believe her. And believe that it's likely she neither wants, nor intends to remain celibate for the remainder of her life, while playing family with 'her best friend'.

You should be operating under the presumption that your spouse is attracted to someone other than you. Again, who it is, and why is pretty immaterial. You can chase your tail around on this forever should you choose to. Or ... as others have indicated, you start making choices for you, your life, and the lives of your kids.

My other advice, start making her LESS comfortable, rather than bending over backwards to be more accommodating, and hoping to win back her favor through good behavior. 

Be around less. Do more for you ... and kids ... without her. 

Make no mistake, I actually think it's great that your wife was honest with you. That in itself is a big deal. But ... don't conflate that honesty with a willingness on her part to fix what is broken. If anything, from her perspective, giving you the heads up has actually freed her up to pursue other avenues of interest.

Sorry this is happening to you. I can tell you unequivocally, there are plenty of people on the site that can relate to your circumstances. I'm certainly one of them. 

I can also confirm for you that there is another side to the plight you currently find yourself in.


----------



## Mybabysgotit

Deejo said:


> My viewpoint is same ... but different.
> 
> *Whether or not your wife is cheating NOW, is moot.* She just broadcast to you, in very clear terms that you don't do it for her. So ... believe her. And believe that it's likely she neither wants, nor intends to remain celibate for the remainder of her life, while playing family with 'her best friend'.
> 
> You should be operating under the presumption that your spouse is attracted to someone other than you. Again, who it is, and why is pretty immaterial. You can chase your tail around on this forever should you choose to. Or ... as others have indicated, you start making choices for you, your life, and the lives of your kids.
> 
> My other advice, start making her LESS comfortable, rather than bending over backwards to be more accommodating, and hoping to win back her favor through good behavior.
> 
> Be around less. Do more for you ... and kids ... without her.
> 
> *Make no mistake, I actually think it's great that your wife was honest with you.* That in itself is a big deal. But ... don't conflate that honesty with a willingness on her part to fix what is broken. If anything, from her perspective, giving you the heads up has actually freed her up to pursue other avenues of interest.
> 
> Sorry this is happening to you. I can tell you unequivocally, there are plenty of people on the site that can relate to your circumstances. I'm certainly one of them.
> 
> I can also confirm for you that there is another side to the plight you currently find yourself in.


This. Doesn't matter one way or another if she's cheating. If she is cheating it might be a lot better as then you'll be able to move on easier. There is ZERO need to go to marriage counseling; attraction is one thing a MC cannot fix.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Mybabysgotit said:


> This. Doesn't matter one way or another if she's cheating. If she is cheating it might be a lot better as then you'll be able to move on easier. There is ZERO need to go to marriage counseling; attraction is one thing a MC cannot fix.


It only doesn't matter if OP is choosing divorce. Right now he's choosing reconciliation, and if that's what he's going to pursue he needs to know the truth to have any chance at success. Divorce may be inevitable, but if he wants to fight for R he has to know what he's fighting against.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Cheating. 

She came out with this crap now, because either she has your replacement lined up, or she has already replaced you.


----------



## Mybabysgotit

Nucking Futs said:


> It only doesn't matter if OP is choosing divorce. Right now he's choosing reconciliation, and if that's what he's going to pursue he needs to know the truth to have any chance at success. Divorce may be inevitable, but if he wants to fight for R he has to know what he's fighting against.


My point is that he can't or shouldn't be in this relationship at any cost. Noboby in this scenario should. Life is full of tough decisions, but it's only those decisions and consequences that builds our character and makes us stronger. His only chance at happiness is to get out, otherwise, it's some form of purgatory. Some men are okay with that, i'm not one of them.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Mybabysgotit said:


> My point is that he can't or shouldn't be in this relationship at any cost. Noboby in this scenario should. Life is full of tough decisions, but it's only those decisions and consequences that builds our character and makes us stronger. His only chance at happiness is to get out, otherwise, it's some form of purgatory. Some men are okay with that, i'm not one of them.


I don't disagree, and if he ends up in R I'll be stepping away from the thread, but he has said he doesn't want to D, and it's his call. Well, hers too, but if he's going to let her cheat and continue to support her why would she leave? 

If he's going to pursue R, he should do it in the most effective way possible, and I don't see any good reason to leave him with no tools to work with. All he's doing right now is the pick me dance, and that's like trying to solder a resistor to a board with a lawn mower.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

How exactly the hell do you R with someone who doesnt want you?? Seems like a ridiculous act of self abuse....


----------



## Casual Observer

3Xnocharm said:


> How exactly the hell do you R with someone who doesnt want you?? Seems like a ridiculous act of self abuse....


She does "want" him, just more as a best friend, brother, life partner, whatever. The only hope for reconciliation would be some way of kindling a flame that never existed. That's tough. That's also incredibly ego-deflating. Any guy who doesn't see the huge issues in that is delusional. If that isn't the most-severe gut punch ever, what is? 

But things can't go on as they have. He'd be constantly wondering if she's found what he lacks in someone else, and even perhaps rationalize that it's OK for her to pursue something that he can't provide.

I still want to know her history though. Is this a case of someone who married the "safe" guy as a way to escape a lifestyle/relationships that she felt she enjoyed too much and felt guilty about? What does he know about her past? And when did he know it? Perhaps she was even risk-driven, and the chance of pregnancy added the only excitement to sex, but now that she's settled down and no more kids, even that's gone?


----------



## wilson

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's painfully apparent *why* he's not hearing any of this bull**** until now. Because *up until now*, he was good 'enough' for her.
> 
> Up until _now_.
> 
> But something much shinier has gotten her attention and _now _she just wants to be roommates and bestest friends with her husband. But don't worry, OP. She still wants you to support her financially and she still wants all the *benefits *of marriage, she just doesn't want to invest in you emotionally or physically anymore.


A term for this is "relative deprivation". An example might be how everyone was really happy with their tube TV's until HD and flat panel TVs came along. Then suddenly that 36" tube TV is a piece of crap with a horrible picture. Or you're very happy with your car until you go to the car show and see the latest models and features. Then suddenly your car is an unreliable piece of crap that you never liked. The same thing happens with relationships. You're happy in your current relationship, but then some shiny new exciting person shows interest in you and your current partner suddenly seems old and boring.


----------



## Noble1

Sorry to hear about your situation.

The bottom line as mentioned by many people is that you need to find out what's on her phone and who she is talking to.

Check her daily timeline very carefully and see if there is any chance at all she is physically getting "out" (even 5 minutes here and there).

The other question I have is did your wife let you know any reason at all she suddenly wanted something different in the bedroom? Your wife got the idea somewhere. Some sources will be good and other not so good for your situation.

The new "toys" she got - are they similar to what you/she/both of you had before? Are they significantly different in any way?

Your wife gave you a fair heads up, so make the most of it and find out what there is going on behind the scenes.

Good luck.


----------



## Livvie

3Xnocharm said:


> How exactly the hell do you R with someone who doesnt want you?? Seems like a ridiculous act of self abuse....


Right. It's not even reconciliation. It's-- do I choose to remain in a marriage where it's out in the open I'm nothing but a brother/friend to the other person?


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

3Xnocharm said:


> How exactly the hell do you R with someone who doesnt want you?? Seems like a ridiculous act of self abuse....


I was about to ask the same question.

How the hell do you 'reconcile' when your wife claims she just wants to be your platonic buddy going forward? What's to 'reconcile?'

I think the term for that would actually be "settling."


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

wilson said:


> A term for this is "relative deprivation". An example might be how everyone was really happy with their tube TV's until HD and flat panel TVs came along. Then suddenly that 36" tube TV is a piece of crap with a horrible picture. Or you're very happy with your car until you go to the car show and see the latest models and features. Then suddenly your car is an unreliable piece of crap that you never liked. The same thing happens with relationships. You're happy in your current relationship, but then some shiny new exciting person shows interest in you and your current partner suddenly seems old and boring.


Also known as GIGS. "Grass is Greener Syndrome."


----------



## SunCMars

soincrediblylost said:


> I froze her out for a bit while I was processing, she was crying a lot; said she doesn't want to lose her best friend or ruin her marriage, but wanted to be honest with me about what she was feeling. Don't know what to make of that.


This is either a cry for help because she is separating from you, from a comfortable past.

Or it is a cry for help, uttered, said from a guilty conscience. She has wronged you behind your back.

One of the game chatterers has bumped her off center.

A cry for help it is....

Find out what has caused this.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


That is the biggest load of bull****. She wants to keep you as plan B if pal A, her affair partner, does not pan out.
Grow some balls a drop the ziggy on her and have her served. Right now she is in control, if you file, the status quo changes.
If you want to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. Trust me on that one I turned the tables on my FWW.

Keep doing what you are doing and you will not accomplish a thing. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Wake up brother! She is playing you!


----------



## Casual Observer

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> That is the biggest load of bull****. She wants to keep you as plan B if pal A, her affair partner, does not pan out.
> Grow some balls a drop the ziggy on her and have her served. Right now she is in control, if you file, the status quo changes.
> If you want to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. Trust me on that one I turned the tables on my FWW.
> 
> Keep doing what you are doing and you will not accomplish a thing. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
> 
> Wake up brother! She is playing you!


I have problems with absolutes, and she may very well not be playing him. The worst problem with this particular absolute is, if she's not playing him, that really doesn't make things much better, but in the OP's mind, he might think otherwise. 

He's in a really terrible place right now, whether she's cheating or not, because if she hasn't yet, she might down the road. And if she doesn't down the road, it's still likely he is looking at a lifetime filled with her feeling a strong resentment towards him, and the path she chose. There is nothing good here.


----------



## colingrant

Her strategy is probably to keep you around (she doesn't want to divorce you) while she explores (affairs) other men she's attracted to determine if long term possibility exists with them. Not until then, will she put into motion her plan to exit the marriage by sitting you down one day and say, I love you, but I'm not in love with you. 

Translated, I want to be with someone I'm passionately in love and lust with and you're not that person. By the time you hear this, the affair would have been well under way and she's considered another person as one she'd like to explore further or more seriously. 

The thing about her telling you she's not attracted to you is in my mind, a preemptive strike to assuage her forthcoming guilt, as she knows where this is heading and would feel much better about herself if she can say, "hey, I told you I wasn't attracted to yoy." Additionally, while not necessarily intentional, anyone told that they're not attractive by their own spouse is so distraught at the idea of it being a possibility, they're knee jerk reaction is to hang onto them, as they're as emotionally weakened and unable to fend for themselves, imo.

Which is why the pick me dance is sadly, the immediate response by the BS out of emotional desperation of putting things back together, and unknowingly reassuring the WS that they will stand by their side, which just gives the WS free reign to complete the personal devastation of the marriage and BS. Sad to see this play out so predictably. 

I'm not going to sit here and predict this is how your situation will play out, but just laying it out for you so that you can see for yourself and can react with less surprise and shock, although those feelings will most certainly run its course if things get to the level of what I've explained above. Lastly, sometimes it's easier to tell someone what not to do, so I'll keep it simple for you.

1) Do not feel reassured by what she is saying. For someone in or on the verge of an affair, the strategy is to throw you off from what's really happening by confusing you with words. DO NOT GO BY WORDS REGARDLESS HOW MUCH YOU TRUST HER AND HOW LONG. ONLY GO BY ACTIONS AND IN SOME CASES NON ACTIONS. 

2) Don't act as if you're lucky to be with her and willing to reconcile if you think something is going on.

3) If her actions are shady, do not ask or confront. You want to observe, record and pretend you aren't even on to her. 

4) Lastly, if after time, you have undisputed evidence of her cheating, again, do not give her the gift of reconciling until you know what and who you are reconciling with. Just be quiet, say nothing and promise nothing. If she wants to be with you this will scare the daylights out of her. If she doesn't let her go, as you can't nice a woman who wishes to be with someone else to be with you out of pity and begging. Sounds good, but it is an enabling act, not a disabling one. 

This is all pure projection, and possibly completely meaningless to your situation. But in case it's not, apply it as you see fit.


----------



## Sparta

She’s definitely cheating there’s no doubt about it start implementing 180 hard. Get used to doing your own think. you’re going to be doing it anyways after you divorce her.!


----------



## sokillme

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


What you guys have is a business partnership not a marriage. You are a man in her life whom she is not attracted to but is expected to provide for. You know who that normally is reserved for? A father. What a terrible thing to do to someone. 

If you want that for the rest of your life well that is your choice. I know for me if my wife told me that we would be on the path to divorce. 

The truth is she is probably cheating. Your story has all the signs.


----------



## CraigBesuden

She'sStillGotIt said:


> wilson said:
> 
> 
> 
> A term for this is "relative deprivation". An example might be how everyone was really happy with their tube TV's until HD and flat panel TVs came along. Then suddenly that 36" tube TV is a piece of crap with a horrible picture. Or you're very happy with your car until you go to the car show and see the latest models and features. Then suddenly your car is an unreliable piece of crap that you never liked. The same thing happens with relationships. You're happy in your current relationship, but then some shiny new exciting person shows interest in you and your current partner suddenly seems old and boring.
> 
> 
> 
> Also known as GIGS. "Grass is Greener Syndrome."
Click to expand...

The grass is always greener over the septic tank.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Mybabysgotit said:


> I've noticed quite often (happened to several of my friends) that women settle down for marriage with the best and safest option rather than the guy they are physically attracted to but are more or less losers.


I hope that’s not too common. There are other options than physically unattractive beta males and hot, sexy loser alphas. You can marry a somewhat attractive good guy.


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## 3Xnocharm

There IS no “saving the marriage” here. There is only.. remaining married. When your wife is not attracted to you, that makes it a friendship, not a marriage. 

Ask her who her boyfriend is. She’ll need a place to go when you kick her cheating ass out. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StarFires

CraigBesuden said:


> I hope that’s not too common. There are other options than physically unattractive beta males and hot, sexy loser alphas. You can marry a somewhat attractive good guy.


So many people are defining "attraction" in the same way CraigBesuden does in this quote, but I don't believe that's necessarily what she means. This implied definition refers only to how a person looks and how their looks are perceived by the opposite sex. But that's too narrow a definition. It implies that people who don't fit into the standard consciousness of what is pretty and sexy or handsome and sexy, or who do fit into the definition of downright ugly cannot possibly be considered attractive. It also implies that those people cannot be considered sexually attractive.

But none of that is true. And none of it means a person cannot become sexually attractive regardless of their looks. Maybe for men, looks are equated with sexual attraction. But for a lot of women, we can be sexually turned out by someone whether we are attracted to their looks or not. If/when that happens, we become sexually attracted to that person despite his looks not being all that appealing. Conversely, a woman may be attracted to Mr. Goodlooking but if he doesn't do anything for us in bed, we lose, or never gain, sexual attraction even though we remain attracted to his looks because he's still Mr. Goodlooking.


----------



## Spicy

OP, have you uncovered any more information?

Also, if you can, please answer the questions I asked you in my last post. We are here to help. I understand it is overwhelming to hear so many of us telling you she is cheating. We could be right, we could be wrong. Either way, you have decisions to make. We can assist you if you end up wanting to R or if you choose to D. 

Without information from you, we can barely help. Take advantage of the anonymous forum and get as much insight as you can. We want what is best for you and your family.


----------



## Andy1001

soincrediblylost said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your input.
> 
> For some more context, here are some text messages she’s sent me in the last few days as we’ve been discussing things:
> 
> “I have read about ‘lost’ attraction, as well, but it doesn’t help me, since it’s not a change. It’s just never been there. It’s not something I’m working to get back.
> I can’t tell you how many times I have begged God to just ‘fix’ me. Show me what to do to feel the way I’d like to feel. But...maybe it’s not a necessity. I do love you. I will support you and care for you and cheer you on and be the very best friend and partner that I can. I just don’t know what to do to feel attraction. If you’re ok without that sort of intimacy, then...so am I.”
> 
> And another:
> 
> “I don’t want to divorce, and it’s not that I don’t love you.”
> 
> Does that change the color of anything for anyone? Anything I’m missing in those statements?


I think that she is eventually going to tell you that you are not her “soulmate” or some similar bs. 
She will try and convince you that it’s not uncommon in a marriage that one spouse isn’t attracted to the other sexually but wants the marriage to work. She will bravely put her own feelings aside and suffer the indignity of having to be with you. Again bs.
She is a cheat. She has cheated you out of a happy life with a woman who would love you wholeheartedly because she felt that you were a safe choice for a husband or else she is cheating now with someone else and is rewriting history to justify her treacherous behavior. 
Don’t be surprised if you find out she’s communicating with someone else on a daily basis. This will be her soulmate and even if they never meet you will always be plan B in her mind. 
Plan B never becomes plan A.


----------



## TJW

As usual, @She'sStillGotIt has still got it.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> she's trying to do a little damage control is all, trying to soften the blow for you and trying to fluff things up a bit so she doesn't come off as cold and ruthless as she really IS for what she's doing.


And, most likely, what she was doing before your marriage, and all during it. She was pretending to be attracted, pretending, feigning desire. She's telling you, straight out, that "it was never there".



She'sStillGotIt said:


> You married a selfish, self absorbed woman who has no problem devastating you while expecting you to happily _continue _being married to her in your new role as "friend *only*, provider, father, and spider killer."


Yes.... why, please tell me WHY you're not completely happy with this ? Your wife has completely given herself permission to be a liar and con artist for 12 years..... just keep on killin' those spiders.... she will "care for" you, etc.....

I think my Bostonian boss said "...hahss $hit"....


----------



## TJW

Andy1001 said:


> She is a cheat. She has cheated you out of a happy life with a woman who would love you wholeheartedly because she felt that you were a safe choice for a husband


Totally correct.



Andy1001 said:


> Plan B never becomes plan A.


Yep. Ask me. BTDT.


----------



## soincrediblylost

Welp, I hate to say it, but most of you were right.

I sat her down the other night and, calmly, told her that I wanted the truth, and this was her time to be honest with me about everything. She looked me square in the eyes and told me she had been faithful, and there was nobody else in the picture.

Today, after reading through your guys’ follow up posts (thanks to all who have contributed, even when it hurt to hear), I saw her old phone (from a few months ago) sitting in the office, tucked out of the way. Realizing that the phone would probably have her game and chat apps on it, I opened it up and took a look.

Most of it was inane game chatter, but there was one thread, with a tattooed ******* named Sean (the complete opposite of who I am) that confirmed my worst fears. They were flirting, using a “teacher/student” scenario, and talking about where to touch/lick each other like it was a sexy anatomy class. (She specifically mentioned something about him touching her clit.)

So...that’s it. You were right. She was having an EA.

She was at the craft store during all this (I was tracking her location), and I sent her a picture of her phone and said “you probably shouldn’t have left this laying around. You want to tell me who the **** Sean is? I can’t believe you. Guess I better call a lawyer and get the papers drawn up.”

Via text, she apologized, said it was a one-time thing on her part; that she felt bad about it, and regretted it as soon as it happened (which is BS, because she sent him three more messages with kissy faces and winks and waves in the days following - this was back on April 24th-30th). I told her that I don’t believe for a second that this was a one-time thing. She says she was feeling alone and neglected because I was so busy with work and school (which I was), and it was a lapse in judgement, and that she’s sorry.

I don’t know what to do next, guys. I am so ****ing disgusted and sick to my stomach and angry and just...all kinds of screwed up right now. I’d kick her out of the house right now, but I think I’d rather go for a drive and try and clear my head and figure out my next move rather than make a big scene in front of the kids.

(Speaking of which, we’re supposed to leave for a family vacation, to see my best friend – who is aware of the situation – and his family in 3 days...I don’t know that I can do it. The kids are all excited to go; we’re close with their family, and if we bail, we lose a bunch of money and our kids lose their fun vacation for the summer. I’m torn on what to do.)

Any (more) advice is appreciated. Thanks, gang.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I’m so sorry, I hate it when we are right. You are right not to believe her story and make sure you dig deep into that phone while you have it. There is likely much more to find. 

As far as your upcoming trip, take the kids and leave her home. Go have a good time. You can decide how you feel and what to do when you get back. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

soincrediblylost said:


> Welp, I hate to say it, but most of you were right.
> 
> I sat her down the other night and, calmly, told her that I wanted the truth, and this was her time to be honest with me about everything. She looked me square in the eyes and told me she had been faithful, and there was nobody else in the picture.
> 
> Today, after reading through your guys’ follow up posts (thanks to all who have contributed, even when it hurt to hear), I saw her old phone (from a few months ago) sitting in the office, tucked out of the way. Realizing that the phone would probably have her game and chat apps on it, I opened it up and took a look.
> 
> Most of it was inane game chatter, but there was one thread, with a tattooed ******* named Sean (the complete opposite of who I am) that confirmed my worst fears. They were flirting, using a “teacher/student” scenario, and talking about where to touch/lick each other like it was a sexy anatomy class. (She specifically mentioned something about him touching her clit.)
> 
> So...that’s it. You were right. She was having an EA.
> 
> She was at the craft store during all this (I was tracking her location), and I sent her a picture of her phone and said “you probably shouldn’t have left this laying around. You want to tell me who the **** Sean is? I can’t believe you. Guess I better call a lawyer and get the papers drawn up.”
> 
> Via text, she apologized, said it was a one-time thing on her part; that she felt bad about it, and regretted it as soon as it happened (which is BS, because she sent him three more messages with kissy faces and winks and waves in the days following - this was back on April 24th-30th). I told her that I don’t believe for a second that this was a one-time thing. She says she was feeling alone and neglected because I was so busy with work and school (which I was), and it was a lapse in judgement, and that she’s sorry.
> 
> I don’t know what to do next, guys. I am so ****ing disgusted and sick to my stomach and angry and just...all kinds of screwed up right now. I’d kick her out of the house right now, but I think I’d rather go for a drive and try and clear my head and figure out my next move rather than make a big scene in front of the kids.
> 
> (Speaking of which, we’re supposed to leave for a family vacation, to see my best friend – who is aware of the situation – and his family in 3 days...I don’t know that I can do it. The kids are all excited to go; we’re close with their family, and if we bail, we lose a bunch of money and our kids lose their fun vacation for the summer. I’m torn on what to do.)
> 
> Any (more) advice is appreciated. Thanks, gang.




****ty man. I’m sorry. 

It actually changes very little in the long run, even though it hurts more now. But at least you know what you’re dealing with. 

Here’s what I recommend. When she gets home, tell her she’s sleeping somewhere else. Another room, a friends place, her parents, or on the couch. But the marriage bed is off limits to her. Then stop talking to her at all. 

Spend your time being gone. Ignore her phone calls and texts. Ignore any conversations about your marriage. She is dead to you except about the kids. 

Call a lawyer. Do everything he tells you to do. To the letter. 

Take backups of her phone. Take screenshots, anything, in case you ever need to prove what she did. Put the data on a thumb drive or in the cloud and keep it out of the house. 

Take any heirlooms that are just yours out of the house someplace safe. 

Return to your plan of self improvement. Be gone a lot. Eat well. Hit the gym. If you can’t sleep, work out. 

Be super dad. Be the dad that takes their kids to the park. For ice cream. The zoo. For anything they want. Spend time with them alone. It will help you. 

Above all; do not talk to her. Do not engage her. Do not argue with her. Fight your urges to ask her questions, she will only lie to you to minimize the damage. Your marriage is over, and the best you can hope for is a civil relationship for the sake of the kids. Aside from that she is your enemy that will mislead you at every turn if it benefits her. I guarantee there is more to this than you know. I guarantee you will never find it all out, so don’t waste any time or energy that can go into your kids, your self improvement, or your divorce. 

I can promise you that if you stay with her, you will likely regret it. If you leave her, you will not regret it in the long run. 

I’m sorry you are here.


----------



## Marduk

3Xnocharm said:


> I’m so sorry, I hate it when we are right. You are right not to believe her story and make sure you dig deep into that phone while you have it. There is likely much more to find.
> 
> As far as your upcoming trip, take the kids and leave her home. Go have a good time. You can decide how you feel and what to do when you get back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I agree. Go. Leave her. Take photos of the entire house before you go and send them to your lawyer in case she trashes it or empties it. 

Do not tell her you plan on divorcing her. Don’t tell her anything at all except she’s not welcome.


----------



## aquarius1

Is she’s still saying ILYBNILWY then this was NOT a one time thing. Something is still going on. 
Unfortunately most folks here would say if it’s not ***** Sean it’s someone else. 
And I dare say that whatever it is it’s gone PA by now. (April)

There is something called “Going 180” on the WS. Perhaps someone here has the link. Do the 180.

Get all the info you can from that phone. She will be in damage control mode now and will cover up/delete much.
I’m sorry that your vacation is now. Get as much done as you can before you go. Leave her behind yes, but as others have said, remove anything valuable and take pics of the rest.

She is trickle truth and iceberging.. She’s only admitting to what you know. 

I don’t think that you can kick her out of the marital home,but I’m sure that she would leave if requested. 

So sorry.


----------



## sokillme

soincrediblylost said:


> Welp, I hate to say it, but most of you were right.
> 
> I sat her down the other night and, calmly, told her that I wanted the truth, and this was her time to be honest with me about everything. She looked me square in the eyes and told me she had been faithful, and there was nobody else in the picture.
> 
> Today, after reading through your guys’ follow up posts (thanks to all who have contributed, even when it hurt to hear), I saw her old phone (from a few months ago) sitting in the office, tucked out of the way. Realizing that the phone would probably have her game and chat apps on it, I opened it up and took a look.
> 
> Most of it was inane game chatter, but there was one thread, with a tattooed ******* named Sean (the complete opposite of who I am) that confirmed my worst fears. They were flirting, using a “teacher/student” scenario, and talking about where to touch/lick each other like it was a sexy anatomy class. (She specifically mentioned something about him touching her clit.)
> 
> So...that’s it. You were right. She was having an EA.
> 
> She was at the craft store during all this (I was tracking her location), and I sent her a picture of her phone and said “you probably shouldn’t have left this laying around. You want to tell me who the **** Sean is? I can’t believe you. Guess I better call a lawyer and get the papers drawn up.”
> 
> Via text, she apologized, said it was a one-time thing on her part; that she felt bad about it, and regretted it as soon as it happened (which is BS, because she sent him three more messages with kissy faces and winks and waves in the days following - this was back on April 24th-30th). I told her that I don’t believe for a second that this was a one-time thing. She says she was feeling alone and neglected because I was so busy with work and school (which I was), and it was a lapse in judgement, and that she’s sorry.
> 
> I don’t know what to do next, guys. I am so ****ing disgusted and sick to my stomach and angry and just...all kinds of screwed up right now. I’d kick her out of the house right now, but I think I’d rather go for a drive and try and clear my head and figure out my next move rather than make a big scene in front of the kids.
> 
> (Speaking of which, we’re supposed to leave for a family vacation, to see my best friend – who is aware of the situation – and his family in 3 days...I don’t know that I can do it. The kids are all excited to go; we’re close with their family, and if we bail, we lose a bunch of money and our kids lose their fun vacation for the summer. I’m torn on what to do.)
> 
> Any (more) advice is appreciated. Thanks, gang.


Go on vacation without her and divorce her when you get back. Or suffer with her probably for the rest of your life. With a women who says she is not attracted to you but is willing to live with you the rest of your life with your help supporting her. Low class.

DON'T ASSUME IT'S NOT PHYSICAL. Also if this guy has a wife send her a screenshot of the the texts. 

Here are some examples.

One more thing your wife may think he loves you, but she doesn't you can't love someone and cheat on them. Don't settle for a life like that. You only get one. Seriously what's left to save. She says she loves you but cheats on you, and also tells you she is not attracted to you. Why would you waste the rest of your life in a situation like that? What is the benefit?


----------



## manfromlamancha

Is she still sticking to the "I was never in love with you and never attracted to you" story? If so, then this is still on-going or there is someone else.

If she is not truly remorseful, then this is still on-going or there is someone else.

And I agree that you probably only have found the tip of the iceberg. This could have been going on throughout your marriage. Polygraph time.


----------



## hptessla

soincrediblylost said:


> This is exactly what I've decided to do. I'm with you: I can't change her feelings or her mind. If it's made up, then there's nothing I can do. All I can do is work on me and then, hell, if she decides I'm not checking the boxes, then at least I am in the best place I can be, and ready to see what's next in life's adventures.
> 
> I made that decision this weekend: I wanted to get back to the gym and eat better, but not for her — for ME, because I was starting to feel like a stranger in my own skin. I hated getting dressed in the morning, hated all my clothes, and just want to feel confident and happy again in regards to my health and looks. So far it's working well, and I can feel every pound lost (and my self confidence is rising), so that's good.
> 
> Thanks for giving sane advice instead of jumping to the conclusion that she's already cheating on me. I appreciate that.


This is the best advice, regardless of where your wife is. Be aware that your emotions will swing more than usual because you obviously have gone through an awakening of sorts. Try to remain as steady as you can with her and with your self improvement. View it as a lifelong quest and not as a fix for any specific situation or issue.

Once you begin to accept that you have areas that need improvement you are on a road that goes on and on. Don't beat yourself up for any fails, but do pick yourself up and continue. As you discover more areas where you can improve yourself don't become discouraged and don't give into the temptation of comparing yourself to others (as better OR worse). This is a personal thing and the ideal is out of reach, while approaching the ideal is a reality. Keep in mind where you may be in 5, 10...25 years if you continue on this journey - which right now can seem accursed but which begins to change your outlook as you move along it so that you begin to look forward to the next thing you will learn about yourself and about others.


----------



## sokillme

hptessla said:


> This is the best advice, regardless of where your wife is. Be aware that your emotions will swing more than usual because you obviously have gone through an awakening of sorts. Try to remain as steady as you can with her and with your self improvement. View it as a lifelong quest and not as a fix for any specific situation or issue.
> 
> Once you begin to accept that you have areas that need improvement you are on a road that goes on and on. Don't beat yourself up for any fails, but do pick yourself up and continue. As you discover more areas where you can improve yourself don't become discouraged and don't give into the temptation of comparing yourself to others (as better OR worse). This is a personal thing and the ideal is out of reach, while approaching the ideal is a reality. Keep in mind where you may be in 5, 10...25 years if you continue on this journey - which right now can seem accursed but which begins to change your outlook as you move along it so that you begin to look forward to the next thing you will learn about yourself and about others.


You might want to read his last post.


----------



## TJW

manfromlamancha said:


> Is she still sticking to the "I was never in love with you and never attracted to you" story? If so, then this is still on-going or there is someone else.


If she was never "in love" with you, it most likely means that the "someone else" was there before your marriage, and that she has "carried the torch" all of the years since. 

Otherwise, if there is no one else, how does she know what "in love" is ?

Sorry, man. I sure hate to see this come into your life. I know how painful it is.

She owes you the truth, and she owes you a FREE WALK out of your marriage. 50-50 assets, 50-50 debts, 50-50 kids.

No more spider squashing.


----------



## Casual Observer

So if the "facts" gleaned in his last post are true, if HE believes they are true, I'm not sure how it actually changes anything from his original thinking, or what she originally said. *IF* it's only an EA then he's actually got a place to start from, if he wanted to rebuild his marriage. He finally understands her thinking, what she's willing (or was willing) to do, and can set boundaries and test for compliance. 

Not sure why, *IF* he believes it's only an EA, he's sick to his stomach. I would have suspected worse, and likely felt some sense of relief. *IF* I believed that's as far as anything had gone. Otherwise, OP finally has a bit of insight into what's going on inside her mind, what floats her boat. If he thinks there's a future with her, he's got some useful information.


----------



## TJW

Casual Observer said:


> So if the "facts" gleaned in his last post are true, if HE believes they are true, I'm not sure how it actually changes anything from his original thinking, or what she originally said.


I'm with you so far. It changes nothing at all, from what she originally said.



Casual Observer said:


> *IF* it's only an EA then he's actually got a place to start from, if he wanted to rebuild his marriage.


I'm not sure I'm with you on this. From my perspective, there is absolutely nothing upon which he can "rebuild" his marriage into a marriage which will meet HIS needs. His wife is not attracted to him, never has been, he always has been, and always will be, a "plan B provider guy". He will never be a man who is respected and desired by his wife, as long as this woman is his wife.



Casual Observer said:


> Not sure why, *IF* he believes it's only an EA, he's sick to his stomach.


An EA, or a PA, at this point, is somewhat irrelevant. He is sick to his stomach because the TRUTH has been made undeniable to him. It is D-day. He has come to the realization that his wife doesn't give a rat's a$$ about him, his emotional or physical welfare, his desires of life, his needs.

His marriage is ALL ABOUT HER, and has been, from the time it began, and will never be different in this respect. He is an OBJECT to her, a "tool" she has given herself permission to use, a paycheck-on-legs, and a spider squasher.
She has a job she wants done, and her husband is her employee with whom she will make a cheap bargain.

Her attitude, and her self-indulgence, is EXACTLY what the Lord Jesus Christ described as "adultery of the heart" in Matthew 5:28.

As far as I believe, this man has every good right to divorce her, if he chooses. I'm not saying that's necessarily the best choice, only that he has the right to.


----------



## Adelais

I can imagine that the two of you are having some serious conversations tonight. Her trying to blame you for her choice to seek attention elsewhere is just an excuse. Many men and women have spouses who are very busy, and who spend a lot of time alone (I for one) and they don't seek attention or companionship elsewhere. They suffer, but stay loyal. She CHOSE to flirt and act like a **** on the game.

She is not attracted to you and never was. The key is that she NEVER WAS attracted to you. There is nothing to work on or "get back" since it was never there to begin with. I don't know how you will be able to be married to a woman who isn't attracted to you, and who just wants to be friends. That would absolutely crush my self esteem, and my romantic desires. It would be torture to see and sleep next to someone I love who isn't attracted to me. I would eventually decide to divorce and give myself the opportunity to find someone who desires me as much as I desire him.

So sorry that your wife turned out to be a manipulative liar and a cheat. You deserve better.


----------



## TJW

Araucaria said:


> who just wants to be friends.........a manipulative liar and a cheat. You deserve better.


I fell into the "trap" of thinking perhaps I didn't deserve better. Thankfully, over time, I came to the realization that I didn't want a manipulative liar and cheat for a friend, either. She chose to not be my lover, and I chose to not be her friend.

I'm totally sad for you @soincrediblylost. I hope you can find a way out of your pain and into a good marriage to someone who isn't so self-centered.


----------



## aquarius1

TJW said:


> I'm not sure I'm with you on this. From my perspective, there is absolutely nothing upon which he can "rebuild" his marriage into a marriage which will meet HIS needs. His wife is not attracted to him, *never has been*, he always has been, and always will be, a "plan B provider guy". He will never be a man who is respected and desired by his wife, as long as this woman is his wife.


I can’t speak to his relationship in particular, but I disagree with this point. Marriage is a journey, and we pass through many phases. 
Chances are more likely that while she did have those feelings at some point, she is rewriting the marital history to justify her behaviour.
In the end, the outcome is still the same. And he has two choices. Reconcile or Divorce.


----------



## dadstartingover

The "I'm not sure I've ever had feelings for you" thing is very typical. Two things are happening:

1. Rationalizing their decision to cheat. 
2. They are so overwhelmed with the positive emotions of the affair. Everything in the world comes second. She'll ride this rollercoaster until it fizzles out, then she'll look for the high again elsewhere.


----------



## SongoftheSouth

soincrediblylost said:


> Welp, I hate to say it, but most of you were right.
> 
> I sat her down the other night and, calmly, told her that I wanted the truth, and this was her time to be honest with me about everything. She looked me square in the eyes and told me she had been faithful, and there was nobody else in the picture.
> 
> Today, after reading through your guys’ follow up posts (thanks to all who have contributed, even when it hurt to hear), I saw her old phone (from a few months ago) sitting in the office, tucked out of the way. Realizing that the phone would probably have her game and chat apps on it, I opened it up and took a look.
> 
> Most of it was inane game chatter, but there was one thread, with a tattooed ******* named Sean (the complete opposite of who I am) that confirmed my worst fears. They were flirting, using a “teacher/student” scenario, and talking about where to touch/lick each other like it was a sexy anatomy class. (She specifically mentioned something about him touching her clit.)
> 
> So...that’s it. You were right. She was having an EA.
> 
> She was at the craft store during all this (I was tracking her location), and I sent her a picture of her phone and said “you probably shouldn’t have left this laying around. You want to tell me who the **** Sean is? I can’t believe you. Guess I better call a lawyer and get the papers drawn up.”
> 
> Via text, she apologized, said it was a one-time thing on her part; that she felt bad about it, and regretted it as soon as it happened (which is BS, because she sent him three more messages with kissy faces and winks and waves in the days following - this was back on April 24th-30th). I told her that I don’t believe for a second that this was a one-time thing. She says she was feeling alone and neglected because I was so busy with work and school (which I was), and it was a lapse in judgement, and that she’s sorry.
> 
> I don’t know what to do next, guys. I am so ****ing disgusted and sick to my stomach and angry and just...all kinds of screwed up right now. I’d kick her out of the house right now, but I think I’d rather go for a drive and try and clear my head and figure out my next move rather than make a big scene in front of the kids.
> 
> (Speaking of which, we’re supposed to leave for a family vacation, to see my best friend – who is aware of the situation – and his family in 3 days...I don’t know that I can do it. The kids are all excited to go; we’re close with their family, and if we bail, we lose a bunch of money and our kids lose their fun vacation for the summer. I’m torn on what to do.)
> 
> Any (more) advice is appreciated. Thanks, gang.


1) Ask your personal attorney for the 3 best family/divorce attorneys in your area.
2) Go on the vacation with your kids and tell her she is not welcome to come.
3) Get a consultation with each of the 3 divorce lawyers your personal attorney recommends. 
4) Keep up with theplan to get in shape. Get up early run 3 miles and crank out 200 pushups before work and 200 more before bed. 

Good luck - Hooyah


----------



## CraigBesuden

If you just learned that she never loved you and was never attracted to you, can you get an annulment?


----------



## Marc878

soincrediblylost said:


> Welp, I hate to say it, but most of you were right.
> 
> I sat her down the other night and, calmly, told her that I wanted the truth, and this was her time to be honest with me about everything. She looked me square in the eyes and told me she had been faithful, and there was nobody else in the picture.
> 
> Cheaters lie a lot. Always
> 
> Most of it was inane game chatter, but there was one thread, with a tattooed ******* named Sean (the complete opposite of who I am) that confirmed my worst fears. They were flirting, using a “teacher/student” scenario, and talking about where to touch/lick each other like it was a sexy anatomy class. (She specifically mentioned something about him touching her clit.)
> 
> No one here wanted this but women don't come out and say it's over unless there's someone in the mix. This happens all the time. Nothing special except it's happening to you
> 
> She was at the craft store during all this (I was tracking her location), and I sent her a picture of her phone and said “you probably shouldn’t have left this laying around. You want to tell me who the **** Sean is? I can’t believe you. Guess I better call a lawyer and get the papers drawn up.”
> 
> I would have kept quiet and dug a bit more. Like most you probably only know the "tip of the iceberg"
> 
> Via text, she apologized, said it was a one-time thing on her part; that she felt bad about it, and regretted it as soon as it happened (which is BS, because she sent him three more messages with kissy faces and winks and waves in the days following - this was back on April 24th-30th). I told her that I don’t believe for a second that this was a one-time thing. She says she was feeling alone and neglected because I was so busy with work and school (which I was), and it was a lapse in judgement, and that she’s sorry.
> 
> More lies. They all say this bud. Then blame you for it? It's just your typical wayward behavior
> 
> I don’t know what to do next, guys. I am so ****ing disgusted and sick to my stomach and angry and just...all kinds of screwed up right now. I’d kick her out of the house right now, but I think I’d rather go for a drive and try and clear my head and figure out my next move rather than make a big scene in front of the kids.
> 
> (Speaking of which, we’re supposed to leave for a family vacation, to see my best friend – who is aware of the situation – and his family in 3 days...I don’t know that I can do it. The kids are all excited to go; we’re close with their family, and if we bail, we lose a bunch of money and our kids lose their fun vacation for the summer. I’m torn on what to do.)
> 
> Simple, leave her home and just take your kids
> 
> Any (more) advice is appreciated. Thanks, gang.


Talk gets you nothing in these situations. Right now you know one thing. She's a cheating liar. Better wake up to your new reality. Fast !!!!

It's stupid advice to not snoop and just work on yourself, yada, yada, yada. You can never fix a problem if you don't know what the problem is.

Right now you need a hard 180. Do not do the damn "pick me dance" or try and nice her back. Those methods never work and they just lower your status while making her OM look better. It's a you're weak but OM is strong thing.


----------



## Marc878

Hint: there's a lot more in her current phone but she's probably deleted it all by now. That's why on discovery you keep your mouth shut and dig more.

She's only confessing to what you know.

There's a lot more. Bank on that. 

Again, cheaters lie a lot.


----------



## Bibi1031

Thank God you found her attraction side piece! I'm truly sorry you got the speech. The speech is given when the wondering spouse is in love with someone else. That is why they love you but are not "in love" with you anymore.

You got a variation of the typical speech with the not attracted to you monkey wrench, and the was the only difference of the same old ****ty speech that ends marriages.

Your marriage is over. Her affair is a physical one! Detach from the cheater and file for divorce. She broke the vow of foresake all others when she is physical with a man she is attracted to because she sure as hell ain't attracted to you no more.

Dump her! She ain't a wife no more to you either. That cheater ain't marriage material plain and simple!


----------



## Wolfman1968

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's painfully apparent *why* he's not hearing any of this bull**** until now. Because *up until now*, he was good 'enough' for her.
> 
> Up until _now_.
> 
> But something much shinier has gotten her attention and _now _she just wants to be roommates and bestest friends with her husband. But don't worry, OP. She still wants you to support her financially and she still wants all the *benefits *of marriage, she just doesn't want to invest in you emotionally or physically anymore.
> 
> OP, I think you're trying really really hard to *delude* yourself into believing this is just some midlife crisis or moment of confusion for her and that soon, this craziness will be over. Those texts you're hoping will change our outlook on the situation to me simply sound like she's trying to do a little damage control is all, trying to soften the blow for you and trying to fluff things up a bit so she doesn't come off as cold and ruthless as she really IS for what she's doing.
> 
> My best advice to you is to STOP trying to delude yourself because you don't want to face *the truth*. This isn't rocket science. She's on the phone SO much more now and suddenly, she's all about telling you how NOT attracted to you she is and how NOT in love with you she is. And she had 12 years to tell you this and never did. Not until the all that magic phone time she's now putting in.
> 
> You think these two things are a mere *coincidence*? Come on.
> 
> You married a selfish, self absorbed woman who has no problem devastating you while expecting you to happily _continue _being married to her in your new role as "friend *only*, provider, father, and spider killer."
> 
> I'm going to assume her new 'friend' probably lives too far away for her to be meeting physically.
> 
> Lucky, luck you.



She'sStillGotIt is known for being indirect, beating around the bush, and desperately trying to spare the potential betrayed poster of losing any of their illusions. >


----------



## soincrediblylost

Well, gang — it's been a tough week. Thanks for all of your input, advice, and well-wishes.

We had a talk on Saturday night — one that was very open and lasted several hours and covered _a lot_ of ground. There were a lot of tears and emotions that came to the surface. I didn't do the _"pick me dance"_ as one poster puts it, and I told her I'm not going to stick around for a failing relationship; that if she wants out that bad, she knows where the door is.

She apologized up and down, told me she would give up her game and delete any and all chat apps, gave me the password to her main phone and handed it over to me to inspect (which I did), and said that she wants to stay together and work on our relationship, and that she is so sorry for what she's done. She swears up and down that what I saw was the only thing that happened — but I know that can't be true, and told her I knew she was lying about that. (She stuck to her story, of course.) But, to me: it's kind of irrelevant at this point. I saw what I saw, and there's no changing what happened.

So, what now?

For me, what I saw when I stepped back and took a look at everything was the totality of our marriage over the past two years: we had a perfect storm of this game coming into her life, me doing school at night and work during the day, us sleeping in separate rooms at night, and me gaining weight recently. I'm not trying to justify her behavior (what she did is ****ed up and we all know it), but I can also see how things got to the point they did, honestly.

And here's the reality of the thing, guys: we have two beautiful children, and we care so deeply for them. We don't want to break our family up. Despite what has happened, we still love and care for each other. I am not perfect, either, for the record; I had turned to porn to fill the void in our love life (which also contributed to my inability to perform in bed when things _did_ occasionally light up), so I'm not much better than her. We were both making mistakes and doing crap we shouldn't have late at night — and it all traces back to a loss of intimacy and feelings of loneliness and separation.

After our talk Saturday night, we held each other for a bit and just enjoyed the silence. And then, because of how we were laying, and how nice it felt to be together and touching each other, we took it up and notch — and had some of the most mind-bending sex of our lives. 

Then we did it again the next night.

And then the night after that.

We haven't been like that since we first met! Like a couple of damn teenagers! I was on my A game, she was bringing the heat...it was like everything was brand new again. Unbelievable.

After all that, I asked her last night if her initial conversation with me (about not being attracted to me) had changed in any way; she said it absolutely had, and she felt more attracted/romantically connected to me than ever before. (She read my mind and said everything felt brand new again to her, too.)

So, we decided to take things day-by-day, work through the hurt and do everything we can to re-establish trust, and make some changes. The game is off of her phone now. The chat apps are deleted. I have her phone password, and her permission to check her phone whenever I wish. We agreed (for both of our sakes) to get a nice phone charging station for the kitchen and place both of our phones there to charge overnight; no more phones in bed. We also agreed to keep phones out of the bathroom, as well. We are looking at setting up sessions with a marriage counselor to work through our remaining feelings and make sense of ourselves and see how we can bring our best to the relationship and make it stronger than ever before.

So...I guess that's the end of the thread. We chose reconciliation over divorce. We chose to keep our family intact. We chose to work out the issues and come together.

I'm well aware that many of you are going to say _"you're a schmuck and a pushover – she's a liar and she's going to do it again."_ Is that possible? Yeah, it is. I can't rule it out, obviously. But, I'd rather have given things a try, and give her a second chance; I'd like to be able to tell my kids that I did everything I could to keep our family together, and gave their mother a chance for redemption when she needed it most (should something go wrong in the future and it doesn't work out). Rest assured: if it happens again, or I find anything suspicious, she won't get another chance, of course...but for now, I am choosing to work on forgiving her and making our marriage stronger, rather than pushing her away and ending it all.

Thanks again, everybody, for walking with me through this situation. I appreciate you all so much.


----------



## Nucking Futs

soincrediblylost said:


> Well, gang — it's been a tough week. Thanks for all of your input, advice, and well-wishes.
> 
> We had a talk on Saturday night — one that was very open and lasted several hours and covered _a lot_ of ground. There were a lot of tears and emotions that came to the surface. I didn't do the _"pick me dance"_ as one poster puts it, and I told her I'm not going to stick around for a failing relationship; that if she wants out that bad, she knows where the door is.
> 
> She apologized up and down, told me she would give up her game and delete any and all chat apps, gave me the password to her main phone and handed it over to me to inspect (which I did), and said that she wants to stay together and work on our relationship, and that she is so sorry for what she's done. She swears up and down that what I saw was the only thing that happened — but I know that can't be true, and told her I knew she was lying about that. (She stuck to her story, of course.) But, to me: it's kind of irrelevant at this point. I saw what I saw, and there's no changing what happened.
> 
> So, what now?
> 
> For me, what I saw when I stepped back and took a look at everything was the totality of our marriage over the past two years: we had a perfect storm of this game coming into her life, me doing school at night and work during the day, us sleeping in separate rooms at night, and me gaining weight recently. I'm not trying to justify her behavior (what she did is ****ed up and we all know it), but I can also see how things got to the point they did, honestly.
> 
> And here's the reality of the thing, guys: we have two beautiful children, and we care so deeply for them. We don't want to break our family up. Despite what has happened, we still love and care for each other. I am not perfect, either, for the record; I had turned to porn to fill the void in our love life (which also contributed to my inability to perform in bed when things _did_ occasionally light up), so I'm not much better than her. We were both making mistakes and doing crap we shouldn't have late at night — and it all traces back to a loss of intimacy and feelings of loneliness and separation.
> 
> After our talk Saturday night, we held each other for a bit and just enjoyed the silence. And then, because of how we were laying, and how nice it felt to be together and touching each other, we took it up and notch — and had some of the most mind-bending sex of our lives.
> 
> Then we did it again the next night.
> 
> And then the night after that.
> 
> We haven't been like that since we first met! Like a couple of damn teenagers! I was on my A game, she was bringing the heat...it was like everything was brand new again. Unbelievable.
> 
> After all that, I asked her last night if her initial conversation with me (about not being attracted to me) had changed in any way; she said it absolutely had, and she felt more attracted/romantically connected to me than ever before. (She read my mind and said everything felt brand new again to her, too.)
> 
> So, we decided to take things day-by-day, work through the hurt and do everything we can to re-establish trust, and make some changes. The game is off of her phone now. The chat apps are deleted. I have her phone password, and her permission to check her phone whenever I wish. We agreed (for both of our sakes) to get a nice phone charging station for the kitchen and place both of our phones there to charge overnight; no more phones in bed. We also agreed to keep phones out of the bathroom, as well. We are looking at setting up sessions with a marriage counselor to work through our remaining feelings and make sense of ourselves and see how we can bring our best to the relationship and make it stronger than ever before.
> 
> So...I guess that's the end of the thread. We chose reconciliation over divorce. We chose to keep our family intact. We chose to work out the issues and come together.
> 
> I'm well aware that many of you are going to say _"you're a schmuck and a pushover – she's a liar and she's going to do it again."_ Is that possible? Yeah, it is. I can't rule it out, obviously. But, I'd rather have given things a try, and give her a second chance; I'd like to be able to tell my kids that I did everything I could to keep our family together, and gave their mother a chance for redemption when she needed it most (should something go wrong in the future and it doesn't work out). Rest assured: if it happens again, or I find anything suspicious, she won't get another chance, of course...but for now, I am choosing to work on forgiving her and making our marriage stronger, rather than pushing her away and ending it all.
> 
> Thanks again, everybody, for walking with me through this situation. I appreciate you all so much.


Before you get too satisfied with your situation you should google "hysterical bonding".


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## aquarius1

Hoping for everyone's sake that this works out. Best of luck. We will be here if you need us.


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## Casual Observer

Nucking Futs said:


> Before you get too satisfied with your situation you should google "hysterical bonding".


The flip side is that you could almost consider the first 6 months to maybe 2 years of most relationships to be "hysterical bonding." Another name for the honeymoon period. And given how she says she felt about him early on... no lust, no attraction... it is possible that she's actually found something in him now that floats her boat. Possible. 

A lot of mistakes are made, a lot of things overlooked, in that first 6-24 months of a relationship. Let's hope that those mistakes were made in the past for this couple. That both now have their eyes wide open.


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## Marduk

Nucking Futs said:


> Before you get too satisfied with your situation you should google "hysterical bonding".




Came here to say this.


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## Nucking Futs

Casual Observer said:


> *The flip side is that you could almost consider the first 6 months to maybe 2 years of most relationships to be "hysterical bonding."* Another name for the honeymoon period. And given how she says she felt about him early on... no lust, no attraction... it is possible that she's actually found something in him now that floats her boat. Possible.
> 
> A lot of mistakes are made, a lot of things overlooked, in that first 6-24 months of a relationship. Let's hope that those mistakes were made in the past for this couple. That both now have their eyes wide open.


No, you can't. It's not another name for the honeymoon period. Like the honeymoon period it's hormone driven, but it's not the same hormones. I'm not going to put a lot more into this, HB doesn't last long but I suspect this poster will go a couple of years before he realizes what's actually happened. But here's an excerpt from the first google response.



Business Insider said:


> Neo says you may start to do things you wouldn't normally do as a way of coping. For instance, seducing your partner with adventurous sex.
> 
> In psychology, there are two main forms of coping: problem-focused coping and emotion-focused coping. Problem-focused coping involves actions you take towards solving a problem, whereas emotion-focused coping is anything that makes us feel better, from talking, to drinking and drugs, to sex.
> 
> "Hysterical bonding may be a form of emotional-focused coping," said Neo. "When we are very stressed, and our whole world has been thrown off-kilter, the human being does a lot of very strange things."
> 
> The person may also believe that if they use up all their partner's "reserves," then they won't have the energy or desire to look elsewhere again.
> 
> It depends on what state the relationship was in before.
> If the relationship was a bad or toxic one, or if your partner was abusive, it can be easy for the victim to blame themselves for everything that went wrong. That includes their partner cheating on them.
> 
> 
> "They might think, 'It's because I was a prude, or because I didn't have enough sex,'" Neo said. "Suddenly... you realise it's all unravelling, and it's not working anymore. So that might be a wakeup call for doing something you would never associate yourself with."
> 
> In more severe cases of abusive relationships, the partner may have gaslighted the victim into thinking everything is their fault. Sometimes, they will even think the cheating is a punishment for their incorrect behaviour.
> 
> "It could be a form of masochism," Neo said. "If someone's mistreated you, it reinforces the idea that you're not good enough, or these words we don't say out loud — 'I'm worthless, I deserve to be treated badly.' So how do you reinforce this idea? You let yourself get hurt again by this person."
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/hysterical-bonding-after-breakup-2017-11


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## CraigBesuden

aquarius1 said:


> Hoping for everyone's sake that this works out. Best of luck. We will be here if you need us.


Agreed. I’m hoping for the best.


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## wilson

I hope you guys make it. When things settle down, consider renewing your vows. When a couple first get married, they have no clue what they're getting into. They have no clue what those words in the vows really mean. But once you've been through all this, you know what marriage should be. Renew your vows and really take the words to heart and work to make your marriage what it should be.


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## Marc878

Beware false R's happen all the time.


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## Noble1

Hope everything works out for you and you get to build a new and better marriage.

Trust but verify.

Good luck.


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## Marduk

Marc878 said:


> Beware false R's happen all the time.




And many of them are fueled by hysterical bonding. 

Typically lasts somewhere from a couple days to a couple weeks. 

Just like most promises do that are never actually intended to be followed through, New Years resolutions, diet plans, or gym memberships. 

His wife isn’t going to go from not being attracted to him to be a nymphomaniac for him forever just by him reading her chat logs. Nothing structural has changed for her except she’s temporarily afraid, so the odds of going back to her old behaviour are high. 

Everything structural for him has changed - he’s been told she’s never been that into him, and discovered she’s been lying to him systematically, and unfaithful by some measure as well. 

There’s likely more to come for him, but I very much hope to be wrong.


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## farsidejunky

OP, that you think this is the end shows how ill prepared you are for reconciliation.

Doing it right takes years, not months...or in your case, days.

I sincerely hope it works for you. We will be here should your gut again start telling you that things aren't right. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

farsidejunky said:


> OP, that you think this is the end shows how ill prepared you are for reconciliation.
> 
> Doing it right takes years, not months...or in your case, days.
> 
> I sincerely hope it works for you. We will be here should your gut again start telling you that things aren't right.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Some of us will also be here, 5 years down the road, maybe 10, hoping to read how the TAM jury was wrong, that sure, it was a struggle at times, but it worked out and you both feel the right choice was made.


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## 3Xnocharm

Marduk said:


> And many of them are fueled by hysterical bonding.
> 
> Typically lasts somewhere from a couple days to a couple weeks.
> 
> Just like most promises do that are never actually intended to be followed through, New Years resolutions, diet plans, or gym memberships.
> 
> *His wife isn’t going to go from not being attracted to him to be a nymphomaniac for him forever just by him reading her chat logs. Nothing structural has changed for her except she’s temporarily afraid, *so the odds of going back to her old behaviour are high.
> 
> Everything structural for him has changed - he’s been told she’s never been that into him, and discovered she’s been lying to him systematically, and unfaithful by some measure as well.
> 
> There’s likely more to come for him, but I very much hope to be wrong.


THIS right here is reality. No one magically becomes attracted to someone they werent before. She is playing the long game. But I guess if he needs to feel beyond a doubt that he tried, then this is what he needs to do.


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## Deejo

Here is your simple guide.

The way you chose to conduct your relationship previously did not foster a growing, loving, relationship.

So ... if you fall back on that in 10, 30, or 300 days, it will likely yield the same result.

I'll reiterate, make some goals for yourself ... outside of the scope of the relationship.

Let her do the work, rather than enabling her to do the work. 

You seem like a nice guy.

Which is exactly what concerns me.


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## Casual Observer

This is probably a topic for an entirely new thread, but... since so many here are worried this guy's going to go down the rabbit hole a second time and the R isn't going to work out...

For those who chose to R and it didn't work out, how did they feel about it afterward? Was the devastation as bad the second time, or did it seem like not that big a deal compared to the first? In other words, aside from the shame of having to face the TAM jury, how big was the downside to an unsuccessful R? How long did it take to become obvious?


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## Deejo

I believe if the parties both see reconciliation as a desirable and viable outcome, they should pursue that.

The issue we do see consistently is one party wants it ... and the other party is simply trying to avoid the consequences of actually ending the marriage.


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## Casual Observer

Deejo said:


> I believe if the parties both see reconciliation as a desirable and viable outcome, they should pursue that.
> 
> The issue we do see consistently is one party wants it ... and the other party is simply trying to avoid the consequences of actually ending the marriage.


Do you sense that here? Obviously we're only getting things from one side, but it appears, unless he's become completely blind to reality after a couple of hot sweaty nights, that both want to pursue reconciliation.


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## sokillme

Oh if life were only this easy. I'm sorry man, some times you just have to learn the hard way. 

Your wife is having and affair and cruelly told you she has never been attracted to you. A few nights of apologies and some guilt sex after she got caught isn't going to fix those things in the long run. You don't have the first idea what she has been doing yet or who she is. 

I suspect once the shock wears off you will want to know. I also suspect it's not over, just on hold until things calm down. 

But maybe I am wrong. If not we will be here to help you deal.


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## Rubix Cubed

Deejo said:


> I believe if the parties both see reconciliation as a desirable and viable outcome, they should pursue that.
> 
> The issue we do see consistently is one party wants it ... and the other party is simply trying to avoid the consequences of actually ending the marriage.





Casual Observer said:


> *Do you sense that here? *Obviously we're only getting things from one side, but it appears unless he's become completely blind to reality after a couple of hot sweaty nights, that both want to pursue reconciliation.


 You are kidding, right? @Casual Observer why are you trying so hard to swim upstream on this whole thread. You act as if you haven't read any of the other stories here.
This is a gold standard example of one-sided R. The OP has made it clear he wasn't going to divorce and demonstrated his naivety from the first post. he's codependent. His wife lied to his face and cheated on him but miraculously turns into the perfect sex-crazed wife *AFTER* getting caught and told him she had no attraction to him, but magically that developed when her lifestyle became threatened. Not only that, the OP found evidence from April, confronted her while she was out which gave her time and opportunity to delete any incriminating evidence from her current phone. Of course he didn't find anything. He has played just about everything the opposite of how he should have and didn't believe the majority here until he had to and he doesn't believe the majority now. Unfortunately, the time will come where he'll discover the majority was right again. He thinks everything is peachy because of some hysterical bonding and his wife telling him it is after she lied directly to his face, right before he discovered the truth. 
@soincrediblylost You should get your wife to take a polygraph. It doesn't really matter how accurate they are as long as your wife thinks they are. She will admit to more before the poly. A parking lot confession, but that still won't be close to the whole story. It will be just enough for her to hope you'll drop the poly. Just make sure you don't. After the poly, if you discover a physical affair then you will want to get tested for STDs and possibly have your kids DNA tested. If you do none of this which I expect you won't then at least do this. You said you were in IT, get some data recovery software like Fonelab and do a data recovery on her current phone. Try to find the chat logs that she deleted.


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## manwithnoname

soincrediblylost said:


> Welp, I hate to say it, but most of you were right.
> 
> I sat her down the other night and, calmly, told her that I wanted the truth, and this was her time to be honest with me about everything. She looked me square in the eyes and told me she had been faithful, and there was nobody else in the picture.
> 
> Today, after reading through your guys’ follow up posts (thanks to all who have contributed, even when it hurt to hear), I saw her old phone (from a few months ago) sitting in the office, tucked out of the way. Realizing that the phone would probably have her game and chat apps on it, I opened it up and took a look.
> 
> Most of it was inane game chatter, but there was one thread, with a tattooed ******* named Sean (the complete opposite of who I am) that confirmed my worst fears. They were flirting, using a “teacher/student” scenario, and talking about where to touch/lick each other like it was a sexy anatomy class. (She specifically mentioned something about him touching her clit.)
> 
> So...that’s it. You were right. She was having an EA.
> 
> She was at the craft store during all this (I was tracking her location), and I sent her a picture of her phone and said “you probably shouldn’t have left this laying around. You want to tell me who the **** Sean is? I can’t believe you. Guess I better call a lawyer and get the papers drawn up.”
> 
> Via text, she apologized, said it was a one-time thing on her part; that she felt bad about it, and regretted it as soon as it happened (which is BS, because she sent him three more messages with kissy faces and winks and waves in the days following - this was back on April 24th-30th). I told her that I don’t believe for a second that this was a one-time thing. She says she was feeling alone and neglected because I was so busy with work and school (which I was), and it was a lapse in judgement, and that she’s sorry.


Not sure I understand this...flirting via text was a one time thing, or did she meet him and did he meat her?


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## TJW

soincrediblylost said:


> we had a perfect storm of this game coming into her life


Life brings us "storms". One could hope that we learn to "ride" the storm, persevere, and move toward our partner rather than away.



soincrediblylost said:


> I'd like to be able to tell my kids that I did everything I could to keep our family together, and gave their mother a chance for redemption when she needed it most (should something go wrong in the future and it doesn't work out).


I, personally, do not believe this idea comes from Schmuckdom. I think this is a Godly motive and highly applaud this choice on your part.

I was called a schmuck, too. Still am. I made this choice. And, I want to tell you this. It's now been 33 years since I made it. I've looked in the mirror lots of times over those 3-1/3 decades. I've never seen the schmuck. I don't regret that choice one bit.

I don't think you will, either.

Best. Again, I'm sorry you have to endure the pain of it. You don't deserve it.


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## Nucking Futs

TJW said:


> Life brings us "storms". One could hope that we learn to "ride" the storm, persevere, and move toward our partner rather than away.
> 
> 
> 
> I, personally, do not believe this idea comes from Schmuckdom. I think this is a Godly motive and highly applaud this choice on your part.
> 
> I was called a schmuck, too. Still am. I made this choice. And, I want to tell you this. It's now been 33 years since I made it. I've looked in the mirror lots of times over those 3-1/3 decades. I've never seen the schmuck. I don't regret that choice one bit.
> 
> I don't think you will, either.
> 
> Best. Again, I'm sorry you have to endure the pain of it. You don't deserve it.


I don't think anyone here has a problem with giving her a chance. The problem is he accepted the first story he was told, went into a ***** coma, and is now busily sweeping it under the rug. It's very unlikely she won't continue her wayward ways without being forced to come clean and work on herself and the marriage. And you've been here long enough to know that there's virtually no chance he has the truth yet.


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## sokillme

> we had a perfect storm of this game coming into her life


This is the kind of thinking that gets you cheated on 10 years later. Cheating happens because of a character deficiency nothing else. Unless the person who cheated works hard to change those things that cause them to act in that way, you are subject to having it happen again. Besides that, usually the character deficiency spreads into all area's of their life. Sooner or later like a junky it's all going to come crashing down. 

Proceed at your own risk.


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## Ursula

Hey @soincrediblylost, welcome to TAM, and I’m sorry that you find yourself here. I haven’t read any of the replies yet, but wanted to say a couple things regarding your post.

First off, kudos to you for taking your health seriously and working towards a healthier lifestyle!

Now to answer some of your questions:
1. Yes, I think she’s looking elsewhere, and it might be within that game she’s playing. I would keep an eye on her gaming for the time being. Does she tend to hide her phone screen from you? Did she change her password recently?

2. She might need really good sex, but really good sex is different for everyone. Are you guys sexually compatible? By how you described the recent oral sex, new toys, etc., I would say that this is more about sex than she’s letting on.

3. No, your losing weight is definitely not in vain; keep on going with the new healthy lifestyle! Think of it like this: lose the weight for YOU, and if she’s happy with it, great; if not, then that’s her loss. We’re given one body to live in for our entire lives, and it’s smart to take care of that body and treat it well.

4. I don’t think your marriage is doomed at this point (unless there are new developments here that I’ve yet to read about). But, you guys do need to work on your marriage. Have you thought of couple’s counselling?

5. Romance in a marriage varies. Do you know your wife’s love language? Does she know yours? If not, take the quiz: https://www.5lovelanguages.com/quizzes/ It’s important to speak in each other’s love language so that the other person feels appreciated. Case in point: my XH and I had entirely different love languages. I spoke to him in his language, and he also spoke to me in HIS love language (not mine). It left me feeling pretty crappy. I’m dating someone now though who ironically shares my love languages, we speak to each other with them and get along great. Learn each other’s language!

6. I can’t answer your question about sparks after having kids, as I’m not a Mom. I would imagine that it could be done, though it might take a little more effort.

7. I suppose attraction can be found after years of being together, but if she doesn’t have it now, it might not change much. I would guess that she found you attractive at one point, and I would also guess that someone else has caught her eye, and she’s fantasizing about him instead.

Like your wife, I wasn’t attracted to my now XH. I actually was never attracted to him though, and married him to fill a certain need in my life (no, it wasn’t sex). He married me for similar reasons. Love, attraction, passion was never a part of our relationship, even while dating; it was all about convenience for both of us, and convenience doesn’t make for a strong marriage.


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## Marduk

sokillme said:


> This is the kind of thinking that gets you cheated on 10 years later. Cheating happens because of a character deficiency nothing else. Unless the person who cheated works hard to change those things that cause them to act in that way, you are subject to having it happen again. Besides that, usually the character deficiency spreads into all area's of their life. Sooner or later like a junky it's all going to come crashing down.
> 
> Proceed at your own risk.




I agree with this. Unless something structural changes with the person that demonstrated a lack of accountability, then nothing really has been resolved. 

The additional problem, from a purely logical perspective, is that if someone has demonstrated a pattern of deception, then how can you be sure they’re actually making these changes even if they appear to be doing so?


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## manfromlamancha

A polygraph would be a good idea if, and only if, she believed that if she fails there would be dire consequences AND if she believed that you would go through with them. Then she might confess to more just before the poly.


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## Mybabysgotit

sokillme said:


> Oh if life were only this easy. I'm sorry man, some times you just have to learn the hard way.
> 
> Your wife is having and affair and cruelty told you she has never been attracted to you. A few nights of apologies and some guilt sex after she got caught isn't going to fix those things in the long run. You don't have the first idea what she has been doing yet or who she is.
> 
> I suspect once the shock wears off you will want to know. I also suspect it's not over, just on hold until things calm down.
> 
> But maybe I am wrong. If not we will be here to help you deal.


You're not wrong.


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## Marc878

My take. Rugsweep (probably didn't get the full story, truth) and Dosent seem to be fixing the underlying issues. Hence a repeat down the road could be likely.

Jumping into R immediately from what I've seen leaves a higher chance of a repeat.

Hope OP doesn't get to learn the hard way. 

She put him in this spot but it is up to him on how he deals with it.


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## Marduk

If you need a polygraph to believe your spouse, your marriage is already over.


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## aquarius1

My point of view on this is as follows...do I think he's being strung along? Definitely. 
Is his *** gonna hit the floor in the future (sooner rather than later?) Definitely. 
Will he come back and say that everyone here was right? I'm betting 98-99% yes.

The point is this: he is not in a position to listen to ANYONE's advice right now. He simply doesn't want to. So to throw out suggestions is more for our benefit than his.

Having raised teenagers the principle is the same. Don't tell me what to do. I can handle this myself.

All any of us can do is wish him the best, but be here to catch him if (when) he falls back into reality. I can't predict the future (if I could I would buy a lotto ticket)

But we can all be here to support when it happens.


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## Casual Observer

aquarius1 said:


> My point of view on this is as follows...do I think he's being strung along? Definitely.
> Is his *** gonna hit the floor in the future (sooner rather than later?) Definitely.
> Will he come back and say that everyone here was right? I'm betting 98-99% yes.
> 
> The point is this: he is not in a position to listen to ANYONE's advice right now. He simply doesn't want to. So to throw out suggestions is more for our benefit than his.
> 
> Having raised teenagers the principle is the same. Don't tell me what to do. I can handle this myself.
> 
> All any of us can do is wish him the best, but be here to catch him if (when) he falls back into reality. I can't predict the future (if I could I would buy a lotto ticket)
> 
> But we can all be here to support when it happens.


"When" it happens is a foregone conclusion? I'm still holding out hope that a reconciliation is possible. I still think you can create a scenario in which the potential upside is enough to offset the potential downside. 

But yes, I would have been so heartbroken to hear my wife say such things. Especially since I may be living a variation of what he's going through. No possibility of infidelity in my variation, but there doesn't have to be for it to be similar. Looking back, it's clear I was the "safe" choice, not the exciting/lustful/whatever choice. That doesn't mean she didn't fall in love with me, or isn't in love with me now. But it's not quite the gig I thought I had signed up for. We're working on that.


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## TJW

Casual Observer said:


> I still think you can create a scenario in which the potential upside is enough to offset the potential downside.


And, there is a potential upside for him even if his wife never actually changes her mind and focuses on him rather than her mind-games and adulteries. He will have done RIGHT by his wife and his kids, even when his wife is doing WRONG. He may not be rewarded by his wife, but his reward will come in the form of having no regrets and doing all that was possible to save his family.



Casual Observer said:


> But it's not quite the gig I thought I had signed up for. We're working on that.


Interesting.... if I were giving you advice, I'd tell you to not waste your time. Because that has been my experience. But, yours may be different. I can't say.... but I hold out hope for you.....


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> But it's not quite the gig I thought I had signed up for. We're working on that.


Same here... it's rather disappointing, but at least I have lovely children... and we are not working on it...


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## Casual Observer

TJW said:


> And, there is a potential upside for him even if his wife never actually changes her mind and focuses on him rather than her mind-games and adulteries. He will have done RIGHT by his wife and his kids, even when his wife is doing WRONG. He may not be rewarded by his wife, but his reward will come in the form of having no regrets and doing all that was possible to save his family.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.... if I were giving you advice, I'd tell you to not waste your time. Because that has been my experience. But, yours may be different. I can't say.... but I hold out hope for you.....





In Absentia said:


> Same here... it's rather disappointing, but at least I have lovely children... and we are not working on it...


I do have hope. Working on finding a marriage counselor today, and hoping for success in that endeavor as our 40th anniversary is this Sunday. Funny that "hope" is mentioned, because to me, "hope" and anticipation of something special are the things I key on, while they're pretty dead to her. I've written previously how she cannot anticipate a pleasurable experience, which causes her to lose out on so much, and makes her pretty tone-deaf to the emotions of others. I think her past was something she was so desperate to move on from because she was caught in a cycle of constantly needing something (a guy) to look forward to, to live for to the next day or two or whatever. I was slow & steady & safe. Once she realized she didn't have to manipulate me to be around (almost in a literal physical sense), she was able to break that cycle and move on. 

I wonder if that might have been the case with the OP here? The difference though is this- ironically, my wife did marry someone very HD, and I never, ever, let sex get back-burnered like so many here. If that had happened, the marriage would have ended. The sex that came out of that, for years, decades, was (kind of obviously?) not all that great. But it was tit for tat so to speak. I had/have enough things she wanted that it was worth it to her. And then we get to that crazy moment several months ago when the whole world came crashing down because I discovered that her immediate past prior to meeting me was so different than she'd said, and everything hit the fan, including a whole lot of resentment on her part. 

I know this isn't my thread, but please wish me some luck & peace in the days ahead.  And perhaps some day we can have a thread all about being the "safe choice" when that's not what you thought was happening.


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> And perhaps some day we can have a thread all about being the "safe choice" when that's not what you thought was happening.


I wasn't a "safe choice", but she (my wife) turned out not to be what I thought she was, and viceversa, I'm sure... being parents to our children just killed us. We weren't probably well equipped for that.


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## TJW

Casual Observer said:


> And perhaps some day we can have a thread all about being the "safe choice" when that's not what you thought was happening.


*This Thread* is recently active and is close to the subject. The "safe choice" is mentioned along that thread.

And, none of us go into marriage thinking that we are a "plan B". In fact, that must be obfuscated in order to get us to the marriage. None of us would say "I do" to being the "safe choice".

It seems that the OP's wife has only recently understood that marriage under her conditions is a highly-selfish choice which has no consideration for her husband and his needs at all. It's all about her, always has been. Time will tell whether she can move into a more unselfish mode.....but I'm very afraid that her actions and statements of recent times are "toothpaste out of the tube" which will eat her marriage alive....


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## Spotthedeaddog

I've said it too many times before. Look up symptoms of female mid life crisis. There's a drop in hormones at certain age and that affects physical and intimacy desires. Also relationship and social status affect it as well. Learn them, use that famed human brain to outwit them, or allow natural to take its course.

Cuddling someone releases oxytocin and estrogens. Having sex or acting physically increase/releases testosterone. Losing fights reduces testosterone, blocks dopamine, and releases cortisol. Women having sex results in significant increases of oxytocin, estrogen, and testosterone; not having sex reduces these things - having physical connection with someone you dont like or dont feel like touching/being with, is the same as losing a fight. These dont just change your levels, they change the way the body responds and _desires_, well before the conscious mind registers the feeling or emotion, these hormones are change the very potential for desire.

Learn to manage them in tandem for ecstatic experience.


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## Spotthedeaddog

In Absentia said:


> Same here... it's rather disappointing, but at least I have lovely children... and we are not working on it...


Just what do you think you're signing up for? Self-made playboy millionaires with secure companies not needing their attention spewing limitless passive wealth, with social connection to the best balls who plays golf and takes sporting trips in tropical and exotic islands while the staff take care of everything and have no emotion requirements are the stuff of fantasy books. And Ken is a plastic doll, who doesn't mind being tossed in the box when you're not using him.


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## In Absentia

spotthedeaddog said:


> Just what do you think you're signing up for?


Nothing... it was just me being a hopeless romantic... :nerd:


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