# Don't Know Why She Wants to Leave



## GTJ0

We were married on Thanksgiving Day just over eleven years ago. A while ago she said she needed to dedicate more time to building up her professional practice, and began sleeping in her professional studio rather that at home. In fact, her practice was not building substantially, she said she didn't want to be married anymore. I don't know why. On one occasion she said we had to separate for the sake of her mental health (eight years ago she was hospitalized for 11 days for a psychotic episode). On another occasion she told me that we have to break up our marriage because then-Judge Kavanaugh was nominated and confirmed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and that many men are raping women. The most recent time I tried asking she just screamed her head off. My sense is that she is suffering from disorganized thought, and possibly is being unduly influenced by others (perhaps by others seeking to be a new suitor). After the stay in the mental hospital, she became an alcoholic, getting drunk and passing out regularly, and that, too, might be contributing. But I just can't figure out what it is that is truly driving her, and as a result, I don't know how to address any possible grievances. We're supposed to start discernment counseling later this week, and I hope that will help, but I am stymied for getting her back.


----------



## sokillme

You ever think maybe she is just an *******? Divorce her and move on. Life is way to short.


----------



## EleGirl

From your description of your wife, she sounds mentally ill. Does she have any family who you could talk to about all of this?


----------



## BioFury

My advice would be to consult a psychiatrist. Your wife does not appear to be mentally sound.


----------



## aine

GTJ0 said:


> We were married on Thanksgiving Day just over eleven years ago. A while ago she said she needed to dedicate more time to building up her professional practice, and began sleeping in her professional studio rather that at home. In fact, her practice was not building substantially, she said she didn't want to be married anymore. I don't know why. On one occasion she said we had to separate for the sake of her mental health (eight years ago she was hospitalized for 11 days for a psychotic episode). On another occasion she told me that we have to break up our marriage because then-Judge Kavanaugh was nominated and confirmed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and that many men are raping women. The most recent time I tried asking she just screamed her head off. My sense is that she is suffering from disorganized thought, and possibly is being unduly influenced by others (perhaps by others seeking to be a new suitor). After the stay in the mental hospital, she became an alcoholic, getting drunk and passing out regularly, and that, too, might be contributing. But I just can't figure out what it is that is truly driving her, and as a result, I don't know how to address any possible grievances. We're supposed to start discernment counseling later this week, and I hope that will help, but I am stymied for getting her back.


GTJ0, sorry you are being put through all of this. Sounds like your wife has BPD or even worse is schizophrenic? She really has some major issues, not of your making. You may be setting yourself up for a life time of pain with her.
Ask her to get mental health advice to diagnose her problem. Tell her if she wants to spend more time sleeping in her office she can do so but then she no longer needs to be your wife, she can choose. It does sound that there might be someone sniffing around. Get a PI to follow her.

What is discernment counseling?

She has major issues. Give it 6 months to sort out, if not run for the hills.


----------



## Wolfman1968

One thing---if she is descending into mental illness, this could become very difficult or even dangerous for you. Without successful treatment, she could become increasing implacable towards you, and might even revise history in her mind--to the point of falsely accusing you of abusive behavior.


----------



## EleGirl

One thing to consider is that even if she is suffering from some mental illness, she has the right to decide what she wants. And you need to respect her choices. 

Does she still live in the same house as you do? It's not clear from your post if she does.


----------



## Mr.Married

There will be pain in both staying with her and in divorcing. I reckon the time frame will be MUCH shorter if you just drop and run.

Look at the post by Wolfman1968. Keep in mind this can very well happen.

I have relatives that have been there. It gets VERY messy....very fast.


----------



## Violet28

Sounds like schizophrenia.


----------



## MattMatt

GTJ0 said:


> We were married on Thanksgiving Day just over eleven years ago. A while ago she said she needed to dedicate more time to building up her professional practice, and began sleeping in her professional studio rather that at home. In fact, her practice was not building substantially, she said she didn't want to be married anymore. I don't know why. On one occasion she said we had to separate for the sake of her mental health (eight years ago she was hospitalized for 11 days for a psychotic episode). On another occasion she told me that we have to break up our marriage because then-Judge Kavanaugh was nominated and confirmed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and that many men are raping women. The most recent time I tried asking she just screamed her head off. My sense is that she is suffering from disorganized thought, and possibly is being unduly influenced by others (perhaps by others seeking to be a new suitor). After the stay in the mental hospital, she became an alcoholic, getting drunk and passing out regularly, and that, too, might be contributing. But I just can't figure out what it is that is truly driving her, and as a result, I don't know how to address any possible grievances. We're supposed to start discernment counseling later this week, and I hope that will help, but I am stymied for getting her back.


Sleeping in her professional studio? Really? By herself or with someone? And was she sleeping at the studio or at a hotel or at the home of someone?

She is virtually accusing you of being a rapist or at the very least a potential rapist. Beware. She might decide to accuse you of rape. You need to carry a Voice Activated Recorder with you when interacting with her.

Your wife is not suffering from disorganised thought, she is potentially very seriously mentally ill and possibly dangerously ill.

Discernment Counselling (https://discernmentcounseling.com/) looks lovely. It really does. But it is designed to support a couple where one person wants the marriage to continue and the other is ambivalent in regards to the continuation of the marriage.

I'm not sure it is designed to counsel a couple where the one spouses says weird stuff like: "We need to separate because of Judge Kavanaugh! And because many men are raping women!"

She needs urgent referral to a psychiatrist (NOT a counsellor or a psychologist, your wife's problems are beyond their pay grade) and perhaps more in patient treatment.

Is she on psychoactive medication? If she is and if she is consuming large amounts of alcohol, that could cause problems.

We'll be here for you. Please keep us up-to-date.


----------



## GTJ0

sokillme said:


> Divorce her and move on.


While I appreciate the advice, a substantially difficulty with it is that I am Catholic. We were very careful when we were preparing to be married, and this is a valid marriage without any grounds for a finding of nullity. As a result, we will remain married until one of dies. Even if we were to remain separated, I would be obligated to remain alone, never being involved with anyone else. Moreover, our vows were to be faithful to each other, "in good times and in bad," and this is one of those "bad times." Walking away is not a good option because the promise I made to God and my wife, not to mention the personal consequences thereof.


----------



## TJW

GTJ0 said:


> Walking away is not a good option because the promise I made to God and my wife, not to mention the personal consequences thereof.


I faced problems which were not as clinical as your wife's, but made a similar choice for similar reasons. Walking away is not always the best choice. The choices are not between "good" and "bad", just between "bad" and "worse".

Let your faith in God keep you, and seek professional help for your wife.


----------



## GTJ0

BioFury said:


> My advice would be to consult a psychiatrist. Your wife does not appear to be mentally sound.





EleGirl said:


> From your description of your wife, she sounds mentally ill. Does she have any family who you could talk to about all of this?


It has been almost eight years now since she was hospitalized, and has not had any acute breaks since then. What I see seems to be "disorganized thought," a characteristic that I understand is more associated with schizophrenia than with psychosis (but not being a medical professional I would not venture too far with speculation). I think the problem may be exacerbated because is literally surrounded by people (including clients) with radical political beliefs that are diametrically opposite of my more traditional views, and she may be getting confused over the differences (I remember several months ago she woke me in the middle of the night, all upset with the newly-installed president having fired many of the politically-appointed ambassadors who were carried over from the prior administration, and never before having had any interest at all in this subject matter). She's functional, so there's no need for hospitalization, but in my view she is periodically getting confused and disturbed. I fear that there may be others who may only be looking to get into her pants, and may be feeding the confusion. Family is giving the un-helpful refrain of supporting whatever she feels is right ("I will support whatever you decide.").


----------



## GTJ0

aine said:


> She really has some major issues, not of your making. * * * Ask her to get mental health advice to diagnose her problem.


We have both had some major issues. We were both laid off a while ago at the same time, and as a result money became a problem. And we had an accident that, for a while, prevented me from being intimate. I have also been distracted with a string of medical issues. So it hasn't been easy for either of us. My wife denies any mental health issues, though she finally admitted, just over a year ago, to having a drinking problem (unfortunately, she chose a psychologist who promotes harm reduction, rather than abstinence, so she still gets drunk, but just not as often).



> What is discernment counseling?


We had done some marital therapy, which is looking at things to make marriage better. While progress was evident, she decided we should stop so that she could leave the marriage. "Discernment counseling" is counseling designed to help a couple decide if they should try to save their marriage, typically be engaging in marital therapy, or to go separate ways. Typically, it is done where one spouse wants to remain married, and the other wants to leave, and is typically done before martial therapy (marital therapy requires two spouses who want to work on their marriage, and not have one who really is not there). Thus, the order of things is backwards here.


----------



## jlg07

You should also talk this situation over with your priest and see if there are specialists that HE would recommend for YOU to help deal with this.


----------



## GTJ0

MattMatt said:


> Discernment Counselling looks lovely. It really does. But it is designed to support a couple where one person wants the marriage to continue and the other is ambivalent in regards to the continuation of the marriage.


In fact, that difference of outlook between the two spouses is the very essence of discernment counseling. If you go back to that website, and look at the series of three videos ("join the free training") you can view its focus even more clearly.



> She needs urgent referral to a psychiatrist (NOT a counsellor or a psychologist, your wife's problems are beyond their pay grade) and perhaps more in patient treatment.


When she came out of the hospital, she was seeing a psychiatrist because there was medication being prescribed to deal with the psychosis. I would not try to rank psychiatrists against psychologists--each have their areas of expertise--but I agree that something should be done. I have tried, but have not yet been successful in getting to see one (other than for the alcoholism part).


----------



## GTJ0

jlg07 said:


> You should also talk this situation over with your priest and see if there are specialists that HE would recommend for YOU to help deal with this.


Thus far I have visited with three priests. The first was at the suggestion of our marital therapist, who was reluctant to provide us with moral advice. When I spoke with him, a priest who was visiting our local parish from Ghana, he was quite concerned, and wanted to speak with both of us. My wife did not want to meet with him with the reason being that it was too inconvenient for her. So she arranged for us to meet with a priest at a Manhattan parish. That priest then focused his discussion with us on how bad our parish is (it is in a different diocese), how he would never have allowed us to get married with that parish's preparation (his parish was much better), and then how he would help us get our marriage annulled. I returned to our local parish, spoke to another priest, who, while sympathetic, took a position that was that there's nothing you can do if someone wants to leave. It seemed that only the African priest was really supportive of the idea of pastoral care for marriage.


----------



## MJJEAN

GTJ0 said:


> While I appreciate the advice, a substantially difficulty with it is that I am Catholic. We were very careful when we were preparing to be married, and this is a valid marriage without any grounds for a finding of nullity. As a result, we will remain married until one of dies. Even if we were to remain separated, I would be obligated to remain alone, never being involved with anyone else. Moreover, our vows were to be faithful to each other, "in good times and in bad," and this is one of those "bad times." Walking away is not a good option because the promise I made to God and my wife, not to mention the personal consequences thereof.


In case you are unaware, mental illness can impact consent and/or ability to meet the duties and obligations of marriage as well as ability to establish a true marital bond. Mental illness, diagnosed before or after a marriage, can be a strong ground for nullity. It really depends on type of mental illness and whether or not your wife was diagnosed and under successful treatment at the time of your wedding.

If it gets bad and you need to consider divorce to save yourself or any children you may have I'd highly suggest speaking with a Canon Lawyer before deciding your case for nullity is hopeless.


----------



## EleGirl

GTJ0 said:


> While I appreciate the advice, a substantially difficulty with it is that I am Catholic. We were very careful when we were preparing to be married, and this is a valid marriage without any grounds for a finding of nullity. As a result, we will remain married until one of dies. Even if we were to remain separated, I would be obligated to remain alone, never being involved with anyone else. Moreover, our vows were to be faithful to each other, "in good times and in bad," and this is one of those "bad times." Walking away is not a good option because the promise I made to God and my wife, not to mention the personal consequences thereof.


Have you spoken to your priest about this? If she is not well mentally, there are some issues that could play into this. For example, with the new information it might be determined that she is was not well mental and not able to commit to marriage. That would make your marriage invalid.

I have a nephew who is schizophrenic. We can all look back and recognize that his mental illness started long before it was diagnosed. This is actually very usual.


----------



## EleGirl

Is your wife Catholic?


----------



## MattMatt

GTJ0 said:


> In fact, that difference of outlook between the two spouses is the very essence of discernment counseling. If you go back to that website, and look at the series of three videos ("join the free training") you can view its focus even more clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> When she came out of the hospital, she was seeing a psychiatrist because there was medication being prescribed to deal with the psychosis. I would not try to rank psychiatrists against psychologists--each have their areas of expertise--but I agree that something should be done. I have tried, but have not yet been successful in getting to see one (other than for the alcoholism part).


A psychologist lets people talk to them. A psychiatrist can do this. BUT! They can prescribe medication which a psychologist cannot do. They can also arrange impatient care if required.


----------



## TJW

EleGirl said:


> Have you spoken to your priest about this?


I'm not from a Catholic background, but from the Christian tradition I come from, there is a concept of God doing you a favor..... if your wife wants to leave, and does leave, she is taking the path of an unbeliever, and Paul the Apostle wrote to the Corinthians that a believer is "not under bondage in such cases" (see I Corinthians 7:15).

In Christ, we are now adults who can discern and live according to the Spirit of the law, affording each other the divine protection and trust of marriage..... we are no longer children, who must simply obey legalistically.....and, can recognize that some marital obstacles cannot be overcome and lived through. Your wife choosing to leave and leaving would be one of them. You cannot change your wife.


----------



## GTJ0

MJJEAN said:


> Mental illness, diagnosed before or after a marriage, can be a strong ground for nullity.


It can be a ground if existing prior to marriage, but not afterwards. The theory of nullity is that a valid marriage never existed. Here, a valid marriage did come into existence, and the fact that something may have come into being afterwards cannot effect what had already happened. BTW, I am a member of the bar, I have studied canon law, and I have also consulted with a canonist on this. The point as to when an infirmity to a marriage comes into being is well-settled law.


----------



## GTJ0

EleGirl said:


> Is your wife Catholic?


She had been, but now claims to be an apostate. I am not persuaded that the claim is true.


----------



## GTJ0

TJW said:


> I Corinthians 7:15


You're referring to the Pauline privilege, which applies to persons not baptized, _see_ c. 1143 § 1, which is not the case here. The applicable law here is: "A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death." _See_ c. 1141.


----------



## TJW

I understand. I come from a different church and traditions than you. You and I have in common, the comfort given by the Apostle 14 verses later in the same letter to Corinth. The time is short. Both you and I, who have wives will be as those who have none. Seek solace in this Divine promise.


May God give you courage and strength to obey His will as you understand it, and the "peace which passeth all understanding" to love your wife as she is while seeking help and improvement.


----------



## MJJEAN

GTJ0 said:


> It can be a ground if existing prior to marriage, but not afterwards. The theory of nullity is that a valid marriage never existed. Here, a valid marriage did come into existence, and the fact that something may have come into being afterwards cannot effect what had already happened. BTW, I am a member of the bar, I have studied canon law, and I have also consulted with a canonist on this. The point as to when an infirmity to a marriage comes into being is well-settled law.


Which is why I used the phrasing I did. *If* the mental illness existed before the marriage and went undiagnosed until years later or if the mental illness was present and improperly treated, a good argument could be made that consent was invalid or that your wife lacked the ability to fully understand and/or meet the duties and obligations of marriage or even that her illness prevents her from being able to form a proper marital bond with you or anyone. 

So, the question is how long has your wife been mentally ill? Is this something that was present before your marriage that went unnoticed because the symptoms weren't as severe yet? Was she, perhaps, being treated and given medications that weren't effective or that impaired her thinking and judgment? 

At the end of the day, it's really about what you believe and how you want to proceed. I'm just saying that I believe her mental illness was likely present before the marriage and could very well have impacted her ability to consent, to meet the duties and obligations of marriage, or to form a true marital bond. The only way for either of us to know would be for you to take it to the local Tribunal and get a determination, which you cant't even do until you've been divorced, which you would prefer to avoid.


----------



## GTJ0

MJJEAN said:


> *If* the mental illness existed before the marriage and went undiagnosed until years later or if the mental illness was present and improperly treated, a good argument could be made that consent was invalid or that your wife lacked the ability to fully understand and/or meet the duties and obligations of marriage or even that her illness prevents her from being able to form a proper marital bond with you or anyone.


Prior to marriage there were not signs, and we did, in fact, have deep conversations about the meaning of marriage and its indissolubility. I find it very difficult to believe that someone with a latent mental illness could both actively participate in such talks and yet not understand what they were responding to so well and coherently.



> At the end of the day, it's really about what you believe and how you want to proceed. I'm just saying that I believe her mental illness was likely present before the marriage and could very well have impacted her ability to consent, to meet the duties and obligations of marriage, or to form a true marital bond.


I believe she had the capacity to consent, and her actions are consistent with that belief. I could not, in good conscience, petition the tribunal on this ground.



> The only way for either of us to know would be for you to take it to the local Tribunal and get a determination, which you can't even do until you've been divorced, which you would prefer to avoid.


A determination of an ecclesiastical tribunal is an opinion of men, and is not infallible. Indeed, of the findings of nullity here in the United States, some 90 percent are overturned upon appeal to the Roman Rota. That raises some questions as to the reliability of our domestic legal system as being able to determine the validity of a sacramental marriage. As to the civil status, I don't care. A civil marriage is meaningless; only a sacramental marriage counts. (Indeed, with the manner in which the civil authorities have been meddling with the fundamental characteristics of marriage, what counts as a sivil marriage today cannot be counted on as being a real marriage.)


----------



## Beach123

Has she been on psych medication?

Is it possible she went off of them cold turkey? That would likely send any person into a tailspin mentally.

Check to be sure.

Also, don’t rule out other drugs she may be taking -along with the alcohol that could be detrimental.


----------



## GTJ0

Beach123 said:


> Has she been on psych medication?


Previously, risperidone, under psychiatric care. Both the drug and the medical care have since been discontinued.



> Also, don’t rule out other drugs she may be taking -along with the alcohol that could be detrimental.


I am quite positive that no illicit drugs are involved. Most of the time she is fine, mentally. But there are periodic, though infrequent, sudden outbursts that make no sense, and then she gets really angry and screams. My thoughts are that there are residual effects of the psychosis remaining that rear their heads every now and then, when something in the environment strikes. Additionally, I think there are people surrounding her who are feeding her information contrary to what she hears from me (including, _inter alia_, political thoughts from others with different views, and romantic overtures from others seeking to get into her pants), and that conflict between what she has heard from her husband and what she hears from those others might be setting her off.


----------



## BluesPower

GTJ0 said:


> Previously, risperidone, under psychiatric care. Both the drug and the medical care have since been discontinued.
> 
> I am quite positive that no illicit drugs are involved. Most of the time she is fine, mentally. But there are periodic, though infrequent, sudden outbursts that make no sense, and then she gets really angry and screams. My thoughts are that there are residual effects of the psychosis remaining that rear their heads every now and then, when something in the environment strikes. Additionally, I think there are people surrounding her who are feeding her information contrary to what she hears from me (including, _inter alia_, political thoughts from others with different views, and romantic overtures from others seeking to get into her pants), and that conflict between what she has heard from her husband and what she hears from those others might be setting her off.


This post shows that you have no understanding about mental illness. No offense. It also shows that you have ZERO idea what her condition was when you married her, I mean none. 

Mental issues at this level, almost never "appear", nor are they "residual" psychosis that just remain. 

They are signs of mental illness, of whatever kind, bi-polar, chronic depression, PTSD, and a host of others that require risperidone are not usually something that "goes away". 

While I cannot diagnose what she is dealing with, I feel confident that whatever "it" was... was not treated properly nor do I think she should have discontinued the meds. Also, I general, "risperidone" is almost never prescribed and taken by itself. It is usually prescribed as part of a "cocktail" of several drugs, to help whatever condition the patient is dealing with. 

All I am saying is that whatever mental illness she is dealing with has been with her for a while and it was probably not treated effectively in the first place...

Just food for thought...


----------



## GTJ0

BluesPower said:


> This post shows that you have no understanding about mental illness. No offense.


No offense taken; I would never want to go the medical school!

I do know that prior to the psychotic break that there were no obvious signs of anything. When it hit it came as a complete surprise. One night she walked in the door in a complete daze. She had no idea where she was, like nothing I had ever seen before. Whether it was there before, where it remains there now, I cannot say.



> While I cannot diagnose what she is dealing with, I feel confident that whatever "it" was... was not treated properly nor do I think she should have discontinued the meds. Also, I general, "risperidone" is almost never prescribed and taken by itself. It is usually prescribed as part of a "cocktail" of several drugs, to help whatever condition the patient is dealing with.


I don't know the medicine here, so I will expand a little bit. When in the emergency room, to the best of my recollection, the attending emergency psychiatrist gave risperidone alone. Later on, something else, I think something to calm her down, and alleviate anger or aggression, was given, but I cannot remember exactly what it was. After eleven days in the hospital, she was provided with a referral to a social worker. I went with her to the appointment, and the physical facilities were a dump. I was also concerned that, with medication having been prescribed, that she should be seeing a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. After that one meeting I located a local psychiatrist who was able to monitor her medication. He gradually reduced the risperidone dosage. After she stopped seeing him, and I was worried about her well-being, I went to see the psychiatrist. While he believed that she was doing O.K. at the time she stopped seeing him, he did agree that it might be good for her to come in again, if only for a "check-up." I tried to get her back, but she refused, insisting that nothing was wrong with her. More recently, she has taken the position that I am the one who is mentally ill and in need of psychotherapy. Her reasoning for my mental illness anyone with my type of political thought (which is mainstream conservatism) is, per se, mentally ill. Since my wife is not, generally, politically active, I think this line of reasoning is being fed to her by someone who wants our marriage to fail, and who may have different political thought than I have. If so, it would be cruel to use someone who is vulnerable to do so. (Yes, I am wary that I might be a bit paranoid for having this thought, but I was assured by a colleague I am not.)


----------



## MattMatt

GTJ0 said:


> No offense taken; I would never want to go the medical school!
> 
> I do know that prior to the psychotic break that there were no obvious signs of anything. When it hit it came as a complete surprise. One night she walked in the door in a complete daze. She had no idea where she was, like nothing I had ever seen before. Whether it was there before, where it remains there now, I cannot say.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the medicine here, so I will expand a little bit. When in the emergency room, to the best of my recollection, the attending emergency psychiatrist gave risperidone alone. Later on, something else, I think something to calm her down, and alleviate anger or aggression, was given, but I cannot remember exactly what it was. After eleven days in the hospital, she was provided with a referral to a social worker. I went with her to the appointment, and the physical facilities were a dump. I was also concerned that, with medication having been prescribed, that she should be seeing a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. After that one meeting I located a local psychiatrist who was able to monitor her medication. He gradually reduced the risperidone dosage. After she stopped seeing him, and I was worried about her well-being, I went to see the psychiatrist. While he believed that she was doing O.K. at the time she stopped seeing him, he did agree that it might be good for her to come in again, if only for a "check-up." I tried to get her back, but she refused, insisting that nothing was wrong with her. More recently, she has taken the position that I am the one who is mentally ill and in need of psychotherapy. Her reasoning for my mental illness anyone with my type of political thought (which is mainstream conservatism) is, per se, mentally ill. Since my wife is not, generally, politically active, I think this line of reasoning is being fed to her by someone who wants our marriage to fail, and who may have different political thought than I have. If so, it would be cruel to use someone who is vulnerable to do so. (Yes, I am wary that I might be a bit paranoid for having this thought, but I was assured by a colleague I am not.)


A lover might be feeding her this nonsense.


----------



## Ursula

GTJ0 said:


> It has been almost eight years now since she was hospitalized, and has not had any acute breaks since then. What I see seems to be "disorganized thought," a characteristic that I understand is more associated with schizophrenia than with psychosis (but not being a medical professional I would not venture too far with speculation). I think the problem may be exacerbated because is literally surrounded by people (including clients) with radical political beliefs that are diametrically opposite of my more traditional views, and she may be getting confused over the differences (I remember several months ago she woke me in the middle of the night, all upset with the newly-installed president having fired many of the politically-appointed ambassadors who were carried over from the prior administration, and never before having had any interest at all in this subject matter). She's functional, so there's no need for hospitalization, but in my view she is periodically getting confused and disturbed. *I fear that there may be others who may only be looking to get into her pants, and may be feeding the confusion.* Family is giving the un-helpful refrain of supporting whatever she feels is right ("I will support whatever you decide.").


If the bolded is the case, and you guys are both devout Catholics, how would God see her actions? My advice to you would be to talk to your Priest about your issues, and I would get help for your wife.


----------



## BluesPower

GTJ0 said:


> No offense taken; I would never want to go the medical school!
> 
> I do know that prior to the psychotic break that there were no obvious signs of anything. When it hit it came as a complete surprise. One night she walked in the door in a complete daze. She had no idea where she was, like nothing I had ever seen before. Whether it was there before, where it remains there now, I cannot say.
> 
> I don't know the medicine here, so I will expand a little bit. When in the emergency room, to the best of my recollection, the attending emergency psychiatrist gave risperidone alone. Later on, something else, I think something to calm her down, and alleviate anger or aggression, was given, but I cannot remember exactly what it was. After eleven days in the hospital, she was provided with a referral to a social worker. I went with her to the appointment, and the physical facilities were a dump. I was also concerned that, with medication having been prescribed, that she should be seeing a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. After that one meeting I located a local psychiatrist who was able to monitor her medication. He gradually reduced the risperidone dosage. After she stopped seeing him, and I was worried about her well-being, I went to see the psychiatrist. While he believed that she was doing O.K. at the time she stopped seeing him, he did agree that it might be good for her to come in again, if only for a "check-up." I tried to get her back, but she refused, insisting that nothing was wrong with her. More recently, she has taken the position that I am the one who is mentally ill and in need of psychotherapy. Her reasoning for my mental illness anyone with my type of political thought (which is mainstream conservatism) is, per se, mentally ill. Since my wife is not, generally, politically active, I think this line of reasoning is being fed to her by someone who wants our marriage to fail, and who may have different political thought than I have. If so, it would be cruel to use someone who is vulnerable to do so. (Yes, I am wary that I might be a bit paranoid for having this thought, but I was assured by a colleague I am not.)


What I am trying to say, while it may be hard to understand, I want you to open your mind. 

I have LOTS of experience in your shoes. The first thing is this. When I say that you really don't know what she was dealing with before, I mean it. 

You may THINK you saw no signs... you really do not know. You don't know what to LOOK for until you understand, as much as a lay person can, what you SHOULD be looking for. 

My Ex was basically bat **** crazy, but until I started to really learn about mental illness, I could not see the signs. After the fact, I can see all of them, every last one. 

So what I am saying is you don't know what don't know. So don't tell yourself that you KNOW she did not have issues before you were married, because you don't. You may not have known what to look for. 

Also, the bottom line is this: If she leaves she leaves. If she will not try and get help you cannot force her unless she is a danger to herself or others. 

In short, you cannot help people that refuse help and you cannot fix them...


----------



## SeattleWill

BluesPower said:


> GTJ0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Previously, risperidone, under psychiatric care. Both the drug and the medical care have since been discontinued.
> 
> I am quite positive that no illicit drugs are involved. Most of the time she is fine, mentally. But there are periodic, though infrequent, sudden outbursts that make no sense, and then she gets really angry and screams. My thoughts are that there are residual effects of the psychosis remaining that rear their heads every now and then, when something in the environment strikes. Additionally, I think there are people surrounding her who are feeding her information contrary to what she hears from me (including, _inter alia_, political thoughts from others with different views, and romantic overtures from others seeking to get into her pants), and that conflict between what she has heard from her husband and what she hears from those others might be setting her off.
> 
> 
> 
> This post shows that you have no understanding about mental illness. No offense. It also shows that you have ZERO idea what her condition was when you married her, I mean none.
> 
> Mental issues at this level, almost never "appear", nor are they "residual" psychosis that just remain.
> 
> They are signs of mental illness, of whatever kind, bi-polar, chronic depression, PTSD, and a host of others that require risperidone are not usually something that "goes away".
> 
> While I cannot diagnose what she is dealing with, I feel confident that whatever "it" was... was not treated properly nor do I think she should have discontinued the meds. Also, I general, "risperidone" is almost never prescribed and taken by itself. It is usually prescribed as part of a "cocktail" of several drugs, to help whatever condition the patient is dealing with.
> 
> All I am saying is that whatever mental illness she is dealing with has been with her for a while and it was probably not treated effectively in the first place...
> 
> Just food for thought...
Click to expand...

Speaking of having no understanding of mental illness -symptoms may not be present until an individual is in their 30s or 40s. They may display zero symptoms and the disease may come on very suddenly.


----------



## GTJ0

BluesPower said:


> In short, you cannot help people that refuse help and you cannot fix them...


That's what is frustrating. You want to do something, but you cannot always do so.


----------



## GTJ0

Ursula said:


> If the bolded is the case, and you guys are both devout Catholics, how would God see her actions? My advice to you would be to talk to your Priest about your issues, and I would get help for your wife.


My wife has dealt with it by declaring that she is no longer Catholic. I've been to a priest multiple times. As noted in a later post, you cannot always help those in need if they refuse the help.


----------



## BluesPower

SeattleWill said:


> Speaking of having no understanding of mental illness -symptoms may not be present until an individual is in their 30s or 40s. They may display zero symptoms and the disease may come on very suddenly.


It is possible, but for me, the signs were there (in this one persons), I just did not see them until it got much worse. 

For example, bi-polar can manifest as a teenager or later 20's, but it has been know to be diagnosed much later when the first actual manic episode happened. But if you looked, you usually saw some evidence of depression and also anxiety as well, but no one 'knew' or 'diagnosed' bi-polar until they had firm evidence of the first manic episode. 

So the question is were they always bi-polar or did it just happen, or did it just manifest...

I don't think that some of the docs know the answers either, and they just kind of treat what they see at the moment.


----------



## StillSearching

Just a heads up...Here in my state if your spouse is diagnosed with a mental illness they cannot sign divorce papers.


----------



## StillSearching

GTJ0 said:


> My wife has dealt with it by declaring that she is no longer Catholic. I've been to a priest multiple times. As noted in a later post, you cannot *always* help those in need if they refuse the help.


You mean NEVER!


----------



## GTJ0

StillSearching said:


> Just a heads up...Here in my state if your spouse is diagnosed with a mental illness they cannot sign divorce papers.


The law is so bad in my state that a knowingly-false affidavit is sufficient to be granted a divorce. That is, the courts have held that the statute merely requires an affidavit, and so long as there is an affidavit, the courts will not inquire as to the veracity of the affidavit. I believe that this case law is contrary to explicit text of the statute (indeed the courts have rejected the text of the statute and have substituted what they believe to have been the true intent of the legislature), which, of course, erodes one's confidence in the state's judiciary and makes a mockery of civil marriage.

That being said, I don't care about civil law. It is only the sacramental marriage that is important, and the only one that matters.


----------



## jlg07

GTJ0, there ARE valid excuses for divorcing/anullment -- maybe you should talk with a Canon lawyer? Infidelity may be one of them (may show that she didn't enter into marriage with the proper committment for a valid marriage). Maybe getting a PI to follow her for a bit will give you the information you need --


----------



## NobodySpecial

GTJ0 said:


> It has been almost eight years now since she was hospitalized, and has not had any acute breaks since then. What I see seems to be "disorganized thought," a characteristic that I understand is more associated with schizophrenia than with psychosis (but not being a medical professional I would not venture too far with speculation). I think the problem may be exacerbated because is literally surrounded by people (including clients) with radical political beliefs that are diametrically opposite of *my *more traditional views,


Woooaaaaa. You mention that YOU are Catholic not that WE (you and your wife) are Catholic. You mention YOUR traditional views. What are HER views? 




> and she may be getting confused over the differences (I remember several months ago she woke me in the middle of the night, all upset with the newly-installed president having fired many of the politically-appointed ambassadors who were carried over from the prior administration, and never before having had any interest at all in this subject matter).


Are you SURE she is CONFUSED by the views? Or by the lack of ability to explore them at home?



> She's functional, so there's no need for hospitalization, but in my view she is periodically getting confused and disturbed. I fear that there may be others who may only be looking to get into her pants, and may be feeding the confusion. Family is giving the un-helpful refrain of supporting whatever she feels is right ("I will support whatever you decide.").


What else does support look like? She is not a child. I was on board with the holy cow mental illness advice. Now I am way less sure.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GTJ0 said:


> My wife has dealt with it by declaring that she is no longer Catholic. I've been to a priest multiple times. As noted in a later post, you cannot always help those in need if they refuse the help.


Maybe she does not want help. However you manage your relationship with God, is there any problem with a civil divorce?


----------



## Beach123

Why don’t you ask for your wife to go for an extensive mental health evaluation?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Beach123 said:


> Why don’t you ask for your wife to go for an extensive mental health evaluation?


She does not want to be married to him. Why would she do that?


----------



## NobodySpecial

OP: I am not unsympathetic to the place you find yourself in. I AM concerned about what HER perspective is here. I remember screaming, seeming quite out of my mind, when my DH persisted in thinking he needed to fix me back to my previous thinking on a topic where my thinking had changed. It must be very difficult when it comes to something core like your values and your religion, your very relationship with God and the part that marriage plays in that. BUT if she has flown that coop, she has flown that coop.


----------



## Violet28

If she wants to divorce you, crazy or not, you cannot stop her. This has not been a true marriage for many years, by your own statements. If you are worried about her, let her family know but you cannot force her to seek out help unless she is a true danger to herself or others. By this I mean, she is planning to kill herself or murder other people, that is what it takes to get people hospitalized these days. You also can't force her to take meds, even in the hospital people have the right to refuse meds. Let her go and if she wants to come back to you someday, she will.


----------



## GTJ0

NobodySpecial said:


> What are HER views?


At the time we were married, we had the same views. Since then she has claimed to reject her faith and is acting as an apostate.



> is there any problem with a civil divorce?


While civil status is meaningless to me--it is the sacramental marriage that truly counts--in a larger societal context divorce is scandalous and detrimental to one's reputation.



> BUT if she has flown that coop, she has flown that coop.


I am not entirely unsympathetic with that thought. However, after having postponed marriage for some many years so as to avoid entering into a hasty marriage without truly understanding what it means, and after having long discussions with my wife-to-be on these issues, and after receiving her assurances (and even with her having inscribed our wedding bands with the phrase "never abandoned" in response), I come to conclusion that there was either fraud in the inducement or a radical change underlying these recent acts, as if it were the devil that has invaded her. I don't think there was fraud, but rather, using your words, she has "flown that coop." But that's a spouse in need, not a spouse to abandon.


----------



## GTJ0

Beach123 said:


> Why don’t you ask for your wife to go for an extensive mental health evaluation?


She denies any mental health issues.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GTJ0 said:


> At the time we were married, we had the same views. Since then she has *claimed *to reject her faith and is acting as an apostate.


How married are you? How husband are you being, if you don't hear HER? 



> While civil status is meaningless to me--it is the sacramental marriage that truly counts--in a larger societal context divorce is scandalous and detrimental to one's reputation.


I don't know what society you live in. But in the one I live in, putting on a face for society has been largely rejected.



> I am not entirely unsympathetic with that thought. However, after having postponed marriage for some many years so as to avoid entering into a hasty marriage without truly understanding what it means, and after having long discussions with my wife-to-be on these issues, and after receiving her assurances (and even with her having inscribed our wedding bands with the phrase "never abandoned" in response), I come to conclusion that there was either fraud in the inducement or a radical change underlying these recent acts, as if it were the devil that has invaded her. I don't think there was fraud, but rather, using your words, she has "flown that coop." But that's a spouse in need, not a spouse to abandon.


Time moves on. What she thought then, she does not think now. What she felt then, she does not feel now. To believe otherwise is not to act as some knight in shining armor. It is to treat her like a child.

Devil schmevil. (Weird. Is schmevil a word? No spell check squiggle.)


----------

