# sexless marriage books, curious



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Starved-...rd_wg=eg2EF&psc=1&refRID=0SCA7HFEMA536VF03BTZ 

is an example, but there are tons. Has anyone read any of these?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I've read this one. It's good.

*The Sex-Starved Wife: What to Do When He's Lost Desire* by Michele Weiner Davis 

This one if informative.

*Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It*  by Bob Berkowitz


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,

Mating in captivity - Esther Perel 

I honestly believe you can address this entire topic in 10 pages. Don’t get me wrong, I think you could add an extensive set of useful examples, and by doing so create a book length treatment. But the core concepts - 10 pages get you there. 

For example - this theme of pursuer distancer. I believe that theme is the primary driver in a huge number of sexless marriages. 

For instance, I would address what I call an edge case - meaning it is an extreme example of this phenomenon.

The pursuer gets discouraged and stops pursuing. But the distancer LIKES being chased, despite not wanting to be ‘caught’. 

So the distancer teases the pursuer in a safe manner - meaning in a public place where sex isn’t possible. And later the distancer pretends they have no idea why the pursuer is initiating. 

This is a super toxic combo of teasing AND gaslighting....

Thing is - you can only pull this off more than once - with a willing victim. 

This habit isn’t hard to break - if you are ok with the idea of your partner leaving you. 

Imagine your partner claims to not understand why this pattern of behavior is toxic. Fwiw I call it: Invite and reject 

So you make plans to go out with your friends on Friday night. And then as you get in the car, you say: I don’t feel like being social. And you get out of the car. 

At this point, you get a fairly strong negative reaction from your partner. And you just calmly say: I’m not in the mood to socialize, I’m going inside to change into shorts and a t shirt, heading to the gym. 

That approach is nearly certain to provoke fury, as it should. Invite and reject is really toxic. But I’m not done. Not even close. 

Because above - when I first said: invite and reject 

I was teasing the reader. It doesn’t describe the situation - not even close. The real descriptor is: Invite, Reject, Gaslight

That last bit is absolutely critical to opening the door to future repetition. I don’t acknowledge wrong doing therefore I’m setting the table for repetition. 

So after saying I’m changing to go to the gym - my partner melts down and I play dumb by saying: You can still go, I have NO IDEA why you are upset. Followed by me getting changed and going to the gym. 

Ten pages - max. 





NobodySpecial said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Starved-...rd_wg=eg2EF&psc=1&refRID=0SCA7HFEMA536VF03BTZ
> 
> is an example, but there are tons. Has anyone read any of these?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> 
> Mating in captivity - Esther Perel
> 
> ...


Do we believe that the distancer KNOWS this and does it on PURPOSE?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: sexless marriage books, curiousby*

Still on page one...

So now we are in the fray - this is - full blown precipice dancing - because your partner is trying to decide between killing you as opposed to just leaving you. 

Why I’m an advocate of scripted conversations. 

Pursuer: no idea why you’re upset, you see me daily, you want to see our friends - go see them. Why is it a big deal if you go by yourself?
Honestly, it’s just like sex. You flirt with me, we get home and you don’t feel like it. I can go jerk off, right. Why would either situation cause any tension?

Ok - there is one big difference - I never pretended that I didn’t agree to go. You however pretend that you didn’t invite me to have sex earlier in the evening. 





MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> 
> Mating in captivity - Esther Perel
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,

Above a certain threshold self centeredness is indistinguishable from malice. 

Which is the beauty of subjecting them to a single dose of comparable selfishness. As that will either produce an extraordinary increase in self awareness and with it empathy. Or it will catalyze an enraged denial followed by threats of dissolution.





NobodySpecial said:


> Do we believe that the distancer KNOWS this and does it on PURPOSE?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> 
> Above a certain threshold self centeredness is indistinguishable from malice.
> 
> Which is the beauty of subjecting them to a single dose of comparable selfishness. As that will either produce an extraordinary increase in self awareness and with it empathy. Or it will catalyze an enraged denial followed by threats of dissolution.


Outcome three, for the highly competitive / low empathy partner:

Retaliation / further escalation

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> 
> Above a certain threshold self centeredness is indistinguishable from malice.


Which is not what I asked. It is amazing to me what people can do with their eyes and minds completely closed to what is going on around them.



> Which is the beauty of subjecting them to a single dose of comparable selfishness. As that will either produce an extraordinary increase in self awareness and with it empathy. Or it will catalyze an enraged denial followed by threats of dissolution.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I suppose it's a bad sign. I clicked on the book links, I couldn't generate enough interest to download a cheap e-book.

I haven't finished Mating in captivity. Reading the book that is. I think the stories are the good part. 

If the distancer / gas lighter doesn't know what they are doing they must have a split from reality problem.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Outcome three, for the highly competitive / low empathy partner:
> 
> Retaliation / further escalation
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That might be the worth the price of the book right there. I would want to know that right away so I could RUN.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,

In a sex starved marriage the starved partner complains. Chronic sexual rejection/neglect makes people upset. 

So if your partner is clearly upset about the lack of sex, and you flirt with them in public, only to casually reject them later that day, it seems like either narcissism or malice. 

I fully agree that in the case of narcissism, it is solely about them. It is need, not malice. But - in this specific case - how can someone not understand that teasing a starving partner with the promise of sex - and then rejecting them - is cruel? 

Either motive in this specific transaction - produces a direct transfer of self esteem from the pursuer to the distancer. 

Subtext at maximum compression:
Distancer: Do you desire me?
Pursuer: Yes yes yes, can we connect
Distancer: No





NobodySpecial said:


> Do we believe that the distancer KNOWS this and does it on PURPOSE?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I read "What Do Women Want?" by Daniel Bergner.

It had some good insights.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Because there are different reasons for people being LD, I doubt there’s one book that covers all situations.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because there are different reasons for people being LD, I doubt there’s one book that covers all situations.


Exactly. They throw in generalities and if your issue is within the parameters it may work. 

I don't know where the pursuer distancer paradigm originated, but I doubt an LD spouse would even bother to play the game...

If people can't identify root causes, the Library of Congress won't be able to help...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Well I thought I was depressed on this topic before. Sheesh.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Well I thought I was depressed on this topic before. Sheesh.


Did you honestly think any exposition of this topic was going to take a positive turn on this site? Many of us originally discovered TAM in the first place while trying to find answers to our sexual mismatches. Few of us have.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Best book to fix sexless marriage: Check Book

sorry I could not help myself!


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

The shortest book in history:

"The best sex positions for a sexless marriage" by Dr. Clymen DeWall PhD


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## Freetown (Oct 19, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Well I thought I was depressed on this topic before. Sheesh.
> ...


But why do some of them have so many good reviews? And why not continue this topic and detail the theories of the different books. Some of them are indeed based on the same basics. 

Btw: any books that explain the origin of HD and LD? 

I ve briefly read below books but maybe I focussed on the wrong things:
- Mating in captivity (E Perel)
- The married man sex life primer
- Receiving love
- No More Mr Nice Guy
- She comes first
- Avoidant. How to love (or leave) a dismissive partner
- Love languages
- Hold me tight
- ...

I ll detail them asap


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

The key is to realize that if the techniques in any of these books are going to work, they are going to work after 3 or 6 or 9 months of implementing the technique. If they do not work in that amount of time, they are never going to work well enough to justify continued investment in the current relationship. Further effort would produce a higher return if spent finding a more compatible partner.

The most crucial concept for HDs is to accept the Fallacy of Sunk Costs. It isn't worth wasting more months or years in an unfulfilling relationship just because you already invested some number of months or years. The more time you have already wasted being with the wrong person should increase the motivation to get away from them as soon as possible, If you disagree, you aren't being noble or selfless or honorable. You are being a masochist or a scaredy-cat. Don't expect any of us to applaud your decision. And for newcomers, I say that as the biggest masochist and scaredy-cat on this site.


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## Freetown (Oct 19, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> The more time you have already wasted being with the wrong person should increase the motivation to get away from them as soon as possible, If you disagree, you aren't being noble or selfless or honorable. You are being a masochist or a scaredy-cat. Don't expect any of us to applaud your decision. And for newcomers, I say that as the biggest masochist and scaredy-cat on this site.


I see your point but I m not convinced yet. I agree there are only little success stories on TAM but I m not sure whether TAM isn t biased. Personally I still believe both I and my wife can do better. But maybe I m naive.

And is everyone really happy now with his/her second marriage? How did you find your HD partner?

Furthermore, a friend of mine is a lawyer and has been defending a lot of kids that have really been heavily suffering from divorce. Divorce comes anyway with a price. 

I m not going to quit now - still things to try. The last couple of years I managed to make some personal and professional progress. I miss the passionate love life, but I still want to give it a chance.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Freetown said:


> But why do some of them have so many good reviews? And why not continue this topic and detail the theories of the different books. Some of them are indeed based on the same basics.
> 
> Btw: any books that explain the origin of HD and LD?
> 
> ...


Well....

My wife (a woman) absolutely hated She Comes First. Thought it was tripe/garbage through and through, from it's objective to its methodology to its conclusions. That it was written by a man just strengthened that is was totally clueless in understanding its own subject matter. 

If anything, that book set our HD/LD reconciliation efforts back a sizeable chunk.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well....
> 
> My wife (a woman) absolutely hated She Comes First.


At least she read it and didn't just look at the cover and then chuck it in the direction of your head. Just sayin' :|


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Freetown said:


> I see your point but I m not convinced yet.


No worries. The longer you stay in a sexually unsatisfying marriage, the more you will see that I am correct.



> The last couple of years I managed to make some personal and professional progress.


And yet your wife is just as opposed to sex as she was before you made personal and professional progress. What makes you think that further progress will make any difference? 

Keep in mind the psychology study. If you ask people how much money they need to be satisfied, they invariably say "15% more". If you ask them again after their income has increased 15%, they still say "15% more". Hardly anyone ever says "I am satisfied with what I earn now". Most likely this mechanism will work the same way for your wife and sex. When you ask "how much do I have to improve myself for you to be sexually interested in me, she will say "15% more". And that will be her answer until you leave or one of you drops dead.



> I miss the passionate love life, but I still want to give it a chance.


Your life. Your time to waste. I intend to stay with my wife until death do us part. But no one has ever accused me of being emotionally healthy.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Starved-...rd_wg=eg2EF&psc=1&refRID=0SCA7HFEMA536VF03BTZ
> 
> is an example, but there are tons. Has anyone read any of these?


I was in a sex starved marriage and read a lot of books.

MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage, is great. Her book Divorce Busting is also great. Actually any of her books you fancy would be good.

The Passionate Marriage, Crucible and Intimacy & Desire by David Schnarch are also good (but the first one a difficult read) as he has a unique perspective on sexual dysfunction in marriage and some great insights that helped my wife and I deal with our issues.

I also found Chapman's the 5 Languages of Love to be very helpful, but it doesn't really talk about sex except very briefly. It talks more about relationships and how to make people feel loved.

As a man working on my contributions to my sex starved marriage, I also found that Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy was a real help in changing myself such that sex could again be part of my marriage.

Good luck.

P.S. Mating in captivity (E Perel) and Hold Me Tight were good. I think that Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight was the better of the two.

I really disliked, The married man sex life primer


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

The only book in the genre I found helpful at all was Come as You Are by Dr. Emily Nagoski.

It didn't actually sold anything, but it did the best job of explaining what was going on. 

And it was the only such book my wife could tolerate even a little bit.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

The bottom line is: if you are HD and your partner is LD, do not ask them to be something they are not. You will both end up unhappy. Be honest about what you need. Ask your partner to be honest about whether there is any version of you that would motivate them to behave that way. Hope and pray that if the answer is "no, there isn't" that they are honest enough to admit it. And at the first sign that they are not comfortable being the partner you need, do both of you a favor and end it. Quickly and cleanly.

It is one thing to ask someone what you can do to help them express an aspect of themselves that is buried under layers of fear or shame or guilt. It is quite another thing to ask someone to play a role that isn't part of who they are. It is often quite hard to refrain from asking. It doesn't seem that asking for something you desperately want could be a bad thing. But it can be. Terribly terribly bad. For both of you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Freetown said:


> But why do some of them have so many good reviews? And why not continue this topic and detail the theories of the different books. Some of them are indeed based on the same basics.
> 
> Btw: any books that explain the origin of HD and LD?
> 
> ...


Just for curiosity's sake, have *ANY* of these magical self-help books actually helped you improve your situation?

I'm betting the answer is no since you're here posting about your LD wife. Save your money.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Like most guys we see a problem and want to fix it. So we do research and go from there. I’ve read most of these books and got some good insights but nothing compared to seeing a MC or a therapist solo. If your wife has deep-seated emotional issues reading MMSLP and discovering you should be blowing your load over wife’s chest will make things worse. 

Unless you have buy-in from your partner it’s like reading a bunch of books on nutrition and hoping your spouse won’t have food issues. Some women will see it as you trying to fix them which they don’t like.

Past emotional trauma + low testosterone + insecurity/low self esteem + being a domesticated man + weak emotional connection = LD. Maybe not true in all cases but a lot.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I have never been a huge fan of any of the books, though i may have to read mating in captivity. 

I basically started doing things similar to what Meme mentioned... she didnt like it one bit. When she told me about how much it hurt, i told her that i would simply stop. I would stop acting like i actually WANTED to take her on a shopping trip so long as she would stop acting like she WANTED to have sex with me. And, if our relationship deteriorates as a result of living like room mates, we could always divorce.

She didn't like that either. So i offered an alternative: if she would ACT like she enjoyed having sex with me, even if she wasn't in the mood for it, then i would act like i enjoyed taking her shopping. I would find a way to enjoy it so that she could enjoy that time with me. But if she was going to be pissy and disinterested during sex, i would be the same during those shopping trips. 

To be honest, it was more than just shopping trips, but you get the idea. 

Anyway, she figured out how to enjoy sex, and when i was doing things she wanted, i focused on the things that i could enjoy. 

Some people might call it a compromise, but i call it cooperation.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

@NobodySpecial

Your best tool against a sexless marriage is ceaseless prayer.

Following that, the best book is the bible. Read it, live it, and enjoy the fruits of the holy spirit. When your spouse lets you down, the fruits will intercede. When your spouse sees your gracefulness, they will become very attracted.

Enjoy your journey


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> @NobodySpecial
> 
> Your best tool against a sexless marriage is ceaseless prayer.
> 
> ...


Really? 

You do know that Christian marriages suffer as much turmoil as non-Christian marriages, right?

... and that divorce rates in Christian marriages are similar to non-Christian marriages?

That Good Book doesn't seem to be doing much good in this area. 

And, oh btw, those other "fruits" are no substitute for a healthy sex life in a marriage. And the most common response to being graceful is the unresponsive spouse assuming everything is all right and is justified in their withholding sex.

I'm afraid this whole post is poppycock.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I read the Sex Starved Marriage. I thought it was good, and it helped me understand things I should and should not do, and some things to try. Also to see his side better. 

I have never seen my H read a book since we met. He absolutely hates to read, and he still hasn’t made it into the LD spouse section just past the intro, months after he agreed to read it within a week or two. This really hurts me and I feel is a big part of our issues not getting better. Him not caring enough to put forth the efforts I want to see. He reads crap about fixing mechanical etc stuff online...he can read to try to fix this! Effort needed! 

I’m not going to get into this a lot, because I just recently started a thread (rare for me) where I intend to discuss a lot more stuff to get input from everyone here) but am trying to figure out how to do it concisely. So, that’s the book I’ve read, and how I feel about it...


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## Freetown (Oct 19, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Just for curiosity's sake, have *ANY* of these magical self-help books actually helped you improve your situation?
> 
> I'm betting the answer is no since you're here posting about your LD wife. Save your money.


Many of those books gave me good insights and views - eg about the attachment styles, love languages - some opened up my eyes (no more mr nice guy) and stopped me from being the doormat. Even if I wouldn t be able to fix my marriage, I will anyway benefit from these books.

I have to admit indeed that it s way more difficult to change the other. Partly that is because I m not disciplined enough to practice the theories. Secondly, some books can harm your relationship. My wife can t stand it when I m too directive. Third reason is indeed that some of our partners have traumas that first need to be healed before they can make any progress. And last but not least, you can t change the real inner person of your partner. 

However, I still believe my partner can change, the same way all of us can change, the same wat I have changed (though I don t want/can t change my passion for sex). My wife is a passionate woman but she disconnected from sex years ago.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

*Re: sexless marriage books, curiousby*



MEM2020 said:


> Still on page one...
> 
> So now we are in the fray - this is - full blown precipice dancing - because your partner is trying to decide between killing you as opposed to just leaving you.
> 
> ...


Serious Question:
It the "distancer" truly *flirting*? As in suggesting they want and are in the mood for sex? Or are they being affectionate in public? As in hand holding, a hug, a loving but not sexual kiss or two?

The reason I ask is that I have read that a lot of the time when a person craves affection, they will be affectionate in public but not private because everytime they try to get affection in private their partner immediately escalates to sex. So they physically avoid them at home then suddenly become affectionate in public. But they are not *consciously *doing this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: sexless marriage books, curiousby*

WW,
That is a fair question. I no longer believe it is possible to accurately assess the dynamic between two people solely based on posts made by one or the other of them on a site like this. 

I have also come around to the viewpoint that many sexually frustrated posters have pretty serious behavioral issues. When I first visited TAM - maybe 8 or so years ago - my default assumption was that the lower drive person was almost always at fault. That is no longer the case as I have observed too many cases where the higher drive person seems to lack self awareness and / or empathy. 

While M2 and I have had our share of conflict over differences in desire levels - missed signals are almost as rare as unicorns. In 10,000++ nights together we have maybe miscommunicated two or three times. 

And we have had fewer than 10 cases of invite/reject - so that is a frequency of about once in three years or so. About half of those were in the space of a single year and after the third or fourth case in a multi month span I asked M2 what she thought would happen if she weaponized our sex life. In a few of those cases she wanted something. I don’t remember what and it doesn’t really matter. What I do recall is gritting my teeth and declining whenever there seemed to be any transactional element to what was happening.











WorkingWife said:


> Serious Question:
> It the "distancer" truly *flirting*? As in suggesting they want and are in the mood for sex? Or are they being affectionate in public? As in hand holding, a hug, a loving but not sexual kiss or two?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I have read that a lot of the time when a person craves affection, they will be affectionate in public but not private because everytime they try to get affection in private their partner immediately escalates to sex. So they physically avoid them at home then suddenly become affectionate in public. But they are not *consciously *doing this.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

*Re: sexless marriage books, curiousby*



MEM2020 said:


> WW,
> That is a fair question. I no longer believe it is possible to accurately assess the dynamic between two people solely based on posts made by one or the other of them on a site like this.
> 
> I have also come around to the viewpoint that many sexually frustrated posters have pretty serious behavioral issues. When I first visited TAM - maybe 8 or so years ago - my default assumption was that the lower drive person was almost always at fault. That is no longer the case as I have observed too many cases where the higher drive person seems to lack self awareness and / or empathy.
> ...


Yeah, using sex to get something is not going to make your partner feel desired and loved, that's for sure.

Are there things she has said she wants - conversation, affection, time together, financial security, etc. that you are dismissive of? I know I do not want sex when I feel my needs are ignored. But when I'm happy -- not only do I want sex, but I want to make my man feel good, so even if I'm lower drive than him I'm going to be happy to fool around regardless (and enjoy it). It's part of marriage maintenance 101 in my opinion. But I have to feel I have a partner, not just some guy who wants me there at his convenience. If he won't take time to meet my needs I will feel very used and resentful and not want to deal with his annoying sex drive...


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

@Rocky Mountain Yeti

Just because christian marriages are failing doesn't mean the bible is wrong. Clever argument, but I know there is no correlation there. The reason many christian marriages fail just like non-christian marriages is that "christian" has become more like an ethnicity than a way of life. For example, how many jews do you know that have nothing to do with faith or the old testament, they're just of "jewish" decent, nothing to do with religion.

Much of the american church preaches positive portions of the bible and the "christians" come in on sunday, check their box, then go back to their non-graceful lives. So the real comparison for you to evaluate is to compare the marriages of "Followers of Jesus" to everything else and see what the stats tell you. I'm not sure if we have survey data on it.

You underestimate the power of God because you haven't lived it yet. You haven't seen it in action. The short period of time this person will show grace and suffer will be quickly overshadowed by a long and fulfilling marriage with as much emotional connection as the OP needs, because this blessing comes from God and He is bigger than all the other junk. Follow Him without question, and you will enjoy that blessing.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

There are a lot of people who bash Christians and the Bible in terms pointing out the hypocrisy in marriage and sex. 

As a believer myself I will tell you that being a Christian means having a personal relationship with Christ and doesn’t mean you’re perfect but you are held accountable by a higher power. Being Christian doesn’t mean your immune from poor choices or urges in your marriage or even before. We’re not any less immune from porn, premarital sex, or affairs. Not more or less than the urge for someone to break the law even though they are clearly spelled out. Laws don’t stop people from wanting to break them. Not even the 10 Commandments.

In a Christian marriage you are accountable to you, your spouse and God because of the covenant you made. There are far fewer sinful things that I do that would hurt my spouse compared to before. We agree to surrender our selfishness for the betterment of our marriage but that doesn’t mean I’m not human and another women with a nice body at the isn’t a temptation at least in a fleeting thought. We’re human not robots. There are Christians who stay in bad marriages too out of obligation but there are legit reasons for divorce in the Bible.

In a non-faith based marriage you are accountable to your spouse until you decide you don’t have to be. Then you go thru the legal process to extricate a spouse from life. And a lot of people on these boards will stick with a bad marriage because they to are selfish and don’t want the shame, stigma, financial hit or be alone or enter the dating pool again.

Bottom line this is a heart-thing for both spouses. There are some deep wounds that need to be addressed. In a secular marriage you have plenty of outs. If you are a Christian you don’t because you are expected to love your spouse like the church.

If you’re not a believer there is no need to bash. In my eyes a non-believer doesn’t live under the same rules so live and let live. Similar to me bashing a CrossFit person about their lack of workout results from not following the program. i don’t subscribe to that fitness construct by working myself so who am I to rip on them.




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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> @Rocky Mountain Yeti
> 
> Just because christian marriages are failing doesn't mean the bible is wrong. Clever argument, but I know there is no correlation there. The reason many christian marriages fail just like non-christian marriages is that "christian" has become more like an ethnicity than a way of life. For example, how many jews do you know that have nothing to do with faith or the old testament, they're just of "jewish" decent, nothing to do with religion.
> 
> ...


Do Christians get divorced at the same rate because they aren't Christian enough. I get it. But that still leads to the inevitable conclusion that that particular faith overall isn't changing anything for the better here. Add to that that many Christians stay in miserable marriages just because of the taboo against divorce, not because it's a good marriage. Many of them are doing their level best to "follow Him" but that doesn't bring them together as a couple, no matter how much you wan to think doing so makes everything else rainbows and butterflies. 

And oh, btw, you have absolutely zero idea about what I have and haven't lived and what power I have or haven't felt. Wherever my faith has been and wherever it is, I've always retained my power of logical and independent thought. God didn't give us brains just so we could turn them off and blindly accept whatever dogma gets thrown at us. Lots of good stuff in the Bible, but it's foundational at best, not anywhere near comprehensive or complete, even for the most righteous of believers. People will always have to figure most of life out for themselves and some will do better than others.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I have to admit indeed that it s way more difficult to change the other.


I am not sure if you are referring to changing the other person here....but the bottom line is you really can't.

We can try to inspire or motivate change from someone else, but the ONLY person whom we can change or control is ourselves.

So when someone says "How can I make my spouse/get my spouse to...." the simple and ultimate answer is: you can't

That is why, in the end, you can only be the best YOU can be and have strong boundaries, and make decisions accordingly.

When I was spending all those years trying to achieve perfection and check all the right boxes so that my LD/asexual/maybe gay ex husband would desire me, what I was really doing was trying to find a way to make him change.

When I accepted that he was he, and that was a whole separate thing from me, then it got easier and more clear.

Then I had to assess his behavior apart from mine. It was eye-opening.

And as a believer in the Bible, when I assessed his vow-breaking in light of the Bible's description of marriage and I Cor. 7 directives concerning sex, plus a whole lot of other things, it freed me from the belief that my responsibility as a Christian was to be miserable forever.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> Your best tool against a sexless marriage is ceaseless prayer.


If someone spends their time on ceaseless prayer. I can't see how they could find the time to have much if any sex, or sex of any notable quality within a marriage.



waynejoey said:


> Following that, the best book is the bible. Read it, live it, and enjoy the fruits of the holy spirit. When your spouse lets you down, the fruits will intercede. When your spouse sees your gracefulness, they will become very attracted.


Considering the number of Christians who find themselves in dead bedrooms. It is evident that reading the Bible, isn't going to fix a sexless marriage.



waynejoey said:


> Enjoy your journey


I am.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: sexless marriage books, curiousby*

We don’t fight about any of that. We just fight about me converting. Not going to happen. Might end up being the basis for a divorce.




WorkingWife said:


> Yeah, using sex to get something is not going to make your partner feel desired and loved, that's for sure.
> 
> Are there things she has said she wants - conversation, affection, time together, financial security, etc. that you are dismissive of? I know I do not want sex when I feel my needs are ignored. But when I'm happy -- not only do I want sex, but I want to make my man feel good, so even if I'm lower drive than him I'm going to be happy to fool around regardless (and enjoy it). It's part of marriage maintenance 101 in my opinion. But I have to feel I have a partner, not just some guy who wants me there at his convenience. If he won't take time to meet my needs I will feel very used and resentful and not want to deal with his annoying sex drive...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

aaarghdub said:


> There are a lot of people who bash Christians and the Bible in terms pointing out the hypocrisy in marriage and sex.
> 
> As a believer myself I will tell you that being a Christian means having a personal relationship with Christ and doesn’t mean you’re perfect but you are held accountable by a higher power. Being Christian doesn’t mean your immune from poor choices or urges in your marriage or even before. We’re not any less immune from porn, premarital sex, or affairs. Not more or less than the urge for someone to break the law even though they are clearly spelled out. Laws don’t stop people from wanting to break them. Not even the 10 Commandments.
> 
> ...


I do not see, at all, what this has to do with the thread topic.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Lots of good stuff in the Bible, but it's foundational at best, not anywhere near comprehensive or complete, even for the most righteous of believers.


This is a complete lie that satan has put in your head. I've read dozens of self-help marriage books and when I overlay it against the bible, its all there. The bible is perfect and complete, the only book we need.

You are trying to use your own understanding to clarify what I wrote, however the bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. There are aspects of marriage that are described as a mystery. You have to surrender!

I was not suggesting dogma and status quo. I was suggesting OP turns their life over to Jesus and follows unquestionably. From there breakthroughs will be possible. A spouses's heart will change, an outsider will step in and speak truth, a door will be unlocked, a feeling will be had, a conversation, a hug, a kiss, complete reconciliation.

God's design for marriage glorifies the church. It is not his will to leave us in sexless marriages, rather that is a result of this broken world. To combat this broken world we have to turn to Him, there is nothing else that can replace it. OP will not find solace in divorce, alcohol, porn, the gym, friends, TAM, money, NOTHING will compare.

I know this is true because I lived it and God is good.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of good stuff in the Bible, but it's foundational at best, not anywhere near comprehensive or complete, even for the most righteous of believers.
> ...


 I am a Bible believing Christian, and this is a bit over the top. 1st of all, I refer you to James 1 versus 19 and 20. Beyond that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking out books to supplement what your Bible has to say about sex. Obviously books that encourage violating God's design for sex would not be a good idea, but books like intended for pleasure, which is written by a Christian author, are perfectly acceptable for christians to use

And while my church was not this way, you would have to be intentionally dishonest not to admit that some churches use shaming SA tool to keep people pure. Then they expect these same people who view sex as dirty and sinful to flip a switch once they get married. That doesn't always happen.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I see this thread has turned into a religious thing. I rarely have strong opinions on things but I have strong ones on this. I am a Christian and speaking candidly people that are too holy give the worst advice ever, and make the rest of us Christians look bad. They see their advice as actionable but it isn't. Someone like this would advise you to do the same thing no matter what your crisis is. When you're grieving a loss of someone you love its "pray and have faith". If you just found out you got terminal cancer, "its pray and have faith". So naturally if your wife won't have sex with you its "pray and have faith". This type of advice is very dismissive of what the person is going through and gives them nothing they can really use. Yes they should never forget about their faith, but they also need to be given solid advice on the reality of their situation. I pray, but I pray to be guided in my actions in this world. When you are in a sticky situation its is my belief that you use your faith as your comfort and peace, but its your own actions and decisions that will get you out of it. They go together, and relying too much on divine intervention will not yield any results.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

No, this thread has not turned into a religious thread. There is a sub discussion going on based on a comment about The Bible being all you need for sex and refutations of that statement. Just because someone mentions God, that doesn't mean it's a religious thread.

Other than that, you are 100% right. These are the people who tell someone struggling with major depression that they aren't spiritual enough and they should not be taking that medicine. These are the ones who tell an abused woman to pray and submit more. And I agree, they do make the rest of us look badd.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

waynejoey said:


> This is a complete lie that satan has put in your head. I've read dozens of self-help marriage books and when I overlay it against the bible, its all there. The bible is perfect and complete, the only book we need.
> 
> You are trying to use your own understanding to clarify what I wrote, however the bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. There are aspects of marriage that are described as a mystery. You have to surrender!
> 
> I was not suggesting dogma and status quo. I was suggesting OP turns their life over to Jesus and follows unquestionably.


Late to the party you are. WOOA I went all Yoda. The OP was asking since she has read about sexless marriages so many times on this board, I was curious how those folks felt about these books. OP does not have a sexless marriage. OP also has no intention of turning her life over to a mythical being, a magic sky daddy which is her *personal opinion* of god whether it be Jesus or someone else'.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> No, this thread has not turned into a religious thread. There is a sub discussion going on based on a comment about The Bible being all you need for sex and refutations of that statement. Just because someone mentions God, that doesn't mean it's a religious thread.
> 
> Other than that, you are 100% right. These are the people who tell someone struggling with major depression that they aren't spiritual enough and they should not be taking that medicine. These are the ones who tell an abused woman to pray and submit more. And I agree, they do make the rest of us look badd.


A woman that is being physically abused is permitted by God to divorce her husband. I feel like you have taken my advice and twisted it into a strawman argument to try to weaken the bible, but that statement lacks truth.

Someone else also suggested that I meant no other books are allowed. Not what I said... My advice was to start with the bible first and then work your way from there. If you start with secular books you could potentially expose yourself to ungodly advice and make a mistake.

I know this because it happened to me with the married men's sex life primer. The book isn't graceful at all and did a lot more harm than good. I won't make that mistake again.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> A woman that is being physically abused is permitted by God to divorce her husband. I feel like you have taken my advice and twisted it into a strawman argument to try to weaken the bible, but that statement lacks truth.
> 
> Someone else also suggested that I meant no other books are allowed. Not what I said... My advice was to start with the bible first and then work your way from there. If you start with secular books you could potentially expose yourself to ungodly advice and make a mistake.
> 
> I know this because it happened to me with the married men's sex life primer. The book isn't graceful at all and did a lot more harm than good. I won't make that mistake again.


This is great for you....because you are a believer. I am too.

The OP is not, and most of the members here not only do not believe in God....they are...ahem....particularly overt in their opinion of the "magical sky fairy."

So trying to preach in this venue will not work.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> This is great for you....because you are a believer. I am too.
> 
> The OP is not, and most of the members here not only do not believe in God....they are...ahem....particularly overt in their opinion of the "magical sky fairy."
> 
> So trying to preach in this venue will not work.


I have no disrespect for your belief. I was being intentionally ... um... blunt. I mean magic MIGHT be descriptive of dying and coming back to life!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

waynejoey said:


> -snip - My advice was to start with the bible first and then work your way from there. If you start with secular books *you could potentially expose yourself to ungodly advice* and make a mistake. -snip-.


This could also happen if you start with the Songs of Solomon.

I have no objection to scriptural advice, but when you start qualifying it with don't "interpret" the scriptures, and it's a "mystery". Then you stop advocating the scripture, and start advocating the local dogma. This leads to ungodly mistakes.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have no disrespect for your belief. I was being intentionally ... um... blunt. I mean magic MIGHT be descriptive of dying and coming back to life!


I wasn't offended by your comment at all. You don't typically single out anyone to make fun of or try to "gotcha" due to faith.

All this talk of magic makes me want to reread Harry Potter 

Or play with my husbands "wand"....


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Or play with my husbands "wand"....


There's a thread for that!


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## Pac-Man (Jun 5, 2018)

Spicy said:


> I read the Sex Starved Marriage.
> 
> He absolutely hates to read, and he still hasn’t made it into the LD spouse section just past the intro,


I also managed to make my partner read the intro of the Sex Starved Marriage. In my case, it was very useful. its available here:
Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problem Books with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®
(I bought and read the whole book. I was a good.)

When the sex hit the bottom in my relationship, around four years ago, I had starfish sex once or twice a month. Kissing her felt like practicing on a plastic dummy. Sometimes she would say "do it quick, I want to sleep." I almost left. I decided to stay for the kids. But since I had to stay, I tried to get some change.

At first, she just didn't took me seriously. When I made her read the intro of SSM, it changed. The author clearly warns that sexual insatisfaction can lead to cheating or divorce. It woke her up.
But the end result is a glass that can be seen as half full or half empty. 

She went to search of information about what should be the "standard" or "normal" for our sex life, so I could not complains that I do not receive my share. She told me that x and y friends do it once or twice a week and decided that's what should be considered ok for a couple in their forties with kids. She also understood that she had to work on herself to be fully present. But blowjobs won't return.

That was way less than our sex life during the honeymoon period, but I took it as an opportunity for a good start. I made a lot of effort to become a better lover myself. I learned and tried different techniques ans style in bed. I am now a regular gym goer. With the effort of both of us, she now have orgasms every time and she enjoy it. But it's still me doing all the work. I make love to her, she's passive. At some point, we discovered that what I considered a good start was what she considered the end goal. I also understood that her goal is just to be good enough so I won't leave. She doesn't mind if I am not really happy.

Combined with other problems outside of the bedroom, my plan A is to let her go when the kids are old enought (It may be her secret goal too!). I still have 4 to 5 years to go. She's not a bad person. I have a lot of respect for her. We still have a friendly relationship. But as the time went by, we have become incompatible as a couple.

So, in the meantime, I am trying to be the best partner I can be. Now my focus is on being better at listening and conversation. It's the best thing to do for everyone involved. People who play tennis or chess learn a lot when they play against an opponent slightly better than themselves. I guess I can practice at being a good partner with someone who is challenging to love. The next one will get a better version of me. 

I also read a lot of books about relationship. I think that the more important for me so far were "5 Love Languages" (Chapman) and "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" (Patricia Love and Steven Stosny). Despite the title, the last one is a good communication book.

I also liked "Come as You Are" (Emily Nagoski)


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