# what about the boy?



## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

Kid involved. I've spent the past six months trying to convince my wife she should not end our marriage of ten years.
She's got it in her head that we aren't right for each other. She has done some things i consider cheating, right up to my barest level of accepting. Things like sharing naked pictures with a WOW "friend". I don't think she's had a physical relationship with anyone, but close, very close.
It's taken this long to convince me, but I finally realize there is nothing I can do or say.
I know this is going to destroy my child's emotional well being. To say nothing of my own. But she isn't "happy" and instead of taking charge of her own emotional well being, she wants to blame me and tell me all the reasons I don't fulfill her.
My theory? She is depressed and is looking for a way out of that. After I am gone, and/or the child is gone, I think she will still have her depression.


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## HappyHer (Nov 12, 2009)

Have you asked her to go into counseling with you? Have you thought of a temporary separation that might allow her to see what she'll be missing out on? What else can you do that might help prevent the divorce, but still give her some time to come to terms with herself?

As far as the child, many parents divorce and the children do just fine. It's hard for them, it sucks for them, but it's workable and if both parents are committed, then the child ends up doing just fine. If your wife thinks that is the only reason you want the marriage to work - for your child, then it's not an attractive proposition. Hearing how you want to save the marriage, for your happiness, because of your deep love for her, that might be a little more appealing and sway her decision, if it's sway-able at this point.


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## sirch (Jan 8, 2009)

Ask her to go to counseling, if she wan't go sit her down and have a talk with her. Tell her if she is not happy she needs to leave, let her take everything she wants EXCEPT the child! Just because she is not happy doesn't mean you have to leave the house or your child.
If she does leave you are setting yourself up in a good position for custody of your child. After all he should be your priority now that she is having her affair. Yes she is having some form of affair, sending nude pics is not how a happily married women behaves.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

The things that will destroy your child's well being are (A) being convinced that divorce, by definition , does that and (B) following Sirch's advice. 

Affairs have nothing to do with custody. A child is not a pawn to be used to punish a spouse for their errant behavior. The only thing that matters in determining parent-child relations is the relationship betw parent and child. NO PARENT SHOULD BE DENIED ITS PARENT FOR ANY REASON. If there is child abuse, neglect, alcohol or drug addiction--visits are supervised. A person who wants contact with his/her child should have it, even if supervised, because that is what is best for the child.

Please, people, get this through your heads b/c the evidence is incredibly strong that it is NOT divorce, in and of itself, that hurts kids. It is the parents forcing the kids to choose sides, trying to force a child to say "mom is bad" or whatever. 

A well raised child will decide for himself/herself AS AN ADULT whether or not to continue contact with the wayward parent. And just because YOU don't like it or YOU think the other parent is immoral does not DEFINE that other person for everyone. Denying a child its parent, or denying a parent its child, is a decision only God can and should make. Trying to teach a child not to love and want to know its mother is simply as cruel and as damaging as it gets. Raise your kid right--to avoid wrongdoing him/herself. Raise them with the knowledge that they can set boundaries on the time they spend with people whose morals they do not like, without deciding that the person is worthless--and then trust your child to become a loving adult who loves his/her mom and will set limits if mom's behavior is hurtful to him. 

It makes me feel physically ill to know there are people out there using their kids like weapons. DO NOT PUNISH YOUR KIDS BECAUSE YOUR SPOUSE PUNISHED YOU.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

How much of the issue is the World of Warcraft playing in terms of time a day/week?


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## sirch (Jan 8, 2009)

Sisters, I by no means meant for the child to be used as a pawn! 

What I was getting at is this, all to often the man in a crumbling marriage is expected to leave the home and the children when separation occurs. And this is simply backwards thinking and detrimental to his relationship with his children. 

His wife is not happy, fine. Let her go and be happy, find herself, whatever but he shouldn't have to damage his relationship with his son by leaving the home.


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

she used to play WOW sunup sundown.
now she limits it to when i'm at work or asleep. i think she resents me for her limiting her own game.
i feel like she has some real control issues.
but get this. her dad left her mother when she was 8 or 9. dude is a psychiatrist, works in a prison, abnormal psychology.
you would think a dr would know better. the things ppl do to their kids in the name of self righteous justification.
i will not speak on other kids, or on half baked studies "proving" children of divorce are well off. I know my child, and I know the effect it will have.
I say, me and the wife need to suffer through for well being of the kid. That has the best chance of creating a sane person.
I've done some reading also. A lot of it depends on the age of the child.


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## HappyHer (Nov 12, 2009)

If you are okay teaching him that it's fine to "suffer through" and live in unhappy situations, then so be it.

But you can't control your wife if she wants to leave, and living with an unhappy mother that plays video games from sunup to sundown and creates an unhealthy environment living in the home probably isn't the best example of "sane" that you could give him.


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

all that is better than taking away any vestige of self esteem he might develop.
and yes, teaching how to be a man and suffer through instead of dropping a vow or goal as soon as it becomes uncomfortable, i accept that as reasonable.
even if he turns out ok, it's an unnecessary roll of the dice, with very hazardous results. would it be acceptable to dangle a child over a balcony on a regular basis, simply by being convinced they won't be harmed? if the mental dangers present due to divorce were applied as a physical danger, i think cps would be involved.
but you are correct, i cannot control the wife.
i think she should control herself. and take responsibility for her own state of being. without destroying a family unit. you ever get angry at your mom or dad? they make you unhappy? want to divorce them? sounds wrong, cause you are their child. and it is just as wrong for my child.
and new development. we are getting evicted cause the land lord peeked her head in our house and saw how dirty the unemployed housewife was keeping it. i mean, when i come home from work i will put some effort into the kitchen and dishes, but i can't do it all.
landlord won't even discuss it with me.
do you know how easy it would be for me to pick up and go now? with the stress of the wife poking me, i could take the boy and leave. but you know what? she is my wife. i married her. i will continue trying to support her, in spite of her if necessary.


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## harmonia (Jun 20, 2010)

OK first of all we have a 9 year old daughter not a son and I find it strange that you're calling her "the boy". Second of all the landlord was first alarmed by the poor state of our yard which YOU the husband were supposed to be keeping up. Third of all you are abusive. I have been called every name in the book and even thrown down and put into a choke hold. Our child has to see you treat me like this. I'm not playing video games from sun up to sun down. i am playing in the evening, mostly when everyone else is asleep or busy. I would prefer to go out and do something with you, but you never want to. This is not about me wanting to go prancing through the daisies and have a perfect life. This is about how completely unbearable you can be as a husband and how unhappy our life is together. This also affects our daughter as she witnesses the constant fighting. I'm disgusted by some of the things you wrote about me. And, by the way, we lived together before getting married. If you didn't like the way I kept house you didnt have to marry me. But how can you complain about the state of the house when you can't even take a dish to the sink. Your expectations are unfair and you are a hypocrit. I have all but begged to go to counseling but you think you are smarter than any counselor so you refuse. What options have you left me? Oh yes suffering through. Excuse me if I don't want to live my whole life in suffering. I have given you 11 years of suffering already.


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

i said boy in the topic as an allegory and i was quoting a song. it doesn't matter, same difference in regards to what i'm saying.
the yard was kept up. the sprinklers had broken. it was the disgusting trash in front of the door.
we have both called each other names. i am simply not physically abusive. that is a lie. i have not put you in a choke hold. 
we were told by a counselor that when you want to run away, i should try and stop you, that you should not leave. i have stood in your way, and you bounced off of me one. once i put my hands up to stop you and they ended up at your neck area, very far cry from "choke hold". i did pull a chair back and lay it on the ground. i was vey careful not to hurt you, this is more on the level of a prank than intentionally hurting you. i shouldn't have done it, and i'm sure it was embarrassing.
i don't get why you hold on to the victim role and clasp these 'abusive' things so tightly and exaggerate them into something a lot more twisted.
the child witnesses both of us fighting. you get caught up as much as i do. why put yourself on a pedestal?
the game play is an addiction, and you resent me when you hold back from playing.
you are depressed. clinically. sometimes you take your pills, sometimes you don't. you are going to suffer no matter what you do. why destroy fragile minds when it can be avoided.
you take everything i do and put it in through the nasty filter. 
when i reach out to you and be affectionate with you, you tell me 'it's not real. i don't believe it.'
so you reject all positive and embrace all negative. and you used this as an excuse to send naked pictures to some random WOW player and i found close ups of a penis on my computer, no warning a couple of years ago. and 6 months ago you started secretly dating. you tell me you did not have sexual relations, which would be beyond my ability to accept.
you are right up to what i'm capable of accepting.
i am a complex, sensitive man. no one else in my life has ever called me an abuser. or even thinks badly of me. i am a very loving man, and you cannot see me.
when i speak of your problems or your dad, or my role, it is me trying to understand.
but it doesn't matter.
end of the day. when the passions and fights are done, i forgive you.
i forgive you.
i hope you can overcome your misery. but beyond that, i hope you stop being so destructive, not just to yourself, but to those in your environment. i hope you will be able to see me for who and what i am.


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## harmonia (Jun 20, 2010)

The trash was by the front door because nobody ever takes out the trash. At least I took it half way. Every single job around the house is not mine. You are also responsible. You have been physically abusive and you are in total denial about it. You didn't do anything "gently". You intentionally knocked the chair over because you were angry and I got hurt. I am not exaggerating anything. And you certainly did put me in a choke hold! I remember the day and the incident very clearly. I don't think the counselor wanted you to do whatever it took to stop me from leaving even if it meant becoming physical in that way. That is just unacceptable and you should never put your hands on me that way.

I'm even more concerned with the verbal abuse because it is so frequent, causes me to become more depressed, and affects our daughter. Sometimes I take my pills? I take my medicine every single day for depression and anxiety and I have been through quite a bit of counseling. You, on the other hand are supposed to be on antidepressents which you refuse to take at all because they "make you too nice." Take some responsibility for your own actions or nothing will ever get better, whether it's with me or the next girl.


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

i am not phsysically abusive. if i were, i'm sure i would be in jail by now, cause as can be seen she is not afraid. 
yes, as the housewife it is your job to wife the house. primarily.
the 'vebal abuse' is mutual, and honestly you are more likely to get angry and start yelling far quicker than me. like last night when i found out you are having secret phone conversations with the 'other man' and you started screaming and slamming doors around the house. please take under consideration that you become 'abusive' far quicker and more readily than i ever have. after tolerating it for a bit, i do respond in kind. 
now we are just fighting in a public forum.
does anyone have any advice?
help?
please?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You think a child is better off in this environment? You "know" better than people who have studied these issues for literally decades. You know everything, it sounds like. Why bother asking for advice.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Sirch, I'm glad you clarified. You mentioned him getting custody b/c of her affair, if he didn't leave, but that is irrelevant. I felt it needed to be clarified.

Sounds like this op is determined to make sure his child's life is made miserable, rather than learning to let go of his anger at his wife and view things from the child's point of view. Poor kid. This type of divorce will be very damaging, although staying in an environment of constant ugliness isn't really any healthier.


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

sisters, i "know" based on my research on the studies done for literally decades. and i "know" based on what i see in my child right now after 10 years of marriage.
and i'm not angry at my wife. at worst i feel sorry for her.
and yes, i am bothering to ask for advice. i don't think my situation is very unique. i think, or rather hope, there are other people out there with similar problems that have worked it out.
her calling me abusive is self aggrandizing victimhood, and i think is an aspect of her depression. (i have depression also, but it is only dysthymia. or environmental. understandable?)
i hug her and she pushes me aside, i get rejected on a constant basis. i don't know how to get through her wall of fears and doubts.
she is super sensitive and a fighter.


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## harmonia (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't think of myself as a victim because I'm in this marriage as a result of my own choices. I do think of our daughter as a victim because she has no choice.


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

our "victim" daughter listened to our discussion tonight about the duties of a housewife, approached me and told me "this isn't the fifties. just cause she is a housewife doesn't make her your slave."
i want to state clearly this from the daughter is original, she is not mimicking the mother. she has the self esteem, confidence, and intelligence to make this profound statement and confront me with it. i am very proud of her. and i could tell she was proud of herself.
she gets these strong traits due to us being strong parents. she has learned from the mother not to simply accept what a man says, even her own father. this 'miserable' situation is not her misery. we have a duality that she needs, to continue growing strong.
if the wife leaves, she no longer has that duality. she might get a broken step family situation that hurts her even more. maybe not, but pretty dicey.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

LOL... I didn't realize that my other post was connected to this thread. The good news is that you guys are talking to each other, the bad news is that you are talking at each other with no chance of being heard.

Beard,
I understand that you want to keep the marriage going for your DD's sake, but it sounds like that your W isn't so sure. You can't make someone feel guilty and coerced into staying. It sounds to me that you're trying to make your W see that staying married is the best interest of your DD. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that you two are on the same page on the best interest of the child. If your child constantly witnesses her parents violently arguing each other, I'm not so sure whether it's the best interest of your DD for your marriage to continue in its current state. Until you learn the skills to communicate non violently, I'm afraid that the environment is too toxic for her as it is. Are you willing to do whatever it takes to make your DD's environment as positive as possible? No blames, no excuses, just doing what's best within your own control for your DD? Unless you take the responsibility for this step, your reason for your W staying in this marriage (the best interest of your DD) simply doesn't hold. 

Harmonica,
Regardless of what you decide to do with your marriage to your H, it seems to me that it would also beneficial for you to gain better communications and relationship skills. Unless you learn how to resolve conflict constructively, I'm afraid you'll still not be proficient in resolving inevitable conflicts that will come up in your future relationships. 

IMHO, counseling is really needed in this relationship. In addition to counseling, I'd like to recommend a book Amazon.com: Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life (9781892005038): Marshall B. Rosenberg, Arun Gandhi: Books. Can you also find a local center nearby where you can both practice this technique? Consider this as a great investment on any future relationship, even if your marriage doesn't work out.

Based on the sheer passions that you both have and the seemingly lack of good relationship tools you have used so far, I'd like to believe that you guys have a better shot than most couples for restoring this relationship. That is with the willingness to look within to admit own problems and commitment to address them (plus much better communications and relationship tools). It's a mute point without the desire to work on the relationship...

Good luck, you two


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## beardedinlair (Jun 20, 2010)

thank you questions.
i think the phase of her trying to leave is over for the moment. the threat of us having to move suddenly from being evicted has made her want to work with me instead of against me. the real threat of our landlord supersedes whatever fear and doubt she has about me.
but it will happen again, as soon as things are settled. i'm going to take your advice. i'm going to get that book and work on counseling now. we aren't talking the same language.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

That's great! You two still share lots of passion so if you can transform your negative efforts into positive ones, you have the potential to having a wonderful and fulfilling relationship. You just need better tools than what you have used so far.

First, I hope to see that you use more positive language than the negative tone you took. If you think that things will revert back and state such, it will revert back. Your own fear will manifest.

*the real threat of our landlord supersedes whatever fear and doubt she has about me.
but it will happen again, as soon as things are settled.*

Next, some ground rules your might want to start to quickly change the pattern of blaming and attacking each other:

Just stop making any "EVALUATION" statement to the other (i.e. *YOU *are controlling, abusive, lazy, play victim, depressed, sick, etc). No more making any statements about your interpretation of other's behaviors. 

Change the evaluation about the other to "I statements" (i.e. I feel angry, frustrated, sad, upset, happy, relieved, etc)
Just stick to the objective and specific observation of the behaviors (i.e. Last night you played WOW from 8pm to 9pm)

Think hard WHY you are feeling the way you are feeling and the needs that are not being met for you to feel that way (i.e. "I was angry when I saw you playing WOW from 8-9Pm last night because MY needs for "companionship?????" are not met.") NOT ("you're an addict to WOW") If you can't think of any of your own needs (universal human needs) not being met, then you know you might want to revisit the reason for your own feelings.

Make a specific request on how the other can help meet your needs. (i.e. "Would you consider watching movie with me from 8-9pm every Wednesday so my needs for companionship are met?)

The point is to bring the attention from the other person back to your own feelings and needs. It will be awkward and unnatural in the beginning, but it certainly stops from the habit of immediately attacking the other person for your interpretation of her/his actions/behaviors.

Plus, please try the counseling with positive attitude and commitment that it will be different this time .

I have high hopes for you two.


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