# What's going on?



## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

This is weird that I have to type my life on a forum. Thanks to anyone who will provide some clarity.

Married for 10 years with 2 young kids. Recently relocated to another country (DH moved for work first and we joined a couple of months ago). 

Where to start??? Well, something has changed, he has changed, life seems different and miserableble all of a sudden. 

He has gone from a caring husband to distant aquaintance. We do not talk much at all, he looks serious and uninterested. 

I am trying my best to keep it together and try to engage with him but its not working. In addition to this, there are bunch of things I am unhappy about. First his close colleague, next his secretiveness, the way he ignores me and the way I react to it. It can go on. I feel miserable. 

Whats going on? I know I have not given much information but I am happy to provide more if needed. 

Thanks for reading!


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Most of the days I feel like he is cheating on me but I have no proof, just the gut feeling.


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## Danny4133 (Jul 24, 2016)

Welcome Kukabura 

You've done the right thing coming here first, always trust your gut instinct as that in itself is a red flag to something being wrong.
You say you're concerned regarding your H and his closeness to a work colleague, can you expand on that a little?

Just because your husband seems miserable could mean he may be going through issues, depression, mid life crisis (MLC) and so on.

Would you say he's disengaged from you emotionally recently ? has your sex life dipped or improved from before?

You need to start doing some sleuthing to be honest, firstly, 
Do you have access to his phone bills? if so look through them and see if any number is appearing a lot more than others.
Do you have access to his phone or does he keep it guarded? (red flag)
Is he away from home with work, or coming home later than normal / have more meetings and so on.
Can you access any of his social media platforms, facebook, twitter, whats app and the like.
Go though your joint bank account, any of the transactions look suspicious ? Ditto if he gets a statement home from his own bank account.

A few other practical suggestions would be to purchase a VAR - Voice activated Recorder, place it in the car underneath his seat (if you can get access)

Always trust your gut, and begin to dig.

Good luck


Im sure a few others will chip in, but these are the things that should be checked


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Lets first read the marriage barometer. How many times during an average month (in the current year) do ya'll have sex.


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## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

Sex is a weird one to judge by. Depression & stress can effect sex MORE than infidelity! I've heard many say that sex INCREASES during an affair.


Firstly, I'm so sorry that this is happening to you. 10 years & young kids, ugh! that is a common one. I moved from UK too USA for my husband's career. He became distant & cold. As time progressed I was living with an Alien. I couldn't believe that MY HUSBAND could be that man...but he was! 

My H works in IT. That made it incredibly hard to find what was going on. They had created a 'secret account', to this day I've never been able to get into it. I just have to take his word that it's closed. 

In the end he had bought her Mothers Day flowers & although he checked the box for no communication they bombarded his email (linked to PayPal) & he didn't delete fast enough. Is he the sort of man to buy gifts? Take it slow & 'date' her a lot? Straight to hotel? All of these things leave a trace somewhere. Check for other PayPal, Amazon accounts. Check his phone...often 'she' will be listed under a fake/male name.

To be writing on a forum your gut instincts must be going crazy. Really think about it...do you know who 'she' is? Once I thought, I just knew. 

Do you know about what time he goes to lunch? You could simply park & watch him leave. Workplace affairs are stupid! They think that no-one knows BUT colegues do!! What about a surprise visit for lunch? If your marriage is drifting apart it would be a 'nice' thing to do anyway.

I'm so sorry. I've felt isolated & lost in a foreign country away from all my family & friends. It's horrible. I've watched my husband change. I've wondered if it's the new culture, new work mates. I've suffered the devastation of the impossible coming true. I'm so very sorry.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I relocated my family to a foreign country to work for a few months. Working in a different culture with strangers adds a whole new layer of stress to an already-stressful job. This could be the cause of his change in mood. 

If you suspect an affair, I would start investigating before you make any accusations. Is he "working late" a lot? Does he ever go out with work friends on weekends or evenings? Are you able to get access to his phone without him knowing?


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Was the new job by choice or was it something he was forced to take? It has happened a few times to me where the boss comes to me and says "Your job has been abolished. Here is a new job we are offering you. Take it or there's the door." Being forced to take a new job is a hard thing to deal with. Sit him down and talk to him. Tell him how you are feeling. Maybe he hates his new job and it is stressing him out. 

How long was he there alone before you and the kids joined him?


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

One thing not mentioned yet: do NOT mention your suspicions to your husband. If he IS cheating, and you confront him, he will go further underground and he will be even harder to catch/get proof.

Please post more info, as other posters have requested. It will better help us help you.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

First of all, what makes you think he may be cheating? You mentioned his 'secretiveness' and something about a co worker. Is the co worker female? Does he guard his phone? Is there unaccounted-for time periods? Have you caught him in any outright lies about anything at all? Have you checked any phone, bank or email records yet? Are there unaccounted-for cash or credit card purchases?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> This is weird that I have to type my life on a forum. Thanks to anyone who will provide some clarity.
> 
> Married for 10 years with 2 young kids. Recently relocated to another country (DH moved for work first and we joined a couple of months ago).
> 
> ...


How long was he there without his family?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Kukabura he could be depressed.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes, we can give you are tremendous amount of info, but first we need the answers to all the questions that have been asked of you thus far so we can help you.

Getting a VAR for his car is one step I would recommend immediately even without your answers yet.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura,
so sorry you are in this place, it is difficult enough moving from one country to another and all that brings in terms of adjusting without having to deal with this also.
You H may be withdrawn for a number of reasons

1. Depending on how long you have been apart he may have got used to living the single life, now he has to readjust to you and the kids being there and the conflict between balancing work and family life has thrown him off kilter.
2. he may be struggling in his new job, new position. Dealing with new colleagues, changing role, the different cultural aspects, etc can be very daunting and he may be very afraid of failure. Some men are reluctant to let their wives know this is happening as they see their respponsibility to support the family and maybe he is afraid of failure - it happens

You have not indicated whether you have moved from and to, I thought maybe Australia to Asia somewhere. If the move was by a western expat to an Asian country there is a bigger chance of infidelity. How old are you and your H?

3. Your gut is telling you something is not right, (more often than not, your gut is the best guage)
Therefore follow the advice given here, do not let your H suspect anything that you know, feel, etc, act normal
a. start digging discretely (check pockets, phone, computer, etc)
b. keep a log of his time leaving for work, his return, names he mentions, times, meetings, people, etc.
c. try to get to know people from his office, make sure you go to any work functions, ask to be invited (colleagues can be a useful measure of what is happening, due to how they react to you)
d. tell a close friend/sister etc what you are going through, you need the emotional support esp if you are in a foreign country
e. join the group of expat ladies (usually will be one for your country), they all know everything that is going on, try to join those whose husbands work for the same company as your husband, you'll need them on your side, befriend them
f. make use of social media, if your H uses FB etc, you may be able to see who has he added to his friends in the last few months since moving
g. For the time being lie low, do not arouse his suspicions, observe, listen, record
h. If he drives his own car (not with a driver) place a VAR in the car, surprise him for lunch when kids are in kindie, invite his colleagues for dinner, do as much as you can to place yourself in his social circle. 
Too often new expat wives have no idea who, what , where he is and whom he is with.
Does your husband travel for his work?

You have to remain calm, assertive, til l you know more and for definite, do not confront at this juncture as you have no evidence, it would be a big mistake.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> Sex is a weird one to judge by. Depression & stress can effect sex MORE than infidelity! I've heard many say that sex INCREASES during an affair.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that changes in the frequency of sex is necessarily indicative of an affair. (although it can very well be) I'm saying if he wants it and she ain't giving it up a couple of times a week, he may go looking elsewhere. The overall health of the marriage and the satisfaction with one's spouse can be judged by the health of their sex life. I know what some are going to say. They are going to say that sex ain't critically important for a happy marriage. For the spouse that wants it and getting perennially rejected by their mate, it is.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Sorry to hear about that. Something similar happened to me. I moved 2,000 miles away, leaving my wife to sell the house and eventually come and join me. That took about 4 months and I got lonely and started dating my secretary and then a girl in a company we did business with. I just got used to not being married and when my wife came, I behaved as your husband did. My wife was miserable and cried that she wanted to go home. I felt real bad and told her about the girl I had been dating but no more. I asked my boss to transfer me back home because it was destroying our marriage. Two months later we were transferred close to our old city and all was well again. 

I cheated because my first fiancee and the girlfriend after her but right before my wife, cheated. The guys I worked with were cheating. My boss was cheating and I felt like cheating was part of marriage. You take your vow of fidelity with a wink and a nod knowing that more than half of spouses cheat. I was young. I got married when I was 21. I just bought a house and was a clerk for 10 months and then made a branch manager and I had no idea of how to do that. It was overwhelming for me and I got really lonely and what started as just asking a girl to lunch for female conversation and companionship ended up becoming more and more by the time my wife arrived. I had gotten used to being single again and my wife was homesick and I did not help matters at all. 

I can feel for you. Have you communicated your concerns and unhappiness to your husband? Sometimes spouses do not ask because they are afraid of the answer. It is important to communicate with your husband for your own sake as well as the sake of your marriage. I wish you luck and just know that we got it back together again and just passed our 44th year of marriage.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

We always tell posters to trust their gut. It rarely is wrong. Do you have access to his phone or the phone bill? Look to see if there is a number that he's texting or calling often. A common thing will be to list the contact Jack in fiance who is really Jill in marketing. Get into his email/social media as well. Look at credit card bills for any hotel charges.

But if he's having a work place affair, those are hard to uncover. A surprise visit to office can make your husband understand that he better watch himself and it also puts any woman on notice.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Sounds as if 10% of the proverbial iceberg is emerging from the ocean!

You better take time to put on your snorkeling gear to duly examine the 90% of it that is still well hidden beneath the bobbing wake of the calm water!*


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

FeministInPink said:


> One thing not mentioned yet:* do NOT mention your suspicions to your husband. * If he IS cheating, and you confront him, he will go further underground and he will be even harder to catch/get proof.


100% agree. 

The "soft confront" is probably the first and worst mistake the BS makes. Aside from going underground, you have to understand since affairs are fantasy land they don't need regular maintenance as in a real marriage.

When I first suspected my WW was having an affair, *I did the soft confront with zero proof*. :slap: I really believed if she was cheating she would feel so shamed she would confess. :slap: Right. All she did was shut down her affair for months at a time, zero contact. 

Was the affair over? Hell no. One discrete email after many months of no contact and it's off and running again (straight to some hotel room). Remember, affairs are about selfishness, secrets, attention, and sex. There's no need or place for constant discussion about family, children, home, finance. 

Hard lesson learned... Trust but verify everything, mouth shut... Eyes and ears open.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Kukabura said:


> This is weird that I have to type my life on a forum. Thanks to anyone who will provide some clarity.
> 
> Married for 10 years with 2 young kids. Recently relocated to another country (DH moved for work first and we joined a couple of months ago).
> 
> ...


Secretiveness is so destructive... it's an illusion of protection, because openness breaks it every time.

But still people sacrifice everything for it's hold...

It may be a depression, we don't always find ourselves in the place we thought we would be. Married, two young children, new job, new country, new perceptions of freedoms and chains, new unmindfulness. If he has fallen into a fog of depression or a selfishness (drifting into another relationship) both are debilitating. If his insurance and company policy has an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) that you can get some immediate counseling with, please take such a step quickly before the fog grows more dense. 

Honesty has no fear of the light, perhaps a small hand journal (non-electronic) would be a good thing to begin of the things accurately said and the reflections had from them... it also helps to time/date all thoughts so a proper reference is present.

While the bolded is disturbing because the gender of the close colleague is not known, let's take a step back and place our thoughts into a single camp... the choices he is making are hurting you and your family.

There are reactions, and there are actions... one is far better than the other. 

Life can become routines and often the ones we pay attention too negatively always draw the most energy... it may be best to flip that around... shake things up a little with him so to speak. Surprise him with visits and calls, keep them short as you are out and about, know his lunch and off-work times, inject yourself with fun and happiness and if he doesn't bite, go on with that fun leaving him behind happily.. you make that yourself.

You have got to get ahold of your anger and understand why... be "in touch" with it so to speak. Once you have this understanding you will respond slower to "reacting" and that will give you reflection and communication.When he disappoints you with his inattention and poor behavior, take that new calm and turn that lecture into something that can provide a clarifying statement for him to digest. 

Make "I'm sick and tired of you being miserable and ignoring the children and I" into "when these things happen with us it breaks our family for the moment and takes you away from us and it hurts to miss you and the good together" then leave him to digest this action.

Then let it go yourself with the comfort you have expressed yourself with a more positive ending. 

While you worry for your family, I think he needs to understand that you will be fine without if he continues down this rocky path. One cannot "tell" someone this, one is shown such through actions.

This negative energy will harm you for as long as you partake in it... it hurts, you love and miss him even through his poor behaviors, but it's time to learn to leave it using the same practice as one does with meditation. Pause your thoughts and let go so we can re-enter from a calmer approach, one that is loving for ourselves and recognize what is going on. The heart and mind must be in tune with another, stop allowing him to take you off-beat and out of harmony.

Please continue to share, loving and kind thought to your family as your path becomes clear... even though it may be different than you currently hope for, never lose that trust in yourself that it will.

Peace be with you...


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you everyone for the replies. I will try my best to answer all the questions

DH has been working here close to a year before we joined him. His close colleague is a male who is cheating on his wife with a woman half his age. DH knows this and he is the one who told me. I hate the fact he is still very close to this man. He picks DH to work every morning and sometimes there are female colleagues in the car. The annoying part is DH has never introduced them to me, the simply wait in the car. He hardly talks about his colleagues to me except this guy. 
I don’t usually see his bank/credit card details. His pay has considerably increased since he moved and I am sure he is spending a bit more than usual. He does not like me touching his phone and its locked. He has password protected his laptop and everything. We have had a few arguments in the last year over his family and we have been quiet upset with each other. However we usually patch up on that. I would say we are emotionally disengaged compared to how we were before he moved here. Our sex life has always been good, but after the 2nd child its different. It has increased but I feel its just sex no love. 
We are right now in a developing Asian country and I do not even know the location of his workplace. He does tell me where it is but I don’t know if I would go with 2 young kids. One thing I know for sure is women here will do anything to have an affair with expats. The thought alone makes me sick. 

He does not stay back after work. He comes home on time always. He loves his job, he took this job so that I can be a stay at home mum. He lies a lot usually and I have caught him on it a few times, nothing serious so far though. He does not have FB account and I only have one friend a neighbor with young children. She tells me scary stories of affairs that happen here. I am often busy with children, hardly have time. I am 31 and he is 38. 

I have tried to answer as many questions as possible but my paragraphs are not well organized as I have to read each post and answer.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> Sorry to hear about that. Something similar happened to me. I moved 2,000 miles away, leaving my wife to sell the house and eventually come and join me. That took about 4 months and I got lonely and started dating my secretary and then a girl in a company we did business with. I just got used to not being married and when my wife came, I behaved as your husband did. My wife was miserable and cried that she wanted to go home. I felt real bad and told her about the girl I had been dating but no more. I asked my boss to transfer me back home because it was destroying our marriage. Two months later we were transferred close to our old city and all was well again.
> 
> I cheated because my first fiancee and the girlfriend after her but right before my wife, cheated. The guys I worked with were cheating. My boss was cheating and I felt like cheating was part of marriage. You take your vow of fidelity with a wink and a nod knowing that more than half of spouses cheat. I was young. I got married when I was 21. I just bought a house and was a clerk for 10 months and then made a branch manager and I had no idea of how to do that. It was overwhelming for me and I got really lonely and what started as just asking a girl to lunch for female conversation and companionship ended up becoming more and more by the time my wife arrived. I had gotten used to being single again and my wife was homesick and I did not help matters at all.
> 
> I can feel for you. Have you communicated your concerns and unhappiness to your husband? Sometimes spouses do not ask because they are afraid of the answer. It is important to communicate with your husband for your own sake as well as the sake of your marriage. I wish you luck and just know that we got it back together again and just passed our 44th year of marriage.


Thanks for sharing! this is my fear. Yes I have spoken to him and have told him how i feel, his answer is "I'm the same, nothing wrong"


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have definitely become very concious about my looks after having children. He had mentioned it too. He adores the children and spends all his time with them. We do spend a lot of time together but do not talk anything personal just kids and general matters. 

I m missing home and regret my decision to join him. I don't like it here. I sit at the window sill and listen to sad music everyday. This is not me at all. 

About visiting him at work, he will hate that and may even resign his job if I do that. I know him, he will say I am spying on him and do not trust him.


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## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

You ARE spying on him & you DON'T trust him!

I'm sorry. I'm very bias by my own experiences. A family that I've always been very close to had horrible secrets. The younger brother was one of the kindest men I've ever known. Shortly after marrying he started working for his Dad. He was taken to a country like yours. On the first night he was taken by his FATHER & other powerful business men to a brothel. That's when he first cheated on his wife! That's when he first discovered what his Dad did on business trips to Asia. He was told that "everyone does it!". 

I know it's cliche. I'm very sorry to your husband if I have this wrong but in a culture like that, alone for a whole year, with a best friend who thinks nothing of adultery with young women....

How often was he 'socializing' before you arrived? Did he call/Skype you every night? 

You're new to that country & he hasn't introduced you to his friends & collegues?? Huge red flag! Has he ALWAYS been this secretive & controlling? You aren't painting a very pleasant picture of your husband. Are there other ex pats? Companies that relocate families usually have groups in my experience. Maybe a call to HR to discuss social groups would be good for you? Being a year 'late' you've probably missed most of the relocation seminars. You CAN take part now. Unless it's a tiny company they should have resources for you & your family. I think he's keeping you alienated from work for a reason.

I'm sorry.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Check your phone bill just because.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It doesn't seem like that much has changed. I see that you feel more lonely and depressed but maybe that's because you are staying home and not working and your in a foreign country. 
I know that when I was staying home I became more paranoid and was too much in my head. Like I had too much time to think or something. 

There is just not enough evidence for an affair. You need to keep an eye out on him but at the same time not be so overbearing that your going to drive yourself mad and ruin your own marriage because of the distrust. I think that you should give him the benefit of the doubt, until you see something that really points to an affair. You don't want to be the self for filling prophecy where you go overboard looking for something that is not there, drive yourself crazy, and start to see your husband differently which changes your relationship which "pushes" him to an affair. 

Stop looking for evidence to incriminate him and concentrate on your own life and building yourself up.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm definitely feeling lonely and depressed but not because I'm staying home. I have done this before. I don't really have any family left back at home except his. He has always been my best friend and soulmate, having him beside and yet feeling distant kills me.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He used to call me everyday when we were apart


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you all again for your responses! I just don't know how to reply with quote nor have the time. Appreciate all inputs. I'm going to look at his phone today.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Looking at his phone is the first step.

YOu have been apart for a year, did he visit you and the children in that time? How many times?

It may be a matter of trying to adjust to each other again. You may not be at your most happy or charming due to the move, it happens. A man (esp after freedom for a year) does not want to come home to an unhappy wife.
I would suggest you do all that people told you to do here, then start working on yourself, join an expat group, join an art club, a mother with children club, go to a gym, etc. Do things that will keep you happy and on the move. Sitting on the windowsill and crying or listening to sad songs will only make you spiral down further. 
(I have been in this place, wouldn't open the curtains, hated being in the new country, just lived day by day, a complete misery, of course my H didn't know what to do and came home later and later).
So for your own sake and the children's sake, shake yourself out of that , get out and find out more about the country yuu live in.

Ask your H to introduce you to his colleagues, tell him you cannot be alone in the house all the time, you need to get out. Befriend people who can babysit for you. Meanwhile keep an eye on his times, what he says, etc but do not confront or jump to conclusions till you have more solid proof of what is going on.

If it is something that happened in the past, he may be guilty and may not know how to handle it, hence the disconnect.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Managed to check his phone while he was in the bathroom. Told him I misplaced my phone and need to ring it to locate it just before he stepped into the shower. 

There are bunch of messages to all kinds of numbers some saved some not. Mostly work related but a couple of weird messages like some one asking him "can we go for a swim" and he replied "yes we can", some one asking him for money, then loads of messages between him and his good friend
He has never mentioned about any swim. 

Then checked his browser history and he has been browsing porn. There were lots of sex videos saved in the phone. 

That's all I managed to find. I'm basically ok with him watching porn especially when we are apart but these are recent right at home.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

There is nothing there to go on yet. Did you take down the numbers? Maybe you can have a girl friend call them from another phone to see who answers. Or buy a burner phone, easy to buy a sim card in asian countries without registering. Call the numbers see who answers.

The sex videos may be a habit he got into when you were not available. 

Do you have a swimming pool in your condo? or are you living in a house with a pool

Someone asking him for money doesn't sound right, though an Asian girlfriend just might, they are well known for touching up white guys for dosh. Was the number the same as the one asking to go for a swim? 

Where did he live before you and the kids came over?
Did any colleagues come over to visit? Ask innocently but don't raise any suspicions. Keep watching, recording and your mouth shut, ears and eyes open.

It is possible something was going on before you arrived but now it is shut down. Try and get acquainted with his colleagues, ask him to meet them, invite them for dinner, buy lots of wine, (you do not drink), let them talk and gossip, you never know what slips out. Tell your husband you want to meet his colleagues. Why wouldn't he want you meeting them, ask him (as that is a red flag).

You can do this. It requires patience, tenacity and silence on your part.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> There is nothing there to go on yet. Did you take down the numbers? Maybe you can have a girl friend call them from another phone to see who answers. Or buy a burner phone, easy to buy a sim card in asian countries without registering. Call the numbers see who answers.
> 
> The sex videos may be a habit he got into when you were not available.
> 
> ...


Thank you! 
We live in a house and no pool. No decent pools around here so it can't be. He used to live in a hotel which the company paid for before we arrived. The
Hotels have good pools. 

I have asked him before why he has not introduced me to his colleagues and his answer was they are not decent people.


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## Danny4133 (Jul 24, 2016)

Kukabura,

Sees to me you need piece of mind one way or the other.

If your IT savvy in anyway you can install a hidden app on his phone that will track it its activity, it's a pretty easy process involving sending it via text or picture to his phone with the clone software hidden in the background of the data package. 

This shizz is useful as you'll be able to view all texts, locate him on GPS to see where he is, movements, the texts and pictures, basically you remotely view all the phones activity from your own laptop or tablet computer.
The app hides within his phone and he wont have any idea of its ID.

It would be better if you can get hold of his phone to do this for an hour, (maybe late one night or something) ?

Here is an example
Spy Phone App | Get the Best Cell Phone Tracker, Sms tracker app

It may find no proof of any illegitimate behaviour, but then at least you'll have your piece of mind back.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Danny, 
This sounds good but I'm not IT savvy. He is way better than me and has a terrible temper. So need to be careful. I'll think about it.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

im thinking of getting him to have a fb account and see if he gets friends from this work place. Any thoughts?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have not mentioned this, he checks out every good looking girl women on the road while I'm right next to him. This is something new and started around the same time he became cold towards me.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Since when does a H have to 'protect' his wife from people who are not decent? What did you say? 

You tell him that if they are not decent it is even more reason for you to meet them and draw your own conclusions, that is not up to him!

Sounds like you have lost alot of power in this marriage, you need to take it back. While spying, start becoming more independent and doing things for yourself, getting out more, making friends, etc.

The fact that he is checking out other women is incredibly disrespectful, you should tell him so, temper or no. Has his temper changed recently too? Does he pick fights with you?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> im thinking of getting him to have a fb account and see if he gets friends from this work place. Any thoughts?


Maybe he already has one? If he knows you have access to all, maybe it will not be so useful, although you could find out more about those he hangs out with, it is possible. You can say it's for family back home, have a joint one?


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Kukabura

You will stop being treated badly, disrespectfully, the secrecy, the coldness - all will stop when you decide to stand for no more.

Anyone with a temper has a very PERSONAL problem! He needs to fix himself on that item. Anger is fine - as long as the anger motivates action to resolve the cause of the anger. That is supposing the anger is justified and not due to not getting something he thinks he deserves. 

You have mentioned several items which, to me, sound like intentional deception. "go for a swim?" have you explored that or are you afraid to ask?

I don't mean to be harsh in my words - but! What you have related in the way your husband is treating you isn't as a wife.
More, my opinion, like a housmaid/nanny.

Swallow hard and force the discussions to begin resolving your relationship, Another BUT!! Before starting, get an escape plan in place. Maybe squirrel away funds to pay for transportation back to your home country. Figure out what you will do if you have to return to your home country. Do you have any legal rights you can use? Also consider what legal rights you have where you are living currently. Both the law and the ways and thinking of society affect how you will be treated if there is a public conflict that results when you stand up asking him to respect you and the marriage.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Personally, any guy who is away from his wife for a whole YEAR would be suspect in my eyes. How often did you see him during that time?

Maybe 'swim' is a code word? You need to get some of the numbers and see what you can find out about them.

Are you sure it was just porn sites and not chat sites or adult friend finder type sites on his phone? My husband started with porn and it led to 'other' things pretty quickly and easily.

About his temper - why would he get so mad if he has nothing to hide?

About him checking other women out - that is unacceptable. Tell him he needs to stop NOW. If that makes him mad then you need more than us - you need to think about telling him it's time for marriage counseling.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Ugh I'm sorry but this doesn't sound good at all 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hylton7 (Jan 24, 2017)

always trust your gut and don't let him treat you that way


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And @Kukabura please stop listening to sad music.

Listen to up beat stuff instead.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> Since when does a H have to 'protect' his wife from people who are not decent? What did you say?
> 
> You tell him that if they are not decent it is even more reason for you to meet them and draw your own conclusions, that is not up to him!
> 
> ...


His temper only surfaces when he really gets mad. There is no change in the frequency, what has changed is his general disposition towards me. He is nice to his family, children but not me. 

He has always kept work and family life separate but bumping into his colleagues and not introducing them is kind of new. I totally feel disrespected in many ways. Btw he does not look happy. He might be angry at me. But can't be for months.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > im thinking of getting him to have a fb account and see if he gets friends from this work place. Any thoughts?
> ...


I have set up an account today saying it's for sharing kids life with family. I sent out friend request to all his contacts. He doesn't seem interested in the fb though


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

ShatteredKat said:


> Kukabura
> 
> You will stop being treated badly, disrespectfully, the secrecy, the coldness - all will stop when you decide to stand for no more.
> 
> ...


I can easily move some money to my account he never questions me on that. I will just let him know I did. We have 2 house maids but no way I will let them watch children when I'm not around. I'm going to confront him on so many things but trying to get more information before that. 

I'm pretty sure he will send us safely home should something go wrong.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

He sounds as he has checked out in your absence and doesn't know how to check back in... or want to.

I so dislike such open disrespect... as with other posters, his checking out other women is unacceptable but if his anger is so feared how would you properly approach it? I hope there is not a physical side to his tantrums, but words damage just as much... abuse is abuse.

Treating you poorly as you describe, he has replaced you with something and is resentful you are taking him away from it. That he is isolating you as such is retaliatory and fueled by the desires he feels denied.

The people he doesn't want you to meet from work may be more aware of his time there and doesn't want such actions before you arrived to become exposed... a slip of the tongue in your presence so to speak. This is all speculation of course, because all we know for sure is he is treating you very poorly with disrespect but keeping you from others is telling he has fears himself.

When we live a different world outside of the expectations of the proper path, finding our way back from the dark takes light. Perhaps he has lived a different life while you were apart and his conscious is troubling him and not fixing it is driving him deeper into unmindfulness... he will have to put aside his pride and be humble to take accept that torch to see the way together but I do not see him willing to leave that which is hurting him yet.

You are his best light... may he see that in time, but choice is owned by us all. 

The effect of that choice is own by us as well... will you continue to live in sadness or will you be open to the thought that if he continues to build his wall from you that you are prepared to leave that which is hurting you and go back to your home country where your happiness is more firm? 

The light of hope burns bright in you...


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> Personally, any guy who is away from his wife for a whole YEAR would be suspect in my eyes. How often did you see him during that time?
> 
> Maybe 'swim' is a code word? You need to get some of the numbers and see what you can find out about them.
> 
> ...


I thought the same that "swim" could be code word for something else. I will question him on all the things going through my mind. 

I can't sleep well till I get to the bottom


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## Annie123 (Apr 27, 2015)

Kukabura said:


> I thought the same that "swim" could be code word for something else. I will question him on all the things going through my mind.
> 
> I can't sleep well till I get to the bottom


When was that text sent? After he moved to the current place or while he was still living at the hotel?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> He sounds as he has checked out in your absence and doesn't know how to check back in... or want to.
> 
> I so dislike such open disrespect... as with other posters, his checking out other women is unacceptable but if his anger is so feared how would you properly approach it? I hope there is not a physical side to his tantrums, but words damage just as much... abuse is abuse.
> 
> ...


Thank you! 

You are right. Anything is possible and I'm prepared to face it. I have a good career I can go back to anytime I want and do not fear losing anything other than the stability for my children. 

I have bad feeling about everything right now.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Annie123 said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > I thought the same that "swim" could be code word for something else. I will question him on all the things going through my mind.
> ...


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

From the FB friends, any chance of accessing the new friends he has made in the current country. Any photos, etc of nights out. Worth a look.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Just checked his fb account I set up. Lots of male and female colleagues from his current place. A few women's profile utterly shocking. Seems like the kind of women who will sleep with any dog with money.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Processing everything. I have never heard about females at work. I have ever asked but his answer was "yes some in accounts department and I have nothing to do with them"


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

What should I do? Confront? Dig more?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

No photos of him anywhere


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Do not confront. You don't have anything concrete, and if there is an ongoing affair, you will only drive it further underground.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

So sorry, but its not enough evidence based on what you have, but keep digging and watch the accounts of those women. 
He was obviously 'making friends' when you were not around, and that is why he is hiding you now from his colleagues. Insist on meeting his work mates or invite them for dinner. Go out to the car in the morning and introduce yourself if he doesn't do it soon, be bold. Make him as uncomfortable as possible but do it in the nicest possible way, bowl them over with your charm.

The two maids you have, where did they come from, did he have them before you arrived? How were they recruited? They might know something?

On another note, you are alone in a new country with young kids, this kind of thing can prey on your mind if you do not have an outlet and drive you crazy. I suggest you confide in a close friend or sibling, at least to get things off your chest and keep your balance, this is a heavy load to carry alone. Try to get out of the house and make friends with the expats there, get to know others at your kids school, etc. You need this to keep yourself moving.


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## Zyria (Jan 23, 2017)

One text with a vague reference to swimming is definitely not enough. He can find a way to explain that and turn it around on you for snooping. It's frustrating when you know that something isn't right but you haven't found the proof yet. Silence is imperative until you can get your hands on information that confirms for you what is going on either way. 

Does he know you opened a Facebook account in his name? If not, what are you going to do if someone at work mentions it? That sounds very risky to me. makes me nervous.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> So sorry, but its not enough evidence based on what you have, but keep digging and watch the accounts of those women.
> He was obviously 'making friends' when you were not around, and that is why he is hiding you now from his colleagues. Insist on meeting his work mates or invite them for dinner. Go out to the car in the morning and introduce yourself if he doesn't do it soon, be bold. Make him as uncomfortable as possible but do it in the nicest possible way, bowl them over with your charm.
> 
> The two maids you have, where did they come from, did he have them before you arrived? How were they recruited? They might know something?
> ...


My kids are not in school, very young. The maids were recruited by me after I moved there so they will know nothing. I have been talking to my best friend about this and she is very supportive. My neighbour is a very lovely lady with young kids and we often have play dates and bring kids out. I'm not too bad. Not knowing what's going on H is driving me nuts


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Zyria said:


> One text with a vague reference to swimming is definitely not enough. He can find a way to explain that and turn it around on you for snooping. It's frustrating when you know that something isn't right but you haven't found the proof yet. Silence is imperative until you can get your hands on information that confirms for you what is going on either way.
> 
> Does he know you opened a Facebook account in his name? If not, what are you going to do if someone at work mentions it? That sounds very risky to me. makes me nervous.


He knows that I set up the account. Told him it's for family and I sent invitation to all contacts from his email.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't know how to express my feeling right now. I have found more stuff about him. 

First FB, saw my re friend requests. One women with a very disgusting comments on her profile pic by men posted on his wall "boss I miss you, can you please post me in your department again? Want to work with you" and that has 5 reactions. I went through the photos of all friends from his work place and they all seem like they have been attending loads of parties, events at work. My H is not seen in anything. He had also not mentioned to me about work events before. I feel like 70% of the female colleagues are plain call girls based on their profiles. I feel sick to my stomach imagining one of them with H in his hotel room. This is looking bad.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm going to check his work email today. Searching for a valid reason to give him. I can't believe that he had not shared with me anything about these ****ty colleagues. I should have known better given the reputation of this place.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you everyone for your support. I'm so consumed that I m not answering all the posts. I'm reading everything though.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura, I know your heart is heavy and frustrated right now and you are going a little stir crazy, we have all been there at one point or another, imagining the worst.
Try to keep level headed, do not put your H on notice till you do more digging, do not blow your cover and confront too early, that is the worst thing you can do. Try and act normal around him. I know your emotions may want to take over but suppress them. Start writing a journal, to let it all out, keep notes of what you have found, names, places dates, what he says, times, times. Vent in the journal, do it on your computer and password protect it (so he cannot access it, a hard copy journal may be found). This way you can let off steam but put a smile on your face when he comes home.

Has he been coming home on time every day, attending any work functions, etc? Can you access that woman's FB account? Do a search online (google) for her too or look at her friends accounts also.

I should also say, many of these type of younger Asian woman can act very familiar with their bosses. They are used to using their femininity to get what they want, whether it is a job, noticed, money etc. They just have a way of doing it that is repulsive to wives and girlfriends. However, that does not mean something was going on. I have had such women work for me, they are usually all over the male bosses but do not have the same servile approach to the female bosses that is the way it is.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

It's very difficult to act normal with hundreds of questions and emotions inside. Even the maids have sensed I'm going through something. 

He comes home plays with kids have brief conversations with me on household matters and other family members thengoes to bed. We might end up having sex most nights. This is pretty much what happens everyday. 

I will try my best not to cause suspicions


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Bad news. I'm packing my bags. Loads of **** in work email. Enough for me to leave. He blames me broke his phone and walked out. Came back in the morning and fell asleep. Tried posting early but too confused and shocked. 

I don't know how I feel, it's like I feel relieved that I'm no longer wondering but I feel very heavy and angry.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He is liar bigger liar than I thought. He has no remorse, no regrets. The only thing he regrets is giving me the password. 

Tears rolling down non stop every time I look at my children. They did not deserve this.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I keep typing everything to post from my phone and it goes missing each time before I post. Does it happen? How can I make long post using phone? I don't want to use my laptop.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Yesterday mornings before he left for work I asked him for his work email password saying I want to sign up for a country club and need work email. He was a little hesitant but gave it to me warning me not to mess up his work. I promised just to activate the club account. I thought of this as I know he has meetings every morning and he will be busy. 

I logged on to his email as soon as he left. Typed the names of people from the fb list that I felt something off. Lots of things came up... some innocent and some indecent. I can't type all but here are some examples
Female colleagues sending sexual jokes, cartoon sex videos 
Asking for money because mother is sick
Asking for dinner dates
Erotic images of lingeries pictures suggesting he buys it for me. 
Sending pictures of themselves in revealing clothes and positions with. One example, a woman wearing braless tube top with big breasts saying "I brought authentic mangoes to taste if anyone likes" this was sent to 3 people including my H. Worst is yet to come


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

There were pictures of him having dinner, drinking with group of colleagues, looks like a pub. There were both male and female colleagues. His close work mate is in all the photos. 

There were a few short video clips that shows them drunk and laughing. One picture shows some kind of celebration, lots of half naked women dressed in some dance costumes. Typing these makes me want to vomit right now. I checked the sent mails and saw his reply to one email in which a woman asks him to be her boy friend, he replied "let's see more nude pictures first"

I couldn't dig anymore, I had no time and didn't need anymore proof. I logged out and had a good cry. Spend some time thinking about future then went back to save those emails but he has changed his password during that time. He called me during lunch and I didn't hide my feeling very well, he sensed something wrong and came home early, bubblier than usual and asked me what happened to the membership. I said I don't need any membership and asked to see what has been doing behind my back. He said I don't trust him and I have invaded his privacy. He said something is very wrong with me and I need to see doctor for my mental problem. He said life is hell with me, no peace and all. Threw his phone on the floor and it broke into pieces. Walked out of the house. I tried calling him twice no reply. He came back in the morning and went straight to bed. I have not seen his after that. 

This is not the man I married, he has never been like this. I feel like I'm living with a stranger. I called my best friend and she has asked me to stay calm and do not say anymore. She wants me to leave asap.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I'm so sorry, Kukabura. You didn't deserve any of this. It sounds like he got sucked into some third-world corporate culture of debauchery. Hates himself but is taking it out on you instead. 

Are you able to take the kids back to your home country? It would be nice for you to get out of this environment and back to your support network. I hope he would not try to prevent you from doing this. Maybe there's a way you can do it without him knowing. If it comes to this, you might consider calling your embassy to find out what your rights are in this situation.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Get away from him. Anyone who would suggest you need to see a doctor for **cough** YOUR problem should be nowhere near you. 

Do not call email, text, or him unless necessary.

Find a way home.

So sorry.


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## Danny4133 (Jul 24, 2016)

Clear any joint account you have with him, absolutely rinse him for every penny before you depart. 
Proof again that you should always always trust your gut.

Kukarbua,
I'm very sorry you are here, if you have anyone you and the kids can go stay with for a couple of days then you should do so. Make plans to come home as soon as you can - with your kids too. 

Go ghost on him, it would seem he likes a life of deprivation before a life of good clean living.
You need to put you and your kids first, how do you do that ? Book the next flights home, first class on his credit card!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> There were pictures of him having dinner, drinking with group of colleagues, looks like a pub. There were both male and female colleagues. His close work mate is in all the photos.
> 
> There were a few short video clips that shows them drunk and laughing. One picture shows some kind of celebration, lots of half naked women dressed in some dance costumes. Typing these makes me want to vomit right now. I checked the sent mails and saw his reply to one email in which a woman asks him to be her boy friend, he replied "let's see more nude pictures first"
> 
> ...


Kukabura, I am so so sorry but as someone says here, your gut was totally right.
He knows he has been outed and in typical cheater mode is trying to throw blame on you and react in anger in the hope you will back off and let him rug sweep.
His comments
H_e said I don't trust him and I have invaded his privacy. He said something is very wrong with me and I need to see doctor for my mental problem. He said life is hell with me, no peace and all. Threw his phone on the floor and it broke into pieces. Walked out of the house.
_

This is all cheater stuff, you are crazy, invaded his privacy, blah blah blah, blame the victim, many have see exactly the same thing, stick to your guns. It would have been better if you had some evidence of it though. He will probably now delete all of this. 
That is why he rushed home, he sensed something was up.
You tell him that you will be going home and contacting a lawyer immediately, that he must totally come clean. I suspect he will not because what you have found is only the tip of the iceberg.
1. Please contact your family, his family, friends, and tell them what has happened. He will probably do damage control, so you get to them first, expose him, it is his shame not yours, do not cover for him
2. Make plans to return home
3. Contact a lawyer to see what your options are
4. Do the 180 on him immediately, no contact, communication, etc. 
5. He will use anger, if that is not working, he will beg and cry and say she meant nothing (he will begin to realise he is throwing away his family for cheap thrills and women who are nothing more than ****s - it happens). This is not remorse, he is just angry he got caught.
6. He stands to lose alot without the kids and will wake up and realise this
7. If you can be financially self sustaining, let his employer know what has happened, employers even in Asia frown on this type of thing, contact HR - blow up his world
8. Get tested for STDs - this is essential.
9. You should also tell the wife of his colleague who is being cheated on if you know her and blow up his world too, give the pair of them (your husband and him) something to think about.

So sorry this is happening to you, but some men do this stupid thing when they get to countries where women throw themselves at them. It shows poor judgement and lack of character. You can get through this.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you for your kind words everyone. I don't know where to start. I feel paralysed. Told the maids I'm leaving and to pack up the kids and my stuff, haven't book the ticket, haven't spoken to him. He spent his night in the kids room. He has not made any attempt to talk to me, he knows I'm planning to fly off soon. 

I am not close to my family, my mother is too old to deal with this and she lives far from me. My mother in law is very involved in our life as she lives close to us. I will tell her once I reach home. 

I feel like a fool trying to figure out why he has been acting weird last few months. Reading on this forum saved me I would say. I can't sleep or eat well right now, my mind is numb.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Good for you, Kukabura. Be strong and resolute. He's being an absolute jerk, and I suspect it's because he's overwhelmed with a level of guilt that's too hard to face. Once he has some time to think about things and see what he's losing, you'll see a better person, I hope. You've been a good wife and mother, and didn't deserve any of this. Don't let him try to convince you otherwise as a way to assuage his own guilt.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm re-reading the advice on this thread again and I must say it's helpful to put my thoughts together. 

I'm not going to talk to him about lawyer stuff, I don't know how he will react, I will do that when I'm safe back home via email. He loves the kids to bits and had missed them so much during the past year although he flew home frequently. 

I will tell his mother for sure, but she is the kind who always sides her children no matter how wrong they are, so I doubt she will be of help to me, let's see. 

I spoke to my neighbour friend(she is a local but studied in U.K.) regarding exposing at work, her advise is it's a waste and probably the top management also does these at work here. She is urging me to go back and make him get a transfer back home. I have asked him before if he can get posted back home and is answer is no job back home and this is the only project, besides, he gets paid 3x the pay here. 

I will do the STD test once I reach home. I have not moved money yet. I do have my own savings but he has more. We have no joint account but I have a set of cards to use from his account. 

He has been with kids all these while and using his laptop. I was at the neighbours house for a while. I have decided to book tickets for Monday morning. 

I don't know what my plans are for the future but I don't want to be with him. Am I being too harsh? should I work on the marriage and fix this? But it's not my job to fix it, he ruined it. This is what he does each time I'm upset, makes it look like it's all my fault.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You trusted your gut and it brought you to the truth. 

He is not remorseful. 
He is Gaslighting you.

You cannot save the relationship alone, which is what you'll be doing, based on his reactions. He is not marriage material.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> This is weird that I have to type my life on a forum. Thanks to anyone who will provide some clarity.
> 
> Married for 10 years with 2 young kids. Recently relocated to another country (DH moved for work first and we joined a couple of months ago).
> 
> ...



Very similar to my situation. My wife let herself go, sex 1x month, I don't find her physically hot, and I bought myself a sex toy. This results in Mrs.CuddleBug and I not doing much together, I'm not really interested, distant yup, and we are almost like aqaintences and roommates at times. I could talk to her about all this but she'll just get upset and nothing will really change. Am I having an affair? No.

I am sorry what you found out about him. Sounds like he was seeing someone or at least starting to see someone. 

Very inappropriate of him.

If his needs weren't being met, he should of told you and worked it out instead of doing what he is doing.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Satya said:


> You trusted your gut and it brought you to the truth.
> 
> He is not remorseful.
> He is Gaslighting you.
> ...


What is gas lighting? He has been a good partner for the past 10 years. The changes have come with the travelling for work. I know he lies a little but doubt if he had been lying to me on these kinda stuff throughout marriage. I hate the person he has become after our 2nd child


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

CuddleBug said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > This is weird that I have to type my life on a forum. Thanks to anyone who will provide some clarity.
> ...


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Sorry cuddle bug, I don't know why my post looks like that. 

Thanks for sharing


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> What is gas lighting?


Gaslighting: What is it? - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

3putt said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > What is gas lighting?
> ...


Oh wow! This is a good read, thank you!

Some of the signs mentioned seems familiar though not that serious. 

I am the one always apologising
I has made me feel like I'm confused and imagining things when it's against him. 
He denies something he just said when confronted 

Gas lighting has been a cause of some of the serious arguments we have had. But I knew I'm pretty much sane.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I am sad to read what transpired... he has lost himself, do not allow yourself to be sucked into this undertow. 

Your path is back to safe and familiar ground... lessons can be taught and lessons can be learned, but neither by the unwilling. I don't normally drift this path, but get home as quickly and as safely as you can where you can legal him 'til he glows, then divorce him in the dark.

You can always rescind if he finds his humble path to you... but time to show him the true meaning of cause and effect.

Do not own his poor choices... you are still the light he needs, may he wake to it quickly but if not, you control the switch.

ETA: loving-kindness mediation your direction for strength and mindfulness... for him, I'll offer the same to remove my grrrrrr.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Kukabura

I didn't mention in earlier post - I suspected what you have found from what you wrote before my post - It is so sorry to hear what you have found and the pain you are experiencing.

Time will help diminish the severity of your pain

Suggestion - part of getting educated about infidelity

in your browser - search for The Red Pill and cllck on the one for reddit - then search "cheaters script"

it is a version of the "cheaters handbook"

For your future, "May a warm wind fill your sails"


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura,

It is not easy on a marriage being apart for a year, the reality is that men (and women) have needs. I wonder how did you make the decision for him to go away for the year without you and his kids?

It may be that he has not done anything just messed around (though I highly doubt it), and it would depend on where your line is. For me messing around and flirting is already crossing the point of no return.

You avoid him too, until and unless he comes to you, continue with your plan. Leave when he is at work.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

How are you Kukabura? Hope you are making your plans?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> He has made me feel like I'm confused and imagining things when it's against him.
> He denies something he just said when confronted
> 
> Gas lighting has been a cause of some of the serious arguments we have had. But I knew I'm pretty much sane.


Yep, that's gaslighting. He came there and liked the 'new life' he has there with all the women and sex, but at the same time, he hates himself for liking it, so he takes it out on you because he can't face himself. 

I hope you're on your way home now.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

When men get mad at their wives it is because they have deep seated anger toward her. And they are not capable of hiding this contempt. Willing to be nice.

You did nothing wrong that we can see here.

He is angry about being tied down. He is having the time of his life with very aggressive and available women.

Before I got married and while in the military, I spent a lot of time in Southeast Asia, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand and did a R&R in Hong Kong.

Wow....women there are not like women here. 

I think he has gotten in deep with many Asian women. About six inches deep.

Your' arriving with the children shut down his party times. And IMHO that is why is angry. 

I do hope I am wrong.

Sorry.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura, How are you?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thanks all. We reached home safe. I booked tickets and told him I'm moving back, he wanted to fly with us to ensure we reach safely. I said "no need".

He insisted on coming with us to the airport and I didn't stop him. I'm angry with him but I'm not ever going deny my children of his love. We have only spoken a few words. 

He had arranged for his mother and brother to pick us from airport. They seem to sense something is wrong but did not ask me anything. I have contacted my ex boss regarding going back to work and I just need to decide on a date. 

Millions of imaginary scenarios are running through my mind last few days and have painted such gross picture in my heart. I'm more angry about the lying than what he might have done. 

We have wasted so much money on the travelling. The reason we agreed to him travelling for work is I wanted to be a SAHM after our second child. At that time he was offered a promotion and huge pay. I was meant to join him earlier but didn't dare to with infant. He missed us so much and will fly back frequently. I have clearly mentioned to him that cheating and lying are deal breakers since we started dating. And before he left for overseas I did research and freak out at the possibility of cheating. He assured me no way he can touch another women in his life and that he has no need for that. We have talked about it in length before committing.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't know how this is going to end but no way on earth will I live with him if he has cheated on me emotionally or physically. If he has just been messing around then he better have a bloody good reason and earn my trust again. I don't know how the hell is that possible.


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## Zyria (Jan 23, 2017)

You took the most important step by leaving. You can do this.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Oh did I mention? He still acted like as if I have done something very wrong till we left. No talking, no eye contact, no explanation. I feel like sending him an email to ask what heck is going on?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura, you sound like a strong person, you will need that strength in the next few months.
You should tell his family and friends exactly what you found, you do not want to leave yourself open to his rewriting of the story later, believe me he will try and paint you out to be the one who could not adjust to the new country so he does not lose face with family and friends, etc. His family may well still stand by him but they must know, do not cover for him.

Did you try and talk to him at all? Or did he just gas light you?

Start doing the 180 on him, no contact, no phone calls. If he calls to speak to his kids, hand the phone over. Let him see what he actions have led to.

Ask your friend back in the SE country whether she could organise a PI to follow your WH and take photos/evidence, they may come handy in the future and help you make decisions as you seem to be sitting on the fence. 

He is treating you in an abdominal manner, to know he has been caught and still try and cover it up and pretend nothing is happening says alot about his character. I am so sorry.

Get a lawyer when you get back and see what your options are. Make sure from now on your record everything he says to you. I suspect it could get messy for you. 

Dont forget the STD test.

He will either have a 'come to Jesus' moment and try and salvage the marriage or be glad that you have gone home and revert to his previous activities. He may well think that he can waltz back into your lives, make sure he knows he cannot.

Some western men come to SE Asia and are like kids in a sweetie shop because of the women here. Unfortunately, many get ensnared, dump their families and end up with some skank who only wants them for their money and a visa, they soon discover this after they are already stuck (seen it happen many times and heard many stories, my heart goes out to the families not the men, let them suffer on I say). 

Stay the course, get yourself some IC and a few good supportive friends.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Oh did I mention? He still acted like as if I have done something very wrong till we left. No talking, no eye contact, no explanation. I feel like sending him an email to ask what heck is going on?


Don't do it.

Let him wonder. No matter the front he may be putting up, this has impacted him.

Stick with the 180.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Don't do it.
> 
> Let him wonder. No matter the front he may be putting up, this has impacted him.
> 
> Stick with the 180.


I think he is posturing, and doesn't know what to do or his head is so much in the fog he thinks if Kuka is out of the picture he can figure out what to do or maybe things will settle down and go back to the way they were. He doesn't realise the Kukabura is not going to simply settle down and rug sweep (at least I hope not).


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have to mention this about him, he is usually shy around women, whenever we have conflict does not talk to solve the problem and wait till I make the move regardless of whether he is right or wrong. Once we feel better he will not want to talk about it anymore. 

Any thoughts on if his personality makes everything worst. I sound like I'm finding excuses for his action but I'm actually trying make sure I'm being fair in the way I portray him to get best advise.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

He screwed up.

If he can't stand stepping out of his comfort zone, with humility and honesty, to make this right, then he has not earned a shot at reconciliation.

"Husband, until you can be honest and humble about how you have betrayed our family, we have nothing to discuss regarding our marriage, except for the possibility of ending it."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So he's a shy, nonaggressive, probably insecure guy who never felt he could get the girls. At that point, getting you seemed like a win for him. Then he moved, and I'm sure his new work buddies showed him the town, and showed him how easy it is to get girls over there, and that thing he wanted so much as a teenage boy - girls flocking to him - happened, and he couldn't get enough of it. And now he hates himself for being so weak, so he does what many of us do: hurt the one we know chose us because it seems safe to do so. But he learned too late that it was NOT safe to turn this on you. If he had just been honest, you'd probably still be together.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You're doing everything right, Kukabura. Keep contact to a minimum--talk only about the kids and logistics. When the kids video chat with him, you will be out of the room and should not be roped into any face-to-face conversations. Explain to him that all contact should be via email, and only about the kids or finances. 

My guess is that he's going to have a "OMG WHAT THE HELL HAVE I DONE?" moment in the coming weeks. This will be followed by halfhearted apologies and blameshifting. You need to be tough, resilient, and make sure he faces exactly what he has done and assumes all responsibility. Over time, you can gauge how sincere and committed he is.

I once spent 10 days alone in a hotel in a foreign country, spending my days with work colleagues and evenings going out with people I didn't care about. I was miserable--I wanted my wife there so badly. He's only begun to understand how empty this will feel.

At this point, you should also speak with a lawyer, just to understand your rights.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He texted that he has moved out and have sent the maids back. He is in the hotel again. I tried my best not to reply but lost it. Told him I care nothing about what he is doing anymore. I know why he treated me badly and that I hated myself for living with a lier. He replied that I'm always jumping into conclusions and accusing him, he did nothing to betray me, he had not cheated on me and he only wanted to keep me from worrying for nothing. He says that he is offended that I think he will even touch those cheap women.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Gaslighting. Don't let him convince you that your eyes were lying to you.

Repeated for emphasis:

"Husband, until you can be honest and humble about how you have betrayed our family, we have nothing to discuss regarding our marriage, except for the possibility of ending it."


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

He is backpeddling furiously and trying to make you seem as if you are the one who is crazy, classic gaslighting. I wonder how he can explain his terrible treatment of you, his reluctance to introduce you to his colleagues, his willingness to let you go back home. 

When they try and turn it over on you comments like 'you are accusing me' 'i haven't crossed a line' 'i have done nothing wrong' etc these are all cheater speak.

He will hope you will settle down and it will all go away. Tell his family, do NOT let him gaslight you into accepting what he says, your gut did not lie.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

His mother and brother came yesterday. I told her what has happened. As expected she said "oh really?, that's what happens when you work in poor countries alone" she did not empathise with me at all, she went on to say her son always doesn't speak much and keeps his worries to himself. She wishes he will quit his job and come back home. Wants me to urge him before he is taken for good. I said he is not a child and let him decide what he wants. She agreed he would have lied but thinks I need to pull the family back together for kids. She keeps saying she believes her son would have done nothing wrong. It must be the bad company. She is very worried "for her son" not one word to make me feel better. Anyway I expect nothing less. His brother didn't say anything. She stresses me more


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Oh she said I need to take care of my looks. My H is good looking and in shape, I'm not glamorous but people always say I have a pretty face. I'm petite but have put on some pounds around the waist after child birth. MILs comment on my looks has offended me. This why I took so long to tell her.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What a piece of work your MIL is.

Ignore everything she just told you. She is part of the problem.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Kukabura said:


> H He says that he is offended that I think he will even touch those cheap women.


He says they are cheap because he knows this through experience.

If this marriage is ever to continue, *he would need to take a lie-detector test.* A poly-graph to see if he is living the poly lifestyle.

If he has not cheated then he is mostly guilty of disrespect to you. Not having your back.

I would be surprised if he did not fall for at least one of those sirens. But without an admission of guilt then you can only presume. 

Presume in this case is a bag full of stuffed hotties. Collectively, they are dense flesh, very heavy, indeed, in deed and in fantasy.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Kukabura said:


> Oh she said I need to take care of my looks. My H is good looking and in shape, I'm not glamorous but people always say I have a pretty face. I'm petite but have put on some pounds around the waist after child birth. MILs comment on my looks has offended me. This why I took so long to tell her.


Kukabura,
I just want you to know that I am impressed with how you have handled this very difficult situation. I'm glad that you have resisted the temptation of trying to keep your family together by allowing your husband to treat you with such disrespect. No matter how difficult being a single mother may be, you do not need your husband back. Aside from his recent behavior with other women - keeping you in the dark - then gas lighting you, he has previously had difficulties with honesty and has a bad temper. Do yourself a favor and stay away from this person.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> His mother and brother came yesterday. I told her what has happened. As expected she said "oh really?, that's what happens when you work in poor countries alone" she did not empathise with me at all, she went on to say her son always doesn't speak much and keeps his worries to himself. She wishes he will quit his job and come back home. Wants me to urge him before he is taken for good. I said he is not a child and let him decide what he wants. She agreed he would have lied but thinks I need to pull the family back together for kids. She keeps saying she believes her son would have done nothing wrong. It must be the bad company. She is very worried "for her son" not one word to make me feel better. Anyway I expect nothing less. His brother didn't say anything. She stresses me more


Your MIL sounds awful! Of course blame it on the wife. 
Your H is probably a typical mammas boy who can do no wrong. It is likely he has been brought up with a sense of entitlement and lack of any clue as to what it means to be responsible for ones own actions. 
You have told her, let her feast on that for a while but from here on out do not let her know anything about what you are planning to do. Do not let her engage you with this subject, she can see the kids but that is it.
I hope you have some close friends you can lean on and share with? 
I hope you get your old job back so that you can keep occupied, who will look after the children?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thanks for the support and advice everyone. 

I know his mother so no surprises. Well I married him knowing he lies but not to this extend. When I first met my mil she did tell me "he lies so be careful". My H has been a great husband apart from his inability to own his mistakes and apologize in time until I joined him. Everything vanished after I moved in with him overseas. Well anyway, the way he ignored me and the things he has hidden from me is good enough for me to leave him.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have no plans to update mil anything. My mother is coming to stay with me for a few months. My kids will go to day care with me. I'm a day care director. Not something I wanted for them till the second one is 3 but I have no choice now.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Turnera, he was a very attractive man when we first met. I know some girls who badly wanted him because he was that mysterious, handsome gentleman every girl dreams of. But too bad behind the mystery lies loads of lies probably. But I can't discount the husband he has been before this whole thing started. I do miss the husband he was before he went overseas.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Turnera, he was a very attractive man when we first met. I know some girls who badly wanted him because he was that mysterious, handsome gentleman every girl dreams of. But too bad behind the mystery lies loads of lies probably. But I can't discount the husband he has been before this whole thing started. I do miss the husband he was before he went overseas.


Was he that good of a husband, or was your image of him mistaken?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > Turnera, he was a very attractive man when we first met. I know some girls who badly wanted him because he was that mysterious, handsome gentleman every girl dreams of. But too bad behind the mystery lies loads of lies probably. But I can't discount the husband he has been before this whole thing started. I do miss the husband he was before he went overseas.
> ...


Well I didn't have much expectations before marriage so I definitely think he was a good husband. I always get my morning coffee ready when I wake up, always puts me before his family, treats my mother with utmost kindness, shares all chores and does more than me sometimes, has never ever shown disrespect except the little lies and some gaslighting. Treats all his subordinates well regardless of their position. Helps friends, family and colleagues in financial distress, has never been jeolous, if I say I like something he will try his best to get it for me, he supported me 6 years through my bachelor to masters degree without a complaint. These are some that comes to mind. It may not be good enough for some but I can't make him look like a monster husband. But what he has been doing to me last few months is unacceptable and I'm not happy at all. 
Well all these before the indifference started.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have wrote to him a very very long email demanding answer to all my questions. I have put in every incident. Have told him that I will see a lawyer if he doesn't reply in two days.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What were the little lies covering up?

What would he do when he had to be honest about something big?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Just another mom that thinks her son is the best thing since sliced bread and can do no wrong. The fault is all yours because your looks aren't in tip top shape. Yeah, right. Don't accept any of that nonsense.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> I have wrote to him a very very long email demanding answer to all my questions. I have put in every incident. Have told him that I will see a lawyer if he doesn't reply in two days.


Don't be surprised if you get no reply. 

Or, it'll be a reply with lots of waffling, blameshifting, and gaslighting. Know your standards on your expected quality of his reply and if he doesn't meet it, talk with your lawyer.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> What were the little lies covering up?
> 
> What would he do when he had to be honest about something big?


He smokes in the toilet and when asked he would say "no" 

Meets with friends has a few drinks comes home and denies

Buys me a gift for 500 but tells me it's 200

Gives a friend a huge amount of money and doesn't tell me

Goes to supermarket forgets to buy nappies and says I did not mention. 

These are the kinds I have had arguments with him but there are more like jokes making up a fake story to emphasize a point but often laughs it off.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So you became his mother.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> He smokes in the toilet and when asked he would say "no"
> 
> Meets with friends has a few drinks comes home and denies
> 
> ...


He sounds like a jerk, even when he wasn't cheating. You're better off without him.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You need to contact a lawyer regardless. Are you really thinking of staying married to him???


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> You need to contact a lawyer regardless. Are you really thinking of staying married to him???


No I need to know actually what happened before I make my decision


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Unbelievable, he replied. He had answered each one of my question. 

First he apologizes for the way I feel. He says he doesn't know what do do and how to solve this. He says he is ashamed but maintains he has not cheated on me emotionally or physically. 

His reason for behaving badly after I joined him is something I did not expect. He says I treated him poorly after our second child. I kept blaming him for everything that went wrong from the decision join him to getting maids ( I was very frustrated that he did not prepare the maids before we arrived and I had to ferry around the third world to get maids). He says he wanted to share with me about his colleagues but he decided not to after he noticed I can't deal with his best friends affair. He basically felt like I had post partum after our second and that I was the one who changed not him. But for the first time he says he takes the blame for everything because he could have dealt with it all differently but he did not. He says he has been too egoistic. 

Regarding the office pictures, he acknowledges that there are lots of things he has not told me but keeps assuring that he did not do anything to cheat me. There are some parties he has to attend as they were organised by his bosses. He says he usually just stays around for a while and leaves. He says having a affair and cheating does not take more than a minute of temptation here but he says he knows the reason taking up this job. He says during Christmas he has told his boss to post him back home as he does not like it here. 

I had to continue in my next post


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Well, that's a start. Do you think he's telling the truth? And if he asked his boss to post him back home over Christmas, why didn't he tell you? Is there any update on the progress of that?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He says he will not be able to live without us and is willing to do anything. He says I need to understand that my anger issues after the second child pushed him away. Throughout the mail he mentions he takes full responsibility for what has happened. 

He ended the it with "I'm tendering resignation with immediate effect. 

I m so confused. I don't know if I should believe him. I did not reply. I need details but still I don't know if the pain I feel will ever go away. It's more painful today than ever


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

It sounds to me like he's willing to do whatever it takes, and I don't think you're ready to divorce over this. He's willing to quit his job for your marriage. That's pretty significant.

You can ask him for more details, if that's what you need.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

His resignation is a teeny tiny start. I am doubtful he will follow through though. He's telling you what you want to hear right now. He doesn't think you're going to do anything in the long run, because you haven't in the past. 

He can SAY whatever he wants, but you've already established he's a liar and a cheat. Why do you believe him??

Also, you are NEVER going to KNOW what happened. All you will know is what the liar tells you. Even if you DO find out everything, you will always think there's more. Even if there isn't. Why put yourself through THAT?

You REALLY need to see a lawyer and get D started.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Not buying it.

Blaming you?

"Husband, fixing this starts with your honesty and humility. Blaming your actions on anything else besides your own choices tells me you currently possess neither."

Don't fall for it.

This is how things get swept under the rug.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> Not buying it.
> Don't fall for it.
> 
> This is how things get swept under the rug.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I'll be in the minority and say this is plausible. Marriages go through troughs and you've had one. People push each other away at times. A couple needs to be resilient and listen. I don't know what happened but you sound like you are on a path to find out and see if you can work through this 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'll be in the minority and say this is plausible. Marriages go through troughs and you've had one. People push each other away at times. A couple needs to be resilient and listen. I don't know what happened but you sound like you are on a path to find out and see if you can work through this


I agree, so we can be a minority of two.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Remind him that he's not trustworthy because of all the lies he's told in the past. Tell him this is his one big chance to come clean. Tell him you've accepted the fact that he's been with other women and that you think it's not a dealbreaker for you so long as he's honest. This last part may or may not be true, but in this situation I believe you have the right to lie to him to get to the truth. Tell him that you'd just like the details about how many there were, how many times, and whether he used protection.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He really quit his job. 

He texted me last night that he is flying home today and his brother is picking him. 

He reached a few hrs ago. I wasn't prepared for this. He walked in and hugged me tight which has not happened for sometimes. I did not react. The kids screamed in joy. His brother left shortly. He said he is back for good and is going to look for job here. I just listened with occasional eye contact. He seemed happy and confident of not sure what. I asked him to give me some time to move my stuff into the spare room but he said "oh, in that case I will stay in that room till you will let me in our room". I said thanks moved on to make dinner. He has ubrought back quiet a few bags and was unpacking everything in that room. Used the common bathroom which the kids use and stayed with kids. He just left the house. This is really hard, Seeing him has caused more pain and anger, I just feel like he needs to suffer. Call me evil that's how I feel. But I'm not acting on that. I'm going to quickly get the kids in bed and lock myself in my room.


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## MyTurn (Oct 27, 2013)

After your confession to mil and his brother ,I believe his brother told him that things are suriuse and 
If he wants to save this he needs to come back home asap.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> He says he will not be able to live without us and is willing to do anything. He says I need to understand that my anger issues after the second child pushed him away. Throughout the mail he mentions he takes full responsibility for what has happened.
> 
> He ended the it with "I'm tendering resignation with immediate effect.
> 
> I m so confused. I don't know if I should believe him. I did not reply. I need details but still I don't know if the pain I feel will ever go away. It's more painful today than ever


I still hear alot of blame shifting and gas lighting going on. Blaming your anger, your post partum, etc what about his awful behaviour in Asia. Be very careful how you proceed. I would not reply, take time to think about what you saw in the emails, the photos the messages, etc, he is trying to make it seem like you are the problem. He is back home now in the hopes you will just forget it all and move on, don't, you need to know the full truth of what happened and if he cheated on you, your gut is the best clue you have.

You both still need STD tests, make sure he knows that is what you are doing. A lie detector is in order and if you still want him in your life MC.

Did you have problems with anger, depression etc. What did he do to help you?

You are only hearing a very sanitized version of events, I wouldn't believe him, he has shown you what he is capable of, the hurt and pain you have felt is real, what is to stop him doing this again?

Still go see the lawyer, your WH needs a major come to Jesus moment. Do not engage or commit, show him you are unwilling to engage with him until you are satisfied he has told your everything. Do the 180, emotionally detach for now, get papers drawn up. 
Show him you mean business and will never be treated so badly ever again. Coming home is a move in the right direction but maybe an attempt by him to rug sweep and move on, he knew that you would probably move on without him. Don't let him back into your life so easily. 

Tbh, Kukabura, if nothing had happened in the Asian country, he wouldn't be pulling out all the stops, he would have sat you down and been honest as he would have nothing to hide, both of you know that he has cheated on you, his behaviour and reaction is showing it all. He was like a deer caught in the headlights in Asia when you found the mails, he didn't know what to do, damned if he said something, damned if he didn't. He is guilty, no doubt about it.

In moving forward with or without him, you need the full truth, otherwise it will eat you up and your marriage is doomed anyhow. He needs to know this.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Honesty and humility are required. 

I see hints of humility, now. That is progress. But remember, without honesty, you still don't have a real reconciliation.

The full truth or no deal.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Sounds like he's fully-committed to rugsweeping. You're not supposed to talk about it anymore. He's shown he's sorry by quitting, coming home, and offering to sleep in the other room. When the whole thing has been adequately swept under the rug, you're supposed to invite him back into the bedroom, and never mention it again. 

Your desire to see him break down and cry is completely normal and understandable. That will be the beginnings of real remorse. You should do whatever is necessary to get him there. This should be followed by an honest, full confession on his part.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you all for the guidance, it's really helpful in keeping me in control. 

We had a sleepless night. He came home after the kids were asleep and asked me to sit down to talk, I was really not in a mood and told him there is nothing to talk, he then asked how can he fix this if I'm not willing to work it out. I told him nothing other than complete history and truth is going to help me and that I know he is not capable of that. I told him I want a D and I will not stop him from seeing the kids etc but I don't want to be his wife anymore. I told him I have seen a lawyer and asked him what he would like to do with the house (he has paid 90% and I only 10%). He said he doesn't want anything but his family, he said if that's what I want I can keep the house for the children and he will move out. He said if I go through official D he may kill himself as he can't live like that. I did not say all these to scare him I just don't feel like working through this.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I left him sitting and went for a shower. When I came out after an hour he was still sitting there with his hands on his head. I can't tell if he was angry or sad. He said ok sit down I will tell you. 

He started from his childhood which is not what I wanted. He told me things that I do not know, the physical and emotional abuse he went through as a boy. He seemed like he was in a pity party. He moved on to meeting me and and then everything as I know till he started travelling for work. He admitted that he has hidden a lot from me for the past 2 years.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I need to attend to kids now will post the rest later


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The suicide threat must be taken seriously, no matter how much it may appear to be emotional blackmail.

If he EVER threatens suicide, call 911 or the equivalent.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I would consider his threat just manipulation at this point. Lying didn't work, hostility didn't work, so now he's on to more advanced tactics. I do believe that his family means very much to him in his compartmentalized life. However, if he believed that the loss of his family was going to result in his suicide, he wouldn't have <i>even risked</i> fooling around with the corporate concubines. Nobody would play Russian roulette just for an opportunity to have sex. He figured he'd get away with it and even if you found out, things could be somehow smoothed over. 

You are not responsible for the things that happened in his childhood. He represented himself to you as a grown, responsible man, capable of honoring a marriage commitment. It's time for him to man up and fess up about the things he's been hiding for the past two years, and take full responsibility for those things.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> I left him sitting and went for a shower. When I came out after an hour he was still sitting there with his hands on his head. I can't tell if he was angry or sad. He said ok sit down I will tell you.
> 
> He started from his childhood which is not what I wanted. He told me things that I do not know, the physical and emotional abuse he went through as a boy. He seemed like he was in a pity party. He moved on to meeting me and and then everything as I know till he started travelling for work. He admitted that he has hidden a lot from me for the past 2 years.


K, this is dejavu for me, my WH pulled the same stunt, childhood abuse (which was true), reason for him being weak, blah blah blah. While I wouldn't discount the effect of that on anyone, that is no excuse to treat the person who is supposed to be your other half like ****. 
If he really wants to use that as an excuse he needs to show he is committed to becoming a better man and must go to counselling (mine did and its changing him for the better, he is also an alcoholic, which he's working on too). There is no other way. Your WH cannot dump all of that on you and expect to sweep it under the carpet.

In no way is this your fault, and to use manipulation and attempt to garner pity (traits of a narcissist) shows little regard for the pain he has caused you and indirectly his children.

If you look at it objectively, it is still all about him and his pain, and his past and his troubles.....nothing about you. It may well be that he will never be able to empathize or feel your pain, sometimes they are not capable of it. You may have been the stronger one emotionally but when you became weak (after having kids, post partum depression etc) he took that as being a slight on him rather than being the man he should have been (that was my experience, I went into depression after my last move and he abandoned me emotionally). 

You have to settle your emotions first and think about the consequences of a divorce on you all. You also have to consider the other side, will you ever get want you really want from this man, is he capable of loving you the way you want to be loved. If you want to give him that chance, he has to get counselling, work through his issues, then couples counselling. 
You may want to run now, sometimes it is the easier thing to do but I would say you shouldn't make life changing decisions at this point in time, but stay the course for now. You are doing well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> Unbelievable, he replied. He had answered each one of my question.
> 
> First he apologizes for the way I feel. He says he doesn't know what do do and how to solve this. He says he is ashamed but maintains he has not cheated on me emotionally or physically.
> 
> ...


:rofl:

You're not actually BUYING this drivel, are you? Notice the only thing HE did wrong was 'have an ego.' And all the issues are YOUR fault.

You are being gaslighted. Look it up - gaslighting.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> I left him sitting and went for a shower. When I came out after an hour he was still sitting there with his hands on his head. I can't tell if he was angry or sad. He said ok sit down I will tell you.
> 
> He started from his childhood which is not what I wanted. He told me things that I do not know, the physical and emotional abuse he went through as a boy. He seemed like he was in a pity party. He moved on to meeting me and and then everything as I know till he started travelling for work. He admitted that he has hidden a lot from me for the past 2 years.


I wish you'd had a camera on him while you left. I'd bet MONEY that he wasn't sitting there the whole time you were gone, that when he heard the shower stop, he ran back to his seat, put his hands on his head, and prepared his ACT.

He still hasn't admitted anything. Remember that. You had proof, didn't you?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Well I'm feeling too tired to post full details but here are the things he had told me last night and said there is nothing more I don't know. 

He had been going out for dinner and drinks with colleagues male and female after work 2 to 3 times a week. I have previously asked him if he does these as this place is famous for eating and drinking in groups. He had said not in groups only with close friend. 

He had lend money to a female colleague as she claimed her mother was sick and it was not just him but a few other expats. He says he knew she may be lying but I just gave it anyway. 

He had been to the company parties where colleagues drink and pick up girls from work and outside work to the hotel rooms after the party. He swears he stays for one drink and leaves soon before things get dirty. He had avoided some parties if his boss isn't joining.

One of the party was a nude party with some hired girls all walking and serving them in nude. He said he was tricked into going and that he left soon he saw the nude girls. He says he may have stayed for about 15 mins. He said he heard about the full party story the next day. That's when he told the boss he would like to move back. 

He had had female colleague trying to hug him, trying to seduce him to have an affair but he says he told her he is not interested. She kept sending emails that portrays wives as ugly. 

80% of expats living without family is having affair. Some of them having serious family problem and others in the process of D

He says he has not touched any of these women. 

I asked about his email on asking for nude pics and he showed me the email a random girl sent him asking if she can be his girl friend and he suspected its one of the female colleague so asked for nude pics to see if it's her. He says he did not hear anything back. 

He has not deleted the mails I saw. He showed them again and it was all sent by others to him and to other male colleagues. He has not replied. He showed me an email that he had forwarded to his boss saying "look what everyone is doing on the company email" and the boss jokes about it.

I need a break to type the rest. Loads of ****


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Sigh... so hard to know what the truth is. My bet is that he was sexually involved, but I do not know your husband. Any way you can get the email addresses from these women from his email? Perhaps send them an email informing them that they need to contact you because your husband has been diagnosed with an STD and is at the hospital. That they should contact you for more information about the nature of the disease. It's a dirty trick, but it might get them to spill the beans on whether they've had sex with your husband. To be blunt, there is a whole lot of ignorance in SE Asia, so it just might work. 

If I received an anonymous email from a woman and wanted to know the sender's identity, I would ask "Is that you, Sally? I'm married." I wouldn't say "Please send me a nude photo." He's at least lying about this piece of not the rest of it, and it's a pretty lame-ass lie at that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> He had been going out for dinner and drinks with colleagues male and female after work 2 to 3 times a week.


 So every OTHER NIGHT for how many months, he was out partying.



> He had been to the company parties where colleagues drink and pick up girls from work and outside work to the hotel rooms after the party. He swears he stays for one drink and leaves soon before things get dirty.


Great. So set up the polygraph exam so he can PROVE that he only stayed for one drink. Or you divorce.



> He said he was *tricked* into going and that he left soon he saw the nude girls. He says he may have stayed for about 15 mins. He said he heard about the full party story the next day. That's when he told the boss he would like to move back.


Ok, so let him prove the 15 minutes in the polygraph. And he is saying now that he requested a transfer BEFORE you moved back to the states? Let him prove it. IMO, it's just gaslighting. Ask to speak to his boss to get the timeline straight.



> He says he has not touched any of these women.


Polygraph time.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Well I'm feeling too tired to post full details but here are the things he had told me last night and said there is nothing more I don't know.
> 
> He had been going out for dinner and drinks with colleagues male and female after work 2 to 3 times a week. I have previously asked him if he does these as this place is famous for eating and drinking in groups. He had said not in groups only with close friend.
> 
> ...



I am sorry Kukabura, he is lying through his teeth.

There are so many red flags all over this. Please stay the course and do not succumb to his lies. The only way forward, is if he cuts the bull**** and comes totally clean. In fact, you must record everything he says (surreptiously) and then you can cross check when he doesn't keep his facts straight. The best thing would be a polygraphy. The only thing you want to know, is did he sleep with, sexually touch etc someone. As it is he is trickle truthing you, keep a recording. He will slip up. Sorry you are here but you can hold it together and get to the truth.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

That is a load of crap.

10 to 1 says the money to help the "co-worker" went to a working girl.

He is full of ****.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I kind of encouraged him to take this job due to our financial status as I had to quit when I got pregnant with the second one. We have clearly communicated what is okay and what is not before he went and he fully agreed with me.

Drinking with males friends is okay females is not okay
Porn is okay live porn is not okay
Female friends are okay but going out with them is not okay 
Being too close to cheating colleague is not ok
I have asked him to be transparent about everything that happens so that I don't have to panic

He had not fulfilled his promises

I did have ppd after my second but it's not the reason for my unhappiness, even if it's the case he did not help me with that

So I don't feel like I want to sort all of this mess. He is willing to let me and the kids have the house and I planned stay away from him till I figure out what I want. Right now I don't want to work anything out with him.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> That is a load of crap.
> 
> 10 to 1 says the money to help the "co-worker" went to a working girl.
> 
> He is full of ****.


Btw the money was really small only $100 one time


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He quit with immediate effect, we lost lots money moving in and out, lost money on the lease. We are financially and emotionally ruined.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

turnera said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > Unbelievable, he replied. He had answered each one of my question.
> ...


His ego has always been bigger than anything else in the world


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Sigh... so hard to know what the truth is. My bet is that he was sexually involved, but I do not know your husband. Any way you can get the email addresses from these women from his email? Perhaps send them an email informing them that they need to contact you because your husband has been diagnosed with an STD and is at the hospital. That they should contact you for more information about the nature of the disease. It's a dirty trick, but it might get them to spill the beans on whether they've had sex with your husband. To be blunt, there is a whole lot of ignorance in SE Asia, so it just might work.
> 
> If I received an anonymous email from a woman and wanted to know the sender's identity, I would ask "Is that you, Sally? I'm married." I wouldn't say "Please send me a nude photo." He's at least lying about this piece of not the rest of it, and it's a pretty lame-ass lie at that.


At this point I don't know if I want find out anything at all. I will do the std test though


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > Well I'm feeling too tired to post full details but here are the things he had told me last night and said there is nothing more I don't know.
> ...


Thanks! You seem to know this part of the world well, in all honesty I know him for 10 years and I'm sure he generally not a womaniser but in such circumstances one can never tell. 

I feel lack of opportunity is otherwise known as chastity

Whatever I'm I feel like I don't care


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

MyTurn said:


> After your confession to mil and his brother ,I believe his brother told him that things are suriuse and
> If he wants to save this he needs to come back home asap.


I don't think so he doesn't like to discuss his personal life with his family and his brother will never tell him what to do nor will support me. That's their family history


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm wondering if I should ask him to leave or just let him stay in the room? 

The kids love him to bits and he is a great father. They have missed him so much.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> Thanks! You seem to know this part of the world well, in all honesty I know him for 10 years and I'm sure he generally not a womaniser but in such circumstances one can never tell.
> 
> I feel lack of opportunity is otherwise known as chastity
> 
> Whatever I'm I feel like I don't care


My H goes over there quite often. In Thailand, for example, an American man can't walk down the street without being propositioned half a dozen times. Sometimes it's the mom trying to give him the daughter for the night. And the daughter is usually 13 or 14. He has a friend who lives there who says it's all they know and once they reach about 18, they're considered washed up, no value, so then they go work on farms or something. H said girls would come up to him in the McDonalds and try to sell themselves; nobody cares - it's just what you do if you're a girl.

And over there, $100 would pay your way for a few months. A girl for the night would probably cost you $10.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> I'm wondering if I should ask him to leave or just let him stay in the room?
> 
> The kids love him to bits and he is a great father. They have missed him so much.


In my experience here, men who move to a different room usually end up 'begging' you for sex or to move back into the bedroom within weeks. Which makes YOU the bad guy to say no. But it doesn't sound like you have the money for him to go somewhere else?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Kukabura said:


> I don't think so he doesn't like to discuss his personal life with his family and his brother will never tell him what to do nor will support me. That's their family history




Be very careful acting on the advice you've received here. Most on TAM here have had bad experiences and think the worst. Many times they're right, but not always.

I've never had infidelity impact my marriage so I am not as cynical. My question is this: what would a guy do in this situation if he ISN'T cheating? I know, in my case, getting a lap dance or being around people like this would make me feel and appear guilty / because I'd see first hand how easy it is to lie and cheat. Even a little encroachment on my boundaries would make me look guilty.

So don't make any rash decisions. It's all on him to fix this anyway. Give him a chance to deal with his shame and guilt and know he's lost his family or is about to. If he's a good man he'll step up.

Either way you should focus on yourself and the kids right now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

turnera said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks! You seem to know this part of the world well, in all honesty I know him for 10 years and I'm sure he generally not a womaniser but in such circumstances one can never tell.
> ...


I have been to Thailand and I have seen how it works there (not seen anyone underage though) This is another country with similar values but less rigorous.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think so he doesn't like to discuss his personal life with his family and his brother will never tell him what to do nor will support me. That's their family history
> ...


Thank you for this. I understand, i know myself and my husband better than anyone. I try to keep in my mind that I might have not portrayed him 100% as who is and that could affect the advice I get. The advice does makes me understand the situation better but I am doing what I want.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I thought about the arrangement and feel it's not fair to ask him to move out, this house is his everything, he had put in a lot of money and effort. Let him stay till I come to decision.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I think you're making a mistake by not kicking him out, but it's your decision of course.

I am VERY glad to see you staying strong so far. But guaranteed he is still lying and only telling you what he thinks you might have proof of. No cheater ever born would EVER admit to having sex if they thought their spouse didn't already know they had sex.

Two terms you need to be familiar with

Gaslighting: "Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or members of a group, hoping to make targets question their own memory, perception, and sanity."

Trickle Truth: "Let’s call trickle truth what it is — continued lies by omission.

Really at best trickle truth is leaving out the damning crap you haven’t discovered yet. It’s also minimization (she’s just a friend!) and gaslighting (I wasn’t at the hotel!) — and chumps spackle the entire thing into a phenomena they call “trickle truth.”

No — trickle truth is just a continuation of cheater think and entitlement. They enjoy the power of their secrets. They feel entitled to keep the truth from you. They feel entitled to misrepresent their affairs and lead you to believe it’s harmless and you’ve misunderstood them. If you want to get ANYTHING off this cheater, you’re going to have to work for it! And then they’ll deny and soft pedal what you found."


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Kukabura said:


> Btw the money was really small *only $100 one time*


Huh???

Did noone catch this? Is there any way that we might be blowing things out of proportion?

This isn't exactly good evidence that your H is blowing money on hookers. Even in Thailand.

Do you have any emails or texts saying "I love your ****" or something along those lines indicating he has been sexual with other women? 

Is there any way you could be going a bit overboard? Because if all you have is photographs in bars with co-workers, IMO that wouldn't be enough to blow up a marriage. A hard discussion about boundaries maybe...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Btw I do think he was sh1tty toward you there and that's not acceptable - particularly going forward. But he could have been prideful and indignant - and people can get very stubborn when pushed into a corner. I suspect he is no angel but have no idea beyond that. You'll have to remain true to yourself while you navigate this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Today he offered to fully take care of the children and asked me to do whatever I want. I went out with my good friend, spent some time at the park sitting by myself. I felt so lonely. I have missed him so much for sometimes now, he has been emotionally absent and I needed to know the reason. 

Came home to sleeping children and a clean house. His way of showing he loves and cares is through doing things for them, so I guess what he is doing there. Anyway I walked in and went straight to his room and asked "why did u treat me like ****? Why was he emotionally absent when I most needed him, why did he kept checking other women making me feel ugly, why did he marry me? And why he refused give what I want even after repeated asking. I just poured the questions on him and cried. He tried to touch me and I said "don't ever touch me till you give me all the reasons" I told him lies hurt more than cheating. He just stood there looking at me and said I can tell but you are not going to trust me anymore. I assured that I can sense well if it is true or not. He said I have offended him and his family 4 times after he went overseas. He told me about the exact incidents and I remember it was all about his siblings and mother. I do agree 2 of it was pretty offensive and I did not apologize. He says he doesn't know why he is looking at other women he says he doesn't even realise it. But swears definitely not about my looks.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Kukabura, were those incidents so bad that they would be a valid reason for him behaving as badly as he did behave?

If so, there are clearly issues that you need to work on.

However, if they weren't all that serious then it could well be that he is seeking out excuses to justify his appalling behaviour toward you.

Looking back on what you did, how he has treated you, which of those explanations for how he treated you is the most likely true, genuine explanation?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Explain more about the family incidents that he says is why he gave you the cold shoulder.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm sorry - he turned things around and now suddenly this is about stuff YOU did wrong?!?!?!? Holy crap he's a jerk.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

His mum was annoying the crap out of me after the second was born. She would say things like "I wish I could take this baby with me and bring her up myself" "I had more breast milk than you after child birth" etc. she was literally at my place everyday and came unannounced. She would comment on everything I did. He was overseas at that time and I kept him informed of this and how I feel about it. He will acknowledge my feelings but did nothing to stop the problem. I was already suffering from mild ppd at the time and mil made it worst. He used to fly home as often as possible during this time but spent most of his time at the living room with his mother and kids, I felt left out and expressed my unhappiness. It went to the point mil will compete with me for everything. One night during an argument I told him that his mum wants to be his wife. I felt bad about what I said but did not apologize. He did turn cold towards me right after the incident. And there was another time I commented something not nice about his siblings which he got very upset. 

Our relationship did not improve much after these series of arguments. And we decided to move together to also avoid these.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That explains a LOT. You're better off without him; he will never put you ahead of his family. It's what he knows. And wants. You're just there to make him feel better. And sure as hell not to complain. Then you're no good to him.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Sorry, Kukabura, but if my mother was denigrating the mother of my newborn child, I'd tell her to lay off. If she refused, I'd cut her out of my life. If defending yourself from his mother is your biggest "offense" then your husband has deeper issues than just his affairs. 

Is he himself from some third-world culture that devalues women? The kind where the son is always Momma's boy and can do no wrong? Where the son's wife is some sort of unwanted interloper on their nuclear family? 

I've seen this before, but never from developed cultures. His behavior wouldn't wash in a Western society. Ask any of your friends.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Btw I do think he was sh1tty toward you there and that's not acceptable - particularly going forward. But he could have been prideful and indignant - and people can get very stubborn when pushed into a corner. I suspect he is no angel but have no idea beyond that. You'll have to remain true to yourself while you navigate this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The TruthHurts, in the same way you ask Kukabura to be careful of the advice of those who have been cheated on before, I would also caution her on taking advice from someone who has never experienced the gut wrenching 'knowing' that their SO is doing something to damage the marriage, the finding of emails, photos, etc all of which no married partner should have or engage in. 

It is easy to be less cynical and if I may say so somewhat naive when you have never been in that position in the first place.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Today he offered to fully take care of the children and asked me to do whatever I want. I went out with my good friend, spent some time at the park sitting by myself. I felt so lonely. I have missed him so much for sometimes now, he has been emotionally absent and I needed to know the reason.
> 
> Came home to sleeping children and a clean house. His way of showing he loves and cares is through doing things for them, so I guess what he is doing there. Anyway I walked in and went straight to his room and asked "why did u treat me like ****? Why was he emotionally absent when I most needed him, why did he kept checking other women making me feel ugly, why did he marry me? And why he refused give what I want even after repeated asking. I just poured the questions on him and cried. He tried to touch me and I said "don't ever touch me till you give me all the reasons" I told him lies hurt more than cheating. He just stood there looking at me and said I can tell but you are not going to trust me anymore. I assured that I can sense well if it is true or not. He said I have offended him and his family 4 times after he went overseas. He told me about the exact incidents and I remember it was all about his siblings and mother. I do agree 2 of it was pretty offensive and I did not apologize. He says he doesn't know why he is looking at other women he says he doesn't even realise it. But swears definitely not about my looks.



So now the history is rewritten, the reason why he was doing what he did to you is 

1. his past, his childhood abuse
2. your depression after the second kid
3. your mistreatment of his family (even though you are standing up for yourself against an intrusive MIL). 

A wife needs to know her man has her back and she is not the 'inlaw.' He needs to loose everything to realise what he has. I would suggest you go to IC for yourself. 

Do you see the pattern here, he is not culpable for anything, you made him do it, whatever it is. He is laying the groundwork to show that it is all your fault. Don't fall for that MO.
He is also gas lighting and trickle truth-ing. 
Sure you can take responsibility for your half of the marriage, but that doesn't allow for infidelity and his behavior towards you.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Kukabura:

I am not a very religious person but i do know the tenants of religion are based on what works in making society, and marriage, work.


If you search on the topic of how partners in marriage must severe a lot of ties to mom and pop for their marriage work, you will find your husband lacking in this knowledge.

You can't force him to drink from the fountain of knowledge and from what you have written here, you are in a poisonous and/or condescending/selfish/unkind and disrespectful relationship.

It is not uncommon to hear "he is a wonderful father and lousy-axx husband"

I found this as a suggestion on what he needs to learn.

I am so very sad to hear what you have endured and his lack of standing up for YOU to MIL.

- sad to say I severed relations with my mother for 18 months for what you are suffering - 

A man shall cleave to his wife




“A Man … Shall Cleave unto His Wife”: Marriage and Family Advice from the Old Testament

By James M. Harper
Print Share
“A Man … Shall Cleave unto His Wife”:

The customs and life-style of people in the Old Testament often seem peculiar, and even harsh, to modern readers. But from examples found in that book of scripture, we still can learn much about proper relationships between husbands and wives and within families.

Old Testament stories illustrate well the point that everyone who comes into the gospel comes out of his or her own culture. This lesson is important in our day as the Church becomes established in nations with widely varying cultures and family traditions. With all this diversity, it is impossible to conclude that the gospel prescribes just one pattern of family life to suit all people in every culture and in every time. Certainly, gospel principles remain universal, but their application in various cultures may differ.

We must be careful, then, not to rigidly base our views of family life for our time on family models in the Old Testament. There are, however, selected stories and counsel in the Old Testament that reach beyond Old Testament cultures and illustrate universal gospel principles.
Unity in Marriage

In Gen. 2:18 the Lord says, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” In English, the words help meet carry a different connotation than the Hebrew ‘ezer kanegdo. An early meaning of the Hebrew word ‘ezer could more correctly be aid. The second word in the phrase, kanegdo, has traditionally been translated as meet for or fit for or worthy of. Combined, these meanings paint a different picture of the English translation, help meet. God created Eve as an aid or helper worthy of Adam. Help meet should not carry the connotation that Eve was an assistant of lesser status, or less competence, than Adam.

When Adam and Eve were presented to one another as companions, Adam reacted with delight, as illustrated by his statement, “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.” (Gen. 2:23.) Adam’s statement is wonderfully symbolic of the closeness he felt with Eve.

The covenant between Adam and Eve is summarized in Genesis 2:24: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” [Gen. 2:24] Referring to this scripture, President Spencer W. Kimball commented, “Do you note that? She, the woman, occupies the first place. She is preeminent, even above the parents who are so dear to all of us. Even the children must take their proper but significant place.

“I have seen some women who give their children that spot, that preeminence, in their affection and crowd out the father. That is a serious mistake.” (Ensign, Mar. 1976, p. 72.)

It is all too common in modern times for husbands and wives to place various people or activities—work, recreation, extended family, even Church service—above their marital bond. This is not necessarily a conscious decision. However, the covenant made by Adam and Eve to leave parents and be one teaches us that successful couples will be careful to place each other first. The greatest gift parents can give children is a united and loving marital bond.

Marriage is not just a social contract between man and woman; it involves God as well. God is a witness to all marriage agreements and insists that couples should be devoted and completely faithful to each other. The allegory of marital fidelity in Proverbs 5:15–21 beautifully portrays the blessing of faithfulness to one’s spouse. [Prov. 5:15–21]
Full Partnership

The story of Adam and Eve teaches us that marriage should be a full partnership. As noted earlier, the Hebrew rendering of help meet indicates that Eve was a helper worthy of Adam. After Adam was driven from the Garden of Eden, he “began to till the earth … and to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow. … And Eve … did labor with him.” (Moses 5:1; italics added.)

Elder Marion G. Romney commented of this passage: “The word with … is very significant. It means more than physical labor. It connotes a common purpose, understanding, cooperation, and love. …

“Even when circumstances justify a wife’s working away from home to support her family, she should be laboring ‘with,’ not on her own nor in conflict with her husband. …

“In Latter-day Saint families the husband and wife must be one.” (Relief Society Magazine, Feb. 1968, pp. 85–86.)

On the basis of selected Old Testament passages, some have argued that women were seen anciently as subordinate to and of less worth than men. Certainly during the years of nomadic wanderings in the Old Testament, Hebrew families were ruled by men. These families were not just a small group of parents and children living together. They were much larger kinship groups, in which a patriarch presided over extended families and employees who pitched their tents around the tent where he lived with his immediate household.

While it is true that males led these family groups, women were not of less importance, nor were their opinions and counsel ignored. Women were not ordered about and used as men pleased. Rather, they were joint heirs in the image of God, charged with tasks requiring the independence and great management ability of the “woman of valor” in Proverbs 31, who is depicted as a competent manager of goods and real estate, an expert businesswoman in a cottage industry, a competent mother and wife, and a person with a strong sense of personal worth. (See Prov. 31:10–31.) Neither were women less spiritual. The Old Testament recounts experiences of righteous “prophetesses” such as Miriam (see Ex. 15:20) and Huldah (see 2 Chr. 34:22; 2 Kgs. 22:14).

What we can conclude, then, particularly from what we know of the relationship between Adam and Eve, is that the executive council of husband and wife together is extremely important in the organization of families. Husbands and wives should counsel together in decisions related to communication and activities in the family, rearing and disciplining of children, food storage and other aspects of family welfare, finances, work and career decisions, family work responsibilities, housekeeping tasks, recreation, and all other decisions that affect their bond with each other. President Kimball said, “When we speak of marriage as a partnership, let us speak of marriage as a full partnership. We do not want our LDS women to be silent partners or limited partners in that eternal assignment! Please be a contributing and full partner.” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 106.)

To husbands he said, “Our partnerships with our eternal companions, our wives, must be full partnerships.

“Our sisters do not wish to be indulged or to be treated condescendingly; they desire to be respected and revered as our sisters and our equals.” (Ensign, Nov. 1979, p. 49.)


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

We are not religious nor from third world. 

He does love his family a lot but I don't think he puts his family above us. He is just the kind who will never tell people off. Be it family or colleagues. 

Anyway...I asked him about the secretiveness and the need for PW protecting everything. His answer was the same "did not want me to misunderstand the colleagues" I said that's what cheaters do and he wrote all his PW and ids +gave me his phone that he fixed, his new phone, his laptop etc.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I've managed to retrieve old and deleted texts from his old phone. Lots of them.

I'm reading them now...,

Swim means "drinking" btw


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He has about more than 100 messages deleted since he went overseas

During the first month some female colleagues have texted him welcoming him to their country offering to accompany him for sightseeing over the weekend. He has not replied them. After that there were some adult jokes sent by same women, he has also not replied them. His close friend has texted if he is into drinking, clubbing and girls. He has replied drinking -yes the rest no thanks. Then some times later my husband asking for a good massage place and the friend askibg sports or erotic. H asks something in the middle and the friend replies "happy ending". H replies after a long break "it's too risky". 

His friend tells him that his wife is old, fat and mean, H replies "okay". His friend says wife threw him out and so he got himself a pretty young gf with heart of gold. H replies "lucky you, but watch out" 

Friend gossips about other office affairs (like who is with who) and H seems shocked. At one point H says "The company should provide STD coverage to these people"


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Kukabura said:


> He has about more than 100 messages deleted since he went overseas
> 
> During the first month some female colleagues have texted him welcoming him to their country offering to accompany him for sightseeing over the weekend. He has not replied them. After that there were some adult jokes sent by same women, he has also not replied them. His close friend has texted if he is into drinking, clubbing and girls. He has replied drinking -yes the rest no thanks. Then some times later my husband asking for a good massage place and the friend askibg sports or erotic. H asks something in the middle and the friend replies "happy ending". H replies after a long break "it's too risky".
> 
> ...




Sounds like he is trying to maintain boundaries but knows he is alone in doing so. What is your read?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

aine said:


> The TruthHurts, in the same way you ask Kukabura to be careful of the advice of those who have been cheated on before, I would also caution her on taking advice from someone who has never experienced the gut wrenching 'knowing' that their SO is doing something to damage the marriage, the finding of emails, photos, etc all of which no married partner should have or engage in.
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy to be less cynical and if I may say so somewhat naive when you have never been in that position in the first place.




Not to worry @aine - the cynical response you are providing is echoed by at least 90% of posters here. So OP need not be too concerned about being led astray by my "Pollyanna" views when you folks have already dug H's grave. It's all good - I'm sure your views have been heard 


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Not to worry @aine - the cynical response you are providing is echoed by at least 90% of posters here. So OP need not be too concerned about being led astray by my "Pollyanna" views when you folks have already dug H's grave. It's all good - I'm sure your views have been heard
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Quit with the melodrama, no-one has dug anyone's grave. Unfortunately, too many spouses have rose coloured specs on when it comes to the person they love, we all have been there, not wanting to think the worst. 
A cold hard dose of reality is often needed, people on here are complete strangers and call the signs as they see them. I was told by the majority to dump my H and leave, I am still with him so as you may guess I made my own choices, we all do. 
It is still up to the affected party to do their due diligence and make the decisions. We are all adults here. 

Just wondering why you personally are so committed to your 'pollyanna' views in the face of the evidence? Have you been in a similar scenario and chose to bury your head in the sand perhaps?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

All good TruthHurts and aine. I welcome all views. Others can only share their perspectives based on their own experience and what they have learnt from others. Moreover it all depends on how and what I'm sharing here. 

I m not going to make big decisions till I m fully ready. But I'm not going to play family while waiting


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Btw...MIL Was a blessing during my pregnancy. She will bring my favourite healthy home cooked meals, help me with house work and accompany me wherever I want to go. We were good friends till the baby was born. I just hated her right after seeing her holding my baby for some weird reason and then it got worst soon.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

More from deleted msg

H asking some colleagues out for dinner, asking who is joining. Then other person giving names. 

H telling best friend that he saw so and so with a shorty at 10 pm walking into the hotel. Friend replies "haha, they are best friends" 

Friend asking how was the party and H replying "horrible" it's getting out of hand and the company is going to be bankrupt. H continues they asked me to stay but I left. Some good looking dirty chicks there....it's a game, the losers have to do it. 

He has sent $3000 to his best mate back home while overseas. Some deleted call history to him (they are childhood friends) 

deleted call history to his mum

Some deleted overseas calls made to other Asian countries around.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have also retrieved deleted history on his latop 

Lots and lots of porn 
Searching for paranoia, suspicion, mood swings
Searching for violent movies
Violent YouTube vids

Found an email to his brother. Brother asks how is life in xxxx(country) and he replies "life sucks".


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I can have his gadgets for a couple of days if I want to. Is there something I can do to further dig?


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Regardless of what happens with your marriage I think you should go back to work.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Kukabura said:


> I can have his gadgets for a couple of days if I want to. Is there something I can do to further dig?




Back then up I guess. There are threads here about that


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

We got no where. He is really freaked out that I will go to D. 

He is really quiet and stays home most of the time. I've been shopping and getting ready to go back to work. We do not talk except very important things pertaining to children. I don't tell him where I go and what Ido. He looks depressed. 

His mother arrived unannounced with his brother this afternoon and I did not come out of my room. They were barely there for 5 minutes and I heard him say that he has an appointment and apologised to his brother. They left quietly. I'm sure she won't be coming again. His gadgets were still with me so he seems to be sleeping more. I haven't slept well I last 3 days


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Managed to check everything that I know. Nothing more. Have returned his phone and laptop. He took the phone but the laptop is lying on the dining table. Checked his fb and he has not checked it at all. More friend request and some messages from his close friend asking how is he and asking him to call back. 

I managed to find the family of 2 of his colleagues who are currently cheating and informed them whatever I know. One is the wife of a 40 year old man and another is teenage daughter of a man in late 40s may be. He doesn't know that. I used my fb to message them. 

I just feel like puking to look at his female colleagues pictures and posts on fb. How can he work with such prostitutes and not share that with me. That is enough cheating for me. I'm sure he knows I'm up to no good. But he is not showing it. I'm thinking of messaging some of his colleagues to get some info.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Is the company a multinational company? I find it hard to believe that all these things are allowed to happen without intervention.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> Is the company a multinational company? I find it hard to believe that all these things are allowed to happen without intervention.


It is. Probably the hq is not aware and manager for this country keeping it under control. I will inform them soon once I get some info from his colleagues.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I guess I am the lone wolf out here that doesn't see the overwhelming evidence showing that your H has been cheating on you. Granted, he hasn't been in a kosher work environment, but I'm seeing more jumping to conclusions and a hefty dose of paranoia. 

I've been wrong before, but I'd suggest that you ask your H if he'd be willing to take a polygraph and see what happens. 

I think you have some issues that you need to work on too. A job would help, working through the issues and feelings about your MIL. Your feelings WRT to your baby and your MIL are kinda out there.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Tron said:


> I guess I am the lone wolf out here that doesn't see the overwhelming evidence showing that your H has been cheating on you. Granted, he hasn't been in a kosher work environment, but I'm seeing more jumping to conclusions and a hefty dose of paranoia.
> 
> I've been wrong before, but I'd suggest that you ask your H if he'd be willing to take a polygraph and see what happens.
> 
> I think you have some issues that you need to work on too. A job would help, working through the issues and feelings about your MIL. Your feelings WRT to your baby and your MIL are kinda out there.


Yes he is willing to, but I'm not sure if that will help because dont believe it's 100 reliable. What if he has never cheated but stress makes him fail the test? 

All I need is truth and some clarifications of incidents without blaming me....I don't see that. Who will not be paranoid if they come to know that their spouse has been working such an environment while you are finding it hard to connect.


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## TheHappyGuy (Aug 27, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> All I need is truth and some clarifications of incidents without blaming me....I don't see that. Who will not be paranoid if they come to know that their spouse has been working such an environment while you are finding it hard to connect.


I think you're overreacting. From what I read in your posts, your husband provided good explanations to his behaviour. Granted, he didn't help you connect or adjust. But it sounds like he did not engage in any untoward behaviour and he obviously didn't like the whole situation with you being away for a year and him having to work in such an environment. 

So now that it's all out and on the table, it's time for you to move forward as a couple. I recommend marriage counselling.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura, you are the only one who knows your husband, we are just a bunch of anonymous people who bring to bear our own experiences.
What you should not forget is:

1. the awful gut feeling you had that something wasn't quite right, that gut instinct is rarely wrong in my experience.
2. The woeful behaviour of your H which required you to up sticks and leave, even if he wasn't cheating his treatment of you was terrible which indicates there are issues in your marriage
3 his willingness to gaslight, trickle-truth, blame you, all in an effort to divert blame until he knew you meant business
4. his guilty reactions and behaviour, an honest man would have just said something or sat you down and spilled the beans, he did none of these things.


Regardless of what people say, those are self-evident truths of your situation and quite damning as to the state of your marriage, whether he is has cheated or not is only part of the problem, but you need to know the truth to move on with him or without him.
There are some here suggesting that you are blowing things out of proportion, look at the evidence, it is so easy to want to think the best of someone we love, to rugsweep, sidestep the issues, but it wont go away, deal with it now.


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## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi again. Will you please clarify...

Did HE send the message asking for the nude photo?

...that seems like the most damning piece of evidence that you have. It's HUGE! It's speaks to so very much more than 'just' one message.

Has your husband suffered from depression before? I don't mean 'the blues', I mean full-on depression. Is he generally moody? Does he have very dark episodes?

My husband has become nihilistic. He ALWAYS suffered from depression but I was too young & naive to really understand the impact that would have on our lives. I encouraged (heavily) him to take an international job & relocated. I thought that the prestige would help his mind. Different moral cultures DO NOT help someone like him, quite the opposite! People here will make light of him going to a few strip clubs when he was in the USA without me (cultural differences!) but MORALLY to HIM that was a step in a very bad direction. 

He started to see the world in a very different way. He started playing violent computer games....headphones on, smoking pot, staying up half the night, sleep deprivation, totally immersed...didn't think it effected him!!!

I too suffered from terrible post natal depression. I desperately needed his support (for once!) but with a depressive person that's like the bling leading the blind. We both withdrew from each other. 

His character changed to such an extent that I believed he was having a complete mental breakdown twice in our 27 years together. BOTH times he was wracked with guilt & shame. He became cruel & abusive....that's NOT HIM! Remember I said 27 YEARS! I'm not a member who believes that when a partner changes, betrays & abuses for a year once & then a year 12 years later they are finally revealing their TRUE self.

Please be careful of making PERMANENT life changing decisions whilst your mind is in this state. That's all I'm saying. I'm NOT saying don't eventually (once you get to the truth of this) divorce him. I just know what it's like to be depressed, in a dark place, exhausted & just ENOUGH!!! I'm overwhelmed. I just want everything to stop. I want to feel safe, happy, back to ME, back to US but I can't see the path. The anxiety is crippling. It's 'fight or flight' but I don't have any fight left in me.....

It would be a bad decision to throw away my marriage AT THE MOMENT because I'm not ME enough to make huge descisions for me. Does that make sense?

Ugh! I'm so sorry that you're going through all of this. It's a bloody nightmare! I wish I knew the secret to waking-up...


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

TheHappyGuy said:


> So now that it's all out and on the table, it's time for you to move forward as a couple. I recommend marriage counselling.


I don't know if all is out. given his history of lying this is going to be the huge problem you see? I may always wonder what I never knew. I don't think I'm ready to move forward at this point, I'm still trying to make sense of everything.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

aine said:


> Kukabura, you are the only one who knows your husband, we are just a bunch of anonymous people who bring to bear our own experiences.
> What you should not forget is:
> 
> 1. the awful gut feeling you had that something wasn't quite right, that gut instinct is rarely wrong in my experience.
> ...


Yes at this point I don't feel like I knew everything. He is only answering my questions you see, nothing more voluntary. I still love him and respect him for many of his qualities but being truthful and open is far more important to me. To err is human but to completely rug sweep and gaslight is cowardly.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

ShatteredStill said:


> Hi again. Will you please clarify...
> 
> Did HE send the message asking for the nude photo?
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. My H doesn't have any depression. He used to be a very confident, funny and happy person. The only issue was lying and not very expressive. 

I don't think I'm making any decisions right now. It's hard at this point


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He has changed his FB password. When questioned he says, he doesn't want me to ruin his colleagues by messaging them about affairs. He says it's not our place to do that and that not all wives are desperate to find out. He feels some already knew but turning a blind eye. 

I told him his colleagues ruined their lives not me. I told him I'm still not 100 convinced of his stories. If he can risk his wife's anger to protect his ex colleagues he will go to any extend to protect his own ass. 

I flipped and trashed all our wedding albums, his first gift to me, our marriage cert. I was just so angry. I left for evening and when I came back the things I trashed were gone, he has picked them back from bin outside.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He gave me the new password. Looks like we may never fix this trust issue I have right now. I want him so badly but not without him being completely transparent. He asked me what does he have to do to prove me he is being transparent and said he will do it. He said "just tell me", honestly I don't know and I told him that. I could see tears welled up in his eyes as he turned around and walked away.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

He's a fool for having changed the FB password and basically telling your that his colleagues' reputations were more important than his wife's feelings. I would arrange the polygraph. They are quite reliable from what I understand. In the US they are used in to screen candidates for government security type jobs. Everyone is nervous when they take a polygraph. At the very least, you might be able to elicit a "parking lot confession" just before he goes in for the test.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Hon you now have a communication issue messed up with pride and shame.

Don't make any permanent decisions. He knows where you stand. Now he has to grow a pair of balls and that's out of character so give him a little time.

I'd involve a mediator - go to IC with him and make clear what you expect the IC to achieve with him - complete transparency. I think he needs someone to put him on the spot and instruct him on what to do; also challenge his bs and lying. Make sure you talk about the lying and that you're done with that.

Let IC run its course a little bit. You'll know if there's progress.

All I'm saying is I get you're done unless he steps up; help him step up and see if it takes 


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have been here a LONG time, lol, and I have seen hundreds of people in your situation. And I'm really good at reading people. So here's my take. Your man is a good man at heart. He TRIED to be a good man in a bad situation. But being away from you for so long just crippled him. It's like being sent to hell where you can sell your soul and have everything you've ever wanted, and asked to never ever sin.

The human psyche can only hold up so long. I think - and this is not to dis you - that had you been there the whole time, with him, none of this would have happened; you would have traveled it together. But you weren't, he tried to face it on his own. And when he failed, he feared losing you, he feared disappointing you, he feared whatever it is he grew up fearing as a kid (remember you can't bypass your childhood mental programming).

Once he came home, he sees the importance of all this, but back then, when he was in the middle of it, and not having you to lean on, he crumbled.

Please believe me - of the hundreds of men I've seen on this and other forums, your husband is about the LEAST bad husbands I've ever seen.

Throw him a bone. Offer him therapy. Tell him he must be 100% transparent from now on, he must stay in therapy with you until you no longer need it, he must put wife and family first. I really have no doubt he will jump at his second chance.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

turnera said:


> I have been here a LONG time, lol, and I have seen hundreds of people in your situation. And I'm really good at reading people. So here's my take. Your man is a good man at heart. He TRIED to be a good man in a bad situation. But being away from you for so long just crippled him. It's like being sent to hell where you can sell your soul and have everything you've ever wanted, and asked to never ever sin.
> 
> The human psyche can only hold up so long. I think - and this is not to dis you - that had you been there the whole time, with him, none of this would have happened; you would have traveled it together. But you weren't, he tried to face it on his own. And when he failed, he feared losing you, he feared disappointing you, he feared whatever it is he grew up fearing as a kid (remember you can't bypass your childhood mental programming).
> 
> ...


Listen to Turnera. It's excellent advice.
Get him to take a polygraph for your own peace of mind. They may register as inconclusive but will almost never register a false negative if he's telling the truth, so I would not be worried about that aspect.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

ShatteredStill said:


> Hi again. Will you please clarify...
> 
> Did HE send the message asking for the nude photo?
> 
> .


Yes he did. Someone wanted to be his gf offered to send more pictures and he replied "let's see the nude pictures first"


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

turnera said:


> I have been here a LONG time, lol, and I have seen hundreds of people in your situation. And I'm really good at reading people. So here's my take. Your man is a good man at heart. He TRIED to be a good man in a bad situation. But being away from you for so long just crippled him. It's like being sent to hell where you can sell your soul and have everything you've ever wanted, and asked to never ever sin.
> 
> The human psyche can only hold up so long. I think - and this is not to dis you - that had you been there the whole time, with him, none of this would have happened; you would have traveled it together. But you weren't, he tried to face it on his own. And when he failed, he feared losing you, he feared disappointing you, he feared whatever it is he grew up fearing as a kid (remember you can't bypass your childhood mental programming).
> 
> ...


Thanks It's very helpful. I hope it works but right now the pain is so bad that I m swaying from anger to desperation.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Thanks It's very helpful. I hope it works but right now the pain is so bad that I m swaying from anger to desperation.


Maybe you should consider getting some IC for yourself to work through the pain and see what you need in order to move ahead with or without him.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm feeling much better but not fully okay. Sunday night I was crying in my room and have forgotten to close the door, H came in and hugged me, he said he is so angry with himself for hurting me. He held me tight and apologised repeatedly. He kept kissing my forehead and cheeks. I lost it and cried more and more. Then had sex. I never wanted to do this but I did. It was passionate like it used to be during our first year. It felt good just cuddling with him. When I woke up this morning it felt weird like I have been tricked. I don't feel miserable anymore but feel ashamed of myself for not being strong. 

I told him that I was very emotional and thanked him for his love. But told him that nothing changes and I still am not sure what my decision will be. He said that whatever I decide he is okay but he will never give up perusing me. He said that he is confident that he will earn my trust and love again. He seems to be happy but I feel weird to face him. Btw we did the std test and all good. 

Did I mess up? I was just honest about my feelings and I did miss him.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You didn't mess up. You just did something called "hysterical bonding." It sounds like a very positive step towards reconciliation, if that's the route you choose to go. And as long as you're entirely clear and honest about expectations, there's certainly no harm in it. 

I'm starting to agree with turnera. I think he is genuinely sorry and genuinely loves you. But his first reaction to everything is to try to hide it just to avoid having to face it. This is why he gaslighted you in Asia and why he changed his password. He's learning that that behavior is no longer acceptable. You've done a remarkable job of standing up for yourself and this has caused him to respect you even more.


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

Kukabura, I made an account just so that I could reply to your post because it spoke to me so much. I post on some other marriage focused sites and read here occasionally but it was your post that really stood out to me the most so I'd like to give you my take on your situation.

I think you situation is a little unique because there isn't exactly an OW involved. However your husband still lied and betrayed you. I don't buy his story about the nudes one bit because many people don't include their face in their nudes. I doubt he would have been able to identify this mystery girl by her tits or vag. Secondly, all he had to do was ask for a picture of her face. So he's definitely lying there but I believe you have sufficient evidence to prove that he didn't have any extramarital relationships or physical contact with any OW. I still personally think asking for nudes from a coworker falls under the umbrella of cheating but it's not an affair. A polygraph still might be something worth considering because typically a trained and experienced polygraph administer has an accuracy rate of 90+% and your husband currently has a truthfulness rate of much lower than that. You're more likely to get the truth from the polygraph than him.

But even so I don't think infidelity is the biggest issue in your marriage. I think it's your husband's lies, gaslighting, and disrespect. You may think that there is no disrespect from him but lies and gaslighting are at their very core disrespectful. He doesn't respect you enough to give you the truth. He doesn't respect you enough or think you're smart enough to properly remember what you saw, said, or did and so he thinks he can manipulate you into believing something that isn't true or cause you to doubt your very own eyes and ears about things moving forward. Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse and is serious enough that people who have experienced it for years from a parent or spouse spend years in therapy learning how to trust themselves again and build up their self esteem. I highly suggest you google it if this is the first time you are hearing about it.

Another aspect of how he treats you that will need to be addressed is how he puts others' feelings before yours. In the situation with your MIL, your feelings were justified. No one likes competing with their husband's mother. There's tons of online support groups filled with women in your exact situation hearing the exact same things about how MIL wants to take and raise their babies and jabs about how they aren't good enough as a mother because MIL did x, y, or z better. That being said, your husband's response to this issue was to blame you and punish you emotionally for reacting negatively to criticism which is not okay. While he did not need to tell his mom to f*ck off, he could have easily said, "Mother, I do not appreciate the way you speak to my wife when you tell her you want to raise our baby and that she does not do things the same way you do. Those comments are not only hurtful to her, they upset ME because I feel like you are saying my wife isn't a good mother to our baby. I would appreciate if you apologized to her before we allow you spend more time with the baby." This is called setting a boundary and I greatly encourage you to get into therapy, either individual or marriage counseling, to talk to a professional about why this is a health response to damaging criticism and why your husband's response is unhealthy and damaging to his relationship with you. Furthermore, by choosing to leave this issue unaddressed, he put his mother's feelings before yours because by not addressing this issue, the one he was hurting was you. In his mind, if he did address the issue, he would be hurting his mom. The same situation played out again with his coworkers when you revealed them to be cheating. He chose to hurt you by putting a password back on his Facebook and protect their feelings instead. See how this dynamic will continue to be a problem moving forward?

Even though your marriage has many good points, these issues are a big deal. Think of marriage like a cake. If I told you I used the best ingredients available but that the cake batter was also about 10% dog poop, would you take a bite? I didn't think so. Relationships work very similarly. Right now your marriage is 90% amazing but 10% dog poop and you're telling everyone, "No really! The raspberry frosting almost entirely masks the poop flavor!"

You may still think that maybe everyone is blowing these issues out of proportion or maybe they're not worth divorcing over and to that I would like to turn your attention to John Gottman, a world renown marriage researcher who could predict with 93% accuracy which couples would stay together or which would divorce only by having a short conversation with them. According to Mr. Gottman, there are 4 horsemen of divorce: criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. In case you don't know, stonewalling is when one partner shuts down and refuses to communicate with the other partner much like what your husband did to you when he acted very distant after the issues with your MIL. Throughout this ordeal, your husband has shown every element of these 4 horseman and he still shows them today. He criticizes you by saying it was because of your anger and disrespect that he chose to make bad decisions regarding his work place. He gets defensive when you call him out on lies, say that you don't believe him, or demand answers. He has contempt for you because he claims that your issues have been a problem for years and have lead to this marriage being in a bad place. He stonewalls you when things don't go his way or you don't do what he wants. His betrayal isn't going to end this marriage. His continued attitude problems will.

If I were you, I would make individual and marriage counseling a requirement for reconciliation. I'd also require the rule of no more lies and a passed polygraph to get a baseline of truth about the situation. I'd require my husband to stand up to his mother when she is critical and to have my back as a team instead of ganging up on me with his mom. If he failed to do any single one of these things, I would file for divorce because that is where this marriage is heading without massive changes in his behavior. No one would blame you if you said this sounded like too much work for someone who was a massive jerk to you but don't let him off the hook and make this easy for him because you will be dealing with these issues for the rest of your marriage until you have had enough.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Nekonamida, agree with everything you have said in your post. One of the fundamental pillars of a marriage is respect. And he hasn't shown it to Kukabura. They have now had the hysterical bonding, he is happy because he thinks the storm is over, he has managed to worm his way into her heart again without having dealt with any of the underlying issues.
To add, the Marriage Course identifies the problem of in-laws as a major issue in marriage. He needs to recognize how his upbringing has affected your relationship and do something about it.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

aine said:


> Nekonamida, agree with everything you have said in your post. One of the fundamental pillars of a marriage is respect. And he hasn't shown it to Kukabura. They have now had the hysterical bonding, he is happy because he thinks the storm is over, he has managed to worm his way into her heart again without having dealt with any of the underlying issues.
> To add, the Marriage Course identifies the problem of in-laws as a major issue in marriage. He needs to recognize how his upbringing has affected your relationship and do something about it.


I would like to second this.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

So.... I'm going to kind of quietly sort of say... yes, I agree, with qualifications.

The qualifications are that these are character flaws, learned behavior and not personal toward you.

In other words, I don't think this is about you at all and therefore, for him to be the partner you need, he needs to correct these character flaws.

I realize this is what that poster was saying, but I want to emphasize that he can't overcome this by treating you differently, though that's what you want. He can only overcome this through very a painful awakening and very difficult level of self awareness.

For that reason he must get counseling. And support and direction from you once he starts to make progress


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you everyone for the honest input. 

It's funny, he brought me flowers and perfumes, wrote me long Long letter of apology, cooked my favourite food, cleaned the house and turned on romantic music. Threw his usual pride and made the move to call me to sit down for a chat and asked what can he do? 

I said "I want to talk about everything that you have not told me yet"

His face changed and said there is nothing else that you don't know. I said I feel like there is more to the story and also need to know exactly why he treated me badly. He said " okay what do you want to know? I asked a few questions that I have prepared that will go back and forth, in and around same incidents in different angles and the accounts were slightly different from the previous accounts, just slightly some new info and some missing info. After an hour of talking I felt like a csi officer who got sick of the investigation. He looked disappointed that I'm going deeper and asking dirtier questions. I got angrier that he is not very forth coming to make me trust. At the end he said " he is never going to be able to make me trust again" and I said "A man climbed mountains, swam oceans and went to the moon to prove his love to his wife but the wife still left him because he was never home" ( I don't know why that came out but I felt like he is wasting his effort on things I don't need right now) 

He got up and went back into his shell. He agreed to IC and Polygraph though. 

I know I crushed his little romantic mood but I was ignored for months.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Was I mean to him? 

I'm angry again. Mostly angry because he treated me poorly although I kept expressing my feelings on how I feel. I have even explicitly mentioned what I was missing. He did very little to help. I'm not a saint to forget and forgive so fast. I'm a mess right now. I want him but I hate him. I can't imagine life without him but I can't live like a fool that he made out of me.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

A little back story of us. 

I was 18 and he was 26 when we met, he was my friend's older sisters friend. My friend and I used to tag along with her friends when they got together in groups. I became very attracted to him and expressed it. He kinda rejected me saying I'm too young for him and that he doesn't want to hurt me. I literally chased after him. To be honest what attracted me to him was the exact qualities that I hate the most now - little white lies to make others laugh, quiet, mysterious and handsome. 

I'm just thinking how weird life is


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Mean? No.

Cheaters hate to be tested. They want you to accept the first story, accept their contrition and immediately move on. To me, time is one of the biggest hurdles of reconciliation. You see it all of the time in threads. Don't make a hasty decision, the wayward is scared, they are going to trickle truth give them time. The Wayward wants instant gratification for their honesty. Let's say he told you the 100% truth, Waywards don't understand you need time to process, digest and parse the information. They don't understand the "coming clean" moment for them is you taking all of the baggage onto yourself. Not only do you deal with the self doubt of your role in this mess, I wasn't their to support him in his time of need, you have to deal with the number one logical response to this comment "I didn't cheat." This is going to lead to some ugly questions and angry outbursts. Now, you do not get to abuse him, but you do have every right to question him and sometimes get angry.


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

No, you were not mean to him. What he is doing is called "love bombing" meaning he's laying on the romance very thick to bring you back to a state of complacency where everything can go back to "normal" but normal is still pretty sucky for you in a lot of ways. You're doing everything right by requiring he go to IC and take a polygraph and your comeback about the wife divorcing because he was never home was so very clever and spot on! He's giving you things you didn't ask for to avoid giving you the things you did ask for which would actually help you to heal and move on. Continue holding him accountable for it. You have the right to feel respected in your marriage.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

nekonamida said:


> No, you were not mean to him. What he is doing is called "love bombing" meaning he's laying on the romance very thick to bring you back to a state of complacency where everything can go back to "normal" but normal is still pretty sucky for you in a lot of ways. You're doing everything right by requiring he go to IC and take a polygraph and your comeback about the wife divorcing because he was never home was so very clever and spot on! He's giving you things you didn't ask for to avoid giving you the things you did ask for which would actually help you to heal and move on. Continue holding him accountable for it. You have the right to feel respected in your marriage.


I haven't heard of 'love bombing' before but seems to be a cheaters MO. My WH did hte same thing, flowers, gifts, etc without actually answering all the questions asked, it's a mode to rug sweeping.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is common in people with PD's and cheaters.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Some changes, I tried talking to him 4 more times about his time working overseas. I kept asking questions like a detective and he kept giving a little bit more info each time. The 4th time we talked he got up and kicked the cupboard, tore away his certificates and qualifications, and told me he is never going to be able to solve my suspicions. He packed his bag and everything. He said he tried very hard to keep me happy but now he is sure he can't help me anymore. He left last night and has not called or texted, neither did I


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Surprisingly I don't feel anything. I got up this morning and did my usual routine. I'm starting work tomorrow and that's stressing me. How am I going to manage everything and kids. My mum will be staying with me from next week but she is old and I don't want to impose on her.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I have scheduled polygraph for next week not sure if he will come.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't feel like seeing lawyer at this point. But I'm okay living alone. If we decide to D I want it least destructive to children and I'm not going to fight for anything. Let's see what happens.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Well, if he's not going to give you the whole truth, what exactly will you be losing if he stays gone? 

The difference between a remorseful and unremorseful spouse is that the first bends over forwards and backwards to earn your trust. The second bends according to what they think will cause the least amount of guilt or shame... Or the least path of responsibility. 

No, you're not being mean. You're being vigilant. You'll be fine without him.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> I don't feel like seeing lawyer at this point. But I'm okay living alone. If we decide to D I want it least destructive to children and I'm not going to fight for anything. Let's see what happens.


Giving him everything doesn't help you or your children. Get your fair share.

Don't live in limbo too long, and don't be surprised if he sends you D papers because he doesn't want to live in limbo long. 

The person who files/petitions, usually has the advantage.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Kukabura said:


> Some changes, I tried talking to him 4 more times about his time working overseas. I kept asking questions like a detective and he kept giving a little bit more info each time. The 4th time we talked he got up and kicked the cupboard, tore away his certificates and qualifications, and told me he is never going to be able to solve my suspicions. He packed his bag and everything. He said he tried very hard to keep me happy but now he is sure he can't help me anymore. He left last night and has not called or texted, neither did I


Whatever he attempted, it seems the dark is where he prefers...

I had hoped he would eventually find the humility he needed to be honest with you, but it seems he would rather live his untruths in the dark than allow you to pull away the layers to the light.. and many layers is does seem.

The hurt that would surely continue would be hard to live with.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Satya said:


> Well, if he's not going to give you the whole truth, what exactly will you be losing if he stays gone?
> 
> The difference between a remorseful and unremorseful spouse is that the first bends over forwards and backwards to earn your trust. The second bends according to what they think will cause the least amount of guilt or shame... Or the least path of responsibility.
> 
> No, you're not being mean. You're being vigilant. You'll be fine without him.


THIS^^^

If he really valued you and your marriage, he would be willing to do what it takes to fix the marriage and meet your needs for complete honesty.

It is completely normal for you to be asking the same questions over and over again... your brain is trying to make sense of everything that has has happened. It is also part of the process of regaining trust, for you to know that your spouse will be patient and endure the endless questions... it's one of the ways how the cheater can demonstrate his commitment to you and the marriage.

Your husband has failed this test. He is showing you who he really is.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Some changes, I tried talking to him 4 more times about his time working overseas. I kept asking questions like a detective and he kept giving a little bit more info each time. The 4th time we talked he got up and kicked the cupboard, tore away his certificates and qualifications, and told me he is never going to be able to solve my suspicions. He packed his bag and everything. He said he tried very hard to keep me happy but now he is sure he can't help me anymore. He left last night and has not called or texted, neither did I


Sorry Kukabura that you are going through this but it appears he is more concerned with his own discomfort than your pain, a clear indication that he is not prepared to bare all to you and show he is full committed to reconciliation and making things better for you. It really tells you all you need to know. 
I hope things go well at work for you, you will get through this. Do not wait before getting a lawyer, you cannot trust him to do right by you if he is acting aggressively and trying to basically 'bully' you into giving up your pursuit of the truth. Stick to your guns, there appears to be a significant amount you do not know and he is not willing to let you know.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

He is incredibly manipulative.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

He doesn't get to throw a tantrum and walk out.It was his ****ty behaviour that has you both where you are.Go and see a lawyer as soon as you can,tomorrow if possible and have him served because otherwise he will walk over you.As farsidejunky has said he is being incredibly manipulative and is thinking you will eventually drop the subject and rug sweep.You don't have to continue with the divorce but he needs to know you are not prepared to accept any more lies.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I woke up feeling depressed and decided to postpone starting work. I don't think I'm ready both physically and mentally. Everything sucks big time right now.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> He is incredibly manipulative.


This is a sad tool for the application of selfish power and his walking out is nothing more than that, a power play with a worn out playbook that looks to hurt by digging at weaknesses.

Thankfully you recognize it for what is is... this gives you strength and believe it or not, a seed for calm @Kukabura, nurture it by removing the fear of self-doubt and seek out what you need to know legally, well-informed allows you to see your paths with more confidence and clarity.

Begin surrounding yourself with good people... you are worthy, the right people in your life recognize this.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Yeah this truly sucks. Maybe he's not mature enough to see his own childish, hurt, prideful behavior. But watch out for your kids and see a lawyer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Got a message from him. He said he is staying with his friend and he will be there for the polygraph. He has transferred a good amount of money for my expenses and is asking me to take it slow with going back to work. He knew I have always wanted to be there for my kids till the youngest is 3. Oh forgot to mention, he has found a good job that he is happy. 

I did not reply. He says he had to leave because we are dealing with the problem wrongly and that he is afraid the kids will start to sense the stress. 

He is asking when and how long can he be with the children.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Do not discuss anything until after the poly, then you will have a clearer picture as to what your path should be.

I believe, he cannot take the heat of your questions and is running away from them but using the 'stress' for the kids as an excuse. He appears to be a very weak man in many respects, a man who is still more worried about saving his own ass than saving the marriage.

I don't believe he should be advising you on your work or anything considering he got you into this stressful position in the first place, perhaps he needs to be reminded of this. 

Kukabura, please get yourself some IC to talk through your emotions. You seem fairly strong, the way you have handled this but it would be good to make yourself stronger for yourself and the kids for the future, I suspect you are in for a long road ahead, the way your H is behaving. He took the cowards way out and ran, if he only knew what he has done, it is in effect to abandon you rather than face the music. Take care of yourself.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

What to expect on the polygraph?

MIL popped in today unannounced, asked me where her son is, I said he ran away. She looked at me and went "what's happening in this house?" I said I asked him questions and he ran away. She tried scaring me that her son is the kind once he throws something away, he never looks back. I know that is true and surely a bit worried that I'm messing my life. But told her that if he chooses not to look back it's his loss. She left soon. 

I have no mood for counselling I don't even feel like talking about this to my close friends. Why do I feel this way?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Not sure if I mentioned. I have emailed my neighbour friend back in country X (where he worked) to talk to one of H colleagues who is also a local and lived 2 streets from us. My friend knows them but not that close. I have asked her to strike a casual convo to dig for info on hubby. We are hoping that he will open up as we have left the country now. 

Keeping my fingers crossed. My friend said she will pretend to pass by and ask them what happen to me? Hope they don't know that I'm close to her.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Kukabura said:


> She tried scaring me that her son is the kind once he throws something away, he never looks back. I know that is true and surely a bit worried that I'm messing my life. But told her that if he chooses not to look back it's his loss. She left soon.


Good for you! Stand your ground and don't let her make excuses for his bad behavior. 

As others said, do not take any advice unless it's from your therapist or your lawyer. Your husband fired himself from that job ages ago.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Called my neighbour friend, she had spoken to my H colleagues wife. My friend had asked if she knew what happened to us and why we moved. The wife has said, not sure but looks like some family emergency. My friend tried asking if it's to do with female colleagues at work and lady had replied that she doesn't think so and that she heard my H is a family guy who doesn't involve in such matters. She didn't dig anymore. 

This colleague is a family man with 4 kids. He was the one who recommended one of our maids we had.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> What to expect on the polygraph?
> 
> MIL popped in today unannounced, asked me where her son is, I said he ran away. She looked at me and went "what's happening in this house?" I said I asked him questions and he ran away. She tried scaring me that her son is the kind once he throws something away, he never looks back. I know that is true and surely a bit worried that I'm messing my life. But told her that if he chooses not to look back it's his loss. She left soon.
> 
> I have no mood for counselling I don't even feel like talking about this to my close friends. Why do I feel this way?


Well done.

Where do you think he learned how to be manipulative?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Called my neighbour friend, she had spoken to my H colleagues wife. My friend had asked if she knew what happened to us and why we moved. The wife has said, not sure but looks like some family emergency. My friend tried asking if it's to do with female colleagues at work and lady had replied that she doesn't think so and that she heard my H is a family guy who doesn't involve in such matters. She didn't dig anymore.
> 
> This colleague is a family man with 4 kids. He was the one who recommended one of our maids we had.


In a way that sounds promising, but I wouldn't be bending over backwards to welcome him home, he still has to account for his appalling treatment of you and make amends.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Poly done. He failed 2 questions

Have you touched another woman sexually after marriage? And has any woman other than wife touched you sexually after marriage? 

He dropped me after the test and I told him I'm not surprised. He paused for a while and said "I'll tell you everything you want". I kept quiet uninterested. MIL was baby sitting and he asked if we could talk, we parked the car near a park and talked inside. He told me that there are 2 times a female co worker had hugged him from behind and pressed her body on him. 1 time he had touched a naked breast of a woman at the nude party after the woman took his hand and brought it to her breast. He did not remove it immediately, it took less than a minute. 1 time gotten a happy ending massage.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He swears there is nothing more he is hiding. He looked confident and said, ask me what else you want to know. I told him tell me why you treated me badly and he says he doesn't know but was angry with me for various reasons and that he feels ashamed of himself. He said "tell me how I can pay back for that" I'll do whatever you want to make us happy again. I just cried and cried. Told him to drop me and that I want to be alone. He dropped and said "I'm sorry" before driving off.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura, I am so sorry, but you suspected this all along.

You need time to heal and think about what you want to do, divorce or reconcile. I know you do not want to talk about this to your friends, but you shouldn't bear this alone. Please get an IC to help you discuss what you are going through.

Frankly a female co worker doesn't simply hug a man from behind unless they are in a specific place away from the office and there was more to the relationship
He touched the nude girl, of course he did and maybe even did more.

You should start doing the 180 on him, emotionally detach for yourself.
Tell your family and friends what is happening (this is not your shame nor burden)
Go see a lawyer, it will make you feel more in control of the situation.
Right now, he may or may not be giving your full disclosure. Was one of the questions, did you have intercourse?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't know if this poly has helped me in any way at this point. But trust is broken permanently. I m still trying to deal with lies. I can forgive the sexual touches. But I'm not 100 % convinced because I do not believe in poly fully yet. So I feel like I have not progressed much. I'm also appalled at how long a loving H can I'll treat a wife? Did he really love me? 

I feel angry, I feel like doing all these to him back.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> He swears there is nothing more he is hiding. He looked confident and said, ask me what else you want to know. I told him tell me why you treated me badly and he says he doesn't know but was angry with me for various reasons and that he feels ashamed of himself. He said "tell me how I can pay back for that" I'll do whatever you want to make us happy again. I just cried and cried. Told him to drop me and that I want to be alone. He dropped and said "I'm sorry" before driving off.



Remember, before this also he swore he had done nothing wrong and it was you being crazy, classic trickle truthing.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

May I know what path should I take for reconciliation and D? It would be easy if someone can list down in point form for both R and D. 

Honestly I don't know what I want. Sometimes I feel like I can't live without him and other times I feel like divorcing.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thanks aine for your input. All thoughts and suggestions are welcome. 

I have told my mum. She is like telling me to not throw away everything. She and my brother wants me to work it out. They like H very much. 

Told Mil and she looked sad. She said she never liked the idea of him travelling overseas for work without family from day one. She wants me to forgive him and take him back. I told her right now I don't think it's possible. She told me to cal her if I need baby sitting again.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

If what he recently confessed to, is the extent of his transgressions, it isn't as bad as full blown affairs and he hasn't gotten emotionally involved in other women. In my experience, for a lot of women, it is the emotional involvement that kills the marriage. Go in for another poly and make sure that his latest confession is the extent of it. You have to have complete honesty so that you have a firm foundation to build from. Continued dishonesty or "trickle-trunthing" will railroad any recovery. I don't think he quite understands that. He is still trying to minimize what he did. 

If you are amenable to R, be prepared for a long rebuilding process. R takes a lot of effort and a lot of time. When the trust is broken in this way, it simply takes a long long time to rebuild, and you will have to be satisfied with something less than 100% trust. It won't ever be like it was before.

From the sound of it, he is all-in on R. I don't think a 180 detachment would be appropriate unless he shows that he isn't prepared to do what is needed. And as I mentioned, that starts with complete 100% honesty about what has happened. I'll post what I thought was a pretty comprehensive but lengthy summation of what he needs to do to help rebuild the marriage. You might print it out for him and see what he does with it.

Next, neither one of you seem to be communicating particularly effectively at the moment. He is constantly minimizing, getting defensive and trying to weasel out of difficult and emotionally charged discussions...and you are extremely hurt and lashing out. I'd start with some MC and set aside some limited times (in counseling or at home) to have these emotionally charged discussions. Avoid them at other times. 

I will get to that post momentarily.

There are also a few books you guys can read together, like How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda J. MacDonald.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Here you go K:



What a WS should know * By AbeNormal*

I have thought about posting this for some time now. It is not original to me, and chances are that many here have already seen this. It is from another forum (that can be found by searching on the title of this thread). If you go to that forum/thread, the person posting this says that they do not know its origin - but deep within the tread the original author/poster who put this together comes forth and says that they have no problem with it being distributed. I presume that to be true.

This is for the wayward spouse (particularly in the early stages of trying to understand) - and perhaps would be something useful for any betrayed spouse to share with their wayward spouse...*

The only reason i am posting this here is in hopes that it might help others the way it did my wife and I.

*****

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.*

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand. YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.*

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?*

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.*

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.*

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.*

Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”*
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.*

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.*

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect*
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most*
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.*

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care*
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They*
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


Link*Things that every wayward spouse needs to know - LoveShack.org Community Forums
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/rom...365269-things-every-wayward-spouse-needs-know


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Unfortunately, you cannot reconcile and divorce while on the same path. In my experience, it cannot be done.

So if you are going to divorce, then you need to continue with the separation and detach. The 180 will get you there.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Kukabura said:


> I'm also appalled at how long a loving H can I'll treat a wife? Did he really love me?
> 
> I feel angry, I feel like doing all these to him back.


Kukabura, Don't make any quick decision to allow your husband to come back. He didn't just slip up one night and sleep with a woman. He was pretty nasty to you while you traveled to visit him and his nastiness continued for some time. Now he seems to be gas lighting you. If you let him back too soon and too easily, you'll regret your decision for many years.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Tron said:


> Here you go K:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not going to quote the whole thing, because it's freaking long, but @Tron that's a really good post. I think you should post it (as a new thread) in the CWI section and ask the mods to make it a sticky, if someone hasn't already done it. And maybe actually link back to the original to give credit.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

FeministInPink said:


> Not going to quote the whole thing, because it's freaking long, but @Tron that's a really good post. I think you should post it (as a new thread) in the CWI section and ask the mods to make it a sticky, if someone hasn't already done it. And maybe actually link back to the original to give credit.


I didn't originally write it and it has been quoted a time or two by a couple of other posters, namely Chaparral and JohnA, but I read it back in 2014 when I first arrived and I wish I had something like that when I was reconciling with my W. 

And when I think back on it, I did things right for the most part. I must have...cause we are still together. 

As far as a sticky, I'm not sure how to do that. You trained me on embedding images...so I suppose I am in need of another lesson. :wink2:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@kumabura give yourself some time and space. No need for a quick decision.

Let him know that since he lied and hid things, he'll have to write down everything he did and in another poly he'll be asked if he has disclosed it all. If he fails, he fails any hope of reconciliation.

If you decide to r he'll have to accept that you know know he is capable of both infidelity and of lying to you, and it will be a long road to somehow earn your trust again one day. It's not up to you to decide when that is of what he can do to correct the problems he created. Because it's hard, most WS will not bother to make the effort. They have already demonstrated that they will take an easy path of lying rather that telling the truth and accepting consequences.

So tell him to carefully consider what he wants to do too because he hasn't given you the indication that he is up to the task.

He must understand this will be long and hard and there is no guarantee you will ever get to the point of trust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Tron said:


> I didn't originally write it and it has been quoted a time or two by a couple of other posters, namely Chaparral and JohnA, but I read it back in 2014 when I first arrived and I wish I had something like that when I was reconciling with my W.
> 
> And when I think back on it, I did things right for the most part. I must have...cause we are still together.
> 
> As far as a sticky, I'm not sure how to do that. You trained me on embedding images...so I suppose I am in need of another lesson. :wink2:


I know you didn't write it, but it would be helpful to enough people that posting it as a sticky thread would be useful to a lot of people.

Regular users can't make a thread a sticky. You have to ask a Mod to make it a sticky, and they have to AGREE that it is worthy of being made a sticky. I think it would be, but I'm not a Mod.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

The poly was completely accurate. It caught his lies and he made a "confession" afterwards. But it still could be a minimized version of what happened, and since he's now lied to you multiple times, you have no way of trusting him. He's further damaging his chances at reconciliation. He's not getting the fact that he needs to come clean once and for all, with everything. I agree with Tron that you should schedule another poly. Make the questions more explicit this time. Maybe he'll finally understand this time, BEFORE the poly, that it's time to come clean with everything. Another post-poly half-confession is worthless and further weakens his case for reconciliation.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I concur with everyone that R is a long hard road and it will never be the same again, you will have good times and times when you trigger and times when it can be bad. You will never trust him 100% again, you will always be partially guarded. YOu will see him for the flawed human being that he is. Having said that, time can heal the hurts and you can have a good life together eventually.

Divorce comes with its hurts and wounds too, it will not be an easy road either on you or the kids.

I would suggest you don't make any decisions now but do get some IC for yourself, you have to work on yourself too. You need to become stronger so that you can look more objectively at your situation and make decisions from a place of strength not emotional weakness.

Get your job back, it will help you be independent, mix with others. Rely on your friends and family. Do things for yourself, such as joining a club, gym, etc. As for your WH do not rush into any discussions, etc with him. For now emotionally detach, make space for yourself, give yourself time to think. Give yourself time to let the emotions settle. You are wounded and feel betrayed by your SO, it is like being hit by a bus. The man you thought you knew is no longer there, take time to absorb this. The more time and space you take for yourself, the better position you will be in to make the decision to R or D.

It is impossible to give a checklist for either R or D , each person and scenario is different.

I am not sure that your WH is capable of stepping up and being the man you want him to be. Some men are never capable of growing to that level, my H is one of them. I have accepted that fact and no longer look to him for my happiness, he is necessary in my life but not essential (if that makes sense).

However, the good people of TAM can help you sort through your thoughts and emotions.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you everyone! Sorry I'm unable to answer each of you individually but I'm reading everything and taking what suits me.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

He sent me a long email on the timeline of what happened and why. He says the women there are desperate to sleep with the expat guys and will never stop hitting on them every chance they get. He says he had made it clear from the beginning that he has a family and is not interested in affairs and sex. But some of the female colleagues never stopped trying. 

He says the hugging was done by 2 different women while he was in their office. They had stopped once they managed to trap another expat. He acknowledges that he could have been firmer with them and have told them off. He says the happy ending was an extra service the lady asked after the massage and he just went with it. He says he felt disgusted after that and couldn't face me. 

He ends by saying that's all of it and there is nothing more. If I still decide to D he will sign wherever I want to but will always be waiting for me.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You'll never know if he's telling the whole truth. He blameshifts a bunch. It's never just his fault, it's always someone else's fault. Women just threw themselves at him he couldn't say no, why refuse a happy ending when it's offered (oh, BTW, it disgusted him... Obviously not enough to refuse it in the first place)?

He's got an answer to everything.
Don't believe for a moment he'll wait for you even if you D him. Like he "waited" for you before when you were married. 

Sorry hun, please don't make any hasty decisions while you're hurt and emotional or you'll be kicking yourself later. You don't owe him answers until you are good and ready to give them. 

It's your choice but I truly hope you'll let him go, heal, and find a future with a man who adores you and is happy with just you.

Your H is not the stuff of marriage. End of.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I do understand the consequences of R. But throwing away a 10 years of marriage and H who I still love is hard. Bringing another man in my children's life at their tenter age is out of my confort zone. Even if I eventually find a great guy one day, will he be great with my children? No one is perfect, what imperfection will that person bring into our relationship? Instead of finding and starting over from scratch with some one else why can't I start new with my H? I don't know if I can bear to see H with someone else if we move on? 

These are all questions running through my mind. I don't feel like being with him at this point but I may be ready to work this out at some point. I feel like he needs consequences. How can I make him face the consequences. 

Is there anyone here who has successfully R? Anyone thinks I can R? Please do share your views. 

These are all


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

@Kukabura, there are many posters here that successfully reconciled. I think you will find the common feedback is that it is hard, hard work and the marriage has to have a complete reset and start over. Your H has to be completely remorseful, and you would need to stay open minded about the possibility or R failing, and always have a backup plan at the ready. 

I'm sure others with better experience can advise further. 

I'd just offer, that when you talk about not wanting to "throw away" 10+ years of marriage, think about what your H had decided to throw away without a second thought toward you or the marriage. He didn't do this just one time, but may times.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> He sent me a long email on the timeline of what happened and why. He says the women there are desperate to sleep with the expat guys and will never stop hitting on them every chance they get. He says he had made it clear from the beginning that he has a family and is not interested in affairs and sex. But some of the female colleagues never stopped trying.
> 
> He says the hugging was done by 2 different women while he was in their office. They had stopped once they managed to trap another expat. He acknowledges that he could have been firmer with them and have told them off. He says the happy ending was an extra service the lady asked after the massage and he just went with it. He says he felt disgusted after that and couldn't face me.
> 
> He ends by saying that's all of it and there is nothing more. If I still decide to D he will sign wherever I want to but will always be waiting for me.


So he was the victim in all of this?

Do you really buy that?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Dday 12 years ago and so far, successfully reconciled. 

Your question about consequences...if he follows the suggestions above, he will feel the consequences every day in lack of trust, dealing with triggers, etc. It isn't easy and it takes a lot of patience and empathy. 

Based upon his responses I wouldn't write him off, but he just isn't quite ready yet.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I feel like I really need to know everything before I can make my decision. 

I can all his ex colleagues who worked with him the local females and the expat males my hubby mentioned. I can't believe I even saw some expats (who are married with kids) have posted their intimacy with their AP on their FB. 

Will messaging someone from the list help in anyway. Any tricks I can play? I feel like I'm going crazy now


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm thinking like bashing one of his expat mates and telling him how disgusting of him to cheat on his wife and children and say that I'm proud of my H. Will this make him reveal my H secrets if any? 

I'm really over the edge after seeing some of their profiles. So shameless. H used to tell me the girls body looks ok but they are stinky pig faced *****es. And his mates AP looks just like an ugly pig. 

What's wrong with me? I have fixed IC need to wait 2 weeks.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

They probably won't care if you shame them and they'll put you down as a crazy, angry woman most likely. 

Shameless people are their own unique, heartless brand.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You are certainly not crazy for wanting to know everything. That's how most other betrayed spouses feel. But I don't think you'll be able to get anything out of his friends. Another polygraph might give you more closure. If he balks at it, then it's time for divorce. In fact, if he balks at anything you ask for, it's time for divorce, now that he's revealed himself to be a three-time liar (I'm starting to lose count). 

A lot of men don't care about a woman's face. All they see is a nice body on a woman who is very willing and sexual in a way that their wife might not be. But they don't see these women as anything but throwaway sex toys. And the women like this in SE Asia are often working multiple men at the same time, asking for gifts of money, professing their "love", lying about their own faithfulness, etc. 

Once you know everything--and I think you are approaching that point--you can begin to heal. But this will be a long process. If his transgressions stayed within limits that you can come to terms with, and if he shows sufficient remorse, I think you will get past this in a couple years. You can have a healthy marriage again. It's been done before. But you will never fully trust him again, and he should be made to understand this up front.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Once you know everything--and I think you are approaching that point--you can begin to heal. But this will be a long process. If his transgressions stayed within limits that you can come to terms with, and if he shows sufficient remorse, I think you will get past this in a couple years. You can have a healthy marriage again. It's been done before. But you will never fully trust him again, and he should be made to understand this up front.


:iagree:


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

How are you Kukabura?


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Have not been in a mood to post last few days sorry. 

He is back in the house. He missed the kids and I was so tired trying to take care of them alone. I was also unwell over the weekend. He called when I was sick, he came home with dinner and saw the house in a mess, he stayed and cleaned up the house and took care of kids. Honestly speaking, I was glad he did. We did not talk I just stayed in my room most of the time and he did not bother me except to ask about kids. Kids are happy to have dad back.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I did not message his colleagues. He emailed me a few points like. He is not afraid of me enquiring about his activities or character with anyone from his ex co. He says he would have never allowed me to open the fb account if he had been cheating. He did not think a happy ending massage with an unknown women and being forced to touch a random breast was cheating. He just thought I will be upset to know. But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating. But says he doesn't like me interrogating him all the time. He is asking him to give a chance to prove his love and commitment. He has not apologised much on his treatment of me during those months in that country but says he felt like I hated moving there and often complained, besides he felt guilty for bringing us to a third world country especially the younger one. So he says he acted weird and didn't realise how much he has hurt me. 

I know I have said many times how much I hated it and why he didn't stop me from coming here. I know I have blamed him for a few things in relation to my moving. I'm not an angel but he chose to shut down and not solve the problem.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Anyway, our life is messy right now and I have no plans


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> I did not message his colleagues. He emailed me a few points like. He is not afraid of me enquiring about his activities or character with anyone from his ex co. He says he would have never allowed me to open the fb account if he had been cheating. He did not think a happy ending massage with an unknown women and being forced to touch a random breast was cheating. He just thought I will be upset to know. But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating. But says he doesn't like me interrogating him all the time. He is asking him to give a chance to prove his love and commitment. He has not apologised much on his treatment of me during those months in that country but says he felt like I hated moving there and often complained, besides he felt guilty for bringing us to a third world country especially the younger one. So he says he acted weird and didn't realise how much he has hurt me.
> 
> I know I have said many times how much I hated it and why he didn't stop me from coming here. I know I have blamed him for a few things in relation to my moving. I'm not an angel but he chose to shut down and not solve the problem.


If he doesn't want to be interrogated, he should have been truthful.

Don't you see he is STILL blaming you?


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## smi11ie (Apr 21, 2016)

polygraph


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## smi11ie (Apr 21, 2016)

kukabura;17376898 i managed to find the family of 2 of his colleagues who are currently cheating and informed them whatever i know. One is the wife of a 40 year old man and another is teenage daughter of a man in late 40s may be. He doesn't know that. I used my fb to message them.[/quote said:


> bravo0


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## Danny4133 (Jul 24, 2016)

Kukabura 

If your life was a weather bulletin, at this point you'd be looking at a forecast of storms passing but Hurricane on the horizon. 
By that I mean the direction (or lack of) here we have a perfect atmospheric condition for picking up a big brush and a sweeping troubles under the biggest rug available.

Your husband appears to be an expert in deflection, minimisation, defensiveness and total lack or self introspection. He'd make a good spokesman for the white house at this current time.
You show humility in your posts for things you did wrong, that appears to me to be a side effect based solely on his to his ability to deflect and blame shift. Look at what you're saying

- Quote 
"He just thought I will be upset to know"
"He doesn't like me interrogating him all the time"
"he felt like I hated moving there and often complained, 
"he felt guilty for bringing us to a third world country especially the younger one. So he says he acted weird and didn't realise how much he has hurt me"


He's a clever boy and knows exactly what he's doing. 
Trust me I was married to one of these for longer than I care to remember. She used to do this to me with the "Because I know you" and have a whole conversation with herself about what I would and wouldn't approve of. 
I didn't do this because I know you wouldn't like it, I did this because I know you like this. It's a clever form of asserting control making the perp appear whiter than white and the victim clueless to having been played.
It got to a point when I gave up trying to correct her, but then I'm fairly certain now things are over she's a sociopath, an expect manipulator at the very least...anyhow I digress.....

These are unpalatable conditions for a successful reconciliation, it's ideal for building resentment, further control, lack of proper communication and openness.

He needs to show humility, a lot more humility, he needs to accept you will be interrogating him, and NO he's not supposed to like it.
Basically he needs to "man up" and face the storm that HE created. He needs to look at things from your point of view, how you feel, how you've been treated, not deflect with "well I did this because it was in your best interests"

If you accept this, rug sweep and let him deflect to you as he is doing the future doesn't look good, yes you may need to change a little, but the big change needs to be him and his whole attitude, his full and total lack of contrition, empathy, humility. It's not acceptable and should be red line stuff when deciding if a future can be established. 

From here on in I'd be seeking MC to really work through these issues, a relationship with such an imbalance of power never has a rosy future.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I think you need to be direct. I honestly think he doesn't know how to be empathetic or if he does, his defensiveness is inhibiting him.

By being direct I mean actually say "of course you don't like being interrogated. Who would? But you have broken trust in the marriage and you can't shut me down by complaining about doing YOUR job to regain my trust. Pushing me away says 'I take no responsibility for my actions and you have to just shut up about my failures.'"

I think you need to paint that picture for him several times in order for him to get it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm not sure you will ever get the whole truth...he simply may not see the difference in his thinking based on his response, reasoning, and justification.

If so, there may be a limit to what can be known... can you live with that moving forward with new boundaries in place?

If so, you know what broke down yesterday... today is new, frame your mind new with the lessons learned and present them clearly of what will be tolerated henceforth.

And hold him to them.

Then the next time he presents something that skirts the responsibility look at him with calm and mindfulness and let him know that such simply doesn't sound much like teaching the children accountability to you, and move on to other things that need attending.

Let him digest being called out at the cost of what your children are learning.

I doubt his mother was ever presented such an opportunity for such a lesson... let it begin with you.

May you have the perseverance to break the chain, or at least modify it enough to make the difference.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kukabura said:


> He did not think a happy ending massage with an unknown women and being forced to touch a random breast was cheating. He just thought I will be upset to know. But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating.


He is lying to you. 



Kukabura said:


> But says he doesn't like me interrogating him all the time.


 THIS IS NOT REMORSE. This is not regret. This is him being PISSED OFF that he's in the hot seat.

Do NOT have sex with him!



Kukabura said:


> He is asking him to give a chance to prove his love and commitment. He has not apologised much on his treatment of me during those months in that country but says he felt like I hated moving there and often complained, besides he felt guilty for bringing us to a third world country especially the younger one. So he says he acted weird and didn't realise how much he has hurt me.


Again, NOT REMORSE.

Here are a few things I advice betrayed spouses to demand to even consider giving the cheater a second chance; and if he's not willing to do these things, it tells you all you need to know:

He finds a therapist for him to go to and attend it until you don't need it. Without griping.
He finds a marriage therapist and attends as long as you need.
He writes down a complete timeline of EVERYthing he has done.
He finds a good polygraph examiner and schedules an appointment. And GOES. And PASSES.
He looks into a postnup agreement stating that if he gets caught cheating again, he walks away from the marriage with no financial gain.

What he does when you present these choices to him will tell you all you need to know.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> I did not message his colleagues. He emailed me a few points like. He is not afraid of me enquiring about his activities or character with anyone from his ex co. He says he would have never allowed me to open the fb account if he had been cheating. He did not think a happy ending massage with an unknown women and being forced to touch a random breast was cheating. He just thought I will be upset to know. But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating. But says he doesn't like me interrogating him all the time. He is asking him to give a chance to prove his love and commitment. He has not apologised much on his treatment of me during those months in that country but says he felt like I hated moving there and often complained, besides he felt guilty for bringing us to a third world country especially the younger one. So he says he acted weird and didn't realise how much he has hurt me.
> 
> I know I have said many times how much I hated it and why he didn't stop me from coming here. I know I have blamed him for a few things in relation to my moving. I'm not an angel but he chose to shut down and not solve the problem.


1. of course he is not afraid, you have only his word for it, no way of verifying
2. He could have still been cheating, he wouldn't have let all the world see on his FB so that is neither here nor there, and a dumb argument
3. touching other women and having a happy ending is cheating, he is allowing another woman to have access to him in a way that should only be for his wife - ask him how he would feel if you had a male masseuse give you an orgasm or feel up his privates? Would it be ok with him? I guess not.
4. Your WH feels so entitled, lacks humility and regrets but is not remorseful at all
5. Doesn't like you interrogating him all the time, of course he doesn't but that is too bad, bohoo, he broked it so not face the consequences
6. A good place to show his love and commitment would be to own his **** and beg for your forgiveness particularly on the way he treated you when you went to the foreign country, tell him he is still not off the hook
7. He is the type of man ( i know I am married to one) who will try and wear you down about his guilt, his stupidity, his mistake all the while minimizing the effect if had on you, don't let him away with that
8 Go ahead with your IC, I would suggest a lawyer because you WH hasn't come to Jesus yet, he is still posturing big time, he needs a big dose of reality, hit him with it.

In the mean time take care of your health, do things for you. I would suggest you go back to work, it will do wonders for your sense of independence, you own self esteem, etc as it is you are too alone and dependent on him.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

turnera said:


> He looks into a postnup agreement stating that if he gets caught cheating again, he walks away from the marriage with no financial gain.


This is a cool tool... separates the wheat from the chaff.

I like this "put your money where your heart/values/actions" are.

Yes... many likes.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

aine said:


> 1. of course he is not afraid, you have only his word for it, no way of verifying
> 2. He could have still been cheating, he wouldn't have let all the world see on his FB so that is neither here nor there, and a dumb argument
> 3. touching other women and having a happy ending is cheating, he is allowing another woman to have access to him in a way that should only be for his wife - ask him how he would feel if you had a male masseuse give you an orgasm or feel up his privates? Would it be ok with him? I guess not.
> 4. Your WH feels so entitled, lacks humility and regrets but is not remorseful at all
> ...


I really wonder what he is thinking... "I can do this longer than you"?

He may be correct in that, but the outcome may disappoint him.

Hang in there @Kukabura, clarity will come.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

turnera said:


> Kukabura said:
> 
> 
> > He did not think a happy ending massage with an unknown women and being forced to touch a random breast was cheating. He just thought I will be upset to know. But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating.
> ...


Thank you! 
I emailed him the conditions including your postnup agreement, he immediately replied with "yes, yes, yes" to everything.


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm not talking to him anything about us,everything via email. If he is with kids I m inside and vice versa. 

I see myself leaning towards reconciliation but just hate him right now. After re reading all your responses I'm pretty sure he is rug sweeping and I'm starting to settle for it. I can't bring myself to ruin the stability my kids were born into. Although I hate him I secretly wish for us to be together. He is the only man in my life and I don't want anyone else. My mum used change her boy friends when I was young and I always wished for my parents to get back together. 

Being a children service professional I have seen too many children suffer in broken families and I don't want that for my children. I also want him but feel very resentful. I have not told him these but looks like I'm in for life long ****

I will try everything suggested.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Men are likely to come back to marriage / twice as much as women cheaters.

Have him buy this book (and prove he has it) : https://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Sp...d=1488886341&sr=8-4&keywords=not+just+friends
It takes a few hours to read... its a start and its for the cheater.

This book is for both of you: https://www.amazon.com/Not-Just-Fri...rd_wg=AlWOo&psc=1&refRID=YFX9GG904BAQ3YXQW8SP


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Oh yeah... make no promises. At least 3 or 6 months of therapy together to see where you both are at.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Tron said:


> *Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.*
> 
> The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand. YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.
> 
> ...


Kukaburra, I think you need to have your H read this ASAP. I really don't think he fully understands the devastation that he brought to you. His anger over your continued questions point to that -- he doesn't realize how deeply this affected you and why you continue to go over/dig into it. He needs to read this to understand what he needs to do FOR YOU and stop focusing on himself. Another poly may not be a bad thing -- now you can have more pin-point questions to make sure he is done with the trickle-truth and has in fact told you everything.

VERY sorry for the pain you are going through.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Kukabura said:


> ... But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating. But says he doesn't like me interrogating him all the time. He is asking him to give a chance to prove his love and commitment.


Basically, TOUGH that he doesn't like you asking questions all the time. He needs to understand that is what YOU need. He should be willing to answer the same question day after day in order to make sure YOU are satified. HE needs to step up to the task for R -- he needs to do the heavy lifting and he needs to understand that. I also think IC for him would not be a bad idea.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Kukabura said:


> I did not message his colleagues. He emailed me a few points like. He is not afraid of me enquiring about his activities or character with anyone from his ex co. He says he would have never allowed me to open the fb account if he had been cheating. He did not think a happy ending massage with an unknown women and being forced to touch a random breast was cheating. He just thought I will be upset to know. But says now he regrets and knows it's cheating. But says he doesn't like me interrogating him all the time. He is asking him to give a chance to prove his love and commitment. He has not apologised much on his treatment of me during those months in that country but says he felt like I hated moving there and often complained, besides he felt guilty for bringing us to a third world country especially the younger one. So he says he acted weird and didn't realise how much he has hurt me.
> 
> I know I have said many times how much I hated it and why he didn't stop me from coming here. I know I have blamed him for a few things in relation to my moving. I'm not an angel but he chose to shut down and not solve the problem.


He's gaslighting you. I'd follow the protocol in Surviving an Affair. Exposure, disclosure, and a plan in place to get your marriage back on track (full transparency by your husband on his whereabouts, devices, etc., no OS friends, no nights apart, at least 15 hours a week quality time just the two of you). He needs to understand very clearly that what he did was betray you and break marital vows of faithfulness. It will take on average 2 years to recover from an affair- which is what he had. I'd make it very clear to him that you are treating this as an Affair. He doesn't seem to understand this. 

If you don't do this, you are sending him a message about what you will tolerate in the marriage.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Any updates, @Kukabura? It's been almost a week since you last posted.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

Nothing much has changed, he is back at home in his own room. I have started work and he may start soon. We don't talk to each other, I'm completely ignoring him. He cooks and cleans, takes care of children till I come, goes out after that or locks himself in his room. 
Mil came this evening and I left them with kids and stayed in my room. 
No one is talking about the dinosaur in the room. I'm just not interested. I feel angry from time to time but try and distract myself. Looks like he thinks time will help him rug sweep easily. I don't want a D because of many reasons but I also won't put up with his crap so basically I'm still thinking of a plan that will work. 

I went for the I C and didn't told the therapist all in a short summary without much emotions. The therapist feels he needs therapy and want to see us both next week


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## Kukabura (Jan 27, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> Tron said:
> 
> 
> > *Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.*
> ...


I have forgotten to sent it to him, tks for the reminder but I doubt he will read it.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura said:


> Nothing much has changed, he is back at home in his own room. I have started work and he may start soon. We don't talk to each other, I'm completely ignoring him. He cooks and cleans, takes care of children till I come, goes out after that or locks himself in his room.
> Mil came this evening and I left them with kids and stayed in my room.
> No one is talking about the dinosaur in the room. I'm just not interested. I feel angry from time to time but try and distract myself. Looks like he thinks time will help him rug sweep easily. I don't want a D because of many reasons but I also won't put up with his crap so basically I'm still thinking of a plan that will work.
> 
> I went for the I C and didn't told the therapist all in a short summary without much emotions. The therapist feels he needs therapy and want to see us both next week


Glad you are at work, it will help you to meet others and keep your mind of things.

When is he starting work?
It looks like he is going to try and wait you out, he doesn't seem to be man enough to sit you down and open up to you and genuinely try to make amends. Maybe he doesn't know how.
It might be good to consider MC after your IC. After your IC you will be more stable and able to identify the issues in your marriage that led to this and the areas you want to cover.

MC will give you a safe environment to express your emotions about everything that has happened since the move to and from overseas. Depending on his responses etc, you can then decide better if you will be in the marriage or just live as room mates.

I hope that the pain you feel will lessen with time.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kukabura, wondering how you have been, haven't heard from you in a while. How are you?


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