# NYT article on house chore inequality



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Even though women work often times just as much as men, and make just as much as men... we still see house chore inequality. I see this with most of my friends.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In my house, it probably goes the other way, but not by much.

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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

I cook meals for my wife and kids. Always have
even when they were young. I pick up after myself
and the kids were young did that also. I sort and do 
laundry and everything that would or could be described 
as a household chore. I taught my sons how to do things 
for themselves also. I see and love my wife as my lifelong 
partner not my maid. 

She is one half of the whole, I am the other. 
Together one complete working and caring for 
each other. Even outside jobs.

Maybe I am an exception but I don't think anyone
should have to be dependent on someone to survive.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I mean let’s be honest. Every adult should be picking up after themselves. If your an adult and your not putting your clothes in a hamper, and cleaning up your trash, and rinsing your dishes and putting them in the dishwasher... that’s a problem. Picking up after yourself is not a chore.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I did my chore this morning. Just want to get that out there before the bashing begins. 
Chore is a disputed word and @Girl_power has addressed this in her latest post. Quote "Picking up after yourself is not a chore."
But like many things it is much easier to say what something is not than to define what something is.

The dictionary says "a routine task, especially a household one." picking up after yourself is certainly a household task, but when it becomes "routine" then we want to define it as "Not a chore".
The dictionary's second definition may work better for us. "an unpleasant but necessary task." Picking up after yourself is arguably necessary, but we may soon be inundated by claims that it is not "unpleasant".
So Just for fun mashing up the definitions I get A routine (repeating, endless etc.) unpleasant, necessary, household task. 

Now how to determine if the task qualifies under this definition.
Routine No matter how often or well you do the task it has to be done again. This weekend I'm going to spray the dandelions. I may have to hit them twice, but after that, the task should be done for the year, So not a Chore.
Unpleasant If you can't get someone to volunteer to do this it is unpleasant. For me it is hard to see cooking as a chore, but this morning My daughter would not remove clothes from the drier and put them in a basket, so it must be a chore.
Necessary, This is tricky but most men will agree that if SWMBO says it is necessary then it is. DW will tell me that sorting socks is not necessary as she is happy to fish in the basket. On the other hand I have seen wives here complain that their incompetent husbands can't vacuum in the right direction. What I'm saying here is that you can make a non-chore task into a Chore task by either making it necessary by fiat, or by making it unpleasant.
Household, This one got thrown in so that certain repetitive tasks would be excluded from the fairness equation. Automotive is not household. Anything happening in the field or Stream is not household. Anything in the yard or garden may not be household (results vary), but Grocery shopping is Household (somehow) unless of course it is done as a stop on the way home from work. 

Disclaimer: I see this thread as light hearted and offer up these definitions in that spirit. Feel free to rip, shred, or mutilate, I'm not that attached to it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

There are A lot of annoying tasks that have to be done and take up our time. If we live alone, we have to do all the tasks ourselves. Plenty of people live alone, and are even single parents. But then when you couple up for some reason chores become a issue in marriage. 
I read on here all the times about marriages failing, resentment, lack of sex, lack of appreciation etc. and I swear many times it has to do with “chores” and managing the house and years and years of it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> There are A lot of annoying tasks that have to be done and take up our time. If we live alone, we have to do all the tasks ourselves. Plenty of people live alone, and are even single parents. But then when you couple up for some reason chores become a issue in marriage.
> I read on here all the times about marriages failing, resentment, lack of sex, lack of appreciation etc. and I swear many times it has to do with “chores” and managing the house and years and years of it.


You should probably dig into this a little bit. Studies have shown that helping with chores does not help improve sex life in the majority of cases.

It may work for you individually.

That said, partners should carry their weight simply because it's something they ought to do, not because it will equal more sex.

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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> Even though *women work often times just as much as men*, and make just as much as men... we still see house chore inequality. I see this with most of my friends.


Unless they get pregnant.
Unless they don't have to leave work to get sick kids.
Unless they don't stay home with sick kids.
Unless their time of the month doesn't make them call in sick.


"we still see house chore inequality"... Like mowing grass, cutting trees, and changing oil?

garbage opinion IMO.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> You should probably dig into this a little bit. Studies have shown that helping with chores does not help improve sex life in the majority of cases.
> 
> It may work for you individually.
> 
> ...




I don’t think it’s about the chores per-say... I think it’s about respect and appreciation which does affection your relationship with your spouse. For me specifically... there were things that my ex husband did that he thought were no big deal... never clean his dish, never reuse the same towel etc. these little things were SO disrespectful to me. It made me resent him terribly.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> Unless they get pregnant.
> Unless they don't have to leave work to get sick kids.
> Unless they don't stay home with sick kids.
> Unless their time of the month doesn't make them call in sick.
> ...




I live alone. I’ve cut my grass, been getting my oil changed since I started driving. And if I needed a tree cut, I would pay someone to do it.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> I live alone. I’ve cut my grass, been getting my oil changed since I started driving. And if I needed a tree cut, I would pay someone to do it.


You are no where near typical then, are you?
Guess you could always pay someone to do chores too...so there's that.
"never clean his dish, never reuse the same towel etc. these little things were SO disrespectful to me"...I totally agree with you here...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> 
> *Though many men are in denial about it, their resistance communicates a feeling of entitlement to women’s labor.* Men resist because it is in their “interest to do so,” write Scott Coltrane and Michele Adams, leaders in the field of family studies, in their book, “Gender and Families.” By passively refusing to take an equal role, men are reinforcing “a separation of spheres that underpins masculine ideals and perpetuates a gender order privileging men over women.”


Then why does NMMNG sell so many copies? https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339/

The premise of that book is men that are raised by their moms to be obedient and please their families. Nice guys often do all the work around the house and perhaps women resist because it is in their nature to do so as well. 



> AMAZON RANK: #5 in Dating (Books)


Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

StillSearching said:


> Unless they get pregnant.
> Unless they don't have to leave work to get sick kids.
> Unless they don't stay home with sick kids.
> Unless their time of the month doesn't make them call in sick.
> ...


You sort of just made the point of the article. The article was not about sharing household chores in general - it was about sharing childrearing tasks. So if the wife is having to miss work whenever the kids are sick and the husband never does, she is going to be resentful. And so is her employer.

(I have never met any female that missed work for having their period. I guess I just know a heartier stock of women.)

I too like to mow the lawn and prune the **** out of everything. Nobody should let me touch me a chainsaw though.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Bluesclues said:


> You sort of just made the point of the article. The article was not about sharing household chores in general - it was about sharing childrearing tasks. So if the wife is having to miss work whenever the kids are sick and the husband never does, she is going to be resentful. And so is her employer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What self-respecting man ever allowed sense to prevent him from using power equipment?

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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> What self-respecting man ever allowed sense to prevent him from using power equipment?


I never understood my wife's resistance to putting a kick-starter on a vibrator...

Then she rode on the back of a Harley with me and became a convert.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Olympic class grudge holders get less sex too.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

You haven't met the lazy crop of women I have that can't put away a dish to save their lives...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> You should probably dig into this a little bit. Studies have shown that helping with chores does not help improve sex life in the majority of cases.
> 
> It may work for you individually.
> 
> That said, partners should carry their weight simply because it's something they ought to do, not because it will equal more sex.


The problem is that some people finally start doing chores only after years of not doing them and only after resentment has set in deeply with their spouse. At that point, yea, doing chores is only a small part of what might be needed to repair the marriage. And if someone is only doing chores to get more sex, well then that's not good.

As was said by another poster, if a person lives without a spouse/partner they have to do it all themselves. And if they live with a spouse/partner, both people have equal responsibility. A spouse who will not take responsibility for pick up after themselves and other chores like cooking, vacuuming, sweeping, mopping, etc is about as unsexy a spouse as it gets.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> I don’t think it’s about the chores per-say... I think it’s about respect and appreciation which does affection your relationship with your spouse. For me specifically... there were things that my ex husband did that he thought were no big deal... never clean his dish, never reuse the same towel etc. these little things were SO disrespectful to me. It made me resent him terribly.


This is exactly it. 

I was married to a guy who refused to do anything in the home and very little in the yard. When I suggested that we take turns cleaning the toilets, he said "I don't do toilets." But he expected me to? I guess that means that in his eye's I'm lower than he and so I have to always do the toilets? That's just one example.

It is a show of gross disrespect.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

All things equal chore responsibility (inside and outside, childcare etc...) should be equal. But IMO if one spouse works more hours than the other and yes earns significantly more than the other, then they are making contributions that are more important than equality of chores. That doesn't mean they should take for granted their partner, but I think there are occasions where 50-50 is not fair. In other words, what are you bringing to the table...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> > There are A lot of annoying tasks that have to be done and take up our time. If we live alone, we have to do all the tasks ourselves. Plenty of people live alone, and are even single parents. But then when you couple up for some reason chores become a issue in marriage.
> ...


If you are not sexually attracted to your husband, him doing more chores isn't going to make you want to have more sex with him.

If you are sexually attracted to your husband, him doing less chores, below what is fair, is probably going to make your want to have less sex with him (due to resentment). So chores would improve your sex life.

These studies probably don't control for base sexual attraction, and then change only the chore variable.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Livvie said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > Girl_power said:
> ...


A better sex life might improve his chore ability but he need to do more chores to have access to a better sex life! Its a vicious cycle.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Girl_power said:


> .....make just as much as men...


Thank God the gender pay gap has been rectified.....I guess we can wipe that one off the slate of grievances?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> Even though women work often times just as much as men, and make just as much as men... we still see house chore inequality. I see this with most of my friends.


I think an important detail of this article that many men were willing to engage as men, not as women.

Many women are not satisfied with men doing things their way so they take over.

I don't really give a ****.

Mrs. Conan was the same way and made the vast majority of the rules in our home and I enforced them but I didn't make more than one or two rules myself.

She ran our house well and within boundaries I wasn't opposed to but I hardly contributed to most of it.

If she wants me to do something, I will but I will do it how I am equipped to do it.

This article was mostly silly in my estimation.

Men and women are equal human beings but hardly the same.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> I don’t think it’s about the chores per-say... I think it’s about respect and appreciation which does affection your relationship with your spouse. For me specifically... there were things that my ex husband did that he thought were no big deal... never clean his dish, never reuse the same towel etc. these little things were SO disrespectful to me. It made me resent him terribly.


Maybe he was just an ass?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> Even though women work often times just as much as men, and make just as much as men... we still see house chore inequality. I see this with most of my friends.


I am probably guilty of this too. I really try but it's hard, it's not in my nature to care as much as my wife does about the floor being clean, Then again she doesn't care about how good our wifi/computers/printers/cars is though she uses it all the time or all the other things I basically run in our house house.

One thing I always have made a point of us making sure my wife doesn't feel like my Mom. Meaning she is not picking up my dirty cloths off the floor. I don't leave messes for her to clean up. I don't understand any self respecting Man who does that. What is hard for me is that I don't think the house has to be cleaned every week like he does especially when we leave it clean to begin with.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> > .....make just as much as men...
> ...


No, you still need to take a 25% pay cut and do more chores. Down with the patriarchy!


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

The other thing alluded to in the article but not really mentioned is “mental load” that most mother’s carry alone. This article has a simplistic description. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hu...ad-of-a-mother_b_59765076e4b0c6616f7ce447/amp

Basically it is the hundreds of little things that mothers need to keep track of to keep a family functioning that go unnoticed and unappreciated. And when the person doing them also works full-time and makes half/majority of the family income and is doing at minimum half of the household chores, it makes the other parent’s “half” feel not so equal. 

Keeping my kids in shoes is a good example. Nobody is going to do it but me. But what size are they? They literally change every month and finding a time to drag them to a shoe store to get measured and try on new shoes is almost impossible. I could print out one of those shoe measuring print outs and just order online - but there is no ink in the printer - add ordering printer ink to the mental load. Crap. 

Toothbrushes. Would anyone else in my home replace the kids’ toothbrushes if I didn’t buy them? No. But I can’t just procure four random toothbrushes. I have to take into account favorite colors and this child with orthodontics needing different bristles than the others. But the colors can’t overlap because someone will use someone else’s toothbrush. And you go to the store and find a green, purple and yellow one (nobody wants yellow), but no blue - which is the favorite color of two of the kids, so you have to keep looking. It is a ridiculous amount of time and energy spent on something like this. I am guessing that it i delegated this to my husband he would buy a four-pack of yellow toothbrushes at the dollar store and sharpie the kids initials on them. Hmmm, maybe this is a bad example...

I don’t see a way out of the mom being the “keeper of knowledge” as the article I posted calls it. I don’t see men being able to step in and lighten the mental load without women being open to yellow toothbrushes with sharpied initials. 

This mom is not completely open to lightening that load at the expense of quality. So I will press on. But compliments about how amazing I am to my husband and family are encouraged.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Bluesclues said:


> The other thing alluded to in the article but not really mentioned is “mental load” that most mother’s carry alone. This article has a simplistic description.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hu...ad-of-a-mother_b_59765076e4b0c6616f7ce447/amp
> 
> ...


Who give a fack about colored tooth brushes. If they don't like the color then they can color them themselves. My XW left and I stepped into the mom role and did fine. Shoe size, try on the damned shoes!


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Bluesclues said:
> 
> 
> > The other thing alluded to in the article but not really mentioned is “mental load” that most mother’s carry alone. This article has a simplistic description.
> ...


Wow, miss the point much?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> All things equal chore responsibility (inside and outside, childcare etc...) should be equal. But IMO if one spouse works more hours than the other and yes earns significantly more than the other, then they are making contributions that are more important than equality of chores. That doesn't mean they should take for granted their partner, but I think there are occasions where 50-50 is not fair. In other words, what are you bringing to the table...



IMO money doesn’t matter, work hours do. I make WAY more than my boyfriend who works more hours than me. I get out of work at 4pm, he gets out of work anywhere from 5-7. Of course I am going till make dinner for example.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Maybe he was just an ass?




He was. And that’s why I lost respect and attraction for him and filed for divorce. He didn’t start out that way. He use to be respectful and always sharing household chores and doing as much as he can.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> Even though women work often times just as much as men, and make just as much as men... we still see house chore inequality. I see this with most of my friends.


Truth is hard to find in these things. 

Here is a generalisation. If the man does the cooking the woman will answer the question of who does the cooking differently depending on the country:
Scandinavia; "He does the cooking" - no issue or stigma
USA; "He likes to do the cooking as it helps him relax after work" - justification that she is still the goodie
UK; "I do the cooking" - lots of pressure to be the goodie. 

The mental load/emotional labour does vary a lot. 
I have seen France where the "You should have asked" cartoon originated, it was very true. It really seemed common that both would work, but the responsibility for the house was on the woman. Not to say the man would not help, but the shame of a messy house was on her.
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

In other countries, there would be the issue if you have not actually done the washing, but you really feel like you have. When women feel pressure to be the goodie and housewife, this might be included. It is nonsense, but does explain a huge variance in the UK between what women often do on an 'emotional' level and what is physically done.

The other aspect is that both men and women keep up the pretense. This (https://www.apost.com/en/blog/why-i-dont-help-my-wife/2629/) is clearly BS in most of the western world, but it helps some women with their story of the unappreciated victim and some men think they are special because they do housework like a normal person. Men have to justify that they are capable and brave, even if it is nonsense. It took me years to realise how incapable and cowardly most men are and how much is pressure to bluff. The same pressure applies to women, but it is to be selfless, capable and the victim. If a man is a bad husband, he might tell you that (really) whereas a woman never will. Sorry, I am thinking of a couple of women I met who had had bad male partners, but never knew as all their female friends would just say it was typical.

If you read the media, which reflects back our own stories, you see films where a seemingly mundane everyman steps up when he has to and beats up the thugs. That very rarely happens. You will also see the beautiful and patient wife who uncomplainingly juggles everthing, that is rare too, as it is utterly unreasonable to expect.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I think an important detail of this article that many men were willing to engage as men, not as women.
> 
> Many women are not satisfied with men doing things their way so they take over.
> 
> ...


Yes. 

That Shakespeare line of "the world is a stage and we are but players" rings more true as I go through life. People take a narrative from society and live it and think they are free. 

Ideally, a couple are complimentary. If there are people scaring my wife, I will not expect her to go outside and deal with it. That would be stupid. I make most decisions in the relationship, as I can do it quicker (rather than better), but that does not mean I have less respect for her. Sometimes she will not like it, but giving up decision making to her would be far worse for her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Who give a fack about colored tooth brushes. If they don't like the color then they can color them themselves. My XW left and I stepped into the mom role and did fine. Shoe size, try on the damned shoes!


You must have missed the point about color; "But the colors can’t overlap because someone will use someone else’s toothbrush."

Color of toothbrushes is important when you have more than one kid. Either that or you have to write the name of each kid on their toothbrush with an indelible marker... which wears off with use.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Created load. Mrs. Nail has solved the keeper of knowledge problem. She just doesn't do it. Need printer ink? Stick a post-it on Mr. Nails forehead that says printer doesn't work. Want a toothbrush the sam's club pack is in the drawer, pick one and memorize it. Want shoes, show up for a shopping trip, or get dad to take you. 
I don't have some huge resentment over Mrs. Nail's abdication of the keeper of knowledge role. It's just what it is.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well the thing is - the situation that article describes is very common and very unfair. Oh ummm - yes - I have done this to M2. Pleading guilty with no excuse.


It is also true that I would like to see one of these articles address the scenario which I have also experienced and I KNOW isn’t all that rare which is this. H is sole breadwinner with seriously ball busting long hours. Kids are in school. Wife could work a school aligned job but it wouldn’t add a meaningful amount of money. 

Husband feels that wife is resisting his requests for acts of service - for no better reason than when the reverse happens - and his options are: to bite the pillow or get divorced. 

The idea that it is uniquely a male thing to exploit a partners labor - is a big fat lie. 





Girl_power said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> Even though women work often times just as much as men, and make just as much as men... we still see house chore inequality. I see this with most of my friends.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Created load. Mrs. Nail has solved the keeper of knowledge problem. She just doesn't do it. Need printer ink? Stick a post-it on Mr. Nails forehead that says printer doesn't work. Want a toothbrush the sam's club pack is in the drawer, pick one and memorize it. Want shoes, show up for a shopping trip, or get dad to take you.
> I don't have some huge resentment over Mrs. Nail's abdication of the keeper of knowledge role. It's just what it is.


I agree with you about it being a created load to an extent. But all of your examples are your wife still having to be the one to determine an issue and find a solution, even if it is delegating. She is still the keeper. You are apparently out of the loop unless someone tells you. That is the problem. 

Do you go out and buy printer ink with the sticky note? My experience is no - so now the wife has to nag the husband about the ink which leads to bad feelings, no sex, and still no printer ink. 

Who has to think ahead to buy Sam’s Club toothbrushes? Not the father. And yet again, one size does not fit all. Fail. 

Shoes. What little kid tells you they need new shoes? None. You seem to be speaking about teens who WANT new shoes, not kids who actually need new shoes because their feet hurt and they grew a size in a month and don’t say anything but are crabby as hell. But you don’t know that because you are a guy. A guy who thinks the kid will tell him they need new shoes and just tack it on to the next “regular shopping trip” (whatever that means - we don’t regularly shop where they sell shoes). Kids don’t tell you, you have to be on top of all of this yourself - and as you have exemplified - alone, as the mother. 

Good lord, do you know when your child’s underwear doesn’t fit anymore? I bet not. But you would think being told by your wife to go and get size M instead of S at Target was her abdicating the keeper status to you. Why didn’t you look at Timmy and think his drawers are too small? THAT is the point. Now if you came home from shopping and said “Timmy’s underwear seems a bit tight, I bought him mediums” without prompting, that would be something. What you describe is still the mother carrying the mental load and you carrying it out. 

I am not sure why the male posters here are so defensive about this subject. It isn’t debatable.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)




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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


>


Now that is funny 😂😂😂


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Bluesclues said:


> I agree with you about it being a created load to an extent. But all of your examples are your wife still having to be the one to determine an issue and find a solution, even if it is delegating. She is still the keeper. You are apparently out of the loop unless someone tells you. That is the problem.
> 
> Do you go out and buy printer ink with the sticky note? My experience is no - so now the wife has to nag the husband about the ink which leads to bad feelings, no sex, and still no printer ink.
> 
> ...


A few years ago, there was a debate about UK citizens being vulnerable. Apparently, by going without guns, we were cowards. I said it was untrue, that if there seemed to be an intruder downstairs, the man would head down armed with a blunt object and try and confront the intruder. It is something all women seemed to take for granted from me.

Now, I can reconsider, perhaps I was wrong. But, it will be presented as normal and no man I know would admit that he might hide upstairs. Certainly in the UK, less so in Scandinavia. In the UK, many women would seem claim (generation x) to be all doing while in Denmark they claim far less. Surveys that work on actual rather than reported action show the difference disappears. 

All of your experince suggests that is true. Personally, even without children, I accept my home will be messier if I share it with a woman. Almost no woman would say that was so and we will never get to be in the others shoes.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Bluesclues said:


> I agree with you about it being a created load to an extent. But all of your examples are your wife still having to be the one to determine an issue and find a solution, even if it is delegating. She is still the keeper. You are apparently out of the loop unless someone tells you. That is the problem.
> 
> Do you go out and buy printer ink with the sticky note? My experience is no - so now the wife has to nag the husband about the ink which leads to bad feelings, no sex, and still no printer ink.
> 
> ...


You just mansplaned me.
Just because you think my wife didn't abdicate the throne of keeper of knowledge doesn't make it so. I discussed this with her and she agrees. if you create a new burden then it is only fair that you carry it. My kids know their own jockey size since they were able to read numbers. With the irish twins it was way easier to let them keep that knowledge. You think a man can't order printer ink? Hells Bells! Mrs. Nail is surprised that the printer needs ink. Yesterday she got one of our cub parents to put her number into MN,'s phone so she could get our daughter to send the group text. 

Now you may be right after all my youngest is 21 and at my advanced age perhaps the memory is gone, but as I recall in the dim twilight She said, "I'm not your mom, I don't know all that stuff". If you are tired of the mental burden just say those magic words.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Imagine being so bad at relationships, you fight over chores. Lol


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The only issue I have with these comparisons is what gets left out.

Yes, my wife did most of the child rearing chores when the children were young. But then, I was making enough to allow her to be a stay-at-home mother, which was her life's ambition all along. I'm not sure you can find fault with keeping the home running as being her job (and no one here has).

Now that the nest is empty, there's still a disparity. But then, she gets home at 3:00 every day, so dinner is her responsibility. And yes, she also sweeps the floor more and cleans the bathrooms and does the laundry, the latter having been decided long ago when my laundry washing was deemed unacceptable. But who was out under the car changing the brakes the other night? Or who spent several evenings after work building the support structure for the pool's passive heating system? I certainly don't feel used when I'm doing the things for which I have the interest and the skills that she won't take on. These tasks don't get counted in the chore column. 

Why does everything have to be a 50/50 gender split for there to be overall parity? It's the same argument my hi-tech career has been struggling with: it won't be fair until half of the jobs go to women. What happens if we discover that there aren't enough women interested in the job to meet some artificial 50% metric?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Cletus said:


> The only issue I have with these comparisons is what gets left out.
> 
> Yes, my wife did most of the child rearing chores when the children were young. But then, I was making enough to allow her to be a stay-at-home mother, which was her life's ambition all along. I'm not sure you can find fault with keeping the home running as being her job (and no one here has).
> 
> ...


Thank you! We are so selfish and petty these days: who folded the most underwear? Who paid for more of the dinner? blah blah blah

Yes, there are users in the world. But honestly, I'd rather gt taken advantage of by a user every now and again than become some calculator sad sack looking for a slight all the time.

Both hubby and I work. He has longer work hours, but I am gone from the house longer due to my commute. We help each other, but we don't keep tabs. I do more of the cooking and indoor stuff. He does the lawn. Laundry depends on who decided to toss stuff in the washer or transfer it to the dryer. As for some of the specifics, whoever it matters to more does it.

Actually, I think that is a good rule" if it matters that much to you, YOU do it. There are some things I care about that he really doesn't. I do those things. And vice versa. He puts everything in the dryer. I have clothing I don't dry. Instead of expecting him to be psychic, I just put all the "do not dry" clothes in the same load and tell him not to touch it lol.

I gotta agree with Dude on this one - it's easily solved if you're creative and willing to adapt.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Cletus said:


> The only issue I have with these comparisons is what gets left out.
> 
> Yes, my wife did most of the child rearing chores when the children were young. But then, I was making enough to allow her to be a stay-at-home mother, which was her life's ambition all along. I'm not sure you can find fault with keeping the home running as being her job (and no one here has).
> 
> ...


Yeah, nothing new here with all this, especially as it pertains to the SAHM family dynamic. The fact that the entire way of life for that dynamic is completely dependent on the income earners income is regularly dismissed.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

The article reminds me of a story written by a bereaved widow about dirty socks.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Are chores the legacy you want to be remembered for? Do you want to be remembered for dumping your dirty socks on someone else?

Conversely do you want to be remembered for all the hours of chores you enforced? All the summers You spent weeding gardens with the kids? Is that what you want them to think of when they think of you?

Good point Red Oak. I spent too much time reflecting this last week.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Are chores the legacy you want to be remembered for? Do you want to be remembered for dumping your dirty socks on someone else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Again it’s not about the chores but what it means. These things HAVE to be done. And it gets monotonous and old really fast. Then life happens and stress happens and things build up and that sock that he left in the floor puts you over the edge, when normally it wouldn’t really nagged. We have all had those days where we flip out over something small, but it’s not that small thing it’s the sentiment and well as built up resentment, and stress.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> Again it’s not about the chores but what it means. These things HAVE to be done. And it gets monotonous and old really fast. Then life happens and stress happens and things build up and that sock that he left in the floor puts you over the edge, when normally it wouldn’t really nagged. We have all had those days where we flip out over something small, but it’s not that small thing it’s the sentiment and well as built up resentment, and stress.


So what do chores "mean"? I confess, acts of service never really ranker up there on my love language list, so maybe I just don't get it.

This reminds me a bit of the movie where Jennifer Anniston tells her boyfriend "I want you to WANT to do the dishes!" and he fires back, "Why would I WANT to do dishes??"

If clean dishes were that big a deal to Jennifer Anniston, she can just wash em. If having his shirts organized a certain way is a big deal to my hubby, HE can organize his closet.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> So what do chores "mean"? I confess, acts of service never really ranker up there on my love language list, so maybe I just don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And what if nothing bothers your spouse? That’s how it was for me. Literally nothing bothered him. He can live in a dump and can be happy. Most men require very very little to be happy. It’s not fair. If something is important to your spouse, you should do it (within reason). For example, if I think the floor should be swept 2x a week, and my partner is good with it being swept once a month, he can suck it up and sweep once a week. 

If my boyfriend eats and leaves his dish on the table and goes and does something else... he will put it away eventually, usually hours and hours later when he notices it again. Sometimes when I wake up in the morning I see the dish there from the day before and it doesn’t bother him. But it bothers me. Does that mean I should clean it up? Hell no. I had a convo with her that I want him to put his dish away fairly soon, like the next time he gets up from his seat to do something. That makes sense and is respectful and I am not asking for too much.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> For example, if I think the floor should be swept 2x a week, and my partner is good with it being swept once a month, he can suck it up and sweep once a week.


Actually no. The only person you can control is yourself. So you either get to know each other well enough and discuss enough of this stuff beforehand that you prevent it, or you decide what YOUR boundaries are. If you refuse to live in a home that isn't swept once a week, then you have a choice to make.

Boundaries aren't about what you make other people do. They are about you.

If literally nothing bothers him, and you are high maintenance, then you both picked the wrong spouse.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> And what if nothing bothers your spouse? That’s how it was for me. Literally nothing bothered him. He can live in a dump and can be happy. Most men require very very little to be happy. It’s not fair. If something is important to your spouse, you should do it (within reason). For example, if I think the floor should be swept 2x a week, and my partner is good with it being swept once a month, he can suck it up and sweep once a week.
> 
> If my boyfriend eats and leaves his dish on the table and goes and does something else... he will put it away eventually, usually hours and hours later when he notices it again. Sometimes when I wake up in the morning I see the dish there from the day before and it doesn’t bother him. But it bothers me. Does that mean I should clean it up? Hell no. I had a convo with her that I want him to put his dish away fairly soon, like the next time he gets up from his seat to do something. That makes sense and is respectful and I am not asking for too much.


Yeah....ya are kinda asking for too much. You are asking him to appease you. That isn't how it works.

Are you typically a "my way or the highway" kinda gal?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> If something is important to your spouse, you should do it.


Said every married guy who doesn't get blowjobs anymore.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Yeah....ya are kinda asking for too much. You are asking him to appease you. That isn't how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you typically a "my way or the highway" kinda gal?




Everyone has boundaries. I also know that things that are important to me aren’t important to my significant other. And vice versa however I want to make my significant other happy without compromising on my happiness and morals. I want my significant other to be the same way. 

This is who I am... I have never been able to make a guy orgasm with oral alone. But I want to. So it was important to me, to learn how to do that with my significant other so I can make him happy.... Bc nothing makes me more happy than making him happy. So literally we had a discussion, and I practiced and got better and learned what he liked specifically so I can do this for him. It was important to me, Bc I know I am the only one able to give him an orgasm and I want to make him happy. The end. Makes me feel good to be able to do this for him. Some women... rarely refuse sex Bc of the same thing. That’s the kind of person I am. Thoughtful! And aware of what is important to the other person. So yes, pick up the freakin broom and sweep the floor once a week.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> If clean dishes were that big a deal to Jennifer Anniston, she can just wash em. If having his shirts organized a certain way is a big deal to my hubby, HE can organize his closet.




Ok then if you want to have sex then go masterbate. If you want to flirt with men and go to the club, then go do it. If you want to never get dressed and wear makeup then don’t do it. If you want to never buy flowers and go on dates then don’t. If you want to gain weight and not care about your looks do it. If you want to not shave your legs or clean your vagina, then do it. Then what is the point of being married??!! 

I am NOT my way or the highway. Having the mindset of handling only what bothers you is terrible. Then be single. 

That’s the problem with people today. They want only the good in the marriage and never the bad. My ex loved coming home to a clean house and cooked dinner. He hated doing anything he didn’t want to do. Sorry that is not the way marriage works.


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## CubsFan89 (Jan 9, 2019)

What's works for us and by no means is a gold standard is basically which ever spouse gets home first figures dinner out [80% of the time me].

We load / unload the dishes together unless one of us is sick and or overly exhausted from work. In which case the other spouse will do them.

I take all garbage out, because we have a split level house and then 20+ steps to go down to the drive way to the garbage can and I don't want her carrying it that far, it's normally pretty heavy. Not saying she couldn't because she could I just feel better taking it out.

I take most the laundry downstairs to wash, dry and bring back upstairs, she folds and puts away. 

She bathes both the toddlers and brushes their teeth while I put leftovers away [if there is any] or take the pups out one last time before bed.

She reads the kids their bedtime stories while I pick up the living room and lock up the house.

I do 80% of the grocery shopping because it's on my way home from work and I enjoy cooking so I can buy what I want to make the family for dinners. 

She handles 80% of the children related incidents at night, wetting bed, nightmares, etc. Because I work at 3am.

She works Monday - Friday. I've been working Monday - Saturday but when I wasn't on 6 days a week I normally worked at least 1 weekend day sometimes both. She normally cleans Saturday afternoon by which I mean a "deep clean" toilets, showers, bathrooms, etc. If I'm home I help with some of it but she doesn't make a big deal out of it if I fall asleep after working or if I take care of the yard instead. 

That being said I do the mowing and snow removal, she weeds, gardens, etc. I could do without the gardening and other nick knacky stuff she does to the yard but she enjoys it.

We don't keep a tally or anything like that just working together to make each other's lives easier. 

Again it's worked for us, and is by no means a situation that will/ would work for everyone. 
Cubs


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > If clean dishes were that big a deal to Jennifer Anniston, she can just wash em. If having his shirts organized a certain way is a big deal to my hubby, HE can organize his closet.
> ...


 Good grief! Calm down, we aren't married to each other lol. All I am saying is that no matter how much you want someone else to be like you, they may or may not be. And you cannot control anyone except yourself. So if you are not getting what is important to you, you can't make them change. You can only figure out how you are going to deal with it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I didn't comment on this thread because I was unhappy or having problems. My husband and I are perfectly happy with the way we do things, and it works for us. So if someone is unhappy then obviously their way is not working. Don't get mad at me because my way his working


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Then why does NMMNG sell so many copies? https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339/
> 
> The premise of that book is men that are raised by their moms to be obedient and please their families. Nice guys often do all the work around the house and perhaps women resist because it is in their nature to do so as well.
> 
> ...


The below article is almost, nay is, ridiculous. 

Quote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/o...core-ios-share

Though many men are in denial about it, their resistance communicates a feeling of entitlement to women’s labor. Men resist because it is in their “interest to do so,” write Scott Coltrane and Michele Adams, leaders in the field of family studies, in their book, “Gender and Families.” By passively refusing to take an equal role, men are reinforcing “a separation of spheres that underpins masculine ideals and perpetuates a gender order privileging men over women.”

This guy has too much time on his hands. 

DW takes care of the house interior, infrequently I help with major stuff if company coming.

I take care of the exterior, build stuff, fix things, have all the power tools and scars to prove it.

😎😎 she does love the tool belts.

She doesn't help outside, but feels entitled to give directions 😍😍 which is fine. 

She trimmed some bushes maybe 25 years ago with an old electric trimmer; trimmed bushes and drop cord at the same time. 

I take care of the cars, although now she'll go by the Subaru dealer doing the gold maintenance plan, which she just likes to do.
I bought the car. But really it's we bought the car because what I have is hers to have and hold, anyway.

😀😀 she may have done that on purpose!! We'll never know.

I just fixed the cord and reset the breaker.

I pick up my stuff inside mostly. Time to time we have a house cleaning service do the deep cleaning stuff.

I haven't vacuumed in 35 yrs. She hasn't mowed the grass in 35 yrs.

It works for us.

It's not that hard to find each couple's balance of home maintenance.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> That’s the problem with people today. They want only the good in the marriage and never the bad. My ex loved coming home to a clean house and cooked dinner. He hated doing anything he didn’t want to do. Sorry that is not the way marriage works.


Aren't you complaining about men not doing house chores? You only want the good things in marriage, not to wash his socks.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Cletus said:


> The only issue I have with these comparisons is what gets left out...
> 
> 
> ... But who was out under the car changing the brakes the other night? Or who spent several evenings after work building the support structure for the pool's passive heating system?


Typical clam bake article. Designed to get all the clams steaming hot with anger at men in general. I also notice none of the "typical" man chores are ever on any of these lists. Gee, I wonder why?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Not to mention one of the surest ways to get me to not ever do something is to get all in a hissy fit huff and tell me I darn well better do X lol


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I didn't comment on this thread because I was unhappy or having problems. My husband and I are perfectly happy with the way we do things, and it works for us. So if someone is unhappy then obviously their way is not working. Don't get mad at me because my way his working




I’m not mad at you. We are having a discussion. I was pointing out how dealing with the things that only matter to you is not healthy in most relationships. 
My ex husband use to be great to me, use to help out around the house, use to do things that he knew made me happy. Just like I to him. He stopped doing those things, and I continued to treat him well. In the end, I wasn’t happy Bc he didn’t consider my feelings, and no longer did things that made me happy etc. so we are now divorced. Trust me I am very well aware of the fact that you can’t change people... that’s why I’m divorced. He changed how he treated me and I was no longer happy and unwilling to put up with it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Aren't you complaining about men not doing house chores? You only want the good things in marriage, not to wash his socks.




I am divorced Bc of these issues essentially. Now that I’m in a new relationship, I am more aware of these issues. We don’t live together so we don’t have these issues YET. 

I am just finding all these new articles/studies Interesting... how women in LTR lose attraction for their spouse, how women are happier single and without kids, and how women still carry the majority of child rearing roles even if they work full time. I find all these things no coincidental.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

For a chores thread it really is going pretty well. 
I'm going to re tell a true story from my only marriage. In the first 2 years of marriage we lived in apartments and did laundry at laundromats. It is a pissy way to spend every saturday morning, but it did have some advantages over the current method. One was that all of the laundry got folded. But that's really not important to the story.
The important bit is the towels. For some reason towels were the hill to die on. No matter what I did it was wrong. "you folded the towels wrong" then she would undo them and re do them showing me the one true way to fold towels. By the time the next saturday rolled around I had forgotten the instruction and correction and we went around again. So finally she would ask how I was going to fold the towels before I started. (getting proactive) So I demonstrated. Lay the towel out on the folding table and fold it in half the long way. Then fold it in half the long way again. Then fold it in half the log way one last time. Then tie it in an overhand knot. Half,& Half & half again and tie it in a knot. 30 years later, I'm never asked to fold a towel. Now the moral of the story is not How to get out of folding towels, it is that you can make any task into a chore if you just pick at it long enough. 

So if your breaking point is a dish on the table in the morning, then you are Choosing chores over love. You will not be alone. Lots of people do. The last thing my dad and I talked about before he died was how much of a mistake it was to focus so much on chores. It's the first thing I said on this thread and the point I'll keep coming back to. Chores are created work. Make sure you have a real need before you create a new one.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail nailed it. 99.99999% of the time when a woman rants about chores, she wouldn't be happy with the way the man did it anyway. Here is how you fold towels… anyway you want to, and then you put them in the closet. Nit picking the how and the when is shooting yourself in the foot. I don't want to do anything for someone who is going to nag me all the time period


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Read this recently somewhere. We have done this informally for years. 

Make a list, and for each job put a number for you and spouse

1 = things that have to be done your OCD way
2 = things you like doing 
3 = things you are good at, but don’t necessarily like doing
4 = things you absolutely hate to do

Lowest number owns the job. Ties we tend do together.

First time I stayed at her place I helped with dishes, she never hand washed another dish if I was around, see #1.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I am divorced Bc of these issues essentially. Now that I’m in a new relationship, I am more aware of these issues. We don’t live together so we don’t have these issues YET.
> 
> I am just finding all these new articles/studies Interesting... how women in LTR lose attraction for their spouse, how women are happier single and without kids, and how women still carry the majority of child rearing roles even if they work full time. I find all these things no coincidental.


Confirmation bias.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't you complaining about men not doing house chores? You only want the good things in marriage, not to wash his socks.
> ...


I got news for you, its not at all one-sided. Marriages are hard, raising kids is hard, dealing with a mate that is lazy is hard. If you have no desire for children or a family or a long term mate, then staying single is far easier. 

I think most people have a biological urge to procreate and you almost need a two earner household on average to do it. The flip side is all those happy single and childless people that wait too long and suddenly decide they want offspring but simply can't.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I did most of the chores, but wasn't enough... I was doing them to get sex, apparently... you can never win... :laugh:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

We know that every man on TAM does 50% or more of all household chores, cooking, shopping and all of the yard work and home repairs.

However, this does not seem to be the norm in society at large.

From my experience, meaning in my marriages, men do little to nothing. They do not clean, cook, shop, do yard work or fix cars. When it comes to child care they do as little of that as possible.

And no I was not a SAHM. I ended up the bread winner because, well first husband became ill and basically last his mind; second husband decided to quit his job as an Electrical Engineer with an MS to go to medical school (did not consult with me about this), 3rd husband lost his job with IBM after 9/11 and decided that he no longer needed work and took up computer games and web surfing. 

It is disrespectful to dump everything that it takes to run a family and a home on your spouse. I don't care if it's a man or a woman who is being lazy and self centered. It's just disrespectful and the person being taken advantage of should dump the user.

Now that's my experience. To me, any man who is not a 50/50 partner with his wife during the hours when he is not at his job is not worth the space he's taking up. The same goes for any woman who is not a 50/50 partner with her husband. It's disrespectful to dump all the work at home on one's spouse.

And to answer the question about 'well he earns the living' when it comes to SAHM's, the person who works outside the home gets to leave their job and go home when not at work. The SAHM (or SAHD) is on the job 24/7. So when a person is not at work, they should be helping out at home.

And yea, put anything like yard work, fixing cars, taking kids to the doctor, etc in the list of 'chores' to make sure that everything it take to run a family and a household is considered.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> Mr. Nail nailed it. 99.99999% of the time when a woman rants about chores, she wouldn't be happy with the way the man did it anyway. Here is how you fold towels… anyway you want to, and then you put them in the closet. Nit picking the how and the when is shooting yourself in the foot. I don't want to do anything for someone who is going to nag me all the time period


Wow, way to dismiss the concerns that many of us have lived with. 

According to you, the reason that my husband did not lift a find is all my fault. Yep. He did not cook dinner for his own kids when I had to work late because it's all my fault. He played on the computer all day and let the back yard go to weeds because it's all my fault.

You have to look at things on a case by case basis. Making gross generalizations like the above is simply a way to dismiss a person's concerns.

What grownups do is to talk about how things are to be done in their home and then they do them accordingly. Sometimes his way is better suited to the situation and times her way is. 

For example, fold the towels so that they fit in the linen closet in a way that they don't all fall out when a kid takes out a towel.

Or when you do the dishes, finish the job. Don't leave a dirty sink and sopping wet counters.

One of the tricks that people pull who want to weasel out of doing things do, is to do them so badly that the other person gives up and just does it.

When a grown up feels that their spouse is being too picky about a chore, they actually talk to them about it. Yep, instead of getting passive aggressive and doing them half assed, or not doing them at all, they deal with it by talking and negotiating.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> And yea, put anything like yard work, fixing cars, taking kids to the doctor, etc in the list of 'chores' to make sure that everything it take to run a family and a household is considered.


That's not what this article is about.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> Wow, way to dismiss the concerns that many of us have lived with.
> 
> According to you, the reason that my husband did not lift a find is all my fault. Yep. He did not cook dinner for his own kids when I had to work late because it's all my fault. He played on the computer all day and let the back yard go to weeds because it's all my fault.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that there are cases where the lazy spouse was just....lazy and uncaring. However, I do not believe this is the rule. MY anecdotal observations have been that many men give up helping because they don't help the "right" way. And not because they were trying to be awful. It really doesn't matter how towels are folded. It really doesn't matter if you fill the sink or keep the water running to do dishes. It really doesn't matter (though it makes me cringe to say so) what side of the plate the fork is on. It doesn't matter if the socks are knotted or folded in on each other. It's okay if the baby gets both corn AND carrots and not a green jar.

These are the kinds of things I mean.

And I'm trying to find where I said not to talk about it.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

People that nag you about folding towel right need psychological help.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> From my experience, meaning in my marriages, men do little to nothing. They do not clean, cook, shop, do yard work or fix cars. When it comes to child care they do as little of that as possible.


I think the takeaway here is that you're not very good at picking men.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> For example, fold the towels so that they fit in the linen closet in a way that they don't all fall out when a kid takes out a towel.
> 
> Or when you do the dishes, finish the job. Don't leave a dirty sink and sopping wet counters.


Kind of making her point. If I got *****ed at for not folding towels to someone's standard, I would tell them they can do all the towel laundry from that point on. 

If I did the dishes, and you come behind me and tell me its not up to your standards, I would inform you that I wont be doing dishes anymore then and you can take over as I dont want my work to be a disappoint to you. 


My wife and I have folded socks and towels differently our entire lives. Guess what we've never had a fight about? How towels or socks are "supposed" to be folded. What a stupid and childish thing to start a fight with your spouse over. You might say "it doesn't have to be a fight, it could be a discussion and a correction" or whatever. How much free time does one have to fret about how towels are folded? Get a hobby or something! When your life is so boring that you are worried about how towels are folded, you need to do something to fix that.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Maybe it is because my mom was a business person, I learned that everyone pitches in-or else. My wife came from a family where her mother worked but was responsible for the house and the kitchen for that matter. My in-laws thought it strange, therefore, when we came up with out segregation of duties: First one through the door, cooks. Second one cleans up. We each do our own laundry, this included the two kids as they grew. When we got to a certain level of income, we agreed to hiring a cleaning lady once every other week (when the kids left, it was changed to once every three weeks). I clean up my "Man cave". I have an electronic air cleaner running as I smoke cigars and cannabis in my cave (actually my wife and I both do that in the cave, but she does not admit to it)

After we were married several years, and my MIL saw how we worked together, she asked my FIL to do the same. I was confronted for "ruining" his little fiefdom. I am, however, impressed that my kids have continued this: My daughter is a professional, and her schedule can be chaotic. My son in law works regular hours, and fills in for the spots where she cannot fill. My son is in a roommate situation, and has impressed his roommate's GF several times over. AND he inherited my cookery skills, so his roommate's GF was constantly setting him up with her GF's, who have as well been impressed. (I said that was my preferred method of seduction when I was single)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> To me, any man who is not a *50/50 partner with his wife during the hours when he is not at his job* is not worth the space he's taking up. The same goes for any woman who is not a 50/50 partner with her husband. It's disrespectful to dump all the work at home on one's spouse.
> 
> And to answer the question about 'well he earns the living' when it comes to SAHM's, the person who works outside the home gets to leave their job and go home when not at work. The SAHM (or SAHD) is on the job 24/7. So when a person is not at work, they should be helping out at home.


The bolded is a fine point that often gets overlooked.

I've seen women seem to think that when their husband comes home from work, *he's* in change of everything in the house because she's been doing it all day.

This would only be fair if she then left and went to work.

Family tasks should be shared 50/50 when both are home.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > To me, any man who is not a *50/50 partner with his wife during the hours when he is not at his job* is not worth the space he's taking up. The same goes for any woman who is not a 50/50 partner with her husband. It's disrespectful to dump all the work at home on one's spouse.
> ...


Depends what the SAHM is doing all day. Changing diapers, watching, feeding children is a full time job and underappreciated. But I imagine during the down time like naps or whatever quiet time that keeping a house clean wouldn't be neglected. Whats it take 30 minutes if you stay on top of it? No working husband wants to work all day then come home to a dirty house and no food on the table. I'm not saying he shouldnt share in watching the kids or doing dishes after dinner, but not clean up a damn house after working all day. If thats what a SAHM is then put the kids in daycare and make some income.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> The bolded is a fine point that often gets overlooked.
> 
> I've seen women seem to think that when their husband comes home from work, *he's* in change of everything in the house because she's been doing it all day.
> 
> ...


An excellent point. Person has been working all day. Gets home and is handed the kids and told "thank God you're home, I need a break." Then proceeds to sit on the couch doing nothing, while the spouse that was working all day now is on duty in the house. 

Besides, modern technology is so simple. Throw clothes in machine, press button. Throw dishes in machine, press button. Oh yeah, you're really slaving away aren't you?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Depends what the SAHM is doing all day. Changing diapers, watching, feeding children is a full time job and underappreciated. But I imagine during the down time like naps or whatever quiet time that keeping a house clean wouldn't be neglected. Whats it take 30 minutes if you stay on top of it? No working husband wants to work all day then come home to a dirty house and no food on the table. I'm not saying he shouldnt share in watching the kids or doing dishes after dinner, but not clean up a damn house after working all day. If thats what a SAHM is then put the kids in daycare and make some income.


No offense, but you kind of have no clue what it is like to have 2 2 and under. The newborn still isn't sleeping, you're nursing, the toddler is going in behind you undoing everything, and sometimes during their nap YOU NEED a nap to function.

So yeah........no

Plus, staying at home is about more than diaper and chores and dinner. It's about raising YOUR child, spending time, reading to them, engaging in play, etc.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

There is such a lack of respect that some men have for their wives its Astounding. And that is why women lose sexual Interest in their LTR only after they move in.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Depends what the SAHM is doing all day. Changing diapers, watching, feeding children is a full time job and underappreciated. But I imagine during the down time like naps or whatever quiet time that keeping a house clean wouldn't be neglected. Whats it take 30 minutes if you stay on top of it? No working husband wants to work all day then come home to a dirty house and no food on the table. I'm not saying he shouldnt share in watching the kids or doing dishes after dinner, but not clean up a damn house after working all day. If thats what a SAHM is then put the kids in daycare and make some income.
> ...


So Hubby needs to work 8-6 come home clean the house, cook and then maybe he can see his kids....once he folds the towels properly.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> So Hubby needs to work 8-6 come home clean the house, cook and then maybe he can see his kids....once he folds the towels properly.




Who is saying that? Why so passive aggressive?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > So Hubby needs to work 8-6 come home clean the house, cook and then maybe he can see his kids....once he folds the towels properly.
> ...


The otherside is work 8-6, come home to a clean house and dinner. Husband washes dishes, takes out trash and spends time with kids. If its the latter then cool. If its the former, put the kids in daycare and earn income.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> No offense, but you kind of have no clue what it is like to have 2 2 and under. The newborn still isn't sleeping, you're nursing, the toddler is going in behind you undoing everything, and sometimes during their nap YOU NEED a nap to function.
> 
> So yeah........no
> 
> Plus, staying at home is about more than diaper and chores and dinner. It's about raising YOUR child, spending time, reading to them, engaging in play, etc.


My kids are 14 months apart. She's a teacher, I worked retail. Meaning my schedule was the flexible one. Besides summer and holidays, I was the one home with kids more often. I took them to every single doctors visit and all that stuff... I'm not trying to be rude, but the difficulty of a SAHP's work is so over exaggerated its laughable. Not saying it's a cake walk, but it's not extremely difficult like some would have you believe. Man, I got to go the park all the time, go to the mall all the time, watch cartoons, play games... Some days are more difficult than others, but you get a lot of down time. Certainly more than enough to throw a load in the washer and press a button. 

If my wife made big money and offered me the SAHD role, I would gladly take it. Its easier than my job is now. I don't have that difficult of a job either. 

To be fair, we did bottle feed. I dont know if breast feeding really makes that big of a difference or not. It very well may, I don't know.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Its funny, but when my wife was on mat leave, which morphed into her running her own business from the house, so she could be with the kids as they grew, I still held up my end. I still did laundry, and am proficient in the use of bleach. (My wife hates using the stuff, so I am the unofficial "whites and brights" guy-and do that part of her laundry as well.) I bet I can still change a diaper at 3AM with my eyes closed, and since my daughter just got married, I can't wait to do that all over again.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Taxman said:


> Its funny, but when my wife was on mat leave, which morphed into her running her own business from the house, so she could be with the kids as they grew, I still held up my end. I still did laundry, and am proficient in the use of bleach. (My wife hates using the stuff, so I am the unofficial "whites and brights" guy-and do that part of her laundry as well.) I bet I can still change a diaper at 3AM with my eyes closed, and since my daughter just got married, I can't wait to do that all over again.


I don't know what is funny about that. Sounds like you did what needs to be done. I'm confused by the "her laundry" part. Do you guys do your laundry separately? Seems inefficient.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> ...


You arent that obtuse. I didn't say that.

I just commented on your gross oversimplification of what a SAHM does.

You're being intentionally ridiculous.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > No offense, but you kind of have no clue what it is like to have 2 2 and under. The newborn still isn't sleeping, you're nursing, the toddler is going in behind you undoing everything, and sometimes during their nap YOU NEED a nap to function.
> ...


Sigh

I don't think it's some monumental task, but yeah. The post I quoted was oversimplified bordering on disrespectful.

You don't have to agree.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"To be fair, we did bottle feed. I dont know if breast feeding really makes that big of a difference or not. It very well may, I don't know"

Let's see… since the woman cannot detach her breast, yeah it is a bigger deal because she has to do every bit of the feeding round the clock.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I don't know what is funny about that. Sounds like you did what needs to be done. I'm confused by the "her laundry" part. Do you guys do your laundry separately? Seems inefficient.


May be inefficient, but, I have my own way of doing my laundry, and she has hers. She hates the dryer, and hangs everything. I believe in appliances. Yes it is inefficient, however, it works for us, and PS, I used to be a really fat guy. My underwear was sweaty, stinky and disgusting. I believed that my doing my own laundry kept our gross level down to a dull roar.


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

Split them chores...all about that I guess.

The contention comes from the expectation of when and to what quality. I enjoy (no joke) vacumming and steam cleaning, it is just good for my constitution. But I wouldn't tolerate my wife forcefully telling me to vacuum. She can ask if at some point I wouldn't mind knocking out the carpets. But I am not her slave...nor is she mine. I guess my issue is if it is a request that reeks of right now and because I said so, without any justification...ya no. I don't do that to her...at least I don't think I do. 


This hasn't happened in a really really long time, but in the couple years into our marriage this was the case. 

WE have implied expectations...since she is a SAHM, she makes dinner etc; but as long as she asks and preps me beforehand, typically the day before, I'll totally make dinner. She just ain't dropping that on me when I get home. I deal with with most but not all the outside chores. 

That being said, it amazes me how married couples love to create this boundary of service for the person they are supposed to love, cherish, and SERVE the most. I'll bend over backwards for my boss or coworker...but don't dare ask me, wife/husband, for anything extra. Balance I guess...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

cashcratebob said:


> Split them chores...all about that I guess.
> 
> The contention comes from the expectation of when and to what quality. I enjoy (no joke) vacumming and steam cleaning, it is just good for my constitution. But I wouldn't tolerate my wife forcefully telling me to vacuum. She can ask if at some point I wouldn't mind knocking out the carpets. But I am not her slave...nor is she mine. I guess my issue is if it is a request that reeks of right now and because I said so, without any justification...ya no. I don't do that to her...at least I don't think I do.
> 
> ...


Yes!!


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Sigh
> 
> I don't think it's some monumental task, but yeah. The post I quoted was oversimplified bordering on disrespectful.
> 
> You don't have to agree.


II'll be upfront in telling you our daughter was sleeping through the night super young. So we did have that luxury that a lot of parents don't have. She was very fussy when awake though. Sometimes the only option was to go for a drive, which is bad advice to give anyone as we risked it becoming a requirement. But yeah, some days there was nothing you could do other than stick the kids in the car seats and go for a drive. Always knocked them out. We tried the dryer trick, that never worked. She cried a lot. Our son much less. He, like you mentioned, was just always getting into stuff, so you has to have your eyes on him nearly always. 

Kids are funny. You can have your eyes on them and they are just as loud as anything you can imagine while playing and having a good time. You turn your back for a second, and like an assassin, they move across the room in complete silence within the blink of an eye and are getting into something they shouldn't be getting into. 


Back to the topic. A SAHP has a difficult time initially. Then it gets easier and easier. The second kid is easier than the first, you get routines down, gain skills you never had, become more efficient at a lot of things... Then, unless you homeschool, suddenly your kids are gone from 8-3 every day and you have all the time in the world. I'll go easier on a SAHP through the first 2-3 years, but after that I dont know what in the world a SAHP could possibly be complaining about in regards to work load.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

From the article:


> Though many men are in denial about it, their resistance communicates a feeling of entitlement to women’s labor.


Good thing women don't feel entitled to men's labor. All I hear from women is them constantly saying that they wish they could just find an unsuccessful, poor man living out of a shoebox to marry...


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> "To be fair, we did bottle feed. I dont know if breast feeding really makes that big of a difference or not. It very well may, I don't know"
> 
> Let's see… since the woman cannot detach her breast, yeah it is a bigger deal because she has to do every bit of the feeding round the clock.


Like I said, I don't know. I remember seeing breast pumps and such. I figured like a cow you just hooked your teets up to a machine and spit out a gallon for them. Put it in the fridge and try to not mix it up accidentally and put breast milk in your foot loops.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> There is such a lack of respect that some men have for their wives its Astounding. And that is why women lose sexual Interest in their LTR only after they move in.


Yes yes I disrespected my wifes towel folding method. 
She had a choice, She could back down and accept the way I fold, 
She could dismiss me from laundry chores,
She could take the battle to the bedroom,
She could continue to nag until I gave in.

This was early in the relationship, and as a result of tying a few towels in knots, we learned something valuable about each other. She learned that I'm a smart ass. (I'll submit but you will pay for it) I learned how to handle my mother in law. 

Now I know you are just sitting there fuming that I haven't folded laundry for 30 years. I may have misled you there. You see once laundry moved to home. The task of folding entered a whole new realm. It was no longer_ how_ it got folded it was_ if_ it got folded. I probably own enough laundry baskets to supply a family of 12. And they were all full of clean, but very wrinkly laundry. As a result we have learned 2 things about each other. Mrs Nail hates folding. And, If I can get out of hand washing dishes I'll do anything else. So I didn't get out of folding towels. I fold all the towels (with one important exception - later) And She is happy to accept any way That I fold them, except half & half & half again and tie it in a knot. I also fold all of her clothes and my clothes And family stuff. The bounce back kids wash their own. 

The important exception, and I saved it for last because it rolls back to my theme here. Mrs. Nail will happily fold laundry, even socks, if I do it with her. In fact if she catches me folding she will just pitch in. No asking, nagging, begging. Just fun to be together. Folding is no longer a _chore_ because it is no longer an unpleasant task. Neither is unloading the dishwasher, cleaning the counters, cooking, almost every chore has been wiped out.

The hold out is Choosing what's for dinner. That's still hotly contended and I'm not sure we can cure it.
MN


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Things also change. 25 years ago she did all the laundry because of her OCD and my dislike of laundry. It was fine. But as time went on she was having a harder time physically and if I was around would ask me to move the laundry (bring up or downstairs or flip from washer to drier). No problem, she was still "doing" the laundry (her way) and I was happy to provide the muscle. Now, after a little learning on my part and less OCD on her part, I "do" most of the laundry, but she still has to fold it (mutually agreed upon).


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> Things also change. 25 years ago she did all the laundry because of her OCD and my dislike of laundry. It was fine. But as time went on she was having a harder time physically and if I was around would ask me to move the laundry (bring up or downstairs or flip from washer to drier). No problem, she was still "doing" the laundry (her way) and I was happy to provide the muscle. Now, after a little learning on my part and less OCD on her part, I "do" most of the laundry, but she still has to fold it (mutually agreed upon).


IMO, its better to have a nagging clean freak of a wife than one that couldn't care less about living in their own squallor. What can you do with that? I've had it both ways and I'll take nagging over a dirty spouse any day of the week. I'm a little OCD as is so I don't mind helping out around the house. Just don't treat me like a butler you can order around. From my experience though, one sex isn't superior in this area. Maybe 50 years ago... 

So I think this article is all about confirmation bias, they will always be right 50% of the time.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Back to the topic. A SAHP has a difficult time initially. Then it gets easier and easier. The second kid is easier than the first, you get routines down, gain skills you never had, become more efficient at a lot of things... Then, unless you homeschool, suddenly your kids are gone from 8-3 every day and you have all the time in the world. I'll go easier on a SAHP through the first 2-3 years, but after that I dont know what in the world a SAHP could possibly be complaining about in regards to work load."

You Have a good point there. Once kids begin school, I can't really think of any legitimate reason a parent would need to still stay home and twiddle their thumbs from 8 to 3.

I went back to work when my oldest was 10 weeks old. I stayed home for 2 years after my youngest was born because they were close together and because they were some other issues. However, I went back to work when my youngest was to and never looked back. There is no way I would have stayed home while they were in school.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> "Back to the topic. A SAHP has a difficult time initially. Then it gets easier and easier. The second kid is easier than the first, you get routines down, gain skills you never had, become more efficient at a lot of things... Then, unless you homeschool, suddenly your kids are gone from 8-3 every day and you have all the time in the world. I'll go easier on a SAHP through the first 2-3 years, but after that I dont know what in the world a SAHP could possibly be complaining about in regards to work load."
> 
> You Have a good point there. Once kids begin school, I can't really think of any legitimate reason a parent would need to still stay home and twiddle their thumbs from 8 to 3.
> 
> I went back to work when my oldest was 10 weeks old. I stayed home for 2 years after my youngest was born because they were close together and because they were some other issues. However, I went back to work when my youngest was to and never looked back. There is no way I would have stayed home while they were in school.



To me, this is ideal. If I had a job that paid well, I would have loved to be able to afford for my wife to stay home those first couple of years. However, once school starts, like you she needs to do something, so she would choose to go back to work. 

There's another side, they talk about SAHP like its a lifetime. It's literally 5 years tops. But to be honest, lots of parents do the "mother's day out" programs or whatever. Like a 10-2 daycare/preschool 2-3 days/week. with kids as young as 6 months. So even in those first few years, you can easily get some time off. The other side is, after the kids are in school and the SAHP is home all day, or out shopping, or doing lord knows what, they still talk about SAHP being this uber difficult job. Then some SAHP's seriously slack. I don't know if they feel like they've earned the time off for a hard couple of years or what. How many SAHP's have their kids in school all day, then ***** and moan that their working spouse doesn't do the dishes? Thats horse ****!


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Sigh
> ...


You should never put your kids in the drier (not even on delicate cycle), they might break it and those suckers are super expensive to fix...might as well buy a new one then...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

When I was a teacher, there were 3 types of stay-at-home moms with school age children. Type one was the manacure, pedicure, 2 hours A-day at the gym, lunch at the Country Club type moms. Type to were the generational welfare moms. Tykes 3 was a tiny group of moms whose husbands did not let them work because of the whole Uber traditional thing they had going on


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You should never put your kids in the drier (not even on delicate cycle), they might break it and those suckers are super expensive to fix...might as well buy a new one then...


Lol. A belt replacement would be the worst case. Its not like my baby tumbling around in there will damage the heating element.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> When I was a teacher, there were 3 types of stay-at-home moms with school age children. Type one was the manacure, pedicure, 2 hours A-day at the gym, lunch at the Country Club type moms. Type to were the generational welfare moms. Tykes 3 was a tiny group of moms whose husbands did not let them work because of the whole Uber traditional thing they had going on


Nuance!

You will not fit it!


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

This is kind of sexist, but on the flipside the men take more care of the yard, home maintenance, and automotive chores. And a lot of the time I think it's because they are more particular about how often and to what standard they are done. For example, get the oil changed at any-old corner lube place for $25 or at the specialized mechanic with synthetic and full flush for $100+? Even though my wife had a car before we met and kept it running, I take on 100% of the car-related chores because I have specific ways I want it done. I'm fine with that, but I often feel like these "manly" chores get forgotten about when discussing the balance of chores. It's just expected that these are to be done by the man, so there's no reason to think they'd be part of the 50/50 split.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > You should never put your kids in the drier (not even on delicate cycle), they might break it and those suckers are super expensive to fix...might as well buy a new one then...
> ...


They don't make em like they use to...goes for the kids too!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr The Other said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > When I was a teacher, there were 3 types of stay-at-home moms with school age children. Type one was the manacure, pedicure, 2 hours A-day at the gym, lunch at the Country Club type moms. Type to were the generational welfare moms. Tykes 3 was a tiny group of moms whose husbands did not let them work because of the whole Uber traditional thing they had going on
> ...



LOL

Obviously, this is an over simplification and somewhat tongue in cheek. However, those seemed to be the over arching themes we all observed with our students. There were of course a few parents who were disabled or ill or had a special needs child. But most of the time there wasn't really a need to stay home for the children while the children were not at home. Even the moms who did not work full time usually had some sort of at home or part time work to keep them occupied and contribute to the family income. Like I said, the ones who actually did no work at all typically fit into one of those 3 categories and less there was a health issue


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> When I was a teacher, there were 3 types of stay-at-home moms with school age children. Type one was the manacure, pedicure, 2 hours A-day at the gym, lunch at the Country Club type moms. Type to were the generational welfare moms. Tykes 3 was a tiny group of moms whose husbands did not let them work because of the whole Uber traditional thing they had going on


I know all 3 types. The tiny group you mentioned end up being the PTA moms. Volunteer for every school function. Chaperone every field trip. Saints, the majority of them.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > When I was a teacher, there were 3 types of stay-at-home moms with school age children. Type one was the manacure, pedicure, 2 hours A-day at the gym, lunch at the Country Club type moms. Type to were the generational welfare moms. Tykes 3 was a tiny group of moms whose husbands did not let them work because of the whole Uber traditional thing they had going on
> ...


My ex did it one year, I will never understand why, just not the type. She was the only one with a job. They met each month just to gossip I think.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> LOL
> 
> Obviously, this is an over simplification and somewhat tongue in cheek. However, those seemed to be the over arching themes we all observed with our students. There were of course a few parents who were disabled or ill or had a special needs child. But most of the time there wasn't really a need to stay home for the children while the children were not at home. Even the moms who did not work full time usually had some sort of at home or part time work to keep them occupied and contribute to the family income. Like I said, the ones who actually did no work at all typically fit into one of those 3 categories and less there was a health issue


I suspect that men overestimate how similar they are in realtionships and women overestimate how similar they are. To hear someone say we vary is refreshing!


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Mr The Other said:


> I suspect that men overestimate how similar they are in realtionships and women overestimate how similar they are. To hear someone say we vary is refreshing!


Which makes articles like the one posted in the OP complete nonsense doesn't it?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Which makes articles like the one posted in the OP complete nonsense doesn't it?


That seems like a non-sequitur. Men and women don't have to be the same to both dislike chores and to want equal effort in the chore department.

I'm reminded of that old joke - it's called a blowJOB for a reason.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Mr The Other said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect that men overestimate how similar they are in realtionships and women overestimate how similar they are. To hear someone say we vary is refreshing!
> ...


Yep

Only that subset who.cling like grim death to Gloria Steinem really defend that junk.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Yep
> 
> Only that subset who.cling like grim death to Gloria Steinem really defend that junk.


No idea who that is. Guessing she's kinda the opposite of a Christina Hoff Sommers type?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I think the takeaway here is that you're not very good at picking men.


Ya think? They all look very good one the outside. The trick is how a person changes after marriage. It's amazing to me, but some people completely change.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Aren't you complaining about men not doing house chores? You only want the good things in marriage, not to wash his socks.


Why should she wash his socks? He's a big boy. There's a washer. Surely he's man enough to put his dirty clothing in it and turn it on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> I have no doubt that there are cases where the lazy spouse was just....lazy and uncaring. However, I do not believe this is the rule. MY anecdotal observations have been that many men give up helping because they don't help the "right" way. And not because they were trying to be awful. It really doesn't matter how towels are folded. It really doesn't matter if you fill the sink or keep the water running to do dishes. It really doesn't matter (though it makes me cringe to say so) what side of the plate the fork is on. It doesn't matter if the socks are knotted or folded in on each other. It's okay if the baby gets both corn AND carrots and not a green jar.
> 
> These are the kinds of things I mean.
> 
> And I'm trying to find where I said not to talk about it.


Your entire point on this thread has been that the reason some, if not most, men do not do chores is because women are *****es and expect their husband's do fold towels the way they want them folded; or do chores their way.

Basically, you think that even in cases like the my situation, it's all my fault that that the ex ignored his children.You clearly think that any woman whose husband does not pull his weight in household chores and child rearing are to blame. You are wrong. It's your opinion. 

I get it. You are superior to all women who experience this because you have a perfect relationship.

Seriously.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Why should she wash his socks? He's a big boy. There's a washer. Surely he's man enough to put his dirty clothing in it and turn it on.


Well, it would be a big waste of water to run a load for a single pair of socks wouldn't it? Surely at some point she is going to do a load of laundry. Assuming she's pulling her weight around the house that is. She can toss his socks in that load.

On a serious note, if you argue about laundry in your relationship, I don't even know what to say to that. Spare for a spouse who does 100% of the chores, Its mind blowing people fight about laundry of all things. You literally throw non breakable items into a bin in no particular fashion, with no care at all in how they are placed. You throw clothes into a bin. You close the lid. You pour in some soap. You press a button. You go sit down and read a book. That is how EASY it is to do laundry. Family of 4 here. It's roughly 10-12 minutes every other day. Can you even consider that work or a chore at that point?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I have no doubt that there are cases where the lazy spouse was just....lazy and uncaring. However, I do not believe this is the rule. MY anecdotal observations have been that many men give up helping because they don't help the "right" way. And not because they were trying to be awful. It really doesn't matter how towels are folded. It really doesn't matter if you fill the sink or keep the water running to do dishes. It really doesn't matter (though it makes me cringe to say so) what side of the plate the fork is on. It doesn't matter if the socks are knotted or folded in on each other. It's okay if the baby gets both corn AND carrots and not a green jar.
> ...


Understand YOU have chosen to read my words that way.

It is not even close to what I meant. I am inside my own head. I know what I meant.

And I am FAAAAAR from perfect.

There really is no reason to be so nasty. I didnt ask for it, and I didn't attack anyone.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Yep
> ...


People call her the mother of modern feminism. You know "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

On laundry:

Growing up, all the family laundry was tossed in according to color, etc. Once we were teens, we did our own. Before that, we helped fold, put up, etc. I did the same with my kids.

Until this thread, I had never heard of hers and his laundry.

Seriously? If I'm washing MY undies I'm not gonna toss his in too? We cant just put all the Jean's in the same load?

How ridiculous and petty! Talk about scorekeeping!


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

Not a score keeping thing...my wife cares about her stuff being washed/dried a certain way, I guess per the instructions or what she has learned through experience...I don't know and I can't remember why she said  and I don't care for most of my stuff. So I will do my clothes if I see that it needs to get done and she hasn't yet got to it, I separate her stuff.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well, it would be a big waste of water to run a load for a single pair of socks wouldn't it? Surely at some point she is going to do a load of laundry. Assuming she's pulling her weight around the house that is. She can toss his socks in that load.
> 
> On a serious note, if you argue about laundry in your relationship, I don't even know what to say to that. Spare for a spouse who does 100% of the chores, Its mind blowing people fight about laundry of all things. You literally throw non breakable items into a bin in no particular fashion, with no care at all in how they are placed. You throw clothes into a bin. You close the lid. You pour in some soap. You press a button. You go sit down and read a book. That is how EASY it is to do laundry. Family of 4 here. It's roughly 10-12 minutes every other day. Can you even consider that work or a chore at that point?



OMG, that's not how it works. I agree laundry is not a big deal, but still that's just wrong. Not that we fight about laundry, because you know we save fights for the dishwasher, not.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

The solution is for the woman to force her husband to be a househusband by withholding sex if he doesn't comply. Then woman goes to work, earns the money, comes home and does nothing. Opens can of beer watching some football.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> On laundry:
> 
> Growing up, all the family laundry was tossed in according to color, etc. Once we were teens, we did our own. Before that, we helped fold, put up, etc. I did the same with my kids.
> 
> ...




I don’t think it’s petty at all. I understand if you basically wear the same type of fabric that doesn’t require “special” temperature and drying cycle. Some people spend a lot of money on clothes and it requires more than just a basic wash. I can understand how it’s easier to just take care of your clothes and I’ll take care of mine. Honestly whatever works for the couple.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> The solution is for the woman to force her husband to be a househusband by withholding sex if he doesn't comply. Then woman goes to work, earns the money, comes home and does nothing. Opens can of beer watching some football.




Or the solution is for the wife to continue doing most of the housework, while working full time and building up resentment for her husband who doesn’t realize how unhappy his wife really is... then the sex can drop off, and when the kids are out of the house the wife can leave them, or have an affair.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Good lord....

I'm not talking about delicates versus work clothes.

I'm talking about: I'm not touching HIS stuff (or her stuff)! That's THEIR job!

THAT is petty.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Good lord....
> 
> I'm not talking about delicates versus work clothes.
> 
> ...




It’s funny how you interpret it so negative. I guess I don’t see it being petty. I see it like hey it’s easier for us to just do our own laundry. Like no big deal, no drama. Whatever floats peoples boats.


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> It’s funny how you interpret it so negative. I guess I don’t see it being petty. I see it like hey it’s easier for us to just do our own laundry. Like no big deal, no drama. Whatever floats peoples boats.


I think it is the thought/intention behind it. Again, the "why would I do his/her laundry?" as opposed to we've deciding to each do our own laundry...

The difference between what is "mine is mine" and what is "mine is ours" is the underlying theme.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Good lord....
> ...


It's because of the negativity of posts: "why should I? He's a big boy!" Things like that.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Not for nothing, but this article absolutely reads to me, like a PSA to not get married.

If I drill down to the brass tacks of what is implied, it is a first world, smart phone, hash tagging, latte sipping, cable news watching account of wanting men and women to be more balanced and alike. Now were we to switch to any culture where roles, behaviors, activities and chores are far more static, defined, if not required, and these kinds of musings are simply immaterial.

I use the word 'dynamic' often. Because I believe everyone ... and all couples fall into them. Patterns of behavior, response, and belief.

When I lived as a single guy for a number of years, I did just fine. Place was clean, laundry got done ... etc.

I have absolutely taken to the dynamic of asking my wife where stuff is. To the point where she has said, "How did you ever find anything, before you met me?"

To which I responded, "Actually was never an issue, because I didn't have someone moving things around on me prompting my need to ask." Honest to God, I actually believe this woman moves stuff around like a squirrel, either because she must ... or to get me to ask her where things are.

I type this response as I'm working from home, to facilitate picking up dear step-daughter after school so that dear wife can take appointments this evening.
My wife has no complaints about my level of contribution ... albeit I accept and understand that she probably still feels there is plenty to complain about. Overall, we still fall on the love and harmony side of the balance sheet. 

My wifes idea of cleaning the house involves an entire weekend, and paying attention to minutia ... which she will complain about. Her predecessor did the same. My level of clean involves weighing opportunity cost. If I want a few hours to myself, or plan to do something other than clean, I adjust. Bring anyone into our home to visibly evaluate my clean, which takes several hours, versus my wifes clean, which is measured in days ... and you will see no difference. So whose do we presume is better or more valid? 

I often wonder now if the goal is to eliminate 'difference', particularly between the sexes. Because if it is, I think that is a really, really, bad idea. If we are just going to complain or debate about it, well then ... carry on. All is well with the world, and that old dynamic has been in place for a long, long, time.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

deejo said:


> not for nothing, but this article absolutely reads to me, like a psa to not get married.
> 
> If i drill down to the brass tacks of what is implied, it is a first world, smart phone, hash tagging, latte sipping, cable news watching account of wanting men and women to be more balanced and alike. Now were we to switch to any culture where roles, behaviors, activities and chores are far more static, defined, if not required, and these kinds of musings are simply immaterial.
> 
> ...


amen


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

cashcratebob said:


> The contention comes from the expectation of when and to what quality. I enjoy (no joke) vacumming and steam cleaning, it is just good for my constitution. But I wouldn't tolerate my wife forcefully telling me to vacuum. She can ask if at some point I wouldn't mind knocking out the carpets. But I am not her slave...nor is she mine. I guess my issue is if it is a request that reeks of right now and because I said so, without any justification...ya no. I don't do that to her...at least I don't think I do.


This is often the issue.

For some reason, the woman thinks of herself as "the boss" and her husband as the "help". The it becomes an issue with the "help" not doing the job exactly the way the "boss" would do it and that usually doesn't go well.

I'm not saying that this is usually the case, but it IS often the case.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> This is often the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you. I think the wife often assumes the role of boss in the House and the husband often assumes the role of boss with cars/house maintenance/yard and sometimes finance.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Your entire point on this thread has been that the reason some, if not most, men do not do chores is because women are *****es and expect their husband's do fold towels the way they want them folded; or do chores their way.
> 
> Basically, you think that even in cases like the my situation, it's all my fault that that the ex ignored his children.You clearly think that any woman whose husband does not pull his weight in household chores and child rearing are to blame. You are wrong. It's your opinion.
> 
> ...


I think anyone even vaguely familiar with your backstory would agree that your ex(es) were the problem, not you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well, it would be a big waste of water to run a load for a single pair of socks wouldn't it? Surely at some point she is going to do a load of laundry. Assuming she's pulling her weight around the house that is. She can toss his socks in that load.
> 
> On a serious note, if you argue about laundry in your relationship, I don't even know what to say to that. Spare for a spouse who does 100% of the chores, Its mind blowing people fight about laundry of all things. You literally throw non breakable items into a bin in no particular fashion, with no care at all in how they are placed. You throw clothes into a bin. You close the lid. You pour in some soap. You press a button. You go sit down and read a book. That is how EASY it is to do laundry. Family of 4 here. It's roughly 10-12 minutes every other day. Can you even consider that work or a chore at that point?


Actually, I do all the laundry in our house (mostly because my wife isn't nearly as efficient as I am!).

Also, my wife often leaves her underwear on the floor. I just pick it up when I notice it, although I usually try not to do that if she's around as I don't want to guilt trip her.

My daughter married a wonderful guy. He leaves his clothes on the floor from time to time. She asked what she should do about it' I told her to think back to the most recent kind and wonderful thing he did for her (and there are a lot of these), then pick up his dirty clothes and put them in the hamper.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> This is often the issue.
> 
> For some reason, the woman thinks of herself as "the boss" and her husband as the "help". The it becomes an issue with the "help" not doing the job exactly the way the "boss" would do it and that usually doesn't go well.
> 
> I'm not saying that this is usually the case, but it IS often the case.


I laughed out loud at this. Because it made me think of this ...











*Editing to add, this is also why aliens are superior. They have evolved beyond worrying about who does the laundry at all. They run around bollicky bare a$$ed (as my dad used to say)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> My wifes idea of cleaning the house involves an entire weekend, and paying attention to minutia ... which she will complain about. Her predecessor did the same. My level of clean involves weighing opportunity cost. If I want a few hours to myself, or plan to do something other than clean, I adjust. Bring anyone into our home to visibly evaluate my clean, which takes several hours, versus my wifes clean, which is measured in days ... and you will see no difference. *So whose do we presume is better or more valid*?


This is the money concept. 

For whatever reason (women having traditionally been "in charge" of the home?), it is automatically assumed that it's the wife's opinion that counts.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> On laundry:
> 
> Growing up, all the family laundry was tossed in according to color, etc. Once we were teens, we did our own. Before that, we helped fold, put up, etc. I did the same with my kids.
> 
> ...


My wife and i usually do our laundry separate, but its mainly because of the difference in the amount of laundry we have. Outside of my uniforms and gear, mine can fill a large duffle bag. Hers can fill two dressers, a walk in closet, a few boxes...

Its just much easier for me to keep track of my own laundry and gear if i set it aside. Especially since we dont typically fold laundry on a regular basis. I dont know if i have ever let my wife iron a single thing of mine. I also do my own pressing, ironing, dry cleaning, etc. 

Most of my laundry just goes into a bin, and MAY occasionally get separated into underwear, shirts, and pants. It actually annoys me when my wife washes my uniform items, because then i have to go searching for them when i need them, and she may not remember where they ended up. Plus, if they ever get left in a bin on the floor for any length of time, a cat is likely to pee in it. Nothing worse than getting ready to change into my duty uniform after PT and realizing its covered in cat pee. 

She used to get annoyed at my requests to not touch my uniform(she was only trying to help, etc), until i needed her to bring me something from home one day. I was wearing a uniform that was soaking wet when she showed up, because i had to hand wash it in the shower and then wear it as it dried. She tried to apologize whenever it happened, until i told her that i rather she just took a shower with her clothes on whenever she let a cat pee on a uniform item and then mixed it with my clean ones, as a show of solidarity. That or just throw my dirty uniforms in a corner/bin and let me take care of them. 


Anyway, back on topic... "chore time" has worked well for us when it comes to splitting up household chores. Basically, we quickly go over what needs to be done, and then EVERYONE in the house gets up and we all work until its done. I could always tell who wasn't being reasonable in the house during chore time. My sister, niece, and both of my parents used to complain about my wife not helping enough around the house, but they all got really passive aggressive when i cut all internet access during chore time. My wife and my sisters husband loved chore time, because it was MUCH easier on them. If someone feels like they are doing the lions share of the work, they will usually be quite happy to have everyone pitching in at the same time. 

Then again, that might work better for situations like ours, where several families are living in the same house. But it still works great now that its just one family. Its MUCH easier to adopt a servant leadership philosophy when EVERYONE works at the same time...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My ex liked to spout the idea that if you did it or made it or 8 it, then you are the one who cleans it up period of course, in practiss, this only applied to everyone else. I was still expected to wash his dishes and his clothing and clean the toilet he pooped in lol. I hate the you did it you clean it idea because it implies that I don't have to do anything for you. The lack of teamwork in that sentiment bothers me. If there is a mass that needs to be cleaned, I am not going to leave it there to rot just because my husband made more of the mis. That is just stupid. What if the mass is the puke all over the floor because my husband is 6. Am I going to leave that on the floor because it is his mess to clean? Selfishness he is an ugly pathetic thing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Not for nothing, but this article absolutely reads to me, like a PSA to not get married.
> 
> If I drill down to the brass tacks of what is implied, it is a first world, smart phone, hash tagging, latte sipping, cable news watching account of wanting men and women to be more balanced and alike. Now were we to switch to any culture where roles, behaviors, activities and chores are far more static, defined, if not required, and these kinds of musings are simply immaterial.
> 
> ...


One of my favorite quotes about marriage, from my father: "Your wife is there to help you through all the problems that you wouldn't have if you weren't married."


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> One of my favorite quotes about marriage, from my father: "Your wife is there to help you through all the problems that you wouldn't have if you weren't married."




Yes that goes both ways and is 100% what marriage is hahaha.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Actually, I do all the laundry in our house (mostly because my wife isn't nearly as efficient as I am!).
> 
> Also, my wife often leaves her underwear on the floor. I just pick it up when I notice it, although I usually try not to do that if she's around as I don't want to guilt trip her.
> 
> My daughter married a wonderful guy. He leaves his clothes on the floor from time to time. She asked what she should do about it' I told her to think back to the most recent kind and wonderful thing he did for her (and there are a lot of these), then pick up his dirty clothes and put them in the hamper.


All the laundry? Omg, I would file for divorce! :surprise:


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> All the laundry? Omg, I would file for divorce! :surprise:




Hahaha I did all the laundry in my first marriage and I will never do it again. I’m leaning towards everyone does their own if I ever get remarried. 

I wonder if the household chores change after marriage, or after moving in together?


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

Deejo said:


> Not for nothing, but this article absolutely reads to me, like a PSA to not get married.
> 
> If I drill down to the brass tacks of what is implied, it is a first world, smart phone, hash tagging, latte sipping, cable news watching account of wanting men and women to be more balanced and alike. Now were we to switch to any culture where roles, behaviors, activities and chores are far more static, defined, if not required, and these kinds of musings are simply immaterial.
> 
> ...


Preach it!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I was seeing a lady in the USA, who had had a couple of fairly serious relationships only. 

We saw this clip;





She was surprised I laughed at it, as I was perfectly capable of keeping a place clean and generally kept my place to a higher standard than she did hers. I was surprised by this, as I regarded it as a comedy trope, just as a woman does not become horrible as soon as her daughter marries and she becomes a Mother-in-law.

Where we were both naive is that I did not realise that a decent number of men really are that crap (but I will not have first hand experience, as female housemates will resent housework more than make ones in my experience), and she heard women complaining how crap their men were and how super and hard working they were and had taken it for truth (as her boyfriends had actually been crap).


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Hahaha I did all the laundry in my first marriage and I will never do it again. I’m leaning towards everyone does their own if I ever get remarried.
> 
> I wonder if the household chores change after marriage, or after moving in together?


idk what is "normal" but we were together nearly 7 years before marriage. So I probably can't tell you. I guess we figured this out so long ago I can't fathom the issues. You notice you have 30 minutes down time, take 10 and do something real quick. Spend the other 20 relaxing or whatever. Doesn't matter what it is. We are all the same family.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> > Hahaha I did all the laundry in my first marriage and I will never do it again. I’m leaning towards everyone does their own if I ever get remarried.
> ...


Yep

As a side note, I don't make decision about how to treat my husband based on my last marriage because I don't believe in punishing him for some other man's issues.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)




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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Yep
> 
> As a side note, I don't make decision about how to treat my husband based on my last marriage because I don't believe in punishing him for some other man's issues.




Of course. I don’t think having my “husband” do his own laundry is punishment. I know how I am and what bothers me so I know what things to nip in the butt early and how I shouldn’t try to be perfect and do everything on my own.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

All I know is if my husband thought he needed to nip something about me in the Bud, we wouldn't have ever gotten married.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> Of course. I don’t think having my “husband” do his own laundry is punishment. I know how I am and what bothers me so I know what things to nip in the butt early and how I shouldn’t try to be perfect and do everything on my own.


my wife tried to nip a few things in the bud when it came to the way i did stuff early on in our marriage. it didnt work out too well for her.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> All I know is if my husband thought he needed to nip something about me in the Bud, we wouldn't have ever gotten married.




I wouldn’t marry someone If my nipping doesn’t work.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Yep
> ...


Maybe marriage isn't for you. Not meaning to be snide, but if you feel the need to jump ship if chores are 60/40 instead of 50/50, save the lawyer fees and stay single. Most guys I know won't protest too much to stay unmarried.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > All I know is if my husband thought he needed to nip something about me in the Bud, we wouldn't have ever gotten married.
> ...


I am not at all surprised.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Deleted for repetitiveness*


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I wouldn’t marry someone If my nipping doesn’t work.


 I hope you like cats, lots of cats.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I suggest women are under huge social pressure to be righteous. Struggling to cope with doing everything and having a lazy spouse with this, so you will hear a lot of it. Particularly if it is true, but far from only.

I suggest men are under huge social pressure to be capable and strong. Struggling to cope with doing everything and having a lazy spouse with this does not fit with this, so you often have to be close friends on go on a forum like TAM to hear about it.

Meamwhile, if someone says "the kids are constantly demanding, my spouse has endless patience but it just annoys me!", it is going to sound ten time worse from a woman.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

All I know is that my FIL used to make fun of our domestic chores segregation (ie-there was none) He believed the cooking and cleaning was women's work. Sorry, but I would like to have sex on an ongoing basis, and I would prefer that my wife not be exhausted from working a full time job, then coming home to clean up both our messes. Does not seem to be a reasonable thing to ask. So. I do my own laundry. If she cooks, I clean up, and vice versa. Guys, I am a gourmet cook. I love to bang around my pots and pans. Nothing spurs a woman on to great sex like a five star dinner before or after sex. It used to be my primary form of seduction. I had a gf's mom call me for one of my recipes. Her and her hubby had a late life child, and I wonder if it wasn't my recipe that did the deed. When we make a party, we have the best time in the kitchen, doing the cooking jointly. We have a cleaning crew that comes by every three weeks, and I am responsible for keeping my man-cave tidy, and free of cigar butts. I run an air purifier in there, and regularly clean every surface down there. (Used to be my son and my place to watch superhero stuff on TV, now my wife and I have our cocktail hour down there. Just us two, a drink or soft drink, a cigar, and decompression. I think that is why we have been married as long as we have. We decompress with one another five days a week)


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Taxman said:


> All I know is that my FIL used to make fun of our domestic chores segregation (ie-there was none) He believed the cooking and cleaning was women's work. Sorry, but I would like to have sex on an ongoing basis, and I would prefer that my wife not be exhausted from working a full time job, then coming home to clean up both our messes. Does not seem to be a reasonable thing to ask. So. I do my own laundry. If she cooks, I clean up, and vice versa. Guys, I am a gourmet cook. I love to bang around my pots and pans. Nothing spurs a woman on to great sex like a five star dinner before or after sex. It used to be my primary form of seduction. I had a gf's mom call me for one of my recipes. Her and her hubby had a late life child, and I wonder if it wasn't my recipe that did the deed. When we make a party, we have the best time in the kitchen, doing the cooking jointly. We have a cleaning crew that comes by every three weeks, and I am responsible for keeping my man-cave tidy, and free of cigar butts. I run an air purifier in there, and regularly clean every surface down there. (Used to be my son and my place to watch superhero stuff on TV, now my wife and I have our cocktail hour down there. Just us two, a drink or soft drink, a cigar, and decompression. I think that is why we have been married as long as we have. We decompress with one another five days a week)


Congratulations on not abusing your wife.

To fill you in on this thread and save your from having to read any of it, the discussion is on the roles. That both should contribute is so obvious and that it is borderline offensive.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I have never gotten some guys sitting around like a bump on a log while their wife works a full day, then spends the evening cleaning up. Well I guess it’s possible if you really never want sex ever again. My mom put it this way; Want your wife to be happy? Want a long life? Want peace and harmony? Then get off your fat ass and pitch in!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Taxman said:


> I have never gotten some guys sitting around like a bump on a log while their wife works a full day, then spends the evening cleaning up. Well I guess it’s possible if you really never want sex ever again. My mom put it this way; Want your wife to be happy? Want a long life? Want peace and harmony? Then get off your fat ass and pitch in!


Of course. 

Lazing while your wife works is abusive.

It varies a lot by country, in Scandinavia and the UK, surveys of housework suggest that men and women who are middle aged or younger split it evenly unless the wife is a stay at home wife. 

The big difference is surveys conducted by asking women, in Scandinavia they say they it is fairly even and the UK the woman will tend to say she works all day while the man lazes. In the latter case, a noble example of a man being amazing because he helps suits the narrative, it suits the woman's story and the individual man who can think he is amazing. 

On an emotional level it is very true, but less so on a physically manifest level.

The USA seems to between the extremes.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

I easily did my share of the housework and then some.

XW never cleaned the bathroom *once *in *5 1/2 years of marriage*. We either had a housekeeper do it, or I would do it when I finally got sick of seeing piss on the toilet seat, black mold in the shower, soap scum in the sinks, etc.

She wasn't nice about this either; it wasn't like an arrangement that I'd clean that, and she'd clean other things. she just flat out refused to clean the bathroom, no matter if she was working at the time or not (for long stretches of our marriage she was a stay at home wife then mom). 

She seemed to have an attitude about housework being below her; I gathered from bits and pieces that her mom coddled her and never let her do housework around the house growing up. she also grew up poor, in a poor country, and so had some sort of twisted thinking that she wasn't going to be anybody's "servant" or something, even her husband/kids.

One of many reasons she's now my XW!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I feel I should apologize for any bad and inadequate communication skills I exhibited in this thread that may have caused misunderstanding or assumptions. It was not my intention, and I'd like it to keep from escalating.

I apologize for not being clearer and writing in such a way that is might have been received as me blaming a gender.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

house work inequality?

Give.Me.A.Break.

you know how much "yard work" inequality I suffered? cant say the XW ever touched the law mower ONCE. or washed cars, or handled all sorts of other things that falls under the realm of "chores" but isn't labeled as housework.

think I'll start buying the NYT and quit buying toilet paper.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

x598 said:


> house work inequality?
> 
> Give.Me.A.Break.
> 
> ...


Growing up, my mom did pretty much all the "inside" stuff and my dad did all the "outside" stuff, as well as the cars. It worked well for them, and it works great for H and me. I could see how this might not fly if you lived in an apartment or a condo or patio home with a yard service. I can also see how it wouldn't work if you lived a 4 acres of landscaping and had a maid lol


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Growing up, my mom did pretty much all the "inside" stuff and my dad did all the "outside" stuff, as well as the cars. It worked well for them, and it works great for H and me. I could see how this might not fly if you lived in an apartment or a condo or patio home with a yard service. I can also see how it wouldn't work if you lived a 4 acres of landscaping and had a maid lol


seems to me that modern society has this solved by simply hiring people to do anything and everything nowadays.

saw a commercial just last night for a home grocery delivery service where they actually come IN you house and put the groceries away and video it for you to watch. my god we can't even buy our own groceries anymore.


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