# Talking about the affair



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Talking through the issues and emotions (initially the confusion, shock, and disbelief, and later how to manage and make sense of the situation and process), primarily with good friends, has been critical therapy for me. I simply would not have made it through the Spring without the consult, advice, and support of my best friends. I have also talked to a few friends who have been through infidelity (including one cheating spouse), attempted reconciliation, and divorce. It has been very helpful and informative, and has at times provided some much needed comfort and perspective.

About a week ago, a friend who is more a friend of my wife had reached out to me talk about what was going on. At the end of the conversation he mentioned another guy the community with 4 young kids who had just learned that his wife was in a PA with her triathalon trainer. He thought I would know the guy because we are both lawyers and have some activities in common, but I did not.

That same night my wife and kids were away visiting her family and I was at the bar of a nearby restaurant having a burger (nice waterfront bar next door to my house and I was not in a mood to cook) and watching the baseball game while the couple next me talked about the awful situation going on with this guy’s brother. I recognized the situation as the one my wife’s friend had described to me a few hours earlier, and after a while I wrote my cell phone number on a napkin, slid it over to the guy, apologized for overhearing, and said that I thought I might know a bit about what his brother was going through, might know some resources that he might find helpful, and that he should feel free to call me if he wanted. The brother asked me to join them and as they described the situation I mentioned that I heard something about it from a friend. They immediately guessed the friend and said yes, that friend had told us about your situation. We did not talk about my situation, but apparently they had already gathered some of it.

This couple and the brother all live two towns away, but the towns are similar bedroom communities around the same city and socially all pretty interconnected. Turns out the wife is good friends with several of my wife’s good friends and a bit of talker. So now my wife is furious. 

Thoughts on talking about the affair? It has never been my intention to embarrass my wife, I understand that this is very upsetting to her, and I could certainly have been more discrete. My wife has also been upset about my talking with good friends and family members. I do not share her embarrassment. Yes, we are differently situated around the issue, but even if were not, I do not think I would share her level embarrassment.

I found this resource site before I found TAM and found a lot of it helpful, though representative of the author’s point of view only, which may be a minority view on several issues: DearPeggy.com - Breaking the Code of Secrecy about Extramarital Affairs


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

I wish I would've talked to someone, especially in the first couple of weeks. I did not. Not because I wanted to protect my H. In fact, part of me wishes EVERYONE knew what he did! He would've been that much more humiliated and embarrassed of how much he hurt me. 

But I didn't tell anyone because I wanted to protect myself, and the "picture" of our marriage. We've been married for 17, together for 22 (23 next month). People have always looked up to us as a great example of how a couple can work through ups and downs, and that two people in fact CAN be happily married for so long. Basically, it's not his lie that I want to hide; Its "our lie". Our happy, healthy thriving marriage. (sigh).

But, in retrospect, I wish I would've confided in someone. Whether it be a family member or a friend - or even HERE to talk, to get support, and help me through my thoughts. I think maybe I would've reacted to certain situations a lot better if I had someone to just spill my guts out to, rather than to only my H. When the only person you're talking about it to is the person that betrayed you, it can become quite "crazy". 

I will probably never tell anyone, unless I decide that it's all too much and decide to walk away. But if I stay, I will likely keep it secret. But it's for me and the way I want for our marriage to be perceived. It's selfish of me, but I guess it works out fine for him. 

Again...Sigh.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes. Perception, appearance, and image are quite important to my wife too, and we project a nice image. That, I think, is a lot of it. Interestingly, Peggy Vaughn makes a fair amount of the humiliation of the BS. I have not felt that.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Sounds like you have a small, tight community there Harken.

Looking at my profile, you can see the city I live near and realize my situation is quite different. My bedroom commumity is larger than many cities by itself. 

Anyway, it took me a few days, but I'll never forget calling my good friend (who lives 1000 miles away) to tell him about my DDay. We secured a time to talk about something important, and I left the house, went to a park and called him. Talked for about 45 minutes. About 2-3 weeks later I emailed two of our other mutual friends about it (copying original friend) to bring them up to speed. The phone call was way more therapeutic.

About another 2 weeks later I verbally told one more friend. I kind of regret telling that person now though. He was a good listener at the time, but I now don't see/talk to him as much as I did before. And part of me wonders if it's because he knows what happened.

My W told three of her girlfriends about 1-2 weeks after DDay. Then about 2 weeks later told another couple of people, since they were all on vacation together with the friends she already told. None of our family knows.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Sounds like you have a small, tight community there Harken.


We do. That is part of the picture. Gabriel, it seems your wife was pretty up front with you from the time of your discovery. I was not able to talk to my wife about her affair, despite my best efforts. Instead I was presented with an unreality of lies, implausible denial, and ongoing deception. Side-stepping, minimization, counterattacks, gaslighting, you name it. For months. While I pretty much fell apart in front of her in shock and confusion. I have always felt that I would not have needed to talk to friends if I could have talked to her. But they were there for me, and she was not.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Talking through the issues and emotions (initially the confusion, shock, and disbelief, and later how to manage and make sense of the situation and process), primarily with good friends, has been critical therapy for me. I simply would not have made it through the Spring without the consult, advice, and support of my best friends. I have also talked to a few friends who have been through infidelity (including one cheating spouse), attempted reconciliation, and divorce. It has been very helpful and informative, and has at times provided some much needed comfort and perspective.
> 
> About a week ago, a friend who is more a friend of my wife had reached out to me talk about what was going on. At the end of the conversation he mentioned another guy the community with 4 young kids who had just learned that his wife was in a PA with her triathalon trainer. He thought I would know the guy because we are both lawyers and have some activities in common, but I did not.
> 
> ...


Harken:

That's an excellent article. Thank you for the link. 

Yes, the dishonesty involved in infidelity is the worst part. 

Having mutual friends tell you what a great person your spouse is after you just learned they had an affair but have kept it secret is also extremely damaging to the wellbeing of the BS, IMO.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Bride of Frank said:


> I am just like SoSadLady that way. None of my family or close friends knows. I didn't want it to become the topic of gossip far flung to people I don't even speak to, like Harken at the bar! How humiliating that would be for me.


That is another perspective, and fair. Sounds like your husband's affair ended. I am pretty sure that my wife's would not have and and that I probably would not have come to know the truth had I not talked to friends and gained a much needed reality check.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

As part of R in addition to full transparency. The WS mst understand and accept that the BS has the enteral right and privilege to speak of the affair to anyone they choose. Anyone and forever.

That's part of exposure and I believe it's an important part of healing. It takes away the secrecy and doesn't burden the BS with being part of the lies and betrayal inflicted upon them.

I'm not ever suggesting using it as a weapon , but instead it is always clinically free game and an open topic.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> We do. That is part of the picture. Gabriel, it seems your wife was pretty up front with you from the time of your discovery. I was not able to talk to my wife about her affair, despite my best efforts. Instead I was presented with an unreality of lies, implausible denial, and ongoing deception. Side-stepping, minimization, counterattacks, gaslighting, you name it. For months. While I pretty much fell apart in front of her in shock and confusion. I have always felt that I would not have needed to talk to friends if I could have talked to her. But they were there for me, and she was not.


Eh, sort of. My wife lied to me plenty in those first 3-4 weeks after DDay.

For example, I had two DDays. After claiming NC for about 3 weeks, she began texting him again and I had to call my cell carrier to find out. Then, I let her say her last "goodbye" text to him. Then, I saw she kept this text and the OM's response on her phone a week later. I asked her if she still had this on her phone. Said no she didn't. Then I shoved the phone in her face. That was the last lie I caught. Don't think there have been more, but who knows.

As far as bringing it up - she was reasonably open to this, but I did get the "you'll always be punishing me" line from her a couple of times.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> As part of R in addition to full transparency. The WS mst understand and accept that the BS has the enteral right and privilege to speak of the affair to anyone they choose. Anyone and forever.
> 
> That's part of exposure and I believe it's an important part of healing. It takes away the secrecy and doesn't burden the BS with being part of the lies and betrayal inflicted upon them.
> 
> I'm not ever suggesting using it as a weapon , but instead it is always clinically free game and an open topic.


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Having someone to talk to would have helped me back then.

I had no one to talk to._* I felt so alone, lonely and isolated.*_

When my wife was having her affair we had a number of functions we had to attend together. Someone actually praised us as being: "the perfect, loving couple." My wife smiled, graciously, I just felt like I was cracking up, but somehow held myself together. 

I felt it important to put a brave face on it, to pretend that everything was normal.

Nobody knew what was going on. I think my wife's mother suspected, but I am not sure. She hated the OM. With good reason, she figured him as a womaniser.

You know, just remembered, I never even told my AP in my stupid revenge affair about the fact that my wife had cheated on me. I was too loyal to do that, so decided not to.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Bride of Frank said:


> I didn't want it to become the topic of gossip far flung to people I don't even speak to, like Harken at the bar!


I understand this, but myself could not give a sh!t about the gossip. Gossip seems to me to be almost by definition voyeuristic, sensationalist, and hypocritical. I am not going to be bothered by the petty opinions and tinny reprovals of gossip mongers. Just tonight at dinner my wife and I were briefly joined by my friend (let's call him Matt) alluded to above who cheated and whom I still recognize as a good guy who has put himself in a difficult situation. My wife has been suspicious of my compassion for and friendship with Matt and has not understood how I can be friends with Matt and at the same time upset with her and unsure of how to find the way forward in our relationship. I think tonight helped. Matt has been shunned by a few in the community, including at least one shared friend -I expect this will be temporary and suspect it is mostly for the shared friend to maintain peace with his own wife who is best friends with Matt's STBX. I get it but it hasn't made sense to me. There is a fair amount of picking sides going on fueled it seems by his STBX’s early decision to go to war over this and to enlist as many partisan allies by whatever means possible. Neither AllMessedUp nor I have any inclination to do that. We love each other and recognize that, whatever we do, we will have to work it out together as collaboratively as possible. Still, my continuing friendship with Matt hasn't made sense to my wife. But it is plain to me that he is still the same good guy. Just things have gotten messier, he has made them messier, and he is struggling with that too. Tonight, when he came by, he was the same Matt. Sincere, interested, genuine, mostly selfless, and concerned. I enjoyed and was grateful for his brief company and I think AllMessedUp did and was too.

In the end, I don't think some people knowing is something to be avoided at all cost and probably not so terrible a thing and big a deal as some may worry. I don't think it changes in any net negative fashion the way our friends see us or lessens their opinions of us. They just see some more complexity and pain, and good friends respond to that with empathy and compassion.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

I was able to talk to my GP about it. This was good for several reasons. One I needed to talk to someone that wasn't going to talk to anyone (Doctors don't) and second she gave me some meds for anxiety that made life "doable" and the name of a local support group (BAN) that is composed of people who have been cheated on. Hearing others talk about it helped. Being able to stammer out my problems helped as well. Its difficult choosing who you speak to but I think its good advice to say this. You can't "untell" anyone or control who and what they say. Sorry your here dealing with this.


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## ToriTorrey (Sep 5, 2012)

Looking at my profile, you can see the city I live near and realize my situation is quite different.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't mean to make a spectacle of my relationship but I have told a few people what is going on between me and my WS. Those people include my sister and my aunt who live far away, one good friend and also my WS's family.

I felt my WS's family needed to know for reason of exposure. So far, I have been satisfied with that decision.

I'm not sure if I will regret doing so in the future but the way I see it now, I have nothing to hide and I didn't do anything wrong - he did so I have no reason to feel ashamed or embarrassed having done so. 

Also, the people I have told are unlikely to gossip about me. My good friend dealt with her husband's infidelity ten years ago so understands/supports me whatever the outcome. 

So far telling them and finding this site has been very helpful to me. If I didn't get the emotional support from them I'm not sure I would have been able to handle things as well as I feel I have been.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I guess I would refer back to the Peggy Vaughn piece and Shaggy's comment above. If you are talking to do damage, that is not good. If you are talking to heal, I think it is. I offered myself to the guy's brother at the bar because from what I have heard he is struggling largely alone and without a lot of guidance, and I have come to feel a kinship with the betrayed. I did not tell my story at the bar. That was more a connect the dots exercise on their part. 

I'd like to combat the prevalent view of an affair as a dirty little secret. If that is how you view it, that is what it will remain and there will be less understanding, opportunity for healing and growth, and possibly prevention or avoidance.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

I didn't talk about it to anyone for years, and then only when I became so desperate that I consulted a therapist. My wife and I never really discussed it in detail. Recently she mentioned dealing w/ old garbage. I've come a long way in dealing w/ the issues involved in her behavior. At this point, I tend to feel that her demons are her own to deal with, and I really don't want to resurrect the pain that I went through for several years with no help from her.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I guess I would refer back to the Peggy Vaughn piece and Shaggy's comment above. If you are talking to do damage, that is not good. If you are talking to heal, I think it is. I offered myself to the guy's brother at the bar because from what I have heard he is struggling largely alone and without a lot of guidance, and I have come to feel a kinship with the betrayed. I did not tell my story at the bar. That was more a connect the dots exercise on their part.
> 
> I'd like to combat the prevalent view of an affair as a dirty little secret. If that is how you view it, that is what it will remain and there will be less understanding, opportunity for healing and growth, and possibly prevention or avoidance.


I will have to take issue with my husband's representation that he is telling people to heal, not to do damage. That doesn't ring true for the words he spit at me at a local establishment, when he said, "Why don't you go call your boyfriend" then turned to the woman sitting in a chair next to us (about one foot away) and said, yes, I said her boyfriend. He didn't know her, but I did, and turns out she is a teacher at our elementary school where three of our four daughters attend. And this occurred three weeks after I had sat down and told Harken all the details of the discussions I had via phone and text with my AP and two full months after I had gone completely no contact with AP. And I don't believe he was trying to heal the times he has shouted at me, many times outside, including in front of our children and in his parents' neighborhood where we have friends and you can hear everything, "I'm not the one who had an AFFAIR - you did!" Or the time he said directly to our 10 year old daughter, "Your mom had an affair, yes an affair - go ask your friends what that means. Your mom is a co-ksucker, yes, a co-ksucker." Or the times he has screamed in front of all four of our children (ages 10, 8, 5 and 3) - you did this - you had the affair!" So I think his sharing goes much farther than healing. I think he is being dishonest with himself as to at least a great part of his intent.

I've already received calls from two friends following last week's note passing and subsequent sit down/talk at the bar with the two individuals who he had never met before. Turns out they go to the same ski resort as we do every weekend in the winter. And the woman's parents live across the street from Harken's parents (where we lived for almost 6 months during out renovation and a mile down the road from our house). The woman, who I've skied with, is known as quite a gossip and had been on the phone calling folks to find out the details of what is happening in our marriage. And they've started calling me. My thought is how does this help our reconciliation? Honestly, I'm not sure we are truly trying to reconcile, as there hasn't been a day and virtually no conversation when the affair is not raised, he is angry and yelling at me constantly, has had refused to attend marriage counseling until he finally consented to going with me to an appt last week (I had scheduled as an IC session, asked if he would be willing to join, he said yes, but regretted it the next day and made it extremely clear while there he didn't want to be there). 

Anyway, I understand Harken telling and continuing to share with the two very good friends he mentioned, as they have been solid friends and pillars of comfort to him. And I have no issues at all with him hanging out with the friend who had a PA and is in the midst of divorce proceedings (I have mentioned to Harken that I find it interesting that he enjoys spending time with that friend so much, yet gets sick to his stomach around me - he did have a fair response, "He wasn't unfaithful to me." Yet Harken has been reaching out to additional people over the past two weeks "for perspective" as he puts it. He said he doesn't trust his own judgment, since he has been wrong so many times, so he is asking others if they think he should stay in the marriage. This is more than 7 weeks since he learned all the details and three months since contact was ended completely. Several of these people don't know us as a couple well if at all, yet he is looking for their perspective. He reached out to my dad to ask for perspective - I understand the advice of contacting family if it's being done to stop the affair behavior, but this occurred just last week. And he has asked his brother (who lives afar, we rarely see or talk to and knows virtually nothing about us as a couple), another friend from his past who has gone through a divorce (who doesn't know me at all), a very good friend of mine, etc. He has also shared the affair information with his law partner as well as an attorney we both know in town to seek her advice as to whether he could legally get copies of the texts. All in our very small community (small town of 10,000 next to a "big town" of 66,000 people). Plus several joint friends of ours - just seems like the circle keeps growing and growing. I get that Shaggy and others feel this is all good, but I'm not sure how it helps us at this point in our "reconciliation."


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I will have to take issue with my husband's representation that he is telling people to heal, not to do damage. That doesn't ring true for the words he spit at me at a local establishment, when he said, "Why don't you go call your boyfriend" then turned to the woman sitting in a chair next to us (about one foot away) and said, yes, I said her boyfriend. He didn't know her, but I did, and turns out she is a teacher at our elementary school where three of our four daughters attend. And this occurred three weeks after I had sat down and told Harken all the details of the discussions I had via phone and text with my AP and two full months after I had gone completely no contact with AP. And I don't believe he was trying to heal the times he has shouted at me, many times outside, including in front of our children and in his parents' neighborhood where we have friends and you can hear everything, "I'm not the one who had an AFFAIR - you did!" Or the time he said directly to our 10 year old daughter, "Your mom had an affair, yes an affair - go ask your friends what that means. Your mom is a co-ksucker, yes, a co-ksucker." Or the times he has screamed in front of all four of our children (ages 10, 8, 5 and 3) - you did this - you had the affair!" So I think his sharing goes much farther than healing. I think he is being dishonest with himself as to at least a great part of his intent.
> 
> I've already received calls from two friends following last week's note passing and subsequent sit down/talk at the bar with the two individuals who he had never met before. Turns out they go to the same ski resort as we do every weekend in the winter. And the woman's parents live across the street from Harken's parents (where we lived for almost 6 months during out renovation and a mile down the road from our house). The woman, who I've skied with, is known as quite a gossip and had been on the phone calling folks to find out the details of what is happening in our marriage. And they've started calling me. My thought is how does this help our reconciliation? Honestly, I'm not sure we are truly trying to reconcile, as there hasn't been a day and virtually no conversation when the affair is not raised, he is angry and yelling at me constantly, has had refused to attend marriage counseling until he finally consented to going with me to an appt last week (I had scheduled as an IC session, asked if he would be willing to join, he said yes, but regretted it the next day and made it extremely clear while there he didn't want to be there).
> 
> Anyway, I understand Harken telling and continuing to share with the two very good friends he mentioned, as they have been solid friends and pillars of comfort to him. And I have no issues at all with him hanging out with the friend who had a PA and is in the midst of divorce proceedings (I have mentioned to Harken that I find it interesting that he enjoys spending time with that friend so much, yet gets sick to his stomach around me - he did have a fair response, "He wasn't unfaithful to me." Yet Harken has been reaching out to additional people over the past two weeks "for perspective" as he puts it. He said he doesn't trust his own judgment, since he has been wrong so many times, so he is asking others if they think he should stay in the marriage. This is more than 7 weeks since he learned all the details and three months since contact was ended completely. Several of these people don't know us as a couple well if at all, yet he is looking for their perspective. He reached out to my dad to ask for perspective - I understand the advice of contacting family if it's being done to stop the affair behavior, but this occurred just last week. And he has asked his brother (who lives afar, we rarely see or talk to and knows virtually nothing about us as a couple), another friend from his past who has gone through a divorce (who doesn't know me at all), a very good friend of mine, etc. He has also shared the affair information with his law partner as well as an attorney we both know in town to seek her advice as to whether he could legally get copies of the texts. All in our very small community (small town of 10,000 next to a "big town" of 66,000 people). Plus several joint friends of ours - just seems like the circle keeps growing and growing. I get that Shaggy and others feel this is all good, but I'm not sure how it helps us at this point in our "reconciliation."


My...God??? You mean a betrayed spouse may be so hurt and horrified that they get so angry they may say something bad about their WS? Even in public? 

I didn't mean the above point in a sarcastic, hurtful way, just to point out that this is proof that our actions have consequences. Which we might not foresee.

Whilst blurting such stuff out might not be 'right' it is certainly understandable. 

I never mentioned my wife's affair to anyone. Maybe if I had, I would not have had my idiotic revenge affair?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Harken Banks said:


> Thoughts on talking about the affair? It has never been my intention to embarrass my wife, I understand that this is very upsetting to her, and I could certainly have been more discrete. My wife has also been upset about my talking with good friends and family members. I do not share her embarrassment. Yes, we are differently situated around the issue, but even if were not, I do not think I would share her level embarrassment.
> 
> I found this resource site before I found TAM and found a lot of it helpful, though representative of the author’s point of view only, which may be a minority view on several issues: DearPeggy.com - Breaking the Code of Secrecy about Extramarital Affairs


Well Harken, as you know you and I do not always entirely see eye-to-eye and that's cool. But here's my thought, as someone who is a former Disloyal Spouse. To put it in a nutshell, I can't support the "be more discreet" position because it's not as if you are broadcasting it from the rooftops or intentionally informing others spitefully. You are reaching out and helping others who are hurting by giving them resources that helped you when YOU were in that position. 

To be blunt, the thing that is embarrassing is how she behaved. I'm not being a "meanie" there but what I mean is that you are being honest and open with a fellow human being, you are sharing your own experience and what helped you...and if all along her actions and choices had been to be a faithful spouse, then your reaching out and sharing would not embarrass her! She'd probably be proud!! 

So you know how Disloyals say "HOW COULD YOU drag my name through the mud like that!!??" when you expose the affair? It's somewhat similar here. The thing that is actually causing her the embarrassment is not your "indiscretion" helping a fellow human being...but her "indiscreet" behavior being unfaithful. 

Now I will say that it really is embarrassing to be a former Disloyal and realize that you behaved so ... well poorly! You feel like crawling in a hole! But to my mind, the price of making the choices I made is that now-and-then I have to be embarrassed when I tell the truth to others, because ... well I acted foolishly!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Geez. AllMessedUp, I actually see your point of view on this one. It's not appropriate to be screaming about the affair in public and especially not in front of the kids. Clearly that is aimed to hurt, not heal.

Harken, did you really tell your daughter that your wife was a c*cks*cker, and ask her to ask her friends what an affair means?


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> As part of R in addition to full transparency. The WS mst understand and accept that the BS has the enteral right and privilege to speak of the affair to anyone they choose. Anyone and forever.
> 
> That's part of exposure and I believe it's an important part of healing. It takes away the secrecy and doesn't burden the BS with being part of the lies and betrayal inflicted upon them.
> 
> I'm not ever suggesting using it as a weapon , but instead it is always clinically free game and an open topic.


I totally agree with this post. My H told nobody and had spoken to nobody about his A. I needed support. I told all my close friends and their Hs, I told my mum and stepdad and my sister and step brother and his wife. I also told a few work colleagues. It would have been 100 times worse if I hadn't had support from these people.

When i thought my H wasn't coming home I started telling a few more people, one or 2 neighbours and 2 parents of my daughters friends. I'd only just done that when we decided to R.
H was very embarrassed the first time we got together with all our friends and he put off seeing my family for a while. I have no regret in telling and talking. This wasn't my doing, it was his and I did what was best for me and the kids. He wasn't to happy that my closest friends knew all the details but my reaction? Too bab! You shouldn't have cheated and put me through hell!

To all BSs, you can't possibly go through infidelity alone. You need to talk to someone. It really does help to share what you are going through!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Hi Harken, first of all I think that you shouldn't consider yourself indiscreet, unless it has been under some circumstances.
First of all, you are as much a part of the story as your spouse. I can understand her reaction to be upset because none would like to be shown under blameful light, but if it's something you need to do, it would be harmful for your reconciliation if you didn't.
Just keep in mind that not everybody is understanding, and not everybody needs to know about the affair. What's great about this forum is that you can sort out the people that are here to help from the ones who are just here to feel better (aka using you), so you may consider focusing on this forum and your counseling more than strangers or acquaintences. This is as much for your own sake as it is for your wife's and relationship's.

Now, about the circumstances. If you really feel deep down that the good coming out of telling people is getting even at your wife, shifting a part of humiliation on her or gathering potential witnesses that would call you right at the moment they see something suspicious about her, than I believe that it's an unhealthy way to deal with the affair. So are you telling people to get support or to get sides ? Don't answer this question. Just think about it because the answer may define your future relationship.

I saw that you dealt with a spouse that couldn't understand your hurt. I know how it feels and I know how much it is suffocating and devastating. The only person that you chose to be your soulmate can't help you through the toughest moment that happened to you. (A moment that was her doing).
But please understand that cheating was her decision, and staying (not leaving) was yours.
There were consequences to her cheating, and there are to your staying.
She has no right to force a way on how to deal with what she decided to do, while you have no right to force a way on how to deal with what you decided to do.

I know how much it's heart crushing to not get the reaction you deserve from the person that you love but that's how life it is.
I hope this post was of help to you.

*EDIT:* Wow, I just read what AllMessedUp wrote. I understood she's your wife. I do believe she has to accept your reaction the way it is, since she chose to stick with you but it seems to me that it's more understanding than you let me understand.(It's probably my fault for not understanding, though)
What you are doing to your kids is plain wrong. You can't tell your children their mom is a coc*sucker, what's wrong with you ? You chose your spouse, they didn't choose their mother. You can have an infinite amount of partners, they only have one mother. Nothing that can be done to you could justify you crushing the image of their mother in their eyes. Think about what that would do to their self-esteem.
Stop making your children pay for a grown-up f*** up.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp, thank you for posting. Sincerely. No snark or sarcasm. Thank you. That said, I think some of these points take us a bit off topic. Hopefully without jacking my own thread, I will respond to a few.



AllMessedUp said:


> I will have to take issue with my husband's representation that he is telling people to heal, not to do damage. That doesn't ring true for the words he spit at me at a local establishment, when he said, "Why don't you go call your boyfriend" then turned to the woman sitting in a chair next to us (about one foot away) and said, yes, I said her boyfriend. He didn't know her, but I did, and turns out she is a teacher at our elementary school where three of our four daughters attend. And this occurred three weeks after I had sat down and told Harken all the details of the discussions I had via phone and text with my AP and two full months after I had gone completely no contact with AP. And I don't believe he was trying to heal the times he has shouted at me, many times outside, including in front of our children and in his parents' neighborhood where we have friends and you can hear everything, "I'm not the one who had an AFFAIR - you did!" Or the time he said directly to our 10 year old daughter, "Your mom had an affair, yes an affair - go ask your friends what that means. Your mom is a co-ksucker, yes, a co-ksucker." Or the times he has screamed in front of all four of our children (ages 10, 8, 5 and 3) - you did this - you had the affair!" So I think his sharing goes much farther than healing. I think he is being dishonest with himself as to at least a great part of his intent.


Not some of my finer moments. Some of them regrettable to be sure, the ugly arguments in front of the children in particular. What is omitted and what will not be aired by me in this forum are the way over the line and no less damaging, reckless, and inappropriate things AMU has screamed at me repeatedly in front of the kids, some of them involving an event that occured 26 years ago with Old GF. Some even predating this affair stuff. 'Nuff said. In any event, this kind of "talk" is not excusable but occurred in the aftermath of the ugliest facts of the affair emerging 5 months of steady denial and during the ugliest fights of our marriage when we were both acting without appropriate restraint. No excuse. Regrettable. I regret the arguments in front of the kids and the statements we both made. 



AllMessedUp said:


> he is angry and yelling at me constantly


I believe that this is exaggeration. In any event, AllMessedUp seems at this point to be angrier at me than I am about hell I have been dragged through the past 6 months.



AllMessedUp said:


> Anyway, I understand Harken telling and continuing to share with the two very good friends he mentioned, as they have been solid friends and pillars of comfort to him. And I have no issues at all with him hanging out with the friend who had a PA and is in the midst of divorce proceedings (I have mentioned to Harken that I find it interesting that he enjoys spending time with that friend so much, yet gets sick to his stomach around me - he did have a fair response, "He wasn't unfaithful to me." Yet Harken has been reaching out to additional people over the past two weeks "for perspective" as he puts it. He said he doesn't trust his own judgment, since he has been wrong so many times, so he is asking others if they think he should stay in the marriage. This is more than 7 weeks since he learned all the details and three months since contact was ended completely. Several of these people don't know us as a couple well if at all, yet he is looking for their perspective. He reached out to my dad to ask for perspective - I understand the advice of contacting family if it's being done to stop the affair behavior, but this occurred just last week. And he has asked his brother (who lives afar, we rarely see or talk to and knows virtually nothing about us as a couple), another friend from his past who has gone through a divorce (who doesn't know me at all), a very good friend of mine, etc. He has also shared the affair information with his law partner as well as an attorney we both know in town to seek her advice as to whether he could legally get copies of the texts. All in our very small community (small town of 10,000 next to a "big town" of 66,000 people). Plus several joint friends of ours - just seems like the circle keeps growing and growing. I get that Shaggy and others feel this is all good, but I'm not sure how it helps us at this point in our "reconciliation."


Re perspective: AllMessedUp has demonstrated her ability to massively deceive me. Yes, having been so wrong in the past, I seek some external points of reference in how best to move forward. The judgment and advice of some people who know us and who I respect. The stakes are high and there are a number of constituents, the most important being our 4 daugters. I know the advice of 2 best friends on these matters and I have been struggling against it.

As for sharing with my law partner, we depend on each other financially and professionally. Areas in which our lives are thoroughly intertwined and interdependent. He deserved to know why I had been so severly handicapped and unable to focus on work for a period of months. One of the many days I did not make it to the office in the immediate aftermath of the July disclosures, he stopped at my house to deliver some materials I requested and found me with one of our daughters getting ready to go fishing so I could think about something else and enjoy some simple with my daughter. He found me with red, swollen eyes and dried tears caked on my cheeks. This has impacted him too. I did not give any details, I said simply that AllMessedUp had been having an affair. He asked if I wanted some time away. I said "Thanks, no. I just want to get this deal done. Focus on work is difficult, but it helps." I have appreciated his support and understanding, which has let some of the pressure off during a difficult period.

This affair sh!t hurts bad. The last 6 months have been by far the most miserable chapter of my life. The damage that has been done is deep and lasting. I didn’t ask for any of it, and if the advice and counsel of friends and family may be helpful or even necessary to me in weathering this storm and putting my life and my family back together, I do not think I am going to worry that some of the more proper among us may find that tacky.

I do appreciate AllMessedUp's post, but I did not intend this to be a thread about our specific struggles.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

It sounds like you guys are just mudslinging now. There is a lot of resentment built up between you, and it doesn't seem to be improving at all. I think you are at DEFCON 1, and need to assess what you are going to do about it, whether it be constructive healing, or separation/divorce. What is happening now is not healthy.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Well when it happened to me - I was so embarrassed and ashamed - as a man I thought I was less than a man - I wanted to keep it really secret - but my ex-wife kept posting crap on fb like "her body was tingling with all the possibilities out there" and posting sex songs on fb - that everyone started asking questions - then I came to this site and they mention to tell people and it hit me like a ton of bricks - I DID NOTHING WRONG!! - why am I so ashamed? I started telling everyone and now I feel free and she's embarrassed (the person who's embarrassed is the one who did the wrong) and that is the way it should be. She's extremely pissed that I did so and that I outed her before she was ready to out the affair herself - but I felt it was important to let people know and it really helped me. Her family have alienated her, our kids now are starting to see through her and her work have transferred her away from her AP - life has a funny way of working out. But outing her was important - think of yourself as a teacher and needing to educate the world as to what went on.....they need to see the picture - even if it is not pretty......


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> It sounds like you guys are just mudslinging now. There is a lot of resentment built up between you, and it doesn't seem to be improving at all. I think you are at DEFCON 1, and need to assess what you are going to do about it, whether it be constructive healing, or separation/divorce. What is happening now is not healthy.


Gabriel - I'm not sure what DEFCON 1 is, but we are at an extremely unhealthy place. The affair is in Harken's thoughts and mind every single moment of every day and we talk about it in every conversation. He will say that today we won't talk about the affair and within the first hour of saying that, he will have brought it up 2-3 times. He says he wants to work on it, yet all his actions tell me otherwise. It's heartbreaking to me to read all his posts about wishing for the happy ending in people's stories, yet he doesn't seem to want to try to make ours a happy ending. I posted on my thread a month again the things I was doing to try to move things forward and I continue to be there, be supportive, reach out a hand or give a hug, talk every time he brings up the subject. Earlier this week I asked him whether he felt things were better than they were 7+ weeks ago when he learned all the details of my discussions with AF (the details I had previously lied about when we talked about the substance of my texts and calls to AP) and he said yes, but I actually see it as worse. At that point he said if that was all there was, we could work through it, but as the days and weeks go on, he seems to get more and more disgusted with me. Makes me very, very sad.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> *EDIT:*
> What you are doing to your kids is plain wrong. You can't tell your children their mom is a coc*sucker, what's wrong with you ? You chose your spouse, they didn't choose their mother. You can have an infinite amount of partners, they only have one mother. Nothing that can be done to you could justify you crushing the image of their mother in their eyes. Think about what that would do to their self-esteem.
> Stop making your children pay for a grown-up f*** up.


Absolutely agree. AllMessedUp and I were having an ugly argument and the kids were present. We did not seek out the kids to tell them ugly things about eachother. It was bad judgment, bad circumstances, and lack of restraint in a very heated moment.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

HB, I appreciate the link in your post. It pretty well describes how many of the posters here, including myself, feel or have felt. I see a lot of anger between the two of you, and that is understandable. I hope that airing that anger is therapeutic and not irreversibly destructive. Need to work hard on that to keep moving in the direction of healing. I turned my anger inward, told no one, and it nearly destroyed me. Good luck to you both.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Back on topic, I agree that I chose my actions and that I’m embarrassed by them. And that my embarrassment has no bearing on what and to whom Harken chooses to share. I struggle in particular with the word affair. Those of you on this board probably have a much broader view of what an affair is. Prior to all this happening, in my mind, and I think the general societal view when an affair is mentioned, everyone immediately thinks a married person is sleeping with someone outside their marriage. In many of the situations where Harken has shared with others, he simply says my wife had an affair, no further details. So as the word moves around our small community, especially with the individuals he sat with/shared with at the bar, that is the assumption. And I don’t want to discount or belittle my actions, as they were absolutely wrong and inappropriate, but I have never ever had any physical contact with anyone outside our marriage. Not only am I embarrassed and ashamed about my actions (significant amounts of communication with AP over a three month period, including sending him two sexts), but I am also embarrassed about the incorrect assumptions of those out there now. And the assumptions of even our daughter, since Harken asked her to go ask her friends what an affair is so she would understand who and what her mother is.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

If anyone wants the backstory, it's in our threads:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51649-seeking-advice.html

Hopefully the last I will say about kid situation is that I regret that we have had nasty fights in their presence. Neither of us sought out the kids to tell them nasty things about their Mom or Dad. I regret specifically the statement AllMessedUp is referring to. It occurred in the middle of a nasty, nasty argument following my finally getting to the truth about some real nastiness. Some things AllMessedUp has made statements about me to the kids in these fights that are no less f*cked up. That is not the point and not hte point of this thread. 

We have 4 young children and extremely hectic and complicated lives. We both wish we could completely keep the ugliness away from them, but that has not happened. Neither is this the place for us to spar. And this subject is off the topic. No one is defending fighting in front of the kids and saying hurtful things about their parents to them.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

AMU, I appreciate your willingness to own what you did, and your angst at having others, particularly your children, hear that it was something otherwise. As HB said, not his finest moment.  But you need to understand that for many BS, it is not the question of PA/EA, it is the knowledge that love that should have been held between the two of you was given to someone else. I do not know the details of my wife's A. I don't want to know (avoiding mind movies). I have never asked, "Did/do you love him?" because I really don't think I'm prepared to deal with the answer. That could be the deal breaker for me. I'd like to add, please, both of you, take better care of your kids.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

AllMessedUp said:


> Gabriel - I'm not sure what DEFCON 1 is, but we are at an extremely unhealthy place. (


For the record DEFCON is the system the military uses to describe the continuum between peace and war. DEFCON 5 is peace, DEFCON 1 is full on war. This is prominently discussed/used in the movie Wargames with Matthew Broderick.

Harken - listen to what your wife is saying. You honestly can't badger her every day all the time about this, or waving the word "affair" to people without explaining it a little bit more. It's childish and you are leaving out the fact it wasn't physical on purpose. You know you are doing this. It's to get back at her for the pain you are feeling. But it will get you nowhere. Work this out in IC and a couple of close friends who know the details. Otherwise, you may be doing irrepairable damage here.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> It's childish and you are leaving out the fact it wasn't physical on purpose. You know you are doing this.


Neither of those statements is correct. Gabriel, I think you are familiar with the story. I have not manipulated it.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I have not tried to give anyone any false impressions. My good friends with whom I have discussed this know what I know. They have been through the process with me over several months trying to piece it together, we have gone through the discovery together. They know that I believe that after the first night in Florida it was all by phone, IM, VOIP, and text. They also know that I can't be certain that I know all there is to know and that a lot has been hidden from me. There was a huge volume of interaction and communication. Just stunning. I have not discussed the matter in detail with anyone else, other than some discussion with my dad, a friend in another state who has been through the break up of his own marriage and the process of recovery, a friend who is more a friend of AllMessedUps who had reached out to me a few weeks ago to discuss the situation (the guy who told me about the brother of the guy at the bar), my brother, and my partner. When I first discussed with my partner I believed it had been physical and had gotten an STD test. Sucky period. After more discussion wiht AllMessedUp and at her request I re-approached my partner a week or so later to say that it was important to AllMessedUp that he know that she firmly denies the physical and that I believe her. I know AllMessedUp is upset about this getting into the community, but I am not distorting by omission or otherwise and despite her impression I am not running around telling people that she had an affair.

EDIT: There is also "Matt" as mentioned in this thread above.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

So takeaway is: the side effect of lying to your spouse is they don't really know what you are up to.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I have not tried to give anyone any false impressions. My good friends with whom I have discussed this know what I know. They have been through the process with me over several months trying to piece it together, we have gone through the discovery together. They know that I believe that after the first night in Florida it was all by phone, IM, VOIP, and text. They also know that I can't be certain that I know all there is to know and that a lot has been hidden from me. There was a huge volume of interaction and communication. Just stunning. I have not discussed the matter in detail with anyone else, other than some discussion with my dad, a friend in another state who has been through the break up of his own marriage and the process of recovery, a friend who is more a friend of AllMessedUps who had reached out to me a few weeks ago to discuss the situation (the guy who told me about the brother of the guy at the bar), my brother, and my partner. When I first discussed with my partner I believed it had been physical and had gotten an STD test. Sucky period. After more discussion wiht AllMessedUp and at her request I re-approached my partner a week or so later to say that it was important to AllMessedUp that he know that she firmly denies the physical and that I believe her. I know AllMessedUp is upset about this getting into the community, but I am not distorting by omission or otherwise and despite her impression I am not running around telling people that she had an affair.



Everything you say above is correct, with some glaring ommissions. Announcing to a room filled with all your family (parents, sister, brother-in-law) that I had an affair with no details or clarifications, literally screaming from your parents driveway "you had an affair" with neighbors outside (friends of ours) who could hear and turned when they heard. Turning to a teacher in our daughter's school and saying "go call your boyfriend, yes I said boyfriend." Reaching out to strangers in a bar (who happen to have significant connections to our friends and acquaintenances in this community) and telling them you have some experience with this and may be able to help, without disclosing more (knowing the individual you were trying to help is experiencing a wife who left him after spending months sleeping with her trainer). Again, Harken has every right to share with whomever he pleases, but I don't think he is being truthful about many of the intents. And again, I'm not sure how any of this helps us if he truly does want to reconcile.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> Everything you say above is correct, with some glaring ommissions. Announcing to a room filled with all your family (parents, sister, brother-in-law) that I had an affair with no details or clarifications, literally screaming from your parents driveway "you had an affair" with neighbors outside (friends of ours) who could hear and turned when they heard. Turning to a teacher in our daughter's school and saying "go call your boyfriend, yes I said boyfriend." Reaching out to strangers in a bar (who happen to have significant connections to our friends and acquaintenances in this community) and telling them you have some experience with this and may be able to help, without disclosing more (knowing the individual you were trying to help is experiencing a wife who left him after spending months sleeping with her trainer). Again, Harken has every right to share with whomever he pleases, but I don't think he is being truthful about many of the intents. And again, I'm not sure how any of this helps us if he truly does want to reconcile.


Neighbors: I was oblivious to their presence down the road and only aware thanks to AMU telling me now.

Teacher: I had no idea who the person was. I spoke to AMU and this person turned when I said the word "boyfriend." I turned back to her and said "Yes, I said 'boyfriend.'"

Bar: I offered my number to the guy's brother because I had just heard his story and that he was reeling. They asked me to talk and after I said I had heard they asked if I had heard from AMU's friend. I said yes. They said he told us about you.

Family: tough situation. AMU was in affair land and unreachable. I was in a terrible state and trying to reach her. To no avail. She was coldly shutting me out, which made everything worse. Statement was made in the kitchen and in a daze as I was trying to figure out if I had the starch to walk back out to the dining room where everyone was gathered.

Not where I thought this thread would go.

EDIT: Teacher statement was not made at school. It was at the pool area of our country club, which is open and spacious, and made specifically to AllMessedUp. This person was not at our table or in our conversation and I had no idea who she was at the time.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I respond to these things here not to convince all of you people I do not know, but because, as was the case with counselor Bob, your statements here, based on your opinions and take, which may or may not be well informed (“If you don’t know what you are talking about, say it with conviction!”), feed the psyche. 

I am not trying to win. I don't think AllMessedUp is either. Stuff is hard. We are both hurting badly. Both want the best for each other and our family. Please continue to post, but understand when we push back hard on posts we do not agree with. Guess this thread is now a part of the HB/AMU show.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I'm not sure how any of this helps us if he truly does want to reconcile.


I did not focus on this last sentence before. Adrenaline.

I have this warm, nostalgic idea of our family as it was and as I want it to be. That warm nostalgia may be something very much like fog. Please convince me that it is not.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

HB....I have never been in your shoes......but feel a lot of empathy with your position.......your anger (and remember that anger is a secondary emotion....most frequently steeming from fear) is very understandable.

you fear the loss of your wife's love
you fear the loss of the marriage 
you fear the impact this all will have on your children
you fear the impact on your life and future (and this includes how the folks around you view you as both a person and husband)

and you know what? your wife has the same fears in her head right now.......and yes, her anger is coming from the same fears that you have. Both of you expressing anger does not mean R is not possible....it may mean exactly the opposite. But the both of you expressing high levels of anger (irregardless of who is the BS and who is the WS) is not helpful to the pragmatic cause of achieving R.

Maybe it is time to start working on pushing some of you guys' fears (and resultant anger) down to manageable levels.......really, consider some form of IC........doesn't mean you are weak or that you have done anything wrong......find an IC that can give you some "tools" to harness your feelings into a process that will help you get a more effective result. Let's face it, none of our education really gives us the tools for this type of stuff. Having a good process and working the process has a much better chance of achieving the goal you both say you want....a long loving and trusting relationship.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Neither of those statements is correct. Gabriel, I think you are familiar with the story. I have not manipulated it.


I am familiar with the story, but given this last exchange between you two, it seems you are still quite angry at your wife, and are making a point to remind her of this. Even in your last couple of posts, you are still trying to mitigate what you are doing, and your wife is slamming it back home.

Maybe you accidentally didn't mention the affair wasn't physical, or maybe subconciously you did it on purpose. Whatever the case may be, you are still making your wife pay for her actions with your words. And doing it often, it seems.

It's totally okay to be angry. What she did was wrong and very hurtful to you. But there is a point where the wayward reaches a breaking point in their punishment. This has been discussed on other threads, and is relevant to the original topic of this one. 

It sounds like your wife is nearing this breaking point, if she isn't there already. You are of course allowed to bring up the affair to her, even years later, but you can't pound it home daily and expect positive results. Pick your spots and do it constructively. Start widening the gap between discussions. If you must talk it through more often than that, do it here on TAM, or with an MC/IC.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

...sorry, forgot this part......make sure you start having fun together.......over time this really needs to be part of you two working on R.........would suck if this was not part of the equation.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Maybe you accidentally didn't mention the affair wasn't physical, or maybe subconciously you did it on purpose.


Please disabuse yourself of this wayward notion. Please.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Gabriel, tell me again of the instances where I told someone of the affair without context.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Here is what I think about 'Talking about the Affair'

The 'affair' be it emotional or physical is the result of the problems that existed in your relationship. It is not the cause of the problems that exist in your relationship. An affair is the result, not the cause.

Not talking about it, only means that the betrayed has their imagination to rely on ... and that can be a dangerous thing. Obviously has been for you, Harken.

The issue surrounding talking with your partner also becomes doubting what they are telling you. They have already lied through their teeth. I have pointed out on several occasions that once I was armed with the truth, and my ex didn't know that I had the truth, I would engage her in conversation just to see how deeply she would continue to lie ... and sadly I wasn't disappointed.

It was as if she was incapable of telling the truth. I cannot say if such is the case with AllMessedUp or not. What is apparent ... both of you appear to be invested in repairing your marriage. That factor was absent from my circumstances.

Lastly ...
If talking about the affair between the two of you is going to continue to be toxic ... and right now, it most certainly is ... then set up some ground rules and follow them.

As for talking with others?
I was an open book. I wasn't looking to shame or harm my wife. We were separated, and supposedly trying to work towards reconcilation. Had she not LIED and deceived me about the nature of her relationship with her Affair Partner ... I wouldn't have called it an affair. But she did ... so I did. It was a betrayal.

So, here is my piece Harken, do what you must. Sounds like at the very least you aren't withholding your actions from your spouse.

But ... whether you disclose them or not, if you are continuously aware that your actions to be open about the affair are harming your wife, and in the doing harming your chances of reconciling, then you need to weigh that.

Frankly I'm impressed with what the two of you are trying to do. Truly.

I don't doubt for a moment that it is painful, uncomfortable, and difficult, but I support anyone trying to find their way back to something good and positive.

For as long as the both of you share that same goal ... and keep talking to one another, and importantly know when to STOP talking to one another if things get ugly, then you both deserve all the support you can muster.

If your process breaks down into score-keeping, and tallying who has hurt whom more, then you're both on the wrong track.

Sincerely, I hope the two of you find your way, for your sakes, and the sake of your family.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Gabriel, tell me again of the instances where I told someone of the affair without context.


I am only referring to what your wife said. She said you spread the word "affair" around without qualifying it as something as not physical, which left it open for people to think she slept with someone. It's in her post. I'm not making it up. Nor would I have even had this thought otherwise.


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## Exsquid (Jul 31, 2012)

Bride of Frank said:


> :agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:
> 
> Very well put, Xunknown. That's what I was thinking while reading Harken say he basically doesn't care what the gossips know. It's not so much what they KNOW, but what they tell others. They may _know_ your WS cheated, but they may _tell others_ that they 'know' you beat him/her, they 'know' you're planning to kill AP, they 'know' the AP was perfect for WS while you are wrong; gosh what else they could be telling, to an audience who maybe never even met you but see you at work, eg. And then you could be dealing with people who have these impressions of you and are treating you according to what they think you are, while you don't even realize they know anything at all about you personally.




I have a similar experience but the gossip was during the affair not so much after. I told every one of our mutual friends about my wife's 2 year affair. I'm not embarrassed at all. In fact quite the opposite. My wife had been telling all of our friends all kinds of lies during the period of her affair. Horrible things like I was planning to leave her and take our 4 year old girl with me, I was controlling, I made her work 2 jobs, I was verbally abusive, etc. None of this is even close to true. I called my wife a W**** 20 minutes after I found out about what she had been doing to me for the past 2 years. It was the first time I have cursed at her in 10.5 years together. 

Bottom line is, while in the process of telling people what had happened, most (all but 1, wifes best friend) of them all realized that she had been lying to them the entire time. They all said that they knew something was going on with her and they thought things "didn't add up" but they never contacted me because they all had known her for a couple of years more and chose to believe her. (Most I knew for 10+years).

Guess what I am trying to say is I feel that I, as the BS, have the right to "set the record straight" and no longer live in a "secret world". I have the right to tell our friends and family what has happened, and what she was doing to her family. I have no one real close to talk to about my situation, my best friend of 19 years is my brother in law...sigh....and I am thinking I may finally share my story on here in the coming days. 

I'm just happy I told people...bottom line. 


And a side note: all of our mutual friends have perm. distanced themselves from my wife. But they call me often to see how I am.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks Exsquid for bringing the thread back on track. I am sorry for what you went through. None of AllMessedUp or my friends will distance either of us, whatever the fall out. Of that I am sure. We get locked into our own perspectives. Our friends keep us honest, but also understand. And she's more likable that me, so that is a war I cannot win. Thanks Deejo and Gabriel. I think we both want each other and our family. We just have trouble getting out or our own way.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I totally agree with this post. My H told nobody and had spoken to nobody about his A. I needed support. I told all my close friends and their Hs, I told my mum and stepdad and my sister and step brother and his wife. I also told a few work colleagues. It would have been 100 times worse if I hadn't had support from these people.
> 
> When i thought my H wasn't coming home I started telling a few more people, one or 2 neighbours and 2 parents of my daughters friends. I'd only just done that when we decided to R.
> H was very embarrassed the first time we got together with all our friends and he put off seeing my family for a while. I have no regret in telling and talking. This wasn't my doing, it was his and I did what was best for me and the kids. He wasn't to happy that my closest friends knew all the details but my reaction? Too bab! You shouldn't have cheated and put me through hell!
> ...


I did. I went through it alone. And I think it screwed up my mind for a while.

I remember my wife saying to me: "What ever happened to the happy, carefree Matt I first met?" I could not answer her. Because I knew she would not like what I might have said.

I had the revenge affair a couple of years later. Then my wife and I talked. A lot. In fact, she used her training to counsel me. Which helped to an extent.

But what really helped me was coming to TAM in May.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Talking through the issues and emotions (initially the confusion, shock, and disbelief, and later how to manage and make sense of the situation and process), primarily with good friends, has been critical therapy for me. I simply would not have made it through the Spring without the consult, advice, and support of my best friends. I have also talked to a few friends who have been through infidelity (including one cheating spouse), attempted reconciliation, and divorce. It has been very helpful and informative, and has at times provided some much needed comfort and perspective.
> 
> About a week ago, a friend who is more a friend of my wife had reached out to me talk about what was going on. At the end of the conversation he mentioned another guy the community with 4 young kids who had just learned that his wife was in a PA with her triathalon trainer. He thought I would know the guy because we are both lawyers and have some activities in common, but I did not.
> 
> ...


Tell her, "In the future, don't give me things to talk about."


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> I think we both want each other and our family. We just have trouble getting out or our own way.


The fact you realize this is excellent progress.

Regarding talking about the affair in general, it really is a balancing game between helping the BS and harming the WS. It's a tough wire to walk across.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I am only referring to what your wife said. She said you spread the word "affair" around without qualifying it as something as not physical, which left it open for people to think she slept with someone. It's in her post. I'm not making it up. Nor would I have even had this thought otherwise.


Exactly.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Exactly.


So clearly I am only hearing one side's opinion there. Reality could be quite different!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Look, if there is support for the allegations that I am recklessly throwing "affair" grenades let's have it. Otherwise, the allegation is the grenade.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Hi Harken, the honesty you express shows your genuine willingness to move on and be happy with your wife again. I thought for a second that you kept your spouse to have a reminder of how you have been betrayed (some people use it as a way to make themselves believe they are saints) but I think you're hurting a lot and don't know how to really put down the fire.

Here's my suggestion, hopefully direct enough:
Stop sharing your story with people whom are irrelevant to the healing process.
People that aren't in the same situation as you (ie: The guy whom his wife left for another man. Clearly your wife hasn't anything in common with the woman so it's not at all the same experience.)

People that know you but don't have any experience in therapy and counseling (ie. Your family. Either they will be biased to one side or another or will hate the feeling of being a hostage in the potential dilemmas that would arise.)

You may say that I am not in the same situation as you and that I have no clue about therapy nor counseling, so why would you speak to me about it. Or let me know about the details.
Well, it's simple. There's freaking small chances that I will cross your wife in the drugstore or the bar, so there's no risk that she will be stressing guessing what I am thinking about her, if I'm being a judgemental prick or if I'm losing respect for her.
She made a despicable thing, but creating constant reminders of what she's done, from the same people that populates her day to day life, is unfair to her.
Don't waste her efforts for atonement on other people.

I suggest you begin by accepting the fact that you have been cheated on (emotionally, I finally understand that he feeling of betrayal is as strong as the one from a physical affair) that your woman may (MAY!!!) have some issues coming clean or seeing the gravity of her actions from your point of view and focus on what made you stay with her. (For example, setting up a member account and patiently replying to each part of this conversation).

I really do hope you'll be able to get past this. Take all the time you need, it's the least of your rights, but watch out for adding more damages during the process.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> Here's my suggestion, hopefully direct enough:
> Stop sharing your story with people whom are irrelevant to the healing process.


OK. Point me to where I shared my story with anyone not relevant to the healing process or to the process of trying to serve the interests of my family. Setting aside the arguments in front of the kids, tell where I shared but should not have. Specifically, please.

I appreciate your posts and perspective, on this thread and others. I worry a bit at the certainty with which facts about our situation or what I have done are assumed. I do not want to discourage you or anyone else from posting. I appreciate all sincere posts.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Put another way Torrivien, I do not know anyone who is even similarly situated. An infinite number of monkeys tapping at an infinite number of typewriters for eternity could not replicate it. Our situation is quite complicated and unique. If I rule out talking to anyone who has not been through same thing I will have no one to talk to. How many kids do you have?


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> OK. Point me to where I shared my story with anyone not relevant to the healing process or to the process of trying to serve the interests of my family. Setting aside the arguments in front of the kids, tell where I shared but should not have. Specifically, please.
> 
> I appreciate your posts and perspective, on this thread and others. I worry a bit at the certainty with which facts about our situation or what I have done are assumed. I do not want to discourage you or anyone else from posting. I appreciate all sincere posts.


I can't go and pick each member that I would consider irrelevant. But a good start would be, the poor guy who had been left by his wife and happens to be well acquainted with your wife's friends. It is noble of you to make him know that he isn't alone in this mishap, but if by doing so you will wrongly put your wife in the same category as his. It won't be of any good.

I see that a lot of people consider outing the affair is a good thing, even when the betrayed spouse considers staying with the wayward. But I think that it isn't worth the reconciliation if you need to gather people to secure what should be between you and your partner's only, your new relationship.
I am also really not keen on the getting even, thing. I'd rather suppress the hurt by reasoning and not by reciprocating it.
You must find a couple of people whom you trust to lift a bit of the pain you're feeling. That's why we all are here. But, in my own opinion, the less people that know about the details of the affair, the better.

I feel that I have to explain that what I said doesn't mean at all that you don't have the right to share the details about the affair. You have every right, but seeing what it does to your relationship and how it intoxicates the reconciliation, I think you'd rather lose that right.

I shouldn't have put "stop". It came off as if you were running around with a sign etirating what your wife did. I meant, "don't" as my answer to the main subject of your thread: Talking about the affair.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Harken Banks said:


> Look, if there is support for the allegations that I am recklessly throwing "affair" grenades let's have it. Otherwise, the allegation is the grenade.


I'll be as blunt and to the point as I can be. When I hear the word "affair" I don't envision some soap opera physical sleeping together hot passionate sex. I envision that one spouse was not giving the other spouse 100% of their affection and loyalty. 

In a nutshell, having been in AMU's shoes, it's sounds to me like she's minimizing. It wasn't a discreet little dalliance or a bit of a fling, it was an AFFAIR. 100% of affections, emotions, sexuality, loyalty...all that belongs to your spouse alone, and if any part of it was given to another human being, then it was an AFFAIR and it was infidelity. Sexting = affair. 

Now, Harken--even though we sometimes disagree, I have to say I do care enough obviously to respond. But I can not encourage you to continue shaming your wife like that in public. That is not going to be an activity that builds love between the two of you. Thus I would encourage you to curb your angry outbursts in public--which includes in front of your children. HOWEVER, it sounds like those were only certain specific instances (the "boyfriend" comment, the one huge fight 7 weeks after, etc.) and it sounds like you have gotten a better grip on it in recent times. 

AMU--here's the fact. You had an affair. YOU chose to do it, not Harken. YOU stepped outside the marriage. In real life it may be several weeks past the date you "told him everything" but how does he know that? I mean REALLY KNOW? You lied and lied and lied to him before. Everything he thought was trustworthy is not. He thought he could trust his judgement and he could not. He thought he could tell when you where lying to his face and he could not. So inside yourself you may know the truth and know when you have and have not told him everything, but HOW IS HE SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT? He's not inside you and does not know if you are still holding things back even to this day! So how does he "know it? He has to rebuild what you spent so much time destroying and pulling apart! And rebuilding takes time. 

So Harken--I would recommend you take the time to say it was an emotional affair, and AMU--I would recommend you stop minimizing what happened. Maybe if you shared what you've learned (instead of trying to hide it) you could stop another wife from having an emotional affair too!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> I can't go and pick each member that I would consider irrelevant. But a good start would be, the poor guy who had been left by his wife and happens to be well acquainted with your wife's friends. It is noble of you to make him know that he isn't alone in this mishap, but if by doing so you will wrongly put your wife in the same category as his. It won't be of any good.
> 
> I see that a lot of people consider outing the affair is a good thing, even when the betrayed spouse considers staying with the wayward.


And what do you suppose was my motivation here? Remembering that I had heard the story, knew that I did not know the people involved, and offered the guy my cell phone number to pass to his brother?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> I shouldn't have put "stop". It came off as if you were running around with a sign etirating what your wife did. I meant, "don't" as my answer to the main subject of your thread: Talking about the affair.


So this is what it boils down to. Don't talk about the affair. Correct?


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

I understand your point.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> So this is what it boils down to. Don't talk about the affair. Correct?


Don't talk about the affair if doing so would throw a spanner to the goal you try to reach.
This is how it would be correct.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> Don't talk about the affair if doing so would throw a spanner to the goal you try to reach.
> This is how it would be correct.


Fair enough. Get's back to Shaggy's rule.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Look, if there is support for the allegations that I am recklessly throwing "affair" grenades let's have it. Otherwise, the allegation is the grenade.


I've provided examples of where you have thrown the affair term about in public in this thread. You also say "your affair" to me at least 10 times a day and at least once a day yell "I didn't have an affair, you did" in response to any comment you don't like. If you'd like to deny the public comments (to the teacher, open neighborhood yelling, to our daughter and through assumption during your bar conversation), please go ahead and do that. But I haven't seen you do that, since you know they are true.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I've provided examples of where you have thrown the affair term about in public in this thread. You also say "your affair" to me at least 10 times a day and at least once a day yell "I didn't have an affair, you did" in response to any comment you don't like. If you'd like to deny the public comments (to the teacher, open neighborhood yelling, to our daughter and through assumption during your bar conversation), please go ahead and do that. But I haven't seen you do that, since you know they are true.


I think those points have been covered.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So which is more important to the both of you?

Being right, or being married?

I reread your initial post in this thread, and I suppose I'm trying to understand, is your question based on the premise or statement that your wife wants you to stop talking about it?

In this case, given that the two of you interact, and post here ... I'm presuming there is stuff going on that we 'the forum people' are never going to be fully tuned into.

Does AMU accept that you have benefited from being able to talk to others or is part of the issue (real or perceived) about how she comes out looking as a result? 

I don't get it, based on her posts here seems like she accepts that what she did was an affair, cheating, betrayal. Facts of omission shouldn't be part of the 'concern pool' right now.
Besides, were you and I Harken, sitting at a bar and you told me, "AllMessedUp had an affair .."

One of the questions I would likely ask is "How long has she been sleeping with this guy?"

And one would think, clarifying details would ensue.

My opinion is that you guys are no where remotely close to forgiveness and moving on. This is all still open and raw ... and somehow you need to find a way to let it heal rather than keeping it irritated and raw. Not saying that requires a timeframe, but it definitely requires desire.

You need a third party ... one that you both have vetted. You both seem like very intelligent people, I'm kind of shocked you aren't seeing a counselor.

I understand that you had a bad experience, but you would be remiss to let that single circumstance prevent the both of you from getting the kind of support that you need, or someone that can call bullsh!t when warranted.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I've provided examples of where you have thrown the affair term about in public in this thread. You also say "your affair" to me at least 10 times a day and at least once a day yell "I didn't have an affair, you did" in response to any comment you don't like. If you'd like to deny the public comments (to the teacher, open neighborhood yelling, to our daughter and through assumption during your bar conversation), please go ahead and do that. But I haven't seen you do that, since you know they are true.


AMU...he is hurt and is showing his hurt in a way that is hurtful to you........viscous cycle that somehow needs to stop for R if you both truly want that. All of our advice is meaningless at this point....its up to the two of you to figure this out and make it work........AMU, maybe he keeps at it because it is hard for you to actually admit to him and yourself that your actions were so hurtful. And HB, maybe its time to take Juicer's advice to sometimes go out to the garage and punch out a panel or two of sheetrock (bought specifically for that, not on the wall...hitting studs hurts). 

Really, when someone keeps saying to someone else how hurt they are, over and over...it means they don't believe the other person really gets what they mean by being hurt. Try changing the conversation.....this is a marriage and family, not a courtroom. Flexibility and win/win can work here.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Being right, or being married?


Point well taken, as far as it goes. We face many challenges.



Deejo said:


> I don't get it, based on her posts here seems like she accepts that what she did was an affair, cheating, betrayal. Facts of omission shouldn't be part of the 'concern pool' right now.
> Besides, were you and I Harken, sitting at a bar and you told me, "AllMessedUp had an affair .."
> 
> One of the questions I would likely ask is "How long has she been sleeping with this guy?"
> ...


What the couple at the bar know of our situation they learned from AMU's friend. It was not a topic of our discussion. I felt no need to go there and we did not.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

So, what are you guys going to do?

Harken, are you going to mitigate your berating comments and keep it constructive? 

AMU, are you going to work on your attitude and soften your responses and anger when Harken brings it up?

Or are you guys going to continue to argue about what is appropriate and fair, like the good attorneys that you are?

What action items are you planning on taking, starting today, to reconcile your marriage and save your family?


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> So, what are you guys going to do?
> 
> Harken, are you going to mitigate your berating comments and keep it constructive?
> 
> ...


Gabriel - I very, very much want to work on this and I have been doing everything I can think of to move us forward. I have planned dates (without the children), we're all sleeping under the same roof and in the same bed (if you know our story, this hasn't been the case for much of the last 7 months), I've been begging to go to marriage counseling (he finally agreed last week and it ended up being a miserable session - he has admitted he didn't want to be there). I see that AC thinks I've been minimizing my affair and I don't think I have. He has every detail because I've shared it with him, I've owned and apologized for each detail, I gave him the name and phone number of AP's boss to verify that he was never out of town when I was, I did everything I could to get Harken the actual texts (he admitted to me last week that he has been "on hold" in terms of any reconciliation until he got the texts to be able to confirm whether I was telling the truth - once we finally learned no one is able to retrieve them, he hasn't known whether to move forward with R or proceed to divorce - that has been his reasoning to reaching out to so many individuals to get their perspective as to whether he should leave the marriage now), I've answered every question asked, I've shown him compassion about his health (encouraged him to get to a doctor, made sure I was bringing him food to help combat the weight loss, asking every day how he is doing), told him how much I love him and want us to work through this. I find it interesting that you mention my anger, as letting my anger surface has been an issue for me for years, but during the last two months, I've sat here and listened, taken all the screaming at me, feeling that I deserve it and need to let him get it all out. But it's not getting better and after 7 weeks of screaming, my anger and frustration is starting to reappear. 

Honestly, I'm at a point when I don't know if it will get better, as it doesn't seem to at all. We're not focusing on us or developing our relationship. Every thing we do and every conversation we have circles back to the affair. A very basic and non hostile example occurred Wed night as we were celebrating our youngest daughter's 3rd birthday. One daughter asked how many slices of cake to cut and I said five, since daddy usually doesn't like to eat cake (he is not a sweets person). He looked up and said "Kind of ironic that statement would come from you." Beautiful family moment as we came together at the time to celebrate our daughter's birthday and he had to point out that he felt I was a cake eater (he then asked me if I knew what that term was). Even when he is not yelling at me about all the pain I've caused, he has comments like these throughout virtually every conversation to remind me what he thinks about me and that it's always on his mind. And there have been little to no actions on his part to move the relationship forward.

Would greatly appreciate any advice anyone can offer as to how and if one can get out of this cycle. I will honestly admit that reconciliation is feeling more and more hopeless. I get that many of you will jump in and say that I deserve this, I made my choices and am paying the price, but we've been broken as a couple for so very long and I truly want to try to make this work. But it does take two.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't have any advice, but I feel sorry for what you're going through AMU. I can sense that you're one of the more remorseful WSs on this forum. Like Deejo said however, you're not reconciling and Harken's certainly hasn't dealt with the resentment properly. Harken, the relentless snide remarks will make your wife shut out completely. 

If you're serious about reconciliation, give your wife some appreciation and take MC more seriously. Don't just keep her around to be a verbal punching bag. Deal with your anger more constructively.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I don't have any advice, but I feel sorry for what you're going through AMU. I can sense that you're one of the more remorseful WSs on this forum. Like Deejo said however, you're not reconciling and Harken's certainly hasn't dealt with the resentment properly. Harken, the relentless snide remarks will make your wife shut out completely.
> 
> If you're serious about reconciliation, give your wife some appreciation and take MC more seriously. Don't just keep her around to be a verbal punching bag. Deal with your anger more constructively.


Really? I've never gotten the sense that she's remorseful from her posts. I definitely sense some regret. I sense frustration. Lots of that. And lots of defensiveness. She makes a big deal that it's been 7 whole weeks since she finally came clean. He should be over it by now!!

But I remember that her husband was in pain for months. She watched him physically and mentally deteriorate while she carried on with OM. Oh, she only sexted with him twice. That's okay then. I guess your only allowed to feel betrayed if your spouse sexts at least 3 times.

I'm also not surprised that he doesn't feel comfortable with MC at this point. Since she lied to their counselor before about her "friendship" with OM in order to get permission to continue her inappropriate relationship. Causing more pain and damage. But hey, it's been 7 weeks! So that must mean she's remorseful.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Really? I've never gotten the sense that she's remorseful from her posts. I definitely sense some regret. I sense frustration. Lots of that. And lots of defensiveness. She makes a big deal that it's been 7 whole weeks since she finally came clean. He should be over it by now!!
> 
> But I remember that her husband was in pain for months. She watched him physically and mentally deteriorate while she carried on with OM. Oh, she only sexted with him twice. That's okay then. I guess your only allowed to feel betrayed if your spouse sexts at least 3 times.
> 
> I'm also not surprised that he doesn't feel comfortable with MC at this point. Since she lied to their counselor before about her "friendship" with OM in order to get permission to continue her inappropriate relationship. Causing more pain and damage. But hey, it's been 7 weeks! So that must mean she's remorseful.


There's different type of sorry

Sorry I hurt you
Sorry I got found out
Sorry I can't see my lover any more
Sorry I was outed
Sorry I am not sorry


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

I've been reading posts every day for eight weeks on this board and posted very little, when I was seeking advice. I had asked Harken whether he would discuss with his IC whether she felt that sharing our affair in the public was helpful to moving us forward and he chose to ask this board, which is why I have added my perspective to the situation because I am honestly interested in the feedback. Harken and I are openly discussing the issues constantly and I guess I'll leave it up to him to say whether he feels I've been remorseful. I haven't felt it was my duty to prove my remorse on this board - I think I owe that to my husband through my words and actions. I absolutely regret everything I did and feel terrible about the pain and hurt I have put my husband through. The first two times we were intimate after I shared with him all the details of my affair I burst into tears because I was so humbled that he would be willing to take me in his arms. I realize the risk I put on our marriage, our family and my vows to my husband. Should Harken decide he wants to commit to reconciliation, I will never ever put myself or our marriage at risk again. And to clarify, I am not and have never suggested that Harken "get over it." I am respectfully asking that he allow us to try to take some steps, even baby steps, toward a future together.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Really? I've never gotten the sense that she's remorseful from her posts. I definitely sense some regret. I sense frustration. Lots of that. And lots of defensiveness. She makes a big deal that it's been 7 whole weeks since she finally came clean. He should be over it by now!!
> 
> But I remember that her husband was in pain for months. She watched him physically and mentally deteriorate while she carried on with OM. Oh, she only sexted with him twice. That's okay then. I guess your only allowed to feel betrayed if your spouse sexts at least 3 times.
> 
> I'm also not surprised that he doesn't feel comfortable with MC at this point. Since she lied to their counselor before about her "friendship" with OM in order to get permission to continue her inappropriate relationship. Causing more pain and damage. But hey, it's been 7 weeks! So that must mean she's remorseful.


I think you've misunderstood what I meant. There isn't and shouldn't be a timeline as to when a BS should get over an affair. I'm certainly not suggesting that Harken simply turn the other cheek and move on. I understand and empathise with his pain completely. However, when a WS makes a proactive-concious effort to atone for their actions yet are "rewarded" with constant hostility, there comes a point when the BS has to decide what it is exactly that they want. Would 8 weeks make more of a difference or would 8 months be a better timeline? 

As AMU already expressed, there's resentment on both sides. They've had a crappy marriage for a long time and for her, it seems like it's been a solo effort to put things back in place. How long do you honestly suggest she be "punished" before Harken feels satisfied to R? How many more sneering remarks before he feels comfortable to give MC another go? I'm saying this because when there's resentment on both sides and one party is trying, while the other is constantly cold to their efforts, sooner or later the incentive to reconcile simply vanishes. I'm not saying Harken should rug sweep his anger, but was it really necessary letting the teacher know about her affair?

AMU's issue isn't with the fact that Harken is taking too long to "get over it", she knows she's monumentally F'd up . Her main problem is with the constant haughty attitude and supercilious comments. To your point about her remorse, I personally have to disagree. I see it more with her than some of the more famous WSs here, but that's a different issue.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> You also say "your affair" to me at least 10 times a day and at least once a day yell "I didn't have an affair, you did" in response to any comment you don't like.


For what it is worth, I do not agree with either of these statements. I note that because they seem to have been accepted as fact. Yes, the specific instances of lack of restraint identified in this thread occurred in one fashion or another. I understand that they upset AllMessedUp. But our daily life is not filled with me b!tching about the affair. I struggle with it near constantly. I b!tch about it a lot less. And the b!tching goes both ways. We both appreciate your thoughtful observations that we should set aside resentment, focus on what we want, and treat each other with respect. Thanks all for your comments and concern.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

As AMU already expressed, there's resentment on both sides. They've had a crappy marriage for a long time [/QUOTE]

No doubt.



Complexity said:


> and for her, it seems like it's been a solo effort to put things back in place.


seems



Complexity said:


> I'm not saying Harken should rug sweep his anger, but was it really necessary letting the teacher know about her affair?


Complexity, I always appreciate and usually agree with your comments. But on this one, did you read the thread? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/55181-talking-about-affair-3.html#post1046955

Please also see the "EDIT" at the bottom of the linked post.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

AMU and HB.........lots of hurt and distrust on so many levels between you two........it just bleeds out whenever you narrate your feelings.

You know what.....you both need to gamble......take a chance....soften toward each other, and trust and give more of a break to the other.......you see.....R is hard because it is not based on certainties....it is a huge gamble and at some point you both need to roll the dice and try it. If you are both being honest and well-intentioned it will work out well.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> As far as bringing it up - she was reasonably open to this, but I did get the "you'll always be punishing me" line from her a couple of times.


I got that line, too. 

My STBEH said I am letting it define who he is......well, duh!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

AllMessedUp said:


> Gabriel - I very, very much want to work on this and I have been doing everything I can think of to move us forward. I have planned dates (without the children), we're all sleeping under the same roof and in the same bed (if you know our story, this hasn't been the case for much of the last 7 months), I've been begging to go to marriage counseling (he finally agreed last week and it ended up being a miserable session - he has admitted he didn't want to be there). I see that AC thinks I've been minimizing my affair and I don't think I have. He has every detail because I've shared it with him, I've owned and apologized for each detail, I gave him the name and phone number of AP's boss to verify that he was never out of town when I was, I did everything I could to get Harken the actual texts (he admitted to me last week that he has been "on hold" in terms of any reconciliation until he got the texts to be able to confirm whether I was telling the truth - once we finally learned no one is able to retrieve them, he hasn't known whether to move forward with R or proceed to divorce - that has been his reasoning to reaching out to so many individuals to get their perspective as to whether he should leave the marriage now), I've answered every question asked, I've shown him compassion about his health (encouraged him to get to a doctor, made sure I was bringing him food to help combat the weight loss, asking every day how he is doing), told him how much I love him and want us to work through this. I find it interesting that you mention my anger, as letting my anger surface has been an issue for me for years, but during the last two months, I've sat here and listened, taken all the screaming at me, feeling that I deserve it and need to let him get it all out. But it's not getting better and after 7 weeks of screaming, my anger and frustration is starting to reappear.
> 
> Honestly, I'm at a point when I don't know if it will get better, as it doesn't seem to at all. We're not focusing on us or developing our relationship. Every thing we do and every conversation we have circles back to the affair. A very basic and non hostile example occurred Wed night as we were celebrating our youngest daughter's 3rd birthday. One daughter asked how many slices of cake to cut and I said five, since daddy usually doesn't like to eat cake (he is not a sweets person). He looked up and said "Kind of ironic that statement would come from you." Beautiful family moment as we came together at the time to celebrate our daughter's birthday and he had to point out that he felt I was a cake eater (he then asked me if I knew what that term was). Even when he is not yelling at me about all the pain I've caused, he has comments like these throughout virtually every conversation to remind me what he thinks about me and that it's always on his mind. And there have been little to no actions on his part to move the relationship forward.
> 
> Would greatly appreciate any advice anyone can offer as to how and if one can get out of this cycle. I will honestly admit that reconciliation is feeling more and more hopeless. I get that many of you will jump in and say that I deserve this, I made my choices and am paying the price, but we've been broken as a couple for so very long and I truly want to try to make this work. But it does take two.


Okay, AMU, first I want to say that 7 weeks isn't very long at all. Less than 2 months. It's nothing. You need to realize this immediately.

I'm putting myself in Harken's shoes, considering my wife had an EA as well. 7 weeks afterwards, I was still in hell. It got better, then worse, then better, then worse, etc, etc. Imagine a line graph that trends upward (better) across the X-axis, but has dips along the way, some small, some large. Beginning of the graph is DDay. End of the graph is 15 months (me right now). The end is way higher than the beginning, but there were lots of peaks and valleys. 7 weeks is really just the beginning.

Also, your anger comes through in your posts. It's pretty obvious.

HOWEVER, Harken can't just pound you into submission and refuse MC, or other coping mechanisms. Having a third party helped me work through some emotions. My W was on board for 4-5 sessions, and then felt beat up. But I felt somewhat better, and went a couple more times. Then stopped. Part of what helped me with the MC was knowing that my wife was going to have to admit her wrongs to another person in my presence. I was very open to MC.

Harken has to be able to talk things out with you, but then needs to quit with the snide remarks. They are passive aggressive, counter-productive, and immature. But you are going to have to deal with the sit downs for awhile still.

This is going to be a long road, guys. Trust me. Patience will serve you both well here.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Harken,
I have a question for you. What made you stay with All Messed Up ?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> Harken,
> I have a question for you. What made you stay with All Messed Up ?


That is a big question. One, I suppose, we are working through. I want to acknowledge it, and beg off from answering for now. I’ll answer to AllMessedUp, best I can. For the sake of this forum, I will simply note that AllMessedUp has to ask herself the same question. Both of us, everyday. That was one of the big awakenings for me. I had always assumed marriage and family were stable and permanent. Safe places. But no, marriage and commitment are decisions you make every day. Until you don’t. This realization presented as we were walking out of one our atrocious marital counseling sessions in April. Existential stuff.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

I absolutely understand.
Well, you should work on having the real answer to that question. I hope both of you reach it soon.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

AMU, when Harken first came to TAM, about a month after I did, he was so hurt, angry and broken.

AMU, I think you are like my wife. She had no idea how much her affair hurt me. None whatsover. One of the reasons for this is that she is a High Functioning Asperger's.

Why could you not understand Harken's pain?:scratchhead:


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Am contributing now for reasons I'm not really sure of...

Have read this thread, as well as others started by HB and AMU. The conversation between the two sounds like a sustained primal scream to me. The impression I have from HB's writing is that he is verbally dexterous (in earlier days, he might have been called glib, but that word no longer captures the pathos here). If this impression is at all correct, he would also be expected to act out his pain in a very verbal way. So maybe his talking about the A is part of what he really needs now to begin to heal.

I feel very much for both of you, but mostly for HB, who sounds deeply wounded and has every legitimate reason to howl, imo. I'm one of the many here wishing you some peace of mind as time goes by.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

What is interesting about this thread is how much great advice has been given.

What is also quite evident is how hurt you both are from AMU's Affair.

AMU - 7 weeks is not very long for HB to be angry. 

HB - you are a cake eater too in a way because if you have been waiting on the Blackberry text messages to decide to R or D and they are not retrievable you are sitting on a fence.

You two need to stop hurting each other. That is quite clear.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Let me get this straight, sorry if I'm dense but this affair never went physical right?

She clearly wants to R.

I know it's hard HB, but you need to save the affair talk or the anger for IC or one close friend who can be there for you. Even if it's cathartic to tell the world, IT WILL DRIVE HER AWAY, and you will no longer have a choice of R vs D.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> That is a big question. One, I suppose, we are working through. I want to acknowledge it, and beg off from answering for now. I’ll answer to AllMessedUp, best I can. For the sake of this forum, I will simply note that AllMessedUp has to ask herself the same question. Both of us, everyday. That was one of the big awakenings for me. I had always assumed marriage and family were stable and permanent. Safe places. But no, marriage and commitment are decisions you make every day. Until you don’t. This realization presented as we were walking out of one our atrocious marital counseling sessions in April. Existential stuff.


I'll bet you still love her, don't you? That's why betrayal hurts so bad. When the one we love does that to us.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-cheater-2-kids-need-help-64.html#post1044128

This is a link to a post in another thread. 

HB, I'm afraid youu are undermiming your attempt to fix/heal your family.

BTW are you in IC? You need a counselor qualified to treat PTSD. 

I also feel like you are attacking any one here that does not agree with you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

As a matter of fact, you should read almostrecovered's thread about his succesful reconcilliation.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

chapparal said:


> BTW are you in IC? You need a counselor qualified to treat PTSD.


Yes and yes.



chapparal said:


> I also feel like you are attacking any one here that does not agree with you.


Well, yeah. Because they are wrong. 

More seriously, I love my wife. She is a good person. And she has a lot of anger. I do not see anything to be gained from bickering in this forum.

When I see a statement that I believe is untrue or misleading, and others in the forum run with it and repeat that assertion as if it were established fact and offer advice or rebuke on that basis, I feel that I should set the record straight. Or at least provide omitted context. In my view, advice from that point forward would otherwise be tainted. I have not attacked my wife on these boards. I have frequently defended her. I have tried not to engage in tit for tat, but simply to respond to what she may have said about me or my behavior when I feel it is leading the conversation astray. Maybe I should just let it go.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Morituri posted this as poated before that. Just taking a shot, you might check it out.

Originally Posted by Stephanie Anderson, Editor-in-Chief, Marriage Sherpa 

3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger

Have you been cheated on and since turned into an “angry” person?

The majority of people who have been cheated on will experience anger as of the many emotions they feel after finding out about their spouse’s affair. And for some, they find that, where they were once a happy person, they now feel angry all the time—and people are noticing.

Today’s blog will help you, if you’ve been cheated on, to defuse post-affair anger 3 different ways, as well as offer an explanation for why anger is lingering. And if you haven’t been cheated on but still experience bouts of anger in your relationship with your spouse, the same tips can help you, as well. Read on…

Why Post-Affair Anger May Linger

You’ve been cheated on—you have every right to be angry. For your spouse to betray you by developing a sexual relationship with someone else is the worst kind of double-cross.

You’re hurt, humiliated—and feel a deep sense of anger that your spouse could do this to you, and that anger doesn’t seem to let go. It’s tearing you apart inside, literally, causing sleepless nights, changed appetite and hostile, negative thoughts.

Anger is a normal emotion and nothing to be ashamed about. We all experience anger at times, unless you’re a saint. But if anger is clinging to your life and coloring your world a dark shade of gray, you need to find a way to let it go.

If it is the result of your spouse’s betrayal, the betrayal itself may have taken place months ago, but the anger still lingers today. There’s a point where your anger can become chronic—a bad habit—and you become what people refer to as an “angry person.”

One explanation for why anger can become chronic is because there is some issue that remains unresolved. It could be that your spouse is not being remorseful or hasn’t completely cut ties with the paramour. Or, it could be that you have not given yourself the time, space and attention to work through and process all of your negative emotions.

After you found out about your spouse’s affair, have you:

1- Been acknowledging and working through the post-affair anger?

2- Trying to ignore, sidestep or otherwise tamp down those angry feelings?

3- Allowing the angry thoughts and emotions to take over, unchallenged?

If you are working through the anger, then you are on track for being yourself once again, taking pleasure in life and feeling positive.

But if you have been ignoring your anger, it remains below the surface, festering and growing. If anger has taken over and become chronic—and you allow this state to go on—then you are heading into becoming an angry person who is recognized for their anger instead of for your true, underlying personality.

Next, I’ll share with you how to defuse anger so you can begin to heal.

The 3 Different Ways to Defuse Anger

If you have tried to ignore anger in hopes it goes away, or allowed it to invade your life to the point that it defines you, I want you to try any or all of the following three methods for defusing anger. When you’re caught up in the post-affair, emotional maelstrom—you need a life buoy to cling to until you get to safety. These methods will help pull you safely from the turmoil you currently find yourself in to a place where you can once again feel solid ground beneath your feet.

Anger Defuser #1: React to Angry Thoughts Immediately

When you experience an angry or hostile thought, don’t let it slip past without a reprimand or challenge of some kind. Otherwise, angry thoughts can begin to feel a little too comfortable invading your mind and hijacking your emotions any time they like.

Angry thoughts serve a purpose—to let you know that something isn’t sitting right with you—so acknowledge that, but also challenge the thought itself: on what basis is this thought coming forward? Is it steeped in truth, or the work of imagination? Is it something that is true all the time, or in just one or two instances?

Anger Defuser #2: Cool Down Using Distractions

When you feel angry thoughts taking over, distract yourself with something else. Some people swear by exercise, working up a sweat and letting the anger ebb away. Others pick up a book, turn on the television, or cook. It’s difficult to focus on angry thoughts when your attention is needed elsewhere. And it is much more pleasant to focus on something that makes you happy until the anger passes.

Anger Defuser #3: Catch Anger Early

Often, we allow anger to simmer and then it boils over into a rage. At that point, the horse is out of the barn and difficult to lead back.

When you feel anger simmering, write out what is going on inside instead of waiting for it to build and then lashing out. Most people have a negative feeling about themselves after lashing out in anger, and you do not want to heap more negative feelings on yourself as you are trying to heal from post-affair pain or otherwise work toward saving your marriage.

My best to you as you work to defuse anger and heal.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks. I have. It is a good post and one I can benefit from. So you know you are not slipping, you posted it on my original thread. And I appreciated it then too.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks. I have. It is a good post and one I can benefit from. So you know you are not slipping, you posted it on my original thread. And I appreciated it then too.


Oh' there is no doubt I am slipping, I just try to manage. And my keyboard is dyslexic.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> This realization presented as we were walking out of one our atrocious marital counseling sessions in April. Existential stuff.


I thought I should clarify on describing the counseling sessions as atrocious. I enjoyed them. I looked forward to them. I counted the days between them. Those were the only times AllMessedUp and I could really talk for a while. I liked counselor Bob. He pushed back and made me think. He did not take my side on anything. He led me to greater understanding of impermanence and change. Inadvertently, he may have hastened some of that. Pur discussions were animated, but I thought they were honest and working toward understanding and reconciliation. Invariably, toward the end of each session, AllMessedUp would announce hopelessly but without emotion that she felt more distant from me than ever before. Discouraging, confusing. But allowed me to begin to understand that we were experiencing different realities.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

chapparal said:


> As a matter of fact, you should read almostrecovered's thread about his succesful reconcilliation.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html


Thanks, Chap - read the entire story back in July and was very moved by his story.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today-17.html#post940523


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

HB and AMU,
How are things going?
I'm hoping you have found a way to move forward together and agree that the love you have can overcome the anger and hurt that has accumulated from the EA and it's aftermath.

Hoping the best.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

dogman said:


> HB and AMU,
> How are things going?
> I'm hoping you have found a way to move forward together and agree that the love you have can overcome the anger and hurt that has accumulated from the EA and it's aftermath.
> 
> Hoping the best.


Thanks, Dogman, for the support. Not sure we're going to find our way through this. Significant number of affair discussions and name calling by Harken in front of the kids since our last posts - getting worse instead of better on that front. I have said in the past that his claim to want to reconcile has felt like words alone - his actions were saying otherwise and it continues to get worse instead of better. It takes two to reconcile and his heart isn't in it. He took his wedding ring outside this afternoon and literally pounded it into a strip of gold. Good indication of how important the marriage is in his mind. Sad time.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> Thanks, Dogman, for the support. Not sure we're going to find our way through this. Significant number of affair discussions and name calling by Harken in front of the kids since our last posts - getting worse instead of better on that front. I have said in the past that his claim to want to reconcile has felt like words alone - his actions were saying otherwise and it continues to get worse instead of better. It takes two to reconcile and his heart isn't in it. He took his wedding ring outside this afternoon and literally pounded it into a strip of gold. Good indication of how important the marriage is in his mind. Sad time.


I'm sorry to say that the impact of betrayal would do that to any man or woman.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> Thanks, Dogman, for the support. Not sure we're going to find our way through this. Significant number of affair discussions and name calling by Harken in front of the kids since our last posts - getting worse instead of better on that front. I have said in the past that his claim to want to reconcile has felt like words alone - his actions were saying otherwise and it continues to get worse instead of better. It takes two to reconcile and his heart isn't in it. He took his wedding ring outside this afternoon and literally pounded it into a strip of gold. Good indication of how important the marriage is in his mind. Sad time.


AMU

I agree that venting in front of the kids is just flat out wrong. But his pounding of the ring is an indication of where your mind was regarding the importance of your marriage a few months ago.

And HB is really feeling it. Was your business time away good for you?

Was your business time away good for him?

Any idea what is setting HB back from R?

HM64


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

I agree that venting in front of the kids is just flat out wrong. But his pounding of the ring is an indication of where your mind was regarding the importance of your marriage a few months ago.

And HB is really feeling it. Was your business time away good for you?

Was your business time away good for him?

Any idea what is setting HB back from R?

HM64[/QUOTE]

HM - I was away for three nights in Sept for work - a trip that I do quarterly and have for years. I invited him to go, he wanted to go, talked about combining it with a business trip himself and then decided he didn't want to do it. I called him and texted him regularly, yet most messages were ignored. 

I don't know what is setting him back from R - a lot of anger and resentment. Just this morning he was bringing up the past 10 years. Yes, things have been bad for a long time for BOTH of us, but he is unwilling to commit to starting afresh, looking forward. I am not asking or suggesting that the past be ignored. But I also don't think an environment where there is constant arguing, lots of drinking, conscience choices to not spend time together. Examples from just the past two days - our family went apple picking Sunday - HB was in a bad mood and said he wanted to drive his 911 by himself and meet us there. I strongly encouraged (some may say begged) him to drive with us, but his comment back was that he didn't want to go through long periods of silence in the car - no desire to spend time together. Thirty minute drive both ways, and he went alone. I drove the van with the four kids. He showed up 20 min after we got there (I suggested we leave together and he said no, he had some more things to do and wanted instead to meet us there) and left as soon as we picked apples, even though the kids and I remained for 45 more min for hot apple cider, donuts, looking through their pumpkins, etc. He brought up AP while picking apples with the kids right there and then left. 

Yesterday I made a lunch date with him in the morning, because I had a 2 hour window between work meetings. When that time was approaching, I asked whether he was going to be ready (he was downstairs and hadn't been up to shower), he said he had gotten focused on some work items and wasn't ready but could be. He spent the next 20 min responding to messages on TAM and then decided he didn't have an appetite and wanted instead to take a run with the dog. When I told him that made me sad, he explained that it was all my fault, because we live by schedules and he was sick of it. I saw it as he chose to spend time with the dog instead of me - he could have gone to lunch (I had suggested a local restaurant with a fireplace since it was a cold, rainy day) but he chose a run with the dog instead. And then he crushed his wedding ring.

He is angry. These two situations are a very good indication of our daily life - one that isn't fun for anyone. There's only so much I can do. I understand if he doesn't want to reconcile - that's a choice that is his to make. We have issues - they go way back. We either choose to tackle them, work through them and try to be a couple or we don't. I want to try, but as I mentioned above, it takes two. We've been in limbo for months and it's not healthy for any of us, the kids most of all. In the past week alone, they've heard their dad talk about mom's affair and heard him call me a b-tch, a lying sl-t, a f-cking **** and a fat cow. After hearing all these words, our 10 year old asked me if we were going to get a divorce. My honest answer was, “Honey, I don’t know – mom and dad have some things to work through and I’m sorry you’ve been in the middle of so much – no matter what, we love you.” She went to bed, but about 5 minutes later I heard her sobbing in her room, so I went in and laid down next to her. She said she didn’t want to have to move again and I said that no matter what happens, sweetie, both mom and dad love you very, very much and no matter what happens between mom and dad, that will never change. HB walked in, saw her crying, heard me telling her that how much we both love her and said (seemingly to me out of nowhere) “I’m not putting myself first, you did with your affair – oops, I said that word again.” I gave our daughter another hug and left the room. I just can't see how this is good for anyone, especially the kids.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Harken banks if half of what your wife has said here is true , you are a consumate a$$----. I cannot believe the betrayed spouse can inflict more damage to the family than thean the wayward spouse.

You are abusing your childeren and should be reported to child protective services.

You literally need to have your head examined by a profeessional.

I cannot believe how disappointing your behavior is. This is beneath anyone.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

As I have said before, I don't see much to be gained from our bickering in this forum. I will engage here only enough to defend my character a bit. 

Apple picking: something had happened between us immediately prior to the trip that was upsetting to me and as a result I felt that I needed to clear my head, that the car ride together at that moment would be toxic and that it would be better for everyone if I went separately. Plus it was a beautiful day for a drive in the country and I had just gotten the car out of the shop. I thought it would be therapeutic and certainly would have been happy to take the older girls for the ride. I thought that by the time we got to the orchard I might been able to get myself to a more positive frame of mind.

Re "We've been in limbo for months and it's not healthy for any of us, the kids most of all. In the past week alone, they've heard their dad talk about mom's affair and heard him call me a b-tch, a lying sl-t, a f-cking **** and a fat cow. After hearing all these words, our 10 year old asked me if we were going to get a divorce."

I think this piece conflates a few events. A few days ago we were having a conversation that I would not have characterized as an argument in which we at one point I tried to make the point that AllMessedUp has for several years said things to the children about me that were intended to inflict damage. Our voices weren't raised, I was not upset or angry. Her response was "Well you are _________. If it's true, why can't I say that you are _______." I kind of sighed and said in response, "OK, fine. Your a b!tch, a c*nt, and a fat cow." 

Suffice it to say, AllMessedUp and I have differing perspectives on all of this. All of it. From the vantage of her perspective she is a victim and I am an insufferable ass.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Harken banks if half of what your wife has said here is true , you are a consumate a$$----. I cannot believe the betrayed spouse can inflict more damage to the family than thean the wayward spouse.
> 
> You are abusing your childeren and should be reported to child protective services.
> 
> ...


Dude, she threatened to call the police on our 5 year old this morning. The suggestion that as between the two of us I am abusive is preposterous.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Re "We've been in limbo for months and it's not healthy for any of us, the kids most of all. In the past week alone, they've heard their dad talk about mom's affair and heard him call me a b-tch, a lying sl-t, a f-cking **** and a fat cow. After hearing all these words, our 10 year old asked me if we were going to get a divorce."
> 
> I think this piece conflates a few events. A few days ago we were having a conversation that I would not have characterized as an argument in which we at one point I tried to make the point that AllMessedUp has for several years said things to the children about me that were intended to inflict damage. Our voices weren't raised, I was not upset or angry. Her response was "Well you are _________. If it's true, why can't I say that you are _______." I kind of sighed and said in response, "OK, fine. Your a b!tch, a c*nt, and a fat cow."


The children were not present for this conversation. They have heard us argue other times. The incident with our 10-year old followed a shouting match that they would have overheard. Some time later that night I was passing by the 10 year old's room and heard her sobbing to AllMessedUp while they lie together in the 10 year old's bed "I don't want to live in a different house. I want to live here." Naturally I was curious and concerned about the conversation to that point.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Your poor kids. Behaving this way around your children is child abuse.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

karole said:


> Your poor kids. Behaving this way around your children is child abuse.


You don't know the half of it, sadly. Since I have now waded into this, I will add that the kids, each of them individually and all of them together, get screamed at several times a day. Full on out of control rage. Frightens me to see it. Would frighten you too. Several times a day. Every day. Today included. Name calling, dressing down, mokcery, humiliation, physical threats and even some unloving contact. So, I am not the only one who gets the sh!t kicked out of me around here.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Is it possible she is still in the affair? Where does all this rage come from and why is it directed at the kids?

An aside but may be relevant. I had a relative (m-i-l) staying with us a few years ago. I was constantly irritated and annoyed by her to the point that no matter what she did, I ascribed some evil intent to. I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time. It took me venting to my mother about mil, and for her to point out to me that "she could do no right in my eyes." Everything she did or said, I filtered through my high level of irritation at her. It had turned our home into a toxic place and made it very uncomfortable for my husband for awhile. It took some time and a concerted effort on my part to not think of her in such a harsh manner and to treat her better, but eventually, we were able to be friends again. And, she did still irritate me a lot, but I began to think of her behavior and comments as being clueless (which was closer to the truth) rather than mean. 

So, I mention that whole story because it sounds to me like AMU has the same thing going on with her. Harken, you are the bad guy. There is nothing you can do to not be the bad guy, as long as she has cast you in that role. Every action and word is filtered through that lens, and you will always come up in the wrong, until she decides to remove that filter. 

I've got my fingers crossed for you and the kids that she'll take a long look in the mirror and choose to be a better person for her family.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Dude, she threatened to call the police on our 5 year old this morning. The suggestion that as between the two of us I am abusive is preposterous.


This is ridiculous - our 5 year old refused to go out for the school bus and said she wouldn't go to school. I explained that it was against the law not to go to school. Since HB wants to share, I'll share the wonderful police experience he recently put all of us, including the kids, through.

This occurred on Sept 16th - our 12th anniversary. I gave HB a heartfelt anniversary card along with a “gift” that I had hired a family friend to take our family’s portraits this fall. He read the card, said no thanks and threw the card across the room. I sat there hurt and stunned. He walked out of the room and then later returned and asked me to put down my book and said he just wanted to lay down and hug me. I put down my book and said that it was very hurtful for him to yell and be so hurtful and then want to “kiss and make up.” He said “just come here, grabbed my arms and tried to pull me toward him.” He was grabbing my arms very tight and said, “Please don’t squeeze me like that – if you put bruises on my arms again, I will file a police report.” 

(Note - on Sept 1st, there was yelling/fighting between us where our oldest was bawling and I wanted to take the girls to his parents so they we could cool off and calm down our daughter. HB blocked me several times to keep me from leaving including grabbing my arm and telling me I couldn’t leave and for the third time since this started back in July, left fingerprint bruises on my arm where he squeezed me - this time I took pictures. I grabbed at and scratched his neck to let me go/let me through. He let me get out the door, two of our daughters got themselves into the car and I put our 3 year old in – he then stood in the open front door of my car and told me he was not getting off the car, I was not going to leave, demanded that the kids get back inside and after about 15 minutes of this, the kids gave up and went inside. I wasn’t going to leave them alone with HB, who was clearly intoxicated, so I went back inside.) 

Back to the 16th, he jumped out of bed, “Said, that’s it, we’re done” and stormed out of the room. Several minutes later he came back in and said, “ Go ahead and call 911.” I said I was never intending to call 911, that I had said I would go to the police station to file a report if he bruised me again. He said, “You want to tell them I’m abusive, go ahead and he walked over and set the phone down next to me. I didn’t move, so he picked up the phone and dialed 911 and handed me the phone and I hung up. The operator called right back, he answered the phone, said “My wife has a complaint” and handed me the phone. I explained that my husband and I were having an argument, that he had dialed 911, that I did not want or ask him to and that we were all fine and didn’t need to respond. However, by law they are required to respond, and two police cars pulled into the driveway. HB went out to speak to them and then I went outside as well, hoping to spare the kids the situation. After talking to the officer, he told me he wanted to talk to them as well (I think because they witnessed the awful situation on 9/1, but I told the officer I did not want to file a complaint about that), so I brought them outside. After talking to both HB and me again, and after I assured him I was OK, we would stay at the house and that I didn’t want anything to happen to HB, he decided not to talk to the girls. And unfortunately, all the girls witnessed the police at our house over a domestic dispute. This is a mess, has been a mess, but I have felt like I couldn't post as I know that this is little to no tolerance on this board for a WS.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I think this piece conflates a few events. A few days ago we were having a conversation that I would not have characterized as an argument in which we at one point I tried to make the point that AllMessedUp has for several years said things to the children about me that were intended to inflict damage. Our voices weren't raised, I was not upset or angry. Her response was "Well you are _________. If it's true, why can't I say that you are _______." I kind of sighed and said in response, "OK, fine. Your a b!tch, a c*nt, and a fat cow."
> 
> Suffice it to say, AllMessedUp and I have differing perspectives on all of this. All of it. From the vantage of her perspective she is a victim and I am an insufferable ass.


I've actually started keeping a journal so that I can record this situations in real time - here is what happened:

HB comes into our room to talk about name calling and says that he knows he shouldn’t do it, but says that he isn’t the only one who is name calling, telling me I’ve called him names before too. I ask him what I’ve said and he says you’ve called me an alcoholic. I said, yes, I have at times said I felt you were an alcoholic, we have discussed why and I still think you are, so why can’t I say that? His response was “Fine, I think you are a fat cow, a sl-t, a b-tch and a ****.”


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I don't think this is productive. Needless to say, I do not agree with AllMessedUp's portrayal of events. Re the police, I felt her threat to go to the police was absurd and manipulative, so I called her on it and said, fine, you want to call the police, I'll save you the trouble. I have a copy of the incident report for anyone interested in our dirty laundry. I have sent it to Dig, because I was in email contact with him that night and thought I should give him some independent verifiable data point on the incident so he did not simply have my say so of how f*cked up it was.

I have never struck my wife or anyone else for that matter. I have never intentionally caused her physical harm or even discomfort. The night she refers to I felt she was engaged in manipulative theatrics and using the kids as pawns. I wanted it to stop. I wanted everyone to stop and go to bed. It is infuriating to feel that I have to defend myself against the absurd suggestion that I am a physical threat. That was part of why I was so pissed off at it and dialed the police for her when she raised the threat on the 16th.

Also, I would dispute that I was intoxicated on either occassion. The police incident report is express on this point noting that I "was not exhibiting any signs of intoxication."


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I've actually started keeping a journal so that I can record this situations in real time - here is what happened:
> 
> HB comes into our room to talk about name calling and says that he knows he shouldn’t do it, but says that he isn’t the only one who is name calling, telling me I’ve called him names before too. I ask him what I’ve said and he says you’ve called me an alcoholic. I said, yes, I have at times said I felt you were an alcoholic, we have discussed why and I still think you are, so why can’t I say that? His response was “Fine, I think you are a fat cow, a sl-t, a b-tch and a ****.”


AMU, you have had sidebars with the children over the years in which you said your said "your father is an alcoholic" and given them a few other choice adjectives. My point was that you have for years made deliberate statemetns to the children intended to inflict damage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have not commented much at all on this thread & will probably regret doing so now.

I realize that this is an anonymous forum & you should theoretically be able to vent, but what AMU is doing here is, in my opinion, immature and inappropriate. She is managing to compound the hurt of her A by airing dirty laundry in ways that are unnecessary. Shaming her H, even anonymously, is not part of a reconciliation. She wounded him egregiously & now wants people here to know that in her opinion he's a bad father, etc. He now feels that he needs to respond because she keeps slinging the arrows.

Some things are too private even for the anonymity of a place like this, imo.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You two need to talk to Carlton and find out who his counselor is. I think he said the counselor was not working in person but by phone or online.

The two of you are destroying your kids and each other. This can't go on.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> I have not commented much at all on this thread & will probably regret doing so now.
> 
> I realize that this is an anonymous forum & you should theoretically be able to vent, but what AMU is doing here is, in my opinion, immature and inappropriate. She is managing to compound the hurt of her A by airing dirty laundry in ways that are unnecessary. Shaming her H, even anonymously, is not part of a reconciliation. She wounded him egregiously & now wants people here to know that in her opinion he's a bad father, etc. He now feels that he needs to respond because she keeps slinging the arrows.
> 
> Some things are too private even for the anonymity of a place like this, imo.


What I see is two people that are both stirring the pot. They are not going to get over this without professional help. This has turned into a contest of wills that can have no winner. The fallout is resting on their childrens shoulders now. Anyone can sit and write all the excuses and rationalizations they want given time but that doesn't make either one right.

Call a truce. Seek help.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

There has been a pattern in the threads where AMU wants to take a few gratuitous swipes and land a few jabs and have not wanted to engage except to try to correct the record or set a thread back on course. There is nothing to be gained from it. I will repeat, the suggestion that as between me and AllMessedUp, I am abusive is absurd. Certain posters have wanted to leap in and chide and berate me based AMUs swipes and that has been also been a part of why I have from time to time responded.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

He said she said, is obviously getting you no where. Try a new tack.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

All Messed Up, Did you say "We are at an extremely unhealthy place"? You pulled out a .45 cal SemiAutomatic Handgun, put in a full clip, and pulled the trigger on your marriage. Your husband is reacting to the gun play that you brought on! ...........I am going to stop here...... Wait I do have a question, What was the worth to you of your marriage, your husband, your four children, What was it worth? Just asking. And thank you for having the b#lls to join this forum. David


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Is it possible she is still in the affair?


No, I don't think so.



Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Where does all this rage come from and why is it directed at the kids?


I have some theories. A lot, I think, springs from some deep and unresolved emotional trauma from events in the past, many years before we met. Now we are way off topic.


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## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Eh, sort of. My wife lied to me plenty in those first 3-4 weeks after DDay.
> 
> For example, I had two DDays. After claiming NC for about 3 weeks, she began texting him again and I had to call my cell carrier to find out. Then, I let her say her last "goodbye" text to him. Then, I saw she kept this text and the OM's response on her phone a week later. I asked her if she still had this on her phone. Said no she didn't. Then I shoved the phone in her face. That was the last lie I caught. Don't think there have been more, but who knows.
> 
> As far as bringing it up - she was reasonably open to this, but I did get the "you'll always be punishing me" line from her a couple of times.


Sorry Gabriel but with much love and respect I think your wife tries to manipulate you with this "you'll always be punishing me" thing. I know mine tried for a while. Only when they can accept that: they were the wrong doers, we need to vent and need a support system and that what they did does not go away with a months work or by not mentioning it, do I believe there is a REAL room for reconciliation. Otherwise we are just letting them get by with whatever they want and that is not a healthy relationship for either one.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> No, I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> I have some theories. A lot, I think, springs from some deep and unresolved emotional trauma from events in the past, many years before we met. Now we are way off topic.


If I called my wife a b!tch, c*nt etc. You would see rage here too. Just saying.

Since the both of you can't do it at the same time, one of you is going to have to cowboy up, be the better person, and stay cicil no matter what the other does.

Like Carlton's adviser said, this week you have to be friendly with each other and you can't talk about the relationship at all.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> There has been a pattern in the threads where AMU wants to take a few gratuitous swipes and land a few jabs and have not wanted to engage except to try to correct the record or set a thread back on course. There is nothing to be gained from it. I will repeat, the suggestion that as between me and AllMessedUp, I am abusive is absurd. Certain posters have wanted to leap in and chide and berate me based AMUs swipes and that has been also been a part of why I have from time to time responded.


I can see this pattern from the thread. My reaction is also that there is nothing to be gained from it. The details are better left to a professional counselor who will listen confidentially.

No matter what, I wish the two of you luck going forward.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

chapparal said:


> If I called my wife a b!tch, c*nt etc. You would see rage here too. Just saying.
> QUOTE]
> 
> The rage goes back a decade at least. I was a punching bag for years. Then the kids were too. Then I started to yell back a little bit.


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## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> It sounds like you guys are just mudslinging now. There is a lot of resentment built up between you, and it doesn't seem to be improving at all. I think you are at DEFCON 1, and need to assess what you are going to do about it, whether it be constructive healing, or separation/divorce. What is happening now is not healthy.


Gabriel I agree but I do believe this is perfectly normal when we discover the lies, the ugliness and the betrayal. To NOT react and let your WS do as they please is not natural and not healthy. I do not agere with some of the things Harken did, if he did them, but I understand where he comes from. Sometimes our judgement gets so clouded we loose sight and may do stupiod things just trying to get our WS back and the truth is space is not bad at certain points and the only come back at their own will and when they realize all they ever needed is us and their families (no tricks no outside contact no nothing else).
If they have only been 3 months down the road and 7 weeks form knowing it all he is still in the I may be going nuts phase and All messedup needs to understand this or step away.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Can't the two of you work out some way to at least be civil in front of the children? Have some compassion for their welfare. If you can't control yourselves, send them to a grandparent to stay until the two of you can get your emotions under control - at least in front of them. Your kids should be your number one concern.


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## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I've been reading posts every day for eight weeks on this board and posted very little, when I was seeking advice. I had asked Harken whether he would discuss with his IC whether she felt that sharing our affair in the public was helpful to moving us forward and he chose to ask this board, which is why I have added my perspective to the situation because I am honestly interested in the feedback. Harken and I are openly discussing the issues constantly and I guess I'll leave it up to him to say whether he feels I've been remorseful. I haven't felt it was my duty to prove my remorse on this board - I think I owe that to my husband through my words and actions. I absolutely regret everything I did and feel terrible about the pain and hurt I have put my husband through. The first two times we were intimate after I shared with him all the details of my affair I burst into tears because I was so humbled that he would be willing to take me in his arms. I realize the risk I put on our marriage, our family and my vows to my husband. Should Harken decide he wants to commit to reconciliation, I will never ever put myself or our marriage at risk again. And to clarify, I am not and have never suggested that Harken "get over it." I am respectfully asking that he allow us to try to take some steps, even baby steps, toward a future together.


Sweetie if this is all true you have got to understand that the pain does not go away that fast and our minds, as the BS, are running mental pictures all the time. This definetly does not mean you guys have to verbally abuse each other, but it may happen (for me I just stepped away from it).

In my csae it has been 10 months from Dday and quite frankly I have no idea how come the madness and the rage went away, but it did. Granted we have been separated for that time and focused my life on me and my child, not the WS. Maybe this is something Harken should consider. Sometimes things happen when they have to not when we want them to. Now my WS seems to be dying without me and I am numb, horrible but true. I am not mad at him, neither do I miss him or anything nor does his suffering make me happy but there is nothing I can do now. It is his job to make me fall in love with him again, which will be your goal as well.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

May I ask you both, do you love each other?


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi Harken and AMU,
Clearly this is a lot bigger than just the EA. there are issues that go way back and resentments that are growing. Its my opinion that almost all interaction between you both has to stop without a MC present until you both learn how to function together without venting quite so much. That level of emotion is not productive at this point.
It seems strange to me that there is such a difference in the relating of these past events.
I know what sits like to be a punching bag, and no matter how much you love someone there is a limit to how much you can absorb. I also know what it's like to do the punching and that on
Yleaves a bad feeling in your gut that never goes away.

Limit interaction, get serious MC. No matter which way you decide to go.
Sincerely wishing you guys the best. -dogman


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Harken, AMU,
I sincerely apologise if I've made this worse in any way.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

...there is just so much damage going on here, that it is difficult for anyone, either on the inside or outside, to know how to suggest a fix, or more importantly, what to try to fix first. You two need a triage in your relationship....I would STRONGLY urge you both to make the first attempt to be your children....they ARE being damaged, and don't either of you start making claims as to who is doing it first or worst. HELP THEM NOW.....THEY NEED TO FEEL SAFE!!! (emotionally that is)

You are obviously both highly intelligent and educated, no doubt in that Mensa class of folks.....and working as well in a field where effective ability in confrontation is an advantage. Too bad you are now in a position that you two are blunting yourselves against each other. It is also called out-thinking yourselves......I unfortunately consider this to be my worst trait and responsible for my greatest downfalls...but I at least acknowledge it and try not to let it rule my life. And no I do not belong to Mensa....think they are a bunch of snots...

Both of you....stop trying to win

....stop trying to punish

and HB.....no matter what your feelings are about the booze, time to eliminate it for a while so that it stops being a focus. If you need medication to deal with the stress, get a SMALL dose of something from a shrink on a TEMPORARY basis.

I you were to ask me or listen to me, I would suggest that your second triage item be redeveloping a small measure of trust back into your relationship. If either of you trusted, this crud and back & forth would slow down, and wouldn't be so awful for you to experience and us to read. Neither of you can improve how you are treating the other without starting to trust again....deeds, not words......you both really need to get third party assistance on this in a big way. None of the rest, affair included, is urgent at this point. Mainly because without building on trust first, the rest is not possible.....just more pain, punishment, back and forths.....your marriage will not last much longer if you don't start soon. I have been hopeful for you two since the start.....wish you guys could BOTH give each other an opening to rebuild trust. Neither of you can afford to wait for the other....that is why it is called trust, not certainty. And most importantly....STOP BEING LAWYERS WITH EACH OTHER.....


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

karole said:


> Can't the two of you work out some way to at least be civil in front of the children? Have some compassion for their welfare. If you can't control yourselves, send them to a grandparent to stay until the two of you can get your emotions under control - at least in front of them. Your kids should be your number one concern.


My point is not to air dirty laundry - my point is to show what is happening in our day to day life since the time in mid July when my husband claimed he wanted to reconcile. I have been sharing what is happening in our supposed reconciliation – I was hopeful that you all might provide some advice to him, as he listens to all of you. Our stories are both here and I see these incidents this as part of our story.

I actually reached out to both our parents last night to ask for help. I have suggested to HB that perhaps we separate for awhile to spend some time apart to see if this would help us determine what we both want and whether we truly want to try to make this work, but his response has been if we separate, he will see this as the end, he will date, he will expect me to date and we will divorce. I have suggested finding another place where we can take turns staying – I stay away a week, then he stays away a week and the kids stay here at home for consistency – and that during that time we find time for dates and time alone for the two of us. He says he will not leave the house, he says if I leave he will not in any way encourage the children to go (I have asked whether he will allow me to be with them 50% of the time and he said no, reminding me that he doesn’t have to agree to anything absent a legal binding agreement). He has also told me repeatedly that if he felt he could get sole custody, he would be out of this marriage immediately. 

I am here because I want to save our marriage. But I also think he feels his behavior is justified, that I deserve it. I accepted that for months, but it's been more than three months of the same now with no improvement. I honestly don't know what to do, so once again, I have reached out to this forum, since all of you and your advice are important to him. I appreciate all of your comments and advice.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

HB & AMU,

My wife has accused me of being out of control with my temper, yelling and carrying on like a moron in front of my children.

Did I feel she was right? No.

Did I stop? Yes.

Why? Because I love my wife but more importantly because I love my children and did not want them to see me at my most immature moments.

HB & AMU, you should be ashamed of yourselves. But worse, you are hurting your children.

Stop it now!

Because if you do not you will create little monsters that will behave like the two of you for the rest of their lives. They will not know what a normal or good marriage should be like.

You both clearly need to deal with all your issues.

The love of your children should want to at least give you the motivation to try.

Try to act respectful of each other.
Try to act respectful to each other in front of your children.
Try to help each other heal.

Neither of you have been angels through out your relationship. 

So knock it off with the hate expressed to each other.
Knock it off hurting your family.

You are both toxic. 

Seriously, for two smart, educated professionals you are acting like morons.

Again, you two should be embarassed. Your girls are better behaved than the two of you.

Get some professional help before you both go to jail.

And take a break from TAM. Your back and forth is evident that you both need help.

Peace.

HM64


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

How could separation possibly fix anything like this?? All it would do is increase hostilities and increase lack of trust imho.......conflict avoidance does not fix sources of conflict unless you intend to avoid each other forever.

see if you can use a third party to figure out starting points of agreement, such as.....

priority on children's well being

relationship.....fix or dissolve (yea, this is a big one, but kids still come first)......and frankly, unless the answer to this is yes from both of you, there is no third item.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The advice that Harken gets on TAM is based on collective experience and among other things tells him to definitely not leave his home and to expect that there will be huge emotional highs and lows for a long time.

What AMU will hear from those same experienced people is that she has to help him in any way she can by being completely honest and 'taking' his ups and downs.

This is a miserable time for both of you. Everyone sees and knows that. For AMU, I went through years of trying to maintain a career & raise small children with a husband who was often no better than absentee. Our unhappiness and arguments were epic. But our children were always there, ever wanting their world to be intact and us to be happy with one another.

So we did the grown-up thing. No matter how rotten we felt, we knew we were the grown-ups. We got counseling & inched our way through things. If you think you love your H and want your family to stay together, you'll probably just have to live with things being super-cr*ppy for a while - maybe a long time. But we all have free will & can break cycles like the one you're in. And you really haven't been in this one for very long in the broad scheme of things.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

A couple of words of advice, maybe for the both of you-

You don't always have to be "right."

3 months is not very long. It's been years since the last EA my SO indulged in, and I'm still not 100% onboard in regards to our relationship.

I want to say more but I don't want to "take sides" or whatever. Just realize that there is a lot of work for both parties to do... and, in my opinion, the onus of work is on the WS. That means being supportive, not combative.

Neither one of you has to be right all of the time, even if you are in the right. Pick your battles, if you must.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

dogman said:


> Harken, AMU,
> I sincerely apologise if I've made this worse in any way.


You have not. I cannot express the ways in which the support we both feel from the community, for each individually and for us as a couple and family, helps us in this process.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> You have not. I cannot express the ways in which the support we both feel from the community, for each individually and for us as a couple and family, helps us in this process.


...I can think of a way.......each of you open the door for trusting the other....take that leap of faith......the rest can wait for now.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Heartbreaking, tragic.
I'm not going into this contest. So sad to hear what your children are suffering.
For obvious reasons I fell conected to you Harken. I have to say you a better than this. Way better. I want to believe it. Start proving it to yourself.
Find healthier anger outlets. Quit the booze, yesterday.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> chapparal said:
> 
> 
> > If I called my wife a b!tch, c*nt etc. You would see rage here too. Just saying.
> ...


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Harken Banks said:
> 
> 
> > If this is the indeed the case, the two of you should google anger adrenalin (sp). Anger is VERY addictive.
> ...


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Harken Banks said:
> 
> 
> > If this is the indeed the case, the two of you should google anger adrenalin (sp). Anger is VERY addictive.
> ...


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I have some theories. A lot, I think, springs from some deep and unresolved emotional trauma from events in the past, many years before we met. Now we are way off topic.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have either of you had counseling as the adult children of alcoholics? I have direct experience with the ramifications of that situation and its effects on the lives of everyone close to the alcoholics. The benefits to your family could be enormous.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Have either of you had counseling as the adult children of alcoholics? I have direct experience with the ramifications of that situation and its effects on the lives of everyone close to the alcoholics. The benefits to your family could be enormous.


I have not, but have considered it quite a bit the last couple of years. There is a weekly meeting not far from our house. Thanks for suggesting it Chap.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Have either of you had counseling as the adult children of alcoholics? I have direct experience with the ramifications of that situation and its effects on the lives of everyone close to the alcoholics. The benefits to your family could be enormous.


I have not. My mom started to drink to excess only in the last 7 years (I am 44) and didn't really drink before so it didn't affect me in any formative fashion. I've known my dad to have a well developed and discerning taste for as long as I can remember. But it had always been his taste and tempered and appropriate. Alcohol was not a problem in my childhood or home.


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## giashasa2012 (Aug 16, 2012)

Harken if you think you must stay for the children that's a mistake , i don't believe that you can forgive her , your anger-hate for her hurts your children, to tell them that their mother is a ****sucker thats very low and very damaging for them . 
Split and find a way to be co-parents , for the sake of the children


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

giashasa2012 said:


> to tell them that their mother is a ****sucker


Go away


Edit: I apologize, Giashasa. It was rude of me to tell you to go away. 

I appreciate your taking the time and showing the concern to comment. I had become frustrated with what I take as a pretty serious misapprehension and the seemingly judgmental tone of the posts that follow. Sometimes it seems people skip to the end of the thread or read a single post and ignore context in the rush to offer loaded judgment. Some of this territory is covered earlier in the thread. In places, for example, like this: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/55181-talking-about-affair-2.html#post1046542

Neither AllMessed nor I go to our children tell them hurtful things about their Dad or Mom. So I did not seek out or approach our 10 year-old in the immediate aftermath of learning the extent of the transgression and lies and denial on that terrible night that I remember and say to her “Your Mom had an affair. Do you know what an affair is?” Similarly, I did not go to any of the children to say "Your Mom is a c*********." These were hurtful words exchanged between us during some brutal fights that have been just a small part of the fall out from the affair.

We have 4 children ages 10 and under. We are both busy professionals and yet very involved parents. Our kids are around almost all the time and we are around our kids almost all the time. All of you I am sure would be amazed at the amount of time and energy we both put into our children’s lives, development, and happiness. I expect you would be exhausted just hearing about the past week of activities and commitments alone. AllMessedUp can attest. We go 24/7 without rest. We really don't have any of our own "down time," let a lone time for each other as a couple. Yes, we need to work on that.

We have a tremendous amount going on in our lives and have for years, even before the latest craziness. And a lot of stress. And we take out our frustration and stress on each other way more than we should and way more than either of us would like. We have had some very ugly shouting matches. Our lives, the kids and ours as parents and as individuals, being such an intertwined and interdependent whole, they have been present for some of the nastiness. That is the reality of our life as a big family with young children and a lot going on. We would both prefer to better shelter our children from the tension between us. It is unfortunate the things they have heard us say to and about each other during our fights. (Yes, about each other. I will not unload here.) We should do better and I know we will try. 

Child abuse? No. Life is messy. And beautiful.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by chapparal
> > Have either of you had counseling as the adult children of alcoholics? I have direct experience with the ramifications of that situation and its effects on the lives of everyone close to the alcoholics. The benefits to your family could be enormous.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:



(By the way, it only took me 2700+ posts to figure out how to do a nested quote on this board. It's usually automatically done by the forum software on other boards. for those who are wondering, you just do TWO


> and /QUOTE (with brackets, of course) with the inner "QUOTES" around the quote that the quoter is quoting. Got that? :rofl


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> chapparal said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Chap, my mother, who was a fantastic person with an addition, died from complications from alcoholism when I was 17 - the reason I am a rare drinker. And Harken has a very long history of alcoholism in his family as well.
> ...


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