# The average person



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person? 

When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topIc of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?


----------



## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

They got divorced and became poor.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

southbound said:


> We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person?
> 
> When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topIc of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?


Today, most people are average. Most do not go on exotic vacations, etc. Most do not have white collar jobs.

Now they are most likely not watching MASH and Gunsmoke, but they are watching the latest shows on cable or Netflix.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Southbound, I grew up in the 1950s and people had a party line, one car, ate at home almost all of the time, a lot of wives were SAHM, and vacations were local. I never knew anyone that went skiing but some people went camping of if they went on a longish vacation some stayed at $8 to $10 motels or if they could stay with a relative, that is what they did.

My first travel vacation (I was in second grade) consisted of going to a store on the way to where ever, buying a loaf of bread and a package of sliced cheese to make sandwiches at a road-side state or city owned picnic table. Some gas stations offered free ice water, so that is what we drank sometimes. If I took a woman on a date like that now and did what we did when I was a kid, I would be called crazy.

Now most women work, the couple has 2 cars and maybe a boat or camper, most meals on the road fast food or restaurant meals, couples have several cell phones with data plans, and motels start at $80 and up. Add in cable TV, the internet and online movies, all of the extras drive up the cost of living or more importantly, what people spend. I suppose travelers stay with a few relatives but I hear more and more people staying at motels/hotels. Add up all of the other requirements of life that got upgraded and factor in Real purchasing power hasn't increased that much since the 1980 for the lower middle class and below (the rich got much richer BTW) and you can see money becomes important. 

I am a decent case for not earning even a mediocre salary but I spent what I had wisely and now have an adequate retirement fund. I only bought one new car in my life for $7,950 and that was 10 years ago. It has nothing but a heater, a radio, and wipers.

"To me it isn't the lack of average wage money wise, but how what money a couple has and how the money they do have and how it is spent.

So it isn't always what you earn but it is what you spend.

Money is an important marital topic, no doubt about it.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ah.....

And these fools....

Are not interested, nor following the exploits of the most ordinary man of all.

One who crafted. fought, earned that average life having an average house on a wealthy street.

A man of average height, average looks, unstoppable energy and hope. 

A man with an average college degree, having a somewhat [above] Army career.

A man with an average mind in an average body.

Having two others in his head who rise to the occasion. Is one of three, one of The Triune.
His exploits are done under our noses, done unseen.

He is average to all. But not to me.

SunCMars is a cut above. But not in this world, sobeit in his.

Lilith-


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I guess one has to define what you consider poor or rich. I see a lot of people who make a lot more than my wife and I do who are terrible with money and are swimming in debt. My in-laws are poor by a lot of definitions. Being immigrants who came over from Vietnam during the war without knowing a word of English, they worked a lot of minimum wage jobs. They raised three kids, all went graduated college, two of them went through med school. They had their house paid off at 45 and even gave my wife and I 15k as a wedding gift for down payment on our house. 

So basically you can be poor and live very comfortably. You can make good money and struggle under mounting debt the majority of your life. In my job (wireless) I see plenty of people who by thousand dollar phones and have MK purses with designer cloths on and are late on their bills all the time and constantly complain about the prices of their service. I've had a guy pull up in a $75k Mercedes come in to make a payment arrangement on their bill. Stuff like that. Or how about the kids on free lunch at school while their parents drop them off every day driving an expensive car with 6k rims and tires and custom paint job. In general I think the vast majority of people are incredibly stupid with their money. You can live just fine on a very modest salary in the US and even take vacations and stuff. 

So poor or rich or middle class it doesn't matter in terms of raising and taking care of a family and getting your bills paid on time and eating well. It has a lot more to do with how you choose to spend your money and what importance you place on things like cloths and shoes and cars and vacations and electronics and eating out, and just a ton of stuff and random purchases of things you really don't need. Charging up cards, paying high interest rates, deferring loans, going upside down on your car loans. If you make 60k a year, you can't try and live life like you make 100k a year. Most people still try. That is just my observation at least.


----------



## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

southbound said:


> We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun .


We do? Discuss this?

Let's take the couple who marries at 18 and BOTH have nothing. No help, no trust fund no nada.

40 years later they are worth 500 million.

Neither one of the two considered money at 18 and worked their collective asses off to get to 500 million.


Not every person on the planet is a money grubbing grifter.


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

If you live within your means and don't accrue debt and save some before you know it you can have a comfortable life style.

As far as picking a mate/pertner then i would advise that you know their money style so your compatible in that area. I have heard money is the number one reason for divorce.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I think it is a state of mind more than anything else. I’ve noticed that most people wouldn’t consider themselves anything but average, but I think the “average” state of mind has moved up a few notches from my day. I guess the days of local vacations and cheese sandwiches don’t excite people anymore. People don’t mind being in debt up to their eyeballs anymore either, so that helps too I suppose.


----------



## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

And what is wrong with being "average"

Going to work for Google, supporting your wife and 2.5 kids, paying your taxes- being a decent human being.

SOMEBODY has to be the widget- and pave highways and pickup trash.

What is average about that?

You need a nurse to change your IV when you are dying or your kid is?

Is that Nurse average?

How bout Knid and the Court reporter.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

sandcastle said:


> And what is wrong with being "average"
> 
> Going to work for Google, supporting your wife and 2.5 kids, paying your taxes- being a decent human being.
> 
> ...


Absolutely nothing wrong with being average. I’m just wondering where all the average people gave gone. I consider myself average.


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Lots of average people. they fly under the radar.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

chillymorn69 said:


> Lots of average people. they fly under the radar.


Perhaps that is it.


----------



## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

The entire world less the one percenters are average or below.

Who do you think cleans the one percent toilets, takes care of their kids, cooks their meals AND provides WIFI and hauls their garbage away?

Those average manage to have a marriage , sex and pay their taxes.

I guess I'm missing the point of this thread other than hot chicks don't want "average"

Stop watching Reality TV and go rescue a dog.

Lots of hot chicks- in your zip code- find that a turn on.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think what matters is being honest to yourself about what sort of life you want, and what makes you happy. Money isn't the most important thing by any means, but the amount you have will have a significant effect on your life. 

There are lots of fun things that require money - whether its international travel, nice cars, airplanes, nice jewelry, fancy food. 

Money also buys you time. Shorter commute. Maid service. Less time shopping. Not worrying about repairs, etc. 

OTOH Money will not make you happy. If you are with someone who is not compatible, or who is just a bad person, then no amount of money will give you a good life.


There are also many scales of money. For most of us there are people with more money that we can imagine and peopel with less than we can imagine.


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Seems to me that some have the happiness gene and some don't.

The ones that do are happy no matter what their situation is and the ones that don't are always complaining they could have a loaf of bread under each arm and still complain.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Not sure I relate or see this at all. I am average. Blue collar job, blue collar pay. I truely live below my means though the only expense I have is my house and it’s less than 1/2 my take home pay.

I admit traveling is my one passion and indulgence. But I don’t eat out much, don’t have a Benz and so on. I living frugal means I use the excess to travel the world. 

All this said I have never had problems finding women. Plenty of them who are average and ok with average. Sure I have met a handful looking for the bankroll and BBD but they are welcome to have it. Money has never been the driving force of my life and I never want it to be.


----------



## username77 (Dec 27, 2017)

Money can't buy happiness, but lack of money can make you miserable.

I spent a long time chasing success, I make good money, but it really is an illusion. The more you chase the higher paying job, the nicer home, luxury car, and put yourself in debt, you're in an endless misery inducing cycle. If you live below your means, sock money away, and live debt free in your 1200 SF home you'll be much happier than if you're in debt up to your eyeballs in your 3000 sf home and driving a BMW.

Now I'm just trying to get out of the debt race. I spend some money on hobbies and activities with my family. But I couldn't care less about material possessions or status symbols.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

There is nothing wrong with those people and they are the majority. I personally don’t want to be the “average” or be with someone who is.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

There are people who are happy as is and like to live average and there are people who want to squeeze the most out of life. Also what makes you happy is different than other people. 
My dad is average and is perfectly happy coming home and watching tv, no vacations, and going to the bars a couple times a week to see friends. But I can tell you my mom is miserable, bored, and depressed with this life.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

username77 said:


> Money can't buy happiness, but lack of money can make you miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree. But I think that it’s ok to like nice things. People like certain things and that’s where they spend their money, and they should if it makes the happy. If your a car guy get a nice car. If you love clothes and fashion, shop, if you like vacations go on vacation. The problem is when you need everything nice. People can’t have a nice car, a nice house, nice vacations, the newest phones, their hair/nails/facial done weekly. Things add up. 

I make good money but just started working so I don’t really have money if that makes sense. I live in a 900sq apartment that is decorated amazingly and I have amazing things in it. I love it, I’m super happy with it. I drive a almost 10 year old car because I don’t care about cars. I will take some weekend trips this year but no fancy vacations. I like to dress nice and spend money on nice clothes/shoes. I have some people in my life that look at me and think I live way nicer because of these things but the truth is they bought houses that were more than they could or should get, and fill it up with junk. The majority of their income goes to their mortgage, car, phones, expensive tv crap they have to have. It’s crazy how things add up quickly and you realize you aren’t happy or haven’t really lived.
I love nice things. I love quality. But I’ll take a 900sq apartment amazingly done over a 1500sq filled with crap. I would rather have 4 really really nice pairs of shoes over 20 cheap ones. 5 really nice sweaters over 10 cheap ones. People like to choose quantity over quality and I’m not like that.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Handy said:


> My first travel vacation (I was in second grade) consisted of going to a store on the way to where ever, buying a loaf of bread and a package of sliced cheese to make sandwiches at a road-side state or city owned picnic table.


Reading this brought back some memories. When I was a little kid (early 70s) we traveled half way across the country several times. 

We had what would be called a cargo van today but back then it was simply what vans were. It had one bench seat in the back and behind the benchseat was open cargo space. Dad built a plywood bed frame and put a double mattress in the back. 

When we traveled mom would pack a cooler (Styrofoam back then) with cold meat sandwiches, hard boiled eggs and chicken drumsticks. We would stop and eat at roadside picnic tables or rest areas and at night we would pull into a rest area or some kind of roadside park and mom and dad would get the bed and I would get the bench seat. 

I can remember a couple times simply pulling off alongside the road at night and then peeing in the ditch the next morning. 

One time (circa 1973) the van broke down on a sunday morning. Some guy with a jeep towed us to the local service station which of course was closed on Sundays. The guy with the jeep knew the owner and called him at home from a payphone. The owner came in, looked at the van for few minutes and said he'd have to order parts on Monday. They towed the van around behind the station and he gave us the key to the outside bathroom and said we could camp behind the station until they got the van up and running. We ended up sleeping in a broken down van behind a service station for 2 or 3 nights before they finally got it running again. 

My folks were normal, middle class, hard working, average citizens back then. That is just kinda how the average joe did business back then. 

In today's world, we probably would have been arrested for vagrancy or something for sleeping in a van behind a closed service station at night.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Happiness is an attitude, or perhaps a perspective, but it is also partly determined by genetics. By definition, an average person (a statistical collection) has average happiness. Individual reality has huge variation, though.

I will say, you can be poor and happy, but money can remove many sources of unhappiness. There is also a point where _more_ money does not make you happier, and there are studies to support this.



> Here's how much money you need to be happy, according to a new analysis by wealth experts. The idea that money can't buy happiness has been disproved by science, at least up to a point. Experts say that happiness does increase with wealth, but the correlation peaks at earning $75,000 per year.


https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-happy-according-to-wealth-experts.html

A more detailed and nuanced analysis is here:
https://www.advisorperspectives.com...happiness-revisited-a-household-income-of-75k


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

chillymorn69 said:


> Seems to me that some have the happiness gene and some don't.
> 
> The ones that do are happy no matter what their situation is and the ones that don't are always complaining they could have a loaf of bread under each arm and still complain.


I agree. It seems like some people always want more, more, more, while others are happy with whatever they have. For those that are happy with less, there are many around them who can't understand why they aren't constantly striving for more.  Instead of watching tv in the evenings after work, people can't understand why they aren't using every moment to make more money. 



uhtred said:


> Money also buys you time. Shorter commute. Maid service. Less time shopping. Not worrying about repairs, etc.


It saves time with the things you mentioned, but I have found that a lot of people who have money to do those things spend so much time working to make it.
I'd rather clean my own house than having to spend so much time at the office. 



Wolf1974 said:


> Not sure I relate or see this at all. I am average. Blue collar job, blue collar pay. I truely live below my means though the only expense I have is my house and it’s less than 1/2 my take home pay.
> 
> I admit traveling is my one passion and indulgence. But I don’t eat out much, don’t have a Benz and so on. I living frugal means I use the excess to travel the world.
> 
> All this said I have never had problems finding women. Plenty of them who are average and ok with average. Sure I have met a handful looking for the bankroll and BBD but they are welcome to have it. Money has never been the driving force of my life and I never want it to be.


The traveling probably gives you that edge that puts you in the modern realm. You probably don't travel with cheese sandwiches and cold drumsticks either. :wink2:



oldshirt said:


> Reading this brought back some memories. When I was a little kid (early 70s) we traveled half way across the country several times.
> 
> We had what would be called a cargo van today but back then it was simply what vans were. It had one bench seat in the back and behind the benchseat was open cargo space. Dad built a plywood bed frame and put a double mattress in the back.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. A lot of times when people mention how the "average" person once was, people act puzzled and scratch their heads, but this is a perfect example. I also enjoyed a similar story from Handy. That is similar to how I grew up as well, and I guess I just never forgot those times. Honestly, I probably wouldn't travel that way today either, but I still feel like a "regular guy" and like the thoughts of that kind of life. It doesn't take a lot of bells and whistles to make me happy. 

I realize there is nothing fun about being truly poor and having to wonder where your next meal is coming from and wearing the same shirt everyday. I have never experienced being dirt poor, but as I said, I was average when I grew up, and I can assure you that everyone I grew up around were happy people.

I remember when I was younger, my grandparents lived on a farm and burned wood as their primary source of heat, which was some added chores compared to today. We would go out and cut the firewood ourselves on the farm. One had to keep split it, carry it indoors as needed in winter, tend to the fire, etc. Of course, these days all we do is click a button on the HVAC. That seems like a step up, and I honestly wouldn't want to go back, but I do have a lot of fond memories of those times. It certainly wasn't horrible times. 



katiecrna said:


> There are people who are happy as is and like to live average and there are people who want to squeeze the most out of life. Also what makes you happy is different than other people.


That's true; different things make different people happy. Just because someone lives average doesn't mean they aren't squeezing everything out of life. For them, they are enjoying life as much as the person who travels and has fancy things. I know a lot of people can't understand that, but I believe it is true. So what if one has never seen the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls in person. If they have no desire and it's not burning within them to do so, they are just as happy as the person who has seen them multiple times.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is where understanding your own desires is so important. Personally I would MUCH rather work than do chores at home. Other people feel differently. Both are fine, just be aware of what you do and don't enjoy. 




southbound said:


> It saves time with the things you mentioned, but I have found that a lot of people who have money to do those things spend so much time working to make it.
> I'd rather clean my own house than having to spend so much time at the office.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> Reading this brought back some memories. When I was a little kid (early 70s) we traveled half way across the country several times.
> 
> We had what would be called a cargo van today but back then it was simply what vans were. It had one bench seat in the back and behind the benchseat was open cargo space. Dad built a plywood bed frame and put a double mattress in the back.
> 
> ...


We tried to travel at night because most cars had no air conditioners.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Marc878 said:


> We tried to travel at night because most cars had no air conditioners.


And only had AM radios.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Marc878 said:


> We tried to travel at night because most cars had no air conditioners.


I remember those days. I thought we were uptown when we got a car with AC.

Speaking of money and happiness, I have sometimes thought of how it is the feeling of joy and happiness something generates. For example, we had a B&W tv until I was 12. For Christmas that year, I got a 13" color tv. Wow, the feeling of joy I had was unbelievable. I loved that little tv. Getting to watch all my shows in color and hooking my Atari to it; wow! 

This Christmas, I got a 50" flat screen HD. Is it nice? Sure it is, but it didn't come close to generating that feeling I had inside when I opened that 13" on Christmas morning at age 12. It seems like the more we have, the more we want, and the more it takes to generate that feeling of satisfaction.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

The fear mongering wasn't near as rampant as it is today. I remember traveling as a kid, my mom would leave the trunk space of our mini van empty of bags and suitcases and would lay down a bed of sleeping bags back there. We would play around or sleep or whatever back there. 

When I was 14 I talked my mom into letting me take a bus from Lubbock, TX to Colorado Springs to visit my aunt and uncle and cousins. Colorado was always my favorite place to visit as a kid. Still is. Anyway a parent putting their 14 year old kid on a greyhound bus solo to travel a couple states over would probably be considered child abuse today. Reckless behaviour and poor parenting at the very least. I had a wonderful trip though. Felt like a grown man switching buses and getting out at stops to buy lunch for myself and things like that. Of course I had a wonderful time at my favorite place to visit once there as well. 

I'm trying to show my kids that you can be happy and have a wonderful vacation with almost no expenses. Just food and gas money.  Set up a tent and go hiking and exploring a national forest or state park. Go fishing, canoeing, wildlife watching. Also just enjoy the time on the road visiting different states and seeing sights that don't require you to spend any money. The important part is just spending time together and experiencing new things together as a family.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

southbound said:


> We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person?
> 
> 
> When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topIc of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?


"being poor is no fun".

I will state the summary with a certain amount of force - but don't worry, I will explain it.

Wrong. VERY wrong.

OK, force done.

EVERY study on happiness versus money shows that less money does not lead to unhappiness. There's a "water level". As long a person confidently say they know that they will have a next meal and a place to sleep tonight, people are happy. The average homeless person, when evaluated, is happier than the average middle-income American.

What causes uhappiness? We CREATE A LIST OF NEEDS that gets in the way. The longer our list is, the less likely we will be happy. We are in control of that list, but most of us don't realize it. When the media and the politicians say things that make us THINK that daily shopping is requied - then we believe it. Why do we believe it? We have fallen out of the habit of evaluating what we hear - we listen to the radio, for hours on end, which does not give us time to stop and think "If I believe what that reporter just said, will it improve my life or make it more difficult?" Especially when we hear about "how people act"...we erroneously take this as a prescription.

We must ALWAYS check out assumptions, PARTICULARLY the ones that seem "so obvious to anybody", like "being poor is no fun". I've been poor and jobless and homeless. I had more friends at that time, and they were less judgemental, and they put fewer expectations on me. I miss that. At the time, I wished I could afford a car, or a place of my own - but I did not lack for food, a roof, or friends.

There's nothing wrong with CHOOSING to live in a way that requires more money. But you are demeaning yourself if you then claim that doing so differently would automatically lead to unhappiess.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My mother hassles me and by default my husband about not having middle class toys.

We live in the US these days in an urbanised suburb with pretty good bus and rail transportation. When I was living in London car free already, my mother asked me this convoluted question which I could interpret as "Do people think you're poor if you don't own a car in London."

When I was diagnosed with cancer and therefore could not work, my father offered to pay for my cable but not for my internet. I didn't want cable TV and he refused to pay for an internet connection.

My mother thinks it's strange that we own only one TV but we have about 5 laptops.

My sister lives a very middle class life. She owns an SUV even though she is single and child free. Engages in other consumerist habits, like wearing designer clothes when people don't recognise the difference,that would make my mother happy if she were making more money and were happily married. 

It's topsy turvy world.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

southbound said:


> I’m just wondering where all the average people gave gone. I consider myself average.


Here in the UK, the narrative now is often about "the *gap* between rich and poor", as if there were nobody in the middle. I think it comes down from Marxism: Marx predicted that the rich would get richer and richer, and the poor would get poorer and poorer down to an absolute subsistence level, with nobody in the middle. Pretty much the exact opposite has happened since his time (as with all of his predictions) and there are more "middle class" people here now than ever before, which is a good thing. But a certain political segment has to deny their existence - we don't talk about them - we talk as if everyone either owns a yacht or can barely afford food.


----------



## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

Average Is Over. It's a book by the economist Tyler Cowen. "Tyler Cowen explains that high earners are taking ever more advantage of machine intelligence and achieving ever-better results. Meanwhile, nearly every business sector relies less and less on manual labor, and that means a steady, secure life somewhere in the middle—average—is over."

I work in IT in a Fortune 500 company. The typical person in my department is much better off than the typical breadwinner when I was growing up. Everyone is maxing their 401Ks. They're taking vacations to Europe in their 20s. If I stayed in my bubble, I'd have thought everyone had gotten rich.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

southbound said:


> We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person?
> 
> When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topIc of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?


There are many of us like that still.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

southbound said:


> We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person?
> 
> When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topIc of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?



In my parents day, when my sister and I were babies, Dad got a degree, got paid well for that degree, bought a house, had a car or two and mom stayed at home raising us. When my sister and I entered high school, mom got back into the work force, first part time job and then full time. Dad never spent his money on toys. He spend his money on selling our house and buying a newer one, upgrading our vehicles, planning for retirement, etc. We never had a big color tv until about 1985 and vcr and our first video game system, Super Nintendo. No fancy home theater systems or stereos, no boats, and you get the idea. Dad was smart with his money and with mom working they did well. Dad and Mom retired about 3 years ago now and are financially fine and even sold their place and bought a new house, paid it off and are retired in it. Now they travel and enjoy life but still no boats, big screen tv's or toys. Mrs.CuddleBug and I are both on the same path as my parents.

Kids today graduating from high school can't afford to buy a place, let alone rent. They stay at home while in college / University and then rent a place with friends afterwards. Almost no one can afford to buy a place and only rent. Times have changed a lot in the last 20 years and its only getting worse.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> Kids today graduating from high school can't afford to buy a place, let alone rent. They stay at home while in college / University and then rent a place with friends afterwards. Almost no one can afford to buy a place and only rent. Times have changed a lot in the last 20 years and its only getting worse.



I agree. Kids/young adults today have every toy, nice phones,cars,TVs but no savings, house, or retirement. I don’t know how this happened and why such a change.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> CuddleBug said:
> 
> 
> > Kids today graduating from high school can't afford to buy a place, let alone rent. They stay at home while in college / University and then rent a place with friends afterwards. Almost no one can afford to buy a place and only rent. Times have changed a lot in the last 20 years and its only getting worse.
> ...


Entitlement. Not being shown and taught the value of hard work and being smart with your money by their parents. Constantly comparing yourself to others and having a false sense of what happiness looks like due to social media. 

A lot of blame on the parents the way I see it. Little Jimmy doesn't need a ribbon for coming in last place. Little sally doesn't need an iPhone x because her friends got one and showed it off. Just as much blame on the parents part in comparing their lives via social media, thinking they can be better parents by purchasing more stuff for their kids. 

It seems people think success and happiness is directly related to how many gadgets you have, what kind of shoes and clothes you wear, and what kind of car you drive or house you live in. 

When you look at the suicide numbers and statistics, they actually tell a very different story.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I agree. Kids/young adults today have every toy, nice phones,cars,TVs but no savings, house, or retirement. I don’t know how this happened and why such a change.


I think some of them do it this way as home ownership is so hard to attain so they spend it on fun. They also want the best straight away but the cost of housing here won't stop going up, you need $800k plus to get into a basic house. Fortunately for my kids they will get a huge amount of financial help from me and their Grand Pa so will be able to afford a house.

But as to the OP, average? Not sure what that even means. My wealth is not average but I did not earn it, one of the very fortunate ones to have been born into a wealthy family and been given my inheritance as a divestment from my dad now rather than after he goes. Money does not buy happiness or style but it gives you more options and a big safety net.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

DustyDog said:


> southbound said:
> 
> 
> > We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person?
> ...


I enjoyed your post, and I agree with it. I believe when we stop letting culture dictate our lust of things for happiness, we would be different people.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

We are just fine money-wise.

That said, I squandered a fortune.
I never opened the treasure chest that was given to me at birth. I pushed it aside.

Went for fifty cent pieces instead of diamonds and emeralds.

I was born with a great sense of humor and a great imagination.
And then I was placed in a pressure cooker at home. Much tension.
A crazy environment.

I did not let that tension develop into an artistic direction. Aren't all great artists troubled souls?

Hah!

I was also a good compartmentalist. Shoved those feeling under. Dove into the work force.
Until, I retired. 

Now? 

I hope Grandma Moses can inspire me!

SunCMars-

The other two Triune knuckleheads are limited in their expression.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> I agree. Kids/young adults today have every toy, nice phones,cars,TVs but no savings, house, or retirement. I don’t know how this happened and why such a change.


Hey, wait a minute. Some things do become necessities.

Cellphones are important so that recruitment agencies call applicants on a dime. Quite often, there's no waiting until the applicant "gets home. Wherever they are."

Just like a computer is a necessity. Who on earth these days gets a job without fresh, up to date computer skills?

Car is a necessity. How on earth does one get to a job interview....... let alone to the job itself.

Nice clothes are a necessity. What else do you wear to a job interview?

this is the world that has been built. I don't take responsibility for it.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> katiecrna said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. Kids/young adults today have every toy, nice phones,cars,TVs but no savings, house, or retirement. I don’t know how this happened and why such a change.
> ...


You can get a cell phone for $30 and an additional $30 month. A serviceable car for $1000, and nice clothes for an interview for another $100 and a good computer for another $350. All of this can be had for a summers worth of mowing lawns. 

But the lawn mowing kids of today would rather spend their money on an iphone X and Starbucks coffee (read overpriced diarrhea) every morning, and a new MK purse with matching wallet. Then they sit around and complain about the unfairness and injustice of capitalism.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

*oldshirt
We had what would be called a cargo van today but back then it was simply what vans were. It had one bench seat in the back and behind the bench seat was open cargo space. Dad built a plywood bed frame and put a double mattress in the back.*

That sounds very similar to some of my experiences except my step dad was w WWI veteran, was disabled and drove a 1946 Chevy panel truck. One overnight stop was on the old road next to the new 2 lane hwy. We didn't know what was around us when we stopped after midnight, just went to sleep. When we woke, up way out in the country, here was all of this water with the tops of trees sticking out above the water level. That was something weird and new to me as a 2nd grader.

I worked in a gas station / 6 bay garage and we had some people in cars break down, before getting to our shop. I think they stayed at a motel but what you did would have been OK with my boss. We stocked parts, were open 7 days a week, and worked late to get people on their way.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

My cell phone cost $39 and I pay $105 a year to Tracfone for a 1 yr pre-paid card, that gets me 1200 min talk, 1200 txt, and 12MB or is it 12GB of internet, but I only use about 300 to 600 min of talk time a year and the left over builds up so now i have about 5K min in reserve. . At home and several places, the Internet is free over WiFi so the 12MB/GB doesn't concern me. Texts? I only do that to pick up the grand-kids if they are sick or need to be taken to an appointment, so maybe I do 1 or 2 a month.

There is an electronic recycling place in town that sells referbished older computers (windows Vista or 7 and up) for under $150 and I saw some really food hi-end printers for $75 that had a $150 toner cartridge in it that was almost full.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

It would be 12gb not 12mb. A typical teenager will blow through 12gb in a week just on snapchat alone. 

Old men use trackfone and are the least receptive to cell phones in general. "Back in my day we used to ride our bikes down to Radio Shack to pick up parts for our transistor radio" crowd aren't that into cell phones in my professional experience.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Maybe there are just better things / toys than there were in the past. The cost of computers relative to the cost of real estate has dropped spectacularly, so it makes sense that people buy more computers and less houses.






katiecrna said:


> I agree. Kids/young adults today have every toy, nice phones,cars,TVs but no savings, house, or retirement. I don’t know how this happened and why such a change.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

After growing up poor I decided I better earn money. I lucked into a useless degree in my country and took risks to get something out of it. It worked.

Now I got the McMansion and all the goodies, two super smart kids, and so on. What I found was that to save money you need to earn it first. Capitalism is too smart to let us get away with things. Only means we have is to make more. The way you do that is to improve. 

Tomorrow wife is off to her adventure. I got her a fantastic apartment, high rise, 500 yards walk to work. Some nice furniture from Costco and she's set. I want her to know that I want her to be safe, and focus on herself. I'm not worried about money. 

That's what money does. We're not average, but we arrived penniless 35 years ago. Most of the hard work was predicting the future of tech. We went two for two. Other people pride themselves on picking the right mutual funds, we picked careers.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

TheDudeLebowski, OK 12GB. My grand daughters burn up their allotment of internet data in a couple of weeks and text several times an hour.

I still have one of my 8 transistor radios from the 1960. I got rid of my 33.3 records except 1, junked my 4 or 8 track tapes but I still have several cassettes. I converted all of my music CDs to MP3 files.

Smart phones have their place but to ignore me when I visit someone while they use their smart phone seems rude. I like some things a smart phone offers but I still do not understand why texting is more popular than talking to someone. I don't understand why men text the latest play of a football team to someone not in the room. Same goes for road trips, texting someone every 5 miles saying what mile marker they just passed.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Texting is great. I always hated talking on the phone. Even worse, I hate answering a phone call. I have no idea what you want when you call. Lets cut the small talk and get straight to what you are contacting me for. I don't care how your day is going or what you are doing later. You don't care if I known that stuff, and don't care about my day and how I'm doing and what I'm doing later. So why torture each other? 

That is what texting is all about for me. Boom, lets get on with our day.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Like anything, I’m sure it’s a matter of opinion and personal preference. I guess I’m just old fashioned and still living by past customs. It just doesn’t take a lot to make me happy. My most enjoyable and precious thing time is my time to do as I wish. 

I like my time to be mine as much as possible without being bound to a schedule of activities that have to continually be met. That is more precious and enjoyable to me than a new car, trips, big house, or whatever it may be. 

I have noticed, however, that not many people fit in that category these days.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Reason why its nearly impossible for kids today financially,


- insane rent
- very expensive housing
- food prices
- wages are never catching up and have fallen way behind
- schooling today doesn't pay like it used to and tuition has also gone way up


Cell phones are common and cheap. You don't need a new car or big tv / system.

Basically, either you come from a wealthy family or you're poor.

When I just graduated from high school, not that long ago, housing prices and rent were affordable and wages were still okay. You could save for a while and buy a house or rent. Today, wages are basically the same, housing prices have 3x to 4x increased and rent has 3x to 4x increased.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Handy said:


> Southbound, I grew up in the 1950s and people had a party line, one car, ate at home almost all of the time, a lot of wives were SAHM, and vacations were local. I never knew anyone that went skiing but some people went camping of if they went on a longish vacation some stayed at $8 to $10 motels or if they could stay with a relative, that is what they did.
> 
> My first travel vacation (I was in second grade) consisted of going to a store on the way to where ever, buying a loaf of bread and a package of sliced cheese to make sandwiches at a road-side state or city owned picnic table. Some gas stations offered free ice water, so that is what we drank sometimes. *If I took a woman on a date like that now and did what we did when I was a kid, I would be called crazy.*
> 
> ...


Regarding the bit in bold, most of my first dates in the USA were similar to this. And, they were genuinely enjoyable. I would always say that for several reasons a great first date with a lady is walking her dog.

But, I am also well off, European and educated. It showed I was relateable and down to Earth, I did not have to worry about seeming mundane.

I think there is a great deal in what you write.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Expensive houses depends a lot on where you live. Come to Texas. The middle class is alive and well around here.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Expensive houses depends a lot on where you live. Come to Texas. The middle class is alive and well around here.


Not everyone wants to live in Texas.

If you do, then you have to add firearms to your list of necessities along with computer, cellphone ......


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Expensive houses depends a lot on where you live. Come to Texas. The middle class is alive and well around here.



The other irony here is, I hope you aren't including Houston and other areas affected by the hurricane as one of the more reasonably priced places to live.

There is nothing reasonable about living in an area where the city planners can't be bothered to do anything right. I have a cousin who lives in Fort Worth. he said that Houston had been vetoing municipal fundraising for the purpose of improving the infra structure for a long time.

Wonder how cheap it is to live in Houston now?

The old fashioned wisdom here is that many Texans were apparently being "penny wise and pound foolish."


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Not everyone wants to live in Texas.
> 
> If you do, then you have to add firearms to your list of necessities along with computer, cellphone ......


The awkward moment when you realize your future in-laws are members of the Oath Keepers and have a fridge sized gun safe . He's got some nice Civil War era stuff actually...


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

It’s mostly relative. Cheaper housing = fewer career opportunities. Not all, but most. 

Northern VA is nice, but it’s crazy expensive to live there. Not to mention the traffic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

In relationship to how much $$ = Happiness in life... there was a study done, a documentary on Happiness -







... 





..and 




"Happy" takes us around the world, looking at different people in various economic situations, and, with the help of happiness science, gauging their level of happiness....it makes the compelling argument that once basic necessities like food and shelter are provided for, economic factors have relatively little to do with overall satisfaction in life.

Using a balance of scientific research and fascinating human stories, the filmmakers explore some of the non-material roots of happiness, and in the process, show that while there isn’t a formula for it, everyone can become happier.

Our circumstances, our job, income, social status, age and health accounts for another *10 % *of our happiness. But the really good news is that there is a great deal you can do to make yourself happier, as *40 %* of our overall happiness is determined by intentional behavior. These are things people can do on a regular basis to become happier.










The film points out that you can gain more happiness with exercise, being in nature and adding variety to your life.



> The Search for Happiness .........Happy the movie: Director Roko Belic on Happiness and Empathy
> 
> One of my most profound experiences occurred when I spoke with one of the leading researchers of happiness in the world, Ed Diener, at the University of Illinois. He told me that a person's values are among the best predictors of their happiness.
> 
> ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

We are most definitely "Blue Collar" AVERAGE people/ earners, that sorta lifestyle... as a few posters have pointed out... it matters a great deal how a couple handles money....if they can live *below their means* while starting out ... in order to build a growing savings - so it is there when needed, like a safety net ...how helpful this is... and gives great peace of mind !

Though I always say...NOTHING can prepare us for a health crisis, no amount of money saved, most surely if only blue collar earners...why I feel a good Health insurance plan is imperative - a must - to protect our growing assets even... 

We have never lived paycheck to paycheck, never borrowed outside of our mortgage, never paid interest on a credit card (I specifically look for cards with the highest % back- make a good $400 a year from using them), we've paid cash for every vehicle -would never buy new -to me that is like flushing $$ down the toilet. ...if my Husband wanted to buy a new car.. I would pitch a fight with him... thankfully this will never be an issue in our marriage.. ha ha 

I am not a materialistic woman....I pride myself on finding a good deal, I enjoy buying used anything...my reasoning is this...

That way... when I/we do want something special, to go somewhere that may be costly (example : Taking 5 kids to Disney, or taking a Romantic vacation to the Poconos, that's $450 a night)...the money is there, we don't have to deprive ourselves.....we can even splurge - and we have!..... If we always bought new cars... heck.. we'd never be able to afford these others excursions, that have brought us many wonderful memories & life experiences. 

So it's all about what someone / or a couple wants out of life...what their vision of happiness IS.... For us...it was Living in the country (some privacy, owning some land), having a family of our own, being able to maximize our time together, being able to afford all our bills... maybe that's not reaching for the heavens in ambition, excitement or High success... but it's kept us content.. allowed our lives to be relatively stress free.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We are most definitely "Blue Collar" AVERAGE people/ earners, that sorta lifestyle... as a few posters have pointed out... it matters a great deal how a couple handles money....if they can live *below their means* while starting out ... in order to build a growing savings - so it is there when needed, like a safety net ...how helpful this is... and gives great peace of mind !
> 
> Though I always say...NOTHING can prepare us for a health crisis, no amount of money saved, most surely if only blue collar earners...why I feel a good Health insurance plan is imperative - a must - to protect our growing assets even...
> 
> ...


I can relate. You just gave a great definition of the modern average person that I had in mind when I started the thread. One doesn’t find those people much these days. Everybody is reaching for the stars. 

Having stuff and working all the time was never my goal in life. Like you, I wanted to live in the country and have a stress free life. That is a biggie for me. 

One perk of my job is time off. I’ve been off work since Dec 19, and I go back tomorrow. So, I have had plenty of time to sit back and enjoy the holidays. For me, there is no job that fits me better. Even though there are jobs that pay more than mine, I wouldn’t trade for anything. The time off is worth more to me than anything else.

I know that some people judge others that don't reach for the stars these days. If one is living in a small house and not really worried about how their car looks, some feel they haven't made it; they haven't utilized their full potential in life. They have been lazy. they don't stop to think that perhaps they are right where they want to be and happy as a lark.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> > Expensive houses depends a lot on where you live. Come to Texas. The middle class is alive and well around here.
> ...


Ive never owned a gun in my life. Just saying, DFW is booming and has been for a long time. Even through the recession we never felt the impacts here and businesses continued to move here and we continued to grow. There is a good reason a ton of corporate headquarters and businesses of all sizes are leaving their crappy states and coming to Texas. 

I guess some people like paying 400k for a 1700sqft home in some dumpy suburb with bad school systems for their children.


----------



## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I've heard mixed things about beer league hockey down in Texas. As long as I can still skate, it would be a really tough decision.


----------



## username77 (Dec 27, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I agree. But I think that it’s ok to like nice things. People like certain things and that’s where they spend their money, and they should if it makes the happy. If your a car guy get a nice car. If you love clothes and fashion, shop, if you like vacations go on vacation. The problem is when you need everything nice. People can’t have a nice car, a nice house, nice vacations, the newest phones, their hair/nails/facial done weekly. Things add up.


I don't begrudge anyone for spending their money on whatever they want, I'm not anti-material goods at all. Some people enjoy nice cars, clothes, phones, or hair and nails. If it makes them happy go for it, life's short, do whatever you can to find happiness. I used to love watches, motorcycles, and cars and spent a good amount of money on them. At the time it's what I wanted to do, as I get older I like experiences more. I would drop 50K on a vacation before a car. I've also found simplifying and getting rid of material stuff has eased my stress, I love having a little, it's odd, but I find acquiring stuff stresses me out.

The crazy guy who owned my house before me said "we never really own anything, we just care take it for a little while", I guess I'm exhausted care taking a bunch of ****.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

southbound said:


> When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topic of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?


They are being systematically driven out of existence by an assortment of things. The first was the women's movement, accompanied by the legalization of the birth control pill, which led to more and more women entering the workforce. Once that happened, prices naturally started rising higher than in the past; the economy rises to the level of acceptance, and with two-income households, that level rose. Eventually enough that most families simply couldn't get by without two incomes. 

Another is the globalization, which brought in cheap products, which allowed people to buy 10 shirts, replaceable shirts, instead of buying 2 or 3 well-made shirts that they would mend and keep for 10 years. The problem with this is that that part of the American economy depended on making well-made products and, once we realized we can buy 'almost as good' for half the price, well, we did! Just watch HGTV and see a 50-year-old house with a 3ft by 7ft master closet, which sufficed back then, to nowadays where people are building master closets as big as a bedroom. All of which led to that entire section of the American economy - clothes, manufacturing, small farms, you name it. All falling to the sword of higher prices. And don't forget our current 'need' for at least one computer, tablet, cell phone(s), several TVs, a new car every 3 years, etc.

Walmart has played a huge part in this downfall. Not just bringing in cheap, subpar products, but in going into a town of 1000 or 5000 people, underpricing the mom and pop shops, driving them all out of business, and then CLOSING those stores that didn't end up providing a high enough profit margin, leaving small towns all over America decimated - no grocery stores, no mom and pop stores (for all manner of products - clothes, hardware, housewares, bakeries, etc.), and then no Walmart! All those people who used to own businesses lost their businesses to Walmart, then were forced to WORK at Walmart - and we all know about the horror stories about Walmart workers paid so low that they have to go on food stamps - and then losing THAT job when the lower-performing Walmarts closed shop; those workers are typically told they can have a job - if they're willing to drive 50 miles to the nearest open Walmart (that way, Walmart doesn't get in trouble with the government).

Then there was Reaganomics, which convinced half of America that, if we'd just give the rich people more money, cut their taxes, then they would reinvest in the little man. Except they didn't. They just hired more lawyers and more accountants, started moving money oversees, started getting richer and richer, while for the first time in 40 years, wages started stagnating. And it became the trumpet call for conservatives: tax breaks! It's been tried three times now, and all three times, that money never trickled down. Middle America just got more and more stagnated and unable to climb the ladder.

A horrible byproduct of Reaganomics is that, during crises, the corporations realized that middle America was SO desperate for work, mainly because we were no longer to save 30%-50% of our income like we did in the 50s and 60s, that we would take fewer hours, a cut in pay, and worse benefits, all just to keep a job. And not only that, we would take ON the work of our coworker who DID get let go, so that each of us has ended up doing the work that 2, 3, or 5 people used to do. When I started at NASA, we had 12 editors; when I left 11 years later, I was one of 2; doing the same amount of (but not as good) work as those 12 people.

And then there are the investors of the past 20 years who grabbed onto these tax breaks and investments and started having CAREERS out of investing in corporations, getting seats on the BOARDS of these corporations, and squeezing every last penny out of every quarterly dividend. And, if said corporations DIDN'T provide them more profit that quarter, the investors either sold off the stock (devaluing the company) or had the leaders removed and replaced. Basically, all our American corporations are at the mercy of a handful of millionaires and billionaires who are investing in companies and demanding profits every 3 months. And how do you get profits? Laying off people and expecting those left to do the work of those laid off. Listen to marketplace.org; you'll hear this story at least once a week. And let's not even talk about the effect this has had on investing in research and technology; you can't do long-term research AND make profits every quarter; guess which one has been eroded all over the country? It's America now.

Don't forget the effect of the Koch brothers, who have behind the scenes systematically paid to get conservatives into top positions in school boards, city governments, and state governments around the country, who are doing the bidding of this group of people who are basically stripping middle man of most rights, making unions either illegal or impossible to run, finding 100 different ways to keep lower class people from voting, gerrymandering like crazy despite court cases all over America to fight it, and changing laws to benefit the wealthy.

Lastly, don't forget about the RIDICULOUS uptick in the price of college in the last 15 years. Loans became deregulated (another tenet of conservative policies) and went crazy available and, thus, colleges for the first time in history, realized they had a huge inflow of cash and could start 'imagining' a much 'better' college - new block-long 'recreation centers,' new stadiums (to get the alumni's money), new buildings...all of which led to ridiculously high rate hikes. I went to college at night for 15 years to get my Bachelors, paying for it each semester by working. Then had my daughter. By the time she went to college, my $6000 (over 15 years) BA cost her $80,000, and that was one of the cheapest colleges in Texas. I had saved up $20,000, thinking that was plenty; it didn't even cover her first year! I am paying half of the $60,000 in loans she had to take out, but she's stuck with the other $30,000. And her fiance still has about $15,000 left to pay off. How is she supposed to be able to afford to buy a house? Yet they are, they will just have to live extremely frugally for the first 10 or so years. And she's now giving up on her dream of a PhD because she simply can't afford to work on that PhD getting paid $5000 a year for 4 to 6 years.

THAT is why we are losing the Middle Class.


----------



## username77 (Dec 27, 2017)

turnera said:


> Then there was Reaganomics, which convinced half of America that, if we'd just give the rich people more money, cut their taxes, then they would reinvest in the little man. Except they didn't. They just hired more lawyers and more accountants, started moving money oversees, started getting richer and richer,


I tried explaining this to my mother because she's all for giving obscenely rich people tax cuts thinking it will trickle down to the middle-class. Companies don't grow because of tax breaks, they grow because whatever widget or service they sell is in high demand by the public, that's the only reason they grow, people want what they're selling. Tax cuts to a stagnant company will just be used to buy shares of their stock back, or give dividends to their wealthy shareholders. Or like you said, moved into an overseas account to grow for their personal wealth.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

username77 said:


> I tried explaining this to my mother because she's all for giving obscenely rich people tax cuts thinking it will trickle down to the middle-class. Companies don't grow because of tax breaks, they grow because whatever widget or service they sell is in high demand by the public, that's the only reason they grow, people want what they're selling.


And don't forget, if middle class people are SO poor because of stagnant wages, student loan debt, etc., they can't buy those widgets even if they want to.

I read the other day that if we had used that $1.7 trillion to pay off every single student loan in America, we'd still have money left over to pay for the very-needed infrastructure plan to fix all our failing roads, bridges and pipes (most of which were built - and paid for - 60 years ago, back when the top 5% were taxed at 50%; it was that 50% tax rate that paid for the infrastructure that grew their corporations). Guess which path would have put REAL money (not $1200 a year) into the hands of middle class America? A thousand bucks (with $1.7 trillion debt to hand down to our kids on top of their school loans) a year, or 20 years of no loan debt PLUS hundreds of thousands of jobs all over America redoing our infrastructure? THAT would be putting millions and millions of dollars back into the economy. 

But then, Congress would be pissing off all their billionaire donors and losing their jobs...



> *Tax cuts to a stagnant company will just be used to buy shares of their stock back, or give dividends to their wealthy shareholders*. Or like you said, moved into an overseas account to grow for their personal wealth.


Which they have ALREADY started doing! Even before the new tax year started. One article says already $83.7 BILLION in planned stock buyback, which only RAISES the price of that stock. Do middle class Americans have that stock? Only those who have company 401ks; and that money isn't touchable until around age 60; so no benefit to us there. :frown2:



> - Boeing raises dividend by 20 pct to $1.71 per share and establishes new $18 billion repurchase program; the world’s biggest maker of jetliners in October reported third-quarter earnings of $3.06 per share.
> 
> - Honeywell board authorizes repurchase of up to $8 billion of common stock.
> 
> ...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-dividends-since-tax-bill-vote-idUSL3N1OC4EQ

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-tax-buybacks-5f9f78cf6e27/

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/18/tax-bill-corporate-rate-stock-buyback/

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/tax...-buybacks-not-higher-wages-chuck-schumer.html

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/19/tax-bill-corporate-cut-stock-buyback-republican/


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

First off I think the OP's hindsight is clouded with nostalgia. There has never been an "average" person. And the "average" that he described is tainted by his longing for this fictional nirvana. Life seemed so much simpler and clear cut in the past, because of the experience we have now. Now, it makes perfectly good sense why we did things then. But at the time, we all struggled with various issues which at times seemed to much to overcome. So I think the OP's hindsight is not 20/20.

Secondly, if one were to talk about "average" for a given period of time, I think one has to consider the data compiled to arrive at that average. For instance, in a world where the majority of people might be rated as 4, 5, or 6. The average might be 5. But at the same time in another time when people might be rated as 1,2,9 and 10 the average might still be 5. Today we live in a world where the haves have a lot more than the have nots, relative to say 50 years ago. So that "average" might not be so relevant today.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The rich of the past 50 years have had many years to broker deals and laws that further enriched them and made it harder to TAKE that money away. The 'death tax' was created just for this purpose - to KEEP rich families from simply handing money over to their kids generation after generation, tax free, with NO investment in America and FURTHER broadening that gap. 

In other words, the Estate Tax was set up to keep what is happening today from happening. But the super rich realized that 75% of America is so uninformed, so unwilling to become informed (would rather watch tv or play video games than read New York Times or Wall Street Journal), that it would now be easy to 'relabel' the Estate Tax into the 'death tax' and gullible Americans, not even remembering why it was created (to keep more money in circulation and in their own hands), would rally to that cry of hatred against 'them' and tear it down. And it worked. It wasn't repealed, but it was bumped up from $5 million to $22 million. Which has nothing (never had) to do with 95% of Americans - we just allowed the top 5% to double or quadruple the money they never have to pay taxes on. _And put the REST of us an additional $172 billion in debt._ For no other reason than the super rich wanted it.


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

For some of us, being average is plenty okay. My wife and I both grew up very poor. We bounced around from run down shacks, to mobile homes, to apartments in our growing up years. Both sets of parents were divorced, and we had lots of siblings. I had three brothers, she had two brothers and two sisters. We both wanted more than what we grew up with, and didn't want our kids to grow up in the same environment we did. Mission accomplished.

Our two daughters grew up in a very loving environment, and didn't have to do without a lot of the little things we had to as kids. Even when our house burned down and we lost everything, with no insurance, we still bounced back twofold. We never felt the need to "keep up with the Jones'" We just wanted what was best for our family within our means.

Less than 20 years into our marriage, we bought, and are now owners of a nice home in a nice neighborhood. We have a lot of the luxuries and conveniences we definitely didn't have as kids. I have some of the things I've always wanted, and I couldn't be happier.

Honestly, it really never mattered where we lived, or what we had materially. It was always about having love for each other, and the feeling of security that comes with that. I don't care what other people have. We have everything we need plus some. I have what I want, and my family does, too.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

turnera said:


> The rich of the past 50 years have had many years to broker deals and laws that further enriched them and made it harder to TAKE that money away. The 'death tax' was created just for this purpose - to KEEP rich families from simply handing money over to their kids generation after generation, tax free, with NO investment in America and FURTHER broadening that gap.
> 
> In other words, the Estate Tax was set up to keep what is happening today from happening. But the super rich realized that 75% of America is so uninformed, so unwilling to become informed (would rather watch tv or play video games than read New York Times or Wall Street Journal), that it would now be easy to 'relabel' the Estate Tax into the 'death tax' and gullible Americans, not even remembering why it was created (to keep more money in circulation and in their own hands), would rally to that cry of hatred against 'them' and tear it down. And it worked. It wasn't repealed, but it was bumped up from $5 million to $22 million. Which has nothing (never had) to do with 95% of Americans - we just allowed the top 5% to double or quadruple the money they never have to pay taxes on. _And put the REST of us an additional $172 billion in debt._ For no other reason than the super rich wanted it.


Thankfully we do not have death duties here. Why should people that have money have tax taken from their estate when they die? I'm a big believer in one generation helping the next, my money is there to make my kids lives better, just as my parents have done for their kids. Oh and wealthy people pay a truck load of tax along the way and often create employment for others.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Death duties, estate taxes only kick in after 5.4 million dollars. I can't remember what the new tax bill will bring.

Even the old regime only affected families in the single digits of the US population.

Also estate taxes are liked by some segments of the population. Particularly charities and educational institutions since a lot of donations are made on the basis of tax avoidance and doing good at the same time.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MrsHolland said:


> Thankfully we do not have death duties here. Why should people that have money have tax taken from their estate when they die? I'm a big believer in one generation helping the next, my money is there to make my kids lives better, just as my parents have done for their kids. Oh and wealthy people pay a truck load of tax along the way and often create employment for others.


Not here, they don't. The wealthy pay a smaller percent than anyone else. And they hire legions of lawyers and accountants to shield their money so they remove taxes. This bill was SUPPOSED to have removed those ways of hiding money. It didn't. And the Estate Tax merely says that you will pay taxes on a certain percent of the 'wealth' they own. It doesn't TAKE their money away. And in America, rich people rarely create ANY jobs anymore, unless you talk about the servants hired to wait on them at their country clubs.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> Death duties, estate taxes only kick in after 5.4 million dollars. I can't remember what the new tax bill will bring.
> 
> Even the old regime only affected families in the single digits of the US population.
> 
> Also estate taxes are liked by some segments of the population. Particularly charities and educational institutions since a lot of donations are made on the basis of tax avoidance and doing good at the same time.


It is now $22 million for married couples. Anything more than that they will pay taxes on when the kids inherit that money.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> Thankfully we do not have death duties here. Why should people that have money have tax taken from their estate when they die? I'm a big believer in one generation helping the next, my money is there to make my kids lives better, just as my parents have done for their kids. Oh and wealthy people pay a truck load of tax along the way and often create employment for others.


One generation does help the next. 

We do not tax money, we tax transactions. Whether than be sales, wages or inheritance.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

southbound said:


> I believe when we stop letting culture dictate our lust of things for happiness, we would be different people.


Exactly.

And a lot of this began with the industrial revolution - factories producing tons of things we didn't need, along with advertising and marketing which began creating a sense of boredom and want.

I'm a minimalist. I always have been. It's the way I think, and it's my preferred way of living. I get overwhelmed easily, so keeping my world small has been a priority. 

This was hard when I was married and harder when children came along.

Society gives you a script, and you're expected to follow. But the American Dream was never mine. I don't care for neighborhoods, and having a house was, for me, a creative project that I could throw myself into, but I resented the maintenance. 

All I ever wanted was my freedom. Freedom to hang out with my husband and my children. But I could never seem to communicate my vision in a way that my husband could understand. Or maybe it simply wasn't a life he wanted.

Over the last few years, I began following lots of family bloggers who live on boats and/or RVs, and they're doing the things I wanted to do with my family.

Now that I'm divorced, and my children are grown, I'm living a life that's the most 'me' I've ever been. I have no house or car. I sold it all. I live in a very tiny room, and I use public transportation.

I work where I live. I earn very little, but I'm also fed, I have access to the internet, and utilities are included. I have faith based health-sharing, as opposed to insurance. Finally, no more property taxes or car/house insurance - which for the past decade was over $10,000 a year.

I have no debt. I have a healthy savings/retirement account, and I live off of about 20% of what I make and save the rest.

And I'm free. I can buy whatever I want, but I don't want much. I do enjoy traveling, and that time and effort is usually spent visiting family.

I consider myself and my situation better off than the average person. And I would never go back to living like everyone else.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

minimalME said:


> southbound said:
> 
> 
> > I believe when we stop letting culture dictate our lust of things for happiness, we would be different people.
> ...


I would consider your life more enjoyable and successful than those who are spending every moment reaching for the next dollar and vacation.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Why should people that have money have tax taken from their estate when they die?


The estate tax in the U.S. was set up to tax unrealized capital gain of the decedent. Under current law, the property (investments, land, etcetera) are "stepped up" to the current market value in the hands of the heirs. The unrealized capital gains, in respect to the decedent, on such property is never taxed. Therefore, a heir receiving property originally purchased for $100, and immediately selling the property for $100,000 or even $100,000,000 would pay no tax.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

southbound said:


> I would consider your life more enjoyable and successful than those who are spending every moment reaching for the next dollar and vacation.


Me too.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Were I live, rent goes from $1400 to $2600+ and that's for a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom rental, half a house or full house.


Owning a place here:

- $250,000 to $300,00 for a 600 to 800 sqft condo
- $350,000 to $500,000 for a townhouse, up to 1400 sqft ish
- $500,000 to $700,000 for a used house

- If you want a nice and new, big house, $800,000 and up.

- Realistic wages are minimum wage to $18 range for most jobs and into the $20's is your a very experienced and certified worker in a trade or field. $25 hour is about it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I remember going to see my aunt in California 40+ years ago. She lived in a mobile home. And she was well off! But it was the only thing she could afford near LA.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

IMO, money doesn't buy happiness but it sure does open up a lot more possibilities, nothing wrong with that. That being said, maybe your perception of where all the "average" people went is in part skewed by social media, where people flock to every day to show off. Also, what exactly constitutes "average"? You mention "They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. ", is that criteria for not being average? I don't know anyone really who goes on exotic vacations (maybe visiting the Animal Kingdom at Disney lol). I live by the water, so you would see more boats parked in the driveway vs a neighborhood in Montana, but even still it is not common. A lot of people by me have a pool (whether it be above ground, mid, or inground). My W and I got married a few years out of college, very little money to our names. We saved and worked our butts off. Fortunately things have gone in the right direction financially, so would we be considered "average" when we first got married but not average now?

I would say that just because someone doesn't have a lot of money doesn't mean they aren't happy. Likewise, someone can have a lot of money and be happy. Unfortunately there are those who are so bent with instant gratification and keeping up with the Joneses that they put themselves in a no win situation.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Around here, the average guy is an HVAC tech, plumber, auto worker (Motor City and all that), boilermaker, steel mill worker, teacher, welder, etc. 

The average yearly wage is something like $50,000.00 because the cost of living isn't bad. For example, a 1200 sq ft 3 bedroom brick ranch style house with a garage and fenced yard sells for around $100,000.00 and rents for around $900-$1200 a month.

In this area, a gainfully employed average guy has zero troubles finding a mate provided he isn't a jerk, can hold a conversation, and bathes regularly.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

southbound said:


> We sometimes discuss the importance of money when choosing someone for a relationship. If someone seems to look down on considering money in a relationship, there are those who will point out that being poor is no fun and people need to pay their bills. Poor, however, is not the first step down from being well off. Whatever happened to the average person?
> 
> When I was growing up, it seemed like being average was ok. Those were the people who had a decent house, a good job, although it may not have been a white collar job. Although discussing high prices may have sometimes been a topIc of conversation, they never really had any issue meeting their needs financially, and their idea of enjoyment was watching Gunsmoke and MASH in the evenings after work. They didn’t necessarily go on exotic vacations, have an underground pool, or have a boat parked in the driveway. Whatever happened to those people?


I've dated from the poverty pool and I have dated $1 million per year CFOs. IMO, the only important thing about money is that the two of you are capable of discussing it, moving toward each other, compromise, etc.

Gunsmoke and MASH? Not in the 1970s when I grew up. We believed in and practiced "the best things in life are free" and spent free/entertainment time hiking, swimming in creeks, etc. TV was watched ONLY during the cold of the winter - which is why the "TV season" is in the winter, after all. That was a boring fallback.

"Being poor is no fun". Sorry, but objective measurements prove the opposite. Low-income people in the US are happier than high-income. If you are earning poverty level, you don't care at all what the neighbors think about your car - you're just happy to have one that runs. And you ARE happy to have one that runs. Neither do you pay any attention to the brand name on your clothing, or whether you live in a posh neighborhood...and since you can't afford HBO and all that crap, you spend your "entertainment" time outdoors. Been there, done that. It works.

For a more detailed look at the correlation between wealth and misery, I highly recommend the book "Affluenza, when too much is never enough" by Clive Hamilton.


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

DustyDog said:


> I've dated from the poverty pool and I have dated $1 million per year CFOs. IMO, the only important thing about money is that the two of you are capable of discussing it, moving toward each other, compromise, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I just got my new hoodie in. It is an “Amazon Essential”. I LOVE IT! $20 and I’m like a kid in a candy store 

Had money with the XH. Could have screwed him big time in the divorce. Could have stayed cushy while remaining roommates, waited for gmom to pass and really live it up. 

I am so much happier in this tiny old house making the ends meet than I ever was or would have been there. I feel like I’m back to me now and doing the things that make life important again 

Poor ain’t so bad 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Poor is bad if life paints ya into a corner...


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My husband's work is in the toilet right now because of Hurricane Harvey. I have $12,000 in taxes to pay this month and can't even pay our bills, let alone our taxes. I'll be Ubering every day this month after work. There's poor, and then there's desperate.


----------

