# Is not feeling safe a reason why some women have a low/no sex drive?



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

One Ted Talk suggests not feeling safe (bonded to a partner) is one cause of not wanting to be sexual with her partner.

Listen to the Ted Talk and give your opinion.
The New Frontier of Sex & Intimacy | Dr Sue Johnson | TEDxUOttawa 

Yes I know about the books "Five Love Languages" 
Words of Affirmation
Acts of Service
Gifts
Quality Time
Physical Touch

and Marriage Builders questionnaires relating to each spouse's top needs.
Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Physical Attractiveness
Domestic Support
Financial Support
Openness and Honesty
Family Commitment
Need of Admiration

About me? I have almost all of the popular books 20+ (over 10 yrs worth) about improving relationships. Some books helped with individual issues but over all we ended up in separate bedrooms and do very little together. I would rather do things alone. I feel like a husband and wife appliance. I do 90% of what gets done at home and anything that has an element of money. My W is critical of most things I do. She watches TV 14 hrs a day.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depression and/or personality disorder territory I feel...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Not feeling safe is a reason to not want sex. Not being connected is also a reason. If you're just roommates it can be hard to find sexual attraction. 

Not doing things together - can that be changed? You need alone time. 15 hours a week is suggested. That is away from kids and electronics (so sitting in the living room watching the same show doesn't count) 

This also means she gets away from the tv. You will probably have to be the one doing the date planning and motivating things along for a while. It's not very fair but usually the one with the complaints and need to fix it has to do the leg work for it. 

You'll never get to the point of fixing things if you spend no time together and don't even sleep in the same room. 
I wouldn't suggest trying to get more sex until you start spending more non-sexual time together first


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy, I know about the 15 hrs a week. I used to post on Marriage Builders (MB) 10+ yrs ago but got fed up with a few posters that are about the only ones giving advice. I was censored for mentioning any other books not written by the website owner. I still think MB has a lot to offer but I don't see it as the only way.

I mostly wondered how safety and bonding played a role in sexual miss matches, how common it might be, and anyone's (women especially) opinion that could say the lack of safety/bonding played a role in their low drive. I can say I feel like I am a very safety first person but because I am larger/taller than almost everyone I come in contact with, some people think I am intimidating. I even have to act wimpy sometimes so I can make other people feel comfortable. I am a peace keeper type so conflict is very uncomfortable to me.

To be honest, I don't see anything changing in my relationship. I see us living in different houses soon. Once I have that idea figured out I might ask questions about separating and doing the least damage, with the lowest drama.

With that said, I know I still need to work on a few things myself that might be out of the norm for most people.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Ugh ya the MB forum is a little much. Great books and information but the obsessive, cult members of the forum just make it a place that's not productive. 

Guidelines are great, sometimes they need to bend for certain situations and they don't allow for any of that. 

I seem to have a thing for ending up with big, intimidating looking men. 
One that had temper issues was terrifying. If you've ever, and I mean ever, used your strength against her or in an intimidating way, it'll stick and she'll never feel safe. 

One that doesn't and has a gentle side is comforting. 

But sometimes women want that I could never hurt you and being tender with you but I will murder someone with my bare hands if they ever hurt you. He is your protector. 

Weak can be just as bad as tough. You kind of have to find a good middle ground. 

Being afraid of conflict isn't a good thing and I am the same way so don't take it bad. I did not stand up for myself cause I want people to be happy and I don't like problems. 
You teach people how to treat you. 
If you're letting this happen you are saying it's ok. Hardest thing I had to learn.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Does your wife have any history of trauma that you know of? Child sex abuse, sexual assault, parent(s) with substance abuse or mental illness, etc.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hows 10 years of effort working for you?

If you want a chance at change you got to do something different than reading books and posting on message boards.you got to wake her up and rattle her cage. File for divorce and tell her if I don't see any effort on your part I'm out of here.

But in your heart you know it over. And that ok . So whats the plan stan?


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Thor said:


> Does your wife have any history of trauma that you know of? Child sex abuse, sexual assault, parent(s) with substance abuse or mental illness, etc.


I've often wondered if the trauma of growing up with my father is the reason I have a nonexistent sex drive. He was very large, scary, unpredictable, and prone to sudden violent lashings-out and fits of rage against his children and his very mild, timid wife (our mother). He really seemed to hate and resent all eight of us, for no particular reason. My mother was overpowered by him and we all basically cowered in fear as our default setting at home.

There were many nights that I was sure he was going to hack us all to bits in our beds and bury the bits in our backyard. He was that full of rage and out of control. Somehow he never actually went that far...but every time I read about a father who slaughters his whole family, I still think, there but for the grace of something-or-other go I.

Is that history enough to make one feel unsafe at the very core, from a very early age, for life? Maybe. What other explanation could there be for no sexual desire or feeling, besides some quirk in my physical body that no doctor knows how to diagnose or fix?


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Thor
Does your wife have any history of trauma that you know of? *

Non that I know of. Her father died when she was 3 or 4 and I think a boyfriend was moody and stood her up several times.

She does go for men that act powerful, but if they over promise or screw up, then she flips a switch and they become trash.


* chillymorn69
So what is the plan?*

Right now I am being as pleasant as I can but not over doing that part. Taking care of things around the house, trying come up a plan about an affordable place for me to live, and discovering what I need to do for me with the least damage to her.

Yes I think it is over. She told one of her friends that she is emotionally divorced from me.

In general, I don't threaten anyone but I do raise my voice after I have been sucked it in for too long. The worst I said to my W is "If you don't like living her get out." This was after she told me she wished the house would burn down and she was looking for a house on her own for over a year. I even entertained going with her to look for her dream house but it cost $125,000 more than our current house. She wanted a 3 car garage, 4 ft wide hallways, no steps including to the garage, open daytime living area, IOW the newest trends in handicapped accessible. The taxes on the house she wanted were double of what I am now paying. We found out the area only allows 2 pets and she has up to 13 at a time.

Watching the "Home and Garden" network and wanting what they profile in housing or remodels, isn't any way near my income level. Our current house was built in 1975 and I did a lot of the work when it was being built. I remodeled the inside extensively. The house is not perfect but very livable.

Rattle her cage? Do something different? 10 years ago she used to come back to my questions with "so do you want a divorce? Zero to 60 like. I used to try to assure her things were not that bad, but me trying to smooth things over, didn't change anything. One day I said OK a divorce is fine with me. Since then she doesn't automatically bring up the D word.

Right now i would like to live on my own but feel guilty for wanting to do that. In 10months it will be the 50th anniversary and I do not want anyone wishing me/us another happy 50 years.

* John117
Depression and/or personality disorder territory I feel.*

Yes some depression, anxiety, some medical issues and the biggie I think is where she used to work they had a "co-dependency no more" program. It was take care of yourself and let others do the same. Only in my way of thinking people need to give and take. This "look out for yourself" seems one sided.

SlowlyGoingCrazy, tonight I read a couple of threads on the MB forum. The same 100% this is the only way to fix a relationship people do 90+% of the replies. I am not saying they are wrong but it is one way according to the author's books. I remember one female poster that pushed the idea of an affair happening to almost 95% of the newbies posts it there was independent behavior happening and no sex between the couple. I think she backed off now. I still think MB has some valuable resources "IF both people work the program. The one sided approach only works for any self improvement goals but not so much for the marriage if both people have issues.

I see there are no takes on the "Not feeling Safe......... title. I was mostly trying to determine if this was a significant problem for some women. Me trying to come across to others as me being a "safe person" has been something I have tried to do most of my life. I guess it doesn't work out that way for me (hoping the OP feels safe) or maybe it isn't that big of a deal to most people because the generally feel safe.

Some of the Ted Talks get me wondering how big (percentage wise) of a problem is the topic in real life.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

2020hindsight, my stepfather was difficult for me to live with. I tried to avoid him as much as possible because he often chewed me out. There was no allowance for mistakes. I didn't feel welcome in my home and sometimes I felt unsafe. I lived with my older brother when ever things at home got rough.

Me wanting others to feel safe around me is one reason I don't insist on my way and it is why I try to avoid conflict. I was determined to NOT BE like my stepfather. I do take risks, do a few adventurous things but I weigh the potential outcomes many times before I take actions.

Some family of origin (FOO) issues carry over long into adulthood.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Handy said:


> SlowlyGoingCrazy, I know about the 15 hrs a week. I used to post on Marriage Builders (MB) 10+ yrs ago but got fed up with a few posters that are about the only ones giving advice. I was censored for mentioning any other books not written by the website owner. I still think MB has a lot to offer but I don't see it as the only way.


A lot of people have left MB forums because of the attitude of some who seem to think that they are the resident experts. It’s sad because the site has a potential to do a lot of good if only that was not allowed to occur.



Handy said:


> I mostly wondered how safety and bonding played a role in sexual miss matches, how common it might be, and anyone's (women especially) opinion that could say the lack of safety/bonding played a role in their low drive. I can say I feel like I am a very safety first person but because I am larger/taller than almost everyone I come in contact with, some people think I am intimidating. I even have to act wimpy sometimes so I can make other people feel comfortable. I am a peace keeper type so conflict is very uncomfortable to me.


When Dr Sue Johnson and Dr, Harley talk about safety, they are talking about emotional safety, not physical safety. 

You size has nothing to do with your partner’s emotional safety. So I’m a bit confused about your putting your physical size into this.

I agree that most women need to feel emotionally safe (or bounded) in order to want sex with their spouse. I also believe that when a woman does not feel emotionally safe (bonded) she does not get a low sex drive. She just does not want sex with a spouse who does not meet her needs and thus does not make her feel emotionally sex (bonded).

That video gives a very good explanation of this. 

*



*



Handy said:


> To be honest, I don't see anything changing in my relationship. I see us living in different houses soon. Once I have that idea figured out I might ask questions about separating and doing the least damage, with the lowest drama.


“that idea”.. what idea? The one about your wife not wanting sex because she does not feel emotionally safe, or bonded, with you?



Handy said:


> With that said, I know I still need to work on a few things myself that might be out of the norm for most people.


ok


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Chillymorn69
So whats the plan stan? *

Looking for a divorce plan where everyone is happy and everyone wins!

OK, only kidding but I wish it was doable.

Until I have something worked out to the best of my ability, it is to be pleasant, somewhat engaged, but mostly detached.

Maybe I need to listen to the song "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" by Paul Simon for the 100th plus time.

Which goes back to what I said to 2020hindsight, me not wanting to make mistakes or discounting/glossing over other's potential hurt feelings.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

She could definitely have a PD, or Entitled Princess Syndrome at the very least. 

But on some level, you have allowed her behavior all these years, so it's not like she was going to wake up and change one morning to suddenly be respectful. 

It sounds like you've never given her a hard NO over anything when she's been unruly, or took your own action when she threatened divorce (like file your own petition). When someone threatens you as a petty means of maintaining control or as a means to goad you, you give them exactly what they want. So, when she gets unruly, turn on your VAR or phone voice recorder (hidden) and when she threatens to leave, you should tell her, "OK, I'll help you," pull out her suitcase, pack up her essential ****, call the taxi, hand her her purse, put some cash in her hands (for taxi), escort her out the door, and close it behind her. 

I'm sure some posters won't like my answer above, and it's rarely that cut and dry, but the idea is, you shouldn't care what she threatens. If she were happy, she wouldn't be acting like this anyway, so unless you've been a full on arse hole to her in the past, there is no reason to accept (or expect) this kind of behavior from her. 

Are you afraid of her? Think very carefully about that question before you jump to answer it. I'm asking very seriously. Do you avoid doing difficult things because you fear dealing with, or facing, her reaction?


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

EleGirl, I know I sometimes miss the context or implied meaning of a message. So maybe I put too much emphasis on the physical part and not enough about the emotional part of feeling safe. I might have it wrong that the video was about physical safety. I take things sort of being similar to a scientific/measurable concept and not the numerous emotional possibilities.

I know there is something people call chemistry between people but that chemistry thing is difficult to nail down. To me it seems like some chemistry energy that can't be measured by anyone other than the people involved. If a string of problems come into the relationship, sometimes the chemistry "vanishes."

Emotional safety can disappear because one person means and/or does well but the other person sees something the activity or words as threatening or not caring.

For example I can say I want to be debt free and have the house paid off. My w can interpret that as me wanting to curtail her retail therapy she practices regularly.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Satya, I know I teach people how to treat me and what they can get away with. It took me a long time to see the light. One bit of wisdom I learned is to do what most people would consider doing the right thing. 

I used to be goal oriented. Being goal oriented when she used to say the D word had me in getting her off the topic mode. Now I am not goal oriented but I have to change what others think they can get away with. OK, I can't change them, I just set new boundaries and hope it works.

The VAR, sometimes I wish I had a few recordings because my W denies she said some things. I think about that idea (VAR) sometimes and wonder if it would fix anything or just add fuel to the fire. I don't do payback or get even. I would rather walk away. I tried proving that I am right but there is resentment from the other side even if I am right.

* Are you afraid of her? Think very carefully about that question before you jump to answer it. I'm asking very seriously. Do you avoid doing difficult things because you fear dealing with, or facing, her reaction? *

I used to think a D would ruin her and me. It was a sign of selfish people. I thought it would make me look like a loser. Old religious should s and shouldn't die hard. My w used to have the attitude a woman should take a H to the cleaners even if it meant the lawyer made big $$$ and there wasn't much left over for either party when the final papers were adjudicated.

Now I know people talk big and tough but they don't always follow their own advice.

Yes I still avoid difficult things because of her reactions and behaviors. She endorses the phrase "If mma isn't happy, no one else in the family is happy." My guess is it isn't for spite but that mama needs to be happy and her happiness sets the tome for the household.

BTW the kids have kids of their own so no kids at home other than her fur babies (cats and dogs)

Entitled Princess Syndrome? Well maybe. We live in a neighborhood where I have a lower income / living standard (toys and vacations) so my W asks me why we couldn't afford to live like the neighbors. I quit boring money, I pay off any credit charges every month, put a little bit of money in the retirement account every month without fail, and make due with what we have (fixed a lot of stuff to keep using it).

I did tell my W maybe she needed a dentist income to be happy. I think she feels cheated out of some of the finer things in life. She was a stay at home mom for a long time and when she went to work all of her income from her part time job was spent on her toy of the day/week/month. That was the operating procedure recommended and endorsed by the "co-dependency no more" program they had at her place of employment. 

Where I worked it was do the work but don't spend anymore than necessary. It was close to fix something with almost nothing. I got fairly good at it but that didn't play well at home.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Handy said:


> EleGirl, I know I sometimes miss the context or implied meaning of a message. So maybe I put too much emphasis on the physical part and not enough about the emotional part of feeling safe. I might have it wrong that the video was about physical safety. I take things sort of being similar to a scientific/measurable concept and not the numerous emotional possibilities.


The video is absolutely about EMOTIONAL SAFETY. Within the first few sentences of the video, Dr. Sue Johnson clearly states that she’s talking about emotional safety. Maybe you should listen to is a few times.

Emotions are very much scientific. Humans are chemical engines. Our emotions are caused by the chemicals that our bodies/brains make and that our brain uptakes. There is a lot of research going on now to learn how they work, how to measure them, etc. 

In the video that you posted about, she mentions research that has been done that shows that when a woman feels emotionally safe the frontal lobe of her brain lights up in scans. That means that it’s a real, physical action taking place in the brain. Men have this to a much lesser degree.


Handy said:


> I know there is something people call chemistry between people but that chemistry thing is difficult to nail down.


Some of the recent work on what your calling chemistry is interesting.

For example, they have discovered that pheromones are very drive human attraction. They are why sometimes when two people meet there it the “love at first sight” type of attraction. It turns out that a large part of what our pheromones telecast is our immunities. A person is apparently attracted to someone whose have immunities that they do not. Scientist speculate that it’s because that this would pass on more immunities to offspring. 

Now once a couple starts to date, other things come into play that we casually call “chemistry” but that are what bond us together.

For example, when a couple first meets and for the first 18 to 24 months of dating, they are in the infatuation stage, or new love stage. During that stage, when they are together, when they think about the other, when they hear the other their brains produce and uptake large amounts of dopamine, oxytocin and other feel-good/bonding chemicals. When this couple has sex, the production and uptake of dopamine, oxytocin, shoots way up. This is why sex is so important in relationships. Basically this ‘in love’ feeling is a chemical high in the brain… sort of like being on cocaine. Then somewhere between 18 and 24 months, the brain stops making as much dopamine so the high goes down.

In longer term relationships, the reason that it is so important to meet each other’s most important needs, to spend at least 15 hours a week together, and to have a good sex life is that is what keeps the brain producing oxytocin, dopamine, etc. at a level high enough to keep the passion/love in a relationship. 

Most women need non-sexual intimacy to keep the oxytocin (etc) at a level high enough to feel emotionally safe and to want sex with their husband. In the video, Dr. Johnson talks about women needing to talk and spend time with him (non-sexual intimacy) so that they can gage the emotional level of the relationship. Without the non-sexual intimacy, a woman does not feel emotionally safe (or bonded) to the man. 

In “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs” Harley talks about the ‘love bank’. Do you know what the love bank it? It’s oxytocin. Meet your partners needs and their oxytocin levels go up. Do something that love busts, their oxytocin level goes down.

Researchers have found that with women, when their oxytocin levels get too low, they get to the point of not wanting to be touched by their spouse. It’s very hard to come back from this because she’s lost the desire to engage in both non-sexual and sexual intimacy with her husband. She cannot force herself to get it back. This is when MB suggests that the couple spend something like 30 hours a week together in quality time … an intense meeting of each other’s needs until the ‘love bank’ (aka oxytocin) comes back.


Handy said:


> To me it seems like some chemistry energy that can't be measured by anyone other than the people involved. If a string of problems come into the relationship, sometimes the chemistry "vanishes."


True, with today’s level of science advancement, only the people involved can gage their level of “chemistry”. 

However, researchers have found that if a couple uses an oxytocin nose spray, they can get along a lot better and fix their problems. I’ve read speculation that this might be used as in marriage counseling in the future.


Handy said:


> Emotional safety can disappear because one person means and/or does well but the other person sees something the activity or words as threatening or not caring.


This is why a couple needs to talk. It’s why the books “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs” are such good books because they teach a couple about how important not love busting and meeting each other’s needs is. And they teach how to talk about this things as a couple and resolve issues.

But is also true that it takes two to fix this. If one or both will not work together, will not talk, etc., then nothing will ever get better. That’s when you now that staying married is not worth it.


Handy said:


> For example I can say I want to be debt free and have the house paid off. My w can interpret that as me wanting to curtail her retail therapy she practices regularly.


This is the two of you having conflicting needs and both of you not being willing to work together. 

Does your wife have a job?

Have you read the book “Smart Couples Finish Rich”? Has she?

What negotiating have the two of you done on this?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Handy said:


> One Ted Talk suggests not feeling safe (bonded to a partner) is one cause of not wanting to be sexual with her partner.


Yes, but it may have nothing (or very little) to do with _you_.

If her past was not traumatic in the sense that there was abuse or anything else along those lines, it may simply be a case of sex deriving more negative responses than positives. For example, feeling used, or feeling that men only want her for one thing.

Sex can very quickly and very easily become a negative (or at least not a positive) for many women, simply because of this. The last person they want pressuring them for sex (and "pressure" is in the eye of the beholder) is their husband, the man who is not supposed to be "like all the others".


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You have been doing this for years.

I would argue that safety and security can actually have the opposite effect on some people.

Why?

Because she believes you aren't going anywhere. To her, that means the situation (on at least some level) is okay.

And you know what? She's would be right.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

EleGirl, lots of good stuff in your last post. I knew about most/some of it but you made some things connect, such as the "love bank" is really oxytocin. I watched several videos about pheromones and mate selection or just being attracted to a certain person. It was a undershirt worn by a guy and which woman liked the guy she thought was the most interesting undershirt she smelled.

Oxytocin spray being used in marriage counseling, now that is new to me and interesting.

Farsidejunkiy, good humor and I miss the daily cartoons in the newspaper. Tundra has some good current cartoons.

Your idea makes sense about her feeling as I won't do anything. Once during an argument, my W told me that she didn't have to worry about me having an affair because no one would want me. Well that shocked me so I thought about what I needed to change. But I also knew it was mostly about her anger at the moment. 

After I was in a yoga class with mostly women, she asked me who was my girlfriend and to be sure to tell her how mess I was. My W knows a couple of the women. The yoga class has a few men and the class is geared for people over 65 that might have some physical limitations. The only "HOT" ladies in the class are a few fill in instructors that are 40 yrs old or under than can do way more than the "Silver and fit" crowd. I am not into "HOT" so the young ladies do not count other than motivation for me to stretch my limits doing some of the yoga poses and moves. What counts is caring and similar interests, which I see in many of the male and female participants.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Handy said:


> Once during an argument, my W told me that she didn't have to worry about me having an affair because no one would want me. Well that shocked me so I thought about what I needed to change. But I also knew it was mostly about her anger at the moment.
> 
> After I was in a yoga class with mostly women, she asked me who was my girlfriend and to be sure to tell her how mess I was.


^ Those are hateful. Angry or not that is either a very mean woman or someone with a lot of resentment towards you. Or both I guess. 

Why so angry? I can see where complacent and unattached came in but that is different than anger and hurtful


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Without even reading the rest of the thread or watching the Ted Talk...I can tell you that is true.


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## chronicallyfrustrated (Jul 21, 2017)

Hi Handy,

I know I'm late to the party, but I read much of this thread, and there is something that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

Yes, feeling unsafe with a partner can deter wanting to have sex with that partner. No, it doesn't necessarily lead to a low sex drive. Yes, traumas can change how we feel attachment. However, I haven't seen anyone else mention attachment to the self. 

I've gone through some periods of feeling unattached to my husband, but I've never felt unsafe, so reestablishing attachment with my husband was possible. However, I've also gone through periods of weight gain and body changes, as well as struggles around food consumption/other forms of personal moderation. As a result, I eventually felt unsafe and out of control in my self. (I'm actually still working on feeling in control!) As a result, I haven't wanted/don't want as much sexual intimacy with my husband. I can't be properly attached to anyone else if I can't be properly emotionally attached to my sense of self.

So, what might have changed around the time DW stopped being the woman you married, and started being a scary unattached stranger?

I want to reinforce everyone talking about a possible mood disorder, like depression or anxiety, and encourage you to encourage your DW to seek help for depression and anger. You may also benefit from researching Internal Family Systems.

Also, it sounds like there's a big struggle with "keeping up with the Jonses" in your life. It seems like DW has a big connection to stuff, money and status. Have you thought about downsizing, such as by moving to a nice area that isn't as fancy?

Also, you mentioned you have kids and grandkids. It sounds like your kids have relationships, maybe marriages? And they've probably definitely had sex, because they have kids? Children tend to seek partners a lot like their parents. Have you opened up to your kids about the struggles you are having? If their relationships are healthier, they may have stumbled upon the answers you are seeking. 

Best of luck,
Kayla


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chronicallyfrustrated said:


> Hi Handy,
> 
> I know I'm late to the party, but I read much of this thread, and there is something that I don't think anyone has mentioned.
> 
> ...


You bring up a very important point. The video does talk a bit about this.


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## pbj2016 (May 7, 2017)

I'm still puzzling over your "I act wimpy..." because of physical characteristics. I'm 6'2 and overweight and know of only 1 person that I actually have to tilt my head up to look them in the eyes. I would never act wimpy in order to be less intimidating to others. You don't like my physical presence then take a long walk off a short pier. Why would you change who you are because someone is intimidated by what you look like? Not really a problem unless you frequently violate other people's personal space.

It sounds like your wife has your knickers in a bunch permanently. What are your wife's love languages according to her (not your opinion but her's).


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

*Chronicallyfrustrated
1. I've also gone through periods of weight gain and body changes, as well as struggles around food consumption/other forms of personal moderation.*

I experienced weight gain and it turns off the W. A long time ago my weight was a problem for her in the desire department. What killed the sex was her being tired all of the time and some urinary track infections. The UTIs was her last straw. I showered before any bedroom activity but she wouldn't. Her UTIs were all E. coli based. then she had thinning of the vagina. But I am past that stage now. It ain't going to happen so why wish. I am more into making me a happier and better person without her input or actions.

* So, what might have changed around the time DW stopped being the woman you married, and started being a scary unattached stranger?*

The "co dependency no more" training where she used to work at a mental health facility. She never liked to work and wanted to stay home except for about 2 hrs a day. . She has a low opinion of talk therapy. Her income became her play money. She was tired all of the time. The shopping channels on TV was her therapy. Some weeks she got a delivery 5 days a week. She moved to the guest bedroom because she said I kept her awake. She hears sounds at night I can't hear. 

On my side of the equation, I had a second work related back injury mostly due to working too hard. The first time for the back injury I had surgery. The surgery sort of worked and didn't so I didn't want a second surgery. I did physical therapy for 3 years while I retrained. My W lost her protector and income provider. She was essentially forced to go to work which she never like doing. She wanted to a SAHM. We were both in retraining program , her for 2 years, .and me for 3 years. We survived on my disability insurance payments that were about 60% of my full time wage but nothing for all of the overtime I used to work.

* it sounds like there's a big struggle with "keeping up with the Jonses" in your life. It seems like DW has a big connection to stuff, money and status. Have you thought about downsizing, such as by moving to a nice area that isn't as fancy?*

I did do that when I was retraining after the second back injury. The numbers looked good on one side of the ledger but the expenses to make a switch were high. The kids were in high school and i didn't want them to have to attend another school. between 2nd grade and 10th grade, i had to move 28 times. Everything I owned fit in a banana box. I wanted a better life for my kids.

If I was about to lose the house, I am certain my W's parents would have loaned us some money for a couple of years. I didn't want to ask or owe anyone any money so we cut back $$$$$ for several years. When my W went to work she made up for what she did without. When I went back to work I only earned 2/3 of what I used to earn and the overtime was gone. I became thrifty and quit buying things I wanted but didn't need. The W, well it was do what made her happy so most of her income was spent on TV shopping channel stuff. I don't know why someone would buy 50 pair of shoes. Some come with DVD to show how to properly walk in them.

* Have you opened up to your kids about the struggles you are having?*

I have said some things to my daughter when she asks why mom won't come to visit the grand kids (GKs). I give the over all details and my daughter ask why we are still together. I cut back on why my stays home W won't do much with me. The daughter is divorced from her kids dad and her and the dad have their own issues so I figured she had enough to deal with. 

My W tells me I do too much for our daughter and GKs and sort of resents me for seeing them. When my daughter got divorced, I bought a place for and the GKs to live. I own the property and mobile home. It needed work and I spent 3 month fixing it up and making the yard big dog safe. Like I said, my W resents what I did mostly for the GKs. The oldest GK started to drive (learners permit) and has a job. I fixed up a car for her. As soon as she passes her driving test I won't have to take her to work and some school activities like I sometimes do now, week days when my daughter works.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Handy - 

I am drawn to your posts because your marriage reminds me of my parents marriage, who are also approaching their 50th anniversary and who, unfortunately, are also not happy together. 

It fascinates me and at the same time pains me that two people who have spent more of their life together than apart, can be so unhappy. The idealist in me liked to think that any couple that can make it to 50 years has already climbed all the mountains there are to climb and conquered all the hardships, and has earned the battle scars for a smooth ride into old age together, until death do they part. Obviously, that's just fairytale thinking. 

Sorry if I missed it - do you or your wife have any health problems? You said she spends 14 hrs a day watching TV and doesn't like to visit her daughter or grandkids, it sounds like she is depressed. Is she? 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

pbj2016, maybe wimpy is too strong of a word. I think part of the situation is other people can read me better than I can hide my true feelings or opinions.

People sometimes state their opinions and they seem to get away with it. I get some resistance when I state a conflicting opinion so before I open up I weigh if it is worth saying what I believe in. 

Right now there is a family discussion about good and evil spirits, ghosts if you want a common term. I say ghosts do not exist. If they did and they could move objects or prevent someone from leaving a room or going into a room, there would have to be some type of energy input and output associated to the ghost and that energy should be measurable. If the energy can not be measured, the ghost doesn't exist. So now family members branded me an atheist because they believe in an everlasting spirit. All I want is, show me the scientific proof. If science can measure or count quarks and Higgs boson particles, surely a ghost should give off or absorb some energy that can be measures.

Why do I deal with this sort of stuff, well some people in the family including one GK is into ghosts, Ouija boards, crystals to ward off evil spirits, incantations to bring about good spirits, salt crystals that are suppose to purify the air. My statement was if it cant be measured by a reputable hi-teck university it doesn't exist and the more a person believes in ghosts, the less they are willing to find the reason a door sticks, why someone can not find the car keys, or the real reason doesn't notice the ketchup bottle in the refrigerator right in front of their nose. Believe me, there was no ghost that moved the stuff like my W professes. People often do not see things if they are trying and are under pressure.

OTH maybe I need a Wookiee to ride shot gun when I go to Home Depot. He/she could blast anyone that cut me off or pulled into a parking place I think I saw first. (just kidding)

I suppose hearing a new theory about how things happen or work upsets some long held beliefs so now people don't now what is actually true. I don't want to go back to the Earth being the center of the universe or the church promoting physics based on long held Bible teachings. Yes the Earth will be consumed by heat and what we call fire. When the hydrogen supply and other elements in the sun start to run out, the sun will expand and engulf the orbit the Earth travels in.

Because of solar gravity and heat, hydrogen is converted to helium and that process gives off a lot of heat. Think of E=mc squared. Gold as an element was created when giant stars went super-nova.. Can I prove all of that science? No but people smarter than me seem to have it figured out and they do not have any personal things to gain or lose. some of the math is complicated but the basic information is all over the Internet in college type presentation.

If you want to be amazed, read about the history of the "periodic table" and the people that began the idea and what each succeeding person brought to what we have now. OK this is off the main theme of relationships and how to have a better relationship but it does sort of show why things get off track because people believe things that might not be true but if investigated long and in depth, some of the true answers. slowly emerge.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Kag123, yes I would say there is depression and mostly anxiety. The takes meds for the anxiety. Physical problems, yes some but mostly due to a sedentary lifestyle and low thyroid function but all of her medical tests say she is on the correct amount of Synthroid. The most recent problem was frewuent trips to th bathroom. Anxiety would trigger diarrhea and having to pee "right now." I raced home many times for her but I also have the pee urge and know where all of the restrooms are on my way to and from anyplace in town. I know where there signs that say "restrooms only for paying customers" and I avoid those places.

I go to the gym 2 or 3 times a week, do strength, flexibility, and balance exercises. I do all of the cooking maintenance at home and ride my bicycle abouit100 miles a month when it isn't too cold. Two years ago I re-roofed the house (3000 sqft roof), including carrying the 70# shingle bundles up a ladder and scaffolding. It took me over 2 months to do it and I tore something in my knee just as I was finishing. My orthopedist said to do exercises and it might get better. My knee is better but not as good as it was. I still ride my bicycle seven miled several days a week. I went on several 10-12 mile group rides and one butt killing 25 mile ride. I have 50 mile legs and a 15 mile butt. My orthopedist said I have "weavers bottom" which is a fancy of saying I have a form of sacral/pelvis arthritis.

I push myself. My W babies herself, so that difference is a problem.

Like I said before I need to do things for me and I know expecting anyone to change to my liking is futile. My short term goals are keep active, try to make new and keep old friends, and hopefully lose from 25 to 50 pounds.

ETA
My W sees our daughter as a taker and me as a giver. My daughter talks to us if she has a problem, other wise not very often. I go to the daughter's house but she rarely comes to our house. I agree our daughter is a taker but so is my W. The GKS are too young to be considered takers. Kids need things from parents and grandparents is my opinion. The GKs call but they always need something.

Givers and takers is a book theme. I also have and read "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" by W. Harley / the MB website guy.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

chronicallyfrustrated, I know what is going through my mind at a time influences how I feel about a person or relationship. If I am down, my perception of someone might also be negative. I have observer this short term up or down cycle. If things seem to suck I go on about my business and chalk it up to "OH well, maybe tomorrow or next week/month.


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## chronicallyfrustrated (Jul 21, 2017)

Handy,

To be quite brutally honest, I'm confused as to why you started a thread about your DW, emotional security and sex drive. I'm curious, do you assume your DW's distance is from low sex drive alone? It really sounds like there is a lot of other things going on in your marriage that seem extremely toxic, and you don't speak highly of your wife (or, frankly, of yourself, other than the ways in which you strive to be better.)

Are you trying to rekindle a healthy emotional relationship with your wife, or are you looking for an outlet to reflect realistically on your self and muster the confidence to walk away? From the way you've spoken here, it sounds like you've got a lot to gain from independence, and it sounds like you don't have much patience or compassion left for DW's mental and physical health problems. What's the hold up? Not trying to be overly critical, just curious what your motives or intentions are.

Thanks for your thoughts!
Kayla


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

chronicallyfrustrated, the reason I chose the title wasn't related to my current situation. It might be related to my marriage 25 years ago and it seemed to be something I didn't consider happening very often to other women. i read and watch a lot of relationship material and this video came up with a new to me concept. I will probably find something I never thought of or only skimmed the surface that will get me curious.

For instance, I recently read 5 years worth of posts from people that have affair partners and I wanted to know what drove them to have an affair with someone for 15 years. I am reading the posts without judging good or bad but I am primarily interested in how they do it, what they they get from the affair (their own personal enrichment) What is absent in the marital relationship, and how it affects their married life. One woman is married to a man that turned gay after they has a couple of children, so now she has a regular lover. and her husband has his gay friend. She wants to raise her kids with the kids dad so thy are staying together until the kids are in college. One guy is a player with 3 FWBs and spends $500 a month on his play toys. Like on TAM, some women get rejected sexually by their supposedly great and loving husbands. The list goes on. It isn't acceptable by most christian standards, but it works for some people.

i have read books about courting and marriage customs through out the centuries and in different societies. I am amazed how many practices have taken place since mankind has changed since the stone ages. There are more than several hundred mariage and mate selection practices we would think and say "NO WAY in a million years."

I have read so many books, tried things that I thought would work but did for a week or two, then made the relationship worse. Several years ago I finally realized nothing is working so why try. I gradually switched to doing things for me as IF I was in a brother sister family, operating under almost married rules.

Yes it is emotionally lonely living like this for both of us but I haven't found the least painful way to pull the plug. I am just giving up on expecting any changes. Dashed hopes are one cause of depression. Ii tossed my depression pills out 9 months ago along with some other mental things. Life is getting better little by little.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Previou trauma an FOO may be a factor.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In a nutshell, it is completely normal and reasonable for her to not want sex if she does not feel safe or valued. The issue can be that what she demands to feel "safe and valued" is unreasonable.

Your wife might need a man to be invested in her long term well-being to want sex. Thus, in addition to assessing "does he really want/respect me", she would assess "would he be a responsible partner and help care for me" (in case of pregnancy). And that is still reasonable.

Where your wife goes off the rails is the magnitude of her expectations. As in, a reasonable woman would see that you work hard and take care of business, and be okay (If not overjoyed) with that. Your wife, OTOH, has an objectively high lifestyle expectation. And it should happen without her contribution. And you need to put her above yourself to make it happen, if needed.

Unless her perspective does a complete 180, you need to cut her loose. You should not have to deal with that kind of pressure if you lack for nothing now. And even if you managed to bump up your income, there is always going to be a bigger house, some experience, or some bauble for her to covet; you'll never make her happy.

I have been there and done that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

The anger is from her expectations not being met. She expected and was very invested in a soft life at his provision. Her having to work, not having the house she wants, his income decline are all his fault, in her eyes.

Basically, she lives in a bubble where the only thing that matters is the gap between her aspirations and her reality. His past challenges (injury), current industriousness, and her failure to contribute meaningfully to those aspirations or his well-being are irrelevant to her.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Why so angry? I can see where complacent and unattached came in but that is different than anger and hurtful


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

What if you took all the time and energy you spend reading relationship books and websites and applied that time and energy into ditching her and finding someone else?


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Oldshirt
What if you took all the time and energy you spend reading relationship books and websites and applied that time and energy into ditching her and finding someone else?*

Finding someone else has always been on the wrong side (-) of my plus vs. minus list. It is difficult to make the mental move without feeling a lot of guilt, even though it is an easy task when I look at things when I remove the facts about how some people (wife) would react. If it was a business decision (cost-benefit) I would have done it a long time ago.

Some people on the affair forum also have the same problem. The men are listed as "guilt kings" and the women that feel guilty for thinking about or being in an affair are labeled "guilt queens."

The guilt thing is part of the spectrum of human emotions. I also remember hearing religious married couples that didn't get along saying they could strangle their spouse (kill) but never divorce because of their religious beliefs. I used to be religious but now I am more agnostic and lean to simple moral ethics somewhat inline with Kolber's Moral Ethics Models.

I am doing some things that very religious people would consider a form of ending the rules that could lead to cheating. I do some maintenance task for 2 widows that I was friends with their H before he died. One lady used to go to the gym where I go but she had to quit driving so now I take her with me when I go to yoga 2X a week. If she needs a few groceries or needs to pick up a prescription and I do too, we stop at the supermarket. I almost always tell my W about these stops. Both ladies appreciate the help I extend and it is good to talk with people that aren't critical of things I do or do not do.

My W doesn't like my car because it is small, it has a manual transmission (jerky to my W), no air conditioning, and no power windows/door locks. I sort of apologized to the lady that goes to yoga with me, (based on my W's complaints) about the lack of extras my car is missing but she said she likes my car and I shouldn't apologize for what my car has or doesn't have. I like cars with very few extras. A few days a year air conditioning would be nice but I manage OK with out A/C. On hot days I usually find some shade when I park the car. I tell people I have 2-25 A/C which is roll down 2 windows and drive 25 MPH.

My W's car, which she rarely drives (less than 500 a year), has all of the extras so she isn't doing without. I replace things on her car long before they go bad because breaking down on the road is a big no-no with her in the car. If we visit someone or eat out together, i drive her car which adds another thousand or two miles to the odometer per year. I work on her car more than I do mine (6,000 a year). We might be putting 500 miles on her car going to a family event. If I do a day trip by myself or run errands, I use my car. 

Oldshirt, back to your question. Me reading about affairs is one way that is leaning towards putting some effort into an additional external relationship. I do not have any woman on a string. All of my internet posts are in public forums so nothing is happening on a one to one basis except a few private messages from a few women saying I an betraying my W by being on a forum and airing our dirty laundry.

A long time ago a woman on a forum asked me if I wanted to start sexting with her but I said, interesting concept. but no. I said my preference was face to face as a friend only until I can determine the future good outcome for everyone involved.

I just remembered my W wanting to learn square dancing so we went to a training group for 4 weeks. My W thought it was too difficult so she quit but I kept going to the lessons for the remaining 6 months. I had several semi regular partners but they were way younger than me, had kids and were married. Their H didn't want to dance with anyone, lucky me.  I liked square dancing so much I went back the next year and had a 20 yr younger than me partner and several 14 yr old girls I also danced with.

The second year I decided I was sort of really liking the one partner a little too much. I felt it was better to end the year as planned and not go back in the fall. Square Dancing locally is mostly a family and an October to May thing.

So, yes I sort of dabbled in the looking part without keeping it a secret from my W. I tried to keep it on a strictly honest friends level, never doing anything that someone would consider more than polite and gentlemen like.


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