# "I can't change the past"



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Is anyone else sick to death of hearing this from their WS? Really??? I thought you could get in your time machine and make it all right.  Sometimes I trigger and unleash on her (we are divorcing). I ask why, tell her she's cruel and selfish. "Beating me down won't help anything. Don't you think I'm hurting too? I can't change the past".

No, but sometimes you have to eat some sh*t for being an awful person.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Evidently I'm triggering hard today.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

WW is right the past can not be undone.

Divorcing or not divorcing there comes a time when the BH has to stop calling his WW a hoe, and other endearing names such as that one.

How long ago was your dday?

Why are you divorcing your WW instead of recovering?


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

theroad said:


> Why are you divorcing your WW instead of recovering?


Can't he be doing both??


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

Yep I get "I made a mistake, I am sorry I hurt you". However he continues to do the exact same thing every day.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

They also can't prove a negative

Maddening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't hear that any more cuz " Mrs. the-guy *can* change the future"....

Cuz this guy ain't forgeting the past so *her* furure depends on it.....at least with me!

At the end of the day your old lady screwed you over...if she gives a sh!t she will take her licks and face one of many consequences for her betrayal....but thats just me.


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## tmbirdy (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm not understanding? What did you do? She is obviously very hurt?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

People are human. They can be selfish, cruel, vindictive, total knobs etc... but that just shows that they are human.

My EX can set me off. I find that she does it really on purpose, because it gives her some sense of control over me. 

The point is you may be very angry with her/him but the anger does no good to anyone. I took my anger to the gym with me so I turned it to a positive. There is no need to put it in the WS face. It does no good. Live a good life and just move on. They will most likely eat a $h1t sandwich. They will know it when they do so you don't need to tell them. All you are doing is lashing out at them and they get some sense of sick control over you for doing it. Move on. Don't bother.

I'm sorry you are here brother. God bless.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

pollywog said:


> Yep I get "I made a mistake, I am sorry I hurt you". However he continues to do the exact same thing every day.


insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a change

Unless your old man is expecting the same results...or you are expecting the same results, then either one of you are completely sane.

Now polly if you keep doing the same thing and expect different results...well then girl your insane

But I'm putting money on your old man, as far as who is actually insane!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Healer said:


> No, but sometimes you have to eat some sh*t for being an awful person.


I hate to put it bluntly Dawg but if she's willing to betray you and lay down with another guy why do you think she'd be willing to, "eat some sh*t for being an awful person". There's a lot of people that do bad stuff that never feel bad about doing it. You're expecting more than she's willing to give and the world will keep right on turning.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> I hate to put it bluntly Dawg but if she's willing to betray you and lay down with another guy why do you think she'd be willing to, "eat some sh*t for being an awful person". There's a lot of people that do bad stuff that never feel bad about doing it. You're expecting more than she's willing to give and the world will keep right on turning.


Thats what seperates the truely remorseful versus the unremorseful....the remorseful take it and " I can change the future" versus the " I can"t change the past" ...IMHO

When we trigger as betrayed, its up to the remorseful as waywards to face the fact that their past actions are the cause and acknowledging what they can do to help not excape with some bull sh1t statement!

I mean really just leave out the word "past" and just leave it as "I can change"...no " I *will* change cuz all I want is you"


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Dude. You are banned but still, if you log off and read this, this is an important lesson.

Let. It. Go.

You state you are divorcing. Guess what? Once you do that, you are no longer allowed to give her a cafeteria tray with a steaming pile of feces on it and tell her 'eat hearty!' just to make yourself feel better. 

Instead, you have unequivocally told her 'you are an unworthy person who I do not want to be around anymore'.

That is a powerful message all by itself.

Wanting to see another person suffer to make yourself feel better is human...but it isn't laudable.

Please note: if you were Reconciling, I feel she should be a lot more patient over the emotional battering. Part of it is patience while you recover. Part of it is consequences. But even there, there is a fine line between 'venting' and 'emotional abuse'.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

the guy said:


> Thats what seperates the truely remorseful versus the unremorseful....the remorseful take it and " I can change the future" versus the " I can"t change the past" ...IMHO
> 
> When we trigger as betrayed, its up to the remorseful as waywards to face the fact that their past actions are the cause and acknowledging what they can do to help not excape with some bull sh1t statement!
> 
> I mean really just leave out the word "past" and just leave it as "I can change"...no " I *will* change cuz all I want is you"


Yes, but it can also go too far. Too frequently, the BS only remembers the pain and forgets the love.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

the guy said:


> insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a changeUnless your old man is expecting the same results...or you are expecting the same results, then either one of you are completely sane.
> Now polly if you keep doing the same thing and expect different results...well then girl your insane
> 
> *But I'm putting money on your old man, as far as who is actually insane!:*)


Exactly! He must be having some sort of life crisis - who knows. We are basically room mates right now until all is finalized, house is sold etc. The thing that gets me is he is so flipping nice lately and cannot seem to do enough to make my day easier. Sad thing is I know it is all fake. Had he tried this hard before he hooked up with old skanky high school GF, we may not be at this point right now. He actually wants both of us :scratchhead: but not happening in my marriage. I don't like to share, never have and never will.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> Yes, but it can also go too far. Too frequently, the BS only remembers the pain and forgets the love.


But how does on know there was ever love in the first place? I ask this as it seems that the BS usually thought things were fine and nothing was wrong, yet the WS has all sorts of thoughts to the opposite. So according to the WS what the BS thought was love was not love at all. After hearing this for so many history re-writings, how does the BS know that love even ever existed in the first place? IS this just something that they are supposed to trust (especially when all trust is broken)?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> But how does on know there was ever love in the first place? I ask this as it seems that the BS usually thought things were fine and nothing was wrong, yet the WS has all sorts of thoughts to the opposite. So according to the WS what the BS thought was love was not love at all. After hearing this for so many history re-writings, how does the BS know that love even ever existed in the first place? IS this just something that they are supposed to trust (especially when all trust is broken)?


Please don't take this the wrong way, but that is a very cynical view, which is based upon the concept that cheaters are just 'damaged goods'. They were never honest, can't be honest, can't have emotions like love, and that they are just (and frequently always will be) *bad people.*

But looking back and trying to fit all of the prior history with the WS into this lens is just as much 'rewriting history' as anything the WS does to rationalize their crappy behavior.

How about this view of history? A couple gets together. For a variety of motives, each personal to the individual, they get married. They at least THINK they are in love...or as much love as they are personally capable of (this varies quite a bit). Maybe they are deluding themselves. Maybe there are huge flaws in their compatibility. Maybe they are not honest to themselves.

But except for a VERY few cases, the people generally go into this with reasonably honorable intentions (do not look at Anna Nicole Smith)

Then the rubber hits the road.

And things aren't so rosy. No one envisions leaky roofs, medical bills, that thing he said to my mother, her 'moods' etc.

And if they lack communication, they don't fix these little resentments until the marriage is seriously compromised. Which leads to straight up divorce (which is very painful), or cheating (which is very painful) or a couple coexisting in quiet desperation (which is...you get the picture)

But this assumes that the cheater actually has ethics of some sort and that real love may have existed at one point.

I would suggest that cheating indicates a bit more love than JUST ending the marriage. They still find some good in their spouse...enough to not end it. (Sometimes) If they REALLY hated and had zero feelings, they'd have left.

But that is a minority opinion.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD,
I see and appreciate your point. I am not trying to be cynical, just posing a question/ possible truth. What if there never was love there from the beginning? There is a difference when things happen as you suggest, but what about situations existing where the WS says that they never had love from the beginning and married solely out of pity?? You find things that could go either way, yet with their confession you start to view it in that light. You never before thought it was or could have been that bad, but you now wonder if their confession was out of spite and hurtfulness or for once have they finally started to face the music and become truthful???


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

JCD said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but that is a very cynical view, which is based upon the concept that cheaters are just 'damaged goods'. They were never honest, can't be honest, can't have emotions like love, and that they are just (and frequently always will be) *bad people.*
> 
> But looking back and trying to fit all of the prior history with the WS into this lens is just as much 'rewriting history' as anything the WS does to rationalize their crappy behavior.
> 
> ...


I'm going to respectfully disagree, up to a point. When trust has been broken by the WS, and lies have been told by the WS, the BS has every right to question past events. Furthermore, they should, particularly during the initial discovery and healing period. When a BS "can't make it" to an evening out, a birthday celebration, a ballgame, and you later find out it was because they were engaged with the OW, your are being naive not to question your history. When you discover multiple A, it is not cynical to question everything. Real love does not involve multiple lies over periods of time. Real love starts with respect for your partner.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

"I can't change the past!" is in the script. And repeated. And repeated. We have all heard it again and again. It's a transparent tactic of suggesting that you are being unreasonable or ridiculous for getting stuck on the lies and the hurt (yeah, you will get past that one way or another, but for a while it is pretty rough and you don't need the person who put you there shreiking plaintively or even defiantly that the past is the past and there is nothing they can do). It bears some resemblance to "Get over it!"


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> "I can't change the past!" is in the script. And repeated. And repeated. We have all heard it again and again. It's a transparent tactic of suggesting that you are being unreasonable or ridiculous for getting stuck on the lies and the hurt (yeah, you will get past that one way or another, but for a while it is pretty rough and you don't need the person who put you there shreiking plaintively or even defiantly that the past is the past and there is nothing they can do). It bears some resemblance to "Get over it!"


Nailed


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> I'm going to respectfully disagree, up to a point. When trust has been broken by the WS, and lies have been told by the WS, the BS has every right to question past events. Furthermore, they should, particularly during the initial discovery and healing period. When a *W*S "can't make it" to an evening out, a birthday celebration, a ballgame, and you later find out it was because they were engaged with the OW, your are being naive not to question your history. When you discover multiple A, it is not cynical to question everything. Real love does not involve multiple lies over periods of time. Real love starts with respect for your partner.


Certainly 'multiple A's' should lead you to some questioning.

However, while sometimes what you say is totally accurate, sometimes, it is not. To wit: say you have been married for 20 years. You discover your wife had an affair, as the best forensic probing you can do determines that she only had a six month affair since she was caught.

Does that make the prior 19.5 years a lie? Maybe...but more likely, maybe not. But that is not the question that Squeakr asked. She asked was there EVER love.

Now, you can make a good argument (though not a perfect one) that from the start of Affair 1 there was no love...but unless Affair 1 started the day after the wedding (yes...I know...we've actually had people claiming that happened to them) Okay BARRING those moral reprobates, essentially you need to claim (and likely rewrite) that there was never love. Maybe that is a defense mechanism. It isn't healthy.

One rather wise thing someone else wrote stuck with me:

Paraphrased "If your partner cheats on you and you did NOTHING wrong, than divorce her and let her find out how other people treat her. If you were a sucky partner, man the fvck up, admit it, divorce her after she cheats, and try to be a better partner to the next person."

Just like a WS rewrites things to justify their crappy moral decision ("Can't he get the socks into the hamper!"), so too does the defensive mental SPOUSE analysis defeat any SELF analysis about what actually happened to the marriage from your (generic) end.

As I've said before, very few spouses wake up one morning and say "you know what? I just want to try out a new c0ck/pvssy today..." It's more involved than that.

@Squeakr

Yes, sometimes those people exist. My comments don't apply to them. And some people were self deluded enough to THINK they were in love, but weren't. Not really. But that is a matter of self deception, not spouse deception. They don't even know they are lying about the love. How could they? In the majority of cases, I think my thoughts run slightly more true.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> Certainly 'multiple A's' should lead you to some questioning.
> 
> However, while sometimes what you say is totally accurate, sometimes, it is not. To wit: say you have been married for 20 years. You discover your wife had an affair, as the best forensic probing you can do determines that she only had a six month affair since she was caught.
> 
> ...


That's what I am talking about (and for the record I am male, not a she or her). I have/had the scenario you described exactly where I thought the WW just up and one day started to become disillusioned with the M and eventually after a time cheated (she said it was an exit A as she was done). I knew the marriage wasn't perfect (none are, and I never claimed our's was) but thought we were fine like all the others (my family included) just in a rut, the cruise control of marriages if you will. Turns out she tells me she has never wanted M with me from the start. I see things there (I would possibly classify as EAs throughout the M, and yes within the 1st year) but I never thought things were bad and trusted her, so I never saw them then. She never actually cheated until we had been together 16 years and married 12, but the signs of betrayal were there all along in her actions. This is why I asked if there never EVER was love. I thought there was love and according to her she never did. She agrees we had good times, but that doesn't equate to love. So just because one person sees the M as fine and full of love, doesn't mean it is always there (and that was my question, as we can only get one side of the story on TAM usually)!!!


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

I can't change the past... Please hold the rug up while I sweep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I got the same “I can’t change the past.” I remind her not so kindly that it is her past and not mine. Mine is different.

Who she is as a person is my history with her and impressions. It is no longer a good impression; That is current, not past. I didn’t think those things until DD... suspected, but didn’t really believe she would do that. So unfortunately for her, her past actions even years ago are now my very current state of mind in regards to who the hell she is as a human being and whether or not she brings happiness or misery. She might “be over it already”, but I am not. She had a long time to think about it and make choices... This was thrust upon me in a quite traumatizing way that leaves me questioning the reality versus illusion of our relationship. So she had damn well better bring her A-game to change my current perception of who she is and whether that is something I still want in my life.

That is how I handled “I can’t change the past.” attempts to rugsweep.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> People are human. They can be selfish, cruel, vindictive, total knobs etc... but that just shows that they are human.
> 
> My EX can set me off. I find that she does it really on purpose, because it gives her some sense of control over me.
> 
> ...


Great advice, and true. Thanks.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

theroad said:


> WW is right the past can not be undone.
> 
> Divorcing or not divorcing there comes a time when the BH has to stop calling his WW a hoe, and other endearing names such as that one.
> 
> ...


I didn't call her a hoe. I don't call her any names.

D because of the level of betrayal, the depravity, the heinousness of it. That and my wife having sex with another man is a deal breaker for me. It's black and white for this guy.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Dude. You are banned but still, if you log off and read this, this is an important lesson.
> 
> Let. It. Go.
> 
> ...


Asking her how she could do this is not "emotional abuse". I don't yell, I don't call her names. I express disbelief, and bewilderment. I have never got an answer from her why or how she could do it. I realize I never will, but sometimes I'm compelled to ask why. I'm nowhere near abusing her in any way. She owes me an explanation for destroying our family. 

"No longer allowed"? Are you a BS?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Yes, but it can also go too far. Too frequently, the BS only remembers the pain and forgets the love.


I will admit this is very, very true. You know why? Because it's too bloody painful. Unless you've been a BS, you can't understand.

It's sad but true. That's one of the many, many brutal parts of infidelity. It destroys the memories of the past as well as everything else. She swears it was only 1 long term affair. I do not and can not believe that. Therefore, the entire marriage was a lie, and so "love" was an illusion, and a big, fat, bald faced lie.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> "I can't change the past!" is in the script. And repeated. And repeated. We have all heard it again and again. It's a transparent tactic of suggesting that you are being unreasonable or ridiculous for getting stuck on the lies and the hurt (yeah, you will get past that one way or another, but for a while it is pretty rough and you don't need the person who put you there shreiking plaintively or even defiantly that the past is the past and there is nothing they can do). It bears some resemblance to "Get over it!"


YES.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Healer said:


> Is anyone else sick to death of hearing this from their WS? Really??? I thought you could get in your time machine and make it all right.  Sometimes I trigger and unleash on her (we are divorcing). I ask why, tell her she's cruel and selfish. "Beating me down won't help anything. Don't you think I'm hurting too? *I can't change the past"*.
> 
> No, but sometimes you have to eat some sh*t for being an awful person.


But why are they sometimes so averse to helping their poor BS and children, if there are any, making a better future, together?:scratchhead:

That's what some former WS have done on TAM. They made a better future, together.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

You can't change the past.

You can examine your past and learn from it.

You can try to understand how it negatively impacted those around you.

You can take responsibility for your past actions.

I'm sure there are other ways of answering this as well.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> You state you are divorcing. Guess what? Once you do that, you are no longer allowed to give her a cafeteria tray with a steaming pile of feces on it and tell her 'eat hearty!' just to make yourself feel better.


Ah, no. He can serve her that plate of feces during the divorce, after the divorce and until he's put in his grave, if that's what he wants. If the WS chooses to be a pig, let them eat like one. If doing this makes him feel the least bit better, then go for it. I know I would. I do believe the WS deserves this kind of crap, lots and lots of it.



JCD said:


> Please note: if you were Reconciling, I feel she should be a lot more patient over the emotional battering. Part of it is patience while you recover. Part of it is consequences. But even there, there is a fine line between 'venting' and 'emotional abuse'


It's only a return of the emotional abuse that the WS dished out during the affair.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> Yes, but it can also go too far. Too frequently, the BS only remembers the pain and forgets the love.


Comedic gold.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Ah, no. He can serve her that plate of feces during the divorce, after the divorce and until he's put in his grave, if that's what he wants. If the WS chooses to be a pig, let them eat like one. If doing this makes him feel the least bit better, then go for it. I know I would. I do believe the WS deserves this kind of crap, lots and lots of it.
> 
> 
> It's only a return of the emotional abuse that the WS dished out during the affair.





thatbpguy said:


> Comedic gold.


Your condemnation is all the accolades I need.

But Middleman, your post reminds me of an experience I had. I was tasked to sit on a Grand Jury, where we the victims...I mean jurors, hear testimony from other victims, police and lawyers to decide if someone should have to face trial (for our international readers: In America, first a group of people needs to decide if someone should even FACE trial...and another group decides if they are guilty.)

So...for reasons known only to the scheduler, we had two rape cases the same day.

In one, this woman was sharing a house with a bunch of people, and one of them pressed himself on her late at night and essentially held her down and had his way with her. She was crying the entire time of testimony, very emotionally distraught.

The other was trying to get a divorce. Her husband was stalking her. Eventually, he BROKE INTO HER HOUSE, she HID HER CHILD IN THE CLOSET, and he FORCED HER TO HAVE SEX AT KNIFEPOINT.

I fell in love with this woman! She was angry and focused and direct...but DAMN, she had character.

She treated it as a horrible event that happened, was over, and she needed to deal with the garbage in her life and get on with things.

The other seemed (perhaps I am uncharitable here) to be making this event the focal point of her life. She had a victim card forever. If a relationship failed, well...she could blame it all on THAT. If she wasn't good at work, why...she had this trauma which she never got over (or tried to get over).

Now, I've never been raped. I've never been cheated on. But as an 'objective observer' (which we all claim to be here on TAM, which supposedly gives us uber super insights), I'd be willing to bet that being held down at knifepoint while a man I used to love rapes me while my BABY is hidden in a closet is a WEE bit more traumatic than finding out that the idiot I married (giggle) decided to sample some strange.

That day in the jury box taught me a serious life lesson on how to deal with emotional trauma. One can be a Rookie04, and throw out the garbage and get on with life.

Or...there is the other path.

But that requires putting down the pitchfork of feces which some seem to feel they are justified in carrying FOREVER.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> Your condemnation is all the accolades I need.
> 
> But Middleman, your post reminds me of an experience I had. I was tasked to sit on a Grand Jury, where we the victims...I mean jurors, hear testimony from other victims, police and lawyers to decide if someone should have to face trial (for our international readers: In America, first a group of people needs to decide if someone should even FACE trial...and another group decides if they are guilty.)
> 
> ...


A little extream with the anologies there JCD?

These women rightfully sought justice and there is a system for that. With infidelity, there is no real system to get justice for that particular crime because society doesn't consider it a crime. The only satisfaction a BS can get is to exert their own little pound of flesh if that's what suits them. Some are good at using the courts for that (like my ex sister-in-law, who for 20 years has been taking my BIL to court) and others do it by destroying reputations and making thier lives difficult (like my ex SIL did). More power to them if it helps the BS in any way. For you to say the BS has no right to do that if going for "D" is hopelessly wrong and proven wrong by the actions of hundreds of BS's around the country very day. Only the weak don't want some form of revenge.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> A little extream with the anologies there JCD?
> 
> These women rightfully sought justice and there is a system for that. With infidelity, there is no real system to get justice for that particular crime because society doesn't consider it a crime. The only satisfaction a BS can get is to exert their own little pound of flesh if that's what suits them. Some are good at using the courts for that (like my ex sister-in-law, who for 20 years has been taking my BIL to court) and others do it by destroying reputations and making thier lives difficult (like my ex SIL did). More power to them if it helps the BS in any way. For you to say the BS has no right to do that if going for "D" is hopelessly wrong and proven wrong by the actions of hundreds of BS's around the country very day. Only the weak don't want some form of revenge.


Hundreds of people 'get their own back' by stealing. Hundreds of people 'get even' by beating other people.

Just because 'hundreds of people' do it doesn't make it correct, justified or moral.

The reason we have a court of laws is so someone ACTUALLY objective can say 'Enough! You have done as much as your are justified." The problem with infidelity, is that it is very much 'he said/she said'. The BS may feel that they were God's Gift to Matrimony, but obviously someone else voted quite differently. Who are we supposed to believe? It is beyond human judgment.

Under your system, we throw that away for 'when I feel like I've done enough.' Lots of women in shelters under that doctrine.

Sorry, not buying that.

Better throw out the trash and get on with life.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> Under your system, we throw that away for 'when I feel like I've done enough.' Lots of women in shelters under that doctrine.


Again, your being extreme with your analogies and that just doesn't interest me. It probably makes most people discount your postings. There are WW's and WH's; I advocate the same for both.



JCD said:


> Sorry, not buying that.


You don't have to. People are going to do what they are going to do, and I'm just fine with that, as long as they stay withing reasonable confines of the law.



JCD said:


> Better throw out the trash and get on with life.


On that we agree. I just think how hard they kick the trash to the curb is up to the BS. And no one is going to tell me that the WS didn't deserve it.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

They absolutely do deserve it. And the rape analogy is insulting to victims.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Again, your being extreme with your analogies and that just doesn't interest me. It probably makes most people discount your postings. There are WW's and WH's; I advocate the same for both.
> 
> 
> You don't have to. People are going to do what they are going to do, and I'm just fine with that, as long as they stay withing reasonable confines of the law.
> ...


But you aren't talking about 'kicking'. I wouldn't debate about 'kicking'. You are talking about how the WS OWES it to you to be your emotional punching bag as often as you get a feeling of anger, hate or frustration.

I have a problem with that. Read your own words.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

I am Divorced. It is a year soon and 2.5 years since Dday. 
My ExW still wants to "explain and apologize" but it always ended up hurting me, and because of that she would be hurt too because I would trigger badly and serve the hurt back in equal measure, sometimes she would get a double helping. 

We have trouble being civil at all and this is awful after having spent 25 years together, many of those years were good. We used to call ourselves lucky. I guess she forgot. 
Having spent all my adult life with this person I can't really afford to believe that it has all been a lie. That she never loved me and that she never loved her children. I don't believe it because it is not true. 

A few weeks ago I decided to reconcile. 

I decided to let all that pain go and let all then all the anger go. No more fighting. 

I reconciled with myself and when she said again that "she loves me like a brother". I just replied that I no longer wanted to hear that anymore. It is fine she thinks it and acts on it. It is fine that she feels that way. It is fine that I am not the man for her anymore. It is all fine. Because: "Frankly my dear. I don't give a damn."


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

ing said:


> I am Divorced. It is a year soon and 2.5 years since Dday.
> My ExW still wants to "explain and apologize" but it always ended up hurting me, and because of that she would be hurt too because I would trigger badly and serve the hurt back in equal measure, sometimes she would get a double helping.
> 
> We have trouble being civil at all and this is awful after having spent 25 years together, many of those years were good. We used to call ourselves lucky. I guess she forgot.
> ...


And how are you feeling as a result?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> Now, I've never been raped. I've never been cheated on. But as an 'objective observer' (which we all claim to be here on TAM, which supposedly gives us uber super insights), I'd be willing to bet that being held down at knifepoint while a man I used to love rapes me while my BABY is hidden in a closet is a WEE bit more traumatic than finding out that the idiot I married (giggle) decided to sample some strange.


The analogies you have presented are unfair. Rape is completely different than infidelity and the two should not be compared. One is power based and not about the sex, it is about the controlling of another person and getting what one wants through fear, power, and humiliation. The other is based upon the removal of love for one person and giving that love to another, a huge betrayal of the vows and morals shared between two people. 

You say you are "objective" but when you describe the two, you give horrific details regrading the one act, yet the other you describe with giddyness and playfulness. That in itself shows little concern for the victims of infidelity. Why didn't you describe the first incident as a rape with her being drunk and then having someone taking advantage of her in that state by having sex when she was not fully willing to consent, waking the next morning to regrets, shame , and fear and no weapons being involved? It seems that most rapes in this day are of those types, yet you compare a violent act against one of relative tameness. You chose these descriptions so that you could garner support for your viewpoints, but if we were to compare them equally wouldn't we have to take the worst of the infidelity cases agains the worst of the rape cases. It is like comparing a ferrari and a ford focus and saying which is faster?

For the most part, people on here never claim to be "Objective" as you state we do. The claims are that we have been there already, so learn from our mistakes and advice and spare yourselves the same excess pain I have gone through by not repeating what I have already done. It is hard to say what anyone feels or will feel in a situation, until you have been there. I would have always thought that the death of someone would be the worst pain that one could experience, but infidelity is worse for me (and from what I read lots of other people here feel the same thing). 

Just because something is traumatic doesn't make it worse, harder, or more painful for the people involved than something deemed not traumatic. The birth of a child is a happy and high point in most peoples lives and viewed as a positive, but it can also be the hardest and most life changing and stressful event as it causes one to rethink and change everything about them and their life.

Just because someone's event doesn't appear as traumatic to the third party, doesn't make it so. I feel bad for all the people that are betrayed on here, but feel more remorse towards the people that are together for decades and have children, houses, and businesses together, than for those that are just dating and/ or engaged without any obligations. Does it mean that the infidelity for the first couple deserves more support than the second, no! Does it mean that the second couple hurts less than the first, no again! They are different and that is that. Because one person appears stronger than another in similar situations doesn't make one better than the other (such as in your rape examples how you said the first was strong and moved on, while the second is using hers as an excuse for life's failures. Not knowing these people how can you say you were objective when you made these observations?).


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

You can quibble about how unfair my analogies are. Traumatic is traumatic. True. But a girl who spills ink on her prom dress 10 minutes before her date arrives is also 'traumatized'. Get a grip. Judgment DOES allow you to pick and choose between that and infidelity and rape on the spectrum of awfulness. I am not a relativist.

But the meta point remain which is undeniable, hence the incredible swiftness to discredit the message by resorting to false analogies.

And that point is this: Even with that incredible and horrible event in her life, which may or may not be comparable to infidelity, this very special woman was TRYING TO GET OVER IT! She was compartmentalizing it. She was treating it as A factor in her life, not the LYNCHPIN of it.

I think this is a far healthier option to look at life. If my beloved wife cheated on me, yeah, it would hurt. It would hurt a lot. But I would 'rewrite history' enough to be able to shake the dust off my heart and leave her behind as much as possible. HER choices are not my responsibility. So she loses a bunch of IQ points in my estimation and gets considered like the person she is. I'll own my share of the marriage issues. If I was a bad spouse, I don't have much of a kick coming.

My point is that people can get over horrible situations. Like rape. Like infidelity. Like losing a limb.

But here...we have at least two people who feel that their betrayers OWE them as much emotional abuse as they care to throw at them for the rest of their days.

No...only until you get divorced. Kick them to the curb. Kick them HARD...but once they hit that curb, they aren't your punch dummy anymore. And as long as you think you are 'owed' this, you aren't moving away from that horribly unhealthy focus in your life.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

illwill said:


> They absolutely do deserve it. And the rape analogy is insulting to victims.


No, I can identify with exactly what he's talking about. 

I was a grand juror myself, and I saw the difference in the way victims reacted.

I'll never forget the one that had a guy she was dating for 6 months tried to turn her into a battered girlfriend. The strong indignity about refusing to "be one of those women who go back" was incredibly powerful. NO WAY was she going to let him get away with it.

PS - JCD comment about being a "victim" as a juror: I'll never be able to get the child molestation cases out of my mind. Sick MFERS!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> You can quibble about how unfair my analogies are. Traumatic is traumatic. True. But a girl who spills ink on her prom dress 10 minutes before her date arrives is also 'traumatized'. Get a grip. Judgment DOES allow you to pick and choose between that and infidelity and rape on the spectrum of awfulness. I am not a relativist.
> 
> But the meta point remain which is undeniable, hence the incredible swiftness to discredit the message by resorting to false analogies.
> 
> ...


 Time to take your blinder's off. You aren't any more "knowledgeable" here than the rest of us. So you see her as strong and compartmentalizing the situation and moving on. Maybe that is how she deals with everything and has her whole life. We know nothing of her history, and neither do you, as in court situations the parties involved and the judges get to see what information you are presented and dismiss/ disallow things not connected. Most WS have the innate ability to compartmentalize and shut things down and move on, whereas most BS don't. This is just a fact, and may play into the reasons behind infidelity and recovery (future studies may find this out). The other woman didn't act like you would like to see, so you see her as a burden on society for the rest of her life, as she won't move on and will constantly use this as an excuse (nice way to judge her for her traumatic reaction). It generally takes 2-5 years to recover from infidelity, so why should she be expected to recover any faster from such a heinous act as rape (and some may never recover, but is that there fault, s you kind of make it out that it is their responsibility to recover and move on.).

Having never been cheated on (by your own admission), you have no idea the hurt and the betrayal that the WS has dealt to the BS and for how long and how hard it is for the BS to recover. No one really does as each individual is different in situation and how they deal with things. You feel that they should just move on in whatever time frame you see fit, even though they might have been getting that plate of feces for years. I feel that the BS has the right to feed that same plate to the WS for as long as they see fit (the WS did the same thing and most just write it off as the collateral damage of the situation. Not me!). I think also that as long as the WS is in legal connection with the BS then they have to take it come what may. Doesn't matter if the D is final. Are they still receiving alimony, child support, are children involved? Then the BS can serve it up as they see fit, as believe me (seen it in lots of people) the WS can and lots of times still use every opportuninty to put the BS down and make them the scapegoat in everything. I could serve my WS this for the rest of my life and never do a portion of the damage to her that she has done to me. If you never have experienced it, you will never understand it (and I don't expect you to), just realize that not everyone operates under your time frame and design. Would you just tell a PTSD soldier of Vietnam to just move on. I mean the war is over, so just move one right??? I will not tell you your way is wrong, as if it works for you then so be it. So please don't tell me what is best for me or others and just accept that you are not the master of all. Is it vindictive? Sure, but doesn't make your way right, better probably, but not right. No right and wrong really exist here, as long as law aren't broken. If the WS doesn't like it then tell them to move on and away and stop interacting with the BS or stop talking about. thinking about, or referring to them. Have them just move on as well.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

"I can't change the past" - No, and unfortunately neither can I, because if I could, I wouldn't marry you in the first place...

I think there's room for a middle way here. There's some distance from JCD's "shake the dust off and get over it within a week" and Middlemans "I have a God given right to violate other people forever if they've done me worng".

How about this. Everybody is different people and react differently to trauma. While there may be people out there who can just forget the whole thing and move on fast, I think they're few.

I agree with JCD that you'll have more peace in mind once you're able to let the betrayal go and move on - and it's even more important if you choose to rebuild with your spouse. But I also get the impression that you (JCD) is a bit arrogant in your judgement of the feelings, pain and consequences of being betrayed this way, when you haven't actually been there yourself. I can say with certainty that I thought that I would have reacted totally different than I actually did, once it hit me IRL.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

No one has the right to tell rape victim to get over it. Especially a man.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

illwill said:


> No one has the right to tell rape victim to get over it. Especially a man.


I agree with this except for the gender addition. Men can get raped just as much as a woman can (don't believe this, visit a prison and see what goes on in there), so this advice to et over it is no better coming from a woman than it is from a man.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Your condemnation is all the accolades I need.
> 
> But Middleman, your post reminds me of an experience I had. I was tasked to sit on a Grand Jury, where we the victims...I mean jurors, hear testimony from other victims, police and lawyers to decide if someone should have to face trial (for our international readers: In America, first a group of people needs to decide if someone should even FACE trial...and another group decides if they are guilty.)
> 
> ...


You must be a WS. That's the only explanation I can come up with for your viewpoint, your analogies and your complete lack of understanding of what a BS goes through.

Your analogy was utterly insulting and more than a little misguided.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Hundreds of people 'get their own back' by stealing. Hundreds of people 'get even' by beating other people.
> 
> Just because 'hundreds of people' do it doesn't make it correct, justified or moral.
> 
> ...


Wow. Just WOW! I'll bite my tongue. It ain't worth getting banned over. Is there an ignore feature on this site?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> The reason we have a court of laws is so someone ACTUALLY objective can say 'Enough! You have done as much as your are justified." The problem with infidelity, is that it is very much 'he said/she said'. The BS may feel that they were God's Gift to Matrimony, but obviously someone else voted quite differently. Who are we supposed to believe? It is beyond human judgment.


No, the reason we have a court of Law is not to impose humanity, morality, or judge someone right or wrong. That is what the police and penal system is for, to protect and serve the community and uphold the laws and hopefully rehabilitate those in the wrong. Our court and judicial system is not in place to say, you've done enough. If this is what you believe then you are misguided. Our court and judicial system is there solely to decide whether an action has been broken or violated a law and impose damages or punishments for that violation. Morality and a sense of right or wrong is not supposed to be involved in this decision, just whether the evidence supports the charges being upheld. It is through the punishments and damages handed down as sentences that we " to enact a change within the violator and curtail future violations from occurring, but it is not to impose morality or judgments on the guilty. Once you have paid your debt for the violation, you are free to pursue that action again in the future, knowing that when you are caught again the punishments and damages are going to be more severe if found guilty a second or more time.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> You are talking about how the WS OWES it to you to be your emotional punching bag as often as you get a feeling of anger, hate or frustration.


No that's not what I'm saying at all. In case of "D" the WS doesn't OWE being the BS's emotional punching bag .... but they should just expect a certain amount of it as a consequence of their actions. They can retaliate .... and most do, because this infidelity stuff is nasty sh1t. Too many BS's wind up being the punching bags; I think you are trying to defend the indefensible. 

Now in the case of "R" I think that the *WS does owe* the BS a good amount of time to be their emotional punching bag ... and they should do it with a smile on because *it doesn't even come close* to the amount of pain that they caused. Now if they don't like it, they don't have to "R", they can leave and be with their AP. But the truly remorseful WS's already know this and are willing to take their penance.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> You can quibble about how unfair my analogies are. Traumatic is traumatic. True. But a girl who spills ink on her prom dress 10 minutes before her date arrives is also 'traumatized'. Get a grip. Judgment DOES allow you to pick and choose between that and infidelity and rape on the spectrum of awfulness. I am not a relativist.
> 
> But the meta point remain which is undeniable, hence the incredible swiftness to discredit the message by resorting to false analogies.
> 
> ...


I didn't know badgers are blind.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Healer said:


> Is anyone else sick to death of hearing this from their WS? Really??? I thought you could get in your time machine and make it all right.  Sometimes I trigger and unleash on her (we are divorcing). I ask why, tell her she's cruel and selfish. "Beating me down won't help anything. Don't you think I'm hurting too? I can't change the past".


My WW gave me the same declaration on DDay. She was in such a fog that taking responsibility for the pain she caused was absolutely out of the question. BSs get medieval (ie. vengeance) when their pain is not empathized. Healing during R requires that I be allowed to transfer some small measure of the pain she caused while she actively validates ("Hold Me Tight", repair attachment injury). I need no other contrition, this is painful beyond belief, for both of us.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Most WS have the innate ability to compartmentalize and shut things down and move on, whereas most BS don't.


Maybe they should take a lesson then.



> Having never been cheated on (by your own admission), you have no idea the hurt and the betrayal that the WS has dealt to the BS and for how long and how hard it is for the BS to recover. No one really does as each individual is different in situation and how they deal with things. You feel that they should just move on in whatever time frame you see fit, even though they might have been getting that plate of feces for years. *I feel that the BS has the right to feed that same plate to the WS for as long as they see fit *(the WS did the same thing and most just write it off as the collateral damage of the situation. Not me!). * I think also that as long as the WS is in legal connection with the BS then they have to take it come what may.* Doesn't matter if the D is final. Are they still receiving alimony, child support, are children involved? Then the BS can serve it up as they see fit, as believe me (seen it in lots of people) the WS can and lots of times still use every opportuninty to put the BS down and make them the scapegoat in everything. * I could serve my WS this for the rest of my life and never do a portion of the damage to her that she has done to me*.


"My pain is special. Any pain she feels is deserved and she has absolutely NO right to respond to my slinging feces at her constantly." Got it!

Sometimes the WS is proactively attacking their BS. Other times they are RESPONDING.

So...in the next 40 years, since you might have a child together, you reserve the right to sling feces at your WS just because you have a connection? Okay. Enjoy the next 40 years.




> If you never have experienced it, you will never understand it (and I don't expect you to), just realize that not everyone operates under your time frame and design. Would you just tell a PTSD soldier of Vietnam to just move on. I mean the war is over, so just move one right??? I will not tell you your way is wrong, as if it works for you then so be it. So please don't tell me what is best for me or others and just accept that you are not the master of all. * Is it vindictive?* Your admission. That is what you are defending: being vindictive. Sure, but doesn't make your way right,* better probably, but not right.*Huh. No right and wrong really exist here, as long as law aren't broken. If the WS doesn't like it then tell them to move on and away and stop interacting with the BS or stop talking about. thinking about, or referring to them. Have them just move on as well.


The WS is also attached by the same connections that you lament. They might not have the option of 'moving away'.

This is the point that really sticks in my craw: a host of BS who feel that THEIR pain is special...really special. That NO ONE can feel a bad as they do. That they are forever marked and scarred and damn it! there is NO WAY to get over it.

But then you read about people who DO get over it. Some of them get over it pretty darned quickly! Does that make them 'better'? Maybe. Maybe not. In *some* cases, I'd venture a guess that some BS aren't actually trying at all, particularly people who extol the specialness of betrayal pain. I'll take an alte dame and a Rookie04's reaction over...well...let's not name names, shall we? Each of them got hurt. They seem to be in a pretty good place. What did THEY do that you (generic) aren't doing?

Do I have a timeline where a person MUST get over things? No. But there is that first step and holding to the premise that one is OWED feces slinging as long as you have to breathe the same air as the WS isn't a first step!

But you gentlemen DO have a timeline. It takes 2-5 years to get over adultery? Okay. Let's use that as a metric then. If year 5 comes along and you still find yourself just as angry, sad, and bitter, you've never seen a counselor at all and you refuse to try to date, well...I got to tell you, I feel as sorry for such a person as I do for a person who sits on the couch all day eating Ho-Ho's complaining about how hard it is to lose weight: not credible.

Instead of wrapping yourself in this 'special insurmountable' pain, how about asking the people who GOT OVER IT how they did it? Look at ing! He's moving forward.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Healer said:


> I didn't know badgers are blind.


We can be short sighted. We are not alone in this flaw...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> No that's not what I'm saying at all. In case of "D" the WS doesn't OWE being the BS's emotional punching bag .... but they should just expect a certain amount of it as a consequence of their actions. They can retaliate .... and most do, because this infidelity stuff is nasty sh1t. Too many BS's wind up being the punching bags; I think you are trying to defend the indefensible.
> 
> Now in the case of "R" I think that the *WS does owe* the BS a good amount of time to be their emotional punching bag ... and they should do it with a smile on because *it doesn't even come close* to the amount of pain that they caused. Now if they don't like it, they don't have to "R", they can leave and be with their AP. But the truly remorseful WS's already know this and are willing to take their penance.


First, I am not defending the 'right' of a WS to continue to abuse the BS. If a WS RESPONDS to some pounding...well...that is being human. As stated, she can't fix what she did. It is impossible. So demanding that is unreasonable. And taking pot shots just because?

In an R, I absolutely agree with you. As the BS, you will occasionally lose your temper and VENT. Be angry! Shout things which aren't nice or fair. I get that. I sympathize with that. AND...the WS OWES it to the BS to try to be patient and ride it out.

What I would add is the corollary: that the BS owes it to try to moderate his emotional excesses as much as humanly possible. They are trying to HEAL, not inflict new and interesting wounds on each others psyche.

So we aren't that far apart on this point.

One last quibble: how do you know that you haven't inflicted anything like the same amount of emotional damage? How do you measure that? If she had a ONS and you scream at her for the next five years, you REALLY aren't inflicting more injury than she did?

This is a quibble, but it's important. YOU DON'T KNOW! Stop saying this as if it's an immutable fact.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I was thinking about the phrase "I can't change the past."

I think the right response is something like...

"That's a shame, because if you could then you could go back and stop yourself from choosing to be the filthy example of moral trash that you've chosen to be."


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

" I can't change the past" - well, can you? Or anyone? 
It's true, get over it. Past cant be changed. But you can learn from it and try to become a better person. The only thing the WS can do is show true remorse, NC the AP and be patient with the hurt BS and their OCCASSIONAL trey of sheet. 
And even that, only in case of R. If you're divorcing, the WS doesnt owe you to be your punching bag forever. To have such claim is just as self-centered and selfish like the choice of cheating. Surprise, you're not the center of the world. The planet won't stop rotating and the world won't freeze because you're in pain. You did the right choice by getting rid of the cheater. Now your recovery is on you. Not the WS not anyone can heal you, but you.
Take it from someone who had more than the fair shair of betrayal in relationships and yes, has fully and happily healed. 
Buttom line...no one owes you nothing. Sure, would be nice if they had been better people in the first place. Would feel great if they bent over and took your sheet forever...but no one owes you that. We are only the center of the world to OURSELVES.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> One last quibble: how do you know that you haven't inflicted anything like the same amount of emotional damage? How do you measure that? If she had a ONS and you scream at her for the next five years, you REALLY aren't inflicting more injury than she did?
> 
> This is a quibble, but it's important. YOU DON'T KNOW! Stop saying this as if it's an immutable fact.


From the documented evidence in books such as surviving the affair, not just friends, and others as well as the testimony on here by several people whom have been on both sides of this situation as the BS and the WS that have testified that there is no pain like that felt from the betrayal of their spouse. Those that have felt the pain as both the betrayed and being the wayward have said the pain levels are not even remotely comparable. We have heard the same declarations from those that have lost children and other family members and experienced other tragedies as well. This is how we can claim these facts. You accepted my 2-5 year claim for recovery because that is the accepted summation found through different studies. The same about pain has been stated in those same books about the pain inflicted levels. 

Just as their exists many different examples of people that have moved on easily, there are examples of people that never move on. Does that make one group better than the other or the example to live by? Just because the betrayal may be similar the financial situations, family involved, and various other examples make each situation its own. Heck just the fact that states vary in their laws is enough to warrant the differences. Some can file and be done in 6 weeks and other can take years before they are even able to file. People don't take these into account. I have seen several on here get belittled with statements like "I don't know why you haven't filed yet? Man up and serve her or him today!", even though the poster states that they can't even file or start proceedings until they have been separated for a year and the discovery is only a few days old. Even though the cheater script seems to be the same no cookie cutter mold exists for a solution to the issue with a clear cut time frame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

JCD, I like the thoughts and effort you put into your posts, they even put a lot of perspective to things once in a while. It just gets more and more obvious to me that you haven't yourself experienced the pain of betrayal from your life partner.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

JCD said:


> And how are you feeling as a result?


Well..


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I was thinking about the phrase "I can't change the past."
> 
> I think the right response is something like...
> 
> "That's a shame, because if you could then you could go back and stop yourself from choosing to be the filthy example of moral trash that you've chosen to be."


It is one thing to explode at one's WS on dday. By one week after dday name calling phase needs to be left behind.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Just as their exists many different examples of people that have moved on easily, there are examples of people that never move on. Does that make one group better than the other or the example to live by? Just because the betrayal may be similar the financial situations, family involved, and various other examples make each situation its own. Heck just the fact that states vary in their laws is enough to warrant the differences. Some can file and be done in 6 weeks and other can take years before they are even able to file. People don't take these into account. I have seen several on here get belittled with statements like "I don't know why you haven't filed yet? Man up and serve her or him today!", even though the poster states that they can't even file or start proceedings until they have been separated for a year and the discovery is only a few days old. Even though the cheater script seems to be the same no cookie cutter mold exists for a solution to the issue with a clear cut time frame.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes the cookie cutter exists. Divorce or recover.

And even when recovery is selected. Not all are successful recovering their marriage. So whether 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years working at recovery for some WS and the BS they fail to recover and the marriage still ends in divorce.

This is life there are no guarantees.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

cpacan said:


> JCD, I like the thoughts and effort you put into your posts, they even put a lot of perspective to things once in a while. It just gets more and more obvious to me that you haven't yourself experienced the pain of betrayal from your life partner.


This is true.

Someone hunting down their rapist...someone finding the death camp commandant...someone looking for the murderer of their child...I can understand that. 

Deciding that you have the right to emotionally abuse your spouse without time limit, particularly AFTER a divorce? Huh! We've had one who thinks he can literally serve a plate of feces to her without limit and it's her DUTY to accept this. Another says that as long as there is any connection, he's entitled to make her life as miserable as he wants to and can accomplish. Middleman backed up a little bit, to his credit.

Are you on board with that attitude?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

JCD said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but that is a very cynical view, which is based upon the concept that cheaters are just 'damaged goods'. They were never honest, can't be honest, can't have emotions like love, and that they are just (and frequently always will be) *bad people.*
> 
> But looking back and trying to fit all of the prior history with the WS into this lens is just as much 'rewriting history' as anything the WS does to rationalize their crappy behavior.
> 
> ...


Agree. This is realism
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

theroad said:


> there comes a time when the BH has to stop calling his WW a hoe, and other endearing names such as that one.


Where did you ever get an idea like that?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> Someone hunting down their rapist...someone finding the death camp commandant...someone looking for the murderer of their child...I can understand that.
> 
> Are you on board with that attitude?


Having never have gone through this pain how can you say that the quoted situations are any worse or more justified than the pain and damage inflicted by a WS. In all of your quoted instances the physchological side of someone is destroyed, just as the same physchological destructions occur in an affair. It is sad that people only believe that damage occurs if violence is involved. 

It is not an attitude but a thought process or belief. Just because you don't understand or agree with it doesn't make it any less valid to the people that think this way. Who are you to judge having never been there. It is amazing the damage caused and the changes in thought processes that take place after experiencing things. I never thought war was as bad as it is until I served in the military and then the perceptions change. I never thought I would stay with a WS, but now that I am faced with it I am rethinking things. I hope you never have to experience these pains, but if you do I hope that it doesn't change you in anyway (although I can't imagine how it wouldn't).

Do you think that if someone killed your wife it would hurt more than if an AP robbed you of her affections and love? Just because the person lives on doesn't mean the love is still there or even the same if present at all, or the person is even still the same. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: "I can't change the past"*



JCD said:


> This is true.
> 
> Someone hunting down their rapist...someone finding the death camp commandant...someone looking for the murderer of their child...I can understand that.
> 
> ...


I'm quite sure that I haven't said or even hinted at that. I try the best I can to understand both sides of infidelity and act accordingly.

What I meant with my comment was that you seem to minimize the pain after betrayal, as if being cheated on and facing severe betrayal isn't that big a deal. Get over it-ish.
I understand that, you wouldn't know how it feels, I just find your attitude toward those who experienced it slightly patronizing.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Maybe they should take a lesson then.


You can't be serious.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Healer said:


> Is anyone else sick to death of hearing this from their WS? Really??? I thought you could get in your time machine and make it all right.  Sometimes I trigger and unleash on her (we are divorcing). I ask why, tell her she's cruel and selfish. "Beating me down won't help anything. Don't you think I'm hurting too? I can't change the past".
> 
> No, but sometimes you have to eat some sh*t for being an awful person.


My exW would say it.

My response became "And I can't forget it."


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

When my husband trots out this particular gem, I know very well that "I can't change the past" is simply cheater-speak for "I'm don't like that there are consequences for my past". It's a whine, nothing more - first about anything being required of him during our false R, and more recently about me divorcing him. 

However, the last time he said it, my response was a very calm and controlled, "I understand that. But I need you to understand that that past you can't change has been filled with a huge number of things that were very painful for me. I don't want to keep living that past and I no longer have any faith that you can live any other way. I _can_ change my future - which I am in the process of doing." He was gobsmacked.

I'm still under no illusions that he gets it. But at least he's stopped whining about not being able to change the past.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Hortensia said:


> Buttom line...no one owes you nothing.


By that logic I didn't owe my stbxww my faithfulness. Damn, and I could have been out there banging anything that moved. If only I knew!

Yours and JCD's "just get over it" attitude don't fly here, son. Go sell it somewhere else. Does the AM website have a discussion board?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Ahhhh, making sense now. JCD cheated on his spouse. He's projecting what he would LIKE to be the case - to ease his own guilt I wonder?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

theroad said:


> It is one thing to explode at one's WS on dday. By one week after dday name calling phase needs to be left behind.


Uhhhh, OK.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

My experience in betrayal of trust lies in having come from an abusive marriage... I was married 11 years, and abused physically, verbally, and emotionally. My Ex threatened to kill me (via VM, which was turned over to the police) and he choked me into unconsciousness more times than I can remember. I would go to work (at a bank) with finger tip bruises on my neck. I miscarried a child as a result of this. He always thought I was cheating on him because I grew very distant, when in actuality I just never got over what he had put me through. I couldn't forgive him, because there was no guarantee that it would happen again. Once I came to terms with that, and once my child has passed most of the big milestones, I abruptly walked out. I had given him the chance to get make changes that I felt were necessary (like counseling) and he refused. I had him legally removed from the home. 

There are days that I get sucked back into the abyss of sadness. I remember laying on the floor of my empty home crying, being in such a bad place that I wished God would just take me. But that past is part of me. It took so much emotional energy to hang on to the anger that I had for the years of torture I endured... Once I left him, I was able to let it go. For me, the anger and hurt took more of a toll on me than just letting it all go and moving forward. That is all I know how to do. I've been cheated on (LT BF), physically and sexually abused, etc., and I allow myself to grieve, and move on. We all process grief in our own ways, some perhaps better than others. 

I heard "I can't change the past" a number of times as well... and for me the only way I learned to make my future better, was to leave the past where it belongs, and look forward. Until you can do that it seems like you would be left in purgatory. 

I'm not saying don't be hurt, angry, etc. I can only imagine what it would feel like to have my spouse cheat... What I am saying, is that to let go, you have to open yourself up again. Which I think is what would make R so difficult... you are opening yourself back up. Being vulnerable. Every time I took my Ex back and he shattered my trust again, it became more and more impossible for me to trust him. I've been through PTSD counseling, co-dependency counseling, domestic violence group counseling, and IC. I have all the tools in the world one could hope to have in order to recover. And I think that I have... mostly because I have learned that no one can change the past, so it is up to me to decide how I will allow my past to affect my future.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Role Play: 

BS: I am feeling really worthless right now. The lies, the deceit, the infidelity ... for over a year you looked me in the eye, many times each day.

WS: I cannot change what I did, I am truly sorry, but I cannot change the past.

BS: I know you are regretful, but I am not asking you to change the past. I am asking you to help me heal by sharing the pain that your actions caused. We tell children they must repair the relationships they damage ... I ask no less.

Look in my eyes as I show you how your betrayal feels. Refuse the almost undeniable urge to defend yourself and just feel this. I could fill this room with sorrow emptied from the place in my heart that is no longer whole.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Where did you ever get an idea like that?


Simple. If the BH wants to recover his marriage he can not be throwing the affair in his WW's face forever.

I am surprised at your question.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

theroad said:


> Simple. If the BH wants to recover his marriage he can not be throwing the affair in his WW's face forever.
> 
> I am surprised at your question.


You honestly are surprised that anyone would question your one week time frame????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

I think the two sides of this argument are having their messages miss the mark. I don't think the people who are saying "Move on" aren't saying for the BS to not have their grief, and struggles etc. They're saying that at some point, if you are going to R, you do need to move forward. It doesn't mean the BS is never going to have "flashbacks" and struggle in the future, simply that the BS needs to put themselves in recovery and repair mode.

The people who are saying that the BS has the right to be angry etc, aren't wrong either. The BS is going to struggle and be hurt and have a harder time moving forward at different stages of R than other times. They're going to vacillate from loving to hating their WS. 

The two groups in this discussion are arguing from two different standpoints and about two different issues. Feeling the right to be mad is correct. Moving past that feeling and doing what's correct to R is also needed.

I think the core issue here is the people saying the BS is justified in their anger are looking at the "I can't change the past" statement from the context of it coming from a rugsweeping "get over it" mentality. Where the people saying "at some point the BS needs to forgive and move forward" are looking at the "I can't change the past" statement as a fact and that it's important is PROPRER R (not rugsweeping) to recognize, rehashing the past doesn't serve any positive consequence.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Having never have gone through this pain how can you say that the quoted situations are any worse or more justified than the pain and damage inflicted by a WS. In all of your quoted instances the physchological side of someone is destroyed, just as the same physchological destructions occur in an affair. It is sad that people only believe that damage occurs if violence is involved.


No, in the case of violence, I can quantify the loss. A mother LOST HER SON, never to be recovered. If she is above a certain age, she will never get her son back. A person brutalized in a camp has had measurable injuries done and time stolen. A rapist has done something measurable (though I will admit at this point that the analogy starts to break down).

In infidelity...is the BS never going to have sex again? Is the BS never going to love again? Is the BS FOREVER going to look at every person of the opposite gender as cheating trash?

Probably not. For every bitter person who you can point out stating this is the case, I can also mention someone who DID move on to a fulfilling life WITH a relationship. Maybe they are a bit less misty eyed and they took their rose colored glasses off, but they state they are in relationships and are happy.

So measuring this 'loss' you speak of is much more difficult to define in infidelity than in a case of violence. Some people don't feel it as sharply as perhaps you do. So your calls to relativism actually hurts your case.



> It is not an attitude but a thought process or belief. Just because you don't understand or agree with it doesn't make it any less valid to the people that think this way. Who are you to judge having never been there. It is amazing the damage caused and the changes in thought processes that take place after experiencing things. I never thought war was as bad as it is until I served in the military and then the perceptions change. I never thought I would stay with a WS, but now that I am faced with it I am rethinking things. I hope you never have to experience these pains, but if you do I hope that it doesn't change you in anyway (although I can't imagine how it wouldn't).


This is a cop out.

It is a very slick attempt to delegitimized anyone who has a contrary opinion because 'they don't know my pain'.

This is a similar tactic as saying anyone who hasn't been a solider can't be a commander in chief, that anyone not a mother can't understand childcare or abortion or whatever. That if you aren't a woman, or black or whatever, IF YOU AREN'T THAT, YOUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER.

This is BS and that isn't betrayed spouse. As a culture, I am called upon to make as informed decisions as I can about many things which I have not personally experienced...and I DON'T have the sharp rage/pain/despair clouding my vision of how you feel things should be or, as you would say, I am uninformed to the realities you face. Six of one, half dozen of the other.




cpacan said:


> What I meant with my comment was that you seem to minimize the pain after betrayal, as if being cheated on and facing severe betrayal isn't that big a deal. Get over it-ish.
> I understand that, you wouldn't know how it feels, I just find your attitude toward those who experienced it slightly patronizing.


Allow me to clarify than. If someone is cheated on, I am sympathetic. Perhaps not as much as they would LIKE...but it's amazing how much the world doesn't conform to my wants and desires as well...(Still waiting for Jennifer Connelly to call wanting my love child...)

But I AM sympathetic. They were hurt and betrayed by someone who promised to have their back. If you read most of my posts to BS, they are sympathetic to their pain, but also encouraging (pushy) to get them on the path of healing instead of allowing them to wallow in despair. Certainly I would never tell someone in the first WEEK to stop the name calling. As stated, it takes some time to get one's feet. That doesn't mean they get an unlimited pass to lay on the couch...

After 2, 3, 4, 5 years, and they still haven't moved on? Well...at this point they are either lazy, don't WANT to change, or they are broken. Only one of the three really deserves any sympathy...so my sympathy to such a person is about a third of what it once was. How do I know what is holding them back? So they get SOME small measure of sympathy. This is also informed by the large number of people I've met here who HAVE GOTTEN OVER IT. It CAN be done! But...maybe not by everyone. Hence 'broken'.

Here is what I am NOT sympathetic to:



Healer said:


> No, but sometimes you have to eat some sh*t for being an awful person.





The Middleman said:


> Ah, no. He can serve her that plate of feces during the divorce, after the divorce and until he's put in his grave, if that's what he wants. If the WS chooses to be a pig, let them eat like one. If doing this makes him feel the least bit better, then go for it. I know I would. I do believe the WS deserves this kind of crap, lots and lots of it.
> 
> 
> It's only a return of the emotional abuse that the WS dished out during the affair.





illwill said:


> They absolutely do deserve it.


On these points, I am NOT sympathetic. But again, it's not my business. They want to stay at zero and be bitter forever? Fine.

I simply pointed out this is not the path of healing. They took umbrage to this idea. Because to heal, they have to START to 'get over it'.

People who do physical rehabilitation aren't exactly known for being overly sympathetic either...but they get people to walk and away from zero...if they patient tries.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Healer said:


> Ahhhh, making sense now. JCD cheated on his spouse. He's projecting what he would LIKE to be the case - to ease his own guilt I wonder?


I also eat puppies for breakfast and laugh at orphan children...if you were grasping at any other straws to delegitimize my thoughts on a healthy way to deal with the betrayal.

Emotionally disconnecting from your wayward spouse so you avoid these explosive emotion episodes...I believe that's called the 180 here. It means not cursing at her, not wanting to serve her sh*t and not caring about her anymore.

I believe a person or fifty has actually recommended that here...and most counselors, psychologists, and bartenders.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> No, in the case of violence, I can quantify the loss. A mother LOST HER SON, never to be recovered. If she is above a certain age, she will never get her son back. A person brutalized in a camp has had measurable injuries done and time stolen. A rapist has done something measurable (though I will admit at this point that the analogy starts to break down).
> 
> In infidelity...is the BS never going to have sex again? Is the BS never going to love again? Is the BS FOREVER going to look at every person of the opposite gender as cheating trash?
> 
> ...


I could sate the same thing about your arguments and how they are not fully rooted, except in your mind. The mother whom loses her son through murder, but never has a body to recover or has a killer brought to justice, can never really move on either (and no matter her age she will never get that son back, she may have another but never will THAT son come back or be replaced so I don't like that statement you added). The death camp commandant (which was the person cited in your original statement) is not generally the one causing or inflicting any of the pain, merely the one that ordered it to occur (heck most never even saw it perpetrated, but maybe only saw the after effects at best), so how is searching them out years later a viable option or any different than the hatred a BS has for the WS or AP, as they weren't directly associated with inflicting the pain on the BS, they were just enjoying your naivety, and sometimes hospitality. You could use the argument here that if it weren't that commandant to issue the order, it would have been someone else, so just move on. In the last example, unless the rapist physically harms the victim (and I mean with scars, broken bones, beatings, true physical violence that requires some hospitalization or rehabilitation), then how is the sex involved in that act any less physically damaging than the sex involved in an affair (in fact most rapes occur between people whom know each other so the physical act occurring during the rape is generally no more violent than during normal sex, it is the fear and power imparted that causes the situation such pain, the physical act generally is tamer and shorter in time in a rape than the same act in an affair)?? In this case I would say that the fear imparted was close to the same level of pain the betrayal imparts, but this would only be a guess on my part and those whom have experienced bot would only be the ones that could truthfully say this was correct or not.

There was no tactic involved in my viewpoint, and I was not implying that you have no "" because you are not a something, in this case a BS, just implying/ stating that you don't fully understand the pain that a BS endures and it is not right to judge based upon the little experience you have with this subject. You are free to have and state your opinion but when you judge others based on solely the information and beliefs you have on a subject (when you do not have the full information available to you) that is wrong. Stop reading more into my statements and twisting them to get support for your view point. Nothing BS or misleading about my statements or viewpoints. These are my viewpoints and what I feel now (it may change in the future but this is my reality now). I can say truthfully that I can't fully understand your viewpoints, as I have never cheated on/ betrayed someone that I professed undying love too, as you have done (a fact that you do admit freely to, but in these types of exchanges, conveniently leave out of the discussions for fear that either you won't be given justice in your arguments/ opinions or will become the brunt of an unrelated argument, both of which would not be fair to you or the other posters and are warranted concerns). However, that doesn't mean I have the right to judge you or the right not to have an opinion in such matters. Just as you hate the fact the BS constantly throws it in the face of the WS, we hate the fact that the WS has lied so much that we can never truly know when they are no longer lying, covering up, and throwing things in the face of the BS (as it works both ways in these situations). BS don't want to go through life hating the WS and being labeled bitter for never getting their WS to help in their healing, but some can't help it as this is the case (same as the mother that never catches the killer). This is the same as no WS wants to go through life labeled a cheater forever.

I agree you are asked to make informed decisions on something that you haven't experienced (as we all are at many times). If we don't have the full information available (or the life experience to draw upon) we make our decision based upon what we do know that has been presented to us. There is nothing wrong with that decision making process, but to judge someone and tell someone that has more information than you do, that they are wrong in their judgement because it doesn't fit your mold of the situation, isn't fair either. Just because you don't have the same emotions attached, doesn't make your decision a better choice and any less clouded or impartial than the person that has the emotion attached. There is a difference between judging and stating an opinion. When you say someone's opinion is BS then you are judging and not stating an opinion. When you attack/ challenge someone for their beliefs/ statements/ opinions that is judging (unless your rebuttal statements are ones that have been justified and proven false by factual evidence, in which case this is just correcting the statements to what the proven facts are).


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Squeakr,

First off, thank you for this discussion. You have at least kept it reasonably rational and haven't gone personal. I am trying to answer the questions to the best of my ability, however limited you feel it might be 

Second, Healer started with a statement: He keeps asking why and (possibly) throwing things in her face, making her feel like sh*t...and he feels she is wrong in saying she can't change the past (she can't), inferring that instead of actually stating a fact, that she's intent on telling him to get over it (both may be true) and that he is fully justified in constantly throwing this in her face despite the fact that they are divorcing.

I call moral BS on that last point...and I also cite well known principles in the books you espouse: that hating on one another isn't helping a damn thing, even if it makes him feel good. Distance yourself. Move on. 

And yes, this means 'get over it'. No time frame...but eventually, you got to get over it. He doesn't like hearing it from his spouse. He doesn't like hearing it from ME. He doesn't like hearing it from Hortensia, who is ALSO a Betrayed Spouse, who DOES know exactly what this level of betray l feels like and who HAS 'recovered'.

And while I am not fully informed, may I offer something to think about: who do you think is better emotionally situated to sentence a murderer as an example: a juror who 'doesn't know what it feels like' or the father of the victim?

Your information of the feelings is not always of benefit.

I would say that there are two people most likely to be able to help someone on that roller coaster ride. A dispassionate observer (se moi, for example) or even BETTER...a betrayed person who lived it AND RECOVERED.

We have a lot of them here, not counting Hortensia. Guess what they all say? Let it go, let her go, find a better life.

Which is essentially what I said. Perhaps they dress it up and stroke the ego a bit more...but the central message doesn't change.

So what did I say that was incorrect?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> And while I am not fully informed, may I offer something to think about: who do you think is better emotionally situated to sentence a murderer as an example: a juror who 'doesn't know what it feels like' or the father of the victim?
> 
> Your information of the feelings is not always of benefit.
> 
> ...


I would think that the person best suited for the jury would be the one that had not been effected by murder in any way. You like to offer yourself up as a dispassionate person in this case but the fact is you have felt one side of the pain and issue being a WS. This makes you a biased observer just as it does me. A more true analogy fitting of our discussion would be the person whom was the father or the victim or someone that had committed murder in the past. Both of these people would have had an understanding and therefor have biased opinions unlike the one member that you offered up originally as to just be unemotionally affected but no connection to the case. 

I also don't think that just being dispassionate makes you an objective and fair observer (just as the emotional connection doesn't make another better suited just maybe more in tine with the other affected by the same situation). You are a WS so you have an objective to just move on with it. I would hope that your intent is to also help your BS to heal as well but as been shown many times on here by WS, it is not necessarily he case (and I don't know your intent nor am I making implications either way). 

This is where I think (my opinion) that you are incorrect. What I see is you expressing and feeling that your lack of emotional connection makes you a more objective person regarding this issue, but I say that you also have emotions and biases from being a WS that color your opinions as well and disagree that the lack of emotional connection makes you a more suitable judge of the situation. Through the analogies relating to violence you are showing that you have little understanding of the pain and level felt by the BS, the BS that have healed are truly the only ones that can say they have known, felt, and understood this grief. I find that generally the WS is ready to just move on and let things go, as they have all the answers and it wasn't as hurtful of an experience for them or they end their marriage and go off unscathed by their actions as they had moved on before the A. The BS never has either of these luxuries, they are negatively affected either way. The WS state that they sometimes have a hard time going NC or ending the A. They talk about the losses they feel, think about this multiplied on a scale by about a 1000 (as has been the scale stated by those that have been both a BS and WS) and this is what the BS feels. Couple that with the fact the BS usually never gets the true story if any truth at all, this makes it hard for the BS to move on and heal, just like the mother of a murdered son. Having never been a BS, you will never truly understand this until affected by it. 

I do appreciate the discussion and am trying to see your viewpoints and understand them, as I believe you are mine and the other BS involved, but know that we are probably forever at an impasse as we both have preconceived notions and ideals that color our perceptions (this is evident with your comments such as "reasonably rational" which tells me I am being judged and you don't agree otherwise the reasonably portion wouldn't have been included).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> I would think that the person best suited for the jury would be the one that had not been effected by murder in any way. You like to offer yourself up as a dispassionate person in this case but the fact is you have felt one side of the pain and issue being a WS. This makes you a biased observer just as it does me. A more true analogy fitting of our discussion would be the person whom was the father or the victim or someone that had committed murder in the past. Both of these people would have had an understanding and therefor have biased opinions unlike the one member that you offered up originally as to just be unemotionally affected but no connection to the case.
> 
> I also don't think that just being dispassionate makes you an objective and fair observer (just as the emotional connection doesn't make another better suited just maybe more in tine with the other affected by the same situation). You are a WS so you have an objective to just move on with it. I would hope that your intent is to also help your BS to heal as well but as been shown many times on here by WS, it is not necessarily he case (and I don't know your intent nor am I making implications either way).
> 
> ...


First, it was an EA, not a PA. You don't know my story.

Next, while this is a great deal of discussion about how biased I am, though even you admit there is less emotional 'charge' in being a WS vs. being a BS, which likely makes your bias greater than mine. But you haven't touched upon the KEY issue.

What is wrong with my advice? 

THAT is the issue, not the messenger. Everyone seems to be pounding on that one point of my 'status'. And yet, on another thread, I've had 7 BS et al give me 7 thumbs up. I THINK my max is 13 likes on a comment, but it might be higher. Obviously other people can either discount my 'special status' or are able to separate the messenger from the message. And I've had a LOT of PMs from WS who stated that I have helped them quite a bit with my advice and how to 'get over' their issues. Even (GASP) from a BS or two who were able to reopen communication with a spouse because he never EVER thought about another person's perspective. So leave the personal thoughts about me out of it.

Tell me what is wrong with THE MESSAGE.

I am not asking if he is emotionally ready for the message. I am not asking if he WANTS to hear the message. I am not asking if he is mature enough to take this advice. Don't talk to me about the tone of the message. All of that is irrelevant.

You claim to have read TONS of books on infidelity. How is MY message different from theirs?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JCD said:


> First, it was an EA, not a PA. You don't know my story.
> 
> What is wrong with my advice?
> 
> You have claimed to have read TONS of books on infidelity. How is MY message different from theirs?


You are correct in that I don't know your story and thanks for the clarification. However for the record an EA is cheating and betrayal and just as bad as a PA is. I have never claimed which you have done, I have just said that you have cheated, which is what both are so I have stated only the truth and no clarification was needed on your part. I have also claimed to not understand your viewpoints the same as I have claimed you don't understand mine. 

As for where your advice is incorrect in my opinion (notice as I didn't say wrong, as I have pointed out many times before this is a matter of viewpoints and none is either right or wrong unless factually proven such, so stop trying to be "right" all the time and see these viewpoints for what they are, someone's opinions, of which I too have had both BS and WS agree with mine as well but doesn't make them better or more valid than yours), is that the books claim that the moving on and forgiveness can only happen after the WS comes clean about the affair and the BS has the ability to heal with that information and help and only then be able to move on from after the affair. They many times state that the BS WILL not be able to overcome and heal and grow without this help and information from the WS. You and several others here just advocate just forgive the WS and move on any way, whether the closure and information and help from the WS is there, which eventually the closure for the BS will hopefully happen, but all the books I have read say that it can't happen otherwise, no matter how hard the BS wants it, the wound will never fully heal without the closure from the WS. 

I will admit here since you have called the books I have read into play (and please stop being so condescending with everything towards me and others, you are no better than us and it really is getting old with the condesention, just as you didn't need to attack my rationality earlier with the denouncing of it being "reasonably", you also don't need to attack my readings by throwing in the word "claim" prior. Why would I need to come on here and make things up? Give people a little credit please.) , and have said so in other posts but this information comes from books mainly aimed at reconciliation after the affair. I have not specifically read anything regarding just divorcing and moving on and maybe your viewpoints are presented in those types of books I wouldn't know, nor would I ask that you back up your claims with something other than your beliefs as the way you have challenged mine. I get that you are brash and come across that way, but your posts always seem to be that your way is the only and best way and that your statements are always correct until proven otherwise. When someone shares a different viewpoint you always challenge for evidence from them to prove their opinions yet never provide any yourself. I could ask you to provide evidence to support your claims as you have said every counselor, bartender, and a third party (which I forget and can't see prior comments on a mobile device to compete this fully) have all stated it is what needs to be done. I know Hartley and Glass didn't in the books I read so I could claim your statement is wrong as well but I won't as it is your opinion and I'll leave it at that. 

Once again I will state that I hope you can see my viewpoints and opinions and not challenge me to prove how your statements are wrong and mine right since they don't seem to align with mine. There is no right or wrong here as we are dealing with morality issues at this point, which is nothing more than a system of values imposed by a society. So what is deemed morally right or wrong in one society is not the same in another. In the Amish society, what would happen for this would be shunning. They would be expelled from the society and have to live their life alone atolling for their actions forever more. They wouldn't be accepted within that society and church as they violated the society standards and morals. Most would think this is absurd and extreme, but it their views and how they accept things and choose to live their lives, and they justify it through the teachings of the same bible that other religions quote telling us to forgive man for his sins. This is a perfect example of viewpoints and interpretations and I hope it clarifies that being right isn't always what these exchanges are about but seeing different viewpoints and possibly learning and growing from these differences. That is what the OP is doing when he is receiving all of the various advice, taking it in and weighing the pluses and minuses and deciding what fits best for their particular situation. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

JCD, I think people have more of a problem with your tone than with the message. Your analogies are also puzzling.

You wrote:
"A person brutalized in a camp has had measurable injuries done and time stolen. A rapist has done something measurable (though I will admit at this point that the analogy starts to break down).

In infidelity...is the BS never going to have sex again? Is the BS never going to love again? Is the BS FOREVER going to look at every person of the opposite gender as cheating trash?"

Actually, maybe it will take years and years for those things to happen. Sex, love, and trust of other people. Just like it would for a rape victim. But no one has a legal right to sex, love or trust. They do have a legal right to not be raped or forcibly imprisoned. But we all know that betrayal is an emotional violation, and it could be argued it's a form of abuse. People who have been betrayed have injuries which can be measured. Shock, trauma, weight loss, sleep loss, nightmares, depression, anger, anxiety, etc. All of those can be subjectively measured and they do create physiological changes as well. And affect a person's ability to function in daily life. Job loss because they can't concentrate, financial loss if they divorce, loss of self-esteem and confidence, separation from family and children, loss of social status, dependency on medications, etc. Many people fall into alcoholism or other addictions, commit homicide, attempt suicide, the list goes on and on. They have issues with future relationships, with trust and sexual performance. Comparing pains is difficult, but in terms of pain, infidelity ranks up there with rape, loss of a child, combat trauma and confinement in a prison. So it takes some balls for you to tell people to get over it. So what if you have respect for the woman who viewed her rape as something awful that happened and is moving on? Good for her. She's an exception and you may not really know what goes on in her mind. Who knows, she may have a breakdown a year later because she's suppressed the trauma. 

Letting go is not a single act, it's something people do a hundred times over in order for it to happen. Yes, if you are in R, your advice has merit. But not everyone is in R. Squeakr is looking for closure he will probably never get. Even if his X answered some of his questions, he will probably have more. But.. he is being denied respect by his WS and she could do a better job to ease his state of mind. Most cheaters lack emotional awareness.. awareness of themselves and a lack of empathy for the BS. He's probably pushing her farther away by hounding her, but he can't help it. There's a sense of justice he's missing out on, at least from his perspective. He's not ready for your message so why are you antagonizing him with it? Certainly there's a better message to give him?


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

JCD said:


> No, in the case of violence, I can quantify the loss. A mother LOST HER SON, never to be recovered. If she is above a certain age, she will never get her son back. A person brutalized in a camp has had measurable injuries done and time stolen. A rapist has done something measurable (though I will admit at this point that the analogy starts to break down).
> 
> In infidelity...is the BS never going to have sex again? Is the BS never going to love again? Is the BS FOREVER going to look at every person of the opposite gender as cheating trash?


JCD, I like and respect your posts and a lot of your posts on this topic have been right on, especially when you mention how the BS needs to do a 180 instead of feeding and living on hate. I would address this part though.

Every person responds to trauma and shock differently. Being betrayed by your spouse, and depending on the depth of the betrayal, can be just as traumatizing as rape. Should it be....no. Would it be for me....no. But I won't take it away from someone who is traumatized.

There are women, and men even, who are raped and never truly recover. There are men and women who lose a child who are never the same. The circumstances of those traumas also can play a part (in my area, a father was doing tree work and had his 6 year old son pulled into the wood chipper due to malfunction and stupidity, literally being pulled out of the father's hands...THAT'S TRAUMA...I would've walked into the woods and shot myself if I was that father. Versus your losing your child in a car accident lets say....not that one is "easier", but there's definitely more trauma).

My point is I won't put "limits" on how someone else responds to trauma, only help if I can and give space if needed. Because you can't quantify something doesn't mean it's less...it means you don't KNOW if it's less or not...hence not being able to quantify it. We really can't quantify trauma as a whole anyway. Each person responds to it differently and responds to different traumas differently.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> I also eat puppies for breakfast and laugh at orphan children...if you were grasping at any other straws to delegitimize my thoughts on a healthy way to deal with the betrayal.
> 
> Emotionally disconnecting from your wayward spouse so you avoid these explosive emotion episodes...I believe that's called the 180 here. It means not cursing at her, not wanting to serve her sh*t and not caring about her anymore.
> 
> I believe a person or fifty has actually recommended that here...and most counselors, psychologists, and bartenders.


Clearly your over the top arrogance is what allowed you to betray your wife in the first place.

You are in no place to offer anyone advice on "a healthy way to deal with the betrayal." 

Ban away, mods. I know it's taboo around these parts to handle WS's with anything but kid gloves.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Healer, this just part of JCD's personality and style of humor. Crap, man, he chose a badger as an avatar for a reason! It doesn't mean he should be banned, but I suggest not engaging him if it's too abrasive. 

By healthy, he means disengage from your WW. It's so very hard to do, especially if you are under the same roof and with kids. That's sort of the issue for BS's. Looks great on paper, nearly impossible to achieve IRL. 

I would say 180 is actually about doing the opposite of what you are doing before. The stuff that doesn't work and makes you feel worse. It doesn't necessarily mean turning your back on your wife or going cold, but certainly try not to go ballistic. I recommend drafting emails to her and NEVER sending them. Get it out in writing or through exercise or just banging a pillow against a wall. But, I know.. you want HER to know how much pain you are feeling. She won't, she can't .. at least not now.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

*loud noises!*


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

staystrong and Daddy&Hubby

I understand both of your points.

Essentially it breaks down to: this is very hard and painful for the BS.

And I understand that. For some, it takes a great deal of time.

For some, they NEVER get over it.

Here is my quibble. There are a LOT of people on this forum who did. It isn't an 'exception', it's the rule. Now...has this permanently damaged how they view relationships? Quite likely. BUT...they get into relationships. They find peace elsewhere. They move on with life.

But I will easily stipulate that many people DON'T get over it. It is sad but true. And I can only think of four scenarios which cover that circumstance.

One: they can't get over it. They've gotten the help, they've read the books, they've done the meds. They've tried everything and it hasn't worked.

I can't help them.

Two: They haven't tried to get over it. All I can do in this case it provide encouragement to actually TRY...by...oh...giving advice on an internet forum telling some guy that screaming 'WHY' at his soon to be divorced wife isn't helping matters. But maybe he's in the first camp.

Three: They don't WANT to get over it. There is a certain comfort to being a victim. It is an easy excuse. It rationalizes any number of negative social traits and excuses it. It makes things...easier. "I can't get a girl, I've been cheated on." Much easier than actually making yourself vulnerable again to someone. Perhaps it's a form of Münchausen syndrome.

Fourth: They are still getting over it. This is the most sympathetic case of all...but if they are forever getting over it...how does that differ from the first case?

Unfortunately, I don't have a crystal ball to know how much of each type of circumstance is in the soul of any particular BS.

I think after about five years, they've used up what sympathy they have coming to them. In that circumstance, the difference between unable and TOTALLY unwilling to change are indistinguishable. So you give them space and offer up a prayer, because continuing to...ahem...badger them (sorry) isn't going to have any results.

So...in all those cases, all I can do is stand there and point "THERE is the path! Right there! It will lead you to a better place. There are a number of tasks you will have to do to get there. Maybe you can't do them all, but every step you take will bring you to a better and better place then here, so even if you can't finish, it's worth the effort to walk as far as you can."

Unfortunately, I am wearing a blindfold when I do this. I can't see if the person has any legs or not.

And occasionally, the person you are trying to guide spits on you and wanders down the valley of bitterness. That is why I am happy badger fur is water repellent.

But the path is still there. They want something warm and cuddly to tell them instead? That's okay too. I hope they find a better messenger. Maybe someone like this guy.













Edited to add: I have no idea how 'fresh' this is for Healer. Since he is still in the midst of a divorce, it must have happened very recently. Frankly, you should have GOBS and GOBS of sympathy for the first *year*, so my tone is probably a bit out of place.

That being said: You will never know why. SHE might not know why. And even if she broke down a long list of things, reasons, and thoughts...I get the sense from other BSs that they never truly feel satisfied with the answers.

So I slightly disagree with Squeakr's books. You can't depend on anyone else, some mystic truth from someone else to recover. That seems to be a pipe dream.

Take your time. Be angry...but try to be less angry as time goes on. Sorry this happened to you. 

I'm just a crusty badger with an eye toward the well rounded hindquarter. There is the path. There are a lot of books with the road map. Maybe they can help you where I can't.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

JCD,

I think it's a good summary / breakdown.

I don't know which is the exception and which is the rule regarding the % of people who 'get over it'.

The older adults I know who have been cheated on years ago and moved on to other relationships still aren't over what happened to them. Most won't talk about what happened, or if they do, it is with sadness or anger. Hard to say whether they've 'moved on' except for that they are still living and they have a new partner. Is that the definition of moving on? Seems like true moving on involves much more than that. 

I think only a few don't want to get over it. If you offered them a magic pill which got them completely over their X and their woes, they'd take it. And I think there are many people who see their own faults in the marriage but still didn't cheat. So their woe is a mixed bag of regret, guilt, despair and the pain of being cheated on and left. So they don't necessarily feel the victim as much as others, they just feel lousy all around. 

Healer's not at the 5 year mark, is he?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> JCD,
> 
> I think it's a good summary / breakdown.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that.

I think that this second paragraph I highlighted is part of why some BS can't get over things so easily: they are introspective enough to see their own flaws and faults and have a hard time getting over their own portion of guilt. "If only I had..." whatever. 

And no, Healer is NOT anywhere near the 5 year mark. Which is why I tender apologies for the tone, but not the message.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Yesterday I took the kids for our Saturday lunch out. She texts asking if she can stop by to drop something off and say hi to the kids. I'm trying to go back to being soft again like I have been so I said sure, but we're out for lunch so I'll text when we're home. She asks if she can just stop in to the restaurant real quick to give them a hug. I say sure. Yeah I know - dumb. Sure enough she wants to stay for a beer. My 5 year old says "I remember these good times we had a s a family". She had to go to the bathroom in tears - 3 times. My son looked at me like a wounded animal, climbed under the table and sat next to me. I fought real hard to keep from crying. It was awful. I wanted her to leave but felt paralyzed and didn't know how to say it in front of the kids. It went from a lovely lunch to an emotional disaster. 

Then I get this text:

Is there somebody around the kids we need to talk about ****?

We have an agreement right? I haven't broken it. But if we have something to talk about you have to tell me. 

It's ok ****. I'm a big girl. Not much could affect me right now
But we will have to talk to the kids if there's going to be somebody around them. We agreed 

(Me): I haven't had the kids around anyone. I'm a man of my word, remember?


Your also a very hurt man, that won't talk to me. Just trying to keep the communication going. That will be hard for the kids and we will have to work thru it together. I can tell there is somebody in your heart... I'm no fool remember?

I feel it. As much as that kills me it makes me happy for you. 

I want you to be happy..

Ok, more no talking.... I tried calling. 

I need to talk to my kids...

I'm in a real bad place ****... I need those kids.

Real bad babe... But that's what I deserve right? 

Sometimes I think I shouldn't talk to (her shrink), brings out a lot I don't want to feel... It's to much ****.

___________________________

Once again - she's wrong, there is nobody right now. Real ****ing astute. When I disengage this is the **** she pulls.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> Yesterday I took the kids for our Saturday lunch out. She texts asking if she can stop by to drop something off and say hi to the kids. I'm trying to go back to being soft again like I have been so I said sure, but we're out for lunch so I'll text when we're home. She asks if she can just stop in to the restaurant real quick to give them a hug. I say sure. Yeah I know - dumb. Sure enough she wants to stay for a beer. My 5 year old says "I remember these good times we had a s a family". She had to go to the bathroom in tears - 3 times. My son looked at me like a wounded animal, climbed under the table and sat next to me. I fought real hard to keep from crying. It was awful. I wanted her to leave but felt paralyzed and didn't know how to say it in front of the kids. It went from a lovely lunch to an emotional disaster.
> 
> Then I get this text:
> 
> ...



Healer,

I haven't read your story, but I've read enough of your responses on this thread to know that you are a very hurt BS. Before I respond, let me make it very clear to you that I was the WS in my marriage. I'm one of the resident WS's on TAM who is known for showing compassion whether responding to BS's or WS's. 

After reading yesterday's exchange with your wife, I do not see a remorseful WS. I don't think anyone needs to convince you that what she pulled, in front of the children, was very manipulative and extremely passive aggressive. What's far worse than simply pulling this on you, is that she did it using the children as pawns in her scheme. I believe that many WS's who, upon seeing the actual destruction on their families that their infidelity has wrought, go into a near panic mode and will frantically begin scrambling to attempt to put it all back together. Some, for the right reasons, and some for their own selfish purposes, which is, of course, how they created this devastating situation to begin with. When doing so for all of the right reasons, which would be realizing and regretting what a horrific choice they made to lie, deceive and betray their family, and wishing nothing more than to show amends, help their family heal, in the aftermath and, perhaps, reconcile the marriage, a truly remorseful WS would not attempt to control the situation to their advantage, manipulating their children's already suffering psyches, by projecting the "bad guy" status onto the other parent, their BS. Sorry about that long run on sentence. I'm known for those, around here, as well.  

Your wife should never have asked to interrupt your lunch out with the kids. She should have been grateful that you were willing to allow her to "drop something off and say 'hi' to the kids" when you and children returned home. Instead, she pushed to come by the restaurant, giving her complete access to you and the kids in a public place where she, I'm assuming, knew that you would not make a scene. You gave in. Once there, she pushed further to stay for a beer. And, again, you relented. At this point, you really had no other choice, as a loving father, but to smile, be gracious, and go with the flow, as you and your very young, fragile, and already wounded children, are being held captive to her continued manipulations. Now, your innocent 5 year old begins feeding off of her performance and is reduced to tears. If Daddy doesn't continue to play along, nicely, then he would be the 'big bad wolf' who sent the poor 'victim,' Mommy, away. Again, I haven't read your story but, I'll assume, with a 5 y/o, that your children are young enough that they do not know the real reason that Mommy and Daddy aren't together anymore. By your own admission, your lovely lunch turned into an emotional disaster. So, lesson learned???

But, your wife's manipulations didn't stop there. No, she had only just begun. She had already managed to, very successfully, ruin your lunch with your children, make the focus of everything all about her, and garner sympathy for herself in the eyes of your children (on your time, and probably your dime, too, no less. You paid for her beer, right?) Bolstered by getting an emotional reaction from you, she decides to go in for the kill, which is what she wanted all along. And, I think she's really proud of herself for this little masterpiece. She texts you, again, taking up your precious (and, now, limited, thanks to her) time with the kids, with a bunch of nonsense about there being "someone in your heart." Then, she throws in all of the necessary verbiage about how, although it would kill her, she would be happy for you, she deserves this (see how, now, she's becoming the victim???) Blah, blah, blah... Then, she changes her tone to slightly indignant, more stern, because *'this is really about the kids,'* (no, it's all about her ) and she 'needs those kids.' The truth is, she knew that you hadn't had the children around someone else. Because she knows that you are a man of your word. She just wanted to find out if you were seeing someone else and she didn't care that it ruined your time with kids and upset them in the process. She just wanted to get her answer.

I just read in another thread of yours that you and she are getting a divorce and that you have no desire to reconcile. If this is the case, then you really will need to completely detach, for your sake and for the well-being of your children. She is, obviously, still able to get under your skin, even if only because of the kids. These kinds of episodes will be very damaging for them. You need to do a hard 180. Not for her sake.... for yours. Do not allow her to interject herself into your time with the kids, no surprise visits or unnecessary texts and phone calls, unless it is an absolute emergency or an agreed upon necessity. Otherwise, do not answer her calls and texts. If there is a true emergency she can leave a message. Don't tell her what your plans with them are, that way she can't just show up. You "need" the kids (as they do you) just as much as she does and you didn't create this situation.

In response to your original comment, I will say this: It doesn't appear that your wife has "come out of the fog, yet." No amount of unleashing on her, calling her names, or hoping that she will graciously eat the $hit that you want to sling at her for "being an awful person" is going to have the effect on her that you need it to have. You need her to feel your pain. She doesn't. Not right now. Not yet. Maybe never. Slinging $hit at her will only cause her to become more defensive, feel more like the victim, and likely, in her mind, encourage her to believe that she was justified in her actions, because you are *"such an evil bully." * Her current behavior indicates that this is how she will spin it with the kids, too. 

If you truly want to divorce, then detach, move on, heal and be happy. No small task, I know. But, your children deserve, at least, one example of what a loving, healthy parent is supposed to be like. Right now, you are the only one. Don't let them down. One day, your future ex-wife may truly realize the depth of her betrayal of you and your children. If that time ever comes, you won't need to sling $hit at her. She will sling more $hit on herself than ANY you could possibly imagine. I promise. If that time never comes, then arguing back and forth with her will only hurt the kids more. Detach and move on.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

EI said:


> Healer,
> 
> I haven't read your story, but I've read enough of your responses on this thread to know that you are a very hurt BS. Before I respond, let me make it very clear to you that I was the WS in my marriage. I'm one of the resident WS's on TAM who is known for showing compassion whether responding to BS's or WS's.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for that EI. You nailed it, and I know you're are 100% right. And yes, lessoned learned.

It's surreal to think I've been married to this person for 13 years. Clearly she does still get under my skin - and uses the kids to do it. It will be a constant challenge not to let that happen.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> You honestly are surprised that anyone would question your one week time frame????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is a difference in the time needed stopping the angry out bursts at a WS and the time needed to move past the affair.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

theroad said:


> There is a difference in the time needed stopping the angry out bursts at a WS and the time needed to move past the affair.


And a week is not the answer to either one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> And a week is not the answer to either one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never said a week was needed to move past an affair.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

EI is correct you don't need to engage her for anything other than legal, financial or child care issues. You have a schedule, each party needs to stick to that schedule. This gives the children stability as they know what to expect and allow you to not be drawn into her behavior. She wants to be buddies so that she can ease her conscience and justify her behavior. However, she is no longer your friend, buddy or pal. She is the mother of your children and should be treated with respect for that reason, but you don't need to be buddies. 

Separation and time will change your attitude toward her to where you really won't care what she does or says, but that takes time. You are currently going through the grieving process, just as if someone you loved died. In this case it is the marriage that died. There is no time table and your situation is really not out of the norm for what you have gone through. Hang in there cowboy.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

If she is truly as manipulative as described, I would not give her any off handed comments about 'oh...we are at Chucky Cheese" now.

I would say instead "we are eating", "we are at a park", "we are going out". Because welcome or not, she might show up anyway just to mess with you or, as she will rationalize it, try to positively engage with you. 

It is almost never a positive experience. That is the 180. Only talk about divorce or kids and the kids only to set up schedules.

Edited to add: there is an onus on cheaters too. The cheater should be attempting to try to keep as much drama out of things as possible. In my R, my wife occasionally lashes out...and I accept this (she is really good about the self control). It's her right.

BUT, I don't try to rock the boat unnecessarily...and neither does she. It's basic human decency.

This doesn't seem to be the case here. But I don't know the back story.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> If she is truly as manipulative as described, I would not give her any off handed comments about 'oh...we are at Chucky Cheese" now.
> 
> I would say instead "we are eating", "we are at a park", "we are going out". Because welcome or not, she might show up anyway just to mess with you or, as she will rationalize it, try to positively engage with you.
> 
> ...


That has never happened before, and will never happen again.

Back story is she cheated on me for months on end with a convicted criminal, put us $50K in debt by pretending to work but actually getting cash advances on our CC to buy coke for her and loverboy, things fizzled with her thug and she left me because the guilt was "eating her alive". We agreed to R, I gave it a shot for 10 weeks and realized I'd rather die alone than be married to her for another second, so I ended R and started the D process. That's it, in a nutshell.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Funny thing, this weekend W said she wishes she could change the past. I said "So do I."

But what's done is done, and all we can do anything about is the future, and live in the now. 

Sounds like I accept the past? No, I hurt form the past. But the past will be your teacher if you learn from it; your master if you live in it.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I have a lot of amazing things happening in my life right now. I wrote a song for work that they made a music video of - starring me, that will premiere Oct 1 in front of 4000 people, then be online (company website, Youtube). It's the biggest musical break I've ever had - and it has the potential to launch my career into a whole new realm. I'm performing live again and getting lots of good gigs as well as writing/producing opportunities.

She is continuing her downward spiral - bankruptcy, physical problems that have appeared that affect her ability to do her job (which is a **** job to begin with), loss of friends, no prospects, no future. I'm moving up in the world - because I work my ass off and I have ethics, talent and respect for people. This was one of the things that drove her to cheat - she resented my success in life, instead of sharing it with me, as a spouse should. I worked hard for US, not me.

Now she feels sorry for herself, is all "woe is me", and resents my success again and wants to pull me down with her. Ain't gonna happen. She's such a pessimist, a fatalist, someone who expects the good life handed to her. She has no concept that you make your own success, your own luck. Through hard work, ethics, kindness, building and developing your skills and talents...that is lost on her. She just "gets screwed over". 

Being away from her is possibly the best thing that ever happened to me - besides my kids. Oh the irony in that!


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> I have a lot of amazing things happening in my life right now. I wrote a song for work that they made a music video of - starring me, that will premiere Oct 1 in front of 4000 people, then be online (company website, Youtube). It's the biggest musical break I've ever had - and it has the potential to launch my career into a whole new realm. I'm performing live again and getting lots of good gigs as well as writing/producing opportunities.
> 
> She is continuing her downward spiral - bankruptcy, physical problems that have appeared that affect her ability to do her job (which is a **** job to begin with), loss of friends, no prospects, no future. I'm moving up in the world - because I work my ass off and I have ethics, talent and respect for people. This was one of the things that drove her to cheat - she resented my success in life, instead of sharing it with me, as a spouse should. I worked hard for US, not me.
> 
> ...



You're on your way! :smthumbup: Congrats! I think that in a few months you may even find yourself considering changing your username to "Healed." When I first began posting on TAM, over 15 months ago, "EI" was originally registered as "Empty Inside." But, not anymore. You're doing the right stuff. You'll have setbacks. Your wife will continue to try to bring you down. Let your children be your inspiration or simply be your own inspiration. It's all up to you. 

I wish you and your children the very best.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

EI said:


> You're on your way! :smthumbup: Congrats! I think that in a few months you may even find yourself considering changing your username to "Healed." When I first began posting on TAM, over 15 months ago, "EI" was originally registered as "Empty Inside." But, not anymore. You're doing the right stuff. You'll have setbacks. Your wife will continue to try to bring you down. Let your children be your inspiration or simply be your own inspiration. It's all up to you.
> 
> I wish you and your children the very best.


Thanks kindly, EI.


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