# When your wife acts like a child



## joshbjoshb

So after speaking to a very wise man recently, he told me - why do you take so much to heart? You have to look at your wife like a little child. Stop getting upset from what she is saying. You have to be bigger. Love her anyways because she is doing so much for you and because she carried your children - you would never be able to do that yourself!

(You can read my previous posts to understand my story better).

I spent a lot of time thinking about it, then decided to google it. I came across this amazing article:

Hostile Dependency: Is your Wife, Girlfriend or Ex a Child Masquerading in the Body of a Woman? | Shrink4Men

It was kind of an eye opening for me. It makes so much sense to me now. I know my mother in law very well. She never knows how to take care of her emotional needs, how much more so of her children. I always heard her using many rejecting words "go away from me", type of talk, not knowing how to nurture. So my wife was never able to really mature on an emotional level. 

I really try to implement this in my marriage. I don't want to end it, for my kids but also because I am a believer that you have to be there for your wife even if she is mentally sick, and even if she will never heal.

It's tough! Very much so. One of my biggest problem is that I cannot be attracted to her when she display those childish behavior. But I will get over it I think.


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## sarcasmo

I've always thought I was married to a teenager. I never knew how to articulate it though. I'm not sure she uses the actual words, "I want, I want", but her criticisms come across that way.

Scary quote:


> If you’re dealing with a woman whose hostile dependency is part of a personality disorder or personality disorder traits, I don’t know if it’s possible to successfully navigate this developmental task in adulthood. *In fact, it may be impossible.*


I believe this is why my therapist says run, not walk away from my marriage. He truly believes that personality traits are unfixable.

The strange thing for me is she always portrayed me externally as the perfect husband. Maybe this was just an insecurity? Not sure. Do others find women like this try to keep things looking normal and happy externally? Even when behind closed doors their marriage is a mess?


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## joshbjoshb

sarcasmo said:


> The strange thing for me is she always portrayed me externally as the perfect husband. Maybe this was just an insecurity? Not sure. Do others find women like this try to keep things looking normal and happy externally? Even when behind closed doors their marriage is a mess?


I think that in the end of the day she is (was?) petrified to loose you. If you are the only stability in her life, the only person who showed her love - she is so scared you are going to leave.


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## lifeistooshort

Was she always like this? If so, why did you marry her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joshbjoshb

lifeistooshort said:


> Was she always like this? If so, why did you marry her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course it came out only after our marriage! Those type of things do not show, unless you know how to look for them.


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## bailingout

Very interesting article.

Now just change the word "wife" to "husband" and the issues are the same.

I wonder if they will ever grow up. :scratchhead:


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## KathyBatesel

I think the article is sort of misleading. Everybody, at any age, still has that "inner child" with needs, joys, and pleasure that isn't restricted by adulthood. Some just show it more than others. 

It sounds to me like your wife may have a personality disorder. My first guess is BPD (borderline) because of something you said in your other post. She went from criticizing you and telling you you needed counseling to suddenly criticizing you for doing exactly what she said you needed. Those abandonment issues are prevalent in BPD. 

I wrote this article on BPD and relationships. If you're willing, take a look and see if it strikes a chord with you: 

http://jellygator.hubpages.com/hub/Borderline-Personality-Disorder-and-Relationships


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## bbdad

Very good article in the original post. That described my wife almost perfectly. Very scary! Demands everything, but reciprocates little to nothing. Wow!!!


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## Sanity

joshbjoshb said:


> Of course it came out only after our marriage! Those type of things do not show, unless you know how to look for them.


LOL no buddy sorry. Its because we think with the small head that we don't see it. We need to start trusting the big head when it comes to choosing a wife.


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## samyeagar

sarcasmo said:


> I've always thought I was married to a teenager. I never knew how to articulate it though. I'm not sure she uses the actual words, "I want, I want", but her criticisms come across that way.
> 
> Scary quote:
> 
> 
> I believe this is why my therapist says run, not walk away from my marriage. He truly believes that personality traits are unfixable.
> 
> The strange thing for me is *she always portrayed me externally as the perfect husband*. Maybe this was just an insecurity? Not sure. Do others find women like this try to keep things looking normal and happy externally? Even when behind closed doors their marriage is a mess?


Of course she does. She wants her friends and others to be jealous of her and her perfect husband. She does that for self gratification, not because she actually believes it.


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## joshbjoshb

bailingout said:


> Very interesting article.
> 
> Now just change the word "wife" to "husband" and the issues are the same.
> 
> I wonder if they will ever grow up. :scratchhead:


Yeah, of course. The only thing is that in modern society it's very normal that a wife looks at her husband as a little child, but when a wife is acting like a child and the husband doesn't know what to do, she calls him insensitive and "you don't care for me".


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## joshbjoshb

bbdad said:


> Very good article in the original post. That described my wife almost perfectly. Very scary! Demands everything, but reciprocates little to nothing. Wow!!!


Then good luck to you sir. I know how difficult this might be.


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## joshbjoshb

KathyBatesel said:


> I think the article is sort of misleading. Everybody, at any age, still has that "inner child" with needs, joys, and pleasure that isn't restricted by adulthood. Some just show it more than others.
> 
> It sounds to me like your wife may have a personality disorder. My first guess is BPD (borderline) because of something you said in your other post. She went from criticizing you and telling you you needed counseling to suddenly criticizing you for doing exactly what she said you needed. Those abandonment issues are prevalent in BPD.
> 
> I wrote this article on BPD and relationships. If you're willing, take a look and see if it strikes a chord with you:
> 
> Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships


You have a very good suggestion there, although one might call BPD some sort of childhood - not knowing how to deal with emotions.

I filled up that test you are linking to, trying to answer for my wife, and go 22, likely BPD (personally I got 7).

In either case there is not much I can do to help her unless she decided to help herself.


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## joshbjoshb

Oh - but what the link is doing - which you don't in your article - is giving a beautiful explanation how this child behavior happened, and how much it has to do with the way they were brought up, etc. which makes perfect sense in the case of my wife.


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## sarcasmo

KathyBatesel said:


> I wrote this article on BPD and relationships. If you're willing, take a look and see if it strikes a chord with you:
> 
> Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships


Good article. Thanks!

FYI, I took the test as my wife. She scored a 36. Maybe I was a bit unfair?


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## bailingout

joshbjoshb said:


> The only thing is that in modern society it's very normal that a wife looks at her husband as a little childQUOTE]
> 
> :scratchhead: Normal? I would have to disagree.


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## joshbjoshb

Okay, I mean it's more common. I will many times see women talking and saying something "my husband is" and give that look as if he is such a baby.

I never saw husbands talk like this.


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## KathyBatesel

My only hesitation about the original article is that I worry it can make people think, "Oh, it's just because of the way she was raised," like it's something that can change if they just "love her right." BPD and personality disorders can cause so much pain and literally ruin people's lives, so I'd rather see an accurate name pinned to the behavior so that their partner can make a better decision about what they're dealing with.


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## Enginerd

bailingout said:


> joshbjoshb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing is that in modern society it's very normal that a wife looks at her husband as a little childQUOTE]
> 
> :scratchhead: Normal? I would have to disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> Men are certainly portrayed that way in western media. I think some women like to portray their husbands as children to appear in control. Clearly this does not apply to all cultures.
Click to expand...


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## KathyBatesel

Enginerd said:


> bailingout said:
> 
> 
> 
> Men are certainly portrayed that way in western media. I think some women like to portray their husbands as children to appear in control. Clearly this does not apply to all cultures.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, both men and women are.
> 
> While the television is full of the inept men and ultra-in-charge women these days (which I hate to see!), you'll also find plenty of "catholic school girl" and lollipops to suggest that childhood is desirable in women. (Although this is done with a slightly different underlying message!)
Click to expand...


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## bailingout

KathyBatesel said:


> Unfortunately, both men and women are.
> 
> While the television is full of the inept men and ultra-in-charge women these days (which I hate to see!), you'll also find plenty of "catholic school girl" and lollipops to suggest that childhood is desirable in women. (Although this is done with a slightly different underlying message!)


:iagree:

and just to note: I did not say: _Men are certainly portrayed that way in western media. I think some women like to portray their husbands as children to appear in control. Clearly this does not apply to all cultures._ I have no idea how that got quoted under my name but joshbjoshb originally made that claim.


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## Enginerd

KathyBatesel said:


> Enginerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, both men and women are.
> 
> While the television is full of the inept men and ultra-in-charge women these days (which I hate to see!), you'll also find plenty of "catholic school girl" and lollipops to suggest that childhood is desirable in women. (Although this is done with a slightly different underlying message!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One is about pedifilia and the other an offshoot of the feminist movement. Not exactly equals....
> 
> (Yeah the whole quoting thing is messed up.)
Click to expand...


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## joshbjoshb

So last night I was at an event, and the wife told me - in front of her husband! - that she is "taking care of her 3 children" with a huge smile, referring to her husband of course.

It's not my first time hearing it, and I bet you NEVER going to see an husband saying it in front of his wife - he will be labeled as abusive


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## joshbjoshb

KathyBatesel said:


> My only hesitation about the original article is that I worry it can make people think, "Oh, it's just because of the way she was raised," like it's something that can change if they just "love her right." BPD and personality disorders can cause so much pain and literally ruin people's lives, so I'd rather see an accurate name pinned to the behavior so that their partner can make a better decision about what they're dealing with.


The only thing about the original article that it's very negative, almost pushing people to get divorced.

Your article on the other hand is presenting it as a disease: would a normal husband think to leave his wife just because she got sick, even if it's a very serious illness that has no cure and might last for a lifetime? I hope not.

It certainly not easy to be in such a marriage.


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## KathyBatesel

joshbjoshb said:


> The only thing about the original article that it's very negative, almost pushing people to get divorced.
> 
> Your article on the other hand is presenting it as a disease: would a normal husband think to leave his wife just because she got sick, even if it's a very serious illness that has no cure and might last for a lifetime? I hope not.
> 
> It certainly not easy to be in such a marriage.


I hope not either, but it's true that some illnesses make family members ill, too, especially when we're talking about a psychiatric illness that can leave lasting emotional wounds.


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## joshbjoshb

KathyBatesel said:


> I hope not either, but it's true that some illnesses make family members ill, too, especially when we're talking about a psychiatric illness that can leave lasting emotional wounds.


I hope that with good support, and self awareness, a person should be able to deal with it and come out even stronger!

You can't imagine how much of a difference it makes to me now that I don't have to take every comment of my wife to heart.

The only flaw is - I almost take nothing from her to my heart anymore. Not that I am cold, I hear, I can feel bad for her, but it doesn't affect me so much.

I hope it can stay this way until, maybe, one day she is cured and I can let her hurt me again


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## deejov

OP,
Have you ever read the Voice of Knowledge or Gifts of Imperfection?

Part of the whole self awareness thing..... there was a reason you were a good fit for your wife when you got married. You have most likely changed more than she has. You see her differently, you have grown, but she has stayed the same. 

The Four Agreements (another book) talks about this,
http://www.humanpotentialunlimited.com/Summary-content.html]

Not taking things personally is an awesome way to look at this.


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## joshbjoshb

KathyBatesel said:


> My only hesitation about the original article is that I worry it can make people think, "Oh, it's just because of the way she was raised," like it's something that can change if they just "love her right." BPD and personality disorders can cause so much pain and literally ruin people's lives, so I'd rather see an accurate name pinned to the behavior so that their partner can make a better decision about what they're dealing with.


Today it's one of the days that I need to hear that, as I am in pain.

I held pretty nicely for the last few weeks. Today was a $his test and I lost , she acted in such a crazy manner so I yelled back at her.

What I really need is someone I can call to whenever such a thing happens. Someone that will give me support. It can't be someone that I am paying him... a friend or something like that.

Problem is I don't want to bother them with all of it. The friends that live nearby are too close for comfort (them knowing what's going on will have huge impact on many things that I cann't afford right now), and the friends who live far are simply not people I am comfortable bothering so much...

Enjoy your weekend everyone!


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## Hindenburg

joshbjoshb said:


> So after speaking to a very wise man recently, he told me - why do you take so much to heart? You have to look at your wife like a little child. Stop getting upset from what she is saying. You have to be bigger. Love her anyways because she is doing so much for you and because she carried your children - you would never be able to do that yourself!
> 
> (You can read my previous posts to understand my story better).
> 
> I spent a lot of time thinking about it, then decided to google it. I came across this amazing article:
> 
> Hostile Dependency: Is your Wife, Girlfriend or Ex a Child Masquerading in the Body of a Woman? | Shrink4Men
> 
> It was kind of an eye opening for me. It makes so much sense to me now. I know my mother in law very well. She never knows how to take care of her emotional needs, how much more so of her children. I always heard her using many rejecting words "go away from me", type of talk, not knowing how to nurture. So my wife was never able to really mature on an emotional level.
> 
> I really try to implement this in my marriage. I don't want to end it, for my kids but also because I am a believer that you have to be there for your wife even if she is mentally sick, and even if she will never heal.
> 
> It's tough! Very much so. One of my biggest problem is that I cannot be attracted to her when she display those childish behavior. But I will get over it I think.


Holy lord. Just opened the article you mentioned and wondering why there is not a pic of my wife to accompany it. This is her exactly.....“I want, I want, I want. I need, I need, I need,” but damned if she knows what it is she wants and needs. She just know she wants and needs . . . something and your job is to figure it out and give it to her. Adult partners are expected to magically know and meet her needs and if they fail to deliver—look out!

Now I'll finish reading it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

joshbjoshb said:


> [Kathy's] article on the other hand is presenting it as a disease: would a normal husband think to leave his wife just because she got sick, even if it's a very serious illness that has no cure and might last for a lifetime?


Josh, Kathy's article -- which provides an excellent overview of BPD -- never uses the term "disease" because BPD is not considered to be a disease. Unlike a disease like chickenpox, BPD is not something you "have" or "don't have." Rather, it is a set of behavioral traits that everyone has to some degree. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is called a "spectrum disorder."

At low levels, these nine traits generally are beneficial and essential to our survival. They become a problem only they become so strong and persistant that they distort your perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations -- and undermine your ability to control your own emotions. 

Significantly, a person having very strong BPD traits typically experienced a childhood trauma (perhaps together with genetics) that froze her emotional development at the level of a 3 or 4 year old. This means that she can learn how to grow up emotionally by undertaking years of intensive therapy. This also means that, if your W has strong BPD traits, you have a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife relationship.

I mention all this to explain why leaving a BPDer is NOT the same as walking away from a sick, diseased wife. Rather, you would be walking away from an emotionally stunted woman who refuses to learn how to grow up and control her own emotions. This is why I made the decision to divorce my BPDer exW. If you would like to read more about this, I suggest you follow the link I provided you last October in my post (in one of your other threads) at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59190-just-had-talk-my-wife.html#post1171334.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

joshbjoshb said:


> So after speaking to a very wise man recently, he told me - why do you take so much to heart? You have to look at your wife like a little child. Stop getting upset from what she is saying. You have to be bigger. Love her anyways because she is doing so much for you and because she carried your children - you would never be able to do that yourself!
> 
> (You can read my previous posts to understand my story better).
> 
> I spent a lot of time thinking about it, then decided to google it. I came across this amazing article:
> 
> Hostile Dependency: Is your Wife, Girlfriend or Ex a Child Masquerading in the Body of a Woman? | Shrink4Men
> 
> It was kind of an eye opening for me. It makes so much sense to me now. I know my mother in law very well. She never knows how to take care of her emotional needs, how much more so of her children. I always heard her using many rejecting words "go away from me", type of talk, not knowing how to nurture. So my wife was never able to really mature on an emotional level.
> 
> I really try to implement this in my marriage. I don't want to end it, for my kids but also because I am a believer that you have to be there for your wife even if she is mentally sick, and even if she will never heal.
> 
> It's tough! Very much so. One of my biggest problem is that I cannot be attracted to her when she display those childish behavior. But I will get over it I think.


Just for the record, some men act this way as well.

My ex h being one of them.


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## joshbjoshb

Uptown said:


> Josh, Kathy's article -- which provides an excellent overview of BPD -- never uses the term "disease" because BPD is not considered to be a disease. Unlike a disease like chickenpox, BPD is not something you "have" or "don't have." Rather, it is a set of behavioral traits that everyone has to some degree. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is called a "spectrum disorder."
> 
> At low levels, these nine traits generally are beneficial and essential to our survival. They become a problem only they become so strong and persistant that they distort your perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations -- and undermine your ability to control your own emotions.
> 
> Significantly, a person having very strong BPD traits typically experienced a childhood trauma (perhaps together with genetics) that froze her emotional development at the level of a 3 or 4 year old. This means that she can learn how to grow up emotionally by undertaking years of intensive therapy. This also means that, if your W has strong BPD traits, you have a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife relationship.
> 
> I mention all this to explain why leaving a BPDer is NOT the same as walking away from a sick, diseased wife. Rather, you would be walking away from an emotionally stunted woman who refuses to learn how to grow up and control her own emotions. This is why I made the decision to divorce my BPDer exW. If you would like to read more about this, I suggest you follow the link I provided you last October in my post (in one of your other threads) at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59190-just-had-talk-my-wife.html#post1171334.


Uptown: I have to admit that I didn't pay enough attention to your posts. I am going through different phases, but currently I feel like it's becoming clear to me that indeed my wife has BPD, so now I went back and read it again.

So what happened to you in the end? Your wife just left you? In my case, I don't think she is ever going to (for many many reasons). I do fully understand you wanting to get divorced, but truly hope I can stay married and minimize the effect of her disorder - even just for the children.

I am fully aware that I cannot change her. I do hope that I can get some sort of formula that will make me immune to the symptoms of her disorder.


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## joshbjoshb

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Just for the record, some men act this way as well.
> 
> My ex h being one of them.


I have no doubt about it. Sorry if it sounded like it's only men.

I do think that when it's the wife that has it, it's much harder for the husband to recognize it. It's almost embarrassing for him to admit that in essence his wife is controlling his emotions. And I do believe that the first step to recovery is to let the BPD spouse have as little as possible influence on you.


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## Uptown

joshbjoshb said:


> Uptown: So what happened to you in the end? Your wife just left you?


Yes, Josh, she left me. By "left me," I mean she threw another tantrum, chased me from room to room, and called the police -- having me thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her (because I had pushed her away from the door she was trying to destroy to get to me).


> In my case, I don't think she is ever going to [leave me].


Given her great fear of being alone, you would not think so. It is difficult to even imagine that a wife, who is so fearful of being abandoned, will ever be capable of walking away. Certainly, that outcome was inconceivable to me. But, in BPDer marriages, that is what typically happens about 12-15 years into the marriage. In my case, it took 15 years.

What happens is that, as the years go by, the BPDer becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. At the same time, she becomes increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy or fix her. On top of that, you eventually will start establishing stronger personal boundaries and enforcing them. Even though you will have no intention of leaving her -- certainly, I did not -- she will misinterpret your stronger boundaries as a clear sign you are planning to leave and will be very frightened by them. It therefore is typical of caregivers like you and me to try to hang onto the BPDer forever -- and for the BPDers to walk on out us. Their abandonment fear becomes so strong and painful that they will preemptively abandon us to stop the pain. All of your assurances to the contrary, as you already know, will simply not be believed.

Yet, by the time that happens, you will have had 15 years to accumulate savings and own a house -- and you may even still have dependent children. The BPDer therefore can best position herself in the upcoming financial battle by having you arrested. In that way, she will be safely ensconced in your home by securing (while you are in jail) a R/O that prevents you from going anywhere near your own home for the 18 months or so it takes to complete the D. When you are in jail, R/Os are handed out like candy to the "victims" for the asking. And she can use it to beat you over the head if there is a custody battle.


> I am fully aware that I cannot change her. I do hope that I can get some sort of formula that will make me immune to the symptoms of her disorder.


If you discover such a formula, you will be a very wealthy man, indeed. Until then, your best hope is that your W's BPD traits are only at a moderate level. If that is the case, the "validation" techniques discussed in BPD books like _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ will help a little. If her traits are strong, however, all the validation in the world is not going to make a dent in her behavior. That, at least, was my experience, Josh.


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## joshbjoshb

Thank you uptown. I guess I really need to buy the book.

Did your ex work? What was her family like?


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## Uptown

joshbjoshb said:


> Did your ex work?


Yes, she was a secretary. As you know, many BPDers have a childlike quality -- a purity of expression -- that makes them instantly likeable by even complete strangers. My exW has a wonderful warmth like that.


> What was her family like?


Her psychopathic father sexually molested her and her two sisters for years. As far as I can tell, all three of them have very strong BPD traits. They all will turn on a dime with their feelings. They will go for six months not speaking to each other and then, for another six months, will be best of friends -- then back to not speaking.


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## janefw

joshbjoshb said:


> So last night I was at an event, and the wife told me - in front of her husband! - that she is "taking care of her 3 children" with a huge smile, referring to her husband of course.
> 
> It's not my first time hearing it, and I bet you NEVER going to see an husband saying it in front of his wife - he will be labeled as abusive


Actually you would be surprised how many people subscribe to this belief. My husband's parents will refer to me having "four boys" (three sons and my husband). That's his _parents _for goodness sake. My husband also considers himself to be "one of the boys." That's the exact opposite of what I want. I want a husband who is mature, and is a man, not a fourth child. 

My husband, it needs to be said, also sometimes plays into it - although I refuse to take part, and refusing to take part is very important btw. He will ask me if he can buy something or do something, and I will refer him to our monthly budget and tell him to make that call for himself. I don't see it meanly, just firmly. I refuse to be his mom.


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## baldrom

Some of the stories hear are eerily familiar. My thirty year old wife has the behavioural pattern of a difficult teenager in pretty much every sense. 

She shirks every kind of responsibility and treats every request to take others into account as an assault on her personal freedom. It can be asking her to run a minor errand, letting me know around what time she may be home, ... 
She will also have these obsessions or projects that she always seems to need my help with, but not my interference. She'll ask me to the store to get this or that and when I do not do it or don't do it straight away, she'll sulk. When finished with whatever she wanted to do, she'll also never clean up after herself. 
She'll ask my advice and then treat it as if I am trying to make her look stupid or dependant. Or she'll say she wants a man to have his things together, but when I am openly being responsible -because someone has to be-, she'll call me boring or compare me to her parents. 
She never ever keeps track of where she puts her stuff and when she needs to get ready at the last minute, she will start freaking out because she can't find something. Which is, apparently, always my fault. Because once every so often I get sick of her stuff lying around for weeks that I put it away somewhere and ever a while forget where it is.
She has a low self-esteem and is constantly worrying about her appearance. 
She's sexually promiscuous.
She chats and texts a lot. 

I fell for her because she was exciting and quirky and made me feel alive. But living together her words and actions soon started feeding my depression, which in turn exacerbated her behaviour. 
What is worse that most of the time she makes me feel like everything is my fault, because I'm no fun, I act like and grandpa or a woman or what not. 

There is a background story to my relationship, but that would take too long and isn't relevant to the subject of the thread. Safe to say, I have my faults as a person and a partner. But putting up with her **** has drained the life out of me.


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## mace17

KathyBatesel said:


> It sounds to me like your wife may have a personality disorder. My first guess is BPD (borderline) because of something you said in your other post. She went from criticizing you and telling you you needed counseling to suddenly criticizing you for doing exactly what she said you needed. Those abandonment issues are prevalent in BPD.


This really strikes home, because my H just recently did almost the same thing to me. He told me I had issues and should go to counseling, then when I told him I had been for a few months he said it was making our relationship worse so I shouldn't go.


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## Uptown

Baldrom and Mace, if you would like to read more about BPD traits to see if most sound very familiar, I suggest you look at my list of typical BPD red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs ring a bell, you will find a more detailed description of them in my post in Maybe's Thread -- as well as in Kathy's excellent blog on BPD mentioned above.


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## ifeelit

I feel you..


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