# Another look at opposite sex friends in marriage.



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

One of the the many hot potato issues here on TAM and in real life marriages is the issue of opposite sex friends.

In fact, there are numerous threads in the CWI section and I'm sure in a few other sections too, of marriages and relationships in trouble or one partner having trouble, because of opposite sex friends.
There seem to be two opposing schools of thought. Those for and those against.
What I found lacking , is a middle ground, that middle ground being self governance, or as Shakespeare put it in the play 
" Hamlet ";

_".."To thine own self be true, and it shall follow the night, the day that thou canst not then be false to any man..."_

I think if people are really honest with themselves, this could be a non issue. 
Some people put themselves into situations where they are weak & vulnerable, and refuse advice or help when offered. They must " _burn to learn_."

Some people don't really know, how they would react in such situations, so they become involved in EA's or PA's, rewrite their history, blame their partner and from there , its a downward spiral.

Some people know themselves, have very good personal boundaries, have good relationships with their spouses, so they manage these type of friendships well.

I think that behind these type of friendships is a need for external validation , and I don't see anything wrong with that. After all we are all social beings. The_ "scotoma"_ or blind spot IMO is overconfidence ,self aggrandizement on one end ,and at the opposite end , insecurity and low self worth.

To be honest, we all go through these feelings at different phases in our lives , and we are all different people.
I'm of the view that married people should;

1] Choose their friends carefully.OSF should respect YOUR personal / marital boundaries.
2] Do not have OSF that the other partner does not approve of.
3] Make themselves & their partners their primary source of validation / praise.
4] Not willingly put themselves into compromising positions with OSF.
5] Never talk about marital problems with an OSF.
6] Not be friends with people they want to have sex with.
7] Trust each other's judgement on OSF situations.

I notice there's a book always recommended here by some posters , namely " _Not just friends_ " I have never read it, but I have researched the author and her work, and I was impressed.
Much of what she said is common sense.
The problem is that we let " political correctness" supercede common sense.
IMO ,that type of politics has absolutely no place in a marriage.

What are your thoughts?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Very good post! Point 7 is very important because often the people involved don't see the full picture like an observer. The last thread you were on is an example where the wife didn't see the guy was slowly escalating contact and hitting on her. Point 7 can really only work when the spouses respect each other and are ready to demonstrate support for the marriage even if the situation is innocent. It's more important to give leeway to your spouses opinion in these situations.

I would add another point monitoring time spent with OSFs. When contact is escalating it is often a sign that they are getting closer which is fine to a point but can get out of control. 

8. Don't let time spent with OSFs escalate to the point that time spent with other friends is small by comparison. The quality time spent bonding with a spouse should be much greater than any time spent with an OSF.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> 1] Choose their friends carefully.OSF should respect YOUR personal / marital boundaries.
> 2] Do not have OSF that the other partner does not approve of.
> 3] Make themselves & their partners their primary source of validation / praise.
> 4] Not willingly put themselves into compromising positions with OSF.
> ...


Even though my Father ended up marrying my Mother's Best friend when I was 9 yrs old... For some reason... this was never a concern for our marriage....my parents were never close... we always were - from the time we met.. we were like "glue"....did everything together....it's something that's never changed throughout the years...we just added children to the mix. 

When we met...any guy friends I had immediately became *HIS friends*, and any Girl friends he had immediately became *MY friends*....even had one of his female friends in our wedding...& she used to like him (though he was never interested in her)....I recall her warning me to never hurt him. Ha ha

Can't say we've ever had a problem in all our yrs together, with one of us crossing a line ......neither of us are uptight if one sees someone out & about, stops & talks... anything like that, this would be a spontaneous thing. 

We always fill each other in...and it's enjoyable to hear all about it....this has built much *trust* in us over all of these yrs. 

Neither of us would purposely go out with an opposite sex friend without the other... the only time I can think of is ...me taking our guy friend to a Rock concert - we had some teens with us, he loved the group more so...and my husband was content staying home to watch the baby.

I've never read "Just friends" either...but everything you said in your opening Post CM... I couldn't agree more so!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Outstanding post. There are (at least) four folks to consider in these situations. I may believe I am strong as a rock and impervious to all temptation, but vulnerability to affairs is circumstance-dependent. Might not be a problem today but what about next year when the wife and I are having problems? Then, there's the OSF. If she gets the wrong idea, things get weird. If the wife develops suspicions and fears, things get weird at home. The last person to consider is any third person who might be watching from afar and getting the wrong idea. Your reputation is like your virginity. It's pristine when you get it but once it's gone, it's gone. Perception and rumors can screw you up at work as easily as an affair.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've never read "Just friends" either...but everything you said in your opening Post CM... I couldn't agree more so!


I haven't read it either.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Unless it was said and I missed it, transparency is key. Every once in a while I go to coffee with a married gal at work. Public place and we talk shop usually. I always tell wifey about it. If she ever expressed concerns, I'd never do so again out of respect for her.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> When we met...any guy friends I had immediately became *HIS friends*, and any Girl friends he had immediately became *MY friends*....even had one of his female friends in our wedding...& she used to like him (though he was never interested in her)....I recall her warning me to never hurt him. Ha ha


Yes, our spouses friends should become our friends. It is important to have your spouse meet an OSF so that they can see the situation and be friends as well. There should be no OSFs the spouse hasn't met. If I meet someone new and they are friend worthy, I make a point of doing something with them with my wife. I am always eager to have her meet my friends, male or female.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Good post, CM!

I have three opposite sex friends with whom I was friends with before I met SO. I had never dated any of them, and 2 of them have come to stay with me since I've been with my SO. I've always been completely open with SO about these friends (sharing emails and messages), and when they came to stay they became his friends, too. SO and I don't live together (yet), but I was careful to have him stay over during their visits.

I think it's possible to have opposite sex friends, providing there are firm boundaries in place and one's spouse / SO is part of the equation.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Most of my friends after high school were OS (female). After marriage I went through a long period where I had no real friends, because I didn't enjoy having guy friends as much as female friends, but it was no longer appropriate to hang out with girls alone. 

In the end it turned out that I had issues, even though I didn't realise it. Once those issues were dealt with I found that I really enjoyed having guy friends quite a lot. Dealing with those issues also helped me to be a better husband. 

So, I think that an inability to have close same-sex friends and a constant yearning for OS friends is unhealthy.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> *I may believe I am strong as a rock and impervious to all temptation, but vulnerability to affairs is circumstance-dependent. Might not be a problem today but what about next year when the wife and I are having problems?* Then, there's the OSF. If she gets the wrong idea, things get weird. If the wife develops suspicions and fears, things get weird at home. The last person to consider is any third person who might be watching from afar and getting the wrong idea. *Your reputation is like your virginity. It's pristine when you get it but once it's gone, it's gone. Perception and rumors can screw you up at work as easily as an affair.*


:iagree:
Thanks everyone for your input.

The parts I highlighted in your post is exactly what I was thinking when I put myself into the equations.

Most of our customers in our business are female, so I obviously have OSF " friends." I have no problem with them and they have no problem with crossing any borders. We respect each other.
But that is so far up to today. 
I cannot see the future, so this is just a hypothesis.
So if things get sticky between my wife and I next year, and she begins to get suspicious of one of my OSF friends, what am I supposed to do?
Should I dismiss her feelings as insecure because of our other marital problem ? My perception may be that they are not connected.
But I am in a marriage comprising my wife and I so in reality, her feelings should count for something.
IMO, the solution is, take her feelings into consideration, put the OSF on ice and until we deal with our problems and are in a stronger place.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> I would add another point monitoring time spent with OSFs. When contact is escalating it is often a sign that they are getting closer which is fine to a point but can get out of control.
> 
> 8. *Don't let time spent with OSFs escalate to the point that time spent with other friends is small by comparison. The quality time spent bonding with a spouse should be much greater than any time spent with an OSF.*


:iagree:
I like your point.
I think it ties in with the concept of " self governance " well.
I think that if a spouse starts complaining about time spent with 
OSF's vis-à-vis actual "quality time" spent with them [ spouse] then it may very well be time to either cut back on time spent with that friend and assess the relationship.

These things can sometimes creep up on us. In essence, even though we are all adults and know our limits, the facts are that quite a lot of affairs start off as casual friendships then escalate.
Having a spouse with a " veto power" who knows and understands your inner working can help in such a situation.

But this is just an opinion. The dynamics in each relationship differ in many varying degrees. It would be nice to hear from some more people exactly how they handle opposite sex friendships in their relationship , even those that are problematic.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> I've always been completely open with SO about these friends (sharing emails and messages)....





Cosmos said:


> I think it's possible to have opposite sex friends, providing there are firm boundaries in place and one's spouse / SO is part of the equation.


Well, there you go. Acknowledging the potential pitfalls and safeguarding against them (by setting boundaries, involving your SO) is the rational, mature approach. To me, that is just using built-in safety features. As we see, sometimes this does not happen - which says less about the the friendships and more about the people who cross the line.

The ironic thing is that I bet most of the folks who walk blindly into these situations and then wonder how they ended up in affair territory would never drive without a seat belt or rock-climb without a safety harness.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Convection said:


> Well, there you go. Acknowledging the potential pitfalls and safeguarding against them (by setting boundaries, involving your SO) is the rational, mature approach. To me, that is just using built-in safety features. As we see, sometimes this does not happen - which says less about the the friendships and more about the people who cross the line.
> 
> The ironic thing is that I bet most of the folks who walk blindly into these situations and then wonder how they ended up in affair territory would never drive without a seat belt or rock-climb without a safety harness.


:iagree:
That's why in the last paragraph of my original post , I said most of these things are just common sense.

So like you said and like I said [ lol, like both of us said] the issue cannot be OSF . And if OSF's is not the issue, then it must be that something has to be wrong those who fall deeply into affair territory, mainly physical affairs. Not saying that they are broken or anything.
Either their thinking at that point was not correct., or they were genuinely lost.
Either way , a marriage is a union of two equals. If one is expected to shoulder part of the blame when the other has an affair, then I think its only reasonable and logical that he or she be given a veto power over OSF, before an affair can happen.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

One of my close friends is a guy I have known for years before I met hubz. We have a shared taste in music and for years went to see bands together before I had children.

I don't see him so much now, but we do text and he sometimes comes out with me and my elder two children on a weekday evening.

Hubz is fine with this.

Hubz's best friend's wife is best friends with my friend's wife. She is great.

Sometimes hubz and his best friend will text between themselves that I am out with my "boyfriend." It's done in jest but I will admit it bothers me a little, though I'm not sure why.

My friend is respectful and gentlemanly and has never crossed the line ever. We have talked about relationship issues, he was a support to me when me and hubz had troubles and in my previous relationship where I ended up a single parent. I think he has looked out for me to a degree.

Our friendship group is very marriage friendly which I think helps. Looking back I know there has been a respectful "barrier" there, I can even remember years ago my friend coming along many times with me and my then-boyfriend to see bands and it was never a problem then either. In fact none of my boyfriends have ever had a problem with him.

I am hyper-aware of boundaries though due to hubz's EA.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> I like your point.
> I think it ties in with the concept of " self governance " well.
> I think that if a spouse starts complaining about time spent with
> ...


I like to think of it as my wife has my back. She's looking out for us just as I am looking out for her and us. When you don't listen to your spouse you are speaking like an addict does. I can handle it, we're just friends is really just the denial of an addict looking for another hit. 

You are right the dynamics of the relationship is important because some can see they are addicted to disaster and some can't without it going to far. I've seen a few come to TAM knowing they have an issue and are trying to deal with it. Then there are some that just never seethe issue and can't handle OSFs. So there are some that just should avoid opposite sex friends altogether. The same boundaries don't work for everyone.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Convection said:


> Well, there you go. Acknowledging the potential pitfalls and safeguarding against them (by setting boundaries, involving your SO) is the rational, mature approach. To me, that is just using built-in safety features. As we see, sometimes this does not happen - which says less about the the friendships and more about the people who cross the line.
> 
> The ironic thing is that I bet most of the folks who walk blindly into these situations and then wonder how they ended up in affair territory would never drive without a seat belt or rock-climb without a safety harness.


The dangers of free solo climbing are obvious and now adays so is driving without a seat belt. But for many people the danger in a cup of coffee everyday with a friend is not obvious at all. I didn't see it until I got into trouble. It's very clear to those of us that have seen the bad side but it's all innocent for many. These are the people that don't realize they are crossing the lines until its too late.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> What are your thoughts?


I don't drink, and that is 100% effective in eliminating any problems with alcohol. 

Same with women friends. It's a program that can't fail. Bullet proof. 

And I can't think of anything I'd be missing in life by not having women friends. In your case, your work and social activities are going to make that very different. A very different risk-reward calculus for you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I am always interested in an OSF thread, but I prefer that they be written from the point of view of how to manage when your partner has or is at risk of having inappropriate relationships.

I am better these days at identifying the slippery slope. For example:

1. Any woman who asks my partner lots of questions about me, whether of a personal nature or not.
2. who refuses to call on the house phone
3. who issues invitations directly and only to my partner
4. rescinds said invitation when only my partner can not attend
5. regularly wants to meet up with "us" but never has her own date for the evening.
6. tells me that her friendship with my husband has nothing to do with me 

and so on.....

Any other suggestions as to how to identify a third party who only sees your partner and not a couple that includes you?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I am always interested in an OSF thread, but I prefer that they be written from the point of view of how to manage when your partner has or is at risk of having inappropriate relationships.
> 
> I am better these days at identifying the slippery slope. For example:
> 
> ...


Good post, and great points.
Would I be correct in assuming that you speak from experience?

Yes. There are other suggestions in identifying third party threats to your relationship.

*7]* Any person who repeatedly gives your spouse expensive , personal gifts for special occasions like birthdays , Christmas etc. can be deemed as a threat to your relationship. That person is actively competing against you for your spouse's attention.

*8]* Always observe the obvious body language of a person you are suspicious of. People who consistently cross your partner's external physical space in front of you , can be a threat.
People who;
a] Give " lingering" full embraces.
b] Inapropiate touches like hands on legs , chest , face , a$$ ,hair for ANY period of time should be told gently,to desist. Once is a mistake, twice is a habit, three times is an indication of intent, and should be considered a declaration of war.

*9]* Be weary of the _" Damsel in distress "_ who is always in need of _your _husband's attention and help. She always has a problem that only_ your_ husband can solve. In reality , she want's to have sex with your man. That is the only problem_ your_ husband can solve for her.
The other " problems" are peripheral non issues designed to get him within her trap, and could be solved by any other man.

Maybe another person could add to the list if they agree or say why they disagree


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks, Caribbean Man.

Definitely speaking from experience. My failed marriage was plagued with my exH getting cosy with the wives of his friends on his social circle. they were dismissive of me.

I also had problems with the women I tried to develop as friends. they befriended me to get to my husband. So a woman who is constantly asking about my husband is now a red flag as well.

As far as gifts, they don't have to be expensive. The fact that it's thoughtful and constant is enough to suggest a problem.

If my husband always remembered to pick up a seashell to give to a woman, that would be a problem.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Neither I nor my H have any real OSF. I do consider his 4 close friends to be my friend too because we have spent so much time at my house watching sports the 5 of them and me. None of their wife like sports at all. So that's as close as I have to OSF. It's a few guys at work that I talk to often but it is no interactions outside of work and it mostly trash talk about sports. 

My H don't have OSF because he is a reformed playa. I guess he is a chic magnet too because I have watch women Flirt with him right in front of my face standing there with him. I guess he must give off some kind of vibe even though he just seem to be acting his normal self to me. Use to bother me at first but now I see that he can't even be polite to some women without them acting silly. So the OSF dynamic does not fit into our marriage by mutual agreement.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

committed4ever said:


> Neither I nor my H have any real OSF. I do consider his 4 close friends to be my friend too because we have spent so much time at my house watching sports the 5 of them and me. None of their wife like sports at all. So that's as close as I have to OSF. It's a few guys at work that I talk to often but it is no interactions outside of work and it mostly trash talk about sports.
> 
> My H don't have OSF because he is a reformed playa. I guess he is a chic magnet too because I have watch women Flirt with him right in front of my face standing there with him. I guess he must give off some kind of vibe even though he just seem to be acting his normal self to me. Use to bother me at first but now I see that he can't even be polite to some women without them acting silly. *So the OSF dynamic does not fit into our marriage by mutual agreement*.



so I guess you don't have anything to contribute to this thread.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> so I guess you don't have anything to contribute to this thread.


I think that comment is unfair. The OP ask what are our thoughts on OSF'S. I contributed that it doesn't work for us and I said why. It seems like you chose to Purposefully lash out at me for some reason. Why?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

OSFs are serious problems in marriages and other exclusive long term relationships.

One minute you think that you're being fair and open minded when your husband hangs out with one or two friends....

and then soon you realize that your husband is prioritizing the needs of others before you.... AND these so called female friends are one upping you and behaving dismissively all while your husband claims to not notice.....

Someone coming onto this thread saying, oh well, we don't have this problem......

that's nice that he is a reformed "playa" as you call him and that he does the right things despite so many women continuing to vie for his attention

it might be in other situations that the errant partner does not get much attention at all but has still decided to take on one inappropriate relationship.......

and for someone who is trying to evaluate whether they have a problem in their marriage regarding third party relationships, well how have you helped anyone here .......


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> OSFs are serious problems in marriages and other exclusive long term relationships.
> 
> One minute you think that you're being fair and open minded when your husband hangs out with one or two friends....
> 
> ...


I didn't say it wasn't a problem. In fact I said my husband can't even have a OSF because of his past. Notice I said "reformed" so that tell you right there that he view it as something he had to overcome. It's not something he's proud of but it is something that he overcame and became a better person. I'm sorry this is an issue for you but I'm not the only one in this thread for whom it is not an issue. Why didn't you lash out at them? 

And as far as how have I helped anyone. Maybe they can consider doing what we do -- just don't have OSFs.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> and for someone who is trying to evaluate whether they have a problem in their marriage regarding third party relationships, well how have you helped anyone here .......


She made one of the most important points in the thread. OSFs are not for everyone and that they have a policy of mutual agreement for this.

One way to look at Cman's OP is that he is proposing ways to minimize the risks of OSFs. One of the best ways to do this is avoidance. Avoiding OSFs will largely avoid the problems with them. This only works if both spouses agree to this.

Most of the problems in this area on TAM are caused by spouses having differing opinions on the subject. It is super important to be in agreement with your spouse on this topic no matter if your marriage policy accepts OSFs or not.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

meson said:


> She made one of the most important points in the thread. OSFs are not for everyone and that they have a policy of mutual agreement for this.
> 
> *One way to look at Cman's OP is that he is proposing ways to minimize the risks of OSFs. One of the best ways to do this is avoidance. Avoiding OSFs will largely avoid the problems with them. This only works if both spouses agree to this.*
> Most of the problems in this area on TAM are caused by spouses having differing opinions on the subject. It is super important to be in agreement with your spouse on this topic no matter if your marriage policy accepts OSFs or not.


The other thing to do is to look carefully during the courtship and see how important your partner thinks of his /her OSFs.

But then this isn't always fool proof. I sensed a problem with (ex)H's ex gf. Despite the fact that she was married herself, you might have thought that those two were still together. I threatened to leave the relationship and he had a talk with her and we never had a problem with her again. Ah, but that talk was BEFORE we were married.

I also think that I _tawked_ too much about it. All that open honest tawk, gaining agreement only left me exposed.

I think savvy women know how to navigate away from these types of problems.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Wiserforit said:


> I don't drink, and that is 100% effective in eliminating any problems with alcohol.
> 
> Same with women friends. It's a program that can't fail. Bullet proof.
> 
> And I can't think of anything I'd be missing in life by not having women friends. In your case, your work and social activities are going to make that very different. A very different risk-reward calculus for you.


Pretty much how I see it. There really is no point to it for me. Nothing to gain from it. To me it seems people want OSF just for the sake of not being "controlled". Have at it I guess.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> The other thing to do is to look carefully during the courtship and see how important your partner thinks of his /her OSFs.


As I read your post, something crossed my mind.

When we use the term opposite sex friend, are we referring to really close friendships or are we referring to casual friends?

When I wrote the opening post, I was referring to casual friendships.
We have been married for 18 years and early in our marriage we both had very close OSF. However as things got better between us, those friendships just became lesser important to us individually, as we prioritized each other.

I think these people became _our_ friends, instead of _my_ friend and _her_ friend.

Funny how that happened, I never really took notice of it!

But we still do have casual OSF friends. Nothing really close or personal.


So for those who do have OSF, are these friends really , really close or just casual friends?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Casual to close but not really close. I don't think any OSF should be even close to the friendship with my spouse. 

Like you before I was married I had several OSFs and one of them was my closest friend ever up until marriage. We are still friends but not close anymore. It just sort of naturally changed after marriage.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> Casual to close but not really close. I don't think any OSF should be even close to the friendship with my spouse.
> 
> Like you before I was married I had several OSFs and one of them was my closest friend ever up until marriage. We are still friends but not close anymore. It just sort of naturally changed after marriage.


lol, yes.

Funny how that works!
Another thing I remember is that we started hanging around other couples like ourselves and doing stuff together.

But do you think the idea of a close OSF throughout the course of a marriage is a safe one?
I think it may be something difficult to manage and jealousy may come in. Not saying it is bound to happen, just speaking hypothetically.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

In my case, my exH's ex gf was someone he knew from "public school" as the Brits call it, boarding school and they dated while they were at University. Both he and she were part of one of his social circles. So yes, this was not a fly by night OSF ... but still, she does not have to parade around wearing the gifts that he gave her when they were dating -- and reminding him of them-- and also talk about trips they took together when they were dating..... mind you ..... her husband was in tow as well.

But what I find even more intriguing are these fly by night relationships. Like the one my fiance had. He only knew her 5 months longer than he knew her. And also the gf's / wives of my exH's friends. They were recent fixtures in his life, yet he wanted to be courtly with them while they were dismissive of me.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

STBX and I as some of you guys know had a joint social circle, and both of us had the right to say no to any OSF (or any friend) we didn't like. It worked for us for years. 

The only problem now though, is that this joint social circle is a REAL B-TCH now that we're seperated.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Thoughtful post as always CM. I have always had OS friends (stated numerous times on this forum). I have always followed your outline and it works. I speak with my OSF's about once or twice a year. Mainly on the phone.

Having lunch with one next Monday. The wife of course knows and does not care. These are all married women with families. I could not imagine entertaining a thought that would put either of our personal lives at risk. 

I never had any sisters growing up. I think this has been a substitute for me.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

I have always felt that I know I can trust my wife 100% so that's not the problem, but it's the GUYS out there that I don't trust at all unless they are totally gay and my wife isn't on their menu. So with that being said I would be totally uncomfortable with my wife having any hetro male friends that she spends time with away from me, and lucky for me she never really had any male friends that she wouldn't be willing to part with.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

RClawson said:


> Thoughtful post as always CM. I have always had OS friends (stated numerous times on this forum). I have always followed your outline and it works. I speak with my OSF's about once or twice a year. Mainly on the phone.
> 
> Having lunch with one next Monday. The wife of course knows and does not care. These are all married women with families. I could not imagine entertaining a thought that would put either of our personal lives at risk.
> 
> I never had any sisters growing up. I think this has been a substitute for me.



I have quite a few casual female friends.
My wife KNOWS all of them. Whenever they travel, or whenever my wife celebrates her birthday, they purchase gifts for her. My wife also purchases gifts for them.
Recently she had to remind me of this particular friend's birthday.
Yes, 
My wife even knows when they celebrate their birthdays.
We try to keep everything fully open .

Sometimes if an OSF calls on the landline,if my wife answers, before asking to speak to me,they exchange pleasantries with my wife. They never call and ask right away for me.
I think that's a small but effective way to show respect.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> In my case, my exH's ex gf was someone he knew from "public school" as the Brits call it, boarding school and they dated while they were at University. Both he and she were part of one of his social circles. So yes, this was not a fly by night OSF ... but still, she does not have to parade around wearing the gifts that he gave her when they were dating -- and reminding him of them-- and also talk about trips they took together when they were dating..... mind you ..... her husband was in tow as well.
> 
> But what I find even more intriguing are these fly by night relationships. Like the one my fiance had. He only knew her 5 months longer than he knew her. And also the gf's / wives of my exH's friends. They were recent fixtures in his life, yet he wanted to be courtly with them while they were dismissive of me.


I've been reading through your posts on this thread.
Sounds like you had a very bad, prolonged experience, and I'm wondering how come.
Is it that you were afraid to confront him, or is it that you were just naive?


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

I can remember one time when my ex decides to help out this guy from our church who became homeless for awhile, by offering him a place on our couch and to live with us for awhile without even consulting my feelings on it. And I was NOT ok with that arrangement because we didn't really know this guy that well and I don't trust many people, and we had two kids in the house ages 6 and 9 yrs old. Well she decided to overrule me on that and allowed him to move in on our couch, and needless to say that lasted all of about 3 days before the guy _volunteered_ to leave because I wasn't exactly giving off a "friendly" vibe. I simply did not like the fact at all that I came home from work at about 8:30pm to some dude sitting on my couch having a cold one, with my wife and two kids there alone while I was not home!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Satya said:


> I think "Not Just Friends" should be required reading for all married couples, newlyweds, or those who are engaged or dating seriously.
> 
> I wish I'd read it years ago.



Were you also a casualty of an OSF in your marriage?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I've never cheated on my wife. Not even when she was my girlfriend. Cheating has never been a particular problem with me. I am very devoted.

Having said that I'm human. I know exactly who I'd want to f*ck and who I wouldn't want to f*ck.

I have a female friend whom I love and go out with alone when we hang out. We use to call her my "work wife". I have zero attraction to her. There is zero danger that we'd ever pop off into something sexual. The very thought is ludicrous. 

Meanwhile I use to work with this wonderful woman who I was work friends with. We'd talk at work and occasionally grab lunch together at the local deli. We both are married and happy. I enjoyed her company. However I knew that, given the right set of circumstances, I'd be vulnerable to cheating because I was attracted to her on some level. Not likely, but definitely possible. So the boundaries there were far stricter than with the good friend from the example above.

I know that I couldn't be "just friends" with my very first girlfriend. So I think seeing her would instantly make me rip her clothes off? No, but there is a deep emotional history there that makes me more vulnerable and I wouldn't want to chance it.

And regardless I don't hang out or talk to any of my female friends with anywhere approaching the regularity that I do my male ones. It wasn't a boundary that I, or my wife, set. It's just what feels natural to me.

I don't buy people saying "oops, I slipped into an affair!". You know e_xactly_ who you're attracted to. There should be higher boundaries with people you have even a passing attraction to. You should be brutally honest with yourself and plan accordingly. And if you know deep down that you can't handle it you shouldn't have them as a friends.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> lol, yes.
> 
> Funny how that works!
> Another thing I remember is that we started hanging around other couples like ourselves and doing stuff together.
> ...


With OSFs, nothing is “safe”. Close or not it is something that should not be taken for granted. But I would avoid emotionally close (as in goto person for support) because the risk is high for bonding and eventually marital issues may come up which should be avoided. There have been threads on the definition of close in this respect. But in my opinion every relationship should be carefully monitored according to your OP points and the additional ones mentioned. Even same sex friends should be included. The primacy of the spousal relationship needs to be maintained and guarded in all cases.

I harp on this point because in my case nearly all of the boundaries and situations were “safe”. I never had significant alone time, rarely texted, nearly always kids or other people were present. She was my wife’s friend and I liked her husband. We all got along. There was no secrecy. My wife knew about my time in her company etc. There was nothing I ever said or wrote to her that I would be embarrassed if my wife saw or heard. So what happened? 

She was good with her kids. I learned how to be a better father by watching what she did and how she did it. A suggestion she made led me to get back into my hobby and involved me with my kids. She changed my life. We started working together in an organization (my wife was in it as well) and the escalation of contact started. Basically it was like a work place relationship but my wife was there. I developed feelings for her which I didn’t understand and competed with feelings for my wife. Anything that does that is never “safe”.

On the other hand my relationship with her was significant for my development and she helped our marriage more than my feelings for her hurt it. I have benefited from knowing her and that benefit is why I am an OSF advocate. I recognize the potential problems but we also have the potential to grow and become better people if we don’t arbitrarily isolate half the population.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm sure there are exceptions, but outside of opposite sex friends you grew up with or were close family friends, men won't keep an opposite sex friend around that they don't want to have sex with.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Wing Man said:


> I have always felt that I know I can trust my wife 100% so that's not the problem, but it's the GUYS out there that I don't trust at all unless they are totally gay and my wife isn't on their menu. So with that being said I would be totally uncomfortable with my wife having any hetro male friends that she spends time with away from me, and lucky for me she never really had any male friends that she wouldn't be willing to part with.


Be careful with gay people as well. A gay couple I know recently divorced and one soon started dating someone of the opposite sex. It was probably a factor...


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

BrockLanders said:


> I'm sure there are exceptions, but outside of opposite sex friends you grew up with or were close family friends, men won't keep an opposite sex friend around that they don't want to have sex with.


I think that's generally true, but not universally true. Jaquen's superb post nailed my situation perfectly: I have female friends, and they're friends precisely because I'm not attracted to them. I fully understand my limitations, as I had an EA a little over 20 years ago, and subsequently spend alot of time thinking about, establishing and shoring up boundaries because I suddenly understood far better my weaknesses.

There are women who I am most certainly attracted to, and could not possibly be friends with them for that reason. But ALL women? No.

But it's certainly true that a "man's gotta know his limitations". I'm well-acquainted with mine.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> I'm sure there are exceptions, but outside of opposite sex friends you grew up with or were close family friends, men won't keep an opposite sex friend around that they don't want to have sex with.


Interesting point you made there. I often hear men who are against OSF use this as a justification of their position on the issue.
I think it depends on the man.
Some men are just like that, I agree. But then, most men don't even know themselves, hence we have these affairs " happening."
So I'm thinking paople should just be honest with themselves.

Then , like the poster Messon above said, he never had the intention, but it just happened to him..
I think I've heard this from other men as well.

I am not one to " fall in love" just like that. I know who I am sexually attracted to, and definitely it's not every, single or married woman I come into contact with.
But all men are not like that and maybe its harder for some to recognize?
What do you think?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wing Man said:


> I can remember one time when my ex decides to help out this guy from our church who became homeless for awhile, by offering him a place on our couch and to live with us for awhile without even consulting my feelings on it. And I was NOT ok with that arrangement because we didn't really know this guy that well and I don't trust many people, and we had two kids in the house ages 6 and 9 yrs old. Well she decided to overrule me on that and allowed him to move in on our couch, and needless to say that lasted all of about 3 days before the guy _volunteered_ to leave because I wasn't exactly giving off a "friendly" vibe. I simply did not like the fact at all that I came home from work at about 8:30pm to some dude sitting on my couch having a cold one, with my wife and two kids there alone while I was not home!


Wait if you 100% trust your wife, but are worried about guys, are you saying your concern is more along the rape/sexual assault line?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> I'm sure there are exceptions, but outside of opposite sex friends you grew up with or were close family friends, men won't keep an opposite sex friend around that they don't want to have sex with.


The only men who believe this are the ones who don't see any value in half the world's population other than their ability to receive a c*ck in one of the orifices of their body.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> The only men who believe this are the ones who don't see any value in half the world's population other than their ability to receive a c*ck in one of the orifices of their body.


That's quite a leap you took there.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> That's quite a leap you took there.


How so?

If a man only keeps women around as "friends" whom he wants to f*ck (minus the exception given in your OP) it means he's excluding the friendship of women he doesn't desire sexually, but might connect with as people.

So how is a man who keeps only f*ckable female friends around not somebody who primarily views women through a sexual prism?


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> How so?
> 
> If a man only keeps women around as "friends" whom he wants to f*ck (minus the exception given in your OP) it means he's excluding the friendship of women he doesn't desire sexually, but might connect with as people.
> 
> So how is a man who keeps only f*ckable female friends around not somebody who primarily views women through a sexual prism?


It's not about excluding anyone, it's just that men usually have more in common with other men and gravitate toward each other in friendships. Men might overlook a lack of common ground with an attractive female they desire, consciously or unconsciously. It's by no means an absolute, as I commented before, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Meanwhile I use to work with this wonderful woman who I was work friends with. We'd talk at work and occasionally grab lunch together at the local deli. We both are married and happy. I enjoyed her company. However I knew that, given the right set of circumstances, I'd be vulnerable to cheating because I was attracted to her on some level. Not likely, but definitely possible. So the boundaries there were far stricter than with the good friend from the example above.
> 
> I don't buy people saying "oops, I slipped into an affair!". You know exactly who you're attracted to. There should be higher boundaries with people you have even a passing attraction to. You should be brutally honest with yourself and plan accordingly. And if you know deep down that you can't handle it you shouldn't have them as a friends.


:iagree:

Yes, there are women that I am instantly attracted towards and its important to setup stricter boundaries with them. With women I am really attracted towards, I don't trust myself with them and will not seek to develop a friendship. You are so right, you need to be very honest with yourself to recognize that it is in fact partially sexual to begin with.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

We both have OSF's that we've known for years and are close with, and OSF's that we've befriended more recently. None of these relationships create issues between us because we recognize that they aren't threats to our relationship.

We're opposed to the idea that men and women can't be platonic friends who enrich each other's lives. 

However, they would create problems if, for example, 

- I was spending more of my free time with the friend than with my SO
- he was doing that "helping her out" thing with one of them all too frequently
- we weren't open about the friendships
- we were opposed to introducing each other to our friends
- there were "secret" get togethers with the friends that were hidden from each other

We've also lived long enough to know that people are humans and do stupid things. I would burn the house down around our ears without hesitation if he were to ignore concerns I might have about a woman he knows, so I guess that's where the rubber hits the road - listening to each other and putting the relationship first. If we were to start ignoring each other's concerns as they come up, the OSF friend in question is a sign that the relationship has started to slip into trouble.


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## firefly789 (Apr 9, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> So the OSF dynamic does not fit into our marriage by mutual agreement.



I have to agree with committed. It's the same for my M. There are so many thing to nurture and guard within a marriage. Why add one more unnecessary complication? I had as many male as female friends before I married. Most of those friendships lapsed just because people's lives moved on. Otherwise, they became friends of both of us. No more one-to-one OS friends. It just makes married life easier for both of us.

Also, sometimes friendships grow slowly and lead to EA/PA without a strong attraction to start with. OSF can be a slippery slope, even later down the line.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

BrockLanders said:


> It's not about excluding anyone, it's just that men usually have more in common with other men and gravitate toward each other in friendships. Men might overlook a lack of common ground with an attractive female they desire, consciously or unconsciously. It's by no means an absolute, as I commented before, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.


One thing to consider is that it's not always true that men usually have more in common with men. Something my wife and I noticed long ago was that our communication styles are shifted from the norm. My wife talks with and gets along easier with men than women. Similarly I communicate with and get along better with women. Both my wife and I are shifted in the same direction so that we sync really well. We both have more same sex friends than OSFs but those same sex friends are closer and tend to understand us.

For me it is much easier to make small talk with a woman. Men's small talk is biased too much towards sports voyeurism and not enough about doing while at the same time trying to have a pissing contest. That kind of small talk for me is so banal and boring its no wonder that at parties with people I don't know I am more likely to end up talking with the ladies.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

norajane said:


> We've also lived long enough to know that people are humans and do stupid things. I would burn the house down around our ears without hesitation if he were to ignore concerns I might have about a woman he knows, so I guess that's where the rubber hits the road - listening to each other and putting the relationship first. If we were to start ignoring each other's concerns as they come up, the OSF friend in question is a sign that the relationship has started to slip into trouble.


:iagree::iagree:

Absolutely!!! For OSFs to work you need to have a good and respectful marriage to begin with. If you can't defer to your spouse with respect to an OSF then you shouldn't have them to begin with. Marriage first, friends of any sex after.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I'm sure this was already said, but my take on it is that even if it IS possible, why take the risk?

I'm pretty convinced I could do a shot of heroine and not get addicted to it, but why would I want to take the chance?

Are the rewards worth the risks? Those of us who have been cheated on are much more likely to see the risks of this. It's much too easy to have feelings for someone that you regularly share your feelings with.

You can still hang out with OSFs while in a committed relationship, it just shouldn't be done alone. Personal communication is also a bad idea IMO. If you want to talk or hang out, go on a double date.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

norajane said:


> We've also lived long enough to know that people are humans and do stupid things. * I would burn the house down around our ears without hesitation if he were to ignore concerns I might have about a woman he knows, so I guess that's where the rubber hits the road - listening to each other and putting the relationship first. If we were to start ignoring each other's concerns as they come up, the OSF friend in question is a sign that the relationship has started to slip into trouble.*


I cannot disagree with anything you posted.
Howver, I like this part above I underlined ;

".._so I guess that's where the rubber hits the road - listening to each other and putting the relationship first_
.."
Because I think that is the crux of the matter in the debate.

Some people are not in healthy relationships so they may be prone to seeking opposite sex friendships for some sort of emotional / psychological support whether overtly or covertly.
And like you said ,serious disagreements over the issue of an opposite sex friend may very well be a sign of deeper trouble in the relationship.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I'm sure there are exceptions, but outside of opposite sex friends you grew up with or were close family friends, men won't keep an opposite sex friend around that they don't want to have sex with.


Well - for me this issue is mostly moot. Any OSF I had were from college, and now live 12 hours from me. But when I was in college, I had several male friends. No, I never slept with any of them. The two I was closest to made it clear they weren't interested in me in any way sexually (one told me to my face once he thought I was too fat) and yet - we were still friends. Likely because I was the Penny to their Big Bang Theory group - my gender was secondary to the fact that I shared their interest in comic books, the Lord of the Rings, tabletop Dungeons and Dragons, or helped them study. They burped and farted and told crude jokes in my presence. Our social group remained closely knit on a series of insults and "roasting". I helped them move stuff, I helped them fix computers or push their rust bucket car when it stalled out somewhere. I think they always considered me "one of the guys." They didn't view me as sexual conquest material, for one reason or another, and thus never tried. I was alone with them, hell - slept over at one of their houses several times, and they never bothered trying or even suggesting anything. 

So - I don't know, I've had OSF male friends where nothing happened, and no one wanted anything to happen.

But - that being said, I did have an OSF I went to high school with that I was very attracted to. I made no qualms about it, and asked him out several times. He turned me down. He used to come visit me in college, and we'd hang out. But I myself realized that it couldn't work. We were both single at the time, so it wasn't any consideration if something might have happened there would be cheating. It was the realization that it was never going to happen - and just being his friend when I wanted more was too emotionally draining. And I cried and I mourned what couldn't happen even though I had feelings for him, and then just stopped seeing him. 

I didn't go to my high school reunion two summers ago, because I knew seeing him would be a trigger for digging up feelings I don't need to deal with. I knew for myself that it would be an issue. Not because he's a former lover, and I see us finally rekindling some flame that was never there to begin with but I know it would be emotional, so - I've avoided the situation. Maybe by my 15th anniversary, it will be far enough in the past I'll be numb to it. 

So - I've had both situations. I've had OSF where nothing happened, no one wanted anything to happen, and things proceeded for all other intents and purposes like a normal same-sex friendship. And I've had a OSF where there were emotional attachments and sexual feelings. 

So - I think it can depend. But the ultimate thing is people having self-awareness and boundaries. But if someone doesn't have those than any interaction with the opposite sex is liable to be a problem.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

COguy said:


> You can still hang out with OSFs while in a committed relationship, it just shouldn't be done alone. Personal communication is also a bad idea IMO. If you want to talk or hang out, go on a double date.


I just read your comment an it made me chuckle.

I guess that you are among those who think having OSF's is just asking for trouble. I'm not disagreeing with you , because I think you speak from your own experiences.
So I would like to ask you something based on your school of thought.
I want to get into your mindset.
Do you think that a married man or woman would want to have an OSF who was not physically attractive?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I've been reading through your posts on this thread.
> Sounds like you had a very bad, prolonged experience, and I'm wondering how come.
> Is it that you were afraid to confront him, or is it that you were just naive?


With my exH's ex gf, I confronted very quickly. I think the fact that we were not married yet made him want to take care of things quickly. And as I said, she was never a problem again.

I think some of the mistakes that I made when I was married (the first time) is that I assumed that everyone knows how to behave...... and they don't. And I guess I was always worried about whether they liked me. Remember, I am from the US, had no friends in the UK when I arrived. So my social life was starting from scratch. I put up with a lot more than I would now.

Which explains why I got rid of this so called friend that my erstwhile boyfriend / current fiancé was dragging around.

Some ideas about OSFs that I have crystalized through my own experience and from reading here:

1. OSFs are not 100% interchangeable with same sex friendships. People who try to act as if they are, are people who should be avoided.
2. Every relationship, including OSFs, are dynamic. Yesterday's just friends arrangement can suddenly become one in which "you have feelings for."
3. Every relationship has the potential to influence and not always positively other relationships.

People who bang on about how they are not going to give up their OSFs under any condition are not ready for marriage or any other exclusive commitment.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

COguy said:


> I'm sure this was already said, but my take on it is that even if it IS possible, why take the risk?
> 
> I'm pretty convinced I could do a shot of heroine and not get addicted to it, but why would I want to take the chance?
> 
> ...


All of my friends have enriched my life otherwise they probably wouldn't be my friends. I seek to better myself and encounter new things and my friends are integral in that. Both sexes enrich my life, everyone has something to offer. For me that is the benefit and integral to living life. As Laird Hamilton says in my sig, I don't want to not live because of what might happen. He said that about big wave surfing and I understand it from climbing but it also applies here for me as well.

I do recognize the risk of shooting up. There is this one particular woman that I met and climbed with who is so inspiring and amazingly hot that there is no way I would take that shot of heroin. I know her boyfriend and her parents and they are similarly inspiring. I can't trust my intentions with her and keep my distance.

Its a decision I make case by case not for all OSF at a single time.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I just read your comment an it made me chuckle.
> 
> I guess that you are among those who think having OSF's is just asking for trouble. I'm not disagreeing with you , because I think you speak from your own experiences.
> So I would like to ask you something based on your school of thought.
> ...


I'm definitely biased. If you had a child killed in a car accident because he was texting and driving, and then went on a forum and spent time with a whole bunch of other people who lost loved ones to texting and driving, wouldn't you tell people not to do it? That whatever potential gain from the activity was outweighed by the risk?

There's an entire board here of people who had their lives ruined because they had poor boundaries. No, everyone that has an OSF will not cheat, but how do you know you're not going to be a part of the statistic?

To answer your question, I don't know about the attraction thing. I do know that even people that aren't physically attractive can become attracted to eachother when they share feelings. I've seen both men and women leave their partners for people that were "ugly", but felt like the other person understood them. I don't think the attraction is as important as the sharing of feelings and experiences that leads people to believe they are connected. It's just too easy to do harmful things to a relationship when OS friends are involved.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> People who bang on about how they are not going to give up their OSFs under any condition are not ready for marriage or any other exclusive commitment.


:iagree:

I think that is what Norajane and a some others said in their posts.
And I agree with this school of thought.

So you are saying that your husband constantly abused the freedom of having OSF's and eventually cheated?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

COguy said:


> To answer your question, I don't know about the attraction thing. I do know that even people that aren't physically attractive can become attracted to eachother when they share feelings. I've seen both men and women leave their partners for people that were "ugly", but felt like the other person understood them. *I don't think the attraction is as important as the sharing of feelings and experiences that leads people to believe they are connected. It's just too easy to do harmful things to a relationship when OS friends are involved.*


Well ,I get your point and I agree.
I fully understand your bias and that's perfectly ok.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I cannot disagree with anything you posted.
> Howver, I like this part above I underlined ;
> 
> ".._so I guess that's where the rubber hits the road - listening to each other and putting the relationship first_
> ...


Norajane is spot on. You are right, it is the crux of the matter. It is what kept me from going too far and it was my conclusion (see the listen to your spouse link in my sig) as well.

The problem with OSFs are significant when the spousal relationship is not healthy and they are searching to fill a void in their life. The OSF then may fill it all too easily in such a way to create a further wedge in their spousal relationship. OSFs are a happy crutch for many with troubled marriages. A lot of the EA/PA stories here start exactly like this.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I think that is what Norajane and a some others said in their posts.
> And I agree with this school of thought.
> ...


It seemed that I never felt comfortable with the way he handled third party relationships. A lot of the women I met through him were very dismissive of me. Perhaps one could put that down to culture. His posh circles could be very snooty. 

But also I felt even with the friends that I had developed that he behaved in ways that encouraged them.

But also, it was due to my own naivete, that is, that we could all be friends and everyone would treat each fairly and not engage in one upmanship......... like women calling your husband instead of you. I've grown up from that.

I had also put off having children. I didn't see the sign that he had checked out of the relationship. The affair that he did have I see as an exit affair. In fact, with someone completely out of his /our social circles.

So my situation does support one of the beliefs on this message board: that is, inappropriate relationships / EA can be just detrimental to a marriage as a PA is.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

COguy said:


> To answer your question, I don't know about the attraction thing. I do know that even people that aren't physically attractive can become attracted to eachother when they share feelings. I've seen both men and women leave their partners for people that were "ugly", but felt like the other person understood them. I don't think the attraction is as important as the sharing of feelings and experiences that leads people to believe they are connected. It's just too easy to do harmful things to a relationship when OS friends are involved.


what I hear regularly is 
1. I don't find her attractive.
2. You're better than she is.

and so on. I would not believe anything I hear, just what I see.

What I have seen is that men seem to be attracted to edgy women. If they are not classically attractive, then something about the circumstances in which they met is meaningful. They probably understand that they don't make good long term partners so they try to keep them on as friends.

I refuse to be treated like the dependable wife while they cavort --whenever possible with their "just a friend mistress."


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a couple of OSF friends, whom I have had since long before I met my H. They are men who are respectful and we aren't "into each other". My H has met them and he trusts me and these particular men.

But I don't make new male friends or try to bring them into our relationship.

I have some male acquaintances but I would never hang out with them and we don't have each other's phone numbers, etc. My H and I also don't do Facebook.

I know that men will try to befriend me and then try to "get closer". There is no question that they would do this if given the opportunity, so I don't give them one.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

COguy said:


> I'm definitely biased. If you had a child killed in a car accident because he was texting and driving, and then went on a forum and spent time with a whole bunch of other people who lost loved ones to texting and driving, wouldn't you tell people not to do it? That whatever potential gain from the activity was outweighed by the risk?
> 
> There's an entire board here of people who had their lives ruined because they had poor boundaries. No, everyone that has an OSF will not cheat, but how do you know you're not going to be a part of the statistic?
> 
> To answer your question, I don't know about the attraction thing. I do know that even people that aren't physically attractive can become attracted to eachother when they share feelings. I've seen both men and women leave their partners for people that were "ugly", but felt like the other person understood them. I don't think the attraction is as important as the sharing of feelings and experiences that leads people to believe they are connected. It's just too easy to do harmful things to a relationship when OS friends are involved.



Yes, I would recommend that they don't txt and drive. But then again like you said the benefits are minimal for this case. 

A better example would be an alcoholic. There are benefits to alcohol (the polyphenols) that are known but those benefits can become obliterated when it is abused. Abstinence and avoidance is something I would recommend for alcoholics. Similarly I would recommend the same for certain types of people with OSFs. Someone who is or was a chronic player probably shouldn't risk OSFs. 

I agree with you here that no OSFs for many makes sense. You are certainly not wrong. But for those that can handle them and get the benefits the dangers need to be managed by items like Cman listed in the OP.

I might indeed become a statistic but I am not going to not live my life just because of what could happen (Laird Hamilton). I listened to my spouse and the problem I found myself in was resolved. Likewise my wife has listened to me and backed off from a friendship. Demonstrably we are on the same page so though it could happen in the future that she or I will post in CWI, for now we are vigilant and enjoying our OSFs.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife;2500097
But I don't make new male friends or try to bring them into our relationship.[/QUOTE said:


> Faithful,
> The last paragraph in your post just made me laugh.:rofl:
> 
> Seriously though, the part I'm quoting from above also caught my attention,. Here's why.
> ...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> It's not about excluding anyone, it's just that men usually have more in common with other men and gravitate toward each other in friendships. Men might overlook a lack of common ground with an attractive female they desire, consciously or unconsciously. It's by no means an absolute, as I commented before, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.


This makes sense to me, thank for explaining.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well CM, I meant in in comparison to the few male friends who I have had since before I met my H, and who my H is friends with now, too (so therefore, I brought those friends with me into the relationship).

And occasionally, I make a new female friend and I talk about her, introduce her to my H eventually, go out with her...and you know if she has a partner we might do double dates or whatever. Therefore, I'm bringing that friend into our relationship.

But I would NOT meet some guy, make him my friend, hang out with him and then take him to meet my H...that's what I meant by "bring them into our relationship".


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well CM, I meant in in comparison to the few male friends who I have had since before I met my H, and who my H is friends with now, too (so therefore, I brought those friends with me into the relationship).
> 
> And occasionally, I make a new female friend and I talk about her, introduce her to my H eventually, go out with her...and you know if she has a partner we might do double dates or whatever. Therefore, I'm bringing that friend into our relationship.
> 
> But I would NOT meet some guy, make him my friend, hang out with him and then take him to meet my H...that's what I meant by "bring them into our relationship".


I understand that!

But I gave the example of one of my buddies whose wife did just the opposite of what you did.
And I'm wondering what is her logic in doing so. We aren't close anymore , so I can't ask .

So I'm asking you why did you decide not to bring any more OSF in your relationship.

Some women and maybe even men ,see no problem with adding more OSF's to their relationship, once no " rules are broken."

So I'm just asking your view, and why.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

meson said:


> For me it is much easier to make small talk with a woman. Men's small talk is biased too much towards sports voyeurism and not enough about doing while at the same time trying to have a pissing contest. That kind of small talk for me is so banal and boring its no wonder that at parties with people I don't know I am more likely to end up talking with the ladies.


I use to make friends easier with girls than guys when I was a kid/teen. Not growing up with a strong male presence in my life made me feel more alien to other boys than to girls. 

That changed when I set about exploring my masculinity and reinforcing it. I hated feeling on the outside with other males, so I let myself in. Women became far less appealing as close personal friends and most of my friends became men as a result. But the thing is that I have a lot of male friendships that run very deep. I don't do shallow friendships, regardless of sex. I completely connect with you saying that guys aren't as appealing as friends because of the reasons given. 

My biggest discovery between interacting with men vs women, as someone who is good at befriending both. With women they give more of themselves upfront with ease but men I have to give more of myself upfront in order for them to feel comfortable reciprocating openness and depth. My male friendships have a lot to them but that's because I almost always had to give a lot, FAR more than is expected of men, in order to forge those bonds. A lot of men don't feel safe moving beyond the shallow.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I understand that!
> 
> But I gave the example of one of my buddies whose wife did just the opposite of what you did.
> And I'm wondering what is her logic in doing so. We aren't close anymore , so I can't ask .
> ...


Some people /couples are committed to networking since these days the lines between personal and professional can get blurred. My exH and I entertained a lot. (that was a nice memory). As management consultant, he would invite colleagues from work for a dinner party or a BBQ.

If a couple entertains a lot --together-- then meeting new people whatever sex /gender they are can be integrated into their life even while observing arms length handing of the relationship.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> But also, it was due to my own naivete, that is, that we could all be friends and everyone would treat each fairly and not engage in one upmanship......... like women calling your husband instead of you. I've grown up from that.


That is what should happen but unfortunately it doesn't always. Those so called friends are toxic and not healthy to a marriage. Those are precisely the types that a spouse should be able to veto and remove without excuses of "we are just friends" etc.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM asked: "So I'm asking you why did you decide not to bring any more OSF in your relationship."

I just don't have any interest in truly being friends with any new men. They can be acquaintances just fine. I have plenty of male energy around me, my current male friends and relatives, my husband and my son, co-workers, etc. I have nothing against more male friends, but why bother?

My husband's male friends are my friends now, too. So I have all of them as well.

I enjoy men, but their friendship or companionship is not something I crave. I crave my husband's masculinity, his companionship, and his time.

For friendship, I prefer females.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> So my situation does support one of the beliefs on this message board: that is, inappropriate relationships / EA can be just detrimental to a marriage as a PA is.


Your ex-husband's problem wasn't OSF. It was a lack of respect for you as his wife from the get go. That he'd stay friends with any person, male or female, who treated you like these people did was the major sign that this man had little respect for you.

OSF, or no OSF, the was primed to cheat because he didn't hold you at high regard. And people who don't cherish and respect their spouses are extremely vulnerable to affairs.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Your ex-husband's problem wasn't OSF. It was a lack of respect for you as his wife from the get go. That he'd stay friends with any person, male or female, who treated you like these people did was the major sign that this man had little respect for you.
> 
> OSF, or no OSF, the was primed to cheat because he didn't hold you at high regard. *And people who don't cherish and respect their spouses are extremely vulnerable to affairs*.


It does make me wonder what his second marriage is like. But I have not even bothered to google search him.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I enjoy men, but their friendship or companionship is not something I crave. *I crave my husband's masculinity, his companionship, and his time.*


I thought^^^so!

So I'm thinking that married people who constantly crave OSF's may have some problems in themselves or their marriage?
They may not have intentions to cheat, but somewhere there may be a void?

BTW,Thanks for answering!


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Wing Man said:


> I can remember one time when my ex decides to help out this guy from our church who became homeless for awhile, by offering him a place on our couch and to live with us for awhile without even consulting my feelings on it. And I was NOT ok with that arrangement because we didn't really know this guy that well and I don't trust many people, and we had two kids in the house ages 6 and 9 yrs old. Well she decided to overrule me on that and allowed him to move in on our couch, and needless to say that lasted all of about 3 days before the guy _volunteered_ to leave because I wasn't exactly giving off a "friendly" vibe. I simply did not like the fact at all that I came home from work at about 8:30pm to some dude sitting on my couch having a cold one, with my wife and two kids there alone while I was not home!


This would be a deal breaker for me. You ex was out of her mind. Homeless guy in your home with pre teens? No efn way! He steps foot in my home, against my will, he is going to be introduced to my Louisville Slugger.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

RClawson said:


> This would be a deal breaker for me. You ex was out of her mind. Homeless guy in your home with pre teens? No efn way! He steps foot in my home, against my will, he is going to be introduced to my Louisville Slugger.


yeah, wing Man. I feel sorry for the homeless man. Your wife was really out of line. 

Maybe you or she was able to help him find somewhere else to stay.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have a couple of OSF friends, whom I have had since long before I met my H. They are men who are respectful and we aren't "into each other". My H has met them and he trusts me and these particular men.
> 
> *But I don't make new male friends or try to bring them into our relationship.*
> 
> ...


That is interesting. Although I have many OSF's. I cannot imagine having another in my life that would be as significant as they are........and they really are not that significant.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Wait if you 100% trust your wife, but are worried about guys, are you saying your concern is more along the rape/sexual assault line?


I think you got the two mixed up because it's my _current_ wife that I trust 100%, but as far as my ex that was maybe like 85% especially towards the end.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

RClawson said:


> This would be a deal breaker for me. You ex was out of her mind. Homeless guy in your home with pre teens? No efn way! He steps foot in my home, against my will, he is going to be introduced to my Louisville Slugger.


He wasn't a "true" homeless man but was a guy who had become homeless after a job loss and a foreclosure, and who was just down on his luck.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

One thing I find interesting about the OSF debate is that both in cyberspace and IRL, it's women who defend the OSF paradigm more often and more fiercely than men do.

I find it's usually women who will tell me to say nothing and do nothing because I will appear jealous and insecure to my partner. And that I am trying to change him or control him.

I suspect now that the women who respond in this way are either currently benefiting from an OSF and probably in the inappropriate ways. OR she it's aspirational, she would like to have some or more male friends and carry on in a way where gets all the advantage.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> One thing I find interesting about the OSF debate is that both in cyberspace and IRL, it's women who defend the OSF paradigm more often and more fiercely than men do.
> 
> I find it's usually women who will tell me to say nothing and do nothing because I will appear jealous and insecure to my partner. And that I am trying to change him or control him.
> 
> I suspect now that the women who respond in this way are either currently benefiting from an OSF and probably in the inappropriate ways. OR she it's aspirational, she would like to have some or more male friends and carry on in a way where gets all the advantage.


Interesting that you should bring this up.
Sometime ago I came across a thread right here on TAM where the OP complained of his wife spending time with the next door neighbour at his home drinking till 3 AM in the morning, whilst the neighbour's wife was asleep.

Surprisingly , a few of the female posters saw nothing wrong with her conduct or that it was inappropriate.
_This young man's wife was spending time with her much older neighbour, in his house ,during the wee hours of the morning whilst his dear wife of many years was inside, asleep._

In real life , I too have seen more women than men defend OSF's in their marriages.
I suppose women who defend it vigorously,do so because of the dynamics in _their_ marriage, whether its positive or negative.
However, I don't think there is a " _one-size-fits-all_ " solution to this issue.
But like we said before there must be some fundamental rules and boundaries.
I totally believe in self discipline, but some people are totally incapable of it.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

Just always remember that it's not your spouses that you don't trust in most cases, but it's the OTHER person involved that shouldn't be fully trusted. Just because your spouse is trustworthy and faithful doesn't mean some else is going to be is my motto in all of this.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> One thing I find interesting about the OSF debate is that both in cyberspace and IRL, it's women who defend the OSF paradigm more often and more fiercely than men do.


Nope. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every single person I know, regardless of sex, and relationship status, has OSF and trust me I know _hundreds_ of people. Every. Single. Person. 

I did not run into a gaggle of people stating that OSF were not allowed until I came to TAM. Of course we all are aware of the "can men and women really be just friends" debate but until visiting TAM that was all just a theoretical debate. I'd never interacted with a single man or woman who refused to have OSF in actuality or had them banned totally from their marriage/relationship before stumbling through the doors of Talk About Marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wing Man said:


> Just always remember that it's not your spouses that you don't trust in most cases, but it's the OTHER person involved that shouldn't be fully trusted. Just because your spouse is trustworthy and faithful doesn't mean some else is going to be is my motto in all of this.


Unless your primary concern is rape this makes no sense at all. It's such a common line of thought that is rarely challenged.

But that's like saying "I trust my wife not to steal another person's wallet, but it's the MONEY I don't trust!". 

If you 100% trust your spouse why would you be concerned about what the OTHER person is doing, unless your primary concern is a safety one like rape or sexual assault?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Nope. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every single person I know, regardless of sex, and relationship status, has OSF and trust me I know hundreds of people. Every. Single. Person."

Half of these people will end up divorced, OSF friends or not.

Most people don't study marriage and what makes marriage work (and what causes divorce). When someone DOES start studying marriage and how to avoid divorce and how to affair proof your marriage, THEN you come across the literature that has advice on these subjects.


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## Latigo (Apr 27, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Nope. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every single person I know, regardless of sex, and relationship status, has OSF and trust me I know _hundreds_ of people. Every. Single. Person.
> 
> I did not run into a gaggle of people stating that OSF were not allowed until I came to TAM. Of course we all are aware of the "can men and women really be just friends" debate but until visiting TAM that was all just a theoretical debate. I'd never interacted with a single man or woman who refused to have OSF in actuality or had them banned totally from their marriage/relationship before stumbling through the doors of Talk About Marriage.


I don't know if I ever read you post. What if any boundaries do you and your wife have insofar as what you can and cannot do with your respective OSFs? In my marriage, beyond the casual hello, ALL else is pretty much banned. I view my wife wasting time with other men as "stealing" from our marriage. Just to give you an idea of how far I take this, last week I found a pic in one of her old photo albums of an OSF of hers that I have a problem with. I had her tear it up and throw it away. He was her past, I am her present and future. If my attitude ever becomes a problem for her, she is welcome to divorce me.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Latigo said:


> I don't know if I ever read you post. What if any boundaries do you and your wife have insofar as what you can and cannot do with your respective OSFs?


My wife and I don't police one another's friendships. We trust each other to put boundaries in place out of love, and respect, for the relationship. There are natural boundaries there with our OSF but those arose organically from within us individually, and were never imposed by the other. We never sat down and made any "rules" about OSF in our marriage. If one of us felt there was a problem we'd bring it up, but that has not happened and there is nothing remotely inappropriate going on between she and I and our few OSF. 





Latigo said:


> In my marriage, beyond the casual hello, ALL else is pretty much banned. I view my wife wasting time with other men as "stealing" from our marriage. Just to give you an idea of how far I take this, last week I found a pic in one of her old photo albums of an OSF of hers that I have a problem with. I had her tear it up and throw it away. He was her past, I am her present and future. If my attitude ever becomes a problem for her, she is welcome to divorce me.


I can't speak for you, or anyone else, but this doesn't sound remotely like the kind of marriage either one of us are interested in participating in.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

jaquen said:


> My wife and I don't police one another's friendships. We trust each other to put boundaries in place out of love, and respect, for the relationship. There are natural boundaries there with our OSF but those arose organically from within us individually, and were never imposed by the other. We never sat down and made any "rules" about OSF in our marriage. If one of us felt there was a problem we'd bring it up, but that has not happened and there is nothing remotely inappropriate going on between she and I and our few OSF.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


jaquen, we both share similar opinions on OSFs but I think it's best to police your spouse to some degree on this. Entropy & Sigma are on TAM and survived their full EAs because of their spouses interventions. Likewise my wife interviewed to a lessor extent but enough to cause me to re-evaluate and extract myself. I tell you I was lucky. Very Lucky. If the OW I had feelings for had escalated or shared any feelings of love or pursued me, I don't know how it would have turned out. 

I don't go as far as latigo but his wife had a history of a Facebook, gaming escalation that needed to be halted. His wife is onboard with the restrictions so it works for them. Some women find those kind of rules fair and attractive provided its not all one sided and they don't feel controlled. I know that the husband of the woman I had feelings for forbid her to do lots of things like walking the paths in the neighborhood. She was cool with it and found his concern attractive. Why he didn't step in where I'm concerned I don't know. If he had it would have made it easier.

It's not something I sought. I didnt want it. The feeling developed and the urge to be with her was so compelling. I hope you and your wife don't have this happen to you. But it can happen and if you have your spouses back and she has yours your marriage will be stronger. It would be a shame to see a good marriage destroyed by clinging to trust in these situations.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jaquen...I love how your marriage sounds...but do you have to use language like "policing" when describing other marriages that do things a little differently? You seem to be implying that there is something wrong with or odd about a couple who do a bit more mate-guarding than you do. To each their own, no?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

meson said:


> jaquen, we both share similar opinions on OSFs but I think it's best to police your spouse to some degree on this.


I understand this works for some but it does not work for us. I would not be married under these conditions. We all get to decide what kind of marriage is important to us and this kind of behaviour didn't fit into our view of our relationship and it doesn't our marriage. We didn't have rules or specific barriers back when we were unmarried and living 268 miles apart and we won't start policing now.



meson said:


> I hope you and your wife don't have this happen to you. But it can happen and if you have your spouses back and she has yours your marriage will be stronger. It would be a shame to see a good marriage destroyed by clinging to trust in these situations.


That's the risk we take. 100% trust has been our standard since we were barely adults. It will remain so until such a time that one of us dies, or betrays the other. And neither of us are interested in being in a relationship with less than 100% trust in one another. We have a relationship built on trust and a great love, and we have no choice but to trust that each of us will act in accordance with what's best for the relationship independent of any policing. Anything less than that is simply representative of the kind of relationship we are not interested.

It's not about having a magical immunity to infidelity. It's about moving forward with the kind of relationship and marriage that is paramount to us.





Faithful Wife said:


> jaquen...I love how your marriage sounds...but do you have to use language like "policing" when describing other marriages that do things a little differently? You seem to be implying that there is something wrong with or odd about a couple who do a bit more mate-guarding than you do. To each their own, no?


Thank you for the compliment.

I'm not saying anything about anyone else's marriage. I'm saying that this kind of behaviour indeed would be considered "policing" to me in *my* marriage. 

I've stated, ad nauseum, on this board that I believe that whatever works, works. As long as the two people are on one accord and agree. I don't care if two people decided they couldn't have any friends, even same sex ones, as long as both parties genuinely felt it was right for their marriage and made them happier.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Unless your primary concern is rape this makes no sense at all. It's such a common line of thought that is rarely challenged.
> 
> But that's like saying "I trust my wife not to steal another person's wallet, but it's the MONEY I don't trust!".
> 
> If you 100% trust your spouse why would you be concerned about what the OTHER person is doing, unless your primary concern is a safety one like rape or sexual assault?


Who said anything about "rape" or even hinted at it? I am talking about someone of the opposite sex possibly making a pass at your spouse - then getting rejected - and then it becomes an odd and uncomfortable situation for everyone. So why even put yourselves in that position?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wing Man said:


> Who said anything about "rape" or even hinted at it? I am talking about someone of the opposite sex possibly making a pass at your spouse - then getting rejected - and then it becomes an odd and uncomfortable situation for everyone. So why even put yourselves in that position?


How exactly are you suppose to stop someone from the opposite (or same sex) from making a pass at you or your wife?

People make passes. It's apart of life. Limiting or eliminating OSF isn't going to stop people from trying to pick up you or your wife.


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## Latigo (Apr 27, 2011)

jaquen said:


> How exactly are you suppose to stop someone from the opposite (or same sex) from making a pass at you or your wife?
> 
> People make passes. It's apart of life. Limiting or eliminating OSF isn't going to stop people from trying to pick up you or your wife.


 For me it is more about preventing emotional bonding and intimacy than preventing men from making passes at my wife. Those things are my domain alone.


I am not saying you are wrong about this stuff, but I am also saying that I am not wrong either. I post on these threads mostly for lurkers. I want them to know there are people making it work with strict boundaries should they be inclined to set them in their own relationships. 

As Meson said above, this isn't a one sided thing. Mrs. Latigo has her boundaries too. Believe it or not, I am expected to have limited contact with my SISTER! Now, I know she doesn't think I wanna shtup my sister. But, it is a boundary she expects me to enforce. And, as she is my wife, I will comply. It is one of those things I signed up for. And as my sister is a total Beautiful Intelligent Talented Caring Human, I can see where my wife I coming from. Anything that I don't want my wife to do, I don't do. I am more strict with my own behavior than I expect her to be with hers. 

Understand that infidelity has had a huge impact on my family. My dad is a world heavyweight champion philanderer. My mom abandoned the family (but returned 2 weeks later) when I was 7. I found out this past year that it was to be with a guy she was having and EA with. Neither has ever enforced boundaries on the other. 

My afore mentioned sister is having this situation played out in front of our eyes in real time. She has been engaged for a year but, she has an ex who she never got over as a FB friend. They have, in the last few weeks, been mentally j-e-rking each other off on each other FB walls. I just shake my head. She and her fiancé have very loose boundaries. She'd laugh her butt off at the very notion. 

If you knew me, you'd know that I am one of the most socially liberal people you could ever meet. I do half of the house work, 85% of the meals are cooked by me, and even though I earn the $$$ my wife physically handles the bills. But, on this one issue, I won't budge! This is my "thing". The one indulgence that I am allowing myself. It's my house, I own it, I live there! Nobody is kicking me outta my house!!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Latigo said:


> I am not saying you are wrong about this stuff, *but I am also saying that I am not wrong either.* I post on these threads mostly for lurkers. I want them to know there are people making it work with strict boundaries should they be inclined to set them in their own relationships.


Yes, but there isn't any debate about that, right? I don't believe I've ever seen anybody on this board who does allow for OSF say couples who don't are wrong. Sure we've had plenty of people tell us WE are wrong, but not really the reverse. I don't care what boundaries a couple has as long as they are mutually agreed upon and make the marriage better. That's all that matters!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

:sleeping:


Wing Man said:


> Who said anything about "rape" or even hinted at it?* I am talking about someone of the opposite sex possibly making a pass at your spouse - then getting rejected - and then it becomes an odd and uncomfortable situation for everyone.* So why even put yourselves in that position?



first, who is likely to make a pass at your wife? Your best friend, someone else in your social circle? I hope not. Then you really do have problems all around.

If a guy at the bar or at the airport when she's traveling alone does, what does it matter then. If you don't ever see that person again, how uncomfortable can it get?

One thing about boundaries is that it improves the odds that someone won't even try it on.

Someone who has the reputation of not loaning money stops getting asked. Ditto for anything else they might not be generous with.

People who regularly and unnecessarily put themselves in a danger zone is well, asking for it. A woman who dirty dances with men at the bar -- whether she knows them or not. 

A guy who texts cutesy ambiguous messages to women in the name of friendship. 

Most people would view either of those examples as encouraging or indeed as grooming. 

But I have also learned the hard way that letting my husband return phone calls to the friend's wife can also be a slippery slope. If she wasn't inclined to being friendly with me in the first place, this is only giving her the reassurance that her contact with me will be minimised and she will no reason to be nice or even civil to me while interacting with my husband.

Over the years I have noticed how edgy some women can be with their husbands. I can think of two occasions, one when I was interviewing at the same company as friend's husband was working at and I asked if I could have a chat with her husband; and on another when I wanted to ask a friend's husband about the industry he worked in given another interview. Both women gave excuses for their husband's unavailability. 

But me? There was a time when I would have said, sure give my husband call. I won't be doing that again.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Going on the premise that human beings are not naturally monogamous,
I think it makes perfect sense to have very strong boundaries in your marriage, and I don't think its optional.
In a perfect world: 

Everyone pays their taxes ,

The boss understands if you're late for work, 

The mortgage company will forgive your debts is you get laid off,

If you lost your wallet, someone will return it to you.

You can leave the car keys in the ignition, leave your doors unlocked and attend to your business without fear of losing your car to thieves.

But we don't live in a perfect world, hence boundaries need to be enforced. Without this , they don't exist. Without strong boundaries, the marriage is an open one.

Different couples can decide exactly what are their specific boundaries with OSF's, but if there are boundaries, then they _must_ be enforced.
In a perfect world I can enforce my own boundaries about OSF's and my wife could do the same for her OSF's, and we both live happy. But we are two separate individuals with two completely, different minds working towards a common goal, and we are not perfect people.
There must be a mutual agreement on what are the boundaries we intend to enforce, and out of concern for our marriage and each other, we need to have each other's back covered.

Experience has taught me that I cannot *_see_* everything, but my wife who is very intuitive, is often able to alert me to potentially harmful situations with OSF's.
In fact in the past I have had to drop a couple of them.
The converse also applies.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I am trying to understand how the sleeping icon got on to my post.

What does it mean?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Latigo said:


> . But, on this one issue, I won't budge!


I just wanted to say that I love the pic in your Avatar.
That cobra is a DEAD snake and he doesn't even know it!


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I'm not saying anything about anyone else's marriage. I'm saying that this kind of behaviour indeed would be considered "policing" to me in *my* marriage.
> 
> I've stated, ad nauseum, on this board that I believe that whatever works, works. As long as the two people are on one accord and agree. I don't care if two people decided they couldn't have any friends, even same sex ones, as long as both parties genuinely felt it was right for their marriage and made them happier.


I agree with you completely here. In my relationship we also have no limitations with who we can interact as long as we are open and transparent to each other. 

In my view banning or severely limiting OSF's is a sign of insecurity, vulnerability and lack of trust. Using IT analogy, people sometimes declare their 'bugs' (issues) as features.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> I am trying to understand how the sleeping icon got on to my post.
> 
> What does it mean?


I have been running into a lot of technical difficulties today. I quoted a post ealier but the wrong post was quoted. Likes are not showing up sometimes. Things are a little off...

:sleeping:

Or perhaps you just need some coffee.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> I have been running into a lot of technical difficulties today. I quoted a post ealier but the wrong post was quoted. Likes are not showing up sometimes. Things are a little off...



I've been having some problems too.
Have to log in again everytime I jump to another forum.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I've been having some problems too.
> Have to log in again everytime I jump to another forum.


This happened to me as well. I was wondering if my wife had logged in as me and then logged out while I was posting.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

Just for the record what I meant in my previous posts was that if my wife is off hanging out with another dude or dudes on a regular basis that are "friends", it opens up a door of opportunity for someone to maybe get out of line or make a bad decision towards her. And please don't act like that never happens because there are probably a million scenarios out there where it has happened. So if it's a person that is around you all on the regular it could cause a lot of problems if a "pass" is made and rejected(or accepted). Because then it becomes do you tell your spouse that it happened but that it's all good, and then will your spouse be able to look past all that and continue liking or approving this "friend" your spouse likes to hang with, and will that "friend" then feel uncomfortable coming around after it happens. It all opens the door to one huuuuge headache in my opinion, which is why we've both agreed that it's not appropriate or comfortable to go off and hangout with opposite sex friends.

Now some complete stranger that makes a pass is entirely different because they will come and go like the wind, and will not be a part of your spouse's life in any way shape or form.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Wing Man said:


> Just for the record what I meant in my previous posts was that *if my wife is off hanging out with another dude or dudes on a regular basis that are "friends", it opens up a door of opportunity for someone to maybe get out of line or make a bad decision towards her.* And please don't act like that never happens because there are probably a million scenarios out there where it has happened. So if it's a person that is around you all on the regular it could cause a lot of problems if a "pass" is made and rejected(or accepted). Because then it becomes do you tell your spouse that it happened but that it's all good, and then will your spouse be able to look past all that and continue liking or approving this "friend" your spouse likes to hang with, and will that "friend" then feel uncomfortable after it happens.


Doesn't matter which side is errant...... the example just supports the need for boundaries.....

I learned on this board that a man and woman seeing one another one on one is a date, pure and simple. For those who insist that they are "just" friends, then it's a date like situation that blurs the lines.

In my younger years, I would accept it because well, we're all friends and such. But I think it is better to engage in behavior that people can not misconstrue.

with my fiance it became even more date like because he would pay for both of them, which is not what women do when they hang out with other women. And I guess men go dutch with the boys as well. Or at least take turns buying rounds.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jaquen said (to me): "I don't care if two people decided they couldn't have any friends, even same sex ones, as long as both parties genuinely felt it was right for their marriage and made them happier."

But if you don't care, why even make the distinction? Are you not aware that it sounds like you are making a judgment that your way is better? Because that is how it sounds. I believe you that you don't care, but I also think you somehow think your way is superior or that your marriage is. Nothing wrong with that either, but it would be better to just say it than lob things like "oh well, that policing wouldn't happen in MY marriage but have fun with that".


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Labeling or non-labeling something doesn't inherently change what it is. I mean, men in Saudi Arabia might consider not allowing women to drive or leave the house without a proper escort "spouse guarding" rather than "policing" as a matter of semantics. 

And there's plenty of judgement being cast in this thread, not just from Jaquen. Even if its less obvious. So - why turn this thread into a semantics battle?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It is just an observation I made and mentioned to jaquen. In fact, I am not sure he knows he is coming across as superior, so maybe he would want to know? This thread started by CM is just general discussion, not a person with a problem. So I don't see how my adding to the general discussion is a big deal. I don't expect to derail anything, since there is just chatting going on anyway. jaquen can answer me or ignore me, and so can anyone else. Free country (and forum).


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I see more judgment from others in this thread than from Jaquen. But he's a big boy and can defend himself, if necessary, not that I think he needs to defend himself. 

None of us are the marriage police. At times it seems like some here are self-appointed marriage police and I don't know why. Do what works for YOUR marriage. I'll do what works for mine. Live and let live.That's what I've said all along whenever these discussions pop up on TAM. 

Do what works for your particular marriage. If no OSF is your boundary then go for it. Just don't make those of us who choose to have casual platonic OSF and can make it work and haven't ever had infidelity issues in our marriage seem like clueless immoral people. Just like I don't want people imposing their religious or political views on me, I don't care to have someone else's definition of "good marriage" imposed on me either.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> I see more judgment from others in this thread than from Jaquen. But he's a big boy and can defend himself, if necessary, not that I think he needs to defend himself.
> 
> None of us are the marriage police. At times it seems like some here are self-appointed marriage police and I don't know why. Do what works for YOUR marriage. I'll do what works for mine. Live and let live.That's what I've said all along whenever these discussions pop up on TAM.
> 
> Do what works for your particular marriage. If no OSF is your boundary then go for it. Just don't make those of us who choose to have casual platonic OSF and can make it work and haven't ever had infidelity issues in our marriage seem like clueless immoral people. Just like I don't want people imposing their religious or political views on me, I don't care to have someone else's definition of "good marriage" imposed on me either.


Yes, but it does help to deconstruct these things for those people who feel funny, are uncomfortable but can't put their finger on what's wrong exactly.

Before I got here, I did think what's the problem with my husband hanging out with another woman as long as......... but that's problem. The right things don't always happen. And therefore some discussion of what's going on and how some people can subconsciously misconstrue things.....

When people say that they have lots of OSFs and they never have any problems with them, it's rare that we hear the details of those relationships. Do they share in jokes on Facebook in front of their spouses? Do they regularly go out with this person without their spouse? who pays for the outing? Is the OSF dismissive of the spouse? If the spouse were to call the OSF, would the OSF return the call? Or would the OSF call the friend to say that their spouse had called him or her? and so on......

Some wives have told me that they don't have problems with OSFs because their husband just never had any. Ok. And maybe other couples don't have problems with OSFs because they are lucky enough not to befriend anyone who is predatory. 

Just like my grandmother who was a 3 packer and lived to the age of 92, I would be the last person to say that smoking is healthy for anyone. and just because I might not have problems with a certain aspect of life does not mean that I assume that those who do probably deserve the problems that they are encountering because on this occasions let's see, they're not trying hard enough to get along with their spouses friends; they're too controlling or they're just too jealous and insecure.

Why does the blame always have to be inward? It could be that some people out there whom we haven't chosen to marry are just too selfish and predatory to give a damn about others.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> When people say that they have lots of OSFs and they never have any problems with them, it's rare that we hear the details of those relationships. Do they share in jokes on Facebook in front of their spouses? Do they regularly go out with this person without their spouse? who pays for the outing? Is the OSF dismissive of the spouse? If the spouse were to call the OSF, would the OSF return the call? Or would the OSF call the friend to say that their spouse had called him or her? and so on......


Do they share in jokes on Facebook in front of their spouses? 
YES. All the time. We have inside jokes, we "Like" each other's pictures and statuses, we poke fun of each other, we invite each out to events, just like with any other friend.

Do they regularly go out with this person without their spouse?
YES. Not regularly as in every week, but we're all far too busy for that. But when we do get together, sometimes it is without spouses and sometimes it is with spouses. 

who pays for the outing? 
Most of time, we split the bill. Unless it's someone's birthday. Or a thank you dinner, like when one of my friends watches my cat and picks up the mail while I'm on vacation with my SO, or I pick up their mail and water their garden while they're away.

Is the OSF dismissive of the spouse? 
No, of course not. We're friends and we support each other. Nothing makes us happier than to see our friends happy with their spouses or SO's. 

If the spouse were to call the OSF, would the OSF return the call? 
Yes, of course. I don't see any reason not to. 

Or would the OSF call the friend to say that their spouse had called him or her?
I'm sure the OSF friend would mention it at some point, but not like it was a big thing or OMG! or something. I'm actually not sure what this question is about.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wing Man said:


> Just for the record what I meant in my previous posts was that if my wife is off hanging out with another dude or dudes on a regular basis that are "friends", it opens up a door of opportunity for someone to maybe get out of line or make a bad decision towards her. And please don't act like that never happens because there are probably a million scenarios out there where it has happened. So if it's a person that is around you all on the regular it could cause a lot of problems if a "pass" is made and rejected(or accepted). Because then it becomes do you tell your spouse that it happened but that it's all good, and then will your spouse be able to look past all that and continue liking or approving this "friend" your spouse likes to hang with, and will that "friend" then feel uncomfortable coming around after it happens. It all opens the door to one huuuuge headache in my opinion, which is why we've both agreed that it's not appropriate or comfortable to go off and hangout with opposite sex friends.
> 
> Now some complete stranger that makes a pass is entirely different because they will come and go like the wind, and will not be a part of your spouse's life in any way shape or form.


Been there, done that. My wife has had a couple male "friends" who made their intentions known eventually. I told her to watch out for them because I knew they'd eventually reveal their true intent. She said "oh not, these are just my friends!". I said to her OK, watch baby, just watch.

They did and she dropped them on her own. No demands or commands from me. A friend who gets out of line is dropped, period.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I learned on this board that a man and woman seeing one another one on one is a date, pure and simple. For those who insist that they are "just" friends, then it's a date like situation that blurs the lines.


Nope, don't buy it. No matter how many times TAM posters try and convince me that me going out with a female friend one on one, or my wife going out with a male one (where she is right now actually), is a "date" I don't swallow. That sounds beyond absurd. Never heard any crap like that in my life until reading this board.

There is no such thing as an accidental "date". A "date" takes mutual consent and acknowledgement that it is, indeed, a date.



Faithful Wife said:


> jaquen said (to me): "I don't care if two people decided they couldn't have any friends, even same sex ones, as long as both parties genuinely felt it was right for their marriage and made them happier."
> 
> But if you don't care, why even make the distinction? Are you not aware that it sounds like you are making a judgment that your way is better? Because that is how it sounds. I believe you that you don't care, but I also think you somehow think your way is superior or that your marriage is. Nothing wrong with that either, but it would be better to just say it than lob things like "oh well, that policing wouldn't happen in MY marriage but have fun with that".



I couldn't care less how it sounds. Sorry if that comes off as rude, but it's the truth. I've said a 1001 times now, all up and down TAM, that I respect the boundaries people put into their relationship as long as both parties are happy. But if I'm applying their boundaries to MY relationship I'm going to use language that reflects how my wife and I view it. It is policing for MY marriage. That's the truth.

I don't believe in superior forms of marriage. I believe in what works. I'm not going to sugar coat stuff that doesn't work for ME, even if it's 100% wonderful for you, her, him, or everyone else. But why would I care what other people are doing in their marriage if they're happy and it's working?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Wow, another thread on OSF, but no one has even mentioned anything about bisexual spouses.

If you object to your spouse having opposite sex friends, then what do you do if your spouse is bisexual? They aren't allowed any friends at all?

The whole thing is ridiculous. If you can't trust your spouse not to cheat, then why are you still married to them in the first place?

In the military I've deployed to the Middle East several times, and I guess I've been tainted by the way men there are so incredibly suspicious of men and women even speaking to each other, and hypocritically, many of those men are having sex with young boys themselves. But that's "OK" since it's same sex. Whatever.

The common wisdom on TAM seems to be that your spouse should have the right to veto any friend he/she isn't comfortable with. But there has to be some limit to that, otherwise some of us would have no friends at all. I am not joking.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I was going to answer NTA's questions but NoraJane pretty much covered my answers! :smthumbup:

I'm pretty sure Faithfulwife touched on bisexual partners.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Wow, another thread on OSF, but no one has even mentioned anything about bisexual spouses.
> 
> If you object to your spouse having opposite sex friends, then what do you do if your spouse is bisexual? They aren't allowed any friends at all?
> 
> ...


Respectfully sir,
The thread is about *opposite sex friends in marriage *, not same sex friends in marriages with bisexual partners.

However ,if you would like to discuss same sex friends in marriages with bisexual partners, then I think you can probably start a new thread.

Also,I can't figure out the connection between men having sex with boys in the Middle East and opposite sex friends in marriage, maybe you can explain?

Finally, regarding the issue of a partner's veto powers, again, I specified *opposite sex friends* , not just any friend , in a marriage.

So then , what is _your_ take on* opposite sex friends* in a marriage?


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> When people say that they have lots of OSFs and they never have any problems with them, it's rare that we hear the details of those relationships. Do they share in jokes on Facebook in front of their spouses? Do they regularly go out with this person without their spouse? who pays for the outing? Is the OSF dismissive of the spouse? If the spouse were to call the OSF, would the OSF return the call? Or would the OSF call the friend to say that their spouse had called him or her? and so on......


I've talked about the details about OSF ad nauseum on TAM, but I don't expect people to have my old posts memorized so I'll answer your questions. 

*Do they share in jokes on Facebook in front of their spouses? *I am not active on Facebook. I have an account but that's mostly to stay in touch with my nieces, cousins and nephews. I have maybe 50 contact at most, and most are women. I don't have any old boyfriends on Facebook nor do I contact any of them. I actually don't know what any of them are doing. Most live in other states because they moved away.

I do share email jokes with one friend I've known for nearly 15 years. He's a grandfather, he came to my wedding. My husband knows him and trusts him. My husband enjoys reading the email jokes too. 

*Do they regularly go out with this person other than the spouse?*I have one friend that I might have a working lunch with once a month, but that's the only OSF I see regularly. Sometimes a colleague joins us, sometimes it's just he and I. He and I work in the same line of work so our talk is office talk, things happening in our industry, etc. It's nothing about our relationships. I like his wife. I've exchanged emails with his spouse. I've met her in person. She used to work here too. I've given her things from my garden and she has baked me brownies or given him things to give to me. I'm not the only OSF he has at our employer.

*If the spouse were to call the OSF, would the OSF return the call? *
I don't really call any of my OSF. I can't remember the last time I called one of them. My husband can call any of them if he wanted to, but he wouldn't because he doesn't see a reason to.

Other things I do and don't do..

I don't invite any OSF to my house. I don't go to their homes. My contact with them is mostly working lunches or emails or the occasional text. My husband knows my email accounts and passwords. He's very, very computer savvy so he could monitor me if he wanted to, but won't. I showed him some of the responses in this thread. He laughed and shook his head at some of the things said here. We've been together over 20 years, have a family together. There aren't any secrets between us. I stay with him because I want to, not because he has a tight leash on me or vice versa. 


NextTimeAround said:


> Just like my grandmother who was a 3 packer and lived to the age of 92, I would be the last person to say that smoking is healthy for anyone. and just because I might not have problems with a certain aspect of life does not mean that I assume that those who do probably deserve the problems that they are encountering because on this occasions let's see, they're not trying hard enough to get along with their spouses friends; they're too controlling or they're just too jealous and insecure.


I had an uncle who was an alcoholic for more than 2 decades. He lost many jobs because he wasn't one of those high functioning alcoholics who could do their drinking in secret. Just because he couldn't handle his liquor doesn't mean that other people have the same problems. He clearly needed to have boundaries around alcohol, but others can have one drink and be fine with it.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Respectfully sir,
> The thread is about *opposite sex friends in marriage *, not same sex friends in marriages with bisexual partners.
> 
> However ,if you would like to discuss same sex friends in marriages with bisexual partners, then I think you can probably start a new thread.
> ...



I think you missed my point. The point is, if you object to your spouse having opposite sex friends, then if that spouse is bisexual, to be consistent you would have to also object to them having same sex friends as well. I'm just wondering if anyone on TAM is willing to say any spouse can't have any friends at all.

I mentioned Middle Eastern men having sex with boys because they vehemently object to people having opposite sex friends while they have same-sex relations. It's incredibly hypocritical. I wasn't aware we were only allowed to discuss American marriages on this forum. 

Finally, my take on OSF? I think I made it pretty clear when I said: "_The whole thing is ridiculous. If you can't trust your spouse not to cheat, then why are you still married to them in the first place?_"


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Theseus said:


> The common wisdom on TAM seems to be that your spouse should have the right to veto any friend he/she isn't comfortable with. But there has to be some limit to that, otherwise some of us would have no friends at all. I am not joking.


Then maybe _you're _with the wrong partner.

I've been sensitive to aspects like length of friendships, how deep it is such as family connections, mutual friends. My exH's had known his exgf since childhood, his parents knew and regularly socialised with her parents. In fact, I found her mother very gracious at the lunches and parties we went to. I am glad that my husband reigned in her behavior before anything really bad had happened.

With my fiance we are taking about someone whom he knew only a few months longer than he has known me. He never bothered to introduce me to her and lied about the real nature of his relationship with her. 

And he has flipped back and forth on many issues. For example, when he mentioned "do you mind if I go out with other women but just as friends", he at one time said that should have been clue enough that he was still looking. But then he claims that she was always "just a friend." So a confusing use of the word "friend" here.

Also I came across information that showed that he was treating her better than he was treating me. So at a time when he knew she was ****ing someone else, she gets the girlfriend treatment and I get the "just a friend" treatment.

And from the messages that I read, she advised him to drop me because as far as she knew, I was avoiding sex with him.....

Now, there is no room in a committed exclusive relationship for an OSF like this one. So telling my fiance he needed to get rid of her or I would be leaving, was, IMO, was not an unreasonable request.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Theseus said:


> I think you missed my point. The point is, if you object to your spouse having opposite sex friends, then if that spouse is bisexual, to be consistent you would have to also object to them having same sex friends as well. I'm just wondering if anyone on TAM is willing to say any spouse can't have any friends at all.
> 
> I mentioned Middle Eastern men having sex with boys because they vehemently object to people having opposite sex friends while they have same-sex relations. It's incredibly hypocritical. I wasn't aware we were only allowed to discuss American marriages on this forum.
> 
> Finally, my take on OSF? I think I made it pretty clear when I said: "_The whole thing is ridiculous. If you can't trust your spouse not to cheat, then why are you still married to them in the first place?_"


Ok Theses,
Maybe I have missed the point.

You have been married for over 15 years .
I see from your past post that you have absolutely no problem with your wife having sex with other men, or threesomes , or the swinging lifestyle in_ YOUR_ marriage.

Can you tell us what boundaries _you_ have in _YOUR_ marriage viz OSF's , how have they helped _YOUR_ marriage, and exactly how do you think some of your boundaries might help other people who may be having problems with OSF's in their marriage?

That was / is the intended purpose of this thread.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Also I came across information that showed that he was treating her better than he was treating me. So at a time when he knew she was ****ing someone else, she gets the girlfriend treatment and I get the "just a friend" treatment.
> 
> *And from the messages that I read, she advised him to drop me because as far as she knew, I was avoiding sex with him.....
> 
> Now, there is no room in a committed exclusive relationship for an OSF like this one. So telling my fiance he needed to get rid of her or I would be leaving, was, IMO, was not an unreasonable request.*


:iagree:

In your case it seems that there was either a lack of proper boundaries and your husband exploited it or your husband just simply disregarded your feelings, his marital vows , whatever boundaries existed and did his own thing.

Whichever way it was, I can't say that you were unreasonable , controlling , or insecure in acting the way you did by giving his an ultimatum.
In fact ,I think you did a remarkable thing by respecting yourself and calling him on it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Then maybe _you're _with the wrong partner.
> 
> I've been sensitive to aspects like length of friendships, how deep it is such as family connections, mutual friends. My exH's had known his exgf since childhood, his parents knew and regularly socialised with her parents. In fact, I found her mother very gracious at the lunches and parties we went to. I am glad that my husband reigned in her behavior before anything really bad had happened.
> 
> ...


It seems you have a history of picking sh*tty, disrespectful men. I fail to see how taking a strong stance on OSF is going to solve the problem of you continuing to make commitments to cheating men.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> You have been married for over 15 years .
> I see from your past post that you have absolutely no problem with your wife having sex with other men, or threesomes , or the swinging lifestyle in_ YOUR_ marriage.


I am open to those things as a possibility (we have never tried any of them), but that is really a different subject entirely and I didn't want to hijack the thread. 



> Can you tell us what boundaries _you_ have in _YOUR_ marriage viz OSF's , how have they helped _YOUR_ marriage, and exactly how do you think some of your boundaries might help other people who may be having problems with OSF's in their marriage?


Personally, I have no problem if my wife has friends of any gender. I am gone for long periods of time through my work. If she wanted to cheat, she could do that very easily anyway. She wouldn't have to disguise it by meeting someone and pretending he was "just a friend". Banning OSFs would not change anything.

My wife's own boundaries are kind of strange. She doesn't mind me having an OSF as long as the friend was originally one of her friends, not my own. I haven't really ever pushed this issue, so I'm not sure how far I could.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> It seems you have a history of picking sh*tty, disrespectful men. I fail to see how taking a strong stance on OSF is going to solve the problem of you continuing to make commitments to cheating men.


I think it's more just the sign of the times. It's a relatively new thing to think of the opposite sex as just a friend without any limitations.

As far as your advising me to pick better men, could you tell me then what I should look out for.

These days my fiance tells me that he can't live without me and we don't have thosr problems any more. I'm just here venting and making an effort to understand this phenomenom better.

I was reading on another message board where a woman was noting how much her 20 something son and his friends get cheated on by women their age as they use this "just a friends" guise. So this problem is not limited to people who post on TAM.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Theseus said:


> My wife's own boundaries are kind of strange. She doesn't mind me having an OSF as long as the friend was originally one of her friends, not my own. I haven't really ever pushed this issue, so I'm not sure how far I could.


So effectively she is controlling you by choosing your friends, at least the female ones. 

Since I have experienced that even women who befriended me first have a way jumping the track, this boundary isn't foolproof for your wife's purposes either.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Theseus said:


> I am open to those things as a possibility (we have never tried any of them), but that is really a different subject entirely and I didn't want to hijack the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wel it's not a threadjack.
We are discussing OSF and what boundaries do you have regarding OSF's in your marriage.
If you are interested in swinging, threesomes , foursomes, hot wife complex and cuckholdery , there is a thread on it here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/58606-threesomes-so-fourth.html

There are many varied viewpoints on the subject, and maybe you can have a look.
However, if you are interested in that lifestyle, then you must have very solid BOUNDARIES and they must be policed and enforced. 

A basic rule of that lifestyle is that your partner/ wife should not have sex with any of her friends without your consent. That way it is supposed to minimize the possibility of an emotional bond between them developing , [ cheating ] without your knowledge .

Adherents to that lifestyle say that a married couple needs to be very open with each other about their feelings towards each other and about the actual sex during the swinging. So they trust each other implicitly. However, even though the trust is there, many couples _still_ experience infidelity, because one partner gets emotionally connected to another swinger/ sex partner.
They say this can prevented by both partners having veto powers over who the other partner has sex with, externally.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Whether you are in a monogamous marriage , open marriage ,same sex marriage or even if you are single and have a platonic relationship with someone of the opposite sex, there must be boundaries.
These boundaries must be agreed to and enforced for the relationship to thrive, else one or two persons will get hurt.

In your case, it seems that a power differential exist in favour of your wife in your marriage.
Why?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> In your case, it seems that a power differential exist in favour of your wife in your marriage.
> Why?


I was wondering this as well. The very fact that your wife has even one requirement for which women you can friends with means that she acknowledges that OSFs can present a problem to the couple.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think it's more just the sign of the times. It's a relatively new thing to think of the opposite sex as just a friend without any limitations.
> 
> As far as your advising me to pick better men, could you tell me then what I should look out for.
> 
> ...


Of course the problem isn't limited to people who post on TAM.

But your stories don't sound typical, or the norm, to me at all. Man after man blatantly and brazenly cavorting with female friends to your exclusion? Them staying friends with women who are disrespectful and dismissive to you? Why stay, or even be thinking about marrying, a man like that when you have so, so much more value than that? Even if every single woman on the planet disappeared you'd still be saddled with men of questionable character who treated you like dirt anyway. 

Each post your write is insightful, but it's not point a strong warning against OSF. It's a cautionary tale about hooking up, and staying too long with, bad partners. It makes me angry, for you!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FACT:
No one stores valuable treasures in open and unsecured location. They are stored in secure environments.
No one leaves a gun lying around the house , or on the car seat.

Why would or why should someone leave their most valuable asset, and treasure, their marriage exposed and vulnerable?

A marriage without enforced boundaries, or a " borderless marriage" is an oxymoron. In the marriage vows there exists a clause :
" _forsaking all others_ " to which people say " _I do_."

The idea that contact and interactions with the opposite sex outside of a marriage should be encouraged and not be controlled is obviously inconsistent with the concept of monogamous marriage.

Temptation never comes in the exact form we expected it to, neither at the exact time or place we thought it would or else it would not be temptation.

No marriage is immune to infidelity, but there are things that can be done to reduce the risk.

Seatbelt does not save lives, _but wearing it _, saves lives.
Boundaries do not prevent infidelity in marriages, but enforcing them , decreases the risk, significantly.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I, personally, have OSF. As does my husband. And there haven't been any issues with that thus far. I don't think every couple should have OSF. I know some family members who have fidelity issues, so I don't think they should have OSF. But as long as both members of the relationship are happy and they don't feel pressured to give up their friends, or put up with people they aren't comfortable with, I can't find any reason to object to OSF.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I, personally, have OSF. As does my husband. And there haven't been any issues with that thus far. I don't think every couple should have OSF. I know some family members who have fidelity issues, so I don't think they should have OSF. *But as long as both members of the relationship are happy and they don't feel pressured to give up their friends, or put up with people they aren't comfortable with, I can't find any reason to object to OSF.*


:iagree: fully, and I think its a very balanced approach. It mirrors what obtains in our marriage.

Thanks for sharing Created!

Are there any rules between you and your spouse regarding how both of you treat with OSF's?

What makes it work well in your marriage?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Of course the problem isn't limited to people who post on TAM.
> 
> But your stories don't sound typical, or the norm, to me at all. *Man after man blatantly and brazenly cavorting with female friends to your exclusion?* Them staying friends with women who are disrespectful and dismissive to you? Why stay, or even be thinking about marrying, a man like that when you have so, so much more value than that? Even if every single woman on the planet disappeared you'd still be saddled with men of questionable character who treated you like dirt anyway.
> 
> Each post your write is insightful, but it's not point a strong warning against OSF. It's a cautionary tale about hooking up, and staying too long with, bad partners. It makes me angry, for you!


I hear what you are saying. And I feel that way too. But I don't think they saw it that way and I don't think a lot of people do either.

What people see is consenting adults being just friends, sharing thoughts, giving advice and support to one another. Often, I hear, "he can be friends with who ever the hell he pleases."

So yes, I have offered to move on. And in response to that, my fiance has changed his habits and outlook immensely. In any case, I am glad that we had this problem sooner rather than later. And with the help of the discussions on this message board, I am not shy about the boundaries that I need to have observed.

ETA: Also remember particularly with my fiance, I have had access to a lot of messages shared between them asI have seen the e-mails, FB messages and text messages. There are probably a lot of people adversly affected by OSFs who don't have that level of detail and will never know. If I had not had the gut feelings that pushed me to dig, so to speak, I would only know what he told me: that is, she was just a friend. And that's probably where other people in my same situation have left it whether they stayed with the person or not.


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## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

So what would you guys say about a old flame
As OSF? Comfortable or not so much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> So what would you guys say about a old flame
> As OSF? Comfortable or not so much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she came to town and wanted to have lunch with my husband, I would be ok if he saw her once, even alone, but knowing him he would include me in the event. Not that this has happened. But my husband and I talked about this hypothetical scenario once. But continued friendship via email/phone/FB with someone he was once intimate with isn't ok. We're both in agreement about this. Once a relationship is over, it's over. We completely cut off contact and move on.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> So what would you guys say about a old flame
> As OSF? Comfortable or not so much?



Having an old flame as an OSF's is like smoking a cigarette in an oil refinery, you never know when its going to ignite.
It is very easy for an old flame to reignite.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I hear what you are saying. And I feel that way too. * But I don't think they saw it that way and I don't think a lot of people do either.*
> 
> What people see is consenting adults being just friends, sharing thoughts, giving advice and support to one another. Often, I hear, "he can be friends with who ever the hell he pleases."


The never do, until its too late. And oftentimes when they do, human beings tend to justify their actions.
They blameshift and the innocent party is made to feel as though the fault was theirs , even though they remained faithful.
Then the painful process of rebuilding starts, and the issue of OSF's come around, yet again..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree: fully, and I think its a very balanced approach. It mirrors what obtains in our marriage.
> 
> Thanks for sharing Created!
> 
> ...


The rules we have, is that we only spend time alone with those OSF is the other person is 100% comfortable with it. And these friends we have aren't people either of us has ever been attracted to, so there's really no concern for either of us being tempted. And, for us, we will trust the other person until we have a reason not to.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> So what would you guys say about a old flame
> As OSF? Comfortable or not so much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends. How do they behave and how much his and her life are integrated. I already gave the example of my exH and his exgf in an earlier post. We nipped her "look at me, I used to date him, too" routine early on.

I am amazed at how much throw the word "bf" and "gf" around these days. Any fly by night relationship now gets that label these days.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I am going to give two real scenarios , and I would like to have some feedback/ discussions on.

1] Wife is a professional Marriage Counsellor , Author , and Motivational speaker. Husband works with her and they work as a team, promoting her work , books, holding seminars and so on.
At a weekend function to promote one of her books he notices a strange man, not part of their team , nor social circle , constantly chatting with her , complementing her work and generally , " putting the moves" on her. He is of the opinion that she needs to tell him to back off.
Usually, after a presentation they meet with hundreds of people interested in her work.
Her husband mentions the strange man to her, and she gets defensive, because she doesn't see it that way, in any event the man was simply praising her for her work, and thinks maybe her husband is a bit over the top because of stress. She wonders why is he feeling so insecure? He isn't usually that way, and they have always been faithful to each other.
But he insists , they argue.

What do you think she should do?
What would you do if you were in her position or her husband's position?

2]Husband is a young man just starting a business, and has met with moderate success. Both he and his wife work as a team, so all information is shared, and he usually meets with his clients. 
He meets this wealthy , divorced , female client and she admires his work ethic and likes how he operates his business. She is the owner of a business.Over time they become friends and his wife also knows her. She is uncomfortable with their friendship, but she can't explain why ,logically.
The woman gives the husband the offer of a lifetime. She's willing to finance a business venture he had always dreamed of and it will significantly expand their [ he and his wife's ] business. His wife is livid instead of overjoyed ,when he tells her about the offer.

What do you think he should do?
What would you do if you were in his or his wife's position?

These two scenarios are not hypothetical. They both happened to different people in real life.
Anyone can answer, it is meant to generate some discussion.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I am going to give two real scenarios , and I would like to have some feedback/ discussions on.
> 
> 1] Wife is a professional Marriage Counsellor , Author , and Motivational speaker. Husband works with her and they work as a team, promoting her work , books, holding seminars and so on.
> At a weekend function to promote one of her books he notices a strange man, not part of their team , nor social circle , constantly chatting with her , complementing her work and generally , " putting the moves" on her. He is of the opinion that she needs to tell him to back off.
> ...


This should be a wake up call to her to take an honest and deep look into her relationship with the man. Then she should find out what about him her husband sees as suspect and address it. For instance if he is non-acknowledging of the husband this is a bad indication. If the husband ha never really met him then make sure they meet and afterwards determine if the husbands vibes are the same. At this point she should be prepared to go with the husbands view and drop the friendship if necessary. In this case I would not even consider this friendship but acquantances.



Caribbean Man said:


> 2]Husband is a young man just starting a business, and has met with moderate success. Both he and his wife work as a team, so all information is shared, and he usually meets with his clients.
> He meets this wealthy , divorced , female client and she admires his work ethic and likes how he operates his business. She is the owner of a business.Over time they become friends and his wife also knows her. She is uncomfortable with their friendship, but she can't explain why ,logically.
> The woman gives the husband the offer of a lifetime. She's willing to finance a business venture he had always dreamed of and it will significantly expand their [ he and his wife's ] business. His wife is livid instead of overjoyed ,when he tells her about the offer.
> 
> ...


In this case the wife knows the person and a friendship has developed which she is not comfortable with. Being business partners will escalate contact significantly and also intertwine their finances which may cause problems even if the friendship is fine. He needs to drop the oppourtinity.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> One of the the many hot potato issues here on TAM and in real life marriages is the issue of opposite sex friends.
> 
> In fact, there are numerous threads in the CWI section and I'm sure in a few other sections too, of marriages and relationships in trouble or one partner having trouble, because of opposite sex friends.
> There seem to be two opposing schools of thought. Those for and those against.
> ...


Wow. I agree. 

I didn't read all the other responses. I imagine there are many varying thoughts.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I am going to give two real scenarios , and I would like to have some feedback/ discussions on.
> 
> 1] Wife is a professional Marriage Counsellor , Author , and Motivational speaker. Husband works with her and they work as a team, promoting her work , books, holding seminars and so on.
> At a weekend function to promote one of her books he notices a strange man, not part of their team , nor social circle , constantly chatting with her , complementing her work and generally , " putting the moves" on her. He is of the opinion that she needs to tell him to back off.
> ...


When she's calmed down from the argument, she should an honest assessment of the other person's conduct. Since the husband normally isn't the jealous or possessive type, she should see what he's seeing that she's not. She should also look within herself to see if she's secretly being validated by that man's compliments and attention. I suspect she is. Maybe that's where the defensiveness comes from. In the future, she should find ways to end the man's compliments and attention without being unprofessional about it. 



Caribbean Man said:


> 2]Husband is a young man just starting a business, and has met with moderate success. Both he and his wife work as a team, so all information is shared, and he usually meets with his clients.
> He meets this wealthy , divorced , female client and she admires his work ethic and likes how he operates his business. She is the owner of a business.Over time they become friends and his wife also knows her. She is uncomfortable with their friendship, but she can't explain why ,logically.
> The woman gives the husband the offer of a lifetime. She's willing to finance a business venture he had always dreamed of and it will significantly expand their [ he and his wife's ] business. His wife is livid instead of overjoyed ,when he tells her about the offer.
> 
> ...


This sounds like it might have been something you experienced...is this an example from your own life? 

Women often have good intuition about other women. I've noticed this for years. There are subtle things women pick up on that men completely miss. There was an affair going on at one of the places I've worked. The women caught on to the subtle signs, but nearly all the men were surprised when it came out. 

I'm sure the financing is going to come with strings attached. She'd also have very seemingly legit reasons to have more contact with him...more business meetings with her, more private talks on the telephone, more reasons to go to industry conventions/conferences..more reasons to even travel together overseas staying at the same hotel. I would feel highly uncomfortable if I were the wife in this scenario. I would wonder if the divorcee was grooming my husband to be her MM. If I were the husband, I'd try to see things from my wife's perspective. Her concerns are valid. I'm sure it would be difficult to pass up on such a good offer, but what's more important, the business or the marriage?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Latigo said:


> For me it is more about preventing emotional bonding and intimacy than preventing men from making passes at my wife. Those things are my domain alone.


I'm a little late to this discussion but I want to highlight Latigo's statement above. This is exactly what it's all about.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

My apologies for the delay in responding. 
Yesterday was very hectic and last evening I had a date with someone special at the local film festival , and we dinner after.
That someone is my wife.

I appreciate the inputs into the scenarios I provided and I must say that we are all on the same wavelength.

Messon, I like your analysis of both scenarios. The first scenario I got from a marriage website belonging to the couple mentioned in the story. It actually happened to them and the wife said that even though what her husband was saying didn't make sense to her, she decided to listen to him and put it to the test at the next day's meeting .
She purposely put some distance between herself and that man. And guess what?
He somehow managed to show up nearby, making eye contact with her, everytime she moved to another group of people. She realized her husband was right.
She didn't notice before, because like Coffee Amore said in her post, she was being validated by this man's compliments, and felt he was innocent.
In reality, he was seeking her out, trying to get into her inner circle for his own reasons.
She spoke to him and immediately put an end to it. Of course he would deny everything , but most importantly, she recognized , and took appropriate action.
Of course she could have dismissed her husband's concerns, because in reality, his concern was based on just a haunch.
But she reasoned that even if her husband was wrong , the important thing was that she knew he had her back covered and was looking out for her. Their marriage was important to them both and it just wasn't worth it to have a stranger drive a wedge between them.
She had nothing to loose if she heeded her husband's advice.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> This sounds like it might have been something you experienced...is this an example from your own life?
> 
> Women often have good intuition about other women. I've noticed this for years. There are subtle things women pick up on that men completely miss. There was an affair going on at one of the places I've worked. The women caught on to the subtle signs, but nearly all the men were surprised when it came out.
> 
> I'm sure the financing is going to come with strings attached. She'd also have very seemingly legit reasons to have more contact with him...more business meetings with her, more private talks on the telephone, more reasons to go to industry conventions/conferences..more reasons to even travel together overseas staying at the same hotel. I would feel highly uncomfortable if I were the wife in this scenario. I would wonder if the divorcee was grooming my husband to be her MM. If I were the husband, I'd try to see things from my wife's perspective. Her concerns are valid. I'm sure it would be difficult to pass up on such a good offer, but what's more important, the business or the marriage?



Yes Coffe Amore.

You are 100% correct on both scores.
On your first response both you and Messon are on the same page .


On the second scenario, absolutely yes, it is an example of the early years of our marriage.
I was that young man eager to move forward , determined to seize whatever opportunity I got. In the shark infested business environment, I was the sardine.
" _Kissing goes by favour_ ."
I was eager to climb and I was willing to kiss a$$ of anybody, male or female, who could get me into the social circles where the movers and shakers in the industry fraternised.
Lol, if it was a male in this case , there wouldn't have been any problems with my wife!
Funny how life is.
I couldn't see what that divorcee wanted , all I could see is what I wanted , and didn't count the cost.
But my mother used to tell me that I should listen to my wife.
Women can be very intuitive, especially with regard to their loved ones, husbands and family members. These things affect _them_ directly.
But I didn't listen to my wife. I saw the opportunity to set up business in the Dominican Republic , and to further penetrate up the Caribbean and some parts of South America.
I saw BIG things.
I didn't even think of having to travel and stay in the same hotel rooms etc. I wasn't attracted to this woman .
Reality hit me when I was chatting with her secretary one day and she told me that I was a lucky guy because her boss really *liked* me. Then whenever she called home for me and my wife answered, she would ask for me by first name. Then another time she made a snide comment to my wife on the phone, and my wife was upset and cried.
Nothing pisses me off more than when someone disrespects my wife.
I am very protective of her, she always has my back.
I called that woman and told her to fcuk off.
Finally I had come to my senses.
Today , whenever she disapproves of anything I bow to her wishes. Experiences has taught me that eve though I _know_ that i'm right , it is not necessary to be always right, because what may be right today could be very wrong tomorrow when there is a different perspective.
Things change.
Business is important, but our marriage is even more important to me.
After all,we are both partners in this business,
And our marriage.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I'm a little late to this discussion but I want to highlight Latigo's statement above. This is exactly what it's all about.


:iagree:

The issue is not about trying to prevent a loved one from cheating.
People cheat because they want to , and nothing can stop them.
But having good boundaries is more about preventing outsiders from gaining access to inside your home and marriage.

Even if there is no cheating, outsiders tend to cause confusion and drive wedges between spouses.

The actual cheating most times is usually the end result of this unwelcome incursion.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes Coffe Amore.
> 
> You are 100% correct on both scores.
> On your first response both you and Messon are on the same page .
> ...


Your examples really highlight the importance of listening to your spouse. Your Mom is really correct they see things without any potential haze caused by compliments, expectations or other blinders. It surprises me that there seems to be an inclination to reject the advice of our best friends and the people we should respect the most. Considering that we chose to marry them over others but yet discount there advice is surprising. We need to learn to swallow our pride to truly consider their point of view. They may not be right but we owe it to our spouses to seriously consider their thoughts that probably took a lot of effort to reveal the situation as they see it. And even if we believe they are incorrect we should consider deffering to their assessment just to demonstrate to them that they are the priority of our lives. What is one friend compared to a lifetime with a spouse?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> Your examples really highlight the importance of listening to your spouse. Your Mom is really correct they see things without any potential haze caused by compliments, expectations or other blinders. *It surprises me that there seems to be an inclination to reject the advice of our best friends and the people we should respect the most. Considering that we chose to marry them over others but yet discount there advice is surprising. We need to learn to swallow our pride to truly consider their point of view. They may not be right but we owe it to our spouses to seriously consider their thoughts that probably took a lot of effort to reveal the situation as they see it. And even if we believe they are incorrect we should consider deffering to their assessment just to demonstrate to them that they are the priority of our lives. What is one friend compared to a lifetime with a spouse?*


"._.And even if we believe they are incorrect we should consider deffering to their assessment just to demonstrate to them that they are the priority of our lives_.."

:iagree:x 100%

I think beside our own pride, after living a few years together , sometimes we begin to take our spouses for granted because we _think_ we know every aspect of them.

If they disagree with us , we think we know exactly where its coming from, their insecurity.
But if my wife feels insecure about an OSF situation, its my duty to her to make her feel secure. We are all human and have our insecure moments. I tend to think that if the roles were reversed, I too would feel insecure even though the situation is entirely above board. 
I would hope that she would at least take my feelings into consideration and act accordingly.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I am going to give two real scenarios , and I would like to have some feedback/ discussions on.
> 
> 1] Wife is a professional Marriage Counsellor , Author , and Motivational speaker. Husband works with her and they work as a team, promoting her work , books, holding seminars and so on.
> At a weekend function to promote one of her books he notices a strange man, not part of their team , nor social circle , constantly chatting with her , complementing her work and generally , " putting the moves" on her. He is of the opinion that she needs to tell him to back off.
> ...


This one is easy. She should back her husband's judgement. He's acting out of character (bolded), which is reason enough that she should take notice.

My wife and I are a team. We have each other's backs. Our different perspectives allow one spouse to see things the other may not. (This happened IRL. Thanks to The Wisdom of TAM™, amongst other things, I backed my wife's judgement) 

This couple are literally a team. You have to trust your team mates. The strange guy is one of hundreds they apparently meet. He should mean nothing to her. Any argument over him is by definition an argument over nothing.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> *My wife and I are a team. We have each other's backs. Our different perspectives allow one spouse to see things the other may not. (This happened IRL. Thanks to The Wisdom of TAM™, amongst other things, I backed my wife's judgement) *
> 
> This couple are literally a team. You have to trust your team mates. The strange guy is one of hundreds they apparently meet. He should mean nothing to her. Any argument over him is by definition an argument over nothing.



I like how you put it when you said _" My wife and I are a team ."_ I think even though every marriage is different , and people would obviously have different tolerances and boundaries regarding OSF's , this one can be a
" sticky" for every couple.

_The husband and wife are supposed to be a team._

Using that paradigm it would be difficult for accusations of jealousy, insecurity and so on, to arise. Not saying that they won't arise, but the issue would be framed in a different context that might enable a more amicable resolution.

IMO, problems arise when one voices concern, the other begins to defend because they perceive it as an attack on their freedom / integrity . Their defence is usually in the form of a counter attack / accusation or jealousy and insecurity. If allowed to run its natural course to conclusion, the accused party ends up with negative feelings, the OSF takes the side of the accused, their relationship deepens, causing more problems in the marriage.
If the OSF is the manipulative type, things get extremely complicated, almost impossible to solve. The dynamic changes and its now two against one. The OSF and the husband , against the wife or vice versa.

Before that happens, it may be wise if the " original team "take a "time out ," regroup, and get back to the original game plan.
But a lot of energy is consumed in those "_ I am right, you are wrong _" approach , and even though the OSF is not the problem, how the issue is handled inevitably makes it a problem.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> _The husband and wife are supposed to be a team._
> 
> Using that paradigm it would be difficult for accusations of jealousy, insecurity and so on, to arise. Not saying that they won't arise, but the issue would be framed in a different context that might enable a more amicable resolution.
> 
> IMO, problems arise when one voices concern, the other begins to defend because they perceive it as an attack on their freedom / integrity . Their defence is usually in the form of a counter attack / accusation or jealousy and insecurity.


My wife is neither jealous or insecure. I'd like to think part of the reason is that I don't give her cause to be. When she says that a person bothers her, it's time to listen closely.

Wife: Don't you realise she monopolises you in conversation?
Me: Not really. I just see her as being friendly.
Wife: She literally turned her back on me when she talked to you
Me: That's plain disrespectful...

To me turning her back on my wife is an un-ignorable red flag. It's blatant, though I genuinely didn't see it at the time. I could see my wife's perspective immediately, which surprised her (thanks TAM). I just replied "Well Babe, we both trust each other's judgement, don't we?"

Somebody earlier in the thread mentioned it's significant when a third person interjects themselves between spouses. That's useful and something I'll look out for in future.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

If you are married, you are never jealous of third party relationships with your spouse. At worst, you are concerned.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> My wife is neither jealous or insecure. I'd like to think part of the reason is that I don't give her cause to be. When she says that a person bothers her, it's time to listen closely.
> 
> Wife: Don't you realise she monopolises you in conversation?
> Me: Not really. I just see her as being friendly.
> ...


:iagree:
See now, that's the point. You _listened to your wife_ even though you didn't see it from her point of view. 
A lot of people when faced with the same situation , don't , and that's where the third party begin's to wedge themselves between spouses. 
To me when that happens, if its allowed to slide then it would be extremely difficult to pull things back.

This is what I had in mind when I started this thread.
We have looked at this problem in the past on TAM and IRL from two opposing positions. Both positions are right because people usually speak on these matters based on their own experiences.
It is what affects them personally.
I was thinking maybe , if we were to frame the question differently , then we might be able to think outside of the box.
Instead of simply arguing why OSF's are bad or why they are harmless , we could probably look at;

_" How do you / can we, prevent OSF's in marriages from becoming a threat to a marriage?"_

The OSF issue is one every marriage will face , because human beings are social creatures. Some might argue that compatible couples need not fear OSF because the marriage is solid.

My youngest BIL got married at age 24 to a girl one year younger than him. Both ot them rarely ever argued , he was a very sociable person , so was she. They both loved life , hanging out with friends, drinking till they both got drunk etc.
He inherited a house, so he didn't have mortgage or rent to pay
He had a good paying job, worked about 100 miles offshore on a Gas platform. She was also gainfully employed.
Due to his job, he would be at sea for two - three weeks and home for two. Their social circle was large,they were happy.
They both had many OSF's.

She had a guy friend that was interested in her ,and she shrugged him off, because she was married.However , he still hung out in their circle drinking, etc.
But when her husband was offshore, she still hung out with her friends, this guy friend included. I mentioned it to him , but he dismissed my observation and laughed.
They started hanging out one to one ,simple things like going to the grocery , market etc., again I mentioned it to him , and he was not too concerned.
Just from their interactions, I knew they were having sex. She got pregnant for him, but her husband never suspected, until months after the child was born. Someone spotted them in the OSF's car in a compromising position.
Everything went downhill from there.
DNA tests proved that the child belonged to the OSF.

What went wrong in their marriage?
Theirs was a marriage made in heaven. She was not a promiscuous girl before marriage , she came from a good family, very pretty girl,not a care in the world.

Their marriage IMO , lacked proper boundaries.
They never knew what hit them, until it was too late.
Four years after a fairytale wedding, they got divorced.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> If you are married, you are never jealous of third party relationships with your spouse. At worst, you are concerned.


Can you explain this a little further?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm late and this is totally off topic...(feel free to ignore)...but back a few pages...just wanted to say that as a bi-sexual woman, yes my husband would have a problem with me having certain female friends. Basically the rule is, you can't be friends with anyone who is into you or vice versa. So even if it starts out just friends, if they start getting into you, it is over.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Can you explain this a little further?


I hate it when a spouse is accused of being jealous of a friendship that their partner has. A married person has made a huge investment in the relationship and for others to dismiss genuine concern as jealousy is discounting what someone sacrifices to be in that marriage.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm late and this is totally off topic...(feel free to ignore)...but back a few pages...just wanted to say that as a bi-sexual woman, yes my husband would have a problem with me having certain female friends. Basically the rule is, you can't be friends with anyone who is into you or vice versa. So even if it starts out just friends, if they start getting into you, it is over.


So basically the rule could be:

_ " don't be friends with anyone who wants to have sex with you."
_
Yes?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> "._.And even if we believe they are incorrect we should consider deffering to their assessment just to demonstrate to them that they are the priority of our lives_.."
> 
> :iagree:x 100%
> 
> ...


:iagree:

It's unwise to ignore the feelings of our SOs.

When I first started dating my SO, we were both friends with one of his ex-GFs. Although she was in another relationship, and had actually introduced us to each other, she seemed incapable of respecting the fact that we were a couple. There were constant flirty texts between them, and she was forever reminiscing to me about their short time together. In the end SO and I had to either end our relationship or end the friendship with her. We chose the latter.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Wanted to continue the conversation in order to cover some more ground. I realized something from Cosmo's last post. 
A lot of communication between people actually happen online.
texts , instant messaging ,emails and so on.

I thought that we should probably have a look at online OSF's and what might be considered good, normal , healthy adult interactions as opposed to cyber cheating and where should the line be drawn.

IMO, it is much easier for infidelity to flourish in cyberspace than in real life.
In cyberspace , people can adopt personas and project images of themselves custom tailored to another person's emotional needs. It is difficult to verify what a person really is in cyberspace because the 
_" background noises "_ of everyday life are filtered out, words and emoticons are all that is needed to make an impression.

Sometimes we all go through difficult periods in our life , and we may need some sort of healthy,external emotional validation.Sometimes we share details of our lives with others ,like projects we may be pursuing , hobbies , educational and career interests , kids and even the vagaries of life itself.
Even though we are married, we are still social beings.

It is absurd to think that one should not accept that sort of validation from an online OSF . 
However , it can create additional stress on a marriage if not managed properly , and yes, it usually leads to both emotional and physical affairs.

Online Cheating Usually Leads to Physical Encounters | Psych Central News

So, what are some guidelines for managing online opposite sex friendships? What are the " red flags " that can tell if our online friendship has crossed the line into cheating territory? 
In reality those lines are very blurred , because its cyberspace.But I believe in making your conscience your guide.
Here are a few suggestions.


*1]When its secretive.*
If you are deleting your texts, I'M's , Facebook Chats history and emails — either to her or from her — that's a red flag. Because by deleting them, you are guessing that your spouse would be upset if she read them, and you are covering up something. 

*2]If there is a sexual agenda.*
If you notice that your correspondence with this person feeds your sexual fantasies (because an affair is often about sexual fantasy), then you are probably in dangerous waters. If the communications consist of subtle sexual overtones, watch out. If it feels like foreplay in anyway, that’s not good.

*3]If you're spending a considerable amount of time talking to him (her).*
A person needs to consider not only the content of the messages sent back and forth but also the amount of them. For example, if you are emailing a "friend" 15 times a day, that's an extreme, even if the content is about Sponge Bob Squarepants.

*4] If you are rationalizing.*
"_He is just a friend_," is a statement that you don't say to yourself when you're involved in innocent communication. Do you feel the need to justify a very safe friendship? No. It's obvious to you and to your mate that the companionship is completely appropriate. 

*5]5. If it's meeting your personal needs.*
If you are getting your intimacy needs met in an online relationship or with a co-worker with whom you playfully banter, you might stop to ask yourself why. Be especially careful if you’re sharing intimate sentiments with that person that you don’t share with your husband, or if you feel like your online companion understands you in a way that your spouse doesn't. Be on guard if you are getting fed in any way by him or her that you don't at home.


These are just a few , anyone else can feel free to comment or add more as they see fit.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Realized my post made no sense and I need to read better.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> And I've learned - I cannot expect my husband to provide those interactions - he won't suddenly become an A personality who is surrounded by friends whom them I can interact with. So - I seek out those interactions myself.
> 
> I'm sure that wouldn't be something else someone else would approve of, but it seems to work for us. I don't expect my husband to become someone he isn't, and to fulfill all my social needs, which has made me (and no doubt him) far happier.


Firstly I think you misunderstood point #5 you referred to.

This is what I said:

" 5] *If it's meeting your personal needs.*

If you are getting your *intimacy needs* met in an online relationship or with a co-worker with whom you playfully banter, you might stop to ask yourself why. *Be especially careful if you’re sharing intimate sentiments with that person that you don’t share with your husband, or if you feel like your online companion understands you in a way that your spouse doesn't. *Be on guard if you are getting fed in any way by him or her that you don't at home."




I think that a huge part of marriage is meeting each other's needs.
Some needs are harder for one spouse to meet than others , but that is one of the ultimate goal of a marriage, meeting each other's needs as best as we can.
Going outside the marriage to have needs met by an OSF has the potential to cause problems.
Of course we are all social beings and we socialise with others because of that need.
But if our spouse cannot fulfil our* intimacy needs* , then that can be a serious problem.

Obviously ,social interaction with other people is a need that can only be fulfilled by other people. However where it crosses the line is when these social interactions begin to fulfil an intimate , emotional need.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Apparently, my reading comprehension needs improvement, or I need to not TAM while doing five other things at a time. 

In either case, I've edited my post above accordingly. I'll start my own thread sometime I want to go there to rant about the husband's friendlessness.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Starstarfish said:


> Apparently, my reading comprehension needs improvement, or I need to not TAM while doing five other things at a time.
> 
> *In either case, I've edited my post above accordingly. I'll start my own thread sometime I want to go there to rant about the husband's friendlessness*.


do you think this makes him susceptible to inappropriate friendships with women. My fiance was transferred here a few years ago. So early in our relationship but after I knew about his "friend", I noticed one evening he said that she was his only friend in this city -- after being here for 18 months. I was right that he had recently spoken to her... as per an FB chat transcript.

My attitude to this kind of situation is "go out and find some more friends."


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Apparently, my reading comprehension needs improvement, or I need to not TAM while doing five other things at a time.
> 
> In either case, I've edited my post above accordingly. I'll start my own thread sometime I want to go there to rant about the husband's friendlessness.


Ok, 
Sorry about that, but when I read your post some of it did seem confusing to me. But it happens to me sometimes, lol, just like you I am doing TAM and a few other things at the same time.
But it's not an "_ indictable offence!_"
We all know how that goes.

If you want to rant about your H's attitude on the thread , feel free. I don't consider it a threadjack, as long as it stays within the topic of OSF's, or is at least ,remotely connected to it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> do you think this makes him susceptible to inappropriate friendships with women. My fiance was transferred here a few years ago. So early in our relationship but after I knew about his "friend", I noticed one evening he said that she was his only friend in this city -- after being here for 18 months. I was right that he had recently spoken to her... as per an FB chat transcript.
> 
> My attitude to this kind of situation is "go out and find some more friends."


NTA, 
Can I ask you a question?
I was on another thread with this subject that is connected to the topic we're discussing, but I didn't to hijack the thread.

What are your views on flirting?
What do you consider as flirting?
Can any good come out of it , or is it just bad news all around?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> NTA,
> Can I ask you a question?
> I was on another thread with this subject that is connected to the topic we're discussing, but I didn't to hijack the thread.
> 
> ...


I mentioned on the flirting thread that making remarks that make people feel good for the moment is nice. I gave two examples. 

But making innuendos, double entendres with someone who already has a partner or when you have a partner is simply out.

so looking at the messages between my fiance and his friend, I would not even classify it as flirting. she was rude to him sometimes -- calling him ******* in some texts.

She was direct in asking questions about me and he would answer them. ie, after a date that he and I had and of course, he told her about it, she asked whether I spent the night or not.

He one time tried to defend himself by saying "isn't this what friends do, talk about their dates?" my response was that since he liked to remind me -- and her -- about how smart he is, he should have seen early on that despite her insisting that she was "just a friend", she was also competitive against the relationship that he had with me. 

And he also said it once, "I guess she's one of those types who gets competitive when you start dating someone else." He has since said he does not remember that conversation with me. 

I think when people have healthy boundaries, they don't always have to think about their words and actions.

It's only people who want it both ways and then want everyone else to "understand" them that you have to be so clear and pedantic about the boundaries.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I mentioned on the flirting thread that making remarks that make people feel good for the moment is nice. I gave two examples.
> 
> But making innuendos, double entendres with someone who already has a partner or when you have a partner is simply out.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
Yup, that's^^^the nature of the beast.
Its a type of cake-eating, bordering on selfishness.

I also agree with the first part of your posts on what is inappropriate flirting.
I think a lot of it comes down to intent.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

So I had an " experience " recently that I thought I'd share with you all, but I would definitely like some input on it.
If you got an opportunity like this , what would you do , and why?

Recently a female friend / business associate of mine invited me to the experience of a lifetime. She's Columbian , and married to a man I know ,but her husband works overseas. 
She invited me on a backpacking trip from Columbia , through Peru , then to Bolivia across to Brazil and then to Venezuela.
To me , what is attractive about this trip is that it is done by hiking , hitchiking , and public transport. Also I would get the opportunity to see places I always wanted to see. Machu Picchu in the Peruvian Mountains ,the Iguazú falls on the Brazil - Argentina border , one of the widest waterfall in the world , and many other natural wonders and historical sites of South America.

My wife would also love to go, but she is definitely not back packing. She's not that adventurous. She wouldn't mind much if I really wanted to go with this woman and her group, she trusts me that much. She doesn't know the others that we would meet in Columbia. Obviously , my friend's husband doesn't mind she going on the trip, that is her lifestyle. She travels a lot like that and they have no kids. I can't say for sure that he knows she invited me.

I would really like to go , but I don't think it is appropriate for me to do so. Even though my wife doesn't mind because she's been on quite a few trips with her group of girlfriends.
So I'm not going.
If a guy friend had invited me , then definitely I would go.

So I just thought I'd share and hear your views.
If you had an opportunity like this , what would you do , and why?

Please note that I'm not saying my decision is right or wrong. It's just my opinion.

Anyone else ever had similar opportunity?
How did it work out?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Regarding my STBXW, her overt flirting was all too apparent in her FB postings to both of her other men, all while we were still domiciled together, sleeping and having sex in the same bed together, and supposedly just living "happily ever after!" Well, at least from my personal perspective anyway!

I only discovered all of this several months into our "trial separation," not only through these posts of hers but also through her cell phone/texting records which amply provided her calling habits and travel timelines in which she was making her roadtrips to see these guys under "justifiable circumstances," aka "business trips!

And judging from the overtly flirtaceous content of her posts to them, she seemed to be the one who was inviting them to pull her panties down for her, all while I totally loved her, and firmly believed that we had the near-perfect marriage together!


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Anyone else ever had similar opportunity?
> How did it work out?


I'm always kind of hesitant to post on this forum because I'm not currently married, but this one dragged me out of lurking 

I think it was maybe 6 months after I married that I went on what was supposed to be an almost year-long trip around the world without my (now ex-)husband. The back story is kind of involved, but the short version is: I wasn't going to cancel my plans and he didn't want to come with me, so we agreed that I should go on my own. It ended up being about 5 months apart because he decided to surprise me and joined me for the last half of the trip.

Slight difference from your situation in that the majority of my trip I was going to be travelling solo. However, the part that my ex did NOT join me for was an organized overland expedition. I didn't know anybody in the group ahead of time, but it was reasonable to expect that most of the group would be singletons or groups of friends with the occasional couple thrown in.

For the most part it worked out quite well. We would text each other daily, email whenever I could find internet access and try to do a phone call about once a week. For the last 6 weeks or so we basically had no contact with each other though. My cell phone died and I was in a part of the world where long distance phone calls were prohibitively expensive and reliable email was non-existent. That definitely created some insecurity for both us.

The OSF drama (which skirted pretty close to the edge of an EA) came from one man on the trip with whom I had an immediate and strong mutual attraction and connection. He backed off as soon as he learned that I was married, and I was completely committed to my marriage and never entertained the idea of acting on that attraction. In the confines of the expedition though, there was only so much that we could do to avoid each other. It also didn't help that neither of us really connected well with anyone else in the group - if we ever wanted anything more than small talk, it was each other or nothing. It was definitely challenging having to live in very close proximity to each other for 5 months. 

To answer the obvious question that's going to come up: no, I never told my husband about the OSF. With the length of time we were going to be apart, we knew it would be inevitable that there would be attractions and flirtations. We had agreed ahead of time that we would only talk about these if we were seriously considering a PA. 

In your situation, CM, if it was you and the woman travelling with only each other, I would definitely say no. However, in a group situation, it's not so cut and dried. It would depend on several factors, but it wouldn't be an automatic no for me.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

It really sounds like a great trip but I wouldn't go, and not just because it's an OSF. My H and I take all our trips together. We're both more comfortable that way. He's never expressed a desire to have an all-boys trip and I've never wanted to take an all-girls trip. We each hang out with our same sex friends locally but just don't go out of town.

If it were me, though, I think I'd become more adventurous in order to go on the trip with my H because it sounds like a great opportunity. But you mentioned a group. Will it be a group the whole time or will you and OSF spend part of the trip alone? Because as a wife, that latter part would bug me.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> The OSF drama (which skirted pretty close to the edge of an EA) came from one man on the trip with whom I had an immediate and strong mutual attraction and connection. He backed off as soon as he learned that I was married, and I was completely committed to my marriage and never entertained the idea of acting on that attraction. In the confines of the expedition though, there was only so much that we could do to avoid each other. It also didn't help that neither of us really connected well with anyone else in the group - if we ever wanted anything more than small talk, it was each other or nothing. It was definitely challenging having to live in very close proximity to each other for 5 months.
> .................................................................
> 
> In your situation, CM, if it was you and the woman travelling with only each other, I would definitely say no. However, in a group situation, it's not so cut and dried. It would depend on several factors, but it wouldn't be an automatic no for me.


Thanks for your post!
Yes, your story mirrors mine.
My wife and I have no kids and we sometimes travel separately. She travels with my mom and her girlfriends.

In this trip however, my friend and I would have been travelling part of the trip in Columbia with her alone, apart from the group, staying at bed & breakfast type inns etc. for a few days , until we met with the others close to the border.

Its not a large group, and most likely its every man for himself. No " chaperone" stuff, lol! 

The entire trip would have taken about three months.

But I think I sensed that being in her company , and having to depend on her for survival because she knows the countries and their cultures very well , [ she's done the trip already] may have opened too many possibilities.

Funny thing is , that my wife and her " crew " would be heading to South America [Venezuela, Suriname & French Guianas ] next year for their annual trip. But they're staying in hotels and doing the " tourist " [shopping and beach] thing.
LOL,not my idea of adventure.

Your round the world back packing trip sounds like it was very exciting!
Stuff like that I dream of doing just like you did.

Thanks for sharing your story, and I look forward to reading more posts from you!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MambaZee said:


> It really sounds like a great trip but I wouldn't go, and not just because it's an OSF. My H and I take all our trips together. We're both more comfortable that way. He's never expressed a desire to have an all-boys trip and I've never wanted to take an all-girls trip. We each hang out with our same sex friends locally but just don't go out of town.
> 
> If it were me, though, I think I'd become more adventurous in order to go on the trip with my H because it sounds like a great opportunity. But you mentioned a group. Will it be a group the whole time or will you and OSF spend part of the trip alone? Because as a wife, that latter part would bug me.


Yes,
It would be alone part of the way and with the group.
The group is not large , maybe just five or six. I'm not sure because its not very organized . She's an adventurous person like me.

My wife on the other hand likes adventure, but _that_ type of adventure.

But I agree with your perspective , because if roles were reversed, I would be _very_ concerned.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> But I agree with your perspective , because if roles were reversed, I would be _very_ concerned.


At least you're thoughtful enough to look at it from both sides. 

Some years back, H went out of town with female coworker since they were both interviewing for the same job. Money was tight so he asked if I would mind if they shared a hotel room (double beds). Well, DUH, yeah, I'd mind, dummy!  I asked him if he'd mind if I slept in the same hotel room with a male coworker, and then he got it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> To answer the obvious question that's going to come up: no, I never told my husband about the OSF. With the length of time we were going to be apart, we knew it would be inevitable that there would be attractions and flirtations. We had agreed ahead of time that we would only talk about these if we were seriously considering a PA.
> 
> In your situation, CM, if it was you and the woman travelling with only each other, I would definitely say no. However, in a group situation, it's not so cut and dried. It would depend on several factors, but it wouldn't be an automatic no for me.


Can I ask a question?

What was the reasoning behind you and your husband agreeing not to talk about the OSF on the trip?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MambaZee said:


> At least you're thoughtful enough to look at it from both sides.
> 
> Some years back, H went out of town with female coworker since they were both interviewing for the same job. Money was tight so he asked if I would mind if they shared a hotel room (double beds). *Well, DUH, yeah, I'd mind, dummy!  I asked him if he'd mind if I slept in the same hotel room with a male coworker, and then he got it. *


This just made me laugh!
We human beings are good at fooling ourselves.:rofl:
We always like to think that we're infallibe,despite tons of evidence to the contrary, until we actually fall.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM...my thinking is, that if this is indeed the trip of a lifetime for you, why didn't you plan it out yourself?

I think there should not be changes in plans and big vacation plans made, just because our friends (or even relatives sometimes) are asking us to join them.

If it really is that important to you, you will have made the plans yourself on your own timelines.

My H used to live in another state, and he keeps telling me he wants to take me to that state to see it, as it is so beautiful (New Mexico). He has mentioned this several times over the past 10 years. I figure "sure, I want to see it...if you plan it, we will go". I'm not going to plan it because I wouldn't pick NM as my first vacation choice, so when I'm thinking of vacation plans, I'm thinking Hawaii!

My H knows this. He hasn't ever acted like it is a big deal we haven't gone.

Then recently one of his best guy friends was planning a trip to NM with his wife and kids and invited us. My H was all "oh boy, now an opportunity to go, we should go with them".

I'm like "I'll pass, but you are free to go".

I'm not going to hop on board and spend money on a vacation just because his friends happen to be going somewhere he wants to take me to. If HE planned a trip for US where he was going to show me around like he always said he was going to do...I would be more than happy to go on that trip and spend it with him and see everything. 

If it was that important to him, he would have planned the trip himself years ago. 

He didn't go with the friends.

We are going to Hawaii next weekend, however. Whoop!

I know that doesn't actually apply to your story directly, but hopefully you can see what I mean. Your dream trip should be planned by you, and should be all about you.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> CM...my thinking is, that if this is indeed the trip of a lifetime for you, why didn't you plan it out yourself?
> 
> I think there should not be changes in plans and big vacation plans made, just because our friends (or even relatives sometimes) are asking us to join them.
> 
> ...


I understand and agree with you faithful. But the problem with this type of trip is that its done on foot,hitchiking and so on, and some parts of the territory is dangerous. But IMO, that's what makes it exciting!
lol, this was something I used to do when I was single. Many times we got into some sort of trouble.
I even have scars on my body from " close encounters."

I don't know that part of the continent well.
But I may get another opportunity. I'm presently trying to get some of my guy friends to do it.
BTW,
Best wishes on you and your husband's vacation!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I understand the back-packing part of it...but still, it doesn't really matter...my point was that just because your friend is doing this, when YOU are ready to plan YOUR dream trip then it will be the right trip. I also understand your wife won't want to go, either way. I hope you do find some guy friends for this!

By the way, there are many world wide backpacking meet up groups where you could find a (male) travel partner, even if your guy friends don't go.

Thanks for the well wishes, we will have fun for sure! Wish we were going further south, like Tobago or Trinidad.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> If you had an opportunity like this , what would you do , and why?


What you did, and for the same reasons.lo

The part of this Iike is this: you had an uncomfortable feeling about this when stacked up against your personal martial boundaries and made a decision based on that. So many stories we see here start with something like this where the person says, "But I really wanted to go and I never thought anything like this would happen."

Some folks might call this silly. I call it safe-guarding your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> What was the reasoning behind you and your husband agreeing not to talk about the OSF on the trip?


To address your earlier post, it was a fantastic trip! Absolutely a once in a lifetime opportunity. I visited 26 countries on 4 continents over 11 months!

With the added details you've given, I would agree in your situation that it wouldn't be appropriate for you to go. That sort of travel brings about a forced intimacy that can be hard to step back from.

The "don't ask don't tell" agreement in my case went both ways. It covered anything that went on with him at home while I was away as well. Due to the length of time apart, we accepted it as inevitable that there would be attractions. A temporary emotional attachment to someone else was not something that was a deal-breaker for either of us. However, we didn't see any benefit that would come from torturing each other with the details. 

We had drawn the line at physical contact and we trusted each other to enforce that boundary. If we found ourselves in a situation where we were thinking about crossing that line, then we were to discuss it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> To address your earlier post, it was a fantastic trip! Absolutely a once in a lifetime opportunity. I visited 26 countries on 4 continents over 11 months!
> 
> With the added details you've given, I would agree in your situation that it wouldn't be appropriate for you to go. That sort of travel brings about a forced intimacy that can be hard to step back from.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response.

I find it is an interesting arrangement.
How did it work out?

I'm enquiring because in your first post I think you mentioned that you were no longer married.
Do you think that this _" don't ask , don't tell "_ sort of arrangement helped or hurt your marriage relationship?

If you got married or found yourself in a long term relationship again perhaps ,in the future, do the think the same rule can apply or is it that the dynamic which existed between you and your husband was unique to him & you only?

Hope you don't mind me asking!
If you're uncomfortable speaking about it on this forum , then I fully understand. 
But I guarantee you that your response will help others .


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't mind the questions.

To be clear, the arrangement was only for our time apart. It didn't apply when we were living together. 

I'm still friends with my ex and we've had some pretty extensive postmortem discussions about what went wrong with our marriage. Neither of us thought that the time apart or the OSFs contributed at all to our split. We were together for another 4 years after the trip. The two main reasons for the divorce were his unwillingness to deal with some long-standing emotional issues, and our inability to reach a compromise on basic logistics like where to live. We were from different countries and had met/married while we were both living overseas.

We both knew that the other had one person they had grown close to, but we knew that all contact had ended so we left it at that. Neither of us was interested in knowing more. There definitely needs to be a very high degree of trust and commitment from both partners for it to work. It does depend a great deal on the personality types involved as well. We are both very independent-minded and were very much still individuals within the marriage.

I just came out of another long term relationship and it's not an arrangement that would have worked at all in that situation. The dynamic between us was completely different and it just wouldn't have been a healthy direction for us to go.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> To it was a fantastic trip! Absolutely a once in a lifetime opportunity. I visited 26 countries on 4 continents over 11 months!


Good Lord what an epic trip! Not many generations ago the world's greatest explorers couldn't match this. We're lucky to be alive in this age. Congratulations.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Good Lord what an epic trip! Not many generations ago the world's greatest explorers couldn't match this. We're lucky to be alive in this age. Congratulations.


:iagree:
Actually, it _is_ one of my dreams.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> I don't mind the questions.
> 
> To be clear, the arrangement was only for our time apart. It didn't apply when we were living together.
> 
> ...


I think its good that both of you were honest with each other. I don't think I could function at that level, but I understand your situation, from different countries and the stresses of jobs etc.

But a lot of people are just plain selfish and dishonest with respect to the ODF issue. A lot of cake eating takes place without consideration for their spouse's feelings.
They justify their actions, and so even go so far as to blame their cheating on their spouse. [ I'm not saying that was your case.]

Your story sounds like my dear cousin's.

She got married young . She took up teaching part time whilst doing her research which took her to all different corners of the globe. Sometimes she's working in Japan, South Korea , next she down here in the Caribbean doing research and so on.
Of course her marriage suffered. Within three years, they were divorced.
But it was amicable , they had no kids and she took most of the blame. At least she was honest.

She got remarried some years after , they decided to settle down in Chicago and now she lectures in a University .

Best wishes and I hope you find the right person to share your life with...
Someone who loves life and adventure just like you!


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

Wiserforit said:


> Good Lord what an epic trip! Not many generations ago the world's greatest explorers couldn't match this. We're lucky to be alive in this age. Congratulations.


Thanks  Epic is right. It was most definitely a defining period of my life.



Caribbean Man said:


> Best wishes and I hope you find the right person to share your life with...
> Someone who loves life and adventure just like you!


Thanks. Your cousin's story definitely sounds familiar! 

I'm a nomad at heart and have visited close to 60 countries now. I just need to find someone who can keep up!!


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Actually, it _is_ one of my dreams.


Yeah, I had been doing it for three month segments just about every year until we had kids. With four traveling instead of one, it's mighty expensive now compared to when I was single or just the two of us. 

We are gearing up for a five month span overseas and I have more or less a continuous hall pass for the duration. I have to admit there are certain elements of it that appeal to me. I'd rather buy a bulldozer but the wife really wants to see her family, so she's thrown down the gauntlet. I have this wad of cash in an envelope I went to buy this dozer with two days ago and was too late. She says it is a sign. Already bought chocolates for gifts yesterday. I hope another dozer comes up on craigslist soon. Put the kaybosh on this trip before its too late.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> So if things get sticky between my wife and I next year, and she begins to get suspicious of one of my OSF friends, what am I supposed to do?
> Should I dismiss her feelings as insecure because of our other marital problem ? My perception may be that they are not connected.
> But I am in a marriage comprising my wife and I so in reality, her feelings should count for something.
> IMO, the solution is, take her feelings into consideration, put the OSF on ice and until we deal with our problems and are in a stronger place.


When in doubt, choose the wife. Do not hurt the wife's feelings to spare the OW's feelings. The vow made was to the wife. OW will "get it". If OW was fishing for A, she will know she's busted. If she was truly innocent, she will understand and respect the wife's feelings. Guys, we women know how that emotional stuff works so if one of your OSF says "Oh! Your wife is just a suspicious shrew!", then she needs to be cut loose.


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