# Wife infidelity



## Mtg2584

Hello, wife and I have been married for 10 years. We are In our late 30s. We have 3 young children together. Recently I found out that at the start of covid she befriended a colleague. When covid shut down the workplace they started texting daily with good mornings and general discussion. That somehow turned into sexting and picture exchanges. They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact. When the workplace opened up they saw each other daily and spoke about general everyday things and then they would go home and sext and exchange pics all night. It all came to an end when the man's wife found out who then contacted me. I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this. Both parties swear it never became physical but I will never know the truth. What about lunch breaks or walking out to the car at night after work. Their affair lasted 17 months. Not sure how i can come back from this. We've been seeing marriage counselors and individual therapy . I want to make it work and so does she but the thoughts won't leave my mind. It's been 2 months and everyday feels like the day I found out


----------



## re16

EA + physical proximity = PA.

Have you read the correspondence between them?

I think you are correct to assume that they are both lying.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> Hello, wife and I have been married for 10 years. We are In our late 30s. We have 3 young children together. Recently I found out that at the start of covid she befriended a colleague. When covid shut down the workplace they started texting daily with good mornings and general discussion. That somehow turned into sexting and picture exchanges. They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact. When the workplace opened up they saw each other daily and spoke about general everyday things and then they would go home and sext and exchange pics all night. It all came to an end when the man's wife found out who then contacted me. I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this. Both parties swear it never became physical but I will never know the truth. What about lunch breaks or walking out to the car at night after work. Their affair lasted 17 months. Not sure how i can come back from this. We've been seeing marriage counselors and individual therapy . I want to make it work and so does she but the thoughts won't leave my mind. It's been 2 months and everyday feels like the day I found out


Of course she says she wants to make it work, she got caught! If the wife of POSOM hadn't caught him it would still be going on and it would most certainly turned physical, if it hasn't already. Even if not physical she was sending nude pics to another man. Your choice if you want to reconcile, but I suggest you trust absolutely nothing from her. She is already a proven liar and cheater. DO NOT look for ways that this could be your fault. Even if you suck as a husband no one deserves to be cheated on.


----------



## Mr.Married

There is an often suggested method on this forum that is guaranteed to get answers but surprisingly enough it is rarely used. If you want answers then schedule a polygraph. You will likely get a parking lot confession. Why nobody actually does it I have no idea .... I think it is because they don’t actually want to face the truth.

If your wife didn’t **** him then I am the pope.


----------



## GusPolinski

re16 said:


> EA + physical proximity = PA.
> 
> Have you read the correspondence between them?
> 
> I think you are correct to assume that they are both lying.


Correct.

They’re lying.


----------



## Mtg2584

I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


----------



## GusPolinski

Mtg2584 said:


> I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


Polygraphs are junk.


----------



## Rob_1

Mtg2584 said:


> I want to make it work


Then what are you complaining about? you already accepted your wife's cheating in whichever form it took and are willing to look the other way as long as you "can make it work".
the above statement basically is reconciliation at all cost. Try reading the Reconciliation forums on this or any other forums that you can find. You will see that it seldon works. It will be there in your mind forever. You may pass through it eventually, but in your mind your marriage will never, ever be the same. Don't rugswept this. Look within yourself, if you moral compass does not accept this to your basic core, then you're doomed to a miserable marriage if you stay. Remember, children are better living in two happy homes than in a miserable one.


----------



## Mtg2584

re16 said:


> EA + physical proximity = PA.
> 
> Have you read the correspondence between them?
> 
> I think you are correct to assume that they are both lying.


Haven't read.. both ends deleted Facebook messenger messages.


----------



## GusPolinski

By the way, which of them is quitting their job?

Rule #1 of Reconciliation — Zero ongoing contact with affair partners.


----------



## GusPolinski

Mtg2584 said:


> Haven't read.. both ends deleted Facebook messenger messages.


She gets the messages back or you divorce.


----------



## Mtg2584

GusPolinski said:


> By the way, which of them is quitting their job?
> 
> Rule #1 of Reconciliation — Zero ongoing contact with affair partners.


She quit her job. Deleted facebook and all social media


----------



## Mtg2584

GusPolinski said:


> She gets the messages back or you divorce.


If i could get the messages back I would have reviewed them already ..


----------



## re16

Ask her for a detailed timeline in writing. Tell her any lies = automatic divorce.

When she provides that, tell her she is taking a polygraph.

You don't need to actually set one up, just tell her when her "appointment" is and drive to the parking lot about 45 mins early. See what sort of parking lot confession you get.


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.


Except that they were in physical proximity, so this wasn't simply a virtual relationship.

Think about it, after getting photos and descriptions etc, do you think this guy didn't feel the green light in his mind about your wife when they were in the same room? This situation screams PA.


----------



## re16

Setup a STD test and DNA your kids. That might help send a message to her about how much trust she broke.


----------



## GusPolinski

re16 said:


> Ask her for a detailed timeline in writing. Tell her any lies = automatic divorce.
> 
> When she provides that, tell her she is taking a polygraph.
> 
> You don't need to actually set one up, just tell her when her "appointment" is and drive to the parking lot about 45 mins early. See what sort of parking lot confession you get.


There are already lies. Years from now, he’ll realize that.


----------



## re16

Did she take any trips recently without you?

ETA: Also check her time off from work and see if there are days she took off when she claimed to be going to work.....

Perhaps OM did the same / have the OBS check APs time off also....


----------



## Mtg2584

re16 said:


> Did she take any trips recently without you?
> 
> ETA: Also check her time off from work and see if there are days she took off when she claimed to be going to work.....
> 
> Perhaps OM did the same / have the OBS check APs time off also....


No she is basically now just a stay at home mom. She doesn't want to go anywhere without me. She is hurt that she hurt Me. Admitted everything and volunteered information that I would have never known about .


----------



## Rob_1

re16 said:


> *Except that they were in physical proximity, so this wasn't simply a virtual relationship.*
> 
> Think about it, after getting photos and descriptions etc, do you think this guy didn't feel the green light in his mind about your wife when they were in the same room? This situation screams PA.


He's going for reconciliation at all cost, so it really doesn't matter, because he already shut that possibility down.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> No she is basically now just a stay at home mom. She doesn't want to go anywhere without me. She is hurt that she hurt Me. Admitted everything and volunteered information that I would have never known about .


I genuinely hope for the sake of your kids and you that this turns her around. Sadly the trust level will never be the same again.


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> No she is basically now just a stay at home mom. She doesn't want to go anywhere without me. She is hurt that she hurt Me. Admitted everything and volunteered information that I would have never known about .


If this was a work place affair they had sex. Without a doubt. In the car, in the bathroom, in a broom closet. It was also long term so it was weekly.


----------



## Mtg2584

Rob_1 said:


> He's going for reconciliation at all cost, so it really doesn't matter, because he already shut that possibility down.


Trying to find reasons to stay and leave. Still in detective mode but want to believe she is now telling the truth. If I do leave I have to pay her an enormous amount and she likely gets kids as i work.


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> I want to make it work


What are your reasons for this statement?


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> If I do leave I have to pay her an enormous amount


This is called the price of freedom.


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> Trying to find reasons to stay and leave. Still in detective mode but want to believe she is now telling the truth. If I do leave I have to pay her an enormous amount and she likely gets kids as i work.


You need to assume this was physical because all the components of a physical affair are there. Put the burden of proving it wasn't on her.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> Trying to find reasons to stay and leave. Still in detective mode but want to believe she is now telling the truth. If I do leave I have to pay her an enormous amount and she likely gets kids as i work.


Those are practical reasons to stay for sure, but it is hard to get passed the fact that you wife and mother of your children was exchanging nude pics and sexual texts with another man. Again, assuming it didn't get physical.


----------



## Mr.Married

Mtg2584 said:


> I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


 Yeah ..... no body actually scheduled one. Go figure.


----------



## Mtg2584

re16 said:


> What are your reasons for this statement?


10 years of commitment, memories, kids.. never had this happen to me before.


Mr.Married said:


> Yeah ..... no body actually scheduled one. Go figure.


It was my idea and I didn't follow through. I called a few places. Has anyone ever had success with this ?


----------



## sokillme

You have no idea what you don't know. Polygraph is the only way to know for sure, if that. Make your wife get a job, it may help you if you divorce.

What did she say when she was caught? Did you get a look at her phone?


----------



## Mtg2584

sokillme said:


> You have no idea what you don't know. Polygraph is the only way to know for sure. Make your wife get a job, it may help you if your divorce.
> 
> What did she say when she was caught? Did you get a look at her phone?


Everything was deleted already. She deleted them daily. Would you say that if she did pass a polygraph and I confirm she is now telling the truth about physical activity it is a step in the right direction?


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> Everything was deleted already. She deleted them daily. Would you say that if she did pass a polygraph and I confirm she is now telling the truth about physical activity it is a step in the right direction?


Why do you believe it did not get physical? Did she admit to any sort of physical interaction?


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> 10 years of commitment, memories, kids..


 This is a sunk cost fallacy = because you've already invested time / money, that is a not a reason to continue to invest more. That investment is now gone whether you stay or leave. Plus, you only know its 10 years of commitment from you, not from her.

I would be assuming that things of this nature have been going on more than you know. Staying together for the kids really doesn't work, just read the stories on here. You'll have a bad marriage that will be their model of how to live.... not very helpful to them in the long run.

This trust issue you have and feeling of D-day is not going to go away. It will continue to come up for years. This is the gift infidelity.

It seems like you are on the verge of a rugsweep and that can't happen. How quickly did you tell her you want to work it out after finding out?


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> Everything was deleted already. She deleted them daily. Would you say that if she did pass a polygraph and I confirm she is now telling the truth about physical activity it is a step in the right direction?


So basically she made hundreds of decisions to intentionally deceive you.


----------



## Mtg2584

Torninhalf said:


> Why do you believe it did not get physical? Did she admit to any sort of physical interaction?


She admitted hugging him once and that was it


----------



## re16

Mtg2584 said:


> She admitted hugging him once and that was it


That is cheater speak for they had sex multiple times.


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> She admitted hugging him once and that was it


Complete and utter lie. My husband has a work place affair. Half the fun is not getting caught. They had sex in his car, my car, her car, on her desk etc. It literally takes 5 minutes. Skirt up, fly unzipped and they are going to town. BTW my husband said it was one kiss…


----------



## anna2020

Mtg2584 said:


> Hello, wife and I have been married for 10 years. We are In our late 30s. We have 3 young children together. Recently I found out that at the start of covid she befriended a colleague. When covid shut down the workplace they started texting daily with good mornings and general discussion. That somehow turned into sexting and picture exchanges. They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact. When the workplace opened up they saw each other daily and spoke about general everyday things and then they would go home and sext and exchange pics all night. It all came to an end when the man's wife found out who then contacted me. I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this. Both parties swear it never became physical but I will never know the truth. What about lunch breaks or walking out to the car at night after work. Their affair lasted 17 months. Not sure how i can come back from this. We've been seeing marriage counselors and individual therapy . I want to make it work and so does she but the thoughts won't leave my mind. It's been 2 months and everyday feels like the day I found out


Sorry it happened to you. If your wife allowed it to get that far, sorry to say that but there's no love for you! Time to wake up and face the "music". Kids or no kids. I found out about my hubby's infidelity during COVID as well! Who knows, if there hadn't been for COVID maybe I'd still live in my "la la land". Lunch breaks definitely can be used for sex a quicky etc. My hubby had sex during his lunch breaks with his co-worker! I don't know if the therapy will help you or not.. it didn't help me. In my mind "once a cheater, always a cheater". Even if they weren't physical, is called "emotional infidelity" they fantasized about each other in their throughs and the flirt etc.... Time to think about yourself and figure out for yourself if you want this marriage to work and if you want to sleep in the same bed with someone who was sexting and texting behind your back another man...


----------



## RNSoSo

Mtg2584 said:


> She admitted hugging him once and that was it


Listen, cheaters lie and they lie a lot! 
She got caught, and that is the ONLY reason you know about the affair because I assure you that she would not be forthcoming and honest with you on her own terms. I have a hard time believing that these two worked together (meaning a lot of time spent together) and did not have a physical affair.


----------



## jsmart

She was bringing your kids around this POS. How nice the beautiful blended family. What was that a test run? I would bet there was some future faking and I love you exchanged.

They hugged once? You need to wake up, this dude has been banging your wife for over a year. You need her to do a recovery on that phone and app, so you can know exactly what it is you’re forgiving. 

If you spend time reading the threads on this and similar forums, you’ll quickly find out that we only kissed is the biggest lie followed by we only had sex 3 times with condom and I didn’t like it. Get ready for the trickles of revelations to become a torrent once you book the poli. The parking lot confession is where you’ll finally get to how wanton she really has been.


----------



## Rob_1

re16 said:


> That is cheater speak for they had sex multiple times.


Correct. it's called gaslighting you or trickle down you. What she told you is one of the classical gaslighting/trickle down statements that all cheaters say. It's always more, much more than they will ever tell you unless, confronted with the facts. In their surviving mode, cheaters will always, deny, deny, and give as little information as possible in the hope the the betrayed doesn't have or will never find out the true.


----------



## RNSoSo

10 years of commitment, memories,
[/QUOTE]
Apparently 10 years meant nothing to your wife. 

I was with my ex husband for 15 years (since highschool). I found out he had an affair lasting over year. Heard the news from his mistress. I forgave him. Only to later find out that he cheated on me two more times. 

So time invested isn't a good reason to stick around with a cheater! You may only wasting more time.


----------



## anna2020

Also my hubby would take days off work and sometimes half days off work. He'd go to "work" or make it look like he's going to work but he did NOT! I looked at his "vacation time" and he had taken some days off when he was at "work" according to him! There were days when I'd call him/text him all day and he would not reply at all!! When he'd come home, I'd ask him "why you never replied?" He'd say "sorry my power in my phone was cut off" or some other lie.... Don't trust her! She "voluntarily" admitted ONLY after you found out from that man's wife! Remember that!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Mtg2584 said:


> She admitted hugging him once and that was it


Oh my I hope you didn’t fall off the turnip truck today! She is lying.


----------



## Captain Obvious

Have you talked to OM’s wife about it? I know she found out and blew it up but What does she know, what does she think happened?


----------



## Kaliber

Mtg2584 said:


> Their affair lasted 17 months


@Mtg2584 I will ask you as a man, do you believe that an affair lasted almost a year and a half with sexting and where she even brought your kids around the him didn't get physical?!
What kind of a man who will wait for 17 months *sexting *and *meeting up *without getting any action?!
How many days and hours she spent in a close proximity to him? and she is saying nothing sexual happened, not even a quickie?!

There is no man out there who will invest 17 months in sexting and meetups with another women (even kids got involved) risking his marriage and family without getting any!
Sit and think about it!


----------



## Gabriel

95% chance they had sex. Sorry. You have a lot of investigative work to do.

Think about it. Absolutely nobody just sends sexy texts for 17 months when there is physical proximity. They hugged once? LMAO. That is rich.


----------



## jjj858

Yeah what she’s saying is BS. When my ex cheated on me at first she said “we only kissed”. Only after berating her non stop did she finally confess that they had been sleeping together.

if she has an iPhone does she ever back it up to iTunes? If not back it up yourself while she’s sleeping. Then you can extract the backup file and convert the texts into a pdf file (I think iPhone-sms.com is the site). If she has been backing up her texts to iCloud you may be able to get deleted ones back too. Unfortunately with Facebook they literally provide cheaters with a “secret conversations” feature on messenger so there’s no way to get those back.


----------



## cocolo2019

OP, it is very probable it was a PA.


1) Talk to a lawyer to see how you stand in a divorce. You don't have to file, but knowledge is power.

2) Get a VAR and put in her car, her room, etc. You will receive more tips about VAR. I will let you know why a VAR is important. 

3) Request her a timeline. One very detailed and tell her the timeline will he subject to a polygraph test. It is very probable she will call someone for advice and here you will have more intelligence with the VAR.

4) Request to do an STD test (and do it one on yourself) and tell her you will DNA your kids. They could be your copycats, but this is a message to let her know you don't believe her.

5) Demand her to get Individual Counseling and you too, with a different therapist. 

6) If you find out it was a PA and it is a deal breaker, demand her to get a job before you file.

Other tips: get her phone and get a message recovery program. If you can afford a PI to check her phone, do it.

Read no More Mr Nice Guy from Dr. GLOVER. 

You are being Tricked right know.
You have to read a thread from Oldshirt to understand the mentality of a Wayward, and it's very probable your wife is what is know as a Cake-Eater. I know it is hard, but it is probable is the truth.


----------



## Rob_1

Also: you should try to keep open communication with the other betrayed spouse to compare notes, because you never know what she can get to confess out of her cheating husband. Please, compare notes for a period of time.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Mtg2584 said:


> If i could get the messages back I would have reviewed them already ..


Have her reactivate Facebook. They still may be available


----------



## cocolo2019

OP read this.

This is the mentality of a wayward. Note: triggers ahead. 

Don't be a doormat and take action. If you decide to reconcile, first you have to know the truth and what you are forgiving. Because if you don't, in several years she will do the same.










Lessons learned being OM #2 - harsh realities (Warning...


The main thing I want people to understand from part 1 is that no one is immune and it can happen any time, any where. There are a number of other things that I don't think many BHs/BSs can wrap their head around initially that people need to be aware of. I am going to post a few of those...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


----------



## Mtg2584

Rob_1 said:


> Also: you should try to keep open communication with the other betrayed spouse to compare notes, because you never know what she can get to confess out of her cheating husband. Please, compare notes for a period of time.


I've been speaking with the spouse. She is a pitbull and even tried tricking him many ways saying my wife admitted physical activity and he still said there was none. I am speaking to my wife as i type and she is crying that is was never more than messages that was a fantasy to fill the time while I ignored her (busy supporting our family)


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> I've been speaking with the spouse. She is a pitbull and even tried tricking him many ways saying my wife admitted physical activity and he still said there was none. I am speaking to my wife as i type and she is crying that is was never more than messages that was a fantasy to fill the time while I ignored her (busy supporting our family)


Fantasy if the man lived 1000 miles away. If she was sending nudes and videos he, like any man, was going to get it in.


----------



## ShatteredKat

Mtg2584:

"They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact."

17 months and "nothing ever in person?" So when meeting in parks children play (?) and the two paramours do what?
Just watch silently the children? You believe that?

Do you believe this whole statement to be true? If so, how did this information get to you? Spouse? OBS? If from OBS, how did she get the information?

See a problem here? Two people, male & female, cheating on their spouses. 

One of the most common attributes of a cheater: They LIE.

Joe Kendall would hardly raise an eyebrow at hearing the words. But he would not 100% discount and would continue 
to "work the crime" trying to find the whole truth.

Have you gone over your credit cards, bank account(s), travel distances on "her" car. Have you looked over your phone bill? Have you looked at 17 months on the calendar and noted "the meet-ups."

General suggestion is to ask for a detailed timeline - all 17 months. Then schedule a polygraph to verify. Most posters would surmise more information come to light in a parking-lot-confession. Not an unusual occurrence -

You have a lifetime memory now - your wife "sexting" (and what else?) - you will have to learn to live with that.

Are you going to "police" her? Being a marriage cop sucks and will break your spirit. 

You have a lot of work to do for your marriage to recover and have any kind of genuine reconciliation. Your wife has some
serious boundary issues and maybe some attitudes toward a marriage relationship that need adjustment. She needs to get herself fixed.

Otherwise you will be back here - or on another infidelity blog.


----------



## sokillme

Mtg2584 said:


> Everything was deleted already. She deleted them daily. Would you say that if she did pass a polygraph and I confirm she is now telling the truth about physical activity it is a step in the right direction?


I would try to see if you can do a recovery on the phone, also see if you have any backups you can use them too.


----------



## Mtg2584

ShatteredKat said:


> Mtg2584:
> 
> "They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact."
> 
> 17 months and "nothing ever in person?" So when meeting in parks children play (?) and the two paramours do what?
> Just watch silently the children? You believe that?
> 
> Do you believe this whole statement to be true? If so, how did this information get to you? Spouse? OBS? If from OBS, how did she get the information?
> 
> See a problem here? Two people, male & female, cheating on their spouses.
> 
> One of the most common attributes of a cheater: They LIE.
> 
> Joe Kendall would hardly raise an eyebrow at hearing the words. But he would not 100% discount and would continue
> to "work the crime" trying to find the whole truth.
> 
> Have you gone over your credit cards, bank account(s), travel distances on "her" car. Have you looked over your phone bill? Have you looked at 17 months on the calendar and noted "the meet-ups."
> 
> General suggestion is to ask for a detailed timeline - all 17 months. Then schedule a polygraph to verify. Most posters would surmise more information come to light in a parking-lot-confession. Not an unusual occurrence -
> 
> You have a lifetime memory now - your wife "sexting" (and what else?) - you will have to learn to live with that.
> 
> Are you going to "police" her? Being a marriage cop sucks and will break your spirit.
> 
> You have a lot of work to do for your marriage to recover and have any kind of genuine reconciliation. Your wife has some
> serious boundary issues and maybe some attitudes toward a marriage relationship that need adjustment. She needs to get herself fixed.
> 
> Otherwise you will be back here - or on another infidelity blog.



We are both seeing individual therapists and then a separate couples therapist. She continues the same story even to her private therapist as I had a recorder in the room. Either she is telling the truth about PA or she is still being dishonest with her therapy. I do believe she wants to make it work and never would.do this again. But the past unknown is what is killing me


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


Your therapist is not worth ****. Find a real one.

Them cheating has nothing to do with you. If the relationship was suffering before hand, you share a part in it. Everything from the start of their affair until now relationship wise is on your wife only.

They are lying about it not being physical.


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> We are both seeing individual therapists and then a separate couples therapist. She continues the same story even to her private therapist as I had a recorder in the room. Either she is telling the truth about PA or she is still being dishonest with her therapy. I do believe she wants to make it work and never would.do this again. But the past unknown is what is killing me
> [/QUOTE
> She is lying! Please trust the people here! They all lie and follow a script!


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> Trying to find reasons to stay and leave. Still in detective mode but want to believe she is now telling the truth. If I do leave I have to pay her an enormous amount and she likely gets kids as i work.


Make her get a job. It sounds like she quit her job to try and force you to stay.

At least find and talk with the best divorce lawyer in your area. They should be able to help with who to use for the polygraph.


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> I've been speaking with the spouse. She is a pitbull and even tried tricking him many ways saying my wife admitted physical activity and he still said there was none. I am speaking to my wife as i type and she is crying that is was never more than messages that was a fantasy to fill the time while I ignored her (busy supporting our family)


She is blaming you because you had to work?!?!?!

WTF!!!


----------



## ABHale

Stop the couples therapy until you finish with IC.


----------



## Mtg2584

In process of scheduling the polygraph to address the physical activity. If she does pass, has anyone had experience with polygraph and accuracy?


----------



## Mtg2584

ABHale said:


> She is blaming you because you had to work?!?!?!
> 
> WTF!!!


Not blaming.me...just giving reasons for her loneliness..


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> In process of scheduling the polygraph to address the physical activity. If she does pass, has anyone had experience with polygraph and accuracy?


Make sure she takes a drug test right afterwards. There are some drugs that will allow people to pass it. Talk with the tester.


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> Not blaming.me...just giving reasons for her loneliness..


while you ignored her, is blame shifting. She is saying it’s your fault that she was lonely.

Her affair has nothing to do with you.

She did it because SHE wanted too.

It wasn’t because she was lonely. That is blame shifting. “She wouldn’t have been lonely if YOU took care of her needs.” That is how it comes back on you.

She had sex with the POSOM because she want it.


----------



## DudeInProgress

Mtg2584 said:


> I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


Except that in this case, they know each other in real life and have actual physical proximity

Schedule the polygraph and follow through with it. A lot of people say they’re willing to take one, thinking you won’t actually set it up and go through with it.

Even if you don’t get all the answers, you’ll know a lot more than you do right now.
She’ll either:
1. Have a parking lot confession before going into the polygraph once she realizes it’s really going to happen.
2. Take the polygraph and fail
3. Take the polygraph and pass


----------



## DudeInProgress

Mtg2584 said:


> Trying to find reasons to stay and leave. Still in detective mode but want to believe she is now telling the truth. If I do leave I have to pay her an enormous amount and she likely gets kids as i work.


Stop wanting to believe she is NOW telling you the truth. At this point, everything she says is a lie until proven otherwise. Get a written timeline from her and schedule the polygraph.


----------



## DudeInProgress

Kaliber said:


> @Mtg2584 I will ask you as a man, do you believe that an affair lasted almost a year and a half with sexting and where she even brought your kids around the him didn't get physical?!
> What kind of a man who will wait for 17 months *sexting *and *meeting up *without getting any action?!
> How many days and hours she spent in a close proximity to him? and she is saying nothing sexual happened, not even a quickie?!
> 
> There is no man out there who will invest 17 months in sexting and meetups with another women (even kids got involved) risking his marriage and family without getting any!
> Sit and think about it!


These virtual things tend to either progress, or fizzle out within weeks/months. Apparently it didn’t fizzle out, so…


----------



## Harken Banks

Stop the marriage counseling. As for the question of whether your wife may be lying to the therapists, mine did. I was naive enough to think oh we are being honest in therapy. Marriage counseling did more damage and more to rationalize and bury the affair and turn the conversation against me for not just getting over it. Worst. The marriage counselor basically bolstered her lies.


----------



## Torninhalf

Harken Banks said:


> Stop the marriage counseling. As for the question of whether your wife may be lying to the therapists, mine did. I was naive enough to think oh we are being honest in therapy. Marriage counseling did more damage and more to rationalize and bury the affair and turn the conversation against me for not just getting over it. Worst. The marriage counselor basically bolstered her lies.


Exact same thing happened to me. The therapist demanded to know why I didn’t believe him. She told me I was in the wrong because he was so sincere and willing to work on the marriage.


----------



## Willnotbill

Mtg2584 said:


> In process of scheduling the polygraph to address the physical activity. If she does pass, has anyone had experience with polygraph and accuracy?


I set up a polygraph for my now ex-wife. She agreed to it but I don't think she believed I was serious so I feel she thought she was calling my bluff. I made the appointment and let her know. The day before the poly she confessed and never took the test. I still had to pay for it but it was money well spent.


----------



## Mtg2584

Willnotbill said:


> I set up a polygraph for my now ex-wife. She agreed to it but I don't think she believed I was serious so I feel she thought she was calling my bluff. I made the appointment and let her know. The day before the poly she confessed and never took the test. I still had to pay for it but it was money well spent.


I told her thr test is in 2 days .. she says she will take so far


----------



## Openminded

Yes, there are people who lie to their therapist.


----------



## GusPolinski

Mtg2584 said:


> Everything was deleted already. She deleted them daily. Would you say that if she did pass a polygraph and I confirm she is now telling the truth about physical activity it is a step in the right direction?


All that would confirm is that she’s a reeeally good liar.


----------



## jsmart

How has your sex life been these past year? Did she sexually cut you off or provide cold and indifferent duty sex? It is very common for a WW to stop or sharply curtail sex with their husband because they want to be loyal to the OM. 

Btw, how old are your 3 young kids? It is truly F’d up that she brought your kids around this guy. Did she tells you if she told him she loved him?

At 17 months, this affair was nearly times as long as the affair average of 6 months. With her working with the guy, sending him pics & videos, and involving your kids, it is very likely that she’s in love with the guy. So it is Almost surely a sexual PA. Neither you or the OBS will find hotel receipts. Most sex in coworker affairs takes place at a local park in the car. They’ll park in a secluded section and have sex or get a BJ in the back seat.


----------



## Mtg2584

jsmart said:


> How has your sex life been these past year? Did she sexually cut you off or provide cold and indifferent duty sex? It is very common for a WW to stop or sharply curtail sex with their husband because they want to be loyal to the OM.
> 
> Btw, how old are your 3 young kids? It is truly F’d up that she brought your kids around this guy. Did she tells you if she told him she loved him?
> 
> At 17 months, this affair was nearly times as long as the affair average of 6 months. With her working with the guy, sending him pics & videos, and involving your kids, it is very likely that she’s in love with the guy. So it is Almost surely a sexual PA. Neither you or the OBS will find hotel receipts. Most sex in coworker affairs takes place at a local park in the car. They’ll park in a secluded section and have sex or get a BJ in the back seat.


Kids are 4 , 7 ,9. They did work together before covod but office closed and everything went virtual hence the virtual relationship. It was texts and meetings w kids at park as.he has same age kids. Once covid started they didn't see each other. All credit cards are in my name so I know if anything was spent. She said the.daily love yous but said she never said it in person. She says they never even spoke sexual in person as she is truly very shy. On one hand I honestly believe.her.as I know her mentality. She can't even order at a restaurant without me helping. The other hand is how could it last so long without a quick meeting at the grocery store parking lot which I'd never know about. As a man unless the guy is scared or gay what woild.keep him coming back.


----------



## Mtg2584

jsmart said:


> How has your sex life been these past year? Did she sexually cut you off or provide cold and indifferent duty sex? It is very common for a WW to stop or sharply curtail sex with their husband because they want to be loyal to the OM.
> 
> Btw, how old are your 3 young kids? It is truly F’d up that she brought your kids around this guy. Did she tells you if she told him she loved him?
> 
> At 17 months, this affair was nearly times as long as the affair average of 6 months. With her working with the guy, sending him pics & videos, and involving your kids, it is very likely that she’s in love with the guy. So it is Almost surely a sexual PA. Neither you or the OBS will find hotel receipts. Most sex in coworker affairs takes place at a local park in the car. They’ll park in a secluded section and have sex or get a BJ in the back seat.


Sex life slowed down but was present. Definitely noticed a difference. BTW. We both don't drink or go out at night. There was no opportunity other than daytime running errands


----------



## Evinrude58

Mtg2584 said:


> I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


And she’s a dirty liar too


----------



## Evinrude58

Mtg2584 said:


> Sex life slowed down but was present. Definitely noticed a difference. BTW. We both don't drink or go out at night. There was no opportunity other than daytime running errands


You’re wrong. The first thing a cheater says when they get caught sexting and such —-/ “it was never physical”..... don’t be that naive. Don’t ignore the obvious because it hurts.
Your wife doesn’t have love you anymore. All her energy and emotions was going into this other married man . If he wanted her and wasn’t married, she’d have left you for him.
See an attorney.


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> Sex life slowed down but was present. Definitely noticed a difference. BTW. We both don't drink or go out at night. There was no opportunity other than daytime running errands


That’s plenty of time.

If she was meeting him during the day with the kids. She had no problems speaking with him. She wasn’t shy with him, she would never have been able to see him face to face after sexting if she was.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> I told her thr test is in 2 days .. she says she will take so far


Polygraphs are fairly accurate, around 85%-90%. Not perfect but quite good and the only thing you have to rely on now. As others have said, if she did have a physical affair she we likely not want to go through. If she passes, maybe that is enough to give you a to the reconcile. You still have a lot of work ahead of you. Exchanging nude pics and sexting is still infidelity in my opinion.


----------



## Sfort

Mtg2584 said:


> I told her thr test is in 2 days .. she says she will take so far


You should actually have the tests scheduled. No bluffing. If you get a parking lot confession, so be it. However, if you lie about the test, are you any better than she is? Polygraphs are not totally reliable, but they are an indicator. Clear deception is fairly easy to detect. Unequivocal truth is fairly easy to detect. "Inconclusive" can mean the answer is somewhere in between. It's critical the way the questions are written. It's also important that the polygrapher have a lot of experience with infidelity issues.


----------



## jsmart

Mtg2584 said:


> Sex life slowed down but was present. Definitely noticed a difference. BTW. We both don't drink or go out at night. There was no opportunity other than daytime running errands


The nearly cutting you off was because it made her feel like she was cheating on her man. Just as I thought, she was in love with this guy. You say she that she’s shy but yet here she was sending nude pics and making videos of herself masterbating. That doesn’t sound to shy to me. 

Definitely follow through on the poli even if you get the parking lot confession. You want to first get a timeline and ask important questions.

1. Did you have sex?
2. Did you perform oral ?
3. Has there been any other men since we’ve been together?
4. Did you discuss leaving me for him? 

Before you can possibly forgive and work towards R, you really need to understand what you’re forgiving. I’ve read countless threads of BHs who thought they were dealing with an EA that turned out be very wanton sexual PAs. That’s another thing you will learn if you’re here long enough is that WWs tend to get buck wild with their OM. Nothing like the sex they have with their BHs.


----------



## Asterix

Additional question to ask is:

Was there any sensual/sexual physical contact between the two of them?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

You may find that as the polygraph date approaches she starts looking for a way out. "I can't believe you would treat me like a criminal" or "why do we want to waste money on this when I already told you the truth?" This is an admission of guilt. Stick to your guns and make sure the polygraph happens.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Mtg2584 said:


> She quit her job. Deleted facebook and all social media


Actually, you should have her get a new job. Otherwise, if you can't come back from this and you divorce, you will be at a greater financial disadvantage.


----------



## Sfort

jsmart said:


> The nearly cutting you off was because it made her feel like she was cheating on her man. Just as I thought, she was in love with this guy. You say she that she’s shy but yet here she was sending nude pics and making videos of herself masterbating. That doesn’t sound to shy to me.
> 
> Definitely follow through on the poli even if you get the parking lot confession. You want to first get a timeline and ask important questions.
> 
> 1. Did you have sex?
> 2. Did you perform oral ?
> 3. Has there been any other men since we’ve been together?
> 4. Did you discuss leaving me for him?
> 
> Before you can possibly forgive and work towards R, you really need to understand what you’re forgiving. I’ve read countless threads of BHs who thought they were dealing with an EA that turned out be very wanton sexual PAs. That’s another thing you will learn if you’re here long enough is that WWs tend to get buck wild with their OM. Nothing like the sex they have with their BHs.


Most polygraphs are limited to two or three questions for reliability. The way the questions are written is pivotal.

1. Did you have sex? --> Have you had sexual intercourse with another man since we got engaged?
2. Did you perform oral ? --> Have you performed oral sex on another man since we got engaged? 
3. Has there been any other men since we’ve been together? --> Has another man performed oral sex on you since we've been married?
4. Did you discuss leaving me for him?

Once you ask the first three, the jig is up. You will probably get all of the answers you want. If the examiner will permit a few more questions with the understand that the answers are increasingly unreliable, you could shoot for a couple more.


----------



## GoldenR

Her tears aren't because you are questioning her. Her tears are bc she knows you are about to find out the real truth and she's scared she will lose her safe, stable home life and family. 

Adults don't sneak around to hug or chit chat. They sneak around to have sex. 

SHE. IS. LIEING. 

I would skip the poly and serve her. Tell her unless you get the full truth you can't even discuss staying together and she has until the day before it's final to convince you to call it off.


----------



## Evinrude58

Mtg2584 said:


> Kids are 4 , 7 ,9. They did work together before covod but office closed and everything went virtual hence the virtual relationship. It was texts and meetings w kids at park as.he has same age kids. Once covid started they didn't see each other. All credit cards are in my name so I know if anything was spent. She said the.daily love yous but said she never said it in person. ********. She says they never even spoke sexual in person as she is truly very shy. total ******** On one hand I honestly believe.her.as I know her mentality. now you are really being naive here, badly She can't even order at a restaurant without me helping. The other hand is how could it last so long without a quick meeting at the grocery store parking lot which I'd never know about. As a man unless the guy is scared or gay what woild.keep him coming back.yep


Please don’t tell yourself a woman that sexts and sends videos to a guy she sees at work and such and was doing this 17 months and you actually believe they didn’t have sex. 
But who cares if she has sex with him. She said she loves him. Boot her sorry ass and move on. Nothing to save, nothing to fix.
She loves another man. That’s non-fixable.


----------



## jjj858

Yeah unfortunately this seems non-salvageable. You’re her husband. She’s supposed to love you. She loves another man now. It’s over. Serve her.


----------



## sideways

Listen, I know this situation sucks, but how can you expect her to be honest with you when you aren't even being honest with yourself?

You want to believe her lies (that this was never physical) because you're afraid of what the truth will do to you and your marriage and your family.

So you buy into her lies by lying to yourself. 
You do so because you want this all to go away and that life goes back to the way it was before you found out she was cheating.

You're willing to sweep all of this under the carpet because even though you're hurting right now the pain of finding out everything will be too much.

There's a reason you're here on TAM.

Your gut is SCREAMING at you that there's much more going on here than she's trying to tell you.

I can appreciate you wanting to believe her and to try to move on from this, but listen, you need to face your fears head on and deal with this NOW!! 

Trust me if you don't this is NOT going to go away. It's continually going to rear its head and the tug-of-war in your head will get bigger and bigger and you're going to hate yourself and turn into someone that YOU WILL NOT LIKE!! 

It will spill into every area of your life and your kids will pay the price of it.

So what do you do?

First, as I said previously, the first step is to STOP lying to yourself. You want honesty from her...well how about starting with yourself first.

Stop it with "she's shy" and "she can't even order for herself" and all the other lies she's spewing and you're DESPERATELY trying to convince yourself to believe.

This has gone on long enough that there's no way that your wife and piece of $hit other dude haven't had sex together. She can try to convince you otherwise but I'd tell her "pull my other leg and it plays Jingle Bells".

Again, I know you want to reconcile and just want all of this to go away, but in order to do this you have to have TRUTH. It's the foundation of any marriage.

How can you expect to attempt reconciliation when you don't even know what you're ultimately dealing with and would ultimately be forgiving?

So again what do you do?
You sit her down, and calmly look her in the eyes and say, "in order for us to potentially move forward there needs to be truth between us, and right now, given that you've brought another man into out marriage without me knowing and all the lies that were going on behind my back have put me in a position that I can't believe anything you say. Your an adult but we all heard the story of the boy who cried wolf as a child and more importantly the moral of the story. So that's what's going on here.

So, the only solution I'm willing to explore to potentially see if this marriage is worth saving is to have you do an extremely detailed time-line from the moment this affair started through today. I want the truth how it started, what was discussed, things you said to one another, was our marriage discussed, were you bad mouthing me to this man, did you kiss, where?, did you have intercourse with him, where?, did you give or receive oral, where?, what lies did you tell me in order to meet with him, what physical acts did you do with him, anything you did with him that you wouldn't do with me, where did you see this affair going, did you make plans to one day have a future with him, would this still be going on if you weren't busted. Anything else you can think of.

I want you to give a very detailed time-line and not holding back because you don't want to hurt me. As your husband I need and deserve the truth from you so that I truly know what I'm dealing with.

Let me be clear, your words are just that...words.
I can't believe what you say and thus the only way to confirm your words is to have the time-line followed up with a polygraph.

If the polygraph confirms your words to truthful than I'll see that you respect enough to let me know what's gone on behind my back and what I'm dealing with and I can than make a decision on how I can move forward.

Let me also say you have one chance to do this. If the poly confirms your lying than you will have made the decision for me and this marriage will be over.

Tell her she has three days to finish the time-line and while she's doing that find and schedule the polygraph for as soon as possible. 

Than, whether or not you get a parking lot confession or not FOLLOW through on the poly.

Face your fears!!
This is not going to be easy but it's something that has to be done. If you don't you'll never be able to live with yourself.

It all starts with a choice.
Stop lying to yourself and being afraid and do what you have to do.


----------



## Robert22205

This is a long term problem.

Don't assume that because she can white knuckle it for a while that she won't get tempted and jump in again. And not necessarily with the same guy. 

Studies show that texting/sexting is addictive. It's not just about the OM. 
Texting triggers the same parts of the brain as drugs (in this case feeling young, pretty, and carefree).
Texting also has the same emotional impact as face to face conversation. 

The emotional connection is built on texting and when the opportunity to meet alone presents itself - an EA can escalate to a PA in a moment. Even if they had no opportunity to be alone (because of Covid) for a PA, they were on a slippery slope to adultery.

Every time she sees (or is reminded of the OM) their emotional connection (her addiction) will resurface.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Robert22205 said:


> This is a long term problem.
> 
> Don't assume that because she can white knuckle it for a while that she won't get tempted and jump in again. And not necessarily with the same guy.
> 
> Studies show that texting/sexting is addictive. It's not just about the OM.
> Texting triggers the same parts of the brain as drugs (in this case feeling young, pretty, and carefree).
> Texting also has the same emotional impact as face to face conversation.
> 
> The emotional connection is built on texting and when the opportunity to meet alone presents itself - an EA can escalate to a PA in a moment. Even if they had no opportunity to be alone for a PA, they were on a slippery slope to adultery.
> 
> Every time she sees (or is reminded of the OM) their emotional connection (her addiction) will resurface.


I can't see how they didn't go down that slippery slope. I mean 17 months of sexting and exchanging sexual explicit pics/videos? Come on, the smallest opportunity to be alone for even 5 minutes had to have turned into sex. I can't see how you could assume otherwise, no matter what she says. If they didn't they are extremely unusual.


----------



## In Absentia

Does it matter if they had sex? I wouldn't stay with a person who did this to me, regardless.


----------



## Robert22205

I suggest you both read and discuss: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass

It's based on couples (good people) that experienced infidelity. What they did wrong and what they could have done to protect their marriage.

The book will help your wife understand why the sexting was not harmless fun.

Your wife needs to understand that even if it was not a PA, that's where it was headed. Don't minimize thinking it was just fantasy. Why? because both EAs and PAs are typically built around fantasy. 

It was 'fun' and she convinced herself that: she could control their relationship; since she's a good person she will never cheat; and since you will never find out - it's harmless (but it's not because it can escalate in a heart beat).


----------



## Marc878

You can do a deleted text recovery on the phone. Using Fonelad, etc to confirm what you should already know. I would doubt messaging was just confined to Facebook. You can go online and look at message data to confirm that.

You can only be a chump if you allow it.


----------



## MJJEAN

Mtg2584 said:


> I've looked at polygraph and she is willing to take one.. therapist says virtual relationships are at times just fantasy.. like when someone posts on Facebook and get hundreds of replies from people who would ordinarily not speak up. Trying to find something here that I haven't thought of ...


Did you explain to your absolute dipshit of a therapist that we're talking about two adults who worked together when the affair began, met up in person WITH YOUR CHILDREN after work closed for COVID, and exchanged I love you's during their frequent exchanges, and that they've been romantically involved for _at least _17 months that you know of? If not, stop minimizing your wife's affair and tell the therapist the details. If so, find a half decent therapist. This one is defective.

That is NOT a fantasy. That is a flat out, no if and or but's, full blown, in real life, affair.

I was a wayward in my first marriage. Would you like to to tell you how much sex I got in cars before, during, and after, work? While out "running errands" during the day? Or about my lover coming over to the house while ex was at work? I'd give you a 1% chance they didn't have a physical relationship. All the signs are there.

Also, don't expect therapy to do a damn thing for her. She won't be honest with you or that therapist. She is protecting herself and her lover. She knows that, if she does, lover will lose his wife and he will hate her for it while she will lose her comfy life with you. She will tell NO ONE voluntarily. Head on over to Reddit's SurvivingInfidelity sub and ask how many of them had spouses in active affairs during marriage counseling and IC when they were "trying to work it out". The number of people who paid therapists for nothing because their WS's were lying with every breath is astounding.


----------



## MJJEAN

Marc878 said:


> I would doubt messaging was just confined to Facebook. You can go online and look at message data to confirm that.


Hopefully he can find texts and emails, but they may have actually confined it to FB. Once you delete FB PM's they are gone unless you have your messages archived. If she turned off archive then there is literally no way to retrieve those messages from her side. Now, if her lover messaged her the previous messages would appear. However, OP said he also deleted his messages, so that's a no go, too.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> You have no idea what you don't know. Polygraph is the only way to know for sure, if that. Make your wife get a job, it may help you if you divorce.
> 
> What did she say when she was caught? Did you get a look at her phone?


If you schedule a poly, make sure it is done by an experienced professional. Preferably retired law enforcement.


----------



## Divinely Favored

ABHale said:


> Make sure she takes a drug test right afterwards. There are some drugs that will allow people to pass it. Talk with the tester.


No psych meds or BP meds 12 hrs before testing.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Mtg2584 said:


> I told her thr test is in 2 days .. she says she will take so far


Get with poligrapher and come up with 
3 questions. 

1. Have you had sexual intercourse with any man since being in relationship with OP.

2. Have you done any sexual acts with any otger man since being in relationship with OP.

3 Have you engaged in sexual acts with POSOM.

I do not recall. Did she admit to getting their selves off while video chatting with each other. That is past divorce worthy in my book.


----------



## Divinely Favored

What state do you live in? If in Texas i can give a recommendation in Dallas area or a retured FBI agent in Houston area.


----------



## fencewalker

Mtg2584 said:


> I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this.


I hope both of you can make it through this. Some tough love: if you ignored the marriage then you asked for this. I'm assuming you have the kind of relationship where monogamy was never questioned. Monogamy is hard. You're the only person your wife was allowed to have sex with, to cuddle with, to send dirty messages to, to be intimate with, and then you cut her off. Imagine you were only allowed to shop at one grocery store for all your food and then that grocery store closed down. What would you do? Human beings by nature are willing and able to form many bonds. Monogamy asks for a lot. If you're not willing to allow your wife to bond with anyone but you, and she's not willing to let you bond with anyone but her, then both of you need to be extra attentive toward each other. You can't simply brush off, in your own words, "ignoring the marriage".


----------



## Evinrude58

fencewalker said:


> I hope both of you can make it through this. *Some tough love: if you ignored the marriage then you asked for this*. I'm assuming you have the kind of relationship where monogamy was never questioned. Monogamy is hard. You're the only person your wife was allowed to have sex with, to cuddle with, to send dirty messages to, to be intimate with, and then you cut her off. Imagine you were only allowed to shop at one grocery store for all your food and then that grocery store closed down. What would you do? Human beings by nature are willing and able to form many bonds. Monogamy asks for a lot. If you're not willing to allow your wife to bond with anyone but you, and she's not willing to let you bond with anyone but her, then both of you need to be extra attentive toward each other. You can't simply brush off, in your own words, "ignoring the marriage".


I disagree. It’s normal for a betrayer soiuse to think of all kinds of things they failed at in the relationship to try to take ownership of the problem— so they can fix it because they are in control of themselves. The decision to cheat is all about the cheater having no character.


----------



## jsmart

Evinrude58 said:


> I disagree. It’s normal for a betrayer soiuse to think of all kinds of things they failed at in the relationship to try to take ownership of the problem— so they can fix it because they are in control of themselves. The decision to cheat is all about the cheater having no character.


Totally agree. The majority of BHs that post here and SI, are full of excuses of why their WW betrayed him. Since men tend to be fixers, we think that if we identify one of our short comings that we think led to their wife’s betrayal, then we can fix it and win our wife’s love again. Of course it never works and it actually causes the WW to lose more respect for her BH. 

I also think there’s another reason for BHs falling on their swords. They want to R, so if they can take some of the blame, in their mind, they won’t seem weak because they’re taking responsibility for their faults.


----------



## fencewalker

jsmart said:


> Totally agree. The majority of BHs that post here and SI, are full of excuses of why their WW betrayed him. Since men tend to be fixers, we think that if we identify one of our short comings that we think led to their wife’s betrayal, then we can fix it and win our wife’s love again. Of course it never works and it actually causes the WW to lose more respect for her BH.
> 
> I also think there’s another reason for BHs falling on their swords. They want to R, so if they can take some of the blame, in their mind, they won’t seem weak because they’re taking responsibility for their faults.


English please. What do BH, SI, WW, and R mean?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> English please. What do BH, SI, WW, and R mean?


Somewhere on this site I've seen a post that explains all that.
BH - betrayed husband
SI - Surviving Infidelity (a different website)
WW - Wayward wife
R- Reconcile


----------



## fencewalker

Evinrude58 said:


> I disagree. It’s normal for a betrayer soiuse to think of all kinds of things they failed at in the relationship to try to take ownership of the problem— so they can fix it because they are in control of themselves. The decision to cheat is all about the cheater having no character.


This is black and white thinking. If your child typically does well in school but fails a test, do you say he's a bad student? That he has no character? Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times? Respectfully, too many people on this website are so quick not only to judge but to give one bad decision the same weight as a thousand good ones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You may not have done exactly what the wife in this situation did, but I'm sure you've made foolish decisions in your life, that you temporarily lost your temper or your sense, that you've hurt people with or without meaning to. Would you like someone to cherrypick the mistakes you've made and then say you have no character?

I doubt even the OP would say his wife has no character. Such statements are overly simplistic and will do nothing to fix the situation. Communication will. By his own admission - and something that the rest of this forum completely ignored - the OP said he had been ignoring the marriage. That's not something to be glossed over. To be honest, I'm dismayed at how many people thought nothing of interrogating the "evil" cheater, strapping her to a polygraph machine and going through her past messages, but didn't even think that the couple should sit down and have a mature conversation about what was happening before the affair.

If you're reading this, OP, and you feel comfortable, could you provide us with some background on what was going on in the marriage, why and how you were ignoring it? At the very least, you should talk about it with your wife.


----------



## bobert

fencewalker said:


> This is black and white thinking. If your child typically does well in school but fails a test, do you say he's a bad student? That he has no character? Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times? Respectfully, too many people on this website are so quick not only to judge but to give one bad decision the same weight as a thousand good ones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You may not have done exactly what the wife in this situation did, but I'm sure you've made foolish decisions in your life, that you temporarily lost your temper or your sense, that you've hurt people with or without meaning to. Would you like someone to cherrypick the mistakes you've made and then say you have no character?
> 
> I doubt even the OP would say his wife has no character. Such statements are overly simplistic and will do nothing to fix the situation. Communication will. By his own admission - and something that the rest of this forum completely ignored - the OP said he had been ignoring the marriage. That's not something to be glossed over. To be honest, I'm dismayed at how many people thought nothing of interrogating the "evil" cheater, strapping her to a polygraph machine and going through her past messages, but didn't even think that the couple should sit down and have a mature conversation about what was happening before the affair.
> 
> If you're reading this, OP, and you feel comfortable, could you provide us with some background on what was going on in the marriage, why and how you were ignoring it? At the very least, you should talk about it with your wife.


Way to blame the victim. Do you also ask a rape victim why her skirt was so short or why she took a short cut through the dark alley?


----------



## jlg07

fencewalker said:


> I hope both of you can make it through this. Some tough love: if you ignored the marriage then you asked for this.


Sorry but this is complete horseshit. He DID NOT make her cheat in ANY WAY shape or form. If the marriage was so bad, she should have divorced him before seeking out someone else.



fencewalker said:


> Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times?


It was 17 MONTHS of indiscretion, not a one night stand.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> This is black and white thinking. If your child typically does well in school but fails a test, do you say he's a bad student? That he has no character? Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times? Respectfully, too many people on this website are so quick not only to judge but to give one bad decision the same weight as a thousand good ones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You may not have done exactly what the wife in this situation did, but I'm sure you've made foolish decisions in your life, that you temporarily lost your temper or your sense, that you've hurt people with or without meaning to. Would you like someone to cherrypick the mistakes you've made and then say you have no character?
> 
> I doubt even the OP would say his wife has no character. Such statements are overly simplistic and will do nothing to fix the situation. Communication will. By his own admission - and something that the rest of this forum completely ignored - the OP said he had been ignoring the marriage. That's not something to be glossed over. To be honest, I'm dismayed at how many people thought nothing of interrogating the "evil" cheater, strapping her to a polygraph machine and going through her past messages, but didn't even think that the couple should sit down and have a mature conversation about what was happening before the affair.
> 
> If you're reading this, OP, and you feel comfortable, could you provide us with some background on what was going on in the marriage, why and how you were ignoring it? At the very least, you should talk about it with your wife.


Ignoring the marriage, or anything else, is not a valid reason to cheat. If you're not happy fix it or get out. Then you are free to do whatever you want. Failing a test is a ridiculous comparison to infidelity. A slightly better comparison may be plagiarizing a paper, which in most colleges will result in at least failing the class and possibly getting kicked out of school.

An affair isn't a mistake. It takes calculated planning, repeated lies and deception. Those aren't "mistakes". And in the case of this post, the cheater has been having an affair for 17 months! That is one hell of a "mistake". I think saying she has no character is warranted in this case and most others as well.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

fencewalker said:


> This is black and white thinking. If your child typically does well in school but fails a test, do you say he's a bad student? That he has no character? Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times? Respectfully, too many people on this website are so quick not only to judge but to give one bad decision the same weight as a thousand good ones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You may not have done exactly what the wife in this situation did, but I'm sure you've made foolish decisions in your life, that you temporarily lost your temper or your sense, that you've hurt people with or without meaning to. Would you like someone to cherrypick the mistakes you've made and then say you have no character?
> 
> I doubt even the OP would say his wife has no character. Such statements are overly simplistic and will do nothing to fix the situation. Communication will. By his own admission - and something that the rest of this forum completely ignored - the OP said he had been ignoring the marriage. That's not something to be glossed over. To be honest, I'm dismayed at how many people thought nothing of interrogating the "evil" cheater, strapping her to a polygraph machine and going through her past messages, but didn't even think that the couple should sit down and have a mature conversation about what was happening before the affair.
> 
> If you're reading this, OP, and you feel comfortable, could you provide us with some background on what was going on in the marriage, why and how you were ignoring it? At the very least, you should talk about it with your wife.


OP, if your wife at any time says something similar to this comment to you, divorce immediately because she is gaslighting you and not worth another minute of your time.


----------



## Evinrude58

fencewalker said:


> This is black and white thinking. If your child typically does well in school but fails a test, do you say he's a bad student? That he has no character? Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times? Respectfully, too many people on this website are so quick not only to judge but to give one bad decision the same weight as a thousand good ones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You may not have done exactly what the wife in this situation did, but I'm sure you've made foolish decisions in your life, that you temporarily lost your temper or your sense, that you've hurt people with or without meaning to. Would you like someone to cherrypick the mistakes you've made and then say you have no character?
> 
> I doubt even the OP would say his wife has no character. Such statements are overly simplistic and will do nothing to fix the situation. Communication will. By his own admission - and something that the rest of this forum completely ignored - the OP said he had been ignoring the marriage. That's not something to be glossed over. To be honest, I'm dismayed at how many people thought nothing of interrogating the "evil" cheater, strapping her to a polygraph machine and going through her past messages, but didn't even think that the couple should sit down and have a mature conversation about what was happening before the affair.
> 
> If you're reading this, OP, and you feel comfortable, could you provide us with some background on what was going on in the marriage, why and how you were ignoring it? At the very least, you should talk about it with your wife.


I apologize. I’m sure she has character. She might be a hard worker or very generous. But honesty and loyalty—- she’s lacking in.

btw, sitting down with a cheater and discussing what was wrong with the marriage before the cheating might be something discuss if one is reconciling and the infidelity has had consequences and been dealt with.... but I’m the context of the OP, it would be a waste of time. She’s still cheating and shows no remorse.

black and white thinking? Some things like infidelity—- there’s no shades of gray there—- it’s complete and utter disrespect and disloyalty of the highest degree. There’s no Bill Clintoning the situation and calling a blow job not really sex. Being with a person other than your spouse physically is cheating, and should be dealt with accordingly.
there’s no acceptable excuse.

Discussing marriage problems are things that loyal, respectful spouses do. Being unhappy with the marriage and screwing other people is what a person does that isn’t worth staying Married to.


----------



## Evinrude58

One discretion????????


----------



## jsmart

Was he ignoring the marriage or was he pulling away because he sensed she had pulled away from him as she attached to OM and reacted in kind. Sometimes we unconsciously know something is wrong and pull away as a defense mechanism. He probably figured, this is what marriage must be like. So he stayed loyal because it’s the right thing to do. Besides, why would he suspect that his new bride was already giving herself to another?


----------



## Tested_by_stress

jlg07 said:


> Sorry but this is complete horseshit. He DID NOT make her cheat in ANY WAY shape or form. If the marriage was so bad, she should have divorced him before seeking out someone else.
> 
> 
> It was 17 MONTHS of indiscretion, not a one night stand.


Quoted for truth. Asked for this? That's just ridiculous.


----------



## Harken Banks

fencewalker said:


> if you ignored the marriage then you asked for this.


Whatever. She probably ended the marriage with this. My heart goes out to you, OP. You will get through this.


----------



## fencewalker

jsmart said:


> Was he ignoring the marriage or was he pulling away because he sensed she had pulled away from him...


Absolutely no evidence for this anywhere in OP's post. This is baseless conjecture. The OP simply said he is somewhat to blame for ignoring the marriage and no one besides me even thinks that's something worth exploring. Truly amazing. Rather than asking the OP to elaborate on a relevant detail, everyone jumps on the polygraph bandwagon, wanting to strap the wife down and interrogate her. That is disgusting.


----------



## Harken Banks

fencewalker said:


> Absolutely no evidence for this anywhere in OP's post. This is baseless conjecture. The OP simply said he is somewhat to blame for ignoring the marriage and no one besides me even thinks that's something worth exploring. Truly amazing. Rather than asking the OP to elaborate on a relevant detail, everyone jumps on the polygraph bandwagon, wanting to strap the wife down and interrogate her. That is disgusting.


It's worth hearing what OP means by this. It seems to be pretty common for a spouse to feel blindsided and devastated by infidelity and as a reaction search for explanation in their own behavior. "It must have been something I did or did not do. This must be because I was not a good enough partner." Self-esteem takes a very serious hit in this process. There is usually a tremendous amount of self-doubt. It also seems the spouse who has gone outside the marriage will often seize on and seek to exploit this reaction. In the end it is just a rationalization for truly devastating and usually marriage-ending behavior, in my view. Super-sad and super-hard when young
kids are involved. Not quite in the category of not doing well on a school exam.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> Absolutely no evidence for this anywhere in OP's post. This is baseless conjecture. The OP simply said he is somewhat to blame for ignoring the marriage and no one besides me even thinks that's something worth exploring. Truly amazing. Rather than asking the OP to elaborate on a relevant detail, everyone jumps on the polygraph bandwagon, wanting to strap the wife down and interrogate her. That is disgusting.


Unless ignoring the marriage means complete abandonment of the marriage, as in walking out, there is no valid excuse for what she has done. She has spent the last 17 months sexting and exchanging explicit photos with a married man. Would could possibly be going on that could justify that?


----------



## Dictum Veritas

fencewalker said:


> Absolutely no evidence for this anywhere in OP's post. This is baseless conjecture. The OP simply said he is somewhat to blame for ignoring the marriage and no one besides me even thinks that's something worth exploring. Truly amazing. Rather than asking the OP to elaborate on a relevant detail, everyone jumps on the polygraph bandwagon, wanting to strap the wife down and interrogate her. That is disgusting.


NOTHING, NOTHING OP did in this marriage merits his wife giving her body and affection to another man while still married to him (even on the off-chance it was just images on the internet), potentially exposing him to deadly or life-long STDs and all other ramifications that go with infidelity. (Very little chance this didn't go physical in 17 months).

OP, Ignore this noise. You may be 50% to blame for what went wrong with the marriage, but your wife is 100% to blame for her infidelity.

In cases of infidelity, the marriage is killed by the wayward in the cruelest possible way to the betrayed. Very few marriages can be rebuilt from these ashes and in those that can, nothing can be fixed until the infidelity and the brokenness that caused it in the wayward is addressed and fixed first. Only then can any other marital issues be dealt with.

Ignore all victim blaming from anyone, friends, family or strangers on the internet. People who lived through it like myself and others will not lead you astray.


----------



## Evinrude58

Just divorce and move on. You likely are nothing but a provider and security blanket. There’s no love for you in a woman who’s doing this. Own your faults in the marriage and don’t repeat anything you feel was a mistake. But do not accept any blame for her cheating. And don’t give her a chance to betray you further. It hurts to have to move on, but you can, and have a happier life than living with a cheater.


----------



## ABHale

fencewalker said:


> Absolutely no evidence for this anywhere in OP's post. This is baseless conjecture. The OP simply said he is somewhat to blame for ignoring the marriage and no one besides me even thinks that's something worth exploring. Truly amazing. Rather than asking the OP to elaborate on a relevant detail, everyone jumps on the polygraph bandwagon, wanting to strap the wife down and interrogate her. That is disgusting.



🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

You are so delusional. 

It doesn’t matter if the cheater is male or female. The cheater is solely responsible for cheating. They had two options, either work it out with their spouse or leave the marriage. They chose to do the most devastating thing possible to someone they claim to love, they cheated. Once this happens, it no longer matters how it got to this point.


----------



## fencewalker

Harken Banks said:


> In the end it is just a rationalization for truly devastating and usually marriage-ending behavior, in my view.


Yes, in _your_ view; not in the words of the OP. Again, baseless conjecture.


----------



## fencewalker

ABHale said:


> It doesn’t matter if the cheater is male or female. The cheater is solely responsible for cheating. They had two options, either work it out with their spouse or leave the marriage. They chose to do the most devastating thing possible to someone they claim to love, they cheated. Once this happens, it no longer matters how it got to this point.


I didn't say anything about male or female. Not sure where that came from. And do you honestly think that the events leading up to some incident are irrelevant? It doesn't matter how it got to this point?


----------



## fencewalker

Dictum Veritas said:


> NOTHING, NOTHING OP did in this marriage merits his wife giving her body and affection to another man...


The fact of the matter is you don't know what the OP did and are not interested in finding out.


----------



## fencewalker

BigDaddyNY said:


> Unless ignoring the marriage means complete abandonment of the marriage, as in walking out, there is no valid excuse for what she has done. She has spent the last 17 months sexting and exchanging explicit photos with a married man. Would could possibly be going on that could justify that?


I don't know what was going on and I'm amazed at the complete lack of curiosity, even willingness on the part of the participants of this forum to recognize that it's a relevant issue. I guess we've made some progress, though. No one's talking about strapping the wife down to a polygraph test anymore.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

fencewalker said:


> It doesn't matter how it got to this point?


NO.

If the betrayed spouse is gracious enough to grant the wayward the GIFT of reconciliation and the character flaws that made the wayward able to ABUSE their spouse in arguable the most egregious way, on par with a husband repeatedly smashing a wife's head on a counter till her ears bleed, nightly for months is addressed and both have healed sufficiently in it to rebuild trust and affection; only then can other issues be addressed.

ETA:
To clarify, the definitive no given in this answer is because like in triage, other marital problems take a back-seat to getting out of infidelity and discussing it at any length will only serve as a fog of sorts in which the matters consequent to the main goal will be obscured; you have to stop arterial bleeding before you tend to the broken bones.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

fencewalker said:


> The fact of the matter is you don't know what the OP did and are not interested in finding out.


NO, not even in the slightest, until he gets himself out of the ABUSE he is suffering at the moment. Then he can learn from his mistakes and take the knowledge forward to better this or a future relationship.

The only focus for an abused spouse is to get out of the abuse. The OP's only focus and our only advice is to get him out of infidelity (which is spousal abuse by his wayward wife).

If you are a paramedic, you stop the major bleeding first before you focus on pimples.


----------



## Sfort

Dictum Veritas said:


> OP, Ignore this noise. You may be 50% to blame for what went wrong with the marriage, but your wife is 100% to blame for her infidelity.


This is where I need to be able to hit the "like" button ten or fifteen times.


----------



## fencewalker

I apologize if you feel that way. No offense was intended.


----------



## armycat26

Mtg2584 said:


> Hello, wife and I have been married for 10 years. We are In our late 30s. We have 3 young children together. Recently I found out that at the start of covid she befriended a colleague. When covid shut down the workplace they started texting daily with good mornings and general discussion. That somehow turned into sexting and picture exchanges. They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact. When the workplace opened up they saw each other daily and spoke about general everyday things and then they would go home and sext and exchange pics all night. It all came to an end when the man's wife found out who then contacted me. I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this. Both parties swear it never became physical but I will never know the truth. What about lunch breaks or walking out to the car at night after work. Their affair lasted 17 months. Not sure how i can come back from this. We've been seeing marriage counselors and individual therapy . I want to make it work and so does she but the thoughts won't leave my mind. It's been 2 months and everyday feels like the day I found out


wait ?? you are you blame also sorry i’m not buying into that,,, if she was feeling neglected in anyway she should’ve also said something,,, she is responsible for what she did you stop taking blame for what somebody else does


----------



## Mtg2584

fencewalker said:


> This is black and white thinking. If your child typically does well in school but fails a test, do you say he's a bad student? That he has no character? Does one indiscretion wipe out ten years of love and support and good times? Respectfully, too many people on this website are so quick not only to judge but to give one bad decision the same weight as a thousand good ones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You may not have done exactly what the wife in this situation did, but I'm sure you've made foolish decisions in your life, that you temporarily lost your temper or your sense, that you've hurt people with or without meaning to. Would you like someone to cherrypick the mistakes you've made and then say you have no character?
> 
> I doubt even the OP would say his wife has no character. Such statements are overly simplistic and will do nothing to fix the situation. Communication will. By his own admission - and something that the rest of this forum completely ignored - the OP said he had been ignoring the marriage. That's not something to be glossed over. To be honest, I'm dismayed at how many people thought nothing of interrogating the "evil" cheater, strapping her to a polygraph machine and going through her past messages, but didn't even think that the couple should sit down and have a mature conversation about what was happening before the affair.
> 
> If you're reading this, OP, and you feel comfortable, could you provide us with some background on what was going on in the marriage, why and how you were ignoring it? At the very least, you should talk about it with your wife.


Thanks for your post. Over the past 5 years I've been promoted year over year at a difficult stressful job and currently make 8x what I was making when we first were married. 12 to 14 hour days at work in finance. When I came home I was so stressed I really didn't want to talk about my.day and didn't want to hear about the household problems as I spent my days fixing problems elsewhere. I do recognize I made mistakes in the marriage as well. My wife was and is a good person other than she was lonely and the texting and compliments from.this person were like a drug for her. I do see that side of the story as like you said I do t want to throw 10 years and our children's future in the gutter if this is salvageable


----------



## ABHale

fencewalker said:


> I didn't say anything about male or female. Not sure where that came from. And do you honestly think that the events leading up to some incident are irrelevant? It doesn't matter how it got to this point?


It doesn’t matter after one cheats. There is never an excuse for cheating.


----------



## Harken Banks

fencewalker said:


> Yes, in _your_ view; not in the words of the OP. Again, baseless conjecture.


Well, it certainly is not baseless conjecture that it is devastating and usually marriage ending behavior. Nor is my view that people who engage in extramarital affairs often point to supposed causes or justifications that are rationalizations. That is a view informed by observation and experience.


----------



## fencewalker

Mtg2584 said:


> Thanks for your post. Over the past 5 years I've been promoted year over year at a difficult stressful job and currently make 8x what I was making when we first were married. 12 to 14 hour days at work in finance. When I came home I was so stressed I really didn't want to talk about my.day and didn't want to hear about the household problems as I spent my days fixing problems elsewhere. I do recognize I made mistakes in the marriage as well. My wife was and is a good person other than she was lonely and the texting and compliments from.this person were like a drug for her. I do see that side of the story as like you said I do t want to throw 10 years and our children's future in the gutter if this is salvageable


I think both sides here are understandable. It's hard to say no to extra work hours that cut into some family time when the financial rewards are so extravagant (and would of course help provide for the family). It's also hard to say no to a person who makes you feel wanted and desired when that attention is lacking at home. If this is the whole story then it definitely sounds salvageable to me. I've heard stories where one person's infidelity, even a drunken one-night stand, led the partner to become an absolute vindictive monster in return. I'm glad to hear you haven't become that. You can still recognize that your wife is fundamentally a good person and you can see her side of it as well. From what you've said so far, I believe that if you do stick it out, your relationship will be better for it because I'm sure the lesson of communication has not been lost to either of you. You need to be open to talking to your wife about simple things like how her day was, even if you're tired. Your wife also needs to be honest about her feelings and let you know when she is not feeling loved. 

You mentioned how it's months later now and every day feels like the first day you found out. You have gone to therapy. That's important and you should continue going, but it does also mean you're constantly talking about and reliving the episode. It might be a good idea to go out as a family, decide not to think about anything for a couple hours, and just have fun. Make some new memories that you can then associate with your wife and remember what things can be. It is possible.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

fencewalker said:


> I think *both sides here are understandable*. *[Blame Shifting]* It's hard to say no to extra work hours that cut into some family time when the financial rewards are so extravagant (and would of course help provide for the family). It's also hard to say no to a person who makes you feel wanted and desired when that attention is lacking at home. If this is the whole story then it definitely sounds salvageable to me. *I've heard stories where one person's infidelity, even a drunken one-night stand, led the partner to become an absolute vindictive monster in return. [Anacdotal]* I'm glad to hear you haven't become that. You can still recognize that your wife is fundamentally a good person and you can see her side of it as well. From what you've said so far, I believe that if you do stick it out, your relationship will be better for it because I'm sure the lesson of communication has not been lost to either of you. You need to be open to talking to your wife about simple things like how her day was, even if you're tired. Your wife also needs to be honest about her feelings and let you know when she is not feeling loved.
> 
> You mentioned how it's months later now and every day feels like the first day you found out. *You have gone to therapy. That's important and you should continue going [Good Advice] *, but it does also mean you're constantly talking about and reliving the episode. *It might be a good idea to go out as a family, decide not to think about anything for a couple hours, and just have fun. Make some new memories that you can then associate with your wife and remember what things can be. It is possible. *_*[Advice to do the "Pick-Me" dance and rug-sweep]*_


@Mtg2584 , the quoted advice given to you is partly blame shifting (you worked to benefit your family, that does not make her having an affair understandable at all), partly anecdotal and mostly advice for you to rug-sweep the affair and do the "pick-me" dance.

Again and please let this sink in, the problems in the marriage may be 50% your fault, but her cheating on you, that is 100% on her. Cheating is spousal abuse just as sure as hitting your spouse with a baseball bat is. Do you think you would be advised to simply forget it if your wife hit you randomly, with a baseball bat over and over for the last 17 or so months? Would taking the family out to make new memories while still walking into a baseball bat she is swinging help?

Imagine the pain of that bat hitting your chest. Now compare it to the emotional pain you are suffering, the sorrow, insecurity, uncertainty about your future, emasculation, anger, nausea and inability to sleep. Which of these two forms of pain would be easier for you to deal with?

Just like you should not put up with being hit with a baseball bat, likewise should you not put up with a spouse who would cause you your current pain through her cheating. There is something broken in her that makes her this selfish and allows her to abuse you in this fashion. Before this is not fixed *in her* she will not be a safe partner to you and might at any time take out that proverbial baseball bat and swing at you again.

If you follow advice to rug-sweep (forgive and "forget") without consequences to her, she would only have learned that you are a door-mat and that she can get away with betraying you. Chances are high that if you do not dance to the tune she is playing for any reason (even one she makes up in her mind because she met a new man or feels like a bit of fun) she will cheat again (most likely never end this affair), unless she sees real consequences for her betrayal and has extensive therapy to fix what is broken in her.

Rug sweeping may also lead you to feel that there is no equality left in your marriage, that she went and had her fun while you were a dutiful husband. This feeling can fester over years and lead to an emotional boil that may violently pop somewhere down the road with disastrous consequences to your entire family.

The "Pick-Me" dance NEVER works. You can not nice them back. In fact, this makes a woman lose total respect for you and drives them away completely and into the arms of lover-boy. Women cannot stand a man who cannot stand up for himself. She is abusing you and no matter her platitudes, she knows it. If you cannot stand up to her and her abuse, in her mind, you do not deserve her. In this the nice husband always looses because the old and comfortable stands no chance against the new and exciting unless he stands up for himself.

In matters of infidelity, you have to risk loosing the marriage in order to save it and strong action for yourself (not her) is the way to do it. She will only want you again if there is a real risk of loosing you.

@Mtg2584 , you are currently in a one sided open-marriage. You never agreed to this as she has broken the vows you have made to each other when getting married. She has blown that marriage apart and deep down, you know that to be true. You can not move forward while stagnant in enduring abuse. You can not wish this away and rug-sweep. Your only way forward is to get out of infidelity and you cannot do so while your wife is in an active affair.

You cannot control your wife. you can only control your own actions and choices. Right now, the only wise choices are to actively take steps to break the affair up, or divorce and get out of the situation.

In order to break up the affair:

*Exposure* - You need to *expose* it for what it is to family and friends and if you are dead-set against divorce, at their place of employment. Affairs like mushrooms thrive in the dark. Once brought into the cleansing light of day they shrivel and die. By keeping her affair a secret, you are helping her and her lover boy to conduct that affair.

*NC* - There must be *N*o more *C*ontact between your wife and lover boy. Nothing, not so much as a glance across a room or a "how's your uncle". While they are still in any sort of contact, their feelings will linger and be renewed and the affair is ongoing. Since they work together, she will have to resign.

*Full access to all her devices, social media accounts, messenger apps and email accounts*. Your wife has shown you she is not trust-worthy. Believe her. You will have to take on the role of marriage police for a good long while and until trust can be forged again. This might be years (3-5 years is a common consensus) . You need this access to monitor verify that your wife is indeed NC with the POSOM and does not engage in similar with other men. You have the right to use this access to find out the truth and extent of your wife's betrayal. This is not snooping since she has lost the right to privacy the moment she stepped into infidelity.

*Lawyer* - Consult with a lawyer to find out what divorce will look like, what your custody right and financial situation would be. I would say serve her with divorce papers. There is nothing that will shock a wayward back to reality quicker than the realization that their actions is costing them their spouse and comfortable family life.

*STD Test* - Both you and her must take an STD test. Those bugs are nasty and some of them kill. This is serious. This has been going on for 17 months. Adults with feelings for each other don't blush and giggle like early teenagers. If they are in physical contact, they find a way to have sex. Having her take an STD test will also drive home to her that you don't believe her and that her actions has shattered your trust in her. She needs to know that this is not a game and that there are consequences to her actions.

These are but a few initial steps that need to be taken in order to get yourself out of infidelity. They are the same whether you ultimately decide to R or D.

I am sorry to say, but as easy and nice as it sounds. Rug-sweeping and the pick-me dance have the opposite effect of what you want them to have. It might sound counter intuitive, but really when infidelity occurs, the marriage is already dead. The body may still be warm and fresh, but the brain is dead and the heart is not beating. It is possible to build a new marriage, but not until the killer is contained (the affair is truly over) and the corpse is buried (your wife's brokenness that allowed her to cheat is dealt with and both of you have healed from this in IC).

You really must kill this affair and act to protect yourself if you want any chance of having a new relationship with your wife and that means doing things you won't like to do, risking the marriage in order to save it. This does not sound as flowery and Disney like as rug-sweeping can be painted as or giving someone hope that the pick-me dance may work, but it is reality and how people who followed this approach have gotten out of infidelity and healthy in both [R]econciliation and [D]ivorce, time and time again.


----------



## Beach123

Mtg2584 said:


> No she is basically now just a stay at home mom. She doesn't want to go anywhere without me. She is hurt that she hurt Me. Admitted everything and volunteered information that I would have never known about .


You mean she admitted what she wanted you to know. 
She isn’t hurt that she hurt you - or she wouldn’t have continuously done it to you for 17 months!

Here’s the reality… she is sorry she got caught! That is all! 
Give her severe consequences and quit being so whimpy! She been walking all over you and now you feel sorry for HER! Sheez, quit being a huge doormat!


----------



## Dictum Veritas

@Mtg2584 , please read No More Mr. Nice Guy (<- Link) by Robert Glover. Just do this one thing for yourself as soon as possible.

There are other sites where you can download it for free if you google it.


----------



## ABHale

fencewalker said:


> I think both sides here are understandable. It's hard to say no to extra work hours that cut into some family time when the financial rewards are so extravagant (and would of course help provide for the family). It's also hard to say no to a person who makes you feel wanted and desired when that attention is lacking at home. If this is the whole story then it definitely sounds salvageable to me. I've heard stories where one person's infidelity, even a drunken one-night stand, led the partner to become an absolute vindictive monster in return. I'm glad to hear you haven't become that. You can still recognize that your wife is fundamentally a good person and you can see her side of it as well. From what you've said so far, I believe that if you do stick it out, your relationship will be better for it because I'm sure the lesson of communication has not been lost to either of you. You need to be open to talking to your wife about simple things like how her day was, even if you're tired. Your wife also needs to be honest about her feelings and let you know when she is not feeling loved.
> 
> You mentioned how it's months later now and every day feels like the first day you found out. You have gone to therapy. That's important and you should continue going, but it does also mean you're constantly talking about and reliving the episode. It might be a good idea to go out as a family, decide not to think about anything for a couple hours, and just have fun. Make some new memories that you can then associate with your wife and remember what things can be. It is possible.


It isn’t hard to say no to the start of an affair if the person has integrity and morals. I have done so a couple of times, even with my wife taking me for granted and being at the bottom of her priorities. 

Your excuse for her cheating is ********.


----------



## ABHale

When do you get the results from the polygraph?


----------



## Beach123

When does she get consequences? 

No/small consequences = she will cheat again.

Get to counseling. You need work on your self esteem. You also need help recognizing her lies and manipulation.

This gal is snowing you big time!

Get her working again! When you divorce her you want her earning her own money or you’ll be paying big spousal support.


----------



## Idyit

When the pilot tells you she flew the plane into the ground it’s not necessary to investigate the maintenance records or tire pressure of the aircraft. She flew that marriage into the ground.


----------



## Mr.Married

And still no polygraph.
Whatever........


----------



## Kamstel2

How did the polygraph go?

EDIT: sorry Mr. Married. I didn’t see your post


----------



## Blondilocks

Your wife needs to get a job. What do you think is occupying her mind nowadays? I hope you have your home security cameras buttoned up.


----------



## wagon maker

u say u have 10 yrs unvested in this marriage, it sounds like she is truly sorry for hurting u, u said u ignored the marriage, then it is as much your fault as hers, what would u expect if u ignored your wife? u have 3 kids, u need to forgive, but u will never forget, but don't keep bringing it up. it sounds like she is trying to make it up to u, u should let her


----------



## ABHale

wagon maker said:


> u say u have 10 yrs unvested in this marriage, it sounds like she is truly sorry for hurting u, u said u ignored the marriage, then it is as much your fault as hers, what would u expect if u ignored your wife? u have 3 kids, u need to forgive, but u will never forget, but don't keep bringing it up. it sounds like she is trying to make it up to u, u should let her


So it is his fault she cheated?

Or

Was it his fault the marriage was in trouble?

You’re 100% wrong if you think it’s his fault she cheated.

The other point is that his cheating wife has to earn R. If she isn’t doing a damn thing to fix what she has broken, she doesn’t deserve it. 

Forgiveness comes in time with healing. If his wife isn’t doing anything that shows remorse, it will take longer for him to forgive.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

A BS in shock and wanting their wives and marriages back almost invariably tries to find the cause of the infidelity in themselves. They do so because if they were the cause, they know that they can make changes in themselves and hope those changes will save the marriage.

This is never the case because the BS has NO FAULT in the infidelity of their significant other.

Unfortunately the moment a BS in shock, who doesn't realize that nothing that he has done deserves him/her to be cheated on mentions his faults, the victim blamers jump on the BS telling him that he is at fault for the infidelity.

The people blaming the victim of infidelity have either not been through infidelity themselves and have no understanding of the subject or are only interested in venting anger to the detriment of the BS.

OP, ignore everybody blaming you for your wife's choices. She could have talked to you to find a solution or divorced you like an honorable human being. Nothing you did puts you in a position of blame for her infidelity and those who say differently are not helping you at all.


----------



## Mtg2584

Dictum Veritas said:


> A BS in shock and wanting their wives and marriages back almost invariably tries to find the cause of the infidelity in themselves. They do so because if they were the cause, they know that they can make changes in themselves and hope those changes will save the marriage.
> 
> This is never the case because the BS has NO FAULT in the infidelity of their significant other.
> 
> Unfortunately the moment a BS in shock, who doesn't realize that nothing that he has done deserves him/her to be cheated on mentions his faults, the victim blamers jump on the BS telling him that he is at fault for the infidelity.
> 
> The people blaming the victim of infidelity have either not been through infidelity themselves and have no understanding of the subject or are only interested in venting anger to the detriment of the BS.
> 
> OP, ignore everybody blaming you for your wife's choices. She could have talked to you to find a solution or divorced you like an honorable human being. Nothing you did puts you in a position of blame for her infidelity and those who say differently are not helping you at all.


I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work. If I can forgive and maybe one day forget. I don't want to throw away our good memories. I know many people who made it work after infidelity. I guess every situation is different. Came on here to find ways to cope and understand. Maybe even seeking a female to help me with the mental state my wife may have been in. I know every guy including myself would be the first to say leave the cheating liar.


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work. If I can forgive and maybe one day forget. I don't want to throw away our good memories. I know many people who made it work after infidelity. I guess every situation is different. Came on here to find ways to cope and understand. Maybe even seeking a female to help me with the mental state my wife may have been in. I know every guy including myself would be the first to say leave the cheating liar.


I’m female and your wife loved the ego kibbles. She loved another man was making her feel sexy. She did it because she wanted to. You will never forget. Forgive perhaps but never forget.


----------



## Harken Banks

Mtg2584 said:


> I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work. If I can forgive and maybe one day forget. I don't want to throw away our good memories. I know many people who made it work after infidelity. I guess every situation is different. Came on here to find ways to cope and understand. Maybe even seeking a female to help me with the mental state my wife may have been in. I know every guy including myself would be the first to say leave the cheating liar.


I think this is right. What is important is how you manage this trauma, which should not be underestimated. People manage it differently. But there is a lot of knowledge here from people with experience.


----------



## Kaliber

Mtg2584 said:


> I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work.


I don't believe she is in love with you, if she is, she will never ever cheat on you.
If you have experience in relationships you will know that this statement is very true for women!


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Mtg2584 said:


> I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work. If I can forgive and maybe one day forget. I don't want to throw away our good memories. I know many people who made it work after infidelity. I guess every situation is different. Came on here to find ways to cope and understand. Maybe even seeking a female to help me with the mental state my wife may have been in. I know every guy including myself would be the first to say leave the cheating liar.


You have NO idea what remorse even *is*, and she doesn't have an ounce of it. Good grief, you're trying so desperately to spackle this mess back together and delude yourself into believing she's actually worth it. Good luck with that.

Sadly, you'll be eating a diet of **** sandwiches for a long, long time.


----------



## Marc878

Most betrayed spouses jump at the chance to take the blame for an affair. I think in part it’s “if I broke it I can fix it”. Faulty thinking from what I’ve seen.


----------



## samyeagar

Marc878 said:


> Most betrayed spouses jump at the chance to take the blame for an affair. I think in part it’s “if I broke it I can fix it”. Faulty thinking from what I’ve seen.


It is a very visceral defense mechanism to help ease the trauma. Their partner cheated on them, betrayed their trust at the most base level, and that is something completely beyond the betrayed spouses control. Trying to accept the blame for the affair is an attempt at trying to gain some level of control over a situation in which they have no power or control.

This is one of the reasons why reconciliation is so difficult for most people and often takes a huge psychological toll on the betrayed spouse. They have created a reality for themselves, an almost disconnected reality in which they feel as if they are exerting some level of control, only to repeatedly be faced with actual reality, and the constant internal mental conflict of trying to reconcile in their own minds between the false reality they are attempting to create, and the actual reality they have to see with their own eyes.

It just gets exhausting juggling and trying to reconcile irreconcilable differences.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> I think both sides here are understandable. It's hard to say no to extra work hours that cut into some family time when the financial rewards are so extravagant (and would of course help provide for the family). It's also hard to say no to a person who makes you feel wanted and desired when that attention is lacking at home. If this is the whole story then it definitely sounds salvageable to me. I've heard stories where one person's infidelity, even a drunken one-night stand, led the partner to become an absolute vindictive monster in return. I'm glad to hear you haven't become that. You can still recognize that your wife is fundamentally a good person and you can see her side of it as well. From what you've said so far, I believe that if you do stick it out, your relationship will be better for it because I'm sure the lesson of communication has not been lost to either of you. You need to be open to talking to your wife about simple things like how her day was, even if you're tired. Your wife also needs to be honest about her feelings and let you know when she is not feeling loved.
> 
> You mentioned how it's months later now and every day feels like the first day you found out. You have gone to therapy. That's important and you should continue going, but it does also mean you're constantly talking about and reliving the episode. It might be a good idea to go out as a family, decide not to think about anything for a couple hours, and just have fun. Make some new memories that you can then associate with your wife and remember what things can be. It is possible.


I'm curious, have you ever been cheated on while in a long term relationship?


----------



## ArthurGPym

Mtg2584 said:


> I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work. If I can forgive and maybe one day forget. I don't want to throw away our good memories. I know many people who made it work after infidelity. I guess every situation is different. Came on here to find ways to cope and understand. Maybe even seeking a female to help me with the mental state my wife may have been in. I know every guy including myself would be the first to say leave the cheating liar.


I wish you luck, but don't hope for it. Long ago when I caught my ex-wife cheating on me, I too did all the things I thought we could do to save the marriage. We spent thousands on counseling and classes, and I spent a year watching her like a parole officer. She tried hard. In the end, after the shock and trauma wore off, I ended up with a huge amount of anger that I could not control. That is what ended up causing me to walk away. You have not really hit the anger part yet. I hope when you do get there that you can pull through it.


----------



## Mtg2584

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm curious, have you ever been cheated on while in a long term relationship?


No I haven't ever been cheated on..


----------



## Torninhalf

Mtg2584 said:


> No I haven't ever been cheated on..


Well you have now been cheated on.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> No I haven't ever been cheated on..


I was asking @fencewalker 
Just curious if he is giving advice with any experience. 

I know you have been cheated on.


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> I am not looking to point blame to either side.. I know I made mistakes with the marriage and she is remorseful and admits her fault with the cheating. We are both still in love and trying to make it work. If I can forgive and maybe one day forget. I don't want to throw away our good memories. I know many people who made it work after infidelity. I guess every situation is different. Came on here to find ways to cope and understand. *Maybe even seeking a female to help me with the mental state my wife may have been in.* I know every guy including myself would be the first to say leave the cheating liar.


You will never find that answer.

Your wife cheated because she wanted to and didn’t believe you would leave if caught.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

ABHale said:


> You will never find that answer.
> 
> Your wife cheated because she wanted to and didn’t believe you would leave if caught.


Looks like she gambled and won. Unless something changes, she's going to pull the lever on the one armed bandit again pretty soon. Perhaps the moment the dust settles.


----------



## Harken Banks

ABHale said:


> You will never find that answer.
> 
> Your wife cheated because she wanted to and didn’t believe you would leave if caught.


In a nutshell.


----------



## fencewalker

BigDaddyNY said:


> I was asking @fencewalker
> Just curious if he is giving advice with any experience.
> 
> I know you have been cheated on.


The short answer is no, I have not been cheated on. But as you may have guessed, my views on relationships are more fluid and forgiving than most people on this website. If two people are more inclined to a closed relationship where any emotional or physical attachment to someone else is out of bounds, that's cool and I wouldn't want to force my preference on anyone else. The OP clearly wants his relationship to be that way and that's fine. What I would emphasize is that this arrangement is difficult even under the best of circumstances (even the most enthusiastic supporters of strict monogamy would admit it's not easy) and at least some effort should be made to listen to the other person's feelings and to look at the events leading up to an unpleasant incident when it does occur. If the OP ultimately decides that the affair is too much to get past or that he does not want to risk his wife doing the same thing again, that's perfectly understandable. What bothers me is how many people are so quick to throw out years of affection without a second thought. Infidelity = Divorce. Period. Facts don't matter. Details are a nuisance. In my opinion, this sort of black-and-white thinking, which unfortunately is propogated endlessly in our culture, is the cause of more heartbreak and drama than anything else. I cringe when I hear stories about couples who had thirty or more good years together and then one was immediately thrown to the curb penniless after ultimately giving in to a very natural human urge. There are many who read these stories, many in this forum no doubt, who cheer wildly and encourage this sort of behavior. That's gross. OP, work with your wife, talk about what happened, and then make your decision.


----------



## Harken Banks

fencewalker said:


> The short answer is no, I have not been cheated on. But as you may have guessed, my views on relationships are more fluid and forgiving than most people on this website. If two people are more inclined to a closed relationship where any emotional or physical attachment to someone else is out of bounds, that's cool and I wouldn't want to force my preference on anyone else. The OP clearly wants his relationship to be that way and that's fine. What I would emphasize is that this arrangement is difficult even under the best of circumstances (even the most enthusiastic supporters of strict monogamy would admit it's not easy) and at least some effort should be made to listen to the other person's feelings and to look at the events leading up to an unpleasant incident when it does occur. If the OP ultimately decides that the affair is too much to get past or that he does not want to risk his wife doing the same thing again, that's perfectly understandable. What bothers me is how many people are so quick to throw out years of affection without a second thought. Infidelity = Divorce. Period. Facts don't matter. Details are a nuisance. In my opinion, this sort of black-and-white thinking, which unfortunately is propogated endlessly in our culture, is the cause of more heartbreak and drama than anything else. I cringe when I hear stories about couples who had thirty or more good years together and then one was immediately thrown to the curb penniless after ultimately giving in to a very natural human urge. There are many who read these stories, many in this forum no doubt, who cheer wildly and encourage this sort of behavior. That's gross. OP, work with your wife, talk about what happened, and then make your decision.


I might have had a view like yours before I experienced infidelity. It is rather simplistic and unexamined. I am still married. It has been excruciating hell. At the time we had 4 young daughters. It was a mess. Took a massive toll on me. Still does through every day and every night all these many years later. I had no idea what I was in for. I reacted initially much the way OP has.


----------



## Evinrude58

You have no idea what you’re forgiving. You certainly will never forget.
Rug sweeping this will have you back here within a couple of years at most.
No consequences = no change in behavior.


----------



## Evinrude58

fencewalker said:


> The short answer is no, I have not been cheated on. But as you may have guessed, my views on relationships are more fluid and forgiving than most people on this website. If two people are more inclined to a closed relationship where any emotional or physical attachment to someone else is out of bounds, that's cool and I wouldn't want to force my preference on anyone else. The OP clearly wants his relationship to be that way and that's fine. What I would emphasize is that this arrangement is difficult even under the best of circumstances (even the most enthusiastic supporters of strict monogamy would admit it's not easy) and at least some effort should be made to listen to the other person's feelings and to look at the events leading up to an unpleasant incident when it does occur. If the OP ultimately decides that the affair is too much to get past or that he does not want to risk his wife doing the same thing again, that's perfectly understandable. What bothers me is how many people are so quick to throw out years of affection without a second thought. Infidelity = Divorce. Period. Facts don't matter. Details are a nuisance. In my opinion, this sort of black-and-white thinking, which unfortunately is propogated endlessly in our culture, is the cause of more heartbreak and drama than anything else. I cringe when I hear stories about couples who had thirty or more good years together and then one was immediately thrown to the curb penniless after ultimately giving in to a very natural human urge. There are many who read these stories, many in this forum no doubt, who cheer wildly and encourage this sort of behavior. That's gross. OP, work with your wife, talk about what happened, and then make your decision.


It’s because infidelity is so incredibly hurtful. It’s the utmost betrayal one can experience.
OP thinks he and his wife are “much in love”, but once a woman gives her feelings to another man, the feelings she once had for her husband are usually gone. She destroyed those feelings by allowing another man to occupy her thoughts.
Monogamy wasn’t hard at all for me. My mind was on my family, work, enjoying my hobbies. I didn’t have time nor inclination to chase other women. I liked being married, liked having a woman to come home to.
MTD is thinking this affair is behind him. It went on that he knows of for 17 months, and he’s so anxious to put it behind him he doesn’t even want to know the full extent of his wife’s betrayal. 
The problem is that what his wife did has inexplicably changed her. He taking her back immediately and moving forward, is e trembly unlikely to work.
Whatever caused her to cheat before is still there. It wasn’t him ignoring her, it wasn’t him doing x,y, or z, or not doing something.

She wanted another man. Her feelings for MTD didn’t stop her. The feelings for her husband weren’t strong enough.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> The short answer is no, I have not been cheated on. But as you may have guessed, my views on relationships are more fluid and forgiving than most people on this website. If two people are more inclined to a closed relationship where any emotional or physical attachment to someone else is out of bounds, that's cool and I wouldn't want to force my preference on anyone else. The OP clearly wants his relationship to be that way and that's fine. What I would emphasize is that this arrangement is difficult even under the best of circumstances (even the most enthusiastic supporters of strict monogamy would admit it's not easy) and at least some effort should be made to listen to the other person's feelings and to look at the events leading up to an unpleasant incident when it does occur. If the OP ultimately decides that the affair is too much to get past or that he does not want to risk his wife doing the same thing again, that's perfectly understandable. What bothers me is how many people are so quick to throw out years of affection without a second thought. Infidelity = Divorce. Period. Facts don't matter. Details are a nuisance. In my opinion, this sort of black-and-white thinking, which unfortunately is propogated endlessly in our culture, is the cause of more heartbreak and drama than anything else. I cringe when I hear stories about couples who had thirty or more good years together and then one was immediately thrown to the curb penniless after ultimately giving in to a very natural human urge. There are many who read these stories, many in this forum no doubt, who cheer wildly and encourage this sort of behavior. That's gross. OP, work with your wife, talk about what happened, and then make your decision.


I am an enthusiastic supporter of monogamy, and it is actually quite easy. However, it takes a conscious effort, lying and deceit to cheat. It makes your life much more complicated. It requires that your lust overcome your love for your spouse. It requires that you consciously choose another person over your spouse. I don't believe that just happens. Every step into the affair has a decision point where things could be stopped and requires conscious effort to keep it progressing. The easy path is staying loyal to the one you love and shared vows with. 

I will agree that divorce may not be the right path in every situation, but without even the threat of it what consequences are there for a cheater? She got caught after 17 MONTHS and was embarrassed, done, all the rest of the work you are putting onto the betrayed person who has already suffered one of the worst imaginable pains life. Now they have to fix it too? 

Everything you have posted here seems to be creating an excuse for the cheater and putting the onus of fixing the marriage on the betrayed. That just seems so upside down. 

Every rule we have in society is designed to curb human animalistic behavior. "Giving in to a very natural human urge" is a big deal not to be taken lightly. I know it is extreme, but the rapist gave into a human urge. That certainly isn't okay. Even something minor, I'm in a hurry so I'm going to blow through this red light, has a consequence. 

So I ask, what is the consequence for the cheater in your view?
Also, glad you've never been cheated on, but have you every been guilty of cheating?


----------



## Sfort

Harken Banks said:


> I might have had a view like yours before I experienced infidelity. It is rather simplistic and unexamined. I am still married. It has been excruciating hell. At the time we had 4 young daughters. It was a mess. Took a massive toll on me. Still does through every day and every night all these many years later. I had no idea what I was in for. I reacted initially much the way OP has.


In retrospect, what would you do differently? (Not a TJ. Good info for OP).


----------



## Harken Banks

Sfort said:


> In retrospect, what would you do differently? (Not a TJ. Good info for OP).


I was pretty naive about the psychology and behavioral truths. I would pay more attention to those. I definitely would have avoided marriage counselors who seemed to think it would be better if I did not find out about the affair.


----------



## Sfort

Harken Banks said:


> I was pretty naive about the psychology and behavioral truths. I would pay more attention to those. I definitely would have avoided marriage counselors who seemed to think it would be better if I did not find out about the affair.


Would you have remained married?


----------



## GoldenR

The cheater's apologist has not been cheated on. Imagine that.


----------



## ABHale

fencewalker said:


> The short answer is no, I have not been cheated on. But as you may have guessed, my views on relationships are more fluid and forgiving than most people on this website. If two people are more inclined to a closed relationship where any emotional or physical attachment to someone else is out of bounds, that's cool and I wouldn't want to force my preference on anyone else. The OP clearly wants his relationship to be that way and that's fine. What I would emphasize is that this arrangement is difficult even under the best of circumstances (even the most enthusiastic supporters of strict monogamy would admit it's not easy) and at least some effort should be made to listen to the other person's feelings and to look at the events leading up to an unpleasant incident when it does occur. If the OP ultimately decides that the affair is too much to get past or that he does not want to risk his wife doing the same thing again, that's perfectly understandable. What bothers me is how many people are so quick to throw out years of affection without a second thought. Infidelity = Divorce. Period. Facts don't matter. Details are a nuisance. In my opinion, this sort of black-and-white thinking, which unfortunately is propogated endlessly in our culture, is the cause of more heartbreak and drama than anything else. I cringe when I hear stories about couples who had thirty or more good years together and then one was immediately thrown to the curb penniless after ultimately giving in to a very natural human urge. There are many who read these stories, many in this forum no doubt, who cheer wildly and encourage this sort of behavior. That's gross. OP, work with your wife, talk about what happened, and then make your decision.



I thought you told me you were cheated on when you responded to a quote????


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ABHale said:


> I thought you told me you were cheated on when you responded to a quote????


When answering my question about it the response was "short answer is no". So maybe the long answer is a little different?


----------



## Dictum Veritas

BigDaddyNY said:


> When answering my question about it the response was "short answer is no". So maybe the long answer is a little different?


I just want to get this straight. He has not been cheated when he's been cheated on?

Sorry edited this because I made a mistake as to the source of the quote. Sometimes late nights are counter productive.


----------



## ABHale

fencewalker said:


> The fact of the matter is you don't know what the OP did and are not interested in finding out.


So go ahead and blame the OP for being a complete piece of **** husband and he deserved to be cheated on by his wife. He should be kissing her ass and begging her to stay.

OP did nothing to cause his wife to cheat. It isn’t his fault she decided to be another man’s ho ho ho.


----------



## gr8ful1

wagon maker said:


> u say u have 10 yrs unvested in this marriage, it sounds like she is truly sorry for hurting u, u said u ignored the marriage, then it is as much your fault as hers, what would u expect if u ignored your wife? u have 3 kids, u need to forgive, but u will never forget, but don't keep bringing it up. it sounds like she is trying to make it up to u, u should let her


Is this the WW? Or did some clarion call for adulterous apologists go out to the world to gather them here on this thread??

OP: please do NOT listen to such posts (with a whopping post count of 5) blameshifting this abuse to you and advising you to rugsweep. LISTEN to the many who’ve been through this who are begging you stand strong, get the poly done, and let the natural consequences for her actions apply. 

Seriously: consequences are the MOST LOVING thing you can do here. If your kid runs haphazardly into the street, nearly getting hit by a car, would you follow the above advice? “Never forget, but don’t bring it up”. Don’t think so. THE most loving thing you could to is to bring a consequence to your child so they LEARN. Of course your wife is not your child, but the principle still applies - the consequence is for their ultimate good. Rug-sweeping is for her (and your) ultimate bad.


----------



## fencewalker

Evinrude58 said:


> OP thinks he and his wife are “much in love”, but once a woman gives her feelings to another man, the feelings she once had for her husband are usually gone.


This is probably the biggest difference between me and the others here. I do not believe love is a zero-sum game. It certainly doesn't _have _to be.



BigDaddyNY said:


> Every rule we have in society is designed to curb human animalistic behavior. "Giving in to a very natural human urge" is a big deal not to be taken lightly. I know it is extreme, but the rapist gave into a human urge. That certainly isn't okay.


With rape, you're forcing someone to have sex with you against their will. That's not what we're talking about here. But you're right, we have rules to curb some of our behavior which may hurt others. However, not everyone is hurt by the same things or to the same degree so the rules don't have to be the same in every relationship.



BigDaddyNY said:


> So I ask, what is the consequence for the cheater in your view?


That's up to the individuals in the relationship and every relationship will be different. There are some people who don't mind letting their partners go off and have fun and also want to have fun themselves, so in those relationships there will be no consequences. Others are not so easy going but are not super restrictive either. Most people on this website definitely don't fall into either of those categories. They don't want to see their partners have sex, kiss, hug, send explicit texts to, receive explicit texts from, go out with, or flirt with anyone else. Ever. Period. It's your prerogative to establish the rules as you see fit. I'm just saying the tougher your rules are, the tougher it's going to be for somebody down the line, even if they went into the relationship very much in love. Maybe when your partner who has supported you and loved you and raised children with you for fifteen years goes off and has a fling, it's not because they're a colossal piece of ****. Maybe the rules were too strict to begin with.


----------



## Torninhalf

fencewalker said:


> This is probably the biggest difference between me and the others here. I do not believe love is a zero-sum game. It certainly doesn't _have _to be.
> 
> 
> 
> With rape, you're forcing someone to have sex with you against their will. That's not what we're talking about here. But you're right, we have rules to curb some of our behavior which may hurt others. However, not everyone is hurt by the same things or to the same degree so the rules don't have to be the same in every relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> That's up to the individuals in the relationship and every relationship will be different. There are some people who don't mind letting their partners go off and have fun and also want to have fun themselves, so in those relationships there will be no consequences. Others are not so easy going but are not super restrictive either. Most people on this website definitely don't fall into either of those categories. They don't want to see their partners have sex, kiss, hug, send explicit texts to, receive explicit texts from, go out with, or flirt with anyone else. Ever. Period. It's your prerogative to establish the rules as you see fit. I'm just saying the tougher your rules are, the tougher it's going to be for somebody down the line, even if they went into the relationship very much in love. Maybe when your partner who has supported you and loved you and raised children with you for fifteen years goes off and has a fling, it's not because they're a colossal piece of ****. Maybe the rules were too strict to begin with.


Oh just stop. Seriously. The rules were to strict? Get out of here with your crap. Seriously. Go away.


----------



## GoldenR

If the rules were too strict, then they shouldnt have said "I do" when asked if they would adhere to the rules.


----------



## Evinrude58

fencewalker said:


> This is probably the biggest difference between me and the others here. I do not believe love is a zero-sum game. It certainly doesn't _have _to be.
> 
> 
> 
> With rape, you're forcing someone to have sex with you against their will. That's not what we're talking about here. But you're right, we have rules to curb some of our behavior which may hurt others. However, not everyone is hurt by the same things or to the same degree so the rules don't have to be the same in every relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> That's up to the individuals in the relationship and every relationship will be different. There are some people who don't mind letting their partners go off and have fun and also want to have fun themselves, so in those relationships there will be no consequences. Others are not so easy going but are not super restrictive either. Most people on this website definitely don't fall into either of those categories. They don't want to see their partners have sex, kiss, hug, send explicit texts to, receive explicit texts from, go out with, or flirt with anyone else. Ever. Period. It's your prerogative to establish the rules as you see fit. I'm just saying the tougher your rules are, the tougher it's going to be for somebody down the line, even if they went into the relationship very much in love. Maybe when your partner who has supported you and loved you and raised children with you for fifteen years goes off and has a fling, it's not because they're a colossal piece of ****. Maybe the rules were too strict to begin with.


No, it’s because they’re a colossal POS.


----------



## fencewalker

Torninhalf said:


> Oh just stop. Seriously. The rules were to strict? Get out of here with your crap. Seriously. Go away.


No you go away


----------



## Torninhalf

fencewalker said:


> No you go away


Explain to us again how the rules in marriage are to strict. 😂


----------



## Harken Banks

So, your message to OP is (i) he deserved it and (ii) infidelity is not something to get upset about anyway? The problem is not infidelity, but marriage vows? That may work for some people.


----------



## GoldenR

@fencewalker - this forum is called "Coping With Infidelity", not "Accepting Polyamory". Maybe this isn't the place for you.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> This is probably the biggest difference between me and the others here. I do not believe love is a zero-sum game. It certainly doesn't _have _to be.
> 
> 
> 
> *With rape, you're forcing someone to have sex with you against their will.* That's not what we're talking about here. But you're right, we have rules to curb some of our behavior which may hurt others. However, not everyone is hurt by the same things or to the same degree so the rules don't have to be the same in every relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> That's up to the individuals in the relationship and every relationship will be different. There are some people who don't mind letting their partners go off and have fun and also want to have fun themselves, so in those relationships there will be no consequences. Others are not so easy going but are not super restrictive either. Most people on this website definitely don't fall into either of those categories. They don't want to see their partners have sex, kiss, hug, send explicit texts to, receive explicit texts from, go out with, or flirt with anyone else. Ever. Period. It's your prerogative to establish the rules as you see fit. I'm just saying the tougher your rules are, the tougher it's going to be for somebody down the line, even if they went into the relationship very much in love. *Maybe when your partner who has supported you and loved you and raised children with you for fifteen years goes off and has a fling, it's not because they're a colossal piece of ****. Maybe the rules were too strict to begin with.*


With cheating the betrayed is forced to live with their spouse having sex with someone else. 


Everything in the last paragraph is a total load of crap that gives every cheater a blank check to do what they want. 

In order for a relationship to be open that has to be agreed to in advance. That last line is utterly ridiculous. That partner may not always be a colossal piece of ****, but while they are sending nude pics or having sex with another person they are most certain are a colossal piece of ****. And it okay just because the rules were a little too tough? Oh please give me a break. 

Are you even married?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Ok, I read the post @fencewalker started to introduce himself. I would not be taking his advice on cheating. He can't keep an erection because his wife's breast are too small. He regularly use porn, goes to strip clubs and frequents cam girl sites. 

And here is his view on monogamy:

_"*Monogamy*
Years ago, I never devoted much thought to marriage as an institution. I just accepted it. After years of marriage and a lot of thought and reading (“Sex at Dawn”, “Marriage, a History”), I have come to the firm conclusion that humans, generally speaking, are not a monogamous species. It comes down to a very simple question – after two people have mated, do they remain attracted to other people? Obviously, the answer is “yes”, but if humans were truly monogamous, the answer would be “no”. People say all the time that “marriage is hard work”. Would a truly monogamous species view marriage as hard work? Bottom line, requiring members of a promiscuous species to choose one other member to mate with for life is bound to cause problems (hence this section of the talkaboutmarriage page).

I think I would go so far as to say I’m resentful of the institution, with its inflexibility and impossible standards. I can’t think of any other human endeavor that is considered a failure if it does not last forever. The emotion that defines marriage, that separates it from other relationships, is not love – it’s jealousy. There is love between family members and friends, but you’re allowed to have more than one family member and more than one friend. Not so with marriage. Jealousy existed before marriage (even a group of friends can feel jealous if one believes he/she is being left out), but marriage is the only institution that encourages jealousy, with society telling you to keep a tight leash on your significant other. Though it is not stated explicitly, many feel that if their significant other does want to explore, it is because they have failed in some way. I feel horrible for the emotional roller coaster I have put my wife through. I do accept responsibility, but I believe the marriage concept is to blame as well.

My wife and I have talked about having an open relationship and swinging. It took her a while to be okay with my clubbing and online chatting. The open relationship thing is a no go for her and there’s probably little chance of changing her mind. "_



So, if you want to take advice about a cheating partner from someone who holds monogamy in complete disdain, I think you may be asking for trouble.


----------



## GoldenR

Agenda revealed.


----------



## fencewalker

All the advice I have given the OP has been completely sound. I hope you all are proud of yourselves for trying to persuade him to humiliate his wife with a polygraph and end his marriage without even attempting to work through any underlying issues, even after he said he wanted to see if the marriage was salvageable. You don't want to help the OP, you want to attack me for having a different opinion. You're all class acts. Good luck, OP.


----------



## Harken Banks

fencewalker said:


> All the advice I have given the OP has been completely sound. I hope you all are proud of yourselves for trying to persuade him to humiliate his wife with a polygraph and end his marriage without even attempting to work through any underlying issues, even after he said he wanted to see if the marriage was salvageable. You don't want to help the OP, you want to attack me for having a different opinion. You're all class acts. Good luck, OP.


We have some understanding of what OP is facing. He came here for help with that.


----------



## GoldenR

fencewalker said:


> All the advice I have given the OP has been completely sound.


If that were true, would there be so many dissenting voices?


----------



## Dictum Veritas

fencewalker said:


> All the advice I have given the OP has been completely sound. I hope you all are proud of yourselves for trying to persuade him to humiliate his wife with a polygraph and end his marriage without even attempting to work through any underlying issues, even after he said he wanted to see if the marriage was salvageable. You don't want to help the OP, you want to attack me for having a different opinion. You're all class acts. Good luck, OP.


No, if the OP followed your advice, this affair would be rug swept and OP would be back here just when he thought he was through this with a post titled: "My wife Cheated again...." or "The Affair Never Ended...".

You have given the exact opposite of sound advice. It's like Gonorrhea; It sounds good, but it really isn't.

Everyone here not pushing for the destruction of the traditional Marriage and good old fashioned morals who gave sound advice can be proud of themselves for providing OP with a map that he can follow to get himself out of infidelity.

You accused us of not wanting to help OP, I would posit that we are the only ones who are trying to help OP since we are not covertly pushing a counter cultural and counter moral agenda. We are helping OP get out of infidelity.

Had you been up front and stated to OP that he should open his marriage because of what you think about marriage, I would not have called it a covert assertion of your agenda, but because you posted under the guise of wanting to help him in the framework of a traditional marriage, I would say this did harm in the pursuit of a personal agenda.


----------



## ABHale

fencewalker said:


> All the advice I have given the OP has been completely sound. I hope you all are proud of yourselves for trying to persuade him to humiliate his wife with a polygraph and end his marriage without even attempting to work through any underlying issues, even after he said he wanted to see if the marriage was salvageable. You don't want to help the OP, you want to attack me for having a different opinion. You're all class acts. Good luck, OP.


You really don’t understand trust do you.

If you can’t trust your partner there is no relationship.

If she wanted to step out of the relationship then she should have talked with OP before hand instead of lying to his face and cheating.

You can argue and blame others all you want, it doesn’t change the facts that OP’s wife is a lying cheat who didn’t give a **** about her family.

Your advice is sound only if you take for granted everyone will cheat and that it’s no big deal. Just get over it already.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

fencewalker said:


> All the advice I have given the OP has been completely sound. I hope you all are proud of yourselves for trying to persuade him to humiliate his wife with a polygraph and end his marriage without even attempting to work through any underlying issues, even after he said he wanted to see if the marriage was salvageable. You don't want to help the OP, you want to attack me for having a different opinion. You're all class acts. Good luck, OP.


He can't trust anything she says. She has been lying for 17 months. Why believe her now? 99% of all the infidelity stories here involve a cheater that will only admit to what they think the betrayed knows. They will keep lying until the betrayed finds out something on their own. Oh it was just texting, oh we did meet once, oh we just kissed, oh we had sex just once and on it goes.

Everyone here wants to help him, maybe even you. However, don't you think it would have been more honest if you were upfront about your views on monogamy?


----------



## LATERILUS79

fencewalker said:


> No you go away


Uh oh. You done f*cked up now.

I'm gonna sit back and watch. You're messing with the wrong gal. 

Edit: well, it'll be a week. She's in time out right now.


----------



## Rob_1

fencewalker said:


> The fact of the matter is you don't know what the OP did and are not interested in finding out.


This is what's wrong with today's men. Men that have forgotten their biology (unless you're a women, then it makes sense).
From a biological perspective men evolved to ensure that the progeny he was was taken care of were his, not another male. Because what we all want by design is the transmittal of our genes not one else's.
With the advent of agriculture and men becoming settled, not longer nomads the creation of wealth ensure that men were to make sure even more that that progeny was theirs; henceforth the evolution of all social taboos and enforcement to make sure of it. Men since immemorial times had been taught to react in certain ways when the chosen female mate does not ensure the viability of their own genes. Throughout history men have reacted from the most brutal ways to the most socially aceptable ways to apply appropriate social punishment to females that broke the covenant.

We not longer (at least in western societies) live by the blood honor system, but the problem with it is a big percentage of men in today's societies are not longer able to know how to be a man. They are not longer taught to have self respect, self worth, dignity, how to be strong and demanding. On the contrary, human proclivity to rationalize to death anything has gone the opposite way, and by rationalization are teaching today's new male's generations to be sort of androgynous, to bend down, to act feminized, to the point the a big percentage of males now don't have a clue how to pursue a woman, nor how to interact with them.

this poster @fencewalker user name it's apt to what I'm trying to say: Fencewalker, a person that can't have a strong conviction, so he goes by the pathetic, affeminate it most be the guy's fault, therefore he must submit and forgive one of the most socially and biologically injuries a man can endure, that of his mate cheating on him. Horseshit I say, men must be re-taught how to stand for themselves and not accept this horseshit sandwich of social acceptance that goes by these days.

@fencewalker must be one those, simps, pathetic excuse of what goes by the name of a man these days (if he's a man). Because not real man would take and forgive a cheating mate or accept that the cheating is his fault and forgive. Next you know you're raising some other men children. **** not.
As a man my mantra is I don't care the who, why, when, where, for how long, just that you did. Relationship's over.


----------



## manowar

the social conditioning in the west is more pervasive than I ever imagined. it manifests itself immediately when women are involved. I see it all the time. After a while, you can pick out the serviceable guy at Starbucks or Target, or the restaurant. These are the guys who go right into serviceability mode when a woman enters his life. What can I do for her? How can I demonstrate my worthiness? My value. They also tend to go whole-hog into her world, her friends, activities, etc... They want to please. More accurately. They are afraid of displeasing. It's ingrained. they can't help themselves. my guesstimate is that well over 50% of men 50 - 70 cannot think outside this narrative (the myth) spoon-fed on television, movies, education, catholic education especially (HS, college, and even grad school) from a very young age. 

Outside the relationship dynamic, these guys are far from the so-called nice guy. I know a lot of guys like this. I keep my mouth shut of course. they are far from the typical nice guy in the work environment, golf course, or tavern. Far from it. 

Fencewalker is clearly from the Nice-Guy School.


----------



## TDSC60

She has been cheating and lying to you for 1.5 years. The chances that it went physical at some point are astronomical.

How did the poly turn out?


----------



## Gabriel

OP, did you go through with the polygraph?? Been quiet.

Also, I feel you are just so wanting to rugsweep this that you will over-listen to the one person who thinks maybe your wife didn't hardly do anything wrong. You are mostly filtering out what you don't want to hear.

Not sure what help you are looking for.


----------



## Deacon0319

We should just stop asking about the Poly. The broom is already out and the rug is being lifted.


----------



## Kaliber

Deacon0319 said:


> We should just stop asking about the Poly. The broom is already out and the rug is being lifted.


Yup, I hate to see him come back a year or later saying you guys were right!


----------



## Mtg2584

Gabriel said:


> OP, did you go through with the polygraph?? Been quiet.
> 
> Also, I feel you are just so wanting to rugsweep this that you will over-listen to the one person who thinks maybe your wife didn't hardly do anything wrong. You are mostly filtering out what you don't want to hear.
> 
> Not sure what help you are looking for.


Polygraph test was this morning and she passed all pertinent 3 questions regarding physical activity. We are each working on our issues and she is openly speaking to me about the issue at hand. Thank you everyone for your feedback during this difficult time.


----------



## Gabriel

Mtg2584 said:


> Polygraph test was this morning and she passed all pertinent 3 questions regarding physical activity. We are each working on our issues and she is openly speaking to me about the issue at hand. Thank you everyone for your feedback during this difficult time.


Glad to hear she passed that. Now you have the bigger problem (IMHO) about who she loves.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Mtg2584 said:


> Polygraph test was this morning and she passed all pertinent 3 questions regarding physical activity. We are each working on our issues and she is openly speaking to me about the issue at hand. Thank you everyone for your feedback during this difficult time.


17 Months with contact and nothing sexual? Wow, that is an exception to the rule and so rare it's almost unheard of. What were these polygraph questions if I may ask?


----------



## Mtg2584

Dictum Veritas said:


> 17 Months with contact and nothing sexual? Wow, that is an exception to the rule and so rare it's almost unheard of. What were these polygraph questions if I may ask?


Was there physicalcontact in the time since we were married 

Did you have a plan to have physical contact


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Mtg2584 said:


> Was there physicalcontact in the time since we were married
> 
> Did you have a plan to have physical contact


According to those questions, they never even brushed hands giving each other change or a book or something and they never planned to... Where these questions asked in any context and how was this context established?


----------



## Mtg2584

Dictum Veritas said:


> According to those questions, they never even brushed hands giving each other change or a book or something and they never planned to... Where these questions asked in any context and how was this context established?


Sorry I'm driving. Physical contact pertaining to sex or having any ssxual activity since marriage w anyone other than your husband 

She did admit to hugging once which came out on day 1


----------



## manwithnoname

EA + proximity = PA or however the **** that equation goes is not an absolute. It may be true more often than not, but it’s not absolute.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> Sorry I'm driving. Physical contact pertaining to sex or having any ssxual activity since marriage w anyone other than your husband
> 
> She did admit to hugging once which came out on day 1


I'm really glad to see you followed through with the polygraph. If nothing else it says you are serious. I would say this is good news, but I would still be worried as hell and you definitely have your work cut out for you. It is going to take a long time to build trust of any sort, but this is a start. I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## Mtg2584

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm really glad to see you followed through with the polygraph. If nothing else it says you are serious. I would say this is good news, but I would still be worried as hell and you definitely have your work cut out for you. It is going to take a long time to build trust of any sort, but this is a start. I wish you the best of luck.


Thank you.. yes this is going to be difficult.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Mtg2584 said:


> Thank you.. yes this is going to be difficult.


Good luck to you @Mtg2584 , I am glad for you that this wasn't the expected norm. I sincerely hope there are no more unexpected surprises down the road. I really do.


----------



## Gabriel

She quit her job, if I remember right. That's also a very good sign.

Sometimes people get caught up in something the end up regretting. If OP's wife is typically very shy, etc. then it's definitely possible she just couldn't go through with sexual contact.

But it's just very bizarre to be that lovey dovey with someone for such a long time, and have it not progress, physically. She did seem to fall for him though, and that's not only a problem with that guy in particular, but a problem in the marriage - a disconnected wife.


----------



## Mtg2584

Gabriel said:


> She quit her job, if I remember right. That's also a very good sign.
> 
> Sometimes people get caught up in something the end up regretting. If OP's wife is typically very shy, etc. then it's definitely possible she just couldn't go through with sexual contact.
> 
> But it's just very bizarre to be that lovey dovey with someone for such a long time, and have it not progress, physically. She did seem to fall for him though, and that's not only a problem with that guy in particular, but a problem in the marriage - a disconnected wife.


Also learned this guy was a predator. His wife said he has cheated on her numerous times. He definitely knew how to manipulate. My wife is shy , weak, quiet. Something came around that complimented her etc.. this is not her which is why it was such a shock to me and what I feel is worth working on.


----------



## GoldenR

Mtg2584 said:


> Also learned this guy was a predator. His wife said he has cheated on her numerous times. He definitely knew how to manipulate. My wife is shy , weak, quiet. Something came around that complimented her etc.. this is not her which is why it was such a shock to me and what I feel is worth working on.



Don't let your mind get caught up in the "poor little lost baby in the woods" narrative. Those that are married or otherwise in an exclusive relationship can not get played nor preyed upon unless they're willing. She is an adult, she's grown and she knew what she was doing was wrong.


----------



## Gabriel

Mtg2584 said:


> Also learned this guy was a predator. His wife said he has cheated on her numerous times. He definitely knew how to manipulate. My wife is shy , weak, quiet. Something came around that complimented her etc.. this is not her which is why it was such a shock to me and what I feel is worth working on.


Look I get it. You don't want to believe your wife is capable of this behavior. But she showed you that she is. 

Not saying don't work on it, by all means do. But don't be so disillusioned.


----------



## ArthurGPym

The quiet ones are the worst.


----------



## RNSoSo

ArthurGPym said:


> The quiet ones are the worst.


The absolute WORST! My STBXH is a prime example of this 🙄


----------



## boonez40

re16 said:


> This is called the price of freedom.


Yep, divorces are expensive, because they are worth it.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## boonez40

Mtg2584 said:


> Everything was deleted already. She deleted them daily. Would you say that if she did pass a polygraph and I confirm she is now telling the truth about physical activity it is a step in the right direction?


No, because I can beat a polygraph and all I need is a thumb tack in my shoe under my big too, every time I get asked a question, I press down on the tack when I answer. It will appear I am telling the truth. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Mtg2584 said:


> Also learned this guy was a predator. His wife said he has cheated on her numerous times. He definitely knew how to manipulate. My wife is shy , weak, quiet. Something came around that complimented her etc.. this is not her which is why it was such a shock to me and what I feel is worth working on.


Well I held off posting in this thread because frankly I get tired of these kinds of stories. But this quote I just couldn't let go.

Your poor wife, she had a faithful husband who worked long hours to provide for her and her 3 children. Only she was shy, and along came this big bad wolf who tricked her into sexting with him. I mean how could she possibly control herself, If only she had known better. (that is sarcasm for effect if you didn't figure it out.) Besides it was someone else who sent those sexy pictures and she was just powerless when he told her how hot she was.

Dude it's one thing to take her back but if you have to gaslight yourself to stay married you are in for a very hard time. Better to start from a foundation of truth, because the truth isn't so ridiculous that you have to tie yourself in knots to believe it. Here is the truth she knew exactly what she was doing and she did it because she wanted to and liked it. She wasn't tricked, she didn't have an out of body experience. She purposely lied for months and hid a sexual relationship because it was fun and she enjoyed it, and felt entitled to it. 

You can be pissed at me for writing it, but that is much more truthful then what you wrote. Your story will keep you suffering forever because it makes no sense. So you will have the internal doubt of your rational mind warning you that it's BS which will prolong your doubt. The true story will be painful but at least you start with a foundation to heal from.

Read these boards, guys who angelize or infantilize their wives get cheated on all the time. You read it over and over. That is because the wife's pick those guys because they know their husbands are good marks. The wives know their husbands willfully refuse to see them for who they really are, their affair partners know them better. 

In this case your wife is exactly the same as this guy and actively participated in everything. She had a husband and kids in the next room. Which means she is just as much a predator, it's just her family is the victim.

One day you are going to get this, hopefully it won't be 10 years from now when you are still suffering.


----------



## Offkilter123

boonez40 said:


> No, because I can beat a polygraph and all I need is a thumb tack in my shoe under my big too, every time I get asked a question, I press down on the tack when I answer. It will appear I am telling the truth.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Absolute BS. You have obviously never been hooked up to a polygraph. Any examiner would shut down any type of knuckleheaded nonsense like this. I have taken two polygraph exams in my life (both work related) so I do have some experience here. It takes several seconds after a question is asked before the galvanic skin responses kick in. Since the questions are yes/no questions the expectation is you immediately answer the question as the examiner monitors your reaction. Any delays or graph readings that are really out of line with the readings in the baseline established at the beginning of the exam will be construed as you trying to game the exam. The polygraph examiner will stop the exam and explain that you are trying to beat the exam. At that point, you might as well confess because everyone knows you are a liar. The thumbtack thing is one of the oldest and most ridiculous old wive’s tales out there. If polygraphs were junk science they would not be still be in use by intelligence agencies around the world.


----------



## Blondilocks

sokillme said:


> Here is the truth she knew exactly what she was doing and she did it because she wanted to and liked it.


It never fails to amaze me when someone will claim they are shy, introverted, low self-esteem or body issues have ZERO problem snapping pics of their privates and sending them via the internet to people they hardly know. Who do they think they are kidding? It absolutely defies logic.


----------



## jsmart

OP wants to believe that his wife was manipulated but we repeatedly see on these boards that the shy wife with body image issues is somehow able to video herself masturbating for her OM, sneaking off from husband or even kids to snap a quick vag or boob pic because her OM asked for them.

There’s usually also a vindictive streak in such cases. Obeying their OM to the point of completely disrespecting their whole family. It all adds to the excitement and we see that they will mourn the loss of OM for many months, sometimes even years.

So if somehow the poli results are true that they didn’t actually have sex, her heart may still be with the OM. There are 2 threads on SI of WWs in long marriages with kids that supposedly had EA that included virtual sex that the wife’s heart and mind are still with the OM. So please do not let your guard down because the poli says she was truthful about the sex question.


----------



## sokillme

Blondilocks said:


> It never fails to amaze me when someone will claim they are shy, introverted, low self-esteem or body issues have ZERO problem snapping pics of their privates and sending them via the internet to people they hardly know. Who do they think they are kidding? It absolutely defies logic.


I think it's more like she hides her true nature from her husband because it is conflicted. Sometimes it's what's called the Madonna ***** complex. It's not that they are shy, it's that they are shy with their husband.


----------



## snerg

sokillme said:


> Well I held off posting in this thread because frankly I get tired of these kinds of stories. But this quote I just couldn't let go.
> 
> Your poor wife, she had a faithful husband who worked long hours to provide for her and her 3 children. Only she was shy, and along came this big bad wolf who tricked her into sexting with him. I mean how could she possibly control herself, If only she had known better. (that is sarcasm for effect if you didn't figure it out.) Besides it was someone else who sent those sexy pictures and she was just powerless when he told her how hot she was.
> 
> Dude it's one thing to take her back but if you have to gaslight yourself to stay married you are in for a very hard time. Better to start from a foundation of truth, because the truth isn't so ridiculous that you have to tie yourself in knots to believe it. Here is the truth she knew exactly what she was doing and she did it because she wanted to and liked it. She wasn't tricked, she didn't have an out of body experience. She purposely lied for months and hid a sexual relationship because it was fun and she enjoyed it, and felt entitled to it.
> 
> You can be pissed at me for writing it, but that is much more truthful then what you wrote. Your story will keep you suffering forever because it makes no sense. So you will have the internal doubt of your rational mind warning you that it's BS which will prolong your doubt. The true story will be painful but at least you start with a foundation to heal from.
> 
> Read these boards, guys who angelize or infantilize their wives get cheated on all the time. You read it over and over. That is because the wife's pick those guys because they know their husbands are good marks. The wives know their husbands willfully refuse to see them for who they really are, their affair partners know them better.
> 
> In this case your wife is exactly the same as this guy and actively participated in everything. She had a husband and kids in the next room. Which means she is just as much a predator, it's just her family is the victim.
> 
> One day you are going to get this, hopefully it won't be 10 years from now when you are still suffering.


----------



## Evinrude58

My ****ty ex wife told me she didn’t wAnt to sext me instead of the loser married guys she was having fun with—- because she thought I’d think badly of her. Lol. 
yeah. I think badly of her now.

I will never be with another woman that likes sexting.


----------



## colingrant

So Killed Me nailed it and I too have refrained from posting something similar. The problem with the "he was a predator" narrative is it unintentionally flips the script with the co-conspirator (WS) going from villain to victim. She wasn't a victim. She minimally co-conspired and could possibly even initiated or led the assault on your soul. 

This narrative greatly distorts the path and actions your wife must take in order remedy her wrongs. One could simply say, don't talk to men because one might be a predator. Well, what does a predator look like? John Doe with glasses who works alongside your wife in accounting? The problem isn't the predator or even non-predators. It's the WS's inability to completely remove ANY POSSIBILITY of emotional connectivity with any John Doe of the world because that's who the so-called predators are. Regular Jim's and Joe's of the worldl. . 

I was cheated on twice. To this day I don't know who the men were. Who, why, where, when etc. was of no consequence to me because they were "NOTHING" to me before the affair and I decided they would remain NOTHING to me afterwards. The ONLY reason their existence had any relativity in my world is because my fiancés granted them entry into it. They did not break in. She OPENED THE DOOR AND ALLOWED THEM IN. Huge difference. 

As a man, I concede some and perhaps many of us are opportunist. Some may be real predators as the OP conveniently calls them. I believe many, if not most are scavengers which as we all know don't kill, but eat what's already killed. I believe many women are scavenged by vultures, which means they are consumed by the opportunists. 

AP's are vultures and just through regular flight, will find a carcass to consume (wayward wife) and take what's there to be had. If the vulture doesn't eat it, some other animal will. Herein lies the key. If it wasn't this man, it would have been some other man. The ONLY constant in this infidelity formula is the ability or inability of the spouse's committed nature to the marriage and vows. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. 

Yes, AP's have an ethical obligation to honor his family and your family as well, but lust and sex has compromised ethics and morals from day one and will continue to the end of time. Plus, who are we to assume the John Doe's of the world have ANY morals to begin with. 

To deny this one must live in an alternative world, of which this one is most certainly not. This world is a real one that we all live in and it inhabits people who will take what's given to them and often steal if possible. *The only factor to ensure vows remain unbreakable are our spouses*. Predators and vultures are going to do what they're going to do. The vows and committed nature of two people are the only line of defense to protect those that* believe and live by principles and vows*.


----------



## Mtg2584

colingrant said:


> So Killed Me nailed it and I too have refrained from posting something similar. The problem with the "he was a predator" narrative is it unintentionally flips the script with the co-conspirator (WS) going from villain to victim. She wasn't a victim. She minimally co-conspired and could possibly even initiated or led the assault on your soul.
> 
> This narrative greatly distorts the path and actions your wife must take in order remedy her wrongs. One could simply say, don't talk to men because one might be a predator. Well, what does a predator look like? John Doe with glasses who works alongside your wife in accounting? The problem isn't the predator or even non-predators. It's the WS's inability to completely remove ANY POSSIBILITY of emotional connectivity with any John Doe of the world because that's who the so-called predators are. Regular Jim's and Joe's of the worldl. .
> 
> I was cheated on twice. To this day I don't know who the men were. Who, why, where, when etc. was of no consequence to me because they were "NOTHING" to me before the affair and I decided they would remain NOTHING to me afterwards. The ONLY reason their existence had any relativity in my world is because my fiancés granted them entry into it. They did not break in. She OPENED THE DOOR AND ALLOWED THEM IN. Huge difference.
> 
> As a man, I concede some and perhaps many of us are opportunist. Some may be real predators as the OP conveniently calls them. I believe many, if not most are scavengers which as we all know don't kill, but eat what's already killed. I believe many women are scavenged by vultures, which means they are consumed by the opportunists.
> 
> AP's are vultures and just through regular flight, will find a carcass to consume (wayward wife) and take what's there to be had. If the vulture doesn't eat it, some other animal will. Herein lies the key. If it wasn't this man, it would have been some other man. The ONLY constant in this infidelity formula is the ability or inability of the spouse's committed nature to the marriage and vows. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
> 
> Yes, AP's have an ethical obligation to honor his family and your family as well, but lust and sex has compromised ethics and morals from day one and will continue to the end of time. Plus, who are we to assume the John Doe's of the world have ANY morals to begin with.
> 
> To deny this one must live in an alternative world, of which this one is most certainly not. This world is a real one that we all live in and it inhabits people who will take what's given to them and often steal if possible. *The only factor to ensure vows remain unbreakable are our spouses*. Predators and vultures are going to do what they're going to do. The vows and committed nature of two people are the only line of defense to protect those that* believe and live by principles and vows*.


When I say other guy was a predator I say it not as an excuse for the Indidelity but it was a compensating factor. Yes if it was not him it may have been another man that came along.


----------



## ArthurGPym

Quiet people are almost always hiding something. It may not always be a bad something, but it is almost always a something something.


----------



## colingrant

Mtg2584 said:


> When I say other guy was a predator I say it not as an excuse for the Indidelity but it was a compensating factor. Yes if it was not him it may have been another man that came along.


Not to thread jack mtg but your thread and sokillme's post just torched what was already smoldering. You may or may not fit into this category. If you do, acknowledge and take heed. If you don't, so be it.

Thoughts to consider. Notwithstanding kidnapping or some bizarre crime, if it's not rape, it's consensual. If it's consensual it's consensual. Perhaps I should have started a post on this but I just want to shed some light on the "predator" narrative which is often misused by betrayed spouses and goes lightly challenged to often not challenged at all.

No blame or finger pointing should take place accept for the WS whose finger should be pointed 100% directly at themselves. Not 75% them and 25% other man. The other man has nothing nothing to do with your wife or any other wife granting entry into their mind and body. ZERO. Anger, grudge, thoughts, etc., much less blame going to the other man is misdirected.


----------



## sokillme

Mtg2584 said:


> When I say other guy was a predator I say it not as an excuse for the Indidelity but it was a compensating factor. Yes if it was not him it may have been another man that came along.


I think for many BS it's easier to see it like something their WS mistakenly did or didn't truly choose to do but was coerced or tricked into. Like if not for the AP it wouldn't have happened, because it's much easier for both the BS and WS to handle emotionally, then to see it as something their WS wanted to do, and even actively sought out.

Here is the thing with that, even if it is true the very first time, which is laughable on it's face (like she didn't know right from wrong) but just for argument's sake I will concede that. She still continually went back to him, even knowing what it would do to you and the marriage. This was a series of choices she made over and over, for a long period of time. You can't say that she didn't know what this would do to your marriage or to you unless your wife is so stupid she shouldn't be married. Of course she knew.

You ARE right it could have been any guy so the guy being a predator is immaterial. This is actually something that lots of BS get wrong when they focus so strongly on the AP. In this new post you seem to be hedging here so maybe my post opened your eyes a little bit. Still that is not enough though, because that still makes the focus of what happened about a guy or the circumstance, and not what it really needs to be. The affair is a problem in your wife's nature. This circumstance focus is a pull for both of you because then neither one of you will have to deal with the very painful issue of who she is internally, and where your true challenge lies. DO NOT let any counselor make the focus be the external situation which some of them are want to do. It's easier and much less painful, it's a good way to put a quick bow on this and have a happy customer, but it won't fix it in the long run. It will also leave you with nagging doubts because you will know even subconsciously that it's bull*. I will also continue to leave you vulnerable to her cheating. There are no perfect storms that lead to cheating, just internal ones inside the cheaters themselves.

So in this way it also can't be problems in your marriage, even if there were problems in your marriage. Infidelity is not a problem of circumstance, or marriage but a very dysfunctional way for a WS to solve a problem. Usually the problem is internal, but even if it is external the issue is THE WAY they chose to solve the problem as much as it is that problem. This is one of the reasons it's such a bed idea to go into marriage counseling right away.

Most of the time, the problems in the marriage are as much a part of the dysfunctional thinking of someone whose MO it was to cheat to fix their unhappiness. These people are just not reliable narrators of their life, the cheating shows as much, it shows their poor decision making. Their reactionary decision making about perceptions that are often skewed is a problem way before they cheat. So that needs to be fixed first. Even still you can't build a broken marriage without good faith. That takes time and consistent effort by the WS first. Part of that effort is for the WS to figure out why they did what they they did, and why they feel the way they do. Only then do you have a solid foundation. But this is the foundation for you to choose if you want to R. At least a that point you have an idea of what you are choosing. It's just way too soon to decide in the beginning and you are still in a state of trauma anyway. R is a gift that should be earned and not given lightly, for your own protection if nothing else.

Your wife's remorse and contrition should really only be a requirement for you to decided to R, but not a reason to. If you don't have that, then you shouldn't even consider it, but just because you do doesn't mean you should either. And it is way too soon to know, again your wife isn't an honest narrator of even her own story right now. You must make your decision on what the quality of life you will have moving forward. I have been reading these stories for a long time, trying to help people. It is clear to me that even the best R stories seem to be marriages that are very hard. The ones where they seem very happy that they overcame and stayed together are still hyper focused on the infidelity years later because the problems that come from that persist. So many BS think they are working to get back to where they were before they discovered the affair, and so many of them end up disappointed because they eventually find out that the marriage they had before is dead, it's a new marriage now, with someone who cheated on them. 

Both my posts are somber and I am sorry for that, but there is no way you are going to truly recover if you make excuses for her that just are not true. And someone needs to honestly tell you what you are signing up for even if you don't believe it yet.


----------



## Divinely Favored

ArthurGPym said:


> Quiet people are almost always hiding something. It may not always be a bad something, but it is almost always a something something.


Right....i always said dont cross us as we are busy thinking of ways to hide the bodies. 🤔


----------



## TurnedTurtle

sokillme is so right -- it's not the AP, it's the choices made by the WS.


ETA -- there are a few cases where there is a significant power imbalance, such as teacher and student, boss and subordinate, or doctor and patient, where blame could be potentially be assigned (at least in part) to the more powerful AP. But mostly it's the WS sliding down a slippery slope through a series of incremental choices of their own volition.


----------



## boonez40

Offkilter123 said:


> Absolute BS. You have obviously never been hooked up to a polygraph. Any examiner would shut down any type of knuckleheaded nonsense like this. I have taken two polygraph exams in my life (both work related) so I do have some experience here. It takes several seconds after a question is asked before the galvanic skin responses kick in. Since the questions are yes/no questions the expectation is you immediately answer the question as the examiner monitors your reaction. Any delays or graph readings that are really out of line with the readings in the baseline established at the beginning of the exam will be construed as you trying to game the exam. The polygraph examiner will stop the exam and explain that you are trying to beat the exam. At that point, you might as well confess because everyone knows you are a liar. The thumbtack thing is one of the oldest and most ridiculous old wive’s tales out there. If polygraphs were junk science they would not be still be in use by intelligence agencies around the world.


Think what you want Charlie Brown, I could care less 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> When I say other guy was a predator I say it not as an excuse for the Indidelity but it was a compensating factor. Yes if it was not him it may have been another man that came along.


I'm a little reluctant to suggest this because it somewhat blames human nature/hormones even though we have freewill and to ability to make choices. That said, I suggest you read The Married Man Sex Life Primer. It has some interesting insight about the biology of sex, and cheating. Plus it may teach you some things about how to keep your spouse sexually satisfied so they won't have any desire to cheat.


----------



## ElOtro

Evinrude58 said:


> My ****ty ex wife told me she didn’t wAnt to sext me instead of the loser married guys she was having fun with—- because she thought I’d think badly of her. Lol.
> yeah. I think badly of her now.
> 
> I will never be with another woman that likes sexting.


The problem, at least in my thought, not (most of) sexual practices in themselves but with whom.


----------



## boonez40

I am just surprised at how OP has down played it all to help him cope with his wife's infidelity. 

But I also remember them days of lying to myself about my ex wife so I am not judging. Only thought is I down played it as well because I was not the good guy either. I had more than my fair share of cheating on her but later in the marriage, I gave that part of me up and started playing by the rules. In a way I felt I deserved it for the countless times I had sex with a lot of other women and tried to make things work. 

So I must ask if the OP has any guilt he is dealing with on his end is why he is down playing it. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mtg2584

boonez40 said:


> I am just surprised at how OP has down played it all to help him cope with his wife's infidelity.
> 
> But I also remember them days of lying to myself about my ex wife so I am not judging. Only thought is I down played it as well because I was not the good guy either. I had more than my fair share of cheating on her but later in the marriage, I gave that part of me up and started playing by the rules. In a way I felt I deserved it for the countless times I had sex with a lot of other women and tried to make things work.
> 
> So I must ask if the OP has any guilt he is dealing with on his end is why he is down playing it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Not down playing it. I am overly angry, upset, embarrassed, concerned, etc. I am however trying to make it work. My guilt is only for being an absent husband which still is not an excuse for her behavior. I have never cheated. I am searching every resource possible to learn to cope and maybe one day forgive. If in time this still doesn't sit well with me I know what my options are.


----------



## Marc878

Mtg2584 said:


> Also learned this guy was a predator. His wife said he has cheated on her numerous times. He definitely knew how to manipulate. My wife is shy , weak, quiet. Something came around that complimented her etc.. this is not her which is why it was such a shock to me and what I feel is worth working on.


Make no mistake. Your wife picked him though didn’t she? I don’t buy the poor muffin was corrupted by the big bad wolf. Sorry man but She made a decision for him while married to you. The rest is BS.


----------



## ElOtro

Marc878 said:


> Make no mistake. Your wife picked him though didn’t she? I don’t buy the poor muffin was corrupted by the big bad wolf. Sorry man but She made a decision for him while married to you. The rest is BS.


I was trying to say this in other and more gentle words. But, in the end, yours are uncontestable right: 
And the rest is bs.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

GusPolinski said:


> Polygraphs are junk.


Polygraphs are certainly not foolproof and sometimes elicit a confession or more likely a partial truth.

When I was younger I took several for employment and the last one I consented to taking told me I lied on my name so I never took one again. I don't think it really matters that much whether it ever got physical or not if the sex and photos are as bad as all that. If they're sending nudes to each other...

Certainly people can get a banter going back and forth that they're not serious about that can be interpret is texting but if they're sending photos that are revealing that's to me the same as cheating.


----------



## ElOtro

DownByTheRiver said:


> Certainly people can get a band or going back and forth that they're not serious about that can be interpret is texting but if they're sending photos that are revealing that's to me the same as cheating.


Count me in the number of the ones that would say: Sexting and / or suggestive / seductive texting with a third one "that's to me the same as cheating"


----------



## ccash1107

Mtg2584 said:


> Not down playing it. I am overly angry, upset, embarrassed, concerned, etc. I am however trying to make it work. My guilt is only for being an absent husband which still is not an excuse for her behavior. I have never cheated. I am searching every resource possible to learn to cope and maybe one day forgive. If in time this still doesn't sit well with me I know what my options are.


Guess you really loved your wife after all shes done to you OP. I really wish you luck and God bless you with your commitment, faithfulness and love to your wife. I guess that kind of attitude you have is very rare these days. I also just wish that your wife will also be as committed, faithful and love you as well from now on that you have given her a chance.


----------



## Avgman

As someone said earlier, EA plus physical proximity equals PA. It's no way 17 months of this occured and nothing happened. My wife and friend had an affair, she gave every sign that she was starting to have feelings for him bit I ignored it. Then, a month after I paid for all of us to go on vacation together, including his pregnant wife, I found out they were having sex. Once that emotional connection takes place it's only a matter of time for the physical part.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I hate to pile on, but as a BH, they were doing the horizontal mambo. Do not kid yourself. It always starts with an EA(sticking your toe in the water to test the temperature) and evolves into a PA. Do not let her lie to you.


----------



## ElOtro

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I hate to pile on, but as a BH, they were doing the horizontal mambo. Do not kid yourself. It always starts with an EA(sticking your toe in the water to test the temperature) and evolves into a PA. Do not let her lie to you.


And even if not, some distinctions are IMO less than relevant.
In a wider sense...
ALL affairs are sexual, physical or not and including EA´s, as they involve people of each one preferred (atractive) gender.
ALL affairs are emotional, even the "only" PA ones, as lust is also an emotion.

To each one their deal breakers if they have one.
In my personal view, whatever erodes the specialness of exclusivity of a monogamous couple.


----------



## MattMatt

boonez40 said:


> No, because I can beat a polygraph and all I need is a thumb tack in my shoe under my big too, every time I get asked a question, I press down on the tack when I answer. It will appear I am telling the truth.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Really? Someone tried to "game" the lie detector expert on the Jeremy Kyle Show in the UK using some such trickery. The expert was able to pinpoint the fact that he had been cheating the test.


----------



## hinterdir

Mtg2584 said:


> Hello, wife and I have been married for 10 years. We are In our late 30s. We have 3 young children together. Recently I found out that at the start of covid she befriended a colleague. When covid shut down the workplace they started texting daily with good mornings and general discussion. That somehow turned into sexting and picture exchanges. They would setup play dates at parks and kids activity places so the kids couple see each other, all the while sending graphic texts when they got home.. but nothing ever in person and no physical contact. When the workplace opened up they saw each other daily and spoke about general everyday things and then they would go home and sext and exchange pics all night. It all came to an end when the man's wife found out who then contacted me. I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this. Both parties swear it never became physical but I will never know the truth. What about lunch breaks or walking out to the car at night after work. Their affair lasted 17 months. Not sure how i can come back from this. We've been seeing marriage counselors and individual therapy . I want to make it work and so does she but the thoughts won't leave my mind. It's been 2 months and everyday feels like the day I found out


When you married did you both vow to be faithful to eachother?
If so....open marriage was not the arrangement....then she broke her vow.
The marriage is dead. She killed it by being unfaithful.
What is there to think about?
Move on.


----------



## drencrom

Mtg2584 said:


> I defenitley had my share of blame with ignoring the marriage but didn't deserve this.


NO, you get that thinking out of your head right now. You would have blame in the state of your marriage and would need to work with your wife as she is a partner in it as well.

But you DO NOT have blame in her decision or character as someone who decides to cheat. You do NOT have blame in that.


----------



## drencrom

Mtg2584 said:


> Polygraph test was this morning and she passed all pertinent 3 questions regarding physical activity. We are each working on our issues and she is openly speaking to me about the issue at hand. Thank you everyone for your feedback during this difficult time.


Well, thats good, I suppose, if she didn't go through the actual deed. But still, she has given you something to be paranoid about now. Can you work on that and come back to some sort of normal. I am really hoping for you that you can. I know the kind of mental toll having a cheating spouse takes on a person, which is why I decided not to stay in the marriage. I'd never look at her the same ever again and certainly wouldn't trust her.

Your situation is a bit different. She quit her job, deleted her social media, and according to the poly, she didn't actually do it. So hopefully she is doing everything right now that she has been caught.

Without reading every page in this thread, I know the wife of the OM contacted you. Did she say anything about it being physical?


----------



## Mtg2584

drencrom said:


> Well, thats good, I suppose, if she didn't go through the actual deed. But still, she has given you something to be paranoid about now. Can you work on that and come back to some sort of normal. I am really hoping for you that you can. I know the kind of mental toll having a cheating spouse takes on a person, which is why I decided not to stay in the marriage. I'd never look at her the same ever again and certainly wouldn't trust her.
> 
> Your situation is a bit different. She quit her job, deleted her social media, and according to the poly, she didn't actually do it. So hopefully she is doing everything right now that she has been caught.
> 
> Without reading every page in this thread, I know the wife of the OM contacted you. Did she say anything about it being physical?


She also was told it never became physical... 1 year of this they were apart and only communicating via Facebook because of Covid so they didn't have the in person opportunity as if they were together everyday. If they were together everyday then yes i can see how an EA can easily become PA. She has totally parted ways with the OM.


----------



## Evinrude58

What is happening as a consequence of your wife’s total disloyalty that makes you feel you can now trust her not to have another affair, or go back to having an affair with this guy? Don’t be naive enough to think it was never physical. 

If you can’t really come up with anything, it’s likely you’ll have a repeat performance.

Do you have total transparency and access to all her phones and computers?

If so, ask yourself what you would do if suddenly she has a passcode on her phone you don’t know.
If you are still so dependent on her that you are unwilling to follow through with getting rid of her if you see this happening again, you aren’t in a good place for reconciling, you’re still hurt and insecure about being abandoned And alone.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> She also was told it never became physical... 1 year of this they were apart and only communicating via Facebook because of Covid so they didn't have the in person opportunity as if they were together everyday. If they were together everyday then yes i can see how an EA can easily become PA. She has totally parted ways with the OM.


You are obviously set on keeping the marriage together and from what you've in this thread I think you do have a chance. You've had her take a polygraph proving no PA, she quit working with him and no social media/total no contact. 

That said, Evinrude's point is very important IMO. She should have no right to privacy with any device she can communicate with. 100% transparency without a moment of hesitation. The moment she complains about it or hides it, something is up. I am confident my wife won't cheat just on blind faith, as should be the case in any good marriage. However, the fact that we both have full access to each others communications is very reassuring. Short of a burner phone it would be impossible for either of us to hide anything from one another. Even though we don't just go snooping the mere fact that we are both an open book gives peace of mind. In your case it may be the only thing that keeps you sane. And as painful as it may be you need to discuss with her what will happen if she does this again. You should make actual preparations for separation that would be triggered as soon as she slips up, if she slips up (trying to stay positive).


----------



## boonez40

MattMatt said:


> Really? Someone tried to "game" the lie detector expert on the Jeremy Kyle Show in the UK using some such trickery. The expert was able to pinpoint the fact that he had been cheating the test.


Ok guys n gals 
30 years ago I know without getting into details that it worked. 
So let's move on. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> She also was told it never became physical... 1 year of this they were apart and only communicating via Facebook because of Covid so they didn't have the in person opportunity as if they were together everyday. If they were together everyday then yes i can see how an EA can easily become PA. She has totally parted ways with the OM.


What does it say about her, it took all of this hell you are going through to get her to part ways with her lover.


----------



## Divinely Favored

MattMatt said:


> Really? Someone tried to "game" the lie detector expert on the Jeremy Kyle Show in the UK using some such trickery. The expert was able to pinpoint the fact that he had been cheating the test.


If the poligrapher is experienced they will no the person is actively trying to beat the poly.


----------



## drencrom

Mtg2584 said:


> She also was told it never became physical... 1 year of this they were apart and only communicating via Facebook because of Covid so they didn't have the in person opportunity as if they were together everyday. If they were together everyday then yes i can see how an EA can easily become PA. She has totally parted ways with the OM.


Thats good to hear. Hopefully she is showing remorse and true concern for your feelings about it all. If so, you can get past this if she is being honest and true.


----------



## Evinrude58

Part of the cheater script they follow to the letter: If one has no evidence otherwise, “It never went physical”.. They will say that on their death bed, until evidence is shown, then you get “well it was just this one time”....

who cares if it went physical? It was a total betrayal and she had feelings for another man which she was feeding daily. Rarely if ever does any person love two people romantically at once. Feelings building for the new lover are at the expense of the feelings for the old.

One may forgive the betrayal, but forgiveness doesn’t magically recreate the love the disloyal spouse once had.

OP, you’ve chosen to reconcile. Why do you believe your wife’s feelings for you are stronger now, than before she chose to give them to another man? Because if they aren’t stronger than before, it is logical she will look for strong feelings with someone again.


----------



## ElOtro

Evinrude58 said:


> One may forgive the betrayal, but forgiveness doesn’t magically recreate the love the disloyal spouse once had.


This


----------



## jjj858

It’s true what everyone says. The cheater will only admit to what you have proof of. This 100% was a PA. There’s absolutely no way in hell a man is going to invest that length of time for no return. It’s tough and it’s painful and it’ll be hard to start over. But it will be worth it. Don’t continue to be a doormat for this woman. There will be a next time with her too. She’s already checked out of the relationship. No sense in talking her into staying. Do you really want to stay with someone who chose someone else over you? She made it clear right then and there that she doesn’t care about you.


----------



## jsmart

If the results of the poli are true, then it’s safe to say that it was only because of the pandemic shutdown, this didn’t go sexual. 

I wonder if his wife is capable of honestly answering “no” to sex question, if she performed oral? Not saying that happened, but like many on TAM, it’s hard to believe they didn’t connect during the shutdown.

Usually when highly sexual pics and videos are exchanged, it’s to hold the OM off until their next rendezvous, not in place of them. 
But it does occasionally happen. There are 2 threads on SI now of WWs that were having virtual sex affairs. One even signed a marriage agreement and wore a collar on a necklace symbolizing that she belonged to the OM.


----------



## Sfort

jsmart said:


> If the results of the poli are true...


If he is not going to accept the results of the polygraph, it seems pointless to me that he chose to have her take one.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sfort said:


> If he is not going to accept the results of the polygraph, it seems pointless to me that he chose to have her take one.


Parking lot confessions are more reliable than polygraghs. Pass or not, she’s a cheater.


----------



## Sfort

Evinrude58 said:


> Parking lot confessions are more reliable than polygraghs. Pass or not, she’s a cheater.


Then why take the test? The question has been answered. Then again, I'm going to ask you how you know she's a cheater.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sfort said:


> Then why take the test? The question has been answered. Then again, I'm going to ask you how you know she's a cheater.


I don’t know she was physical with the guy, but zero question she’s a cheater.
Why take the test? Hoping for a parking lot confession and possibly getting more backup that it wasn’t physical. However, I personally think the physical is not as important as is the mental aspect of giving one’s emotion and having desire for a person other than one’s spouse.


----------



## Sfort

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t know [if] she was physical with the guy, but zero question she’s a cheater.


EA <> PA for everyone, so there is that. And don't misunderstand, you may be right. I certainly don't know. However, I don't understand how you "know". She passed the parking lot test, she passed the polygraph test, but she's still a cheater.


----------



## Evinrude58

I feel 17 months of sexting and talking is unquestionable cheating. Do you feel differently?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Sfort said:


> EA <> PA for everyone, so there is that. And don't misunderstand, you may be right. I certainly don't know. However, I don't understand how you "know". She passed the parking lot test, she passed the polygraph test, but she's still a cheater.


She's still a cheater because of the EA. And really it went well beyond just texting and talking. They were sending nude pics and I wouldn't be surprised if there were Facetime virtual sex going on. I think the polygraph is conclusive though, there was no PA. The pandemic made most of this long distance and when they were physically near each other it seems to have been in public with their kids. Which, actually is pretty twisted when you think about it. They both brought their kids with them to participate in an affair. Quite sickening in my opinion.


----------



## Gabriel

Definitely cheated. 100%. EAs are powerful, often more powerful than PAs.

Now caught, the wife has to be honest with herself. Does she love her H?

OP, this is what I would do: I would give your wife an out. I would ask her if she has fallen out of love with you and do this without anger or malice. Give her the opportunity for you to let her go. Say it's okay if that's what she wants. See how she reacts to that. Don't make her stay just because she feels bad/guilty. She will either beg you NO, and plead and tell you she never meant to do this and she loves you and wants to work on the marriage, or she will just cry and say she doesn't know what to do. The former is something you can work with. The latter tells you to let her go.


----------



## Mtg2584

Gabriel said:


> Definitely cheated. 100%. EAs are powerful, often more powerful than PAs.
> 
> Now caught, the wife has to be honest with herself. Does she love her H?
> 
> OP, this is what I would do: I would give your wife an out. I would ask her if she has fallen out of love with you and do this without anger or malice. Give her the opportunity for you to let her go. Say it's okay if that's what she wants. See how she reacts to that. Don't make her stay just because she feels bad/guilty. She will either beg you NO, and plead and tell you she never meant to do this and she loves you and wants to work on the marriage, or she will just cry and say she doesn't know what to do. The former is something you can work with. The latter tells you to let her go.


Did that multiple times. She begged me to stay. Cut off all contact with OM and I have 100% access to phone/computer. No more social media and camera disabled on phone.


----------



## Gabriel

Mtg2584 said:


> Did that multiple times. She begged me to stay. Cut off all contact with OM and I have 100% access to phone/computer. No more social media and camera disabled on phone.


How are you feeling? Do you still want her as your wife?


----------



## Sfort

BigDaddyNY said:


> She's still a cheater because of the EA. And really it went well beyond just texting and talking. They were sending nude pics and I wouldn't be surprised if there were Facetime virtual sex going on. I think the polygraph is conclusive though, there was no PA. The pandemic made most of this long distance and when they were physically near each other it seems to have been in public with their kids. Which, actually is pretty twisted when you think about it. They both brought their kids with them to participate in an affair. Quite sickening in my opinion.


Ok, I could recover from an EA. A PA, nope. To me, an EA is not really an affair. I realize I'm in the minority here. That's fine.


----------



## Mtg2584

Gabriel said:


> How are you feeling? Do you still want her as your wife?


I'm not well but trying to make things work. She is def engaged and determined to keep our relationship. Yes I want her as my wife (at this time) just uncertain about the future if my emotions don't subside.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Sfort said:


> Ok, I could recover from an EA. A PA, nope. To me, an EA is not really an affair. I realize I'm in the minority here. That's fine.


I can understand where you are coming from, but I don't think there is really that much difference. I can't see how I could get over my wife telling another man that she loves him. That has to mean her love for me has gone away or at least diminished. Or exchanging explicit photos and videos for the purpose of getting each other off. Is that really better than say, a ONS after drinking too much?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Mtg2584 said:


> I'm not well but trying to make things work. She is def engaged and determined to keep our relationship. Yes I want her as my wife (at this time) just uncertain about the future if my emotions don't subside.


You are in a tough position that no one would want to be in. You've got a long road ahead of you. I really hope she is worth the effort.


----------



## Sfort

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is that really better than say, a ONS after drinking too much?


We all have our limits or boundaries. I agree with what you said. If her love for you has gone away, if that's what the EA means, then so be it. People break up all the time. However, when the P goes in the V, the limit has been breached. All the sorrow in the world can't undo it. You can get over an EA with no permanent harm, and I'm not suggesting it's always the case. I'm only voicing my view.


----------



## ABHale

Mtg2584 said:


> Did that multiple times. She begged me to stay. Cut off all contact with OM and I have 100% access to phone/computer. No more social media and camera disabled on phone.


This doesn’t mean anything. 

She still was having an affair with this guy.

Of course she is going to beg you to stay, the other man isn’t going to leave his wife for her.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sfort said:


> We all have our limits or boundaries. I agree with what you said. If her love for you has gone away, if that's what the EA means, then so be it. People break up all the time. However, when the P goes in the V, the limit has been breached. All the sorrow in the world can't undo it. You can get over an EA with no permanent harm, and I'm not suggesting it's always the case. I'm only voicing my view.


See, my thoughts are different. Not saying you’re wrong, just that mine are different.
The emotional affair to me, is what does the permanent harm to the Wayward spouse’s feelings for the betrayed spouse.
How many people have string romantic feelings for two people at the same time? Not all that many I think (I realize I’m judging based on my own experience and not others, but it is what it is).
So even if the betrayed spouse forgives, the feelings of the WS fir the BS are most likely totally or mostly lost. Most of the begging and pleading when they’re caught is not because they live their betrayed spouse, but because they can’t handle the fear of being on their own without their security blanket. If their feelings were strong, they wouldn’t have cheated to start with. So I feel the emotional side of the affair is the more damaging side.
I will admit I’ve had sex with a woman that I didn’t love after I got divorced, because they were super attractive. I didn’t really have emotions for them yet and when we stopped seeing one another, it didn’t bother me at all. It was the ones I had feelings for that bothered me so much. It wasn’t the sex I missed the most by far. So my thoughts are the emotional side is the part that is most important, because it’s most damaging to the feelings for the betrayed spouse. 

Therefore I think the OP should really think hard about how much his wife really loves him, vs how scared she is of losing her lifestyle as a result of her marriage to him.

17 months. That is a long time to be in love with a person. I also agree with another poster that few men will pursue a relationship with a woman and be getting nude pictures without getting some of the real thing. She passed the poly so I don’t argue it. But it’s really rare.


----------



## Rus47

Mtg2584 said:


> I'm not well but trying to make things work. She is def engaged and determined to keep our relationship. Yes I want her as my wife (at this time) just uncertain about the future if my emotions don't subside.


A big problem for me would be that since she was in a relationship with another, EA or PA makes no difference ( to me ), it demonstrates she has already normalized being attached emotionally to another man. So the next time an opportunity arises with this man or another, there is no barrier to engaging again. This has become who she is inside. She may really believe inside that she will never do this to you again, but the temptation will be enormous as she recalls how much she enjoyed another man paying attention to her.

In your case, before the polygraph most believed she had a physical relationship and told you as much. It is amazing that according to the test she didn't. The problem is you have had time to imagine what all she did with and for the other man. She was no doubt at least imagining those same things while she was trading intimate pictures and text. She was thinking about how good it would feel for him to be inside of her. Those imaginations are going to play for a long time for both of you even though they may not have happened..

You say she is engaged and determined to keep the relationship? By her actions? She may not even know herself why she participated in this, in which case she has no idea whether she would do it again. The one thing she has learned is how to be more devious next time.


----------



## Sfort

Evinrude58 said:


> The emotional affair to me, is what does the permanent harm to the Wayward spouse’s feelings for the betrayed spouse.


People fall in and out of love all the time. A spouse will usually tell you if he or she loves you. They rarely tell when they've had a PA. If my spouse falls in love with another person, it's unfortunate, but that's the way life goes. Sometimes it's _emotionally_ unavoidable. Deciding to get naked with another while not being married to him or her is over the line. A PA is totally avoidable. A WS can be in love with another person and not have a PA. I've never had to experience an EA, so I'm speaking hypothetically, but I have been cheated on, so I know the feeling. Maybe I don't understand what an emotional affair is. Is being tempted by a co-worker an emotional affair if you don't act on it? How does the OM or OW in an EA have to be involved for the relationship to rise to an EA?



> How many people have string romantic feelings for two people at the same time?


You might surprised. It is not uncommon at all. 



> 17 months. That is a long time to be in love with a person.


Was the relationship true love, or was it a habit? I have no idea, but everyone who claims to be in love is not in love. 



> I also agree with another poster that few men will pursue a relationship with a woman and be getting nude pictures without getting some of the real thing. She passed the poly so I don’t argue it. But it’s really rare.


I agree, but my original question was, if he is not going to accept the results of the polygraph, why have her take the test? If you're going to try to get a parking lot confession, don't schedule the test, but show up for it as if you did. You get the same result without paying several hundred dollars for the test.


----------



## Rus47

Evinrude58 said:


> How many people have string romantic feelings for two people at the same time?


This is no doubt controversial for me to say, but humans are not naturally monogamous. Polygamy was and still is the normal dynamic in many parts of the world. In centuries past, mistresses were a common part of life.

And, judging from the infidelity statistics, a LOT of people have not only had strong feeling, they have acted out those feelings. There are also a LOT of people who had strong feelings that no one ever knew about. Faithful monogamous lifetime commitment is probably rather rare for the human worldwide population.

Apologies, T/J end


----------



## ABHale

Rus47 said:


> This is no doubt controversial for me to say, but humans are not naturally monogamous. Polygamy was and still is the normal dynamic in many parts of the world. In centuries past, mistresses were a common part of life.
> 
> And, judging from the infidelity statistics, a LOT of people have not only had strong feeling, they have acted out those feelings. There are also a LOT of people who had strong feelings that no one ever knew about. Faithful monogamous lifetime commitment is probably rather rare for the human worldwide population.
> 
> Apologies, T/J end


Back then when mistress was a common part of life, it was just something to ****. There was no romantic thought. Marriages were arranged with no regard for one’s feelings. Women were treated as property.

Humans are monogamous by nature. It’s only been the past 30 years that those that aren’t have been trying to say poly is the norm.

Live your life the way you want, I really don’t care. But don’t try to shove your beliefs down my throat to justify your life style.


----------



## Rus47

ABHale said:


> Back then when mistress was a common part of life, it was just something to ****. There was no romantic thought. Marriages were arranged with no regard for one’s feelings. Women were treated as property.
> 
> Humans are monogamous by nature. It’s only been the past 30 years that those that aren’t have been trying to say poly is the norm.
> 
> Live your life the way you want, I really don’t care. But don’t try to shove your beliefs down my throat to justify your life style.


I am monogamous. And always have been. Not trying to shove anything down your throat and dont care what you think. Why are you so pissed with someone expressing a belief from history I have read?


----------



## Gabriel

@Sfort 

I think it's an interesting debate, which is worse. And not all EAs are equal. Getting caught up in sexy texts you don't act on and then realizing how stupid you are being, isn't a serious EA. Truly LOVING someone is. And for women especially. My wife had a pretty serious EA. But she feels she didn't have a real affair because they never got physical. For her, it was important she didn't cross that line, as she felt that would have been a point of no return. And thankfully, I caught what was going on early enough.

But being on the business end of a serious EA is brutal. It's not about a snap decision, or even a series of snap decisions. A serious EA takes someone's full heart and soul. One that lasts 17 months?? We don't know how many of those months were deep. It may have been light for the first half and heavy for the second. Maybe OP can find out. But the length of time is a big deal - the longer a deep EA the tougher it is to truly dismiss it and break it. My wife's lasted about 4 months, and that was extremely hard to shake. It was with a long time friend, which made it harder.


----------



## Rob_1

ABHale said:


> Humans are monogamous by nature


No, we are not. If we were we wouldn't be here discussing it. It would be a non issue. Moreover "just the last 30 years"? this statement is nothing but pure ignorance and/or complete cultural blindness. Since man exist in the face of this earth, only a percentage of human have led a monogamous existence. We are primates and most primate species are not monogamous. You should see the videos of bonobos chimps where while the alpha male is chasing away other males from the the female trope, the most diresome females are skipping away to mate with a hidden (out of sight) male. 

I truly do not understand how we humans faced with all the data that exist about any subject we can make dumb statements like humans are monogamous". It really irks me.
Why do you think that in some cultures men would do anything to keep the females away from any other male? don't you see it? cannot understand the reason why those cultures evolved that way? it's never is too late to start educating oneself.


----------



## ElOtro

Sfort said:


> EA <> PA for everyone, so there is that. And don't misunderstand, you may be right. I certainly don't know. However, I don't understand how you "know". She passed the parking lot test, she passed the polygraph test, but she's still a cheater.


_Your questions_



Evinrude58 said:


> I feel 17 months of sexting and talking is unquestionable cheating.


_Your answer_



Sfort said:


> Ok, I could recover from an EA. A PA, nope. To me, an EA is not really an affair. I realize I'm in the minority here. That's fine.


"I realize I'm in the minority here. That's fine." _ You are and that's still fine._

"To me, an EA is not really an affair."
_And may be I am in an even smaller minority.
I think that* all affairs are sexual,* even the "emotional" ones, as they use to involve people of each one´s preffered / attractive gender (and feelings / behaviours / words / gestures are not only friendly).
And that *all affairs are emotional*, enven the sexual ones (physical or not) as lust / arrousal are also emotions._


----------



## ElOtro

Gabriel said:


> @Sfort
> 
> I think it's an interesting debate, which is worse. And not all EAs are equal. Getting caught up in sexy texts you don't act on and then realizing how stupid you are being, isn't a serious EA. Truly LOVING someone is. And for women especially. My wife had a pretty serious EA. But she feels she didn't have a real affair because they never got physical. For her, it was important she didn't cross that line, as she felt that would have been a point of no return. And thankfully, I caught what was going on early enough.
> 
> But being on the business end of a serious EA is brutal. It's not about a snap decision, or even a series of snap decisions. A serious EA takes someone's full heart and soul. One that lasts 17 months?? We don't know how many of those months were deep. It may have been light for the first half and heavy for the second. Maybe OP can find out. But the length of time is a big deal - the longer a deep EA the tougher it is to truly dismiss it and break it. My wife's lasted about 4 months, and that was extremely hard to shake. It was with a long time friend, which made it harder.


I will give me permission to dissagree.
Even a one time "harmless" flirting (an expression as meaningful as "winged cows") is cheating, only cheating but, of course, also no more than cheating!


----------



## Gabriel

I don't disagree with what cheating means. But most people land somewhere on a continuum of what they feel is recoverable. 

A drunken ONS that you don't remember vs. a long term sexual affair. Both cheating, but one is way worse than the other to most people.


----------



## Johnnylightwave

_Humans are monogamous by nature
_
Most are. Its a society building behavior. As people get less monogamous, there's less reward for striving for young men and everyone loses motivation and things start to collapse.

The problem in terms of infidelity is that almost all non-monogamous types want to.masquerade as monogamous types in order to get high value mates. Non-monogamous mates are recognized as lower value universally.

So we really just need the non-monogamous types to keep to their own kind and not try to put on the fake face to suck in the monos.
_
_


----------



## Rob_1

Johnnylightwave said:


> _Humans are monogamous by nature_
> 
> Most are. Its a society building behavior. As people get less monogamous, there's less reward for striving for young men and everyone loses motivation and things start to collapse.
> 
> The problem in terms of infidelity is that almost all non-monogamous types want to.masquerade as monogamous types in order to get high value mates. Non-monogamous mates are recognized as lower value universally.
> 
> So we really just need the non-monogamous types to keep to their own kind and not try to put on the fake face to suck in the monos.


Before you start making ignorant statements such as this (this is not a societal building behavior as you put it quite the contrary, the repressing of human nature into monogamy is the actual sociateal building behavior) you should educate yourself. The human species is not monogamous by nature. That there is a percentage that can actually be monogamous is a different thing (societal or otherwise). Your comment and that of others is just like the idiots that go around preaching that mankind is a gentle kinder species that we are not killer by nature. Yeah right. If you believe something like that I have a bridge to sell you.


----------



## Johnnylightwave

Rob_1 said:


> Before you start making ignorant statements such as this (this is not a societal building behavior as you put it quite the contrary, the repressing of human nature into monogamy is the actual sociateal building behavior) you should educate yourself. The human species is not monogamous by nature. That there is a percentage that can actually be monogamous is a different thing (societal or otherwise). Your comment and that of others is just like the idiots that go around preaching that mankind is a gentle kinder species that we are not killer by nature. Yeah right. If you believe something like that I have a bridge to sell you.


Wrong


----------



## Torninhalf

Johnnylightwave said:


> Wrong


Wow. That was illuminating. You we’re president of the debate club in HS? 😳


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Johnnylightwave said:


> Wrong


Actually you are wrong. You have it backwards. As a species humans are not monogynous. There are many biological reason both men and women would look for multiple sexual partners. Heck, the male penis is even shaped to help remove sperm left by the previous sexual partner of the female. It is society that has created monogamy. I personally don't think that is a bad thing. I personally wouldn't want anything other than monogamy, but it means we have to overcome a biological draw to non-monogamy. And really what we do isn't actually monogamy. Monogamy is a single mate for life. Although some may accomplish that, what most are really doing it serial polygyny or serial polyandry, meaning we only have one sexual relationship with one person at a time, but not necessarily the same person for our entire life. That may seem like splitting hairs, but it is the truth.

And as far as the the non-mogs keeping to themselves, well that is pretty difficult since nearly everyone in our society sees themselves as monogamous, until they're not.


----------



## Johnnylightwave

BigDaddyNY said:


> Actually you are wrong. You have it backwards. As a species humans are not monogynous. There are many biological reason both men and women would look for multiple sexual partners. Heck, the male penis is even shaped to help remove sperm left by the previous sexual partner of the female. It is society that has created monogamy. I personally don't think that is a bad thing. I personally wouldn't want anything other than monogamy, but it means we have to overcome a biological draw to non-monogamy. And really what we do isn't actually monogamy. Monogamy is a single mate for life. Although some may accomplish that, what most are really doing it serial polygyny or serial polyandry, meaning we only have one sexual relationship with one person at a time, but not necessarily the same person for our entire life. That may seem like splitting hairs, but it is the truth.
> 
> And as far as the the non-mogs keeping to themselves, well that is pretty difficult since nearly everyone in our society sees themselves as monogamous, until they're not.


Biological eh? That means we should do other things primates are biologically engineered for as well-- such as masturbating in public and throwing feces.

Unless of course, you think something crazy like "we went down an evolutionary niche like gorillas (monogamous) did and developed new behaviors that caused rapid intellectual development in spite of penis shape.

Anyway what's the issue here? Non-monogamous should hang out with other non-monogamous and leave the monogamous alone.

But you can't because monogamy is extremely high value in a mate and you deserve the best of both worlds.


----------



## Johnnylightwave

Torninhalf said:


> Wow. That was illuminating. You we’re president of the debate club in HS? 😳


"The moon is made of cheese"
"Wrong"

See there's just no debate to have. You want to rationalize bad behavior, but it can't be, so a one word rebuttal suffices.


----------



## Johnnylightwave

Rob_1 said:


> REDACTED


So ya know, I've been debating guys who use the word "polyamory" as though mixing greek and italian made it a scientific word for decades. I know none of you can be convinced that you're not bonobos.

My sole purpose here is to be the counterweight and let monogamous people know they are high value and don't need to endure the non-monogamous. Poly people tend to bully and it's helpful for young ones especially to know they don't have to be unnatural to be "'cool"

Plus if you're gonna make the "it's natural" argument I'm gonna need you to do the other behaviors of non-monogamous primates, mainly, having a harem and killing off any children around that aren't yours.


----------



## Rob_1

Dude: no one here is talking about polyamory except you. Today's concept of poliamory have nothing to do with other cultures where men or women have to have various partners. You're barking at the wrong tree. Educate yourself about mankind concepts of poly relationships in the past or the few cultures where is still practice versus what we are now calling polyamory in our western societies


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Johnnylightwave said:


> Biological eh? That means we should do other things primates are biologically engineered for as well-- such as masturbating in public and throwing feces.
> 
> Unless of course, you think something crazy like "we went down an evolutionary niche like gorillas (monogamous) did and developed new behaviors that caused rapid intellectual development in spite of penis shape.
> 
> Anyway what's the issue here? Non-monogamous should hang out with other non-monogamous and leave the monogamous alone.
> 
> But you can't because monogamy is extremely high value in a mate and you deserve the best of both worlds.


Please don't take my comment as an endorsement of non-monogamy. Yes, it is biological, like many other things, but we have the ability to choose and control those urges. We, society, choose to control a lot of our biological and instinctive urges, for the greater good. In the good ole days if you saw a female you wanted to mate with, you just had to kill her current mate and take her. That is kind of frowned upon now. Just like throwing feces or masturbating in public. Those are just strawman arguments anyway. I'm sure you know that.

If you are suggesting gorillas are monogamous you are wrong there too, but I'm not sure if that is what you were getting at. 

What makes you think that all cheaters knew they were going to engage in non-monogamous behavior before they initiated the affair? That just isn't how it happens. What brought you to the conclusion that cheaters knew they were non-monogamous prior to getting into a LTR? You make it sound like every future cheater was planning their affair at the same time they are reciting their wedding vows.


----------

