# Please help! Wife's depression (her mother committed suicide)



## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't know where to start. I have written a lot in my profile that might help you understand the situation. Tried to give enough back story. Please read that, too!

I'll add that my wife is a really sweet, smart, creatively brilliant person. Very caring. Very loving. Very into family. But, it seems her depression keeps her from living! I've been trying to help her for years on my own.

*But my concern today is my wife doesn't seem to WANT to feel better.* When she's upset, she hates it when I try to 'fix' it (I've read Venus & Mars, I know that's a common difference in men and women). But, the thing that scares me is that she never tries to make herself feel better or live a happier life.

Her mother committed suicide when she was a teenager and I'm terrified of this happening to her. She refuses to do counseling and says that it's money stress or something I'm doing, but I can still find a way to be happy and positive despite money trouble and I WANT to be positive. So I have a hard time understanding her.

She definitely has depression and has been on medication before, but then she reads somewhere that the medication could make her fat (she's had eating disorders, too) so she stops taking it.

I'm all by myself. No family or close friends.

What do I do?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

accept her as she is and stop trying to change her. if she's depressed, wants to be negative, and even wants to die, let her be who she wants. the only thing you can do is take care of your own needs. if you get tired of being around someone who is negative all the time and hates life, then you should think about leaving. I know that seems harsh, but you will never change her. the only thing that will happen by you trying to change her is you will get depressed and bitter. let her live her life as she wants, and you live yours.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

I appreciate you commenting, but that's a ridiculous answer. It's not even an answer. If your kids were just going to be drug addicts, would you just let them? This is family we're talking about. Depression is not healthy. I'm not going to just leave her to suffer.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

qbert said:


> If your kids were just going to be drug addicts, would you just let them? I'm not going to just leave her to suffer.


i know it sounds ridiculous. but she's not a child. if you want to stay that is fine. but she wants to be this way. by trying to change her you are saying you dont love who she is. how do you think that feels for her? how do you think it must feel for her to kept being told who she is isnt good enough, that she should be someone else, someone happy, someone like you? that probably doesnt feel very good to her. 

so by all means, stay with her. but stop trying to make her someone you want. accept her for who she is.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

I would absolutely agree with you if she was HAPPY being depressed, or if the issue was that she just didn't want to be optimistic or chipper, you know? That would be her personality choice.

But that's not what's happening. She's miserable and hates her life.

She does want to change, but keeps herself from doing it.

You're turning this around to me trying to change her or being overbearing and that's not what's happening either. I'm speaking up much more on here than I do with her, because she does hate to feel pressured. But I need help and I need to express my concern so I'm doing it on here. I'm not "trying to change her" or not letting her be herself, I'm asking everyone out there what I should do about her depression and helping her out of it. It isn't healthy, it doesn't give her what she needs and wants from life. My duty as her husband is to give her the best life possible. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. Leaving her to life in a downward spiral is not doing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Qbert, in your threads and profile, you say that you've been married over four years to a "horribly depressed" woman who "literally can't stand anything I say or any of the things I'm interested in (filmmaking, art, etc.)." Moreover, you recognize that her auditory disorder is only "part of the problem" because she has "a complete lack of interest in what I'm saying." If your description is accurate, therapists will likely tell you that your relationship is currently toxic to both of you. 

It is toxic to you because, as you say, it's "causing problems" in your family and causing you "to change who I am in a negative way." It is toxic to your wife because, as long as you continue to "end up giving in to what she wants or needs," you will be an enabler. That is, you will enable her to continue avoid confronting her various illnesses and deal with them. You cannot fix them. Only she can do that. 

I know, I know -- you want to help her and you take the "in sickness and in health" part of your vows very seriously. Well, I did too. But I made a big mistake spending 15 years of my life trying to make a very unhappy woman happy. It took me all those years to learn that the only person who can make a woman happy is the woman herself. 

I realize that you want to fix her so that she will change from her unhappy miserable self back into her "real self," i.e., the wonderful person you knew during the six-month honeymoon period of courtship. What Blanca is trying to tell you -- and what took me 15 years to learn -- is that it is a serious mistake to think of "happy wonderful" as being the real her and "miserably depressed" as the temporary sick her. 

"Happy wonderful" is only part of her and, most likely, is a part she was able to sustain for six months only because she was infatuated with you -- a situation that is long gone. The unhappy depressed wife also constitutes the "real her" and, most likely, is far more representative. 

What I am trying to say -- and what Blanca seems to imply -- is that no matter how hard you work, there is no "happy wife" to return to. What you see today is your real wife and she will remain that way until she herself works very hard with a good therapist to change herself -- which she likely will not do as long as you continue to play the role of enabler. Having played that role for 15 years, I am hopeful that you will become self-aware enough to avoid going down the painful path I took. It sounds like both of you could benefit greatly from therapy.

This may come as a shock to you -- as it certainly did to me -- but an emotionally healthy man does not marry a woman like my exW or your wife. Specifically, he does not marry a woman suffering from BPD (my exW). Never mind that I adored her. Nor does he stay married to a horribly depressed woman who won't take her medication, is not in therapy, has no interest in what he says, and cannot stand to be in the same room with him when he eats, talks, snores, or taps his foot (i.e., your W). 

The only men willing to spend their lives taking care of such women are caretaker guys like us. Your wanting to help people is not the problem. That is an admirable goal. Rather, the problem is that you are willing to keep helping people even when it is to your great detriment to do so. How did you ever get this way, wanting to ignore your own needs? 

The short answer is that your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). The result is that, like me, you end up mistaking _being needed_ for _being loved_. That is, you likely have codependent aspects to your personality, being a caregiver type like I am. If so, you are drawn to wounded women and you ignore all the men running in the opposite direction. You also ignore the fact that the wounds are injuries you cannot possibly fix or heal. 

We ignore those red flags because we want so much to be the knight on the white horse. Or, as you say, we want to "rise to the occasion" and "be the man to save her." But sadly, attempting to heal your wife's depression, auditory disorder, and controling nature with your love and devotion is a fool's errand.

The long answer is provided by Shari Shreiber at GettinBetter.com/needlove.html. The article is fairly technical but is the best explanation I have seen. Schreiber (a therapist) explains how we learn "codependency" primarily in childhood. Please do not be dissuaded by her use of that term. It is a very misleading way to describe caregivers like us. 

All the people I've met with strong traits of codependency are, in nearly all aspects of their lives, fiercely independent. Hence, the typical "codependent" person will be working full time while taking care of three children, four dogs, and a cat -- and will still go out looking for a spouse to take care of too. 

Qbert, please start taking better care of yourself. A good place to start is a therapist who will teach you how to build stronger personal boundaries. That's where I started after my exW, who had been growing increasingly resentful each year over my inability to make her happy or fix her, ended our marriage.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

Uptown -

What your saying rings true in a LOT of ways...

I'm going to have to mull a lot of that over. I definitely don't want to end our marriage (we have a 7 week old son and a 7 year old, my stepson). And I really love her and can see a bright future with her ... but of course that's if we clear things up and get past a lot of problems.

So, my question is, how can I HELP her get to the point where she seeks out help? You know what I mean? I won't be leaving any time soon. How can I back off from the situation, while still being here for her and giving her whatever she needs to get to a better place in life?

I admit to being willing to stick it out for the kids and because I care very much about her and I want to see her get better. What can I do within THAT realm?

How can I take care of myself, too?


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

And please realize that she isn't as bad as my quotes make her sound. She's still a wonderful, caring person with a lot of good in her, she just has a lot of problems and I don't think she was ever ina place to take care of herself and get through those problems herself.

To rephrase my last questions: *How can I help without enabling?*


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Qbert, you start by obtaining professional advice as to exactly what you two are dealing with. I realize that, with you having money issues and children to raise, you may be reluctant to start paying for therapy. Yet, with all your problems, I don't see how you can afford to not do seek therapy. Keep in mind that therapists use a sliding scale in what they charge -- based on ability to pay -- and if you are here in the USA there oftentimes are state programs making therapists available at little cost.

How do you know she suffers only from depression? Did a psychologist say so or a medical doctor? I ask because regular medical doctors often cannot distinguish among depression, bipolar disorder, and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Part of the confusion is caused by the fact that BPD is usually accompanied by another illness like bipolar, regular depression, or another PD. 

It is unlikely that she has BPD because only 10 to 12 percent of the population likely has strong traits of it (and only 6% have it at the diagnostic level). I mention it as a possibility only because BPD-type anger or rages are event triggered. That is, they occur within 15 seconds or so after you say or do some innocent thing that triggers a release of anger inside the other person. Such dark changes in emotions typically last 5 hours, rarely as long as 36 hours. 

This event-triggered anger somewhat resembles the "M" disorder your wife has that causes her to react angrily to sounds that she hates. But these disorders are two totally different things. Whereas the M disorder appears to be caused by an oversensitive connection between the auditory system and the brain, BPD is believed to be caused by heredity or abandonment or abuse in early childhood. In any event, a good psychologist would know the difference. So, unless a professional raises the issue of BPD, please do not mention it to your wife. I am just discussing it with you to explain why I am interested in knowing whether her moods are triggered by events or, rather, by body chemistry changes.

With depression and bipolar, changes are very gradual because it takes a while for body chemistry to change. With bipolar, for example, 4 mood changes a year is considered "rapid cycling." Those moods typically last a couple of weeks and take a week or two to build up. In contrast, BPD dark moods are completely different. Because they are event triggered, they start almost instantly and last about five hours. So a person can have many such occurrences in a week.

I am not a psychologist. I am familiar with these disorders because I have spent many years taking care of a bipolar foster son and a BPD exW. As I said, I am a caretaker like you, Qbert. Incidentally, if you respond tonight, it will be tomorrow night when I respond back. It is after midnight here (USA) and I must get some rest.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

Again, greatly appreciate the feedback and info!

I want to go on record as saying I'm definitely not perfect or innocent all the time. I know I get stressed out and might have a grumpy tone. And during fights I've definitely messed up and caused a lot of problems and hurt that I regret. Said things to hurt when I really don't want to hurt. Even been violent and aggressive (not hitting).

I AM seeking professional help, or at least starting to. It was really hard for me, but I needed to call because of my anger and stress. Typically I'm a really calm, happy, positive guy, but when things get really bad with her moods, sometimes I lose it (or *allow* myself to lose it, when I should stay in control).

It's gotten to the point where it scares both of us, so first and foremost, I need to get counseling to fix that problem right now! Regardless of how frustrating she can be, or how stressed I can get with work and money problems, being angry and violent is never the answer.

She doesn't want to seek therapy, seems very skeptical of it. But, I was hoping after a while of me being in there, we could switch to marriage counseling or something.

I'm not certain that it is depression or just depression. I don't really know anything about that. It's what I would call depression and anxiety, but it may be a totally different thing.

A bit more about us:

She had a really good up-bringing, parents with money, happy home, her mom sounds like she had been absolutely wonderful growing up. From there, she moved out to live with a guy who ended up being abusive, that's who she had my step-son with, and who I eventually saved her from and moved her across country. Oh, and she suffered from the "M" disorder since she was a little girl and it's always caused her problems and heart-ache. She has also had eating disorders; anorexia and bulimia. That is something I actually helped her with, teaching her healthier ways to stay fit, though she recently relapsed a bit. I think she can get that back under control. All these things, and the death of her mother, have really made life hard on her and I don't feel she's ever gotten a chance to deal with any of it. I've been trying and she made quite a bit of progress, but with our new stress building, money and such, it's getting worse.

I, on the other hand, had a horribly poor up-bringing with two alcoholic parents who were dirt-poor, abusive to each other (mentally and physically), and I was fat, so that just compounded everything. I was able to fight against that trend, lose weight, avoid alcohol, start my career, and be pretty successful at everything. After we got together, though, my anger started to come back. In my teenage years I had some issues, obviously due to my parents, but thought I'd beaten them. It wasn't until really loving someone and fighting with her that that side of me came out again. I'm ashamed to have such anger in me. It's like when I just can't find a way to make things better, when they just keep getting worse and worse in a fight, I just release all the stress at once. Definitely not the right thing to do. Working on better ways to deal with that confusion and stress.

Started rambling a bit here, but I thought most of that would be relevant.

We're both good people, and we both love each other and our family, and I know we do a lot better with less stress in life, but now we're stuck with the stress and it can't go away any time soon.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Qbert, I was not surprised to read that your parents were alcoholics. In the Schreiber article I provided a link to, you will find that she mentions (in the last third of the article) that it is fairly common for codependents like us to be raised in a family having an alcoholic parent who relies on the child to satisfy much of the parent's needs -- not vice versa as it should be. This results in the child growing up with the mistaken belief that being needed is being loved. Indeed, as adults, we find that we cannot feel that we are really loved unless the person desperately needs us. 

Like you, I grew up too quickly because, with my dad being alcoholic, my mother relied on me at a young age to be the "little man" of the family. Also like you, I was such a "fixer" that there was no way I was ever going to be an alcoholic. In fact, I was so afraid of alcohol that I did not drink a beer until I was nearly 40.


qbert said:


> So, my question is, how can I HELP her get to the point where she seeks out help? How can I help her without enabling her?


Qbert, you are already encouraging her to seek professional guidance and have told her that it is well worth devoting family funds to. Also, you have encouraged her by example, i.e., by starting to see a therapist by yourself to work on your anger issue. (I was greatly relieved to read that you have already started therapy.) On top of that, it seems clear that you have bent over backwards to try to present a balanced view of what has transpired between you and your wife, including a frank discussion of your role in the nasty arguments.

Beyond that, there really is only two things I know of that you could do -- that are not enabling -- if you really find her behavior intolerable -- as had seemed the case in your first posting. One would be to stipulate that her seeking therapy is a necessary condition for your willingness to remain in the marriage. But, of course, it is now apparent that you are not willing to do that because you feel that her behavior is tolerable and you are hopeful it will pass when the financial stress eventually disappears (albeit, no time soon). Moreover, if you were to force her into seeking therapy, it likely would prove to be a waste of time and money if she is strongly committed only to showing up for appointments -- not to working on her issues. 

The other thing in the "helpful but not enabling" category is to learn how to give her more affirmation about her feelings when she is upset, i.e., to validate that her feelings are real and that you recognize she is entitled to them even when the two of you disagree on the actual source or cause of those feelings. Validation is especially important if one of her parents kept denying that she had a valid reason for being upset. 

When a person experiences that for years during early childhood, she can feel like her opinion and feelings are not respected all through her adult life. Although your wife was fortunate to have loving parents, it is easy to imagine how a child with her rare auditory disorder may have had years of frustration trying to persuade her parents that certain sounds were painful or extremely irritating to her. 

As a migraine sufferer, I am very sympathetic to that problem because I spent 15 years with my exW and step kids who never were convinced that my headaches could be easily triggered by scents that none of them could smell. As bad as that was for me as an adult, the invalidation of my feelings would have been ten times more exasperating if I had been a young child. And it would have been worse still if I had an extremely rare condition that caused my complaints to really be highly implausible.


> How can I back off from the situation, while still being here for her and giving her whatever she needs to get to a better place in life?


In addition to her auditory problem, your wife also may have difficulty controlling her emotions and impulses -- as her moodiness and eating disorders seem to suggest. If so, she will likely experience very intense emotions, during which time the feelings are so strong that -- to her -- they constitute reality. Whenever that happens to any of us, we hand over the full control of our behavior to our inner child and lose touch with the adult logical part of our mind. 

Hence, during those periods, you cannot possibly have a rational logical discussion with her because you are effectively talking to the young girl inside her. Of course, the same thing happens to you when you get extremely angry, as you know all too well. 

That is why the two of you should have an agreement to back off and let things cool down when discussions start getting heated. "Backing off" is much easier said than done, however. I found that, with my exW, she would feel so strongly that the matter had to be immediately resolved that she could not stand my backing off and leaving the room (sometimes, leaving the apartment). So she always created some threat or hook to hold me there. The threat meant that some great financial loss would surely occur if I were to leave. I therefore think it is great that you now have a therapist who can guide you with techniques for managing your anger.


> How can I take care of myself too?


The important thing, IMO, is for you to stop suppressing yourself -- and acting in a way that is not true to yourself -- in an effort to avoid triggering another outburst of anger from your wife. That is what I did. I started being my real self again, which means that I no longer allowed my exW to engage me in another drama over nothing. When she would start up, I simply told her that I understood she felt that way and was sorry she was so unhappy. Then I promptly disengaged and went about my business, doing my own thing. 

I would give you more details about how to do it but I never did get much practice at it. After doing it a few times, she was so unhappy over her loss of control over me -- and so resentful that I would not make her happy -- that she ended the marriage. It was one of the best things that ever happened to me because, as a codependent, I was then incapable of abandoning her. Doing so would go against every fiber in my being and nearly every value I held. In your case, the new therapist should be able to help you not only with anger management but also with building stronger personal boundaries so you will know how and when to disengage when your wife is not respecting your needs and boundaries.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

Wow! I really appreciate the in depth answer. This makes me feel better.

I am definitely incapable of abandoning her, so the idea of me saying she needs to go into therapy or I'd end the marriage ... I just don't think either of us would buy that, so it would probably just come off as me sounding like a jerk. But I will try to stay firm to what I feel is good for our family. I know I don't like our son seeing her extreme emotions. We try to talk to him about it and just let him know that mommy is just really sad right now, but she'll be okay and I'll do everything I can to make her feel better. Despite the argument we try to (unless the argument gets way overboard) make sure he's not hurt by it and knows that we still love each other.

I'm DEFINITELY trying to validate her feelings, but I accidentally mess that up all the time. I have a hard time realizing when I should just say, "Oh, I'm sorry you're unhappy honey." or something like that. I tend to do the "fix it" thing and before I know it we're in an argument and that's when I realize I should have said it. Try to backstep, but she's usually too upset by that point. Sometimes I pull it off and once I let her know I'm listening and she's fine for feeling that way, then things resolve, but it just feels like disarming a bomb to me. One tiny little mistake in language and it flares up immediately. But, yeah, I'm constantly trying to work on it. My brain just really doesn't want to work that way.

About backing off, I have to admit that is a problem I have. I want so badly for us to not be fighting or for her to realize I didn't mean what she thinks I mean, that I tend to keep talking and keep at the 'debate' until it's too much. Another thing I'm working on. When I start feeling temper raise (which usually isn't just a jerk thing, but again, is because I'm upset that we're fighting) I try to take a break. I still look like a jerk because I'm a bit of a bomb myself, so I usually have to storm off, cool down, then come back and try again. She's usually pretty upset with me for that, though, so it makes fixing it that much harder. I can tell I'm making a bit of progress, though.

Definitely doesn't help when I've been up for two-days straight working and downing coffee and energy drinks and suddenly there's a fight and I'm in a dream world. MUCH harder for me to control my temper or even realize we're fighting. THAT'S gotta change right along with the money trouble.

Eventually, I want to be able to see the signs WAY ahead of time and say, "Honey, I care very much about what you're saying. I need to take a moment to think about it and then we can finish the conversation. I love you. I'll be back in a minute." THEN take the break. I WILL DO IT!!

Thank you for your encouraging!!!


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

qbert said:


> You're turning this around to me trying to change her or being overbearing and that's not what's happening either.


i really wasnt trying to turn it around. i guess i take these kinds of posts personally because i am a chronically depressed person and my H is very much like you- or he was in the beginning. he was always trying to make me happy. But I honestly dont know why people like being here. that is beyond me. I think "happy" people are the ones that need a head check... 

what helped my H and i the most was working on our boundaries (we did some boundary books together). even though i wanted him to stop trying to change me, i still held him responsible when i felt like crap, and i would take out my bad mood on him still expecting him to be nice to me. that wasnt fair to him at all. But he was very much like you (dad was alcoholic) and felt really guilty for saying no to me or getting angry at me. He thought if he loved me he would need to make me happy, and many times that meant giving up things he loved to do. at the same time he resented me for feeling like he couldnt say no, and for feeling like he was responsible for making me feel better. it was a crazy dynamic with all kinds of mixed signals flying around. 

In any case, i still hate life, dont really get the point and find it all together hardly tolerable. but i dont hold my H emotionally hostage anymore and that is the key. My H no longer thinks he needs to change me. He loves me just the way i am, albeit with some new boundaries in place. the problem is not the depression. the problem is a lack of boundaries about what emotions belong to whom, and whom is responsible for what emotions.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

I definitely see some parallels between me and your 'H', but you sound quite different from my wife. She's not melancholy about life; as you saying, you don't get the point and find it barely tolerable.

My wife loves life and family and reaching goals and going to Disneyland. I mean, there is a really happy person in there that wants to be allowed to always be out in the open, but she takes things VERY hard, so when times are tough, she's VERY down. The side of her that wants to, for example, go to Disneyland, suddenly starts saying "We'll never be able to go again. Nothing will ever be okay. Everything's all messed up. We don't have any money. I'm too fat to be seen in public. I just don't want to be alive anymore."

See what I mean? When she's down, she doesn't want to be alive. When we have money in the bank and haven't had a fight in a while or any rough work deadlines, she starts back on the road to happiness. It's very much a rollercoaster and our lives have been very stressful over the past few years. Lots of ups and downs.

So, I completely understand WHY she's upset. I just get worried about HOW upset she gets and how quickly, and that when she does, it's like something in her brain wants to trap her there. Really, nothing will make it better, certainly not her, until after whatever the problem is gets resolved and something good happens to balance it. She seems completely reluctant and downright aggressive towards ideas of how to make her feel better.

And I get so baffled because she doesn't like living this way, doesn't want to be this way, but doesn't do anything to change it.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

qbert said:


> And I get so baffled because she doesn't like living this way, doesn't want to be this way, but doesn't do anything to change it.


And until she does truly want to do something to change things, to recognize that she has problems and want to address them, nothing is going to change. Nothing YOU DO is going to make her happy. She has to want to change, if not for herself, then for her children and marriage. 

In the meantime, you sound like you are both miserable. It's sad. She needs to get herself in therapy and see a psychiatrist. Not the family doctor, but doctor who specializes in treating mental disorders and can determine what exactly is her problem and treat it. It easy to say she's "depressed" or "anxious" but harder to actually determine exactly what is wrong and address it properly. 

Until you do there won't be any improvement in either of your lives and your problems and these posts of yours will continue ad infinitum.


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## qbert (Mar 31, 2010)

We're not exactly miserable. We're happy a lot of the time until stress hits one or both of us or if my wife is having a bad day (due to extreme insomnia or stress). It's once there is a negative stimuli then we both handle things badly.

The other stuff about her being subtly controlling and demanding, that I can keep my feelings under control about most always, though it does wear on me from time to time.


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