# Did my wife cheat, or am I crazy???



## Ever-Man

Not sure if the wife is cheating, please help, I will try to be concise.
Evidence:
*lots of sexy underwear in her drawer she never wears with me, but I have seen her wear to work 
*when I suggested a surprise weekday dinner out, she exclaimed "noooo!!" as if I was interupting other plans she was looking forward too. She quickly backed off and accepted the "date".
*passionless sex without eye contact or any effort on her part, just a chore. 
* comments accusing me of cheating, and negative comments regarding my character, basic bickering, and pointedly "You better make more money so you can keep me". 

Investigation:
*Installed a VAR, found nothing, though I only did it for a week. 
*found no other evidence, no red flags, just my "gut feeling". 

Confrontation:
I can't shake this "gut feeling" that something is up, so, as we were preparing for a trip abroad, I asked her at dinner "Do you still want to be in a realtionship with me... I had a feeling perhaps you were seeing someone else"...

*Her first response was "WHy are you bringing this up now?" , and she looked "concerned"and listened while eating and not making eye contact.
*I ask "why all the sexy underwear, I never see it, and why do you wear it to work", and she was somewhat speechless, said the underwear was uncomfortable to her, and anyway she didn't have that much sexy underwear, we look thru her drawer and it is actually more than 50% of what is in the drawer. She got a guilty look on her face, a sheepish smile. 
*"Are you seeing someone at work"...and she laughed and asked if I saw all the ugly men she worked with. Then she mentioned she was "insulted" that I believe she would cheat, because cheating was a "character flaw" and "disgraceful". Then she CHANGED THE SUBJECT...
*I ask "Do you believe I cheat" and she laughed disrespectfully, as if this is incomprehensible, and said she doesn't suspect me of cheating. (My impression, she implied no woman would want me?). 
*Then I asked about her old boyfriend, she once told me that he called her asking to meet for drinks. At this point she says THIS NEVER HAPPENED...then she added that I have a lot of baggage from my previous experience with the cheating X... and she insisted that I BELIEVE that she did not cheat. 

NOW I see different behavior
*she became much nicer to me, now has "present sex" where she looks at me and makes an effort. 
*A week later she brings this up out-of-the-blue: "I didn't cheat and I will take a lie detector test if you like". 
* out-of-the-blue she tells me she loves me, and has mentioned that we will never get a divorce since "neither of us cheats". 

I don't know what to make of all this. I am leaning towards believing she cheated, but I am also somewhat paranoid due to my x-wife's infidelity. I am confused. Any insight is greatly appreciated.


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## Chris989

Hi,

To be fair it sounds like maybe she was *thinking* of it and your talk gave her a kick up the back side.

I don't think you have enough to go on beyond that.

On the other hand, my vstbxw did say all of the above when I challenged her and we maintained a good sex life pretty much throughout the 2 1/2 year pa she had with a loser.

She also began to swear on our kids' lives that she hadn't cheated - when she had cheated the very night before.

So, after I started typing thinking you are being paranoid, I have finished by thinking your wife is banging someone else silly and you got close to catching her, so now she is covering it up...


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## CH

If it'll put your mind at ease, take her up on her offer for a lie detector test.

Some red flags but nothing definitive yet.


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## walkonmars

tell her that yes - you can't shake the nagging feeling that she's been seeing someone - even if not for sex. You appreciate her gesture because you want to have a deep relationship with her. 

Thank her for being "present" and tell her you noticed the difference and are grateful she's been so committed lately. You want to continue that way. Ask her if there's anything you can do to improve the marriage. 

Offer to take a poly with her. Then see if she backs out or argues against the poly for whatever reason. ANY reason is a red flag.


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## chillymorn

if it waks like a duck.......... trust your gut and keep snooping until your satisfyed shes not ,but don't be to surprised if she is thats a lot of red flags in my book.


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## Tomlongisland

I was in a similar situation. I even saw emails that were passed between my wife and another guy. She even met him. She denied it for a long time and yes lied very good. Eventually she came clean. She said it wasn't sexual. I believed her but knew at the very least it was an emotional affair which I considered as worse and could lead to physical anyway. The decision really became do I love her and want to try to make it work. I decided to make it work. We went to counseling to improve communication between us. It has helped. If I were you I would probably forget what happened or might have happened in the past and focus on the future if you want to save the marriage. Your wife is making an obvious effort so give her the chance. I agree with a previous poster she might have been considering an affair but may not have gone through with it. 

Bottom line is she said the affair wasn't physical and agreed not to speak to contact the guy anymore.


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## Chaparral

Schedule the polygraph. Then see what she says.


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## ThreeStrikes

No evidence. I'd say no. Maybe she was thinking about it, but you have nothing to go on.

Keep being vigilant. Keylogger on the computer.

Check cell phone logs on-line. 

Does she let you see her phone?


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## warlock07

All the stuff she is doing will taper off when she thinks you are off the trail...throw her a bait to see if she takes it..!!


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## Ever-Man

thanks for the responses, and, Chris989, the laughs. 

I am ambiguous, but having been thru this before, as I told my wife "I can't be fooled", since it is mostly a "feeling" that can be most telling. 

I agree that this requires more snooping, there are a lot of red flags, also including she asked to break it off once. 

I feel like I married the same woman as my X: she sees me as second best, but good enough until something better comes along. 

I did notice that when I asked if she was cheating she didn't say "I am happy and love and respect you to much" she said "It is a character flaw to cheat". 

Does anyone think offering to take a lie detector test was a sign of guilt?


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## Ever-Man

warlock07 said:


> All the stuff she is doing will taper off when she thinks you are off the trail...throw her a bait to see if she takes it..!!


I am thinking about this too, perhaps have a man approach her and see if she is receptive. Or maybe a GPS, or more VAR. 

Since we do not live together she does have a lot of time and opportunity to cheat. Another bit of evidence came when she smirked and said "If you have suspicians perhaps you should move in with me".


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## Link182

ThreeStrikes said:


> No evidence. I'd say no. Maybe she was thinking about it, but you have nothing to go on.
> 
> Keep being vigilant. Keylogger on the computer.
> 
> Check cell phone logs on-line.
> 
> Does she let you see her phone?


:iagree:

I thought it was just my WW that was addicted to her phone, but after coming to TAM I found most cheaters lock that thing up like Ft. Knox subconsciously. Have you checked you cell records? Does she stay up late at night after you are gone to bed? Some other similar threads for cheaters.

Definitely red flags there for me, admittedly not knowing your exact situation.


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## Ever-Man

Tomlongisland said:


> I was in a similar situation. I even saw emails that were passed between my wife and another guy. She even met him. She denied it for a long time and yes lied very good. Eventually she came clean. She said it wasn't sexual. I believed her but knew at the very least it was an emotional affair which I considered as worse and could lead to physical anyway. The decision really became do I love her and want to try to make it work. I decided to make it work. We went to counseling to improve communication between us. It has helped. If I were you I would probably forget what happened or might have happened in the past and focus on the future if you want to save the marriage. Your wife is making an obvious effort so give her the chance. I agree with a previous poster she might have been considering an affair but may not have gone through with it.
> 
> Bottom line is she said the affair wasn't physical and agreed not to speak to contact the guy anymore.


Thanks for the advice, we have a good enough relationship, been married 7 years now, I just don't want to be blind-sided again. If I were you, I would have concerns as well.


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## Toffer

Go straight to the polygraph

Do not pas go

Do not spend more time and money on VARs

Trust your gut


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## WTHISTHIS?

Im running into the 180 degree change with my W as well. I did something that allowed me to bring up a conversation and the next day she is completely different...and has remained that way for about two weeks.


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## Ever-Man

Link182 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I thought it was just my WW that was addicted to her phone, but after coming to TAM I found most cheaters lock that thing up like Ft. Knox subconsciously. Have you checked you cell records? Does she stay up late at night after you are gone to bed? Some other similar threads for cheaters.
> 
> Definitely red flags there for me, admittedly not knowing your exact situation.


None of this, she is not into modern devices, no FB, no IM, doesn't really text, leaves her phone right there in the open, is not secretive. 

Biggest red flag is the underwear. WHy so much if it is "itchy", why keep buying it, or having it in your drawer if you never wear it with me? I just can't get over this detail.


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## arbitrator

If you haven't already done so and you actually have a joint cell-phone account with her, it's high time that you start examining her cell phone call and text logs, for say the past year. It's contingent upon you to see when and where she's been placing, as well as receiving calls and texts.

After due examination, if you should find that there's an inordinate number of calls/texts to or from a particular phone number other than your own, then I'd greatly say that that would indeed be your "smoking gun."


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## MattMatt

She might have been thinking about it, then realised if she did cheat, she'd be as bad as your xw. Maybe she talked herself out of it in her discussion with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ever-Man

WTHISTHIS? said:


> Im running into the 180 degree change with my W as well. I did something that allowed me to bring up a conversation and the next day she is completely different...and has remained that way for about two weeks.


I am not interested in a poly as I do not believe it is accurate, and failing can be explained away. Does anyone have experiences with this? 

Behavior can be telling, and I can't shake the fact that after I brought this up, she is much nicer to me, though it is tapering off a bit too. 

THis is hard to interpret: a sign of guilt, or is it done because she is concerned that I do not feel secure in the relationship? 

If she were truly "angry" that I suspect her of infidelity, wouldn't she be "less nice", and angrily bring it up "Perhaps we will stay married long-term, as long as you stop accusing me of cheating" as opposed to being nicer and saying sheepishly "We will stay together since neither of us cheats", waiting to see my response.


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## Ever-Man

MattMatt said:


> She might have been thinking about it, then realised if she did cheat, she'd be as bad as your xw. Maybe she talked herself out of it in her discussion with you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've gotten mixed messages from her regarding infidelity. Since we do not live together full-time, she mentioned, more than once, that she would rather have me get a girlfriend than move into my house. She has also said that if she catches me cheating she will divorce me. Conversely, when her sister's husband was cheating, she thought it would be permissible if he only treated her sister well while having girlfriends on the side.

SHe has a "dark-side" and I mentioned to her that while I know she is not the type to be unfaithful, "you have a dark side" and she admitted this in a guilty manner, not making eye contact with me when she said it.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> I am thinking about this too, perhaps have a man approach her and see if she is receptive. Or maybe a GPS, or more VAR.
> 
> *Since we do not live together she does have a lot of time and opportunity to cheat.* Another bit of evidence came when she smirked and said "If you have suspicians perhaps you should move in with me".


Wait...what? :scratchhead:


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## tom67

You are married but don't live together?


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## Ever-Man

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Wait...what? :scratchhead:


Yes, we maintain separate homes which we both already owned coming into the marriage and which, for logistics, and child-rearing reasons, we keep this arrangement, though I am at her place 4 nights a week. For a long time I did not have weekends free (parenting schedule), and this is when I believe something happened. WHen I started suspecting I asked her "What do you do Saturday nights" and she just stumbled all over herself coming up with an answer.


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## barbados

I see some red flags here for sure. The underwear thing isn't a good sign, especially when she is only wearing it to work and didn't seem to give you any really good answer about it. Not proof, but you should keep digging to be sure either way.


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## tom67

Maybe a var in her house as well as the car jmo.


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## staystrong

Can I be blunt? 

Schedule the polygraph, mister. Do it yesterday. 

Explain to her that you were so pleased that she offered, because it means that she's willing to be transparent with you. Tell her she knows how horrible it was that your first wife cheated on you, and the polygraph would really help you to clear away the anxiety. Frame it as she is the super hero wife for doing this. 

Now let's work on your set of questions!


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## Samus

Ever-Man said:


> Yes, we maintain separate homes which we both already owned coming into the marriage and which, for logistics, and child-rearing reasons, we keep this arrangement, though I am at her place 4 nights a week. For a long time I did not have weekends free (parenting schedule), and this is when I believe something happened. WHen I started suspecting I asked her "What do you do Saturday nights" and she just stumbled all over herself coming up with an answer.


Say what?? There is no reason ever for a husband and wife to live a part. This makes no sense. I am not bashing you, but I want you to understand this gives any spouse an opportunity to be unfaithful. 

Logistics reasons and Child REARING?? Your setting yourself of for failure here, you need to tell your wife to move into your home, or pick which house you want to live in and move in together. 

If your logistics reason is because the houses are under water and you can't short sale because of credit, rent one out and try to cover the mortgage with the rent. This makes no sense and you have been cheated on before and you allowed this type of living situation? 

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but again your setting yourself up for failure. I bet those lingeries were used on those weekends you don't see her. 

Can you possibily give us more information instead of giving it in tidbits, it will help us help you better. Not living with your wife is a big issue man.

Oh yeah and do the polygraph. She is definetly up to no good, lingerie that she never wears for you, why have them? Alone on the weekends, wearing the lingerie to work, are HUGE red flags. HUGE. She could possibly be having an affair. Highly possible. In this situation your gut is likely right, sad to say.

By the way this is not a marriage. A marriage is when a husband and wife lives together in the same home and creates a family and loving environment together under the same roof. Not live in separate houses, unless your in the military and away, there is no reason, at least that can't be resolved, for spouses to live in separate houses. Don't you guys love each other enough to be amongst each other everyday???


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## Ever-Man

staystrong said:


> Can I be blunt?
> 
> Schedule the polygraph, mister. Do it yesterday.
> 
> Explain to her that you were so pleased that she offered, because it means that she's willing to be transparent with you. Tell her she knows how horrible it was that your first wife cheated on you, and the polygraph would really help you to clear away the anxiety. Frame it as she is the super hero wife for doing this.
> 
> Now let's work on your set of questions!


Hmmmm, tuff one as I think poly's are not reliable. What if she fails, but is truthful, imagine the trouble that would create. I want solid evidence, or an admission. In the end, all the stories, feedback and threads on TAM are quite enlightening. Does anyone know of a polygraph thread?


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## Ever-Man

Samus said:


> Say what?? There is no reason ever for a husband and wife to live a part. This makes no sense. I am not bashing you, but I want you to understand this gives any spouse an opportunity to be unfaithful.
> 
> Logistics reasons and Child REARING?? Your setting yourself of for failure here, you need to tell your wife to move into your home, or pick which house you want to live in and move in together.
> 
> If your logistics reason is because the houses are under water and you can't short sale because of credit, rent one out and try to cover the mortgage with the rent. This makes no sense and you have been cheated on before and you allowed this type of living situation?
> 
> I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but again your setting yourself up for failure. I bet those lingeries were used on those weekends you don't see her.
> 
> Can you possibily give us more information instead of giving it in tidbits, it will help us help you better. Not living with your wife is a big issue man.
> 
> Oh yeah and do the polygraph. She is definetly up to no good, lingerie that she never wears for you, why have them? Alone on the weekends, wearing the lingerie to work, are HUGE red flags. HUGE. She could possibly be having an affair. Highly possible. In this situation your gut is likely right, sad to say.
> 
> By the way this is not a marriage. A marriage is when a husband and wife lives together in the same home and creates a family and loving environment together under the same roof. Not live in separate houses, unless your in the military and away, there is no reason, at least that can't be resolved, for spouses to live in separate houses. Don't you guys love each other enough to be amongst each other everyday???


Yeah, it seems too obvious when it is all added together. Living apart 3 days a week is due to work schedules, and she won't move in with me (hates my town, the 'burbs) while her place is just too small. 

She did say to me "If you suspect me, you should move in with me" while smiling slyly, almost a mocking grin. 

These are the details that make me most suspicious; when there is a 'personality alteration' from what I am accostumed to. When a 'sweet person' shows elements of cruelty, like it leaks out unexpectably and beyond their control/awareness.

My x-wife was like this: seemed like a faithful, caring, loving person, all the while cheating behind my back and then cruelly dumping me.

I fear I married the same kind of person.


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## staystrong

You haven't read enough threads on TAM.

Chapparal only said schedule the polygraph and see what her reaction is. 

She may get defensive, she may get evasive, or she may acquiesce only to give you a "parking lot confession" once you reach the polygraph lab. 

You need to think about this more in terms of action-reaction, not a quest for unadulterated truth. You're quite possibly in a cheater's world now and the rules are different.


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## Samus

Ever-Man said:


> Yeah, it seems too obvious when it is all added together. Living apart 3 days a week is due to work schedules, and she won't move in with me (hates my town, the 'burbs) while her place is just too small.
> 
> She did say to me "If you suspect me, you should move in with me" while smiling slyly, almost a mocking grin.
> 
> These are the details that make me most suspicious; when there is a 'personality alteration' from what I am accostumed to. When a 'sweet person' shows elements of cruelty, like it leaks out unexpectably and beyond their control/awareness.
> 
> My x-wife was like this: seemed like a faithful, caring, loving person, all the while cheating behind my back and then cruelly dumping me.
> 
> I fear I married the same kind of person.


Your wife wants you to live with her, Perhaps she is trying to tell you something. Perhaps you should be living with her and not let her live alone? How long has this arrangement been going on? Perhaps she has become lonely and has cheated (not your fault if she did by the way) but this living situation is a bigger issue then perhaps you guys considered. It causes separation and it doesn't give you the ability to be a leader of the household. 

I hope she is not cheating on you, but if my wife was doing that I would FREAK!! I think you have handled this well, but at the end of the day, something is not right when one's wife is wearing lingerie to work, but never for you. 

How did you meet this woman? How long after you left your previous cheating spouse did you hook up with this one? Do you have kids together, or are these kids you talking about from another marriage?


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## 2asdf2

Ever-Man said:


> Hmmmm, tuff one as I think poly's are not reliable. What if she fails, but is truthful, imagine the trouble that would create. I want solid evidence, or an admission. In the end, all the stories, feedback and threads on TAM are quite enlightening. Does anyone know of a polygraph thread?


Read the links in my signature.

Your perception is accurate.


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## staystrong

Ever-Man said:


> These are the details that make me most suspicious; when there is a 'personality alteration' from what I am accostumed to. When a 'sweet person' shows elements of cruelty, like it leaks out unexpectably and beyond their control/awareness.


It's a defense mechanism for the guilt AND because they are losing respect for you. Why are they losing respect? Because of their warped little minds. Somehow you should know what they want and need. Somehow, if you were a better man then they wouldn't have to cheat. "Now look at you, I'm cheating on you and you don't even know it. You're so close to the truth but you still can't bring yourself to believe I could do this. But I can. And I treat the OM better, much better." 

Hope that's not your case.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Your single biggest issue is that you are living separated. Four days out of seven is not enough, and probably isn't really 4 days of actual time together when you think about it when you factor in packing up things and what not. How far of a drive is it between your houses?

I'm going to be blunt too. Why bother getting married in the first place if you knew it was going to be an extended separation like this? Was there a plan for it to end? Was this "for the sake of the kids" and this would end when the youngest turns 18???

Sorry OP, I'm confused and surprised. Pretty clear why you two have issues and I'm shocked you couldn't see this as a disaster in the making by agreeing to this arrangement in the first place.


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## warlock07

The polygraph thing is a hit and a miss. It can turn out bad since he does not have any proof . OP, can you afford a PI ? On your days off ?


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## Ever-Man

staystrong said:


> You haven't read enough threads on TAM.
> 
> Chapparal only said schedule the polygraph and see what her reaction is.
> 
> She may get defensive, she may get evasive, or she may acquiesce only to give you a "parking lot confession" once you reach the polygraph lab.
> 
> You need to think about this more in terms of action-reaction, not a quest for unadulterated truth. You're quite possibly in a cheater's world now and the rules are different.


THe more I investigate my feelings via TAM and all your invaluable input, the more I believe I might need to do this, but it is FOR ME, with the small amount of evidence I have. Plus, even if she is cheating, I do not want a D, I just do not want to be blind-sided like in my previous marriage. If I do uncover the truth and she knows I know, I believe SHE WILL NOT BE ABLE to remain married to me. 

I am trying to know without her knowing I know.


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## 2asdf2

This thread has a wife passing a polygraph, against the run of the evidence. The poly reference is around page 8-9, but to assess the evidence you have to read the whole thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66387-should-i-give-her-second-chance.html


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## staystrong

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Your single biggest issue is that you are living separated. Four days out of seven is not enough, and probably isn't really 4 days of actual time together when you think about it when you factor in packing up things and what not. How far of a drive is it between your houses?
> 
> I'm going to be blunt too. Why bother getting married in the first place if you knew it was going to be an extended separation like this? Was there a plan for it to end? Was this "for the sake of the kids" and this would end when the youngest turns 18???
> 
> Sorry OP, I'm confused and surprised. Pretty clear why you two have issues and I'm shocked you couldn't see this as a disaster in the making by agreeing to this arrangement in the first place.


:iagree::

It seems like there are two parallel issues in this thread. One is the specific question of whether she is cheating on you already (or thinking about it). The other is the overall integrity of the marriage and how your living situation plays into that.


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## Ever-Man

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Your single biggest issue is that you are living separated. Four days out of seven is not enough, and probably isn't really 4 days of actual time together when you think about it when you factor in packing up things and what not. How far of a drive is it between your houses?
> 
> I'm going to be blunt too. Why bother getting married in the first place if you knew it was going to be an extended separation like this? Was there a plan for it to end? Was this "for the sake of the kids" and this would end when the youngest turns 18???
> 
> Sorry OP, I'm confused and surprised. Pretty clear why you two have issues and I'm shocked you couldn't see this as a disaster in the making by agreeing to this arrangement in the first place.


For you and Samus, she has a small co-op in the city, HER PLACE, I own a house in the 'burbs, originally she was going to spend 1/2 the time at my place, she decided she could not. This modern arrangement works if both spouses are on board, and both of us feel it has worked. In fact, it seems our relationship was best in the early years when we were apart more than we are now. We spend a lot of time together, this is not as big an issue as it may seem, as long as we are both in a trusting relationship. 

It is when I noticed a change in her behavior, that the living arrangement concerned me. It is not the "cause" so much as a complication that offers her (and myself, let's face it) opportunities.


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## Ever-Man

2asdf2 said:


> This thread has a wife passing a polygraph, against the run of the evidence. The poly reference is around page 8-9, but to assess the evidence you have to read the whole thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66387-should-i-give-her-second-chance.html


Thanks, thanks thanks.... I will read this. I think they are unreliable as far as the courts are concerned, though her reaction to taking one may be valuable.


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## Ever-Man

staystrong said:


> :iagree::
> 
> It seems like there are two parallel issues in this thread. One is the specific question of whether she is cheating on you already (or thinking about it). The other is the overall integrity of the marriage and how your living situation plays into that.


Perhaps if she said "I am lonley" the living arrangement would be a 'cause', but both her and I agree our flexibility here relieves a stressor, and does not add one. We never fight about decor, or need to go out to get privacy from eachother.


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## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> For you and Samus, she has a small co-op in the city, HER PLACE, I own a house in the 'burbs, originally she was going to spend 1/2 the time at my place, she decided she could not. *This modern arrangement works if both spouses are on board, and both of us feel it has worked. * In fact, it seems our relationship was best in the early years when we were apart more than we are now. We spend a lot of time together, this is not as big an issue as it may seem, as long as we are both in a trusting relationship.
> 
> It is when I noticed a change in her behavior, that the living arrangement concerned me. It is not the "cause" so much as a complication that offers her (and myself, let's face it) opportunities.


In light of you being here, her comment to you regarding moving in with her, and the fact that she is extremely evasive would you like to revise your statement above? Your arrangement is not working and I'm actually surprised it took this long for things to go south. If you don't address the separate living situation asap I don't see a favorable outcome.


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## Jasel

You need to go ahead with the polygraph. As far as I'm concerned it's less about whether it's reliable or not as much as it's about calling her bluff and seeing how she reacts. Will she REALLY go through with it or was she just offering because knows you won't do it? How will she act in the days leading up to it? On the car ride? In the parking lot? During the actual test? etc.

To me the results are almost secondary because as you said they are not reliable. There is someone else here who has a bunch of polygraph info in their sig which makes for a good read about how unreliable they are but I forgot who.

Also you seem a bit ambiguous in regards to how much you trust your wife. You don't really seem to trust her on one hand and say she has a dark side, but on the other you seem to say how trustworthy is she, how she's spoken against cheating, etc. And I don't know many wives who would even contemplate allowing their husband to have a girlfriend unless they were either not interested in their husband sexually or they were getting some action on the side themselves and wanted to "even the score" so to speak to deal with the guilt.

Cheaters will lie lie lie and lie some more. A lot of them seem to compartmentalize too. When they are in that fog, you do not know the person you're with nearly as well as you think you do. I suggest you try looking at your wife as objectively as you possibly can and not how you want to see her, have always seen her, or how you wish she was.

Because she MIGHT not be cheating but you are listing off some serious red flags. She might not even be having an affair, she might just be ****ing or having ONS. The fact that you have seperate living arrangments makes it all the easier for her and still sounds like a problem to me even though you seem okay with it.


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## Ever-Man

Jasel said:


> You need to go ahead with the polygraph. As far as I'm concerned it's less about whether it's reliable or not as much as it's about calling her bluff and seeing how she reacts. Will she REALLY go through with it or was she just offering because knows you won't do it? How will she act in the days leading up to it? On the car ride? In the parking lot? During the actual test? etc.
> 
> To me the results are almost secondary because as you said they are not reliable. There is someone else here who has a bunch of polygraph info in their sig which makes for a good read about how unreliable they are but I forgot who.
> 
> Also you seem a bit ambiguous in regards to how much you trust your wife. You don't really seem to trust her on one hand and say she has a dark side, but on the other you seem to say how trustworthy is she, how she's spoken against cheating, etc. And I don't know many wives who would even contemplate allowing their husband to have a girlfriend unless they were either not interested in their husband sexually or they were getting some action on the side themselves and wanted to "even the score" so to speak to deal with the guilt.
> 
> Cheaters will lie lie lie and lie some more. A lot of them seem to compartmentalize too. When they are in that fog, you do not know the person you're with nearly as well as you think you do. I suggest you try looking at your wife as objectively as you possibly can and not how you want to see her, have always seen her, or how you wish she was.
> 
> Because she MIGHT not be cheating but you are listing off some serious red flags. She might not even be having an affair, she might just be ****ing or having ONS. The fact that you have seperate living arrangments makes it all the easier for her and still sounds like a problem to me even though you seem okay with it.


WHolly ambiguous, one day I think I am crazy, another day I think her cheating is obvious. I am at the point where I cannot trust my judgement completely, and have come here for altering opinions and experiences. 

We have been together 7 years, don't have kids together, she is not 'warm' to my kids, prefers I did not have them, these are large issues, but every relationship has issues. 

I am willing to work thru all issues and make relationships work, which is why I am vulnerable to being fooled. 

I do need action, given the consensus on this thread, I am bringing the polygraph up again and see where it goes, note the reaction.

Frankly, while I do not want her cheating on me, I would completely forgive it, I more want to know for 'closure'. The trouble is, if she says she is not cheating and is telling the truth, I still cannot believe her given what I know about cheaters lying.


----------



## staystrong

Let's say this. Let's say she thought she found circumstantial evidence of YOU cheating on her. I don't know, a new cologne you never wear for her. A monthly getaway you do with an "old buddy" she's never met or something like that. Let's say she confronted you and seem worried, but you are completely innocent and the idea almost makes you laugh. In fact, you joke about it with a smirk. Your wife, however, gets more and more concerned because she has been cheated on before. As a reflex reaction, you offer to take a polygraph test. Okay, two weeks later she schedules an appointment. Now what, oh you didn't mean it? It was just something to say in the moment? No, you'd go through with it. You'd research it and stuff, but you'd go through with it. Because you have nothing to hide. 

What you want is for her to get all the way to the lab door without hearing any kind of evasion or confession. Maybe that's test enough for you. I personally would go through with the whole thing but I don't know. Remember, she offered. It's not like you are being pushy by taking her up on it. I know it sounds like a weird thing to do because it's so overt. Your other option is to go covert. Sounds like you are more comfortable with that...


----------



## Ever-Man

Jasel said:


> You need to go ahead with the polygraph. As far as I'm concerned it's less about whether it's reliable or not as much as it's about calling her bluff and seeing how she reacts. Will she REALLY go through with it or was she just offering because knows you won't do it? How will she act in the days leading up to it? On the car ride? In the parking lot? During the actual test? etc.
> 
> To me the results are almost secondary because as you said they are not reliable. There is someone else here who has a bunch of polygraph info in their sig which makes for a good read about how unreliable they are but I forgot who.
> 
> Also you seem a bit ambiguous in regards to how much you trust your wife. You don't really seem to trust her on one hand and say she has a dark side, but on the other you seem to say how trustworthy is she, how she's spoken against cheating, etc. And I don't know many wives who would even contemplate allowing their husband to have a girlfriend unless they were either not interested in their husband sexually or they were getting some action on the side themselves and wanted to "even the score" so to speak to deal with the guilt.
> 
> Cheaters will lie lie lie and lie some more. A lot of them seem to compartmentalize too. When they are in that fog, you do not know the person you're with nearly as well as you think you do. I suggest you try looking at your wife as objectively as you possibly can and not how you want to see her, have always seen her, or how you wish she was.
> 
> Because she MIGHT not be cheating but you are listing off some serious red flags. She might not even be having an affair, she might just be ****ing or having ONS. The fact that you have seperate living arrangments makes it all the easier for her and still sounds like a problem to me even though you seem okay with it.


Looking at her objectively, and knowing what her desires are, what her perfect mate would be, it is not me, and since we have no children, no intermingled finances, perhaps my worst suspicians are true, and she is open to options. 

She is beautiful and I am sure she has men hitting on her.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> For you and Samus, she has a small co-op in the city, HER PLACE, I own a house in the 'burbs, originally she was going to spend 1/2 the time at my place, she decided she could not. This modern arrangement works if both spouses are on board, and both of us feel it has worked. In fact, it seems our relationship was best in the early years when we were apart more than we are now. We spend a lot of time together, this is not as big an issue as it may seem, as long as we are both in a trusting relationship.
> 
> It is when I noticed a change in her behavior, that the living arrangement concerned me. It is not the "cause" so much as a complication that offers her (and myself, let's face it) opportunities.


Sorry to say this, but you are wrong about this. With this living arrangement, you two never truly cemented your marital bonds. You two are little more than a dating couple who happen to crash at each other's places. He'll, some dating couples move in together and make a stronger commitment to each other than you and your wife. I find that ironic. Without the cheating, it's clear that you two MUST move in together. But if she cheated? It's up to you for what to do next.


----------



## Jasel

Ever-Man said:


> Looking at her objectively, and knowing what her desires are, what her perfect mate would be, it is not me, and since we have no children, no intermingled finances, perhaps my worst suspicians are true, and she is open to options.
> 
> She is beautiful and I am sure she has men hitting on her.


Well what do you want exactly? Because it sounds like you are her Plan B or at least what she settled for. A man that she can come to on one hand at the end of the day yet has no passion or desire for, as opposed to someone else she has passion or desire for but knows isn't relationship material.

I don't know your wife but it sounds like you care for her a hell of a lot more than she cares for you. Is that a marriage you want to stay in?


----------



## staystrong

Ever-Man said:


> *Frankly, while I do not want her cheating on me, I would completely forgive it, I more want to know for 'closure'.* The trouble is, if she says she is not cheating and is telling the truth, I still cannot believe her given what I know about cheaters lying.


Eh? :scratchhead:


Two VERY important things you need to consider:

1. You are already rugsweeping an affair that hasn't even happened. NO RUGSWEEPING! It never works. Ever. Either it enables an affair to continue or it eats you from the inside over years and years. 

2. You've forgiven her in advance? Trust me, you are kidding yourself. Let's assume she is having an affair. You don't know the emotional depth or physical dirtiness of it. I think you are better off preparing yourself for trauma, not forgiveness. I hope you are least thinking about what your conditions would be for taking her back.


----------



## Ever-Man

staystrong said:


> Let's say this. Let's say she thought she found circumstantial evidence of YOU cheating on her. I don't know, a new cologne you never wear for her. A monthly getaway you do with an "old buddy" she's never met or something like that. Let's say she confronted you and seem worried, but you are completely innocent and the idea almost makes you laugh. In fact, you joke about it with a smirk. Your wife, however, gets more and more concerned because she has been cheated on before. As a reflex reaction, you offer to take a polygraph test. Okay, two weeks later she schedules an appointment. Now what, oh you didn't mean it? It was just something to say in the moment? No, you'd go through with it. You'd research it and stuff, but you'd go through with it. Because you have nothing to hide.
> 
> What you want is for her to get all the way to the lab door without hearing any kind of evasion or confession. Maybe that's test enough for you. I personally would go through with the whole thing but I don't know. Remember, she offered. It's not like you are being pushy by taking her up on it. I know it sounds like a weird thing to do because it's so overt. Your other option is to go covert. Sounds like you are more comfortable with that...


Yes, and thank you, this makes sense. She knows how damaged I was by the first WW, in fact she always thought the X was cruel since I am "such a good person" to screw over with impunity. Maybe that is why she offered, and if she has nothing to hide she would do this, since I have 'baggage" as she noted. 

I am going to mention it again and see where it goes.


----------



## 2asdf2

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks, thanks thanks.... I will read this. I think they are unreliable as far as the courts are concerned, though *her reaction to taking one may be valuable.*


For this purpose, that's the value.


----------



## Jasel

Ever-Man said:


> *Frankly, while I do not want her cheating on me, I would completely forgive it, I more want to know for 'closure'.* The trouble is, if she says she is not cheating and is telling the truth, I still cannot believe her given what I know about cheaters lying.


That mentality is a problem. Women do not respect men who do not stand up for themselves. And they DEFINITELY do not respect men who they screw over who don't stand up for themselves.

Not sure how much you've read through this section but I suggest you spend a few days in your spare time reading through some of the stories here.

The men who don't lay down any consequences for their WS or start talking reconciliation, marriage counseling, "working on the marriage", tell their wife how much they love them, etc as soon as the cheating is discovered? Those men are almost always cheated on again or their wives leave them for someone else.

The men who immediately lay down consequences? File (I'm just saying FILE you don't have to go through with it) for divorce, limit contact, get pissed, kick the spouse out, etc. These men (and even then it's rare) more often than the former get their wives back or at least seem to move on more effectively when they don't.

You have your wife on a pedestal which is higher than yourself. As long as you treat her that way and youself that way she's always going to have the upper hand in this situation. Over you and over the marriage.

I hate the phrase "man up" but now is the time for you to do that.

You should read The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

and http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## Ever-Man

Jasel said:


> Well what do you want exactly? Because it sounds like you are her Plan B or at least what she settled for. A man that she can come to on one hand at the end of the day yet has no passion or desire for, as opposed to someone else she has passion or desire for but knows isn't relationship material.
> 
> I don't know your wife but it sounds like you care for her a hell of a lot more than she cares for you. Is that a marriage you want to stay in?


 Probably true, and yes I would stay since I value her so highly. Let's face it, totally equal marriages are rare, usually one spouse is a better "catch" objectively than another. We are equally attractive, but I am a BETA male, and I do not make as much money as she does. And all she can ever talk about is how important money is to her. 

She married me because her number 1 choice, the millionaire, didn't want to marry her. I suspect she is still seeing him. She told me he called her once and wanted to meet, and then when I brought this up as evidence of my concerns, she denied he ever called her. 

They always talk on her b-day, but she didn't want to talk to him on her most recent b-day,(post accusation of my suspicians) with her mentioning "why should I want to talk to him, he didn't want me".


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Ever-Man said:


> Probably true, and yes I would stay since I value her so highly. Let's face it, totally equal marriages are rare, usually one spouse is a better "catch" objectively than another. We are equally attractive, but I am a BETA male, and I do not make as much money as she does. And all she can ever talk about is how important money is to her.
> 
> She married me because her number 1 choice, the millionaire, didn't want to marry her. I suspect she is still seeing him. She told me he called her once and wanted to meet, and then when I brought this up as evidence of my concerns, she denied he ever called her.
> 
> They always talk on her b-day, but she didn't want to talk to him on her most recent b-day,(post accusation of my suspicians) with her mentioning "why should I want to talk to him, he didn't want me".



OUCH! You are willing to be Plan B all your life? 

Please read the NMMG book and Married Man Sex Life Primer posted in the above threads.


----------



## Ever-Man

Jasel said:


> That mentality is a problem. Women do not respect men who do not stand up for themselves. And they DEFINITELY do not respect men who they screw over who don't stand up for themselves.
> 
> Not sure how much you've read through this section but I suggest you spend a few days in your spare time reading through some of the stories here.
> 
> The men who don't lay down any consequences for their WS or start talking reconciliation, marriage counseling, "working on the marriage", tell their wife how much they love them, etc as soon as the cheating is discovered? Those men are almost always cheated on again or their wives leave them for someone else.
> 
> The men who immediately lay down consequences? File (I'm just saying FILE you don't have to go through with it) for divorce, limit contact, get pissed, kick the spouse out, etc. These men (and even then it's rare) more often than the former get their wives back or at least seem to move on more effectively when they don't.
> 
> You have your wife on a pedestal which is higher than yourself. As long as you treat her that way and youself that way she's always going to have the upper hand in this situation. Over you and over the marriage.
> 
> I hate the phrase "man up" but now is the time for you to do that.
> 
> You should read The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> and http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


There you go, read my last post. It is unfortunate that men who are anything less than Alpha Vikings, who desire to be in relationships and have a woman and family in their lives are not valued. 

So much for feminism. I blame my feminist mother who hated my Alpha Male father and turned me into the "sensitive", "considerate" man.


----------



## Ever-Man

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> OUCH! You are willing to be Plan B all your life?
> 
> Please read the NMMG book and Married Man Sex Life Primer posted in the above threads.


Well, look at it this way, I am always marrying above my station.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> Well, look at it this way, I am always marrying above my station.


No, you are always in a constant state of angst.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

You are marrying people who you have to sacrifice yourself to have a chance to be with.

Hell yeah, you are right feminism had this effect on men. But right now, you are an adult, not a child. Read the damn books. Get some IC.


----------



## Jasel

Ever-Man said:


> There you go, read my last post. It is unfortunate that men who are anything less than Alpha Vikings, who desire to be in relationships and have a woman and family in their lives are not valued.
> 
> So much for feminism. I blame my feminist mother who hated my Alpha Male father and turned me into the "sensitive", "considerate" man.


You don't have to be an "Alpha Viking" but you do need to find somewhat of a balance between alpha/beta. And it doesn't have to be 50/50 either. Hell I consider myself a Beta male and take no shame in it, but I'm not going to put an individual above myself at the cost of my own self-respect and self-esteem.

What women say they want and what they really want are two very different things. If you want to do well with women, listen to men who do well with women (relationshipwise anyway, not the ones who just get laid but can't hold onto a healthy relationship to save their lives). Taking advice from women on women is always a recipe for disaster unless it's your own wife or significant other expressing her needs to you.


----------



## staystrong

If she's a cheater then she's not a better catch.

If you're not willing to stand up more for yourself then you're not the better catch, either.


----------



## Jasel

You don't have to be an Alpha male to stand up for yourself and deserve a healthy relationship.

You also need to realize your wife isn't the catch you seem to keep telling yourself she is.


----------



## alte Dame

You asked early on if anyone thought her agreeing to a polygraph actually indicated guilt & I will say that that was my first reaction. 

I suspect she was disarming you. If she appears open to a test like that then your suspicions can be cut off at the pass; you will be relieved and stop asking questions.

You have many strikes against you here, in my opinion. As far as red flags for cheating, there are many, not least of which the whole sexy lingerie thing. Then there are your unorthodox living arrangements for a married couple; statistically, married people who live apart a large percentage of the time divorce at a very high rate. And then the whole 'she wanted to marry her millionaire' thing. Lots of strikes.

I would call her bluff on the poly. They are, as you note, not reliable enough to be used in court, but the prospect of one can be very effective at 'coaxing' the truth out of someone.


----------



## staystrong

Jasel said:


> *What women say they want and what they really want are two very different things*. If you want to do well with women, listen to men who do well with women (relationshipwise anyway, not the ones who just get laid but can't hold onto a healthy relationship to save their lives). Taking advice from women on women is always a recipe for disaster unless it's your own wife or significant other expressing her needs to you.


In most cases, for me this has proven to be so very, very true. 

OP, no one is saying lose your sensitive side. Look, it's clear you love your wife and want to keep this marriage going even if you find out there's an affair Just don't get walked on in this process going forward. There's a popular saying here: "You must be prepared to lose the marriage in order have a chance in saving it". Bend it to test its strength without fearing you will break it. 

You are setting yourself up for terrible heartache by pre-forgiving her. You don't even know how remorseful or remorseless she will be. Please be careful with this mentality. I know you think it's loving (and it is) but it's not the right approach. Be as cunning as a serpent and as innocent as a dove. That's real love for her if she's involved an affair.


----------



## Ever-Man

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> You are marrying people who you have to sacrifice yourself to have a chance to be with.
> 
> Hell yeah, you are right feminism had this effect on men. But right now, you are an adult, not a child. Read the damn books. Get some IC.


Well, I somewhat jest, I know that having the respect of your wife is important, however I know I am not an Alpha male, we can't all be, but I also know woman of all kinds cheat. Alpha Male Governor Cuomo's wife cheated on him with a tennis playing "dandy", so it is not always so simple.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

In order to have a better insight of what you are dealing with: 

READ BOTH OF THOSE BOOKS!

Seriously your thread is one giant red flag billowing in a torrendous wind.


----------



## CH

Ever-Man said:


> If I confirmed the wife were cheating my decision to remain in the marriage would be for entirely selfish reasons. I would not walk out in a huff, I would forgive her to her face, but that does not mean I turn soft: I would bide my time, get what I could out of the relationship and leave when the timing suited me, if it ever did.


Unless you got her to sign a pre-nup, in this situation she would probably have the last laugh on you.

Unless she has more $$ than you, then by all means, use her to the max if that's what you need to get back at her.


----------



## Ever-Man

alte Dame said:


> You asked early on if anyone thought her agreeing to a polygraph actually indicated guilt & I will say that that was my first reaction.
> 
> I suspect she was disarming you. If she appears open to a test like that then your suspicions can be cut off at the pass; you will be relieved and stop asking questions.
> 
> You have many strikes against you here, in my opinion. As far as red flags for cheating, there are many, not least of which the whole sexy lingerie thing. Then there are your unorthodox living arrangements for a married couple; statistically, married people who live apart a large percentage of the time divorce at a very high rate. And then the whole 'she wanted to marry her millionaire' thing. Lots of strikes.
> 
> I would call her bluff on the poly. They are, as you note, not reliable enough to be used in court, but the prospect of one can be very effective at 'coaxing' the truth out of someone.


Thanks, this was my thought about my wife offering to take the poly: to end the suspciains and discussions. Let's face it, she prefers I never bring it up again, I could sense that. Since she offered to take the poly a week after my confrontation, says "Honey, I didn't cheat on you and I will take a poly if you need me to". 

My first reaction: your guilty.


----------



## Ever-Man

CH said:


> Unless you got her to sign a pre-nup, in this situation she would probably have the last laugh on you.
> 
> Unless she has more $$ than you, then by all means, use her to the max if that's what you need to get back at her.


yes, she has more money, makes more money, and my health insurance is thru her. 

Of course, I love her and want to be with her.


----------



## Ever-Man

staystrong said:


> Eh? :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> Two VERY important things you need to consider:
> 
> 1. You are already rugsweeping an affair that hasn't even happened. NO RUGSWEEPING! It never works. Ever. Either it enables an affair to continue or it eats you from the inside over years and years.
> 
> 2. You've forgiven her in advance? Trust me, you are kidding yourself. Let's assume she is having an affair. You don't know the emotional depth or physical dirtiness of it. I think you are better off preparing yourself for trauma, not forgiveness. I hope you are least thinking about what your conditions would be for taking her back.


I read about this in other threads and agree, but also believe that in these matters one has to take a "long term" view in where they want to end up, and how they want to get there. By immediately forgiving her, that puts HER in a much harder place to be. 
I have been thru this before and understand that WS are suffering in a state of limbo. Make them decide to leave, let them take responsibility for their actions, not me.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Ever-Man said:


> There you go, read my last post. It is unfortunate that men who are anything less than Alpha Vikings, who desire to be in relationships and have a woman and family in their lives are not valued.
> 
> So much for feminism. I blame my feminist mother who hated my Alpha Male father and turned me into the "sensitive", "considerate" man.


To be fair, MMSL is about bringing a balance of alpha and beta traits, sometimes you need more alpha, sometimes you need more beta. 
There is a lot of good information in it, give it a read before dismissing it.


----------



## daboss

Seriously man you need to grow a set of balls! Never settle to be second best


----------



## staystrong

Ever-Man said:


> I read about this in other threads and agree, but also believe that in these matters one has to take a "long term" view in where they want to end up, and how they want to get there. By walking out on her in a huff, I am showing my hand already, and I am on the defensive, reacting to her. By immediately forgiving her, that puts HER in a much harder place to be.
> I have been thru this before and understand that WS are suffering in a state of limbo. Make them decide to leave, let them take responsibility for their actions, not me.
> 
> While I love my wife, perhaps you misunderstand the strategy behind my forgiveness.
> 
> Anyone who cheats on me is not going to have an easy-time afterward, believe me.


Wow, okay... 

It's a good thing we're going through this before you find out.

I said the same thing about the "long-term" view. I was so wrong. 

First, no one is suggesting you walk out in a huff. Not sure where you got that from. If you discover she's cheating, you need to stand strong like an oak and tell her you won't tolerate it or you're out of the marriage. Tell her you want to improve the marriage but you won't accept a third person in it. You're assuming she'll cut contact off forever. That rarely happens. You'll have to make sure she becomes 100% transparent. 

Second, immediately forgiving her simply tells her that she can get away with it. You think forgiving her from the start is a strong and noble thing. No, it will make you seem like a pushover, not a great loving guy. You can't nice your way out of an affair. 

The weird thing in your relationship is that it would be so easy for her to separate from you. Just walk away and be with OM. She already has her own place. She has her own income (more than yours, you said). You need to be very careful here - you have to be more appealing than the OM. I think you should read MMSL.


----------



## Ever-Man

staystrong said:


> Wow, okay...
> 
> It's a good thing we're going through this before you find out.
> 
> I said the same thing about the "long-term" view. I was so wrong.
> 
> First, no one is suggesting you walk out in a huff. Not sure where you got that from. If you discover she's cheating, you need to stand strong like an oak and tell her you won't tolerate it or you're out of the marriage. Tell her you want to improve the marriage but you won't accept a third person in it. You're assuming she'll cut contact off forever. That rarely happens. You'll have to make sure she becomes 100% transparent.
> 
> Second, immediately forgiving her simply tells her that she can get away with it. You think forgiving her from the start is a strong and noble thing. No, it will make you seem like a pushover, not a great loving guy. You can't nice your way out of an affair.
> 
> The weird thing in your relationship is that it would be so easy for her to separate from you. Just walk away and be with OM. She already has her own place. She has her own income (more than yours, you said). You need to be very careful here - you have to be more appealing than the OM. I think you should read MMSL.


Definitely interested in the MMSL, I believe I would understand much of what is in that book, though execution is always the trick. 

Yes, I see what you are saying about forgiveness, it can make one seem like a patsy push-over, but, not to get stuck on this detail, any forgiveness wouldn't come out so desperate and needy. I have quite a temper and can be extremely assertive, and I would not tolerate an ONGOING affair at all. What I believe is that she perhaps had one, though as I mentioned I am not sure, my evidence is all circumstantial and "gut feeling". it is just as likely she did not have an affair and I am wasting a lot of anguish on this issue. Just not sure. 

I had been thru this before, I was married to my "soul mate" for 20 years and found out she would have left me for any number of affair partners she had, and when one did agree to marry her, she left. My anguish was intense, and the damage permanent, the hardening of my vulnerabilities meant that I really cannot trust anyone completely anymore.


----------



## Will_Kane

Ever-Man said:


> Probably true, and yes I would stay since I value her so highly. Let's face it, totally equal marriages are rare, usually one spouse is a better "catch" objectively than another. We are equally attractive, but I am a BETA male, and I do not make as much money as she does. And all she can ever talk about is how important money is to her.
> 
> She married me because her number 1 choice, the millionaire, didn't want to marry her. I suspect she is still seeing him. She told me he called her once and wanted to meet, and then when I brought this up as evidence of my concerns, she denied he ever called her.
> 
> They always talk on her b-day, but she didn't want to talk to him on her most recent b-day,(post accusation of my suspicians) with her mentioning "why should I want to talk to him, he didn't want me".


I know some of these women. Love money, hate kids.

If you made more money than her, it would be just fine to combine your finances; since she makes more than you, no way.

You are bringing up a lot of cruel comments. Better make more money if you want to keep me? REALLY?

Please tell me I'm wrong. These women shouldn't be married.

What kind of woman wants to live apart from her husband? What do you provide for her, what is she doing with you? Are you eye candy, you dress up well, you look good as a couple, she can take you to social/business functions and you know how to act? And the safe sex, can get it regular and doesn't have to worry about crazies and diseases? Won't live in the 'burbs because it's not cool, doesn't look good, all her friends and associates live in the city? 

Do you think she married you for appearances? Sure, she likes you, gets along with you, that's all part of it. But LOVE? I don't think so, not from what you describe. I'm sorry, but when you love someone, you MAKE AN EFFORT. Especially with their kids. What's so horrible about yours that she doesn't feel "warm" to them?

If she's the type I think she is, then yeah, if millionaire guy ever comes back and shows some serious interest, she's gone. She may be keeping in touch, letting him know she's still available. She's beautiful, but millionaire guys usually like 'em young? Is she getting a little too old to be attracting these guys?

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand what you're doing with her. What do you get from her? Separate finances, doesn't feel "warm" about your kids, live apart - it doesn't seem like much of a marriage, more like an "arrangement"? And, honestly, I don't know any women who would want this type of arrangement permanently.

What if you took her up on her offer to move in with her? Would she really want this?

Please forgive me if I got this wrong.


----------



## curlysue321

That is not much to go on. I would give her the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## bandit.45

Ever-Man said:


> If I confirmed the wife were cheating my decision to remain in the marriage would be for entirely selfish reasons. I would not walk out in a huff, I would forgive her to her face, but that does not mean I turn soft: I would bide my time, get what I could out of the relationship and leave when the timing suited me, if it ever did.
> 
> I know too many people who respond rashly, REACTING,
> and end up in a bad place. I believe in a more careful strategy, that is less reactive and puts the control in my hands.


So your idea is to manipulate the manipulator....

Hmmm. I need to think on this.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

curlysue321 said:


> That is not much to go on. I would give her the benefit of the doubt.


I wouldn't based on what the OP has been typing. The more he writes, the worse it looks. But let me lay out a scenario for you and tell me if you would give your husband the benefit of the doubt if you experienced this:

You are married to a man that owns his own place. You own yours and for whatever reason, the two of you elect to continue living in your separate homes and agree to go to spend time together roughly 3 to 4 days out of every week and live separated the balance of the week. You discover that your husband has a drawer full of fancy silk boxers and a bunch of new threads. However, every time you spend time together you only see him wearing tidy whities, with holes and pee stains, and sweat pants. If your spouse is not wearing the sexy silk boxers for you, then why does he have so many pairs of them?

That doesn't even cover the uncomfortable feelings his wife gets every time he asks her direct questions about infidelity.


----------



## Ever-Man

Will_Kane said:


> I know some of these women. Love money, hate kids.
> 
> If you made more money than her, it would be just fine to combine your finances; since she makes more than you, no way.
> 
> You are bringing up a lot of cruel comments. Better make more money if you want to keep me? REALLY?
> 
> Please tell me I'm wrong. These women shouldn't be married.
> 
> What kind of woman wants to live apart from her husband? What do you provide for her, what is she doing with you? Are you eye candy, you dress up well, you look good as a couple, she can take you to social/business functions and you know how to act? And the safe sex, can get it regular and doesn't have to worry about crazies and diseases? Won't live in the 'burbs because it's not cool, doesn't look good, all her friends and associates live in the city?
> 
> Do you think she married you for appearances? Sure, she likes you, gets along with you, that's all part of it. But LOVE? I don't think so, not from what you describe. I'm sorry, but when you love someone, you MAKE AN EFFORT. Especially with their kids. What's so horrible about yours that she doesn't feel "warm" to them?
> 
> If she's the type I think she is, then yeah, if millionaire guy ever comes back and shows some serious interest, she's gone. She may be keeping in touch, letting him know she's still available. She's beautiful, but millionaire guys usually like 'em young? Is she getting a little too old to be attracting these guys?
> 
> I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand what you're doing with her. What do you get from her? Separate finances, doesn't feel "warm" about your kids, live apart - it doesn't seem like much of a marriage, more like an "arrangement"? And, honestly, I don't know any women who would want this type of arrangement permanently.
> 
> What if you took her up on her offer to move in with her? Would she really want this?
> 
> Please forgive me if I got this wrong.


Nice insightful analysis, some is true, my wife is in finance, does care about money more than kids, she is quite calculated, but she is not soul-less, more naieve and innocent, rather a bit on the spectrum, perhaps autistic, and definitely obsessive compulsive. I was disappointed that she could't deal with full-time parenting in the burbs, she tried, we found a compromise, and we all adjusted. Having sole parenting time actually turned out better for my kids, they had my undivided attention,without a new step-parent as part of the dynamic. This worked for everyone, and my kids really like their step-mom. Anyone who is in a blended family with kids should appreciate this.

Understand, living apart a few nights a week, and separate finances, is by mutual decision, this works for both of us, this is not the largest issue for us, or at least for me, this is our compromise. 

But the unanimus opinion in this thread that this is a big issue gives me pause, perhaps a blind spot.


----------



## Ever-Man

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I wouldn't based on what the OP has been typing. The more he writes, the worse it looks. But let me lay out a scenario for you and tell me if you would give your husband the benefit of the doubt if you experienced this:
> 
> You are married to a man that owns his own place. You own yours and for whatever reason, the two of you elect to continue living in your separate homes and agree to go to spend time together roughly 3 to 4 days out of every week and live separated the balance of the week. You discover that your husband has a drawer full of fancy silk boxers and a bunch of new threads. However, every time you spend time together you only see him wearing tidy whities, with holes and pee stains, and sweat pants. If your spouse is not wearing the sexy silk boxers for you, then why does he have so many pairs of them?
> 
> That doesn't even cover the uncomfortable feelings his wife gets every time he asks her direct questions about infidelity.


Your feeding the obsession, but could it all be explained away, my wife totally innocent, and me a raving madman who risks ruining his marriage with his speculations? 

Knowing for real is the only answer, but that is unlikely.


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## Ever-Man

curlysue321 said:


> That is not much to go on. I would give her the benefit of the doubt.


Thanks, this is what my sister says, that my wife is not the type to cheat.


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## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks, this is what my sister says, that my wife is not the type to cheat.


There is no type. Every single person is capable of cheating. This has been proven time and time again. I understand that this is probably overwhelming but please try not to wear blinders. Do not be naive even though every fiber of your being is telling you to shut your eyes and make it go away. If you value your iwfe and your marriage please keep this in mind. This may be the one wakeup call you get in order to set things right. Avoiding haste is wise so long as it doesn't paralyze you into inaction.


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> There is no type. Every single person is capable of cheating. This has been proven time and time again. I understand that this is probably overwhelming but please try not to wear blinders. Do not be naive even though every fiber of your being is telling you to shut your eyes and make it go away. If you value your iwfe and your marriage please keep this in mind. This may be the one wakeup call you get in order to set things right. Avoiding haste is wise so long as it doesn't paralyze you into inaction.


You think there is enough evidence to believe something is up?


----------



## alte Dame

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks, this is what my sister says, that my wife is not the type to cheat.


There are definitely people out there who appear to be the type not to cheat. I'm one of them, for example. I would have to be in the most extreme of circumstances to even contemplate it.

But, you should know that thread after thread contains the sentiment, 'I can't believe it. I thought he/she would never cheat.'

Your W shows many typical signs of a cheating spouse trying to hide it. You can decide that she is not & you are indeed crazy, but you now know that many people who have read many of these stories think you are not crazy.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Ever-Man said:


> You think there is enough evidence to believe something is up?


No one knows, but your gut and your wife. Yes, I see enough because your "lack of evidence" appears more conclusive than mine. My gut and something she said bothered me. I checked her phone and BOOM!

If you look online, trusting your gut is listed on dang near every "signs of infidelity" checklist!


> Thanks, this is what my sister says, that my wife is not the type to cheat.


My parents said the same thing and look at me, 5 months outside of catching my wife in an emotional affair. Oh and I trusted my wife IMPLICITLY and she was very busy. My biggest hurdle, in triggering, is thinking that it wasn't the family or me that stopped a PA, it was that she was working too much to meet him.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> You think there is enough evidence to believe something is up?


I believe that there is enough evidence to know that something is very very wrong. Whether it has already lead to cheating is not yet known although I would say its probably at least 50/50. You claim this living apart is not only acceptable but beneficial. I not only doubt that I maintain that your marriage is dying and that is the root cause. The fact that you do not see it is frankly more worrisome than your wife's evasive and suspicious behavior.


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## Shaggy

You better hope she isn't cheating because with you approach to it, forgiveness, rug sweeping, thinking your too far beneath her to speak up etc, if she did cheat she will find a man who is has enough self respect to demand to be her partner.

The way you write about yourself is incredibly passive, meek, and powerless. You've accepted her being in charge because you are fearful of her rejecting you and dumping you. You have handed her everything and asked for nothing.


----------



## chillymorn

I see a train a comming and its going to be a terrible wreck.


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## happyman64

Ever-Man said:


> Well, I somewhat jest, I know that having the respect of your wife is important, however I know I am not an Alpha male, we can't all be, but I also know woman of all kinds cheat. Alpha Male Governor Cuomo's wife cheated on him with a tennis playing "dandy", so it is not always so simple.


That is because Gov. Cuomo's head is so big there was no room in his bed for his wife.


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## happyman64

EverMan

Have you ever just showed up at her place unannounced on a night or two when you were not expected because you missed her?

Or is your schedule so firm that she knows where you will be every minute of the day.

Because for your own trust issues you should mix your schedule up. And for the marriage you should show her some spontaneity.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> Your feeding the obsession, but could it all be explained away, my wife totally innocent, and me a raving madman who risks ruining his marriage with his speculations?
> 
> Knowing for real is the only answer, but that is unlikely.


No, I'm looking at what you posted objectively. Obviously none of us could possibly answer the question asked in the title of this thread. However, looking at the evidence you already know combined with how your wife has reacted to your questions and it's clear that the suspicion of her cheating on you is a reasonable one to have at this time. 

Your biggest issue with this marriage is living apart from each other. IMHO, you are married in name only, and I'll bet that your wife feels like she is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or whatever priority in your life. It looks like the needs of your kids are ahead of your wife's needs. She pretty much wished for you to move into her place per what you wrote in one of your responses but you choose not to. I'm sure your wife felt hurt by that - even if she asked you in passing.


----------



## Samus

Ever,

You started this new marriage without setting any boundaries. Didn't you learn anything from your first marriage? You need to be more alert and more aware of your marriage. Living apart does not give you this opportunity and only sets your marriage up for failure. 

I really hope you take our advice to heart, because you can’t do this on your own. Since you already had a failed marriage, there is something truly wrong about how you are approaching decisions and marital responsibility. It is not only your Wive’s fault, of course the cheating is by choice and you’re not to blame, but you can be blamed for being negligent as you are so portraying. 

This in itself can push a spouse away. You really need to change your ways if you want to have a successful and less paranoid life. You are the core of most of your problems based on what you have typed here. 

Being passive and negligent will never produce you a successful marriage.


----------



## Ever-Man

Well, everyone is all over the "not living together" which is only for a couple weekdays a month when I have my kids for overnights at my house. It was HER CHOICE to not come to my house to spend the time together; I do not have a chjoice AS PER THE LAW I have to have my kids for overnights on said days, the child support is based on it, further I need to maintain state residency for financial reasons. We both new this going into the marriage, her not coming to my home is HER CHOICE, and it cannot be changed without a court order. 

After reading everyone's comments, clearly it comes down to this for nearly everyone, and even in my life folks hear this and have this reaction, yet for her and I, this is our schedule. SHe works late hours and on weeknights the evening would be a late dinner and shower, 1/2 hr of TV and bed, not missing much. However, I do agree with you all that this is a strain, it iis not ideal, and she has brought it up as an issue. 

This is a blended family issue, all divorced couples with kids know this issue, HARD. Kids cannot be put SECOND, they are first, and frankly, I would give up the marriage for the kids. My kids are mine forever, the wife, she can leave easily, there are few ties. Yet we stay together, she says she loves me, she seems concerned that I suspect her fof cheating, and she is making more of an effort. 

Honestly, one reason I would forgive her cheating is because of our difficult situation, and knowing I have to put my kids first in my life, this is hard for my wife, but this is reality. Kids are helpless, she is an adult, they need to be raised and loved, she could have been a part of this, but decided to phase herself out. 

WHen the x left me, the kids were 3 and 5, it has been long and hard, not much fun, frankly, living this double life, and as Will Kane mentioned, what is in it for either of us? 

Well, we seem to love eachother and want to be together, if she did have an affair, or saw the old boyfriend, if this helped "clarify" her feelings, or consider her options, she seems to want to stay with me. 

This is not like a arranged marriage, as Will Kane speculated, we are together ONLY BECAUSE of companionship, we do not share funds, we are both financially independent, we both prefer it this way (for legal reasons as well). 

I hope people in affairs are reading this and seeing how difficult life is in a blended family. I know that the KIDS are often the reason it all goes south, and when one partner has NO KIDS, they do not understand. My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident. That is how hard this is; yet I stay. Maybe I should be the one leaving.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> Well, everyone is all over the "not living together" which is only for a couple weekdays a month when I have my kids for overnights at my house. It was HER CHOICE to not come to my house to spend the time together; I do not have a chjoice AS PER THE LAW I have to have my kids for overnights on said days, the child support is based on it, further I need to maintain state residency for financial reasons. We both new this going into the marriage, her not coming to my home is HER CHOICE, and it cannot be changed without a court order.
> 
> After reading everyone's comments, clearly it comes down to this for nearly everyone, and even in my life folks hear this and have this reaction, yet for her and I, this is our schedule. SHe works late hours and on weeknights the evening would be a late dinner and shower, 1/2 hr of TV and bed, not missing much. However, I do agree with you all that this is a strain, it iis not ideal, and she has brought it up as an issue.
> 
> This is a blended family issue, all divorced couples with kids know this issue, HARD. *Kids cannot be put SECOND, they are first, and frankly, I would give up the marriage for the kids.* My kids are mine forever, the wife, she can leave easily, there are few ties. Yet we stay together, she says she loves me, she seems concerned that I suspect her fof cheating, and she is making more of an effort.
> 
> Honestly, one reason I would forgive her cheating is because of our difficult situation, and knowing *I have to put my kids first in my life, this is hard for my wife, but this is reality. * Kids are helpless, she is an adult, they need to be raised and loved, *she could have been a part of this, but decided to phase herself out. *
> 
> WHen the x left me, the kids were 3 and 5, it has been long and hard, not much fun, frankly, living this double life, and as Will Kane mentioned, what is in it for either of us?
> 
> Well, we seem to love eachother and want to be together, if she did have an affair, or saw the old boyfriend, if this helped "clarify" her feelings, or consider her options, she seems to want to stay with me.
> 
> This is not like a arranged marriage, as Will Kane speculated, *we are together ONLY BECAUSE of companionship, we do not share funds, we are both financially independent, we both prefer it this way (for legal reasons as well).*
> 
> I hope people in affairs are reading this and seeing how difficult life is in a blended family. I know that the KIDS are often the reason it all goes south, and when one partner has NO KIDS, they do not understand. *My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident.* That is how hard this is; yet I stay. Maybe I should be the one leaving.


You weren't ready to get married. She was not prepared to deal with your kids. Neither of you ever fully committed to this marriage. IMHO, it wasn't even built on love - just the comfort of two friends with benefits spending time together. 

If neither of you two are willing to move in together regardless of how inconvenient it may be, then this marriage is dead. Why bother living a farce? At this point, why do you even care if she was cheating. Neither of you two ever treated each other like husband and wife.


----------



## Jasel

Ever-Man said:


> Well, everyone is all over the "not living together" which is only for a couple weekdays a month when I have my kids for overnights at my house. It was HER CHOICE to not come to my house to spend the time together; I do not have a chjoice AS PER THE LAW I have to have my kids for overnights on said days, the child support is based on it, further I need to maintain state residency for financial reasons. We both new this going into the marriage, her not coming to my home is HER CHOICE, and it cannot be changed without a court order.
> 
> After reading everyone's comments, clearly it comes down to this for nearly everyone, and even in my life folks hear this and have this reaction, yet for her and I, this is our schedule. SHe works late hours and on weeknights the evening would be a late dinner and shower, 1/2 hr of TV and bed, not missing much. However, I do agree with you all that this is a strain, it iis not ideal, and she has brought it up as an issue.
> 
> This is a blended family issue, all divorced couples with kids know this issue, HARD. Kids cannot be put SECOND, they are first, and frankly, I would give up the marriage for the kids. My kids are mine forever, the wife, she can leave easily, there are few ties. Yet we stay together, she says she loves me, she seems concerned that I suspect her fof cheating, and she is making more of an effort.
> 
> Honestly, one reason I would forgive her cheating is because of our difficult situation, and knowing I have to put my kids first in my life, this is hard for my wife, but this is reality. Kids are helpless, she is an adult, they need to be raised and loved, she could have been a part of this, but decided to phase herself out.
> 
> WHen the x left me, the kids were 3 and 5, it has been long and hard, not much fun, frankly, living this double life, and as Will Kane mentioned, what is in it for either of us?
> 
> Well, we seem to love eachother and want to be together, if she did have an affair, or saw the old boyfriend, if this helped "clarify" her feelings, or consider her options, she seems to want to stay with me.
> 
> This is not like a arranged marriage, as Will Kane speculated, we are together ONLY BECAUSE of companionship, we do not share funds, we are both financially independent, we both prefer it this way (for legal reasons as well).
> 
> I hope people in affairs are reading this and seeing how difficult life is in a blended family. I know that the KIDS are often the reason it all goes south, and when one partner has NO KIDS, they do not understand. * My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident. That is how hard this is; yet I stay. Maybe I should be the one leaving.*


WHAT DO YOU SEE IN THIS WOMAN??????

This entire thread I haven't seen you list one positive personality trait of hers at all. You don't even sound like you love her for any particular reason, you just love her because you love her.

Because as much as you keep defending her she sounds like a pretty awful person.


----------



## Samus

Are you kidding me dude? I bet there are numerous men on this site that have been divorced, trust me you are not the first to be in this situation.

I am a divorced husband who remarried to a very lovely woman, who is very trustworthy. My first wife and I had a son who my current wife defintely doesn't shower with love (he is 10 now) but she new him since 2 years old. However she would never wish those ill things to my children. She still loves my son and will give him advice if needed. 

If any woman ever wished ill things of my children, I would ****ing kick her out so hard. Wow you are amazing me, you really appreciate a woman like this? Speaking ill of your kids? 

You need to divorce her and keep her around for a booty call and get more of those. You don't need to be married to this woman. 

Why waste time posting here for advice if you are so negligent? Why waste your time with a woman who has no sense of care for your family? Your wife is selfish, self centered, SOB, that is definetly fcvking her rich friend. You are being played like a flute. 

Be honest with yourself, but you don't care either way. You rather be or have sloppy seconds. Digusting!!!!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Ever-Man said:


> My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident. That is how hard this is; yet I stay. Maybe I should be the one leaving.


WTH! I have a blended family and If my wife would have said that BS, please don't post some garbage about it being in the middle of a fight, she would have been out on the spot!

There is honesty and then there is ignorant marriage ending stupidity. No, I don't care if you asked her to be honest, there are a hundred ways to say the same thing without wishing death on your children.

Sorry, that is disgusting.


----------



## matt82

Ever-Man said:


> My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident. That is how hard this is; yet I stay. Maybe I should be the one leaving.


Maybe?! No, you need to GTFO now. I feel for your kids, but not for you. Since you don't have kids with this creature and since she makes more than you, the financial damage won't be too bad. Let her go have her fun with whomever she wants. Just get her out of your life.


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## Ever-Man

Samus said:


> Ever,
> 
> I think your fcvking with us now, I don't know if your being serious about anything you are posting at this point, given the information you recently provided about what this woman wished on your children.
> 
> Is this for real, or are you just fcvking with us, because nobody could be this god damn naive, negligent, and stupid.


Thanks everyone for all the love. While my eyes are being opened, a lot of this is OLD NEWS, but I am including it to illustrate why my parenting my kids is not a shared experience with the wife. This is divorce. 

My life has been plagued by divorce. I have a step-mom, and I have had several step-dads. My life has been one of instability, parental neglect, being on my own, being poor. The simple reality: within a blended family each persons personal "best interests" are often at odds, witness "MacBeth". The allocation of "resources" are stretched and strained, including parental love. These dynamics are built into the structure, read "Wuthering Heights", these are timeless issues. If any spouse in a blended family is completely honest with themselves, they would prefer to not raise someone elses kids. This is always a "sacrifice" except in the rarest cases. 

WHile I do not know what oasis of utopia you all reside in, none of my issues should be some kind of shocking surprise to anyone who has resided in the realm of "divorce", as child, parent, or both. I have seen my biological mother pull a knife on my Dad and threaten to kill him, I have seen my Dad punch my mother in the face as she was kneeling down crying... are not these shocking, they happen all the time to people. My Dad was a serial cheater, these scenes are the result.

My wife says a lot of nasty things, frankly, it comes out in a moment of anger, my reaction used to be to simply walk-out the door, now I have grown accustomed to this, perhaps I should not, but given my background, my goal has always been STABILITY, that is all I have ever wanted out of life, even against my own personal best interests. I was married for 20 years to the first wife, through good and bad. I want to stay married to my current wife, that is why I am here, I appreciate the advice, as this thread evolves I can see the issues, I can see how I am a "doormat", taking abuse in order to cling to something stable, to find love. 

I suppose that is how I am "ruined" by my divorce upbringing: I always had to compromise as a child as I had no choice, and I am continuing that pattern of being the "doormat", the compromiser. I can see how I prefer to stay in a bad relationship rather than face "the abyss", and I can see how I am giving this advice to others who are struck by infidelity. 

While I cannot change the fear I feel that makes me accept abuse, I can find an effective way to be more assertive and maintain my dignity and self-respect, this I can sense is GOAL ONE, for me, thanks for all your help.


----------



## staystrong

Ever-Man said:


> My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident. That is how hard this is; yet I stay. Maybe I should be the one leaving.


Maybe I should be the one who is leaving... this thread.

You are wasting our time. 

You would forgive this woman if she's cheating? :crazy:


----------



## staystrong

Ever-Man said:


> While I cannot change the fear I feel that makes me accept abuse, I can find an effective way to be more assertive and maintain my dignity and self-respect, this I can sense is GOAL ONE, for me, thanks for all your help.


Good. What's next then for you?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> I suppose that is how I am "ruined" by my divorce upbringing: I always had to compromise as a child as I had no choice, and I am continuing that pattern of being the "doormat", the compromiser. I can see how I prefer to stay in a bad relationship rather than face "the abyss", and I can see how I am giving this advice to others who are struck by infidelity.
> 
> While I cannot change the fear I feel that makes me accept abuse, I can find an effective way to be more assertive and maintain my dignity and self-respect, this I can sense is GOAL ONE, for me, thanks for all your help.


Then you need to become strong for the sake of your children. Children are not stupid, and they see what you are going through. Even when you think that you are shielding them from a bad situation, they know. As a child growing up in a crappy situation like you did, did your mom ever try to shield you from the crap she was going through? I bet she tried and you found out a lot of cruel things despite her best efforts.

You need to break the cycle. If you cannot value yourself and have self respect, how will your children find it if you cannot show them how?


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## phillybeffandswiss

The only one that is living in a "oasis utopia," is the guy that berates us for not accepting his wife's actions or his excuses for her actions.

Tough love is showing a person their flaws and making them look at themselves in a different light.


----------



## Ever-Man

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The only one that is living in a "oasis utopia," is the guy that berates us for not accepting his wife's actions or his excuses for her actions.
> 
> Tough love is showing a person their flaws and making them look at themselves in a different light.


I truly appreciate everyone's honest reactions to my situation, it has pointed me in a direction I had not expected to go. I came here to simply ascertain if there was enough evidence to suspect my wife of cheating, and the responses have shown me how deeply flawed the relationship itself has become, and my "blind spots" or denial of certain issues that I have accepted, that perhaps are the essence of the problem. 

Perhaps I need stability so badly because, due to my lack of self-respect, emanating from my feelings of helplessness and abandonment issues, I am not providing enough stability for MYSELF, and strive to find it in relationships with other people. This causes me to cling to relationships and accept abuse, which then makes my wife loose respect for me and therefore treat me badly and, due to my anxiety about facing "the abyss", I don't assert myself (or I assert myself "passively") thus causing more marital instability.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> I truly appreciate everyone's honest reactions to my situation, it has pointed me in a direction I had not expected to go. I came here to simply ascertain if there was enough evidence to suspect my wife of cheating, and the responses have shown me how deeply flawed the relationship itself has become, and my "blind spots" or denial of certain issues that I have accepted, that perhaps are the essence of the problem.
> 
> Perhaps I need stability so badly because, due to my lack of self-respect, emanating from my feelings of helplessness and abandonment issues, I am not providing enough stability for MYSELF, and strive to find it in relationships with other people. This causes me to cling to relationships and accept abuse, which then makes my wife loose respect for me and therefore treat me badly and, due to my anxiety about facing "the abyss", I don't assert myself (or I assert myself "passively") thus causing more marital instability.


It's good to hear that you are reassessing your situation. I'd recommend that you find a good psychologist to help you through the pain you experienced as a child and as a parent. Also, I'd encourage you to keep posting on here and participate in other threads.

I think you will realize soon - if not already - that you are no good to your children or a future spouse if you cannot first learn to value yourself and have a healthy measure of self respect and dignity. No one else will value you as a person if you don't value yourself. Good luck finding what you need to become whole.


----------



## Ever-Man

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's good to hear that you are reassessing your situation. I'd recommend that you find a good psychologist to help you through the pain you experienced as a child and as a parent. Also, I'd encourage you to keep posting on here and participate in other threads.
> 
> I think you will realize soon - if not already - that you are no good to your children or a future spouse if you cannot first learn to value yourself and have a healthy measure of self respect and dignity. No one else will value you as a person if you don't value yourself. Good luck finding what you need to become whole.


I have been through years of therapy, some things just ARE, and have to be managed. I do not believe too much in a "perfect final state" as I have never seen such a thing. All I see are flawed people struggling with issues that come and go, never achieving "wholeness", though sometimes happiness within the ambiguity.


----------



## alte Dame

Ever-Man said:


> I have been through years of therapy, some things just ARE, and have to be managed. I do not believe too much in a "perfect final state" as I have never seen such a thing. All I see are flawed people struggling with issues that come and go, never achieving "wholeness", though sometimes happiness within the ambiguity.


So maybe the 'happiness within the ambiguity' is, in fact, the wholeness. You talk of Macbeth and Heathcliff re the timelessness of the issues. There are also figures like Atticus Finch.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> I have been through years of therapy, some things just ARE, and have to be managed. I do not believe too much in a "perfect final state" as I have never seen such a thing. All I see are flawed people struggling with issues that come and go, never achieving "wholeness", though sometimes happiness within the ambiguity.


I'm not saying that being whole equates to being in a perfect state since that concept does not exist. The closest people can come to "perfection" is to seek out continuous improvement and to commit to a lifetime of learning. My use of the words to become whole is to come to acceptance of who you are and to learn to be content with the person you are. But it also means to continuously strive to be the person you want to be - even if you never achieve it. No one really achieves all of their desires for themselves.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man,

My wife read your thread. These are her words.

There is no blended family here because there is no family at all. And there is no marriage here to save. What I see is a dysfunctional friendship with benefits and not much benefit to the OP. He cannot be comfortable and secure with anyone else because he is not comfortable with himself. And that discomfort will be transfered to his children if he doesn't find a way to be happy inside himself. They are already adversely affected because they see daddy in a relationship with someone that doesn't like them. So if daddy's woman doesn't like them maybe daddy doesn't really like them or maybe there is something wrong with them. He should divorce his wife and concentrate on being happy alone with himself before he tries to be happy with someone else.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

curlysue321 said:


> That is not much to go on. I would give her the benefit of the doubt.


Really?

My experience is that women buy clothing (read lingerie) for OTHERS to see.

This is the biggest red flag of them all.

And as far as giving her the benefit of the doubt? No way. Trust but verify.


----------



## tom67

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Really?
> 
> My experience is that women buy clothing (read lingerie) for OTHERS to see.
> 
> This is the biggest red flag of them all.
> 
> And as far as giving her the benefit of the doubt? No way. Trust but verify.


Show up at her house on an unscheduled day just pop in. hopefully no surprises though.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Ever-Man said:


> None of this, she is not into modern devices, no FB, no IM, doesn't really text, leaves her phone right there in the open, is not secretive.
> 
> Biggest red flag is the underwear. WHy so much if it is "itchy", why keep buying it, or having it in your drawer if you never wear it with me? I just can't get over this detail.


It's itchy but she wears it to work for hours on end ... but won't wear it long it enough for you to take it off of her. Doesn't pass the sniff test does it?

I agree with some others. It is probable she was thinking about it but hasn't gone through with it. It is possible she has done something but will never admit it. I really think you need to monitor and not take her word for it. Those would be red flags to me too and I haven't experienced what you did in your prior marriage.


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> Ever-Man,
> 
> My wife read your thread. These are her words.
> 
> There is no blended family here because there is no family at all. And there is no marriage here to save. What I see is a dysfunctional friendship with benefits and not much benefit to the OP. He cannot be comfortable and secure with anyone else because he is not comfortable with himself. And that discomfort will be transfered to his children if he doesn't find a way to be happy inside himself. They are already adversely affected because they see daddy in a relationship with someone that doesn't like them. So if daddy's woman doesn't like them maybe daddy doesn't really like them or maybe there is something wrong with them. He should divorce his wife and concentrate on being happy alone with himself before he tries to be happy with someone else.


Thanks for your input, and even involving your wife, you are drawing extreme conclusions without all the information, which admittedly cannot be fully conveyed in forums such as these. 

Your input is illustrative of why these kinds of forums can be very bad places for vulnerable people to go looking for "advice".


----------



## Ever-Man

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> It's itchy but she wears it to work for hours on end ... but won't wear it long it enough for you to take it off of her. Doesn't pass the sniff test does it?
> 
> I agree with some others. It is probable she was thinking about it but hasn't gone through with it. It is possible she has done something but will never admit it. I really think you need to monitor and not take her word for it. Those would be red flags to me too and I haven't experienced what you did in your prior marriage.


Excellent point, she can't wear this for the 20-30 minutes it might be on her at night before we are intimate?


----------



## Ever-Man

tom67 said:


> Show up at her house on an unscheduled day just pop in. hopefully no surprises though.


I have done this, I have also used a VAR and general snooping and have found nothing to confirm my fears.


----------



## Ever-Man

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Really?
> 
> My experience is that women buy clothing (read lingerie) for OTHERS to see.
> 
> This is the biggest red flag of them all.
> 
> And as far as giving her the benefit of the doubt? No way. Trust but verify.


This is the one that bothers me the most too, however, women do buy sexy lingerie for themselves. Some of them in the wife's drawer have the tags still on them, and they are yellowing they have been sitting in the drawer so long. Most look to have not been worn, based on lack of any 'wear". Some she used to wear with me some time ago.


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## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks for your input, and even involving your wife, you are drawing extreme conclusions without all the information, which admittedly cannot be fully conveyed in forums such as these.
> 
> Your input is illustrative of why these kinds of forums can be very bad places for vulnerable people to go looking for "advice".


With all due respect, your said your wife wished your children were dead. I think the term extreme may be misplaced here. But its your life friend. I wish you all the best.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks for your input, and even involving your wife, you are drawing extreme conclusions without all the information, which admittedly cannot be fully conveyed in forums such as these.
> 
> Your input is illustrative of why these kinds of forums can be very bad places for vulnerable people to go looking for "advice".


You are all over the place. It seemed like you were coming to the realization that this set up of yours is not healthy. Now you seem to be doing a 180 on this.


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## Jasel

Ever-Man I know some people are coming off as harsh but it's not because we enjoy it. I've been on this site for 2 months now and it's extremely frustrating how many people (and I've only seen this with men for some reason) come here looking for advice, don't like what they hear or aren't told what they want to hear, leave, then come back weeks or months down the road saying how they wished they had listened to what people here were telling them because what they tried either didn't work or blew up in their face.

Granted no one here can put themselves in your shoes directly and none of us personally know you or your wife, but if what you've said is accurate even if your wife wasn't cheating on you (and I find it hard to believe she either hasn't or hasn't seriously considered it), I'd still say you need to walk away from that marriage.

Your wife doesn't sound like a great person and you sound like you have some serious self-esteem/self-respect issues which would make it hard for many women to want to stick it out in the long run. Women are just not attracted to men who put them up on a pedestal, yet have very little respect for themselves.

Have you at least started looking at any of the suggested reading that's been mentioned in this thread?? And if you aren't still in counseling I think you might want to give it another go.

Once again people aren't saying these things for kicks. They genuinely want to help you.


----------



## Will_Kane

Ever-Man said:


> Excellent point, she can't wear this for the 20-30 minutes it might be on her at night before we are intimate?


I am not going to cite every instance I've spotted in your posts, but you have put up with a lot of stuff from her, a lot of comments, put up with a lot of disrespect - the way she talks to you, about you, about your kids, and the things she does. The comments about money and your kids are particularly out of line. The stuff you posted about what she says, you posted like they were serious comments, not jokes. If so, very hurtful. You don't say whether or not you reply to her when she says these things or just shrug it off.

The "normal" view of marriage, the one every one here is focused on, is that marriage is a sharing of each other's lives. The good and the bad, the ups and the downs. You two have set up house differently, but if you're both happy with it, I will stop judging. But despite the living arrangements, the "shared life" still applies, does it not?

Don't the wedding vows say "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health"?

With a person you've taken those vows with, don't you think you deserve an honest answer about the lingerie? Why don't you just ask her, "if you are not going to wear it for me, and it is uncomfortable, why do you buy it, and why do you wear it to work"? And don't let her "change the subject." Next time she changes the subject, change it back until you get an answer that satisfies you.

If you want her to wear the lingerie for you, why don't you tell her that. Open the drawer and pick one out that you'd like to see her in. Hand it to her and tell her to put it on before you go to bed.

Be more assertive when she puts you down or evades your questions. For example, the first time you had "passion-less" sex with her you should have spoken up right in the middle of it - not wait for however long (did you ever bring this up to her, or did it just take care of itself after you semi-accused her of cheating?). IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY, SPEAK UP RIGHT AWAY, don't let it fester and eat away at you. You may not get what you want, but at least you won't be sitting around and scratching your head about it. And, giving her the benefit of the doubt, she can't fix it if she doesn't know what's wrong.

TRY PUTTING YOURSELF FIRST.

About your suspicions of the affair - you say she doesn't like the mobile phone or technology, so maybe a voice-activated recorder in the house if you absolutely can get away with it without being found out. I would say don't do it at this point, it's too risky and will put a strain on your marriage when it doesn't need one.

Your best bet right now is to focus on being more assertive, putting your needs first once in a while, and keeping an eye out. Let her get comfortable and see if she reverts back to her hold behaviors. I don't know if you posted this or not, but try to check her phone bills to see if there are any calls to a number that are excessive or at odd times, or times you are not around. The landline as well as the cell phone.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks for your input, and even involving your wife, you are drawing extreme conclusions without all the information, which admittedly cannot be fully conveyed in forums such as these.
> 
> Your input is illustrative of why these kinds of forums can be very bad places for vulnerable people to go looking for "advice".


No, they are very bad places for people who only want advice "*they want to hear*!"


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## MrWombat

First, yes she's cheating.
Second, she likes a man who has a pair.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrWombat said:


> First, yes she's cheating.
> Second, she likes a man who has a pair.


I'm still trying to figure out how I'm drawing "EXTREME CONCLUSIONS" when he posted that his wife, of 7 years, who he says "we have a good enough relationship" wished his kids died in an accident!

If that's a good enough relationship, mine is perfect!


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## Count of Monte Cristo

If anyone EVER wishes ill of my kids they would no longer have a place in my life.

For god sake, she wished that your kids were dead! You can't get anymore heartless than this.


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## Ever-Man

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how I'm drawing "EXTREME CONCLUSIONS" when he posted that his wife, of 7 years, who he says "we have a good enough relationship" wished his kids died in an accident!
> 
> If that's a good enough relationship, mine is perfect!


I appreciate everyone's advice, even if I cannot relate to it, however, there is a point where the "advice" is addressing the posters assumptions, as in the case of Bfree, who states "there is no marriage to save" despite my obvious concerns about wanting to save my marriage, and advises me to "divorce my wife so I can concentrate on being alone", contradicting the previous point that the reason my wife and I "have no marriage" is because we do not live together. This makes no sense to me, relative to what I am trying to achieve: a stable marriage. 

Recall I am trying to determine if my wife is/has cheated on me, that is the thread. 

Certainly that entails the "state of the relationship" and I can see how our unorthodox living arrangement is hard to grasp, but focusing solely on that detail is also a bit off the topic, as is focusing on the horrible comment my wife made about my kids, which I assure she would be ashamed and apologize if I brought it up. 
Anyway, I appreciate the insights and it has opened my mind. 

Through the thread you all have helped me see that I primarily need to value myself (perhaps Bfree's suggestion) within the relationship, and NOT BE AFRAID OF IT ENDING, which is the CORE FEAR that holds me back from telling the ***** to "get screwed" when she says such hurtful things. Thank you Will Kane for your post, I see you are a fellow New Yorker and in many ways you nailed the "type" in your previous post, perhaps these kinds of bitter woman who have been ****ed around by "superior" millionaire boyfriend who play a better game (and yes, all she cares about is the money, I know this) are not to be married.

At this point I am less concerned with her "cheating" on me as I am with fixing the imbalance in our relationship and seeing if I can gain any of my self-respect back, for myself, and if this will improve the relationship. In the end, it is the low relationship quality that makes me suspect cheating (and the lingerie). 

Regarding my suspicians of cheating, with valentines day coming up, I do plan on setting up a VAR and seeing what I find.


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## Ever-Man

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how I'm drawing "EXTREME CONCLUSIONS" when he posted that his wife, of 7 years, who he says "we have a good enough relationship" wished his kids died in an accident!
> 
> If that's a good enough relationship, mine is perfect!


Didn't I address that comment to BFREE? Anyway, no offense intended, I value your insights, thank you.


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## Ever-Man

MrWombat said:


> First, yes she's cheating.
> Second, she likes a man who has a pair.


Actually, since you brought it up, I have a huge pair, member of l p s g . o r g 

Check it out, there is a lot to learn.


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## Ever-Man

Jasel said:


> Ever-Man I know some people are coming off as harsh but it's not because we enjoy it. I've been on this site for 2 months now and it's extremely frustrating how many people (and I've only seen this with men for some reason) come here looking for advice, don't like what they hear or aren't told what they want to hear, leave, then come back weeks or months down the road saying how they wished they had listened to what people here were telling them because what they tried either didn't work or blew up in their face.
> 
> Granted no one here can put themselves in your shoes directly and none of us personally know you or your wife, but if what you've said is accurate even if your wife wasn't cheating on you (and I find it hard to believe she either hasn't or hasn't seriously considered it), I'd still say you need to walk away from that marriage.
> 
> Your wife doesn't sound like a great person and you sound like you have some serious self-esteem/self-respect issues which would make it hard for many women to want to stick it out in the long run. Women are just not attracted to men who put them up on a pedestal, yet have very little respect for themselves.
> 
> Have you at least started looking at any of the suggested reading that's been mentioned in this thread?? And if you aren't still in counseling I think you might want to give it another go.
> 
> Once again people aren't saying these things for kicks. They genuinely want to help you.


Harsh and blunt is one thing, but drawing conclusions for which there is not enough information, and then basing your opinions on such conclusions with life-altering advice for vulnerable strangers who are in emotional anguish, and doing so with a tone of authority, and utter certainty is a very dangerous tact to engage on this site. I was that way with a few posts and quickly realized that I am not a professional, and should take a less 'authoritative" voice. We all need to be careful with the advice we give troubled and perhaps impressionable adults who are in the midst of life-altering moments in their lives.


----------



## Fisherman

Ever-Man said:


> Harsh and blunt is one thing, but drawing conclusions for which there is not enough information, and then basing your opinions on such conclusions with life-altering advice for vulnerable strangers who are in emotional anguish, and doing so with a tone of authority, and utter certainty is a very dangerous tact to engage on this site. I was that way with a few posts and quickly realized that I am not a professional, and should take a less 'authoritative" voice. We all need to be careful with the advice we give troubled and perhaps impressionable adults who are in the midst of life-altering moments in their lives.


This is an open forum in which everyone is entitled to give there opinion. There is no claim to this being professional advice, it is pretty clear that it is not. You chose to come here and solicit others opinions and it is your responsibility to filter it to determine what is meaningful for you. Don't give warnings to others because you came out here and don't like what you hear.


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## Ever-Man

Jkw4338 said:


> This is an open forum in which everyone is entitled to give there opinion. There is no claim to this being professional advice, it is pretty clear that it is not. You chose to come here and solicit others opinions and it is your responsibility to filter it to determine what is meaningful for you. Don't give warnings to others because you came out here and don't like what you hear.


To be blunt, you are wrong and you have no idea what you are talking about. 

There are FORUM RULES that are at the top of the thread. You should familiarize yourself with them, if you choose to participate further, so you know what you are doing. Look at forum rule number 8....

"8. Be supportive of others and their desire to have happier, healthier relationships". 

When someone such as myself comes here seeking specific advice on improving my relationship, and a member tells me that I "have no marriage" and should "divorce my wife and concentrate on being happy alone" that is in direct violation of rule number 8. 

I suggest that you read the forum rules and try to earnestly help people. We are not here to play "amateur psychoanalyst" with vulnerable strangers. A site like this is a great place for bullies to spout off to vulnerable people, for kicks, or to engage their masochistic impulses, that is often the kind of person who gravitates to a site like this.


----------



## Fisherman

Ever-Man said:


> To be blunt, you are wrong and you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> There are FORUM RULES that are at the top of the thread. You should familiarize yourself with them, if you choose to participate further, so you know what you are doing. Look at forum rule number 8....
> 
> "8. Be supportive of others and their desire to have happier, healthier relationships".
> 
> When someone such as myself comes here seeking specific advice on improving my relationship, and a member tells me that I "have no marriage" and should "divorce my wife and concentrate on being happy alone" that is in direct violation of rule number 8.
> 
> I suggest that you read the forum rules and try to earnestly help people. We are not here to play "amateur psychoanalyst" with vulnerable strangers. A site like this is a great place for bullies to spout off to vulnerable people, for kicks, or to engage their masochistic impulses, that is often the kind of person who gravitates to a site like this.


. I think you don't understand the rules. It's your choice to be out here. There is also a rule to not say negative things about other posters. You can say what you want, it doesn't bother me but frankly you just don't like others opinions.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Ever-Man said:


> Didn't I address that comment to BFREE?


No. You addressed the entire forum, with a passive insult, by piggy backing it off of your admonishment of Bfree and his wife.

Here is why the advice has become pointed:
Your original post:


Ever-Man said:


> *lots of sexy underwear in her drawer she never wears with me, but I have seen her wear to work
> *I ask "why all the sexy underwear, I never see it, and why do you wear it to work", and she was somewhat speechless, said the underwear was uncomfortable to her, and anyway she didn't have that much sexy underwear, we look thru her drawer and it is actually more than 50% of what is in the drawer. She got a guilty look on her face, a sheepish smile.


After someone gave you "very dangerous tact of life-altering advice for vulnerable strangers who are in emotional anguish."



Ever-Man said:


> This is the one that bothers me the most too, however, women do buy sexy lingerie for themselves. Some of them in the wife's drawer have the tags still on them, and they are yellowing they have been sitting in the drawer so long. Most look to have not been worn, based on lack of any 'wear". Some she used to wear with me some time ago.


That is a complete and utter flip flop!

This is only one example of your rug sweeping; there are many. Also, do yourself a favor and lose the passive aggressive authoritative attitude, people will be more receptive to your "anguish." I understand that you are lashing out at us, but you should put that energy into saving your marriage not admonishing people by using ironic comments.

Good luck, and I hope you are wrong, concerning an affair, about your wife who wants her non-biological blended family children to die in an accident!


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## Ever-Man

Jkw4338 said:


> . I think you don't understand the rules. It's your choice to be out here. There is also a rule to not say negative things about other posters. You can say what you want, it doesn't bother me but frankly you just don't like others opinions.


Yes, this is a better way of putting it, Bfree's advice is just plain bad for me, but I am sure Bfree meant the best by offering it. I am often quick to assume the worst in people, and the worst intentions.


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## staystrong

Can we get back to the original subject?

Ever Man, any updates? What steps have you taken to know if your W is having a an affair?


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## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> Harsh and blunt is one thing, but drawing conclusions for which there is not enough information, and then basing your opinions on such conclusions with life-altering advice for vulnerable strangers who are in emotional anguish, and doing so with a tone of authority, and utter certainty is a very dangerous tact to engage on this site. I was that way with a few posts and quickly realized that I am not a professional, and should take a less 'authoritative" voice. We all need to be careful with the advice we give troubled and perhaps impressionable adults who are in the midst of life-altering moments in their lives.


It's true that people on TAM can draw conclusions about situations without the whole picture, but your title to the thread invites posters to do this. Simply asking the question "Did my wife cheat, or am I crazy???" encouraged everyone to speculate. 

OK. If you want to narrow the scope of the discussion to simply "is she cheating or not", then I suggest you do the following: use VARS in her car or plant them in her bedroom since you are not always over there while she is. Install a keylogger on her computer - if possible - to see if you can catch any passwords to sites that she frequents. Monitor any social media sites that she frequents that you are aware of. Check her cell phone bill - if possible - to see if there is a large amount of data being sent to a specific number or if there are gobs of phone calls to 1 or 2 numbers that do not belong to you. You can even hire a PI to try to tail her for a week or 2 if you can afford that. You can start showing up at her place at unplanned times to try to "catch her in the act". 

If that's all you want, then that's what I'll suggest you try. I'll no longer comment on your living arrangement, although I still believe it's the biggest problem you have and is the single biggest root cause to most of your marital problems. But I digress and apologize for not staying in scope...


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> Yes, this is a better way of putting it, Bfree's advice is just plain bad for me, but I am sure Bfree meant the best by offering it. I am often quick to assume the worst in people, and the worst intentions.


After your negative reaction to my wife's comments we sat down and discussed it in more detail last night. She elaborated on her position but it seems that you would rather move on from that topic. If you'd like to hear her more in depth response I would be more than willing to offer it. Otherwise, follow the advice others have given you and I wish you good luck.


----------



## sinnister

Ever-Man said:


> Well, everyone is all over the "not living together" which is only for a couple weekdays a month when I have my kids for overnights at my house. It was HER CHOICE to not come to my house to spend the time together; I do not have a chjoice AS PER THE LAW I have to have my kids for overnights on said days, the child support is based on it, further I need to maintain state residency for financial reasons. We both new this going into the marriage, her not coming to my home is HER CHOICE, and it cannot be changed without a court order.
> 
> After reading everyone's comments, clearly it comes down to this for nearly everyone, and even in my life folks hear this and have this reaction, yet for her and I, this is our schedule. SHe works late hours and on weeknights the evening would be a late dinner and shower, 1/2 hr of TV and bed, not missing much. However, I do agree with you all that this is a strain, it iis not ideal, and she has brought it up as an issue.
> 
> This is a blended family issue, all divorced couples with kids know this issue, HARD. Kids cannot be put SECOND, they are first, and frankly, I would give up the marriage for the kids. My kids are mine forever, the wife, she can leave easily, there are few ties. Yet we stay together, she says she loves me, she seems concerned that I suspect her fof cheating, and she is making more of an effort.
> 
> Honestly, one reason I would forgive her cheating is because of our difficult situation, and knowing I have to put my kids first in my life, this is hard for my wife, but this is reality. Kids are helpless, she is an adult, they need to be raised and loved, she could have been a part of this, but decided to phase herself out.
> 
> WHen the x left me, the kids were 3 and 5, it has been long and hard, not much fun, frankly, living this double life, and as Will Kane mentioned, what is in it for either of us?
> 
> Well, we seem to love eachother and want to be together, if she did have an affair, or saw the old boyfriend, if this helped "clarify" her feelings, or consider her options, she seems to want to stay with me.
> 
> This is not like a arranged marriage, as Will Kane speculated, we are together ONLY BECAUSE of companionship, we do not share funds, we are both financially independent, we both prefer it this way (for legal reasons as well).
> 
> I hope people in affairs are reading this and seeing how difficult life is in a blended family. I know that the KIDS are often the reason it all goes south, and when one partner has NO KIDS, they do not understand. * My wife once said she wished my kids died in an accident. That is how hard this is; yet I stay.* Maybe I should be the one leaving.


Game, set, match. I can't even respond the way I was going to now. That f-ing sickened me man. It would take everything withing me not to drop-kick her in the face.


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## sinnister

OP..I don't get it.

You found a forum where tons of people have been right where you are but didnt have the benefit of advice.

They are giving you advice worth it's keystrokes in gold and you're willfully ignore pretty much all of it because it's not what you want to hear.

You're obviously a good father, and probably a good husband too. But you are a terrible friend...to yourself. Nobody knows for sure if she's cheating or not but her. But people are telling you based on their experience in these matters that it sounds more likely than not. Add to this your "gut" which is natures own lie detector, and you have at least reason to be concerned.

To alleviate major doubt about infedility in your marriage it was suggested you live with your wife full time. You proceeded to post numerous reasons why this arrangements works for the two of you, even though your wife flat out told you it's not working for her.

Now you're saying all you want to talk about is whether or not she cheated. Not the factors that could have created the issue or what you should do as next steps. This is the equivalent of "taking your ball and going home". Nothing in the rules says you can't but it makes me seriously question if you're here for help or to just solicit answers that you want to hear.

I wish you and your children luck.


----------



## Ever-Man

sinnister said:


> OP..I don't get it.
> 
> You found a forum where tons of people have been right where you are but didnt have the benefit of advice.
> 
> They are giving you advice worth it's keystrokes in gold and you're willfully ignore pretty much all of it because it's not what you want to hear.
> 
> You're obviously a good father, and probably a good husband too. But you are a terrible friend...to yourself. Nobody knows for sure if she's cheating or not but her. But people are telling you based on their experience in these matters that it sounds more likely than not. Add to this your "gut" which is natures own lie detector, and you have at least reason to be concerned.
> 
> To alleviate major doubt about infedility in your marriage it was suggested you live with your wife full time. You proceeded to post numerous reasons why this arrangements works for the two of you, even though your wife flat out told you it's not working for her.
> 
> Now you're saying all you want to talk about is whether or not she cheated. Not the factors that could have created the issue or what you should do as next steps. This is the equivalent of "taking your ball and going home". Nothing in the rules says you can't but it makes me seriously question if you're here for help or to just solicit answers that you want to hear.
> 
> I wish you and your children luck.


Thanks for your input. I have taken everyone's advice in earnest, thought about it, considered it, and admitted that the unorthodox living arrangement is a strain in my marriage, I have known this. I also know my kids are a strain on my marriage. These are issues to be considered, but they are not the complete point. Everyone has "imperfections" in their marriage, and reasons to cheat; the salient issue is ARE THEY CHEATING? 

There seems to be an assumption here on TAM that everyone's advice is "worth their keystrokes in Gold", and it is "what you need to hear", and if a recipient of such advice isn't isn't open to it, their is a problem with this person, they are in some sort of denial, etc. That is nonsense. All I am pointing out is that much advice given to people ALL OF US is NOT GOOD, and much of it is so bad, that to take such advice could really harm someones life. I pointed out that we all need to be careful, not in the advice we give, but how we offer it.

If I told everyone that my wife is always available to have dinner with my kids on Fridays, she always has a treat for them when she sees them, she is generous on their B'days and Holidays, offers them advice, goes to their school events and is positive and supportive with then, we all get together with our families during Holidays, etc., does that change the opinions that her ugly outburst should send me packing out the door?

If I explained that my wife has a tendency to say a lot of ugly things about her own family, about politicians, and even herself, does that alter anyone's opinions? She can be a harsh *****, but she can also be a supportive loving partner. She is a "round" character, not a stereo-type. 

If I go into all these nuances, it takes a lot of effort, it is a novella, and for the purposes of these forums I am trying to be concise. As I explained before, a lot of posters jump to conclusions and run away with certain details and draw conclusions based on these single events without knowing the whole picture. I am not trying to mislead, it is an inherent flaw in forums like these. Anyway, I went with it, I even mentioned that I have been sent in a direction I was not expecting to go.


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> After your negative reaction to my wife's comments we sat down and discussed it in more detail last night. She elaborated on her position but it seems that you would rather move on from that topic. If you'd like to hear her more in depth response I would be more than willing to offer it. Otherwise, follow the advice others have given you and I wish you good luck.


Thanks much, I appreciate that. Keep in mind my goal is to remain happily married, and improve my marriage. But as I mentioned at the outset, my concerns are whether she is cheating or not, and, secondarily, are my concerns reasonable, or "am I crazy", as the thread title suggests. 

Speculating on whether I have a marriage at all, if I should pre-emptively divorce my wife to learn to become "whole" by spending time with myself, these ideas, while interesting, are in fact destructive to my stated goal. 

That did cause me to speculate about these forums, and how they affect people, and that is the impetus to my comments, yes, springboard from your suggestions, which are basically terrible, if not borderline negligent.

It is interesting PHILLYCHEESE kept asking me to elaborate what was originally a one sentence admonishment, (3 times, no less), and when I did elaborate, PHILLY didn't like what they heard, became beligerant and accusatory, and basically played a mind game. Frankly, I felt like I was being bullied for rejecting ruinous advice, and calling it out. If all is fair on these boards, why is that not fair? 

If someone asks you in a moment of despair if you like their shoes, do you say "what the F is wrong with your feet, those aren't proper shoe-worthy feet, you should fix your feet before you try on shoes like that. Just burn the shoes" Do you see how this might not be the right thing to share with someone ? 

On these forums everyone needs to keep in mind, not all advice is appropriate, and it can be destructive.


----------



## theroad

Ever-Man said:


> I am thinking about this too, perhaps have a man approach her and see if she is receptive. Or maybe a GPS, or more VAR.
> 
> Since we do not live together she does have a lot of time and opportunity to cheat. Another bit of evidence came when she smirked and said "If you have suspicians perhaps you should move in with me".


Why in the world are you married and living apart?

Who supports who financially?


----------



## 2asdf2

Ever-Man said:


> -----------Snip for brevity--------------
> 
> *On these forums everyone needs to keep in mind, not all advice is appropriate, and it can be destructive.*


:iagree:


----------



## Ever-Man

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's true that people on TAM can draw conclusions about situations without the whole picture, but your title to the thread invites posters to do this. Simply asking the question "Did my wife cheat, or am I crazy???" encouraged everyone to speculate.
> 
> OK. If you want to narrow the scope of the discussion to simply "is she cheating or not", then I suggest you do the following: use VARS in her car or plant them in her bedroom since you are not always over there while she is. Install a keylogger on her computer - if possible - to see if you can catch any passwords to sites that she frequents. Monitor any social media sites that she frequents that you are aware of. Check her cell phone bill - if possible - to see if there is a large amount of data being sent to a specific number or if there are gobs of phone calls to 1 or 2 numbers that do not belong to you. You can even hire a PI to try to tail her for a week or 2 if you can afford that. You can start showing up at her place at unplanned times to try to "catch her in the act".
> 
> If that's all you want, then that's what I'll suggest you try. I'll no longer comment on your living arrangement, although I still believe it's the biggest problem you have and is the single biggest root cause to most of your marital problems. But I digress and apologize for not staying in scope...


I am open to all advice, but if it is plain bad, can I be honest with those offering it, just as they are honest with me? Is that not fair? 

Anyway, thanks to all, StayStrong and Plan9, I decided to try the VAR again as Valentines day is coming up and if there is an A this would be the time said person would call on the nights I am not there. 

As I have mentioned, I have done investigating and found nothing solid, other than the red flags already mentioned, which have initiated the concerns. I believe I need to do this, even though it does require some subterfuge on my part, which I am not completely comfortable with.


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## warlock07

Ever-Man said:


> Well, I somewhat jest, I know that having the respect of your wife is important, however I know I am not an Alpha male, we can't all be, but I also know woman of all kinds cheat. Alpha Male Governor Cuomo's wife cheated on him with a tennis playing "dandy", so it is not always so simple.


Off topic but his wife Kerry kennedy's wikipedia page is heavily edited and sanitized to remove any traces of the kind of person she is

Kerry Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ever-Man

warlock07 said:


> Off topic but his wife Kerry kennedy's wikipedia page is heavily edited and sanitized to remove any traces of the kind of person she is
> 
> Kerry Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


How about the rest of the Kennedy's, nearly all cheaters. Notice how the woman who marry into that family either become alcoholics, or find themselves in an early grave.


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## sinnister

I agree Ever-Man. There is advice here that is just simply put foolish. And you'd be wise to laugh at it and ignore it.

When a person comes here in pain the majority of people try to help relying on their own experience as a teaching tool. We're all different people though so no guarantees it would work for you and your wife. Point taken.

1 more thing. I get that perhaps it was an emotional outburst and that your wife does care for your children and do nice things for them. And I get that the fact that you have them is a strain on your relationship. But if you add those 2 things to the circumstantial evidence you've gathered, it's looking more and more like cheating may have occured.

Because she doesn't you technological devices it will be more difficult to prove. Perhaps you could hire someone to find out for sure? A PI could do it but they are expensive.

I think it's a waste of your time and effort since you've already resolved to automatically forgive and move forward with the marriage. So my advice in this case would be to assume she has and continue to live accordingly.


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## Ever-Man

2asdf2 said:


> :iagree:


Thanks, this seems elementary to me but many posters on this board get bent-out-of-shape when you question their advice.


----------



## Ever-Man

sinnister said:


> I agree Ever-Man. There is advice here that is just simply put foolish. And you'd be wise to laugh at it and ignore it.
> 
> When a person comes here in pain the majority of people try to help relying on their own experience as a teaching tool. We're all different people though so no guarantees it would work for you and your wife. Point taken.
> 
> 1 more thing. I get that perhaps it was an emotional outburst and that your wife does care for your children and do nice things for them. And I get that the fact that you have them is a strain on your relationship. But if you add those 2 things to the circumstantial evidence you've gathered, it's looking more and more like cheating may have occured.
> 
> Because she doesn't you technological devices it will be more difficult to prove. Perhaps you could hire someone to find out for sure? A PI could do it but they are expensive.
> 
> I think it's a waste of your time and effort since you've already resolved to automatically forgive and move forward with the marriage. So my advice in this case would be to assume she has and continue to live accordingly.


Thanks, that is kind of what I have done, assumed she has cheated (I suspect I know the time-frame), and I told her straight-up, "you can't fool me, this has happened to me before, I know what it feels like". She didn't like this and needs to have me believe she did not cheat, and she offered to take a lie detector. This made me more suspicious.

In the end, if I believe she did cheat, primarily to protect my psyche, I do treat her differently, which is a problem if she did not cheat, and this is not fair to her. 

Unfortunately, I feel I need to try to know for sure, one way or another.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Ever-Man said:


> I am open to all advice, but if it is plain bad, can I be honest with those offering it, just as they are honest with me? Is that not fair?


It's fair and it's your prerogative to do so. If I made any suggestions in this thread - or anywhere on TAM - that you did not care for and want to call me out on it then that's fine with me. I will not be offended. But I point out to you again that you invited a lot of speculation in the this thread.

I have mentioned it a number of times in other threads that too many people want to provide others seeking advice with comprehensive plans on how to solve a problem. I generally do not try to form my conclusions right away and throw out a whole lot of advice. However, it is still my opinion that your living arrangements are playing a much larger role in all of this than you think. There are certain factors that are pretty close to being absolutes. For one thing, the more time you spend with your spouse, the stronger your marriage will be. Are there exceptions to this? I'm sure there are, but I have never ran across any yet in my lifetime. Many others realize this too, but it's something that is generally non-negotiable to you. Fair enough. It's your life.


----------



## Ever-Man

theroad said:


> Why in the world are you married and living apart?
> 
> Who supports who financially?


We maintain separate finances and households, by mutual choice, and for legal reasons.


----------



## Ever-Man

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's fair and it's your prerogative to do so. If I made any suggestions in this thread - or anywhere on TAM - that you did not care for and want to call me out on it then that's fine with me. I will not be offended. But I point out to you again that you invited a lot of speculation in the this thread.
> 
> I have mentioned it a number of times in other threads that too many people want to provide others seeking advice with comprehensive plans on how to solve a problem. I generally do not try to form my conclusions right away and throw out a whole lot of advice. However, it is still my opinion that your living arrangements are playing a much larger role in all of this than you think. There are certain factors that are pretty close to being absolutes. For one thing, the more time you spend with your spouse, the stronger your marriage will be. Are there exceptions to this? I'm sure there are, but I have never ran across any yet in my lifetime. Many others realize this too, but it's something that is generally non-negotiable to you. Fair enough. It's your life.


I agree, the more time we spend together, the better the relationship, however, couples are forced to do all kinds of things to make a living and raise kids. some people work night shifts, some travel a lot, etc.

Consider this is a MUTUAL DECISION, she would rather live apart the nights I have my kids than be forced to commute to the 'burbs to raise kids that are not hers, when she does not want too. 

Now, there are also advantages: never fight about money NEVER,; never fight about decorating the house, NEVER;, never fight about raising kids, NEVER. Further, it has been easier on my kids who do not have to integrate a step-parent into their daily life, therefore do not become unnaturally attached to someone who does not have an obligation to maintain a relationship if we divorce. 

I have had 2 step-dads, and after they divorced my Mom, never saw them again. Honestly. I thought they cared about me, they didn't. Step-parents usually don't care about kids that are not theirs, and if they divorce the parent, they move on forever. Isn't it better to be honest than live in some fantasy that blended families are stable, and step-parents will care about the step-kids after they divorce the biological parent?


----------



## alte Dame

When my children were young, my H traveled close to 50% of the time. He said, not jokingly, that the airport was a second home to him.

Yes, there were advantages. I made unilateral decisions about home and children, so there was not much to argue over there. Our finances were almost completely separate. The home was my domain, not his. He had his own world, if you will.

But the downside outweighed the ups by far. The distance this creates is deleterious to a marital relationship, in my opinion. Statistics show that infidelity, for one, is far more likely in scenarios like this.

Back to your original post - I definitely believe that there are red flags for you to be seriously concerned about.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks much, I appreciate that. Keep in mind my goal is to remain happily married, and improve my marriage. But as I mentioned at the outset, my concerns are whether she is cheating or not, and, secondarily, are my concerns reasonable, or "am I crazy", as the thread title suggests.
> 
> Speculating on whether I have a marriage at all, if I should pre-emptively divorce my wife to learn to become "whole" by spending time with myself, these ideas, while interesting, are in fact destructive to my stated goal.
> 
> That did cause me to speculate about these forums, and how they affect people, and that is the impetus to my comments, yes, springboard from your suggestions, which are basically terrible, if not borderline negligent.
> 
> It is interesting PHILLYCHEESE kept asking me to elaborate what was originally a one sentence admonishment, (3 times, no less), and when I did elaborate, PHILLY didn't like what they heard, became beligerant and accusatory, and basically played a mind game. Frankly, I felt like I was being bullied for rejecting ruinous advice, and calling it out. If all is fair on these boards, why is that not fair?
> 
> *If someone asks you in a moment of despair if you like their shoes, do you say "what the F is wrong with your feet, those aren't proper shoe-worthy feet, you should fix your feet before you try on shoes like that. Just burn the shoes" Do you see how this might not be the right thing to share with someone ? *
> 
> On these forums everyone needs to keep in mind, not all advice is appropriate, and it can be destructive.


But if your feet are damaged and in need of surgical intervention does it really matter what shoes you are wearing? None will feel good to wear until the problem is fixed.

You are asking if she cheated. My answer is it doesn't matter if you intend to keep your marriage as it is. If she didn't cheat today she may in fact cheat tomorrow because the structure of your marriage is the problem. And if she doesn't cheat at all your marriage in all probability will not endure because of this very basic issue. Your wife has all but told you its a problem for her. How much longer do you think she is willing to continue to stay in this situation. And before you say it you need to understand that as the man it is your job to lead the marriage. If she has to beat you over the head in order to get you to act then you are not leading and she will walk away at some point. Have you considered that this entire situation is her way of giving you a 2x4 to the head?


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> I agree, the more time we spend together, the better the relationship, however, couples are forced to do all kinds of things to make a living and raise kids. some people work night shifts, some travel a lot, etc.
> 
> Consider this is a MUTUAL DECISION, she would rather live apart the nights I have my kids than be forced to commute to the 'burbs to raise kids that are not hers, when she does not want too.
> 
> Now, there are also advantages: never fight about money NEVER,; never fight about decorating the house, NEVER;, never fight about raising kids, NEVER. Further, it has been easier on my kids who do not have to integrate a step-parent into their daily life, therefore do not become unnaturally attached to someone who does not have an obligation to maintain a relationship if we divorce.
> 
> I have had 2 step-dads, and after they divorced my Mom, never saw them again. Honestly. I thought they cared about me, they didn't. Step-parents usually don't care about kids that are not theirs, and if they divorce the parent, they move on forever. Isn't it better to be honest than live in some fantasy that blended families are stable, and step-parents will care about the step-kids after they divorce the biological parent?


How do your children feel about daddy being married to a woman that does not want much to do with them? You don't think that is having an effect on their young impressionable minds?


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> But if your feet are damaged and in need of surgical intervention does it really matter what shoes you are wearing? None will feel good to wear until the problem is fixed.
> 
> You are asking if she cheated. My answer is it doesn't matter if you intend to keep your marriage as it is. If she didn't cheat today she may in fact cheat tomorrow because the structure of your marriage is the problem. And if she doesn't cheat at all your marriage in all probability will not endure because of this very basic issue. Your wife has all but told you its a problem for her. How much longer do you think she is willing to continue to stay in this situation. And before you say it you need to understand that as the man it is your job to lead the marriage. If she has to beat you over the head in order to get you to act then you are not leading and she will walk away at some point. Have you considered that this entire situation is her way of giving you a 2x4 to the head?


Nice retort to the analogy. I agree that the structure of the marriage is a strain, and perhaps my willingness to forgive her if she did cheat reflects my admittance that the structure of our marriage offers each of us elements of freedom that could make cheating a forgivable discretion. You are not quite reading the details properly: this is her decision not to be with me when I am mandated by the courts to have over-nights with my kids. It is HER that has decided not to travel to my house. 

She can come here anytime she likes, but appears willing to keep this arrangement as it works for her, apparently. ANd me too. And my kids, who like her better than the step-dad who lives with them.

I don't know why you are unwilling to see that this arrangement can work. You remind me of George Constanza regarding wallets: "A man carries a wallet!!" That's it. 

Our arrangement is not that unusual anymore either, do some research, you will see.


----------



## 3putt

Ever-Man said:


> *I don't know why you are unwilling to see that this arrangement can work.* You remind me of George Constanza regarding wallets: "A man carries a wallet!!" That's it.


UHHHH, I hate to state the obvious here, but if this kind of arrangement can work, then why in the hell are you here on an infidelity board???

:scratchhead:


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## TRy

Ever-Man said:


> Our arrangement is not that unusual anymore either, do some research, you will see.


 I did do the research and saw that it is still very unusual, as a recent article stated that a study showed that only 1 in 20 married couples live apart. I know it makes people feel better to say what they are doing is not that uncommon, but getting a reality check is helpful from time to time.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Ever-Man, you and your wife would've been better off being friends with benefits, which what your current living arrangement looks like.


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## bfree

TRy said:


> I did do the research and saw that it is still very unusual, as a recent article stated that a study showed that only 1 in 20 married couples live apart. I know it makes people feel better to say what they are doing is not that uncommon, but getting a reality check is helpful from time to time.


Statistically speaking many of those couples are in fact separated so I'm not sure those should count toward committed couples living apart. Also, the divorce rate is extremely high for couples trying to stay married but living apart. And the #1 reason given for this type of living arrangement is that due to the economy one spouse needs to work in another city far enough away that daily commuting is almost impossible. So its not exactly voluntary.

Ever-Man, it seems that you are almost saying that you passively accept that your marriage may in fact morph into an open marriage. I do not doubt that your wife doesn't want to move into your home with your children but it does beg the question why did you get married when you really aren't interested in sharing 100% of each other's lives?


----------



## Ever-Man

3putt said:


> UHHHH, I hate to state the obvious here, but if this kind of arrangement can work, then why in the hell are you here on an infidelity board???
> 
> :scratchhead:


So there are more people who engage in infidelity who live together, does that mean living together will cause infidelity? 

Unrelated issues.


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> Statistically speaking many of those couples are in fact separated so I'm not sure those should count toward committed couples living apart. Also, the divorce rate is extremely high for couples trying to stay married but living apart. And the #1 reason given for this type of living arrangement is that due to the economy one spouse needs to work in another city far enough away that daily commuting is almost impossible. So its not exactly voluntary.
> 
> Ever-Man, it seems that you are almost saying that you passively accept that your marriage may in fact morph into an open marriage. I do not doubt that your wife doesn't want to move into your home with your children but it does beg the question why did you get married when you really aren't interested in sharing 100% of each other's lives?


We spend the majority of our time together, travel 1 month out of the year. The living issues happened after we were married, she did do the commute for awhile.

Tonight, our apart night, I just got back from boyscouts, was gone most of the evening, kids are heading to bed soon, if she were here at my house she would be sitting home alone, until basically bedtime.


----------



## TRy

Ever-Man said:


> So there are more people who engage in infidelity who live together, does that mean living together will cause infidelity?


 No it does not mean that living together will cause infidelity. It just means that it is so rare that even if 100% of all couple that do not live together engaged in infidelity, that the number would still be much smaller than when compared to the rest of the married couples that do live together. The real issue is that the rate of infidelity of couples that do no live together is probably higher than for those that do live together. But of course you knew that was the point didn't you?


----------



## TRy

Ever-Man said:


> Tonight, our apart night, I just got back from boyscouts, was gone most of the evening, kids are heading to bed soon, if she were here at my house she would be sitting home alone, until basically bedtime.


 So those hours chatting when the kids are asleep and sleeping together with your spouse do not matter to you?


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

TRy said:


> So those hours chatting when the kids are asleep and sleeping together with your spouse do not matter to you?


TRy, you're beating a dead horse. Even if they eventually divorce, he'll swear that the living arrangement was good and not the cause of the breakup.


----------



## ironman

Ever-Man said:


> I agree, the more time we spend together, the better the relationship, however, couples are forced to do all kinds of things to make a living and raise kids. some people work night shifts, some travel a lot, etc.


... and all those things they're forced to do add marital stress and contribute to the potential for infidelity. But you already know that.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> We spend the majority of our time together, travel 1 month out of the year. The living issues happened after we were married, she did do the commute for awhile.
> 
> Tonight, our apart night, I just got back from boyscouts, was gone most of the evening, kids are heading to bed soon, if she were here at my house she would be sitting home alone, *until basically bedtime.*


When my wife and I go to bed we talk a great deal about the daily events, plans for the next day or two, issues that need addressing, etc. Of course other things happen in bed as well. 

My point is that bedtime for us is a huge bonding moment EVERY NIGHT. It allows us to reconnect after the day's hustle and bustle. Every adult has lots going on that may keep us away from our loved ones. But that last few moments before going to sleep is so important. And falling asleep while cuddling and spooning with my wife completely releases any stresses I might have accululated during the day. You and your wife are not bonding. Fragile bonds do not make a good marriage. Someone can very easily come in between you and your wife and break those bonds a lot more easily than if you were reinforcing them each and every night.


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> When my wife and I go to bed we talk a great deal about the daily events, plans for the next day or two, issues that need addressing, etc. Of course other things happen in bed as well.
> 
> My point is that bedtime for us is a huge bonding moment EVERY NIGHT. It allows us to reconnect after the day's hustle and bustle. Every adult has lots going on that may keep us away from our loved ones. But that last few moments before going to sleep is so important. And falling asleep while cuddling and spooning with my wife completely releases any stresses I might have accululated during the day. You and your wife are not bonding. Fragile bonds do not make a good marriage. Someone can very easily come in between you and your wife and break those bonds a lot more easily than if you were reinforcing them each and every night.


So there are couples who go to bed together every night while one of them is having an affair behind the others back, and they cuddle and fall asleep together, one cheating and fooling the other. 

It does not seem living together is an antidote to divorce. I already agreed with everyone that my living situation is a strain, but it need not be a cause of infidelity if a couple is committed and loves each other, and have the moral character to be faithful, THAT IS THE KEY, not the living arrangement. Any good marriage between committed people can survive many unusual strains.


----------



## Jasel

I really think people are getting too focused on the living arrangments. While not ideal there are a myriad of other problems which I think are more relevant. Even if these 2 did live together I doubt it would really address the underlying issues.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Jasel said:


> I really think people are getting too focused on the living arrangments. While not ideal there are a myriad of other problems which I think are more relevant. Even if these 2 did live together I doubt it would really address the underlying issues.


I'd agree except, he said they don't really exist and people are on the outside looking in with partial information. People have moved on to the one that doesn't need 900 million variables to discuss; LDRs.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> So there are couples who go to bed together every night while one of them is having an affair behind the others back, and they cuddle and fall asleep together, one cheating and fooling the other.
> 
> It does not seem living together is an antidote to divorce. I already agreed with everyone that my living situation is a strain, but it need not be a cause of infidelity if a couple is committed and loves each other, and have the moral character to be faithful, THAT IS THE KEY, not the living arrangement. Any good marriage between committed people can survive many unusual strains.


What you keep doing is stating an exception to the rule and using this to reinforce your beliefs. What you don't seem to want to grasp is that they are indeed exceptions and NOT the rule thereby proving that the rule is the most likely and widespread fact. Do some people who are cheating behave in a way that is the antithesis of what we would believe they should behave. Yes. Does it prove that taking steps to promote and encourage intimacy is a useless endeavor. NO!

You keep beating around the bush because you do not want to admit that your current arrangement is THE problem. You keep looking for another solution or cause for the issues you are currently experiencing in your relationship. Is it possible that you just do not want to address this issue because you know by pulling off this bandaid you won't just find a sore or a scar but a case of gangrene? You ask in your original post did she cheat or are you crazy. It is very likely that she did in fact cheat but what you do not want to address is why. Until you are willing to sit down and reexamine your marriage in a realistic way you will not find any solutions to your problem.


----------



## Ever-Man

bfree said:


> What you keep doing is stating an exception to the rule and using this to reinforce your beliefs. What you don't seem to want to grasp is that they are indeed exceptions and NOT the rule thereby proving that the rule is the most likely and widespread fact. Do some people who are cheating behave in a way that is the antithesis of what we would believe they should behave. Yes. Does it prove that taking steps to promote and encourage intimacy is a useless endeavor. NO!
> 
> You keep beating around the bush because you do not want to admit that your current arrangement is THE problem. You keep looking for another solution or cause for the issues you are currently experiencing in your relationship. Is it possible that you just do not want to address this issue because you know by pulling off this bandaid you won't just find a sore or a scar but a case of gangrene? You ask in your original post did she cheat or are you crazy. It is very likely that she did in fact cheat but what you do not want to address is why. Until you are willing to sit down and reexamine your marriage in a realistic way you will not find any solutions to your problem.


, 

I didn't come here looking for help with my marriage, or my living situation, or even "why did/is my wife cheating", but "did she cheat or am I crazy", and I believe I have gone as far as I can with the evidence I have, and that I need more in order to have any certainty. 

Reading other posters insights has been very helpful, including advice that I don't wholly embrace, and most useful has been seeing the kinds of behaviors of unfaithful wives, including one situation that nearly mirrors mine, with the same kind of evidence.

WHile the living arrangement is an issue, not ideal, the real issue, BFREE is that I have kids, and the wife has made this plainly clear, she wishes I did not have kids, PERIOD. That is the issue she always brings up, which is the reason we are not spending every night together. 

The good news is that the kid are getting older, and soon the court mandated overnights will be off the plate.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Ever-Man said:


> I didn't come here looking for help with my marriage, or my living situation, or even "why did/is my wife cheating", but "did she cheat or am I crazy", and I believe I have gone as far as I can with the evidence I have, and that I need more in order to have any certainty.


She cheated.


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> ,
> 
> I didn't come here looking for help with my marriage, or my living situation, or even "why did/is my wife cheating", but "did she cheat or am I crazy", and I believe I have gone as far as I can with the evidence I have, and that I need more in order to have any certainty.
> 
> Reading other posters insights has been very helpful, including advice that I don't wholly embrace, and most useful has been seeing the kinds of behaviors of unfaithful wives, including one situation that nearly mirrors mine, with the same kind of evidence.
> 
> WHile the living arrangement is an issue, not ideal, the real issue, BFREE is that I have kids, and the wife has made this plainly clear, she wishes I did not have kids, PERIOD. That is the issue she always brings up, which is the reason we are not spending every night together.
> 
> The good news is that the kid are getting older, and soon the court mandated overnights will be off the plate.


Ok, I understand. You aren't ready. Just please understand that as long as things continue the way they are currently your marriage will continue to descend down this path of deception and veiled innuendo. I hope you make it to the point where your court mandated overnights will be concluded but the way I see things you will either be divorced or in a one sided open marriage by then. Good luck.


----------



## Ever-Man

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> She cheated.


What percent are you sure of this and what do you think is the most damning evidence?


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Ever-Man said:


> What percent are you sure of this and what do you think is the most damning evidence?


Based on the evidence you presented, I would surmise somewhere between 75% and 100%.

However, does it really matter? After all, you've already forgiven her.


----------



## alte Dame

Ever-Man - I'm very sympathetic to you. You are faced with a very murky situation, one that doesn't present itself clearly, but could have very serious repercussions.

Your decisions on your marital living arrangements spark such a huge discussion, I think, because people don't see those arrangements as separate from your concerns about infidelity. And no matter how you argue the point, statistics show that a higher percentage of couples who live apart report infidelity and separation/divorce. So, connecting these two issues isn't coincidental or pig-headed on the part of the posters here.

I lived for many years with a spouse who was absent for much of every month & it was a challenge and a lot of work to make it work for us. We are still together, so we're not part of those famed statistics.

I would urge you to continue to follow up on the red flags, if for no other reason than the seriousness of the consequences for both of you if your suspicions turn out to be well-founded. As far as the living arrangements, they don't help things on balance, in my experience, but different strokes, so you could wind up on the happy side of the statistics.


----------



## StillSearching

From my experience she will take a polygraph and fail it and still say it was wrong. My wife had an affair and did all the things the OP posted. Go with your gut. It's usually right.


----------



## bfree

MrBrains said:


> From my experience she will take a polygraph and fail it and still say it was wrong. My wife had an affair and did all the things the OP posted. Go with your gut. It's usually right.


This brings up a good point. If your wife is adamant that she did not cheat and wants to reassure you would she take a polygraph to set your mind at ease? I know if my wife had any concerns about me I wouldn't hesitate and I know she wouldn't flinch either. Does your wife love you enough to take a polygraph so you can set aside these concerns?


----------



## badbane

Okay here are the facts

You suspect cheating. You have noticed dishonesty when confronting about the underwear. 
Why feel guilty about buying underwear with her money. It was not purchased for you because she has not worn it for you.

You mentioned the strained relationship. Living in two houses is not good. Why wouldn't she just want to sell the house and get all that money out of it? I mean she could move in sell her house and invest the money and be even better off. 

So she has a complete other home she can go to at any time without any scrutiny. Therefore having an affair would be very easy for her. 

You want to know what I would do. Put a var in her bedroom in her house. Should be easy enough to do. There are a lot of things that don't make sense.
I live in a blended family an my stepsons are treated the same as my biological children with my wife. 

I see a lot of your posts where you are defending this arrangement even though it really is illogical and if you are married it wouldn't hurt your kids to see you in a happy relationship. But your woman is acting like a girlfriend and not a wife. I married my wife and my step children too. You don't get to just bail and if she choose to live separately there was a reason for it and it may not be a entirely honest and moral reason.


----------



## TRy

Ever-Man said:


> It does not seem living together is an antidote to divorce. I already agreed with everyone that my living situation is a strain, but it need not be a cause of infidelity if a couple is committed and loves each other, and have the moral character to be faithful, THAT IS THE KEY, not the living arrangement. Any good marriage between committed people can survive many unusual strains.


 I agree that your living situation need not be a cause of infidelity, but it is the why you do not live together that is the issue. Unlike most couples that have compelling reasons that force them to live apart, with little effort the two of you could live together. Your wife has chosen not to come home to you out of convenience and that is the big red flag of your living situation.

For years I worked long hours in the city and then drove a long commute home to the suburbs. Like you, we had the financial resources that would have allowed me to stay in the city during much of the work week. Practically speaking it would have been more convenient to do so; but when weighing the convenience against my desire to be with my wife, it was never even a consideration. Bottom line, I wanted to come home everyday. I wanted to see my wife everyday. Home to me was was with her. Ask your wife where home is, and it is in the city and not with you. Ask you where home is, and it is in the suburbs and not with your wife. Even troops deployed overseas consider home to be where their spouses live. Likewise people deployed by work away from home consider home to be with their spouses. You and your wife do not just live apart during the week, you both do not share a common home.


----------



## Fisherman

TRy said:


> I agree that your living situation need not be a cause of infidelity, but it is the why you do not live together that is the issue. Unlike most couples that have compelling reasons that force them to live apart, with little effort the two of you could live together. Your wife has chosen not to come home to you out of convenience and that is the big red flag of your living situation.
> 
> For years I worked long hours in the city and then drove a long commute home to the suburbs. Like you, we had the financial resources that would have allowed me to stay in the city during much of the work week. Practically speaking it would have been more convenient to do so; but when weighing the convenience against my desire to be with my wife, it was never even a consideration. Bottom line, I wanted to come home everyday. I wanted to see my wife everyday. Home to me was was with her. Ask your wife where home is, and it is in the city and not with you. Ask you where home is, and it is in the suburbs and not with your wife. Even troops deployed overseas consider home to be where their spouses live. Likewise people deployed by work away from home consider home to be with their spouses. You and your wife do not just live apart during the week, you both do not share a common home.


I worked in another city from my wife for 6 years and hated it. It was the worst thing i could have ever done to my marriage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

My apologies for taking you at your ORIGINAL WORD.


Ever-Man said:


> ,
> 
> I didn't come here looking for help with my marriage, or my living situation, *or even "why did/is my wife cheating*", but "did she cheat or am I crazy", and I believe I have gone as far as I can with the evidence I have, and that I need more in order to have any certainty.


Yes, a wife means marriage, asking for help means helping you with your marriage. That's EXACTLY what you asked.


Title said:


> Did my wife cheat, or am I crazy???





Ever-Man said:


> Not sure if the wife is cheating, please help, I will try to be concise.


Good luck to you and your future endeavors.


----------



## Ever-Man

So my wife is cool with us not spending Valentines Day together, we are going out tonight instead, Thursdays I am usually home with the boys, have scouts until late. 

She also told me not to bother sending any flowers to her office as it is just before the weekend and she will have to bring them home and that is a hassle. 

My Spidey senses are tingling, it smells like she is planning a date with her B-friend, if there is one. My plan is to show up at her place around 7:45 Valentines Day and see if she is home, make some excuse that I am "surprising" her. I am also going to set up a VAR tonight in her apartment. 

This should be definitive.


----------



## Chris989

Good luck - you're doing the right thing.


----------



## SofaKingWeToddId

Ever-Man said:


> So my wife is cool with us not spending Valentines Day together, we are going out tonight instead, Thursdays I am usually home with the boys, have scouts until late.
> 
> She also told me not to bother sending any flowers to her office as it is just before the weekend and she will have to bring them home and that is a hassle.
> 
> My Spidey senses are tingling, it smells like she is planning a date with her B-friend, if there is one. My plan is to show up at her place around 7:45 Valentines Day and see if she is home, make some excuse that I am "surprising" her. I am also going to set up a VAR tonight in her apartment.
> 
> This should be definitive.


Good for you. It is empowering to take action.


----------



## Ever-Man

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> Good for you. It is empowering to take action.


And to KNOW THE TRUTH. She could be completely faithful and there are other explanations to the red-flags. 

In the meantime I am suspecting her and it affects how I feel and how I treat her. And the suspicions could all be mis-interpretation of the "red flags". 

Last night I went to her place to see if she was home, and the lights were on, she was home.


----------



## ShootMePlz!

Just send her One Rose to her work in a way that all see it!! Mark your territory!!


----------



## bfree

Ever-Man said:


> So my wife is cool with us not spending Valentines Day together, we are going out tonight instead, Thursdays I am usually home with the boys, have scouts until late.
> 
> She also told me not to bother sending any flowers to her office as it is just before the weekend and she will have to bring them home and that is a hassle.
> 
> My Spidey senses are tingling, it smells like she is planning a date with her B-friend, if there is one. My plan is to show up at her place around 7:45 Valentines Day and see if she is home, make some excuse that I am "surprising" her. I am also going to set up a VAR tonight in her apartment.
> 
> This should be definitive.


It sounds like a good plan. And as an added bonus you aren't being predictable. That's good. I try to do one or two surprise moves each week with my wife. It keeps them on their toes.


----------



## Ever-Man

Thanks for the support. It is odd to me that she does not want me to send flowers, as she always has in the past. Paranoid ME says it is because someone else may send her flowers and she does not want to have to explain to co-workers why she has 2 deliveries. 

Also, in the past we met for Valentines Day, this time she is OK with the night before. 

I am going to her place around 7, and see if she if home. If not I am going in to "surprise" her, see what happens. Kind of nervous.


----------



## Ever-Man

Also last night, after diner, no romance, no intimacy. I always initiate, but didn't and I thought maybe she attempted to initiate, or thought it odd that I didn't: since I suspect her I am in a bad mood. And I couldn't sleep last night and she was very nice and affectionate about it, but since I suspect her I am not open to her affection. 

This is the flip-side of being suspicious without evidence, if affects the way you feel towards your spouse, AND IT IS JUST AS LIKELY SHE IS 100% FAITHFUL and my behavior is "crazy".


----------



## tom67

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks for the support. It is odd to me that she does not want me to send flowers, as she always has in the past. Paranoid ME says it is because someone else may send her flowers and she does not want to have to explain to co-workers why she has 2 deliveries.
> 
> Also, in the past we met for Valentines Day, this time she is OK with the night before.
> 
> I am going to her place around 7, and see if she if home. If not I am going in to "surprise" her, see what happens. Kind of nervous.


Good plan.:iagree:


----------



## SofaKingWeToddId

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks for the support. It is odd to me that she does not want me to send flowers, as she always has in the past. Paranoid ME says it is because someone else may send her flowers and she does not want to have to explain to co-workers why she has 2 deliveries.
> 
> Also, in the past we met for Valentines Day, this time she is OK with the night before.
> 
> I am going to her place around 7, and see if she if home. If not I am going in to "surprise" her, see what happens. Kind of nervous.


Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## TRy

Ever-Man said:


> She also told me not to bother sending any flowers to her office as it is just before the weekend and she will have to bring them home and that is a hassle.


 You sending flowers lets other men know that she is taken. She does not appear to want that. That is a red flag. 

Send the biggest live plant that you can to her, with a note that says that as a live plant it can stay at the office, so she does not have to hassle taking it home.


----------



## Ever-Man

TRy said:


> You sending flowers lets other men know that she is taken. She does not appear to want that. That is a red flag.
> 
> Send the biggest live plant that you can to her, with a note that says that as a live plant it can stay at the office, so she does not have to hassle taking it home.


Funny, this is what I did last year, and it was a rose that had not bloomed yet and I think she was embarresed in her office since it was like a stick in dirt. That could also be the reason why she told me not to bother sending any flowers this year, usually she makes a big deal out of it so everyone can see she has gotten flowers, they are not for herself, she considers them a hassle to take care of and bring home. 

You see, there are alternate explanations to my paranoid scenario.


----------



## SofaKingWeToddId

So how did it go?


----------



## Shaggy

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> So how did it go?


I'm fearing the worst since he hasn't been on since yesterday afternoon when he said he was planning on checking on where she was going on V day.


----------



## terrence4159

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## 3putt

Shaggy said:


> I'm fearing the worst since he hasn't been on since yesterday afternoon when he said he was planning on checking on where she was going on V day.


Think about it; how often is it _not_ the worst around here?

I really hated typing that.


----------



## BridgeOfHeartaches

Ever-Man, hello from a newbie here. I read all your thread, it caught my interest. 
I find your suspicions very based. When a woman buys sexy lingerie, it's usually sign that she just started seeing a guy, or has a very active sexual relationship with her current partner. She doesn't buy them just to look at herself in the mirror in them...
She stated her willingness to take a poly test. That can mean :
1. She is bluffing- she doesn't think you would go that far by making her take it
2.She knows that poly test are not 100% accurate, and she can use this should the result say she's lying. Or, she is that good a liar that she is confident she can cheat the poly.
3.She really has nothing to hide. But then, what's about the lingerie, guilty look, not spending V-DAY together and not wanting flowers from you? 
I hope you did install the VAR, and in addition to that, may I suggest a hidden camera? Google nanny cams, hidden cameras, ther is a wide selection of websites providing all kind of cameras for all needs. Get one in her house.
You sound like a good, forgiving husband, but why on Earth would you want to be married with a woman who hates your kids, puts you down and apparently, is even cheating on you?? Why not find 
a woman who loves chidren, YOUR children, is ready to move in with you to be a full time wife and mother? Both you and the kids deserve better than this.


----------



## Ever-Man

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> So how did it go?


Sorry for the long cliff-hanger, to everyone who has followed my situation, I didn 't want to access TAM on my wifes computer. 

So I staked out her office (stood in different spots on the street, felt pretty creepy) and noted the time she left work to go home, actually saw her leave the office. Then went to her place a half-hour later and noticed the lights were on, so I went out and got flowers (being Valentines Day and all) and I went to her door, knocked, and then let myself.....she was in her pajamas eating soup. "Baby!!", she cried, "what a great surprise", and she looked really happy to see me. She loved the flowers, we had a nice night. 

Totally blew my world, I was nearly 70% certain she would not be home, I had butterflies and felt sick preparing for what I expected to be true. 

Instead of confirming my worst fears, we had a great weekend, had eyes open intimacy, both Sat and Sun, we enjoyed eachother, and in bed I brought up the lingerie issue, noting, (as I was taking off her panties) "your wearing granny panties", and she said 

"These aren't 'granny panties'", (They ARE one toned pale-beige plain underpants, but in her drawer she has elaborate lingeries, bright colors, with bows, and pearls, and lace. Does she think I am stupid, I don't get this response. Is it a bluff, or is she stupid and does not see the difference, or just a bad lie. 

THen I ask why doesn't she wear them, and she says because they are itchy, then I ask, "why do you keep buying them then", and she didn't say anything. At that point began sucking her ...

Anyway, I am not stopping my investigations. It was just before thanksgiving that I confronted her with my suspicions and her seeming sense of "guilt" after I brought it up, and subsequent increased attentiveness towards me, along with my gut feeling, (however tainted by my past devastating cuckolding) puts me on guard. 

Is this worth continued investigations, or should I admit I was wrong, perhaps if there was an affair of some sort, it is over.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm glad you didn't have a D day


----------



## HappyHubby

I'm happy you had a good Valentine's day.. but if there are logical questions that are yet unresolved then I wouldn't give up on monitoring just yet. all these panties and yet never for you? for whom then? why NOT for you if they are in her drawer?

Also, it was V-day that you checked up on her. Its the one day she SHOULD expect a surprise visit from you. 

Also, if there WAS an affair that is now over, that thought would not be acceptable to me. I would need to know.


----------



## Will_Kane

I think you have posted in the past that she DOES WEAR or HAS WORN the sexy lingerie to work, but NEVER with you.

That is cheater behavior.

I had an old girlfriend a long time ago tell me that women in general, and her in particular, KNEW before they left the house whether or not they would be having sex on their date. She was trying to tell me that the decision for sex had nothing to do with what a guy said or did while out with her on the date, as long as he didn't screw it up too badly, the decision for sex on her part was made before she even left the house. And if she decided to have sex, there was a lot of PREP work, grooming, freshening up, AND SEXY LINGERIE. I don't think that same prep work necessarily applies to husbands, but it does to guys with whom the sexual relationship is just beginning.

Everman, you also had other signs of infidelity, albeit very vague ones, such as feeling a distance, not wanting to be together at certain times, and your own gut feeling.

If your wife has, in fact, worn the lingerie to work, then her "itchy" excuse and the fact that she bought so much of it and the fact that you NEVER get an ANSWER to the question of WHY she buys it, all bother me a lot.

Trying to put myself in your shoes, I know I would confront directly and demand an answer about the lingerie, the "itchy" excuse, her wearing it to work, her buying so much of it. If me pushing for an answer on that would destroy my marriage, then the heck with it, my marriage isn't very strong and maybe not worth saving. This is not the type of question that, IF ALL IS WELL, should be any kind of sticking point for my wife to answer. Maybe my wife gets annoyed with me for asking, but I AM going to get an answer that makes sense or I AM NOT going to leave that subject alone.

If you refuse to push for an answer on the lingerie question, if your marriage can't survive that type of questioning, then just stop driving yourself crazy with the snooping and stakeouts and just keep your eyes and ear open going forward.


----------



## staystrong

The lingerie is evidence enough. What other possible reason could she have lingerie and not be wearing it for you?

She's cheating/ed. Are you okay with it?

To me it sounds like you are just so relieved she's stopped. Hey that's great (i'm not being sarcastic) but at the same time what does it mean for your marriage? She was willing to cheat already, how will you affair proof your marriage going forward? Won't that require working on trust, which now is fairly non-existent?


----------



## keko

Ever-Man said:


> THen I ask why doesn't she wear them, and she says because they are itchy, then I ask, "why do you keep buying them then", and she didn't say anything. At that point began sucking her ...


I'm glad you didn't catch her in the bed with someone else but the quoted part got me thinking.

Either she's getting her needs met at work, in one of the empty office's or during lunch break.


----------



## tom67

keko said:


> I'm glad you didn't catch her in the bed with someone else but the quoted part got me thinking.
> 
> Either she's getting her needs met at work, in one of the empty office's or during lunch break.


Maybe time for a surprise visit for lunch at her work place?


----------



## Ignis

It is good that you brought up this conversation with her. I think you don't have enough evidence to make any conclusions. I suggest you two should talk more, openly and about things that really matters to both of you. It will bond your relationship.


----------



## HappyHubby

lol. I just have to say it again. she's contradicting herself and proving herself to be lying. THATS NOT GOOD.

She doesn't wear them because they are itchy. LIE. You saw her wearing them to work. No one in their right mind would spend a whole day at work wearing something they found itchy and uncomfortable.

She doesn't ever wear them. LIE. You saw her wear them. Also she bought them with the intention of wearing them. Why did she buy them? Of course she is wearing them.

She is not wearing them with you around. WTF. Thats not good.

In summary, she doesn't wear hot panties around you but only when she goes off to work. She says they are uncomfortable when asked why you don't ever see them on. That's a lie. She's had disconnected uninterested sex with you in the past (typical WW behaviour. Emotionally detach from husband when cheating.)

I think all is not resolved and warrants more than just monitoring. You need to think outside the box and up your investigation level.

Can you afford a PI? I think one would be able to solve it for you. Just wait until things settle down and you suspect she may be starting up again. Have the PI on speed-dial.


----------



## Ever-Man

HappyHubby said:


> lol. I just have to say it again. she's contradicting herself and proving herself to be lying. THATS NOT GOOD.
> 
> She doesn't wear them because they are itchy. LIE. You saw her wearing them to work. No one in their right mind would spend a whole day at work wearing something they found itchy and uncomfortable.
> 
> She doesn't ever wear them. LIE. You saw her wear them. Also she bought them with the intention of wearing them. Why did she buy them? Of course she is wearing them.
> 
> She is not wearing them with you around. WTF. Thats not good.
> 
> In summary, she doesn't wear hot panties around you but only when she goes off to work. She says they are uncomfortable when asked why you don't ever see them on. That's a lie. She's had disconnected uninterested sex with you in the past (typical WW behaviour. Emotionally detach from husband when cheating.)
> 
> I think all is not resolved and warrants more than just monitoring. You need to think outside the box and up your investigation level.
> 
> Can you afford a PI? I think one would be able to solve it for you. Just wait until things settle down and you suspect she may be starting up again. Have the PI on speed-dial.


THanks everyone for the feedback. 

The lingerie is a big sticking point with me and the main reason I began to suspect something was up. We have been together for 8 years, she used to wear sexy lingerie for me on those special nights, and then it tapered off to never. 

WHen I first confronted about the underwear, she told me she didn't have that much lingerie, so we went to her drawer and noted that MOST of her underwear is "sexy". Regarding her wearing it to work, my memory is a bit foggy as to when I noticed this and how often, she does not wear it to work currently, but I noted she looked quite sexy going to work some mornings, and this made me suspicious.

So I carefully examined this lingerie with my heavy-duty reading glasses, and do notice a lot of it does seem to be in good condition, not worn much. and some have tags still on them that have "yellowed" they have been on so long. 

But it still bothers me. I am still on guard and wanting to know if something is/did happen. 

I am going to set up the VAR more, though the real nut to crack is her workplace; it looks like it is/was a workplace affair situation to me. 

Since the one time I brought up my suspicions (around Thanksgiving) I felt it was revealing in several ways, I may bring this up again, and see if I can get her to crack. I told her flat out "I cannot be fooled, I have been through this before and I know what it feels like" and this was met with a look of concern on her face, and silence. 

For people who have been through this before, spouses can lie convincingly, remain silent strategically, go "underground" with an affair until the scrutiny subsides, and in the words of Bill Clinton, a serial cheater, "deny, deny, deny", and they do so with a clear conscious because they believe they are PROTECTING YOU from being hurt. They lie FOR YOU, and will say nearly anything. I will never fully trust a woman again, knowing what I know. 

I can also bring up the "lie detector" offer again, see the reaction. 

Thanks again to everyone who has helped with their opinion.


----------



## tom67

I think you're holding your own here. May be an affair that tapered off. Good idea on the vars house/car. Time will tell.


----------



## Ever-Man

Will_Kane said:


> And if she decided to have sex, there was a lot of PREP work, grooming, freshening up, AND SEXY LINGERIE. I don't think that same prep work necessarily applies to husbands, but it does to guys with whom the sexual relationship is just beginning.


This would explain why she does not wear it for me, in a legitimate way, not related to infidelity. As a relationship becomes routine, it is true that prepping for marital sex can become rare, or non-existant, in many relationships. personally, I am not down with that, even if there is no infidelity.


----------



## Chris989

Ever-Man said:


> This would explain why she does not wear it for me, in a legitimate way, not related to infidelity. As a relationship becomes routine, it is true that prepping for marital sex can become rare, or non-existant, in many relationships. personally, I am not down with that, even if there is no infidelity.


Firstly, I'm really pleased you had a great valentine's day and her initial reaction to your being there sounds nigh on perfect!

You are, however, trying to prove a negative: that your wife is *not* having an affair. There is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary - as you have noted.

If your wife valued your relationship she *would* dress up - even if only occasionally.

I can't recall if you have children or not, but if you don't have kids then why the heck wouldn't she want to surprise you with sexy lingerie sometimes?

Maybe you both just need a bit of a kick up the backside on the marriage front and this episode might be what it needs.

I hope so, but as others have said you maybe have more work to do.

It's good to see you taking this issue so seriously. You are showing in the most real sense that you care for your marriage. Good for you.


----------



## alte Dame

It seems like you remain in limbo unfortunately. Your Valentines Day was heartening, but the lingerie issue remains troubling. So, you can't find real peace, which is completely understandable. If I were in your shoes, I would just stay vigilant and see how things develop.


----------



## dogman

Ever-Man said:


> Sorry for the long cliff-hanger, to everyone who has followed my situation, I didn 't want to access TAM on my wifes computer.
> 
> So I staked out her office (stood in different spots on the street, felt pretty creepy) and noted the time she left work to go home, actually saw her leave the office. Then went to her place a half-hour later and noticed the lights were on, so I went out and got flowers (being Valentines Day and all) and I went to her door, knocked, and then let myself.....she was in her pajamas eating soup. "Baby!!", she cried, "what a great surprise", and she looked really happy to see me. She loved the flowers, we had a nice night.
> 
> Totally blew my world, I was nearly 70% certain she would not be home, I had butterflies and felt sick preparing for what I expected to be true.
> 
> Instead of confirming my worst fears, we had a great weekend, had eyes open intimacy, both Sat and Sun, we enjoyed eachother, and in bed I brought up the lingerie issue, noting, (as I was taking off her panties) "your wearing granny panties", and she said
> 
> "These aren't 'granny panties'", (They ARE one toned pale-beige plain underpants, but in her drawer she has elaborate lingeries, bright colors, with bows, and pearls, and lace. Does she think I am stupid, I don't get this response. Is it a bluff, or is she stupid and does not see the difference, or just a bad lie.
> 
> THen I ask why doesn't she wear them, and she says because they are itchy, then I ask, "why do you keep buying them then", and she didn't say anything. At that point began sucking her ...
> 
> Anyway, I am not stopping my investigations. It was just before thanksgiving that I confronted her with my suspicions and her seeming sense of "guilt" after I brought it up, and subsequent increased attentiveness towards me, along with my gut feeling, (however tainted by my past devastating cuckolding) puts me on guard.
> 
> Is this worth continued investigations, or should I admit I was wrong, perhaps if there was an affair of some sort, it is over.


She was home on V-day and the weekend because the OM is married and unavailable to her.

The underwear thing is a HUGE red stop sign. This doesn't make sense.

Sorry if I'm off base but it an objective view.


----------



## Ever-Man

dogman said:


> She was home on V-day and the weekend because the OM is married and unavailable to her.
> 
> The underwear thing is a HUGE red stop sign. This doesn't make sense.
> 
> Sorry if I'm off base but it an objective view.


This is a possibility. Since I suspect she is seeing either her old b-friend who is not married, or a new senior VP in her office whose wife lives in another city, I suspect both men would be available on Valentines. But yes, if she is seeing a married man in her office, this is a possibility.


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## Ever-Man

Chris989 said:


> Firstly, I'm really pleased you had a great valentine's day and her initial reaction to your being there sounds nigh on perfect!
> 
> If your wife valued your relationship she *would* dress up - even if only occasionally.
> 
> I can't recall if you have children or not, but if you don't have kids then why the heck wouldn't she want to surprise you with sexy lingerie sometimes?


Thanks for the measured response, there is a lot of good that happened over the weekend, and, my energy should be in improving my relationship, spending more time with my wife, but the question remains, why does she not wear sexy lingerie for me anymore. 

Something is up, but my focus should be on improving my marriage as much as "investigating".

Perhaps the investigating, obsessive thoughts about infidelity, are getting in the way of our relationship.


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## Ever-Man

alte Dame said:


> It seems like you remain in limbo unfortunately. Your Valentines Day was heartening, but the lingerie issue remains troubling. So, you can't find real peace, which is completely understandable. If I were in your shoes, I would just stay vigilant and see how things develop.


Thanks, I appreciate that you feel my concerns are understandable, yes, though, still in limbo. 

I fear I will never resolve it satisfactorily, and will have to eventually give it up.


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## Jasel

Ever-Man said:


> Thanks for the measured response, there is a lot of good that happened over the weekend, and, my energy should be in improving my relationship, spending more time with my wife, but the question remains, why does she not wear sexy lingerie for me anymore.
> 
> Something is up, but my focus should be on improving my marriage as much as "investigating".
> 
> Perhaps the investigating, obsessive thoughts about infidelity, are getting in the way of our relationship.


If you can afford it I would suggest going the PI route. There are a lot of red flags but no concrete proof that you've found and you don't seem to be getting anywhere one way or the other. Maybe because there's nothing to find? Possible, but doubtful.

How can you work on improving things when you're not even completely sure what is going on in your marriage? When you have a better idea of what is acutally going on, or not going on, in your marriage THEN you work off of that. But you can't work on things flying blind.

Like it's been said here time and time again. You can't "nice" your wife out of an affair/fog/cheating. You can't "romance" her out either. If she IS screwing around on you and you turn up the "Mr. Nice Guy" act that will most likely not improve things. Which is why you need to find out one way or the other what's going on before you commit to anything.


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## terrence4159

going to be worse days Ever so hang in there. a PI once said when you get to the point you think your other is having an affair 85% of the time they are. just my .02 cents. VARing her house a good idea put one in the bed room


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## VFW

I am not convinced on the infidelity in this case. If all you have is the panties issue, then I would not obsess. As men, we are very visual creatures, so I don't know if she understands that the sexual attire adds to the experience. You may want to convey that to her. The bottom line naturally not if she wears the panties, but the quality of the intimacy.

As for the polygraph, it is a very effective tool for what it is designed to do. If you want to know the answer to a Yes/No question, than it would be virtually impossible for her to deceive the test. Example...."have you ever had sex with another man during your marriage?" Questions like ..."do you still have feelings for him?" are very subjective and will not give you good results. The key is to get a good examiner to perform the test. Meet with him in advance so that you can develop a good test.


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## keko

terrence4159 said:


> going to be worse days Ever so hang in there. a PI once said when you get to the point you think your other is having an affair 85% of the time they are. just my .02 cents. VARing her house a good idea put one in the bed room


Yep.

Buy a few Voice Activated Recorders then hide one in her car and then a few inside the house, near where she takes her calls.

Within a few days you'll have an answer for yourself.


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## EntirelyDifferent

Ever-Man said:


> THen I ask why doesn't she wear them, and she says because they are itchy, then I ask, "why do you keep buying them then", and she didn't say anything.


I just got through reading through your entire thread, a thought I had (that I don't think I've seen mentioned, but sorry if it has)... Is it possible SHE doesn't buy them all herself? If she IS having an affair, maybe she's receiving them as gifts. That could explain why she has so many pairs that she says are uncomfortable and why some still have tags on them... She didn't pick them out herself. 



Ever-Man said:


> Is this worth continued investigations, or should I admit I was wrong, perhaps if there was an affair of some sort, it is over.


If you still have a gut feeling that something is 'off', I think you're wise to trust it and continue investigations for a little while.


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## dogman

It's really strange that she wears them to work but says they are uncomfortable. It's even more strange that she has worn them, and you've mentioned them several times to her to the point of suspicion and yet she still has not worn them for you.

This is way strange. I would think she would get the hint and wear them for you. Let's be real if she puts them on they only stay on for a little while till you take them off her. How hard could it be to just wear the darn things. 

Unless ....it's too weird for her to wear them for both you and the OM. She has a boundary and this messes it up for her.

Maybe... Sorry, but I have a problem with this panty thing.


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## Ever-Man

dogman said:


> It's really strange that she wears them to work but says they are uncomfortable. It's even more strange that she has worn them, and you've mentioned them several times to her to the point of suspicion and yet she still has not worn them for you.
> 
> This is way strange. I would think she would get the hint and wear them for you. Let's be real if she puts them on they only stay on for a little while till you take them off her. How hard could it be to just wear the darn things.
> 
> Unless ....it's too weird for her to wear them for both you and the OM. She has a boundary and this messes it up for her.
> 
> Maybe... Sorry, but I have a problem with this panty thing.


Thanks all for the insights, it really helps to get other ideas, the power of group thinking!!

I agree that I cannot "nice guy" her back into my arms if she is torn and engaged in an affair, if this affair is even happening. I do believe it may not, at all, but I can't ignore the red flags and look for answers. 

Back to the lingerie, I have speculated that someone bought them for her, my first suspicions that an affair was happening was 2 years ago, a few weeks after Valentines, when we also did not meet on THE DAY (like last week), and I was starting to get paranoid, that is when I first looked in the underwear drawer and noticed all the lingerie, in particular 3 pairs that are VALENTINES related, and I freaked. They were from Gap Body. During Valentines Gap sells Valentines related themed underwear in packs of 3. She never wore these for me, and several months later I noticed she had THROWN THEM IN THE GARBAGE.
I understand it would be hard to wear underwear bought for you by a horny affair partner with your husband. 

Scenario: affair partner buys her underwear for V-day, she later throws them out because: they have a fight?, she feels guilty, she is concerned about getting caught?

At least this is what I put together in my head. 

Given my investigations and gut feeling, I suspect something was going on in that time period (2 years ago) and at the time I really turned on the charm and felt her come back to me, emotionally. 

Given recent investigations I do not believe anything is happening now, but knowing what I know about affairs, it is an ongoing event, and it could flare up again, if there even is/was one. 

This is why I do need some kind of certainty. I almost feel 85% something had happened, (fell 45% it still could be happening. low level) especially given her reaction to my confrontation 3 months ago (telling her I suspect she WAS having an affair, giving her my evidence) and her subsequent positive change in behavior towards me, and her fishing for my thoughts regarding cheating.

It all adds up, but without SOLID EVIDENCE, I could also be 100% wrong and just jumping to the worst conclusions regarding all disparate pieces of evidence. 

So hard!!!!!!!!!


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## Chaparral

She may have bought the V day panties for you. You did not show. Epic fail. More women, tens of thousands, sign up for cheating web sites the day after valentines and the day after mothers day than any other time.
Not making a big deal of these days, no matter what the wife/girfiend says is total failure. You see how she reacted whdn you showed up. Sounds like you have mised the boat on romancing your wife.


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## Ever-Man

chapparal said:


> She may have bought the V day panties for you. You did not show. Epic fail. More women, tens of thousands, sign up for cheating web sites the day after valentines and the day after mothers day than any other time.
> Not making a big deal of these days, no matter what the wife/girfiend says is total failure. You see how she reacted whdn you showed up. Sounds like you have mised the boat on romancing your wife.


Possibly, but it was the wife that suggested we not do anything for Valentines day. At this point I had already sensed a distance and pre-occupation on her part, not fully "there" when she is with me, or when we are intimate. 

THe minimizing of V-Day could be out of guilt, or out of a lack-of-interest in being romantic with one's spouse; it is clearly an avoidance of intimacy. last week, when we had dinner the night before Valentines Day, she was not fully present, seemed pre-occupied, and this was my biggest clue/concern, that she was thinking about the real V-Day, and the person she really wanted to see. 

I think when someone is having an affair, it is hard for them to hide their ambiguity at screwing 2 people, and and lying to their spouse. This is why "gut instinct" or behavioral changes can be the first clue something is up. 

If she bought the underwear for me and had plans for a romantic night, it was not showing in her behavior. I wish it was.


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## mahike

The A may be over or on the back burner. Is the VP at work out of town? What about the old BF? where is he? Keep your guard up and keep up with the VAR. Something will turn up I am sure


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## Mike11

Is there a way for you to track her trough a GPS ? 
can you install a Key logger on her PC ? 

if not the only rout for you at this moment would be a PI 
and from what I am reading you describing it is most likely very well underground or on low burner, you must keep investigating unfortunately, your described red flags are very strong


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## keko

Which phone is she using?


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## Ever-Man

keko said:


> Which phone is she using?


She has a boiler plate Samsung with a Sprint plan. I would to love to set the GPS on her phone, though I have no idea how. It is her plan, so I have no access to passwords. 

Ideally I could position something in her purse that would record and be a GPS, however, I am not sure I can be that invasive of her privacy.


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## Ever-Man

Mike11 said:


> Is there a way for you to track her trough a GPS ?
> can you install a Key logger on her PC ?
> 
> if not the only rout for you at this moment would be a PI
> and from what I am reading you describing it is most likely very well underground or on low burner, you must keep investigating unfortunately, your described red flags are very strong


Yes, several strong red flags, zero HARD evidence, truth can go either way, but I should keep trying, for now.


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## keko

Ever-Man said:


> She has a boiler plate Samsung with a Sprint plan. I would to love to set the GPS on her phone, though I have no idea how. It is her plan, so I have no access to passwords.
> 
> Ideally I could position something in her purse that would record and be a GPS, however, I am not sure I can be that invasive of her privacy.


There are "pen" shaped VAR's and small real-time GPS that you can hide it in her car. Unless you're running around screaming that you're stalking your wife, then there is nothing to worry about.

As I said before start with a simple VAR in her car and a few around the house. If you don't get anything then you can invest in other methods, but almost always a VAR will catch a cheater.


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## Ever-Man

Greetings to any TAM members who have been following my situations, I decided to share this with the "collective wisdom" of TAM and get insights.

I had been backing off my suspicions regarding my wife's fidelity until she mentioned that she was going to dye her hair jet black (she dyes her hair due to some gray), which hit me as another "red flag". Also, I placed a flash drive on the table and she looked at it suspiciously saying "what's this", as if implying it was a listening device, that seemed a "red flag" too. Given I confronted her with my suspicions about her fidelity over 3 months ago in November, if this is still on her mind, does her heightened awareness regarding my suspicions indicate she is "on guard" I am surveiling her, and wouldn't only a guilty person have these concerns? 

I am 35% believing something is still up (was 80%) so I have hatched a plan focusing on the "sexy panties" and letting them lead me to the suspected "affair". I catalogued the collection and noted that there are 35 "sexy panties" to 15 "granny panties". My objective is to ascertain if she if wearing these behind my back. 

One complication, she is starting to wear the "sexy" panties for me on nights we know we will be intimate, since I mentioned it a few times. This concerns me a bit since she might be "tipped off" by my suspicions, and gone underground with the presumed affair.

Has anyone had experience with extended surveliance plans in order to catch a very careful spouses affair. How long did it take to find HARD EVIDENCE?


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## tom67

Pen var was $99 stick it in her purse put other vars in car and her house jmo.


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## tom67

Only other expensive option is a pi.


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## tom67

What really sets you back is the 2 household situation but if it works for you oh wait...


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## SofaKingWeToddId

I know they are not 100%, but have you thought any more on having her take a poly? Or at least ask and see her reaction?


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## Ever-Man

tom67 said:


> What really sets you back is the 2 household situation but if it works for you oh wait...


Most of the affairs on these sites are between couples who live together. It is not the living situation, but the committment of the partners. Many married couples are taken away from eachother by jobs, and other responsibilities. For some reason, in my case, there is a group of TAMers who seem to think I deserve to get cheated on. Mind you, I am living the same arrangement as my wife, and I am not cheating. 

Also, I really enjoy TAMers who use members personal details to insult them, shows real sensitivity. Thanks for being an .....


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## Ever-Man

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> I know they are not 100%, but have you thought any more on having her take a poly? Or at least ask and see her reaction?


I am not going to mention anything of the affair or my suspicions until after I do surveliance. I already feel she is "tipped off", and this both makes me suspicious, and concerned the affair has gone underground, if there is one. 

After several weeks of blanket surveliance, if I find nothing I might bring up the poly then, see where that leads.


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## tom67

Ever-Man said:


> Most of the affairs on these sites are between couples who live together. It is not the living situation, but the committment of the partners. Many married couples are taken away from eachother by jobs, and other responsibilities. For some reason, in my case, there is a group of TAMers who seem to think I deserve to get cheated on. Mind you, I am living the same arrangement as my wife, and I am not cheating.
> 
> Also, I really enjoy TAMers who use members personal details to insult them, shows real sensitivity. Thanks for being an .....


Good point sorry still try the vars you may get what you need.


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## Ever-Man

THe VAR I am using (found nothing yet) only stays on for about 18 hrs. Did you find a good brand that would stay on longer?


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## SofaKingWeToddId

Ever-Man said:


> I am not going to mention anything of the affair or my suspicions until after I do surveliance. I already feel she is "tipped off", and this both makes me suspicious, and concerned the affair has gone underground, if there is one.
> 
> After several weeks of blanket surveliance, if I find nothing I might bring up the poly then, see where that leads.


Seems reasonable. Just don't wait too long. You need to strike while the iron is hot.


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## 3putt

Ever-Man said:


> THe VAR I am using (found nothing yet) only stays on for about 18 hrs. Did you find a good brand that would stay on longer?


Digital Voice Recorders - Best Buy


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## keko

Ever-Man said:


> THe VAR I am using (found nothing yet) only stays on for about 18 hrs. Did you find a good brand that would stay on longer?


Could be a battery problem. 

If not did you make it only voice activated and not on 100% of the time?


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## weightlifter

RDMU had awesome results from a sony.

(From RDMU) Sony ICD-PX312 purchased at Best Buy for about $50. Hes gone for DAYS and comes back with near full batteries.


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