# sexual favors in a marriage. Bad idea?



## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

Are sexual favors a bad idea in a marriage? My W wants sex maybe once a month, never masturbates, and almost never initiates (true for a decade). So I hope for the occasional hand-job, and in exchange I give a massage. Problem is, even that "trade" isn't working out because she A) just wants a backrub because her back hurts, but does not want to please me because she's tired, or B) tells me she would rather engage in sex but "has a headache" or "didn't take a shower", but wouldn't mind the backrub. I usually get either sex or the handjob after three weeks of asking if such-and-such would be good for...anything. I don't get angry, or try to make her feel guilty. I just ask. I can't help but look disappointed when my sex-life consists mainly of releasing my sexual tension myself most of the time. When she DOES have sex I can make her cum several times in a row and she enjoys it. It may be she only likes sex of any sort when it's mutual and she's feeling horny (a rare thing). 

Thoughts? I thought a low-libido wife might be a bit more...um...generous. Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong? I really don't know.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

balor said:


> I don't get angry, or try to make her feel guilty. I just ask. I can't help but look disappointed when my sex-life consists mainly of releasing my sexual tension myself most of the time. When she DOES have sex I can make her cum several times in a row and she enjoys it. It may be she only likes sex of any sort when it's mutual and she's feeling horny (a rare thing).
> 
> Thoughts? I thought a low-libido wife might be a bit more...um...generous. Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong? I really don't know.


 You are just not showing your anger, BUT you have to be getting at least somewhat resentful & tiring of this lack -from her end. Just speaking from my own past, with a husband who also didnt show upset-ness in almost any way (though we had sex once a week faithfully), he always wanted more but NEVER really pushed at all, or ever let me know it was REALLY bothering him- he simply NEVER talked to me about it. I find this out later (how this hurt him deeply) when I start asking questions about our past. 

I think she has a right to know you are hurting !! Dont be soooo nice about this, seriously, maybe she is less generous cause , for her, she just doesn't "get it", some women just dont get horny and we take for granted that our partner must feel the same. Please clue her in on HOW YOU ARE FEELING ABOUT THIS. 

You don't seem the type who will lay blame at her feet, which will probably be helpful. Make it about how much you are craving her, and "needing" her in this way, wont she want to hear her husband is desperately desiring her?


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are just not showing your anger, BUT you have to be getting at least somewhat resentful & tiring of this lack -from her end.


Oh, yes. I do tell her I'm "sexually frustrated", and that I'd be happy with _anything_ as little as once a week. She said recently that she feels she is always disappointing me, not in bed, but because it's never the right time (for all the stereotypical reasons). I know she doesn't like to please me unless I'm pleasing her, so unless she's in the mood, she doesn't do me any favors. If she does, she calls it a "special treat". I think it more of a reasonable expectation for a guy, not a personal favor. You're right though, I never said it's starting to make me really pissed, because that would just start an argument. 



> I think she has a right to know you are hurting !! Dont be soooo nice about this, seriously, maybe she is less generous cause , for her, she just doesn't "get it", some women just dont get horny and we take for granted that our partner must feel the same. Please clue her in on HOW YOU ARE FEELING ABOUT THIS.


She knows I'm frustrated. But I don't think she knows I'm angry. I tried bringing it out in therapy, but the therapist kept centering on "other expressions" of love as being more important. In other words, the (male) therapist downplayed my desire for more frequent sex. He threw away my proverbial paddle. 



> You don't seem the type who will lay blame at her feet, which will probably be helpful. Make it about how much you are craving her, and "needing" her in this way, wont she want to hear her husband is desperately desiring her?


She'd say, in so many words something along the lines of "of course I desire you! I'm just not always in the mood, and I'd rather we have sex together than just please you". 

There's another thing (just a thought): her last pregnancy was very difficult. Our son is special needs. She once thought she'd want three children, but now we both know that's not desired. She wants me to get a vasectomy. Actually intercourse has decreased in general since my second child was born, replaced more commonly with mutual masturbation (about once a month). She refuses to use the pill (because of it's health risks) and would rather not use condoms. Maybe I ought to get that vasectomy to reduce the fear of another pregnancy? That may increase spontaneous sex for sure. But vasectomy, I've read, sometimes goes wrong and needs to be reversed, so it worries me.


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

So here I am 12/20/2012, and our sex is now once every few months. 

I read my initial post here and nothing has really changed, only gotten worse. I've started watching porn and I've stopped initiating because I'm tired of being turned down. She is overweight and constantly complaining and in a bad mood. I'm in good shape and upbeat, so maybe that annoys her?


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I notice this is a very old post and you have come back with nothing changed. You just find alternatives.
First of all youre not alone. Not that that helps.
There is definitely more wrong in your marriage than just the sex although I think with the sex 'better' so will everything else.
If you are able to leave and threatened to, would that make your wife change. I am sure youll agree that with all the 'alternatives' the real thing is better. Whatever you may read here sex is a duty not a favor. Why do you think she doesnt want sex. Is it to punish you or does it hurt her. Or doesnt she like giving away something for 'nothing'. Dont you 'thank' her enough afterwards.


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## Voyager (May 23, 2011)

Balor,

I've been down this road. It did not end well. If I had known then what I know now...

Are you still seeing the counselor? And was it couples counseling? I think your counselor dismissing your concerns was inappropriate. In general, I think couples counseling is a good thing. But there are a lot of crap therapists out there. Having been through several now I would not accept one who minimizes my concerns like that. Ultimately, the role of couples counseling is to help the two of you understand each others concerns. If it doesn't do that there's absolutely no reason not to fire the counselor and find another. A good counselor can help.

Don't worry too much about the vasectomy. While there are risks, they are minimal. I put off having one for 10 years even though neither my wife or I ever wanted children. Eventually, my wife used it as an excuse not to have sex. It wasn't the only reason but it did provide a plausible excuse--one that I could have (and should have) removed years ago. If you truly no longer want any more children, have it done. It's not as big a deal as I had made it out to be in my head. A few embarrassing moments and a couple days of discomfort. 

But, I suspect the real issue here is your wife's self-image. As men, we tend to see the issue in terms of lack of sex. But that's the symptom, not the problem. Does your wife feel sexy? Doesn't sound like it. Is she open to introspection and changing herself? Either through self-help or with the help of a therapist? Has she reached the point where she really wants to change things in her life? If not, I don't know that there's really much you can do other than letting her know that this may be a deal breaker for you. Set your boundaries as to what you will and will not accept in your relationship. I don't like the phrase 'man up' but you do need to realize that this is your relationship, too, and if it doesn't work for you then you have the option of getting out of it.

Hopefully, your wife does want to work on her self image and she just needs enough of a reason (and a lot of support and patience on your part) to overcome the inertia of letting things slide. For many years my wife and I followed that path. If we had known early on that a marriage requires a lot of work by both people to keep it healthy we could have avoided an awful lot of pain. 

Keep trying and good luck.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I really didn't realize or know how important sex or oral was to a man. I for the life of me can not stomach semen! Gosh, it took me 12 years of marriage to figure that out. I found out by reading articles online and this website. My husband was doing everything for me and always put my needs before his. In our early marriage, he would ask for oral, I tried, but I couldn't find a way in my brain to enjoy it back then. What I realize now I wasn't emotionally connected to him like he was to me. We were still having sex regularly until I broke my neck almost 4 years ago. When that happened our sex life went down the tubes, I was and still am going through hell living in severe pain 24/7. I've just learned to accept it and move on with life the best I can.

Anyways, my drive sorta kicked in full gear earlier this year, this is when we were headed off to a sexless marriage. Months went by and no sex, no asking, nothing. That's when I started reading how to make your husband happy. Oral was included. I purchased a few flavored lubes and I actually found one I really like. It's a water based by ID Juicy Lube mint flavor. As long as my husband does not cum in my mouth, he can have oral a few times a week(we have to be careful due to my neck), but we usually do oral as foreplay. Since then I actually LOVE giving oral. He does wash right before. I'm trying to talk him into manscaping his balls, so there is no hair. He loves them to be sucked too and they are soooo soft. My husband and I are now both connected emotionally and physically equally. My husband is the only man I've ever performed oral on.

Since my husband was doing everything in the world for me and meeting my needs, woke me up to meet his needs as well. I love to keep things interesting and I will throw in new surprises every month or two. I do wish my husband would of spoke up a long time ago. He is very kind and patient. He never wants to hurt my feelings and having sex talks is not easy for him. That is all changed in the last few months. We freely talk about sex and everything else. It helps that we flirt, communicate well, cuddle, touch, ect...

Good luck, I hope your wife comes around like I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

I want to address the vasectomy. Did you ever give that much thought? I was in a position like your wife. I was told if I got pregnant and carried it to term, it would kill me. I was terrified of sex and I refused the pill because of health reasons, I couldn't get fixed because of health risks. Do not underestimate the fear of an unwanted pregnancy. You did not address this. My husband immediately agreed to get fixed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nicbrownn80 (Mar 20, 2011)

I WAS in the same boat. We did it once a week, and she always asked for a message to turn her on. Around 80 percent of the time she feel asleep. 

I don't call a message for a HJ an exchange. Possibly if she said help me clean the house so I have for more to take it worth your while might be. 

Anytime your wife is tired give her a message bc your love her. Don't ask for something back. If you know she had a hard day just start don't wait for her to ask. Since when your tired, you don't get energy from a message. 

Hopefully she will do the same thing to you but instead of a message what ever your heart desires. Another thing I realized that happens explain how for a man the coloration of sex and feeling loved is very close. Maybe a book can help explain it better.

Hope I helped.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You should look at www.marriedmansexlife.com for some great information on how to get more sex.

It sounds like you're serving your wife more than she's serving you. The solution to that is not to serve her even more. If you give her 3 massages for every HJ you get, you shouldn't give her 3 massages and clean the house. Change the pitch. Tell her that a massage will lead to sex. Every time. If she doesn't want it, that's fine. But you're not there to be her servant. Women don't screw the servants.

Start running Athol's MAP to improve yourself. There's a good chance that your wife will start desiring you more. I think Athol's approach is the best way (but unfortunately slowest at months), to make your wife desire you.

A faster, riskier, method is to lower the thermostat in your relationship. You are hot and your wife is cold. So lower your temperature to match your wife's. If she wants you to be warmer, she will have to be warmer as well. Stop doing more for your wife than she's doing for you. If she asks about it, let her know that you're tired of loving her more than she loves you. If she tells you she loves you, tell her back. If she asks you to show her by doing something for her, decline. She's not willing to exhibit her love for you, so that will now be a two-way street. The danger here is that your wife may believe that marriage should be a husband serving a wife. If you don't wean her off that belief slowly, but suddenly and transparently stop serving her, she may decide that you're no longer of use and she can find another servant/husband to replace you.

Good luck.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Did you ever get the vasectomy? Yah, unwanted pregnancy fears can be a huge killer of libido, especially in light of the fact you already have a special needs child. She may resent you for not being concerned enough about her health and well-being and that of your family and not taking this aspect of intimacy seriously. Believe me, if she's made to feel like the responsibility rests entirely on her shoulders, then abstinence may be the fool-proof method that she chooses. 

And, that brings up the question of what kind of help do you have for caring for that child? Is she primarily responsible for their care? It sounds like a super stressful situation.

As to your question about you being upbeat annoying her, she sounds like she may be depressed and overstressed. Has she ever been evaluated for depression?

Best wishes.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

There is a lot going on here. 

1) Wife's fear of pregnancy and your dismissal of a vasectomy
2) Your therapists dismissal of your need for sex
3) Your wife's weight impacting how she feels about her body/desireability
4) Your anger/resentment at your wife that has not been expressed, or has been expressed passively, which leads to HER mistrust and resentment of you
5) Special needs child which requires a LOT of time and is stressful

There are a lot of issues that are impacting your sex life. My first suggestion is to find a different therapist (look for a psychologist) who can help address these issues and get you on the right path.

You should want to give your wife a backrub because you love her, not because it means sex for you. Your wife should want to make love to you because she loves you, not because it means a backrub for her. This tit for tat $hit is a marriage killer.


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## Lucy79 (Dec 29, 2011)

For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the idea of you trying to do something to please or benefit your wife in exchange for sex. 

I think to some extent this happens in many relationships, on a conscious or unconscious level.

I also think your wife is being unfair, and that you should be able to expect sex more often. As I have posted in a thread I started in this forum, after some negotiation we have to decided to schedule sex. It's a compromise which is fair to both of us.


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Orgasms are a dime a dozen. Maybe put something into this trade arrangement so that she gets some sort of benefit out of it. A new pair of shoes? or a shirt, or something, i dunno. If she wants what she is entitled to in this arrangement, she will go the full mile.


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## johniori1 (Dec 28, 2011)

So here I am 12/20/2011, and our sex is now once every few months.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Cherry said:


> My husband immediately agreed to get fixed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol, this term always makes me think its broken.

vasectomy is the greatest thing in a committed relationship.
had mine done when my youngest turned 1.
enjoyed it ever since, at least when i was allowed to


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> enjoyed it ever since, at least when i was allowed to


hahaha. She uses you like a semenless piece of meat. too funy.
j/k


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## happy thats its over (Jan 2, 2012)

i feel your pain i was with a woman for 10 years she was over weight wanted sex maybe once a month but only after i bugged her every night i tried the favor game but got nothing from it.
so after years of trying to make her happy enough to want me i left (and trust me i tried everything), she didnt want me to leave and promised to changed but i heard that old song a hundred times before. after i left i found out it was all a game over power how much she could control me, because when i told her i wanted to leave all she wanted was sex but it was too little too late. and now a year and a half later im with a wonderful woman and things couldnt be better and im left to wonder did i waste 10 years of my life for nothing to try and make something work that was bound to fail.

she knows your not happy but does nothing about it, she would of found a way to fix her problem by now if she wanted it fixed. im sure you love your wife like i did mine but when only one side wants to fix things it a lost cause get out now befor you spend your life wishing you had because in the end all your hard work will be for nothing


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

happy thats its over said:


> i feel your pain i was with a woman for 10 years she was over weight wanted sex maybe once a month but only after i bugged her every night i tried the favor game but got nothing from it.
> so after years of trying to make her happy enough to want me i left (and trust me i tried everything), she didnt want me to leave and promised to changed but i heard that old song a hundred times before. after i left i found out it was all a game over power how much she could control me, because when i told her i wanted to leave all she wanted was sex but it was too little too late. and now a year and a half later im with a wonderful woman and things couldnt be better and im left to wonder did i waste 10 years of my life for nothing to try and make something work that was bound to fail.
> 
> she knows your not happy but does nothing about it, she would of found a way to fix her problem by now if she wanted it fixed. im sure you love your wife like i did mine but when only one side wants to fix things it a lost cause get out now befor you spend your life wishing you had because in the end all your hard work will be for nothing


I personally think this is an assumption that the wife has done nothing to help... There are a few questions the OP has not addressed from other posters to jump to this conclusion. 

I'm still very curious about the vasectomy.. that issue can be a very serious one as it relates to sex. And another poster inquired about the help OP is devoting to his special needs children.

Based on the OP's update, it does appear he's given up on his wife and has settled for a different outlet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

I think sexual favors in a marriage would be a bad habit to get into. It will only lead to resentment - which is a love-killer.

Humans have sexual NEEDS - in addition to merely 'wants'. Your needs should be addressed in your marriage without some type of transactional thought process. 

Have you read the book - His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley? It would be a good book for you to begin with. Look at her needs before you even bring the book to her. Can you do something differently? THEN... can/will she?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Janie said:


> I think sexual favors in a marriage would be a bad habit to get into. It will only lead to resentment - which is a love-killer.
> 
> Humans have sexual NEEDS - in addition to merely 'wants'. Your needs should be addressed in your marriage without some type of transactional thought process.
> 
> Have you read the book - His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley? It would be a good book for you to begin with. Look at her needs before you even bring the book to her. Can you do something differently? THEN... can/will she?


If you're at this stage a book isn't going to help you. The other partner probably won't agree with the content and then tell you the paper's too hard to even wipe your arse on.

Half of these problems come about, IMO, because the idea that people of either sex have sexual needs, is considered to be total garbage by a lot of people of both sexes. They think that sex is like going to the cinema. And no book ever written is going to change their minds.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

*Half of these problems come about, IMO, because the idea that people of either sex have sexual needs, is considered to be total garbage by a lot of people of both sexes. They think that sex is like going to the cinema. And no book ever written is going to change their minds*
I doubt if thats true. There are usually other reasons for refusing. Never because they think the other person doesnt 'really' need it.
It can be selfishness, punishment, hatred, nastiness, or 'gloating' on the other persons 'misfortune' of not having sex. Enjoying the saying no watching the other 'squirm' more than the sex.
I speak from my own experience.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

accept said:


> ons for refusing. Never because they think the other person doesnt 'really' need it.


I know _plenty_ of people who think that their spouse should absolutely be able to "do without".



> It can be selfishness, punishment, hatred, nastiness, or 'gloating' on the other persons 'misfortune' of not having sex. Enjoying the saying no watching the other 'squirm' more than the sex.
> I speak from my own experience.


But this is exactly right too.

And reading a book won't cure any of those either, will it?


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

Feeling that sex is part of a role, a duty, is always a big part of the problem. Letting go of that notion allows one to focus on some of the underlying problems in life and marriage. An infrequent sex life is typically symptomatic of life's bigger problems. This is what I've learned so far. I got the vasectomy years ago. Still married, and accepted she is simply "Low Desire" comparatively. Kids are older now and doing well, so that stress has lessened. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

balor said:


> Are sexual favors a bad idea in a marriage? My W wants sex maybe once a month, never masturbates, and almost never initiates (true for a decade). So I hope for the occasional hand-job, and in exchange I give a massage. Problem is, even that "trade" isn't working out because she A) just wants a backrub because her back hurts, but does not want to please me because she's tired, or B) tells me she would rather engage in sex but "has a headache" or "didn't take a shower", but wouldn't mind the backrub. I usually get either sex or the handjob after three weeks of asking if such-and-such would be good for...anything. I don't get angry, or try to make her feel guilty. I just ask. I can't help but look disappointed when my sex-life consists mainly of releasing my sexual tension myself most of the time. When she DOES have sex I can make her cum several times in a row and she enjoys it. It may be she only likes sex of any sort when it's mutual and she's feeling horny (a rare thing).
> 
> Thoughts? I thought a low-libido wife might be a bit more...um...generous. Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong? I really don't know.


My thoughts? As a woman who likes sex about once a month... Um, that's nonsense. Either you haven't been CLEAR to your wife that you have a sex drive and need release more often (how hard is a hand job when you're not feeling sexy, seriously?) and she just does not understand.

OR, she's got some resentments in the relationship that you're not aware of that are killing her desire to make you happy.

I would have an honest conversation with her. It that's hard for you two, write her a letter/email.

But if she can expect you to rub her back but cry headache when you'd be happy(ish) with a hand job, either she does not understand what you're going through or does not care. Either way, getting to the bottom of it could do your marriage (and sex life) a world of good.

Also, as a woman with low drive, I really ENJOY getting my husband turned on and pleasing him if I don't have to have actual sex when I don't want it. I mean if she's willing to sit in traffic jams to get somewhere, willing to do dishes, willing to fold laundry ...how much more effort does it take to sexually satisfy your spouse? I bet she just does not understand how different the drive feels to you.


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## Idun (Jul 30, 2011)

I made a suggestion to my hubby, a bouquet of flowers = a guaranteed blow job within 24hrs. I told him I'd be happy with a $20 bunch (minimum), I just want flowers more often (as I'm sure he wants no-strings=attached blow jobs too). But he went and got a really expensive bunch because he hates cheap flowers that don't have any scent. YES he got his blow job  I though it was a good idea as we both get more of what we want, but he doesn't like it because you should just do those kind of romantic things for each other 'just because'. I agree, in a perfect world. But in a busy, 3 kids, running a business world sometimes it's good to know that getting flowers will result in a hot little perk - no?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Idun said:


> I made a suggestion to my hubby, a bouquet of flowers = a guaranteed blow job within 24hrs. I told him I'd be happy with a $20 bunch (minimum), I just want flowers more often (as I'm sure he wants no-strings=attached blow jobs too). But he went and got a really expensive bunch because he hates cheap flowers that don't have any scent. YES he got his blow job  I though it was a good idea as we both get more of what we want, but he doesn't like it because you should just do those kind of romantic things for each other 'just because'. I agree, in a perfect world. But in a busy, 3 kids, running a business world sometimes it's good to know that getting flowers will result in a hot little perk - no?


Here's the thing - many, many people don't/can't/won't equate sexual favours with non-sexual favours. It's apples and oranges. Flowers or a massage does not = BJ or HJ in return. It's just not on the radar.

Whether it's a conscious thing (ie. they don't want to feel "bought") or subconscious (ie. one thing does not register as equitable in return for the other) - doesn't really matter.

And it doesn't matter which train of thought that person has - the second the other person brings it up ("I did this, this and that, what do I get in return?"), all of a sudden it's unpalatable to the first party.

My point is that MOST people who already do not equate one thing with the other likely will never do so, at least completely willingly.

In other words, I believe you are either completely willing to "trade" or you're not, know what I mean? On rare occasions, you may be able to have the other person see it your way and/or they may change their tune on their own. But generally speaking, if partner "A" does not already "trade" needs for needs, then the likelihood of them doing so happily in the future is probably slim.

*ETA - I don't necessarily think this is an indicator of selfishness, either. It can be, I suppose, but not always. I have no trouble trading sexual favours for something non-sexual (which is rare in this house, but does happen from time to time). My wife won't (can't, doesn't, whatever). But she will definitely trade other things, other needs, wants, etc. Just not sex, or sexual favours.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Here's the other thing, periodically people respond to 3 year old posts.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> My thoughts? As a woman who likes sex about once a month... Um, that's nonsense. Either you haven't been CLEAR to your wife that you have a sex drive and need release more often (how hard is a hand job when you're not feeling sexy, seriously?) and she just does not understand.
> 
> OR, she's got some resentments in the relationship that you're not aware of that are killing her desire to make you happy.
> 
> ...



:iagree:

Very good post! What most do not realize is how, "I really ENJOY getting my husband turned on and pleasing him if I don't have to have actual sex when I don't want it" can actually be a good thing and beneficial to both:

• makes your husband feel like you care about him.
• likely boosts your self confidence to feel him respond to your touch. 

So many people use the analogy of eating ice cream, and sometimes an LD partner is not in the mood for said ice cream as much as their HD partner. BUT if done lovingly, respectfully, and with gratitude between both parties an LD spouse will actually relish with joy to prepare an ice cream for their partner even though they are not in the mood to eat any.

In reality I have never liked to drink coffee, nor do I think I ever will except on rare occasions. But I actually enjoy making my wife a good cappuccino just they way she likes it and seeing the smile on her face when she drinks it. If my wife insisted that I had to enjoy coffee with her every time she has one, I would eventually resent making them and begin avoiding anything that has to do with coffee at all costs.

Badsanta


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I used to be a constant asker, briber, trade this for that, and then one day realized how insulting this was and stopped. I've felt more like a man just doing without, than being a dog waiting for his "treat".


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

anonmd said:


> Here's the other thing, periodically people respond to 3 year old posts.


OP is still here, and is consistently updating this thread. How old it is, is irrelevant, as long as he is still here and his problem remains, no?

but i do hate when it's a true zombie thread


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

balor said:


> Thoughts? I thought a low-libido wife might be a bit more...um...generous. Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong? I really don't know.


Oh hell yes, you are wrong....You are also on her "Flimsy excuse list"...An LD woman will lie to get out of sex, just like a cheating wife will lie to her betrayed husband....

I guess they are both a kind of cheating....


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

There are several thoughts running through my mind on this topic of sexual favors, duty sex, unconditional love, gifts of one's body and sexuality.

The first thought is if a sexual favor is an explicit or alternately a covert contract? If I bring home flowers in hopes of getting laid, is that a covert contract as Glover would say in his book NMMNG? Probably. I think it is unless I have no expectation she will do anything in return or she has told me that she wants flowers and we have an explicit contract where she told me if you bring me flowers then You will get sex. I am not sure I like that kind of quid pro quo.

On the other hand, let's look at Chapmans 5 LL. Say my wife's love languages are Presents and acts of service. This example is not my wife. Let's pretend that as an act of love the wife gives the husband a coupon book, that includes bj's, hj's, PIV in different positions, as a true act of love on Valentine's day. Would handing your wife one of those coupons (assuming she is in the mode and still loves you) and asking her to redeem the coupon asking for a sexual favor?

Lets say her primary love language is an act of service. Each week to show you how much she loves you she declares each Wednesday to be Steak and BJ night where she demonstrates her love for you. Would accepting her act of service be duty sex on her part or an enthusiastic demonstration of her love for you in her love language? I think it would be an act of her loving you because she loves you.

How about duty sex? Let's say my wife and I agree to schedule sex on Wednesday night and Saturday morning. Wednesday rolls around and she has a headache. Still she understands that an agreement is an agreement and lays on her back and thinks of England. Doesn't sound every enticing to me, sort of a clear duty sex thing. Still if she took a couple aspirin, read an erotic book, then jumped my bones with enthusiasm, I would probably be pretty smitten.

One of the hard things I had to learn in recovering from an SSM was that my wife had a lower desire than I did. Sometimes that meant that if I was to get the sex I really needed, she would need to have sex when she really would have preferred not to. What became clear to us was that how she had sex and her attitude was critical. Our Sex Therapist explained to me that sometimes, my wife just really didn't want to be bothered with an orgasm and sometimes she really did enjoy giving me the gift of her body, holding me in her arms while I had an orgasm and then cuddle and smile at me knowing that she was her husband's good lover and her body could thrill me.


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

sixty-eight said:


> OP is still here, and is consistently updating this thread. How old it is, is irrelevant, as long as he is still here and his problem remains, no?
> 
> but i do hate when it's a true zombie thread


I didn't delete my original post and bury the thread because I thought some of the replies have been well thought out and interesting. I hadn't read what I wrote originally in a long time, and it's interesting to revisit those thoughts years later.
For the record I decided the quid pro quo stuff was not working for either of us because I don't want any favors. I want real desire, not favors. 

The problem is not quite the same. I lowered my expectations, and changed my focus. I've tried to focus more on my kids and career than sex. We've had some form of sex maybe once every month and a half, and for some people that is perfectly ok. Not ok for me, but I am not going to beg. These days it feels more like being friends with occasional benefits.


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

This. Very true. No book will help unless she is the one to read it because she is not the one with the complaint. 



Sawney Beane said:


> If you're at this stage a book isn't going to help you. The other partner probably won't agree with the content and then tell you the paper's too hard to even wipe your arse on.
> 
> Half of these problems come about, IMO, because the idea that people of either sex have sexual needs, is considered to be total garbage by a lot of people of both sexes. They think that sex is like going to the cinema. And no book ever written is going to change their minds.


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

I think there is truth to this, at least in my personal experience. I know my wife enjoys things more when it's mutual and simultaneous. Even "taking turns" in bed never really interested her much. I remember when we were first dating (almost 20 years ago) even a BJ was preferred as part of a 69. Rarely did she just work on me without mutal action. No gymnastics these days though. 



alexm said:


> Generally speaking, if partner "A" does not already "trade" needs for needs, then the likelihood of them doing so happily in the future is probably slim.


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

I did suggest scheduling sex, switching away from the idea of trade, and she agreed at first. I tried to play it up as a fun game and have other things set up for us to do like a full "date night". But then she didn't feel like it when the time came. I guess it felt like an obligation despite my efforts. 

I am very much aware that allowing these pattern to visibly upset me only deepens the feedback loop and make it even less likely to evolve into anything positive. 



badsanta said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Very good post! What most do not realize is how, "I really ENJOY getting my husband turned on and pleasing him if I don't have to have actual sex when I don't want it" can actually be a good thing and beneficial to both


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

badsanta said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Very good post! What most do not realize is how, "I really ENJOY getting my husband turned on and pleasing him if I don't have to have actual sex when I don't want it" can actually be a good thing and beneficial to both:
> 
> ...


You cappuccino example is perfect. You don't have to love coffee yourself to love being able to please your wife with a perfect cup! But if you were required to drink the coffee also to make her happy, then you would just avoid the whole situation and resent her for not respecting how you feel about coffee.

I have a friend who is on medicine that has killed her sex drive. Her husband is a 1 - 3 times a day kinda guy. She's still willing to have sex and please him, but he keeps wanting her to orgasm, and she's like - not only is that not happening today, I don't even want it to happen. (They are finding their groove though.)

What I think HD people need to understand if they're with a lower drive person is that if you push them to do something they don't want to do enough, you will create an aversion in them where they start to dread it and eventually can't tolerate it.

I think understanding what motivates your partner's sex drive is a big part of the battle. It's not fair for a man to expect his wife to meet his need for frequent sex if he's not willing to meet her need for emotional connection. But it's also not fair for a wife to ignore her husband's need for sex just because she doesn't feel the same way.

This is an excellent article on the subject that explains so much:
The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

woundedwarrior said:


> I used to be a constant asker, briber, trade this for that, and then one day realized how insulting this was and stopped. I've felt more like a man just doing without, than being a dog waiting for his "treat".


The thing with the idea to trade flowers for a BJ though, is that what probably works for the woman (who suggested it) is what the flowers represent. Flowers are a symbol of affection -- they are without purpose other than to be enjoyed for their beauty/scent/etc. 

Yes, she specified flowers, but her husband had to spent time, energy, money getting them for her. That says "I care about you enough to do this for you even though I really don't get what the big deal is with flowers."

That probably made her feel special and cared for and much more inclined to extend her time and energy to give her husband something special that he wanted that she didn't see what the big deal was all about.

The fact that she came up with the idea probably made it fun for her whereas if her husband had said "If I get you flowers, then will you give me head?" Would had probably been a big turn off (she's not a *****!!!!).

If you aren't getting much sex from your wife and it seems like she can't be bothered to even try to please you when she's not 100% in the mood - read this article. I just posted it to someone else. It's excellent:

How men can get more sex from their wives:
The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

balor said:


> I think there is truth to this, at least in my personal experience. I know my wife enjoys things more when it's mutual and simultaneous. Even "taking turns" in bed never really interested her much. I remember when we were first dating (almost 20 years ago) even a BJ was preferred as part of a 69. Rarely did she just work on me without mutal action. No gymnastics these days though.


It's a difficult situation to be in, for sure. Basically, you've established that your wife does not have a high drive (or perhaps no drive, really), whereas you have a normal drive. She's fine with once every 4-6 weeks, you're fine with once or twice a week. "Fine", being relative, of course.

What I see here, unfortunately, is a wife who is unwilling to meet you even half way, really. I have doubts about whether this is even sex-related for her (as in hang ups, for example).

To me, this type of situation is the female equivalent of "my husband leaves the toilet seat up, his socks lying around, and never buys me flowers". It's something that has no relevance to one party, but means all the world to the other, yet they don't "get it", and why it's so important to the other.

It doesn't mean they don't love you, it just means that they think these particular things are irrelevant, or minor, therefore you should, too, despite your protests to the contrary. And often, it takes hell and high water for them to even begin to understand what it means to you. It's extremely difficult to have someone see things the same way you do, especially when it's established that the issue at hand is minor or irrelevant to the one party.

At the end of the day, the issue is more about one spouse listening and attempting to understand the other's needs. Not "wants", needs. When one spouse is unwilling or unable to do so, it becomes a huge issue. In this case, your wife has no interest in understanding your needs, and that is unfortunate and frustrating.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

balor said:


> I didn't delete my original post and bury the thread because I thought some of the replies have been well thought out and interesting. I hadn't read what I wrote originally in a long time, and it's interesting to revisit those thoughts years later.
> For the record I decided the quid pro quo stuff was not working for either of us because I don't want any favors. *I want real desire, not favors. *
> 
> The problem is not quite the same. I lowered my expectations, and changed my focus. I've tried to focus more on my kids and career than sex. *We've had some form of sex maybe once every month and a half, *and for some people that is perfectly ok. Not ok for me, but I am not going to beg. These days it feels more like being friends with occasional benefits.


First you have to respect that what ever desires she has belong to her and that hopefully she can feel respected and loved enough to share those with you. In many relationships there is a fine line between a woman having sincere desire to please her husband or feeling stressed that she is allowing herself to be used. The difference between one or the other is if she is confident enough to know that she attributes to your arousal, or a lack of confidence to make her feel like her husband's arousal has been driven by porn and she happens to be the only available vagina for release. 

Second she has to respect your desires. It will help her by you making sure she knows that your desire for her is attributed to her. You also have to be willing to share you desire with her and allow her to feel in control of it instead of you using it to control her. Eventually she will reciprocate once she regains her confidence. Allow her to respond to your desire however she wants, and do not make her feel inadequate if she responds in a different way than what you were expecting as her sexuality is very different than yours. 

A good example of something to try is to ask her to spend some time together. Let her know you are aroused and ask her to give you a HJ. If for some reason she does not want to, explain that you are not going to pressure her for sex and that feeling sexual around her and feeling that she cares about that helps you build a desired emotional connection with her. 

Badsanta


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## balor (Sep 12, 2010)

badsanta said:


> First you have to respect that what ever desires she has belong to her and that hopefully she can feel respected and loved enough to share those with you. In many relationships there is a fine line between a woman having sincere desire to please her husband or feeling stressed that she is allowing herself to be used. The difference between one or the other is if she is confident enough to know that she attributes to your arousal, or a lack of confidence to make her feel like her husband's arousal has been driven by porn and she happens to be the only available vagina for release.


That is so true. The fastest way to get that reaction is to get angry when she's not in the mood. As many articles I've read state, the typical woman does not want a sex act, but rather a sex "event", which is within the context of a fully loving realtionship. This context can be difficult to set up when (as in my situation) there isn't even enough time or money to go on a date without the children in tow. 





> Second she has to respect your desires. It will help her by you making sure she knows that your desire for her is attributed to her. You also have to be willing to share you desire with her and allow her to feel in control of it instead of you using it to control her. Eventually she will reciprocate once she regains her confidence. Allow her to respond to your desire however she wants, and do not make her feel inadequate if she responds in a different way than what you were expecting as her sexuality is very different than yours.


I've learned that the more expectation of sex enters into the equation the less likely it is to happen. Marriage itself brings some very unreasonable expectations into the mix, like a bunch of unspoken culturally influenced rules that can quickly squash the very romance that led up to the legal bond. 





> A good example of something to try is to ask her to spend some time together. Let her know you are aroused and ask her to give you a HJ. If for some reason she does not want to, explain that you are not going to pressure her for sex and that feeling sexual around her and feeling that she cares about that helps you build a desired emotional connection with her.



And I'd be willing to bet that would work after a weekend of no-strings-attached time together. Sometimes I underestimate that. We get so busy and work so hard, but for me the hustle has no impact on my sex drive. For her it kills it. We need quality time together beyond sitting down to watch a few shows at night before bed. 

Years ago, when I first posted what I did, I had strong expectations and a lot of resentment. But now I believe it was those feelings that created a negative feedback loop that I'm only now beginning to reverse.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

balor said:


> Years ago, when I first posted what I did, I had strong expectations and a lot of resentment. But now I believe it was those feelings that created a negative feedback loop that I'm only now beginning to reverse.


I am pretty sure we have all been there, even some women on this forum that throw temper tantrums with their husbands when they are not getting what they want. 

I am still in a habit of harassing my wife throughout the day by hugging her and grabbing her butt. She will look at me and roll her eyes, and then I'll snap my fingers and tell her I turned everything off and that I instantly went as limp as a noodle. Her immediate reaction is to grab my package to see if a) I am lying or b) if she can turn me into a liar. Either way it lets her feel in control, and I like to have my package inspected! 

Badsanta


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## woodyh (Oct 23, 2015)

I know this an old thread, but the original question was about trading a massage for a handjob. My wife is definitely lower drive than me, married many years. I give her a massage pretty often for either sex or a HJ. Works for us.

I also trade work sometimes for a "quickie". She get out of some work and I get some sex.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

balor said:


> Are sexual favors a bad idea in a marriage? My W wants sex maybe once a month, never masturbates, and almost never initiates (true for a decade). So I hope for the occasional hand-job, and in exchange I give a massage. Problem is, even that "trade" isn't working out because she A) just wants a backrub because her back hurts, but does not want to please me because she's tired, or B) tells me she would rather engage in sex but "has a headache" or "didn't take a shower", but wouldn't mind the backrub. I usually get either sex or the handjob after three weeks of asking if such-and-such would be good for...anything. I don't get angry, or try to make her feel guilty. I just ask. I can't help but look disappointed when my sex-life consists mainly of releasing my sexual tension myself most of the time. When she DOES have sex I can make her cum several times in a row and she enjoys it. It may be she only likes sex of any sort when it's mutual and she's feeling horny (a rare thing).
> 
> Thoughts? I thought a low-libido wife might be a bit more...um...generous. Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong? I really don't know.




Dude, did you marry my wife???:grin2:

My wife is very similar to yours.

A happy marriage is for the wife to take care of her man's needs (sexual, physical) and the rest follows.

Reason why ladies lose interest in sex.....wedding cake.:laugh:


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