# Damaged by Institute in Basic Youth Conflict (Bill Gothard) or the Purity movement?



## Casual Observer

My wife had previously insisted to therapists that she'd not had close encounters with purity culture before we met, but a discovery two weeks ago of her training manual from Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Youth Conflict suddenly brought back a flood of memories. She's now gone through the book "Pure" by Linda Kay Klein and the passages below resonated strongly with her. Did any other Christian women get messed up by conflict between their religious values and sexuality?



> -Females report significantly higher sex guilt than males (and) sex guilt from the first sexual experience is predictive of higher sex anxiety, lower sexual efficacy, and lower sexual satisfaction. So, females, in particular, who have strong religious beliefs and are engaging in premarital sex, are having unsatisfactory sex, they have high anxiety about it, and don't feel that they are capable of changing their situation.
> 
> Lastly, the relationship between sex guilt and sex anxiety, sexual efficacy, and sexual satisfaction, doesn't diminish over time; it gets stronger....This is not a recipe for young women to embark on a fulfilling relationship with their partner and we predict could be an indicator of further sexual problems and relationship issues.
> 
> To summarize, first, the researchers are finding that purity teachings do not meaningfully delay sex. Second, they are finding that they do increase shame, especially among females. And third, they report that this increased shame is leading to higher levels of sexual anxiety, lower levels of sexual pleasure, and the feeling among those experiencing shame that they are stuck feeling this way forever. Oh, and it doesn't get better with time. ... it gets worse!
> 
> -As opposed to a bat mitzvah or a quinceaii.era, evangelicals ought to have a funeral at the beginning of girls' adolescence. When you're a girl you're allowed to be who you are. But as you get older, you have to put that person to death. Because after puberty, you're dirty.





> -''Oh! That's something my counselor told me too! She said that I was a_there's a fancy word for it- that I had Dissociative Personality Disorder. It's the idea that you have two selves; you're not integrated; you're split in two. There's your shiny self that Jesus redeemed-that person goes to church and works with the kids-but the person you are when drinking yourself into a stupor while watching 24, that self is not in church."
> 
> ''Hmm," I grumbled.
> 
> ''What?'' ''Again, that label seems to ignore context," I said. ''Hiding parts of yourself from a community that punishes people for showing those parts seems completely rational to me."
> 
> Jo paused and thought for a moment. ''I've never thought about the difference between thinking that the problem is something that's innate in me versus a response to something outside of me. Even now, up until right now, I have been under the assumption that this is something thing that's in me, that I have done to myself, not something that was done to me. That's sort of mind-blowing. I really have to process that. That might change things for me.





> - The lack of therapeutic understanding around the damage that growing up in the purity movement can do comes up often in my interviews. Christian therapists are often too deeply embedded in their religious worldview to guide us, and secular therapists, who are generally tragically under-trained in both religion and sexuality, aren't always much help either. My counselor, she's wonderful, but she doesn't have any tools to help me. Both she and I have said that. I love her. She's amazing. She's been enormously positive and helpful. But she's not equipped to help me. I'm not blaming her. She just isn't. My whole background, being raised in the evangelical world, she will listen completely, and I can tell she's intently trying to understand. She just has absolutely no experience at all with anything I'm saying. She'll go into my romantic relationships; she'll go into my relationship with my parents; she'll go into everything except the spiritual part of it. And when I bring it up, I will talk about it in depth and she has absolutely nothing critical to open up in that vein, and that's really hard.
> 
> Some therapists have told me they believe the lack of training they receive on religion is due to a long-standing divide between religion and psychology. This divide results in some therapists being so dismissive of religion that they won't even touch it.
> 
> Others, meanwhile, are so afraid of being seen as antireligious, recognizing that religion and spirituality can also be healing tools for people, that they refuse to consider that religion can be anything other than good for a person. This is puzzling to me. It is well documented that religious communities function as extended families, and we all know every extended family looks different-froin one another, and on to the next. Sometimes our families affect us positively, sometimes negatively, and most often, both at the saine time.





> - The first time my now-boyfriend Sebastian and I tried to have sex, things did not go well. My head said it was fine for me to have sex with the long-term boyfriend I loved. Yet every aspect of the actual attempt triggered a physical reaction: the removal of each individual item of clothing made me tremble, the introduction of the condom made my head flame, and the kissing that I knew was meant to lead somewhere this time, not just be what it was, sent a shudder through me that screamed: You. Are. Bad.
> 
> Before I had decided that I was open to the possibility of having sex before marriage, sexual exploration didn't terrify me in the same way that it started to once the loss of that all-important ''virgin'' label was a legitimate possibility.





> - Of all the ways I imagined the sky might fall, pregnancy seemed the most likely. My irrational fear could only be quelled with a store-bought test. I could breathe easy again when that beautiful minus sign proved to me that, for now, no one would find out what I'd almost_done. A common adage in neurobiology, Hebb's axiom, states: ''neurons that fire together wire together." In other words, if two neural circuits-such as those for sexuality and shame-are fired simultaneously often enough, eventually firing the neural circuit for one will automatically activate the neural circuit for the other.
> 
> I believe that the merger of sex and shame that I experienced is just such a brain trap. Even if we eventually come to understand that our sexual nature is natural, normal, and healthy, we may find that our upbringing in purity culture, which has dedifferentiated shame and sex over years of messaging, observation, and experience, ensures that our brains fire those sha:me neurons when the subject of our sexuality arises, with or without our permission, trapping us in a shame spiral.
> 
> The first time an adolescent girl feels shame about her sexual nature, it may just be because she knows she is ''supposed'' to feel this way. But if this same girl continues to feel shame when having sexual thoughts or feelings over years, repeatedly firing those neurons at the same time, sex and shame will eventually become very difficult to disconnect in her brain. Her neural pathways have been paved, physical and mental habits formed, metaphors for how sex will change her internalized, methods for fighting off sexual feelings made habitual, and on and on.





> -The summer after my freshman year in college, my boyfriend and I, who I had sex with when I was fifteen, broke up. I quickly started to become afraid: ''Wait, if I ever get into another relationship, I am going to have to tell them that I am not a virgin. And how am I going to do that?'' That conversation seemed so insurmountable and humiliating for me. I couldn't even imagine it. I didn't want to have to say to someone, ''I'm dirty and used and not pure. Will you accept me?'' I thought, ''I need to get back together with him because he is the one that I did this with and we need to be together, right?''





> -We're rolling around naked; he would be rubbing his penis on my vagina but not in it; I would have orgasms from it. But I still, in my brain, I could be like, ''We're not having sex." I would still be a virgin. And you know what happened ... an inch, quarter-inch, whatever, would start to go in and I would recoil and freak out


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11 Comments


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## Diana7

Not really. I knew that God says things for very good reasons so its up to us as to whether we listen or not. 
I also know that He created us to have and enjoy sex.


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## Casual Observer

Diana7 said:


> Not really. I knew that God says things for very good reasons so its up to us as to whether we listen or not.
> I also know that He created us to have and enjoy sex.


The fact that you're here puts you in a very different category than someone who is a member of an American Evangelical church. You are comfortable among unbelievers and engage in conversations that would be grounds for purging from church membership. The fact that you are actually reaching out and trying to bridge gaps, explain the mission of Christ, that he died for all people, not just a select few, that redemption is the key, not punishment for sins... that wouldn't fly.

I am thankful for your participation and efforts to make mainstream Christianity something worth looking into. You go, girl!


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## jonty30

Diana7 said:


> Not really. I knew that God says things for very good reasons so its up to us as to whether we listen or not.
> I also know that He created us to have and enjoy sex.


The Jewish Faith would agree with you.


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## Casual Observer

jonty30 said:


> The Jewish Faith would agree with you.


As would much of Christianity. The messaging from people like Bill Gothard is all about women having to dress modestly and act properly to keep men from lust. Little responsibility for men to control their own selves; women have been, after all, temptresses since Eve. It’s ridiculous. The guy has even questioned if women who don’t scream or fight back we’re actually raped.


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## Diana7

Casual Observer said:


> As would much of Christianity. The messaging from people like Bill Gothard is all about women having to dress modestly and act properly to keep men from lust. Little responsibility for men to control their own selves; women have been, after all, temptresses since Eve. It’s ridiculous. The guy has even questioned if women who don’t scream or fight back we’re actually raped.


I do think that men and women each have a part to play in helping the other.


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## Diana7

Casual Observer said:


> The fact that you're here puts you in a very different category than someone who is a member of an American Evangelical church. You are comfortable among unbelievers and engage in conversations that would be grounds for purging from church membership. The fact that you are actually reaching out and trying to bridge gaps, explain the mission of Christ, that he died for all people, not just a select few, that redemption is the key, not punishment for sins... that wouldn't fly.
> 
> I am thankful for your participation and efforts to make mainstream Christianity something worth looking into. You go, girl!


Thanks. I really appreciate that. 😊


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## LATERILUS79

What you've written here makes a lot of sense. I've had a few personal conversations here with a few members on these issues (or similar). 

While my perspective is from the man side, I can only imagine how bad it is from the woman's. It downright disgusts me how children growing up to be adults are treated in some churches. I grew up as catholic. I will never step foot in one of their churches again. Last time I was in one was for my Wedding. Figured catholicism owed me - especially after thr priest said "we go through these marriage classes to make sure we don't come across people that just want to use a pretty church for their wedding." 🤣 which of course is exactly what I was doing. After the way they treated me growing up, yeah, they owed me. 

But the shame is real. Seriously. It didn't cause me sexual anxiety in bed, but it caused anxiety around anything that could be related back to sex. The catholic church did a screw job on my head that took me years to get over. 

For example, I never told my parents if I was dating anyone in high school. When I met my wife in college, I finally told them I was dating her after 6 months. I had crippling anxiety for them to know that I was seeing someone. I sure as hell wouldn't bring her to church. Last thing I needed were more judgemental eyes outside of my parents, and all catholics I know are very forward. They will ask straight up if you are having premarital sex and then shame you into the ground once they know the truth. Doesn't matter that I've only had sex with one person my entire life and I am married to her, I'm still a terrible sinner for sleeping with her prior to marriage. 

My head was so bad that I had a ton of anxiety at my own wedding. Why? Because all the catholics in attendance would now know for sure I'd be having sex. They make the subject so taboo and so dirty that you can't help but feel shame for even thinking about it. I couldn't get the thought out of my head that my parents know for sure that I would be having sex that night after my wedding and even though it would be "legit" by their standards and even know they knew my wife and I were having sex prior to marriage, my head was already screwed up by that point. It disgusts me what they did in my community. It pulled me away from God for many years. Not God's fault. It was the fault of the catholics and my upbringing. 

Thankfully, I could block out those thoughts once I was in the bedroom. I had plenty of other stimuli to distract me from the anxiety. 🤣 however, what you described here and the thought process of girls growing up to be women and the anxiety they deal with.... I can somewhat understand where they are coming from and it breaks my heart.


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## Diana7

LATERILUS79 said:


> What you've written here makes a lot of sense. I've had a few personal conversations here with a few members on these issues (or similar).
> 
> While my perspective is from the man side, I can only imagine how bad it is from the woman's. It downright disgusts me how children growing up to be adults are treated in some churches. I grew up as catholic. I will never step foot in one of their churches again. Last time I was in one was for my Wedding. Figured catholicism owed me - especially after thr priest said "we go through these marriage classes to make sure we don't come across people that just want to use a pretty church for their wedding." 🤣 which of course is exactly what I was doing. After the way they treated me growing up, yeah, they owed me.
> 
> But the shame is real. Seriously. It didn't cause me sexual anxiety in bed, but it caused anxiety around anything that could be related back to sex. The catholic church did a screw job on my head that took me years to get over.
> 
> For example, I never told my parents if I was dating anyone in high school. When I met my wife in college, I finally told them I was dating her after 6 months. I had crippling anxiety for them to know that I was seeing someone. I sure as hell wouldn't bring her to church. Last thing I needed were more judgemental eyes outside of my parents, and all catholics I know are very forward. They will ask straight up if you are having premarital sex and then shame you into the ground once they know the truth. Doesn't matter that I've only had sex with one person my entire life and I am married to her, I'm still a terrible sinner for sleeping with her prior to marriage.
> 
> My head was so bad that I had a ton of anxiety at my own wedding. Why? Because all the catholics in attendance would now know for sure I'd be having sex. They make the subject so taboo and so dirty that you can't help but feel shame for even thinking about it. I couldn't get the thought out of my head that my parents know for sure that I would be having sex that night after my wedding and even though it would be "legit" by their standards and even know they knew my wife and I were having sex prior to marriage, my head was already screwed up by that point. It disgusts me what they did in my community. It pulled me away from God for many years. Not God's fault. It was the fault of the catholics and my upbringing.
> 
> Thankfully, I could block out those thoughts once I was in the bedroom. I had plenty of other stimuli to distract me from the anxiety. 🤣 however, what you described here and the thought process of girls growing up to be women and the anxiety they deal with.... I can somewhat understand where they are coming from and it breaks my heart.


The RC church are heavily into guilt. Especially when it comes to sex. It's good that you realise it's not God who is like that.


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## TexasMom1216

Casual Observer said:


> As would much of Christianity. The messaging from people like Bill Gothard is all about women having to dress modestly and act properly to keep men from lust. Little responsibility for men to control their own selves; women have been, after all,* temptresses since Eve*. It’s ridiculous. *The guy has even questioned if women who don’t scream or fight back we’re actually raped*.


This viewpoint IS Biblical. Women are blamed for all sin, man was thrown out of paradise because he didn't properly restrain and subdue his woman. It is only rape if a man hears the woman cry out and sees her struggle, otherwise it is assumed to be consensual. So if the man holds his hand over her mouth or drags her far away, it's consensual. As twisted as that sounds, that is what they believe. Scary stuff.


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## LATERILUS79

Diana7 said:


> The RC church are heavily into guilt. Especially when it comes to sex. It's good that you realise it's not God who is like that.


It wasn’t easy to come to that conclusion. It took years of introspection. It is hard to let go, especially as I see that church continue its massive mistakes to this day (at least in the US. I don’t have experience elsewhere).

it’ll never cease to amaze me that the RC church (and some other Christian churches) are all about increasing their numbers and spreading the word, but then do things like this that only pushes more people away. They don’t seem to get it. I was always in a state of confusion throughout my years of schooling (12 straight years of Catholic school). Why teach Jesus’ words of “treat others the way you want to be treated”, then in the next breath shame, guilt and punish children for realizing they are human beings and that God did indeed grant us sex as something to be enjoyed and cherished? Then they wonder why they have so many couples that come back to the church with problems.

speaking of which, the Catholics make their members go through marriage classes prior to getting married. I was in utter shock when I had to go through this. My wife and I were 27 when we had to go on a weekend retreat to learn how to be married. I had to bite my tongue the whole time we were there as I couldn’t stand listening to the constant shaming and guilt tactics they put on all of us…. But I was old enough to understand by that point what they were doing. The ones that I felt sorry for were the 17 and 18 year olds there. Yes, children. Children filled to the brim
With hormones to the point that I swear I could see them constantly crossing legs and moving anxiously around they were so desperate to have sex. Please note, the RC church also considers masturbation a sin.

so you have 17 and 18 year olds that have been shamed into oblivion to not have any sort of outlet so they pair off at a very young age to get married as soon as possible so they can finally have sex. It was blantantly obvious what was going on with the teenagers there.


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## TexasMom1216

LATERILUS79 said:


> so you have 17 and 18 year olds that have been shamed into oblivion to not have any sort of outlet so they pair off at a very young age to get married as soon as possible so they can finally have sex. It was blantantly obvious what was going on with the teenagers there.


To me, this is so horrible. Imagine making a lifelong commitment just so you can finally get some relief. Being so knotted up with hormones with zero outlet that you make a decision about who to spend your life with based on teenaged hormones. There is ZERO way no one in the church realizes how bad this is for people. They just don't care about the people, all they care about is rosters and donations and CONTROL.


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## LATERILUS79

TexasMom1218 said:


> To me, this is so horrible. Imagine making a lifelong commitment just so you can finally get some relief. Being so knotted up with hormones with zero outlet that you make a decision about who to spend your life with based on teenaged hormones. There is ZERO way no one in the church realizes how bad this is for people. They just don't care about the people, all they care about is rosters and donations and CONTROL.


I see it the exact same way. I think it is a form of control. Sex is only taught as a way to produce them more members. I was disgusted.

I wish I had a video camera on the last day. I had to laugh. If I didn't, it would just be too sad. 

The final couple of hours we were all told to sit in a circle and everyone was to write down a question about sex on piece of paper and throw it in a hat. Then the hat would go around the room and each member of each couple would take out one of the questions to read to the group. That person could either try to answer the question or defer to the priest or the two older couples that volunteered to help out for the weekend.

It was a shytshow to say the least. I knew what questions were coming from the 17 and 18 year olds. Why? Because I had the same questions. No life experience and being taught my entire life "do this or do that or else you are going to hell". 

For example, one of the guys pulls out a question that reads, "Is it ok to give or receive oral sex.". I'm already smirking at this point. I felt sorry for this guy. He was around my age. Not a catholic. Not a christian (his soon to be wife was). His answer had me rolling. Thankfully everyone else laughed too so that I wasn't the only one. He says, "Um. I have no idea how to answer this question. In fact, I have no idea why I'm here.". Preach, brother.

So the question goes to the priest who said the same answer to every question, "What do you all think?". Thanks pal. Really helpful, but then again, this guy has never been in a relationship in his entire life so what is he going to say?

So, one of the kids is raising his hand saying, "OH, oh, oh, Father! Pick me! I know the answer!!!!". Yep. I'm not kidding. It went down just like that. Then the kid says, "My fiance and I have been talking with our buddy married couple a lot to learn about sex (I'm not surprised here). They told us that it is ok to have oral sex on occasion but no orgasms allowed. All orgasms should be internal for the possibility of a baby.". 

First and foremost, these kids obviously weren't taught that there are two people (a man AND a woman) in a married couple. Clearly, they were only taught that a man could receive oral sex and not the woman. Secondly, his answer lined up with everything I ever learned when I was a kid. gotta make sure the possibility of a baby being created happens every single time. Like you mentioned Texasmom, increase that roster. 

My wife could feel me stirring as my anger was boiling over. I could feel her nails digging into my thigh as she grabbed it harder. Eventually she had to whisper to me, "You keep that mouth of yours shut!!!! We are so close to getting that stupid signed piece of paper that allows us to get married in the church!!!!". 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 

I would love to know how many of those 17 and 18 year old couples in my class made it. How many of them fell victim to infidelity or some other incompatability issue over the years. 




So yeah, the articles above that @Casual Observer posted make perfect sense to me. I cannot speak to the female experience. For all I know it is worse for women from a mental abuse standpoint, but I can't speak to that. I can only say that I fully understand the sexual anxiety of growing up in an environment like that and I'm living proof that it affects young boys as well. Girls or boys, no one should have to go through this. I spent many years of my childhood and teen years absolutely hating myself. I thought I was a terrible person. Unloveable. A sinner. I was most certainly going to hell. Somehow, my family and the church just thinks after teaching kids these things that it all magically goes away once you are an adult. Yeah.... no. It does for some. Didn't for me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

jonty30 said:


> The Jewish Faith would agree with you.


Let them.

Some people don't like pecan pie either but that's ok too.


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## TexasMom1216

LATERILUS79 said:


> I see it the exact same way. I think it is a form of control. Sex is only taught as a way to produce them more members. I was disgusted.


It is absolutely about control. And money, and power. The more guilt you feel, the more times you go to confession, the more times you walk past that donations plate. 



LATERILUS79 said:


> First and foremost, these kids obviously weren't taught that there are two people (a man AND a woman) in a married couple. Clearly, they were only taught that a man could receive oral sex and not the woman.


 Because for the church, marriage is for and about the convenience of the man. There is no partnership. There is the human being, created in God's image and for his glory, and his submissive beast, here for his convenience and use. It's awful and makes me really sad.


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## Diana7

TexasMom1216 said:


> TexasMom1216 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is absolutely about control. And money, and power. The more guilt you feel, the more times you go to confession, the more times you walk past that donations plate.
> 
> 
> Because for the church, marriage is for and about the convenience of the man. There is no partnership. There is the human being, created in God's image and for his glory, and his submissive beast, here for his convenience and use. It's awful and makes me really sad.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be sad if it were true.
Click to expand...


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## Fly With Me

I am only just beginning to realise how messed up I am by it. I grew up in the UK with religious conservative Christian parents and the Elim pentecostal church. I don't blame them per se. They gave the advice that they thought was best. But essentially I made my husband wait because I knew that if we waited sex would be amazing because that was God's way. 

We messed about a lot and I had what I now realise was orgasms but at the time I didn't because I was reading descriptions of full body orgasms online and didn't connect them with the very short clitoral sneeze orgasms I was having. I was TERRIFIED of having penetrative intercourse and what that would mean. Sex before marriage was literally at the top of my list of things to never ever do. I couldn't even use a tampon and I never touched myself. Red flags everywhere if me and my husband had only known. 

After marriage I had vaginismus for months and then after that sex was nearly always painful for me until after I had kids. It has absolutely destroyed my husband. I only just found out he was posting on the marriage bed forum about once a year desperately asking for help.To my shame I gave up after a while and long before him and just resigned myself to willing sex. I thought because we didn't have a sexless marriage I was a good wife. Noone ever taught me what guys crave and need from their women and how far I was falling short to the point that my husband says I might as well have been a sex doll. Except a sex doll wouldn't have winced and frowned :-/ :-/ :-/

I only started to regularly enjoy sex after kids and only had desire for sex rather than willigness for sex about four years ago. And we are only just now starting to have the kind of sex we both dreamed about when we got married 15 years ago and it has taken a lot of trauma and a major marriage crisis to get us here.

I remember my pastor telling me sex would probaby not be as great as I was expecting and his wife telling me sex isn't that enjoyable for women but it's important we do it. In hindsight I find that absolutely atrocious but they meant well and were simply speaking from their own experience and the experience persumably of the rest of the congregation :-/

I am determined to not pass this on to our kids and encourage them to know themselvesand their bodies intimately before they get married. There should be basic guidance out there that tells women and men that if they don't love themselves and are totally disconnected from their bodies to the point they can't even insert a tampon a ring and a vow isn't going to magically make things incredible in the bedroom.

You can't just tell women sex is bad, bad, bad and the worst thing they can possibly do and then expect to flick a switch on the wedding day and suddenly they turn from madonna to *****. It doesn't work like that. You need to tell woman they are madonna and the ***** and both parts of them are valid and acceptable and beautiful. 

I don't think it's all the church. I do think there is a societal message that porn star/ prostitute sex is not for "nice" woman and that men shouldn't expect that. Rather than telling woman that they can dig deep into all the parts of themselves and find the parts that LOVE sex and set them free. No one tells women that if you deeply love yourself and your husband you will thoroughly enjoy all the "dirty" things he wants to do.

The other piece is the whole "nice guy" thing - which totally kills female attraction. 

But yeah... I think the church has a lot to answer for. It is far too afraid of women's sexuality. 

The other big piece is the shame and keeping up appearances. I told NOONE about our problems I was so deeply embarassed and ashamed. I literally only told anyone else about my story beginning of last year. So there is no opportunity for any real wisdom or help to get to women like me. We are not looking for help and we are desperate to keep it hidden even from ourselves. Until you have experienced true sexual ecstasy and intimacy you don't know what you are missing so you don't care. And guys tend to not communicate the depth of the pain they are experiencing until they are at the point of walking away. Add that to the church and cultural messages and it's a recipe for hidden devestation and dead bedrooms not to mention adultery, porn addiction and divorce.


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## Diana7

Fly With Me said:


> I am only just beginning to realise how messed up I am by it. I grew up in the UK with religious conservative Christian parents and the Elim pentecostal church. I don't blame them per se. They gave the advice that they thought was best. But essentially I made my husband wait because I knew that if we waited sex would be amazing because that was God's way.
> 
> We messed about a lot and I had what I now realise was orgasms but at the time I didn't because I was reading descriptions of full body orgasms online and didn't connect them with the very short clitoral sneeze orgasms I was having. I was TERRIFIED of having penetrative intercourse and what that would mean. Sex before marriage was literally at the top of my list of things to never ever do. I couldn't even use a tampon and I never touched myself. Red flags everywhere if me and my husband had only known.
> 
> After marriage I had vaginismus for months and then after that sex was nearly always painful for me until after I had kids. It has absolutely destroyed my husband. I only just found out he was posting on the marriage bed forum about once a year desperately asking for help.To my shame I gave up after a while and long before him and just resigned myself to willing sex. I thought because we didn't have a sexless marriage I was a good wife. Noone ever taught me what guys crave and need from their women and how far I was falling short to the point that my husband says I might as well have been a sex doll. Except a sex doll wouldn't have winced and frowned :-/ :-/ :-/
> 
> I only started to regularly enjoy sex after kids and only had desire for sex rather than willigness for sex about four years ago. And we are only just now starting to have the kind of sex we both dreamed about when we got married 15 years ago and it has taken a lot of trauma and a major marriage crisis to get us here.
> 
> I remember my pastor telling me sex would probaby not be as great as I was expecting and his wife telling me sex isn't that enjoyable for women but it's important we do it. In hindsight I find that absolutely atrocious but they meant well and were simply speaking from their own experience and the experience persumably of the rest of the congregation :-/
> 
> I am determined to not pass this on to our kids and encourage them to know themselvesand their bodies intimately before they get married. There should be basic guidance out there that tells women and men that if they don't love themselves and are totally disconnected from their bodies to the point they can't even insert a tampon a ring and a vow isn't going to magically make things incredible in the bedroom.
> 
> You can't just tell women sex is bad, bad, bad and the worst thing they can possibly do and then expect to flick a switch on the wedding day and suddenly they turn from madonna to ***. It doesn't work like that. You need to tell woman they are madonna and the *** and both parts of them are valid and acceptable and beautiful.
> 
> I don't think it's all the church. I do think there is a societal message that porn star/ prostitute sex is not for "nice" woman and that men shouldn't expect that. Rather than telling woman that they can dig deep into all the parts of themselves and find the parts that LOVE sex and set them free. No one tells women that if you deeply love yourself and your husband you will thoroughly enjoy all the "dirty" things he wants to do.
> 
> The other piece is the whole "nice guy" thing - which totally kills female attraction.
> 
> But yeah... I think the church has a lot to answer for. It is far too afraid of women's sexuality.
> 
> The other big piece is the shame and keeping up appearances. I told NOONE about our problems I was so deeply embarassed and ashamed. I literally only told anyone else about my story beginning of last year. So there is no opportunity for any real wisdom or help to get to women like me. We are not looking for help and we are desperate to keep it hidden even from ourselves. Until you have experienced true sexual ecstasy and intimacy you don't know what you are missing so you don't care. And guys tend to not communicate the depth of the pain they are experiencing until they are at the point of walking away. Add that to the church and cultural messages and it's a recipe for hidden devestation and dead bedrooms not to mention adultery, porn addiction and divorce.


Thankfully many churches are not like that. I heard a really good sermon by a nice pastor a few years ago about how important lots of sex is in marriage to help prevent a temptation to cheat. Many churches are open about marriage and sex now, and there are also countless great Christians books and courses and teachings about the importance of sex in marriage, about how to have good sex etc so we are in a much better place than Christians were in the past. 
Your story is very extreme, I don't know any Christians who couldn't even use a tampon. Its certainly not indicative of any churches I have been to and I have been to many over the decades. 
There are also many Christian counsellors and marriage counsellors who we can go to if we have issues, plus great marriage courses.


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## Fly With Me

Diana7 said:


> Thankfully many churches are not like that. I heard a really good sermon by a nice pastor a few years ago about how important lots of sex is in marriage to help prevent a temptation to cheat. Many churches are open about marriage and sex now, and there are also countless great Christians books and courses and teachings about the importance of sex in marriage, about how to have good sex etc so we are in a much better place than Christians were in the past.
> Your story is very extreme, I don't know any Christians who couldn't even use a tampon. Its certainly not indicative of any churches I have been to and I have been to many over the decades.
> There are also many Christian counsellors and marriage counsellors who we can go to if we have issues, plus great marriage courses.


Very respectfully Diana I disagree. I am sure you are right that it is better now. But even what you just said "a really good sermon by a nice pastor about how important lots of sex is in marriage". I have sat in those sermons. I knew I needed to have lots of sex. I aimed for 3 times a week. (It wasn't always that often). That kind of sermon didn't help me at all.

I think bad sex is endemic in the church. I think if you surveyed MEN about how satisfied with their sex lives and they were honest it would be quite surprising. I could be wrong of course.

I also think the generic - you are the exception to the rule perspective isn't helpful. I may be an outlier but I suspect I'm not. And that's the kind of comment that would have made me feel ashamed in the past and like there was something wrong with me. "The church is right you are wrong and the exception." I just don't believe that anymore. I am now much more of the opinion that "it's all our stories" or at least many of our stories.



However, I am open to being mistaken.


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## ccpowerslave

A bit of a TJ but if you want your non believing family to participate in a baptism they need to go to class. A buddy of mine who is a satanic death metal listening complete unbeliever had to go to a Catholic Church class and discuss his relationship with Jesus. Good times.


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## Diana7

Fly With Me said:


> Very respectfully Diana I disagree. I am sure you are right that it is better now. But even what you just said "a really good sermon by a nice pastor about how important lots of sex is in marriage". I have sat in those sermons. I knew I needed to have lots of sex. I aimed for 3 times a week. (It wasn't always that often). That kind of sermon didn't help me at all.
> 
> I think bad sex is endemic in the church. I think if you surveyed MEN about how satisfied with their sex lives and they were honest it would be quite surprising. I could be wrong of course.
> 
> I also think the generic - you are the exception to the rule perspective isn't helpful. I may be an outlier but I suspect I'm not. And that's the kind of comment that would have made me feel ashamed in the past and like there was something wrong with me. "The church is right you are wrong and the exception." I just don't believe that anymore. I am now much more of the opinion that "it's all our stories" or at least many of our stories.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I am open to being mistaken.


I can only go by my experiences and the experiences of the many Christians I have known and know over the last several decades of being a Christian. 
Could it have been the 
way you were bought up that skewed and repressed your idea of sex and sexuality? . Or maybe the elim churches are especially strict, but your experience isn't mine. 
I have been to churches of 6 different denominations in many different parts of our country. Plus women's groups and different ministries. 
I have not heard or experienced any repression of sexuality. Maybe I am lucky but I don't think men(or women) in the church have any better or worse sex lives than those outside it. The vast majority of the countless people who come here with sexual problems aren't Christians.


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## Fly With Me

It def could be that for sure. 


Diana7 said:


> I can only go by my experiences and the experiences of the many Christians I have known and know over the last several decades of being a Christian.
> Could it have been the
> way you were bought up that skewed and repressed your idea of sex and sexuality? . Or maybe the elim churches are especially strict, but your experience isn't mine.
> I have been to churches of 6 different denominations in many different parts of our country. Plus women's groups and different ministries.
> I have not heard or experienced any repression of sexuality. Maybe I am lucky but I don't think men(or women) in the church have any better or worse sex lives than those outside it. The vast majority of the countless people who come here with sexual problems aren't Christians.


It def was my upbringing. I have the opposite experience to yours and know lots of people with similar stories to mine. Which I suspect means we tend to find and be friends with people similar to ourselves.

I don't think people in the church have worse sex than those outside it. I suspect many people, in and out of the church, are having bad sex, or good sex that could be way better but in the church they just don't know. There were times I would have said we had a good sex life.

I just think the message of "God's way is best for sex" leaves many people hurting and confused when their sex lives are nothing like they dreamed.

We read so many popular christian books about sex "sheet music" etc... none of them helped with dynamics, painful sex or the biological differences between men and women and their needs and many of them reinforced that sex is quite dirty. I think sheet music said oral sex was wrong because God wouldn't put a pleasure beach next to the toilet or something along those lines. And yet I see people recommend that book even today.


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## Diana7

Fly With Me said:


> It def could be that for sure.
> 
> 
> It def was my upbringing. I have the opposite experience to yours and know lots of people with similar stories to mine. Which I suspect means we tend to find and be friends with people similar to ourselves.
> 
> I don't think people in the church have worse sex than those outside it. I suspect many people, in and out of the church, are having bad sex, or good sex that could be way better but in the church they just don't know. There were times I would have said we had a good sex life.
> 
> I just think the message of "God's way is best for sex" leaves many people hurting and confused when their sex lives are nothing like they dreamed.
> 
> We read so many popular christian books about sex "sheet music" etc... none of them helped with dynamics, painful sex or the biological differences between men and women and their needs and many of them reinforced that sex is quite dirty. I think sheet music said oral sex was wrong because God wouldn't put a pleasure beach next to the toilet or something along those lines. And yet I see people recommend that book even today.


There are so many good books and teachings around now. We just have to search around really to find ones in we can relate to. 

There are a few things neither of us would do, such as anal sex, anything violent, pretending we are someone else etc but there are many things that we can do and enjoy. Have you read song of songs? It's very erotic.


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## Fly With Me

Diana7 said:


> There are so many good books and teachings around now. We just have to search around really to find ones in we can relate to.
> 
> There are a few things neither of us would do, such as anal sex, anything violent, pretending we are someone else etc but there are many things that we can do and enjoy. Have you read song of songs? It's very erotic.


Sure, I didn't come on this thread to say no christians have good sex. I'm delighted you are  And I am open to my perspective being skewed.

The question the OP asked was "Did any other Christian women get messed up by conflict between their religious values and sexuality?" And I did so I shared my story. It has taken me a long time to realise that and to accept that and I think there are many others like me. I suspect it's a bit of a silent epidemic. I also suspect that those with good sex lives are more likely to talk about it as with you and your friends. I suspect there will be at least some in your church dealing with silent shame around their sex lives. And many more, particularly women, who don't even realise there is a problem.

I love song of songs and always have. I could have written the textbook on how good sex in christian marrriage was and was supposed to be. I believe I have benefited from following much of the Christian teaching on sexuality. I have no problem with Jesus. It's the black and white purity culture and rigidity of the rules and the silent shame.

I am an eldest child, I love the rules and desperately want to do the right thing. Another child could have grown up in my family or church and responded differently. I'm not saying none of this is me. I am saying it's not just me!

I think if I was invited to your church or any church in the UK and told my story and offered to pray with anyone who resonated and wanted something different from their sex lives - wanted the kind of sex life I now experience - there would be people who would come find me, even if it was in private.


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## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> A bit of a TJ but if you want your non believing family to participate in a baptism they need to go to class. A buddy of mine who is a satanic death metal listening complete unbeliever had to go to a Catholic Church class and discuss his relationship with Jesus. Good times.


If I said, "CC, please take your wife to poop island. If you do this, I promise I'll make it worth your while by giving you an inside peek to the final 2 hours of my catholic marriage class where at all the kids asked their sexual questions" I can guarantee you would be walking around with a smile on your face while birds shat on your head knowing the crazy belly laughs that were to come.


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## Casual Observer

Just in case anyone thinks I exagerrated what Institute in Basic Youth Conflict's messaging was all about, this might help convince you. Please, do not think this is what all Christian churches believe, or that even the Evangelical churches are in step with this. Our own @Diana7 shows that a strong and fairly fundamentalist belief in God and Christ is not at odds with kindness, rationality, and enjoyment of sexuality (seen as a gift from God for both men and women).

But this stuff is out there, it's real, and it's destructive. It's going to be a long recovery for my wife.


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## TexasMom1216

Casual Observer said:


> Just in case anyone thinks I exagerrated what Institute in Basic Youth Conflict's messaging was all about, this might help convince you. Please, do not think this is what all Christian churches believe, or that even the Evangelical churches are in step with this. Our own @Diana7 shows that a strong and fairly fundamentalist belief in God and Christ is not at odds with kindness, rationality, and enjoyment of sexuality (seen as a gift from God for both men and women).
> 
> But this stuff is out there, it's real, and it's destructive. It's going to be a long recovery for my wife.
> View attachment 81900


This is... horrible. Not once has ANYONE shown me ANYTHING from a church that makes me regret removing that toxic influence from my life. These people are just monsters. And sorry, I get why you try to be nice, but they're all the same. Different window dressing, same hateful message.


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## Casual Observer

Fly With Me said:


> I just think the message of "God's way is best for sex" leaves many people hurting and confused when their sex lives are nothing like they dreamed.


I don't see anything really wrong with *that* specific message. Where things go wrong is when you make it so guilt-ridden if you screw up (have sex outside of the promoted plan, ie., before/outside of marriage), you are hosed, no cookie for you, the husband God chose, that perfect person, is no longer available to you. You are not as worthy as you were before.

And that message is so wrong from what Christ is all about. Sexual sin is not some monster that wrecks you for the rest of your life, if you confess it (to Christ, not in front of a body of "believers" or church elders) and work to be better. The fundamentalist church likely has more room in its heart to treat a murderer with potential for a wonderful, best-possible future, than the young woman who had sex outside of marriage. 

The church should not be using scare tactics to force what they feel is appropriate behavior. That is not a message of love. 

Some women, MOST women, given the percent of evangelical women who have sex outside of marriage is about the same as others, get through the experience and survive. SOME women are devastated, traumatize, and those who are are likely those most in need. Issues from home, or school, whatever. Looking for something of substance they're not finding elsewhere.


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## 24NitroglyceriN26

Casual Observer said:


> My wife had previously insisted to therapists that she'd not had close encounters with purity culture before we met, but a discovery two weeks ago of her training manual from Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Youth Conflict suddenly brought back a flood of memories. She's now gone through the book "Pure" by Linda Kay Klein and the passages below resonated strongly with her. Did any other Christian women get messed up by conflict between their religious values and sexuality?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 77
> 
> 11 Comments


I didn't want to read that book so I missed out on why you were asking for help.


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## Lotsofheart73

I have no experience with the specific group you are referring too OP, but have come across scare tactics in church youth groups that could really mess someone up. My grandparents took me to Sunday school & church up until about age 9. It was pretty tame from what I remember Sunday school was mostly reading parables and discussing a little and playing a game of doing a craft to illustrate the story.
Then as a preteen and young teen I would just go to youth group events when a friend invited me (various churches). Thinking back, the scare tactics used on that age group were things that could really mess someone up. General examples were equating Halloween with playing with the devil. Went to a Halloween alternate event (because apparently trick or treating was a no no) with a friend and at first it was fine. Smallish youth group around a camp fire roasting marshmelllows and social talk. Then the youth leader (a guy about 18 years old) gets serious. Rolls out a tv & vcr onto the grass and turns on some video basically showing what playing with the devil means….. showing people lining up to a guillotine. So- equating trick or treating to playing with the devil to getting the guillotine by God. I was about 13 at this time and quit going to the youth group stuff with my friend. The group always had events planned that seemed fun but ended it with some huge scare tactic. This was not some obscure church. It was a Baptist church. The youth group minister also relayed the same message you are describing about sex before marriage. You do it and you’re done. 

About 10 years ago, I agreed to attend some “bible studies” with a friend at her non-denominal church. Sounded like a good program. Thought I might also meet a new friend or two. It ended up being extremely intense sessions that were structured to bring guilt upon women. (It was a women’s program) I didn’t finish that. I thought the program was going to be more about finding good within yourself and others and how to get through hard times by looking to Jesus.

I have seen illustrations similar to the one you posted OP. I hope you and your wife continue to make strides in making things better for your marriage. 

Circling back around, I agree that scare tactics on children and teens is not the way to go. Because the end the child/teen either realizes what is going on and decides this isn’t for them and they blow off and good messages they did actually receive from the experience because they feel deceived by the phony scare tactics OR they end up being scarred from the tactics.


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## TexasMom1216

Lotsofheart73 said:


> I have no experience with the specific group you are referring too OP, but have come across scare tactics in church youth groups that could really mess someone up. My grandparents took me to Sunday school & church up until about age 9. It was pretty tame from what I remember Sunday school was mostly reading parables and discussing a little and playing a game of doing a craft to illustrate the story.
> Then as a preteen and young teen I would just go to youth group events when a friend invited me (various churches). Thinking back, the scare tactics used on that age group were things that could really mess someone up. General examples were equating Halloween with playing with the devil. Went to a Halloween alternate event (because apparently trick or treating was a no no) with a friend and at first it was fine. Smallish youth group around a camp fire roasting marshmelllows and social talk. Then the youth leader (a guy about 18 years old) gets serious. Rolls out a tv & vcr onto the grass and turns on some video basically showing what playing with the devil means….. showing people lining up to a guillotine. So- equating trick or treating to playing with the devil to getting the guillotine by God. I was about 13 at this time and quit going to the youth group stuff with my friend. The group always had events planned that seemed fun but ended it with some huge scare tactic. This was not some obscure church. It was a Baptist church. The youth group minister also relayed the same message you are describing about sex before marriage. You do it and you’re done.
> 
> About 10 years ago, I agreed to attend some “bible studies” with a friend at her non-denominal church. Sounded like a good program. Thought I might also meet a new friend or two. It ended up being extremely intense sessions that were structured to bring guilt upon women. (It was a women’s program) I didn’t finish that. I thought the program was going to be more about finding good within yourself and others and how to get through hard times by looking to Jesus.
> 
> I have seen illustrations similar to the one you posted OP. I hope you and your wife continue to make strides in making things better for your marriage.
> 
> Circling back around, I agree that scare tactics on children and teens is not the way to go. Because the end the child/teen either realizes what is going on and decides this isn’t for them and they blow off and good messages they did actually receive from the experience because they feel deceived by the phony scare tactics OR they end up being scarred from the tactics.


I had the same experiences. I tried over and over, with different churches, different groups, but the message stayed the same: women are the root of all evil and our lives are meant as a punishment for our part in costing mankind paradise. Men are the unquestioned and unaccountable rulers of all, we are part of the “beasts of the field” over whom he was given dominion. If your husband beats you, it is because you are sinful and falling short and not submissive enough. If he cheats, it’s your fault and you’re pushing him to sin with your inadequacy and sinful lack of submission. Every church, every group, and even a man I was about to marry, who lied to me about who he was and almost tricked me into giving over my life, they are all the same. Others have had more positive experiences with church, but I have never had a good experience with anyone in the clergy and very few Christian men. They’ve all proven to be wolves in sheep’s clothing.


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## Diana7

TexasMom1216 said:


> I had the same experiences. I tried over and over, with different churches, different groups, but the message stayed the same: women are the root of all evil and our lives are meant as a punishment for our part in costing mankind paradise. Men are the unquestioned and unaccountable rulers of all, we are part of the “beasts of the field” over whom he was given dominion. If your husband beats you, it is because you are sinful and falling short and not submissive enough. If he cheats, it’s your fault and you’re pushing him to sin with your inadequacy and sinful lack of submission. Every church, every group, and even a man I was about to marry, who lied to me about who he was and almost tricked me into giving over my life, they are all the same. Others have had more positive experiences with church, but I have never had a good experience with anyone in the clergy and very few Christian men. They’ve all proven to be wolves in sheep’s clothing.


I am fortunate to have met countless lovely decent Christian guys and some really good leaders/ pastors/vicars as well. 
I have also thankfully never encountered the things you have. I have been to churches of several denominations in many different parts of my country and they have treated women with respect and decency. 
It's sad you didn't, but thankfully so many churches and Christians are the opposite of what you describe. 

Wherever I have moved to I have always managed to find a good church. One that is welcoming and respects both men and women.

Changing slightly with reference to the purity movement. I suspect it's intentions were good, after all, for those who follow God sex outside marriage is taught.


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## Openminded

My childhood church was typical of that time and place and female purity, and all that goes with it, was strongly emphasized. That’s what my friends and I grew up with and that same teaching still exists in some circles although not as common as it once was. Unfortunately, I think there are still many females who struggle to overcome what they were taught about sex. Some succeed but some do not.


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## Openminded

Fly With Me said:


> Very respectfully Diana I disagree. I am sure you are right that it is better now. But even what you just said "a really good sermon by a nice pastor about how important lots of sex is in marriage". I have sat in those sermons. I knew I needed to have lots of sex. I aimed for 3 times a week. (It wasn't always that often). That kind of sermon didn't help me at all.
> 
> I think bad sex is endemic in the church. I think if you surveyed MEN about how satisfied with their sex lives and they were honest it would be quite surprising. I could be wrong of course.
> 
> I also think the generic - you are the exception to the rule perspective isn't helpful. I may be an outlier but I suspect I'm not. And that's the kind of comment that would have made me feel ashamed in the past and like there was something wrong with me. "The church is right you are wrong and the exception." I just don't believe that anymore. I am now much more of the opinion that "it's all our stories" or at least many of our stories.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I am open to being mistaken.


Nope. You’re not mistaken. That was my experience as well — and that of many other females that I know.


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## ccpowerslave

If God put pre-cut diamonds in the earth like in that reference photo I think the Hearts on Fire business model would not work.


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## Casual Observer

Regarding the varying experiences of Diana and others, I think we need to look at the attitudes going in. @Diana7 , I don't think, found the messaging challenging. My guess is that it was reaffirming. But, if we are to look at the real data, 70+% of evangelical-identifying women have had sex prior to marriage. So the truth is, for most attending these sessions, the message fails. A failure rate that high implies the message isn't appropriate for most of the audience, but those behind the message see that high failure rate and they're thinking hey, the message isn't strong enough! The stronger you make it, to greater the risk of alienation that you find in some of the people commenting here. And if you're alienated, you're going to key in on all the very worst aspects of the messaging, particularly how it enforces a rigid structure that puts the role of men in leadership and women as helpers/followers/etc. 

The strong believer going in? She may choose to not focus on that part of the messaging. Her focus may instead be on the whole thing of saving sexuality for the person they marry. And the stronger the messaging about the evils of sex, well, that seems just fine because they're in the 25% or whatever that will abstain from sex until marriage. What do they care?

Getting back to me projecting, the biggest danger in the messaging I've seen is the complete lack of redemption if you fail (which, again, 70% plus will do). For the, how to say it, extreme evangelical, the message of redemption is something already built-in. They know where forgiveness comes from. It's not from Bill Gothard, it's not from a Priest. It's a gift from God through Jesus. So it might be ironic that those best "prepared" to fail, those who understand redemption, are heavily loaded into the group that might not fail.


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## ConanHub

Casual Observer said:


> Just in case anyone thinks I exagerrated what Institute in Basic Youth Conflict's messaging was all about, this might help convince you. Please, do not think this is what all Christian churches believe, or that even the Evangelical churches are in step with this. Our own @Diana7 shows that a strong and fairly fundamentalist belief in God and Christ is not at odds with kindness, rationality, and enjoyment of sexuality (seen as a gift from God for both men and women).
> 
> But this stuff is out there, it's real, and it's destructive. It's going to be a long recovery for my wife.
> View attachment 81900


I can, but won't, identify a foundational heresy here and also misusing scripture to say what the author wants instead of what scripture actually says. It's called eisegesus and it means shoehorning in your own meaning over what scripture actually means.


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## Openminded

Damnation and hellfire played a significant role in the religious teachings of my (long ago) time and that kept many in line. And females who “fell” were not looked upon very favorably by the church even if they immediately married. Sex was thought to be basically for the benefit of males so however females felt about it wasn’t that important except that, after marriage, it was expected regularly and that was usually a major adjustment. Most of the females I knew who totally bought into the purity thing — and there were a lot of them then — often had a very difficult time transitioning from vestal virgin to sex kitten overnight or even at all. Those teachings turned out to be very difficult to discard for many. Some never did manage, unfortunately. That would just be an example of a time that’s passed except those teachings are still around in certain circles. Still damaging females IMO.


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## ConanHub

Openminded said:


> Damnation and hellfire played a significant role in the religious teachings of my (long ago) time and that kept many in line. And females who “fell” were not looked upon very favorably by the church even if they immediately married. Sex was thought to be basically for the benefit of males so however females felt about it wasn’t that important except that, after marriage, it was expected regularly and that was usually a major adjustment. Most of the females I knew who totally bought into the purity thing — and there were a lot of them then — often had a very difficult time transitioning from vestal virgin to sex kitten overnight or even at all. Those teachings turned out to be very difficult to discard for many. Some never did manage, unfortunately. That would just be an example of a time that’s passed except those teachings are still around in certain circles. Still damaging females IMO.


I've been involved with the evangelical/pentecostal church for years and eventually left it.

I've seen ridiculous religious teachings (that do not align with the bible) do tremendous damage to marriage and sex in particular to both women and men.

To be clear, I am a Christian still and pray daily as well as read the Bible with my wife.

We have had a remarkable sex life with only one (ironic) bump caused by a couple of religious church ladies trying to influence my wife.


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## TexasMom1216

Openminded said:


> Damnation and hellfire played a significant role in the religious teachings of my (long ago) time and that kept many in line. And females who “fell” were not looked upon very favorably by the church even if they immediately married. Sex was thought to be basically for the benefit of males so however females felt about it wasn’t that important except that, after marriage, it was expected regularly and that was usually a major adjustment. Most of the females I knew who totally bought into the purity thing — and there were a lot of them then — often had a very difficult time transitioning from vestal virgin to sex kitten overnight or even at all. Those teachings turned out to be very difficult to discard for many. Some never did manage, unfortunately. That would just be an example of a time that’s passed except those teachings are still around in certain circles. Still damaging females IMO.


I was taught that sex was part of the punishment women had to endure as punishment for Eve costing men paradise. Not only was it not important for us to enjoy it, it was supposed to be unpleasant and humiliating. It was the “cost” of having a man “take care” of you, that you had to “submit” to him. Basically, marital rape. If you seemed to enjoy it you were wanton and your husband should beat you and make sex as unpleasant as possible so you knew your place.


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## ConanHub

TexasMom1216 said:


> I was taught that sex was part of the punishment women had to endure as punishment for Eve costing men paradise. Not only was it not important for us to enjoy it, it was supposed to be unpleasant and humiliating. It was the “cost” of having a man “take care” of you, that you had to “submit” to him. Basically, marital rape. If you seemed to enjoy it you were wanton and your husband should beat you and make sex as unpleasant as possible so you knew your place.


Holy ****......

This is unreal and I would love to get the teachers of this tripe in the ring for some patented Conan "beat the hell out of you ministry"!

I had a pretty horrible childhood but I almost think yours might have been worse in some ways.😔


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## TexasMom1216

ConanHub said:


> Holy ****......
> 
> This is unreal and I would love to get the teachers of this tripe in the ring for some patented Conan "beat the hell out of you ministry"!
> 
> I had a pretty horrible childhood but I almost think yours might have been worse in some ways.😔


It was bad. Very bad. I haven’t spoken to them in 30 years and I still have nightmares.


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## ConanHub

TexasMom1216 said:


> It was bad. Very bad. I haven’t spoken to them in 30 years and I still have nightmares.


You definitely have my empathy. I have a good relationship with my mom but she finally grew up.

There are people from my childhood that would be in real danger if they were in my proximity.

I'm glad you made it. I did but I knew some who didn't or didn't become healthy, being permanently damaged, living zombies and poor reflections of what they could have been.


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## TexasMom1216

ConanHub said:


> I'm glad you made it. I did but I knew some who didn't or didn't become healthy, being permanently damaged, living zombies and poor reflections of what they could have been.


My brother and sister didn’t. She gave up a scholarship because “nice men don’t like smart girls” (a thing my father said regularly) and she’s miserable. My brother is full MGTOW because “women these days don’t know their place.” He hit one and she called the police. He was shocked they arrested him. He’s now a crooked judge in Dallas.


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## ConanHub

TexasMom1216 said:


> My brother and sister didn’t. She gave up a scholarship because “nice men don’t like smart girls” (a thing my father said regularly) and she’s miserable. My brother is full MGTOW because “women these days don’t know their place.” He hit one and she called the police. He was shocked they arrested him. He’s now a crooked judge in Dallas.


You, my dear, have every bit as interesting a story as I.

I guess I shouldn't be too shocked that a guy with a domestic violence arrest is a judge.🙄


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## Openminded

TexasMom1216 said:


> I was taught that sex was part of the punishment women had to endure as punishment for Eve costing men paradise. Not only was it not important for us to enjoy it, it was supposed to be unpleasant and humiliating. It was the “cost” of having a man “take care” of you, that you had to “submit” to him. Basically, marital rape. If you seemed to enjoy it you were wanton and your husband should beat you and make sex as unpleasant as possible so you knew your place.


My teaching wasn’t exactly 100% like that but it was very similar in many ways. It didn’t matter how women felt about sex because it wasn’t really meant for them anyway; interest would mean they were probably little better than a prostitute so starfish sex was the preference. Women were very much “less than” and highly controlled. They knew their place and stayed there — or else. What happened in the home was never discussed with anyone regardless of how bad it was and it might be very bad. Some of the good church men were the biggest cheaters and gamblers and drunks in the community. When caught out, they would get up in front of the congregation and confess and cry and beg forgiveness — and then they were happily welcomed back into the fold. Women were permanently shunned for considerably less — no forgiveness for them. I left that church as soon as I went to college and I never looked back. At this point I no longer believe in religion (spirituality is another story).


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## TexasMom1216

ConanHub said:


> You, my dear, have every bit as interesting a story as I.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't be too shocked that a guy with a domestic violence arrest is a judge.🙄


My father told me to “stop using so many big words, because nice men don’t like smart girls, and I don’t want to have to take of you any more.” My brother referred to me as a “split tail.” There’s a few men on TAM I can think of that would love my family. Texas today would eat those men alive. The girl they abused is gone. I killed her and ate her. 😉


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## TexasMom1216

Openminded said:


> My teaching wasn’t exactly 100% like that but it was very similar in many ways. It didn’t matter how women felt about sex because it wasn’t really meant for them anyway; interest would mean they were probably little better than a prostitute so starfish sex was the preference. Women were very much “less than” and highly controlled. They knew their place and stayed there — or else. What happened in the home was never discussed with anyone regardless of how bad it was and it might be very bad. Some of the good church men were the biggest cheaters and gamblers and drunks in the community. When caught out, they would get up in front of the congregation and confess and cry and beg forgiveness — and then they were happily welcomed back into the fold. Women were permanently shunned for considerably less — no forgiveness for them. I left that church as soon as I went to college and I never looked back. At this point I no longer believe in religion (spirituality is another story).


Everyone in our church knew what my father was doing. No one would call him out. They were afraid of him. He was a wealthy, crooked lawyer in a small town. He ruined people all the time. He was a monster. He’s still alive because hell has a waiting list.


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## ConanHub

TexasMom1216 said:


> Everyone in our church knew what my father was doing. No one would call him out. They were afraid of him. He was a wealthy, crooked lawyer in a small town. He ruined people all the time. He was a monster. He’s still alive because hell has a waiting list.


I won't go into it but I came very close to deleting a guy like your dad when I was 14 because no one in the church was man enough to stand up to his bull sh!t.

I kind of had to become an antimonster, so to speak.

I'm going to bed now but I so appreciate your perspective.


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## Openminded

TexasMom1216 said:


> Everyone in our church knew what my father was doing. No one would call him out. They were afraid of him. He was a wealthy, crooked lawyer in a small town. He ruined people all the time. He was a monster. He’s still alive because hell has a waiting list.


Sounds so very familiar.


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## TexasMom1216

ConanHub said:


> I won't go into it but I came very close to deleting a guy like your dad when I was 14 because no one in the church was man enough to stand up to his bull sh!t.
> 
> I kind of had to become an antimonster, so to speak.
> 
> I'm going to bed now but I so appreciate your perspective.


Same.


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## Fly With Me

Openminded said:


> transitioning from vestal virgin to sex kitten overnight or even at all



Yes. This is definitely part of it. Shut down your sexuality hard. Oh now turn it on again. 

It's not a switch. If someone has spent a decade or more repressing themselves 'for Jesus' and then are suddenly in a marriage where 'everything is ok' some of us don't just magicaly unrepress on our wedding night.

Especially because there is no teaching or support! Total silence and an assumption that if you are not fighting all is well. No one saying ok this is how you open yourself to emotions, to feelings, to pleasure. Or hey some of you women appear to be a bit controlling you know that will f up your sex life right?! Or just hey you how's your sex life- cause it is ok to talk about it now your married right?!!


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## Diana7

Openminded said:


> My childhood church was typical of that time and place and female purity, and all that goes with it, was strongly emphasized. That’s what my friends and I grew up with and that same teaching still exists in some circles although not as common as it once was. Unfortunately, I think there are still many females who struggle to overcome what they were taught about sex. Some succeed but some do not.


I don't think that being taught that sex before marriage is wrong for us as Christians should skew how we sex or how sex makes us feel. Gods teaching is that sex is good and God given and to be enjoyed, except that He puts a hedge round it and says it's for marriage between one man and one woman only. 
There is also forgiveness.


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## Openminded

Fly With Me said:


> Yes. This is definitely part of it. Shut down your sexuality hard. Oh now turn it on again.
> 
> It's not a switch. If someone has spent a decade or more repressing themselves 'for Jesus' and then are suddenly in a marriage where 'everything is ok' some of us don't just magicaly unrepress on our wedding night.
> 
> Especially because there is no teaching or support! Total silence and an assumption that if you are not fighting all is well. No one saying ok this is how you open yourself to emotions, to feelings, to pleasure. Or hey some of you women appear to be a bit controlling you know that will f up your sex life right?! Or just hey you how's your sex life- cause it is ok to talk about it now your married right?!!


Oh, how true! From one extreme to another literally overnight. No concept that it might take a minute (or maybe even forever). And, sadly, that mindset still exists today among certain groups.


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## Diana7

Fly With Me said:


> Yes. This is definitely part of it. Shut down your sexuality hard. Oh now turn it on again.
> 
> It's not a switch. If someone has spent a decade or more repressing themselves 'for Jesus' and then are suddenly in a marriage where 'everything is ok' some of us don't just magicaly unrepress on our wedding night.
> 
> Especially because there is no teaching or support! Total silence and an assumption that if you are not fighting all is well. No one saying ok this is how you open yourself to emotions, to feelings, to pleasure. Or hey some of you women appear to be a bit controlling you know that will f up your sex life right?! Or just hey you how's your sex life- cause it is ok to talk about it now your married right?!!


I dont think that waiting for marriage is repressing our feelings. It's just putting them in hold until you get married then it's all systems go. In fact the happiest marriages I know are between couples who waited till they married to have sex. Many married more that 40 years now.


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## Diana7

Openminded said:


> Oh, how true! From one extreme to another literally overnight. No concept that it might take a minute (or maybe even forever). And, sadly, that mindset still exists today among certain groups.


It's something that the couple work on gradually over weeks, months and years. It's a process. 
It's really not one extreme to another at all. It's the first step of many.


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## TexasMom1216

Diana7 said:


> I dont think that waiting for marriage is repressing our feelings. It's just putting them in hold until you get married then it's all systems go. In fact the happiest marriages I know are between couples who waited till they married to have sex. Many married more that 40 years now.


That’s not what we’re saying. The message we got wasn’t “wait until marriage.” The message we got was “sex is bad and dirty and the fact that men are sexually attracted to you means you’re a *****, so repress it and be ashamed of it.” The message to wait until marriage and then enjoy sex was NOT what I got from church. I never heard anything like that at church or home, ever. Sex was dirty and bad and women had to prostitute themselves for room and board, to their shame. Having sex was a punishment for women, not something lovingly shared within marriage. It’s a TOTALLY different message than the one you’re talking about.


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## Openminded

Diana7 said:


> I don't think that being taught that sex before marriage is wrong for us as Christians should skew how we sex or how sex makes us feel. Gods teaching is that sex is good and God given and to be enjoyed, except that He puts a hedge round it and says it's for marriage between one man and one woman only.
> There is also forgiveness.


In my time, purity was only taught to females. Males were exempt. Many good girls were expected to turn into bad girls on their wedding night. But that rarely worked well. The lessons from the early years didn’t necessarily just disappear overnight. For some, they never did. For those who quickly, or eventually, discovered their inner sex kitten there were also many more who remained detached and uninterested thanks to those early lessons that sex is bad. As the other poster said, for many there’s not necessarily a switch to suddenly turn on. If you’re taught sex is wrong during your early years, you just might keep that thought the rest of your life. It’s not like those teachers discussed the nuances of sex — primarily the lesson was that it was a bad thing so don’t do it.


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## Openminded

Diana7 said:


> It's something that the couple work on gradually over weeks, months and years. It's a process.
> It's really not one extreme to another at all. It's the first step of many.


For you and the people you know that may be the case but it’s not true for everyone. Many females of my generation continued to dislike sex their entire lives. And, in my time, they weren’t really expected to like it and sometimes if they did that wasn’t well received because it wasn’t for them anyway. Sex was for the benefit of men and while women were expected to dole it out on command — and do whatever heir husbands wanted — enjoying it wasn’t considered necessary for them and it might even be considered a negative. Those days are gone in the U.S. for the majority of women but the damage remains for some. And those teachings still remain among certain religious groups.


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## Openminded

Diana7 said:


> It's something that the couple work on gradually over weeks, months and years. It's a process.
> It's really not one extreme to another at all. It's the first step of many.


The lesson given to many women of my generation was that sex had to be tolerated in marriage but if you weren’t married then you had no use for it because it wasn’t for you anyway. Some ignored the lesson but unfortunately others didn’t. The damage, for them, was permanent.


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## Angie?or…

TexasMom1216 said:


> I was taught that sex was part of the punishment women had to endure as punishment for Eve costing men paradise. Not only was it not important for us to enjoy it, it was supposed to be unpleasant and humiliating. It was the “cost” of having a man “take care” of you, that you had to “submit” to him. Basically, marital rape. If you seemed to enjoy it you were wanton and your husband should beat you and make sex as unpleasant as possible so you knew your place.


I’m so sorry. That is horrifying.


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## Fly With Me

Diana7 said:


> I dont think that waiting for marriage is repressing our feelings. It's just putting them in hold until you get married then it's all systems go. In fact the happiest marriages I know are between couples who waited till they married to have sex. Many married more that 40 years now.


That was clearly the case for you and others. And I am really glad Diana. Really, really glad.

I suspect often good parenting can fill the gaps the church leaves.

For me there were gaps everywhere. Yes the overarching narrative is sex is good - wait and all will be well. But there is no teaching on how you get there. On the goodness of the female body, on the goodness of self pleasure and on how if you are waiting in the mean time you can learn what you like so you can teach your husband. There is no teaching on the responsibility to learn what you like and what works for you. There is no teaching on anything related to good intimate relationships. 

The teaching zeroes in over and over again on don't do it. Ever. Until you're married.

In order to fulfill that , and in the absence of any healthy alternative teaching I, and many others repressed our sexuality. It felt safer to repress and ensure the terrible red line was never crossed.

Was that the intention of those teaching? No - for the most part their intentions are good .(except for the examples above where it's not). 

Honestly sometimes with church stuff I think it's the blind leading the blind. We read "i kissed dating goodbye" and "not even a hint" we took pride in our abstinence and knew everything would be amazing once we were married. Interestingly the author of those books has now massively apologised for them. He meant so well. When my pastor's wife told me I probably wouldn't enjoy it but to do it anyway she had good intentions. She had obviously not experienced a fulfilling sexual relationship and had found her fulfilment in being the good pastor's wife.

It's all messed up. That has been my experience. It's not the only one and i acknowledge your experience has been beautifully different.


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## Diana7

TexasMom1216 said:


> That’s not what we’re saying. The message we got wasn’t “wait until marriage.” The message we got was “sex is bad and dirty and the fact that men are sexually attracted to you means you’re a ***, so repress it and be ashamed of it.” The message to wait until marriage and then enjoy sex was NOT what I got from church. I never heard anything like that at church or home, ever. Sex was dirty and bad and women had to prostitute themselves for room and board, to their shame. Having sex was a punishment for women, not something lovingly shared within marriage. It’s a TOTALLY different message than the one you’re talking about.


Never heard that in any church, teaching, book or anything else Christianity related. I guess there were a few churches like that but I am sure they were few and have changed now. It's certainly not what the Bible says. That's why it's always best to check all teaching against the Bible.


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## TexasMom1216

Diana7 said:


> Never heard that in any church, teaching, book or anything else Christianity related. I guess there were a few churches like that but I am sure they were few and have changed now. It's certainly not what the Bible says. That's why it's always best to check all teaching against the Bible.


I’m glad it was like that for you. It seems to bring you peace and comfort and I’m happy that you have that.


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## Diana7

Fly With Me said:


> That was clearly the case for you and others. And I am really glad Diana. Really, really glad.
> 
> I suspect often good parenting can fill the gaps the church leaves.
> 
> For me there were gaps everywhere. Yes the overarching narrative is sex is good - wait and all will be well. But there is no teaching on how you get there. On the goodness of the female body, on the goodness of self pleasure and on how if you are waiting in the mean time you can learn what you like so you can teach your husband. There is no teaching on the responsibility to learn what you like and what works for you. There is no teaching on anything related to good intimate relationships.
> 
> The teaching zeroes in over and over again on don't do it. Ever. Until you're married.
> 
> In order to fulfill that , and in the absence of any healthy alternative teaching I, and many others repressed our sexuality. It felt safer to repress and ensure the terrible red line was never crossed.
> 
> Was that the intention of those teaching? No - for the most part their intentions are good .(except for the examples above where it's not).
> 
> Honestly sometimes with church stuff I think it's the blind leading the blind. We read "i kissed dating goodbye" and "not even a hint" we took pride in our abstinence and knew everything would be amazing once we were married. Interestingly the author of those books has now massively apologised for them. He meant so well. When my pastor's wife told me I probably wouldn't enjoy it but to do it anyway she had good intentions. She had obviously not experienced a fulfilling sexual relationship and had found her fulfilment in being the good pastor's wife.
> 
> It's all messed up. That has been my experience. It's not the only one and i acknowledge your experience has been beautifully different.


To be honest I had no teaching/guidance from church on sex/marriage. Up to 11 we were taken to a high Anglican church that was very formal. Sex was never mentioned. 
Didn't go again till I was 15 to a nice Baptist church with a great pastor who incidently married my best friend. 
My values just seemed to be largely my own, eventually learning what God said. My mum had strong values and waited for marriage till she had sex so I guess her good influence helped.


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## Openminded

In my case, the message taught was men need sex and women don’t. It wasn’t meant for us. Our focus was to be on our children. They were our reward for marriage and sex was the reward for our husbands. A significant part of our value was tied to children (the more you had the better your life was). I did have a child but I also had a career so I was out of the norm in my extended family and made to feel it. Of course, that was a much different time but it’s still possible to find people who continue to live that life — including some of my childhood friends. They prefer their lives, which are guided by a strict and narrow interpretation of the Bible, and I prefer mine, which is not.


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## Fly With Me

Openminded said:


> In my case, the message taught was men need sex and women don’t. It wasn’t meant for us. Our focus was to be on our children. They were our reward for marriage and sex was the reward for our husbands. A significant part of our value was tied to children (the more you had the better your life was). I did have a child but I also had a career so I was out of the norm in my extended family and made to feel it. Of course, that was a much different time but it’s still possible to find people who continue to live that life — including some of my childhood friends. They prefer their lives, which are guided by a strict and narrow interpretation of the Bible, and I prefer mine, which is not.


I want to sad react and thumbs up react and I can't do both!


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## TexasMom1216

Openminded said:


> In my case, the message taught was men need sex and women don’t. It wasn’t meant for us. Our focus was to be on our children. They were our reward for marriage and sex was the reward for our husbands. A significant part of our value was tied to children (the more you had the better your life was). I did have a child but I also had a career so I was out of the norm in my extended family and made to feel it. Of course, that was a much different time but it’s still possible to find people who continue to live that life — including some of my childhood friends. They prefer their lives, which are guided by a strict and narrow interpretation of the Bible, and I prefer mine, which is not.


This. And truthfully, some women want that life. Its very simple when your entire life is guided by rigid, unbendable rules and you don’t have any decisions to make, they’re made for you. I wonder if that is why some people (men and women) choose to be nuns or monks. Life is simple. Not easy, but simple. Definitely not scary at all. It can be scary when you realize that your future is up to you and if you mess it up, no one will save you. That responsibility felt like freedom to me, after so long under tight control. But for some, it’s not that way. And both roads, or a combination of them, are valid choices that can lead to happiness.


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## Openminded

TexasMom1216 said:


> This. And truthfully, some women want that life. Its very simple when your entire life is guided by rigid, unbendable rules and you don’t have any decisions to make, they’re made for you. I wonder if that is why some people (men and women) choose to be nuns or monks. Life is simple. Not easy, but simple. Definitely not scary at all. It can be scary when you realize that your future is up to you and if you mess it up, no one will save you. That responsibility felt like freedom to me, after so long under tight control. But for some, it’s not that way. And both roads, or a combination of them, are valid choices that can lead to happiness.


I totally agree. My childhood friends who follow that life wouldn’t change it for anything. As you said, they lead simple lives but not easy lives — although they are happy and think that’s the only way to live. They don’t want to be in charge of their lives. I couldn’t handle the restrictiveness and the subservience but they apparently thrive on it. None of them would consider divorce regardless of the circumstances and they are still shocked that I ended my very long marriage so late in life. It’s definitely a different way to live and not for me but it works for them.


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## TexasMom1216

Openminded said:


> I totally agree. My childhood friends who follow that life wouldn’t change it for anything. As you said, they lead simple lives but not easy lives — although they are happy and think that’s the only way to live. They don’t want to be in charge of their lives. I couldn’t handle the restrictiveness and the subservience but they apparently thrive on it. None of them would consider divorce regardless of the circumstances and they are still shocked that I ended my very long marriage so late in life. It’s definitely a different way to live and not for me but it works for them.


Being subservient is my living nightmare. No adult wants control over another adult for a good reason. I hope they’re safe, and maybe they are. I’d rather be dead.


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