# Initiating "The Talk"...



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Good day Good People of TAM.
I've initiated having "The Talk" more times that I care to remember. It always ends up in an argument. This got me thinking. What if I'm doing it wrong? What if my approach in trying to have yet another "Talk" is all wrong? 
I've tried to have this talk with her so many times already and it always ends in an argument. Is my approach wrong? Maybe suggest another approach?
What generally happens is that I'd get tired of the status quo of our non existent sex life and will initiate the talk. It will start out with asking her what's wrong. Her response is to stare blankly at a wall or out a window or to ignore me or to sigh and then apply all of the above. I'll pursue the matter again and shed first start off by saying nothing is wrong. To which I'd respond with a, "no something is definitely wrong, since we haven't been intimate at all in X amounts of months". She then gets defensive and the argument would start. 
In her mind, I don't treat her too well. I don't understand this explanation and she refuses to go into detail. She would just stare blankly at something and ignore my words. 
I've initiated this talk late at night when we're in bed. She asked me to do it at a better time, not when the kids are home and sleeping. I then tried to have it in the morning, once they've left for school. Her response would be something along the lines of: "You want to do this NOW!!!???". To what I'd reply with, yeah, you said that late at night is no good, so let's have it out. She would have an excuse, like prior commitment or something. I've tried having it while we're alone in the car also. I'd get the same response along the lines of, "NOW!!!??? Really???. Is there nothing else you think of?".
Her responses or lack thereof usually leaves me irritated and left feeling wound up. I'm not sure how else or when to start this discussion. 
I may have left loads of details out of my post so if you need more info, please ask. 

Me: 33; HD; Not overweight; Physically healthy
Her: 35; Zero Drive; Not overweight; Physically healthy
Together: 13 years
Married: 8 years
Kids: 2

Please tell me where I'm going wrong or what I need to change. It angers me when HD spouses start looking for problems with themselves in these pages when we all know where the problems usually lies. But alas, here I am too. 
Show me the error of my ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I would suggest you stop asking her what is wrong and start telling her what is wrong. You are giving her all the power, the power to define the term of the relationship, the power to define when it's not working, and the power to decide when it is working. Don't you get a say?

Instead of "what's wrong?" You start with, "I don't know how I can keep going like this. This is wrong, it hurts and I simply can't do this marriage thing when it means my most important need goes completely unmet, minimized and ignored. We either work together to get back on track or I will pull completely away from you which will eventually kill our marriage. Which will it be?"

Now you have the power. Your expectations, your needs, your parameters and your decision.

Be prepared with names and numbers of therapists and or sex therapists. Because if by chance she agrees to work together, you need to be prepared to put her feet to the coals to make her talk!


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I like this thread. I'm very interested to hear what people would suggest because I know for myself I can come off too confronting and makes him defensive right off the bat. 

Does she respond at all to positive re-enforcement when she is intimate? Has she given any examples about the not being treated too well and what she feels you could do to treat her better?


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

You have to be ready to draw the line in the sand. I would have two business cards...one for a marriage counselor/sex therapist and one for a divorce attorney ask her which one she wants you to call. Don't back down...you will call one or the other..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

The problem is that she is perfectly content with no sex so it is your problem and not hers. 

Where as you consider it her problem, she considers it your problem.

I agree with her. It is your problem and not hers. Why shouldn't HD spouses look at problems with themselves? Certainly if they where not HD they would not have a problem. 

Maybe you meant that you do not like to see HD spouses blame themselves for not being attractive enough so to make their spouses want to have sex with them?

I agree with that. If they married you in the first place attraction is usually not an issue. 

Have you tried writing it down instead? -a lot of people are very averse to confrontation.

Yes I think I know where the problem lies 
-mismatched need for sex?


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

mineforever said:


> You have to be ready to draw the line in the sand. I would have two business cards...one for a marriage counselor/sex therapist and one for a divorce attorney ask her which one she wants you to call. Don't back down...you will call one or the other..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But never make a boundary that you're not willing to enforce. At least part of the problem now is due to the fact that she can throw a fit or ignore you, and you back down. So she's learned how to get you off her case, at least temporarily. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 41362 (Dec 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I would suggest you stop asking her what is wrong and start telling her what is wrong. You are giving her all the power, the power to define the term of the relationship, the power to define when it's not working, and the power to decide when it is working. Don't you get a say?
> 
> Instead of "what's wrong?" You start with, "I don't know how I can keep going like this. This is wrong, it hurts and I simply can't do this marriage thing when it means my most important need goes completely unmet, minimized and ignored. We either work together to get back on track or I will pull completely away from you which will eventually kill our marriage. Which will it be?"
> 
> ...


Agree 100%

You are giving her all of the power to dictate the terms of the conversation... which means that you will never have it. The time will never be right. 

Tell her you want 20 minutes of her time to listen. Put it out there and put it out well. Be prepared.


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

My suggestion is somewhat different than the others. Keep in mind I'm saying all this not knowing any particulars of your situation, nor do I know what you have already tried.

Especially when a woman becomes a mother, it seems there is an endless drain on people taking from her. Mostly the children, who have numerous needs and give little in return. A woman who is a pleaser and a nurturer will give and give and give until there is nothing left. 

If she perceives that you are not helping fill her emotionally, your need for sex becomes one more thing that is being taken from her. She may perceive that you give her nothing, but ask sex from her and she, emotionally has nothing left to give. The sex act she may perceive as you only being concerned about yourself getting off. Even if she is getting off she can still perceive this - if she feels her getting off is something else you need from her and not something you are giving to her.

I think you first need to appeal to the emotional side of what no sex is doing to you. She needs to hear what it is doing to your self esteem, what it is doing to your personal life, your job - all the areas that are affected by this erosion. 

You need to make clear that you cannot continue this indefinitely. When you married her and promised to care for her you did not want your lives to become as they are now, with resentments and unhappiness on both your parts.

Appeal to her younger memories of the two of you, happier times that included a healthy sex life. Describe to her your own memories of this time, when you were happy because you felt you were taking care of her and your sex life was something you shared between the two of you. 

Acknowledge what she has already told you - she feels you are not helping her. You are unable to work on this until she gives you the information you need - where you are failing her. 

State that you want to care for her again. You want your marriage to be a happier marriage. You want her to feel like she can depend on you as a partner, not as another drain on her resources.

Ask her to take the 5 Love Languages quiz. Go over the results together, ask her to elaborate.

Tell her that you will not ask her for sex for the next 30 days. During these 30 days you only want to do a better job of caring for her. Knowing you will not ask her for sex will keep her from thinking you are just being nice on Tuesday so you can get sex on Tuesday. 30 days is likely long enough to prove to her that you really want things to be better and ease her burden. 

Offer to go to a marriage counselor with her so you can get this issue worked through. You want to be a team as you were when you were younger. You want your wife to feel like that young woman again. You want for her to feel towards you like she did when you got married. 

(All of the above is no commentary on your sexual skill NOR how much you help your wife. It is her perception that you are not helping her, she has said as much. This is no commentary on what you are actually doing, she may be a shrew, I have no idea.)


----------



## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

You could have 100 talks and its not going to make a difference in the world.

If you havent already, start by talking about how the situation makes YOU feel, focus on you.

As others have said, set some boundaries, a line in the sand, something.

I disagree with others to where the neglected person needs to go beyond all means to find out whats wrong and fix it.

Just sounds ridiculous for the hurt person to solve everything while its ok for the other person to do basically nothing because they dont have an issue with no sex.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Damn girl ...

Hell, yes.



Anon Pink said:


> I would suggest you stop asking her what is wrong and start telling her what is wrong. You are giving her all the power, the power to define the term of the relationship, the power to define when it's not working, and the power to decide when it is working. Don't you get a say?
> 
> Instead of "what's wrong?" You start with, "I don't know how I can keep going like this. This is wrong, it hurts and I simply can't do this marriage thing when it means my most important need goes completely unmet, minimized and ignored. We either work together to get back on track or I will pull completely away from you which will eventually kill our marriage. Which will it be?"
> 
> ...


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Janky said:


> You could have 100 talks and its not going to make a difference in the world.
> 
> If you havent already, start by talking about how the situation makes YOU feel, focus on you.
> 
> ...


It's not fair, but it's reality. The LD is NOT going to be the one to make any changes to the situation, 999 times out of a thousand. You can sit and wait for them to see the injustice of the situation and "come around" (they won't), or you can suck up your pride and get try to get the ball rolling yourself. Totally not fair, I agree. But it is what it is.


----------



## Mulligan (Nov 24, 2013)

My guess, in a nutshell, is that your wife just isn't attracted to you. I don't know that any amount of talking is going to change that. I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I think it is common in marriages, particularly after a couple kids come into the picture.

How do you compare to the person you were before you got married. You say you're not overweight, but have you nonetheless put on weight, or are you significantly less fit? Did you used to be more upbeat and fun to be around? Did you used to take her out more to dinner or movies, and now that is gone? Having kids can kill your fun/social life with your wife, and that can kill your sex life (it happened to my marriage).

I suggest (from my experience) that you try to carve some time out of your schedule to get yourself together. Start going to the gym or running. From time to time go out with some friends to watch a game or go do something else that makes you happy so that you're a more upbeat, confident guy when you're around her. Give her some nights out and away from the kids too. Find the time to get a baby sitter and take her out to dinner or a movie or whatever. Do this for a couple months and put all expectations of sex on the back burner for a while. Just work on yourself and try to spend some fun time with your wife without any expectation of sex. Let her relax and realize that you're a fun guy to be around.

As others have said, it's tough to diagnose this without knowing more, but this was my guess.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving.
> 
> However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage.
> 
> A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.


I posted this in July 2012. To this day, we are still in a mode that rejection is very rare. After 20 plus years of marriage and a long drought in the bedroom, she finally came to understand that my desire for sex was an important part of my happiness in the marriage. Her previously high drive had died and I heard many of the same things many do. "I could live without it forever" Well, I can't and won't. She is now and has been since this conversation an engaged and enthusiastic lover. And I have continued to provide her with the emotional attention she desires in our relationship. It is very much a two way street. The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them. This worked for us but I wouldn't guarantee it will work for all. At the time I did it I was aware of the possibility that her response could be "Go **** yourself!"


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> My suggestion is somewhat different than the others. Keep in mind I'm saying all this not knowing any particulars of your situation, nor do I know what you have already tried.
> 
> Especially when a woman becomes a mother, it seems there is an endless drain on people taking from her. Mostly the children, who have numerous needs and give little in return. A woman who is a pleaser and a nurturer will give and give and give until there is nothing left.
> 
> ...


This is so true, so true. Men forget this, after kids sex seems like another task to complete. Even when having an orgasm, it is a drain on our already depleted energy. When having sex, you need to be physically and mentally present, you can't just zone out. So, the wife who would rather play on the computer instead of having sex just wants to zone out in front of the computer. Because the computer won't mind, it won't complain about it being "boring".

Evidently, men place their whole emotional being into their sex life, so it is that important for them. Men can't see where it takes so much effort. You just gotta trust us when we say that it does.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is so true, so true. Men forget this, after kids sex seems like another task to complete. Even when having an orgasm, it is a drain on our already depleted energy. When having sex, you need to be physically and mentally present, you can't just zone out. So, the wife who would rather play on the computer instead of having sex just wants to zone out in front of the computer. Because the computer won't mind, it won't complain about it being "boring".
> 
> Evidently, men place their whole emotional being into their sex life, so it is that important for them. Men can't see where it takes so much effort. You just gotta trust us when we say that it does.


Of course it takes effort. Meeting someone else's emotional needs always does.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

techmom said:


> This is so true, so true. Men forget this, after kids sex seems like another task to complete. Even when having an orgasm, it is a drain on our already depleted energy. When having sex, you need to be physically and mentally present, you can't just zone out. So, the wife who would rather play on the computer instead of having sex just wants to zone out in front of the computer. Because the computer won't mind, it won't complain about it being "boring".
> 
> Evidently, men place their whole emotional being into their sex life, so it is that important for them. Men can't see where it takes so much effort. You just gotta trust us when we say that it does.


All due respect?

No.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

TAM had more women admitting that they were not into their husbands anymore in early years. Those posters get blasted pretty hard on TAM because they are saying their husbands don't have any sex appeal, thought they will admit that they are good providers, good fathers. They are boring. The potential WAW who describe this sort of wish they could flick switch to transform their husbands, but that transformation can only take place by hooking up with an OM.... or the husband reads some self help book and transforms himself.

No easy task. Read Bagdon. Read Jerry123.

There is one former LD wife who changed. Is she called Gettingitnow? 

Hitting the gym/sports hard is certainly a good way to up sex ranking. Talk less. Be more decisive. Listen to your wife carefully. Don't be a yes man but if you see some issue of importance to her that you can resolve, do it.

Short of threatening divorce it is possible to be happy so that she wants to get closer.

There are so many sexless marriage threads on TAM. Some go on and on. You wonder why doesn't the guy just get the divorce application forms and mail them to "Mr & Mrs Smith" so that the wife picks up the letter on Friday when she gets home from work and opens it. She'll have a shock but when she asks for an explanation he can say, "I am not in the mood to talk about it tonight. Some other time when I am not so stressed out from work and the kids.

Have a glass of wine with me. Dinner's already made. Chill."

At this point he should smile (not smirk).


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Deejo said:


> All due respect?
> 
> No.


I'm just telling like it is.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I would suggest you stop asking her what is wrong and start telling her what is wrong. You are giving her all the power, the power to define the term of the relationship, the power to define when it's not working, and the power to decide when it is working. Don't you get a say?
> 
> Instead of "what's wrong?" You start with, "I don't know how I can keep going like this. This is wrong, it hurts and I simply can't do this marriage thing when it means my most important need goes completely unmet, minimized and ignored. We either work together to get back on track or I will pull completely away from you which will eventually kill our marriage. Which will it be?"
> 
> ...


Let me start off by thanking you for replying first. I appreciate everyone taking time out to help a brother out!!!

In my post, when I say that I've tried it all, I'm almost certain that I did. 
When I leave the ball in her court, it just stays there. I've told her before that I'm done trying. Told her that she has no idea how taxing these drought spells are on me. She would then respond with "You are pressuring me again..." 
Anyway, as of most recently, the ball has been in her court and I'm yet to see it being picked up. This sexless marriage thing really fcuks with one's mind.

So, ball has been with her for since (I think) August/September 2013 (5 months now) and I know that it's time for me to say something again else I feel she starts to think that I'm OK with this new norm. Hence, me asking for new ways of bringing it up

Thank You so much for your reply.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I like this thread. I'm very interested to hear what people would suggest because I know for myself I can come off too confronting and makes him defensive right off the bat.
> 
> Does she respond at all to positive re-enforcement when she is intimate? Has she given any examples about the not being treated too well and what she feels you could do to treat her better?


She responds for a bit, then it quickly fades until we're on yet another 3 month drought.
She's given examples in the past which always leaves me more confused coz to me it seems like whatever she might be on about never happened. I sometimes feel like her reality and whats really happening are worlds apart. Go figure.
I tend to lean more toward it just being another excuse. Something which cannot be touched or seen so it cant be fixed. Like a smoke screen to keep me busy for a while.
A few days later the excuse will change again. Maybe the next excuse would be that her stomach is cramping. Or she's tired. O r it's too hot. Or it's too cold. Or she's just eaten. Or she's waking up early in the morning. The list goes on and on. Endless.
I'm at my wits end this time.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Not to sound negative, but you only have two choices, either focus on the good parts of the marriage & forget a regular sex life or divorce her.
For some reason, she has fallen out of love with you, like my wife of 18 years has with me. They can tell you nothing is wrong, still be happy & even still say they love you and think they mean it, but sex is the ultimate barometer.
Sadly talks, letters etc won't change anything, I've tried them all.
The good news is, if you still love your wife & are determined to stay, your sex drive will diminish with time & it won't be a big deal anymore.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

mineforever said:


> You have to be ready to draw the line in the sand. I would have two business cards...one for a marriage counselor/sex therapist and one for a divorce attorney ask her which one she wants you to call. Don't back down...you will call one or the other..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd like to at least have the opportunity to actually land a punch before calling it quits or drawing lines. She's just been bobbing and weaving and I'm hoping to land a good punch soon.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> There is one former LD wife who changed. Is she called Gettingitnow?


I guess you're referring to me. 

My desire for my husband did tank for ten years after we became parents. The reasons were myriad and complex, but I think I am different in that I'm actually a woman with a high sex drive. I had something to find my way back to. 

My husband initiated the talk many, many times in those ten years. The last time he did it--the time that finally got me to do something--was a little different than all the previous times. He wasn't angry, he wasn't blaming me, he wasn't trying to explain himself; we had been through those scenarios a dozen times. He simply asked me if I would take the time to consider that maybe there was something I could do (I had always taken the "what am I supposed to do about it?" approach to my lack of desire.) I thought about it for a couple of weeks, and then one day I turned to Google and found TAM.

For the first time I understood what my husband had been going through. I realized that lack of sex and intimacy WITH ME was the cause of his depression, his stress, his lack of interest in having a social life or hobbies. I truly had not been getting it, although he had tried to tell me time and again. 

I faced the fact that I was carrying a sh1tload of resentment that had killed my desire, and I got myself into therapy. But the desire did come back immediately--because I learned that my husband needed sex with me in a way I had not been able to comprehend until I read it put forth time and again by strangers. 

I always wonder if it would work the same way for other LD wives--whether or not they are truly low drive, or just in a period of low desire for their husbands. I've been with my husband for 25 years, and a bunch of strangers on the internet taught me how to understand him.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> The problem is that she is perfectly content with no sex so it is your problem and not hers.
> 
> Where as you consider it her problem, she considers it your problem.
> 
> ...


I havent tried writing it down yet. I shall give that one a go next time.
Thanks!

I'm not sure if it's a mismatched need for sex as much as an "I think sex is dirty and you're vile for wanting me to engage in such awful behavior" - problem. :lol:
At least thats how I see it...


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

woundedwarrior said:


> Not to sound negative, but you only have two choices, either focus on the good parts of the marriage & forget a regular sex life or divorce her.
> For some reason, she has fallen out of love with you, like my wife of 18 years has with me. They can tell you nothing is wrong, still be happy & even still say they love you and think they mean it, but sex is the ultimate barometer.
> Sadly talks, letters etc won't change anything, I've tried them all.
> The good news is, if you still love your wife & are determined to stay, your sex drive will diminish with time & it won't be a big deal anymore.


I would second this post... those are the only two real options. I think WW and myself are in similar situations, we've been there and tried that. Lately for over a year I decided to stop. Just stop. 

I will agree sex is not as big of a deal however I think deep down all of us want to re-kindle it. The drive is there but its almost like being a POW and make the best of what you can. So I believe the sex drive is still there just muted.

For me it boils down to one thought...if she doesn't want it for whatever reason I don't either.. it sucks to be in that situation but its the way it is right now and has been for a long spell. Can it change...sure but really that is something you have no real control over.

Talks don't work... talks don't work... repeat after me talks don't work.

Make your choice and do the best with that choice you hold the cards of your own life.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

41362 said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> You are giving her all of the power to dictate the terms of the conversation... which means that you will never have it. The time will never be right.
> 
> Tell her you want 20 minutes of her time to listen. Put it out there and put it out well. Be prepared.


I really sincerely hope she can free up 20 minutes of her valuable time to talk about our marriage.
There is usually almost always something more important going on as far as she's concerned. 

Let's see how that goes.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

wannabe said:


> I really sincerely hope she can free up 20 minutes of her valuable time to talk about our marriage.
> There is usually almost always something more important going on as far as she's concerned.
> 
> Let's see how that goes.


Lets back up. 

What is the marriage like outside of the context of her thinking there is something wrong with you for wanting to discuss, let alone actually have sex?

What are you like as a husband? Does she resent you? Does she respect you? Does she love you?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

techmom said:


> I'm just telling like it is.


Oh, I know. And sincerely, I'm sure my response read a bit more harsh than I intended. Not targeted at you.

But I made my decision about the rationalization that you outlined. I know that it's real. I lived it.

And my final answer was, 'No'. 

Unacceptable.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> My suggestion is somewhat different than the others. Keep in mind I'm saying all this not knowing any particulars of your situation, nor do I know what you have already tried.
> 
> Especially when a woman becomes a mother, it seems there is an endless drain on people taking from her. Mostly the children, who have numerous needs and give little in return. A woman who is a pleaser and a nurturer will give and give and give until there is nothing left.
> 
> ...


Very well worded reply. I feel like you know exactly how confusing the whole "He says/She says" thing gets. One needs to try and be a few steps ahead of "the game" at all times. It gets tiring.
I can assure you that I do very well to help out wherever I can. You have absolutely no idea how much I do. Example: Lets take 2014 so far. January month has all but come and gone and yet my wife is yet to clean the house. Yet the house is clean daily... Yes... I do all that and more. Sweep; mop; dishes; laundry; kids. The only thing I simply cant do (and I've tried) is ironing. lol.
You've heard of people walking around on eggshells to avoid starting something. Well that's been me for the last 5 or so months. I've been giving her the "space" she needs so that she can "work on us". Now she didnt ask for this "space" but I thought that I'd let her have it so that she could start fixing herself so that we could get fixed eventually.

A few months ago, she admitted that the issues surrounding our sex life lies with her. Then she said she'd get us some counseling so that we can work through it but that I shouldn't pressure her about it. I said ok. Another thing was that she wanted was for her to choose the counselor. I asked her a week or two ago about how her search for a counselor is coming and she said she spoke to the counselor the week before but he was booked. She was supposed to go back to make an appointment, to make an appointment -Yes, you read right- last week. All I said was "OK". Last week came and went and I'm still waiting on her to give me details about this alleged appointment.
I've told her already that this is not how I imagined my marriage in a million years while growing up.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Janky said:


> You could have 100 talks and its not going to make a difference in the world.
> 
> If you havent already, start by talking about how the situation makes YOU feel, focus on you.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Mulligan said:


> My guess, in a nutshell, is that your wife just isn't attracted to you. I don't know that any amount of talking is going to change that. I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I think it is common in marriages, particularly after a couple kids come into the picture.
> 
> How do you compare to the person you were before you got married. You say you're not overweight, but have you nonetheless put on weight, or are you significantly less fit? Did you used to be more upbeat and fun to be around? Did you used to take her out more to dinner or movies, and now that is gone? Having kids can kill your fun/social life with your wife, and that can kill your sex life (it happened to my marriage).
> 
> ...


I haven't put on much weight. I generally run every day and workout at the gym about 3-4 days a week. I'm healthy and in good physical condition...

Did I become bitter because of the lack of sex or was the lack of sex a result of my bitterness??? Chicken/Egg/First??? 
I'm still the same guy I was before marriage. Or at least try to be but she's not into alot of the stuff she was when we were still dating. We were both pretty wild back then. She's toned it down a ton. With that, she's also dismissed her sense of humor. It's tough trying to make someone laugh when they seem indifferent after you've tried. :slap:
This marriage is draining me so much. I dont know what she wants most of the time coz it changes all the time.:crazy:


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> I posted this in July 2012. To this day, we are still in a mode that rejection is very rare. After 20 plus years of marriage and a long drought in the bedroom, she finally came to understand that my desire for sex was an important part of my happiness in the marriage. Her previously high drive had died and I heard many of the same things many do. "I could live without it forever" Well, I can't and won't. She is now and has been since this conversation an engaged and enthusiastic lover. And I have continued to provide her with the emotional attention she desires in our relationship. It is very much a two way street. The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them. This worked for us but I wouldn't guarantee it will work for all. At the time I did it I was aware of the possibility that her response could be "Go **** yourself!"


Well done and Congrats! I hope you guys keep it up!!!

Scheduled sex has never been a thing for her. I know for a fact that her response to a request like that from me would be that I'm just looking out for myself and just want to get laid. She'd probably laugh in my face and then tell me to go fcuk myself. :rofl:

Hey... what do I have to lose right??? I'll give it a go. :rofl:
I wont push my luck with the 60 day challenge though. I'll tone it down to 30 

Thank for your reply and best of luck to you and yours. :smthumbup:


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Not to sound negative, but you only have two choices, either focus on the good parts of the marriage & forget a regular sex life or divorce her.
> For some reason, she has fallen out of love with you, like my wife of 18 years has with me. They can tell you nothing is wrong, still be happy & even still say they love you and think they mean it, but sex is the ultimate barometer.
> Sadly talks, letters etc won't change anything, I've tried them all.
> The good news is, if you still love your wife & are determined to stay, your sex drive will diminish with time & it won't be a big deal anymore.


Wow!!! Your last sentence literally made me stop. Read it again and again! Wow...
Funny, she was getting dressed this morning while I was in bed, I stole a looksy and... NOTHING. I didnt feel anything down there where I should be feeling anything. I hope the drive i sstill there. Fcuk.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I guess you're referring to me.
> 
> My desire for my husband did tank for ten years after we became parents. The reasons were myriad and complex, but I think I am different in that I'm actually a woman with a high sex drive. I had something to find my way back to.
> 
> ...


My wife was HD too while dating. I can honestly say that ever since we got married, she has been LD. NEVER EVER in our marriage has she been HD. There was literally a day and night change from her side.

Your threads are such an inspiration to me. I've read them many times already. I wish she would be proactive and pick up her phone and Google something. We got her a SmartPhone a couple months ago and she hasnt used the Internet function once yet!
I'll say again... Your threads and your story has been an inspiration. One can only but hope. I wish she'd stumble across your posts and have a light bulb moment. But hey... I can dream cant I!?

Thank You for taking time out to read and reply here!:smthumbup:


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Lets back up.
> 
> What is the marriage like outside of the context of her thinking there is something wrong with you for wanting to discuss, let alone actually have sex?
> 
> What are you like as a husband? Does she resent you? Does she respect you? Does she love you?


In general, we seem happy I guess. Big house in the suburbs. Two cars. Two great kids.
Out in public we look great together. Inside the bedroom it's a different story though.
When I bring up our sex life then I'm bringing it up "Again" according to her. So, technically, she doesn't want me bringing it up. I do, however, bring it up whenever I feel she might become content with my silence and interpret it as acceptance.

IMHO I think I'm a decent husband considering what I have to work with. The "mechanical husband stuff" gets done on time. I dont feel comfortable doing nice things for her anymore like surprising her with flowers or gifts as she, straight off the bat would say: "Dont think this is gna get you laid."
It feels like she sits there with a clipboard and marks off all the good things I'm doing and tally's up the points for the day. Then takes out the clipboard tomorrow again and repeats the whole score tally up. Then, waits and sees how long it takes me to fcuk up again so that she can turn the clock on the "Sex ETA" back again. The only way I fcuk up is when I think it's safe to try and initiate. Then she'd say something along the lines of: "You see, I knew you were buttering me up for this with the dinner last week. It's taken you 2 weeks to go back to your old ways".

WTF!?!?!?!?

Oh, and does she respect and love me?
She says she does - But I havent felt love in years.
Does she resent me?
It sure feels that way.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

OP your thread is so terribly sad  I feel so bad for you.

Am I correct in reading that you've not had sex with your wife for five months??? 

Kids/stress/work/home/sport/tired - whatever are not good enough reasons for continually denying the person that you're supposed to love, the intimate connection of sex - something that is presumed will occur regularly when you take your wedding vows.

It is extremely selfish and arrogant to put the kabosh on a big part of a marital relationship.

Next time you get her on her own ask her directly "I have needs. You're the only person in the world who can help me with this. You choose not to, so can you please tell me how I am supposed to solve this problem?"

Wow, such a selfish spouse - and I'd say the same thing if the situation was reversed.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

frusdil said:


> OP your thread is so terribly sad  I feel so bad for you.
> 
> Am I correct in reading that you've not had sex with your wife for five months???
> 
> ...


Yip... 5 month drought.
We went through a 13 month drought already too. An 8 month drought also. And a few 3 - 6 month droughts. 5 months is easy. :rofl:

Thanx for your concern.
Much appreciated.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Relationships function based upon a dynamic. There simply comes into being a model for how things operate and how you interact.

Your dynamic is utterly broken.

This isn't even about you 'earning' sex any more. You need to see that. This isn't about getting your wife to want you ... because it is clear as day, she doesn't. And she has worked herself into a state where she uses your behavior to reinforce the notion that she doesn't want you. 

The dynamic is now about score-keeping. In this dynamic she keeps your score card. You believe that if you earn enough pluses, you will be rewarded with love and sex. But the point you are missing is that she has no intention of rewarding you. None. You're like a dog wagging his tail wondering when he gets the treat. And occasionally you bark ... but that's ok, because she can just keep you wagging your tail.

'Talking' about it will accomplish nothing. After all, there is nothing to discuss. She is content with this dysfunction, and she presumes you are content with it as well. Because you continue to accept it. It cannot and will not change. Unless ... unless you are prepared to deliver consequences.

So ... there are stories like Amplexor's, where he made it clear that if the dynamic didn't change the marriage was at risk, and they were able to resolve the issue and rebuild intimacy.

There are also stories like mine, where I made it clear that the marriage was at risk, and it simply entrenched her position in that dysfunctional 'game'. The consequence was separation, and invariably divorce. 

Regardless of the outcome, you need to be prepared to deliver on the consequences.

If your wife respects you, you have a shot. If all she has is resentment, you have a very long road to walk, and sex won't be part of the equation any time soon.

If you want to change the dynamic, something needs to be put at risk ... something she doesn't want to lose. And that may, or may not be your marriage. If you aren't prepared to find out, you'll just keep wagging your tail, and occasionally bark or whine a little bit.

You want to save your marriage? You need to be willing to possibly lose it. 

As others have clearly stated, you need to take control. Make the friggin' counseling appointment. Tell her when it is. If she argues or refuses to go, well then she was never serious about in the first place, was she?

You are purely reactive at this point. One way or another you have to become proactive.




wannabe said:


> In general, we seem happy I guess. Big house in the suburbs. Two cars. Two great kids.
> Out in public we look great together. Inside the bedroom it's a different story though.
> When I bring up our sex life then I'm bringing it up "Again" according to her. So, technically, she doesn't want me bringing it up. I do, however, bring it up whenever I feel she might become content with my silence and interpret it as acceptance.
> 
> ...


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Re: Initiating "The Talk"...*



wannabe said:


> Wow!!! Your last sentence literally made me stop. Read it again and again! Wow...
> Funny, she was getting dressed this morning while I was in bed, I stole a looksy and... NOTHING. I didnt feel anything down there where I should be feeling anything. I hope the drive i sstill there. Fcuk.


I'm sure the drive is still there, it's like convincing yourself you no longer want something because you know you can't have it. It is your hearts protection mechanism.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Here's the best advice I can give, based on my situation & others like me. Unless you are utterly miserable, just eliminate all thoughts of sex. Forget the "us" talks & show just enough affection that still tells her you love her. This approach won't win you any praise from the "be a man & grow a pair" crowd, but that really translates to "put out or get out", and if that is your reasoning, like already said, you have to be willing to risk losing everything.
Do I want a normal sex life with my wife? Of course I do, but I'm not throwing everything else good away because of it. We get along great but we're not close, even though she still maintains there is nothing wrong & a lack of intimacy will kill a marriage & my mindset is the marriage is gone, just two people who love each other that share a home & bed. Our idea of what a true marriage should be changed meaning for both of us at some point??
The bottomline is survival & you are the only one that knows what you can & can't take?


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy."





wannabe said:


> Scheduled sex has never been a thing for her. I know for a fact that her response to a request like that from me would be that I'm just looking out for myself and just want to get laid. She'd probably laugh in my face and then tell me to go fcuk myself. :rofl:


Please re-read. This was not and is not, scheduled sex. "when I want".

I agree that there is a risk factor of the FU response but in our case I was willing to risk it. And this was not a macho, threatening conversation. It was very calm with me stating my needs and how I thought we could fix it. As Deej states, the dynamics were out of whack. I was investing a lot of my emotional energy on meeting her needs but she was not meeting one of mine. I don't want this to be read as a reward/punishment scenario but more of a mutual willingness to do what makes your spouse happy. When you receive what you desire in your relationship you are happy to return it in kind.

As far as the "just want to get laid" statement, I would say my wife looked at my advances for many years like that. Part of our discussion that night was "I am sorry if this makes you uncomfortable but I will not apologize for desiring my wife." That was a deer in the headlights moment for her. She began to see that this was not about me getting my rocks off. It was about my desire for sexual intimacy with the woman that I love. 

This conversation two years ago turned our sex life around. It was a watershed moment in that aspect of our marriage. I hope others can find the same success. 

Good luck.


----------



## Mulligan (Nov 24, 2013)

wannabe said:


> I haven't put on much weight. I generally run every day and workout at the gym about 3-4 days a week. I'm healthy and in good physical condition...
> 
> Did I become bitter because of the lack of sex or was the lack of sex a result of my bitterness??? Chicken/Egg/First???
> I'm still the same guy I was before marriage. Or at least try to be but she's not into alot of the stuff she was when we were still dating. We were both pretty wild back then. She's toned it down a ton. With that, she's also dismissed her sense of humor. It's tough trying to make someone laugh when they seem indifferent after you've tried. :slap:
> This marriage is draining me so much. I dont know what she wants most of the time coz it changes all the time.:crazy:


It sounds like you've done a great job of holding things up on your end. That was an area where I failed. My wife changed after we had kids, and I changed in response to her, and we both ended up with people we didn't really like. In your case, it sounds like you're doing all you can, so I think my experience doesn't apply very well to your situation. 

But I still think you should work on the bitterness and resentment. It is an understandable reaction to your situation (I was bitter and resentful too), but it's going to eat at you regardless of whether it's your fault or hers. Getting out with friends from time to time (or whatever makes you happy these days) may not fix your marriage, but if you can find some other positive experiences while you work on your marriage, you'll be better able to deal with the problems you face. This is something you can control and do *right now*, unlike getting through to your wife with "the talk" (although I hope you find a way to do that too).


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

wannabe said:


> I havent tried writing it down yet. I shall give that one a go next time.
> Thanks!
> 
> I'm not sure if it's a mismatched need for sex as much as an "I think sex is dirty and you're vile for wanting me to engage in such awful behavior" - problem. :lol:
> At least thats how I see it...


You said you where both "pretty wild" back then.

So I do not see how she can be serious about you being vile for simply wanting to have sex. Is this something you are just inferring from other things she says or her actions?

Seems like you have stopped liking her much as a person and you two might be better off split.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

When a marriage has been sexless for months even years, how can a spouse even sit and eat dinner together? Just sitting there in sullen silence would be a form of H*ll. And if the dinner conversation is great, what then you creep into be and affection is forbidden, even hugging and kissing.

Do children sense this misery? I think they do.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I think children do sense this, they may not know you're not having sex, but they see & feel how you interact with each other. Being sexless is hard, but being completely affectionless is impossible & hurts the kids. If you are just sharing a house, better to live separately or you will deteriorate quickly, while they watch.


----------



## 41362 (Dec 14, 2012)

wannabe said:


> Wow!!! Your last sentence literally made me stop. Read it again and again! Wow...
> Funny, she was getting dressed this morning while I was in bed, *I stole a looksy *and... NOTHING. I didnt feel anything down there where I should be feeling anything. I hope the drive i sstill there. Fcuk.


I hope this was a simple figure of speech, and not an acknowledgement that your wife doesn't even want you to see her naked.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wannabe said:


> I'd like to at least have the opportunity to actually land a punch before calling it quits or drawing lines. She's just been bobbing and weaving and I'm hoping to land a good punch soon.


So, when you said you've tried everything, you were lying, right? Sorry, it's just always a bit frustrating when guys come on here complaining, then they take all of the things that actually work off the table. Right now it seems that you're reinforcing her behavior.

Something I find kind of funny about your situation (funny as in strange, not humorous): You say that you don't bring it up until you become concerned that your silence will be interpreted as acceptance. But we all know that when a person's words don't match their actions there is a cognitive dissonance and when that happens a person subconsciously decides to listen to the actions and ignore the words. So you say something to show her that there is no acceptance. But your actions scream acceptance loud and clear. So she correctly ignores your words and relies on your actions that you're actually ok with things as they are. No consequences, no stress for her. Just every so often you "tell" her that it's not ok, and she ignores you because you don't really mean it (according to your actions).



wannabe said:


> Good day Good People of TAM.
> I've initiated having "The Talk" more times that I care to remember. It always ends up in an argument. This got me thinking. What if I'm doing it wrong?


What you're doing wrong is having "The Talk" yet another time. Figure out the actions needed so that your actions speak for themselves. That is, assuming you're not "all talk".


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Relationships function based upon a dynamic. There simply comes into being a model for how things operate and how you interact.
> 
> Your dynamic is utterly broken.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> You said you where both "pretty wild" back then.
> 
> So I do not see how she can be serious about you being vile for simply wanting to have sex. Is this something you are just inferring from other things she says or her actions?
> 
> Seems like you have stopped liking her much as a person and you two might be better off split.


I dont know.
I remember, toward th end of last year, one evening when I was again trying to have "The Talk" or at least get her involved in the discussion, she said something along the lines of ex being dirty. I was like WTF!?!?!? and she quickly retreated and said something else. I kept on pushing for her to tell me exactly what she meant by that, but thats when she started ignoring me again and started staring blankly into space. 

I know what needs to happen. I know that we probably wont be married forever. I know that there will come a time when I can no longer take it and I'll bail. But I'd like for US, BOTH OF US, to at least give it a go before we bail on this marriage.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> When a marriage has been sexless for months even years, how can a spouse even sit and eat dinner together? Just sitting there in sullen silence would be a form of H*ll. And if the dinner conversation is great, what then you creep into be and affection is forbidden, even hugging and kissing.
> 
> Do children sense this misery? I think they do.


Yeah... thats pretty much how things have been going at my house lately. Everything seems great on the outside, but as soon as we step into that bedroom, things change drastically. She turns into another person. she becomes very withdrawn the closer to bedtime it gets.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

41362 said:


> I hope this was a simple figure of speech, and not an acknowledgement that your wife doesn't even want you to see her naked.


It was just a figure of speech.
Over the last couple of months, I've been making sure that I dont walk in on her in the bath or while she's dressing. Seeing her naked just is all I need to make sure that I "try" sometime during that day anyway. So as to avoid "making a scene", I steer clear of her nakedness. I get especially pi$$ed off when she calls me to wash her back or to bring a towel into the bathroom.

This really is a fcuked up situation. alot of things people are saying to me sounds so simple. Sounds like the right and only logical thing to do in such a situation. But, as in many other stories on TAM, I see how the refuser has, over the years, conditioned the mind of their spouse into thinking/believing that the life they're living and the way they're bring treated is acceptable. There are so many things I need to "unlearn".


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So, when you said you've tried everything, you were lying, right? Sorry, it's just always a bit frustrating when guys come on here complaining, then they take all of the things that actually work off the table. Right now it seems that you're reinforcing her behavior.
> 
> Something I find kind of funny about your situation (funny as in strange, not humorous): You say that you don't bring it up until you become concerned that your silence will be interpreted as acceptance. But we all know that when a person's words don't match their actions there is a cognitive dissonance and when that happens a person subconsciously decides to listen to the actions and ignore the words. So you say something to show her that there is no acceptance. But your actions scream acceptance loud and clear. So she correctly ignores your words and relies on your actions that you're actually ok with things as they are. No consequences, no stress for her. Just every so often you "tell" her that it's not ok, and she ignores you because you don't really mean it (according to your actions).
> 
> ...


When I said "I've tried everything", I meant that I've tried so many times to get her to talk about whats going on in her mind. By no means did I mean to imply that I've tried everything in the book. I've tried the gentle approach; the "give you space" approach; the "being mad approach"; the "not making it all about sex approach"; the "lets totally forget about sex and lets get to know each other again approach"; etc.

What I havent done, and it was mentioned here, is to write her a letter.

Thank You for your response.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

So, now that I've replied to almost everyone who responded, I need to add that besides all the BS stories and excuses coming form her side, I feel that there is something deeper that she isnt sharing with me. Something that she is keeping in. Maybe I did something, or did not do something that was so bad in her eyes that she feels this is punishment for that. I dont know. Or maybe she did something so bad that this is her way of dealing with it.
The way I read her actions, is the same way I'd expect to be treated if I maybe cheated on her. Or if I was abusing her physically or emotionally. Or something.
Sometimes I think that maybe she has cheated on me in the recent past and doesn't know how to deal with the guilt and this is her way of dealing. It sometimes seems like, when she's just laying there staring blankly into space when I'm trying to find out what the matter is, that she is trying to figure out how to tell me that she has cheated on me. 
Now, before anyone suggests that she might have. She hasn't.
That's just the how bad the situation hurts.

I think that there is something so much deeper going on in her mind that she has no idea how to word it. Fcuk. I really dont know anymore.
I haven't tried to have sex with my wife in almost 5 months. What I have been trying, is to get to the bottom of it all so that it can be fixed and we can start fresh. But without a willing participant on the other side, this tends to be so much harder than it should be.

I thank all of you for your replies and pearls of wisdom.
I think I'll give the letter thing a go because what usually happens when I try and have The Talk, and she's not speaking, I get angry and then usually dont get to say what I intended to say. It all gets messed up then. Also, I'm man enough to admit, that I cant argue for sh!t. My wife, to me detriment, is a master arguer. She remembers the smallest of details. Things that I'd overlook. But she'd end up turning the whole discussion into an argument and over the most littlest of things. Then when she's had enough arguing, she shuts down. Stares blankly into space and ignores me like I'm not even in the room.
One thing I never could understand is that she'd wake up the next morning and act as if the previous night's argument never happened. That freaks me out even more. :scratchhead:


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

wannabe said:


> Good day Good People of TAM.
> I've initiated having "The Talk" more times that I care to remember. It always ends up in an argument. This got me thinking. What if I'm doing it wrong? What if my approach in trying to have yet another "Talk" is all wrong?
> I've tried to have this talk with her so many times already and it always ends in an argument. Is my approach wrong? Maybe suggest another approach?
> What generally happens is that I'd get tired of the status quo of our non existent sex life and will initiate the talk. It will start out with asking her what's wrong. Her response is to stare blankly at a wall or out a window or to ignore me or to sigh and then apply all of the above. I'll pursue the matter again and shed first start off by saying nothing is wrong. To which I'd respond with a, "no something is definitely wrong, since we haven't been intimate at all in X amounts of months". She then gets defensive and the argument would start.
> ...



What worked for my wifee and I, was us taking the 5 love languages quiz and comparing the results. She knows my main love language and I know hers. This made a big difference for us.

For my wifee, her size got to a point, she had enough and wants to get in shape and lose as much weight as possible. She hit that I must do something now and never do anything point in her life. You can't make someone change. It's when they are ready to do so. Some change easily and quickly like myself and some like my wifee find it hard.

Also, raising two kids is a job in itself and draining. Her desire for sex will usually not be there. Plus there's unwanted body weight from the pregnancies, her hormones may still be off (low sex drive), and there's pre menopause. If you guys had no kids, would her sex drive be high? If yes, then having kids changed things.

A co worker has a gf that recently had their son and she lost all the baby weight and is in fantastic shape. She could be a model. Anyway, if he doesn't want sex for 1 week, stress, work, life, she literally gets mad at him!!! She is HD and he is average drive you see. So her having their son didn't change her sex drive much and they're 26+ ish years old.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Believing that there is something you can say or do differently that will change your spouse or thinking there is something you did or did not do seems to be common. Probably some medical term for it. 

But it seems that in love as in war the pain is kind of random and it just happens. But anyway it seems like there are two other things you have not tried: 

separating -sometimes that is about the only thing that will change their behavior. 

accept -get fully on board with the no or low sex life that she wants


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

As I said a page back - appeal to her nurturing side. Describe what this has done to you. Talk about how it was when you were first together. Offer all to have that woman back.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MissScarlett said:


> As I said a page back - appeal to her nurturing side. Describe what this has done to you. Talk about how it was when you were first together. Offer all to have that woman back.


I'm not going to say don't do the letter. But I will say, that if she has lost all attraction for you, and you do try to appeal to her nurturing side, her response will be about as nurturing as a female praying mantis.

It's a bizarre phenomenon, but I've seen it first-hand, and I've seen it in other relationships. The harder you try to be 'nice' and loving and supportive, without any boundaries or deal-breakers, and it's like throwing gas on a fire. She'll use it as fuel for resentment rather than seeing as a wake-up call to save her marriage.

If you give her a letter, make it brief. Don't focus on her behavior. Focus on what you feel, and what action you are prepared to take.

"Do you want to remain married? Do you love me? If the answer is yes, I need to understand why you find it acceptable to treat me in a manner that you would find unacceptable if the roles were reversed.
To be clear, I love you. I would like to preserve and rebuild our marriage. I hope you will choose to join me. If not, I hope you are prepared to have a different conversation."


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

techmom said:


> This is so true, so true. Men forget this, after kids sex seems like another task to complete. Even when having an orgasm, it is a drain on our already depleted energy. When having sex, you need to be physically and mentally present, you can't just zone out. So, the wife who would rather play on the computer instead of having sex just wants to zone out in front of the computer. Because the computer won't mind, it won't complain about it being "boring".
> 
> Evidently, men place their whole emotional being into their sex life, so it is that important for them. Men can't see where it takes so much effort. You just gotta trust us when we say that it does.


I took a one year sabbatical so my wife could finish her Doctorate. During that time, I was the sole caregiver of three little girls.

The four of us had a ball. Even with the complete and total absence of sex in the marriage, it was one of the most happy, joyful, carefree years of my life. 

Yes, taking care of a house and three children is a lot of work. When it's portrayed as something so horribly draining that it robs one of a pleasure that even the family cat enjoys, it comes across at best, as someone who has lost their way and at worst, as resentment towards that responsibility too.

Or am I just being an obtuse male? :scratchhead:


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I took a one year sabbatical so my wife could finish her Doctorate. During that time, I was the sole caregiver of three little girls.
> 
> The four of us had a ball. Even with the complete and total absence of sex in the marriage, it was one of the most happy, joyful, carefree years of my life.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're being obtuse. Your situation was temporary for one, and it was only for a year.

It is a privilege to be a stay at home parent but it is draining. When my oldest was in second grade I called a friend and said I needed an intervention. She asked why. I told her I just got biggest sense of accomplishment because all of my husbands shirts were clean and ironed! It's those kinds of things that smack you upside the head, they add up after a few years and you realize you're losing yourself, the vital integral part of you that once up son a time had something important to do and something important to say.

There are no team dinners for stay at homes. There are no awards, no paychecks, no promotions, no time off, no vacations, no sick days. There are lots and lots headaches and heartaches and difficulties. We do our best to "not sweat the small stuff" but that is a difficult thing to accomplish when our entire day IS small stuff.

I'm not complaining here. Just trying to explain. I used to watch the working moms standing at the bus stop in their suits and be envious that they were dressed and pressed and had somewhere to go that required such clothing.

But then my kids got older and I went to work doing something I loved. That didn't work out too well because I discovered I was HORRIBLE as a working mom and could not find a balance. The guilt was killing me!

So now I am back to SAHM status and now I really don't sweat the small stuff. Of course, being older has helped too.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

wannabe said:


> So,It sometimes seems like, when she's just laying there staring blankly into space when I'm trying to find out what the matter is,
> I think that there is something so much deeper going on in her mind that she has no idea how to word it. Fcuk. I really dont know anymore.


From reading your post, my gut reaction is that she has emotionally disconnected from you. She does not show any interest in intimacy, she is in her own little world and shows no interest in working on the marriage. The status quo is just fine for her. At some time she may stray or become a WAW. Before you can fix the sex issues you need to address this one. There are scads of materials out there to get ideas on reconnecting with your spouse. Personally, The Five Love Languages is one I recommend regularly. If your love languages are different, this can help you understand and improve. I would consider it required reading for all couples.

Some one very wise here gave me a wedge of sage that really helped me understand where my wife was when the marriage was in deep trouble. "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference."


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Very much agree, and very well stated.



Amplexor said:


> From reading your post, my gut reaction is that she has emotionally disconnected from you. She does not show any interest in intimacy, she is in her own little world and shows no interest in working on the marriage. The status quo is just fine for her. At some time she may stray or become a WAW. Before you can fix the sex issues you need to address this one. There are scads of materials out there to get ideas on reconnecting with your spouse. Personally, The Five Love Languages is one I recommend regularly. If your love languages are different, this can help you understand and improve. I would consider it required reading for all couples.
> 
> Some one very wise here gave me a wedge of sage that really helped me understand where my wife was when the marriage was in deep trouble. "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference."


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I think you're absolutely right about her living in her own little world. I've called her on it many times before. I'll give the 5 languages of love a go too but I'm not sure how well she'd take to it, if at all even. She'd probably read it, then gather that the literature is "on to her" and she'd probably quit before the end. Then she'd more than likely tell me that I've purposely found the literature in order to belittle her. 
I feel there's no winning with her. She really seems like she has no clue as to what's happening around her. Calls me "babe" and "honey" and "big daddy" all the time in texts but can't utter those names to me to my face. 
She could be suffering from depression and not even know it. What she could be depressed about, I have no clue. 
This is not the woman I dated and married. Makes me sad to my core to be living this life. This almost mimics the life I had growing up. Watched and heard my dad be me more times than I remember. And she's turned into my mom. 
Funny thing is, while dating, we always said that we'd never turn out like my parents did. And yet we have. When I tell her that we're now my parents she gets angry as fcuk but does nothing to counter the direction we're moving into. She seems totally oblivious to the fact or the issues in our marriage. 
This goes so much more deeper than the sex, or absence thereof. Something is broken inside of her and she won't let me in. 
Like I've said before, it isn't and hasn't been about the sex for a long time anymore. I'm trying to get to the bottom of what's really wrong with her. If she's no longer attracted to me and is grown up enough to admit this, then I'd walk away gladly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Just be friendly toward her with no expectations & when she goes into her little world, then go into yours. Cut out anything related to marriage, talks, letters, everything and see how she reacts? If she no longer has feelings for you & suddenly you act like you're okay with it, will drive her nuts. At the same time it will relieve pressure from you. Sometimes it is good to emotionally just step away & just be friends, no secret agendas etc.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Just be friendly toward her with no expectations & when she goes into her little world, then go into yours. Cut out anything related to marriage, talks, letters, everything and see how she reacts? If she no longer has feelings for you & suddenly you act like you're okay with it, will drive her nuts. At the same time it will relieve pressure from you. Sometimes it is good to emotionally just step away & just be friends, no secret agendas etc.


Thank You!

I've actually started doing this today, well sort of...
Greeted her with a smile on my face when I got home from work this morning and also brought her some coffee and a muffin from the coffee shop she likes. Complimented her dinner tonight again also.
I havent done any of the above in such a long time coz of the resentment; anger and betrayal I've been feeling as of late.
It felt good. Less heavy on the shoulders. lol

Still gna do the letter thing eventually. Maybe put it on the backburner for a month or so while I see how this progresses.


----------



## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

You talk about her ignoring you and staring off into space/blank wall/out the window when you are trying to tell her how unhappy you are. Is the her usual M.O.? That would get old for me really quickly.

You say in your opening post that your wife has zero drive and is healthy. Is this a contradiction? I don't know. But if I had a zero drive I would be doing everything in my power to rectify it. Maybe its a resentment/relationship issue or a health issue. I think you've been very patient and understanding in opening up a dialogue with her - but it sounds like she is thwarting your attempts at meaningful communication. I'd be beyond frustrated.

I don't know about laying on the 'nice' to a spouse who wouldn't even communicate or care about how miserable I am.

How far do you think you're willing to go with this issue? What's your bottom line .... counselling, sex therapy, she starts talking you listen, soft 180, temporary separation?


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

FizzBomb said:


> You talk about her ignoring you and staring off into space/blank wall/out the window when you are trying to tell her how unhappy you are. Is the her usual M.O.? That would get old for me really quickly.
> 
> You say in your opening post that your wife has zero drive and is healthy. Is this a contradiction? I don't know. But if I had a zero drive I would be doing everything in my power to rectify it. Maybe its a resentment/relationship issue or a health issue. I think you've been very patient and understanding in opening up a dialogue with her - but it sounds like she is thwarting your attempts at meaningful communication. I'd be beyond frustrated.
> 
> ...


Yip, her usual M O is to start staring and yes, it does pi$$ me off big time. 
Yes she is physically healthy and fit too. So, realistically speaking, we should be "at it" more than 6 times a year but we're not. Maybe she has fallen out of love with me. Maybe she isn't attracted to me anymore. Maybe she is mad at me and resents me. I really don't know. What I do know, and what I've told her too is that I don't read minds and am sh!t at reading between the lines. Told her that if she wants to let me know something, COME OUT AND USE YOUR WORRDS. 

I have no idea how far I'm willing to take this. I just know that ATM, I can't act yet as I don't know enough about what's going on with her. I'm not sure how long I'm gna try and work at it either. There will come a day when I might just decide "fcuk it, I'm done" but I'm not there yet. I'm frustrated as hell don't get me wrong. But as mentioned in the thread somewhere, someone suggested I take a sabbatical from "trying to fix it" for a short while and just live a little. This thing's been driving me mad for so long. I need a break from it all too. 
I'm just so tired of being bitter most of the time. I'll pick up "the fight" sometime soon again. Going to try and forget about sex and whatever else is happening inside her head for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wannabe said:


> This goes so much more deeper than the sex, or absence thereof. Something is broken inside of her and she won't let me in.
> Like I've said before, it isn't and hasn't been about the sex for a long time anymore. I'm trying to get to the bottom of what's really wrong with her. If she's no longer attracted to me and is grown up enough to admit this, then I'd walk away gladly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I keep reading through this thread, OP, and I recognize every observation you make about your wife, and I recognize your pain and confusion. You are describing me and my husband and my marriage during ten years of emotional disconnect.

Something is broken inside of her, yes, but don't get too attached to the idea that she knows what it is and how to fix it. It is a terrible feeling to lose desire and attraction for your husband, but still feel that you love him. It is confusing and isolating and no matter how much you TRY to drum up those old feelings . . . they are simply gone. They are gone because you look at your husband and you see someone who needs you, not someone who wants you. You look at your husband and you see a man who cannot be happy, and blames you for it. You look at your husband, and he is focusing his behavior around trying to fix you, when what you really want is for HIM TO FIX HIMSELF. He's not going out with his friends, he's not able to focus on work, he's grumpy with the kids, he's not finding things to do in his spare time that make him happy. You find him brooding, and always, always watching you, trying to figure you out. WHY CANT HE LET YOU ALONE AND GET HIS **** TOGETHER so you can desire him again?

Because it can't really be you? Can it? Where is the man you married? Where is the confident man who has friends and hobbies and was a leader and didn't back down the moment you got pissy with him? Where is the man who told you NO? Where is the man who let you rage and scream and let it all out . . . and then hold you while you cried? Instead you have this man who looks at you sadly, pleadingly, constantly expecting an explanation that YOU JUST DONT HAVE. 

And the thought that he could even want you sexually, when you don't want him? Incontrovertible evidence that you are meat to him. A way to get off. How can he love you in that way when you don't respect him, when you disdain his weakness, when his touch makes you shrink inside? If he can want sex with you when you so HATE what he's become, how, how can he say it's because he loves you? No, it's because he loves sex, he has an itch that he needs to scratch, that it all, and you are the convenient body. 

Oh wait . . . . but you don't say _those_ things to him . . . because you cant. You can't because you mind will not let you form those thoughts. You cannot go there in your mind, you cannot. 

It's resentment for the changes life has wrought on both of you. It's not her fault, it's not your fault. Resentment happens. The difficulty is owning it and understanding that, although it's not your fault that you ended up full of it, ONLY YOU can do something about it. 

I think about relationship resentment as being like the baby weight after pregnancy. You both were responsible for the pregnancy, but the woman ends up with the weight to lose. You cant do it for her. She knows this, and if she wants to restore her body to the way it was before pregnancy, she will do the work. But it's harder to recognize resentment in that fashion: because it's emotional and not physical, we can shift the responsibility for "the fix" to our partner. We fight against owing the responsibility to "lose the baby weight." So we just sit in it day after day, month after month, year after year and it grows and grows and grows just as surly as extra weight will if it is not addressed. 

Until your wife can accept that "something is broken inside of her" that ONLY she can fix, I think you will have limited success. 

I don't recommend marriage counseling. I recommend individual counseling for her. It's nothing she should be ashamed of. It's a mental health issue: even if she isn't willing to purge her resentment for you or for the sake of her marriage, she should do it for herself. She doesn't realize it, but it is greatly affecting her happiness and her outlook in general. 

And I also recommend individual counseling for yourself, OP. Fight hard to keep resentment at bay. Fight hard to be mentally healthy. Fight hard to be focused on things besides your sex life. After my husband made the conscious effort to work on himself, to find happiness without me . . . THAT is when I felt a small, a very small shift in myself that said, "ok, so let me take a little look at myself here . . . " I saw a glimmer of the man I fell in love with, and I decided he was worth the effort.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt.

That was painful to read in some ways. Do you think what you described is female nature in and of itself or a learned behavior, perhaps cultural?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I keep reading through this thread, OP, and I recognize every observation you make about your wife, and I recognize your pain and confusion. You are describing me and my husband and my marriage during ten years of emotional disconnect.
> 
> Something is broken inside of her, yes, but don't get too attached to the idea that she knows what it is and how to fix it. It is a terrible feeling to lose desire and attraction for your husband, but still feel that you love him. It is confusing and isolating and no matter how much you TRY to drum up those old feelings . . . they are simply gone. They are gone because you look at your husband and you see someone who needs you, not someone who wants you. You look at your husband and you see a man who cannot be happy, and blames you for it. You look at your husband, and he is focusing his behavior around trying to fix you, when what you really want is for HIM TO FIX HIMSELF. He's not going out with his friends, he's not able to focus on work, he's grumpy with the kids, he's not finding things to do in his spare time that make him happy. You find him brooding, and always, always watching you, trying to figure you out. WHY CANT HE LET YOU ALONE AND GET HIS **** TOGETHER so you can desire him again?
> 
> ...


This may be painful for the guys to read, but this is SO TRUE.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> GettingIt.
> 
> That was painful to read in some ways. Do you think what you described is female nature in and of itself or a learned behavior, perhaps cultural?


I don't know. All I can say is that I am on the other side of it now, and am able to see clearly what I could not see from within that dynamic. 

I see so many wounded men on here who have the belief that their wives damn well know what the problem is, they are just too happy with the way things are to fix it. 

I guarantee you, I was not happy.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Gettingit,

You are very generous to have shared your story (i've read quite a bit of your thread). I am not sure that waiting and wating is necessary.

Wannabe simplest solution is to be prepared to end his marriage but to do it in a self confident, kind and generous manner. By that I mean that he should file for divorce. Not with a lawyer to create a big expense, but to get the do-it-yourself papers and fill them out. With most of the blanks filled in, he should take a Friday evening and present it to her after dinner.

He should not be resentful, angry or sullen. All he has to say is we should get divorced because we don't love each other in a healthy way. If she shrugs her shoulders and agrees, well, there you have it. She doesn't give shxt.

If she is surprized and upset, he can say well, I don't love you but I am not going to live in sexless marriage. If she resists agreeing to divorce he can say that she can go to IC but the divorce needs to filed. If she locates her libido before the divorce is final, great. They can stop it.

If she doesn't initiate sex or give a green light, then the divorce will liberate him.

During this waiting period, Wannabe can be happy because he cannot lose. His wife cannot lose either. Either they repair their marriage and are happier, or they end it and are happier.

Read Bagdon´s thread.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Gettingit,
> 
> You are very generous to have shared your story (i've read quite a bit of your thread). I am not sure that waiting and wating is necessary.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you. My husband could have had a divorce any time he asked for it. I would have given it to him, and we would be divorced now. Maybe we would be re-partnered and happy, maybe not. Maybe those ten years, to some people, wouldn't be worth it to achieve what my husband and I have now. We are deeply grateful that we made it through and, as a result of that pain, have a relationship that we never could have comprehended or envisioned, even during our most blissful days. 

This is a decision to be made by individuals. If the OP is willing to accept that his wife will agree (perhaps quite happily) to divorce, then by all means, he can serve the papers as you describe. His wife might respond as I would NOT have and agree to make an effort to find her libido. 

I don't put my story out there to be prescriptive, only descriptive. How and if it can be used by others is up to them to decide.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> what you really want is for HIM TO FIX HIMSELF. He's not going out with his friends, he's not able to focus on work, he's grumpy with the kids, he's not finding things to do in his spare time that make him happy. You find him brooding, and always, always watching you, trying to figure you out. WHY CANT HE LET YOU ALONE AND GET HIS **** TOGETHER so you can desire him again?


For me, out with friends means some sort of negotiation about caring for the kids, perhaps even she'll go out with her friends, but it sure isn't easy. It's a negotiation. I don't make enough money, so I should tell me boss x, y, z. When I ask the kids questions during dinner, she answers for them -- because Lord knows, it is the information that is important, not the exchange and the relationship. I can do things on my own -- so long as they don't take me away from the other commitments. 

What you hint at, GettingIt, seems somewhat inline with MMSL -- develop your own life, and your wife will be eager to be a part of it. There's logic to it, but I know I'm dealing with a whole lot of risk -- "you spend all day with your soccer buddies, so I have to chauffeur the kids everywhere, and *now* you want to have sex. Fat chance."


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I don't know. All I can say is that I am on the other side of it now, and am able to see clearly what I could not see from within that dynamic.
> 
> I see so many wounded men on here who have the belief that their wives damn well know what the problem is, they are just too happy with the way things are to fix it.
> 
> I guarantee you, I was not happy.




There is a motivational speaker/self-help guru that was quite popular in the 1990's named Stephen Covey. He's the author of the book _The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People._ There's an informal story that's circulated about an exchange between him and an attendee at one of his speaking engagements. The man approached Covey and said.

“My wife and I just don't have the same feelings for each other we used to have. I guess I just don't love her anymore and she doesn't love me. What can I do?"

Covey asked,

"The feeling isn't there anymore?"

The man replied,

"That's right. And we have three children we're really concerned about. What do you suggest?"

"Love your wife." 

"I told you, the feeling just isn't there anymore."

"Love your wife."

"You don't understand. the feeling of love just isn't there."

"Then love her. If the feeling isn't there, that's all the more reason to love her."

"But how do you love when you don't love?"

"My friend, *love is a verb*. Love - the feeling - is but a fruit of love, the verb. So love her. Serve her. Sacrifice. Listen to her. Empathize. Appreciate. Affirm her. Are you willing to do that?” ​Although there are some men who are willing to declare that they have zero control over their emotions, most men nod with various degrees of approval at that exchange. You observed that there are, "...wounded men on here who have the belief that their wives damn well know what the problem is, they are just too happy with the way things are to fix it." I think the sentiment embodied in the exchange above is exactly where that comes from. Rising above our base natures and keeping emotions in step behind our actions rather than subverting them and leading us we know not where is the gold standard.

When I read your post above, what I'm hearing is that men do not have the luxury of missing that mark and simply being human. Is he hurt and upset because his wife has rejected him for more than a year? That is exactly why she's continuing to reject him! He cannot let his emotions visibly affect his actions. It will only make things worse. 

Conversely what I'm hearing is exactly the opposite as far as women are concerned. Her actions are going to be governed by feelings she's only dimly aware of, if at all. She can force herself to go through the motions, true, but love won't follow from those actions. Resentment will though. 

--Funny thing is if you study much history, this idea comes through loud and clear both in literature (Even in the NT) and customs. And for the most part, they are regarded as openly misogynistic, sexist and downright insulting to women today.

It truly makes the world a confusing place for men. :scratchhead:


----------



## 41362 (Dec 14, 2012)

1812overture said:


> For me, out with friends means some sort of negotiation about caring for the kids, perhaps even she'll go out with her friends, but it sure isn't easy. It's a negotiation. I don't make enough money, so I should tell me boss x, y, z. When I ask the kids questions during dinner, she answers for them -- because Lord knows, it is the information that is important, not the exchange and the relationship. I can do things on my own -- so long as they don't take me away from the other commitments.
> 
> What you hint at, GettingIt, seems somewhat inline with MMSL -- develop your own life, and your wife will be eager to be a part of it. There's logic to it, but I know I'm dealing with a whole lot of risk -- "you spend all day with your soccer buddies, so I have to chauffeur the kids everywhere, and *now* you want to have sex. Fat chance."


The bigger question is this: If you didn't spend your day or afternoon with the soccer buddies, would there still be high liklihood of a "fat chance?" If it's yes- which is the feeling I get from your post- why not better yourself? 

Marriage is a huge component of who and what we are, but's not the sum total. There are other parts, and they need to be taken care of.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Agreed. Fly fishing it is. But it won't eliminate the sadness that the women I love (I still love her, she is a great Mom, can be a great wife, is great to travel with, is the finest piece of ass at the PTA meetings) has no interest whatsoever is getting naked with me. 

If it makes her notice and change, great. If not, well, I'm still better off.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

1812overture said:


> Agreed. Fly fishing it is. But it won't eliminate the sadness that the women I love (I still love her, she is a great Mom, can be a great wife, is great to travel with, is the finest piece of ass at the PTA meetings) has no interest whatsoever is getting naked with me.
> 
> If it makes her notice and change, great. If not, well, I'm still better off.


Alright 1812 you really need to start a thread. I've picked up hints and pieces from your various posts. It seems like you're looking for solutions but on your own terms. Be brave and let it all out there.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Alright 1812 you really need to start a thread. I've picked up hints and pieces from your various posts. It seems like you're looking for solutions but on your own terms. Be brave and let it all out there.


:iagree:

Please do, to not jack the OP's thread. Thanks.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> There is a motivational speaker/self-help guru that was quite popular in the 1990's named Stephen Covey. He's the author of the book _The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People._ There's an informal story that's circulated about an exchange between him and an attendee at one of his speaking engagements. The man approached Covey and said.
> 
> “My wife and I just don't have the same feelings for each other we used to have. I guess I just don't love her anymore and she doesn't love me. What can I do?"
> 
> ...


Giving into my base nature and asking my husband to do the same has transformed my life and my relationship. I no longer have to consider how what I feel will affect my husband's opinion of me, or his love for me, or his commitment for me, or his respect for me. He no longer has to wonder what I need or how I'm feeling or what I think of him--no matter how I am "acting."

How we are taught to operate in society in order to be autonomous, equal, happy and successful, in my opinion, does not translate into a successful relationship model for every couple. Men and women have base natures; you can try to subvert them to emotion, reason, and the cultural/societal/political flavors of the day, but these natures are primal, as old as life itself. These natures are in our DNA. Ignore them at your peril. 



ocotillo said:


> When I read your post above, what I'm hearing is that men do not have the luxury of missing that mark and simply being human. Is he hurt and upset because his wife has rejected him for more than a year? That is exactly why she's continuing to reject him! He cannot let his emotions visibly affect his actions. It will only make things worse.


I'm not sure what you mean by "being human." Do you mean allowing actions to follow emotions, as opposed to following our "base natures"? 

I think both men and women react to their emotions. Reacting to how we feel is what people do. _Understanding how the other person interprets those reactions, and how they are gong to react back is where the sticking point seems to be._ 

Either side is capable of going through the motions in order to try and affect a change in their spouse. It's what the "fake it till you make it" advice is based on. I just don't buy that going through the motions is effective in the long run, because it commonly builds resentment in the "faker," and because the other person (whether they realize it consciously or not) doesn't want "fake" desire or "fake" happiness, they want the real thing. 

True change is achieved through understanding and accepting how our behavior affects others, most specifically the other gender. Women have trouble understanding and accepting how their reaction to the loss of desire (i.e. sexual rejection) affects their husbands. Men have trouble understanding and accepting that their needy/angry/sad/solicitous behavior kills desire. Round and round we go . . . 



ocotillo said:


> Conversely what I'm hearing is exactly the opposite as far as women are concerned. Her actions are going to be governed by feelings she's only dimly aware of, if at all. She can force herself to go through the motions, true, but love won't follow from those actions. Resentment will though.


Yep, I think that is true. I was resentful of my husband for not being desirable to me. As I said, I couldn't understand it at the time, but I do now. And I can't help that feeling anymore than you can help what testosterone awakens in you. I will put this out there as a generality: women want and need to sexually desire their partner, but the ability to recognize this, let alone accept is, is deeply subverted. 



ocotillo said:


> --Funny thing is if you study much history, this idea comes through loud and clear both in literature (Even in the NT) and customs. And for the most part, they are regarded as openly misogynistic, sexist and downright insulting to women today.


Not sure what you mean by "this idea." Can you clarify and give some examples? 

Again, I've learned to differentiate and celebrate what I will accept from society at large, and what I desire and need in my private relationship with my husband. I'm coming to understand that this is HUGELY difficult for many women to do. 



ocotillo said:


> It truly makes the world a confusing place for men. :scratchhead:


If you think it's hard being a man and not understanding women, try being a woman and not understanding yourself.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> You look at your husband and you see a man who cannot be happy, and blames you for it. You look at your husband, and he is focusing his behavior around trying to fix you, when what you really want is for HIM TO FIX HIMSELF. He's not going out with his friends, he's not able to focus on work, he's grumpy with the kids, he's not finding things to do in his spare time that make him happy. You find him brooding, and always, always watching you, trying to figure you out. WHY CANT HE LET YOU ALONE AND GET HIS **** TOGETHER so you can desire him again?
> 
> Getting it,
> 
> ...


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettinIt,

Thanks for this discussion. I hope this can help others.



GettingIt said:


> Giving into my base nature and asking my husband to do the same has transformed my life and my relationship. I no longer have to consider how what I feel will affect my husband's opinion of me, or his love for me, or his commitment for me, or his respect for me. He no longer has to wonder what I need or how I'm feeling or what I think of him--no matter how I am "acting."
> 
> How we are taught to operate in society in order to be autonomous, equal, happy and successful, in my opinion, does not translate into a successful relationship model for every couple. Men and women have base natures; you can try to subvert them to emotion, reason, and the cultural/societal/political flavors of the day, but these natures are primal, as old as life itself. These natures are in our DNA. Ignore them at your peril.



No disagreement with that. What I'm referring to is some of the more destructive baggage we're carrying in our primal minds. 




GettingIt said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "being human." Do you mean allowing actions to follow emotions, as opposed to following our "base natures"?


I'm using, "Being human" as a synonym for "Human nature", which is defined in psychology as ways of thinking and acting that are independent of culture and learning. 

It is not human nature to serve, sacrifice, listen to, empathize with, appreciate and affirm someone who has slapped you hard in the face. --Repeatedly. 

Human nature is to either retaliate or retreat. It is certainly not human nature to remain completely and totally unaffected by such treatment. Yet that is the message in the sentiment, "You're being needy, [Because I've rejected you umpteen dozen times] therefore I'm not sexually attracted to you." That reaction is perfectly understandable in the dating scene, but we're talking about marriage here. In marriage you have made one of the most serious of all human commitments and placed a number of important human needs squarely in the palm of your partner. That alone is a difficult step for most men to take. To find out after the fact that your partner is repulsed by that reality is a bitter pill indeed. In retrospect, I would not have married if I had truly known that beforehand. I would have taken the position that marriage is an anachronism. 




GettingIt said:


> I think both men and women react to their emotions. Reacting to how we feel is what people do. _Understanding how the other person interprets those reactions, and how they are gong to react back is where the sticking point seems to be._


Agree




GettingIt said:


> Either side is capable of going through the motions in order to try and affect a change in their spouse. It's what the "fake it till you make it" advice is based on. I just don't buy that going through the motions is effective in the long run, because it commonly builds resentment in the "faker," and because the other person (whether they realize it consciously or not) doesn't want "fake" desire or "fake" happiness, they want the real thing.


Well I think you're speaking from the perspective of roughly one half of humanity here.  What Stephen Covey said resounds pretty strongly with men, because what you do does affect how you feel at a very basic level. The body exerts a powerful influence over the mind. Exercise and you'll feel much better. Volunteer at a worthy charity and you'll feel a thousand times better. Do the things for your wife that you did when you were dating her and you'll find those old feelings again and love her more than ever.  

I think we see this basic disconnect on TAM all the time. Men say, "Just do it. It was implicit in your wedding vow!" Women say, "It doesn't work that way, you oaf!" and the conversation goes downhill from there. 




GettingIt said:


> True change is achieved through understanding and accepting how our behavior affects others, most specifically the other gender. Women have trouble understanding and accepting how their reaction to the loss of desire (i.e. sexual rejection) affects their husbands. Men have trouble understanding and accepting that their needy/angry/sad/solicitous behavior kills desire. Round and round we go . . .


Absolutely





GettingIt said:


> Not sure what you mean by "this idea." Can you clarify and give some examples?


The idea that men are closer to the Divine than women is rampant in ancient literature. It's blatantly offensive and unfair today, but there it is. St. Paul, for example asserts that man is, "God's image and glory, but the woman is man's glory." 

Self help books for men in sexless marriages basically state the same thing. "Your wife is a slave to her emotions whereas you (As the man) are capable of rising above them and turning things around.. If you can do this, your wife will follow your lead." Some authors are pretty subtle with this (e.g. Athol Kay) and some are pretty blatant. (e.g. Calle Zorro) Regardless, the idea that you, as the man have to be the "Better person" when the relationship is at an impasse because your wife is pretty much incapable of doing so is expressed by both authors. I'm not pointing this out because I agree with it. I'm pointing this out as an observer of people. 




GettingIt said:


> If you think it's hard being a man and not understanding women, try being a woman and not understanding yourself.


My hat is off to you. You are exceptional.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Always Learning said:


> GettingIt said:
> 
> 
> > You look at your husband and you see a man who cannot be happy, and blames you for it. You look at your husband, and he is focusing his behavior around trying to fix you, when what you really want is for HIM TO FIX HIMSELF. He's not going out with his friends, he's not able to focus on work, he's grumpy with the kids, he's not finding things to do in his spare time that make him happy. You find him brooding, and always, always watching you, trying to figure you out. WHY CANT HE LET YOU ALONE AND GET HIS **** TOGETHER so you can desire him again?
> ...


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Thanks for this discussion. I hope this can help others.


Me too. 



ocotillo said:


> It is not human nature to serve, sacrifice, listen to, empathize with, appreciate and affirm someone who has slapped you hard in the face. --Repeatedly.


Nor is it human nature to have sex with an undesirable/unworthy partner, even if one cannot understand the origins of those feelings. 



ocotillo said:


> Human nature is to either retaliate or retreat. It is certainly not human nature to remain completely and totally unaffected by such treatment. Yet that is the message in the sentiment, "You're being needy, [Because I've rejected you umpteen dozen times] therefore I'm not sexually attracted to you." That reaction is perfectly understandable in the dating scene, but we're talking about marriage here. In marriage you have made one of the most serious of all human commitments and placed a number of important human needs squarely in the palm of your partner. That alone is a difficult step for most men to take. To find out after the fact that your partner is repulsed by that reality is a bitter pill indeed. In retrospect, I would not have married if I had truly known that beforehand. I would have taken the position that marriage is an anachronism.


You said it yourself: "I'm using, "Being human" as a synonym for "Human nature", which is defined in psychology as ways of thinking and acting that are independent of culture and learning." 

Marriage is not human nature, rather culture and learning. 




ocotillo said:


> The idea that men are closer to the Divine than women is rampant in ancient literature. It's blatantly offensive and unfair today, but there it is. St. Paul, for example asserts that man is, "God's image and glory, but the woman is man's glory."


Ancient literature written by men, right?



ocotillo said:


> Self help books for men in sexless marriages basically state the same thing. "Your wife is a slave to her emotions whereas you (As the man) are capable of rising above them and turning things around.. If you can do this, your wife will follow your lead." Some authors are pretty subtle with this (e.g. Athol Kay) and some are pretty blatant. (e.g. Calle Zorro) Regardless, the idea that you, as the man have to be the "Better person" when the relationship is at an impasse because your wife is pretty much incapable of doing so is expressed by both authors. I'm not pointing this out because I agree with it. I'm pointing this out as an observer of people.


I don't think this is saying "the same thing" at all. What you describe here is exactly what my husband and I have discovered to be true for us. It describes my private relationship with my husband, not my attitude toward men in general. My husband earns his status. 






ocotillo said:


> My hat is off to you. You are exceptional.


Thank you. It's been a humbling journey, that's for sure!


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I keep reading through this thread, OP, and I recognize every observation you make about your wife, and I recognize your pain and confusion. You are describing me and my husband and my marriage during ten years of emotional disconnect.
> 
> Something is broken inside of her, yes, but don't get too attached to the idea that she knows what it is and how to fix it. It is a terrible feeling to lose desire and attraction for your husband, but still feel that you love him. It is confusing and isolating and no matter how much you TRY to drum up those old feelings . . . they are simply gone. They are gone because you look at your husband and you see someone who needs you, not someone who wants you. You look at your husband and you see a man who cannot be happy, and blames you for it. You look at your husband, and he is focusing his behavior around trying to fix you, when what you really want is for HIM TO FIX HIMSELF. He's not going out with his friends, he's not able to focus on work, he's grumpy with the kids, he's not finding things to do in his spare time that make him happy. You find him brooding, and always, always watching you, trying to figure you out. WHY CANT HE LET YOU ALONE AND GET HIS **** TOGETHER so you can desire him again?
> 
> ...


I think this is basically it. At least that is the conclusion I reached over the past 4 years. Not focusing on it I believe can lead to success IF the wife eventually looks at herself and makes an effort. However the time it takes is long and there are certainly no guarantees.

I actually feel for the women to an extent as they do seem to have more to deal with from a mental aspect. That being said though I feel its ridiculous too. There has to be a basic sense to work on yourself, what I hear in here is its all on the guy and women get a free pass until ten years later they feel something is wrong and it could be them THEN they decide to do something...that is truly sad.

That's weak and unacceptable and I'm surprised the husband took you back after ten years of that. I can guarantee he does not forgive those years. Reminds me of a jail covert to religion in the end...yeah right.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

After a while you just "throw in the towel" & give up the quest. I agree, that the men get all the pressure & have to do all the effort to win their wife's desire back. I've done all the counseling, numerous book readings, attempted talks, several letters, a marriage encounter weekend & she did nothing but just repeatedly telling me that her love for me hasn't changed. Eventually you decide it's too much headache & heartache & quit thinking about sex & enjoy the other things.
You either take that road or you divorce, there is no door #3?
If you keep waiting for them to "come around", you hurt yourself more & feel resentment. They have to "want" you again & that is up to them to communicate it or act on it. There is no way to force it out of them.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt,



GettingIt said:


> Me too.
> Nor is it human nature to have sex with an undesirable/unworthy partner, even if one cannot understand the origins of those feelings.


And the solution to that is pretty clear. Summarily divorce a partner who no longer wants to have sex with you. A promise has been made and then wantonly broken. Why on earth would you want to be married to someone who feels that way about you? What could be fairer? Who is on the moral high-ground here?

But again, we're talking about marriage. Not dating. Marriage is an institution that rests upon higher and nobler human concepts like ethics, morality commitment and reciprocity. There must be some semblance of balance between the two, else the entire concept fails. 

Seriously. I don't think most women are willing to live with the consequences of relegating male/female relations purely to primal desires. Are you? Do you realize how violent these can be? Or how men struggle with that? 



GettingIt said:


> You said it yourself: "I'm using, "Being human" as a synonym for "Human nature", which is defined in psychology as ways of thinking and acting that are independent of culture and learning."
> 
> Marriage is not human nature, rather culture and learning.


Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Again, the message I'm hearing (Perhaps incorrectly) from you is that women are either unwilling or unable to subdue human nature with culture and learning. 




GettingIt said:


> Ancient literature written by men, right?


And affirmed by you indirectly via assenting to their starting premises 




GettingIt said:


> I don't think this is saying "the same thing" at all. What you describe here is exactly what my husband and I have discovered to be true for us. It describes my private relationship with my husband, not my attitude toward men in general. My husband earns his status.


I'm not sure what you're actually agreeing and disagreeing with here. I can flesh out the connection between authors like Calle Zorro and the NT and other ancient literature. 




GettingIt said:


> Thank you. It's been a humbling journey, that's for sure!


For sure  I'm agnostic, but I have to say that if G-d exists, he/she certainly has a sense of humor.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> GettingIt,
> 
> And the solution to that is pretty clear. Summarily divorce a partner who no longer wants to have sex with you.


Yes, for some men, this constitutes a desirable solution. I dare say many women who were in my position would welcome it. I would have welcomed it. 



ocotillo said:


> A promise has been made and then wantonly broken. Why on earth would you want to be married to someone who feels that way about you?


Love. Hope. A different understanding of marriage (there is great variation, you know). *shrug* There are probably more reasons, but that's all I came up with on the fly.



ocotillo said:


> What could be fairer? Who is on the moral high-ground here?


Life isn't fair. That doesn't mean it's someone else's fault. But, here comes human nature again: we want to settle blame somewhere, darn it. 




ocotillo said:


> But again, we're talking about marriage. Not dating. Marriage is an institution that rests upon higher and nobler human concepts like ethics, morality commitment and reciprocity. There must be some semblance of balance between the two, else the entire concept fails.


I have a less "noble" notion of marriage than you do. As does my husband. Which might explain why we made it through those rough years: neither of us were under any delusions about the "meaning" of marriage. 



ocotillo said:


> Seriously. I don't think most women are willing to live with the consequences of relegating male/female relations purely to primal desires. Are you? Do you realize how violent these can be? Or how men struggle with that?


I'll have to ask my husband, I suppose, about his struggle with violent impulses. 

I don't think we can revert to the most carnal instincts of our primitive ancestors (some of that has been bred out, clearly), but we can willfully and joyously free ourselves and our partners of some of the shackles that society has put upon our impulses. It's a choice to live that way, and of course it must be consensual. 




ocotillo said:


> Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Again, the message I'm hearing (Perhaps incorrectly) from you is that women are either unwilling or unable to subdue human nature with culture and learning.


Not human nature so much as the programming of their DNA. Are you not at the mercy of your testosterone? Why must women be shamed for feeling what they feel when it is something they no more control than men can control the urge for sex? Would it not be better to call it into the light, name it, and understand it? It _can_ be understood. It _can_ be incorporated into a healthy marriage. 




ocotillo said:


> And affirmed by you indirectly via assenting to their starting premises


What was the premise again? That man is closer to the divine? But where did I affirm that? I believe in the divinity of nature, of which men and women are equally a product. If I have to parse, though, I follow the tenants of Wicca (if I can be said to follow any belief system) where the female is (most?) highly revered.



ocotillo said:


> I'm not sure what you're actually agreeing and disagreeing with here. I can flesh out the connection between authors like Calle Zorro and the NT and other ancient literature.


Just that I think the emotional differences (in strengths and vulnerabilities) between men and women should be considered when a couple discusses the sort of dynamic they want to have in their marriage. Saying that the man must be the "better person" because of a defect in a woman's emotional capability is to assign judgment. Both men and women must contribute equally to the dynamic, according to their strengths, but if you expect sameness between the contributions of men and women, you will be disappointed. 




ocotillo said:


> For sure  I'm agnostic, but I have to say that if G-d exists, he/she certainly has a sense of humor.


I don't think so at all. I think most people just don't want to understand something that might threaten their very comfortable sense of being right.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I don't know. All I can say is that I am on the other side of it now, and am able to see clearly what I could not see from within that dynamic.
> 
> I see so many wounded men on here who have the belief that their wives damn well know what the problem is, they are just too happy with the way things are to fix it.
> 
> I guarantee you, I was not happy.


Maybe not. I certainly did not think that. My thought was that the lack of drive was my ex's problem to fix because she was the only one who could. I couldn't go to see an MD, therapist, etc for her. It was her role to overcome her personal challenges and be a good wife. she was simply too lazy to take decisive action to fix her issues. I think that's the case with many of the situations I see here.

I honestly think that a maximum effort from the refuser is appropriate for this situation. To me, the response of "that's too hard / takes too much time" are just cop outs. There's always time if the refuser makes it a high enough priority. So, if it doesn't get addressed it's because the refuser doesn't care enough to make it a priority, forego other things to find the necessary resources, and put up with the discomfort of addressing one's issues. That is just how it is.

Are the refusers unhappy with the state of the relationship? Probably, but so what? The real question is "are you unhappy enough to address your problems. Often the answer is no, and that is where the resentment and hurt comes in.

Another consideration is that the spouse being refused sex is a victim, and the refuser is the perpetrator. At the core of the matter, my ex (and other refusers) choose to deny sex as the most expedient way of dealing with the situation. The refused spouses have no such choice - no say in the matter.

Lastly, I think it's important to note that the refusers generally continue to take from their spouse and get their own needs met. I don't think I've ever seen an account where the refuser says "it's not fair to take from you while I find myself not ready to give back, so I'm going to step up and do those things which I had asked of you, or just do without". I know that if I disliked someone enough to not hold up my part of the relationship, I would be ashamed to take anything beyond a genuine 50/50 split of responsibilities. I am literally at a loss as to why any refuser would take more and feel good about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DTO said:


> Lastly, *I think it's important to note that the refusers generally continue to take from their spouse and get their own needs
> met.* I don't think I've ever seen an account where the refuser says "it's not fair to take from you while I find myself not ready to give back, so I'm going to step up and do those things which I had asked of you, or just do without". I know that if I disliked someone enough to not hold up my part of the relationship, I would be ashamed to take anything beyond a genuine 50/50 split of responsibilities. I am literally at a loss as to why any refuser would take more and feel good about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think the needs are getting met. Her needs for attention and affection probably are not.

You are wondering why a SAHM would continue taking her husband's money while not having sex with him?

Well, she probably feels like marriage is more than sex. It is also the raising of kids and caring for the home. He makes the money, and she manages the household. 

Sex is a shared area. Aren't we taught we should not have sex if we don't want to? Isn't that what the rape thread is all about?

And then there are men here who complain about "duty" sex. Kind of picky, aren't they?

Dh and I have not lived sexless marriage. We have always had an active sex life, outside of childbirth recovery and iilness. But I can tell you there have been times when I was not an active, enthusiastic participant. He still got what he ultimately wanted, and was satisfied with that. Life is not always 10/10.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Duty sex, isn't intimacy, but an alternative form of masturbation, using your spouse as an outlet, instead of your hand or toys.
Men need to feel loved & that doesn't work.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO said:


> Maybe not. I certainly did not think that. My thought was that the lack of drive was my ex's problem to fix because she was the only one who could. I couldn't go to see an MD, therapist, etc for her. It was her role to overcome her personal challenges and be a good wife. she was simply too lazy to take decisive action to fix her issues. I think that's the case with many of the situations I see here.


I agree that her role, as well as his role in those situations where it is the man with no sex drive, is to overcome the personal challenges to be a good spouse. But it is not so easy nor as cut and dry in many situations to squarely place the burden on the LD spouse.



> I honestly think that a *maximum effort from the refuser *is appropriate for this situation. To me, the response of "that's too hard / takes too much time" are just cop outs. There's always time if the refuser makes it a high enough priority. So, if it doesn't get addressed it's because the refuser doesn't care enough to make it a priority, forego other things to find the necessary resources, and put up with the discomfort of addressing one's issues. That is just how it is.


Again, I agree the refuser must put maximum effort in, but so must the spouse left high and dry. How often do we see here men who are Nice Guys not getting laid? A lot more often than we see door mat highly needy wives not getting laid!




> Are the refusers unhappy with the state of the relationship? Probably, but so what? The real question is "are you unhappy enough to address your problems. Often the answer is no, and that is where the resentment and hurt comes in.


I can tell you from my own experience is when we first realize our sex drive never came back after child birth we think it's hormones and in time it will get better. Then we become so engrossed in motherhood we thing there is no time for a sex drive, no energy for a sex drive. Finally we come to see it never came back and by then resentment has set in and we wonder if perhaps we fell out of love and can't bare to think that that might be the case because we DO still love our spouse and we have no idea why the sex drive never came back. We simply don't have the insight to understand that during the initial time of no sex drive, the relationship took on a needy tone from the high and dry spouse and it is that neediness that further turns us off.



> Another consideration is that the spouse being refused sex is a victim, and the refuser is the perpetrator. At the core of the matter, my ex 9and other refusers) choose to deny sex as the most expedient way of dealing with the situation. The refused spouses have no such choice. The refused spouse has no say in the matter.


I think this is a gross over simplification of a very complex issue.



> Lastly, I think it's important to note that the refusers generally continue to take from their spouse and get their own needs
> met. I don't think I've ever seen an account where the refuser says "it's not fair to take from you while I find myself not ready to give back, so I'm going to step up and do those things which I had asked of you, or just do without". I know that if I disliked someone enough to not hold up my part of the relationship, I would be ashamed to take anything beyond a genuine 50/50 split of responsibilities. I am literally at a loss as to why any refuser would take more and feel good about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree completely. At that point they are both "taking" from the other. They are no longer feeding the love that brought them together in the first place.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I can tell you from my own experience is when we first realize our sex drive never came back after child birth we think it's hormones and in time it will get better. Then we become so engrossed in motherhood we thing there is no time for a sex drive, no energy for a sex drive. Finally we come to see it never came back and by then resentment has set in and we wonder if perhaps we fell out of love and can't bare to think that that might be the case because we DO still love our spouse and we have no idea why the sex drive never came back. We simply don't have the insight to understand that during the initial time of no sex drive, the relationship took on a needy tone from the high and dry spouse and it is that neediness that further turns us off.


I can buy this explanation, I do wonder how much was communicated to the spouse. I think a lot of pain would be avoided it their was solid communication. I however can attest from personal experience and in reading way to many posts over the years that in almost 100% of the cases there is NO communication from the LD spouse. Nor a real attempt to go outside and find a solution.

Its almost like they try to bury the issue and put it on the normal spouse. That is not doing anyone any good.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I can buy this explanation, I do wonder how much was communicated to the spouse. I think a lot of pain would be avoided it their was solid communication. I however can attest from personal experience and in reading way to many posts over the years that in almost 100% of the cases there is NO communication from the LD spouse. Nor a real attempt to go outside and find a solution.
> 
> Its almost like they try to bury the issue and put it on the normal spouse. That is not doing anyone any good.


I do not disagree, but I feel like you're not listening to what GettingIt has said. 

We don't know why! We can't figure it out. We wonder if we have lost our love. We need our men to be men and keep bringing the issue up, keep trying to get us out of our heads, keep trying to get us to,open up and keep being the strong one because we are lost and we don't know why our desire just disappeared. YES we have to try, but we need our men to stand up to us and make us try.

I'm sorry, I know women are complicated and men feel like their damned if they do and damned if the don't. But if there is one thing I've learned in my 51 years it is that we regret the things left unsaid, the roads untraveled and the plans left undone.

So take the risk and push the issue in as many different ways as you can.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I do not disagree, but I feel like you're not listening to what GettingIt has said.
> 
> We don't know why! We can't figure it out. We wonder if we have lost our love. We need our men to be men and keep bringing the issue up, keep trying to get us out of our heads, keep trying to get us to,open up and keep being the strong one because we are lost and we don't know why our desire just disappeared. YES we have to try, but we need our men to stand up to us and make us try.
> 
> ...


But where does it end... the best this forum has to offer is two ladies that seem to after about *ten years* each have some light bulb go off and finally decide it might be them.

AS a man we all have limits, its pointless after a period of time to keep bringing it up and if the female is too obtuse to recognize that then it falls on her. What bothers me is a LD spouse after being told in different ways seems to need *ten years* for it to sink in. That is ridiculous.

If they can see what effect a sexless marriage has then there is no real hope and the more HD spouse gets shafted.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Both GettingIt and I have tried our best to explain the confusion and conflict and mess of unwelcome emotions that are common among LD wives. We have both offered up potential avenues to pursue. Your response is essentially no. Okay, you've drawn your line and abandoned ship. Now where has that gotten you?


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Both GettingIt and I have tried our best to explain the confusion and conflict and mess of unwelcome emotions that are common among LD wives. We have both offered up potential avenues to pursue. Your response is essentially no. Okay, you've drawn your line and abandoned ship. Now where has that gotten you?


Sanity... you can tell just by the volume of posts I do here. I long ago set a 4yr-window that was crossed so now I absolve myself of any and all wrong doing.

My wife isn't deaf, she had ample opportunity over the window to listen and read what I tried to communicate. She also had a warning that once I stopped communications she should worry.

So here we are. Frankly it boils down to the fact if she doesn't want sex with me I don't want to force it on her. HOWEVER, that decision on her part causes changes in the way I live with her. Now that I don't communicate it is up to her to do the heavy lifting. I won't touch her unless I feel a chance of success. Which sadly due to her lifestyle is rare. So she made her boat now she can lie in it.

The alternative is to continue trying, that is madness. Its like dealing with a brick wall. 

After a while you just decide it isn't worth the effort and move on..her loss.

I have lived without sex for a long time, so for me its the new normal. This is not some mind-trick its accepting the reality of your situation and making the best of what it is. I do warn LD spouses though that just because your spouse isn't complaining there will be a COST to your decision to take LD so far and not communicate.... we don't operate in a vacuum and exact an equal negative force the other way in our daily activities and what we'll do and how far we will go. The net result is negative forces preventing what could have been had the LD decided earlier to do something or anything in the trying time period.

She has lost all leverage. That is the net result.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jld said:


> I don't think the needs are getting met. Her needs for attention and affection probably are not.


Well, you're probably right. But, if she's not meeting his sexual need, then why would she expect to have her needs met? (I'm not saying it doesn't happen - just that I don't get why refusers get that sense of entitlement.)

I know that I'm going to catch flak for this, but here it goes. Guys are wired to be fixers and providers. If our wives want us to wash their cars, rub their feet, or whatever form of attention floats their boats, we generally do it because of our nature.

But, guys demand a measure of respect too. We don't mind putting her first and getting ours later, but we generally will expect ours at some point. If we don't, then we slow down our giving to match. The bottom line is that these aren't chicken-and-egg situations despite what the refusers might claim.



jld said:


> You are wondering why a SAHM would continue taking her husband's money while not having sex with him?


I never talked about a SAHM situation, because that's not reality for most people. I'm talking about a situation where both work, but the refuser chooses to just tune out at the end of the day.



jld said:


> Well, she probably feels like marriage is more than sex. It is also the raising of kids and caring for the home. He makes the money, and she manages the household.


Well, besides the part about the SAHM we just discussed, I agree that marriage is more than sex. That doesn't mean sex isn't essential. To put it in the personal perspective, I married my ex because I loved her and thought the feeling was mutual. I was a good looking young guy and could have gotten laid without much hassle. While sex is not the entirety of or purpose for the marriage, it is important enough that my ex refusing to provide it well made her a bad wife (yeah, I know that's blunt).



jld said:


> Aren't we taught we should not have sex if we don't want to?


As a blanket rule? Well, only if you are taught badly.

I was taught a family is a unit where everyone pulls together in a giving and generous manner. There will be times that you are a more of a giver and less of a taker, but in general there should be balance, and balance should be restored quickly.

Another, personal, feeling is that sex does not count for "more" than other forms of attention. I've always chafed at the attitude of some LD people where they can be served well daily (and enjoy it) yet are comfortable providing sex sparingly because it's "different".



jld said:


> And then there are men here who complain about "duty" sex. Kind of picky, aren't they?


Again, this is too "binary". It's not just either she is horny for him or it's a pity screw. There is a third alternate of acting out of respect and commitment - a "loving sacrifice", if you will.

In my situation, I understood my ex had exaggerated her sex drive and simply would not have the raw desire to propel her to fulfill her promises. But, it did expect her to happily provide a good sex life regardless because (1) she had promised it, (2) I would have been happy with the standard foreplay, oral, etc., and (3) I had held up my end and provided what she wanted.



jld said:


> But I can tell you there have been times when I was not an active, enthusiastic participant. He still got what he ultimately wanted, and was satisfied with that. Life is not always 10/10.


Well, I really don't mean to sound harsh, but there is no excuse for not being enthusiastic. You can be enthusiastic without having a pre-existing drive.

Also, I know life is not always 10/10; you don't always get out what you put in. But, a family is largely a closed system - effort doesn't dissipate or go into a void. If I put in "X" level of effort for my wife (and I mean just for her, not the kids or family in general) and I'm getting less out than I put in, then she's getting more out than she puts in.

I feel strongly that is inappropriate over more than the short term because (1) it's insustainable over the long-term and (2) it implies a superior / subordinate dynamic to the relationship. The person taking more and doing less exists this way because they feel entitled to it, and allowing the dynamic to exist validates this mindset. Now, I'm sure such people be able to take from someone (at least for a while), but it won't be from me.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Sanity... you can tell just by the volume of posts I do here. I long ago set a 4yr-window that was crossed so now I absolve myself of any and all wrong doing.
> 
> My wife isn't deaf, she had ample opportunity over the window to listen and read what I tried to communicate. She also had a warning that once I stopped communications she should worry.
> 
> ...


With all due respect this is nothing less than passive aggressive relationship management.

So again, what exactly did you win other than more sexlessness?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

LD spouses probably unconsciously assume that the sex drive of their spouse who is being denied is like a force of nature. It comes and goes but is always there. There for them if they should ever need it. But obviously this is not true. Once resentment from rejection has built up the rejected spouse will not try.

I can surely buy Gettingit and AnonPink's description of the dynamic as being complicated. I'll bet the best aphrodisiac is the husband getting a promotion, talking modestly about it at a party and having to some other woman flirting and smiling with him in approval.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO said:


> Also, I know life is not always 10/10; you don't always get out what you put in. But, a family is largely a closed system - effort doesn't dissipate or go into a void. If I put in "X" level of effort for my wife (and I mean just for her, not the kids or family in general) and I'm getting less out than I put in, then she's getting more out than she puts in.
> 
> I feel strongly that is inappropriate over more than the short term because (*1) it's insustainable over the long-term and (2) it implies a superior / subordinate dynamic to the relationship. The person taking more and doing less exists this way because they feel entitled to it, and allowing the dynamic to exist validates this mindset. *Now, I'm sure such people be able to take from someone (at least for a while), but it won't be from me.


Could not agree with this more!

DTO, you and I reach the same conclusions from opposite ends of the spectrum with a similar variable at play. As such, I think we both can add to these arguments well, but I also think we both have to be careful that we don't see our situations as...IDK normal?


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> AS a man we all have limits, its pointless after a period of time to keep bringing it up and if the female is too obtuse to recognize that then it falls on her. What bothers me is a LD spouse after being told in different ways seems to need *ten years* for it to sink in. That is ridiculous.


I agree. You can only exist for 10 years in this state because you excuse away all the signs of trouble. Moreover, having restored your sex life after 10 years puts you in a miniscule sliver of marriages; the overall chances of that happening are so low as to be practically zero.

With the benefit of hindsight, my thoughts on this issue have evolved to:

1) My wants and needs matter as much, and deserve as much time and attention, as those of any relationship partner I had previously or may have in the future.

2) There is nothing that happens within a marriage (short of serious injury, serious illness, or physical separation) that justifies a long-term apathy towards sex. I will do my part and meet her needs and I expect her to meet mine.

3) I won't badger or harangue anyone to meet my needs. I will make sure any future partner knows what I expect going in and that failure to meet that over an extended period (say, six months) will cause me to reevaluate the continuation of the relationship. After that much time, if you aren't being sexual and aren't working on it, your actions clearly say you prioritize yourself much higher than me. I am free to follow suit.

Another way to look at this is that getting help for this issue is easy:

1) You go to your MD and say "I can't bring myself to have sex with my husband/wife and my marriage is in trouble. I need to do whatever it takes to turn this around and save my marriage."

2) You go to an appropriate therapist / therapists and say "I can't bring myself to have sex with my husband/wife and my marriage is in trouble. I need to do whatever it takes to turn this around and save my marriage."

3) If you are religious, you go to your spiritual advisor and say...


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> Maybe not. I certainly did not think that. My thought was that the lack of drive was my ex's problem to fix because she was the only one who could. I couldn't go to see an MD, therapist, etc for her. It was her role to overcome her personal challenges and be a good wife. she was simply too lazy to take decisive action to fix her issues.


I do think that the LD spouse is the only one who can figure it out. But sometimes they try and come up with nuthin'. What then? What if the wife tries IC, talks to her doctor, is fit and exercises regularly, etc, etc? It sounds like your ex didn't do those things, even after you expressed the importance of sex, and so the marriage ended. As perhaps it should have since you could not be happy without sex, and she was not willing to work on it. 



DTO said:


> I think that's the case with many of the situations I see here. I honestly think that a maximum effort from the refuser is appropriate for this situation. To me, the response of "that's too hard / takes too much time" are just cop outs. There's always time if the refuser makes it a high enough priority. So, if it doesn't get addressed it's because the refuser doesn't care enough to make it a priority, forego other things to find the necessary resources, and put up with the discomfort of addressing one's issues. That is just how it is.


I think you have to remember that you are only getting one perspective on the dynamic here. I'm not saying that many posters don't do their best to characterize the situation, but of course their partner has a position, too. Also, are you assuming that these are all otherwise healthy marriages, and the only problem is that the man is unhappy with the amount of sex? I think that problems in the bedroom are almost always indicative of problems in the marriage. That's where both parties should be focusing their efforts before expectations of improved sexual intimacy can realistically be expected. 



DTO said:


> Are the refusers unhappy with the state of the relationship? Probably, but so what? The real question is "are you unhappy enough to address your problems. Often the answer is no, and that is where the resentment and hurt comes in.


I think every case of so-called LD is different. Again, n the vast majority of cases, I would say that there are problems outside the bedroom that need to be addressed. Are they "easy" to fix? Is it going to result in a quick return to sex? Doubtful. The idea that all LD's need to do to is to start finding a way to put out without any participation from the HD spouse is not realistic. And you could ask the same question of HD spouses that you do of LD spouses: "are you unhappy enough to address your problems?" And by "address" I don't mean continuing to expect the refuser to just figure this out on her own while he lets his happiness erode and his resentment make him increasingly unattractive as a partner. Draw you line in the sand, and then end things if you don't get your way. It takes two to stay in a toxic dynamic. 



DTO said:


> Another consideration is that the spouse being refused sex is a victim, and the refuser is the perpetrator. At the core of the matter, my ex 9and other refusers) choose to deny sex as the most expedient way of dealing with the situation. The refused spouses have no such choice. The refused spouse has no say in the matter.


The refused spouse always has agency. I acknowledge that they might need professional counseling to see them through the pain of the process, and they should seek it. 

I'm not sure what situation your ex was dealing with by "choosing to deny sex." Was her way of dealing with it appropriate? Maybe. I'd have to know her side of the story, I guess. 

I don't think all LD wives are using sex to deal with situations so much as situations lead to the loss of sexual desire. Since most men are clear that they think duty sex sucks, then the options are limited. Women's drives are not just always "on." We are not like men. We can't just choose to desire our husbands. And figuring out why we don't is sometimes very complex. I know many men find that hard to accept, but there it is. Continuing to deny the fact will only contribute to the problem. 



DTO said:


> Lastly, I think it's important to note that the refusers generally continue to take from their spouse and get their own needs
> met. I don't think I've ever seen an account where the refuser says "it's not fair to take from you while I find myself not ready to give back, so I'm going to step up and do those things which I had asked of you, or just do without". I know that if I disliked someone enough to not hold up my part of the relationship, I would be ashamed to take anything beyond a genuine 50/50 split of responsibilities. I am literally at a loss as to why any refuser would take more and feel good about it.


You can't take what you're not offered. If someone feels like they are being sh*t upon and they continue to smile and say, "thanks I'll have another" then they might want to consider some manning up lessons. 

Women can like their husbands and not want to have sex with them--it doesn't take active dislike of a spouse to feel zero desire for them. 

For the record, I wasn't taking anything from my husband during my LD years. He was as shut down as I was. We drifted past one another and around one another and co-parented as well as we could. The atmosphere in the house was nearly unbearable much of the time. We both had our reasons for staying (mostly the kids), but it wasn't because we were getting any needs met.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> With all due respect this is nothing less than passive aggressive relationship management.
> 
> So again, what exactly did you win other than more sexlessness?



Win? 

Nothing... what does a POW "win"?

Its taking the unfathomable situation and doing what is best. I have no regrets I tried MY BEST during the finite window of trying.
Now its entirely up to her if she wants more, its all like water of a ducks back.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Win?
> 
> Nothing... what does a POW "win"?
> 
> ...


You wrote that she has lost all leverage. Does this not mean that you, conversely, have won leverage? Unless I have missed something, the leverage you have won is more time being sexless and a less healthy relationship. I fail to see how this can be considered winning.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt,



GettingIt said:


> I have a less "noble" notion of marriage than you do. As does my husband. Which might explain why we made it through those rough years: neither of us were under any delusions about the "meaning" of marriage.


I guess our perceptions are strongly influenced by our individual experiences. My wife were and I will have a forty-first anniversary this year. Sexlessness for us started right around the nine year mark; a month or so after the first child was conceived. It lasted until shortly after the youngest graduated from high school and became more independent. --About _*twenty eight years*_ in round numbers.

I was (Understandably IMHO) upset for years, but eventually went off into my own little world of work, children, hobbies and academic pursuits. In retrospect, I don't think this helped the situation at all and blame myself for that. 

Things changed for us when her rock steady cycle started to falter. An unusual, but not unheard of side effect in some women is that their libido shoots absolutely through the roof. There's various theories about why this happens, but I don't think physicians really agree as to why. 

Suddenly, she was the one struggling with inappropriate thoughts about attractive work mates; having trouble focusing on work; suffering from an insomnia that only sex would cure; brooding and listless at home and downright nasty if she went more than two days in a row without sex. Sound familiar? 

I remarked that your advice to wannabe was a little painful for me to read. And this is why. I have seen with my own two eyes that in this respect, men and women are not so very different after all. When desire at that intensity goes unsatisfied, it really does not bring out the best in people. Not in men and not in women. To me, holding that against your spouse smacks of a lack of empathy analogous to being repulsed by a starving person's craving for food. 




GettingIt said:


> ..Are you not at the mercy of your testosterone? Why must women be shamed for feeling what they feel when it is something they no more control than men can control the urge for sex? Would it not be better to call it into the light, name it, and understand it? It _can_ be understood. It _can_ be incorporated into a healthy marriage.


I think whatever has worked in your marriage to resolve things amicably and to your mutual benefit is certainly a good thing. 

In response to the first question though; I can't control basic things like sexual orientation or desire, but I sure can control how those things affect my conduct, especially when it comes to how I treat my wife. If she needs something from me, then by God, I'm going to move heaven and earth for that woman. And I've actually found as we've aged and she's put on a little weight that I do have a huge amount of control over what I find attractive --much more so than I realized before. 




GettingIt said:


> What was the premise again? That man is closer to the divine? But where did I affirm that?


That wasn't one of the premises; that was the end conclusion itself. (Again something that I heartily disagree with.) In Pauline theology (Or possibly later redactions of it.) there is a sharp divide between "Spirit" (πνευμα) and "Flesh" (σαρξ). Paul associates virtues with the former and desires with the latter, portraying the two as at war with each other. There's a theological parallel here to the Adam and Eve story, where on one hand, the fruit was desirable to eat from a fleshly standpoint, but on the other hand, God had expressly forbidden that it be eaten. And in that story, it was the woman who caved in first and allowed her actions to be dictated by the "Flesh" rather than by the "Spirit." Paul doesn't just chalk this up to the mistake of one woman: He views it as a basic flaw in all women stating that, "I do not permit a woman to teach.." because "...the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression." 




GettingIt said:


> Just that I think the emotional differences (in strengths and vulnerabilities) between men and women should be considered when a couple discusses the sort of dynamic they want to have in their marriage. Saying that the man must be the "better person" because of a defect in a woman's emotional capability is to assign judgment.


Agreed. Let me be clear that I do not buy into the idea that there are any defects in a woman's emotional capability at all. If I thought that, I wouldn't have even responded to what you wrote. I'm simply questioning what came across to me as a parallel between what you wrote and what other people who do seem to think that there is a defect in female emotional capability have written, (i.e. That the onus is entirely upon the man) remarking that it is confusing. (And it is.) 

This is not about being "right" this is only about understanding.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Duty sex, isn't intimacy, but an alternative form of masturbation, using your spouse as an outlet, instead of your hand or toys.
> Men need to feel loved & that doesn't work.


I hadn't heard of "duty" sex or "pity" sex before I came on marriage boards.

I don't know what to say. Dh has always seemed very happy, even when I wasn't very enthusiastic, but still accommodating. He definitely feels loved. Maybe some of us just have lower standards.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DTO said:


> I was taught a family is a unit where everyone pulls together in a giving and generous manner. There will be times that you are a more of a giver and less of a taker, but in general there should be balance, and balance should be restored quickly.
> 
> There is a third alternate of acting out of respect and commitment - a "loving sacrifice", if you will.
> 
> Well, I really don't mean to sound harsh, but there is no excuse for not being enthusiastic. You can be enthusiastic without having a pre-existing drive.


I don't think we disagree, DTO. I am sure my husband would call my attitude and actions, in general, "loving service." 

And I totally agree that a family has to be giving, one to another. There are many things my husband does for me, and I hope there are many things I do for him. I am sure we are each grateful to the other.

I do think it is easier to be enthusiastic when certain conditions are met. And that is probably going to be different for each woman. For me, when dh listens to me, really listens, I feel loved. And then it is easy to be enthusiastic. 

And even without that loving attention, if I just start thinking of everything he does for me (providing, kindness, patience, etc.), I can shift my attitude to one of generosity.

Funny, though, dh doesn't really require any of that. He must just be pretty easily satisfied.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> This is not about being "right" this is only about understanding.


THIS is what I try to put forth in all my posts in which men seem to WANT to understand things from an LD point of view. And some men really do want to understand, as complex and as discouraging as it can be. 

However, so many posts boil down to the "just do it" attitude. Whatever it is, what ever it takes, "just do it" for the sake of the marriage, for the sake of love, for the sake of morality, whatever. 

Without desire, women can't "just do it." Not the way men like my husband need and require it. So I, and a few other women on TAM, have patiently tried to lay it out. To describe what it feels like, to explain that it's just not as black and white as so many men perceive. 

I don't, for one moment, begrudge the man who says, "no thanks" and decides to leave the marriage when his sexual needs have not been met for long periods of time. That is a far better response than staying and demonizing the wife, allowing resentment to grow and add to the lack of desire, while never conceding that there might indeed be a (complex and curving and steep and difficult, yes) way out. 

You can lie down and die, or you can get up and climb. As I see it, those are the only two worthwhile choices in life.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Re: Initiating "The Talk"...*



jld said:


> I hadn't heard of "duty" sex or "pity" sex before I came on marriage boards.
> 
> I don't know what to say. Dh has always seemed very happy, even when I wasn't very enthusiastic, but still accommodating. He definitely feels loved. Maybe some of us just have lower standards.


Here is my definition based on my experiences:
Roll on top of me, no foreplay, except light kissing, no oral sex etc, expected to attain & maintain arousal enough to enter a slightly moist area, go in and out & orgasm rather quickly (15 min or so..) She could care less if she does & gets irritated if you don't finish yourself, considers it a waste of time otherwise.
She does get some enjoyment during, she's not a "limp fish" but not interested in anything but basic.
Although I've gotten enjoyment during as well, I feel very hurt & unsatisfied when it's over?
If I don't ask or initiate, we can go months without her caring in the least.
Maybe I think like a woman, but I crave the emotional over the physical & quality over quantity. I'd take once a month of full blown intimacy over weekly doses of this. I quit asking this year & actually feel better.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

A prostitute can just do it, or a whole host of sex workers. Some men thinkthat threatening to outsource the sex is showing the wife that he means business and that the sex problem is serious. No it does not, it only shows that you can easily replace your wife's hole with another one. Then the argument of needing sex to feel loved falls flat. My husband has done this a number of times, all this does is make me continue to refuse him. Because if yyou present that as a solution to the problem then you jjust proved her point that sex is just to get your rocks off. It could not be a way to feel loved when you are paying a prostitute or going to a massage parlor for a happy ending.

I feel that GettingIt's post illustrates how I feel. Men want desire, not duty sex. OK, so what is the solution? The men may hate this, but I feel that the begging, pleading, bargaining, and all of that does so much damage that I would want to swear off sex forever. With my husband. I still have desire butit is buried under all of the resentment of the relationship. In a new relationship it may come forth for the new partner. The LD may feel this way but won't say it for fear of what the HD may say or do.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Here is my definition based on my experiences:
> Roll on top of me, no foreplay, except light kissing, no oral sex etc, expected to attain & maintain arousal enough to enter a slightly moist area, go in and out & orgasm rather quickly (15 min or so..) She could care less if she does & gets irritated if you don't finish yourself, considers it a waste of time otherwise.
> She does get some enjoyment during, she's not a "limp fish" but not interested in anything but basic.
> Although I've gotten enjoyment during as well, I feel very hurt & unsatisfied when it's over?
> ...


I think different men must have different requirements. I am sorry you are not satisfied with your relationship. I love my husband very much and want him to be happy. 

I didn't realize before coming on marriage boards that maybe I wasn't doing "enough" in this area. Dh never made me feel that way. Maybe it is because emotionally and mentally we are so very, very close. 

And I think that is because he listens, really listens. If he did not do that, I would just not feel as connected, I am afraid.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

techmom said:


> A prostitute can just do it, or a whole host of sex workers. Some men thinkthat threatening to outsource the sex is showing the wife that he means business and that the sex problem is serious. No it does not, it only shows that you can easily replace your wife's hole with another one. Then the argument of needing sex to feel loved falls flat. My husband has done this a number of times, all this does is make me continue to refuse him. Because if yyou present that as a solution to the problem then you jjust proved her point that sex is just to get your rocks off. It could not be a way to feel loved when you are paying a prostitute or going to a massage parlor for a happy ending.
> 
> I feel that GettingIt's post illustrates how I feel. Men want desire, not duty sex. OK, so what is the solution? The men may hate this, but I feel that the begging, pleading, bargaining, and all of that does so much damage that I would want to swear off sex forever. With my husband. I still have desire butit is buried under all of the resentment of the relationship. In a new relationship it may come forth for the new partner. The LD may feel this way but won't say it for fear of what the HD may say or do.


I am sure you don't feel respected, techmom. I wonder what your husband feels he is accomplishing by threatening you. It is just driving you away.

I don't think men understand how much their wives need to feel loved in order to feel desire. How to communicate that?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

jld said:


> I am sure you don't feel respected, techmom. I wonder what your husband feels he is accomplishing by threatening you. It is just driving you away.
> 
> I don't think men understand how much their wives need to feel loved in order to feel desire. How to communicate that?


I feel that he is trying to show me that he is at the end of his rope. He has been complaining over the last year about my lack of desire. It makes it impossible to solve this problem from my end. He always wanted me to have the same level of desire that he does, but I never did. I always went along with what he suggested in the bedroom. I was a virgin when we married, he had various sexual experiences with women (threesomes, anal, bdsm, etc). He thought that he could groom me to be an exceptional sex partner, also having the benefit of me having no past experiences with other guys.

He forgot one thing, that a 20 year old virgin may not like sex much, because if she did she would have been experimenting with different guys. So, he is frustrated now after 22 years of this. So am I. I'm waiting for a guy who shows interest and let's me be myself sexually.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> You wrote that she has lost all leverage. Does this not mean that you, conversely, have won leverage? Unless I have missed something, the leverage you have won is more time being sexless and a less healthy relationship. I fail to see how this can be considered winning.



It is not winning in any aspect. Its accepting and moving on. The leverage I gain is from not having sex held as a bargaining chip so my responses to her are pure and not filtered. 

This thread is not about me, its about whether talks work... the answer is no, the only thing that works in a very small percent of cases is the LD spouse finally realizing the damage they caused and finally for their own selfish purposes decides to do something. That's the grim reality.

I wish there was a plan.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I can buy this explanation, I do wonder how much was communicated to the spouse. I think a lot of pain would be avoided it their was solid communication. I however can attest from personal experience and in reading way to many posts over the years that in almost 100% of the cases there is NO communication from the LD spouse. .


What about the many cases where women _do_ communicate, only to have their honestly offered reasons rejected as "not good enough" by their spouses? As AnonPink laid out in her post, there are times in a woman's life where stress and exhaustion legitimately kill the drive. If, instead of some patience and a willingness to accept reduced frequency of sex for the time being, a woman is met with shaming, anger and manipulative behavior, then the legitimate short-term "stress and exhaustion excuse" morphs seamlessly into the endless "I don't know where my desire went!" excuse because resentment now has its unholy hooks in her heart. 

I see it on TAM time and time again: "My wife says this, but I just don't buy it." Tread lightly fellas, tread lightly.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> I feel that he is trying to show me that he is at the end of his rope. He has been complaining over the last year about my lack of desire. It makes it impossible to solve this problem from my end. He always wanted me to have the same level of desire that he does, but I never did. I always went along with what he suggested in the bedroom. I was a virgin when we married, he had various sexual experiences with women (threesomes, anal, bdsm, etc). He thought that he could groom me to be an exceptional sex partner, also having the benefit of me having no past experiences with other guys.
> 
> He forgot one thing, that a 20 year old virgin may not like sex much, because if she did she would have been experimenting with different guys. So, he is frustrated now after 22 years of this. So am I. I'm waiting for a guy who shows interest and let's me be myself sexually.


I'm unclear on something here.

You say that he's been complaining over the past year regarding your desire level. The consequence of the complaining is that you cannot resolve this issue. I don't get this.

What would you consider to be solving this problem? Would you have actually been able to step up the sexual provision if he had eased up? I don't mean to be snide, but your statements that this has been a problem for 22 years and the complaints have been over the past year kind of begs the question.

Similarly, when you say you are looking for a guy that lets you be yourself sexually, what does that mean? Are you looking for someone who is okay with less frequency? Less variety? Would be happy with little to no sex at all (there are guys for whom once a year works, as odd as that may seem)?

I ask because my ex also asked for time but did not use that time to address the issue; she just wanted to rug-sweep the issue. Her "solution" was to marry a guy who weighs 350+ and has chronic health issues that likely make sex rare if not non-existent. But I know that's not everyone's response to this situation and would like to get a different perspective on this.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> What about the many cases where women _do_ communicate, only to have their honestly offered reasons rejected as "not good enough" by their spouses? As AnonPink laid out in her post, there are times in a woman's life where stress and exhaustion legitimately kill the drive. If, instead of some patience and a willingness to accept reduced frequency of sex for the time being, a woman is met with shaming, anger and manipulative behavior, then the legitimate short-term "stress and exhaustion excuse" morphs seamlessly into the endless "I don't know where my desire went!" excuse because resentment now has its unholy hooks in her heart.
> 
> I see it on TAM time and time again: "My wife says this, but I just don't buy it." Tread lightly fellas, tread lightly.


I agree you have to watch what you say and LISTEN to your LD spouse.

BUT... the LD spouse should be ready for some barbs after a period of serious sexual neglect and not just hunker down and exacerbate the situation further.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

We have gone off of the subject of talks, so let me return to it. Talking is EVERYTHING! If the communication is strong, so will everything else. If the love is there & the desire to do what it takes, through opening up to each other is there, so will the sex. I don't even blame LD vs HD, you should just want to make each other happy. My counselor once told me, that when there is a communication breakdown, then sex will be the first thing to go.
In my situation, I'm the stereotypical woman again because I share everything & believe in a lot of talking when there are issues. My wife leans toward avoiding conflicts & only partakes in daily small talk, she always says when she needs to say something, she will.
After a while you grow tired of talking to yourself & you become just good friends as a result. Talks only work when it's mutual & definitely not my case.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> But where does it end... the best this forum has to offer is two ladies that seem to after about *ten years* each have some light bulb go off and finally decide it might be them.
> 
> 
> AS a man we all have limits, its pointless after a period of time to keep bringing it up and if the female is too obtuse to recognize that then it falls on her. What bothers me is a LD spouse after being told in different ways seems to need *ten years* for it to sink in. That is ridiculous.


And can you guess what made me decide to take a look at myself in the first place? That's right, *he* happened to decide to do for *himself* what I had been asking him to do FOR US for ten years. Let me say it again: he couldn't or wouldn't do it when I expressed it as my need, but when he felt it as a need for himself, he acted upon it. 

I guess I should have told him "too little, too late you selfish bastard." 

I'll say it again: my story isn't your story. I likely have little in common with your wife, and my husband, quite obviously, is not like you. 




DTO said:


> I agree. You can only exist for 10 years in this state because you excuse away all the signs of trouble. Moreover, having restored your sex life after 10 years puts you in a miniscule sliver of marriages; the overall chances of that happening are so low as to be practically zero.


When there are multiple pressure points in a marriage, as there were in mine, lack of sex often does not perk to the surface as the cause. Rather, lack of sex is seen as a result of the poor relationship. Ten years to clean up a mess like we had isn't the same as us having this great marriage for ten years in which he begged me for sex and I blithely said "Not tonight my dear!" while dancing through the roses. 



DTO said:


> With the benefit of hindsight, my thoughts on this issue have evolved to:
> 
> 1) My wants and needs matter as much, and deserve as much time and attention, as those of any relationship partner I had previously or may have in the future.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a plan: that's great. Hindsight teaches us much, but be careful about assuming that your story is the story of every LD/HD marriage. If you don't care to put effort into a future LD partner, that is certainly your call. But don't forget there are plenty of men who come to TAM looking for advice on what THEY can do, because they are not ready to give up yet. Your advice might be "it's hopeless, move on," but I have a different story to offer. My outcome is the outcome some men still hope for in their marriages. Is my outcome rare: well, it seems to be among many TAM men. Now, is that because I am an outlier . . . _or is it because my husband is?_



DTO said:


> Another way to look at this is that getting help for this issue is easy:
> 
> 1) You go to your MD and say "I can't bring myself to have sex with my husband/wife and my marriage is in trouble. I need to do whatever it takes to turn this around and save my marriage."
> 
> ...


Check, check, and check. Fail, fail, and fail. Now what? Offer my husband an amicable divorce? Check. And now what?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> And can you guess what made me decide to take a look at myself in the first place? That's right, *he* happened to decide to do for *himself* what I had been asking him to do FOR US for ten years. Let me say it again: he couldn't or wouldn't do it when I expressed it as my need, but when he felt it as a need for himself, he acted upon it.


That is great that he did that. He took responsibility, and things began to change. He listened to you, on some level.

A older woman I once knew, a veteran homeschooler, told us at a conference, "Smart men listen to their wives."


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> That is great that he did that. He took responsibility, and things began to change. He listened to you, on some level.
> 
> A older woman I once knew, a veteran homeschooler, told us at a conference, "Smart men listen to their wives."


Well, jld, you're being very generous. My point was that he didn't change in order to meet my needs; he changed because it suited him own needs to do so at that time, ten years in. Instead of rejecting his change as too little, too late, I used it as the wiggle room I needed to change myself FOR HIM. 

I don't claim to be the bigger person here. I've come to realize that his suffering during those years was greater than mine. None of it had to be, though. We know better now, and we both look forward, not back.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> What about the many cases where women _do_ communicate, only to have their honestly offered reasons rejected as "not good enough" by their spouses? As AnonPink laid out in her post, there are times in a woman's life where stress and exhaustion legitimately kill the drive. If, instead of some patience and a willingness to accept reduced frequency of sex for the time being, a woman is met with shaming, anger and manipulative behavior, then the legitimate short-term "stress and exhaustion excuse" morphs seamlessly into the endless "I don't know where my desire went!" excuse because resentment now has its unholy hooks in her heart.
> 
> I see it on TAM time and time again: "My wife says this, but I just don't buy it." Tread lightly fellas, tread lightly.


I can see a few reasons why this would happen. First, perhaps the facts as told by the wife don't line up with the reality of the situation. If she tells him "I am too exhausted for sex" but still finds time to go out with her girlfriends, sign up for the bake sale, volunteers at church, etc. then he's going to smell a rat.

Second, maybe the requests that he accept less sex are coming too often, lasting too long, or are indefinite in nature. It's one thing to "sweetheart, I have a major project due in 10 days, so can we dial it back for the next two weeks until I get caught up?" It's quite another to say "yeah I'm not feeling like sex right now; just leave me alone about it and I'll let you when my feelings change", or to always be asking for a break, or not getting back to it when you say you will (as in the two weeks mentioned above turns into a month or longer).

Third, maybe balance from the marriage is missing. I was married with a fairly HD need. It's not a huge deal to go a week or two without sex, but longer and you are talking about a significant sacrifice. So, are these situations where the wife asks for a break from sex but makes it up to him later and/or accepts a lower level of service from him in return? Or, is the man expected to be the consistently dependable rock while the wife holds herself to a lower level of service?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Initiating "The Talk"...*

Want to say how much I truly appreciate your candor. I really do.

But I cannot help but imagine if we were to tweak this conversation and take honest "I don't know why ...", or thats just the way is, I can't help it, and I wish things were different mentality; and instead of a wife with no sex drive that keeps rejecting her husband, make it a husband trying to explain to his wife why he has chosen infidelity. He loves you ... loves his family, but he's having his sexual needs met elsewhere. Doesn't really know why, just feels no desire for you. Is that something 'love' would enable you to accept and live with? 

Do you see it as 2 sides of the same coin, or being completely unrelated?







GettingIt said:


> THIS is what I try to put forth in all my posts in which men seem to WANT to understand things from an LD point of view. And some men really do want to understand, as complex and as discouraging as it can be.
> 
> However, so many posts boil down to the "just do it" attitude. Whatever it is, what ever it takes, "just do it" for the sake of the marriage, for the sake of love, for the sake of morality, whatever.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> And can you guess what made me decide to take a look at myself in the first place? That's right, *he* happened to decide to do for *himself* what I had been asking him to do FOR US for ten years. Let me say it again: he couldn't or wouldn't do it when I expressed it as my need, but when he felt it as a need for himself, he acted upon it.
> 
> I guess I should have told him "too little, too late you selfish bastard."
> 
> I'll say it again: my story isn't your story. I likely have little in common with your wife, and my husband, quite obviously, is not like you.


How can you be so sure, he is a man just like I am and he was probably fed up with trying and getting nothing. You seem to think he changed for himself when in reality you finally woke up to the fact that your life and marriage was wasting away...and you took one long look at him and must have thought about self preservation after ten years of disconnect.

You are lucky YOU came around. He still does not forgive you. Ten years wasted congrats.

You waiting for HIM to come around is laughable. It was you all along. Your bringing on sexlessness caused all you disliked in him. The finest men fail under that scenario.
Still surprised he took you back.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Check, check, and check. Fail, fail, and fail. Now what? Offer my husband an amicable divorce? Check. And now what?


Okay, so just to be clear, you did the medical thing (checked for any illnesses or hormonal deficiencies), saw therapists, and none of that made a dent in your drive issues? I would have expected that putting in substantial, long-term effort (esp. at therapy) would have at least helped.

But I am in no way saying you didn't try. To the contrary, I applaud your efforts; you see so many people here who's refusing spouses refuse to seek help.

But in response to your question "what then", I'd say yes - starting over and finding a new partner is definitely appropriate at that time. I just don't see a good reason to keep beating one's head against a wall. I've evolved to the point that I don't see my marriage ending as my failure. I made a bad choice in accepting her marriage proposal and should have gotten out sooner. And I'm not blindly assuming that everyone is in my situation. But, having been through it, I see the signs and many of these situations have too many similarities to mine to ignore.

That book NMMNG we mention says to be all in for six months (that means be a good, attentive spouse). I think that's a reasonable timeframe.

Also, I wanted to clarify that my current mindset is not that I choose to not put effort into a LD partner in the future, as you indicated. I choose to not put effort into an _ungenerous_ LD spouse. There are women out there who believe strongly that plentiful sex underpins a strong marriage, and thus commit themselves to providing generously and cheerfully. There are stories out on TAM and other forums attesting to this. I am not the kind of guy who insists that his wife be hot for him or he derides anything she provides as duty sex.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> How can you be so sure, he is a man just like I am and he was probably fed up with trying and getting nothing. You seem to think he changed for himself when in reality you finally woke up to the fact that your life and marriage was wasting away...and you took one long look at him and must have thought about self preservation after ten years of disconnect.
> 
> You are lucky YOU came around. He still does not forgive you. Ten years wasted congrats.
> 
> ...


Dude, I think you need to check your tone a fair bit here. You can make a point, and even strongly disagree with someone, in a pleasant and constructive tone. Give it a shot.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> Dude, I think you need to check your tone a fair bit here. You can make a point, and even strongly disagree with someone, in a pleasant and constructive tone. Give it a shot.


I don't sugarcoat anything , I know what is going on living it myself. If people would quit trying to paint a pretty face on spousal neglect perhaps just perhaps we would have a better track record here. 

This whole sexless marriage stuff is an epidemic and it boils down to the LD partner getting a clue. Not the other changing, heck everyone changes some in ten years for the two that suddenly found themselves again sexual wives.

Nice raincheck decade for their spouses after basically hell on Earth for ten years.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

T2 you and I both know that a. Your wife is not LD. B. Your wife is evil. C. You should be taking every opportunity, every moment to remind her how bad a wife she is. You should be making it your mission to make her uncomfortable to be in the house. 

Btw is she still getting all dressed up to go out without you and hitting the gym all the time?


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> I can see a few reasons why this would happen. First, perhaps the facts as told by the wife don't line up with the reality of the situation. If she tells him "I am too exhausted for sex" but still finds time to go out with her girlfriends, sign up for the bake sale, volunteers at church, etc. then he's going to smell a rat.
> 
> Second, maybe the requests that he accept less sex are coming too often, lasting too long, or are indefinite in nature. It's one thing to "sweetheart, I have a major project due in 10 days, so can we dial it back for the next two weeks until I get caught up?" It's quite another to say "yeah I'm not feeling like sex right now; just leave me alone about it and I'll let you when my feelings change", or to always be asking for a break, or not getting back to it when you say you will (as in the two weeks mentioned above turns into a month or longer).
> 
> Third, maybe balance from the marriage is missing. I was married with a fairly HD need. It's not a huge deal to go a week or two without sex, but longer and you are talking about a significant sacrifice. So, are these situations where the wife asks for a break from sex but makes it up to him later and/or accepts a lower level of service from him in return? Or, is the man expected to be the consistently dependable rock while the wife holds herself to a lower level of service?


I don't have answers for you, DTO, I really don't. All I can say is that each person must decide for him or herself what they can and cannot accept as legitimate behavior from a spouse. I think that sometimes BS excuses are given by LD spouses. And I think that sometimes HD spouses are too quick to reject as BS honestly given reasons. And obviously both sides are loathe to look to themselves for change. 

It is not always one way or the other. There is no litmus test. I think one thing that we all would be served to remember is that there is a human being behind those "LD" and "HD" labels, more like us than not.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Your bringing on sexlessness caused all you disliked in him. The finest men fail under that scenario.
> Still surprised he took you back.


I don't disagree with this. 

I showed my husband your posts. His response was that he, too, has to live with uncertainty: is her change genuine? Will this last? Am I setting myself up for another round of hurt? 

We both assessed the risks, then grabbed one another's hands and jumped in the deep end. Who woulda thunk it: we can still swim.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I don't disagree with this.
> 
> I showed my husband your posts. His response was that he, too, has to live with uncertainty: is her change genuine? Will this last? Am I setting myself up for another round of hurt?
> 
> We both assessed the risks, then grabbed one another's hands and jumped in the deep end. Who woulda thunk it: we can still swim.


Truly I am happy you found god so to speak and your husband is willing to try to trust you again. Doubt though you will ever get back what you once had after ten years of neglect and the hell you put him through. He will always wonder is it real and was it ever real? That is lost.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> Okay, so just to be clear, you did the medical thing (checked for any illnesses or hormonal deficiencies), saw therapists, and none of that made a dent in your drive issues? I would have expected that putting in substantial, long-term effort (esp. at therapy) would have at least helped.


I went to therapy alone because he wouldn't go. For a year, I did the "fake it til you make it" thing, and we averaged about twice a week that year. He hated it. He knew what it was. I did my best to be cheerful and engaged, but he is a man who only wants sex if I can meet his level of desire. 

Therapy ended up being a great thing . . . . for me. I had been dreadfully unhappy due to my deteriorated marriage. With therapy, I pulled myself together and found a way to be happy. This actually made my husband's situation worse, because I had pulled myself into a functioning human being again, why wouldn't he? If had had known about MMSL or NMMNG at that point, if he had done the 180, I think we'd have pulled out of our sexual slump then. Instead I moved on, and he sunk further into depression. 



DTO said:


> But I am in no way saying you didn't try. To the contrary, I applaud your efforts; you see so many people here who's refusing spouses refuse to seek help.
> 
> But in response to your question "what then", I'd say yes - starting over and finding a new partner is definitely appropriate at that time. I just don't see a good reason to keep beating one's head against a wall. I've evolved to the point that I don't see my marriage ending as my failure. I made a bad choice in accepting her marriage proposal and should have gotten out sooner. And I'm not blindly assuming that everyone is in my situation. But, having been through it, I see the signs and many of these situations have too many similarities to mine to ignore.


I think we all tend to pick out the recognizable details in the stories we see here. But not all people are capable of doing what you do, or doing what I do, to move on or to fix things. Sometimes the appropriate thing to do is whatever you can mange. But MAKE A CHOICE and do SOMETHING. Don't just do nothing. 



DTO said:


> Also, I wanted to clarify that my current mindset is not that I choose to not put effort into a LD partner in the future, as you indicated. I choose to not put effort into an _ungenerous_ LD spouse. There are women out there who believe strongly that plentiful sex underpins a strong marriage, and thus commit themselves to providing generously and cheerfully. There are stories out on TAM and other forums attesting to this. I am not the kind of guy who insists that his wife be hot for him or he derides anything she provides as duty sex.


I agree. The issue for so many in an LD/HD dynamic isn't the sexual mismatch as much as it is 1) lack of communication or 2) selfishness in one partner or the other.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Truly I am happy you found god so to speak and your husband is willing to try to trust you again. Doubt though you will ever get back what you once had after ten years of neglect and the hell you put him through. He will always wonder is it real and was it ever real? That is lost.


I'll let you carry that load for us. We've moved on.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Want to say how much I truly appreciate your candor. I really do.
> 
> But I cannot help but imagine if we were to tweak this conversation and take honest "I don't know why ...", or thats just the way is, I can't help it, and I wish things were different mentality; and instead of a wife with no sex drive that keeps rejecting her husband, make it a husband trying to explain to his wife why he has chosen infidelity. He loves you ... loves his family, but he's having his sexual needs met elsewhere. Doesn't really know why, just feels no desire for you. Is that something 'love' would enable you to accept and live with?
> 
> Do you see it as 2 sides of the same coin, or being completely unrelated?


Me personally? No, I would not live with that, and don't see them as two sides of the same coin. I'll check with him if you want, but I'm pretty sure my husband would answer the same way. 

As I've said, I don't put forth my story to be prescriptive. I'm doing my best to honestly describe my descent from HD into LD and the climb back out again. It's an outrage to some, and inspiration to others. Use it as you see fit.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

GettingIt said:


> Me personally? No, I would not live with that, and don't see them as two sides of the same coin. I'll check with him if you want, but I'm pretty sure my husband would answer the same way.
> 
> As I've said, I don't put forth my story to be prescriptive. I'm doing my best to honestly describe my descent from HD into LD and the climb back out again. It's an outrage to some, and inspiration to others. Use it as you see fit.


No, no, I appreciate and respect your answer. And to be clear, I truly bear you no ill will. I think it's truly refreshing to have a few LD wives here being up-front and candid.

Just as wayward spouses get hammered in the boards, same can happen with spouses being honest about their low drive. I do want to make sure everyone remains respectful.

I was in a sexless marriage. It was very painful. Then I got outright angry, and I made it equally as painful for her. All the while wanting her to fight for the marriage as I felt I had ... for years. That didn't happen.
I moved out. We dissolved the marriage.
Neither of us are sexless any more.
All water under the bridge now. That was nearly six years ago.

However, I've made no bones about it in the past, and to be clear, I'm not itching for a fight here; but I make no distinction between fostering and perpetrating a sexless marriage, and infidelity.

Both are betrayal. Both kill trust and undermine the relationship. To me, the rest is just semantics.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Gettingit and TryingtoFigure,

Although your exchange might have felt conflicted, as an outsider reading I find it a healthy exchange.

Getting it, it is great that you saved your marriage. Better late than never. I know you have written a great deal on your thread, which I read sometime ago. But once you started enjoying sex again, did you ever cry, not for you husband but for yourself. Did you ever feel that you cheated yourself out of sexual pleasure and intimacy for a period of time that can never be recovered?

Don't stop writing even if you get attacked. You give hope.

I think the sooner the HD partner is willing to risk the sexless marriage for the unknown and do it as gracefully as possible, the better the chance of a miracle recovery of desire on part of the LD spouse. But if there is zero chemistry and little love, it may be impossible.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Deejo said:


> No, no, I appreciate and respect your answer. And to be clear, I truly bear you no ill will. I think it's truly refreshing to have a few LD wives here being up-front and candid.
> 
> *Former* LD, ahem, ahem.
> 
> ...


I understand that this is your view. But it is very much colored by your experience, which sounds different than mine, or my husband's. 

I sometimes I wish, knowing what I know now, that he would have done what you did, instead of enduring the pain. But he stayed, and he says he never blamed me for the issues we were having. He said he knew he was part of it, he just didn't know how fix his part. 

Don't you think you had a part in it, or came to have a part in it? Don't you think the anger changed you? I'm not saying you shouldn't have been angry. My husband had anger, too, which he very consciously dealt with, because he felt it changing him. And he didn't want that: for whatever outcome was headed his way. 

Thanks for your consideration in the exchange. This is an interesting place, TAM. The culture is notably different than that of the MMSL forum, my husband and I have noted.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Gettingit and TryingtoFigure,
> 
> Although your exchange might have felt conflicted, as an outsider reading I find it a healthy exchange.
> 
> Getting it, it is great that you saved your marriage. Better late than never. I know you have written a great deal on your thread, which I read sometime ago. But once you started enjoying sex again, did you ever cry, not for you husband but for yourself. Did you ever feel that you cheated yourself out of sexual pleasure and intimacy for a period of time that can never be recovered?


I cried for my husband for a long, long time. I still do. I sought out therapy to work through the guilt because it was negatively impacting our ability to move on. 

Yes, I think about the years I lost, too. I thought more about it during those years than I do now, though. 

But I think that one thing a lot of people don't remember, or don't know, about my story is that we were fighting for our marriage those ten years. We still had great sex a few times a month, we still had periods of peace. We still trusted one another, respected one another. We still did our jobs and enjoyed the kids. We spent time together as a family. We held the core together, even though it was painful. We talked. We tried. We wanted to fix things. 



LongWalk said:


> Don't stop writing even if you get attacked. You give hope.



Thanks. I have a pretty thick skin. 



LongWalk said:


> I think the sooner the HD partner is willing to risk the sexless marriage for the unknown and do it as gracefully as possible, the better the chance of a miracle recovery of desire on part of the LD spouse. But if there is zero chemistry and little love, it may be impossible.


I agree.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Well, this forum is where Athol cut his teeth after all. He posted here prior to MMSL taking off.

I absolutely had a part in it. I enabled it. I had no idea how to foster 'attraction'. She needed a leader. I had no idea ANY woman would want that in this day and age. I snicker at that thought now. Boundaries, deal-breakers, self-determination; being able to recognize when you no longer have a partner and instead have an adversary. Nobody can grow, or possibly feel fulfilled in that kind of dynamic.



GettingIt said:


> I understand that this is your view. But it is very much colored by your experience, which sounds different than mine, or my husband's.
> 
> I sometimes I wish, knowing what I know now, that he would have done what you did, instead of enduring the pain. But he stayed, and he says he never blamed me for the issues we were having. He said he knew he was part of it, he just didn't know how fix his part.
> 
> ...


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I had no idea how to foster 'attraction'. She needed a leader. I had no idea ANY woman would want that in this day and age.


I'm trying to get the word out . . .


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

GettingIt;6775969.
But I think that one thing a lot of people don't remember said:


> We still had great sex a few times a month we still had periods of peace. We still trusted one another, respected one another. We still did our jobs and enjoyed the kids. We spent time together as a family. We held the core together, even though it was painful. We talked. We tried. We wanted to fix things.




Now before everyone thinks they have a chance because GettingIt seemingly solved her marriage after ten years...read the above quote.

Several times a month is near normal sexual activity (great sex few times a month)...now they are having normal sex activity evidently and fights have decreased.

The chasm was not much to cross over* ten years* and the difference not so much... 

So I caution everyone to realize what her situation compared to what your own is. Which is commonly no sex for months/years or some pity sex/emotionally detached and its not great.

The only commonality I see is the LD spouse getting a clue through self preservation after her marriage was falling apart. I don't see her situation having many parallels to most here.

If her husband was getting it (great sex) a couple times a month he wasn't in the HELL most of us face. Heck that was the good point of my own marriage when there were no concerns.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Now before everyone thinks they have a chance because GettingIt seemingly solved her marriage after ten years...read the above quote.
> 
> Several times a month is near normal sexual activity (great sex few times a month)...now they are having normal sex activity evidently and fights have decreased.
> 
> ...


I think this valid to point out. I have tried to stress that I am an HD individual, _who lost sexual desire for my husband_ due to life circumstances that altered our former dynamic. 

I think there are plenty of posters here who are in a similar situation, or who might recognize parts of this situation, but as T2 points out, not all LD is created equal, and the effects it has on a marriage is not always the same.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I read some of your story GettingIt but I fail to see how your husband had much to do with it. You where HD, you stopped wanting as much sex, you where unhappy with a romance-less marriage you decided to fix it. The only thing he seems to have done is totally given up.

I guess you are saying that after five years or so he stopped mopping and acting needy and simply treated you like a partner more than a lover that had failed him. 

I believe most men will find that their wives are perfectly content with the partner relationship for a very long period of time. 

I think that you are an exception because you wanted the romance of a guy that was in love with you as a woman and not just love you as the mother of his kids. And then you rediscovered or saw more clearly the connection between romantic love and sex for men. 

I do have to agree moping about and threatening to go get serviced elsewhere is bad advice. I also believe that people need time to make changes. I am also failing to understand how Trying2figureitout is winning anything. 

But he seems to be following your husbands pattern in that for four years he has tried actively to make a change and now he has shifted to the I give up mode. Where you say that was the "improvement" that prompted your change. So maybe he can hope for the random luck that his wife actually misses romance any time soon.

Just for the HD's sanity I do usually advise them to check the resentment early on and either except what the wife has to offer and maybe try to keep building on the relationship as a whole in the hopes that a better sex life will someday follow -or move on.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

usmarriedguy said:


> I am also failing to understand how Trying2figureitout is winning anything.


Again there is no winning...

What happens for me at least is a sense of trying *my best *over a four year period... now that that has passed I'm in a interstellar space. I don't know what the future will hold.

I look at the whole marriage with sex being one component the rest make my marriage acceptable much like gettingIt apart from the sex and minus the fights.

I would not be surprised if my wife eventually comes around. I think the regular pressure in different forms could have not allowed her "space and time" she will get plenty of that now. I have moved on and accepted I tried and failed.

I do see signs however small of her changing, almost like she is following some advice, it could be she is actually putting forth some effort. I will keep TAM apprised of any major improvements. What I gain is sanity and separation from a vice which is sex.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Again there is no winning...
> 
> What happens for me at least is a sense of trying *my best *over a four year period... now that that has passed I'm in a interstellar space. I don't know what the future will hold.
> 
> ...


I read you thread in the CWI forum "Update....my wife's EA", did you confirm that your wife is no longer involved with the guy she was texting from the gym? Your story is not the typical sexless marriage, your situation involves athird party. How can you come over here acting like there is no hope, meanwhile you are glossing over your wife's affair, are you certain it didn't go to a PA?


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

techmom said:


> I read you thread in the CWI forum "Update....my wife's EA", did you confirm that your wife is no longer involved with the guy she was texting from the gym? Your story is not the typical sexless marriage, your situation involves athird party. How can you come over here acting like there is no hope, meanwhile you are glossing over your wife's affair, are you certain it didn't go to a PA?


My story will be fully updated in its own thread at a time of my choosing after any major change. I have enough knowledge to be able to look at these recoveries and point out how that are limited in scope. If mine ever resolves then there will be a real success story that more closely fits many of the situations here. There have been such successes but sadly the women involved were not the TAM posters and the guy is happy and has left TAM. I won't do that I will document success should it happen.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> My story will be fully updated at a time of my choosing after any major change. I have enough knowledge to be able to look at these recoveries and point out how that are limited in scope. If mine ever resolves then there will be a real success story that more closely fits many of the situations here. There have been such successes but sadly the women involved were not the TAM posters and the guy is happy and has left TAM. I won't do that I will document success should it happen.


The big difference between your story and many others is that there is no third party, no outside person who the "LD" person is focused on instead of the spouse. You are missing the point, did you perform surveillance on your wife to know for sure that she is not cheating. You are doing yourself and everyone else a disservice by not addressing this part of your relationship. Then you want to say that the solutions presented here is limited in scope, the wives in these other situations are not cheating, they are not texting another man hundreds of times a day.

That being said, it looks like you gave up on your marriage, and your wife has not stopped cheating. The update you post should include that as well, along with surveillance on your wife. If you want to help people it would work to tell the entire story.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Deejo said:


> But I cannot help but imagine if we were to tweak this conversation and take honest "I don't know why ...", or thats just the way is, I can't help it, and I wish things were different mentality; and.....


I'm paraphrasing a little, but Socrates is reputed to have said that philosophers are born out of unhappy marriages and that is an interesting philosophical question indeed.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Me personally? No, I would not live with that, and don't see them as two sides of the same coin. I'll check with him if you want, but I'm pretty sure my husband would answer the same way.


I believe Deejo was showing (Admittedly with an extreme example) that there is a point where primal desire must, of necessity take a back seat to abstract principle.

I think a less extreme example is found in any of the (Many) discussions on visual pornography here on TAM. The line that consistently gets drawn and the point where it becomes wrong to indulge primal desire is the point where it starts to harm your spouse. 

I'm not saying this to be argumentative because I really do accept what you've said as valid. I'm just pointing out the depth of the dichotomy here in pretty much any man's mind.

And again, high five and kudos to you for being willing to discuss this.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I read some of your story GettingIt but I fail to see how your husband had much to do with it. You where HD, you stopped wanting as much sex, you where unhappy with a romance-less marriage you decided to fix it. The only thing he seems to have done is totally given up.


I think if he can be "blamed" for anything, it was for morphing into a nice guy in an attempt to make me want to have sex with him again. But "blame" is a pejorative word, and it's not as though I'm saying he deserved what he got. He did not. It's only hindsight that allows us to understand what happened to us. 

His response to my initial dip in drive due to having two children in close succession, and MY response to his response is only a very small piece of the saga. 

It is, however, where it all began . . . .



usmarriedguy said:


> I guess you are saying that after five years or so he stopped mopping and acting needy and simply treated you like a partner more than a lover that had failed him.
> 
> I believe most men will find that their wives are perfectly content with the partner relationship for a very long period of time.


He was never happy with just cohabiting and co-parenting; he always wanted me as a lover. But he was not taking care of himself, and was not the man I had fallen in love with. I'm not sure that he ever stopped wanting me, but he did finally take a look at his own life and decide that he wanted more. He did make the effort to stop moping and take care of himself like I had been begging him to do for years. I think that was tipping point for me--I felt that he could be the man I wanted to be with as a lover again. 

Our "partner relationship" sucked. I wasn't ever content with it. I had found contentment outside of it, but I was ever aware that my marriage was a failure. 



usmarriedguy said:


> I think that you are an exception because you wanted the romance of a guy that was in love with you as a woman and not just love you as the mother of his kids. And then you rediscovered or saw more clearly the connection between romantic love and sex for men.


Am I the exception? I'm not so sure. I think perhaps my husband had a lot to do with my ability to want him again, and to work very hard on repairing what had been so damaged. Perhaps it is he who is the exception: I have not seen his equal on TAM. 

*In other words, I had a husband to return to. Someone I recognized. Not an empty shell of resentment and anger, not a man who could not forgive. Not a man who refused to believe he had any part in our struggle and wanted to see me punished.* 

No, we did not return to our old love of the early years, the years before the difficult decade. We have a completely new and different type of love and intimacy that is far more intense, far more self aware. What we have now is only possible because of what we survived. It is like an entirely new relationship, it is like falling in love again. 



usmarriedguy said:


> I do have to agree moping about and threatening to go get serviced elsewhere is bad advice. I also believe that people need time to make changes. I am also failing to understand how Trying2figureitout is winning anything.
> 
> But he seems to be following your husbands pattern in that for four years he has tried actively to make a change and now he has shifted to the I give up mode. Where you say that was the "improvement" that prompted your change. So maybe he can hope for the random luck that his wife actually misses romance any time soon.


Perhaps. But what will she see when she looks at him? What does she have to return to? He seems very much a man permanently damaged by his resentment to me. 



usmarriedguy said:


> Just for the HD's sanity I do usually advise them to check the resentment early on and either except what the wife has to offer and maybe try to keep building on the relationship as a whole in the hopes that a better sex life will someday follow -or move on.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. If a man is unable to weather the marriage without allowing resentment to change him, to make him smaller, then he should leave to preserve himself. A person should never trade their soul for hope.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I believe Deejo was showing (Admittedly with an extreme example) that there is a point where primal desire must, of necessity take a back seat to abstract principle.


I understand and accept this. Everyone must decide where to draw that line for themselves. The example Deejo gives crosses my line. My explanation of my situation crosses his.

Had I cheated on my husband, I guess I could have blamed him for not being desirable and thus fulfilling my primal needs, just as he could have cheated on me and blamed me for not fulfilling his. 

There is no right or wrong. I am just trying to shed light on what I've come to understand about how desire works for me, and, I suspect, for many women. It seems to be somewhat of an unwelcome topic at times, perhaps because it's so hard to figure out, and because it's counter to what society tells us is "correct." All this makes it seem like "too much work" to use as a valid consideration in repairing a sexual rift in marriage.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> His response to my initial dip in drive due to having two children in close succession, and MY response to his response is only a very small piece of the saga.
> 
> It is, however, where it all began . . .





GettingIt said:


> *In other words, I had a husband to return to. Someone I recognized. Not an empty shell of resentment and anger, not a man who could not forgive. Not a man who refused to believe he had any part in our struggle and wanted to see me punished.*





GettingIt said:


> Perhaps. But what will she see when she looks at him? What does she have to return to? He seems very much a man permanently damaged by his resentment to me.


You know, I completely understand from where you are coming. But, to be honest, I find that mindset very, very troubling.

I am the type of person that once I make a commitment, I fulfill it well. If I were to just have a big shift in attitude, and any actions or inactions from that shift harmed somebody in my family, I would expect to suffer some consequences as a result.

So, if I were in that situation, I would work to prove myself to the person I harmed before expecting any improvement on their part. I cannot fathom myself saying "yeah you got hurt and I caused it. You need to stop being a baby and suck it up". Because to do so is to essentially say that my needs and wants matter more, and that is straight bullsh!t.

So, since it's so against my grain, I have to ask: how does one get to a point where he or she hurts a loved one through a change in behavior (repeatedly, in TTFIO's case) and not feel compelled to make it up to that other person?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Often when people fall in love their idealize their spouse in many respects. They are having good sex. There is loyalty and bonding. Real life dashes a lot to earth. Lost jobs, financial mistakes, toxic friends, etc can all tarnish the sex appeal of basically decent husband. The wife revises her expectations of her husband. These new tests, which may or may not be vocalized, cause her even more frustration. When sex falls off because she resents these failures, the husband may at times even fail more.

Horrible to be at work asking customers to write positive reviews of your service performance while also thinking about the sexless nights. Some guys just don't feel on top of their game when both fronts are discouraging.

Must be very frustrating for wives to want their husbands to stand up to the alpha males bullies at work.

I remember an aunt and uncle of mine who owned a business together. My aunt was probably the better business brain but she ran my uncle down to all the family. My uncle had very little formal eductation but he was very intelligent and had great sense of humor. But he was a nice guy. He had trouble confronting people.

Once, for instance, my aunt discoverd that two women were systematically stealing from the business. It was my aunt who had to push to face them down and fire them. Another time she discovered that the bank that had charged high fees for handling the night deposit. My aunt fought those battles. She is a wonderful person warm and loving but very alpha. I can't imagine that they had good sex life... of course it's hard to imagine close relatives having sex, almost as bad as imagining your parents doing it.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> *In other words, I had a husband to return to. Someone I recognized. Not an empty shell of resentment and anger, not a man who could not forgive. Not a man who refused to believe he had any part in our struggle and wanted to see me punished.*
> 
> Perhaps. But what will she see when she looks at him? What does she have to return to? He seems very much a man permanently damaged by his resentment to me.


I wanted to add another thought to this discussion. My gut was telling me something was off, and I realized we are using the same words to describe different actions.

Resentment is a negative emotion experienced in reaction to a perceived mistreatment *in the past*. What TTFIO and GettingIt's husband are/were experiencing is not resentment. They are/were acting in opposition to *current* poor treatment (however ineffectively).

Calling this sort of behavior "resentment" (which has a very negative connotation) implies that it is unjustified and immature. It's like telling someone to just take it and treat the person offending you well regardless. It doesn't work that way; you can't move forward engaged with someone who caused the anger and then continues to treat you badly in the present.

The only way you could classify this behavior as resentment is if you don't feel that failing to meet your spouse's sexual needs qualifies as mistreatment. I know there are people who feel that way, but they probably are in the minority (at least on TAM).


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> You know, I completely understand from where you are coming. But, to be honest, I find that mindset very, very troubling.
> 
> I am the type of person that once I make a commitment, I fulfill it well. If I were to just have a big shift in attitude, and any actions or inactions from that shift harmed somebody in my family, I would expect to suffer some consequences as a result.
> 
> ...


I will try to offer my best guess... also this works within the framework of this discussion about talks.

The answer I believe is they feel no wrong at least initially.

I have been very direct in "the change of behavior" and even got a full admission that it was "unacceptable and needed fully remedied" yet hear we are.

That's why REPETITIVE talks don't work, what may eventually work is a reflection of what their lives have become. There are other factors involved as well in my case but bottom line is the other party does not see or hear wrong...they justify their position in everything else they do. That is my simplest explanation of how they get out of the compulsion to do something...doing something means they admit fault which they are not used to doing.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> You know, I completely understand from where you are coming. But, to be honest, I find that mindset very, very troubling.
> 
> I am the type of person that once I make a commitment, I fulfill it well. If I were to just have a big shift in attitude, and any actions or inactions from that shift harmed somebody in my family, I would expect to suffer some consequences as a result.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you, and I think it goes back to each person having to decide for themselves. I don't Trying2's story; so I can't comment on it beyond observing that he seems changed by his resentment, yet he stays in the very situation that damaged, and continues to damage, his character. He shouldn't take her back if can't do it without feeling the need to exact revenge, without feeling the need to give her a taste of her own medicine, without wanting her to be aware, for the rest of her life, that he doesn't forgive her. He might feel justified in doing so, but it's an erosion of his soul and character that hurts him more than it will hurt her. 

If I've downplayed how difficult this has been, that was not my intention. 

I fully expected to suffer consequences. I fully intended to work to prove myself to my husband without expecting anything from in in return. I never expected him to suck it up, or carry on as if those years hadn't happened. I understood fully the pain he'd suffered. I knew it could well mean he would never trust me again. I was prepared for consequences. 

And things were hard at the beginning, but slowly improved as I continued to work on myself beyond repairing my libido and being fully honest with my husband about my feelings during those years. I didn't just hop in bed and say "I'm ba-ack!" Not by a long shot. He didn't open his arms and say, "Hey, babe, that's okay; don't worry about it!" 

I took a very, very close look at myself -- my emotional habits and behaviors, my hang ups and inhibitions, my fears and desires. I learned how to lay them all out on the table, and my husband has followed suit. We don't have the same dynamic anymore, because we're no longer the same people.

He needed me to demonstrate a true appreciation of my sorrow and regret. Mostly he needed me to communicate, as much as as clearly as I could, what my understanding of those years was, and what had changed for me. We regularly talked through the night, and we still do. It's an ongoing healing process. It has fundamentally changed our lives for the past year. There were horrible setbacks, I felt despair and helplessness at times. I feared it was too little, too late. But we both kept going. 

Did the sex come back right away? Yes it did. I committed to never rejecting him again, and I never have. Initiating was difficult for him for a long time, so I made sure to do it. The healing of our emotional intimacy was a slower, more painful process than of our sexual intimacy. Sex was always the language that we spoke best; it was only in words that we had ever failed to communicate well. We learned to overcome that. We got better at it then we ever had been, and then tweaked it again. When we started to see the successes in leaps and bounds, it just encouraged us to keep going, to strive to make things even better. My desire for him has gotten stronger and stronger; I've never felt this way before. It's a harmonizing of the physical and the emotional that is very nearly . . . spiritual.

Perhaps my story is so unusual as to be ineffective as a source of ideas or inspiration to others. But it did happen, and it only happened because, even after those bad years, we both were able to look at the other and still see someone we could love and respect.

I think its time for me to bow out of this thread. There are lots of other stories to be told.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Initiating "The Talk"...*

I do feel for your circumstances. For me and my journey through and coming out on the other side of these circumstances; your post pretty much sums up why I would never ever put up with the kind of dynamic we are talking about.

I realize that some of my positions sound like sour grapes. I can only assure you they are not. I have no grudge or axe to grind. For me, now, 'that's just the way it is ...'

Not trying to sound glib, or criticize. I simply wouldnt accept it for myself, and do know quite well at this point, that yes, a partner that basically chooses NOT to be a partner can be replaced. Easily if in fact the person being rejected or shut out, is a high value partner.

You cant chide your partner for not making you feel special and desirable and loved, when your actions and mindset are poisoning the well. I'm talking about both genders, and I'm referring to resentment in particular.




techmom said:


> I feel that GettingIt's post illustrates how I feel. Men want desire, not duty sex. OK, so what is the solution? The men may hate this, but I feel that the begging, pleading, bargaining, and all of that does so much damage that I would want to swear off sex forever. With my husband. I still have desire butit is buried under all of the resentment of the relationship. * In a new relationship it may come forth for the new partner.* The LD may feel this way but won't say it for fear of what the HD may say or do.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I am still not seeing how your husband is any different GettingIt.

I think that the majority of posters here want to keep their family intact and just want the woman they married back.

I have to guess that your husband would not have sounded very happy either after 4 years of the cold shoulder.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I am still not seeing how your husband is any different GettingIt.
> 
> I think that the majority of posters here want to keep their family intact and just want the woman they married back.
> 
> I have to guess that your husband would not have sounded very happy either after 4 years of the cold shoulder.


I meant in his willingness to accept and understand that my desire was affected by his behavior (even as it was a reasonable reaction to my own behavior), and to work with me happily on addressing that.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Had I cheated on my husband, I guess I could have blamed him for not being desirable and thus fulfilling my primal needs, just as he could have cheated on me and blamed me for not fulfilling his.
> 
> There is no right or wrong....


I think there probably should be at least some qualification about "Right and wrong" (?)

I'll illustrate this with an extreme, but true example. A little known fact about the 1963 movie, _Cleopatra_ is that Eddie Fisher was married to Elizabeth Taylor at the time filming started. The chemistry between Taylor and costar, Richard Burton is palpable when you watch the movie even now, 50+ years later and is reflective of the fact that an affair between the two developed during shooting of the film.

Burton and Taylor did not bother to conceal the affair and it became common knowledge. Fisher was understandably despondent about this and some of his friends pointed out to him privately that the film was being shot in Italy and Italy at the time was neither investigating nor prosecuting "Crimes of passion." In other words, Fisher could have gunned Burton down execution style and as long as there were no witnesses, Italian authorities would have simply shrugged. 

Fisher did not do this and I think we could all agree today that he made the right choice. Maybe he realized that the American Hollywood culture of disposable marriages and the extremely old school Italian notions of not publicly disgracing another man like that were far too volatile a combination. Or maybe it was a true triumph of a man's ethical side over his animal side. I don't know. 

I do know that marriage is a social construct springing directly from some of the basic notions of right and wrong that make human civilization possible in the first place, although the specific nature of that commitment varies considerably from marriage to marriage to marriage.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I think there probably should be at least some qualification about "Right and wrong" (?)


I was referring to feelings, not actions. There is no guidebook on how to "feel" when confronted with certain behaviors from our spouses. I meant my observation to go no further, and certainly not to be a commentary on the worth of morals/ethics.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

GettingIt said:


> I meant in his willingness to accept and understand that my desire was affected by his behavior (even as it was a reasonable reaction to my own behavior), and to work with me happily on addressing that.


All we need to do is swap a few words around, and this is quite simply the universal solution. Sad fact is, painful few actually implement it.



> Her willingness to accept and understand that my behavior was affected by her desire (even as it was reasonable reaction to my own behavior), and to work with me happily on addressing that.


The problem becomes that whoever has lost 'desire' can and does, easily rationalize that they can't have sex because they don't feel desire. Conversely, nobody really cuts much slack when it comes to what they regard as 'changes in behavior'. 

In this way, I actually completely agree with GettingIt, it's a dynamic that BOTH people build. And it almost always gets framed around rationalization. "She's tired tonight, I'll leave her alone." Then 'tonight' turns into a 12 week stretch. Or, "He spends too much time on the computer, with his friends, and doesn't pay any attention to me, I'm so angry I don't want him to touch me." And voila, lack of desire.

My remedy for these conditions ... for me ... is extraordinarily easy, and I GUARANTEE, anyone can do it.

Pay attention.

Behave in a fashion that is in alignment with your beliefs, and makes your partner feel valued and loved.

If you are doing these things and your partner simply isn't on board? Then it's time for a new partner. More specifically, it's time for a new partner after you close the books on your existing one.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I was referring to feelings, not actions. There is no guidebook on how to "feel" when confronted with certain behaviors from our spouses. I meant my observation to go no further, and certainly not to be a commentary on the worth of morals/ethics.


My mistake and apologies.... It seemed to me that you were speaking in the context of cheating.

I'm going to leave you alone here and quit questioning the consistency in the notion that a couple's feelings can simultaneously exculpate and indict. 

Thanks for humoring me.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM1363 introduced me to a term quite some time ago, and it has resonated with me ever since; emotional symmetry.

Finding and maintaining emotional symmetry seems to be the key to making things run smoothly. Being able to recognize when it's out of alignment and recover it, or when it simply cannot be resolved is an important personal trait. Knowing that your partner shares that trait is now something that I consciously look for. Also explains why I haven't re-partnered for the long haul.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Deejo said:


> MEM1363 introduced me to a term quite some time ago, and it has resonated with me ever since; emotional symmetry.
> 
> Finding and maintaining emotional symmetry seems to be the key to making things run smoothly. Being able to recognize when it's out of alignment and recover it, or when it simply cannot be resolved is an important personal trait. Knowing that your partner shares that trait is now something that I consciously look for. Also explains why I haven't re-partnered for the long haul.


"Emotional symmetry" is a good way to put it. I'll have to look for MEM's post on it. I would say that this describes what my husband and I were able to discover and implement. Once you have it and understand it, it's much easier to recognize when it's off the tracks.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

First time I had heard the term was here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/16221-how-about-them-apples-6.html#post180719
That thread and discussion is 4 years old. Wow ... time flies when you're dealing with marital dysfunction. Very different place for me now. 

If you can't tell, I am very big on attraction and sexual/interpersonal dynamics.

MEM's a very insightful man. Don't see him on as much as I used to, but he does still post.

Love your sig by the way, and the band too.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Pay attention.
> 
> Behave in a fashion that is in alignment with your beliefs, and makes your partner feel valued and loved.


:iagree:


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> We don't know why! We can't figure it out. We wonder if we have lost our love. We need our men to be men and keep bringing the issue up, keep trying to get us out of our heads, keep trying to get us to,open up and keep being the strong one because we are lost and we don't know why our desire just disappeared. YES we have to try, but we need our men to stand up to us and make us try.


Actually, some women want that (and kudos go to those that do). You see a fair amount of women here on TAM (and men married to such women) who want nothing more than to be left untouched and let the sex life die.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I agree you have to watch what you say and LISTEN to your LD spouse.
> 
> BUT... the LD spouse should be ready for some barbs after a period of serious sexual neglect and not just hunker down and exacerbate the situation further.


I'm not so sure about letting the barbs fly. Somebody might accept it as the fallout from creating this bad situation, and another person might get offended and shut down.

I think the real risk in having this talk is that both partners must be willing to compromise and work through the issue. Listening and really hearing what the LD spouse is saying does not mean that the LD will get a free pass, nor should it.

As sad as such a situation may be, let's say that an LD spouse finally gets the courage to say "I have sex hangups from a bad childhood. I didn't admit it before and I'm sorry. But, I just don't like sex and need you to accept that and back off". It's entirely possible (and reasonable) that the HD spouse says "that really is terrible. But I will not give an indefinite free pass. You need some serious therapy. Once you have a healthy sexual outlook, then we can compromise on the remaining gap in sex drive."

Just recently, my daughter was pissed off because I insisted she do her homework well and not just be half-a$$ed about it. She had made the comment that if I really understood how she felt about her homework, I would do things her way. I wonder how often this scenario plays out in these HD/LD discussions.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Little update. I've kind of tried a little bit of all the advice given here and nothing seemed to be working... or so it seemed. I'm not sure if I've mentioned it here but I told her a few months ago that I don't think she should go on any contraceptives ATM since we're not even having sex anyway. I haven't been putting any excessive pressure on her but made sure that she knew I wasn't happy with the new status quo. I've been firm with her where everything else is concerned yet not an ass. Gave her a full body massage and foot rub on separate occasions and didn't push for sex afterward. She didn't offer it either. Lol. On Valentine's Day, I made her a nice candle lit breakfast where I woke her at 5:30am just before the kids are due to wake for their school morning routine. She seemed agitated at me waking her before her alarm did. I think she thought I was going to try and get some. I whispered that her alarm did in fact go off but she never heard it. As she walked down stairs and into the living room, I closed her eyes and guided her to the dark candle lit kitchen. Kitchen table had a single seat setup with bacon; eggs; pork sausages; beans; avocado; toast and cheese sticks. A bunch of her favorite color roses were sitting in a vase on the table. I just said "Happy Valentine's Day"; gave her a kiss on her cheek and told her to enjoy the breakfast. She was stunned and as I was turning to walk away, she pulled me back and hugged me for a long time. She started to cry during the hug. I didn't react to the tears. Just dried them with my sleeve; kissed her forehead and walked away. She asked me to join her but I declined saying I'm making my other 2 Valentines (our 2 daughters) breakfast too. She said Ok. I made the kids their cereal and gave them their roses too. Wife seemed very pleased. I never got anything from her but I wasn't expecting anything anyway. Well, I imagine she was feeling guilty during the day and went out and got me 3 gifts, one from each of them. 
There was no intimacy on the day. The next day I receive a text from her saying that she's starting to take the pill again. I asked her why since we're not having sex even. She replied that she wants us to be happy. I replied that having sex is not going to magically make us happy and that finding out why we weren't having sex should be what we should be doing rather. She never replied to that text. 
So, she's been asking me to remind her every day about taking her pill coz she's bound to forget. Instead of reminding her constantly, I'veset her pphone up to remind her instead. I'm interested to see if she follows through with, first of all taking her pill daily and then also the latest version of "sex is all that's missing in our marriage". I know that she's just setting me up for more disappointment further down the road. I know exactly how this will pan out... This ain't our first Rodeo on this road hey. As soon as she's "safe" and we can have sex, she'd want us to first cuddle for a few days with me not initiating sex at all. Then, once the cuddle phase has passed, she's gna say something along the lines of "just hold me tonight". Then, she's gna come down with either a throat sore or a cramping stomach. Sore throat and cramping stomach usually lasts for around 3 or 4 days. We'll eventually get around to having sex but it won't even be sex. It's gna be her acting like like this is the first time she's ever had sex. Lots of "ouches" and "slowly" and "just the head for now" and "just rub my clit with your penis, don't put it in". This all while I'm on top. She won't budge when I do try and get her on top. She'll be totally unsympathetic toward my having just been doing an hour long push up while still not having any sex. Eventually she'll tell me to get off coz the moment has passed but i should just hold her while we lay there naked. She'll fall asleep shortly afterward and I'd be left with a boner so hard and so painful that my balls and stomach will pain so intensely that I'd have to use some of my spinal operation pain medication to catch some relief. The next morning she'd wake up as usual and bring me coffee. The next night she's gna ask me to not try anything coz last night tired her out. She's gna want me to just hold her again for that night. Eventually, usualy around a week after this, she'd go bath one night after i did and do the whole candles and bubble bath thing for herself. She would come out of the bath around an hour later in something sexy wearing make up with her hair done too and wearing the red stiletto knee high boots I love so much. We would have to take it extra slow tonight. We'll have sex (missionary of course) ) and I'd cum but she wouldn't. Or maybe she would. I don't know. She'd claim it was awesome while in mind I'd know it was probably below average. But I'd play along as not to hurt her feelings coz according to her what she's just done is on par with man walking on the moon for the first time. We would try again around 3 days later. Much of the same as above. Maybe we finish, maybe we don't. Around a week later we'd give it another go. This time it will be awesome. Like a Symphony. All positions. Her being totally into it. Everything going perfectly. She will orgasm once or twice by herself and finally we'd orgasm together. We won't have sex for the next week or 2 and then have sex one night again and soon thereafterit will be ttime for our next 3 -6 month drought coz now, all I want is just sex from her. 
I guess what I'm trying to find out is how do I play this whole "we'll soon be having sex again" game. I'm simply too tired and don't have the energy for this whole back and forth game. I've played it one time too many and I don't like the rules anymore. 
Help good people of TAM. I feel I'm gna say or do the wrong thing long before we ever get to any PIV or POV.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

If my husband did all that for me on Valentines Day I'd think he was just fine with everything and if I was the kind of woman who didn't believe in doing anything that wasn't for my particular benefit I'd just keep on doing only what was comfortable to me.

My husband and I had a bad couple of years a few years ago. That Valentines Day I got a card that basically said, Dear Lyris, happy Valentines Day, love Mr Lyris. That was it. Compare it to this year when I got one that said "To my darling wife Lyris, thank you for all the loving and caring you give to me. There no one else I'd rather have as my Valentine. All my love, Mr Lyris"

That second one is basically similar to all the other cards I've got from him over the more than 20 years we've been together. The first one was an aberration. It showed me how deeply f*cked up things were. 

Now maybe he should have been more direct, but you don't spend this long with someone without learning how they communicate. 

Why should your wife put in any effort if you are going to treat her romantically either way?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Little update. I've kind of tried a little bit of all the advice given here and nothing seemed to be working... or so it seemed. I'm not sure if I've mentioned it here but I told her a few months ago that I don't think she should go on any contraceptives ATM since we're not even having sex anyway. I haven't been putting any excessive pressure on her but made sure that she knew I wasn't happy with the new status quo. I've been firm with her where everything else is concerned yet not an ass. Gave her a full body massage and foot rub on separate occasions and didn't push for sex afterward. She didn't offer it either. Lol.
> 
> On Valentine's Day, I made her a nice candle lit breakfast where I woke her at 5:30am just before the kids are due to wake for their school morning routine. She seemed agitated at me waking her before her alarm did. I think she thought I was going to try and get some. I whispered that her alarm did in fact go off but she never heard it. As she walked down stairs and into the living room, I closed her eyes and guided her to the dark candle lit kitchen. Kitchen table had a single seat setup with bacon; eggs; pork sausages; beans; avocado; toast and cheese sticks. A bunch of her favorite color roses were sitting in a vase on the table. I just said "Happy Valentine's Day"; gave her a kiss on her cheek and told her to enjoy the breakfast.
> 
> She was stunned and as I was turning to walk away, *she pulled me back and hugged me for a long time. She started to cry during the hug. I didn't react to the tears.* Just dried them with my sleeve; kissed her forehead and walked away. *She asked me to join her but I declined *saying I'm making my other 2 Valentines (our 2 daughters) breakfast too. She said Ok. I made the kids their cereal and gave them their roses too.


First, that was incredibly sweet what you did for valentines day!

I thought her response was rather telling... She obviously feels the disconnect and doesn't like it.




> Wife seemed very pleased. I never got anything from her but I wasn't expecting anything anyway. Well, I imagine she was feeling guilty during the day and went out and got me 3 gifts, one from each of them.
> 
> There was no intimacy on the day. *The next day I receive a text from her saying that she's starting to take the pill again. *I asked her why since we're not having sex even. She replied that she wants us to be happy. I replied that having sex is not going to magically make us happy and that finding out why we weren't having sex should be what we should be doing rather. She never replied to that text.


This was her very subtle was of saying she wants to resume your sex life. You pushed for accountability and she shut down.



> So, she's been asking me to remind her every day about taking her pill coz she's bound to forget. Instead of reminding her constantly, I'veset her pphone up to remind her instead. I'm interested to see if she follows through with, first of all taking her pill daily and then also the latest version of "sex is all that's missing in our marriage".


She is trying to get you to be more aware. By you reminding her to take the pill, you get reminded that she is a sexual being. 

Stay with me here... I can hear you rolling your eyes....




> I know that she's just setting me up for more disappointment further down the road. I know exactly how this will pan out... This ain't our first Rodeo on this road hey.
> 
> As soon as she's "safe" and we can have sex, she'd want us to first cuddle for a few days with me not initiating sex at all. Then, once the cuddle phase has passed, she's gna say something along the lines of "just hold me tonight". Then, she's gna come down with either a throat sore or a cramping stomach. Sore throat and cramping stomach usually lasts for around 3 or 4 days.
> 
> We'll eventually get around to having sex but it won't even be sex. It's gna be her acting *like like this is the first time she's ever had sex. Lots of "ouches" and "slowly" and "just the head for now" and "just rub my clit with your penis, don't put it in". This all while I'm on top. *She won't budge when I do try and get her on top.


This has me wondering if she has painful intercourse often and if so, how often? If this is a woman who isn't comfortable talking about sex and avoids those conversations, it doesn't seem likely that she would seek treatment for painful intercourse.




> She'll be totally unsympathetic toward my having just been doing an hour long push up while still not having any sex. Eventually she'll tell me to get off coz the moment has passed but i should just hold her while we lay there naked.
> 
> She'll fall asleep shortly afterward and I'd be left with a boner so hard and so painful that my balls and stomach will pain so intensely that I'd have to use some of my spinal operation pain medication to catch some relief. The next morning she'd wake up as usual and bring me coffee. The next night she's gna ask me to not try anything coz last night tired her out. She's gna want me to just hold her again for that night.


Yes I can imagine that must be highly frustrating. It sound like even when you two do have sex, it's not very good sex. Granted, maybe the restrictions she puts in place on you prevent you from being able to sufficiently arouse her. But she doesn't seem to be excited, aroused and obviously not enjoying herself.




> Eventually, usualy around a week after this, she'd go bath one night after i did and do the whole candles and bubble bath thing for herself. *She would come out of the bath around an hour later in something sexy wearing make up with her hair done too and wearing the red stiletto knee high boots I love so much.* We would have to take it extra slow tonight. We'll have sex (missionary of course) ) and I'd cum but she wouldn't. Or maybe she would. I don't know.
> 
> *She'd claim it was awesome *while in mind I'd know it was probably below average. But I'd play along as not to hurt her feelings coz according to her what she's just done is on par with man walking on the moon for the first time.
> 
> ...


I think your wife has extremely low sexual confidence. I think she avoids sex because she knows she's really bad at it. I think the boots and red outfit after her bath is her way of trying to make it better without actually doing anything outside of her comfort zone.

I also think your wife probably has some form of sexual dysfunction like vulvodynia or vaginismus. I don't know if either of these conditions are sporadic or complete, but she needs to see a doctor about it.

When you first posted this thread, I suggested you have names and number of sex therapists. Have you done that yet?

I think your wife has some big time sexual hang ups and you need to challenge her on them. She needs to see her doc about the painful intercourse and shoe need sex therapy.

I think she does love you. I think she doesn't know how to love you. She doesn't know how to let go of her hang up and she doesn't now how to be a better lover because she can't let go of her hang ups.

Get her to a sex therapist. Don't tell her it's a sex therapist, just tell her it's a therapist. 

I had a ton of issues withs sex. My husband ignored the problem and waited for me to fix it. It took almost 20 years for me to get it done because he remained silent and distant. Don't remain silent and don't become distant.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My thought, upon reading your update... I understand your cynicism, having been through more than a few rodeos myself. But make sure that your cynicism/realism doesn't prevent her from making actual changes. If you're going to continue to keep up your brick wall of defence, why bother staying in the marriage? Why bother making romantic gestures? Might as well just throw in the towel if your heart is already turned to stone. 

C


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Lyris said:


> If my husband did all that for me on Valentines Day I'd think he was just fine with everything and if I was the kind of woman who didn't believe in doing anything that wasn't for my particular benefit I'd just keep on doing only what was comfortable to me.
> 
> My husband and I had a bad couple of years a few years ago. That Valentines Day I got a card that basically said, Dear Lyris, happy Valentines Day, love Mr Lyris. That was it. Compare it to this year when I got one that said "To my darling wife Lyris, thank you for all the loving and caring you give to me. There no one else I'd rather have as my Valentine. All my love, Mr Lyris"
> 
> ...



When we were going through our bad patch I sent a Valentines day card that said something like "Happy Valentines day, what a f*****g joke."

Not a moment I was proud of but strangely it seemed from that day on we started to improve.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> When we were going through our bad patch I sent a Valentines day card that said something like "Happy Valentines day, what a f*****g joke."
> 
> Not a moment I was proud of but strangely it seemed from that day on we started to improve.


Because you were honest about it, Wysh. Transparency can work miracles.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Yes, maybe, just looking back it seems a little passive aggressive to me.

Although it did come on the back of a lot of trying to 'fix' things together.

Maybe it was the spur we both needed?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I totally think so. 

It did not seem passive aggressive to me. Why do you think so?


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I think of passive aggressiveness as displaying your anger, dissatisfaction etc. by other means than directly talking to the source of your anger.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> I think of passive aggressiveness as displaying your anger, dissatisfaction etc. by other means than directly talking to the source of your anger.


Okay. I don't think you were too far off the mark there with that card. It's not like you did not give her a card at all.

I think you could have done much worse, Wysh!


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I think passive aggressive would be purposefully ignoring the day or giving an I love you card but letting your behavior/actions send the opposite message. 

You certainly spelled it out and where direct Wysh. 

I agree with Anon, 
seems like maybe some pain issues among other things that she needs therapy for. 

Maybe she wants you to take a more active role and that is why she wants you to remind her about the pill?

Seems (if I am reading this correctly) that two or three weeks after sex starts it becomes good.

_"Around a week later we'd give it another go. This time it will be awesome. Like a Symphony. All positions. Her being totally into it. Everything going perfectly. She will orgasm once or twice by herself and finally we'd orgasm together. 

...We won't have sex for the next week or 2 and then have sex one night again and soon thereafterit will be ttime for our next 3 -6 month drought coz now, all I want is just sex from her."_


So the problem is how to keep it going.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Congratulations. Your training has really paid off. You've succeeded in making your wife sexless.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> When we were going through our bad patch I sent a Valentines day card that said something like "Happy Valentines day, what a f*****g joke."
> 
> Not a moment I was proud of but strangely it seemed from that day on we started to improve.


I think that's awesome


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Lyris said:


> If my husband did all that for me on Valentines Day I'd think he was just fine with everything and if I was the kind of woman who didn't believe in doing anything that wasn't for my particular benefit I'd just keep on doing only what was comfortable to me.
> 
> My husband and I had a bad couple of years a few years ago. That Valentines Day I got a card that basically said, Dear Lyris, happy Valentines Day, love Mr Lyris. That was it. Compare it to this year when I got one that said "To my darling wife Lyris, thank you for all the loving and caring you give to me. There no one else I'd rather have as my Valentine. All my love, Mr Lyris"
> 
> ...


"One doesn't make an omelette without cracking open a few eggs" 

This sexless marriage thing didnt come with a "how to" manual. I wish it did though. I wish that I had an inkling of what a sexless marriage was before I ever got married. That way, I'd at least make double sure that sex was part of the deal, so to speak and if it wasn't, then I'd never have proposed. The term "sexless marriage" never ever formed part of my vocabulary. I never knew such a thing existed. I was totally blindsided. With that being said, one plays the hand we're dealt. While I dont plan on playing this hand forever, I am trying to at least equip myself with the knowledge which should help me/us overcome.
I know that many here on TAM dont agree with sometimes playing Mr Nice Guy but it comes natural and it's not something many of us set out to be. It's just the way we are. Yes, we fervently try and change aspects thereof which are taken advantage of but for the most part, we remain Nice Guys at heart.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I agree, she does seem to finally be getting it and noticing that things are not how they should be and finally starting to do something about it.
I get that it was her way of extending the proverbial olive branch. As much as I'd like for us to start having sex again, I still insist that instead of sweeping this elephant under the rug, we should disect it and get to the root cause. I know that she doesnt want to discuss causes and effects while I feel it's important to.
About her wanting me to remind her about the pill... I dont think it's about her wanting me to see her as a sexual being or even to involve me in the process. It's just that she's extremely forgetful. On the other hand, I want her to want to remember to take it herself. I want, us having sex, to be such an important aspect that she doesnt forget to take it. Also, it makes me feel kind of sleazy when I remind her everyday. Then it seems like sex is always on my mind coz I never forget to remind her. That would probably turn into an argument later on too. Catch 22...
The sex is not always painful. I remember, while dating, we'd go at it like rabbits. That's coz we were having sex daily. These days, I feel, there are too much days/weeks/months in between our sexual encounters hence her vagina not being used to having a penis inside it. If we were to go back to the way things were, then the "slowly" "ouch" moans would stop for sure.
I agree with you... she hasnt been really into sex for a long time. Even when she initiates, it's still very *bleh*
I remember, that she used to be pretty good at this sex thing back when we were dating. She was very fun.
You're right. I also think that a visit to her OB GYN should definitely be on the cards.
She's totally against the idea of seeing a sex therapist. Not negotiable.
I agree with her having hang ups over sex. I just cant understand why they only surfaced once we were married.
I wont remain silent.
I'll see if I can pull the wool over her eyes WRT seeing a "therapist"

Thank You for your replies. I appreciate them.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> My thought, upon reading your update... I understand your cynicism, having been through more than a few rodeos myself. But make sure that your cynicism/realism doesn't prevent her from making actual changes. If you're going to continue to keep up your brick wall of defence, why bother staying in the marriage? Why bother making romantic gestures? Might as well just throw in the towel if your heart is already turned to stone.
> 
> C


Noted!!!


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I think passive aggressive would be purposefully ignoring the day or giving an I love you card but letting your behavior/actions send the opposite message.
> 
> You certainly spelled it out and where direct Wysh.
> 
> ...


Well... yes.
She blows cold for way longer than she blows hot. Just need to figure out why she's set to blow cold by default ever since we got married.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Congratulations. Your training has really paid off. You've succeeded in making your wife sexless.


??????


----------



## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

Wannabe sorry to state the obvious but the way you describe you and your wife's sex life - quite frankly it sucks. Do you think you may be a bit too passive and accommodating to her vast array of 'put offs' and sorry to say, c0ck blocks?

I think doing all that stuff for V day was a colossal mistake. You're unhappy why make out that everything is hunky dorey and that she's not shutting you down every time you want a mature honest convo about the state of your sex life?

Grand romantic gestures for her maybe when you're both making each other happy and not shutting the other out of sex without communication. And she didn't even get you anything until later when she saw what you had done. And no sex even!

There was also an opening there at the table where she invited you to join her - you should have taken up the offer.

I also think her texting you saying she was taking the pill is code for I want to resume sex again. Maybe you could respond with, 'great! Can't wait!' If you do resume you need to talk about the sex - b/c you must have the patience of a saint. All that rig morale about 'just hold me' and 'I'm made of glass' or 'just stick the head in' - you're letting her call the shots on everything. It's all one sided. I'm getting frustrated just reading all the hoops you jump through just to 'almost get laid'. Unbelievable. :scratchhead:

I just think you're doing way too much. You need to turn it down a bit. Wait until you see a lot of consistent positive actions not words, towards you. I would insist on a sex therapist. I know you said she's not interested but is she interested in saving the marriage?


----------



## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

Maybe the next time she makes her grand entrance in her red boots, you could look off into the distance with a bored look on your face, give a deep sigh and say: "I've got a sore throat and my stomach's cramping. I'll just stick the tip of my pinky in. Then I just want to be held".

I don't know if this was covered before, but is she masturbating on the regular without your knowledge?


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Hey FB
I agree with your first response completely. Undoubtedly. 

Your 2nd response made me lol. Really. You're a funny guy. 

PS: No... she does not fly solo. I've asked her a couple times over the years why not and she said she just doesnt.

It's very obvious that she's totally indifferent as to whether or not she ever has sex again yet she's willing to "sacrifice" (for lack of a better word) that in order to keep me happy and keep this marriage in tact???
Did I get that right??

I'm not even sure if I want the sex with her. I know that I wanna get laid but now, I'm not sure if she's the one. The past 6 months have been crazy. My mind has been all over the place. 
As I've mentioned before, I'm so over all this back and forth. I wont jump through another hoop. This needs to stop.
I cant tell when she's genuine about our sex life and when it's just a front she's portraying to get me onto "her side" again.

PS: I wasnt prepared for the table scene. In my mind, I imagined that she'd just go sit and eat after I lead her to the kitchen. I was caught off guard when she asked me to join her. I'll admit that.
It seems, in her own way, going back on the pill and saying that she "wants us to be happy again" is her way of saying she's still vested in the marriage? Not too sure how vested she is in me though. 
Is this just another carrot on a stick and am I simply the ass whose gna fall for it again???

Well... thats why I posted my reply. I really dont know how to respond to the text. I dont know what to say in this time leading up to that day. I know that there are things we MUST cover before getting back to having any kind of sex again.

PPS: I really love this site!!!


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi Wannabe,

You know your wife tried to express to you that she was interested and loves you and is willing to try and make things better, yet you won't go their?! You do those lovely things yet when she tries to express her appreciation and willingness to go down the road of sex you find every reason not to go their yourself.

You do know that by doing that she gets the message that you led her on a little to deliver your own rejection of her, I can't see how that will make her keener to make sexual intimacy better between you both. 



Anon Pink said:


> I thought her response was rather telling... She obviously feels the disconnect and doesn't like it.
> 
> This was her very subtle was of saying she wants to resume your sex life. You pushed for accountability and she shut down.
> 
> ...


Anon Pink, gets it, it really is obvious. First you swoon her and she consequently expressed her desire to be sexually intimate with you (after such strains I suspect it isn't easy for her to just start up again, she fears rejection just as much as you do!). Then when she wants it, you do to her what she has done to you. Congratulations you beat her you won! Do you feel better for it? You still don't "get any" yet she gets to feel rejected just like you do as well, which is probably not the best way to make things better.

I recommend you tell her, you read her signals wrong and that you're prepared to take this journey one step at a time with her not against her but together with her and you know she would have felt real special if just for that moment during breakfast your focus was solely on her and not your children and you did join her. the kids could survive for a moment plus they would benefit from seeing and experiencing parents who are in love as opposed to distant and resentful ones.

She loves you and responded well to you trying to improve things yet you shot it down so it will be a harder to fix now. You are both responsible for this she plays a massive roll in this yet so do you. Clearly she expressed her desire to make things work so you have that so tell who you goofed and read her wrong and that you were excited that she was saying what she was saying yet got scared it might end up like before so said the wrong things.

If you don't have the energy to work at this or want to punish her for not being a "loving wife" and giving you sex often and the way you would like, you should seriously think about ending your marriage. Because living in misery and scoring points against her doesn't help you, her or your kids.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Personal said:


> Hi Wannabe,
> 
> You know your wife tried to express to you that she was interested and loves you and is willing to try and make things better, yet you won't go their?! You do those lovely things yet when she tries to express her appreciation and willingness to go down the road of sex you find every reason not to go their yourself.
> 
> ...


Noted.


----------



## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Hey FB
> Your 2nd response made me lol. Really. You're a funny guy.
> 
> PS: No... she does not fly solo. I've asked her a couple times over the years why not and she said she just doesnt.
> ...


Actually, I'm a woman 

As to the bolded part, you really need to discuss this with her. One problem: she won't talk to you. No communication=no emotional intimacy or connection. She is thwarting your efforts. Is she a taker and not a giver? How does she 'give' emotionally to you? You say she won't talk and stares at a wall or into space when you attempt to talk with her. Hugs? Touches? I love yous?

If you're getting to the point where you're not sure you want to have sex with her - you're starting to withdraw emotionally from her to protect yourself from further hurt. Maybe some individual counselling for you if she won't go.

If you want to see how vested she is in you and the marriage, sit back and watch her actions. A couple of positive actions already: 1. she has initiated a hug and 2. she texted you that she was starting the pill. (I take to mean = green light for sex.) I would make sure the sex isn't just on her terms though: eg 'just put the head in and no more etc'., maybe a chat about this? Is she a controlling type? Just wondering because she has a lot to say about exactly how the sex act goes down without regard to your wants/needs/feelings. One thing that goes without saying, careful about getting her pregnant.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What's a fizz bomb?

Taking the pill is major statement. Women mull over that at length. You might ask her how long she thought about it before making the decision. Also, ask her how it makes her feel physically?

How does it affect her mood? Listening to her answers may help you to understand her sex drive better.

GettingIt, DTO, Deejo and all the others have made real contributions to the thread. You can read everything again. If you are able to be happier, you will be more attractive to your wife. Maybe you also need to consider detaching from her with the ultimate aim of leaving your marriage.

It may take the prospect of you leaving to wake her.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Let me start off by saying thank you to each and every one who has contributed to this thread. I've received some excellent advice. I am trying to work on each tidbit of advice as best as I can. Mostly its two steps forward and then one step back but we're getting there I guess. I hope. 
LW, I'm a step ahead of you. I've been reading this thread over since Monday already. Been through it twice already. 
I've decided to bury the resentment one brick at a time. It's tough to simply just forget about all the years of BS but I'm doing it without coming across as a total nag or needy. As I'm typing here, I'm doing my own thing too. We've all just had dinner and the kids are watching movies while the wife lays with them. I took the kids to the park earlier today then ice cream. Wife made a great dinner so I did the dishes. I'm going out for a few beers with the guys as soon as I've finished replying here. 
I haven't brought up sex or the pill all week. I just remind her every day. Her demenour seems softer than usual and it seems that when I take sex and my resentment out of the equation, we get along quite well. We even laughed over something today. Not the pretend laugh we've been doing for the longest time but actually laughing so hard that your stomach hurts. I think we both felt kinda awkward after the laugh coz it's been missing for so long. 
This morning, I through caution to the wind and kissed my wife for the first time in months. She responded quite well to it. After a couple of minutes I had to stop myself or else I would not have been able to stop myself. She seemed shocked that I didn't push further like usual. I could feel myself physically having to stop myself from showing resentment. I put on a happy face afterward and made us some coffee while casually going on talking about an incident that happened at work this week. She bought it and I've pulled it off it seems. I'm breaking down this wall of resentment one brick at a time. She must have felt something too since she gave me another hug and a soft kiss when I brought the coffee to her. 
Yes, I am petrified that this could all just be yet another smoke screen but I've decided to give her the benefit of the doubt. 
I'm working on not being needy also so I'm heading out for beers with the guys soon. 

Oh , almost forgot. Last night at work, a married coworker who works in another department, decided to basically tell me in an email that she's in love with me. I know!!! WHAT THE FCUK!?!?!?!? The email came through just as I was about to leave the office so I didn't reply to it. It made walking out to my car with her very awkward for her, I can imagine, coz I didn't make any reference to the email while we walked. It was hard for me to try to act like I usually would with her. I think she bought it. I haven't told my wife about this email yet. Not sure if I should. Letting sleeping dogs lie and all that. 
Anyway, beers with the guys are calling. Enjoy the weekend TAMers and be safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

WyshIknew said:


> When we were going through our bad patch I sent a Valentines day card that said something like "Happy Valentines day, what a f*****g joke."
> 
> Not a moment I was proud of but strangely it seemed from that day on we started to improve.


HAHAHAHAH.
I just had a real "laugh out loud" moment here.
That was just great.

I'll tell you, I've felt that way before. Never had the cajones to go through with it. Perhaps that's the problem.
The only thing that comes close to that is a boring card that isn't signed at all.

Thanks for sharing!



LongWalk said:


> What's a fizz bomb?
> 
> Taking the pill is major statement. Women mull over that at length. You might ask her how long she thought about it before making the decision. Also, ask her how it makes her feel physically?


I don't know... taking the pill is not the same as having sex. It seems like an EASY thing to do to feign an interest in following through with sex. If only these were menthol antacids, then it would also cure her sore throats and upset stomachs too.

Remember, we're talking about a person who has draggggggggged this out for years. A real pro. I don't blame the OP for being suspicious.



wannabe said:


> Last night at work, a married coworker who works in another department, decided to basically tell me in an email that she's in love with me. I know!!! WHAT THE FCUK!?!?!?!?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, good for you!
You'll get more of that if you continue working on yourself.
Here's your chance, though, to email her back, thank her, tell her that a beautiful women just made her day. But that you believe all marriages should be worked on or put to bed first, before looking to the outside. I'd even mention that you are struggling through your own issues. It -would- be great to swap stories, but that would be considered an 'emotional affair'. 

So I just read the entire thread. I have to ask. Have you read Dr. Glover's NMMNG book, or Athol Kay's MMSL? Because I believe the first author followed you around when he wrote the book! 

You are already getting good results by letting go of resentment and not pushing for sex. She sees that and is responding well. However, is it because she finally can get back to her happy status quo? Or is it really rebuilding a happy marriage?

I think you should absolutely start a sex moratorium, and then start working on yourself. You are already tempting with the idea of letting her go completely. Go all the way by following the book's examples. You WILL become a better man because of it, and she'll either respond or not. (And if not, you'll be mentally ready for that conclusion to move on)


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Going the EA route is a no go. Any form of an affair is a deal breaker for me so there's no way I'm entering into something like that. I'll have to figure out how or even if I'll be telling the wife about the email. I also need to figure out how I'm gna respond to her email without making this other woman feel like crap.
Wife is notably pissed at me this morning. Probably for going out last night. I'm not going to be entertaining any arguments. Slept in late today so I didn't go running this morning. Gna be getting ready now to take my run now while the weather is still cool enough for running. 
I keep on meaning to check out those books. I'll download a copy of each over the weekend and get started on them as soon as my exams are over. 

Well... off to take that run now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

On and off for all of last week we've been getting along much better. I'm trying. She's trying. A little at least. I was well on my way to starting to accept the fact that we're getting there slowly. Then she starts the most stupidest of arguments over the weekend just coz my mom invited us to dinner. That argument turns into "I'm always siding with my family over her. It's always gna be you all against me". I was like WTF. Where did that come from. Tried telling her that she's overreacting. She told me to go marry my family. I told her she's being argumentative and childish. She told me to go fcuk myself. I replied with "I've been doing that for half a year already". 
Well, needless to say, we haven't spoken all weekend. I refuse to apologies for things I never said or did. That's what she's got me to do in the past. I'd do it gladly just to keep the peace and get talking again. This time round, I'm holding my ground. Maybe we're both being childish now, but I won't grovel any longer in the hopes of getting some later as reward. She was wrong and needs to come to terms with that and apologies for being a total b!tch over the weekend. 

Today's Monday and we're still not talking. Don't know if she's taking the pill still. Don't really care. I've gone without sex for more than 6 months now. I think I'm over this whole sex thing. I just realized today that I haven't really thought about sex with her in a long time. It's not ruling my mind and thoughts any more. I still feel horny at times but I don't act on it. I don't start resenting her as soon as I feel horny.I've been practicing some breathing techniques to help calm me down. Seems to be working when I give it a chance. 
She's out with some friends tonight so it's just been me and the kids. I gave them dinner; we did the dishes together; bathed them; read them a book and they're sleeping now. Called up a buddy and asked him to bring me a 6 pack or 2. He said he'd join me. Cool. Waiting on him to come over now. Maybe we'd get the Play station out. She's gna be surprised to see me smiling when she gets back as opposed to angry like I usually am. I'm slowly becoming independent from her. My happiness doesn't depend on whether or not she's happy any more. Guy time helps. I won't be pushing the sex thing either. I'm good either way. 
Lucky for me, this girl at work who confessed that she wants me, wasn't at work today. I didn't give much though to how I'm gna handle that yet. Probably gna tell her that I'm flattered and while she's a gorgeous woman (she really really is) we're both married and shouldn't go there at all. If she feels she can't accept that then we'd have to break off our friendship. I hope she's cool with that and that I don't come across as being a jerk about it. She's due back at work tomorrow and we've been partnered on a new project together starting tomorrow. We're both subject matter experts on the finer details of the project so there's no way to get out of it. I'm the only person at my company who does the work I do and she is one of 2 people who does what she does. The other person who does what she does works at our other branch on the other side of the country.
She's extremely level headed so I'm sure she'd agree that it was a moment of weakness from her side. Let's wait and see. 
Guy/Beer time now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Right on time. I should've known. Actually... I knew from the start. 
Today, she forgot to take the pill after taking it for almost 2 weeks with me reminding her every day. Seeing that I was in meetings all day, I wasn't able to remind her to take it. Now, she refuses to take it after I asked her if she's taken it already today. She's rather gna go back to the pharmacy tomorrow to hear what the pharmacist has to say. 
So, sex in this marriage is entirely my responsibility. If I don't remind her to take them then she'll not take them. If I don't initiate sex, she won't either. 
I already know what's going to happen tomorrow. She'll go see the pharmacist and tell him she skipped a day. Then she'll tell him to put her on an injection contraceptive. That means another 2 weeks of no attempt at sex. After the 2 weeks she'll say the injection takes her drive away. She'll again ask me to please be patient and promise that things are going to be better this time around. We'll probably have sex around July month if my calculations are correct. 
I can't believe I fell for the fcuking carrot on the stick yet again. 
She's totally not even phased that she skipped. Well.. she's around 5 hours late with taking the pill and won't take it now coz it's 5 hours later. I don't get her logic. I feel cheated. Seems like she sabotaged this whole situation yet again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

If she only skipped a day she can take it and still be protected. She should know this as it's part of the education the doc gives and it's also on the information sheet that comes with the packet.

Your wife sounds like a classic passive aggressive person.

Marriage counseling. Pronto!


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This is not surprising. At all. So at what point do you put your foot down and tell her you can't do this anymore? That having a marriage is conditional on having a sex life? Or are you still trying to 'nice' your way into her panties?


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

@ Anon: 100%. I've said what you've said. I call it sabotage. 
@ WOM: I hear you buddy. I hear you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If you do tell the woman from work no, don't compliment her. Sends mixed messages that you say you find her hot but don't want her. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> If you do tell the woman from work no, don't compliment her. Sends mixed messages that you say you find her hot but don't want her.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Noted
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I couldn't really reply earlier since wife was around. She's sleeping now. No surprise there. Went out to the pharmacy to get some meds for the kids. Got back 10 minutes later and they're all sleeping. 
So after giving today's event a while to simmer in my mind, I decided to not just let it slide. I calmly asked her what difference does takingthe pill 5 hhours later than usual really make? All she replied with was, it makes a difference. I then told her to just take it anyway. Seeing that she's seeing the doc tomorrow it would go down easier telling him she took them 5 hours later than usual instead of not taking them at all. I said that not taking it at all is almost certain to guarantee that he is gna start her off on a fresh batch. (Which means another 2 week wait for us - I didn't say that though).
She protested a little saying that it needs to be taken at the same time daily. I protested and said surely not by the exact minute. I said 5 hours late now. Tomorrow it would be 24 hours late. She got pissed and took the pill anyway. She's still pissed at me for, as I'm sure it will come out as, I forced her to take the pill. 
This was one of the main reasons I didn't want to be "The Pill Reminder". It's gna seem like me forcing her to take the pill daily whenever I remind her to take it like she wants me to do. 
I'm not surprised that she "forgot" to take the pill today as Saturday would have been the official "Safe Day". It seems, to me, like she's creating situations that will ensure we don't have sex. Even if the conditions are perfect, she'd still come up with some lame excuse. The situations started last weekend when she was *****ing coz my mom invited us all to dinner then refused all week to apologise for the things she said to me. When that didn't pan out as planned, she "forgets" to take her pill. I get the picture completely but I guess I'm not ready to admit it to myself yet. Or maybe I already have but I'm avoiding the inevitable by hiding my head in the sand????
Patiently waiting to hear the latest tomorrow. 

WRT the other woman, she came back to work today and when I saw her to brief her on the project, I simply kept things work related at first. Later, while on lunch, she asked me if I'd given any thought to the email she sent. I told her that we're both married and shouldn't even be talking about this. She was, apparently, so scared to come to work on Monday coz of the email she sent that she faked an illness. I lied and said I'm happily married. She apologized for the email; said she feels silly now but thanked me for my honestly and for being a gentleman. Anyway, we're never bringing it up again. 
I do hope that's the end of that. I never ever want to be "the other guy" or the cause of someone else's unhappiness. 

Huge thank you to all for listening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

Good handling of the work situation. Because you may be vulnerable, I would caution you to keep your boundaries sky high and not engage in any talk whatsoever of your, or the potential cheater's marriages. Also, if she starts to talk about her cheating proposal again don't be hesitant about hurting her feelings to shut the convo down completely.

Regarding your wife - ouch! 'Forgot' to take the pill so you two could resume your sex life, huh? As I said up thread, pay attention to actions not words. 6months with no sex??? And this is what she comes up with? She's using some serious delaying tactics. When she texted you to tell you she was starting the pill I really thought things might be turning around for you, Wannabe. It's like she's stringing you along. I would be beyond frustrated.

Have you told your wife yet of the invitation to cheat and the woman's follow up to see if you were in? If not, why not?


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Hey FB: This other woman hasn't brought it up again. We're working quite closely together on this project and will be for the next few months. Hope it doesn't get awkward. 

I told the wife that I'm onto her and her delay tactics. She got royally p!ssed at me for even mentioning this. She just shut down and refused to speak with me for the rest of the evening. Anyway, she's still taking the pill now but I'm not reminding her. Told her she needs to accept responsibility for her part in us ever having sex again. I don't ask her if she's taking them though. I'll just check the contents of the pack every day to see if she's taken it. If she hasn't THEN I'll casually ask her if she's taken it. 
I haven't told her about the other woman's advances yet. Don't know how she'd react. Probably find some way of blaming it on me again. She's gna want to know who it is and seeing that it's nipped in the bud I don't want the wife to cause trouble for this woman by maybe informing the husband. We all have lapses of judgment and I'll resign myself to this being the other woman's laps. I'll give her a free pass. 

Aaaaah... the life of the sexless and married can sure be an interesting one. No 2 days are ever the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

You really can't make this sh!t up. The latest excuse, without me even prompting or initiating sex for the longest of times, she texts me today as I'm leaving work to tell me she needs to get to a pharmacy as she's got a vaginal infection. I simply replied with an "ok".
I'm done. Thinking of packing some clothes and hitting the road for a week or so. I can't deal with being strung along anymore. Worried about the kids though should I decide to "separate" for a while. I'm tired of this BS already. 
What do the ladies here have to say about vaginal infections in a non sexually active woman? Someone who's been sexless for around 7 months???
Am I overreacting or have I been played again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ask for the results. I'd be highly suspicious that she's cheating.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Beginning to suspect that maybe she is cheating. I know, it's taken me some time but I think she may just be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

wannabe said:


> Beginning to suspect that maybe she is cheating. I know, it's taken me some time but I think she may just be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you separate (I.e. Move out), it will be more difficult to get proof. Don't make accusations until you have enough proof for yourself or the courts, if it's applicable in your area. And consider starting a thread in the infidelity forum with your suspicions. 

C 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Ladies, what's your take on this sudden infection? It may just be another excuse. It may be an actual infection. From where then? 
PS: She won't do counseling or therapy. 
PPS: Suggested seeing an OBG YN many times before but she never gets around to actually setting up the appointment. Actually, she had an appointment a few years ago but didn't go. Blamed me for not reminding her about HER appointment. :-/

Aaaaaah... The life of the sexless and married sure can be an interesting and confusing one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> If you separate (I.e. Move out), it will be more difficult to get proof. Don't make accusations until you have enough proof for yourself or the courts, if it's applicable in your area. And consider starting a thread in the infidelity forum with your suspicions.
> 
> C
> 
> ...


 I've been doing some snooping and everything checks out "phone" side of things. She's not even protective over her phone. It'll lie around the house all the time. She asks me to read and reply to her text messages she receives when she's not able to answer the phone. All her minutes in her day are accounted for too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I've said it before but honestly I really just don't get you. I mean, you complain....you say you've tried everything. But all I can see is that you talk about it, but don't back it up with any action at all. Has your wife ever experienced even a little bit of consequence, aside from having to listen to you complain?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is so true, so true. Men forget this, after kids sex seems like another task to complete. Even when having an orgasm, it is a drain on our already depleted energy. When having sex, you need to be physically and mentally present, you can't just zone out. So, the wife who would rather play on the computer instead of having sex just wants to zone out in front of the computer. Because the computer won't mind, it won't complain about it being "boring".


I am curious. How is a man who finds themselves in a sexless marriage supposed to use this to help them become sexually connected with their wives?



> Evidently, men place their whole emotional being into their sex life, so it is that important for them. Men can't see where it takes so much effort. You just gotta trust us when we say that it does.


I am a woman. And I sure as shooting don't even trust you that it does. Just cannot agree with this post. On the one hand, if Mamma is that done in, she needs to put her big girl panties and set limits with her kids that allow her her time and space. Past baby age, being a mother just is not that all encompassing unless you allow it to be. On the other hand, a man reading this will wind up even more isolated in the belief that he NEEDS to not expect a sex life within his marriage.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

wannabe said:


> I've been doing some snooping and everything checks out "phone" side of things. She's not even protective over her phone. It'll lie around the house all the time. She asks me to read and reply to her text messages she receives when she's not able to answer the phone. All her minutes in her day are accounted for too...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what's your new found suspicion based on?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wannabe said:


> You really can't make this sh!t up. The latest excuse, without me even prompting or initiating sex for the longest of times, she texts me today as I'm leaving work to tell me she needs to get to a pharmacy as she's got a vaginal infection. I simply replied with an "ok".
> I'm done. Thinking of packing some clothes and hitting the road for a week or so. I can't deal with being strung along anymore. Worried about the kids though should I decide to "separate" for a while. I'm tired of this BS already.
> What do the ladies here have to say about vaginal infections in a non sexually active woman? Someone who's been sexless for around 7 months???
> Am I overreacting or have I been played again?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I have no comment on played or not played. But yes, infections can happen without sexual activity.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've said it before but honestly I really just don't get you. I mean, you complain....you say you've tried everything. But all I can see is that you talk about it, but don't back it up with any action at all. Has your wife ever experienced even a little bit of consequence, aside from having to listen to you complain?


I'll be the first to admit that I've given her way too many passes in the past. I'm trying to get out of the old habits. Busy reading NMMNG ATM and so far it's been an eye opener. 
Thanks for your response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have no comment on played or not played. But yes, infections can happen without sexual activity.


Thank you for your response. 
You're a woman so I'll ask you, how common is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> So what's your new found suspicion based on?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Basically just the constant avoiding of sex. And now the infection from nowhere. 
I honestly have no reason other than this to suspect anything. Maybe I'm looking to blame something other than myself? Maybe I am doing something wrong? Am I?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Vaginal yeast infections fact sheet | womenshealth.gov



> Why did I get a yeast infection?
> 
> * Taking certain medicines, including birth control pills, antibiotics, and steroids


From my (male) perspective, yeast infections can happen without sex. Caused by general immune deficiency. For us, it's usually payback for not being vigilant in our playing around with anal.

It certainly wouldn't increase my suspicions of cheating.
(The lack of sex would be my main suspicion, if any).
Curious, did she maybe not clean up her sex toys thoroughly? She punishes you with no sex, but still gets off by herself secretly?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Thank you for your response.
> You're a woman so I'll ask you, how common is that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no idea since all women's bodies are different. For me, it happens all the time as the years go on. But I don't see why it matters. It is either another stupid excuse or something that can be cleared up in a few days time. What it ISN'T is any reason, by itself, to suspect an affair.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> What it ISN'T is any reason, by itself, to suspect an affair.


Unless the infection happens to be vaginosis or chlamydia or gonorrhea or another of a whole host of sexually transmitted infections. Sure, if it's just a yeast infection it doesn't mean much by itself. Or if it's e Coli she could be wiping the wrong way (TMI). That's why I told him he should insist on seeing the results. Find out what infection she has so you can figure out what's going on.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

wannabe said:


> What do the ladies here have to say about vaginal infections in a non sexually active woman? Someone who's been sexless for around 7 months???
> Am I overreacting or have I been played again?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she takes a lot of baths w/scented bubbles it could happen. if she wears tight clothes and underwear it could happen. 

Pretty much anything that throws off the natural chemistry can cause an infection. 

But in your situation you need to look at the results to be sure it isn't something crazy.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

JerryB said:


> Vaginal yeast infections fact sheet | womenshealth.gov
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope. No sex toys. She does not masturbate either. 
Thanks for the reply
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I don't really understand wannabe.

Didn't she start taking the pill a couple of weeks ago? 

And if you just want to be extra cautious you can use a condom. 

And what about this?
"This morning, I through caution to the wind and kissed my wife for the first time in months."

Why withhold affection until she goes through her warm up process weeks after she starts the pill?


Have you considered that she may be very turned off by your ambivalence and lack of leadership? 

Seems like she may experience some pain when it has not been in use but maybe also just some "fear" of doing it. 

I have to wonder if she is having a fairly serious mental block toward having sex with you for reasons she either does not understand or is embarrassed to say. 

I do not think it is actually the case for most women but some very clearly do need a man to act a certain way and maybe you are not fulfilling that need. 

Obviously her drive is also pretty low and she is generally inhibited about sex.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Yes she did start taking the pill almost 3 weeks ago.
She refuses to use condoms. Doesn't like the feel. She's not a lube fan either. 
When she started with the pill she asked me to give her "space" while we wait on the pill to take effect. Tried some light kissing about a week after she started taking it and she pulled back reminding me about the space she requested during this time. Space = no intimacy. Leave me alone for the next few weeks while I mentally prepare myself for sex. Basically. 
I've been through all phases that I can possibly think of that might make her come around. Nothing seems to do the trick. Something always pops up when we're due to have sex. Whether it be the heat; the cold; stomach cramps for days on end; headaches; infection; flu; too late; too early; kids are sleeping; work admin; her feet are cold; her feet are warm; my feet are cold; my feet are warm; her teeth are getting cold; she's due for her injection the next day/on her last pill in the pack; etc. 
I could go on forever with the lame excuses. 

I'm seriously out of ideas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Go to the gym to burn off your frustration while building muscle. Start the 180 to get ready leave her. If she is not attracted to you as you begin to checkout what is the point?

Your choice at some point becomes: sexless marriage and unhappy life or a new marriage with a sexually compatible woman.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wannabe said:


> I'm seriously out of ideas.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tell her that being sexless is a deal breaker and that you want to separate for a while. Tell her that you want a divorce if she can't bring herself to be a wife, and that you're separating to lead up to divorce.

Right now she thinks that she can do whatever she wants and you'll never leave her. You have reinforced this in many ways, which of course makes you largely responsible for how she treats you, since you allow it.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I know that it seems like I'm always complaining but the excuses really never lets up. No matter how I act or what I do. Trying to make do with what I have and it's not been going well so far. I love my wife dearly but feel I've run out of ideas. Slowly making my way through MMMNG. As mentioned before, it's a game changer so far. I can see already that at times I've been the needy guy and at times I've been the hard a$$ too. Other times I take all control of everything. Kind of "leader up". I find that she manipulates every situation to suit her need for avoiding intimacy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Yes she did start taking the pill almost 3 weeks ago.
> She refuses to use condoms. Doesn't like the feel. She's not a lube fan either.


I think it only takes a week and a half or so before the pill becomes effective. And there seems to be a lengthy cold engine starting procedure which does not involve PiV and can be started before then. 

She seems to be manipulating you because she can.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Go to the gym to burn off your frustration while building muscle. Start the 180 to get ready leave her. If she is not attracted to you as you begin to checkout what is the point?
> 
> Your choice at some point becomes: sexless marriage and unhappy life or a new marriage with a sexually compatible woman.


I'm at the gym at least 3 times a week. I run every day too. I'm in pretty good shape. 
I know the choices but I'm avoiding the inevitable it seems hoping she'll come around the next day. I know. Lame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Tell her that being sexless is a deal breaker and that you want to separate for a while. Tell her that you want a divorce if she can't bring herself to be a wife, and that you're separating to lead up to divorce.
> 
> Right now she thinks that she can do whatever she wants and you'll never leave her. You have reinforced this in many ways, which of course makes you largely responsible for how she treats you, since you allow it.


Guilty as charged on all counts your honor.
Sound advice. I need to follow through. Thanx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I think it only takes a week and a half or so before the pill becomes effective. And there seems to be a lengthy cold engine starting procedure which does not involve PiV and can be started before then.
> 
> She seems to be manipulating you because she can.


Correct on all counts sir. I tried following through with the advice given here. Tried doing the Valentines thing without expecting sex. Tried warming up to her with no expectations and got shut down. 
She's a master manipulator. I need to man up and follow through. 
I appreciate all the advice and suggestions given here. You guys have a wealth of information to offer the world. I salute you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

So what exactly have you done since you started this thread to assert your right to have a marriage which includes sex?

Even if only 5% of women respond favorably to a more assertive male what have you done to investigate that possibility? At this point after years of this type of behavior don't you think it is time to try something new?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Tell her that being sexless is a deal breaker and that you want to separate for a while. Tell her that you want a divorce if she can't bring herself to be a wife, and that you're separating to lead up to divorce.
> 
> Right now she thinks that she can do whatever she wants and you'll never leave her. You have reinforced this in many ways, which of course makes you largely responsible for how she treats you, since you allow it.


I hope that underneath your seeming harshness, WOM, you actually have a kind and loving heart.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jld said:


> I hope that underneath your seeming harshness, WOM, you actually have a kind and loving heart.


Oh brother. Look, I have Wanabe's best interest at heart. I think he knows that. He doesn't need coddling or another person reinforcing his righteous indignation (although I do agree he's in the right, but my agreeing doesn't help or fix ANYTHING). He needs a new perspective. He needs to change his behavior....to take action.....to take control so that he can fix his problem. He has a mental block, so he hasn't been able to do that. I think he has it within himself to take the steps necessary to fix his situation, so I push him. I've been in his corner the entire time. I've lived his life....clinically sexless for over 10 years. And in spite of my own complaining and searching for my own happiness, I'm at the point where I get it 2x a week. So I feel like I know a little something about how to change the dynamic because I've actually done it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, you do have a kind and loving heart then, and I am sorry you have had such a hard time. Experience is certainly the best teacher in life.

It is just that sometimes you seem very strict, and unless that is offset by great kindness and tenderness, it may come across as overbearing. Jmo, feel free to ignore.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> So what exactly have you done since you started this thread to assert your right to have a marriage which includes sex?
> 
> Even if only 5% of women respond favorably to a more assertive male what have you done to investigate that possibility? At this point after years of this type of behavior don't you think it is time to try something new?


To be completely honest, I don't think that, since starting this thread, that I haven't done anything that I haven't tried in the past. I've mentioned on top that I've done the "not needy" thing. I've manned up around the house as far as day to day decisions goes. Took charge of getting the house remodeled; I've started getting out more without her and the kids; been spending some quality time with the kids alone; sat her down a month or so ago and told her that I'm not living in a sexless marriage any more - she was shocked when I said this and wanted to know if I really thought our marriage was sexless and if I'd honestly leave coz of it. I told her that it is and that I will. So, things always takes a few days to simmer with her. Then after that statement simmered long enough, just over a week, she sent the text saying she's starting the pill the next day. I though I'd gotten through to her. Obviously not. 
I know that it's time for something new. It's been time for a long time now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

@jld: All your comments to this thread is highly noted. While I agree that WOM comes across as harsh at times, I appreciate his honesty by not candy coating his replies. It's refreshing. Call a spade a spade and stop the ***** footing around. This is his MO and it's great. 

I find that NMMNG hits the nail on the head almost every time. I see myself in those pages all the time. Need to find the time to finish that book ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"sat her down a month or so ago and told her that I'm not living in a sexless marriage any more - she was shocked when I said this" 

This is the thing, 
This has been going on this long and she is just finding out about it.

Then you made a good start but you have not followed through. 

She ask you to remind her every day -you program her phone so you do not appear pushy. 
She goes out and gets on the pill and you wait around until she gives you the green light. 

If you ran a business this way you would be poor. 

Are you sure this is what she wants? 
Have you had the "am I assertive enough for you" conversation?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you truly love your wife, you will save her from herself and she will be grateful. First, stop discussion about sex. Stop initiating. Do the 180. Once she notices, then you tell her you want to divorce, but be very calm about it. Do not negotiate. Just tell her that she beautiful and another man will make her happy. If she doesn't pursue you, then it is hopeless. If she is very pushy, shrug your shoulders and ask her if an open marriage would be ok. 

If she loves you and you are self confident, she will discover her libido. If she is having pleasure, her mood will be better. If she does not, then she opted out of your marriage.

I'll add a couple of more thoughts. Of all the TAM topics (infidelity, BPD, addiction, etc.), sexless marriage is the lightest. There is every reason to be believe that whatever makes single organisms, reptiles, birds and bees exchange DNA, it is built into us. Ending the active sex life perhaps makes evolutionary sense if you have a couple of children and it is over from her liminal point of view. From your liminal point of view you want to fertilize eggs as often as you can.

By the same token, your marriage protects your DNA. Once your marriage is threatened, her liminal mind will calculate what is best and she will act. If her genes are faulty or she has issues from upbringing, then you need to escape her as a mate. For she ain't mating.

If you remarry, you will find peace. You will be a better father. You may even be friends with your wife. Right now she is neither your friend nor lover; she is just tormenting you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> "sat her down a month or so ago and told her that I'm not living in a sexless marriage any more - she was shocked when I said this"
> 
> This is the thing,
> This has been going on this long and she is just finding out about it.
> ...


That's the thing. She carries on like it's no big deal. Like I'm over reacting when I bring it up. Sometimes I feel like she's living in her own little bubble where she lets in only what she wants to. Selective hearing/seeing. 
We've had the "what do you expect of me" discussion already. And what she expects is me to be patient with her and not put any pressure on her. Basically, wants me on my best behavior (good husband; good father; and not attempt any intimacy while she gets mentally prepares herself for the next week or so for sex. )
That's what I'd do for a week or 2 and when I realise that she's forgotten about her latest new leaf she's turned over, I'll try some intimacy, which would be followed by her exploding that I'm not giving her the space. The whole thing would just spiral or loop from there on. 
She sees me being assertive with her as being pushy and invading her space (bubble).
I've approached the situation in more ways than I care to admit or remember.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

That's because it is no big deal to her. As long as you don't bug her for sex, all her needs are being met. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Thanks LW. 
Your reply made me feel sad about my life and marriage. 

I've told her about TAM already and asked her to read up on some of the stories here. She forgets every day. 
Oh, almost forgot, it was our 9th wedding anniversary yesterday and also our 14 year anniversary of knowing each other. It was not a happy day. Pretty much the same as any other day except we both spoke 2 extra words with each other. "Happy Anniversary". Lol
I did nothing special for her. She did nothing special for me. The gift that I did get her, I kept wrapped in the car until I could see if she did anything for me. She didn't. I'm returning the gift tomorrow and getting myself some golf clubs instead. Selfish/wrong/passive aggressive of me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm in agreement with WOM (!) and LongWalk here, OP. 

Nothing will change if you don't change. You say you've done the "man up" thing--basically that you're not clingy, that you've made yourself clear _verbally_, that you're in shape physically, socially, mentally etc. 

But she _still_ is not sexually attracted to you. Either she's got to come up with what that is (and real sexual attraction doesn't have a bunch of "rules" attached to it, or need a week to develop) or you've got to push things far enough to see if you can trigger it in her. The risk with that, of course, is that you find out that you _can't_ trigger it in her, and you get duty sex twice a week, or a divorce. 

Or you can decide to accept what you've got if those risks don't seem worth it. But don't just live in abject unhappiness letting your anger grow until it consumes you and changes you. Like I said before, don't trade your soul for hope.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Getting it... When you reply to my thread you seem to leave me feeling so so sad that I'm where in am atm. Your threads are a true inspiration. I think the only reason I ever signed up here was after reading every last thread of yours. 
Much love and I thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Getting it... When you reply to my thread you seem to leave me feeling so so sad that I'm where in am atm. Your threads are a true inspiration. I think the only reason I ever signed up here was after reading every last thread of yours.
> Much love and I thank you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, you are welcome . . . but I would hope that my story would be a cautionary tale more so than an inspiration. 

From what I gather from your posts, your wife lost her attraction for you and doesn't know how to get it back. But nor is she working on addressing that lack. 

Maybe she doesn't want to hurt your feelings, or maybe she really doesn't understand her lack of desire. But that still leaves you up sh!t creek without a paddle. 

Step it up! Either she finds her libido pronto (sorry, there's just no indication that THIS is going to happen) or you force the issue by serving up some real consequences.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

PBear said:


> That's because it is no big deal to her. As long as you don't bug her for sex, all her needs are being met.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And those needs he's meeting need to be cut off like right now.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Thanks LW.
> Your reply made me feel sad about my life and marriage.
> 
> I've told her about TAM already and asked her to read up on some of the stories here. She forgets every day.
> ...


I don't think you should be sad at all. There is no point. Repeat after me:

I am going to be happy. I going to give my wife, beause I love her, an opportunity to share this happiness. Knowing where I am heading fills me with calm. I know that I am going to make it because there is no choice, no other option. When my wife realizes that I have got my shxt together, she will be attracted to me. She is going to want to hump because people naturally want to join those who are going to have a good time.

If she is broken or incomplete inside, I will have to give her up as a wife. She will always be a co-parent. I can go on loving her as the mother of my children. I feel great about that, that I know i have the strength to forgive her and myself.

I know that I cannot start a car with a dead battery in freezing weather without a jump start. The 180 will crank life into this marriage if it is possible. If my wife refuses to press the gas peddle and turn the ignition key, she can sit in the car and wait for Tripple A. I will not sit in the dead car and hope for rescue, I will walk through the snow blizzard and find warmth.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Read a enough posts her and you discover that LD's are generally not good at saying why they are LD. 

Really I think you are at the point where you really need to stop waiting for her to fix this. 

"what do you expect of me?"

I know it seems logical that she should just be able to tell you what the deal is but you have been waiting how long?

It has not worked. It is not likely to start working in the future. 

What is a new plan?

"since starting this thread, that I haven't done anything that I haven't tried in the past."

Why keep in the same holding pattern?
What have you got to lose by trying something different?

How about:
Wow honey I think I found the problem, I was just reading about how many women need a more assertive partner to feel sexual. I think we should give that a try.

What do you think?
(just kidding -don't ask her what she thinks)

Where going to start tonight. 

Maybe GettingIt or Anon can help out here for some ideas on what to do exactly the first night but if she really needs some warm up time maybe something that does not involve PiV

But you control it.



What is the worst that can happen? 
She can say No. She can say I don't like you being pushy. All you want is sex. etc.. 

If she totally will not respond to this you can tell her it was worth a try and move on to plan B.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Read a enough posts her and you discover that LD's are generally not good at saying why they are LD.
> 
> Really I think you are at the point where you really need to stop waiting for her to fix this.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, interesting suggestion. Since my libido had gone underground due to years of unresolved resentments (fed by his "nice guy" behavior), I'm not sure how I would have reacted to such a turn around. Right time of the month--yeah, it would have worked. If he'd have caught me when I was PMS'ing, I might have ripped his d!ck off. 

Given that OP's wife isn't openly hostile, however, I sort of agree: what does he have to lose? OP, have you tried upping the aggression in your "initiating game." How easy is it for her to shoot you down? What happens if you don't let up at the first hint of protest? 

*If* you do go this route, tell her with some conviction that you've decided on a sea change in your approach to her. Look her in the eye and tell her that you can see she's struggling with trying to locate her desire, and that you've got a plan since she doesn't. Tell her you love and that you will take care of her. Then tell her that again. Then tell her the change starts right now, and that she is to take a shower, towel off and go lie down in bed and wait for you. 

I don't know what your usual sexual style is, but when you go to her in bed, don't let her touch you. Just touch her. Go slow and touch her a lot. Just run your hands all over her. Kiss her very deeply. Give her an orgasm with your fingers, or with a toy, or with your mouth. Leave your penis in your pants. Give her an orgasm, then pull the covers up and hold her. 

Yep, that's right, you don't get any. Not this time. Tell her one more time that you will take care of her. Now is the time to tell her that you've been doing some thinking, and you will be taking the lead in getting your sex life back on track. Tell her she's going to have to put her trust in you, because it's the only way you see the marriage surviving. 

OP this is a HUGE step, a HUGE commitment, so if you're not up for it, please don't do it. If you are confused about it, don't move forward with it. Think about it for a few days, do some more reading on what it means to be a dominant husband/partner. Figure out how (if) that is a dynamic that could possibly appeal to your wife. 

Upping your dominance might not even be something that appeals to you--and if it's not, this probably wont be sustainable. But if you suspect that her desire is contingent on it, and you are willing/want to do it, AND your marriage is in its final throes anyway . . . then, I agree with usmarriedguy that you don't really have much to lose.

ETA: One more thing--I'm not sure if Amplexor has weighed in on this thread, but I do think he decide on a similar "take charge" approach in his marriage with good results. He might have some insights to offer from his experience.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Great post, GI! I bet many men are taking notes! And will reap the rewards!


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Op I feel so sad for you 

My husband is LD - but not dismissive of my needs as your wife is with yours - so I understand the frustration. 

Your wife MUST know there's a problem here. She can't not unless she's a complete idiot. Even if she is tired/stressed/has kids/work/it's cold/hot/too windy/not windy enough/it's raining/it's not raining, lol...there are times in a marriage when you just have to suck it up (no pun intended  ) and have sex for the sake of your spouse, whether you feel like it or not.

She is breaking your marriage vows - sex is an implied part of the marital contract. She's being selfish and very unfair to you.

I'm not saying you're perfect, I'm sure there's things you could do differently too but you've tried everything, you've asked her directly she needs to tell you what the problem is ffs.

Sex is important in marriage. For a spouse to put the kabosh on it just because they have a LD is very wrong, selfish and unfair.

I think you need to ram home just how serious this is. Even go so far as to tell her very specifically that a marriage without sex is not working for you, it's a deal breaker and that you're moving out to give her some space to decide what she wants to do. Make it clear that you won't wait forever and that the threat of divorce is hanging over your heads. If it at least scares her enough into taking some action, that's a start.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sometimes divorce is a kindness. Neither party needs to be blamed; things just did not work out to a win/win. Each person is free to find someone with whom he/she will be happier.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Did it. Had another argument over the weekend and before I knew it, I had uttered the words that if something doesn't change by end of March, then I'm divorcing. As soon as it came out I had to push through. There's at least got to be an attempt at getting to the bottom of things from her side.
Yesterday she never spoke with me at all but this morning I was greeted with a good morning kiss and got a text today saying she's going to make an effort. I just replied with a thank you. Now to see what the month holds for us. 

I'll admit that once the words were uttered and I realized that I actually said it, I felt a weight being lifted off my shoulders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Action always feels much better than inaction. Making progress.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1812,
I have yet to meet the woman who desires a male partner who lives in fear of her. 

What risk? You're already sexless. Now you're hoping that you can tippy toe around without upsetting your W. 

You aren't willing to do stuff that you absolutely have the right to do because she might get mad at you. 





1812overture said:


> For me, out with friends means some sort of negotiation about caring for the kids, perhaps even she'll go out with her friends, but it sure isn't easy. It's a negotiation. I don't make enough money, so I should tell me boss x, y, z. When I ask the kids questions during dinner, she answers for them -- because Lord knows, it is the information that is important, not the exchange and the relationship. I can do things on my own -- so long as they don't take me away from the other commitments.
> 
> What you hint at, GettingIt, seems somewhat inline with MMSL -- develop your own life, and your wife will be eager to be a part of it. There's logic to it, but I know I'm dealing with a whole lot of risk -- "you spend all day with your soccer buddies, so I have to chauffeur the kids everywhere, and *now* you want to have sex. Fat chance."


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

W,
Well that was a big step. 

Why don't you make an appointment with a MC? I mean it. She said she would TRY. Trying means she will:
- attend counseling weekly
- actively engage in the sessions and will honestly say what she wants and how she feels
- follow through with the homework (you can/should lead that process but she needs to cooperate)

In the meantime it's important that she sees you as happy and energetic. Not anxious and fearful that this is going to bust. Confident that it will work out one way or the other for you because you have your act together. 

That said: Do not accept anything less than real intimacy. For example, anything that smacks of blatant pity sex, or unengaged sex. Hard as this is, if she is just lying there letting you do all the work, stop. You want to show strength, turn down false intimacy. 

Don't initiate PIV unless your W is clearly turned on and wants to be doing this. If she's just tolerating your touch, just stop and get out of bed. Smile, shrug and say: Well I sincerely hope that wasn't as painful for you as it was for me. (This is an honest statement). 
Maybe when we fix what's broken 'out there' (point to the bedroom door), we can fix what's broken in here. 

Don't yell. Don't whine. Just head to the bathroom and take care of yourself in private. 

FYI: That will demonstrate to her that sex is something you do WITH her, not TO her. 

In the meantime let her initiate affection. Respond positively when she does and DONT grope her. Let affection be about feeling close without a sexual overtone. 

-----
If she isn't doing her fair share of house/kid work, you need to take the lead by making up a list of who does what. Sit her down and take her through it in a friendly but firm manner. Don't say:
I refuse to continue to do more than my fair share.
Do say:
Here's how I suggest splitting up the workload, if you want to swap some stuff that's fine. 

When you finish reviewing it you might close with this: This is an easy way for you to begin to demonstrate your commitment to the marriage. (It's a true statement and a friendly warning). 

Then put it on the fridge with the date and hold her accountable. 

She's going to test you. She'll complain about being stressed and/or tired. Stick with this theme: 
I know this is hard. It's hard because overall you're not real happy with the overall situation. If we fix that, then this stuff will become easy. 



wannabe said:


> Did it. Had another argument over the weekend and before I knew it, I had uttered the words that if something doesn't change by end of March, then I'm divorcing. As soon as it came out I had to push through. There's at least got to be an attempt at getting to the bottom of things from her side.
> Yesterday she never spoke with me at all but this morning I was greeted with a good morning kiss and got a text today saying she's going to make an effort. I just replied with a thank you. Now to see what the month holds for us.
> 
> I'll admit that once the words were uttered and I realized that I actually said it, I felt a weight being lifted off my shoulders.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That's not selfish at all. That's smart. 

Also, unless she starts showing genuine effort, it's best to stop saying 'I love you' to each other. You can't prevent her from saying it, but you can respond with: I'll see you later or good night, or ok. 


QUOTE=wannabe;7479882]Thanks LW. 
Your reply made me feel sad about my life and marriage. 

I've told her about TAM already and asked her to read up on some of the stories here. She forgets every day. 
Oh, almost forgot, it was our 9th wedding anniversary yesterday and also our 14 year anniversary of knowing each other. It was not a happy day. Pretty much the same as any other day except we both spoke 2 extra words with each other. "Happy Anniversary". Lol
I did nothing special for her. She did nothing special for me. The gift that I did get her, I kept wrapped in the car until I could see if she did anything for me. She didn't. I'm returning the gift tomorrow and getting myself some golf clubs instead. Selfish/wrong/passive aggressive of me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*MOST IMPORTANT of ALL*

Wannabe,
Insist on condoms. INSIST. 

Because I think she wants to stay married but doesn't want to fix anything. Good chance she wants to get pregnant. If you get her pregnant you will be stuck for quite some time. 

One man to another: I believe she doesn't like condoms. But THAT isn't why you've been sexless for 5 months. Ask any woman on here if she would refuse to have sex over a husbands condom use. 




wannabe said:


> Yes she did start taking the pill almost 3 weeks ago.
> She refuses to use condoms. Doesn't like the feel. She's not a lube fan either.
> When she started with the pill she asked me to give her "space" while we wait on the pill to take effect. Tried some light kissing about a week after she started taking it and she pulled back reminding me about the space she requested during this time. Space = no intimacy. Leave me alone for the next few weeks while I mentally prepare myself for sex. Basically.
> I've been through all phases that I can possibly think of that might make her come around. Nothing seems to do the trick. Something always pops up when we're due to have sex. Whether it be the heat; the cold; stomach cramps for days on end; headaches; infection; flu; too late; too early; kids are sleeping; work admin; her feet are cold; her feet are warm; my feet are cold; my feet are warm; her teeth are getting cold; she's due for her injection the next day/on her last pill in the pack; etc.
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow, you're a strict one, MEM. But I am sure you know what you are talking about.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Unless I'm mistaken, Wannabe has allowed his W to treat him without respect from the start of the marriage.

My suggestions were based on his thread commentary. Now that he's taken them to the precipice, he needs to navigate with a firm and steady hand. 




jld said:


> Wow, you're a strict one, MEM. But I am sure you know what you are talking about.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I can smell a 'Nice Guy' like sharks smell blood in the water.

I don't say this with any intended contempt, you don't sound ready. The book isn't long. Hell I read most of it on the crapper. You are unsure, off balance, and altogether far to accepting of the criticism leveled at you, by your wife, and even in this thread.

I am going to be concise.

All of the books, filled with the best advice, and all of the wisest, most brilliant forum posts in the world are absolutely and utterly meaningless without action.

NMMNG isn't about digesting the content. It's about acting on it.

I'm left with impression that your divorce statement was a reactionary response, rather than an declarative statement. Maybe I'm wrong.

Do not take a text and a few kind gestures as a sea change. It's lip service. Hold your spouse to a standard. And hold yourself to one. 
Find an anchor point for yourself, in terms of the man that you want to be. And quite honestly, if you are good with the man you are, then you don't need the book, or advice. You just need to remain a passenger for this ride you're on, until it comes to a stop ... somewhere.

Or ... you can drive, and decide where you stop, or let her out anywhere along the way to where YOU want to go.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I can't even disagree with you. As much as I'd like to, but after getting through NMMNG, it dawned on me that I am THAT/THOSE guys. I never thought it was a bad thing. Thought females appreciated their man doing the nice guy type things. Turns out I was wrong? 
I'm not perfect. Not even for a second. I get angry with her for no reason at times just because something reminded me of how things were meant to be. Other times I get mad at her for carrying on like we're the perfect married couple. Other times I get angry with her for making plans for the future while all I can think about is how we're not having sex and that intimacy is so low on her radar. 
Other days I wake up, catch a glimpse of her getting ready for the day and I'm amazed at how beautiful she is and how lucky I was to have married such a hot wife. Then I'd get mad at the fact that my hot wife literally hasn't touched me in weeks. Other days I think "fcuk it" and we'll get along like a house on fire for weeks. Then out of nowhere, I'd see something or be reminded that it's all seems very pretend like coz the happy payoff that's supposed to go with those feelings don't come after we've climbed under the covers. 
I'm not perfect. Not by a long shot. I'm not always sure how to handle this situation so I play it by ear I guess. I never asked for this. I don't have a contingency plan for this new normal. I wish I did. 
I'm fighting off the urge to cheat on her on a daily basis. Some days are easier than others. Yet, after alls been said and done, I still love this woman so very much. I would watch her sleep sometimes or just catch her while she's watching TV or reading and I'll stare at her for the longest of times in total awe of her beauty and the ill feelings I have toward her disappears and that intense; pure and unadulterated feeling of love for her would overcome me. Every day is different. I'm trying my very best. 
I don't know what I'm doing right or wrong half the time. 
Thanks for listening and indulging me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Just like that. With no warning, she decided she's not doing the pill anymore. By that time I was so done with the fighting and anger I justllooked at her with zero anger or angst and said it's fine. What the hell am I doing??? 

During our argument last weekend, I asked her what's stopping me from cheating since sex is, as she put it, after I asked, on a scale of one to ten, a 1 in her importance book. Asked her, seeing that it's a 1 in her book, then she wouldn't mind if I went and got my needs met elsewhere? News flash - She minds!!! A lot. 
I had a work presentation in the week where I needed to be at. It was after hours so after work on the day, I went home to get a shower and change. The presentation started at 7 and ran till around 11. Then, after the presentation, the GM and I got to talking about some things (not work related) and we were having drinks. A couple of my colleagues joined in later. At around 2:30am, the bar called last round. I had no idea we had been chatting for hours. When I got home she was p!ssed that I didn't come home straight after the presentation and then for not calling when I realized things were gna run late. Got accused of not being at the work thing and being out with some floozy. I got home and went straight to the bathroom to brush my teeth and take a p!ss. As I was peeing she walked into the bathroom and violently pushed me against the wall, went down on her knees and... SMELLED MY PEN!S. For a minute there I thought I was getting a BJ. Lol. When she realized, after sniffing me for a while, that I still smelled of "me", she accuses me of washing up or showering at my floozy's place. I laughed all this off, told her she's projecting her guilt by trying to look for fault with me now instead of admitting and dealing with her own issues. 
This roller coaster ride I'm on is going to be the death of me. The next day things were fine again. She didn't mention it again. Just before I woke up that morning, I was woken by her lightly sniffing me again. I played possum and left her. She was down there for a good 5 minutes or so. Cost me everything I had not to get a hard on while she was down there. 
The death of me I tell you. The death of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I really hate banging my head against the wall. There's only one way to respond to all this BS and I think you know it. You can't nice your way to a real marriage.


----------



## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

wannabe said:


> Just like that. With no warning, she decided she's not doing the pill anymore. By that time I was so done with the fighting and anger I justllooked at her with zero anger or angst and said it's fine. What the hell am I doing???
> 
> I got home and went straight to the bathroom to brush my teeth and take a p!ss. *As I was peeing she walked into the bathroom and violently pushed me against the wall, went down on her knees and... SMELLED MY PEN!S.* For a minute there I thought I was getting a BJ. Lol. When she realized, after sniffing me for a while, that I still smelled of "me", she accuses me of washing up or showering at my floozy's place. I laughed all this off, told her she's projecting her guilt by trying to look for fault with me now instead of admitting and dealing with her own issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wannabe, I haven't returned to this thread for a while even though I have been following it. The reason is, is that it's a little frustrating. 

The part I bolded, shocked me when I first read it. Her actions seem physically and emotionally abusive. First the pushing, then the sniffing? Wow. I wouldn't be laughing this off. I would be really, really angry. Really. I think she's overstepped the bounds of common decency and the respect owed to her spouse - who is supposed to be the love of her life.

Her going off the pill = bad sign. Looks like she just pulled the carrot back. She's punishing you for something.
You saying it's ok = dishonest. Please don't say or act like something is ok when it's not.

Your relationship has gone from bad to worse in a very short span off time. Hon, this woman doesn't seem to respect you. Do you think she still wants to be married to you?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This squishy, mushy stuff is perfectly normal for a nice guy. 

But you - you're celibate not because you FEEL this way inside but rather because you externalize it in a manner that shows weakness, instead of passion, fear instead of determination. 

Love - is not a plan. 

And threatening consequences and backing off is the whole reason you get treated like a doormat. 





wannabe said:


> I can't even disagree with you. As much as I'd like to, but after getting through NMMNG, it dawned on me that I am THAT/THOSE guys. I never thought it was a bad thing. Thought females appreciated their man doing the nice guy type things. Turns out I was wrong?
> I'm not perfect. Not even for a second. I get angry with her for no reason at times just because something reminded me of how things were meant to be. Other times I get mad at her for carrying on like we're the perfect married couple. Other times I get angry with her for making plans for the future while all I can think about is how we're not having sex and that intimacy is so low on her radar.
> Other days I wake up, catch a glimpse of her getting ready for the day and I'm amazed at how beautiful she is and how lucky I was to have married such a hot wife. Then I'd get mad at the fact that my hot wife literally hasn't touched me in weeks. Other days I think "fcuk it" and we'll get along like a house on fire for weeks. Then out of nowhere, I'd see something or be reminded that it's all seems very pretend like coz the happy payoff that's supposed to go with those feelings don't come after we've climbed under the covers.
> I'm not perfect. Not by a long shot. I'm not always sure how to handle this situation so I play it by ear I guess. I never asked for this. I don't have a contingency plan for this new normal. I wish I did.
> ...


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Wow, and I thought I had already read everything on this site. This takes the cake.

If someone has a fear about cheating, they might sniff your underwear from the hamper. But someone sniffing your penis, after shoving you.... That is just the alpha wolf putting you in your place.

I know we all have our own blinders, but I would hope you can see the abusive relationship you're in and you start running, not walking away.

I'm not really sure what further evidence you're looking for.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

wannabe said:


> As I was peeing she walked into the bathroom and violently pushed me against the wall, went down on her knees and...


Seems like we know who the alpha in this marriage is. Unless this is something you are willing to take you should go find a nicer woman. I do not see it as likely that you will be able to control the situation.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

wannabe said:


> As I was peeing she walked into the bathroom and violently pushed me against the wall, went down on her knees and... SMELLED MY PEN!S. For a minute there I thought I was getting a BJ. Lol. When she realized, after sniffing me for a while, that I still smelled of "me", she accuses me of washing up or showering at my floozy's place. I laughed all this off, told her she's projecting her guilt by trying to look for fault with me now instead of admitting and dealing with her own issues.
> This roller coaster ride I'm on is going to be the death of me. The next day things were fine again. She didn't mention it again. Just before I woke up that morning, I was woken by her lightly sniffing me again. I played possum and left her. She was down there for a good 5 minutes or so. Cost me everything I had not to get a hard on while she was down there.
> The death of me I tell you. The death of me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You actually allowed her to do this to you? To treat you like a whipped puppy being sniffed by its mother???

Come on man. I LOVE nice guys.LOVE them. But this is beyond nice. This is sad. 

This WILL be the death of you if you don't get a handle on it.Your tombstone will read "I'm here bc I was too nice."

While she was down there sniffing your stick you should have smacked her in the face with it. Unreal.


----------



## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

wannabe;7654401As I was peeing she walked into the bathroom and violently pushed me against the wall said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


Riskay - Smell Yo **** - YouTube


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Scarlet,
I was sort of stunned when I read wannabes depiction of events and his totally passive response. 

Here's what's so sad about this situation. 

He's actually glad that she still cares enough to get agitated like this. But he's confusing her pride for love. Her behavior is all about her belief that she owns him. He's a possession, not a partner. 

Note: instead of proactively leading the marriage towards balance, towards true partnership, he's playing passive/aggressive head games with her. And YES it is aggressive to:
- threaten imminent divorce, 
- then choose NOT to be assertive then,
- go out til 2:00 am without calling

QUOTE=ScarletBegonias;7680993]You actually allowed her to do this to you? To treat you like a whipped puppy being sniffed by its mother???

Come on man. I LOVE nice guys.LOVE them. But this is beyond nice. This is sad. 

This WILL be the death of you if you don't get a handle on it.Your tombstone will read "I'm here bc I was too nice."

While she was down there sniffing your stick you should have smacked her in the face with it. Unreal.[/QUOTE]


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Scarlet,
> I was sort of stunned when I read wannabes depiction of events and his totally passive response.
> 
> Here's what's so sad about this situation.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Yup.This isn't being done from love.It's being done to show he belongs to her. Just shy of taking a cup of her own urine and pouring it all over him. Or tattooing her name on his ****. 

I get agitated and aggressive too if someone messes with my stuff...doesn't mean I love my stuff,just means it's mine.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The most obvious inference to be drawn from this sequence is that Ms. Wannabe is used to being able to control Wannabe. 

If only marionetteering was a type of foreplay. Sadly it is the ultimate desire killer....


Yup.This isn't being done from love.It's being done to show he belongs to her. Just shy of taking a cup of her own urine and pouring it all over him. Or tattooing her name on his ****. 

I get agitated and aggressive too if someone messes with my stuff...doesn't mean I love my stuff,just means it's mine.[/QUOTE]


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

When are you going to start standing up for yourself? Tell her to keep her face out of your junk unless she's giving you head. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

"Hey, while you're down there, open wide ..."


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

By the way, seems pretty obvious that she _wants_ him to cheat, so that he can be the bad guy when the split. There is no way she's going to admit or live with the fact that anything is her fault.

That fact that he's feeling temptation to cheat is a scary thought. Hopefully he can stay strong, get ready to leave, leave, then live a real life.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

wannabe said:


> I'm trying to get to the bottom of what's really wrong with her. If she's no longer attracted to me and is grown up enough to admit this, then I'd walk away gladly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^ ^ ^

Yes, this. I think she is no longer attracted to you, however, I DO NOT believe she is grown up enough to admit it. Your story makes me sad because I, too, was in a sexless, no-intimacy marriage for 20 years. I got out. I understand exactly what you are going through.

However, allowing her to sniff your privates goes way beyond the pale. It's humiliating and demeaning. She is calling the shots.

You need to do a hard 180 and start thinking about leaving this woman. What is keeping you there?


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> ^ ^ ^
> 
> Yes, this. I think she is no longer attracted to you, however, I DO NOT believe she is grown up enough to admit it. Your story makes me sad because I, too, was in a sexless, no-intimacy marriage for 20 years. I got out. I understand exactly what you are going through.
> 
> ...


W you may as well move on and d right now.
What's the point anymore assuming this is real.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

How do you stay calm while someone is sniffing your body for scent of another person?? 

I'm no longer the physically violent person I was when I was a teenager but I think my husband would get a knee to the face if he was violating me like that.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

wannabe said:


> When she realized, after sniffing me for a while, that I still smelled of "me", she accuses me of washing up or showering at my floozy's place. *I laughed all this off...*
> The death of me I tell you. The death of me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This really bothers me. You _laughed it off?_ Personally, I would be OUTRAGED if my partner sniffed my junk and accused me of being out cheating. I know you've said you read NMMNG, but you really need to stop being that nice guy.

You said she violently pushed you against the wall. Ummm, this is UNACCEPTABLE. Personally I would have shoved her away before she got anywhere near my junk. I probably would have b*tch-slapped her (I know, I know, cops would have been called.) But she certainly deserved it. And I'm not an advocate of violence.

I really cannot believe you were willing to put up with that. And then she did it again in bed in the morning. And you let her.

Wow...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HAC,
Right. She doesn't respect him. And sans respect, female desire is not really possible. 

Wannabe ought to do a legal separation and provide her no transparency. Three months will give him his answer. Fifty-fifty that she will unravel and beg forgiveness. 






happy as a clam said:


> ^ ^ ^
> 
> Yes, this. I think she is no longer attracted to you, however, I DO NO
> 
> ...


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

wannabe said:


> As I was peeing she walked into the bathroom and violently pushed me against the wall, went down on her knees and... SMELLED MY PEN!S. _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should have kept peeing.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"I'll stare at her for the longest of times in total awe of her beauty and the ill feelings I have toward her disappears and that intense; pure and unadulterated feeling of love for her would overcome me."

I don't really get this. Did you marry her for her looks? I just do not see how it would be possible to love a woman who is cold toward you. I could maybe like her general personality and/or I could respect her abilities...

... but love her?

No Way. 
That is like Stockholm syndrome.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

usmarriedguy said:


> ... but love her?
> 
> No Way.
> That is like Stockholm syndrome.


Agree.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Second that*

US,
I had the exact same thought when I read that. 

When M2 and I resolve conflict, I usually want at least a day before even thinking about sex. I don't feel desire unless she is being nice to me. 



usmarriedguy said:


> "I'll stare at her for the longest of times in total awe of her beauty and the ill feelings I have toward her disappears and that intense; pure and unadulterated feeling of love for her would overcome me."
> 
> I don't really get this. Did you marry her for her looks? I just do not see how it would be possible to love a woman who is cold toward you. I could maybe like her general personality and/or I could respect her abilities...
> 
> ...


----------



## smilinatu (Jan 9, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> Here's the best advice I can give, based on my situation & others like me. Unless you are utterly miserable, just eliminate all thoughts of sex. Forget the "us" talks & show just enough affection that still tells her you love her. This approach won't win you any praise from the "be a man & grow a pair" crowd, but that really translates to "put out or get out", and if that is your reasoning, like already said, you have to be willing to risk losing everything.
> Do I want a normal sex life with my wife? Of course I do, but I'm not throwing everything else good away because of it. We get along great but we're not close, even though she still maintains there is nothing wrong & a lack of intimacy will kill a marriage & my mindset is the marriage is gone, just two people who love each other that share a home & bed. Our idea of what a true marriage should be changed meaning for both of us at some point??
> The bottomline is survival & you are the only one that knows what you can & can't take?


I started reading this thread tonight, and have only gotten up to January 2014. I usually try to read an entire thread before I respond, but I have to offer a thought. Many people who have replied to the OP have noted they had similar experiences. I too have had a very frustrating experience with my LD wife. If true, however, this story seems very different.

The OP tells us that his wife has said something to the effect of, "I hope you don't think this [gift] is going to get you laid." This is not just her being too lazy to try to satisfy his needs, a lack of attraction, or being overwhelmed by all the demands on her. That statement and others he has attributed to her, show a level of disrespect and meanness that seems to me to be inconsistent with any form of caring, much less love. I have never been a poker player, but I've heard it said that a good player knows when to stop throwing good money after bad. The OP is well past that point. This will never get better, and if you stay she will always know she has you wrapped and will be meaner, still. I'm still trying to work out my own problems, so I say this reluctantly; but you should end your pain now. It will be hard to cut the cord, but leaving it attached will be harder. I hope this hasn't sounded too rough, because I really wish you luck.


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I only read the original post.

It seems like your wife has 0 desire or care to satisfy you and make sure her loved one is happy.

That is a HUGE red flag and concern. Talk to her about that FAST.

As a woman she should know what's at risk (end of marriage or you go off with another woman).


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wannabe said:


> Did it. Had another argument over the weekend and before I knew it, I had uttered the words that if something doesn't change by end of March, then I'm divorcing. As soon as it came out I had to push through. There's at least got to be an attempt at getting to the bottom of things from her side.
> Yesterday she never spoke with me at all but this morning I was greeted with a good morning kiss and got a text today saying she's going to make an effort. I just replied with a thank you. Now to see what the month holds for us.
> 
> I'll admit that once the words were uttered and I realized that I actually said it, I felt a weight being lifted off my shoulders.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's 4/3/2014. This is when your wife finds out if your actions match your words.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's 4/3/2014. This is when your wife finds out if your actions match your words.


Did you put that in your day planner as a reminder?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Did you put that in your day planner as a reminder?


I saw the thread and wondered how long since the last update. So I clicked on his profile to see the most recent posts and saw this little gem near the top of the list.


----------



## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Did you put that in your day planner as a reminder?


:lol:


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AP,
WOM is right though. 

Tell you one thing, if it was obvious to a bunch of total strangers that wannabe was bluffing about his resolve, it was even more so to his W. 




Anon Pink said:


> Did you put that in your day planner as a reminder?


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Just a quick update. 
I appreciate all the advice given here. I've used as much as I could carry away from here. 

So, the update:
After my outburst, I focused more on me and the kids. Left her to sort the sh!The going on in her head out. Kept treating her like a human being. Wasn't rude or bitter at all. Around 3 weeks ago I told her that I made the councilling appointment for the both of us. Told her that if she didn't wanna go then I'd go alone. On the day of the first appointment I wasn't expecting her to go. To my surprise she also started getting ready to go as I was getting ready. She asked me if we're taking separate cars to the appointment. I said no we're using my car. We went to our first session. The session was long. Counselor first had us both in the room. After we both talked, he asked me to step outside for a few minutes. They spoke for around a half hour. I was called back in. He said he has homework for us. Homework was to write down all the things we loved and hated about each other. 2nd part was to hold each other that night and all nights until next sessionthe ffollowing week. We did the homework. 
Session 2. Both read our lists to one another. Mine was more focused on lack of respect/intimacy/love ; her shortcomings in the house; etc. He's was about me leaving the toilet seat up and occasionally leaving my razor or toothbrush out. Counselor said her lists were lame and that she didn't try. 
Spoke some more with him. I was asked to step out again. Called back 20 minutes later. She had been crying. I could tell. Counselor spoke about the importance of intimacy in marriage and told her to thank me every day of our lives together for not cheating on her. She's doing that now. Quite literally. Homework. Have sex at least 3 times before next session. Fourth night after session we gave it a go. Didn'tfgo well. Both were nervous and scared. I quit half way through foreplay coz it seemed too forced. In the morning SHE said she'd like to try again. I said OK. She went out of the bedroom and came back in some lengire. It was hard to get it just right but we managed. 
We didn't manage the 3 times that the company councilor suggested. It was just once for that week.
Session 3. More talking to both of us. He said I'd have my one on one sessions next month. He said the issues lie mostly with her. He suggested we go away for a weekend. I booked a room for that very weekend. We treated it like a honeymoon. Was a great weekend. We talked; held hands; cried made love. She even initiated once. Wow.
It's going real slow right now as I've still not reached orgasm once while trying. Reflex thing???
Anyway, I'm enjoying the marriage for the first time in years. And it's not just that we're making love. I've missed her touch. Her conversation. Her loving/caring manner. 
Session 4. Tonight. I'm enjoying counseling so much. She is too. Last night she told me that she had no idea how much she was missing orgasms until we made love the week before. She texted me a picture of some new lingire she'd bought as a surprise. She seems into it. For now at least. 
I'm out for now. I'll keep updating as things develop. 

Thank you all for your advice. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I don't know. Maybe my bad mood right now has tainted my view, but I'm just not buying this update.

How does your wife go from closed off, shut down, borderline psychotic to guilt ridden and grateful wife in two short counseling sessions? You did say the first session was long. The second session she had cried during her 1:1, and then was given the riot act by the counselor (that right there doesn't sound right either) and this prompted such huge change in her?

Maybe other members will see something my b!tchy eyes are unable to grasp.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do you have trouble orgasming because you are moving and wondering if you wife is enjoying it?


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm sorry, I'd like to celebrate with you but there are too many reasons not to throw a party. Not having orgasms is a big big problem. My opinion is that your therapist should have a plan for a solution.

A bigger problem is that you are planning a romantic weekend when you are so far away from identifying all the problems. Why didn't you mention the lack of orgasms on your list? Do you orgasm when you masturbate or receive oral sex? 

My impression is that you are so anxious to please her that you don't ask for your fair share of attention. To me, you are still not getting what you need.

It's more disturbing that you don't consider it important enough to be front and center. I'm with Anon. Don't understand the change. If you know why she turned on a dime please tell us.

I just wanted to tell you to please prepare yourself for the worse while you hope for the best. It is too soon to declare a victory.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

BTW thank you for taking the time to update us.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Not sure what was said in their one on one. I didn't ask her. Wife seems more at ease these days. Better to get along with. Less angry. 
Me not orgasming isn't such a big deal. I think it's a trust thing. It will come back I'm sure. If it doesn't then I'll bring it up in my one on one with therapist. 
I wish I knew what was said in the one on one they had. The therapist we're seeing mentioned at the first session that he calls it as it is. I've gotten off lightly so far but feel that my time in the hot seat will come. Councilling seems to be working. We've never been to Councilling before so not sure how long healing is supposed to take. We have 8 sessions booked with this guy in total. We'll see how it goes. 
Well, besides the sex part that's picked up, we're talking again. It sure is easier for us to talk to each when we're having sex.

Anyway, one of my kids broke fell and broke her arm a few hours before our session so we had to cancel tonight's session since we were sitting at the ER.
I'm taking this new feelings around my marriage with some caution coz I know that things have seemed better in the past too and then she'd change with no warning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

I think it's worth celebrating because something (anything) is happening right now. And it wasn't before.

Good for you for taking control & booking it. Hope you can remember this in the future. YOU are the only person you can rely on right now to get shyte done for yourself.

Wannabe says he's being cautious, which is really most of our concerns at the moment, so that is good.

He wanted to go down swinging first, before quitting on his marriage, and this is it.

I'm not surprised that things have picked up. It seems pretty obvious to me that he wife has communication issues, or had something to say that she couldn't get off her chest with wannabe. The counselor was able to give her that release, and it's probably quite a relief to her. It's surprising to people how powerful voicing/admitting issues out loud really is. Entire 12 step programs are based on this.

I hate to say it, but it might be she admitted to some cheating. Or something else bad. Who knows. Hopefully you'll find out one way or the other. 

I'll be honest... I would want to know too. And I would have "accidentally" turned on and dropped this little guy in my seat when I was asked to leave the room:

Amazon.com: amzdeal® 8GB USB Pen Drive Digital Audio Voice Recorder 150 Hours: Electronics

By the way, don't sweat the hot seat. Don't forget YOU'RE the one that actually wants to work things out, and make things better. You should welcome any self-help the counselor will give you.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Good Day everybody...
It's been awhile since I last replied here.
Update, Counseling is still an ongoing thing. A lot of detail about our marriage surfaced that I didnt know about. A lot of W's fears and hangups were brought forth with the help of the councilor. Basically, what it all came down to was her subconsciously comparing our marriage to that of her parent's. (They never had the greatest of marriages.) She was subconsciously punishing me for things she saw in her parent's marriage while growing up. She never gave me the benefit of the doubt in that regard. Counselor says that my actions/responses to the situation was mostly justifiable. Loads of resentment from my side which we've been working on breaking down.
There was definitely no affair during our marriage - Councilor called me in after a session saying that he can sense I'm suspecting that she's had an affair and just wanted to put my fears at rest and confirmed that she has not had any sort of affair.
Things are still awkward at times in the bedroom I guess. But, the frequency has improved drastically. I still fear being rejected when I initiate. I still fear that she is going to initiate and then not follow through halfway through. She fears that if she should reject me again that I'll revert back to my old settings. We're learning to trust each other in the bedroom again now. 
Currently, we're up to around 2-3 times a week with me only being allowed to initiate once a week (for now) according to the councilor. W and I are generally happier now. Things are way less tense at home. Kids are happier too. Yesterday, she surprised me by taking me along to some underwear store and wanted my input on an outfit or two which she's been pondering on (we went for the Cat woman outfit just so BTW) lol
Well... thats my update for now. Please feel free to share your thoughts; questions; wisdom pearls; etc...

Thanks for reading


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There are also Boy Robin for girl costumes :lol:

Sounds like professional help improved your marriage a great deal.

You never explained why you had trouble orgasming. Did you solve this?

Does your wife feel more in love with you now?


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> There are also Boy Robin for girl costumes :lol:
> 
> Sounds like professional help improved your marriage a great deal.
> 
> ...


At the underwear store, she was leaning alot toward the little Nurse Maid costume but something about Cat woman leathers made us both decide that CW was the way to go. She did ask the lady at the cashiers if they had a small in the Nurse Maid costume though... and they did. Said she'll go back and pick it up some time and surprise me 

Professional help really is helping a great deal. We make it our business never to miss a session. We missed some in the beginning but nothing since.

Dont know what that was all about. Maybe the moment was too big. Maybe I wasn't as "into" her at the time as I thought I was. Maybe I was so used to taking matters into my own hands that the real thing just wasn't hitting the spot. I dont know what that was all about. But, it was a once off. Hasn't occurred again since. I've actually just thought about it for the first time now ever since it happened. It was definitely a once off.

We've spoken about our feelings at great lengths over the last few months. From my side, I can say that I do feel alot closer to her than ever before. 
From her side, I can see how truly happy she is when I get home from work for instance. The hugs she gives are actual hugs. They tend to linger. Not like before where she was basically just standing there like a mannequin. I can feel the affection/love these days. Even if I just look at the way she hands me my morning cup of coffee. A huge difference compared to how she would have given it to me in January. All in all, I'd say yes. It sure does feel like she is inlove with me again. I have not asked her this directly, nor has she uttered it in as many words, but the general feeling is there.
I was working on a project at home a few weeks back and she was making dinner while I worked on my laptop. Midway through my work, I start feeling uneasy. I look up and she's standing in the kitchen door just looking at me. And not that "I wish you'd just die" look. But more a "Wow, look at my husband" kind of look. When I looked up and asked her what's wrong, she simply said: "Nothing, I just love you so much". Came over; kissed me then went back to cooking.

I must add that I look forward to going home lately. I find that I am not thinking about s3x constantly anymore. I still think about s3x alot, but it's not constantly on my mind anymore. Some nights I dont even think about getting some. I'm more than happy with the fact that we're not arguing every night anymore and that we're actively working on this issue consciously, together.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm glad therapy is working for you. It's good to hear success stories.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What a great update!!


----------



## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Great update, kind of rare around here.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I strongly doubt that my marriage would be where it is were it not for the many, many hours spent on this site.
I've been on other sites in the past and the advice I got from those were usually just "leave her" or "cheat". I was amazed when I found TAM and read that people were actually offering possible solutions to some stranger's marital problems. I've received some harsh words on the site - None of which I got mad at. I welcomed those harsh words - and still do. I've received some great PM's from site members offering solutions/alternatives/words of strength/sympathy/empathy... all of which I listened to and carried out in my personal life in my quest to improve things. In my quest to "fix her", I've discovered a lot wrong with myself. So, I put her on the back burner for a while and concentrated on myself. I got happy again. I've met some great people on my quest. I've made some new friends; hooked up with old friends too. I even managed to help a very old friend of mine through a hard time in her own life. If, at the end of it all, if all that came from this whole ordeal was the fact that I could help my very old school friend through the issues she was going through, then it would still have all been very worth it. :smthumbup:
But, back to my story:
This site has been an invaluable source of knowledge. The advice received here, probably saved my marriage. It was the advice received here - and reading through the other sections too - which saved me from getting involved with a co-worker. This site really helped me and I really would like to thank you all personally or even by name right now, but that's gna take a long time... so here goes... THANK YOU TO YOU ALL!!!

In response to your question about whether my wife is more in love with me now @LongWalk:
Your comment got me thinking. And it was on my mind all weekend. I kept looking at her trying to figure out if there was/is something different in her. She caught me starring a few times. I'd just smile and look away again. I haven't initiated for a few days now - mostly due to the fact that I've been dead tired due to work. Tonight, we got home from being out all day with the kids. Kids tire you out  , We get the kids bathed and ready for bed. As soon as they were in bed, I jumped in the shower and got into bed while she was catching up on some of her admin. While lying in bed for about 15 minutes trying to get to sleep, she comes over to me and starts rubbing my back. Told me how happy she is that I never gave up on her. Told me a long story about "How I am her Angel" for "saving" her many years ago when we just met. Said that if it weren't for meeting me that night, her life would have definitely taken another route and that I was definitely sent to save her. This left me with the  look on my face. She just giggled and said that she loves me.
At this time, I remembered your comment @LongWalk, so I asked her - "Love me or in love with me?" She giggled again and answered - "I've never ever stopped loving you. There were times that I was so mad at you and mad at myself that I could not be inlove with you but then you'd almost always say the right things and I'd be back in love with you again... but too stubborn to show it/say it. Well, I am in love with you Mr. X"
That's kind of what she said. She kissed me and initiated to start something. I told her that tonight is out coz I'm dead tired. She hugged me and said: "OK babe, but tomorrow morning you'll have some catching up to do"  :smthumbup: 

So generally, things are super great at home. We still have arguments about things. Still disagree about things. We're a normal married couple now and thanks to the therapy, she doesn't "punish me" by withholding s3x. Therapy has taught her not to sweat the little things. That every little thing going wrong does not mean that I don’t love her. Taught her that when I am mad at her for whatever reason, that I still love her. Actually, I think therapy has basically taught her that the world/my world doesn't revolve around her and that it's ok. 

I think I've said a mouthful here now. I'm no expert at any of this yet. We're just taking it day by day and try not to let the little things sweat us too much.
Life is good - Again...


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Great update, wannabe.

About the fighting/arguing: If you're anything like me, your go-to response to stress or conflict is anger or being a jerk. This is something you can work on, and attempt to live a more conscious life. And of course, when that doesn't work, I try to catch myself afterward and apologize then or that night. It sounds like you've cleared away a lot of the past issues and resentment, and by doing this daily helps clear the seeds of resentment from growing again.


----------



## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Every day is different. Some days the happy go lucky me happens by default, other days I have to consciously tell myself to remember to act differently. Most times I catch myself before it gets there but at the odd occasion that it does get away from me, she'll notice, yet haven't said anything about them. She's a whole lot more concerned and loving than she was a year ago. When she looses it at times I also give her what she gives me. We're both learning. We've been angry with each other for so long that getting all happy and staying there is going to take some time. But this time, we're both working on it. 
Things are going well. Maybe too well. I keep waiting for the penny to drop but so far, it's been pretty steady. 
Hanging in there


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

There's just something about a good therapist asking you both to be accountable to them, a third party, that's effective when a couple can't manage it themselves. A spouse making sex into an obligation for the other spouse makes sex feel a chore, and therefore less likely. A therapist ordering spouses to have sex with one another is an obligation that is completely different. It makes sex about partnership and mutual happiness again. I always recommend trying therapy, and with a therapist who is the right fit, before separation. Even a healthy marriage can benefit from annual checkups.

A lot of marital discord stems from vicious cycles (I'm grumpy because you never have sex with me anymore! I never have sex with you because grumpiness is unattractive!) that neither is willing to be the one to give in on to end, and a trained third party can just step in and do it.


----------

