# Some Examples of Gaslighting



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

When I was being gaslit in my first marriage, I had no idea. After years of this kind of treatment, I honestly did feel crazy and second-guessed pretty much every thought I had, because I had years of conditioning to not trust my own perception. So here are some common things that gaslighters say and why they say them:

1. "You’re too sensitive (or emotional)." The intent is to shift attention away from their unacceptable behavior by making you second guess whether you responded appropriately or went overboard.

2. “Your friends are morons." The intent is to isolate you so you can't turn to others to double check if their behavior is acceptable or not--no one else can help you see their cruelty.

3. “You’re twisting things.” The intent is to avoid consequences when you call them out on their unacceptable behavior, such as if they made a joke at your expense, they had good intent and you are twisting it to call them out on it.

4. “I remember you agreed to do that.” The intent is to alter your own memory to benefit them...and make you second guess yourself and your own memory.

5. “I never said that. You have a terrible memory.” Again the intent is to alter your memory to benefit them, but this time it is train you that you can not rely on your own mind.

6. “This is why no one likes you.” The intent is to completely destroy your self-esteem, poke at your insecurities, and make sure you think you can not turn to others for verificatio nor help.

7. "You are just overthinking it." The intent is to get you to stop questioning (shut you down) and stop thinking about the situation--in others words, to make you stop exerting the mental energy to better the situation.

8. "That was never my intention, stop blaming me." The intent is to avoid accountability and to train you that THEY decide what's valid, not you. They even decide what your feelings should be. 

9. "I think you need help." The intent is to make you check yourself before you speak. Whatever thoughts you have, and whatever perceptions you have, are crazy and you better keep them secret or others will know.

10. "Just forget about it now." The intent is to dismiss your concerns and not have to deal with them. It also communicates that there's lack of value in the concern (or in you).

11. “I never said that.” The intent is to make you question your own self and your own mind. They are saying, "I decide what did and did not happen" so reality because subjective and only one person sees it...and that person is NOT you!

12. “Why do you always have to argue with me?” The intent is to make you stop challenging their narrative or the reality they are presenting. If you call out lies or state facts, then it's a sign of being argumentative and YOU are the abusive one!


----------



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

I heard every single one of them. 
It is so clear now...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ugh.

I've had to really go to the mat with Mrs. Conan to get her to stop using a few of those.

FOO habits are hard to break.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

This topic is hard for me, and I find that conversations can become very confusing very quickly.

2, 6, 9, and 10 seem obviously disrespectful, but I personally find the others a little more difficult.

How do you respond when someone really is twisting what you say? Or they did make promises? Or when you genuinely didn't say what they're accusing you of? 😰

It happens. 😬


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I used to get "I feel like if I took a bullet for you it wouldn't be enough". 

Once when I brought up his poor boundaries with his 1st wife (daughter's mother) I was accused to hating his daughter. Then of course the conversation was supposed to shift away from his poor boundaries to how I didn't hate his daughter.

These are deflection tactics so they don't have to address the issue at hand.

Then of course there was the constant playing dumb, which is supreme gaslighting.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

But then in the book, _Why Men Love *****es_, there's an entire chapter about playing dumb?



lifeistooshort said:


> Then of course there was the constant playing dumb, which is supreme gaslighting.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

minimalME said:


> But then in the book, _Why Men Love *****es_, there's an entire chapter about playing dumb?


Have it and read it.

Granted it's been a long time but I don't recall it being a means of deflecting accountability for being nasty. I think it was meant as ego stroke so men can feel like they're leading. 

For the record I don't agree with that mind set.

But ex did it because be was too much of a coward to own being a douchebag.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

My parents said these:

1. You’re a trouble-maker, you’re trying to destroy this family. Said in response to me calling things out.

2. Why are you doing this to me? You’re killing me! Said in response to me calling things out.

3. Who told you this? I’m going to call them and find out. Said as a way to find out who I was close to, who I may be leaning to for support. Fear. Divide and conquer.

4. Your friends will ruin your life. I don’t have any friends, friends can’t be trusted. Again, a way of isolating me.

5. I’m going to leave if you don’t stop this. 

So not in my marriage, but I’m sure there are similarities in relationships.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I couldn't imagine living with someone that bullies like this, let alone share a life and relationship with them. It's understandable how this could bring one down and/or be exhausting.

This is a work-related scenario and different to marital negotiations, although how we navigate and negotiate relationships through-out various aspects of life do cross-over. Anyway, another manager was instigating toxic-style shenanigans. Gaslighting tactics were applied. It started impacting and upsetting my team and I suggested they continue working with integrity and not to give the behavior further attention. I called out said shenanigans, and our boss initiated a mediated conversation. It wasn't something I particularly wanted to do, and so beforehand I considered that I had choices in how this went. From that place, was a sense of feeling truly grounded. I remained calmly focused on scenarios/outcomes; didn't make it personal; and also felt that I had nothing to lose. From that mental space, I gave myself leverage.

Of your list @Affaircare, eight of those sentiments were relayed to me within that one meeting. Having mentally prepared myself beforehand, none of it had a place to land. I experienced a grown-ass woman attempt several tactics that wound between versions of snark, personal attacks, and passive aggressive gaslight dialogue; seemingly trying to get an emotional reaction. In a way, I felt like I was observing the various learned strategies this person has used previously in life. And beyond that, saw an insecure person sitting across from me. I called out the behavior to establish boundaries which was supported by our mediator/boss. I remained unswayed through conscious choice and said what I needed to say. For the finale, she resorted to tears. _'You must hate me, and think I dislike you...'_ After what I'd just sat through, none of it impacted me. I handed her a tissue as they were near me, and told her straight that I didn't care whether she liked me or not; what was important to me was to be able to work together professionally. Afterwards, my boss expressed that I'd handled myself and the meeting with emotional intelligence. I left the office that day like it ain't no thing ...but in a sense, it was. I'm human and did consistently check-in with myself to continue with congruence through-out that yucky meeting. The shenanigans stopped following this. A short time after, I was giving props to my team who were just nailing what they needed to achieve. I really respected the work they were doing and how they were doing it. They expressed they could do this because they knew I had their back, which helped them to achieve these outcomes. They liked that I was consistent with communication, expectations, and support.

I refer to one meeting at work which I grounded myself for. I couldn't imagine having to think about such things within the sanctity of one's own home. In a marriage, I think one needs to have each others backs; not cultivate a dynamic of second-guessing, insecurity, or plain nastiness.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

minimalME said:


> This topic is hard for me, and I find that conversations can become very confusing very quickly.
> 
> 2, 6, 9, and 10 seem obviously disrespectful, but I personally find the others a little more difficult.
> 
> ...


You know, I'm not an expert in the field of gaslighting or counseling or any of that, but let's digest this a little. Let's take the example of twisting things. I'd have to think of an example so we can discuss it and think about it, okay? Hmmmm...to keep it "gender neutral" (because I believe both genders can do this), we'll refer to the participants as Partner A and Partner B, and for our example, Partner B is the gaslighter. 

So are you suggesting a situation like this: 
Partner A [in an observatory way]: "Oh my goodness you're home a little late tonight" (meaning that Partner B was 20 minutes later than usual)
Partner B: "Why are you always griping about what time I come home? You're lucky I even come home at all!"
And Partner A thinks Partner B is twisting their meaning? 

Well I have no idea if there is a proper way to handle such a discussion, but one thing I have learned is that Partner A will likely want to explain or kind of defend themselves, and that will do little or no good. I think the super typical reaction is for Partner A to say "I didn't mean it that way" or "I only meant that you're usually home by 5pm and it's almost 5:30 now" at which point Partner B (the gaslighter) would start in probably with something that makes Partner A doubt their perspective, doubt their observation or memory, and doubt their own intention! 

For me, I found that sometimes the best way to reply is to agree in a highly exaggerated way. Maybe something like this:

Partner A [in an observatory way]: "Oh my goodness you're home a little late tonight."
Partner B: "Why are you always griping about what time I come home? You're lucky I even come home at all!"
Partner A: "Oh you're right. Look how lucky I AM! (huge eyeroll)." LOL or...
Partner A: "Yeah, having your spouse come home is luck...just MY luck!" 

If you explain, it's like giving them more ammunition to shoot you with...but if you agree with them, uh all of a sudden you've taken the wind out of their sails. If they laugh, that can break the tension, but if they don't, you agreed so they don't have more to sling at you. Of course, lot's of gaslighters are REALLY skilled and will come up with something anyway, but that's no reflection on Partner A. That's all on Partner B's plate.

Let's look at making promises that aren't kept. I actually had a LOT of problems with this one, to the point where I'd take notes during our conversations and a couple times I recorded 'em (this was back in the late 1990's so technology was slacking)! Anyway, in my experience, my exH would often agree to something sort of just to shut me up...and then when it was supposed to be done he'd either "forget" or he'd outright say "I never agreed to that" or "You're crazy I'd never say that"... You get the drift. Anyway, it really did make me doubt my own memory and my own mind. I would say if someone makes a promise and doesn't keep it, it's reasonable to be human and forget or make a mistake (Oh gosh I thought that was for NEXT Monday!)...right? In that instance, a respectful partner would take personal responsibility and apologize--maybe not an over the hill, full out guilt-ridden thing, but at least "Oh shoot that was me. I forgot. Okay sorry I'll get right at it now." I could also see the situation where a person would USUALLY be a respectful partner, but they honestly don't remember it the way you do--in that case they would be respectful and say "I don't remember it like that, but that's okay there was a misunderstanding somehow. Can we start again and reach an agreement we both remember right now?" See how that doesn't avoid, doesn't duck responsibility, and really includes the other in a respectful way? But a partner who makes a promise, doesn't keep it, and then tries to claim you remember incorrectly so they don't have to be accountable for their own error? I'm sorry but that is the definition of a disrespectful person. What I say about a person like that is that you don't trust them because they aren't Trust WORTHY...which means WORTHY of trust!

Finally, let's look at the example of Partner A genuinely not saying what Partner B think they said. Again, just like the first situation, I suspect Partner A will want to explain--that's the natural response. Oddly enough, I think Partner A believes that if they explain, then Partner B will go "OH! That's what you meant! Well them I'm not angry! Thanks" and smile! But that's rarely how it goes. That's because if Partner B is a gaslighter or a verbal abuser, they are not looking for actual "reality"--they are looking for power and for a reason to explode. Who cares what that reason is! 

Let's think of a possible example. 
Partner A: "This is a warm day"
Partner B (who is cold): "Are you suggesting that you are tougher than me because you're not cold and I am?"
Partner A probably thinks "WTH? I didn't say that" and if they say that out loud, guess what? Partner B can say "Are you telling me I'm WRONG? I don't even know what I HEARD?" Verbal abuse ensues. 

What if Partner A did that "agree and joke" or "agree with some sarcasm" thing? Partner A could say "Yeah, that's what I'm saying...little ol' me is the tough one. LOL" ...or "Yeah you're right--I would talk like that to you." (eyeroll) 

See, in one sense I don't think there's too much a person can do to "make" someone else NOT be abusive. If they're going to be gaslighting and whatnot, then it's not so much what Partner A does or doesn't say or do to make them behave like that. It's really all about what's inside Partner B's mind and heart. BUT Partner A can learn to see it...and recognize that it's not them...and learn to believe in their own judgement and their own memory. 

In all three examples--twisting things, promises not kept, or hearing things not said--all three could be mistakes that humans could make. If Partner A said something like "Oh you twisted what I meant" or "Oh I remember you agreed to do that" or "I don't honestly remember saying that" ... a respectful partner could say "Huh...I must have made a mistake, misremembered, or heard wrong...what DID you mean?" Right? But that's assuming they're USUALLY respectful. If they're not...and mind games are employed...then it's gaslighting.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> 3. “You’re twisting things.” The intent is to avoid consequences when you call them out on their unacceptable behavior, such as if they made a joke at your expense, they had good intent and you are twisting it to call them out on it.
> 
> 7. "You are just overthinking it." The intent is to get you to stop questioning (shut you down) and stop thinking about the situation--in others words, to make you stop exerting the mental energy to better the situation.
> 
> 9. "I think you need help." The intent is to make you check yourself before you speak. Whatever thoughts you have, and whatever perceptions you have, are crazy and you better keep them secret or others will know.


Yes, those ring true. The tough part is that your spouse knows you well enough to pick things that do have some basis, even though irrelevant. I think most anyone here on TAM likely scores highly on the "over thinking' ranking, because if we weren't thinking about it, a lot, we wouldn't be here, doing the research. We'd find an "answer" and that's that. 

The "I think you need help" is the tough one because it's always so carefully delivered, without an emphasis on "you" that would make it seem defensive. It's truly amazing how someone who has mastered the art of being defensive at all times, somehow manages to sound like they're truly trying to help when it's to their strategic advantage. Deflecting the conversation away from them.

Of course I need help. I need help getting through what's been laid down in front of me for all these years. And for other things too. TAM will never allow me to forget that.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Or the classic change of subject - um, Lets have sex.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> When I was being gaslit in my first marriage, I had no idea. After years of this kind of treatment, I honestly did feel crazy and second-guessed pretty much every thought I had, because I had years of conditioning to not trust my own perception. So here are some common things that gaslighters say and why they say them:
> 
> 1. "You’re too sensitive (or emotional)." The intent is to shift attention away from their unacceptable behavior by making you second guess whether you responded appropriately or went overboard.
> 
> ...


 And I can add to that list:

“You don’t know how to take a joke.”

“I was KIDDING about that. You take everything to heart.”

“Wow, are you serious??? I don’t want to fight right now.” (Any concern I have said in normal tone of voice is considered “fighting”.)


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I heard "you're so sensitive" a lot which was usually after he said something offensive or after he insulted me. I genuinely don't have a good memory for dates but it is otherwise good and my ex used to try and get me doubt ALL recollections about what I promised to do (usually including stuff I NEVER agreed to) and what he said (he never said that thing that he definitely said) were all called into doubt because I can't remember the date of the last time I got my oil changed (that's what the little sticker is for).


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I think recognizing this behavior though might have to be tempered by the fact that you are actually sometimes wrong, and make mistakes, and that downticks in relationships aren't always ALL the other person gaslighting you. It's just that it is easy to recognize the behavior after a few rides on the merrigoround.


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Once when I brought up his poor boundaries with his 1st wife (daughter's mother) I was accused to hating his daughter. Then of course the conversation was supposed to shift away from his poor boundaries to how I didn't hate his daughter.


Oh my God I didn't even recognize this. When I had been going out with my XBF for about 4 months he used to give his ex rides all over town while she was visiting her son, in the car with us, and then hang out us all together and it drove me crazy but whenever I said I felt he had really poor boundaries and it wasn't his or our responsibility to take care of her, I got accused of not caring about his son. I held it together in front of him, but I felt like he was setting up really unhealthy boundaries for his son too. He had the "what's your problem? You don't want him to spend time with his mom?" and then the eye rolling if I objected to him privately. I thought it felt hurtful but I didn't want to make his son's life complicated and could tell I'd be the bad guy, so I just sucked it up until she moved further away to be near her mom.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Affaircare, is _Are Dee a_ gaslighter?
What do you think?

We value your opinion.


_King Brian-_


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I remember seeing the original 1944 film that the word comes from. 

And in the film, the gas-lighter very consciously and deliberately knows what he's doing and why. In real life, it's not always like that. But either way, if we're talking about a close intimate partner relationship, I don't think it's appropriate to try to come up with a neat verbal riposte. Either the person is deliberately abusive, or seriously mentally disordered. It's time to be thinking about ending the relationship, getting out safely. 

It's different if it's a boss or colleague. There is a very good book (in my opinion) called "When I say no I feel guilty" by M Smith, about handling verbally manipulative people, and it's aimed more at the level of say shop assistants, neighbours, or more distant family members, not one's closest partner.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I think the following is quite a careful analysis of someone who gaslights consciously and professionally:









Why Can't People Hear What Jordan Peterson Is Actually Saying?


A British broadcaster doggedly tried to put words into the academic’s mouth.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I had to literally memorize every conversation and pay close attention to basically everything going on. That way when he came at me with his new version of events I could repeat, verbatim, exact conversations and events. It was the only way I had to fight back.

BF tells me I have an amazing memory.


----------



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Not said:


> I had to literally memorize every conversation and pay close attention to basically everything going on. That way when he came at me with his new version of events I could repeat, verbatim, exact conversations and events. It was the only way I had to fight back.
> 
> BF tells me I have an amazing memory.


I damn near took notes. It got so bad I was googling dementia.
I have an excellent memory. 😂


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> I damn near took notes. It got so bad I was googling dementia.
> I have an excellent memory. 😂


XBF had me thinking I had serious memory issues. I admit I am absent minded sometimes and mislay my phone and keys and stuff but I distinctly remember saying "you promise me you're not going to gamble again?" when we first got into a relationship and he said "I promise." 3 years later "I never actually promised I just said I wasn't going to do it probably." He thought because I mislay my phone I cannot possibly remember promises he made to me.


----------



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

joannacroc said:


> XBF had me thinking I had serious memory issues. I admit I am absent minded sometimes and mislay my phone and keys and stuff but I distinctly remember saying "you promise me you're not going to gamble again?" when we first got into a relationship and he said "I promise." 3 years later "I never actually promised I just said I wasn't going to do it probably." He thought because I mislay my phone I cannot possibly remember promises he made to me.


It’s unreal. 😂


----------



## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

My mother was the queen of gas lighting. I didn’t know what it was called when I was a child, but I did understand that she had a messed up sense of reality. As a result, I have no tolerance for it now. The moment someone tries to use one of these strategies with me it‘s over.


----------



## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Well! That sure explains a lot!!


QuietRiot said:


> And I can add to that list:
> 
> “You don’t know how to take a joke.”
> 
> ...


Or... "This conversation is stalemate. There is nothing left to talk about"

This after years of the SAME problem! Me trying to resolve it and him trying to not take responsibility in any of it.


----------



## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> When I was being gaslit in my first marriage, I had no idea. After years of this kind of treatment, I honestly did feel crazy and second-guessed pretty much every thought I had, because I had years of conditioning to not trust my own perception. So here are some common things that gaslighters say and why they say them:



Oh my life right here, in a nut shell. Sadly my kids take part in this too. Because it was taught to them!
I never saw this before, but once I began to like me, even in a small measure, I began to see these things.
I know the more I love me, the more I will recognize these issues and I won't be apart of them!!!! 
Somebody else's problem does not need to be my problem.


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

minimalME said:


> But then in the book, _Why Men Love *****es_, there's an entire chapter about playing dumb?


I call it playing obtuse and it can be a useful tool in slowing down the aggressor.

What they try to do is make vague remarks about something. If you come out and say / clarify what they are talking about, they will then say, "Well, you said it, I didn't."

I've learned that when someone is vague about something, leave it on them to make it clear what they are talking or just let the conversation die. You may find that that person will raise fewer vague issues.


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

joannacroc said:


> Oh my God I didn't even recognize this. When I had been going out with my XBF for about 4 months he used to give his ex rides all over town while she was visiting her son, in the car with us, and then hang out us all together and it drove me crazy but whenever I said I felt he had really poor boundaries and it wasn't his or our responsibility to take care of her, I got accused of not caring about his son. I held it together in front of him, but I felt like he was setting up really unhealthy boundaries for his son too. He had the "what's your problem? You don't want him to spend time with his mom?" and then the eye rolling if I objected to him privately. I thought it felt hurtful but I didn't want to make his son's life complicated and could tell I'd be the bad guy, so I just sucked it up until she moved further away to be near her mom.


I used to be intimidated by that all or nothing solution. Now I just shrug my shoulders and say. "Do as you please." 

I never thought good communication skills and tactics could be so powerful. But after going to a couple of assertiveness training courses I noticed that a large part of it is about what to say (and do) when.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> And I can add to that list:
> 
> “You don’t know how to take a joke.”
> 
> ...



Ha ha...my ex was a schroedinger's douchebag type. He'd decide if he was joking based on the reaction...it allowed him to keep telling himself he was a nice guy.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

joannacroc said:


> Oh my God I didn't even recognize this. When I had been going out with my XBF for about 4 months he used to give his ex rides all over town while she was visiting her son, in the car with us, and then hang out us all together and it drove me crazy but whenever I said I felt he had really poor boundaries and it wasn't his or our responsibility to take care of her, I got accused of not caring about his son. I held it together in front of him, but I felt like he was setting up really unhealthy boundaries for his son too. He had the "what's your problem? You don't want him to spend time with his mom?" and then the eye rolling if I objected to him privately. I thought it felt hurtful but I didn't want to make his son's life complicated and could tell I'd be the bad guy, so I just sucked it up until she moved further away to be near her mom.


Glad he's your ex. It's crazy making isn't it?

Mine used to get season tickets for football season to a large university out here. He went with his friend and would tailgate with his ex and her family.

Every ****ing week for the whole college season this would be a sore spot because I didn't like his boundaries in general. Of course I was accused of wanting him to hate them.

I just wanted better boundaries, but since he was a conflict avoidant coward he eventually chose the path of least resistance for himself and stopped going, then resented me for it.

Never did he ask me like an adult what I would be comfortable with. If he had maybe we could've worked something out. It was never about the football....my bf is a die hard fan of a particular NFL team and he watches every game with his brother. It's never been an issue to me because it's not a boundary issue.

I remember a father's day that ex made plans to spend at his ex's, because his snotty grown daughter couldn't be bothered to come see him 10 minutes away. Of course when I brought it up I was accused of not wanting him to see his daughter.

Whatever....he's now free to kiss anyone's ass he likes 😅


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Ha ha...my ex was a schroedinger's douchebag type. He'd decide if he was joking based on the reaction...it allowed him to keep telling himself he was a nice guy.


Yes things that are obvious insults can be turned into “jokes”. 

I need to do some research on this type of behavior, is it just to avoid consequences? Is it passive aggressive? Denial? 

I didn’t know I’d been gaslighted until this last year. I just chalked it up to him being an ass hole. The more you know... ding. 💫


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My husband didn’t do very much of that (he did lots of other stuff) but I was in a long relationship with a man who did all those things regularly. I have always had an excellent memory and could repeat exactly what he said and when he said it and what the circumstances were but he still denied it and tried to turn it back on me.

Occasionally, he would say that maybe there was a misunderstanding but the rest of the time I was definitely the problem as far as he was concerned. He was determined to have everything his way all the time. No compromising. The whole thing was ridiculous and I finally ended it. Never again.


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

Openminded said:


> My husband didn’t do very much of that (he did lots of other stuff) but I was in a long relationship with a man who did all those things regularly. *I have always had an excellent memory and could repeat exactly *what he said and when he said it and what the circumstances were but he still denied it and tried to turn it back on me.
> 
> Occasionally, he would say that maybe there was a misunderstanding but the rest of the time I was definitely the problem as far as he was concerned. He was determined to have everything his way all the time. No compromising. The whole thing was ridiculous and I finally ended it. Never again.


I bet he tried to make out that having a memory is an evil thing.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

NTA said:


> I bet he tried to make out that having a memory is an evil thing.


He certainly didn’t view a good memory as a positive.


----------



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

OMG, I've heard nearly all of those from both my XH (H at the time) and my mother. Looking back, it's so clear, but it's different when you're immersed in a situation.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Thank you for such a great post, AC! I didn't even know what gaslighting was. I just know that I felt crazy and had no faith in my own perceptions or memory. 

I recognized a lot of these tactics from my FOO and marriage. It's made me much less tolerant and tactful, I think trying to be too diplomatic handling people who do this crap only encourages them in their BS. The older I get, the more peace I crave and I'm ruthless in cutting out anyone who threatens that.



joannacroc said:


> I heard "you're so sensitive" a lot which was usually after he said something offensive or after he insulted me. I genuinely don't have a good memory for dates but it is otherwise good and my ex used to try and get me doubt ALL recollections about what I promised to do (usually including stuff I NEVER agreed to) and what he said (he never said that thing that he definitely said) were all called into doubt because I can't remember the date of the last time I got my oil changed (that's what the little sticker is for).


This was the one I heard the most. One incident I recalled was, telling my ex after watching a particularly crude comedy skit on TV how disgusting and offensive I found it. At the time, I was suspicious it was a passive-aggressive snipe at me, but I wasn't sure, he played innocent. The skit was about "old *****", and how they could never compete with younger women. Btw, my ex's AP was 19 when they started. 



Laurentium said:


> I remember seeing the original 1944 film that the word comes from.
> 
> And in the film, the gas-lighter very consciously and deliberately knows what he's doing and why. In real life, it's not always like that. But either way, if we're talking about a close intimate partner relationship, I don't think it's appropriate to try to come up with a neat verbal riposte. Either the person is deliberately abusive, or seriously mentally disordered. It's time to be thinking about ending the relationship, getting out safely.
> 
> It's different if it's a boss or colleague. There is a very good book (in my opinion) called "When I say no I feel guilty" by M Smith, about handling verbally manipulative people, and it's aimed more at the level of say shop assistants, neighbours, or more distant family members, not one's closest partner.


I think you can tell it's deliberate when the perpetrator looks at you closely to gauge your reaction during the "session". Thinking back, I always thought he looked at me weirdly whenever he tried to get one over on me. 



Not said:


> I had to literally memorize every conversation and pay close attention to basically everything going on. That way when he came at me with his new version of events I could repeat, verbatim, exact conversations and events. It was the only way I had to fight back.
> 
> BF tells me I have an amazing memory.


Girl, I know the feeling. It gets old, fast, doesn't it? I've purposely taken to scrubbing my mind clean of things I don't GAF about, b/c it just leads to rehashing and overthinking. 


lifeistooshort said:


> Ha ha...my ex was a schroedinger's douchebag type. He'd decide if he was joking based on the reaction...it allowed him to keep telling himself he was a nice guy.


Most annoying thing ever! Nice guy, my ass. I don't know why people bother to pretend any different, at the end of the day, they know exactly what they are and did.



QuietRiot said:


> Yes things that are obvious insults can be turned into “jokes”.
> 
> I need to do some research on this type of behavior, is it just to avoid consequences? Is it passive aggressive? Denial?
> 
> I didn’t know I’d been gaslighted until this last year. I just chalked it up to him being an ass hole. The more you know... ding. 💫


Isn't conflict avoidance basically passive aggression to avoid consequences?

I have no stomach for any of that BS anymore and developed a super low tolerance for anything that smells of passive aggression or conflict avoidance. It saves a lot of time and grief in the long-run, even if it does ruffle a few feathers.

My bf is used to me now, but he told me I'm more direct than people expect women to be, especially in the South, so I can be offputting to some people. I'm just fine with that if it weeds out this crap.


----------



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Openminded said:


> My husband didn’t do very much of that (he did lots of other stuff) but I was in a long relationship with a man who did all those things regularly. I have always had an excellent memory and could repeat exactly what he said and when he said it and what the circumstances were but he still denied it and tried to turn it back on me.
> 
> Occasionally, he would say that maybe there was a misunderstanding but the rest of the time I was definitely the problem as far as he was concerned. He was determined to have everything his way all the time. No compromising. The whole thing was ridiculous and I finally ended it. Never again.


My XH was this way too. Like you, I could repeat verbatim what was said in a conversation along with details like what we were wearing, where we were standing. He denied, denied, denied, and would tell me that memories change over time, and people don't remember as correctly as they think they do. In the next breath, he'd say that he has photographic memory. At one point, he said that I needed to go see a psychologist because I like to keep a clean house! I was also the problem in the marriage, as well as within my immediate family. Gaslighting happens frequently there, unfortunately!


----------



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

So, I'm reading a book ATM called "But They're Your Family" by Dr. Sherrie Campbell, and one thing that I read that really struck me was this (this isn't verbatim from the book): if the people who are gaslighting/bullying/generally being a douche can talk their way out of any blame or wrongdoing, they know exactly what they're doing and how they're hurting you. They just don't care.

For years, I've been telling myself (my sibling has said this too) that our folks care, and they don't realize how they come across despite being told, and asking them to please stop/back off multiple times. After reading the above thought in Dr. Campbell's book though, I realize that all this time, they just want the power card, and that they truly don't give a damn about how they make a person feel.


----------



## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> I honestly did feel crazy and second-guessed pretty much every thought I had, because I had years of conditioning to not trust my own perception.


How did you press pass this? (I have been outside gardening, thinking about this sentence. My favorite place to think  Hello Spring!)

I have no idea how to discern my own thoughts and trust them, anymore. I have a very difficult time trusting my own perception. Thats such spot on way of saying it!!


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

All of those are bad and I’m happy I never say or hear them. I don’t have time for that kind of crap in my life and neither does the Mrs.


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I grew up with all of this. My mom. It was all perfectly normal and I was doing it too when I was young. I look back on when I was doing it and I remember feeling that I couldn't trust or believe anything anyone said because I really believed everyone was doing it. Just making stuff up and changing the narrative to suit whatever the situation required. It wasn't until I was older, married and moved across the country that I realized how messed up I was. Problem is I married a male version of my mother and had to deal with it all over again as I got this all sorted out in my own head and made changes in my own behavior. I'm now like TX and have an extremely thin tolerance for any of this and will point it out when I see it happening and boy does it get me fired up, which is something I still need to learn to reign in.

I fully believe my mom has some sort of psychiatric condition, don't know what it is but whatever it is people pick up on it immediately when they meet her. Something is just off. My ExH has some serious issues as well. I don't talk about it, I don't want it and I have no interest in proving they have such and such wrong with them. Not my circus. I'm happy with being away from it all, for the first time in my entire life.


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

> which is something I still need to learn to reign in.


Just baiting you is part of the fun.


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

NTA said:


> Just baiting you is part of the fun.


Agree. With my ex I believe he felt superior, it gave him pleasure to try and make me look and feel like a fool. With my mom I don't know. She doesn't target specific people, it's just how she lives in general.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

SunCMars said:


> Affaircare, is _Are Dee a_ gaslighter?
> What do you think?
> 
> We value your opinion.
> ...


My friend, 

I'm sorry it took so long to reply to this, but I actually gave this thought rather than just saying "Pffffft" and passing it by with an eyeroll. 

If _Are Dee_ is gaslighting anyone, he is gaslighting himself.
While there is life, there is hope. 
At this time there is plenty of life left in the old soldier
Even though he feels the ravages of wars long past
And the incoming low pressure systems cause aches that didn't previously exist.

There is life, and thus there is hope
And yet it seems to me as if Are Dee gaslights himself
Into believing he's "too this" or "too that" 
To make any move in changing what hurts him.

_Are Dee_ tells himself he is too sensitive
Or that he twists things 
Or that he made a promise so he can't move
Or that this is why no one likes him
etc.

See? The only gaslight I see is to the main man. 
I think there's more of Red Dog in him than he knows.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> My friend,
> 
> I'm sorry it took so long to reply to this, but I actually gave this thought rather than just saying "Pffffft" and passing it by with an eyeroll.
> 
> ...


Friend, too, two,

_*Red Dog*_ is key....

_'Arrears Played Forward'_ leads one to the original source.

_Are Dee _is another branch on the tree. _The Tree _itself, will someday be 'more' fully revealed.

As always, thank you for indulging my incessant imagination.

Straight talk, no gaslighting, would severely cripple _The Typist. _

He is soft, not a _Martian_. He so loves the female gender. Hence, our closeting him. _King Brian_, purposely releases the man to embarrass us and to tweak us. He is that imp, at times.

_Lilith_ is another issue..
Umm.
She is so....ready.

_(?)-_


----------



## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

oh boy, I have a "gaslighting" story that will knock your socks off...

so, several years ago, I guess the term first started "making the rounds" on relationship boards and what not (not sure). But I had certainly never heard of it - or the movie - at that point. It was way before my time

for a couple days straight, I would come home from work, and get grilled _*literally*_ as soon as I got in the door, before I could even put my laptop bag down or take my shoes off.

It would be something each day I wasn't expecting... one day, she started accusing me of coming home a 1/2 hour later than expected because I must have gotten drinks with another woman. next night I was late because I was "intentionally avoiding" her. 
the next day, when I wasn't late, I "_seemed distant_" when she called my office, so I must have had another woman in there...

When I'd deny my XW's allegation each day she'd scream "STOP GASLIGHTING ME"

after the third time, I was like "_WTF does that mean? what are you even talking about?_"

She told me about the movie and said I was "gaslighting" her. 

The next night I came home around 7:30. 

Expecting trouble by this point, I had told her ahead of time I had to work a little late that day, but called her twice to talk and see how her day was going in hopes that would avoid trouble. When I got home, I saw the lights were all off, and she and our daughter were asleep already (WAY earlier than usual). on the coffee table by the TV, the DVD case for the movie "_Gaslighting_" was sitting open, and the disk itself was sitting in the open tray of the DVD player...

_SHE WAS GASLIGHTING ME WITH THE MOVIE GASLIGHTING!!!_


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TomNebraska said:


> ... _SHE WAS GASLIGHTING ME WITH THE MOVIE GASLIGHTING!!! _


Nah! You're just too sensitive and can't take a joke!


----------



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> Nah! You're just too sensitive and can't take a joke!


😂


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

TomNebraska said:


> oh boy, I have a "gaslighting" story that will knock your socks off...
> 
> so, several years ago, I guess the term first started "making the rounds" on relationship boards and what not (not sure). But I had certainly never heard of it - or the movie - at that point. It was way before my time
> 
> ...


I think you win this thread!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TomNebraska said:


> oh boy, I have a "gaslighting" story that will knock your socks off...
> 
> so, several years ago, I guess the term first started "making the rounds" on relationship boards and what not (not sure). But I had certainly never heard of it - or the movie - at that point. It was way before my time
> 
> ...


Should have bought her some Nutter Butters to really gaslight her. What a crazy biotch!


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I see your gaslighting story and raise you with my gaslighting VIDEO story. 

When I was married to my exH, he was quite the ticket. He was diagnosed bipolar rapid cycling and borderline personality disorder, and I didn't realize it at the time, but he was quite abusive. Hey I was young and he never balled up his fist and hit me, so what do I know (shrug)?

Anyway, toward the end of our marriage, he was pretty flirty with this one assistant manager of one of our clients (she later turned out to be the Wistress). I was getting suspicious, but of course he explained away all my suspicions, told me I was nuts and paranoid... you know, typical gaslighting. 

So one weekend he said he had to do an annual service, and those usually do take a couple days, so he disappears and I didn't think anything of it. Until about a week later, I get a package in the mail from a REALLY fancy hotel in the area (I mean, $300/plate for dinner at the hotel restaurant fancy), and inside is lingerie and a note: "Mrs. _, you left this in your room when you were here to visit." Now, LET ME TELL YOU, I had never set foot in that fancy hotel as a guest (but we did do computer work for them so they knew me). So I went into stealth mode. I hid the package and didn't say anything; I drove up to the hotel; and I asked to check the register. Sure enough! It said Mr. and Mrs. _ (our last name) on that weekend he had disappeared. WELL! I knew the Director of Security at this fancy hotel so I called in a favor and got the security tape of the parking lot. They arrived Friday night all lovey dovey and did not leave until Sunday morning...again all lovely dovey in the parking lot. I asked for a copy of the security tape--that was my favor--because the Director knew me, knew the exH, and knew exH was cheating on me. 

But wait...there's more! This is the jaw-dropping part!

So I get home, and I wait for exH to get home...and I show him the lingerie and the tape. Didn't say anything--just SHOWED IT TO HIM. Know what he said (I couldn't make this up)? "How did you do that?"
I said: "Do what?" He said: "Doctor the video tape to make it look like I'm cheating on you. I didn't know you knew how to do that." 










With lingerie IN MY HAND and a video tape of him taking another woman into a hotel Friday night and coming out Sunday morning...HE TRIED TO GASLIGHT ME!!!

Swear to God! But that was also what it took for me to realize that he'd been slowly and purposefully trying to make me doubt myself all along. I had the stuff IN MY HAND and he tried to tell me I didn't! Thankfully, that was the beginning of the end, because I couldn't be fooled anymore. I knew what I knew. After that, he ran off with her and didn't tell anyone he was leaving--just disappeared for a while. We found him eventually but by then we were done.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TomNebraska said:


> oh boy, I have a "gaslighting" story that will knock your socks off...
> 
> so, several years ago, I guess the term first started "making the rounds" on relationship boards and what not (not sure). But I had certainly never heard of it - or the movie - at that point. It was way before my time
> 
> ...


She sounds like a terrorist. Did she do some friendly water boarding, 2 am interrogations to go along with her gaslighting? Good job for making it out alive on that one!


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> I see your gaslighting story and raise you with my gaslighting VIDEO story.
> 
> When I was married to my exH, he was quite the ticket. He was diagnosed bipolar rapid cycling and borderline personality disorder, and I didn't realize it at the time, but he was quite abusive. Hey I was young and he never balled up his fist and hit me, so what do I know (shrug)?
> 
> ...


And my sincerest congratulations for not setting all his clothes on fire, while he was wearing them. You have nerves of steel. 😂


----------



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> I see your gaslighting story and raise you with my gaslighting VIDEO story.
> 
> When I was married to my exH, he was quite the ticket. He was diagnosed bipolar rapid cycling and borderline personality disorder, and I didn't realize it at the time, but he was quite abusive. Hey I was young and he never balled up his fist and hit me, so what do I know (shrug)?
> 
> ...


😳


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> I see your gaslighting story and raise you with my gaslighting VIDEO story.
> 
> When I was married to my exH, he was quite the ticket. He was diagnosed bipolar rapid cycling and borderline personality disorder, and I didn't realize it at the time, but he was quite abusive. Hey I was young and he never balled up his fist and hit me, so what do I know (shrug)?
> 
> ...


AC that is the most amazing story and you win the hand!

A ❤ to all on this thread who have gotten themselves out of these situations and moved on to live better!


----------



## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> ...
> 
> With lingerie IN MY HAND and a video tape of him taking another woman into a hotel Friday night and coming out Sunday morning...HE TRIED TO GASLIGHT ME!!!
> 
> Swear to God! But that was also what it took for me to realize that he'd been slowly and purposefully trying to make me doubt myself all along. I had the stuff IN MY HAND and he tried to tell me I didn't! Thankfully, that was the beginning of the end, because I couldn't be fooled anymore. I knew what I knew. After that, he ran off with her and didn't tell anyone he was leaving--just disappeared for a while. We found him eventually but by then we were done.


It really is insane isn't it?

If you're "normal," it's shocking how malleable the truth is for some people. 

It's bizarre, but as I've gotten older and seen how government intelligence agencies & propaganda operate, with a mantra along the lines of "the truth is whatever we can convince the population is true" it's almost like some of this stuff is human nature. the manipulative behavior that goes on in abusive relationships is a microcosm of what happens in governments.

I'm so curious how some people get that total lack of any concern to lying... is it a mix of genetics and experience? Or is an abusive childhood enough to set them on that sort of path?


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> So I get home, and I wait for exH to get home...and I show him the lingerie and the tape. Didn't say anything--just SHOWED IT TO HIM. Know what he said (I couldn't make this up)? "How did you do that?"
> I said: "Do what?" He said: "Doctor the video tape to make it look like I'm cheating on you."


That is quite a story. And just think, for a moment. YOU would KNOW absolutely for certain whether you faked it or not. And he should _know_ you know that. Like, he has NO chance of fooling you about that, and if he's sane, he knows that. Ponder the implications.....


----------



## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> That is quite a story. And just think, for a moment. YOU would KNOW absolutely for certain whether you faked it or not. And he should _know_ you know that. Like, he has NO chance of fooling you about that, and if he's sane, he knows that. Ponder the implications.....


That's where the abuse (mental, emotional, or physical) comes in. They need to force you to accept the lie, but since this is an ongoing relationship, they need you to keep trusting them. 

It's pretty much an impossible task... unless they have a mark that they can intimidate through one of those forms of abuse. 

Still doesn't prevent them from trying! They don't care; they are total (or almost total) sociopaths. 

One odd thing that I couldn't figure out: occasionally my XW would break down and admit her intent (e.g. "I just don't like it when you see friends or your family because I'm afraid you like them better than me,") or admit she was out-of-line and she knew I had done nothing wrong. 

she would (of course) later deny saying these things, but I couldn't figure out if these were just moments of weakness, where I had fought and won the argument so she gave up trying for a moment, or if they were just part of the overall disinformation/gaslighting strategy.


----------

