# Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups; Is it About Faith or Race?

This was kind of unexpected for me. I grew up in a very Catholic family in the Northeast where you stayed with your husband even if he was abusive. I've rejected religion because of that (and other reasons).

I know that many people here are from the South. What do you think of this?


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

ntamph said:


> Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups; Is it About Faith or Race?
> 
> This was kind of unexpected for me. I grew up in a very Catholic family in the Northeast where you stayed with your husband even if he was abusive. I've rejected religion because of that (and other reasons).
> 
> I know that many people here are from the South. What do you think of this?


Reading the article it says that evangelical protestants are more likely to break up than others. It makes sense from the standpoint that they are likely to be the least tolerant of of the kind of things that cause marriages to break of any group. Things like infidelity, gambling, drinking come to mind. The main blame is put on the modern welfare state where women can rely on the taxpayer to support them rather than having to rely on a husband.

I was shocked by the figures on black families coming out of DC and Milwaukee. 7% of black kids between 15 and 18 years of age are in intact two-parent families in Milwaukee, 9% in DC. Yikes!


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Probably because they're the last groups to still have families at all. In NYC for instance, something like 65% of all children are born to single mothers.


----------



## birthdaysex (Feb 17, 2014)

ntamph said:


> Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups; Is it About Faith or Race?
> 
> This was kind of unexpected for me. I grew up in a very Catholic family in the Northeast where you stayed with your husband even if he was abusive. I've rejected religion because of that (and other reasons).
> 
> I know that many people here are from the South. What do you think of this?


I have Northern and Southern roots. My father's family is Catholic and my mother's family is Southern Baptist. Both of my maternal grandmothers permanently separated without divorcing and my parents did the same. 

I think this is crazy but I understand. However the It is not the choice I would make. I don't reject religion because of their choices.


----------



## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> 7% of black kids between 15 and 18 years of age are in intact two-parent families in Milwaukee, 9% in DC. Yikes!



What a truly scary situation, with so few relationships standing the test of time what chance do this new generation stand of doing better. 

Without any positive role models how will they have learned to work at a relationship and not to run at the first sign of trouble?

Bringing up a child (children) is hard enough when there are two of you to carry the work load so why are so many people seemingly choosing to go it alone?


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I think it just shows that black, white, highly religious, atheist whatever shet happens.

Whatever their race, creed or religion (or lack of) people eff up.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wiltshireman said:


> What a truly scary situation, with so few relationships standing the test of time what chance do this new generation stand of doing better.
> 
> Without any positive role models how will they have learned to work at a relationship and not to run at the first sign of trouble?
> 
> Bringing up a child (children) is hard enough when there are two of you to carry the work load so why are so many people seemingly choosing to go it alone?


A lot of men are not responsible. The woman gets pregnant and he leaves.

And if she makes more money than he does, she might find it easier just to do it all herself. She has her freedom that way.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> I think it just shows that black, white, highly religious, atheist whatever shet happens.
> 
> Whatever their race, creed or religion (or lack of) people eff up.


I love your signature, Wysh. And yes, everybody has problems.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sometimes I think Christians may be better at "Covering up" because they need to be "that example" before others..or they vow to stay in unhappy marriages feeling this is pleasing God and /or feeling like more of a failure -facing the judgement , rumors of their community... 

Whether sitting in the church pew or not...if a couple lacks the communication skills to unearth their issues and be determined , come hell or high water ...to work together to get back to "emotional intimacy"...and harmony...what is a marriage really worth -but going through the motions...

Yes, it can happen to anyone... This study saying it has the highest rate of family break ups.... could be that because marriage is being frowned on more & more ...

The "Unmarried" break ups (with family) are not being recorded, they just move in & out...no divorce statistics... so it would make sense if now it appears the Breakups are coming from one of the largest groups that still believe in getting married...


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Non religious people have children out of wedlock and may or may not live together. When they break up, that doesn't count as a D or "family break-up". So the statistics on this are quite skewed!

Non religious people don't get married as young or as readily as religious people. Have you heard the expression "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"


----------



## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

I think "Blonde" has a point about the figures being skewed by those that never marry and "jld" talks about walk away dads but in both these cases the women has chosen to have a child (children) outside of a LTR.

Can this be a better outcome for the child or society than the majority being born to/ raised in a stable two parent household?

Do TAM readers think there is a difference in outcome between "Marriages" and other forms of "LTR"?


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Non religious people have children out of wedlock and may or may not live together. When they break up, that doesn't count as a D or "family break-up". So the statistics on this are quite skewed!
> 
> Non religious people don't get married as young or as readily as religious people. Have you heard the expression "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"


Oh?

Are you sure about this, it seems a rather sweeping statement?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Kids dont care if their parents are married or not. They care if mom and dad are available, and make them feel loved and safe.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> Oh?
> 
> Are you sure about this, it seems a rather sweeping statement?


Just read recently that the #1 reason given by HS students who are sexually abstinent is religious beliefs/morals.

Of course there can be exceptions. There may be some non religious people who remain virgins and marry at < 22.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I started out in an evangelical Protestant church. I'm still Protestant but more of a reformer. When I was in the previous church, anything to do with sexual sins, porn, adultery, etc. was always directed at men. They basically taught that women didn't screw up in the sexual arena, just men.

This left women completely unprepared when temptation came knocking. So many people bought into that crap. I saw marriages dissolved left and right. 
I have seen several stories where a WW truly did not believe adultery was something she even needed to guard against. There they were, sitting in the wreckage of what used to be their family, wondering what the hell happened.

When people know what they are capable of, they can get some healthy boundaries to prevent infidelity. Just one aspect I know is still going on. I'm sure the other factors mentioned are part of it too.

They also teach that Christian men don't get mad or raise their voice
It's a recipe for disaster when women are taught not to protect themselves sexually and their husbands can't get mad or yell about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Just read recently that the #1 reason given by HS students who are sexually abstinent is religious beliefs.
> 
> Of course there can be exceptions. There may be some non religious people who remain virgins and marry at < 22.


It's just that reading through the article I could see no mention of married status being mentioned.

Studies have shown that divorce rates for deeply religious, mildly religious and agnostic/atheist marriages are similar.

There is a slight bias towards a higher divorce rate amongst deeply religious people.
Could it be because deeply religious people are less likely to forgive a slight on their marriage?
Most of these studies don't seem to give a reason for the divorces.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> There is a slight bias towards a higher divorce rate amongst deeply religious people.
> Could it be because deeply religious people are less likely to forgive a slight on their marriage?


No, it's because deeply religious people were abstinent and horny and got married very young because the chemistry was there.

Then the honeymoon is over...


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Blonde said:


> No, it's because deeply religious people were abstinent and horny and got married very young because the chemistry was there.
> 
> Then the honeymoon is over...


Hadn't looked at it from that angle.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Kids dont care if their parents are married or not. They care if mom and dad are available, and make them feel loved and safe.


I understand where you are coming from but I DO think kids care if mom and dad ARE married and committed to each other. Children DO want to see their parents in love with each other. A loving unit is the safest place for a child to be in.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Blonde said:


> No, it's because deeply religious people were abstinent and horny and got married very young because the chemistry was there.
> 
> Then the honeymoon is over...


I feel this statement is over generalizing....


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

over20 said:


> I feel this statement is over generalizing....


Can you see how these M would contribute to a higher D rate in the Bible Belt?

In the liberal northeast and west coast, they will have chemistry, cohabitate, produce offspring, break up when the infatuation fades, and never make it into "divorce statistics"/family break up.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I started out in an evangelical Protestant church. I'm still Protestant but more of a reformer. When I was in the previous church, anything to do with sexual sins, porn, adultery, etc. was always directed at men. They basically taught that women didn't screw up in the sexual arena, just men.
> 
> This left women completely unprepared when temptation came knocking. So many people bought into that crap. I saw marriages dissolved left and right.
> I have seen several stories where a WW truly did not believe adultery was something she even needed to guard against. There they were, sitting in the wreckage of what used to be their family, wondering what the hell happened.
> ...


Oh, Conan, you are so right. And I worry about people who say attraction is harmless . . . 

Either they are defining it differently than I am, or they are just much stronger people.

And you right on that men should get mad. Marriages need transparency and they need consequences when bad behavior happens.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

So, I looked at the article you linked and followed a link to the source cited

Here is their definition:

The Index of Family Belonging is determined by the fraction of children aged 15 to 17 in a given area who live with both their biological parents, who *have been marriedsince before or around the time of their birth.*​
Look at the birthrates. Notice anything @ the Bible Belt?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> So, I looked at the article you linked and followed a link to the source cited
> 
> Here is their definition:
> 
> ...


Yeah, a higher birth rate.

Which doesn't seem particularly relevant since the Family Belonging Index is a percentage, which ought to come out in the wash unless having more children increases your likelihood of divorce.

Why is the teen birthrate so high in the south and why does it correlate so well with the Bible Belt? I'm sure there's a very interesting and very hard to disentangle explanation. 
Are most of those teens married when they have children or are these children out of wedlock? Children born out of wedlock *do* make it into this index - they make it into the fraction whose parents were not married at or very near their birth date. These numbers don't come from divorce statistics, they come from comparing birth records with marriage records, as is explained in the auxiliary article on fixing the measurement bias footnoted in the article.

What's much more interesting in the original source is the breakdown by race. Want to have your two biological parents living in the same house by the time your 16? Have the foresight to be born Asian.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, a higher birth rate.
> 
> Which doesn't seem particularly relevant since the Family Belonging Index is a percentage, which ought to come out in the wash unless having more children increases your likelihood of divorce.
> 
> What's much more interesting in the original source is the breakdown by race. Want to have your two biological parents living in the same house by the time your 16? Have the foresight to be born Asian.


Or live the way the Asians do -- with commitment.

Americans are too focused on romantic love. Love can come over time, with each person fulfilling their responsibilities.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Can you see how these M would contribute to a higher D rate in the Bible Belt?
> 
> In the liberal northeast and west coast, they will have chemistry, cohabitate, produce offspring, break up when the infatuation fades, and never make it into "divorce statistics"/family break up.


No, not the way the data is collected for this statistic, which is not derived from divorce data.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I recently read an article that the same area was the highest in uploading amateur porn.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Cletus,

Hadn't looked at the link when I made my first reply.

The divorce rate is higher in the Bible Belt, but as you observed, those stats aren't the basis of OP article.


----------



## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Not surprised, since the wife has become more of an evangelical, it certainly has put a severe strain on our marriage.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Cletus,
> 
> Hadn't looked at the link when I made my first reply.
> 
> The divorce rate is higher in the Bible Belt, but as you observed, those stats aren't the basis of OP article.


Thanks for admitting that. That's a big credibility booster.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

bild-a-loco said:


> Not surprised, since the wife has become more of an evangelical, it certainly has put a severe strain on our marriage.


Why? I would think she would be more concerned about pleasing you.


----------



## birthdaysex (Feb 17, 2014)

It appears my comment was removed. I wonder why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> Or live the way the Asians do -- with commitment.
> 
> Americans are too focused on romantic love. Love can come over time, with each person fulfilling their responsibilities.


Controversial but very interesting point.
I thought the same thing when I read the article.

But in reality, people have freedom of choice. However what most people don't recognize is that we all pay sooner or later for our choices so they're aren't really " free."

I also read an article on Huffington post a few months ago about why Asian kids were doing so well in academics.
It came down to less liberalism.


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

jld said:


> Why? I would think she would be more concerned about pleasing you.


There are some evangelical churches that have morphed their teaching away from true biblical sexuality into "all sex is dirty unless for procreation." She may be in one, or may be listening/reading stuff from one of those. Or she may be whacked in the head, who knows?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> There are some evangelical churches that have morphed their teaching away from true biblical sexuality into "all sex is dirty unless for procreation." She may be in one, or may be listening/reading stuff from one of those. Or she may be whacked in the head, who knows?


I did not know that. I thought it was all about pleasing each other.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Controversial but very interesting point.
> I thought the same thing when I read the article.
> 
> But in reality, people have freedom of choice. However what most people don't recognize is that we all pay sooner or later for our choices so they're aren't really " free."
> ...


I'll tell ya, CM, I believe in love and empowerment and education and all that. But I also believe in looking at the bottom line. We all have responsibilities in life. And sometimes just accepting those responsibilities is the thing to do. We receive the benefit later.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i must seek out the oddest pentacostal churches around...

the one i grew up in(after i converted at 15) had a class for married couples. the topic?

how to have awesome, mind-blowing sex with your spouse. i remember the pastor talking it up... in his words "if your mind is not getting blown every night, your missing out!"

i never got to attend since i wasnt married at the time, but now that i think about it, all the married couples that i knew back then are still happily married now...

at the same time, i remember a Methodist church i attended where the pastor refused to allow a similar class in his church. he viewed it as "inviting temptation". every youth pastor that he had ended up in divorce... usually for infidelity.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I started out in an evangelical Protestant church. I'm still Protestant but more of a reformer. When I was in the previous church, anything to do with sexual sins, porn, adultery, etc. was always directed at men. They basically taught that women didn't screw up in the sexual arena, just men...This left women completely unprepared when temptation came knocking...I have seen several stories where a WW truly did not believe adultery was something she even needed to guard against...When people know what they are capable of, they can get some healthy boundaries to prevent infidelity...They also teach that Christian men don't get mad or raise their voiceIt's a recipe for disaster when women are taught not to protect themselves sexually and their husbands can't get mad or yell about it.


First wave feminism was part and parcel of the social reform movement spawned by the last big revival in the northeast, The Second Great Awakening. The population of the northeast at that time was about 95% protestant, with a large hard core descended from Puritans, Presbyterians, and Baptists. The whole movement was run by women, for the amusement of women, and one of its main tenets was that women were vastly morally superior to men. Although revival movement was limited to the northeast, its seeds were carried to the whole country and now "evangelicalism" nationwide embraces the feminist ideas of the first wave as fundamentally "Christian."


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> First wave feminism was part and parcel of the social reform movement spawned by the last big revival in the northeast, The Second Great Awakening. The population of the northeast at that time was about 95% protestant, with a large hard core descended from Puritans, Presbyterians, and Baptists. The whole movement was run by women, for the amusement of women, and one of its main tenets was that women were vastly morally superior to men. Although revival movement was limited to the northeast, its seeds were carried to the whole country and now "evangelicalism" nationwide embraces the feminist ideas of the first wave as fundamentally "Christian."


From what I've seen I would believe it. I even heard one minister say women were closer in character to God! Do you have some resources so I could research that subject?


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> From what I've seen I would believe it. I even heard one minister say women were closer in character to God! Do you have some resources so I could research that subject?


This is an outstanding blog devoted to just this subject, along with married game. Dalrock. Your mind will be blown. Also, much of this is covered at "Alpha Game Plan."

There used to be more Christian oriented blogs like these two, but quite a few of the proprietors were identified by the Pinkshirts and driven into outer darkness with much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Me personally, I believe it's because we as a nation have rejected God and his word.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sometimes I think Christians may be better at "Covering up" because they need to be "that example" before others..or they vow to stay in unhappy marriages feeling this is pleasing God and /or feeling like more of a failure -facing the judgement , rumors of their community...
> 
> Whether sitting in the church pew or not...if a couple lacks the communication skills to unearth their issues and be determined , come hell or high water ...to work together to get back to "emotional intimacy"...and harmony...what is a marriage really worth -but going through the motions...
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if perhaps Christians are more likely to get married rather than co-habitat which might be responsible for them to have a higher divorce rate..


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> From what I've seen I would believe it. I even heard one minister say women were closer in character to God! Do you have some resources so I could research that subject?


Really......that's horrible....the whole madonna thing

IDK I am Lutheran and have never heard these kinds of things...I do hope we all don't generalize the Church..there are some really great denominations and congregations out there...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

over20 said:


> Really......that's horrible....the whole madonna thing
> 
> IDK I am Lutheran and have never heard these kinds of things...I do hope we all don't generalize the Church..there are some really great denominations and congregations out there...


ELCA or Missouri Synod?


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

hambone said:


> I'm wondering if perhaps Christians are more likely to get married rather than co-habitat which might be responsible for them to have a higher divorce rate..



Great point!!..Again....I hope we all don't generalize people....Christians are regular people too that struggle with all the same issues as Non Christians.....we are all more similar than different......I think that's a nice thing..


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

therealbrighteyes said:


> elca or missouri synod?


lcms


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

bild-a-loco said:


> Not surprised, since the wife has become more of an evangelical, it certainly has put a severe strain on our marriage.


That is sooo sad. It should have the opposite effect. The Song of Songs is a whole book about sex....in the New Testament Christ instructs each spouse to never deprive each other sexually. Christ also instructs husbands and wives to meet their spouses needs....I have reached out to outstanding Christian author's and their works...C.S. Lewis/Dr. James Dobson/Rev. Billy Graham..his daughter Anne Graham Lotz/Dr. Kevin Leman/Gary Smalley......

Don't give up hope.....things will get better!


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

over20 said:


> Great point!!..Again....I hope we all don't generalize people....Christians are regular people too that struggle with all the same issues as Non Christians.....we are all more similar than different......I think that's a nice thing..


My wife's daughter was about co-habit.... her mother and grandmother convinced her that it was a bad idea. So, she got married to the guy she was going to cohabit. for a lot of wrong reasons. And of course, she ended up getting divorced in a few years.

BUT, the alternative would have been she would have ended up cohabiting with a series of guys.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

over20 said:


> lcms


I think you and I are similar in that as Lutherans, I am often shocked to hear about the restrictions/beliefs of some other religions. I'm pretty sure a few other religions look at Lutherans with horror though. To each their own.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

I know....I think we are all put in the same box...


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

hambone said:


> My wife's daughter was about co-habit.... her mother and grandmother convinced her that it was a bad idea. So, she got married to the guy she was going to cohabit. for a lot of wrong reasons. And of course, she ended up getting divorced in a few years.
> 
> BUT, the alternative would have been she would have ended up cohabiting with a series of guys.


I am so sorry it did not work out


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

over20 said:


> I know....I think we are all put in the same box...


I don't feel that way but my experiences have mostly been positive.


----------



## Kria (Aug 4, 2013)

hambone said:


> I'm wondering if perhaps Christians are more likely to get married rather than co-habitat which might be responsible for them to have a higher divorce rate..


This is very common. Christians marrying whoever is available just to have sex so a lot of them end up with spouses they are incompatible with.

Of course many people have sex before marriage and still end up with incompatible mates.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

That's great!!!.....I just meant on a forum like this it seems all Christians seem to be put in the same box... in real life not so much.....


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think you and I are similar in that as Lutherans, I am often shocked to hear about the restrictions/beliefs of some other religions. I'm pretty sure a few other religions look at Lutherans with horror though. To each their own.


i went to a luthren church once that asked me to leave because i was serving in the armed forces. they explained that they could not condone military service because they felt that if they did, they would be supporting killing of fellow human beings.


funny thing is that i kinda agree with them. now, i have different views of the service, (i don't condone killing, even in war) but i respect their views. 

at the same time, after visiting literally thousands of churches, that not all Lutheran congregations are the same. even within the context of the same doctrine, some will tell me to leave, some will welcome me, and some will tell me that i need to leave the service. 

the way i see it... i try to help everyone i can. i want to help them be better than they are. i believe in loving others regardless of where they are in life and what decisions they have made. i couldn't care less about where they are when i meet them.

thats just me though. i find with any congregation, your mileage may vary.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> i went to a luthren church once that asked me to leave because i was serving in the armed forces. they explained that they could not condone military service because they felt that if they did, they would be supporting killing of fellow human beings.
> 
> 
> funny thing is that i kinda agree with them. now, i have different views of the service, (i don't condone killing, even in war) but i respect their views.
> ...


Of course not all Lutheran congregations are the same, no church is. I went to 7 different Lutheran churches before I found one that fits my values. Throwing a military service member out is about as far removed from my value system as possible. I'm sorry you went through that.

Back to the OP's topic, I think religion isn't the issue here at all. If you look at the "bible belt", they contain the poorest states in America. Financial (behind sex) is the biggest reason marriages/LTR's end. It would also explain why the least amount of breakups are in the Northeast, a distinctly less religious region yet their relationships are more in tact. Money, that's why. It is a far wealthier area.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Of course not all Lutheran congregations are the same, no church is. I went to 7 different Lutheran churches before I found one that fits my values. Throwing a military service member out is about as far removed from my value system as possible. I'm sorry you went through that.
> 
> Back to the OP's topic, I think religion isn't the issue here at all. If you look at the "bible belt", they contain the poorest states in America. Financial (behind sex) is the biggest reason marriages/LTR's end. It would also explain why the least amount of breakups are in the Northeast, a distinctly less religious region yet their relationships are more in tact. Money, that's why. It is a far wealthier area.


i agree. i have no idea why the southern states seem to have higher rates of poverty, but they do. 

i grew up as one of the poor of the southern states(north florida). i saw it first hand. to this day, it still blows my mind that so many of my high school friends blame "the system" for their problems. 

makes no sense to me.

regardless, they are still pretty much poor.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> i agree. i have no idea why the southern states seem to have higher rates of poverty, but they do.


Many people have differing opinions about why this is. Regardless, these states are poor and given the significant level of family breakups vs. the wealthy Northeast, that suggests this has nothing to do with religion. The article pivots from their stance a bit regarding Asian families saying they stay together due to social conditioning, failing to see if conditioning was a reason to stay together, religious families would certainly be intact. Asian families (in this country) are by and large prosperous. The stresses of poverty simply aren't there. It all boils down to money. Families that have it are more likely to stay together than those who don't.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups*



over20 said:


> I understand where you are coming from but I DO think kids care if mom and dad ARE married and committed to each other. Children DO want to see their parents in love with each other. A loving unit is the safest place for a child to be in.


Can't argue with that. Are you saying that all married parents live in a committed and loving union? 

Divorce is not good for kids.

Some marriages are not good for kids.

Some divorces are less damaging to children than if the parents were to remain married.

I know. I'm in one.

I attended church for the benefit of my family, and the roots it created in the community. We greatly enjoyed it. My ex, who is effectively a single mom now living with another man outside of wedlock is the director of Christian Ed.

I don't say that with scorn. I say with the appreciation that our church understands that people are flawed, and their flaws dont define them.

I am not religious. I no longer attend church.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I attended church for the benefit of my family, and the roots it created in the community. We greatly enjoyed it.* My ex, who is effectively a single mom now living with another man outside of wedlock is the director of Christian Ed.
> 
> I don't say that with scorn. I say with the appreciation that our church understands that people are flawed, and their flaws dont define them.*


The Church I go to (rarely) would have had the woman step down if she was co-habitating unmarried... I seen it happen to a friend of mine... I felt really bad for her situation... as she was a Widow who...was single for many yrs.. didn't have the looks, great lady though...she met someone, he was good for her, wanted to get to know her.. her older sons loved him... he helped her, cut her grass, was there for her in every way (something she had been missing for so many many yrs-thought she would die alone)... I LIKED the guy..but the church was having people knock on her door, they were concerned he was not a Believer... it got very ugly, they removed her from her teaching the kids..they ended up moving along to another church.

I can see where they were coming from to a point....yet I saw HIM as good for her... I wrote her a letter telling her to not give this man up -regardless of what was coming against her if she was happy...(I felt she deserved that happiness).... I know it meant alot to her as she was taking a beating from many in the church. He died so many yrs later.. I went to that funeral, she said those were the greatest years of her life...I cried hearing her talk...what this man brought into her life..... even though I am purely one who is for marriage -in the same breathe. 

It's conflicting in some ways. I looked more at the heart over the "rules" , one could say.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

over20 said:


> Really......that's horrible....the whole madonna thing
> 
> IDK I am Lutheran and have never heard these kinds of things...I do hope we all don't generalize the Church..there are some really great denominations and congregations out there...


No generalizations here 20. 
I'm still a church man. Just not part of the group I described previously.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups*



SimplyAmorous said:


> The Church I go to (rarely) would have had the woman step down if she was co-habitating unmarried... I seen it happen to a friend of mine... I felt really bad for her situation... as she was a Widow who...was single for many yrs.. didn't have the looks, great lady though...she met someone, he was good for her, wanted to get to know her.. her older sons loved him... he helped her, cut her grass, was there for her in every way (something she had been missing for so many many yrs-thought she would die alone)... I LIKED the guy..but the church was having people knock on her door, they were concerned he was not a Believer... it got very ugly, they removed her from her teaching the kids..they ended up moving along to another church.
> 
> I can see where they were coming from to a point....yet I saw HIM as good for her... I wrote her a letter telling her to not give this man up -regardless of what was coming against her if she was happy...(I felt she deserved that happiness).... I know it meant alot to her as she was taking a beating from many in the church. He died so many yrs later.. I went to that funeral, she said those were the greatest years of her life...I cried hearing her talk...what this man brought into her life..... even though I am purely one who is for marriage -in the same breathe.
> 
> It's conflicting in some ways. I looked more at the heart over the "rules" , one could say.


Our church was Congregational UCC, openly gay pastor. Basically most other churches don't think highly of UCC. I was raised Catholic, don't miss that structure one bit.

I agree with TRBE, poverty is a likely corollary rather than religion itself.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The Church I go to (rarely) would have had the woman step down if she was co-habitating unmarried... I seen it happen to a friend of mine... I felt really bad for her situation... as she was a Widow who...was single for many yrs.. didn't have the looks, great lady though...she met someone, he was good for her, wanted to get to know her.. her older sons loved him... he helped her, cut her grass, was there for her in every way (something she had been missing for so many many yrs-thought she would die alone)... I LIKED the guy..but the church was having people knock on her door, they were concerned he was not a Believer... it got very ugly, they removed her from her teaching the kids..they ended up moving along to another church.
> 
> I can see where they were coming from to a point....yet I saw HIM as good for her... I wrote her a letter telling her to not give this man up -regardless of what was coming against her if she was happy...(I felt she deserved that happiness).... I know it meant alot to her as she was taking a beating from many in the church. He died so many yrs later.. I went to that funeral, she said those were the greatest years of her life...I cried hearing her talk...what this man brought into her life..... even though I am purely one who is for marriage -in the same breathe.
> 
> It's conflicting in some ways. I looked more at the heart over the "rules" , one could say.


I feel for her situation too. But it is kind of weird to teach something you are actively showing that you don't believe.

I am pretty consistently amazed when people are surprised ,when they start openly doing something against whatever their institution teaches, and then the institution confronts them about it.

First church I went to as an adult. I start working with kids. The director of childrens ministries always strikes me as weird, she hits on me a couple of times. I ignore her, we are both married.

She eventually gets busted fvcking another guy she was working with.
I had complained about her a lot and they would not do anything about it. They finally removed her after she was found with the wrong penis in her. 

If your gonna tell people what they should do, you better damn well be doing it too!


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Thound said:


> Me personally, I believe it's because we as a nation have rejected God and his word.


Any time god wants to disabuse me of the notion that he doesn't exist, he's free to do so.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Why is the teen birthrate so high in the south and why does it correlate so well with the Bible Belt? I'm sure there's a very interesting and very hard to disentangle explanation.


I've seen this sort of thing before, but went for a further look when I saw your post, and looked between these two pages:

Teenage Birth Rates By State - What States Have Highest Birth Rates, Lowest Birth Rates

Abstinence Only Education and Sex Education in the U.S.

I put them together to make it a little simpler:

US teen birthrates per 1,000 women aged 15-19, 2010
N = no sex education program
A = abstinence only/stressed, not required to inform about contraception

A - Mississippi 55.0
A - New Mexico 52.9
N - Arkansas 52.5
N - Texas 52.2
A - Oklahoma 50.4
N - Louisiana 47.7
A - Kentucky 46.2
A - West Virginia 44.8
A - Alabama 43.6
A - Tennessee 43.2
A - South Carolina 42.5
N - Arizona 42.4

Ignorance is NOT bliss.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

over20 said:


> I know....I think we are all put in the same box...


Just as non-believers are often put in the "no morals or values" box. It all comes to down the individual.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> I feel for her situation too. But it is kind of weird to teach something you are actively showing that you don't believe.
> 
> I am pretty consistently amazed when people are surprised ,when they start openly doing something against whatever their institution teaches, and then the institution confronts them about it.


 She really didn't complain so much... she was just very hurt how everyone wanted her to remove him from her life... 

They were older, who knows if they were even having sex, he died of complications with diabetes... I believe they planned to marry ...he was on disability or something..there were concerns about a loss of benefits .. I am not really sure -just remember some talk about this.. they wanted to work it out..

I was very touched at the funeral, as a woman stood up and told us how he just wanted to meet someone, to love.. before he dies... and ...well.. they did. And it was good. ...I hated to see her loose him.. it was very very sad... 



> If your gonna tell people what they should do, you better damn well be doing it too!


Believe me, I agree...though I can no longer call myself a believer ....I do see some things as too stringent / too fundamentally strict and I have no desire to follow the mantra -one could say.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> She really didn't complain so much... she was just very hurt how everyone wanted her to remove him from her life...
> 
> They were older, who knows if they were even having sex, he died of complications with diabetes... I believe they planned to marry ...he was on disability or something..there were concerns about a loss of benefits .. I am not really sure -just remember some talk about this.. they wanted to work it out..
> 
> ...


That is honest SA. At least you aren't trying to teach something you are actively living against.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

I'd think the higher divorce rate for the deeply religious, if true (I don't know that it is), could be tied to it being a somewhat intolerant ideology (not necessarily the really bad sense of intolerance, but more a greater need for homogeneity - being alike). That is, if you're deeply religious, you probably want an equally deeply religious spouse. I know tons of people who were very religious as teens and young adults - and somewhere along the way as they got out from under their parents and church into the larger world, their sensibilities changed; they matured in their own way, and they didn't keep this deep sense of religion. I imagine if that happens to one spouse and not the other, its doom for the marriage.

The same is probably true if only one person in an atheist couple finds religion, but my guess is that this is much less likely. Professing atheism is usually tied to the way you think about things, and if you think that way, its unlikely one will go back to accepting supernatural causes.

TBH, I think these numbers are all more related to education and income - class - and all the things that entails; The south has a LOT of poorly educated, low income folks and for whatever reason religion is big for them.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> TBH, I think these numbers are all more related to education and income - class - and all the things that entails; The south has a LOT of poorly educated, low income folks and for whatever reason religion is big for them.


I try to avoid this topic, because the aggregate statistics say nothing about the individual, and I have no interest in offending anyone here directly...

But you're right. It's a well established fact that the better educated or inherently smarter you are, the less religion plays a role in your life, at least as means for large populations. So I expect that a good chunk of any link found here has less to do directly with religion than it does with the correlation between income, education, religion, and all of the interplay among them that is more prevalent in the Bible belt.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

over20 said:


> I am so sorry it did not work out


My step daughter had a whole lot of defiance in her. She turned 18 and was bound and determined to move out. When she was 15, she moved from our home to her fathers. She said a whole lot of ugly things about me and her mom to justify moving in with her dad. Her dad promised her a new bedroom suite, a new sports car and to pay for her college if she moved in with him. When she turned 18, her dad turned on her. He was no longer obligated to pay child support. He made it impossible for her to continue living with him. And those promises? Her clothes were still in card board boxes... The only furniture she had in her room was a mattress and box springs on the floor. He bought her a 1972 Toyota pick up that she continually had to fill up with oil and radiator fluid. No air, no radio. And college... well forget about that. She was a straight A student when she lived with us but he was a state policeman. He worked shifts... My wife got a call about 2 weeks before she should have been graduating... The only think this child had to do to graduate was make a D in senior English... and she was flunking. From straight A's at our house to straight F's in only 2 years. By hook and crook... my wife got them to give her two extra weeks to get enough stuff together to graduate.. Of course, by that time commencement etc was over. My wife asked me about her possibly moving back in with us. And I said, "If she'll apologize for all those ugly things she said about us.. OK." She never apologized. So, she meets this guy and 4 weeks later, she want's to start co-habiting. Neither one of them had a job. My wife and her mother "put every guilt trip they could think of" on her... So, they decided to get married... GOOD... this will give them some time to cool off and realize that's not a good idea. NO!!! they are getting married TOMORROW! OMG... didn't see that one coming. They drove to Texas, where's there was no waiting period, to get married. Something was wrong... so they drove direct to Arkansas and got married. Long story short. She got pregnant, had the baby... and then her husband got deployed to Iraq. When he came back, he never moved back into the home. And they ended up divorced. BUT, what if they hadn't gotten married, just cohabitated? They'd have broke up.... and then what would she have done? Still no job... she'd have moved in with someone else... and when they broke up? Move in with someone else... And, once she had that baby, she did become more responsible. She behaved herself... went to college, graduated.. got remarried and by all appearances... it's a good marriage. To finish the story. Her and her new husband had a baby in Jan. 2013. It was a special needs baby. Unfortunately, he passed away in November. She is having a very difficult time getting over it.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

hambone said:


> My wife's daughter was about co-habit.... her mother and grandmother convinced her that it was a bad idea. So, she got married to the guy she was going to cohabit. for a lot of wrong reasons. And of course, she ended up getting divorced in a few years.
> 
> BUT, the alternative would have been she would have ended up cohabiting with a series of guys.


Why does that follow? I'd assume that had she cohabited with the guy, they'd just have broken up.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Why does that follow? I'd assume that had she cohabited with the guy, they'd just have broken up.


Well, when you are unemployed.. and refuse to live with either of your parents.. what are your alternatives?

Consider the fact that she was so willing to cohabit with the first guy, a guy she barely knew.. And, once you've done something the first time... it get's easier the second time.

Don't underestimate her level of defiance. She would do ANYTHING other than back down or apologize.

Till this day.. I've never heard her apologize to anyone for anything.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The Church I go to (rarely) would have had the woman step down if she was co-habitating unmarried... I seen it happen to a friend of mine... I felt really bad for her situation... as she was a Widow who...was single for many yrs.. didn't have the looks, great lady though...she met someone, he was good for her, wanted to get to know her.. her older sons loved him... he helped her, cut her grass, was there for her in every way (something she had been missing for so many many yrs-thought she would die alone)... I LIKED the guy..but the church was having people knock on her door, they were concerned he was not a Believer... it got very ugly, they removed her from her teaching the kids..they ended up moving along to another church.
> 
> I can see where they were coming from to a point....yet I saw HIM as good for her... I wrote her a letter telling her to not give this man up -regardless of what was coming against her if she was happy...(I felt she deserved that happiness).... I know it meant alot to her as she was taking a beating from many in the church. He died so many yrs later.. I went to that funeral, she said those were the greatest years of her life...I cried hearing her talk...what this man brought into her life..... even though I am purely one who is for marriage -in the same breathe.
> 
> It's conflicting in some ways. I looked more at the heart over the "rules" , one could say.


One sees all of this and one learns. The problem is that we learn so slowly that by the time we gain wisdom, we are too old to do much with it. 

My take on it all is that we are all different. And each situation is different. There are no general rules that cover all situations so trying to apply rules that way will fail in many cases. To apply that to TAM means that advice such as the oft given: "She cheated, toss her to the curb!" simply is wrong. Another horrible statement is the also often said: "Having an affair is the worst thing that one can do to one's spouse.", which is also obviously wrong. Several activities involving say a hammer can be much worse.

I think that the greatest thing we can do here is help people. If we can also save their marriages, we've done extra well.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

hambone said:


> Well, when you are unemployed.. and refuse to live with either of your parents.. what are your alternatives?
> 
> Consider the fact that she was so willing to cohabit with the first guy, a guy she barely knew.. And, once you've done something the first time... it get's easier the second time.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. That's very sad. Very.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups*



ConanHub said:


> That is honest SA. At least you aren't trying to teach something you are actively living against.


Childrens Christian ED doesn't do much teaching about marriage, wedlock, or who its ok to f*ck and who it isn't. I actually think it would be comical if they chose to boot my ex on moral grounds. The last 3 directors resigned. They wouldnt have anyone to do it.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sorry. That's very sad. Very.


Don't be. Her getting married, even though it didn't stick, she was in it long enough to grow up and mature... 

That ended up being a much better choice than hopping from bed to bed.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> 7% of black kids between 15 and 18 years of age are in intact two-parent families in Milwaukee


This is a known statistic, and yet they wonder why our public schools have problems. (I live in Milwaukee.) They are continually pushing for more testing, more standards, and the ability to fire teachers based on student performance. But the issue is - none of those things are going to clear up the issues where 93% of a good part of your student body is living in a one parent home. 

I could go on, but - its a big problem.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

sh987 said:


> Just as non-believers are often put in the "no morals or values" box. It all comes to down the individual.


Great point!!! I am sorry I did not think of it that way also.....sorry


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> This is a known statistic, and yet they wonder why our public schools have problems. (I live in Milwaukee.) They are continually pushing for more testing, more standards, and the ability to fire teachers based on student performance. But the issue is - none of those things are going to clear up the issues where 93% of a good part of your student body is living in a one parent home.
> 
> I could go on, but - its a big problem.


That must be so very frustrating........so sad...but so common


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Blonde said:


> So, I looked at the article you linked and followed a link to the source cited
> 
> Here is their definition:
> 
> ...


There is a possibly more cynical interpretation. In areas where people see themselves as having litttle economic potential, their value as a partner is highest in their early twenties and they are earning as much as they will ever earn, so they might as well start a family.

If you expect a good career, then you would be wiser to hold off. You are also more likely to move to a city like Boston.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> This is a known statistic, and yet they wonder why our public schools have problems. (I live in Milwaukee.) They are continually pushing for more testing, more standards, and the ability to fire teachers based on student performance. But the issue is - none of those things are going to clear up the issues where 93% of a good part of your student body is living in a one parent home.
> 
> I could go on, but - its a big problem.


But is it really a question of having one parent, or growing up in poverty, dysfunction, and violence?


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> There is a possibly more cynical interpretation. In areas where people see themselves as having litttle economic potential, their value as a partner is highest in their early twenties and they are earning as much as they will ever earn, so they might as well start a family.
> 
> If you expect a good career, then you would be wiser to hold off. You are also more likely to move to a city like Boston.


I don't think I gave an interpretation? But I'm less inclined to attribute it to "the Bible" (*as OP does*) than to other factors such as education and poverty which others have mentioned on the thread. 



ntamph said:


> Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups; Is it About Faith or Race?
> 
> This was kind of unexpected for me. I grew up in a very Catholic family in the Northeast where you stayed with your husband even if he was abusive.* I've rejected religion because of that *(and other reasons).
> 
> I know that many people here are from the South. What do you think of this?


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

over20 said:


> Great point!!! I am sorry I did not think of it that way also.....sorry


Not a problem at all. It's only natural that we identify with our own side of things first. Not only that, but for all I know, just about everybody in your sphere of influence is Christian, with non-believers/atheists being a fairly foreign entity.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Blonde said:


> I don't think I gave an interpretation? But I'm less inclined to attribute it to "the Bible" (*as OP does*) than to other factors such as education and poverty which others have mentioned on the thread.


I agree. The bible never hurt anybody. It's a book filled with words.

There are crazy people that twist and misinterpret those words for their own insane reasons and then try to brainwash others into following that interpretation. 

But crazy is crazy. If the bible didn't exist crazy people would try that with something else.

But I don't think OP was attributing this to the Bible. Just the segment of crazies in the population that yell as loud as they can about how morally clean they are, meanwhile they don't even follow their own teachings.

But again, those are just the crazy ones. There are plenty of good Christians out there.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I agree. The bible never hurt anybody. It's a book filled with words.


Bibles don't kill people. Idiots wielding Bibles kill people.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> This is a known statistic, and yet they wonder why our public schools have problems. (I live in Milwaukee.) They are continually pushing for more testing, more standards, and the ability to fire teachers based on student performance. But the issue is - none of those things are going to clear up the issues where 93% of a good part of your student body is living in a one parent home.
> 
> I could go on, but - its a big problem.


I have a friend who teaches and worked with high-needs schools and kids. So my commentary is based on her experience and our discussions.

Per the thread on marriage rates/poor not marrying as much, then having kids... I see a correlation that is somewhat of a viscous circle that expands exponentially due to the increase in the poor having more and more kids whereas wealthier parents are likely to cap their families at 1 or 2.

The poor kid turns 18 and let's say they simply need to become earners out of financial necessity. So they work and start of a minimum wage because they are unskilled labor. Maybe a little more. They go through a few relationships, resulting in several children out of wedlock. Now they still have to work, the chances of going back to school or doing online college courses are nil so it's just a matter of living paycheck to paycheck. 

They need public assistance, don't have any savings and can't afford decent daycare so their kids go to a low quality daycare. No where is education stressed. They don't have books, there are no quality reading material at home; in fact they probably haven't seen their parent read anything beyond "People" at the grocery checkout. Language skills are FUNDAMENTAL to learning everything! Their parents didn't speak proper English therefore they speak the way their parents speak and barely squeak by in school, taking remedial everything. Education is not stressed. Often there is substance abuse and or child abuse/neglect going on because parents (whether they live with one or the other) parents are uneducated on proper child-rearing methods (odds are they didn't read "Years 1-5" by the AAP) or so stressed out they snap and yell and are just trying to get the bare minimum done and that's all they can muster.

So the kid doesn't get read to, they don't get quality time with their parent, their parent(s) can't/won't help with homework and they never see their parents engaging in activities that expand their knowledge because they are working too long and hard just to provide basic clothing, a used car, a cheap apartment and processed food... then the kid is alone, dabbles in drugs including hard stuff, skips school sometimes (because education is not deemed important in child's world), runs with a bad crowd and gets pregnant/gets someone pregnant. 

Now the teen girl is saddled with a baby and cycle starts over or the teen boy is already saddled with child support before he even graduates. 

Almost all children have the ability to learn - have a similar innate intelligence. But it's the poor children who are most often deprived of enriching experiences to cultivate their gifts. Also, studies show that once kids get behind their peers, the older they get the gap widens.

Now you started with 2 poor, uneducated people who had 3 kids. The poor population just grew 50%. Also with the lack of prenatal care and understanding, there is some evidence that more poor children are disabled, resulting in an even higher financial burden to that family.

The cycle is hard to break and it takes parents working WITH teachers - teachers can't do it alone. If no one reads to them at night and they don't get adequate nutrition, how can they possibly succeed? Some do, but the numbers are sadly small.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> But is it really a question of having one parent, or growing up in poverty, dysfunction, and violence?


Well, as EnjoliWoman points out - the two are no doubt fundamentally linked. 




> The cycle is hard to break and it takes parents working WITH teachers - teachers can't do it alone. If no one reads to them at night and they don't get adequate nutrition, how can they possibly succeed? Some do, but the numbers are sadly small.


And even the nutrition they receive at school is usually woefully sad. I can't tell you the meals I see usually served for breakfast (I teach myself) - chocolate milk, fruit cups, and large frosting covered cinnamon rolls all containing large amounts of sugar/high fructose corn syrup. And then we wonder why kids are wound up and can't concentrate. That's not even getting into a GMO conversation.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Well, as EnjoliWoman points out - the two are no doubt fundamentally linked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Often single parent households are linked with poverty - more often than not. Especially where a father figure is absent altogether as well as child support. I think whether or not you were married, had kids and divorced makes a huge difference vs. single mother who was never married.

Scarlet and I (and several wonderful, successful women I know) have beaten the odds. But all of us were raised that way, too. Parents who emphasized hard work and education. But unfortunately those are the exception. I know there are way more single parents who struggle than succeed.

I would be interested to see the statistics broken down to those who had been married to the child's father vs. those who hadn't. I bet the father makes a HUGE difference.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Bibles don't kill people. Idiots wielding Bibles kill people.


I don't know... Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao killed an awful lot of people. None of them were Christians.


----------



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

hambone said:


> I don't know... Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao killed an awful lot of people. None of them were Christians.


Hitler was a Christian and frequently mentioned God in his speeches (and I mean A LOT). He actually believed in a special kind of spiritual bond between Germans and other "Aryans" and was not as concerned about race as his henchmen.

Stalin was an atheist but Stalinism was only possible in Russia because for a thousand years before the revolution the Eastern Orthodox Church drilled blind obedience to the czar into the Russian people and this was easily transferred from the czar to the party/Stalin.

Confucian culture in China also emphasizes blind obedience to authority so Mao could easily exploit it too.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hambone said:


> I don't know... Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao killed an awful lot of people. None of them were Christians.


Never said that they didn't. 

If 'A' then 'B' does not logically imply if 'not A' then 'not B'.

Besides, it was a riff on the ol' NRA slogan.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ntamph said:


> Hitler was a Christian and frequently mentioned God in his speeches (and I mean A LOT). He actually believed in a special kind of spiritual bond between Germans and other "Aryans" and was not as concerned about race as his henchmen.
> 
> Stalin was an atheist but Stalinism was only possible in Russia because for a thousand years before the revolution the Eastern Orthodox Church drilled blind obedience to the czar into the Russian people and this was easily transferred from the czar to the party/Stalin.
> 
> Confucian culture in China also emphasizes blind obedience to authority so Mao could easily exploit it too.


Hitler was raised as a catholic.. and he was still officially a member of the church at his death but he detested religion. Hitler certainly didn't kill folks in the name of God or Jesus...neither did Stalin or Chairman Mao.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'd think the higher divorce rate for the deeply religious, if true (I don't know that it is), could be tied to it being a somewhat intolerant ideology (not necessarily the really bad sense of intolerance, but more a greater need for homogeneity - being alike). That is, if you're deeply religious, you probably want an equally deeply religious spouse. I know tons of people who were very religious as teens and young adults - and somewhere along the way as they got out from under their parents and church into the larger world, their sensibilities changed; they matured in their own way, and they didn't keep this deep sense of religion. I imagine if that happens to one spouse and not the other, its doom for the marriage.
> 
> The same is probably true if only one person in an atheist couple finds religion, but my guess is that this is much less likely. Professing atheism is usually tied to the way you think about things, and if you think that way, its unlikely one will go back to accepting supernatural causes.
> 
> TBH, I think these numbers are all more related to education and income - class - and all the things that entails; The south has a LOT of poorly educated, low income folks and for whatever reason religion is big for them.


Great POV! Your seeing it from a much different angle..thanks


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

> The Black Family
> 
> Fagan explained that the lowest rates of family belonging in the nation occurred in the black community – 9 percent among African Americans in the District of Columbia and 7 percent in Milwaukee. "The black family is just in meltdown crisis on family and on marriage," the researcher argued, "and that's what locking them into poverty."


There is no crisis at all imho. 

This was the same picture forty years ago, and it just has not improved. In general black women have children of many fathers, and the fathers are only now and then present. If at all. This has nothing to do with the church or faith.

The statistics in the article are a nice example of 'how to lie with statistics'.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

ntamph said:


> _Hitler was a Christian_ and frequently mentioned God in his speeches (and I mean A LOT). He actually believed in a special kind of spiritual bond between Germans and other "Aryans" and was not as concerned about race as his henchmen.


I never heard this being said, so I would like to see sources of this, have you some links for me?

At contrast, Wikipedia:
"His closest confidante, Josef Goebbels, suggested that Hitler was 'profoundly religious yet entirely anti-Christian', seeing Christianity as an offshoot of the Jewish race. (Goebbels Diaries)"


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Hitler was a Christian and frequently mentioned God in his speeches (and I mean A LOT). He actually believed in a special kind of spiritual bond between Germans and other "Aryans" and was not as concerned about race as his henchmen.
> 
> Stalin was an atheist but Stalinism was only possible in Russia because for a thousand years before the revolution the Eastern Orthodox Church drilled blind obedience to the czar into the Russian people and this was easily transferred from the czar to the party/Stalin.
> 
> Confucian culture in China also emphasizes blind obedience to authority so Mao could easily exploit it too.


Errr , NO.

Hitler was_ born_ into a Catholic home and raised as one.But at that time almost everyone in Germany was Catholic or Christian.

However , Hitler used the Christianity to sell his version of Socialism and win support for his brand of madness called Nazism.
If anything, the Catholic church in Germany was opposed to Hitler so he silenced them.
Hitler dabbled in all sorts of esoteric writings and mysticism. The Swatika symbol for the Nazi Party is actually an important symbol in Hinduism that stands for eternity. Hitler himself ordered that it be the party symbol.

Also ,Hitler was very concerned about breeding a pure Aryan race even more than his henchmen, he saw himself as an incarnation of Nietzche , a famous Atheist philosopher, and envisioned, trying to prove himself to be the _Übermensch_ and the precursor of the Master race. 
In fact , he was also an big admirer of Darwin's cousin ,Francis Galton, an Atheist ,pioneering work in Eugenics , and did his own extensive research. Eugenics was the theory of breeding a genetically superior race by weeding out so called " defective and weaker " races. In practice , it entailed killing physically disabled people ,mentally ill people , and anyone with any type of " defects " or with a low IQ. " Defective" babies and other races were also to be either forcefully sterilized or killed.
The theory and practice of Eugenics was widely accepted by many influential scholars and academics back then , and most who endorsed it were also Atheists.

The Catholic church was strongly opposed to it and suffered greatly for raising its voice against Hitler.

Hitler could not have believed in God because he thought that _he _was God. 
He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in_ Mein Kampf_, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that:
"_National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable_" and Hitler agreed. 

Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said :
"_One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both_." 

In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools.
Hitler himself once said : 
"_Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis."_

Hitler was neither Atheist or Christian, he was cunning , sophisticated, manipulator / conman who ended up fooling himself.
In the end he did what all conmen do when there are no more ropes to pull, and no one else to fool .
He put the rope around his own neck ,and jumped off his pedestal.


You are also very inaccurate about Stalin and the Communist revolution, and Mao Zedung's Communist China.


----------



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

http://godlesspaladin.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/religion-vs-hdi.jpg


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ntamph said:


> http://godlesspaladin.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/religion-vs-hdi.jpg


With the exception of South America, the anti-correlation is pronounced.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Maybe they're economically well enough off that they can afford to get divorced. There are tons of poor people who stay legally married but live apart and start other families.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Childrens Christian ED doesn't do much teaching about marriage, wedlock, or who its ok to f*ck and who it isn't. I actually think it would be comical if they chose to boot my ex on moral grounds. The last 3 directors resigned. They wouldnt have anyone to do it.


I actually started out in children's ministry and I did cover those bases in a child friendly format. But if she is in a church where dudes are banging each other, I guess they are teaching from a different Bible than I did.

I got no mercy for people who preach from a book they have contempt for. If your preaching it, you better be following it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ntamph said:


> Hitler was a Christian and frequently mentioned God in his speeches (and I mean A LOT). He actually believed in a special kind of spiritual bond between Germans and other "Aryans" and was not as concerned about race as his henchmen.
> 
> Stalin was an atheist but Stalinism was only possible in Russia because for a thousand years before the revolution the Eastern Orthodox Church drilled blind obedience to the czar into the Russian people and this was easily transferred from the czar to the party/Stalin.
> 
> Confucian culture in China also emphasizes blind obedience to authority so Mao could easily exploit it too.


Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean they are. Can you show me where Jesus said to wipe everyone out who wasn't white. Hitler hated black people too. He was a racist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean they are. Can you show me where Jesus said to wipe everyone out who wasn't white. Hitler hated black people too. He was a racist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's been ample killing and suffering from both sides of the theological fence. It just seems to be part of the human condition.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cletus said:


> There's been ample killing and suffering from both sides of the theological fence. *It just seems to be part of the human condition.*


Exactly!


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Cletus said:


> There's been ample killing and suffering from both sides of the theological fence. It just seems to be part of the human condition.


Can you give me a list of examples of Christians committing genocide say, since 1900?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Study Shows US Bible Belt Has Highest Rate of Family Break-Ups*



ConanHub said:


> I actually started out in children's ministry and I did cover those bases in a child friendly format. But if she is in a church where dudes are banging each other, I guess they are teaching from a different Bible than I did.
> 
> I got no mercy for people who preach from a book they have contempt for. If your preaching it, you better be following it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope same Bible as you. You know, the one that Catholic pedophile priests, Swaggart, Baker, Benny Hin, and those kind of dudes preach from.


And for the record, the gay pastor wasn't a dude. ;-)


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Nope same Bible as you. You know, the one that Catholic pedophile priests, Swaggart, Baker, Benny Hin, and those kind of dudes preach from.
> 
> 
> And for the record, the gay pastor wasn't a dude. ;-)


Beware of false prophets.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Respectfully ham, and Conan, spirituality and faith is not a point I ever want to argue with someone about. It's far too subjective. And for those who don't believe it's subjective, well, then there's even less reason to debate.

I don't feel compelled to challenge anyone on what they believe, so I don't mean for my comments to come across that way.

My ex-wife is a flawed person ... just like everyone else, myself included. I understand the expectation that people 'walk the walk'.

I am no longer a person of faith. I have no issue with those who are.

But I still believe in forgiveness.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

One wold expect places that embrace religions that support divorce to actually experience at least as much divorce. Or did you think the prime event in the creation of Protestantism was not the issue of divorce, specifically?


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

hambone said:


> Can you give me a list of examples of Christians committing genocide say, since 1900?


Why?

What's the point?


Religion is used as an excuse to kill people.

Lack of religion is used as an excuse to kill people.

History is used as an excuse to kill people.

Nationality is used as an excuse to kill people.

People kill people, full stop. Nobody should wag their finger at anybody and claim the higher moral ground.

I don't know if Hitler was a Christian or not, I wasn't there and neither was anybody else there from here. He certainly used Christianity during his rise to power.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> One wold expect places that embrace religions that support divorce to actually experience at least as much divorce. Or did you think the prime event in the creation of Protestantism was not the issue of divorce, specifically?


The prime mover in the creation of Protestantism was not divorce.

Martin Luther tacked his 99 thesis on the door of the church in Wittenberg Germany.. he had a lot of complaints but I don't think divorce was one of them. 

His chief complaint was the selling of indulgences. Luther believed all that you had to do to get to heaven was to profess your faith and accept Jesus as your savior... He also believed you could talk directly to God...you didn't have to go through a priest. 

When Henry the VIII changed England from Catholic to Protestant, he didn't create Protestantism... he adopted it.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It would appear to be a very very fundamental difference.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

I am sure that there are many reasons why there is a high rate of family breakup in the Bible belt. *I do not believe for one minute it is because those families are following the standards and spirit of the Bible.*

I do not care how many churches you put in a location if the people are going to pick and choose what part of the Bible they will act upon you can not blame the Bible for that.

The Bible sets a very high standard for love, marriage, and relationships. It is so high that most people that I know do not live up to that standard all the time but it is the standard that if followed in the right spirit will keep most families together IMO


I have seen couples that believe in the biblical standards fail but they get back up and strive to apply as many of the biblical standards as they can and are successful most of the time. Those people that diligently strive to live up to the standards are the ones that I know that have been married for 30-40 and 50 years. They also have a very close family.


Here below are just anew biblical standards


*Luke 6:31*
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.


*Corinthians 13:4-7*
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, and it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres.



*Ephesians 5:33 *
However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. 




*1 Timothy 3:1-7 *
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 

*How can the above promote family breakups?*

Just because some people who claim the Bible do not live up to the Bible, that includes me at times, I do not blame the Bible.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hambone said:


> The prime mover in the creation of Protestantism was not divorce.


I think you missed the point of the word "divorce" in this discussion.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I think you missed the point of the word "divorce" in this discussion.


So, spain it to me.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hambone said:


> So, spain it to me.


I interpreted the comment to which we're referring as meaning the Reformation was a divorce of sorts by Luther from the Catholic Church.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I interpreted the comment to which we're referring as meaning the Reformation was a divorce of sorts by Luther from the Catholic Church.


Well, Lurther didn't mean to start the reformation.

The Catholic church put him on trial for his actions. On the way back home, before he got the verdict, he was kidnapped by the Prince Friedrich and held for safe keeping in his castle.

See, the German Princes were tired of sending all that money to Rome. They saw it as an excuse to quit paying. Martin Luther's theology was really irrelevant.

So, he keeps Martin Luther incommunicator for a year. When Luther emerges, he is shocked. The reformation took off without him. The peasants took it and ran with it. They transfered Martin Luther's ideas about religious freedom to political freedom. So, Luther emerged to chaos and he was appalled. He actually came out in opposition to the actions of the peasants and because of him a lot of peasants died.

So, while Luther sparked the reformation.. he didn't lead it.


----------

