# Women’s Infidelity Book



## TheGoodFight

Women's Infidelity Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

You can get the gist of the book by reading the website.

I spent the afternoon reading this book. I then spent some time searching for discussions on this board about the book. I didn't find much so I apologize if it has been discussed before.

I know others here have read the book. My takeaway is very negative as far as a man wanting to marry a women. I mean who would want to marry knowing this? Anybody else read this book? What did you take away from it?


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## TheGoodFight

For example:

Stage 1

Women at Stage 1 feel as though something is missing in their lives. They have all the things that they wanted—a home, a family, a great husband—but they feel they should be happier. Over time, many women in this stage begin to lose interest in sex. It is not uncommon for them to spend a great deal of energy trying to avoid physical contact with their husbands because they fear it might lead to a sexual encounter. They frequently complain of physical ailments to avoid having sex and often try to avoid going to bed at the same time as their husbands. They view sex as a job, not unlike doing the dishes or going to the grocery store. Some women in Stage 1 claim they feel violated when their husbands touch them. Their bodies freeze up and they feel tightness in their chest and/or a sick feeling in their stomach. The majority of women in Stage 1 feel as though there is something wrong with them, that they are in some way defective. They are also fearful that their disinterest in sex will cause their husbands to cheat, or worse yet, leave them. 



Stage 2

Women at Stage 2 experience reawakened desire stimulated by an encounter outside the marital relationship. Whether these encounters with a "new" man involves sex or remain platonic, women will typically give a tremendous amount of emotional significance to these encounters. 

Many women in this stage haven't felt any sexual desire for a long time. Many experience tremendous guilt and regret, regardless of whether their new relationships are sexual, merely emotional, or both. Most begin to experience what could be termed an identity crisis—even those who try to put the experience behind them. Constant reminders are everywhere. They feel guilt when the topic of infidelity arises, whether in the media, in conversations with family and friends, or at home with their husbands. Women in this stage can no longer express their prior disdain for infidelity without feeling like a hypocrite. They feel as though they have lost a part of themselves. Reflecting society’s belief that women are either “good” or “bad,” women will question their “good girl” status and feel that they might not be deserving of their husbands. Many will try to overcome feelings of guilt by becoming more attentive toward and appreciative of their husbands. However, over time many women will move from appreciation to justification. In order to justify their continued desire for other men, women will begin to attribute these desires to needs that are not being met in their marriage, or to their husband’s past behavior. Many women will become negative and sarcastic when speaking of their husbands and their marriages and it is not uncommon for an extramarital affair to follow.



Stage 3

Women at Stage 3 are involved in affairs, ending affairs, or contemplating divorce. Women who are having affairs experience feelings unlike anything they have experienced before. They feel “alive” again and many believe they have found their soul mates. These women are experiencing feelings associated with a chemically altered state, or what is typically referred to as being in love. 

These women are also typically in tremendous pain, the pain of choosing between their husbands and their new love interests. They typically believe that what they are doing is wrong and unfair to their husbands, but yet are unable to end their affairs. Many often try several times. Prior to meeting with their lovers, they will vow that it will be the last time, but they are unable to stick with their decisions. 

Unable to end their extramarital relationships, women at Stage 3 conclude that their lovers are soul mates because they are unaware that they have become addicted to the high caused by chemicals released during the initial stages of a relationship. Many live in a state of limbo for years. “Should I stay married or should I get a divorce?” this is the question continuously on the minds of women at Stage 3 - it is also common for women at this stage to attempt to initiate a separation. In most cases, husbands of women at Stage 3, will launch futile attempts to make their wives happy by being more attentive, spending more time at home and helping out around the house. Regardless of women’s past and present complaints, the last thing women at Stage 3 want, is to spend more time with their husbands. 

The reason many women will give for their desire to separate is a “search for self.” They convince their husbands that they might be able to save their marriage if they can just have time to themselves. They tell their husbands that time apart is the only hope of improving their current situation. Women at this stage want to free themselves of the restrictions of marriage and spend more time with their lovers. Most think that eventually their confusion will disappear. They think they will eventually know with certainty whether they want to stay married or get divorced and be with their lovers. Separation allows women at this stage, to enjoy the high they experience with their lovers without giving up the security of their marriages. Husbands of Stage 3 women are often unaware that their wives are having affairs. Their lack of suspicion is typically due to their wife’s disinterest in sex and in their belief that their wife is a “good girl.”

Women at Stage 3 may also be experiencing the ending of an extramarital affair, and the ending may not have been their decision. They may have been involved with single men who either lost interest because the relationship could not progress or who became attracted to another women who was single. Women whose affairs are ending often experience extreme grief. They may become deeply depressed and express tremendous anger toward their husbands. They are typically unaware that they are experiencing chemical withdrawal due to sudden changes in their brain chemistry. As a result, many will feel that they have missed their chance at happiness due to their indecisiveness. 

Believing they have become more aware of what they want and need from a mate, women at this stage will often place the utmost importance on finding a "new" relationship that will give them the feeling they experienced in their affairs. A new relationship with a new partner will also represent a clean slate, a chance for these women to regain their “good girl” status. Some women will search for new partners during their separations. Others will return to their marriages, but not emotionally and still continue to search. Some women will resume sporadic sexual relations with their husbands in an effort to safeguard their marriage until they make a decision. Although they are often not sexually attracted to their husbands, desire is temporarily rekindled when they suspect their husbands are unfaithful, are contemplating infidelity, or when their husbands show signs of moving on.



Stage 4

The women in stage four included those who chose to stay married and continue their affairs and those who chose to divorce. Some of the women who continued their affairs stated that marital sex was improved by maintaining the extramarital relationship. Some thought the lover was a soul mate, but for one reason or another did not leave their husband and did not feel torn between the two. Others realized that their feelings were intensified by not sharing day-to-day living arrangements with their lover. Almost all of the women in this latter category were having affairs with married men. They believed their affairs could continue indefinitely without disrupting either partner’s primary relationship. 

The women who chose divorce and were in the beginning stages of a new relationship typically expressed relief at having finally made a decision and reported feeling normal again. Many of the divorced women who had remarried and were several years into their new marriages seemed somewhat reluctant to talk about the specifics of their past experiences. However, they did mention feelings of guilt and regret for having hurt their children and ex-spouses only to find themselves experiencing similar feelings in the new relationship.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

brings back some bad memories.... It was one of the first things I stumbled across when I discovered my xw's affair. It nailed it dead on the head... I pointed her to this information during the initial stages, after dday1 or 2... during one her waffling sessions about trying to r.... I recall clearly her response... "wow, yes, it does sound exactly like how I feel and have felt... but.... What if it's not that what if this is real?"

Uggggg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hookares

I consider the women in stage 4 who choose to stay in the sham marriage and continue the affair (s) to be the greediest of all. 
If they can conceal their infidelity, they will often insist that their dimwit work longer hours or find part time work in order to finance their extracurricular events.


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## TDSC60

I haven't read the book, but I did stumble across the website many months ago. I think it is a legitimate study and the conclusions are supported by case studies and interviews.

I think I read that the author interviewed several hundreds of women, over a period of several years, who admitted to an affair so what you are seeing is a study of infidelity based on the experiences of self admitted cheaters. 

That said, I am betting that it is not at all uncommon for women to have the initial feelings of unhappiness with no apparent reason. 

That does not mean they continue to follow the script until they have an affair. 

Years ago my wife said that she "was not happy and did not know why". She told me that it was the way she felt and she did not understand those feelings. I asked if I had done something (or failed to do something) all she would say was it was not anything that I had done or not done. 

I don't think she had an affair, but she may have. I was traveling almost every week for a couple of days for work at that time. The kids were in school so she had plenty of time to herself. But after reading the website and recognizing what happened to us, I was left with a lingering doubt about that time in my marriage. Took me a long time to accept that I would never know if she did or didn't unless she admitted it (which will never happen - it was a long time ago).

After being diagnosed as being depressed and put on medication she got better eventually.

So website was very disturbing to me. I didn't order the book.

Edit: I forgot to include that during this time my wife became convinced that I was having affairs. I traveled a lot as I have said. She was convinced that I had a girl waiting for me in every city I went to. It got so bad I almost dreaded coming home because I knew I was going to face a couple of days of accusations and ill temper.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Lol. She tried the suggestion about me getting another job (for the family, lol)... but her dimwit hubby had already come too... I had began to realize I was under the gas by that point. No more lies and self denial were taking me back under... Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Does the book just describe what happens or does it say why and what to do about it. Certainly explains a lot of relationsips we see here. Especially the script for waywards that have been married for a quite a while.

Does the book give solutions for reigniting the marriage?


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## TheGoodFight

chapparal said:


> Does the book just describe what happens or does it say why and what to do about it. Certainly explains a lot of relationsips we see here. Especially the script for waywards that have been married for a quite a while.
> 
> Does the book give solutions for reigniting the marriage?


It's mostly a desciption of what happens. The key I think the book is trying to get across is that women have to realize for themselves what is actually going on. I thought this part was interesting:

"However, they did mention feelings of guilt and regret for having hurt their children and ex-spouses only to find themselves experiencing similar feelings in the new relationship."

The premise of the book is that sexually, women change over time to have higher testosterone levels which makes them want sex more. And when they start feeling sexual attraction for men other than their husbands, they confuse that with love because they have the mistaken belief that they shouldn't be attracted sexualy to someone that they don't love.

It seems that these women who jumped ship to a new man and then found themselves in the same situation are learning the hard way what the difference is between infatuation and love. As men, we already know this because we are horn dogs starting much earlier in life.


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## TheGoodFight

Oh and this:



> *Did you interview anyone who made it through this?*
> 
> Yes, I did. I interviewed two men who handled themselves
> much differently than most of the men I talked to over the years.
> 
> The first man took the initiative and filed for divorce after his wife expressed on several occasions that she was unhappy and considering a separation. Before the divorce was final, his wife was trying to reconcile, but he chose not to because of her disinterest in working on the marriage prior to his filing for divorce.
> 
> The other man dealt similarly with the problem, but he had an advantage. He had experienced a similar situation with his first wife. In that instance he lived in limbo for two years, doing everything he could to hold on to his wife, but nothing worked. Six years later he married again.
> 
> Three years into that relationship, the second wife began to express her unhappiness. Though doubtful that he could endure the trauma of a second divorce, he took control and prevented any period of limbo.
> 
> He saw the similarities between his first and second wife’s behavior and figured out right away that his second wife was seeing someone. He told her if she stopped her affair he would be willing to work on the marriage; however, he would not accept anything less than her whole-hearted effort. He insisted that separation was not an option because he recognized that separation is just a prelude to a divorce. He wrote his wife a letter and listed the changes that would have to occur in order for him to stay in the marriage. He gave me a copy of it. I will read a portion of his letter to you.
> 
> “Complaining is no longer acceptable. If you want me to do (or not do) something, you must tell me what it is. I do not expect you to read my mind and I will no longer try to read yours. If you want to have a mature, committed relationship you can expect one-hundred percent effort on my part; however, I will not allow my spirit to deteriorate because of your indecision.”
> 
> His letter was direct and he set clear boundaries. Because he had been through the process before, he understood what his wife was doing even better than she did.


So my conclusion based on the above is that the common advice given here on this board to take action immediately and do a 180 is right on.


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## EleGirl

Sounds like an interesting book.

From what is said here, it's really not a lot different from what men go through who end up cheating.. except that most men do not lose interest in sex on all levels. A cheater might still have sex with his wife but his passion for her is gone.. he's not makeing love to her.. he's using her to get his rocks off.

And some men do lose interest in sex with their wives just as this book says women do. Look at the fairly high number of women where who complain that their husbands do not want sex at all or very seldom.


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## TheGoodFight

True. But part of the problem according to the book is that women often times enter into marriage with unrealistic expectations.

My wife says that these sections hit home:



> Females want to wear the dress and have the wedding. Women like the idea of getting married. Many women have looked forward to that day their whole lives, which ultimately sets them up for a huge crash.
> 
> Most women are happiest when focused on fulfilling some part of the get-married-and-live-happily-ever-after fantasy. They are content, even in relatively unfulfilling relationships, as long some part of the fantasy is left to play out.
> 
> First, women focus on getting the man, then they focus on planning the wedding, then they focus on being a good wife and buying and decorating a house, then they focus on having a baby and, finally, they focus on why they wanted all this in the first place.
> 
> Contrary to popular assumption, women don’t put nearly as much effort into their relationships with their boyfriends and husbands as they put into trying to accomplish their goal of getting married and becoming a wife and mother. It’s only after they’ve accomplished these goals that they begin to evaluate the relationship itself.





> Taking into consideration that the high we get from our partners may be all but gone after four years, and keeping in mind that women enter their sexual peak in their late twenties and early thirties, you can understand that just from a biological standpoint marital fidelity can actually be more difficult for women than it is for men. Men who marry in their mid-to-late twenties are moving away from their sexual prime, while women of the same age are just reaching theirs.
> 
> Women who marry in their mid-twenties can experience a biological double-whammy—hitting their sexual prime coupled with the natural waning of sexual desire for their partner.
> 
> However, these are just the biological factors. From a psychological standpoint, many women also get hit twice—first by the letdown the occurs when marriage fails to meet their unrealistic expectations, and second by a fear of getting older, which many women experience as they approach thirty.


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## EHuntIMF

Its really to think this will eventually happen to every married man who is faithful to his wife. Is there any help at all?


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## TheGoodFight

EHuntIMF said:


> Its really to think this will eventually happen to every married man who is faithful to his wife. Is there any help at all?


I think the hope is here:



> It is my opinion that women’s lack of knowledge about their natural sexual impulses makes them much more likely than men to leave their marriages due to their sexual attractions and affairs.


So I think if you can get a women to realize that it's normal for her to be sexualy attracted to other men, then maybe they will realize that jumping from sex partner to sex partner looking for "Mr. Right" is futile. Women seem to think that if they find "Mr. Right" then they will never have any attraction to anybody else.

They have to realize that fidelity is a choice. It's not automatic. It's like an "ah-ha" moment.


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## Hoosier

> However, they did mention feelings of guilt and regret for having hurt their children and ex-spouses only to find themselves experiencing similar feelings in the new relationship."


Interested in this part as well. What is being said here? Is it saying that the WS just finds themself with a new partner with the same bad feelings that had with their xspouse? Meaning they get a new partner only to find it doesnt change things?

This is interesting reading, as my xw of 30 year marriage, DD 7/2011, must of read this manual, as she is spot on. Her problem would be is that she would never understand about the infacuation part. she was to busy blaming me for all that was wrong with her life. I wonder a lot if she is ever going to realize that it was just not me. I wonder if she ever misses our relationship, just wish I had the four year period of time to get ready for it to end, like she did. (told me that she gave up on us 4 years ago, never told me)
Do I also read that the ones who divorced are the best off of the lot? My xw filed one day after dday, became final 82 days later. Maybe she got that part right.... 
I go on trying to seperate her and I mentally, still think in terms of "we" instead of me....30 years calls for a lot of reprogramming....


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## working_together

Some of that really hit home for me. Wow.


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## TheGoodFight

I think it means that these women believe that the sexual feelings of a new relationship will last, and when they don't, they either think they made another bad choice and didn't find Mr. Right after all, or maybe they realize that maintaining those feelings actually takes work and they go on to have happier second marriages. 

It seems to me that if they never figure it out they are doomed to either jump from relationship to relationship looking for that high or they stay in their current relationships and resign themselves to being unhappy.

I think the ah-ha moment is when people realize that they must work to create their own happiness within the boundries of the commitments they have made.


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## TheGoodFight

working_together said:


> Some of that really hit home for me. Wow.


Care to share? I'd be interested in what parts you found relevant?


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## Saffron

Think it's important to remember this is not _all_ women, just those that did cheat and their thought process behind it.

I'm been married 15 years and faithful the whole time, my H is the one who cheated. I'm a very sexual person, so that is or was not a problem in our marriage. My H fully admits, he probably would've had sex with the OW more often if we didn't have such a great sex life, it was more about the ego boost for him.

That being said, I wonder if the train of thought of these women are similar to the trrain of thought in male cheaters too. More like a "cheating mentality" regardless of male or female. 

One of the things my H revealed after d-day, he never really thought past the wedding and our first child when he asked me to marry him. Sure enough, once life got hard after the birth of our daughter, he had his first affair (confessed first affair after d-day for second). He didn't envision the long haul, of us becoming older and getting into a rut. He didn't ponder that life would have difficulty, women would come on to him, or that someone new might be a temptation. I've always known this and was hypervigilant to avoid temptation or crossing boundaries. Commitment is commitment. I don't think everyone truly gets the meaning of the world when they get married and those are the ones who tend to cheat.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

EHuntIMF said:


> Its really to think this will eventually happen to every married man who is faithful to his wife. Is there any help at all?



Based on what I've been through and a year of research on my own....NO. If they are going to go and don't have any reason to, they'll convince themselves that there is and go anyway.


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## Almostrecovered

definitely smacks of my situation as well
wife cheated at 33, she was just hitting her sexual peak


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## TheGoodFight

^^ That's interesting. I think you're right of course that this does not apply to all women. I'm looking at this from the point of view of trying to understand MY wife. 

I do think this tends to be a female problem though of not realizing that they are giving up the potential for multiple partners when they marry.

She says:



> To say that marriage supports a woman’s primary sexual fantasy is ridiculous. Unfortunately, prior to marriage many women mistakenly think that marriage will not require a sexual sacrifice on their part.


It's interesting that you mention ego. Here is what I read about that:



> It’s not about sex, it’s about the ego. Whether it’s the man who loses sexual desire, or the woman, it creates ego problems for the spouse. The desire to have sex becomes obsessive to the one, while the desire not to have sex becomes obsessive to the other. Eventually, these feelings and behaviors become habitual in the relationship.


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## Jen's Husband

I've seen this site before and it really hit home for me as well. My wife hasn't cheated per se, either EA or PA, but has admitted with the help of a counselor that she was headed in that direction. I never had the words to understand this until I read the description on the site (not the book though). My impression was that she was basically in the early stages of this process and that she simply hadn't found the right man to move on to stage 3 and beyond. It's scary to me that so much of this is the same pattern, and therefore I think biological at some level. I think also that even very good marriages (not mine necessarily, though we weren't all that bad either) can fall prey to this pattern when a wife's mindset heads in this direction.


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## Gabriel

While this is interesting, doesn't it fly in the face of people who say women cheat because their EMOTIONAL needs aren't being met? 

It seems conventional wisdom has usually been that men cheat for sex, women cheat because of lack of emotional intimacy. This talk above is the exact opposite.

While men's sex drive decreases as they get older, there are plenty of middle aged dudes who cheat just to get a piece and want nothing else.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

"Emotional needs" is an undefinable open basket of excuses that allows a carte blanche for bad behavior. Ask any LBS about how their "emotional needs" were being met, and yet they did not cheat. ;~)


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## COguy

So after reading the site, I'm wowed at how closely she mirrored my wife.

I know this has been asked before, but what do you do about it? I mean how do you get them from succumbing to this trap?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

If one had read this stuff before there was any inkling something was going off, yeah maybe one could by working very hard at keeping communication going when the wife hits here mid to late 30's. But most of us are so busy splitting responsibilities at this point in life ( you take johnny to scouts, I take jenny to swimming class) it's hard to find time to sit down and say "Okay how have we been doing this week, you okay with things?"


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## TheGoodFight

I don't know what you do about it honestly. I think if your wife is already in an affair then this info might just fall on deaf ears. It might even fall on deaf ears for a women who hasn't reached the point of "being unhappy" yet.

I think it could be beneficial for a women who has had an affair though. I was more looking at it from the "trying to understand what happened and how to keep it from happening again" perspective.


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## Complexity

This is really frightening


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

Complexity said:


> This is really frightening


Sure is, I read their web page the day after the bomb drop and said to myself "Well, I'm fuuked".
Since then what they stated is bang on to what happened next. Make one wonder about any long term relationship being happy. I know I'll never marry again, I would have bet my children's lives and my own against this happening to my marriage of 22 years. I was that sure of her commitment to me.


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## Complexity

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Sure is, I read their web page the day after the bomb drop and said to myself "Well, I'm fuuked".
> Since then what they stated is bang on to what happened next. Make one wonder about any long term relationship being happy. I know I'll never marry again, I would have bet my children's lives and my own against this happening to my marriage of 22 years. I was that sure of her commitment to me.


What pains me the most is that there are husbands out there who adored their wives, were men and provided for them, were there for them emotionally but _still_ that wasn't good enough. Even those wives who complain of emotional neglect but know their husbands are good men on the inside, I don't know how they can rationalise cheating given the HUGE disparity in pain it would cause.

It's like no matter what you do, it's just not enough.

You're right about remarriage.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Sure is, I read their web page the day after the bomb drop and said to myself "Well, I'm fuuked".
> Since then what they stated is bang on to what happened next. Make one wonder about any long term relationship being happy. I know I'll never marry again, I would have bet my children's lives and my own against this happening to my marriage of 22 years. I was that sure of her commitment to me.


lol. My exact thought after seeing this arcticle right after dday was... "f*ck" followed by "sigh...."


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## TheGoodFight

I like this comment about the book I found on another site:



> That said....the problem is not bad marriages but unrealistic expectations coupled with a lack of integrity and commitment. All marriages have their rough spots but too few women today understand the meaning of accountability.
> 
> When a marriage is having problems, instead of looking to themselves to see what they can do or change, they immediately place the blame upon their husbands. Instead of taking responsibility for their own happiness and working out that responsibility within the bounds of their marriage and the commitments they have made, they use their marriage as a scapegoat, allowing it and their husbands to shoulder the blame while they seek happiness and fulfillment in greener pastures. Of course, they generally find out those pastures aren't any greener than the ones they left.
> 
> Unfortunately, this journey to happiness, fulfillment and "finding herself" creates some very heavy casualties along the way, the greatest of which being her husband and children.
> 
> If women considered marriage a lifetime commitment, for better or for worse, they would weather through the bad times. Marriage and parenthood are messy and difficult, but they're also intensely and indescribably rewarding and fulfilling. Four years isn't long enough to even begin to appreciate the depth of what a marriage and true commitment are.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

It seems our biggest crimes as being husbands to someone who's in a MLC is being dependable, faithful and trusting. When I think back now of all the times I turned down advances from women, I wonder how many were going through this same thing....Makes me ill to think of it.


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## Stilltrying1

WOW. I saw elements of Stages I, II, and III in the emails from my wife's long-distance EA. She pined sexually for the OM, indicating her desire for him was unlike that she had felt for any other man. 

At the same time we were in a significant drought sexually, though we never went completely sexless. Though the EA is no longer active (can you ever say it is over?) I have to wonder what will keep her from having those feelings again--for him or for someone else?

This is both illuminating and frightening at the same time.


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## TheGoodFight

Stilltrying1 said:


> ... Though the EA is no longer active (can you ever say it is over?) I have to wonder what will keep her from having those feelings again--for him or for someone else?


According to the book, it's like you asking how can you keep yourself from finding another woman attractive. Of course you can't unless you're dead. You just make the choice not to act on it.

The only difference may be that you recognize it as lust while your wife thinks it is love because she believes that she would not be attracted to someone sexually unless she loved them.

It probably wasn't the initial attraction that snared your wife. It was the fact that she didn't realize that she could be taken in by it, and once she started getting those affair drugs, it was hard to quit.

I think the only way to avoid another affair is to simply make the choice not to be involved in one.


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## UCanTalk

I wonder if the issue is more about mismatched emotional needs. Men want sex and woman want affection. Give woman affection in the way thay want it and with time the man will get nice sex, give the man nice sex and with time the woman will get affection. Its a chicken and egg situation and with time becomes a powerplay with neither party prepared to give the other what they need and want.


My wife has just read the first few chapters of "his needs her needs" to me and it describes the crazy dynamic weve had going for 27 years. How we got this far i dont know but things are on the up. I wish i had this realisation 26 years ago.


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## Jen's Husband

Complexity said:


> What pains me the most is that there are husbands out there who adored their wives, were men and provided for them, were there for them emotionally but _still_ that wasn't good enough. Even those wives who complain of emotional neglect but know their husbands are good men on the inside, I don't know how they can rationalise cheating given the HUGE disparity in pain it would cause.
> 
> It's like no matter what you do, it's just not enough.
> 
> You're right about remarriage.


This is spot on. I think this is what bothers me the most about things, despite not having lost nearly as much as some folks here. I've been the one bending over backwards for years to give her exactly what she said she needs in the given moment and it amounted to nothing. Even when we fight, her greatest complaint now is my failure to forget whatever wrong she's done and also to get back to fulfilling her various materialistic hopes and dreams. What bothers me and is always in the back of my mind is that my wife heads down the path described in the book each and every time I've stumbled as a husband. I told her last weekend that I feel like I'm one of those plate-spinning guys, and she's the audience, and she's reserved the right to walk out forever anytime I let even one plate wobble. She of course has no problem adding more plates whenever I start to get to a point of thinking I've got things under control. I think I'm going to change things up.


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## Gabriel

TheGoodFight said:


> According to the book, it's like you asking how can you keep yourself from finding another woman attractive. Of course you can't unless you're dead. You just make the choice not to act on it.
> 
> The only difference may be that you recognize it as lust while your wife thinks it is love because she believes that she would not be attracted to someone sexually unless she loved them.
> 
> It probably wasn't the initial attraction that snared your wife. It was the fact that she didn't realize that she could be taken in by it, and once she started getting those affair drugs, it was hard to quit.
> 
> I think the only way to avoid another affair is to simply make the choice not to be involved in one.


:iagree::iagree:

I've always understood that I have weaknesses and if presented with one opportunity after another I could break someday. And this is exactly why I do whatever I can to avoid these opportuntiies. I just don't let them in. Build your boundary walls very high in this regard, and then what happens outside the walls doesn't matter, because it can't get in.


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## working_together

I have to agree that for me it was never really about the sex, it was about the ego boost. 

I'm not sure why it happened at 42, and not during my 30's. I really didn't feel different during my 20's and 30's, I was pretty happy with my life, my goals etc. It was like 42 was a crisis, I felt stuck at home with two very small children, when I should have been working on my career. I thought I would never get it back even when they went to school. And yet the thought of daycare brought so much guilt. Of course I was wrong about this, but it's the corrupted thinking that went on, the doom and gloom, "is this all there is".

I remember the time leading up to my affair, we were not intimate for months, and I did not care, I did not want to be touched by anyone, I didn't feel violated, but got nothing out of sex during that time. This was new for me, I thought something was wrong with me. My husband thought I was tired from two young kids, but I guess it was more than that. My husband I have recently talked (after his anger had subsided) about what went on with me, with "us". He says that we were overwhelmed with small children at an older age, him 48, and we had no support, his parents were dead, my mom handicapped. And we were living on one income. We also forgot that we were a couple, not just parents. Was it the reason I had an affair, obviously no, but drifting apart didn't help.

I wonder if people realize that sexual problems are a big red flag in a relationship. People tend to avoid the issue, it'll just go away on it's own type of thing.

I agree as a woman I thought it was love, soul mates, the whole thing. But as time went on I realized it was total infactuation. 

What scares me is that if my marriage fails, will I be destined to never be happy in any relationship. I guess that's where IC becomes helpful.


----------



## Jellybeans

The stages are pretty spot on. 

My story: my marriage sucked at the time of my A. I had been asking my H for a looooooong time to go to MC with me and he outright refused and told me that my feelings did not matter to him and that my opinions did not mean anything to him, that he was going to do whatever he wanted and that if I did not like, I could leave. He would constantly threaten me with D and I felt really small. I can't relate to the women who have affairs who's husbands treated
them well and went above & beyond to try to work things out because that was not my experience--in fact, those cases baffle me. Nonetheless, I took the pvssy way out and had an A. It wasn't about sex for me. Someone was telling me a lot of pretty things, things my H did not tell me. I felt..listened to for the first time in a long time, like my feelings mattered, like I mattered. I felt respected. Something I did not feel in my marriage for a long time. but none of this excuses the A. I ended it all on my own, of my own volition and told my H about it. 

My boundaries are SO much better now. Granted, I'm no longer in a marriage (we divorced) but I learned some pretty amazing things from the experience...and here at TAM. 

I think anyone can have an A--if they choose it. There is nothing you can do to STOP your partner from cheating, because in the end, it's up to them entirely. Women do hold their emotional needs tightly to their chest. So much. When things are good emotionally for a woman in a relationship, the sky is the limit. When that lacks, it's not a good thing. For me, my libido is even higher when I feel emotionally tied to someone. Even the sex drive wanes if the emotional aspect is gone.


----------



## TheGoodFight

working_together said:


> What scares me is that if my marriage fails, will I be destined to never be happy in any relationship.


What makes you say this?


----------



## Jellybeans

COguy said:


> I know this has been asked before, but what do you do about it? I mean how do you get them from succumbing to this trap?



It's entirely up to the individual if they are going to "succumb" to this or not. It's a choice.


----------



## Jellybeans

TheGoodFight said:


> What makes you say this?


I think she means that she is worried it will become a pattern for her if her marriage fails (chasing the "love high" and then realizes it fades and on and on).


----------



## TheGoodFight

Jellybeans said:


> The stages are pretty spot on.
> 
> My story: my marriage sucked at the time of my A. I had been asking my H for a looooooong time to go to MC with me and he outright refused and told me that my feelings did not matter to him and that my opinions did not mean anything to him, that he was going to do whatever he wanted and that if I did not like, I could leave. He would constantly threaten me with D and I felt really small. I can't relate to the women who have affairs who's husbands treated
> them well and went above & beyond to try to work things out because that was not my experience--in fact, those cases baffle me. Nonetheless, I took the pvssy way out and had an A. It wasn't about sex for me. Someone was telling me a lot of pretty things, things my H did not tell me. I felt..listened to for the first time in a long time, like my feelings mattered, like I mattered. I felt respected. Something I did not feel in my marriage for a long time. but none of this excuses the A. I ended it all on my own, of my own volition and told my H about it.
> 
> My boundaries are SO much better now. Granted, I'm no longer in a marriage (we divorced) but I learned some pretty amazing things from the experience...and here at TAM.
> 
> I think anyone can have an A--if they choose it. There is nothing you can do to STOP your partner from cheating, because in the end, it's up to them entirely. Women do hold their emotional needs tightly to their chest. So much. When things are good emotionally for a woman in a relationship, the sky is the limit. When that lacks, it's not a good thing. For me, my libido is even higher when I feel emotionally tied to someone. Even the sex drive wanes if the emotional aspect is gone.


You say the stages are spot on, yet being bored with your husband as a sex partner didn't seem to be what drove you to cheat. Working said the same thing.

Am I as a man not reading the stages correctly? I'm reading it more along the lines of women find out that they have sexual attraction for another man and then mistake that attraction for love and begin to question their choice to be married in the first place.


----------



## TheGoodFight

Jellybeans said:


> I think she means that she is worried it will become a pattern for her if her marriage fails (chasing the "love high" and then realizes it fades and on and on).


So even having this information at hand does not change how she feels about that? Wouldn't she only be doomed if she was naive about infatuation, which she now is clearly not?


----------



## working_together

Jellybeans said:


> The stages are pretty spot on.
> 
> My story: my marriage sucked at the time of my A. I had been asking my H for a looooooong time to go to MC with me and he outright refused and told me that my feelings did not matter to him and that my opinions did not mean anything to him, that he was going to do whatever he wanted and that if I did not like, I could leave. He would constantly threaten me with D and I felt really small. I can't relate to the women who have affairs who's husbands treated
> them well and went above & beyond to try to work things out because that was not my experience--in fact, those cases baffle me. Nonetheless, I took the pvssy way out and had an A. It wasn't about sex for me. Someone was telling me a lot of pretty things, things my H did not tell me. I felt..listened to for the first time in a long time, like my feelings mattered, like I mattered. I felt respected. Something I did not feel in my marriage for a long time. but none of this excuses the A. I ended it all on my own, of my own volition and told my H about it.
> 
> My boundaries are SO much better now. Granted, I'm no longer in a marriage (we divorced) but I learned some pretty amazing things from the experience...and here at TAM.
> 
> I think anyone can have an A--if they choose it. There is nothing you can do to STOP your partner from cheating, because in the end, it's up to them entirely. Women do hold their emotional needs tightly to their chest. So much. When things are good emotionally for a woman in a relationship, the sky is the limit. When that lacks, it's not a good thing. For me, my libido is even higher when I feel emotionally tied to someone. Even the sex drive wanes if the emotional aspect is gone.


Yeah, I don't get why women would have affairs when their husband caters to their every need. Or when people say their marriages were wonderful prior to the affair. However, what about the fact that maybe a woman chooses not to see what her husband is doing for her. My husband helped around the house, did dishes, vac. We split a lot of responsibilites. But I didn't feel respected or appreciated.


----------



## Jellybeans

GoodFight:

For me, the attraction in the OM was mental/emotional. So in that stage about it being solely sex. attraction, I can't relate to that. 

But affairs are about egos--it's kind of like looking into a mirror and seeing only good things looking back at you. And this isn't gender-specific. Men who cheat say the same thing. The AP makes them "feel good/respected/desired." 

Anyone can be sexually attracted to someone else. It's human nature. Whether you act on it is what it all boils down to.


----------



## TheGoodFight

working_together said:


> Yeah, I don't get why women would have affairs when their husband caters to their every need. Or when people say their marriages were wonderful prior to the affair.


According to this book, it's because they want some "strange" and they don't know how to handle it because it's never been an issue in their lives before.


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> What makes you say this?


Well, when reading stage 4, women go on to have other relationships, or get married. But still have guilt over what they did. The other aspect is having "similar feelings", it's kind of like once you had an affair you're screwed no matter what. You have life long guilt in your marriage. You move on and the guilt is still there. And to top it off, the women never seemed to get over their unhappiness.

I was really scared at the beginning of R that I would never be attracted to my husband again. But luckily it did, I can't imagine if it didn't and still stay in the marriage.


----------



## Jellybeans

working_together said:


> Yeah, I don't get why women would have affairs when their husband caters to their every need. Or when people say their marriages were wonderful prior to the affair. However, what about the fact that maybe a woman chooses not to see what her husband is doing for her. My husband helped around the house, did dishes, vac. We split a lot of responsibilites. But I didn't feel respected or appreciated.


I can't speak on behalf of "good marriages" -- or rather, those that say they had a great marriage/helpful around the house hubby. But I have read before that people in good marriages can have affairs, it's just that was not my experience. 

Re: the respect thing--I can relate to you in that sense. I did NOT feel my husband respected me as a woman, as an equal, as a partner. He held me to a different standard than himself. There were days I did not want to come home from work, days that I would literally cry in front of him telling him I felt very disrespected by his treatment of me & he would tell me to move, to get out of his way, because he was not interested in speaking to me. He would literally spend days and weeks w/o saying a single word to me. Emotionally, I felt dead in my marriage. I once told him I was praying for our marriage and he scoffed and said 'Your prayers aren't going to help a thing." 

Once a loss of respect develops for a partner, resentment builds and then it snowballs. It's no good. This is why a woman should feel respected by her partner and vice versa.


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> According to this book, it's because they want some "strange" and they don't know how to handle it because it's never been an issue in their lives before.


I never thought of getting some "strange" before my affair, my husband was my only sexual partner, and I was fine with it. He actually wanted me to have another experience and talked about it for years, he kept asking me "do you feel you're missing out on something". I'd say no. But when my life sucked, and the oprotunity basically knocked on my door, it was a different story.


----------



## working_together

Jellybeans said:


> I can't speak on behalf of "good marriages" -- or rather, those that say they had a great marriage/helpful around the house hubby. But I have read before that people in good marriages can have affairs, it's just that was not my experience.
> 
> Re: the respect thing--I can relate to you in that sense. I did NOT feel my husband respected me as a woman, as an equal, as a partner. He held me to a different standard than himself. There were days I did not want to come home from work, days that I would literally cry in front of him telling him I felt very disrespected by his treatment of me & he would tell me to move, to get out of his way, because he was not interested in speaking to me. He would literally spend days and weeks w/o saying a single word to me. Emotionally, I felt dead in my marriage. I once told him I was praying for our marriage and he scoffed and said 'Your prayers aren't going to help a thing."
> 
> Once a loss of respect develops for a partner, resentment builds and then it snowballs. It's no good. This is why a woman should feel respected by her partner and vice versa.


That's rough.


----------



## Jellybeans

Working, I think you need to identify WHY your life sucked exactly and get some IC to help you deal with that so in the future you don't repeat this pattern. Also, MC is a good idea. You have to work on developing better boundaries and commit to not being in the situation again. Also, it's interesting your hubby asked if you felt you were missing something! I bet he regrets telling you that.


----------



## Jellybeans

working_together said:


> That's rough.


It was. I am still dealing w/ the fall out. He was very emotionally abusive and it was not anything I had ever dealt with before. His silent treatments, more than when he slept w/ someone else, really really fvcked me up in the head. When we separated, he had not spoken a word to me in 1.5 month.


----------



## Jen's Husband

Jellybeans said:


> I can't speak on behalf of "good marriages" -- or rather, those that say they had a great marriage/helpful around the house hubby. But I have read before that people in good marriages can have affairs, it's just that was not my experience.
> 
> Re: the respect thing--I can relate to you in that sense. *I did NOT feel my husband respected me as a woman, as an equal, as a partner. He held me to a different standard than himself.* There were days I did not want to come home from work, days that I would literally cry in front of him telling him I felt very disrespected by his treatment of me & he would tell me to move, to get out of his way, because he was not interested in speaking to me. He would literally spend days and weeks w/o saying a single word to me. Emotionally, I felt dead in my marriage. I once told him I was praying for our marriage and he scoffed and said 'Your prayers aren't going to help a thing."
> 
> Once a loss of respect develops for a partner, resentment builds and then it snowballs. It's no good. This is why a woman should feel respected by her partner and vice versa.


This makes sense. What bothers me in terms of my own marriage is that my wife says the same thing all the time. That her reasons (when there are any) relate to the fact that she feels I don't respect her, or that I don't treat her as an equal. But if anything, I treat her better than I treat myself. I don't doubt what you say in terms of your marriage, but I wonder how often this way of thinking occurs no matter how good or bad the wife is treated.


----------



## TheGoodFight

Jellybeans said:


> GoodFight:
> 
> For me, the attraction in the OM was mental/emotional. So in that stage about it being solely sex. attraction, I can't relate to that.
> 
> But affairs are about egos--it's kind of like looking into a mirror and seeing only good things looking back at you. And this isn't gender-specific. Men who cheat say the same thing. The AP makes them "feel good/respected/desired."


But isn't what you are describing nothing more than "new relationship buzz". Everything is wonderful and exciting when you start a new relationship. It was probably like that back when you first met your husband too, but it wore off.



working_together said:


> I was really scared at the beginning of R that I would never be attracted to my husband again. But luckily it did, I can't imagine if it didn't and still stay in the marriage.


But are you happy without that new relationship buzz? Sure you are attracted to your husband now, but do you think you can ever get that high with your husband that you had with your AP?


----------



## working_together

Jellybeans said:


> Working, I think you need to identify WHY your life sucked exactly and get some IC to help you deal with that so in the future you don't repeat this pattern. Also, MC is a good idea. You have to work on developing better boundaries and commit to not being in the situation again. Also, it's interesting your hubby asked if you felt you were missing something! I bet he regrets telling you that.


MC will be starting very soon. Since we're pretty short on cash, we were in a panic, we obviously need help with communication and other things. Anyway, because he's a counselor, he found out today he can receive 6 sessions free. It's a start.

For me, I have to find another therapist. The first one I had kept delving into my family of origin. We never really talked about the affair, so, yeah, gotta find another one. Hubby says we need to get the therapist to focus more on what we want, it just seems that don't want to.

He's never mentioned the "something missing" in the last year, except upon R.


----------



## Jellybeans

Jen's Husband said:


> This makes sense. What bothers me in terms of my own marriage is that my wife says the same thing all the time. That her reasons (when there are any) relate to the fact that she feels I don't respect her, or that I don't treat her as an equal. But if anything, I treat her better than I treat myself. I don't doubt what you say in terms of your marriage, but I wonder how often this way of thinking occurs no matter how good or bad the wife is treated.


In that case, I would ask your wife SPECIFICALLY what you are doing/have done that has made her feel disrespected/not as an equal. And also ask her what YOU can do to correct it. Then go from there. Also, tell her how YOU feel about what she is saying and tell her what you want and need from her.



TheGoodFight said:


> But isn't what you are describing nothing more than "new relationship buzz".


Yes. Affairs are like a high. 



working_together said:


> For me, I have to find another therapist. The first one I had kept delving into my family of origin. We never really talked about the affair, so, yeah, gotta find another one. Hubby says we need to get the therapist to focus more on what we want, it just seems that don't want to.


Then redirect the convo: "Therapist, I realize you are asking me ?s about my family of origin, but I am here to discuss the the affair and/or XYZ. It's what I am coming to you for and I really want your guidance and listening ears."


----------



## Jellybeans

Related to thread topic:
*
10 common reasons women give for cheating (in order)*

1. Not having her needs met emotionally. This is the most common reason women give. This means, for whatever reason, feeling undervalued, unappreciated, disrespected and generally disconnected. Affection and communication are two of the biggest areas where men can leave women feeling unfulfilled emotionally

2. Resentment. Anger and frustration that women may harbor towards their significant other can create feelings of isolation and loneliness. After a prolonged period, some of these women start to seek companionship elsewhere.

3. Because they can. Many women are disproportionately exposed to men than women in the workplace, as a direct consequence, many have more options and chances to cheat. Like many people, some women just do it because the opportunity struck. Right or wrong were never factored in. This is probably one of the worst reasons given, but true.

4. Because they are longing for better sex. Plenty of cheating women are so unsatisfied with their sexual relationship that they eventually seek fulfillment elsewhere.

5. Revenge. Plenty of cheating women see their actions as a form of justice against a partner who has wronged them in some way.

6. When there seems to be too much "baggage" in the relationship. A woman will only take so much. Unfortunately in the beginning of a relationship a woman can take more because her hormones are surging. Once the honeymoon phase wears off the baggage better wear off as well, otherwise she may start looking at her options. Baggage can be Ex's, out of control kids, overbearing family members, intrusive friends, etc

7. Boredom. Bored women may seek an escape from the mundane. Cheating may be viewed as a way to add some excitement into her life. The thrill of doing something wrong or of potentially getting caught.

8. Feeling unattractive to her partner. If another guy comes along and starts telling her how beautiful she is and how special she, she may start to feel better around him than she feels around her partner. This is especially dangerous because those feelings will cause her to develop an attachment to the other man.

9. Low self-esteem. In general sex is a drug; it makes us feel good. It also makes many of us feel desirable which gives us a false sense of self-esteem. Plenty of women will seek out sex, and lots of it, from many partners as a form of validation. This sense of worth and value is short lived and thus these women are caught continually seeking it out.

10. Some women cheat as sort of an exit strategy. She doesn't want to break up with you verbally so behaviorally she goes out and cheats on you so you break up with her. It's a coward's way out but, in her eyes, it's a way out nonetheless.

How to keep her faithful

Simply be there for her emotionally. This simple solution has the potential to prevent nearly half of the cases of female infidelity. Easy ways to show her you are there for her emotionally can be simply hearing her out and listening to her problems. Do not try to solve her problems but rather just listen to them - maybe even hold her. You can ask her if there is anything that you can do to help but try to avoid jumping in with suggestions. Many times men jump in and start offering suggestions and the woman feels like she is not being heard. Another thing you can do is give her plenty of attention. Never give other women sexual attention - women are generally very jealous and resentful when it comes to this. It is very important that she feels like she is the primary woman in your life. This is critical to keeping her faithful.Read more: Why Women Cheat - ShaveMagazine.com

I personally don't agree that you can "keep" or "make" someone be faithful BUT I do agree if you are there for your woman emotionally, things will be much better in your relationship.


----------



## TheGoodFight

Interesting list. Out of that list, I think my wife would say she was bored.

From the book:



> The chemicals released in our bodies as a result of frequent and regular contact with our sexual partners are similar to the chemicals released to solidify attachment bonds, including the attachment bonds we develop with our children and siblings. This is why over time, many people feel their spouse is like a brother or sister, or a mother or father, instead of a sexual partner.


----------



## Jen's Husband

Jellybeans said:


> *Simply be there for her emotionally. This simple solution has the potential to prevent nearly half of the cases of female infidelity.* Easy ways to show her you are there for her emotionally can be simply hearing her out and listening to her problems. Do not try to solve her problems but rather just listen to them - maybe even hold her. You can ask her if there is anything that you can do to help but try to avoid jumping in with suggestions. Many times men jump in and start offering suggestions and the woman feels like she is not being heard. Another thing you can do is give her plenty of attention. Never give other women sexual attention - women are generally very jealous and resentful when it comes to this. It is very important that she feels like she is the primary woman in your life. This is critical to keeping her faithful.[/COLOR]Read more: Why Women Cheat - ShaveMagazine.com
> 
> I personally don't agree that you can "keep" or "make" someone be faithful BUT I do agree if you are there for your woman emotionally, things will be much better in your relationship.


Interesting article and very thorough, though it seems depressing that being there for a person emotionally will cover "nearly half" of these female infidelity cases.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

Jellybeans said:


> Related to thread topic:
> *
> 10 common reasons women give for cheating (in order)*
> 
> 1. Not having her needs met emotionally. This is the most common reason women give. This means, for whatever reason, feeling undervalued, unappreciated, disrespected and generally disconnected. Affection and communication are two of the biggest areas where men can leave women feeling unfulfilled emotionally
> 
> 2. Resentment. Anger and frustration that women may harbor towards their significant other can create feelings of isolation and loneliness. After a prolonged period, some of these women start to seek companionship elsewhere.
> 
> 3. Because they can. Many women are disproportionately exposed to men than women in the workplace, as a direct consequence, many have more options and chances to cheat. Like many people, some women just do it because the opportunity struck. Right or wrong were never factored in. This is probably one of the worst reasons given, but true.
> 
> 4. Because they are longing for better sex. Plenty of cheating women are so unsatisfied with their sexual relationship that they eventually seek fulfillment elsewhere.
> 
> 5. Revenge. Plenty of cheating women see their actions as a form of justice against a partner who has wronged them in some way.
> 
> 6. When there seems to be too much "baggage" in the relationship. A woman will only take so much. Unfortunately in the beginning of a relationship a woman can take more because her hormones are surging. Once the honeymoon phase wears off the baggage better wear off as well, otherwise she may start looking at her options. Baggage can be Ex's, out of control kids, overbearing family members, intrusive friends, etc
> 
> 7. Boredom. Bored women may seek an escape from the mundane. Cheating may be viewed as a way to add some excitement into her life. The thrill of doing something wrong or of potentially getting caught.
> 
> 8. Feeling unattractive to her partner. If another guy comes along and starts telling her how beautiful she is and how special she, she may start to feel better around him than she feels around her partner. This is especially dangerous because those feelings will cause her to develop an attachment to the other man.
> 
> 9. Low self-esteem. In general sex is a drug; it makes us feel good. It also makes many of us feel desirable which gives us a false sense of self-esteem. Plenty of women will seek out sex, and lots of it, from many partners as a form of validation. This sense of worth and value is short lived and thus these women are caught continually seeking it out.
> 
> 10. Some women cheat as sort of an exit strategy. She doesn't want to break up with you verbally so behaviorally she goes out and cheats on you so you break up with her. It's a coward's way out but, in her eyes, it's a way out nonetheless.
> 
> How to keep her faithful
> 
> Simply be there for her emotionally. This simple solution has the potential to prevent nearly half of the cases of female infidelity. Easy ways to show her you are there for her emotionally can be simply hearing her out and listening to her problems. Do not try to solve her problems but rather just listen to them - maybe even hold her. You can ask her if there is anything that you can do to help but try to avoid jumping in with suggestions. Many times men jump in and start offering suggestions and the woman feels like she is not being heard. Another thing you can do is give her plenty of attention. Never give other women sexual attention - women are generally very jealous and resentful when it comes to this. It is very important that she feels like she is the primary woman in your life. This is critical to keeping her faithful.Read more: Why Women Cheat - ShaveMagazine.com
> 
> I personally don't agree that you can "keep" or "make" someone be faithful BUT I do agree if you are there for your woman emotionally, things will be much better in your relationship.


The stuff above in the blue only applies to "Normal" marriages, applying it to a MLC situation, most of it does not wash as many will tell you. 

I was always there for my wife, did more than 50% of everything around the house because I had a home office. We never had sex less than three times a week for 24 years except during pregnancy and just after childbirth and I used to talk with her everyday about everything and anything while taking her to work. I complimented on how she looked everyday. I kept myself in good shape ( 6'2" 180lbs), and she bragged me up for years to the girls at work, but all the above was still not enough. 

The switch went off for my wife at age 44, she took off for some guy she met online playing World of Warcraft, left a house with no mortgage and two kids to live in a one bedroom apartment, hooking up with the out of town OM on weekends. I swear it's more like mental illness than anything else.


----------



## Gabriel

1, 2, and 8 for my WW. Even though the 8 was totally unfounded, it was her wrong perception. My compliments on her looks, etc, have never been enough. 

I have worked hard on 1 and 8 to help our marriage. #2 I cannot control.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Jen's Husband said:


> Interesting article and very thorough, though it seems depressing that being there for a person emotionally will cover "nearly half" of these female infidelity cases.



I doubt it's even that close to half
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Jellybeans article and the effects of what Ive been reading today have forced me to reconsider any relationships (ever?). My recent urge to consider dating again are back in hybernation.

F*ck that, no thanks.

My would-be future ex-wives would like to thank you.

The turtle head is safely back in it's shell.


----------



## working_together

Jellybeans said:


> In that case, I would ask your wife SPECIFICALLY what you are doing/have done that has made her feel disrespected/not as an equal. And also ask her what YOU can do to correct it. Then go from there. Also, tell her how YOU feel about what she is saying and tell her what you want and need from her.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Affairs are like a high.
> 
> 
> 
> Then redirect the convo: "Therapist, I realize you are asking me ?s about my family of origin, but I am here to discuss the the affair and/or XYZ. It's what I am coming to you for and I really want your guidance and listening ears."


I know that now, but back then I was in denial, I was just so happy to not talk about the affair, not take responsibilty. I could have still been in the fog as well.


----------



## TheGoodFight

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Jellybeans article and the effects of what Ive been reading today have forced me to reconsider any relationships (ever?). My recent urge to consider dating again are back in hybernation.
> 
> F*ck that, no thanks.
> 
> My would-be future ex-wives would like to thank you.
> 
> The turtle head is safely back in it's shell.


Someone told me one time "If it flies, floats, or f***s, you're better off renting."

Just kidding of course....I think. :scratchhead:


----------



## Jen's Husband

Almostrecovered said:


> I doubt it's even that close to half
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. I guess I'm being cynical, but I often wonder if the "emotional absence" excuse is cooked up after the fact in many of these situations. I hear that from Jen all the time despite being the emotional "giver" in our marriage and it's never stopped her from testing the waters over the years.


----------



## working_together

1 and 2 completely. I always told him that, it wasn' t just when I entered my affair. I told him what I wanted and needed from him. He really wanted to fill my needs, but because of his many personal set backs during our marriage he couldn't. I get that NOW, a little late though.

My husband is a "giver", he will help anyone who needs it, he gave me so many nice gifts during our marriage. What is interesting is that when I was younger I loved those gifts, showed them off. But he was also there for me emotionally at the time, as time went on, those gifts became less important as we experienced many traumatic events. I needed him emotionally at that point and he had difficulty providing it. I became resentful, made him feel unimportant, and the list goes on.


----------



## Jen's Husband

My issue with number 8 on the list is the fact that when I tell my wife how attractive she is, she just tells me I'm her husband and have to think that. So I can't make her feel attractive on my own. But if another guy looks at her (and they do often) it's like she's thrilled for hours after.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Jen's Husband said:


> Agreed. I guess I'm being cynical, but I often wonder if the "emotional absence" excuse is cooked up after the fact in many of these situations. I hear that from Jen all the time despite being the emotional "giver" in our marriage and it's never stopped her from testing the waters over the years.


No bro... Your chasing your tail, which is exactly what your supposed to do... 

That's the beauty. Don't you see?.

They are moving targets. They can change as quickly and as often as the person making them up wants them to. They only last as long as they work. Dispell one.... Up comes another... and they can be brilliantly ambiguous...

Those explanations for cheating are just rationalizations with lipstick on.

Doesn't matter why they say they did it... IT'S SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

When someone is faced with a moral failing, or guilt they instinctively rationalize it. Protects their self-esteem and self-concept and distributes responsibilty. 

The ONLY truth is.... They did it because THEY WANTED TO and found a good enough rationalization to let themselves.


----------



## Jellybeans

From that list, 1, 2, and 6 were true for me at the time of my A.


----------



## Jellybeans

Jen's Husband said:


> Interesting article and very thorough, though it seems depressing that being there for a person emotionally will cover "nearly half" of these female infidelity cases.


Don't be depressed. Be enlightened. And I am not talking about cheating --but in general, women WANT to feel emotionally connected to their men. Always have, always will. 



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Jellybeans article and the effects of what Ive been reading today have forced me to reconsider any relationships (ever?). My recent urge to consider dating again are back in hybernation.
> 
> F*ck that, no thanks.
> 
> My would-be future ex-wives would like to thank you.
> 
> The turtle head is safely back in it's shell.


Women will only become your ex-wives if you marry & get divorced. I personally am almost a year out from my D and I have not at all even had an inkling to want to date. No, thanks. 



working_together said:


> My husband is a "giver"


That's interesting. I was the giver in my marriage. It got really old. You should talk to your husband and let him know you feel about all this.



Jen's Husband said:


> My issue with number 8 on the list is the fact that when I tell my wife how attractive she is, she just tells me I'm her husband and have to think that. So I can't make her feel attractive on my own. But if another guy looks at her (and they do often) it's like she's thrilled for hours after.


Sorry to hear that JH. She should be appreciative and not dismissive. Tell her how it makes you feel when she does that. My exH never told me when I looked nice, etc. I think I'm an attractive person but it woulda bee nice hearing it from him every once in awhile. Women love to hear compliments from their men. Talk to your wife!


----------



## Jen's Husband

Jellybeans said:


> Sorry to hear that JH. She should be appreciative and not dismissive. Tell her how it makes you feel when she does that. My exH never told me when I looked nice, etc. I think I'm an attractive person but it woulda bee nice hearing it from him every once in awhile. Women love to hear compliments from their men. *Talk to your wife*!


Oh, I talk to her alright. I'm at the point now where I think that's all backfired and even Jen says "quit talking to me about this @%&!" She thinks I'm hung up on all this and also overly analytical. I'll cop to that but she's the opposite and wants any problem (on my part) to be quickly forgotten. One issue is our totally opposite approach to dealing with problems. I actually get better mileage when I shut up entirely for an evening and just wait for the inevitable, "So, what are you thinking about?..." She'll treat me like a king for the rest of the night. This hasn't changed since we were 18 and now we're in our mid 30s. I do better by being inaccessible and distant like the guys she finds really attractive.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Read it with my husband after Dday and from that day forward, everything said in this book automatically applied to me, in my husband's mind. I can relate to some of the things said in the various stages but not to the soulmate stuff, not to the grieving over the loss of the lover and I also didn't want more sex, I wanted none at all - not with hubby and not with the OM (ew).


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> Interesting list. Out of that list, I think my wife would say she was bored.
> 
> From the book:


Yeah, but can't you get excitement from other things in life? I can't see how boredom lead to an affair. I can see it coupled with other things, but just boredom?


----------



## morituri

working_together said:


> Yeah, but can't you get excitement from other things in life? I can't see how boredom lead to an affair. I can see it coupled with other things, but just boredom?


Many people have the false belief that life should be a never ending series of exciting events. When they are in a committed relationship like marriage, they soon realize that their spouse will not be providing them with a steady diet of excitement. So they get involved with another man/woman because the simple act that they are doing something forbidden, gives them the rush and excitement they crave. These people don't necessarily want to end their marriage but simply 'supplement it' so they can keep themselves from being bored out of their minds. Needless to say, these people have not matured into adults but have gotten stuck in an extended adolescence.


----------



## lordmayhem

morituri said:


> Many people have the false belief that life should be a never ending series of exciting events. When they are in a committed relationship like marriage, they soon realize that their spouse will not be providing them with a steady diet of excitement. So they get involved with another man/woman because the simple act that they are doing somethging forbidden, gives them the rush and excitement they crave. These people don't necessarily want to end their marriage but simply 'supplement it' so they can keep themselves from being bored out of their minds. Needless to say, these people have not matured into adults but have gotten stuck in an extended adolescence.


Well said!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> The stuff above in the blue only applies to "Normal" marriages, applying it to a MLC situation, most of it does not wash as many will tell you.
> 
> I was always there for my wife, did more than 50% of everything around the house because I had a home office. We never had sex less than three times a week for 24 years except during pregnancy and just after childbirth and I used to talk with her everyday about everything and anything while taking her to work. I complimented on how she looked everyday. I kept myself in good shape ( 6'2" 180lbs), and she bragged me up for years to the girls at work, but all the above was still not enough.
> 
> The switch went off for my wife at age 44, she took off for some guy she met online playing World of Warcraft, left a house with no mortgage and two kids to live in a one bedroom apartment, hooking up with the out of town OM on weekends. I swear it's more like mental illness than anything else.


Agreed. Thats why I want to reach through the screen sometimes and punch someone in the face when I read the standard response that she wouldn't have cheated if you were there for her emotionally. We can't read there freaking minds. When we try to ask whats wrong I got the dreaded "N" word (Nothing!). I did my best to communicate and give her validation at the expense of my own. I know my emotional and sexual needs weren't being met yet I never damn cheated!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

lordmayhem said:


> Agreed. Thats why I want to reach through the screen sometimes and punch someone in the face when I read the standard response that she wouldn't have cheated if you were there for her emotionally.


Like this lordmayhem?


----------



## oaksthorne

Saffron said:


> Think it's important to remember this is not _all_ women, just those that did cheat and their thought process behind it.
> 
> I'm been married 15 years and faithful the whole time, my H is the one who cheated. I'm a very sexual person, so that is or was not a problem in our marriage. My H fully admits, he probably would've had sex with the OW more often if we didn't have such a great sex life, it was more about the ego boost for him.
> 
> That being said, I wonder if the train of thought of these women are similar to the trrain of thought in male cheaters too. More like a "cheating mentality" regardless of male or female.
> 
> This is pretty much my experience. I was married for over 20 years to a person who put everyone's needs ahead of mine and treated me like I didn't have a brain in my head ( my IQ is over 140 ). He also smacked me around. I stayed with him because of religion. When I started a new career, I was treated with respect ( I was the boss ). The contrast was too much to reconcile, and I made more money then he did so no reason to continue taking s*&^. I D'd him and moved on. I married again to a really nice guy who was so gentile and kind, I was in heaven. For nearly 20 years I was well pleased with the M. He, was getting older and his ego was getting dinged( so was mine, but he was my comfort ). Along came the inevitable married Wh)&% and started hitting on him ( he didn't mention it to me). He started blameing all of his frustrations on me, without bothering to tell me what he was thinking. I worked hard on my first M, and my decision to end it was an honest one. I worked hard on the second one too. In neither case was I treated with the respect I deserved. Cheating is a selfish and dishonest thing to do. This type of thinking is not gender specific, although men still have a slight edge because of the " I'm a man" defense that women often hear; he told me that Tony Sorprono had a misstress, so he didn't think it was a bid deal. Who ever does it, it's a lousy thing to do to someone who loves and trusts you.


----------



## TheGoodFight

working_together said:


> Yeah, but can't you get excitement from other things in life? I can't see how boredom lead to an affair. I can see it coupled with other things, but just boredom?


I'm just going by something I read in an email her (also) cheating friend sent her at the time:

"We need to love someone like we do these two gents or we would fade into the monotony of our lives."


----------



## Runs like Dog

What book? The phone book?


----------



## mikeydread1982

Look, it seems all this emotional mumbo jumbo has everyone's head spinning. I don't see why people don't just let people be. Some folks are made for monotony...I mean monogomy, some arent. Due to the pressure by (fill in blank with family, society, etc), some "do the right thing". There is 2 women to every man, so you tell me 1/2 the women in the world don't deserve love? How selfish of you. Women crave excitement, and passion and disney fairy tales, if they see the need to chase that, they are the ones accruing the mileage, not you. I just think there are some overly emotional crybabies who feel that they deserve the attention of one individual, well ask yourself this, "what am I doing to deserve all this, and am I doing it?" A lot of what I said is devil's advocacy, however, think about it. Some people are dreamers, some are chasers and some are settlers, which are you?


----------



## Almostrecovered

mikeydread1982 said:


> There is 2 women to every man


what?

51% of the population are women


----------



## lordmayhem

morituri said:


> Like this lordmayhem?


:smthumbup:


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

mikeydread1982 said:


> Look, it seems all this emotional mumbo jumbo has everyone's head spinning. I don't see why people don't just let people be. Some folks are made for monotony...I mean monogomy, some arent. Due to the pressure by (fill in blank with family, society, etc), some "do the right thing". There is 2 women to every man, so you tell me 1/2 the women in the world don't deserve love? How selfish of you. Women crave excitement, and passion and disney fairy tales, if they see the need to chase that, they are the ones accruing the mileage, not you. I just think there are some overly emotional crybabies who feel that they deserve the attention of one individual, well ask yourself this, "what am I doing to deserve all this, and am I doing it?" A lot of what I said is devil's advocacy, however, think about it. Some people are dreamers, some are chasers and some are settlers, which are you?


lol.

How'd you get outta your restraints?

For god's sake, put that helmet back on!! your gonna hurt yourself!!


----------



## mikeydread1982

Usually the response from a person without a response, attack the poster. lol, i expected that, and it was obvious the entire post wasn't read. Just some thought provoking, that's all. relax.


----------



## mikeydread1982

Almostrecovered said:


> what?
> 
> 51% of the population are women


According to a US Census in 2000, 50.9% actually. So my data is a bit dated, but i'm sure i can stand by it still.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I dont think there was ever a time where the women had 66-67% of the population


----------



## mikeydread1982

Almostrecovered said:


> I dont think there was ever a time where the women had 66-67% of the population



Granted, there's still more of you which is the point being made.


----------



## Complexity

mikeydread1982 said:


> Look, it seems all this emotional mumbo jumbo has everyone's head spinning. I don't see why people don't just let people be. Some folks are made for monotony...I mean monogomy, some arent. Due to the pressure by (fill in blank with family, society, etc), some "do the right thing". T*here is 2 women to every man, so you tell me 1/2 the women in the world don't deserve love? How selfish of you.* Women crave excitement, and passion and disney fairy tales, if they see the need to chase that, they are the ones accruing the mileage, not you. I just think there are some overly emotional crybabies who feel that they deserve the attention of one individual, well ask yourself this, "what am I doing to deserve all this, and am I doing it?" A lot of what I said is devil's advocacy, however, think about it. Some people are dreamers, some are chasers and some are settlers, which are you?


you sound like a creep to be honest


----------



## mikeydread1982

Complexity said:


> you sound like a creep to be honest


...and? We all can't be self righteous as you. I see some people have comprehension issues here. Or maybe this speaks to the overly emotional mention I made earlier. People are so wound up in what they deserve from another human being. You have as many flaws as they do, they're just manifested in different forms. I know of a lot of people that marry to "do the right thing", which is typically a pregnancy. Others may marry due to unrealistic ideal they have envisioned. Some people marry young. And with all those scenarios, most don't work out. All i'm saying is, be realistic, people are people, placing sometimes unrealistic, and egotistical, expectations on someone can push them further away than bringing them closer. Now let the name calling resume.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Twice the nagging?


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> Many people have the false belief that life should be a never ending series of exciting events. When they are in a committed relationship like marriage, they soon realize that their spouse will not be providing them with a steady diet of excitement. So they get involved with another man/woman because the simple act that they are doing something forbidden, gives them the rush and excitement they crave. These people don't necessarily want to end their marriage but simply 'supplement it' so they can keep themselves from being bored out of their minds. Needless to say, these people have not matured into adults but have gotten stuck in an extended adolescence.


yeah, it makes sense now that you explained it.


----------



## working_together

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> The stuff above in the blue only applies to "Normal" marriages, applying it to a MLC situation, most of it does not wash as many will tell you.
> 
> I was always there for my wife, did more than 50% of everything around the house because I had a home office. We never had sex less than three times a week for 24 years except during pregnancy and just after childbirth and I used to talk with her everyday about everything and anything while taking her to work. I complimented on how she looked everyday. I kept myself in good shape ( 6'2" 180lbs), and she bragged me up for years to the girls at work, but all the above was still not enough.
> 
> The switch went off for my wife at age 44, she took off for some guy she met online playing World of Warcraft, left a house with no mortgage and two kids to live in a one bedroom apartment, hooking up with the out of town OM on weekends. I swear it's more like mental illness than anything else.




I'm just playing devil's advocate here, nothing more. But would you think your wife was the exception to the rule? I mean we have read all the possible reasons women have affairs (similar for men), there seems to be a common theme. Yes, you seemed to be there for your wife on every level, I agree. But your wife may have something seriously wrong with her to have the need for hook ups at 44, or maybe she just snapped. It's all so puzzling to me. Or is it all about perception?


----------



## TheGoodFight

morituri said:


> Many people have the false belief that life should be a never ending series of exciting events. When they are in a committed relationship like marriage, they soon realize that their spouse will not be providing them with a steady diet of excitement. So they get involved with another man/woman because the simple act that they are doing something forbidden, gives them the rush and excitement they crave. These people don't necessarily want to end their marriage but simply 'supplement it' so they can keep themselves from being bored out of their minds. Needless to say, these people have not matured into adults but have gotten stuck in an extended adolescence.


Or instead of extended adolescence, it could be what people refer to as a mid life crisis. Maybe what triggers it in some women is a change in body chemistry that makes them question themselves and their whole life. Who knows?


----------



## working_together

lordmayhem said:


> Agreed. Thats why I want to reach through the screen sometimes and punch someone in the face when I read the standard response that she wouldn't have cheated if you were there for her emotionally. We can't read there freaking minds. When we try to ask whats wrong I got the dreaded "N" word (Nothing!). I did my best to communicate and give her validation at the expense of my own. I know my emotional and sexual needs weren't being met yet I never damn cheated!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was telling my husband for years what I needed, to be heard, respected, not lectured, appreciated etc. He agrees with me on this. And he says that it was hard for him to do it because of the many set backs he's had in his life. Did I say it the right way? Probably not, I said it in a defensive manner "stop putting me down" instead of telling him how it made me felt. And then he would take it the wrong way and build resentment etc. 

Nothing=tons of stuff


----------



## morituri

TheGoodFight said:


> Or instead of extended adolescence, it could be what people refer to as a mid life crisis. Maybe what triggers it in some women is a change in body chemistry that makes them question themselves and their whole life. Who knows?


Then again the women who are bored easily could be narcissists.


----------



## Jen's Husband

TheGoodFight said:


> Or instead of extended adolescence, it could be what people refer to as a mid life crisis. Maybe what triggers it in some women is a change in body chemistry that makes them question themselves and their whole life. Who knows?


My wife is only in her early 30s and hasn't had a full-blown affair, but a lot of her behavior seems to follow this explanation. She's even said to me, after a fight when she's in her "being honest" mode, that a lot of what she's done has to do with not being young anymore and not being in the place "she thought she'd be by now." I'm assuming that many points in the book and on the other article list above would have some root in this attitude as well.


----------



## Jen's Husband

working_together said:


> I was telling my husband for years what I needed, to be heard, respected, not lectured, appreciated etc. He agrees with me on this. And he says that it was hard for him to do it because of the many set backs he's had in his life. Did I say it the right way? Probably not, I said it in a defensive manner "stop putting me down" instead of telling him how it made me felt. And then he would take it the wrong way and build resentment etc.
> 
> Nothing=tons of stuff


I don't mean to belittle your struggles with your husband in any way, but in some ways I'm jealous of the men whose wives lecture them repeatedly over the long term regarding things that need to change. With my wife it's always a guessing game, with me begging her to tell me what's up, before some issue arises without me having seen it coming.


----------



## working_together

mikeydread1982 said:


> Look, it seems all this emotional mumbo jumbo has everyone's head spinning. I don't see why people don't just let people be. Some folks are made for monotony...I mean monogomy, some arent. Due to the pressure by (fill in blank with family, society, etc), some "do the right thing". There is 2 women to every man, so you tell me 1/2 the women in the world don't deserve love? How selfish of you. Women crave excitement, and passion and disney fairy tales, if they see the need to chase that, they are the ones accruing the mileage, not you. I just think there are some overly emotional crybabies who feel that they deserve the attention of one individual, well ask yourself this, "what am I doing to deserve all this, and am I doing it?" A lot of what I said is devil's advocacy, however, think about it. Some people are dreamers, some are chasers and some are settlers, which are you?


What about the women who didn't crave the fantasy wedding? I may be wrong, but Americans are more preoccupied with the big lavish wedding. What about the women who want a happy marriage where they feel fulfilled and want to spend the rest of their living days with the same man? I think everyone craves excitement, but does it mean a person will seek an affair because of this. It's really not that simple, no one person fits exactly into the same mold. Bottom line though is that it's horrible decision to make, and we all agree on that.


----------



## Jellybeans

working_together said:


> I was telling my husband for years what I needed, to be heard, respected, not lectured, appreciated etc.


This was me, too. Unfortunately, my exH was not up to the task of even acknowledging my feelings. During the divorce he told me he was going to have the rest of his life knowing he did not try everything he could in our marriage. In a way this makes me happy. It takes two, baby.


----------



## Jellybeans

working_together said:


> Bottom line though is that it's horrible decision to make, and we all agree on that.


:iagree:


----------



## working_together

Jen's Husband said:


> I don't mean to belittle your struggles with your husband in any way, but in some ways I'm jealous of the men whose wives lecture them repeatedly over the long term regarding things that need to change. With my wife it's always a guessing game, with me begging her to tell me what's up, before some issue arises without me having seen it coming.


You're not belittling me. At least I don't think so, lol.


----------



## Jen's Husband

working_together said:


> You're not belittling me. At least I don't think so, lol.


Good, I just wanted to make it clear I was mentioning a difference in experience and not making some sort of judgment.


----------



## TheGoodFight

Here is something else I got from the "friend":

"Your wife and I talked a lot about how to we get our husbands to recognize us and realize what amazing women we are trying to be. We were devoured by our husbands in the beginning and then slowly our relationship becomes like a business and we forget how to get the "can't wait to see you" feeling again."

AND

"We become the housekeeper, cook, dry cleaner, banker and forget to be the goddess, lover, comedian and recycled teenager that we should all be."


So my conclusion is that they are chasing that feeling and that's what they got from their involvement with the AP. (And it sure sounds like a MLC to me)


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> I'm just going by something I read in an email her (also) cheating friend sent her at the time:
> 
> "We need to love someone like we do these two gents or we would fade into the monotony of our lives."


But it's predictable and stable, no?


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> Or instead of extended adolescence, it could be what people refer to as a mid life crisis. Maybe what triggers it in some women is a change in body chemistry that makes them question themselves and their whole life. Who knows?


Depends on their personality I think, and age.


----------



## TheGoodFight

working_together said:


> But it's predictable and stable, no?


What? Their lives? I guess so. Maybe that's the problem, but I don't think that has anything to do with me unless it is my job to entertain my wife.


----------



## working_together

Jellybeans said:


> This was me, too. Unfortunately, my exH was not up to the task of even acknowledging my feelings. During the divorce he told me he was going to have the rest of his life knowing he did not try everything he could in our marriage. In a way this makes me happy. It takes two, baby.


Do you think some people aren't capable of it?? for whatever the reason.


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> What? Their lives? I guess so. Maybe that's the problem, but I don't think that has anything to do with me unless it is my job to entertain my wife.


I mean, those who seek "excitement", the "rush", do they not want their lives to be predictable, stable, safe. I find it hard to not want that. Just saying....


----------



## TheGoodFight

working_together said:


> I mean, those who seek "excitement", the "rush", do they not want their lives to be predictable, stable, safe. I find it hard to not want that. Just saying....


Oh I see.

Well if they are in affairs, they get both I guess. That is, until they get discovered. Then I guess they have to make a choice.

I guess my argument would be that if you want excitement, you can create that, but in the long run, it's much more satisfying to do it within the bounds of the relationship you are in. That is if your partner is willing.

Either way, if it's something you want in your relationship, you need to take responsibility for getting it.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

working_together said:


> I'm just playing devil's advocate here, nothing more. But would you think your wife was the exception to the rule? I mean we have read all the possible reasons women have affairs (similar for men), there seems to be a common theme. Yes, you seemed to be there for your wife on every level, I agree. But your wife may have something seriously wrong with her to have the need for hook ups at 44, or maybe she just snapped. It's all so puzzling to me. Or is it all about perception?


When asked, all I could get out of her was " it's a lot of little things", " I'm not interested in MC I want out". No elaboration, three days later she was gone. Five months on I find out about the OM for sure. She didn't tell anyone she'd left at work for almost a month. In her case it appears to be the classic MLC, the kids and I don't even recognize her anymore she's changed so much.


----------



## mikeydread1982

working_together said:


> What about the women who didn't crave the fantasy wedding? I may be wrong, but Americans are more preoccupied with the big lavish wedding. What about the women who want a happy marriage where they feel fulfilled and want to spend the rest of their living days with the same man? I think everyone craves excitement, but does it mean a person will seek an affair because of this. It's really not that simple, no one person fits exactly into the same mold. Bottom line though is that it's horrible decision to make, and we all agree on that.


You're right, unfortunately, we have seen what America's media influence has on the world. Probably not you personally, where the case may be the anomoly. And regarding the wedding, it's not even necesarily the lavishness, it's just the idea that girls are to grow up, get married, house w/ picket fence, 2.5 children, etc. Nowhere in there does it say the work required for maintaining a solid marriage, to them that just happens because you married the man you love. No further input required. 

Like for instance, my situation is a bit of the married young and do the right thing. I believe no one should marry before 30, by this point you should have accomplished something with your life, you should know who you are and what you're looking for in a partner. People sometimes outgrow the person they married in their 20's, it just happens. Most women will tell you when they're in their 30's and up, that they had no idea who they were and what their lifelong ideals would be. Most men won't admit it, or really don't know because we're young, horny, in love and thinking of all the sex we're going to have with these insecure, unsure, 20+ year old wives. recipe for disaster.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

TheGoodFight said:


> Here is something else I got from the "friend":
> 
> "Your wife and I talked a lot about how to we get our husbands to recognize us and realize what amazing women we are trying to be. We were devoured by our husbands in the beginning and then slowly our relationship becomes like a business and we forget how to get the "can't wait to see you" feeling again."
> 
> AND
> 
> "We become the housekeeper, cook, dry cleaner, banker and forget to be the goddess, lover, comedian and recycled teenager that we should all be."
> 
> 
> So my conclusion is that they are chasing that feeling and that's what they got from their involvement with the AP. (And it sure sounds like a MLC to me)


What get's me is the fact they don't seem to take into consideration most husband have hopes and dreams as well. We bury most of our personal dreams by the time the first kids arrive and work our [email protected]@es off until retirement. In my case I realized this was part of married life, you make sacrifices for your family. 

I never reached many of my goals in life, and I'm not at the place I'd thought I'd be at 57, but then the vast majority of people are in the same boat. I took satisfaction that I had what I thought was a great marriage, two great kids, my mortgage paid off and my health.

Strangely enough , I never realized how much time I spent catering to my wife's happiness. Since she's been gone I've joined the local theater guild, the Gym, Yoga studio, and get out at least one night a week for a beer with friends.
There's no chance of her coming back, but if she did there would have to be major changes in her end of things.


----------



## morituri

But whether a woman is vulnerable to have an affair because of external causes (husband is emotionally abusive; husband is absent most of the time, etc) or internal causes (wife has a mid life crisis; wife has a personality disorder, etc),* the fact remains that only when there is a crossing of marital boundaries can affair even become possible*. 

The late Dr Shirley Glass PhD who studied infidelity in thousands of couples found this out and that even a happily married men and women were not immune to having an affair if they chose to cross dangerous marital boundaries.

Working, it can be argued that if you and the other former unfaithful wives here had been cognizant of the danger of crossing marital boundaries, you would not have crossed them when the opportunity presented itself for you and the others to do so.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

TheGoodFight said:


> Women's Infidelity Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity
> 
> You can get the gist of the book by reading the website.
> 
> I spent the afternoon reading this book. I then spent some time searching for discussions on this board about the book. I didn't find much so I apologize if it has been discussed before.
> 
> I know others here have read the book. My takeaway is very negative as far as a man wanting to marry a women. I mean who would want to marry knowing this? Anybody else read this book? What did you take away from it?


This described my wife to a T.

And is also the reason I'll never get married again. Not because I was cheated on, but because this seems to be the thought process of too many women who get married.

They push men for commitment, and when they get what they want, eventually get bored and look for the excitement of having sex with a different man.

No thanks, never again.


----------



## working_together

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> When asked, all I could get out of her was " it's a lot of little things", " I'm not interested in MC I want out". No elaboration, three days later she was gone. Five months on I find out about the OM for sure. She didn't tell anyone she'd left at work for almost a month. In her case it appears to be the classic MLC, the kids and I don't even recognize her anymore she's changed so much.


That sounds way more than a mid life crisis to me.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

working_together said:


> That sounds way more than a mid life crisis to me.


Check out a few forums about MLC and you'll find it's quite common. They not only leave the husband, quite often the kids, their own parents and most of their former friends in the dust. It nearly always occurs about the time peri-menopause kicks in, it's like watching your wife become a "Pod person", their body is still there, but their personality is totally rewired.


----------



## working_together

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> What get's me is the fact they don't seem to take into consideration most husband have hopes and dreams as well. We bury most of our personal dreams by the time the first kids arrive and work our [email protected]@es off until retirement. In my case I realized this was part of married life, you make sacrifices for your family.
> 
> I never reached many of my goals in life, and I'm not at the place I'd thought I'd be at 57, but then the vast majority of people are in the same boat. I took satisfaction that I had what I thought was a great marriage, two great kids, my mortgage paid off and my health.
> 
> Strangely enough , I never realized how much time I spent catering to my wife's happiness. Since she's been gone I've joined the local theater guild, the Gym, Yoga studio, and get out at least one night a week for a beer with friends.
> There's no chance of her coming back, but if she did there would have to be major changes in her end of things.


It's also the way we cater to each others needs. I could care less about a fancy car, fancy house, remodeling my kitchen etc. But many men are programmed by society that women need and want this, and some do, but there's a lot that don't. For some it's on an emotional level.

I totally agree with you on your point about men having hopes and dreams. We sometimes forget about that.


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> But whether a woman is vulnerable to have an affair because of external causes (husband is emotionally abusive; husband is absent most of the time, etc) or internal causes (wife has a mid life crisis; wife has a personality disorder, etc),* the fact remains that only when there is a crossing of marital boundaries can affair even become possible*.
> 
> The late Dr Shirley Glass PhD who studied infidelity in thousands of couples found this out and that even a happily married men and women were not immune to having an affair if they chose to cross dangerous marital boundaries.
> 
> Working, it can be argued that if you and the other former unfaithful wives here had been cognizant of the danger of crossing marital boundaries, you would not have crossed them when the opportunity presented itself for you and the others to do so.


You're right


----------



## Jellybeans

working_together said:


> Do you think some people aren't capable of it?? for whatever the reason.


I think anyone is capable of it. But some are not willing. And that's an entirely different ballgame. 



morituri said:


> the fact remains that only when there is a crossing of marital boundaries can affair even become possible[/B].


:iagree: It's all about boundaries.


----------



## Jen's Husband

Dexter Morgan said:


> This described my wife to a T.
> 
> And is also the reason I'll never get married again. Not because I was cheated on, but because this seems to be the thought process of too many women who get married.
> 
> They push men for commitment, and when they get what they want, eventually get bored and look for the excitement of having sex with a different man.
> 
> No thanks, never again.


I don't doubt this in many cases, but I really hope it isn't always the case. The only problem is I'm starting to discover that it just might be for many wives.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

working_together said:


> It's also the way we cater to each others needs. I could care less about a fancy car, fancy house, remodeling my kitchen etc. But many men are programmed by society that women need and want this, and some do, but there's a lot that don't. For some it's on an emotional level.
> 
> I totally agree with you on your point about men having hopes and dreams. We sometimes forget about that.


A lot of guys I know are like this scene in regards to their families, " the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one" 
Spock Logic The Needs of the Many - YouTube


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> I mean, those who seek "excitement", the "rush", do they not want their lives to be predictable, stable, safe. I find it hard to not want that. Just saying....


When you were in the height of your affair, did you really care if you got caught? In other words, was it so important that you thought you had entered a new phase of your life and you could actually leave you old life behind?


----------



## Rebuilding

Jen's Husband said:


> I don't doubt this in many cases, but I really hope it isn't always the case. The only problem is I'm starting to discover that it just might be for many wives.


I'm not sure if this opinion is based on the book or whether this is a general view of married women. If indeed it is a general comment, it would apply to all those who cheat.

As for the book itself, I read it about 6 months ago, after my husband found out about my affair. I picked it up because I needed to understand what I was going through (and there's just limited amount of information published that deals directly with women who had affairs).

The book is very skewed and based solely on interviews on women who have cheated and who were willing to talk about their experiences. So I wouldn't take the view that all women would eventually fall into this situation, become bored or dissatisfied and cheat on their husbands. In other words, for you men that states that you wouldn't want a relationship if they will eventually end up being future ex-wives anyway, well...I wouldn't completely give up on my gender yet.

The book also paints a highly manipulative picture of women in affairs and I don't disagree with that except for the fact that women CAN turn around after they are out of the affair fog. Not all women automatically look at the affair partner and think they're in love. Sometimes it is to fill a void they have been missing from their marriage. Not that this is a justification for an affair, but a reason they stepped out of bounds.


----------



## Rebuilding

chapparal said:


> When you were in the height of your affair, did you really care if you got caught? In other words, was it so important that you thought you had entered a new phase of your life and you could actually leave you old life behind?


I know this was directed to another poster, but for me, during the affair, I didn't care if I got caught because I wasn't thinking whether I would be or not. I was so wound up in the "high" of the affair that everything else became unimportant. Consequences were not thought through, never thought about leaving my old life behind, and while consciously I knew there would be remifications, the truth is I chose to ignore them. I decided to be selfish and feed whatever I could into the affair to continue to keep myself in a delusional "happy" state. That's why they call it "affair fog", it's kind of like short term insanity.


----------



## Chaparral

Rebuilding said:


> I know this was directed to another poster, but for me, during the affair, I didn't care if I got caught because I wasn't thinking whether I would be or not. I was so wound up in the "high" of the affair that everything else became unimportant. Consequences were not thought through, never thought about leaving my old life behind, and while consciously I knew there would be remifications, the truth is I chose to ignore them. I decided to be selfish and feed whatever I could into the affair to continue to keep myself in a delusional "happy" state. That's why they call it "affair fog", it's kind of like short term insanity.


Why did you have an affair?


----------



## Rebuilding

chapparal said:


> Why did you have an affair?


I was really lonely and my marriage had deteriorated over a span of 3 years (gradually, bit by bit). My husband had decided to exclude me from the circle of "care", meaning I felt like I was an outsider within my family of 4 (2 young kids age 7 and 5). I felt like I could be easily replaced by my nanny. This is by no means a justification for the affair, though at the time of deciding to have the affair, I thought it was justification enough. I know understand that why I had the affair is different from trying to make it a justifiable act (as betrayals like this is never justified).


----------



## Chaparral

Rebuilding said:


> I was really lonely and my marriage had deteriorated over a span of 3 years (gradually, bit by bit). My husband had decided to exclude me from the circle of "care", meaning I felt like I was an outsider within my family of 4 (2 young kids age 7 and 5). I felt like I could be easily replaced by my nanny. This is by no means a justification for the affair, though at the time of deciding to have the affair, I thought it was justification enough. I know understand that why I had the affair is different from trying to make it a justifiable act (as betrayals like this is never justified).


Could you expound on this? I really do not understand what you are saying. Sorry


----------



## Jen's Husband

Rebuilding said:


> I'm not sure if this opinion is based on the book or whether this is a general view of married women. If indeed it is a general comment, it would apply to all those who cheat.
> 
> As for the book itself, I read it about 6 months ago, after my husband found out about my affair. I picked it up because I needed to understand what I was going through (and there's just limited amount of information published that deals directly with women who had affairs).
> 
> The book is very skewed and based solely on interviews on women who have cheated and who were willing to talk about their experiences. So I wouldn't take the view that all women would eventually fall into this situation, become bored or dissatisfied and cheat on their husbands. In other words, for you men that states that you wouldn't want a relationship if they will eventually end up being future ex-wives anyway, well...I wouldn't completely give up on my gender yet.
> 
> The book also paints a highly manipulative picture of women in affairs and I don't disagree with that except for the fact that women CAN turn around after they are out of the affair fog. Not all women automatically look at the affair partner and think they're in love. Sometimes it is to fill a void they have been missing from their marriage. Not that this is a justification for an affair, but a reason they stepped out of bounds.


I think you have a point. Primarily the comment was aimed at those affairs by women listed in the follow up article on this thread. Emotional connection can help avoid or else end less than half of women's affairs, which I find disappointing. I have no doubt it applies to male cheaters as well, but they are really not the topic of this thread.


----------



## TheGoodFight

Check out this review of the book. I found it amusing:

http://www.toqonline.com/archives/v7n2/v7no2_Devlin.pdf

It's actually a review of two different books. The first part is about the WI book.


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> When you were in the height of your affair, did you really care if you got caught? In other words, was it so important that you thought you had entered a new phase of your life and you could actually leave you old life behind?


I never thought of being caught, it didn't even come to my mind, yes, I hid it, I knew it was wrong that's for sure. But I never changed my email password or erased text messages. I just didn't think of the consequences, I was so focused on the high I was receiving, and when it would dip, I would do anything to regain it.

I did think that my old life was gone, I was moving on. I kept thinking (remember very clearly) "I CAN be happy". I was desperate to feel good. On the other hand, there were times where I wished things were different, I wished my marriage was better, I wished that I felt more satisfied as a mother, as a worker. I really wanted that "happy" feeling from my husband.


----------



## working_together

Rebuilding said:


> I know this was directed to another poster, but for me, during the affair, I didn't care if I got caught because I wasn't thinking whether I would be or not. I was so wound up in the "high" of the affair that everything else became unimportant. Consequences were not thought through, never thought about leaving my old life behind, and while consciously I knew there would be remifications, the truth is I chose to ignore them. I decided to be selfish and feed whatever I could into the affair to continue to keep myself in a delusional "happy" state. That's why they call it "affair fog", it's kind of like short term insanity.


I agree with this, it's like we didn't THINK of getting caught. But we knew enough to hide most of it, we knew it was wrong.


----------



## working_together

TheGoodFight said:


> Check out this review of the book. I found it amusing:
> 
> http://www.toqonline.com/archives/v7n2/v7no2_Devlin.pdf
> 
> It's actually a review of two different books. The first part is about the WI book.


Great, "deep voices" and "more hair"....lol


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> I agree with this, it's like we didn't THINK of getting caught.


I'm not sure how to ask this. But, you did not see the pain and agony your affair caused to everyone involved coming down sooner or later? 

Does that mean you have been shocked , surprised at the aftermath? For example, before I came to this forum I was completely unaware of at least two things. I had no clue or awareness of such a thing as an emotional affair even existed. Its still hard to believe how total the damage an EA causes. I obviously am not alone in this as so many people in an EA refuse to believe they are in one and how often it totally destroys the marriage.

The second thing is that people choose to reconcile at all. I've always thought that if my wife cheated on me, the day I found out would be the last day I ever spoke to her again. Are you surprised that your husband is willing to try reconciliation after seeing the pain he has gone through? Are you surprised at the amount of pain?


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> I'm not sure how to ask this. But, you did not see the pain and agony your affair caused to everyone involved coming down sooner or later?
> 
> Does that mean you have been shocked , surprised at the aftermath? For example, before I came to this forum I was completely unaware of at least two things. I had no clue or awareness of such a thing as an emotional affair even existed. Its still hard to believe how total the damage an EA causes. I obviously am not alone in this as so many people in an EA refuse to believe they are in one and how often it totally destroys the marriage.
> 
> The second thing is that people choose to reconcile at all. I've always thought that if my wife cheated on me, the day I found out would be the last day I ever spoke to her again. Are you surprised that your husband is willing to try reconciliation after seeing the pain he has gone through? Are you surprised at the amount of pain?


On d day I knew my husband would be furious with me. In some sick way I thought he would get over it and realize I wanted him to treat me better. Of course the opposite happened though. I'm very surprised at the amount of pain, it's the pain, the anger, the sorrow, the lost feeling I see in him everyday. I didn't think he loved me enough to have such pain, I see that now.


----------



## alphaomega

I read this book.

I didn't have time to read all these post, though.

But, while interesting, the author is NOT a qualified professional. It's a book describing observations only.

The entire book is based on what is called Hypergamy in women. Women will constantly seek the stronger male, even subconsciously. It's part of our evolution. And by stronger, I don't mean physical strength. I'm talking about genetic compatability with HER genome and her emotional needs. Unfortunately, in affairs, this is false searching. Which, I think, in most cases 90 percent of affairs fail.

There are some errors in her book. For instance, her claim that sexual peak and sexual compatability is at 18-30 for males and 30 to 45 for women. This is completely false. I mean, if this was the grand master design of evolution, then we, as a species, would never have survived a thousand years on this planet, let alone 2.3 million. All species have the same sexual cycles at exactly the same time within thier species.

That being said, take the book with a grain of salt. Women and men are not as incompatible as the book suggests. We just made an evolutionary error in inventing Facebook.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> Great, "deep voices" and "more hair"....lol


So I guess we're supposed to break up the 4 year cycle by keeping the wives barefoot and pregnant.

Actually, it brings up the question as to why divorce, and infidelity have skyrocketed lately. Easier, no fault, divorce laws of course is the big reason. Infidelity has tripled since 1997. Internet? 

In a radio interview the other day, the man that owns a worldwide cheaters website said the only country that women sign up to cheat more than men was Australia. He thinks that is because, in Australia, women are more integrated into the business world than any other advanced country. In other words when men and women are truly equal in the workplace, women are more likely to want to cheat.

On a diiferent note, his company noted last year, eight times as many women sign up to cheat on his website the day after Valentines and the day after Mothers Day. His website is for women who want cheat but don't want to divorce.

" on a typical Monday between 2,500 and 3,000 women sign-up for the site. But on the day after Mother's Day in 2009,************ saw close to 24,000 new female members. (No surprise: The day after Valentine's Day took first prize for most new female memberships on this site.) "


----------



## Jellybeans

I can't speak from the side of having been "caught" since I confessed my A to my husband but I can relate to the not thinking he would find out. Which is stupid in hindsight. I think a partner generally knows when something is off w/ their spouse. Nonetheless, I outed myself, as did my H. I will always be greatful for the fact that we didn't find out from third parties. IMO, it was better that way. I think finding out on your own or from someone else (not your spouse) is a lot worse.


----------



## Chaparral

Jellybeans said:


> I can't speak from the side of having been "caught" since I confessed my A to my husband but I can relate to the not thinking he would find out. Which is stupid in hindsight. I think a partner generally knows when something is off w/ their spouse. Nonetheless, I outed myself, as did my H. I will always be greatful for the fact that we didn't find out from third parties. IMO, it was better that way. I think finding out on your own or from someone else (not your spouse) is a lot worse.


Supposedly, only one in five affairs come to light.


----------



## Jellybeans

I don't agree with that #. I think a LOT of affairs get discovered personally think it'd be higher than 1 in 5.


----------



## COguy

This struck a chord with me because I saw it in my wife and her friends that went wayward. Actually in counseling during her EA my wife said, "I shouldn't have to tell him what I want, he should just know."


_Women may want men to make them happy, but they do not say, and probably do not know themselves, how this might be accomplished. “Women want men to read their minds—or, more accurately, their emotions—because it’s what they do, easily…. Females want males to anticipate their needs and desires.” (Obeying their every command is not enough.) Women do in fact have a greater ability to perceive the needs and feelings of others without verbal communication, an evolved adaptation to the requirements of successfully nurturing infants. When they expect their husbands to have this same ability, they are in effect upset that their husbands are not women.
Eventually, women do come out and tell their husbands they are “unhappy.” But this does not mean they have any intention of working on improving the marriage; women ordinarily make no overt, specific complaints until they are
100 percent done with the relationship—meaning [they] have lost all feeling…. It’s not uncommon for women to eventually feel less for their husbands than they would for a stranger on the street…. When women start being specific to men about their needs, it’s usually only to let their husbands know all the many areas in which they have failed. In other words, their husbands have already been fired; their wives are just giving them the reasons for the termination…. She already has another “Mr. Right” picked out or is eager to find one. She is looking for the feeling of excitement again._


----------



## elph

^^^ 
That's pretty much the origin of my marital problems. If my wife would've communicated her unhappiness in an effective manner this while thing could've been avoided. we're men. We want to fix things. Especially out marriages. 

It's quite sad too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tiredspouse0297

alphaomega said:


> I read this book.
> 
> I didn't have time to read all these post, though.
> 
> But, while interesting, the author is NOT a qualified professional. It's a book describing observations only.
> 
> The entire book is based on what is called Hypergamy in women. Women will constantly seek the stronger male, even subconsciously. It's part of our evolution. And by stronger, I don't mean physical strength. I'm talking about genetic compatability with HER genome and her emotional needs. Unfortunately, in affairs, this is false searching. Which, I think, in most cases 90 percent of affairs fail.
> 
> There are some errors in her book. For instance, her claim that sexual peak and sexual compatability is at 18-30 for males and 30 to 45 for women. This is completely false. I mean, if this was the grand master design of evolution, then we, as a species, would never have survived a thousand years on this planet, let alone 2.3 million. All species have the same sexual cycles at exactly the same time within thier species.
> 
> That being said, take the book with a grain of salt. Women and men are not as incompatible as the book suggests. We just made an evolutionary error in inventing Facebook.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo! Trying to pin point blame for why a woman cheats is ridiculous. There's too many reasons, emotionally and physically, for why all people cheat. It happens, it happens a lot. Physiologically people aren't programmed for monogamy. However, we also deal with the emotion of jealousy. All our emotions involved in this topic occur naturally and for reasons of reproduction. I don't know if there is a "fix" to any of this. I also know that many people have a skewed view of what they bring to a relationship. You're such a giving husband, you do all the housework, she's spoiled and narcissistic. I'm sure your wife would have her own view of both her and your behavior. 
Yes, there are lots of cry babies out there, lots of blame to be spread around, lots of lonely men and women who are looking to feel better about themselves. This book is not the be all-end all of reasons for cheating. Pigeon-holing women into specific emotional stages that caused them to cheat is ridiculous.


----------



## rebelm

Complexity said:


> What pains me the most is that there are husbands out there who adored their wives, were men and provided for them, were there for them emotionally but _still_ that wasn't good enough. Even those wives who complain of emotional neglect but know their husbands are good men on the inside, I don't know how they can rationalise cheating given the HUGE disparity in pain it would cause.
> 
> It's like no matter what you do, it's just not enough.
> 
> You're right about remarriage.


My first and second wife cheated. My first was over at twentyone after three years. We were both at fault for sure in that one. 

The second we are working out after catching her a few months back. A two year affair. Been married over 16. I am one of those you speak of. Never cheated and gave her everything I could. I'm not the jealous type at all. Made it easier for her since talking to guys wan't an issue. I come from a family of males who cook. I clean, repair. We even literally built our own home over four years and paid cash for a great 2000 sq ft home we have been in for ten years. I couldn't have been a better husband.

Yet it only takes one fault to become an issue. We both are great in most areas. It doesn't matter how good someone may be. All that counts is being bad in a matter the other doesn't like. We have been very happy the last two months. Hope things continue. Though she has her faults as I do as well there are great things about her.


----------



## Complexity

rebelm said:


> My first and second wife cheated. My first was over at twentyone after three years. We were both at fault for sure in that one.
> 
> The second we are working out after catching her a few months back. *A two year affair*. Been married over 16. I am one of those you speak of. Never cheated and gave her everything I could. I'm not the jealous type at all. Mad it easier for her since talking to guys wan't an issue. I come from a family of males who cook. I clean, repair. We even literally built our own home over four years and paid cash for a great 2000 sq ft home we have been in for ten years. I couldn't have been a better husband.
> 
> Yet it only takes one fault to become an issue. We both are great in most areas. It doesn't matter how good someone may be. All that counts is being bad in a matter the other doesn't like. We have been very happy the last two months. Hope things continue. Though she has her faults as I do as well there are great things about her.


Good grief, I don't think it would be humanely possible for me to get over an affair that's been going on for that long. 

Wish you the best though


----------



## rebelm

Complexity said:


> Good grief, I don't think it would be humanely possible for me to get over an affair that's been going on for that long.
> 
> Wish you the best though


Her extreme remorse is one reason I am here. I guess the other is if I want to marry again I don't see the odds of finding a woman who want cheat as very great. My decision lies between her being for real and spending life with company I enjoy or living alone. Which isn't a preference but may come to pass. Definitely won't waste time on another marriage just to end up at the same place again. I never paid attention till the past year how hard it is to find women who are faithfull. I always though it was men.

I didn't have it near as hard as my coworker though. He doesn't even cuss much less anything else. Works hard. All around great guy. Then he found out his third child wasn't his. I would have called it quits in that situation as he did.


----------



## Complexity

rebelm said:


> Her extreme remorse is one reason I am here. I guess the other is if I want to marry again I don't see the odds of finding a woman who want cheat as very great. My decision lies between her being for real and spending life with company I enjoy or living alone. Which isn't a preference but may come to pass. Definitely won't waste time on another marriage just to end up at the same place again. I never paid attention till the past year how hard it is to find women who are faithfull. I always though it was men.
> 
> I didn't have it near as hard as my coworker though. He doesn't even cuss much less anything else. Works hard. All around great guy. Then he found out his third child wasn't his. I would have called it quits in that situation as he did.


I'm sorry man, you seem like a good guy who doesn't deserve to settle for this but I guess you know what's best for you.

Isn't it sad how bad it's gotten though. Not only have women caught up with men in terms of cheating but what's even more depressing is that you put off the idea of divorce because the likelihood of finding a faithful spouse is negligible. Sigh, just make sure she's been genuine with her remorse. Don't be a doormat to her.


----------



## FrankKissel

chapparal said:


> So I guess we're supposed to break up the 4 year cycle by keeping the wives barefoot and pregnant.
> 
> Actually, it brings up the question as to why divorce, and infidelity have skyrocketed lately. Easier, no fault, divorce laws of course is the big reason. Infidelity has tripled since 1997. Internet?


Actually, divorce rates have fallen, some would say pretty significantly, over the last three decades. According to one news story I found (can't link off my phone) the rate peaked at 5.3 divorces per 1,000 people in 1981. In 2009, it was 3.4 per 1,000. In a country of 300 million people, that's a big decline. Certainly not skyrocketing.

What's your source on infidelity having tripled since 1997? Studies have shown more infidelity, but nothing close to three times more. 



> " on a typical Monday between 2,500 and 3,000 women sign-up for the site. But on the day after Mother's Day in 2009,************ saw close to 24,000 new female members. (No surprise: The day after Valentine's Day took first prize for most new female memberships on this site.) "


I call bull----.
Does anyone really believe as many as 3,000 women a day - heck, 3,000 a week - are signing on to one specific website to cheat?
Oh, please. 
That doesn't at all sound like advertising for horny (and gullible) men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rebelm

Complexity said:


> I'm sorry man, you seem like a good guy who doesn't deserve to settle for this but I guess you know what's best for you.
> 
> Isn't it sad how bad it's gotten though. Not only have women caught up with men in terms of cheating but what's even more depressing is that you put off the idea of divorce because the likelihood of finding a faithful spouse is negligible. Sigh, just make sure she's been genuine with her remorse. Don't be a doormat to her.


I'm putting it off because she has done everything I have requested. She goes out of her way to make things better. She is totally different. She found out what my value is by finding out there are way worse men out there. She would have never gotten a chance if she wouldn't have chased me down. When she took those divorce papers home reality hit her. What I meant was if this can't work I'm done. No I don't have any faith in finding a faithful woman. My mom, my sister, most of my sister in laws, and recently my daughter have done it. Coupled with two wives why would I have faith in it? I lost my belief in monogamy quite a while ago.


----------



## Jen's Husband

Complexity said:


> I'm sorry man, you seem like a good guy who doesn't deserve to settle for this but I guess you know what's best for you.
> 
> Isn't it sad how bad it's gotten though. Not only have women caught up with men in terms of cheating but what's even more depressing is that you put off the idea of divorce because *the likelihood of finding a faithful spouse is negligible*. Sigh, just make sure she's been genuine with her remorse. Don't be a doormat to her.


Is this true? Have men found recently that it's difficult to find a loyal wife? I'm not doubting, I'm just shocked that so much of this seems to be out there now. But I worried that I was exaggerating the situation in my mind. I've known a few men who've been cheated on, and my own wife has seemed at times like she might. I'm just so down about things having read what's happened to people on this site and on this thread.


----------



## Chaparral

FrankKissel said:


> Actually, divorce rates have fallen, some would say pretty significantly, over the last three decades. According to one news story I found (can't link off my phone) the rate peaked at 5.3 divorces per 1,000 people in 1981. In 2009, it was 3.4 per 1,000. In a country of 300 million people, that's a big decline. Certainly not skyrocketing.
> 
> What's your source on infidelity having tripled since 1997? Studies have shown more infidelity, but nothing close to three times more.
> 
> 
> 
> I call bull----.
> Does anyone really believe as many as 3,000 women a day - heck, 3,000 a week - are signing on to one specific website to cheat?
> Oh, please.
> That doesn't at all sound like advertising for horny (and gullible) men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As far as divorce goes it is supposedly at 50-51%. I have seen it stated that the real divorce rate is much lower because people with multiple divorces skew the figure.

Last mothers day the news about the days most cheated on was widely reported and its easy to google if your interested.

Infidelity tripling since 1997,I believe came from a list of infidelity stats. You can google infidelity stats if you have the stomach for it. It is very sobering.

For example 70 to 75% of people claim they would like to cheat if they knew they would not get caught. I assume they took the pole among sober people. Another is only 1 out of 5 affairs are ever discovered.


----------



## Complexity

rebelm said:


> I'm putting it off because she has done everything I have requested. She goes out of her way to make things better. She is totally different. She found out what my value is by finding out there are way worse men out there. She would have never gotten a chance if she wouldn't have chased me down. When she took those divorce papers home reality hit her. What I meant was if this can't work I'm done. No I don't have any faith in finding a faithful woman. My mom, my sister, most of my sister in laws, and recently my daughter have done it. Coupled with two wives why would I have faith in it? I lost my belief in monogamy quite a while ago.


That's good atleast, so long as you're satisfied with her remorse I hope for the best for your marriage. 



Jen's Husband said:


> Is this true? Have men found recently that it's difficult to find a loyal wife? I'm not doubting, I'm just shocked that so much of this seems to be out there now. But I worried that I was exaggerating the situation in my mind. I've known a few men who've been cheated on, and my own wife has seemed at times like she might. I'm just so down about things having read what's happened to people on this site and on this thread.


I know how you feel. Apparently 74% of all divorces are a result of infidelity. Just reading this board, 90% of the betrayed spouses are men.


----------



## working_together

COguy said:


> This struck a chord with me because I saw it in my wife and her friends that went wayward. Actually in counseling during her EA my wife said, "I shouldn't have to tell him what I want, he should just know."
> 
> 
> _Women may want men to make them happy, but they do not say, and probably do not know themselves, how this might be accomplished. “Women want men to read their minds—or, more accurately, their emotions—because it’s what they do, easily…. Females want males to anticipate their needs and desires.” (Obeying their every command is not enough.) Women do in fact have a greater ability to perceive the needs and feelings of others without verbal communication, an evolved adaptation to the requirements of successfully nurturing infants. When they expect their husbands to have this same ability, they are in effect upset that their husbands are not women.
> Eventually, women do come out and tell their husbands they are “unhappy.” But this does not mean they have any intention of working on improving the marriage; women ordinarily make no overt, specific complaints until they are
> 100 percent done with the relationship—meaning [they] have lost all feeling…. It’s not uncommon for women to eventually feel less for their husbands than they would for a stranger on the street…. When women start being specific to men about their needs, it’s usually only to let their husbands know all the many areas in which they have failed. In other words, their husbands have already been fired; their wives are just giving them the reasons for the termination…. She already has another “Mr. Right” picked out or is eager to find one. She is looking for the feeling of excitement again._


I agree with the "specific complaints when they are done", I'm guilty of that. I told H. what I needed from him way too late, I should have spoken up sooner. I was already angry with him, given up pretty much, he felt my anger, got defensive, then we'd argue about it....nothing solved. And at that point I didn't want to look at what I was doing wrong in the relationship. Obviously he had resentment for me, and therefore didn't want to meet my needs, so we were trapped in the blame game.


----------



## Jen's Husband

working_together said:


> I agree with the "specific complaints when they are done", I'm guilty of that. I told H. what I needed from him way too late, I should have spoken up sooner. I was already angry with him, given up pretty much, he felt my anger, got defensive, then we'd argue about it....nothing solved. And at that point I didn't want to look at what I was doing wrong in the relationship. Obviously he had resentment for me, and therefore didn't want to meet my needs, so we were trapped in the blame game.


Strangely enough, in my case I'd almost see an improvement if my wife became "the angry one." She's gotten her way so long, and I've been the one trying to fix things and actually care about the marriage, that I'm really looking forward to the day when she comes home and has a list of real complaints. Thing is, she complains anyway, but it's just about things that are unrelated to any reality I'm aware of. Her complaints are specific, but they're about things like not having a fairy castle in the clouds to return home to after her hard 6 hour day of work. Now that I've started to just do what I want and not care if it doesn't work for her, she's starting up with the whining about how I don't communicate for the first time in our marriage (she has always been the one to ignore me or respond with one syllable). But she can't take it too far and she knows it since the first 15 years of our relationship involved me catering so much to her. I don't want to ruin my marriage, but I'll behave poorly for a while in order to help balance the books a little.


----------



## Almostrecovered

chapparal said:


> As far as divorce goes it is supposedly at 50-51%. I have seen it stated that the real divorce rate is much lower because people with multiple divorces skew the figure.



Overall rate

1st time marriages are closer to 40%


----------



## hookares

Back to the original post:

Where is stage 5?
That's the one where the cheater has lived a life of being everybody's "prince or princess", and had always been "1st" in everything?
These people can manipulate their SO in such a way that they can make everything wrong in the relationship the SO's fault and carry on many affairs without being discovered.
#5's will stay in the marriage simply for financial reasons and if they are female, manipulate the legal system in such a way that the victim can't even get out of the marriage wearing the shoes on their feet.
Get burned by one of those and you will vow to go it alone for the rest of your life.


----------



## TheGoodFight

hookares said:


> Back to the original post:
> 
> Where is stage 5?
> That's the one where the cheater has lived a life of being everybody's "prince or princess", and had always been "1st" in everything?
> These people can manipulate their SO in such a way that they can make everything wrong in the relationship the SO's fault and carry on many affairs without being discovered.
> #5's will stay in the marriage simply for financial reasons and if they are female, manipulate the legal system in such a way that the victim can't even get out of the marriage wearing the shoes on their feet.
> Get burned by one of those and you will vow to go it alone for the rest of your life.


I'm glad that's not my wife. Some people turn into complete physcos once the sh1t hits the fan. 

After reading the book a couple of times, I've concluded that it doesn't really apply to my situation all that much. I just don't buy into the whole "women start looking for some strange and cheat because of it" and it's completely normal and destined to be.

Even those who have responded to this thread who said the stages fit them, denied that they cheated for the sex. Just saying.

I read those stages as being all about being bored with sex with the same partner.


----------



## Beowulf

Jen's Husband said:


> Is this true? Have men found recently that it's difficult to find a loyal wife? I'm not doubting, I'm just shocked that so much of this seems to be out there now. But I worried that I was exaggerating the situation in my mind. I've known a few men who've been cheated on, and my own wife has seemed at times like she might. I'm just so down about things having read what's happened to people on this site and on this thread.


Have you ever gone to Athol Kay's blog Married Man Sex Life? If you do check out some of the other blogs in the "manosphere". The reason that more and more men are staying single and "gaming" women is because many feel that the "system" has been skewed so far that in general women can't be trusted to stay monogamous in a long term relationship. I weep for the current generation and what they'll have to deal with.


----------



## Jen's Husband

Beowulf said:


> Have you ever gone to Athol Kay's blog Married Man Sex Life? If you do check out some of the other blogs in the "manosphere". The reason that more and more men are staying single and "gaming" women is because many feel that the "system" has been skewed so far that in general women can't be trusted to stay monogamous in a long term relationship. I weep for the current generation and what they'll have to deal with.


Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely check that out. I think that a lot of men right now are wondering what's happened to change things this way, or maybe they were always this way but we're just aware of it now. I think for some of us who wanted and expected traditional marriage, staying loyal and never really having that time to mess around and date, the whole situation is kind of surprising. I never in a million years, after 15 years of being a good husband and responsible and never dreaming of stepping out, would have expected to hear my wife talking about threesomes, one night stands or how much fun she had in college being taken advantage of by uncaring frat guy types. I hate the idea that a man can do the right thing forever and still get paid this way. I don't think all women are this way now, but a lot more are than I thought. I have a few friends who've had their wives step out for a time and then just come back to the marriage when they were done, not really apologetic or one even with the attitude that he should just forget it all because she's a good wife and mother to his kids. Once I became aware of it, it became difficult to not notice this same attitude on my wife's tv shows and movies as well.


----------



## Beowulf

Many men say it is because of the way divorces are handled. Most states have no fault divorces so infidelity cannot be brought into the equation. If someone cheats it doesn't become public knowledge anymore.

Another reason given is that women used to be tied to a man's finances and if divorced most women would have financial difficulty. Now with more and more women in the workforce and the court's stance on alimony women can divorce and not worry about where the money will come from.

I feel those reasons are part of it but also people just don't want to work at marriage anymore. It's too damned easy to get a divorce and with so many more already divorced the social stigma is not there. In today's world both spouses work outside the home. Because of crazy schedules and harried lives time is valuable. People just find it easier to split than to spend the time and effort necessary to have a successful marriage. The one thing I repeatedly say to WS on this site is that if they had spent 1/2 the energy they used in having an affair on improving their marriage they would never have had the affair in the first place.

The ironic thing is that statistics show that 80% of people who get divorces wish they had stayed together. By then it's too late.


----------



## DubeGechi

Beowulf said:


> The ironic thing is that statistics show that 80% of people who get divorces wish they had stayed together. By then it's too late.


I have a feeling that this is because of the kids (if any). Only because of the kids I never thought of divorce and were willing take all this crap she could give to me.


----------



## FrankKissel

Almostrecovered said:


> Overall rate
> 
> 1st time marriages are closer to 40%


And, interestingly, it's much lower for those with college degrees than those without.
Also interesting: a college dropout is the most likely to divorce. I suspect it has something to do with not being able to finish what you started.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lascarx

Beowulf said:


> The ironic thing is that statistics show that 80% of people who get divorces wish they had stayed together. By then it's too late.


My take on that would be that things didn't turn out all sweetness and perfection after the divorce - so instead of weighing it out carefully and finding that divorcing was still all for the best, they flip-flop and say I-wish-I-hadn't. Anything to avoid recognition of the fact that life isn't a candy store no matter what you do.

Doing, then wishing, then re-wishing all over again is all part of the game of irrational, excessive expectations. Usually doesn't end until the expectations are brought into line with reality. My divorce won't be a trip to Disney World, but I'll still end up a whole lot better for it. Small improvements count too.


----------



## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> My take on that would be that things didn't turn out all sweetness and perfection after the divorce - so instead of weighing it out carefully and finding that divorcing was still all for the best, they flip-flop and say I-wish-I-hadn't. Anything to avoid recognition of the fact that life isn't a candy store no matter what you do.
> 
> Doing, then wishing, then re-wishing all over again is all part of the game of irrational, excessive expectations. Usually doesn't end until the expectations are brought into line with reality. My divorce won't be a trip to Disney World, but I'll still end up a whole lot better for it. Small improvements count too.


That may be true but I think it's because people get divorced thinking it's easier than working out the problems in the marriage. Then after the divorce they find the problems are still there and some new ones like child visitation, financial concerns, relationship issues have been added. Divorce is not a magic eraser. Whatever the problems were they still have to be addressed regardless of the relationship going forward.


----------



## Almostrecovered

FrankKissel said:


> And, interestingly, it's much lower for those with college degrees than those without.
> Also interesting: a college dropout is the most likely to divorce. I suspect it has something to do with not being able to finish what you started.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



probably more likely to do with economics and income


----------



## FrankKissel

Almostrecovered said:


> probably more likely to do with economics and income


I doubt it. One could assume that a person with some college, but not a degree, would be at least as well off as someone with no college at all. And yet they're divorcing at a higher rate.

As for college grads vs non grads, economics probably does play a role, but the people conducting these studies think a larger factor is that college grads tend to wait longer to get married than non grads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

Almostrecovered said:


> probably more likely to do with economics and income


:rofl: :iagree:



Beowulf said:


> The ironic thing is that statistics show that 80% of people who get divorces wish they had stayed together. By then it's too late.


I don't agree with that # at all. While most people regret that their marriage did not last, I think in the end, people are happier and come to accept it was not meant to be. Plus, for the one who didn't want the divorce (as most divorces are NOT mutual), they eventually are relieved to be out of a relationship with someone who didn't want to put in the same amount of effort and walked away/terminated the marriage. Win-win.



Beowulf said:


> Divorce is not a magic eraser. Whatever the problems were they still have to be addressed regardless of the relationship going forward.


Agreed. Which is why people should look inwards after a divorce and see what part they contributed to the marital demise and own it and also look at what their partner did and commit to not repeat bad relationship patterns.


----------



## Beowulf

Jellybeans said:


> :rofl: :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with that # at all. While most people regret that their marriage did not last, I think in the end, people are happier and come to accept it was not meant to be. Plus, for the one who didn't want the divorce (as most divorces are NOT mutual), they eventually are relieved to be out of a relationship with someone who didn't want to put in the same amount of effort and walked away/terminated the marriage. Win-win.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Which is why people should look inwards after a divorce and see what part they contributed to the marital demise and own it and also look at what their partner did and commit to not repeat bad relationship patterns.


I agree that people should look inwards to see where they contributed to the marriage's demise but I feel that if they did that while STILL married maybe the marriage could have been saved. Maybe I'm just a naive optimist though.


----------



## Jellybeans

Beowulf said:


> I agree that people should look inwards to see where they contributed to the marriage's demise but I feel that if they did that while STILL married maybe the marriage could have been saved. Maybe I'm just a naive optimist though.


Well, of course. But the fact is, divorces do happen. Most of the time they are not mutual. One person generally wants out,and the other has to concede. And one person alone cannot make it work. So if one person wants out, they are actually giving the one who wants to stay in the marriage a gift. Because it's a huge fundamental difference. Both parties get to go on their own way w/o staying in a one-sided marriage. Win-win.


----------



## lascarx

Beowulf said:


> That may be true but I think it's because people get divorced thinking it's easier than working out the problems in the marriage.


Might be true for some people. But there are others of us with spouses who are themselves the problems, amoral and irreparable. Can't say what's the exception and what's the rule. Might be 50-50. Point is if you start with what is best for you alone and let that be your guide, you're most likely not to step wrong.



Beowulf said:


> Divorce is not a magic eraser. Whatever the problems were they still have to be addressed regardless of the relationship going forward.


Sometimes addressing the problem means cutting it out like a cancer. Divorce may not be a magic eraser, but it looks to make a darned good scalpel.



Jellybeans said:


> Both parties get to go on their own way w/o staying in a one-sided marriage. Win-win.


Now that's just good sense.


----------



## poetic1

Wow, long thread! Lots to read here. Can someone save me some time and tell me what the general consensus on this book was? It's a small price to pay if it helps, but an overpriced rip off if it doesn't.


----------



## COguy

poetic1 said:


> Wow, long thread! Lots to read here. Can someone save me some time and tell me what the general consensus on this book was? It's a small price to pay if it helps, but an overpriced rip off if it doesn't.


My take on the thread was, good book, lots of on-the-ground type info. The signs are mostly accurate, but the underlying assumption about why women cheat (unfamiliarity with their sexuality) is not applicable to every situation.


----------



## TheGoodFight

COguy said:


> The signs are mostly accurate, but the underlying assumption about why women cheat (unfamiliarity with their sexuality) is not applicable to every situation.


I'd agree with this. It's an interesting read but it pretty much states that most women cheat for the same reason. That reason being that they become bored with their sex partners and want some variety. 

Kind of a very feminist take on why women cheat which I'm sure was accurate for the author but IMO doesn't apply to even most cases. The reasons for cheating for both men and women are all over the board.

It does make an interesting point about how fidelity is a choice that we all have to make. It doesn't just happen.


----------



## Falene

I would say that most women cheat due to emotional reasons and not for a greater variety in their sex lives.


----------



## Stryker

Falene said:


> I would say that most women cheat due to emotional reasons and not for a greater variety in their sex lives.


Emotional reasons , yes...and mostly the emotions are of love pertaining to sex by default of feminine make ...hence variety is resulted...


----------



## poetic1

I'm less interested in the book explaining why my wife cheated, unless having my wife read this would help her snap out of it. Has anyone found that to be the case?

I'm would also be interested if the book gives me tactics on how to snap her out of it, tactics that aren't already covered here, such as 180 or plan A/B, or covers them more in depth. Has anyone found that to be the case?


----------



## FrankKissel

TheGoodFight said:


> I'd agree with this. It's an interesting read but it pretty much states that most women cheat for the same reason. That reason being that they become bored with their sex partners and want some variety.
> 
> Kind of a very feminist take on why women cheat which I'm sure was accurate for the author but IMO doesn't apply to even most cases. The reasons for cheating for both men and women are all over the board.
> 
> It does make an interesting point about how fidelity is a choice that we all have to make. It doesn't just happen.


It's probably worth noting that this book is based on interviews with women who went out of their way and volunteered to talk about their actions and experiences. I tend to believe that the kind of person who does that is one who feels justifed, and certainly not ashamed, in her actions and feels the need to rationalize her bad behavior.

I suspect the conclusions one would draw from such interviews would be very different from those one might draw from speaking with someone who feels remorse, regret and shame. Of course, people who feel remorse, regret and shame usually aren't eager to give interviews about it. 

So, while I'm sure the book might have some value, I wouldn't draw any major conclusions from it given the less than complete sample size with which the author (who, by the way, has no scientific or psychological background) works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodFight

Falene said:


> I would say that most women cheat due to emotional reasons and not for a greater variety in their sex lives.


Well that is the conventional thinking right? Women for an emotional bond and then want sex. Men go for the sex first and then form an emotional bond.

One of the themes of the book is that because of this thinking, women who find another man sexualy attractive who is not their mate conclude that this must be because they don't love their mates anymore. And they further conclude that they must now be in love with the guy they are attracted to.

Not saying I agree, only that it's an interesting hypothesis.


----------



## Falene

So the concept is that a woman finds a man sexually appealing and then assumes it is an emotional need when it was nothing but sexual? Could this be due to the fact that when society characterizes women as sexual creatures it almost always carries a negative connotation? Does a woman have to place it into an emotional area simply in order not to feel like a wanton woman? You are absolutely right, it is interesting. 

I can only go by my own perspective but I find many men sexually attractive and since I married my husband I have attempted to have sex with/have had sex with exactly none of them. I also have not had any EAs either or felt the need to (until recently but that is an entirely different bit of drama). 

To me there is a huge difference between finding someone sexually appealing and having an emotional need for that person but I should say that my sister and friends say I am more "guy brained" than female brained so I may not be the best example of a woman for this one.


----------



## Stryker

falene said:


> but i should say that my sister and friends say i am more "guy brained" than female brained so i may not be the best example of a woman for this one.


mere emotional realms are antagonistic to clear reasoning...and thus i think u have intellect used in a balanced manner like most men...


----------



## Stryker

It's Stating Women can cheat more than Men....means they are capable of doing it..and they are doing it....MORE Than MEN.....It can be Some or Many or any number, but in General Women cheat more than Men..since it has to do with their Anatomy and Physiology....and hence ultimately the LIBIDO...

The Executive Control of Women is Weak and Fragile owing to their make and thus they are Vulnerable ....to Cheat..(even to be Cheated too IN THEIR EMOTIONAL CHOICE)


----------



## TheGoodFight

Here is where Michelle Langley is coming from:


> "women aren’t naturally monogamous?
> Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. On some level you must
> realize that we teach girls this myth in order to control their sexual behavior."
> 
> "...young females are conditioned to believe that they
> are naturally monogamous and they carry this belief with them
> throughout their lifetimes. So when women experience feelings
> that deviate from this belief, particularly after they are married, those feelings can cause enormous internal conflict. Many women resolve the dilemma by dissolving their marriages...
> 
> Some women find it easier to think they married the wrong
> guy than to see themselves as some sort of shameful freak of nature.
> 
> Their erroneous belief in a monogamous predisposition prevents
> them from becoming aware of their natural sexual tendencies
> in the first place. This unawareness can cause a chain reaction
> that ultimately destroys their marriages. What I’m trying to tell
> you is, your wife’s body may just be wanting something different, or as you probably call it, wanting some “strange.” "


----------



## confu?ed

thegoodfight said:


> i think the ah-ha moment is when people realize that they must work to create their own happiness within the boundries of the commitments they have made.


amen!


----------



## Stryker

A Scientific Example on Traits of Sexuality of Men and Women...

Studies using plethysmographs -- an instrument that measures physiological arousal -- also point to a biological answer for explaining the differences in male and female sexuality. 

*Heterosexual women hooked up to a plethysmograph showed symptoms of physiological arousal in response to lesbian erotica; even those women who denied having interest in sex with another woman showed arousal in these tests.*

*Heterosexual men, on the other hand, were much less likely to experience physiological arousal while watching male homosexual acts*

*Apparently, female sexuality is much more likely to be fluid (i.e. bisexual) while male sexuality is more likely to be dichotomous and rigid (i.e. either gay or straight.)*

Ponder...


----------



## TheGoodFight

Are you trying to be random or are you trying to make the point that Michelle Langley is not a scientist? That point has already been made.


----------



## Falene

Stryker said:


> It's Stating Women can cheat more than Men....means they are capable of doing it..and they are doing it....MORE Than MEN.....It can be Some or Many or any number, but in General Women cheat more than Men..since it has to do with their Anatomy and Physiology....and hence ultimately the LIBIDO...
> 
> The Executive Control of Women is Weak and Fragile owing to their make and thus they are Vulnerable ....to Cheat..(even to be Cheated too IN THEIR EMOTIONAL CHOICE)


I cannot attest that men cheat more or that women cheat more but I can tell you that in my life experience men are the cheaters hands down.



TheGoodFight said:


> Here is where Michelle Langley is coming from:


Thank you, I understand it better now.



Stryker said:


> A Scientific Example on Traits of Sexuality of Men and Women...
> 
> Studies using plethysmographs -- an instrument that measures physiological arousal -- also point to a biological answer for explaining the differences in male and female sexuality.
> 
> *Heterosexual women hooked up to a plethysmograph showed symptoms of physiological arousal in response to lesbian erotica; even those women who denied having interest in sex with another woman showed arousal in these tests.*
> 
> *Heterosexual men, on the other hand, were much less likely to experience physiological arousal while watching male homosexual acts*
> 
> *Apparently, female sexuality is much more likely to be fluid (i.e. bisexual) while male sexuality is more likely to be dichotomous and rigid (i.e. either gay or straight.)*
> 
> Ponder...


I would say that is accurate and it may very well go back to society's stance on all of it.

For some reason bisexual men are looked down upon more than bisexual women.


----------



## Stryker

*Biochemical research points to a natural four-year sexual cycle for the human female. This apparently allows enough time after childbirth for the average mother in a state of savagery to regain her ability to survive without male provisioning. In the absence of any system of marriage, a woman’s natural tendency is to “liberate” herself from her mate after that point. When her hormones prompt her to reproduce again, she simply takes a new mate.*








------


2 Vol. 7, No. 2 The Occidental Quartererly


Langley cites Helen Fisher’s Anatomy of Love and Burnham and Phelan’s Mean Genes in support of this account. According to the latter, separation and divorce are most likely to occur in the fourth year of marriage “across more than sixty radically different cultures.”
Feral female sexual behavior is governed by a number of chemicals. The euphoria of infatuation is associated with the stimulant pheylethylamine, naturally produced in the body by erotic attraction. As with other drugs, it is addictive, and people gradually build up a tolerance to it, requiring ever-greater levels to achieve the same effect. Over time, it loses its power over us, and infatuation is replaced by a calm feeling of attachment to our mates.


There are neurochemical factors at work here as well. But the feeling of attachment or bondedness is akin to the effect of a sedative or narcotic rather than a stimulant.


Next there are hormones to consider. The sex drive, in both men and women, is linked to testosterone levels. These are, of course, always higher in men; but the difference is greatest in early adulthood when people have traditionally taken their mates.


As men age, their testosterone levels gradually decrease; women’s levels rise.

Going into their thirties, women get hairier, their voices deepen, and they behave more assertively.

And, in the author’s words, “it’s also quite common for them to experience a dramatic increase in their desire for other men.”

(Langley cites Theresa Crenshaw’s The Alchemy of Love and Lust and Michael Liebowitz’s The Chemistry of Love on these matters.)


The author is not a professional researcher in any of these fields herself. She relates that, after four years of happy marriage and shortly after her 27th birthday, she began to feel bored and unhappy for no apparent reason. She turned to a number of books and professionals, all of whom agreed that the fault lay with her husband; she adopted this now conventional view for a time herself. Fortunately—and unlike most women—she kept digging for answers. She met women, at first accidentally, who described similar experiences, and questioned them. Later she began seeking women out for lengthy interviews. She eventually interviewed men as well. It is worth noting that she managed to devote several hours a week to this research without any degree in sociology or taxpayer-funded grants. Gradually, consistent patterns began to emerge from the stories she was hearing. “By the time I stopped counting, I had interviewed 123 women and 72 men…. I found it fascinating that something so prevalent could be kept so secret.”


What, then, did she learn?

*First, women are more likely than men to confuse sexual attraction with love. The sexes speak differently of the feelings associated with the early stages of a romantic affair:
*

*Most men I have talked to call it infatuation,

but most of the women I have talked to call it being in love…(to be noted)
*
................................*Women in particular may believe that, if they find the right person, intense feelings can last. They’ve been taught to believe that they should only want sex with someone they love. ....................*.............................. a*nd whenever they feel of such a love , as frequent it can be, they tend to have sex.....................................................*


----------



## Stryker

Falene said:


> I cannot attest that men cheat more or that women cheat more but I can tell you that in my life experience men are the cheaters hands down.
> 
> 
> ---SUBJECTIVE....BE OBJECTIVE ...BE AWARE OF THE OBJECTIVE FACT....
> 
> ITS THERE IN THE ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY OF THE FEMALE HUMAN..
> 
> 
> ====
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that is accurate and it may very well go back to society's stance on all of it.
> 
> For some reason bisexual men are looked down upon more than bisexual women.



======Evolutionary answers to our question find their root in early human history.

Those early days of evolving social structures featured a dominant male and a group of females; this male-female dynamic may have continued on into modern day life. Proponents of evolutionary theory argue that the dominant male had sexual access to females and usually fought any other male who sought access to supremacy. Thus, male-male relationships were characterized by hostility and competition for access to the females.

*On the other hand, females in the pack were only intermittently serviced by the dominant male and, at other times, could assuage their sexual desires only with each other.
*

*Moreover, the sight of two females engaging in sexual activity may have triggered the dominant male's arousal, as it was a sign that one or both of the females were entering their fertile periods.

The offspring that resulted from these unions would therefore be more likely to carry genes that favored bisexuality in women and a positive male response to that bisexuality.
*



-------------
*Throughout the centuries, women have been expected to be caring and nurturing, and therefore have been permitted far more physical contact with each other than their male counterparts. Being affectionate with another woman does not threaten a woman's sense of femininity, whereas a male expression of affection toward another man is viewed as a direct threat to his masculinity.
*
*Society has always bestowed greater shame and punishment on male homosexuals than upon lesbians.

In fact, lesbian acts have been considered quite proper in harems and polygamous marriages( eg.A Large number of wives of a King, ie queens, concubines and their caretaking Eunuchs in PALACES) -- which were common in many societies in ancient times and still exist in some cultures today.


*


----------



## Stryker

TheGoodFight said:


> Are you trying to be random or are you trying to make the point that Michelle Langley is not a scientist? That point has already been made.


Though Michelle is not a Scientist, whatever she observed has its Empirical Significance and point to Matters of Facts...

Michelle is Lovely in her Truth Seeking...and Finding it enough and destroying the Distorted Societal Beliefs and so called Statistics,Survey Reports etc..


----------



## Almostrecovered

Infidels!!!


----------



## TheGoodFight

I think all the ****/hetero stuff you posted is interesting, I just don't see how it fits into a discussion about this book. Maybe I'm missing it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

It's fits into his opinion he likes to espouse in this forum


----------



## Stryker

TheGoodFight said:


> I think all the ****/hetero stuff you posted is interesting, I just don't see how it fits into a discussion about this book. Maybe I'm missing it.


---It is cited for knowing The Natural n Nurtured Makes of Men and Women , Esp on Sexual Behaviours...

and Michelle Langley has been telling on same , viz The Natures and thus Sexual Behaviours ,Reasons for Infidelity of Women and Thus The Book...

---and you had been missing on the "fitness" to the topic,owing to of lack of awareness,and being shallow on the information and narrow perspectives ....just as many ...who are in inertia of prejudiced data...


----------



## poetic1

poetic1 said:


> I'm less interested in the book explaining why my wife cheated, unless having my wife read this would help her snap out of it. Has anyone found that to be the case?
> 
> I'm would also be interested if the book gives me tactics on how to snap her out of it, tactics that aren't already covered here, such as 180 or plan A/B, or covers them more in depth. Has anyone found that to be the case?


Maybe I'll buy it anyways. I guess it's cheap compared to the cost of divorce! I just don't want it to do more damage than good... My wife is convinced that her EA is not why our marriage is in trouble. She has significantly re-written history.


----------



## FrankKissel

Stryker said:


> It's Stating Women can cheat more than Men....means they are capable of doing it..and they are doing it....MORE Than MEN.....It can be Some or Many or any number, but in General Women cheat more than Men..since it has to do with their Anatomy and Physiology....and hence ultimately the LIBIDO...
> 
> The Executive Control of Women is Weak and Fragile owing to their make and thus they are Vulnerable ....to Cheat..(even to be Cheated too IN THEIR EMOTIONAL CHOICE)


There's not one single scientific study of which I'm aware that supports your claim that women cheat more than men.
Could you cite some actual evidence, please, rather than cutting and pasting chosen excerpts you find on Google.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COguy

poetic1 said:


> I'm less interested in the book explaining why my wife cheated, unless having my wife read this would help her snap out of it. Has anyone found that to be the case?
> 
> I'm would also be interested if the book gives me tactics on how to snap her out of it, tactics that aren't already covered here, such as 180 or plan A/B, or covers them more in depth. Has anyone found that to be the case?


It doesn't, short of the small paragraph posted in the forum about the two subjects who dealt with it differently. And even though I think that paragraph is extremely insightful, I think it is just a practical application of the 180.


----------



## Chaparral

Falene said:


> I cannot attest that men cheat more or that women cheat more but I can tell you that in my life experience men are the cheaters hands down.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I understand it better now.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that is accurate and it may very well go back to society's stance on all of it.
> 
> For some reason bisexual men are looked down upon more than bisexual women.


It looks to me like men and women must cheat in equal numbers. Otherwise who are the men cheating with? If men cheat more, then they are cheating with fewer women. That mens women who do cheat, cheat with more partners than men who cheat. Since it takes two to tango. Its known that women are less likely to admit cheating to researchers and men are more likely to exagerate there exploits. Just sayin


----------



## TheGoodFight

That would be true if you make the assumption that both parties are married. If one AP is married and the other is single, then only one of them is "cheating". I agree though, I don't happen to think women cheat more than me or men cheat more than women.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, the book's author seems to believe that women are more likely to pick men that are "hard to get", which may mean that women tend to have affairs more often with other married men rather than available single men. I thinl she does make that point somewhere else in the book.

What she says:



> When it comes to marriage, women are conditioned to believe that men are the “choosers,” while they are the ones waiting to be chosen. This makes them more inclined to go after men who are unattainable or unavailable, so they can remain excited for an indefinite period of time.
> 
> Females want the excitement to last, and for them it does last—until after they have a commitment. However, once they accomplish their goal, the feeling of excitement goes away, which is very disappointing because the excitement was what they wanted and they thought it would last.
> 
> It’s not uncommon for women to pine for men who shy away from commitment, while they shun the attention given to them by men who are willing and ready to make a commitment. Males have similar feelings prior to having sex with females.
> 
> If females were taught to believe that males wanted to get married, they wouldn’t be challenged or excited about getting men to marry them.
> 
> Unfortunately for men, women tend to end their relationships in the same way they start them, without men ever being the wiser.
> 
> A man may not be aware that a woman has chosen him to be “Mr. Right,” and he may be equally unaware when she decides he is no longer “Mr. Right.”
> 
> When a woman says that she is leaving a relationship, there is usually nothing the man can do to stop her, because she has already made her decision. She may give numerous reasons why she is leaving; however, she is not interested in working on the relationship.
> 
> She already has another “Mr. Right” picked out or is eager to find one. She is looking for the feeling of excitement again.


----------



## Almostrecovered

chapparal said:


> It looks to me like men and women must cheat in equal numbers. Otherwise who are the men cheating with? If men cheat more, then they are cheating with fewer women. That mens women who do cheat, cheat with more partners than men who cheat. Since it takes two to tango. Its known that women are less likely to admit cheating to researchers and men are more likely to exagerate there exploits. Just sayin


if a man uses a prostitute then one male is cheating the female is not

I a married woman bangs her single personal trainer the opposite is true

this why it won't be 50/50- overall more married men use sex workers or prey on single women


----------



## Almostrecovered

TheGoodFight said:


> That would be true if you make the assumption that both parties are married. If one AP is married and the other is single, then only one of them is "cheating". I agree though, I don't happen to think women cheat more than me or men cheat more than women.
> 
> In keeping with the theme of this thread, the book's author seems to believe that women are more likely to pick men that are "hard to get", which may mean that women tend to have affairs more often with other married men rather than available single men. I thinl she does make that point somewhere else in the book.
> 
> What she says:



I've also read that woman desire those who are already desired- it's a weird peer pressure or innate competition among themselves


----------



## Chaparral

Are you saying that if a sinlge person knowingly has an affair/sex with a married person they are not commiting adultery?

I disagree whole heartedly with that.


----------



## poetic1

COguy said:


> It doesn't, short of the small paragraph posted in the forum about the two subjects who dealt with it differently. And even though I think that paragraph is extremely insightful, I think it is just a practical application of the 180.


It looks like it is actually two books, the first one explaining why women cheat, and the second one offering some kind of solutions. Has anyone read the second book?


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> It's probably worth noting that this book is based on interviews with women who went out of their way and volunteered to talk about their actions and experiences. I tend to believe that the kind of person who does that is one who feels justifed, and certainly not ashamed, in her actions and feels the need to rationalize her bad behavior.
> 
> I suspect the conclusions one would draw from such interviews would be very different from those one might draw from speaking with someone who feels remorse, regret and shame. Of course, people who feel remorse, regret and shame usually aren't eager to give interviews about it.
> 
> So, while I'm sure the book might have some value, I wouldn't draw any major conclusions from it given the less than complete sample size with which the author (who, by the way, has no scientific or psychological background) works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree


----------



## Hunger

scary how much it hit home. :/


----------



## LeslieH

Entropy3000 said:


> I totally agree


I disagree somewhat. I found that at least some of what's posted here seems pretty applicable to my case. I'm in full remorse and regret over what happened (more importantly we are working towards R )and have been trying to work through the "why" with my therapist. If I had the opportunity to be anonymously interviewed for a study or book about this subject, I would want to contribute. Just reading these excerpts has been very helpful to me.


----------



## Alyosha

A fantastic book that helped me a lot during my wife's affair.

My boys will definitely be told (at the appropriate time) what Langley reveals in this book -- things that I wish someone had told me about women *BEFORE *I ever got married.


----------



## Sara8

working_together said:


> It's also the way we cater to each others needs. I could care less about a fancy car, fancy house, remodeling my kitchen etc. But many men are programmed by society that women need and want this, and some do, but there's a lot that don't. For some it's on an emotional level.
> 
> I totally agree with you on your point about men having hopes and dreams. We sometimes forget about that.


I know this is an old thread but I have been reading it with interest, trying to figure out the OW who apparently has a wonderful successful husband who pampers her and adores her and still refuses to believe she is a serial cheater. 

In any case, none of this stuff in the book applies to me. I took my vows seriously. I did not have unrealistic expectations of a marriage. I knew they were work and accepted my husbands faults. 

Sadly, I did not think he was a cheater, addicted to porn and the type of guy that hung out in stripper bars. It was such a shock. 

Also, the house thing, the car, kitchen remodeling was never my thing. I like simple things and am a bit tomboyish because I had so many brothers. 

Interestingly, my husband was the one who cared about all those thing. And worse, he was he would want to do these things, while we were in debt just to impress friend or other people. 

His OW also cared about them and they talked about those types of things. it was a bond. The fact that they were both big spender types even though neither could afford to be big spenders. 

Early in our relationship my husband used to brag about me being a low maintenance wife, than later when he started making better money, It bothered him that I was not a big frivolous spender and did not care about fancy cars and such.


----------



## BigLiam

poetic1 said:


> It looks like it is actually two books, the first one explaining why women cheat, and the second one offering some kind of solutions. Has anyone read the second book?


Read them both. Second is really excellent, taking women to task for being poor communicators and immature when they cheat. It dispels a lot of steroetypes about men, notiing that they are , often , more emotionally evolved and better communicators than their cheating wives.


----------



## BigLiam

FrankKissel said:


> There's not one single scientific study of which I'm aware that supports your claim that women cheat more than men.
> Could you cite some actual evidence, please, rather than cutting and pasting chosen excerpts you find on Google.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I doubt any of the studies could be called scientific , as they require self reporting.


----------



## morituri

Here's an interview from a few years back with the author of *Women's Infidelity*.


----------



## DTO

Saffron said:


> Think it's important to remember this is not _all_ women, just those that did cheat and their thought process behind it.


Disagree. I think that the fairy tale existence resonates with a great deal of women, not just those that have cheated. It seems that a typical progression of events is envisioned as:

1. Date
2. Start a serious relationship with a guy who meets your needs.
3. Get married
4. Buy a home
5. Have a child

with the end result being that the woman expects to be the center of attention / top of the totem pole / etc. A man does not just stop having all husbandly wants when the house and child arrive; it seems that many women don't think about "do I like this guy (or maybe any guy) enough to continue being a satisfying wife on top of pulling my weight for this home and child that I had to have?"

I would view the "four stages" from that book as a consensus on how cheating women behave _and a cautionary tale on the pitfalls that await women who do not realize that infatuation fades and having a husband is an ongoing process, not a goal._


----------



## DTO

Complexity said:


> What pains me the most is that there are husbands out there who adored their wives, were men and provided for them, were there for them emotionally but _still_ that wasn't good enough. Even those wives who complain of emotional neglect but know their husbands are good men on the inside, I don't know how they can rationalise cheating given the HUGE disparity in pain it would cause.
> 
> It's like no matter what you do, it's just not enough.


There is a simple explanation for how a woman can rationalize such behavior, and it has to do with the fairy tale wedding issue. 

My honest sense is that guys, as hard-wired providers, come in ready to do their share (or more) to provide for the home, child, and the wife's needs; making significant sacrifices to do so. But, guys have needs as well. Moreover, that strong drive and "can do" attitude that allows guys to strive to provide and put ourselves second is the same drive that will not allow us to continue to be ignored.

Sure, there are meek men that simply don't assert themselves, but IME they are the same ones that do not achieve much in life either. They have fair or poor jobs, little achievement, let everyone else walk all over them as well, and won't be attractive to many women in the first place.

OTOH, many women come in with the fairy tale mindset described earlier. They think that they transition from wife to mother instead of wearing two hats. Their husbands protest (even if they do not "turn down the thermostat", "do a 180", or cheat). The women get offended that the men dare to put themselves on equal footing with her (she is the princess and the prize, and he is just a guy like any other). They convince themselves that they are worth a premium vs. the guy they are with, think the guy is an undeserving jerk for asserting himself, and thus manufacture the justification to cheat.


----------



## DTO

Jen's Husband said:


> This is spot on. I think this is what bothers me the most about things, despite not having lost nearly as much as some folks here. I've been the one bending over backwards for years to give her exactly what she said she needs in the given moment and it amounted to nothing. Even when we fight, her greatest complaint now is my failure to forget whatever wrong she's done and also to get back to fulfilling her various materialistic hopes and dreams. What bothers me and is always in the back of my mind is that my wife heads down the path described in the book each and every time I've stumbled as a husband. I told her last weekend that I feel like I'm one of those plate-spinning guys, and she's the audience, and she's reserved the right to walk out forever anytime I let even one plate wobble. She of course has no problem adding more plates whenever I start to get to a point of thinking I've got things under control. I think I'm going to change things up.


This is exactly what I'm talking about in my earlier posts:

Him: I've done everything the way you want and am getting nothing back.

Her: But that's the way it's supposed to be if I desire it.


----------



## DTO

TheGoodFight said:


> So even having this information at hand does not change how she feels about that? Wouldn't she only be doomed if she was naive about infatuation, which she now is clearly not?


Not really.

Having the information is only one part of this. The other part is putting the information work. It sounds like on the one hand she does not want to be alone (understandably) but on the other hand she is daunted by the hard work it takes to maintain a marriage or other serious long-term relationship.


----------



## BigLiam

DTO, good stuff/ Have any of the guys here visited the shrink4men site? Lots of good advice on dealing with the abusive, entitled princess deal and the genesis of it.


----------



## LeslieH

As a WW, I will have to agree that I don't think I fully understood how much work or any work that a real relationship would require. But that's about where my similarities end. 

I don't believe in fairy tales. Marriage is not something I think is a necessity to a good relationship. Our engagement story was a negotiation. Neither of us want kids. I don't look to him to provide for me. For me, I'm starting to realize that my draw to AP was for much baser reasons. Yes, all affairs play into some fantasy that people have, but people's fantasies are different. 

Taking this book without a grain of salt is like saying that all men who cheat do it because they are simply horndogs spreading their seed.


----------



## theinnocentone

I read the website not the book (it was eerily correct in my current situation)... and was going to buy it but thought.. will it give me ANSWERS as to what I should do about these feelings. I am having an A.. I have no sexual desire for my husband..at one point i thought there must be something wrong with me. I prayed cried and begged god to give it to me for my husband. but nothing. My husband is a good man but emotionally he is absent (unless he is angry or depressed which his often) we have been together for 8 years one child. and the OM tells me he loves me. I felt I was in-love with him until tonight reading that damn website. INFATUATION.. wow. OM and I are so much a like.. we talk about everything under the sun. we just mesh. H and I really don't have much in common. I know when I married him I was at a stage where I felt I wanted to settle down and did just that settled. I wanted to leave my H even before I had the A. But the guilt of knowing I would DESTROY him has kept me with him. I have explained to him that Im not in love.. no sexual desire.. I mean I tried to leave but..he was so miserable crying begging that all I could do was think how I would feel if I were him and it KILLS ME INSIDE! So I stay. I HATE feeling this way. I HATE that I am cheating. I want to stop but I relate to the addiction part.. the High I get. The feeling alive part, and the sexual desire I have for OM i don't have for H. It so Cruel and unfair. Why cant I have that for my husband dammit!! I swear sometimes I pray that I go to sleep and wake up wanting my H the way I want the OM. I'm 38 an this is my second marriage. My 1st marriage I was In love and was abused mentally and physically. 1st H was controlling and did not respect me and I eventually left. It devastated me. I feel I married this one because I knew I wasn't in love and could never be hurt like that again. This book is depressing because he seems there is no hope. I truly feel that with the OM I would not desire another. But would he? I can't bare the heartbreak... This LOVE MARRIAGE crap SUCKS!!!!!!!! Sometimes I feel that maybe I should just be single. What am I to do..I am Unhappy in my marriage... should I just stay to make H happy? Should I leave an be by myself... should I continue with OM after leaving... I need mental help I think.. Whoever said this was like a mental illness I think was partly right.


----------



## DTO

theinnocentone said:


> I read the website not the book (it was eerily correct in my current situation)... and was going to buy it but thought.. will it give me ANSWERS as to what I should do about these feelings. I am having an A.. I have no sexual desire for my husband..at one point i thought there must be something wrong with me. I prayed cried and begged god to give it to me for my husband. but nothing. My husband is a good man but emotionally he is absent (unless he is angry or depressed which his often) we have been together for 8 years one child. and the OM tells me he loves me. I felt I was in-love with him until tonight reading that damn website. INFATUATION.. wow. OM and I are so much a like.. we talk about everything under the sun. we just mesh. H and I really don't have much in common. I know when I married him I was at a stage where I felt I wanted to settle down and did just that settled. I wanted to leave my H even before I had the A. But the guilt of knowing I would DESTROY him has kept me with him. I have explained to him that Im not in love.. no sexual desire.. I mean I tried to leave but..he was so miserable crying begging that all I could do was think how I would feel if I were him and it KILLS ME INSIDE! So I stay. I HATE feeling this way. I HATE that I am cheating. I want to stop but I relate to the addiction part.. the High I get. The feeling alive part, and the sexual desire I have for OM i don't have for H. It so Cruel and unfair. Why cant I have that for my husband dammit!! I swear sometimes I pray that I go to sleep and wake up wanting my H the way I want the OM. I'm 38 an this is my second marriage. My 1st marriage I was In love and was abused mentally and physically. 1st H was controlling and did not respect me and I eventually left. It devastated me. I feel I married this one because I knew I wasn't in love and could never be hurt like that again. This book is depressing because he seems there is no hope. I truly feel that with the OM I would not desire another. But would he? I can't bare the heartbreak... This LOVE MARRIAGE crap SUCKS!!!!!!!! Sometimes I feel that maybe I should just be single. What am I to do..I am Unhappy in my marriage... should I just stay to make H happy? Should I leave an be by myself... should I continue with OM after leaving... I need mental help I think.. Whoever said this was like a mental illness I think was partly right.


You should tell him how you really feel about him and allow him to make an informed choice about his future. That includes not just the infidelity, but that you never really loved him and this marriage was about meeting your needs (there must have been a reason, like not being alone or sharing expenses) while intentionally limiting your intimacy and vulnerability (which is the end result of choosing a spouse this way.

It will be painful for him, but he can choose to leave with a clean conscience and absolve him of feeling like he failed you. If you don't, it will hurt worse when he knocks himself out to continue to win you back (which he cannot do because he never really had you) and it does not work. Right now, you are not even respecting his right to find someone who does want him, and that makes it worse.

This I speak from experience. My ex dropped the bomb a few years back that I was a convenience she chose for a variety of reasons and she lied to get me to accept her marriage proposal. But, she never admitted it until I had figured it out myself - makes it even worse.


----------



## Labcoat

TDSC60 said:


> I forgot to include that during this time my wife became convinced that I was having affairs. I traveled a lot as I have said. She was convinced that I had a girl waiting for me in every city I went to. It got so bad I almost dreaded coming home because I knew I was going to face a couple of days of accusations and ill temper.


I love this phenomenon... It seems like a lot of betrayed men I've run across were, at one time, accused of having their own affair. I was.

It makes me think about some thought process that waywards may accept antecedant to their betrayal. Infidelity is already in their playbooks and, they assume it's in yours. Likewise, I assumed she was playing fair because I was playing fair; as if because I had solid boundries, I would magically only attract women with solid boundaries in the first place.

Well sweetheart, it wasn't... until you introduced it.


----------



## Acabado

theinnocentone said:


> I read the website not the book (it was eerily correct in my current situation)... and was going to buy it but thought.. will it give me ANSWERS as to what I should do about these feelings. I am having an A.. I have no sexual desire for my husband..at one point i thought there must be something wrong with me. I prayed cried and begged god to give it to me for my husband. but nothing. My husband is a good man but emotionally he is absent (unless he is angry or depressed which his often) we have been together for 8 years one child. and the OM tells me he loves me. I felt I was in-love with him until tonight reading that damn website. INFATUATION.. wow. OM and I are so much a like.. we talk about everything under the sun. we just mesh. H and I really don't have much in common. I know when I married him I was at a stage where I felt I wanted to settle down and did just that settled. I wanted to leave my H even before I had the A. But the guilt of knowing I would DESTROY him has kept me with him. I have explained to him that Im not in love.. no sexual desire.. I mean I tried to leave but..he was so miserable crying begging that all I could do was think how I would feel if I were him and it KILLS ME INSIDE! So I stay. I HATE feeling this way. I HATE that I am cheating. I want to stop but I relate to the addiction part.. the High I get. The feeling alive part, and the sexual desire I have for OM i don't have for H. It so Cruel and unfair. Why cant I have that for my husband dammit!! I swear sometimes I pray that I go to sleep and wake up wanting my H the way I want the OM. I'm 38 an this is my second marriage. My 1st marriage I was In love and was abused mentally and physically. 1st H was controlling and did not respect me and I eventually left. It devastated me. I feel I married this one because I knew I wasn't in love and could never be hurt like that again. This book is depressing because he seems there is no hope. I truly feel that with the OM I would not desire another. But would he? I can't bare the heartbreak... This LOVE MARRIAGE crap SUCKS!!!!!!!! Sometimes I feel that maybe I should just be single. What am I to do..I am Unhappy in my marriage... should I just stay to make H happy? Should I leave an be by myself... should I continue with OM after leaving... I need mental help I think.. Whoever said this was like a mental illness I think was partly right.


Sorry to be blunt but you used your husband, married him under falses premises, it was a complete fraud. Let him go. Stop cake eating.

I hightly suspect the same driven forces you had inside to pick an abusive first husband are back full force. The problem is not in your husband but within you. Maybe you need chaos in your life otherwise you feel dead. I fear you won't ever be happy unless you learn to enjoy a real, intimate relationship, what real love looks like.

Did you had a dysfuncional childhood, abused somehow (emotional, physical, sexually)?

Cut contact with OM yesterday, block him.
Adress your issues. Get healthy.

Best wishes.

PD read the books (The two of them)


----------



## Sara8

TDSC60 said:


> After being diagnosed as being depressed and put on medication she got better eventually.
> 
> So website was very disturbing to me. I didn't order the book.
> 
> Edit: I forgot to include that during this time my wife became convinced that I was having affairs. I traveled a lot as I have said. She was convinced that I had a girl waiting for me in every city I went to. It got so bad I almost dreaded coming home because I knew I was going to face a couple of days of accusations and ill temper.


My Cheating spouse, during his affair, was also always accusing me of having affairs. I never did have one, and at the time I was not sure what to make of the constant accusations

I now know that unfounded accusations is right out of the cheater's handbook. It may be a way to justify their cheating, it may be a projection, or it may ease there own guilt to think they are only cheating 'cause you are. 

Also the OW in my STBEH's affair had a husband who travelled a lot. 

She was the type of person that never worked, had unrealistic expectations of a marriage and could not find ways to keep herself occupied.


----------



## Romeo_Holden

theinnocentone said:


> I read the website not the book (it was eerily correct in my current situation)... and was going to buy it but thought.. will it give me ANSWERS as to what I should do about these feelings. I am having an A.. I have no sexual desire for my husband..at one point i thought there must be something wrong with me. I prayed cried and begged god to give it to me for my husband. but nothing. My husband is a good man but emotionally he is absent (unless he is angry or depressed which his often) we have been together for 8 years one child. and the OM tells me he loves me. I felt I was in-love with him until tonight reading that damn website. INFATUATION.. wow. OM and I are so much a like.. we talk about everything under the sun. we just mesh. H and I really don't have much in common. I know when I married him I was at a stage where I felt I wanted to settle down and did just that settled. I wanted to leave my H even before I had the A. But the guilt of knowing I would DESTROY him has kept me with him. I have explained to him that Im not in love.. no sexual desire.. I mean I tried to leave but..he was so miserable crying begging that all I could do was think how I would feel if I were him and it KILLS ME INSIDE! So I stay. I HATE feeling this way. I HATE that I am cheating. I want to stop but I relate to the addiction part.. the High I get. The feeling alive part, and the sexual desire I have for OM i don't have for H. It so Cruel and unfair. Why cant I have that for my husband dammit!! I swear sometimes I pray that I go to sleep and wake up wanting my H the way I want the OM. I'm 38 an this is my second marriage. My 1st marriage I was In love and was abused mentally and physically. 1st H was controlling and did not respect me and I eventually left. It devastated me. I feel I married this one because I knew I wasn't in love and could never be hurt like that again. This book is depressing because he seems there is no hope. I truly feel that with the OM I would not desire another. But would he? I can't bare the heartbreak... This LOVE MARRIAGE crap SUCKS!!!!!!!! Sometimes I feel that maybe I should just be single. What am I to do..I am Unhappy in my marriage... should I just stay to make H happy? Should I leave an be by myself... should I continue with OM after leaving... I need mental help I think.. Whoever said this was like a mental illness I think was partly right.



I am just going to break it down.

1) You remain in the marriage because it's something comfortable and secure, sure he may not be perfect but he is convenient

2) Everything else you wrote is just a lengthy and wordy rationalization. 

3) You don't love the other man at all and he probably doesn't love you either (smart men don't fall in love with unfaithful wives)...you are just in love with how he makes you feel.

4) there is a cure for your problem it's called reality, when the reality of your marriage ending as a result of your deceit hits you, you will "fall in love" with your husband again....or you leave him and go with the new guy until the honey moon ends and then you will "realize you loved your husband all along"

Your story is far from unique and the ending is usually the same too.


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