# Pursuit?



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Have a question for you ladies out there.

So I met this girl, and I'm not really looking for a relationship now, just meeting people and having some fun (like real fun not sex fun). Anyway I invited her out and she confirmed she'd meet me. I was with a group so it didn't affect my plans if she didn't show. An hour after she was supposed to arrive, I called her out for standing me up, and she said, "You're too brazen to stand up." And she met me for like 5 minutes before she went to the city with her friends.

She said, "You're pretty ballsy." I got the feeling that she stands up guys on purpose to see if they'll call her on it, or keep pursuing her anyway, or something.

Anyway, I am curious about this, it seems a little too "gamey" for me. Honestly I think I could understand it if she does it once or twice until we get to know eachother, just to weed out the rejects. After that, I would be severely put off by someone who makes it difficult to hang out with, relationship or not.

So I have two questions:

1. Is this normal behavior for women? Standing people up on purpose to see how they react?

2. What's the likelihood she would keep up that behavior?

3. Should I call her out on it when we're out? I'm thinking of saying something like, "I'm not really looking for a relationship, you just seem like a cool girl to hang out with and have a fun time. You don't have to play hard to get, if you want to hang out, let me know. If not, no big deal."


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

No, that is not what I consider normal behavior for a woman.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

That's just BS, sheesh what a waste of time


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

COguy said:


> Have a question for you ladies out there.
> 
> So I met this girl, and I'm not really looking for a relationship now, just meeting people and having some fun (like real fun not sex fun). Anyway I invited her out and she confirmed she'd meet me. I was with a group so it didn't affect my plans if she didn't show. An hour after she was supposed to arrive, I called her out for standing me up, and she said, "You're too brazen to stand up." And she met me for like 5 minutes before she went to the city with her friends.
> 
> ...


Here are the answers.

1] No that is not normal behaviour of respectable women.

2]The likelihood of her keep up that kind of behaviour is very high. Judge a person by their actions.
Her actions says that she is dishonest. She kept you waiting for over an hour and did not even call you.
She does not value your time nor company.

3] Forget her and move on. If she is interested she will call you.


She is not doing this to " weed you out." stop thinking like that,you should _weed her out._
She thinks your'e weak.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

It's called "flaking".

Big red flag.

Call her out on it immediately the first time. 

Dump her if she does it twice.


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## His_Pixie (Jan 29, 2012)

She's not interested.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It's not normal and yes similar behavior will follow. She has no respect for other people.


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Not normal. Game playing. Do not pursue. Do not call or call back. You dont need anymore troubles. Plenty of fish in the sea and you need to get your sea legs back if you know what i mean. Just chill with the guys for a while.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I would consider that disrespectful. 

It's one thing to display a little feistiness/intrigue ...it's another to be rude. 

She thinks it's ballsy that you called her when she stood you up? I think it's rude she stood you up. Good for you for calling her. So she purposely stood you up? Not cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Put yourself in her shoes and look at it from her point of view. A guy asks you out. You say yes and then go off out with your friends. What type of person does that make you?

Deceitful. Unreliable. Dishonest. Two faced. Duplicit. Unfaithful. Disloyal.

Not good material for any form of relationship.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

hmm interesting take. I don't necessarily agree but it did make me wonder if the "ballsy" comment could relate to her feeling you weren't making an effort to be out with her on a date, being a casual meet up with friends, that she didn't take too seriously and perhaps felt it was cheeky that you should call to see where she was when it wasn't a proper date in the first place. 

On the other hand, she did say she'd be there and didn't show or call. 

It sounds to me like there's some insecurity...hard to tell which side it's coming from though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Yes. From the way COguy talks about how he asked her out and the type of “date” he does sound indifferent as to whether she said yes or no and maybe she picked that up and treated it the same way, with indifference.


CO why on earth are you asking women out to a general social get together? Surely it’s best one on one for quite a while to get to know each other before socialising that way? Even as an outgoing guy I’d feel uncomfortable “dating” for the first time within a group of complete strangers.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Yes. From the way COguy talks about how he asked her out and the type of “date” he does sound indifferent as to whether she said yes or no and maybe she picked that up and treated it the same way, with indifference.
> 
> 
> CO why on earth are you asking women out to a general social get together? Surely it’s best one on one for quite a while to get to know each other before socialising that way? Even as an outgoing guy I’d feel uncomfortable “dating” for the first time within a group of complete strangers.


Cause it wasn't really a date. More like, I'm doing this, you should come with me. Before she left after meeting me she seemed interested in me. We made plans for tomorrow night. I'm going no matter what so if she wants to stand me up again I'll just delete her from my phone.

At this point I feel like saying "here's the info, show up if you want."


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> Have a question for you ladies out there.
> 
> So I met this girl, and I'm not really looking for a relationship now, just meeting people and having some fun (like real fun not sex fun). Anyway I invited her out and she confirmed she'd meet me. I was with a group so it didn't affect my plans if she didn't show. An hour after she was supposed to arrive, I called her out for standing me up, and she said, "You're too brazen to stand up." And she met me for like 5 minutes before she went to the city with her friends.
> 
> ...


Flaking is both normal and common for women. You should take it in your stride. Its common for variety of reasons. Sometimes things come up, sometimes there is genuine disinterest, sometimes its a game. I believe women do this to see how men react (i.e. not really a game) more often than they realize themselves. In these cases I don't believe they are usually aware why they are doing this when they "just don't feel like showing up". This is a sh1t-test, it can be instinctive and subconscious, no matter what conscious rationalization the woman might have invented for you (or herself). Furthermore, this situation is good news and you should treat this disrespectful behavior as such. It means she is selective and still open to being seduced by you. She wants to know you are strong enough to reject her and pro-social enough to do so without hurting her. By doing so, you pass her test, and you stand a good chance of her coming back to you. It's happened to me only in the last couple of weeks. I had a girl stand me up TWICE, now she is chasing me.

If this is a sh1t-test, she is quite likely to keep it up as long as she feels you may be weak and she is somewhat interested in you. She will also act this way if she's not interested, (not a sh1t-test) but in that case, you'll know soon enough.

You call her out on this when she asks about why you're going NC with her, which you should do when she tries this. Then tell her what you expect from your relationships, matter of fact. She either plays by your rules or she is not honored with your time. Period. Obviously dont' say it quite that bluntly lol. Otherwise, ignore everything that doesn't advance seduction, or tease/joke around it/reframe it. Show that it doesn't phase you in the slightest.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You displayed very low value. You showed it getting to you. High value men are in demand. They don't waste time with flakes. You keep calling like a lost puppy and she'll rule your life. Lose her number. If she calls you, demand respect.


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## srtjm (Jul 11, 2012)

Simple Answer! Move On!


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You displayed very low value. You showed it getting to you. High value men are in demand. They don't waste time with flakes. You keep calling like a lost puppy and she'll rule your life. Lose her number. If she calls you, demand respect.


Could not agree more. 

I am a High Value Man and I don't waste time with flakes. It's that simple. There are way too many women out there who want to date me that I would even consider wasting time with those that play games, are flakes, etc. That said, I don't play games and make that clear the first time I ask someone out. 

For future first-dates, I would also suggest a one-on-one, more intimate location. A coffee shop is a great choice. If she isn't there in 15 minutes and hasn't called, delete her number from your phone and move on. 

I know the PUA guys have a whole host of tactics but if you're a High Value Man who has no problem getting a date, why waste time with someone who is so disrespectful from the start?


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

DDC said:


> I know the PUA guys have a whole host of tactics but if you're a High Value Man who has no problem getting a date, why waste time with someone who is so disrespectful from the start?


The reason is that the most attractive, confident and desirable women will (in various ways) disrespect a man the most. If she is not doing so, that makes her less feminine, less confident and self-assured, less selective, more needy, crucially less of a challenge and less attractive to me. If you are not getting disrespected, as a man that means you could be dating (and are passing up) higher quality women.

Flaking is just one way. b1tch-shield is the biggest other obvious way that's common - e.g. HB10 ignoring even a friendly smile and hello on first contact. Once you get past the disrespect, and realize it's often just learned behavior for them i.e. "what works" - rather than evidence of a deeper character trait, you'll often find these women can be as soft and caring, and genuinely respectful as any other for those in their confidence.

Then again, it's a perfectly reasonable that you don't wish to associate with women who routinely treat people that way on first contact. YMMV.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

DDC said:


> Could not agree more.
> 
> I am a High Value Man and I don't waste time with flakes. It's that simple. There are way too many women out there who want to date me that I would even consider wasting time with those that play games, are flakes, etc. That said, I don't play games and make that clear the first time I ask someone out.
> 
> ...


I agree about future first-dates, although I'd prefer to give someone the benefit of the doubt. But I'd also imagine a 'high value woman' would perhaps expect to be shown the appropriate amount of interest rather than a casual group meet-up approach.

Nothing wrong with (for example) "I'm going to that gig - you're going too? Cool, I'll see ya there" which isn't a date and wouldn't necessarily warrant a phone call if one showed up and the other didn't. It depends on how casual the communication was. 

The reason I mentioned insecurity was....if one side is being somewhat arrogant, thinking a phone-call wasn't needed/being flaky, well, I think that actually relates to a level of insecurity. 

In saying that, she may well be picking up on your vibe of "If you're there, so be it but ...whatever..." I think most of us like to feel included and interest known. Maybe she wonders what you're playing at? And/or you might be better off just moving on. *head explodes*


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

GetTough said:


> The reason is that the most attractive, confident and desirable women will (in various ways) disrespect a man the most. If she is not doing so, that makes her less feminine, less confident and self-assured, less selective, more needy, crucially less of a challenge and less attractive to me. If you are not getting disrespected, as a man that means you could be dating (and are passing up) higher quality women.


GetTough, I respect your experience, but mine has been very different. I've had no difficulty dating extremely attractive, high-quality women who are straight-forward, confident, and desirable. I have not found them to be less feminine or less selective.

I'm not getting disrespected because I simply don't tolerate it. I let the woman know from the onset that I don't play games and that if she does, I'm gone - I don't have the time, energy, or desire and in my experience, it's simply not worth it. I'm laid back and easy going but I say this very seriously and make sure my message is well-communicated.

I have found, however, that the ones that disrespect men the most are generally low self-esteem women who place their value as a human being in how they physically look. Putting them in their place and teaching them how to properly behave with you will likely get you laid but I'd rather not deal with all that drama.

Perhaps you simply appreciate the chase more than me.  YMMV. 



GetTough said:


> Flaking is just one way. b1tch-shield is the biggest other obvious way that's common - e.g. HB10 ignoring even a friendly smile and hello on first contact. Once you get past the disrespect, and realize it's often just learned behavior for them i.e. "what works" - rather than evidence of a deeper character trait, you'll often find these women can be as soft and caring, and genuinely respectful as any other for those in their confidence.


I dated these types of women when I was in my early and mid-20s and will say that I partly agree with you. In some cases the disrespect was "learned behavior" but in other cases it was evidence of low-self esteem and low self-respect.

I remember one date that said she had the "most fun she'd ever had" and then flaked on the next date. When I called her on it, she pretended like we hadn't "cemented" the date and I told her we both knew that was bull**** and that something better had come along (she'd gone skiing) and she didn't have integrity to call me. She then apologized and said she really did want to date me.

I told her if she wanted to make it up to me, she would drive to my house at a time convenient to me, pick me up, take me out to dinner and drinks, then take me to see a movie and pay for everything. She did so. Cute story to tell (there are more) but dealing with this simply got old REAL fast.

Now I avoid dating women in the early and mid-20s. I don't have time to teach them how to behave and I find women in their late 20s, 30s, and 40s more attractive intellectually, emotionally, and sexually. 



GetTough said:


> Then again, it's a perfectly reasonable that you don't wish to associate with women who routinely treat people that way on first contact. YMMV.


Exactly. That's where I'm at now. Too busy to teach manner challenged women how to properly behave. But the next time I meet one, I'll send her your way.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

what does YMMV stand for?

I googled..... your mileage may vary?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> So I have two questions:
> 
> 1. Is this normal behavior for women? Standing people up on purpose to see how they react?
> 
> ...


1. Her behaviour was rude and disrespectful, which is perhaps 'normal' to her.

2. If she's a rude and disrespectful person, the behaviour will likely continue.

3. Why call her out on it? Do you really want to associate with rude, disrespectful people? Move on!

OP, we teach people how to treat us. Stop showing this girl that you will accept more bad behaviour from her.


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> what does YMMV stand for?
> 
> I googled..... _your mileage may vary_?


_Yes. _ It basically means that your results may be different.


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## alton (Jul 18, 2012)

If you want to be happy you need to go and find a simple girl.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Why the heck would a guy pursue a woman that has stood him up without a valid reason? Hell no... You start a relationship with that dynamic and things will only get worse.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> Cause it wasn't really a date. More like, I'm doing this, you should come with me. Before she left after meeting me she seemed interested in me. We made plans for tomorrow night. I'm going no matter what so if she wants to stand me up again I'll just delete her from my phone.
> 
> At this point I feel like saying "here's the info, show up if you want."


The really good thing here is you’ve an immense amount to learn. For example you think you are showing that you don’t really care as to whether she “dates” you or not. You think you are demonstrating indifference. And you think you are doing that by what you “think” you have in your mind, the “I don’t really care if she shows up or not”.

But your actions, body language and behaviour over time speaks volumes about your real needs, wants and desires, about your “real intent”.

Women will of course listen to your words. But the vast majority of them listen to your behaviour over time and body language, this just comes naturally to them. They take real note of your behaviour, your body language along with where your feet are pointing, your demeanour, your facial expressions, where your eyes are looking and the emotional content within the messages you are sending her. Because within all that lot is where your truth is, where she will discover and uncover your true intent.

It’s exceedingly obvious that you are a million miles away from any knowledge in these things. Which is good because you are at the very beginning of a journey of discovery. To become truly aware (although it’s a life long learning process) read Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books. For knowledge and wisdom about body language read books by Pease International - Body Language | Relationship Advice.



With your “date”, at the very least 80% of what you communicated was not in the words, sentences and phrases you used.

So far without using a single word you have told her you fancy her, you want to go out with her, you want sex with her, you’re not too bothered about it and you’re prepared to be treated like shet and come back for more and you are somewhat dishonest even wrt your own feelings.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

GetTough said:


> The reason is that the most attractive, confident and desirable women will (in various ways) disrespect a man the most. If she is not doing so, that makes her less feminine, less confident and self-assured, less selective, more needy, crucially less of a challenge and less attractive to me. If you are not getting disrespected, as a man that means you could be dating (and are passing up) higher quality women.


The most *false* and *worst* observation from a man's point of view about attractive women towards other men.
Speaks volumes about the fact that you don't know much about attractive women.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

GetTough said:


> The reason is that the most attractive, confident and desirable women will (in various ways) disrespect a man the most. If she is not doing so, that makes her less feminine, less confident and self-assured, less selective, more needy, crucially less of a challenge and less attractive to me. If you are not getting disrespected, as a man that means you could be dating (and are passing up) higher quality women.


:lol:

That is one of the most ridiculous things i've seen on this board. So, in other to be with a very attracted woman you have to be willing to be disrespected? Are you serious?

A woman that doesn't disrespect is less feminine? Less desirable?

You have a strange taste in women. I find the all "full of themselves" women to be extremely undesirable. In fact, i can't stand it. And physical beauty doesn't make up for it. 

Plus, self confidence and self assurance only comes up as positive women traits in girls magazines. I've never hear a guy say in secret to other guys that he felt immediately attracted to a woman because she was confidant and looked assured of herself. The only time i see those expressions come out from a man's mouth is when his woman is present and he is using it to replace the expressions "nice [insert body part here] and [insert nother body part here]".

Drop by a man's forum and look at how men talk about their women. There is no mention of those traits as something desirable at all. It's much more often to hear something about she being "understanding", "loving", "supportive". 

And that begs the question, are you getting those advices from personal experiences or a female source?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> The really good thing here is you’ve an immense amount to learn. For example you think you are showing that you don’t really care as to whether she “dates” you or not. You think you are demonstrating indifference. And you think you are doing that by what you “think” you have in your mind, the “I don’t really care if she shows up or not”.
> 
> But your actions, body language and behaviour over time speaks volumes about your real needs, wants and desires, about your “real intent”.
> 
> ...


I both agree and disagree with what you're saying. I see where you're coming from, but not knowing what was said or how I responded in person, I think you could come to a warped conclusion about my mojo.

Anyway, not sure who said it here but I've got too much fun to have and too many people to meet to put up with the "game". So I'll continue this as a social experiment. My next move is to ignore her. I invited her out tonight on friday night, she knows I would enjoy her company (dancing). I'm going to go and have a good time regardless. If she wants to come, great, I'll see what she's like. If not, delete from phone, no worries.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> I both agree and disagree with what you're saying. I see where you're coming from, but not knowing what was said or how I responded in person, I think you could come to a warped conclusion about my mojo.
> 
> Anyway, not sure who said it here but I've got too much fun to have and too many people to meet to put up with the "game". So I'll continue this as a social experiment. My next move is to ignore her. I invited her out tonight on friday night, she knows I would enjoy her company (dancing). I'm going to go and have a good time regardless. If she wants to come, great, I'll see what she's like. If not, delete from phone, no worries.


Surely that's the Really Nice Guy approach? Sounds like you got it real bad.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Surely that's the Really Nice Guy approach? Sounds like you got it real bad.


Puh-lease. I'm not a PUA. I'm not looking for casual sex or a relationship. This chick isn't going to complete me.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> Puh-lease. I'm not a PUA. I'm not looking for casual sex or a relationship. This chick isn't going to complete me.


Two questions then 1) Why on earth are you asking a woman out? and 2) Why on earth are you asking that particular woman out?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I find it interesting that you have never seen this.

Deciding that a very attractive woman is disrespectful and full of herself because she tells you to "get lost", or ignores you when you smile and say hello; is learned behavior on her part.

She gets hit on ALL THE TIME. If she was 'nice' to every shmoe that screwed up the courage to wink or say hello, they are going to presume she is interested ... and keep pursuing.

So ... she gives the brush-off, and THAT is usually all that is required to send a male that does not have high value, scuttling away with a bruised ego, or the self-protection mechanism that he will use by believing, "What a b!tch."

She isn't a b!tch. She is simply demonstrating her own 'high value'.


COguy, I say go for the date. If it becomes apparent she wants you to jump through hoops ... cut the date short.



costa200 said:


> :lol:
> 
> That is one of the most ridiculous things i've seen on this board. So, in other to be with a very attracted woman you have to be willing to be disrespected? Are you serious?
> 
> ...


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> Deciding that a very attractive woman is disrespectful and full of herself because she tells you to "get lost", or ignores you when you smile and say hello; is learned behavior on her part.


Well, if you are just going in hot like that without no gameplan and expecting her to bend over backwards for you then yes, you can expect the cold shoulder. That's not disrespect, that's just telling you and everyone else that she ain't an easy lay. 

And doing this doesn't maker her more or less valuable. It's an outwards show for the benefit of other women around her.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Two questions then 1) Why on earth are you asking a woman out? and 2) Why on earth are you asking that particular woman out?


1. To share an adventure with someone else. Experiencing something with someone else is always more fun. I'm at the place where I'm not looking for a relationship but just having fun with other people, men or women.

2. I didn't KNOW she was going to stand me up when I asked her out. We had a fun few minute conversation when we met. She said she was bored with our city, I told her I was doing something I've never done before that night and she should come with me, she said ok.

After she stopped by that night she sounded interested in trying to meet up again, so I offered tonight.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I find it interesting that you have never seen this.
> 
> Deciding that a very attractive woman is disrespectful and full of herself because she tells you to "get lost", or ignores you when you smile and say hello; is learned behavior on her part.
> 
> ...


I've been married for 8 years, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever asked a woman out like this before. I've always just met with women I already knew or was the one being pursued, but I have a pretty limited experience with that anyway.

Last time I went out with a girl one on one that wasn't my wife was about 10 years ago, so wasn't sure if this was something new, something that was normal, or if I should run for the hills. I was leaning towards the hills but I wanted to give her a chance to show she's not a butt clown.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> 1. To share an adventure with someone else. Experiencing something with someone else is always more fun. I'm at the place where I'm not looking for a relationship but just having fun with other people, men or women.
> 
> 2. I didn't KNOW she was going to stand me up when I asked her out. We had a fun few minute conversation when we met. She said she was bored with our city, I told her I was doing something I've never done before that night and she should come with me, she said ok.
> 
> After she stopped by that night she sounded interested in trying to meet up again, so I offered tonight.


Geesh. All that from a guy who says he’s NOT looking for a relationship. I knew you were kidding yourself.

Did you know you were kidding yourself? Did you know you were being two faced and deceitful? Did you know you were deluding yourself? I don’t mean that in a nasty way. I don’t even really need to know, but I do wonder if you know.


And what about the second question? Why that particular woman out of all the women you see?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Deciding that a very attractive woman is disrespectful and full of herself because she tells you to "get lost", or ignores you when you smile and say hello; is learned behavior on her part.


Where on earth did you get that from Deejo buddy? For me it just makes her an ass, a person to be walked around, avoided, forgotten and left in the past where she belongs.

I know for a fact you are worth far more than that. But then again maybe you enjoy being beaten up.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

COguy said:


> 1. To share an adventure with someone else. Experiencing something with someone else is always more fun. I'm at the place where I'm not looking for a relationship but just having fun with other people, men or women.
> 
> 2. I didn't KNOW she was going to stand me up when I asked her out. We had a fun few minute conversation when we met. She said she was bored with our city, I told her I was doing something I've never done before that night and she should come with me, she said ok.
> 
> After she stopped by that night she sounded interested in trying to meet up again, so I offered tonight.


And you start a thread called "pursuit?". You're the most invested guy that is trying to not get invested that i've heard about in a long time


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

COguy said:


> 1. Is this normal behavior for women? Standing people up on purpose to see how they react?


No. Not normal. It is a jack a$$ thing to do to someone.



COguy said:


> 2. What's the likelihood she would keep up that behavior?


No clue since none of us know he personally. 



COguy said:


> 3. Should I call her out on it when we're out?


I wouldn't even entertain a second date with her. The first time she stood you up and then madet he comments she did would have been the end game for me. 

Seriously. It was totally rude and if she does have a habit of standing people up, she's not someone you want to be with in the first place. 

Mark her off the list and move on.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> She isn't a b!tch. She is simply demonstrating her own 'high value'.


I totally disagree. What she is demonstrating is her character. Attractive or not, standing someone up is a sh*tty thing to do to someone. 

Game playing is for children. Leave this one alone. Throw this one back in the sea. Keep fishing for someone who doesn't treat you like an option.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

JB I'm with you. Ignoring or being standoffish to get guys to leave you alone is one thing but standing someone up ON PURPOSE is just rude.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

DDC said:


> Could not agree more.
> 
> I am a High Value Man and I don't waste time with flakes. It's that simple. There are way too many women out there who want to date me that I would even consider wasting time with those that play games, are flakes, etc. That said, I don't play games and make that clear the first time I ask someone out.


:iagree:



Cosmos said:


> 1. Her behaviour was rude and disrespectful, which is perhaps 'normal' to her.
> 
> 2. If she's a rude and disrespectful person, the behaviour will likely continue.
> 
> ...


Bingo!



costa200 said:


> Why the heck would a guy pursue a woman that has stood him up without a valid reason? Hell no... You start a relationship with that dynamic and things will only get worse.



Thank you. ITA.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

she is playing hard to get, oldest trick in the book


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AFEH said:


> Where on earth did you get that from Deejo buddy? For me it just makes her an ass, a person to be walked around, avoided, forgotten and left in the past where she belongs.
> 
> I know for a fact you are worth far more than that. But then again maybe you enjoy being beaten up.


LOL, I reread this Bob, and I get how it may come across. I've seen it in action ... and no, I don't enjoy getting beat up ... well, it depends upon who's giving the beating I suppose. As I have stated many times, I enjoy and embrace THE GAME.

For the record, I do not think that standing someone up on a date is demonstrating 'high value' ... that's just downright disrespectful (that's for jb)

I also do not pursue. I don't chase. Ever.
I use approach, attempt to build rapport and security. You generally know within a few minutes of interacting with someone if those things are being built, or if there is a concrete wall between you.

I don't take it personally. I don't think she's a self-absorbed witch (she may be). Bottom line, I don't attach or invest MY self-esteem to how a woman does or does not respond.

Which in itself conveys inherent confidence and comfort.

So ... for COguy, I would say if you are genuinely interested in this woman, then ask her on a date. Tell her the place you intend to go, and the day and time you intend to go. And then simply let her choose. If she says 'let me think about it' or 'I have to check my schedule' ... cut her loose.

If she tells you immediately that she has plans but asks for another day and time, then you are good to go.

I consistently suggest for those that don't like playing games, that you should at least learn the rules so that you have some idea of what the hell is going on.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Goodness knows if I’m ever to date again Deejo, I don’t feel like it, don’t feel the need. So all my stuff is theoretical.

With CO I really felt he was being dishonest with himself. In that he came across as wanting to date this particular woman for some reason or another and yet he was denying that to be the case. And because he doesn’t know her the attraction must be her looks, the way she looks, demeanour, dress sense, body language etc. I also wondered if he wanted a girl on his arm for the dance to show off to others, as in the way of a statement in “Look what I can pull!”.

I wonder if some who are divorced actually take stock of their situation. More or less write a book on their life from their earliest memories, through when they first saw their wife, what the attraction was, birth of children if any and other key milestones in their marriage, what brought it down etc.

And in that way kind of catch up with who they are today, right now. I really think those who don’t do that, those who don’t write their autobiography, when they start dating again do it in the same way they did as teenagers before they got married and repeat all the same mistakes over again!


Kind of like “Know thyself before thee go out hunting again. Know what you are looking for and focus on that”. Bit like selling in a way, know what it is you’re selling, produce your ideal customer profile and go out hunting to find them. Crazy thing with these things is they may well be in a diy store, on a field archaeological trip, in a sailing competition, half way up a mountain, putting out on a golf course etc.

If we do see someone we like the look of, we can start the conversation off by trying to find common interests, most especially common passions, values and beliefs. Then we have something “concrete” to talk about and share. Just asking a woman out for a date would take me right back to my somewhat nervous teens and I’d feel like I’d learnt very little over the years.

I think what I’m trying to say is to make ourselves interesting by discovering their interests and seeing if we share things in common. To do this more or less with every woman we meet anywhere totally independent of “how she looks”. That way we find out about her and she us in even perhaps the briefest of conversations. And while that’s going on we can both determine if there’s attraction there worth building on or not as the case may be.

I think I made some sort of sense to myself there lol.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I find it interesting that you have never seen this.
> 
> Deciding that a very attractive woman is disrespectful and full of herself because she tells you to "get lost", or ignores you when you smile and say hello; is learned behavior on her part.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^^^
This is a bit controversial in my humble opinion.
Whereas I agree that some women " fitness test " weak men that come grovelling to them, a woman of 
" high value " does not brush off a male of "high value". 
Such women easily sense fear in low value men because they are accustomed being hit on., and such men are accustomed being put down by women.
In fact she wants him [ a high value man ] to ask. She is hoping that he asks. She is angry if he doesn't ask. She knows a high value man has options ,just like her. Other women have already pre validated 
him, and she wants to be able to make her boast.

That is a game I used to play when I was single.
I would approach beautiful women, [I was never afraid of looks , because I always had options.] .have a " normal" conversation and NEVER ASK FOR THEIR PHONE #
During that first conversation I would be assessing her response, body language etc. If she sounded interesting,I would simply give her my phone # , as I was leaving. [ Sometimes I used to pretend I was busy,:rofl: just to play with her mind..]
This is how it worked,
After I said goodbye and turned to walk,I would say "by the way, here's my #...."
9 out of 10 time she would call ME.
Getting a date after that first call was child's play , and I have NEVER been stood up.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Goodness knows if I’m ever to date again Deejo, I don’t feel like it, don’t feel the need. So all my stuff is theoretical.
> 
> With CO I really felt he was being dishonest with himself. In that he came across as wanting to date this particular woman for some reason or another and yet he was denying that to be the case. And because he doesn’t know her the attraction must be her looks, the way she looks, demeanour, dress sense, body language etc. I also wondered if he wanted a girl on his arm for the dance to show off to others, as in the way of a statement in “Look what I can pull!”.
> 
> ...


I think you read way too much into my post.

My attraction to her was that she was a decent looking woman who made me laugh. She certainly wasn't "trophy" material, probably somewhere around a 7. And this wasn't clubbing, it's folk dancing, where you specifically dance with other people, so there's really no point in showing anyone off as you only dance with someone you bring one time.

Again, I'm not asking her out to dinner to start a relationship, I was looking to have some fun with someone, invite them on an experience.

From a self-realization perspective I think I've come a long way. I recognize what got me in my sh*tty marriage. As crazy as my STBXW is, I take responsibility for not establishing good boundaries, and not sticking up for my feelings. I'm certainly not going to run out and fall in love with the first woman who shows a hint of interest. I've been very up front with women I've met the last few weeks that I'm not interested in a relationship or casual sex, just looking to hang out and have a fun time. I'm not saying something may not happen, but it's not my primary motivation, certainly not my goal.

I've been having an awesome time going out on adventures, trying new crap, meeting new people. I don't see how it's dishonest of me to invite other people along that appear to be fun and that I have some level of initial chemistry with. Especially when part of my homework has been doing the same with dudes (in a nonsexual way obviously).


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Anyway to update, never heard anything more from her. So deleted from phone, my first experience with that kind of "game." Still had a great time dancing though.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Good for you, CO!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

CG I reckon you must be the only guy in the world who thinks a woman believes he’s not looking for a relationship with her when he asks her out on a date somewhere. Even worse, seemingly the way you ask a woman out she may well think you want a cheap one night stand or a friend with benefits.



You may think a woman you don’t already know will believe you don’t want sex with her, you don’t want a relationship, you don’t even want to be friends with her. They will for sure believe you have ulterior motives no matter how you put it. Which of course you do but deny them. I think as a let out for when they don’t show. Can you perhaps see why she didn’t show?


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

COGuy - Is it possible that you were sending mixed signals? You keep saying that you don't want a relationship, you don't want casual sex but you asked her out on two dates. 

If you were just looking for a friend, then friends don't go on dinner and dancing dates.

Alternately, if you were looking to date her, you shouldn't have asked her to meet you in a group setting.

Were you looking for a friend or a date? Because it's not really clear from your posts. You are trying really hard not to be interested but maybe you were trying so hard to be disinterested that she thought YOU were the one playing a game. 

IMO, it's rude that you made plans and she didn't respond or show up. I'm just trying to present an alternate perspective that maybe she didn't really know what you were looking for and didn't want to invest time in someone who didn't know what he wanted or didn't really seem that interested in her.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> CG I reckon you must be the only guy in the world who thinks a woman believes he’s not looking for a relationship with her when he asks her out on a date somewhere. Even worse, seemingly the way you ask a woman out she may well think you want a cheap one night stand or a friend with benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> You may think a woman you don’t already know will believe you don’t want sex with her, you don’t want a relationship, you don’t even want to be friends with her. They will for sure believe you have ulterior motives no matter how you put it. Which of course you do but deny them. I think as a let out for when they don’t show. Can you perhaps see why she didn’t show?


Yeah definitely. However in this case I never mentioned my intentions. I simply asked her out. I don't expect that a woman believes my motives, especially without knowing me. That's why I don't make a big deal about it. I do my thing, if they believe me, great, if not, my character will show as we get to know each other.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Satchel Rage said:


> WTF is approach, attempt to build rapport and security?
> 
> Are you in sales?


If we are single and looking are we not all in sales?


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

lovelygirl said:


> The most *false* and *worst* observation from a man's point of view about attractive women towards other men.
> Speaks volumes about the fact that you don't know much about attractive women.


Where's the beef? If you disagree, substantiate.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

costa200 said:


> :lol:
> 
> That is one of the most ridiculous things i've seen on this board. So, in other to be with a very attracted woman you have to be willing to be disrespected? Are you serious?
> 
> ...


No, I just know what I like. And I like a woman who knows how to flirt, which after all is often just a softer form of disrespect. Basically we're talking about IODs (indications of disinterest). I can understand guys who are tired of the game, but I enjoy it. 

Standing someone up is just a very strong IOD. Early in a relationship it says little about their real character imo. She may want nothing to do with you, alternatively she may have some slight level of interest, but just wants to see if you're either going to lose your cool or if you're going to run after her anyway like a puppy dog. Both of which help her to deselect you early. So it's a good move on her part. Women have evolved to do that because it's smart for them.

If a woman is really into you, she's likely not going to stand you up. But that's because she's already selected you. Where's the game there. You've won already.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

She's totally disrespectful and/or she's got a screw loose! Move on, Sir! There should be no discernible gamesmanship in the creation of any relationship.

Only honesty!


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

I never knew what "flaking" was, glad to have learned a new word, apparently ignoring someone's texts is called "icing". 

I think the whole dating scene is one big screwed up game. I hate games (and I'm attractive), I'm not sure why women, and men do it to play these idiotic chase, run games. I recently met someone at work, and he is definately into games, hot and cold. I'm practicing some "icing" now. lol

I think that woman was playing games with you, and you got that answer anyway. I agree with some other posters who said you need to set up a date and not do the group thing. Ask a woman out for coffee. And if you don't want to date, then don't invest in any woman, just continue to have fun on your "adventures".


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

working_together said:


> I never knew what "flaking" was, glad to have learned a new word, apparently ignoring someone's texts is called "icing".
> 
> I think the whole dating scene is one big screwed up game. I hate games (and I'm attractive), I'm not sure why women, and men do it to play these idiotic chase, run games. I recently met someone at work, and he is definately into games, hot and cold. I'm practicing some "icing" now. lol
> 
> I think that woman was playing games with you, and you got that answer anyway. I agree with some other posters who said you need to set up a date and not do the group thing. Ask a woman out for coffee. And if you don't want to date, then don't invest in any woman, just continue to have fun on your "adventures".


I believe labeling everything that happens as "games" with a negative connotation is too simplistic. Is is possible to differentiate between game that is manipulative and game is that is flirtatious or builds sexual tension?

I think it's fair to say there is considerable overlap so that's probably where a lot of the distaste comes from. Often, making a clear cut distinction is near impossible. It seems to me that manipulation of people's feelings is natural for humans, particularly in dating. Women and men do it, routinely. This begs the question whether any negative judgment should be applied to it, if it is so common i.e. should it be called manipulative at all? Byron Katie said that when you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Seeing such a common human behavior as "bad" seems to me to be simply not loving and accepting what *is*.

I think a huge part of the problem stems from the fact that what *feels* right to people, because that's the way evolution has programmed them (to benefit their genes), often doesn't tally with their rational beliefs, or social/cultural conditioning.

Humans are programmed for both self-interest and interest of others. In relationships particularly, these goals are not at all perfectly aligned. The early days of a relationship are particularly important since that is where the die is mostly cast on the nature of the relationship long term, so there's a lot of jostling for position in both senses lol


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