# Could you reconcile?



## Rookie4

Hi, I 've been lurking here for a while , trying to decide if I want to get involved .
My situation is that while I'm getting some good advice from an Individual Counselor, I would also like to get some from other people who have been in my shoes, so to speak.
I was married for 25 years, and have two kids. My ex-wife and I had , what I would have termed (until a year ago) a great marriage. Both my ex-wife and I had good jobs (She is a hospital tech and I'm a shift supervisor in a factory), plus we operated a side business (farm). We were happy, I guess, or at least I was happy, until 2 years ago. My plant began to downsize and I was forced to move to third shift to keep my job. She works evenings, so our together time was at a minimum. She complained , but there wasn't much I could do, without quitting and losing seniority and pension benefits. We began to argue a lot and and that put a further strain on us. 
I got a call from one of her co-workers who informed me that she thought my wife was getting too close to another lab tech, named Brad. When we were able to get some alone time, I asked her about it, and she said that it was nothing to worry about , just friends. Because of the heads up, I began to notice some things about my wife. She was working out more, dressing nicer, and wearing more provocative undies. Since I rarely saw her after she got home from work, I don't know when she got home , at all. Our kids are all in college so there isn't anybody to say when or if she got home, after work. One thing for sure was that she would call me at first break and we would chat about stuff.
One night, two winters ago, I got sick at work and called her to say I was coming home, early. When I got home, at about 2 am, I noticed her car was still warm because the snow was melting on the hood, so she had just got home from somewhere right before I did. Now, when I called her to tell her I was coming home, she specifically told me she was home, which was clearly a lie. I didn't mention it, but I began to keep my eyes open more. This is really bothering me, so I'll finish it later.


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## Bricko

Rookie4 said:


> I was married for 25 years, and have two kids. My ex-wife and I had , what I would have termed (until a year ago) a great marriage.


Rookie,
From your use of the term ex-wife and past tense when referring to your marriage, I am guessing that you divorced your wife.

I'll wait till you get a chance to finish your intro story.


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## LetDownNTX

Rookie4 said:


> Hi, I 've been lurking here for a while , trying to decide if I want to get involved .
> My situation is that while I'm getting some good advice from an Individual Counselor, I would also like to get some from other people who have been in my shoes, so to speak.
> I was married for 25 years, and have two kids. My ex-wife and I had , what I would have termed (until a year ago) a great marriage. Both my ex-wife and I had good jobs (She is a hospital tech and I'm a shift supervisor in a factory), plus we operated a side business (farm). We were happy, I guess, or at least I was happy, until 2 years ago. My plant began to downsize and I was forced to move to third shift to keep my job. She works evenings, so our together time was at a minimum. She complained , but there wasn't much I could do, without quitting and losing seniority and pension benefits. We began to argue a lot and and that put a further strain on us.
> I got a call from one of her co-workers who informed me that she thought my wife was getting too close to another lab tech, named Brad. When we were able to get some alone time, I asked her about it, and she said that it was nothing to worry about , just friends. Because of the heads up, I began to notice some things about my wife. She was working out more, dressing nicer, and wearing more provocative undies. Since I rarely saw her after she got home from work, I don't know when she got home , at all. Our kids are all in college so there isn't anybody to say when or if she got home, after work. One thing for sure was that she would call me at first break and we would chat about stuff.
> One night, two winters ago, I got sick at work and called her to say I was coming home, early. When I got home, at about 2 am, I noticed her car was still warm because the snow was melting on the hood, so she had just got home from somewhere right before I did. Now, when I called her to tell her I was coming home, she specifically told me she was home, which was clearly a lie. I didn't mention it, but I began to keep my eyes open more. This is really bothering me, so I'll finish it later.


This is like only watching half a movie and having to wait til tomorrow to see the end...UGH!!!


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## Saki

Curious what she has admitted to...


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## TDSC60

So you found out that she was in a physical affair and was cheating on you so you divorced her, right?

For me, if my wife's emotional had gone physical there would be no reconciling. It was hard enough dealing with the emotional aspect.


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## Rookie4

Sorry I'm so late getting back, but I've been busy and it is really , really hard to say what comes next. Later that week, I asked her about it and we had a real bad , knockdown drag out fight about it and she admitted everything. She said that he was a much better lover than me, was younger, more fit and had a bigger "tool", than I did. Now, when we were just married, As a joke, we measured my "tool", and it was 7.5 inches long and really big around, so Brad must be hung like a horse. She left that night and stayed with Brad, for IDK how long, but when she called me later that month, she was living with her parents. She said she wanted to get back together and forget about the past, and work for the future. I refused and we divorced later that year. Since then she has been trying to get me to give her another chance, saying she was lying about the sex being better with Brad, just to anger me and get me to fight for her. I don't beleive anything she says. Our kids want us to reconcile, both sets of parents do as well. In fact it is the main source of conversation when any of us get together. Everybody wants us to reconcile, but me. I talked to some of her co-workers and they say that she bragged about getting "steak" instead of "hamburger", and that a younger man was just what she needed. She says that the affair was partially my fault for not being home more and working night shift. But that in order that there be no "walls ", between us, she will tell me everything that happened and will completely "cut Brad out of her life", forever. IDK what to do about this. I know I can live with her, even though I don't love or trust her, so that everybody in both families will be happy, or I can go my own way and refuse to take her back, and continue as I'm doing now. She has told me that she will prove that she loves me and only wants an opportunity to do so. IDK , can any relationship this bad ever get any better?


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## The Middleman

I don't see how I could ever consider reconciling with someone who told me those things after 25 years together, and then moves in with Boy Toy. Now that he threw her out and you divorced her she wants to come back? If you are asking me what I would do? I'd tell her to go F*** herself.


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## joe kidd

Sounds as if she won't own it. Tell her as much.


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## Cdelta02

There are many people who reconcile post cheating. They can get over the cheating and the betrayal. What I have yet to see is people successfully reconciling when
1. The Wayward Spouse has completely devalued and thrown the BS under the bus
2. When the WW has compared sex and tool sizes and did the things your spouse did
3. When there is at least one person who doesnt want to reconcile.

You meet all three parameters.

If you reconcile now just because of peer / familial pressure, you will soon regret it. You wont love her, you wont enjoy your time with her and she will once again find someone else to go after.

You should tell your parents and family (not the kids-see below) to back off. If they love you they need to do what is good for you and that means backing off on the pressure to R.

The discussion you have with your kids is different. You need to tell them that their mom left you and showed that she never really loved you. In that situation, while you may not want this status, it does not behoove you to get back with someone who doesnt love you and who you cannot love and trust. Let them digest and deal with this. They dont have to like it, they just have to understand it. Also they may want to play cupid, let them, thats how kids are, they want to go back to the old days. BUT make sure you extricate yourself from those cupid-y situations, do it gracefully without losing your cool. Tell them that you would love to meet with them when you can have their undivided attention and when WW is not present. Be straight with them.

In short, dont do anything silly out of peer pressure. You have a right to be happy. Dont short change yourself on it.


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## Juicer

Well, my wife had a pretty bad affair. 

But she never tried to demean me as man to my face, or anyone else. And if she did, I would rather be dead than trying to reconcile with her. 

I think your wife planned on:
Trading you in for a newer model. One that was younger, stronger, more horse power, everything. She thought she had found a 2.0 version of you. 
Then she lost it to someone else. 
Because if they cheat with you, they'll cheat on you. 

Since you are divorced, I would tell you not to. 

The complete lack of respect. 

She isn't sorry that she destroyed you. She isn't sorry that she trampled your ego into the ground. That she nailed your manhood to a tree. That she shattered your heart. That she did all these horrible things that no man should have to bear. 

She is sorry because she isn't going to get what she originally wanted. 
So now she wants plan B because plan A fell though. 

As for your parents, your kids:
Your parents aren't you. Don't listen to them. They don't know how humilating it must have been for you. 

Your kids are in college. They should be able to cope. They will see that infidelity has consequences, and learn to not commit it.


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## Juicer

I realized I forgot the most important I should've asked. 

What is it that you want?
Do you know at this point?
Or do you want us to discuss the pro's and con's of it all?

Because, this is just an observation:
But sounds like you would take her back just because everyone else is telling you to, and you want to keep the peace. But your heart wouldn't be in it. 
You just want to live your life away from her without people telling you what to do. 

And if I am correct about the above, here is what you do:
Change your cell phone number, and tell all your relatives. But no one on her side of the family. 
Then you tell them all "We will not be getting back together. And you will respect my wishes, because it is not you she cheated on, it is me. So respect my wishes."
And if your family still brings it up, then just walk out of the room. But start enforcing some boundaries if you don't like talking about it.


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## Shaggy

IF she actually wanted to reconcile Brad would already be cut out of her life. 

But obviously she's still banging him on the side in case you stay smart and refuse to take her back.

I would highly recommend you do not take her back, there's no remorse at all, and she's still in contact and likely having sex with the OM - so even though she's divorced from you I still count that as cheating.

So hell no.


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## Rookie4

I agree with all you guys are saying. I guess that the way she compared Brad's love making to mine is the most difficult to get over. She says she was just saying that to hurt me , while we were fighting, and to show her co-workers that she was "over me", and was in a better place, but that she soon realized that she had made a huge mistake and that it was me she always loved but I was never around to show her any affection. I wonder how those of you who have been cheated on, ever get over the comparisons, real or immagined between the husband and the lover?. she swears that our sex was always better but that since I went on thirds, we never "did it", as often as we did before, which is true.


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## Jonesey

Shaggy said:


> IF she actually wanted to reconcile Brad would already be cut out of her life.
> 
> Could not agree more
> 
> 
> But obviously she's still banging him on the side in case you stay smart and refuse to take her back.
> 
> I would highly recommend you do not take her back, there's no remorse at all, and she's still in contact and likely having sex with the OM - so even though she's divorced from you I still count that as cheating.
> 
> So hell no.


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## Jonesey

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with all you guys are saying. I guess that the way she compared Brad's love making to mine is the most difficult to get over. She says she was just saying that to hurt me , while we were fighting, and to show her co-workers that she was "over me", and was in a better place, but that she soon realized that she had made a huge mistake and that it was me she always loved but I was never around to show her any affection. I wonder how those of you who have been cheated on, ever get over the comparisons, real or immagined between the husband and the lover?. she swears that our sex was always better but that since I went on thirds, we never "did it", as often as we did before, which is true.


Now I'm really confused. Did you two get divorced one year ago?

And has she been seeing Brad the whole time??
Im lost now


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## Rookie4

Shaggy said:


> IF she actually wanted to reconcile Brad would already be cut out of her life.
> 
> But obviously she's still banging him on the side in case you stay smart and refuse to take her back.
> 
> I would highly recommend you do not take her back, there's no remorse at all, and she's still in contact and likely having sex with the OM - so even though she's divorced from you I still count that as cheating.
> 
> So hell no.


Shaggy, she SAYS that she is the one who broke it off with Brad, not him, and that she has not seen him , outside of work since she went to her parents house. Her Mom says that he would not ever have been welcomed and that she vouches for her daughters words. I don't know how, but that is what she said.


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## Rookie4

By the way, her Mom is a real fine Christian woman and would not lie for her daughter, so she believes what she said.


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## Paladin

To answer some of your questions, most relationships can be made better if there are two willing participants that want to make them better. The same goes for reconciliation, it is possible if the people involved are willing to do the hard work that is required of them.

You really need to sit back and think about your own feelings on this matter. I can tell you from personal experience (I was the BS) that reconciliation is very difficult, but very rewarding as well. My wife and I are growing closer with every passing day, and our new marriage is stronger, better, and healthier than the old one ever was. So you need to ask yourself if the history, love, understanding, and companionship you had with our DW is worth putting yourself through some of the hardest stuff you will ever have to face in your life.

Im 90% in favor of trying for R under almost any circumstances. I have one big reservation when it comes to your story. You say that your DW "will" cut brad out of her life if you offer to R, implying that she has not already done so. If this is the case, and brad is still in any way shape or form part of her life, your chances at R are almost non existent. If brad is still part of her life, it is a pretty clear signal that she is most probably still waiting to see where her chips fall, and has no real interest in atoning for destroying your heart, life, and marriage.


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## Shaggy

But why would you want to take back someone who so willingly and easily betrayed you?

How long did she live with Brad?

I think you'll find that Brad likley cheated on her with someone better and younger, but I'll also bet that they've hooked up since she moved back home.


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## jim123

Rookie4 said:


> Shaggy, she SAYS that she is the one who broke it off with Brad, not him, and that she has not seen him , outside of work since she went to her parents house. Her Mom says that he would not ever have been welcomed and that she vouches for her daughters words. I don't know how, but that is what she said.


Time to keep moving on. She had her chance and threw it away. Would you really be happy.


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## zookeeper

Come on, Rookie. You already know the answer to this. 

Don't get take her back for your parents/in-laws. They don't have a say.

Don't take her back for your kids. They are adults. They would probably still like to see you together but I doubt highly that they don't understand exactly what happened. 

I think she learned the hard lesson so many older, cheating women do. Women often find it ridiculously easy to get men to have sex with them. What is much harder is to get one to enter into a relationship, particularly a younger man. OM have a tendency to be very interested while the woman is still entagled and unavailable, but will run like their asses are on fire once she leaves the husband and proclaims, "I'm all yours now!"

You've already gone through the hard part, don't put yourself back into harms way. She is not only a liar and cheat, but nasty and cruel as well. Stay away.


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## Will_Kane

Everybody would be happy if you took her back, swept the whole matter under the rug, and went on as if this thing had never happened. They miss the way the family used to get together and interact and they want that back. That is selfish of them, but I think they also think that YOU will be happier taking her back, too. They don't really understand the impact of infidelity, they probably are not aware of the cruel and hurtful way she left you, the way she bad-mouthed you to her coworkers, and the way she has tried to blame you for her affair.

*What do you want? No one else gets a say about who you are with romantically.* 

She still works with the guy? How will you be able to live with that?

Your wife sounds desparate. If she really loved you, she would have been back to you much quicker and would not have given you the cruel treatment she did and said what she did to her coworkers. Can you imagine doing something like that or saying something like that to and about your children or your parents, whom you love? But she supposedly loved you and was able to do it.

Her desire to reunite with you seems like it's more out of a desire to get out of Mom and Dad's house and live in a house of her own again, than because she loves you.


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## Rookie4

Jonesy, the Divorce was final approx. a year ago. The affair was a year or so before that. According to her, her Mom and her minister, she realized her "sins", and asked forgiveness. She SAYS she hasn't been with Brad since the first month after the affair was revealed. She has always said that, even a year ago during our meetings , pre-divorce. She has publically begged my forgiveness several times since and continues to do so , to this day.


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## alte Dame

Your family should want the best for you and that is for you to be happy, not to take a bullet for family harmony.


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## Rookie4

Zookeeper, even before, she has always had a bad temper, and would say the most hurtful things she could. Whether or not Brad actually IS a better lover, I can't say, or whether she said those things out of anger, is anyone's guess. My best guess is that he wasn't better , just more available and attentive, while I was busting my ass on third shift.


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## The Cro-Magnon

Is there any crap women dish out that men will not try to find a way to eat?

If what she did is not a total, utter, instant, and eternally irrevocable deal breaker, then I don't know what is.

She was dumped by her toyboy, and doesn't like being old & alone, and wants you back to so that SHE can feel "comfortable" again. To hell with your feelings and your life.

You want to wake up and have to look at a woman that told you THOSE things everyday for the rest of your life?

FFS, she walked out on you completely, spent the next year or more porking him without a thought for you, and only comes grovelling back once she's obviously been dumped? What human with even an ounce of self-respect would want to be with such a creature....

You did the right thing divorcing IMHO, don't go backwards, she didn't want your love, or to share your life, and dumped you just for a bigger cawk.

She made her bed, let her lie in it. Let her stew in her own loneliness, misery, and self-disgust, don't let her USE you like some tool to absolve HERself, and heal HERself, to ensure HER life is happy again.

Your ex-wife disgusts me as a human being.


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## Rookie4

Will, I think that she means that if I give her another chance, she will quit her job so as not to be in the same building as Brad. But I'm just guessing. By the way, she is living in an appartment with another woman, who attends the same church, who also said that she has never had a male visitor and that she (the room-mate) would also not allow brad into the appartment. But you all see how it is. Everybody is vouching for her, she is acting like an angel, telling everyone and sundry how much she loves me and is so sorry, that now I'm becoming the bad guy for being an unfeeling, unforgiving, non-Christian, for not giving her a chance to redeem herself..


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## tom67

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Is there any crap women dish out that men will not try to find a way to eat?
> 
> If what she did is not a total, utter, instant, and eternally irrevocable deal breaker, then I don't know what is.
> 
> She was dumped by her toyboy, and doesn't like being old & alone, and wants you back to so that SHE can feel "comfortable" again. To hell with your feelings and your life.
> 
> You want to wake up and have to look at a woman that told you THOSE things everyday for the rest of your life?
> 
> FFS, she walked out on you completely, spent the next year or more porking him without a thought for you, and only comes grovelling back once she's obviously been dumped? What human with even an ounce of self-respect would want to be with such a creature....
> 
> You did the right thing divorcing IMHO, don't go backwards, she didn't want your love, or to share your life, and dumped you just for a bigger cawk.
> 
> She made her bed, let her lie in it. Let her stew in her own loneliness, misery, and self-disgust, don't let her USE you like some tool to absolve HERself, and heal HERself, to ensure HER life is happy again.
> 
> Your ex-wife disgusts me as a human being.


My ex after leaving me more than 2 years ago is acting all nice because they broke up. My 15 yr old d told her mother I was seeing a 27 yr old she met her once by accident. I was devistated for a year but I moved on. I'm 45 vbtw.


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## Entropy3000

In answer to the original question :

No


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## jameskimp

Your judgement was correct in divorcing her. Don't second guess yourself now. You can forgive her but don't ever forget what she did to you.


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## didntcitcoming

I think she learned the hard lesson so many older, cheating women do. Women often find it ridiculously easy to get men to have sex with them. What is much harder is to get one to enter into a relationship, particularly a younger man. OM have a tendency to be very interested while the woman is still entagled and unavailable, but will run like their asses are on fire once she leaves the husband and proclaims, "I'm all yours now!"


:iagree::iagree::iagree: it's amazing to me that most men know this and most women don't


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## Rookie4

I also don't want to give the impression that I'm still pining about my marriage. Since the Divorce, I've been dating and have had a couple of really fun and highly sexual mini-relationships, and have been told by lots of ladies that i'm a highly desirable man. One woman has offered to begin a Live-in type of relationship with me, and she is really nice , sexy and a few years younger than my ex-wife. so I really can't complain. I guess that I DO love my family and DO want them to be happy, but I DON"T want repeat this hideous situation. Plus the holidays are when both families get together and that is very tough, even after a year.


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## aug

Rookie4 said:


> I also don't want to give the impression that I'm still pining about my marriage. Since the Divorce, I've been dating and have had a couple of really fun and highly sexual mini-relationships, and have been told by lots of ladies that i'm a highly desirable man. One woman has offered to begin a Live-in type of relationship with me, and she is really nice , sexy and a few years younger than my ex-wife. so I really can't complain. I guess that I DO love my family and DO want them to be happy, but I DON"T want repeat this hideous situation. Plus the holidays are when both families get together and that is very tough, even after a year.



Why are you even thinking of reconciling with your cheating divorced ex?

Banish the thought from your head!


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## Rookie4

aug said:


> Why are you even thinking of reconciling with your cheating divorced ex?
> 
> Banish the thought from your head!


When she found out I was sleeping with a younger woman, she came to the house and was sobbing and asked , " How could you forget me so fast?" I didn't know how to answer her.


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## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> When she found out I was sleeping with a younger woman, she came to the house and was sobbing and asked , " How could you forget me so fast?" I didn't know how to answer her.


Duh


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## Malaise

Rookie4 said:


> When she found out I was sleeping with a younger woman, she came to the house and was sobbing and asked , " How could you forget me so fast?" I didn't know how to answer her.


Should have said;

"How could *YOU* have forgotten *ME* after 25 years?


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## tom67

old timer said:


> Duh


Hello McFly!!


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## SadandAngry

Rookie4 said:


> When she found out I was sleeping with a younger woman, she came to the house and was sobbing and asked , " How could you forget me so fast?" I didn't know how to answer her.


"a) I am not married, b) It's none of your [email protected] business, c) She is way better in bed than you, much ti...."

I admit c is horribly cruel and mean, not that your wife doesn't deserve it, but it is better for your self respect to stay on the high road. a and b though, by all means!

You've still not really answered how you feel directly. R is a hard row to hoe, much harder than D in the long run Is think (I don't know for sure, I'm in R myself). Forgiveness, if it comes, is independent of either option really, and it is more for you than for her anyway. She isn't really owning her actions at this point either. The affair is 100% her choice, her selfishness, her lack of character, it had NOTHING to do with you. Until she owns that, I'd say you have nothing to talk to her about, not even the kids, since they are not your joint responsibility anymore. You are not the bad guy, you didn't break your vows, didn't betray the trust that was placed in you. Didn't throw everything away for an infatuation. Your wife did that. If you want to move on, that's no one's business but yours. By the way, just how much do the families know? Do they know about her shooting her mouth off?


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## Rookie4

S&A, both families know everything, even the badmouthing. She told them. Make no mistake, neither family blames me for her actions. My kids have already said that they are ashamed of their mom, and my youngest daughter will barely speak to her. Her own sister apparently slapped her in the chops, when she was told about it (I would REALLY have liked to have seen that). But both our parents are very devout and they believe that she has been forgiven and that the family comes first. My kids just want things to go back to the way they were pre-affair. They all think I am being stubborn and that her words were just so much hot air, and she meant none of them. Also, she has been an open book since the divorce, going nowhere without letting her Mom or sister know where she is and what she's doing. she tried several times to inform me, but I didn't want to get involved.


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## Malaise

Rookie4 said:


> S&A, both families know everything, even the badmouthing. She told them. Make no mistake, neither family blames me for her actions. My kids have already said that they are ashamed of their mom, and my youngest daughter will barely speak to her. Her own sister apparently slapped her in the chops, when she was told about it (I would REALLY have liked to have seen that). But both our parents are very devout and they believe that she has been forgiven and that the family comes first. My kids just want things to go back to the way they were pre-affair. *They all think I am being stubborn and that her words were just so much hot air, and she meant none of them.* Also, she has been an open book since the divorce, going nowhere without letting her Mom or sister know where she is and what she's doing. she tried several times to inform me, but I didn't want to get involved.


Words are just that, words. It's her actions that were important then, not what she said.

She had sex with OM over a period of time. That is what should concern you not what she said in anger.

And your parents think she has been forgiven? By whom?

The only one who should forgive is you. Have you done so?


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## SadandAngry

Malaise said:


> Words are just that, words. It's her actions that were important then, not what she said.
> 
> She had sex with OM over a period of time. That is what should concern you not what she said in anger.
> 
> And your parents think she has been forgiven? By whom?
> 
> The only one who should forgive is you. Have you done so?


As I said before, even if you were to forgive her. it does not mean you want her back.


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## WyshIknew

If you are done with her you are done, move on as you have been doing and put her nonsense behind you.

If you feel there is any chance of R and you want it you don't have to jump straight back into marriage.
Take some time, date her even if it is just a family outing, start afresh.

Whatever you do, do it because you want to, not because the families think it would be a good idea.


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## TBT

Malaise said:


> Words are just that, words. It's her actions that were important then, not what she said.
> 
> She had sex with OM over a period of time. That is what should concern you not what she said in anger.
> 
> And your parents think she has been forgiven? By whom?
> 
> The only one who should forgive is you. Have you done so?


Exactly this.You already said you don't love her or trust her and it's you who would have to live with her...do what's going to make you happy.It would be nice to see your family a lot more supportive of your happiness imo.


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## DedicatedDad

*"Could you reconcile?"* *NO WAY!!!*

My EXGF did the same thing to me when I confronted her. She told me that her new biker dude was more of a man than me *(because I guess only real men ride harley daivdsons - whatever :scratchhead*. The minute she compared me to another man I was done. That was 22 years ago and the scar that it left on me is still not completely healed.

As for your devout christian relatives, tell them *Jesus said a man could divorce his wife if she committed adultery, so you are under no moral obligation to take her back*. Tell them you are following the scriptures and then get yourself a good night sleep because you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.

Look your EXW may have indeed had a real come to Jesus moment...that's great, good for her, but what she did, publicly humiliating you like that and then rubbing her affair in your face like that?, man that is just the ultimate deal breaker for me, going back to someone like that would make me look like everything she said I was...weak

I would tell them they need to back off on the guilt trip thing and stop trying to make you out to be the bad guy. Tell them the things your EXW did to you can not be undone and that you will not be pressured into taking her back and risk letting her do it again. 

I would also tell them that another big reason you won't take her back, is because if you do and she does it again, not only will you not forgive her, *but you may never be able to forgive them for making you feel guilty and setting you up to be a two-time fool*


----------



## Kasler

You need to tell your family to back off, period. 

My family is christian and has been for a long time(though I am not as religious as they are) 

My grandmother was shocked that I was in a deep relationship with an atheist(current GF) and she didn't take it too well. Once when I visited with my GF she completely ignored her and that pissed me off somethin fierce. So I told her either she accept my GF or she couldn't be in the life of me or her great grandchild. 

Know what?

She was just here last week for thanksgiving.

If your family truly loves you, then you tell them they need to accept your decision and frankly mind their own business. Unless its destructive behavior or something like drugs their input on your life is not required nor wanted. 

Oh yeah, whether her mother believes her or not isn't worth a damn. Being in a christian family myself I know very well that while many may not lie they frequently refuse to acknowledge the obvious and just tout something from the bible half the time. 

You live YOUR life, to hell with everyone elses expectations. They aren't the ones who would have to live with a woman who would degrade her husband and show no respect like she did.(and don't believe her "get you mad" comment. If that was the sole purpose of saying it theres no way in hell she would've tried to move in with him)

Don't R with her. Date new chicks, and be happy.


----------



## The Middleman

Some of you may know from my previous postings that I am not a believer in Reconciliations where WS had a physical affair, unprotected sex and there was relentless deceit against a BS for a period of time so the affair could flourish (in fact that opinion got me banned). It's my opinion the the WS could never be remorseful enough and could never find a way to make it up to the BS even if they tried for a life time. Now when you add the demeaning nature of tirades against a spouse (as in this case), I don't see how there is anything a WS could ever do to make up for that and reconcile. Just too much damage has occurred. I can't see how anyone with self respect could return to a relationship with such a person. I think that the OP knows this and is looking for confirmation.


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## DavidWYoung

Thank you for acting like a MAN. Thank you for doing the right thing. Thank you for showing the rest of us the right way to deal with a cheating wife. No, the pain that you would live with if you took this woman back is just not worth it, trus me, I know.


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## Kasler

I believe in reconciliation, but I also believe most reconciliations end up false.

Most BSs just don't have the tools needed or even know they exist most of the time. 

Even on here, without the right mindset and the necessary will to divorce if if they're not getting everything the R will most likely fail and be false.

And theres so many examples of this on TAM its truly staggering and twice triggered me. 

I think what can be forgiven depends on the BS. 

Some can get past 5-10 yr long term affairs, some file and follow through after a ONS. Each BS has their line that may or may not have been crossed by their wayward. 

In this case, his wayward is not remorseful. Not truly. Guilty maybe, but no remorse. Still blaming him for the affair and not owning it. 

To R with her would be false R of the highest caliber. 

If she was remorseful of the damage she caused she'd accept his decision while letting him know she still wanted to be with him.

Not showing up to his house and putting him on the spot because hes moving on in his life.

Rookie, I repeat. Don't divorce her. 

No good can come from it except for you dying a little bit each day. Sleeping next to a betrayer, having to wake up and see and smell them. Having to see their face smiling at a joke or some random crap thats unrelated to the affair, but still wanting to put your fist in it(I came close to this more times than I can count, always stopped myself tho)

4.5 months of false R and I was literally paranoid and had PTSD. 

4 yrs later, I can honestly say I'm happy and would change nothing in my life off the top of my head except for the male refraction period not existing. 

Don't R.


----------



## alte Dame

This is truly ridiculous! Completely ridiculous.

Your W cheated and unmanned you. You left, divorced & found a relatively happy place for yourself.

End of story with her. 

My one question reading through this was always whether you had any desire yourself to have her back. It sounds like you don't. Really, not at all.

It's Christian to forgive, so tell your family that you forgive. Forgiving doesn't mean you sacrifice the rest of your life.

You were strong enough to divorce your wife. Now be strong enough to tell your family your decision is final.


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## rrrbbbttt

Your wife and your extended Family are trying to push your "Nice" Guy buttons to make you do something that you will "Settle" for but it will not be right for you.

You seem to be the proverbial "Nice" Guy. You have done everything for your family, been there when the chips were down and manned up and took the 3rd Shift so that your family could continue. In essence you supported them.

Your wife took advantage of the "Nice" Guy and had an affair. She also threw the Nuclear Bomb which she knew she could because you were the "Nice" Guy to destroy you with the comparisons. 

So, she is sorry now, her family, your children etc want you to forgive and forget and get back together. 

The memory of what she did will always be in your mind. I do not believe you will be able to Reconcile your thoughts with your moral character and this will gnaw at you for the rest of your life.

Yes, you can forgive her for what she did but you do not have to live in HELL for the rest of your life because of what everyone else wants. 

You mention the holidays, if you Reconcile because of what others want you will probalby have Triggers over these days because of what she did in the past with Brad during these days of their Affair.

She wants her ATM back and the support she threw away.

You will never be able to Trust her again.


----------



## river rat

Rookie4 said:


> Zookeeper, even before, she has always had a bad temper, and would say the most hurtful things she could. Whether or not Brad actually IS a better lover, I can't say, or whether she said those things out of anger, is anyone's guess. My best guess is that he wasn't better , just more available and attentive, while I was busting my ass on third shift.


Rookie, you do realize that this is a form of abuse, don't you? You have chosen not to be abused any further; there's nothing wrong with that. As far as forgiving her, you can do that without getting back together with her. Considering the injury she inflicted upon you, it would be very difficult to resume a loving and trusting relationship with her. I suggest that you read Janis Spring's "How Can I Forgive You?". As far as the Christian point of view goes, the Bible permits divorce for adultery. And the good Christians in the family should consider your feelings as well, and not judge you.


----------



## warlock07

You can bring back the dead, but it will still be a zombie.

Keep your old marriage where it belongs. Dead and buried.

The irrevocable deal breaker is that she still blames you for her cheating.


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## warlock07

As you must have realized by now, her relationship with Brad did not work out..


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## Kallan Pavithran

She saw you happy with a younger girl this was aganist what she thought it will be.
This is your chance to be happy with your new found freedom and happiness. Go man enjoy it to the full. I was in your shoes but I never even thought of taking her back. If I may have took her I may have been dwelling in pain and hurt seeing her every day. Which too i experienced during My false R with her.
Now I am more happy and enjoying my life to the full with My children and GF.
Dont allow any one to guilt trip you to take back a cheater and destroy your happiness for ever.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Rookie4 said:


> Will, I think that she means that if I give her another chance, she will quit her job so as not to be in the same building as Brad. But I'm just guessing. By the way, she is living in an appartment with another woman, who attends the same church, who also said that she has never had a male visitor and that she (the room-mate) would also not allow brad into the appartment. But you all see how it is. *Everybody is vouching for her, she is acting like an angel, telling everyone and sundry how much she loves me and is so sorry, that now I'm becoming the bad guy for being an unfeeling, unforgiving, non-Christian, for not giving her a chance to redeem herself..*



She is manipulating and guilt tripping you for R with the help of others.


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## Cdelta02

Both your heart and your mind are telling you the same thing everyone else here is. Walk away from this woman or keep away rather.

The problem is your guilt. You have misplaced guilt which makes you feel like you are the one obstacle for everyone to be happy. If only you said yes to her, everyone would go back to a happy existence.

Know what? It doesn't work that way. If you do go back, everyone will smile once and go back to their lives. It wont really matter to them because its NOT THEIR LIFE. ITS YOURS.

You have to do what is good for you. You two have been separate and the world hasnt collapsed has it? No one died of heartbreak did they? No one in the family went crazy did they? Guess what, people will move on like they did already.

Tell them you have found new love (they dont need to know the truth) and want to make your new relationship work and if they respect and love you, they need to back off. That will give you the space you need to really think through your misplaced guilt.

You do need to fix your guilt. But in no way am I saying that you fix it by taking the BTCH back.

((And I am not pro D or pro R btw. I think every person, every situation is different and needs to be dealt with on their own merits))


----------



## Numbersixxx

Your wife cheated on you, bragged about it to her co-workers, she insulted and emasculated you. And from what I read, she tried very hard doing that. Here, let me borrow the PUA jargon. What she did was ridding the alpha **** carousel and when she naturally got discarded, she decided that she actually wants a “nice man”. Of course, you are now supposed to just “man up”, be the dependable beta (now ex)husband and accept her sloppy seconds. Also, I hope you take in consideration that if you take her back you will just reward her past behaviour. 

If you still had young kids I would understand staying with her, but yours are adults. There is absolutely no reason to waste your time with such trash. Divorcing her was the right choice. You are already building your new life with another woman. Continue doing that. With your ex-wife you will only have mental pictures of Brad doing her in every position.

And since she is such a Christian now, you can quote to her Deuteronomy 22:22: "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."


----------



## CH

Oh boy, he's bigger and a better lover. Just the cheating alone is enough but to rub salt, lemon juice and then pour acid over the wound.

Not happening. She got used and abused by the other man and now wants Mr. Safe guy back....Sucks to be her now. When you find that perfect woman, she's going to be kicking her behind for the rest of her life.


----------



## Acabado

Dunno... i say do what makes you happy. Figure out what that means.
I don't believe there's right or wrong. If you came here only becuase you are sick of external pressures then I'd go with the rest to assure you you made the right decision and tell all of them to f0ck off. But I'm also concious maybe a part of you would like to give it a last shot. If so, don't be ashamed for it. Actually your story is no different than the rest. She screwed up, went deep in a MLC sort of, felt so empowered, entitled, self centered... as many, reacted badly, screwed up even more royaly in the aftermath... nothing new under the sun. Very typical actually. Then it seems she changed again. The chances for R are always based on the same: remorse from the WS's part and capacioty for forgiveness at the BS's part in order to build back a meaningful relationship. Also you can watch ,from a place of detachment whether she actually is remorseful or not, whether she's actually owning all her stuff, she should show you the maths, the thought process change... that you arenot merely her ticked to safety, her ticked to regain repitation, her Plan B after having no more choices.... You can put now the bar as high as you pleases. You can set the timeframe, the rules. You can try and change mind later. There's no rules if you want. You can force to do it behind everybodys' back as long as you want.
What if she did tell you those emasculation words out of spite, what if she actually believed them back then? Happens many times. People is very often vicious when they are angry. So what? I don't find it an impediment. She' be forced now to be a sex godness to overcompensate not only what she did nad told but your post DDay new partners. You can relink the relationship without remarrying... You put the rules. No pressure.
It's possible a part of your reluctance is precisely due external pressure, we react badly to pressure, generaly going in the opposite direction. Basic human psychology. Pride often play agaist us.

That's all. Go for what makes you happy. Whatever it means. If you are happy with things as they are now, f0ck them all. Don't let external (family) and internal pressure (guilt, religion) rule your choices. Just wanted to offer a different perspective.

Good luck


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

OP, it looks like you have rebounded fantastically from this mess that was the last 2 years. I "like" how she tried to manipulate you into taking her back by asking how you could so easily cast her aside for a younger woman. HA! All you have to say is it was you that cast me aside to be with a younger person. Since you threw me away as trash, I can't help it that other WOMEN think of me as a treasure. 

When you throw something away and the garbage man picks up the trash, it's gone forever.


----------



## Rookie4

I agree with pretty much all of this, but there is this niggling thought, in the back of my mind. What if she is sincere? What if this was a one-time aberation, brought on by a bad situation, and she will truly be the woman I married again? Let me tell you, that before the Affair, I KNOW that she loved me, and I KNOW that I loved her. After 25 years, I know her pretty well, and some of what she says about the affair I know to be true, just from past (non infidelity) issues and situations. My ex is a very emotional and dramatic woman, who has always worn her heart on her sleeve, so to speak. About 15 years ago, when I was still an engineer and not yet in production, we went to a corporate garden party and I got drunk and kissed a woman and she caught us. She went ballistic and screamed and swore and made a huge scene. I apologized for months afterwards, even though it meant less than nothing to me. So I guess I'm not totally innocent, either.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with pretty much all of this, but there is this niggling thought, in the back of my mind. What if she is sincere? What if this was a one-time aberation, brought on by a bad situation, and she will truly be the woman I married again? Let me tell you, that before the Affair, I KNOW that she loved me, and I KNOW that I loved her. After 25 years, I know her pretty well, and some of what she says about the affair I know to be true, just from past (non infidelity) issues and situations. My ex is a very emotional and dramatic woman, who has always worn her heart on her sleeve, so to speak. About 15 years ago, when I was still an engineer and not yet in production, we went to a corporate garden party and I got drunk and kissed a woman and she caught us. She went ballistic and screamed and swore and made a huge scene. I apologized for months afterwards, even though it meant less than nothing to me. So I guess I'm not totally innocent, either.


Seems like you have made up your mind and were looking for justification for your decision and you did not get it.

We all have been given the right to make choices in our lives you seem to have made yours and nothing we say here is going to change your mind.

I hope it works out for you.


----------



## old timer

*Rookie4:* There are very few "innocents" in this world, IMO.


----------



## the guy

I still haven't read the action your wife is taking in addressing her own issues with regards to her choice to let her boundries go, why she felt intitled and her validation issues.

I mean she hasn't owned up, she has gone to learn the tools to prevent this from happening again.


It seems like she is the same women that commited adultory....just sadder.

I mean she has alot going for her with regards to taking action to stay out of trouple, but does she really....really understand *her self* enough to prevent it from happening again?


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Dunno... i say do what makes you happy. Figure out what that means.
> I don't believe there's right or wrong. If you came here only becuase you are sick of external pressures then I'd go with the rest to assure you you made the right decision and tell all of them to f0ck off. But I'm also concious maybe a part of you would like to give it a last shot. If so, don't be ashamed for it. Actually your story is no different than the rest. She screwed up, went deep in a MLC sort of, felt so empowered, entitled, self centered... as many, reacted badly, screwed up even more royaly in the aftermath... nothing new under the sun. Very typical actually. Then it seems she changed again. The chances for R are always based on the same: remorse from the WS's part and capacioty for forgiveness at the BS's part in order to build back a meaningful relationship. Also you can watch ,from a place of detachment whether she actually is remorseful or not, whether she's actually owning all her stuff, she should show you the maths, the thought process change... that you arenot merely her ticked to safety, her ticked to regain repitation, her Plan B after having no more choices.... You can put now the bar as high as you pleases. You can set the timeframe, the rules. You can try and change mind later. There's no rules if you want. You can force to do it behind everybodys' back as long as you want.
> What if she did tell you those emasculation words out of spite, what if she actually believed them back then? Happens many times. People is very often vicious when they are angry. So what? I don't find it an impediment. She' be forced now to be a sex godness to overcompensate not only what she did nad told but your post DDay new partners. You can relink the relationship without remarrying... You put the rules. No pressure.
> It's possible a part of your reluctance is precisely due external pressure, we react badly to pressure, generaly going in the opposite direction. Basic human psychology. Pride often play agaist us.
> 
> That's all. Go for what makes you happy. Whatever it means. If you are happy with things as they are now, f0ck them all. Don't let external (family) and internal pressure (guilt, religion) rule your choices. Just wanted to offer a different perspective.
> 
> Good luck


Acabado, as you can see, we both have a lot of guilt. My middle daughter wants us to have a "family", Christmas, at the house. Just our immediate family. I don't know if I can take it or not.


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> Acabado, as you can see, we both have a lot of guilt. My middle daughter wants us to have a "family", Christmas, at the house. Just our immediate family. I don't know if I can take it or not.



How old is the daughter?


----------



## Rookie4

the guy said:


> I still haven't read the action your wife is taking in addressing her own issues with regards to her choice to let her boundries go, why she felt intitled and her validation issues.
> 
> I mean she hasn't owned up, she has gone to learn the tools to prevent this from happening again.
> 
> 
> It seems like she is the same women that commited adultory....just sadder.
> 
> I mean she has alot going for her with regards to taking action to stay out of trouple, but does she really....really understand *her self* enough to prevent it from happening again?


I guess this is the $64,000 question, isn't it. I mean, I DID cheat, sort of, before didn't I? It wasn't an emotional affair or anything like that. It was a DOTK, a drunken one time kiss. It has never happened again, and WILL never happen again. She was seeing Brad for approximately 4 months or so and it was sexual only for the last couple of weeks, so she says. IF this is true, is she capable of owning her bad decisions and actions? I would give a lot to know that.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> How old is the daughter?


My kids are 20,22 and 24.


----------



## tom67

Rookie4 said:


> My kids are 20,22 and 24.


I'm sorry but a one time drunken kiss is NOT the same as screwing a guy at work for months jmo.


----------



## Numbersixxx

Rookie4 said:


> I also don't want to give the impression that I'm still pining about my marriage. Since the Divorce, I've been dating and have had a couple of really fun and highly sexual mini-relationships, and have been told by lots of ladies that i'm a highly desirable man. One woman has offered to begin a Live-in type of relationship with me, and she is really nice , sexy and a few years younger than my ex-wife. so I really can't complain. I guess that I DO love my family and DO want them to be happy, but I DON"T want repeat this hideous situation. Plus the holidays are when both families get together and that is very tough, even after a year.


So, would your throw away a relationship with a really nice and sexy younger woman for what is basically damaged good?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

You can't think about his as if you have equivalent guilt because you kissed a woman at a party many years ago. I assume it was a passionate kiss and wasn't something more innocent. But to equate that with what your wife did to you is nonsensical. 

It comes down to what do you want? You said in several posts that you no longer love your wife and that you can never trust her again yet...I think in reality you still do love your wife. If you didn't love her, then I don't think you would have started this thread. 

Based on what you posted, it sounds like you definitely came out ahead when it came to seeing other people. Granted she cheated on you with Brad and emasculated you with her affair. But since your separation and divorce, it sounds like you had more action with more women than she did with men. If you are keen on reconciliation, you can use the experiences you had as your "revenge affairs" - without the guilt since you were already divorced - so that the playing field is leveled. So in my mind the questions remaining are 1) can you trust her and 2) can you get over the fact that she emasculated you. One thing that MUST change is her temper and her verbal abuse. Do not accept it from her ever again. 

Good luck in whatever you decide.


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> My kids are 20,22 and 24.


22 yo should be able to handle your decision, imo. 

But, after all is said, it is your decision.


----------



## Rookie4

Numbersixxx said:


> So, would your throw away a relationship with a really nice and sexy younger woman for what is basically damaged good?


6, Whatever happens, I would NEVER characterize the woman I have spent 1/2 my life with, the mother of my 3 children, and the woman who, until a couple of years ago, was my biggest supporter and best friend, as "damaged goods". I may not reconcile , but I'm not going to forget 25 good years, and crucify her for 4 months of bad time.


----------



## Acabado

the guy said:


> I still haven't read the action your wife is taking in addressing her own issues with regards to her choice to let her boundries go, why she felt intitled and her validation issues.
> 
> I mean she hasn't owned up, she has gone to learn the tools to prevent this from happening again.
> 
> 
> It seems like she is the same women that commited adultory....just sadder.
> 
> I mean she has alot going for her with regards to taking action to stay out of trouple, but does she really....really understand *her self* enough to prevent it from happening again?


:iagree:
Any potential reconciliation must start by testing her on all of it. She obviously went back to church. Not a bad thing but.. did she really made some work on herself, read a single book, went to IC to figure herself, have the smallest idea on how she weetn towards that path? And what's her "plan for reconciliation?


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> 6, Whatever happens, I would NEVER characterize the woman I have spent 1/2 my life with, the mother of my 3 children, and the woman who, until a couple of years ago, was my biggest supporter and best friend, as "damaged goods". I may not reconcile , but I'm not going to forget 25 good years, and crucify her for 4 months of bad time.


Well played, Rookie


----------



## alte Dame

Now you're sounding like you may still love her or you think you may & that's a different calculation.

That requires lots of thought and consideration. Why not tell your family to back off while you give it some serious thought?


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You can't think about his as if you have equivalent guilt because you kissed a woman at a party many years ago. I assume it was a passionate kiss and wasn't something more innocent. But to equate that with what your wife did to you is nonsensical.
> 
> It comes down to what do you want? You said in several posts that you no longer love your wife and that you can never trust her again yet...I think in reality you still do love your wife. If you didn't love her, then I don't think you would have started this thread.
> 
> Based on what you posted, it sounds like you definitely came out ahead when it came to seeing other people. Granted she cheated on you with Brad and emasculated you with her affair. But since your separation and divorce, it sounds like you had more action with more women than she did with men. If you are keen on reconciliation, you can use the experiences you had as your "revenge affairs" - without the guilt since you were already divorced - so that the playing field is leveled. So in my mind the questions remaining are 1) can you trust her and 2) can you get over the fact that she emasculated you. One thing that MUST change is her temper and her verbal abuse. Do not accept it from her ever again.
> 
> Good luck in whatever you decide.


Plan 9, until right before Thanksgiving, I wasn't even considering reconciliation. I guess that it all boils down to 2 issues. 1. Should I consider R. 2. Is it even possible? She has done a LOT to prove she has changed. I know that she isn't seeing Brad or anybody else, because she could not hide it from her Mom, or room-mate or sister, and they would tell me the truth, regardless. She doesn't blame me for her affair , but for my part in allowing the marriage to go bad. If that makes any sense. I'm really hung up on the sexual comparisons, but she has repeatedly said that it was NOT true and was done to hurt my feelings, but how can I be sure that is the truth? I would really like to hear from people who have been in my situation and successfully overcame these issues. Both cheaters and those cheated on. I want to know if it's possible and how they did it. Their explanations and reasoning.


----------



## aug

Rookie4 said:


> 6, Whatever happens, I would NEVER characterize the woman I have spent 1/2 my life with, the mother of my 3 children, and the woman who, until a couple of years ago, was my biggest supporter and best friend, as "damaged goods". I may not reconcile , but I'm not going to forget 25 good years, and *crucify her for 4 months of bad time.*



How many months of bad time would you need in order to do so?


----------



## Rookie4

Yes, Plan 9, I loved my wife very, very, very much.


----------



## warlock07

old timer said:


> *Rookie4:* There are very few "innocents" in this world, IMO.


Is that how you excused cheating for 5 years ?

Look, just because he forgave her doesn't mean he should get back with her. She took a bet and that did not workout..When he confronted her about it, she tried to humiliate him on how less of a man he is compared to her lover. Now she wants him back because the other relationship failed. Her family and kids look down on her and her H is happily moved on.. Even now, she blames him for her cheating. 

Imagine him getting back with her for a night and them dumping her again because she is too loose down there and rubbing the insult in her face. That is what she did essentially when the affair was outed.


OP, do you like her ? Do you think you can respect her again ?


----------



## Rookie4

FRom the moment I was certain she was having an affair until our divorce was final, I was in a very bad place. I don't know how I was able to compartmentise enogh to be able to even work. The anger, disillusionment and shame were with me ever single moment of every day. It was worsae than anything I ever saw in Combat, but I thank God for my military training which allowed me to concentrate on the tasks at hand. During those months, she begged, pleaded, offered any proofs I would need to show she never meant what she said. Our families and friends repeatedly asked me to stop and "take a breather", and not make any irrevocable decisions, but the pain was too great . I wanted her to suffer, I wanted her to experience even a little of what I was going through. I wanted to figuratively rub her nose in the filth. I still don;t know how Love can change to hate so quickly.


----------



## warlock07

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You can't think about his as if you have equivalent guilt because you kissed a woman at a party many years ago. I assume it was a passionate kiss and wasn't something more innocent. But to equate that with what your wife did to you is nonsensical.
> 
> It comes down to what do you want? You said in several posts that you no longer love your wife and that you can never trust her again yet...I think in reality you still do love your wife. If you didn't love her, then I don't think you would have started this thread.
> 
> Based on what you posted, it sounds like you definitely came out ahead when it came to seeing other people. Granted she cheated on you with Brad and emasculated you with her affair. But since your separation and divorce, it sounds like you had more action with more women than she did with men. *If you are keen on reconciliation, you can use the experiences you had as your "revenge affairs" - without the guilt since you were already divorced - so that the playing field is leveled.* So in my mind the questions remaining are 1) can you trust her and 2) can you get over the fact that she emasculated you. One thing that MUST change is her temper and her verbal abuse. Do not accept it from her ever again.
> 
> Good luck in whatever you decide.




Bullsh!t!! They aren't revenge affairs and this is not a tit for ta thing...That is not how relationships work


----------



## warlock07

Rookie4 said:


> FRom the moment I was certain she was having an affair until our divorce was final, I was in a very bad place. I don't know how I was able to compartmentise enogh to be able to even work. The anger, disillusionment and shame were with me ever single moment of every day. It was worsae than anything I ever saw in Combat, but I thank God for my military training which allowed me to concentrate on the tasks at hand. During those months, she begged, pleaded, offered any proofs I would need to show she never meant what she said. Our families and friends repeatedly asked me to stop and "take a breather", and not make any irrevocable decisions, but the pain was too great . I wanted her to suffer, I wanted her to experience even a little of what I was going through. I wanted to figuratively rub her nose in the filth. I still don;t know how Love can change to hate so quickly.



How long after the confrontation did she offer to come back ? Why was her first reaction to getting caught is insult your manhood ? have you thought about it ? And this office source you have. who is she ?


----------



## husbandfool

As far as her sexual comparisons being aimed at hurting you ... that rings false to me. For example, why did she make the disparaging comments about you to her friend? You were not even there and only found out about them afterwards.
Sounds like she was sharing her real feelings with her friends.

She may have said some things in anger but, what she did was have a planned, protracted affair. One has to really think hard before throwing 25 years of marriage away ... to move out from your husband and then move in with someone else and live with him for weeks (or is it months?). This wasn't a "mistake". This was a long series of bad decisions that she made, in which your welfare was not considered at all. 

Additionally, did she think about how much all this would hurt your kids? Even though they are young adults, this must have been a traumatic event in their lives.

Now, before you decide to reconcile, consider this ... 
inevitably, there will be spats and arguments in the future. 
What if (when) she digs up Brad again and throws it in your face because she's mad at you? Could you handle that? Do you even want to be dealing with that the rest of your life.

It will always be a part of your marriage forever, moving forward. You will be seeing invisible "Brads" when you turn the lights out at night.











Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9, until right before Thanksgiving, I wasn't even considering reconciliation. I guess that it all boils down to 2 issues. 1. Should I consider R. 2. Is it even possible? She has done a LOT to prove she has changed. I know that she isn't seeing Brad or anybody else, because she could not hide it from her Mom, or room-mate or sister, and they would tell me the truth, regardless. She doesn't blame me for her affair , but for my part in allowing the marriage to go bad. If that makes any sense. I'm really hung up on the sexual comparisons, but she has repeatedly said that it was NOT true and was done to hurt my feelings, but how can I be sure that is the truth? I would really like to hear from people who have been in my situation and successfully overcame these issues. Both cheaters and those cheated on. I want to know if it's possible and how they did it. Their explanations and reasoning.


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> How long after the confrontation did she offer to come back ? Why was her first reaction to getting caught is insult your manhood ? have you thought about it ? And this office source you have. who is she ?


If your kids keep on pushing, they are adults, sigh tell them how your xw emasculated you and that's why r is off the table as uncomfortable as it is jmo.


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> How long after the confrontation did she offer to come back ? Why was her first reaction to getting caught is insult your manhood ? have you thought about it ? And this office source you have. who is she ?


The very next day, she called and asked if she could come home, but when she told me where she was, I told her to go to hell.


----------



## Rookie4

husbandfool said:


> As far as her sexual comparisons being aimed at hurting you ... that rings false to me. For example, why did she make the disparaging comments about you to her friend? You were not even there and only found out about them afterwards.
> Sounds like she was sharing her real feelings with her friends.
> 
> She may have said some things in anger but, what she did was have a planned, protracted affair. One has to really think hard before throwing 25 years of marriage away ... to move out from your husband and then move in with someone else and live with him for weeks (or is it months?). This wasn't a "mistake". This was a long series of bad decisions that she made, in which your welfare was not considered at all.
> 
> Additionally, did she think about how much all this would hurt your kids? Even though they are young adults, this must have been a traumatic event in their lives.
> 
> Now, before you decide to reconcile, consider this ...
> inevitably, there will be spats and arguments in the future.
> What if (when) she digs up Brad again and throws it in your face because she's mad at you? Could you handle that? Do you even want to be dealing with that the rest of your life.
> 
> It will always be a part of your marriage forever, moving forward. You will be seeing invisible "Brads" when you turn the lights out at night.


Husbandfool, she has always been like this. When she is angry she says whatever is most hurtful to the person she is angry with. She had a "road rage", incident a few years back and took court mandated anger management classes, but left as soon as she was able to. She is now in counseling for her issues. It's a situation where she has individual therapy and group "classes", every other week.


----------



## Rookie4

tom67 said:


> If your kids keep on pushing, they are adults, sigh tell them how your xw emasculated you and that's why r is off the table as uncomfortable as it is jmo.


She confessed to the kids all of what she said, Tom. That is why they are so angry with her.


----------



## Acabado

warlock07 said:


> Look, just because he forgave her doesn't mean he should get back with her. She took a bet and that did not workout..When he confronted her about it, she tried to humiliate him on how less of a man he is compared to her lover.


100% agreed with this.



> Now she wants him back because the other relationship failed.


Too simplistic. We can screwed up royally just asuming this it wrong. Pleople screws up things only to regret later. Can be possible another way?



> Even now, she blames him for her cheating.


I didn't read this in OP's posts.



> OP, do you like her ? Do you think you can respect her again ?


That's the real question here. The rest are distractions.


----------



## tom67

Rookie4 said:


> She confessed to the kids all of what she said, Tom. That is why they are so angry with her.


I guess I have to give her credit for a moment of clarity there.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Husbandfool, she has always been like this. When she is angry she says whatever is most hurtful to the person she is angry with. She had a "road rage", incident a few years back and *took court mandated anger management classes, but left as soon as she was able to. She is now in counseling for her issues. It's a situation where she has individual therapy and group "classes", every other week*.


That was I was asking about. Those are measurable, real changes. Actions taken. Far away from D. Even if R is out of the table she's doing it right. Happy for her.


----------



## CH

Rookie as a man almost no man could get over that comparison. You could stay but it's going to screw with your head and maybe even mess you up so badly that it'll affect your sex life with your wife.

Some men can live with it, some men thrive on it and some men will never be able to get it out of their heads. She gave way too much detail and I'm pretty sure she was pretty smug when she told you, with that little smirk on her face.

At this moment, I don't think you're ready to get back with her. Not until you can decide I don't care if the other man is bigger or better as she states. If you can't do that, time to move on or just be in the marriage for your kids and nothing else.


----------



## Acabado

I don't see a Plan B scenario here. I see a woman who screwed up and regret it deeply.

Self exposure, church, IC, beeeing chance next day, defogged on her own (dumped "huge d1ck" OM when BH already tell her he was done, went back to ILs)...

They are actually all good signs.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> 100% agreed with this.
> 
> Too simplistic. We can screwed up royally just suming this. Pleople screws up things only to regret later. Can be possible another way?
> 
> I didn't read this in OP's posts.
> 
> That's the real question here. The rest are distractions.


Acabado, these are some of the questiosn I need to get answered. I am feeling a lot of pressure , lately, and think I'm at a crossroads. I can either give her a chance to prove that what she says NOW is the truth but what she said THEN wasn't. Or I can turn my back on her and stay with my new GF. How will I know which way to turn, without being absolutely sure that my decision is the right one? It isn't as if I have been making a lot of good decisions as a result of this or anything. My ex wife, as far as I know, as not evaded her responsibility or "trickle truthed", or attempted to decieve me since the affair was found out. I guess that if truth be told, I probably should have held off on the divorce until the dust had settled, but I was crazy angry and shamed to listen to any calming suggestions.


----------



## Numbersixxx

Acabado said:


> I don't see a Plan B scenario here. I see a woman who screwed up and regret it deeply.
> 
> Self exposure, church, IC, beeeing chance next day, defogged on her own (dumped "huge d1ck" OM when BH already tell her he was done, went back to ILs)...
> 
> They are actually all good signs.


She went to her boyfriend Brad after her exposure. Most likely he wanted noting to do with her except having sex (surprise) and that is why she regret it deeply.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

warlock07 said:


> Bullsh!t!! They aren't revenge affairs and this is not a tit for ta thing...That is not how relationships work


I agree with you if you are referring to unconditional love. However, marriages are not built upon unconditional love. We each have conditions that our spouses need to follow in order to receive our love. In most cases, these conditions are based upon showing respect, care, affection, not cheating and other things important to a good marriage. IMO, there is also a certain degree of equality that is supposed to be maintained through these conditions so that the life experiences are shared. I don't know your story as it relates to infidelity, but from what I can gather from here and my own thoughts are that having sex with someone outside of your marriage introduces a significant amount of inequality into the relationship. The BS does typically have feelings about how their WS sampled others sexually while he/she remained faithful. Resentment builds over this. Since the divorce, the OP has been able to level the playing field by being able to experience other women while his wife allegedly pines for him. IDK, but that sounds like a measure of retribution that the OP was able to get out of this. I know there is pressure on him to take his wife back, but imagine how much more pressure is no her that she is basically on "lock down" by her family while the OP can move on with other women.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> She doesn't blame me for her affair , but *for my part in allowing the marriage to go bad*. If that makes any sense.


Makes sense. This is the right frame of mind. Not shifting the blame as another poster suggested.


> I would really like to hear from people who have been in my situation and successfully overcame these issues. Both cheaters and those cheated on. I want to know if it's possible and how they did it. Their explanations and reasoning.


Home some posters can share their reconciliations stories (I might do it later, now I must go) but keep reading. There's a ton of poeple reconciling. Stories way worse than yours.
I'm reconciled with my wife, BTW. And very happy three years after DDay.

It's possible. It just takes remorse (I believe there's is) and capacity of forgiveness. Can you?


----------



## Acabado

Numbersixxx said:


> She went to her boyfriend Brad after her exposure. Most likely he wanted noting to do with her except having sex (surprise) and *that is why she regret it deeply*.


Again too simplistic nad making asumptions. And even it was this way for a while it doesn't mean she later saw how wrong she was, regardless what helped her realize.
Thing is I really don't know a thing about her, I'm taking into acount what's teeling us OP. Her steps are *very good signs*. It doesn't mean he has to give her another chance. But you only can regret after screwing up. If for someone it means too late it's fine too,


----------



## Numbersixxx

Acabado said:


> Again too simplistic nad making asumptions. And even it was this way for a while it doesn't mean she later saw how wrong she was, regardless what helped her realize.
> Thing is I really don't know a thing about her, I'm taking into acount what's teeling us OP. Her steps are *very good signs*. It doesn't mean he has to give her another chance. But you only can regret after screwing up. If for someone it means too late it's fine too,


Yeah, well... I am just telling it like I see it. Sure, I may be wrong and she actually achieved enlightenment the next day.


----------



## CH

Rookie, you still haven't answered the million dollar question, can you get over what she's said to you?

If not sure or no then talking R is a waste of time right now. You'll go into it out of love for the wife you know, not the wife you have right now. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance if they can realize the mistake they've made but not everyone is given a 2nd chance.

There is no being fair in life. You screw up and sometimes you pay for it. If at the current time you cannot get over what's been said to you, I would suggest going through with the divorce. Still takes 6 months?? (depending on where you live) to finalize. In that time, maybe things will change, maybe you'll be able to forgive and forget enough to stay with her.

BTW you don't have to answer that question to us, that's a question you need to answer for yourself.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I'm all for R under the right conditions and for the right reasons

I'm not sure either exist currently even with the apparent transparency and willingness of your ex.

and bear in mind that you would not be returning to the pre-affair 25 year marriage that was so comfortable, you're in for YEARS of rebuilding and *creating* a new marriage. Think about how long it took to recover (if you even fully healed) when you divorced. Now multiply that by a few factors as the person who betrayed you is right in front of you reminding you every day of the betrayal. 

Some of us can do that, I did. I can say it worth it in the long run, but I don't think you currently have the proper foundation. It takes a strong desire on both ends and I don't see the desire coming from you other than a feeling of obligation to family and church.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Makes sense. This is the right frame of mind. Not shifting the blame as another poster suggested.
> Home some posters can share their reconciliations stories (I might do it later, now I must go) but keep reading. There's a ton of poeple reconciling. Stories way worse than yours.
> I'm reconciled with my wife, BTW. And very happy three years after DDay.
> 
> It's possible. It just takes remorse (I believe there's is) and capacity of forgiveness. Can you?


I don't know, I really don't. What Chesatinghubby said is true in that respect. The sexul comparison is a HUGE stumbbling block, and I don't know how anybody overcomes it. She has said a thousand times that our sex was the best she's ever had, and says that she knew it , even then, but that she was so infatuated by Brad and our sex life had gone from several times a week to once or twice a month, that she felt our marriage was just a sham.


----------



## seasalt

I'm not sure just how much contact you have with her at present but consider the following - Are you happier when you are in her presence? or conversely but just as determinative, are you more unhappy with her than without her?

Your children shouldn't dictate your feelings especially when they are already adults.

Think hard everyone deserves to be happy.


----------



## Almostrecovered

At best, the only thing I could even see as being worthwhile if you truly think you can do it is to go on a few no pressure dates (aka no sex) and then make a decision later down the line. (and be very upfront that this is NOT a commitment of any sort) Only if you are currently seeing someone else right now, then I say to not even bother


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> It isn't as if I have been making a lot of good decisions as a result of this or anything.


So you went on your own hell of screwing up things for you. Natural. Not healthy but natural. You can change it with or without her. It's seems even you are "fine" with your GF a part of you think you can be "happier" with XW.


> My ex wife, as far as I know, as not evaded her responsibility or "trickle truthed", or attempted to decieve me since the affair was found out.


Great. Very good sigh. The more I read the more convinced I am she's genuinely remorseful.


> I guess that if truth be told, I probably should have held off on the divorce until the dust had settled, but I was crazy angry and shamed to listen to any calming suggestions.


Similar response to her... don't you think? You both guys are like fire. You can recant your actions the same way she did. There's NO SHAME in rethink our decisions.

Fighting the "chump factor" is just natural for every BS who decide to R. 

Man, at first I beleive you came here to get pushed towards moving on. I'm now sure you want asurance you are not an idiot for considering R.

Let me tell you: you are not. Period.

Let me tell you, many, many BSs here would give thier right arm for having a wayward like yours so they can reconcile with them. Just food for though. I'd wish posters would read carefully all OP's posts. You are not a "Just Found Out" poster. You already got divorced very quicky. Your wife is remorseful. I believe you not only "loved her" as you posted earlier. I believe you still love her. You want to know whether it's possible reconciling under this circunstances. It is. A remorseful wayward is the key and you have one. She's doing (for now) her part, what it takes.


----------



## Acabado

Almostrecovered said:


> Some of us can do that, I did. I can say it worth it in the long run, but I don't think you currently have the proper foundation. It takes a strong desire on both ends and *I don't see the desire coming from you other than a feeling of obligation to family and church*.


I'd add his reluctance to admit he decided too quickly and in anger. Public embarrasement to admit to many he didn't take the time to make life alreing decisions in the middle of the raw emotions.
And pride.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> I'm all for R under the right conditions and for the right reasons
> 
> I'm not sure either exist currently even with the apparent transparency and willingness of your ex.
> 
> and bear in mind that you would not be returning to the pre-affair 25 year marriage that was so comfortable, you're in for YEARS of rebuilding and *creating* a new marriage. Think about how long it took to recover (if you even fully healed) when you divorced. Now multiply that by a few factors as the person who betrayed you is right in front of you reminding you every day of the betrayal.
> 
> Some of us can do that, I did. I can say it worth it in the long run, but I don't think you currently have the proper foundation. It takes a strong desire on both ends and I don't see the desire coming from you other than a feeling of obligation to family and church.


I guess, I'm afraid to commit. Or more probably, I am not comfortable with the idea of R, without some long term proofs and the resolution of the trust and sex issues. I mean, I could and am fairly happy with the situation with my GF. She knows nothing about my situation other than that the basics. Kids, divorce, etc. She lives in another town and we get together on weekends to have sex and pal around. She is what they call on the dating sites , a friend with benefits. She wants more than that, but I just don't feel for her what I felt for my wife, pre-affair.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Rookie4 said:


> Acabado, these are some of the questiosn I need to get answered. I am feeling a lot of pressure , lately, and think I'm at a crossroads. I can either give her a chance to prove that what she says NOW is the truth but what she said THEN wasn't. Or I can turn my back on her and stay with my new GF. How will I know which way to turn, without being absolutely sure that my decision is the right one? It isn't as if I have been making a lot of good decisions as a result of this or anything. My ex wife, as far as I know, as not evaded her responsibility or "trickle truthed", or attempted to decieve me since the affair was found out. I guess that if truth be told, I probably should have held off on the divorce until the dust had settled, but I was crazy angry and shamed to listen to any calming suggestions.



What concerns me about your posts is how often you mention the pressure from your family to R. Your children are grown up. They are not in their formative years where a two-parent family is the ideal. Don't give in to pressure to R because that will make others happy. If you R do it for yourself, but NOT for the sake of your children, your parents or whomever else in your family. You seem like you're very susceptible to guilt trips from your family. 

You're the one left with mind movies, triggers, anger and sadness; not them. I have a friend who reconciled with her husband after his sexual affair. It happened early in the marriage when their two boys were young. He seemed so sincere and remorseful. Everything seemed fine. Ten years later, she finds out he has been cheating on her for the last five years. She finally divorced him. If you choose to R, you should look into protecting your assets with a prenup. Take care of you and look out for you. You come across as someone who is willing so subjugate himself for the sake of the others. 

Your ex-wife's words were very cruel words. Words that cut deep into your soul. And it was said purposely to wound you at your weakest point. She knew exactly what would hurt a faithful husband the most. She chose that option. She had other words she could have said. But she chose a deliberate kill point. There's a lot of anger and resentment behind her words as well as lack of empathy. If I were a man, I'm pretty certain I would not be able to get past words like "he was a better lover, bigger, blah blah."

It's good she is getting some anger management classes for herself. She needs it. Individual Counseling is a good idea too. She should do all these things _for herself_; not with the expectation these things will bring you back. If she's doing these with the hope of bringing you back then her motivation is all wrong and it's an attempt at manipulating you.

Just because you care about her and want her to improve herself so that she is a better person does NOT mean you have to take her back. You have 25 years of history with her. You obviously want her to be balanced and reasonable. That's fine and very understandable. You can forgive her without taking her back. Forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. I think forgiveness is something one does for one's own mental wellbeing. Reconciliation is a whole 'nother ball game. However, you also have every right to protect yourself from future harm by her by not R. Don't let anyone make you feel like you should do it. Live your life for yourself. You've earned that.

There's a man here whose thread you might want to read. His posting name is oldmittens. He's an TAM friend of mine. His wife had an affair, said some very cruel words to him just like you experienced, he had enormous pressure from his family to reconcile. Unlike you, he has daughters who are very young. He tried to reconcile, but couldn't get past it. He divorced. He is doing a lot better now. His thread is the Private section of this forum.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know, I really don't. What Chesatinghubby said is true in that respect. The sexul comparison is a HUGE stumbbling block, and I don't know how anybody overcomes it. She has said a thousand times that our sex was the best she's ever had, and says that she knew it , even then, but that she was so infatuated by Brad and our sex life had gone from several times a week to once or twice a month, that she felt our marriage was just a sham.


Sex is in the brain. Do you remember when you were infatuated? All was new? Those first times? Best sex ever.
Then add ilicitness, secrecy...

What she did? Dump the OM, even when she didn't need to. Suddenly "huge ****" wasn't "that big", sex wasn't that good. New toy lost the grip. Geez, she called you from his place to let you her come back!
:scratchhead:

Man, you are better equipped than most. She pushed the right bottoms, as she used to do. She got legal isses out of it!!
I's likely there's absoltly no fond memories of OM.


----------



## Rookie4

Ok, I have a confession to make. After our blowup and the revealing of her affair, I went totally nuts. I had sex with not just a couple of women. I had sex with any woman I could. At least 15 or 20 or more. Except for my GF and one or two others, I treated them all like *****s. I sometimes had sex with two or three on the same day. I am really ashamed about this. I could have ****ed a thousand and it wouldn't have made me feel any better.


----------



## costa200

This thread reminds me to call my old folk. Got to love them because i'm pretty sure they would not, in a million years, get on my case trying to get me to forgive this sort of horrible crap. Thanks dad and mum!

After that whole emasculating scene i wouldn't even want to touch that woman again, even just for a free quick sex romp. And that, for me, is saying a lot. 

I would, however, enjoy parading women around in her face. That whole Christian forgiveness thing is totally overrated.


----------



## Almostrecovered

what I don't get here is that you go on about Christian values yet admit nailing 20 women out of love and marriage, in a callous manner to boot

if these Christian values of forgiveness were so important to you I would think you have behaved differently


----------



## Rookie4

Coffee Amore said:


> What concerns me about your posts is how often you mention the pressure from your family to R. Your children are grown up. They are not in their formative years where a two-parent family is the ideal. Don't give in to pressure to R because that will make others happy. If you R do it for yourself, but NOT for the sake of your children, your parents or whomever else in your family. You seem like you're very susceptible to guilt trips from your family.
> 
> You're the one left with mind movies, triggers, anger and sadness; not them. I have a friend who reconciled with her husband after his sexual affair. It happened early in the marriage when their two boys were young. He seemed so sincere and remorseful. Everything seemed fine. Ten years later, she finds out he has been cheating on her for the last five years. She finally divorced him. If you choose to R, you should look into protecting your assets with a prenup. Take care of you and look out for you. You come across as someone who is willing so subjugate himself for the sake of the others.
> 
> Your ex-wife's words were very cruel words. Words that cut deep into your soul. And it was said purposely to wound you at your weakest point. She knew exactly what would hurt a faithful husband the most. She chose that option. She had other words she could have said. But she chose a deliberate kill point. There's a lot of anger and resentment behind her words as well as lack of empathy. If I were a man, I'm pretty certain I would not be able to get past words like "he was a better lover, bigger, blah blah."
> 
> It's good she is getting some anger management classes for herself. She needs it. Individual Counseling is a good idea too. She should do all these things _for herself_; not with the expectation these things will bring you back. If she's doing these with the hope of bring you back then her motivation is all wrong and it's an attempt at manipulating you.
> 
> Just because you care about her and want her to improve herself so that she is a better person does NOT mean you have to take her back. You have 25 years of history with her. You obviously want her to be balanced and reasonable. That's fine and very understandable. You can forgive her without taking her back. Forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. I think forgiveness is something one does for one's own mental wellbeing. Reconciliation is a whole 'nother ball game. However, you also have every right to protect yourself from future harm by her by not R. Don't let anyone make you feel like you should do it. Live your life for yourself. You've earned that.
> 
> There's a man here whose thread you might want to read. His posting name is oldmittens. He's an MFP friend of mine. His wife had an affair, said some very cruel words to him just like you experienced, he had enormous pressure from his family to reconcile. Unlike you, he has daughters who are very young. He tried to reconcile, but couldn't get past it. He divorced. He is doing a lot better now. His thread is the Private section of this forum.


Thank you for your thoughts, I will look for "OldMittens", and read his story.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> what I don't get here is that you go on about Christian values yet admit nailing 20 women out of love and marriage, in a callous manner to boot
> 
> if these Christian values of forgiveness were so important to you I would think you have behaved differently


My wife and both families are Christian, I'm more an agnostic. Look, I take no pleasure in remembering how I was last year. I did and said a LOT of things I regret, to family and friends who were just trying to help..


----------



## the guy

I can see those sexual comments hit a nerve, hell it would any guy, but I'm thinking 7.5" is not bad and as far as love making goes I think just like in the typical script the wayward rewrites history and villifies the betrayed and in this case your ex wife used sex to villify you.

How often to we hear on this sight about guys being told about how the OM by more attention or this and that with regards to hwo much better the OM is compared to the betrayed husband so as to justify the affair some way.

I'm thinking its the same thing and some times you just can't take those words back.

I also think ex wife would have said anything to justify her affair and it has nothing to do with your game or your size. It was about pissing you off to show to her self...in her mind that the affair was justifies.

So here you are a year or so later and those words still haunt you, and rightfully so. I think you should really take alot of time to think it over but in the same breath I would spend the holidays with her and the families, just to see how the both of you handle that big @ss elephent in the room. It may solidify something for you.

I think, let the holidays be the defining moment in were this all goes. The both of you may find it was best to stay divorced...you may not.


----------



## the guy

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, I have a confession to make. After our blowup and the revealing of her affair, I went totally nuts. I had sex with not just a couple of women. I had sex with any woman I could. At least 15 or 20 or more. Except for my GF and one or two others, I treated them all like *****s. I sometimes had sex with two or three on the same day. I am really ashamed about this. I could have ****ed a thousand and it wouldn't have made me feel any better.


Sir it appears you very much have game, for the life of me I can't figure out why you are hung up about your wifes comments? Apperently her words are not correct and in fact they were a big lie.


----------



## Rookie4

costa200 said:


> This thread reminds me to call my old folk. Got to love them because i'm pretty sure they would not, in a million years, get on my case trying to get me to forgive this sort of horrible crap. Thanks dad and mum!
> 
> After that whole emasculating scene i wouldn't even want to touch that woman again, even just for a free quick sex romp. And that, for me, is saying a lot.
> 
> I would, however, enjoy parading women around in her face. That whole Christian forgiveness thing is totally overrated.


The problem is that these women have feelings too, but I was too angry to care, and for that I am sorry.


----------



## GTdad

the guy said:


> Sir it appears you very much have game, for the life of me I can't figure out why you are hung up about your wifes comments? Apperently her words are not correct and in fact they were a big lie.


I'm sure they were lies as well. But that fact doesn't make them any more forgiveable in my book. Maybe even less so, given the calculation required to hurt Rookie as much as she possibly could.

My vote would be for Rookie to move on with his life. Sounds like he has a great life in front of him.


----------



## Rookie4

the guy said:


> Sir it appears you very much have game, for the life of me I can't figure out why you are hung up about your wifes comments? Apperently her words are not correct and in fact they were a big lie.


This is what I've come to believe too, but it doesn't make it any easier to remember those hateful words, and wonder how much she believed them at the time. did that make any sense?


----------



## the guy

Rookie4 said:


> This is what I've come to believe too, but it doesn't make it any easier to remember those hateful words, and wonder how much she believed them at the time. did that make any sense?


Ya it did.

Forgivness is a b1tch.

If you can't truely forgive her then don't even try to make your family happy by spending the holidays, it might just end up in one big fight.

She may be owning her affair now but forgiveness is something that has to be in place first, for this to even work. I think you need more time.


----------



## costa200

Rookie4 said:


> The problem is that these women have feelings too, but I was too angry to care, and for that I am sorry.


Yeah, we got it, you were not yourself and there was "collateral damage".


----------



## Rookie4

Well, I have pretty much promised the kids we could do Christmas like in the past. Last years holidays sucked . We had two Thanksgivings, one at my parents and one at hers. When we sat down to eat, my daughter began to sing. We always had a tradition that before we ate we would sing, "We gather together to ask the Lord's blessings". There wasn't a dry eye in the house, this year.


----------



## happyman64

Hey Rookie

I am going to give you my input.

You are still very badly hurt by what your wife said to you 2 years ago.

And even though you know her to be loud, dramatic and horrible at anger management you are still haunted by her words.

Worse, your reactions were to go out and bang a lot of chicks as revenge sex.

Where did that get you? Nowhere. You feel worse!

If that does not tell you that your mind is your worst enemy then have someone get a 2x4 and hit you over the head.

There would only be one right reason to Reconcile with your Exwife.

You still love her!

And that is the one thing in your thread you have not clearly stated.

You keep admitting more issues on both your sides but you never say you still love her. And yet, you sound like you do but you are too afraid to let down the walls you have put to protect yourself.

*So answer the question straight out: Do you still love your exwife?

It can only be a yes or no answer.*

If it yes then you have to decide is your love strong enough to lower the walls, re-engage with her and have a frank honest discussion with her. You probably should do it with a counselor present to keep you two on track. You both have to decide if you truly are willing to Reconcile and can you both do it without any reservations or hang ups. 

If it is no, then you tell her you cannot trust her or love her enough to willingly reconcile with her.

If you are not strong enough to do it, to be able to ever trust her again there is no weakness in telling her that. And telling your families that as well.

Reconciliation takes a lot work. Each thread that you see others going through R is different. What works for one couple will not work for others.

And I will also add that D is not always the answer. Sometimes it is necessary when our wayward spouses are not remorseful. Sometimes a Battered Spouse just needs revenge or to hurt the wayward (make them pay!) back so they continue the D. Others look at D as a tool to "kill" off the wayward or marriage.

But many that Divorce quickly wish they hadn't rushed to divorce. This is discussed on a few forums by both battered and wayward spouses.

So think hard. Think deep.

Many of us wish we had remorseful spouses. That may not mean we should stay with them or remarry them.

Why? Because that takes an awful lot of courage, perception, trust and love. Some have it, some do not.

But if you choose that route remember this:

It takes two to commit to an honest R.
It takes both of you to do the heavy lifting.
And even if the wayward is remorseful, the battered spouse not only has to forgive the wayward but they will need to forgive themselves. That means no more slinging sh!t at her if you want the R to be successful. You will truly have to forgive her. That takes both of You to do that.

And since you are being honest, you really need to be honest with your GF. Because if you do not have the feelings for her that you did for your wife you have to realize you will need to let her know that.

And just the fact that you are considering reconciliation you need to let your GF know that as well.

So again I ask, Do you love your wife???

HM64

PS 
Tell your parents and her parents to buzz off. It's your decision and only your decision.
And 25 good years does merit some consideration if your ExW is remorseful and you still love her.


----------



## Kasler

It just sounds like you're trying to find any validation taking her back. 

You know its a mistake, but do what you will.


----------



## warlock07

Are you on talking terms?


----------



## alte Dame

happyman64 said:


> Hey Rookie
> 
> I am going to give my input.
> 
> You are still very badly hurt by what your wife said to you.
> 
> And even though you know her to be loud, dramatic and horrible at anger management you are still haunted by her words.
> 
> Worse, your reactions were to go out and bang a lot of chicks as revenge sex.
> 
> Where did that get you? You feel worse!
> 
> If that does not tell you that your mind is your worse enemy then have someone get a 2x4 and hit you ver the head.
> 
> There would only be one right reason to Reconcile with your Exwife.
> 
> You still love her!
> 
> And that is the one thing in your thread you have not clearly stated.
> 
> You keep admitting more issues on both your sides but you never say you still love her. And yet, you sound like you do but you are too afraid to let down the walls you have put to protect yourself.
> 
> So answer the question straight out: Do you still love your exwife?
> 
> It can only be a yes or no answer.
> 
> If it yes then you have to decide is it strong enough to lower the walls, re-engage with her and have a frank honest discussion with her. You probably should do it with a counselor present to keep you two on track. You both have to decide if you truly are willing to Reconcile and can you both do it without any reservations or hang ups.
> 
> If it is no, then you tell her you cannot trust her or love her enough to willingly reconcile with her.
> 
> If you are not strong enough to do it, to be able to ever trust her again there is no weakness in telling her that. And telling your families that as well.
> 
> Reconciliation takes a lot work. Each thread that you see others going through R is different. What works for one couple will not work for others.
> 
> And I will also add that D is not always the answer. Sometimes it is necessary when our wayward spouses are not remorseful. Sometimes a Battered Spouse just needs revenge or to hurt back so they continue the D. Others look at D as a tool to "kill" off the wayward or marriage.
> 
> So think hard. Think deep.
> 
> Many of us wish we had remorseful spouses. That may not mean we should stay with them or remarry them.
> 
> Why? Because that takes an awful lot of courage, perception, trust and love. Some have it, some do not.
> 
> But if you choose that route remember this:
> 
> It takes two to commit to an honest R.
> It takes both of you to do the heavy lifting.
> And even if the wayward is remorseful, the battered spouse not only has to forgive the wayward but they will need to forgive themselves. That means no more slinging sh!t at her if you want the R to be successful. You will truly have to forgive her. That takes both of You to do that.
> 
> And since you are being honest, you really need to be honest with your GF. Because if you do not have the feelings for her that you did for your wife you have to realize you will need to let her know that.
> 
> And just the fact that you are considering reconciliation you need to let your GF know that as well.
> 
> So again I ask, Do you love your wife???
> 
> HM64
> 
> PS
> Tell your parents and her parents to buzz off. It your decision and only your decision.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, I have a confession to make. After our blowup and the revealing of her affair, I went totally nuts. I had sex with not just a couple of women. I had sex with any woman I could. At least 15 or 20 or more. Except for my GF and one or two others, I treated them all like *****s. I sometimes had sex with two or three on the same day. I am really ashamed about this. I could have ****ed a thousand and it wouldn't have made me feel any better.


You have learned that a revenge affair does not help.

You can also learn how to recover from an affair. Get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley.

Your WW has ended her affair.

People that you can trust have been able to verify that there has been NC with the OM outside of work. Also that WW has not been dating anyone else.

You miss WW and what you had with her. Your new GF's have not been able to provide what you had with WW.

25 years history, your kids, parents need their family back together again.

All of the above are good reasons to try again with your WW.

You should get that book SAA. Tell your WW that you want the both of you to read that book together.

Also tell WW that she must give up her job where she is because the OM still works there and you need to know that NC will be 100%. There can not be any accidental sightings or passing in the hall ways or cafeteria or parking lot.

That WW must live transparent so you can verify NC forever. So WW gives you access to her cell, cell bill, email, etc.

You have the start to making of a good recovery.

As to her liking sex better with the OM. It could of been better. WW could of just said it was better to just hurt you. Both statements have an equal shot to be the truth.

Thing is when she saw that you were going to divorce her, WW had no problem dumping the OM to keep you instead. To me that speaks volumes that your WW valued what you had to offer more then the OM.

It is easy as so many others do here and say dump the bee-itch. They don't have 25 years of history with your WW as you do.

Also you seem to be better of with WW then without WW.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Does your wife and families know that you had sex with 15-20 women as revenge for what your wife did? This definitely changes things IMO. What your wife did was heinous, deceitful and cruel. However, banging all of those women didn't exactly work out in the end. First, you ceded your moral high ground. You are now no better than she is. You wiped your marital vows with your ass just like she did. 

If your family knows the "bender" you went on after your found out about your wife's affair - and prior to the divorce - it makes a lot more sense why they think it's time for the 2 of you to get back together. After you extracted your pound of flesh for payment, they probably feel that the two of you are even and now should forgive each other and move on. If your family does not know about your escapades, then I guess they wouldn't be as sympathetic to you, would they?

I will say this. If you two ever do get back together, I'd be shocked if your wife ever cheated on you again. Sure, she had the affair with Brad (any others?), but I think you paid her back and then heaped a whole bit more on top for extra measure. Clearly, you have higher sex appeal to women than your wife does with men. She now knows this and I think knows her place and how you'll react if she ever cheats on you again. WOW!


----------



## Acabado

happyman64 said:


> Hey Rookie
> 
> I am going to give my input.
> 
> You are still very badly hurt by what your wife said to you.
> 
> And even though you know her to be loud, dramatic and horrible at anger management you are still haunted by her words.
> 
> Worse, your reactions were to go out and bang a lot of chicks as revenge sex.
> 
> Where did that get you? You feel worse!
> 
> If that does not tell you that your mind is your worse enemy then have someone get a 2x4 and hit you ver the head.
> 
> There would only be one right reason to Reconcile with your Exwife.
> 
> You still love her!
> 
> And that is the one thing in your thread you have not clearly stated.
> 
> You keep admitting more issues on both your sides but you never say you still love her. And yet, you sound like you do but you are too afraid to let down the walls you have put to protect yourself.
> 
> So answer the question straight out: Do you still love your exwife?
> 
> It can only be a yes or no answer.
> 
> If it yes then you have to decide is it strong enough to lower the walls, re-engage with her and have a frank honest discussion with her. You probably should do it with a counselor present to keep you two on track. You both have to decide if you truly are willing to Reconcile and can you both do it without any reservations or hang ups.
> 
> If it is no, then you tell her you cannot trust her or love her enough to willingly reconcile with her.
> 
> If you are not strong enough to do it, to be able to ever trust her again there is no weakness in telling her that. And telling your families that as well.
> 
> Reconciliation takes a lot work. Each thread that you see others going through R is different. What works for one couple will not work for others.
> 
> And I will also add that D is not always the answer. Sometimes it is necessary when our wayward spouses are not remorseful. Sometimes a Battered Spouse just needs revenge or to hurt back so they continue the D. Others look at D as a tool to "kill" off the wayward or marriage.
> 
> So think hard. Think deep.
> 
> Many of us wish we had remorseful spouses. That may not mean we should stay with them or remarry them.
> 
> Why? Because that takes an awful lot of courage, perception, trust and love. Some have it, some do not.
> 
> But if you choose that route remember this:
> 
> It takes two to commit to an honest R.
> It takes both of you to do the heavy lifting.
> And even if the wayward is remorseful, the battered spouse not only has to forgive the wayward but they will need to forgive themselves. That means no more slinging sh!t at her if you want the R to be successful. You will truly have to forgive her. That takes both of You to do that.
> 
> And since you are being honest, you really need to be honest with your GF. Because if you do not have the feelings for her that you did for your wife you have to realize you will need to let her know that.
> 
> And just the fact that you are considering reconciliation you need to let your GF know that as well.
> 
> So again I ask, *Do you love your wife???*
> 
> HM64
> 
> PS
> Tell your parents and her parents to buzz off. It your decision and only your decision.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Pure gold.

It's obvious you felt emasculated nad tried to regain your manhood banging every skirt at hand. Very common. Not that bad in my book. Only you realized it doesn't work this way. Do you feel now more a man?

Please, don't get me wrong with the following but in this i'm with the_guy. You, and others seem soooo focused in your XW's words... what about the affair itself? It's what really matters. I've heard a couple of times the "small ****"/horrible lover speech after the "break up" when I was single (I was somehow a player then). I laughed my a$$ off. I don't give a rat about it. Honestly. Forgive me but I find this kind of venom so childish.
May I ask.. was you her only? If so I can understand is another factor, I'd call it the tainted virgin issue. If not... she surely has met d!cks of every size and form. It's bull. My was was not better than me before we met. I'm sure she enjoyed all kinds of aparatus. All kind of lovers.
You know damm well she told you this to push your bottoms, to piss you off. That's what she does (seems working on it) but man, really what if OM was X or Y or Z? This is no the issue. 
The issue is she cheated on you. The betrayal. her betrayal doesn't make you less of a man.
And BTW, OM was a douche capable to mess with a middle aged married woman with low selfsteem. That's what really matters about OM. I don't give a rat about OM's **** size.

I've been thinking on something... you are sick of sex NSA, you fell bad for "using" those girls, you are sick of FBWs... but you can't commit to GF, because she's not XW. I think is GF's demands of commitment what triggered your current doubts, rather than family pressure (it pushes you further away) becasue you don't love GF.

Read carefuly happyman64's posts because is gold.

I'll add only a small piece. Do you see yourself having sex with XW again? I'm pretty sure she'd smell a rat once she discover how old dogs can learn new tricks. Is there an female equivalent to "emasculation"?


----------



## Rookie4

Warlock, we have been on speaking terms for a while now, but right after the "blow-up", I didn't speak to or see her for several months. We communicated via family, friends and lawyers. She finally persuaded me to talk to her about family matters. Kids, college, finances , etc. Since that time we have been cordial, but I usually am very reserved around her.


----------



## Rookie4

Happyman, Acabado and every one. Most of you are asking the same question I ask myself. Do I still love my ex-wife? It just isn't that easy to answer.
A couple of things. I have always been an open and straightforward type of person. Now I find myself being guarded, aloof and very reserved around most people.
The second thing happened right after the divorce was final. She came over to the house to get the remainder of her things, and we began to sort out the family photos and mementos. We were sitting on the floor and she began to cry, not silent tears but sobs and wails. She kept saying she was so , so sorry for what she did to me, how she thought about me all of the time and longed for me every night. She begged , on her knees for another chance. I was shocked beyond description. I did not know what to do, so I left the house. when I came back she was gone. 
I, simply put, am so afraid to commit, to leave myself vulnerable, that it gives me the willies.


----------



## Acabado

That was to be really hard. After D was final.
Just posted an answer to your post in R thread.


----------



## SadandAngry

This thread makes me mad. How much is too much? How much sh!t are you supposed to take? She threw away everything for nothing, absolutely nothing. When she left on d day she could have gone anywhere, but no, she chose POSOM. Too much I say, too much. All she had to do in that 4 months was to think once about the consequences. To think about what the 25 years was all about. The fact that she chose POSOM says to me that she was too selfish and stupid to do that even once. Do you really want to expose your inner most self to that again, to make yourself vulnerable to someone that...that I don't know what to say...? I would not. And I chose R. I made it happen. I went up against the full bore fantasy and kicked the sh!t out of it. I don't think I'd even think about trying it for your wife. I'd stay away and find someone worthy. Based on what I've read.


----------



## happyman64

I do not agree S&A.

Every battered spouse has different limits, different tolerances to their waywards.

Obviously Rookie built some very high walls. Also, when his wife broke down after the divorce that can have a very traumatic effect on a man.

He hates her, hence the divorce. He feels bad for her, but cannot tolerate her remorsefulness so he compartmentalizes his hurt and anguish to protect his feelings from getting hurt again, hence the walls he protects himself with.

It is a double edged sword. It sucks. Why? Because Rookie is afraid to love again.

You know Rookie, the walls have to come down sooner or later. If not, you will never have a loving, satisfying relationship with any woman.

Love with anyone is always a gamble. But if you do not roll the dice and take the risk, you will never have a chance to win.

And everyone makes mistakes in our lives. Can you forgive her for those bad choices she made???

Have you forgiven yourself for the bad choices you have made???

Forgiveness works both ways my friend......

HM64


----------



## SadandAngry

happyman64 said:


> I do not agree S&A.
> 
> Every battered spouse has different limits, different tolerances to their waywards.
> 
> Obviously Rookie built some very high walls. Also, when his wife broke down after the divorce that can have a very traumatic effect on a man.
> 
> He hates her, hence the divorce. He feels bad for her, but cannot tolerate her remorsefulness so he compartmentalizes his hurt and anguish to protect his feelings from getting hurt again, hence the walls he protects himself with.
> 
> It is a double edged sword. It sucks. Why? Because Rookie is afraid to love again.
> 
> You know Rookie, the walls have to come down sooner or later. If not, you will never have a loving, satisfying relationship with any woman.
> 
> Love with anyone is always a gamble. But if you do not roll the dice and take the risk, you will never have a chance to win.
> 
> And everyone makes mistakes in our lives. Can you forgive her for those bad choices she made???
> 
> Have you forgiven yourself for the bad choices you have made???
> 
> Forgiveness works both ways my friend......
> 
> HM64


Yes, I'm clearly projecting here. There's been a few threads lately where the wayward makes it worse after confrontation. That irks me fiercely, to say the least. What's important here isn't what I think, nor you, but what the op thinks. He has to want R, and want it a lot, because you pay a heavy price inside to R. It isn't easy to reconcile acceptance and self respect.


----------



## happyman64

SadandAngry said:


> Yes, I'm clearly projecting here. There's been a few threads lately where the wayward makes it worse after confrontation. That irks me fiercely, to say the least. What's important here isn't what I think, nor you, but what the op thinks. He has to want R, and want it a lot, because you pay a heavy price inside to R. It isn't easy to reconcile acceptance and self respect.


Yes it does take a lot of work to R.

And both parties have to make the decision to respect each other going forward. And that is not easy to do in the beginning.

And you are right, it is Rookies decision.


----------



## DedicatedDad

Since you have relatives who are devout Christians and your ex-wayward wife claims to have seen the light and converted to Christianity, I'm gonna come at you from a spiritual angle.

First, what is impossible to man, is possible with God.
Second, If it is truly God's will for you to reconcile with your wife, he will give you a peace that surpasses all understanding. It's that crazy calm feeling you get, when no matter what the circumstances look like on the outside, there is something inside you that knows, that you know, that you know, that you know, this is the right thing to do, and then it just happens, there is no struggle within, there is no conflict, you just step right into the reconciliation because God has got your back and because God's grace is sufficient for you to put away the past and look to the future. In other words, If God wants you to reconcile with your wife, he isn't just going to tell her and her family about it, he's going to tell you about it and give you the peace and the grace you need to make it happen.

*On the other hand...*
If you're struggling with this decision, if you have no peace, if you get confused and walk out the door when your wife begs and pleads for another chance, that is a good indication that although reconciliation might sound like a good thing, it's not necessarily a God thing. When God is involved it just flows, when men try to make it happen, who knows?

I don't know if you're a spiritual man or not, but the entire book of Hosea is about a good man who marries a harlot (prostitute), but in the end, she cast aside her multiple lovers and returns to her husband. It's about how God is married to us and waits for us to put aside our love for the things of the world, repent and return our hearts to him. You might give it a read if you feel compelled to do so.

I didn't mean to get all religified on you, but I felt some conflict going on inside you, and I think you are having a tough time with some of this because you are starting to see some true remorse from your wife, and then there's that God thing that's going on in the background with her and the relatives. This is just to give you a different perspective and a little something extra to think about.

Ultimately, no one can tell you what to do or what's best for you, all we have are opinions and advice, the final decision on how to go forward in your life is up to you, the choice and the potential for happiness or more sadness is yours. If you're still not sure what to do and if you really wonder if reconciliation with your wife is God's will...here's a crazy thought...ask him.  

Take Care & God Bless


----------



## Rookie4

One of the things she told me recently was that after the blow-up, she drove around for hours trying to decide what to do. She called Brad and told him about the fight we had and that the affair was out in the open. He said she could stay with him, and she did , not having anywhere else to go. When she called asking to come home, she told me the truth that she was at his place. When I refused to let her come home, she was devestated. That was when she realized that their affair had to end, because she had no interest in a long-term relationship with him. Curious.


----------



## TBT

Why didn't she just go to her parents?


----------



## Rookie4

TBT said:


> Why didn't she just go to her parents?


I don't know, except she would have had to explain what was happening to them, which she didn't want to do. Or maybe she wanted to have sex with Brad.


----------



## TBT

Sounds like she just tried to minimize and downplay her choice.She had to know she was throwing gas on the fire by going there and she didn't care.


----------



## keko

The sad part is your kids asking for reconciliation while she's fvcking brad on the side. Apparently they're moral values are closer to their mom then dad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Malaise

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know, except she would have had to explain what was happening to them, which she didn't want to do. *Or maybe she wanted to have sex with Brad*.


Well, if she's out of your house she might as well keep doing Brad.

At that point, she thinks, why not?


----------



## Rookie4

keko said:


> The sad part is your kids asking for reconciliation while she's fvcking brad on the side. Apparently they're moral values are closer to their mom then dad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I beg your pardon? My children have the highest moral values. This post is insulting and completely un-called for. Never badmouth my kids, ever.


----------



## keko

Rookie4 said:


> I beg your pardon? My children have the highest moral values. This post is insulting and completely un-called for. Never badmouth my kids, ever.


I didn't insult nobody. Just stated the obvious. If you're not happy with the answers then don't ask the question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

keko said:


> I didn't insult nobody. Just stated the obvious. If you're not happy with the answers then don't ask the question.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would like to contact somebody in authority about this person


----------



## keko

Who?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

How serious can she be really? She still works with Brad for crying out loud, after more than a year. Cutting the infection out of her life is a pretty obvious step, and she hasn't done that. It shouldn't take that long to figure that out if one was motivated to reconcile.


----------



## Numbersixxx

keko said:


> Who?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The cyber-police.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Rookie4 said:


> One of the things she told me recently was that after the blow-up, she drove around for hours trying to decide what to do. She called Brad and told him about the fight we had and that the affair was out in the open. He said she could stay with him, and she did , not having anywhere else to go. When she called asking to come home, she told me the truth that she was at his place. When I refused to let her come home, she was devestated. That was when she realized that their affair had to end, because she had no interest in a long-term relationship with him. Curious.


Hold on. You may have missed my last comment, but after you found out about the affair, you told us that you went on a sex roller coaster with 15 - 20 women. How long did this go on for - from the time of discovery up through the divorce? From what I can tell, your wife stopped seeing Brad and was trying to win you back for 'X' number of months before the divorce. You still were able to hook up with more women since the divorce. Was your wife seeing other men since the divorce? 

What I'm driving at is that you did have revenge affairs when you slept with all of those women between D-day and up to the divorce. You've had more hook-ups since the divorce. I get it that you were emasculated by your wife. But the amount of women that you have bedded since - and I'm sure a few of them multiple times - you were validated many times over with your conquests. I'm sure more than a few of them raved about your love making skills to you and enjoyed your size too, right? 

The bottom line IMO is do you still love your wife and can you ever trust her? If you can answer yes to both then try to reconcile. If you say no to one or both, then don't. But you crying in your beer because your wife said someone was bigger and better than you starts to ring hollow when in all likelihood you've been given positive affirmations by 30+ women since the affair took place. Plus I think you got your revenge on your wife many times over with your success with other women.

Finally, does your wife know about all the women you slept with since the affair was discovered?


----------



## warlock07

I think you should have included a lot of details in your first post..While taking her back should be your decision, the way you presented the story is a little unfair to your wife..

Writing a timeline should have helped you get a better advice


----------



## aug

Is your wife still working with Brad? Does she still talk to Brad?

Is she still working in the same place?

Where's she living now? By herself or with Brad? 

Do you know if she cut all contacts with Brad?

What makes you think she is finished with Brad? Does she despite Brad now? Venomously?


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> I beg your pardon? My children have the highest moral values. This post is insulting and completely un-called for. Never badmouth my kids, ever.


I think Keiko misunderstands. I think he/she/it thought that was the case (as a cursory reading of the thread might suggest.)

I suspect no offence was intended.

--------------------



Now, as you know, it all comes back to what do you want?

You asked how it could go from love to hate so quickly. Easy question - love and hate are both strong emotions, and are like the two sides of a coin - it seems a long way to go round from one to the other, but it's no distance to go through the middle.
The opposite of love (and hate) is indifference.

The corrollory of the question you need to answer is: Are you indifferent to your ex-wife?

Your posts suggest not.

If you feel like going down the religious route, read James 13-5 - it might help. If you don't, then you're back to making a descison based on what's best for YOU. (Be assured, if you make a bad choice for you, it will be bad for everyone else too.)

As for what she said to you, you know it was a lie, right? I mean, really. And whilst new relationships are exciting (and clandistine ones have an extra frisson) nothing is better than sex in a loving, stable, trusting relationship.
(There are various things you can do to keep that 'excitement' - but that's for a different forum.)
So, what she said was calculated to hurt - it was a weapon, and I suspect she used it because she was scared, angry (probably with herself) and being very, very stupid. And self-justifying, probably whilst knowing it was wrong. You know that in moments of high drama she will say whatever is the most hurtful thing she can think of.
So, the issue isn't really what she said, but that she was trying to hurt you when she said it. Can you deal with that?

I believe the remorse and repentance can be real. If you do want (or want to consider if you want) to reconcile, you might want to thin about what might convince you that she's honest.

Are you happy with where you are now? I get the impression that you're not. What would make you happy?
Do you want a loving relationship? Entering into one is always a risk - it involves lowering emotional barriers and making yourself vulnerable. You know what sort of relationship you can have with this woman - is it worth the risk? (Given what she's been through as a result of her bad choices before, has she learned from it? Do you think she's less likely to do it again?)

Ignore what your family want - immediate and extended. They're not relevant in this. What you want, and - yes - what she wants are. If she truely wants to reconcile, and you do too, then you can. Your choice.

Good luck with this.

Rags


----------



## Acabado

keko said:


> The sad part is your kids asking for reconciliation while *she's* fvcking brad on the side. Apparently they're moral values are closer to their mom then dad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is simply untrue. She stopped the affair at most 1 mo after DDay, more than a year ago. Possible earlier (living with OM that time doesn't mean she was in the affair with him, in a strict sense).


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> One of the things she told me recently was that after the blow-up, she drove around for hours trying to decide what to do. She called Brad and told him about the fight we had and that the affair was out in the open. He said she could stay with him, and she did , not having anywhere else to go. When she called asking to come home, she told me the truth that she was at his place. When I refused to let her come home, she was devestated. That was when she realized that their affair had to end, because she had no interest in a long-term relationship with him. Curious.


Most affairs pretend to be "just" a cake on the side, with no too much thinking beyond the next day self gratification, absolutly no plans, the count with the idea they will never get busted. Going to OM's, while not excusable at all is somehow, from a detached, intelectual POV, as a third party, you can "understand". You can sense "truth" in this a weird snes of being short of options, trapment. The same way you can understand wishing sustain some control, trying to avoid further exposure and shame (to religious parents, hence not going to their house). I've seen this sceneario too many times to count: going to AP's house due "not having any other place to go". As you told her you were done, she didn't see a way back from the hole.
You can only especulate about her motives given you never stayed calm enough to mantain a "normal" conversation with her since DDay.

Facts (not speculation) are, she begged for a chance since DDay, through all the divorce procedings, right after the divorce was final (literaly on her knees) and that she still keeps trying today, while living an honorable life, getting her sh1t together (IC, anger management, church, offering whatever...).


Rookie4, better read some stories about what a reconciliation looks like because even you realize you still love her I don't think you are ready, equipped with what it's needed to R. R is hard, very hard. You are used now to a life with not so much care. Things are simple and mostly easy, now. That's why I think is your current GF/FBW demand to be more serious wht triggered you, more than family pressure of your internal strugle about guilt. Becasue it has forced you to stop for a while and think you need a different life, not the one you have been living last year. Maybe it's just nostalgia.


----------



## walkonmars

^^All of this. Every word. What happened can't be undone. None of it.

There's potential benefits in agreeing to sharing the holiday season. It doesn't bind you in any way. It's a defined period of time. And if the thought of spending time with her during that time is something that has at least a little bit of appeal then why not? 

It can be a gauge for you and for her. A means to evaluate your sense of belonging. To evaluate if you can overcome all that happened including the foul - and most certainly untrue - language that drove a stake through your heart. 

Why not include her as a potential date? Which of your numerous dates has had no issues in her past? The fact those issues didn't involve you doesn't mean issues don't exist. Which of your dates has formed an enduring emotional bond with you? None? - why

It may not work out. Especially if she is resentful of your dating history post Dday. It may not work out if you find her to be insincere. That's what dating is about. Finding answers to questions such as these. What do you have to lose that you haven't already lost - really?


----------



## alte Dame

walkonmars said:


> .....To evaluate if you can overcome all that happened including the foul - and most certainly untrue - language that drove a stake through your heart.


It's the cruel words that have driven so much of what has happened to you, I think. These are words that shattered any chance of R at the time and drove you to your 15-20 aftermath hook-ups.

They are words that speak to something in your wife that you would have to truly understand before you could reconcile, because the person who uttered them was too cruel to be the woman you loved.

I think you need time to finally come to some understanding of these things for yourself before you come to any decision, either to R or not. Why not tell your family that you are working on things and that they need to give you time and space?


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks to ALL of you that have given me so much to think about. I can tell all of this to my IC, but he has never been married and has limited experience. Actually I'm thinking about trying somebody else who is more "worldly", and a bit older. It really, really helps to come here and talk to people who have experienced the same issues that I have and can give me some practical advice.


----------



## old timer

alte Dame said:


> I think you need time to finally come to some understanding of these things for yourself before you come to any decision, either to R or not. Why not tell your family that you are working on things and that they need to give you time and space?


:iagree:


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 and Warlock, I agree with most of what you have said, but you also must realize that, at the time, my mindset wasn't about right or wrong, fair or unfair. It was about revenge and punishment and validation. Could I forgive her? Possibly, if she can prove that those hateful words were just that, words spoken in anger, and not what she really believed, at the time. I don't know how she can do that, but I would be receptive to talking about it.
As for my sexual freakout, she knows that I slept with a number of women, but not the exact number or how many times, but I'm not sure of it myself, and would have to think about it, to recall all of them. What is most interesting is that she blames herself for all of it, and when she found out, was a basket case.


----------



## Almostrecovered

how much is the guilt of your sex binge coming into play here?


----------



## costa200

Rookie4 said:


> I would like to contact somebody in authority about this person


You can report his post but i don't know if a mod will consider a rule was broken. He voiced his opinion and it is one that isn't entirely ruled out. Although personally i think your kids just want mom and dad together again, which is only natural.


----------



## Rookie4

aug said:


> Is your wife still working with Brad? Does she still talk to Brad?
> 
> Is she still working in the same place?
> 
> Where's she living now? By herself or with Brad?
> 
> Do you know if she cut all contacts with Brad?
> 
> What makes you think she is finished with Brad? Does she despite Brad now? Venomously?


Aug, This was also one of the thornier issues, but what she told me is that in the present climate, she has to have a job, which she does. If we decide to try to R, she would be willing and happy to quit and look for another job, but if we don't try to R, she still has to support herself. Her opinion of Brad is something we have not talked about, except that she said that she ended it with him immediately after the blowup, and has not ever thought about renewing it. Actually she did say once that everytime she sees him , all she feels is shame. I know from my "informant", LOL, that she only talks to him about work related things and doesn't go near him, otherwise.


----------



## walkonmars

Did Brad ever get outed to his sig other?


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> how much is the guilt of your sex binge coming into play here?


Not as much as before. I am beginning to understand why it happened, and one thing is sure, I NEVER mis-represented anything to any of them. I was always upfront abotu what I wanted and what I didn't want.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9 and Warlock, I agree with most of what you have said, but *you also must realize that, at the time, my mindset wasn't about right or wrong, fair or unfair. It was about revenge and punishment and validation.* Could I forgive her? Possibly, if she can prove that those hateful words were just that, words spoken in anger, and not what she really believed, at the time. I don't know how she can do that, but I would be receptive to talking about it.
> As for my sexual freakout, she knows that I slept with a number of women, but not the exact number or how many times, but I'm not sure of it myself, and would have to think about it, to recall all of them. What is most interesting is that she blames herself for all of it, and *when she found out, was a basket case.*


Would you think this is a fair statement: 

"She emasculated you by telling you Brad was better. But when she saw you with other women and found out just how much you did with them she then became a basket case. As a result, you crushed her womanhood and probably wonders if one or more of the women you were with was better, sexier, tighter, etc than she is".

IMHO, both of you need to lay all of your cards on the table. She needs to do a timeline for you. But at the same time, you need to do a timeline for her as well. Considering you seemed to have lost count with the number of women you were with and how many, she needs to be informed so that she can decide if she wants to reconcile with you as well. Since you clearly admitted to revenge cheating, the two of you are morally equivalent. You, sir, are no better than she it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> Not as much as before. I am beginning to understand why it happened, and one thing is sure, I NEVER mis-represented anything to any of them. I was always upfront abotu what I wanted and what I didn't want.


not talking about the guilt in regards to the women but to the guilt that you had revenge sex galore and if that plays in factor into Ring because "you're even" or "did no better"

(I'm not saying I think that but asking if you do)


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Would you think this is a fair statement:
> 
> "She emasculated you by telling you Brad was better. But when she saw you with other women and found out just how much you did with them she then became a basket case. As a result, you crushed her womanhood and probably wonders if one or more of the women you were with was better, sexier, tighter, etc than she is".
> 
> IMHO, both of you need to lay all of your cards on the table. She needs to do a timeline for you. But at the same time, you need to do a timeline for her as well. Considering you seemed to have lost count with the number of women you were with and how many, she needs to be informed so that she can decide if she wants to reconcile with you as well. Since you clearly admitted to revenge cheating, the two of you are morally equivalent. You, sir, are no better than she it.


I never said I was better, but when she walked out of the house, she lost any of the rights she would have had as a loyal spouse. I never betrayed her, decieved her, or left her. She did those things, not me.


----------



## warlock07

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Would you think this is a fair statement:
> 
> "She emasculated you by telling you Brad was better. But when she saw you with other women and found out just how much you did with them she then became a basket case. As a result, you crushed her womanhood and probably wonders if one or more of the women you were with was better, sexier, tighter, etc than she is".
> 
> IMHO, both of you need to lay all of your cards on the table. She needs to do a timeline for you. But at the same time, you need to do a timeline for her as well. Considering you seemed to have lost count with the number of women you were with and how many, she needs to be informed so that she can decide if she wants to reconcile with you as well. Since you clearly admitted to revenge cheating, the two of you are morally equivalent. You, sir, are no better than she it.



Why are you trying to bring a guilt factor that is never there ? She was the one that had the affair. He had sex with a lot of women after he separated. No betrayal when he did that. She rubbed the affair in his face. He did not d anything. It is not wrong to have sex with other people once you are separated..

He did not "revenge cheat". Cheating is betrayal. There is no betrayal in what he did.


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## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> not talking about the guilt in regards to the women but to the guilt that you had revenge sex galore and if that plays in factor into Ring because "you're even" or "did no better"
> 
> (I'm not saying I think that but asking if you do)


AR, I don't think so. I view what happened as a reflex action to her cheating. Was it improper? Yes. Did I enjoy it? Of course.....at first. But when my desire for revenge and validation was satisfied, I stopped the "bed hopping" and began to try to start new relationships. But I don't think it has any bearing on my quandry about R.


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## Almostrecovered

thanks for answering

just trying to help you explore what reasons you have for wanting R if you have any

I think ultimately what Happyman stated some posts back is the ultimate litmus test- do you still love her?


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> Could I forgive her? Possibly, if she can prove that those hateful words were just that, words spoken in anger, and not what she really believed, at the time. I don't know how she can do that, but I would be receptive to talking about it.


I think it's definitely important that she prove that she didn't really believe those words. But, Rookie, you have to come to terms with the fact that she was the sort of person who could ever speak them at all, even in anger. I suspect you're worried about the sort of person she really is inside when she doesn't have the anger excuse.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

warlock07 said:


> Why are you trying to bring a guilt factor that is never there ? She was the one that had the affair. He had sex with a lot of women after he separated. No betrayal when he did that. She rubbed the affair in his face. He did not d anything. It is not wrong to have sex with other people once you are separated..
> 
> He did not "revenge cheat". Cheating is betrayal. There is no betrayal in what he did.


Because you are married until the divorce is final. Just because they were living apart it doesn't mean that they weren't still married. Some people would think that this is arbitrary, but I don't. Some of us consider marriage as a covenant relationship while others consider it a legal contract. So to me the marriage isn't officially over until the divorce is final. I get that the wife was the first aggressor and betrayed the OP first. I would have no problem if the OP banged 100+ women AFTER the divorce. But doing all this before the divorce is no different than cheating. IMHO, if you truly value the idea of marriage and the vows taken, then you would still hold to your vows WHILE YOU ARE STILL MARRIED until the divorce is final.


----------



## Rookie4

I want to take one minute to answer that "Keko" person's innuendos.
Whatever happened between my wife and I, she was and is a WONDERFUL mother. I cannot find a single fault in her actions, in that regard.


----------



## CH

Rookie, IMO you're not ready to R with your wife. All you would be doing is putting a band aid on a gunshot wound.

She wants back to the old marriage, went crazy when you found out about the OW during separation. Now you're wavering because you feel it's fine now because I screwed up too.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Until you can say, yes I want my wife back and I'm willing to do anything to make that happen, don't waste your time and don't waste her time. If you still have reservations about getting back together, you already answered your question for now.

Who knows in a month, 6 months, a year, you might suddenly have an epiphany and realize you do want your wife back at all costs.


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Because you are married until the divorce is final. Just because they were living apart it doesn't mean that they weren't still married. Some people would think that this is arbitrary, but I don't. Some of us consider marriage as a covenant relationship while others consider it a legal contract. So to me the marriage isn't officially over until the divorce is final. I get that the wife was the first aggressor and betrayed the OP first. I would have no problem if the OP banged 100+ women AFTER the divorce. But doing all this before the divorce is no different than cheating. IMHO, if you truly value the idea of marriage and the vows taken, then you would still hold to your vows WHILE YOU ARE STILL MARRIED until the divorce is final.


I disagree. A contract is only valid if both parties are conforming to the terms of the contract. Her actions invalidated that contract. The only thing lacking was the paperwork.


----------



## Cdelta02

Look; if you want to look past everything and give her another chance, do so. Only you know what will put your mind at rest on this topic. The flip side is do you realize why you need to put your mind to rest on this? There are many things that happen in life that dont give us "closure". Yet we live long, fruitful and happy lives. 

So - I am questioning if closure is critical for your peace of mind, if it is, go for R, time box it. If you cant get over the issues of what she did and what she said in 12 months, its not going to work.

The only caveat I would put is, don't R by getting married. The 12 months are for sure without M. If your R is going full on strong, I would personally suggest at least 2 more years before M. I know this is way too far in the future since you are still struggling with R or no R, but if you are leaning towards R, then its best that you think ahead.


----------



## old timer

Plan 9 from OS said:


> IMHO, if you truly value the idea of marriage and the vows taken, then you would still hold to your vows WHILE YOU ARE STILL MARRIED until the divorce is final.


*If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.*

(and this forum would not exist)


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree. A contract is only valid if both parties are conforming to the terms of the contract. Her actions invalidated that contract. The only thing lacking was the paperwork.


Agree to disagree. I truly empathize with you about her cheating on you. Most likely you two would be married happily if she never took that first step towards infidelity. But I believe that you got your revenge on her while you were still married. Just like you cannot arbitrarily break the law just because you don't agree with it, you should not arbitrarily decide when a legal contract is no longer binding without completing the process of dissolution. 

I don't think you should get back together with your wife because I don't think you're in a place to consider reconciliation. If the two of you did get back together, she would most likely prod you for info on all the women you slept with, and she would have the same feelings that you did when you found out about her cheating. I think the mess is too large to clean up. Good luck. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. However, I try to be as consistent as a poster as I can and when I see something that looks hypocritical I'll speak up about it.


----------



## keko

Rookie4 said:


> I want to take one minute to answer that "Keko" person's innuendos.
> Whatever happened between my wife and I, she was and is a WONDERFUL mother. I cannot find a single fault in her actions, in that regard.


Wonderful mother by showing them a great example of?.... Of how to cheat and ruin a family?


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Agree to disagree. I truly empathize with you about her cheating on you. Most likely you two would be married happily if she never took that first step towards infidelity. But I believe that you got your revenge on her while you were still married. Just like you cannot arbitrarily break the law just because you don't agree with it, you should not arbitrarily decide when a legal contract is no longer binding without completing the process of dissolution.
> 
> I don't think you should get back together with your wife because I don't think you're in a place to consider reconciliation. If the two of you did get back together, she would most likely prod you for info on all the women you slept with, and she would have the same feelings that you did when you found out about her cheating. I think the mess is too large to clean up. Good luck. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. However, I try to be as consistent as a poster as I can and when I see something that looks hypocritical I'll speak up about it.


I may disagree with your opinion, Plan 9, but your participation here, has been very helpful and honest, and I appreciate it.


----------



## tulsy

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Agree to disagree. I truly empathize with you about her cheating on you. Most likely you two would be married happily if she never took that first step towards infidelity. But I believe that you got your revenge on her while you were still married. Just like you cannot arbitrarily break the law just because you don't agree with it, you should not arbitrarily decide when a legal contract is no longer binding without completing the process of dissolution.
> 
> I don't think you should get back together with your wife because I don't think you're in a place to consider reconciliation. If the two of you did get back together, she would most likely prod you for info on all the women you slept with, and she would have the same feelings that you did when you found out about her cheating. I think the mess is too large to clean up. Good luck. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. However, I try to be as consistent as a poster as I can and when I see something that looks hypocritical I'll speak up about it.


I also disagree. Separation is legal, and it can take up to a year for a divorce to be final. If you are saying that him having sex with anyone during the legal separation period before divorce (which is legal the day of separation BTW) is considered cheating, I think that's wrong.


----------



## Rookie4

keko said:


> Wonderful mother by showing them a great example of?.... Of how to cheat and ruin a family?


I'm new here, so I'm not going to start trouble, so from now on, say what you will and I'll ignore it like gum on the sidewalk. Have a nice day.:sleeping:


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

tulsy said:


> I also disagree. Separation is legal, and it can take up to a year for a divorce to be final. If you are saying that him having sex with anyone during the legal separation period before divorce (which is legal the day of separation BTW) is considered cheating, I think that's wrong.


OP, were you legally separated or did she just move out pending the divorce?


----------



## tulsy

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, were you legally separated or did she just move out pending the divorce?


During my separation before divorce, the actual separation agreement took some time to hash out. This is usually the case, since the party's struggle to communicate during a major breakup, esp. if there are children involved. Regardless, once the paperwork was completed, actually months later, the separation date, actual day spouse moves out, IS the beginning of the legal separation. 1 year from that day, divorce is possible.

This is pretty typical, and having sex with others during this period is not cheating.


----------



## Rookie4

I hope I have answered all of the new posts.
We actually had a very good conversation last night. I called her to talk about money for books for our youngest, next semester. Afterwards she asked how I was doing and we made small talk for a while, and I don't know what got into me, but I asked if she wanted to go see a movie, this Saturday night. She started crying and junk, and thanked me a whole bunch. I said don't thank me until you have seen the movie, and we actually laughed .
We talked about her anger management classes and she said that she is now getting to some of the underlying causes, and thinks they are part of what caused her to cheat, as well. So, I guess I'm not ready to commit just yet, but I am ready to see what commitment might be like.


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, were you legally separated or did she just move out pending the divorce?


Plan 9, It made no difference to me, to be honest. When she walked out the door, I wasn't taking her back into my home, and our marriage was, in my mind , over.


----------



## old timer

*Rookie:* I did see that you are getting IC as well, didn't I?


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> I'm new here, so I'm not going to start trouble, so from now on, say what you will and I'll ignore it like gum on the sidewalk. Have a nice day.:sleeping:


All of the previous comments could be dismissed as a misunderstanding of intent. The last one was just being an A-hole to poke at you.

Here is my advice for a newbie: See the little red triangle to the lower left of a post? Hit it. It will notify a moderator. You won't be labeled as "trouble" for doing so.


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## Almostrecovered

Do be up front that a movie date isn't getting back together and you will need lots of time


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Could I forgive her? Possibly, if she can prove that those hateful words were just that, words spoken in anger, and not what she really believed, at the time. I don't know how she can do that, but I would be receptive to talking about it.


It's a trap. You know she can't. I don't think you should try to reconcile with this "condition", mindset. The lines between what you really think when you are lashing out, trying to punish and the reality are blurred. Can you tell whenw you does?

The real problem here; should she "prove" OM was not indeed bigger? or better lover?
It won't work.
That what I think, about the size... I don't know, I don't care. 

But what I' mgoing to tell you now is going to hurt. Your wife probably believed OM was a great lover, maybe even thegreates she ever had . OM was new, the ilicitness brought up more exciment, affairs are taboo, she was killing her "good girl" - church goer side, she was being nasty, she was also "punishing you" (anger is exciting), she was again being desired and persued, feeling she still "had it" was like crack, she was showered with attention (rationalizing hamsters says sex-lust), maybe romanced?. Sex was great. No doubt about it. Read about it. Affair sex is almost always great. It's a fact. Remember, sex is in the brain.
Does it hurt? To much to get over?
Man, you never asnwered whether you were her only. If not she probably had great sex before you. Yoy probably never gave too much head space to it. Why? Because the betrayal. It's the betrayal. That she somehow "chose" him over me. I never had mind movies about my wife's past sexual partners. I had them about her MOM; the fact he hardly could get hard doesn't mean a thing. I had them still.

If you can't stomach it then don't even try. I really think what's actually worrisome around this matter is she is vicious when she wants to hurt. Hopely she can "improve" at this but she can't completely erase it for good. It's jerknee reaction. Think one in 10, 100 arguments when earlier was 99 of 100.


----------



## Acabado

About movie date, askl her to don't talk about it with family, please.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> *Rookie:* I did see that you are getting IC as well, didn't I?


Yes, but I'm not too happy about it. My counselor is a very young guy with no marriage experience, so I'm thinking about trying somebody else.


----------



## Rookie4

AC and Acabado, I'm with you all the way on this. I told her that she isn't to tell ANYBODY, and if she does, there won't be another invite. I also said that this means nothing more than a casual evening out.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Rookie4 said:


> I talked to some of her co-workers and they say that she bragged about getting "steak" instead of "hamburger", and that a younger man was just what she needed. She says that the affair was partially my fault for not being home more and working night shift. But that in order that there be no "walls ", between us, she will tell me everything that happened and will completely "cut Brad out of her life", forever. IDK what to do about this. I know I can live with her, even though I don't love or trust her, so that everybody in both families will be happy, or I can go my own way and refuse to take her back, and continue as I'm doing now. She has told me that she will prove that she loves me and only wants an opportunity to do so. IDK , can any relationship this bad ever get any better?


The fact that she bragged about you in such a humiliating way and is blaming your work hours is not a good sign, friend. Also the fact that she left to stay with the OM after your fight. That's disrespectful.

I strayed, but I never humiliated my wife. I never even talked about her to the other women. I also don't blame her at all. I know I did what I did out of selfishness and my own issues, not hers.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, but I'm not too happy about it. My counselor is a very young guy with no marriage experience, so I'm thinking about trying somebody else.


I'm kind of late to the party, but I've read the full thread.

Counselors need to be someone you're very comfortable with. DEFINITELY find someone new. 

Was going to make an analogy about finding a good counselor is like finding "the one" but probably not the best place for that


----------



## Shaggy

I think the two of you socializing together is a good idea.

No sex even if the two of you feel something for a moment or two. It will mess things up.

Go out and socialize together, eat, drink, do stuff.

No sex, for a long time, just take it off the table officially if it comes up.

If you find you can stand to around her, see next if you enjoy it.

If it works , then kick it up a notch and actually take a trip together and then have sex.

But take it slow, very slow.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Shaggy said:


> I think the two of you socializing together is a good idea.
> 
> No sex even if the two of you feel something for a moment or two. It will mess things up.
> 
> Go out and socialize together, eat, drink, do stuff.
> 
> No sex, for a long time, just take it off the table officially if it comes up.
> 
> If you find you can stand to around her, see next if you enjoy it.
> 
> If it works , then kick it up a notch and actually take a trip together and then have sex.
> 
> But take it slow, very slow.


Excellent suggestion.

You will find out quickly if the spark is still there, and then you need to decide if her remorse is real and if you will ever be able to trust her enough to not punish her forever.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> It's a trap. You know she can't. I don't think you should try to reconcile with this "condition", mindset. The lines between what you really think when you are lashing out, trying to punish and the reality are blurred. Can you tell whenw you does?
> 
> The real problem here; should she "prove" OM was not indeed bigger? or better lover?
> It won't work.
> That what I think, about the size... I don't know, I don't care.
> 
> But what I' mgoing to tell you now is going to hurt. Your wife probably believed OM was a great lover, maybe even thegreates she ever had . OM was new, the ilicitness brought up more exciment, affairs are taboo, she was killing her "good girl" - church goer side, she was being nasty, she was also "punishing you" (anger is exciting), she was again being desired and persued, feeling she still "had it" was like crack, she was showered with attention (rationalizing hamsters says sex-lust), maybe romanced?. Sex was great. No doubt about it. Read about it. Affair sex is almost always great. It's a fact. Remember, sex is in the brain.
> Does it hurt? To much to get over?
> Man, you never asnwered whether you were her only. If not she probably had great sex before you. Yoy probably never gave too much head space to it. Why? Because the betrayal. It's the betrayal. That she somehow "chose" him over me. I never had mind movies about my wife's past sexual partners. I had them about her MOM; the fact he hardly could get hard doesn't mean a thing. I had them still.
> 
> If you can't stomach it then don't even try. I really think what's actually worrisome around this matter is she is vicious when she wants to hurt. Hopely she can "improve" at this but she can't completely erase it for good. It's jerknee reaction. Think one in 10, 100 arguments when earlier was 99 of 100.


One time during a talk, she said that , She can't really say that it was bigger or better, because she never really saw it very clearly , because they always used condoms and she never did anything else to him except straight sex. That he made her feel like a teenager again, and was always willing to shape his life around her. whatever that means.


----------



## warlock07

Was her anger a common theme through out the marriage ?

And what do you feel about her right now ? Anger ? numbness or do you miss her ?


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Was her anger a common theme through out the marriage ?
> 
> And what do you feel about her right now ? Anger ? numbness or do you miss her ?


She has always handled anger badly. I miss her, and what our marriage was before this mess started.


----------



## TDSC60

You need to take a step back. You are feeling nostalgic because of the holidays and everyone pushing you to R. You think that maybe you can recapture the life you had pre-affair. You have dreams of being a family again, the only problem is that pre-affair you thought you had a loving, faithful wife and a good marriage. Turns out she was cheating on you, hiding it, blaming it on you, and when exposed, turned into a vicious, spiteful, vengeful, hateful, cheating b*tch. You are longing for and missing something that is gone and dead (pre affair marriage). It cannot be revived. You can start a new relationship but make sure that is what you want.

Now she says she is sorry and did not mean all the things she said. Can you believe her? Can you forgive her for the betrayal, the lies, and the spiteful things she said to you and about you to others?

Don't let others influence your decision. Try not to let the holidays lead you down a path you are not ready for. Take it slow. Decide what you want to do after the first of the year.

Enjoy Christmas as much as possible. It is an emotional time and you know that this is not the time to make any life altering decisions.


----------



## ing

I have read this like I was reading a chapter from my own life. The length of the relationship, the divorce, all of it could be me. I acted pretty much like you. 

They say that the more a man is hurt, the faster he will move on because the pain is unbearable. You acted in the only way you could. The words and actions of this woman you had made your life with caused such searing unbearable pain. 

Of course you loved her and her you. You were together 25 years, there are so many shared memories, so many tough times that you went through together. Your children. Waking up beside each other for all those years. Knowing that if you touched her "just there" she would roll over and stop snoring without waking her up.

So much life together can not be simply be categorized as "oh well"
5 years together. You start again
10 years together and you have invested a lot but there is room for another..

20 years [plus] your dreams and long term plans have had time to happen. Maybe they didn't. Maybe you promised more, maybe she did. 
By now you know every part of her, every flicker on her face, every inflection in her voice. You know her every mood, her every fault. As she knows yours.

She assumed you would always love her. She assumed you were a constant and then, and then, she found a part of you that she had never seen. The tough, unbending and absolute man who said no to the outside world so many times. Who protected your family, who bent and cracked over the years to hold it together. She saw you from the outside in and did not recognize you. You said no to her in a way that she never expected and the Other man said yes. 
She was used to that. You became the enemy and she wanted to hurt you because you would not accept her decisions. 

Then you did what any man who has held it together for so long will do. He stands up. 
It took all my energy to hold it together for the kids. And other women look at you and stare. This man. This man fights for what is right and has self respect oozing of of every pore of his body. 
You get laid.

Then you start to recover, you both miss each other. Not a bit. Not a memory of something else, but a real loss. Huge ongoing grief and loss at your friend. Your lover, your partner. 

She can see now what she has lost. 

The man that was always there. Not Alpha ,gamma nor beta but all of them, because that it what it takes to stay married for 20 + years. 

Don't rush. There is no rush. There will be something you can negotiate. There always has been! 
It may not be the same as before, it may not be a relationship as such. Just talk, and reach a point where you can both live your lives without pain. 

Like I say. It is like reading a chapter from my own life. 

Travel well my friend


----------



## happyman64

Rookie

I copied your reply off another thread.



Rookie4 said:


> Lucky you. I eat in Restaurants, have nobody but my dog to come home to, and a cheater as an ex wife. I'll trade you.


You can change this if you want to. The choice is yours.

And the ExW was a cheater.

What is she like now???

Stop getting hung up on the OM. Even though your wife's words were hurtful, she still chooses you.

At least take satisfaction that she chooses you. Yes it was lousy how she reached that decision.

But the fact still remains you are the one.

So how about 25 more years?

HM64


----------



## old timer

ing said:


> .20 years [plus] your dreams and long term plans have had time to happen. Maybe they didn't. Maybe you promised more, maybe she did.
> By now you know every part of her, every flicker on her face, every inflection in her voice. You know her every mood, her every fault. As she knows yours.....
> 
> ..........
> 
> Don't rush. There is no rush. There will be something you can negotiate. There always has been!
> It may not be the same as before, it may not be a relationship as such. Just talk, and reach a point where you can both live your lives without pain.



*ing:* Very succinctly stated.


----------



## VFW

I have a couple of comments that I hope help. As you have already stated, there are idiots on here that want to evoke emotion. While this would obviously infuriate you, just ignore them, as you have already resolved to do. 

Next, this time of year stirs emotions like no other time of the year, so I suggest that you make no decisions until after the New Year, when things settle down. That being said you seemed to have decided to include your ex in your celebration of the season. I think it deserves being said that the festivities need a caveat. 

The children need to come and enjoy one another’s company, but there should be no mention of getting back together. That is between you and your ex and added pressure does not help the situation. You need to tell your wife that your marriage is over. That relationship is dead and can never be resurrected. You can move forward in many different ways, but it will never be what it was before, that is impossible. 

If you to decide to date fine. It needs to be defined as exclusive or not, however you decide. If you decide to date her along with others, than the other need to be informed, so there are no misgivings. I believe you need to tell her you have no intention of marrying anytime soon and may never marry her. Don’t think that just because you date, that you don’t have to remarry……..ever, if you don’t want. 

Don’t look at this so much as a reconciliation as a new relationship with a new woman, the new her. Be very honest with her and the children and go SLOW (snail slow). 
Many will tell you she has to quit her job and usually I agree with them, but I think that this Barney (brad), may actually serve as a reminder of the selfish her of Christmas past. Best wishes to you.


----------



## old timer

*VFW:* You don't post very much, but your comments are always worth reading.


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> I hope I have answered all of the new posts.
> We actually had a very good conversation last night. I called her to talk about money for books for our youngest, next semester. Afterwards she asked how I was doing and we made small talk for a while, and I don't know what got into me, but I asked if she wanted to go see a movie, this Saturday night. She started crying and junk, and thanked me a whole bunch. I said don't thank me until you have seen the movie, and we actually laughed .
> We talked about her anger management classes and she said that she is now getting to some of the underlying causes, and thinks they are part of what caused her to cheat, as well. So, I guess I'm not ready to commit just yet, but I am ready to see what commitment might be like.


Good for you. Take one step at a time. If I already said this sorry to repeat myself, get the book Surviving An Affair. An invaluable tool to recover from an affair and for both spouses to learn how to have a marriage better then before.


----------



## Acabado

> Later that week, I asked her about it and we had a real bad , knockdown drag out fight about it and she admitted everything. She said that he was a much better lover than me, was younger, more fit and had a bigger "tool", than I did...
> She left that night and stayed with Brad, for IDK how long, but when she called me later that month, she was living with her parents.


It seems you still don't know too much about the affair it self. Even when she offered full disclosure.
How long it was?
How much time did she stay at OM's house?

I hope the date goes fine... enough to plan a new one, to get to know each other again.

If you ever entertain the idea of getting back together you will need to know some specifics, maybe not every gory detail but the key questions as the couple above. I encourage you to read the book Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass. It will be triggery but it will help you mid/long term. It can also help you to envision how to deal with "it".


----------



## Alpha2012

Is it really a good idea to know everything about the affair? Personally, I think that knowing everything will only add more pain. In the end, the fact that matters is that there was a physical and an emotional affair. Who cares about all of the details surrounding it...? 

Not sure if a date night is a good idea...especially if you don't have the intentions on getting back together. It would just make things messier.

I do, however, understand you completely and acknowledge that this time of the year (the holiday season) makes it very difficult for separated couples and often provokes a reflection of the decisions made. 

But please, do yourself a HUGE favor and enter any interractions with her with major reservations. Do not, I repeat, do not let yourself get emotional. You will be reminded of the past, of how things used to be BEFORE the affair, of what a great marriage you had and how lucky you were to be with each other. You need to be able to separate yourself from those thoughts. 

You have asked her out - right or wrong - it's done. Can"t go back. Use all of your senses to observe and annalyze her - every word, every gesture, action, spark in her eyes - look at her eyes and read through them. Listen to your guts...do you sense that she truly is ready to work things out? Is she truly sorry? Do you see YOURSELF with her because this is your own, honest, and pure decision?

I believe that everyone deserves a second chance and that we all make mistakes, all of us. However, a second chance should be given only if we are convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it's worth trying and fighting again.

As for the rest around you (relatives, kids, etc.), you are a mature enough man to know that personal decisions like this should be made only as a result of your own, personal desires. Don't let others interfere with your decisions. For once it is all about you. Curious to see how all this plays out for you....

By the way, what movie are you going to see?


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> It seems you still don't know too much about the affair it self. Even when she offered full disclosure.
> How long it was?
> How much time did she stay at OM's house?
> 
> I hope the date goes fine... enough to plan a new one, to get to know each other again.
> 
> If you ever entertain the idea of getting back together you will need to know some specifics, maybe not every gory detail but the key questions as the couple above. I encourage you to read the book Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass. It will be triggery but it will help you mid/long term. It can also help you to envision how to deal with "it".


Acabado, can you ever really be sure that you know evrything about an affair? What I "know", is some of the background, the rest is what my ex-wife and others have told me and what I have learned for myself. 
Brad is a fairly new employee, has been at the hospital for less than a year, approx. 8-10 months, so the affair could not have been longer than that. The first I learned of anything inappropriate, was about 2 or 3 mos. before "D-day". My ex says that the affair did not become physical until right before D-day, and that the physical part lasted for 3 weeks and ended a week or so after D-day, when she left his house and went to her parents. Please understand that this timeline is approximate. I know very little about Brad and his other relationships, and don't want to know. My beef is with my ex, not with Brad, because I can do very little about him, for now. My old Dad always said that " every dog has his day", so I will bide my time. At some point, I will get Brad alone with no witnesses and beat him to a pulp.


----------



## Rookie4

Please understand that I'm not a violent person, except for my war service. I have no intention of doing any permanent harm to Brad, but what I will do is make him regret ****ing my wife, forever.


----------



## Malaise

Rookie4 said:


> Please understand that I'm not a violent person, except for my war service. I have no intention of doing any permanent harm to Brad, but what I will do is make him regret ****ing my wife, forever.


This is where we're supposed to say

"Oh no! Don't do that!"

Consider it said


----------



## Wazza

Hi Rookie. I am a betrayed spouse who has successfully reconciled for over twenty years.

A couple of comments from my own experience.

First, it is really hard work to reconcile, even if you realy want to. Don't even bother trying unless you really want it. And for goodness sake don't do it for other people...that would be a disaster IMO.

Second, if you are considering reconciling, take it very slow. Shaggy posted something earlier along those lines, but I thought even his approach was rushing it. And this must be the first time I have ever argued that Shaggy is urging too quick a reconciliation 

Third, if you are going to do this, you need to make things right with the girlfriend first. Anything else is cheating on her.

Fourth, my wife didn't say "he is bigger and better" but she did tell me the OM made her feel sexually alive in a way I never had. Well it still hurts after all these years, and I never found an answer beyond "Live with it". Truth is he probably was better in bed than me, and if she wants a porn star sex god she picked the wrong guy. I deal with it better now but it hurts, and I think always will.

Fifth, you do have history. To me this is important. For better or worse I have been with my wife all my adult life and have a plethora of experiences together, mostly very good. We are now grandparents. We have a lot of similar views, values and interests. This is something we can never have with anyone else. That matters to me.

Finally, in your shoes, I would have to ask why she left you, went to Brad's, called you the next day to plead to come back...and then stayed with him for a week. Based on what I have read, sorry but I wonder if you really have the truth. I woud wonder if she wanted to come back only to avoid being exposed as a cheater, and if she only left him because he didn't want her.

Good luck with your decision. Oh and if anyone lays the religious guilt trip on you again, let us know and I will point out a couple of bible pass ages you can use to shut them up. Your divorce is totally in line with Christian teaching.


----------



## Shaggy

BTW - there is no way they used a condom in the affair. Affairs are all feelings and passion and condoms get in the way of that, so while you may have been told they used condom, it's either a lie or the first affair in history to do so..

Was your wife on birth control at the time? You have your true answer.


----------



## aug

Rookie4 said:


> Please understand that I'm not a violent person, except for my war service. I have no intention of doing any permanent harm to Brad, but what I will do is make him regret ****ing my wife, forever.



If you do that, then you should do the same to your wife. It's only fair. After all, I believe she is a mature adult who made her own decision and partook of the affair willingly. She may even be the instigator/pursuer of the affair.

Your wife is around 50 years old or so, right? Is Brad much younger than your wife?

However I think you're just venting here.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4, from the lack of details in your posts (Maybe I just missed out them) I believed you were more in the dark about the basics. I was just pointing out if R is to happen you will feel the urge to know "more". 
Wazza, Shaggy shine light to some of those unanswered questions you'd likely need to make. I also suggested Not Just Friend, because it contains a section with the more common, basic questions normaly BSs require to comtemplate R.
BTW It's a good sign she offered disclosure. I suspect she has been "processing" infidelity material. A recent comment about what her IC and the role "anger" played in her betrayal also points out to it.

Back to my recent topic... I was trying to put you in which for me is a healthy frame of mind: "think in the worse and from there". My wife's affair, the PA portion was pathetic, it didn't made it less hurtful. A good deal of affairs are like this, specially for a certain WWs who are fond of fantasy. But the thought of my wife throwing herself to that POS MOM in exchange for attention as a complete wh0re was really horrible. That's the thing, if your wife had a deep EA, as in my wife's case (she fell desperately, madly in love with him) would bring you just a different set of issues, not less damaging, just diffferent. Her affair was a marriage killer too. For my I'd choose a string of ONS, sex NSA in a blink. Obviously you need to deal with your particular sh1t sandwich. As wazza, I'm reconciled too. So it's possible. I'm not telling you to do it, only it's possible.

About OM, Rookie4 forget about him. It's not worth the time. Really. After being "done" with him you will still have a cheating XW. The relief will be only temporal. OM could be anyone, really. He was just willing, aviable, in the right place at the right time, he fit the role your wife "needed"... as zillions of potential APs out there. The issue is your wife caved in but temptation is always out there. She's the one who crossed the marital boundaires, who dishonored her word.

Your wife's affair was a dealbreaker. Your immediate reaction prove it, wich is perfectly fine. It's also fine to think in starting a new relationship with your XW. 
Another though of mine is you are taught your grown up childrens a great lesson about self respect. Don't discard the idea that going back to her, rethinking your past options is undoing that lesson. Forgiveness is also possible.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Hi Rookie. I am a betrayed spouse who has successfully reconciled for over twenty years.
> 
> A couple of comments from my own experience.
> 
> First, it is really hard work to reconcile, even if you realy want to. Don't even bother trying unless you really want it. And for goodness sake don't do it for other people...that would be a disaster IMO.
> 
> Second, if you are considering reconciling, take it very slow. Shaggy posted something earlier along those lines, but I thought even his approach was rushing it. And this must be the first time I have ever argued that Shaggy is urging too quick a reconciliation
> 
> Third, if you are going to do this, you need to make things right with the girlfriend first. Anything else is cheating on her.
> 
> Fourth, my wife didn't say "he is bigger and better" but she did tell me the OM made her feel sexually alive in a way I never had. Well it still hurts after all these years, and I never found an answer beyond "Live with it". Truth is he probably was better in bed than me, and if she wants a porn star sex god she picked the wrong guy. I deal with it better now but it hurts, and I think always will.
> 
> Fifth, you do have history. To me this is important. For better or worse I have been with my wife all my adult life and have a plethora of experiences together, mostly very good. We are now grandparents. We have a lot of similar views, values and interests. This is something we can never have with anyone else. That matters to me.
> 
> Finally, in your shoes, I would have to ask why she left you, went to Brad's, called you the next day to plead to come back...and then stayed with him for a week. Based on what I have read, sorry but I wonder if you really have the truth. I woud wonder if she wanted to come back only to avoid being exposed as a cheater, and if she only left him because he didn't want her.
> 
> Good luck with your decision. Oh and if anyone lays the religious guilt trip on you again, let us know and I will point out a couple of bible pass ages you can use to shut them up. Your divorce is totally in line with Christian teaching.


Thank you for the words of wisdom, Wazza. I agree with much of what you have said, except the part about me having to "live with", the sexual issues. I have no intention of doing that and I'll tell you why. One thing I have learned since coming to TAM is that there MUST be complete honesty for R to truly be effective and lasting. I'm not going to settle for anything less than a completely honest wife. Now, she has told me repeatedly that what she said that night was false and only said for it's hurtful value. So, now if she ever intimates that what she said was true , or what she was feeling at the time, how can any trust be revived? I think I am willing to give her the opportunity to try to win me back and I think it's possible that I can forgive her. But, and it's a big but like J-Lo, it will HAVE to be based on what she has told me since that horrible night. Everything she has said and done since, must be the complete truth, I will accept nothing less and do not feel that I can or should . She cheated, she will have to put up or shut up. Before I make any kind of long-term decision, I will take MY time, and the R will be by MY instructions. If I tell her to take 50 lie-detector tests, she will take 50 lie-detector tests. My game, my rules. She gets no free passes, she will have to earn her way back. Honesty is non-negotiable.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Rookie4, from the lack of details in your posts (Maybe I just missed out them) I believed you were more in the dark about the basics. I was just pointing out if R is to happen you will feel the urge to know "more".
> Wazza, Shaggy shine light to some of those unanswered questions you'd likely need to make. I also suggested Not Just Friend, because it contains a section with the more common, basic questions normaly BSs require to comtemplate R.
> BTW It's a good sign she offered disclosure. I suspect she has been "processing" infidelity material. A recent comment about what her IC and the role "anger" played in her betrayal also points out to it.
> 
> Back to my recent topic... I was trying to put you in which for me is a healthy frame of mind: "think in the worse and from there". My wife's affair, the PA portion was pathetic, it didn't made it less hurtful. A good deal of affairs are like this, specially for a certain WWs who are fond of fantasy. But the thought of my wife throwing herself to that POS MOM in exchange for attention as a complete wh0re was really horrible. That's the thing, if your wife had a deep EA, as in my wife's case (she fell desperately, madly in love with him) would bring you just a different set of issues, not less damaging, just diffferent. Her affair was a marriage killer too. For my I'd choose a string of ONS, sex NSA in a blink. Obviously you need to deal with your particular sh1t sandwich. As wazza, I'm reconciled too. So it's possible. I'm not telling you to do it, only it's possible.
> 
> About OM, Rookie4 forget about him. It's not worth the time. Really. After being "done" with him you will still have a cheating XW. The relief will be only temporal. OM could be anyone, really. He was just willing, aviable, in the right place at the right time, he fit the role your wife "needed"... as zillions of potential APs out there. The issue is your wife caved in but temptation is always out there. She's the one who crossed the marital boundaires, who dishonored her word.
> 
> Your wife's affair was a dealbreaker. Your immediate reaction prove it, wich is perfectly fine. It's also fine to think in starting a new relationship with your XW.
> Another though of mine is you are taught your grown up childrens a great lesson about self respect. Don't discard the idea that going back to her, rethinking your past options is undoing that lesson. Forgiveness is also possible.


No worries, Acabado, before I commit, I will know everything, even those things I don't want to know.


----------



## Rookie4

aug said:


> If you do that, then you should do the same to your wife. It's only fair. After all, I believe she is a mature adult who made her own decision and partook of the affair willingly. She may even be the instigator/pursuer of the affair.
> 
> Your wife is around 50 years old or so, right? Is Brad much younger than your wife?
> 
> However I think you're just venting here.


We are in our late 40"s, with her a year younger than me. Brad is 37-38 something like that. No, I will kick his ass, at some point in time. I look forward to it. I'm an old hillbilly, I never forget a wrong done to me, and I always get payback. The prick might have a bigger d**k, but there is no way he has bigger b*lls.


----------



## Rookie4

Shaggy said:


> BTW - there is no way they used a condom in the affair. Affairs are all feelings and passion and condoms get in the way of that, so while you may have been told they used condom, it's either a lie or the first affair in history to do so..
> 
> Was your wife on birth control at the time? You have your true answer.


I'm fairly sure she is telling the truth. She hasn't been on BC since about 5 years ago.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Thank you for the words of wisdom, Wazza. I agree with much of what you have said, except the part about me having to "live with", the sexual issues. I have no intention of doing that and I'll tell you why. One thing I have learned since coming to TAM is that there MUST be complete honesty for R to truly be effective and lasting. I'm not going to settle for anything less than a completely honest wife. Now, she has told me repeatedly that what she said that night was false and only said for it's hurtful value. So, now if she ever intimates that what she said was true , or what she was feeling at the time, how can any trust be revived? I think I am willing to give her the opportunity to try to win me back and I think it's possible that I can forgive her. But, and it's a big but like J-Lo, it will HAVE to be based on what she has told me since that horrible night. Everything she has said and done since, must be the complete truth, I will accept nothing less and do not feel that I can or should . She cheated, she will have to put up or shut up. Before I make any kind of long-term decision, I will take MY time, and the R will be by MY instructions. If I tell her to take 50 lie-detector tests, she will take 50 lie-detector tests. My game, my rules. She gets no free passes, she will have to earn her way back. Honesty is non-negotiable.


Honesty is not the same as sexual pride. Is your issue that she lied, or that you could not accept Brad being better in bed than you? Or both?

By the way......you can't reconcile in the face of lies, but sometimes it is better t stop chasing more information and not push for disclosure. So even the need for 100% honesty is a little clouded.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Honesty is not the same as sexual pride. Is your issue that she lied, or that you could not accept Brad being better in bed than you? Or both?
> 
> By the way......you can't reconcile in the face of lies, but sometimes it is better t stop chasing more information and not push for disclosure. So even the need for 100% honesty is a little clouded.


Sorry, but I disagree. During a marriage , sometimes the truth gets stretched, but considering the infidelity, honesty must be the first priority, in all future dealings..


----------



## Woodchuck

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry I'm so late getting back, but I've been busy and it is really , really hard to say what comes next. Later that week, I asked her about it and we had a real bad , knockdown drag out fight about it and she admitted everything. She said that he was a much better lover than me, was younger, more fit and had a bigger "tool", than I did. Now, when we were just married, As a joke, we measured my "tool", and it was 7.5 inches long and really big around, so Brad must be hung like a horse. She left that night and stayed with Brad, for IDK how long, but when she called me later that month, she was living with her parents. She said she wanted to get back together and forget about the past, and work for the future. I refused and we divorced later that year. Since then she has been trying to get me to give her another chance, saying she was lying about the sex being better with Brad, just to anger me and get me to fight for her. I don't beleive anything she says. Our kids want us to reconcile, both sets of parents do as well. In fact it is the main source of conversation when any of us get together. Everybody wants us to reconcile, but me. I talked to some of her co-workers and they say that she bragged about getting "steak" instead of "hamburger", and that a younger man was just what she needed. She says that the affair was partially my fault for not being home more and working night shift. But that in order that there be no "walls ", between us, she will tell me everything that happened and will completely "cut Brad out of her life", forever. IDK what to do about this. I know I can live with her, even though I don't love or trust her, so that everybody in both families will be happy, or I can go my own way and refuse to take her back, and continue as I'm doing now. She has told me that she will prove that she loves me and only wants an opportunity to do so. IDK , can any relationship this bad ever get any better?



Ya, a blind person can see it was your fault...BS....Leave her on the curb you kicked her to.....


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I disagree. During a marriage , sometimes the truth gets stretched, but considering the infidelity, honesty must be the first priority, in all future dealings..


I've said several times that there should be no rush, that you should take time to decide something so important. In that time, you can decide what your conditions might be & they may well be different from what others feel comfortable with, but you were traumatized by your W & have every right to be in control of how you manage this process.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I disagree. During a marriage , sometimes the truth gets stretched, but considering the infidelity, honesty must be the first priority, in all future dealings..


Hi Rookie, I totally agree about honesty actually. Anything else is a problem.

But I think most betrayed spouses will tell you they start with wanting to know everything, but reach a point where raking over the details is all pain and no gain.

100% honesty as in no lies? Yes please. 100% honesty as in tell me every last painful detail so I can wallow in it. Well go for that if you want, but I don't. I prefer to bury the past and work on building the future - partly because the past includes the six most painful months of my life, and that can never be erased. I couldn't live with her if that was my focus.

Anyway, if you disagree that's ok, I am just one person, no great expert.


----------



## old timer

I'd prefer not to know the details. But given my past, it could be an unconscious ploy on my part to avoid having to reciprocate.


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> I'm fairly sure she is telling the truth. She hasn't been on BC since about 5 years ago.


Life experience on infidelity forums has always shown that the WW lets the OM ride bareback. Sorry to be so blunt.

Get that polygraph test done.


----------



## Kasler

This is so odd.

I have no idea why hes trying to force R on himself. 

If you want it, go ahead, have her move in and see how it goes. No need to waste time trying to justify something you're already dead set on doing anyways.


----------



## Rookie4

Kasler said:


> This is so odd.
> 
> I have no idea why hes trying to force R on himself.
> 
> If you want it, go ahead, have her move in and see how it goes. No need to waste time trying to justify something you're already dead set on doing anyways.


Whoa there, Tex. Nobody said anything about moving in. What I'm considering is giving her a one-time opportunity to try to prove herself. Totally different.


----------



## Rookie4

Well, I'm off to pic her up for the movies and I'm as nervous as a cat on a hot rock. If I feel like it, we might stop off for a nightcap, but I doubt it. But I'm winging it here, so anything might happen. Wish me Luck!


----------



## Acabado

Good luck, man.


----------



## Rookie4

Lots to think about.
I never mentioned it, but my ex-wife is a truly beautiful woman. Even after having 3 kids she looks........jes fine!!! People used to tell me all of the time how lucky I was to have such a stunning bride. She was drop-dead, tonight. Picture a 40ish Elizabeth Taylor (without the flab) and you've got her.
The electricity was enough to power a suburb. The tears were always close to the surface.I could barely pay attention to James Bond doing nasty things to assorted bad guys. It might have been a good movie, but you could not prove it by me. she told me that this was the happiest night she has had for two years.
Afterwards, we had a latte, and I took her home. We got to her appt. building and I didn't know what to do. Should I kiss her or not? I need not have worried, she came into my arms and it was a real good feeling. She said a lot of things but they are private things for my ears alone. But the last thing she said was that my arms were where she belonged, and that she would never stop being mine, and mine alone. I guess that should answer all of you who asked if I still love her or not. Yes....I do.


----------



## Kasler

Rookie4 said:


> Whoa there, Tex. Nobody said anything about moving in. What I'm considering is giving her a one-time opportunity to try to prove herself. Totally different.


A one time opportunity is something that doesn't exist. 

She can be the virgin mary when back in the relationship and grow old that way, or she can mozy up to you real good, for maybe a few months or so and then revert back to the wife who would run to the OM's house after being ousted.

Theres no kinda of test you can give short term to see whether she would be faithful in the long term.. 

Dating, trying being friends, hanging out, etc. all short term that can change after a year.

Either you jump back in the lake or you don't.


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks, but I think I'll do it the patient way.


----------



## jameskimp

Rookie4 said:


> Lots to think about.
> I never mentioned it, but my ex-wife is a truly beautiful woman. Even after having 3 kids she looks........jes fine!!!


Looks the OM was after one thing and he got it. He used her well and she came back to you as option number 2. 

That is the way I see it. If it were me, I would banish her from my life after all that she said. Very easy to use the excuse of her saying things she doesn't mean when she's mad when in reality, we often express our most truest feelings then.

But you seem content with her explanations, pressure from everyone, and some good old sex so good Luck.


----------



## Rookie4

That's the way you see it, that's not the way I see it, but thanks for the advice anyway. I can always use it.


----------



## Malaise

I truly hope that things work out the way YOU want them to.

The only caveat I can see is that the conditions that caused her to stray back then don't replicate again.

Hopefully she's getting help for the issues that drove her to do what she did.

Have those issues in her life been addressed?


----------



## jameskimp

Rookie4 said:


> That's the way you see it, that's not the way I see it, but thanks for the advice anyway. I can always use it.


Of course. It is indeed your life. 

Beauty and a propensity to stray are the worst traits you can combine in a woman. You seem so enamored by her again that you would crash very hard if history followed the tendency of repeating itself.


----------



## Wazza

I know there is some truth in the notion of plan B as a general concept, and I earlier posted some questions that I would want answered. Having said that....sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone. Maybe your wife has learned a very hard lesson.

Go slow, but it sounds like you want to reconcile for you. And if that is that case, go for it. We will do what we can to support you.

You will have doubts, and the truth is there are no guarantees. But you can get through them.


----------



## Rookie4

Malaise said:


> I truly hope that things work out the way YOU want them to.
> 
> The only caveat I can see is that the conditions that caused her to stray back then don't replicate again.
> 
> Hopefully she's getting help for the issues that drove her to do what she did.
> 
> Have those issues in her life been addressed?


She is working hard to learn to control her anger and to understand why she cheated, in IC. I didn't know this , but she has been in therapy since right after the divorce was final.


----------



## Cdelta02

Rookie4,

One suggestion - write down what you want to see and what would be negatives before you embark on this process. It will help keep you objective as you start trying out the relationship because once you get even a little involved, that will cloud your judgment.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> She is working hard to learn to control her anger and to understand why she cheated, in IC. I didn't know this , but she has been in therapy since right after the divorce was final.


And that shows you that she is serious about fixing her issues.

Great sign!

I am glad you guys went out.

Take your time. See if you can rebuild the trust.

You and your family are in my prayers.

Stay strong Rookie.


----------



## Eli-Zor

You mentioned in one of your posts that your wife said "she will cut Brad from her life" . The word "will" does not reflect an action.

While I fully support your option to R there are actions to be taken , your wife is not to see or be in any direct or indirect contact with Brad ever again even if she has to leave her job . Another example is your wife said things to her co-workers - how about she undoes what she said by writing an email to them apologising and therein state not only was she wrong but what she feels today about you . This is not intended to humiliate her it is to evidence she is willing to proactively tell people she was wrong to have an affair and loves you. 

Gentle steps , your heart will lead the way however let your brain decide . Be rational and decide where you want to be in ten or twenty years. Look at what she took from your marriage when you divorced and what will she bring back into it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> She is working hard to learn to control her anger and to understand why she cheated, in IC. I didn't know this , but she has been in therapy since right after the divorce was final.


I am glad you enjoyed your date.

Your WW going to IC is a good sign that she is doing the work to recover.

WW needs to go 100% with the OM now. Tell WW she needs to find another job ASAP. Yes she needs money, yes she has bills to pay, yes she needs NC ASAP.

Tell WW that working with the OM has to end. It will not end until she starts applying for suitable job openings.


----------



## Rookie4

Hi, Everybody, I will post later as my ex has invited me over for lunch with her.


----------



## TDSC60

Enjoy her campaign to win you back!!

Take it slow and let her work for it.


----------



## Shaggy

My advice is slow way way down. 

Don't let one date and some nice words from her get your libido fired up and have you start rushing things. Its easy to get caught up the immediately feelings and not pay attention to the long term truths.

So slow right down and take this slowly.


----------



## SadandAngry

Rookie4 said:


> Should I kiss her or not? I need not have worried, she came into my arms and it was a real good feeling. She said a lot of things but they are private things for my ears alone. But the last thing she said was that my arms were where she belonged, and that she would never stop being mine, and mine alone. I guess that should answer all of you who asked if I still love her or not. Yes....I do.


She already did stop being yours and yours alone, that's why you're here, remember? How does she know she won't repeat her actions in the future? Does she know why she acted so selfishly? Why did she so easily choose to destroy your life together? Why is she still in contact with OM? 

Slow down, allow your logic to lead, not your feelings.


----------



## SadandAngry

oops


----------



## alte Dame

I realize we're complete strangers, but somehow I'm worried about you.

I know that 40ish Liz Taylor with no flab is a mighty draw , but you were so wounded by your W's behavior, that I have to scream some support for the advice to slow down. Take the time to let your heart and mind come to a joint decision.


----------



## Acabado

Wazza said:


> I know there is some truth in the notion of plan B as a general concept, and I earlier posted some questions that I would want answered. Having said that....sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone. Maybe your wife has learned a very hard lesson.


From What I've read here, on DDay she called from OM's place, after driving for hours not knowing where to land, asking forgiveness, apologizing and begging to let her back.
I wasn't even Plan Z for my wife.
I don't see Plan B in this case at all.
As a matter of fact, beyond for the cheating itself, the horrible fight of the confrontation and being kicked out almost every single of WWs actions are what every - willing to R - BS would wish from their WS. Even after there was no hope anymore. Are we reading a different thread? I think it would be wise to skip another member's post and only read OPs to reach conclusions. Maybe, a timeline with the main events would help.


Man, I'm glad to hear the date went well, sounds very intense. Give yourself time to digest, process it, to interpret your feelings. Are you planning another date? Did you ask her to mantain things in secret? Can you confide your wife's roomate would comply with the secret part?


----------



## Acabado

Eli-Zor said:


> You mentioned in one of your posts that your wife said "she will cut Brad from her life" . The word "will" does not reflect an action.
> 
> While I fully support your option to R there are actions to be taken , your wife is not to see or be in any direct or indirect contact with Brad ever again even if she has to leave her job . Another example is your wife said things to her co-workers - how about she undoes what she said by writing an email to them apologising and therein state not only was she wrong but what she feels today about you . This is not intended to humiliate her it is to evidence she is willing to proactively tell people she was wrong to have an affair and loves you.
> 
> Gentle steps , your heart will lead the way however let your brain decide . Be rational and decide where you want to be in ten or twenty years. Look at what she took from your marriage when you divorced and what will she bring back into it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now we are jumping directly from one year already divorced, don't look back, to a tentative date to drafting the conditions to R... in two days!
I think it's premature but if is R is now more a possibility writing down the conditions, dealbreakers are a must.
As any other affair: "Not friends of marriage" must go. The way to adress who is "friend of the marriage" and who's not must be thought and discussed too.
My POV is except extreme circunstances I can't think now (changing and making amends themselves to BS's entire satisfaction), every enabler, cheerleaders are completely out. Dropping all toxicity is a must.

Ask for the standard requirements, confide in us.

Man, what about GF/FBW now?


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Hi, Everybody, I will post later as my ex has invited me over for lunch with her.


Well I didn't finish reading! She's not wasting any more time for sure!
Be careful, think with the right head!! She's going to throw herself, she was praying for this for more than a year!

WTF!


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> From What I've read here, on DDay she called from OM's place, after driving for hours not knowing where to land, asking forgiveness, apologizing and begging to let her back.
> I wasn't even Plan Z for my wife.
> I don't see Plan B in this case at all.
> As a matter of fact, beyond for the cheating itself, the horrible fight of the confrontation and being kicked out almost every single of WWs actions are what every - willing to R - BS would wish from their WS. Even after there was no hope anymore. Are we reading a different thread? I think it would be wise to skip another member's post and only read OPs to reach conclusions. Maybe, a timeline with the main events would help.
> 
> 
> Man, I'm glad to hear the date went well, sounds very intense. Give yourself time to digest, process it, to interpret your feelings. Are you planning another date? Did you ask her to mantain things in secret? Can you confide your wife's roomate would comply with the secret part?


No time to go back thru 18 pages now but there was a timeline where she stayed with Brad for a week. Also she boasted about the change to coworkers. Also she had the affair in the first place....

Therefore I would wonder if, initially, she went to Brad, said "I am yours and here to live with you" and found that was not what he wanted. I would need to talk through that, I think. Not saying that is how it was, just wondering....

Even if that is the case of course, she threw away her marriage only to realise she was being used for sex. It must have been a cruel awakening, and you are right that her reported actions since deserve some credit.


----------



## Rookie4

Hi, everybody! I'm just back from doing a little Christmas shopping, and thought I'd talk about our (2)! dates. We did a lot of talking and a whole lot more listening. Last night was maily about the affair and our breakup. This morning was mainly about her IC and work she is doing to better herself, much of which I didn't know or care to learn about, before.
I must admit she is doing a lot to get to the bottom of her issues and has made a lot of progress. Without getting too specific, she is getting a much better handle on her anger and how she expresses it. Her counselor is very integrity and responsibility oriented, so my ex is having to face her bad choices without any sugar-coating. Which is good, IMO.
We had a very nice lunch and I went shopping. I commited to nothing, as I'm not ready to do so. However, I agreed to have the Holidays together, like in the past.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> No time to go back thru 18 pages now but there was a timeline where she stayed with Brad for a week. Also she boasted about the change to coworkers. Also she had the affair in the first place....
> 
> Therefore I would wonder if, initially, she went to Brad, said "I am yours and here to live with you" and found that was not what he wanted. I would need to talk through that, I think. Not saying that is how it was, just wondering....
> 
> Even if that is the case of course, she threw away her marriage only to realise she was being used for sex. It must have been a cruel awakening, and you are right that her reported actions since deserve some credit.


Wazza, it was actually 4 nights, I mis-spoke because I didn't really know. According to her Mom, she left Brad and he called for several days trying to convince her to come back, but she wouldn't talk to him. I do believe my MIL about this.


----------



## Rookie4

By the way, she gave her notice to the hospital that she was quitting and informed the head of her department of the reason for it. This Doctor was very helpful and understanding, so he gave her a reference to another hospital and she will be starting there after the New Year. So, no more Brad. Although his comeuppance is stilll in the future.


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> By the way, she gave her notice to the hospital that she was quitting and informed the head of her department of the reason for it. This Doctor was very helpful and understanding, so he gave her a reference to another hospital and she will be starting there after the New Year. So, no more Brad. Although his comeuppance is stilll in the future.


Shows great commitment on her part, imo.

*Rookie* - I implore you to resolve the desire to kick Brad's azz. 
Nothing good can come from it for you. jmho


----------



## warlock07

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, it was actually 4 nights, I mis-spoke because I didn't really know. According to her Mom, she left Brad and he called for several days trying to convince her to come back, but she wouldn't talk to him. I do believe my MIL about this.


Not saying you shouldn't, but have a reasonable doubt about your MIL..Mothers would kill if that means her daughter will have a happy marriage..


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> Hi, everybody! I'm just back from doing a little Christmas shopping, and thought I'd talk about our (2)! dates. We did a lot of talking and a whole lot more listening. Last night was maily about the affair and our breakup. This morning was mainly about her IC and work she is doing to better herself, much of which I didn't know or care to learn about, before.
> I must admit she is doing a lot to get to the bottom of her issues and has made a lot of progress. Without getting too specific, she is getting a much better handle on her anger and how she expresses it. Her counselor is very integrity and responsibility oriented, so my ex is having to face her bad choices without any sugar-coating. Which is good, IMO.
> We had a very nice lunch and I went shopping. I commited to nothing, as I'm not ready to do so. However, I agreed to have the Holidays together, like in the past.


You have a WW that acted just like all the other WW's during her affair.

You now have a FWW as in former, that is showing remorse and doing all the things necessary to recover the marriage. Not all WW make the transition of WW to FWW.

Unfortunately too many people here do not see this. They just want to be ranter's ranting about the past. Jealous that their WW's were not half as hot as your WW, not as remorseful as your WW, and not willing to do the recovery work that your WW is doing.

You are fortunate that you have a repentent WW and a MIL that is behind you 100% and will not be an enabler allowing her daugther to have any more affairs.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Now we are jumping directly from one year already divorced, don't look back, to a tentative date to drafting the conditions to R... in two days!
> I think it's premature but if is R is now more a possibility writing down the conditions, dealbreakers are a must.
> As any other affair: "Not friends of marriage" must go. The way to adress who is "friend of the marriage" and who's not must be thought and discussed too.
> My POV is except extreme circunstances I can't think now (changing and making amends themselves to BS's entire satisfaction), every enabler, cheerleaders are completely out. Dropping all toxicity is a must.
> 
> Ask for the standard requirements, confide in us.
> 
> Man, what about GF/FBW now?


Acabado, I'm not going to say anything to the GF until I have made a decision or I have sex with the ex-wife, whichever comes first. We are in a FWB relationship so we don't talk about our private lives to each other. I don't really know any more about her life than she does about mine. I will not, however, lead her on or lie to her. Besides what could I say to her right now? I don't even know what is going to happen, myself, just yet.


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Not saying you shouldn't, but have a reasonable doubt about your MIL..Mothers would kill if that means her daughter will have a happy marriage..


I've thought about this, Warlock, really I have, but it just doesn't seem like she would. Besides others have said the same thing. that Brad tried for quite a while to get her to come back to him, but that she had turned her back on him.


----------



## TDSC60

Have you got any friends at the old job who can verify that Brad is still there and that he does not transfer to the new hospital?

Do the right thing for YOU. You are taking it day by day and that is a good thing. Time is your friend - go slow. Do not let a surge of emotions overwhelm you.

Looking back at your posts it appears that your Ex wanted something that was forbidden. Something that she did not have. She liked the excitement of the chase. Do you know if she did the chasing or was it Brad?

Just be careful not to be the next guy in her sights. The chase has started. You really need to be absolutely sure that you are not being chased as something that is out of her reach so she HAS to have it. Not really sure if I said that correctly.

Again - time is your friend.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> Not saying you shouldn't, but have a reasonable doubt about your MIL..Mothers would kill if that means her daughter will have a happy marriage..


Well, this is where my earlier comment about 100% honesty matters.

Right now if I were Rookie, the past would only interest me as a clue to what the future holds. 

Four nights vs a week doesn't matter. Either way she left him for Brad.

Even being plan B (if he is) might not matter. The worry about being plan B is that the wife will be looking for another plan A and not being committed to the marriage. Based on the last two years there seems to be reason to believe there is real remorse. And to me that is what matters, not the details of ancient history.


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> Acabado, I'm not going to say anything to the GF until I have made a decision or I have sex with the ex-wife, whichever comes first. We are in a FWB relationship so we don't talk about our private lives to each other. I don't really know any more about her life than she does about mine. I will not, however, lead her on or lie to her. Besides what could I say to her right now? I don't even know what is going to happen, myself, just yet.


You owe it to your wife to tell her all that transpired with the multitude of women and that you're in a FWB relationship right now. 

You want the high ground on the honesty part. You don't want her to think this new relationship is based on any lies.


----------



## Wazza

theroad said:


> You have a WW that acted just like all the other WW's during her affair.
> 
> You now have a FWW as in former, that is showing remorse and doing all the things necessary to recover the marriage. Not all WW make the transition of WW to FWW.
> 
> Unfortunately too many people here do not see this. They just want to be ranter's ranting about the past. Jealous that their WW's were not half as hot as your WW, not as remorseful as your WW, and not willing to do the recovery work that your WW is doing.
> 
> You are fortunate that you have a repentent WW and a MIL that is behind you 100% and will not be an enabler allowing her daugther to have any more affairs.


It looks like that, maybe. And I hope it is that. But you need to take time to make sure it is all real.


----------



## TDSC60

larry.gray said:


> You owe it to your wife to tell her all that transpired with the multitude of women and that you're in a FWB relationship right now.
> 
> You want the high ground on the honesty part. You don't want her to think this new relationship is based on any lies.


If she asks about other women or current relationships I would be honest and tell her. I really would not volunteer anything at this point nor would I attempt to hide anything.

At this time he does not owe her anything, not even a chance at R. 

They have been on a couple of dates. Not yet time to bare his soul.


----------



## old timer

*Rookie:* Since you're divorced - keep your alpha on - regardless. You'll feel better about yourself, whether you two R or not. (Thanks *Machiavelli*)

Alpha Game: The socio-sexual hierarchy

*re.* revealing info about your trysts since before the D and after...if you two go into MC - you're gonna have to own up to them, but I see *NO* reason to give out info at this point. (don't kiss and tell, so to speak)


----------



## larry.gray

TDSC60 said:


> At this time he does not owe her anything, not even a chance at R.


He doesn't _owe_ her a chance at reconciliation. But if he does then he should give her full honesty. 

I don't think it will matter to her. In fact, I'm certain she'll blame herself for it happening. Which is good....


----------



## Acabado

This.
It's not he owns her explanations for his single life. She already knows he was not living like monk. She will ask, maybe dropping it casually. If radical honesty is what he demands he owns honesty too. It would be a new relationship, with tons of baggage but new nonetheless. They are divorce becuase she screwed up.


----------



## larry.gray

One more positive score for Rookie with regards to his ExWW's behavior: Rookie already said that his wife is blaming herself for him being with other women. 

She isn't considering his post marriage liaisons as making them even on the score. That's why a revenge affair fails at evening the score: the score isn't even for the BS, but the WS thinks it is.


----------



## old timer

Is somebody keeping score?


----------



## larry.gray

old timer said:


> Is somebody keeping score?


Yes. The score is that for him to reconcile, he's got to accept that it will NEVER be equal.

End the end he's got to accept that and not make it little victories that hurt her, particularly if he really does love her and wants to make it a real R. But this little one goes a long ways towards making it a little easier pill to swallow.


----------



## old timer

No score - to me - means we are equal...
or did I miss something?


----------



## MattMatt

I reconciled with my wife.

But could I have reconciled with _*this?*_


> She said that he was a much better lover than me, was younger, more fit and had a bigger "tool", than I did.... Since then she has been trying to get me to give her another chance, saying she was lying about the sex being better with Brad, just to anger me and get me to fight for her.... I talked to some of her co-workers and they say that she bragged about getting "steak" instead of "hamburger", and that a younger man was just what she needed.


You know, I do not think I could.


----------



## old timer

Each to his own, *MattMatt* - each to his own


----------



## Wazza

MattMatt said:


> I reconciled with my wife.
> 
> But could I have reconciled with _*this?*_
> 
> 
> You know, I do not think I could.


See my earlier post....not as blatant as that but I kind of did.

Marriage is about more than sex. The sex is important and has to be mutually satisfying, but I have many friends who have built great marriages with someone who is not a great sex God but brings other things to the table.

In the same way, I am pretty certain that if what I wanted was just sex there are better lovers than my wife there....but as John Lennon once said, nothing beats being held by that special person.


----------



## Acabado

MattMatt said:


> I reconciled with my wife.
> 
> But could I have reconciled with _*this?*_
> 
> 
> You know, I do not think I could.


Well Matt, your wife informed you in advance she would have an affair with OM if he ever came to town, time before if happenned. I asume she felt OM had some acomplishments. When OM came town she went ahead. Still you reconciled. You never know.

To be honest in my screwedupness scale your wife's is way worse then Rookie4's. His case is the cliche, banal, average MLC affair. And mine even worse than yours!


----------



## old timer

We are ALL equal, imo


----------



## Rookie4

Larry Gray, I did tell her about the women I slept with, between the time she left the home until the divorce was final, because she was still legally my wife. After the divorce was final, it was and is, none of her business. If I choose to give her a chance at winning me back, I will then end any relationships I'm in. Hey, I'm honest.


----------



## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> I reconciled with my wife.
> 
> But could I have reconciled with _*this?*_
> 
> 
> You know, I do not think I could.


Matt, at the time I couldn't either. That's why we are divorced.


----------



## Rookie4

Old Timer, I will do to Brad what I said that I will do. I know that you are concerned about me, but it is something that I MUST do, for my self.


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> Old Timer, I will do to Brad what I said that I will do. I know that you are concerned about me, but it is something that I MUST do, for my self.


Add me to the list of those that worry about you if you're serious about going through with it. The penalties can be quite severe. If he decides to turn you in you could be facing years in prison.

Am I correct in this assumption: Before you were considering reconciling, you didn't feel the need to but now do?

If so, why?


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> Add me to the list of those that worry about you if you're serious about going through with it. The penalties can be quite severe. If he decides to turn you in you could be facing years in prison.
> 
> Am I correct in this assumption: Before you were considering reconciling, you didn't feel the need to but now do?
> 
> If so, why?


No, I was always going to f**k him up, It is simply a matter of getting him alone. Without witnesses he can go fish.


----------



## SadandAngry

The POS Brad is not worth the consequences to you. If he is like most, he will have no reservation hiding behind the police, having the system punish you for punishing him. If anyone should take that risk, it should be your xW, not you.


----------



## SadandAngry

Rookie4 said:


> No, I was always going to f**k him up, It is simply a matter of getting him alone. Without witnesses he can go fish.


With or without witnesses, you will automatically be suspect #1.


----------



## tom67

SadandAngry said:


> With or without witnesses, you will automatically be suspect #1.


Find a way to really hurt him say getting him fired? Does he have a gf or w? No need for prison for this scum but I'm not gonna stop you


----------



## Wazza

Big mistake Rookie to beat him up Rookie. What do you do for a living? How does a criminal record affect your career prospects? Tens of thousands in fines and legal costs...you got that sort of cash spare?


----------



## Rookie4

SadandAngry said:


> With or without witnesses, you will automatically be suspect #1.


AS I said before, I'm an old Hillbilly, being suspect #1 doesn't bother me in the least, it's what they can prove , that counts. And it will be my word against his.


----------



## Rookie4

As my old Daddy used to say, "there isn't a road that doesn't have turns". I'm patient.


----------



## tom67

Rookie4 said:


> As my old Daddy used to say, "there isn't a road that doesn't have turns". I'm patient.


Believe me I'm old school I don't want a good man getting screwed over for gutter tripe


----------



## SadandAngry

Rookie4 said:


> AS I said before, I'm an old Hillbilly, being suspect #1 doesn't bother me in the least, it's what they can prove , that counts. And it will be my word against his.


Yes, and in this case, you have motive, you are awaiting opportunity, he will be telling the truth, you will not. His word will be more believable than yours.


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> AS I said before, I'm an old Hillbilly, being suspect #1 doesn't bother me in the least, it's what they can prove , that counts. And it will be my word against his.


Just don't be letting the police or prosecutor discover this thread then.


----------



## Coffee Amore

larry.gray said:


> Just don't be letting the police or prosecutor discover this thread then.


Yup, stuff you put on the internet is forever even if you delete it.


----------



## Paladin

All the piss and vinegar "my c0ck is bigger" machismo revenge crap put aside. Let's say you do manage to get him alone, you start your revenge fantasy and he pulls a knife or a gun. Or he manages to grab a bottle, stick or whatever piece of trash happens to be in reach. Is it really worth the possibility (no matter how remote) of never seeing your kids again? There is so much drama in everyday life, why seek out more? He already has to live with being a home wrecker, and if you and her manage to R he will have to live with the fact that you get to live the "happily ever after" life while he gets to wank off alone.


----------



## Almostrecovered

so I am assuming he got banned for making violent threats?

soooo not worth it, ask Juicer


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Good luck to him and all that. But truthfully his story was starting to get under my skin. I realize that his WW started this mess and emasculated him over this Brad guy. But he got his revenge on his wife 10 fold with the 20 women he banged between the time he found out about the affair up to the divorce. On top of that he still got plenty of action afterwards. This plus what he wrote about messing up Brad during the last few pages tells me 2 things about the OP.

1) He clearly is into revenge, and what I sensed about him banging these women were in fact revenge affairs. He did everything in his power to make his wife feel the pain of seeing him sleeping around. I would bet that he escalated his sexual encounters the moment he saw his wife expressing remorse and wanting to try to reconcile.

2) He can't seriously be hanging on the fact that he feels emasculated still by thinking Brad is bigger and better than him. 25+ women have likely more than assured him that he was plenty of man in the love making arena. The guy said he's over 7" long and has significant girth. I'd be really surprised if his ego was bruised over his crank. The story is not logical on this. 

3) For how patient he was willing to be in order to get revenge on Brad, this clearly shows that he was a score keeper and everything he did was designed to maximize the pain of his XW and to humiliate her. He's so far ahead of her now in wh0ring around that I'd almost feel bad for her if they decided to reconcile. She started it - no doubt - but he ended it with a payload 10 times the size of his wife's first salvo. 

I think rookie reconciles with his wife now because IMHO the rookie now thinks that he has inflicted enough vengeance on his wife that the debt is now paid in full and he extracted usury payments on top of it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I truly "get" wanting to beat the crap outta OM. But I also want to blow up Comcast, I want to ram the slow people in the fast lane, I want to be naked at drug store.

but you shouldn't always do what you want


----------



## SomedayDig

Damn...I just got back from the drug store. I shoulda been naked.


Oh, and violence never solved anything. It's more fun to be covert and put them on cheaterville


----------



## larry.gray

Almostrecovered said:


> I truly "get" wanting to beat the crap outta OM. But I also want to blow up Comcast, I want to ram the slow people in the fast lane, I want to be naked at drug store.
> 
> but you shouldn't always do what you want


I swear ramming people should be legal sometimes.

Like when you're waiting at a green light because the traffic is backed up in front of you and some nitwit makes a turn on red right in front of you.


----------



## Acabado

Almostrecovered said:


> so I am assuming he got banned for making violent threats?
> 
> soooo not worth it, ask Juicer


Time ago someone started a thread about this subject, suggesting a way to be informed about why any member were banned, whether the ban is temporary or permanenet...
I believe mods rejected it.

I'm really curious to know. I believe he was mostly venting. Dunno.


----------



## Juicer

Almostrecovered said:


> so I am assuming he got banned for making violent threats?
> 
> soooo not worth it, ask Juicer


I never made violent threats. 

I did violent things. 

But let's not get into that for various...legal reasons.


----------



## Almostrecovered

sorry Juicer, didn't mean to imply you had a cooler head


----------



## Rookie4

Having just returned from my enforced hiatus, I would like to say that I apologize for my comments and have decided to leave the question of Brad and his comeuppance alone, and concentrate on the situation with my ex-wife.


----------



## Almostrecovered

fwiw, there are better means to get at OM, like cheaterville.com

so what's the latest?


----------



## Rookie4

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Good luck to him and all that. But truthfully his story was starting to get under my skin. I realize that his WW started this mess and emasculated him over this Brad guy. But he got his revenge on his wife 10 fold with the 20 women he banged between the time he found out about the affair up to the divorce. On top of that he still got plenty of action afterwards. This plus what he wrote about messing up Brad during the last few pages tells me 2 things about the OP.
> 
> 1) He clearly is into revenge, and what I sensed about him banging these women were in fact revenge affairs. He did everything in his power to make his wife feel the pain of seeing him sleeping around. I would bet that he escalated his sexual encounters the moment he saw his wife expressing remorse and wanting to try to reconcile.
> 
> 2) He can't seriously be hanging on the fact that he feels emasculated still by thinking Brad is bigger and better than him. 25+ women have likely more than assured him that he was plenty of man in the love making arena. The guy said he's over 7" long and has significant girth. I'd be really surprised if his ego was bruised over his crank. The story is not logical on this.
> 
> 3) For how patient he was willing to be in order to get revenge on Brad, this clearly shows that he was a score keeper and everything he did was designed to maximize the pain of his XW and to humiliate her. He's so far ahead of her now in wh0ring around that I'd almost feel bad for her if they decided to reconcile. She started it - no doubt - but he ended it with a payload 10 times the size of his wife's first salvo.
> 
> I think rookie reconciles with his wife now because IMHO the rookie now thinks that he has inflicted enough vengeance on his wife that the debt is now paid in full and he extracted usury payments on top of it.


Plan 9, nothing you say here has any merit. I clearly said in one of my first posts, that I was only thinking about revenge and punishment, didn't I? So what is your point?
In my opinion, nothing I did following her cheating, and disrespectful comments. and leaving the home was my fault, in any way. What is more, she agrees with me , 100% I know that she did call me to come home and I did refuse, but I'm thinking that most BS's would have done the same thing, when she told me that she was at Brad's. I would also like to point out that NEVER , EVER, did I try to hide my activities, lie to her or to anyone else, or badmouth her to anyone. I have no interest in harming my ex-wifes-'s relationship with our kids or to either family.
Simply put, I felt that my marriage was over , FROM THE MOMENT OF HER BEGINNING THE AFFAIR, and after that moment, I was and am, a free agent.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9, nothing you say here has any merit. I clearly said in one of my first posts, that I was only thinking about revenge and punishment, didn't I? So what is your point?
> In my opinion, nothing I did following her cheating, and disrespectful comments. and leaving the home was my fault, in any way. What is more, she agrees with me , 100% I know that she did call me to come home and I did refuse, but I'm thinking that most BS's would have done the same thing, when she told me that she was at Brad's. I would also like to point out that NEVER , EVER, did I try to hide my activities, lie to her or to anyone else, or badmouth her to anyone. I have no interest in harming my ex-wifes-'s relationship with our kids or to either family.
> Simply put, I felt that my marriage was over , FROM THE MOMENT OF HER BEGINNING THE AFFAIR, and after that moment, I was and am, a free agent.


And I never encourage revenge affairs because of the permanent hurt and damage they create.

But I do agree with showing the STBX or ex how quickly they can be replaced and how marketable the BS really is.

It is a true example of not being someone's Plan B.

If that is what it takes to "defog" the situation then who are we to judge.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9, nothing you say here has any merit. I clearly said in one of my first posts, that I was only thinking about revenge and punishment, didn't I? So what is your point?
> In my opinion, nothing I did following her cheating, and disrespectful comments. and leaving the home was my fault, in any way. What is more, she agrees with me , 100% I know that she did call me to come home and I did refuse, but I'm thinking that most BS's would have done the same thing, when she told me that she was at Brad's. I would also like to point out that NEVER , EVER, did I try to hide my activities, lie to her or to anyone else, or badmouth her to anyone. I have no interest in harming my ex-wifes-'s relationship with our kids or to either family.
> Simply put, I felt that my marriage was over , FROM THE MOMENT OF HER BEGINNING THE AFFAIR, and after that moment, I was and am, a free agent.


I stand by my comments. This is what I cannot understand about your situation. I completely get it that you want to let the WW know that you can get attractive women to be with you, want her to feel jealousy that you are doing so well and that you needed to affirm your sexual prowess after the wife emasculated you. However, what I find odd is that after you recognized that you still have it and that you still had feelings for your wife, then one of 2 things should have happened: 1) You right her off for good, enjoy your kids and get on with your life or 2) you recognize that you want to give it another try and try to reconcile with her awhile ago when you first saw true remorse from her. IMHO, you took a middle road where you kept tabs on your XW, continued to interact with her circle of family and friends and made it well known that you were getting a lot of action. When you factor in the comments you made about Brad in this thread, i.e. that you were a patient person that will serve up revenge in your way on your time...well, what other conclusions am I to draw?

I get that your wife hurt you deeply. But you also realize that you made her feel pretty crappy too after she found out how desirable you are to the ladies. You accomplished your goals and you lived the dream that a lot of BS's would love to be able to do. However, it feels like you were a cat playing with a ball of yarn after this has gone on for awhile. I can't help but feel that you strung your XW along for a long time. At some point, you either go for R or shut it down 100% and cut all contact permanently. This in between posture looked like you were enjoying yourself playing with your ball of yarn. JMHO.


----------



## warlock07

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I stand by my comments. This is what I cannot understand about your situation. I completely get it that you want to let the WW know that you can get attractive women to be with you, want her to feel jealousy that you are doing so well and that you needed to affirm your sexual prowess after the wife emasculated you. However, what I find odd is that after you recognized that you still have it and that you still had feelings for your wife, then one of 2 things should have happened: 1) You right her off for good, enjoy your kids and get on with your life or 2) you recognize that you want to give it another try and try to reconcile with her awhile ago when you first saw true remorse from her. IMHO, you took a middle road where you kept tabs on your XW, continued to interact with her circle of family and friends and made it well known that you were getting a lot of action. When you factor in the comments you made about Brad in this thread, i.e. that you were a patient person that will serve up revenge in your way on your time...well, what other conclusions am I to draw?
> 
> I get that your wife hurt you deeply. But you also realize that you made her feel pretty crappy too after she found out how desirable you are to the ladies. You accomplished your goals and you lived the dream that a lot of BS's would love to be able to do. However, it feels like you were a cat playing with a ball of yarn after this has gone on for awhile. I can't help but feel that you strung your XW along for a long time. At some point, you either go for R or shut it down 100% and cut all contact permanently. This in between posture looked like you were enjoying yourself playing with your ball of yarn. JMHO.



not sure what your problem with him is. lots of assumptions


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

warlock07 said:


> not sure what your problem with him is. lots of assumptions


I have nothing personal against him, but I know what I see. If you read through the entire thread, you can piece most of it together. I may make a few assumptions, but I am almost 100% positive that I know what the score is here. This guy is more cold and calculating than he'll admit. That's the vibe I get.

I think we agree on things in most cases, but clearly we see this situation in different ways.


----------



## alte Dame

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This guy is more cold and calculating than he'll admit. That's the vibe I get.


I think he wants to be cold and calculating. He can't really be, though, and that is the big problem for him, in my opinion.

This thread is almost Shakespearean to me. The W didn't just emasculate her H with an affair. She actually came out with the words that would destroy him. So he sets out to rebuild himself. He needs to show strength, so he proves with countless other women that she is wrong; he divorces her and moves on.

He's done all that he thinks he can do to repair his ego and life, but there's one big problem - He still loves her.

He has balanced the ego scale and now wants to understand whether he can risk his heart again.

Nothing in any of this sounds easy. How can anyone really advise? Shakespeare would have ramped up the drama for the stage, but the message would have been the same, which is that everyday people have tragedy in their lives that they can't really understand or cope with.

I think Rookie is starting to believe that his W is sincere & doesn't want to throw away his chance of love with her because of his ego. It's impossible to really know if his W has changed, so he agonizes. My feeling is that he will choose to try again & that his W will not herself agonize over the dozens of other women (this, of course, doesn't begin to address the feelings of the other women, which is itself an issue for OP....).


----------



## CH

So did Rookie finally get the answer he needed to his question?

In other words don't get back together and they both move on with their lives separately.


----------



## Acabado

She got busted, she was cruel afterwards, she left to OMs. 
He told dealbreaker, done. Told her good bye.
Since then the divorce procedings were that, procedings. He was a free agent who got to decide his behavior. I think he did fine. That's what I recomend. To f0ck around. That's the way he helped himself to heal. Even if flaunted it to XW (which I don't see where we can read that)... so?
Time has passed and the anger subsided enough to consider a second round with the love of his life.
I don't see anything wrong with he has been doing. At all.

Rookie, what happened with FBW/GF?


----------



## SadandAngry

alte Dame said:


> I think he wants to be cold and calculating. He can't really be, though, and that is the big problem for him, in my opinion.
> 
> This thread is almost Shakespearean to me. The W didn't just emasculate her H with an affair. She actually came out with the words that would destroy him. So he sets out to rebuild himself. He needs to show strength, so he proves with countless other women that she is wrong; he divorces her and moves on.
> 
> He's done all that he thinks he can do to repair his ego and life, but there's one big problem - He still loves her.
> 
> He has balanced the ego scale and now wants to understand whether he can risk his heart again.
> 
> Nothing in any of this sounds easy. How can anyone really advise? Shakespeare would have ramped up the drama for the stage, but the message would have been the same, which is that everyday people have tragedy in their lives that they can't really understand or cope with.
> 
> I think Rookie is starting to believe that his W is sincere & doesn't want to throw away his chance of love with her because of his ego. It's impossible to really know if his W has changed, so he agonizes. My feeling is that he will choose to try again & that his W will not herself agonize over the dozens of other women (this, of course, doesn't begin to address the feelings of the other women, which is itself an issue for OP....).


If this were truly Shakespearean, Rookie could exact his revenge on Brad, and get away with it too!


----------



## Rookie4

Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9, nothing you say here has any merit. I clearly said in one of my first posts, that I was only thinking about revenge and punishment, didn't I? So what is your point?
> In my opinion, nothing I did following her cheating, and disrespectful comments. and leaving the home was my fault, in any way. What is more, she agrees with me , 100% I know that she did call me to come home and I did refuse, but I'm thinking that most BS's would have done the same thing, when she told me that she was at Brad's. I would also like to point out that NEVER , EVER, did I try to hide my activities, lie to her or to anyone else, or badmouth her to anyone. I have no interest in harming my ex-wifes-'s relationship with our kids or to either family.
> Simply put, I felt that my marriage was over , FROM THE MOMENT OF HER BEGINNING THE AFFAIR, and after that moment, I was and am, a free agent.


Plan 9, you couldn't be more wrong. What I'm doing is being cautious. I'm not going to be played again by my ex or anybody else. When I said she would have to prove herself, I didn't mean for a few weeks or months but long-term improvement. I'm no longer in revenge mode, but I have found out that there are good women out there and I'm not going to settle for being a plan B or renewed marriage without CONCRETE evidence that there will be no repeat and also that her repugnant remarks were the result of anger and not her true feelings.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Clearly I'm misreading the clues if I'm zigging when everyone else is zagging. Rookie, I'm outta here. I'll only muddy the waters for you if I post in this thread any further. Good luck.


----------



## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9, you couldn't be more wrong. What I'm doing is being cautious. I'm not going to be played again by my ex or anybody else. When I said she would have to prove herself, I didn't mean for a few weeks or months but long-term improvement. I'm no longer in revenge mode, but I have found out that there are good women out there and I'm not going to settle for being a plan B or renewed marriage without CONCRETE evidence that there will be no repeat and also that her repugnant remarks were the result of anger and not her true feelings.


Anger or malice?


----------



## old timer

MattMatt said:


> Anger or malice?


Anger sometimes makes people say malicious things


----------



## Juicer

Rookie4 said:


> Plan 9, nothing you say here has any merit. I clearly said in one of my first posts, that I was only thinking about revenge and punishment, didn't I? So what is your point?


Just going to tell you, revenge, is not worth it. 
I got mine. And the costs that came with it, were devastating. Financially, emotionally, physically, hell, I got an active police report on me because of what I did. 

Secondly, it doesn't help. 
Yea, my mind movies and triggers went away for a few months. But they cam back with date triggers, as it was this time of year the A started last year. So my triggers and mind movies are back. So it didn't do me really, any good. 



> *In my opinion, nothing I did following her cheating, and disrespectful comments. and leaving the home was my fault, in any way. *What is more, *she agrees with me *, 100% I know that she did call me to come home and I did refuse, but I'm thinking that most BS's would have done the same thing, when she told me that she was at Brad's. I would also like to point out that NEVER , EVER, did I try to hide my activities, lie to her or to anyone else, or badmouth her to anyone. I have no interest in harming my ex-wifes-'s relationship with our kids or to either family.
> Simply put, I felt that my marriage was over , FROM THE MOMENT OF HER BEGINNING THE AFFAIR, and after that moment, I was and am, a free agent.


Yea, I had that train of thought too. 
I OD on oral steroids. I didn't blame it on me acting in a stupid way. I blamed it on my wife, ripping my heart out, stomping it into the ground, and then wiping her shoes on it. 
But here is what it comes down to:
It was her decision to cheat. 
Just like it was my decision to OD. 
And it was your decision to go out and bone every chick in the neighborhood. 
We can either sit around and play the blame game, or we can all come to realize, we are responsible for our own actions. 

Secondly, yes, your ex is going to agree with you that it is 100% her fault. I am sure any ex would. She is hysterical to get you back into her life. She will agree to anything you say. 

Anyway, that's my $.02


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks to all. Plan 9, please continue to post. You are giving me a counterpoint, which is very valuable and is actually helping me to clarify my thoughts. I detect no malicious intent on your part, just healthy disagreement.


----------



## Rookie4

Juicer, I think we should leave the revenge ideas alone for a while , I don't want to get banned again.


----------



## Almostrecovered

so have you said anything to FWB yet?


----------



## OldWolf57

Rookie, you have my support.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> so have you said anything to FWB yet?


I haven't said anything to her, just yet. I guess that I'm reluctant to let her go, sort of like hedging my bets. I'm being selfish, I know. WE are going to meet Friday night, and I will tell her , face to face.
I don't want to burn my bridges, but I don't want her to feel like my plan B, either. So I will tell her about the situation and let her decide, if she still wants my company. She is a really nice Lady, and is VERY good in bed, but I simply don't feel any "spark', with her, and believe me, I have tried to. Regardless of my ex-wife, we both realize that we are approaching a crossroads. She wanting more and me wanting the status quo.


----------



## Rookie4

I don't know what to think. This is the third or fourth time this has happened to me, since my ex-wife left our home.
I will meet a woman, carefully explain that I want a FWB (sex and recreation), but they always seem to want more than that, from me. I'm beginning to think that I might just be in love with my ex-wife, more than I ever thought.


----------



## Malaise

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know what to think. This is the third or fourth time this has happened to me, since my ex-wife left our home.
> I will meet a woman, carefully explain that I want a FWB (sex and recreation), but they always seem to want more than that, from me. I'm beginning to think that I might just be in love with my ex-wife, more than I ever thought.


Maybe that's why you don't feel the spark.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Well you're a good "catch"

Damn shame your wife threw it away


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know what to think. This is the third or fourth time this has happened to me, since my ex-wife left our home.
> I will meet a woman, carefully explain that I want a FWB (sex and recreation), but they always seem to want more than that, from me. I'm beginning to think that I might just be in love with my ex-wife, more than I ever thought.


Can I ask a really stupid question and pardon me if it was already addressed.

Why can't you just have a relationship with your ex without making anything permanent.....ever? Can't you just explore the relationship and see how it goes while keeping it light and without commitment? If she is fun to be with today be with her today. When she is no longer fun to be around, don't be around her. If she starts to demonstrate selfishness again you already know you have options. By the way, she knows you have options now too.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie can correct me if I'm
Wrong but I don't think he has plans to jump back into marriage right away and is going super slow now.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree, I have no intention of re-marrying for a long time, if ever. If we do R and it is succesful, maybe then, but not if I have any doubts, whatsoever.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Well you're a good "catch"
> 
> Damn shame your wife threw it away


I think she is well aware of it, by know. Actually I think she was aware of it back then, too, but I wasn't having any.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know what to think. This is the third or fourth time this has happened to me, since my ex-wife left our home.
> I will meet a woman, carefully explain that I want a FWB (sex and recreation), but they always seem to want more than that, from me. *I'm beginning to think that I might just be in love with my ex-wife, more than I ever thought*.


Like we couldn't tell......


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> bfree, I have no intention of re-marrying for a long time, if ever. If we do R and it is succesful, maybe then, but not if I have any doubts, whatsoever.


No, you should never marry her again. She needs to always stay in compete mode now that she knows you have options. As soon as you tie that knot again the competition is over. She needs to continually know that you can pull up stakes at any time. I don't care if you are both in wheelchairs you...never...marry...again!


----------



## alte Dame

I sense that you love your wife, too. I'm a romantic and think you only live once, so I would be tempted to go for a relationship.

And don't kid yourself. If you two get back together and it works well - if she's steady in her devotion - you'll revisit the idea of marriage. I'll bet the farm.

Maybe she's learned her lesson. I don't know. I never thought I'd be typing this given your original few posts....


----------



## happyman64

bfree said:


> No, you should never marry her again. She needs to always stay in compete mode now that she knows you have options. As soon as you tie that knot again the competition is over. She needs to continually know that you can pull up stakes at any time. I don't care if you are both in wheelchairs you...never...marry...again!


You know what happens to people who say never?

They usually end up eating there own words.

Life is too short Bfree.....

You'll see.

And it is Rookie's decision. 

There are many WS's who are remorseful and not just on TAM. You know what makes them different? They realize what they did and what they truly lost.

They truly value their Battered Spouse. Yes they blew up their worlds and everyone else's around them to learn that lesson.

It is hard enough in life admitting our little mistakes. Imagine the waywards that admit to their huge mistakes and want to get back what they threw away.

Who are we to judge them. That is better left in the Battered Spouse's hands or God's.


----------



## michzz

happyman64 said:


> And it is Rookie's decision.
> 
> There are many WS's who are remorseful and not just on TAM. You know what makes them different? They realize what they did and what they truly lost.
> 
> They truly value their Battered Spouse. Yes they blew up their worlds and everyone else's around them to learn that lesson.
> 
> It is hard enough in life admitting our little mistakes. Imagine the waywards that admit to their huge mistakes and want to get back what they threw away.
> 
> Who are we to judge them. That is better left in the Battered Spouse's hands or God's.


Maybe we can't judge in a final damnation kind of way, but a spouse who has been harmed by such a person making a huge what you call mistake can certainly judge them deficient as a life partner and refuse to reconcile.

Actions have consequences.


----------



## happyman64

michzz said:


> Maybe we can't judge in a final damnation kind of way, but a spouse who has been harmed by such a person making a huge what you call mistake can certainly judge them deficient as a life partner and refuse to reconcile.
> 
> Actions have consequences.


Absolutely true.

Actions have consequences. But no where is it written that those consequences have to be felt, lived or endured infinitely.

Some spouses have the capability to forgive and move on with their lives.

Some spouses have the capability to forgive and renew that love. That in itself could lead to a new, far healthier marriage.

Some loves never die. That is what Reconciliation is all about.

But it is not for everybody.


----------



## indiecat

Why not take it slow and easy? If you feel comfortable and at ease together that is all you need for now.

Myself, when with my h I feel tense and my chest gets tight. That gut feeling. But if you are happy when with her, then take it one day at a time.


----------



## Acabado

About FWB


Rookie4 said:


> I don't want to burn my bridges


This is wrong. You must let her go, you mujst end it with her. You don't offer her stay while you date your XW; what if she accept it? Then it's suddenly right? Being "honest" doesn't preserve your integrity. The offer is wrong itself, are you a cake eater? 
In the other... the same aplies to your XW, if you are "dating" her you can't have any kind of relationship or someone else as a FBW in the pocket just in case. No matter how "slow" things you want to be or the plans you have in mind.
It's wrong. Period. No grey areas.

Don't become a cheater yourself. Not even go near it.


----------



## bfree

happyman64 said:


> You know what happens to people who say never?
> 
> They usually end up eating there own words.
> 
> Life is too short Bfree.....
> 
> You'll see.
> 
> And it is Rookie's decision.
> 
> There are many WS's who are remorseful and not just on TAM. You know what makes them different? They realize what they did and what they truly lost.
> 
> They truly value their Battered Spouse. Yes they blew up their worlds and everyone else's around them to learn that lesson.
> 
> It is hard enough in life admitting our little mistakes. Imagine the waywards that admit to their huge mistakes and want to get back what they threw away.
> 
> Who are we to judge them. That is better left in the Battered Spouse's hands or God's.


It is his decision but my point is that he can pursue a relationship if he so chooses without marrying her again. They can spend time together, share their lives together, even grow old together without marrying. He has been hurt greatly. He can have a relationship without trying to go back in time and recapturing what was already destroyed. He can forge a new relationship with her and by having there be no permanence he can be sure that she is staying because she wants to be with him and she can be sure that he stays because he wants to be with her with no artificial hold on either of them.


----------



## old timer

Acabado said:


> About FWB
> This is wrong. You must let her go, you mujst end it with her. You don't offer her stay while you date your XW; what if she accept it? Then it's suddenly right? Being "honest" doesn't preserve your integrity. The offer is wrong itself, are you a cake eater?
> In the other... the same aplies to your XW, if you are "dating" her you can't have any kind of relationship or someone else as a FBW in the pocket just in case. No matter how "slow" things you want to be or the plans you have in mind.
> It's wrong. Period. No grey areas.
> 
> Don't become a cheater yourself. Not even go near it.


*Acabado:* 
You offer a lot of advice to posters here. 

Just curious. I checked your profile statistics - it shows no threads you have started. What's your story? How did you end up on TAM?


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks, everybody. Be assured that I am going to take it very slow, and she is going to have to prove herself, at all times. Given the facts, I don't think complacency is an option.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado, I don't look at this as cake-eating at all. We are not married, so I really can date anyone I choose, I'm a free agent, until such a time as I decide to make it exclusive with one or the other, or anyone else, for that matter..
Having said that, I will always be honest with everybody and give them the choice.


----------



## karole

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know what to think. This is the third or fourth time this has happened to me, since my ex-wife left our home.
> I will meet a woman, carefully explain that I want a FWB (sex and recreation), but they always seem to want more than that, from me. I'm beginning to think that I might just be in love with my ex-wife, more than I ever thought.


Perhaps if you went into a relationship not labeling it as a FWB relationship up front, you might feel the spark with someone. I don't think you are being fair to yourself or the ladies you are dating. If you are in the mindset they are all just FWB, that's all they'll be.


----------



## old timer

karole said:


> Perhaps if you went into a relationship not labeling it as a FWB relationship up front, you might feel the spark with someone. I don't think you are being fair to yourself or the ladies you are dating. If you are in the mindset they are all just FWB, that's all they'll be.


Rookie's only a year or so out from his divorce. As long as everyone knows the deal, I see no reason why FWB's should be a problem. If any partner wants more than he's willing to give, he can explain and move on.


----------



## Rookie4

Karole, this is a good point, but I actually didn't make such distinctions when I first started dating, I just went with the flow, until I realized that I simply wasn't interested in anything exclusive, just yet. After that, I began to tell women my POV beforehand.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> Rookie's only a year or so out from his divorce. As long as everyone knows the deal, I see no reason why FWB's should be a problem. If any partner wants more than he's willing to give, he can explain and move on.


That's basically what I have done, OT. After what happened to me, I would NEVER mislead anybody, or cause needless pain.


----------



## Rookie4

Had a good night, tonight. She came over and made dinner and we relaxed and talked about the kids, Christmas, etc. I never mentioned the affair at all. She ask about the sleeping arrangements for Christmas Eve. I told her she could share my bed, but hands off. We laughed about it, then she said that would be the best Christmas present she has ever gotten. I pretty good night, for us. Don't you think?


----------



## Madman1

Man she put it to you what a read.
She wants you back so she is on her best dating behavior.
Dont fall for that. She is your kids mom and your ex but she is not the woman you fell in love with, you love that memory, she is just a sad hand me down now.

Your confidence is good because you know you can attract a woman.

She is doing the pick me dance, she has done that one to many times.

Dont get sentimental and get attached over the holidays, you know she wants that.

She will be the picture of the attractive wife and kids mother you always
Wanted.
It just a commercial dont buy it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Madman1 said:


> Man she put it to you what a read.
> She wants you back so she is on her best dating behavior.
> Dont fall for that. She is you kids mom and your ex but she is not the woman you fell in love with, you love that memory, she is just a sad hand me down now.
> 
> Your confidence is good because you know you can affract s woman
> 
> Dont get sentimental and get attached over the holidays, you know she wants that.
> 
> She will be the picture of the attractive wife and kids mother you always
> Wanted.
> It just a commercial dont buy it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what? I don't think you're right about this, Madman. If she wanted to schmooze me, she wouldn't have picked a time when I would be wary of it, would she? There have been other times, Kids B-Days, Graduations,Anniversaries, family outings when she could have done it or tried to. I think that I'm going to do the holiday thing and still take my time, but I don't think she is lying to me, and I don't think she lied to me even back then.
You have to remember, she outed herself, and then when she wanted to come home, she told me where she was (at Brad's) why didn't she lie and say she was somewhere else? If she wanted to lie to me she's had lots of chances but hasn't since that night.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Rookie, how has she addressed the comments she made to coworkers about you? The steak over hamburger nonsense? I am curious as to how she has either explained herself to others about these comments, to both friends, coworkers and family.

The way you describe her, she does seem genuine. However, have you considered the possibility she is sick of living with a roommate from church? Or that her present lifestyle is not as good as it would be with you?

You do seem like you're going to enjoy family time this holiday season, and now more than ever thats important. I hope that she is sincere in these efforts to reconcile with you. Good luck!


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Had a good night, tonight. She came over and made dinner and we relaxed and talked about the kids, Christmas, etc. I never mentioned the affair at all. She ask about the sleeping arrangements for Christmas Eve. I told her she could share my bed, but hands off. We laughed about it, then she said that would be the best Christmas present she has ever gotten. I pretty good night, for us. Don't you think?


Yes a pretty good night. And you gave her a nice present.

Do not forget about the stocking stuffer though!


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> You know what? I don't think you're right about this, Madman. If she wanted to schmooze me, she wouldn't have picked a time when I would be wary of it, would she? There have been other times, Kids B-Days, Graduations,Anniversaries, family outings when she could have done it or tried to. I think that I'm going to do the holiday thing and still take my time, but I don't think she is lying to me, and I don't think she lied to me even back then.
> You have to remember, she outed herself, and then when she wanted to come home, she told me where she was (at Brad's) why didn't she lie and say she was somewhere else? If she wanted to lie to me she's had lots of chances but hasn't since that night.


I think many of us think a wayward is evil forever.

I firmly believe that some people learn from life's lessons. And want to be good, honest and faithful.

Let Rookie decide if this is the case with his ExW.

He has all the time in the world to verify.......


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> You know what? I don't think you're right about this, Madman. If she wanted to schmooze me, she wouldn't have picked a time when I would be wary of it, would she? There have been other times, Kids B-Days, Graduations,Anniversaries, family outings when she could have done it or tried to. I think that I'm going to do the holiday thing and still take my time, but I don't think she is lying to me, and I don't think she lied to me even back then.
> You have to remember, she outed herself, and then when she wanted to come home, she told me where she was (at Brad's) why didn't she lie and say she was somewhere else? If she wanted to lie to me she's had lots of chances but hasn't since that night.


Don't waste your time jutifying to the haters.

What is important is WW doing all that she must do to recover.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Rookie----In your talking with your XW---have the 2 of you ever discussed what caused all of this mess

Her conception that because of work, you, and the mge, were going south-------has she ever told you why she used that as her justification to cheat, as opposed to sitting you down, and saying the mge has problems, lets work on them----was that ever done by either of you?????---

--Its kind of sad, that your wife didn't/wouldn't realize that, tho the mge comes 1st---there is no life W/OUT greenback dollars, and you had to work, no matter what, and she should have had enough sense, to understand and deal with the marital problem, instead of using it as justification to give herself to the guy who I guess was angling to replace you.

Obviously you know your wife has figured it all out, and she is doing what she can to win you back.------The future is up to you

Lets look at the future----you are probably pretty close to 50----so you ain't that far away from, your golden years----let me tell you when you hit retirement, and get up in years-----it is basically you and your spouse---ALL THE TIME------you are together, and for much of the time there is no one else, yes there is friends/family/children----BUT THEY COME AND GO----YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE, SPEND ALL OF YOUR TIME TOGETHER----AND IF YOU HAVE DOUBT/TRUST/REMEMBERENCE, ISSUES---YOU ARE GONNA HAVE A PROBLEM.

Sounds like you are satisfied with your life right now----It also sounds like you will take plenty of time, to do it right the 2nd time----don't allow your wife to push you into anything to fast----she wants her life back, and she wants it badly----but do remember, she also gave herself to another man----and had no problem doing THAT, so, just be very wary-----it is your FUTURE LIFE, you are dealing with, and like it or not, your wife does have a bad streak in her!!!!!!!


----------



## Shaggy

theroad said:


> Don't waste your time jutifying to the haters.


Please please please don't throw out that stupid haters crap. 

The people here are honestly trying to help him with their best advice. 

And you calling them haters is not helpful in anyway. If you don't like the advice he has been given, then offer an alternate better advice - but don't just degenerate the other posters advice by calling them haters. We don't hate him, or hist wife, or anyone else - with the exception that we hate the actions of lying and cheating.


----------



## Shaggy

Rookie4 said:


> You know what? I don't think you're right about this, Madman. If she wanted to schmooze me, she wouldn't have picked a time when I would be wary of it, would she? There have been other times, Kids B-Days, Graduations,Anniversaries, family outings when she could have done it or tried to. I think that I'm going to do the holiday thing and still take my time, but I don't think she is lying to me, and I don't think she lied to me even back then.
> *You have to remember, she outed herself, and then when she wanted to come home, she told me where she was (at Brad's) why didn't she lie and say she was somewhere else? If she wanted to lie to me she's had lots of chances but hasn't since that night*.


Rookie,

I'm thinking that your wife is sometimes doesn't fully think through things.

She screwed up tactically when she called from Brads. She thought of it as her safe place that she could run to, and his bed, when you kicked her out. She in her head likely saw it as her offering to leave the OM and his bed and return to yours.

She didn't see it the way you saw it at all.

I predict that she will try to get both of you drunk on xmas and she will do her hardest to have sex with you when you share a bed. It's very symbolic what you have agreed to do, and she will emotionally see it as your acceptance of her. Just like when she called from Brads, she was offering to return from his bed to yours. This is the closure of that offer negotiation. She will be finally back in yours.


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks to all, both the pros and cons, I will answer you guys this evening.


----------



## old timer

Shaggy said:


> *She didn't see it the way you saw it at all.*


Shaggy - you said a mouthful there.

And I'm not talking specifically about Rookie's situation. It has happened so many times in my marriage, and I would venture to say that almost everyone here has experienced this as well:

I say or do something which is taken as an intentional "slight" by the wife. And vice versa. Over the years, we rarely, if ever, stopped to really talk it out and make our feelings known to the other. It was always easier for us to go into our old reliable passive-aggressive mode. 

Feelings brew, a little bit of love and respect is lost in every instance. After years of this behavior, we find ourselves bitter and hurt, seemingly beyond repair.

Then one or the other (or both, in my case) uses this bitterness and anger to justify an affair. Then we wonder "Why?".


----------



## Rookie4

Shaggy said:


> Rookie,
> 
> I'm thinking that your wife is sometimes doesn't fully think through things.
> 
> She screwed up tactically when she called from Brads. She thought of it as her safe place that she could run to, and his bed, when you kicked her out. She in her head likely saw it as her offering to leave the OM and his bed and return to yours.
> 
> She didn't see it the way you saw it at all.
> 
> I predict that she will try to get both of you drunk on xmas and she will do her hardest to have sex with you when you share a bed. It's very symbolic what you have agreed to do, and she will emotionally see it as your acceptance of her. Just like when she called from Brads, she was offering to return from his bed to yours. This is the closure of that offer negotiation. She will be finally back in yours.


Shagy, what you say may have some truth in it , but her past history is against it, she doesn't know any more about tactics than she does about rocket science, she is (or was) strictly off-the-cuff, from brain to mouth. Don't get me wrong she has brains as well as beauty, but her anger and/or feelings would always get her to say things she didn't mean or didn't mean to say. I need to know which it was.


----------



## Rookie4

jnj express said:


> Hey Rookie----In your talking with your XW---have the 2 of you ever discussed what caused all of this mess
> 
> Her conception that because of work, you, and the mge, were going south-------has she ever told you why she used that as her justification to cheat, as opposed to sitting you down, and saying the mge has problems, lets work on them----was that ever done by either of you?????---
> 
> --Its kind of sad, that your wife didn't/wouldn't realize that, tho the mge comes 1st---there is no life W/OUT greenback dollars, and you had to work, no matter what, and she should have had enough sense, to understand and deal with the marital problem, instead of using it as justification to give herself to the guy who I guess was angling to replace you.
> 
> Obviously you know your wife has figured it all out, and she is doing what she can to win you back.------The future is up to you
> 
> Lets look at the future----you are probably pretty close to 50----so you ain't that far away from, your golden years----let me tell you when you hit retirement, and get up in years-----it is basically you and your spouse---ALL THE TIME------you are together, and for much of the time there is no one else, yes there is friends/family/children----BUT THEY COME AND GO----YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE, SPEND ALL OF YOUR TIME TOGETHER----AND IF YOU HAVE DOUBT/TRUST/REMEMBERENCE, ISSUES---YOU ARE GONNA HAVE A PROBLEM.
> 
> Sounds like you are satisfied with your life right now----It also sounds like you will take plenty of time, to do it right the 2nd time----don't allow your wife to push you into anything to fast----she wants her life back, and she wants it badly----but do remember, she also gave herself to another man----and had no problem doing THAT, so, just be very wary-----it is your FUTURE LIFE, you are dealing with, and like it or not, your wife does have a bad streak in her!!!!!!!


Jnj, i disagree with most of what you say but one thing hits hard, she asked me repeatedly to quit my job and said we could manage on her salary for a while as she was sure I could get another job. But with the kids in college I just couldn't take that chance. I know she thought I was rejecting her, but I wasn't so much as her solution to our problem. We stopped talking about it, and that is both of our faults. I know she thought our marriage was just window dressing.


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> ...but her anger and/or feelings would always get her to say things she didn't mean or didn't mean to say. I need to know which it was.


This is well put, imo. That's the crux of it now, isn't it?


----------



## jnj express

Hey Rookie-----You can disagree with whatever you wish---but when I tell you, in later life---you spend all your time with your spouse---THAT IS THE WAY IT IS----unfortuately, many family members/friends will have passed on---your kids, may or may not have moved away----you will be on your own as a 2some------and agree or not---you have a whole lot of time to think about things---and something like an infidelity, may, very well be a big part of your thoughts-------don't disagree with this---you have not been here---you don't know----you will find out, when it becomes your life.


----------



## Rookie4

jnj express said:


> Hey Rookie-----You can disagree with whatever you wish---but when I tell you, in later life---you spend all your time with your spouse---THAT IS THE WAY IT IS----unfortuately, many family members/friends will have passed on---your kids, may or may not have moved away----you will be on your own as a 2some------and agree or not---you have a whole lot of time to think about things---and something like an infidelity, may, very well be a big part of your thoughts-------don't disagree with this---you have not been here---you don't know----you will find out, when it becomes your life.


I think I'm beginning to see it in a different light, now. She and I had 25 years of history built up, she threw it away and regretted it from then on. So do I go into middle age with somebody new, to try and make a new start? or do I try to re-build on a more solid foundation with somebody whom I think has learned her lesson? I will take my own time to decide.


----------



## Acabado

Many times I've read the _there's no garantees, the next one can be also a cheater_... somehow to rationalize the fact BS stays (as in my case) or the _once a cheater always a cheater, the past will predict the future_... for those to leave.
I do believe those cheaters who really, genuinely are remorseful and do the work to self improvement are in less risk to repeat that the averager person. Of course we must then argue about which means "doing the work" but still the idea stands.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> Many times I've read the _there's no garantees, the next one can be also a cheater_... somehow to rationalize the fact BS stays (as in my case) or the _once a cheater always a cheater, the past will predict the future_... for those to leave.
> I do believe those cheaters who really, genuinely are remorseful and do the work to self improvement are in less risk to repeat that the averager person. Of course we must then argue about which means "doing the work" but still the idea stands.


I think there is a little bit of truth on both sides.

My wife is an incredibly decent, honest and caring person in many ways. Yet she has faults that led her to have an affair and she still has those faults. Some of them she is blind to, which is how the first affair happened. 

We avoid conditions that could trigger those faults as much as we can. We talk honestly about the dangers of infidelity...no rose coloured glasses. And I am prepared to walk if there is a repeat.

I believe everyone has faults, everyone has a breaking point. At least with my wife we now have some idea what hers is.

Beyond that, the things that made me love her are still there, she is still my best friend. 

Rookie, if you can live with and love your wife warts and all, then you stand at least a chance of finding happiness.

You could also break your heart. But if you walk away from her, will it break anyway?


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> I think there is a little bit of truth on both sides.
> 
> My wife is an incredibly decent, honest and caring person in many ways. Yet she has faults that led her to have an affair and she still has those faults. Some of them she is blind to, which is how the first affair happened.
> 
> We avoid conditions that could trigger those faults as much as we can. We talk honestly about the dangers of infidelity...no rose coloured glasses. And I am prepared to walk if there is a repeat.
> 
> I believe everyone has faults, everyone has a breaking point. At least with my wife we now have some idea what hers is.
> 
> Beyond that, the things that made me love her are still there, she is still my best friend.
> 
> Rookie, if you can live with and love your wife warts and all, then you stand at least a chance of finding happiness.
> 
> You could also break your heart. But if you walk away from her, will it break anyway?


I do not agree with you, Wazza. Yes I love mye ex-wife, but she will have to remove the warts herself.


----------



## Madman1

Rookie,
I'm no hater, I finished your thread respecting how you handled it.

I will admit to being a little suspicious sometimes, and the whole xmass thing seemed a little risky if a guy was unsuspecting.

If you want to get back with your ex I respect that, but I hope it would be on your terms.

Thats enough said on that becase I can tell from your response after my post that your cool with pros and cons, I wish you the best.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> I do not agree with you, Wazza. Yes I love mye ex-wife, but she will have to remove the warts herself.


Rookie, all I am really doing is sharing my experience. I am no great expert, and not at all qualified beyond my own reconciliation, which I regard as successful but not perfect.

Your wife has a temper, I gather? She can learn ways to handle it better, but can she really suddenly not have that temper?

You get to determine the terms on which you are willing to reconcile. If you decide she needs to do something, and she can't or won't, of course it is your right to walk away.

You are already in circumstances where some think you should be doing so.


----------



## Rookie4

Madman1 said:


> Rookie,
> I'm no hater, I finished your thread respecting how you handled it.
> 
> I will admit to being a little suspicious sometimes, and the whole xmass thing seemed a little risky if a guy was unsuspecting.
> 
> If you want to get back with your ex I respect that, but I hope it would be on your terms.
> 
> Thats enough said on that becase I can tell from your response after my post that your cool with pros and cons, I wish you the best.


Thanks, Madman, for your post. Yes, I'm perfectly willing to listen to all sides as long as there is no name calling. Those other two posters called my ex wife names that I never did, even when she told me of the affair. She was, after all, the mother of my kids and for 25 years my partner, so I'm not going to stand by and have her grossly insulted. Also, don't worry, any reconciliation that happens will be because she has demonstrated that she is following the rules I have set for it.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Rookie, all I am really doing is sharing my experience. I am no great expert, and not at all qualified beyond my own reconciliation, which I regard as successful but not perfect.
> 
> Your wife has a temper, I gather? She can learn ways to handle it better, but can she really suddenly not have that temper?
> 
> You get to determine the terms on which you are willing to reconcile. If you decide she needs to do something, and she can't or won't, of course it is your right to walk away.
> 
> You are already in circumstances where some think you should be doing so.


Wazza, I don't expect her to act like a slave or a robot. Neither submissive or emotionless. What I do expect and I think I have a right to expect, is that she improve her behavior. From what family and friends have said, she is doing that, more than I ever thought or believed she could. It's been over 2 years now and she faithfully meets with her counselor, and gotten more involved with her church, and has been very proactive in her handling of her job and the situation with Brad. All of this is very good, I'm thinking.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Rookie,

It seems your wife has made great strides on her own and that is encouraging. How have you been able to judge her sincerity? I'm sure you have had to see/hear it from more than just her word, since the trust in marriage was shattered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, I don't expect her to act like a slave or a robot. Neither submissive or emotionless. What I do expect and I think I have a right to expect, is that she improve her behavior. From what family and friends have said, she is doing that, more than I ever thought or believed she could. It's been over 2 years now and she faithfully meets with her counselor, and gotten more involved with her church, and has been very proactive in her handling of her job and the situation with Brad. All of this is very good, I'm thinking.


We can only do our best. Those who tell you it is a risk are right, but sometimes the risk is worth it.


----------



## workindad

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, but I'm not too happy about it. My counselor is a very young guy with no marriage experience, so I'm thinking about trying somebody else.


If your counselor is not working for you, try another one. Having a good one to work with is very beneficial. 

Good luck OP.

To your original question- My answer would be no, but we must all make our own decisions.

WD


----------



## old timer

workindad said:


> If your counselor is not working for you, try another one. Having a good one to work with is very beneficial.


:iagree:

As this was expressed to me: 
"Counselors are like shoes - some fit - others don't"


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, I don't expect her to act like a slave or a robot. Neither submissive or emotionless. What I do expect and I think I have a right to expect, is that she improve her behavior. From what family and friends have said, she is doing that, more than I ever thought or believed she could. It's been over 2 years now and she faithfully meets with her counselor, and gotten more involved with her church, and has been very proactive in her handling of her job and the situation with Brad. All of this is very good, I'm thinking.


I think her behavior is good if you think its good Rookie.

Does her counselor help her with managing her anger?

That seems like one emotion she really hurt you with when you guys were breaking up.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, I don't expect her to act like a slave or a robot. Neither submissive or emotionless. What I do expect and I think I have a right to expect, is that she improve her behavior. From what family and friends have said, she is doing that, more than I ever thought or believed she could. It's been over 2 years now and she faithfully meets with her counselor, and gotten more involved with her church, and has been very proactive in her handling of her job and the situation with Brad. All of this is very good, I'm thinking.


To me, the more promising facet about this is she did it with basicaly no hope (well, we can always drean, right?) she asked back DDay, she kept pushing between that day and the day the divorce was final only to put herself literaly on her knees, she got herself IC after that, she keeps going since, she's living an honorable life the latest two years, while you were living yours just fine.
Permanent, lasting changes are those which we make by ourselves, for ourselves, with no reward at sight.
There's never garantees in life, specially with human beings, but if we were to find something close to a garantee it would be something close to this.


----------



## alte Dame

Acabado said:


> To me, the more promising facet about this is she did it with basicaly no hope (well, we can always drean, right?) she asked back DDay, she kept pushing between that day and the day the divorce was final only to put herself literaly on her knees, she got herself IC after that, she keeps going since, she's living an honorable life the latest two years, while you were living yours just fine.
> Permanent, lasting changes are those which we make by ourselves, for ourselves, with no reward at sight.
> There's never garantees in life, specially with human beings, but if we were to find something close to a garantee it would be something close to this.


:iagree:

I've really changed my opinion on this.


----------



## theroad

Shaggy said:


> Please please please don't throw out that stupid haters crap.
> 
> The people here are honestly trying to help him with their best advice.
> 
> And you calling them haters is not helpful in anyway. If you don't like the advice he has been given, then offer an alternate better advice - but don't just degenerate the other posters advice by calling them haters. We don't hate him, or hist wife, or anyone else - with the exception that we hate the actions of lying and cheating.


When a BH wants to recover and his WW is doing the work. There is no title better then hater for those telling the BH to still dump his WW.

The BH is trying to recover. Those "haters" are the ones not offering help. Yet you want them to continue to offer their non-help as help.


----------



## Rookie4

Whip Morgan said:


> Rookie,
> 
> It seems your wife has made great strides on her own and that is encouraging. How have you been able to judge her sincerity? I'm sure you have had to see/hear it from more than just her word, since the trust in marriage was shattered.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whip, Until earlier this fall we only met to discus family matters and issues with our kids, so I didn't get to really examine her behavior, but the reports from friends and family were encouraging, and now that we are interacting much more, I see real differences in her attitude and ways of expressing her feelings, positively. All of this leads me to be hopeful.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> To me, the more promising facet about this is she did it with basicaly no hope (well, we can always drean, right?) she asked back DDay, she kept pushing between that day and the day the divorce was final only to put herself literaly on her knees, she got herself IC after that, she keeps going since, she's living an honorable life the latest two years, while you were living yours just fine.
> Permanent, lasting changes are those which we make by ourselves, for ourselves, with no reward at sight.
> There's never garantees in life, specially with human beings, but if we were to find something close to a garantee it would be something close to this.


Acabado, you've hit on one of the keys to my willingness to try reconciliation. For two years she has worked and worked hard to better herself, and until a month a go I gave her no hope of R at all. On the contrary, I repeatedly told her to find someone else, because I had moved past her and wasn't interested. She is doing this because she WANTS to be better. I know her and she would NOT work this hard if she wasn't completely committed to self-improvement. I have told her how impressed I was with her, and she GLOWED!!!!


----------



## tom67

Rookie4 said:


> Acabado, you've hit on one of the keys to my willingness to try reconciliation. For two years she has worked and worked hard to better herself, and until a month a go I gave her no hope of R at all. On the contrary, I repeatedly told her to find someone else, because I had moved past her and wasn't interested. She is doing this because she WANTS to be better. I know her and she would NOT work this hard if she wasn't completely committed to self-improvement. I have told her how impressed I was with her, and she GLOWED!!!!


Rookie about 3 yrs ago my ex after confronting her just left with the om, after a year they split now almost 3 yrs out she has been reaching out through various means. I will never say never, but since I changed myself I have a casual 27 yr old gf and eh maybe another one on the side. You sound very grounded just TAKE IT SLOW. I'm 45 btw and have a 15 yr old daughter.


----------



## tom67

If she is doing all the work that's a good thing


----------



## Rookie4

tom67 said:


> If she is doing all the work that's a good thing


Tom, she is doing a lot and asks to do more, so I'm pretty happy about that.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> I have told her how impressed I was with her, and she GLOWED!!!!


Maybe not the kind of romantic love to sustain a relationship itself but this is love - from your side - nonetheless. If you find there're still there those embers I can't find better foundations but respect and "love" to stir them up to a full flamed fire with a little help. 

ETA
I know should refrain a little to keep pushing you. I'm a hopeless romantic, maybe the appeal of a happy ending is getting the better of me... but I'm happyly reconciled with my wife and I feel you can be very happy too. 
It's going to be hard to keep yourself and your XW grounded as you keep relinking your intimate relationship. Those who advice you to take it slow are right. There's no rush.


----------



## NaturalHeart

Rookie4 said:


> Jonesy, the Divorce was final approx. a year ago. The affair was a year or so before that. According to her, her Mom and her minister, she realized her "sins", and asked forgiveness. She SAYS she hasn't been with Brad since the first month after the affair was revealed. She has always said that, even a year ago during our meetings , pre-divorce. She has publically begged my forgiveness several times since and continues to do so , to this day.


 
It aint so exciting anymore when what is in the dark comes to light. Brad was in it for the pleasure but I'm sure WIFE saw very quickly that Brad was not gonna be exclusive. She was all in the fog and once you left, the thrill of sneaking and cheating was gone.... Reality set in. Have you dated or tried to enjoy the single life????


----------



## Acabado

NaturalHeart said:


> It aint so exciting anymore when what is in the dark comes to light. Brad was in it for the pleasure but I'm sure WIFE saw very quickly that Brad was not gonna be exclusive. She was all in the fog and once you left, the thrill of sneaking and cheating was gone.... Reality set in. Have you dated or tried to enjoy the single life????


Just read the whole thread.


----------



## Rookie4

Natural Heart, yes to all of the above.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Maybe not the kind of romantic love to sustain a relationship itself but this is love - from your side - nonetheless. If you find there're still there those embers I can't find better foundations but respect and "love" to stir them up to a full flamed fire with a little help.
> 
> ETA
> I know should refrain a little to keep pushing you. I'm a hopeless romantic, maybe the appeal of a happy ending is getting the better of me... but I'm happyly reconciled with my wife and I feel you can be very happy too.
> It's going to be hard to keep yourself and your XW grounded as you keep relinking your intimate relationship. Those who advice you to take it slow are right. There's no rush.


I know that, Acabado. BTW, what does Acabado mean? I'm bi-lingual, English and Hillbilly.


----------



## theroad

tom67 said:


> Rookie about 3 yrs ago my ex after confronting her just left with the om, after a year they split now almost 3 yrs out she has been reaching out through various means. I will never say never, but since I changed myself I have a casual 27 yr old gf and eh maybe another one on the side. You sound very grounded just TAKE IT SLOW. I'm 45 btw and have a 15 yr old daughter.


I do not say you should or should not recover.

Though with your WW reaching out you need to accept or go NC with her.

Neither you or your WW should be living in the land of In Between.


----------



## MarriedTex

Rookie4 said:


> Tom, she is doing a lot and asks to do more, so I'm pretty happy about that.


Rook, 

You have to do things on your own time, of course, but I'm an old softie compared to most on TAM. 

I think it would be incredibly romantic if you were able to give her your "gift" on Christmas Eve.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Rookie sounds like you've had a good few days, good to hear. You mentioned you've heard from others about her progress- are these people genuine in their beliefs? What I mean is that I am assuming you are not hearing this from the people she bragged to about her affair. And how has she addressed the things she said about you , to any family or mutual friends of have? I'm about to get ready for some MNF, have a good night !


----------



## walkonmars

Rookie4 said:


> I know that, Acabado. BTW, what does Acabado mean? I'm bi-lingual, English and Hillbilly.


Since he hasn't responded I'll answer in hillbilly:

it means "Dun fer"


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> I know that, Acabado. BTW, what does Acabado mean? I'm bi-lingual, English and Hillbilly.


Acabado = Finished, both "perfected" and "demolished".
Is the same as dun fer?


----------



## Rookie4

Whip Morgan said:


> Rookie sounds like you've had a good few days, good to hear. You mentioned you've heard from others about her progress- are these people genuine in their beliefs? What I mean is that I am assuming you are not hearing this from the people she bragged to about her affair. And how has she addressed the things she said about you , to any family or mutual friends of have? I'm about to get ready for some MNF, have a good night !


Whip ,she no longer is friends with those girls. There were two of them who encouraged her affair (doesn't let her off the hook, though) then dissed her about it when I threw her out. Drama Queens, and gossips. It was their talk that first alerted my friend to the inappropriate contact between my ex and Brad.


----------



## Rookie4

Ok, Walkonmars and Acabado, now I understand. It means , "piss on tha far n call in tha dogs". Right?


----------



## Malaise

Rookie

From where I sit it seems that she's doing all the right things necessary to reconcile. I'm, at times , a pretty cynical guy but I hope that she's truly sincere and has changed the things in her life necessary.

All of that only you can see, we can't, and the final decision is yours alone.

I'm also very sentimental at times and I hope you do give her that second chance and that she doesn't mess up that gift.

Good luck


----------



## Whip Morgan

Good that they are out of her life. Did she actively remove them from her life on her own because she realized it was not good for her,or was she encouraged by others to so so? And you mentioned she lived with a roommate in an apartment , have you considered the possibility she wants back with you for a better living style?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Whip Morgan said:


> Good that they are out of her life. Did she actively remove them from her life on her own because she realized it was not good for her,or was she encouraged by others to so so? And you mentioned she lived with a roommate in an apartment , have you considered the possibility she wants back with you for a better living style?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't really know the circumstances of her parting of the ways with her "friends", but it's a good idea to try to find out.
I don't think the living arrangements are part of the equation, because I've already told her that would not change, for the foreseeable future. 
I am taking my time amd lining up all of my ducks before I proceed with anything lasting with her. I have no intention of renewing an LTR, if there are still issues that I need to address or have her address, plus there are "proofs", that I will need to even consider it. She is agreeable to all of this, btw.


----------



## Cdelta02

Rookie4 said:


> I don't really know the circumstances of her parting of the ways with her "friends", but it's a good idea to try to find out.
> I don't think the living arrangements are part of the equation, because I've already told her that would not change, for the foreseeable future.
> I am taking my time amd lining up all of my ducks before I proceed with anything lasting with her. I have no intention of renewing an LTR, if there are still issues that I need to address or have her address, plus there are "proofs", that I will need to even consider it. She is agreeable to all of this, btw.


Good. You have absolutely the right approach to this. Take it slow like you are doing and you will do well. Anyways, you know what they say...

Fool me once, shame on.....me
Fool me again, shame on ...George W Bush....


----------



## remorseful strayer

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with all you guys are saying. I guess that the way she compared Brad's love making to mine is the most difficult to get over. She says she was just saying that to hurt me , while we were fighting, and to show her co-workers that she was "over me", and was in a better place, but that she soon realized that she had made a huge mistake and that it was me she always loved but I was never around to show her any affection. I wonder how those of you who have been cheated on, ever get over the comparisons, real or immagined between the husband and the lover?. she swears that our sex was always better but that since I went on thirds, we never "did it", as often as we did before, which is true.


If she is still blaming you after all this time, it is a very bad sign. 

I cheated, and never blamed my wife. I knew from the getgo it was just about sex and it was my problem not hers 

Women do cheat more typically, but not always, for emotional fulfillment.

Still the fact that she has had a lot of time to be introspective and is still blaming you rather than realize that she should have communicated her feelings to you, is not a sign of true remorse. 

She is blameshifting and rationalizing and after all this time, she should have better insight into her own motivations. 

The reconciliations that work the best, are the ones in which the straying spouse immediately apologizes, say nothing demeaning and ends the affair with immediate no contact thereafter 

I did all that, yet my wife still left me. I don't blame her either.


----------



## remorseful strayer

bfree said:


> It is his decision but my point is that he can pursue a relationship if he so chooses without marrying her again. They can spend time together, share their lives together, even grow old together without marrying. He has been hurt greatly. He can have a relationship without trying to go back in time and recapturing what was already destroyed. He can forge a new relationship with her and by having there be no permanence he can be sure that she is staying because she wants to be with him and she can be sure that he stays because he wants to be with her with no artificial hold on either of them.


That is an excellent idea. 

Also, Rookie doesn't have to worry about the legal costs of divorcing again and the ramifications of it, if she ever strays again.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Rookie4 said:


> Acabado, I don't look at this as cake-eating at all. We are not married, so I really can date anyone I choose, I'm a free agent, until such a time as I decide to make it exclusive with one or the other, or anyone else, for that matter..
> Having said that, I will always be honest with everybody and give them the choice.


Rookie: 

I agree with this poster. 

Technically you are not cheating, but you ARE stringing your wife along in limbo. By dating your wife and others, you are not putting all your energy into your exwife. 

Just as she was doing during her affair, your energies are divided. 

If you want to get back together that is fine. It is your decision, you know this woman best. 

Nevertheless, stringing her along is unhealthy for the relationship. 

It is as abusive as cheating. 

Either put all your energy into a reconciliation or set free both of you to move on 

Also you might want to ask yourself why you are stringing her along and keeping the two of you in limbo. 

You already divorced her. That's a major rejection, now you are keeping her guessing about a reconciliation. You are going to build a lot of long term resentment in her if you continue this too long. 

You need to poop or get off the pot about a reconciliation.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I just want to say that I think this thread is great. It is what is supposed to happen. It is terrible when someone cheats in a marriage, but this is the best possible outcome. It is a great love story.

Rookie has done what we always tell people to do when they are cheated on. Be tough. Make the cheater feel the pain of what they have done. To move on. Rookie has done that. He has been playing the field and moving on from his cheating wife.

Two years have passed since the affair. He has seen what is out there and realizes that he still loves his ex wife. His ex has been doing everything she can to better herself.

I think it is great that you are taking it slow. I am hopeful you guys will get back together.

You will never forget what your wife did, but I believe you can forgive her and enjoy the rest of your lives together.


----------



## Almostrecovered

remorseful strayer said:


> You need to poop or get off the pot about a reconciliation.


no, he needs to take his time and date his wife slowly to see if it is worthwhile Ring. As long as all parties are aware of what is going on and are fine with it then there's no deception. They are not married anymore, it's tabula rasa and normal dating rules apply.


----------



## Rookie4

remorseful strayer said:


> Rookie:
> 
> I agree with this poster.
> 
> Technically you are not cheating, but you ARE stringing your wife along in limbo. By dating your wife and others, you are not putting all your energy into your exwife.
> 
> Just as she was doing during her affair, your energies are divided.
> 
> If you want to get back together that is fine. It is your decision, you know this woman best.
> 
> Nevertheless, stringing her along is unhealthy for the relationship.
> 
> It is as abusive as cheating.
> 
> Either put all your energy into a reconciliation or set free both of you to move on
> 
> Also you might want to ask yourself why you are stringing her along and keeping the two of you in limbo.
> 
> You already divorced her. That's a major rejection, now you are keeping her guessing about a reconciliation. You are going to build a lot of lot term resentment in her if you continue this too long.
> 
> You need to poop or get off the pot about a reconciliation.


You probably should re-read some of my posts. She has never blamed me for the affair, not even once. She blamed me for 1/2 of the problems in our marriage and I suppose that has some validity.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Almostrecovered said:


> no, he needs to take his time and date his wife slowly to see if it is worthwhile Ring. As long as all parties are aware of what is going on and are fine with it then there's no deception. They are not married anymore, it's tabula rasa and normal dating rules apply.


Well, I agree that rookie needs to take his time. 

I still don't agree that dividing his energies will be productive. He is setting himself up for future failure by creating resentment in his ex wife. 

No, normal dating rules do not apply. This is not a normal dating situation. It is an ex wife and ex husband situation and he claims to be trying to reconcile. 

I sense there is a desire to punish this woman by rubbing his dating in the ex wife's face while claiming to be trying to decide whether or not to reconcile. It's a passive aggressive form of abuse, at this point. 

He needs to jump both feet first into a reconciliation or let her go. 

Even if they do eventually reconcile, she will likely be simmering about his cat and mouse game for years to come. It is just as bad as her affair and it is cake eating of a different kind and it's a commitment issue.

Either commit to reconcile or stick to the divorce decree.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Rookie4 said:


> You probably should re-read some of my posts. She has never blamed me for the affair, not even once. She blamed me for 1/2 of the problems in our marriage and I suppose that has some validity.


I was typing as you posted so I already posted another post, sorry. 

If she blamed you for half the problems in the marriage after her affair, that is known as blameshifting. 

Discussing issues in the marriage after an affair should be put on the back burner. The affair takes precedence, and other issues can be brought up by the counselor in a productive way after all the affair issues are aired and addressed. 

That is the only way to ensure a proper reconciliation. 

You were not responsible for her affair, no matter what you did in the marriage. She could have taken the legal route and divorced.


----------



## Almostrecovered

It's really rookies wife decision as to whether she can accept rookie dating others for a period of time until they decide to be monogamous again. If she really feels it will breed resentment then she should stop seeing him. She's the one who asked for R and she can either live with the condition or not.


----------



## Wazza

remorseful strayer said:


> I was typing as you posted so I already posted another post, sorry.
> 
> If she blamed you for half the problems in the marriage after her affair, that is known as blameshifting.
> 
> Discussing issues in the marriage after an affair should be put on the back burner. The affair takes precedence, and other issues can be brought up by the counselor in a productive way after all the affair issues are aired and addressed.
> 
> That is the only way to ensure a proper reconciliation.
> 
> You were not responsible for her affair, no matter what you did in the marriage. She could have taken the legal route and divorced.


I don't see how I could have reconciled without addressing prior problems in the marriage. The affair does not exist in isolation.

This is not to excuse the wayward spouse, at all.

And I guess it may vary case by case according to the specifics of the marriage and the affair.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Wazza said:


> I don't see how I could have reconciled without addressing prior problems in the marriage. The affair does not exist in isolation.
> 
> This is not to excuse the wayward spouse, at all.
> 
> And I guess it may vary case by case according to the specifics of the marriage and the affair.


The bottom line is that there is never an excuse to have an affair. 

The affair actually does happen in isolation. The straying partner withdraws energy from the marriage and gives it to someone else without the spouses knowledge.

If the straying partner is so unhappy that they no longer want to engage their spouse and prefer to go outside for something, divorce is always an option or counseling. 

If the faithful spouse is isolated from the mindset of the straying partner, then how can the loyal spouse know a probem exists. 

A spouse can't fix a problem he/she is unaware of.

Even if the spouse is abusing the straying spouse, it is still not an excuse for an affair. Divorce is the solution.

In fact, a spouse who cheats on an abusive spouse puts their life in danger, and therefore, divorcing is the safest and better solution, if a spouse is the abusive type.

There are also people, like me, who cheat because they want sexual variety, due to viewing too much porn. It happens to men. It happens to women and it is a growing problem, now. 

So in those cases, the loyal spouse or any issues in the marriage had nothing to due with the straying spouse's decision to have an affair.

BTW: All marriages have issues, mature people realize that, they don't cheat and then blame their spouse.


----------



## alte Dame

My sense is that Rookie's core feelings for his XW are so deep that the issue of playing the field if he restarts things with her will be moot. I think his heart won't really be in seeing other women at the same time.


----------



## Wazza

remorseful strayer said:


> The bottom line is that there is never an excuse to have an affair.
> 
> The affair actually does happen in isolation. The straying partner withdraws energy from the marriage and gives it to someone else without the spouses knowledge.
> 
> If the straying partner is so unhappy that they no longer want to engage their spouse and prefer to go outside for something, divorce is always an option or counseling.
> 
> If the faithful spouse is isolated from the mindset of the straying partner, then how can the loyal spouse know a probem exists.
> 
> A spouse can't fix a problem he/she is unaware of.
> 
> Even if the spouse is abusing the straying spouse, it is still not an excuse for an affair. Divorce is the solution.
> 
> In fact, a spouse who cheats on an abusive spouse puts their life in danger, and therefore, divorcing is the safest and better solution, if a spouse is the abusive type.
> 
> There are also people, like me, who cheat because they want sexual variety, due to viewing too much porn. It happens to men. It happens to women and it is a growing problem, now.
> 
> So in those cases, the loyal spouse or any issues in the marriage had nothing to due with the straying spouse's decision to have an affair.
> 
> BTW: All marriages have issues, mature people realize that, they don't cheat and then blame their spouse.


My wife's affair was a product of personal issues she had, personal issues I had, and issues in the mariage. She was in a low place, fell in with some toxic enabling friends, and was targeted b a guy who sensed her weakness.

None of this excuses her, but it made a difference to our ability to reconcile and, I think, needed to be addressed to avoid a repeat.

That is what I mean by isolation.

You are right, I didn't know immediately what was happening, but even. When I did know getting her to stop was hard.


----------



## Rookie4

remorseful strayer said:


> Well, I agree that rookie needs to take his time.
> 
> I still don't agree that dividing his energies will be productive. He is setting himself up for future failure by creating resentment in his ex wife.
> 
> No, normal dating rules do not apply. This is not a normal dating situation. It is an ex wife and ex husband situation and he claims to be trying to reconcile.
> 
> I sense there is a desire to punish this woman by rubbing his dating in the ex wife's face while claiming to be trying to decide whether or not to reconcile. It's a passive aggressive form of abuse, at this point.
> 
> He needs to jump both feet first into a reconciliation or let her go.
> 
> Even if they do eventually reconcile, she will likely be simmering about his cat and mouse game for years to come. It is just as bad as her affair and it is cake eating of a different kind and it's a commitment issue.
> 
> Either commit to reconcile or stick to the divorce decree.


There's no doubt about it, remorseful strayer, you are either going to have to re-read the whole thread , or stop posting. You are re-hashing stuff that I have already talked about previously.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> My wife's affair was a product of personal issues she had, personal issues I had, and issues in the mariage. She was in a low place, fell in with some toxic enabling friends, and was targeted b a guy who sensed her weakness.
> 
> None of this excuses her, but it made a difference to our ability to reconcile and, I think, needed to be addressed to avoid a repeat.
> 
> That is what I mean by isolation.
> 
> You are right, I didn't know immediately what was happening, but even. When I did know getting her to stop was hard.


Wazza, your story sounds a lot like mine, except it was surprisingly easy to get her to end the affair. It basically ended within a few days , of D-day. In fact, she ended it without any input from me at all, as I wasn't speaking to her , at the time. From the moment she called begging to come home, I didn't talk to her at all for several weeks, except to discus arrangements for the kids and such like. I refused to discus the marriage or the affair or have any personal conversations with her, of any kind. Except through my lawyer, of course, or other family members.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie said:


> In fact, she ended it without any input from me at all, as I wasn't speaking to her , at the time. From the moment she called begging to come home.



Actually I think the fact that you detached so quickly was key in her ending it. So many BS's here don't get that by making it clear tat it isn't tolerated is really the best shot at ending the affair and getting to a place where R is possible.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Actually I think the fact that you detached so quickly was key in her ending it. So many BS's here don't get that by making it clear tat it isn't tolerated is really the best shot at ending the affair and getting to a place where R is possible.


Looking back, AR, I can see that is true. I will always think that she expected me to let her come home, and when I didn't, she began to get out of the fog, and realize the harm her actions had caused to so many people.


----------



## Almostrecovered

You pulled her out of fantasy land where unicorns roam and they poop popsicles and there are no consequences.

You showed her that her world wasn't real and instead laid out a path of destruction. Not every WS comes to reality and live in denial, but the best chance of getting them there is to do what we did (I asked for divorce right away myself)


----------



## SomedayDig

LMAO!!! "Poop popsicles"!!

Thanks, buddy. I really needed that this morning.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Poopsicles?


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> LMAO!!! "Poop popsicles"!!
> 
> Thanks, buddy. I really needed that this morning.


I agree . Sometimes a little humor helps a lot. I saw Brad (my ex's OM) about a week ago, walking downtown. He looked up and saw me and RAN into the mall! It did me a lot of good to see that he is still afraid of me


----------



## SomedayDig

God...this Brad guy sounds like a world class loser.

How could he not see the mall right there in front of him?! Sounds like a (word that rhymes with coosh).


----------



## Chaparral

I don't know how I missed this thread since I remember seeing it when it was first posted. I don't know if this has been posted before so if it has you can disregard it.

I saw quite a few instances where you were very concerned(shattered) by her desicription of his abillity and the size of his manhood. Firstly, at seven and a half inches, you are extremely lucky althought that can also be a handicap. I can say that because I am even "luckier" than you. She said all that becasue she knows that is a hot button issue with men though I cannot comprehend why. You were in a terrible fight and she ws trying to defend something that was indefensible.

Back in the day, the most shocking thing came up in Playboy. The average size is 6 inches. The odds that he is actually bigger than you, which is huge, is about 1 in100. I can't commenton how you use your tools in bed but I have no doubt she reall thinks you are wonderful. Brad just filled the vacum momentarily that your schedules made. Unfortunately, many of us fall prey to our own insecurites and natural drives.

I have not seen anyone on this site, and I have read thousands of posts/threads, that deserves more consederation than your wife.

Here is an interesting link. 

Mr. Average - The true story about penis size, from a site that isn't trying to sell you anything.

BTW it is also possible its bigger now than it used to be LOL.

BTW2 anything bigger than you is generally wasted as it doesn't fit and can be painful for the wife.


----------



## Almostrecovered

oh good the penis expert is here

(sorry chap, I just cant help but poke you now and then)


----------



## old timer

Almostrecovered said:


> (sorry chap, I just cant help but poke you now and then)


"POKE" being the operative word


----------



## Chaparral

Almostrecovered said:


> oh good the penis expert is here
> 
> (sorry chap, I just cant help but poke you now and then)


OMG,! now that's funny!



I new this wouldn't go quietly.


----------



## larry.gray

Folks here repeatedly say revenge affairs don't work. What is said about why totally makes sense.

But what Rookie did here isn't a revenge affair and seems to have worked well.


----------



## old timer

_I posted this on another thread "Reconciliation" - but felt it was worth repeating here._

*Rookie:*

If you want to be a player - be a player.

I think you're enjoying it, so it's whatever blows your (or your GF's) skirt up. I'm sure it feels very empowering for you, and that's not necessarily a bad thing for one's ego after being shot down in the past.

But one downside, as has been mentioned before, is that it could cause your xW to become bitter over being put into the game. This bitterness may not show right away, but could manifest itself down the line if you guys do reconcile.

I suggest meeting some more women, as well. Why limit yourself to only two choices? If you're going to play "alpha", play it all the way, without regard to the feelings of others involved. Just realize that it will likely jeopardize chances of a successful R down the road, imo.

Reading between the lines, I don't think you have strong enough Dark Triad tendencies to sustain this type of lifestyle. This is coming from someone whose DT scores suggest I should probably be in prison. I like to play the "game", and have been very good at it over the years - destroying two marriages and six kids along the way.

My wife shows no real signs of wanting to R with me (and quite honestly - I don't blame her), but I have put my "game" on the shelf. Through a lot of self-examination and the help of a very good IC, I truly believe it can stay there forever, if R ever becomes a reality.

I know if R does not happen, I will likely never pursue a LTR again. The prospect of going forward alone at my age (59) isn't very appealing, but I figure it will save some heartaches down the line. Pandora's Box is still there, and can be taken down and put to use at any time. 

This lifestyle is a zero-sum game. Your situation right now is not. So play the game at your own peril, being warned that there are consequences for you that may not be something you can handle later.

*MACH-IV Dark Triad Personality Test:

Dark Triad Personality Test*

Take the test, Rookie ^^^
Your scores will give you a good indication as to whether or not you can live with the consequences of being a player.



....[/QUOTE]


----------



## Whip Morgan

How is her behavior and attitude about you taking things slow? Is she pushing for a faster pace or is she fine with everything as it is now?


----------



## SadSamIAm

I don't know if the Rookie is a player or not.

I went through something similar many years ago. A very serious girl friend broke up with me. I was devastated. For the next 6 months, I was with a different girl every weekend. I wasn't really a player, as they were coming to me. 

Being dumped is a huge blow to your ego. I was sleeping with many girls because I was upset and I was trying to prove what a great lover I am. It was all about my bruised ego and my broken heart.

It took a couple of years before I could have an actual relationship again. That was 30 years ago.


----------



## Rookie4

Whip Morgan said:


> How is her behavior and attitude about you taking things slow? Is she pushing for a faster pace or is she fine with everything as it is now?


Whip, she definitely wants things to move faster, because she has already made the commitment to change and lets face it, she now KNOWS what it's like to be with someone else, and so is sure in her mind , what she wants. Which is me.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> _I posted this on another thread "Reconciliation" - but felt it was worth repeating here._
> 
> *Rookie:*
> 
> If you want to be a player - be a player.
> 
> I think you're enjoying it, so it's whatever blows your (or your GF's) skirt up. I'm sure it feels very empowering for you, and that's not necessarily a bad thing for one's ego after being shot down in the past.
> 
> But one downside, as has been mentioned before, is that it could cause your xW to become bitter over being put into the game. This bitterness may not show right away, but could manifest itself down the line if you guys do reconcile.
> 
> I suggest meeting some more women, as well. Why limit yourself to only two choices? If you're going to play "alpha", play it all the way, without regard to the feelings of others involved. Just realize that it will likely jeopardize chances of a successful R down the road, imo.
> 
> Reading between the lines, I don't think you have strong enough Dark Triad tendencies to sustain this type of lifestyle. This is coming from someone whose DT scores suggest I should probably be in prison. I like to play the "game", and have been very good at it over the years - destroying two marriages and six kids along the way.
> 
> My wife shows no real signs of wanting to R with me (and quite honestly - I don't blame her), but I have put my "game" on the shelf. Through a lot of self-examination and the help of a very good IC, I truly believe it can stay there forever, if R ever becomes a reality.
> 
> I know if R does not happen, I will likely never pursue a LTR again. The prospect of going forward alone at my age (59) isn't very appealing, but I figure it will save some heartaches down the line. Pandora's Box is still there, and can be taken down and put to use at any time.
> 
> This lifestyle is a zero-sum game. Your situation right now is not. So play the game at your own peril, being warned that there are consequences for you that may not be something you can handle later.
> 
> *MACH-IV Dark Triad Personality Test:
> 
> Dark Triad Personality Test*
> 
> Take the test, Rookie ^^^
> Your scores will give you a good indication as to whether or not you can live with the consequences of being a player.
> 
> 
> 
> ....


[/QUOTE]Geez, Old Timer, what the he**? Of course , I'm NOT a player, except in having to play a hand that was dealt to me, without my knowledge or consent.
Until 2 1/2 years ago, I would never have even considered having more than one woman, and even now , don't think it's a very good idea, but what am I supposed to do? 
After having to play for 2 years without trump or high cards, it's my deal now, and I'm going to deal myself as many trump cards as I can.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Rookie4 said:


> Whip, she definitely wants things to move faster, because she has already made the commitment to change and lets face it, she now KNOWS what it's like to be with someone else, and so is sure in her mind , what she wants. Which is me.


The only thing that would give me pause is what you stated above, that she now knows what its like to be with someone else. Any concern that she views you as Plan B, since Plan A with Brad didn't work out?


----------



## larry.gray

Whip Morgan said:


> The only thing that would give me pause is what you stated above, that she now knows what its like to be with someone else. Any concern that she views you as Plan B, since Plan A with Brad didn't work out?


I don't think that's the case. The OM didn't dumper her, she dumped him. 

She weighed the two and Brad was the plan B.


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> "it's my deal now, and I'm going to deal myself as many trump cards as I can."


^^Brother, that IS the player mentality.^^

I personally don't have a problem w/ anyone being a player, just pointing out that "the game" and reconciliation are are like oil and water, imo.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> ^^Brother, that IS the player mentality.^^
> 
> I personally don't have a problem w/ anyone being a player, just pointing out that "the game" and reconciliation are are like oil and water, imo.


That's not being a player, Old Timer, that's self-defense.


----------



## jim123

Rookie,

You have done it right. You stood up for yourself and made all the right moves. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I tried to read this whole tread and I am sorry if this has already come up.

Sit down or better yet write a note to your x with all your feelings and fears. Give it to her and let her think about it. She is the only one who can answer these things and she is the one you need to talk to, not us.

I can tell you love her. You can make a new marriage, which is easier than trying to fix a broken one.


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> That's not being a player, Old Timer, that's self-defense.


I'm sincerely not trying to be argumentative, Rookie. Just calling it as I see it.


----------



## Omegaa

Hi all

I was looking for the right thread to post.

I'm a BS. I'm reconciling. 

Apparently 80% who went for divorce after the discovery of cheating regretted having a divorce much later (in UK).

Reason? Love was simply stronger than destroying everything we had. So my answer is, yes, you CAN reconcile.


----------



## Rookie4

Possibly, Omegaa, but I will take my own time, nevertheless. I wouldn't put too much importance in Statistics, they are only as good or bad as you make them.


----------



## Whip Morgan

I should have been clearer about my last post concerning Plan A/B question. I meant it referring to the A in general. 

Rookie, do you feel that in pushing you to move faster for R, do you feel that your ex is doing it in a way that is disrespectful to what your feelings are? From how you describe her I dont think its that way. Sounds like someone who knows how good something is and wants it, and cant help but keep pushing for it but not in a bad way. What do you think?


----------



## Omegaa

Rookie4 said:


> Possibly, Omegaa, but I will take my own time, nevertheless. I wouldn't put too much importance in Statistics, they are only as good or bad as you make them.


Yes, of course.
:smthumbup:


----------



## Chaparral

Omegaa said:


> Hi all
> 
> I was looking for the right thread to post.
> 
> I'm a BS. I'm reconciling.
> 
> Apparently 80% who went for divorce after the discovery of cheating regretted having a divorce much later (in UK).
> 
> Reason? Love was simply stronger than destroying everything we had. So my answer is, yes, you CAN reconcile.


Statiscally,80% of couples wish they had reconciled and saved their families. The problem is it takes both spouses on board to reconcile at the time of the break up. Wishing for it months or years later or after they see what a mess they have made of their kids just makes the remorse too late with nothing left but wishful thinking.

The biggest reason on these threads is that the wife gets scamed, thinks she has met prince charming and throws her family under the bus and all princey wanted was to get laid.

When the husband cheats, the reconcilliaton rate is about triple the rate of the wife cheating.


----------



## Omegaa

chapparal said:


> The biggest reason on these threads is that the wife gets scamed, thinks she has met prince charming and throws her family under the bus and all princey wanted was to get laid.
> 
> When the husband cheats, the reconcilliaton rate is about triple the rate of the wife cheating.


Chappral

I think, you are so right in what you say. 

Logically, I knew I was going to be much better off without my WS when I found out that he was involved in a long-term physical affair (WS visited OW regularly as if he was visiting a free "Prostitute" freely giving herself away.) He was also guilty of unable to set boundaries with his young female colleagues and more...

Perhaps, women are more forgiving? Until I heard about this Stat, I was definitely divorcing. I was looking for my own place to move to etc. Perhaps, this Stat made me re-think and think long-term rather than thinking short-term e.g. about the next 6 months up to a year.

You are right. Men might/may be more willing to jump ship FAST. Perhaps, there are subtle / more overt differences according to gender. Thank you for your helpful post!

At least, after what happened, I know what to look out for and I would be able to pick up any weirdness straightaway when that happens and deal with it better than before.


----------



## Rookie4

Whip Morgan said:


> I should have been clearer about my last post concerning Plan A/B question. I meant it referring to the A in general.
> 
> Rookie, do you feel that in pushing you to move faster for R, do you feel that your ex is doing it in a way that is disrespectful to what your feelings are? From how you describe her I dont think its that way. Sounds like someone who knows how good something is and wants it, and cant help but keep pushing for it but not in a bad way. What do you think?


Honestly, Whip, I think she has learned so much in the past 2 years that she is further along the path of reconciliation than I am. She has never been pushy or tried to convince me of anything, more like she wants to reconcile so much and is anxious to prove herself worthy.


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> Honestly, Whip, I think she has learned so much in the past 2 years that she is further along the path of reconciliation than I am.


I agree with you, Rookie.

My "player" comments are with this in mind. IMO, if you are not fully committed to R, then you should carry on as you are now. Meet more women, not fewer.

Just don't string your ex along with talk (or hints) of R if your heart is not in it. I don't think that is fair to her, regardless of how she has hurt you in the past.


----------



## HappyHubby

Whip Morgan said:


> The only thing that would give me pause is what you stated above, that she now knows what its like to be with someone else. Any concern that she views you as Plan B, since Plan A with Brad didn't work out?


In the end you can't call Brad either a Plan A or a Plan B. She rejected him outright, even after being divorced and having no reasonable hope at R. If he was a plan B she would have enacted that plan by now. 

He is a plan NOTHING. He is not a part of her plans at all. It seems she has only a single plan in mind and that is to win the love of her life back. Rookie is her Plan A to Z.

Good luck to you guys.


----------



## Rookie4

HappyHubby said:


> In the end you can't call Brad either a Plan A or a Plan B. She rejected him outright, even after being divorced and having no reasonable hope at R. If he was a plan B she would have enacted that plan by now.
> 
> He is a plan NOTHING. He is not a part of her plans at all. It seems she has only a single plan in mind and that is to win the love of her life back. Rookie is her Plan A to Z.
> 
> Good luck to you guys.


This is the way I am beginning to see the situation, as well.


----------



## Rookie4

You, Guys and Gals have to realize that a lot of the info I have about my Ex's interactions with her OM< I'm getting from my "informant", at the hospital. (sort of like deepthroat to Nixon, he/she will remain nameless) but it seems that within the week of D-day, Brad was constantly moping around my ex, trying to get her to come back to him, but she was having none of it and ignored him until she finally talked to the Administrator and told him the whole story. They both were nearly fired, but were allowed to stay as long as there was NO contact between them other than work-related. It seems that Brad is a young guy who fell in love with an older woman and had a hard time realizing that it was over. But again, this is second hand.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> You, Guys and Gals have to realize that a lot of the info I have about my Ex's interactions with her OM< I'm getting from my "informant", at the hospital. (sort of like deepthroat to Nixon, he/she will remain nameless) but it seems that within the week of D-day, Brad was constantly moping around my ex, trying to get her to come back to him, but she was having none of it and ignored him until she finally talked to the Administrator and told him the whole story. They both were nearly fired, but were allowed to stay as long as there was NO contact between them other than work-related. It seems that Brad is a young guy who fell in love with an older woman and had a hard time realizing that it was over. But again, this is second hand.


Its good that you have someone on the inside getting your information for you. So she continued to work with him and essentially outed herself to her job? That's impressive. It might be the only time I've ever heard of a WS continuing to work with her AP and maintaining NC.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Its good that you have someone on the inside getting your information for you. So she continued to work with him and essentially outed herself to her job? That's impressive. It might be the only time I've ever heard of a WS continuing to work with her AP and maintaining NC.


Yes, in the beginning it made it easier for me to verify what she was telling me.


----------



## Acabado

You had a very remorseful wife since the begining. Sometimes it's irrelevant, it's BS's prerrogative and it was a dealbreaker.

Now you are considering go back to her it's nice to know you have a genuinely remorseful, consistent exwife. The required leap of faith is actually way smaller than the vast majority of cases. I can't remember a similar situation in the thousand of stories I've get to know the last three years.


----------



## alte Dame

Acabado said:


> You had a very remorseful wife since the begining. Sometimes it's irrelevant, it's BS's prerrogative and it was a dealbreaker.
> 
> Now you are considering go back to her it's nice to know you have a genuinely remorseful, consistent exwife. The required leap of faith is actually way smaller than the vast majority of cases. I can't remember a similar situation in the thousand of stories I've get to know the last three years.


She does seem consistent & has done her work without any encouragement from Rookie, which makes it much easier to believe that she is sincere. I actually feel for her in this situation. I bet she feels that she ruined her chances for happiness with some inexplicable behavior and terrible words that she couldn't take back. A second chance would be a godsend to her. I really feel for her.


----------



## snap

Hate to be the one to provide a cynical perspective, but how expensive was the divorce?

You are no longer an item in any sense. If it was amicable, fair and uncontested, perhaps you could give it another try. Otherwise, think twice before shooting yourself in the same foot again.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> You had a very remorseful wife since the begining. Sometimes it's irrelevant, it's BS's prerrogative and it was a dealbreaker.
> 
> Now you are considering go back to her it's nice to know you have a genuinely remorseful, consistent exwife. The required leap of faith is actually way smaller than the vast majority of cases. I can't remember a similar situation in the thousand of stories I've get to know the last three years.


Acabado, I really think that my refusal to let her come home, right after D-day was crucial to any long-term recovery. Admittedly, I was just angry , at the time and had no plan, but it seems that I got lucky, and that she was already remorseful and ashamed of herself, so my refusal reinforced that. Plus, unlike Brad, she never imagined anything long-term with him, and only went to his place because she had nowhere else to go. All of this came as a huge awakening to her, and burned off the fog, very quickly.


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> She does seem consistent & has done her work without any encouragement from Rookie, which makes it much easier to believe that she is sincere. I actually feel for her in this situation. I bet she feels that she ruined her chances for happiness with some inexplicable behavior and terrible words that she couldn't take back. A second chance would be a godsend to her. I really feel for her.


Dame, she has said the same thing at least 20 times to me. That she wishes she could turn back time.
The night her affair became physical, she had two choices to make and she chose wrong both times. She could have chosen to NOT get physically involved AND she could have come home afterwards and told me everything. I would have probably tried to work it out, in either case, but that is hindsight and I can't be sure. I might have reacted like I did on D-day and thrown her out. IDK. The trouble was that her anger, and pride wouldn't let her admit that she chose wrong, and everything afterwards ( the angry words and the boasting to her "friends") were attempts to put a good face on a horrible situation. She very quickly abandoned that idea and has been completely responsible and remorseful , ever since.
The trouble is that I couldn't or wouldn't believe her, because of my own pride and anger. I still have a lot of trouble with the things she said, even though , considering my "playing around", and her hard work and insistance that she meant none of them, and that they weren't true, in any case.


----------



## ilou

Rookie4 said:


> The trouble is that I couldn't or wouldn't believe her, because of my own pride and anger.


With good reason too. Just be wary bro. Don't jump deep into it. You know what she's capable of whether good or bad.

I haven't had a chance to read the whole forum but I hope you broke it off with the other lady that wants more than fwb.

Good luck!


----------



## Rookie4

snap said:


> Hate to be the one to provide a cynical perspective, but how expensive was the divorce?
> 
> You are no longer an item in any sense. If it was amicable, fair and uncontested, perhaps you could give it another try. Otherwise, think twice before shooting yourself in the same foot again.


Time will tell, Snap. I may give it a try, but I'm not rushing anything.


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks, iLou. I appreciate it.


----------



## Whip Morgan

If I remember correctly your ex gave her notice that she is leaving her job in January. So although she spoke to her supervisor about the workplace affair, she still had contact with her AP at the job. Do you think that fact influenced your decision to stay apart for the 2 years or so that you've been divorced?

I do commend her for informing her supervisor about the situation. I have seen first hand when coworkers do stupid things that affect their workplace, where the boss has to alter schedules and shifts, etc. It doesn't make management happy and very well could lead to termination, so I applaud her willingness to be open. I read Changing Me's post on another thread where she stated your ex is either totally genuine or a great actress. I agree with CM that it seems like the former.


----------



## Rookie4

Whip, it had it's influence, no doubt. But, to be fair, she has to live, right? And at that time , I wasn't giving her any encouragement, so she needed her job, but didn't want anything to do with brad. She was between a rock and a hard place. By informing her supervisor and the Administrator, she was able to get help with scheduling so as to have very minimal contact with him, and no personal contact at all.
As far as being a good actress, that is part of the problem, isn't it. With her past anger manegement issues , she is unable to act at all. What you see is what you get. I knew that from the start.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> As far as being a good actress, that is part of the problem, isn't it. With her past anger manegement issues , she is unable to act at all. What you see is what you get. I knew that from the start.


Good realization.


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> As far as being a good actress, that is part of the problem, isn't it. With her past anger manegement issues , she is unable to act at all. What you see is what you get. I knew that from the start.


That's really the sticking point now, I suppose. Those words she spoke. Some people say 'in anger veritas,' but it's also true that people will say awful things just to wound. 

No matter what motivated your W to unman you, the very fact of it must give you pause.

I'll tell you a story from when I was younger, though. (Briefly & will try not to bore.)

Before I was married I met a man when studying in another country. He was madly in love with me & his attention became too much for me, so I broke things off. I was young and self-centered and didn't care much for his feelings. When he kept trying to contact me, I said terrible things to him that I know I didn't mean. Later, of course, when I realized I really cared for him and tried see him, he told me simply that I had wounded him badly and he would never reconsider. I actually went back to that very city the next summer hoping to find him, but he had gone by then.

The moral is that I was sorry for what I had done & didn't mean what I said & the karma bus treated me the way it should. At the time, I knew I deserved his ultimate rejection, but would have wanted to be able to apologize to him.

Again, I think your W really is sorry. The words were terrible & you will have to live with those forever, but with time she may be able to make amends and those words can fade.


----------



## JCD

Here is the major danger as I read it.

This is a hypothetical, so treat it as such.

Say you reconcile. And one day you have a fight. And things get heated. Now, she's gone to anger management but...we're human and frankly, I wonder how well therapy works.

So as the words heat up, she say "Everything I told you about Brad was true!"

Ouch!

So...if you decide to reconcile, you need to callous your soul enough that these words won't destroy you, or you need to be willing to walk away if her anger issues crop up again to try to unman you.

Only you can judge if you are able to do either of these things.

But your obsession with this is a bit troubling. Do you want her to get a picture of his equipment to show to you?  So you want to set him up with a date with a girl you've been with so you can get third party testimony?

I've read your whole thread and the message I got before I finished the first post was 'I am going to reconcile. Am I totally stupid?" Because the only person who is defending your wife is you...and Abcado.

So you won't listen to anything I have to say on that front. You've made up your mind and I'll either give you validation you don't need or advice you don't want.

Good luck


----------



## bfree

I actually think his wife deserves a second chance as well. I do think she is remorseful and has really worked to become a better person. But rookie does not have to marry her. Like I said, they can be a couple until the day they both die but don't ever have to get married again. Many couples live happily without that artificial government stamped certification. If they are happy they stay together. If not they can both go their separate ways.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Quote of Rookie*
> She cheated, she will have to put up or shut up.


*Based on what you have written below she has put up big time!*



> Quotes of Rookie
> She has publically *begged my forgiveness several times* since and continues to do so , to this day
> 
> she has been an *open book* since the divorce,
> 
> has *done a LOT* to prove she has changed
> 
> She *doesn't blame me* for her affair
> 
> she began to cry, not silent tears but sobs and wails. She kept saying she was so , so sorry for what she did to me, how she thought about me all of the time and longed for me every night. *She begged , on her knees *for another chance. I was shocked beyond description. I did not know what to do, so* I left* the house. when I came back she was gone.
> 
> *Could I forgive her? Possibly*, if she can prove that those hateful words were just that, words spoken in anger, and not what she really believed, at the time
> 
> *she blames herself* for all of it, and when she found out, was a basket case.
> 
> I know her and she would NOT work this hard if she wasn't *completely committed* to self-improvement




Rookie, we have some similarities in our marriages/divorce

Your wife hurt you to the bone=CHECK

Your wife choose to commit the biggest marriage killers of all time=CHECK

You took action to prove that you are no door mat=CHECK

You got on in your life and learned that you can live without her=CHECK

Now you want to take your time=CHECK
I took over 4 years for remarriage

Now put on your seat belt

*Stop with the big d!ck obsession!*

First, everything that you wrote about your wife tells me that the bid d!ck words are what your wife said they were; to get your goat. The women that I have heard talk about this subject care very little or nothing about big d!ck

Big d!ck seems to be an issue that are more important to men by a huge margin; especially those that have a huge ego that is so huge that it is detrimental. Big d!cks do not make a man!

*If you are going to reconcile with your wife the big issue is not big d!ck but true forgiveness.*

You have every right to divorce your wife, you have every right to take years to check out real change, and you have every right to reconcile if that is what you are going to do. However, if you are going to forgive then maybe a better understanding of true forgiveness will help.

I noticed your words below on how you are adamant and stern on your criteria for forgiveness



> Quote of Rookie
> Before I make any kind of long-term decision, I will take MY time, and the R will be by MY instructions. If I tell her to take 50 lie-detector tests, she will take 50 lie-detector tests. My game, my rules. She gets no free passes, she will have to earn her way back. Honesty is non-negotiable.


*Right on Rookie!*

Now how about that forgiveness subject?
Have you ever really screwed up royally? I mean you just were selfish and you hurt someone bad? You admitted to kissing a woman in front of your wife but are there others? Now before you answer remember your words of “Honesty is non-negotiable.”

Now if you were selfish and hurt someone did you apply your own criteria for you to be forgiven? I hope so as your criteria are stern and good.

Now lets get back to your big d!ck obsession. Let us speculate that your wife really meant what she said ( I do not believe that) but lets play like OK?


True forgiveness requires you to forgive even though you have been hurt to the bone. Why? Because:

1	It will HELP YOU!

2	You do not want to be a hypocrite. You want to be forgiven but you want to hold out on someone else because your hurt is deep?

3	If you do love your wife like you say you do then you would want to free her of her tortured soul

4	If you truly forgive you will be blessed and so will your children

*I think the above will help you if you keep your ex-wife out of your life or if you reconcile.*

You can take your seat belt off now


Blunt (BS)


----------



## Rookie4

I like your post, Blunt, except for one thing. I'm not obsessed about my **** size, I'm obsessed by her words, huge difference. Actually she only mentioned size once, but mentioned his youth several times. Let's do it your way. IF she believed the words she said, then why would she want to reconcile with an older man that did not satisfy her? This would mean that she has a hidden agenda and is still being deceitful, which is a huge red flag, and reconciliation will probably not take place. If she did NOT mean her words , but lashed out verbally , with intent, that actually gives me more hope, because I KNOW about her anger management, and those words would be easier to get past.


----------



## happyman64

And you knowing what her anger issues really are, it sounds like those words were said to hurt you.

But only you can judge.

The real key is to see how she handles her emotions now......

Because if she truly wants to be with you, truly loves you then she will have used these past two tears to work on herself, her emotional issues.

So she does not screw up again.

Again, you be the judge.

And you are right, size is not the issue. If it really was she would have moved on from Brad for the next "bigger" guy.

Just enjoy the holidays with your family. And every "present" you get Rookie, you deserve. 

Just remember to say Thank You!


----------



## Chaparral

Rookie4 said:


> Whip, it had it's influence, no doubt. But, to be fair, she has to live, right? And at that time , I wasn't giving her any encouragement, so she needed her job, but didn't want anything to do with brad. She was between a rock and a hard place. By informing her supervisor and the Administrator, she was able to get help with scheduling so as to have very minimal contact with him, and no personal contact at all.
> As far as being a good actress, that is part of the problem, isn't it. With her past anger manegement issues , she is unable to act at all. What you see is what you get. I knew that from the start.


I may be wrong in this, but I think women will say/make up things to cut another person down much more than a man will. Men have to be more controlled because when a man says the wrong thing to another man, a physical fight is a likely outcome. On top of that, a woman will say things to a man that if another man said it, would result in an immediate brawl. Men aren't shocked when they run their mouth and get punched for their efforts. However, a woman can say anything with no fear that her (normal) husband will hit her. That makes the playing field out of balance. Not to mention the way women talk about each other.


----------



## sandc

Just now finding your thread and trying to catch up on it. I just want to say something about the pressure you are receiving from the Christian members of your friends and family. You are within your rights to divorce her as you have done. If you can forgive her one day, that's fine. That doesn't mean you have to take her back. When a transgression happens a penalty is usually paid forgiveness notwithstanding. Forgiveness doesn't mean you get out of paying the penalty. You have to reach inside yourself to make the decisions there.

Your wife sounds like she was deep deep in the affair fog. Once she came out of the fog she realized what she had done and started genuinely working to R with you. You're free at the moment. Do you want to be saddled with a woman who hurt you so badly? Do you want to start over with a new marriage to a new woman? There are plenty of women out there who don't cheat. Do you have so much time invested in your life with your XW that you'd rather just spend your remaining years with her? 

You're emotional baggage (which she gave you, thank you very much) will be with you either way. You'll have to deal with that either way. I don't know how to advise you other than to say you have to weigh the options and see what makes sense to you. What works best for you. If you decide you don't want her back then hopefully she can use this experience to become a better person for the next man in her life.

Oh, and you say you're 7.5 in and really thick? Yeah, she was most probably lying about the other guy being bigger. 99% sure of that. I'd kill for a unit like that.


----------



## Chaparral

bfree said:


> I actually think his wife deserves a second chance as well. I do think she is remorseful and has really worked to become a better person. But rookie does not have to marry her. Like I said, they can be a couple until the day they both die but don't ever have to get married again. Many couples live happily without that artificial government stamped certification. If they are happy they stay together. If not they can both go their separate ways.


One thing rookie can/should do is require a prenup on how things are divided if things do not work out. It will be a constant reminder to his wife that her debt has not been paid and things are not equal. Later on, as time passes, and she has maintained a good marrriage. The prenup can be altered or eliminated.

Good luck and prayers for your family Rookie. I feel like someday you may look back, like some of the other posters feel, that what happened was a wake up call and things are better than they would have been.


----------



## JCD

Rookie4 said:


> I like your post, Blunt, except for one thing. I'm not obsessed about my **** size, I'm obsessed by her words, huge difference. Actually she only mentioned size once, but mentioned his youth several times. Let's do it your way. IF she believed the words she said, then why would she want to reconcile with an older man that did not satisfy her? This would mean that she has a hidden agenda and is still being deceitful, which is a huge red flag, and reconciliation will probably not take place. If she did NOT mean her words , but lashed out verbally , with intent, that actually gives me more hope, because I KNOW about her anger management, and those words would be easier to get past.


Mmm...let's look at this.

We have three possible alternatives.

What she said was true

What she said was false

What she said was partially true

Rook, I hate to break it to you, but there are better lovers with bigger penises out there than you...maybe even better than ME!  This guy might be one of them.

Okay...here is the tough part. What does it matter? There are better writers than I am. I aspire to be better...but I also know that some people find pleasure in my writings. There are better advice givers than myself. But some people find value in what I dispense. There are better husbands and fathers out there than I am...but my family seems to take pleasure in my company.

And when she talked to Brad and he asked her who Van Halen was, her mind probably did a little lurch. WTF? When he griped because she had to take care of her daugther's move to college (or whatever) she had a double take. And when she faced the prospect of INTRODUCING her children who are 4 or 5 years younger than this POS, well...the insanity of what she was doing paled in comparision to an extra two or three inches. Sex is a very small (but important) part of our lives, a couple hours a week or so.

The 'Whole Package' isn't in one's boxers. It's everything else as well.

As far as a 'hidden' agenda, unless you have Steve Jobs money, there is nothing hidden. She wants an intact family. She wants the man who made her feel secure and loved for 24.5 years. She wants to be able to look in a mirror. She wants to get rid of this BLINDING amount of guilt. She fears the future of being alone and choose YOU out of all the men in the world to be with...even knowing what kind of uphill climb she will face. And unlike a lot of waywards, she put on her crampons and got her ice axe and she's been climbing Mt. Rookie.

Now it COULD be because she thinks you are easy. Have you been easy on her? I don't particularly think so. You haven't been horrid, but not easy.

Say she was lying? This is actually a bigger flag to me than if he was Ron Jeremy's love child. It means that she's willing to carve your heart out with a spoon over...trivia! Fights! She wanted to see you writhe. That bespeaks some serious cruelty.

Well, you have the answer to that. There is the door and Lowe's is open late for your lock changing needs!

Maybe he's bigger but not that great a lover. DId she complain about your technique for 25 years?

So...if you want to handle that, break out some books and do some research. I wouldn't suggest a Swedish Penis Enlarger Pump however.


----------



## Chaparral

Rookie4 said:


> I like your post, Blunt, except for one thing. I'm not obsessed about my **** size, I'm obsessed by her words, huge difference. Actually she only mentioned size once, but mentioned his youth several times. Let's do it your way. IF she believed the words she said, then why would she want to reconcile with an older man that did not satisfy her? This would mean that she has a hidden agenda and is still being deceitful, which is a huge red flag, and reconciliation will probably not take place. If she did NOT mean her words , but lashed out verbally , with intent, that actually gives me more hope, because I KNOW about her anger management, and those words would be easier to get past.


It seems to me you have answered your own question here. If she wanted the OM why didn't she just stay with him. How long did the affair go on? It sounds like she almost immediately figured out she had royally screwed up a great marriage. And with out any real, positive encouragement from you, she did not take the, just move on route, forget my husband and find someone else route. She did not want you back for the kids, they were pretty much grown. She did not want you back to save face, she confessed to everyone and their brother. She did not do it to look good. She wants you back for one reason, she lost the most important person in her life. NO one here has made this determined and effort to win back her man. It truly amazes me because I have read way over a thousand threads. This is the only one I have seen where the WW has done anything, much less all this, with no hope of being successful and no encouragement, indeed, just the opposite, and still she carries on.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of Rookie
> I like your post, Blunt, except for one thing. I'm not obsessed about my **** size, I'm obsessed by her words, huge difference


Ok, let me make one addition to my previous statement

If you are going to reconcile with your wife the big issue is not big d!ck *OR WORDS* but true forgiveness.




> True forgiveness requires you to forgive even though you have been hurt to the bone. Why? Because:
> 
> 1 It will HELP YOU!
> 
> 2 You do not want to be a hypocrite. You want to be forgiven but you want to hold out on someone else because your hurt is deep?
> 
> 3 If you do love your wife like you say you do then you would want to free her of her tortured soul
> 
> 4 If you truly forgive you will be blessed and so will your children
> 
> I think the above will help you if you keep your ex-wife out of your life or if you reconcile.



Rookie, we can get into a conversation about big d!cks or words but sooner or later you will have to decide on true forgiveness or not. That will be more important for you.

It does not matter what hurt you deeply, words, youth, big 
d1cks, etc. For you to get better you will need to get started on forgiveness. Forgiveness will be good for you whether you reconcile or keep her out of your life.

*Did you not want to address my earlier post on forgiveness or just an oversight?*

If you do not want to a talk about forgiveness then let me know and I will not bring it up again.

Blunt


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I like your post, Blunt, except for one thing. I'm not obsessed about my **** size, I'm obsessed by her words, huge difference. Actually she only mentioned size once, but mentioned his youth several times. Let's do it your way. IF she believed the words she said, then why would she want to reconcile with an older man that did not satisfy her? This would mean that she has a hidden agenda and is still being deceitful, which is a huge red flag, and reconciliation will probably not take place. If she did NOT mean her words , but lashed out verbally , with intent, that actually gives me more hope, because I KNOW about her anger management, and those words would be easier to get past.


I think its far more likely that she got swept up into the emotion and got very defensive with you. That's why she said what she did. Maybe part of her anger management issue. Remember what we tell a newly betrayed spouse rookie? Don't believe their words, what do their actions say? Well, what do her actions say to you?


----------



## larry.gray

I note great contrasts between the nature of your posts compared to another poster who's a bit closer to his wife's infidelity.



Rookie4 said:


> I want to take one minute to answer that "Keko" person's innuendos.
> Whatever happened between my wife and I, she was and is a WONDERFUL mother. I cannot find a single fault in her actions, in that regard.


Compare this to:



cantthinkstraight said:


> She printed out divorce papers from the county office, filled a lot of it out and left me a copy to go through and look over.
> In the "name change" portion, I was SO very tempted to cross
> out her maiden name and replace it with "Wh0re", but thought better of it.


You still love you ex-wife. You defend her unlike many other men in your shoes would.


----------



## berlin292

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with all you guys are saying. I guess that the way she compared Brad's love making to mine is the most difficult to get over. I wonder how those of you who have been cheated on, ever get over the comparisons, real or imagined between the husband and the lover?.


My wife cheated on me and she never compared me to the OM, or my love-making, the size of my tool. She just said that I'm controlling, I "impose my will" on people, her family feels uncomfortable around me, her friends don't want to socialize with me. (all BS, by the way, imagined my her).

But that was just too hurtful to consider reconciliation. So when I think about what your wife said to you, no wonder you're now divorced. She would have to really good to incredible lengths to justify reconciliation. She should have to demonstrate time and time again and over a significance period of time that she deserves a second chance. It's up to her. She has to make reconciliation happen, not you.


----------



## Wazza

berlin292 said:


> My wife cheated on me and she never compared me to the OM, or my love-making, the size of my tool. She just said that I'm controlling, I "impose my will" on people, her family feels uncomfortable around me, her friends don't want to socialize with me. (all BS, by the way, imagined my her).
> 
> But that was just too hurtful to consider reconciliation. So when I think about what your wife said to you, no wonder you're now divorced. She would have to really good to incredible lengths to justify reconciliation. She should have to demonstrate time and time again and over a significance period of time that she deserves a second chance. It's up to her. She has to make reconciliation happen, not you.


Yeah, my wife said a lot of that stuff too. It was affair fog. A couple of times they said to me "You're really nice, not at all like she said you would be." Lol.

She cringes at it now, too.


----------



## Rookie4

Blunt, I feel that forgiveness is just like the rest of reconciliation, a process. I will trust her more and forgive her more , as she earns it. I have been crystal clear TO her about what I expect FROM her. Marriage will NOT take place for several years , if ever. She knows and agrees with all of my conditions and expectations. Actually, in point of fact, she has imposed most of them , herself.


----------



## Rookie4

I do want to make this very important point. Other than the act of Divorce, I have NEVER vilified her, rebuked her, or badmouthed her to ANYONE. She is the one who confessed to all of our family and friends, she has ALWAYS taken ALL of the blame for the affair. She is far harder on herself than I have ever been or ever intend to be.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> 
> Blunt, I feel that forgiveness is just like the rest of reconciliation, a process. I will trust her more and forgive her more , as she* earns* it. I have been crystal clear TO her about what I expect FROM her. Marriage will NOT take place for several years , if ever. She knows and agrees with all of my conditions and expectations. Actually, in point of fact, she has imposed most of them , herself.



Rookie
You are a smart guy and very impressive and I agree with almost everything you said:

Reconciliation is a process
Trust must be earned
No guarantee of marriage
You have made your conditions and expectations very clear
Excellent Rookie!




> By Rookie
> I will ……. forgive her more, as she *earns* it



She cannot EARN forgiveness for what she did. 
*Do you think that she can do something that you will owe her forgiveness for her betrayal?*

Your forgiveness is an act of you GIVING her something that she does not EARN. Your act of giving her forgiveness is an act of a spiritual quality not anything that she can do so that you owe it to her. *That is the way I see it but do you disagree?*

*What part of my statement reprinted below do you disagree with?*

True forgiveness requires you to forgive even though you have been hurt to the bone. Why? Because:

1 It will HELP YOU!

2 You do not want to be a hypocrite. You want to be forgiven but you want to hold out on someone else because your hurt is deep?

3 If you do love your wife like you say you do then you would want to free her of her tortured soul

4 If you truly forgive you will be blessed and so will your children

I think the above will help you if you keep your ex-wife out of your life or if you reconcile.


----------



## sandc

I agree with Blunt's assessment of the qualities of forgiveness but I want to point out a couple of things. Forgiveness cannot be given unless asked for. Forgiveness does NOT mean that a penalty is not paid. 

I can forgive the man who broke into my house and stole my stuff if he comes and asks for forgiveness. Even if I forgive him he would still have to go to jail because that is the penalty for theft.

Has she truly asked you for forgiveness in a way that you believe she is sincere? Do *YOU* think the penalty has been paid?


----------



## Rookie4

Blunt, I can get along with 1,3, and 4. 2 is a hard nut, because of the pain, I suffered. So , in that respect I have not forgiven her completely, but in the other aspects I probably already have.. With regards to the act itself, I believe that it is a gift,but even gifts have to be earned in the case of infidelity. She has to prove herself worthy of the blessing.


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## Rookie4

Sandc, she has asked from the very first, for forgiveness. Many times over. I do not doubt her sincerity then or now.


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## alte Dame

I think we can come to forgive people for being human, for being flawed. We can actually have some compassion for them in this regard. We probably don't ever forgive the actual way that their flaws were manifested, though; we never really forgive the actual betrayal because it's a sign that they were OK at one point in their lives with not honoring us as the people supposedly closest to them.


----------



## Rookie4

Dame , this is what I'm talking about. I will probably never forgive the words she said, but I CAN let them go and not concentrate on them. I must say that she has made this easier by her actions to prove that she did not mean them and that they were said in anger, plus her background.


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> Dame , this is what I'm talking about. I will probably never forgive the words she said, but I CAN let them go and not concentrate on them. I must say that she has made this easier by her actions to prove that she did not mean them and that they were said in anger, plus her background.


I know what you mean. People will always say 'you need to forgive and forget,' but there are things for me that are in the past that I won't either forgive or forget, but I don't have to let them dictate my present or future. I don't have to be bitter and driven by the past.

And people do change, in my opinion. And they can be really sorry for what they've done. Your W sounds like she is truly sorry.


----------



## happyman64

You know Rookie when you say your ExW is harder on herself I think that is the best sign of self improvement there is for a WS.

She owns it. Period.

So few truly do.

Patience for both of you. I truly hope you find each other again and that your relationship is better tHan the 1st time.

It can be if you both want it to be.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Rookie4 said:


> I like your post, Blunt, except for one thing. I'm not obsessed about my **** size, I'm obsessed by her words, huge difference. Actually she only mentioned size once, but mentioned his youth several times.


Average size is about 4.5 -6 inches, don't worry, you got him on size, she lied. The only reason he was better is because its all in the mind. Dopamine loves novelty, just like when you do something new, after so much of it you become jaded.

How were the holidays?


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## Rookie4

The holidays were great!!!


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## CleanJerkSnatch

Have you dated anyone between the divorce and the now?


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Rookie4 said:


> The holidays were great!!!


Glad to hear they were. I read through and you have a good head on your shoulders. Taking her back is a risk, dating someone new is a risk. It all depends on what kind of investments you already have and what kind of losses you are willing to take.

You can get a new hot g/f that loves you, never cheat on you, honest, does not verbally abuse you etc etc etc

You can get back with your wife, whom you already have kids with, and have your "family" happy along with you.

Both scenarios have the risk of cheating but the only factor you do know is that the mother of your children has eaten cake, eaten the forbidden fruit, broken vows.

In the end all paths involve decisions. I'm sure you can be happy with whichever one you choose.

Reconciliation is always great but its a tough battle, you constantly have to remind yourself to forgive your wife every day and to renew your vow to love her, protect her, provide for her etc.


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> The holidays were great!!!


OK, I doubt I am alone in wanting you to spill a little here.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

alte Dame said:


> OK, I doubt I am alone in wanting you to spill a little here.


Of course you are.


----------



## Rookie4

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Have you dated anyone between the divorce and the now?


After I threw her out, I dated and had sex with many (too many) women.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Rookie4 said:


> After I threw her out, I dated and had sex with many (too many) women.


Don't flatter yourself. :lol:


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> OK, I doubt I am alone in wanting you to spill a little here.


Well, Dame , I can give you the basics, but most of what occured is too private for the open forum. Yes, we had sex multiple times, and it was indescribably good. She absolutely proved that she owns all of what happened and proved that her words were an angry outburst and not indicative of her true feelings. She was humble and open in such a way that I could not help but be proud of her and her courage. I now know that she loves and desires only me. That is the best Christmas present of all.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Well it seems you've taken care of yourself quite well, did you gain any weight after the divorce? Change in any way, physically, any style, clothes?


----------



## Rookie4

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Don't flatter yourself. :lol:


Not bragging , just telling it like it was. Somewhere between 18 and 25 women. I was a total pig.


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Dame , I can give you the basics, but most of what occured is too private for the open forum. Yes, we had sex multiple times, and it was indescribably good. She absolutely proved that she owns all of what happened and proved that her words were an angry outburst and not indicative of her true feelings. She was humble and open in such a way that I could not help but be proud of her and her courage. I now know that she loves and desires only me. That is the best Christmas present of all.


Well!  This is a very happy holiday indeed! Not that this is a surprise...your thread has been leading to this, and I am sincerely happy for you and hope things continue to work out.


----------



## Rookie4

I've always been pretty fit, but after she left, I did go to the gym more and began to upgrade my wardrobe and such. At first , of course I was doing it to punish my ex and regain my confidence. After a while I began to realize that I was getting hit on by really, really beautiful Ladies. So I guess I'm not the sh*thole I thought I was.


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> Well!  This is a very happy holiday indeed! Not that this is a surprise...your thread has been leading to this, and I am sincerely happy for you and hope things continue to work out.


Dame, to be honest, she has done almost all of the work with little or no encouragement from me.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Rookie4 said:


> At first , of course I was doing it to punish my ex and regain my confidence. After a while I began to realize that I was getting hit on by really, really beautiful Ladies. So I guess I'm not the sh*thole I thought I was.


Definitely damaged your ego after the fact, so that helped. Good to see you recovered.


----------



## Rookie4

Well, it wasn't much of my doing, Cleaner. More along the lines of being oblivious to things and then realizing how much like a baby duck I truly was.
An example was my daughter brought home a couple of her friends from college and one of the friends told my daughter what a "hunk" her Dad was. Caused no end of a spat between them. But me, being a total idiot, wasn't aware of what was going on.


----------



## Ostera

Rookie4 said:


> No, I was always going to f**k him up, It is simply a matter of getting him alone. Without witnesses he can go fish.


Rookie, your wife OWNS more of this than Brad does. You are directing you anger at the wrong person and in the wrong way. 

Kicking his [email protected]@ isn't going to fix anything. This is something a guy does when he is in his early 20's,,, and you aren't . I use to fight back then too. I'm 50 now. I'm not going to jail for my WW or anyone else.

My wife use to go to her X all the time when we fought. Would play the, we only talked game. bullsh1t. Then trickle me the truth weeks later when I pressed her.

Eventually when we had sex I treated her like the wh*re she is. 

I don't want to be that person. That is not who I am. That is who my wife is.

Be rational bro.


----------



## Rookie4

You really should read the whole thread. This subject got me banned for a few days, so I'm not talking about Brad any more.


----------



## sandc

Juicer messed up the OM too. I think he got banned by the local law enforcement professionals for a week or so. An angry juicing weightlifter is not someone you want to do the two fisted tango with.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Dame , I can give you the basics, but most of what occured is too private for the open forum. Yes, we had sex multiple times, and it was indescribably good. She absolutely proved that she owns all of what happened and proved that her words were an angry outburst and not indicative of her true feelings. She was humble and open in such a way that I could not help but be proud of her and her courage. I now know that she loves and desires only me. That is the best Christmas present of all.


Geez, get a room!!!!!

Oh, wait, guess you did! 

Glad it went so well for you. Fingers crossed for a long and happy future.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie and his magic c0ck strikes again

glad to hear you had a good xmas


----------



## Rookie4

No magic ****, AR, but definitely a magic moment. Jay And The Americans - "This Magic Moment" - YouTube


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> Dame , this is what I'm talking about. I will probably never forgive the words she said, but I CAN let them go and not concentrate on them. I must say that she has made this easier by her actions to prove that she did not mean them and that they were said in anger, plus her background.


You need to forgive those words.

To forgive those words does not mean you will forget the pain they caused.

Though as time passes the recalling of those words will happen less and less and the pain that happens will have almost faded to the point when you have that rare trigger the pain and memory will disappear as fast as the memory appeared.


----------



## warlock07

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Dame , I can give you the basics, but most of what occured is too private for the open forum. Yes, we had sex multiple times, and it was indescribably good. She absolutely proved that she owns all of what happened and proved that her words were an angry outburst and not indicative of her true feelings. She was humble and open in such a way that I could not help but be proud of her and her courage. I now know that she loves and desires only me. That is the best Christmas present of all.


So pics are out of the question then ?? Damn!!

:rofl:


----------



## Rookie4

Believe me , Warlock, pics wouldn't do her justice. I have pocket hankies with more material than she was wearing. We have Christmas in a large old farmhouse, and I asked her if she didn't think she would get cold, and she said that she figured I would soon warm her up, just fine. Hey, when she's right, she's right.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Believe me , Warlock, pics wouldn't do her justice. I have pocket hankies with more material than she was wearing. We have Christmas in a large old farmhouse, and *I asked her if she didn't think she would get cold, and she said that she figured I would soon warm her up, just fine*. Hey, when she's right, she's right.


Now that's girl game!


----------



## warlock07

> I asked her if she didn't think she would get cold, and she said that she figured I would soon warm her up, just fine.


Clever girl.


what happened to FWB?


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> what happened to FWB?


I'd say rookie's description is definitely a benefit! And I think I might feel pretty friendly if I were him all things considered.


----------



## old timer

Chiming in a little late on the "forgiveness" issue...

An earlier poster stated something akin to: 
_*"forgiveness must be asked for"*_.

IMO, forgiveness for being wronged by someone else is not something you do implicitly for the transgressor, but rather something you do for yourself. 

Once you have forgiven the wrong, you can move more steadily toward putting it behind you.

Please note - I did not say "forget".


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Clever girl.
> 
> 
> what happened to FWB?


WE broke up. She just wanted much more than I could give. Reconciliation is hard enough without stressing about another person, and I have always told her that I didn't want anything other than the FWB thing, but she went and fell in love with me, so it wasn't going to end well, and it didn't.


----------



## Rookie4

That is the one memory of the Holidays that I take no pride in.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> That is the one memory of the Holidays that I take no pride in.


Why not? You were up front and honest with her. You did not keep her as a backup and did not string her along. I think you did everything just right. Give yourself a little credit and cut yourself some slack.


----------



## Rags

bfree said:


> Why not? You were up front and honest with her. You did not keep her as a backup and did not string her along. I think you did everything just right. Give yourself a little credit and cut yourself some slack.


:iagree:

YOu didn't ask for, or exepct anything more than FWB (regardless of what one may tink of that.)

Good that you ended it, rather than dragging it out, and stringing her along.


----------



## Acabado

I understand you don't like to cause pain but actually you stoped her to get hurt further. Remember when she told she wouln't give up? You did the right. You are setting her free. She will get past it and will find something better suited.


----------



## Rookie4

Guys, she is a really good person, and if I had not decided to R with my ex, I would probably have tried to work something out with her. I take no pleasure in dumping her at Christmas time, either. I feel like a class A *******.


----------



## warlock07

Make sure she gets the message loud and clear. No half measure so as not to hurt her.


----------



## Rags

We understand Rookie, and I know what you mean - but it would be crueller to give her false hope, and would be wrong for you, and your possibly R'ing ex, too.


----------



## Chaparral

Almostrecovered said:


> Rookie and his magic c0ck strikes again
> 
> glad to hear you had a good xmas


I knew you would chime in on this.:smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Make sure she gets the message loud and clear. No half measure so as not to hurt her.


I told her that I did not love her and never would, and that I would not ever see her again. Plus, I did it in person. Then went to a bar to see if I could drink the bad taste out of my mouth.


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> I told her that I did not love her and never would, and that I would not ever see her again. Plus, I did it in person. Then went to a bar to see if I could drink the bad taste out of my mouth.


This is very hard. If it helps any, from the woman's perspective it's easier to know that the man you are falling in love with is choosing instead a woman that he has a long, long history with. Somehow it makes it easier psychologically.


----------



## sandc

Yep. Everyone has feelings and everyone can be hurt.


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> This is very hard. If it helps any, from the woman's perspective it's easier to know that the man you are falling in love with is choosing instead a woman that he has a long, long history with. Somehow it makes it easier psychologically.


I sure hope so , Dame. We have shared a lot of good times together, and I certainly want nothing but the best for her.


----------



## Acabado

She will "understand".


----------



## alte Dame

It should help her to know that she is losing out to your XW. She will think, "Oh, well, it was wonderful while it lasted, but I suppose I never really had a chance." Her ego is not particularly bruised as a result.

You have to really keep it broken off, though, Rookie.


----------



## Rookie4

I know that I cannot see her again, even if my R with my ex doesn't work out. I really don't think that if this R doesn't happen, that I will be in the market for another LTR for a while yet. I'm not going to do anything rash, in any case.


----------



## cabin fever

you did the right thing. 

you can't walk forward, if you keep looking back. You didn't want a relationship with the FWB. She did. You did the right thing. 

You want to Reconcile with the Ex. You can't do that with a FWB. You did the right thing. 

good luck.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie, just expressing again my admiration for how you are handling this. The FWB was the one thing that worried me a bit. Glad you sorted it out.


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Rookie4 said:


> Well, it wasn't much of my doing, Cleaner. More along the lines of being oblivious to things and then realizing how much like a baby duck I truly was.
> An example was my daughter brought home a couple of her friends from college and one of the friends told my daughter what a "hunk" her Dad was. Caused no end of a spat between them. But me, being a total idiot, wasn't aware of what was going on.


That caused a spat? When I was in college and parents visited, us girls, dorm-mates and sorority sisters, felt it was complimentary when others commented on our hot dads.


----------



## Rookie4

Cabin Fever, Wazza, I did what had to be done. I do not feel praiseworthy or admirable for doing it.


----------



## Rookie4

Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> That caused a spat? When I was in college and parents visited, us girls, dorm-mates and sorority sisters, felt it was complimentary when others commented on our hot dads.


RG, I suspect that the situation is a bit different . In my daughter's case, she is very sensitive to anything that iinvolves me with other women, regardless of age.
This is one of the reasons I keep my relationships with other women very quiet.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Rookie your Christmas was a lot more exciting than mine! How are your children responding to you and your ex getting together? I'm sure they're happy, but any concerns that they would push for any commitment that you're wanting to make yet? Or are they just happy that you're happy?


----------



## warlock07

Couldn't resist posting this Rookie

American Beauty Mena Suvari, Thora Birch chat scene - YouTube


----------



## Rookie4

Whip Morgan said:


> Rookie your Christmas was a lot more exciting than mine! How are your children responding to you and your ex getting together? I'm sure they're happy, but any concerns that they would push for any commitment that you're wanting to make yet? Or are they just happy that you're happy?


The two youngest are making noises like we are already back together, so I had to caution them about moving too fast. The oldest is taking a "wait and see", approach.


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Couldn't resist posting this Rookie
> 
> American Beauty Mena Suvari, Thora Birch chat scene - YouTube


Too funny, Warlock. But , to be fair, when I was in HS, we rated the hottest Moms , too.


----------



## Whip Morgan

I take it your wife has been supportive and cooperative in taking that approach with your youngest children?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

She really has been trying to keep it low-key, and I appreciate that very much. To be honest, she has taken a far more mature attitude to R than either family. She has repeatedly stated her willingness to go at MY pace and abide by My rules. I now believe that she is truly an open book, and she has said that all she asks of me is the opportunity.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, I mentioned to her that I had broken up with my GF. She was very happy and cried some, but continued to say that until we have definitely decided to R, she feels she has no right to ask exclusivity of me. I ask her how she feels about me seeing other women, she said that she HATES it but understands my needs. She told me that she has NOT seen anyone else and WILL not see anyone else, until I decide that R isn't going to happen, and then she said that anyone else would be "planB' and she doesn't think she could ever love anyone as much as she loves me. That was nice, don't you think?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, I mentioned to her that I had broken up with my GF. She was very happy and cried some, but continued to say that until we have definitely decided to R, she feels she has no right to ask exclusivity of me. I ask her how she feels about me seeing other women, she said that she HATES it but understands my needs. She told me that she has NOT seen anyone else and WILL not see anyone else, until I decide that R isn't going to happen, and then she said that anyone else would be "planB' and she doesn't think she could ever love anyone as much as she loves me. That was nice, don't you think?


Nice? Nice? Nice is when my wife pours me a coffee without me asking. I don't think I have a word to describe this.


----------



## Rookie4

Well, it seems nice to me, considering how she used to act, pre-affair. She has really worked hard and come to grips with her feelings and I have to say how inpressed I am with that and proud of her for her honest self-appraisal. She said that losing me was the worst thing that has ever happened to her, and it took that kind of tragedy to make her see the person she had become, and to really dedicate herself to being the kind of woman that I would WANT to give a second-chance to. And you know what? I'm really beginning to believe her.


----------



## walkonmars

Obviously I don't know her. Or you.
But your posts, which I assume are objective. Say she's truly remorseful, grateful to have any opportunity, and committed to what you want. 

I just don't see any downside. 
I'm a realist first and also a romantic (they're not mutually exclusive at all!) I think you can't miss. Not at all.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> I'm really beginning to believe her.


We believe when we see consistent actions over time, actions matching words, coherence in behavior, no dissonance, a clear path...
I believe you can freely remove the wall of distrust or disbelief.
Another thing is the reconection but the requeriments are obviusly met. IMHO.


----------



## Chaparral

H ave you gone over the wayward spouse instructions with her?


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Well, it seems nice to me, considering how she used to act, pre-affair. She has really worked hard and come to grips with her feelings and I have to say how inpressed I am with that and proud of her for her honest self-appraisal. She said that losing me was the worst thing that has ever happened to her, and it took that kind of tragedy to make her see the person she had become, and to really dedicate herself to being the kind of woman that I would WANT to give a second-chance to. And you know what? I'm really beginning to believe her.


I think the actions you took and continue to take made a believer out of her.....

I hope that both of you have a great New years Eve and your New Years resolution is hers as well!!


----------



## Rookie4

chapparal said:


> H ave you gone over the wayward spouse instructions with her?


Huh? Wha? There's a book of INSTRUCTIONS? Is this something I've missed, in all of the hoopla? WOW!!


----------



## Rookie4

happyman64 said:


> I think the actions you took and continue to take made a believer out of her.....
> 
> I hope that both of you have a great New years Eve and your New Years resolution is hers as well!!


Thanks HM, and a Happy New Year to you and yours.


----------



## JCD

Rookie4 said:


> That is the one memory of the Holidays that I take no pride in.


Good for you. You are a MAN of character. Being a man (multi gender) means you aren't perfect. But having a moral center allows you to know when you move off center plumb. Your actions might have been totally above board, but that doesn't remove the fact that they cause someone else pain and that you own up to that fact. It shows empathy. Honesty and integrity suck in that regard: doing things which are difficult and painful, not always just for yourself.

It seems your WW also has a working moral compass.

Both of you seem to be owning your own crap.


----------



## JCD

Rookie4 said:


> Well, it seems nice to me, considering how she used to act, pre-affair. She has really worked hard and come to grips with her feelings and I have to say how inpressed I am with that and proud of her for her honest self-appraisal. She said that losing me was the worst thing that has ever happened to her, and it took that kind of tragedy to make her see the person she had become, and to really dedicate herself to being the kind of woman that I would WANT to give a second-chance to. And you know what? I'm really beginning to believe her.


bfree is suggesting that a much greater superlative than 'nice' is necessary for that attitude.


----------



## Rookie4

JCD said:


> bfree is suggesting that a much great superlative than 'nice' is necessary for that attitude.


I know, but superlatives need to be used sparingly, or they are meaningless.


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> I know, but superlatives need to be used sparingly, or they are meaningless.


Sparingly yes. But sometimes superlatives do apply.

Are you ready for a relationship with this new (and apparently better) woman that looks a lot like your ex-wife, and seems to share some of her memories?

If you're serious about dating, exclusivity does tend to be part of the usual package.


----------



## Malaise

Rookie4 said:


> Cabin Fever, Wazza, I did what had to be done. I do not feel praiseworthy or admirable for doing it.


This is what makes you one of the good guys.

If you had any pleasure in doing it, I , for one, would have less respect for you.

As it is, I think you have a lot of character.

Good luck to you and your lady.


----------



## walkonmars

Gary Cooper/High Noon 

Rookie sometimes evokes rememberance of the lead character


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I know, but superlatives need to be used sparingly, or they are meaningless.


Understatements are just as useless as overstatements.


----------



## Rookie4

Rags said:


> Sparingly yes. But sometimes superlatives do apply.
> 
> Are you ready for a relationship with this new (and apparently better) woman that looks a lot like your ex-wife, and seems to share some of her memories?
> 
> If you're serious about dating, exclusivity does tend to be part of the usual package.


Rags, exclusivity in my case is the goal, and will be implimented gradually, as she proves herself trustworthy. One thing that scares me is how some BS's are too quick to forgive and end up sending the wrong signal that they are people who can be disrespected without consequences. I don't think my ex feels that way, especially after the divorce, but she still has to prove herself long-term.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Understatements are just as useless as overstatements.


Very true, bfree, but I made sure that she knows how much I'm pleased by her actions .


----------



## Rookie4

Malaise and Walkonmars, thanks but bullsh*t. I' am a manufacturing Engineer from Podunk, Kentucky. I sometimes drink too much, I have a mean streak and I can't dance a lick. I'm nowhere's near being any kind of a role model, I just try to do my best.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Malaise and Walkonmars, thanks but bullsh*t. I' am a manufacturing Engineer from Podunk, Kentucky. I sometimes drink too much, I have a mean streak and I can't dance a lick. I'm nowhere's near being any kind of a role model, I just try to do my best.


You are an engineeer. You live in Kentucky. And you must have at least attempted to dance in order to know you suck at it. 



You're still my hero.


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> One thing that scares me is how some BS's are too quick to forgive and end up sending the wrong signal that they are people who can be disrespected without consequences.


Dude, you've got that covered. In spades.

If she blames herself for all of the women you slept with as you report, then she considers herself punished plenty.


----------



## Rookie4

She blames herself for everything, from Pearl Harbor to the Lindbergh Kidnapping. One of our main issues is how to help her with her guilt and shame. She thinks more about me than she does about herself.


----------



## larry.gray

The question is if she's forgiven herself? If she hasn't, then it would be an incredible gift to her to help her do it.


----------



## Rookie4

I think allowing her to come for Christmas did her a lot of good, but complete forgiveness is still aways ahead, yet. But we are both getting there, slowly but surely. New Year's Eve she said that every moment she spends with me is more precious to her than anything else in the world. I told her that I thought I would be able to get over her cruel words, and that 2013 would be better for US. She cried a lot, but they seemed to be very happy tears.


----------



## Paladin

Rookie4 said:


> She blames herself for everything, from Pearl Harbor to the Lindbergh Kidnapping. One of our main issues is how to help her with her guilt and shame. She thinks more about me than she does about herself.


My fWW and I struggle with this a year + into R. It can sometimes feel overwhelming to see my wife blame herself for everything, calling herself bad and evil. All I can do is try and help her see the progress she has made and the good she does on a daily basis. There are nights where im scared she will never be able to forgive herself, and I know in my heart of hearts that forgiveness is necessary for R.


----------



## Wazza

22 years out my FWW has yet to forgive herself. Hard to say which of us was hurt more by her actions.


----------



## bfree

I'm beginning to think that a WS is affected longer than the BS in many cases, even if they aren't remorseful. My ex is still so bitter to this day that her life has turned out to be just completely awful. Meanwhile while I was in much more pain initially I did eventually get over it and move on to have a wonderful life and new marriage. I've seen many WS on here that are remorseful and every day they really beat themselves up over the pain they caused. Its interesting but EI seems to be the one WS I've seen that is not only remorseful but seems to be genuinely happy right now. I think a lot of it is how B1 has handled their R. The most important thing I read B1 say is that he really truly wants his wife to be happy. I think that statement, even more than him forgiving her, really seemed to help her feel happy. At least that's my opinion.


----------



## alte Dame

My experience in life tells me that some people can and do in fact change. Obviously, they can sometimes change for the worse, and sadly those are the cases we notice most in our lives and especially here on TAM.

So, I'm not one to believe that people are simply hard-wired in terms of their behavior. Genetics does a lot (probably most things), but we have a lot of latitude in many areas of our lives.

Let me say that I think that your W is in a family environment that encourages her to generate positive change for herself. Although her A represented the standard 'fog' that we always read about, you reacted forcefully and definitively. She wasn't coddled, excused, or rewarded for her transgressions. Your children, your family in general seems to have been a positive reinforcement for her that has helped her want to find her way to becoming a person she can respect.

I think that's what she's done. She can respect the way she lives her life now. She cannot respect what she did to betray you (and can't forgive herself for it), but she is making her best effort to lead a life that she can respect going forward.


----------



## Acabado

You are going to help her stop the self loathing and flagelation and start the path to self forgiveness. She's reponsible for what she did. Period.
Her actions prove she's not the woman who did that horrible thing, she has been putting distance beyond that woman and who she really is. She decided to not get defined by that actions by writting new pages in her life record. It's time for her to start believing it. If not self forgiveness something more like acceptance. She doesn't need it to keep going forward the path she chose for herself.


----------



## Rookie4

I agree, she really beats herself up, sometimes, and It's hard for me to understand what I can do to help her. HUh, imagine that, ME helping HER? Seems like I've caught the R bug pretty seriously.


----------



## Wiserforit

hi *Rookie4* - 

Textbook move with the instant 180, booting her out, and divorce. Congratulations. I think this had a lot to do with the sudden turn-around on her part. When we enable cake-eating... they keep eating cake!

I did some things just the same - came down like a hammer with kicking her out, filing for divorce immediately, and forcing her to face the full consequences of her actions. 

As with yours that did cause a melt-down in their little fantasy world with rent, utilities, food, and a car payment to make. The need for meat and potatos suddenly arose. Working third shift as you did is no longer looked upon with resentment but with the sudden shock of realization that's what you need in a man. Their thinking is so disturbed in the fog that you have to jolt them out of it. 

I wanted reconciliation, but only under my full terms and she was not willing to give me that. She was narcissistic to the max and it wasn't just that the affair was over, but she was going to have to start pulling weight in the marriage instead of me just financing all her little recreational pursuits. That was an enabling factor I was no longer going to allow. So we parted ways. 

Yours on the other hand has demonstrated the kinds of things that would have mattered to me. So good luck and congratulations regardless of how it works out. This proves the value of bringing down the thunder and having steel-reinforced concrete boundaries regardless of whether it ends in permanent divorce or reconciliation.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, she really beats herself up, sometimes, and It's hard for me to understand what I can do to help her. HUh, imagine that, ME helping HER? Seems like I've caught the R bug pretty seriously.


You don't need to make up a thing. In order to reconcile with her you need to forgive her and you will do it because you believe she's forgivable based on her behavior since DDay.
Print this thread and your post in R, get a marker and highlight her actions, her attitude whatever you believe is worth of your forgiverness. Or get a notebook and write down it all, the truth about her, putting aside your pride. 
Then tell her.
Do it because it's genuine, not to be nice to her.
It's unlikely the self loathing is going to stop because of it. It's up to her to find a way. But maybe hearing you can set it in motion.
I suspect you won't like a wife who's continuously beating herself, proclaiming what a piece of sh1t she is... you want an strong partner. Trust me in this. She is right to be humble but not to humiliate herself. You won't like it.
I encouraged you to read about forgiveness, maybe it would help you with this R.

I wanted to point out something sadly too common. Many waywards, the unremorseful ones, go back to church right after DDay only to proclaim two weeks later they have been "forgiven" so they don't need to rehash the past.


----------



## Wazza

I struggle with what forgiveness means.

I think I have forgiven, but I will never forget. I will never be able to make it as if she never had an affair.

Sometimes that is not a bad thing. We no longer take each other for granted.

I did the same as Acabado. I acknowledge the good she has done as well as the bad.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, she really beats herself up, sometimes, and It's hard for me to understand what I can do to help her. HUh, imagine that, ME helping HER? Seems like I've caught the R bug pretty seriously.


It beats bedbugs Rookie.


----------



## Rookie4

Guys and Gals, I think that my forgiveness of her is only part of the equation. She realizes, from her therapy, that her issues go back way before the affair, before even our marriage. I'm just a Layman, but I could always see that she had lots of trouble "letting go", of anything that disturbed her, hence her anger management issue. There is no doubt that she will need counseling for quite a while.
She has done a huge amount since the affair, in fact, I would say that since the affair, she has been the person she was at the beginning of our marriage, the woman I fell for , head over heels. 
For me to forgive her and re-commit to her, I need some kind of assurance that she will not, at some time in the future ,revert to the cruel, hateful wife who cheated.


----------



## Rookie4

To finish this line of thought, the assurance I want is that the issues that caused her cheating and anger need to be laid to rest permanently and "let go of". I definitely can let go of her affair, but I have to be sure of the person I'm committing to.


----------



## JCD

Rookie4 said:


> To finish this line of thought, the assurance I want is that the issues that caused her cheating and anger need to be laid to rest permanently and "let go of". I definitely can let go of her affair, but I have to be sure of the person I'm committing to.


I don't know that this is a realistic standard. This isn't math. Her personality trait is not a tumor, able to be removed.

I think a more obtainable goal is she gains enough self realization that she is starting to go off the deep end, and enough coping skills to deal with it if that happens.

And (sigh) also that you have enough awareness to realize that every time she is angry, she isn't necessarily wrong.

The forgiving spirit will have to a part of your relationship going forward because like an alcoholic, she might have a few relapses.

This isn't what you want to hear, but having a woman who is 98% who you had is pretty darn good because toward the end of your marriage, were you getting even that?


----------



## Rookie4

JCD said:


> I don't know that this is a realistic standard. This isn't math. Her personality trait is not a tumor, able to be removed.
> 
> I think a more obtainable goal is she gains enough self realization that she is starting to go off the deep end, and enough coping skills to deal with it if that happens.
> 
> And (sigh) also that you have enough awareness to realize that every time she is angry, she isn't necessarily wrong.
> 
> The forgiving spirit will have to a part of your relationship going forward because like an alcoholic, she might have a few relapses.
> 
> This isn't what you want to hear, but having a woman who is 98% who you had is pretty darn good because toward the end of your marriage, were you getting even that?


I understand that she will have episodes where some of her old characteristics will re-emerge. Having said that, however, there are issues where 98% won't cut it. As far as fidelity goes it must be 100% or nothing. I will accept nothing less than complete and permanent faithfulness. Regardless of her mood or personal issues. At the first hint of anything else, she will never get another chance.
But she already knows this. My boundary is set and firm. No contact of any kind with a man outside of work, who is not a member of our family. Period. No excuses, no Mulligans. This includes tradesmen, salesmen, on-line or anywhere else.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, she set this boundary, not me.


----------



## JCD

I didn't suggest that fidelity is 98%. I am suggesting that anger might not be perfect.


----------



## Rookie4

JCD said:


> I didn't suggest that fidelity is 98%. I am suggesting that anger might not be perfect.


I don't expect her not to get angry, I expect her to channel it into productive avenues, and communicate it to me in a positive manner. BTW she also agrees with this , as does her counselor.


----------



## JCD

Rookie4 said:


> I don't expect her not to get angry, I expect her to channel it into productive avenues, and communicate it to me in a positive manner. BTW she also agrees with this , as does her counselor.


That is realistic. But people aren't perfect. Just saying.


----------



## Wazza

My wife still has the faults that led to her affair. We work on it together, and I support her, as she supports me. It is actually kind of nice to know that we are there for each other in that way.


----------



## Acabado

Anger management is that, management, improvement, not erasing.
Of course, fidelity is all or nothing.


----------



## Rookie4

Guys and Gals, I will be on and off for a while as I'm changing jobs. Getting back to the Engineering and getting out of the management. I HATED being a supervisor, I'm more of a Lab kind of guy. So I'll talk at you later, Gator.


----------



## happyman64

Good luck on the new job Rookie.....


----------



## JCD

It's nice to occasionally read a good news thread. Thanks for this.

It is even nicer to read a thread where the guy isn't a pvssy, waiting and waiting for things to change while avoiding all confrontation and not standing one's ground at all.


----------



## Enchanted

Rookie4 said:


> I understand that she will have episodes where some of her old characteristics will re-emerge. Having said that, however, there are issues where 98% won't cut it. As far as fidelity goes it must be 100% or nothing. I will accept nothing less than complete and permanent faithfulness. Regardless of her mood or personal issues. At the first hint of anything else, she will never get another chance.
> But she already knows this. My boundary is set and firm. No contact of any kind with a man outside of work, who is not a member of our family. Period. No excuses, no Mulligans. This includes tradesmen, salesmen, on-line or anywhere else.


The truth is that she's more susceptible to cheating since she's already done it. She'll promise you that she'll never cheat again but she still might. It all depends upon how much she values the marriage.


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Rookie4 said:


> Hi, I 've been lurking here for a while , trying to decide if I want to get involved .
> My situation is that while I'm getting some good advice from an Individual Counselor, I would also like to get some from other people who have been in my shoes, so to speak.
> I was married for 25 years, and * have two kids.* My ex-wife and I had , what I would have termed *(until a year ago) *a great marriage.


There are a lot of inconsistencies in your posts, such as the number of children you have, and how many years ago this all happened (you have referred to one year ago, two years ago, two- and a half years ago)--what's up with that?


----------



## Rookie4

Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> There are a lot of inconsistencies in your posts, such as the number of children you have, and how many years ago this all happened (you have referred to one year ago, two years ago, two- and a half years ago)--what's up with that?


Read the whole thing and your questions will be answered. Number of Kids, WE have two, I have three. But thanks for the monitoring, sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes we think faster than we type.


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Rookie4 said:


> Read the whole thing and your questions will be answered. Number of Kids, WE have two, I have three. But thanks for the monitoring, sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes we think faster than we type.


Post #74, "the mother of my 3 children" ?

Why do you stress, in many posts, that you did not talk to your wife for months after the affair was revealed, yet your post #457 states that you were glad to have your "informant" because "in the beginning it made it easier to verify what she'd been telling me"?

I read the whole thread in one sitting, and the numerous inconsistencies, such as your timeline being all over the place, really stand out to me.


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## Rookie4

The mother of MY 3 children. Understand , rubberband? I am truly sorry that my posts do not meet with your standards, and that you are disappointed by my "inconsistancies". LOL It may surprise you to know that I did not come to TAM to provide you with amusement or an avenue for your sleuthing. I wasn't aware that you are the consistancy monitor.I have told of my situation as best as I can, you are free to think what you will. Now, if you have finished threadjacking, please confine yourself to the subject.


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## Rookie4

If you are trying to start trouble or if you are calling me a liar, then I will notify the moderators.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Rookie4 said:


> The mother of MY 3 children. Understand , rubberband? I am truly sorry that my posts do not meet with your standards, and that you are disappointed by my "inconsistancies". LOL It may surprise you to know that I did not come to TAM to provide you with amusement or an avenue for your sleuthing. I wasn't aware that you are the consistancy monitor.I have told of my situation as best as I can, you are free to think what you will. Now, if you have finished threadjacking, please confine yourself to the subject.


No, I do not understand, which is why I am asking for an explanation and clarification. The context in which you were using the phrase is for establishing that this woman gave birth to your three children. This is not out of thin air--these are your contradictory words in various posts. It is interesting that you are so quick to anger, name-calling, and threats--yet you are not answering my questions, which _are_ on the "subject".

So, what about the timeline--one year ago, two years ago, two and a half years ago? One of your posts, in which you were speaking in present tense, had you stating that Brad had only been working with the hospital for this past year. The timing is off, and is confusing for those reading the thread.


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## ConanHub

Rookie4 said:


> When she found out I was sleeping with a younger woman, she came to the house and was sobbing and asked , " How could you forget me so fast?" I didn't know how to answer her.


I know everything has already happened but I started laughing at this one!!!:rofl:

It just shows how self absorbed cheaters really are.


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## happyman64

So Rookie I saw your post on the "R" thread.

Very sorry to hear about the separation.

May I ask if the decision was mutual???

HM


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