# How to deal with unprovoked outburst of anger?



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't want to repeat the whole scene, I posted in "general."
but I do want your advice on how to deal now.
Suffice to say:
H had a temper tantrum in response to me saying
"you don't need to snap at me about it"
and
"how was your day, dear?"
he flipped, then got even madder because I responded.
Then wants to act like nothing's wrong.
And will get mad at me if I try to talk to him about it.

Does he want me to just sit submissively and take his tantrums whenever??
Is this an unconscious "fitness test"? ----setting me up to react so he can claim I'm trying to control him and push him...

My inclination is NOT to bring it up.
I have a feeling that would be "owning his reactions."
if HE overreacted, HE should realize it.
Trouble is, I'm afraid that he won't. And we'll just keep going on in passive aggressive silence.
Hate that.

But I don't know what to do.
?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I have a REALLY weird suggestion. Either buy or get a voice-activated recorder, and carry it on you so that the next time there is a screaming match like this, you have an objective recording of it. 

Then, when you are not so "involved" in the argument, ask the counselor if you can have a private session to go over one of your arguments. At the private session, play the recording. 

Here's why I suggest that. From what you describe, there is some truth to the ideas vthome is telling you about wanting to be "right" more than wanting peace...and there is some truth to what the counselor is saying too about there being cycle to the way you two interact. I call it a "Dance" and there's even a book about it called "Dance of Anger"--but just to give you a way to envision your fights, one of you makes the first dance move forward and the other does a dance step back...then the second does a dance step forward and the first moves back. It's not just your husband who's dancing--you're dancing too. And in order to stop the cycle, you need to stop participating in the dance. Now your husband may still make is move forward, but you recognize it as a dance move and say "Sorry dear I am not doing this Dance of Anger anymore" Then he might try again and move back but you say "Nope, sorry...I'm not dancing" and eventually he'd have to either stop dancing also (or dance alone I guess). 

BUT by the same token, his rages really are not your typical disagreements between spouses that "get out of hand." You were ill. He was home with you and knew you were ill. And basically without provocation launching into a raging tirade is more than "a pattern of cyclical anger and competitive fighting." Rage like that on and on is abuse! So here are some ways for you to deal with a raging episode: 


Abuse is never justified so, you should never feel that it is your fault.
Let the abuser know how hurtful their words are and state the fact that it is unacceptable to you. Set boundaries on what you will and will not accept from your abuser. (Do you know how to set boundaries? If not, let's talk about that.)
Seek counseling, separately, and indicate to the counselor that it is raging, not just a couples fight, and that you have set boundaries regarding verbal abuse. 
Surround yourself with a support system of family and friends. Discuss with them what is happening and how you are feeling.
If the verbal abuse escalates to physical abuse, leave. Your personal safety is far more important than the relationship.
Do not engage in conflict with your abuser. If your spouse becomes angry stay calm, walk away and don’t give him/her what they want…a reaction from you.
Take back your power. If you react to the abuser, you are rewarding them. Letting them know they have power over your emotions. Don’t allow the abuser to have control over how you feel.
Leave the marriage. If setting boundaries, getting therapy and refusing to respond to the abuse doesn’t work, then it is time to consider separation. There are times when the best thing you can do for yourself is, break all ties with your abuser. If you make this decision hire an attorney familiar with domestic violence, stay in close contact with your support system and focusing on learning good coping skills.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Affaircare, thanks for your reply.

I'm not ready to claim "abuse" here.

But I am going to invest in a small tape recorder for stuff like this. It may be helpful.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It will do you both a lot of good to listen to the recordings.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

IF you do this... and I'm not certain I'd recommend it...

Please, please, please RESIST the urge to play it for him while tensions are high.

You will certainly "win" the argument.

But, you will "lose" your relationship.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> IF you do this... and I'm not certain I'd recommend it...
> 
> Please, please, please RESIST the urge to play it for him while tensions are high.
> 
> ...


I'd only play it in a counseling session, a calm one.

And after I let him know, and ask him if he minds.

HE'S said to me "You should RECORD these conversations!!!"

so it wouldn't be outrageous if i did.

How could/should a recording be used?

Should I tell him I'm recording when I do? Should I tell him "Know what, i think I WILL get a tape recorder!"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'd only play it in a counseling session, a calm one.
> 
> And after I let him know, and ask him if he minds.
> 
> ...


I would wait until the next counseling session to get him to sign off on the idea that he's curious enough for it to happen.

Then I would wait until the next one to play anything.

In the meantime, when it gets ugly, make yourself scarce.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

C, I hear you.

I don't fear my safety.

The purpose of "making myself scarce when it gets ugly" would be to let him know I'm not ok with outbursts like that.

In "general," I posted about the way I'm feeling about everything in the wake of last night's tantrum.

I see right through his anger straight in to his fear(s).

We have counseling next Thursday. What needs to come up, will come up then.
And it won't be "my needs," a la whiney...we'll see where we are.

In the meantime, I have a huge deadline that requires my prioritizing attention.
I won't initiate or engage in any "relationship talk" before counseling next week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I wonder if a man’s anger is ever based on fear? If the man can cope with whatever it is that’s in front of him then he will not be fearful he’ll just get the job done, one way or another. If he knows what’s in front of him is way too much for him then he’ll probably be cowed and get out of it somehow by talking calmly or running away.

Isn’t anger in a marriage based on frustration? For example, can’t understand, can’t get understood, run out of patience and tolerance = big time frustration. Then if there’s stress there, finances, work/career etc. all the “little problems” get blown up way out of proportion to the point where the man’s behaviour appears, and probably is, angry and totally irrational.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Our counselor says "behind every frustration is a fear. Behind every fear is a hurt."

it goes on beyond that, I can't remember the rest though.

My H is afraid of being helpless in the face of an emotional problem, he feels ill equipped to "solve" it.

All he's seen in his parents' marriage is rancorous fighting and he desperately fears the same thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Behind fear lurks an emotional exile.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Behind fear lurks an emotional exile.


Emotional needs he doesn't realize he has, that were never met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Emotional needs he doesn't realize he has, that were never met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And his outbursts fueled by protectors that want to shield the exile from additional pain.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

AFEH said:


> If the emotional problem is your resentment about your wedding and other things then your husband may well fear that.
> 
> I came to fear my wife’s resentment. She would go back 20 years and more in time. Made the intervening years seam pretty futile at times. It more or less killed my love for her after being together for 40 odd years, I just couldn’t handle it anymore and was literally in fear of what she was going to come out with next. Most of it got screwed up over the years as well to the point where I just couldn’t recognise what on earth she was talking about.
> 
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And his outbursts fueled by protectors that want to shield the exile from additional pain.


Amazingly, when I realize this, I'm more able to "Self-lead," and his words don't hurt me.
But sometimes my own protectors jump in first, trying to set the boundaries.

But I'm guessing that protectors don't set boundaries; here's hoping that my lack of a predictable reaction (defending, lecturing, trying to control him--all of which I've done), will set the boundaries.
---haven't I played this tune already?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

My wife uses the "soda machine" analogy.....

People hit the "button" on a soda machine and get the flavor of soda they like - every single time.

They learn to depend on this.

If the button doesn't work once or twice? They will likely either continue pressing it - or press it HARDER.

They even may kick the machine.

The idea that the button "no longer works" is often the last thing that dawns on them.

This is what patience is about.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> My wife uses the "soda machine" analogy.....
> 
> People hit the "button" on a soda machine and get the flavor of soda they like - every single time.
> 
> ...


Why am I back where I was the first time you shared this analogy with me??
Oh, wait...because Im pushing his freaking buttons too (see: correcting, defending, instructing).
And responding to his kicks on mine, though not as stringently as I once did.
So when he "tests" me and pushes my button by snapping...
Disarm:
Smart-a** retorts have been shown to work.
Or sometimes just repeating his words so he can hear them.

Whatever the response....NOT what I've done thus far (see: correct, react, defend).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I've made noticeable changes---I slip and regress from time to time---but I really think he doesn't know what to do with them.
> 
> He's still spewing the same old rhetoric that isn't as applicable to our dynamic as it once was. It worked and made sense for awhile--when it applied---but gradually, our scene is changing.
> Hopefully he'll just spin those wheels till he sees it's not moving us forward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Credamdóchasgra, if you’re playing to your new script and he’s playing to your old script then that is very frustrating.

The shoe was on the other person in my marriage. I wanted to “grow” and for things to change. But my wife kept playing her unchanged script to my old script and blow me at times I’d return to it, very frustrating. Even at the age of 60 I knew my wife was seriously inhibiting my growth essential for the next stage of my life. One of my reasons for separating

But I must have a lot of growing to do as I’ve left most of my family and old friends behind me! I know whenever I talk with them they talk to who I was, not who I am now.

It’s funny I never thought there’d be inhibitors to personal growth other than how we limit ourselves. I really hope you can get your H on the same page as you. In a marriage though personal growth happens at different times for each partner, synchronising growth can be very difficult.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm trying.
It's not even about which of us will change...
It's kind of about one of us needing to step back and observe wth is going on, and STOP.

He's leery of me, testing me, waiting for me to be:
emotional
critical
needy
nit-picky
moody 
whiney
"looking for an argument"

because once I do ANY of that, he's justified in his mind to react strongly.

Unfortunately, I kind of feel like I need to "mommy" him:
be the grownup, don't match his emotions, show him i'm not the things he's sputtering, let him know I understand...but not engage in the nastiness.
Hopefully my refusal to engage in nastiness will draw a boundary.
But I tell you something, I don't think I'd know wth to do if we weren't in counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

What ages are you and how long together?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Keep in mind that "fixing him so he can fix you" is a loser strategy.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm 30, he's 39.
Been together 2.5 years, married 6 months. Not long.
Conrad, I know...I'm trying to "fix me," which includes better understanding him...which helps me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm 30, he's 39.
> Been together 2.5 years, married 6 months. Not long.
> Conrad, I know...I'm trying to "fix me," which includes better understanding him...which helps me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel like such a nag.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> I feel like such a nag.


Nagging works with me. Wish I could say the same for my husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Maybe this was suggested before.. when all is fine between you why don't the two of you sit down and just chat about communication. Come up with your own rules of conduct while in conflict/fight.

For example something along the lines of:

Rule number 1: eyes on target. We discuss only the current issue at hand, we do not get sidetracked by for example how we feel about this particular word used, etc.

Rule number 2: When tempers fly, have a "safe word" to evoke in order to disengage for 15 minutes and calm your nerves in separate rooms.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

reachingshore, my H is so far from being able to have a conversation like this.
This would be "pushing."
I gotta take Hicks' advice on this when he says don't talk about this stuff for awhile.
Right now, talking about how we talk would be counterproductive.

Yes, I agree with everything you're saying.
I'd love to have that conversation with him.
But it ain't happening right now. 
He's not there, and he won't get there by me *talking* him into being there.

The only place where that conversation will happen is with our counselor present.
And I'll know when it's the right time to initiate it---or the counselor will.

I'm not entirely sure why he's kicking and screaming like a puppy/toddler.
But the more I push him to do what he doesn't want to do---talk about communication---the harder he's going to kick.

I gotta pull back.
That stuff, the talking, that's for counseling.
If we were able to have that peaceable conversation to begin with, we probably wouldn't be in counseling in the first place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

And we have actually come up with those "rules."

we're failing on the execution. Clearly.

We've talked about the "woman if im mad give me a blasted timeout!!" thing...but when I do, he's inconsistent as to whether he actually comes back after the timeout I've agreed to give him.

In short, he ain't playing by the rules we've already set.

And sometimes I ain't either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Gotcha.

Question: your relationship sounds to me like you guys are incapable of having a calm conversation about, say, choice of breakfast. And I mean having that conversation when you are not in a middle of a conflict/mutual resentment. Is that the case? :/


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> Question: your relationship sounds to me like you guys are incapable of having a calm conversation about, say, choice of breakfast. And I mean having that conversation when you are not in a middle of a conflict/mutual resentment. Is that the case? :/


We're capable of that.
But it's been awhile since we've been *not* in the shadow of some recent fight.
If conflict and fighting were a weather condition, let's just say we haven't had enough "mostly sunny days" in a row to really change the climate.
Lots of cloud cover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> reachingshore, my H is so far from being able to have a conversation like this.
> This would be "pushing."
> I gotta take Hicks' advice on this when he says don't talk about this stuff for awhile.
> Right now, talking about how we talk would be counterproductive.
> ...


You may want to start going 2x/week.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> You may want to start going 2x/week.


Omg, I'm not pushing my luck at $140 a pop.
We're single-income on his freelance IT repair gig. I count my blessings every time he shows up for our once a week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm 30, he's 39.
> Been together 2.5 years, married 6 months. Not long.
> Conrad, I know...I'm trying to "fix me," which includes better understanding him...which helps me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don’t know if your problems are new or more intense? Big Four O and all that coming up. It’s a milestone in many men’s lives. A time to look back and see what’s been achieved and a time to look forward and see what’s in store. Being self-employed he wont be worried about ageism in IT. But for many it is a trying and troubling time. If he’s started changing his clothing, yonks ago white socks with a suite used to be in the in thing for some strange reason, more recently it’s been red or yellow trainers! then that’s an indicator.

He may be having a good look at where he’s going and it can in itself be stressful. To do that many men use their “history” as a guide to their future. Mid-life-crisis tends to come between the ages of 45 and 55, but it can be earlier or later. And it can happen a couple of times!

You’re not mentioning children. Is that in the mix, even subconsciously?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He has provider-related stresses, yes.
I wont talk kids until this stuff gets better.
Theoretically we want them.
But if we don't emerge from this cloud cover into a happy sunny place...
I'll need to cut my losses while I'm still young enough to find someone new and be a mom.
Of course I don't want that, please don't judge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> He has provider-related stresses, yes.
> I wont talk kids until this stuff gets better.
> Theoretically we want them.
> But if we don't emerge from this cloud cover into a happy sunny place...
> ...


We've all got our own motivations, needs, wants and desires .

But you didn't need the please don't judge. That's very defensive of you while at the same time throws something at me which doesn't exist. We could have a row about it if you like lol.

I could always shout out something like I AM NOT JUDGING YOU!!!! Just to make a little point.

But I got my remote control back a while ago ....


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> He has provider-related stresses, yes.
> I wont talk kids until this stuff gets better.
> Theoretically we want them.
> But if we don't emerge from this cloud cover into a happy sunny place...
> ...


Being a man I have some empathy, feeling what it's like with women and babies and time of life.

You've quite a mix in that pot of yours and the ingredients are pretty big.

What is the number one problem? Or if you can't get a number 1, what are the top 3?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

No rows, I just wonder if I sound like a fraud working on a marriage I'd be willing to leave if it doesn't get better. Not to mention my shame at that sentiment at 6 months in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I can't speak for everyone, but it sounded to me like you were just speaking your truth. The truth for you is that at 30yo, if this doesn't get better, it would be reasonable to leave. I encourage people leave no stone unturned trying to work on their marriage, but the fact of the matter is that if you work on yourself and actually become a better person and learn how to fight and communicate in a more healthy way, and he refuses to do so...then HE is the one who's abandoned the marriage, not you. You would just be making legal what he has done. 

Yep, I'd say leave no stone unturned and don't cheat. If you're going to end it, do so. Other than that it doesn't sound like fraud to me. Sounds like you made a promise and you're trying to honor your side of it, but in a marriage it takes TWO, not just one.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'd only play it in a counseling session, a calm one.
> 
> And after I let him know, and ask him if he minds.
> 
> ...


Just so you know, I absolutely was NOT suggesting that you record it and then play it "in the heat of battle" some time to prove how you're right and he's wrong. In a weird way, that's the sort of dynamic you had in the past and that we're trying to steer you away from. Nope, my thought was this: if you have a small voice-activated recorder and catch one of these exchanges, and after it's "all over" (say, in a couple days) you go back and listen to it either by yourself or with a counselor, I suspect a couple things could happen:

1) You'd hear yourself a little bit in an "objective third party" way rather than as someone involved in the fight, and you might be able to hear places where "Wow I sound so b*tchy right there!" or "Oh I really could have taken a different course there" (or made a different choice). 

2) Again, in that "objective third party observer" kind of role, you might hear that the blaming, name calling, shaming, screaming, intimidating, dismissing, and manipulating really is NOT cool and is more out of hand than you realize in the moment. BTW, I'm not trying to paint your hubby in a bad light, but rather that a person can not recover from something until they call it what it is. Treating someone like that, even if he IS stressed to the max or you did something to "make him angry", is not acceptable behavior. 

3) Your counselor likewise could hear the dynamic of what you do, what he does, how you interact, what starts or sparks these cycles, etc. The idea is that it may give a clue to the pattern and how it spirals. Also, I have to admit that it sounds to me as if you make a comment that isn't altogether chipper but would warrant a response of "assertiveness level 2" and you get pistol-whipped with "nuclear bomb level 9." 

Finally, I do not know the state that you live in, but just so you know many states do have laws about recording conversations. Most say it's illegal to record a conversation which you're not a party to--but in this case you are one of the folks in the convo. From there, it's about split between states who say if you are party you can record it without his knowledge, and states who say that both parties in the convo have to know it's being recorded. So just to be safe and legal, when/if you decide to record a conversation, just start off by saying, "I just wanted you to know that I took your advice and I am recording this so we can listen and consider how it went later." Then if he doesn't "go off" on you, that either indicates that he CAN control it (and chooses not to) or at least it's done the job of stopping the rage-tantrums.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Thank you, Affaircare. I do appreciate all your feedback and help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

AC, I know it's not cool when he does the yelling, manipulating, blaming, and criticizing.
The idea that this is "abusive" is deeply disturbing to me.
I've got to take it one day at a time.
I'm gradually making changes to better our dynamic; I don't know if he sees it, but he's got to make some changes too.
I'm not sure about the recorder; the counselor did ask us if we'd mind if he records our sessions so we can observe ourselves.

Here's what I don't get: 
our counselor has witnessed him do the blaming, critcizing, yelling.
And he knows my H has done the yelling and cussing.

What is the role of a counselor when they observe that stuff?
Why does it seem that even with professional help, my H can blatantly get away with this?

Any answers anyone??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Just so you know, I absolutely was NOT suggesting that you record it and then play it "in the heat of battle" some time to prove how you're right and he's wrong. In a weird way, that's the sort of dynamic you had in the past and that we're trying to steer you away from. Nope, my thought was this: if you have a small voice-activated recorder and catch one of these exchanges, and after it's "all over" (say, in a couple days) you go back and listen to it either by yourself or with a counselor, I suspect a couple things could happen:
> 
> 1) You'd hear yourself a little bit in an "objective third party" way rather than as someone involved in the fight, and you might be able to hear places where "Wow I sound so b*tchy right there!" or "Oh I really could have taken a different course there" (or made a different choice).
> 
> ...


This is really good stuff.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I may bring up the question of tape recording next time at counseling.

Or, ask the counselor if he still wants to tape our session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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