# Parents with kids do you slap your kids?



## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

Question for mothers, do you slap your toddlers ( between ages 2 -3.5) for being annoying or not listening to you?
do you slap them and then put them in a time out?
do you scream a lot at your kids ?


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Absolutely not! That's abuse is my world.


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

No, no, and....no.

Those are not effective, or healthy, discipline techniques.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Hell no.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Slapping a kid is literally telling them that using physical violence to justify a mean is acceptable. It isn't.


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## bunnybear (Jan 13, 2011)

No and would never.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Its one of the most humiliating things that can happen to a child. I remember being slapped often at four or five, and the memory never goes away. My older brother was a genius, and could spell complex words in the first grade. Read the entire encyclopedia in the second. At five, I had trouble spelling things like Sally and Jane, and my mother slapped me every time. Probably has a lot to do with the reason I later went to a school that had bars on the windows. I later found that I was slightly dyslexic, and went to college on a literary scholarship.


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## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Am I going to have to tell you to keep your children in daycare now? I'm hoping this isn't your wife you're talking about.


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## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

yes my wife I'm talking about


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Tourchwood said:


> Question for mothers, do you slap your toddlers ( between ages 2 -3.5) for being annoying or not listening to you?
> do you slap them and then put them in a time out?
> do you scream a lot at your kids ?


NO!

Amazon.com: Positive Discipline for Preschoolers, Revised Second Edition: For Their Early Years - Raising Children Who Are Responsible, Respectful, and Resourceful (0086874515154): Jane Nelsen Ed.D., Cheryl Erwin, Roslyn Ann Duffy, Jane Nelsen, Rosly

You hit your kids, you reap what you sow. 

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Your wife sounds like she has some serious anger issues.


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## AbsolutelyFree (Jan 28, 2011)

I was spanked as a child. I really can't remember much of it at all, except that the idea of being spanked was a lot worse than the actual event.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> No.
> I have found that hitting/slapping/yelling doesn't work with children, or with dogs (or spouses!) It might work on houseplants, or at least make you feel better.


I slap my tomato plants around. Well, shake them really. My grandpa said it helps fertilize them. They've always done really well! 

But slapping anyone is disrespectful. I can't imagine doing it to a child. It breaks my heart. Home is supposed to be safe.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Hitting and name-calling both mean the same thing to me: you've lost control and can't see that there are other options.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Tourchwood said:


> so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


My system with toddlers was remove, redirect, remove, redirect, remove, redirect, a million times if necessary. It's a lot of work but it's better than spanking or hitting. I never had to even use time outs that much. Time outs were usually used only when I needed time to cool off before deciding what to do.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Tourchwood said:


> so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


There is no one paragraph answer. You become a student of effective parenting. 

Start with the book I linked to.

In your case, recognize that you might also have to insist on anger management therapy or classes for your wife. Your post about her reaction to daycare combined with this one makes me think that education alone will not help if she has massive anger issues.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> My system with toddlers was remove, redirect, remove, redirect, remove, redirect, a million times if necessary. It's a lot of work but it's better than spanking or hitting. I never had to even use time outs that much. Time outs were usually used only when I needed time to cool off before deciding what to do.


Time outs WITH Mom are decent for temper tantrums. Without Mom if the temper tantrum is being done with control and an attempt to control.

Redirect is good. Three is old enough for some consequences. When seated at the table, for instance, the logical consequence of play/throwing food is the removal of the plate and the end of the meal. No the child is NOT going to starve to death from one meal. 

Also recognize what the child is doing. By 3, s/he has probably not yet learned to be deceitful (though if there has been slapping and screaming, learning may have been accelerated), they are exploring their world. There is no need to get excited and act is if they are BAD. Food is for eating. Since you are not eating it, you must be done. 


Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Good book. 

Best of luck.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

F-102 said:


> Hitting and name-calling both mean the same thing to me: you've lost control and can't see that there are other options.


EXACTLY!!!!!

I saw a mother in a store a few months ago who had two young daughters. The oldest daughter hit the youngest and said "you're bad" and kept hitting her. The "solution"? The mother hit the older daughter saying and I kid you not "Stop hitting your sister. That's a bad thing to do". I wanted to walk over to her and smack her saying hitting is wrong and you are a bad mother for doing so. Granted I didn't want to get arrested nor did I think this mouth breather would understand my point.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Anyone who is hitting a small child probably doesn't know squat about parenting. Many such people have a VERY poor understanding of child development. The first and most important tool is to reduce time and opportunity for misbehavior--don't put things they must not touch, where they can touch them! Geez, they are young for such a short time! Make the effort to reduce the chances for misbehavior.

The 2nd rule is along the same line: don't set up the kids for failure/melt downs. Rourtines, good food, plenty of exercise and sleep will reduce meltdowns. If you let your toddler get too tired, slap yourself! It's your fault, really! (ok, just a joke, you don't have to hit yourself). 

And then it is all about redirecting. As magnolia said, remove the object and redirect the child. Time outs are only for when a child is losing control--BEFORE the meltdown.

Slapping only teaches a kid to fear. Fear is a limited and pretty worthless education. Learning to use one's words, to ask permission, etc., comes from a lot of reminding and modeling by parents. And it takes years. 

If your wife refuses to learn, then ya, put the kids in daycare. She's damaging them. Document her abuse if you think you might be heading for divorce. Take the child to the doctor if she leaves a mark, even once. Good luck.


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

Tourchwood said:


> Question for mothers, do you slap your toddlers ( between ages 2 -3.5) for being annoying or not listening to you?
> do you slap them and then put them in a time out?
> do you scream a lot at your kids ?


NO WAY. You don't slap a toddler! If a woman(or man) is running around slapping and screaming at their toddler than they need to take some parenting classes ASAP.

My son is 8 and he got slapped a few months ago when he said something to me that I don't care to repeat here. As awful as what he said to me was, I still feel guilty for slapping him. Never did it before and will never do it again. It's wrong and unnecessary. IF one has to resort to slapping their kid then one must look inside themselves to find out what they've done wrong as a parent to have a child that would push them to that point. Then they need to figure out how to fix it.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm betting the problem is not related to parenting skills as much as how overwhelmed and frustrated your wife feels about being a parent to a toddler. I think your best bet would be to find ways to help her feel less stressed so she can enjoy being a parent & bond with your child.

Toddlers are difficult and I can't say that I'm sad all mine are past that stage, but no, I never resorted to hitting/slapping. I know it's quick and easy and almost a symptom of the parent reaching their boiling point in frustration but the child is looking to that parent for strength and control. It's part of our job to find ways to provide it even at our worst.


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## TemperToo (Apr 23, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I'm betting the problem is not related to parenting skills as much as how overwhelmed and frustrated your wife feels about being a parent to a toddler. I think your best bet would be to find ways to help her feel less stressed so she can enjoy being a parent & bond with your child.


Ditto. 

Not a good thing in the least. BUT are the slaps, SLAPS??? Where the child is reeled halfway across the room and red faced, or little pops to get their attention? 

When mine were little and were out of control, I did little pops to get their attention. I don't think anyone could classify it as a slap. Although fingers did touch face.... But my kids weren't harmed in the least and despite other kinds of true borderline abuse, they are great teenagers.

Not saying that what your wife is doing right, but I can see where it can go both ways. Although from reading your other post about daycare, that leads me to believe that she is just plain overwhelmed and needs some help. Been there.....I had 3 under the age of 5 when I was 20 years old.... (Long story!)


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I'm betting the problem is not related to parenting skills as much as how overwhelmed and frustrated your wife feels about being a parent to a toddler. I think your best bet would be to find ways to help her feel less stressed so she can enjoy being a parent & bond with your child.


I agree 150% that she is clearly stressed. My main concern with this advice is that the OP winds up having the onus of raising his son AND his wife while continuing his set of domestic chores and earning a living while being pressured to do more and more for her.

The real answer to the stress of full time parenting, if this even the correct choice for this mom, is not that someone else take the burden from her, especially since the burden will be added to his other full time burdens, but to help her learn how to deal with the burden herself. 

Raising children in a manner that does not cause you to pull your hair out is a *skill* that most people can learn. The skills required include finding ways to get out of the house, get time off in the form perhaps of a sitting share, set effective limits, avoid barriers to cooperation, ensure that good routines are in place, ensure that the child has access to nutritious food and plenty of exercise as well as opportunity to explore his or her world...

It is no good for Mom, baby or Dad for her to be bailed out and fail to learn these skills.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

I am not a parent, but I was abused a child. I want to share my perspective...

Your wife does not have the patience to parent effectively. Children can be annoying, it is natural and no reason to slap them.

I wish I was only slapped. Unfortunately, I was kicked, bitten and strangled by the woman who gave birth to me. She loved to go on angry tirades where she would call me "ugly" "effing stupid" and "a hore." If I cried, more beatings would follow. I don't talk to her anymore and I am too afraid to be a parent...I think I would be just like your wife, because that is all I know.

I have much sympathy for how hard it is to raise children. I am glad that I worked as a nanny....it showed me that I do not have the strength to deal with banshee babies or defiant kids.
There was one particularly demanding baby girl, who cried so much she had me weeping with her....nothing I did could stop her. I wanted to throw her out the window.

Sometimes time out doesn't work and a well timed swat on the bum is needed*....it should not be used often and it should not be just because the parent is frustrated*. Also, the child should be warned and given a chance to change the behaviour before the smack comes. 

I think that North American parents spoil their children. There is far too much emphasis on being a child's friend and not enough focus on discipline and being responsible. They have no respect for elders and they have a sense of entitlement. Children with immigrant parents behave much better, despite not having a warm relationship with parents who are much too strict. You will rarely see a child with immigrant parents call Child Services, even if they are beaten. North American kids will do this just because they are yelled at. This is just my experience....

This thread might be moved to the parenting section.


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

There is a big difference between a corrective slap and abuse. My parents slapped me when i was young, they also shouted at me . . . . guess what . . . . i turned out fine. 

I dont have children yet so i cannot say what i would do in any given situation. However, i do not agree with vilifying people who slap their kids.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

In this day and age parenting techniques are heavily scrutinized...which is a good thing. But personally I will not appologize for the discipline techniques that I chose for my children. Books and studies are useless. There is no cookie cutter way to discipline a child because they are all different. A slap won't work for some children, just as a timeout or lecture is futile for some. As parents it's up to us to find out what works best for each of our children.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

sinnister said:


> In this day and age parenting techniques are heavily scrutinized...which is a good thing. But personally I will not appologize for the discipline techniques that I chose for my children. Books and studies are useless. There is no cookie cutter way to discipline a child because they are all different.


Books and studies are not cookie cutters. If anything is, hitting is. It is the easy way out. The way that does not cause one to challenge their thinking.

So many things are important enough that we learn various ways to think about them. But for some reason parents get defensive when asked to THINK and analyze the possible results of their techniques. Or even challenged to think about the best GOALS. So many people still think behavior management is the goal of discipline. Why manage their behavior when they can learn to manage it for themselves to their great future benefit. 

Anything worth doing is worth doing thoughtfully. Examining different ideas is always worthwhile. Of course one has to pitch the ones that are judged to be nonsense. But putting ones head in a box and saying nobody's hearing nothing so I can keep smacking my kid is crazy talk/


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

sinnister said:


> In this day and age parenting techniques are heavily scrutinized...which is a good thing. But personally I will not appologize for the discipline techniques that I chose for my children. Books and studies are useless. There is no cookie cutter way to discipline a child because they are all different. A slap won't work for some children, just as a timeout or lecture is futile for some. As parents it's up to us to find out what works best for each of our children.


Furthermore if all "discipline" means to you is what ways to punish your kids, then you are missing a full 95% of what an effective discipline strategy looks like.


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## JeffX (Oct 13, 2010)

Hitting and slapping won't work. For an older kid, I could see spanking, but for that age it's really difficult. You want to as some people have said, redirect and explain. They know what you're talking about especially with the word no.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Some of these parenting topics fill me with fear and dread at what people will be like running the world in the future. Yes, gee it makes sense to smack, because I can see all the valuable lessons that teaches. Like teaching someone not to be arsonists by lighting them on fire.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I will spank my child or slap a hand, but not with any actual physical force never with the intent of leaving a welt or blistering a behind. hand slaps are for like you know reaching for the stove that is on. Spankings it depends rarley given and never out of my anger. I growl a lot at my children it works well. Similar to yelling at them but there is no emotion involved with the loud sound none of that scorn in my voice. Time outs like spanking are rare usualy only used for talking at the table.

As far as physical violene against siblings I learned when I was younger a great way to deal with that with my nieces. If one of them hit the other and came to me I would just ask did you hit her back? No...well go hit her back... after about the third time we had a conversation like that they quit fighting physicaly. Never raised a hand a voice nothing I just let them beat the snot out of each other. As far as effective for them it was the older of the two just graduated a tech school, (I know for some of you thats no biggie but where I come from I am the first in my family to do something straight out of high school and that was join the military so in my family her graduating the tech school straight out of high school top of her class is a huge thing) the other one is going to community college right now has a well paying job for an 18year old and dresses like a member of society instead of a member of the hood.

In short I think whatever way you choose to discipline your child it must not be done with anger because no matter what technique you use if its done with anger the child will use those methods on other people with anger. I am personaly against throw the rod out spoil the child methods but I feel it has led America to the give me generation (no actual research but its interesting the give me's started appearing 18 years after this whole concept came out) I am a spare the rod love the child type. I still have the rod though and will use it if the situation warrants it.

As a side note when my boy hits 16 his balls drop and he gets that rebellious streak in him I know he is going to have (he is to much like me) He is going to put on some gloves and head gear and have a chance to knock his old man on his ass. No I am not going to fight him and try to hurt him but I will give him the oppurtunity to release that anger and rage and be his target.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Some of these parenting topics fill me with fear and dread at what people will be like running the world in the future. Yes, gee it makes sense to smack, because I can see all the valuable lessons that teaches. Like teaching someone not to be arsonists by lighting them on fire.


But Mom6547 if what you're saying was true our current society would be less violent now than they were in previous generations like say...the 40's when a swat on the bum was the norm. In todays society the norm is "timeout" and ritalin. Our society is more violent than it's ever been.


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## BM178 (May 17, 2011)

I've grown up with my little cousins being spanked hard from time to time for not listening. Now, I'm from Europe where that's an acceptable mean of discipline and it worked. My cousins are now growing up quickly and don't even seem like they even remember the "abuse" if you wanna call it, they're all healthy and smart beautiful young adults. But it's obviously always better to find non harmful ways to disciple a child.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

All I know is children of today where spanking is SOOOOOOOOO unexceptable are shooting up schools and have much disrespect for authority.

when I was growing up spanking was the norm and looking back on it today as an adult everyone I got I deserved. It was not abuse and it was the last resort. But effective

I have only spanked my children a few times. and the method is as follows..........

rule # 1 One smack on the bottom for each year they are old.
rule #2 never spank a child when angry.
rule #3 if you say your going to spank them if they don't quit whatever they are doing follow through.
rule#4 make them go to there room and tell them I will be up to spank you in a few minutes.That way the thought of them being spanked is as much as a deterent as the spanking itself. 
rule#5 if spanking is not effective then stop.and pick a different way of correction.


spanking worked well with my first son but my second son did not care. but time outs worked with him.

my first child time out did not work.

as far as it teaching them violance I'm not buying it.if done properly 

I also don't need the government telling me how to raise my children there are plenty of children who were never spanked convictive of violent crimes in jail.

disclaimer: every parent should do what THEY feel is right for their family and I an not advocating that my way is the best way 

there is more than 1 way to skin a cat


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Niceguy13 said:


> I will spank my child or slap a hand, but not with any actual physical force never with the intent of leaving a welt or blistering a behind.


What IS your intent? 


> hand slaps are for like you know reaching for the stove that is on.


Why the hell is any child who is young enough to reach for a stove without knowing the impact of reaching for the stove physically capable, due to lack of protection or supervision, able to reach the stove? And if you are supervising, why not MOVE the hand rather than hit it. And what are you teaching when you hit? Sure not that the stove is hot. They are so busy feeling hurt/guilty/confused to have any focus left for the stove. And your exhortations of "hot" are flying right over their head.

Because.. I can see your intent. It is behavior modification. Most people don't think past behavior modification to the unintended lessons that poor discipline techniques teaches.

Because I was hit and it did not do me any harm? Thank goodness! But I still cannot understand why anyone would hold the parental bar so low when there are techniques that are 

- more effective
- invest in not just future BEHAVIOR with LESS parental effort but also invest in character, integrity and self esteem

It baffles me.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> All I know is children of today where spanking is SOOOOOOOOO unexceptable are shooting up schools and have much disrespect for authority.


Because parents don't bother to learn MORE effective techniques and mostly are too busy/lazy/selfish to thing past to hit or not to hit to something that actually works better and will fight tooth and nail to protect the right to hit their kids rather than THINK.


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

yes the kids who shoot up schools and have disrespect for authority weren't spanked...

Ted Bundy on the other hand WAS spanked as a kid. So were many other murderers out there and they mostly grow up to murder women...like their mothers...the ones who spanked them


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

WhiteRabbit said:


> yes the kids who shoot up schools and have disrespect for authority weren't spanked...
> 
> Ted Bundy on the other hand WAS spanked as a kid. So were many other murderers out there and they mostly grow up to murder women...like their mothers...the ones who spanked them


Ted bundy and all the other serial killers were severly abused!!!! not spanked loveing.

read up on it some before you make gross mis statements.

physically and mentaly abused and neglected.


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> Ted bundy and all the other serial killers were severly abused!!!! not spanked loveing.
> 
> read up on it some before you make gross mis statements.
> 
> physically and mentaly abused and neglected.


Just responding to the other person who made gross mis statement by saying the kids shooting up schools weren't spanked. My POINT was to say there are always going to be bad kids that WERE spanked and bad kids that WERE NOT spanked. 

There are points to be made for both sides but I totally appreciate your suggestion to "read up" on something that I've already read up while in college. Your definition of severely abused might be different from what another parent just considers spanking a rotten kid. Who says where to draw the line at what is abuse and what isn't??? What, the mom who cracks her kid across the face but doesn't leave a mark is better than the one who smacked a kid and left a bruise??


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

WhiteRabbit said:


> There are points to be made for both sides


The thing that burns me up is that people still think of this a matter of SIDES. There is so much more to discipline than how you punish, it makes me sick that we are still even discussing whether one should or should not hit their kids.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Because parents don't bother to learn MORE effective techniques and mostly are too busy/lazy/selfish to thing past to hit or not to hit to something that actually works better and will fight tooth and nail to protect the right to hit their kids rather than THINK.


listen there are expetrs on both side of the camp on this one.

Dobson's dare to disapline is a good example of proper spanking 


lets agree to disagree.you don't have to spank your child I'm not telling you your way is wrong if it works for you great but every child is different some are stronger willed then others.
but for you to say I"M lazy/selfish and ignorant because I choise a different aproach is bull.


people have been using corpral punishment for thousands of years (not abuse).

and ever since we have become political corrrect and spanking has been labled as abuse the violence has sky rocketed 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

not we can't even teach our children to protect themselves from bullies because if they fight back they can get in more trouble than the bully.

the world is an ULGY place and you do no service in hinding it from your children. I prefer to teach my child to stick up for him self even if he gets some black eyes in the procsess.


there are bullies in the work force there are bullies on the roads there are bullies in marriage.better to have your eyes wide open to the ulginess than burried in the sand and wondering what happened.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> listen there are expetrs on both side of the camp on this one.
> 
> Dobson's dare to disapline is a good example of proper spanking


Dobson is an insane man. 




> lets agree to disagree.


I will easily if you will do answer two things for me:

What is your goal of discipline? What do you seek to accomplish?

What does the word discipline mean?


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Tourchwood said:


> so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


It takes a lot of repetition and redirection at that age. It is developmentally appropriate not to get it the first few times.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> The thing that burns me up is that people still think of this a matter of SIDES. There is so much more to discipline than how you punish, it makes me sick that we are still even discussing whether one should or should not hit their kids.


the thing that burns me up is someone with a my way is right and everybody else who don't agree is a close minded person


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

what's REALLY fun is being a parent who doesn't think spanking is an option and having a baby with a man who thinks spanking is just the bee's knees of discipline.

He didn't used to believe in it bc he was smacked around a lot as a kid but now suddenly "it's the only way to get the boy to listen."

*sigh* kids really need to come with instructions and clear cut rules for parents to follow.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

For a child that age (2-3.5), no.

Time out - maybe a swat on the butt if warranted, but slap at - that age - no.

Older - different story. While I very rarely ever spanked my kids, there was one occasion when I slapped my son - it was right after he looked at me and said "I repeated myself twice - are you stupid." He's lucky he got off with a slap.

But a child that age - no.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Dobson is an insane man.
> 
> conversation over ! your right thanks for pointing out my wayward ways.
> 
> ...


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> the thing that burns me up is someone with a my way is right and everybody else who don't agree is a close minded person


I grew up in the era where discipline involved physical and non-physical ways.

I see absolutely no issue with spanking children, when warranted. I was spanked, my mom was spanked, her mom was spanked and we all turned out just fine.

I am not a physical person, have never hit anyone in anger - so spanking didn't teach me to deal with issues through physical violence, and it didn't teach my children that either - my son has decided not to spank his child - good for him. 

I chose to discipline my way and I respect other parents rights to discipline as they see fit (within the letter of the law of course).


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> people have been using corpral punishment for thousands of years (not abuse).


I have never ever ever said it was abuse. Do not lump me with permissive parents. I said that there are better, more effective, aimed at better goals techiques available that instead of modifying behavior help develop self sufficiency, self esteem, character, understanding, problem solving.

Yah you want them not to touch the stove. 




> and ever since we have become political corrrect and spanking has been labled as abuse the violence has sky rocketed


Again, don't mistake me for politically correct. What I am advocating expect more from the children than merely behaving.

What would you say if I told you that I 
- never punish my children
- never have to raise my voice to my children
- have never hit my children

and that my children
- have never gotten in trouble at school
- do about 1/4 of the household chores without complaint (10 and 7) including hauling the oversize garbage barrel to the curb, 2 - 3 large recycle bins, daily cleaning, coking, laundry
- know how to solve problems with peers and children of all ages
- demonstrate genuine empathy to others
- tell the truth when a lie would be easier, undetectable and would get them out of trouble - take their consequences with grace.
- refrain from swearing despite the fact that there is no actual rule against swearing in our house simply because it is the better part of wisdom
- (only one of them) independently fessed up to shoplifting because he realized he had done wrong and needed to make remedy and amends... DESPITE believing that their was a chance that he could go to juivie?
- get up, dressed, fed and teeth brushed every morning without being asked.
- Haven't pitched a whine, but Mom do I have to? in ... forever?

Would you still think I am talking about being a politically correct, permissive, wussy parent? 

Talking about spanking or not spanking is like have an entire foreign policy that is based on bombing or not bombing. Why can we not begin to educate ourselves that there is so much more we can do FOR our children than just decide how we are going to punish them for their perceived misbehavior. (Wouldn't it be interesting to note that the vast majority of perceived misbehavior the kid does not even understand the wrongness of his actions? Can you imagine the sense of injustice that comes from being smacked when you did not even KNOW you were wrong? How do you like being punished when you don't even know you are wrong?)


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I have never ever ever said it was abuse. Do not lump me with permissive parents. I said that there are better, more effective, aimed at better goals techiques available that instead of modifying behavior help develop self sufficiency, self esteem, character, understanding, problem solving.
> 
> Yah you want them not to touch the stove.
> 
> ...


my kid do all the same as yours but I have spanked them on occasion. but only after I exhausted other means of discipline and explaining.

more than one way to skin a cat and every child is different IMO its the parent job to figure out what works best for each individule child.

I am not advocating spanking your child for evey infraction.

But I do realise there sometime is a need to spank a child.


Not every parent has the same skills or ability to learn new parenting skills.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> my kid do all the same as yours but I have spanked them on occasion. but only after I exhausted other means of discipline and explaining.
> 
> more than one way to skin a cat and every child is different IMO its the parent job to figure out what works best for each individule child.


Ok what does discipline mean?

And what is the goal?


> I am not advocating spanking your child for evey infraction.


See, you prove me. You see your children's behavior as infractions. You know nothing more than punishment.



> Not every parent has the same skills or ability to learn new parenting skills.


They do to a much greater degree than most are willing to put forth effort for. And as a result we grow a generation as clueless as the last. Or even more so.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

PS. I have posted it all over this board. Read the book. Really. It is a good book. Or do you not have the ability to learn new parenting skills?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Ok what does discipline mean?
> 
> And what is the goal?
> 
> ...


samantics.

you go girl you can twist anything you want into an argument 

your the smartest woman on the face of the earth I wish all women were as stuck on themselves as you.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

Hitting a child is so damn lazy and ineffective. It shows a lack of respect for the child as a human being and a lack of control on the part of the parent. Would you wife like a slap on the ass if she screws up at work? How about a slap across the face when she's rude to you or doesn't do what you want? We aren't animals and don't need to resort to hitting to deal with our kids like a bunch of apes! In fact, I don't think apes hit their kids, either.

There is a technique called "distract and re-direct" that helps toddlers with better behavior. If your child is acting out often, they could be bored, tired, sick, or have developmental challenges. It could simply be that you and your wife are not giving enough attention to your child and so the child is acting out to get attention. If your child is still developing language skills, they could be acting out in frustration because they cannot yet verbalize their needs. 

Kids' behavior is dictated by their environment, their health, their temperament, and most importantly, the family system (how each parent and other siblings all interact and communicate). 

There are many good books on positive parenting that can help you and your wife be better parents. Picking your battles, having realistic and age-appropriate expectations of your kids, and having some good strategies for dealing with kids at every age and stage will help you.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> samantics.
> 
> you go girl you can twist anything you want into an argument
> 
> your the smartest woman on the face of the earth I wish all women were as stuck on themselves as you.


THAT is what you think motivates me? Winning an argument? Actually what motivates me is children. I want the best for children which is why I spent time in childcare. 

You would rather be right, defend your position, then risk reading a book with about 15 chapters in it?

You know how I know I don't agree with Dobson's views? I have read him. I have read the Focus on the Family website. I have read one of his books. I have listened to his tv shows. I am not afraid to listen to someone to see if they might have something that I can use...

to improve the learning of character and integrity in my children and the children in my care.

And you think I want to win an argument.

Stick your head in the sand if you wish. You may do "good enough" that your children don't fire on a school since that seems to be the highest you seem willing to shoot for.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Laurae1967 said:


> Kids' behavior is dictated by their environment, their health, their temperament, and most importantly, the family system (how each parent and other siblings all interact and communicate).


And their knowledge; modelling, discussing and role playing how to solve problems as they arise, understanding what is really going on in a situation....

That is not to say that they don't have to face the consequences of their actions. They sure do! But life, and misbehavior, offer consequences all their own that don't require hitting.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> And their knowledge; modelling, discussing and role playing how to solve problems as they arise, understanding what is really going on in a situation....
> 
> That is not to say that they don't have to face the consequences of their actions. They sure do! But life, and misbehavior, offer consequences all their own that don't require hitting.


The things you're sharing seem very similar to the Love and Logic series. Have you read it? It changed my parenting stance completely. I was definitely a helicopter mom. Now I believe in letting them learn from natural consequences. 

I've requested the book you mentioned at the local library. I need as many tools as possible with my youngest. LOL


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> The things you're sharing seem very similar to the Love and Logic series. Have you read it? It changed my parenting stance completely. I was definitely a helicopter mom. Now I believe in letting them learn from natural consequences.


Amazon.com: discipline for life. getting it right with children

Is my favorite. But I have read a bunch of limit setting, How to Talk ... a bunch of stuff. I will check out the book you mention.



> I've requested the book you mentioned at the local library. I need as many tools as possible with my youngest. LOL


Aha. You already saw. I also liked 

Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books

It speaks ONLY to limits, not to avoiding barriers to cooperation, character, self esteem...


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

I firmly believe that spanking can be an effective tool for discipline ONLY after all other methods have been exhausted. 

I find it amusing how some "no-spank" parents will apply their own methods to all kids and chastise parents who even dare raise their voice in anger at their child.

My toddler is a well behaved boy but VERY curious. He has an infatuation with cell phone chargers plugged into the wall. I have tried placing them out of reach but if I took my sight off of him for just a minute he would literally get a chair to stand on to reach while looking at me in defiance. 

I tried many methods of redirection but a toddler does not have the Cognitive skills to understand that a power plug could hurt him or even kill him. As a loving father I do not want my son to learn this the hard way. Guess what worked? One day he gets on a chair and starts to go for the charger. I stand up and slapped his hand and said "no, do not touch" in a firm voice. He almost started to cry but after that all I had to do is look at him and he would not do it. 

Not all kids are the same. We have a family friend who is a single mom that does not believe in spanking. The boy is an absolute terror and even my non spanking parent friends want to beat his ass. Go figure.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> the thing that burns me up is someone with a my way is right and everybody else who don't agree is a close minded person


The difference between you and me is that I evaluated, thought and read about your way. That makes me an open minded person. You refuse to think in favor of little cliches and reverse PC sound bites. Cuz I hate to tell you that punative discipline is the new PC.



But neither one of us will change each others' mind. Which is fine. This is the internet.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Children: The Challenge
> 1 2 3 Magic (or something like that)


1 2 3 Magic is a step in the right direction in terms of positive discipline. But it still focuses, if my memory serves, solely on limit setting/ reacting to negative behaviors, often at the expense of taking advantage of a teachable moment.

Disclaimer, I don't remember the crux of 1 2 3 Magic as well as I do the Focus on the Family stuff. So correct me if I am full of malarkey.



> Also contact community services for parenting groups and classes offered by various organizations that do this sort of thing. They often come with child care during the sessions and adult social time. They can offer a lot of techniques and reinforcement of what will benefit the child (and reiterate what won't).


Yah! This is great advice. Often you can also get into classes intended for child care providers if they are not too full. Most states require child care providers to do continuing ed during their career. There is some pretty interesting stuff out there beyond just discipline. Some of education about developmental stages and whatnot can really help a parent anchor their child rearing understanding.




> If an adult has anger issues for whatever reason (even not having to do with the child) then it will be very difficult to parent effectively. The adult issues have to be dealt with in order to parent. You can't give something you don't have. You can fake it and do all the techniques that are taught and promoted, but if you are not feeling it good luck with that. Kids know the real thing and respect it. If you are feeling out of control they will know and you can say or do whatever you like, it's not going to work. If you are not really there with them and your mind is on other things, they know this and pick up on it and it makes them anxious. Anxious kids don't behave. They start doing this and that to test the boundaries to see where they are, as they seem to be constantly moving, close, far away... how would we like it if our worlds behaved like that? Not cool at all!!!!


:iagree:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

sinnister said:


> But Mom6547 if what you're saying was true our current society would be less violent now than they were in previous generations like say...the 40's when a swat on the bum was the norm. In todays society the norm is "timeout" and ritalin. Our society is more violent than it's ever been.


Well I would need to see some hard and fast evidence that our society is more violent than it has ever been to believe it. But that is neither here nor there.

You are not understanding what I am saying if you think that failure to spank yields less violence. Substituting one short sighted, punitive "discipline" technique is not going to do much more than ... substitute one not particularly effective tactic for another still devoid of a decent strategy.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

WhiteRabbit said:


> what's REALLY fun is being a parent who doesn't think spanking is an option and having a baby with a man who thinks spanking is just the bee's knees of discipline.
> 
> He didn't used to believe in it bc he was smacked around a lot as a kid but now suddenly "it's the only way to get the boy to listen."


Yah but he is not listening. He is responding to pain, fear and hurt feelings. THAT is exactly what I want my kids to feel toward me when they are faced with the risk of sexual assault at school, or face the pressure to try drugs and alcohol! I remember being afraid of my mother. She is the last person I went to when I was in trouble. And I got in further trouble. I did LEARN what I was doing wrong until years later.



> *sigh* kids really need to come with instructions and clear cut rules for parents to follow.


Yah but who would write it? Whom do you believe? That is just abdicating our right and responsibility to think for our children. 

The reason I say this is that there is an extreme right wing parenting author whose name currently escapes me. (I am NOT talking Dobson and Focus on the Family here. I think his methods are daft. But they do no worse than any mainstream ineffective stuff.) They talk about the width of plumbing pipe that is appropriate to discipline your INFANT with. 

They talk about hitting your child until the child has achieved full submission. The goal is obedience like a tortured pit bull. The obedience is very attractive looking. And day in and day out, it does not look THAT much difference than any well behaved kid.

They specify how to wrap a small child in a sheet or tarp and bind them there for punishment.

Obviously this is pretty extreme. But in the name of god and church, people follow them. Parents have been known to suffocate their children and beat their children to death at the advice of these so called experts.

Now I am not saying this as an argument against spanking, but against taking authority at face value or at any value except input to your own judgement process.

I think the best way to come to a conclusion is to examine a lot of different view points. Examine their foundation. (For ME foundation in child psychology, social systems, early childhood development are more compelling than foundation in biblical studies for example.) Examine the goals: obedience vs character development. Look at the long term prognosis; investment discipline vs. spending discipline.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I grew up in the era where discipline involved physical and non-physical ways.


That is punishment. Not discipline.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I know chillimorn... if you are really irritated and want to refute me, READ THE BOOK and come back with your refutation. That would be edifying to me. My cup of tea.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I know chillimorn... if you are really irritated and want to refute me, READ THE BOOK and come back with your refutation. That would be edifying to me. My cup of tea.


I'm not irritated with you. I've come to realise you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

you twist my words and only see what you think I'm saying.

I've read up on the subject and disagree with the policy of there is never a good reason to spank a child.

I also indicated all other PUNISHMENT should be exhausted before considerating spanking.

you use words like teaching them and understanding how they think and assume that I don't do that before resulting to a more forcefull form of punishment.


You feel strong in your belief that all violence is bad but I on the other hand take a more practical view that some time violence is a good thing.We live in a violent world and you or anybody else ani't going to change that.


Have a great day


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

"Yah but who would write it? Whom do you believe? That is just abdicating our right and responsibility to think for our children. "

WOW ok it was just an attempt to try to lighten the heated discussion. Not a real request or suggestion that anyone should abdicate their right or responsibility to think for their children.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> I'm not irritated with you. I've come to realise you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
> 
> you twist my words and only see what you think I'm saying.


So clarify for me. You have decided that my motive is not nice. Consider me a know it all. But who holds a view that they don't think is right? So that makes you a know it all as well.

[quot]
I've read up on the subject and disagree with the policy of there is never a good reason to spank a child.
[/quote]
Yet you are unwilling to answer very simple questions like
what is the goal of discipline
and
what does the word discipline mean?

When I challenge you that you are equating discipline with punishment, a simple yes that is what discipline means to me. Then we could agree that we are working of completely different baselines.

Or I could point out to you, presumably a christian since Dobson is the person you quoted, that they did not name the disciples that name based on a word root that means those punished, did they?



> I also indicated all other PUNISHMENT should be exhausted before considerating spanking.


No you didn't. You said all other methods of DISCIPLINE.



> you use words like teaching them and understanding how they think and assume that I don't do that before resulting to a more forcefull form of punishment.


I never said that. You are the one putting words in my mouth. You said that I called spanking abuse. Never ever ever once. I never even said that spanking is particularly BAD. I said I cannot understand why one would have a bar so low as to go for not bad when one could shoot for really, really good. ESPECIALLY when talking about their children.




> You feel strong in your belief that all violence is bad


I challenge you to go back and actually READ what I believe since it seems you are simply attributing any and all anti spanking beliefs to me. Which is far from the case. 

I personally would rather see a measure application of spanking (though I STILL think it falls way short of the mark) than much of what I see as permissive parenting. You and I agree there. But why stop and failing to be permissive when you can do so much BETTER than that?





> but I on the other hand take a more practical view that some time violence is a good thing.We live in a violent world and you or anybody else ani't going to change that.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great day


Alright well when you want to go actually have a conversation about what I said, feel free to say so.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

WhiteRabbit said:


> "Yah but who would write it? Whom do you believe? That is just abdicating our right and responsibility to think for our children. "
> 
> WOW ok it was just an attempt to try to lighten the heated discussion. Not a real request or suggestion that anyone should abdicate their right or responsibility to think for their children.


Yah I know. I was not attributing any such motive to you. But both of us have likely heard that exact same sentiment from plenty of people who MEAN it. Thus following the advice of those nut bags.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, I remember my husband telling me when he was a teen, his mother would slap him across his mouth for back talking etc. He hardly ever back talked, but there might have been a time or two where that happened. 

Even my dad did it to me once as well. One thing I can't stand is a know it all teen who is back talker. I was one and so was my husband when he was a teen. Thats probably why it irritates me now. However, my teenage son who has on an occassion said something in a smart way, had me riled up. I stopped and remembered how it made me feel to get popped in the mouth, and its something I wouldn't want to do or for my son to feel. So different measures are taken with that. Once again its rare it happens he spouts off at the mouth but sometimes. 

I remember too, my MIL telling me my husbands sister was bad about bad mouthing, and her aunt said if it were her child back talking she would knock her teeth down her throat! I'm glad my MIL didn't do that, because she would have even more issues than she has already had in her life. Instead of their dysfunctional family being dysfunctional to the 5th power, it would have made it more to the 10th power.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Maybe like many out there, I've seen the worst of many types of discipline. My parents were pretty abusive. My sister in law, however, prided herself on being more intelligent than people who spanked. Still, because she wasn't consistent, her children would drive her into a rage where she would start lashing out with her hands.

My wife and I spent a few years studying topics and wanted to be in agreement before having children. Down to the nth degree, we wrote a charter for our approach. Maybe its part of the reason I was a 6 Sigma Master Black Belt in my company for a while. We were far from perfect, but our grown kids are incredible, caring people. For us, the key was consistency on our part, coupled with clearly communicated guidelines and expectations. And lots of fun. They knew what the consequences were for misbehavior, and they new the 2nd tier consequences of misbehavior plus lying or hiding it. That said, we wanted them to grow into their own unique personalities. 

For example, one rule was that temper tantrums never accomplish anthing. Sorry, but even if they solved world hunger in the morning, a temper tantrum in the ice cream shop meant that you went home without ice cream. If they did something wrong, but were honest and upfront, they knew the consequences for the action, but were praised for the integrity.

Whenever they misbehaved, my wife and I would ask what the goal was for the outcome. Sometimes, its little more than a lessons learned that you'll make mistakes, so get up and dust the sand off your backside.

We never said spanking was off the table, but never once had to spank them. It was impractical, even with the extremely headstrong daughter, who is now a grad student in psychology.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Tourchwood said:


> Question for mothers, do you slap your toddlers ( between ages 2 -3.5) for being annoying or not listening to you?
> do you slap them and then put them in a time out?
> do you scream a lot at your kids ?


I would never slap on the FACE , it is very very demeaning at any age, young children would never understand this, and It should make a parent feel bad to even entertain doing such a thing. BUT I have spanked through the younger years and will not apologize for it. I have 6 mentally healthy appearing to be well adjusted respectable children. The smallest is still quite the handful at 4 though. 

I was amazed his pre-school teacher opened up to me the other week & admitted she spanked her son as a toddler & she is not against this in the home (only). I find her a good strict teacher & we are on the same page in discipline. 

I did a post that was going against the grain in replies on this thread -3rd reply down. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family-parenting-forums/24342-spanking-okay-2.html Some find all spanking abuse, I will never agree with this. 

BUT on the face, NO -never, or kicking or anything other than the buttocks or a slap on the hands to grab thier attention.

Love your Post Sanity, this I can agree with.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> So clarify for me. You have decided that my motive is not nice. Consider me a know it all. But who holds a view that they don't think is right? So that makes you a know it all as well.
> 
> 
> never said your motives were not nice.
> ...


Yet you are unwilling to answer very simple questions like
what is the goal of discipline
and
what does the word discipline mean?

? your goal of dicapline my differ than mine.who cares you come off with an I know better than you attitude.





When I challenge you that you are equating discipline with punishment, a simple yes that is what discipline means to me. Then we could agree that we are working of completely different baselines.


I think punishment and discipline are intertwined to some degree.



Or I could point out to you, presumably a christian since Dobson is the person you quoted, that they did not name the disciples that name based on a word root that means those punished, did they?


No you didn't. You said all other methods of DISCIPLINE.


I never said that. You are the one putting words in my mouth. You said that I called spanking abuse. Never ever ever once. I never even said that spanking is particularly BAD. I said I cannot understand why one would have a bar so low as to go for not bad when one could shoot for really, really good. ESPECIALLY when talking about their children.

you infered spanking was bad by you attitude twords it and the sarcastics jabs at the end of alot of your statements

I challenge you to go back and actually READ what I believe since it seems you are simply attributing any and all anti spanking beliefs to me. Which is far from the case. 

I personally would rather see a measure application of spanking (though I STILL think it falls way short of the mark) than much of what I see as permissive parenting. You and I agree there. But why stop and failing to be permissive when you can do so much BETTER than that?

child spacific some will need spanking some won't



Alright well when you want to go actually have a conversation about what I said, feel free to say so.[/QUOTE]

right back at ya.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> ? your goal of dicapline my differ than mine.who cares you come off with an I know better than you attitude.


Apparently *I* care, since I asked. How am I any more know it all than you. 

I think I have touched a defensive nerve. Good day to you.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Sometimes children outgrow their environment more quickly than mom or dad would want them to.


This is sooooo true. You find some little measure of peace in the habits you have established and BAM the kids throw a whole new set of issues at you.



> In that case, they need to explore options for the child to explore safely and to be challenged. I have seen two year olds excel in soccer or downhill skiing, or learn how to cook or to use a computer or a second (or third) language. :-o I think most adults vastly underestimate a child's comprehension and probably also vastly overestimate a child's ability to resist impulses to explore experientially (in spite of negative consequences such as slapping).


You got that right. I think that a few of the unforeseen consequences of managing behavior through punitive means are these
- squelching of the natural curiosity to learn through safe exploration
- disassociation between the unsafe exploration and the REAL consequences of said exploration.

We were hanging out in the kitchen one time. My daughter (7yo) was chopping potatoes. She was using the real honest to goodness chef knife. (I know I would not want to have to chop potatoes with a stupid dull knife!) A friend of mine literally FREAKED OUT that I was letting my 7yo use a chef knife. There was no reason not to. She has very good knife skills. AND she had already learned the hard way what a knife can do by giving herself a small cut. I was right there as she learned to use the knife properly so she would get nothing more than a minor cut. But the consequences of failure to use a knife properly were right there. There was no need to punish her for using a knife that she was "not allowed" to use.

This way she learns to make judgements about the world around her rather than Mom says don't use a knife cuz they are dangerous. If you are too young to learn the lesson, then you should not even be put in a situation to need the slap. That teaches nothing about knives and danger except Mom sometimes hits me and that somehow means danger. :scratchhead:



> A kid is always going to be a challenge and to want to do things whether or not they are going to be slapped or punished.


And if you look at their challenging nature and their desire to do as automatic misbehavior, then you are missing some of the wondrous joy of being around children! Our job is to scaffold that exploration so that they do it safely, or safely enough that they learn necessary lessons without permanent 



> Once one problem behavior is solved via slapping another one will creep up. If one doesn't learn a different way of relating then the ante will need to be upped and upped. And you will be spending a lot of energy putting out fires instead of parenting in a much more rewarding way.


Amen to THAT. There are problems as well with reward that my fav author goes into as well. It comes right down to what you want your children to learn? Do you want them to learn to behave based on a reward punishment system (aka will I get caught/whats' in it for me) or do you want them to learn how the world works. 




> Plus your kid will be jumpy and not trust adults or other people who are irritated at them in any way. They will always in the back of their mind be thinking that perhaps this person might hit them too.


To be fair, one can institute a punishment reward system, and accidentally imbue it with a lot of tlc. Hitting itself is not the doom of the world. Parenting has to be a forgiving field since it is so hard. But it is one negative element of parenting. And we know of interpersonal relationships, for each negative, it takes 5 positives to counter it. So to counter one hit, you need five other things to build trust to counter. I would rather not make that withdrawal from the trust bank.





> Or a person might hit them or raise their voice at them and not have the authority to do so and they might think this is normal.
> 
> I like "Children, the Challenge" by Rudoplh Dreikurs. It is not a canned method, but is realistic. Children cannot learn if they are overprotected from reality, they also cannot learn unless they are allowed to experience the natural consequences of their behavior. Mom or Dad won't always be there to slap their hand. So you are teaching them, look around to make sure Mom or Dad aren't watching before I do this or that.


That sounds a LOT like the book I have mentioned. It is not so much a set of tactics or methods as a road map of why and what are some decent things to attempt to achieve. And what are the pitfalls of some of our traditional outlooks.



> And if they get lucky and don't have natural consequences, it is reinforced that being sneaky works very well. But what if Mom says, oh, don't touch that, it is dangerous. Even Mommy doesn't touch that. Owie. Then if the 2 year old touches the socket and gets a jolt he or she will know, Mommy tells the truth. Mommy tried to tell me how not to get hurt and I didn't listen to her advice and I got hurt. Mommy wasn't trying to trick me, and now I know, I can trust her. So that is a different lesson than saying, listen to me and if you don't then I am going to make sure you get hurt.


Yup. Exactly. Allow the connection between the action and the consequence. Maintain your parental integrity and the trust of your child.

And that trust is an INVESTMENT in your future discipline efforts. I can trust my parents to tell me the truth. 



> I think parenting is difficult. The path of least resistance seems sometimes to slap.


In the moment. M. Swift refers to this as spending discipline. Yah you got the behavior you wanted Right Now. But at what cost? What are you going to have to do NEXT time to achieve behavior? Hit them harder? Sneak into their room to see what they are doing in order to find what they are trying to get away with...



> Practical methods, find a professional child minder who knows how to manage children. Have them come to your home and you will probably see your child in a different light after the initial 'breaking in' period of testing limits, etc. I used to babysit all kinds of kids. All a kid wants is to be recognized, respected, accepted, and taken care of in a stable and predictable, safe manner.


Many people see this as somehow separate from discipline. But discipline is a word that means teaching, after all. Children's actions stem from what they know and what they don't know. And what they don't know they need to be taught. It is amazing how many punishments you can avoid by avoiding the barriers to cooperation that we unknowingly throw at our kids.

I was guilty of this. When I first started my little self study, I was SHOCKED to hear what the words coming out of my mouth sounded like to another human being. I would never speak to another adult like that! They would never take it! What right did I have to speak to my children that way! And no wonder they were misbehaving. 

That is not to say I won't use strong language. You do not have the right to take that toy away from him. Look at his face? How does he feel? Yah that allows the perp to understand the consequences of his actions. 

But demands, commands, belittling... many of the things we were raised with that we do without thinking naturally put the kids' backs up!



> They want to know that they have a name, and that they matter to you. I think slapping, hitting, yelling is all counterproductive to communicating that to them. It doesn't meet any need that they might have, that I can see. It meets a parent's short-term need. And that is sad.


Ayuh. But it is not just the hitting. A parent can do all that with a look or a word and never touch their child.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> The new plugs actually have built in safety sliders in them that even an adult would have to work hard at to get electrocuted, and household current will rarely cause an injury anyway if it's properly wired... I think a parent's slap would hurt more than the jolt. In any case as a kid we put our fingers in sockets after licking them, this was 1950 sockets! We also played that game where you hold onto the electric fence at farms and each others' hands and see who lets go first.
> 
> .


Keep in mind that in America, most people live in homes that are older than ten years or so. Older homes are just grandfathered in with many code districts. Only new construction or alterations require updates in certain areas.

What I'm saying is that if a kid completes a circuit on a 15 amp outlet with wet fingers while they plug in an appliance, they get the 15 amps before it blows the circuit breaker. That split second will change their religion. We used outlet covers until the kids were old enough to trust. I'm also obsessive enough that I put GFCI outlets on the lead outlet of every branch, which detects mild fluctuations in current. New codes in most areas only require these GFCI outlets near high moisture areas.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Halien said:


> Keep in mind that in America, most people live in homes that are older than ten years or so. Older homes are just grandfathered in with many code districts. Only new construction or alterations require updates in certain areas.
> 
> What I'm saying is that if a kid completes a circuit on a 15 amp outlet with wet fingers while they plug in an appliance, they get the 15 amps before it blows the circuit breaker. That split second will change their religion. We used outlet covers until the kids were old enough to trust. I'm also obsessive enough that I put GFCI outlets on the lead outlet of every branch, which detects mild fluctuations in current. New codes in most areas only require these GFCI outlets near high moisture areas.


The outlet thing represents an example of a greater notion that one does not need to OVER protect children from learning natural consequences. Of course, we have to protect them from the big stuff like electrical hazards, giant sump pump holes without covers (ask me how I know about that one)...


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

I was slapped as a child & vowed (s soon as I was old enough to understand)that I would *never* hit someone I loved. 

I do discipline my boys, but my rule is I don't do anything to them I wouldn't do to my husband. Hitting of any kind is unacceptable in out family. Slapping is sooo disrespectful & any of you who do it need to understand that your kids will remember it when they are adults.

I have screamed at my boys a few times when I have been extremely frustrated but I made sure I apologized to them & we talked it over. As a result, my boys are pretty darn polite for 4 & 2 1/2 years old & don't fight physically with each other very often. 

They've never hit anyone at daycare or the park & the teacher has complimented me on the 4 year old's manners & level-headedness. My oldest one is even paired up with the "troublemakers" on field trips because he helps keep them in line. 

Now, obviously I don't take all the credit for their good behavior, they do have their own minds, afterall. But, for people of their age, I think how my husband & I have raised them definately comes through in how they relate to the world.

I know I got a little off the topic, but I strongly believe children should be treated with the same respect as anyone else in our family. Slapping is simply the opposite of respect.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

You think all I see is punishment but I don't. Again I do not discipline my children anytime out of anger whether verbal or so forth. I detest redirect because it is not addressing whatever they did wrong. I believe in responsibility and consequences. If you made a wrong choice "do your time' and its over with. I don't hold nothing against him. I can tell you stuff my children have done wrong but not the last time they did something wrong because once its over its over. I can also say they very rarely make the same mistakes.

You treat the people on here that spank their children on rare occasions like that is all they believe in. Yes my boy has got his but swatted so has my daughter. Their is no specific infraction it usualy happens when they are acting up soley for attention at which point they will get a swat and then they will get tossed in a corner and ignored when they come out I talk with them and end everything on a positive note usualy giving them some attention on top of it.

A slap across the mouth a punch any of that is dead out wrong though. The reason why chill said you are right most intelligent person etc and so forth is you come off as denouncing any one who doesn't parent your way Mom yet you are the one speaking of everyone being divided in two camps. I could care less how you raise your children they are your children just as my children are mine. I can assure you when you see my son he will call you Ma'am and open a door for you by his own choice because he is taught at home to respect people, and he is taught if he doesn't respect people he doesn't get respect himself.

I would go on but there doesn't seem much point you do seem rather convinced the rest of us are "bad" or "inefficent" parents and your way is the only right way. Whereas I think my way is right for me and mine and your way is right for you and yours.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Niceguy13 said:


> You think all I see is punishment but I don't. Again I do not discipline my children anytime out of anger whether verbal or so forth. I detest redirect because it is not addressing whatever they did wrong.


Redirection looses all its value past toddler stage. 



> I believe in responsibility and consequences.


Me too! Enthusiastically. VERY enthusiastically!

BUT life offers so many good, educational natural consequences, the best lessons are learned.





> If you made a wrong choice "do your time' and its over with. I don't hold nothing against him. I can tell you stuff my children have done wrong but not the last time they did something wrong because once its over its over. I can also say they very rarely make the same mistakes.
> 
> You treat the people on here that spank their children on rare occasions like that is all they believe in.


Who? Me? Since I am the most vocal? No I don't. There are definitely people who don't know anything more. I can sum up what I think this way

- spanking is generally indicative of not having given great thought to the unforseen lessons that are being taught by the hitting. (The use of the word spank to obfuscate the fact that one is actually hitting their children is always of interest to me. The very same people who would say hitting is wrong "spank" their children. Oft times for... hitting!)

- spanking is often indicative of a punitive, Pavlovian style reward punishment system which is fundamentally inferior to better philosophies that are available. It is generally indicative of behavior control and management more than long term life lessons. 





> Yes my boy has got his but swatted so has my daughter. Their is no specific infraction it usualy happens when they are acting up soley for attention at which point they will get a swat and then they will get tossed in a corner and ignored when they come out I talk with them and end everything on a positive note usualy giving them some attention on top of it.
> 
> A slap across the mouth a punch any of that is dead out wrong though. The reason why chill said you are right most intelligent person etc and so forth is you come off as denouncing any one who doesn't parent your way Mom yet you are the one speaking of everyone being divided in two camps.


I am! Geez. I don't see how my having an opinion is any different than your having an opinion. I would like it if when you criticize my opinion, you do so from actually understanding it! But this is the internet. I don't always get what I want. 




> ...
> I would go on but there doesn't seem much point you do seem rather convinced the rest of us are "bad" or "inefficent" parents and your way is the only right way. Whereas I think my way is right for me and mine and your way is right for you and yours.


I will continue to think that your way is INEFFECTIVE by comparison. You may feel pissed about that if you wish. It is your choice.


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## PrivateTalk (May 27, 2011)

sinnister said:


> But Mom6547 if what you're saying was true our current society would be less violent now than they were in previous generations like say...the 40's when a swat on the bum was the norm. In todays society the norm is "timeout" and ritalin. Our society is more violent than it's ever been.


I agree with you, I don't think that slapping a 2 year old will do anything productive find other methods but when the child is older sometimes a spank is the best thing. I know that kids today are way to scary and there was a time you saw a 15-17 year old walking down the street and thought nothing of it now, its like okay is this one mentally stable or are they going to stab me for not giving them change....


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## PrivateTalk (May 27, 2011)

PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK ME FOR MY THOUGHTS  Thanks, just thought I should put out the disclaimer first 

For starters my father was abused as a child as in he was hit with objects when he was disciplined... i.e. a broom was broken over his back when he was younger. He and my mother talked when they got married about how to discipline their children, my dad was scared that he would be abusive and tried very hard not to be.

Okay, so when I was a child I did get spanked but it was not often and was usually reserved for major infractions. That said my dad would at times also lose his temper and go beyond the acceptable spank, my mother would intervene and then my dad would cool down and come talk to us that he was sorry, I have rarely seen my dad cry but sometimes when he lost it he would. By the way he lost it only about a handful of times. So I grew up me and my sister are very capable young adults and we both have children, I never thought much about my childhood in a negative way as my dad did not hit us often it was a more rare occurrence and he was just as heartbroken about it, as it was always his fear and he never wanted to be a parent that abused his child since he went through it.

Now with that all said, when I first started to spank my kid I realized that I could and should not do spankings anymore as my up bring, although it did not happen often, had apparently left its own mark. I realized that I was quicker to anger and want to hit than I was to calm down and look for other solutions. 

I spoke with my husband that I feared I had hit my daughter out of anger far harder than I ever should have, I cried for about an hour before going to talk with her, my husband and I talk it over and I then looked for other ways to discipline that did not involve me putting my hands on my kids as I realized that I could not trust myself to discipline physically. I now use many techniques to discipline... i.e. timeouts, chores, removal of games, grounding...

I have also learned how to send them to their rooms for a cool down period, the kids I'm sure think this is just for them but it’s not, it's for me to get a handle on my anger calm down then be able to "talk" to them without shouting or hitting. It has worked but before the first times I ever spanked my child I had no idea just how affected I was by the small amounts of times my dad had lost his temper with me. To realize in my adult life just how affected I was by it in the way my anger and temper get towards a child was astonishing and frightening. 

So to make a long story end... slapping or hitting or excessive spanking of children should not be done it opens things in your child that you never could imagine and could make them more abusive to their child in return, I work very hard on understanding where my anger came from and found alternative means to discipline that does not have me in tears and my child afraid of me. With that said I'm sure you'll be shocked that I still agree with a light spank for the more major things as my sister had spanked her children, it's not her first action but she has done it. I dont trust myself to do that so I don't spank mine but I don't think that a proper spank is harmful...... Hope this helps


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

PrivateTalk I don't remember seeing you around a ton though I admit my participation is flaky at best. When I read that you had hit your child in anger, my first thought was OY she could have so much more peach and tranquility in her family! How about never getting to anger. If you are interested in some cool resources, give me a shout. I know of a parenting educator who has a program that I would love, but it is righteously pricey. But I know of a couple of books. (If you HAVE been around, you have seen me link to them a thousand times already.) 

Parenting is hard. No doubt.

Oh and a proper spank not harmful... you're wrong.

Duck and cover.


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## Uglee70 (Jan 2, 2009)

Anyone who hits children should go and live with the other primates.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Zombie thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Tourchwood said:


> so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


oh god . no .

at that age they are so loveable and cute . 

they wont be able to comply after one , two times , of course . even adults don't comply after one , two times of telling off !!!!

so if I tell your wife she cant slap a toddler once , she will comply ???

the toddler will need to be told lovingly many times and you still need to expect them to forget or to push boundaries . they are learning .

read up .

books by james Dobson is good . 

my favourite - boundaries with kids .

by age 6 , they form 80 % of their adult brain , please do not damage them . the other 20% comes from life experiences .

maybe your wife is stressed n unsupported , maybe anger management issues . the problem may not be the child .

but of course sometimes the child may be having medical issues and cant comply or learn then you need to get the child examined by a doctor .

never slap or hit a toddler anymore , pleaseeeeeeeee


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

when my kids are older , sometimes they do need a spanking , but more often there is talk first then they accepted the spanking . n there are standard rules , like the brothers hit each other , n both get spanking , twice each .

as they get older , I reduce spanking and deprive privileges tv x box and it works wonders.


all ideas obtained from books .

tough part is consistency n carrying out the punishments with control.

as a mum , there are days where I went over a little . n I apologise and ask for forgiveness . my boys know that I m upset when I went over board and I cried n go sleepless . I guess they know I did my best .


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Tourchwood said:


> so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


if I recall correctly , as my kids are older now , I read and time out may not apply to 2-4 years old . they cant figure out what the hell is time out got to do with whatever he did wrong . they don't know therefore what they did was wrong n why you are angry with them .


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Tourchwood said:


> so how do you communicate with you toddler, if you told her no dont do that first time and second time and still does it. even time out didnt work


You have to redirect her. Toddlers have a pretty short attention span so you can get her interested in something else. Even if she is kind of stubborn you can keep redirecting until she gets interested in something else. Toddlers are supposed to explore and they are testing their world. Read Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson. They've done studies on spanking also and found that it can even be detrimental to children in even brain development. 

Spanking the gray matter out of our kids - CNN.com 

Really a toddler is not going to totally understand why a parent is hitting him or her - they will just learn to be afraid of the parent. That's not very good for any future relationship you might have with your child. Here is a website for Positive Discipline also.

The Official Positive Discipline Website by Founder Dr. Jane Nelsen - Solutions for Parents and Teachers


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Mom6547 said:


> NO!
> 
> Amazon.com: Positive Discipline for Preschoolers, Revised Second Edition: For Their Early Years - Raising Children Who Are Responsible, Respectful, and Resourceful (0086874515154): Jane Nelsen Ed.D., Cheryl Erwin, Roslyn Ann Duffy, Jane Nelsen, Rosly
> 
> ...



Yes, Mom6547!


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't like "redirect" as much as some here -- I think it's an easy way out for parents, an avoidance of doing anything difficult. Your job is to teach them how to function in the world (to the extent that is appropriate or possible for their age and development). I don't think redirect actually teaches anything, it just momentarily defuses the situation. 

Slapping, however, I just don't even think it works on a toddler, although I have certainly WANTED to at times. If you do it lightly, they don't even understand that it's a punishment, and if you do it hard, I think they don't really get what's going on, just "Daddy/Mommy hurt me," and I don't think that's the best thing to do to them. Maybe when they're older it can be ok, although I don't plan to hit my kids.

I do use timeouts sometimes though -- they not only help teach my toddler what not to do, but it often gives her a chance to cool off from a tantrum. I'm really not sure I understand what the modern kick against timeouts is, to be honest. After the timeout, I always ask "do you understand why you got a timeout?" and she can usually tell me. And then I always make it clear that I still love her after. 

Lately I've also found that simpler consequences work well -- "if you throw your food again, I'm taking it away" or "if you kick again I'm turning off the music" sort of stuff.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Time outs are often misused.


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## Rooster2014 (Aug 23, 2014)

Coming from a abusive childhood I can tell you that each slap doesn't get forgotten. I swore early on id never hit or spank a child. I raised a girl and only spoke to her and used time out. First, how can you bring a child in the world and hit that child causing harm? That's not showing love. How does that child see you afterwords? Don't lose your cool. Try talking to the child.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

I don't get the big deal. 

I was spanked as a kid. 
And slapped. 

And when I was older, I got into fights with my old man! The only difference was that at that age, I could fight back and do some damage. 

Spanking and whatever else worked to successfully produce a productive and responsible generation of kids for thousands of years. 

Suddenly, we stop doing that because we think it is abusive, and scars the child. 
And now, what's the word about the current generation? 
We're lazy. We want everything for no work. We behave poorly. 

Who's fault is that?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*From someone who got his butt summarily busted as a kid by his Dad with a belt, to my mom, who nettled my backside as a young child with switches and flyswatters, to football coaches, who nettled our asses with a shaved-off baseball bat, mostly for being a smartass, I've seen it all!

With my two boys, I only gave them a big hand on their backsides when they were in their "terrible twos," but no more than a couple of swats to their butts. But I never ever slapped them! Deprivation of priviliges always worked far better!*


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## Fitnessfan (Nov 18, 2014)

Slapping your child accomplishes nothing except teaching them violence and not to trust the one person they need to trust the most. You're not going to be able to control everything your toddler does...you're #1 priority is to make sure they are safe and loved and treat others nicely. Some toddlers are are very strong willed and spirited. Although this can be difficult now as a parent, it will serve them well later in life. Don't break their spirit. 

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids...o+kids+will+talk+and+talk+so+kids+will+listen


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## FloridaMan (Feb 22, 2015)

Never !!!!!!!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I was spanked as a child,I was slapped as a child. I knew I deserved it when I got spanked and slapped. Never once did I not know I had it coming. So in my mind the whole your only teaching them violence and to be scared of you is nonsense. I think today's physico bull crap, where everyone gets a trophy and nobody can get there feelings hurt is a huge problem .we a raising a whole generation of entitled crybabies who will sue there parents if they refuse to pay for their college. Because they won't follow house rules. 

Spanking worked well for some situations! I just asked my 16 yr old if I spank3d him to much or if it ever hurt his feelings. And he laughed and said no I just took it out on the dog and my younger brother! Lol and then he said na I deserved it and if you only new you would have spanked me way more! Lol 

I remember when I was about 15 or. 16 I got in an argument with my mother and I told her to rock off or something like that my dad overheard and grabbed me and said did you just say .............and before I got it out of my mouth he punched me in the mouth with a closed fist and said anytime you say that to your mother I will punch you again you can pack your bags and leave but you can never talk to either one of us that way ........got it? Good! Best thing he ever did!


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

Never never ever. I'm completely against using fear and pain as a deterrent. 

I did a whole big investigative report on this in college. The evidence proves that overall it is not beneficial in any way, shape or form; there are even higher instances of mental illness, the kid is more likely to commit crime, etc. (of course I am speaking generally, I don't need people to jump on me and say "well I spanked my kids and they turned out just fine!"). There are better ways to discipline your kids, folks.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Tourchwood said:


> Question for mothers, do you slap your toddlers ( between ages 2 -3.5) for being annoying or not listening to you?
> do you slap them and then put them in a time out?
> do you scream a lot at your kids ?


My W never slapped our daughters. 
Put in time out. Yes. But never slapped. 
Scream at a lot. No.


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