# When do you stop the 180 and consider R?



## zillard

My story is here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/60683-what-do-i-dont-know.html

The most difficult part for me through this is the fact that my stbxw completely changed when her affair started. The 10 years previous were beautiful. She was a kind, loving spouse and attentive, caring mother. She breastfed for 2.5 years, cloth diapered, couldn't bear to be without her daughter for more than a few hours. Was a SAHM until this last year and was excellent at it. 

Our marriage was much too child-centric, which helped lead to this situation though. As well as me not being as attentive as I should have been. She has trust issues due to childhood and will not trust babysitters, so that severely hampered our romantic life - few dates, etc. That led us both to feel less and less loved.

Since the affair she has been completely uninterested in me and D6. Little to no empathy.

But now that I've exposed affair and papers have been filed I see that woman returning. She is coming home every night - on time. She's making a huge effort to be involved with DD again and her attitude toward me has completely reversed. Much crying and apologizing. She's moving out next weekend but wants to stay here in the house on Xmas eve to be here when D6 wakes up. She wants to cook me Xmas dinner. But she is still unwilling to prove to me that I can trust her again. Won't change shifts to be around us more. Won't prove to me that she's cutoff contact with OM. Won't share FB password even though I've told her I hacked it and have seen everything. 

Such a shame as I cannot forgive and consider R without at least those things happening. 

I think she believes that at this point she can never regain my trust, so why put forth the effort. Why not just give up, even though I know OM has been pulling away from her and is less interested since I found out. They still FB message occasionally and see each other at work, but he has been refusing to go hang out with the work group when she is around.

It's obvious that even though she hasn't moved out yet she is already missing me and D6. She was up all night crying last night because she desperately wants to go to my ("her") niece's bday party today but "can't help but feel like the bad guy. There is no room for a bad guy at a family celebration."

Last night I told her that after D they will no longer be her niece and nephew. Everything will change. Our family photo at grandma's house will be replaced with one of just me and D6. 

This had a profound effect on her. I think the fog has lifted but now she feels so much guilt and shame that her self esteem has tanked so low that she sees no hope, even though her actions recently show me that is already regretting her decision to leave.

She has said things in conversation like "what!? Do you want me to beg?". My response to that was a matter-of-fact "You begged OM to come back."

So do I only stop the 180 when I get the response I need and she does those things? Or is it ok to break it momentarily to reassure her that it is possible to R (with A LOT of hard work) and remind her of the things I would require? Does she even deserve for me to reach out and give her any hope?

I'm working very hard to focus on me and D6 and move on. My IC told me thursday how impressed he was with my progress. But then something like the bday today and her emotions regarding it set me back.


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## Jeffery

she is still in an affair and is feeling guilty, but no remorse and will only use you get her away from as soon as you can


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## happyman64

You can always reaffirm to her what your conditions for R are.

Hell, print them and put them on the fridge right in her face.

CONTINUE THE 180 for your benefit.

Stay strong and detach.

And if she was the one that is moving out then no staying over on Xmas Eve.

She does not deserve easy or convenience in her life right now.

*Make her feel the consequences for hER choices.

Or she will never learn from her mistakes.
*
HM64


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## Dewayne76

HM64 said it best. 

YOu can NOT let her have any convenience. If she moves out, no Xmas eve. I agree whole heartedly. She's leaving, she's not cooperating, why reward her? 

Good luck.


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## the guy

Duh...begging is just one part of the submission she needs to do. Hell ya transparentcy is a must so is getting down on her knees and submitting to the man she betrayed. Make no mistake those who know me here know I am speaking literaly and not figureritively.

Except nothing less from your WW and if she ask you again about begging you ...tell her to get on her knees and ask you that question again, then ask her to bend over and except one of many consequences she needs to face.

My point is that there is a huge degree of submission that a wayward must face in order to R. Sure I'm wired different then most but the princapal still applies in preventing a false R.


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## This is me

I swear the MLC is a mental illness which takes them over for a period of time. The damage done can be tolerable or untolerable depending on what they do under the fog and how much we can take.

180 is for you and only you can decide to keep it going if you need it.

At some point you need to say we are working to R or D and here are my requirements, for me.

I assume you are interested in R to be writing in this section.

I wish you well.


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## zillard

This is me said:


> At some point you need to say we are working to R or D and here are my requirements, for me.
> 
> I assume you are interested in R to be writing in this section.


I am still madly in love with the woman I was living with 6 months ago. So I AM interested in R... with HER, but not with the psycho hosebeast that took over her body.


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## zillard

Thanks everyone for the kick in the butt. I was too emotional this morning and falling for her crap. Why should I feel bad cuz she is too anxious and guilt-ridden to go to a kids bday party? 

I went and had fun. Daughter had even more fun. I got to see and talk to my sister for the first time since this summer and tell her about my situation. This is the first family member I've seen face to face since this happened - they all live out of state. 

After the party I returned home and stbxw was layin on the small talk like crazy, like we're best buds. I left her with daughter and went to the gun range. 

Now I'm home cleaning my handgun and she walked in with a serious look. {during affair fog and the 1 MC session she attended with me she blamed me for being too emotionally unavailable due to my brother's death...7 years ago. Said she had to play my shrink and I handled it poorly for years, leaving her drained}

So she stands in the doorway just now and asks me, "when [brother] died, what did you do that helped the most?" I asked why. She says one of her good friends (one of the crowd I've never met that she was hanging with throughout affair) just lost a best friend or brother in a car accident today and wanted advice on what to tell him - how to cope. 

Seriously!?! I did it it crappy and now you want my advice to help yet another guy you've never introduced me to? I didn't say this. I kept cool and replied calmly: 

"What I did after [brother] died was not at all helpful. You made that perfectly clear."

And she stormed out.


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## zillard

happyman64 said:


> And if she was the one that is moving out then no staying over on Xmas Eve.
> 
> She does not deserve easy or convenience in her life right now.
> 
> *Make her feel the consequences for hER choices.
> 
> Or she will never learn from her mistakes.
> *
> HM64


I told stbxw tonight that she could not stay here Xmas eve (she's moving out the 22nd). She was shocked and immediately started crying. She says she only wanted to do it for D6, to give her a normal Xmas. I asked her how getting off work at 10-11pm, commuting for 45mins, and then sleeping at my house would benefit D6 at all. 

She said so she could wrap presents and make cookies for Santa like normal and be here when D6 wakes up. I reminded her that D6 will want to leave cookies out before she goes to bed at 8-9pm, that she could wrap presents at her new apartment and that she could come over early in the morning, with D6 none the wiser. 

She persisted and insisted on and on (over 1/2 an hour) that it was for D6. I called her on it and said it's obvious that she only wants to stay here Xmas Eve so everything is normal for HER.

Her response: "Does this mean I don't get to keep a key to the house when I move out?". :rofl:

Me: "Yes. Once you move out this is no longer your home."

Her: "But I get to keep the white car and there's a house key on the key fob."

Me: "There won't be when you move out." :scratchhead:

Oi


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## happyman64

zillard said:


> I told stbxw tonight that she could not stay here Xmas eve (she's moving out the 22nd). She was shocked and immediately started crying. She says she only wanted to do it for D6, to give her a normal Xmas. I asked her how getting off work at 10-11pm, commuting for 45mins, and then sleeping at my house would benefit D6 at all.
> 
> She said so she could wrap presents and make cookies for Santa like normal and be here when D6 wakes up. I reminded her that D6 will want to leave cookies out before she goes to bed at 8-9pm, that she could wrap presents at her new apartment and that she could come over early in the morning, with D6 none the wiser.
> 
> She persisted and insisted on and on (over 1/2 an hour) that it was for D6. I called her on it and said it's obvious that she only wants to stay here Xmas Eve so everything is normal for HER.
> 
> Her response: "Does this mean I don't get to keep a key to the house when I move out?". :rofl:
> 
> Me: "Yes. Once you move out this is no longer your home."
> 
> Her: "But I get to keep the white car and there's a house key on the key fob."
> 
> Me: "There won't be when you move out." :scratchhead:
> 
> Oi


Your right. She does not get it. That is because she is selfish. Stick to your guns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

happyman64 said:


> Your right. She does not get it. That is because she is selfish. Stick to your guns.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo.

Jeffrey is correct. She feels guilt but not remorse. She even waffled last night on admitting her affair. Previously she had admitted to having one. Last night she said kissing on another man was merely inappropriate. I disagreed. Then she said ok, it was an emotional affair... with touching. :slap:

She's not accepting the finality of the D she requested. 

I've been guilty of that too, but due to the fact that I never wanted it. I need to stop hoping and continue the 180. For me.

Unfortunately I do have to show her some convenience this next weekend and help her move out. I know that if I don't she'll keep putting it off and try to stay through Xmas now that I took Xmas eve away. But I won't be doing it for her. I'll be doing it for me. I can't have her here as she is.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Her response: "Does this mean I don't get to keep a key to the house when I move out?".
> 
> Me: "Yes. Once you move out this is no longer your home."
> 
> Her: "But I get to keep the white car and there's a house key on the key fob."
> 
> Me: "There won't be when you move out."
> 
> Oi


You need to put your boot up her azz, maybe you'll knock a few brain cells loose! Need I tell you that you NEED to call a locksmith to come over the same afternoon that she leaves. Don't think she won't have an 'extra key' cut that you don't know anything about. And she might decide to use it, at a most inopportune time!



> Unfortunately I do have to show her some convenience this next weekend and help her move out. I know that if I don't she'll keep putting it off ...But I won't be doing it for her. I'll be doing it for me.


Put on your cr*ppiest, most disgusting clothes and REMIND YOURSELF you're taking out the trash! You could inquire as to WHY OM isn't helping her move?!?



> I need to stop hoping and continue the 180. For me.


And for your darling daughter! SHE deserves a normal, healthy, happy home which she is NOT going to see around there with your STBXW running from man to man (which she will ONCE she sees you're moving on without her, OM doesn't want her back, and she has to 'make it' on her own now. It will be very UGLY. But it will ALWAYS BE *HER* choice, not yours.)


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## Pepper123

OP - The only thing I am going to comment on is your presence for your DD... I have a DS that is also 6yo, and I've seen as his dad and I have been going through divorce that they learn to internalize a lot. When it was summer (before ex was dating) he would take my son out and do lots of things with him - swimming, tennis, etc. Then he met someone online, it got to be winter... now I think my son feels 2nd to him because he isn't going out to do things with him anymore, and after only a few months brought the new GF around. My son, who has always been very close with his dad... started clinging to me - the one that walked out of the marriage. 

You daughter needs you. Do what you need to do in regards to your not-remorseful wife. Do the locksmith... heck maybe even make the appt while your WW is in the room. She has obviously been thinking that her life is not going to change as drastically as it will. She will lose a family, home, spouse, and her relationship with her daughter will be forever changed. If she is willing to risk the precious components of her life because of OM, then the only thing left to do is help her pack.


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## sharkeey

You're not even close to the point where you can reasonably consider stopping the 180 and working towards reconciliation. You probably never will be.


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## zillard

I have Kwikset locks and will be changing them myself. 

I have D6 a child psychologist who is very impressed with her. I've scheduled out weekly appointments through February already and plan to keep her in therapy after the move out of state. 

We have a blast together! I mentioned to my IC how D6 is constantly drawing pictures of her and her mother, or just of mom. He said she is already feeling a lack of emotional connection to her mother and trying very hard to illicit an emotional response with her drawings. She isn't drawing me as she doesn't need to work for that. And this will only get worse after mom leaves. Poor kiddo.

Dam my stbxw. Shame on her.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Make sure your DD's grandma and aunts are ready to step in and do some 'girly' things with DD when you move! It's a fine line between being too pushy about her spending time with other women (not dates) and ignoring her mama-needs. I'm sure you'll do GREAT! And her new therapist will be able to give you help in this arena, too.


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## zillard

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Make sure your DD's grandma and aunts are ready to step in and do some 'girly' things with DD when you move! It's a fine line between being too pushy about her spending time with other women (not dates) and ignoring her mama-needs. I'm sure you'll do GREAT! And her new therapist will be able to give you help in this arena, too.


Yes! I have 3 sisters and 2 SILs, plus my mother living in the same town we're moving to who have already offered to help as much as needed. DD will need good female role models. That's one of the biggest reasons I decided to move. If I stay here so stbxw is physically close, that does not guarantee that she'll be emotionally close to D6 or a good role model. My IC agrees.


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## happyman64

zillard said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Jeffrey is correct. She feels guilt but not remorse. She even waffled last night on admitting her affair. Previously she had admitted to having one. Last night she said kissing on another man was merely inappropriate. I disagreed. Then she said ok, it was an emotional affair... with touching. :slap:
> 
> She's not accepting the finality of the D she requested.
> 
> I've been guilty of that too, but due to the fact that I never wanted it. I need to stop hoping and continue the 180. For me.
> 
> Unfortunately I do have to show her some convenience this next weekend and help her move out. I know that if I don't she'll keep putting it off and try to stay through Xmas now that I took Xmas eve away. But I won't be doing it for her. I'll be doing it for me. *I can't have her here as she is.*


No you can't......


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## Pepper123

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pepper123

zillard said:


> We have a blast together! I mentioned to my IC how D6 is constantly drawing pictures of her and her mother, or just of mom. He said she is already feeling a lack of emotional connection to her mother and trying very hard to illicit an emotional response with her drawings. She isn't drawing me as she doesn't need to work for that. And this will only get worse after mom leaves. Poor kiddo.
> 
> Dam my stbxw. Shame on her.


This is really interesting... Something I hadn't thought of. My son is always drawing pictures of the three of us, or just him and his dad. Never just he and I... So sad to watch your baby mourn for things in their own ways 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadwithtwolittlegirls

Check the family laws in your area. In Canada you can not take away access to a house her name is on until you have an order from the court barring her from the matrimonial home. Until that point you can not change the locks nor take away her key. 

It will look bad in court if you do something not inline with your laws. Check into that before you do it. Please.


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## zillard

Sadwithtwolittlegirls said:


> Check the family laws in your area. In Canada you can not take away access to a house her name is on until you have an order from the court barring her from the matrimonial home. Until that point you can not change the locks nor take away her key.
> 
> It will look bad in court if you do something not inline with your laws. Check into that before you do it. Please.


Well, crap! No "encumbering" access. However, we are filing a "consent decree" so there are no lawyers, just a final judgement. I guess after we've both signed and notarized the decree (before she leaves Sat) I'll just have to request the key. Then she can request access and I will let her in, for the purposes of inspecting the property and getting it ready to sale, etc. But she cannot use access to "harass or bother the spouse or children". 

So at least I have that and can bar access if she's agro or stopping by at odd hours. And since I work from home during the day... bam! Don't bother me.


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## Dadwithtwolittlegirls

Just making sure your protected


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## zillard

Just as I suspected. Move is 5 days away and she still hasn't packed anything. I went out this morning and came back with a bundle of large boxes. Merry Xmas, get your butt in gear!


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## zillard

zillard said:


> Just as I suspected. Move is 5 days away and she still hasn't packed anything. I went out this morning and came back with a bundle of large boxes. Merry Xmas, get your butt in gear!


I told her I want the boxes back after for my move out of state.


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## hope4family

zillard. I feel for you. s2bxw said the same thing to me about keys. Was upset when I asked for my parents house keys that I gave her and the car keys. I have let her keep the apartment key as her name is on the lease. 

In truth, those keys signify that I still want her to come home. I am doing the 180 though and dont talk to her unless its child or D related. 

If she ever really wanted to R. She can always just walk in.


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## sharkeey

zillard said:


> Just as I suspected. Move is 5 days away and she still hasn't packed anything. I went out this morning and came back with a bundle of large boxes. Merry Xmas, get your butt in gear!



You can't force her to move out. The harder you push, them more she'll resist.

Even if she leaves she can return any time she wants.

Until and unless a court document says otherwise.


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## zillard

sharkeey said:


> You can't force her to move out. The harder you push, them more she'll resist.
> 
> Even if she leaves she can return any time she wants.
> 
> Until and unless a court document says otherwise.


This morning she asked if I wanted her friends to help ME load the truck Saturday. 

Told her it's her move and she needs to let me know if she wants MY help. 

Then she told me I'm the one that wanted divorce. :slap:
Reminded her that she asked for the D and I went along because she told me she was unwilling to work on the marriage. 

My sister says "It's her f'd up world. You're just living in it."


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## hope4family

Zillard. I am going through the exact same thing. No idea of the who what and where. Just here I am same as you. 

Oh, and no matter what you are going to be the one who wanted divorce. Get used to it. Blame shifting.


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## zillard

hope4family said:


> Zillard. I am going through the exact same thing. No idea of the who what and where. Just here I am same as you.
> 
> Oh, and no matter what you are going to be the one who wanted divorce. Get used to it. Blame shifting.


Yeah, if it makes her feel better. I know what happened. I'm sober. Haven't bought a bottle since D-Day and haven't touched as much as a beer in almost 2 weeks.

Feels *great*!


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## zillard

WTF?

Her move out date is Saturday and she still hasn't packed a thing! I continue 180 but had to reserve a moving truck and buy boxes simply because she hasn't. 

Maybe she's thinking she can pack everything AND move it all on Saturday because I'll help? And I will, but for 2 reasons - I can't have her here any longer the way she is and it will be good for D6 to see us cooperating through the move. I've packed a few boxes with D6 so she can feel a part of the move but hate the fact that stbxw seems to be relying on me to do it all and taking my help for granted. 

I have plans to go out Sat night after the move with a good friend from HS that I haven't seen in years because stbxw hated that he's a ladies man. And I gave in - stupid. He's a fitness instructor and single and I need that kind of friend right now to kick my butt into gear (with fitness and adjusting to single life). 

Should I keep packing her crap? If I don't I feel I'll have to do it all Saturday anyway. That or she'll get overwhelmed and try to push the move date back. Which will cause more tension that D6 will pick up on and disappoint her as she's really excited to go see "their" apt and stay with mom that night to help her unpack.


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## sharkeey

She's not going anywhere anytime soon.

At least work under that assumption.

Think of things from a legal perspective now. If you pack up all her stuff and put it on the street a court may frown highly on that, however she did say she was planning to move so you could make the argument that you were helping as promised, and it's not your fault that she didn't follow through on her end of the plans. 

Do you have solid proof that she was planning to move, other than her words to that effect? Moving van reservation receipts, written correspondance from her, anything like that?

If so I think I'd take the aggressive move of packing up all her stuff and at least putting it in the garage, or maybe the backyard, or if you're feeling gutsy, then on the front yard or by the curb, but consider the ramifications of doing so.

Just remember how it will look to the courts and how you will justify your actions.


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## zillard

sharkeey said:


> She's not going anywhere anytime soon.
> 
> At least work under that assumption.
> 
> Think of things from a legal perspective now. If you pack up all her stuff and put it on the street a court may frown highly on that, however she did say she was planning to move so you could make the argument that you were helping as promised, and it's not your fault that she didn't follow through on her end of the plans.
> 
> Do you have solid proof that she was planning to move, other than her words to that effect? Moving van reservation receipts, written correspondance from her, anything like that?
> 
> If so I think I'd take the aggressive move of packing up all her stuff and at least putting it in the garage, or maybe the backyard, or if you're feeling gutsy, then on the front yard or by the curb, but consider the ramifications of doing so.
> 
> Just remember how it will look to the courts and how you will justify your actions.


Earlier this week we both signed and notarized the consent decree, which has to sit on my desk until the waiting period is up on Valentines Day. I can file that day to get final stamp from the judge. Petition and Acceptance of Service already filed. House proceeds will be split 50/50 after the sale. I have multiple emails from her re: her move. Another this morning about her plans to take cashier's check to the apt office later today for the deposit and pro-rated rent for the rest of December.


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## zillard

zillard said:


> her plans to take cashier's check to the apt office later today for the deposit and pro-rated rent for the rest of December.


And yes, that will be coming out of her money.


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## sharkeey

zillard said:


> Earlier this week we both signed and notarized the consent decree, which has to sit on my desk until the waiting period is up on Valentines Day. I can file that day to get final stamp from the judge. Petition and Acceptance of Service already filed. House proceeds will be split 50/50 after the sale. I have multiple emails from her re: her move. Another this morning about her plans to take cashier's check to the apt office later today for the deposit and pro-rated rent for the rest of December.


As long as it's clear that you maintain sole possession of the marital residence during the interim, it appears to be all good.

Pack up her stuff and throw it in the yard.

If you want to be a nice guy throw a tarp over it and let her know (via civil, written correspondance clearly stating that you assisting with the move as promised), where here stuff is and when the next precipitation is forecast.


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## Dadwithtwolittlegirls

Yep.. put her stuff in the yard on Saturday.... 

I like the idea of a tarp...


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## zillard

Sadwithtwolittlegirls said:


> Yep.. put her stuff in the yard on Saturday....
> 
> I like the idea of a tarp...


While that would be completely satisfying, I cannot. What kind of message would that send my D6, who is in my care?

The garage works though!


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## Pepper123

zillard said:


> While that would be completely satisfying, I cannot. What kind of message would that send my D6, who is in my care?
> 
> The garage works though!


This is exactly what I was thinking when I read suggestions above. Throughout my own divorce I have tried on every level to take the high road. At times it can be really frustrating because you feel like you are constantly getting the shaft, but in the end I think it is worth it. You want to be proud of how you handled and walked away from the situation. You can do that without being an a-hole despite her actions.


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## zillard

Well, she called in sick tonight to pack - after I pointed out it would be stretch for her to get all her packing and moving done in the same day. 

Then we discussed Sunday evening drop offs of D6 (stbxw will have her Sat nights). She mentioned her possibly bringing D6 back home in time to have "family dinner" on Sunday nights. I didn't answer her.

Oi. Not sure how I feel about that, especially re: D6. Would that give D6 false hope or be good for her to see us cordial enough to eat a meal together? Do I even want to eat a meal with her? Ug. Plus how can she miss me if we have a weekly "family" meal? How can I move on? Just thinking out loud. Leaning toward No.


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## Too Little Too Late?

zillard said:


> Well, she called in sick tonight to pack - after I pointed out it would be stretch for her to get all her packing and moving done in the same day.
> 
> Then we discussed Sunday evening drop offs of D6 (stbxw will have her Sat nights). She mentioned her possibly bringing D6 back home in time to have "family dinner" on Sunday nights. I didn't answer her.
> 
> Oi. Not sure how I feel about that, especially re: D6. Would that give D6 false hope or be good for her to see us cordial enough to eat a meal together? Do I even want to eat a meal with her? Ug. Plus how can she miss me if we have a weekly "family" meal? How can I move on? Just thinking out loud. Leaning toward No.


I vote no.


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## zillard

Now she wants me to help her hang up curtains in her new apt tomorrow. The f'n nerve!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pepper123

Repeat after me: "No. I'm sorry, but I don't think that is a good idea."

Seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Said, "sorry, you are more than capable of doing it yourself. Plus, I have plans tomorrow night". 

Stbxw - where are you going?

Me - "out."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

As far as sunday dinners... Will use your mantra, pepper. Have a feeling I'll be using it quite a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy

The title of the thread is, "when do I stop the 180?"

From the look of your thread, it doesn't look like you ever started. You're not detaching, you're still her slave.

Maybe that's not apparent to you because you feel like you're making progress, but I can take one look at your thread and tell that she still rules your world.


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