# My Story/MANifesto - For those who have asked - (LONG)



## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Several members have asked me about the nature or my posts or what my "story" was regarding my opinions on the dynamic of relationships between men and women. I'm an early 30s male who has had probably more than my share of relationships with women. I'm not a cheater nor have I ever been. 

I was a typical "nice guy" who loved pretty girls and wanted to meet one and have a relationship. I saw the bad side of marriage early on (parents separated before I was born), so my views on it from a young age were "I'm not getting married". Fast forward to a few years ago, I'm dating a woman I had met after she contacted me online (the story later changed, but ill get to that later). We dated for about six months (after about 3 months in she began with the marriage pressure). EDIT: we dated for 6 months up to this point. Overall it was about 2 yrs

I was heading away on a business trip and she told me to "have fun and do what you want to do". This seemed like an ODD thing to say so immediately I asked her if she was seeing someone else. She replied that she was "talking to a guy" she had met on some group bowling event her girlfriends and their boyfriends/guy friends had. In her words, one of her female friends didn't know about me, so this female friend gave her number to the other guy (without consulting her, cause you know she wasn't standing 2 feet away or anything). Now men, (and you ladies know this is true), a woman will NEVER give a girls number to a man without explicit permission. So she talks to this guy on the phone for 2 weeks, never bringing it up, and then the real kicker that set me off "he knows about you we talk about you most of the time" So she basically told me shes been calling and conversing with some guy who she got "hooked up with" by her friend, and all they talk about is me, the in the dark boyfriend. I immediately became fiercely distrustful and lost any sort of deep affection I had for her. That single act ruined me in our relationship and though it continued for another year and a half it was never the same. 

When I realized women had the capacity to condone this sort of behavior in their minds, I realized I would never allow another woman who did any of the things this particular woman did to me ever again without eliminating her from my life forever. Other highlights:

She would talk to lots of "guy friends" including men she had sex with in the past. 

She became increasingly rude (especially in front of her friends (female of course, I wasn't *that* beta haha), whom she would bring to my home after I explicitly told her not to have anyone at my home without my prior consent). Id show up and people would be in *MY* house (she lived with her parents).

She became physically aggressive/violent on multiple occasions (shes 5'1, I'm 6'3 so she felt it was ok to strike me with a closed fist). She rationalized/vocalized it that I didn't share her views on marriage so I brought out the worst in her. When she punched me the 2nd to last time, I just walked away and went to my office to work on something, she actually came to the doorway and said, in a snotty tone "are we gonna talk about this?" i looked at her as if she was an alien and she turned around and stormed out. Like I was the one who hit her. I kept doing what I was doing and she called about 2 hrs later berating me for not calling to see if she had made it home OK.. I CANNOT MAKE THIS UP PEOPLE.

She routinely changed the history of the relationship, including how we met, and other minute details that in my opinion weren't even that important.

Lets see.. more highlights..she began having an online "friendship" from some man from out of state. She brought it up to me, and then would gush over this man as if he was god himself descended upon earth. She said he and her had so much in common, and me and her werent compatible etc etc you get the idea. I found an message thread on my computer between her and a friend where the friend and her were talking about this other man. The basic theme was her friend saying hes unattractive (they exchanged pics) but she could still talk to him and "just don't get caught". Then she sarcastically asked "oh, how's "ronin" and they both laughed. 

Towards the end of the relationship she would use thinly veiled ad hominem attacks in front of her friends, even culminating in her telling me to "shut my trap" when i was having an unrelated conversation with her best friends husband while playing games at the dinner table. Just out of the blue "shut your trap". Her vitriol towards me was let out of the bag that day and I knew we would end shortly. A few weeks later (of course after I totaled my car going to pick her up after she wrecked her car in an ice storm, and the grandmother who raised me while mom worked died) she text messaged me to tell me she wanted to see other men. I protested for about a week through the usual channels (text, pleading on voicemails, haha imagine that) at first but quickly realized how happy I was to be free of her. After the shock of being "dumped" for the first time wore off, I became elated that I was free of her. I ceased calling her and stopped speaking to her 100%. No phone calls, no texts, and I ignored all her contact. When she left, she kept the garage opener so she still had a way to get into my condo. A few weeks later she came by and I was upstairs sleeping, and she dropped off the opener. I have not seen her since the DAY she texted me that she was going to date other men. That morning I left and she didn't mention it, she waited until I was at work and was gone when I returned home. 

I can understand it being her right to leave. That isn't my issue. My irritation and anger is directed at myself for allowing her to treat me that way for so long, and keep her in my life, and even plead with her to stay. 

This fact is the reason I am so opinionated about men who allow women to be disloyal/dishonest/disrespectful to them, and try to hold onto them. It only took one woman to ruin/teach me for others. I still treat women fairly, but when they do any of the things this woman did, I recognize the signs immediately, and I cut them loose forever. No talking, no stories, no girlfriends corroborating lies. They're just gone. When men stop allowing this behavior, women will stop doing it. As a society men have been trained to be chivalrous and "nice" but that worked when women were sugar and spice and everything nice. Now they're covered in tattoos and drinking heavily in bars and clubs and looking for attention from every man whos willing to give it to them. And if *you* as the boyfriend or husband didn't bend to her will that day, she WILL tell her friends and they WILL tell her "forget him, you can do what you want" and combined with the inert peer pressure and diminished judgement from alcohol use, she might do something unforgivable. Regardless, when she "makes a mistake", remember you have ALREADY given her a chance when you started dating her. Once she cheats, She's out. Under no circumstances can a woman remain in my life once they have become disloyal/disrespectful/dishonest. Remember that gentlemen, and you will have a much better relationship experience. I have absolutely 0 issue with cutting a lying woman loose and beginning to see another woman within a short amount of time. I realize my methods don't work for many men, and married men have more invested, but I refuse to waste my life with someone who gains from my presence while not providing anything in return but lies. 

I'm not some loser who has to hold onto that type of relationship. I'm educated (currently pursuing an M.B.A/M.S) while managing multiple corporations of which I am a 100% shareholder (RE/stocks/commodities). I don't have to settle for these types of women, and neither do other men. Get yourselves in order gentlemen, be the man you want to be and meet the woman you want to meet. Just remember.. if she does anything that makes you uncomfortable, use your best judgement, but don't fall for her excuses of naivete or inebriation. Don't even let her get away with it once. Put that emotion of letting her go into finding a new woman. There are millions of them, and they're looking for high end men who aren't liars, abusive, ex-felons. Don't settle for low end women. ever. Leave them to the losers who put them on a pedestal and condone their trashy behavior.

I don't want to put all of the fault with the woman, because most of it lies with me. This is why I tell men to leave when this sort of trouble comes up. Respectful women who love their BF/husband don't do these kinds of things. My mistake was letting it continue on for so long without curbing it through decisive action. So when people see me saying "get rid of her" I'm not just preaching, I'm a former chump who knows now when to get out. In modern society, you will have to get out early and often, and I practice what I preach.

I invite questions, responses and even healthy debate. Ill check back frequently

Ronin


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Well, you definitely have boundaries. However, out of curiosity, have you lost trust? Do you start looking for signs where none exist to justify protecting your emotions so you can deliver a preemptive strike?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Absolutely not. I go into it with an open mind, and I have pretty normal relationships (right up until the end I guess) but I follow the rules and I never waver. Sometimes I'm in a relationship and then I get totally blindsided by some random idiotic thing that ends the relationship. I actually don't expect it but when it happens I react. There are women that aren't "like that" but unfortunately they are increasingly rare and probably almost extinct modern American society. 

Luckily I don't plan to be married so I have very little to lose. It's not for everyone, but I have adapted to the current conditions in society in a manner that works best for me.

One confession, I never let on or give them any "rules" or boundaries. I expect women to be women by default, so I don't give them a basis to lie or hide things by telling them what I wont allow. I know I cant have romantic conversations with other woman and I cant cheat so they should know too. When they do, they're out. No warnings, ultimatums or reconciliation. 

Ronin


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ronin said:


> Absolutely not. I go into it with an open mind, and I have pretty normal relationships (right up until the end I guess) but I follow the rules and I never waver. Sometimes I'm in a relationship and then I get totally blindsided by some random idiotic thing that ends the relationship. I actually don't expect it but when it happens I react. There are women that aren't "like that" but unfortunately they are increasingly rare and probably almost extinct modern American society.
> 
> Luckily I don't plan to be married so I have very little to lose. It's not for everyone, but I have adapted to the current conditions in society in a manner that works best for me.
> 
> ...


Has it happened to you a lot? Like, every time? Or perhaps enough that maybe you need to start thinking about why? Perhaps something in your personality that makes the same behaviors repeat? Like Nice Guy Syndrome? Too accommodating? To much give from you that the sexual spark loses it's luster and disrespect of you sets in? Or maybe your preference in females always guarantees you the same kind of gal, although subconsciously?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Thank you for taking the time to share this.

Men, we do not have much of a source growing up for these types of discussions, to understand this side of the fairer sex.

What I advise my sons, and this is somewhat different than your idea, is to spell out very point blank what is tolerated and not.

My opinion, a woman simply CRAVES knowing her man is jealous of her, and whatever verbal admonishments such as "you should trust me" are merely fitness tests, and should be dealt with accordingly.

Any form of a man putting the woman on a pedastal, in behavior, is not helping either him or his woman or his sexual relationship.

In my own marriage, I keep a consistent thread to my wife of the attitude "I'm watching you because I know you are a woman", sometimes outright verbally, humorous, but mostly with a glance or simple gesture or similar. 

Her reactions, priceless but always good in the grand scheme!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, but it's a priceless skill that some of us are learning. And as there are no "courses" to take, i find it a challenge figuring out all the rules of the game, that's for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you believe you are "lucky to have her" and you behave accordingly, you are headed for big trouble.

She is "lucky to have you".

And, your behavior should reflect that - if you want her to be secure.



BigBadWolf said:


> Thank you for taking the time to share this.
> 
> Men, we do not have much of a source growing up for these types of discussions, to understand this side of the fairer sex.
> 
> ...


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ronin the samurai...

I think I can agree to your mode of thought. I also agree that some of us learn of these boundary enforcements after kids are involved, which makes it a not so black and white decision to just stay or leave. If there were no kids involved in my situation, the stbx would never have been given as many chances as she was given. I would have been out the door so fast the door wouldn't have even had a chance to hit my a$$ as I left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm not a serial nice guy. It only took one time to teach me. I'm the "bad boy" now although I'm still loyal to my current GFs. It's not me attracting the same type of woman continually. It's more of the fact that most of them are like this. I don't make the rules I just adapt to society in order to win.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

For the record, my way isn't the end all be all method it just works favorably for me. Much of what I say is based on experience (my own and others). I guess one thing I would offer is to absolutely require respect in you relationship. I don't want to give people the impression that I'm anti-woman, I'm just pro respect. (Mutual of course). I recommend "the art of seduction" by Robert green. He also wrote "48 laws of power" for those unfamiliar with his work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ronin said:


> I'm not a serial nice guy. It only took one time to teach me. I'm the "bad boy" now although I'm still loyal to my current GFs. It's not me attracting the same type of woman continually. It's more of the fact that most of them are like this. I don't make the rules I just adapt to society in order to win.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a fan of Alan Pease, body language "guru". He and his wife published "The Mating Game" a new bestseller and I've just been reading it.

They talk of the affect of Feminism on male/female relationships and it’s quite enlightening. The general essence of what they communicate is that the young woman of today has removed the inhibitions that were there with the young woman of “yesterday”. It’s seems like some form of moral/social conscience has “gone”.

But I’m a guy whose young days were in the 60s and 70s and there were women who slept around then, it’s always been there. But I think the really big change is in the percentage of women who do it, even in marriages. The book refers to research via DNA studies that 1 in 15 children are not the children of the husband of the mother. Goodness knows the consequences now to many husband’s, marriages and whatever the future holds for the children. Or indeed the wives/mothers themselves.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> In my own marriage, I keep a consistent thread to my wife of the attitude "I'm watching you because I know you are a woman", sometimes outright verbally, humorous, but mostly with a glance or simple gesture or similar.
> 
> Her reactions, priceless but always good in the grand scheme!


I wonder how many men, partners and husbands, really know just how often their wife or girlfriend gets “hit on” everyday? At work, clothes or food shopping etc. etc. And because they’re being hit on many times they are also turning down many men many times. And they do this every single day of their lives. Of course until they reach some “age” where it no longer happens. And of course, the more attractive, appealing the wife or girlfriend is the more she will be hit on and the more men she will “turn down”.

Imagine being a man walking down the street and loads of women hit on you. They glance you up and down and wait to see if you respond.

Women have a whole world of opportunity to be unfaithful, to try someone new for a PA or EA that most men simply do not have. And of course because of that we should keep an eye on them!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It sounds like you got burned badly. It's also good you recognize this: _I don't want to put all of the fault with the woman, because most of it lies with me. _

I think it's great that you have strong boundaries in place. Just don't let your thinking about "most women" shield you from having a good and healthy relationship in the future. 

IMO, people who treat their women as if she struck out w/ gold just cause she landed them and discount the fact that they are equally lucky to have their ladies in their lives also are in for a rude wake up call.

If a partner treats his woman as she won the jackpot and they themselves only got a consolation prize ......that comes across as really unfair and the woman will definitely pick up on it.

Some people can work past infidelity, others cannot. If someone wants to work out their relationship/marriage post-infidelity, good for them. If not, good for them. To each their own.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ronin,
You have to steer your own ship in the manner that works best for you. Without knowing your threshold for "one mistake and we are permanently over" it is not possible to have a view. 

If that threshold is "you slept with another man - ok". If it is you flirted with another man, that is fine to provided you want to end up with a woman with a very mild personality. 

What you will discover over time is that the most interesting women have an edge to them. And ALL of those women push boundaries. And part of the "fun" becomes enforcing your boundaries. That doesn't mean you have to tolerate being hit with a closed fist. Or your GF blatantly going on "dates" with other men. It does mean that for "lesser offences" you develop a behavioral toolkit that has a range of intermediate responses that fall short of a total and permanent "walk away". 

If at some point you want to sustain a long term relationship with an "interesting" woman you are going to have to combine the resolve you currently have, with a skillset that effectively shapes female behavior. 





Ronin said:


> For the record, my way isn't the end all be all method it just works favorably for me. Much of what I say is based on experience (my own and others). I guess one thing I would offer is to absolutely require respect in you relationship. I don't want to give people the impression that I'm anti-woman, I'm just pro respect. (Mutual of course). I recommend "the art of seduction" by Robert green. He also wrote "48 laws of power" for those unfamiliar with his work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> Thank you for taking the time to share this.
> 
> Men, we do not have much of a source growing up for these types of discussions, to understand this side of the fairer sex.
> 
> ...


BBW once again spouts how useless, brainless and ... never saw this one before... morally bankrupt women are. If you feel that way about them, why would you want one? Just to stick your meat in a hole? You don't need to MARRY someone to get that.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

You know that commerical where the couple is in the art gallery and the guy clearly doesn't want to be there and he "accidentally" touches one of the paintings so that the gallery staff asks them to leave. Then the group of guys in the background start giving him the slow clap that builds up to a full on fast clap.....

This is me giving you and your story the slow clap.

Every word you say is true. Part of being a man is having the inner strength to not get walked all over. I'm happy for you that you realized it. I only hope that one day we can all be so self aware. We'd be happier that's for sure.


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Ronin,
> You have to steer your own ship in the manner that works best for you. Without knowing your threshold for "one mistake and we are permanently over" it is not possible to have a view.
> 
> If that threshold is "you slept with another man - ok". If it is you flirted with another man, that is fine to provided you want to end up with a woman with a very mild personality.
> ...


I don't believe flirting with other men is due to a woman with an "edgy" personality. If being flirty and inappropriate with other men means a woman has an edgy personality then trust me, ill take mild. I hope I haven't given people the impression that I walk away over trivial things (ok maybe I have given that impression), but it is always something that would be considered a huge red flag. I'm not into giving chances to women who have shown themselves to have the capacity for such blatant and far reaching disloyalty. There is no need to continue with a person like that. They have been mild mannered, edgy, fun, bubbly, sexy, corny, nerdy, kinky.. you name it.... society has flawed the connection between men and women, and I guess my tolerance level never caught up with the changes in our society over time. It sickens me to see men accepting this behavior from women and I'll just never be on board with it. Women know and have had the audacity to tell me that they will continue their behavior simply because "a lot of guys talk to me, and ill always be able to get someone" and I feel the same way. They get to date the guys who talk to them and I get to date another woman. Ill never settle for that sort of behavior. I don't agree with what you inferred - that a woman will be boring if shes not flirting with other men. 

Ronin


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Ronin,
> You have to steer your own ship in the manner that works best for you. Without knowing your threshold for "one mistake and we are permanently over" it is not possible to have a view.
> 
> If that threshold is "you slept with another man - ok". If it is you flirted with another man, that is fine to provided you want to end up with a woman with a very mild personality.
> ...


You said it much better than I could, MEM.

Reading Ronin's post, believe it or not, made me think of the "How I Met Your Mother" episode in which they all join a gym, and Ted, day after day, finds a "reason" he can't work out, such as "forgetting" his gym clothes to getting on a treadmill and finding his iPod battery is dead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Firstly I'll say i find this post kind of sad. You let somebody elses bad relationship (marriage) determine how YOUR life would be.

That says to me that you set relationships up for failure before they start. JMO

Secondly, most of us men and women have been through bad relationships and break ups, I have been with someone who cheated on me (I left) I have been with someone abusive (I left) and I have been married and it didn't work out.

However I am not going to rob my fiance and I the chance to have a good relationship in spite of the past. I could say I am never marrying again etc but that would just say that I did not have faith in my fiance, and I didn't trust him enough that we can make our relationship work.

Not setting boundaries and expecting people to know what they are is a very bad idea. I know of men and women who think that kissing someone else is not cheating as long as it goes no further, my boundaries are quite different to that. My fiance deserves to know them from the get go and I deserve to know his. He doesn't believe it's fine to have friends of the opposite sex, and I would agree with this one, so we now know our boundaries are somewhat aligned, and there is no mistaking if we cross them.



I agree with MEM, I think I'm interesting (doesn't everyone lol), and I don't flirt with other men, but I do need a man who makes the boundaries clear and lets me know when I'm behaving in a way that's not acceptable to him. It's actually very sexy. I want a man who will say NO to me when it's appropriate.
You need better communication skills and a much more open heart IMO.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Syrum,
You have a very healthy view of this. 




Syrum said:


> Firstly I'll say i find this post kind of sad. You let somebody elses bad relationship (marriage) determine how YOUR life would be.
> 
> That says to me that you set relationships up for failure before they start. JMO
> 
> ...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Agreed. Syrum's post is spot on.

Ronin's initial post does come across as bitter and jaded a little bit. 

You can't have boundaries or rules and not let the other person know. I mean, you can but it's sort of strange to do that, IMO.

If they cheat and you want no part of it, cut them off, which is what you said you do. it works for you, so that is good.

But maybe you should open up a little more and allow yourself to be more intimate in the honest sense with women and let them know what you're down with and what you're not down with. That is true intimacy: transparency.


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

I can agree with syrum and jellybean on some points. I guess I haven't come to the point where I can allow something so blatantly obvious to pass. I shouldn't have to tell someone they cant date other people when we are in a closed relationship. 

"Not setting boundaries and expecting people to know what they are is a very bad idea. I know of men and women who think that kissing someone else is not cheating as long as it goes no further, my boundaries are quite different to that. My fiance deserves to know them from the get go and I deserve to know his. He doesn't believe it's fine to have friends of the opposite sex, and I would agree with this one, so we now know our boundaries are somewhat aligned, and there is no mistaking if we cross them."

Syrum, in your post, everything you said is pretty much in line with what I would expect from a woman. You agree with the common things men would expect a woman to know and understand. I don't need to give you a list of things you shouldn't do. You don't have to tell me not to flirt with other women, or date girls on the side, or take phone numbers, or have inappropriate conversations with women on facebook, or any of the other 5.4 million things men can do that offend/irritate WAGs. I'm intelligent and honest enough to know its not fair to my partner for me to do those things so I police myself. 

To be completely candid, I intentionally don't give them boundaries to see what they do in the absence of any set "rules". it helps me to determine their natural character. If I tell a woman "I don't like women chatting to other men on facebook", they will say "ok" and either do it in secret, or not do it, but secretly resent me for not allowing it. I want women to be themselves. If who they are isn't a good fit for me, then so be it. Why be pressed into a situation they don't fit in. The issue here is that most modern women in our current society are doing things that are totally out of line and they either A) dont realize it (.0005% of the time) or B) realize it, but pretend they don't to have a built in alibi should they be called on it (all the rest of the time). I'm not here to argue, just stating my opinions. Most men who have dealt with a diverse range of women would agree with me on this. 

That same woman from the story above used the excuse that "we never said we were dating" as one of her reasons for talking to the other guy. It was so offensive and insulting to my intelligence to think I would actually go for that after her and I had been sleeping together for six months and she always professed that she never would sleep with someone she wasn't in a committed relationship with. She grasped for every excuse to condone her behavior. Either way, I have no problem being jaded. Jaded is good. I'm jaded towards bad investments too. That means I don't enter them or stay in them when I see signs of them going south early on. When its ok for me to date other women until a woman tells me I can't, ill verbalize my boundaries. I want a woman who knows obvious do's and don'ts of a relationship before we can move on into something deeper. This isn't rocket science. I'm not going to sit by the phone while they play around with other guys. They try to do it until you say its not OK then act as if they didn't know. Its insulting to me and I won't stand for it.  I also wont give a grown up a list of rules to follow "or else". I let woman be who they are naturally, and when who they are naturally is not in line with what I want from a partner, I let them go. It may be a hardline stance, but at my age I don't have time for kid games, or women who test the waters to see what they can get away with. It happens a lot in relationships in my experience, and it's so common that anyone who refuses to allow it is looked at as "jaded" and "bitter" but really I have the fortitude to let go of them and find someone better. That's not jaded or bitter, it's exceptional. 

If a woman said she didn't allow boyfriends to treat her with any disrespect, or be disloyal or flirt with other women or she broke up with them immediately, she wouldn't be called jaded and bitter, she would be praised and cheered on by other women. When a man does it, we're just jaded losers who can't get a girl. The double standard exists because women realize their games don't fly with men like me so they either have to play nice or play elsewhere. I can get a another woman as fast as a woman can get another man, because I realize that men with my dynamic aren't as common as pretty girls with no respect/loyalty. In the end, I'm not losing, the disloyal/disrespectful/dishonest women are. 

Ronin


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Agreed. Syrum's post is spot on.
> 
> Ronin's initial post does come across as bitter and jaded a little bit.
> 
> ...


From wikipedia: *Transparency*, as used in the humanities and in a social context more generally, implies *openness*, *communication*, and *accountability*

It would be too easy to say "hey "Ronin", I met this guy on facebook and he asked me out for coffee, and because I think he is interesting, I'm going to go out with him. Would that be an issue for you? We all know that doesn't happen though. Women just go out with the guy, for weeks or months. When the "boyfriend" catches on, then they become defensive and run the "damn I'm caught" script: We're just friends, its nothing serious, I didn't think you would mind, its no big deal, (insert 500 other things women say when caught being disloyal to their boyfriends/husbands). 

The very term you used (transparency) is one so blatantly disregarded by the exact type of women (and men but that's for a woman's POV and not at all my concern) I avoid/stop seeing as a rule. They continually want to A) have their cake and B) eat it too. This is the exact behavior I want curbed. Its excessively common in our society, and while I can't/won't speak for women but I can speak for men when I say it needs to end.

The example of openness and communication was shown above. Accountability from a woman is another story, since it is never their fault. In fact, if I get upset or even take any sort of issue I become the one at fault. I'm "jealous", "jaded", "insecure", or whatever other of the 12 trillion things a woman would say about me when I won't roll over and accept their treacherous behavior. 

Men are sitting at home reading this and cheering me on because I'm a man, and I'm quite proud of myself for writing this. Everything I'm saying is true. 

You want more honesty? If ANY ONE of the women who have done one of these dishonest/disloyal/disrespectful things had said "honey, I'm really sorry, I got carried away, it was just small talk at first, and I knew it was wrong, but I figured what's the harm, its just coffee, I was going to tell you but after I went I realized it was inappropriate and I was afraid you would be mad" I would have just laughed it off and said It offends me that you would go on a date with another man, and left it at that. But in ALL my experiences, that has NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENED. There is your accountability from women. ZERO. And they have had plenty of chances. 

So you see, I'm not jaded, I'm just well versed with women (plenty of them too, from many races, educational backgrounds and socio-economic levels) who lack any sort of transparency or loyalty, and I cut them off forever, immediately.

Ronin


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

I will say, there is much truth in what you are saying, for it is not unknown that a woman, since primal times, lacking the physical leverage over the opposite sex, has instead at her disposal honed the sexual instincts of subtlety and diversion to depths not easily fathomed! 

However, understand this, until you wrap your mind around the fact that sexually, a woman simply will NOT be responding like a man, and vice versa, frustration and mistrust concerning women will continue.

Loyalty, transparency, accountability? These things maybe good for business deals or having in a fishing buddy. 

Concerning sexual attraction, they are less than meaningless.

A man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated.

Adding or subtracting from that simple structure, anyone would merely be fooling themselves!

Working together, these ancient and primal sparks of conflict such as sparring and flirting and fitness tests, the sparks of sexual tension produce the roaring flame of sexual attraction and desire.

For most men, they are not looking for mirrors of themselves, how BORING is that! 

INstead we say opposites attract, but that is just scratching the surface of the meaning, which is really two halves looking to be a greater and more blissful whole.

So the man who is frustrated with how women behave, that is good, yes, for it spurs him on to study and use his wits to find the means to that treasure!

Want a woman to be loyal? Then be so much the man in commanding respect that she would feel it a terrible folly to even consider some other man who is so far beneath the man she has!

Want a woman to be transparent? Then be so much the man in strength as to allow the woman to feel secure enough to lower her defenses and be vulnerable as your woman. This is feminine at it's core.

So simply this, however correct it is to insist on having in a sexual relationship these things, it is less than a waste of time to insist on these tings with mere words.

The man in the relationship, to get what he wants, and be sure it is perfectly possible even in this day and age, he will NOT get them by merely wishing or hoping or talking or complaining.

Only by HIS OWN ACTION AND BEHAVIOR will he find what he is looking for, to discover the beauty and love of a woman, vulnerable and revealed to him and him alone! 

BUt these things, like the ancient tales of the knight wanting to win the princess, but first he must first slay whatever dragons need slaying, and these things are never done with talking or hoping or wishful thinking but in action and behavior to demonstrate the mettle the knight is made of, so it is with sexual relations since ancient and primal times.

All good men reading this, do not be timid to show your woman the mettle you are made of!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wolf,

A truth often passed on by experienced men is that the dragon and fair maiden are often the same person.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Conrad,

Absolutely!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> A man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated.


I was with you 'til this. I am a woman and - nope.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ Yeah I smiled at that one, too. :lol: 

Ronin, you're right, you shouldn't have to tell someone "don't cheat/steal." It should be a given. But it is good to discuss things. Example: such as "I don't like when you talk on the phone lots when we're out at dinner, it makes me feel ignored." That is being transparent with someone. If I can see how you would feel that makes me you feel ignored and I am sorry--I will not do that anymore." That is being accountable. Nothing wrong with those things.

It's interesting the woman you mentioned did not think you were "dating." Did you guys establish you were boyf/girlf? Maybe she thought you guys were just sleeping together? It happens.

It does sound like you have some generalizations about women:

_Accountability from a woman is another story, since it is never their fault. 

The issue here is that most modern women in our current society are doing things that are totally out of line and they either A) dont realize it (.0005% of the time) or B) realize it, but pretend they don't to have a built in alibi should they be called on it (all the rest of the time).

If a woman said she didn't allow boyfriends to treat her with any disrespect, or be disloyal or flirt with other women or she broke up with them immediately, she wouldn't be called jaded and bitter, she would be praised and cheered on by other women. When a man does it, we're just jaded losers who can't get a girl. _

Who said they are "jaded losers who can't get a girl?" Did I miss something in this thread?

At present time, I myself am "jaded" about relationships. But I know in the future I won't let my past hinder future relationships.

Still it's paramount to have good boundaries in place. I think everyone should do that. If someone doesn't jive with your wants/needs, cut them loose. It saves a lot of time and unnecessary BS.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ronin,

When you start a new job, the first thing they make you read are the company policies. Things that are not tolerated. This gives you a basis about what the rules are.

If they don't, and you, say, allow personal emails to your work email....and then get fired because HR then said...well, we shouldn't have to tell you not to have personal emails at work....how would this fly?

You need to state the rules, or they are not really rules, are they? If you didn't state The rules, then ALL your previous SO's should have gotten a pass...at least once. 

You are setting yourself up for failure each and every time. Why? Same as the above example...of course I'm going to get personal emails at work. They didn't say it was wrong. In today's Internet age, Facebook is a given. ALL women will talk to men on Facebook. That's how it's done now. Same as texting. If she was talking to men on Facebook before she met you, she's not going to know or think it's wrong. Because THATS how it's done in our instant communication age. When it get sexual....that's crossing the line. Same as sexting.

Your test of women is designed to fail by default, and it always will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> ^ Yeah I smiled at that one, too. :lol:
> 
> Ronin, you're right, you shouldn't have to tell someone "don't cheat/steal." It should be a given. But it is good to discuss things. Example: such as "I don't like when you talk on the phone lots when we're out at dinner, it makes me feel ignored." That is being transparent with someone. If I can see how you would feel that makes me you feel ignored and I am sorry--I will not do that anymore." That is being accountable. Nothing wrong with those things.
> 
> ...


No jellybean, she DID think we were dating until she revealed that she had been talking to another man on the phone and then it became "well... we never officially said we were dating". It was blatantly obvious that it was something her and her friend had come up with to use as an excuse. Its hard to explain in text, but trust me.. there was no misconception that we were just friends. She always harped on the fact that we had to be in a committed relationship before she would have sex and since we were having sex for 6 months at that point I don't accept her "explanation". 

Ronin


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Ronin,
> 
> When you start a new job, the first thing they make you read are the company policies. Things that are not tolerated. This gives you a basis about what the rules are.
> 
> ...


People may be misunderstanding what I mean by "red flag behavior" I'm not talking about idle conversation on facebook. I'm talking about sexual conversations, plans to meet, going out on dinner dates when she tells me shes with a female friend. That sort of thing. I don't care when a woman talks to another man during idle conversation, but when it becomes something that crosses the line then it needs to be dealt with. In my experiences facebook will always cross the line eventually, because that's the nature of it.

My test of women isn't designed to fail by default, my test is excellent. It is these women themselves who fail. Should I alter the test because they cant be honest or loyal? That's like lowering the entrance requirements of Harvard until its a community college. The degree and prestige will mean nothing anymore. No, ill keep testing until I find the one who can adequately pass it. See people fail to see that I'm not concerned with whether they pass or not. If they don't, they're out. However, when I find one that does pass, I can move forward with her.

Ronin


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> I will say, there is much truth in what you are saying, for it is not unknown that a woman, since primal times, lacking the physical leverage over the opposite sex, has instead at her disposal honed the sexual instincts of subtlety and diversion to depths not easily fathomed!
> 
> However, understand this, until you wrap your mind around the fact that sexually, a woman simply will NOT be responding like a man, and vice versa, frustration and mistrust concerning women will continue.
> 
> ...


I agree with much or all of your post. I pretty much strive to be the best man I can be, and expect women to be the best they can be. If they don't, I move on to the next one. I'm figuring if I date enough women, ill eventually find the right one, or ill have a hell of a fun time on the way there. Either way, I feel as though my choice leads to the best life experience for me, and that's why I continue to proceed like I do. Maybe ill meet a woman and something will change in me, but right now, this is working for me. 

I know people will say "but you're not married, so how can it be working" and to those people I say that marriage is not the endgame for everyone in a relationship. To have the type of relationship I want with the type of woman I want is the endgame. If I never find it, that's no problem because I'll still have a pile of money and a passport, and I can always find something entertaining to get into. 

Maybe when I get older ill think differently. This is a recent (maybe 3 yrs) change in me, so I'm still navigating without a map. I'm sure in a few years or maybe a few months ill realize my method isn't working so well and alter it to fit my circumstances.

Ronin


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I realize I can't type worth a damn ... I meant to write this before in my last post:

_Ronin, you're right, you shouldn't have to tell someone "don't cheat/steal." It should be a given. But it is good to discuss things. Example: such as *"I don't like when you talk on the phone lots when we're out at dinner, it makes me feel ignored." That is being transparent with someone. If your partner says "I can see how me talking on the phone out at dinner would make you feel ignored and I am sorry--I will not do that anymore." *That is being accountable. Nothing wrong with those things_.

Alpha, you make some reallly good points. I like your post a lot.

Ronin: I agree with you--marriage is not for everyone. If you dont want to do it, don't. Have you had long-term committed relationships w/ women before?


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I realize I can't type worth a damn ... I meant to write this before in my last post:
> 
> _Ronin, you're right, you shouldn't have to tell someone "don't cheat/steal." It should be a given. But it is good to discuss things. Example: such as *"I don't like when you talk on the phone lots when we're out at dinner, it makes me feel ignored." That is being transparent with someone. If your partner says "I can see how me talking on the phone out at dinner would make you feel ignored and I am sorry--I will not do that anymore." *That is being accountable. Nothing wrong with those things_.
> 
> ...


As far as talking on the phone at dinner, it makes me no difference. However, when shes talking to her ex boyfriend while we're on a date. Hell, she asked me out. Then she spends 25 mins on the phone chatting. If they were that friendly she should have went with him. Yeah that offended me and she should have known better. I never spoke to her again. She was so smug about it, as if she was so hot that I would be ok with her being at dinner with me while she was chatting with her ex. It was early on in the relationship, and I played it cool and let her have her ego stroking fun and then I never replied to any of her attempts to contact me again. She called/texted me for two months, and I was already seeing another women for about... two months. See people will say "well what are you doing wrong that women treat you this way".. NOTHING... its just that so many of them are flawed due to our current society, that I constantly run into this, along with every other man I know. This isn't isolated, its everywhere. Only men willing to put up with it feel that it isn't a problem. If I am expected to be Superman, then they have to be Lois Lane. If not, they're out. Simple.

Ronin


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ronin said:


> People may be misunderstanding what I mean by "red flag behavior" I'm not talking about idle conversation on facebook. I'm talking about sexual conversations, plans to meet, going out on dinner dates when she tells me shes with a female friend. That sort of thing. I don't care when a woman talks to another man during idle conversation, but when it becomes something that crosses the line then it needs to be dealt with. In my experiences facebook will always cross the line eventually, because that's the nature of it.
> 
> My test of women isn't designed to fail by default, my test is excellent. It is these women themselves who fail. Should I alter the test because they cant be honest or loyal? That's like lowering the entrance requirements of Harvard until its a community college. The degree and prestige will mean nothing anymore. No, ill keep testing until I find the one who can adequately pass it. See people fail to see that I'm not concerned with whether they pass or not. If they don't, they're out. However, when I find one that does pass, I can move forward with her.
> 
> Ronin


Ok. This makes more sense. I was under the impression that you would dump someone for even idle chat on Facebook. And in today's social networking environment, that's always going to happen.

Now, one thing I will disagree upon is your attitude of men that let this happen. I will sat it again...once kids are involved, thought patterns are changed and men will often do the strangest things in the name of relationship survival to keep the family together. I did. But this does not make me less of a man. Somewhere along the way I turned into a nice guy, which brought about it's own problems, of course. One of them was forgetting my boundaries.

I had your attitude more so when I was just dating. I dumped women who put me on hold to talk to an ex (pre cell phone era, lol). Or even those women that bragged about thier exes to me a lot, like I was supposed to live up to a certain standard or something. I would run to the door faster than I possibly thought possible. I think at that stage of ones life, you do remember your boundaries a lot firmer. But once they start getting chipped away little by little in the family dynamic, then you start getting into trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Ronin,

I thank you for sharing your story. You make a lot of very good points. How can anyone love or respect a man that doesn't love and respect himself?

I once dated a girl that was shallow, manipulative, deceitful, and downright evil. How evil? She has done the following to other unfortunate men: Lied about being pregnant to get abortion money, married a guy but kept another on the side, both of whom she would cheat on, got caught shoplifting, caught chlamydia, lied about being engaged to a guy killed in a car wreck to garner sympathy, the list goes on.

Anyway, my dumb ass dated this girl for four years. I was such a doormat of a nice guy that there were no boundaries for my part. My family hated this girl and so I had an ugly relationship with them. I gave all that up only to be dumped suddenly. I was devastated. Over the next several months, as the pain began to ease, I realized how I'd allowed myself to be treated like sh!t. I set a hard list of boundaries for myself, and I enforced them with impunity. Any chick that committed even a slight transgression was gone.

Several years later, I was working a charity event in which my cousin's wife happened to be in attendance. She had a friend with her, a real cutie. My cousin's wife told me that her friend thought I was cute, and maybe I should talk to her. Then she paused, kinda looked at me meaningfully, and said, "Ya know, David, not all women are bad." I was totally caught off guard and perplexed by this comment. What the eff was that supposed to mean, anyway? And why would she just say it like that, unprompted?

Truthfully, I knew exactly what she was talking about, even as she was saying it. I had been so hurt by that girl all those years ago that the wounded little boy inside turned my boundaries into weapons, weapons that I could use to dismiss women just as easily as I had been dismissed. Vengeance had become an underlying objective, and apparently everyone else caught on: I had garnered a reputation as being a real dewsh bag toward women.

I came to realize that, though I'd learned a lot of really good life lessons from my relationship with that girl, I was also carrying around a lot of bitterness and resentment. I went to counseling to work through all that crap, and only then did I start having truly meaningful relationships with women again.

I'm not saying this is what you're doing, Ronin, just a precautionary tale. Don't let it consume you like it did me.


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Davelli0331 said:


> Ronin,
> 
> I thank you for sharing your story. You make a lot of very good points. How can anyone love or respect a man that doesn't love and respect himself?
> 
> ...


I appreciate you sharing your story, and I understand the feelings. Never considered vengence being my motive, but I suppose that component exists in my methods. I suppose ill take a harder look at myself and my interactions with women in the future. However, it's not me looking for a reason, it's them giving me ample and clear reason to decisively end all contact with them. There is such a large percentage of them who are doing these things that its almost a given that it will happen and I act decisively. I have pretty much resigned myself to the fact that ill live this way forever, and I have already prepared for it. To go back now would be hard for me, honestly. Not sure how it will play out, but I feel great, personally.

Ronin


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Now, one thing I will disagree upon is your attitude of men that let this happen. I will sat it again...once kids are involved, thought patterns are changed and men will often do the strangest things in the name of relationship survival to keep the family together. I did. But this does not make me less of a man. Somewhere along the way I turned into a nice guy, which brought about it's own problems, of course. One of them was forgetting my boundaries.


:iagree:

When kids arrive things can change. Some men can have as strong PATERNAL instincts and the maternal instinct is in women. You see that all the time on this site and other infidelity sites. You can see the incredible amount of abuse many men will take from the wayward wives in order to protect their children. It doesn't mean they are beta, but it does show how much of a protector they are towards their children in order to keep them from hurt. And yes, the wayward wives can and do capitalize on the paternal instinct that their husbands have.


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> When kids arrive things can change. Some men can have as strong PATERNAL instincts and the maternal instinct is in women. You see that all the time on this site and other infidelity sites. You can see the incredible amount of abuse many men will take from the wayward wives in order to protect their children. It doesn't mean they are beta, but it does show how much of a protector they are towards their children in order to keep them from hurt. And yes, the wayward wives can and do capitalize on the paternal instinct that their husbands have.


I have already made up my mind that I'm never going to have children. I have never had the desire to raise a child and after the horror stories I've witnessed I refuse to put myself into a situation that will have me at the mercy of some woman and the family courts.

Ronin


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ronin said:


> However, when shes talking to her ex boyfriend while we're on a date. Then she spends 25 mins on the phone chatting.


That wasn't what I was talking about. I was simply giving an example of transparency & accountabililty. In my example, it's about someone being on the phone while you're out at dinner, could be with a family member or co-worker dicussing work. I did not at all mean that conversation was about talking with an ex for 25 minutes. That is a totally different ballgame.


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> That wasn't what I was talking about. I was simply giving an example of transparency & accountabililty. In my example, it's about someone being on the phone while you're out at dinner, could be with a family member or co-worker dicussing work. I did not at all mean that conversation was about talking with an ex for 25 minutes. That is a totally different ballgame.


I'm really pretty easygoing about almost everything. The lack of respect it takes to have an AFFAIR (ea/pa makes no difference, same ending for me), is what irritates me. Ill never allow it. Outside of bringing another man into the relationship, I can pretty much get past anything. I don't mind if they're messy, or we argue occasionally or whatever else. As soon as another man is involved, I'm gone, 100%, and I encourage every man to do the same. 

When this current dynamic of consequence free cheating is gone from this society, people will realize they are playing a deadly game. If I had never gotten a speeding ticket (allowed to cheat, EA/PA whatever, and have my GF stay with me), I would drive 100MPH (have sex with random women) everywhere I could. I don't, even though I'm tempted to and have ample opportunities, because I know there is a consequence, and all it takes is one time to be driving that fast (having an affair) to get arrested and lose my license (end of the relationship). 

Women don't have those consequences in this society. The weakening of men and masculinity has been shown time and time again on this website. When she cheats, its because you didn't pay attention to her, or meet her needs. When you try to fix the marriage, you're being clingy, and weak. When you leave, you're a coward, and you didn't live up to your vows. Where are men to turn. What are men to do? There is no play left for strong men other than to move on to the next woman. 

NEVER ALLOW WOMEN TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER MEN AND CONTINUE TO BE IN YOUR LIFE, GENTLEMEN. MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE BY LEAVING. SHOW THEM THAT THEIR HEINOUS BEHAVIOR IS NOT OK AND ONLY AFTER IT BECOMES NORMAL FOR MEN TO WALK AWAY WILL WOMEN EITHER A) NOT HAVE EA/PA/FRIENDS/JUST A GUY FROM WORK/WHATEVER OR B) AT LEAST HAVE THE DECENCY TO BREAK UP WITH YOU SO YOU AREN'T STILL WASTING TIME WITH SOMEONE WHO'S PLANNING ON LEAVING WHILE THEY MONOPOLIZE YOUR TIME

Ronin


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## JD01 (Dec 13, 2012)

This is a great post and good on you for your attitude.. She treated you like dirt and you now know the chasing only pushed he further away however, overall you are the winner to have taken this experience and learned from it.


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