# Wife and prayer



## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

My wife, on a few occasions, has shared personal details about me, her, and our relationship to Men in her bible study class, church, and even religious acquaintances. She has also had some shared back with her such as one man's wife and he were having problems and she moved out of the bedroom. All of this is done under the guise of asking for prayers or praying for these men. I consider the details completely inappropriate with a man. I wouldn't be real crazy about my private life being divulged to a bunch of women under the same circumstances but wouldn't see it as inappropriate from a boundaries point of view. This was also not revealed to me until well after the incidences happened and took some prying to get.
What are your thoughts on this?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Do you mean in a group or one on one?

We go to church and belong to groups and we wouldn't share anything really personal about our marriage with them. In my ladies group we do occasionally have some sharing/prayer about troubled marriages but its not anything about intimacy. I believe that things like that should be talked about with someone of the same sex, if they must be talked about at all. Its probably more appropriate if there are serious marriage issues that they get MC.

If she is discussing intimacy with a man on her own, I would see that as a massive red flag and it needs to stop. There are many potential dangers there. If a man started telling me about his sex life or other personal details in his marriage, I would very quickly direct him to another man.
You need to ask her to stop.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Do you mean in a group or one on one?
> 
> We go to church and belong to groups and we wouldn't share anything really personal about our marriage with them. In my ladies group we do occasionally have some sharing/prayer about troubled marriages but its not anything about intimacy. I believe that things like that should be talked about with someone of the same sex, if they must be talked about at all. Its probably more appropriate if there are serious marriage issues that they get MC.
> 
> ...


 Yes, one on one

I don't believe she discussed anything about our intimacy( but the trickle truth game is strong with her) more about marital problems and some hard luck workwise I was having. He told her a story about a disagreement over a serious punishment for their daughter and the result was his wife moving out of the bedroom into the guest room. This happened 4 years ago and I'm just hearing about it now. He is also still in that group. she says she was uncomfortable with that convo and they never had any more that were that serious, but I'm having difficulty believing that. I have asked her to stop. We are just recently realizing due to her naivety her boundaries may have been a bit skewed.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Yes, one on one
> 
> I don't believe she discussed anything about our intimacy( but the trickle truth game is strong with her) more about marital problems and some hard luck workwise I was having. He told her a story about a disagreement over a serious punishment for their daughter and the result was his wife moving out of the bedroom into the guest room.


I wouldn't like that if my husband did it and I wouldn't discuss things like that with another man. Its so easy to get too close to someone of the opposite sex in that way when you start sharing personal things like that. She shouldn't be discussing your marriage issues with another man ever. I bet his wife would be none too happy either. :surprise:

Have you told her how you feel?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I wouldn't like that if my husband did it and I wouldn't discuss things like that with another man. Its so easy to get too close to someone of the opposite sex in that way when you start sharing personal things like that. She shouldn't be discussing your marriage issues with another man ever. I bet his wife would be none too happy either. :surprise:
> 
> Have you told her how you feel?


 I asked her how she thought his wife would feel.She said she's not sure, I said I expect she'd be pretty pissed at both of you. 

After he told her his tale of woe, my wife just said she was sorry for his situation and she would pray for him, so at least she didn't get drawn into a long conversation and says there were no other intense ones like that. She said it made her uncomfortable at the time, and really did after she saw him and his family recently. She can't remember what other conversations they had, but there were more. She also says she can't remember what she told him about me, but guesses it was about mood and lack of work at the time. I know it's been 4 years, but how do you forget **** like that. I have my doubts on the forgetfulness as well. 

Yes I told her how I feel. I couldn't have bottled it up if I tried.

I appreciate the feedback, Keep it coming. I needed to get it off my chest and see if I was overreacting or reading it wrong. I got a whole bunch of "we were in such a bad place, and you were so down" blameshift, like I always seem to get and I own some of it, but she tries to make it all my bad. She is also the queen of minimization so it's easy for me to attribute more to any action because often there is. I truly expect there is more to this it's just a matter of when I get informed.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Well if she felt that she needed to talk then why not go to a trusted female friend? Or why didnt she suggest some MC to you? Telling another man about her marriage issues was a really bad idea and this is how affairs start. 
If she has stopped doing this and recognises that it was a very bad idea, then you will really need to let it go and move on, but maybe talk about boundaries for the future. Why did this man go to her in the first place and not to a male friend? Did he go to her first or she to him?
Hopefully she has learnt from this but blaming you for going to this other man is wrong, she surely has female friends. 
Do you go to the church as well?


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

Have you told her that you are posting here? Is that not similar? Seems like you need to discuss and agree on some boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not.


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## concernedhub (Feb 15, 2018)

I’m in a similar boat buddy and know exactly how you feel.

Woman don’t realize us men are territorial and don’t like them getting close to other men.

Was your Wife defensive about this or is she understanding?

Mine is clueless on boundaries.


Rubix Cubed said:


> My wife, on a few occasions, has shared personal details about me, her, and our relationship to Men in her bible study class, church, and even religious acquaintances. She has also had some shared back with her such as one man's wife and he were having problems and she moved out of the bedroom. All of this is done under the guise of asking for prayers or praying for these men. I consider the details completely inappropriate with a man. I wouldn't be real crazy about my private life being divulged to a bunch of women under the same circumstances but wouldn't see it as inappropriate from a boundaries point of view. This was also not revealed to me until well after the incidences happened and took some prying to get.
> What are your thoughts on this?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

FalCod said:


> Have you told her that you are posting here? Is that not similar? Seems like you need to discuss and agree on some boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not.


This is generally an anonymous forum,nobody here knows @Rubix Cubed or his wife.
She was talking about private details of their personal life to a relative stranger who happened to be a man having marriage difficulties.Read this and other forums about the amount of affairs that happened purely because a man listened to a woman’s problems or vice versa.
I have had problems in my own relationship with this,my gf was telling personal details of our relationship to her friends and we canceled or wedding over it.As of now she has accepted that I will not tolerate this behavior again and it is a deal breaker for me.
I am not trying to be sexist here but this need for some women to share everything with their friends is one of the biggest problems in modern day marriages.All it takes is one drunk text or Facebook post and everyone knows all your private insecurities,fetishes and vanities.
Your private life needs to be just that,private.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I understand your angst but allow me to posit this thought. I feel your angst stems not so much from her interaction with this man but more so from other indicators of her awareness and understanding, trickle truthing for instance. If you were completely secure in her character the interaction with the other man either would not have happened or you would have known that she would not divulge sensitive information about your relationship. This really is about your trust in her judgement.

Setting boundaries is one way to try to control the situation but can you set a boundary for each and every situation that could occur? I have found that setting boundaries is treating a symptom, not the disease. The disease is her inability to grasp and fully understand the possible consequences of her actions and failing to thoroughly think it through. This is clearly evidenced by her response to your question regarding the other man's wife, she never even gave a thought to how she would be affected by their conversation. Therein lies your (and my) problem.

I have told my wife on more occasions than I can remember that the time to be sorry is BEFORE you say or do something that could cause pain or mistrust in another. The concept of saying "I'm sorry" after an incident is one which I have never understood. As cognizant beings (some of us) we are blessed, or cursed as the case may be, with the ability to reason out any event. In so doing we can then imagine the possible outcomes and decide to say or do the thing based on that thoughtful process. There are many for whom this is impossible. How many times have you heard someone ask "what were you thinking"? The simple answer is they were not thinking.

Now there is some debate as to whether or not this is purposeful or involuntary. I firmly believe that it is not something the person "chooses" to do but rather something they are incapable of doing for if we assign purpose to their actions then we must assume malice and deception. If they are aware of the resultant damage of their actions then they are choosing to harm another, perhaps several others, including some they claim to "love". So then they are either oblivious or they are sadistic.

I have struggled for many years with this dilemma and have come to believe, wholeheartedly, that it is simply beyond some, perhaps most, people's ability to fully and carefully reason out the consequences of their deeds. I have therefore spent countless hours discussing this with my wife and I seem to have made some slight progress in altering the way she "thinks". It is arduous and frustrating at times but I am nothing if not stubborn. I fear this may be your only recourse as well. I wish you good fortune and success.


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## concernedhub (Feb 15, 2018)

If my Wife was spending the effort to get advice and see the other side.

So long as it’s anonymous and no private message was going on id be totally ok with it.

Even if it did nothing to change her stance she’d at least get the other side view without it be personal.





FalCod said:


> Have you told her that you are posting here? Is that not similar? Seems like you need to discuss and agree on some boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not.


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## concernedhub (Feb 15, 2018)

I think people don’t see the damaged they do to their partner when they just think it’s innocent.


This is one of those talks that should be had before marriage so theres no misunderstandings or after the fact discussions as by then the damage is done.

If she is slow to share this information then that to me is telling him that she is afraid of his response to what she did.

Transparency is the key to trust and taking so Long to reveal this demonstrates a breach of trust.

I can’t imagine having such a discussion about a marital topic with anyone but my Wife and if I did reach out to someone to talk about it I’d be having that discussion with her as well it would definitely not be a secret. In reality it would never be with another woman unless she was a counselor or my doctor.

h


Diana7 said:


> Well if she felt that she needed to talk then why not go to a trusted female friend? Or why didnt she suggest some MC to you? Telling another man about her marriage issues was a really bad idea and this is how affairs start.
> If she has stopped doing this and recognises that it was a very bad idea, then you will really need to let it go and move on, but maybe talk about boundaries for the future. Why did this man go to her in the first place and not to a male friend? Did he go to her first or she to him?
> Hopefully she has learnt from this but blaming you for going to this other man is wrong, she surely has female friends.
> Do you go to the church as well?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

FalCod said:


> Have you told her that you are posting here? Is that not similar? Seems like you need to discuss and agree on some boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not.


 Considering this is a completely anonymous forum with ZERO physical presence or chance of continuing physical contact, I think your analogy pretty piss poor. Sorry, but I'm not in a mood for trifling **** stirring.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Considering this is a completely anonymous forum with ZERO physical presence or chance of continuing physical contact, I think your analogy pretty piss poor. Sorry, but I'm not in a mood for trifling **** stirring.


Personally, if this were happening to me, I wouldn't care whether it was in person or on the internet. The point is that people are sharing extremely intimate details of their relationships with someone outside their relationship, as opposed to dealing with it internally, with the person who's actually affected.

It _feels_ like a violation.

My ex-husband didn't go out into the world and have sex with tons of other women, but he was masterbating to online porn on a regular basis.

It was a violation of our relationship and our trust. He didn't come to me. He did what was easy and lazy.


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Considering this is a completely anonymous forum with ZERO physical presence or chance of continuing physical contact, I think your analogy pretty piss poor. Sorry, but I'm not in a mood for trifling **** stirring.





minimalME said:


> Personally, if this were happening to me, I wouldn't care whether it was in person or on the internet. The point is that people are sharing extremely intimate details of their relationships with someone outside their relationship, as opposed to dealing with it internally, with the person who's actually affected.
> 
> It _feels_ like a violation.
> 
> ...


This illustrates the point I was trying to make. She did something that she didn't think was wrong but you did. You followed by doing something that you didn't think was wrong, but some people (like minimalME) might. These things happen. In healthy relationships, the solution is to talk to your spouse about the the issue. Understand their viewpoint and seek to have your viewpoint understood. Then come to a mutual agreement on where your boundaries are. 

I'm not saying that you did something wrong by posting here. I'm also not saying that your wife did something wrong with what she said. They aren't strictly equivalent actions, but they both fall into a gray area that couples need to sort out together and for which there is no universal standard for what is or is not acceptable.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

How did this come out now, four years later? Or is this an ongoing issue between you two? Something that you found out about long ago and remains a problem?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Well if she felt that she needed to talk then why not go to a trusted female friend? Or why didnt she suggest some MC to you? Telling another man about her marriage issues was a really bad idea and this is how affairs start.
> If she has stopped doing this and recognises that it was a very bad idea, then you will really need to let it go and move on, but maybe talk about boundaries for the future. Why did this man go to her in the first place and not to a male friend? Did he go to her first or she to him?
> Hopefully she has learnt from this but blaming you for going to this other man is wrong, she surely has female friends.
> Do you go to the church as well?


 She has gone to women friends as well, apparently. Which makes me wonder more.
She says she realizes it was wrong NOW. I've asked her for the last 2+ years(2+ years ago there was a watershed moment with a bigger series of events that brought me here and got my wife and myself talking more about boundaries or lack of them in some cases) if there was anything she was keeping from me that she should tell me, the answer is always "No", but then this comes up. It seems to never end. The keeping it from me bothers me as much as the act/poor boundaries to let it happen.

I asked why he went to her with this and not another man, she didn't know. I have my ideas ... low hanging fruit, emotionally compromised, yada, yada ... "but he is a godly religious man who would never do something like that" ... Yeah, Nah.

I asked if she went to him first and what she said about me/us to him and she doesn't remember either one, but she is "praying on it." 

I do not go to church with her, but I am a Christian, just not over the top like her. I do not personally agree with the brick and mortar church premise. I am a baptized Christian, just not saved according to her, my thoughts on that are different and personal.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

FalCod said:


> This illustrates the point I was trying to make. She did something that she didn't think was wrong but you did. You followed by doing something that you didn't think was wrong, but some people (like minimalME) might. These things happen. In healthy relationships, the solution is to talk to your spouse about the the issue. Understand their viewpoint and seek to have your viewpoint understood. Then come to a mutual agreement on where your boundaries are.
> 
> I'm not saying that you did something wrong by posting here. I'm also not saying that your wife did something wrong with what she said. They aren't strictly equivalent actions, but they both fall into a gray area that couples need to sort out together and for which there is no universal standard for what is or is not acceptable.


 To answer your question directly yes she knows I post here and has read this thread.
so there is no issue on my end. I still see it as apples and oranges because I cannot reach out and hug, kiss or grope anyone here, and the way the posts are moderated an emotional affair with another poster is virtually impossible. I don't IM except with thread-specific questions to the OPs and don't think a single one of them has been female. So I see a BIG difference between the two.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@NoChoice 

Thank you NoChoice ( and everyone for that matter) for posting. Your posts always connect with me in a straightforward, precise way, which makes you one of my favorite posters here, and you nailed exactly how I feel/felt about our ongoing struggle. My wordsmith abilities could never let me get it up here that concisely though.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks to all of you for your posts they mean more than you can know. They are helpful and are all being contemplated and absorbed.




alte Dame said:


> How did this come out now, four years later? Or is this an ongoing issue between you two? Something that you found out about long ago and remains a problem?


 Transparency has been an ongoing issue, and started being addressed about 2 1/2 years ago when some other events peeled back a load of layers and it is an ongoing discussion that I thought we had just about gotten where we needed to be. 

Yesterday, She made a comment about a guy I met who she knew through brief business contact (think courier, that brief). Didn't come up with him when I met him that they even knew each other, but she knew he was a praying man and had asked him to pray for me at some point in the past. She told me about this after I'd just happened to mention meeting him. She had always made a big effort to run out and get packages from the couriers and I found that odd. Now I guess I get it. So she had asked this guy to pray for me whom I didn't know then later met. I told her I was not comfortable with her divulging my life's details to complete strangers. We had a pretty long discussion about it and she said she saw my point. I asked her if there were any other males she was drawn to to discuss personal things and ask for prayer. She said No, then later brought up the guy's name w/ the wife problems. I noted it and we went on about our day. After she finished dinner (I was still eating) she became very solemn and said she had to apologize for telling other people our business then went on to tell me the story in the original post which happened in 2014. That's how it came up. She never recognized that telling other men our/my business was completely inappropriate. Up until 2 1/2 years ago she didn't even grasp the concept of a predator/player type and was clueless of the signs. She is getting better about it but it comes out as trickle truthing with the excuse that she didn't know better then, but does now.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Yes, one on one





Rubix Cubed said:


> He told her a story about a disagreement over a serious punishment for their daughter and the result was his wife moving out of the bedroom into the guest room.


 He just told your wife that his marriage is in serious trouble, and that his wife is not meeting his sexual or intimacy needs, with the wife being the bad guy for being the one that moved out, and him being the good church going guy. It is the type of conversation that a cheater has with a potential cheating prospect. Your wife’s response would dictate where he woud take it from there. Your wife did not tell you right away because she knew that you would be upset, and she wanted to enjoy the attention without worry that you would shut it down. Not saying that it went farther than just attention, but even getting attention is fun. All done with the plausible deniability allowed to both your wife and the other man, because it was in church.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> He just told your wife that his marriage is in serious trouble, and that his wife is not meeting his sexual or intimacy needs, with the wife being the bad guy for being the one that moved out, and him being the good church going guy. It is the type of conversation that a cheater has with a potential cheating prospect. Your wife’s response would dictate where he woud take it from there. Your wife did not tell you right away because she knew that you would be upset, and she wanted to enjoy the attention without worry that you would shut it down. Not saying that it went farther than just attention, but even getting attention is fun. All done with the plausible deniability allowed to both your wife and the other man, because it was in church.


*^BINGO!^* 
And this is how my suspicious mind evaluated it and told her so. Amazingly she rarely takes my observations for much worth until someone else points out the same thing (and then they usually get the credit for it  ).


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To answer your question directly yes she knows I post here and has read this thread.
> so there is no issue on my end. I still see it as apples and oranges because I cannot reach out and hug, kiss or grope anyone here, and the way the posts are moderated an emotional affair with another poster is virtually impossible. I don't IM except with thread-specific questions to the OPs and don't think a single one of them has been female. So I see a BIG difference between the two.


 You left out that it is anonymous. Which is a very big difference.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TRy said:


> He just told your wife that his marriage is in serious trouble, and that his wife is not meeting his sexual or intimacy needs, with the wife being the bad guy for being the one that moved out, and him being the good church going guy. It is the type of conversation that a cheater has with a potential cheating prospect. Your wife’s response would dictate where he woud take it from there. Your wife did not tell you right away because she knew that you would be upset, and she wanted to enjoy the attention without worry that you would shut it down. Not saying that it went farther than just attention, but even getting attention is fun. All done with the plausible deniability allowed to both your wife and the other man, because it was in church.


THIS^^^^^^

As you know, I am a Christian person, and I'm acutely aware of how easily very small lines can be crossed, even by people who call themselves "christians"--that in and of itself does not change that a human is a human! What's being done here is really the man phishing to see if your wife will take the bait. She took the bait. 

Here's my simple rule, and it makes all this "did s/he cross a line" fairly easy to see: would you do or say that in front of your partner or spouse? If not, then you should be talking about it TO YOUR SPOUSE. And if you need spiritual support, encouragement, or teaching, you go to a wise mentor of your same gender--someone who has demonstrated in their lives the qualities you want help with in YOURSELF--and you work with that one, wise mentor. If you have not even spoken to your spouse about whatever the issue is...that's where you have to start. 
@Rubix Cubed I believe your instincts are spot on. Talking like that, about those kinds of topics, with members of the opposite sex is just using "prayer" as a cover to gossip.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To answer your question directly yes she knows I post here and has read this thread.
> so there is no issue on my end.* I still see it as apples and oranges because I cannot reach out* and hug, kiss or grope anyone here, and the way the posts are moderated an emotional affair with another poster is virtually impossible. I don't IM except with thread-specific questions to the OPs and don't think a single one of them has been female. So I see a BIG difference between the two.


But you are reaching out. That's the thing. The energy (the thoughts, the time, the effort) that it takes to seek out conversation/advice from others could be spent on/with your spouse.

And I understand that that's a two way street, and both have to be willing. Just saying.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

minimalME said:


> But you are reaching out. That's the thing. The energy (the thoughts, the time, the effort) that it takes to seek out conversation/advice from others could be spent on/with your spouse.
> 
> And I understand that that's a two way street, and both have to be willing. Just saying.


 "And I understand that that's a two-way street, and both have to be willing." 
I am willing and I'm having to drive the train and do all the work to get her to the point that she understands and is willing. I think we are getting there if it doesn't kill me first with the TT and strange excuses like not knowing that sharing my personal info w/ another man is inappropriate and that not telling someone something is a lie of omission. Stuff that I thought was basic knowledge like right and wrong, good and bad.

I meant physically reach out to create a physical bond IRL. I can't see how a BOND can be formed here anymore than having people that's posts you agree with and give good advice vs. those who don't.
Me being here getting advice has probably saved my marriage from divorce and has certainly made me more receptive to the problems we face and the solutions to those problems. As I stated she knows I'm on here, has read this thread, and has no problem with that. Maybe misperceptions originally , but that was discussed and resolved.
Me being here *physically* has no more bearing in real life than me being a tank commander because I'm playing Game of War.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I asked her how she thought his wife would feel.She said she's not sure, I said I expect she'd be pretty pissed at both of you.





Rubix Cubed said:


> I got a whole bunch of "we were in such a bad place, and you were so down" blameshift, like I always seem to get and I own some of it, but she tries to make it all my bad. She is also the queen of minimization so it's easy for me to attribute more to any action because often there is. I truly expect there is more to this it's just a matter of when I get informed.


 Your wife claiming that “she’s not sure” how the other man’s wife would feel about him sharing private intimate information about the state of their marriage and sex life with another woman in one on one, is dishonest. Of course she knows, she just does not want to admit it. It is all part of the minimization process, done so she does not have to take responsibility for her actions. It is a delay tactic that make you waste so much time and energy trying to get her to admit to the basic facts, that you never get to point of it becoming a meaning conversation that actually resolved the issue.

BTW, the fact your wife told you that “we were in such a bad place, and you were so down", and that she was blames shifting on to you for doing bad things, means that the other man chose wisely when he picked you wife, as he was picking a women at a vulnerable time in her marriage. Although she claims not to remember what she told him about you and your marriage, you know that she probably shared some of this negative information with him as part of a balance for him sharing such information with her. With both of them saying such things as “I would never do that if you were my spouse”. These are the type of preliminary conversations people usually need to have prior to rationalizing their cheating. I do not claim to know how far it went, or that it went anywhere at all, but at some level she knew what was going on and appreciated the attention.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> "And I understand that that's a two-way street, and both have to be willing."
> I am willing and I'm having to drive the train and do all the work to get her to the point that she understands and is willing. I think we are getting there if it doesn't kill me first with the TT and strange excuses like not knowing that sharing my personal info w/ another man is inappropriate and that not telling someone something is a lie of omission. Stuff that I thought was basic knowledge like right and wrong, good and bad.
> 
> I meant physically reach out to create a physical bond IRL. I can't see how a BOND can be formed here anymore than having people that's posts you agree with and give good advice vs. those who don't.
> ...


The problems with forums like tam can be explained by the posts by minimalme.Almost every person posting agrees it is inappropriate for your wife to be discussing personal details of your life with strangers,particularly strangers who are ready and willing to go further than your wife may have envisioned when she started talking to him.
Unfortunately if your wife as you say reads your posts she can jump on mimimalme’s posts and say that opinions differ so what she did wasn’t so wrong after all.I’m not saying she would,just that she could.You have allready said that trickle truth is a problem so it’s not a huge leap to say she could gaslight you to brush this incident under the carpet.
You need to agree on boundaries with your wife because she comes across as extremely naive and actually may be giving some men the impression that she is available.Please don’t take offense at what I said but when it comes to players I have seen some experts in action and churches are like singles bars to some guys.


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## concernedhub (Feb 15, 2018)

I think if a person is out seeking advice in most cases they are the ones trying to do the right thing.

In my case a forum like TAM would be excellent for my case but she’s not the type to be introspective


minimalME said:


> Rubix Cubed said:
> 
> 
> > To answer your question directly yes she knows I post here and has read this thread.
> ...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> . I wouldn't be real crazy about my private life being divulged to a bunch of women under the same circumstances but wouldn't see it as inappropriate from a boundaries point of view.


If my wife shared, with a bunch of other women, I was dynamite in the sack and could do things for her previous men could never do, I think I may not mind it all that much.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> The problems with forums like tam can be explained by the posts by minimalme.Almost every person posting agrees it is inappropriate for your wife to be discussing personal details of your life with strangers,particularly strangers who are ready and willing to go further than your wife may have envisioned when she started talking to him.
> Unfortunately if your wife as you say reads your posts she can jump on mimimalme’s posts and say that opinions differ so what she did wasn’t so wrong after all.I’m not saying she would,just that she could.You have allready said that trickle truth is a problem so it’s not a huge leap to say she could gaslight you to brush this incident under the carpet.
> You need to agree on boundaries with your wife because she comes across as extremely naive and actually may be giving some men the impression that she is available.Please don’t take offense at what I said but when it comes to players I have seen some experts in action and churches are like singles bars to some guys.


I don't understand why she would use posts like mine as justification? I'm saying that both her face to face behavior and his online behavior could _potentially_ cause issues. 

And not the two of them specifically, but generally. 

RC seems to be saying (and I could be totally wrong) that posting here has no more influence on his commitment to his wife than playing a video game. That to me is more like apples and oranges. 

It may or may result in bonding, but it definitely influences behavior and choices:

_Me being here getting advice has probably saved my marriage from divorce and has certainly made me more receptive to the problems we face and the solutions to those problems._

So for RC, the forum has been beneficial, and his wife knows all about it. That's great.

For other people in different situations, _it's possible_ to have the opposite outcome.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

concernedhub said:


> I think if a person is out seeking advice in most cases they are the ones trying to do the right thing.
> 
> In my case a forum like TAM would be excellent for my case but she’s not the type to be introspective


I understand. 

My former SIL had an affair with her therapist while she was sorting out her marital difficulties. 

It just depends on the people involved.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> She has gone to women friends as well, apparently. Which makes me wonder more.
> She says she realizes it was wrong NOW. I've asked her for the last 2+ years(2+ years ago there was a bigger series of events that brought me here and got my wife and myself talking more about boundaries or lack of them in some cases) if there was anything she was keeping from me that she should tell me, the answer is always "No", but then this comes up. It seems to never end. The keeping it from me bothers me as much as the act/poor boundaries to let it happen.
> 
> I asked why he went to her with this and not another man, she didn't know. I have my ideas ... low hanging fruit, emotionally compromised, yada, yada ... "but he is a godly religious man who would never do something like that" ... Yeah, Nah.
> ...


Opening up and praying about all sources of friction, pain, discourse in the day-to-day life of friends and acquaintances is likely to be a normal, cultural thing for them. 
It is a means of vicarious entertainment. Creating their own script, their own soap opera at church. Sometimes at the expense of those talked about and not present.
This is human nature at it's, uh, commonest.

When you hear about other folk's woes, yours' tend to be less onerous.

*They have to talk about 'something' at church. What better than sex, relationships, cheating, intimacy, financial problems. All under the guise of Church counseling and religious guidance.*
To promote religious camaraderie and friendship.

This is not unique to church get togethers, but common to all normal gatherings of people.
Men and women like to gossip. Again, creating their own real-time soap operas, based on the contributed 'facts' of each member.

If you can gossip and pray over it, then all is good.

The other thing referencing your wife. She likely feels somewhat 'guilty', left out, not participating, not a contributing member if she brings nothing to the table.
Brings her personal tidbits to the table, spreading them out for everyone to see, to touch, to comment on. 

Heck, she has problems, too. She is being open with her marital issues. Therefore she is allowed to hear about others problems. She is not selfishly hiding hers from view.
This is normal human behavior. Having a desire to 'fit in' with a group. Be accepted by the group. 

Yes, when one women says that my husband is doing this and that, another women will say, "Yeah, my does that, too". "Or, my wife is unreasonable, also".

We call this Peer Pressure. Uh, huh..


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> Your wife claiming that “she’s not sure” how the other man’s wife would feel about him sharing private intimate information about the state of their marriage and sex life with another woman in one on one, is dishonest. Of course she knows, she just does not want to admit it. It is all part of the minimization process, done so she does not have to take responsibility for her actions. It is a delay tactic that make you waste so much time and energy trying to get her to admit to the basic facts, that you never get to point of it becoming a meaning conversation that actually resolved the issue.
> 
> BTW, the fact your wife told you that “we were in such a bad place, and you were so down", and that she was blames shifting on to you for doing bad things, means that the other man chose wisely when he picked you wife, as he was picking a women at a vulnerable time in her marriage. Although she claims not to remember what she told him about you and your marriage, you know that she probably shared some of this negative information with him as part of a balance for him sharing such information with her. With both of them saying such things as “I would never do that if you were my spouse”. These are the type of preliminary conversations people usually need to have prior to rationalizing their cheating. I do not claim to know how far it went, or that it went anywhere at all, but at some level she knew what was going on and appreciated the attention.


I'm right with you and addressed most all of this with her.
I'm not sure if she was dishonest with her "church guy's wife knowing" as much as she never bothered to contemplate it much (just a flashing thought) before or after until asked.
"Bad Place blameshifting:" I will admit I was not the nicest guy, I could on occasion be a verbal abusive **** which generally stemmed from resentment of her not being transparent with me, which made me more suspicious and I expressed that resentment inappropriately. This is not an excuse for my behavior ,just an acknowledgment and that I own it. It is her excuse regularly for any reason she didn't be honest with me or acted inappropriately. 
Player/predator: I pointed this out with the low hanging fruit analogy and have in the past in other instances where it was a possibility. She had to share something bad, she was asking the guy to pray for her/me, that seems obvious to me, but she can't remember. :banghead:



Andy1001 said:


> The problems with forums like tam can be explained by the posts by minimalme.Almost every person posting agrees it is inappropriate for your wife to be discussing personal details of your life with strangers,particularly strangers who are ready and willing to go further than your wife may have envisioned when she started talking to him.
> Unfortunately if your wife as you say reads your posts she can jump on mimimalme’s posts and say that opinions differ so what she did wasn’t so wrong after all.I’m not saying she would,just that she could.You have allready said that trickle truth is a problem so it’s not a huge leap to say she could gaslight you to brush this incident under the carpet.
> *You need to agree on boundaries with your wife because she comes across as extremely naive and actually may be giving some men the impression that she is available.Please don’t take offense at what I said but when it comes to players I have seen some experts in action and churches are like singles bars to some guys.*


 Absolutely no offense taken and you are right. The crazy thing is we've been together 30 years this summer and I didn't really pick-up on these naivety red flags completely until 2 1/2 years ago, before that I was "jealous" (her words, mine is 'suspicious') and had a gut feeling about co-workers and bosses for the last 15 years (when she took her job in an alpha male environment) but it was always dismissed as me being jealous and ridiculous. I don't believe anything cheating wise happened then but I do know that I wasn't informed or even attempted to be understood when it happened just dismissed. we have made a lot of headway with the naivety and boundaries, but her goto is I'm sorry that happened then but it would never happen now. I see that as progress, but her remembering these things months and years later and bringing them to my attention just restarts the clock. That's what's killing me. I can't wrap my head around how you can forget, what to me, is pivotal stuff like that. I'm not wired that way.If I privately told a woman personal details about my wife I would remember every word and everything about the situation, the when, where, and how. It's also like @NoChoice said you can't make a boundary for every specific (and it would have to be specific with her) situation that could possibly arise. At some point, she has to be able to make the right decision on her own. As far as big picture stuff a.k.a. a PA, I think I'm reasonably safe, but vigilant.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> The crazy thing is we've been together 30 years this summer and I didn't really pick-up on these naivety red flags completely until 2 1/2 years ago, before that I was "jealous" (her words, mine is 'suspicious') and had a gut feeling about co-workers and bosses for the last 15 years (when she took her job in an alpha male environment) but it was always dismissed as me being jealous and ridiculous.


 So for 30 years it was all just her being naive, and her not knowing the intentions of these other men that consistently misinterpreted her interactions with them as her being available to their inappropriate behavior. Who is really the naive one here, you or your wife?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> If my wife shared, with a bunch of other women, I was dynamite in the sack and could do things for her previous men could never do, I think I may not mind it all that much.


What if another woman told your wife this,would she be as pleased to hear it as you would be.🤐


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> If my wife shared, with a bunch of other women, I was dynamite in the sack and could do things for her previous men could never do, I think I may not mind it all that much.


 If only it were true LOL!!!


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@SunCMars

Those are interesting points and I believe they apply to her sharing with other women. I personally don't like my personal business being shared in too much detail. I'm all about being prayed for, that's awesome, but she has stated that no reason needs to be given to ask for prayers so why divulge anything?
On that note I do not want my wife divulging any of our business to another man ... period ...hard stop.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> So for 30 years it was all just her being naive, and her not knowing the intentions of these other men that consistently misinterpreted her interactions with them as her being available to their inappropriate behavior. Who is really the naive one here, you or your wife?


 Good question. I saw no signs of it until we moved back to her hometown 18 years ago, and I expressed that my concerns started 15 years ago but was gaslighted into thinking I was in the wrong.
As far as other men, their intentions may be completely harmless but the fact that they are even an issue is where I have a problem.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Something occurred to me. Where did these private chats take place and where was his wife? Assuming she also goes to church.

I agree with you, coming here where you are anonymous is completely different from meeting alone with a member of the opposite sex discussing personal issues.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Something occurred to me. Where did these private chats take place and where was his wife? Assuming she also goes to church.
> 
> I agree with you, coming here where you are anonymous is completely different from meeting alone with a member of the opposite sex discussing personal issues.


 They were at an evening bible study group at a residential house where they always have it. She said their conversation was during a snack break. His wife was NOT there, and apparently never is.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Are you asking for strangers to pray for you or is your wife taking it upon herself to ask for prayers on your behalf? The first would sit fine with me as long as no details were provided. The second - would seem presumptive to me and would seem like a bid for attention. Are there other women in this prayer group?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> They were at an evening bible study group at a residential house where they always have it. She said their conversation was during a snack break.


 As an FYI, these types of bible study groups are often used by people as a way to meet members of the opposite sex that they prefer to meetings at bars and online. It is often one of the many reasons church’s have such groups. I am saying this because it can be a conducive environment to establishing such relationships. 

A married woman going off to the side with another man to discuss one on one his bad guy wife moving out of the martial bedroom is not what the church had in mind for such a bible group, but two single members of the opposite sex going off to the side to have intimate conversations that could lead to a romantic relationship is.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Are you asking for strangers to pray for you or is your wife taking it upon herself to ask for prayers on your behalf? The first would sit fine with me as long as no details were provided. The second - would seem presumptive to me and would seem like a bid for attention. Are there other women in this prayer group?


 The second.
Yes, I think it is mostly women with a few couples ... and then this guy who is married and who's wife apparently does not go to the bible study, and two more single guys, but a boatload of women.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> The second.
> Yes, I think it is mostly women with a few couples ... and then this guy, who's wife apparently does not go to the bible study.


 The other man’s wife “apparently does not go to the Bible study”, and neither do you. Why don’t you plan to go at the very last minute and see how your wife reacts to this, as well as see how she introduces you around (or not) to the other men. It has been a long time so the specific other man may no longer be in the picture, but if she is a creature of habit, there may be a new one that is.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

We have a very simple rule: No discussing any issues in our relationship with OS unless it is a sibling. 

So insanely simple, it works.

To do anything else would be a deliberate inviting of drama into our lives. I love my husband, not drama.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> They were at an evening bible study group at a residential house where they always have it. She said their conversation was during a snack break. His wife was NOT there, and apparently never is.


So there were other people there as well.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> The other man’s wife “apparently does not go to the Bible study”, and neither do you. Why don’t you plan to go at the very last minute and see how your wife reacts to this, as well as see how she introduces you around (or not) to the other men. It has been a long time so the specific other man may no longer be in the picture, but if she is a creature of habit, there may be a new one that is.


 I know the man. I do business with him.Make that I've done business with him
I've never been so the shock of me being there would ruin any facial expression judgements I could take as clues. The guy is just starting class again. I told her no contact, and if there is any I need to know about it poste haste.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TRy said:


> As an FYI, these types of bible study groups are often used by people as a way to meet members of the opposite sex that they prefer to meetings at bars and online. It is often one of the many reasons church’s have such groups. I am saying this because it can be a conducive environment to establishing such relationships.
> 
> A married woman going off to the side with another man to discuss one on one his bad guy wife moving out of the martial bedroom is not what the church had in mind for such a bible group, but two single members of the opposite sex going off to the side to have intimate conversations that could lead to a romantic relationship is.


I have been to many many groups like this and they were never used as any sort of dating group. They are also definitely not run for that purpose. They are for Bible study/discussion/fellowship/support. 
Some churches have singles social groups and sometimes people will meet their spouses there.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> So there were other people there as well.


Yes, In the house but not in on the conversation or within earshot.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

concernedhub said:


> I’m in a similar boat buddy and know exactly how you feel.
> 
> Woman don’t realize us men are territorial and don’t like them getting close to other men.
> 
> ...


 She can flip between defensiveness and understanding. For the most part understanding but not telling me what I need to know because she "can't remember" what she has told him.

I read your thread and I'm probably not in the best position to give advice, but here's my two cents anyway. At only a year and a half in with her poor boundaries and control accusations, I can't imagine her changing. I think you'd be best served to remove yourself from your marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Yes, In the house but not in on the conversation or within earshot.


OK, clearly the houses they have are far far bigger than the ones we have here in the UK. :surprise:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> We have a very simple rule: No discussing any issues in our relationship with OS unless it is a sibling.
> 
> So insanely simple, it works.
> 
> To do anything else would be a deliberate inviting of drama into our lives. I love my husband, not drama.


I wouldn't even share very personal stuff with a sibling. My husband's ex went round telling lots of people about their issues, to get them on her 'side' I think, and he told no one, that's the sort of man he is. He doesn't worry what people think of him and he didn't think it was appropriate to tell others their private stuff. 

The only exception I may make is if we saw a MC.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I know the man. I do business with him.Make that I've done business with him
> I've never been so the shock of me being there would ruin any facial expression judgements I could take as clues. The guy is just starting class again. I told her no contact, and if there is any I need to know about it poste haste.


How about you ask her to start a new group if he is going back there? I think that's what I would do in that situation. Most churches have several home groups and many have women's groups.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I know the man. I do business with him.Make that I've done business with him
> I've never been so the shock of me being there would ruin any facial expression judgements I could take as clues. The guy is just starting class again. I told her no contact, and if there is any I need to know about it poste haste.


Has she given you any reason as to why she suddenly remembered this talk. I wonder is it because the guy is coming back to the group and she has a guilty conscience. Or is she preparing you for more talking with him.


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> She can flip between defensiveness and understanding. For the most part understanding but not telling me what I need to know because she "can't remember" what she has told him.
> 
> I read your thread and I'm probably not in the best position to give advice, but here's my two cents anyway. At only a year and a half in with her poor boundaries and control accusations, I can't imagine her changing. I think you'd be best served to remove yourself from your marriage.


Not to be difficult, but honestly I think you’re in the same boat. She sounds like a cheater big-time I wouldn’t doubt it. For the last 15 years been she’s been gaslighting you. The whole reason why you Because you that this could be true.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Robbie1234 said:


> Has she given you any reason as to why she suddenly remembered this talk. I wonder is it because the guy is coming back to the group and she has a guilty conscience. Or is she preparing you for more talking with him.


 I explained a bit of it upthread, but basically she had no comprehension that that was inappropriate behavior until a long series of conversation we had 2 1/2 years ago over some other stuff. You would think she would have told me then (2 1/2 years ago) if she didn't at the time of the occurrence. 
She said she had forgotten( say compartmentalize) it until she saw he and his family at a retirement gathering 2 or so weeks ago and that she had a bad feeling in the pit of her stomach about it and knew it was wrong. she the kept it to herself for those 2 or so weeks until the conversation that was described near the beginning of the thread.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I explained a bit of it upthread, but basically she had no comprehension that that was inappropriate behavior until a long series of conversation we had 2 1/2 years ago over some other stuff. You would think she would have told me then (2 1/2 years ago) if she didn't at the time of the occurrence.
> She said she had forgotten( say compartmentalize) it until she saw he and his family at a retirement gathering 2 or so weeks ago and that she had a bad feeling in the pit of her stomach about it and knew it was wrong. she the kept it to herself for those 2 or so weeks until the conversation that was described near the beginning of the thread.


To be honest I think that God is working in her about this, and that seeing him again made her want to confess to you what she did. She could have just kept quiet about it and not said anything.

Now that I know their conversations took place in a house with lots of others around and not somewhere alone together, I don't see this as quite so serious. Ok I don't think they should have talked about personal issues together, and they were really pushing the boundaries, but she now sees that it was wrong and that's why she told you. I think that is encouraging. 

Being that seeing him made her confess, it may be best if she starts at a different group if he is going back. Do you know why he stopped going 2 years ago? It did occur to me that his wife may have found out and been annoyed about it and asked him to stop going.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Sparta said:


> Not to be difficult, but honestly I think you’re in the same boat. She sounds like a cheater big-time I wouldn’t doubt it. For the last 15 years been she’s been gaslighting you. The whole reason why you Because you that this could be true.


 You very may well be right per my disclaimer in my post, but if she has, she has done it with the clinical precision and stealthiness of a CIA agent and that is about as far from her character that you can get. I have checked everything possible to check for over 2 years (Thanks TAM) with no hits or blips. That being said, If I was where I am now after a year and a half of marriage I would be gone. The fact that we have been together the majority of our lives warrants working as hard as possible to save it. At the moment I'm working EXTREMELY hard to get us back on track and she is coming around slowly. She is making the changes she needs to make but is severely lacking in the communication department. I, on the other hand, recognized my faults and corrected the detrimental ones such as verbal abusiveness. Again Thanks to TAM and a lot of research.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Being that seeing him made her confess, it may be best if she starts at a different group if he is going back. Do you know why he stopped going 2 years ago? It did occur to me that his wife may have found out and been annoyed about it and asked him to stop going.


I'm not sure a new group is really an option, also not sure why he quit. My wife volunteered to stop going which makes me feel bad because it has been a very important part of her life for over 10 years. 
We are sorting through all of that now. I actually sent the guy an email saying I knew what had happened and asked what was said to him about me. I do business with him and put it in a reply to a business email. My wife agreed to no contact.I'm trying to find the line that needs to be walked on this without going overboard. What she has admitted to is one inappropriate conversation with the TOO much detail coming from him. It's not a full blown PA or EA unless they almost never communicated outside of class. I've seen one email. So I'm not sure at what level to try to handle all of this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I'm not sure a new group is really an option, also not sure why he quit. My wife volunteered to stop going which makes me feel bad because it has been a very important part of her life for over 10 years.
> We are sorting through all of that now. I actually sent the guy an email saying I knew what had happened and asked what was said to him about me. I do business with him and put it in a reply to a business email. My wife agreed to no contact.I'm trying to find the line that needs to be walked on this without going overboard. What she has admitted to is one inappropriate conversation with the TOO much detail coming from him. It's not a full blown PA or EA unless they almost never communicated outside of class. I've seen one email. So I'm not sure at what level to try to handle all of this.


Its very hard to have no contact if they are in a home group together. You just all sit together in a living room and it would look odd if she refused to talk to him. 
Not sure why she cant change groups. People often do that in my church.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I think it’s a natural reaction while in the middle of a poor choice to want to feign that which we do not wish to address… whether it be something we have crossed inappropriately or are about to be in a position to cross. 

I say in the middle because while it is happening, we all know that little voice that says “you shouldn’t be here” yet still we place ourselves there because our desires to that will simply override our mindful self that says “there is no free pleasure (attention), what is the true cost?”.

Yet still we justify it somehow.

If you move too close to the edge you risk falling off… matters not what.

What we also fail to recognize is that pretending we haven’t got too close when we have already tumbled off and are in full flight to the bottom… flapping your arms in mid decent will not reduce the fall... unwise to dance on the edge because one slip and it's done.

Fortunately, life differs than true gravity unless we choose to hurt everything around us and plummet without recourse, life presents us more with an ability to stop in mid fall and do no more harm to the harm already done, but that takes an honest look at where we are and if we can put aside our fear and be open, but too often that is also guised as protecting another when all we are wanting to do is protect ourselves against other’s disapproval or anger.

After 30 years of marriage, your wife probably knows which side of you reacts and what invokes it… is it possible her fear of this judgement (placed from poor boundaries or not) is the root of her minimizing or “trickle-truthing”? Communication decreases because reaction increases so keep working on removing that which closes her off to minimize or trickle-truth information important to you and perhaps will build a better bond with her in humility in Christ.

I have to admit I found the courier story in #20 curious… and odd that she would share the personal you with someone that should be a superficial acquaintance. Since you too are Christian and there are all these prayers centered around you, I would ask her to no longer ask people to pray for you but to pray with you… no matter where.

Let her know that the prayers are important to you too and anytime she wants to pass that strength of hope and comfort to you, to plan a time to include you… let your presence receive the strength where it should be, in your presence. 

**When my marriage was in the beginning weeks of disassembly, my Christian friends did not say they would pray for me, they asked to pray with me and even though it was not my spiritual path, I bowed my head with them as they asked God to strengthen and keep things kind through the hurdles to come -they knew me and what was important to me even through I never shared a service one with them.

This also requires you to give as well, effort on your part to be humble and open to receive the grace that is meant to be channeled to you in the place of the prayer. This accomplishes two things… it places you in the best possible place to receive the blessing and it shows strength in character that you are not too proud and can face your troubles without fear, or at least too much to be stuck and not moving forward. 

It also lets them hear from you directly what you need direct prayers for, not someone speaking for you which can place a perception of weakness and cause unmindful thoughts from the group, or one in the group.

Presence may also keep the wolves in sheeps clothing at bay… although it always surprises me that men and women of faith would use faith as an exploitive means as being a true believe would give you insight to the wrath that will come to you for doing so.

I also wonder as another poster did about her need to be part of the participating portion of this prayer group… that she feels she too must offer her “dues” to be an active part of the group. Does she feel like she has to invest like this in other areas? She doesn’t have to divulge a thing more than “Please pray for my husband who is struggling”… no details required.

Do you think it of value to drop the “what was said to him then”, especially since no-contact has been agreed to? Perhaps stay off the fine line of relying on “memory lane” and keep it focused on “in the present” lane, much easier going forward in the light than trying to retrace the steps where you came from in the dark.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@Emerging Buddhist , 

Thank you for your wise input. It's a lot to absorb so I will comment on the end, re: fine line. 
I would like to let her continue w/ the bible study because I can predict the resentment that will build if she doesn't, even if by her choice at my suggestion. She has made much progress since that time(4 years ago) and I've seen it in actions in reference to boundaries. I just don't know if it is enough to completely trust her in his presence. I don't think he is a crush or a prospect to my wife and the environment would prohibit any physical contact but then I'll have that 'doubt' gerbil wheel spinning in my head the whole time she is there. It feels like my choices are resentment against me or rugsweeping. 

I emailed the guy and got complete denial and a bit of righteous condescension suggesting Christian marriage counseling. I didn't expect much and didn't get it. I replied informing him that I knew it had happened and a landmark event in his life at the timeframe it happened and that the circumstances were predatorial/playerish, and that I hoped that wasn't the case. I also asked him to have no further contact with my wife. He hasn't replied, and I doubt he will.
@Diana7
The prayer group is ecumenical not based out of just my wife's church ( turns out this guy no longer goes to her church, just this study group) and is an advanced level group, that even if I had a desire to go, I'd be lost. Not to mention I'm not going to babysit my wife. I had little interest in the group to begin with but now that I know some of them( no idea who all she told, but a few) have heard how "horrible I am/used to be" that has blown any chance of going and enjoying it right out of the water.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have made big decisions in my life based on fear of my husband's resentment. I think in most cases I shouldn't have done that. I should have advocated for myself because I was just trading his resentment for my discomfort and pain.

I think she should be asked to find it in her heart to remove herself from the people she so improperly confided in, thus being a true caretaker of your M. A complete break and a fresh start with updated knowledge about what you should both expect in terms of boundaries.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

As others have said, your wife needs to not listen to men tell her personal things about his marriage, nor confide personal things to men. The guise of "prayer" does not change the inappropriateness of such conversations. People can also use the guise of "prayer" to gossip or divulge information on others.

Even if the man simply had very poor boundaries, he and your wife were treading on very dangerous ground speaking about their marital problems.

Since he has not had inappropriate conversations since that time, he must have not gotten the right cues from her, and put his sights elsewhere. Or he could be waiting for further cues from her.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

@Rubix Cubed,

My husband's affair was carried out at church. At the time he was not living with us due to work, and attending a church by himself in the town he lived.

The OW was his friend's wife, and the pastor's daughter. He had never been attracted to her, or gotten any strange vibes from her. Not until one day when he was in the church kitchen, and she came in and broke down crying, and said she was a "terrible wife." He was taken aback, but had sympathy for her.

They had no contact for a few days, until they met again at a Bible study held at night. After the Bible study they spoke outside, alone, about her marital problems and he confided his problems (of which I was not aware, since he was a poor communicator....except when it came to talking with OW evidently.)

She phoned him later that night, to "give him advice about his marital problems," and then they spoke for 4 hours. By the end of that conversation my husband was hooked on her and within 2 weeks they were committed to leaving their spouses and being together! 

She divorced her husband and went on to have more boyfriends, while my husband recommitted to me and we have struggled in our marriage since then.

Your need to make it perfectly clear to your wife that she had better not ever speak with that man, or any other man before or after that Bible study, or you will reconsider whether you want to remain married to her based on her loyalty to your marriage.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> @Rubix Cubed,
> 
> My husband's affair was carried out at church. At the time he was not living with us due to work, and attending a church by himself in the town he lived.
> 
> ...


 Yesterday I gave my wife a hypothetical example that could have been your story almost verbatim. It sucks that there is even a "textbook standard" cheater's script. 
The 2 weeks part is extremely disconcerting. 
I'll be interested in my wife's thoughts on your posts.

I wish you peace in your marriage.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).

With the stated events and facts that I have posted :

1) What do you think that the odds of the guy's intentions being completely innocent are?


2)What do you think that the odds of my wife's intentions being completely innocent are?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

@Rubix Cubed

Never get into a battle of morals... it never ends in agreement nor kindness and robs your calm while competing in piety.

I think it a very good idea to encourage her to continue her bible study and prayer groups... it is a good faith offering that your trust in her is important enough to place it open-handed for her to take and grow in.

I also think it best to continue to be totally clear (and it sounds as if you have) about what is acceptable to share and what isn't... offer her a written list on a 3x5 or on her phone in a note that she can reflect on so there is no doubt what has been shared. If you have a lot of conversation so much gets lost in translation, keep it clear and not too detailed... the more simple the better.

Something like:

* We never share the bedroom
* We never share an insecurity
* We never share an undiscussed hurt

I'd also like to offer a response to post#68...

I do not believe his actions were totally innocent or he would have apologized profusely instead of becoming defensive... something hit home.

It's possible (I am not privy to her thinking) your wife may have liked the attention of shared confidence and got too close to the edge... it would help her to remember not all corners have guardrails and she must build her own on the fly from time to time. I would not focus on this but offer a hand up so that she knows you have the confidence in her to make the right choices for you both and then allow her to stand on her merit of actions.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

mrsholland said:


> we have a very simple rule: No discussing any issues in our relationship with os unless it is a sibling.
> 
> So insanely simple, it works.
> 
> To do anything else would be a deliberate inviting of drama into our lives. I love my husband, not drama.


^^^^ this^^^^


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

We had more discussion tonight and I think we made decent progress. 
She admitted that she knew it was wrong when it happened, but didn't comprehend the ramifications or the risk involved. 
She also admitted that there was an attraction to him "not looks" but maybe a spiritual attraction (my words). Feels like progress, I guess time will tell. 
Tonight was also her bible study night which she did not go to. At this point, she's still strict NC with him, but we are working on some possible options, by my suggestion, I can be at peace with. She said she would not go back if I'm not comfortable with it.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).
> 
> With the stated events and facts that I have posted :
> 
> ...


This is the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing. I have attended numerous bible studies, and have seen both genders be one of these 2 
!. be there to learn about God and support each other, 
2. Looking for any piece of strange they can find.

The OM's response should have been a apology and assurance nothing improper was intended. His brushoff sounds more like gas lighting to me. Your wife may have had ok intentions, but I don't think he did.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).
> 
> With the stated events and facts that I have posted :
> 
> ...


I have said this before but it’s worth saying again.
Women think they know what a man is thinking but they don’t.
If your wife’s is in any slight way attractive then I can guarantee that this guy has wondered about getting her in the sack.
She has thought the same about him,that’s why she is feeling guilty and didn’t want to go to class last night.
If you don’t listen to any other advice please listen to this and again I mean no offense.
Do not allow your wife any contact with this guy,you are being gaslighted and you are now talking about letting her have limited contact with him.She will read this in her fogged up mind that you are ok with their “friendship” and you will be back here in six months.
He is a player and he doesn’t give a damn about you,your marriage or your family.If your wife was an alcoholic would you let her go to the bar “occasionally”, well if you want any peace of mind keep her and this guy apart.
It’s three am where I am and I am angry on your behalf,not a good start to the day.
Keep the fox out of the henhouse,it’s not eggs he is after.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I wouldn't even share very personal stuff with a sibling. My husband's ex went round telling lots of people about their issues, to get them on her 'side' I think, and he told no one, that's the sort of man he is. He doesn't worry what people think of him and he didn't think it was appropriate to tell others their private stuff.
> 
> The only exception I may make is if we saw a MC.


Cool. But we come from different worlds. My siblings are trustworthy as is my Dad (my go to guy), MrH doesn't have as close a relationship with his siblings but I would have no issue with him talking to any of them when we have issues. Neither of us come from families where they would throw us under the bus or get people to take sides. My family adore him and his adore me.

We are odd bods, my family adore MrH V1 and he is as included as MrH V2, not all people are untrustworthy, at least not in my personal experience.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Affairs can -- and do -- start just that easily. Happens all the time. Your wife should not be discussing your marriage -- or you -- with other men. She sounds very naive about how things can go. Hopefully, this has been a wake-up call for her.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> My wife, on a few occasions, has shared personal details about me, her, and our relationship to Men in her bible study class, church, and even religious acquaintances. She has also had some shared back with her such as one man's wife and he were having problems and she moved out of the bedroom. All of this is done under the guise of asking for prayers or praying for these men. I consider the details completely inappropriate with a man. I wouldn't be real crazy about my private life being divulged to a bunch of women under the same circumstances but wouldn't see it as inappropriate from a boundaries point of view. This was also not revealed to me until well after the incidences happened and took some prying to get.
> What are your thoughts on this?


*A staunch United Methodist here, and I find your wife's actions and thoughts as being totally inappropriate!*


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I have said this before but it’s worth saying again.
> Women think they know what a man is thinking but they don’t.
> If your wife’s is in any slight way attractive then I can guarantee that this guy has wondered about getting her in the sack.
> She has thought the same about him,that’s why she is feeling guilty and didn’t want to go to class last night.
> ...


 Andy, no offense taken and I appreciate the input. Your advice is likely the same I would give anyone from an outside perspective as well. I won't even claim the cliche's of "I know my wife better ..., they're just friends, she'd never do that ..." I've heard them all and seen them in action, I get it.
I haven't made a decision one way or the other about rigid no contact or being open for her to attend bible study classes with no interaction with him. The no interaction with him is mandatory, and if we go that route I don't expect her to cause a scene with other people there to avoid a one-word answer to him, but nothing beyond that ... hard stop.

I am leaning toward @Emerging Buddhist's line of thought of giving her a hand up to do the right thing. I can't police and babysit my wife for the rest of our marriage, and if I can't trust her to do the right thing at a Bible study group now that it is absolutely CRYSTAL clear what I expect then it's probably time for the curtain call. I'm considering giving her the rope. She can use it to climb out of the hole she's in or use it to hang herself. If I did agree to let her go back to the study class it would be with no interaction with the guy and her leader must know what happened and possibly another attendee. As I said before it will be crystal clear what I expect and that I'm not OKing what happened. When I initially told her no contact, she said I can't even say "Hi", and I stated NO and then backtracked and told her she "could say "hi" or whatever she wanted to say to him, just not as my wife. If she felt the need to be friends with him then go get separation/divorce papers, we'll sign them and you can go hang out with him all you want."She stated she did not want that. If she does go back, any breach of the boundaries we've discussed (which have all been openly recorded for both of us) would be the same as getting the papers and going that route, as said before she stated she did not want. So that's where my mind is right now. If I go that route and end up regretting it, I will update everyone and take all of the "Atoadaso's"(Rickyism) I deserve, and you can bet I will be 1000x harder on myself than you guys could ever be.

eta:Andy, I'm not the least bit afraid of fox hunting.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

You have behaved like a boss once you got over the initial shock. Your wife now knows the rules and what any infraction will result in and you can’t do any more than that,the ball is in her court.
On a different topic,when I was young I spent a lot of time in Ireland. In the countryside if you killed a fox and brought its tongue to the local police station you got a financial reward. Hard to “talk”with no tongue ?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @Emerging Buddhist ,
> 
> Thank you for your wise input. It's a lot to absorb so I will comment on the end, re: fine line.
> I would like to let her continue w/ the bible study because I can predict the resentment that will build if she doesn't, even if by her choice at my suggestion. She has made much progress since that time(4 years ago) and I've seen it in actions in reference to boundaries. I just don't know if it is enough to completely trust her in his presence. I don't think he is a crush or a prospect to my wife and the environment would prohibit any physical contact but then I'll have that 'doubt' gerbil wheel spinning in my head the whole time she is there. It feels like my choices are resentment against me or rugsweeping.
> ...


OH so she told others as well about your marriage issues???Not good. I make it a point not to discuss my husband with anyone except if I say positive things.
I have been a Christian for many years and I am very aware that we can make or break our marriage with our words. 
If there were marriage issues then she should have gone to a MC.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Cool. But we come from different worlds. My siblings are trustworthy as is my Dad (my go to guy), MrH doesn't have as close a relationship with his siblings but I would have no issue with him talking to any of them when we have issues. Neither of us come from families where they would throw us under the bus or get people to take sides. My family adore him and his adore me.
> 
> We are odd bods, my family adore MrH V1 and he is as included as MrH V2, not all people are untrustworthy, at least not in my personal experience.


I trust my brother with my life, and he really likes my husband, but I am still not going to say anything negative to him about my husband or marriage. I dont do that with anyone.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> This is the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing. I have attended numerous bible studies, and have seen both genders be one of these 2
> !. be there to learn about God and support each other,
> 2. Looking for any piece of strange they can find.
> 
> The OM's response should have been a apology and assurance nothing improper was intended. His brushoff sounds more like gas lighting to me. Your wife may have had ok intentions, but I don't think he did.


Wow not sure what churches you go to but in the 30 or so years I have been to Bible studies, I never saw anyone or any indication that men or women were there to there to get off with someone.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I see it as inappropriate, no matter who it's shared with. Those are details that should be kept between you and her. I would ask her to stop, if it were me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).
> 
> With the stated events and facts that I have posted :
> 
> ...



I honestly don't get in your story that either of them were predators out to have an affair. I don't see that at all, otherwise why would he have left the group 2 years ago? Contrary to what some here say, not all men are out to have an affair, especially if they are committed Christians. To imply that is demeaning of all the countless good men there are around who have moral values and integrity. 
However as others have said, getting too close to someone and talking about each others personal and marriage issues, can gradually lead to things that were never intended. 

Being that she has clearly told others there as well about you and some marriage issues(which I didn't realise till today), I think that she needs to find a new group where she can make that decision not to discuss personal marriage issues and start afresh. Maybe you could even go together. 
I would feel that I had betrayed my husband if I discussed issues personal to him or the marriage.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think EB's ideas have merit.

However, I want to take it one step further.

"Wife, you have already placed yourself in a potentially compromising position with this man...willingly. I have zero interest in controlling you. Just know that this debacle has significantly eroded my trust in you. Any further interactions or events attended with this man will damage it even more, and I can't remain in a marriage with someone I don't trust."


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).
> 
> With the stated events and facts that I have posted :
> 
> ...


It seems that neither of them were actively on the prowl. Most likely the man was having real problems, and inappropriately confided in your wife, thinking that as a woman, she might understand or have some input for him regarding his wife.

He doesn't have a history of having affairs, so I don't think he was testing the waters, although in a previous post I stated that he could have been.

Had your wife responded in a more personal, or flirty way, a light might have clicked, and he might have taken it further, had his heart and mind not been totally committed to the marriage.

I also don't believe your wife was looking for an affair, although she probably appreciated or admired the guy before the inappropriate interaction. However, she must have been flattered, and or attracted to him as a result of the interaction, and that is why her guilt kicked in about her "too personal" conversation with him. She didn't take it further, so her loyalty is with your marriage.

There is no sin in being attracted to someone...it just happens sometimes for various reasons. *Acting on* that attraction is the problem. I've been attracted to a few guys since being married: physically, hormonally, emotionally, because of admiration, etc. In every case, once I realized I was attracted, I made a conscious effort to keep the talking to a minimum, and I quit the greeting hugs. In fact, I don't hug any men ever as a greeting anymore. It is a safe precaution for me and for men who might be attracted to me. When they want to hug, I just say, "I don't hug men." Only one guy ever tried to make something of it, saying "Bah! I don't care, I am a hugger!" and attempted to hug me anyway. I pushed him away and repeated, "I don't hug men." He was such a nobody to me that I can't even remember who he is or what he looks like.

The fact that your wife remembers the conversation means that it was important to her. She has thought about it. She finally confessed it to you, and that shows a lot.

The guy's reaction was strange for a mature Christian. Rather than be "offended" and defensive, he should have been grieved and sad that something he did caused pain in another person's marriage. Even if he didn't remember it, he should have admitted that he didn't remember the interaction, but apologized profusely, since your wife remembered it and now you are hurting as a result. His response was like that of a self righteous immature person who thinks they are without fault. It could be that he knows he has done some questionable things, and he is afraid of the repercussions of not being perfect. He is an immature Christian, or is hiding something that may not have anything to do with your wife.


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## dreamer2017 (Nov 7, 2017)

Dear Rubix,

You must be extremely vigilant concerning the correspondence between your wife and her friend. Under no circumstance should you allow her to go to the bible class alone. I would go with her and view the interaction between your wife and the other guy. I would make them uncomfortable as possible.

Best,
Dreamer


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I trust my brother with my life, and he really likes my husband, but I am still not going to say anything negative to him about my husband or marriage. I dont do that with anyone.


Who said anything about saying negative things? Not talking about the OPs wife, regardless of what was said it was crossing a boundary but some of us are able to discuss life and issues with siblings without fear of reprisal. The more I read here the more I appreciate my family and support network.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Who said anything about saying negative things? Not talking about the OPs wife, regardless of what was said it was crossing a boundary but some of us are able to discuss life and issues with siblings without fear of reprisal. The more I read here the more I appreciate my family and support network.


I have no fears of reprisal whatsoever, they aren't like that, I just don't discuss personal things between my husband and I with anyone outside the marriage whether its very close friends or family members. Its that simple. 

Yes I too appreciate my family very much, they are great.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Who said anything about saying negative things? Not talking about the OPs wife, regardless of what was said it was crossing a boundary but some of us are able to discuss life and issues with siblings without fear of reprisal.*The more I read here the more I appreciate my family and support network.*


 You should. After a lifetime of being supportive of my sister, through some real bad stuff, not long ago she managed to turn it all around and throw it in my face while tearing me down in every facet of my life in a mere 10 minutes.
Not trying to sound preachy but yeah, you should be very thankful you have a great support network, and also recognize that that is your situation and not everyone may be that fortunate. I've got all of you though, so I've got that going for me.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> You should. After a lifetime of being supportive of my sister, through some real bad stuff, not long ago she managed to turn it all around and throw it in my face while tearing me down in every facet of my life in a mere 10 minutes.
> Not trying to sound preachy but yeah, you should be very thankful you have a great support network, and also recognize that that is your situation and not everyone may be that fortunate. I've got all of you though, so I've got that going for me.


You know, I do appreciate my peeps but the person I expect to be the most trustworthy and supportive of all is my husband. A life partner is a choice and that is why what your wife did sounds so hurtful and potentially dangerous (to your marriage).

While an action can be forgiven if there was no bad intention, going forward she needs to fully understand and appreciate that any further actions like this would be seen as intentional.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> You know, I do appreciate my peeps but the person I expect to be the most trustworthy and supportive of all is my husband. A life partner is a choice and that is why what your wife did sounds so hurtful and potentially dangerous (to your marriage).


You can pick your friends, but not your family. 


[/QUOTE]While an action can be forgiven if there was no bad intention, going forward she needs to fully understand and appreciate that any further actions like this would be seen as intentional.[/QUOTE]


I agree, and it has been made abundantly clear and she gets it. It just needs to stick.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

We made some more progress in the right direction today.
I went with my wife to talk to her bible study leader who is also something like a church counselor, to make sure the complete picture was presented.
As I expected she assured me the guy was harmless and he overshares often. I said that may be the case and it may not, I respect her opinion of him but I still see it as highly inappropriate and she agreed. I pointed out how his lack of a response in any form was very suspect, she thought he might not remember and he didn't know how to respond. I don't think that's the case and I let that be known. I also said that sharing private details or speaking poorly of me, by my wife to anyone was wrong but especially to the opposite sex. Again she agreed.
I stated my full NC requirement but then stated I may concede to let my wife go back to the class with *NO* interaction with the guy and as long as the leader would hold both accountable. My wife also asked for the same (to be held accountable). The leader said there would be no question of that. I asked if she would let me know if there was any transgression and she said she would, but I doubt that's what would really happen unless it was a huge transgression.
Her leader greatly appreciated how hard I was fighting for the marriage and made my wife realize that I was doing all of this for us and it was on track. Most of what I talked to her about was what I've come to learn around here and she seemed surprised at how on target and correct my thoughts and actions (standard TAM logic) were. I even cracked a couple of jokes that maybe I wasn't the heathen I was made out to be (the leader was also one of the people she had 'vented' to). She was completely non-judgemental and prayed a very nice prayer for us before we left. It went better than I had expected. I fully expected to be ganged up on and the opposite happened.

After we left I asked my wife what her plans for the class were and she said she wasn't going to go this "semester" and that she felt there needed to be some space created. Her call not mine, so I think she is trying.
The group leader also asked my permission to call the guy, who she does know well, and explain (if he is innocent-my addition) what the problem is. They consider themselves one big safe family and she thinks he just didn't consider what he was saying, but if it was her she would have stopped him in his tracks and walked away. I still held my line in the sand. It will be interesting to see if he contacts me after she speaks to him. The context could be quite revealing. We will see where we stand when the group starts up again in the Fall and re-evaluate at that point. They don't meet over the summer Still vigilant but less anxious about it, so I guess that is a step in the right direction. As usual, Time will tell.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> It seems that neither of them were actively on the prowl. Most likely the man was having real problems, and inappropriately confided in your wife, thinking that as a woman, she might understand or have some input for him regarding his wife.
> 
> He doesn't have a history of having affairs, so I don't think he was testing the waters, although in a previous post I stated that he could have been.
> 
> ...


 I think this is a very accurate interpretation of what happened, but I'm still wary about things. I still haven't gotten the whole story, and doubt I ever will due to the length of time ago that it happened and my wife's "I can't remember". I also recognize that this was likely not a solitary event. That will take awhile to get over, if I can at all. I also suspect that there were more feelings toward the guy than I have been told about. 
@Araucaria,
In regards to you having an attraction to someone else and recognizing that, did you inform your husband of it? Were you transparent about it? 
I agree it's not a sin/wrong to be attracted to someone until it is acted upon.It's biology and human nature. Once acted upon it is wrong ... period. 

Same question to everyone. Do you tell your spouse if you feel an attraction to someone?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @SunCMars
> 
> Those are interesting points and I believe they apply to her sharing with other women. I personally don't like my personal business being shared in too much detail. I'm all about being prayed for, that's awesome, but she has stated that no reason needs to be given to ask for prayers so why divulge anything?
> On that note I do not want my wife divulging any of our business to another man ... period ...hard stop.


I agree 100%...

It is all about protecting your own. 

It is wrapping a warm blanket around her, protecting her from the cold calculating thoughts of other men's thoughts; protecting her from their lascivious, disrobing eyes.

And protecting her from {her own} inclinations. Protecting her from {her own} predilections, her offering, her open and exposed mind to other men. For what purpose, doth she do these things?
It is the lure of forbidden fruit, of words stimulating places normally cloaked, covered with a fig leaf. 

The fact that he got her 'alone' when on break, shows intent from this would be POSOM. And shows unfettered complacency or complicity on her part. 

He knocked on her psyche and she answered. All this may be harmless, thus far, but must be monitored, from now on. 

Your wife's love may be more desultory, more on the surface than yours. She is not a deep lover. This is not a defect on her part, but obviously, an incompatibility and it makes you uncomfortable. 

Rather than brow beating her, I would tell her this, "You are mine, no man must ever come between us. I will not permit it. I love you too much for this to happen. I am not so much jealous, I am fiercely protective of my wife, of you." Hold her tight when you say this. 


The Typist II- still in Beta testing.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I agree 100%...
> 
> It is all about protecting your own.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I have made this clear but not sans the browbeating. Unfortunately, the browbeating has been the only way that any of these hidden things have been revealed, and I HATE that. I have asked these same questions over and over with a denial response, then all of a sudden there is a confession. It is extremely frustrating. Until it is consistently proven to me that she can tell me these things of her own volition, it appears that it may be a necessary evil.

p.s. The typist and the typist II are far easier to understand. :wink2:


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I think this is a very accurate interpretation of what happened, but I'm still wary about things. I still haven't gotten the whole story, and doubt I ever will due to the length of time ago that it happened and my wife's "I can't remember". I also recognize that this was likely not a solitary event. That will take awhile to get over, if I can at all. I also suspect that there were more feelings toward the guy than I have been told about.
> 
> @Araucaria,
> In regards to you having an attraction to someone else and recognizing that, did you inform your husband of it? Were you transparent about it?
> ...


No, that would be marital suicide. If you can feel this, then so can 'they'.
Plus, it creates anxiety, when none is necessary. 

My wife, 'frequently' points out actors that she finds attractive. Make a BIG point of telling me. 
Recently, one such guy had a heavy beard. I asked "What about his beard, you do not like beards?"
She then said, "He would have to clean himself up for him to get in my bed". 

I did not comment. I think that bothered her more than me saying anything in anger. 
Is she trying to make me jealous? Likely.... and yes, she does find them attractive. She speaks her mind.

Now, if I were to say what she says about women that I find attractive? Oh, boy! 

I would never voice such thoughts. It is simply not proper.

We are not young, by the way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think that your wife is doing MORE than enough to allay your fears, and I agree with the group leader that the man was also not acting out of any malice or out of wanting your wife. I have been in many church groups over many years, and some people do 'over share', while others never share anything. Its different personalities and characters. 
I think they both made an innocent mistake and you need to now let it go and move on.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> No, that would be marital suicide. If you can feel this, then so can 'they'.
> Plus, it creates anxiety, when none is necessary.
> 
> My wife, 'frequently' points out actors that she finds attractive. Make a BIG point of telling me.
> ...



I would see what you wife said as pretty mean, especially the beard and bed part. I wouldn't do that personally, very disrespectful, not that I am in the least bit interested in the Hollywood crowd, they all turn me right off.:frown2: 
I am far more attracted to the qualities and character of a man than looks anyway, so a good looking man alone does nothing for me.:laugh:


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Same question to everyone. Do you tell your spouse if you feel an attraction to someone?*

For clarification I was more referring to a person they have an ongoing presence with like a co-worker, classmate, neighbor, business associate, bible study group co-attendee:|, etc. Someone you and your spouse will/may run into through your daily life, not strangers walking down the street or unattainable movie stars.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I think that your wife is doing MORE than enough to allay your fears, and* I agree with the group leader that the man was also not acting out of any malice or out of wanting your wife.* I have been in many church groups over many years, and some people do 'over share', while others never share anything. Its different personalities and characters.
> I think they both made an innocent mistake and you need to now let it go and move on.


 Not sure I agree with the "MORE" but I agree with the "ENOUGH" . My problem is more with how long it took to come clean, the reasons for that, and the lack of a complete story. Which will be an ongoing issue (and has been a past issue) regardless of this man's intentions. One reason she has used was she used to be scared of my reaction, but that hasn't been the case for two years or so since I straightened out my behavior.

So do you think I should just rugsweep the issue and let her go back to the group as if nothing ever happened?

That ain't happenin'.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I think this is a very accurate interpretation of what happened, but I'm still wary about things. I still haven't gotten the whole story, and doubt I ever will due to the length of time ago that it happened and my wife's "I can't remember". I also recognize that this was likely not a solitary event. That will take awhile to get over, if I can at all. I also suspect that there were more feelings toward the guy than I have been told about.
> 
> @Araucaria,
> In regards to you having an attraction to someone else and recognizing that, did you inform your husband of it? Were you transparent about it?
> ...


At the time I didn't tell him. My feelings were split second feelings that I immediately dealt with. Probably people here would even think I was ridiculous for shutting down a split second feeling rather than daydreaming over them. Perhaps my short attractions aren't even relevant when compared to some posters who think it is OK to watch porn, fantasize, etc.

After he had his affair, I did tell him, without naming anyone, that I had been attracted to different people throughout our marriage. I wanted him to know that I too am human. I just have self control, and have protected myself, him, and our marriage from my own stupidity and/or temptation.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Not sure I agree with the "MORE" but I agree with the "ENOUGH" . My problem is more with how long it took to come clean, the reasons for that, and the lack of a complete story. Which will be an ongoing issue (and has been a past issue) regardless of this man's intentions. One reason she has used was she used to be scared of my reaction, but that hasn't been the case for two years or so since I straightened out my behavior.
> 
> So do you think I should just rugsweep the issue and let her go back to the group as if nothing ever happened?
> 
> That ain't happenin'.


Not at all. I agree that you needed to challenge her and make sure that this wasn't going to happen again, but she has done everything you wanted. You said that it wasn't till she saw him again 2 years later that she began to realise she had acted wrongly. That's how God works sometimes, He waits and challenges us some time later about past actions. She didn't have to even tell you, but she did, give her credit for that, and she had accepted all of your requests for her and this group and has even said she isn't going to go for a while. 

Please don't blow this up to be more than it was. It wasn't an EA and its now been dealt with.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> At the time I didn't tell him. My feelings were split second feelings that I immediately dealt with. Probably people here would even think I was ridiculous for shutting down a split second feeling rather than daydreaming over them. Perhaps my short attractions aren't even relevant when compared to some posters who think it is OK to watch porn, fantasize, etc.
> 
> After he had his affair, I did tell him, without naming anyone, that I had been attracted to different people throughout our marriage. I wanted him to know that I too am human. I just have self control, and have protected myself, him, and our marriage from my own stupidity and/or temptation.


I respect you a lot for what you did. Any wrong thoughts towards another person can be shut down if we have self control and discipline. If we feed these thoughts and put coal on the fire then guess what, the fire will burn brighter. If we starve them then the fire will go out. Its a really good thing to do that would save many marriages. :smile2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> *Same question to everyone. Do you tell your spouse if you feel an attraction to someone?*
> 
> For clarification I was more referring to a person they have an ongoing presence with like a co-worker, classmate, neighbor, business associate, bible study group co-attendee:|, etc. Someone you and your spouse will/may run into through your daily life, not strangers walking down the street or unattainable movie stars.


I would think its more important that you work on not letting wrong thoughts take hold and having as little contact with them as possible. 
I cant say what I would do as its never happened. I honestly have no interest in another man.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Not at all. I agree that you needed to challenge her and make sure that this wasn't going to happen again, but she has done everything you wanted. You said that it wasn't till she saw him again 2 years later that she began to realise she had acted wrongly. That's how God works sometimes, He waits and challenges us some time later about past actions. She didn't have to even tell you, but she did, give her credit for that, and she had accepted all of your requests for her and this group and has even said she isn't going to go for a while.


 That's great info and how she would likely see it. I just wish God had been a bit more expedient :grin2: as in the night it happened and this would have been a much smaller deal to me.


> Please don't blow this up to be more than it was. It wasn't an EA and its now been dealt with.


 I'm trying to keep this in perspective and think I have done a good job with that, asking for advice here when I thought I may be overdoing it. If it had been an EA my request for advice would have been more along the lines of who's a good attorney.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> *Same question to everyone. Do you tell your spouse if you feel an attraction to someone?*
> 
> For clarification I was more referring to a person they have an ongoing presence with like a co-worker, classmate, neighbor, business associate, bible study group co-attendee:|, etc. Someone you and your spouse will/may run into through your daily life, not strangers walking down the street or unattainable movie stars.


Language is complicated. For me, "feel an attraction" to someone is definitely stronger than "thought someone was good looking". I think feeling an attraction means that you have a real desire to be with someone.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

@Rubix Cubed you said in a previous post about when you met the leader of the prayer group along with your wife that you thought they would gang up on you but you were surprised when they didn’t.
They did,you just didn’t realize it.You left the meeting quite happy that your wife and her mentor/prayer group leader agreed with all your points and the leader would reinforce your boundaries if necessary.They have agreed to nothing of the sort and both tried to alleviate your fears by saying that the other man was harmless.The only person who conceded any ground here was you in saying you would consider allowing your wife back to the prayer meetings,however when you asked ,your wife said she wasn’t going to attend this semester,but you had allready said you hadn’t given your wife permission to attend anyway?
Then you gave the prayer leader the ok to contact this guy to explain what is going on.That was just her way of tipping off one of her flock.The most worrying thing I have read on this thread was your wife and her mentor both agreed that om was “harmless”,how many times have we heard this before.
I am scratching my head here because for some reason you seem convinced that you have came across as a strong willed man who is in control of his marriage.You are dealing with religion here and I don’t think you fully understand where they are coming from.You called it a happy family and you are right but you are not a member of this family so they don’t care about you.They only care about themselves and if your have to lose your wife so that their little group stays intact,well that’s gods work and who are we to question him.
Accept this.Your wife is lying to you,she remembers every discussion she ever had about you and you’re marriage but it’s easier to say she can’t remember than to be honest with you about how she enjoyed chatting with this guy.Trying to get information from your wife must be exhausting.You call it browbeating but it’s more like pulling teeth.
Suncmars puts it more eloquently than I could, but do what he suggests about telling your wife how much she means to you,but ad the proviso that you will not share your mate and would prefer to be alone than have this nightmare continue.
Again, keep the fox out of the henhouse,even if he is disguised as a lamb.
One more thing.Is Diana7 your wife’s prayer group leader?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> @Rubix Cubed
> I am scratching my head here because for some reason you seem convinced that you have came across as a strong willed man who is in control of his marriage.You are dealing with religion here and I don’t think you fully understand where they are coming from.*You called it a happy family and you are right but you are not a member of this family so they don’t care about you.They only care about themselves and if your have to lose your wife so that their little group stays intact,well that’s gods work and who are we to question him.*
> Accept this.Your wife is lying to you*,she remembers every discussion she ever had about you and you’re marriage but it’s easier to say she can’t remember than to be honest with you about how she enjoyed chatting with this guy.*Trying to get information from your wife must be exhausting.You call it browbeating but it’s more like pulling teeth.
> Suncmars puts it more eloquently than I could, but do what he suggests about telling your wife how much she means to you,but ad the proviso that you will not share your mate and would prefer to be alone than have this nightmare continue.
> ...


Andy, you obviously don't know the heart of every Christian. There are people who call themselves Christians who are more concerned with their "ministry" surviving than they are about being in God's will. 

However there are Christians who love God more than they do themselves, and want to do what is right even at their own expense.

You do not know the leader to know which she is. You have no right to falsely accuse her without knowing her heart.

That is a ridiculous statement, Andy. Can you even remember the *names* of every woman you spent hours bedding? I'm sure you cannot. You cannot remember the conversations you had with them either. 

Rubix Cube's wife may very well have forgotten the details of the one conversation she had with him...which only lasted for minutes.

What you said about @Diana7 is low and uncalled for.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Andy, you obviously don't know the heart of every Christian. There are people who call themselves Christians who are more concerned with their "ministry" surviving than they are about being in God's will.
> 
> However there are Christians who love God more than they do themselves, and want to do what is right even at their own expense.
> 
> ...


First of all what I said about Diana was a joke and I think she will get it even if you don’t.
When it comes to organized religion I know a hell of a lot more about it than you think.
As for the conversation between her and him,if she only had one conversation with him then surely she can remember it.
And I’m not really sure what my ex girlfriends have to do with the matter anyway but if I only had one I’m pretty certain I could remember her name.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> First of all what I said about Diana was a joke and I think she will get it even if you don’t.
> When it comes to organized religion I know a hell of a lot more about it than you think.
> As for the conversation between her and him,if she only had one conversation with him then surely she can remember it.
> And I’m not really sure what my ex girlfriends have to do with the matter anyway but if I only had one I’m pretty certain I could remember her name.


Your post about Diana, coming from an internet stranger, to another internet stranger, sounded like a sarcastic jab. I didn't know you knew Diana that well. I just know her from her posts here. I hope you are right, and I just didn't get your joke, and if I stuck up for her needlessly, I apologize for butting in where I didn't belong. 

Regarding the prayer group leader, you are accusing a person, and you defend yourself by saying you know "organized religion." They are not equal. Individuals make up organized religions, and those people are not all identical. I have known amazingly fair and just Christians, and have known ones like you described, yet you paint all with a dark brush. 

Are all Muslims child rapists even if their book says it is OK? No. 

Are all Christians lovers of themselves and their prayer group's existence ignoring the Biblical mandate to "love your neighbor as yourself." No. That mandate means one's Christian and non Christian neighbor. If I had to choose who should live, a Christian or a non Christian, I would choose for the non Christian to live, because it would give the non Christian more time to know Christ, whereas the Christian knows Christ and would be going to be with Him in death. So your accusation that Christians don't love non Christians (people not in their group, according to you) is untrue beginning with me. I know there are a lot more Christians than just myself who would be willing to give their own life if they were forced to choose who lives and who dies.

The reason I brought up your ONS (my knowledge is based on your own posts in other threads over the year) is to stress the point that people forget things. They even forget things said by and to people with whom they spent hours. (And I don't believe you remember the names of every woman you bedded. Girlfriends, yes, ONS, no.) 

I don't believe Rubix's wife is lying, because she didn't ever need to tell him anything in the first place. Maybe she is lying, maybe she is not. No one knows for certain either way. Even in a court of law, one cannot be convicted unless they are proven to be guilty. If there is any doubt, they must be found not guilty. The circumstances around Rubix Cubed's wife's conversation 4 years ago leave a lot of room for doubt.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Your post about Diana, coming from an internet stranger, to another internet stranger, sounded like a sarcastic jab. I didn't know you knew Diana that well. I just know her from her posts here. I hope you are right, and I just didn't get your joke, and if I stuck up for her needlessly, I apologize for butting in where I didn't belong.
> 
> Regarding the prayer group leader, you are accusing a person, and you defend yourself by saying you know "organized religion." They are not equal. Individuals make up organized religions, and those people are not all identical. I have known amazingly fair and just Christians, and have known ones like you described, yet you paint all with a dark brush.
> 
> ...


I would really love to get into a debate about religion,organized or not,but this isn’t my thread so I will leave it at that.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> That is a ridiculous statement, Andy. Can you even remember the *names* of every woman you spent hours bedding? I'm sure you cannot. You cannot remember the conversations you had with them either.
> 
> Rubix Cube's wife may very well have forgotten the details of the one conversation she had with him...which only lasted for minutes.


 Just to clarify for accuracy, there were many conversations.They were in this prayer group together for 10 years, 2 of them being AFTER the known inappropriate conversation and She can't remember any of them with the comment that, many were about scripture or him quoting scripture. I'm with Andy on this. I think there are lies of omission and minimization here. I'm almost certain of it. She recalls what he said to her because she was shocked, but can't remember anything she said about me. The end result being someone else committed the known foul. She has told me in general what she said to other women about me, but I believe that is being minimized as well. Short of using some serious interrogation techniques (my jumper cables are broken and I'm out of sponges, by the way) the only way I'll get this is when she decides I do. It's not helping things the longer it takes, and hopefully she realizes that.

@Andy1001 


> Trying to get information from your wife must be exhausting.You call it browbeating but it’s more like pulling teeth.


 Yep, it truly sucks and wastes a huge amount of time when we could be moving on and trying to make things better.

I did come out of that meeting feeling good but don't think for a second that your thought wasn't on my mind the whole time. Even though they didn't verbally gang up on me I knew I was the odd man out, and I'm way out, I've told her this before. I agree with you somewhat about the loyalties but I also know many of the other people in this group and their character, and I'm reasonably sure (like 99% only because I never say never) they wouldn't let something like this happen in front of them and or try to enable it. Though I may come across on here as being undecided, I'm anything but a weak minded individual. At this point, there is no difference in what is happening and what I offered, but I do have a better idea of my wife's commitment. She already made it clear she enjoyed chatting with this guy, and he being made aware really doesn't change a thing, it may give him the opportunity to not act like a dumbass again if he actually is innocent. My email to him left no doubt what I thought, so he was not unaware. I'm listening to everyone and contemplating what has been advised, but I also have a plan to proceed and adapting as needed.

I've also been reading daily on these forums for over 2 years and remember when you showed up. I followed your story closely and as far as payback it's one of the best :smthumbup:, but that aggressiveness seems to show up in your posts no matter the offense or at what level, NTTIATWWT /not judging, and I take that with the rest and try to come up with what I can live with. So instead of telling me what I'm doing wrong, tell me exactly what you think I should do and what your endgame would look like, and keep in mind I don't have the re$ource$ that you do so having my own private spec ops team kidnap the guy and interrogate him on my private island isn't an option this week. :ezpi_wink1:


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I would really love to get into a debate about religion,organized or not,but this isn’t my thread so I will leave it at that.


 Take it to Politics and Religion, start it up and I'll be there with bells on.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Just to clarify for accuracy, there were many conversations.They were in this prayer group together for 10 years, 2 of them being AFTER the known inappropriate conversation and She can't remember any of them with the comment that, many were about scripture or him quoting scripture. I'm with Andy on this. I think there are lies of omission and minimization here. I'm almost certain of it. She recalls what he said to her because she was shocked, but can't remember anything she said about me. The end result being someone else committed the known foul. She has told me in general what she said to other women about me, but I believe that is being minimized as well. Short of using some serious interrogation techniques (my jumper cables are broken and I'm out of sponges, by the way) the only way I'll get this is when she decides I do. It's not helping things the longer it takes, and hopefully she realizes that.
> 
> @Andy1001
> 
> ...


If you have a problem with someone interfering in your marriage,even if it is by enabling someone else then cut them out of your life.
In other words do not let your wife have any contact with the guy in question and if he is welcome at the prayer meeting then make it clear to your wife she will not be attending,if she wants to still be your wife that is.And I don’t trust the prayer group leader,anyone who’s answer to you being worried about your marriage is to tell you the other man is harmless is bad news.
That’s what you hear when someone does something crazy,”oh we thought he was harmless”

As far as me being aggressive is concerned it is only on tam,in my regular life I am the most relaxed man you will ever meet.My girlfriend tells me I never raise my voice even when I am really pissed but she knows the signs,I’m just not used to people not doing what I tell them lol.I sold my private Island by the way,too many tourists don’t you know.

“If you have a problem with a man and you get rid of the man then you also get rid of the problem”
I bet I’m the first person on tam to ever quote Josef Stalin.😀


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> That's great info and how she would likely see it. I just wish God had been a bit more expedient :grin2: as in the night it happened and this would have been a much smaller deal to me.
> 
> I'm trying to keep this in perspective and think I have done a good job with that, asking for advice here when I thought I may be overdoing it. If it had been an EA my request for advice would have been more along the lines of who's a good attorney.



Yes I think you have done a good job. I think you are both working together on this. I have strong boundaries as well as I have seen too many marriages and lives destroyed through people getting too close to others, some in my own family, and that's why I know they are important. I hope and pray that you will be able to forgive and look forward now. I think God is on the case. :smile2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> @Rubix Cubed you said in a previous post about when you met the leader of the prayer group along with your wife that you thought they would gang up on you but you were surprised when they didn’t.
> They did,you just didn’t realize it.You left the meeting quite happy that your wife and her mentor/prayer group leader agreed with all your points and the leader would reinforce your boundaries if necessary.They have agreed to nothing of the sort and both tried to alleviate your fears by saying that the other man was harmless.The only person who conceded any ground here was you in saying you would consider allowing your wife back to the prayer meetings,however when you asked ,your wife said she wasn’t going to attend this semester,but you had allready said you hadn’t given your wife permission to attend anyway?
> Then you gave the prayer leader the ok to contact this guy to explain what is going on.That was just her way of tipping off one of her flock.The most worrying thing I have read on this thread was your wife and her mentor both agreed that om was “harmless”,how many times have we heard this before.
> I am scratching my head here because for some reason you seem convinced that you have came across as a strong willed man who is in control of his marriage.You are dealing with religion here and I don’t think you fully understand where they are coming from.You called it a happy family and you are right but you are not a member of this family so they don’t care about you.They only care about themselves and if your have to lose your wife so that their little group stays intact,well that’s gods work and who are we to question him.
> ...


Not likely as I am from the UK.:surprise:
I just sense that this wasn't too serious and that they can put it behind them. If she didn't care, then why would she tell him about it after 2 years? Her conscience was telling her to confess, and how many women would have done that?

I cant remember conversations that I had with people that far back. I am sure that not many of us could. Remember that the church is a family like our blood families. Families do get close and that why we need to be cautious and careful. She made a mistake, not a very serious one, and its being dealt with. Please move on and enjoy your marriage together. Don't let ones mans views make you doubt your wife. 

So many here think the worse of others, and sometimes that doesn't apply and I feel strongly that this lady haS realise that she didn't act as she should and that God is dealing with her about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> @Rubix Cubed you said in a previous post about when you met the leader of the prayer group along with your wife that you thought they would gang up on you but you were surprised when they didn’t.
> They did,you just didn’t realize it.You left the meeting quite happy that your wife and her mentor/prayer group leader agreed with all your points and the leader would reinforce your boundaries if necessary.They have agreed to nothing of the sort and both tried to alleviate your fears by saying that the other man was harmless.The only person who conceded any ground here was you in saying you would consider allowing your wife back to the prayer meetings,however when you asked ,your wife said she wasn’t going to attend this semester,but you had allready said you hadn’t given your wife permission to attend anyway?
> Then you gave the prayer leader the ok to contact this guy to explain what is going on.That was just her way of tipping off one of her flock.The most worrying thing I have read on this thread was your wife and her mentor both agreed that om was “harmless”,how many times have we heard this before.
> I am scratching my head here because for some reason you seem convinced that you have came across as a strong willed man who is in control of his marriage.You are dealing with religion here and I don’t think you fully understand where they are coming from.You called it a happy family and you are right but you are not a member of this family so they don’t care about you.They only care about themselves and if your have to lose your wife so that their little group stays intact,well that’s gods work and who are we to question him.
> ...


I have been to many different churches over 60 years and believe me they care very much about others especially the families of those they know. I have several friends whose husband's don't go to church and we never talk badly about them EVER, and if they are ill or whatever we always pray for them and ask after them. The same with other family members they have, we care. 

I don't see what you do at all, I think the leader dealt with it very well and with wisdom and common sense.
His wife seems sorry, repentant and prepared to do what it takes to make this right. We don't get spouses on here very often who do that.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Just to clarify for accuracy, there were many conversations.They were in this prayer group together for 10 years, 2 of them being AFTER the known inappropriate conversation and She can't remember any of them with the comment that, many were about scripture or him quoting scripture. I'm with Andy on this. I think there are lies of omission and minimization here. I'm almost certain of it. She recalls what he said to her because she was shocked, but can't remember anything she said about me. The end result being someone else committed the known foul. She has told me in general what she said to other women about me, but I believe that is being minimized as well. Short of using some serious interrogation techniques (my jumper cables are broken and I'm out of sponges, by the way) the only way I'll get this is when she decides I do. It's not helping things the longer it takes, and hopefully she realizes that.
> :


Being in a prayer group is not the same thing as going away alone and having a private conversation. How many private conversations did they have that she can't remember?

Like Diana I've not been in a Bible study where anyone complained or exposed intimate details about their spouse or marriage, except for a couple of women going through nasty separations or divorces with abusive, neglectful or drug addicted spouses (who were not walking with God at the time). 

Many prayer groups are too big, and there are people in them that you don't know that well, so it is not a good idea to tell things that can be misjudged or taken out of context by people who do not know you and your spouse well. When people are still married and not actively divorcing they usually don't want to say things about their spouse that will be held against them by outsiders long after the problems have been resolved.

If she can't remember anything she has said about you to the prayer group over the years, yet she admits she has shared things, I agree with Andy that she is lying. Even if she doesn't remember the exact words, she can remember what was happening and her feelings about it and that it was big enough to bring up in the prayer group.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> In other words do not let your wife have any contact with the guy in question and if he is welcome at the prayer meeting then make it clear to your wife she will not be attending,if she wants to still be your wife that is.


Those were the exact words I used and that's where it stands right now. The upside is she chose it to be that way whether I demanded it or not.

[/QUOTE]
As far as me being aggressive is concerned it is only on tam, in my regular life I am the most relaxed man you will ever meet.My girlfriend tells me I never raise my voice even when I am really pissed but she knows the signs,I’m just not used to people not doing what I tell them lol.I sold my private Island by the way,too many tourists don’t you know.

“If you have a problem with a man and you get rid of the man then you also get rid of the problem”
I bet I’m the first person on tam to ever quote Josef Stalin.😀[/QUOTE]

That's funny, because I'm more aggressive than I come off on here, but I'm working on that.
I googled your Stalin quote because I actually kind of like it and didn't really want to like a Stalin quote. The results are frickin hilarious.
https://www.google.com/search?q=“If...m”&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Being in a prayer group is not the same thing as going away alone and having a private conversation. *How many private conversations did they have that she can't remember?*


 It was private in the sense that it wasn't during the group meeting, like on a break, before or after, walking out to the cars. She says other people were "around" just not part of their conversation. I wouldn't consider talking in a group private. As far as how many times, who knows, she doesn't or won't divulge it to me if she does.
Can you get amnesia without hitting your head? :slap:


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> It was private in the sense that it wasn't during the group meeting, like on a break, before or after but I was told they were still in the room with other people just far enough away to be having their own conversation. As far as how many times, who knows, she doesn't or won't divulge it to me if she does.
> Can you get amnesia without hitting your head? :slap:


This is super simple

She is revealing, confiding and exposing intimate details about your life .

Choirboy, waitress, next door neighbor, lawn boy, pool boy, bestie GF-


WHO is the deal breaker ?

If this a deal breaker than just make it a deal breaker.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Wow not sure what churches you go to but in the 30 or so years I have been to Bible studies, I never saw anyone or any indication that men or women were there to there to get off with someone.


Most people are there to learn, but I've seen both genders test the boundaries of other people. Most of the people being tested had enough discernment to shut it down before it went anywhere.

BUT, if someone was feeling beat down, didn't maintain good boundaries, that's where OP's problems started as well.

I've even seen a pastor take someone aside & tell them to hit the door & don't come back because they were trolling at a bible study.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> This is super simple
> 
> She is revealing, confiding and exposing intimate details about your life .
> 
> ...


And if it's a bump in the road, what, Just shut up?


Um .... Thanks.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> And if it's a bump in the road, what, Just shut up?
> 
> 
> Um .... Thanks.


So- if she was spouting the details of your sex life to the pool boy you'd be agonizing over this?
If yes- than you deserve your angst .
If no- just the bible study dude gets to hear how You are a zero in bed- then I guess you deserve your angst .

Those bible study boys are so different than the pool boys.

And yes- your water is absolutely dry. Could not have put it better myself.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Blah blah blah Blah blah


I'm still amazed you haven't been banned. 4 years of unhelpful posts, you must be proud.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I'm still amazed you haven't been banned. 4 years of unhelpful posts, you must be proud.


Ok.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Those were the exact words I used and that's where it stands right now. The upside is she chose it to be that way whether I demanded it or not.


As far as me being aggressive is concerned it is only on tam, in my regular life I am the most relaxed man you will ever meet.My girlfriend tells me I never raise my voice even when I am really pissed but she knows the signs,I’m just not used to people not doing what I tell them lol.I sold my private Island by the way,too many tourists don’t you know.

“If you have a problem with a man and you get rid of the man then you also get rid of the problem”
I bet I’m the first person on tam to ever quote Josef Stalin.&#55357;&#56832;[/QUOTE]

That's funny, because I'm more aggressive than I come off on here, but I'm working on that.
I googled your Stalin quote because I actually kind of like it and didn't really want to like a Stalin quote. The results are frickin hilarious.
https://www.google.com/search?q=“If...m”&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8[/QUOTE]


In what way are you aggressive? Do you mean angry? 

I thought you said that you were ok with her gong with boundaries in place?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Most people are there to learn, but I've seen both genders test the boundaries of other people. Most of the people being tested had enough discernment to shut it down before it went anywhere.
> 
> BUT, if someone was feeling beat down, didn't maintain good boundaries, that's where OP's problems started as well.
> 
> I've even seen a pastor take someone aside & tell them to hit the door & don't come back because they were trolling at a bible study.


I must have been lucky because in the many groups I have been to over 45 years I haven't seen that. These were many different types of groups as well, youth, women only, mixed, Prayer breakfasts, Bible study, groups for new Christians etc etc.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> It was private in the sense that it wasn't during the group meeting, like on a break, before or after, walking out to the cars. She says other people were "around" just not part of their conversation. I wouldn't consider talking in a group private. As far as how many times, who knows, she doesn't or won't divulge it to me if she does.
> Can you get amnesia without hitting your head? :slap:


Can you remember all the conversations you had years ago? I have enough trouble remembering ones I had last week.:surprise: I think she remembered and told you about that one particular one because it made her feel uncomfortable at the time.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I thought you said that you were ok with her going with boundaries in place?


 I was considering it because I thought full NC would create resentment and I felt bad for stopping her from doing something she loves, I may have allowed it but I'm not OK with it. I do know that my mind would be spinning and anxious every time she went.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Can you remember all the conversations you had years ago? I have enough trouble remembering ones I had last week.:surprise: I think she remembered and told you about that one particular one because it made her feel uncomfortable at the time.


 If I said anything disparaging about my wife to a woman, YES, I would remember. For me that's a big deal and crosses a boundary and I remember important things such as that, there wouldn't even be a question of it.
The context of the conversation is what makes the difference.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> If I said anything disparaging about my wife to a woman, YES, I would remember. For me that's a big deal and crosses a boundary and I remember important things such as that, there wouldn't even be a question of it.
> The context of the conversation is what makes the difference.




```

```
Interested to know what you meant by aggressive. Are you aggressive and angry towards/with your wife?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Interested to know what you meant by aggressive. Are you aggressive and angry towards/with your wife?


 I have been verbally in the past. Not in the last couple of years. I already fessed up to all of that. 
The aggressiveness that I spoke of is more an aggressive competitive streak in one of my hobbies that I do at a national level. I can be pretty hardnosed on the job when need be as well. A characteristic doesn't necessarily have to pertain to every facet of your life, it can be in some and not in others. In my job and my sport aggressiveness is an asset not a flaw.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I have been verbally in the past. Not in the last couple of years. I already fessed up to all of that.
> The aggressiveness that I spoke of is more an aggressive competitive streak in one of my hobbies that I do at a national level. I can be pretty hardnosed on the job when need be as well. A characteristic doesn't necessarily have to pertain to every facet of your life, it can be in some and not in others. In my job and my sport aggressiveness is an asset not a flaw.


Ok its just that I was married to an angry man for 25 years and it wasn't nice. Do you think that she may still be a bit afraid of you after what you used to be like?
I felt with my ex that I could never be myself or be honest and had to walk on eggshells.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Ok its just that I was married to an angry man for 25 years and it wasn't nice. Do you think that she may still be a bit afraid of you after what you used to be like?
> I felt with my ex that I could never be myself or be honest and had to walk on eggshells.


 She used to use that as an excuse for why she didn't tell me anything, but it was an excuse. The truth is she does not like confessing anything that sheds a poor light on herself a.k.a. the stuff she should be honest about. For years we have both had resentment issues that exacerbated each others. Her resentment manifested in almost 180ing me and mine manifested itself in yelling trying to get a reaction to show she even cared. Each made the other worse. 

I've recently concluded and she seems to agree that the reason for the resentment was that we were together for roughly 14 years before she started to REALLY focus on her religion (we also had a child at this point) and as she got deeper and deeper into it she changed and expected me to accept her change and change with her, without ever telling me. I'm not great at mind reading. She focused on her religion through the church, study group, and Emmaus (don't get me started on that) and all this time she was moving away from me and our marriage and creating a poorer image of me in her head that she made worse and worse, she stressed about me being saved, my salvation. She started to have no respect for me or what I provided for her and treated me coldly and with disdain. She made this evolution without realizing it so thought she was doing everything right and was the same person I married. My reaction to being way down her ladder of priorities and her treatment was to lash out and verbally abuse her when we fought, trying to get a reaction out of the coldness I faced to see if she even cared. So I was the bad guy. My behavior was wrong and out in the open, while hers was cold and walled off, so it was easy to point at me as the villain. 
I didn't put all the pieces together until recently because of how long it took and the lack of details I had. I also did not realize how deep her disdain for me had grown. There lies the reason for her asking others for prayers and telling of my personal business. Still doesn't justify any of it.
So here we are trying to work through it.
Diana7 you have been great through all of this, but I sense you trying to start to spin this around on me and create a gotcha moment. I'm not without fault but I have owned mine and tried to lead OUR way out of this quagmire. 
By the way Diana, My wife loves you and your posts. Maybe Andy was right and you are her group leader in Brit disguise. :grin2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> She used to use that as an excuse for why she didn't tell me anything, but it was an excuse. The truth is she does not like confessing anything that sheds a poor light on herself a.k.a. the stuff she should be honest about. For years we have both had resentment issues that exacerbated each others. Her resentment manifested in almost 180ing me and mine manifested itself in yelling trying to get a reaction to show she even cared. Each made the other worse.
> 
> I've recently concluded and she seems to agree that the reason for the resentment was that we were together for roughly 14 years before she started to REALLY focus on her religion (we also had a child at this point) and as she got deeper and deeper into it she changed and expected me to accept her change and change with her, without ever telling me. I'm not great at mind reading. She focused on her religion through the church, study group, and Emmaus (don't get me started on that) and all this time she was moving away from me and our marriage and creating a poorer image of me in her head that she made worse and worse, she stressed about me being saved, my salvation. She started to have no respect for me or what I provided for her and treated me coldly and with disdain. She made this evolution without realizing it so thought she was doing everything right and was the same person I married. My reaction to being way down her ladder of priorities and her treatment was to lash out and verbally abuse her when we fought, trying to get a reaction out of the coldness I faced to see if she even cared. So I was the bad guy. My behavior was wrong and out in the open, while hers was cold and walled off, so it was easy to point at me as the villain.
> I didn't put all the pieces together until recently because of how long it took and the lack of details I had. I also did not realize how deep her disdain for me had grown. There lies the reason for her asking others for prayers and telling of my personal business. Still doesn't justify any of it.
> ...


LOL:laugh:

Please understand that God is FOR your marriage and all I want to do is to try and help. I felt that your wife was being very aquiescent over your demands over this so just wondered if it was because of her fear of your anger. For a woman being yelled at and having a husband who reacts with anger WILL stop her being able to open up and be honest, especially if its something she knows he wont like(been there done that). So for her to tell you about this time she talked to this guy may have taken guts and courage and was probably God prompting her to now tell you. Maybe it had to wait till the anger issues you had were more under control, God knows these things and He isn't in a hurry. 

I do honestly appreciate that you have both had issues, but well done to both of you for sticking with it, so many give up these days over even small things, and that's not what marriage is about. You clearly have deep love for each other and you children despite the difficulties. 

I do also appreciate the very real difficulties for both sides of being sort of 'unequally yoked' spiritually. I had that in my first marriage, and I have friends whose husband don't share their faith at all, and it can be very hard. My now husband of 12 years is a very strong Christian(I would never have married a man this time round who wasn't) and its so different. Its as if we are both walking together on the same path, not pulling in different directions. 

Have a think about going to a different group together. It may well help you both a lot. Also have you thought of some MC?

I have got very sad and annoyed at some of the replies here that accused her of all sorts of things with no proof at all.  Yes I appreciate that many men here have been cheated on and are bitter towards all or most women, and seem to want to make sure that everyone else's marriage also breaks up :frown2: but in your case, there are no signs at all for that, and the fact that SHE came to YOU all this time later and was honest, and is now being very repentant and wanting to put things right, says a LOT. I get no sense at all of her not being honest, but get a real sense that God is in this with you both. When you read some of the sad stories here, you want to scream out 'he/she is cheating', its so clear, but yours wasn't like that at all. 

BTW if either of you guys want to message me privately at any time please do. :smile2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> She has gone to women friends as well, apparently. Which makes me wonder more.
> She says she realizes it was wrong NOW. I've asked her for the last 2+ years(2+ years ago there was a bigger series of events that brought me here and got my wife and myself talking more about boundaries or lack of them in some cases) if there was anything she was keeping from me that she should tell me, the answer is always "No", but then this comes up. It seems to never end. The keeping it from me bothers me as much as the act/poor boundaries to let it happen.
> 
> I asked why he went to her with this and not another man, she didn't know. I have my ideas ... low hanging fruit, emotionally compromised, yada, yada ... "but he is a godly religious man who would never do something like that" ... Yeah, Nah.
> ...


Stop right there! 

Who gave your wife the right to decide that you are not saved? :bsflag:

I didn't realise that the position of Heavenly Gatekeeper had been advertised.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Stop right there!
> 
> Who gave your wife the right to decide that you are not saved? :bsflag:
> 
> I didn't realise that the position of Heavenly Gatekeeper had been advertised.


 I've asked, believe me. Her answer was the Bible and God's word say you must have accepted Christ into your life. I accepted God into my life decades ago and to me if God and Christ are the same being in a different wrapper (along with the Holy Ghost, a.k.a. the Trinity) then I have been, if not then we need to revisit that 'false idols/profits' deal. She replied that it is in the "fruit that bears" from salvation and she did not see that in me. I pointed out how judgemental that sounded for a Christian who is not supposed to judge. I've tried to impress upon her that one doesn't have to go to a brick and mortar church and go completely overboard with study, meetings , fellowship, etc. to be saved. She agrees with that but apparently still doubts my status. I guess I need a pin or an ID card or something. 

p.s. re: Heavenly Gatekeeper I'm pretty sure Saint Peter has tenure by now. I don't think he is going anywhere.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I like to think of myself as a pretty strong Christian, albeit imperfect...like all Christians.

That said, your wife sounds like a spiritual *******. Like any form of confirmation bias, they latch onto one particular scripture to support their flawed or skewed opinion.

Given her recent interaction with this man, you might mention the following:

Mark 7:21

"For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come--sexual immorality, theft, murder"

In other words, all sin begins in one's heart.

John 8:7

"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Jesus specifically used this to illustrate the hypocrisy of self-righteousness.

In other words, you are scripturally telling her to go get bent.

And if doing so does not work, I would literally tell her as much.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I've asked, believe me. Her answer was the Bible and God's word say you must have accepted Christ into your life. I accepted God into my life decades ago and to me if God and Christ are the same being in a different wrapper (along with the Holy Ghost, a.k.a. the Trinity) then I have been, if not then we need to revisit that 'false idols/profits' deal. She replied that it is in the "fruit that bears" from salvation and she did not see that in me. I pointed out how judgemental that sounded for a Christian who is not supposed to judge. I've tried to impress upon her that one doesn't have to go to a brick and mortar church and go completely overboard with study, meetings , fellowship, etc. to be saved. She agrees with that but apparently still doubts my status. I guess I need a pin or an ID card or something.
> 
> p.s. re: Heavenly Gatekeeper I'm pretty sure Saint Peter has tenure by now. I don't think he is going anywhere.


That's not her place to do so. There are many online religious services and study groups.

I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, but your wife might actually want to start acting like a Christian in her own life?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> That's not her place to do so. There are many online religious services and study groups.
> 
> I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, but your wife might actually want to start acting like a Christian in her own life?


 She's trying and admits her shortcomings when she recognizes them and it often takes prompting (or more) for her to recognize them. She has a good heart, sometimes she doesn't see the whole picture or try to read outside of the lines and that gives her a narrower scope, as noted in this thread. Not making excuses for her, this is just the way it is at this point.
e.t.a. More details on this in the following post.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I like to think of myself as a pretty strong Christian, albeit imperfect...like all Christians.
> 
> That said, your wife sounds like a spiritual *******. Like any form of confirmation bias, they latch onto one particular scripture to support their flawed or skewed opinion.
> 
> ...


 I've pointed out the hypocrisy of why we are where we are, on a few different levels and regarding different events. She acknowledges it and states that no one is perfect and Christians sin regularly as any human does.
When I told her that she sounded like she had a self-righteous, holier than thou attitude in particular with me, she said she didn't realize it and that is not what being a good Christian is about, and needs to work on that. The problem as I see it with that is that she is in a bubble or echo chamber with her study group, church friends, and her whole social community outside of work (and some there as well) and the people in that bubble are like minded so no conflicting issues arise, but when she deals with anyone outside of that bubble, such as myself, she comes off as preachy and judgemental. Like I said in another post, Her heart is good and in the right place, sometimes the execution or presentation is flawed and I don't believe it is intentional or with ill intent even though I have suffered from it for over a decade.

p.s. @farsidejunky The funny thing about your post is you are the first to post scripture, which is a great skill IMO, and it was posted to set her straight. Quoting scripture was one of her main reasons for being attracted spiritually (Maybe more than that?) to the offender guy in this thread. Aaahh ... The irony.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I've pointed out the hypocrisy of why we are where we are, on a few different levels and regarding different events. She acknowledges it and states that no one is perfect and Christians sin regularly as any human does.
> When I told her that she sounded like she had a self-righteous, holier than thou attitude in particular with me, she said she didn't realize it and that is not what being a good Christian is about, and needs to work on that. The problem as I see it with that is that she is in a bubble or echo chamber with her study group, church friends, and her whole social community outside of work (and some there as well) and the people in that bubble are like minded so no conflicting issues arise, but when she deals with anyone outside of that bubble, such as myself, she comes off as preachy and judgemental. Like I said in another post, Her heart is good and in the right place, sometimes the execution or presentation is flawed and I don't believe it is intentional or with ill intent even though I have suffered from it for over a decade.


It's quite possible they are giving her the kind of feedback that they thinks she wants them to give her.

"My husband does X, Y, Z!"

"Well, honey, if your husband does X, Y, Z, you should do blah, blah blah!"

But what if what you _really_ did was A, B, C? And she only _thought_ you did X, Y, Z?

If she gives her friends a flawed version of you, then their advice is equally as flawed. Because it is a case of GIGO.

By the way, what I see as X, Y, Z I think of X. Y, Zed. And I know you'll see it as X, Y, Zee.

Which is why I love the music of Zed Zed Top.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> She focused on her religion through the church, study group, and Emmaus (don't get me started on that) and all this time she was moving away from me and our marriage and creating a poorer image of me in her head that she made worse and worse, she stressed about me being saved, my salvation. She started to have no respect for me or what I provided for her and treated me coldly and with disdain. She made this evolution without realizing it so thought she was doing everything right and was the same person I married. My reaction to being way down her ladder of priorities and her treatment was to lash out and verbally abuse her when we fought, trying to get a reaction out of the coldness I faced to see if she even cared. So I was the bad guy. My behavior was wrong and out in the open, while hers was cold and walled off, so it was easy to point at me as the villain.





Rubix Cubed said:


> I also did not realize how deep her disdain for me had grown. There lies the reason for her asking others for prayers and telling of my personal business.


She may not tell you exactly what she told the other man about you and your marriage, but based on the above, you have a solid idea of what she said to him, and it made her look available. You were the “the bad guy” “villain” in her life that she had “no respect for”, that she viewed “coldly and with disdain”. In other words she was ripe for the picking. The other man telling your wife about his bad marriage was the stereotypical thing for him to do as a next step in pursuing your wife, either consciously or unconsciously. With her strong negative impression of you, your wife appreciated the attention of this good guy man over the bad guy you.

The intentions of the group may be good, but in practice they are not a healthy place for your wife to be at.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> It's quite possible they are giving her the kind of feedback that they thinks she wants them to give her.
> 
> "My husband does X, Y, Z!"
> 
> ...


 You're likely correct as a matter of fact I'd guarantee it. Just like folks telling their story here, be truthful and accurate and you get accurate advice, otherwise Garbage in-Garbage out. 


"Zed's dead, baby.Zed's dead."
I heard it on the X.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I've asked, believe me. Her answer was the Bible and God's word say you must have accepted Christ into your life. I accepted God into my life decades ago and to me if God and Christ are the same being in a different wrapper (along with the Holy Ghost, a.k.a. the Trinity) then I have been, if not then we need to revisit that 'false idols/profits' deal. She replied that it is in the "fruit that bears" from salvation and she did not see that in me. I pointed out how judgemental that sounded for a Christian who is not supposed to judge. I've tried to impress upon her that one doesn't have to go to a brick and mortar church and go completely overboard with study, meetings , fellowship, etc. to be saved. She agrees with that but apparently still doubts my status. I guess I need a pin or an ID card or something.
> 
> p.s. re: Heavenly Gatekeeper I'm pretty sure Saint Peter has tenure by now. I don't think he is going anywhere.


Its actually through Jesus that we are saved. Believing in God isn't enough, and that's why He sent Jesus to earth to die for us. No I don't believe you must go to church to be a Christian, I actually had 10 years away from church in the past for reasons I wont go into here, but we are told to meet together with other believers so in one form or another that is important. We aren't supposed to be an island on our own. We 
grow and learn as we spend time with other believers.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Its actually through Jesus that we are saved. Believing in God isn't enough, and that's why He sent Jesus to earth to die for us.


So, wait. Your Christianity is better than others? I know millions of Catholics who believe that Jesus is one of three in a singular God. Are you blessed by God and/or Jesus to tell them that they are wrong?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> So, wait. Your Christianity is better than others? I know millions of Catholics who believe that Jesus is one of three in a singular God. Are you blessed by God and/or Jesus to tell them that they are wrong?


 And I will run something by everyone as well that may go with Nobody's post.
If you accept God as your Lord and believe that Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected, but state God is my Lord instead of Jesus is my Lord, that supposedly won't grant you salvation. Why? 

If you believe Jesus is a separate entity than God and you state Jesus is your lord, why aren't you worshipping a false idol if he is not God?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I didn't realise that the position of Heavenly Gatekeeper had been advertised.


Yea, sorry.... I forget to tell everyone that I've decided to retire.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> So, wait. Your Christianity is better than others? I know millions of Catholics who believe that Jesus is one of three in a singular God. Are you blessed by God and/or Jesus to tell them that they are wrong?


There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Its through Jesus Christ Gods Son that we can be saved. Its not what I say but what Gods word says.
Acts 16 v 31-32. 
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> And I will run something by everyone as well that may go with Nobody's post.
> If you accept God as your Lord and believe that Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected, but state God is my Lord instead of Jesus is my Lord, that supposedly won't grant you salvation. Why?
> 
> If you believe Jesus is a separate entity than God and you state Jesus is your lord, why aren't you worshipping a false idol if he is not God?


The Bible says that God is our Father and that Jesus is our Lord, Saviour, friend and brother. He is Gods Son.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Frankly, I think Jesus was a Buddhist too... 

I think one of your wife's biggest misalignments was to see another as a more spiritual connection when it when it was anything but... any spirituality that would take you outside your marriage is spirituality misguided.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> The Bible says that God is our Father and that Jesus is our Lord, Saviour, friend and brother. He is Gods Son.


Matthew 4:8-10, ESV Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the *Lord your God* and him only shall you serve.

Deuteronomy 6:4, ESV Hear, O Israel: The *LORD our God*, the LORD is one.

I can probably post up a dozen more and I'm not trying to create an argument, just looking for some clarity.
Is it a denominational thing?
It really can't be as simple as "you're not saying it right." if so the stakes are pretty high.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Its through Jesus Christ Gods Son that we can be saved. Its not what I say but what Gods word says.
> Acts 16 v 31-32.
> “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
> 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


The Bible says a lot of things and is open to interpretation... and then some. You are highly judgy.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator message:*

OK, folks, let's dial it down a little, please, OK?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Sorry @MattMatt 
Unfortunately, that is a bad rabbit hole. You can imagine how it is between me and my wife, it follows that path identically, without the moderator part. The roles of Mr. and Mrs. Rubix Cubed performed by NobodySpecial and Diana7 respectively.
What Diana7 earlier mentioned about unevenly yoked rings true.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Sorry @MattMatt
> Unfortunately, that is a bad rabbit hole. You can imagine how it is between me and my wife, it follows that path identically, without the moderator part. The roles of Mr. and Mrs. Rubix Cubed performed by NobodySpecial and Diana7 respectively.
> What Diana7 earlier mentioned about unevenly yoked rings true.


 @Rubix Cubed, I feel your pain to an extent. I am married to a Dr of Theology. My wife has a ThD.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> @Rubix Cubed, I feel your pain to an extent. I am married to a Dr of Theology. My wife has a ThD.


 Doesn't she have Aspergers as well?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Any time we begin to feel superior to another for any reason, the balance of calm shifts against us... this is what happens when we live life in the ego lane.

I think your wife may have fallen into thinking these unmindful thoughts because she was dealing with a perfect storm of wanting to be at a level of spirituality that she would toss aside the things that brought balance to her life for a walk on an edge of crumbling cliff to see what was thought to be a miraculous view... I do not believe this other man was more than a mirage but yet she was drawn to it.

In my experience, if one wants better one needs to understand why the path for the other was desired?

If she needs you to be enlightened at her level of spirituality in order to be worthy of marriage to her, then her struggle is really more with herself than with you... I don't believe this is how hearts are touched in faith but each has their needs and paths, the hard part is to understand the difference between the path of man's ego and the path to what spirituality should be.

It can be awful confusing at times, especially when what we desire overrides our awareness of it's cost.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The Bible says a lot of things and is open to interpretation... and then some. You are highly judgy.


How would you judge that verse and others that say the same thing? I am no theologian but the Bible is pretty clear on how we can be saved. 
God tellsus how we can be saved and its up to us to accept that or not. If you think that judgy take it up with Him.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Doesn't she have Aspergers as well?


Yes. Yes, she does.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Matthew 4:8-10, ESV Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the *Lord your God* and him only shall you serve.
> 
> Deuteronomy 6:4, ESV Hear, O Israel: The *LORD our God*, the LORD is one.
> 
> ...


Jesus hadn't come at that time. He hadn't died and risen again for us. 
I have been to churches of 6 different denominations and they all taught exactly the same on salvation because its in the Bible. 
Jesus Himself said, 'I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no one comes to the father except through me'.Its only though Him that we can be saved or have access to God.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> @Rubix Cubed, I feel your pain to an extent. I am married to a Dr of Theology. My wife has a ThD.


Matt if you look up rib in a dictionary it says to vex,irritate or annoy.
If you look up rib in the Bible it says woman.
Coincidence?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Dammed, marriage is hard as it is by itself, but when you mix it with religious mumble jumble, it really can become a battle field.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Yes. Yes, she does.


 I doff my hat to you kind sir. You must have an extreme amount of patience.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> Dammed, marriage is hard as it is by itself, but when you mix it with religious mumble jumble, it really can become a battle field.


 Sans the mumble jumble(is that a Rickyism?) part, I have to agree with you. More like a minefield. Unless maybe you met your spouse in church.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I doff my hat to you kind sir. You must have an extreme amount of patience.


Thanks.  My patience wears a bit thin, sometimes.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> She may not tell you exactly what she told the other man about you and your marriage, but based on the above, you have a solid idea of what she said to him, and it made her look available. You were the “the bad guy” “villain” in her life that she had “no respect for”, that she viewed “coldly and with disdain”. In other words she was ripe for the picking. The other man telling your wife about his bad marriage was the stereotypical thing for him to do as a next step in pursuing your wife, either consciously or unconsciously. With her strong negative impression of you, your wife appreciated the attention of this good guy man over the bad guy you.
> 
> The intentions of the group may be good, but in practice they are not a healthy place for your wife to be at.


 @TRy
Somehow I missed this earlier, not sure how, but I think this sums up the whole situation in my eyes pretty well. My wife and the group leader say different of course, and there is nothing that will sway their minds short of visible proof I guess. My wife defending that pious bag of ****s is pissing me off. She acknowledges that what he did was inappropriate but thinks there was no bad intent. I think it's been unanimous on this thread that he had less than honorable/nefarious intentions. The fact that he STILL hasn't replied to my email reply calling him out on it doesn't help matters at all and makes him look like a coward who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
I find it amusing how people think they know someone so well that they can state that that person would NEVER do something like that, and the statistics of infidelity are as high as they are. I think that proves most people have no idea how well they know someone. Then you read here and see it comes straight out of the player's handbook, it makes it hard to think otherwise. It's pissing me off typing this.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @TRy
> Somehow I missed this earlier, not sure how, but I think this sums up the whole situation in my eyes pretty well. My wife and the group leader say different of course, and there is nothing that will sway their minds short of visible proof I guess. My wife defending that pious bag of ****s is pissing me off. She acknowledges that what he did was inappropriate but thinks there was no bad intent. I think it's been unanimous on this thread that he had less than honorable/nefarious intentions. The fact that he STILL hasn't replied to my email reply calling him out on it doesn't help matters at all and makes him look like a coward who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
> I find it amusing how people think they know someone so well that they can state that that person would NEVER do something like that, and the statistics of infidelity are as high as they are. I think that proves most people have no idea how well they know someone. Then you read here and see it comes straight out of the player's handbook, it makes it hard to think otherwise. It's pissing me off typing this.


You know dude I’ve been thinking about this since yesterday and I firmly believe that the story your wife and her mentor are spinning is bs.It reminds me of these gurus who convince gullible people to send them money and also convince even more gullible women to sleep with them because it’s “Gods plan”.Your wife’s supercilious dismissal of your concerns is a huge warning sign and this prayer leader is completely ambivalent about your marriage situation.Again I’m harking back to the harmless comment.You have spent sleepless nights worrying about your marriage and these two “Holy people” dismiss your concerns out of hand and her praying for you is really rubbing your nose in the brown stuff.This attitude that we are the chosen ones and nobody outside our little clique understands is what has kept religion going and bishops in their palaces for millennia.
Your wife seems to tell you just enough to allay your fears but your gut is telling you different.It’s time to draw a line in the sand and by that I mean no private meetings with strangers in someone else’s house,tell her if she wants a prayer meeting then go to church or else a woman’s only group.And make it clear that any discussion about your private life is a deal breaker.

Diana means well and I actually have a sneaky admiration for her,she sticks to her guns and never gets riled at the digs that are thrown her way.It doesn’t mean she is always right though.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> It’s time to draw a line in the sand and by that I mean no private meetings with strangers in someone else’s house,tell her if she wants a prayer meeting then go to church or else a woman’s only group.And make it clear that any discussion about your private life is a deal breaker.
> 
> Diana means well and I actually have a sneaky admiration for her, she sticks to her guns and never gets riled at the digs that are thrown her way.It doesn’t mean she is always right though.


 At this point that's where we are on both of those points. She's NC with the pious flirt, and she knows and says she accepts that sharing private info is not acceptable. We will proceed from here and adapt accordingly if need be.

As far as @Diana7 I don't have a sneaky admiration for her, I've got the utmost respect for her. I don't always agree with her and that's been the case since before I posted this thread. But I do agree with a lot of what she says and respect her resolve to be consistent, that goes for you as well @Andy1001 . My wife loves what Diana has to say and can't stand your message. Go figure. No one likes what doesn't represent them in the best light. Personally, I think Diana minimizes some things that are important to me, by making things such as a confession after 4 years a great thing, when in actuality the only good thing is she confessed even though it took 4 years, it is still what she SHOULD have done to begin with, not some gift.
I think you, Andy, go the opposite direction and maximize with a bit of speculation that shows the worst case scenario. I naturally tend to lean that way myself, especially when all the facts are not presented to me. It's the mind movie thing, we always think the worst until proven otherwise. I also wonder if it is not a male/female thing as well. By listening intently to both of you I have found what I hope will eventually bring me peace. It's like a property settlement, nobody ends up happy. Is it fair? I can't see how. I was on the losing end of this from the get-go, but it is a way forward that I can live with.

You mentioned about the group leader entirely discounting any wrongdoing on pious flirt's part. I also feel that she was not taking into account the evidence, the lack of defending himself or apologizing, etc. but she is friends with him and remembers what he was going through at that time and says he just talked w/o thinking, so she bases all of her judgement on that friendship instead of the evidence. I made it clear I disagreed with that numerous times and did not acquiesce. Convincing her is really immaterial anyway. It makes no difference. She will either figure it out on her own or not, but it changes nothing. It's just a biased opinion.
Now convincing my wife of that does matter. She needs to recognize the opportunity or veiled threat of such an evil. She has always been one to see the good in people, just like her Mom, and showing her the realities of life vs. her previous unicorn version seems to have been a wake-up call that those intentions exist, she just doesn't want to recognize that in someone she held up on a pedestal. so I expect she may recognize the threat in a stranger, but may not in a friend or acquaintance, which is troubling since the odds are that is where the threat would come from. That just makes me more paranoid.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I can probably post up a dozen more and I'm not trying to create an argument, just looking for some clarity.
> Is it a denominational thing?
> .


People can find verses that support the notion of only worshiping one God and other verses to support there being three separate entities. I think that this is mostly because the bible is a collection of writings produced by a variety of authors. Some types of Christian churches teach of the rapture because it is "clearly in the bible", while many do not believe in the rapture. There are enough other disagreements to fill a book including issues on eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ, which list of 10 commandments is the "official" one, and faith healing. If there was clarity on about the issue you brought up, then it would have been agreed upon by now.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

The difference in @Diana7 and me is very clear.She is a woman who had a long marriage with children,she divorced her husband and stayed single for a number of years and then she met her second husband on a Christian dating site,fell in love with him and married.She has been very clear on numerous threads that her two husbands are the only men she has ever slept with and her current husband also only ever slept with Diana and his first wife.
I played the field for years,I traveled constantly and had a (God given 😇) ability to attract women and I used it to its full extent.I never tried to pick up married or engaged women,if they were wearing a ring then it was a no go area as far as I was concerned.
The reason I’m making these points is that Diana just doesn’t know how most men think,she has had a sheltered existence when it comes to the opposite sex.I’m not judging by any means but a woman or a man who has never had a ons or a weekend fling has no right telling someone what is going on in the mind of a player or what seems to be the case here a wannabe player. It’s as ridiculous as a catholic priest who practices celibacy advising married couples on their sex life.
I’m not surprised your wife hates my posts,the truth hurts even if it only partly true.

As far as me seeing the worst case scenario,in my business that’s what keeps you going when others flounder.
Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

@Rubix Cubed: There is a thread in the Private Member's Section titled "Texting with the Pastor?" that I think you may find interesting, because it shows that men in church are just men at the end of the day. If you jump to the last pages of the long thread, you will see that things are not going well for the OP's (Alittlefunnnn) marriage. Below is a link to this thread that you need to be logged into TAM to be able to access. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/403777-texting-pastor.html


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> @Rubix Cubed: There is a thread in the Private Member's Section titled "Texting with the Pastor?" that I think you may find interesting, because it shows that men in church are just men at the end of the day. If you jump to the last pages of the long thread, you will see that things are not going well for the OP's (Alittlefunnnn) marriage. Below is a link to this thread that you need to be logged into TAM to be able to access.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/403777-texting-pastor.html


 Oh yeah, Know it well and followed it from the beginning, although I must say that the pastor in that one appears to be innocent and informed alittlefun, albeit discreetly, by showing him one of her texts. They were all 1 sided from her to him apparently. There are plenty of other posts on the boards that follow that follow the church cheater vein as well. I have a friend who's first wife ran off with their pastor. It just goes to show that the church is just as susceptible to shady behavior as anywhere else. I had hoped my wife was above all that but her admiration for the pious flirt proves me wrong, even though I don't know of anything she did wrong other than hide it from me. It's bothersome that her loyalties are so easily swayed by something as simple as appearing "Godly".


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Oh yeah, Know it well and followed it from the beginning, although I must say that the pastor in that one appears to be innocent and informed alittlefun, albeit discreetly, by showing him one of her texts. They were all 1 sided from her to him apparently. There are plenty of other posts on the boards that follow that follow the church cheater vein as well. I have a friend who's first wife ran off with their pastor.


 Since the wife had deleted the texts on her side, the pastor had the ability to selectively edit them on his side so as to show the OP (and more importantly to the pastor his wife) that he was innocent. Thus the texts that the pastor decide to show the OP proved nothing. As an FYI, my wife has a childhood friend whose first husband was a pastor that had an affair with someone from the church. Amazingly, he married his affair partner, and is still a pastor somewhere else.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I accepted God into my life decades ago and to me if God and Christ are the same being in a different wrapper (along with the Holy Ghost, a.k.a. the Trinity) then I have been, if not then we need to revisit that 'false idols/profits' deal.





Rubix Cubed said:


> Matthew 4:8-10, ESV Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the *Lord your God* and him only shall you serve.
> Deuteronomy 6:4, ESV Hear, O Israel: The *LORD our God*, the LORD is one.
> I can probably post up a dozen more and I'm not trying to create an argument, just looking for some clarity.
> Is it a denominational thing?
> It really can't be as simple as "you're not saying it right." if so the stakes are pretty high.


I see two issues going on between you and your wife:

1.	Who is Jesus and what difference does He make as to how or if one worships God? Jesus, God, Holy Spirit???
2.	Isn’t it enough to just believe in God? Is going to church or anything else required to be a believer in God (or a Christian)?

There are tons of verses saying God is one. You posted an important one for both Jew and Christians. Yes, there is one God.
Jesus said there is one God, and said that He is God, and the only way to God is through Him (Jesus.)

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD [YHVH] is our God, the LORD [YHVH] is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4 

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30 KJV, NIV, NASB…etc.

“Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6 NASB

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

++
Regarding Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit being all aspects of the One True God, YHVH:
When Jesus went back to His home and throne in Heaven, He did not abandon us to never be able to hear or be led by Him anymore. He still speaks to us, leads us, comforts us by His Spirit. His Spirit is not physical, like his body is, it is a separate aspect of God/Him, but nonetheless our spirit can commune with His spirit.

“Now Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.” Luke 4:1

“But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate [Holy Spirit] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John 16:7

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees him nor knows Him, But you do know Him, for he abides with you and will be in you…” John 14:15-17

“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.” Romans 8:26

"He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.” John 7:39

“But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” John 16:7

“But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you”. John 16:7

“If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.” Gal 5:25

"When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.” Mark 13:11

“But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 1 Cor 12:7-11




Rubix Cubed said:


> I've tried to impress upon her that one doesn't have to go to a brick and mortar church and go completely overboard with study, meetings , fellowship, etc. to be saved. She agrees with that but apparently still doubts my status. I guess I need a pin or an ID card or something.


You might know God, but you won’t grow or be as useful to Him by keeping to yourself. You need to be around other Christians, doing 4 things, to grow in knowledge of God, to share God’s love, or you will become stagnant and unuseful. Perhaps you could also lose your faith as well. 


"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror." James 2:19 New Living Translation

“And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:42 NASB

“…not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.” Heb 10:25


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I
> 
> You might know God, but you won’t grow or be as useful to Him by keeping to yourself. You need to be around other Christians, doing 4 things, to grow in knowledge of God, to share God’s love, or you will become stagnant and unuseful. Perhaps you could also lose your faith as well.


 I can completely agree with #1. As far as #4 goes, if I have to be around others back slapping me to keep my faith, then my faith must be pretty weak.
I have been turned off more by pushy proselytizers than ever turned on, and it seems to me it makes more sense to share his word OUTSIDE of the church in a way that doesn't shut people off. Inside the church, you are literally preaching to the choir.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> Since the wife had deleted the texts on her side, the pastor had the ability to selectively edit them on his side so as to show the OP (and more importantly to the pastor his wife) that he was innocent. Thus the texts that the pastor decide to show the OP proved nothing.


Touche' . Very true, and I thought about that scenario after I posted my reply.
Walloped's story on SI (he's here now as well) is about the quintessential script of the church cheater, and it bothers me and has since I read it. Too close to home.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Pious flirt...LOLZ.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Touche' . Very true, and I thought about that scenario after I posted my reply.o
> Walloped's story on SI (he's here now as well) is about the quintessential script of the church cheater, and it bothers me.


This is my take on “Church” people such as your wife’s group and especially her mentor.
They see themselves as an insular group,they consider themselves “In the know” and while they will be very friendly and nice to strangers they never give an inch.The prayer leaders response to your concerns is an example.Also her praying for you is so patronizing I would have been unable to stop myself telling her exactly what to do with her meaningless platitudes.
When someone’s answer to a question or a difference of opinion is to start quoting scripture then it’s time to change the subject,and this thread is starting to go a little biblical for my taste.😇

But above all @aRubix Cubed I want you to remember this.
These people judge everybody but themselves by their actions.
They judge themselves by their intentions.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> This is my take on “Church” people such as your wife’s group and especially her mentor.
> They see themselves as an insular group,they consider themselves “In the know” and while they will be very friendly and nice to strangers they never give an inch.The prayer leaders response to your concerns is an example.Also her praying for you is so patronizing I would have been unable to stop myself telling her exactly what to do with her meaningless platitudes.
> When someone’s answer to a question or a difference of opinion is to start quoting scripture then it’s time to change the subject,and this thread is starting to go a little biblical for my taste.&#55357;&#56839;
> 
> ...


 I agree with much of the above sans the generalization that they are ALL that way, as I've seen it as well.
I do disagree with your take on the leader praying. Her prayer was more about my wife and I working this out and making a better marriage. I wish I had thought to record the whole meeting, with everyone's permission, so I could review it and pick up anything that I missed.
The bolded seems pretty accurate for many of them, but that also holds true for many non-Christians as well.Pretty much anyone who thinks strongly their cause is just. It's a pisser either way.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> BTW if either of you guys want to message me privately at any time please do. :smile2:


 @Diana7
Your PMs are turned off.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I can completely agree with #1. As far as #4 goes, if I have to be around others back slapping me to keep my faith, then my faith must be pretty weak.
> I have been turned off more by pushy proselytizers than ever turned on, and it seems to me it makes more sense to share his word OUTSIDE of the church in a way that doesn't shut people off. Inside the church, you are literally preaching to the choir.


1. faith and preaching to the choir

Christians live in the same world as non Christians. We have the same pressures, disappointments, temptations. 

God created people as social beings. He also knows that we can serve, encourage, teach, and love one another if we get together with Him as our main focus. That is Church.

It is not always the faith that grows weak, it is the flesh.

Even athletes have coaches and fans that encourage them to keep on going to win the race when they are tired and want to stop for a breath or to ease the pain. Why would an athlete who has trained for a race need to be encouraged to keep going? Has the athlete lost his desire to win just because he is tired and hurting? Usually not. It is just that he is pushing himself past his physical limits, and his body is crying out so loudly that it is in danger of overtaking his will to finish the race.

I cannot count the times I have been struggling with something and then I hear another Christian, whether it is the Pastor, a friend, a Bible Study partner, or a You Tube clip quote a Bible verse that addresses an aspect of my struggle, encouraging me, or sometimes completely re-framing my issue so I can see it in a different light and keep going forward.

Last September I had a major re-direction as a result of studying the Bible and discussing the chapters with other Christians who were studying the same chapters.

No one spoke what God made me realize. The understanding came as a result of everything I was reading and hearing with God's Spirit sorting it out inside of me.

2. back slapers

I don't know how you can say that, since you do not know what is in every person's heart and mind. 

Respectfully, I want to say that you sound very judgmental of Christians.

I've been to shallow churches, where most of the people don't open up about what is really going on in their lives and they don't want to hear the difficult parts of other people's lives. Even in those churches my family has met some honest, open, vulnerable people who want to minister to others, or be encouraged themselves. 

When a church has mostly superficial or closed off people, our family has moved on to find a group of people, or "church" where people are genuine and not afraid to acknowledge that everyone's lives are not always perfect.

Our current Pastor has pointed out multiple times that life and relationships are messy...for Christians and non Christians. He knows some (many) people sitting in front of him are hurting, frustrated, disappointed, etc. We are all encouraged to listen, help and encourage one another. 

There is a couple at our church who are greeters. On the surface they seem like happy people who have it all together. Their adult son died a couple of years ago, and they still struggle with sadness over that. Are they "back slappers" because they forget about their pain for a few minutes and smile as they greet people at the door? I think being greeters is a great ministry for them. They are able to forget about their personal pain for a while and bring some happiness into other people's lives when they greet them with a smile and a hug. 

There is a current poster here on TAM who is so obsessed with his own disappointing life that he is a total downer for his wife and she is contemplating divorcing him. He would be better off if he took a few minutes to put himself aside and bless others, like the couple at our church. Then someone could catch him during a good moment and accuse him of being a "back slapper."


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> but that also holds true for many non-Christians as well.Pretty much anyone who thinks strongly their cause is just. It's a pisser either way.


Pool boy or bible study boy-

Your wife imparted intimate details about your personal life that she knew you hated her doing.

If the pool boy wanted to "pray" for you and your marriage in between chlorine addition and scrubbing-

How would that matter?

Your wife is hiding behind the skirts of gospel, bible studies with the opposite sex and being naive?
What? Who me? We were praying for YOU.

I know you don't like me and think I should be banned but I've read your posts to other posters ...

You are not the poster boy for patience and kindness

Judge not lest you be Judged and all that good stuff.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Pool boy or bible study boy-
> 
> Your wife imparted intimate details about your personal life that she knew you hated her doing.
> 
> ...


I realized something about religion once and I have never shared it with anyone but here goes.
There is a lot of hiding places in a church but there are a lot more in a bible.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I I wish I had thought to record the whole meeting, with everyone's permission, so I could review it and pick up anything that I missed.


If you ask for their permission to record the meeting they will be very careful with what they say. As long as one person (you) know the meeting is being recorded, you are legal. You don't owe them any advance warning that you are recording the meeting, even if they are Christians.

I record every important meeting I'm in since a Pastor yelled at me and falsely accused me during a phone conversation years ago. I told my husband about what was said, and he took it to the elders. The pastor denied it, and of course they believed him. Had I recorded that conversation, the Pastor would have been forced to admit what he said, and held accountable. We left that church.

Later on someone from that church called me to ask why we weren't going anymore. When I told her what the pastor said to me, she said that she had heard a similar story from another woman whose family left.

That church was actually the only one we attended where many of the people seemed fake. We weren't fake, and that is why the pastor didn't like me. He said that "I was like a woman who used to attend." He later denied having said that, along with other things.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> I realized something about religion once and I have never shared it with anyone but here goes.
> There is a lot of hiding places in a church but there are a lot more in a bible.


Jim Jones could recite scripture that would put most to shame.

That little Guyana bible study did not end well for the faithful flock.

The Boys at the Vatican?

And then there are your home towners...


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Respectfully, I want to say that you sound very judgmental of Christians.


 Respect is earned and it's a two way street. It's a reap what you sow thing.
I went to church for a decade and a half when I was young ,before I stopped. I saw the hypocritical backstabbers, the money changers (folks who use church for business) still alive and well, and people who were at church for every reason but God. I choose not to be around that even if it means I miss out on the good people that are there.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Jim Jones could recite scripture that would put most to shame.
> 
> That little Guyana bible study did not end well for the faithful flock.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Cardinal Francis Law could give the mafia a few lessons.
TOM McCarthy **** on those paedo bastards from on high.
Which of them believed he was doing the lords work do you think?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Sans the mumble jumble(is that a Rickyism?) part, I have to agree with you. More like a minefield. Unless maybe you met your spouse in church.


Well I have found that being in a Christian marriage is great, but if you dont share the faith its hard.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Respect is earned and it's a two way street. It's a reap what you sow thing.
> I went to church for a decade and a half when I was young ,before I stopped. I saw the hypocritical backstabbers, the money changers (folks who use church for business) still alive and well, and people who were at church for every reason but God. I choose not to be around that even if it means I miss out on the good people that are there.


I don't find that here. It seems to be the genuine believers who go to church here. No we aren't perfect but we are all out for God.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Well I have found that being in a Christian marriage is great, but if you dont share the faith its hard.


Here is the Point-

Religion does not bathe an evil person in goodness and light and many times draws the moth to the flame and we all know how that ends up.

Some of the most vile and destructive in world history could out scripture you Diana and then make it a glowing Sunday love sermon.

And one of them might be your next door neighbor that you invite over for pint after service.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Pool boy or bible study boy-
> 
> Your wife imparted intimate details about your personal life that she knew you hated her doing.
> 
> ...


I'll try to respond point by point.

I'm with you on most of this with the exception she hasn't tried to hide behind "it" since she told me, she certainly seemed to before that though. Using it originally to justify to herself that hiding it from me was OK for those 4 years, then switching up to she was scared how I would respond to being told.

Doesn't matter a bit to me. I'm not hung up on the circumstance and I cut no more slack to the pious flirt than I do the "poolboy" (which seems pointless since I don't have a pool, remind me to fire him). You seem to be the one hung up on the circumstance. If anything I hold the pious flirt MORE accountable because he, being a Christian, knows better, there is no excuse for it.

To be clear, I don't dislike you. I do not like when you storm into threads with obvious/useless information and express it in a way that is provoking and trying to push the OP's buttons like a troll. This post wasn't one of those posts. It seemed to have a purpose beyond trying to get a rise out of someone. When I replied to you earlier I had just read your attack on donesies and then me, just for context.

re: My patience and kindness. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I think maybe you read me wrong. I have NEVER claimed to be patient or full of kindness, and I don't think I have tried to fool anyone, especially on TAM or this thread, into thinking that I am. I'm trying to do better but I also prefer to cut to the chase and be succinct. In the words of Jules Winnfield "_But I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying *real hard* to be the shepherd._"


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> The difference in @Diana7 and me is very clear.She is a woman who had a long marriage with children,she divorced her husband and stayed single for a number of years and then she met her second husband on a Christian dating site,fell in love with him and married.She has been very clear on numerous threads that her two husbands are the only men she has ever slept with and her current husband also only ever slept with Diana and his first wife.
> I played the field for years,I traveled constantly and had a (God given ��) ability to attract women and I used it to its full extent.I never tried to pick up married or engaged women,if they were wearing a ring then it was a no go area as far as I was concerned.
> The reason I’m making these points is that Diana just doesn’t know how most men think,she has had a sheltered existence when it comes to the opposite sex.I’m not judging by any means but a woman or a man who has never had a ons or a weekend fling has no right telling someone what is going on in the mind of a player or what seems to be the case here a wannabe player. It’s as ridiculous as a catholic priest who practices celibacy advising married couples on their sex life.
> I’m not surprised your wife hates my posts,the truth hurts even if it only partly true.
> ...


You are so very wrong about me, I have seen and experienced far more of this sort of thing that you think. I have had multiple people in my family cheat or be cheated on, with divorces caused by it, including my dad who had a long affair with another woman and probably several more as well. My first husbands father cheated on his mum, his grand father did the same, my grandfather on my dads side did the same and 2 sisters in law cheated. 
I have 2 brothers, a son and 2 step sons and a Son in law, so yes I spend lots of time with adult men. I have also been married to one man(not a Christian who had had sex with several women before we met), for 25 years, and one for 12 years so yes I know men fairly well. 
However not all men are players and most men in the church aren't in my experience of mixing with Christians for a lot of my 61 years. 
My life has been anything but sheltered. A lady I once spoke to who was a trained counsellor said that she had never met anyone who has been though more in life than I had. I just don't go on about it or mention it on a public forum and I am not going to now. This is as well as what I have already mentioned. 

You have no proof at all of what this man is like, presumably you think he is like you and the men you know?Actually there are many men in the church who are pretty naive when it comes to women, and many more who are genuine good moral guys. 

You are judging a man you know nothing about, not all men are just out to get a woman to bed believe me.


You are also presumably not a churchgoer/Christian so have little experience of Christians and the groups they hold.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Here is the Point-
> 
> Religion does not bathe an evil person in goodness and light and many times draws the moth to the flame and we all know how that ends up.
> 
> ...


I have had experience of being married to a non Christian and then a Christian. I know which is by far the best. I would never marry someone who didn't share my faith again. 
I am sure there are a tiny number of people who aren't genuine Christians in the church, but to be honest they could far more easily get a quick lay outside the church than in it, so why bother? They could go to a night club or bar and probably meet a women who was too drunk to what what she was doing and take advantage of her and have sex with her that night. Or they could find a prostitute. 
My experience of Christian men is that most have strong moral values and bags of integrity.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> You are so very wrong about me, I have seen and experienced far more of this sort of thing that you think. I have had multiple people in my family cheat or be cheated on, with divorces caused by it, including my dad who had a long affair with another woman and probably several more as well. My first husbands father cheated on his mum, his grand father did the same, my grandfather on my dads side did the same and 2 sisters in law cheated.
> I have 2 brothers, a son and 2 step sons and a Son in law, so yes I spend lots of time with adult men. I have also been married to one man(not a Christian who had had sex with several women before we met), for 25 years, and one for 12 years so yes I know men fairly well.
> However not all men are players and most men in the church aren't in my experience of mixing with Christians for a lot of my 61 years.
> My life has been anything but sheltered. A lady I once spoke to who was a trained counsellor said that she had never met anyone who has been though more in life than I had. I just don't go on about it or mention it on a public forum and I am not going to now. This is as well as what I have already mentioned.
> ...


 @Diana7 I am not criticizing you in any way,I actually said in a previous post that I admire your self belief and how you never let people’s comments about you affect your opinions.
All of these things you listed are important but they are not YOUR experiences.You have seen others having these things happen in their lives but they didn’t happen to you.While your observations are valid that is what they are,observations.
You are also judging a man you know nothing about just as everyone else posting on this thread except the op is doing.
I have a fair idea what your opinion of me is but I would like say one thing in my defense.I have been with my girlfriend for about six and a half years and from the first day I met her I have never acted inappropriately with another woman.
@Diana7 I had posted when I seen your edit where you presumed I wasn’t a Christian or a churchgoer.You may be surprised to know that I was an altar boy when I was younger and both my parents were religious.My mother died almost seven years ago in London in a car accident and my father took his own life a few hours later.That is when I saw the Church in its money grabbing splendor.Because of some obscure law my Dad couldn’t be buried with my Mom because he committed a sin by taking his own life.
However a Catholic nun who was in charge of the graveyard in Scotland where my family plot is was very happy to make an exception so that my parents could be buried together.
When I paid her twenty thousand pounds as a “donation” towards upkeep of the graveyard that is.
At the lowest point in my life,the church who my parents had supported generously for decades turned on me,but as is always the way,money talks.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Well I have found that being in a Christian marriage is great, but if you dont share the faith its hard.


 Glad to see you still here Diana. I was starting to think you had been run off.

I completely agree with your quote. My wife chose to go that direction 15 years ago, we had already been together for 15 years. Does that make me the bad guy because I don't profess my faith "right" or the same way as her when she changed the rules? Seems to me my bill of goods got changed, not hers. I'm trying to give everything a chance theology wise, hence all the questions, but I'm a very practical and pragmatic person, and blind faith doesn't fit into that mindset very well. I haven't studied the bible enough to have reasoned faith at this point. You stated that God works slowly sometimes, maybe that's the case.
I feel like I'm being pressured to buy into it whether I feel it or not, just to try to have a good relationship with my wife, and that is definitely not what being a Christian is about. Even from what has been said, I believe in all the tenets, I'm just not "doing it right", for lack of a better term. I know I have a relationship with God because I've been in some extremely dangerous situations that I believe he helped me live through.

I find it odd that it is this complicated for me yet you hear of people being born again in the moments between an accident/or being attacked and them bleeding out and dying at the scene, yet that is accepted as true faith and "doing it right".


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> @Diana7 I am not criticizing you in any way,I actually said in a previous post that I admire your self belief and how you never let people’s comments about you affect your opinions.
> All of these things you listed are important but they are not YOUR experiences.You have seen others having these things happen in their lives but they didn’t happen to you.While your observations are valid that is what they are,observations.
> You are also judging a man you know nothing about just as everyone else posting on this thread except the op is doing.
> I have a fair idea what your opinion of me is but I would like say one thing in my defense.I have been with my girlfriend for about six and a half years and from the first day I met her I have never acted inappropriately with another woman.


Well they are my experiences when they have deeply affected me and my close family and my husband ex cheated on him as well. Of course there was my ex husband's appalling behaviour as well but I am not going into that on a public forum.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I choose not to be around that even if it means I miss out on the good people that are there.


I don't think that there are truly "good" people anywhere. In fact, it seems that Church can bring out the warts in people, which is a good thing.

People join "Meet-up" clubs to meet people with similar intersts. People go to church to corporately learn about the Bible and worship God. 

It is sad that your experience with Church as a child was so bad. There are hypocrites in every walk of life. People are people, even in Church. 

Our son is also down on church because of hypocrites: A pedophile tried to groom him when he was 13. He had no idea, as the guy gave him cool gifts and let him do fun things we wouldn't let him do. He was angry the guy got kicked out for some of the bad things he showed him. My husband had an affair. I was not always the happy go lucky mom. We were too strict. He blames it all on "the church" instead of on people being people. He has met lots of bad people outside of church, and now he says "people suck." He still blames the Church for having those sucky people in it, and won't set foot in it. I think he thinks that God failed him.

Christians don't become perfect when they go to church.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Glad to see you still here Diana. I was starting to think you had been run off.
> 
> I completely agree with your quote. My wife chose to go that direction 15 years ago, we had already been together for 15 years. Does that make me the bad guy because I don't profess my faith "right" or the same way as her when she changed the rules? Seems to me my bill of goods got changed, not hers. I'm trying to give everything a chance theology wise, hence all the questions, but I'm a very practical and pragmatic person, and blind faith doesn't fit into that mindset very well. I haven't studied the bible enough to have reasoned faith at this point. You stated that God works slowly sometimes, maybe that's the case.
> I feel like I'm being pressured to buy into it whether I feel it or not, just to try to have a good relationship with my wife, and that is definitely not what being a Christian is about. Even from what has been said, I believe in all the tenets, I'm just not "doing it right", for lack of a better term. I know I have a relationship with God because I've been in some extremely dangerous situations that I believe he helped me live through.
> ...


Sorry I have had a bad cold and I dont know why you cant send me a message as I have had some in the past. Its odd. 

The thing is that many believe in God or a god, but that's isn't what saves us. Its Jesus who came to take all of our rubbish and sins etc on Himself when He was crucified and came back to life. That's the difference between a Christian and someone who just believes in God. The Israelites tried and failed miserably to get themselves saved, it cant be done, thats why we need Jesus Christ. 

Yes you are right that it only takes a second to be saved, but that's through Jesus Christ. He has made the way back to God for us. How about you chat to Him about this? He is fine with our questions, honesty and confusion.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I find it odd that it is this complicated for me yet you hear of people being born again in the moments between an accident/or being attacked and them bleeding out and dying at the scene, yet that is accepted as true faith and "doing it right".


Like the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Perhaps had that thief lived, we would know if he truly "deserved" to be saved, based on *how* he lived. Maybe people who die right after they believe in Jesus have it easier.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I don't think that there are truly "good" people anywhere. In fact, it seems that Church can bring out the warts in people, which is a good thing.
> 
> People join "Meet-up" clubs to meet people with similar intersts. People go to church to corporately learn about the Bible and worship God.
> 
> ...


That's what I don't understand. That anyone expects us to be perfect just because we follow Jesus Christ. We are all works in progress. I often hear this hyporcite argument, but again, who said that we are supposed to be perfect?
Yes people hurt us, yes they let us down,(and we hurt and let people down ourselves), but that's surely why we need Jesus Christ, to help us to be better people? Avoiding church just because of the shock of the fact that those who go aren't perfect seems odd, because none of us are. As they say, if you find a perfect church don't go because you will ruin it. 
God isn't church either. Church is just a place we go to help and support each other in our weaknesses and struggles and worship God.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Like the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Perhaps had that thief lived, we would know if he truly "deserved" to be saved, based on *how* he lived. Maybe people who die right after they believe in Jesus have it easier.


One of my favourite stories. :smile2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> @Diana7 I am not criticizing you in any way,I actually said in a previous post that I admire your self belief and how you never let people’s comments about you affect your opinions.
> All of these things you listed are important but they are not YOUR experiences.You have seen others having these things happen in their lives but they didn’t happen to you.While your observations are valid that is what they are,observations.
> You are also judging a man you know nothing about just as everyone else posting on this thread except the op is doing.
> I have a fair idea what your opinion of me is but I would like say one thing in my defense.I have been with my girlfriend for about six and a half years and from the first day I met her I have never acted inappropriately with another woman.
> ...


You are referring to the RC church which I wouldn't go near for those sorts of reasons(and many others). Quite honestly they are just awful in so many ways and asking for money for that was appalling. 

My mum committed suicide and her ashes were scattered on her churches gardens (Anglican), and her vicar did a short service for us. There was no problem, no request for money. She had been going to that church for many years. Its not at all Biblical not to bury those who have killed themselves in church cemeteries, that's one of their man made rules. But if they have that rule then apparently it doesnt apply if you can afford a lot of money.:surprise:

I dont think badly of you, I am just sad that you haven't met many men in your life who behave with integrity and decency. There are so many men like that in the church. I have met loads. My best friend from school married a Baptist minister who we both knew, a great man of God. My uncle was an Anglican Bishop, again such a wonderful man.My own husband as well, a really good man. SO many others.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

No one "deserves" to be saved. It is only by God's mercy that any of us have the opportunity to accept Jesus' gift of his own death for our wrongdoings.

However, when one truly believes in Jesus, their lives bear fruit. If one does not bear the fruit of a Christian walk, God knows their heart isn't really in it. 

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me." Matthew 15:8

We are not the judge, meaning we are not in the position to condemn someone to hell. However we do judge people in that we can decide if we want to trust someone, promote them, be friends with them, recommend them, etc. A person's fruit will show or not show, and whether or not it is evident will determine how people respond to them.

Those people you knew at church, who were hypocrites, had no godly fruit, and thus you rejected them. They will never be your business partners or friends. You judged them to decide if you wanted anything to do with them. But God judges their hearts and decides if they go to heaven or not.

He also looks at you and your fruit. He knows what He is looking for as far as fruit that proves you are one of His.

Good article on the fruit of a Christian:

https://bible.org/illustration/christian-fruit


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> It is sad that your experience with Church as a child was so bad. There are hypocrites in every walk of life. People are people, even in Church.
> 
> 
> 
> Christians don't become perfect when they go to church.


 To clarify, I still see it today. Not even the same city I grew up in. I have worked with numerous people who will screw you all week just to be forgiven on Sunday so they can do it all over again.

I realize Christians don't become perfect but shouldn't they be held to a higher level of behavior when it comes to sinning? I think so. That's where the saying Practice what you preach came from. There are only two types that I despise more than a hypocrite and that's a liar/cheat and a thief.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To clarify, I still see it today. Not even the same city I grew up in. I have worked with numerous people who will screw you all week just to be forgiven on Sunday so they can do it all over again.
> 
> I realize Christians don't become perfect but shouldn't they be held to a higher level of behavior when it comes to sinning? I think so. That's where the saying Practice what you preach came from. There are only two types that I despise more than a hypocrite and that's a liar/cheat and a thief.


Well most genuine believers do try and live a moral life .They do believe that sex is for marriage only, and that lying is wrong and that we mustn't cheat or steal or be rude or offensive to others or use bad language etc. That we should help and support those in need etc. 

if someone thinks its OK to live badly all week and get forgiven on Sunday they just don't get what being a Christian is all about. I think that's the RC influences you have had again. The old confession box. That's not Biblical either BTW, we can confess straight to God, we don't need a man to do it to. 

Most churches are nothing like the RC ones. They are far more relaxed and friendly and welcoming.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> That's what I don't understand. That anyone expects us to be perfect just because we follow Jesus Christ. We are all works in progress. I often hear this hyporcite argument, but again, who said that we are supposed to be perfect?
> 
> Yes people hurt us, yes they let us down,(and we hurt and let people down ourselves), but that's surely why we need Jesus Christ, to help us to be better people? Avoiding church just because of the shock of the fact that those who go aren't perfect seems odd, because none of us are. As they say, if you find a perfect church don't go because you will ruin it.
> God isn't church either. Church is just a place we go to help and support each other in our weaknesses and struggles and worship God.


 When you judge others by whether they worship "right" or not, I'd posit you open the door to be judged by your own standard. @Andy1001 said it in one of his posts : 


> These people judge everybody but themselves by their actions.
> They judge themselves by their intentions.


 I am not "avoiding" church, I don't like it. Do you think God would want you to do something that at a basal level you disagree with and makes you miserable, just to worship him? I've been told by many church goers that you don't have to go to church to be a Christian.
I also have stated before that I believe in God. I believe Jesus is his son and he died for our sins and was resurrected. But because I don't go to church or Bible studies,or act like everyone who does, I'm doing it wrong?


I have no Roman Catholic background and know little about it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To clarify, I still see it today. Not even the same city I grew up in. I have worked with numerous people who will screw you all week just to be forgiven on Sunday so they can do it all over again.
> 
> I realize Christians don't become perfect but shouldn't they be held to a higher level of behavior when it comes to sinning? I think so. That's where the saying Practice what you preach came from. There are only two types that I despise more than a hypocrite and that's a liar/cheat and a thief.


Rubix you have read my thread so you know I was supposed to get married about eighteen months ago but called off the wedding.About a year beforehand when things were going fine my then fiancée and me were discussing where we would have the ceremony and she was insisting on the local church near where we lived.We approached the priest and asked him about holding the ceremony in his church but he was really snotty with me and told me I would need proof from other parishes that I had lived in that I was a regular churchgoer.Basically anywhere I had lived for more than a few weeks I would have to get a letter from the parish saying I had attended regularly.
That wasn’t going to happen.
When we got back together after the breakup some bad weather hit MA and the church roof was damaged.The parish started fundraising and one of the ideas was an all night sponsored sleep out and my girlfriend was asked to join.She was pregnant so I wasn’t keen on her being out all night in the cold so I asked the chairman of the parish committee how much was needed and I paid for all the repairs.The following Sunday HE was thanked from the altar by the priest for his hard work fundraising but my name wasn’t mentioned.(I wasn’t there,my girlfriends sister told me)I didn’t really care to be honest but it was common knowledge that I had paid for the roof.
But as they say the plot thickens lol.
A few weeks later the heating boiler burst and the interior was flooded.The next day the priest by pure coincidence (yeah) happened to be in the area I live and called to see me.He explained that upon reflection he could see his way into letting me and my gf use the church for the babies christening and if we decided to have a wedding in the future that could be arranged too.He then,just as an afterthought (again,yeah)mentioned how expensive a new heating boiler was going to cost.
I knew I had him on the ropes so just to make him sweat I explained that the baby was going to have two godmothers who were gay women and how did the church feel about that.He said he would get back to me.
I’m still waiting lol.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@Andy1001,
Rhetorical question for you.
So who acted more like Christ (that is the intent of Christianity), You or the priest?


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I'll try to respond point by point.
> 
> I'm with you on most of this with the exception she hasn't tried to hide behind "it" since she told me, she certainly seemed to before that though. Using it originally to justify to herself that hiding it from me was OK for those 4 years, then switching up to she was scared how I would respond to being told.
> 
> ...


I'm going to try again and I appreciate your feedback about my responses . I'm certainly not a troll but like you, I do sometime write responses that are a product of loss of what could be for a lack of a better word patience.

At any rate- let us all assume that you and wife are happily agnostic. You don't go to bible study and don't own own a pool, so no sexy pool dude.

Your wife goes to yoga once a week with the girls and over Chai Tea- your wife discusses all kinds of personal deets that she KNOWS YOU DO NOT Want her to discuss.

One of the Chai worshipping Yoga gal tells her husband that your wife has never had an orgasm in your entire marriage and dude calls you and spills the deets of the yoga Gal meet up discussion topics.


When confronted your wife confesses , says they were trying to get that Chakra balanced so Orgasms could come her way and promises to never talk to Yoga Gals about anything other than their down dog pose.

Would you be posting?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @Andy1001,
> Rhetorical question for you.
> So who acted more like Christ (that is the intent of Christianity), You or the priest?


Well, I provided shelter for his flock.😇😇😇
In case anyone is interested the baby was christened in Edinburgh with one godfather and one (gay) godmother.
It will be a cold day in hell,never mind Boston when I get married in that money grabbing *******s church.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> You may be surprised to know that I was an altar boy when I was younger and both my parents were religious. My mother died almost seven years ago in London in a car accident and my father took his own life a few hours later.That is when I saw the Church in its money grabbing splendor. Because of some obscure law my Dad couldn’t be buried with my Mom because he committed a sin by taking his own life.
> However a Catholic nun who was in charge of the graveyard in Scotland where my family plot is was very happy to make an exception so that my parents could be buried together.
> When I paid her twenty thousand pounds as a “donation” towards upkeep of the graveyard that is.
> At the lowest point in my life, the church who my parents had supported generously for decades turned on me, but as is always the way, money talks.


I am so sorry that both your parents died so tragically. It is bad enough to lose one's parents (mine are also both gone) but to lose them they way you did must be very painful.

And on top of the great loss you endured, your parent's Church betrayed them and you.

I too was Catholic. Catholicism actually kept me away from God through their man made sacraments, mass, memorized prayers, and rituals...also "Catholic guilt" was a way to control people. I desperately wanted to know God and tried to through that religion, but I never felt God's presence.

I finally realized that the king has no clothes and left Catholicism, calling myself a "nothing" for 12 years. God Himself showed up for me in my times of need and I am thankful that I did not die from my own stupidity before knowing Jesus.

Anyone can find His peace and love simply through reading His word for one's self, and in spending time with others who share a love for His salvation through Jesus.

I encourage you to not give up on God just because of crappy things that humans do.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To clarify, I still see it today. Not even the same city I grew up in. I have worked with numerous people who will screw you all week just to be forgiven on Sunday so they can do it all over again.
> 
> I realize Christians don't become perfect but shouldn't they be held to a higher level of behavior when it comes to sinning? I think so. That's where the saying Practice what you preach came from. There are only two types that I despise more than a hypocrite and that's a liar/cheat and a thief.


Most Christians have a conscience and are sincere, and you know that. I think you are using hypocritical people as an excuse to keep your own distance from God.

My husband worked for a man like you described 22 years ago. Last year we found out that that man, his two sons and one of their wives are currently in federal prison for their white collar crimes which mounted to $26 million dollars.:surprise: What father, cloaking himself with Christianity, teaches his own sons how to steal from Christians? Wouldn't he be condemning himself and them to hell?

I don't believe he was a Christian at all. He pretended to be one to gain the trust of Christians so they would entrust their money to him.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> Most Christians have a conscience and are sincere, and you know that. I think you are using hypocritical people as an excuse to keep your own distance from God.
> .


Well- that is quite the stretch.

I think he does not like his wife talking to bible study dude.

OP- are you using all of this to play hide and seek with God? Feeling guilty about your lack of church attendance and projecting this onto your pious wife and any man in Bible Study?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

sandcastle said:


> Well- that is quite the stretch.
> 
> I think he does not like his wife talking to bible study dude.
> 
> OP- are you using all of this to play hide and seek with God? Feeling guilty about your lack of church attendance and projecting this onto your pious wife and any man in Bible Study?


That was in response to several posts of his pointing at hypocritical Christians as another reason he doesn't like church or to be around Christians...if you have read all the posts. We weren't talking about his wife, or the bible study guy.

sandcastle, you seem to be passive aggressive and to enjoy throwing in the stone, rather than adding something constructive to the conversation.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> In case anyone is interested the baby was christened in Edinburgh


I am just wondering why you christened the baby? Isn't that a promise to raise the child in the Church and to teach the child about the God of the Bible?

If I didn't believe in a religion, didn't read or believe in their holy book, and didn't respect their institution, I would never dedicate my child to that institution or belief system.

You seem to be locked into ritualism. My mind is boggled about you initiating and carrying out a religious ritual to a church you abhor and a God you don't follow.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> sandcastle, you seem to be passive aggressive and to enjoy throwing in the stone, rather than adding something constructive to the conversation.


Why Thank You, Araucaria and Bless your heart!
And I've read all his posts!

Have a nice day.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> I am just wondering why you christened the baby? Isn't that a promise to raise the child in the Church and to teach the child about the God of the Bible?
> 
> If I didn't believe in a religion, didn't read or believe in their holy book, and didn't respect their institution, I would never dedicate my child to that institution or belief system.
> 
> You seem to be locked into ritualism. My mind is boggled about you initiating and carrying out a religious ritual to a church you abhor and a God you don't follow.


Yowzers-

Leave Andy alone. He can do what he wants with his baby.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

sandcastle said:


> Yowzers-
> 
> Leave Andy alone. He can do what he wants with his baby.


Yes, he definitely can do whatever he wants. 

I am just inquiring as to why he did it. sandcastle, do you believe that asking a person a question is the same thing as trying to control them?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I am just wondering why you christened the baby? Isn't that a promise to raise the child in the Church and to teach the child about the God of the Bible?
> 
> If I didn't believe in a religion, didn't read or believe in their holy book, and didn't respect their institution, I would never dedicate my child to that institution or belief system.
> 
> You seem to be locked into ritualism. My mind is boggled about you initiating and carrying out a religious ritual to a church you abhor and a God you don't follow.


Tell me where I said I don’t believe in god?
I don’t believe in the hypocrisy that has bishops in palaces and cardinals in the Vatican living in indescribable luxury in honor of a man who died naked on a crucifix with no worldly goods to his name.
Or children being abused by priests who are then protected by mother church.
Or the same cardinals asking people to donate money to help starving children in famine strewn countries in Africa while spending enough money on their robes and vestments that would feed a thousand starving children for a year.
These are things done by humans to other humans.Not by god.
He’s not concerned with such trivialities.
He’s worried about our souls, not our lives.

In a small church just outside Edinburgh my girlfriend,her son,my brother and his wife and my best friend and me joined two other groups of people having their children baptized.If one person in that group thought it was meaningless,well,sometimes you go with the flow.
And I love Edinburgh.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> When confronted your wife confesses , says they were trying to get that Chakra balanced so Orgasms could come her way and promises to never talk to Yoga Gals about anything other than their down dog pose.
> 
> Would you be posting?


 Yoga*GAL* is apples to oranges from your pool *boy* analogy. But to answer this question, and I'm pretty sure I made this clear at the beginning of this thread, but I wouldn't be happy about her sharing with yogaGAL but likely wouldn't have posted here for a gut-check. She did speak ill of me to women as well which is wrong but could even be written off as "girl talk", but speaking the same to YogaGUY crosses a huge line with me, and apparently most everyone who replied to this thread. So no matter who the guy is or what his prefix (pool,Bible study, boss,...) it's very inappropriate. I would expect more sense from Bible Study guy than poolboy though ,because of the fact he's supposed to be a Christian. The same thing I've been saying all along. Is this somehow odd or hard to understand?


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Well-
We've decided that any boy can be up to no good- Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and fill in the blank.


The point I have been trying to make and it appears to be an epic fail on my part-

Is that your wife is talking to other people and betraying your privacy and trust which she knows you don't want her to do.

I don't give a **** who she is blabbing to. I'm not even going to say she had any intentions toward this man. I'm not going to even go there.
I'm still stuck on stupid that she betrayed your trust, shared intimate and private details about you and your life.

Yoga girlfriends, bible study girlfriends, the pastor- it all gets out. It becomes gossip. People know your business -that she knows you want to keep private-

So- to me it does not matter who it is, what the religion is and who is praying for who.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Tell me where I said I don’t believe in god?
> I don’t believe in the hypocrisy that has bishops in palaces and cardinals in the Vatican living in indescribable luxury in honor of a man who died naked on a crucifix with no worldly goods to his name.
> Or children being abused by priests who are then protected by mother church.
> Or the same cardinals asking people to donate money to help starving children in famine strewn countries in Africa while spending enough money on their robes and vestments that would feed a thousand starving children for a year.
> ...


You believe in god, but do you believe in the God of the Catholic Church in whose ritual you participated?

I'm not trying to offend, but you acted the part of a hypocrite when you christened your baby. That ritual is a promise to God (actually to the Catholic Church) to raise your child in that church and teach them the theology of that church, which you have no plans to do, because you abhor that church.

I am still baffled why a person as intelligent and opinionated as you regarding religion, who has nothing but disdain for said religion would "go with the flow" and participate in a serious ritual that religion requires of it's members? I thought you were stronger and more informed than that.




Andy1001 said:


> He’s not concerned with such trivialities.
> He’s worried about our souls, not our lives.


God (of the Bible) does care about our everyday lives. Where did you get that He doesn't care about our lives? He sees mankind do all the mean things you wrote in your post, and He is grieved. Men and women's hearts can be changed to stop doing evil things to each other, but only by the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in them, guiding their consciences. 

The Catholic Church does not teach the Bible, they teach Catholic (man made) things, and Catholics live with guilt, or they reject everything and stumble through life thinking God doesn't care or doesn't love them.

Do you own a Bible Andy? Can you open it up and begin reading at the Book of John? Living Bibles are good, as they don't sound "religious" and read like a novel.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Andy-
I've been dying to go to Scotland and Edinburgh.

What is you favorite hotel there?


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> You believe in god, but do you believe in the God of the Catholic Church in whose ritual you participated?
> 
> I'm not trying to offend, but you acted the part of a hypocrite when you christened your baby. That ritual is a promise to God (actually to the Catholic Church) to raise your child in that church and teach them the theology of that church, which you have no plans to do, because you abhor that church.
> 
> ...



I guess we are going to find out how many Catholics( practicing or indoctrinated ) reside on TAM.

I thought this was Rubix thread and he is not Catholic.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Most Christians have a conscience and are sincere, and you know that. I think you are using hypocritical people as an excuse to keep your own distance from God.


 See there you go again equating church to God. I have yet to say anything to insinuate I was trying "to keep my own distance from God", I have said I plan on keeping my distance from the church.
See below for the rest of my reply.



sandcastle said:


> Well- that is quite the stretch.
> 
> *I think he does not like his wife talking to bible study dude.*
> 
> OP- are you using all of this to play hide and seek with God? Feeling guilty about your lack of church attendance and projecting this onto your pious wife and any man in Bible Study?


By George, I think you've got it. I have always been and am more than comfortable with my relationship with God it just appears now I'm not doing it right according to my wife and some here. All I'm looking for, which still hasn't been answered, is what is wrong with:


> I believe in God. I believe Jesus is his son and he died for our sins and was resurrected.


 The argument seems to be the standard quote "You have to accept Christ into your heart", well if I believe in him then I accept him, otherwise I wouldn't believe it. It seems like a word game Christians want to play. It doesn't matter what I believe, accept or feel if I don't express it in the exact way they want, and then make a huge deal of it. 
It appears that I'm not holding my mouth right or didn't get the proper paperwork notarized. Maybe I didn't make a huge deal about it and jump up on my soapbox to exclaim it but I'm not hiding anything or running away from anything.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> You believe in god, but do you believe in the God of the Catholic Church in whose ritual you participated?
> 
> I'm not trying to offend, but you acted the part of a hypocrite when you christened your baby. That ritual is a promise to God (actually to the Catholic Church) to raise your child in that church and teach them the theology of that church, which you have no plans to do, because you abhor that church.
> 
> ...


If you think that god is concerned about what his human creations get up to then why doesn’t he stop it.I have allready said that he is not concerned with our lives,only our souls, but you disagree.Why didn’t he stop Hitler,Mao, Pol pot etc.You can’t argue that he cares about our everyday life while he lets people like this thrive.
And even if he decided to grant humans free will how do you explain famine,tsunami,earthquake etc.
You can’t argue both sides,he either cares or he doesn’t And sprinkling water on an infant isn’t really going to change anything is it.
And my girlfriend is catholic.
And I am only opinionated on tam.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Well-
> We've decided that any boy can be up to no good- Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and fill in the blank.
> 
> 
> ...


 I think we are saying the same thing as far as the boundary, I'm just adding another layer because it is Bible study guy and A) He knows better and B) It is in an environment that is very easy to shut me out of and keep me on the outside, while making him look like the king turd and that would have had bearing on future interactions and closeness between the two of them i.e. A clear easy path to possible infidelity. She has admitted that was wrong, and that she held him in higher regard than he deserved.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I think we are saying the same thing as far as the boundary, I'm just adding another layer because it is Bible study guy and A) He knows better and B) It is in an environment that is very easy to shut me out of and keep me on the outside, while making him look like the king turd. She has admitted that was wrong, and that she held him in higher regard than he deserved.


At last a meeting of the minds!

Who cares about him. 
Go ravish your wife tonight. 
And hopefully she knows that NO ONE is privy to your life. Except her mother. Hahaha


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Andy-
> I've been dying to go to Scotland and Edinburgh.
> 
> What is you favorite hotel there?


If finances permit then stay at the Balmoral on Princes street.The George hotel on George st is a beautiful old hotel but you need to be staying on the higher floors and away from the noise of the street.Now that I remember it’s changed it’s name to the Principal.Edinburgh has lots of fine hotels and short term rental property.
Edinburgh is my favorite place in the world and I fully intend to move there permanently at some stage.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> If finances permit then stay at the Balmoral on Princes street.The George hotel on George st is a beautiful old hotel but you need to be staying on the higher floors and away from the noise of the street.Now that I remember it’s changed it’s name to the Principal.Edinburgh has lots of fine hotels and short term rental property.
> Edinburgh is my favorite place in the world and I fully intend to move there permanently at some stage.


Thank You and I've heard the same from so many people.

Good luck with your precious babe.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Sorry @Rubix Cubed for getting off track from your original post.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> 1
> 2. back slapers
> 
> I don't know how you can say that, since you do not know what is in every person's heart and mind.
> ...


 I think you mistook my meaning of backslapper, if not you twisted it into a pretzel. I was referring to the need to have support or a cheering section to keep your faith. My statement has nothing to do with doing good for others, that's great, I solely was referring to the depth or commitment of one's faith if they need other people involved to keep that faith.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Sorry @Rubix Cubed for getting off track from your original post.


 I'm not sure it is as off track as it may seem. I think it is germane to my problem. No apology necessary. I enjoy a friendly discourse, otherwise, how can any other point of view ever be considered.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I think you mistook my meaning of backslapper, if not you twisted it into a pretzel. I was referring to the need to have support or a cheering section to keep your faith. My statement has nothing to do with doing good for others, that's great, I solely was referring to the depth or commitment of one's faith if they need other people involved to keep that faith.


You're right, I misunderstood what you meant by backslappers.

I disagree that church and bible studies are created to create a cheering section otherwise Christians will lose their faith. People go to church for multiple reasons, and you are lumping them all into your imagined category.

For several years I have been devastated by different things that have happened around me and to me as have other Christians I know. We have not wavered in our faith in God. We have needed support, love and encouragement to just keep on going in our lives. There is a huge difference in the two.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> You're right, I misunderstood what you meant by backslappers.
> 
> I disagree that church and bible studies are created to create a cheering section otherwise Christians will lose their faith. People go to church for multiple reasons, and you are lumping them all into your imagined category.
> 
> For several years I have been devastated by different things that have happened around me and to me as have other Christians I know. We have not wavered in our faith in God. We have needed support, love and encouragement to just keep on going in our lives. There is a huge difference in the two.


 You are still misunderstanding apparently. I'm not lumping anything into anything. My comment about backslappers and cheering sections was a direct reply to your statement that people need to go to church to get support to keep their faith. It was not some overarching statement about all study groups and churches. Just that you can keep your faith without all the extra people.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> You are still misunderstanding apparently. I'm not lumping anything into anything. My comment about backslappers and cheering sections was a direct reply to your statement that *people need to go to church to get support to keep their faith.* It was not some overarching statement about all study groups and churches. Just that *you can keep your faith without all the extra people*.


I don't remember saying that. Can you post the quote? If I said that I misspoke, because I don't feel that way, or believe that for myself or others.

I agree with you that one can keep their faith without all the extra people. It is not about keeping one's faith. It is about spiritual growth, encouragement, accountability so one can grow, stretching oneself to help others so they can grow.

Faith of a mustard seed is all that is needed for a starter. But do you want your faith to remain the size of a mustard seed, or do you want it to grow into something bigger for yourself and to bless others?

No one is criticizing you for how you hold your mouth (from an earlier post of yours.) It is just curious that you are content with the faith of a mustard seed, without any desire or excitement about growing something good into something even better that you and others will be blessed. You are not only content but are fiercely defending your right to keep your faith, your spiritual knowledge, blessing and fruit small, the size of a mustard seed.

It is like you are a kid, digging in your heels, saying "NO, Daddy! I don't want that shiny bike that you want to give me! I want to keep riding my tiny tricycle!!


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> You might know God, but you won’t grow or be as useful to Him by keeping to yourself. You need to be around other Christians, doing 4 things, to grow in knowledge of God, to share God’s love, or you will become stagnant and unuseful. *Perhaps you could also lose your faith as well.
> *


I paraphrased a bit from memory but here is your quote. Post 176, my post where I said backslappers was 177. This was all in the context of my experiences with the church and your support of it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Araucaria said:


> I don't remember saying that. Can you post the quote? If I said that I misspoke, because I don't feel that way, or believe that for myself or others.
> 
> I agree with you that one can keep their faith without all the extra people. It is not about keeping one's faith. It is about spiritual growth, encouragement, accountability so one can grow, stretching oneself to help others so they can grow.
> 
> ...


In my own life I struggle with wanting to be closer to God and have more of the blessings promised in the Bible to those who trust Him. 

Two of my children have moved out of the home and I miss them. The latest one is not ready, I believe, and I wake up every morning worrying and sometimes crying.

I shared my feelings with another Christian mom who is in a similar situation and she encouraged me to give my worries and loneliness to God, to trust him with my children, and to let Him take it and replace it with His peace. She misses her children too, but before it gets too bad she is does what she told me to do and God takes away her pain and replaces it with peace. She has to do this every time she realizes she is going into that sad mode. She is not lying, because I know her, and that is why I shared it with her.

"For all things work together for those who love God and are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28 and "Cast your cares on the LORD and He will sustain you; He will never let the righteous be shaken." Psalm 55:22

I have faith, but I don't know how to let God have my worries. Seriously, I don't know how to do it and He needs to just do a miracle on me. I want to be transformed, I want to grow.

That is why it is curious to me that you don't want to be around Christians who might you to grow and deepen your walk.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I agree with you that one can keep their faith without all the extra people. It is not about keeping one's faith. It is about spiritual growth, encouragement, accountability so one can grow, stretching oneself to help others so they can grow.
> 
> Faith of a mustard seed is all that is needed for a starter. But do you want your faith to remain the size of a mustard seed, or do you want it to grow into something bigger for yourself and to bless others?
> 
> ...


 You cannot be so myopic as to see that this ^ is all based on your experiences. My experiences are not the same joyous ones of yours. Do you think the issues that caused me to create this thread make me anymore desirous to attend church? I'll answer that for you. *No*, it doesn't it just reinforces what I've seen all my life.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I paraphrased a bit from memory but here is your quote. Post 176, my post where I said backslappers was 177. This was all in the context of my experiences with the church and your support of it.


Ok, I see. I didn't mean that *all* Christians fellowship with other Christians so they won't lose their faith. 

You misunderstood me there.

I wrote "perhaps" because I was referring to a person who was in a really bad spot, and about to lose their faith. I wrote that to you because sometimes you sound like you are on a path _away_ from God instead of closer to Him. Continuing on that path you could lose your faith.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

I see Rubix as liking his path, staying on his path and not appreciating path invaders screwing up his journey down HIS path.

Like- I got my path and you got yours. I'd appreciate if you stay inside your path lanes and not butt into mine.

I could be wrong!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> You cannot be so myopic as to see that this ^ is all based on your experiences. My experiences are not the same joyous ones of yours. Do you think the issues that caused me to create this thread make me anymore desirous to attend church? I'll answer that for you. *No*, it doesn't it just reinforces what I've seen all my life.


I understand how you feel. My husband had an EA with the married daughter of the pastor of his church when he lived away from home several years ago. That made me disgusted with (some) Christians, but not with all of them. It definitely caused me to wonder about my husband's sincerity in his own faith. I have wondered why God allowed my life to be destroyed (temporarily) but then I remember Job. He loved God more than I do, and he suffered. Have you read the book of Job? He was picked on by Satan exactly _because_ he loved God so much. Job never cursed God for his misery.

My journey with my husband's adultery has caused me to reprocess my beliefs in God, the Bible, why I am a Christian, etc. I hate to say it, but in some ways it has caused me to grow as a Christian, although I believe I have also become more worldly in other ways.

I had my husband on a pedestal before that happened. Then he was sh*t in my eyes. Now he is a regular person, just like me. Maybe he needed to come down a notch in his own eyes as well. He is a more humble man now, and he is more honest with himself and with me too now that he knows what he is capable of.

Perhaps your wife will become a better person as a result of admitting that she can do something very wrong, like have an inappropriate conversation with a male. What do you think?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

sandcastle said:


> I see Rubix as liking his path, staying on his path and not appreciating path invaders screwing up his journey down HIS path.
> 
> Like- I got my path and you got yours. I'd appreciate if you stay inside your path lanes and not butt into mine.
> 
> I could be wrong!


Why don't you butt out! 

I was going to leave Rubix' thread because of what you were saying to me, and he kept the conversation going, so I have kept talking with him.


Rubix Cubed said:


> I'm not sure it is as off track as it may seem. I think it is germane to my problem. No apology necessary. I enjoy a friendly discourse, otherwise, how can any other point of view ever be considered.


Rubix, do you want me to leave your thread? I will if you are done talking with me.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> Why don't you butt out!
> 
> I was going to leave Rubix' thread because of what you were saying to me, and he kept the conversation going, so I have kept talking with him.
> 
> ...


Easy, Tiger!

I was referring to his wife situation with Bible Study Dude!

Your wish is my command!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

@sandcastle I love my trusty little ignore feature. It is better than a fly swatter. You now get to keep company with Ynot.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> If you think that god is concerned about what his human creations get up to then why doesn’t he stop it.I have allready said that he is not concerned with our lives,only our souls, but you disagree.Why didn’t he stop Hitler,Mao, Pol pot etc.You can’t argue that he cares about our everyday life while he lets people like this thrive.
> And even if he decided to grant humans free will how do you explain famine,tsunami,earthquake etc.
> You can’t argue both sides,he either cares or he doesn’t And sprinkling water on an infant isn’t really going to change anything is it.
> And my girlfriend is catholic.
> And I am only opinionated on tam.


The Bible tells us that at this time in world history that good and evil will live together. People have free will and that includes free will to act terribly. Its no surprise to me. I have had awful things happen in my life, but none of it was Gods fault and not once did I blame Him. It was caused by the actions of those around me. Everyone will be judged eventually so I leave that to God.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I think you mistook my meaning of backslapper, if not you twisted it into a pretzel. I was referring to the need to have support or a cheering section to keep your faith. My statement has nothing to do with doing good for others, that's great, I solely was referring to the depth or commitment of one's faith if they need other people involved to keep that faith.


 I have never needed to be with other Christians to keep my faith and I had 10 years away from church in the past, but I still had christian friends and we prayed together and met together. The thing is that God says we are all part of one body, and as he says, how can the foot tell the body he doesn't need them? How can the ear tell the body he doesn't need them? He also TELLS us to meet together with other Christians. What a strange family it would be if we never saw or spoke to each other. Also we go for others and not just for ourselves. Maye there is someone there who needs our support or encouragement. Maybe there are things there that you or I can do to help those in the wider community who need help. 
Its like an army, a soldier on his own is vulnerable, with his unit he is strong.

In the end its how serious we are about our faith. If we are following Jesus Christ, and He is our Lord and saviour, then we will realise that what He advises and teaches is always wise and sensible. We will want to do things for Him. We will want to chat to Him and read His word. We will want to meet with our family in whatever form that takes. I am pretty relaxed about church, but I do realise that God says we are to meet together as the family we are. I am an introvert so I am not one of these people who goes to everything and loves the whole social family aspect all the time, but I make sure that I go to my women's group as often as I can and church regularly, but if I miss one or two weeks I dont see that as an issue. There is something about worshiping God in a group that you don't get alone. Also its very good for us to learn to deal with others in a family setting that matures and moulds our character and spirit. Its very challenging but who said that being challenged was bad for us? I am all for it. 

Then there's the thought that you do it for your wife. Now there's a thing. You spend just an hour a week going somewhere with your wife just because she is your wife and you love her. I have seen so many wives alone in church and its sad, I did that for many many years, and its not always easy when the majority have their husbands there.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> In my own life I struggle with wanting to be closer to God and have more of the blessings promised in the Bible to those who trust Him.
> 
> Two of my children have moved out of the home and I miss them. The latest one is not ready, I believe, and I wake up every morning worrying and sometimes crying.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting because I am on that 'trusting God' walk. We are being challenged right now to trust God in something very important. I could be stressing and worrying myself to distraction right now over it, but I have felt God telling me to not let any negative or fearful thoughts take hold in my mind, and if they come, replace them immediately with what God says about our situation in the Bible. It takes time and practise but I can say that it helps so much and I am honestly knowing that inner peace over it. So despite what our feelings and the circumstances say, its not Gods truth. 

My husband is a very laid back, easy going Aussie who rarely worries, but I am one of those people who tries to work everything out for myself and try and solve all the issues. God says trust me, lean on me and stop being fearful. Worry and fear are so pointless and change nothing.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Thats interesting because I am on that 'trusting God' walk. We are being challenged right now to trust God in something very important. I could be stressing and worrying myself to death right now over it, but I have felt God telling me to not let any negative or fearful thoughts take hold in my mind, and if they come, replace them immediately with what God says about our situation in the Bible. It takes time and practise but I can say that it helps so much and I am honestly knowing that inner peace over it.
> My husband is a very laid back, easy going Aussie who rarely worries, but I am one of those people who tries to work everything out for myself and try and solve all the issues. God says trust me, lean on me and stop being fearful. Worry and fear are so pointless and change nothing.


Diana putting your trust in god to do what is right while admirable is not really practical.
Allow me to tell you a little story.
There was a man who bought a house that had been empty for a few years so it needed a lot of work to make it habitable.
The garden in particular was in a terrible state and the new owner spent many months cutting back hedges and undergrowth,pruning,weeding etc until eventually he had a garden to be proud of.
One afternoon he was in his garden when the local pastor passed by.The pastor said hello and then complimented the man for his garden.
He said “between yourself and our lord you have done a great job”
The man answered him by saying “you should have seen it when our lord had it on its own”.
Put your trust in god if you want to Diana But always try to have a backup plan.

By the way you’re husband sounds like a really decent,kind man.You mentioned he is a laid back Aussie,well I don’t think I’ve ever met a stressed out one lol.
Australia for the most part is one of the least hospitable places on earth and there are so many things that will happily eat you,sting you or just poison you that I think god compensated by making Australian people the friendliest you could meet.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> My wife, on a few occasions, has shared personal details about me, her, and our relationship to Men in her bible study class, church, and even religious acquaintances. She has also had some shared back with her such as one man's wife and he were having problems and she moved out of the bedroom. All of this is done under the guise of asking for prayers or praying for these men. I consider the details completely inappropriate with a man. I wouldn't be real crazy about my private life being divulged to a bunch of women under the same circumstances but wouldn't see it as inappropriate from a boundaries point of view. This was also not revealed to me until well after the incidences happened and took some prying to get.
> What are your thoughts on this?


She needs your permission to even share any personal information about your marriage with women, much less men.

She needs to seriously discipline herself to stop doing this.

You both sharing as a couple or each of you sharing with the other's permission is above board.

What she is doing is a violation of trust and she is sharing what isn't hers.

Your marriage and intimacy belong to each other and neither one of you have the authority to share about that intimacy without your mate's approval.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> She needs your permission to even share any personal information about your marriage with women, much less men.
> 
> She needs to seriously discipline herself to stop doing this.
> 
> ...


I was thinking about you saying in another thread about your wife taking advice from friends in her church and not having sex with you as much as usual.
Until you put her wise.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Diana putting your trust in god to do what is right while admirable is not really practical.
> Allow me to tell you a little story.
> There was a man who bought a house that had been empty for a few years so it needed a lot of work to make it habitable.
> The garden in particular was in a terrible state and the new owner spent many months cutting back hedges and undergrowth,pruning,weeding etc until eventually he had a garden to be proud of.
> ...


Yes I know that I am very blessed to have him, and I think his first wife was totally and completely mad to reject him. He has lived in the UK for 31 years now, just over half of his life, so in many ways he sees himself as British and has lost a lot of his accent but not the laid back easy going nature. After my first husband who used to get angry a lot and was very inconsistent with his moods etc, being with him was like a breath of fresh air. I kept waiting for him to get angry or loose his temper, like the men in my life had before, but its never happened. :smile2:

As for what you said, you have a point but there are times when there really is nothing you can do, when there is no 'plan b' and baring a supernatural intervention you are scuppered. God just keeps saying 'trust me'. His promises are real, I have seen that and my trust in Him is getting stronger all the time at the same time the peace He gives grows if we trust Him. Its all about faith, believing that He is who He says He is and He will do what He says He will do. He does reward that faith and trust.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I was thinking about you saying in another thread about your wife taking advice from friends in her church and not having sex with you as much as usual.
> Until you put her wise.


I think that's bizarre. Why would anyone tell a friend to stop having sex with their husband? Unless he is cheating or abusive of course. Must admit that I have never talked to any of my close friends about our sex life nor would I. Nor would I take advise like that, which is actually the opposite of what God says which is not to deprive each other of sex. 
I remember the pastor in our last church doing a teaching on marriage and faithfulness. Basically he said that we should have lots of good sex with our husband of wives.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).
> 
> With the stated events and facts that I have posted :
> 
> ...


With out knowing more about your wife, I would guess she is mostly naive with a dash of compartmentalization towards emotional infidelity.

The man involved strikes me as a total asshat because of his response to your email.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I think that's bizarre. Why would anyone tell a friend to stop having sex with their husband? Unless he is cheating or abusive of course. Must admit that I have never talked to any of my close friends about our sex life nor would I. Nor would I take advise like that, which is actually the opposite of what God says which is not to deprive each other of sex.
> I remember the pastor in our last church doing a teaching on marriage and faithfulness. Basically he said that we should have lots of good sex with our husband of wives.


I will let Conan answer this himself if he feels like it but suffice to say these women were unhappy in their relationships and you know the old saying.
Misery loves company.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I think that's bizarre. Why would anyone tell a friend to stop having sex with their husband? Unless he is cheating or abusive of course. Must admit that I have never talked to any of my close friends about our sex life nor would I. Nor would I take advise like that, which is actually the opposite of what God says which is not to deprive each other of sex.
> I remember the pastor in our last church doing a teaching on marriage and faithfulness. Basically he said that we should have lots of good sex with our husband of wives.


Diana, I tend to rub a lot of church people the wrong way.

I am part John Wayne, Clint Eastwood and Conan the barbarian with a touch of Romeo to soften my edges.

The church we were attending at that time had very soft men in every aspect.

I have never been soft or soft spoken.

I am not a boorish lout but I have a way about me that brooks no trespass or questions especially where my wife and family are concerned.

I have been referred to as a caveman, knuckle dragger and arrogant (sometimes accurately).

This has pissed off more people than you can probably imagine.

Those "good" church ladies took it upon themselves to take Mrs. C under their wings to help her deal with the perceived problems they observed her having with me.

They encouraged her to exert more control in her life and taking control of our sex life was but one area.

There were other areas as well and we had it out about all of them.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Diana, I tend to rub a lot of church people the wrong way.
> 
> I am part John Wayne, Clint Eastwood and Conan the barbarian with a touch of Romeo to soften my edges.
> 
> ...


The thing is that they may have only heard one side of the story. 
My husband's ex told several people/couples that he was this and that and twisted things and left out things, so they got a very skewed and wrong idea of what he was like. Even when they went for Christian marriage counselling and started out with him seeing the man and she the wife, the same thing happened so the female counsellor ended up gong along with his exes desire to separate. He on the other hand wasn't that good at expressing his feelings and emotions so wasn't really able back then to say what was actually going on. 
Also he didn't want to run his wife down to others or talk badly of her(she didn't have that problem) so it ended up with him being seen as the bad one and her to the poor little victim. Believe me that isn't the truth at all, she is very controlling and bossy and he is very patient, easy going and kind.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> I will let Conan answer this himself if he feels like it but suffice to say these women were unhappy in their relationships and you know the old saying.
> Misery loves company.


Accurate insight. Mrs. Conan and I have always been passionate and show affection in public as well as private.

We don't get vulgar but often touch or kiss as well as look at each other affectionately.

We made many people uncomfortable even though we were not being grotesque or inappropriate.

Most church couples displayed no affection in public and you might assume they were coworkers, not mates.

The women who advised my wife were particularly bitter, one of them was about as feminine as a rhinoceros and I can't imagine any of them having the level of passion in the bedroom as Mrs. C does.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> The thing is that they may have only heard one side of the story.
> My husband's ex told several people/couples that he was this and that and twisted things and left out things, so they got a very skewed and wrong idea of what he was like. Even when they went for Christian marriage counselling and started out with him seeing the man and she the wife, the same thing happened so the female counsellor ended up gong along with his exes desire to separate. He on the other hand wasn't that good at expressing his feelings and emotions so wasn't really able back then to say what was actually going on.
> Also he didn't want to run his wife down to others or talk badly of her(she didn't have that problem) so it ended up with him being seen as the bad one and her to the poor little victim. Believe me that isn't the truth at all, she is very controlling and bossy and he is very patient, easy going and kind.


Actually, the ladies in my story helped themselves to my wife and worked their way into convincing her that what we had going on was a problem and she was being taken advantage of.

She trusted them as friends and they abused her trust to manipulate her. It has been a common theme in our lives.

Going at me directly is a path for the stupid. My wife is a much softer person and has been the path many have chosen to get at me.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> I see Rubix as liking his path, staying on his path and not appreciating path invaders screwing up his journey down HIS path.
> 
> Like- I got my path and you got yours. I'd appreciate if you stay inside your path lanes and not butt into mine.
> 
> I could be wrong!


 Nope not wrong, again, I think you pretty much concisely nailed it, with the exception that I am open to hear about other's paths as long as they are no judgemental and forced fed to me. 
Sandcatle, you really should think about dropping the sarcastic/passive-aggressive, button pushing/troll posts because when you actually do offer valid input it is GOOD valid input.


@Aruacaria No, I do not want you to leave this thread. It is an open discourse though. A conversation just between you and I would not present other's views or even challenge our views, which is afterall what you are doing for me, challenging my views. As Andy seems to be Diana's foil, I think Sandcastle may be yours, so you may even want to re-consider the 'ignore' feature. If not I get it, he almost became the second one ( with Quality in the #1 spot) my ignore list as well. I'm now glad I didn't do that.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Diana putting your trust in god to do what is right while admirable is not really practical.
> Allow me to tell you a little story.
> There was a man who bought a house that had been empty for a few years so it needed a lot of work to make it habitable.
> The garden in particular was in a terrible state and the new owner spent many months cutting back hedges and undergrowth,pruning,weeding etc until eventually he had a garden to be proud of.
> ...


 I always use this one:

A man is in the ocean in a liferaft. His boat has sunk and he's praying to God to save him. Awhile later a ship comes by and asks if he needs help. He replies "Nope, God will save me". Ship leaves. Awhile later another ship comes by and asks if he needs help.Again, his reply "Nope, God will save me". That ship leaves, but also informs the Coast Guard about the situation. The Coast Guard sends a helicopter out, they find the guy ask him to put the harness on so they can hoist him to safety. The man refuses and again states "Nope, God will save me". Chopper leaves, lifeboat sinks, guy drowns. He gets to heaven and is upset with God as to why he didn't save him. God replied "I sent two ships and a helicopter. What more do you want?".

God gave us a brain, and using it is often how he saves you.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> *With out knowing more about your wife, I would guess she is mostly naive with a dash of compartmentalization towards emotional infidelity.*
> 
> The man involved strikes me as a total asshat because of his response to your email.


 That is EXACTLY how I would describe her, which can make for a dangerous combination. Especially so, IMO, in the scenario of my thread situation.

I also agree with your summation of the asshat, I would just add cowardly as an adjective to asshat as well.

Conan, Aren't you an ordained minister?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Then there's the thought that you do it for your wife. Now there's a thing. You spend just an hour a week going somewhere with your wife just because she is your wife and you love her. I have seen so many wives alone in church and its sad, I did that for many many years, and its not always easy when the majority have their husbands there.


 To me, that would be pretending to be involved for all the wrong reasons. Possibly hypocrisy bordering on being sacrilegious, but unquestionably irreverent. From that stems my church issue. I view the church in complete reverence, and from my experience, it appears that many involved, at different degrees of severity, don't. It's not supposed to be a social function, it's supposed to be a chance to worship God. It's only an hour and the other 167 hours of the week can be a social function.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Deleted by aD


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To me, that would be pretending to be involved for all the wrong reasons. Possibly hypocrisy bordering on being sacrilegious, but unquestionably irreverent. From that stems my church issue. I view the church in complete reverence, and from my experience, it appears that many involved, at different degrees of severity, don't. It's not supposed to be a social function, it's supposed to be a chance to worship God. It's only an hour and the other 167 hours of the week can be a social function.


Well its supposed to be meeting together as a family, and not just about the one hour on a Sunday. Families do chat and spend time together and help each other don't they? Its all part of being in Gods family. 
This reminds me of when my husband used to watch historical romance films with his ex wife. He hates that sort of film but said he did it for his wife. That's what marriage is about surely?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> That is EXACTLY how I would describe her, which can make for a dangerous combination. Especially so, IMO, in the scenario of my thread situation.
> 
> I also agree with your summation of the asshat, I would just add cowardly as an adjective to asshat as well.
> 
> Conan, Aren't you an ordained minister?


I am but I don't capitalize on it. I'm a working stiff and can't stomach church politics.

I stay active in marriage counseling and occasionally officiate weddings.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> This reminds me of when my husband used to watch historical romance films with his ex wife. He hates that sort of film but said he did it for his wife. That's what marriage is about surely?


 On one hand you say you need to follow XYZ and it's not enough to believe it, then, on the other hand, you say "Just go for your wife". I also think that is a very poor analogy, faith and your core beliefs to watching movies you don't like. 
I would like to reiterate as well that she began her walk long after we got together, it's not like I changed. What you are asking of me would be the same as me asking her to STOP going to church for her husband, because after all isn't that(compromise)what marriage is all about. I would never do that, by the way, just pointing out the goose/gander side of your guilt trip.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

At the end of the day ...

I hope that Rubix and his wife can navigate life with total trust, unfailing commitment, privacy respected and cherished and an amazing life that includes every aspect of love that two decent, ethical and moral people have earned.

Cheers!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> On one hand you say you need to follow XYZ and it's not enough to believe it, then, on the other hand, you say "Just go for your wife". I also think that is a very poor analogy, faith and your core beliefs to watching movies you don't like.
> I would like to reiterate as well that she began her walk long after we got together, it's not like I changed. What you are asking of me would be the same as me asking her to STOP going to church for her husband, because after all isn't that(compromise)what marriage is all about. I would never do that, by the way, just pointing out the goose/gander side of your guilt trip.



Its your choice but sometimes we need to do things that we aren't too keen on for our spouse. You said you are a Christian so its not as if you are against her faith and you may even benefit from it.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Its your choice but *sometimes we need to do things that we aren't too keen on for our spouse.* You said you are a Christian so its not as if you are against her faith and you may even benefit from it.


 I do plenty, You have no idea. 0

e.t.a.: I don't disagree with you on the benefit, and I have been considering it. I'm not willing to do it right now because I'm not going to fake it if I don't feel it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I always use this one:
> 
> A man is in the ocean in a liferaft. His boat has sunk and he's praying to God to save him. Awhile later a ship comes by and asks if he needs help. He replies "Nope, God will save me". Ship leaves. Awhile later another ship comes by and asks if he needs help.Again, his reply "Nope, God will save me". That ship leaves, but also informs the Coast Guard about the situation. The Coast Guard sends a helicopter out, they find the guy ask him to put the harness on so they can hoist him to safety. The man refuses and again states "Nope, God will save me". Chopper leaves, lifeboat sinks, guy drowns. He gets to heaven and is upset with God as to why he didn't save him. God replied "I sent two ships and a helicopter. What more do you want?".
> 
> God gave us a brain, and using it is often how he saves you.


I've heard your allegory in church. We have to listen to God, or examine what help comes our way and seriously consider accepting it. But it must all be done with prayer. One of those ship could have been a Somali pirate ship wanting to make him a slave. No where in your story did it say that the man prayed, "God, do you want me to take this ________ or wait?"


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> On one hand you say you need to follow XYZ and it's not enough to believe it, then, on the other hand, you say "Just go for your wife". I also think that is a very poor analogy, faith and your core beliefs to watching movies you don't like.
> I would like to reiterate as well that she began her walk long after we got together, it's not like I changed. What you are asking of me would be the same as me asking her to STOP going to church for her husband, because after all isn't that(compromise)what marriage is all about. I would never do that, by the way, just pointing out the goose/gander side of your guilt trip.


What is so mind boggling to me is that you say your are a Christian. Christianity is based on the Bible. So you believe in a religion, but you don't want to read it's book, hear it taught, or be around anyone who also believes in it. 

The instruction manual of the religion you say you believe in says you must spend time hearing teaching, worshiping, fellowshiping, praying, and filling your head with God's word. Yet you refuse to do any of them, saying you don't need to.

If you don't believe in the book, why say you do? Why not just be truthful? Who are you trying to impress?

The Bible tells your wife not to divorce you if she becomes a Christain and you don't. She is to continue in her faith, stay married to you, and to show you God's love by loving you and honoring you.

Are you worried that if you tell your wife you don't really believe all her hokus pokus brainwashed religion that she will leave you?

I have the same curiosity about Andy and why he christened his baby. I'm a strong Christian, have been for 28 years. I don't do Christmas, Easter, Lent candles, Good Friday, Easter Sunday sunrise services, Infant Baptism, etc. because many of the customs associated with those holidays are rooted in paganism, and no matter how they dress them up they can't change their origins. I want my faith pure and free of paganism or man made customs.

Jesus was not born on Christmas day, He rose sometime after sundown on Saturday (the 7th day) and was long gone before the sun came up on Sunday (the 1st day), following the Jewish calendar, He was not buried on Friday, because the Bible says he was in the ground for 3 whole days and nights. Christians get their feathers ruffled when I tell them these things, so I just let them do their thing and I stay home for those things. If they ask why, I politely tell them why.

So if I, a Christian can refuse to participate in "Christian" traditions, why would a non Christian go through the motions to do something they don't believe in?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I've heard your allegory in church. We have to listen to God, or examine what help comes our way and seriously consider accepting it. But it must all be done with prayer. One of those ship could have been a Somali pirate ship wanting to make him a slave. No where in your story did it say that the man prayed, "God, do you want me to take this ________ or wait?"


 2nd sentence:


> His boat has sunk and he's praying to God to save him.


 I should think that about covers it unless your God is OCD and named Sheldon.

Your Somali Pirate idea is quite the stretch. Pedantic, but I'll respond anyway. I'd venture better to be a slave for awhile and have a chance of getting away than be dead. 
Besides it's my allegory and I say there are no Somali pirates, otherwise, I would have said a Somali pirate ship came by ..., How 'bout dat?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> A)The Bible tells your wife not to divorce you if she becomes a Christain and you don't. She is to continue in her faith, stay married to you, and to show you God's love by  loving you and honoring you.
> 
> B) Are you worried that if you tell your wife you don't really believe all her hokus pokus brainwashed religion that she will leave you?


A) Well, she already failed at that. 

B) Nope, not at all she knows exactly where I stand on the level of her Chistianity.
What I am more worried about is some bible study asshat player that cons her into making a mistake that is a dealbreaker for me and I divorce her, as the bible fully permits. Either way our life together would be destroyed, so where you may think a flip comment such as that is clever in your bid to guilt me into going to church, I see it a bit differently.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> 2nd sentence:
> I should think that about covers it unless your God is OCD and named Sheldon.
> 
> Your Somali Pirate idea is quite the stretch. Pedantic, but I'll respond anyway. I'd venture better to be a slave for awhile and have a chance of getting away than be dead.


:smthumbup: It is your story, you get to make the rules!

I missed the sentence about him praying, my bad.

I brought up the Pirate thing because that sort of thing (not life and death) has happened in our own iives. We have needed something (a job change) and gone with the first thing that came through, without asking God, "Is this your answer?" Then we have greatly regretted not waiting for the right one, because the first one ended up not being very good in the long run.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> A) Well, she already failed at that.
> 
> B) Nope, not at all she knows exactly where I stand on the level of her Chistianity.
> What I am more worried about is some bible study asshat player that cons her into making a mistake that is a dealbreaker for me and I divorce her, as the bible fully permits. Either way our life together would be destroyed, so where you may think a flip comment such as that is clever in your bid to guilt me into going to church, I see it a bit differently.


A. I understand that you believe your wife didn't honor you by talking with that guy. Do you feel she regulary doesn't honor you, or just that time (and the whole time she was keeping it a secret.) 

Do you believe your wife loves you?

B. Rubix, I'm not into doing anything out of guilt. I'm the one wondering why you bother even saying you believe in a god whose book you don't read, and whose people you don't want anything to do with.

In another post you referred to God as "your god." I have the same God as your wife, and the same one you claim to believe in (Jesus, the cross, the resurrection...you know all that stuff...)

Just carry on. No guilt trip from me. You're kind of like the man in the water in your allegory. The difference between you and him is that you aren't asking for God to send any help at all, because you think you can swim to shore all by yourself. I get you. That is what free will is all about. 

My intent has not been to guilt you, shame you, or anything of the sort. A Christian walk rooted in shame and guilt is useless, and shallow, and will not last. One needs to respond to God out of love, not guilt.

I was trying to reason with you, give you lots of examples to show you what the Bible says about your rejection of fellowship with Christians, thinking you had a grounding in the scriptures, and thinking that you would appreciate scripture, instead of just "Araukaria's opinion." 

The gospel is an offence to many people, so I won't apologize for that, since it can't be helped. 

I apologize and ask your forgiveness in anything I personally did, out of my own flesh that offended you. I am like a bulldog, and sometimes don't know when to let go. I'm sorry.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> A. I understand that you believe your wife didn't honor you by talking with that guy. Do you feel she regulary doesn't honor you, or just that time (and the whole time she was keeping it a secret.)
> 
> Do you believe your wife loves you?
> 
> ...


 A) It has happened numerous times. Only two ,possibly 3, occasions with men that I am aware of, ( the other being part of the 2 years past "watershed event") which is 2/3 times too many, and she is working on that issue. I see progress. Time will tell.
I do believe she loves me now, not so sure about when all of this happened. At that time it may have been more of an ILYBINILWY sort of thing though she claims she was "In love with me but sometimes (felt like most of the time) she didn't like me very much". I had a hard time seeing the difference. I even have another thread about that exact same issue.

B) I see believing in God as an entirely separate issue than being around "his people" (you obviously have no idea how judgemental you sound when you say stuff like this). 
Do you believe that when you flip on a light switch in your house that the light will come on? Have you read the blueprints and assembly plans of a Nuclear power plant? I expect you read the directions for the appliances you buy.
How many times have you read the Bible cover to cover?

C)


> In another post you referred to God as "your god." I have the same God as your wife, and the same one you claim to believe in (Jesus, the cross, the resurrection...you know all that stuff...)


 The *only* problems I have with you Araucaria, are you make many assumptions, some incorrectly, and you twist things out of context to try to prove your self right. The post you refer to was where you did the same thing, not reading the "pray to God" part in my story. My response was "Unless your God is OCD and named Sheldon ...", that referred to either you didn't read my story completely (which you admitted was the case) or you worshipped a God that is different than everyone else that expects minute, unforeseen details such as the type of ship, in the prayers to him. It was also a joke to try to lighten the mistake you had obviously made, call it grace. Whether these are innocent mistakes or attempts at obfuscation trying to muddy the waters, it has occurred repeatedly. I give the benefit of the doubt that it is the former, but it does mislead the conversation and waste valuable time and energy for both of us (you thinking about and typing an incorrect thought and me having to explain it). The bulldog can certainly be irritating but I respect your tenacity.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I find it ironic that Diana is advising you to partake in church activities even though you don’t believe in them,purely to show solidarity with your wife,which I would have no problem with,and araucaria is criticizing me for doing the same thing by allowing my baby to be baptized.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I find it ironic that Diana is advising you to partake in church activities even though you don’t believe in them,purely to show solidarity with your wife,which I would have no problem with,and araucaria is criticizing me for doing the same thing by allowing my baby to be baptized.


 I noticed that as well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I find it ironic that Diana is advising you to partake in church activities even though you don’t believe in them,purely to show solidarity with your wife,which I would have no problem with,and araucaria is criticizing me for doing the same thing by allowing my baby to be baptized.


If your wife is a Christian then that's why she wanted her child baptised, although its not actually biblical. Baptism in the Bible is by full immersion for the adult believer. 
If neither parent is a Christian then why do it? Seems pointless to make promises to bring that child up in the Christian faith if you aren't going to do it. 
If I had my children again I wouldn't have them baptised as babies but wait till they were older.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> If your wife is a Christian then that's why she wanted her child baptised, although its not actually biblical. Baptism in the Bible is by full immersion for the adult believer.
> If neither parent is a Christian then why do it? Seems pointless to make promises to bring that child up in the Christian faith if you aren't going to do it.
> If I had my children again I wouldn't have them baptised as babies but wait till they were older.


Both my girlfriend and I were raised catholic but certainly not strong ones.She wanted the baby christened so when we were on vacation in Scotland we had it done.
In my case I was christened and made my first communion and confirmation but my parents allowed me to make up my own mind when I got older. My lifestyle clashed with the catholic church’s views on contraception and later on when I made some friends who were gay it really clashed.Their view on homosexuality is archaic at best and positively barbaric at worst.
We had a nun in school who taught us that contraception,homosexuality and sex before marriage were the only unforgivable sins.
I live with my girlfriend,use contraception and consort with gay people,my daughters godmother is a gay woman.
According to that nun I’m going to hell.
Except I don’t believe in hell.

How’s the weather with you,I see you’re in for some snow.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Both my girlfriend and I were raised catholic but certainly not strong ones.She wanted the baby christened so when we were on vacation in Scotland we had it done.
> In my case I was christened and made my first communion and confirmation but my parents allowed me to make up my own mind when I got older. My lifestyle clashed with the catholic church’s views on contraception and later on when I made some friends who were gay it really clashed.Their view on homosexuality is archaic at best and positively barbaric at worst.
> We had a nun in school who taught us that contraception,homosexuality and sex before marriage were the only unforgivable sins.
> I live with my girlfriend,use contraception and consort with gay people,my daughters godmother is a gay woman.
> ...


Funny you should mention the weather, because its just started snowing but its not heavy as yet and isn't settling. They have had much more in other parts of the country. Its VERY cold and going to be below freezing during the day 3 days this week which is rare. I don't mind it as the cold doesn't bother me. Its the heat I cant take.:surprise: 

Please don't go by what nuns say or by what the RC church say. Most of their beliefs aren't biblical at all.

The bible says that the ONLY unforgiveable sin is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 

God does say that sex is only for man and woman in marriage, but if people aren't Christians then they are free to chose their own path. We know several gay men and its interesting that all of them were sexually abused as children by either their father or another man. I cant imagine the damage that caused to their sexuality. I read recently about a gay man who had lived in the gay scene for 10 years, and he said that most of them were damaged hurting people who were desperately looking for male love and acceptance. I thought that was very sad.

I have no issues at all with being friends with gay men or lesbians, one of my best friends twin sister is gay, and we have a good friend who is gay. If they ask me what God says I would be honest. If I had same sex attraction I would remain single because God and my Christian walk means more to me that a temporary relationship.

I have used contraception. Ones that stop conception happening aren't wrong as far as I can see.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Funny you should mention the weather, because its just started snowing but its not heavy as yet and isn't settling. They have had much more in other parts of the country. Its VERY cold and going to be below freezing during the day 3 days this week which is rare. I don't mind it as the cold doesn't bother me. Its the heat I cant take.:surprise:
> 
> Please don't go by what nuns say or by what the RC church say. Most of their beliefs aren't biblical at all.
> 
> ...


My best friend and business partner is a gay woman,we have been through so much together and lived together for years,she is my daughters godmother and is very close to the rest of my family.Her family completely disowned her when she came out and even now almost sixteen years later she is hardly ever invited to family get togethers and never gets a card from her parents on her birthday or at Christmas.
They did everything in their power to make life as difficult as possible including refusing to allow her to go to college and when she eventually got away from them she didn’t go home for years.
I accompanied her back to her home for weddings on a few occasions and I was initially welcomed with open arms because her parents thought we were a couple but once I made it clear that we were just friends I got the cold shoulder.

As far as gay people being more likely to be victims of child abuse I can’t in all honesty agree with you.I know an awful lot of gay people and I don’t think child abuse was any more prevalent with them than with straight people.But from living in the UK I know that outside of the major cities,homophobia is a serious problem at least compared to the US.

I was looking at Sky News earlier from London and the weather in the east of the country looked bad.I’m not sure what area you are from but hopefully you will miss the worst of it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> My best friend and business partner is a gay woman,we have been through so much together and lived together for years,she is my daughters godmother and is very close to the rest of my family.Her family completely disowned her when she came out and even now almost sixteen years later she is hardly ever invited to family get togethers and never gets a card from her parents on her birthday or at Christmas.
> They did everything in their power to make life as difficult as possible including refusing to allow her to go to college and when she eventually got away from them she didn’t go home for years.
> I accompanied her back to her home for weddings on a few occasions and I was initially welcomed with open arms because her parents thought we were a couple but once I made it clear that we were just friends I got the cold shoulder.
> 
> ...


That's interesting because I haven't found homophobia to be much of an issue here. In fact gays/transsexuals are almost treated as hero's by most of the rich, famous and establishment here. However if you speak out against gay marriage you are attacked with foul and offensive and vitriolic language and can even loose your job. No one cares how Christians are treated. 

You may not know if people have been abused. Most people don't go round telling others. I have people in my family who were abused and they tell very few people. 

We have helped many of these young men in one way or another, and they have been open with us about their past. 
I read some time ago a study where counsellors said that the percentage of gay man who had been sexually abused was higher than hetro-sexual men. 

We have friends in Texas and homophobia is rife there. Far far worse than here.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

So I finally got a reply from the pious flirt after the group leader had spoken to him. The group leader had communicated with my wife about some study material she was interested in and also said she had spoken to him and he was sending me an email to apologize and invite me to Bible study. I don't see any apology or acknowledgment anywhere in his reply. I see a whole lot of talk with an "I'm sorry you feel that way" at the end. I've crafted a reply, but have yet to send it. It accepts none of it and calls him out on the perfunctory response and lack of acknowledgment of what he did. 
@Andy1001 since you, like myself are a fan of irony, look at the curriculum for the study group he's inviting me to, as well as the fact his douchey ass is inviting me to the bible study (like he's in charge), and telling me how "non-threatening" it is, but I'm SURE glad he holds no ill will towards me. Some serious tone deafness. I'm absolutely certain that he would never have replied had the Group leader not spoken to him. That conversation also got his wife going to the study group now. 
Hmmm ...I wonder why? 



> _It took me a while to decide if I was going to respond to you because I didn't feel as I had done anything wrong and I didn't understand why you had sent this email. I hate that you have any inclination that I have an interest in Mrs. RC as this is so far off of my feelings for her. I look at her as a sister in Christ and that is as far as that will ever go. I love my wife although I do not have the perfect marriage we all struggle at times. I don't have any ill feelings for you or for Mrs. RC and I would encourage you to join us on Bible study nights as we are starting a new study on foundations of honor which is designed to strengthen relationships. Mrs pious flirt actually joined us last night and I am very excited to have my wife now in the study with me. We are a very tight nit group Rubix Cubed and we only lift one another up and encourage each other in the study. Our study is a non threatening environment not like some Churches and we all feel open to share and do what we can through the power of God to help one another. This is what the Bible instructs us as believers to do. I hope you would seriously consider joining us on Bible study nights. I apologize if you felt any threat from me or any email I may have sent your wife. I can assure you there was no intent on my part to go after your wife. God Bless you and Mrs RC and your family._


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think you just need to move on now.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

He is a huge piece of **** 💩!

I have run into his type many times and I have no problem intimidating the hell out of them.

It seems your wife is part of a highly "religious" group and that is no compliment.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> So I finally got a reply from the pious flirt after the group leader had spoken to him. The group leader had communicated with my wife about some study material she was interested in and also said she had spoken to him and he was sending me an email to apologize and invite me to Bible study. I don't see any apology or acknowledgment anywhere in his reply. I see a whole lot of talk with an "I'm sorry you feel that way" at the end. I've crafted a reply, but have yet to send it. It accepts none of it and calls him out on the perfunctory response and lack of acknowledgment of what he did.
> @Andy1001 since you, like myself are a fan of irony, look at the curriculum for the study group he's inviting me to, as well as the fact his douchey ass is inviting me to the bible study (like he's in charge), and telling me how "non-threatening" it is, but I'm SURE glad he holds no ill will towards me. Some serious tone deafness. I'm absolutely certain that he would never have replied had the Group leader not spoken to him. That conversation also got his wife going to the study group now.
> Hmmm ...I wonder why?


Could you post some of **** breath's offensive emails?

If I missed them, I'm sorry but I loathe people like him and hope to find you leverage against him.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Could you post some of **** breath's offensive emails?
> 
> If I missed them, I'm sorry but I loathe people like him and hope to find you leverage against him.


 I appreciate the thought, but I already feel like I may have posted too much. The one email I have is basically him saying he'd vouch for where she was after she vented about how I blew up when she was 2 hours late(usually home by 9:30 didn't get home until 11:30) from Bible study at church. Their group leader was copied on that email as well, so I'm less inclined to believe that something happened, but she still told stuff about me in her vent that should have stayed between us. She admits she told him other stuff but can't remember what it was.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I appreciate the thought, but I already feel like I may have posted too much. The one email I have is basically him saying he'd vouch for where she was after she vented about how I blew up when she was 2 hours late(usually home by 9:30 didn't get home until 11:30) from Bible study at church. Their group leader was copied on that email as well, so I'm less inclined to believe that something happened, but she still told stuff about me in her vent that should have stayed between us. She admits she told him other stuff but can't remember what it was.


Selective amnesia is very handy in these cases.
Rubix in my honest opinion you should insist your wife break all contact with these sanctimonious *******s.The worst possible outcome would be for you to attend any “classes”.Remember you would be the student and have to sit back and listen to their bs.
And Mr Pious would take delight in talking about your shortcomings.
This is my final word on this subject.If your wife can’t do without these people then maybe she has to do without you.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Selective amnesia is very handy in these cases.
> Rubix in my honest opinion you should insist your wife break all contact with these sanctimonious *******s.The worst possible outcome would be for you to attend any “classes”.Remember you would be the student and have to sit back and listen to their bs.
> And Mr Pious would take delight in talking about your shortcomings.
> This is my final word on this subject.If your wife can’t do without these people then maybe she has to do without you.


 That's where we are. If this guy leaves the class then I would be OK with her attending and would consider attending myself. I don't judge the whole class on just him, but could not attend (especially in the mindset I should be in) if he were there.

e.t.a. If he did leave, and I went to find they were all like him, my attendance would be very shortlived.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I think you just need to move on now.


 @Diana7 ,
I think I was well on my way to moving on, and then I got that sanctimonious reply from him, that coupled with my wife trying to explain his mindset(the why's) to me, set me back a bit. I sent my reply and I expect that will be it, as he seems to be fairly cowardly about responding to me. No contact between her and him will be in place and we will go from there.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> How would you judge that verse and others that say the same thing? I am no theologian but the Bible is pretty clear on how we can be saved.
> God tellsus how we can be saved and its up to us to accept that or not. If you think that judgy take it up with Him.


None of us wants, desires judgement.
From God, from our fellow men.
'
This is why [a biggie reason] religion is on the outs, 'ooots' in Scotland.

People just want to enjoy life......have fun.

Have some....
With nigh regrets. :surprise:

It's MY life, I need no bloke to tell me ow' ta liv' it! :frown2:


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