# Part Two.



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

The first part was shut down and I didn't get a chance to respond to my critics. Here goes. 

To answer some questions, our marriage has struggled for a long time. I should have left years ago. 2 (now almost 3 years ago), I came here looking for advice. I wanted my marriage to work and BOTH of us worked hard to make it such. It seems in working so hard, we realized that if something takes that much work, there isn't much left. Going out to a bar and having fun was something we looked forward to but driving there we barely spoke and now we both agree it was more exciting to dress up and have a night out, away from the kids and doing something other than watching television.

I asked him a few weeks ago if he was in love with me and he said no. He said he loved me but not in love. We talked at length and came to the conclusion that we have settled in to comfort, if you will. He loves me because he can tell me anything and I the same. He loves that I get him. He loves that I always have his back. He loves that I am his greatest cheerleader. He loves that when he comes home, he knows I will be there with an understanding ear. He loves that I look good. He loves that I can (in his words) light up a room and he said he has no intention of divorcing me, ever. He said we work well together and loves everything about me. Not once did he mention sexual attraction or anything close to that. I guess the reason I never left was because as awful as that was to hear, he too provided that for me. Smart, good looking and my best friend. He knows literally everything about me and accepted me despite of it. 

Last night I told him about my desire to cheat and he didn't seem shocked. He understood and said he too has thought of it. Wow! He has rejected me time and time again and yet wants sex from others? A wife who wants sex 24/7 and he doesn't? Crushed is the only word that comes to mind but makes me all that much determined to find love. 

To answer some more questions, I am not rewriting anything. There is nobody else. I don't have some dude in mind and frankly wouldn't know where to find one if I did decide to cheat. The reason I posted was more of a "talk me off the ledge" kind of thing or shall I say "talk me off of changing my position on cheating" thing. I am not a cheater but I am very angry. His response upset me deeply. Many have asked why I pushed his hand away when he grabbed my feet. It angered me because he has rejected me so much and the only contact I get is hand holding, feet and an occasional hug. I DON'T consider that touch. I like sex. Touching my feet and falling asleep is not sexy, not at all. 

Again, you get married. Pledge your sexuality to your spouse and they throw it away. So at what point is it okay to cheat? Is it okay if you have already told your spouse that you might and their response is nothing short of "meh"?.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Mr Whatever the hell your name is, I am not an opportunist. I took my inheritance from my Grandfather and put my husband through graduate school. When all was said and done, it was just over $150K. My Grandfather saved and scrimped for that money so that I could realize my dreams. I didn't, but my husband did with money I used to pay for his grad school and a new car, so tell me again how much of a gold digger I am. I dare you.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

So, that conversation is a START. Real love in a real marriage is not hearts, unicorns and flowers year after year. It's often hard and unrewarding but if the core is there (that love you describe from both of you), then you put yourselves in there to fix it.

Now that you've set the stage, the next step is to get yourselves in for some marriage counseling and work on re-establishing intimacy. Don't become petty and push him away physically since that translates into isolating yourselves further physically. 

Make it clear that you expect his participation and commitment to this or a divorce will be inevitable. But most of all, stay true to your own integrity and do not cheat. I can tell you from experience, it's really hard to look yourself in the mirror when you've crossed that line no matter how much you 'think' you're justified.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I am going to re-uggest that you two have an open discussion about entering an open marriage. I personally could never do that, but it seems you both want sex outside the marriage, and if you both get it, and know the other is getting it, and meet each other's needs in every other way, maybe that's the way to go. There is a subset of people than can live this way. 

While that would make you both infidels, so to speak, it wouldn't be cheating. You'd both have permission. This may end up being your undoing as a couple, but, aren't you already there?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So at what point is it okay to cheat?



can't think of one, you file or separate first (or have an open marriage, which I am not a fan of)




Therealbrighteyes said:


> Is it okay if you have already told your spouse that you might and their response is nothing short of "meh"?.



well he didn't give you permission, here but had he flat out said, "go ahead and have sex with others" then it isn't cheating

what that does indicate is that he is already considering it himself as it's become painfully apparent he is not attracted to you (or is having his own affair?). Have you asked him specifically why he has no attraction for you?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Why do you think he is not sexually attracted to you ? Could it be a medical condition ?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Could it be a medical condition ?


doubt it considering he is demonstrating he has attraction for others

to me this is a form of ILYBINILWY

are there are any signs/flags that he is cheating?


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## My_2nd_Rodeo (Nov 20, 2012)

Wow, it sounds like you both have many components of a great relationship but the s6x and a bit of dullness. Best friends? The basic blocks sound like they are there.

As a practical manner, is there something that turns him off, but he's embarrassed to tell you? I had a gf once with a lot of hair where it shouldn't be :moon:... total turn-off, but I didn’t want to hurt her feelings with such a personal thing. It definitely impacted my physical passion towards her. She also kissed like an alien. 

I really think that this is solvable. Don't decide to end it by going over the ledge. Once you cheat, you've set things in motion that cannot be easily changed.

I know that you think, "He thought about cheating, but I'm open 24/7 begging for it - what betrayal!!" He's in his late 30s early 40s? Could it be chemical drive to some degree? 

Also, sounds like you both need to just start being romantic, rekindle. That's easy for me to say, very hard for you to get motivated to do. If you take it upon yourself to start being romantic (someone has to start it), you might not get an intial reaction or even feel as if it is a fruitless chore. Keep doing it - see if it works, worth a shot? 

FYI -


> It seems in working so hard, we realized that if something takes that much work, there isn't much left.


. I know it's been a few years, but I hear from my grandparents (married 70 years), that they worked very hard at their marriage.

I wish you the best.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Ouch, can you really live a sexless life with your husband TRBE?

He's made it pretty clear, loves you but there is probably not going to be a sex life at all, or a good one.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

His answer is a cop out. Your are great, you are wonnderful, you have all these great qualities, I'll never divorce you... But I don't want to have sex with you. That logic makes no sense..

This is the thing... What long term married middle aged people would ansnwer yes to being "in love"? Who even contemplates that? The reason he will not divorce you is that he is happy in his marriage and he is getting his emotional needs met by you. His needs are not sex, they are all the other things he mentioned. He is happy and satisfied.

What you should ask him or experiment with is "would you want a divorce if you did not get all those things from me?". I suspect he would be the first to want a divorce if his needs are not being met.

Another possibility is that he resents you, has anger toward you and is afraid to tell you about it. Not for nothing but you are confrontational here on TAM, and he may be trying to avoid your wrath or arguments with him. He may not feel safe enough to reveal the truth.

You should also become knowledgeable about health insurance as a result of divorce in your state, options to buy health insurance through the state, and your rights under the new healthcare law beginning in 2014. I know in my state an many others you can buy heath insurance through the state and it is priced based on your income.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

Forget romance. How about spice? Maybe instead of opening up the marriage you could start smaller? Go to a strip club. Or to night club with gogo dancers. If he is lacking drive, let him ogle some girls with you and then you reap the reward. Share some fantasies about cheating with each other. Watch porn together. You do have to make an effort. If you want more sex, open your mind up to what he likes. Be patient as you can and overcome jealousy. This kind of thing has really brought my husband closer sexually. We haven't even gone to a strip club but talking about it and know it is on the table is pretty spicy for us. Then we have a next step if we get bored again. There are lots of other ways to do this. If you live in or near a major city you can go to a swingers party and not do anything but watch. Or better yet, you can fantasize together about doing it. Cheat on your husband with your husband. Take the big risks with your husband. If he doesn't respond to any of this kind of thing and keeps pulling away MC is probably in order.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

TRBE,
I happen to agree with you. I word it, to myself, as an exit affair. In my OWN life, I can only speak for me, but there is NO chance of working things out. Cheating to me implies you are gettin' some extra on the side and still maintaining a sexual relationship with your spouse, presenting yourselves as married to others, and thus the feelings of betrayal. 

It's different if you are stuck where you are (for many many reasons) can manage to still live together somehow, but want to fully experience passion and love.

The difference? An exit affair is a reason for you to leave. 
Cheating is cake eating.

There is no talking me off the ledge. I'm open to invitations. Respect is key. Being professional about it. I have zero intentions of being "sexual" with my husband. Not in the future, or down the road, or after I've been with someone else. 

An open marriage is one where you still have sex with your spouse, but you are both free to include others. That's not the case either.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

TBRE,
We've gone to counselling for just this issue.. aside from others.
That's where the whole passive aggressive crap came up.

Recently, I brought up the whole "I'm not interested in sex" comment he made. And he LIED and denied he even said it. Came up with other excuses instead. 

It's game playing. Getting back at you, due to resentment, not knowing how to deal with emotions more maturely, a whole list of reasons why. There is most likely nothing wrong with his sex drive, but he's not able to be emotional with you. My hubby either.

You can blame yourself til you die. You can work on yourself until you die. But you will probably never forget how much it HURT for him to hit that low because of some comment or whatever it is you did. And will he do it again? Maybe. But maybe not to you.
If you don't allow it. 

You can either severely assert your boundaries here.... and tell him just how it's going to be (he WILL learn to deal with his emotions, and not shut you out and punish you) or you will find someone who will.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Does his lack of sexual attraction or seeming lack of sexual attraction have anything to do with your breast cancer experience? Could that maybe play a part in how he's relating to you? I'm just taking a stab in the dark but sometimes when a person has been in the role of a caregiver (him) after an illness, it can impact the sexual relationship especially if that illness involves perhaps a body part central to some men's sexual attraction. 

I know he was wonderful to you during your healing period and you've written about that. I just wonder if it left some lingering thing in his brain that even he's not aware of. 

I could be way off base though. My two cents for what it's worth.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Have you read enough cheating stories on here to see how cheating, or trying an open marriage works yet?

Have you two gone to counseling?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rihanna said:


> Forget romance. How about spice? Maybe instead of opening up the marriage you could start smaller? Go to a strip club. Or to night club with gogo dancers. If he is lacking drive, let him ogle some girls with you and then you reap the reward. Share some fantasies about cheating with each other. Watch porn together. You do have to make an effort. If you want more sex, open your mind up to what he likes. Be patient as you can and overcome jealousy. This kind of thing has really brought my husband closer sexually. We haven't even gone to a strip club but talking about it and know it is on the table is pretty spicy for us. Then we have a next step if we get bored again. There are lots of other ways to do this. If you live in or near a major city you can go to a swingers party and not do anything but watch. Or better yet, you can fantasize together about doing it. Cheat on your husband with your husband. Take the big risks with your husband. If he doesn't respond to any of this kind of thing and keeps pulling away MC is probably in order.


Uhhhh... Rihanna.... just FYI, do NOT suggest porn to TRBE. THAT won't happen. She has posted on TAM about her reasons for it, but I will let her tell you, unless you choose to search the forums for her posts on the subject. And, if she feels the same way about strip clubs as she does about porn (which I believe she has said in other threads), then that isn't going to happen. I agree, spicing up is a good idea... if she can get him to go along. But that can be done without going to strip clubs and watching that stuff.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I sure wish people would stop starting new threads.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Mr Whatever the hell your name is, I am not an opportunist. I took my inheritance from my Grandfather and put my husband through graduate school. When all was said and done, it was just over $150K. My Grandfather saved and scrimped for that money so that I could realize my dreams. I didn't, but my husband did with money I used to pay for his grad school and a new car, so tell me again how much of a gold digger I am. I dare you.


How soon after you put him through Grad School & bought him a new car did he start to change towards you?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

TRBE, I highly suspect there is something he's not telling you. Hicks has it right that he could just be happy in the marriage, has his emotional needs met and doesn't have sexual needs... EXCEPT that he has already admitted to you that he has also been on the "I'm gonna cheat" ledge. And those two really do not mix, he has told you ILYBINILWY, but doesn't want a divorce, nor sex with you, but possibly someone else.

I would really question how loyal he truly is, IIRC he travels a lot, it certainly is no stretch for someone to envision a string of infidelity all along - of course I'm not saying that is so. Or perhaps that is not it at all and it is instead something more personal to him, such as a criticism he takes too hard...

as to physical touch love language, physical touch and sexual touch are two entirely different things for many people, when he tries to touch and you reject, to me this is a big deal for him, and probably very close to the heart of the matter, especially if he has remained loyal to you.

But of course, only you and him have it in you to find these things out and either work on it, live with it, or divorce... how firm was he on the "I'd never divorce you" statement, would he fight if you lead a divorce or just be passive about it?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Lon said:


> TRBE, I highly suspect there is something he's not telling you. Hicks has it right that he could just be happy in the marriage, has his emotional needs met and doesn't have sexual needs... EXCEPT that he has already admitted to you that he has also been on the "I'm gonna cheat" ledge. And those two really do not mix, he has told you ILYBINILWY, but doesn't want a divorce, nor sex with you, but possibly someone else.
> 
> I would really question how loyal he truly is, IIRC he travels a lot, it certainly is no stretch for someone to envision a string of infidelity all along - of course I'm not saying that is so. Or perhaps that is not it at all and it is instead something more personal to him, such as a criticism he takes too hard...
> 
> ...


Not sure why I started this part two thread but here goes. No, he isn't cheating. No, his response hasn't changed post cancer. No, rubbing my feet and me not liking it doesn't strike to the core of his being. Yes, he is passive. Only in relationships though. He manages to be plenty aggressive at work. 

Turnera, I started this post because my other one was locked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhhh... Rihanna.... just FYI, do NOT suggest porn to TRBE. THAT won't happen. She has posted on TAM about her reasons for it, but I will let her tell you, unless you choose to search the forums for her posts on the subject. And, if she feels the same way about strip clubs as she does about porn (which I believe she has said in other threads), then that isn't going to happen. I agree, spicing up is a good idea... if she can get him to go along. But that can be done without going to strip clubs and watching that stuff.


I laughed when I read your response. Yup, porn isn't happening, not on my end at least. If I did ever find it on his, one and done. 
Rihanna, I did a movie over 20 years ago. Scenes deleted thankfully but my experience was horrifying and I am anti-porn. Not anti-sex on film but anti-using drug addicted/abused/molested as children people to make money off of them. I won't turn this into an anti-porn thread but I thought you should know my feelings on the matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Not sure why I started this part two thread but here goes. No, he isn't cheating. No, his response hasn't changed post cancer. No, rubbing my feet and me not liking it doesn't strike to the core of his being. Yes, he is passive. Only in relationships though. He manages to be plenty aggressive at work.
> 
> Turnera, I started this post because my other one was locked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you don't take this comment the wrong way, or think its in jest, but maybe he just wants to be dominated commanded around once in awhile, and sexually?? And is way too stubborn to ever admit that to anyone, or doubts that you'd be the one to be able to lead him like that? I have heard that often the assertive, and commanding men in the boardroom are usually the ones that have the wildest submissive streak in the bedroom?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I sympathise with the OP. This is a sad situation tbh.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

So, after all this time and history, is your husband worth absolutely anything at all to you? I'm asking this because you seem to have no idea just how truly devastating the betrayal of infidelity is, not only to the betrayed, but to the betrayer (if they have a half a shred of decency in them, you seem to). Absolute, undistilled emotional agony. Utter hell. No one deserves it. No one, not even a cheater (well maybe the OM... no, not even the POSOM.). Read the threads on this forum, look at the raw pain that comes on d day, and lasts for years! You can't undo cheating, ever. Your fidelity is not for your husband, it is for you. Look in the mirror now. Imagine looking in the mirror knowing you betrayed yourself. Every day, for the rest of your life. Once you cheat, you will always be a cheater.

Don't do that to yourself. Don't do that to your husband. If he is so horrible now, divorce him. The insurance thing is not insurmountable, if that is what you really want deep down.

I suspect your marriage can be saved though. Marriage is hard work, very hard. You have to work at it constantly to keep things in balance. Who said it would be easy? Affairs are easy. Infatuation is easy. Real life is set aside for a time, so it seems really easy, fated even. But then reality comes crashing in sooner or later, and if you think things were hard before, you have no idea just how ****ing hard it can be. And then you have to look in the mirror to see who is to blame.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> So, after all this time and history, is your husband worth absolutely anything at all to you? I'm asking this because you seem to have no idea just how truly devastating the betrayal of infidelity is, not only to the betrayed, but to the betrayer (if they have a half a shred of decency in them, you seem to). Absolute, undistilled emotional agony. Utter hell. No one deserves it. No one, not even a cheater (well maybe the OM... no, not even the POSOM.). Read the threads on this forum, look at the raw pain that comes on d day, and lasts for years! You can't undo cheating, ever. Your fidelity is not for your husband, it is for you. Look in the mirror now. Imagine looking in the mirror knowing you betrayed yourself. Every day, for the rest of your life. Once you cheat, you will always be a cheater.
> 
> Don't do that to yourself. Don't do that to your husband. If he is so horrible now, divorce him. The insurance thing is not insurmountable, if that is what you really want deep down.
> 
> I suspect your marriage can be saved though. Marriage is hard work, very hard. You have to work at it constantly to keep things in balance. Who said it would be easy? Affairs are easy. Infatuation is easy. Real life is set aside for a time, so it seems really easy, fated even. But then reality comes crashing in sooner or later, and if you think things were hard before, you have no idea just how ****ing hard it can be. And then you have to look in the mirror to see who is to blame.


I agree that she should not cheat for herself... for the damage it would do to herself.

But her husband.... withhold sex is a form on infidelity...

Do you have any idea of the emotional pain that a person suffers for the kind of rejection he's putting her through? It's every as damaging as if he were cheating.

What he is doing is a form of serious emotional abuse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes,

I understand what you are going through as I've been through it as well. What he's doing is basically emotional abuse. To refuse to meet one of your most important emotional needs is just wrong. 

He has an obligation to get his desire for sex with you back on track… that means going to a doctor to find out if he has a problem. If he was morning erections then it’s not physiological 

If it’s psychological… usually when a man withholds sex it’s because he’s angry, resentful. It’s a passive aggressive way to express his anger and resentment. Instead of dealing with it openly withholding sex extracts the pound of flesh that he wants for whatever is eating at him. And he’s not willing to deal openly and honestly with you. 

From experience, as a woman who stayed too long in such a relationship, my advice is that you get out of this marriage as soon as you can. You have insurance issues so perhaps wait until 2014 when pre-existing conditions are not a consideration. Use the next year to get yourself situated. Stop focusing on him and your marriage. Put money away. Look at what you need to do to enhance your ability to support yourself, and so forth. Talk to an attorney about you having use your inheritance to put him through school. In some states he would have to pay you back or you would get a larger portion of assets, alimony etc. based on that.

IF there is a chance that he will change his approach to this it would be when he notices that you do not care anymore and are pulling away from him. His passive aggressive act will no longer have the power over you that it has now so it might drive him to finally face whatever he is angry, resentful about.

What I find interesting about your thread here is that when a man comes here and says that his wife is refusing sex, the men jump right on it and paint her as a horrible, mean woman who is purposely withholding sex. She’s using very trick in the book to deprive him of sex and to use HIS money. He should dump her post haste and go find some hot new mate.

But here we have people telling asking you if you value him (as though you should value him and thus accept his rejection); suggesting that you should take him to strip clubs, watch porn with him; become domineering; and just accept it because long term marriages are just not butterflies and unicorns. 

Few have suggested that he needs to man up and address his problems and the emotional pain he is causing you.

I see that the double standard is alive and well.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that she should not cheat for herself... for the damage it would do to herself.
> 
> But her husband.... withhold sex is a form on infidelity...
> 
> ...


Yes, I know precisely. From both sides. 

We aren't getting the whole story here. My guess is he has felt rejected too. They got caught in a spiral of rejection and resentment. Punishment, because they don't know how to break the patterns. They don't know how to reach one another, to communicate deeply, to drop the pride bull****, to stop blaming and start solving. They are both hurting themselves and each other.

Infidelity will not help either one of them. Somebody needs to do something actually different from their pattern, but cheating isn't it. It would seem they were on the right path a year ago Valentine's day, but the malaise and old habits returned, they did not keep talking and listening to one another. 

The little day to day acts and gestures were probably not there. Tiny annoyances fester and multiply, and build on one another. Passion and attraction become incredibly scarce, criticism takes their place. Warmth leaves the interactions. Partners become roommates, or worse, and separate lives spring up together. They know each other, but they paradoxically don't know each other. The situation seems incredibly bleak. And it is, if neither one takes the lead to change the dynamic. 

Small changes, from one of them, can bring huge results. They could turn things around, amazingly quickly, and fall in love again, with the right nudge, and some determination.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Yes, I know precisely. From both sides.
> 
> We aren't getting the whole story here. My guess is he has felt rejected too. They got caught in a spiral of rejection and resentment. Punishment, because they don't know how to break the patterns. They don't know how to reach one another, to communicate deeply, to drop the pride bull****, to stop blaming and start solving. They are both hurting themselves and each other.
> 
> ...


I agree that it can be turned around. But both have to be willing to work on it. It seems that he's not willing. She cannot make him change or make him address it.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Ultimately, both of them will need to change, so they can become partners in their marriage, meeting each other's needs, and the familiy's too. But the change can start from unilateral action. I am a reader, I soak up information from books like a sponge, so I recommend books. Like these:
Divorce Busting, Michele Weiner Davis - great for communication, and for taking responsibility and action to improve your quality of life.
Divorce Busting: A Step-by-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again:Amazon:Books

Fight Less, Love More, Laurie Puhn. - Ways to tackle problems in a common sense way, and open direct, honest communication in areas of conflict.
Fight Less, Love More: 5-Minute Conversations to Change Your Relationship without Blowing Up or Giving In:Amazon:Books

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, John Gottman. - Ideas and activities to go through to understand each other more and strengthen your bond together.
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country's Foremost Relationship Expert:Amazon:Books

Slow Sex, Nicole Daedone - a recipe for reconnecting emotionally and physically.
Slow Sex: The Art and Craft of the Female Orgasm:Amazon:Books

How Can I Be Your Lover, When I'm Too Busy Being Your Mother? Sara Dimerman and J. Kearns. - Common passion killing pitfalls that couples unwittingly succumb to, and how to become partners again.
How Can I Be Your Lover When I'm Too Busy Being Your Mother?: The Answer to Becoming Partners Again:Amazon:Books

That's a good pile to start with. If you start to change the dynamic for the better, your husband cannot help but change too. You might be surprised how easy it is, once you have some constructive goals and direction!

Looks like the amazon links don't like copy and paste this way. Find the live links on this post : talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/60405-just-doesnt-feel-like-i-care-anymore-3.html#post1246455


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Ultimately, both of them will need to change, so they can become partners in their marriage, meeting each other's needs, and the familiy's too. But the change can start from unilateral action. I am a reader, I soak up information from books like a sponge, so I recommend books. Like these:
> Divorce Busting, Michele Weiner Davis - great for communication, and for taking responsibility and action to improve your quality of life.
> Divorce Busting: A Step-by-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again:Amazon:Books
> 
> ...


I agree that if she changes he will have to change. She will have no control over who he changes. Hopefully they both will change in a way that will bring back the spark and sex to their relationship.

It would definately be worth her while to spend the next year working from this angle. Then if things do not change for the better, she can leave him with the knowledge that she did everything she could to fix her marriage.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that it can be turned around. But both have to be willing to work on it. It seems that he's not willing. She cannot make him change or make him address it.


She cannot control him, but if she changes the dynamic, he cannot stay the same. He can try, but he can't control her either, so he would fail. He probably wouldn't try to stay though. It feels good to be wanted, loved and appreciated. It makes you want to do good things for the person who does that for you.

I know, because I want to do good things for the person who betrayed me. I now feel loved and appreciated, and it started with me changing my own behaviour to improve our situation. She did not want to change hers. She thought the problems were all me. I thought they were mostly her. They were both of us. She thought it was virtually hopeless. She figured our marriage was as good as over. I changed my behaviour, I caught on to the betrayal, and accelerated the changes, and then she changed for the better too.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

It's funny Elegirl, my posts look like exact answers to yours, but each was written before I read your answers to mine. I believe we are on the same page. I hope the real bright eyes joins us, and helps make the marriage that she deserves.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> She cannot control him, but if she changes the dynamic, he cannot stay the same. He can try, but he can't control her either, so he would fail. He probably wouldn't try to stay though. It feels good to be wanted, loved and appreciated. It makes you want to do good things for the person who does that for you.
> 
> I know, because I want to do good things for the person who betrayed me. I now feel loved and appreciated, and it started with me changing my own behaviour to improve our situation. She did not want to change hers. She thought the problems were all me. I thought they were mostly her. They were both of us. She thought it was virtually hopeless. She figured our marriage was as good as over. I changed my behaviour, I caught on to the betrayal, and accelerated the changes, and then she changed for the better too.


Both the Divorce Busting material and the Marriage Builder material are big on this idea. It can work. 

I'm glad to hear that you had such success.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Both the Divorce Busting material and the Marriage Builder material are big on this idea. It can work.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that you had such success.


Thank you, I wish I'd started when we were still at the point where bright eyes is, or sooner. Overcoming the existing problems was so easy it seems ridiculous in retrospect. Overcoming the infidelity on the other hand has been, and continues to be, the most difficult thing I have ever had to do. I have been damaged in so many ways. People just have no clue what they're really doing when they cheat.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

This is certainly a sad situation. Yes it's nice to live with someone you're so comfortable with but I can't imagine living without sex. Maybe I'm selfish but I want it all. I want a woman who is intelligent, strong, fit, beautiful and enjoys sex with me. Life is too short to accept anything less. 

It appears to me the underlying issue here is a form of inertia. No one is particularly happy yet are afraid of rocking the boat for fear of going from bad to worse. I appreciate the insurance issue. I'm no lawyer but surely there are seperation arrangements that can be made that have him keep the insurance in place. I've been divorced from my ex for 8 years now. To this day my dentist still submits claims to my ex's insurance who pay the deductible my insurance doesn't. :scratchhead:


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

TRBE...I'm not going to get into all the reasons why but I'm completely with you on this. I won't talk you off the ledge. People who have never experienced this type of betrayal will never understand it. Because what he has done is very much a betrayal of the marriage. A husband absolutely MUST fulfill his role to provide sex to his wife.

People who would willfully put their spouse through this kind of pain don't DESERVE your consideration and fidelity. That is going to be the least popular opinion here but I dont give a st anymore. After living through my 6 yrs of this crap I know it doesnt get better only worse for you. He will go on being fine. It's BS.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

TRBE, have you answered this yet?

Have you asked your husband why he has no attraction for you and what was his answer?


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

sinnister said:


> TRBE...I'm not going to get into all the reasons why but I'm completely with you on this. I won't talk you off the ledge. People who have never experienced this type of betrayal will never understand it. Because what he has done is very much a betrayal of the marriage. A *husband* absolutely MUST fulfill his role to provide sex to his wife.
> 
> People who would willfully put their spouse through this kind of pain don't DESERVE your consideration and fidelity. That is going to be the least popular opinion here but I dont give a st anymore. After living through my 6 yrs of this crap I know it doesnt get better only worse for you. He will go on being fine. It's BS.


And vice-versa.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

sinnister said:


> TRBE...I'm not going to get into all the reasons why but I'm completely with you on this. I won't talk you off the ledge. People who have never experienced this type of betrayal will never understand it. Because what he has done is very much a betrayal of the marriage. A husband absolutely MUST fulfill his role to provide sex to his wife.
> 
> People who would willfully put their spouse through this kind of pain don't DESERVE your consideration and fidelity. That is going to be the least popular opinion here but I dont give a st anymore. After living through my 6 yrs of this crap I know it doesnt get better only worse for you. He will go on being fine. It's BS.


Have you been cheated on? Done any cheating yourself? Dead set against divorce? Infidelity won't fix anything. Yes, the problem needs addressing one way or another, but to introduce another person isn't a good solution for anyone.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> So, after all this time and history, is your husband worth absolutely anything at all to you? I'm asking this because you seem to have no idea just how truly devastating the betrayal of infidelity is, not only to the betrayed, but to the betrayer (if they have a half a shred of decency in them, you seem to). Absolute, undistilled emotional agony. Utter hell. No one deserves it. No one, not even a cheater (well maybe the OM... no, not even the POSOM.). Read the threads on this forum, look at the raw pain that comes on d day, and lasts for years! You can't undo cheating, ever. Your fidelity is not for your husband, it is for you. Look in the mirror now. Imagine looking in the mirror knowing you betrayed yourself. Every day, for the rest of your life. Once you cheat, you will always be a cheater.
> 
> Don't do that to yourself. Don't do that to your husband. If he is so horrible now, divorce him. The insurance thing is not insurmountable, if that is what you really want deep down.
> 
> I suspect your marriage can be saved though. Marriage is hard work, very hard. You have to work at it constantly to keep things in balance. Who said it would be easy? Affairs are easy. Infatuation is easy. Real life is set aside for a time, so it seems really easy, fated even. But then reality comes crashing in sooner or later, and if you think things were hard before, you have no idea just how ****ing hard it can be. And then you have to look in the mirror to see who is to blame.


I agree. Marriage is about learning to be humble. It is a crucible that makes us stronger and better as individuals. Yet, we don't have to do it alone. The only thing harder and more humbling is raising children. Not everyone is cut out for one or both of these. I have lots of friends who know this and are single and happy. I prefer to do the work of having a mate but it is a choice. You owe it to your partner to put in the work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sinnister said:


> TRBE...I'm not going to get into all the reasons why but I'm completely with you on this. I won't talk you off the ledge. People who have never experienced this type of betrayal will never understand it. Because what he has done is very much a betrayal of the marriage. A husband absolutely MUST fulfill his role to provide sex to his wife.
> 
> People who would willfully put their spouse through this kind of pain don't DESERVE your consideration and fidelity. That is going to be the least popular opinion here but I dont give a st anymore. After living through my 6 yrs of this crap I know it doesnt get better only worse for you. He will go on being fine. It's BS.


I'm not advocating infidelity here, and I realize that in some cases this can be turned around. But in many cases it cannot. And when it cannot...

When a person does something like this... withholding of sex they are not only causing their spouse a lot of emotional pain over the gross rejection. They are also putting a huge burden on their spouse to have to make some very hard decisions. It forces the non-withholding spouse into the position of being the 'bad guy' who decided on divorce, who broke up the marriage and the family.

Perhaps her husband is taking this passive agressive stance to get her to be the one who files for divorce. Maybe he feels then he's not responsible. Maybe he thinks he'll get a better deal in divorce court is he pushes her to be the one to do this.

It's just another dynamic that could be going on. If this is the case it's very unfair. Generaly passive agression is an unfair and mean way of dealing with issues.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Therealbrighteyes,
> 
> I understand what you are going through as I've been through it as well. What he's doing is basically emotional abuse. To refuse to meet one of your most important emotional needs is just wrong.
> 
> ...


If he was on this forum I would give him the exact same advice. Is he here? TRBE have you shared this with him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> I agree. Marriage is about learning to be humble. It is a crucible that makes us stronger and better as individuals. Yet, we don't have to do it alone. The only thing harder and more humbling is raising children. Not everyone is cut out for one or both of these. I have lots of friends who know this and are single and happy. I prefer to do the work of having a mate but it is a choice. You owe it to your partner to put in the work.


And how long does one put in that work? What is the point at which they can finally say I've done what I can and it's not going to make the situation better? I'm in too much pain here and I cannot effect a solution that I can live with?

That does happen. Sometimes, fairly often, all the trying, all the humility, all the porn, strip clubs, etc do not turn the marriage and the lack of sex around. Sometimes the withholding spouse really does not care and/or does not want to fix it. How many years does a person work at it before it's ok to throw in the towel?

At some point the rejected person does not owe it to their partner to put in any more work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> If he was on this forum I would give him the exact same advice. Is he here? TRBE have you shared this with him?


You would give a man of a LD wife, or a wife who is rejecting him sexually the same advice? You would tell him to take her to strip clubs and watch porn with her? Really? You think that would make her want to have sex with him more?


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> And how long does one put in that work? What is the point at which they can finally say I've done what I can and it's not going to make the situation better? I'm in too much pain here and I cannot effect a solution that I can live with?
> 
> That does happen. Sometimes, fairly often, all the trying, all the humility, all the porn, strip clubs, etc do not turn the marriage and the lack of sex around. Sometimes the withholding spouse really does not care and/or does not want to fix it. How many years does a person work at it before it's ok to throw in the towel?
> 
> At some point the rejected person does not owe it to their partner to put in any more work.


I agree but is she seeking advice on how to divorce or how to work on her marriage? If she isn't planning to leave for at least one more year, she is obligated to keep working on it. I think she was looking for permission to cheat while she waits out the year. I am suggesting options for staying or leaving without causing horrible damage to both of them that will last a lifetime.

Do think cheating on your husband is better than sharing porn, fantasies and strip clubs?:scratchhead:


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> And how long does one put in that work? What is the point at which they can finally say I've done what I can and it's not going to make the situation better? I'm in too much pain here and I cannot effect a solution that I can live with?
> 
> That does happen. Sometimes, fairly often, all the trying, all the humility, all the porn, strip clubs, etc do not turn the marriage and the lack of sex around. Sometimes the withholding spouse really does not care and/or does not want to fix it. How many years does a person work at it before it's ok to throw in the towel?
> 
> At some point the rejected person does not owe it to their partner to put in any more work.


Sometimes the "withholding spouse" does not understand the withholding him/herself. You can put in all the work you can; see doctors, get counseling, try supplements, etc., but still cannot get at the bottom of why you don't want to have sex. And it may have nothing to do with your partner.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> And how long does one put in that work? What is the point at which they can finally say I've done what I can and it's not going to make the situation better? I'm in too much pain here and I cannot effect a solution that I can live with?
> 
> That does happen. Sometimes, fairly often, all the trying, all the humility, all the porn, strip clubs, etc do not turn the marriage and the lack of sex around. Sometimes the withholding spouse really does not care and/or does not want to fix it. How many years does a person work at it before it's ok to throw in the towel?
> 
> At some point the rejected person does not owe it to their partner to put in any more work.


Absolutely, but they shouldn't cheat their way out the door.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You would give a man of a LD wife, or a wife who is rejecting him sexually the same advice? You would tell him to take her to strip clubs and watch porn with her? Really? You think that would make her want to have sex with him more?


Yes. People with low-drive require greater sexual stimulation to increase their desire. You also are ignoring the other parts of my advice such as sharing fantasies. Talking about sex is the only way someone with low-drive is gonna have a chance of increasing their drive. That of course means someone willing to overcome their own issues to support their spouse. If you wanna dig in your heals about what is acceptable despite your partners desires, you can't solve this problem.

We all need to accepted as we are. Most of us share some shame around our sexual desires and need to have our partner accept those desires and love us anyway. The desire doesn't go away because your partner is won't accept it. It just goes underground and they are farther apart.

If he likes porn is he obligated to give it up because she is against it?


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

Here something that could be causing the distance. If he took care of her during her cancer, he may not realize how displaced he is feeling now that she is doing better. Perhaps he had to make adjustments to his sexual desires during the height of dealing with the cancer and can't get back to a good place. He could resent not being needed as much as he once was. You both need counseling, IC and MC. Things are too far gone to ignore this need. 

Also, TRBE if you are truly done with him or feel you need to do a 180 to snap him out of it, you could separate. His insurance can't just drop you when you are married and it is true he could be required to keep you on his insurance during and after divorce. 

If you guys love each other so deeply and have a rich friendship your marriage can be salvaged. But only if you both find your issues and deal with them. Face your demons. The sex issue isn't a one-sided thing. If he is having a problem with desire and overcoming "laziness" you should stick with him to work it out. I don't think a year of this problem is a good enough reason to leave and it doesn't sound like you have explored all options.

The most important sex organ is the one between your ears, it can giveth and it can taketh away.

One more thing on the porn subject. If you don't want to watch it because you see as exploitation you don't want to be a part of, could you fantasize with him about what he would want to see. You can play porn movies in your minds and no one would be hurt.

All men like sexual images. You don't have to indulge it in only one way. Be creative.

Good luck. Please don't break your own heart by cheating and don't destroy the heart of a good man who is having a problem.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> I agree but is she seeking advice on how to divorce or how to work on her marriage? If she isn't planning to leave for at least one more year, she is obligated to keep working on it. I think she was looking for permission to cheat while she waits out the year. I am suggesting options for staying or leaving without causing horrible damage to both of them that will last a lifetime.
> 
> Do think cheating on your husband is better than sharing porn, fantasies and strip clubs?:scratchhead:


I think you left a word out of that last sentence. I think it was meant to say “Do you think”…. Of course I do not think that cheating on her husband is a viable solution. IF you have read my posts you would know that this is my stance.
One of the points I was making is that you said you would give the same advice to a man with the same issue. I doubt that you would tell a man whose wife is withhold sex to share porn and strip clubs with his wife to get her interested in sex with him. I have never seen a thread in which a man who was not getting any sex has been told by almost everyone that HE needs to try harder to fix the marriage. Usually the posters tell him to tell her to start putting out or that he should get out.

I also do not think that sharing porn and going to strip clubs will necessarily get to the bottom of the problem. This is not the advice you would give a man so it’s not true that you would give a man the same advice you are giving her. There is something much deeper going on here that porn and strip clugs will not fix.

She is not looking for permission to cheat. She’s voicing extreme frustration. She herself said that this is what she’s doing. And yes if she is going to be there for a year she should try to work on fixing the marriage while she is still with him.

But… maybe she feels that she has done all that is humanly possible to fix the marriage. She has also said that they have worked very hard on the marriage but the fixes do not stick. Only she can make that decision. 

If she feels that she has done all that she could to do fix the marriage then taking a year to get into a position to be able to leave is also reasonable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> Absolutely, but they shouldn't cheat their way out the door.


One thing you seem to have missed is that she voiced the thing about cheating because she is so frustrated and hurt... not because she plans to cheat. She has said that very clearly. Somehow you missed it.

And I'm not even suggesting that she cheat so I'm not sure why you seem to think I am.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bobka said:


> Sometimes the "withholding spouse" does not understand the withholding him/herself. You can put in all the work you can; see doctors, get counseling, try supplements, etc., but still cannot get at the bottom of why you don't want to have sex. And it may have nothing to do with your partner.


This is true except that I think that withhold sex from a partner always has something to do with the partner ( baring things like a spouse who suffered a brutal rape). It’s rejection of the spouse. I’ve read a lot on this topic and it’s pretty much the consensus of everything I’ve read.
In the case where a person cannot return to having a sex life with their spouse and the spouse wants a sex life and is devastated by the rejection… the marriage is DEAD.

And …. When a man comes to this forum saying that his wife is withholding sex, he is not told to just keep working on meeting her needs and to put up with the fact she no longer wants sex with him.

Instead the posters attack her, say that she’s just using him, that she’s a cold b!tch and on and one. There is no consideration at all given to what might be going on with her. Instead her not giving him sex is seen as the ultimate horrid act of a mean, selfish wife.

I find it curious that people are not reacting that way when a husband is withholding sex from his wife. Instead she’s supposed to be sensitive to him and try harder. I agree that as long as she is there with him she may as well keep trying things. But I also believe that him withholding sex from her is every but as hurtful and mean as when a woman does it to a man… and she has every right to divorce him over it.. .just as a man has every right to divorce a wife who withholds sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> Yes. People with low-drive require greater sexual stimulation to increase their desire. You also are ignoring the other parts of my advice such as sharing fantasies.
> Talking about sex is the only way someone with low-drive is gonna have a chance of increasing their drive. That of course means someone willing to overcome their own issues to support their spouse. If you wanna dig in your heals about what is acceptable despite your partners desires, you can't solve this problem.
> 
> We all need to accepted as we are. Most of us share some shame around our sexual desires and need to have our partner accept those desires and love us anyway. The desire doesn't go away because your partner is won't accept it. It just goes underground and they are farther apart.
> ...


When he married her he accepted her stance on porn. He should live by what he accepted or leave. 

If it’s the case that he needs porn so bad that he has to take it underground due to her not accepting porn I really do not think that her accepting porn is the answer. TRBE is not unreasonable in her rejection of porn. There is a serious down side to that industry that she has experienced personally. People are seriously abused and injured in the production of a lot of porn. She has every right to not want to participate by being a user of it.

So if he needs porn so badly that he has to take it underground then he is in a marriage with the wrong woman.

Did she ever say that she did not share fantasies with him? Did she say that she did not do wild things with him? Nope.. but you are making that assumption.

What do you see as his responsibilities in this? You seem to let him off scott free. Doe he not have some responsibilities to get himself back on track in the relationship?


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This is true except that I think that withhold sex from a partner always has something to do with the partner ( baring things like a spouse who suffered a brutal rape). It’s rejection of the spouse. I’ve read a lot on this topic and it’s pretty much the consensus of everything I’ve read.
> In the case where a person cannot return to having a sex life with their spouse and the spouse wants a sex life and is devastated by the rejection… the marriage is DEAD.
> 
> And …. When a man comes to this forum saying that his wife is withholding sex, he is not told to just keep working on meeting her needs and to put up with the fact she no longer wants sex with him.
> ...


I absolutely give the keep trying advice to the man. I was in a long term relationship where the sex broke down. I lost interest My partner did not keep trying with me and eventually we came apart. 

I lost interest in sex in my marriage. My husband never gave up. He hung in there with me and always let me know he wanted me and desired me. When I discovered his EA I knew he truly desired me and not her. The EA was about other needs being met. Now because of sharing the sides of ourselves that I have been suggesting all in conversation, our sex life is back.

I am still friends with the man from the first relationship. Not closely but occasional emails of which my husband is aware and can read. Because I knew about how he gave up on me, I reminded him to keep trying with his wife when he indicated he had marital problems. I don't know if they had a sexual disconnect or not (not my business) but he thanked me for reminding him that was one of our problems.

I have seen lots of threads wherein people have suggested the reason the wife doesn't want sex is because of a problem with the man.

You are so focused on the words porn and strip clubs you are ignoring the actual advice I offer. And saying you feel so frustrated you want to cheat on a forum like this is a way of asking permission to do so. If a man posted it, I bet you would see it that way. You are the one caught up in the gender side of things. In fact, I gave the same advice to DevistatedDad on his thread so it isn't just advice for women.

Best of luck to you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> I have seen lots of threads wherein people have suggested the reason the wife doesn't want sex is because of a problem with the man.


Yes I have been one of those who have made this suggestion. And you know what… the get a lot of negative responses for other posters for suggesting this. That’s my point… that when the roles are reversed very different advice is the norm on these forums. 



Rihanna said:


> You are so focused on the words porn and strip clubs you are ignoring the actual advice I offer.


No I’m not focused on the words ‘pron’ and ‘strip clubs’. Don’t turn this around and try to now make me into a prude. The point is that you said you would give the exact advise to a man to get his wife interested in sex. And I really don’t think you would. You would not tell a man to take this wife to a strip club. I really doubt that.



Rihanna said:


> And saying you feel so frustrated you want to cheat on a forum like this is a way of asking permission to do so. If a man posted it, I bet you would see it that way. You are the one caught up in the gender side of things. In fact, I gave the same advice to DevistatedDad on his thread so it isn't just advice for women.


There have been plenty of men posting here who have said that they are so frustrated that cheating has crossed their minds. And no I do not think that most of them are here looking for permission to cheat. I think that they are speaking in frustration and blowing off steam.

I brought out the gender double standard because it is SO very stricking this thread.

You told DevistateDad to share porn with his wife and take her to strip clubs? I’ll have to go look at that thread.

I hope to see on the threads by men who complain about their LD wives and no sex wives and that you give them the same advice you have given TRBE.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> In fact, I gave the same advice to DevistatedDad on his thread so it isn't just advice for women.


I read all of your posts on his thread. I did not see any similar advice to him.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Part of the problem here is that TRBE stops the line of inquiry too soon when talking about this. That is completely normal. I wouldn't be surprised to find that most people would do the same thing. What if; upon receiving the completely outrageous answers to her questions, TRBE set aside the hurt, the outrage, the indignation, and instead stayed calm, cool, and collected, and actively pursued what is behind his answers? Why does he feel that way? How long has he felt that way? What does he think she thinks (I will bet he has a slight gist, but is mostly wrong)

I bet that at some point he felt she with held sex from him, maybe she has, for perfectly legitimate reasons. He got sick of what he took as personal rejection, and decided it would be better to never ask again, to suppress his sex drive as much as he possibly can, to eliminate the weakness and take the power away from his wife to humiliate him (in his own head). And in the beginning, TRBE probably didn't even notice. He probably made his decision silently. Then after a while, maybe she noticed he was no longer asking for sex. She drops hints, but he won't pick them up, either he doesn't get them, or he does want to get back in the cycle again, or he is going to punish her, to let her know what it feels like not to be wanted. But they never talk about it openly, honestly, directly. That would make you vulnerable, and you can't have that. Not with someone you don't really trust.

At some point, someone has to get sane and break the vicious pattern of action and reaction. There are good ways, and bad ways. Effective and ineffective. I bet TRBE feels like she has tried, really tried everything. I think she probably has tried, a lot of ineffective ways. Her methods have probably been to try what would work on her, but they don't work on him the way she thinks they should. She hasn't stumbled onto an effective way yet, because it will take something outside the realm of her experience to work on him. Those books I posted give lots of little things to start practicing. Things that will ratchet down the ill will, too start reaching effectively for the other.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Part of the problem here is that TRBE stops the line of inquiry too soon when talking about this. That is completely normal. I wouldn't be surprised to find that most people would do the same thing. What if; upon receiving the completely outrageous answers to her questions, TRBE set aside the hurt, the outrage, the indignation, and instead stayed calm, cool, and collected, and actively pursued what is behind his answers? Why does he feel that way? How long has he felt that way? What does he think she thinks (I will bet he has a slight gist, but is mostly wrong)
> 
> I bet that at some point he felt she with held sex from him, maybe she has, for perfectly legitimate reasons. He got sick of what he took as personal rejection, and decided it would be better to never ask again, to suppress his sex drive as much as he possibly can, to eliminate the weakness and take the power away from his wife to humiliate him (in his own head). And in the beginning, TRBE probably didn't even notice. He probably made his decision silently. Then after a while, maybe she noticed he was no longer asking for sex. She drops hints, but he won't pick them up, either he doesn't get them, or he does want to get back in the cycle again, or he is going to punish her, to let her know what it feels like not to be wanted. But they never talk about it openly, honestly, directly. That would make you vulnerable, and you can't have that. Not with someone you don't really trust.
> 
> At some point, someone has to get sane and break the vicious pattern of action and reaction. There are good ways, and bad ways. Effective and ineffective. I bet TRBE feels like she has tried, really tried everything. I think she probably has tried, a lot of ineffective ways. Her methods have probably been to try what would work on her, but they don't work on him the way she thinks they should. She hasn't stumbled onto an effective way yet, because it will take something outside the realm of her experience to work on him. Those books I posted give lots of little things to start practicing. Things that will ratchet down the ill will, too start reaching effectively for the other.


Boy do I want to hear TRBE's response to this assumption.

Do you assume that this is normally the case when men withhold sex from their wife?


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Boy do I want to hear TRBE's response to this assumption.
> 
> Do you assume that this is normally the case when men withhold sex from their wife?


That really is quite a stretch, you're right, EleGirl.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

SadandAngry said:


> Have you been cheated on? Done any cheating yourself? Dead set against divorce? Infidelity won't fix anything. Yes, the problem needs addressing one way or another, but to introduce another person isn't a good solution for anyone.


Yup been cheated on too. Wasnt married but we were almost there...for my part. My opinion remains unchanged. It is absolutely a huge betrayal of your vows to ignore sex.

People here can easily tell you not to cheat because they aren't living your life. Nobody knows what my childhood was like. Nobody knows why I've chosen to never, EVER leave my little angels. This place is great for support but severely lacking in empathy. So I trust TRBE to make the right decision FOR HER. I'm not going by a playbook that's written in black and white. My life and personal struggles has taught me life is full of more colours than the human eyes can see.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Boy do I want to hear TRBE's response to this assumption.
> 
> Do you assume that this is normally the case when men withhold sex from their wife?


I'd rather hear the hubs answer, because she doesn't know it. 

I do not think it is far fetched by any means. This is just operant conditioning in conjunction with poor communication. Ask a question (want sex?), get a no (rejected, in his mind, there could be a very good reason for not wanting sex), (the reason could be ongoing, eg medical) repeat, it won't take too long before he starts to doubt things. At some point he just stops asking (because he gets punished for asking, but rarely rewarded). 

Not only does he stop asking, he might make dubious assumptions as to what she is thinking perhaps (cause she has become a frigid ***** in his mind), esp if the wife started to rely on the old chestnuts like, I'm tired, I have a headache, etc.. I think too many people don't talk truly honestly about sex with their partners. It is hard work to put yourself out there, even with your spouse, maybe esp. with your spouse. Look how often cheaters share and do far more with an AP than they ever did at home.

It is apparently surprising just how wrong people can be about their spouses. What more evidence do we need than the level of shock and surprise that usually accompanies d day?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

He got to where he is somehow. He doesn't seem ill to her, he apparently still has a sex drive (notoriously hard to keep it repressed don't you know!), he used to desire her, he isn't above being petty, and she tolerated it, their communication is not optimal. What's the big stretch?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> He got to where he is somehow. He doesn't seem ill to her, he apparently still has a sex drive (notoriously hard to keep it repressed don't you know!), he used to desire her, he isn't above being petty, and she tolerated it, their communication is not optimal. What's the big stretch?


The big stretch is to think that the cause is probably because she turned him down some times in the past.

Why do you think this is such a likely cause?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

My ex W admitted that she turned me, down lots after I turned her down a couple times much earlier in the marriage. I don't know if sandc's scenario is the case or not, but it is not entirely far fetched...

And to expand on it, it may not be that she turned down the act of sex, rather just some aspect that he may feel he wanted more of but compromised on in order to get some kind of sex, even if he still enjoyed it. I still believe that there is something sexually he needs/wants that he has been too foolish to discuss.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Entirely supposition, playing the stereotypes, but clues for me are past illness. Battling cancer is not great for the libido. She says she does a lot for him. I did not get the impression he did a lot around the house, it wasn't his role. One of the books presents a theory about that, the lover/mother thing. Utterly devastating to a sex life, from both sides. It seems usual that the wife loses attraction first, but eventually, both succumb. Could be he feels it more acutely. 

In the end there are a ton of theories, but what ever the case, their present patterns are not serving them. One of them has to break the pattern, to go off the script they've written. That's what matters, though it would be valuable for them to talk in depth to figure out how the patterns started. To be aware of their bad habits and weak spots. Like conflict avoidance.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I am not saying it is ok to withhold sex, I am not saying it is a good strategy, I'm not saying it isn't horrible. I'm saying I could see how it can get started, fester, and breed massive discontent, over something that in reality started out quite minorly. There are excellent reasons people might have to not want sex. Poor communication could easily lead to the frequency and quality dropping away. Factors start to pile on top of each other, and the decline is parabolic, and the negativity increases in kind. All people can be quite ludicrously stupid sometimes.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Could be she never withheld. Could be he is an ass, using sex as a cruel weapon, to get back at her for something else. That would be unusual, I think men tend to compartmentalize sex, and treat it as an end in itself, as opposed to women who would entangle their sex drive and desire with more of the things going on in other areas of life. Ever hear the notion that a man doing dishes is sexy? Why? Because that relieves her of some burden from daily stress maybe?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lon said:


> My ex W admitted that she turned me, down lots after I turned her down a couple times much earlier in the marriage. I don't know if sandc's scenario is the case or not, but it is not entirely far fetched...
> 
> And to expand on it, it may not be that she turned down the act of sex, rather just some aspect that he may feel he wanted more of but compromised on in order to get some kind of sex, even if he still enjoyed it. I still believe that there is something sexually he needs/wants that he has been too foolish to discuss.


So if that assumption is made in this case, or at least used as a very likely case, then it's probably just as likely that it's the same in the case of women who end sex in their marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Could be she never withheld. Could be he is an ass, using sex as a cruel weapon, to get back at her for something else. That would be unusual, I think men tend to compartmentalize sex, and treat it as an end in itself, as opposed to women who would entangle their sex drive and desire with more of the things going on in other areas of life. Ever hear the notion that a man doing dishes is sexy? Why? Because that relieves her of some burden from daily stress maybe?


I've done a lot of reading on the topic of men who withhold sex in marriage due to my situation. Those who study these things seem to say that when a man withholds sex it's usually because of anger/resentment. It's used as a passive agressive way to punish their wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Could be she never withheld. Could be he is an ass, using sex as a cruel weapon, to get back at her for something else. That would be unusual, I think men tend to compartmentalize sex, and treat it as an end in itself, as opposed to women who would entangle their sex drive and desire with more of the things going on in other areas of life. Ever hear the notion that a man doing dishes is sexy? Why? Because that relieves her of some burden from daily stress maybe?


Women, because they have children, tend to seek men who take care of them. Men who they feel they can trust to have children with. If we go back to early man, caves and all that it's highly unlikely that a female and her children could survive without a male to hunt, protect her and care for her. So women look for men who take care of them. That's also a large part of the doing dishes thing is about... he's doing things to take care of her.. to relieve the burden.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Entirely supposition, playing the stereotypes, but clues for me are past illness. Battling cancer is not great for the libido. She says she does a lot for him. I did not get the impression he did a lot around the house, it wasn't his role. One of the books presents a theory about that, the lover/mother thing. Utterly devastating to a sex life, from both sides. It seems usual that the wife loses attraction first, but eventually, both succumb. Could be he feels it more acutely.


She said that this started before she had cancer.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

My little conjecture dovetails with that finding. Do they list the most common sources of anger or resentment?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

We can speculate what happened with TRBE's marriage. There are probably quite a few scenarios we can come up with. None of it matters because we don't know enough about her marriage and both of them.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Women, because they have children, tend to seek men who take care of them. Men who they feel they can trust to have children with. If we go back to early man, caves and all that it's highly unlikely that a female and her children could survive without a male to hunt, protect her and care for her. So women look for men who take care of them. That's also a large part of the doing dishes thing is about... he's doing things to take care of her.. to relieve the burden.


How about when the caveman feels he has done enough by going out and hunting and bringing home the bacon? That's not so sexy, and a recipe for resentment for the wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> My little conjecture dovetails with that finding. Do they list the most common sources of anger or resentment?


There was no short list of sources of anger/resentment. I think it's unique to each man.

Yes it dovetials in that if she did turn him down even once he might resent her for it. But there is no reason to believe that she has turned him down or that he resents it to this extent if she did. 

There are so many things that spouses can find to resent each other for .... picking one over the other when we have no clue of their entire situation is of little use really.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There was no short list of sources of anger/resentment. I think it's unique to each man.
> 
> Yes it dovetials in that if she did turn him down even once he might resent her for it. But there is no reason to believe that she has turned him down or that he resents it to this extent if she did.
> 
> There are so many things that spouses can find to resent each other for .... picking one over the other when we have no clue of their entire situation is of little use really.


Sure, that was one paragraph out of three. It's just an example of how small things blow up into big things and get drawn out over time. Open, honest, non defensive communication is a key to getting to the bottom of things. But you don't have to start there. Big solutions can get their start in small, unilateral gestures, decisions, and actions by one partner, just like the big problems.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> How about when the caveman feels he has done enough by going out and hunting and bringing home the bacon? That's not so sexy, and a recipe for resentment for the wife.


The thing about resentment in marriage is that it is a very personal thing. What causes one person to be resentful might not cause another one to be resentful.

For example maybe the caveman is right, maybe he spent 80 hours this week bringing home the bacon (on 4 legs with a clubbed in skull) while she had plenty of time to clean those dishes. Thus her resentment might not be reasonable.

Couples HAVE to discuss this type of thing. They have to tell each other what they expect, need and negotiate. To just hold resentment and use it passive agressively or even overtly with angry outburts etc it just wrong in a marriage. Very common but wrong.

IMO, if a person refuses to address such things with their spouse and work through them to find an answer they shoulder the blame for the distruction of their marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Sure, that was one paragraph out of three. It's just an example of how small things blow up into big things and get drawn out over time. Open, honest, non defensive communication is a key to getting to the bottom of things. But you don't have to start there. Big solutions can get their start in small, unilateral gestures, decisions, and actions by one partner, just like the big problems.


I agree that small things can lead to solutions for big problems.

But it's also true that they do not always.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that small things can lead to solutions for big problems.
> 
> But it's also true that they do not always.


Yes, the real trick is to figure out WHAT small things will work in a given situation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Yes, the real trick is to figure out WHAT small things will work in a given situation.


There is not always a small trick that will work. I'm not being pessimistic. It's pretty clear that we can not always cause another person to change in the manner we want them to change.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Agreed, but then you end it and make a graceful exit with your self worth and dignity intact. You don't move on to infidelity.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> So if that assumption is made in this case, or at least used as a very likely case, then it's probably just as likely that it's the same in the case of women who end sex in their marriage.


Yes, it could be the other way around, I'm not speaking about that case though, I am discussing the possible resentment in TRBE's H.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

It is very difficult for the human mind to process and deal with abuse.
Most times we tend to form coping mechanism to deal with it, which in the long run does more harm to us than good.
Abuse is any treatment that is given to another person that falls below the normal, accepted standard ,with the intent of inflicting pain.
OP, my suggestion is to seek professional help for yourself. I have said it before, forget your husband. Based on what you have posted several times on this forum, clearly you have suffered abuse not only from him, but from other men in your past. 
Deal with yourself. Find peace in yourself.
It no longer matters who's wrong or right in the marriage , what matters now is YOU and your peace of mind.
It's time for letting go.
Circumstances may prevent divorce at this point,but you can use the time to work on yourself , so that when the time comes to move on , you would be in a better , stronger place emotionally.
It is time to put an end to this abuse.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> So if that assumption is made in this case, or at least used as a very likely case, then it's probably just as likely that it's the same in the case of women who end sex in their marriage.


Yes, I would go along with that. Sex becomes a tool, rather than an end in itself. It can be used to reward or punish behaviour. At worst it becomes a dreaded chore, and unpleasant things flow from that.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yes I have been one of those who have made this suggestion. And you know what… the get a lot of negative responses for other posters for suggesting this. That’s my point… that when the roles are reversed very different advice is the norm on these forums.
> 
> 
> No I’m not focused on the words ‘pron’ and ‘strip clubs’. Don’t turn this around and try to now make me into a prude. The point is that you said you would give the exact advise to a man to get his wife interested in sex. And I really don’t think you would. You would not tell a man to take this wife to a strip club. I really doubt that.
> ...


Not suggesting you are prudish. You are taking my overall suggestion out of context. My suggestion is to communicate erotically. I suggested talking about sexual things that are not romantic but sexy to stimulate the libido. It can open the door to rewiring his brain to feel safe to open up to her sexually. He was honest enough to tell her he thought about cheating and she got mad. He was making a huge effort and made himself vulnerable. He is trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Everything he said he loves about you sounds like he's in love but doesn't know it.

It made me smile when reading that. 

I don't know about the sexual stuff though  That would be more than frustrating.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Seems like he's looking for the rainbows and unicorns feeling? Im w/ That Girl- sounds like he's in love to me??? Dont know what the sexual issues are but sounds like the love is there. But Ive said many times 'love' alone is not enough. I hope you can get into some counseling and work this out TRBE. I wouldnt stay in a sexless marriage regardless of how much I loved him.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rihanna said:


> Not suggesting you are prudish. You are taking my overall suggestion out of context. My suggestion is to communicate erotically. I suggested talking about sexual things that are not romantic but sexy to stimulate the libido. It can open the door to rewiring his brain to feel safe to open up to her sexually. He was honest enough to tell her he thought about cheating and she got mad. He was making a huge effort and made himself vulnerable. He is trying.


Maybe he was being vulnerable. Or maybe he was telling her that as another way to hurt her. We don't know.

She is the one who is here so she is the one who will get the suggtions of what to do.

My sense is that she is to hurt, too injured now to do sexy things to try to get him out of where he's stuck.

She's hurt beyond the point where she can do it at this time. Can she work on herself and back to such a point? I don't know. Does she care enough to get back to that point? I don't know that either. Is she obligated to get to that point? No. The well being of the marriage is not her responsiblity soley.

I agree with Caribbean Man on this. She needs to take care of herself now because no else is. When it gets to the point in a marriage when the spouse does not care enough about your needs to help keep you whole, then it's time to take care of yourself.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He loves me because he can tell me anything and I the same. He loves that I get him. He loves that I always have his back. He loves that I am his greatest cheerleader. He loves that when he comes home, he knows I will be there with an understanding ear. He loves that I look good. He loves that I can (in his words) light up a room and he said he has no intention of divorcing me, ever. He said we work well together and loves everything about me. *Not once did he mention sexual attraction or anything close to that.*


That sounds very queer to me, that he would say all those nice things that a normal guy would be all revved up for. Very queer. 



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Last night I told him about my desire to cheat and he didn't seem shocked. He understood and said he too has thought of it. Wow! He has rejected me time and time again and yet wants sex from others? A wife who wants sex 24/7 and he doesn't?


Occam's Razor. Maybe he wants a style of sex for which nature has not equipped you. You wouldn't be the first to be in that predicament.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> That sounds very queer to me, that he would say all those nice things that a normal guy would be all revved up for. Very queer.
> 
> 
> 
> Occam's Razor. Maybe he wants a style of sex for which nature has not equipped you. You wouldn't be the first to be in that predicament.


I didnt want to touch this but I am very much reminded of someone from my past who turned out to be gay. HE told me the same things about how he loved me but wasnt the least bit interested in sex... He's now my ex- husband.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> That sounds very queer to me, that he would say all those nice things that a normal guy would be all revved up for. Very queer.
> 
> 
> 
> Occam's Razor. Maybe he wants a style of sex for which nature has not equipped you. You wouldn't be the first to be in that predicament.


Machiavelli stole my angle... It is possible that there is something in the closet. Has the possibility been explored? Cuz all those qualities he talked about sound a little ... off... and girlie... Just saying...


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Or, like I suggested earlier is not that his missing element is not to be gay, but rather he may have an unfulfilled submissive streak in him.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Machiavelli stole my angle... It is possible that there is something in the closet. Has the possibility been explored? Cuz all those qualities he talked about sound a little ... off... and girlie... Just saying...


well I dont think they sound girlie if accompanied by manly statements and actions as well. If he had said those things and followed with statements/actions of sexual desire for her then that would be different.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

One of OP's primary issues over time has been that husband frequently, and blatantly checks out other, younger, women while with her ... I don't think he plays for the other team.

There is resentment on both sides. She has tried to bridge the gap, he keeps increasing it.

Knowing what I know of the OP I don't expect her to respond following the last 5+ pages of speculation. 

Were she to do so, I'm relatively confident that most people wouldn't like what she has to say. 

She's been here for some time. She knows the play book.

She was angry and wanted to vent. This one's for you TRBE ...


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> well I dont think they sound girlie if accompanied by manly statements and actions as well. If he had said those things and followed with statements/actions of sexual desire for her then that would be different.


Yeah, but he didn't...



> One of OP's primary issues over time has been that husband frequently, and blatantly checks out other, younger, women while with her ... I don't think he plays for the other team.


Just how blatantly? Could it be that he is thinking if those big heels would look good on him? I'm at loss to understand why a guy desires women and doesn't bang his wife. Damn, healthy men bang everything. And apparently he thinks she looks good!! WTF is wrong with him?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Deejo, I get where you're coming from, however I have some concern because from what I know of her the state of her marriage, from her perspective, is eroding away quickly. If it were a vent, then her next comments on TAM would hopefully be more positive, otherwise it's too bad that she won't engage in a less defensive manner that all our collective perspectives just can't fit the specifics of her personal situation.

Often the advice for frustrated members on here is to take the advice you want/need and leave the rest, so in that regard the more speculative opinions the better, and if she wants us to dial in our comments then she can provide feedback to what rings true and what doesn't, but her threads never seem to go like that.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My opinion? They are done. They have been done since long before the thread she posted.

She won't cheat. And that is probably what makes her even angrier.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I don't disagree. Sounds a lot like limbo.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Maybe he was being vulnerable. Or maybe he was telling her that as another way to hurt her. We don't know.
> 
> She is the one who is here so she is the one who will get the suggtions of what to do.
> 
> ...


Considering he was responding to he saying she was thinking of cheating, he was being honest and open. If he wasn't there was no need to for him to say it. Honest = vulnerable in this context. I am offering these suggestions to go along with the other advice offered here. I am not telling you you are wrong. Why don't you offer your own two cents and if she wants to question what I say, she can. Please know none of what I am saying is directed toward you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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