# Stop begging, groveling, and working overtime for SEX from your SPOUSE!



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm sorry, but it just needs to be said.

There are so many absolutely wonderful people on this forum. People who love their husbands and wives, people who work to please them, and validate them as human beings.

But there is a prevailing attitude here that it's OK to have to put in constant work for sex. I see people giving advice regularly on what buttons to push to "get" your spouse to sleep with you. People telling you to shower these stingy spouses with compliments, praises, help around the house, etc, all in a bid to squeeze a few drops of sex out of them every once in a while.

Stop. That is NOT what marriage is suppose to be like. Vital to a healthy marriage is the understanding that BOTH parties involved want to screw the other, and do it at relatively comparable paces. The existence of marriage is partially about eliminating the need to search for, and work constantly at, finding a suitable lover. If you need to work at it, then don't get married.

Marriage entitles you to regular, fulfilling sex with your husband or wife. That is a basic RIGHT of marriage, not a privilege, and not a favor. If your spouse is making you feel like sex is a reward or an optional thing, they are WRONG. You DO deserve better.

Baring any deep physiological or psychological issues, if your partner has decided to refuse you sex, and no matter what you do to express how much that hurts you they still won't budge, it's time to put that foot down and tell them that they need to engage with you, or it's time to discuss exit strategies. 

Please do NOT waste another year, another decade, a life time, in a cold bed with an unwilling, unfullfilling, ungrateful, dead fish spouse!


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

There is plenty truth in the post, I am glad the w knows my needs and takes them into CONSIDERATION lol. A marriage revolving around sex isn't a fulfilling and satisfying marriage. As sex is an integral part to marriage and connection etc, the relationship should be beyond sex alone (family, child baring etc). I also understand that it can never be done at my command, getting to that level plane of thinking with your spouse is tough if you're not already there.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I agree with your post to a point. Marriage, all facets of it, take work and I believe that that includes the sexual aspect of marriage. I believe that sex is an important aspect of marriage and, where physically and mentally possible, it should be taking place. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't take work. 

As for working to get sex, I'm a bit confused. If you mean that Spouse A won't have sex with Spouse B until Spouse B does xyz, then yeah, I agree that that is very wrong. However, there's nothing wrong with a husband or wife doing nice things for their spouse and getting sex after that. My husband bought me three sets of pearl earrings a few weeks ago. He heard me say that I love pearls and haven't owned any real pearl jewelry before. He came home with a dozen roses, put them in a circle on the table, and placed the jewelry box on top of the roses. I opened it, and there were three gorgeous pairs of pearl earrings. 

You don't think he got crazy hot sex for that? 

Just last week he secretly set up a spa appointment for me to get a pedicure with a thirty minute foot and lower leg massage, a facial and to have my eyebrows waxed. He payed for it and everything, then told me about it the day before, so all I had to do was show up and get pampered. Unfortunately I got sick this weekend, but once I'm better, he's DEFINITELY getting sex for that too! lol. 

I see nothing wrong in this. He knows I love to be pampered in all kinds of ways. I'd just as soon take a love letter written by him, and a meal cooked at home with maybe a surprise bottle of Beringer White Zinfandel...and he'd get sex for those too.  Now, that doesn't mean I don't or won't have sex unless I get something romantic, which I think was more what you meant. But I just wanted to clarify that sex CAN be seen as a "reward" and it not be a bad thing. When it's _only_ seen as a reward and nothing else, then I agree with you...something is wrong there.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> As for working to get sex, I'm a bit confused. If you mean that Spouse A won't have sex with Spouse B until Spouse B does xyz, then yeah, I agree that that is very wrong.


That is _exactly_ what I mean.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

What men need to know if that sex starts with making love to the woman's mind. Not "hey honey, wanna have sex?" If he has to ask for sex, he'll get turned down!

If he's loving to her outside of the bedroom, touches her, compliments her.........then things just might heat up IN the bedroom.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

southern wife said:


> What men need to know if that sex starts with making love to the woman's mind. Not "hey honey, wanna have sex?" If he has to ask for sex, he'll get turned down!
> 
> If he's loving to her outside of the bedroom, touches her, compliments her.........then things just might heat up IN the bedroom.



I don't believe in this. I do romantic things for my wife because I love her, and I want to express that to her. I have never, not even once, bought her a gift, or done something for her, with the expectation that things "might" heat up in the bedroom. I don't even have a language for that.

I don't believe in being constantly turned down, nor does my wife. Sure both of us are comfortable saying no, but the yeses far outweigh the noes. And we have sex because we enjoy making love to one another, connecting for the sake of sexual gratification, and emotional/spiritual release. Neither one of us acts a certain way outside the bedroom with the expectation that this "might" get us laid. There is no such thing as "things just might" in my marriage. The language is "things almost always will".


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I don't believe in this. I do romantic things for my wife because I love her, and I want to express that to her. I have never, not even once, bought her a gift, or done something for her, with the expectation that things "might" heat up in the bedroom. I don't even have a language for that.


Okay, I'm not trying to argue...I'm merely trying to clarify and understand what you're saying. I'm a woman, and any insight to how my husband might work would be of great help. 

You say that you _don't_ do things for your wife because things "might" heat up in the bedroom...Do you do things for her because you know they _will_ heat up? Or do you do things for her without any thought of sex at all?



jaquen said:


> I don't believe in being constantly turned down, nor does my wife. Sure both of us are comfortable saying no, but the yeses far out way the noes. And we have sex because we enjoying making love to one another, connecting for the sake of sexual gratification, and emotional/spiritual release. Neither one of us acts a certain way outside the bedroom with the expectation that this "might" get us laid. There is no such thing as "things just might" in my marriage. The language is "things almost always will".


That's really awesome to hear.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm sorry, but it just needs to be said.
> 
> There are so many absolutely wonderful people on this forum. People who love their husbands and wives, people who work to please them, and validate them as human beings.
> 
> ...


This could be taken both ways, Jaquen. It's just not that simple. If you want to talk about it that way, there are other "rights" in marriage as well. You are also "entitled" to be cherished, respected, and honored. This means different things for different people depending on their love language. For some, this might mean words of affirmation, for others it might be acts of service (washing the dishes, folding laundry, etc...) So, if you are "entitled" to sex because it is your love language, your spouse is also "entitled" to acts of service because it is his/her language.

My point is that this attitude of entitlement/my right simply will not work in a marriage. You won't get closer to meaningful sex with your spouse with that attitude.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I don't believe in this. I do romantic things for my wife because I love her, and I want to express that to her.


RIGHT!! And in return she wants to express love back to you! It keeps sexual energy alive.




> I have never, not even once, bought her a gift, or done something for her, with the expectation that things "might" heat up in the bedroom. I don't even have a language for that.


I never said anything about buying gifts............but for women, sex starts before even going into the bedroom........it's more mental and emotional for us. The acutal sexual act is the "emotional connection" for men. Most men get their emotional needs met through sex; most women do not.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Okay, I'm not trying to argue...I'm merely trying to clarify and understand what you're saying. I'm a woman, and any insight to how my husband might work would be of great help. You say that you don't do things for your wife because things "might" heat up in the bedroom...Do you do things for her because you know they will heat up? Or do you do things for her without any thought of sex at all?


Sex _never _crosses my mind when I do things for my wife. I have always made romantic gestures toward her, even when we were not in a sexual relationship. If I surprise her with a dinner I cooked, or a night out, gifts, flowers, if I write her a loving message, it's all just because. The thought that things could heat up as a result doesn't compute with me. One has nothing to do with another. These gestures existed when we weren't having sex during our celibacy, and exist still in the midst of, and independent of, our sex life.

The rate of sex does not increase with the rate of elevated romantic gestures.



momtwo4 said:


> This could be taken both ways, Jaquen. It's just not that simple. If you want to talk about it that way, there are other "rights" in marriage as well. You are also "entitled" to be cherished, respected, and honored. This means different things for different people depending on their love language. For some, this might mean words of affirmation, for others it might be acts of service (washing the dishes, folding laundry, etc...) So, if you are "entitled" to sex because it is your love language, your spouse is also "entitled" to acts of service because it is his/her language.


Absolutely. Did you read my OP though?

*People who love their husbands and wives, people who work to please them, and validate them as human beings.*

This thread isn't about being an ******* and a pig, and then still expecting regular sexual satisfaction. This advice is to people who are working like dogs to satisfy spouses who STILL treat sex like some kind of rare gift or privilege. 




momtwo4 said:


> My point is that this attitude of entitlement/my right simply will not work in a marriage. You won't get closer to meaningful sex with your spouse with that attitude.


If you're a decent spouse, YES you absolutely are entitled to sex. Absolutely. If one of the basic rights of marriage isn't the expectation of having one's sexual needs filled, then why get married? Why not just stay friends, or platonic roommates?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Sex _never _crosses my mind when I do things for my wife. I have always made romantic gestures toward her, even when we were not in a sexual relationship. If I surprise her with a dinner I cooked, or a night out, gifts, flowers, if I write her a loving message, it's all just because. The thought that things could heat up as a result doesn't compute with me. One has nothing to do with another. These gestures existed when we weren't having sex during our celibacy, and exist still in the midst of, and independent of, our sex life.
> 
> The rate of sex does not increase with the rate of elevated romantic gestures.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that sex is an important part of marriage, and that both spouses should realize that. What I don't like, is the word "entitled." Because that just turns sex into an obligation. Am I "entitled" to affection and love in my marriage? Most would probably argue that I am. But I don't want affection because it is "my right" or because I am "entitled" to it. I want it because it's freely given to me. I want it because my spouse gives it to me because it comes from his heart, his deepest core.

In marriage, any time you get into "entitlement" you are steering off course. Would you really want "entitled" sex any way? If you threaten your spouse, you might get more sex--at least for a while. They might offer fake enthusiasm and give you obligatory sex. But it can't last, and it's not authentic.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Sex never crosses my mind when I do things for my wife. I have always made romantic gestures toward her, even when we were not in a sexual relationship. If I surprise her with a dinner I cooked, or a night out, gifts, flowers, if I write her a loving message, it's all just because. The thought that things could heat up as a result doesn't compute with me. One has nothing to do with another. These gestures existed when we weren't having sex during our celibacy, and exist still in the midst of, and independent of, our sex life.
> 
> The rate of sex does not increase with the rate of elevated romantic gestures.


Interesting. 

As a woman, I can say that my thinking is entirely different. Not better, just different. For me, the romantic gestures he does absolutely have to do with sex. I mean, to me it makes sense...when my husband does those things for me, as big or as small as they may be, it speaks to my heart...it makes me want to be closer to him. I feel safe, loved, cherished...and for me, those things are what speak to my...well, you know. 

In the opposite way, if my husband has been snappy and rude to me all day, chances are I'm not going to feel inclined to make love with him. 

Now, again, I don't need something drastically romantic every day to make love. Some times just the memory of recent romantic ventures is enough to rev my engine. And, sometimes it's just how he kisses me(and he is a really, really good kisser). But for me it is all is connected.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

my ex's first wife said she hated when he'd do nice,romantic things bc then she felt obligated to have sex with him.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I don't disagree that sex is an important part of marriage, and that both spouses should realize that. What I don't like, is the word "entitled." Because that just turns sex into an obligation. Am I "entitled" to affection and love in my marriage? Most would probably argue that I am. But I don't want affection because it is "my right" or because I am "entitled" to it. I want it because it's freely given to me. I want it because my spouse gives it to me because it comes from his heart, his deepest core.
> 
> In marriage, any time you get into "entitlement" you are steering off course. Would you really want "entitled" sex any way? If you threaten your spouse, you might get more sex--at least for a while. They might offer fake enthusiasm and give you obligatory sex. But it can't last, and it's not authentic.


You are talking apples and oranges, and getting caught up in semantics.

You have a problem with the word "entitled". You make that synonymous with "obligations". Those words are not the same thing, at least from my perspective.

Children are "entitled" to food, clothing, shelter, and affection from their parents. The very fact that they were created, and brought into this world, "entitles" them to these basic necessities. It does not suggest that a parent is begrudgingly giving them that which they are "entitled" to have, these basic rights as children. Are there parents who look at their children as mere obligations, who begrudgingly take care of them? Sure, of course. However that doesn't change the fact that all children are "entitled" to these basic rights from their parents or guardians. 

Sex within the confines of a marriage is no different than that. My wife IS "entitled" to sex from me. Because I married into a SEXUAL union as well as a psychological/emotional/financial/spiritual union. Her being "entitled" to have sex is absolutely no different than her being "entitled" to love, affection, and caring. I don't make love to my wife because I am obligated, but regardless of whether I feel obligated or not, by the very fact that she is my WIFE she is "entitled" to sexual gratification. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. She is both "entitled" to sex AND I desire to give her sex, not out of obligation, or her sense of entitlement, but because I want to. 

If such a time comes that I begin chronically refusing her right to be sexually satisfied, and have no plans to change this course, she has ever right to divorce my behind and find someone else who is willing to fulfill the vows and give to her what she has the RIGHT to have.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> As a former LD woman,I have to admit the more my ex chased me for sex the more repulsed I became by him.On the outside we appeared sexually satiated and happy.On the inside,it was never enough for him.We did it a few times a week and when we weren't doing it he was panting after me like a rabid dog begging me for something anything...a hj,a bj,baby just touch it at least...UGH. I wanted to throw up watching him do that.
> 
> I'll never chase anyone like that for sex even though I consider myself HD these days and he shouldn't have done it either.
> 
> ...


Makes total sense to me! 

What caused your LD to become HD?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> If you're a decent spouse, YES you absolutely are entitled to sex. Absolutely. If one of the basic rights of marriage isn't the expectation of having one's sexual needs filled, then why get married? Why not just stay friends, or platonic roommates?


I definitely agree with this. Someone mentioned being entitled to affection...um, yeah, spouses are entitled to affection. Spouses are also entitled to trust, respect, honesty, friendship....that doesn't mean trust or respect is demanded in the relationship, or that a spouse has the right to threaten the other if one of these things isn't being met. It's just a statement: in marriage spouses are entitled to sex with each other.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

southern wife said:


> Makes total sense to me!
> 
> What caused your LD to become HD?


not being depressed anymore,confidence,learning to feel beautiful,learning how to be on my own and take care of myself...I truly blossomed when i got to be on my own and independent.I became insatiable sexually and remain that way to this day. I often wonder if there are more women like me out there,truly depressed bc they feel worthless at not being independent and always depending on their man for help.The empowerment of being on my own gave me the confidence to embrace the sexy stuff.

My current SO helped me a lot with my drive too.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Interesting.
> 
> As a woman, I can say that my thinking is entirely different. Not better, just different. For me, the romantic gestures he does absolutely have to do with sex. I mean, to me it makes sense...when my husband does those things for me, as big or as small as they may be, it speaks to my heart...it makes me want to be closer to him. I feel safe, loved, cherished...and for me, those things are what speak to my...well, you know.
> 
> ...



This makes sense to me. It's not how my marriage operates, but it makes sense to me.

For us the actual sex act is very spiritually gratifying, as well as sexually and emotionally. The sex act in and of itself is a powerful short hand for deep connection. We crave that connection, that bonding, that GOOD sex, because that in and of itself just seals us in a really wonderful way. Sex isn't a byproduct of the gesture, it is the gesture in and of itself.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> You are talking apples and oranges, and getting caught up in semantics.
> 
> You have a problem with the word "entitled". You make that synonymous with "obligations". Those words are not the same thing, at least from my perspective.
> 
> ...


Now YOU are comparing apples to oranges when you compare spouses with dependent children and sex with food, clothing, and shelter. I don't want to get into a debate as to whether sex is as essential to survival as food. It might be essential to your marriage's survival. But you won't die without sex. Apples to oranges.

I really don't disagree with most of what you are saying. We all have rights as individuals, and we all have obligations (sex is just on of the many obligations) to our spouses. I don't disagree there. What I was trying to say is that if your spouse senses that you have an attitude of entitlement toward sex, it is not likely to improve his/her attitude to enthusiastically make love to you. Groveling and begging won't work. Neither will an ultimatum (at least long term).


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> not being depressed anymore,confidence,learning to feel beautiful,learning how to be on my own and take care of myself...I truly blossomed when i got to be on my own and independent.I became insatiable sexually and remain that way to this day. I often wonder if there are more women like me out there,truly depressed bc they feel worthless at not being independent and always depending on their man for help.The empowerment of being on my own gave me the confidence to embrace the sexy stuff.
> 
> My current SO helped me a lot with my drive too.


Awesome! :smthumbup:


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Just be sure you're willing to have your bluff called.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I really don't disagree with most of what you are saying. We all have rights as individuals, and we all have obligations (sex is just on of the many obligations) to our spouses. I don't disagree there. What I was trying to say is that if your spouse senses that you have an attitude of entitlement toward sex, it is not likely to improve his/her attitude to enthusiastically make love to you. Groveling and begging won't work. Neither will an ultimatum (at least long term).


And my "apples and oranges" comparison rose because you began attributing notions to the OP that were never there. I didn't speak once about "obligation" or an "attitude of entitlement"; one an be entitled to have a right without walking around with an "attitude of entitlement".

I also don't believe in needing to work to "improve" my wife's "enthusiasm to make love", which is the point of my thread. If you're working to "get" a spouse to make love to you, it's all wrong. No decent spouse, who loves their SO, should EVER have to find ways to strategize how to get them to make love to you.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> This makes sense to me. It's not how my marriage operates, but it makes sense to me.
> 
> For us the actual sex act is very spiritually gratifying, as well as sexually and emotionally. The sex act in and of itself is a powerful short hand for deep connection. We crave that connection, that bonding, that GOOD sex, because that in and of itself just seals us in a really wonderful way. Sex isn't a byproduct of the gesture, it is the gesture in and of itself.


See, we're like this in a way too. We both need emotional satisfaction outside of sex, but we also get a tremendous amount of spiritual/emotional/physical satisfaction through sex too. The times when our marriage has been at its worst has been when we were not engaging in sexual intimacy, so I guess my marriage has it both ways. lol.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm sorry, but it just needs to be said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

To stop the fighting here, I think what the OP is implying is not that you shouldn't work for sex, but rather you shouldn't CONSCIOUSLY work for sex.

All the positive things we do for our spouses is for a variety of reasons. We all do things for a reason, everything in our life is for a reason from sleeping, eating and breathing to what TV show we watch. The same goes with our spouses. We do things for them for whatever reason, including sex, approval, respect, admiration, to make them feel good, etc. Often the good actions we do for our spouse are to gain all of the above mentioned, and more, in one fell swoop.

That said, we do it for these reasons without actually thinking about it being for those reasons. In a good marriage anyways. When Jaquen buys his wife flowers for example, it isn't for an specific reason CONCIOUSLY, but there is a reason and that reason is often a subconcious need to follow up on some of the above mentioned benefits, sex being one of them. 

If you are concsiously trying to buy flowers, hoping it will translate to sex later, that is something you shouldn't do. If you want to trade something (money, gifts, chores, etc.) for sex, get a hooker.

A good marriage is based on a mutal effort to fulfill each others needs, including sex, without a prompting. I believe that is what Jaquen is getting at.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My love language is 'What's on God's grey are you yammering about and why the f^ck is it my problem? Do I look like Electrolocles the Greek god of small appliances? I showed you how to swap the batteries about 9 dozen times. Do it, don't do it, I don't f^cking care.'


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Okay, my love language is "acts of service." So is it then my RIGHT (as you say) to have my husband lovingly do the dishes, change my baby's poopy diaper, and do other tasks on a regular basis? Am I entitled to that?


If it's something you went into the marriage expecting to be there, I would say yes. You are entitled to that. No one goes into a marriage expecting to be denied sexually. Everyone understands(unless there is a physical or mental condition that doesn't allow sex) that sex is expected after marriage. If love languages were discussed before marriage and you fully expected him to do the dishes, help with diapers and do other tasks, then yeah, you're entitled to that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Okay, my love language is "acts of service." So is it then my RIGHT (as you say) to have my husband lovingly do the dishes, change my baby's poopy diaper, and do other tasks on a regular basis? Am I entitled to that?


I think every spouse is definitely entitled to have their partner pull their own weight and do their fair share of the work.

People speak of sex as a reasonable expectation and 'right' in marriage because of the vow of exclusivity that is generally a precondition of marriage.

If for example, we had to take a solemn vow to only ever eat food that our spouse provided and this was a precondition of marriage to them, we would be in a real pickle if they decided farther down the road that they didn't need to feed us.

Sex and food are obviously not perfectly comparable, but we do make a similar vow in regard to sex.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Just be sure you're willing to have your bluff called.


Dont negotiate in a hostage situation!! 









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camihuml (Jul 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm sorry, but it just needs to be said.
> 
> There are so many absolutely wonderful people on this forum. People who love their husbands and wives, people who work to please them, and validate them as human beings.
> 
> ...


Jaquen, Can you please call my SO at (555)-222-1234 and share this with him?! lol.
Oh, if only life were this simple....


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I think every spouse is definitely entitled to have their partner pull their own weight and do their fair share of the work.
> 
> People speak of sex as a reasonable expectation and 'right' in marriage because of the vow of exclusivity that is generally a precondition of marriage.
> 
> ...


I do not think sex should be put on a higher pedestal of "marital rights." Who is to say that sex is a greater need than affection or acts of service? You do take a vow of sexual exclusivity when you marry, but you also take a vow to get your needs for affection met by your spouse as well. For some wives (and husbands) sex is not their greatest need. 

And I think that most modern women and moms enter into marriage with the expectation (whether voiced or not) that their husbands will share a responsibility with the babies that they bear and the unending housework.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Okay, my love language is "acts of service." So is it then my RIGHT (as you say) to have my husband lovingly do the dishes, change my baby's poopy diaper, and do other tasks on a regular basis? Am I entitled to that?


Of course sharing in duties is a RIGHT in a marriage. But what does this even have to do with my thread, especially when the OP clearly talks about people who are already validating their spouses in non-sexual ways?

You are free to make a thread about how you believe marriage entitles you to have dishes washed, diapers changed, and other tasks on a regular basis. Meanwhile this thread is about SEX on a the SEX forum.



momtwo4 said:


> I do not think sex should be put on a higher pedestal of "marital rights." Who is to say that sex is a greater need than affection or acts of service? You do take a vow of sexual exclusivity when you marry, but you also take a vow to get your needs for affection met by your spouse as well. For some wives (and husbands) sex is not their greatest need.
> 
> And I think that most modern women and moms enter into marriage with the expectation (whether voiced or not) that their husbands will share a responsibility with the babies that they bear and the unending housework.


Nobody said sex was on a "higher pedestal". People are talking about sex because, again, this is a SEX thread. The topic of this thread is about SEX. You continue to try and debate a point that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread. Clearly you have some strong feelings about service acts not being met, and again perhaps you should start your own thread to voice those concerns.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Of course sharing in duties is a RIGHT in a marriage. But what does this even have to do with my thread, especially when the OP clearly talks about people who are already validating their spouses in non-sexual ways?
> 
> You are free to make a thread about how you believe marriage entitles you to have dishes washed, diapers changed, and other tasks on a regular basis. Meanwhile this thread is about SEX on a the SEX forum.


I don't think I'm veering so far off topic as you so emphatically proclaim, Jaquen. Your OP was about how sex is a basic RIGHT that you are entitled to in marriage. In my response, I was attempting to illustrate how this statement can basically lead to a tit-for-tat marriage. 

For the record, I do not think that it is my RIGHT as a wife to expect my husband to do chores around the house. Nor is it his RIGHT that I have regular sex with him. However, I can tell that both things DO happen on a regular basis. Why? Because we love each other and we truly want to make the other person happy. He wants to lighten my load at home, and I to give him sexual gratification. 

You say that I am getting all caught up in "semantics." Well, this is an online environment where words are all we have. I do believe semantics are important--very important. We don't think in terms of "rights" and "entitlements" in our marriage. We try to think in terms of--how can I make the one I love happy?

I don't think you give wrong advice in advising people to "stop begging" for sex. I agree that it doesn't work. But if people start thinking of sex as a "right" in marriage, that is not going to help anything either.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> O
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody said sex was on a "higher pedestal". People are talking about sex because, again, this is a SEX thread. The topic of this thread is about SEX. You continue to try and debate a point that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread. Clearly you have some strong feelings about service acts not being met, and again perhaps you should start your own thread to voice those concerns.


Thank you for reminding me of that Jaquen. I do fully understand that I can start another thread.  I can see that you have strong feelings about this topic as well. Honestly, I am not meaning to hijack your thread. I do not mean any offense or to make you angry or frustrated. I was just sharing my thoughts on sex as "RIGHT" in marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I was not angry, not at all. Just...baffled.

And it's wonderful that you and your husband have needs met. But I disagree with you that it's not helpful for people to feel they are entitled to sex.

Do you so the unbelievable number of people on this board who are jumping through hoops, begging, screaming, crying, and bargaining for sex? A lot of people on this board have not come to the understanding that they are, indeed, entitled to a sexual relationship with their spouse. IMO too many people around here are acting like sex is a bargaining chip, or a rare gift, or something to be worked extra hard to achieve solely as a "reward".

Maybe if some of these people realized that they DESERVE sex, and that it's their spouses duty to provide that sex to them, just as it is their duty to love, cherish, and honor, than maybe they'd get off the merry go round of frustration, pain, and anger, and start either putting their foot down and changing things, or ponying up to leave.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I do not think sex should be put on a higher pedestal of "marital rights." Who is to say that sex is a greater need than affection or acts of service?


Well people are definitely as different as snowflakes and individual perceptions may vary.

Regardless, nothing else in marriage has quite the same legal and moral considerations attached to it as sex.

If a couple has the means, they can hire a nanny to diaper their child(ren) or a maid to do the dishes and other tasks. It's expensive, but there is nothing inherently wrong with it legally and morally. 

Sex, in contrast is directly tied to the validity of the marriage covenant itself. Sex with our spouse consummates that covenant and sex with anyone else at any time breaches it. Hiring someone to fill that need is not only immoral, it is very much illegal as well.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to be callous. Nobody likes to feel used and nobody likes to think that their spouse only wants them for their own selfish pleasure. I get that. 

But when we talk about sex in marriage, we're talking about something unique and on a different ethical plane entirely.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"But if people start thinking of sex as a "right" in marriage, that is not going to help anything either. "

This is wrong. 

A man gets married to the woman that he fell in love with which means he wants to have sex with her all the time. 

The REASON a man gets married is to have guaranteed all the sex he wants with that woman. 

My DH announced this to me on Day #1 of our Honeymoon (a simple point of conversation and happy talk as he entered me from behind in our hotel room overlooking the Reuss River in Luzern, Switzerland) and I have NEVER forgotten it. 

And yes, I agreed with him then and I agree with him now. 

If you married a man, you made a contract to have sex with him when he wants it the way he wants it (within reason; consenting adults and all that; values, norms, you know what I mean.) 

If you now are not acknowledging his right to sex in marriage then you are in the wrong. and I bet you know it and are waiting for him to call you on it.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I think people are entitled to have a spouse who is sexually attracted to them. 
I'd rather be single than be with someone who doesn't desire me. 

I think this dovetails with what jaq is saying. You shouldn't have to *work* for your spouse to be attracted to you anymore than you should have to work for your spouse to enjoy your company, or like talking to you, etc.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I don't believe in this. I do romantic things for my wife because I love her, and I want to express that to her. I have never, not even once, bought her a gift, or done something for her, with the expectation that things "might" heat up in the bedroom. I don't even have a language for that.
> 
> I don't believe in being constantly turned down, nor does my wife. Sure both of us are comfortable saying no, but the yeses far out way the noes. And we have sex because we enjoying making love to one another, connecting for the sake of sexual gratification, and emotional/spiritual release. Neither one of us acts a certain way outside the bedroom with the expectation that this "might" get us laid. There is no such thing as "things just might" in my marriage. The language is "things almost always will".


I'm a woman & I agree with you.
Sex is essential to a marriage, if you're not that into it, you probably shouldn't bother getting married, you can just have a bunch of "really" good friends instead. 

I've seen too many woman use sex as game or like a carrot dangling in front of their husbands.
I married my husband because I wanted to spend the rest of my life with the sexiest, most irrestible MAN I had ever met, whom I still can't wait to jump his bones every time I can.
Sex is absolutely amazing, it makes you feel so good, why wouldn't somone want to feel like that all the time?
Excluding any physiology or physical reason barring having sex, I can't understand the laissez faire attitude so many people have regarding their married sex life.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

I think part of what is ignored here is - what do the two parties consider "essential" to life. breathing air. eating food. drinking water. and for men: sex. the problem is he can breathe and eat and drink on his own but he NEEDS a woman for sex. 

he marries in expectation that now "he is complete" and can get the sex he needs in addition to the air, food and water. 

but then the wife withholds sex. 

this is where the marriage contract gets broken. doesn't matter the reasons the reasoning or the rationale. he needs sex and she has the power to withhold it. it's like if he lived in an iron lung and she had the plug in her hand and could remove it any time. would she? 

why is it ok when its sex?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I must be easy! I don't need gifts to have crazy hot sex with my H. Sex, to us, is like a good night kiss. It's just something we do and it's fun! Whether he brings gifts or not does not matter.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> "But if people start thinking of sex as a "right" in marriage, that is not going to help anything either. "
> 
> This is wrong.
> 
> ...


Wow. I hope there are other reasons that a man marries a woman. And no, personally, I don't feel that I am in the wrong for not viewing sex as a marital right. Where in the contract does it state "I will have sex with you whenever you want?" It is subject to interpretation.

I DO think that sex is important and vital to a healthy marriage. At the same time, I think that there are other things that are just as important. Sex is not everyone's love language.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> I think part of what is ignored here is - what do the two parties consider "essential" to life. breathing air. eating food. drinking water. and for men: sex. the problem is he can breathe and eat and drink on his own but he NEEDS a woman for sex.
> 
> he marries in expectation that now "he is complete" and can get the sex he needs in addition to the air, food and water.
> 
> ...


This really bothers me. Why do so many people compare sex to "water" and "air." I get that sex is very important. I believe that it is very important. But this isn't really an equal or fair comparison. You will not die if you do not have sex. Your marriage might. But you will not physically die.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Opinions are like ... Everyone's got one. Here's mine. I think it is fun to set up a romantic evening for sex. I also think it is fun to just get down and dirty. 
I think it is an expression of love to buy gifts and do things which are part of living with a spouse. None of us have to. It is a choice we make. 
I think the things I have worked for have been more satisfying than the things which were just expected. 
I think no two people are alike. 
I think we have to work some at being happy with each other. Just step back and read this thread and you will see how different we all are. Some similar but, none the same.
I think anyone who is worth having sex with is worth a little effort to please.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well people are definitely as different as snowflakes and individual perceptions may vary.
> 
> Regardless, nothing else in marriage has quite the same legal and moral considerations attached to it as sex.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying here. I agree that sex is something that only the two of you as a married couple should share. In that sense, it is different than other marital "obligations." However, I do disagree that it is somehow more of a "right" and "obligation" than other marital duties.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Wow. I hope there are other reasons that a man marries a woman.


Of course there are other reasons.

But surely you do know that readily available, consistent, regular sex is one of the main reasons a lot of men (and some women) marry, right?


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> This really bothers me. Why do so many people compare sex to "water" and "air." I get that sex is very important. I believe that it is very important. But this isn't really an equal or fair comparison. You will not die if you do not have sex. Your marriage might. But you will not physically die.


Since you can't grasp why people compare sex to air & water, maybe you really don't understand how important sex is.
Why do people get married & promise to forsake all others?
It sure isn't to sit around watching TV, doing dishes, taking the trash out or doing laundry.
It's to be physically intimate with another person, on a level that ensures the health of their marriage & bonds the two together.
It's not the orgasm, because you don't even need another person for that, no it's the connection you have/feel with your spouse when you have sex, NOTHING else can come close to that connection regarding the health & welfare of your marriage.
When there are problems in the marriage that were not sexually caused, what's the first thing to go?
Sex. 
Think about how many people complain about the issues in their marriages, with the bad sex/lack of sex being the major cause of those issues & not because of a lack of services/gifts/ whatever other 5 Love Languages you want to provide.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Of course there are other reasons.
> 
> But surely you do know that readily available, consistent, regular sex is one of the main reasons a lot of men (and some women) marry, right?


I do know that. And I respect that. AND I certainly appreciate that my husband views sex as an act of love to me, rather than something he is entitled to.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I do know that. And I respect that. AND I certainly appreciate that my husband views sex as an act of love to me, rather than something he is entitled to.


So if you started refusing your husband, for whatever reason, and he finally said to you that he's fed up, and believes he's entitled to sex in a marriage, you'd be offended?

And what of you? If your husband's sexual affections dried up, and your sex life came to a dead halt, you wouldn't feel that your husband was violating a vow, impeding on your right to enjoy the fruits of monogamy?


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I do know that. And I respect that. AND I certainly appreciate that my husband views sex as an act of love to me, rather than something he is entitled to.


And he is entitled to love if he complies with loving you... 

You're trying to find reasons to refute the OP that, no offense, aren't working.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Since you can't grasp why people compare sex to air & water, maybe you really don't understand how important sex is.
> Why do people get married & promise to forsake all others?
> It sure isn't to sit around watching TV, doing dishes, taking the trash out or doing laundry.
> It's to be physically intimate with another person, on a level that ensures the health of their marriage & bonds the two together.
> ...


You're probably right that I don't fully comprehend how important sex is. I can't refute that. I do agree that it brings us closer and helps bond us as a couple. And I know that the physical release and emotional connection is very important to my husband. I love him, and I want him to give him everything he needs as a man. 

At the same time, I also see other things besides sex that bring us close as well. And I don't think I can honestly say that I believe sex is the most important aspect of a relationship as you seem to imply.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> And he is entitled to love if he complies with loving you...
> 
> You're trying to find reasons to refute the OP that, no offense, aren't working.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No offense taken.  I'm not trying to "win" an argument here or even refute the OP. I appreciate many of the points the OP made! I'm simply sharing my perspective on this. It is interesting because my husband and I have never discussed "rights" or "entitlements" in marriage.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> So if you started refusing your husband, for whatever reason, and he finally said to you that he's fed up, and believes he's entitled to sex in a marriage, you'd be offended?
> 
> And what of you? If your husband's sexual affections dried up, and your sex life came to a dead halt, you wouldn't feel that your husband was violating a vow, impeding on your right to enjoy the fruits of monogamy?


Honestly, I probably would be offended. My husband knows me well, and if I started to turn him down, there would probably be a big reason why that is happening. Hopefully he could be patient with me and we could work to solve the problem together.

If my husband started turning me down, I would definitely be hurt. But I don't think I would start confronting him with "it's my right to have sex in marriage." Instead, I would probably stop initiating for a while and work on "ME." There has to be some reason why the sex has dried up. It doesn't just dry up for NO reason.


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## La Rose Noire (Jun 20, 2012)

Neither my man or myself have to work for sex. We're both HD, so it's very easy for either of us to get in the mood. He doesn't have to romance me all day. I want it as much as he does. 

I couldn't imagine working for sex. That would be very irritating. 

Just gimme!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Honestly, I probably would be offended. My husband knows me well, and if I started to turn him down, there would probably be a big reason why that is happening. Hopefully he could be patient with me and we could work to solve the problem together.
> 
> If my husband started turning me down, I would definitely be hurt. But I don't think I would start confronting him with "it's my right to have sex in marriage." Instead, I would probably stop initiating for a while and work on "ME." There has to be some reason why the sex has dried up. It doesn't just dry up for NO reason.


I agree, if the sex is drying up, there is a core reason, or reasons, that need to be explored. I do not believe the answer is to run immediately to an angry rant about how you're entitled to sex and you better get it now! 

However the very reason that it's worth exploring is because sex is an inalienable right in a marriage. Otherwise it would simply be something optional that your spouse really doesn't have to address or try and correct. 

If sex is NOT a "right" of marriage (and according to the traditional vows it is), then a spouse could stop having sex, and then just tell you to mind your own business if they chose not to pick it back up.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Jaqueen, men have a compartment for sex, a compartment for chores and a compartment for doing nice things for our spouse... women have a purse that everything goes into.

Men's Brain vs Women brain - YouTube


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> Jaqueen, men have a compartment for sex, a compartment for chores and a compartment for doing nice things for our spouse... women have a purse that everything goes into.
> 
> Men's Brain vs Women brain - YouTube


:rofl:

Well thankfully that's not how my marriage works at all.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I think this thread is misleading.

The problems are men and women marry, often believing that sex and affection will just appear and they don't have to do anything for it to happen. 

Many men bend of backwards do everything they can, take on more then their fair share and have to beg for sex. This also happens to women. This is unfair. They don't have the right boundaries and are being doormats and that's not attractive. Never beg for sex.

Many women marry men and do everything they can, take on more then their fair share (women do this more often, statistically speaking) and have to beg for time, affection and companionship, and intimacy. This also happens to men. They also don't have the right boundaries and are being doormats, also not attractive. never beg for time affection and intimacy.

Set good boundaries, put in your fair share, work on the dynamics and what turns you both on. You should both care about that. Don't get someone to commit, then be unwilling to flirt, or talk to them, or put the time and effort in for intimacy or sex. That would be selfish. But don't be a doormat either. there has to be a good balance.

As a woman I am willing to do a lot for my spouse, but I also want him to be willing to put just as much effort into what is important to me. Not pretend he is and then stop.

Luckily I have a fantastic man, and am horny almost all of the time.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

jaquen said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Well thankfully that's not how my marriage works at all.


oh really now ?



> Sex never crosses my mind when I do things for my wife.


in other words your sex compartment is not touching your nice things for your W compartment.

then from SW (a woman):


> If he's loving to her outside of the bedroom, touches her, compliments her.........then things just might heat up IN the bedroom.


 ie all things are connected in her mind.

You said in your first post:


> ...The existence of marriage is partially about eliminating the need to search for, and work constantly at, finding a suitable lover. If you need to work at it, then don't get married.
> 
> Marriage entitles you to regular, fulfilling sex with your husband or wife. That is a basic RIGHT of marriage, not a privilege, and not a favor...


So how is that working out for you then, if your marriage is not not like what I suggested? If you are not perfectly satisfied with the quality and quantity of sex you are getting in your marriage maybe open your mind up to the possibility that your W's brain does not work like yours.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> oh really now ?
> 
> So how is that working out for you then, if your marriage is not not like what I suggested? If you are not perfectly satisfied with the quality and quantity of sex you are getting in your marriage maybe open your mind up to the possibility that your W's brain does not work like yours.


What are you talking about, exactly? I have sex in my marriage nearly when I want it, the quality, and quantity, are satisfying and amazing.

And I don't EVER have to "work" for sex. Never. I get just as much sex if I'm employed and have money to spend, or in between jobs or contracts and have no money to spend.

So yes, it's working out _beautifully_ for me. And her. Since we both have the exactly same philosophy surrounding sex.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I must be easy! I don't need gifts to have crazy hot sex with my H. Sex, to us, is like a good night kiss. It's just something we do and it's fun! Whether he brings gifts or not does not matter.


For clarification, I don't think women who have other emotional needs outside of sex are difficult because they have those needs. They're just different than others who don't need romance. Neither is wrong, in my opinion. For myself, sex is an essential part of the romantic aspects of our relationship. Seduction, attraction, flirtation and the art of being pursued by my husband are indescribably romantic and I love it. My husband is a total player, but he's faithful and only has eyes for me so it's all good.  He knows how to get me going. That said, I do need other aspects of romance. Not necessarily for sex, but for the other facets of emotional gratification.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> This really bothers me. Why do so many people compare sex to "water" and "air." I get that sex is very important. I believe that it is very important. But this isn't really an equal or fair comparison. You will not die if you do not have sex. Your marriage might. But you will not physically die.


I think this is kind of the point. If we don't drink water or eat food, we physically die. If there isn't sex in a relationship where both spouses are healthy, the marriage will die. I see the comparison just fine...maybe I'm over-simplifying things.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> For clarification, I don't think women who have other emotional needs outside of sex are difficult because they have those needs. They're just different than others who don't need romance. Neither is wrong, in my opinion. For myself, sex is an essential part of the romantic aspects of our relationship. Seduction, attraction, flirtation and the art of being pursued by my husband are indescribably romantic and I love it. My husband is a total player, but he's faithful and only has eyes for me so it's all good.  He knows how to get me going. That said, I do need other aspects of romance. Not necessarily for sex, but for the other facets of emotional gratification.


Very well written.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Jaquen, I am glad then it is working for you... if you both have the same philosophy that is a big advantage, for those that don't have the same philosophy, like most heterosexual couples, I thing what it important is not having the same philosophy, rather they simply "click", that the differences in the sexes mesh into something that works. Chemistry/Compatibility, most people have a mix of each, I'd think your marriage must have a LOT of both (or atleast compatibility from what you are saying).

And Created2Write, it is nice to see your comments on here again, haven't seen them for ages!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lon said:


> Jaquen, I am glad then it is working for you... if you both have the same philosophy that is a big advantage, for those that don't have the same philosophy, like most heterosexual couples, I thing what it important is not having the same philosophy, rather they simply "click", that the differences in the sexes mesh into something that works. Chemistry/Compatibility, most people have a mix of each, I'd think your marriage must have a LOT of both (or atleast compatibility from what you are saying).
> 
> And Created2Write, it is nice to see your comments on here again, haven't seen them for ages!


Thanks Lon! It's definitely been a while. It's good to be back.


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## Loves2hard (Jun 27, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> To stop the fighting here, I think what the OP is implying is not that you shouldn't work for sex, but rather you shouldn't CONSCIOUSLY work for sex.
> 
> All the positive things we do for our spouses is for a variety of reasons. We all do things for a reason, everything in our life is for a reason from sleeping, eating and breathing to what TV show we watch. The same goes with our spouses. We do things for them for whatever reason, including sex, approval, respect, admiration, to make them feel good, etc. Often the good actions we do for our spouse are to gain all of the above mentioned, and more, in one fell swoop.
> 
> ...



KIngsFan I just love how you break it down, jaquen just comes off very demanding and intimidating. He might be a teddy bear and all to his wife. But I get the impression that God forbid he would love to the ability to have sex he would want his wife to leave him since he couldnt have sex or vice versa.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow! Sex is not a marital right?! Holy crap! I wouldn't have signed the certificate if I thought sex would be missing from my marriage. 

Sex is definitely a marital right...at least in this marriage. He has a right to have sex, just as I have a right to have sex...together. NOT an obligation, just something we like to do. We are nice to each other because we actually like each other. I help out my friends, doesn't mean I want to get into their pants. I help out my H because I like him. The sex is just a nice part of our lives.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

jaquen said:


> What are you talking about, exactly? I have sex in my marriage nearly when I want it, the quality, and quantity, are satisfying and amazing.
> 
> And I don't EVER have to "work" for sex. Never. I get just as much sex if I'm employed and have money to spend, or in between jobs or contracts and have no money to spend.
> 
> So yes, it's working out _beautifully_ for me. And her. Since we both have the exactly same philosophy surrounding sex.


Yea, our sex life is somewhat like this. We don't tie it into the crap going on in our lives.

But I also don't have a husband that treats me like poop. He's not a slob, he doesn't complain and betch about my cooking/housework. He helps with the kids and does his share of chores around here without my asking. So, I don't know how women feel who have husbands that don't do anything, but then want sex like it's another chore for her to do.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> This really bothers me. Why do so many people compare sex to "water" and "air."  I get that sex is very important. I believe that it is very important. But this isn't really an equal or fair comparison. You will not die if you do not have sex. Your marriage might. But you will not physically die.


Suppose conversation was an important need for you. Suppose then your spouse said to you "Why do you have to talk to me today...we talked two weeks ago.. how about we talk two weeks from now? It's not like you're going to die if you don't talk to me today." 

How would that make you feel? For many men and women, sex is just as important as conversation or domestic support or whatever other need you have.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, imo, people who don't see the need for sex, aren't having sex/don't want sex/or don't like sex. They don't understand.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Wow! Sex is not a marital right?! Holy crap! I wouldn't have signed the certificate if I thought sex would be missing from my marriage.
> 
> Sex is definitely a marital right...at least in this marriage. He has a right to have sex, just as I have a right to have sex...together. NOT an obligation, just something we like to do. We are nice to each other because we actually like each other. I help out my friends, doesn't mean I want to get into their pants. I help out my H because I like him. The sex is just a nice part of our lives.


:iagree:


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> This really bothers me. Why do so many people compare sex to "water" and "air." I get that sex is very important. I believe that it is very important. But this isn't really an equal or fair comparison. You will not die if you do not have sex. Your marriage might. But you will not physically die.


In the book, _Alexander Dolgun's story: An American In The Gulag_, the author describes an interrogation technique that is still used today because it leaves no physical marks.

The subject is put into solitary confinement for months and months and deprived of all human contact. Then they are transferred to a cell with another human being. 

I can't remember the exact Russian term for what happens, but it roughly translates to, 'Verbal diarrhea'

The need to communicate with another human being has built up to the point where all inhibitions are gone and they tell their cellmate everything. In this case, the cellmate is an informer who promptly relays that information.

Humans have other needs besides water and air. Interrogation techniques like this would not work otherwise. If you ignore that, you do so at the peril of your marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> Jaquen, I am glad then it is working for you... if you both have the same philosophy that is a big advantage, for those that don't have the same philosophy, like most heterosexual couples, I thing what it important is not having the same philosophy, rather they simply "click", that the differences in the sexes mesh into something that works. Chemistry/Compatibility, most people have a mix of each, I'd think your marriage must have a LOT of both (or atleast compatibility from what you are saying)


We do have pretty incredible chemistry. I would say we have stronger chemistry than innate compatibility. We are very different people in the majority of ways. Where we're aided greatly is in our ability to let a lot of things go, and give each other a ton of breathing room. We are partnered, yes, but we have a lot of independence and try damn hard not to sweat the many, many differences we have.

Spirituality is also our strongest binding force. 

Thank you for your well wishes! 



curious0 said:


> But I get the impression that God forbid he would love to the ability to have sex he would want his wife to leave him since he couldnt have sex or vice versa.


My wife and I have been together for 12 years this August the 12th, and we waited until marriage to have sex. We didn't even have a sexual relationship for many, many years. We practiced LONG term celibacy, spent LONG periods of that time in a long distance relationship, and I never cheated, nor did she. We stayed madly in love, had a very romantic relationship, and built something strong, beautiful, and blessed _without the aide of sex_. And I am talking two people who knew they had great chemistry, were not virgins, have higher sex drives, and who burned for one another. Of the many couples we knew, we were the only ones who waited.

So there goes that assumption. :rofl:


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

jaquen said:


> What are you talking about, exactly? I have sex in my marriage nearly when I want it, the quality, and quantity, are satisfying and amazing.
> 
> And I don't EVER have to "work" for sex. Never. I get just as much sex if I'm employed and have money to spend, or in between jobs or contracts and have no money to spend.
> 
> So yes, it's working out _beautifully_ for me. And her. Since we both have the exactly same philosophy surrounding sex.


I suspect if you got lazy and stopped all the loving gestures you make toward your wife on a daily basis, you would be getting a lot less sex because your wife would feel a lot less connected to you outside the bedroom, and would feel a lot less interested in connecting in the bedroom.

Just because you don't call it work (because you are making those loving gestures voluntarily because you feel loving toward her, not to "get sex"), doesn't mean you aren't working at keeping your relationship strong outside the bedroom.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

But is it work? It's just common decency to treat people well...especially people that you love. It's no more work than it is 'work' for me to cook for my family, brush my hair, or take a shower. It's just what you do :scratchhead:. No?

"Work" for me is doing things I don't want to do, but have to do anyway. That's work. Being nice to my spouse isn't work. It just is.


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## Loves2hard (Jun 27, 2012)

My wife and I have been together for 12 years this August the 12th, and we waited until marriage to have sex. We didn't even have a sexual relationship for many, many years. We practiced LONG term celibacy, spent LONG periods of that time in a long distance relationship, and I never cheated, nor did she. We stayed madly in love, had a very romantic relationship, and built something strong, beautiful, and blessed _without the aide of sex_. And I am talking two people who knew they had great chemistry, were not virgins, have higher sex drives, and who burned for one another. Of the many couples we knew, we were the only ones who waited.

So there goes that assumption. :rofl:[/QUOTE]

How is it an assumption when you have said in this post as well as mine that marriage without sex, or having to work to have sex is a no go and a exit strategy is warrant. so rofl all you want. I am glad you wait until marriage so you had a solid foundation good for you ! :smthumbup:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> I suspect if you got lazy and stopped all the loving gestures you make toward your wife on a daily basis, you would be getting a lot less sex because your wife would feel a lot less connected to you outside the bedroom, and would feel a lot less interested in connecting in the bedroom.


And you would be wrong. I have gotten lazy from time to time. I am not perfect. Neither is she. I still get laid. Why? Because my wife is a sexual being who likewise enjoys sex. If she cuts me off at the knees, she cuts herself off. That would be sexual suicide. Perhaps some women are comfortable with this, but my woman isn't.



norajane said:


> Just because you don't call it work (because you are making those loving gestures voluntarily because you feel loving toward her, not to "get sex"), doesn't mean you aren't working at keeping your relationship strong outside the bedroom.


Of course I work at keeping my relationship strong. That has NOTHING to do with the OP however.

But guess what? When I'm not perfect, I get laid.

When I don't do my chores, I get laid.

If I don't have any money in my pocket, I get laid.

If we've had a fight, are upset with one another, or are having a rough patch, we still sleep together. 

We try not to let outside influence affect our love making, as much as possible. We ebb, and we flow, but we never go weeks without sex no matter what's happening in our lives. Sex can be a wonderful short hand for helping solve problems. It is NOT a reward for us.

For some bizarre reason that seems to be a foreign concept for a lot of people on this board.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Sex really does solve issues! Usually our issues arise because one or both of us isn't feeling close to the other. Sex solves this issue like no other remedy can.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

curious0 said:


> How is it an assumption when you have said in this post as well as mine that marriage without sex, or having to work to have sex is a no go and a exit strategy is warrant. so rofl all you want. I am glad you wait until marriage so you had a solid foundation good for you ! :smthumbup:



Did you miss this part of the post:

"_*Baring any deep physiological or psychological issues...* if your partner has decided to refuse you sex, and no matter what you do to express how much that hurts you they still won't budge, it's time to put that foot down and tell them that they need to engage with you, or it's time to discuss exit strategies._"

To suggest that I'd leave my wife, or she me, if one of us tragically lost the ability to perform is absurd. This topic is clearly talking about people who _voluntarily _decide to withold sex from their partners, or make people work overtime to have sex with them.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

During our separation, and even up to the separation when things were iffy, our sex life didn't falter.

I just like sex. H likes sex. We like sex with each other. Right now we're broke (even though things are looking up!!  ) but why should that stop us from having sex? It's free fun! hahaha...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

that_girl said:


> But is it work? It's just common decency to treat people well...especially people that you love. It's no more work than it is 'work' for me to cook for my family, brush my hair, or take a shower. It's just what you do :scratchhead:. No?
> 
> "Work" for me is doing things I don't want to do, but have to do anyway. That's work. Being nice to my spouse isn't work. It just is.


People get caught up in their children, their jobs, life's twists and turns and forget to do nice things for each other. Others start taking each other for granted and get lazy about doing nice things for each other. If your husband started doing fewer and fewer nice things for you, it might start to feel like work for you to keep doing nice things for him. Or maybe not. For me, that definitely would happen. 

I believe a great sex life is indicative of a strong relationship outside the bedroom. If it's not working in the bedroom, there is something outside the bedroom that isn't working. Maybe that's not how other people see it, but I can't enjoy sex with someone - I can't feel that deep emotional connection that comes with sex - unless my relationship feels good outside of sex.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

This thread is making me want to break out the leingere tomorrow when H comes home from work.....


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

norajane said:


> People get caught up in their children, their jobs, life's twists and turns and forget to do nice things for each other. Others start taking each other for granted and get lazy about doing nice things for each other. If your husband started doing fewer and fewer nice things for you, it might start to feel like work for you to keep doing nice things for him.


yes, resentment is quite insidious, we typically don't become aware of it until it has already broken the bond. Sex is a way to restore that bond, but its only possible after you can overcome the resentment - no easy task. Its been said on here before, sex is only 5% of the problem when you are getting it, its when you aren't getting it sex is 95% of the problem... or something like that.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, if we start to slide, we talk about it. We call each other on it. I wouldn't stop doing anything for him, I'd just say, "Hey! What's up in your world?" We learned that much in separation. Sex and staying connected is a priority in this house. Kids take a back seat to it. We love our children, they just don't run this house. 

However, communication needs to be strong and there has to be a freedom to express oneself in the home without being shut down. We have that here...and it works. Sure, things can get out of control, but once we feel things are going the wrong way, we reel it back in and focus on what's important. 

I had some great role models growing up. Not my parents (omg no), but my friends' parents. Three of my friends had the BEST parents. They acted like they were still dating and each family had 3 or more kids! 

but I think that comes from internal maturity and emotional health. Two things that I lacked, and two things I KNOW my parents lacked. Therapy helped me a TON and I no longer play those "tit for tat" games. I do all things from love, even when I'm not feeling too loving at the moment. Feelings ebb and flow, but I try to keep my actions constant. No one can make you feel anything. You can feel and react however you want to towards someone's actions, THAT creates the attitude of the home. And I've learned in my home that by being calm, constant and loving (even in hard times and moments), I get a calm, constant and loving husband. I never expected him to change, I just became the change I wanted to see in my marriage. Might some cliche, but it worked for me.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Sex really does solve issues! Usually our issues arise because one or both of us isn't feeling close to the other. Sex solves this issue like no other remedy can.


I absolutely believe this.Anytime my SO and I get short with each other,bickering over dumb stuff too...once we make love it's all back to being lovey and sweet.We reconnect and bond and remember how much we love each other no matter what else is going on.

If you feel disconnected,you get more sarcastic,more defensive about ridiculous things,and your partner starts to feel more like an annoying roommate than a lover.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

that_girl said:


> During our separation, and even up to the separation when things were iffy, our sex life didn't falter.
> 
> I just like sex. H likes sex. We like sex with each other. Right now we're broke (even though things are looking up!!  ) but why should that stop us from having sex? It's free fun! hahaha...


i have to say i love your attitude about things


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Scarlet,
This post captures the essence of what starts the death spiral. Your reaction was perfectly normal. 

I see no difference between what your ex did - and a set of non-physical chasing behaviors that show an equal lack of respect for yourself and your partner. 

Sometimes my W's body language clearly reflects zero desire for sex. It is unmistakable. To initiate in those situations is to say:
- I don't care how you feel
- I don't care what you want
- I only know what I WANT

Equally it is true that if she were in that "mode" most/all of the time, then our marital interaction would be sharply reduced. 

I really have come to believe that most/all nice guy behavior is at root, fear driven. And that a "nice/guy" paired with a woman who has the emotional need for "excitement" is an almost certain sexual disaster waiting to happen. 

Getting angry and/or loud with your LD wife because she has deprioritized you does not create "excitement". It simply reflects the HD persons desperate need for her to demonstrate a higher level of commitment/relationship stability. 

In this type situation, the basis for ALL of her excitement is predicated on not knowing what her PARTNER will do. So when he breaks pattern/shows indifference and she is unable to push the standard set of buttons to get him to resume chasing her - THAT is exciting. 

So imagine your LD spouse loves the thrill of a roller-coaster. And you go on the ride with her. And the whole time you are angry and tense. The ride may be exciting for her, but it is not fun. 




ScarletBegonias said:


> As a former LD woman,I have to admit the more my ex chased me for sex the more repulsed I became by him.On the outside we appeared sexually satiated and happy.On the inside,it was never enough for him.We did it a few times a week and when we weren't doing it he was panting after me like a rabid dog begging me for something anything...a hj,a bj,baby just touch it at least...UGH. I wanted to throw up watching him do that.
> 
> I'll never chase anyone like that for sex even though I consider myself HD these days and he shouldn't have done it either.
> 
> ...


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> For clarification, I don't think women who have other emotional needs outside of sex are difficult because they have those needs.
> 
> For myself, sex is an essential part of the romantic aspects of our relationship.
> 
> *Seduction, attraction, flirtation and the art of being pursued* by my husband are indescribably romantic and I love it. My husband is a total player, but he's faithful and only has eyes for me so it's all good.  He knows how to get me going.


Seduction, attraction, flirtation and the art of being pursued.............these things should happen outside of the bedroom......IMO............for things to heat up inside the bedroom, or kitchen, or sofa.........or wherever you choose to get it on. 

If you go to dinner with your husband/wife and talk about your day, the weather, kids, your weekend plans, etc......that is not sexy, attractive, nor flirtatious. That does not get my juices flowing.....and does not put me in any sexy mood.

If you go to dinner with your husband/wife and there's sexually charged flirting, holding hands, playing footsie under table, engaging in eye contact, and holding on to each other's words.....then....HELLO....juices are flowing, you're both wanting to get the check, and get the heck out of there....to go home and rip each other's clothes off for some hot passionate love making.

JMO!! But you must also be sexually attracted to each other.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> Suppose conversation was an important need for you. Suppose then your spouse said to you "Why do you have to talk to me today...we talked two weeks ago.. how about we talk two weeks from now? It's not like you're going to die if you don't talk to me today."
> 
> How would that make you feel? For many men and women, sex is just as important as conversation or domestic support or whatever other need you have.


I very well see the point that everyone is trying to make about how sex = food and water. If you want to say, "Without sex a marriage will die. It is as important as food or water to the _marriage_." Now that is a fair comparison. However, as an individual, your heart will not literally stop beating if you don't have sex with your partner. Sex is NOT as important as food or water in a pure physical regard. That is the point that I was trying to make. And there is a difference between _feeling_ like you are going to die and actually dying.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Well, if we start to slide, we talk about it. We call each other on it. I wouldn't stop doing anything for him, I'd just say, "Hey! What's up in your world?" We learned that much in separation. Sex and staying connected is a priority in this house. Kids take a back seat to it. We love our children, they just don't run this house.
> 
> However, communication needs to be strong and there has to be a freedom to express oneself in the home without being shut down. We have that here...and it works. Sure, things can get out of control, but once we feel things are going the wrong way, we reel it back in and focus on what's important.
> 
> ...


Easily one of the best posts I've ever read on here. This should be required reading. If most people took this approach so many of the problems in a marriage would evaporate.

:smthumbup:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I very well see the point that everyone is trying to make about how sex = food and water. If you want to say, "Without sex a marriage will die. It is as important as food or water to the _marriage_." Now that is a fair comparison. However, as an individual, your heart will not literally stop beating if you don't have sex with your partner. Sex is NOT as important as food or water in a pure physical regard. That is the point that I was trying to make. And there is a difference between _feeling_ like you are going to die and actually dying.


I'm pretty sure every single person in this thread is well aware of the difference between figurative death and literal death from a lack of bodily sustenance.

But since this is a board that's about marital survival, people assume that we're discussing the health and vitality of a marriage, and all analogies exist in that greater context. I don't think a single person here was imagining anybody would take this so literally.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm pretty sure every single person in this thread is well aware of the difference between figurative death and literal death from a lack of bodily sustenance.
> 
> But since this is a board that's about marital survival, people assume that we're discussing the health and vitality of a marriage, and all analogies exist in that greater context. I don't think a single person here was imagining anybody would take this so literally.


My first reply about equating sex to food, water, and other physical necessities was in reply to this:

_"I think part of what is ignored here is - what do the two parties consider "essential" to life. breathing air. eating food. drinking water. and for men: sex. the problem is he can breathe and eat and drink on his own but he NEEDS a woman for sex. 

he marries in expectation that now "he is complete" and can get the sex he needs in addition to the air, food and water. 

but then the wife withholds sex." _

The poster above said that sex (to men) is as important as air and water. When women with hold it, it is the same as depriving men of air and water. I do not agree with _this._

I asked my husband about sex and food and water last night.

"Honey, do you think sex equals food and water?"

And he looks at me with a smirk and says "That's what men would like you to think."


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

Withholding sex is depriving a man of something he needs. maybe not as critical as air or water or food but something he Needs. the distinction I am trying to make here is "want" vs. "need" not "life threatening" vs. "optional" 

And I agree with you that there is more to marriage than sex, however if the sex is not attended to on a regular and reasonable basis (according to the Man) then it doesn't matter how good everything else is, he is going to check out one way or the other. 

When a man leaves a marriage or strays (cheats) because the wife refuses sex, she's generally going to say "why, why, why?" and look to the Man for the reason he left (he's selfish, he doesn't care about me, etc) 

If my DH were to leave or stray I would look to myself first: "what did I not give him or wasn't willing to do that he needed to find elsewhere?" 

I submit to you that I am ahead of the game in keeping my DH home for the duration ... not because I am fabulous but because I have the right attitude. I am respectful of his needs as a man and I show him by being flexible, open and interested in everything that's important to him, sex being the #1 item. 

I will also say that every busy wife who withholds sex because they are "too busy", "too tired" should think about it this way, just ONCE: "what will take less time/effort? giving him a quick HJ/BJ and being involved and interested in the process or shoving him away?" 

In my world, investing time and energy in learning how to give a great HJ/BJ means that when he needs sex and I'm busy or tired I can satisfy him and then go about my day with no muss, no fuss. He's happy and so am I. It's a win/win. Why WOULDN'T you want that in your marriage??


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> I submit to you that I am ahead of the game in keeping my DH home for the duration ... not because I am fabulous but because I have the right attitude. I am respectful of his needs as a man and I show him by being flexible, open and interested in everything that's important to him, sex being the #1 item.
> 
> I will also say that every busy wife who withholds sex because they are "too busy", "too tired" should think about it this way, just ONCE: "what will take less time/effort? giving him a quick HJ/BJ and being involved and interested in the process or shoving him away?"
> 
> In my world, investing time and energy in learning how to give a great HJ/BJ means that when he needs sex and I'm busy or tired I can satisfy him and then go about my day with no muss, no fuss. He's happy and so am I. It's a win/win. Why WOULDN'T you want that in your marriage??


I agree with you on this. I've learned this as a wife. When my husband is sexually satisfied, he is an easier man to be around. I DO think depriving your husband (or wife) of sex is wrong. If you love someone, why would you not want to make him/her happy? And you are right: shoving him away ultimately does take more time in the long run (it results in resentment and time-consuming arguments).


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Everyone is talking about needs of a man, what a man needs, sex is for men.

Huh?

I need sex. I needed a partner that could keep up and H blew my mind! We've gone no more than 2 weeks (after baby and after surgery) in our 5 years and after 2 days, we're both itchin. 

H and I talked about his friends who don't get any sex. Ever. Oh wait, they get it on their birthdays and Christmas.  H and I agreed that if our marriage hit that mark, there would be some serious talks/counceling and/or testing to see if everything was ok physically.

I told him I wouldn't stay in a sexless marriage unless medically he had to abstain. He agreed. I know not every couple sees things like that, but we didn't get married to NOT have sex when we wanted, or to have to beg for sex. I didn't have to do that when dating, I refuse to do it when married. 

So, while men say they NEED sex, some women do too. Of course, I don't know what it feels like to be a man, but they don't know what it feels like to be me. H is home today and I'm letting him sleep in a bit, but it is taking all of me not to go in there and jump him. 

Taking care of your spouse's needs is very important. Sex is an emotional and physical need/want. Why withhold that from the person you're supposed to love, cherish and all the other things you promised to do? I just don't understand that. There are some men who don't want sex too, and it just baffles me. Sex is not everything, but it's pretty dang important. A marriage without sex/intimacy/connection would be very empty indeed. I'd rather be single at that point if things couldn't be worked out.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I am the opposite of a wuss, but this post brought tears to my eyes. I have never loved any woman as much as I love my wife. And the constant physical rejection has changed the person I am....in a negative way.

I'm through bartering for sex by seducing her mind. I'm through cleaning bathrooms, dishes, laundry etc on top of my "regular" guy chores just to have a sliver of intimacy. I know there are woman out there that would want me. I know it. I'm not charity and honestly, F her for doing this to me.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

(response to that girl): I agree, I dig it too but not at the frequency DH digs it. hence the short and sweet "fill ins" 

this is not to say I don't get into our regular vanilla during the week sessions or our marathon date nights every couple of weeks. but, that would be enough for me. but not for him. 

(to sinnister): I am sorry. :-( that sucks.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

sinnister said:


> I am the opposite of a wuss, but this post brought tears to my eyes. I have never loved any woman as much as I love my wife. And the constant physical rejection has changed the person I am....in a negative way.
> 
> I'm through bartering for sex by seducing her mind. I'm through cleaning bathrooms, dishes, laundry etc on top of my "regular" guy chores just to have a sliver of intimacy. I know there are woman out there that would want me. I know it. I'm not charity and honestly, F her for doing this to me.


 Sorry, man. That really sucks. 

I wish women KNEW what they were doing to their men when they do this.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I am the opposite of a wuss, but this post brought tears to my eyes. I have never loved any woman as much as I love my wife. And the constant physical rejection has changed the person I am....in a negative way.
> 
> I'm through bartering for sex by seducing her mind. I'm through cleaning bathrooms, dishes, laundry etc on top of my "regular" guy chores just to have a sliver of intimacy. I know there are woman out there that would want me. I know it. I'm not charity and honestly, F her for doing this to me.


I wonder if your wife truly understands how much she is hurting you? Does she WANT to hurt you in this way? As a LD spouse, there were times in my marriage where I truly did not understand my husband's need for sex. For me personally, I had a lot of resentment and anger that impacted our sexual life. I did not outright try to hurt him by with holding the sex. But it was hard for me to feel sexual toward him when I felt angry and resentful all the time. And I want to emphasize that the anger and resentment I felt were NOT his fault. They were things that I had to work through on my own and with a therapist. I hope things get better for you.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I know she doesn't understand. I've tried to explain this to her but in typical guy form (sigh) I dont capture the emotion the way I can by writing anonymously on this forum. I know she has resentment, anger, body issues and is tired from work, the kids etc. But other women find a way to make it work. They are willing to put in the effort to make it work. What makes my situation worse is she acknowledges that there is a problem but refuses to work with me to resolve it. Throwing me a random, un-enthused BJ every 3 weeks or so is not cutting it. I need to know she desires me. That she has a sexual need for me. I dont want to simply be pleased. That's what ho's are for and it wont satisfy the need I have for HER.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Sorry, man. That really sucks.
> 
> I wish women KNEW what they were doing to their men when they do this.


Sad thing is, some women do know.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Sad thing is, some women do know.


It's true. I agree that some women (and men) who are very angry at their spouses (for whatever reason) use lack of sex as the ultimate control and punishment.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I know she has resentment, anger, body issues and is tired from work, the kids etc. But other women find a way to make it work. They are willing to put in the effort to make it work.


I don't know your story, but I will say that it's a rare woman who wants to have sex if she's resentful and angry with her husband. How is she supposed to desire him and desire emotional and physical intimacy if she feels resentful and angry? Those issues that are creating the distance between them need to be addressed and resolved, or she's not likely going to feel desire for him.

I'm not saying the resentment and anger is all his fault in those cases, but they point to issues between the couple that get int he way of a strong relationship and would end up causing its demise for reasons _other _than sex.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

one of the revelations I had this past spring as I was thinking to myself "why am I so bored and unhappy?" ... I think I had grown over the years to think it was because my DH didn't help enough, made too much mess, and was a general pain in my [email protected]@ (sorry.) 

why I was blaming him and focusing on the negative I will NEVER know. we live on an awesome horse farm (which I dreamed of my whole life since I was 6 years old) in beautiful farm country, he helps fund my riding and showing with my horses, joined our local saddle club with me, helps with the kids and their ponies and all of our other activities. he is also cute and funny and fun to be around. 

one day in February, don't exactly know when don't exactly know why I suddenly thought "what am I doing?? I am so angry that he doesn't help, doesn't do this, doesn't do that ... why don't I focus on the GOOD things instead?? and get my self out of my own rut first?" So, much like as described in the MMSL MAP (which I hadn't heard of by this point), I started working out, improving my attitude, letting go of the small stuff, quit worrying about how clean the house was and whether DH was getting his honey-do list completed. 

I found, to my complete and utter surprise that my life got so much better! I wasn't mad any more. I wasn't lazy and tired and boring any more. My DH was so much more interested in talking to me about his day, he brightened up more and more every day. It was like he didn't believe it would really keep going like this ... "she's gonna regress to being a b1tch I just know it!" now, he is really on board like he has his best friend back and he couldn't be happier. 

I am posting this for the guys whose wives are withholding sex and just generally being b1tches. you know, maybe they need the MAP. they need to work on their stuff. it really is THEIR stuff, not yours! I don't know how you can communicate this to them but maybe having a talk with them about how they would want to feel and what they would think if they suddenly found themselves today terminally ill and on their deathbed: would they think "I wish I could have gotten that sink cleaner" or "I wish my lazy husband would have gotten the porch rails installed sooner" ... or would they rather be thinking "thank god for the great and fun time we had together last night, last week ... and what great friends my DH and I are" ??


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> I am posting this for the guys whose wives are withholding sex and just generally being b1tches. you know, maybe they need the MAP. they need to work on their stuff. it really is THEIR stuff, not yours! I don't know how you can communicate this to them but maybe having a talk with them about how they would want to feel and what they would think if they suddenly found themselves today terminally ill and on their deathbed: would they think "I wish I could have gotten that sink cleaner" or "I wish my lazy husband would have gotten the porch rails installed sooner" ... or would they rather be thinking "thank god for the great and fun time we had together last night, last week ... and what great friends my DH and I are" ??


This is something I did myself. I pictured myself 50 years from now kissing my husband and best friend good bye for the last time. You know what one of my biggest regrets was? (And now MY eyes are getting watery). Not having more enthusiastic, frequent, and meaningful sex with him. Life is just too short to hold onto anger/resentment. I want to grow old with my husband knowing that I have fulfilled him sexually and knowing that I did everything I could to create a beautiful relationship with him.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

momtwo4 said:


> This is something I did myself. I pictured myself 50 years from now kissing my husband and best friend good bye for the last time. You know what one of my biggest regrets was? (And now MY eyes are getting watery). Not having more enthusiastic, frequent, and meaningful sex with him. Life is just too short to hold onto anger/resentment. I want to grow old with my husband knowing that I have fulfilled him sexually and knowing that I did everything I could to create a beautiful relationship with him.


We need a pill a la The Matrix that really makes this understanding sink in for our spouses (Man or Woman).

Seriously, how do you make someone understand this? It takes so much introspective that is nearly impossible for an external factor to drive.

It is almost like an addict that needs to hit rock bottom before they see the light. Sometimes that rock bottom is truly knowing that your spouse realizes his needs are important enough to leave the marriage to find someone else to appreciates those needs.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

Exactly. If sex is important to him, it's important to participate and be enthusiastic about it even during those times when you're maybe not up for it. Because you love him. But it also really helps to let go of the dirty socks in a pile in the bedroom and the dishes he never rinses and the paddock rails he doesn't nail back in for weeks and the pasture corners he forgot to mow ... and just be a good friend, with benefits. Because that sh1t is gonna get done eventually and it has a much higher chance of it getting done if everyone is happy, satisfied and on an upwardly mobile trajectory of "glad to be married".


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

hubby said:


> We need a pill a la The Matrix that really makes this understanding sink in for our spouses (Man or Woman).


Luckily I found it myself, somewhere inside, one day out of the blue. No idea why. 

but the idea of the Red Pill is online at the Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. 

There is a lot of good stuff to scrape out of there, for either sex. I found it accidentally, after I had already run through my "thing" but the MAP describes perfectly what I went through. I think it's intended for men but it worked just as fine for me as a woman, I just needed to alter things a bit; I mirror imaged a lot of the stuff ... meaning I started thinking of my DH as Alpha and that directed my attitude and behavior accordingly. It has worked UNBELIEVABLY well. 

And just for the record I am far, far from a submissive or timid female; I have found that unnecessary in order to show appreciation and respect for my DH. :-D


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I had some great role models growing up. Not my parents (omg no), but my friends' parents. Three of my friends had the BEST parents. They acted like they were still dating and each family had 3 or more kids!


I love that. Actually just the other day my 15 year old son commented on how we've been weird for the last few months and how we're acting like teenagers. The whole thing is weirding him out.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I love that. Actually just the other day my 15 year old son commented on how we've been weird for the last few months and how we're acting like teenagers. The whole thing is weirding him out.


HA! Reminds me of a song from my favorite band:

What's the Matter with Parents Today


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

Take the Red Pill: 
What is the Red Pill? | Married Man Sex Life


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I also like to 'weird out' my 13 year old. She might be weirded out now, but she'll learn what a marriage is.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually just the other day my 15 year old son commented on how we've been weird for the last few months and how we're acting like teenagers. The whole thing is weirding him out.


Ours too!! They're especially are angry? weirded? perturbed when we announce "you're going to Grandmas this weekend!!" pack your sh1t and get out! (they are 19, 17 and 12) It's all great fun.

Or, when I come into their bedroom at 10pm and tell them: "put on your headphones!!"


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> Ours too!! They're especially are angry? weirded? perturbed when we announce "you're going to Grandmas this weekend!!" pack your sh1t and get out! (they are 19, 17 and 12) It's all great fun.
> 
> Or, when I come into their bedroom at 10pm and tell them: "put on your headphones!!"


LOL Okay, but what do you do when you have a very adventurous 16-month-old who will not stay in his crib?? Sometimes I feel like we're playing hide and seek from the baby (and three other kids) to get some intimate time. One night we were enjoying each other and there comes the little tot sliding down the stairs with a big grin on his face! Sometimes I can hardly wait for them to get a little older!!!


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

sinnister said:


> I know she doesn't understand. I've tried to explain this to her but in typical guy form (sigh) I dont capture the emotion the way I can by writing anonymously on this forum. I know she has resentment, anger, body issues and is tired from work, the kids etc. But other women find a way to make it work. They are willing to put in the effort to make it work. What makes my situation worse is she acknowledges that there is a problem but refuses to work with me to resolve it. Throwing me a random, un-enthused BJ every 3 weeks or so is not cutting it. I need to know she desires me. That she has a sexual need for me. I dont want to simply be pleased. That's what ho's are for and it wont satisfy the need I have for HER.


Are we married to the same woman? I got the physical intimacy troubles are a symptom of bigger issues talk, but she cant tell me what the bigger issues are exactly, and she dosent know why she has this lack of feelings for me...and then of course she said she just dosent like sex :scratchhead:...I'm like ok when did this happen? you just pretended all these years, she sadi sometimes she did...oh boy did that ever make feel me feel like man..NOT!!!

I asked her if she ever felt love during sex the connection,bonding, not just with me but with past partners and she said no...I almost bawled..i said you have no idea what youve been missing, i would love to share that with you.

shes in IC trying to figure out who she is and what she wants out of life etc etc, that maybe were to incompatableshe also had a mini e/a with coworker..not the ILY type, just crossed some boundaries.

...I'm also going to IC working on my own issues,my Past crap shes noticed some positive changes, but she still cannot iniate a hug or a kiss, said shes afried I will want it to lead to sex, which I course I said I understand thats how you feel, but i have not initated taking it farther in quite some time, every two weeks or so, I've been happy to just hold her in bed, back rubs etc, and not feel rejected or act likea little pouting boy when shes not in the mood, I play it off being as being ok, because it has been ok...she says she feels a constant pressure to have sex, i said i feel a constant pressure not to, she said she dosent want to be in a posistion she uncomfortable with (not sexual psositions lol) and I said I dont want you to feel that way, just like i dont want to feel the same, being in posistion I'm not happy about either.

I'm done explaining, that physical touch, a hug a kiss,holding hands, and making love/sex all tie toghether for me, it means love,bonding,emotioanl connection, she just cant give that to me now, said she dosent know if those feelings will come back...
So I am at total loss, mappped it, i'm in awesome physical shape I turned down the therm ,no results, shes happy with the status quo..

starting a 180, detaching slowly, doing my own thing asking her to go out with me ,if she wants, cool if she does cool if she dosent. 

ahh this sucks..but I'm actually starting to think I may be better off without her.

anyone have any ideas or am I effen nuts?

PS..I asked her about resentments, said shes let go of the past and dosent feel like our issues are realted to any resentments


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I very well see the point that everyone is trying to make about how sex = food and water. If you want to say, "Without sex a marriage will die. It is as important as food or water to the _marriage_." Now that is a fair comparison. However, as an individual, your heart will not literally stop beating if you don't have sex with your partner. Sex is NOT as important as food or water in a pure physical regard. That is the point that I was trying to make. And there is a difference between _feeling_ like you are going to die and actually dying.


Are you just being obtuse for the sake of being argumentative? 
You keep posting this as if people think they're really going to die.
No one believes that they are literally going to die, it's a metaphor!


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Are we married to the same woman? I got the physical intimacy troubles are a symptom of bigger issues talk, but she cant tell me what the bigger issues are exactly, and she dosent know why she has this lack of feelings for me...and then of course she said she just dosent like sex :scratchhead:...I'm like ok when did this happen? you just pretended all these years, she sadi sometimes she did...oh boy did that ever make feel me feel like man..NOT!!!
> 
> I asked her if she ever felt love during sex the connection,bonding, not just with me but with past partners and she said no...I almost bawled..i said you have no idea what youve been missing, i would love to share that with you.
> 
> ...


Im in the same boat. I am so happy that the OP brought out exactly what I had been feeling all along.... 
If you have tried enough and it doesnt change then leave... like the OP said no grovelling begging etc...


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> "Honey, do you think sex equals food and water?"
> 
> And he looks at me with a smirk and says "That's what men would like you to think."


Thats because he maybe getting all the sex he wants from you and is truly happy with you.... Pls do not generalise !!!


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

mina said:


> I submit to you that I am ahead of the game in keeping my DH home for the duration ... not because I am fabulous but because I have the right attitude. I am respectful of his needs as a man and I show him by being flexible, open and interested in everything that's important to him, sex being the #1 item.


I love you for being this poignantly blatantly stating this. Wish my wife would understand this.


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I know she doesn't understand. I've tried to explain this to her but in typical guy form (sigh) I dont capture the emotion the way I can by writing anonymously on this forum. I know she has resentment, anger, body issues and is tired from work, the kids etc. But other women find a way to make it work. They are willing to put in the effort to make it work. What makes my situation worse is she acknowledges that there is a problem but refuses to work with me to resolve it. Throwing me a random, un-enthused BJ every 3 weeks or so is not cutting it. I need to know she desires me. That she has a sexual need for me. I dont want to simply be pleased. That's what ho's are for and it wont satisfy the need I have for HER.


I'm in a similar boat here . And when I try to convey this message to her I get, "Yeah, yeah....I know".


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I absolutely believe this.Anytime my SO and I get short with each other,bickering over dumb stuff too...once we make love it's all back to being lovey and sweet.We reconnect and bond and remember how much we love each other no matter what else is going on.
> 
> If you feel disconnected,you get more sarcastic,more defensive about ridiculous things,and your partner starts to feel more like an annoying roommate than a lover.


I simply love ScarletBegonias, Mina, that_girl ----- what could I do to have your thoughts or have you talk to my wife........ I feel now that my wife withholding sex, being blase about it, doing it like a chore is making me slowly impotent !!!! I am scared about this.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

ukv said:


> I simply love ScarletBegonias, Mina, that_girl ----- what could I do to have your thoughts or have you talk to my wife........ I feel now that my wife withholding sex, being blase about it, doing it like a chore is making me slowly impotent !!!! I am scared about this.


No doubt. If there was a way to gather up all the "enlightened" spouses on this board and have some sort of separate online support forum or even have a phone call with the withholding spouses...it would save so many marriages.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mt4,
So far I think your views in this are balanced and healthy. The one area we differ is what to do if repeatedly rejected: If it was "me" I wouldn't go work on me. I would however ask her "what's up". Which brings us back to your earlier point which is that respect, commitment and communication matter more than sex does in a marriage. Because almost all the sexless marriages here are caused by breakdowns in THOSE areas. Faced with back to back rejections, I am not ordering a self improvement book on amazon. I am going to ask questions, and if I get stonewalled my response would be: I'm confused, you are rejecting me which is not normal for us, and now you are refusing to say why. That is not ok.

Imagine one day your H stops saying "I love you". Even when you say it first, he doesn't say it back. When you ask why, he won't answer. 
That refusal is some mix of commitment, respect and communication problem. 


QUOTE=momtwo4;934631]Honestly, I probably would be offended. My husband knows me well, and if I started to turn him down, there would probably be a big reason why that is happening. Hopefully he could be patient with me and we could work to solve the problem together.

If my husband started turning me down, I would definitely be hurt. But I don't think I would start confronting him with "it's my right to have sex in marriage." Instead, I would probably stop initiating for a while and work on "ME." There has to be some reason why the sex has dried up. It doesn't just dry up for NO reason.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ukv said:


> I simply love ScarletBegonias, Mina, that_girl ----- what could I do to have your thoughts or have you talk to my wife........ I feel now that my wife withholding sex, being blase about it, doing it like a chore is making me slowly impotent !!!! I am scared about this.


It doesn't work that way for every woman. If a woman is upset and angry with you, she might feel better and more bonded after having sex, and may feel less upset and resentful. But _most _women would not be feeling the least bit interested in sex and having sex (a chore, at that point) won't bring you closer together - it just makes her more resentful.

Honestly, if your wife doesn't want to have sex with you and isn't interested in shoring up your relationship outside the bedroom to fix the problems in the bedroom, all you can do is choose whether to live with it or not. I don't understand staying in a marriage where your partner is a brick wall.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Are you just being obtuse for the sake of being argumentative?
> You keep posting this as if people think they're really going to die.
> No one believes that they are literally going to die, it's a metaphor!


And are you being rude for the purpose of being argumentative? I know very well what a metaphor is. I simply do not believe it was a fit metaphor. I explained why. I know most people disagree with me, but that does notmean that I shouldn't express my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This isn't correct. A third party isn't going to get your wife to repect you. Only you can do that.

And being unwilling to destabilize a relationship in a non-toxic manner requires first that you achieve "an acceptance of an ending"


QUOTE=hubby;936368]No doubt. If there was a way to gather up all the "enlightened" spouses on this board and have some sort of separate online support forum or even have a phone call with the withholding spouses...it would save so many marriages.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> And are you being rude for the purpose of being argumentative? I know very well what a metaphor is. I simply ddo not believe it was a fit metaphor. I explained why. I know most people disagree with me, but that does notmean that I shouldn't express my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh please, I'm rude because I called you out?
You keep saying the same thing over & over again, for what purpose?
You've expressed your opinion several times, WE GET IT. 
That's the very meaning of being obstuse.


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

mina said:


> If you married a man, you made a contract to have sex with him when he wants it the way he wants it (within reason; consenting adults and all that; values, norms, you know what I mean.)


Touche 
I love u for this ! So much so that I want this to be communicated by the governments all accross the world in all possible ways...

This should be boarded on the church, trains, railway stations, bus stops, stadiums....
what bout the kids...... mmmm problem


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"most women would not be feeling the least bit interested in sex and having sex (a chore, at that point) won't bring you closer together - it just makes her more resentful."

and those resentful wives I believe share one main thing in common: lack of appreciation and respect for their men as men. 

they are worried about dirty socks on the floor and pastures that don't get mowed. they are not showing him appreciation for the good things he does do and instead focus on the negative. they then convince themselves that he "does not deserve sex" and they "don't have to give it to him"

therefore, he does not clean up his dirty socks or mow the pasture. everyone is angry. everyone is resentful. and nothing moves FORWARD to a positive place. 

unfortunately in most marriages, it starts with the women. as the keeper of the home and family they convince themselves that cleaning and managing play dates is more important than appreciating and showing respect for their men - who in a lot of ways make the home and family POSSIBLE. 

what hoops does he have to jump through to get to the other side of the resentment and maybe, possibly, hopefully at least get laid? more cleaning? more helping? at some point the men see that once one hoop is jumped just more hoops are placed in the way. it has to be exhausting. thank god I am not a man, I'd never put up with that!! 

either the women need to wake up and realize what they have and appreciate it or the men need to wake them. I don't have any answers just my observations.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mt4,
I think the best way for me to say this is: 
In order for the "spirit" of our marriage to remain alive I need to feel loved. And for me, that means my wife needs to show a minimum level of:
- commitment
- respect and
- communication 
Of course the same is true in reverse - from me to her.

So when I say: I NEED sex. What I mean is: without some minimal (and yes I get to define that - and like any adult I factor in health, hormones, and external factors that cause emotional states that disrupt desire) amount of sex, I feel depriorotized. When that happens, I speak up. Briefly, mostly calmly and firmly. If not resolved in a reasonable manner I begin to withdraw emotionally. This is not about being aggressive. Nor is it passive hostility. It is simply recognition that for me: I am not ok sustaining a giant imbalance in the energy (time, money, love) each of usI puts into the marriage. 




momtwo4 said:


> And are you being rude for the purpose of being argumentative? I know very well what a metaphor is. I simply ddo not believe it was a fit metaphor. I explained why. I know most people disagree with me, but that does notmean that I shouldn't express my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

My husband and I were talking last night, and we both agreed(as we have many times) about just how important sex is in a relationship and how it is, indeed, a right of each spouse. I thought of it like this: When we married we did so with the understanding that we would each be honest with each other; that we would communicate; that we would be faithful; that we would love each other, whether we were poor or rich, sick or healthy. We also married under the understanding that we would have sex. 

It was good to talk to him about this again because it's been a while, and we're working through a season.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

mina said:


> "most women would not be feeling the least bit interested in sex and having sex (a chore, at that point) won't bring you closer together - it just makes her more resentful."
> 
> and those resentful wives I believe share one main thing in common: lack of appreciation and respect for their men as men.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
A-flipping-men!
I think too many women forget that the very man they married made it possible for them to have the very life/family that they are putting before their husbands.
Without the husband, would they still have the life they have?
I doubt it, keep the bond strong, do what you can to make sure your husband knows everyday that you appreciate all he does to give you the life you hold so dear.
Personally I'd much rather go have sex then wash the dishes or do laundry. 
I know I'm happy & relaxed after sex, as is the husband.
Hmm, happy & relaxed, or cranky & pissy?
I know which choice I'd make.


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

mina said:


> "most women would not be feeling the least bit interested in sex and having sex (a chore, at that point) won't bring you closer together - it just makes her more resentful."
> 
> and those resentful wives I believe share one main thing in common: lack of appreciation and respect for their men as men.
> 
> ...


Respect !!!! Its one of the most fundamental and obvious and yet so profound !!!

I feel shaken that you have said something that is really as if my heart spoke !!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

At 8 pm or so I would put on a video they all can watch ask the oldest child to play with the 16 month old if need be. I would nicely tell the kids that mom and dad need one hour to talk about something important without interruption so unless it's a TRUE emergency, please don't knock on the door to their room. 

And yes - at a certain age your oldest will "know". And that is a GOOD thing, it sets an example to them for what a loving marriage includes. 




momtwo4 said:


> LOL Okay, but what do you do when you have a very adventurous 16-month-old who will not stay in his crib?? Sometimes I feel like we're playing hide and seek from the baby (and three other kids) to get some intimate time. One night we were enjoying each other and there comes the little tot sliding down the stairs with a big grin on his face! Sometimes I can hardly wait for them to get a little older!!!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Mt4,
> I think the best way for me to say this is:
> In order for the "spirit" of our marriage to remain alive I need to feel loved. And for me, that means my wife needs to show a minimum level of:
> - commitment
> ...


My respect to you for these words !!!! I will quote these to my wife since you have put it so beautifully and eloquently.... I am a lesser mortal apparently however that it does bring some display of resentment and aggression...

I am editing this because it mislead quite a few guys. I meant to say I respect MEM--- for putting it so beautifully and eloquently. I also meant to say that I tend to become angry and aggressive when my needs are not met.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ukv said:


> respect !!!! I will quote these to my wife since you have put it so beautifully and eloquently.... I am a lesser mortal apparently however that it does bring some display of resentment and aggression...


If your wife does not respect you, telling her that she should respect you isn't really going to change anything unless that leads to her telling you why she doesn't already respect you.

And don't forget the other part of MEM's post...it goes both ways. Do you respect your wife?


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

Actually I don't agree that "respect" goes both ways equally. yes I expect my DH to respect me as a person but he is the ~Lead~ person in our marriage and he gets deference ~by default~ by virtue of his position. 

I love the "Alpha" expression because I have dogs and horses and yes I think it fits. I am second in command to my DH who is Captain. 

That is a very important distinction in the idea of respect going "both ways." Someone has to be in charge, someone has to be the Alpha, someone has to be the Man. It should be the man. Being second in command is very freeing and DH loves being the man. 

(again, this is coming from an independent and not fragile female.)


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mina said:


> Actually I don't agree that "respect" goes both ways equally. yes I expect my DH to respect me as a person but he is the ~Lead~ person in our marriage and he gets deference ~by default~ by virtue of his position.
> 
> I love the "Alpha" expression because I have dogs and horses and yes I think it fits. I am second in command to my DH who is Captain.
> 
> ...


Ok, you've lost me there. I believe in partnerships, not leaders and followers by default.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

OK,
I haven't read the entire thread,so forgive me if I'm repeating what was said before.or if I get this entire argument wrong.

Marriage is a contract that includes sex. 

A wife is supposed to give her husband sex in whatever fashion[within reason] and whenever he feels like it.

There is to be no witholding of sex.


But something seems to be missing here.
If the marriage is a contract and a wife is supposed to meet her husband's sexual needs,what about her needs?
What if her needs are not being met?
If he wants sex when he comes home, or 2AM in the morning when he wakes up with an erection and she is not in a good place emotionally, is it then her responsibility to " fix herself emotionally" and then fix her husband's needs?

I think not.Sounds pretty one way to me. 
Absolutely nothing in the world operates on that principle.
Not Capitalism , not the banking system or an ATM. 
If you don't have a job , a savings in a bank or an investment that pays regular dividends *YOU GET ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY FROM THE ATM.*
It will always tell you " not enough funds" when you insert your bank card, no matter how much you beg,plead or bang up that ATM.
If a man does not satisfy his wife's emotional needs , then even if she slavishly gives him sex every night IT WILL NEVER BE SATISFYING.
A woman has NEEDS just like a man,they are just different and a bit more complex.
Any man who wants regular sexual satisfaction from his wife must _FIRST SEEK TO SATISFY HER EMOTIONAL NEEDS_.
After all,that too is part of the marriage contract.

"............ I, ___, take you ___, to be my wedded (husband/wife), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health,* to love and to cherish*, 'til death do us part: according to God's holy ordinance, and thereto I pledge you my love and faithfulness.....

Excerpt from the Marriage contract. Husband's vow.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> OK,
> I haven't read the entire thread,so forgive me if I'm repeating what was said before.or if I get this entire argument wrong.
> 
> Marriage is a contract that includes sex.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

norajane said:


> Ok, you've lost me there. I believe in partnerships, not leaders and followers by default.


I'm with Nora on that one. We are both "leaders" in my house. We have different things that we lead in. I'm more in charge of the house and kids, and he brings in most of the money. But neither one of us is the Alpha. It's an equal partnership here.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

southern wife said:


> What men need to know if that sex starts with making love to the woman's mind. Not "hey honey, wanna have sex?" If he has to ask for sex, he'll get turned down!
> 
> If he's loving to her outside of the bedroom, touches her, compliments her.........then things just might heat up IN the bedroom.


Not in my house! Speak for yourself...

If my husband said "hey honey, wanna have sex?" I'd be so thrilled I'd probably pee my pants.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

norajane said:


> Ok, you've lost me there. I believe in partnerships, not leaders and followers by default.


Norajane: in every relationship someone leads and someone follows. that is just nature. I see it in dogs, horses and in people. in most modern marriages women work to become Alpha. they lead. they take their husband's testicles and they put them in a jar. Not saying you specifically do that but just as an observation I see all around me. 

Do you think men are not aware of this emasculation that is taking place? They are and it makes them resentful! and they feel like less and less of a man the longer it goes on and the worse he is treated. And what about us, the women? WE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER! We want our men to be MEN and the only way they can be MEN is to lead and be the alpha of our world. 

I have horses. I know most don't on this board. But in a horse herd there is ONE and only ONE Alpha. He controls the herd in every way. He makes them go where he wants to go. He makes them move out of the way when he wants to walk through. He eats their food. And on and on. He DEMANDS respect and reinforces his leadership every day. Paradoxically, it makes all of the other horses in the herd happier, more comfortable and satisfied knowing their place in the herd. If you take this away from the Alpha horse, he feels resentful and angry. Also the herd feels lost and someone MUST rise to the Alpha's place and take on his responsibilities or there is chaos and confusion. 

My life with my DH is so much better since I stopped fighting him every day for the Alpha role. That's his role and now he gets to enjoy it. He is rising to it more and more every day and our marriage has never been better. Meanwhile I don't have the responsibilities of being Alpha and I don't have to waste energy and emotion on trying to wrest it from him every day. Much like my horse herd, we now have settled into our respective roles and can spend more time living and less time jockeying for position.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

mina said:


> Norajane: in every relationship someone leads and someone follows. that is just nature. I see it in dogs, horses and in people. in most modern marriages women work to become Alpha. they lead. they take their husband's testicles and they put them in a jar. Not saying you specifically do that but just as an observation I see all around me.
> 
> Do you think men are not aware of this emasculation that is taking place? They are and it makes them resentful! and they feel like less and less of a man the longer it goes on and the worse he is treated. And what about us, the women? WE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER! We want our men to be MEN and the only way they can be MEN is to lead and be the alpha of our world.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving. 

However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage. 

A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Mt4,
> So far I think your views in this are balanced and healthy. The one area we differ is what to do if repeatedly rejected: If it was "me" I wouldn't go work on me. I would however ask her "what's up". Which brings us back to your earlier point which is that respect, commitment and communication matter more than sex does in a marriage. Because almost all the sexless marriages here are caused by breakdowns in THOSE areas. Faced with back to back rejections, I am not ordering a self improvement book on amazon. I am going to ask questions, and if I get stonewalled my response would be: I'm confused, you are rejecting me which is not normal for us, and now you are refusing to say why. That is not ok.
> 
> Imagine one day your H stops saying "I love you". Even when you say it first, he doesn't say it back. When you ask why, he won't answer.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

I think you're right. It is not going to do any good to fix "you" if you are not the problem, correct? When I was going through the resentment/anger issues, I was the one with the problem and I had to fix it. He encouraged me to get counseling and we had a lot of long talks. He stood by me, and eventually I started to come out of it. Honestly, I'm not sure what would have happened if I would have refused counseling or to talk to him at all. Fortunately, it did not get to the point of ultimatums with us. And I'm not sure if an ultimatum would have worked anyway, except to push me further away. I do know that if he would have approached me with "sex is his right as a married man," I probably would have closed down even more. 

I married a very unselfish man, and he stood by my side even when he wasn't getting sex. In his words, he made a commitment. Ultimately, I decided that he (and our family) was more important than the anger I was holding onto. 

_Please note: I'm not saying that the way my husband handled things was right. I'm not trying to push an agenda down anyone's throat. I'm just sharing past experiences in the off chance it could help someone else._


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Mina, that dynamic was at play big time in my marraige - I was never the most dominant person however my W still looked to me for leadership... eventually she got to the point where she began challenging and I think there was struggle for awhile, but she persisted and I think was stronger, then she put my nuts in a jar, broke me into submission but refused to lead me. Looking back I am kinda ashamed of myself for not recognizing my place in my marriage, and my life.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"But something seems to be missing here.
If the marriage is a contract and a wife is supposed to meet her husband's sexual needs,what about her needs?
What if her needs are not being met?"

I think the assumption is, in general, that the men are constantly running around, helping with dishes, running kids around, doing all of the things the women SAY they want them to do. They are trying like heck to figure out what the magic Rubick's cube combination is that will make her happy - I know me and DH went through this. No matter what hoops he jumped through (when I said "hey jump through this hoop and I will be happy!"), I'd just put up a new set of hoops. 

How can a man know if his woman's needs are being met if she's continuously erecting ridiculous obstacle courses for him to navigate?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

mina said:


> "But something seems to be missing here.
> If the marriage is a contract and a wife is supposed to meet her husband's sexual needs,what about her needs?
> What if her needs are not being met?"
> 
> ...


^^^^THIS^^^^

The problem is that there are some women out there that don't understand the REAL drivers of desire inside themselves. They speak what they think the want, and us dumb guys follow along like a lost puppy...so counter productive. While I think the whole woman's liberation thing has a lot of positives for both sexes, I think it works as a disadvantage in this respect.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> LOL Okay, but what do you do when you have a very adventurous 16-month-old who will not stay in his crib?? Sometimes I feel like we're playing hide and seek from the baby (and three other kids) to get some intimate time. One night we were enjoying each other and there comes the little tot sliding down the stairs with a big grin on his face! Sometimes I can hardly wait for them to get a little older!!!


Child proof the room and put a lock on the door. We did it with my youngest who liked to leave his room at odd hours. Granted he managed to get the keys to my van and try and start it at 6:00 a.m. one day with him and the dog inside, all at the age of two. So while my reasoning wasn't for sex, it worked out that way as well!



MEM11363 said:


> This isn't correct. A third party isn't going to get your wife to repect you. Only you can do that.


Not so, or we wouldn't have marriage counselors.

Sometimes you need an outside perspective to understand what your spouse is saying. The same message from a different platform can make all the difference.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

hubby said:


> ^^^^THIS^^^^
> 
> The problem is that there are some women out there that don't understand the REAL drivers of desire inside themselves. While I think the whole woman's liberation thing has a lot of positives for both sexes, I think it works as a disadvantage in this respect.


There has to be compromise. Women need to recognize that there will ALWAYS be some chore that does not get done. That can't be a reason to not have sex. It's not fair to hold your husband to an endless list of chores before he can have sex.

But if your husband doesn't help out, it's hard to feel sexual. Here's an example. Say hubby comes home from work and sits on the couch (and I'm not saying that he shouldn't as he has worked a long day) and you are busy in the kitchen fixing dinner and dealing with kids. You then clean up by yourself, bathe the kids by yourself, and put them to bed by yourself while he relaxes. By the time nine o'clock rolls around you are exhausted and ready to sit on the couch as well. It is hard to feel sexual when you are physically and mentally tired. You are much more likely to feel sexual if your husband has helped you. So wouldn't it make sense for H to help out if he wants enthusiastic sex from his partner? In this sense, work does contribute to sex. At least for this wife.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"They speak what they think the want, and us dumb guys follow along like a lost puppy."

Somewhere along the line the man needs to step up and be a man. I think that's what all women want and are waiting for. without being an [email protected]@hole about it, of course, but be the man ask for and expect respect and find a way for your W to appreciate what you bring to the table. 

I think the Alpha model or Captain/First Officer model works. Like I said I used it in my relationship by just one day taking on the First Officer role and my DH stepped nicely (without knowing what I was doing, of course, acquiescing the role) and smoothly into it. 

It doesn't mean he doesn't take out the garbage when I ask him. It does mean when I am a nasty wench and yell at him for borrowing my tools even though he put them back right where they belong (like I asked him to do millions of times) he gets to call me on my BS.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

momtwo4 said:


> There has to be compromise. Women need to recognize that there will ALWAYS be some chore that does not get done. That can't be a reason to not have sex. It's not fair to hold your husband to an endless list of chores before he can have sex.
> 
> But if your husband doesn't help out, it's hard to feel sexual. Here's an example. Say hubby comes home from work and sits on the couch (and I'm not saying that he shouldn't as he has worked a long day) and you are busy in the kitchen fixing dinner and dealing with kids. You then clean up by yourself, bathe the kids by yourself, and put them to bed by yourself while he relaxes. By the time nine o'clock rolls around you are exhausted and ready to sit on the couch as well. It is hard to feel sexual when you are physically and mentally tired. You are much more likely to feel sexual if your husband has helped you. So wouldn't it make sense for H to help out if he wants enthusiastic sex from his partner? In this sense, work does contribute to sex. At least for this wife.


Totally understand that works for some wives.

For me I got no sex, and:

I worked a high strees, high paying job 60hrs a week (wife is SAHM)
I did all the grocery shopping before I got home
I picked up flowers at least once a week
I made the kids dinner
I got them dressed for bed, brushed their teeth, and put them to bed
I was affectionate as I could be while trying to push out the pain from blue balls
I was 100% faithful
I took her out on dates
I was a great father
I periodically asked what her needs were (they were a moving target but I always prioritized and met them)

It took me 11 years to figure out I was doing things all wrong and I actually take the responsibility that the things I did above were bad and it was my fault. I should have been a Man, the Man I was when I first met her. Now, our relationship has never been stronger. Another thing we learned, I/we will teach our 3 boys to be Men by leading by example so they don't make the same mistake I did (no one ever taught us these rules).


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Not in my house! Speak for yourself...
> 
> If my husband said "hey honey, wanna have sex?" I'd be so thrilled I'd probably pee my pants.


I'm an adult, if I want something, I will ask for it, I will not play games, I will not beat around the bush (hahaha), when I want to have sex, I have no problem asking for, I feel no shame in my sexuality. 
Just as my husband has no issue asking me either.
Of course most of the time for us, asking involves less words & more actions. 

We both work highly stressful jobs, long hours, 13+ hours a day, have pets to care for, a lot of the time we're too tired to even eat dinner, but we make the time to be intimate & have sex.
It could be a 5 min quickie or it could closer to an hour, but we make the time during the week to have sex, to connect with one another.
The wknds are a whole other story, we spend a good portion of our time in bed. 
We both have made our sexual health together a priority in our marriage, personally I'd much rather have an orgasm than sleep an extra 30 mins. 
Hell, you can sleep when you're dead.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> :iagree:
> Personally I'd much rather go have sex then wash the dishes or do laundry.
> I know I'm happy & relaxed after sex, as is the husband.
> Hmm, happy & relaxed, or cranky & pissy?
> I know which choice I'd make.


Me too, Phoenix, me too. But unfortunately, I still have to do the dishes and laundry in my house. If dishes and laundry don't get done, then we are BOTH cranky and pissy. DH doesn't like a dirty house and neither do I. In an ideal world, I could let the dishes sit in the sink overnight all the time while we have sex. But someone still has to do the chores, and I appreciate it (and feel more sexy) when DH helps me.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

hubby said:


> Totally understand that works for some wives.
> 
> For me I got no sex, and:
> 
> ...


What? Are you saying being faithful and a good father and helping with your kids' dinner and being affectionate yourself is wrong?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

norajane said:


> What? Are you saying being faithful and a good father and helping with your kids' dinner and being affectionate yourself is wrong?


None of them in an of themselves are wrong when you have a spouse who UNDERSTANDS and meets your needs. By doing ALL these things while at the same time not getting any respect or sex, I was enabling a vicious downward spiral of:

Wife not _feeling _loved > less sex
Husband doing more things that he _thinks _makes wife _feel _loved >
Wife not _feeling _loved more and losing respect > even less sex
Husband doing more things that he _thinks _makes wife _feel _loved > no sex


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

hubby said:


> None of them in an of themselves are wrong when you have a spouse who UNDERSTANDS and meets your needs. I was enabling a vicious downward spiral of:
> 
> Wife not _feeling _loved > less sex
> Husband doing more things that he _thinks _makes wife _feel _loved >
> ...


So what are you doing differently now that has stopped this spiral which started with her not feeling loved? Does she feel more loved now?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anyone who says doing the dishes and cleaning/cooking will put a woman in the mood is lying. Women sometimes say this is what they want, but the truth is these women don't really know what they want. Being a butler does not build long term attraction or respect. 

Hubby knows this now. He saw first hand what actually works. So did I.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

norajane said:


> So what are you doing differently now that has stopped this spiral which started with her not feeling loved? Does she feel more loved now?


First I had to earn her respect, then she was more attracted to me, then we had more sex, now I just do the things I want to do and don't ask for permission. Much of the things I want to do are included in the list above, but when I need a break, I take a break. My wife respects and appreciates that I know what I want and that I am Man enough to make it happen. She also knows that ultimately I would die for her, that the only thing important to me are first her and second our kids...everything else in life is a rounding error.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Anyone who says doing the dishes and cleaning/cooking will put a woman in the mood is lying. Women sometimes say this is what they want, but the truth is these women don't really know what they want. Being a butler does not build long term attraction or respect.
> 
> Hubby knows this now. He saw first hand what actually works. So did I.


Why are you a "butler" if you help your wife? And I can tell you that _I'm _ not lying. If I have a huge amount of work around the house that my husband is not willing to help me with, that is a big turn-off to me.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

momtwo4 said:


> Why are you a "butler" if you help your wife? And I can tell you that _I'm _ not lying. If I have a huge amount of work around the house that my husband is not willing to help me with, that is a big turn-off to me.


Sure, the problem is if for some reason the sex dies down and he thinks doing the dishes gets you wet, he will likely do them all the time, _even when there are more important things to do for him_. You then lose respect for him quickly and the sex all but dries up. Now I know that doing the dishes will not literally soak your panties, but I will tell you Mr. Fix It connects a solid line from dishes to sex if he hears that is what you "need" him to do. Add on top of that the whining and begging us less informed boys tend to do when we don't get our sexual fix, you have one resentful wife who has no idea why she is feeling that way.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't think so. I think him sitting on the couch is a turn off to you. And I think helping you, if you are directing him to, would also be a turn off. Now if he's taking on a leadership role in the kitchen that's different. Very different. 

Hey I like to cook. And will also clean when I'm done. But when I'm in the kitchen I'm in charge. That's the difference.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

hubby said:


> Sure, the problem is if for some reason the sex dies down and he thinks doing the dishes gets you wet, he will likely do them all the time, _even when there are more important things to do for him_. You then lose respect for him quickly and the sex all but dries up.


Well, if washing the dishes and helping with the kids makes my husband a butler, then I am the ultimate MAID! LOL


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Remember, butlers get told what to do.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't think so. I think him sitting on the couch is a turn off to you. And I think helping you, *if you are directing him to*, would also be a turn off. Now if he's taking on a leadership role in the kitchen that's different. Very different.
> 
> Hey I like to cook. And will also clean when I'm done. But when I'm in the kitchen I'm in charge. That's the difference.


yes, this makes ALL the difference - when I broke, I was just saying "tell me what to do" I was waiting for a command, and I would have gladly done it, but she was just so bitter that I couldn't figure this out for myself.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

butler is the perfect analogy - when you can't distinguish a H from a butler, there is no respect... in fact you may have more respect for a butler because that is the role you hired him for, when an H demotes himself to butler, who is supposed to be the "man of the house"?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't think so. I think him sitting on the couch is a turn off to you. And I think helping you, if you are directing him to, would also be a turn off. Now if he's taking on a leadership role in the kitchen that's different. Very different.
> 
> Hey I like to cook. And will also clean when I'm done. But when I'm in the kitchen I'm in charge. That's the difference.


Amen...and hey, if you have a certain way you like to have your cloths folded or dishes placed in the sink...well then be my guest and do them yourself. I will not stand in your way, just don't b1tch to me that I need to _learn _to do it the _right _way. A lot of guys will fall prey to that double bind and try (and fail) to do things her way, kills the respect.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Remember, butlers get told what to do.


Good point. I think this is where husbands can feel belittled if wives are constantly bossing them around and telling them how to wipe the table, take care of the kids, etc...

It's about respect from both sides. But I don't think there is anything wrong with respectfully asking your husband if he can help. Better yet is him seeing that I have had a hard day and stepping forward of his OWN accord to help me. That DOES make my heart flutter, and no, I'm not lying.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Every man should know his wife.
Any man who lets his wife put him to " jump through hoops" etc. in order to get laid DESERVES TO BE REJECTED.
This is the woman you pursued for months sometimes even years before she said " I do ." You are the LEADER of the house and you don't know what your wife needs?
Its not just about buying her a dozen roses....
Its about giving her love in the way she needs to be loved.
Humans are unique as they are complex.
Sometimes a woman's emotions are all over the place,they b!tch at you for nothing at all.What is important at a time like that is the way you respond to her b!tchiness. Will you give in to her every whim and fancy or would you be a MAN dechiper the confusion ,and give her what she needs?

Recently my wife tried something on me. sometimes she goes on cruises etc with a group of girlfriends.There is one of them who is very close to her and me.I trust that one.She is non toxic and has inspired my wife a lot in the past. So Ias long as Ms X is going ,I'm ok with my wifey going.
Recently there was another vacation " the girls" wanted to go on.
This place is a very nice popular tourist destination. Beautiful beaches , nice night life etc. But plenty of " gigilo beach boys."
Wifey wants to go. She decides to ask me...
Her: " Hon, I know you might not like this idea , but I want to go visit ............ island with the girls."
Me: "But I have no problem that! Why would you think I might not like the idea?"
Her: "Because Ms X cannot come with us. She's travelling to the England instead."
Me:" Well then I have DO a problem with that..."
She: " But I can take care of myself! Blah , Blah, Blah......"
An she storms out of the bedroom.
Gives me the " silent treatment " for the rest of the evening.
Next morning I decide to talk with her.
Me: " Why do you want to go to this place so badly?"
Her:" Because it will be so much fun and I've always wanted to go there...Beside I can pay for it myself."
Me:" But we had an understanding about you travelling without me. That is that Ms. X should be around in case of anything. You know how things gets sometimes..."
Her: " But I'm not planning on doing anything wrong!"
Me: " I know that! But you don't know what the rest of them planning...."
[Silence for a few minutes.]
Me:" Ok, hear what, how about if I go with you all?"
Her: " I will love it if you come! But then you will be the only guy among us women and you will get bored."
Me:" How about if you and me go at the end of teh summer holidays?"
Her:" Really? Of course!"
Me: " Ok then,I will make the reservations book the tickets."

Later on that night in bed she tells me she is sorry for throwing a tantrum and being unreasonable.
She tells me thanks for standing up like a man.She knew in the back of her mind that what I was saying was true, but she just wanted to get " her way."
I know that she is headstrong at times. But I have developed an effective way of dealing with it that works, without the bitter resentment on either side.
She is MY wife.
It is my duty to know her at least that much.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You guys just made me realize something. I should never have married my last wife. I had little desire for casual constant sex with her. She is a beautiful woman. I just did not feel that way with her. I think it was because I need a woman with a different body type. One I don't have a ghost of a chance in getting. First wife I just wanted to have sex with. Didn't care how, when or where. What the hell happened to me? Maybe age? Some of the crap 2nd wife wanted to do wasn't even a turn on! I thought, "where did she get this stuff?" She was around quite a bit more than me too! Must have been weirdos and quickies. I have heard her new beau say, "eh, it's okay." So, maybe it wasn't me? Maybe it was? I know some of it was definitely me. Good thread. Some of it comes off when reading as some people have quite an attitude. But, very informative. Thank you.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Caribbean man, I get what you say about the fitness testing... but in your example of Ms X, you are demonstrating clearly that you trust Ms X more than your own W. To me that almost seems manipulative, and patronizing, it belittles your W around this other woman you have more trust in.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

momtwo4 said:


> Good point. I think this is where husbands can feel belittled if wives are constantly bossing them around and telling them how to wipe the table, take care of the kids, etc...
> 
> It's about respect from both sides. But I don't think there is anything wrong with respectfully asking your husband if he can help. Better yet is him seeing that I have had a hard day and stepping forward of his OWN accord to help me. That DOES make my heart flutter, and no, I'm not lying.


Agreed.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't know I have a friend my DH loves and he just feels totally better when I am with her if we are going out of town on a girls thing (mostly horse shows and we do take the kids, too.)

Because he knows her values align with ours and she won't "go nuts" and do things she shouldn't ... which means I don't get into compromising positions, yada yada yada. 

I get that. I am with CM on that one.


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## Loves2hard (Jun 27, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> :iagree:
> A-flipping-men!
> I think too many women forget that the very man they married made it possible for them to have the very life/family that they are putting before their husbands.
> Without the husband, would they still have the life they have?
> ...


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## Loves2hard (Jun 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> OK,
> I haven't read the entire thread,so forgive me if I'm repeating what was said before.or if I get this entire argument wrong.
> 
> Marriage is a contract that includes sex.
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Lon said:


> Caribbean man, I get what you say about the fitness testing... but in your example of Ms X, you are demonstrating clearly that you trust Ms X more than your own W. To me that almost seems manipulative, and patronizing, it belittles your W around this other woman you have more trust in.




Yes it might appear that way to the _outside observer._
But I KNOW MY WIFE.
She is not a leader among that group of ladies. Ms. X is the leader.
One or two in that group are a bit toxic.Bad relationships,low morals.
So if they go to that vacation,and they decide to " get their groove on" in a particular beach club / disco, my wife would be isolated with no support.
She takes a couple of drinks,loses her inhibitions and problems start right there.
A real friend is one who tells you to do the right thing even though everybody else is doing otherwise.
Ms. X is such a friend. She is a FAMILY FRIEND.
Not just a " drinking / good times " friend. She has helped us through rough times , and vice versa.
She RESPECTS our marriage.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

When I belonged to a mommy message board, soooo many women griped about their husbands and what they don't do. More specifically, what they don't do RIGHT. :scratchhead: Eh? They didn't change the baby right, they didn't vacuum right, they didn't do laundry right.

Holy crap! Who cares if it's "right" (read: YOUR WAY)...it's GETTING DONE. Stfu. And I told them so....and I was given so many excuses how I just 'don't know'. Yea, I do know. I know my husband does things DIFFERENTLY than I do, but it's not wrong. Just let your husband do what he does and appreciate that he did it...just as you do what you do and he appreciates it. It doesn't have to be YOUR way.

but what happened over the years is that their husbands got SICK of being hen-pecked about everything they did, and micromanaged for every moment they were awake, that they STOPPED doing anything at all...and then the woman had total husband-bashing-threads. Damn. Don't even talk to them about sex...They sounded like their husbands' MOTHERS! "Well, if he'd just do things right, then I'd have sex..." I quit that board quickly after that. gross.

If you think he's such an idiot, why did you marry him?! That's a question I always wanted to ask, but didn't because I didn't want to be banned from the board (I did get a lot of help for my baby and met my best friend on it too!).

But yea, I didn't get married to a child. I got married to a man. He does what he does, I do what I do. We were both single and living on our own when we met (each for 7 years) and I looked to make sure he had the qualities I desired (responsibility, man of his word, etc). If I had to go around nitpicking everything my husband was doing, omg. What a drag. I know i wouldn't want to shag me.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

I used to watch a show called "that girl" when I was a kid. I liked her, too.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mina said:


> I used to watch a show called "that girl" when I was a kid. I liked her, too.


Love that show!  And thanks.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

that_girl said:


> When I belonged to a mommy message board, soooo many women griped about their husbands and what they don't do. More specifically, what they don't do RIGHT. :scratchhead: Eh? They didn't change the baby right, they didn't vacuum right, they didn't do laundry right.
> 
> Holy crap! Who cares if it's "right" (read: YOUR WAY)...it's GETTING DONE. Stfu. And I told them so....and I was given so many excuses how I just 'don't know'. Yea, I do know. I know my husband does things DIFFERENTLY than I do, but it's not wrong. Just let your husband do what he does and appreciate that he did it...just as you do what you do and he appreciates it. It doesn't have to be YOUR way.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree that wives shouldn't nitpick their husbands or criticize them for what they are doing wrong when they are putting forth an effort to help. Who would ever want to help when they are constantly criticized?! 

I do think that both husbands and wives can feel SO taken for granted, and this impacts sex sometimes. My Love Language is Acts of Service and Words of Affirmation. I gave up my career out of grad school to stay home and take care ( I only work part-time from home) of our four young children. I'm so grateful that my husband has a good job and that he works so hard to support us. It's a lot on his shoulders. 

But I also get really burned out (sometimes I even feel dizzy with exhaustion and all the fighting and crying and pooping etc...hence my sometimes redundant "dull" posts). I need to hear from my husband that he appreciates what I do and that I am doing an awesome job with our kids. I need to see him put forth an effort to help me when I'm tired. One of the sweetest things he has ever done is give me a hug and say "I'll take over from here. You get out of the house and take a break." I love him for this. And you bet I want to have sex more when I feel appreciated.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I am the opposite of a wuss, but this post brought tears to my eyes. I have never loved any woman as much as I love my wife. And the constant physical rejection has changed the person I am....in a negative way.
> 
> I'm through bartering for sex by seducing her mind. I'm through cleaning bathrooms, dishes, laundry etc on top of my "regular" guy chores just to have a sliver of intimacy. I know there are woman out there that would want me. I know it. I'm not charity and honestly, F her for doing this to me.


For this alone this thread was worth creating.

Thank you for sharing. And I am glad you're finally done putting up with this bull****!

:toast:


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

that_girl said:


> When I belonged to a mommy message board, soooo many women griped about their husbands and what they don't do. More specifically, what they don't do RIGHT. :scratchhead: Eh? They didn't change the baby right, they didn't vacuum right, they didn't do laundry right.
> 
> Holy crap! Who cares if it's "right" (read: YOUR WAY)...it's GETTING DONE. Stfu. And I told them so....and I was given so many excuses how I just 'don't know'. Yea, I do know. I know my husband does things DIFFERENTLY than I do, but it's not wrong. Just let your husband do what he does and appreciate that he did it...just as you do what you do and he appreciates it. It doesn't have to be YOUR way.
> 
> but what happened over the years is that their husbands got SICK of being hen-pecked about everything they did, and micromanaged for every moment they were awake, that they STOPPED doing anything at all...and then the woman had total husband-bashing-threads. Damn. Don't even talk to them about sex...They sounded like their husbands' MOTHERS! "Well, if he'd just do things right, then I'd have sex..." I quit that board quickly after that. gross.


Yes, I see this with some women too. They delegate something to their spouse but they also want it done exactly their way. If you delegate, give the person some freedom to do it so long as they get it done safely. I wouldn't like it if my spouse delegated something to me then micromanaged me. If that's the case then do it yourself!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> Yes, I see this with some women too. They delegate something to their spouse but they also want it done exactly their way. If you delegate, give the person some freedom to do it so long as they get it done safely. I wouldn't like it if my spouse delegated something to me then micromanaged me. If that's the case then do it yourself!


Ya. If I wanted that, I'd move back home with my mother  :nono: :rofl:.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

come on baby its been awhile ........I'll rub your feet! how about a back rub? would you like a bowl of ice cream...with cherries on top!

F you then...... I'm going in the bed room and rubbing one out thinking about the cute red head thats been flirting with me all week at work! shes got the nicest smile.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Lol


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> come on baby its been awhile ........I'll rub your feet! how about a back rub? would you like a bowl of ice cream...with cherries on top!
> 
> F you then...... I'm going in the bed room and rubbing one out thinking about the cute red head thats been flirting with me all week at work! shes got the nicest smile.


And wife probably thinks _"Go ahead. I won't be missing you." _ 

It's sad from both perspectives.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

i agree

that is why i am a big advocate of divorce for like 90% of people! because they are in essence always married to someone who they do not truly get a long with. 

Having to "work" for sex is ridiculous. It should come naturally 

now with that said there are things i do that will usually get me more sex. When i plan dates or we on trips or when i give her a massage and a foot massage i seem to get more sex as she is more in the mood.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> Ok, you've lost me there. I believe in partnerships, not leaders and followers by default.


I don't think it matters whether somebody "believes" in leadership or not. Wherever there are two, or more, human beings gathered, somebody will always emerge as a leader. In some situations it is obvious, and in others more subtle. But human beings always fall into hierarchical structures, by our very nature.

Leadership does not suggest inequality. 

Leadership does not suggest that the leader leads at all times in all things.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I think it's important to note that the OP is purposefully gender neutral.

There are a lot of sexually frustrated ladies out here dealing with husbands who are not sexing them often, if at all.

Sometimes I think that can be a worse place to be in because women in most societies are conditioned to think of sex as a lesser need for them than it is a man. So a sex starved woman might not feel her sexual hunger and needs are as important as a man, or might not feel the freedom to express that she desperately needs her spouse to make love to her the way a man does.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think it's important to note that the OP is purposefully gender neutral.
> 
> There are a lot of sexually frustrated ladies out here dealing with husbands who are not sexing them often, if at all.
> 
> Sometimes I think that can be a worst place to be in because women in most societies are conditioned to think of sex as a lesser need for them than it is a man. So a sex starved woman might not feel her sexual hunger and needs are as important as a man, or might not feel the freedom to express that she desperately needs her spouse to make love to her the way a man does.


:iagree:

While I can't personally relate as a woman, this is a very insightful post.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> But if your husband doesn't help out, it's hard to feel sexual. Here's an example. Say hubby comes home from work and sits on the couch (and I'm not saying that he shouldn't as he has worked a long day) and you are busy in the kitchen fixing dinner and dealing with kids. You then clean up by yourself, bathe the kids by yourself, and put them to bed by yourself while he relaxes. By the time nine o'clock rolls around you are exhausted and ready to sit on the couch as well. It is hard to feel sexual when you are physically and mentally tired. You are much more likely to feel sexual if your husband has helped you. So wouldn't it make sense for H to help out if he wants enthusiastic sex from his partner? In this sense, work does contribute to sex. At least for this wife.


I honestly believe a lot of people, male and female, need to stop waiting around to "feel sexual". Sex needn't always be initiated from a "feeling". Sex can be sparked off from beginning to do sexual things and then allowing the "feelings" to follow the act.

People don't often "feel" like doing a lot of things, but they do them anyway. Sex should be no different.

There are times when I want some sex, and my wife doesn't "feel" like it. Sometimes I let it be, but sometimes I press in and if she sees I really need that connection, that release and ecstasy, she'll make love with me. The "feeling" ALWAYS follows. 

And guess what? This works both ways. My wife and I don't always feel like having sex at the same time. There are plenty of times when she's hungry for me, and I'm not in the mood. Sometimes I'll say no, but usually eventually I'll buckle in. I know she's there waiting, and she needs to taste me, taste us together. And the "feeling" again ALWAYS follows.

Sex is a physical AND spiritual/emotional action. It can be entered into sometimes from a place of "feeling", but it also likewise can be initiated from a purely physical stand point. If I'm not in the mood, but my wife plops my penis in her mouth, I sure am going to get in the mood! I in turn know that even if my wife doesn't "feel" like it, foundling her nipples will get her from 0 to 180 in record time. When the sex is over, and done with, we'll both have experienced a great time and won't give a damn whether it started from "feelings" or manually.

If two people wait around constantly for their desire for sex to line up at the same time, then that severely diminishes the chances of them having more frequent sex. 

Like the Nike commercial says, just do it!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> And wife probably thinks _"Go ahead. I won't be missing you." _
> 
> It's sad from both perspectives.


but it seem like one is trying while the other is advioding instead of trying!


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I honestly believe a lot of people, male and female, need to stop waiting around to "feel sexual". Sex needn't always be initiated from a "feeling". Sex can be sparked off from beginning to do sexual things and then allowing the "feelings" to follow the act.
> 
> People don't often "feel" like doing a lot of things, but they do them anyway. Sex should be no different.
> 
> ...


Personally, I do (quite often) "just do it." I'm definitely the more LD spouse though, and I'm tired more often than not. I had four kids in six years--I think that's a pretty good reason to feel tired and to need help and support. If I'm not in the mood to start with, I often get in the mood when I'm doing it. And I DO feel good afterwards. 

At the same time, it goes a long way when DH helps in the evenings. Like, if I'm going to enthusiastically move my body during sex, _I_ could use a little downtime on the couch before we make love. We haven't talked about this outright, but I know he understands. It works for us. There is a mental part of sex for me. I honestly wish it wasn't that way. But when I'm stressed and exhausted, sex is the last thing on my mind.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

My finger is getting sore from liking all of Mina's posts. It's like she's in my head...it's impressive and creepy all at the same time.

It's not popular opinion but I completely agree with the captain - commander dynamic in the marriage. My wife and I are both alpha personalities (which ironically attracted me to her) but somebody MUST defer or it's a mess.

The hoops....oh Lord the hoops. Playing point guard my first year of university I never had to make as many hoops as this woman expects. After a while you get hip to the game and stop doing the tricks cause you know you're not gonna get the treat.

And she's also right in saying at some point a man just has to stand up and be a man without being an ahole. That's where I veer off course. My darn anger gets the best of me and sometimes I yell. Counter productive but I've always been a short fuse.

This is a good dialogue though getting multiple perspectives. Dont stop contributing, especially the women. I believe that HD LD dynamics are different based on if the LD is male or female. There are different motivations.

Personally, I never had a lot of experience with women before I got married so I'm learning a lot by reading here. (yes..pathetic lol).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> As a former LD woman,I have to admit the more my ex chased me for sex the more repulsed I became by him.On the outside we appeared sexually satiated and happy.On the inside,it was never enough for him.We did it a few times a week and when we weren't doing it he was panting after me like a rabid dog begging me for something anything...a hj,a bj,baby just touch it at least...UGH. I wanted to throw up watching him do that.
> 
> I hope i don't get bashed for this!  This is JUST my opinion and my own personal experience.


Well, don't take this as a bash, but...

Why not step up your level of sexual provision to meet his need? Why generate the vicious cycle of you don't provide enough, then he gets desperate, then your desire is diminished further? Or, was your expectation that he make do?

I am not saying you are wrong to feel or act as you did. But it seems you risked him look elsewhere for his sexual fulfillment. The LD typically would not tolerate their HD spouses turning to cheating or porn. I am genuinely curious as to why you would not cheerfully meet his need, thus eliminating the begging you loathed, even if you were not horny?

This flows nicely into my point that enough sex to reasonably satisfy the HD spouse needs to be seen as important to the marriage (not just to the HD) and prioritized accordingly. If not, you have the destructive dynamic you just described. Worse, there are people so averse to sex they adopt an adolescent's "if you love me you will wait" mindset, define sexual desire as the antithesis of love, and strive to minimize the level of activity.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Okay, my love language is "acts of service." So is it then my RIGHT (as you say) to have my husband lovingly do the dishes, change my baby's poopy diaper, and do other tasks on a regular basis? Am I entitled to that?


The problem with this analogy goes to the "substitutability" issue discussed earlier. While I think your husband should do those if you are putting in just as much effort as you expect, you are missing the point. You or him could hire someone else to do most of that, thereby relieving you of the burden.

His right to expect sex comes from the implied expectations of marriage. You probably would not tolerate having him screw someone else weekly. As he has a sexual need and you are his only legitimate outlet, you voluntarily assume that responsiblity and grant him that right by marrying him.

Stated differently, you don't have a right to deny him fulfillment of a basic need. The basic expectation of marriage is that the spouses will be monogamous and meet that need for each other. Now, if you made it clear to your H beforehand that sex would not be a part of your marriage, that's a different story. Otherwise... "batter up".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Of course there are other reasons.
> 
> But surely you do know that readily available, consistent, regular sex is one of the main reasons a lot of men (and some women) marry, right?


Absolutely!

Said differently, for a person with a decent sex drive, knowing that readily available, consistent sex was not forthcoming would be an absolute deal-breaker.

I loved my ex dearly, but I knew what my needs were and did my best to ensure they would be met before accepting her marriage proposal. If she had told me honestly how little she desired me sexually, I would never have married her - not even if she were supermodel hot and wealthy.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> At the same time, I also see other things besides sex that bring us close as well. And I don't think I can honestly say that I believe sex is the most important aspect of a relationship as you seem to imply.


No one is saying that sex is the single most important aspect of marriage. It more likely is among a handful of aspects that are equally important like basic respect, willingness to compromise, etc. None is supreme, but the lack of any of them is enough to end a marriage.

Rather than argue over which is most important, it's more productive to ask whether a marriage can survive in its absence. IOW, can a marriage survive if one spouse's sexual needs are constantly neglected?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Lon said:


> Jaquen, I am glad then it is working for you... if you both have the same philosophy that is a big advantage, for those that don't have the same philosophy, like most heterosexual couples, I thing what it important is not having the same philosophy, rather they simply "click", that the differences in the sexes mesh into something that works. Chemistry/Compatibility, most people have a mix of each, I'd think your marriage must have a LOT of both (or atleast compatibility from what you are saying).


I agree, and will offer a simple formula for achieving this. Simply provide your spouse with what they need. If your husband needs sex, don't complain about it being too often, or the wrong kind, or whatever - just provide. If your wife wants a few hours per week where you go for a walk or talk or whatever, just do it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DTO said:


> The problem with this analogy goes to the "substitutability" issue discussed earlier. While I think your husband should do those if you are putting in just as much effort as you expect, you are missing the point. You or him could hire someone else to do most of that, thereby relieving you of the burden.
> 
> His right to expect sex comes from the implied expectations of marriage. You probably would not tolerate having him screw someone else weekly. As he has a sexual need and you are his only legitimate outlet, you voluntarily assume that responsiblity and grant him that right by marrying him.
> 
> *Stated differently, you don't have a right to deny him fulfillment of a basic need. The basic expectation of marriage is that the spouses will be monogamous and meet that need for each other. Now, if you made it clear to your H beforehand that sex would not be a part of your marriage, that's a different story. Otherwise... "batter up". *




Somehow I cannot agree with that logic.
Frankly speaking I don't think people still " get married for sex."
If that was accurate then all LD people would be single and unwed.
People get married for all different sorts of reasons. At the time of marriage these reasons are called " NEEDS."
What is expected is that each one would fulfill each others NEEDS. As time elapses and situations change,NEEDS evolve.

Her emotional NEEDS as an 16 year old were different to when she was 5 yrs , didn't have breast ,hips and a ton load of guys trying to get into her pants. So how can she have the same emotional NEEDS 5 yrs after marriage,as when you all were just married?
People change,that's why the vows state : " Till death do us part..."
I have been married 17 years,and my wife's need has evolved in many ways.
Before she was a shy, timid girl in bed,now she is a growling tiger , and demand her sex how and when she wants it.
I created that. I was her first and only.
It didn't happen overnight,I met her emotional NEEDS,whilst at t he same time helping her understand appreciate her sexuality.I got inside of he BODY
[ vagina ] and her SOUL [ Emotions ]
That is the duty of a MAN.
That's why men have an external organ called a penis and the woman's vagina is internal.
A soft penis is of no use to a woman,just like a " nice guy aka soft man" is not sexually appealing to a wife.

She is not having sex with you because SHE IS NO LONGER SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO YOU.
If you want sex from her then DEAL WITH THE REAL ISSUE THAT'S KILLING THE ATTRACTION.
If you think its too much ,then stop whining and just divorce her.
It takes work to build and maintain a marriage.

Sex and emotional intimacy is not an automatic,alienable right ,that is transferred to the man at marriage.
Rather it is something that is tangible and shared between two people for the MUTUAL benefit of each other and the relationship.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Sex and emotional intimacy is not an automatic,alienable right ,that is transferred to the man at marriage.
> Rather it is something that is tangible and shared between two people for the MUTUAL benefit of each other and the relationship.


:iagree::iagree: Exactly.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

curious0 said:


> So what is said for the Women that Have a career and could have the same life that they now without there husband??
> 
> Having my husband in my life is icing on the cake. But I am very much capable of taking care of myself.


You misunderstand my statement, it's not about the finances, it's about the life built together with the husband.
If you have kids, they sure as hell didn't magically appear by themselves.
If you don't have kids, you still have a family with your spouse, we don't have kids, but we're still very much a family, albeit a small one. 
When you're married, you have a different life that you wouldn't have when you're single.
If you don't want that kind of life, then don't get married.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amp,
I have always believed their is a 6th love langauge: sacrifice

I don't agree with the author of the book that sacrifice is an act of service. It isn't. It's different. 

When my W wanted 3 kids and I wanted 2 - the act of procreation I agreed to was not an act of service, it was an agreement to do what she wanted because it was important to her. I am glad we did and love D2 - and always have. 

Similarly for your W - the concept of submission - hey this is not female to male - this is human to human - was based on how important you felt this was. Just as - in all seriousness I submitted to my W's need to procreate more than I would have chose to. 

Sacrifice is a very powerful love language. It is real. It is distinct. It often shows a tremendous depth of feeling for the other person. 

You set a high bar Amp. Truly. 





Amplexor said:


> Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving.
> 
> However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage.
> 
> A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,
I think perhaps it is best to look at this from both sides - juxtaposed: 

Woman: I like to receive acts of service. They make me feel loved. When I ask my H to do something, and he does a good job and is clearly happy to do something that makes me feel loved - that is a big deal. This is different than hiring someone as that is abstract and perhaps could seem as if my H: 
- does not see this as a way to show me love and instead
- sees it as a problem that he can make "go away" by throwing money at it

I am not suggesting this is fair - I am saying it is a "common" reaction. 

H: I like sex. I am not allowed to have it with anyone else. You aren't giving me enough so I am going to:
- Chase you 
- Do an ever increasing number of ridiculous things to try to get you to have sex with me 
- Believe your ever more ludicrous excuses, complaints and outright deceptions on this topic because - I WANT to believe them 
- Tolerate a level of rejection that is degrading and humiliating
- Have children with you - despite all your insincere statements and broken promises
- Have more children with you
- Allow you to morph into a total bltch - maybe allow isn't the right word - REWARD you for doing so by putting ever more effort into getting less and less sex

Flooded with desire, it isn't obvious that this behavior:
- destroys respect and with it any notion of reciprocity
- communicates that YOU believe you really don't deserve to be her partner
- demonstrates a lack of determination that she treat you even close to the way she DEMANDS you treat her

Her perception of this can be summarized as: She has chosen A partner who is weak/needy and easily intimidated. A partner who will trade a lot of self respect for a small amount of sex. 

Weakness, fear and a lack of self respect may be the single biggest factors in creating sexual aversion in a woman. 

Once that happens - the emotional level of effort required for her to have sex can only be compared to washing dishes/house work - when the housework being requested is creating an abusive imbalance in total level of effort in the marriage. 





DTO said:


> Well, don't take this as a bash, but...
> 
> Why not step up your level of sexual provision to meet his need? Why generate the vicious cycle of you don't provide enough, then he gets desperate, then your desire is diminished further? Or, was your expectation that he make do?
> 
> ...


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Speaking personally, my resentment grows and my libido drops, breeding deeper resentment.
> 
> Logically, I agree with the OP. Hoop jumping for a little bit of sex is silly but the topic actually made me think a little bit about doing nice things and correlating it to my own drive, mentally and physically.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree: I completely agree. You just said what I have been trying to say for about four posts.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

From many of the posts in this thread, I can see exactly why the OP posted this thread in the first place.
It's a wonder that people even manage to have sex at all with all the "I need this in order to want to have sex" issues going on.
I've never, ever needed anything more than the desire to have sex, my libido isn't tied into my husband doing chores or whatever mind game is needed, it's tied into my husband, period. 
I had sex with other men prior to meeting my husband, I also didn't need them to provide services in order to get me in the mood, so why would I expect my husband to do that just to get me to have sex with him?
Too much pressure, too much wheeling & dealing, too much thinking about something that should be a natural response to the chemistry between two people.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Frankly speaking I don't think people still "get married for sex." If that was accurate then all LD people would be single and unwed.
> 
> People get married for all different sorts of reasons. At the time of marriage these reasons are called "NEEDS." What is expected is that each one would fulfill each others NEEDS. As time elapses and situations change,NEEDS evolve.
> 
> ...


Well, to address this in order:

I never said I married for sex. When my future wife came around I was hitting my stride and could have gotten plenty. I married because I loved her romantically and, since she proposed to me, believed she felt the same way.

Yes, people expect to get their needs met (sexual or otherwise) in marriage. I knew my ex would not tolerate cheating, so I would be dependent on her for sex. We had the conversation of "if I am to commit for life to you, this is what I need from you to make it worthwhile".

As far as LD people go, I will simply state my opinion it is a bad idea to marry someone to whom you are not sexually attracted.

Whether needs evolve or not is irrelevant. The standard is still how committed you are to meeting your spouse's needs as they are. I do think that sometimes people anticipate an evolution that does not happen, then act on the way _they wish things were_rather than on _how things actually are_. I have seen many times where a LD spouse says "we're too old for that" or "I thought your sexual need was just a phase".

Before you get on your high horse about how you transformed your wife and how the rest of us could do the same, you need to realize something. You are more fortunate than you realize that you have a wife who (1) likes you enough to be open to frequent sex with you, (2) has a strong enough innate drive to sustain that level of activity, and (3) is free from sexual shame, hang-ups, bad teachings, abuse fallout, etc. There are lots of people who simply cannot perform, and many others who perceive their own "needs" as so great that they marry people they do not want in order to get those needs met. In such cases there is nothing to restore.

Also, I never said the right to sex falls to the man. It falls to both men and women equally.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mina said:


> maybe having a talk with them about how they would want to feel and what they would think if they suddenly found themselves today terminally ill and on their deathbed: would they think "I wish I could have gotten that sink cleaner" or "I wish my lazy husband would have gotten the porch rails installed sooner" ... or would they rather be thinking "thank god for the great and fun time we had together last night, last week ... and what great friends my DH and I are" ??


Interesting - I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought this way. Over a 15-year marriage she had not once provided a single truly good sexual experience despite having been waited on hand and foot and knowing exactly what I wanted. I realized at some point that if we had spent a lifetime together and she never once came through for me, she simply would not care.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

hubby said:


> Seriously, how do you make someone understand this? It takes so much introspective that is nearly impossible for an external factor to drive.


Simple. You tell your spouse "the way you treat me, I truly feel that you could go the rest of your life without truly fulfilling me sexually and not care".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

hubby said:


> No doubt. If there was a way to gather up all the "enlightened" spouses on this board and have some sort of separate online support forum or even have a phone call with the withholding spouses...it would save so many marriages.


Probably not. I tend to think that most spouses encountering these problems know exactly what their spouses need but simply refuse to provide.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why on earth would you say that? 

Honestly?

She already knows PERFECTLY WELL how you feel. She knows. And that means she DOES NOT CARE - about how YOU feel. 

Guys - you are going to have to get better at this. 

You simply ask her a single question: Would you be ok if I prioritized your highest needs the way you do mine? 

That's it. There are only a few possible answers you will get:
1. NO (this means that you are expected to continue fully meeting her needs - don't respond - just start treating her needs as she treats yours)
2. YES (this is a type of challenge - to see if you will destabilize the marriage - don't respond - simply drop her to the bottom of the priority list)
3. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? This is not a question. She knows exactly what you mean. This is an attempt to get you talking, and ideally upset, so you say something foolish and she twists this into you being a mean/selfish/jerk. (shrug and don't respond - she knows exactly what you mean - same action as in one and two above)
4. SILENCE (this is a very powerful response - it means that she is not going to discuss the imbalance in the relationship. And further that you are not even worthy of a response or acknowledgement - remain silent and deprioritize her)
5. Some version of attacking you: Typically with - oh - so this is about SEX again. (Don't respond - deprioritize her)
The only legitimate response to your question is an engaged - caring - concerned about YOU response. If you get that - keep it very short. And point out that you look forward to seeing quick, substantial improvements in how much effort she shows you. 




DTO said:


> Simple. You tell your spouse "the way you treat me, I truly feel that you could go the rest of your life without truly fulfilling me sexually and not care".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mina said:


> Somewhere along the line the man needs to step up and be a man. I think that's what all women want and are waiting for. without being an [email protected]@hole about it, of course, but be the man ask for and expect respect and find a way for your W to appreciate what you bring to the table.


I wish that were true. I'm sure it's true in many cases, but in some cases the woman just does not want to be bothered.

I had suspected (and then had it confirmed) by the ex that she never liked me sexually but married me to achieve her goals for status and comfort. Rather than chasing my tail or just sucking it up, I started to send a consistent message that she had a responsibility to me and I would not pretend I was happy. A couple of times she got nasty and I refused to cow down.

Did it get me laid more? Not really. What did happen? She called me out as abusive in several of our divorce documents and to everyone that would listen.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> DTO,
> I think perhaps it is best to look at this from both sides - juxtaposed:
> 
> Woman: I like to receive acts of service. They make me feel loved. When I ask my H to do something, and he does a good job and is clearly happy to do something that makes me feel loved - that is a big deal. This is different than hiring someone as that is abstract and perhaps could seem as if my H:
> ...



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Once women smell fear and desperation,it creates an unnecessary power differential in the relationship. Whenever there is a disagreement,more often that not,the one with the most power gets their way. From there its a downward spiral.

NEVER do chores to get sex. 
STOP begging for oral and anal sex.
KNOW the mind of the woman who is your wife.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> From many of the posts in this thread, I can see exactly why the OP posted this thread in the first place.
> It's a wonder that people even manage to have sex at all with all the "I need this in order to want to have sex" issues going on.
> I've never, ever needed anything more than the desire to have sex, my libido isn't tied into my husband doing chores or whatever mind game is needed, it's tied into my husband, period.
> I had sex with other men prior to meeting my husband, I also didn't need them to provide services in order to get me in the mood, so why would I expect my husband to do that just to get me to have sex with him?
> Too much pressure, too much wheeling & dealing, too much thinking about something that should be a natural response to the chemistry between two people.


And why is your libido tied into your husband? What is the reason you have "natural chemistry" with him in the first place? Is it more than a pure sexual attraction? 

I guess it all depends on what you define as "services." For me chemistry is more than my husband's penis, his perfect hands, or even his warm smile. When we were dating my husband courted me, flirted with me, uplifted me, and generally made me feel good about myself. I admired him as a person, and I still do. And YES he did things for me too. If I was having a bad day, he did what he could to help me then, and he does what he can to help me now. Now (because it's where we are in life with small children) that often means helping with household duties and kids.

You've never needed anything more "than your desire to have sex?" I think many women (at least many of the women that I know) are a little more complicated than that. Desire (for many women and men) involves more than pure sexual libido. Forgive me if I'm being, er, obtuse.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> And why is your libido tied into your husband? What is the reason you have "natural chemistry" with him in the first place? Is it more than a pure sexual attraction?
> 
> I guess it all depends on what you define as "services." For me chemistry is more than my husband's penis, his perfect hands, or even his warm smile. When we were dating my husband courted me, flirted with me, uplifted me, and generally made me feel good about myself. I admired him as a person, and I still do. And YES he did things for me too. If I was having a bad day, he did what he could to help me then, and he does what he can to help me now. Now (because it's where we are in life with small children) that often means helping with household duties and kids.
> 
> You've never needed anything more "than your desire to have sex?" I think many women (at least many of the women that I know) are a little more complicated than that. Desire (for many women and men) involves more than pure sexual libido. Forgive me if I'm being, er, obtuse.


Yeah, it's pretty simple, I like sex & I don't use it as a weapon/game/ploy.
I don't "need" my husband to jump through hoops, to get me aroused, him being him is all it takes.
He's as Alpha as they come, maybe being married to an Alpha is what does it for me, who knows, but I do know, it doesn't matter one bit to me whether or not he takes the trash out, does the dishes, I'm going to have sex with him because I want to have sex.

Now, if that's something you can't understand, that's on you, you see I don't have hang ups when it comes to my sexuality, my libido is not tied into having to have a "perfect storm" of my neediness assuaged before I get down.
Maybe this is why you can't understand that for some, sex is very important, because they feel the pure physical & biological need for sex, while you're the type who needs the star to align perfectly before you decide to have sex.
It is what it is. 
That's the difference, I don't "decide" to have sex, I HAVE sex because I WANT to have sex, I'm driven to want to fck my husband. 
Can't get more simple than that.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Yeah, it's pretty simple, I like sex & I don't use it as a weapon/game/ploy.
> I don't "need" my husband to jump through hoops, to get me aroused, him being him is all it takes.
> He's as Alpha as they come, maybe being married to an Alpha is what does it for me, who knows, but I do know, it doesn't matter one bit to me whether or not he takes the trash out, does the dishes, I'm going to have sex with him because I want to have sex.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. And for the record, I don't use sex as a "weapon, game, ploy," either. It's wonderful that you have such a high natural drive, and that you are so perfectly in charge of your sexuality.

Unfortunately, it's just not that simple for all lot of other women (and maybe some men as well). I have to work a lot harder than my husband to even get close to having an orgasm. I'm not just a "switch" that turns on at the sight of him. I don't think this makes me less of a person, and even less of a "sexual being"--just different. And just as I respect my husband's need for sex, he needs to understand and respect this as well (and he does).

And if you carefully read my posts, you'd see that I've said many times that I DO understand that sex is an integral part of marriage. Just because I'm not driven to "fck" my husband at the drop of the hat does not mean that I have "hang ups when it comes to my sexuality." And sex for me is NOT contingent upon "having to have a "perfect storm" of my neediness assuaged before I get down." If that was the case, we'd never have sex around here. Believe me on that.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I understand what you are saying. And for the record, I don't use sex as a "weapon, game, ploy," either. It's wonderful that you have such a high natural drive, and that you are so perfectly in charge of your sexuality.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's just not that simple for all lot of other women (and maybe some men as well). I have to work a lot harder than my husband to even get close to having an orgasm. I'm not just a "switch" that turns on at the sight of him. I don't think this makes me less of a person, and even less of a "sexual being"--just different. And just as I respect my husband's need for sex, he needs to understand and respect this as well (and he does).
> 
> And if you carefully read my posts, you'd see that I've said many times that I DO understand that sex is an integral part of marriage. Just because I'm not driven to "fck" my husband at the drop of the hat does not mean that I have "hang ups when it comes to my sexuality." And sex for me is NOT contingent upon "having to have a "perfect storm" of my neediness assuaged before I get down." If that was the case, we'd never have sex around here. Believe me on that.


Okay, well there you go, for some people it's difficult to get in a sexual place, for others it's not & for others they use sex as a bargaining chip. 

Going back to the OP's point of this thread, there are those who have to jump through hoops with their partner in order to have sex.
It's tough to dispute that for some, they have to navigate a mindfield of negotiating just to have sex & that's why this thread was started in the first place. 
I think that if someone has to have their partner go through a series of either explicit or implicit demands in order to have sex, then that person could very well have more issues going on than arousal.
For them, it could very well be a weapon/game/ploy against their partner.
When someone doesn't have sex with their partner for months or even years, there is something more going on within that person than just not having sex.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> And why is your libido tied into your husband? What is the reason you have "natural chemistry" with him in the first place? Is it more than a pure sexual attraction?
> 
> I* guess it all depends on what you define as "services." For me chemistry is more than my husband's penis, his perfect hands, or even his warm smile. When we were dating my husband courted me, flirted with me, uplifted me, and generally made me feel good about myself. I admired him as a person, and I still do. * And YES he did things for me too. If I was having a bad day, he did what he could to help me then, and he does what he can to help me now. Now (because it's where we are in life with small children) that often means helping with household duties and kids.
> 
> You've never needed anything more "than your desire to have sex?" I think many women (at least many of the women that I know) are a little more complicated than that. Desire (for many women and men) involves more than pure sexual libido. Forgive me if I'm being, er, obtuse.



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Need I say more?
The question now should be;
"...What causes a normal woman to LOSE that sexual attraction AFTER marriage...."
Therin lies the truth.
Figure it out ,and all of the hoops , games and shenanigans in lieu of sex, will be non existent.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Okay, well there you go, for some people it's difficult to get in a sexual place, for others it's not & for others they use sex as a bargaining chip.
> 
> Going back to the OP's point of this thread, there are those who have to jump through hoops with their partner in order to have sex.
> It's tough to dispute that for some, they have to navigate a mindfield of negotiating just to have sex & that's why this thread was started in the first place.
> ...


:iagree:


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"...What causes a normal woman to LOSE that sexual attraction AFTER marriage...."
Therin lies the truth.
Figure it out ,and all of the hoops , games and shenanigans in lieu of sex, will be non existent."

I don't know if I believe this. I think a lot of what causes the hoops, games and shenanigans are power struggles over who is the "boss" in the partnership. I say it again: I think only one person can be in charge at any given time (i.e. "the man") and that person should generally be the man. For various and sundry reasons, not the least of which that is what women Really want: a real man who leads them, takes care of them and will fight for and defend them (and the family, by extension.) 

It doesn't mean he is in charge of everything at all times and it doesn't mean he needs to abuse his position of "boss" but in general, he leads, he makes the big decisions (with input) and he does the heavy lifting and defending if necessary. 

The hoops games and shenanigans are just ruses that the women put out there to see and "test" if they are in charge. "Let's see if I can get him to do what I say, to do it how I want it ... can I be in charge of him here? ... how about here? ... here?" These are not "needs" they are tests to see if there is a power vacuum there that she can take a little power real estate. Over time it's more and more and more until her demands are totally unreasonable, the man is completely emasculated in every area and NO ONE is getting what they want, much less do they any more have a Clue what it is they DO want. 

Some needs are reasonable and should be addressed by the husband. Some needs are reasonable and should be addressed by the wife herself. Some needs are totally out of bounds unreasonable and illogical and someone needs to be the one to call BS when they pop up. It won't be her.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

mina said:


> "...What causes a normal woman to LOSE that sexual attraction AFTER marriage...."
> Therin lies the truth.
> Figure it out ,and all of the hoops , games and shenanigans in lieu of sex, will be non existent."
> 
> ...


:iagree:
That's spot on, I can see how there could be a power struggle in the dynamic of a relationship, which could really just mean passive aggressive behavior.
Instead of expressing what they want, someone will use PA to control the situation.
So sad & such a waste, life is just too short, know what I mean?
If you want something, ask for it, if you're not getting it, then maybe you're not with the right person.
At the end of the day, "love" can only do so much in a relationship, if your partner isn't meeting you at least half way, you may need to reevaluate why you're with the person to begin with.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> :iagree:
> That's spot on, I can see how there could be a power struggle in the dynamic of a relationship, which could really just mean passive aggressive behavior.
> Instead of expressing what they want, someone will use PA to control the situation.
> So sad & such a waste, life is just too short, know what I mean?
> ...


It is sad if it becomes a power struggle. That's why there needs to be balance with BOTH partners working to meet the different needs of the other.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

A woman can only trust her man to lead the household if he is trustworthy and shows he is capable of leading the family.

I couldn't trust that my ex would always have our family first in his mind. I couldn't trust him with leading us or being the head of anything. I had to take the brunt of that, and I didn't like it. That's just me.

I trust H to have our family's best interest at heart...while he's flubbed up a couple times, that's just life. Learn and move on. I like the traditional roles in our home, it makes me feel more secure. Even though I work outside the home, I still prefer he is the one 'wearing the pants'. It makes him feel good too. Proud rooster struttin' his stuff :rofl: We're honestly just big dorks around here, but I respect his leadership because I TRUST it. We talk and discuss big issues/decisions, and listen to the others concerns, ideas, and usually come to a good consensus, but sometimes he just makes decisions, and i like it. It's sexy to me.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

that_girl said:


> A woman can only trust her man to lead the household if he is trustworthy and shows he is capable of leading the family.
> 
> I couldn't trust that my ex would always have our family first in his mind. I couldn't trust him with leading us or being the head of anything. I had to take the brunt of that, and I didn't like it. That's just me.
> 
> I trust H to have our family's best interest at heart...while he's flubbed up a couple times, that's just life. Learn and move on. I like the traditional roles in our home, it makes me feel more secure. Even though I work outside the home, I still prefer he is the one 'wearing the pants'. It makes him feel good too. Proud rooster struttin' his stuff :rofl: We're honestly just big dorks around here, but I respect his leadership because I TRUST it. We talk and discuss big issues/decisions, and listen to the others concerns, ideas, and usually come to a good consensus, but sometimes he just makes decisions, and i like it. It's sexy to me.


I agree. On some things, I wish DH would take more of an assertive, leadership role. I'm naturally a type "A" personality, and he's very easy-going so sometimes I'm like "what IS your opinion on this? What do you want to do? What ARE we going to do?"

But I don't think it makes a man less of a leader if he helps his wife with the house and if he realizes that she has needs that he needs to meet as well. If anything, this makes him MORE of a leader because he is illustrating how it is important to prioritize his spouse's needs. If the wife sees THIS, she is more likely to follow.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

A man should meet the wives needs when ever he can or more importantly whenever she thinks he should. Or at least try. 

But if it's an unreasonable demand or one that diminishes or degrades him, he should refuse and let her know why.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> A man should meet the wives needs when ever he can or more importantly whenever she thinks he should. Or at least try.
> 
> But if it's an unreasonable demand or one that diminishes or degrades him, he should refuse and let her know why.


I don't disagree with that at all. But doesn't it go both ways? If a husband makes an unreasonable demand or one that diminishes or degrades _her_ shouldn't she also refuse and let _him_ know why??


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

that_girl said:


> A woman can only trust her man to lead the household if he is trustworthy and shows he is capable of leading the family.
> 
> *I couldn't trust that my ex would always have our family first in his mind. I couldn't trust him with leading us or being the head of anything.* I had to take the brunt of that, and I didn't like it. That's just me.
> 
> I trust H to have our family's best interest at heart...while he's flubbed up a couple times, that's just life. Learn and move on. I like the traditional roles in our home, it makes me feel more secure. Even though I work outside the home, I still prefer he is the one 'wearing the pants'. It makes him feel good too. Proud rooster struttin' his stuff :rofl: We're honestly just big dorks around here, but I respect his leadership because I TRUST it. We talk and discuss big issues/decisions, and listen to the others concerns, ideas, and usually come to a good consensus, but sometimes he just makes decisions, and i like it. It's sexy to me.


Yeah, my ex would have just led us over a cliff.
Some people just aren't capable of being good leaders. 
That's a lot of responsibility, some either flourish in that role or flounder.
The husband & I are both natural born leaders, it's what we both excel at, which is why we have butted heads in the past, it was difficult for me to relinquish "control" of some things out of fear that it meant me being vulnerable.
It takes A LOT of faith & trust to give up your perceived idea of control, especially when you're used to your own status quo. 
Marriage is a partnership, I believe that for the greater good of the relationship, there has to an ebb & flow to the leadership, it shouldn't be static, as one may have stronger skills in one area than the other person & vice versa.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"as one may have stronger skills in one area than the other person & vice versa" 

of course, some things I am better at and I lead and vice versa. that happens, power and "boss" aren't written in stone ahead of time for Every Situation. but in general, yes, I think the man should be in charge. again I am a strong, independent woman no wallflower  and I still believe this, based on what I have seen in the past 6 months in my household. 

but if you are with someone who you think would have "led you over a cliff", "didn't trust", "couldn't lead" - wouldn't you be better off divorcing and finding a Real Man anyway?? rather than wrest all of the power from the incompetent and leading him around by the nose? what good is he, at that point?? (unless you're into that sort of scene ... )


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

that_girl said:


> When I belonged to a mommy message board, soooo many women griped about their husbands and what they don't do. More specifically, what they don't do RIGHT. :scratchhead: Eh? They didn't change the baby right, they didn't vacuum right, they didn't do laundry right.
> 
> Holy crap! Who cares if it's "right" (read: YOUR WAY)...it's GETTING DONE. Stfu. And I told them so....and I was given so many excuses how I just 'don't know'. Yea, I do know. I know my husband does things DIFFERENTLY than I do, but it's not wrong. Just let your husband do what he does and appreciate that he did it...just as you do what you do and he appreciates it. It doesn't have to be YOUR way.
> 
> ...


You're my hero. Seriously.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

mina said:


> "as one may have stronger skills in one area than the other person & vice versa"
> 
> of course, some things I am better at and I lead and vice versa. that happens, power and "boss" aren't written in stone ahead of time for Every Situation. but in general, yes, I think the man should be in charge. again I am a strong, independent woman no wallflower  and I still believe this, based on what I have seen in the past 6 months in my household.
> 
> *but if you are with someone who you think would have "led you over a cliff", "didn't trust", "couldn't lead" - wouldn't you be better off divorcing and finding a Real Man anyway?? rather than wrest all of the power from the incompetent and leading him around by the nose? what good is he, at that point?? (unless you're into that sort of scene* ... )



That's why he's my ex, , that relationship gave new meaning to dysfunctional & why I left him.
He didn't start out that way, but eventually his true colors came through, as it often time does. 
But I'm 100% grateful for having been in that relationship because of what I learned while in it. 
I grew as a person & realized that not only did I deserve better for myself but also that my partner needed to want better for himself & us as well. 
It wasn't all about me, it was a learning process where I discovered that in order to make a relationship work for me, both people needed to want the absolute best for one another & for them as a couple.
For a relationship to be successful, you have to be on the same team, selfish behavior kills relationships.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

mina said:


> "...What causes a normal woman to LOSE that sexual attraction AFTER marriage...."
> Therin lies the truth.
> Figure it out ,and all of the hoops , games and shenanigans in lieu of sex, will be non existent."
> 
> ...




^^^^^^^^^
There Mina,
You have have just answered it!
Women are generally not attracted to weak men. But they also put their men through tests to prove himself worthy of her.
My wife ALWAYS challenges me with these fitness tests.
Sometimes I just look at her and smile,and she throws her hands in the air.
But,she knows not to cross that line.

Right there is where a lot of men fail. They refuse to stand up,and most times they think it would make them more attractive to their wife. 
Then the wife go finds herself one of those " Alpha A- Holes " on the side..........


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I don't think it matters whether somebody "believes" in leadership or not. Wherever there are two, or more, human beings gathered, somebody will always emerge as a leader. In some situations it is obvious, and in others more subtle. But human beings always fall into hierarchical structures, by our very nature.
> 
> Leadership does not suggest inequality.
> 
> Leadership does not suggest that the leader leads at all times in all things.


Thank you! Thank you! Yes! Finally, someone who gets this! I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm a doormat just because my husband is usually the leader in our relationship, and I don't fight against that. I've been told over and over, "You need to be equal with your husband, you're selling yourself short by not standing up and leading too."

Thank you for saying this.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I honestly believe a lot of people, male and female, need to stop waiting around to "feel sexual". Sex needn't always be initiated from a "feeling". Sex can be sparked off from beginning to do sexual things and then allowing the "feelings" to follow the act.
> 
> People don't often "feel" like doing a lot of things, but they do them anyway. Sex should be no different.
> 
> ...


Bravo!

Studies have also shown that, in lower drive people, if they have sex when they don't feel like it, it can and often does increase their sex drive.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"Right there is where a lot of men fail. They refuse to stand up"

Ok, so back to my horse analogy from earlier. In the herd, there is one and only one lead horse. All day long, every day the horse in slot #2, #3 and #4 are testing him and each other: Can I get horse #2 to move away when I put my ears back? how about can I move into his space? Can I get horse #1 to turn to the outside when I come up from the inside? 

These are fitness tests to see if the horse in the slot above them is WORTHY of the position he is in. They are not conscious of it, they just do it by instinct. And when I say all day, every day I am not kidding. I can sit in my pasture for hours any day of the week and watch the horses jockey for position, even the three at the bottom of the herd (#6, #7 and #8) among themselves constantly try to elevate themselves. They'd never THINK to challenge Mr. #1 - he rules with an iron fist to them but you can be sure horse #2 and #3 are testing him all day long. 

I think women do this to their men. They might not even be conscious of it or they know it in their subconscious. They are testing to see if he is still worthy of the position of "Leader". When he fails the test, she gets a notch and the tests escalate from there.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"If two people wait around constantly for their desire for sex to line up at the same time, then that severely diminishes the chances of them having more frequent sex.

Like the Nike commercial says, just do it!"

I find even when I don't "feel like it" if we get rolling and I start pretending like in the porn movies "uuuuhhh, ooohhh, yeah baby" all of a sudden there I am horny and randy as heck. Give it to me baby!! 

You can feel the way you act. 

Again back to my horse analogy (LOL) sometimes I get nervous when I jump my horse in the fields. he senses my fear instantly and spooks and wheels about with nervous energy. so what I do is Act totally confident. I slow my breathing, I sit up tall, and don't grip with my legs or hands and like magic I feel more confident! the horse feels confident and it's a virtuous cycle!!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

mina said:


> The hoops games and shenanigans are just ruses that the women put out there to see and "test" if they are in charge. "Let's see if I can get him to do what I say, to do it how I want it ... can I be in charge of him here? ... how about here? ... here?" These are not "needs" they are tests to see if there is a power vacuum there that she can take a little power real estate. Over time it's more and more and more until her demands are totally unreasonable, the man is completely emasculated in every area and NO ONE is getting what they want, much less do they any more have a Clue what it is they DO want.


This is so spot on, its exactly what I think happened in my marriage. I never even clued in that I was being fitness tested, I just saw all these things she wanted and I felt like if I failed her she'd be disappointed and it would get worse. Some of her challenges I met (and thus failed the test) but many I failed (and still lost the test because I expelled all my effort on the wrong idea), meanwhile I totally disregarded my own needs and wants because I was so busy trying to be subservient. I thought all those things were genuine needs and wants, never once questioned that they could be a ruse.

And it is so true that by the end they don't even KNOW what they want (or I didn't). The heartbreaking thing is, my ex left under the impression that those shenanigans were actual needs she was entitled to, but even more, all those things plus a man who knew what he wanted and goes for it, and so by leaving the marriage the act of shedding those hoops and shenanigans (cause she no longer needs them any more) in fact gives her a sense of freedom and relief and only reaffirms that she made the right decision.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

mina said:


> "Right there is where a lot of men fail. They refuse to stand up"
> 
> Ok, so back to my horse analogy from earlier. In the herd, there is one and only one lead horse. All day long, every day the horse in slot #2, #3 and #4 are testing him and each other: Can I get horse #2 to move away when I put my ears back? how about can I move into his space? Can I get horse #1 to turn to the outside when I come up from the inside?
> 
> ...


I LOVE this, Mina.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

mina said:


> "Right there is where a lot of men fail. They refuse to stand up"
> 
> Ok, so back to my horse analogy from earlier. In the herd, there is one and only one lead horse. All day long, every day the horse in slot #2, #3 and #4 are testing him and each other: Can I get horse #2 to move away when I put my ears back? how about can I move into his space? Can I get horse #1 to turn to the outside when I come up from the inside?
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Pack animal mentality, there has to be a hierarchy of status for the survival of the pack.
Wolves & dogs do it too, that's where "Alpha, Beta, Omega" comes from, the structure is there & each member of the pack knows what their role is.
The fighting results from those trying to move up in the pack, the battle for control & dominance. 
Not all animals do this, which is allow more than one male into a pack.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think it comes from my husband being the oldest of 5, in a crappy childhood home, where he was "dad". 

And he helps out around the house. My god, he lives here, right? :rofl: He does the shet I hate doing...like moving furniture to vacuum dog hair (he's a SPAZ about dog hair), and mopping floors, and on his days off, he has the house picked up for me when I get home, same as I do for him. He does the yard work too unless I do some to help him with his long days.

And...I hate laundry. I hated SORTING laundry *gag*...so I bought two hampers, labelled them "darks" and "Whites" and holy crap! Made my life tons easier. TONS! Now I just throw it in, and then fold it. Well, he helps me fold it. I hate that too. LAUNDRY IS THE BANE OF MY EXISTENCE!!! We should be nudists.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Maybe I'm just old. (  ) but honestly, I simply DO NOT GIVE A RAT'S ASS about what used to send me in a tizzy when I was younger, with guys.

I just don't. I don't want to be in control, I don't want to fight about money (then again, I wont' have joint accounts), I dont' want to worry about bills (we just pay what we've agreed to pay)...maybe I'm just lazy? :rofl: I just like things calm. When people say what bothers them, I just don't think are big deals (aside from abuse). However, i don't tell them that because those things used to bother me...they just don't anymore. I don't know when the switch happened, but I'm glad it did.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"The heartbreaking thing is, my ex left under the impression that those shenanigans were actual needs she was entitled to, but even more, all those things plus a man who knew what he wanted and goes for it, and so by leaving the marriage the act of shedding those hoops and shenanigans (cause she no longer needs them any more) in fact gives her a sense of freedom and relief and only reaffirms that she made the right decision." 

WOW!! that is really ... deep, insightful. Just wow!


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> If your wife does not respect you, telling her that she should respect you isn't really going to change anything unless that leads to her telling you why she doesn't already respect you.
> 
> And don't forget the other part of MEM's post...it goes both ways. Do you respect your wife?


My respect to you for these words !!!! I will quote these to my wife since you have put it so beautifully and eloquently.... I am a lesser mortal apparently however that it does bring some display of resentment and aggression...

I edited my post because it mislead quite a few guys. I meant to say I respect MEM--- for putting it so beautifully and eloquently. I also meant to say that I tend to become angry and aggressive when my needs are not met.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Why on earth would you say that?
> 
> Honestly?
> 
> ...


I've been thinking about this post since yesterday and I realized that I did do this (deprioritize her) although I didn't even realize what I was doing really. A few years ago, I basically gave up and stopped asking my wife for sex. 

For years, no matter what I did or how I tried to frame things, or tried to meet her needs, it didn't help. I read "his Needs, Her Needs" years ago and shared it with my wife. I got "The sex Starved Marriage" at one point and shared it with her. I tried giving her more help around the house. Sex was once a week at best. Many times, every other week. I'd say 3 times a month average.

So I quit asking, and started doing what I wanted to do. I didn't really help around the house much. I didn't help with the kids much. If she cooked, I ate. If she didn't, I got takeout. I spent my extra money on me. I spent at least 3 years watching lots of porn and taking care of myself late into the night after she went to bed. I got up late on weekends. I went out with my guy friends. For awhile, I was gone one weekend a month to the racetrack with my male buddies.

And it didn't really change much at all. Rarely did she say anything about it. We still had sex 3 or 4 times a month at best. Sometimes less.

I don't think she ever made the connection. Or maybe she just didn't really care.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

GoodFight, sounds like she's happy having a roommate and not a partner. Why are you settling for that?


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

mina said:


> Norajane: in every relationship someone leads and someone follows. that is just nature. I see it in dogs, horses and in people. in most modern marriages women work to become Alpha. they lead. they take their husband's testicles and they put them in a jar. Not saying you specifically do that but just as an observation I see all around me.
> 
> Do you think men are not aware of this emasculation that is taking place? They are and it makes them resentful! and they feel like less and less of a man the longer it goes on and the worse he is treated. And what about us, the women? WE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER! We want our men to be MEN and the only way they can be MEN is to lead and be the alpha of our world.
> 
> ...


respect to Mina again !! I fully agree  I am so happy to see a few women who see through the current turmoil. It is resulting in a very quiet and a fast change... make no mistake... the men are reacting to their emasculation by taking some extreme steps ... e.g converting their religion.... better not cause those changes in society only for trying to wrest something that is not natural in relationships !!!!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Mina, that never even really dawned on me until just this morning when I read your comment. but all of a sudden it was painfully clear. That sense of independence she tasted when she detached from those fitness tests and my constant failure of them, is what I think fueled her decision to leave, and go her own way.

So what does in look like in a herd of horses when one challenges the aplha and succeeds? have you ever seen the alpha change? Does that stallion change his behavior in any way?


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"So what does in look like in a herd of horses when one challenges the aplha and succeeds? have you ever seen the alpha change? Does that stallion change his behavior in any way?"

I haven't see it yet. My Appaloosa was in a herd of 40 horses from the time he was 4 years old till he was 12 years old and always the lead horse. He is a good leader, fair and maintains control at all times and so no one ever came into the barn at night with scrapes or injuries not even the new horses (this is common when a new horse joins the herd.) So all of the other horse owners were happy my guy was in charge. 

Since he was 12 I have had him at home with my constantly changing herd members (rescues, deaths, hanging onto horses for friends, etc.) and he's always been the lead; 7 years now. 

I am sure if he lost his spot he'd be lost and emasculated. He takes a lot of pride in his leadership and he takes it very seriously. He's my soul mate horse and so yes I know this about him. :-D 

He, my DH and my big tom cat ... they are my men and all three just alike. I think they are triplets separated at birth and put into different species just for fun.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

mina said:


> "If two people wait around constantly for their desire for sex to line up at the same time, then that severely diminishes the chances of them having more frequent sex.
> 
> Like the Nike commercial says, just do it!"
> 
> ...


The problem with this is that the wife (or husband) might start to resent it if they feel "they are just doing it" all the time to please their partner. I'm not saying that sometimes they should "just do it" when they are not in the mood. But I'm not going so far to say that feelings don't matter at all when it comes to sex. I don't necessarily think you should ALWAYS "just do it" when you don't feel like it. Then you might start feeling more like a sexual object to help your husband (or wife) "get off" than anything. My feelings do matter when it comes to sex. They mattered before we got married, and they matter now.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

The problem with this is that the wife (or husband) might start to resent it if they feel "they are just doing it" all the time to please their partner. I'm not saying that sometimes they should "just do it" when they are not in the mood. But I'm not going so far to say that feelings don't matter at all when it comes to sex. I don't necessarily think you should ALWAYS "just do it" when you don't feel like it. Then you might start feeling more like a sexual object to help your husband (or wife) "get off" than anything. My feelings do matter when it comes to sex. They mattered before we got married, and they matter now. 

Yes, but, admit it there are times you "don't feel like it, but I can be convinced" and "really don't feel like it, if you touch me I'll go off like an incendiary device!" 

In the first case you THINK you don't feel like it and you THINK you're too tired but sex might be just what you need to get your head back on straight. 

In the second case you KNOW you don't feel like it and maybe if you do it you're going to puke. In that case I think you're right, sometimes when you say NO it's no but sometimes when you say No you mean Maybe.  right?? 

So when you think you mean maybe why not give it a whirl? Or start with a HJ/BJ and see where that takes you? Is all I'm saying.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Mina, I often shake my head why some people, women especially become so infatuated with horses... but your comments about your heard are amazing, you have completely changed my view of horses, I had no idea that they had such a structured social order, I had never given it much thought before.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

mina said:


> GoodFight, sounds like she's happy having a roommate and not a partner. Why are you settling for that?


I wouldn't say I'm settling now, as in the present tense.

I settled then because I believed her when she said she was just much lower drive than me. That she was just too tired during the week or whatever the excuses were. i quit fighting the excuses and just decided to accept it as just who she was. I married her and made a commitment. That and we have children together.

Then, 10 months ago, I found out she had been having an affair for a little less than a year. So that changed what I was willing to accept long term.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"I had no idea that they had such a structured social order." 

It would really blow your mind if I also told you I use that in order to train them to behave the way I want.  on the ground, to get in a trailer, to behave in the show ring, to submit to the Veterinarian, to have their feet trimmed, to be ridden in the open, over jumps, walk calmly past garbage trucks, etc. etc. :-D 

Leadership is a very powerful thing, but only useful if you don't abuse it but instead use it to provide a comfortable, confidence building place from which everyone can operate. Yep, works with humans too.


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I honestly believe a lot of people, male and female, need to stop waiting around to "feel sexual". Sex needn't always be initiated from a "feeling". Sex can be sparked off from beginning to do sexual things and then allowing the "feelings" to follow the act.
> 
> People don't often "feel" like doing a lot of things, but they do them anyway. Sex should be no different.
> 
> ...


This thread is so wonderful and jaqen u put it so beautifully. I am all respect for yuo..... wow my thoughts mirrorred so perfectly in words !!!! sorry but I am not so good at words with you... so all I can do is to applaud !


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Somehow I cannot agree with that logic.
> Frankly speaking I don't think people still " get married for sex."
> If that was accurate then all LD people would be single and unwed.
> People get married for all different sorts of reasons. At the time of marriage these reasons are called " NEEDS."
> ...


Your logic stems from your experience and it works for you and thats why you are advocating the approach. However for many people it does not work the same way. While your logic appeals as equality oriented it does not appeal to me because to me it means I should divorce which I cannot in my situation.

For me Your approach goes the same road as the begging, grovelling part..... Though idealistic it does not look to be realistic ..... in some ways it belies nature. I am not able to put it into words well enough I know and it is a very inadequate explanation.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think it's important to note that the OP is purposefully gender neutral.
> 
> There are a lot of sexually frustrated ladies out here dealing with husbands who are not sexing them often, if at all.
> 
> Sometimes I think that can be a worse place to be in because women in most societies are conditioned to think of sex as a lesser need for them than it is a man. So a sex starved woman might not feel her sexual hunger and needs are as important as a man, or might not feel the freedom to express that she desperately needs her spouse to make love to her the way a man does.


I think additionally, women can be fearful of exposing themselves as a women who gets no sex from their husband. When a man doesn't get sex from his wife, there is the risk of ridicule, but it's also a much more common issue so there is undoubtedly going to be some other men who can understand what he is going through.

For a woman, there's this social image that a man wants sex all the time, therefore if your man doesn't want sex with you, there must be something wrong with you. Who wants to expose that they have something wrong with them? There isn't anything wrong with them of course, but it's understandable how this mentality can come about. 

Great thread, great replies from everyone. Good to see.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

hubby said:


> No doubt. If there was a way to gather up all the "enlightened" spouses on this board and have some sort of separate online support forum or even have a phone call with the withholding spouses...it would save so many marriages.


Wow. I like this idea!

Maybe we can get Dr Phil to host this show? Maybe that way my wife will listen to it more intently!

Anyone have Phil's number?


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

mina;936674I think the assumption is said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Haven't gotten to read the whole thread yet and now I'm sorry I haven't kept up!
> 
> Mina, all I really want to know is do you have an unmarried sister?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

sinnister said:


> I am the opposite of a wuss, but this post brought tears to my eyes. I have never loved any woman as much as I love my wife. And the constant physical rejection has changed the person I am....in a negative way.
> 
> I'm through bartering for sex by seducing her mind. I'm through cleaning bathrooms, dishes, laundry etc on top of my "regular" guy chores just to have a sliver of intimacy. I know there are woman out there that would want me. I know it. I'm not charity and honestly, F her for doing this to me.


I feel somewhat like you. In my marriage, I cooked, cleaned, changed more diapers than her, got up with the babies at night, and i tried to act respectful to her in every way; I didn't flirt with other women and look at porn behind her back. I have learned here about "love languages." So, maybe all that wasn't fueling her love language, but shouldn't it count for something? I tried hard, yet she couldn't find enough desire to want to make love to her husband over once a month.

I liked flirting with my wife. I would have loved to have talked romantic things while we were at dinner or around the house, but she was afraid it would get me in the mood. I rubbed feet, gave back massages, had a tub of bathwater run when she sometimes had to work late so she could relax, yet, none of it was enough. When she decided she was "no longer happy" and wanted divorce, I was the total bad guy; I had done everything wrong.

I used to send her flowers for no reason at her work and all sorts of things in the beginning. I'm sure I may have transformed into a sour puss near the end, but after 18 years of wondering why my wife, who seemed so crazy to have me in the beginning, didn't seem to think sex was important, I'm sure it worked on my mental state as well. 

Yet, I am the same guy she acted like she was crazy about and just "had to have." I'm not sure what it was she "wanted," but it sure wasn't frequent sex.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DTO said:


> Well, to address this in order:
> 
> I never said I married for sex. When my future wife came around I was hitting my stride and could have gotten plenty. I married because I loved her romantically and, since she proposed to me, believed she felt the same way.
> 
> ...


Another point that needs to be made here. As I noted above the right to sex is not bestowed upon the man. It falls to both men and women equally.

Also, if sex is not a right, then nothing else is either. If my ex did not want sex with me, I did not force her to do anything. But, by the same token, I have the same freedom to deny her basic needs also. She found out the hard way when I stopped cooking special meals just for her and gassing up her car.

So your argument that sex is not a right, while theoretically sound, falls short in practice. Marital reality is very few spouses say "meet your sexual needs elsewhere and I will not ask much of you either". It's more common for the LD spouse to deny sex yet expect to be loved on and treasured; trust me on this one.

Stated differently, if my spouse expects me to meet her needs (and spouses generally do) without questioning their validity, then I have the right to the same. Her expectation that I meet her needs ON ITS OWN generates the responsibility to meet my needs (sexual or otherwise). Or, she can ask less of me.

Before someone says it, I will concede in advance the existence a mindset which says sex is at a "premium" to other acts of love or devotion. From this mindset comes the attitude of "I'm only asking you for ordinary stuff - sex is different so I don't have to provide it and you should treat me well regardless". My response is that attitude is a sham, designed to shame or bully the refused spouse into meeting the demands issued by the refuser.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Speaking personally, my resentment grows and my libido drops, breeding deeper resentment.
> 
> Logically, I agree with the OP. Hoop jumping for a little bit of sex is silly but the topic actually made me think a little bit about doing nice things and correlating it to my own drive, mentally and physically.
> 
> ...


I completely understand what you are saying. Interestingly enough, it is something I covered in detail in Business school: Two-factor theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I happen to agree with most of it too. I would nitpick on the the value you assign to doing the dishes (or any such mundane chore). Clearly, if your H is only just splitting the chore burden with you, then it is just a "hygiene" factor. But, if your husband consistently carries more than his share of such chores, then I would hope you would see it as a sacrifice in order to improve your life and see it as a "motivator" for sex.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Once women smell fear and desperation,it creates an unnecessary power differential in the relationship. Whenever there is a disagreement,more often that not,the one with the most power gets their way. From there its a downward spiral.
> 
> NEVER do chores to get sex.
> STOP begging for oral and anal sex.
> KNOW the mind of the woman who is your wife.


With this I totally agree. I was guilty of this and it took me a while not only to change my behavior but also to be taken seriously thereafter.

A far better way, assuming these are important enough to address, is to express your views from a position of strength and set clear personal boundaries accordingly.

For instance, the old me would have acted like "you promised oral, will you do it tonight? Why not? But you promised? Don't you intend to honor your promise? Why not?" Sad, right? :banghead:

Then, the new and wiser me acted like "you promised to meet my sexual need. You have not done so yet and our sex life is unsatisfactory. I expect you to follow through and am willing to work through the issues preventing you from doing so. But if you flat out refuse, you will see my effort level drop as well".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Phenix70 said:


> Yeah, it's pretty simple, I like sex & I don't use it as a weapon/game/ploy.
> I don't "need" my husband to jump through hoops, to get me aroused, him being him is all it takes.
> He's as Alpha as they come, maybe being married to an Alpha is what does it for me, who knows, but I do know, it doesn't matter one bit to me whether or not he takes the trash out, does the dishes, I'm going to have sex with him because I want to have sex.


This is pure gold. I tend to think that when we have to have a number of hurdles overcome just to get some sex / feel in the mood for sex, there is an underlying problem - we made poor relationship choices and there is so little chemistry that achieving sex is a constant uphill battle.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Unfortunately, it's just not that simple for all lot of other women (and maybe some men as well). I have to work a lot harder than my husband to even get close to having an orgasm. I'm not just a "switch" that turns on at the sight of him.


I'm curious as to whether you feel this way with your husband, or would you feel this way with any guy?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> The question now should be;
> "...What causes a normal woman to LOSE that sexual attraction AFTER marriage...."
> Therin lies the truth.
> Figure it out ,and all of the hoops , games and shenanigans in lieu of sex, will be non existent.


Ummm, no.

You are assuming this circumstance (the loss of sexual interest after marriage) to be a universal factor in the HD / LD issues we have here on TAM. But, this is not always the case. Often, the question to be asked is "why did you marry me if you did not want me sexually, and what can we do to salvage a workable relationship?"


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> My libido isn't tied to my husbands, sure. Leave me to my own devices I'll get off when I want to. If my husband was a RealDoll without emotions or actions, I could use him when I wanted to and not need to care about his needs.
> 
> My husband isn't a RealDoll though, and his drive is higher than mine. So, in order to better accommodate his needs, it's going to take a little bit of effort on his part as well as a little bit of effort on my part to try and match his appetite.
> 
> ...


I totally get what you are saying. But, with the hindsight of a failed marriage behind me, I'm starting to appreciate the wisdom of finding someone where your wants and needs mesh pretty closely (there is no exact match IMO) and the need for "motivation" is at an absolute minimum.

I'm curious: did you marry your husband without fully appreciating these differences in your sensibilities and now have found a way to make it work, or did you know you have these significantly different motivators and get married anyways (and if so, why)?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

DTO said:


> Ummm, no.
> 
> You are assuming this circumstance (the loss of sexual interest after marriage) to be a universal factor in the HD / LD issues we have here on TAM. But, this is not always the case. Often, the question to be asked is "why did you marry me if you did not want me sexually, and what can we do to salvage a workable relationship?"


This is where I'm at today. At least if I am to believe my W, which I am am more convinced of every day.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

DTO said:


> Ummm, no.
> 
> You are assuming this circumstance (the loss of sexual interest after marriage) to be a universal factor in the HD / LD issues we have here on TAM. But, this is not always the case. Often, the question to be asked is "why did you marry me if you did not want me sexually, and what can we do to salvage a workable relationship?"





TheGoodFight said:


> This is where I'm at today. At least if I am to believe my W, which I am am more convinced of every day.


I don't think this is the common scenario. I think our wives really did enjoy the sex at first and then she "lost that lovin' feeling.". No way a girl is going to have lots of hot sex before marriage (like most couples) without being sexually attracted. If that attraction was there before you have the power to ignite that flame again, I guarantee it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Not so true, Hubby.

I've known a couple women who have said point blank that they couldn't wait to get to the wedding and finish the honeymoon so they wouldn't have to keep having so much sex.



Bait and switch.

Happens alllllllllll the time (both genders).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> ^^^^^^^^^
> There Mina,
> You have have just answered it!
> Women are generally not attracted to weak men. But they also put their men through tests to prove himself worthy of her.
> ...


Maybe or maybe not. My take is sometimes there is a "fitness test" dynamic, sometimes it is an ongoing power struggle (as in the woman is not just testing the dude but really thinks she should get her way), and sometimes there are other issues.

I do completely agree though that taking a firm stand against such behavior, regardless of its cause, is the right way to act. For instance, it did not matter why my ex was a poor sexual partner. It could have been a fitness test or it could have been she really had little innate attraction to me. My stance was "my needs are what they are, and they are reasonable in light of what you request and receive, so you need to step up and be good for it", but not in those words of course.

I commanded respect and as a result was taken seriously. Ultimately she still left because she just did not like me enough to sustain a marriage. But, had I not manned up and insisted on being taken seriously, nothing would have changed. IOW, by speaking up and taking a stand I at least gave us a chance.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

that_girl said:


> Not so true, Hubby.
> 
> I've known a couple women who have said point blank that they couldn't wait to get to the wedding and finish the honeymoon so they wouldn't have to keep having so much sex.
> 
> ...


But did they enjoy the sex at first? Totally agree the downward spiral can happen before marriage, it happened with me.

I find it REALLY hard to believe that most woman would marry a man they were NEVER attracted to. Granted, there are gold diggers and woman who fear being alone, but they re the minority. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't know if they enjoyed it. Maybe it was all pretend. I can't imagine enjoying it then planning on not wanting it after you get married :scratchhead:...so in my head, I always thought they were faking their pleasure

ETA: The few women I knew who said this type of thing were all divorced within 4 years.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Thank you! Thank you! Yes! Finally, someone who gets this! I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm a doormat just because my husband is usually the leader in our relationship, and I don't fight against that. I've been told over and over, "You need to be equal with your husband, you're selling yourself short by not standing up and leading too."
> 
> Thank you for saying this.


Agree 100%. Another consideration is that leadership carries increased responsibility and effort. When someone tells you that you need to stand up and assert yourself, you can say you find the burden of leadership outweighs the rewards and you would rather put your effort into other areas.

I had a friend at a previous employer who was in an entry-level management position. He was a bright and capable guy and I asked him why he did not seek to move higher and perhaps lead a group on his own. His response was that felt like a great deal of responsibility and he preferred to let someone else have it. There's nothing wrong with that.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

A doormat because you let your man be a man?

ooookay. 

I'm a big ol' doormat then. Oh well. I'm gettin' mah ass cracked all the time too  Poor me, little ol' doormat. *snort*


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Lon said:


> And it is so true that by the end they don't even KNOW what they want (or I didn't). The heartbreaking thing is, my ex left under the impression that those shenanigans were actual needs she was entitled to, but even more, all those things plus a man who knew what he wanted and goes for it, and so by leaving the marriage the act of shedding those hoops and shenanigans (cause she no longer needs them any more) in fact gives her a sense of freedom and relief and only reaffirms that she made the right decision.


Hi Lon,

While I see your point, I want to present an alternate possibility based on what happened in my marriage.

Have you considered that, possibly, your wife just did not like you very much? I'm not talking about you having turned her off by your actions and inactions, but rather a growing realization on her end that there was insufficient chemistry to sustain a relationship over the long term.

The other possibility is that your wife was not fitness testing you. You said she felt entitled to those things. That indicates she needed those things you to make the relationship with you worthwhile. With this other guy, she acts differently because the increased chemistry means she is more into him and does not need that extra service to make the relationship valuable.

In my failed marriage, I reached a turning point where I realized my ex had never provided a truly good sexual experience in 15 years. Shortly after she moved out, she started dating someone seriously. I had to come to terms with the possibility that she was Mrs. Once-a-month with me but breaking out the kneepads for this other guy, for reasons having nothing to do with me.

See, it is very "Nice Guy" and ultimately harmful if we get stuck feeling "if I had only done XYZ I could have that too", because then you constantly doubt yourself. It's much healthier to get to a level of self-confidence where you can genuinely feel "if she doesn't value me then forget her - I can find three women who will treat me better than she ever did, and relatively soon".


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

hubby said:


> But did they enjoy the sex at first? Totally agree the downward spiral can happen before marriage, it happened with me.
> 
> I find it REALLY hard to believe that most woman would marry a man they were NEVER attracted to. Granted, there are gold diggers and woman who fear being alone, but they re the minority.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know it sounds strange at first. But consider that I met my W when we were 19. She was very sexually naive. I taught her lots of things including that there was even such a thing as a female orgasm. I still remember it. She jumped off of me like "what the hell just happened?"

She knew there was going to be sex in marriage, but it just wasn't on her radar as being all THAT important. She married me because we got along great, she thought I would be a good father, and that I'd make something out of myself. 

Now this is all coming from her, so I'm taking it at face value, but she says she was NEVER attracted physically to someone else until 4 years ago when she found this guy attractive but didn't realize what it even was until later when she found herself having sexual dreams about him. It was like that time she discovered orgasms.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, she didn't even have a frame of reference for what physical attraction even was when we got married, so she didn't even know she was marrying someone without having it.

I'm not saying I'm totally convinced that what she is saying isn't some rewriting of history. It may well be, but what she says is plausible. And if it IS true, I'm not sure I can even do anything about it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> The problem with this is that the wife (or husband) might start to resent it if they feel "they are just doing it" all the time to please their partner. I'm not saying that sometimes they should "just do it" when they are not in the mood. But I'm not going so far to say that feelings don't matter at all when it comes to sex. I don't necessarily think you should ALWAYS "just do it" when you don't feel like it. Then you might start feeling more like a sexual object to help your husband (or wife) "get off" than anything. My feelings do matter when it comes to sex. They mattered before we got married, and they matter now.


True. But I would add if you are "just doing it" so often that you feel resentful, you need to dig deep and find out why your drive is so low. If sex drives are reasonably matched up and you are treating each other reasonably well, you should be able to cheerfully meet his higher need and not feel bad about it.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> It is sad if it becomes a power struggle. That's why there needs to be balance with BOTH partners working to meet the different needs of the other.


I think in my own personal example when faced with 2 people with very similar personalities and upbringings this does happen. And it sux da monkey ballz. None of us are willing to give an inch. It becomes a tug war and you just end up fighting for the sake of it and forget your original intent to begin with.

You have to remember...some of us men are intelligent but not all together rational. *raises his hand*


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

hubby said:


> I don't think this is the common scenario. I think our wives really did enjoy the sex at first and then she "lost that lovin' feeling.". No way a girl is going to have lots of hot sex before marriage (like most couples) without being sexually attracted. _*If that attraction was there before you have the power to ignite that flame again, I guarantee it.*_


Well, you just contradicted yourself. You say "if that attraction was there". My premise is that the requisite level of attraction is NOT there, yet people choose to marry anways.

I don't know what you mean by the "common scenario". Does the scenario I propose constitute the majority of sexually unhappy marriages? Probably not, but it's far from rare.

I have belonged to a number of sites similar in purpose to TAM over the years and have seen many reasons given why people marry someone to whom they are not attracted sexually:

* ONS leads to pregnancy and then marriage to "make it right"
* Guilt over past sex or a strong sense of bonding leads someone to "make it right"
* Religious pressure to marry (fundamental Christianity and Mormonism, for instance) as a show of faith
* Family pressure to marry ("when are you going to have kids?")
* Feeling that you don't have much to offer / deserve much leads to "settling"
* A hunger for security (if, for example, you grew up in a family where Mom and Dad could not consistently pay the bills)
* A fear of being alone forever
* A strong desire to have kids ("biological clock" ticking)
* A mistaken sense that being married will magically change how you feel about someone.

So, why is so much sex being had in these situations:

* Sex is new or the partner is new, and new is exciting
* People know admitting you don't really desire your future spouse will cause them to not marry you.

Also, sometimes the sex is promised. "I'm a good girl/boy and am saving sex (or that part of sex) for marriage" is sometimes genuine but can be a cover for low attraction as well as emotional troubles (warped views on sex, past abuse, etc.)

One thing I know - there are many relationships described on TAM and elsewhere where sex stopped right after marriage; that strongly suggests the loving feeling was never there. Also, how many times have we seen someone say "I never really wanted much sex, I thought I could tolerate it / I thought he would get bored after a while, but now I just cannot stand it"? No way those are rare or isolated incidents.

At the end of the day, you need to avoid those guarantees. Confident people like myself know enough to take it with a grain of salt. People that are hurting or less confident will feel bad and convicted, really thinking it must have been their fault.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

DTO said:


> Hi Lon,
> 
> While I see your point, I want to present an alternate possibility based on what happened in my marriage.
> 
> ...


It is a possibility she just never really liked me that much, when we first met we worked together she was friendly, I was sorta interested, I tried in my passive niceguy ways to show my interest but she never picked up. Then she moved away and we rarely kept in touch until she moved back years later and I pursued her much harder and certainly won her affection, the rest was history... then eventually it wasn't...again.

So you may have a point.

But my point is all the slack I let on her leash, letting her get away with shenanigans, certainly didn't help to earn her respect... at one point in the separation when this all dawned on me I realized my situation, she was a kitten playing with a wounded mouse (me). And all the free space, time and money I provided for her to do whatever she pleased really did make me feel springboarded on when she sensed I had nothing left to give, cause I was completely burned out. And once she lept away she was off flying. I'm sure she's really into the guy she's seeing now, I'm sure the chemistry is as good as it was when I was the one trying to please her... I don't really care though, that is one problem I am glad I don't have to worry about anymore.

As for realizing I could have done XYZ differently, no there is nothing I could have done, it was all her... but as for getting my self confidence back, I'm kinda realizing if I'm low then I've always been low, so there is no "getting it back" but maybe somehow there can be a "getting it"... dating (or futile attempts to) is not working towards that I can tell. I am at the point where its either go alone or settle, and I don't want to do that - even though my ex was quite spectacular in many ways I still had the feeling I settled, I honestly don't think anyone can live up to my expectations after all this.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> True. But I would add if you are "just doing it" so often that you feel resentful, you need to dig deep and find out why your drive is so low. If sex drives are reasonably matched up and you are treating each other reasonably well, you should be able to cheerfully meet his higher need and not feel bad about it.


I don't disagree with that. After cruising these boards and reading about other people's experiences and drives, I actually think BOTH my husband and I are low-drive and pretty satisfied over-all with "vanilla sex." He's pretty satisfied with sex 2-3 times a week, while I would honestly be happy without about once a week. I'd say our average turns out to be about twice a week, and it works pretty well for us. And I'm really only starting to realize how very fortunate we are on this!

So _I_ don't really have a problem with frequency (although I am working on climaxing issues), but I feel for women (and men) who are matched with someone that has a much higher (or lower drive) than she (or he) does. In this case, I don't think EITHER the low or high drive person should completely put aside feelings for the partner.

_BTW, I really admire your writing and debating skills. I like how you smoothly concede, while tactfully disagreeing and giving your perspective. _


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> Yeah, it's pretty simple, I like sex & I don't use it as a weapon/game/ploy.
> I don't "need" my husband to jump through hoops, to get me aroused, him being him is all it takes.
> He's as Alpha as they come, maybe being married to an Alpha is what does it for me, who knows, but I do know, it doesn't matter one bit to me whether or not he takes the trash out, does the dishes, I'm going to have sex with him because I want to have sex.
> 
> ...


Wow! That is an attitude that I wish my x wife had displayed. I guess i was ignorant and thought that was how everybody felt about sex, especially if you loved somebody enough to marry them. I didn't realize that so many things were tied to sexual desire for some people until I came to this forum. I could never understand sex being a chore.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,
How many posts do you see here that read like this: 
(Spouse): My partner is HD and I am LD. I do a GREAT job of meeting my partners sexual needs because I love them. BUT, even though my partner makes a very good living, I get a TINY allowance and have to ask, beg for every dollar. This makes me tense and angry and I feel my partner doesn't love or care about me. 

This very common pairing of a financially needy partner with a sexually needy partner can be very happy, loving and symbiotic. But it generally requires MUCH more skill and determination on the part of the sexually needy partner than it does on their spouse. 



DTO said:


> Ummm, no.
> 
> You are assuming this circumstance (the loss of sexual interest after marriage) to be a universal factor in the HD / LD issues we have here on TAM. But, this is not always the case. Often, the question to be asked is "why did you marry me if you did not want me sexually, and what can we do to salvage a workable relationship?"


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I don't know if they enjoyed it. Maybe it was all pretend. I can't imagine enjoying it then planning on not wanting it after you get married :scratchhead:...so in my head, I always thought they were faking their pleasure
> 
> ETA: The few women I knew who said this type of thing were all divorced within 4 years.


Is it possible to fake pleasure so well and for so long as to fool a man into marriage? That's the part I really don't understand. Men really can't tell if a woman is genuinely enjoying sex with them or pretending to?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I don't disagree with that. After cruising these boards and reading about other people's experiences and drives, I actually think BOTH my husband and I are low-drive and pretty satisfied over-all with "vanilla sex." He's pretty satisfied with sex 2-3 times a week, while I would honestly be happy without about once a week. I'd say our average turns out to be about twice a week, and it works pretty well for us. And I'm really only starting to realize how very fortunate we are on this!


That sounds like a normal, healthy relationship to me. Some of the frustration you might sense from other people on TAM comes from unbelievably huge mismatches in libido. You don't have to be HD to find a year+ without upsetting.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

norajane said:


> Is it possible to fake pleasure so well and for so long as to fool a man into marriage? That's the part I really don't understand. Men really can't tell if a woman is genuinely enjoying sex with them or pretending to?


Hey, I don't know. I didn't fake my pleasure with my husband 

But the women all acted sooo into their fiances but were SO LOOKING FORWARD to not having sex.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Hey, I don't know. I didn't fake my pleasure with my husband
> 
> But the women all acted sooo into their fiances but were SO LOOKING FORWARD to not having sex.


That has been a confusing part with me. Why was she so into me and seem to want to marry me so badly? She was the one who pursued me. It's not like she didn't have other options; she dated other guys. When i came over while dating, she never wanted me to leave. She complimented my appearance a lot, the list goes on. Why would someone act that into somebody but not want sex on a regular basis, or think they were weird for wanting it. 

What is the attitude of most women who don't want sex often? Do they at least view their husband's desire as normal? My wife always acted like wanting sex on a regular basis was weird. She acted as though she didn't understand my desire for her. She even asked once if seeing other women on tv and such kept me in the mood all the time. In other words, there must be something weird going on that keeps me in the mood, just having a beautiful wife that I loved apparently wasn't a normal enough reason for her.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

southbound said:


> That has been a confusing part with me. Why was she so into me and seem to want to marry me so badly? She was the one who pursued me. It's not like she didn't have other options; she dated other guys. When i came over while dating, she never wanted me to leave. She complimented my appearance a lot, the list goes on. Why would someone act that into somebody but not want sex on a regular basis, or think they were weird for wanting it.
> 
> What is the attitude of most women who don't want sex often? Do they at least view their husband's desire as normal? My wife always acted like wanting sex on a regular basis was weird. She acted as though she didn't understand my desire for her. She even asked once if seeing other women on tv and such kept me in the mood all the time. In other words, there must be something weird going on that keeps me in the mood, just having a beautiful wife that I loved apparently wasn't a normal enough reason for her.


How was your sex life before marriage? Did she want sex then? How long did you date? Did you see each other often and have sex every time you wanted?

If she wanted it all the time then, that's the point I'd make with her. "Remember when we were dating and you wanted sex with me all the time? I STILL feel that way, and since you also felt that way then, you should be able to understand wanting sex all the time."

If she didn't want it all the time then, I'm not sure why you'd marry.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

southbound said:


> Do they at least view their husband's desire as normal? My wife always acted like wanting sex on a regular basis was weird. She acted as though she didn't understand my desire for her....


Slightly off topic, but part of the process of becoming our 'own person' in adolescence is deciding which of our parent's ideas and values we accept and which ones we reject. The theory is that boys as they mature base at least part of that challenge to parental authority on comparative physical size, whereas girls rely more strongly on the strength of their mind.

Of course this is a gross generalization and of course there are always exceptions, but the tendency to use personal perceptions as a baseline of what is (or should be) 'normal' in others is stronger in young women than in young men and this is well documented clinically.

I think (Based on your avatar) that you are a man who finds feet to be at least mildly erotic. A more perfect example to illustrate this phenomenon can hardly be conceived.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

norajane said:


> How was your sex life before marriage? Did she want sex then? How long did you date? Did you see each other often and have sex every time you wanted?
> 
> If she wanted it all the time then, that's the point I'd make with her. "Remember when we were dating and you wanted sex with me all the time? I STILL feel that way, and since you also felt that way then, you should be able to understand wanting sex all the time."
> 
> If she didn't want it all the time then, I'm not sure why you'd marry.


We dated about a year before we married. We were young, conservative, and inexperienced. We played around some, but didn't get into anything hot and heavy until after marriage. There was nothing in anything she said or done, however, that made me feel like she didn't like sex.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

norajane said:


> If she wanted it all the time then, that's the point I'd make with her. "Remember when we were dating and you wanted sex with me all the time? I STILL feel that way, and since you also felt that way then, you should be able to understand wanting sex all the time."


I completely agree.

The problem is, though, that such an approach gets you nowhere. The problem is not that this guy's wife does not comprehend his desire for sex. Rather, it is that she simply does not care.

If he asks her that question, the answer he will get will sound like "it was never that good", "I knew it was expected of me", "it was nice but never a priority and now there we are busier", etc.

It's far better that he take a firm stance and make a statement rather than a question: "I get that your wants and needs have changed, but mine have not. I know you full well understand what I require, and we need to stop avoiding the issue and get back to where you are providing as before."


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

southbound said:


> We dated about a year before we married. We were young, conservative, and inexperienced. We played around some, but didn't get into anything hot and heavy until after marriage. There was nothing in anything she said or done, however, that made me feel like she didn't like sex.


Under those circumstances, she honestly might not have known enough about sex to know what her natural desires would be once she started having sex. And she would have had even less idea about a man's sex drive and what to expect or what that feels like for you or what is "normal" for men.

Once she started having sex, she then would have had the opportunity to understand what it was for her, and how much of it she wanted, which, apparently was a lot less than you wanted.

She may have loved you very much when you were dating. But that doesn't equate to matching sex drives, or understanding her husband's sex drive.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

that_girl said:


> A doormat because you let your man be a man?
> 
> ooookay.
> 
> I'm a big ol' doormat then. Oh well. I'm gettin' mah ass cracked all the time too  Poor me, little ol' doormat. *snort*


Yup. It didn't matter how many times I said, "I don't _want_ to lead, I prefer _being lead_. It's why I married him in the first place, because he personified all of the qualities I wanted in a husband, and a few of those were: being able to lead, provide for, and protect me. Who he is is sexy, and I don't mind being lead." They still said that I was allowing myself to be a doormat. One lady even said that if I allowed my husband to lead, he could easily lead our family into something that's dangerous financially, and that it's actually my God-given authority to put him in his place. 

I just rolled my eyes. What works for one couple doesn't always work for other couples, I understand that. I'm sure there are cases when both spouses lose trust in and from their spouse because of things they do. And one of the lady's was, indeed, projecting the issues of her marriage onto mine. If my husband had some of those issues, it would likely take a while for that trust to be rebuilt. But in a relationship where the issues are, usually, rather small, does it make sense to warn a young woman against trusting her husband? I think not. 

My husband still leads us, and I love it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Yup. It didn't matter how many times I said, "I don't _want_ to lead, I prefer _being lead_. It's why I married him in the first place, because he personified all of the qualities I wanted in a husband, and a few of those were: being able to lead, provide for, and protect me. Who he is is sexy, and I don't mind being lead." They still said that I was allowing myself to be a doormat. One lady even said that if I allowed my husband to lead, he could easily lead our family into something that's dangerous financially, and that it's actually my God-given authority to put him in his place.
> 
> I just rolled my eyes. What works for one couple doesn't always work for other couples, I understand that. I'm sure there are cases when both spouses lose trust in and from their spouse because of things they do. And one of the lady's was, indeed, projecting the issues of her marriage onto mine. If my husband had some of those issues, it would likely take a while for that trust to be rebuilt. But in a relationship where the issues are, usually, rather small, does it make sense to warn a young woman against trusting her husband? I think not.
> 
> My husband still leads us, and I love it.


I love this and respect it. I didn't believe I'd feel the same way before I met my husband. The guys I dated were not trustworthy enough to follow. So, imo, the women who talk down about it (not all, but a lot of them) just haven't met a man who was a good leader.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> Slightly off topic, but part of the process of becoming our 'own person' in adolescence is deciding which of our parent's ideas and values we accept and which ones we reject.


I'm sure a lot of who i am is from my childhood. The thing is, I had a great childhood, but I never realized that so many emotional things could be tied to wanting sex or a good relationship. I didn't know anything about my parents sex life, but I know they seemed happy, and in looking back, I don't recall my dad having to jump through any hoops to keep mom happy. I grew up in a very simple life as well and both my parents were very logical. It was like everything had to make sense to them instead of emotional stuff. My mom didn't care for a lot of celebrations or vacations, we were just happy with everyday, simple life. I'm not saying any of that is better, apparently it was worse, because I didn't pick up on the fact that not everybody is like that.



norajane said:


> Under those circumstances, she honestly might not have known enough about sex to know what her natural desires would be once she started having sex. And she would have had even less idea about a man's sex drive and what to expect or what that feels like for you or what is "normal" for men.
> 
> Once she started having sex, she then would have had the opportunity to understand what it was for her, and how much of it she wanted, which, apparently was a lot less than you wanted.
> 
> She may have loved you very much when you were dating. But that doesn't equate to matching sex drives, or understanding her husband's sex drive.


What you say makes a lot of sense and could be right on the money. I'm still puzzled though as to how someone could love another person enough to marry them, yet not want sex with them. After all, isn't sex what separates a marriage from other relationships? I "love" a lot of people, but in different ways. I love my Aunt, but I have no desire to have sex with her. Why would I wanted to have married someone that i loved in the same way I love my Aunt? I can't even imagine wanting to marry someone but thinking sex wouldn't be a major part of the relationship.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I missed this entire thread --WOW the pages !! But I LOVE the opening post - I pretty much THINK exactly like this.... But this is very "easy" for me to say mind you.... as I have never been in the position to beg, grovel and work for it either. I do feel for those who are dealing with refusers , who aren't into sex the way they are. 

The worst I personally faced was having to learn "a little patience" with my lower Test husband and his lagging refractory period. 




jaquen said:


> For us the actual sex act is very spiritually gratifying, as well as sexually and emotionally. The sex act in and of itself is a powerful short hand for deep connection. We crave that connection, that bonding, that GOOD sex, because that in and of itself just seals us in a really wonderful way. Sex isn't a byproduct of the gesture, it is the gesture in and of itself.



What you say here ^^ is how me & mine FEEL overwhelmingly...and I am so damn thankful for this..every day....but it makes sense as we are both Romantic Physical Touchers & Time people.... but still in our past... WE MISSED IT...

And it had nothing to do with his not being Loving to me or irritating me, he also never begged groveled or pushed.. In our case, I feel that would have been better than silently putting himself down. 

Some of us have our heads up our a$$es when we have kids, allowing them to take priority over our spouse. I stand guilty as charged.... in my excitement for babies... at one point...we had 5 in 10 yrs time...I allowed the erotic Romance to slip past me.

Back in the groove again. Love all my kids ....but Daddy is #1 !


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

southbound said:


> What you say makes a lot of sense and could be right on the money. I'm still puzzled though as to how someone could love another person enough to marry them, yet not want sex with them. After all, isn't sex what separates a marriage from other relationships? I "love" a lot of people, but in different ways. I love my Aunt, but I have no desire to have sex with her. Why would I wanted to have married someone that i loved in the same way I love my Aunt? I can't even imagine wanting to marry someone but thinking sex wouldn't be a major part of the relationship.


Well, there are a lot of things that young, inexperienced people coming from a conservative background might not know or expect about sex and marriage. And your definition of "major part of the relationship" might not be the same as her definition of "major". 

I'm sure she didn't expect to NOT want much sex. Nobody really expects that, if they even think of the question, before they've had sex on a regular basis. If she even knew what "much sex" or "little sex" meant to you and to her.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

norajane said:


> Well, there are a lot of things that young, inexperienced people coming from a conservative background might not know or expect about sex and marriage. And your definition of "major part of the relationship" might not be the same as her definition of "major".
> 
> I'm sure she didn't expect to NOT want much sex. Nobody really expects that, if they even think of the question, before they've had sex on a regular basis. If she even knew what "much sex" or "little sex" meant to you and to her.


Good thoughts again. I guess neither of us gave it much "thought." I guess somewhere in the back of my mind I thought sex would be a normal part of the relationship and not something that always came in last place. I often wonder what her expectations were before we were married.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

norajane said:


> Well, there are a lot of things that young, inexperienced people coming from a conservative background might not know or expect about sex and marriage. And your definition of "major part of the relationship" might not be the same as her definition of "major".
> 
> I'm sure she didn't expect to NOT want much sex. Nobody really expects that, if they even think of the question, before they've had sex on a regular basis. If she even knew what "much sex" or "little sex" meant to you and to her.


I completely agree with the first paragraph. I have some experience with that, as my ex claimed conservatism in limiting our sexual activity prior to marriage. It was a lot of "I want to save some things for after" and then "well, I said I would but I did not know it would be like that" when the time came.

However, that is still a poor excuse for just cutting out sex. Marriage is a commitment - a promise beyond like and dislike. A person might not know how much he or she likes sex. But that person certainly knows whether he or she has an "if I don't like it, it ain't happening" attitude. If a person gets married knowing they lack the ability to empathetically and cheerfully meet their spouse's need, they have no right to complain or withhold.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

southbound said:


> Good thoughts again. I guess neither of us gave it much "thought." I guess somewhere in the back of my mind I thought sex would be a normal part of the relationship and not something that always came in last place. I often wonder what her expectations were before we were married.


Well, to apply my analysis of the situation...

Her expectation should have been "by marrying him, I am agreeing, as his only legitimate sexual outlet, to accomodate his likes and dislikes which be very different from my own. I should not marry him if I do not love him enough and/or am too selfish to do so cheerfully, because he is expecting me to be good to my word."

The problem, again, seems to be that we are focusing only on matching likes and dislikes (which are important, to be sure) and forgetting about commitment.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

DTO said:


> Well, to apply my analysis of the situation...
> 
> Her expectation should have been "by marrying him, I am agreeing, as his only legitimate sexual outlet, to accomodate his likes and dislikes which be very different from my own. I should not marry him if I do not love him enough and/or am too selfish to do so cheerfully, because he is expecting me to be good to my word."
> 
> The problem, again, seems to be that we are focusing only on matching likes and dislikes (which are important, to be sure) and forgetting about commitment.


Good point about her being my only legitimate sexual outlet. 

It always amazed me when I read posts here about how some women do all the sexual things for their husband, even though they may not be in the mood, but do it to make him happy. that just shows a totally different attitude than my x wife had. I'm not saying that is what wives should do, but it amazes me that some have that attitude since my x was the total opposite.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hmmmmmm

I love my wife. Always have. I mean I REALLY LOVE HER. Always have. 

I don't know what love feels like to anyone else. I mean not really and truly at a deep level. I only know that for me it means:

I like to do nice things for my W. I WANT to do them. I don't do them because I expect her to "fill in the blank". And so I DO many nice things for her. Don't just want to - actually DO IT. In return I expect her to respect me, and I expect her to demonstrate that she loves me and is glad I am in her life. 

That's it. Respect and commitment. 

It isn't much - and yet it often seems like it is everything you could want from a partner. 




southbound said:


> Good point about her being my only legitimate sexual outlet.
> 
> It always amazed me when I read posts here about how some women do all the sexual things for their husband, even though they may not be in the mood, but do it to make him happy. that just shows a totally different attitude than my x wife had. I'm not saying that is what wives should do, but it amazes me that some have that attitude since my x was the total opposite.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I agree with this post.

I don't even like sex that much but Hubs does, so I "get into it" to make it fun & pleasurable for both of us.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I agree with this post.
> 
> I don't even like sex that much but Hubs does, so I "get into it" to make it fun & pleasurable for both of us.


It's all about the attitude. You have a good one IMO and you don't harbor any resentment because of the way you choose to look at it. Some people just can't get into that frame of mind though. 

I was talking to my W last night and trying to explain that I do things for her because it makes ME feel good to make her feel good. It's 50% because I want to make her feel good and 50% because it makes me feel good to do something she likes. That's the key really I think.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

SimplyAmorous pointed me in the direction of this thread - I hadn't noticed it...so here I am!
I have read the first few pages but not all 20!

It is human nature to be kind and considerate to others. When you love someone you do things to show them that you love them.
If you wife likes lillies, you buy her lillies....if she likes Christian Dior X fragrance, you buy it. If she likes having her head massaged you do it.
You do these things for HER....to show HER that you love and cherish her.

If she loves and cherishes you, she will automatically do/buy things for you that YOU like and want.

What if she doesn't? What if she is a receiver? Its all about ME ME ME?
You continue showing her unconditional love because you love her, but she never shows you love...the kind of love that YOU want to be shown.

Sooner or later you stop SHOWING her you love her. 
Its like a deposit/savings account in a bank....you are inspired by its ethics, the way it operates, the way it talks to you so you keep on saving with it.....over time you start thinking; yes, this is a good bank, I like it, the staff are very poilte to me and always offer me a coffee when I go in...but they NEVER pay me any interest on my investment.

You don't shut your account and you dont slander the bank, but you do STOP investing in it. 
What adds insult in injury is when the bank doesnt even notice....

Ditto marriage.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

7737 said:


> You don't shut your account and you dont slander the bank, but you do STOP investing in it.


To continue the analogy, when you stop investing in the account, you start being hit with an inactive account fee month after month until your initial investment is gone. 

Again, ditto marriage.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

This whole bank account thing is described in His Needs, Her Needs. It's essentially a love account. The more you do for your partner (in all things, not just sex) the higher your love account with them (the bank) should go. Vice versa, when you stop doing these things, or do hurtful things, the balance goes down. 

The higher the balance the better obviously.

I wish we could create a rate of interest on services provided for something like that for our spouses. I'm sure there are things which men really don't have any idea on how important theya re to their wives, and vice versa. For men, obviously sex would be one.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Kings - I'm afraid I disagree. You can have zillions in your 'love account' and continue investing all the time and still get no return.

Yes is works both ways. But there are far more 'female banks' that give no return than there are 'male banks'.

Hit the $100,000 mark and your bank (wife) might give you a coffee mug or a keyring, but never 'interest'...because there are banks (wifes) who simply don't understand that investors (both husbands and wives) need 'interest' (in the mans case sex) to continue investing.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

7737 said:


> Kings - I'm afraid I disagree. You can have zillions in your 'love account' and continue investing all the time and still get no return.
> 
> Yes is works both ways. But there are far more 'female banks' that give no return than there are 'male banks'.
> 
> Hit the $100,000 mark and your bank (wife) might give you a coffee mug or a keyring, but never 'interest'...because there are banks (wifes) who simply don't understand that investors (both husbands and wives) need 'interest' (in the mans case sex) to continue investing.


I never said that a higher account balance equates to a return on investment. That's a decision for your spouse/partner to make. The only thing you can control is how high/low the balance goes.

I think what you are getting at really 7737 is that some 'banks' don't value somethings the same as others. For example, some women (using women because you mentioned them, but this obviously can apply to both sexes) may give you big credit for helping out around the house and doing some cleaning, cooking, etc. but not take away anything from your balance if you choose not to. Other women meanwhile would say that you share the house and should be doing those things anyways and give you little/no credit for doing these things but take away a lot of points if you don't.

The love account guidelines do apply in all relationships, just how the balance is increased and how you get to be 'rewared' for that balance is different.


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## Bafuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Im very confused by all of what you guys say. I think i'm in the situation right now. I need to have sex and my husband wont coz he says his mind is not into it because of problems we've had. We are trying to work things out but I understand t might take him a while to get over things and get into the mood again but its either I beg or go get it elsewhere?/


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Bafuna said:


> Im very confused by all of what you guys say. I think i'm in the situation right now. I need to have sex and my husband wont coz he says his mind is not into it because of problems we've had. We are trying to work things out but I understand t might take him a while to get over things and get into the mood again but its either I beg or go get it elsewhere?/


What are your 'problems' and how long ago were they?

If you are referring to something serious, like an affair, it could take months (or years) to work through it, especially if he was the victim.


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## Bafuna (Aug 13, 2012)

No, Ive been extremely faithful,he hasn't been, my weakness is I have a dangerous temper and he claims Ive caused him migraines coz one time I hit him with the closest thing availabe( a steel rod) when I discovered he was having an affair.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Bafuna said:


> No, Ive been extremely faithful,he hasn't been, my weakness is I have a dangerous temper and he claims Ive caused him migraines coz one time I hit him with the closest thing availabe( a steel rod) when I discovered he was having an affair.


I could see why his mind isn't into it.

Question is, why is yours? He cheats and you commit spousal abuse. Why are you wanting to stay together?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Bafuna said:


> No, Ive been extremely faithful,he hasn't been, my weakness is I have a dangerous temper and he claims Ive caused him migraines coz one time I hit him with the closest thing availabe( a steel rod) when I discovered he was having an affair.


Yeah, I also have to wonder why you two are together.

I'll be honest, no matter how many times he cheated, you got a huge free pass if he did not press charges on you. You did not just slap him or hit him, you beat him with a weapon.

If my ex had dared to do that, I would make it my goal to see she spent a long time in prison (not just jail). You need to get your anger under control before that becomes a possibility for you as well.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Bafuna said:


> No, Ive been extremely faithful,he hasn't been, my weakness is I have a dangerous temper and he claims Ive caused him migraines coz one time I hit him with the closest thing availabe( a steel rod) when I discovered he was having an affair.


He cheated on you, signifying a problem from the get go. And your response was to attack him with a STEEL rod, which caused him lasting brain damage.

And you're seriously wondering why he won't sleep with you?


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

I only read the first page. I agree with jaquen and silent begonias. What you said on the first page is good. Don't defend yourselves, you don't have to. It is good what you said.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks Sara Ann!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

On the note of husband doing things gestures or gifts in the "hopes of sex" thats just as insulting and unignified to me as having sex in the "hopes" that outside of bed you will get a "prize" for it ..

All the things we do for each other should be strictly IMHO because it makes you feel good to see the other person happy or to ligthen each others burdens..

If my husband is dragging himself to the store and thinking "I better get her some flowers for a chance she might have sex tonight then I dont want the flowers..To me thats just playing games and using manipulation not given freely no strings attached and its anti climactic...I can buy my own flowers and not owe anyone anything.And I can have sex with him because we both want to have sex without needign flowers...And he can bring me flowers because he wants me to know he was thinking about me and hopefully brighten my day and that a "good trade" off right there..

Every now and then I buy him red licorice becasue its one of his favorites and it makes him feel good I thought of him ..hes Im sure not thinking 'oh great I hope she doesnt expect sex thats usually the only time she gets that for me" becasue women (and men) arent stupid if every time i bought him red licorice later that night I initiated sex he would soon figure it out..and hopefully say "you dont have to buy me licorice to "get me " to want sex"..AS well as just because you buy me licorice isnt a gaurantee I'll be in the mood later ...IOW it doesnt give me an 'erection " for you to do something kind and thoughful...OF course he feels cared for ..but thats in and of itself separate...even if "overall" those things "assist" in keeping love alive which "in general' lends to desire..


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## CaptVere (Aug 27, 2012)

As a new member and a guy in a sexless marriage, I agree with this message. I've been working all this year on trying to get my wife to have any desire for me to no avail. It doesn't matter how many 'talks' we have, how many muscles I have, how many chores I do, how often I do or do not pressure her, how often I do or do not talk to her, how alpha I am, how beta I am, etc... I've tried it all. You simple cannot talk someone into desiring you. That has to come from them. I have learned a lot about sexless marriages over the course of this year and I will share some of that in this forum, but this premise is key. So much advice that is given is pointless until you answer a few basic questions: 1) How much were they into you in the first place, and 2) Are they into you now?. If they were never into you, you are on a completely futile quest. If they aren't into you now, you still aren't going to talk them into it. But, if they were really into you at some point and that got lost, then you can start to do some repair work and maybe you can get some of it back. Talking has gotten me nowhere. It got me a bit more duty sex in spurts, but that's it. Talk is cheap. It's all about actions (for both of you) and what actions you take will vary quite a bit on the root causes, your situation, and simply how much they are actually into you. I will say, that begging, pleading, or doing more to make them comfortable is almost NEVER the answer. Sometimes making them too comfortable is in fact the biggest problem.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> On the note of husband doing things gestures or gifts in the "hopes of sex" thats just as insulting and unignified to me as having sex in the "hopes" that outside of bed you will get a "prize" for it ..



Yes, because we all know that the logical corollary to that ideal is completely false. No woman would ever fall out of the mood because her husband had failed with a gesture of gift when it was expected. Birthdays and anniversaries come to mind.... 

--Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> On the note of husband doing things gestures or gifts in the "hopes of sex" thats just as insulting and unignified to me as having sex in the "hopes" that outside of bed you will get a "prize" for it ..
> 
> All the things we do for each other should be strictly IMHO because it makes you feel good to see the other person happy or to ligthen each others burdens..
> 
> ...


:iagree: Hitting like was not enough.

I honestly always find it amazing how women just seem to know the motivation of men when we do things for them. I did fall into the trap at one point of doing things with the hope that it would lead to sex. Things just got worse. When I changed my mindset to doing things because as a man and a partner I needed to do my share, and I wanted to do something nice for her, things quickly turned around. She just knew, though probably it was from some of the follow up actions. Perhaps by taking the pressure off her, it allowed her to really appreciate what I was in fact doing. Whatever - the results have been good.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

There were things my husband did in the beginning of our relationship that made me VERY sexually attracted to him. When those things started tapering off, so did the sex.

It's like this. When we first met, I was bar tending and was very in shape. As a bartender, I had to keep up with my appearance. This is what physically attracted him to me. If I were to put on 50-60 lbs, should I still expect him to be just as physically attracted to me? Yes, there are things that happen to our appearance over time that we have no control of.....but to an extent, we have control of our appearance. We can work with what we've got and look the best we possibly can under the circumstances. I feel like this is important not only for my own self-confidence, but for my husband to still find me physically attractive. This takes a little bit of work. I could easily let myself go and say he should just accept me regardless because he loves me and we're married.....but we all know it doesn't exactly work that way.

Likewise, there are certain things my husband has to do to keep me interested sexually. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and no, not everyone works that way, but I do. I'm not saying he has to do xyz for me to give him sex. But for me to truly be turned on, yes, it requires a little bit of effort on his part.....i'm sure it's no different for him. I'm sure there are things I could do, or not do, that would turn him off to sex with me.....or at least make sex not as exciting and enjoyable as it could be. He can't just simply "show up for the party" and *always* expect me to be ready to go. Sometimes, yes.....but not all the time. If there isn't a little bit of passion on his part, no intimate moments outside of sex, then i'm not as likely to be excited about sex. 

If it comes to the point that one has to beg or gravel, there's something going on in the marriage that needs to be addressed. But to assume that sex is effortless is not true......


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kl84 said:


> I could easily let myself go and say he should just accept me regardless because he loves me and we're married.....but we all know it doesn't exactly work that way.



Unfortunately no, we "all" don't know that. There is a nearly limitless line of spouses who've let their bodies go completely to crap, and truly believe their husband/wife is suppose to just accept it because they're married.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Unfortunately no, we "all" don't know that. There is a nearly limitless line of spouses who've let their bodies go completely to crap, and truly believe their husband/wife is suppose to just accept it because they're married.


I am currently pregnant and have gained a LOT of weight this time. Of course my husband notices it but he still accepts me. If I did nothing to even try to keep myself healthy and in shape and just continued gaining weight, I doubt he would accept it. Of course he would still accept *me* as a person but he would not accept the weight gain. Likewise, I would not just accept it if he gained a lot of weight, either. Of course people go through things in life that can cause weight gain. Before he met me, he slipped into a depression because his father died and he gained a lot of weight. But as soon as he kicked the depression, he lost it. No, we wouldn't leave each other if we gained weight, but honestly speaking, it would not be attractive. Some people don't mind their spouse putting on extra pounds so maybe I shouldn't have thrown in the "all". But *most* would prefer a healthy spouse that at least attempts to keep their weight at a normal range. 

In the course of a lifetime, our appearance will change. Things like wrinkles and balding, we have no control over..... gaining 100 lbs is definitely within our control. Personally, I would not feel attractive if I gained a ton of weight. I would feel bad about myself. That alone would affect our marriage. But I would be a fool to think I could gain 50 lbs and my husband would find me just as physically attractive as when I am in my ideal weight range......


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

kl84 said:


> There were things my husband did in the beginning of our relationship that made me VERY sexually attracted to him. When those things started tapering off, so did the sex.
> 
> It's like this. When we first met, I was bar tending and was very in shape. As a bartender, I had to keep up with my appearance. This is what physically attracted him to me. If I were to put on 50-60 lbs, should I still expect him to be just as physically attracted to me? Yes, there are things that happen to our appearance over time that we have no control of.....but to an extent, we have control of our appearance. We can work with what we've got and look the best we possibly can under the circumstances. I feel like this is important not only for my own self-confidence, but for my husband to still find me physically attractive. This takes a little bit of work. I could easily let myself go and say he should just accept me regardless because he loves me and we're married.....but we all know it doesn't exactly work that way.
> 
> ...


I MUST be a guy in a woman's body.

Because, I don't care if my husband didn't even acknowledge my physical presence in the house, if he up and said, I want sex...I don't know if I could get my clothes off fast enough!

I don't care if we had the biggest knock-down, drag out on this earth...I AM ALWAYS READY FOR SEX. Always have been, always will be...now, if it would just "work" like it used to...but that's for another time/thread.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I MUST be a guy in a woman's body.
> 
> Because, I don't care if my husband didn't even acknowledge my physical presence in the house, if he up and said, I want sex...I don't know if I could get my clothes off fast enough!
> 
> I don't care if we had the biggest knock-down, drag out on this earth...I AM ALWAYS READY FOR SEX. Always have been, always will be...now, if it would just "work" like it used to...but that's for another time/thread.


I wish it were that simple for me because honestly i'm left feeling sexually frustrated, even if I am the one doing the rejecting.....


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## trying_to_rejuvenate (Aug 21, 2012)

kl84 said:


> honestly i'm left feeling sexually frustrated, even if I am the one doing the rejecting.....


very strange ! is there any logic? or is it one of those irrational duplicity that some women e.g. my wife has


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

trying_to_rejuvenate said:


> very strange ! is there any logic? or is it one of those irrational duplicity that some women e.g. my wife has


I've posted about it before but basically my husband and I weren't connecting on a romantic level. It's actually quite common that women will turn down sex, even if they want it. 

I wanted sex with him, but I wanted him to put in a little effort at turning me on. Otherwise, my mind just couldn't be focused enough. There are plenty of times that he doesn't have to do a thing and i'm just ready to go. But if it's always just "hey let's have sex" and no sort of anticipation up during the day, the excitement just isn't there. I have to be able to connect with my husband once in a while. Yes, I understand we both get busy with our own agendas and what not so it would be selfish to expect him to always jump through hurdles to "get me in the mood".... but I was doing it for him occasionally.... the occasional raunchy text, picture message of my boobs, etc.... just something to "think about" at work so he'd be excited to come home.... I'd like something like that once in a while. Then the everyday sex would be much more enjoyable because we are connecting as husband and wife, not just two people maintaining a house and raising kids....

Not saying all women are like that.... but for me, i'd like a little more effort. I would definitely reciprocate.....


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

kl84--You are looking for the same thing many women probably are--to be romanced, treated as a beautiful creature and intensely desired...all day long. I have given advice to young pups on this site to start their sexual advances first thing in the morning and continue it all day so by the time you get to private time, the odds are in their favor. Here's where it can go wrong:

If its bedtime and I say "how about sex" and she says "too tired", that would be, I guess a pretty easy rejection to live with. On the other hand;

I spoon with her briefly before I get up with usual morning wood...
If I approach from behind and wrap my arms around her while she pours the morning coffee...with parting grind...
If I peek into the bathroom while she's getting ready and comment about how hot she is...
If I kiss her goodbye and pull her back to me before letting her break away...
If I send her a text to let her know I am thinking of her...
If I handle a parenting thing she usually does but somehow eluded her without mention...
If I call her at lunchtime and encourage her for a big meeting...
If I cuddle with her on the couch after we are back from work and talk about the day...
If I manage kids schedules so we are together for dinner...and alone afterwards...

And, THEN I get shot down. Those rejections leave a mark. Mostly because I am 7 or 8 steps invested. Those steps don't just flow from me naturally, they take an effort and some consciousness. They are not done just for sex either. They seem like the things loving couples should want to do for each other. If my wife meets me, reciprocates and the intimacy is there, I notice the emotional support becomes far more natural and just flows.

I think the kind of connection you are looking for is in a man (whether he knows it or not) and just needs to be unlocked.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kl84 said:


> I am currently pregnant and have gained a LOT of weight this time. Of course my husband notices it but he still accepts me. If I did nothing to even try to keep myself healthy and in shape and just continued gaining weight, I doubt he would accept it. Of course he would still accept *me* as a person but he would not accept the weight gain. Likewise, I would not just accept it if he gained a lot of weight, either. Of course people go through things in life that can cause weight gain. Before he met me, he slipped into a depression because his father died and he gained a lot of weight. But as soon as he kicked the depression, he lost it. No, we wouldn't leave each other if we gained weight, but honestly speaking, it would not be attractive. Some people don't mind their spouse putting on extra pounds so maybe I shouldn't have thrown in the "all". But *most* would prefer a healthy spouse that at least attempts to keep their weight at a normal range.
> 
> In the course of a lifetime, our appearance will change. Things like wrinkles and balding, we have no control over..... gaining 100 lbs is definitely within our control. Personally, I would not feel attractive if I gained a ton of weight. I would feel bad about myself. That alone would affect our marriage. But I would be a fool to think I could gain 50 lbs and my husband would find me just as physically attractive as when I am in my ideal weight range......


You really need to copy and paste this post over at this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...do-you-have-your-too-fat-conversation-20.html

We could use more perspectives like this in the debate.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

Cre8ify said:


> kl84--You are looking for the same thing many women probably are--to be romanced, treated as a beautiful creature and intensely desired...all day long. I have given advice to young pups on this site to start their sexual advances first thing in the morning and continue it all day so by the time you get to private time, the odds are in their favor. Here's where it can go wrong:
> 
> If its bedtime and I say "how about sex" and she says "too tired", that would be, I guess a pretty easy rejection to live with. On the other hand;
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Totally. These are the kind of things I am talking about. No, they don't come totally natural to most, even to me. You have to make a conscious decision to do them. They require effort, but VERY little effort in proportion to the benefits that can be reaped.


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## Minuit à Paris (Sep 3, 2012)

Thankyou OP your post is a good reminder.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

IN a Normal loving relationship that is true!! But what do you do when you do those thing and it does not heat up in the bedroom??


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Sporto said:


> IN a Normal loving relationship that is true!! But what do you do when you do those thing and it does not heat up in the bedroom??


Perhaps then it's unfortunately time to start planning an exit strategy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KL,
I call this the "you're important" theme. 

There are many ways to convey that - some of them overlap with the "I'm important" theme as well. Fitness is like that. When we married we joined our hearts, minds, our DNA, finances, AND in a very real way our bodies. 

Think about two different patterns:
1. I walk in the door from work still on my cell phone, and bringing some tension and stuff from work. I am "friendly" but not "happy" and immediately start complaining about my day. 

OR

2. I walk in the door from work, cell phone is always in my pocket. I stop, give her a big smile, a warm hello and a long full body hug. I radiate happiness. I ask about her day. She makes a point to tell me one or two positive things/funny things. I respond in kind. And then go get changed. 

I don't know what (1) means. I do know that (2) means: You are more important than anything that happened today. I like spending time with you, and am happy to be home. I consciously choose to pick the good from my day to mention at the start of our time together. 

This doesn't mean that I don't mention - the bad/ugly parts later. Though I may be more inclined towards the humorous treatment of them, than the tense/angry recall of them. She "knows" what my days are like, and vice versa. But this is not an emotional dumping exercise. 






kl84 said:


> There were things my husband did in the beginning of our relationship that made me VERY sexually attracted to him. When those things started tapering off, so did the sex.
> 
> It's like this. When we first met, I was bar tending and was very in shape. As a bartender, I had to keep up with my appearance. This is what physically attracted him to me. If I were to put on 50-60 lbs, should I still expect him to be just as physically attracted to me? Yes, there are things that happen to our appearance over time that we have no control of.....but to an extent, we have control of our appearance. We can work with what we've got and look the best we possibly can under the circumstances. I feel like this is important not only for my own self-confidence, but for my husband to still find me physically attractive. This takes a little bit of work. I could easily let myself go and say he should just accept me regardless because he loves me and we're married.....but we all know it doesn't exactly work that way.
> 
> ...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

mina said:


> Norajane: in every relationship someone leads and someone follows. that is just nature. I see it in dogs, horses and in people. in most modern marriages women work to become Alpha. they lead. they take their husband's testicles and they put them in a jar. Not saying you specifically do that but just as an observation I see all around me.
> 
> Do you think men are not aware of this emasculation that is taking place? They are and it makes them resentful! and they feel like less and less of a man the longer it goes on and the worse he is treated. And what about us, the women? WE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER! We want our men to be MEN and the only way they can be MEN is to lead and be the alpha of our world.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your very clear explanation. Very thoughtful and informative.


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