# Confused and Frustrated



## Loving Husband/Father (Sep 20, 2012)

My wife and I have been together for 15 yrs, married for almost 10. We have three boys ages 10, 9, and 6. I am lucky enough to make enough money she can be a stay at home mom. She is very involved in PTA, and loves to volunteer. However, when it comes to our sex life, she says she just isn't interested. We used to have sex once or twice a day. When we started having kids it slowed down. She is always too tired and says that I pressure her into sex so she isn't interested. Every other aspect of our marriage is perfect. She will text me once and awhile to tell me we are going to have "alone time" that evening, but when I get home and the daily routine is over, she is too tired. I am always telling her how beautiful she is and how much I love her. I know she isn't cheating, so that isn't an issue. Just not sure what to do. We have sex (if I am lucky, no pun intended) maybe once a month and have gone as much as four months without. Advice?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Loving Husband/Father said:


> Every other aspect of our marriage is perfect.


I always find it interesting when people in sexless marriages say this. It's weird how they seem to universally believe it.

Anyway, I'll just mention that the book Married Man Sex Life Primer worked well for me and helped me to turn around 10 years of once a month sex. You may want to give it a try. I downloaded it on my iphone and read it there. The book is not really about sex, it's about attraction and male/female interactions.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

She isn't too busy. She's not attracted to you.

I know you said she isn't having an affair. But, unless you have investigated and know that she isn't (including online stuff) then you need to rule it out via investigation. Once you've done that, you need to make yourself more attractive to her.

Check out Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. for great information on how to do that.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I always find it interesting when people in sexless marriages say this. It's weird how they seem to universally believe it.


I agree. It reminds me of the old joke, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Loving Husband/Father said:


> My wife and I have been together for 15 yrs, married for almost 10. We have three boys ages 10, 9, and 6. I am lucky enough to make enough money she can be a stay at home mom. She is very involved in PTA, and loves to volunteer. However, when it comes to our sex life, she says she just isn't interested. We used to have sex once or twice a day. When we started having kids it slowed down. She is always too tired and says that I pressure her into sex so she isn't interested. Every other aspect of our marriage is perfect. She will text me once and awhile to tell me we are going to have "alone time" that evening, but when I get home and the daily routine is over, she is too tired. I am always telling her how beautiful she is and how much I love her. I know she isn't cheating, so that isn't an issue. Just not sure what to do. We have sex (if I am lucky, no pun intended) maybe once a month and have gone as much as four months without. Advice?


My first piece of advice is to tell her that unless she KNOWs she'll follow through on her 'alone time' texts, to stop texting you those sort of messages. That's like torture. If she wouldn't stop them, I'd block them or just immediately delete them without a response.

Secondly, start doing what you can to ignore sex. Try and get it off your mind. If you have a hobby you like to do, do it. Stop wasting time trying to get some and use the time to make yourself happy instead. Odds are, you feel like you've wasted time in your day trying to get some, or revving yourself up for another attempt, only to be shot down. Been there, done that, and you start to hate yourself for even giving yourself hope.

Seperate yourself from her by doing a hobby, visiting friends, etc. Do something else. When you aren't 'pressuring' her anymore, she'll eventually pick up on it. It'll likely take months, or maybe even more than that for you to hear about it from her, but it'll happen. She'll notice it fairly soon, yet she won't say much at first because she'll likely enjoy the space she's getting.

In the meantime, treat her like a friend. I mean really, that's what she is. What is a marriage without sex? If you get along, it's basically roommates living together and paying bills. In your case, also raising some kids. So treat her like a friend. Do your share of stuff, but that's it. She's a stay at home mom, yet you have kids who are all school age. So she can handle the household chores. You work, she can work at home. after work and weekends/days off, you guys can share the chores. Do your share, but let her do her's. 

I'd even cut back on some of her stuff which she buys. You aren't getting your needs met, why should she? I don't like tit-for-tat scenarios, but sometimes it's justified. Having a spouse tell you that she sees no need for sex (which is basically what she's doing) is just wrong and hurtful. Unless she's given you her blessing to have an affair (IE open marriage) then she has an obligation to try and make sex part of the marriage. If she doesn't, then you don't have an obligation to go beyond your own duties either.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

"...I'd even cut back on some of her stuff which she buys. You aren't getting your needs met, why should she? I don't like tit-for-tat scenarios, but sometimes it's justified..."

I totally disagree on this mindset. Its childish and vindictive.

the 'no more mr. nice guy' afficianados are going to come out of the woodwork here. Consider carefully before you start playing headgames to 'alter the conditions' of 'the game'. Frankly it is my biggest problem with this board. I also admit some claim fantastic success with it. What 'success' means in that regard I cant say. Shrug. anyway...

Jeeze you guys (maybe) haven't spent much time with just the 2 of you lately (married 10 years with a 10/9/6 years old...). When was the last time you had a weekend away.. just the 2 of you?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I also disagree with a wife who seemingly refuses to look at their sexlife and leave the burden on the husband.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

..and your response is to 'cut back on the stuff she buys'?

sorry charlie. Let the real adults work it out.

"..If she doesn't, then you don't have an obligation to go beyond your own duties either."

Keeping score? It doesnt work that way. OK, for you - maybe it does work that way. Pretty depressing - Sorry.


----------



## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

anotherguy said:


> ..and your response is to 'cut back on the stuff she buys'?
> 
> sorry charlie. Let the real adults work it out.
> 
> ...


I'm a bit torn on this too.

I don't really think it has anything to do with material things at this point. I have had success with the Go out, enjoy friends approach. It made her eventually come around and start to ask (instead of me bringing it up) what was wrong. I told her "Nothing was wrong. I was just looking for outlets since she seemed to have little interest in spending any intimate time with me"

I do think that it's important that the LD spouse knows that a part of marriage is about sex. It's also about a promise that we won't have sex with someone else. Guys like sex (women too) and if you want to keep us around guess what?

Sure, having young kids is a challenge and is tiring but if you don't take care of the needs of the marriage, you eventually won't have one (and I'm not just talking about sex)

The youngest one is about school age so maybe the answer is she gets a part time job. She can use the money for a housekeeper perhaps so she won't be so tired in the future


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> I totally disagree on this mindset. Its childish and vindictive.


Don't forget effective. It's childish, vindictive, and effective. If the OP wants to be mature, selfless, and sexless, that is his choice. He can take comfort knowing he gets a gold star from you.



anotherguy said:


> Consider carefully before you start playing headgames to 'alter the conditions' of 'the game'. Frankly it is my biggest problem with this board. I also admit some claim fantastic success with it. What 'success' means in that regard I cant say. Shrug. anyway...


Success means sex. You should also consider that most of the time, the men who suffer in sexless marriages have tried to do the mature, beta approach of rewarding the wife for her imposing celibacy on him. And it doesn't work. What works is to make her feel the sting of an unsatisfactory marriage just as keenly as her husband. That can motivate women to change their behaviors.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Success means sex.


Great. Sex with a woman I have had to manipulate and apply emotional and social pressure against. (and financial if kingsfan has his way). Oh joy. Alpha-male, game-theory cis-boom-bah! More nookie, more nookie, rah rah rah! (but my life is now a constant charade and endless mire of tit-for-tat)



PHTlump said:


> ...rewarding the wife for her imposing celibacy on him....


Rewarding? who said anything about rewarding? 

Here we go. Sorry - I've had this debate / seen this movie too many times. Not worth trying to convert the convinced. (I suppose that means both me, and yoose.)

respectfully, me.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Loving Husband/Father said:


> My wife and I have been together for 15 yrs, married for almost 10. We have three boys ages 10, 9, and 6. I am lucky enough to make enough money she can be a stay at home mom. She is very involved in PTA, and loves to volunteer. However, when it comes to our sex life, she says she just isn't interested. We used to have sex once or twice a day. When we started having kids it slowed down. She is always too tired and says that I pressure her into sex so she isn't interested. Every other aspect of our marriage is perfect. She will text me once and awhile to tell me we are going to have "alone time" that evening, but when I get home and the daily routine is over, she is too tired. I am always telling her how beautiful she is and how much I love her. I know she isn't cheating, so that isn't an issue. Just not sure what to do. We have sex (if I am lucky, no pun intended) maybe once a month and have gone as much as four months without. Advice?


If she has the time & energy to "volunteer & PTA" then she has the time & energy to have sex with her husband.

My teens were HARDER to raise than your children's ages so she could get busier for the next or 12 yrs. or so.

I always feel bad for the husbands that come here with (almost) sexless wives after the children are born.

I hope she agrees to marriage counseling.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Lets take her at her word... "she is tired by the time she has done all the activities she has done throughout the day (which is probably a lot), cooked dinner, cleaned the kitchen, got the kids to finish their homework and finally got them to bed." Don't take this wrong, but are you participating in any of the kitchen chores, homework with the kids and getting them to bed?

I find sex starts not in the bedroom but in the kitchen... I know you probably work hard, but so does she and her work day likely starts when yours does and ends way past your work day. 

She may simply just be tired... See what happens next time you help out. See if that does not get a spark.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

drerio said:


> Lets take her at her word... "she is tired by the time she has done all the activities she has done throughout the day (which is probably a lot), cooked dinner, cleaned the kitchen, got the kids to finish their homework and finally got them to bed." Don't take this wrong, but are you participating in any of the kitchen chores, homework with the kids and getting them to bed?
> 
> I find sex starts not in the bedroom but in the kitchen... I know you probably work hard, but so does she and her work day likely starts when yours does and ends way past your work day.
> 
> She may simply just be tired... See what happens next time you help out. See if that does not get a spark.


Dangerous thinking. Don't let her see you resting or looking lazy. But also never forget that women are not attracted to servants. Help by being useful outside the kitchen. Don't come home and play Xbox either.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Dangerous thinking. Don't let her see you resting or looking lazy. But also never forget that women are not attracted to servants. Help by being useful outside the kitchen. Don't come home and play Xbox either.


I got the Xbox, but really this is 2012, not 1950... I don't see anything dangerous with helping out. I cook half the meals and when I don't, I clean up after dinner. And yes I fix the washer when breaks along with plumbing issues. I've been married 18+ years and our sex life is still sizzling. So, I don't feel like domestic help and my wife does not see me that way. Simply don't agree with this troglodyte thinking.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Read up on this forum. There are probably a thousand cases of men doing all the housework who are sexless and confused because they do so much and get no payback. Biology hasn't changed since 1950.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Read up on this forum. There are probably a thousand cases of men doing all the housework who are sexless and confused because they do so much and get no payback. Biology hasn't changed since 1950.


I didn't say do all the house work... I said help. I'm sure this forum represent a statically significant analysis?  Well count myself as one who does 1/2 work so my wife has energy for us. And, she does. 

There are probably countless factors that can be attributed to those "thousands of men" in their sexless marriage, but I would be reluctant to assign this factor with a large amount of weight to some non-distinct biological assumption. 

I simply suggest to the OP, to eliminate this as a factor by helping out. So I don't want to jack his thread with some adage of domestication = non attractive wimp.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Read up on this forum. There are probably a thousand cases of men doing all the housework who are sexless and confused because they do so much and get no payback. Biology hasn't changed since 1950.


Men helping around the house or in the kitchen does not mean that the wife will automatically lose respect for their husbands. I think the "alpha", "beta", "sex rank" ideas are overstated and oversimplify situations. I'm sure there are women who see their husbands doing housework and lose respect for them as a result. However, I think the majority of cases of wives losing respect/attraction is related to the personality traits of the man. If a man is a pushover, then most likely him trying to take on additional housework could be looked at as him being desperate and needy. However, a stronger minded man who does not take undeserved abuse from his wife would be perceived in a different light by his wife if he would help her out more around the house. 

When I can help my wife out with household issues and cook dinner from time to time, my efforts are appreciated and usually "rewarded".


----------



## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

One size fits all - NOT. MMSL and the 180 may be what works in many instances, but not all instances. And even where it works, it is not necessarily the only thing that could have worked.

To the OP, if she is texting you or otherwise building up some expectations, then saying "she's too tired", obviously its not about that. Perhaps she has some expectations too. Are you texting her back? Keeping the flirting going? A kiss and a grope when you get home, then immediately focus on the family stuff? There is a fine line between pressuring/pestering her and flirting.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Actually what I was emphasizing was to stay off the Xbox and work on getting things done. Just not necessarily doing her work all the time. I cook and clean sometimes too. Just like any other husband. But it's really only when I don't have other stuff to do. I try not to ever let her see me being lazy and I think that's key. I think that most times when women complain about not getting help, what they're really mad about is they see themselves working while their man is sitting on the couch.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually what I was emphasizing was to stay off the Xbox and work on getting things done. Just not necessarily doing her work all the time. I cook and clean sometimes too. Just like any other husband. But it's really only when I don't have other stuff to do. I try not to ever let her see me being lazy and I think that's key. I think that most times when women complain about not getting help, what they're really mad about is they see themselves working while their man is sitting on the couch.


Got it... I agree. "Get me another 'belch' beer babe" is not a turn on


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> Great. Sex with a woman I have had to manipulate and apply emotional and social pressure against. (and financial if kingsfan has his way). Oh joy. Alpha-male, game-theory cis-boom-bah! More nookie, more nookie, rah rah rah! (but my life is now a constant charade and endless mire of tit-for-tat)


It amazes me how brainwashed some people can be. Men standing up for themselves are actually diabolical manipulators. Women are far too stupid to understand the requirements of a marriage. Men must treat them like children. It your wife cries, she's either hungry or tired. If a husband requires that his needs be given as much priority as his wife's, it's an outrage. Women can't possibly be expected to meet their husbands' needs. These men should know that their job as husbands is to serve their wives in any way these women require. And keep quiet about it. Don't forget that. Beta for the win. Oprah would be proud.

Sorry, but I have too much respect for women to recommend that they be treated like infants. I think women are capable of understanding what men's needs are and I think they're capable of meeting those needs. I think women are capable of thinking of others as well as themselves. But, I guess I'm in the minority.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

drerio said:


> Lets take her at her word... "she is tired by the time she has done all the activities she has done throughout the day (which is probably a lot), cooked dinner, cleaned the kitchen, got the kids to finish their homework and finally got them to bed." Don't take this wrong, but are you participating in any of the kitchen chores, homework with the kids and getting them to bed?


This reminds me of a comedian I saw one time talking about how lazy he was. He had showered, dressed, and gone to the post office. He was capable of nothing else that day.

The OP's wife is a SAHM with children who are in school during the day. If she requires help keeping house, then she's either eating bon bons on the couch during the day, or she's spending her energies on outside activities that don't contribute to the family. If she is a competent woman, she should be able to keep the house clean and put dinner on the table without collapsing of exhaustion.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

drerio said:


> I didn't say do all the house work... I said help. I'm sure this forum represent a statically significant analysis?  Well count myself as one who does 1/2 work so my wife has energy for us. And, she does.


The most common situation in the threads WorkingOnMe referenced is that the husband wants sex, but his wife is too tired for sex. So the husband increases his share of the chores around the house to help out and give his wife more energy for sex. But it doesn't work. So, the husband increases his share further in the hopes that his wife will want sex. Over time, the husband ends up doing practically everything, but his wife is still too tired for sex with him. These threads are common.

I can think of no threads off hand where the husband is in a sexless marriage, picks up a little of the household chores, and then the frequency of sex takes off. Maybe it happens. I just can't think of any examples from this forum.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> This reminds me of a comedian I saw one time talking about how lazy he was. He had showered, dressed, and gone to the post office. He was capable of nothing else that day.
> 
> The OP's wife is a SAHM with children who are in school during the day. If she requires help keeping house, then she's either eating bon bons on the couch during the day, or she's spending her energies on outside activities that don't contribute to the family. If she is a competent woman, she should be able to keep the house clean and put dinner on the table without collapsing of exhaustion.


I know because being involved in PTA, doing volunteer work (described by OP) and being a SAHW&M is not real work, a yea sure Ok. 

I'm sticking with suggestion and do not want to jack this thread with this inane argument.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> It amazes me how brainwashed some people can be. Men standing up for themselves are actually diabolical manipulators. Women are far too stupid to understand the requirements of a marriage. Men must treat them like children. It your wife cries, she's either hungry or tired. If a husband requires that his needs be given as much priority as his wife's, it's an outrage. Women can't possibly be expected to meet their husbands' needs. These men should know that their job as husbands is to serve their wives in any way these women require. And keep quiet about it. Don't forget that. Beta for the win. Oprah would be proud.
> 
> Sorry, but I have too much respect for women to recommend that they be treated like infants. I think women are capable of understanding what men's needs are and I think they're capable of meeting those needs. I think women are capable of thinking of others as well as themselves. But, I guess I'm in the minority.


brainwashed? thats silly. Mens jobs is to serve women? Thats silly too.

I simply thnk that establishing a relationship based on an accounting of 'transactions' - weighing sex against bringing home the bacon or doing laundry - I will only scratch your back if you scratch mine is a dead end for a fulfilling cooperative relationship. Im not cutting the grass or buying a new car for the family until you blow me. Greeaaaat. See? we are making progress now. 

my ONLY pause here, and I admit it - is that I acknowledge I am probably one of the lucky ones. I also freely admit I may be beside myself if I had a wife that never wanted sex and would probably be willing to try anything even stupid ones. Its far too easy to pass judgement on others in this respect.

BUT. I definitely feel that the game playing method is decidedly wrong headed - and people are too quick to suggest it without knowing a damn thing about any background. I agree with prior posts suggesting she probably is tired. I dont buy into the fridged, controlling, alpha women myth. I'd be very interested to know what the complete work/home routine is between these 2. Frankly without it - everyone is simply barking at the sky.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

drerio said:


> I know because being involved in PTA, doing volunteer work (described by OP) and being a SAHW&M is not real work, a yea sure Ok.
> 
> I'm sticking with suggestion and do not want to jack this thread with this inane argument.


How many hours a day does the PTA require? If it's like my children's school, it probably takes about an hour a week for those who volunteer. If she's spending hours a day on it, she's doing it wrong.

I don't know what kind of volunteer work she does. Most vounteer work doesn't require a significant amount of time each day.

The OP's wife should be a wife and mother first. If her being involved in PTA, or doing volunteer work, means that she can't keep her house clean, feed her family, and provide for her husband's needs, then she needs to give up one, or all, of her outside activities.

I'm simply stating the obvious. Being a SAHM isn't necessarily easy. But, it doesn't take 40 hours a week. If it does, you're doing it wrong. To suggest otherwise is, indeed, inane.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> brainwashed? thats silly. Mens jobs is to serve women? Thats silly too.


I agree that it's silly. But you seem to object mightily when someone suggests that a man match his wife's level of effort in his marriage.



anotherguy said:


> I simply thnk that establishing a relationship based on an accounting of 'transactions' - weighing sex against bringing home the bacon or doing laundry - I will only scratch your back if you scratch mine is a dead end for a fulfilling cooperative relationship.


Not at all. Every relationship is a transactional partnership. That's why people get married. If you think your marriage is an exception, you're fooling yourself.

I'll propose the standard thought experiment. Quit your job tomorrow and inform your wife that you will now spend all your energies becoming an XBox champion. It won't take long for your wife to fall out of love with you. It won't happen in a day, or a week. But it will happen. Does that mean your wife is manipulating you for your paycheck? No.



anotherguy said:


> my ONLY pause here, and I admit it - is that I acknowledge I am probably one of the lucky ones. I also freely admit I may be beside myself if I had a wife that never wanted sex and would probably be willing to try anything even stupid ones. Its far too easy to pass judgement on others in this respect.


You are, indeed, lucky. Of course, you may have prepared well. Men who wisely choose their wives tend to get luckier than men who don't. However, there's no completely accurate prediction of how someone will act in 10 or 20 years.


----------



## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

This topic is always hotly debated. A lot of you think it's ridiculous that one could honestly believe they have a great marriage that is only missing sex. The fact is, there are a lot of us out there who have really wonderful, emotionally satisfying partnerships with awesome women who just are not interested in sex as much as we'd like them to be. Your first response is "she's not attracted to you, man up, take something away from her." What is that advice based on? You don't know us. You don't know our spouses. You don't know the little intricacies that make our marriage what it is. We're on this board because it is frustrating when you don't get laid as much as you'd like and we need people to talk to about it and we'd like to find people in similar situations who can offer constructive advice. 

Trenton and drerio offer good advice. That's the kind of stuff most of in this situation are looking for. 

There's a time and place for the 180 and all of that stuff, but this is not it. Doing a 180 and changing behaviors and all of that in this situation could be a terrible decision.

I recognize we all won't agree here, but I'm with a anotherguy on this one.

Very respectfully, C123


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Being a SAHM isn't necessarily easy...But, it doesn't take 40 hours a week.


Im not being combative with you. really, Im not.

But this?

My wife works part time. She also shoulders the bulk of the heavy lifting on the domestic front. Getting the kids ready for school, making lunches, picking the place up, dealing with them after school, making dinner, helping with homework, doing laundry, baths, boo-boos, playing games with them, taking them places - soccer - swimming - gymnastics - piano - softball - basketball, playing referee with squabbles, supervising computer and TV.. getting ready for bed, doing their hair, reading with them....you know...parenting. I help with this too and 500 other things on thedomestic front. Yeah it eases a bit as they get older - but not much.

If you are 'only' spending 40 hours a week - then that, I say - is doing it wrong. Slacker. 

My wife is a freaking tornado and let me tell you - it never ends. I work hard - leave for work in the morning a bit after 7 and get home a bit after 7.. (yeah... sometimes wasting time on this board!.. as mental diversion...) but honest Im not sure I could do what she does. She definitely puts in more hours than I do. Just throwing kudos in where it is deserved. My biggest contribution is that I cook all weekend... breakfasts/lunches/dinners. I love cooking actually (im good) but dont get to do it during the week. Im also grounds keeper, gardener and of course.. general handyman and attnder to the 'honeydew' list.

again - no sense arguing overly much unless the OP comes back. Laugh. I believe eveyone has made thei points here.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

C123 What I hear you saying is that you want to keep doing the same thing, except that you want it to actually work for a change. When you've tried that approach for a while (I did for 10 sexless years) and it continues to not work, maybe it's time to try a different approach. The different approach worked for me when the other did not. Ymmv. It's pretty disingenuous for men who have naturally normal drive wives to come on here lecturing sexless men to not pressure their wives because it works for them. When you've walked a few years in my shoes and then successfully turned it around then I'll take you seriously.


----------



## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

Workingonme - I hear you. I've never actually asked anyone on here for help with this problem because I know what I'm going to get and my situation is extremely unique for a number of reasons. However, I do enjoy reading the responses given to other men who have this problem whose situation is not as unique as mine and I'm more of the opinion that when the only thing missing from your marriage is quantity of sex, then I don't believe a complete 180 is the answer. I think that's just as likely to lead to more serious problems as it is to lead to any kind of solution.

Of course, you are living proof that it can work in the right situation and I'm glad for that.


----------



## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I'm simply stating the obvious. Being a SAHM isn't necessarily easy. But, it doesn't take 40 hours a week. If it does, you're doing it wrong. To suggest otherwise is, indeed, inane.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but it has nothing to do with the number of hours, it is the amount of energy, physical & emotional. I'm a guy and even I understand this. Most of us guys are no where near as emotionally invested in our work as a SAHM. Plus, it is a 24 hr a day, 7 days a week, weekends, holidays, vacations - we *never close* kind of job. And to suggest otherwise is a bit short-sighted.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

C123 said:


> A lot of you think it's ridiculous that one could honestly believe they have a great marriage that is only missing sex. The fact is, there are a lot of us out there who have really wonderful, emotionally satisfying partnerships with awesome women who just are not interested in sex as much as we'd like them to be.


It obviously depends on how important sex is to you. For many men, it's the primary reason we got married. If sex is 14th on your top 20 list of reasons you got married, then you may be only mildly dissatisfied in a sexless marriage. For some men, sex is 1-5 on that same list. Those men will be miserable in a sexless marriage.



C123 said:


> Your first response is "she's not attracted to you, man up, take something away from her." What is that advice based on? You don't know us. You don't know our spouses. You don't know the little intricacies that make our marriage what it is. We're on this board because it is frustrating when you don't get laid as much as you'd like and we need people to talk to about it and we'd like to find people in similar situations who can offer constructive advice.


What you fail to see is that many of us have been in that situation. I was. I wasn't in a sexless relationship, but I was in a marriage where sex had gone from 2-3 times a week in the beginning to twice a month. But I fixed it.

In my case, I went to a few marriage counseling sessions with my wife at the same time I found MMSL. And what came out of my counseling sessions was that she wasn't attracted to me. I was nerfing her attraction with my beta. I was the greatest dad around. I was mister reliable. I tried my best to take all demands off of her. We spent our free time doing couple activities. I politely asked for sex and always understood when she couldn't because she had to be at work in 14 hours. And she didn't find that sexy at all. Eventually, it led to a crisis.

So, I upped my alpha. I started taking care of myself. I stopped catering to her. I expected her to do some catering to me. I didn't ask for sex. I expected sex. I told her she would no longer wear flannel pajamas/chastity suits to bed. And she found that sexy. We've upped our frequency back close to that of our newlywed days. We're not setting any records, but we're both OK with it.



C123 said:


> Trenton and drerio offer good advice. That's the kind of stuff most of in this situation are looking for.


For a husband who is heavy on beta, adding more beta is usually not good advice. It's just recommending doing more of what isn't working.



C123 said:


> There's a time and place for the 180 and all of that stuff, but this is not it. Doing a 180 and changing behaviors and all of that in this situation could be a terrible decision.
> 
> I recognize we all won't agree here, but I'm with a anotherguy on this one.
> 
> Very respectfully, C123


MMSL, NMMNG, the 180, and the thermostat approach are somewhat similar approaches, but each different enough to warrant applying differently to different situations. But you are correct that none of them will work in every situation. And each of them carries some risk.

I simply think it's a risk worth taking. If your wife refuses to have sex with you, it's up to you if you want to risk losing her in order to get a sexual relationship back. It goes back to how important sex is to you.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Just to be clear, I didn't do a complete 180. I turned down the thermostat, stopped "some" of what I considered beta behaviors, increased "some" of what I thought of as alpha behaviors, and eventually had a few frank discussions about how much longer I was willing to stay married and sexless. We're still working on it. But the frequency issue is more than solved and sex is a real priority for us both now.


----------



## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

I keep saying this:

1) Make sure you're taking care of the sh*t she needs taken care of. Make sure you're not neglecting things that are important to her. That means she doesn't have to nag you to get things done. There's no financial issues. Etc. Just because every aspect of your marriage is perfect to YOU doesn't mean it is to her. LISTEN to what she says, complains about, and WATCH what she does.

2) Handle her sh*t. Read about "nice guy syndrome". If you're not doing it, start making decisions for your family. Don't be her doormat. Handle her bullsh*t without turning into a needy, whiny, passive-aggressive, moody sulker. Don't argue, defend your feelings, raise your voice or allow yourself to be baited. Don't tell her 100 times a day how wonderful she is when she's not taking care of your basic needs. In other words, be the leader in your family.

3) Here's the big one for you...Be able to give your affection freely without expecting something in return. That's needy, and your affection should be given because you love her, not because you're trying to buy or beg for hers. When you touch her and call her beautiful, she feels like you're begging for sex. Stop it until you can do wit without acting needy.

4) Once you're doing those things, tell her CLEARLY & SPECIFICALLY what your needs and expectations are, and that it is necessary for these to be fulfilled to have a happy marriage. But it needs to be clear that she has to decide NOW and then change her behavior NOW. Make it clear that these are not negotiable, and anything else is unacceptable. She can comply or not. If the answer is "not" then there is no possibility of a happy marriage and you have to move on.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I agree that it's silly. But you seem to object mightily when someone suggests that a man match his wife's level of effort in his marriage.


This, I think - is one place (of many) where you lose me. I simply dont buy this.

Lets say.. for arguments sake that 2 years ago my wife climbed up on the couch with a 5 gallon bucket of Ben and Jerries and a big fat spoon and sat there for the next couple of years. The house goes to he11, our sex life suffers mightily. She is 'tired'. Total Disaster.

Your solution, as I understand it, is to perhaps take away something she is enjoying as a 'consequence'. Illustrate how her lack of contribution justifies the punishment. You are hurting me - therefore I am going to hurt you. Further you are assuming my solution would be to clean up the house and buy her more ice cream, you know... since thats what she wants - thats the 'beta' way of the subservient male.

just wrong on so many levels.

I want to point out - now that I frame it this way... that by the time my wife has been on the couch, sexless for 2 years with her ice cream and both of our bad attitudes, it is far too late for easy solutions. The damage is done. The game players insist 'talking doesnt work', but I say they are doing it wrong - to parrot back the phrase.

sorry - I should stop filling this thread up with this. I'll wait for the OP to show up again. Frankly - this is probably just a moderator stiring the pot up.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I guess I don't understand this concept of *trying* to be an alpha male as if there is some generalized prescription for every situation. I am a willing partner with my wife of 18+ years. She respects me (shown through actions) and I love her dearly (also shown through actions). We both work our a$$es off to be both good parents and have enough time for each other. I like the concept "we" rather than what can "she" do for me. Simply my experience and my situation. I realize that as humans with a highly developed neo-cortex, my situation may not work for everyone else. I only offer a suggestion to the OP and if does not work then he has eliminated this as a factor. I take more methodical approaches. 


Now I need to get my "p*ssy" whipped a$$ ready so I can get my youngest to school on time and I can get to work to catch up on my work


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

drerio said:


> I guess I don't understand this concept of *trying* to be an alpha male as if there is some generalized prescription for every situation. I am a willing partner with my wife of 18+ years. She respects me (shown through actions) and I love her dearly (also shown through actions). We both work our a$$es off to be both good parents and have enough time for each other. I like the concept "we" rather than what can "she" do for me. Simply my experience and my situation. I realize that as humans with a highly developed neo-cortex, my situation may not work for everyone else. I only offer a suggestion to the OP and if does not work then he has eliminated this as a factor. I take more methodical approaches.
> 
> 
> Now I need to get my "p*ssy" whipped a$$ ready so I can get my youngest to school on time and I can get to work to catch up on my work


What you're doing is fine because your wife holds up her end on the marriage. If your wife ignored her end of the marriage for years while you kept up your end then you would have a much different perspective.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What you're doing is fine because your wife holds up her end on the marriage. If your wife ignored her end of the marriage for years while you kept up your end then you would have a much different perspective.


I definitely agree. We can disagree on methods of addressing it, but yep.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

rj700 said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but it has nothing to do with the number of hours, it is the amount of energy, physical & emotional. I'm a guy and even I understand this. Most of us guys are no where near as emotionally invested in our work as a SAHM. Plus, it is a 24 hr a day, 7 days a week, weekends, holidays, vacations - we *never close* kind of job. And to suggest otherwise is a bit short-sighted.


Whatever. I guess I'm just the most accomplished person in the world.

I can vacuum a room in about 10 minutes. And it doesn't exhaust me physically, emotionally, sexually, or spiritually. It's pretty easy stuff. If I spend 25 minutes a day vacuuming, every room in my entire house gets vacuumed once a week. Maybe everybody else in the world needs to spend an hour per room vacuuming. That would be much more tiring than my spending 10 minutes.

I can go to the grocery store in under two hours. I drive to the store and I spend some time pushing a buggy around. I'm not exhausted when I get home. Maybe everybody else needs to spend six hours or more doing that.

It's the same story for me with loading/unloading the dishwasher, throwing some clothes in the washing machine, throwing some cellophane wrapped chicken breasts in the slow cooker, etc. I can just get it done fairly quickly. I guess I'm just gifted. I don't feel like I'm moving especially fast. But maybe I am.

If I am gifted with housework, I come from a long line of gifted women. My grandmother had 9 children. And she didn't have a vacuum cleaner, running water, a dishwasher, an automatic washing machine, dryer, or microwave. She washed clothes in a an early model washing machine that she filled with well water (drawn in a bucket with a rope), followed by two tubs to rinse the clothes. She then hung them on a line to dry. She cooked dinner by slaughtering a chicken and making dumplings from scratch. Frankly, she would laugh her ass off at modern women and men who suggest that vacuuming two rooms, going to the grocery store, and cooking dinner is just impossible for one person to accomplish without a staff. :rofl:

I think the complaining about time is just that people fill their time. Just like people tend to spend all the money they have. Whether they make $30k/year, or $60k, or $90k. They just need a little more. People will fill their free time. The problem is people who have two hours a day of housework, and then do 9 hours of other stuff to tire themselves out. The solution to that problem is not to cut back on the housework.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What you're doing is fine because your wife holds up her end on the marriage. If your wife ignored her end of the marriage for years while you kept up your end then you would have a much different perspective.


I understand... so you would need to try something different. And, I would as I said, I would take a methodical approach.


----------



## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> ..I can vacuum a room in about 10 minutes.....


All that misses the point. Spectacularly.


----------



## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

PHTlump - you make a good point. If a man gets married just to have sex (or that's at the top of the list of reasons), then a marriage with low sex frequency is awful.

However, I, and the majority of guys I know did not get married for sex. In fact, I don't think I even considered it as a reason for getting married. I saw all sorts of other great reasons to spend my life with this person. Sure, sex is important and I freakin' love it, but if it's in my top 5, then it's there just barely. Sure, I could go for sex every single day and never get tired of it, but that's not why I'm married.

So...that said, I realize that the priority of sex in every mans life is different and that's why what works for some won't work for others. As long as we all recognize this, I think the conversation is a lot more productive.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> All that misses the point. Spectacularly.


I think you've missed the point. The OP's wife is a SAHM who claims she doesn't have time for sex. And some posters here are excusing that on the grounds that being a SAHM takes so much time and is so exhausting that it's reasonable for a SAHM to regularly reject her husband.

I disagree. The duties of a SAHM should take less than 40 hours a week. That is inarguable. I suppose that some posters could argue that 20 hours of SAHM work in a week is more tiring than 40 hours of office work, or whatever work the OP does. But I would disagree. And that seems to be playing right back into the argument that women are so incompetent that we shouldn't expect them to be able to vacuum a couple of rooms and drive to the grocery store in the same day. I'm not saying that every woman is capable of doing two tasks in a day. But I think the majority of women can accomplish two, or even three things in the course of a working day.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

People will make the time for the things they want to do. 

People make time for the things they don't want to do but have to do.

I am sure that the POTUS & FLOTUS even have sex.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> My wife works part time. She also shoulders the bulk of the heavy lifting on the domestic front. Getting the kids ready for school, making lunches, picking the place up, dealing with them after school, making dinner, helping with homework, doing laundry, baths, boo-boos, playing games with them, taking them places - soccer - swimming - gymnastics - piano - softball - basketball, playing referee with squabbles, supervising computer and TV.. getting ready for bed, doing their hair, reading with them....you know...parenting. I help with this too and 500 other things on thedomestic front. Yeah it eases a bit as they get older - but not much.
> 
> If you are 'only' spending 40 hours a week - then that, I say - is doing it wrong. Slacker.


I would say two things to this. First, much of that is not what I consider SAHM work. Helping with homework and bathing the kids, etc. can be shared tasks that both parents do with the kids. It's more in line with family activities than chores that a SAHM should be able to do by herself.

As for the other stuff, I'll simply say that anybody can make anything take an inordinate amount of time. If I spend two hours tying my shoes, that doesn't mean that tying my shoes is hard. It just means I'm doing it wrong. I certainly shouldn't use it as an excuse to hire a landscaper because I don't have time to tie my shoes and cut the grass in the same day.

But let's say that the OP's wife isn't doing anything wrong. Let's say that she spends less than two hours at the grocery store. Let's say that she can accomplish the essential SAHM chores (getting the kids off to school, cleaning up the house, keeping the groceries stocked, dinner, etc.) in 3 hours a day. That doesn't give her the green light to spend 9 hours a day running herself ragged on non-essential things.

If the OP's wife can't fit sex with her husband and volunteering with the PTA into her day, then she needs to give up the PTA. She doesn't need to hire somebody to do her laundry because the PTA is essential to her life. Several on this thread seem to get this basic tenet of marriage backward. They believe that driving your children to three sports a day should take precedence over keeping your house clean or emotionally connecting with your spouse. That's just nuts.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> This reminds me of a comedian I saw one time talking about how lazy he was. He had showered, dressed, and gone to the post office. He was capable of nothing else that day.
> 
> The OP's wife is a SAHM with children who are in school during the day. If she requires help keeping house, then she's either eating bon bons on the couch during the day, or she's spending her energies on outside activities that don't contribute to the family. If she is a competent woman, she should be able to keep the house clean and put dinner on the table without collapsing of exhaustion.


Ha! I remember that comedian. " my dad had two jobs and went to school at night. If I go to the bank and the cleaners in the same day, I have to have a nap.". 

Anyway, yeah, if the OP's wife had three kids under four years old then I could see not having the energy for sex. But three school-aged children? And she doesn't have a job? No.

She doesn't like sex, can't be bothered, and/or isn't attracted to her husband. No other explanation, excepting medical reasons. The reasons for those reasons is where it gets complicated.

Sorry OP. if I were you I'd take the advice of posters who have been in similar situations and turned things around. And from a personal point of view, I think turning down the thermostat, doing a 180-lite, or whatever, after communicating to your wife that you won't accept a sexless marriage, so she needs to work out what needs to happen for her to bring it back is the way to go.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Back to advising the OP:

You have to go through a process that takes time.
You have to teach her about marriage. 

Your marriage is not oriented in a way that it's about a husband and wife interacting, but it's more about each of you getting indpendent fulfillment.

Your wife needs to learn that sex is important to you at an emotional level, she needs to hear from you that you believe marriages are sexual relatoinships, she needs to learn to prioritize the needs of her husband.

And you have to do the same types of things with her emotional needs. In fact the way she learns everything she needs to learn is by seeing and feeling what it's like when you do it. The question is what is her emotional need.. It's not sex, it is something else what is it?


----------

