# The " LOLITA " urge....



## Caribbean Man

The idea for this thread came to me from a similar discussion on another thread in the Men's section , ie:
" _Man's innate desire for youthful woman?_"
Also , about one year ago there was another thread I participated in which disturbed me a lot , where a wife , complained about here middle aged husband keeping a diary mentioning in detail all his * thoughts* on a young 14 or 15 yr old neighbour.
Here's a link to that thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...113-has-my-husband-got-thing-about-teens.html

Well ,I've been following this NBC Dateline series over the past two years and something about the stories also puzzle me deeply.
Here's a recent, 2013 episode:

Dateline: To Catch a Predator #6 Fortson, Georgia. (Episode 1 of 2) Full Version.

Basically , it's an investigative report on an ongoing undercover sting operation at various locales across the USA , in conjunction with an online watchdog group called 
"_ Perverted Justice._ " This group is dedicated to stopping internet sex predators, or men trying to meet, chat and have sex with underaged girls / boys and bringing them to justice.

Whilst parts of the video are amusing, underneath I find it deeply troubling that men from all walks of life , Doctors, Federal Agents, Teachers , Businessmen, Pastors, Rabbis , Holy Men, could find the idea of having sex with a 13 or 14 year old girl / boy exciting enough to risk loosing their jobs, family, marriages, social standing in their respective communities and freedom over.

So I find myself asking, what really motivate a man who might not even have a criminal record , who has a good wife and family , with even young adolescent daughters ,to drive hundreds of miles in the snow, rain or storm to commit an act which he KNOWS IS ILLEGAL , and runs a high risk of getting caught?

What could they be possibly thinking?
I've heard all different types of explanations , but absolutely none of them sits well with me.
My thoughts, amongst many others on this issue comes down to this. No man would like the idea of another grown man seeking to have sex with his 13 or 14 yr old child, son or daughter, or looking at them in any perverted ways, so why do it to someone else's kiddo?

"_ Do unto others as you would have them do unto you._."

What do you think?


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## FormerSelf

Who knows what sends people down that path. My wife, when she was in her social work program in college, opted to intern with an agency that dealt with sex offenders. It concerned me that she would be doing group therapy sessions with them...all of the images in my mind of what these sort of men (and an occassional woman) looked and acted like...perversely leering at her. Of course, i communicated such concerns to my wife, who said, "Trust me, these guys have NO interest in me whatsoever." And it's true, whatever triggered these guys' brains to get stuck on the age group of their fantasy...they got stuck. And in these therapy sessions...the point of them was to build enough rapport with them so they could be open enough to share where they were in the cycle of acting out. Because for the most part, it is not a matter of "if" they will reoffend...it is a matter of "when." Some will have the typical appearance of what you expect...scuzzy appearance, but others are professional men. You just never are going to know. Anyway, after doing that stint of internship, my wife never looked at society the same again. 
My theory is that once someone goes down that road, it is an all-consuming thought. Basically, it is a hard-wired sex addiction, which many that have it, say how sex, the thought of it, the fantasy of it, the planning of it, the grooming you intended target...it is part of their life. And I am just plainly talking about your average sex addict. Pedos, out of control to their sex addiction to minors, contain that same drive as other addicts...the build-up, the planning, the escalating well-planned out execution of encountering the target...then the crash, the self-hatred, the brief get-on-your-knees period that "I will never do this again!"...then the eventual build-up again. Of course, the internet has made it worse...as they all now get to form together and share notes on how to get away with it.


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## ASummersDay

This is a controversial topic, to say the least. I've met men whose philosophy is, "If there's grass on the field, play ball!" I'm sure there are women who feel the same. Personally I don't agree with that philosophy. I think as adults we have a responsibility to protect children from harm, not use them for personal gratification. Psychologically, legally, and developmentally a 13-14 year old is still a child. They are not adults, and from a developmental standpoint, lack several of the cognitive capabilities that adults have - particularly in the executive system of the brain regarding reasoning and long-term decision making. So in my view, an adult that has those capabilities knows that what they are doing has the potential to cause a lot of harm to many people (including themselves) and should be mature enough to make the decision that is least likely to harm the child (in this case, to NOT pursue sexual contact with a minor).

In my mind, this issue gets more complicated when you are dealing with two teenagers, for example a 17 year old and 14 year old. But I think the scenarios you described are 100% wrong. There is no justification for it.


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## ASummersDay

I don't work directly with sex offenders (who have not all committed crimes against children, I should point out) but I have several associates who do and have had to attend several trainings. Current knowledge in the field does align with what FormerSelf posted. Offender groups focus on creating a climate of safety so that the offender(s) will feel comfortable honestly expressing their desires and creating a plan to avoid acting on them. 

Research on the development of normal human sexuality - attraction to other sexually mature adults - shows that it is actually very complex. It isn't entirely biological and it isn't entirely cultural. My understanding as far as otherwise "normal" adults that are attracted to children is that something goes horribly wrong during the development of their sexual attraction, possibly extreme trauma or a combination of trauma and genetic predisposition. But as I said, there is simply no justification for pursuing a child sexually. Even an adult who feels attraction for minors has the capacity to understand that it is wrong to have sex with them. I don't have any empathy for anyone who would make that choice.

ETA: I feel that young teenagers who have been through puberty are still children in all respects except perhaps physically, by the most technical definitions. In my mind, they are still children, and any adult who pursues them sexually is wrong to do so.


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## Caribbean Man

ASummersDay said:


> This is a controversial topic, to say the least. I've met men whose philosophy is, "If there's grass on the field, play ball!" I'm sure there are women who feel the same. Personally I don't agree with that philosophy. I think as adults we have a responsibility to protect children from harm, not use them for personal gratification. Psychologically, legally, and developmentally a 13-14 year old is still a child. They are not adults, and from a developmental standpoint, lack several of the cognitive capabilities that adults have - particularly in the executive system of the brain regarding reasoning and long-term decision making. So in my view, an adult that has those capabilities knows that what they are doing has the potential to cause a lot of harm to many people (including themselves) and should be mature enough to make the decision that is least likely to harm the child (in this case, to NOT pursue sexual contact with a minor).
> 
> In my mind, this issue gets more complicated when you are dealing with two teenagers, for example a 17 year old and 14 year old. But I think the scenarios you described are 100% wrong. There is no justification for it.


Well indeed, it is a controversial issue , and quite a lot of men I've heard IRL say that if the girl / says yes, then they will have sex with her.
I agree that kids around that age are not fully aware of consequences of actions ,and cannot realistically be , because they haven't really experienced life as yet. Hence having sex or any type of intimate relationship with an adult three or four times their age is just robbing them of their childhood. I think it can be comparable to child labour / slavery. 

However if two kids are involved sexually , although is is risky, and the consequences there , I don't think that a predator / victim situation exist, because both are along the same level of development.


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## Caribbean Man

FormerSelf said:


> *My theory is that once someone goes down that road, it is an all-consuming thought. Basically, it is a hard-wired sex addiction, which many that have it, say how sex, the thought of it, the fantasy of it, the planning of it, the grooming you intended target...it is part of their life.*
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, the internet has made it worse...as they all now get to form together and share notes on how to get away with it.


Interestingly, almost every man in the vid , when they realized that they were caught in a sting , swore it was the first time they had ever done something like that,  and that they didn't know " _what got into my mind_."
My mind tells me that they were lying.

The average time lapse between meeting the target " kid" online to meeting up at a place for sex with that 13 yr old was just a couple of days, about 1 week max.

I think these men were either always harbouring those thoughts or worse, accustomed having inappropriate relations with underaged kids.

The fact that so many men were caught in the exact , same trap speaks volumes of how much of this types of activity goes on undetected.


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## norajane

I think the age of consent in some countries actually is 14, so not all cultures see this the same way. What is a crime in the US, would not be elsewhere. 

There must be something about the "unspoiled" and "innocent" and "virginal" thing that is attractive to some about young teens. That must be why there is lots of "barely legal" porn out there.

Also, for as many women have "daddy" issues, just as many men have "princess" syndrome, which is why you see 18 year olds marrying 40 year olds. 

So, I'm not convinced something went horribly wrong during their development. I see it as more they got stuck in a certain place during development and never matured beyond it.


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## ASummersDay

norajane said:


> I think the age of consent in some countries actually is 14, so not all cultures see this the same way. What is a crime in the US, would not be elsewhere.
> 
> There must be something about the "unspoiled" and "innocent" and "virginal" thing that is attractive to some about young teens. That must be why there is lots of "barely legal" porn out there.
> 
> Also, for as many women have "daddy" issues, just as many men have "princess" syndrome, which is why you see 18 year olds marrying 40 year olds.
> 
> So, I'm not convinced something went horribly wrong during their development. I see it as more they got stuck in a certain place during development and never matured beyond it.


I was referencing people who are attracted to pre-pubescent children when I said something had gone horribly wrong. I added the portion at the bottom to clarify that I also believe it is wrong for an adult to sexually pursue a post-pubescent child, which is a far more nuanced issue. 

While I think it is very valuable to point out how cultural norms vary, the fact that other cultures have named the age of consent as 14 does not change my views at all on this topic. There are many practices in other cultures that I disagree with, such as honor killings and female genital mutilation. This is one of those issues where I, personally, don't see much of a grey area. There will always be contradicting viewpoints, but I will never agree that a 14 year old is ready for the responsibility of parenthood (a possible consequence of sex).


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## Caribbean Man

Also I think that it has been scientifically proven that young girls at that age of 08 - 14 having sew with much bigger men are more likely to suffer from cervical cancers and STI's , because her reproductive system aren't fully developed.

It should also be noted that some of the cultures that allow sex with adolescent girls via arranged marriages have higher infant mortality rates,and lower life expectancy for women .


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## TiggyBlue

ASummersDay said:


> I was referencing people who are attracted to pre-pubescent children when I said something had gone horribly wrong. I added the portion at the bottom to clarify that I also believe it is wrong for an adult to sexually pursue a post-pubescent child, which is a far more nuanced issue.
> 
> While I think it is very valuable to point out how cultural norms vary, the fact that other cultures have named the age of consent as 14 does not change my views at all on this topic. There are many practices in other cultures that I disagree with, such as honor killings and female genital mutilation. This is one of those issues where I, personally, don't see much of a grey area. There will always be contradicting viewpoints, *but I will never agree that a 14 year old is ready for the responsibility of parenthood (a possible consequence of sex*).


:iagree:
A 14 year old going through pregnancy can cause massive problems, the body isn't fully formed or prepared for child birth.


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## norajane

I'm not _defending _the urge. I just think it's more common than people want to admit.


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## Caribbean Man

norajane said:


> I'm not _defending _the urge. I just think it's more common than people want to admit.


Understood.

But what I'm trying to figure is if the " urge" i normal?
And shouldn't it be curbed / dealt with in the same way we deal with the urge to want material things that other people have , but we don't?


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## ASummersDay

Sorry, norajane. I misinterpreted your post. I did think you were defending it, but I see now that you were not. And I don't disagree that many men are attracted to teenage girls, nor do I see that as abnormal, per se (although the ethics of having sex with a girl that young is still debatable, imo). I wasn't really thinking about older teens when I responded. I was specifically thinking of pre-pubescent or very young post-pubescent children going up to around 14.


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## Caribbean Man

I am inclined to think that sexual attraction to teenage girls or boys is morally wrong.


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## Openminded

norajane said:


> I'm not _defending _the urge. I just think it's more common than people want to admit.


I think it's very common. For endless thousands of years girls were routinely married at the onset of puberty or even before puberty. They were property. Nothing more. And some cultures continue that. It's the view of females as disposable.


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## Phenix70

FormerSelf said:


> Who knows what sends people down that path. My wife, when she was in her social work program in college, opted to intern with an agency that dealt with sex offenders. It concerned me that she would be doing group therapy sessions with them...all of the images in my mind of what these sort of men (and an occassional woman) looked and acted like...perversely leering at her. Of course, i communicated such concerns to my wife, who said, "Trust me, these guys have NO interest in me whatsoever." And it's true, whatever triggered these guys' brains to get stuck on the age group of their fantasy...they got stuck. And in these therapy sessions...the point of them was to build enough rapport with them so they could be open enough to share where they were in the cycle of acting out. Because for the most part, it is not a matter of "if" they will reoffend...it is a matter of "when." Some will have the typical appearance of what you expect...scuzzy appearance, but others are professional men. You just never are going to know. Anyway, after doing that stint of internship, my wife never looked at society the same again.
> My theory is that once someone goes down that road, it is an all-consuming thought. Basically, it is a hard-wired sex addiction, which many that have it, say how sex, the thought of it, the fantasy of it, the planning of it, the grooming you intended target...it is part of their life. And I am just plainly talking about your average sex addict. Pedos, out of control to their sex addiction to minors, contain that same drive as other addicts...the build-up, the planning, the escalating well-planned out execution of encountering the target...then the crash, the self-hatred, the brief get-on-your-knees period that "I will never do this again!"...then the eventual build-up again. Of course, the internet has made it worse...as they all now get to form together and share notes on how to get away with it.





ASummersDay said:


> I don't work directly with sex offenders (who have not all committed crimes against children, I should point out) but I have several associates who do and have had to attend several trainings. Current knowledge in the field does align with what FormerSelf posted. Offender groups focus on creating a climate of safety so that the offender(s) will feel comfortable honestly expressing their desires and creating a plan to avoid acting on them.
> 
> Research on the development of normal human sexuality - attraction to other sexually mature adults - shows that it is actually very complex. It isn't entirely biological and it isn't entirely cultural. My understanding as far as otherwise "normal" adults that are attracted to children is that something goes horribly wrong during the development of their sexual attraction, possibly extreme trauma or a combination of trauma and genetic predisposition. But as I said, there is simply no justification for pursuing a child sexually. Even an adult who feels attraction for minors has the capacity to understand that it is wrong to have sex with them. I don't have any empathy for anyone who would make that choice.
> 
> ETA: I feel that young teenagers who have been through puberty are still children in all respects except perhaps physically, by the most technical definitions. In my mind, they are still children, and any adult who pursues them sexually is wrong to do so.



Great posts worthy of being reposted.
The majority of these predators know exactly what they're doing.
This isn't simply a case of someone falling for someone younger then themselves, this is the systematic exploitation of children, often at the hands of those they trust.
There was recently a world wide sex ring broken up that included doctors, nurses, teachers, clergy & police officers.
Thankfully 386 children were rescued. 
Police: Sex abuse arrests in Canada began with probe of company - CNN.com


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## norajane

Caribbean Man said:


> Understood.
> 
> But what I'm trying to figure is if the " urge" id normal?


When most people died at 35 or 40 and got married at 14, it sure was normal. 

In today's world, Islam still thinks that's a-ok and preferred, the earlier the better to prevent them from masturbating, having sex outside marriage, and homosexuality rolleyes. 

Brazil doesn't seem to have pedo laws at all and is perfectly fine with child prostitution.

Then there are the Asian countries with their young teen prostitutes. 

And, as I mentioned, there's a whole genre of porn that features 18 year olds who look like they're 14.

I don't know that it's an abnormal urge, and abnormal seems to be defined differently depending on where you are.


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## ASummersDay

Caribbean Man said:


> Understood.
> 
> But what I'm trying to figure is if the " urge" i normal?
> And shouldn't it be curbed / dealt with in the same way we deal with the urge to want material things that other people have , but we don't?


Well, I guess that would change my response slightly. I think that it is normal for a man, regardless of his age, to have some kind of basic physical attraction to a teenage girl who has gone through puberty. When I say normal, I mean it in the scientific/mathematical sense, on the bell curve with no moral judgments attached. But there are limits to that, I don't necessarily think it applies to 13-14 year olds. I would say that is a bit out of the norm, in the mathematical sense.

As far as the ethics of it, my position is still the same.


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## soccermom2three

> While I think it is very valuable to point out how cultural norms vary, the fact that other cultures have named the age of consent as 14 does not change my views at all on this topic. There are many practices in other cultures that I disagree with, such as honor killings and female genital mutilation. This is one of those issues where I, personally, don't see much of a grey area. There will always be contradicting viewpoints, but I will never agree that a 14 year old is ready for the responsibility of parenthood (a possible consequence of sex).


I agree. Also, add in the fact that researchers are finding the teen brain is still developing and is not fully mature until close to the age of 25.

Inside The Teenage Brain | FRONTLINE | PBS


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## norajane

Caribbean Man said:


> Understood.
> 
> But what I'm trying to figure is if the " urge" i normal?
> And shouldn't it be curbed / dealt with in the same way we deal with the urge to want material things that other people have , but we don't?


I didn't see the second part of your statement...for the record, I absolutely think we should be trying to control it, which is why our societies have laws against it. 

We know a lot more about the development of brains than we used to, and I do not see 14 year olds as anything but children who have a lot more life to live before they are capable of understanding the implications of sex. All the hormones in our food are (likely) contributing to earlier and earlier puberty and menses in children, so just because the body might be physically capable of sex or is starting to look more mature doesn't mean the mind is anything remotely approaching mature.

I also fully loathe the idea that old men marry young teens as part of their religion. It's abusive, oppressive, and antithetical to the welfare of girls/women.


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## ASummersDay

Caribbean Man said:


> I am inclined to think that sexual attraction to teenage girls or boys is morally wrong.


Do you think the sexual attraction is morally wrong, the acting on that attraction, or both?


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## Caribbean Man

ASummersDay said:


> Do you think the sexual attraction is morally wrong, the acting on that attraction, or both?


People are not born with a moral compass, society and adults instill moral values into kids and they pass it on to their kids when they get older and so forth.
Hence we have social constructs.

Now sexual attraction is a very broad nebulous term with many different variables. I'm not so sure all sexual attraction is " natural" and cannot be controlled pre se.

So I'm inclined to think both the attraction and acting on that attraction is morally wrong.
For example;
Is it normal for a teenage boy to be sexually attracted to his mother?
Is it normal for a father to be sexually attracted to his 13 year old daughter?


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## Caribbean Man

I would like to suggest that everyone have a look at the vid.
Although it's a long vid, you can have a look at just the first 10 minutes and you will completely get the gist of it.

I based my thoughts on the fact that some of these men have young daughters the exact , same age as their
" victims."

Also , what was interesting to note , was that at no time during the online chats, or phone conversations were these men actually speaking to a 13 or 14 yr old, they were chatting with and speaking to adult " decoys" who were _acting_ like kids. The decoys were repeating the exact, same script with every single man, and everytime , the men got caught.
Apparently , the decoys from the group " perverted justice" were trained by psychologist to act a certain way, and use certain words to catch the predators.
That's why I'm wondering if the men's so called
" sexual attraction " might be a pathological disorder.
I'm just guessing here.
Apparently the men were attracted to _the idea _of sex with an under aged teen, especially a virgin, male or female.
The pics they were shown online were just facial pics with innocent expressions.


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## RClawson

It is interesting CB. When I look at a 13-15 yo girl my instinct is to protect them from everything (I think being a father of 2 girls will do that). I cannot say I have not had my head swivel at a striking 16+ yo. At the same time all I have to do is think of her opening her mouth and uttering a sentence and reality sets in immediately. No second look here.


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## LongWalk

Sexual attraction is complex. In my 50s now I find my eye caught much more by womanly bodies rather than slim girl look. I did not choose this: the change simply occurred. Biological?

Girls who are into puberty are sexual beings and they are beautiful. The human body in all it's shaped and forms has the power to fascinate. 

I just visited a friend whose liver is failing. When took a cup of tea in the dining room there was an old man whose jaundice horrified me. It was painful for me look at him. Without a transplant he will soon die. My friend, too.

Thankfully, their bodies are covered. It would be unbearable to gaze upon this last step of our mortality.

"Are there any cute nurses?" I asked my friend. 

"One," he replied, adding that he could not concentrate on her much. 

Emotional affairs? 

When my friend had his second transplant one assistant nurse bonded with him and motivated him to live. She was more important than his wife. His wife does not, I think, have the energy to save him. 

She has lived with his hepatitis for over three decades and two transplants, the second from their adult son.

Sometimes life is complex.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## soccermom2three

I'll never forget when I was out with my daughter at the mall. She had just turned 14 but was still in middle school and looked and dressed that way. A man around my age did a double take at her and stared. Then he looked at me looking at him checking out my daughter. His face turned bright red. I was totally creeped out.


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## loopy lu

As a 13 and 14 year old girl I was approached by men of all ages, and I thought it was creepy. 

What really sits unpleasantly is the power imbalance which exists in these potential relationships. Its why there are laws and policies for people in positions of power. It is not an equal relationship where each person has equal power.

When a anyone is being exploited it is reprehensible. To exploit a child for sexual means is the worst kind of revolting.


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## FormerSelf

soccermom2three said:


> I'll never forget when I was out with my daughter at the mall. She had just turned 14 but was still in middle school and looked and dressed that way. A man around my age did a double take at her and stared. Then he looked at me looking at him checking out my daughter. His face turned bright red. I was totally creeped out.


Ugh...and this is why the internet in this respect is ruining our society...'cos lots of guys are triggering 24/7 on their underage porn...triggering constantly with the fantasy in their heads...and don't even have the wherewithall to control their urges in public.


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## soccermom2three

loopy lu said:


> As a 13 and 14 year old girl I was approached by men of all ages, and I thought it was creepy.
> 
> What really sits unpleasantly is the power imbalance which exists in these potential relationships. Its why there are laws and policies for people in positions of power. It is not an equal relationship where each person has equal power.
> 
> When a anyone is being exploited it is reprehensible. To exploit a child for sexual means is the worst kind of revolting.


I was never approached but I remember being leered at. There was a friend of my Dad's that creeped me out because of the way he looked at me. It's hard to describe the look but I knew it was wrong because my Dad's other friends didn't look at me that way. 

I also agree about the power imbalance. On this thread I'm sure someone will post, "Well, girls married that young way back when, blah, blah." Did these girls really have choice? They were thought of as property or another mouth to feed so they were married off.


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## norajane

What do Shirley Temple, Annette Funicello, Elizabeth Taylor, the Olsen twins, and Emma Watson have in common...they were all teens with countdown clocks. 

Yep, grown men counting down the _years_, months, and days until they would turn 18 and no longer be jailbait. Which means they'd been eying them for years.

Celebrity 18th birthday countdowns have long been the rage - seattlepi.com

Oh, and who could forget Britney Spears (another Mickey Mouse Club child) iconic debut video? Her "Baby One More Time" video with the Catholic School Girl uniform, skirt shortened, with an unbuttoned blouse knotted at her waist, and the pigtail braids? It wasn't only teen boys who liked the video. She was on the cover of Rolling Stone a month later dressed in satin underwear lying on a rumpled satin sheet. She was 16. 

That there even is a Catholic Schoool Girl fantasy trope in itself is more than a sign that large numbers of adult men lust after Lolitas. It's not just teenaged boys who have that fantasy.


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## waiwera

Without wanting to add the issue of porn in general to this discussion I find the amount of 'underage' porn on the net disturbing.

I know intellectually that (hopefully) these girls are actually of age but look younger and are dressed/made up to look very very young... as in preteen young.

Surely this type of porn is encouraging men to be aroused by little children... normalising it. 

What happens when a highly sexed emotionally immature male jerks off to this kind of porn regularly.... is he not desensitised to it? 
After a while the idea isn't so shocking after all... the 'lolitas' even seem to be enjoying it and are clearly consenting????????
Is it then not a smallish step to looking for the real thing.

I'm not anti porn in general... I am anti SOME kinds of porn though.
This genre is one I deplore....


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## Phenix70

Caribbean Man said:


> I would like to suggest that everyone have a look at the vid.
> Although it's a long vid, you can have a look at just the first 10 minutes and you will completely get the gist of it.
> 
> I based my thoughts on the fact that some of these men have young daughters the exact , same age as their
> " victims."
> 
> Also , what was interesting to note , was that at no time during the online chats, or phone conversations were these men actually speaking to a 13 or 14 yr old, they were chatting with and speaking to adult " decoys" who were _acting_ like kids. The decoys were repeating the exact, same script with every single man, and everytime , the men got caught.
> Apparently , the decoys from the group " perverted justice" were trained by psychologist to act a certain way, and use certain words to catch the predators.
> That's why I'm wondering if the men's so called
> " sexual attraction " might be a pathological disorder.
> I'm just guessing here.
> Apparently the men were attracted to _the idea _of sex with an under aged teen, especially a virgin, male or female.
> The pics they were shown online were just facial pics with innocent expressions.


"To Catch a Predator" was on TV here 2004-2007, it was cancelled after the suicide of one of the predators, Louis Conradt, a Texas district attorney engaged in sexually explicit online chats and telephone conversations with a decoy pretending to be a 13-year-old boy.
Though he never made an attempt to meet the boy, in TX, a person can be charged with crimes if they participate in sexually explicit convos/texts/chats with children, or people they assume to be children.
When SWAT was attempting to serve the warrant, Conradt killed himself, while Dateline camera crews where on the scene. 

Many of the predators would bring alcohol, drugs, condoms, sexual aids & clothing to meet their victims. 
I'll never forget this one guy who lost his sh*t after Chris Hansen confronted him because he already knew who Chris Hansen was because he had seen the show before.


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## Caribbean Man

Phenix70 said:


> I'll never forget this one guy who lost his sh*t after Chris Hansen confronted him because he already knew who Chris Hansen was because he had seen the show before.


In the vid I linked, there was the young guy who tried
" explaining " to Chris Hansen after he was caught , that in his view, sex with an underaged virgin irl was the purest sex there was..

Then it hit me, _" Huston, we have a problem."_

That was the same rationale HIV infected men in South Africa , Nigeria and a few other countries on the African continent used when they were having sex with pubescent , underaged girls. 
They thought that sex with these girls would " cure " them of HIV.
That misguided " cultural concept" contributed significantly to the HIV / AIDS pandemic in Africa that almost wiped out an entire generation ,during the 90's.

My thoughts are that any society which " canibalize " <---[ a word I made up ] it's young in this manner is jeopardizing it's future. There's a socioeconomic price to pay. We must connect the dots.

Sadly, this practise of sex with 13 & 14 yr olds is not only prevalent in the USA, but also in Latin America, the Caribbean, and a few other countries in the developed world.

I'm wondering with the advent of digital cameras, the internet , social media and smartphones , maybe we are nearing the
" critical mass."


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## Caribbean Man

waiwera said:


> Without wanting to add the issue of porn in general to this discussion I find the amount of 'underage' porn on the net disturbing.
> 
> I know intellectually that (hopefully) these girls are actually of age but look younger and are dressed/made up to look very very young... as in preteen young.
> 
> Surely this type of porn is encouraging men to be aroused by little children... normalising it.
> 
> What happens when a highly sexed emotionally immature male jerks off to this kind of porn regularly.... is he not desensitised to it?
> After a while the idea isn't so shocking after all... the 'lolitas' even seem to be enjoying it and are clearly consenting????????
> Is it then not a smallish step to looking for the real thing.
> 
> I'm not anti porn in general... I am anti SOME kinds of porn though.
> This genre is one I deplore....


:iagree:

And it seems that this genre of porn is about the most subscribed.
Given that most porn is geared for the male consumers of the market , it's not that hard to make an educated guess.
Life reflects art and art reflects life.


----------



## Caribbean Man

RClawson said:


> It is interesting CB. When I look at a 13-15 yo girl my instinct is to protect them from everything (I think being a father of 2 girls will do that).


:iagree:

And that's where my thought are at.
I think most men would have that protective instinct for any kid, doesn't matter if it's their own.

So why is it this behaviour seem to have become acceptable amongst some males?
It's almost like the " speak easy " of the prohibition era.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

norajane said:


> I think the age of consent in some countries actually is 14, so not all cultures see this the same way. What is a crime in the US, would not be elsewhere.


It's 13 in Spain. :/

In the US it's only 16 for the most part too.


----------



## waiwera

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And it seems that this genre of porn is about the most subscribed.
> Given that most porn is geared for the male consumers of the market , it's not that hard to make an educated guess.
> *Life reflects art and art reflects life*.


Yes it does to an extent... but does it not come with the bias of the 'artist'?

It's doesn't really reflect my life or yours by the sounds of it.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And that's where my thought are at.
> I think most men would have that protective instinct for any kid, doesn't matter if it's their own.
> 
> So why is it this behaviour seem to have become acceptable amongst some males?
> It's almost like the " speak easy " of the prohibition era.


I don't know anyone who accepts this kind of behavior. You should report any child pornography you encounter to the police in your country. Men who want to have sex with children are sick in my opinion. They are basically the same as rapists with their twisted minds.


----------



## Openminded

norajane said:


> What do Shirley Temple, Annette Funicello, Elizabeth Taylor, the Olsen twins, and Emma Watson have in common...they were all teens with countdown clocks.
> 
> Yep, grown men counting down the _years_, months, and days until they would turn 18 and no longer be jailbait. Which means they'd been eying them for years.
> 
> Celebrity 18th birthday countdowns have long been the rage - seattlepi.com
> 
> Oh, and who could forget Britney Spears (another Mickey Mouse Club child) iconic debut video? Her "Baby One More Time" video with the Catholic School Girl uniform, skirt shortened, with an unbuttoned blouse knotted at her waist, and the pigtail braids? It wasn't only teen boys who liked the video. She was on the cover of Rolling Stone a month later dressed in satin underwear lying on a rumpled satin sheet. She was 16.
> 
> That there even is a Catholic Schoool Girl fantasy trope in itself is more than a sign that large numbers of adult men lust after Lolitas. It's not just teenaged boys who have that fantasy.


The Catholic school uniform is a favorite male fantasy. My granddaughter went to a Catholic school and when I took her somewhere after school, as a young teenager, she received a lot of male looks while in her uniform. And not just from fellow teenagers.


----------



## aeasty

I' not defending it but I think a lot of it has to do with "the Glory days" they remember back to the days when they were single and had girls throwing themselves at them and they weren't over weight and angry at them, not to mention they were far easier to manipulate. So I think it has a lot to do with older people reminiscing back to there glory days so to speak.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I agree with aeasty...I went to HS in a small, hick town. The guys who grew up in that town and never moved away tended to stay stuck at a high school mentality level.

One guy I knew in HS, when we were both in our 40's...was telling me he saw and hung out with this girl we both knew in HS and her now teen aged daughters. This girl had been a real beauty back in the day, and I said to him something like "I bet she still looks great, doesn't she?"

He answered "Not compared to her 14 and 15 year old daughters who were running around!"

(groan)

I haven't spoken to him since. I just thought it was so creepy. I mean, yes of course the young teen girls are beautiful...but I mean, really? Can you not just view them as "off limits" and not be a perv?

But this guy...as I said, his maturity is stunted. He operates on basically the same principals and with the same motions as he did in HS. He can't really see the value in a woman older than high school age. Like aeasty said, women his own age can't be manipulated and won't treat you as if a ride in your car is some special treat.

I understand the guy is stunted maturity-wise, but I still wrote him off. I just can't be civil to anyone who is creepy like that.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Openminded said:


> The Catholic school uniform is a favorite male fantasy. My granddaughter went to a Catholic school and when I took her somewhere after school, as a young teenager, she received a lot of male looks while in her uniform. And not just from fellow teenagers.


This is ironic considering all the scandals around the Catholic church lately... Maybe there is a reason/motive the female uniform is a skimpy one.


----------



## always_alone

waiwera said:


> Without wanting to add the issue of porn in general to this discussion I find the amount of 'underage' porn on the net disturbing.


It's not just porn. It's all over mass media. Many models are very young teens made up and dressed up to look much older. There are so many varieties of beauty pageants, etc, that encourage very young girls, even prepubescent ones, to dress sexily and act coy. Sexualization of young women is everywhere. Youth is a societal fetish.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

If I think of the girls I went to High School I see them as they were 30 years ago when they were 16, 17 and 18. I haven`t seen any of them since 1973. It only makes sense I remember them as `almost women`. Sadly my High School years would hardly be considered GLORY DAYS.
Just a thought, Brain Science tells us that there are real structural differences between men and women. Then it was found that Homosexuality is largely genetic. How would we respond to finding that Pedophilia is also genetic and that they cannot help themselves


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Like aeasty said, women his own age can't be manipulated and won't treat you as if a ride in your car is some special treat.



A lot of guys are specifically looking for characteristics that usually come with youth: virginal, pure, naive, admiring, easily impressed, easy to manipulate and so on. 

18-20 is often held out to be the pinnacle of womanhood, and so a 15-year old would be just 3 years shy of this.

I guess I'm just wondering if a good chunk of the world is stuck in a high school mentality.


----------



## coffee4me

I was curious as to whether males can sometimes sense that something is off in another male. Perhaps sometimes better than a female. 

As females we pick up on the creepy guys with overt staring. It's particularly infuriating now when I catch men staring at my 12 year old daughter this way. She looks older, she cannot help that, 

My son has on 3 occasions told me that a boy or man "cannot be trusted" around my daughter. The first time he was only 8 and she 5. He made her leave a neighbors yard with him when he came home to use the restroom. She was complaining and I asked why she couldn't stay out with the other kids and he said that a certain boy out there 'could not be trusted'. I later asked if there was any reason in particular he had this feeling about this boy. Had he done or said something. He said 'No, he's never said anything bad- I just don't trust him around my sister'. 

He has on two other occasions over the years told me this feeling of unease with a male around his sister. I've always taken his feeling seriously and never left her alone with the person.


----------



## Caribbean Man

coffee4me said:


> I was curious as to whether males can sometimes sense that something is off in another male. Perhaps sometimes better than a female.
> 
> As females we pick up on the creepy guys with overt staring. It's particularly infuriating now when I catch men staring at my 12 year old daughter this way. She looks older, she cannot help that,
> 
> My son has on 3 occasions told me that a boy or man "cannot be trusted" around my daughter. The first time he was only 8 and she 5. He made her leave a neighbors yard with him when he came home to use the restroom. She was complaining and I asked why she couldn't stay out with the other kids and he said that a certain boy out there 'could not be trusted'. I later asked if there was any reason in particular he had this feeling about this boy. Had he done or said something. He said 'No, he's never said anything bad- I just don't trust him around my sister'.
> 
> He has on two other occasions over the years told me this feeling of unease with a male around his sister. I've always taken his feeling seriously and never left her alone with the person.


Thanks for posting this, I kinda jolted my memory.
When I was a kid, I had my younger sister and brother, both twins under my care. We all played together with others in our neighbourhood especially during the summertime. And yes, there were guys I never wanted around my sister , there was just something too creepy about them.

Maybe this type of behaviour is really nothing new?
Or maybe because we are now in the virtual age, it has become more prevalent since online , people are basically anonymous.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I don't want us to confuse normal male sexual attraction to the female gender with this under age predator behaviour.

I agree that on a visceral level,sexual attraction is quite normal in all of us both male and female.

I think there's a huge difference between lusting after a woman's body and lusting after a kid's innocence , real or perceived.

I also know that in all of us , there is something I often refer to as a " kill switch " , something which can turn us off even after that initial attraction.
So man sees female with a hot body and think's she's sexy , 
Ok.
Man finds out she's just 14,
Not Ok.
I think right there is where the blurring of the lines takes place.
In the vid posted , none of these guys saw the bodies of the women they thought were 13 or 14 yr olds, all they were shown were pics of their " innocent " looking faces.

I think the attraction of these men to those " kids" was their innocence. The men wanted to be the first to sexually exploit the kid's innocence. That's why the decoy's approach was so effective in every case.
From the vid, it seems to me that all of these guys preferred a certain body type, one of the first questions they asked after finding out the girl's age was their bra size.
This tells me that they knew exactly what they were looking for , and were accustomed lusting after little girls.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thinkitthrough said:


> Just a thought, Brain Science tells us that there are real structural differences between men and women. *Then it was found that Homosexuality is largely genetic. How would we respond to finding that Pedophilia is also genetic and that they cannot help themselves*


And therein lies another problem.
Suppose the root of the problem is really " genetic "?
Then what?
How then do we differentiate nature from nurture?
That's an entirely different can of worms.


----------



## LongWalk

Some men are emotionally color blind. Part of their brain just cannot understand what is socially acceptable because their ability to empathize is weak. They cannot connect with grown women

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## alexm

When I started dated my ex wife, she was 16 and I was just 18. I learned a couple of weeks later that she had been in a "relationship" with a 23 or 24 year old man (who was also married, but he told her they were separated. Even though they still lived together). They worked at the same place, side by side, and it was not difficult for him to get her in bed, the first time, the way she tells it. Looking back (and I'm going back almost 20 years here, now) he obviously spent some time grooming her. She would have been 15 at the time. He was overweight, balding, not at all attractive. My ex wife was very attractive, but like most 15 year old girls, not that self confident. He would bring her out shopping, buy her things, they'd hang out and do things that adults do. So she felt like she was being treated like an adult.

It was only several years later that she fully realized the impact of what he had done, that's how much he got into her head. Up until then, she just saw him as her older boyfriend.

I also don't believe that he thought any of this was wrong, either. He was unashamed about all of it. It's not like as soon as he realized I was in the picture (a guy her age), that he backed off and hid, or was afraid he'd be outed. He still continued to pursue her. The fact that they'd go on dates, in public, obviously didn't register with him. My ex wife, when she was 15, 16 LOOKED like she was 15, 16. He was balding, and looked older than she had told me he was. So he obviously wasn't concerned with being out in public with her. Bizarre. And sad.

Obviously it creeped me out when I first learned of this, but what made it worse was that I ended up taking a job at this same place (though after this guy had left). He would come in from time to time and overtly flirt with her, right in front of me (and others) then find some reason to insult or otherwise make fun of me. Flash me a smile as he was leaving. He'd even call her from time to time over the next year, ostensibly to see if she was available again, I imagine. In retrospect, I am amazed that some of the other adults who were around us never called him out on this, or said something to him, or my ex wife. I thought it was creepy, but I was still just 18, and thought nothing more of it. Our other co-workers ranged in age from their 20's right up to their 50's and 60's. People who should have been more than just "creeped out" by it. Knowing what I know now, if I saw this happening right in front of me, I wouldn't have just let it go. I'd at least have had a chat with the young girl once the man left, or even alerted the authorities.

It is my opinion that he just never grew up, and having a younger "girlfriend" and otherwise associating with younger people (including in how he acted towards me) allowed him to relive his glory days. What little I was told about him was that he was quite the popular man in high school, married young, and didn't quite amount to anything (at least career wise) afterwards. Lost some hair, put on some weight, all in his early 20's. Basically his life stalled after school.

Regardless, as the next few years passed between my ex wife and I, the more we both realized the full magnitude of all of this. Initially, I just thought it was gross. She just thought of it as having an older boyfriend. As we both entered our 20's, and looked at 14, 15, 16 year old kids, that was a different story, and we realized the pedophilia aspect of it all. So after all those years, she ended up being disturbed by it, but not until then.


----------



## Deejo

Caribbean Man said:


> That was the same rationale HIV infected men in South Africa , Nigeria and a few other countries on the African continent used when they were having sex with pubescent , underaged girls.
> They thought that sex with these girls would " cure " them of HIV.
> That misguided " cultural concept" contributed significantly to the HIV / AIDS pandemic in Africa that almost wiped out an entire generation ,during the 90's.


You're being kind here. Infants less than a year old were systemically being raped with the belief that having sex with a virgin female would cure HIV.

This subject is a trigger for me. No idea why. Violence and abuse against women and children is abhorrent to me. It's visceral. The urges these kind of men cause in me as a result of their urges is to commit violence with extreme prejudice.

I have a friend that left her marriage because her husband is 'non-offending' pedophile.
She found his porn. And then she noticed the way he leered at and interacted with female children at their business. He claims he would never act on his compulsion, that he has too much to lose. But as you point out ... these guys operate under the cover of being family men and upstanding citizens.

Years ago I worked in a program for troubled kids. We had sexual predators there as young as 14, who preyed upon children half their age. The circumstances that created these child monsters were equally horrific. Yeah ... I have no problem calling them monsters.

I suppose my pathology, is the belief that these individuals CANNOT change. The only way you ever know if they have things 'under control' is that there are no more victims. And in my mind, that is too high a price to pay. Therefore I see absolutely no reason to keep them around whatsoever.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> I suppose my pathology, is the belief that these individuals CANNOT change. The only way you ever know if they have things 'under control' is that there are no more victims.* And in my mind, that is too high a price to pay. Therefore I see absolutely no reason to keep them around whatsoever.*


:iagree:

I don't think they ever change , Somehow, as a few other posters hinted , something went terribly wrong in their wiring, in the early stages of their life.

Earlier this year, in our country, a highly qualified male chemistry teacher was busted by some students for having inappropriate relations with one of the female students, at a prestigious all girls Catholic School.
Apparently, he was fired from another all girls boarding school in the USA, for having sex with a 13 yr old pupil.

He fled back home to Trinidad to escape charges. 

He landed a job at the Catholic school , and was overly casual & friendly with his students. He started sending nude pics of himself to a particular 14 yr old , via facebook , and texting her.
She showed her friend and they decided to run a few online searches on him.
They were shocked when they saw an online newspaper article that claimed he was wanted in the USA to face charges of having sex with an underaged girl, which gave the sordid details.

Apparently the local Catholic school didn't do a background check, because he was young and very qualified.
The girls then went to the victim's mom. 
Her mom is an attorney.
He was arrested , and is facing trial here, but most likely he would be extradited back to the US to face trial for the sex crime.
Of course when the sh!t hit media, all hell broke loose. The school tried unsuccessfully to cover it up, but the girl's mother is a prominent attorney.

What I found interesting was that the time frame between fleeing the USA after the initial incident, and the incident here , was just four months. Apparently , he just couldn't help himself.
A young , otherwise successful man.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Jokes about kids being molested are becoming main stream in movies and TV's now. Just watched an episode called "Charlie Got Molested" on Its Always Sunny the other day. And Adam Sandler has done several really horrible running jokes about child sex abuse in several of his movies. I don't get why this is "ok" these days? Is it because many/most people have experienced at least some amount of it when we were children so we can all relate to it? How sad that is.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I don't think they ever change , Somehow, as a few other posters hinted , something went terribly wrong in their wiring, in the early stages of their life.
> 
> Earlier this year, in our country, a highly qualified male chemistry teacher was busted by some students for having inappropriate relations with one of the female students, at a prestigious all girls Catholic School.
> Apparently, he was fired from another all girls boarding school in the USA, for having sex with a 13 yr old pupil.
> 
> He fled back home to Trinidad to escape charges.
> 
> He landed a job at the Catholic school , and was overly casual & friendly with his students. He started sending nude pics of himself to a particular 14 yr old , via facebook , and texting her.
> She showed her friend and they decided to run a few online searches on him.
> They were shocked when they saw an online newspaper article that claimed he was wanted in the USA to face charges of having sex with an underaged girl, which gave the sordid details.
> 
> Apparently the local Catholic school didn't do a background check, because he was young and very qualified.
> The girls then went to the victim's mom.
> Her mom is an attorney.
> He was arrested , and is facing trial here, but most likely he would be extradited back to the US to face trial for the sex crime.
> Of course when the sh!t hit media, all hell broke loose. The school tried unsuccessfully to cover it up, but the girl's mother was a prominent attorney.
> 
> What I found interesting was the time frame between fleeing the USA after the initial incident, and the incident here , was just four months. Apparently , he just couldn't help himself.
> A young , otherwise successful man.


That sounds very similar to the story of Roman Polanski.  He raped a 13 year old girl. The mighty US hasn't got him in front of court after 36 years. He's even gotten quite a few awards after that.


----------



## TiggyBlue

CouldItBeSo said:


> That sounds very similar to the story of Roman Polanski.  He raped a 13 year old girl. The mighty US hasn't got him in front of court after 36 years. He's even gotten quite a few awards after that.


Quite a few supporter friends as well, it's amazing how many people will turn a blind eye. Even Whoopi Goldberg "rape-rape"


----------



## ntamph

I echo what the other posters have said. There are occasions when a 15-20 year old girl will get noticed but you have to have some common human decency to not go any further than noticing she is pretty.

I think even thinking that a girl under 15 is "hot" is weird. I have not thought that since I was 15.


----------



## sparkyjim

Let me quote some lyrics from a highly popular song...


"She's 16, she's beautiful, and she's mine..."

Anyone recognize this song? It was a big hit by Ringo Starr in 1974 and a number eight song in *1960*.


There are other songs from that era that I wonder about also...


----------



## alexm

sparkyjim said:


> Let me quote some lyrics from a highly popular song...
> 
> 
> "She's 16, she's beautiful, and she's mine..."
> 
> Anyone recognize this song? It was a big hit by Ringo Starr in 1974 and a number eight song in *1960*.
> 
> 
> There are other songs from that era that I wonder about also...


I'm assuming that the original 1960 version was for that age group, so they can identify with the lyrics. It was all about marketing to the kids in that era. They bought the records, not the older crowd. The Ringo version (at which point he was in his early 30's) is creepy.

Speaking of musicians and the generation gap, what about Jerry Lee Lewis? I believe when he married his 13 year old cousin, there was a bit of a backlash, but he still maintained his career... ugh. And more recently, R. Kelly with a 14 year old girl.

Money talks.


----------



## alexm

ntamph said:


> I echo what the other posters have said. There are occasions when a 15-20 year old girl will get noticed but you have to have some common human decency to not go any further than noticing she is pretty.
> 
> I think even thinking that a girl under 15 is "hot" is weird. I have not thought that since I was 15.


Only under 15? I pretty much draw the line at about 25 these days!

IMO, I still think it's creepy when a 30 or 40 something year old man checks out an 18, 19, 20 year old. It's legal, sure, but there's still something "not right" about it.

People generally don't really grow up until they hit their mid-20's, or even later. Most of my friends are in the mid-30's to mid-40's age range, and if one of them showed up with a 22 year old girl on his arm, it'd make the rest of us feel uncomfortable! We wouldn't think he's a pedophile or anything, but all the same.

To me, these people are into younger women/girls because they're perceived as easier targets. When you're a kid (literally), it's not difficult to be told by an adult that things are okay. In the case of my ex-wife, it probably made her feel pretty cool that a 20-something year old dude was into her. Although she was likely groomed, she still had the capacity to make her own decisions and didn't really have to be coerced into anything. The same is not true if it's a 12 year old, or younger. They generally know something isn't right, but the people who do this kind of **** have ways of making them feel it's okay enough to do. Or threatening them. Now if you're in your late teens or early 20's, and it's legal, the 40 year old man sees targets that are perceived as easy in other ways. For the most part, we're all more sexually adventurous and free at that age, and although you're technically an adult, the brain still isn't wired the way it is later on in life. You make poor decisions more easily. The difference between 16 and 18, or 17 and 19 isn't that much. Not enough, imo anyway, to make it suddenly be okay with a 35 year old man to hit on you.

At the end of the day, the legal age is just the dividing line between "you can't do this" and "you can totally do this". It's the difference between 10 years in prison, or your buddies high fiving you. The issue is more teaching people that, even though it's legal, it's not always right, and removing that from the male lexicon. You can't start making laws that say 18 is the legal age, but only if the other person is 25 or under. (like we mostly all already do with the "legal age" of 14, or 15 for example. Some people don't quite seem to get that law, either. They assume that if 14 is the legal age in whatever country, then they're fair game. Here, the age is 14, provided the other person is younger than 18 (or 19, I can't remember). This doesn't mean that 14 is fair game for adults.

Technically, if 2 people have been dating since one was 14, and the other 16, and the older of the two hits 19, while the other is still only 17, it's statutory rape (if they're sexually active). The law generally tends to look the other way (as they should), but if the parents of the younger one had a major hate on for their kids boyfriend or girlfriend, they could cause some real crap if they wanted to, and hired a good lawyer.

So at the end of the day, whether the girl is 12, 15, or 18, they're still being targeted by these people. The end is the same, it's the means that are different.


----------



## larry.gray

Caribbean Man said:


> Also I think that it has been scientifically proven that young girls at that age of 08 - 14 having sew with much bigger men are more likely to suffer from cervical cancers and STI's , because her reproductive system aren't fully developed.


That's been determined to be a high correlation between young sexual experience and high chances of catching HPV. 90% of cervical cancers are from HPV. If a girl doesn't catch HPV from the abuse itself, she is likely to catch it from the promiscuity that invariably follows sexual abuse.


----------



## Caribbean Man

larry.gray said:


> That's been determined to be a high correlation between young sexual experience and high chances of catching HPV. 90% of cervical cancers are from HPV. If a girl doesn't catch HPV from the abuse itself, she is likely to catch it from the promiscuity that invariably follows sexual abuse.



Sometime ago , I came across a very interesting website / blog dealing with sexual abuse ,promiscuity and teenaged pregnancy.
Interestingly enough , the site was run by a bunch of college girls.

It gave some gloomy statistics.

Can't remember the site right now, maybe I'll post it later in this thread.


----------



## sparkyjim

The opinions that I have read stated that a man became fixated or "frozen" on the age at which he first started to notice the opposite sex. In other words, he didn't mature sexually and he didn't really notice real women of his own age, but kept the boyhood fantasy of the age he fixated on.

Of course this does not make any sense to me from my own experience, because I was first attracted to women 5 or 6 years older than me (me being around 13) perhaps because they were "women" in every sense of the word. Why someone would be attracted to a sexually immature female is beyond me.

Either way - I believe it is some sort of disconnect of the male from reality. I believe that it becomes an obsession which is based in an unrealistic world, and it is fueled because the man feeds the desire- without trying to understand his own inadequacies which are underlying his attraction.


----------



## RandomDude

I don't care about understanding such "people", the damage they inflict on children's lives is simply just too much. They need to be cleaned out, not jailed. Same with rapists.


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't want us to confuse normal male sexual attraction to the female gender with this under age predator behaviour.
> 
> I agree that on a visceral level,sexual attraction is quite normal in all of us both male and female.


But that's just it. The age you've identified is right on the cusp. If you need a "kill switch" to identify your sexual attraction as inappropriate, then surely that attraction is normal? What if you never actually find out she's just 14 years old? 

As norajane pointed out earlier, there is an entire culture of men lusting after underage girls and counting down until they reach legal age. What encourages this? An entire culture presenting underage girls as sexually mature adults. Tween girls pick up these messages and will do their best to present themselves in this fashion, often as young as 12.

I agree with others here that it's creepy for a man to be lusting after a girl, and find it gross when I see it happen. I know my reaction to young boys is just to see them as children, and not at all as sexual beings. But I can also see another side where the sexualization of young girls is constantly reinforced, even by those young girls themselves.

When I was 15 years old, I lived on my own and so was a bit more mature than the average girl that age. I never dated anyone under 20, and often much older. A few of these guys were definitively creepy, and best avoided, but were they all? No doubt I would've been extremely offended if someone tried to tell me in those days that I was too young to date men --as even then I had no interest in boys.

Now if we're talking about prepubescent girls who are clearly not sexually mature, then I think that's a different story, and something is indeed very, very wrong.


----------



## larry.gray

sparkyjim said:


> The opinions that I have read stated that a man became fixated or "frozen" on the age at which he first started to notice the opposite sex. In other words, he didn't mature sexually and he didn't really notice real women of his own age, but kept the boyhood fantasy of the age he fixated on.


I've heard that for fashion sense, particularly women's hair styles.

As far as ages, that's not true for me either. The bottom age for me hasn't budged much and the top age just keeps moving with me for what I find attractive.


----------



## larry.gray

always_alone said:


> But that's just it. The age you've identified is right on the cusp. If you need a "kill switch" to identify your sexual attraction as inappropriate, then surely that attraction is normal? What if you never actually find out she's just 14 years old?


I think that the base attraction is indeed 'normal' and has been conditioned out by western society. Being a dad of two teen girls, I'm very glad it has been conditioned out. But I also realize that it's under there in most guys. Many have been conditioned so well they don't even think about it. They use the same mechanism for other "off limits" women - i.e. sisters, cousins and so on.


----------



## Racer

I'm mostly going to stay out of this thread (tweener daughter & nieces). I would say attraction to a 14 year old isn't morally wrong, acting on that attraction is though in my opinion.

Want to make someone squirm? Watch Blue Lagoon with Brooke Shields... remember she was 14 when that was filmed.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> But that's just it. The age you've identified is right on the cusp. If you need a "kill switch" to identify your sexual attraction as inappropriate, then surely that attraction is normal? What if you never actually find out she's just 14 years old?


I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say.
Men are attracted to breast, hips, legs and asses on the female form . It excites them at a visceral level.
Some 12 , 13 and 14 year old girls look very mature, they are like kids in the body of an adult.
A man who doesn't know their age would naturally be attracted
_to their body._

Nothing is wrong with that attraction.
However , if upon finding out her age he still persists to act upon that attraction, then something is morally wrong with that.
and that is what I've identified in my previous post. 

He desires to exploit the innocence of a person who is inexperienced and ill equipped mentally and emotionally to understand the potential consequences of their actions.
Intrinsic in his desire , is exploitation of innocence , he has an unfair immoral advantage simply because he's an adult.

It is comparable to a military superpower attacking an unarmed , peaceful smaller country , unprovoked, for the sole purposes of taking it's natural resources.


----------



## Caribbean Man

larry.gray said:


> I think that the base attraction is indeed 'normal' and has been conditioned out by western society. Being a dad of two teen girls, I'm very glad it has been conditioned out. *But I also realize that it's under there in most guys. Many have been conditioned so well they don't even think about it. They use the same mechanism for other "off limits" women - i.e. sisters, cousins and so on.*


Yes.

That is exactly what I'm talking about.
Most men would understand it and how to spot the difference.


----------



## larry.gray

The part where I would worry about denying it being there altogether is it could get a guy in trouble. If a guy isn't thinking along those lines AT ALL, and then she 'dangles the cookie' before him and suddenly he's thinking things that could get him in a lot of trouble if he doesn't turn it down. You've got to use your big head to keep you from getting into situations where your little head won't take over.


----------



## Anubis

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes.
> 
> That is exactly what I'm talking about.
> Most men would understand it and how to spot the difference.


From a evolutionary biology perspective it makes sense that men will have hard wiring to be attracted to the aspects of females that show that they are able to bear children and raise them, with a preference for youth and fitness, as it indicates more energy to raise the child and fewer siblings to compete for attention/resources. 

It's notable that the age of puberty has dropped by more than a couple years in just the last couple centuries (better nutrition and health to blame), while I would think that brain development has stayed the same.

I think there's a big difference in being attracting to a girl showing the signs of fertility vs one that isn't (younger) though, enough to treat those as different issues. No matter though, in our current society we have social and legal constructs that take priority over any base impulses, and it's something we have to learn. 

And it's really become important for men to know (and teach their sons) this and keep from even the appearance of impropriety when it comes to underage girls - as even false accusations can be incredibly traumatic and damaging to the rest of their lives due the current legal, justice and social work systems.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anubis said:


> From a evolutionary biology perspective it makes sense that men will have hard wiring to be attracted to the aspects of females that show that they are able to bear children and raise them, with a preference for youth and fitness, as it indicates more energy to raise the child and fewer siblings to compete for attention/resources.
> 
> It's notable that the age of puberty has dropped by more than a couple years in just the last couple centuries (better nutrition and health to blame), while I would think that brain development has stayed the same.
> 
> *I think there's a big difference in being attracting to a girl showing the signs of fertility vs one that isn't (younger) though, enough to treat those as different issues. No matter though, in our current society we have social and legal constructs that take priority over any base impulses, and it's something we have to learn.
> 
> And it's really become important for men to know (and teach their sons) this and keep from even the appearance of impropriety when it comes to underage girls - as even false accusations can be incredibly traumatic and damaging to the rest of their lives due the current legal, justice and social work systems.*


I agree fully with both yours and Larry's posts.

Historically , a girl was considered a woman when she got her first menses . Marriage was arranged , sometimes to a man much older than her .
The legal and social constructs back then were much different than now , and purely survival based. A twenty something yr old un married woman still at her mother's home was unthinkable.

But times have changed and so the the concepts / constructs. Women have access to lots more options ,education and jobs ,even from a tender age.

If we look at erotic art through the ages , we would observe that what was considered as a sexually attractive , desirable famine figure has changed dramatically over the years. What most men now consider as " fat" ( lol , not me I like voluptuous women! ) back then was considered as highly desirable . Even that too , has changed.

I'm thinking , yes we are hard wired that way for selecting the fittest female viz reproductive potential. But I believe that culture has a tremendous impact on the way we perceive , think and act.
We no longer plough the fields with a
" yoke of oxen ",neither do we give obeisance to the gods in hope of a bountiful harvest. We have literally mastered the external , physical world around us and turned the odds in our favor.

Why is it so difficult then for some of us to change our thinking on this particular matter?
I agree that it's controversial , but only because we make it . Otherwise , it's a simple matter.


----------



## Pault

Good Question this......

I have to say that I find those who search out and abuse teens of the age specified appalling. However, I have to just throw in here, its not just guys anymore.

It appears more and more women are also starting to do this. Ive just seen a Uk news blog where a 30 something female teacher was having sex with a 15 year old lad. Its not the first case Ive seen either. I have to agree with many of the replies here , if you have an urge that bad that you would risk every single day being caught and the fact that its takes a milli second for the authorities to get on to this as soonn as even a rumour comes out then you must have a conscience made of cast iron.

These practices have always been there from what I see historically. Its just I suspect with the way we can communicate now the stories are coming to light from every corner of the world so quickly.


----------



## larry.gray

Women have been doing this all along, they just haven't been called on it. They still don't get caught anywhere near as often, and when they do, they get a slap on the wrist. Too many men are thinking "I wish that was me when I was 14" for harsh sentences to be thrown down.


----------



## always_alone

larry.gray said:


> Women have been doing this all along, they just haven't been called on it. They still don't get caught anywhere near as often, and when they do, they get a slap on the wrist. Too many men are thinking "I wish that was me when I was 14" for harsh sentences to be thrown down.


True, and there is a total double standard around this. Young men are supposed to want sex and be congratulated every time they get it, no matter the age of the woman. Young women, on the other hand, are not supposed to want sex, and they are to be shamed for having it. The boys are said to have wanted it anyway; the girls were obviously manipulated into it.

This is changing, as people now see that boys can be manipulated and girls can instigate it. But the double standards are still prevalent.


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> Why is it so difficult then for some of us to change our thinking on this particular matter?


Well, I still say it's because our world invests a great deal in sexualizing young girls.

Look up, for example, the peekaboo pole dancing kit aimed to "unleash the sex kitten" in your preteen girl. Or Miss Bimbo.

Or Thylane Blondeau (age 10) or Elle Fanning (age 13)

Or Bratz dolls, or padded bras for 7 year olds, or thongs that read "eye candy" or "wink wink" for 10 year olds, or an episode of toddler's and tiaras, 

Or, or, or, or, or..

It's a crazy world we live in.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> Well, I still say it's because our world invests a great deal in sexualizing young girls.
> 
> Look up, for example, the peekaboo pole dancing kit aimed to "unleash the sex kitten" in your preteen girl. Or Miss Bimbo.
> 
> Or Thylane Blondeau (age 10) or Elle Fanning (age 13)
> 
> Or Bratz dolls, or padded bras for 7 year olds, or thongs that read "eye candy" or "wink wink" for 10 year olds, or an episode of toddler's and tiaras,
> 
> Or, or, or, or, or..
> 
> It's a crazy world we live in.


Wait a minute,
Interesting observation.
I think you might be on to something there.
I just never looked at as " sexualization" but as
"_ commercialization of their juvenescence_ ." But since you put it that way, sex sells...
Connect the dots,
And the rest as we say, "_ is history._."


----------



## southern wife

Caribbean Man said:


> I am inclined to think that sexual attraction to teenage girls or boys is morally wrong.


:iagree:


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> Connect the dots,
> And the rest as we say, "_ is history._."


The mixed messages and hypocrisy around sex and youth is staggering, IMHO.


----------



## Accipiter777

sparkyjim said:


> Let me quote some lyrics from a highly popular song...
> 
> 
> "She's 16, she's beautiful, and she's mine..."
> 
> Anyone recognize this song? It was a big hit by Ringo Starr in 1974 and a number eight song in *1960*.
> 
> 
> There are other songs from that era that I wonder about also...


She's just sixteen years old
Leave her alone, they say
Separated by fools
Who don't know what love is yet
But I want you to know
If I could fly
I'd pick you up
I'd take you into the night
And show you a love
Like you've never seen, ever seen

Benny Mardones - Into the Night

And this song -

And just when I thought she was comin' to my door 
She whispered sweet and brought me to the floor
She said

I'm only seventeen (seventeen)
But I'll show you love like you've never seen
She's only seventeen 
Daddy says she's too young, but she's old enough for me 

Winger - 17

Just Google Searched "Songs underage sex" and found TONS.... 

This permeates our media and entertainment.


----------



## alexm

always_alone said:


> True, and there is a total double standard around this. Young men are supposed to want sex and be congratulated every time they get it, no matter the age of the woman. Young women, on the other hand, are not supposed to want sex, and they are to be shamed for having it. The boys are said to have wanted it anyway; the girls were obviously manipulated into it.
> 
> This is changing, as people now see that boys can be manipulated and girls can instigate it. But the double standards are still prevalent.


Interesting. I have second-hand experience with this. My former BIL, so the story goes, lost his virginity at the age of 13 or 14 to an older woman (around 30). I remember my ex-wife telling me this, and she was chuckling. Of course, she essentially did the same thing herself (see my post a few pages back). So I guess when it's YOU that's doing this, and it's not forced, it's okay?

For what it's worth, my former BIL ended up being a total womanizer, and a serial cheater. He also generally only dated older women, until he was around that age himself. I wonder how much of his first experience had to do with any of this.


----------



## whitehawk

always_alone said:


> True, and there is a total double standard around this. Young men are supposed to want sex and be congratulated every time they get it, no matter the age of the woman. Young women, on the other hand, are not supposed to want sex, and they are to be shamed for having it. The boys are said to have wanted it anyway; the girls were obviously manipulated into it.
> 
> This is changing, as people now see that boys can be manipulated and girls can instigate it. But the double standards are still prevalent.




You bet , it's very common in women. Baby sitters, aunties , mothers , many a mother through history has held her son back to keep him for sex .
One thing l've learned and have had to except while going through my separation. For every male thing there's the female equivalent , often worse. They're definitely of my better than men pedestal list which l think too , society in general has had them on forever until now.


----------



## whitehawk

alexm said:


> Interesting. I have second-hand experience with this. My former BIL, so the story goes, lost his virginity at the age of 13 or 14 to an older woman (around 30). I remember my ex-wife telling me this, and she was chuckling. Of course, she essentially did the same thing herself (see my post a few pages back). So I guess when it's YOU that's doing this, and it's not forced, it's okay?
> 
> For what it's worth, my former BIL ended up being a total womanizer, and a serial cheater. He also generally only dated older women, until he was around that age himself. I wonder how much of his first experience had to do with any of this.


And see , there you go. Women have it so easy in lots of things but this stuff.
l can tell you l think l see more than the average person and l've heard or noticed women of all ages commenting on young boys , 100s of times over the years.

But it wasn't until just this last few yrs , l excepted that it was in fact in just the same way many guys might comment on a young girl only he usually wouldn't because he'd get the look. And he'd get it from a female that does it herself, only we're not suppose to know it's the same thing. But it's no different , watch , you'll see. And , if they do touch it usually just gets treated as you say.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I understand and have seen what you guys are referring to , but I don't think it's the same with men as with women.

When I was about 14 yrs a grown woman tried to seduce me, but I never felt threatened or " violated." Just thought it was creepy. My testosterone hadn't started kicking in as yet.
Not that she was bad looking, but her aggressiveness threw me off balance. 

Not saying that both acts are not immoral,, but men and boys especially,are wire different sexually than women.


----------



## DarkHoly

Biology is biology. We can conjure all sorts of ideas and terms to cope with it for the sake of attaching stigma to it. Predators. Pedophiles. Sociopaths. 

But you're only bending yourself around the reality of millions of years of evolution.


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> Not saying that both acts are not immoral,, but men and boys especially,are wire different sexually than women.


Not so sure it's a difference in wiring. I think it's largely a difference in training, both in the lead up to sexuality and the way it is dealt with after the fact.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> Not so sure it's a difference in wiring. I think it's largely a difference in training, both in the lead up to sexuality and the way it is dealt with after the fact.


Well , we'll have to disagree there.

However I've been wanting to ask you as question from a previous post on this thread.

Can I?


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> However I've been wanting to ask you as question from a previous post on this thread.
> 
> Can I?


Sure. Shoot.


----------



## southern wife

DarkHoly said:


> Predators. Pedophiles. Sociopaths.



Any one of them that harms a child, tries to have sex with a child.........should be hung.......









............by their balls! 



Sending them to jail  only to be released at some given point in time, does NOTHING!

HANG 'EM!!!!


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> Sure. Shoot.


I read a post from you a couple of days ago on this thread where you stated that at age 15 you were living by yourself and dated much older men.

In hindsight , how do you now view those men and their relationhip with you?


----------



## Marriedand40

Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong.

People preying on children is disgusting, that's the end of it.

Nothing is worse than poverty, look at the Phillipines, Thailand and of course here in North America. People there sell their children off to pay for their other kids. Any man travelling to Thailand alone should be followed because most of the time it's to Bangkok to abuse kids.

So, so sad and heartbreaking.

I realise it's more traumatizing for a young woman to be scarred for life if they are taken advantage of as a young girl as opposed to a boy but if this problem is to be solved than a woman taking advantage of a 14 year old boy needs to be punished just as much as a man taking advantage of a 14 year old boy. 

It's sad that kids are bombarded with sexual images, commercials, TV shows, clothing, etc at a young age and that will never change.

I do think that parents should set more boundaries on dating. I remember some girls having boyfriends in grade 7 and 8 when I was in school. That is way too young. Even if you are only kissing at that age it's human nature that you are going to experiment with other things (nowadays namely oral sex) at younger ages.

Sports, music, dance, skating, etc are activities that can keep kids busy along with schoolwork to keep their mind off of finding a boyfriend or girlfriend.

Also, mothers shouldn't let their daughters out of the house in revealing clothing. If your daughter looks older, nothing she can do about that but she doesn't need to advertise her womanly curves because even if she is trying not to show it off, the pedophiles sure will notice it.


----------



## olwhatsisname

ASummersDay said:


> I don't work directly with sex offenders (who have not all committed crimes against children, I should point out) but I have several associates who do and have had to attend several trainings. Current knowledge in the field does align with what FormerSelf posted. Offender groups focus on creating a climate of safety so that the offender(s) will feel comfortable honestly expressing their desires and creating a plan to avoid acting on them.
> 
> Research on the development of normal human sexuality - attraction to other sexually mature adults - shows that it is actually very complex. It isn't entirely biological and it isn't entirely cultural. My understanding as far as otherwise "normal" adults that are attracted to children is that something goes horribly wrong during the development of their sexual attraction, possibly extreme trauma or a combination of trauma and genetic predisposition. But as I said, there is simply no justification for pursuing a child sexually. Even an adult who feels attraction for minors has the capacity to understand that it is wrong to have sex with them. I don't have any empathy for anyone who would make that choice.
> 
> ETA: I feel that young teenagers who have been through puberty are still children in all respects except perhaps physically, by the most technical definitions. In my mind, they are still children, and any adult who pursues them sexually is wrong to do so.


.> during the 60's I heard the saying
old enough to bleed/old enough to breed. I don't know where that sort of thinking started, but believe it is rampant in the middle East, but in the world today.perhaps sociate lets it be instead of confronting it directly.


----------



## samyeagar

southern wife said:


> Any one of them that harms a child, tries to have sex with a child.........should be hung.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...........*.by their balls!*
> 
> 
> 
> Sending them to jail  only to be released at some given point in time, does NOTHING!
> 
> HANG 'EM!!!!


And you hang the women who do this by their...what?


----------



## southern wife

samyeagar said:


> And you hang the women who do this by their...what?


Necks


----------



## Caribbean Man

@Always_Alone,

I nasked you the question because I'm trying to get at something.

I personally know two women who , when they were 14 and 15 yrs old had much older men for lovers.
These men were their " first and only."

One was a classmate of mine and the other my older cousin.
My cousin NEVER had another lover , but that man who is 15 years older than her. She married when she finished school ,
AND TODAY THEY ARE STILL HAPPILY MARRIED.

I ran into her recently at the mall and asked for her husband. There he was ,as usual in close proximity to her. They were always physically close.

She's a grandmother now ,as her daughter has recently married and had a kid.

But they both still look very young for their age and still in love.

My classmate also married her much older lover after she finished her studies and they lasted quite a while. But I heard that she got divorced some time ago.

What I'm wondering is in your particular case, how did you view your relationship?
I'm thinking that you would have been more mature than your peers, because you lived on your own.
So how did you manage those type of relationships, and in hindsight , do you think that those men had your best interest at heart, like in the two examples I gave, or do you feel as if they were just there nbecause they wanted a " young" body?


----------



## southern wife

These types of people are obviously a threat and NO GOOD to society, so instead of putting them behind bars temporarily, get rid of them permanently.



Shark bait.


----------



## Caribbean Man

southern wife said:


> These types of people are obviously a threat and NO GOOD to society, so instead of putting them behind bars temporarily, get rid of them permanently.
> 
> 
> 
> Shark bait.


SW,
I suspect when your sweetie reaches that age , you would have both your licensced gun and lots of practise....


----------



## southern wife

Caribbean Man said:


> SW,
> I suspect when your sweetie reaches that age , you would have both your licensced gun and lots of practise....


A bullet is "too nice".



I'd have to personally cut off his nuts........








.........slowly..........













.........with a knife!


----------



## Fozzy

always_alone said:


> Well, I still say it's because our world invests a great deal in sexualizing young girls.
> 
> Look up, for example, the peekaboo pole dancing kit aimed to "unleash the sex kitten" in your preteen girl. Or Miss Bimbo.
> 
> Or Thylane Blondeau (age 10) or Elle Fanning (age 13)
> 
> Or* Bratz dolls*, or padded bras for 7 year olds, or thongs that read "eye candy" or "wink wink" for 10 year olds, or an episode of toddler's and tiaras,
> 
> Or, or, or, or, or..
> 
> It's a crazy world we live in.


I've had.....disagreements....with my mother in law over Bratz dolls. She find nothing disagreeable about them. I think they're creepy as hell and won't allow them in my house. They even have a "Bratz Babies" line. Seriously....imagine dolls and cartoons of toddlers in training pants with hooker make-up. I fear for my girls.


----------



## southern wife

I'm not a fan of the Bratz Dolls either. My 7 year old likes them, but I refuse to buy them.


----------



## GTdad

southern wife said:


> I'm not a fan of the Bratz Dolls either. My 7 year old likes them, but I refuse to buy them.


Funny how those things trigger some widespread dismay. My wife and I refuse to buy them, too.

And just to add: I have four daughters. Woe unto the older, predatory bastard who takes an interest in any of them. And yes, I in my sole discretion get to decide what's too old and predatory.


----------



## Caribbean Man

GTdad said:


> And just to add: I have four daughters. Woe unto the older, predatory bastard who takes an interest in any of them. *And yes, I in my sole discretion get to decide what's too old and predatory.*


:smthumbup:

But beware, lest you get the dreaded, my dad is an
" _insecure , controlling neandertahal_ " label attached to you.


----------



## GTdad

Caribbean Man said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> But beware, lest you get the dreaded, my dad is an
> " _insecure , controlling neandertahal_ " label attached to you.


I'm good with that. I'd probably revel in it a little.

Heaven knows I've been called worse.


----------



## chillymorn

southern wife said:


> Necks


wait a minute why do men have to suffer and be hung by their ....Balls but women just get the quick kill of being hung by their necks?

shouldn't they be hung by their cl1ts.:scratchhead:

now that would be painfull!


----------



## whitehawk

southern wife said:


> Any one of them that harms a child, tries to have sex with a child.........should be hung.......
> 
> 
> Yes but l notice you chose males to punish , you see. Yet again even straight after a female story , you conveniently don't include both with hate .
> So should they be hung up by the clits or what , it's exactly the same thing !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ............by their balls!
> 
> 
> 
> Sending them to jail  only to be released at some given point in time, does NOTHING!
> 
> HANG 'EM!!!!


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> I read a post from you a couple of days ago on this thread where you stated that at age 15 you were living by yourself and dated much older men.
> 
> In hindsight , how do you now view those men and their relationhip with you?


That's a hard question --I have many thoughts and mixed feelings.

On one side was this one guy about 9 years older than me who was the first person I ever really fell for in a big way. He didn't, at first, even ask my age, and I didn't volunteer the information. When the subject did come up, he was clearly surprised and a bit perturbed. Sometime later, I overheard a conversation between him and a friend about it where he struggled with his conscience. He liked me, but couldn't get over the age difference, and dumped me. I was utterly heartbroken at the time, and didn't think the age difference was that big a deal. 

OF course, now I completely understand why he felt the way he did, but a part of me still thinks it's too bad that I wasn't older or he wasn't younger.

On the other extreme was a guy I went out on one date with. At first I was flattered by his attention and impressed by his flash, but then started feeling the creep factor. I forget how old he was, but he had a son who would've been more age appropriate for me, and this was but one of the red flags I saw from him. I'm not even sure I can articulate what happened exactly, but basically I got more and more grossed out by him, until eventually I mumbled some excuses and fled the scene. He clearly did *not* have my best interests in mind in any way.

Anyone else was somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, right through to when I came "of age". Some who expressed interest in me were friends that I hung out with, and so not just looking for young tail. At the same time, looking back, I think there were quite a few that only had their own gratification in mind, and I wish now that I was more savvy to that dynamic, as it would've saved me a lot of grief and pain.


----------



## DarkHoly

southern wife said:


> Any one of them that harms a child, tries to have sex with a child.........should be hung.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ............by their balls!
> 
> 
> 
> Sending them to jail  only to be released at some given point in time, does NOTHING!
> 
> HANG 'EM!!!!


Well someone's projecting. Someone is also arbitrarily dictating norms and moral universalism. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

I started off by saying that this is a very controversial topic.
Everyone has their own deep feelings on it .

I don't think SW is projecting anything different to what every other man on this thread is saying. Nobody likes this stuff to happen to their daughters and justifiably , they would have negative emotions towards the preps. 

I think that can be equated as empathy for the victims, and I don't think that it's misplaced.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Anubis said:


> From a evolutionary biology perspective it makes sense that men will have hard wiring to be attracted to the aspects of females that show that they are able to bear children and raise them, with a preference for youth and fitness, as it indicates more energy to raise the child and fewer siblings to compete for attention/resources.
> 
> It's notable that the age of puberty has dropped by more than a couple years in just the last couple centuries (better nutrition and health to blame), while I would think that brain development has stayed the same.
> 
> I think there's a big difference in being attracting to a girl showing the signs of fertility vs one that isn't (younger) though, enough to treat those as different issues. No matter though, in our current society we have social and legal constructs that take priority over any base impulses, and it's something we have to learn.
> 
> And it's really become important for men to know (and teach their sons) this and *keep from even the appearance of impropriety* when it comes to underage girls - as even false accusations can be incredibly traumatic and damaging to the rest of their lives due the current legal, justice and social work systems.


And who gets to decide if you have violated the appearance of impropriety? Certainly not you or I ... so how do you teach this to your sons? You would have to teach them to embrace the politically correct view, which changes with the wind. I like your idea in principle, but dislike its implementation.


----------



## larry.gray

Caribbean Man said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> But beware, lest you get the dreaded, my dad is an
> " _insecure , controlling neandertahal_ " label attached to you.


I've already got that reputation, and my daughter has only dated nice young men that I approve of. I'd hate to see what happens if she brought home a 'too old' loser.


----------



## larry.gray

:iagree:

When I come across articles about different ways girls have been preyed upon, I read them and discuss them with both of my daughters. I worry the most about online activity. The big thing I want them to know is that even if they get pictures and a long story from some other supposed teenager, it still might be a 45 y/o guy playing them. 

I think some ethical / moral positions are absolute. Subjugating one person / gender below another is one example. If two people can't be equals in a relationship, then one is being exploited. I do not accept the social norms of a culture that do not align with this.


----------



## larry.gray

One more point to add to what 2galsmom said:

Elizabeth Smart said part of the reason she didn't try to escape is because she thought she was "ruined" by her rape. Shame was tried to prevent her losing her virginity. Instead, it made her rape harder to cope with. She lost all self worth as a result.

Thankfully she appears to be a very strong woman who's trying to move on. But note that she wants to strongly make the point that the shaming of young women is not helpful.


----------



## greenfern

My experience in this area was a bit different. First I should say that I am NOT talking about pre-pubescent girls, but rather those 16 or 17 as the song lyrics earlier in this thread were referring to.

When I was 17 I dated a 30 yr old who happened to also be my boss (I probably would never have met a 30 yr old otherwise, at that age). I never felt like he seduced me, it was the other way around. I still do not believe that he was a predator, rather I feel some pity for him that he would date a 17 yr old at that age (especially as I reached 30 myself and saw how immature I was at 17). We dated about 6 months and I broke it off, we remained friendly for a few years before I moved away.

Since then I have never dated much older or younger than me, at least not for long term relationships. 

I recently read "lost memory of skin" by Russell Banks and I think in the US especially the persecution of sexual offenders (a la southern wife) has gone off the rails.


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## greenfern

Hm, I re-read the OP and my post is off topic a bit, sorry! I think the attraction of a grown up man to a girl on the edge of "womanhood" (ie 13 or 14) is natural but only as an appreciation of beauty, there is a special beauty at that age that as a woman I can also appreciate. 

I do NOT think it is normal for that attraction to go beyond a passing appreciation into imagining, fantasizing, or attempting to meet up with girls of that age for sexual purposes.


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## wanttofix

ASummersDay said:


> This is a controversial topic, to say the least. I've met men whose philosophy is, "If there's grass on the field, play ball!" I'm sure there are women who feel the same. Personally I don't agree with that philosophy. I think as adults we have a responsibility to protect children from harm, not use them for personal gratification. Psychologically, legally, and developmentally a 13-14 year old is still a child. They are not adults, and from a developmental standpoint, lack several of the cognitive capabilities that adults have - particularly in the executive system of the brain regarding reasoning and long-term decision making. So in my view, an adult that has those capabilities knows that what they are doing has the potential to cause a lot of harm to many people (including themselves) and should be mature enough to make the decision that is least likely to harm the child (in this case, to NOT pursue sexual contact with a minor).
> 
> In my mind, this issue gets more complicated when you are dealing with two teenagers, for example a 17 year old and 14 year old. But I think the scenarios you described are 100% wrong. There is no justification for it.


I agree with this. I could never want someone in their 20s, let alone someone in their teens. It's just too weird to me. I am too emotionally attached to sex and would need intellectually attachment to it. A teen or 20 something isn't going to do that.


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## The Grey One

Caribbean Man said:


> I am inclined to think that sexual attraction to teenage girls or boys is morally wrong.


Sexual attraction towards any member of the opposite sex who has reached puberty is *normal*. 14 year old girls usually aren't fully developed, so usually they aren't very attractive - but reach the range of 16-18 and many are.

We are biologically programmed to want to spread our genes. Worse yet, we are programmed to want to deny other males the ability to spread theirs.

Younger women are attractive for that reason - they're 'unspoiled' by other men, so we get to plant our flag first.

The key criteria, however, is that we have rational thought. We can find them attractive but not act on it.

It's not immoral to feel sexual attraction - you cannot do anything about your biological impulses. It's immoral to act on them.

Also - there's a world of difference between finding someone attractive and *wanting* to sleep with them.


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## larry.gray

:iagree:

The attraction is not morally wrong. Dwelling on it, thinking about it, and most of all acting on it most certainly are.

As I stated before, I think many men repress this using the same techniques they use for other 'off limits' women. But down underneath, that physical attraction is there. Denying it can lead a man to trouble if he doesn't remain guarded.

Why do I think it's there? Just look at the way men react to a provocatively dressed attractive too young girl. It makes them very uncomfortable. Why? Because their subconscious brain is trying to make your mind think things you really don't want to think.


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## Caribbean Man

The Grey One said:


> Sexual attraction towards any member of the opposite sex who has reached puberty is *normal*. 14 year old girls usually aren't fully developed, so usually they aren't very attractive - but reach the range of 16-18 and many are.
> 
> We are biologically programmed to want to spread our genes. Worse yet, we are programmed to want to deny other males the ability to spread theirs.
> 
> Younger women are attractive for that reason - they're 'unspoiled' by other men, so we get to plant our flag first.
> 
> The key criteria, however, is that we have rational thought. We can find them attractive but not act on it.
> 
> It's not immoral to feel sexual attraction - you cannot do anything about your biological impulses. It's immoral to act on them.
> 
> Also - there's a world of difference between finding someone attractive and *wanting* to sleep with them.


Now, I don't want to appear as if I'm " nit picking" or argumentative , but I just want us to have a clearer view of what each other is saying.

You quoted my statement in which I said that it was my feeling that sexual attraction to teenaged girls and boys was morally wrong.

Your first paragraph states that sexual attraction to any member of the opposite sex who's reached puberty is 
* normal*.
IMO, the term " puberty " refers to that developmental period in a child's life wen hormonal activity begin taking place in their bodies , causing the first signs of physical , noticeable , distinguishing changes which separate them from younger children.

Generally , I think that we can safely say that puberty starts somewhere around 10 years old , some cases , 8 & 9. I don't think that it is normal to be sexually attracted to an 8 , 9 10 , 11 ,12 , 13 or 14 year old ,even on a raw biological level.

So for clarity sake , I'm suggesting that the age group I'm referring too as being morally out of bounds for adults to be sexually attracted to ,is that age of 8 - 14, and 15 - 17 being within the region of " blurred lines."

Do you agree?

If you do, then I can say that I agree with the premise of your post. Lol, but then we have the issue of morality . 

My rational is that if biologically , men are programmed on a visceral level ,to be sexually attracted to the reproductive potential of a female , then the way hi brain assess this would be through some sort of biological imprint / template. I'm not talking about the cognitive aspect here.
The imprint I'm thinking of would be fullness / curvature of hips , and breasts , And maybe even other physical dimensions like height , weight and so on, on a potential female specimen.

I can see how on that level , males would be attracted to 
( fully) sexually developed females around ages 15 - 18 and upwards. But below that age and developmental stage is what puzzles me a bit , in the evolutionary / biological perspective.


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## The Grey One

Caribbean Man said:


> Generally , I think that we can safely say that puberty starts somewhere around 10 years old , some cases , 8 & 9. I don't think that it is normal to be sexually attracted to an 8 , 9 10 , 11 ,12 , 13 or 14 year old ,even on a raw biological level.


Typically between 9 and 13 is when it starts.



> So for clarity sake , I'm suggesting that the age group I'm referring too as being morally out of bounds for adults to be sexually attracted to ,is that age of 8 - 14, and 15 - 17 being within the region of " blurred lines."
> 
> Do you agree?


How can I? If a girl has gone through puberty and now carries all the biological triggers for a heterosexual male, then he's going to feel some degree of sexual attraction for her.



> If you do, then I can say that I agree with the premise of your post. Lol, but then we have the issue of morality .


My entire post was to explain that it's not immoral to feel attraction to a young girl. It's immoral to act on that attraction.



> My rational is that if biologically , men are programmed on a visceral level ,to be sexually attracted to the reproductive potential of a female , then the way hi brain assess this would be through some sort of biological imprint / template. I'm not talking about the cognitive aspect here.
> The imprint I'm thinking of would be fullness / curvature of hips , and breasts , And maybe even other physical dimensions like height , weight and so on, on a potential female specimen.


You missed a very important one - pheremones



> I can see how on that level , males would be attracted to
> ( fully) sexually developed females around ages 15 - 18 and upwards. But below that age and developmental stage is what puzzles me a bit , in the evolutionary / biological perspective.


If she can bear children (girls as young as 9 have got pregnant), then our biology will make us feel some degree of attraction for her.


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## Caribbean Man

The Grey One said:


> *1]* How can I? If a girl has gone through puberty and now carries all the biological triggers for a heterosexual male, then he's going to feel some degree of sexual attraction for her.
> 
> *2]*My entire post was to explain that it's not immoral to feel attraction to a young girl. It's immoral to act on that attraction.
> 
> *3]*You missed a very important one - pheremones
> 
> *4]*If she can bear children (girls as young as 9 have got pregnant), then our biology will make us feel some degree of attraction for her.


Since we agreed on your first point, the age puberty begins, I omitted that point and would start responding from your second point. I have placed them in point form and will respond likewise.

*1]* What I'm unclear about is what exactly are these [ physical?] " biological triggers ", and at what age do they appear? 
Why would a man not be sexually attracted to a 20 yr old woman with fully matured " biological triggers" but sexually attracted to a 13 yr old girl who's just recently began to develop breasts, and slight hip curves ?

*2]*I think it's immoral to be attracted to girls that age because morality is a part of a wider social construct that has to do with good and bad outcomes.
I think that we also have some level of control over what we see as attractive. Some men don't see women whom they consider as "overweight" as sexually attractive , even though they have breasts, lots of hips or the " biological triggers."

*3]*Pheremones are a controversial area. We are not sure that what applies in the animal and insect kingdom can be applied ,
" _carte blanche_ " to our species. If it was applicable in every sense ,then I image that the dating concept / construct would be useless. People would simply sniff out whom they wanted to have sex with and who was ready to have sex with them, and no thought given to facial appearances ,social status, race , genetic dispositions and so on.

*4]*Being biologically capable of having children is not necessarily a guaranteed trigger for sexual attraction IMO. Sexual attraction in human beings is a lot more complex than that. 
So the question really is, to what degree, if any at all, does this biological potential in a girl trigger attraction in a man, and is it significant enough to warrant his desire for younger flesh.
I guess I'm wondering which one informs the consciousness in the male brain,with respect to sexual attraction. Is it the cognitive or the limbic?
Maybe it's a complex set of interactions between both , and not just simply " biology."


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## over20

This topic gets me thinking of the show "Toddlers and Tiaras." If one has never seen it it is about little girls competing in pageants. They get full make-up, hair, nails and spray tans. Sometimes the costumes are real racy, For example they may where fish net stockings and tall black boots with booty shorts. It's so disgusting how these parents sexualize their daughters. Most of the time it's the mother who is dressing up the daughter but I have seen father's on the show as well. 

Which brings me to my point, how can any of the father's of the little ones allow their daughter to be made to look like a sex symbol. Father's, knowing how men struggle, should know better. It's as if the father is allowing men and boys to enjoy looking at their daughter in a sexual manner. A mother might not fully understand the magnitude of which the daughter looks sexy but a father surely should. These father's may even start looking at their daughter's in a sexual way. I feel the parent's should be held accountable if anything, God forbid, should happen to these little girls. It's teaching them very early on how to be sexy.


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## The Grey One

Caribbean Man said:


> Since we agreed on your first point, the age puberty begins, I omitted that point and would start responding from your second point. I have placed them in point form and will respond likewise.
> 
> *1]* What I'm unclear about is what exactly are these [ physical?] " biological triggers ", and at what age do they appear?
> Why would a man not be sexually attracted to a 20 yr old woman with fully matured " biological triggers" but sexually attracted to a 13 yr old girl who's just recently began to develop breasts, and slight hip curves ?


You've lost me here. When did I say that there's no attraction to a 20 year old woman?



> *2]*I think it's immoral to be attracted to girls that age because morality is a part of a wider social construct that has to do with good and bad outcomes.
> I think that we also have some level of control over what we see as attractive. Some men don't see women whom they consider as "overweight" as sexually attractive , even though they have breasts, lots of hips or the " biological triggers."


It can't be immoral to feel the attraction in the same way it can't be immoral to age. You have no control over your biology. You can control how you react to it.

Some men don't see young girls as attractive either. Differences in what is found attractive are meaningless to this conversation.



> *3]*Pheremones are a controversial area. We are not sure that what applies in the animal and insect kingdom can be applied ,
> " _carte blanche_ " to our species. If it was applicable in every sense ,then I image that the dating concept / construct would be useless. People would simply sniff out whom they wanted to have sex with and who was ready to have sex with them, and no thought given to facial appearances ,social status, race , genetic dispositions and so on.


Pheremones exist. It's a scientific fact. I never said it was the only consideration.



> *4]*Being biologically capable of having children is not necessarily a guaranteed trigger for sexual attraction IMO. Sexual attraction in human beings is a lot more complex than that.
> So the question really is, to what degree, if any at all, does this biological potential in a girl trigger attraction in a man, and is it significant enough to warrant his desire for younger flesh.
> I guess I'm wondering which one informs the consciousness in the male brain,with respect to sexual attraction. Is it the cognitive or the limbic?
> Maybe it's a complex set of interactions between both , and not just simply " biology."


I'm not sure you're thinking this through. I think you're trying to make a groundless assertion and then back it up by cases which are only occasionally true.


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## Caribbean Man

The Grey One said:


> It can't be immoral to feel the attraction in the same way it can't be immoral to age.
> You have no control over your biology. You can control how you react to it.


See, 
Here's the problem with that biology argument.

Hunger is biological and one's reaction to it can be controlled , to an extent, until that person dies.

Fatigue s also biological and one's response to it can be controlled , to a certain extent until the body goes into shock and they die.

Sexual Attraction and urges are not only biological, there's a huge psychosexual aspect to it.
That's why rape of adult women is not about biology / sexual urges but about power and control, huge psychosexual issues.
That is why the monogamous construct upon which civilized society is built has worked for thousands of years .

And how does the " biological " argument auger for men who have sex with under aged boys? Teen aged boys cannot bear children , do not have breasts and hips , so how come men are sexually attracted to them?
To " spread their seed?"
If biological urges was the main or only driver behind sex with minors, wouldn't that have ruled out little boys?

The fact that the biological argument is not even given consideration in a court of law is testimony that it cannot stand on it's own.

logically, if you can indefinitely control your reaction to your sexual 
[ biological ] urges, then sexual attraction isn't strictly biological.
Hence the morality argument.


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## not recognizable

" I think that we also have some level of control over what we see as attractive. "

Thank God!!!! Someone said it! And it's a male someone!
Humans are not certain species of animals that hump anything with...um...well you get the idea.


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## not recognizable

There are lots of problems with the biology argument, and it's based on way outdated information about the brain, and about gender. But it will always be used as the quintessential excuse "men are visual blah blah"...as if women aren't...and "wired to do this or that" which always winds up a justification.
I'm glad Caribbean Man has the energy to tackle all that. I don't.


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## Caribbean Man

not recognizable said:


> *There are lots of problems with the biology argument, and it's based on way outdated information about the brain, and about gender. But it will always be used as the quintessential excuse "men are visual blah blah"...as if women aren't...and "wired to do this or that" which always winds up a justification.*


:iagree:

See, I think it's dangerous to just say that we are slaves to our biology and that we act like animals when we have things like social constructs , legal constructs and social order.

It defies logic because if we lacked complex organizational and cognitive skills , then we wouldn't even have those constructs which govern our choices.

We created them.


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## GTdad

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> See, I think it's dangerous to just say that we are slaves to our biology and that we act like animals when we have things like social constructs , legal constructs and social order.
> 
> It defies logic because if we lacked complex organizational and cognitive skills , then we wouldn't even have those constructs which govern our choices.
> 
> We created them.


I'll admit to the biological aspects; our lizard brains are only really interested in f*cking, fighting, and sitting around a fire chewing Qat.

Some are slaves to their lizard brains. Our institutions are full of rapists, killers, and substance abusers. I have yet to see "biology" being used as a successful defence in a criminal proceeding. 

Most of us are able to rein in any urge we may have to kill our neighbor with a gravel rake, biology or no.


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## Caribbean Man

GTdad said:


> I'll admit to the biological aspects; our lizard brains are only really interested in f*cking, fighting, and sitting around a fire chewing Qat.
> 
> Some are slaves to their lizard brains. Our institutions are full of rapists, killers, and substance abusers. I have yet to see "biology" being used as a successful defence in a criminal proceeding.
> 
> Most of us are able to rein in any urge we may have to kill our neighbor with a gravel rake, biology or no.


:iagree:

That's why I think the real question is how much of this is actually biology and how much is cognitive.

I think it would make interesting research for social and cognitive scientist.

I read a book many years ago called " The Lolita urge" [ hence the title of this thread] by a researcher called Jasper Kossov.
He did research on convicted pedophiles in prison and ordinary men who admitted to being attracted and having sexual relationships with under aged girls.
It was interesting .

But I can't get my hand on a copy online and I cannot find the original paperback version


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## ASummersDay

Caribbean Man, I tend to agree with you as a whole on this topic. I fully understand what you mean about the sexual attraction being morally wrong now. The beast we feed is the one that will win. Thank you for posting this topic, however controversial it may be. It has definitely got me rethinking some aspects of the issue.


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## Caribbean Man

ASummersDay said:


> Caribbean Man, I tend to agree with you as a whole on this topic. I fully understand what you mean about the sexual attraction being morally wrong now. The beast we feed is the one that will win. Thank you for posting this topic, however controversial it may be. It has definitely got me rethinking some aspects of the issue.


Thank you for your comment, and glad that it has brought some more understanding.
I am still trying to fully understand it myself , that's why I started the thread in the first place.

Since I've started this thread, a few women have PM'ed me with some of their stories, and their personal views and experiences.
it is a controversial topic,one which some might feel deeply ashamed to talk about. 
But we must talk about it , because it affects all of us , if not directly, our moral sensibilities.

I don't think we can afford to take political sides on it either.


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## The Grey One

Caribbean Man said:


> See,
> Here's the problem with that biology argument.


You conflate 'feeling' the sexual attraction with acting on it. I've stated several times now that feeling the attraction is not immoral - acting on it is.

I don't see how stating that immoral acts are immoral implies that one of the feelings you were experiencing when performing those immoral acts is therefore also immoral.

Last, but not least, rape has nothing to do with physical attraction, so it doesn't even belong in this discussion.


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## The Grey One

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> See, I think it's dangerous to just say that we are slaves to our biology and that we act like animals when we have things like social constructs , legal constructs and social order.
> 
> It defies logic because if we lacked complex organizational and cognitive skills , then we wouldn't even have those constructs which govern our choices.
> 
> We created them.


You make no sense. I never made any assertions to this effect.

I simply stated that biology governs our base urges. I never said that we are slaves to these urges or that we must act on them. I simply stated that we have no control over whether or not we feel these urges - we can only control how we handle them.


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## Caribbean Man

The Grey One said:


> You conflate 'feeling' the sexual attraction with acting on it. I've stated several times now that feeling the attraction is not immoral - acting on it is.
> 
> I don't see how stating that immoral acts are immoral implies that one of the feelings you were experiencing when performing those immoral acts is therefore also immoral.
> 
> Last, but not least, rape has nothing to do with physical attraction, so it doesn't even belong in this discussion.


Ok
Let me break down your biology / attraction assumption into the simplest form. What I'm going to do is remove morality from the equation, and let's deal strictly with raw biological urges.

Have you ever been , at any time , been sexually attracted to your own mother?
If yes , why?
If no , why?

Do you think it is normal for a father to be sexually attracted to his own daughter ,at any given stage of her development ?
If yes , why?
If no , why ?


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## missthelove2013

When I was in my mid 20's, i was ALL about the 40 something women...LOVED them...went to bars specifically where there was an older crowd...wasnt about dating, I wanted hook ups or fwb's

NO that I am 45, I do find myself attracted to younger women, but 20 and younger is pushing it...usually its the college aged girls that I find myself looking twice at, but its not quite the lustful thoughts I used to have for 40 somethings when i was in my 20's...


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