# Is there hope?



## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

We've been married 14 years and have two kids.

Things have been rocky on the marriage front for the past few years. We've been to a couple of counselling sessions. I've been a willing partner and have accompanied her whenever she has asked me to. It was a mutual decision anyway. However, that hasn't really helped much. We do talk but have been sleeping in separate bedrooms for months now. Initially it was the consequence of an argument, then due to my loud snoring and now its just second nature. I did go through a surgery for a deviated septum but that didn't help much  - just fyi.

I don't have any qualms or ego in admitting that I've contributed to this. I've had anger issues - nothing physical but yes I do get loud when I'm trying to say something and get no response back. Of course, from my view point, all the outburst episodes I've had in the past have stemmed from some of my "buttons getting pressed" but shouting/ yelling is something I could have avoided. I can blame that on what I saw between my parents but that's an easy way out - so bottom line I'm guilty of being loud and harsh during my outbursts.

For the past several months I've quite successfully changed how I deal with my emotions. I've read a lot about anger management and have learned to engage with her in a much more constructive way. 

However I don't see any attempt on her part to re-engage with me. If I were to club together my ask of her it would be to acknowledge me as a friend, companion. I always find her reading, browsing, shopping online or talking to her friends and going out with them. I'm probably coming across as a needy person here but that's not the truth. I'm fine with her going with her friends - that's healthy anyway. I'm also perfectly fine with her spending her time doing what she likes. I'm just perplexed that there isn't 5-10% of time that she would want to spend with me. E.g couple of months back I came back home after a 3 night business trip, she didn't even get out of her bed to say hello. Is that normal or are my expectations out of whack? Is this relationship just a convenient arrangement where she wants a good room mate?


So,

a) Maybe I AM a needy person 

b) The hurt I've caused in the past is something that she doesn't want to get over

c) She doesn't want to be with me - period

If it's (C), which I hope it isn't, shouldn't she just leave me? I love my kids and don't want to subject them to this but keeping this relationship afloat only for them will take a toll eventually .. something that's already started. 

I've asked her directly (in a very calm manner) about how she'd like to proceed with our relationship as I really miss the good times we've had. But have heard nothing concrete other than a "let's talk later ..". 

Any bright ideas as to what I can do to break this cycle apart for persisting! More than anything else it's the impasse that's bothering me. Or is it time to wake up and smell the coffee!!


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I would say go consult a lawyer, get the lay of the land. Then get a local set of forms for divorce and fill them out. Pawn the kids off one evening, and sit down and initiate the talk again. If she hands you the same talk about it later bull**** (which it totally is, she's biding her time, detaching, waiting for a "better" offer. Has she said ILYBINILWY?), well then say later has already passed then and hand her the papers. Make it clear that you will not settle for the status quo. That if she won't work to resolve problems, you will, and you'll do it without her if need be.

You might pick up Divorce Busters, by Michelle Weiner Davis. Are you carrying more weight than you should? It's a factor in my snoring. If I'm under 195, I have no problem. If I go over, it gets progressively worse.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

ambi42 said:


> I'm just perplexed that there isn't 5-10% of time that she would want to spend with me. E.g couple of months back I came back home after a 3 night business trip, she didn't even get out of her bed to say hello. Is that normal or are my expectations out of whack?


No, it's not even remotely normal. 

So you've been sleeping apart for months, now, and don't even spend 5% of your time together. Right now, you don't have a marriage. You might be raising two kids together, but that's about it. 



> _a) Maybe I AM a needy person
> 
> b) The hurt I've caused in the past is something that she doesn't want to get over
> 
> ...


She probably should, but she's content right now because living with you is either a more comfortable financial arrangement, or it's convenient for raising the children. 



> _I love my kids and don't want to subject them to this but keeping this relationship afloat only for them will take a toll eventually .. something that's already started.
> _


I agree. My parents stayed together for me, and I wish they hadn't. 



> _I've asked her directly (in a very calm manner) about how she'd like to proceed with our relationship as I really miss the good times we've had. But have heard nothing concrete other than a "let's talk later ..". _


Then she owes you a time. Later when exactly? Get her to pin down a date and a time when she will talk to you about it. Don't let her constantly get away with vague statements. Otherwise, YOU set the date and time - the date and time when you are walking out the door.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Heads up.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ambi42 said:


> We've been married 14 years and have two kids.
> 
> Things have been rocky on the marriage front for the past few years. We've been to a couple of counselling sessions. I've been a willing partner and have accompanied her whenever she has asked me to. It was a mutual decision anyway. However, that hasn't really helped much. We do talk but have been sleeping in separate bedrooms for months now. Initially it was the consequence of an argument, then due to my loud snoring and now its just second nature. I did go through a surgery for a deviated septum but that didn't help much  - just fyi.


Separate bedrooms = de facto in-house separation to my mind. How often do you have sex? How often does she initiate? 
How overweight are you?



ambi42 said:


> I don't have any qualms or ego in admitting that I've contributed to this. I've had anger issues - nothing physical but yes I do get loud when I'm trying to say something and get no response back. Of course, from my view point, all the outburst episodes I've had in the past have stemmed from some of my "buttons getting pressed" but shouting/ yelling is something I could have avoided. I can blame that on what I saw between my parents but that's an easy way out - so bottom line I'm guilty of being loud and harsh during my outbursts.


The inability to keep your cool lowers your male sex rank. It makes you pretty much fundamentally undesirable.



ambi42 said:


> For the past several months I've quite successfully changed how I deal with my emotions. I've read a lot about anger management and have learned to engage with her in a much more constructive way.
> 
> However I don't see any attempt on her part to re-engage with me.


You have to be involved with her in some way for her to see the changes. She has created distance, so she doesn't see, and probably does not want to see, your improvements.



ambi42 said:


> If I were to club together my ask of her it would be to acknowledge me as a friend, companion.


Don't ask her anything. Don't discuss the relationship at all. Start telegraphing change by upping your sexual market value. Do women hit on you? I ask because women are much more interested in their man when they know other women want him.



ambi42 said:


> I always find her reading, browsing, shopping online or talking to her friends and going out with them.


What do you mean by "going out?' You mean like to the art museum on Saturday afternoon or out dancing in bars until 3AM?



ambi42 said:


> I'm probably coming across as a needy person here but that's not the truth. I'm fine with her going with her friends - that's healthy anyway.


It all depends.



ambi42 said:


> I'm also perfectly fine with her spending her time doing what she likes. I'm just perplexed that there isn't 5-10% of time that she would want to spend with me. E.g couple of months back I came back home after a 3 night business trip, she didn't even get out of her bed to say hello. Is that normal or are my expectations out of whack? Is this relationship just a convenient arrangement where she wants a good room mate?


Now you are getting warmer. She sees you as what is known as a "beta-provider." She has no sexual attraction to you, but you do pay the bills and you may be the father of her kids.




ambi42 said:


> So,
> 
> a) Maybe I AM a needy person
> 
> ...


Probably from her viewpoint, it's not yet time to leave. There's a strong probability that she's already interacting with other males. It may be the very reason she started distancing in the first place. You've already been asked if you've gotten the ILYBINILWY; so, have you?



ambi42 said:


> I've asked her directly (in a very calm manner) about how she'd like to proceed with our relationship as I really miss the good times we've had. But have heard nothing concrete other than a "let's talk later ..".


This is a delaying tactic, since she can't get a commitment or she wants to get her legal stuff together before the ambush filing. 



ambi42 said:


> Any bright ideas as to what I can do to break this cycle apart for persisting! More than anything else it's the impasse that's bothering me. Or is it time to wake up and smell the coffee!!


Where is she going out at night and who is she going with? How many of these girlfriends are divorced, single, or open?


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

It's difficult to say at this stage.

I would be careful not to hover or come across needy at this point...yet perhaps look into doing things that may rekindle the spark. I would perhaps consider secretly doing The Love Dare...see if she responds positively or just rejects your attempts to reconnect.

It is hard to say with the given info if she has given up on the marriage, but if spouses are moving on they usually start developing signs of contempt, argumentative, sabotage opportunities for intimacy.... Don't know if you are reading those sort of things.

It would also help if you did things to reignite the mystery of your persona...do things that you know would enhance her attraction for you...and don't come across needy for sex. Become the sexual magnet in the family yourself.


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## Love2326 (Oct 31, 2012)

In my experience, when one person wants out and you want to keep them, the path that will yield the highest chance that she will come back to you is the hardest thing to do: let her go. She needs to regain her composure after everything you two have been through. She needs to find herself again. Let her do it. The worst thing is to beg and plead. It will make you come across needy, overbearing, desperate and pathetic - all VERY unattractive things to anybody. 

I realize you're trying to save your family right now, but it sounds like your anger issues have done so much damage to the marriage, you could probably use the time to fix those issues. Use it wisely because you'll probably only get one chance to fix your marriage. 

I know this isn't the news you want to hear. In fact, I'm going through the same thing and letting my significant other go too. Sometimes people just need their space. 

PLUS, if she sees you taking care of yourself (i.e. fixing yourself), chances are, she'll be intrigued and will want to see what's going on. keep in mind, this is not an overnight thing. It may take months. If you're prepared for what may come, you'll be able to handle this better. Be prepared for no phone calls, possibly moving out (either of you), no texts, etc. Be prepared to be sad. Be prepared!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

ambi42 said:


> We've been married 14 years and have two kids.
> 
> Things have been rocky on the marriage front for the past few years. We've been to a couple of counselling sessions. I've been a willing partner and have accompanied her whenever she has asked me to. It was a mutual decision anyway. However, that hasn't really helped much. We do talk but have been sleeping in separate bedrooms for months now. Initially it was the consequence of an argument, then due to my loud snoring and now its just second nature. I did go through a surgery for a deviated septum but that didn't help much  - just fyi.
> 
> ...


Personally that would kill any attraction I had for a man. Angry outbursts show a complete lack of self control. Once may be acceptable but more than that and it would be hard to regain the attraction no matter what he did to get past this behaviour.

Complete deal breaker here.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think there is hope. You guys have a complete break down in communication (it seems).

How about this. Arrange for family to take the kids and meet with your wife for an hour or 2. 

Tell her exactly how you feel and measure her care level on each subject (take notes if you have to). Basically you want to get a sense of how much she cares, if any.

Make an action plan of things you want to discuss prior to meeting her.

Key is to keep it cool. No matter what happens, do NOT show/use anger AT ALL. If you sense it from yourself or your wife, come back to the table once you cool off. I would probably start off the meeting with asking her to just tell you when/if it happens as you want to make sure you guys have a mature/adult conversation. This will also go a long way to prove to her that you recognize your faults and are working on them (apologize for past if you have to as well).

When you are done with the meeting, sit down with yourself and process your thoughts/feelings and notes. Think about it a bit (make sure you are not angry etc, just your normal self).

I get a sense that your wife gave up on your marriage and might even be perusing other relationships. You need to find out if she is in it for kids or she really loves you and wants to stay in the relationship.

Based on her actions you described she no longer cares/loves you. I mean, what woman doesn't want to make sure her husband is satisfied (and other way around).

Tell her that you do not want to be in a marriage if there is no love/affection or companionship. All of which you are missing right now. 

Assuming she agrees, make a plan to correct it. If she doesn't, tell her you want a divorce.

If she is not interested when you tell her, start investigating where she goes/phone etc. Chances are she is already checked out of the marriage......

You can also straight up ask her if she is cheating. Watch her reply (if you sense anger.....that might tell you a whole lot). If she starts pulling "jealousy/insecurity" lines just tell her that she has been dis attached and you feel she is no longer interested in this relationship etc (so naturally you have your doubts).

I hope this is simply one of those "life got in the way" types of situations and all will work out for you guys. Sometimes our significant others need a reality check /someone to show them what's up.....before they realize.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> I would say go consult a lawyer, get the lay of the land. Then get a local set of forms for divorce and fill them out. Pawn the kids off one evening, and sit down and initiate the talk again. If she hands you the same talk about it later bull**** (which it totally is, she's biding her time, detaching, waiting for a "better" offer. Has she said ILYBINILWY?), well then say later has already passed then and hand her the papers. Make it clear that you will not settle for the status quo. That if she won't work to resolve problems, you will, and you'll do it without her if need be.
> 
> You might pick up Divorce Busters, by Michelle Weiner Davis. Are you carrying more weight than you should? It's a factor in my snoring. If I'm under 195, I have no problem. If I go over, it gets progressively worse.


Didn't know about ILYBINILWY till I came to this forum. Interesting and makes a lot of sense. Though she hasn't said it in as many words.

No I'm not overweight - go to the gym quite often and run a lot. That's one thing under control!

Will consider what you said about getting papers ready but I'm not sure if I'm ready for that yet. Great input though - appreciate it.


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

Theseus said:


> No, it's not even remotely normal.
> 
> So you've been sleeping apart for months, now, and don't even spend 5% of your time together. Right now, you don't have a marriage. You might be raising two kids together, but that's about it.
> 
> ...


She has given me a date. It's approximately a month from now. I've accepted that as I want to give this all I have. Taking my ego completely out of the equation right now .. but this would be it. I don't think I'll have the capacity to sustain whatever this is beyond that point. Ideally we either decide to actually "work" on our relationship or call it quits - but no more status quo. Thanks for your input.


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

FormerSelf said:


> It's difficult to say at this stage.
> 
> I would be careful not to hover or come across needy at this point...yet perhaps look into doing things that may rekindle the spark. I would perhaps consider secretly doing The Love Dare...see if she responds positively or just rejects your attempts to reconnect.
> 
> ...


I don't see any of the signs that you've listed but yes generally speaking the fuse is very short. She's told me on more than one occasion that maybe she wasn't meant for marriage. I find that extremely hurtful but part of me thinks that maybe she's being truthful .. confused :scratchhead:

She's told me quite often that she doesn't find the sex exciting. I've asked her whether we should try something different to reignite it but nothing much changed. Of course all that when we were still physical. That was a good 5-6 months ago.


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Separate bedrooms = de facto in-house separation to my mind. How often do you have sex? How often does she initiate?
> How overweight are you?
> 
> 
> ...



1. Yep, I've learn't the consequences of losing my cool. No excuses around that. Even though I've perceived her behavior as passive aggressive the shouting didn't help anyone. It's been quite some time since I've repeated that behavior and I intend to keep it that way.

2. I have some women friends but can't classify them as "hitting" on me. 

3. Going out as in "night out" with her girl friends. There're couple of her close friends who've recently moved out of abusive relationships. But I'd find it hard to believe that someone would club all males into one category based on experiences of a few. Does it impact her psyche .. probably.


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

Love2326 said:


> In my experience, when one person wants out and you want to keep them, the path that will yield the highest chance that she will come back to you is the hardest thing to do: let her go. She needs to regain her composure after everything you two have been through. She needs to find herself again. Let her do it. The worst thing is to beg and plead. It will make you come across needy, overbearing, desperate and pathetic - all VERY unattractive things to anybody.
> 
> I realize you're trying to save your family right now, but it sounds like your anger issues have done so much damage to the marriage, you could probably use the time to fix those issues. Use it wisely because you'll probably only get one chance to fix your marriage.
> 
> ...


I agree. I believe this is where I am and I am giving her all the space she needs. I thought I was doing the same before too but maybe subconsciously I wasn't - I don't know. Anyway, its been close to 4-5 months that we've been in this state of limbo. I have not demanded anything. She got laid off recently and I've been encouraging her as much as I can to take a break and pursue whatever she wants. Like I said earlier and giving this whatever it takes and trying my best not to expect anything in return. I say trying as it does leave me wanting and frustrated at times hence this forum .. which has been a great help so far!


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

Holland said:


> Personally that would kill any attraction I had for a man. Angry outbursts show a complete lack of self control. Once may be acceptable but more than that and it would be hard to regain the attraction no matter what he did to get past this behaviour.
> 
> Complete deal breaker here.


Hoping I can prove that wrong .. 

Can't undo what I've done but can certainly influence how I conduct myself going forward.


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## ambi42 (Jun 30, 2012)

DoF said:


> I think there is hope. You guys have a complete break down in communication (it seems).
> 
> How about this. Arrange for family to take the kids and meet with your wife for an hour or 2.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. I have had the exact same discussion with her twice. The first one, a couple of weeks back, where I clearly told her that I miss what had before. She acknowledged that she was not showing much comittment and needs more time to process where we are. And that she was too tired to talk. The second, more recently, where I told her that I wanted to start sleeping on the same bed again .. just sleeping! That was turned down quite rapidly primarily because I snore and also that she doesn't want me to feel rejected if she pushes me away if I want to hold her. I lost a little patience at that point and asked her when does she want to start working towards a resolution which is when I got "lets talk in a month .." response.

I will wait.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ambi42 said:


> We've been married 14 years and have two kids.
> 
> Things have been rocky on the marriage front for the past few years. We've been to a couple of counselling sessions. I've been a willing partner and have accompanied her whenever she has asked me to. It was a mutual decision anyway. However, that hasn't really helped much. We do talk but have been sleeping in separate bedrooms for months now. Initially it was the consequence of an argument, then *due to my loud snoring and now its just second nature. I did go through a surgery for a deviated septum but that didn't help much*  - just fyi.
> 
> ...


Have you had a sleep study done? You may have sleep apnea; if so, sleeping w/ a C-PAP or BiPAP would likely benefit you.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Let's talk in a month is bull****. What's going to change in a month? Is she poring over self help and relationship books? Taking steps to improve her mind and body? Focussing on some big project? 

Not likely. More like she is stalling you, and wallowing in her self pity. In a month, she'll want to stall you again. You are working on yourself, putting in real effort to change. You are solving your side of the riddle. But things aren't getting better, so guess what that means? She's a problem too, maybe? It hurts a bit to look in the mirror, maybe? The pain of the status quo does not currently outweigh the pain of self reflection and change, so she will stick with the status quo, thank you very much.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Let's talk in a month is bull****. What's going to change in a month? Is she poring over self help and relationship books? Taking steps to improve her mind and body? Focussing on some big project?
> 
> Not likely.* More like she is stalling you*, and wallowing in her self pity. * In a month, she'll want to stall you again*. You are working on yourself, putting in real effort to change. You are solving your side of the riddle. But things aren't getting better, so guess what that means? She's a problem too, maybe? It hurts a bit to look in the mirror, maybe? The pain of the status quo does not currently outweigh the pain of self reflection and change, so she will stick with the status quo, thank you very much.


She likes things the way they are. Why should she change?

How often does she go out? Are these women divorced, single, in a good marriage? Where do they go, what types of places? When does she get home? Is she drunk? How does she get home if she is?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ambi42 said:


> Didn't know about ILYBINILWY till I came to this forum. Interesting and makes a lot of sense. Though she hasn't said it in as many words.
> 
> No I'm not overweight - go to the gym quite often and run a lot. That's one thing under control!


Women typically have a positive limbic sexual autonomic response to a couple of visual clues. The first is the Golden Ratio. Your waist measurement needs to be 67% or less of your shoulder circumference. The second thing is visible 6 pack and/or inguinal ligament "V". This is rare in nature and hard to get, but it gives them the tingles. See photos below:










Unless you're in the Marine Corps or the NFL, running is an unnecessary waste of time. Switch to a natural bodybuilding program consisting of compound lifts: squat, deadlift, decline bench press, overhead press, pullover/pulldown, chins. 

Let me know if you don't understand what you should be doing. 



ambi42 said:


> Will consider what you said about getting papers ready but I'm not sure if I'm ready for that yet. Great input though - appreciate it.


If you want to stay married, get the papers ready and don't be too secretive. It builds attraction. Yeah, you read that right.



ambi42 said:


> She has given me a date. It's approximately a month from now. I've accepted that as I want to give this all I have.


Wrong move. You've allowed yourself to be in the relationship to the degree and duration that she dictates. You are reinforcing your unattractiveness by allowing her to be dominant. Sorry, it's not fairy tale PC, but we're dealing with the realities of the human female.



ambi42 said:


> Taking my ego completely out of the equation right now .. but this would be it. I don't think I'll have the capacity to sustain whatever this is beyond that point. Ideally we either decide to actually "work" on our relationship or call it quits - but no more status quo. Thanks for your input.


I'm glad you're finished with the status quo, but you don't sound ready to divorce. You may end up going straight to divorce once you find out what's she's up to on GNO. Either way, if you want to stay with her or not, you have to project that you are moving on already, without actually saying it.

Today, switch to a bodybuilding program and get a start on a new wardrobe appropriate to a guy 10 years younger and with 3X the salary. Trade in your car for a single man's ride. Alternatively, get a chopper or a hot rod. Change your hair and facial hair to something completely different. It doesn't matter if it's an improvement, or you like it. Just change it to the opposite of what it is now. You're making a statement with all the above and I guarantee you that no matter what or how she thinks things are going to play out, this will shake her to the roots. Don't come up with excuses, just do it.

As for ego, women are attracted to bad boys who exhibit the so-called Dark Triad Traits. You aren't that, but you can ape enough of it to get her attention.

Read this and figure out where you are on the Male Socio-Sexual Hierarchy.



ambi42 said:


> I don't see any of the signs that you've listed but yes generally speaking the fuse is very short. *She's told me on more than one occasion that maybe she wasn't meant for marriage.* I find that extremely hurtful but part of me thinks that maybe she's being truthful .. confused :scratchhead:


This means she has behaved inappropriately with other men. It's a veiled confession. Wayward wives do this a lot prior to actually getting caught. It's really a standard ploy.



ambi42 said:


> She's told me quite often that she doesn't find the sex exciting. I've asked her whether we should try something different to reignite it but nothing much changed. Of course all that when we were still physical. That was a good 5-6 months ago.


She doesn't like the sex with you, most likely because she's getting very fired up (at minimum) by rubbing against other guys on GNO or maybe she's interacting online. Or both.



ambi42 said:


> 1. Yep, I've learn't the consequences of losing my cool. No excuses around that. Even though I've perceived her behavior as passive aggressive the shouting didn't help anyone. It's been quite some time since I've repeated that behavior and I intend to keep it that way.


Never allow her to force you to break your frame as Mr. Cool. I have a bad feeling that you're really going to have a very hard time doing that as things progress.



ambi42 said:


> 2. I have some women friends but can't classify them as "hitting" on me.


With the right physique (see above), stance, and confident vibe (swagger like a Mongolian warlord), you should have women giving you the eye all the time.



ambi42 said:


> 3. Going out as in "night out" with her girl friends. There're couple of her close friends who've recently moved out of abusive relationships. But I'd find it hard to believe that someone would club all males into one category based on experiences of a few. Does it impact her psyche .. probably.


Think about it. Your wife is the wing woman for two single girls out to get action. Totally inappropriate and I would wager 90% of your problem. Misery loves company and these two are equating your former loud yelling with their getting smacked around. They feed this to your wife over alcohol, while point out guys for her to dance with. I could be wrong; maybe they're going to a late night church service. But you need to find out exactly where they go and who they hook up with.

I see she's been laid off, so you need to go into investigative mode. Put a VAR under the driver's seat of her car. Use heavy duty velcro to hold it up under the springs. You can find out a lot by listening in on what happens in her car. Put another one in the house where she tends to talk on the phone.

Is her cell phone locked down?



ambi42 said:


> I agree. I believe this is where I am and I am giving her all the space she needs. I thought I was doing the same before too but maybe subconsciously I wasn't - I don't know. Anyway, its been close to 4-5 months that we've been in this state of limbo. I have not demanded anything. She got laid off recently and I've been encouraging her as much as I can to take a break and pursue whatever she wants. Like I said earlier and giving this whatever it takes and trying my best not to expect anything in return. I say trying as it does leave me wanting and frustrated at times hence this forum .. which has been a great help so far!


Quit engaging with her except for kids and household crap. Be friendly, in control, never frown. Act as if you've forgotten all about the problems in your marriage.

And start going out 2X at night for every 1X she does. Take your new ride, dressed in your new clothes. This sounds crazy, but suddenly she'll be burning up to find out who you're seeing and her attraction will go up. See, your wife's friends are telling her what a loser you are and she believes it. Furthermore, she probably has fond memories of Alphas from before your time and is comparing you negatively to them. Wives believe that if they aren't attracted to their husband, no other woman will be. When they think other women are after your, your sexual market value suddenly goes through the roof.

If this doesn't work, no problem Girls are like buses and there will be another one along in five minutes. After making these changes, you'll be ready to get on that bus, if necessary.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

The Dark Triad (narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism)? Seriously? If you are aiming for a ONS or a short-term relationship with a “crazy woman” sure, go for it.

However if you are aiming for a LTR with a quality woman then ditch the personality disorders and save the Machiavellianism for your use in your career.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> The Dark Triad (narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism)? Seriously? If you are aiming for a ONS or a short-term relationship with a “crazy woman” sure, go for it.
> 
> However if you are aiming for a LTR with a quality woman then ditch the personality disorders and save the Machiavellianism for your use in your career.


Nope. You still have to project some attractive behaviors even in an LTR. Otherwise, you end up like OP; in limbo. There's a reason previously sane women start acting up.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> The Dark Triad (narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism)? Seriously? If you are aiming for a ONS or a short-term relationship with a “crazy woman” sure, go for it.
> 
> However if you are aiming for a LTR with a quality woman then ditch the personality disorders and save the Machiavellianism for your use in your career.


Then how do you reconsile that belief with all the "nice guys" on here who get sh!t on?

Its never 100% but MOST women go for the Alpha, Bad Boy, arrogant, self absorbed, cool guy, James Bond, Most Interesting man in the world, Biker, etc etc.

They dont go for nice. And by go for I mean get all tingly in their nethers.

They settle for nice. And that aint all tingly.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Nope. You still have to project some attractive behaviors even in an LTR. Otherwise, you end up like OP; in limbo. There's a reason previously sane women start acting up.


Read up on the reptilian brain it is quite incredible.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> You still have to project some attractive behaviors even in an LTR.


My point was that there is NOTHING attractive (in the long-term) about narcissists, psychopaths or Machiavellians. Unless you are a "crazy", of course.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> My point was that there is NOTHING attractive (in the long-term) about narcissists, psychopaths or Machiavellians. Unless you are a "crazy", of course.


Women in general tend to have higher levels of attraction to men to whom other women are already attracted. These men tend to have good physiques, dress well, have traditional masculinity, exude confidence, and have the respect and even admiration of other men, usually due to business or professional accomplishments. Dark Triads have a clear edge here. 

Now, if you're saying that women who respond positively to that list of characteristics are "crazy," that's a pretty big indictment of the female sex.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> My point was that there is NOTHING attractive (in the long-term) about narcissists, psychopaths or Machiavellians. Unless you are a "crazy", of course.


While those are extremes of behavior women are attracted ie get all excited down there by guys who are closer to that end of the bell curve than the other.

narcissists..... women go for the confident or even extremely arrogant guy. A humble guy? No

psychopaths....women go for the me me guy. Not the empathetic caring type

Machiavellian....the clever, even devious get it done type? yep. Honest moral guy? nope.

These might turn the woman off long term. And the humble eppathetic moral guy might appeal to her long term. But even long term she doesnt get excited down there much for that guy. Read this site for any amount of time at all and you'll realize that.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

ambi42 said:


> Thanks for your response. I have had the exact same discussion with her twice. The first one, a couple of weeks back, where I clearly told her that I miss what had before. She acknowledged that she was not showing much comittment and needs more time to process where we are. And that she was too tired to talk. The second, more recently, where I told her that I wanted to start sleeping on the same bed again .. just sleeping! That was turned down quite rapidly primarily because I snore and also that she doesn't want me to feel rejected if she pushes me away if I want to hold her. I lost a little patience at that point and asked her when does she want to start working towards a resolution which is when I got "lets talk in a month .." response.
> 
> I will wait.


 OK. You'll wait. For how much longer. Until it bothers you to the point that you let it all out and go back to your old ways and start shouting? That's what going to happen.

Look. Enough time has passed. What started out as a temporary sleeping arrangements has now become the norm and along with that since you don't sleep together any longer means that there's no intimacy either in the bedroom or any other room in the house.

Why? Because your waiting for her to get off her throne and pronounce that your fit to be her husband again.

Right now, she's treating you like a convenience for her life and your letting her.

There's no time like the present. Time for you to let her know that this nonsense has run it's course and all you want to know is that if she still wants to be your wife, then she better start acting like one real quick because she's now the one that's on the clock and remind her that she's used up a whole lot of the time. 

You want an answer and maybe you wont get the one you want but either way, you can't just sit and wait. 

She thinks by now that you'll wait for her until hell freezes over and in the process, she is living on your dime because she's a wife and acting like a single woman............on your dime. 

You better wake up real soon or you'll be the one kicking yourself for letting it go on for this long with no resolve.


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