# Does using porn make a man a lesser man?



## Caribbean Man

So I was on a thread where a poster said emphatically that
" _real men don't watch porn.._." 

What are your thoughts on this?

Do you think that viewing porn makes a man a bad man or lesser than a " real man?"

Does porn ruin relationships?
Of course it does, just like alcohol, gambling ,money and TAM.
But I'm sure everyone here doesn't mind having money, or a glass of wine after dinner, or a trip to Las Vegas and posting regularly on TAM.

The key however is moderation. Setting proper boundaries and keeping them, just like any other area in a relationship.

And I think that every person/ couple should have the right to decide whether or not something is good _for them_ or _their relationship _, and in what quantity,if any at all.

Thoughts?


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## Thunder7

Caribbean Man said:


> So I was on a thread where a poster said emphatically that
> " _real men don't watch porn.._."
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?
> 
> Do you think that viewing porn makes a man a bad man or lesser than a " real man?"
> 
> Does porn ruin relationships?
> Of course it does, just like alcohol, gambling ,money and TAM.
> But I'm sure everyone here doesn't mind having money, or a glass of wine after dinner, or a trip to Las Vegas and posting regularly on TAM.
> 
> The key however is moderation. Setting proper boundaries and keeping them, just like any other area in a relationship.
> 
> And I think that every person/ couple should have the right to decide whether or not something is good _for them_ or _their relationship _, and in what quantity,if any at all.
> 
> Thoughts?


:iagree:

Bingo. Nail, meet hammer. You can close the poll now, especially since I currently have the only vote.


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## sparkyjim

Thunder7 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Bingo. Nail, meet hammer. You can close the poll now, especially since I currently have the only vote.


Good idea.... let's move on... that's my *opinion*.


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## Thunder7

sparkyjim said:


> Good idea.... let's move on... that's my *opinion*.


I WAS kidding about closing the poll. But, I do think most will be in agreement with CM's initial explaination.


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## Aspydad

I just have to agree with your post. Just like any other addiction. How any women could be jealous of a video is absolutely beyond my comprehension. Maybe I am just strange because I could care less if my wife lusts after Brad Pitt - really just don't get it. Now if the dude showed up in my bedroom that would be another story.


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## Caribbean Man

Thunder7 said:


> I WAS kidding about closing the poll. But, I do think most will be in agreement with CM's initial explaination.


I don't think it's an unreasonable position.

But some people seem hell bent on dictating what other people do in the privacy of their own homes.

If a person isn't comfortable with porn is their relationship, then they shouldn't be forced or shamed into accepting it. The should make their own boundary and stick to it.

The same can be said if another person/ persons has no problem with it.


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## committed4ever

I don't agree that real men don't watch porn. (Real men DO eat sammiches though).

I also would not try to dictate what people do in the privacy of their own home. Other points about porn that I BELIEVE -- not stating this as fact:

1. Porn is demeaning to women.
2. Porn is causing men to expect certain sexual acts as a right in a relationship.
3. Some of the stuff that men want women to do and want to do to women as a result of watching porn leads to SOME women feeling degraded.
4. Porn causes men to have unrealistic expectations regarding sex
5. If men learn about sex from porn, they will miss the importance of the emotional connection of sex

My statements above do not apply to all men that watch porn, nor do they apply to all forms of porn. But I think the type of porn I'm speaking about is the more prevalent among teenagers and young men and can lead to them being TERRIBLE sexual partners.

I also believe that porn can cause men to be unable to perform in real life.

Lastly, I do recognize that the large majority of men will never feel the way that I and large numbers of women feel about porn being bad for relationships. And most men probably will never understand why some women feel that way. I'm just so thankful that my husband understands. And I do feel so sorry for the women who feel the way I feel but have husbands who don't understand. I just wish there was something that could be done to lead to some understanding between these couples.


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## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> I just wish there was something that could be done to lead to some understanding between these couples.


Well the fact is, there is.

It's called open dialogue.

But not many people are open to honest dialogue.

When one partner is being shamed for not wanting to accept porn or the other partner is being shamed for wanting to use porn , then how can they reach consensus?

The successful couples are those who are able to communicate respectfully , honestly and effectively about anything.

A strong dislike or like for something doesn't make a person wrong or right. When couples start thinking like that instead of what is best for each other's happiness and the relationship, then they would always e butting heads over minor issues.


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## sparkyjim

committed4ever said:


> I also would not try to dictate what people do in the privacy of their own home. Other points about porn that I BELIEVE -- not stating this as fact:
> 
> 1. Porn is demeaning to women.
> 2. Porn is causing men to expect certain sexual acts as a right in a relationship.
> 3. Some of the stuff that men want women to do and want to do to women as a result of watching porn leads to SOME women feeling degraded.
> 4. Porn causes men to have unrealistic expectations regarding sex
> 5. If men learn about sex from porn, they will miss the importance of the emotional connection of sex
> 
> My statements above do not apply to all men that watch porn, nor do they apply to all forms of porn. But I think the type of porn I'm speaking about is the more prevalent among teenagers and young men and can lead to them being TERRIBLE sexual partners.
> 
> I also believe that porn can cause men to be unable to perform in real life.
> 
> Lastly, I do recognize that the large majority of men will never feel the way that I and large numbers of women feel about porn being bad for relationships. And most men probably will never understand why some women feel that way. I'm just so thankful that my husband understands. And I do feel so sorry for the women who feel the way I feel but have husbands who don't understand. I just wish there was something that could be done to lead to some understanding between these couples.


Exactly.... and to share this information, or opinion, if you like, is not about shaming.

I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks that someone who shares this kind of information is trying to shame them, well, deal with it, because that is *your* reaction to what I, and committed4ever, are saying.

If I say that real men don't need porn, and you feel shamed by me saying that, then take your ball and go home, because *you aren't man enough* to play on this court...


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## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> Exactly.... and to share this information, or opinion, if you like, is not about shaming.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks that someone who shares this kind of information is trying to shame them, well, deal with it, because that is *your* reaction to what I, and committed4ever, are saying.
> 
> If I say that real men don't need porn, and you feel shamed by me saying that, then take your ball and go home, because *you aren't man enough* to play on this court...


I started this thread sir.
And I'll prefer if you refrain from attacking others or myself.

If you do it one more time I'll report your post to the moderators.


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## committed4ever

CM, 

I wonder if my husband was into porn how I would feel, especilly if we couldn't come to an agreement. I know it wouldn't be a dealbreaker but it would be hurtful. I would just have to live through it. 

Mr. & Mrs. Adams:

You two are just mutually frisky. No rules apply to you, so carry on! :rofl:


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## Caribbean Man

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *My husband and I have watched porn together since we first got married. I never thought the porn we watched was demeaning. The women and men in the movies chose to be there. We buy three or four new movies a year to take on vacation. We buy movies recommended for couples. I like movies that have a story line...our very favorite is 1001 erotic nights. The first copy was a VHS tape....we have since purchased the DVD.*
> 
> My husband has never asked me to do something I was not willing to try sexually. Our rules have always been no pain of any kind..physical or emotional. If we try something and either of us does not like it we tell each other.
> 
> Porn is a turn on for us....we find it stimulating. We never watch porn without each other....and we rarely make it through an entire movie without turning it off to have our own sex.
> 
> Communication is very important in any relationship. If I did not watch to watch porn...he would understand.


When my wife and I used it early in our relationship , it was also bought porn for couples DVD's with story lines.
It was exciting and new, and she preferred some girl - girl action, so I also got some of that type.

I have stated here publicly that I don't like the idea of anal sex, neither facials or any such things in mainstream porn. In fact , the DVD's we bought didn't have those type of acts, because my wife didn't like hem either. 

But us viewing porn together was just a phase of our relationship. maybe we might get back into it , but at the moment we're just enoying each other , without the porn.

But I can fully understand that some people would have no problem with it, and it can enrich their sexual relationship.


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## sparkyjim

my apologies everyone.. I PM'ed CM.. Hopefully we will get past this...


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## SoVeryLost

I personally do not find the majority of porn demeaning to women. Nor have I ever felt threatened by a woman featured in any of the porn I have watched either by myself or with a partner. 

During the last two years of my marriage my ex-husband developed ED and could not perform, even after trying every medication on the market. Previous to that we had enjoyed watching porn together on occassion. When he could no longer perform I utilized porn as a tool to satiate my needs as a living, breathing, healthy woman. I am now divorced and single and I continue to utilize porn at my discretion whenever I need a release. It does not consume my life or my thoughts - I'm simply a visual creature and find it rather erotic. I also find it to be a far more responsible means to an end than seeking out sexual partners during my interim of singledom. 

As others have pointed out, with anything in life there are people who will support it's use and those who will not. There is no right or wrong. If you enjoy it do not be ashamed of enjoying it. If you don't enjoy it don't watch it. 

I will point out that I find it to be a bit of a paradox in today's world though... Our society is very sexually charged in almost every aspect, but having real discussions about a very basic and biological function causes people to blush and gasp. 

Sex is a beautiful thing. Watching two people have sex is a beautiful thing. Pro-porn in this corner all the way.


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## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> CM,
> 
> I wonder if my husband was into porn how I would feel, especilly if we could come to an agreement. I know it wouldn't be a dealbreaker but it would be hurtful. I would just have to live through it.
> 
> Mr. & Mrs. Adams:
> 
> You two are just mutually frisky. No rules apply to you, so carry on! :rofl:


The thing is C4E,

There are many different genres of porn, and like Mrs JA said, there is porn that's made especially for couples and women.

So it's not like ordinary porn. I can't remember the titles of the ones we had, but it was like a an ordinary movie , but with fully nude lovemaking and fully nude sex scenes.

It wasn't like the " wham bam => facial " types.


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## richie33

Does porn hurt women....yes, obviously some more than others. On this site alone I would say there is equal amount of women who are ok with porn as there who absolutely hate it ( for very good reason by some of their stories). 
The ones whose husband neglect them for porn are 100% correct to feel angry but they look at the porn as the problem, when in fact it's the husbands that are the problem. 
You can put on the television almost any night of the week and see shows that are hurting women every day like the the Real Housewives, Bad Girls Club and shows of that nature that are on in the homes way more frequently than porn can ever be. 
I gave up porn cause it bothered my wife, 3 years now. I do not think I am more of a man now than I was then. But my marriage and my love of my wife is more important than a dirty movie.


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## EleGirl

I did not vote in the poll because the choices are too narrow.

Like so many things.. it depends.

If a man views porn in a manner that it does not interfere with his marriage and sex life, then there is no issue.

However, if he uses it to the point that he prefers jacking off to porn instead of spending time with his wife and having a healthy sex life with her... then there it's a problem and yes he's a lessor man as long as he continues this behavior.

There is a point between those two extremes where it starts to become an issue.

On the topic of why porn makes some women feel inferior....

I think that if the average woman spend as much time viewing/using porn as the average guy does... and I mean porn with real hard body guys.. I think that the average husband would get to feel like many women do about porn.


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## sparkyjim

I think that a real man doesn't need porn. That is my opinion.

I also think that a good husband will approach porn with sensitivity toward how his wife feels about it. That is also my opinion.

I get a little wrankled when men in relationships think that they have a "god given " right to porn, no matter how their spouse thinks. Or they go on the down low, and agree to the spouse's face but use porn in secret. Or when men claim that porn has "no effect."

I know there are happy couples who enjoy the use of porn together. I will wager that the husband is approaching this activity with sensitivity. Or maybe, like ScarletBegonias, the wife is the one being sensitive about how her husband feels about porn.

Either way, I am not really concerned about those couples who have no problem with porn. That's not my platform. That's not my experience.


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## Wolf1974

Porn can hurt marriages and relationships. Not all but some. Some can get addicted to it. Some are forced into prostitution and porn which of course is damaging. Don't think anyone would dispute those things can happen.

But to blanket statement that it's wrong across the board is silly and closed minded. I mean some therapist use porn to illustrate arousal in relationships as therapy. I have used porn in and out of relationships. If I ever met a woman who was 100% me or it then I would make my decision at that time if I wanted to continue. But that would be my choice. For those in relationships without sex and use porn to get by I have no issue with that. Do what you have to do.

Finally just because Sparky thinks only real men don't watch porn doesn't make it so. And would be insulting if not for how ridiculous is sounds. You don't establish manhood by looking at naked women or not.


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## EleGirl

sparkyjim said:


> I think that a real man doesn't need porn. That is my opinion.
> 
> I also think that a good husband will approach porn with sensitivity toward how his wife feels about it. That is also my opinion.
> 
> I get a little wrankled when men in relationships think that they have a "god given " right to porn, no matter how their spouse thinks. Or they go on the down low, and agree to the spouse's face but use porn in secret. Or when men claim that porn has "no effect."
> 
> I know there are happy couples who enjoy the use of porn together. I will wager that the husband is approaching this activity with sensitivity. Or maybe, like ScarletBegonias, the wife is the one being sensitive about how her husband feels about porn.
> 
> Either way, I am not really concerned about those couples who have no problem with porn. That's not my platform. That's not my experience.


Your post here brings up a very important point. This is something that a couple needs to discuss honestly prior to marriage.

If one of them has a strong belief against porn and the other feels strongly that they are going to use porn all they want (or whatever combination there is between them) it has to be shared. This topic alone can be a deal breaker for marriages. Yet it's often not even brought up until after the marriage.


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## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> I did not vote in the poll because the choices are too narrow.
> 
> Like so many things.. it depends.
> 
> If a man views porn in a manner that it does not interfere with his marriage and sex life, then there is no issue.
> 
> However, if he uses it to the point that he prefers jacking off to porn instead of spending time with his wife and having a healthy sex life with her... then there it's a problem and yes he's a lessor man as long as he continues this behavior.
> 
> There is a point between those two extremes where it starts to become an issue.
> 
> On the topic of why porn makes some women feel inferior....
> 
> *I think that if the average woman spend as much time viewing/using porn as the average guy does... and I mean porn with real hard body guys.. I think that the average husband would get to feel like many women do about porn*.


:iagree:

And that's another angle I wanted to explore.
The real issue behind lots of women hating porn is how it is presented and insecurity.
I think if discussed honestly, and openly a compromise can be reached.
If a man's wife feels insecure about porn, then he has no right telling her to get over it.
She doesn't like it, he understands and they form a mutually accepted solution that suits them.


If she feels strongly enough on moral grounds or whatever, then it's a dealbreaker _for her._

ut if she feels he is a good husband , takes care of her emotional needs as well as sexual, and she is open to it, maybe both of them can use it together.
That too, is a workable boundary.


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## committed4ever

Caribbean Man said:


> The thing is committed,
> 
> There are many different genres of porn, and like Mrs JA said, there is porn that's made especially for couples and women.
> 
> So it's not like ordinary porn. I can't remember the titles of the ones we had, but it was like a an ordinary movie , but with fully nude lovemaking and fully nude sex scenes.
> 
> It wasn't like the " wham bam => facial " types.


I know that there are different levels of it and some are more tastefully done than others. I'm excluding couples who enjoy it together from my thoughts on porn. I can tell that JA and JA have mutual agreement and I don't see anything wrong with that at all. I'm referring to instances where some men and women may be watching apart from their partner. Sometimes even the partner doesn't mind, but has a problem with the other watching it alone, neglecting them for porn, or bringing some of the acts into the bedroom that the other just does not enjoy and/or find degrading. We have all seen posts, mostly from women, that start off "my husband watches porn, which I really don't mind, BUT ..."

I know my language sounds like I think I am the keeper of the gate of who meets my approval for porn use and who doesn't, LOL! But I'm really just trying to express my own personal views, and I totally recognze that most people don't feel like I do about it. I understand that and I hope I don't come across as trying to shame anyone. But maybe someone will think twice if they are hurting their partner in this area and will try to understand where their partner is coming from instead of insisting that their partner shouldn't feel the way that they feel.

Getting sleepy now and its seeming like my writing is one long run-on sentence so I better log off now.


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## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> I know that there are different levels of it and some are more tastefully done than others. I'm excluding couples who enjoy it together from my thoughts on porn. I can tell that JA and JA have mutual agreement and I don't see anything wrong with that at all. I'm referring to instances where some men and women may be watching apart from their partner. Sometimes even the partner doesn't mind, but has a problem with the other watching it alone, neglecting them for porn, or bringing some of the acts into the bedroom that the other just does not enjoy and/or find degrading. We have all seen posts, mostly from women, that start off "my husband watches porn, which I really don't mind, BUT ..."
> 
> I know my language sounds like I think I am the keeper of the gate of who meets my approval for porn use and who doesn't, LOL! But I'm really just trying to express my own personal views, and I totally recognze that most people don't feel like I do about it. I understand that and I hope I don't come across as trying to shame anyone. But maybe someone will think twice if they are hurting their partner in this area and will try to understand where their partner is coming from instead of insisting that their partner shouldn't feel the way that they feel.
> 
> Getting sleepy now and its seeming like my writing is one long run-on sentence so I better log off now.


I understand what you're saying, and I agree.

My personal belief is that married couples who allow it in their marriage should only view it together.
And even before it is bought into the bedroom, they should discuss their likes and dislikes, because it's supposed to ba an aide to their sexual pleasure not a turn off.

However, that;s just my personal belief.

A husband sitting behind a computer for five hours etc , jacking off t pron is clearly an excess and an abuse.
But I will not and cannot lump all people who use porn in his class.
He's addicted.
That's why I vehemently disagree that one can judge a man character by whether or not he uses porn.

Humans beings aren't that simple.

Have a great night!


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## sparkyjim

Wolf1974 said:


> Porn
> 
> Finally just because Sparky thinks only real men don't watch porn doesn't make it so. And would be insulting if not for how ridiculous is sounds.


But aren't you trying to "shame" me into not expressing my opinion...? 


I say that tongue in cheek, because I have dealt with shame, and my feelings are not easily hurt by someone's opinion.

I think that in almost every context that I have posted I have referred to men using porn to the detriment of themselves or their partners. A real man won't do that, or if he makes a mistake and does he sees for himself how it was a negative influence on him and his real sex life, and he makes amends.


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## SoVeryLost

This doesn't affect me presently since I am single, but the discussion raises an important question that I would be interested in hearing responses to for future reference.

If I find myself in a relationship and my partner has expressed that it makes him feel uncomfortable to watch porn, I would have no problem agreeing to never watching porn either with him or in his presence. That is a boundary I could and would certainly respect.

If that same partner told me it made him uncomfortable knowing I watch porn by myself and requested I not do that...I would take issue with that. 

In this example, let's assume I'm meeting his emotional and sexual needs.

In full candor (my apologies if it's TMI), sometimes during the workday I find that I have an urge for a release. I'll drive somewhere secluded over the lunch hour, pull out my phone, and bring myself to pleasure. I'd say I do this 2-3x a month at minimum. 

If my partner told me he wasn't comfortable with me doing that, it's not that porn would take precedence over my relationship, but at what point are we allowed to not just identify ourselves as half of a couple, but instead maintain some autonomy? I may love, cherish, and respect my partner, but I am still an individual with individual needs that my partner cannot always satisfy. I enjoy that time to myself. It gives me a rush. I did this even during my marriage when my ex-husband was sexually fully functional. It's not that he wasn't satisfying me and I needed more. It was an activity I enjoyed doing during my own individual private time.

Would that bother some people? If so, I'm legitimately curious as to why.


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## SoVeryLost

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have always made myself available to my husband...ALWAYS...I have never told him no...in 42 years. If he jacks off looking at porn...I am insulted. All he had to do was ask me...I would have complied. If he jacks off to porn...he took that away from me.
> 
> Now if he is traveling...and I am not available...I understand. But if it is a matter of him being home and I am gone for a couple of hours..he could wait.
> 
> We have sex everyday...RELEASE will happen..he does not need to take matters in hand.


I understand what you are saying, and I respect your viewpoint.

I guess my question is...what if it's not about the end result? What if it's not a matter of a simple release, but what if, now and again, even if you are available or he knows you'll be home in a few hours... What if he just wants to masturbate during his private time because it's something he enjoys? I'm just stating this as a hypothetical. It wouldn't be a slight against you, and it wouldn't be that you aren't pleasuring him. But what if he misses the experience on his own once in a while? Would it bother you if he did this with the use of porn, or would it bother you independent of using porn? Does masturbation in general on his part not sit well with you?


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## Wolf1974

sparkyjim said:


> But aren't you trying to "shame" me into not expressing my opinion...?
> 
> 
> I say that tongue in cheek, because I have dealt with shame, and my feelings are not easily hurt by someone's opinion.
> 
> I think that in almost every context that I have posted I have referred to men using porn to the detriment of themselves or their partners. A real man won't do that, or if he makes a mistake and does he sees for himself how it was a negative influence on him and his real sex life, and he makes amends.


Nope you are entitled to your opinion. But I won't say things like you're not a real man to not believe what I believe. Cause real men have no need to do that


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## SoVeryLost

Mrs. John Adams said:


> simply..yes it would piss me off royally
> I don't masturbate without him..he owes me the same courtesy
> 
> If I was not interested in sex...if I did not meet his needs...I would understand.
> 
> To me..looking at porn and jacking off....KNOWING it would piss me off...is cheating.
> 
> I am not saying that I am right....I may very well be wrong...but it is how i feel...and I cannot help how i feel.
> 
> If he enjoys jacking off...then let me watch...don't do it behind my back


I can't say I understand, but thank you for sharing. It's good to read other people's viewpoints. Gives me something to ponder over at the very least.


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## GusPolinski

Sorry, but I feel the need to say something here...

Mr. Adams, you're one damn lucky man.


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## jaharthur

I think a real man shares my opinions.


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## EleGirl

SoVeryLost said:


> This doesn't affect me presently since I am single, but the discussion raises an important question that I would be interested in hearing responses to for future reference.
> 
> If I find myself in a relationship and my partner has expressed that it makes him feel uncomfortable to watch porn, I would have no problem agreeing to never watching porn either with him or in his presence. That is a boundary I could and would certainly respect.
> 
> If that same partner told me it made him uncomfortable knowing I watch porn by myself and requested I not do that...I would take issue with that.
> 
> In this example, let's assume I'm meeting his emotional and sexual needs.
> 
> In full candor (my apologies if it's TMI), sometimes during the workday I find that I have an urge for a release. I'll drive somewhere secluded over the lunch hour, pull out my phone, and bring myself to pleasure. I'd say I do this 2-3x a month at minimum.
> 
> If my partner told me he wasn't comfortable with me doing that, it's not that porn would take precedence over my relationship, but at what point are we allowed to not just identify ourselves as half of a couple, but instead maintain some autonomy? I may love, cherish, and respect my partner, but I am still an individual with individual needs that my partner cannot always satisfy. I enjoy that time to myself. It gives me a rush. I did this even during my marriage when my ex-husband was sexually fully functional. It's not that he wasn't satisfying me and I needed more. It was an activity I enjoyed doing during my own individual private time.
> 
> Would that bother some people? If so, I'm legitimately curious as to why.


The point is that this is something that you and your partner talk about. If the two of you come to an agreement on this then all is good. If you cannot then it's probably best to not be in a relationship with a person who would not agree with you watching porn on your own.


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## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> But *I'm sure everyone here doesn't mind having money, or a glass of wine after dinner, or a trip to Las Vegas and posting regularly on TAM.*
> 
> The key however is moderation. Setting proper boundaries and keeping them, just like any other area in a relationship.
> 
> And I think that every person/ couple should have the right to decide whether or not something is good _for them_ or _their relationship _, and in what quantity,if any at all.
> 
> Thoughts?


Money: If gained by earning, yes. But I don't gamble, by choice, because my _opinion_ is that it is not an honest living. My opinion, not anyone else's, and I am free to state my opinion, even if it doesn't coincide with someone else's.

Glass of wine after dinner: Again, nope. I don't drink alcohol of any kind. At all.So, no, I don't enjoy a glass of ine after dinner, nor before, nor during. 

Trip to Vegas: No thanks. I have no desire to go there. Haven't lost anything there, have no intention of doing so.

Regularly posting on TAM: Define regularly? Daily? Weekly? I think, when I first joined, I was "regularly" posting. Now? I'd be in the category of "rarely" I can go days, even weeks, without coming here... But I guess that would be moderation, too. Still, I can walk away, if I so choose.

As for the rest, we absolutely do have the right to choose for ourselves and our relationships. The thing is, I can believe that someone who uses porn isn't a "real man" or a "real woman", and you can believe that my husband and I are prudish. We don't have to agree, but there is nothing wrong with voicing our _opinions_, whether right or wrong. Now, for my own relationship, I would view a man who uses porn to be less of a man. You don't have to agree with me. It doesn't mean I am wrong about my POV, for myself.

So, _for my own relationship_: someone who gambles AT ALL, drinks alcohol AT ALL, smokes AT ALL (whether tobacco or marijuana), views porn AT ALL, etc. would not be right for me to be in a relationship with. Does that mean I couldn't associate with someone who does/uses any of these things? Not at all. It means I could never be in a relationship with someone who does these things.


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## Fenix

richie33 said:


> Does porn hurt women....yes, obviously some more than others. On this site alone I would say there is equal amount of women who are ok with porn as there who absolutely hate it ( for very good reason by some of their stories).
> The ones whose husband neglect them for porn are 100% correct to feel angry but they look at the porn as the problem, when in fact it's the husbands that are the problem.
> You can put on the television almost any night of the week and see shows that are hurting women every day like the the Real Housewives, Bad Girls Club and shows of that nature that are on in the homes way more frequently than porn can ever be.
> I gave up porn cause it bothered my wife, 3 years now. I do not think I am more of a man now than I was then. But my marriage and my love of my wife is more important than a dirty movie.


Sure you are. You gave up something out of respect for your wife's feelings. That says real man all the way.


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## Philat

committed4ever said:


> 1. Porn is demeaning to women.
> 2.Porn is causing men to expect certain sexual acts as a right in a relationship.
> 3. Some of the stuff that men want women to do and want to do to women as a result of watching porn leads to SOME women feeling degraded.
> 4. Porn causes men to have unrealistic expectations regarding sex
> 5. If men learn about sex from porn, they will miss the importance of the emotional connection of sex


:iagree: mostly. If these points apply in a relationship, then porn is like alcoholism or a gambling addiction. But it doesn't have to be.

If a man uses porn on occasion as a form of "mental Viagra" prior to sex with his partner, without any porn-fueled specific expectations, then NP as far as I can see.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I don't particularly care who watches porn, though I do think spouses should be sensitive to each other, so I don't like the attitude of some that they're entitled to porn and if you as their spouse don't like it that's your problem. And I have seen this attitude on the board.

Heck, I have a good friend that runs a porn site and she'd be on welfare if not for it and I support her not being on welfare.

I do agree with sparkyjim that's it's damaging because it introduces an external element that continually ups the ante in the bedroom to places it's very difficult for the average woman to go. 

We do not watch porn together, and have a healthy sex life. Have I seen it? Sure, but not often. Does my hb watch it? I honestly don't know and don't care because i'm happy with our sex life and connection. If he asked me to watch it with him I might, but it would depend on what he wanted to watch. 

I feel that it's damaging in ways people don't realize; men more because it's usually geared toward men. Sure you can find couples porn but you have to seek that out; run of the mill selfish man degrades woman while she pretends to like it is much more common. That I think it's damaging is my opinion, which like everyone else i'm entitled to have. Frankly CA I find it pretty nervy that you would rail about how you are entitled to your opinion (which you are) and then demand BS studies and statistics to support mine while making snide remarks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't particularly care who watches porn, though I do think spouses should be sensitive to each other, so I don't like the attitude of some that they're entitled to porn and if you as their spouse don't like it that's your problem. And I have seen this attitude on the board.
> 
> Heck, I have a good friend that runs a porn site and she'd be on welfare if not for it and I support her not being on welfare.
> 
> *I do agree with sparkyjim that's it's damaging because it introduces an external element that continually ups the ante in the bedroom to places it's very difficult for the average woman to go. *
> 
> We do not watch porn together, and have a healthy sex life. Have I seen it? Sure, but not often. Does my hb watch it? I honestly don't know and don't care because i'm happy with our sex life and connection. If he asked me to watch it with him I might, but it would depend on what he wanted to watch.
> 
> I feel that it's damaging in ways people don't realize; men more because it's usually geared toward men. Sure you can find couples porn but you have to seek that out; run of the mill selfish man degrades woman while she pretends to like it is much more common. That I think it's damaging is my opinion, which like everyone else i'm entitled to have. Frankly CA I find it pretty nervy that you would rail about how you are entitled to your opinion (which you are) and then demand BS studies and statistics to support mine while making snide remarks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regarding the bolded section above, I think that's a generalization that may be true for some porn users but it I don't think it's true for everyone. 

I'm perfectly capable of understanding that there are things in the porn world that my wife doesn't want to do, so they are not part of our bedroom repertoire. I know where her boundaries are and I don't push her on them.

I agree that for some couples this is not the case, but I think how porn affects a couple should be considered on a case-by-case basis rather than by painting with a broad brush.


----------



## richie33

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't particularly care who watches porn, though I do think spouses should be sensitive to each other, so I don't like the attitude of some that they're entitled to porn and if you as their spouse don't like it that's your problem. And I have seen this attitude on the board.
> 
> Heck, I have a good friend that runs a porn site and she'd be on welfare if not for it and I support her not being on welfare.
> 
> I do agree with sparkyjim that's it's damaging because it introduces an external element that continually ups the ante in the bedroom to places it's very difficult for the average woman to go.
> 
> We do not watch porn together, and have a healthy sex life. Have I seen it? Sure, but not often. Does my hb watch it? I honestly don't know and don't care because i'm happy with our sex life and connection. If he asked me to watch it with him I might, but it would depend on what he wanted to watch.
> 
> I feel that it's damaging in ways people don't realize; men more because it's usually geared toward men. Sure you can find couples porn but you have to seek that out; run of the mill selfish man degrades woman while she pretends to like it is much more common. That I think it's damaging is my opinion, which like everyone else i'm entitled to have. Frankly CA I find it pretty nervy that you would rail about how you are entitled to your opinion (which you are) and then demand BS studies and statistics to support mine while making snide remarks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are good friends with someone who job is to continue to degrade women? Do you share your opinion with him/her and how does that go?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Regarding the bolded section above, I think that's a generalization that may be true for some porn users but it I don't think it's true for everyone.
> 
> I'm perfectly capable of understanding that there are things in the porn world that my wife doesn't want to do, so they are not part of our bedroom repertoire. I know where her boundaries are and I don't push her on them.
> 
> *I agree that for some couples this is not the case, but I think how porn affects a couple should be considered on a case-by-case basis rather than by painting with a broad brush*.


:iagree:

That's all that I'm trying to say.

The first time I ever saw a porn vid was by accident I discovered it among some VCR movies at my favorite aunt's home. She was married to a man who in my opinion was a perfect husband.

I was just 13 yrs old and it didn't make me addicted or anything.
The next porno vid I looked at after that was probably when I was around 19 0r 20 yrs old.

My aunt and her husband were the perfect couple. I've never seen them fight and I actually lived with them for sometime.
They remained married until she got diagnosed with cancer and deteriorated rapidly and died.

That was the first and only time I ever saw her husband cry.

It would be absurd to even think that porn affected their relationship negatively.

I also know of other relationships which went off the rails , crashed and burned, because of porn abuse.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Regarding the bolded section above, I think that's a generalization that may be true for some porn users but it I don't think it's true for everyone.
> 
> I'm perfectly capable of understanding that there are things in the porn world that my wife doesn't want to do, so they are not part of our bedroom repertoire. I know where her boundaries are and I don't push her on them.
> 
> I agree that for some couples this is not the case, but I think how porn affects a couple should be considered on a case-by-case basis rather than by painting with a broad brush.


Well since I don't advocate censoring porn the decision is yours and is between you and your wife. But now I have to ask you if even though you respect your wife's boundaries (kudos) you don't think that porn plants the seeds and raises the bar? So you know she won't do it but it's still in the back of your mind that you want it? I think just that could be damaging.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

richie33 said:


> You are good friends with someone who job is to continue to degrade women? Do you share your opinion with him/her and how does that go?



I respect her right to make her own decisions and all of the women on her site volunteer. Doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to watch it. Plus i'm not married to her so why would I care? I think cigarettes are disgusting and kill people and wouldn't be married to someone that smokes, but i'm still friends with smokers and people that work in the tobacco industry. Nice try though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

committed4ever said:


> 1. Porn is demeaning to women.


What about men? They are in porn too.



> _2. Porn is causing men to expect certain sexual acts as a right in a relationship.
> 3. Some of the stuff that men want women to do and want to do to women as a result of watching porn leads to SOME women feeling degraded.
> 4. Porn causes men to have unrealistic expectations regarding sex_


I don't see these as "unrealistic" (except maybe the fake breasts in porn) or necessarily a bad thing. 

This reminds me of the vintage song, "How 'Ya Gonna Keep 'Em Down on the Farm? (After They've Seen Paree)?" It's about soldiers returning from WWI - the question is, how will they be satisfied with farm life when they've seen exciting big cities like Paris? 

I don't think it's a good idea to try to avoid being exposed to certain aspects of sex life just so your partner will never ask you do to them. Porn certainly helped my wife open up and try new things. She grew up in Korea, and before me, she had been so sheltered *she had never seen a naked man before not even in a photo, NOT EVEN IN A MEDICAL BOOK!! *(and she grew up with two brothers too! - I don't see how that is possible, but she insists it is true).


----------



## Theseus

Maricha75 said:


> So, _for my own relationship_: someone who gambles AT ALL, drinks alcohol AT ALL, smokes AT ALL (whether tobacco or marijuana), views porn AT ALL, etc. would not be right for me to be in a relationship with.


Wow!! Maricha - being married to you would be like being married to one of the nuns I knew back in Catholic school! :rofl:

I'm glad that works for you and your husband, but wow... I would assume you were Amish, but then you couldn't use the Internet!


----------



## richie33

lifeistooshort said:


> I respect her right to make her own decisions and all of the women on her site volunteer. Doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to watch it. Plus i'm not married to her so why would I care? I think cigarettes are disgusting and kill people and wouldn't be married to someone that smokes, but i'm still friends with smokers and people that work in the tobacco industry. Nice try though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yet you don't know if your own husband watches porn.
I am anti drug....I would not be friends with a drug dealer. 
You also call out people for being "snarky" but yet you are one of the biggest offenders of this on this site.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I think what Sparky was actually saying was that a 'real man' wouldn't put porn above his relationship. That if it hurt his wife, or could hurt his sex life, his sex drive and ability to be a good in tune lover, then a decent person/ man on hearing and seeing all the information on how harmful it is -in conjunction with their wife having strong feelings about it, would probably think twice before using it. 

My feelings are that I value in a man the ability to put our relationship first. I also find it very attractive when a man has empathy, and goes against the norm/ crowd to treat women with respect. 

I personally can't reconcile how women are mostly treated on mainstream porn with respecting women. 

That and there are things I've posted by homeland security and the FBI that say that the sex and porn industry use sex traffic victims. If a man knew this and willingly turned a blind eye to it then yes it would make me think less of him. 

There is evidence that women and girls in porn are usually poorly educated, from low socioeconomic backgrounds with few life choices. So if knowing this he still chose to view porn, I would think less of him, because I don't like it when people take advantage of those that have the least, or of their naivety. 

I have read lots of studies that show that those who watch main stream porn are more likely to be desensitised to and excuse violence against women, and are more likely to be rape apologists. And there is a lot of evidence that it changes the way we view each other and what turns us on. If knowing this, he still wanted to watch porn. Yes I'd think less of him. 

I could go on. It's not just one aspect that makes porn a deal breaker for me, but it's a collective of things I find repulsive, unattractive and inhumane. 

I desire a mate who is passionate about social justice and cares about people, even when it doesn't benefit him personally or is even inconvenient to do so. That's what *I* call a real man.

I also didn't vote in the poll, it was too limited.


----------



## sparkyjim

*LittleDeer* said:


> I think what Sparky was actually saying was that a 'real man' wouldn't put porn above his relationship. That if it hurt his wife, or could hurt his sex life, his sex drive and ability to be a good in tune lover, then a decent person/ man on hearing and seeing all the information on how harmful it is -in conjunction with their wife having strong feelings about it, would probably think twice before using it.
> 
> My feelings are that I value in a man the ability to put our relationship first. I also find it very attractive when a man has empathy, and goes against the norm/ crowd to treat women with respect.



I can certainly get on board with what you are saying. A man who takes good care of his wife is a better man, in my opinion...


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

lifeistooshort said:


> Well since I don't advocate censoring porn the decision is yours and is between you and your wife. But now I have to ask you if even though you respect your wife's boundaries (kudos) you don't think that porn plants the seeds and raises the bar? So you know she won't do it but it's still in the back of your mind that you want it? I think just that could be damaging.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a valid question, but I don't think it's damaging - and I can only speak for myself. I think most men (and women) can differentiate between fantasy and reality in the bedroom relative to porn, but just having seen things in a video doesn't automatically make me want to do that with my wife. 

Again, I know that's not always the case with other couples, but i can only speak from my experience.


----------



## sparkyjim

Theseus said:


> What about men? They are in porn too.


The percentage of porn that is about men being abused by women is decidedly small, and the primary consumers of such porn is men. That's their kink and they are welcome to it. It's not leading to a problem with men coming home from work to find their wives in Domme boots and cracking a whip.

You can obfuscate all you want but it isn't confusing anyone...


And your wife needed sexual education... not necessarily porn, so that doesn't apply either.


----------



## Maricha75

Theseus said:


> Wow!! Maricha - being married to you would be like being married to one of the nuns I knew back in Catholic school! :rofl:
> 
> I'm glad that works for you and your husband, but wow... I would assume you were Amish, but then you couldn't use the Internet!


Definitely not Amish and definitely not Catholic.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> I think what Sparky was actually saying was that a 'real man' wouldn't put porn above his relationship. That if it hurt his wife, or could hurt his sex life, his sex drive and ability to be a good in tune lover, then a decent person/ man on hearing and seeing all the information on how harmful it is -in conjunction with their wife having strong feelings about it, would probably think twice before using it.
> 
> My feelings are that I value in a man the ability to put our relationship first. I also find it very attractive when a man has empathy, and goes against the norm/ crowd to treat women with respect.
> 
> I personally can't reconcile how women are mostly treated on mainstream porn with respecting women.
> 
> That and there are things I've posted by homeland security and the FBI that say that the ex and porn industry use sex traffic victims. If a man knew this and willingly turned a blind eye to it then yes it would make me think less of him.
> 
> There is evidence that women and girls in porn are usually poorly educated, from low socioeconomic backgrounds with few life choices. So if knowing this he still. Hope to view porn, I would think less of him, because I don't like it when people take advantage of those that have the least, or of their naivety.
> 
> I have read lots of studies that show that those who watch main stream porn are more likely to be desensitised to and excuse violence against women, and are more likely to be rape apologists. And there is a lot of evidence that it changes the way we view each other and what turns us on. If knowing this, he still wanted to watch porn. Yes I'd think less of him.
> 
> I could go on. It's not just one going that makes porn a deal breaker for me, but it's a collective of things I find repulsive, unattractive and inhumane.
> 
> I desire a mate who is passionate about social justice and cares about people, even when it doesn't benefit him personally or is even inconvenient to do so. That's what *I* call a real man.


Right.

That's _your_ choice , _your_ criteria of what you consider a 
" real man."

For all the reasons you have given, all of which are subjective , it is your god given right to believe.

Can you accept that other people would feel differently about porn, based on evidence they have and _their_ own experiences?
Is it possible that a person might not have any real interest in porn but understand that some others might be interested and they not be militant in their interactions with others who use it?

What would you do if you found out that your employer or doctor or some other man in a position of trust , used porn?


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## sparkyjim

And little deer is right in that the poll is flawed ...


As is any discussion in which two completely separate things are likened to be the same...to wit, the use of porn without concern about how it affects you or your partner, or what their feelings about it are; and moderate and respectful use by two consenting adults.


----------



## lifeistooshort

richie33 said:


> Yet you don't know if your own husband watches porn.
> I am anti drug....I would not be friends with a drug dealer.
> You also call out people for being "snarky" but yet you are one of the biggest offenders of this on this site.


Sorry you feel that way. I simply return what is thrown at me, but it seems that a lot of people who like to dish it out don't take it so well. I've been called all kinds of names on this site, including crack wh0re, for offering opinions that angry, bitter men don't like and have yet to report anyone. I don't cry to mama, I just throw it back. If you are willing to have a discussion like a grown up you won't be the recipient of snark; seems fair to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Racer

I see a "real man" is also a flawed person. 

So, no, in moderation it doesn't make him less than another man. It just makes him a man.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> And little deer is right in that the poll is flawed ...
> 
> 
> As is any discussion in which two completely separate things are likened to be the same...to wit, the use of porn without concern about how it affects you or your partner, or what their feelings about it are; and moderate and respectful use by two consenting adults.


So now the poll is flawed because it doesn't support your anti porn dogma.

Why is it so difficult to accept that others feel differently towards porn than you?

This reminds me of a period during the 90's when anti abortion activists used violence and bombing of abortion clinics to protest abortions.

Super ironic.

The anti abortionist had no problem _murdering people_ to protest against 
" killing" unborn babies.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Lloyd Dobler said:


> That's a valid question, but I don't think it's damaging - and I can only speak for myself. I think most men (and women) can differentiate between fantasy and reality in the bedroom relative to porn, but just having seen things in a video doesn't automatically make me want to do that with my wife.
> 
> Again, I know that's not always the case with other couples, but i can only speak from my experience.


This is how you discuss opposing viewpoints like adults, thank you.

I suppose this is one of those things you can't ever really get an answer to, because if it's subconscious how would you know? I guess the real test is whether your marriage working for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparkyjim

Theseus said:


> Wow!! Maricha - being married to you would be like being married to one of the nuns I knew back in Catholic school! :rofl:
> 
> I'm glad that works for you and your husband, but wow... I would assume you were Amish, but then you couldn't use the Internet!


I hope you don't mean "knew" in the biblical sense...

But actually, I am offended for Maricha. You assume a lot don't you?

A person doesn't have to drink, smoke, gamble, or use porn to be an amazing and fun person. But you seem to feel that they must.

That's your choice, but like I said, you assume a lot...


----------



## samyeagar

sparkyjim said:


> I think that a *real man* doesn't need porn. That is my opinion.
> 
> I also think that a good husband will approach porn with sensitivity toward how his wife feels about it. That is also my opinion.
> 
> I get a little wrankled when men in relationships think that they have a "god given " right to porn, no matter how their spouse thinks. Or they go on the down low, and agree to the spouse's face but use porn in secret. Or when men claim that porn has "no effect."
> 
> I know there are happy couples who enjoy the use of porn together. I will wager that the husband is approaching this activity with sensitivity. Or maybe, like ScarletBegonias, the wife is the one being sensitive about how her husband feels about porn.
> 
> Either way, I am not really concerned about those couples who have no problem with porn. That's not my platform. That's not my experience.


I think we should start differentiating between "real man" in the general sense of a human being of the male gender and "Real Man(tm)" in the sense of a narrowly defined opinion of the person using the term.

I choose to be a "real man" and not be pigeon holed by someone elses "Real Man(tm)" definition.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

real men and real women discuss major issues like porn,substance usage,money,sex preferences BEFORE a commitment is made.

real men and real women will not pull a bait and switch after agreeing on a specific set of marital boundaries. 

A real man will not hide his porn viewing from his wife ever...no matter how scary she is when she's angry.

A real man and a real woman will attend counseling if there are issues surrounding porn...or anything else for that matter if it affects their marriage deeply enough to cause resentments.

Real adults respect each other with compromise and understanding.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Right.
> 
> That's _your_ choice , _your_ criteria of what you consider a
> " real man."
> 
> For all the reasons you have given, all of which are subjective , it is your god given right to believe.
> 
> Can you accept that other people would feel differently about porn, based on evidence they have and _their_ own experiences?
> Is it possible that a person might not have any real interest in porn but understand that some others might be interested and they not be militant in their interactions with others who use it?
> 
> What would you do if you found out that your employer or doctor or some other man in a position of trust , used porn?


I don't think my reasoning is subjective, so that's the difference. I think it's excused by people who would put sexual pleasure and orgasm over people, and I don't think the FBI etc consider sex Traffic victims subjective. 

I don't believe women are valued enough for it to matter to most people. I think women are others and become things. 

I meet people all the time, who say it's not my thing, but I don't care about other people that use it. And sure I think that's a huge part of the problem. People distorting or minimising what happens to the girls/ women and men in porn, and what's happening to a lot of people who watch it. And then there's people that don't know and don't want to know.
To me I feel as strongly about it as I do domestic violence. And people used to say the same stuff about that. 

You would be surprised how many times or maybe you wouldn't when I have heard men talking flippantly about porn. I know that so many men use it. So I wouldn't be surprised. It correct elated well with the fact that I don't believe women are valued, and that many men are sexist. (No not all). Why there are so many rape apologists etc 

I don't know what you want me to do about it exactly. I do research it. I read a lot of studies etc. I discuss and debate it. I have written a paper on it. I have written letters about it (specifically about keeping women in the industry safer, and putting in place measures that would see men that use underage girls in prison and a way to regulate the industry better).


----------



## sparkyjim

Caribbean Man said:


> So now the poll is flawed because it doesn't support your anti porn dogma.
> Why is it so difficult to accept that others feel differently towards porn than you?
> 
> This reminds me of a period during the 90's when anti abortion activists used violence and bombing of abortion clinics to protest abortions.
> 
> Super ironic.
> 
> The anti abortionist had no problem murdering people to protest against killing unborn babies.


Now I am being compared to this???

Seriously you have to get over yourself...CM

Go ahead, report me now. Get your *self* banned while you are at it...

OK fine... it is my opinion that it is flawed...

It is also my opinion that you will use any argument at your disposal to try to discredit someone who does not agree with you. References to racism, references to murdering people...

what's next CM? Will you bring up WW 2 or maybe what is happening in Nigeria these days....?

Someone warned me about you...

I can see that they are right...


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> So now the poll is flawed because it doesn't support your anti porn dogma.
> 
> Why is it so difficult to accept that others feel differently towards porn than you?
> 
> This reminds me of a period during the 90's when anti abortion activists used violence and bombing of abortion clinics to protest abortions.
> 
> Super ironic.
> 
> The anti abortionist had no problem _murdering people_ to protest against
> " killing" unborn babies.


Yes being sickened by sex trafficking and the porn industry is the same as killing someone? :scratchhead:


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't think my reasoning is subjective, so that's the difference. I think it's excused by people who would put sexual pleasure and orgasm over people, and in don't think the FBI etc consider sex Traffic victims subjective.
> 
> I don't believe women are valued enough for it to matter to most people. I think women are others and become things.
> 
> I meet people all the time, who say it's not my thing, but I don't care about other people that use it. And sure I think that's a huge part of the problem. People distorting or minimising what happens to the girls/ women and men in porn, and what's happening to a lot of people who watch it. And then there's people that don't know and don't want to know.
> To me I feel as strongly about it as I do domestic violence.
> 
> You would be surprised how many times or maybe you wouldn't when I have heard men talking flippantly about porn. I know that so many men use it. So I wouldn't be surprised. It correct elated well with the fact that I don't believe women are valued, and that many men are sexist. (No not all). Why there are so many rape apologists etc
> 
> I don't know what you want me to do about it exactly. I do research it. I read a lot of studies etc. I discuss and debate it. I have written a paper on it. I have written letters about it (specifically about keeping women in the industry safer, and putting in place measures that would see men that use underage girls in prison and a way to regulate the industry better).


So essentially, your views on porn are feminist based?


----------



## richie33

lifeistooshort said:


> Sorry you feel that way. I simply return what is thrown at me, but it seems that a lot of people who like to dish it out don't take it so well. I've been called all kinds of names on this site, including crack wh0re, for offering opinions that angry, bitter men don't like and have yet to report anyone. I don't cry to mama, I just throw it back. If you are willing to have a discussion like a grown up you won't be the recipient of snark; seems fair to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry that other posters would stoop so low. For every angry bitter man there is on this site there is a angry, bitter woman.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> So essentially, your views on porn are feminist based?


If you mean that women shouldn't be treated like they are nothing more then cum receptacles. Then sure.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> Yes being sickened by sex trafficking and the porn industry is the same as killing someone? :scratchhead:


No.

But not allowing _ others_ the freedom of choice which you have, is.


----------



## sparkyjim

Still NOT the same.... but no one here is not allowing someone else to have the choice.

We are *DISCUSSING* something


----------



## richie33

sparkyjim said:


> Now I am being compared to this???
> 
> Seriously you have to get over yourself...CM
> 
> Go ahead, report me now. Get your *self* banned while you are at it...
> 
> OK fine... it is my opinion that it is flawed...
> 
> It is also my opinion that you will use any argument at your disposal to try to discredit someone who does not agree with you. References to racism, references to murdering people...
> 
> what's next CM? Will you bring up WW 2 or maybe what is happening in Nigeria these days....?
> 
> Someone warned me about you...
> 
> I can see that they are right...


Good luck with that. One person warned you about CM and there will be 100 people who know he brings a lot to the table on this site. Put him on ignore if his posts are affecting you so much.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> If you mean that women shouldn't be treated like they are nothing more then cum receptacles. Then sure.


Sex-positive feminism.

"_ Sex-positive feminism (also known as sexually liberal feminism[citation needed] or pro-sex feminism) describes the belief that sexual liberation and sexual freedom are key components of women's liberation. The terms sex-positive feminism and pro-sex feminism are disputed within feminism.

Pornography is seen as being a medium for women's sexual expression in this view. Sex-positive feminists view many radical feminist views on sexuality, including views on pornography, as being as oppressive as those of patriarchal religions and ideologies, and argue that anti-pornography feminist discourse ignores and trivializes women's sexual agency. Ellen Willis (who coined the term "pro-sex feminism") states "As we saw it, the claim that 'pornography is violence against women' was code for the neo-Victorian idea that men want sex and women endure it."[21]

*Sex-positive feminists take a variety of views towards existing pornography. Many sex-positive feminists see pornography as subverting many traditional ideas about women that they oppose, such as ideas that women do not like sex generally, only enjoy sex in a relational context, or that women only enjoy vanilla sex. They also argue that pornography sometimes shows women in sexually dominant roles and presents women with a greater variety of body types than are typical of mainstream entertainment and fashion*_."

~Feminist views of pornography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
.
.


----------



## sparkyjim

I was always taught that when someone in an argument started to bring in race or religion or some other off the wall topic to make their point that they had lost the argument and it was time to stop.

So, thank you CM. I am off to better things today...


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> No.
> 
> But not allowing _ others_ the freedom of choice which you have, is.


Right. 

One is a woman having bodily autonomy when there is a pregnancy. 

No one is saying men can't have bodily autonomy. Have at, do what you want with your sperm, masturbate as much as you want. I'll do the same. 

Just don't harm women, children and other men when you do it. 

You do not have a right to put a few moments or hours of sexual pleasure over people. 

These are not comparable. If a man doesn't watch porn, is his job at risk? Is he at higher risk of abuse and being murdered by his partner? Is he at risk of developing diabetes? Is he at risk of dying like a woman in child birth? Is he at risk of living in poverty? Is he at risk of losing money by missing out on promotions etc? Will his life change dramatically and he not be able to work as easily, go out, go to the gym? Etc. will he put on weight? Maybe get stretch marks? Be at risk of invasive procedures? Have instruments stuck up his penis? Will he have to perhaps have surgery? Or push a a watermelon out his butt? 

Yes totally the same thing. :scratchhead:


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> Still NOT the same.... but no one here is not allowing someone else to have the choice.
> 
> We are *DISCUSSING* something


Sparky,

We're not discussing something in abstract.
We're attempting to discuss something that has much wider implications outside of TAM and in real life.

The general consensus is that people should be allowed the freedom of choice to act in a porn movie and get paid OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

People should be allowed the latitude of whatever type of sexual activities they feel in the privacy of their own homes, so long at both parties are adults and so long as they BOTH CONSENT.

I don't understand why that is so difficult to accept.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Sex-positive feminism.
> 
> "_ Sex-positive feminism (also known as sexually liberal feminism[citation needed] or pro-sex feminism) describes the belief that sexual liberation and sexual freedom are key components of women's liberation. The terms sex-positive feminism and pro-sex feminism are disputed within feminism.
> 
> Pornography is seen as being a medium for women's sexual expression in this view. Sex-positive feminists view many radical feminist views on sexuality, including views on pornography, as being as oppressive as those of patriarchal religions and ideologies, and argue that anti-pornography feminist discourse ignores and trivializes women's sexual agency. Ellen Willis (who coined the term "pro-sex feminism") states "As we saw it, the claim that 'pornography is violence against women' was code for the neo-Victorian idea that men want sex and women endure it."[21]
> 
> *Sex-positive feminists take a variety of views towards existing pornography. Many sex-positive feminists see pornography as subverting many traditional ideas about women that they oppose, such as ideas that women do not like sex generally, only enjoy sex in a relational context, or that women only enjoy vanilla sex. They also argue that pornography sometimes shows women in sexually dominant roles and presents women with a greater variety of body types than are typical of mainstream entertainment and fashion*_."
> 
> ~Feminist views of pornography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> .
> .
> .


Right. I do know what a sex positive feminist is. 

In terms of feminists, there aren't that many in numbers. And many argue that it's not really feminism for many reasons. 

I fail to see how it empowers women when if they are a sex slave. Being raped, and so on. Yes so empowering to be looked down on, so empowering to be paid a fraction of the amount of what the men are producers are making and while they are shoving as many penis's in you as they can at once. Super empowering when they tear up your anus and you have to have a Dr on set to stitch you up. 

Most men are so grossed out by the thought of a little bit of cum touching their mouths, yet women are supposed to be empowered by drinking it. Oh and by being called wh0res and sl(ts. So empowering that most men would never want to date them. 

But you keep on believing all people in porn love it. They love being there. They had heaps of other options - you know for most of them it was oil tycoon or porn, and porn was just so much more appealing.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> Right.
> 
> One is a woman having bodily autonomy when there is a pregnancy.
> 
> No one is saying men can't have bodily autonomy. Have at, do what you want with your sperm, masturbate as much as you want. I'll do the same.
> 
> Just don't harm women, children and other men when you do it.
> 
> You do not have a right to put a few moments or hours of sexual pleasure over people.
> 
> These are not comparable. If a man doesn't watch porn, is his job at risk? Is he at higher risk of abuse and being murdered by his partner? Is he at risk of developing diabetes? Is he at risk of dying like a woman in child birth? Is he at risk of living in poverty? Is he at risk of losing money by missing out on promotions etc? Will his life change dramatically and he not be able to work as easily, go out, go to the gym? Etc. will he put on weight? Maybe get stretch marks? Be at risk of invasive procedures? Have instruments stuck up his penis? Will he have to perhaps have surgery? Or push a a watermelon out his butt?
> 
> Yes totally the same thing. :scratchhead:


Ok.

Lemme ask you in a different way.

Should a woman be *allowed* to act in a porn movie on her own free will?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*LittleDeer* said:


> Just don't harm women, children and other men when you do it.
> 
> You do not have a right to put a few moments or hours of sexual pleasure over people.
> 
> :


If the porn industry had a major overhaul and became tightly regulated to the point that no women,children,and other men were harmed in the production would it make a difference in your view of porn usage?


----------



## MSP

*LittleDeer* said:


> Just don't harm women, children and other men when you do it.
> 
> You do not have a right to put a few moments or hours of sexual pleasure over people.


For a moment there, I thought this was an argument against abortion. Wouldn't that be ironic.


----------



## Caribbean Man

richie33 said:


> Good luck with that. One person warned you about CM and there will be 100 people who know he brings a lot to the table on this site. Put him on ignore if his posts are affecting you so much.


The poll figures speak for themselves.
But he's mad at what they're saying.

And the funny thing is that the question in the poll wasn't even about the morality.
Just about the freedom of choice to use or not to use porn.

But he's mad. 
There shouldn't be any freedom of choice, because " real men" don't use porn.


----------



## MSP

The poll didn't have enough options for me. Real men sometimes do things that hurt their relationships. And real men may avoid porn for reasons other than the idea that it hurts women.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Lloyd Dobler said:


> That's a valid question, but I don't think it's damaging - and I can only speak for myself. I think most men (and women) can differentiate between fantasy and reality in the bedroom relative to porn, but just having seen things in a video doesn't automatically make me want to do that with my wife.
> 
> Again, I know that's not always the case with other couples, but i can only speak from my experience.


I'm not anti-porn but I do think that in some men it can definitely have harmful effects. By viewing it some men may be exposed to some things they otherwise would not have seen, and then try and bring that to the marital bed. Depending on what it is it may spice things up, but when I see the growing popularity of cuckold porn I wonder what came first. The chicken or the egg. There seems to be a growing number of men that want to share their wives.


----------



## sinnister

I've come to the realization here that some people on this board view the world WAY WAY differently than I do.

Not at all unexpected since I'm a bit of weirdo, but I didn't think I was this far off.

This type of stuff just doesn't get me as worked up as say, children starving to death or making enough money to ensure my kids have the best life possible.

In short, forms of media never have and never will bother me. As soon as we start peronafying media we shift blame and attribute it to the wrong thing. I'm being deliberately vague here so I don't get flammed/banned.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sinnister said:


> This type of stuff just doesn't get me as worked up as say, children starving to death or making enough money to ensure my kids have the best life possible.
> 
> In short, forms of media never have and never will bother me. As soon as we start peronafying media we shift blame and attribute it to the wrong thing. I'm being deliberately vague here so I don't get flammed/banned.


That's why I no longer join any political or religious " movements."

They tend to ask you to surrender your freedom of thought and you must toe their political lines.

Ironically, that's the same reason most of these movements splinter when they exceed the critical mass.


----------



## 6301

If the question is does watching porn make a man less of a man then let me ask this and I'm not in any way judging anyone who watches porn.

If a woman uses a vibrator on herself make her less of a woman?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

6301 said:


> If the question is does watching porn make a man less of a man then let me ask this and I'm not in any way judging anyone who watches porn.
> 
> If a woman uses a vibrator on herself make her less of a woman?


A vibrator isn't the same as porn though. It doesn't involve the images of other people. 

now if the question was "does masturbating make a man a lesser man" then yes, the vibrator comparison would be valid.


----------



## Racer

ScarletBegonias said:


> real men and real women discuss major issues like porn,substance usage,money,sex preferences BEFORE a commitment is made.
> 
> real men and real women will not pull a bait and switch after agreeing on a specific set of marital boundaries.


Was in full agreement until this point..



> A real man will not hide his porn viewing from his wife ever...no matter how scary she is when she's angry.


See the above boundaries established and discussed BEFORE the commitment. A “real woman” also doesn’t bait and switch and understands ramifications can be far reaching. So, if she changes ‘dating sex’ to ‘occasional duty sex’ without understanding and agreement by her 'real man', she might reasonably understand her “real man”, while committed to the marriage, may increase his masturbation/porn usage due to a change in the relationship simply because changes in her libido don't equate to changes in his own.

The ‘real woman’ may reserve her right to be upset by this, but also must accept and understand she is part of the solution instead of just shaming her husband out of anger. If said “real woman” forgoes her playing a role in said man’s sexual frustrations and instead wages a campaign of rage, shaming, humiliation techniques, and/or withdraw from further sexual activities as punishment, she should also understand the escalation may result in said man being unwilling to share information just to be used as a weapon for character attacks against him and the resultant lack of reliance on her for carnal desires. 



> A real man and a real woman will attend counseling if there are issues surrounding porn...or anything else for that matter if it affects their marriage deeply enough to cause resentments.
> 
> Real adults respect each other with compromise and understanding.


Exactly. Both sides.


----------



## sinnister

ScarletBegonias said:


> A vibrator isn't the same as porn though. It doesn't involve the images of other people.
> 
> now if the question was "does masturbating make a man a lesser man" then yes, the vibrator comparison would be valid.


Mental imagery is just as powerful as imagery on a screen. Maybe even moreso if the "fantasy" while using the V is of a real live person.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think what 6301 is saying is that the vibrator / sex toy is a masturbatory aid to woman and porn is also a masturbatory aid to a man.

I don't know if it is an appropriate comparison though, but I wonder if some on this thread are saying " real men " don't masturbate.

And if they aren't saying that , then I don't think it's appropriate for anybody to dictate to anyone else what sort of stimuli they should use during masturbation.

That's either that person's choice or the choice of the couple involved.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Just pouring out thoughts here...

I get kind of irritated when people assume everyone who likes porn is watching the depraved,abusive,rape simulation,gang bang,etc type porn. 

I happen to REALLY like watching gifs and looking at pics of just two people together. whether they're giving each other oral or having sex in different positions. THAT is what I enjoy. When my husband looked at porn before we were together...he just looked at two person type porn videos. 

It just seems like no one differentiates when saying porn is bad and harmful and inhumane to the people involved in its production. I don't feel that is fair at all.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

sinnister said:


> Mental imagery is just as powerful as imagery on a screen. Maybe even moreso if the "fantasy" while using the V is of a real live person.


nothing was said about comparing mind fantasies to porn though. The post just stated about using a vibrator. It can also be assumed the woman isn't thinking of anything at all and is just feeling sensations til she O's.


----------



## Cosmos

Does using porn make a man a lesser man? I guess it depends on who is to be the judge of this... Many men will answer "No," but for many women the answer will be "Yes." 

I don't give a hoot what other people do in their relationships, but I care _deeply _about what goes on in mine. I would find it a _huge_ turn off if my SO habitually jerked off to porn, but fortunately we're too busy having REAL sex _together_ for this to be an issue.


----------



## sinnister

ScarletBegonias said:


> Just pouring out thoughts here...
> 
> I get kind of irritated when people assume everyone who likes porn is watching the depraved,abusive,rape simulation,gang bang,etc type porn.
> 
> I happen to REALLY like watching gifs and looking at pics of just two people together. whether they're giving each other oral or having sex in different positions. THAT is what I enjoy. When my husband looked at porn before we were together...he just looked at two person type porn videos.
> 
> It just seems like no one differentiates when saying porn is bad and harmful and inhumane to the people involved in its production. I don't feel that is fair at all.


Agreed X10. Along with what you described I watch foot pron.

99% of the people here wouldn't even consider that pron. They'd just think I'm a werid dude checking out moving pictures of womens feet.


----------



## sinnister

ScarletBegonias said:


> nothing was said about comparing mind fantasies to porn though. The post just stated about using a vibrator. It can also be assumed the woman isn't thinking of anything at all and is just feeling sensations til she O's.


True. Though I didn't think that was possible. Not saying it isn't just that I'm so inexperienced with women I don't know either way.


----------



## southern wife

committed4ever said:


> 5. If men learn about sex from porn, *they will miss the importance of the emotional connection of sex*


I know this all too well and have lived it for the past 13 years. Gladly getting off this ride.

Hence, I'm moving into my own home tomorrow!


----------



## Caribbean Man

southern wife said:


> I know this all too well and have lived it for the past 13 years. Gladly getting off this ride.
> 
> *Hence, I'm moving into my own home tomorrow! *


Congrats SW!


----------



## southern wife

Thanks, CM!!

You know exactly what I've been dealing with. So glad it's over!


----------



## Wolf1974

Caribbean Man said:


> I think what 6301 is saying is that the vibrator / sex toy is a masturbatory aid to woman and porn is also a masturbatory aid to a man.
> 
> I don't know if it is an appropriate comparison though, but I wonder if some on this thread are saying " real men " don't masturbate.
> 
> And if they aren't saying that , then I don't think it's appropriate for anybody to dictate to anyone else what sort of stimuli they should use during masturbation.
> 
> That's either that person's choice or the choice of the couple involved.


Exactly. And as I stated in the other thread about this many men, myself included, need visual stimulation to get to climax. So me using anything from hand to a pocket ***** isn't going to get the job done without some sort of visual stimulus. If some guys and most women can masterbate with NO visual imagery or thoughts about sex great for them...doesn't work for all of us.


----------



## Oldfaithful

Wolf1974 said:


> Exactly. And as I stated in the other thread about this many men, myself included, need visual stimulation to get to climax. So me using anything from hand to a pocket ***** isn't going to get the job done without some sort of visual stimulus. If some guys and most women can masterbate with NO visual imagery or thoughts about sex great for them...doesn't work for all of us.



I'm so not against porn but I have to wonder of that's something learned. I just wonder if you were born in the days before photography would that still be the case, or would you have to find erotic drawings and urns to use. 

I'm not sure what a "real" man is. But I wouldn't be comfortable in a relationship with a man who never looked at porn or thought it was wrong. 
If he was using it addictively, avoiding sex with me, spending money on it, or interacting with live cam
models that would be a problem. 

A lot of people enjoy watching situations or reading erotica that is about fantasies that they really don't want to act out. Some things are better left to the imagination.


----------



## Racer

On the take that porn takes away from the emotional connection of sex, I’d argue that point. 

On one side, good sex can also be a great emotional bonding experience. On the flip side, duty sex and regular rejection is a much greater emotional devastation than porn. Sex is the #1 complaint of all married men about their marriage. Porn isn’t someone you are heads over heels about telling you they don’t want you over and over; It’s that goddess next to you. Hell, even porn starts taking on negative emotions because it is yet another reminder of you being denied healthy sex. Sex can be highly destructive in a relationship. Is porn to blame? Chicken and egg fight wife and I have had…. I just know me; When the sex is good and regular, I rarely masturbate (which involves porn most the time). For me, it is connected.

Slightly off topic, but I have wondered if that allure to younger women (and the most popular porn) might have an cognitive association with ‘when sex was good’ for most men.


----------



## jaharthur

I wish I could remember the name of the member who used to post in these porn threads to refute, quite effectively, the arguments that there is legitimate scholarly research widely supporting the most virulent anti-porn crusaders. I have never seen it. Most of the "research" supporting the claims about "rape apologists" and the like has been from sources with an agenda rather than from academics seeking knowledge.

In my own subjective opinion (unlike many, I'll admit the subjectivity inherent in this discussion), the alcohol analogy is a good one. Alcohol kills, maims, and ruins orders of magnitude more people than porn. It destroys more marriages. It causes carnage on the roads. But I can have a sip of wine with dinner and be unaffected by its negatives.

DISCLAIMER: I agree that a porn ADDICTION is a significant, real problem. Maybe even for some "Real Men (TM)".


----------



## jaharthur

Oh, and while I'm being a trouble maker.

My wife and I occasionally watch porn together. What we watch involves exclusively women, either solo or couples. No penises to be seen, no ejaculations, no facials, etc. etc. It's women pleasuring themselves or other women. The women are not porn stars, although they are more than amateurs. They are natural, meaning no cosmetic surgery and--GASP--they have hair below their shoulders! The scenes are clearly designed to be erotic for women as well as men. By that I mean that the women are getting pleasure in realistic ways, not from using ridiculously huge dildos as you would see in productions from the San Fernando Valley (porn capital of the world). Indeed, these videos are not made in California or any of the usual porn suspect locations.

Is such porn demeaning to women? Can a "Real Man (TM)" watch with his spouse?

Just wondering.


----------



## AnnieAsh

It doesn't matter what random people on a website think. What matters is whether or not both spouses agree and consent to the use within the relationship. 

What makes a Real Man a Real Man? I suppose his penis and male bits. Does watching porn make him desirable to ME? No. Not really. I don't find it appealing or sexy. But that's just me! 

SW, I don't know if you know but my husband struggles mightily with a very pervasive and deep porn addiction. He has for years, unbeknownst to me. I'm terrified that some day it will spell the end of our marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

Oldfaithful said:


> I'm so not against porn but I have to wonder of that's something learned. I just wonder if you were born in the days before photography would that still be the case, or would you have to find erotic drawings and urns to use.
> 
> I'm not sure what a "real" man is. But I wouldn't be comfortable in a relationship with a man who never looked at porn or thought it was wrong.
> If he was using it addictively, avoiding sex with me, spending money on it, or interacting with live cam
> models that would be a problem.
> 
> A lot of people enjoy watching situations or reading erotica that is about fantasies that they really don't want to act out. Some things are better left to the imagination.


Well not sure about learned. I know I was in about 4th grade when a older boy described to me and my friends what masterbation was but while I could get hard I couldn't finish. Soon as I found some playboy mags I was able to though. 

This is also part of sex though, least for me. If in a totally, and I mean totally dark room having sex with a woman I can't get to orgasm without thinking about something. So I always have candles or mood lighting to stay in the moment and with my partner


----------



## southern wife

AnnieAsh said:


> It doesn't matter what random people on a website think. What matters is whether or not both spouses agree and consent to the use within the relationship.
> 
> What makes a Real Man a Real Man? I suppose his penis and male bits. Does watching porn make him desirable to ME? No. Not really. I don't find it appealing or sexy. But that's just me!
> 
> SW, I don't know if you know but my husband struggles mightily with a very pervasive and deep porn addiction. He has for years, unbeknownst to me. I'm terrified that some day it will spell the end of our marriage.


Annie, baby, I did not know this.  Sorry to hear it. I'm not saying that porn ended our marriage, but the lack of emotional/physical bonding was part of it, among other issues. I lived 13 years without much emotional bonding/pillow talk. Now that I'm at the end of that road, I won't live that way again when/if someone else walks into my life.


----------



## SpinDaddy

"Real men don't watch porn" well . . . . they don't watch gay porn. :rofl:


----------



## Theseus

sparkyjim said:


> The percentage of porn that is about men being abused by women is decidedly small, and the primary consumers of such porn is men. That's their kink and they are welcome to it. It's not leading to a problem with men coming home from work to find their wives in Domme boots and cracking a whip.
> 
> You can obfuscate all you want but it isn't confusing anyone...


I think you misunderstand. Someone said porn was demeaning to women. All porn, not necessarily abusive porn. I simply responded, then what about men? If it's demeaning to women, isn't it demeaning to men as well? Women aren't the only ones who appear in porn. 



> _And your wife needed sexual education... not necessarily porn, so that doesn't apply either_.


Yes, she needed sexual education back then (definitely not today). But porn/erotica was simply a better way for us to do it. We were in love after all, and passionate for each other. *I wasn't going to give her a dry, clinical sex education class like she was a student in high school!*


----------



## Theseus

sparkyjim said:


> But actually, I am offended for Maricha. You assume a lot don't you?
> 
> A person doesn't have to drink, smoke, gamble, or use porn to be an amazing and fun person. But you seem to feel that they must.
> 
> That's your choice, but like I said, you assume a lot...



:redcard: 
Whoa stop! I know you have had cross words with others in this thread, but you misunderstand here too. I was just teasing Maricha. No offense intended.


----------



## sparkyjim

Theseus said:


> :redcard:
> Whoa stop! I know you have had cross words with others in this thread, but you misunderstand here too. I was just teasing Maricha. No offense intended.


Right. I defended myself against a bully.

I had cross words with someone who tried to equate my opinion with systems of racist governments and with radical anti abortionist killers.

So forgive me if my hackles were raised when I came to the defense of a woman. You and I have no problem...


----------



## ocotillo

sinnister said:


> Mental imagery is just as powerful as imagery on a screen. Maybe even moreso if the "fantasy" while using the V is of a real live person.


Yes. The word, "Pornography" was coined long before the invention of the camera to describe a sexually explicit story.

That is still the primary definition in every English dictionary out there, so mental imagery does enter into the discussion because that is how one appreciates a story.


----------



## 6301

ScarletBegonias said:


> A vibrator isn't the same as porn though. It doesn't involve the images of other people.
> 
> now if the question was "does masturbating make a man a lesser man" then yes, the vibrator comparison would be valid.


Yeah your right to a point but when a woman is using a vibrator, she's not thinking about what she's going to make for dinner. She's thinking of some guy having sex with her. In other words a mind movie, Maybe not in all cases. Ahh what the hell do I know, I'm not a woman.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok.
> 
> Lemme ask you in a different way.
> 
> Should a woman be *allowed* to act in a porn movie on her own free will?


Some things shouldn't be allowed even if people want to do them. And the porn industry as it stands is extremely harmful. To me it's like saying should some people be able to abuse women, if the women want to be abused? Because women in the porn industry are being abused. 


ScarletBegonias said:


> If the porn industry had a major overhaul and became tightly regulated to the point that no women,children,and other men were harmed in the production would it make a difference in your view of porn usage?


That would make a huge difference. 
There are quite a few things that need to be changed and monitored and implemented before I would ever be OK. With it. But yes that would make me feel so much better. 


MSP said:


> For a moment there, I thought this was an argument against abortion. Wouldn't that be ironic.


Um no, not really. Different subject. And I would find it ironic that people who think women shouldn't have sex unless they want to have a baby are ok about porn. That would be ironic to me. 
However it's not relevant to the discussion.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Everyone will have their own personal views on this one...and they can be HEATED depending on beliefs / values, their personal experiences with it...and how one views the intent of the porn industry....some feel all women are victims -they are lured, then abused by men...Others see choice if they are consenting adults...

In my opinion, Yes.. a couple can have a fabulous marriage and a husband (and wife) can still enjoy a little porn.. this would describe our marriage in a big way... though NEITHER OF US LIKE Hard core, my husband finds it demeaning and UGLY....he is very very tame..he doesn't even want to see the man in it ....if he has his way..... I suppose I should feel jealous that he wants to gaze upon other naked women.. but I don't... because he has always saved every release for me.. and that is damn special... it's not the norm, in fact I am sure we are freaking strange, I suppose.. but my point is...

Every couple is different... plus where did my H learn about sex.. reading Playboy!...(He read the articles too)....Do I find that normal behavior... I DO... I am thankful he knew what to do with me when we got together, he was the most patient loving man -in how he handled me... I used to tell him he was an amazing lover and always comment on .."how did he know what to do with me"?... I was his 1st...I could not have asked for more...as far as a Gentleman.. and how he treated his lady.. 

Maybe some here would not consider Playboy Porn, even he feels now that Hefner has turned it over...to his daughters I think.. it is going downhill... just his opinion.... 



committed4ever said:


> Lastly, I do recognize that the large majority of men will never feel the way that I and large numbers of women feel about porn being bad for relationships. And most men probably will never understand why some women feel that way. I'm just so thankful that my husband understands. And I do feel so sorry for the women who feel the way I feel but have husbands who don't understand. * I just wish there was something that could be done to lead to some understanding between these couples*.


I think this book would be a great start for those couples....







Love and Pornography: Dealing with Porn and Saving your Relationship: Books









It was written by a husband and wife ....who decided to hear each other out ..no matter how painful.... with the determination *to understand* each others side and feelings ..before throwing it all away... 

This couple has WALKED it (they used to be members here at TAM even-when I landed here)... this wife can relate to every perceived hurt a woman feels/takes to heart... she was ready to end the marriage over it even (though they had a decent sex life through it, he was not ignoring her needs)......

Addiction to porn & using it over a willing loving wife is another issue entirely ...of course...this does destroy many marriages... personally I would find that as cheating...a breakage of the vows to love & cherish.. 

I bought the book for pure curiosity.... I didn't read it to the end, but I believe the husband gives it up willingly, not out of compulsion, threats or fear tactics from his wife....but only after he FELT HEARD by her....his hearing her side...being open to her strong emotions also led him to this place... for the betterment of their marriage... 

Far too many women JUMP like a crazy women when they hear their men have looked at some porn.... I got a little too religious at one time & had my day of over-reacting -when I would find files on his computer (again just Playboy bunnies)...I'd post scriptures on his desktop, I even cried....it made him feel so bad....but he never denied me & was at my beck & call ... couldn't ask for a better husband. ...

Now I let him look at anything he wants...and we watch porn together ! It has helped ME get a little more creative in bed... we rented it for a time.. but I realize our story is all backwards... .. I WISH his watching some more aggressive porn could turn him into more of an animal for me.. but oh well.. he is what he is.. he enjoys what he enjoys...and I refuse to make a big deal out of something that isn't hurting us in the least.. 

Really...I feel it is a rare man who doesn't slip a little porn now & then, even if they are his convictions...I would probably even question his Test levels if he had no interest at all...It's one of man's greatest battles. >> Every religious man worth any salt knows this - why such books have been written >> 

Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time ...


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> ... though NEITHER OF US LIKE Hard core, my husband finds it demeaning and UGLY....


I think this is a good point, SA. I am assuming the porn discussed here is the hard core variety.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> *Some things shouldn't be allowed even if people want to do them. *
> 
> And the porn industry as it stands is extremely harmful. To me it's like saying should some people be able to abuse women, if the women want to be abused? Because women in the porn industry are being abused.


Ok.

There are a few major problems in your line of reasoning.

In sociological terms , it is assumed that all human beings, male and females are born with an inalienable, non negotiable right called agency.

One's agency is one's independent capability or ability to act on one's will. This ability is affected by the cognitive belief structure which one has formed through one's experiences, and the perceptions held by the society and the individual, of the structures and circumstances of the environment one is in and the position they are born into. 

Agency is what gives a woman over the age of 18 , the right to choose her sexual partners , her own husband , and if she wants to abort an unborn baby or not.

In days past, before the dawn of feminism, women didn't have these rights, and simply trespassing them often led to imprisonment or death.
Even today, in some Muslim countries, if a woman takes a " selfie" [ personal photograph] of herself in the nude , and it falls in the wrong hands, the same fate awaits her
She is denied agency over her body.
In Western societies , because of feminism and the sexual revolution, women do whatever they want to do with their bodies even if it's harmful to them and it's illegal for anyone or any group to restrain them against their wills.

So if a woman is being forced into prostitution or the porn industry, she is denied agency over her body ,and it is a criminal offence.
Conversely, if a woman wants to act in a porn movie of her own free will or become a stripper in the hope of making extra cash, then logically, to attempt to force her not to against her free will, would also amount to denying her agency over her body.

It is highly inaccurate to assume that all or even most of the women in the mainstream adult video industry are forced into it against their own wills.
Money plays a huge part. The average pornstar makes above 
US $30,000.00 / month.
Ironically, male actors are paid less than 1% of that for the exact , same scenes.
Notice I left out prostitution , because of legislative , political and social hurdles, trafficking thrives there. But that's another discussion.

Whether or not the industry harms women is irrelevant in the context of a woman's agency.
We all choose or paths towards our own personal goals [ agency] based on our own assessment of the risk / reward analysis.

The exact , same thing can be said of abortions. It is a proven fact that abortions harms women psychologically, emotionally and sometimes even physically.
Should a woman be * allowed* to have an abortion?

In the context of her inalienable , god given right to agency,as long as she has _intentionality, power, and rationality_, 
The question does not and _ cannot_ arise.


----------



## Theseus

ScarletBegonias said:


> If the porn industry had a major overhaul and became tightly regulated to the point that no women,children,and other men were harmed in the production would it make a difference in your view of porn usage?



I wonder if this would make you and LittleDeer more comfortable with porn. It's about "feminist porn", supposedly porn without objectifying women:

BBC News - Where the world's feminist pornographers gather

(Link is safe, there is no actual porn on that site).


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Theseus said:


> I wonder if this would make you and LittleDeer more comfortable with porn. It's about "feminist porn", supposedly porn without objectifying women:
> 
> BBC News - Where the world's feminist pornographers gather
> 
> (Link is safe, there is no actual porn on that site).


I don't have a problem with most types of porn. Not sure where you got that impression:scratchhead:


----------



## Oldfaithful

*Re: Re: Does using porn make a man a lesser man?*



Theseus said:


> I wonder if this would make you and LittleDeer more comfortable with porn. It's about "feminist porn", supposedly porn without objectifying women:
> 
> BBC News - Where the world's feminist pornographers gather
> 
> (Link is safe, there is no actual porn on that site).


I've found the best way to enjoy porn that isn't demeaning to women is to watch porn with just men.


----------



## Miss Taken

I have a _tricky_ relationship with porn right now. Porn was never a problem for me, for us, for him until it became a problem. Both of us have said many times to each other that ours with each other is the best sexual relationship either of us has ever had. We had a great sex life for seven years before porn became *a symptom of a bigger problem*.

In those seven years, we both watched porn both individually and often together. Then his crisis happened (a Type II diabetes illness diagnosis) and all hell broke loose. He couldn’t cope and started abusing porn, started lying about it and if there is such thing as addiction – became addicted to it. We had *SEVEN *years of good, intimate, sometimes raunchy, very frequent and healthy sex. Then all of the problems that C4E mentioned on page 1 of this thread happened. 

His preferences also escalated, as did the amount he watched, the variety and the amount of time he spent watching porn EVERY DAY. Add to that – his porn-induced, unrealistic unmet fantasies i.e. “quacking” for ONE (if you don’t know what that is, you probably don’t want to know), “golden showers” for another made him think I was being a prude and that he should look elsewhere and then cheated.

Do I think porn is to blame? *Not. at. all.* His sh!tty coping skills, lack of integrity and immaturity were to blame. I do think that if it wasn’t porn and then cheating, it would have been something else – drugs, alcohol, gambling (insert fix here). He simply didn’t have the means at the time within himself to cope with the devastation of being diagnosed with a life-long illness. As far as he knew he was at death's door. He was scared and didn't want to deal with it so porn and then cheating, became his escape.

I also don’t think that “real men” don’t watch porn. Before my spouse became “addicted” to it, I was fine with him watching and thought of him as a “real man”. Heck, I watched it on my own too sometimes. Romance novels aren't my thing, I wanted the visuals too.

Like Mr. Adams has said, I don’t think it’s for everybody. There was a time when I/we could both enjoy it as a couple and it was just another add on like bringing toys into the bedroom but it’s obviously clear to me that he couldn’t handle it, much like an alcoholic shouldn’t drink. Right now, I wouldn’t be okay with him watching porn but that's not because I'm against porn - that's because he's shown me that I can't trust him with it. I don’t know if that will change but he doesn’t even own his own computer anymore and it’s not something we’ve re-introduced back into our sex life.

FWIW,

Miss T


----------



## xakulax

Does using porn make a man a lesser man??



Unless someone choose porn over a real live women the answer is no it dos not make you a lesser man.


----------



## dsGrazzl3D

Not reading any other replys (SO FAR) I had to say yes.... Porn only propetuates those age old sterotypes of women serving men's sexual desires and needs. It does not have to be a evil thing. It can be viewed as a tool.... 

**BUT** The factor that pushed my decision towards _*"YES" (real men understand porn hurts women)*_, is in the fact that it is now a business. If it was not for the sheer business and profit I could see it as more a tool, like gambling and casinos. Yet here is a business that makes millions, if not billions, of dollars on the sexaul exploits of mostly young and most often times damaged women. Sure guys also can be victimized by this business also, but let us all be honest in the fact the there is always going to be a larger male audence than female for porn. It will always there for have more aggression and negitive aspects than positive qualites.


----------



## CuddleBug

Caribbean Man said:


> So I was on a thread where a poster said emphatically that
> " _real men don't watch porn.._."
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?
> 
> Do you think that viewing porn makes a man a bad man or lesser than a " real man?"
> 
> Does porn ruin relationships?
> Of course it does, just like alcohol, gambling ,money and TAM.
> But I'm sure everyone here doesn't mind having money, or a glass of wine after dinner, or a trip to Las Vegas and posting regularly on TAM.
> 
> The key however is moderation. Setting proper boundaries and keeping them, just like any other area in a relationship.
> 
> And I think that every person/ couple should have the right to decide whether or not something is good _for them_ or _their relationship _, and in what quantity,if any at all.
> 
> Thoughts?



Excellent post.:smthumbup:


My 2 cents for what its worth. 

- The ladies get into porn by choice. There is no gun to their heads. 
- They have choice to do certain sex acts or not and who they would have sex with.
- They get paid way better than men and are worth more than the men. 
- They love the sex and being the center of attention too.


So when I hear, porn is horrible for ladies, I don't buy it. It's definitely safer than being an escort.......or doing drugs......alcohol.........etc.

Now a happy man and woman, who love each other, married, etc. shouldn't need porn in their lives because they have each other, but to spice things up once in a while, isn't a bad thing.:smthumbup:


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok.
> 
> There are a few major problems in your line of reasoning.
> 
> In sociological terms , it is assumed that all human beings, male and females are born with an inalienable, non negotiable right called agency.
> 
> One's agency is one's independent capability or ability to act on one's will. This ability is affected by the cognitive belief structure which one has formed through one's experiences, and the perceptions held by the society and the individual, of the structures and circumstances of the environment one is in and the position they are born into.
> 
> Agency is what gives a woman over the age of 18 , the right to choose her sexual partners , her own husband , and if she wants to abort an unborn baby or not.
> 
> In days past, before the dawn of feminism, women didn't have these rights, and simply trespassing them often led to imprisonment or death.
> Even today, in some Muslim countries, if a woman takes a " selfie" [ personal photograph] of herself in the nude , and it falls in the wrong hands, the same fate awaits her
> She is denied agency over her body.
> In Western societies , because of feminism and the sexual revolution, women do whatever they want to do with their bodies even if it's harmful to them and it's illegal for anyone or any group to restrain them against their wills.
> 
> So if a woman is being forced into prostitution or the porn industry, she is denied agency over her body ,and it is a criminal offence.
> Conversely, if a woman wants to act in a porn movie of her own free will or become a stripper in the hope of making extra cash, then logically, to attempt to force her not to against her free will, would also amount to denying her agency over her body.
> 
> It is highly inaccurate to assume that all or even most of the women in the mainstream adult video industry are forced into it against their own wills.
> Money plays a huge part. The average pornstar makes above
> US $30,000.00 / month.
> Ironically, male actors are paid less than 1% of that for the exact , same scenes.
> Notice I left out prostitution , because of legislative , political and social hurdles, trafficking thrives there. But that's another discussion.
> 
> Whether or not the industry harms women is irrelevant in the context of a woman's agency.
> We all choose or paths towards our own personal goals [ agency] based on our own assessment of the risk / reward analysis.
> 
> The exact , same thing can be said of abortions. It is a proven fact that abortions harms women psychologically, emotionally and sometimes even physically.
> Should a woman be * allowed* to have an abortion?
> 
> In the context of her inalienable , god given right to agency,as long as she has _intentionality, power, and rationality_,
> The question does not and _ cannot_ arise.


Stop comparing porn with abortions. A pregnancy can harm a woman in all the ways you mentioned. It has nothing to do with porn. 

I will come back and discuss more later, but don't have time right now for everything. 

I do know what agency is. Thanks. 

The problem with your argument is the free will part. If so many women do it because they just love it so much, why is it mostly young women from lower socioecenomic areas, with little education? when women are truly given equal access and equity in society, and poor children are given the same life chances as rich ones, same. Nutrition, same education, and the opportunity to actually succeed and the same supports etc then we can talk more about free will and who chooses to be there. Of course there is more to it then that, however I digress. 

As for the pay scale 
The Adult Industry Doesn’t Pay! (As Much As You Think) - The Daily Beast
Here is an article on what they are actually earning. The men and the women. The men are earning less, but have a longer porn life so to speak, and are usually put through less, (don't have to swallow cum) don't usually have rough sex with multiple men and so forth. That said, the pay scale is terrible for both and men are paid roughly half the amount as women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> Stop comparing porn with abortions. A pregnancy can harm a woman in all the ways you mentioned. It has nothing to do with porn.
> 
> I will come back and discuss more later, but don't have time right now for everything.
> 
> I do know what agency is. Thanks.
> 
> The problem with your argument is the free will part. If so many women do it because they just love it so much, why is it mostly young women from lower socioecenomic areas, with little education? when women are truly given equal access and equity in society, and poor children are given the same life chances as rich ones, same. Nutrition, same education, and the opportunity to actually succeed and the same supports etc then we can talk more about free will and who chooses to be there. Of course there is more to it then that, however I digress.
> 
> As for the pay scale
> The Adult Industry Doesnâ€™t Pay! (As Much As You Think) - The Daily Beast
> Here is an article on what they are actually earning. The men and the women. The men are earning less, but have a longer porn life so to speak, and are usually put through less, (don't have to swallow cum) don't usually have rough sex with multiple men and so forth. That said, the pay scale is terrible for both and men are paid roughly half the amount as women.



Firstly, thanks for providing the link, it explains quite accurately and nicely, what I've been saying all along this thread.

So,
You don't like comparing porn with abortions, so I won't compare it with anything.

But that doesn't change the facts.

Firstly you're confusing a lot of stuff here.

One is agency vs structure in shaping human behavior, as it relates to the adult industry.

Your argument is that if the women who entered porn had better opportunities , they wouldn't have entered. This is a gross oversimplification which takes personal responsibility from the actor in the porn industry and places it on the rest of society , many of whom came from identical or sometimes worse backgrounds , but made a different use of their choices.
Former pornstar Asia Carerra was a university grad, ballet dancer and a member of Mensa international, _before_ she entered porn, and she's not the only one.
Agency presupposes personal responsibility.

I'll give you an example.
In our country, it is a criminal offence punishable by a minimum of 10 yrs imprisonment , to have sex with a mentally deranged person. The assumption behind the law is that such a person doesn't have agency , because they lack proper cognitive capacity. Hence they can't give consent.

Quite interestingly, your logic seems not to apply to the men in the industry , who according to the link you provided, are sometimes paid as low as $50 / scene whilst the women in the same scene are paid as much as $1500.00 .

Yet strangely enough you think only the women are exploited.

Here's an excerpt from the link you provided:

" _Award-winning porn star Courtney Cummz doesn’t see the point of working for low wages. “*The same company that used to pay my rate is now trying to get me to do a scene for $600 dollars,” she says. “I’m like, ‘Have you lost your mind?’ I can sit home and do cam shows for five hours or so, and make that much money and not have to have sex with this guy that’s a $200 performer...*_”

THAT^^^ is agency. She's established herself in as a porn star, the companies she's accustomed working with decided to cut her wages, she decided to quit, start her OWN porn business, and *earn more* for her performances.

And there is absolutely nothing you or me could do to her legally, that can stop her from " harming herself." You go try to stop her and she sue you for every last penny for harassment, defamation and everything else.

If she doesn't see her actions as harmful to herself and willing does them, then how can the person who pays for her vids be harming her?

Also according to the link you provided, internet porn is cutting into the profits of the traditional porn production companies. The reason being, more and more women in the adult business ,are deciding to produce their own films, create their own fan base so that they make *more money.*

_So who or what is forcing them into porn ?_
_Who is harming them?_

I await your response.


----------



## Created2Write

I voted yes because it was the choice that most closely resembled my opinions. If a husband and wife agree to using porn and neither is being disrespected, then I don't think there is an issue between the two of them. However, I do find porn tasteless and personifies the idea that women are only good for one thing: the physical satisfaction of the man, even at the woman's expense. Therefore I consider porn, like prostitution, to be horrible, immoral lifestyles that we should discourage. So while I think husbands and wive's can enjoy porn together without harming their relationship, I don't think they should watch it all. 

And that's all I have to say.


----------



## Happyfamily

committed4ever said:


> 1. Porn is demeaning to women.


lol. I see this asserted by people that can't explain to me why. So go ahead.

I did a calendar shoot when I was in college. It featured women from our athletic conference. It was quite the ego boost. I don't have the body I did back then after two kids. But I have no jealousy or envy for the women being featured now. I know how thrilled they are when they are the one who was selected out of that loooooooong line of applicants. 

I do of course see the ridiculous assertion that if you do a calendar shoot then by way of magic you have been reduced to "nothing more" than a pin-up girl, ie nothing more than hot.  Sort of like walking the stage to get my engineering degree made me "nothing more" than a machine that can do fourier transformations. Marrying my husband made me "nothing more" than a wife. Having children made me "nothing more" than a mother. Etc.


----------



## EleGirl

Happyfamily said:


> lol. I see this asserted by people that can't explain to me why. So go ahead.
> 
> I did a calendar shoot when I was in college. It featured women from our athletic conference. It was quite the ego boost. I don't have the body I did back then after two kids. But I have no jealousy or envy for the women being featured now. I know how thrilled they are when they are the one who was selected out of that loooooooong line of applicants.
> 
> I do of course see the ridiculous assertion that if you do a calendar shoot then by way of magic you have been reduced to "nothing more" than a pin-up girl, ie nothing more than hot.  Sort of like walking the stage to get my engineering degree made me "nothing more" than a machine that can do fourier transformations. Marrying my husband made me "nothing more" than a wife. Having children made me "nothing more" than a mother. Etc.


I assume that you had some clothing on in the calendar shoot.

It's ridiculous to compare a college calendar shoot to porn in which a woman is used sexually is every way that men can imagin. and every inch of her body is explored by the camera.


----------



## EleGirl

committed4ever said:


> 1. Porn is demeaning to women.





Happyfamily said:


> lol. I see this asserted by people that can't explain to me why. So go ahead.


Some of the most popular forms of porn on the internet are more than "demeaning". For example a lot of the life peep show types of porn where a girl (yes she's usually under aged) is online and the view can pay to view her doing sexual things....These are usually young girls who are forced into sex slavery. 

Is that demeaning and exploitative enough to count?


----------



## lifeistooshort

I think a good sniff test is whether you would be ok with your daughter doing whatever type of porn you find acceptable if you knew she'd made her own choice. I almost included wife, but I understand the added issue of marital vows there so we'll leave wives out of it. If so I can respect that, but there is something very hypocritical and phony about someone willing to get off to someone else's daughter but having a problem with others getting off to their daughter.

This is something i've seen my hb struggle with now that his daughter is a beautiful young woman. I can say that while he's seen his share of porn he is not ok with the idea of his daughter doing it. Why is that if women have agency and it's not at all demeaning or harmful?

Viewpoints often change when someone has a personal stake in something, so I'd very much like to hear from someone that thinks porn is not harmful how they would feel about their daughter doing it, and knowing their friends might get off to said daughter. If you're ok with that you have my deepest respect for your consistency.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> Some of the most popular forms of porn on the internet are more than "demeaning". For example a lot of the life peep show types of porn where a girl (yes she's usually under aged) is online and the view can pay to view her doing sexual things....These are usually young girls who are forced into sex slavery.
> 
> Is that demeaning and exploitative enough to count?


I don't think we can or should lump illegal, child pornography with mainstream porn where consenting adults do their stuff / sell their kink.

In fact any adult person who can't differentiate between an 11 yr old child and an adult chatting online, whether via a webcam or instant messaging, deserves to be locked up, firstly on the basis of their stupidity, and then on the basis of their perversion.

Sometime ago I did a thread on that here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/146226-lolita-urge.html


And my thoughts remain the same.

The premise of this thread is mainstream , LEGAL porn that is registered in accordance to the FBI laws.

If my memory serves me right, at the begining of every porn DVD, there is a written notice exclusively for the FBI,giving the registration # and the records of the ages and dates of births of the actors.

At the bottom of every porn website, there is similar info.
Those are put there by law.
That is what makes prosecution possible.
Anyone who pretends not to know that he is viewing/has in his possesion underage porn , or trafficked girls is lying.


----------



## EleGirl

lifeistooshort said:


> I think a good sniff test is whether you would be ok with your daughter doing whatever type of porn you find acceptable if you knew she'd made her own choice. I almost included wife, but I understand the added issue of marital vows there so we'll leave wives out of it.


I think that including a man’s wife in this test… just is the man ok with marrying a woman who was in the porn industry prior to their dating and subsequent marriage. 



lifeistooshort said:


> If so I can respect that, but there is something very hypocritical and phony about someone willing to get off to someone else's daughter but having a problem with others getting off to their daughter.


This is what bothers me. I would not be ok with my daughter or son being in the porn industry even with it being a choice. There is too much down side for those who are in the industry.


----------



## EleGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't think we can or should lump illegal, child pornography with mainstream porn where consenting adults do their stuff / sell their kink.
> 
> In fact any adult person who can't differentiate between an 11 yr old child and an adult chatting online, whether via a webcam or instant messaging, deserves to be locked up, firstly on the basis of their stupidity, and then on the basis of their perversion.
> 
> Sometime ago I did a thread on that here:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/146226-lolita-urge.html
> 
> 
> And my thoughts remain the same.
> 
> The premise of this thread is mainstream , LEGAL porn that is registered in accordance to the FBI laws.


How does a person tell the difference?

Some of the sites that use girls pressed into sex slavery use girls in their teens. A 15 year old girl made up the right way can be very hard to tell apart from a young adult woman.

From what I have read, it is almost impossible for internet porn viewers to know whether or not the woman in the porn is consenting or pressed into participating in the porn.


----------



## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> I think that including a man’s wife in this test… just is the man ok with marrying a woman who was in the porn industry prior to their dating and subsequent marriage.
> 
> 
> This is what bothers me. I would not be ok with my daughter or son being in the porn industry even with it being a choice. There is too much down side for those who are in the industry.


I had a good discussion with a guy on TAM a while back, he viewed lots of porn, and he was ok with his daughter doing it if that's what she wanted. He said he'd worry about it having other consequences for her, like it causing her issues later in life (think teacher in Kentucky that was fired when her porn past came to light). But he could accept her choice. He was in the minority of that discussion; most declared that porn was their right, but their daughter would not be doing it and how dare I suggest they were hypocrites. First guy had my respect, everyone else was a full of sheet phony.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> How does a person tell the difference?


Simple.

How do you know the difference between a diet Coke and a regular Coke?

How do you know a movie is appropriate for your 12 yr old girl?

Read the label.

If you are a consumer of porn, then the same rule applies like with all other consumer goods.


If something doesn't look appropriate to you then don't consume it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> I think that including a man’s wife in this test… just is the man ok with marrying a woman who was in the porn industry prior to their dating and subsequent marriage.
> 
> 
> This is what bothers me. I would not be ok with my daughter or son being in the porn industry even with it being a choice. There is too much down side for those who are in the industry.


Would you be ok with your son or daughter becoming a low paid sanitation worker?

But you put your trash out every morning expecting that it would be removed

How would you feel if your kid worked in a garment factory for under $US 2.00 / day?

But you still purchase and wear clothes made in Bangladesh , China or Asia.

So we could say that the person who consumes legal porn is a hypocrite because he wouldn't want his kids working in porn. But they could also point fingers at us , because we wear clothing manufactured under worse conditions.

And the list goes on.

This is what makes morality subjective, and that's why we can only decide what's right for ourselves.


----------



## EleGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Simple.
> 
> How do you know the difference between a diet Coke and a regular Coke?
> 
> How do you know a movie is appropriate for your 12 yr old girl?
> 
> Read the label.
> 
> If you are a consumer of porn, then the same rule applies like with all other consumer goods.
> 
> 
> If something doesn't look appropriate to you then don't consume it.


Porn sites don't have labels stating that they follow US law (or some other law) do they?

Just because a site looks legitimate, it does not mean that the women in the site are not being forced to engage in the porn. I'm not saying that all women are. I know that this is not true. But there is no way of knowing the difference.


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> Would you be ok with your son or daughter becoming a low paid sanitation worker?
> 
> But you put your trash out every morning expecting that it would be removed
> 
> How would you feel if your kid worked in a garment factory for under $US 2.00 / day?
> 
> But you still purchase and wear clothes made in Bangladesh , China or Asia.


But that's why we have awareness campaigns, right? If we don't know the conditions under which clothing is made, we would not even know to try to change it.

All social change begins with awareness, I think.

Not being able to do _everything _doesn't mean we cannot do _anything._


----------



## EleGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Would you be ok with your son or daughter becoming a low paid sanitation worker?
> But you put your trash out every morning expecting that it would be removed


I would be upset if my child did work that was below their capabilities… that is intellectual, physical and mental/emotional.
If by child liked being a sanitation worker that that was what they could handle, then I would not be upset about it.

If my son, who is getting his degree, worked as a sanitation worker while going through college to help support himself, I would applaud him.
My step daughter work as a maid in one of those maid services for a while to help support her college. She also worked as at a car wash. I applaud her.


Caribbean Man said:


> How would you feel if your kid worked in a garment factory for under $US 2.00 / day?
> 
> But you still purchase and wear clothes made in Bangladesh , China or Asia.
> 
> So we could say that the person who consumes legal porn is a hypocrite because he wouldn't want his kids working in porn. But they could also point fingers at us , because we wear clothing manufactured under worse conditions.


I agree that most people in the USA and other developed countries are hypocrites because of this very thing. One of the political issues that has my attention is that our government is allowing products produced by slave, near-slave and child labor to be imported in the USA. There is little that the average citizen can do about it except to become aware of the problem and keep trying to get our government to change the laws.



Caribbean Man said:


> This is what makes morality subjective, and that's why we can only decide what's right for ourselves.


 Yes, morality is subjective. This is especially true today. Yes, each person can decide what is right for themselves.

Many, if not most of us, struggle with moral gray areas that can be very confusing to put it mildly. Openly discussing those helps as we can all share our thoughts about it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> Porn sites don't have labels stating that they follow US law (or some other law) do they?
> 
> Yes. At the bottom of every page. Google any porn site and scroll to the bottom. If you don't see that notice at the bottom, it's illegal. That's US govt. regulations.
> 
> I suspect that the illegal sites might be hosted outside of the USA, so that people who want to view that type of content would have to know exactly where to search.
> The US regulations are very strict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because a site looks legitimate, it does not mean that the women in the site are not being forced to engage in the porn. I'm not saying that all women are. I know that this is not true. But there is no way of knowing the difference.
> 
> Yes , there is a way of knowing the difference.
> 
> There are many different genres and types of porn. For instance , I've read that there is user submitted porn where people, mostly older folks, film themselves having sex and submit it to websites and get paid for it.
> I also know for certain that there are swinger type websites/ forums where people exchange pics and vids. All a person has to do is join.
> And the list goes on and on.
> Many different types to suit whatever fancy.
> I know for certain that there are some local swinger groups in our country that have their own websites / forums catering mostly for Caribbean and Latin people


----------



## jaharthur

EleGirl said:


> How does a person tell the difference?
> 
> Some of the sites that use girls pressed into sex slavery use girls in their teens. A 15 year old girl made up the right way can be very hard to tell apart from a young adult woman.
> 
> From what I have read, it is almost impossible for internet porn viewers to know whether or not the woman in the porn is consenting or pressed into participating in the porn.


Various law enforcement agencies are out looking for this at all times. Nobody reputable approves of this and it's a minority of troubled folks who look for it. They are and should be prosecuted.


----------



## ReformedHubby

lifeistooshort said:


> I think a good sniff test is whether you would be ok with your daughter doing whatever type of porn you find acceptable if you knew she'd made her own choice. I almost included wife, but I understand the added issue of marital vows there so we'll leave wives out of it. If so I can respect that, but there is something very hypocritical and phony about someone willing to get off to someone else's daughter but having a problem with others getting off to their daughter.
> 
> This is something i've seen my hb struggle with now that his daughter is a beautiful young woman. I can say that while he's seen his share of porn he is not ok with the idea of his daughter doing it. Why is that if women have agency and it's not at all demeaning or harmful?
> 
> Viewpoints often change when someone has a personal stake in something, so I'd very much like to hear from someone that thinks porn is not harmful how they would feel about their daughter doing it, and knowing their friends might get off to said daughter. If you're ok with that you have my deepest respect for your consistency.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This doesn't work for me. There are all kinds of occupations (not just sexual) that I feel my kids are too good for. That doesn't mean I don't think they are acceptable for someone else who wants to do them.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I think the posters who have concern for the women in the industry have the best of intentions, but I don't think they realize that most of these women don't want or need to be rescued. I'm not sure there would be that many takers if you tried to save these girls. If anything they'd probably think you're judging them. 

You've got a mix of girls that are doing porn because they want to and those that are doing it because they are damaged. Neither is rescuable. Ever tried to talk sense into an alcoholic or drug addict. Its a waste of time.


----------



## Ripper

ReformedHubby said:


> You've got a mix of girls that are doing porn because they want to and those that are doing it because they are damaged. Neither is rescuable. Ever tried to talk sense into an alcoholic or drug addict. Its a waste of time.


This.

Some regret it later, others wear it like a badge of honor. Nobody can save you from yourself.


----------



## Happyfamily

EleGirl said:


> I assume that you had some clothing on in the calendar shoot.


Topless. Bikini bottom and boots. At least, the one they eventually put in the calendar. I did a few with no bottom, but not showing my tush. That was the publisher's rule for the shoot. 





> It's ridiculous to compare a college calendar shoot to porn in which a woman is used sexually is every way that men can imagin. and every inch of her body is explored by the camera.


The statement was an unqualified "porn demeans women". You've already acknowledged what I did wasn't demeaning. All of us dreamed of a Playboy shoot. NOBODY would have turned that down. 

I was on the field hockey team, and in that environment you meet a greater concentration of lesbians, who are only too happy to leer at the kind of porn you think is "demeaning" and strictly a man's thing. 

I disagree that the people against my freedom of choice have the best intentions. Even the most limited of intentions would mean that they consider my preferences and also not assume I am some kind of broken person. It is also clear to me that it is the puritanical harassment that parents are worried about, as opposed to the act of posing nude that is the problem. Parents don't want their kids to be the only open Christians in a town full of Jihadi crazies, but it is because the Jihadi crazies are the problem, not being a Christian.


----------



## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> I think the posters who have concern for the women in the industry have the best of intentions, but I don't think they realize that most of these women don't want or need to be rescued. I'm not sure there would be that many takers if you tried to save these girls. If anything they'd probably think you're judging them.
> 
> You've got a mix of girls that are doing porn because they want to and those that are doing it because they are damaged. Neither is rescuable. Ever tried to talk sense into an alcoholic or drug addict. Its a waste of time.


A lot of truth there, RH.

I think the point of the activists here (maybe they don't see themselves as activists, but I think they are filling that role, generally speaking) is to raise awareness. I have learned things about porn in some of the threads on TAM that I did not know before.

Dh and I watched part of a hard core porn film in the late 90s in France. They are actually on late night public TV there. I had never seen one and was curious.

And after watching part of one, I felt sick. It's not for us. Definitely not for me. It has taken years for those images to fade in my mind.

I don't think the activists here, or anywhere, expect to convince everyone. And I doubt that the women involved in creating porn are the people that they are trying to convince at all. It is the customers they are trying to reach.

Do you remember what SA said once about her husband, that he told her that if people did not buy this product, it would not be produced? The activists are trying to raise the consciousness of the consumers.

I think Happyfamily brings a perspective that not all of us consider. I would not have thought of the things she said, that it is coveted to be part of a Playboy shoot. It is good that she shares her viewpoint, because that raises consciousness, too. It shows the view of someone on, to some extent, the inside.

I have certainly learned from listening to various sides of this debate. I don't really like thinking about some of these things. I was following the blog of a woman working with sex workers in India for a while. So depressing. Young women brought up in the sex trade, uninterested in getting out because it was what they knew. 

Eventually I just stopped reading. Doesn't mean it is not all still going on. I think the activists are targeting people like me, too, people who are all too willing to say, Hey, it's beyond me, I think I'll go clean my house now.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ReformedHubby said:


> This doesn't work for me. There are all kinds of occupations (not just sexual) that I feel my kids are too good for. That doesn't mean I don't think they are acceptable for someone else who wants to do them.


You make a fair point and I can understand why you'd feel this way. I guess for me it hinges on why you wouldn't want your daughter doing porn; if it's because you simply think she's capable of better that's one thing. Let's face it: how much intelligence does it really take to have sex on camera? Not much.

If it's because you find the thought of her doing porn inherently demeaning and disgusting, that's what I'm talking about. I think my sons can do better then being garbagemen for a living, but it's not because I think picking up garbage is demeaning; quite the contrary, it's an honest living and is necessary. And it can pay pretty well. But it doesn't necessarily take a lot of intelligence to do it, and my two boys are very, very smart (I know I"m their mom but it's not just me that sees it). In that sense I think they can do better, and people that aren't quite as smart or just aren't college material need well paying jobs too. But if they were to become garbagemen I wouldn't be ashamed to tell anyone that, I'd just be disappointed their intelligence wasn't being fully utilized.

I can tell you that my husband would be ashamed to tell people his daughter did porn (if that's what she did of course) because he would find that demeaning and disgusting. And she's very intelligent, and as such is doing something that requires a high amount of it and gets paid well. Most people aren't capable of getting through the schooling she did to do what she does.

That's not to say porn stars are necessarily stupid. I saw an interview with Jenna Jameson and was impressed by how intelligent she was, but she's an outlier in that she's built her own multi million dollar business. I still think the industry is disgusting but she and her family own what she does so I respect that. That's where I was trying to go with this. If you wouldn't mind your friends knowing your daughter did porn but would feel disappointed because she could do better, I respect that. If the thought is inherently disgusting to you I think that's something else.


----------



## ReformedHubby

lifeistooshort said:


> You make a fair point and I can understand why you'd feel this way. I guess for me it hinges on why you wouldn't want your daughter doing porn; if it's because you simply think she's capable of better that's one thing. Let's face it: how much intelligence does it really take to have sex on camera? Not much.
> 
> If it's because you find the thought of her doing porn inherently demeaning and disgusting, that's what I'm talking about. I think my sons can do better then being garbagemen for a living, but it's not because I think picking up garbage is demeaning; quite the contrary, it's an honest living and is necessary. And it can pay pretty well. But it doesn't necessarily take a lot of intelligence to do it, and my two boys are very, very smart (I know I"m their mom but it's not just me that sees it). In that sense I think they can do better, and people that aren't quite as smart or just aren't college material need well paying jobs too. But if they were to become garbagemen I wouldn't be ashamed to tell anyone that, I'd just be disappointed their intelligence wasn't being fully utilized.
> 
> I can tell you that my husband would be ashamed to tell people his daughter did porn (if that's what she did of course) because he would find that demeaning and disgusting. And she's very intelligent, and as such is doing something that requires a high amount of it and gets paid well. Most people aren't capable of getting through the schooling she did to do what she does.
> 
> That's not to say porn stars are necessarily stupid. I saw an interview with Jenna Jameson and was impressed by how intelligent she was, but she's an outlier in that she's built her own multi million dollar business. I still think the industry is disgusting but she and her family own what she does so I respect that. That's where I was trying to go with this.


The garbageman reference was thought provoking. I wouldn't want her doing it because I know she is capable of much more. But...I would also feel that I failed somehow as a father if she chose that path. Real men keep their daughters from becoming porn actresses and strippers. I just don't believe its a profession that most well adjusted people would choose to enter. 

Regarding Jenna Jameson, lately its become very obvious that she has an addiction problem. Past demons perhaps?


----------



## lifeistooshort

ReformedHubby said:


> The garbageman reference was thought provoking. I wouldn't want her doing it because I know she is capable of much more. But...I would also feel that I failed somehow as a father if she chose that path. Real men keep their daughters from becoming porn actresses and strippers. I just don't believe its a profession that most well adjusted people would choose to enter.
> 
> Regarding Jenna Jameson, lately its become very obvious that she has an addiction problem. Past demons perhaps?



Is that because you feel that all porn stars are damaged? So if you'd done your job as a father they wouldn't be damaged and thus wouldn't do porn? I hate to make sweeping generalizations but sometimes they're warranted, so if we think they're damaged then that suggests porn is demeaning and the only reason they'd do it is because they're damaged. It is thought provoking.....

I had a strong father that I was very close to and I never felt the need to have male attention. Of course I was interested in men and wanted to get married and have a family, but I would've never gotten into stripping or porn because I found it to be trashy. And I would tell you that I did have the body to do it; I'm 40 with two kids now and my body is still pretty good. Maybe not quite what it was 20 years ago but still pretty tight. I wonder how many porn stars had a strong father and what we'd consider a reasonably normal home life? I would think there are at least a few and it would be interesting to know their reasons.

I've no doubt Jenna Jameson has addiction problems (she also has too much plastic surgery problems, she looks a little strange these days), I imagine they're quite pervasive in the industry. But in fairness a lot of models/supermodels have addiction problems as well (people need help to live on a piece of cheese a day) as well as a lot of mainstream celebrities. Yet nobody is ashamed of their daughter being a model or actress; porn is unique in that regard because of our attitudes about sex. I'd also like to add that Jenna Jameson is 3 days younger than me.....she's April 9, 1974 and I'm April 6, 1974.

I appreciate your honest discussion here, in general I find your posts to be some of the more thoughtful on the site even if I don't always agree.


----------



## ReformedHubby

lifeistooshort said:


> Is that because you feel that all porn stars are damaged? So if you'd done your job as a father they wouldn't be damaged and thus wouldn't do porn? I hate to make sweeping generalizations but sometimes they're warranted, so if we think they're damaged then that suggests porn is demeaning and the only reason they'd do it is because they're damaged. It is thought provoking.....


I try not to play arm chair psychologist but I do think our origins can greatly influence who we become. I would be interested to know how many of the young ladies in the adult industry had lousy, absent, or abusive fathers. I'd bet the number would be fairly high. Just my opinion but I think this would factor into it way more than the economics.


----------



## ocotillo

Happyfamily said:


> Topless. Bikini bottom and boots. At least, the one they eventually put in the calendar. I did a few with no bottom, but not showing my tush. That was the publisher's rule for the shoot.


What actually constitutes pornography became a bone of contention in my family, because my youngest majored in art history, eventually got her Master's and took a position in a museum on the East Coast.

While she was still living at home, she would sometimes leave textbooks out. One in particular was a history of the depiction of the human form through the ages. My wife's ultra conservative Christian family labeled it as pornographic, while clucking and wagging their heads in my direction.

"Pornography" differs from words like, Erotic, Suggestive, Stimulating, Arousing, Alluring, etc., which all describe a subjective mental state. Pornography describes a finite thing with fairly objective linguistic, legal and literary definitions. And it is by definition, sexually explicit and/or obscene. 

Pornography can be depicted in the first person, but it doesn't really sound like the calendar you describe was actually pornographic.


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## Happyfamily

ocotillo said:


> Pornography can be depicted in the first person, but it doesn't really sound like the calendar you describe was actually pornographic.


Pornography:

"printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings."

People are wanting to change the definition according to their agenda. What I did was pornography, period. 

I spent three hours a day training to have the body they wanted in that calendar. A LOT of distance running and wind sprints. I was somewhat careful about my diet but exercising that much makes it nearly impossible to gain weight. 

This is something I am not seeing acknowledged here. ALL models put a tremendous amount of work into their profession. I had almost no experience in posing. Each woman has to adjust according to their body type. I had very muscular thighs, which meant I had to concentrate on not allowing my thighs to touch each other in any particular pose. You just try to smile provocatively while your body is twisted and you are keeping track of hand placement, head position, elbows, and for me not letting my thighs touch. 

Reading the kinds of comments I see here has strengthened my resolve about my feelings on this and made me more proud of myself. When you are on a sports team you get to thinking that everyone else is getting up at 6am for a five mile run in addition to afternoon practice and carrying a full academic load. Looking back now, and being a stay at home mom with kids... I am no longer the athlete I was and it shows. 

lol. But there are some basics in posing I picked up that can still get my husband's attention. It isn't just taking your clothes off.


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## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> What actually constitutes pornography became a bone of contention in my family, because my youngest majored in art history, eventually got her Master's and took a position in a museum on the East Coast.
> 
> While she was still living at home, she would sometimes leave textbooks out. One in particular was a history of the depiction of the human form through the ages. My wife's ultra conservative Christian family labeled it as pornographic, while clucking and wagging their heads in my direction.
> 
> "Pornography" differs from words like, Erotic, Suggestive, Stimulating, Arousing, Alluring, etc., which all describe a subjective mental state. Pornography describes a finite thing with fairly objective linguistic, legal and literary definitions. And it is by definition, sexually explicit and/or obscene.
> 
> Pornography can be depicted in the first person, but it doesn't really sound like the calendar you describe was actually pornographic.


And I think that is part of the problem here.

Too much generalizations on every side.

There are a few women and at least one man on this thread that would say erotic photography is porn because it's degrading to women.
I remember being on another thread sometime ago where a poster contended that swimsuit photography was degrading to women .

I think that type of rationale is a bit extreme.


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## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> I remember being on another thread sometime ago where a poster contended that swimsuit photography was degrading to women .


I worked with a woman many years ago who lived in Spain with her husband in the early 70s. The husband told us that he went into the office there one day and saw all the men huddled around a magazine. He went to investigate.

They were looking at a centerfold of a Spanish men's magazine -- and it was all women in swimsuits! 

Pretty racy in Franco's Spain, I guess.


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## ocotillo

Happyfamily said:


> People are wanting to change the definition according to their agenda.


I could not agree more, which is why these discussion often derail. Some are talking about the depiction of the most obscene, raunchy, degrading, depraved acts imaginable while others are talking about simple nudity or even possibly _Maxim_ or _Sports Illustrated_ styles of photography.

There is a tendency in common speech to bastardize the word into a general term for anything that is pleasing to the eye, especially in the context of concupiscence. This leads to ridiculous terms like, "Earth porn" which basically means a beautiful landscape.

The godawful online version of the OED notwithstanding, most college level lexical works support what I've said:

"Obscene writings, drawings photographs or the like especially those have little or no artistic merit." --_Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language_

"Obscene literature, art or photography especially that having little or no artistic merit." --_The Random House Dictionary of the English Language_

"Obscene literature, paintings, photographs, etc. intended to cause sexual arousal || The treatment of obscene subjects in art." --_Webster's New Lexicon Dictionary of the English Language_

"Sexually explicit pictures, writings or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal." --_The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language_

"Literature in which prostitutes figure; obscene writings." _The New Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language_​
The last definition here is probably truest to the etymology of the word and historical usage of its various cognates. The English word came to us around the 1860's from the French _pornographie,_ which ultimately derived from the Greek, πορνογραφος. (pornographos) It's a compound word formed by fusing the feminine noun πόρνη (Prostitute) with the infinitive, γράφειν (to write) and literally meant "Writings of prostitutes."

Unlike Greek terms of recent origin like "photograph" this is a real, bonafide ancient word that was used in speech. It described sexually explicit stories produced for prurient entertainment and had nothing directly to do either with nudity or the depiction of the human form in art. In contrast to Western society in the post Victorian era, the Greeks were not prudes when it came to the human body.

In this thread, you're probably the only who knows for sure if the calendar you've described is pornographic, but it really sounds like you're describing simple nudity which may or may not constitute pornography depending upon what the model is actually doing in the picture.


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## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> I worked with a woman many years ago who lived in Spain with her husband in the early 70s. The husband told us that he went into the office there one day and saw all the men huddled around a magazine. He went to investigate.
> 
> They were looking at a centerfold of a Spanish men's magazine -- and it was all women in swimsuits!
> 
> Pretty racy in Franco's Spain, I guess.


When I was in high school around 15 or 16 yrs old, I remember one afternoon, during History class some of the guys were passing around a men's magazine , with topless models whilst the teacher , who belonged to a kind of Pentecostal Christian church ,was at her desk.
She was an ultra religious woman.

Well somehow , she figured out something was up because we were giggling.
She walked to be back and a guy tried to hid the mag, but failed. She asked to see it and when she saw the topless women in it she began shrieking , ripping the book apart as if the book was possessed and calling us and the guy sick perverts.
We swore she was having a panic attack although the pics were ONLY of topless WOMEN.

She sent us by the guidance counselor, [a woman ], because she determined that we needed help to break us free of the
"_evils of pornography_."
She was literally trembling with rage as she spoke.

The guidance counselor however, was much different. She simply told us that it was normal for guys or age , but that material was inappropriate for school.
Then she starts asking us about grades, girlfriends, relationship with parents and all that mundane type of stuff.

When I sat the final exams later that year, I got a distinction in history.
Whenever I look at a documentary about Hernand Cortez and the Spanish Inquisition , I remember that incident and laugh.


----------



## RandomDude

Can't get anymore manly than this!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Simply put: would you want your daughter in the porn industry. If yes, go ahead and watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikita2270

> Simply put: would you want your daughter in the porn industry. If yes, go ahead and watch.


I wouldn't want to watch my daughter work at Target...but I still shop there.

I get your point...there is some exploitive porn and its hard to tell which is which with all the human trafficking going on.

But there are also women who actively choose to work in the porn industry and have gotten rich doing so.

The sex industry has been around as long as the creation of currency. Its definitely not for everyone but there is a market for it and in reality its normal for humans to want to see other humans having sex.

In my opinion, as long as you aren't doing anything illegal, exploitive or dangerous...people's sexual preferences are private and personal. The only person you should work this stuff out with is your life partner.


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## Caribbean Man

Nikita2270 said:


> I wouldn't want to watch my daughter work at Target...but I still shop there.
> 
> I get your point...there is some exploitive porn and its hard to tell which is which with all the human trafficking going on.
> 
> But there are also women who actively choose to work in the porn industry and have gotten rich doing so.
> 
> The sex industry has been around as long as the creation of currency. Its definitely not for everyone but there is a market for it and in reality its normal for humans to want to see other humans having sex.
> 
> In my opinion, as long as you aren't doing anything illegal, exploitive or dangerous...people's sexual preferences are private and personal. The only person you should work this stuff out with is your life partner.


:iagree:

Perfectly stated in my opinion.

Just like to add one thing, sex has always been given in exchange for something. Even long before currency , it was exchanged for food and shelter.

And secondly , there are very few industries, if any at all that aren't exploitative. 
Just like we can decide to use products that are recyclable or biodegradable to help save the earth , we can decide not to consume porn , or we can decide only to purchase a certain type ,if it suits our morality.

Using a non biodegradable or non recyclable product doesn't make you a bad person , we all do to a great extent , everyday. Neither does deciding to only ride a bicycle as your main mode of transport make you morally superior.

Balance and personal responsibility is the key.


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## SurpriseMyself

Caribbean Man said:


> Just like to add one thing, sex has always been given in exchange for something. Even long before currency , it was exchanged for food and shelter.


Wow. Nice. I don't even know what to say to this. Sorry, TAM men and women, but the truth is brutal. Get used to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

ebp123 said:


> Wow. Nice. I don't even know what to say to this. Sorry, TAM men and women, but the truth is brutal. Get used to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why homeless people, mendicants and street dwellers don't get laid.


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## SurpriseMyself

If sex is currency, should I ask what it will "cost" to have my car repaired or pay my mortgage? What act do I need to perform in exchange for college tuition or my kids preschool. Because that is what porn is. We just add a layer in between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

ebp123 said:


> If sex is currency, should I ask what it will "cost" to have my car repaired or pay my mortgage? What act do I need to perform in exchange for college tuition or my kids preschool. Because that is what porn is. We just add a layer in between.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If your husband, for no legitimate reason, decided to stop contributing his share of money to the running of the household, would you still want to have regular sex with him?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Caribbean Man said:


> If your husband, for no legitimate reason, decided to stop contributing his share of money to the running of the household, would you still want to have regular sex with him?


That is a respect issue. I don't have sex with men I don't respect. And by your logic, women who work are allowed to have sex less often because they contribute financially. Women who don't work outside the home better make up for their lack of monetary contribution with sexual deeds. Basically you are justifying women using sex as a bargaining chip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

And what exactly makes you respect a man enough to have sex with him , if he has absolutely nothing to offer you except a temporarily turgid organ?


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## SurpriseMyself

Caribbean Man said:


> And what exactly makes you respect a man enough to have sex with him , if he has absolutely nothing to offer you except a temporarily turgid organ?


I posted in another thread this exact thing. Will try to remember all I said:

Integrity, honesty, compassion. Enthusiasm, optimism, confidence. Energy, willingness to try new things.

I also find it telling that you use the phrase "absolutely nothing to offer" if he's not working. Now, if he's not doing anything--not helping around the house, with the kids, not working--then he truly isn't offering anything. But I think you meant $ when you said he's not offering me anything. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn

if real men don't watch porn then real women don't need romance novels,dildos,vibarators,

Listen if your a man who don't like a woman using toys,romance novels,etc then make it a boundry

If you a woman who don't like their man using porn then also make it a boundry.

which means if you find out they do then walk and don't look back. telling someone not to use porn because if makes you feel bad isn't going to motivate a man or a woman who has used porn/toy etc to all of the sudden say ok I'm never going to use it again.

espically if your not a romantic guy or a very inhibited woman.

some men/women don't like to give oral so as a result the men and woman who desire oral fantysize about it. or use porn to get the experiance( not that its the same but well its better than nothing)


so to all the guys and gals who are with holding something sexual from their partner realise this that they still desire it (most likley way more then you think) and to say I don't suck c*ck and expect your man not to spank the monkey to some thin georgous women giving head like its her last meal then I say you just fooling yourself. and to all the guys who refuse to put some effort into being romantic etc. also realise that they are rubbing there pu$$y thinking about some slick Rich know just what to say to get her wetter than a slip and slide. while your spanking it to fake women she rubbing it to fake unrealistic men.

wouldn't it be nice to just try to meet eachothers needs.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

chillymorn said:


> wouldn't it be nice to just try to meet eachothers needs.


Absolutely! It would also be nice if the men on TAM who are struggling with their wives not wanting sex would be given the sage advice that you should meet her needs and then she will meet yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo

ebp123 said:


> Absolutely! It would also be nice if the men on TAM who are struggling with their wives not wanting sex would be given the sage advice that you should meet her needs and then she will meet yours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people simply do not grasp the idea of reciprocity and view the entire concept as a turn-off.


----------



## chillymorn

ebp123 said:


> Absolutely! It would also be nice if the men on TAM who are struggling with their wives not wanting sex would be given the sage advice that you should meet her needs and then she will meet yours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think most reasonable people man or woman who are in a relationship that is lacking have tried this. The real problem is when your trying and the other is stubborn/selfish/controlling.


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## SurpriseMyself

chillymorn said:


> I think most reasonable people man or woman who are in a relationship that is lacking have tried this. The real problem is when your trying and the other is stubborn/selfish/controlling.


I would hope, although if the problem truly is that one person is selfish, stubborn or controlling, there's not much that can be done to save the marriage. People rarely change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself

ocotillo said:


> Some people simply do not grasp the idea of reciprocity and view the entire concept as a turn-off.


I guess it depends on what you feel is important you give and receive. The earlier argument in this thread seemed very old school and sad to me. You give me sex and I bring home the bacon and let you have some of it. I can't get on board with that. I can get on board with you meet my emotional needs and I meet your physical needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

ebp123 said:


> I guess it depends on what you feel is important you give and receive. The earlier argument in this thread seemed very old school and sad to me. You give me sex and I bring home the bacon and let you have some of it. I can't get on board with that. I can get on board with you meet my emotional needs and I meet your physical needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I suppose you _only_ have emotional needs and he_ only_ has physical needs?

See what I did there^^^?


----------



## chillymorn

ebp123 said:


> Absolutely! It would also be nice if the men on TAM who are struggling with their wives not wanting sex would be given the sage advice that you should meet her needs and then she will meet yours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well as a man who has been on here for a while I can say that is what most say.

but I find it interesting in the way you worded it. Men should meet the womans needs and THEN she will meet his. why not the other way around? or better yet why not try to meet eachothers needs at the same time?

and the bus goes round and round.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

chillymorn said:


> well as a man who has been on here for a while I can say that if what most say.
> 
> but I find it interesting in the way you worded it. Men should meet the womans needs and THEN she will meet his. why not the other way around? or better yet why not try to meet eachothers needs at the same time?
> 
> and the bus goes round and round.


My personal rule is always start off meeting the persons needs to the best of your ability. Do frequent wellness checks with the person to make sure they don't need something different or more. Clearly communicate your needs to them and give them the opportunity to meet your needs. Tweak both sides as needed.


----------



## chillymorn

ebp123 said:


> I guess it depends on what you feel is important you give and receive. The earlier argument in this thread seemed very old school and sad to me. You give me sex and I bring home the bacon and let you have some of it. I can't get on board with that. I can get on board with you meet my emotional needs and I meet your physical needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


then don't take any of the bacon!

say hey I can make my own bacon and you can wash your own cloths. but to say I want to start a family and be a sahm and then say I don't go for this you make the bacon and I have to put out bullcrap seems like the bacon earner is already meeting you emational needs. meaning the being a mom and starting a family is more for the wife/woman than the husband at leats it was with most of my male friends. None of my male friends ever expressed a strong desire to become parents. they wern't opposed to it but the emotional women they were married to were the one pushing for it.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

chillymorn said:


> well as a man who has been on here for a while I can say that if what most say.
> 
> but I find it interesting in the way you worded it. Men should meet the womans needs and THEN she will meet his. why not the other way around? or better yet why not try to meet eachothers needs at the same time?
> 
> and the bus goes round and round.


 Because people can meet each other's physical needs and not be in love. It's certainly not a requirement. But a woman can't have her emotional needs met by someone she's not in love with. And she won't be in love with you for long if she feels she has to have sex with you for you to love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

If my DH didn't have piv with me or have some other form of sexual intimacy other than piv,assuming there are no health issues,I would have trouble feeling love toward him and feeling loved by him.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

chillymorn said:


> then don't take any of the bacon!
> 
> say hey I can make my own bacon and you can wash your own cloths. but to say I want to start a family and be a sahm and then say I don't go for this you make the bacon and I have to put out bullcrap seems like the bacon earner is already meeting you emational needs. meaning the being a mom and starting a family is more for the wife/woman than the husband at leats it was with most of my male friends. None of my male friends ever expressed a strong desire to become parents. they wern't opposed to it but the emotional women they were married to were the one pushing for it.


One reason I bring in my own bacon. Never want to feel like I gotta put out because you put a roof over my head. And if a man is "meh" on having kids, then why have them? Just stay single and play the field.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

ScarletBegonias said:


> If my DH didn't have piv with me or have some other form of sexual intimacy other than piv,assuming there are no health issues,I would have trouble feeling love toward him and feeling loved by him.


If he ignored you until it was time to have sex, is that ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ebp123 said:


> If he ignored you until it was time to have sex, is that ok?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well I would have to ask myself what behaviors have I been exhibiting toward him? Then I would have to ask him what are his reasons for ignoring me other than for sex? If he has valid reasons then yeah,he'd be justified in behaving that way until I got my act together.

If he has no reasons other than he's just that kinda man well I wouldn't have been with him in the first place...been there.done that.Learned how to spot those guys and stopped thinking I can change them into a better man.


----------



## ocotillo

ebp123 said:


> I can get on board with you meet my emotional needs and I meet your physical needs.


That is more than fair, but a lot of people, including my wife when she was younger view sex independently of the core relationship and resent at a visceral level, even the tiniest hint of obligation or reciprocity. 

Sex is a legitimate expectation in marriage? Says who? To them, sex is a luxury, like icing on the cake or leather seats in a car or a in-ground pool in the backyard. --Nice things if you have them, but life goes on if you don't and being upset about it is both childish and selfish. 

Things get convoluted indeed when maintaining that perception *is* their emotional need.


----------



## Happyfamily

ocotillo said:


> Some are talking about the depiction of the most obscene, raunchy, degrading, depraved acts imaginable while others are talking about simple nudity or even possibly _Maxim_ or _Sports Illustrated_ styles of photography.


I don't see honesty about the real issue, which is the threat to a woman's monopoly on sex.

If one of these porn haters walks in on their husband jerking off to Sports Illustrated, is she going to say "Oh, cool, it's just Sports Illustrated, have fun honey..." lol. 

Men who saw my calendar shot were not degrading me. They were putting me up on a pedestal. The people degrading me are the ones who are SAYING it is degrading. Since I am here to stand up for myself, the game is to pretend I wasn't doing porn. 

Instead of being honest and saying "I am threatened by porn", the haters pretend they are rescuing me from being "degraded" when they are the very people degrading me.


----------



## ocotillo

Happyfamily said:


> I don't see honesty about the real issue, which is the threat to a woman's monopoly on sex.


I'm not sure if I understand the term, "Monopoly on sex." Did you perhaps mean sexual autonomy? 

If so, this does connect directly to what I've said. The evolution of Western society towards greater rights for women has gone hand in hand with relaxation of the body modesty taboos of the past. And the most repressive societies today in terms of women's rights are also the ones that demand that women cover up from head to toe in public.

If you read a lot of the anti-porn literature out there, it quickly becomes apparent that they are the ones who seem to have a vested interest in enlarging the definition of pornography beyond that which language will support to include anything whatsoever that's even mildly arousing sexually.




Happyfamily said:


> If one of these porn haters walks in on their husband jerking off to Sports Illustrated, is she going to say "Oh, cool, it's just Sports Illustrated, have fun honey..." lol.


I think very likely, the definition of pornography would, in this instance get stretched to include swimsuit photography, which is absurd and exactly what I'm objecting to here.

A Pastor in my wife's church asserted once that, "Women's clothing catalogs are often pornographic." What he apparently had in mind here were lingerie catalogs which most certainly are not pornographic. This was simply his own repressed sexuality and guilty conscience speaking. This is the same mentality that condemned the National Geographic in its early years, because their photographers made no attempt to Westernize native attire and cover up exposed breasts and other body parts.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you totally, you seem to accept these anti-porn arguments yourself, inasmuch as you seem to consider nudity in and of itself to be pornographic. So I'm genuinely curious what you consider pornography to be in actual practice.

For example would you consider any of the following works of art to be pornographic?

Michelangelo's David

Bouguereau's L'amour s'envole

Titian's Venus of Urbino

Polykleitos' Diadoumenos

Botticelli's The Birth of Venus

Rembrandt's Bathsheba at Her Bath​
I would argue, "No" in all instances because there is nothing obscene about the human body. So I'm honestly not sure why we seem to have a disagreement here. :scratchhead:


----------



## treyvion

For a man who is sexless or having problems obtaining or attracting the opposite sex, porn can be about the worst thing you can do. And porn with masterbation and ejaculation will kill your energy you need to get the real thing.

Porn rewards the pleasure centers of the brain for sight and sexual images, and kills the response you would have towards the real thing.

It really does take you down a few pegs if you are currently sexless.


----------



## Aspydad

treyvion said:


> For a man who is sexless or having problems obtaining or attracting the opposite sex, porn can be about the worst thing you can do. And porn with masterbation and ejaculation will kill your energy you need to get the real thing.
> 
> Porn rewards the pleasure centers of the brain for sight and sexual images, and kills the response you would have towards the real thing.
> 
> It really does take you down a few pegs if you are currently sexless.


You combined allot of different scenarios in one sentence there!!

If one is in a sexless marriage, unless the person is going to go out and have an affair, then masturbation to porn will definitely cool the need for sex – but, is that not the point? Better than cheating would you not say?

Now, if your single and are dating – I would say that porn and masturbation is the worst thing one can do – I know this from experience in college – did not take long to figure that one out. Masturbate at 3 pm and then pick your date up at 7 pm and by 10 pm she is all over you for sex and your already spent – not too smart.

Now, the statement you make that porn in of itself (without masturbation) kills the response you would have towards the real thing – not sure how you come up with that as from my experience, it can actually enhance the real thing.


----------



## treyvion

Aspydad said:


> You combined allot of different scenarios in one sentence there!!
> 
> If one is in a sexless marriage, unless the person is going to go out and have an affair, then masturbation to porn will definitely cool the need for sex – but, is that not the point? Better than cheating would you not say?
> 
> Now, if your single and are dating – I would say that porn and masturbation is the worst thing one can do – I know this from experience in college – did not take long to figure that one out. Masturbate at 3 pm and then pick your date up at 7 pm and by 10 pm she is all over you for sex and your already spent – not too smart.
> 
> Now, the statement you make that porn in of itself (without masturbation) kills the response you would have towards the real thing – not sure how you come up with that as from my experience, it can actually enhance the real thing.


It killed my desire and creativity used to get the real thing, because it reduced the need.

Plus it planted the self image of masterbation for sexual release versus SEX for sexual release. Not a good self image.

Abstaining from the porn and masterbation will give you more impetus to get the real thing.

As far as better then cheating or not. I'm off of the moral viewpoint regarding sex in marriage or a LTR.

If someone has you sexless and effectionless over a 1 year or more they should be cheated on.

I'm getting close to the point where it's intolerable and even after 30 days of neglect, there is no guarantee I wouldn't get it elsewhere, but it is not my preference.


----------



## Happyfamily

ocotillo said:


> If you read a lot of the anti-porn literature out there, it quickly becomes apparent that they are the ones who seem to have a vested interest in enlarging the definition of pornography beyond that which language will support to include anything whatsoever that's even mildly arousing sexually.


What a great post, thanks. :smthumbup:

You have an unholy alliance of porn haters and I have spoken to the class of women whose power over their husbands is threatened by his ability to obtain sexual gratification outside her clutches. 

And don't get me wrong - I feel a flash of fire come over me if my husband is doing something behind my back. Even in cases where I have given him explicit permission I sometimes lose it, but end up calming down and laughing about it later. 

If you look at the history of anti-porn crusaders there are the people you have spoken about, but there is also something important to observe in seeing how "women's liberation" proponents led the charge against porn back in the 1960's and 1970's.

That might seem to go against what you are saying about anti-porn crusaders also being against women's rights. Yes, absolutely you are right. So what explains the feminists in the women's liberation movement being against porn? On the one hand burning their bras and on the other hand railing against Hugh Heffner? 

That's obvious to me when you see that movement being about _power _rather than _rights_. It is only a tiny proportion of women doing porn that threaten the vast majority's sexual power over their husbands. So it makes perfect sense to see feminists at the forefront of anti-porn crusading despite ostensibly being for women's rights.


----------



## Nikita2270

> That might seem to go against what you are saying about anti-porn crusaders also being against women's rights. Yes, absolutely you are right. So what explains the feminists in the women's liberation movement being against porn? On the one hand burning their bras and on the other hand railing against Hugh Heffner?


I would proudly declare myself a feminist but I would never belong to any organized movement. I dislike group-think.

Truthfully, the only reason that I can think that a feminist might be opposed to the porn industry is in the cases where its exploitive.

For instance, I'll give you an example where I have mixed feelings. When you see girls who are barely of age making a lot of porn. I don't think they really understand the potential consequences of how they might be limiting later choices in life. On one hand, they certainly have the right to make the choice...on the other hand, I think they're doing it without the maturity and information to understand the long-term effects.

I recently saw a news story about a teacher who got fired from her job because someone found an old video online from when she was 18. Apparently she was a wonderful teacher and did it ages ago but she was talking about how it had ruined her life and she didn't know it was going to haunt her forever. It broke my heart to watch her talking about it...very sad. She was trying to sue the school board but I don't think she was successful.

Otherwise, where nudity and pornography is informed and consensual, I have zero issue with it. It doesn't threaten me at all.

I've heard of circumstances where some men watch so much of it that it affects their ability to function normally in their relationship but its no different from the problems that arise from not practicing moderation in anything else.

So I would say as a feminist, I'm anti-exploitation...not anti-porn. To me, sexuality is a private matter that couples should talk about and work out.

Trying to control someone from occasionally indulging in self-amusement (lol) seems pretty silly to me. If I walked in on my partner watching your porn material and indulging himself, I'd probably just ask him if he wanted some company.


----------



## Happyfamily

Nikita2270 said:


> Truthfully, the only reason that I can think that a feminist might be opposed to the porn industry is in the cases where its exploitive.
> 
> For instance, I'll give you an example where I have mixed feelings. When you see girls who are barely of age making a lot of porn. I don't think they really understand the potential consequences of how they might be limiting later choices in life. On one hand, they certainly have the right to make the choice...on the other hand, I think they're doing it without the maturity and information to understand the long-term effects.
> 
> I recently saw a news story about a teacher who got fired from her job because someone found an old video online from when she was 18. Apparently she was a wonderful teacher and did it ages ago but she was talking about how it had ruined her life and she didn't know it was going to haunt her forever. It broke my heart to watch her talking about it...very sad. She was trying to sue the school board but I don't think she was successful.
> 
> Otherwise, where nudity and pornography is informed and consensual, I have zero issue with it. It doesn't threaten me at all.


We can't say 18 year olds are adults and have the freedom to choose, except when we decide otherwise. We always use the worst examples we can find in order to take the rights away from the rest of us. 

"Exploitation" is an emotion-based term that is abused by porn haters. All of us exploit opportunities, including me. Had I made a Playboy shoot you bet your sweet rear end I would have exploited that opportunity. But the puritanical control freaks want to paint me as the poor little exploited child who should be prohibited from a shoot in order to "rescue" me, and I find that paternalistic crap offensive. 100% of all transactions are both sides exploiting the opportunity the other side offers. 

So I am fine with whoever wants to protect me from "exploitation" provided that I am also given the right to examine everything in their lives to do the same. Starbucks coffee? Too expensive. Exploitation. I'd stop every person from borrowing money to buy cars because clearly they do not understand this is the primary reason for the average family failing to accumulate wealth. Exploitation. 

People smoke, sky-dive, eat too much fatty foods - the list is endless of reasons we should take people's freedoms under the theory that adults can't weigh the consequences of their actions. All of the above KILL people, so there is far more reason to prohibit those things.


----------



## Ditch

No. My wife is on a life long medication that has diminished her sex drive. We have not been intimate in 6 months and once in the last year. I choose porn over divorce. I love her. I keep my stuff hidden and do it discretely. Would you rather I have a affair?


----------



## treyvion

Ditch said:


> No. My wife is on a life long medication that has diminished her sex drive. We have not been intimate in 6 months and once in the last year. I choose porn over divorce. I love her. I keep my stuff hidden and do it discretely. Would you rather I have a affair?


Do whats in your comfort level. I wouldn't propose an affair except those who are sex starved for no good reason at all other than the other person knows they don't have to put out because they are still going to be supported either way.

Even with zero drive, I cannot for the life of me imagine a man or woman who refuses to attempt to fulfill sex and intimacy with their spouse.


----------



## treyvion

Ditch said:


> No. My wife is on a life long medication that has diminished her sex drive. We have not been intimate in 6 months and once in the last year. I choose porn over divorce. I love her. I keep my stuff hidden and do it discretely. Would you rather I have a affair?


Do whats in your comfort level. I wouldn't propose an affair except those who are sex starved for no good reason at all other than the other person knows they don't have to put out because they are still going to be supported either way.

Even with zero drive, I cannot for the life of me imagine a man or woman who refuses to attempt to fulfill sex and intimacy with their spouse.


----------



## FormerSelf

Here are some statistics regarding porn as compiled by The Pink Cross

Internet Porn Statistics
Average life expectancy of a porn star is 36.2 years

206 porn stars died prematurely from aids, drugs, suicide, homicide, accidental and medical since 2014

#1 suicide method among porn stars is by hanging

66 porn stars that we know of committed suicide

66% of porn performers have Herpes, a non-curable disease.

2,396 cases of Chlamydia and 1,389 cases of Gonorrhea reported among performers since 2004.

Over 100 straight and gay performers died from AIDS.

36 porn stars died that we know of from HIV, suicide, homicide and drugs between 2007 and 2010.

Of all known child abuse domains, 48 percent are housed in the United States. - 9
26 cases of HIV reported by Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation (AIM), since 2004.

70% of sexually transmitted infections in the porn industry occur in females according to County of Los Angeles Public Health.

Child pornography is one of the fastest growing businesses online, and the content is becoming much worse. In 2008, Internet Watch Foundation found 1,536 individual child abuse domains.

Of 1351 pastors surveyed, 54% had viewed Internet pornography within the last year.

There are 4.2 million pornographic websites, 420 million pornographic web pages, and 68 million daily search engine requests.

50% of men and 20% of women in the church regularly view porn.

Worldwide pornography revenue in 2006 was $97.06 billion. Of that, approximately $13 billion was in the United States.

More than 11 million teens regularly view porn online.

The largest group viewing online pornography is ages 12 to 17.

Chlamydia and Gonorrhea among performers is 10x greater than that of LA County 20-24 year olds.

At the 2003 meeting of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, a gathering of the nation’s divorce lawyers, attendees revealed that 58% of their divorces were a result of a spouse looking at excessive amounts of pornography online.


----------



## Fozzy

FormerSelf said:


> Here are some statistics regarding porn as compiled by The Pink Cross
> 
> Internet Porn Statistics
> *Average life expectancy of a porn star is 36.2 years*
> 
> 206 porn stars died prematurely from aids, drugs, suicide, homicide, accidental and medical since 2014
> 
> #1 suicide method among porn stars is by hanging
> 
> 66 porn stars that we know of committed suicide
> 
> 66% of porn performers have Herpes, a non-curable disease.
> 
> 2,396 cases of Chlamydia and 1,389 cases of Gonorrhea reported among performers since 2004.
> 
> Over 100 straight and gay performers died from AIDS.
> 
> 36 porn stars died that we know of from HIV, suicide, homicide and drugs between 2007 and 2010.
> 
> Of all known child abuse domains, 48 percent are housed in the United States. - 9
> 26 cases of HIV reported by Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation (AIM), since 2004.
> 
> 70% of sexually transmitted infections in the porn industry occur in females according to County of Los Angeles Public Health.
> 
> Child pornography is one of the fastest growing businesses online, and the content is becoming much worse. In 2008, Internet Watch Foundation found 1,536 individual child abuse domains.
> 
> Of 1351 pastors surveyed, 54% had viewed Internet pornography within the last year.
> 
> There are 4.2 million pornographic websites, 420 million pornographic web pages, and 68 million daily search engine requests.
> 
> 50% of men and 20% of women in the church regularly view porn.
> 
> Worldwide pornography revenue in 2006 was $97.06 billion. Of that, approximately $13 billion was in the United States.
> 
> More than 11 million teens regularly view porn online.
> 
> The largest group viewing online pornography is ages 12 to 17.
> 
> Chlamydia and Gonorrhea among performers is 10x greater than that of LA County 20-24 year olds.
> 
> At the 2003 meeting of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, a gathering of the nation’s divorce lawyers, attendees revealed that 58% of their divorces were a result of a spouse looking at excessive amounts of pornography online.


Interesting, but I don't see on the website where they're getting these statistics from. The bolded one especially would be very troubling if true, but seems a little odd. What do they use for a definition of "porn star"? In general, the scarier the statistic is--the more I want to see the data behind it to believe it.


----------



## Happyfamily

FormerSelf said:


> Here are some statistics regarding porn...


See how you went from alleged statistics on a very small minority of the porn industry to a statement about all porn?

I don't use statistics on alcoholics to assail people who have a glass of wine at dinner. Nor should statistics on this very small part of this enormous industry be applied to everyone. We look at almost exclusively amateur porn, which is what I did. Amateur soft porn. I wasn't having sex with anyone so these statistics are just irrelevant to me and anyone else like me who did that kind of porn. 

Movie stars in general look pretty bad insofar as alcohol and drug use, tragic early deaths and etc. But there's no outcry about that because they don't pose much threat to anyone's sexual power as compared to people who are specifically serving sexual interests.


----------



## FormerSelf

Happyfamily said:


> See how you went from alleged statistics on a very small minority of the porn industry to a statement about all porn?
> *I just copy and pasted some statistics, I didn't make any assertions. Given, it came from an anti-porn organization...more or less aimed at helping stars who want to get out of sex films and prostitution.*
> 
> I don't use statistics on alcoholics to assail people who have a glass of wine at dinner. Nor should statistics on this very small part of this enormous industry be applied to everyone. We look at almost exclusively amateur porn, which is what I did. Amateur soft porn. I wasn't having sex with anyone so these statistics are just irrelevant to me and anyone else like me who did that kind of porn.
> *Agreed. But I also think it would be shortsighted to ignore that there are cases of exploitation in the porn industry...but that goes the same for many industries. However, I can see you are not wanting to get lumped into a group when you yourself haven't experienced exploitation. *
> 
> Movie stars in general look pretty bad insofar as alcohol and drug use, tragic early deaths and etc. But there's no outcry about that because they don't pose much threat to anyone's sexual power as compared to people who are specifically serving sexual interests.
> *Astute observation.*


----------



## richie33

I thought you got those stats from the Onion.


----------



## FormerSelf

Haha...this would be an Onion stat....

"One hundred percent of porn stars complain of sweating."


----------



## Happyfamily

Thank you for being reasonable, *Former Self*

The exploitation that I see going on is people who have completely different reasons for opposing porn using this very tiny minority to serve their own ends, pretending concern for someone with AIDS for example - they aren't sending money to AIDS research foundations or helping any specific person with AIDS. The AIDS victims are merely objects for them to attain their own selfish ends. THAT is exploitation I find reprehensible. 

They don't want their husband watching amateur porn sites where there isn't even any sex - just pictures of 18 year olds - so they parade AIDS victims out there as if they actually cared about them. 

Dishonesty has always bothered me but admittedly I take personal offense to the dishonesty and hypocrisy of the porn haters who are talking about ME in their thoughtless generalizations. 

I want to be careful and make sure my comments are understood as aimed at this larger body of porn haters out in society and actually thank those in this thread who have demonstrated empathy and understanding.


----------



## TopsyTurvy5

Does using a vibrator make a woman a lesser woman?

End of discussion.


----------



## Tony Conrad

Porn is mental adultery in my book and can be fatal for a marriage.


----------



## chillymorn

Tony Conrad said:


> Porn is mental adultery in my book and can be fatal for a marriage.


romance novels or any writen word that contains any type of sex is considered porn.

just sayin......


----------



## Open up now let it all go

FormerSelf said:


> HAverage life expectancy of a porn star is 36.2 years


That information was taken from this ‘research’ which only included 129 *deceased* pornographic actors/actresses over a 20 year period. I don’t know _how_ on earth they turned that into an average life expectancy considering that the large majority of porn stars of that timespan are still alive but alas. On top of that they include death causes such as car crashes and brain tumors which apparently are also caused by the porn industry. They end the article by quoting the Bible and apparently it is god strikes down fornicators…. Really?

They even have the audacity to include that nonsense on their website: 

https://www.thepinkcross.org/sites/default/files/TheAverageLifeExpectancyOfAPornStar.pdf



FormerSelf said:


> 206 porn stars died prematurely from aids, drugs, suicide, homicide, accidental and medical since 2014


Another statistic that doesn’t really say anything. There isn’t even a credential except for a list of apparently deceased porn stars. Did they also say they included performers who already quit the business any number of years ago? You can fabricate any kind of ‘statistic’ by cherry-picking whatever cases back-up what you are trying to proof. Additionally there are about 115.000 porn stars recorded in databases.



FormerSelf said:


> #1 suicide method among porn stars is by hanging


It is the #1 method of suicide in the whole world.



FormerSelf said:


> 66 porn stars that we know of committed suicide


Which is tragic but a meaningless number by itself.



FormerSelf said:


> 66% of porn performers have Herpes, a non-curable disease.


What Herpes? HSV-1 or 2? I presume they mean #2 since #1 is carried by a ridiculously large number of people (higher than 66%). Even then #2 is also carried by a significant fraction of the population. IMO HSV-2 carries an unnecessary stigma that is misused in this case. Additionally protection does not work effectively against herpes, the disease can be contracted without symptoms and porn actors are not obliged to disclose if they have it. By any means this is completely similar to people sleeping around and getting HSV-2.



FormerSelf said:


> 2,396 cases of Chlamydia and 1,389 cases of Gonorrhea reported among performers since 2004.


I’m not bothering with the flawed approach of just mentioning numbers because this is a critical point. In research it appeared that out of 1903 female performers 50.8% had chlamydia, 40.1% had gonorrhea and 9.1% had both. For men this was respectively 72.7%, 22.1% and 5.2%.

High Chlamydia and gonorrhea incidence and re... [Sex Transm Dis. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Their conclusions? Start wearing condoms.



FormerSelf said:


> 26 cases of HIV reported by Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation (AIM), since 2004.
> 
> Over 100 straight and gay performers died from AIDS.


There are 33.3 *million* infected with HIV worldwide.



FormerSelf said:


> 70% of sexually transmitted infections in the porn industry occur in females according to County of Los Angeles Public Health.


Well yeah – unfortunately women are more susceptible to catching an STD due to anatomy (correct me if I’m wrong).



FormerSelf said:


> Of all known child abuse domains, 48 percent are housed in the United States. – 9
> Child pornography is one of the fastest growing businesses online, and the content is becoming much worse. In 2008, Internet Watch Foundation found 1,536 individual child abuse domains.


I’m not sure what this has to do with regular porn. We can all agree that this is a horrible phenomenon but how do they correlate this to the AFI (adult film industry)? AFAIK child pornography is produced and distributed through completely different channels than regular porn. 



FormerSelf said:


> Of 1351 pastors surveyed, 54% had viewed Internet pornography within the last year.
> 50% of men and 20% of women in the church regularly view porn.


Christians clearly have the same sexual desires as any other human being – I’m glad that’s out in the open now.

Skipping the rest because it continues with observations that are completely unrelated to the porn industry itself.

Anyhow – there definitely are things wrong with the porn industry. I have no doubt about that. But this is just the wrong way of bringing the issues up. It all gets clouded in misrepresented or simply false statistics, meaningless numbers and incorrect correlations. Pinkcross or whatever their name is – is a seriously dubious movement that clearly has some sort of agenda and doesn’t steer clear from twisting the truth radically to get their point across.


----------



## clipclop2

the most flawed industry is the research industry. 

I don't understand how these people get degrees. even scarier is that they get published and people regurgitate  the flawed conclusions. 

I'm strongly against pornography. and I do think less of men who make a lot of use of it. 

any industry where there is a lot of exploitation of people is going to leave damaged people behind. 

it doesn't take poorly managed studies to draw that conclusion.


----------



## Caribbean Man

clipclop2 said:


> the most flawed industry is the research industry.
> 
> I don't understand how these people get degrees. even scarier is that they get published and people regurgitate the flawed conclusions.
> 
> I'm strongly against pornography. and I do think less of men who make a lot of use of it.
> 
> *any industry where there is a lot of exploitation of people is going to leave damaged people behind*.
> 
> it doesn't take poorly managed studies to draw that conclusion.


:iagree: with the highlighted part.
So , if you found out that Hollywood and the movie industry was way more exploitative than the porn industry , would you stop looking at movies produced by Hollywood based producers?
Would you think less of other people who still enjoyed Hollywood's movie reels?

Have a look at this woman's blog ,

There’s A Fine Line Between Exploitation And Opportunity In The Film Industry.|SydneysBuzz

What do you think?

BTW, a huge chunk of women who audition for porn movies are Hollywood rejects. 
And there are a few extremely successful and famous Hollywood actors who started their careers in the porn industry.

Sylvester Stallone and Jackie Chan immediately comes to mind.


----------



## richie33

Football exploits young men. It uses and abuses their bodies. I am sure you can find statistics of suicide and high drug of former football player. Not to mention the brain injuries and paralized players.Hopefully the posters who are against porn for the exploitation of woman must surely be as against their husbands watching the exploitation of young men in football.


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## wanttolove

Dabbling with porn or anything that could be destructive to someone, possibly addicting, is not a good idea. None of the above.


----------



## ariel_angel77

I will NEVER believe that porn is anything but evil.

Men have NO CLUE and just don't even care how it makes their woman feel. If they know how humiliated, ugly, awful it makes us feel....well, it doesn't even matter, because they would still watch it. Their sexual gratification matters more than how she feels.

How can you get sexual gratification from ANYONE but your woman??? WTF is wrong with you that your woman is not enough for you? Idc what any woman or man says, it hurts deep. Because of my husband formerly watching porn, I think I'm the ugliest thing in the world. I used to think I was pretty but now I don't. If he would rather "get off" to an old woman than me. Yeah I'm pretty darn ugly. I even think about it when he doesn't want to go twice in a row and I do. I feel like I'm not good enough to go twice in a row but porn is.

As you guys can tell, this is a sensitive topic for me.


----------



## richie33

Us....you speak for all women? Plenty of women on this very site watch porn.


----------



## over20

ariel_angel77 said:


> I will NEVER believe that porn is anything but evil.
> 
> Men have NO CLUE and just don't even care how it makes their woman feel. If they know how humiliated, ugly, awful it makes us feel....well, it doesn't even matter, because they would still watch it. Their sexual gratification matters more than how she feels.
> 
> How can you get sexual gratification from ANYONE but your woman??? WTF is wrong with you that your woman is not enough for you? Idc what any woman or man says, it hurts deep. Because of my husband formerly watching porn, I think I'm the ugliest thing in the world. I used to think I was pretty but now I don't. If he would rather "get off" to an old woman than me. Yeah I'm pretty darn ugly. I even think about it when he doesn't want to go twice in a row and I do. I feel like I'm not good enough to go twice in a row but porn is.
> 
> As you guys can tell, this is a sensitive topic for me.



I understand how you feel being a woman myself. Men and women's sexuality are sooo different though. I once read a great book that helped me understand the struggle men have with porn. It was called "Every Mans Battle" by Steve Arterburn. It is an excellent read and has a section at the end of every chapter just for wives. After reading it I had a lot more empathy towards my husband.

Hang in there


----------



## ariel_angel77

Okay...that was my emotional response...My logical response is that it's a very slippery slope. It's easy for something like that to not become enough. It's extremely addictive. The fact that it hurts your partner should be enough for you to not do it. If you and your spouse both like it, then I guess that's yalls cup of tea, but I personally think it's easily destructive. You should NEVER let anything even threat to come between you and your spouse.

It's not worth the momentary pleasure in my opinion. You should do everything in your power to keep your marriage pure.


----------



## clipclop2

football is seriously damaging. & I get really pissed at the amount of money that goes towards sports in college as opposed to education. 

all that said I can't think of the last time a guy watched football and then couldn't get it up for his wife because of it.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

ariel_angel77 said:


> I will NEVER believe that porn is anything but evil.
> 
> Men have NO CLUE and just don't even care how it makes their woman feel. If they know how humiliated, ugly, awful it makes us feel....well, it doesn't even matter, because they would still watch it. Their sexual gratification matters more than how she feels.
> 
> How can you get sexual gratification from ANYONE but your woman??? WTF is wrong with you that your woman is not enough for you? Idc what any woman or man says, it hurts deep. Because of my husband formerly watching porn, I think I'm the ugliest thing in the world. I used to think I was pretty but now I don't. If he would rather "get off" to an old woman than me. Yeah I'm pretty darn ugly. I even think about it when he doesn't want to go twice in a row and I do. I feel like I'm not good enough to go twice in a row but porn is.
> 
> As you guys can tell, this is a sensitive topic for me.


Ariel

I don't it's that hard to understand why a wife would feel that way. She has a legitimate gripe on that. 

But it occurred to me......now I'm kind of curious what people here think. -- what about a wife that is your direct opposite? Ie barely interest to do it twice per year with her husband, let alone twice in one night. Might a husband be justified in starting up a blatant porn habit under those circumstances?? IMO yes. If for no other reason than to make a point.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

clipclop2 said:


> all that said I can't think of the last time a guy watched football and then couldn't get it up for his wife because of it.


That would've been last night against Argentina.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johny1989

Well honestly Real men & women often do enjoy porn together or solo without hurting their relationship.. I have seen this kind of post on another thread, so most of people answered like they don't have any problem to watch porn with there partner and it doesn't effect on their relationship..


----------



## richie33

clipclop2 said:


> football is seriously damaging. & I get really pissed at the amount of money that goes towards sports in college as opposed to education.
> 
> all that said I can't think of the last time a guy watched football and then couldn't get it up for his wife because of it.


Or the wife is LD and expects the husband not to touch themselves. Happens all the time. 
Wife walks in the room disgusted that she sees a cheerleader on the screen but doesn't bat a eye when they are carting a 20 year old off the field with a broken neck.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ariel_angel77 said:


> Okay...that was my emotional response...My logical response is that it's a very slippery slope. It's easy for something like that to not become enough. It's extremely addictive. The fact that it hurts your partner should be enough for you to not do it. If you and your spouse both like it, then I guess that's yalls cup of tea, but I personally think it's easily destructive. You should NEVER let anything even threat to come between you and your spouse.
> 
> It's not worth the momentary pleasure in my opinion. You should do everything in your power to keep your marriage pure.


I agree with much of what you say here, in reality everyone's situation is different but there is common ground that can be found in all situations.

Those who are easily addicted.
Those who are not addicted but whose partner is against it.
Those who have healthy relationships and can manage it.
Those who don't see it as an " issue" period.

Ostensibly it's all about what both parties agree to and the boundaries they have.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Open up now let it all go said:


> That would've been last night against Argentina.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol,

Made me laugh.

I was supporting Van Persie and those guys in orange too , but when it came down to penalties, I knew they'd lose.


----------



## Blonde

The earlier the porn use starts the more damaging.

H was exposed starting in preschool and had it pushed on him by adult males throughout his childhood because they were afraid he was going to be gay and wanted him to "love women".

As a teen he experimented with promiscuity, homosexuality and incest and when using LSD thought he should even have sex with his father because sex is the ONLY expression of love.

He is a very damaged and emotionally arrested adult. He has no empathy and an extreme problem with objectification/utilitarianism toward fellow human beings. 

So, do you want your little boys using? How are you protecting them?


----------



## kilgore

i don't know if it's damaging, but watching porn did make me think i have a really small penis. lol.


----------



## jaharthur

Blonde said:


> The earlier the porn use starts the more damaging.
> 
> H was exposed starting in preschool and had it pushed on him by adult males throughout his childhood because they were afraid he was going to be gay and wanted him to "love women".
> 
> As a teen he experimented with promiscuity, homosexuality and incest and when using LSD thought he should even have sex with his father because sex is the ONLY expression of love.
> 
> He is a very damaged and emotionally arrested adult. He has no empathy and an extreme problem with objectification/utilitarianism toward fellow human beings.
> 
> So, do you want your little boys using? How are you protecting them?


Was it the porn, or the perverted adults/authority figures around him? Or maybe the drugs?

Correlation does not mean causation.


----------



## Shoto1984

intheory said:


> So true.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what it's like in maybe 10 years--- as more women get interested in porn; and porn adjusts to attracting female viewers.
> 
> The men will have to be beautiful and do things that women dream about.
> 
> Women will become increasingly dissatisfied with "real" men; and their physical/sexual "faults"
> 
> It's not the same as vibrators. This will be men having their face rubbed in the fact that their wives/girlfriends would really prefer to have sex *with the guys *in the film.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a good thing. But, it's inevitable. And I have to admit I'm kind of interested in seeing how it all pans out.


There seems to be a lot in societal evolution that is lessening the "need" of men and women for each other. The sexual aspect is just a part of that.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I hate this constant assumption that porn is damaging. EVERYTHING is damaging in EXCESS.

When those in a relationship have a different opinion on porn, or anything else for that matter, they can judge for themselves whether its worth changing behavior or ending the relationship over. The sweeping judgments I keep reading are total crap.

Ultimately, no one is going to tell me what I can watch or do alone. I gave up racing motorcycles because of my ex's anxieties. I gave up skydiving. Doing so made me unhappy, because - to my thinking, they were unreasonable affronts to my will and self-determinism. I'm comfortable with these things, why should I have to change? The same argument was given to me: "It hurts me that you don't consider my feelings about you doing these things! They're dangerous!" Its coercion, plain and simple... and taking away what I enjoy makes me miserable. I won't give up things I enjoy again. If what I enjoy is hurtful to them, I'm not the guy for them... there's the door. If what they do hurts me, I'm certainly not hanging around for it. That's something up to each individual to decide and all these arguments about the dangers of porn, being "real men", or insensitive to the feelings of others are red herrings. Where was the sensitivity for my enjoyment of motorcycle racing? Every time you ask someone to change their behavior, you're being just as insensitive as you imagine they are. The truth is you're both equally within your right to assert your will, and judge whether the incompatibilities are deal breakers or worth someone giving up... either the person with the concern letting it go, or the person with the behavior changing it.

I won't be bludgeoned with emotional appeals again. My not having a problem with something, is just as valid as your having a problem with it. Its no duty of mine (or yours) to concede. Go find a more compatible partner, I know I will.

If a woman has a problem with me watching porn, there's damn sure a lot of other things about me she'd like to control too. F that. I like porn, I don't get all self-conscious or hurt by her watching it, and I expect her to have the same security.


----------



## Blonde

jaharthur said:


> Was it the porn, or the perverted adults/authority figures around him? Or maybe the drugs?
> 
> Correlation does not mean causation.


Porn exposure which snowballed.

looking at hard core porn mags in preschool, 
cornholing himself in the barn, 
daddy thought "OMG he's gonna be a ******"
daddy and grampa pushed porn porn porn
daddy demonstrated on a 12 yo neighbor child who was well developed how you feel her up

go and do likewise, son

H thinks what his dad did to him was "loving"
"He was so CONCERNED I was gonna be a ****"

I wonder how many porn users agree with what his dad did and will do likewise with their sons? :scratchhead:
"Gotta teach em early to 'love women'" :slap:


----------



## Blonde

And yeah. My IC- Professional LCSW who has worked with sexual offenders says early porn exposure destroys empathy and fosters chronic objectification.

Scary world we are creating with children routinely exposed. A world of sociopaths who will use and dispose of other people without empathy or conscience.

Don't want my toddler son? I'll leave him in the car to die of hyperthermia while I sext. Police: Dad was 'sexting' as son was dying in hot car - CNN.com


----------



## Wolf1974

Blonde said:


> Porn exposure which snowballed.
> 
> looking at hard core porn mags in preschool,
> cornholing himself in the barn,
> daddy thought "OMG he's gonna be a ******"
> daddy and grampa pushed porn porn porn
> daddy demonstrated on a 12 yo neighbor child who was well developed how you feel her up
> 
> go and do likewise, son
> 
> H thinks what his dad did to him was "loving"
> "He was so CONCERNED I was gonna be a ****"
> 
> I wonder how many porn users agree with what his dad did and will do likewise with their sons? :scratchhead:
> "Gotta teach em early to 'love women'" :slap:


I wouldn't go over the top on teaching a son anything that will come naturally. Also wouldn't shame him for his curiosity about sex and women either.


----------



## jaharthur

Blonde said:


> Porn exposure which snowballed.
> 
> looking at hard core porn mags in preschool,
> cornholing himself in the barn,
> daddy thought "OMG he's gonna be a ******"
> daddy and grampa pushed porn porn porn
> daddy demonstrated on a 12 yo neighbor child who was well developed how you feel her up
> 
> go and do likewise, son
> 
> H thinks what his dad did to him was "loving"
> "He was so CONCERNED I was gonna be a ****"
> 
> I wonder how many porn users agree with what his dad did and will do likewise with their sons? :scratchhead:
> "Gotta teach em early to 'love women'" :slap:


Sounds to me like the damage was done by the bizarre people with whom he grew up and would have happened with or without porn.


----------



## Blonde

His family is American as apple pie. They did not hand the 3yo porn. He found a stack of it in the barn.

They did hand the 12 yo porn. (the males did. His mom hated that he had centerfolds plastered all over his wall but she apparently had no say in their patriarchal american farm culture)

Nowadays with internet, every child has easy access and if daddy uses and approves...


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## richie33

What if mommy uses it? Post screams as if only men view porn. Also the dad who left the child in the car to die...they also found on the mothers computer searches on how long a child can be left in a car before a child dies. Not so one sided.


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## Shoto1984

This is insane parenting. Sex and sexual material just happen to at the center of the insanity in this case.


----------



## staarz21

I think some of us who married people who take porn too far feel misunderstood sometimes. Like people judge us and call us prudes or we are denying him masturbation....It's silly sometimes because they have no idea what we go through with them on a daily basis. 

Normal people who watch porn can't understand where some of us are coming from. My H is not normal with porn. 6 hours a day isn't normal. Watching porn when you need to be watching the kids because I am at a dr. appt. not normal. Watching porn 5 mins after having sex with your wife isn't normal and a great way to let her know it SUCKED (even if you don't think it did, she will think so). Viruses. Omg. The viruses I have had to clean off of his computers. Ugh! 

The lies are a big part of it too. They tear through trust like none other. It's bad. 

ED. That's fun. When my H stops looking at so much porn (he goes through phases of trying to stop) we have issues in the bedroom because he can't keep an erection without porn on. I feel super great then. Even with my fit self. It's enough to take the most confident woman and tear her to pieces. 

Am I against porn? Under normal circumstances, no way. I like porn. I watch it when my H is deployed. I can't watch it when he is home because he triggers, with good reason. If he triggers, I literally won't see him that much for a few days. He will disappear to the bathroom...to the truck...to the store...to where ever to watch porn. He will be gone for hours at a time. 

However, I have read some things from some women who have unrealistic expectations of their men and porn. These women don't want to have sex but once a week or even less. That is completely unfair. If the guy is only watching porn to simply supplement what he isn't getting, it's harmless. Some women ONLY want their men to look at them. That's ok...if they are giving him something to look at. Realistically, you're going to have to keep up with your H if you don't want him fishing in another pond. 

There is normal and there is way beyond that. I think that some people really don't understand how bad it can get because they haven't encountered it. That's totally ok. But try not to label everyone as a woman over reacting to her H's porn for no reason. Some of us have very good reason.


----------



## jaharthur

staarz21 said:


> I think some of us who married people who take porn too far feel misunderstood sometimes. Like people judge us and call us prudes or we are denying him masturbation....It's silly sometimes because they have no idea what we go through with them on a daily basis.
> 
> Normal people who watch porn can't understand where some of us are coming from. My H is not normal with porn. 6 hours a day isn't normal. Watching porn when you need to be watching the kids because I am at a dr. appt. not normal. Watching porn 5 mins after having sex with your wife isn't normal and a great way to let her know it SUCKED (even if you don't think it did, she will think so). Viruses. Omg. The viruses I have had to clean off of his computers. Ugh!
> 
> The lies are a big part of it too. They tear through trust like none other. It's bad.
> 
> ED. That's fun. When my H stops looking at so much porn (he goes through phases of trying to stop) we have issues in the bedroom because he can't keep an erection without porn on. I feel super great then. Even with my fit self. It's enough to take the most confident woman and tear her to pieces.
> 
> Am I against porn? Under normal circumstances, no way. I like porn. I watch it when my H is deployed. I can't watch it when he is home because he triggers, with good reason. If he triggers, I literally won't see him that much for a few days. He will disappear to the bathroom...to the truck...to the store...to where ever to watch porn. He will be gone for hours at a time.
> 
> However, I have read some things from some women who have unrealistic expectations of their men and porn. These women don't want to have sex but once a week or even less. That is completely unfair. If the guy is only watching porn to simply supplement what he isn't getting, it's harmless. Some women ONLY want their men to look at them. That's ok...if they are giving him something to look at. Realistically, you're going to have to keep up with your H if you don't want him fishing in another pond.
> 
> There is normal and there is way beyond that. I think that some people really don't understand how bad it can get because they haven't encountered it. That's totally ok. But try not to label everyone as a woman over reacting to her H's porn for no reason. Some of us have very good reason.


No, I don't believe those of us who do not condemn porn entirely misunderstand you. To the contrary, your situation is awful. Your husband needs treatment badly.

The analogy we draw is to alcohol. I would never discount the pain of someone who is dealing with a loved one who is an alcoholic. But I can have a glass of wine with dinner and it doesn't interfere with my life.

The abuse of almost anything is a problem.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

staarz21 said:


> I think some of us who married people who take porn too far feel misunderstood sometimes. Like people judge us and call us prudes or we are denying him masturbation....It's silly sometimes because they have no idea what we go through with them on a daily basis.
> 
> Normal people who watch porn can't understand where some of us are coming from. My H is not normal with porn. 6 hours a day isn't normal. Watching porn when you need to be watching the kids because I am at a dr. appt. not normal. Watching porn 5 mins after having sex with your wife isn't normal and a great way to let her know it SUCKED (even if you don't think it did, she will think so). Viruses. Omg. The viruses I have had to clean off of his computers. Ugh!
> 
> The lies are a big part of it too. They tear through trust like none other. It's bad.
> 
> ED. That's fun. When my H stops looking at so much porn (he goes through phases of trying to stop) we have issues in the bedroom because he can't keep an erection without porn on. I feel super great then. Even with my fit self. It's enough to take the most confident woman and tear her to pieces.
> 
> Am I against porn? Under normal circumstances, no way. I like porn. I watch it when my H is deployed. I can't watch it when he is home because he triggers, with good reason. If he triggers, I literally won't see him that much for a few days. He will disappear to the bathroom...to the truck...to the store...to where ever to watch porn. He will be gone for hours at a time.
> 
> However, I have read some things from some women who have unrealistic expectations of their men and porn. These women don't want to have sex but once a week or even less. That is completely unfair. If the guy is only watching porn to simply supplement what he isn't getting, it's harmless. Some women ONLY want their men to look at them. That's ok...if they are giving him something to look at. Realistically, you're going to have to keep up with your H if you don't want him fishing in another pond.
> 
> There is normal and there is way beyond that. I think that some people really don't understand how bad it can get because they haven't encountered it. That's totally ok. But try not to label everyone as a woman over reacting to her H's porn for no reason. Some of us have very good reason.


Does he acknowledge he has a serious addiction?


----------



## staarz21

nuclearnightmare said:


> Does he acknowledge he has a serious addiction?


Only in this past year has he admitted to having a problem. He said he had a conversation with his best friend about it (as we were arguing about it) who told him it was normal. I seriously doubt this friend got all of the information, but to watching for a few hours at a time, this is supposedly normal. 

Maybe it is normal for an hour or so at a time and my standard is off the wall. If that is the case, then I am scared for the future of young men (and women) that are watching this much. 

While it is ok in small amounts, I don't think hours every day is going to lead to anything good.


----------



## Wolf1974

intheory said:


> I think, ultimately, it will mean the end of marriage. At least as we know it.
> 
> Because, it is only a matter of time 'til prostitution becomes legal. Women will be able to go to prostitutes too.
> 
> The state will probably have to incentivize childbearing. Or, greatly relax immigration laws.
> 
> It'll take about 100 years, I think, for marriage to disappear. Maybe serial monogamy will be the "marriage" of the future.


I agree with you. I think soon marriage will only be thought of as the type of thing that only religious people do or very traditional people. In 100 years I don't think it will be the norm at all unless government somehow removes itself from the process completely.....and I just don't see that ever happening. No real incentive to get married anymore.


----------



## Caribbean Man

staarz21 said:


> Only in this past year has he admitted to having a problem. He said he had a conversation with his best friend about it (as we were arguing about it) who told him it was normal. I seriously doubt this friend got all of the information, but to watching for a few hours at a time, this is supposedly normal.
> 
> Maybe it is normal for an hour or so at a time and my standard is off the wall. If that is the case, then I am scared for the future of young men (and women) that are watching this much.
> 
> While it is ok in small amounts, I don't think hours every day is going to lead to anything good.



My thinking is that porn use for a single man and a man in a healthy marriage where he's getting his sexual needs satisfied or his wife is willing to satisfy his sexual needs is supposed to be different , minimal or at least non, existent.

I think if a man is in a good sexual relationship , then he doesn't need to be getting off daily to porn , or worse yet hours of daily porn.

I'm not trying to make a rule here , just talking from my personal experience. A couple might enjoy it together sometimes , but I don't believe they should have to stick in a porn DVD everytime they have sex in order for one partner or both to get aroused.

The same can be said of alcohol.


----------



## Caribbean Man

intheory said:


> I think, ultimately, it will mean the end of marriage. At least as we know it.
> 
> Because, it is only a matter of time 'til prostitution becomes legal. Women will be able to go to prostitutes too.
> 
> The state will probably have to incentivize childbearing. Or, greatly relax immigration laws.
> 
> It'll take about 100 years, I think, for marriage to disappear. Maybe serial monogamy will be the "marriage" of the future.


Interesting theory you have there , but based on what's happening now , if things continue along this trajectory, your view seem accurate.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I tend to think an hour is the upper bound, and daily is problematic. To my thinking it shouldn't be made a habit, but an occasional thing - much like drinking.


----------



## Caribbean Man

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I tend to think an hour is the upper bound, and daily is problematic. To my thinking it shouldn't be made a habit, but an occasional thing - much like drinking.



And I think that is what pisses off some women.

Husband spend hours on porn but can't last more than three minutes in bed having sex with her or can't even get hard enough for her when she's ready for sex.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Caribbean Man said:


> And I think that is what pisses off some women.
> 
> Husband spend hours on porn but can't last more than three minutes in bed having sex with her or can't even get hard enough for her when she's ready for sex.


And rightly so!!!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Caribbean Man said:


> And I think that is what pisses off some women.
> 
> Husband spend hours on porn but can't last more than three minutes in bed having sex with her or can't even get hard enough for her when she's ready for sex.


yes.that's a huge problem. If I ever found out that my husband's occasional erection issues are due to porn usage instead of anxiety...well...somebody better save some money to post my bail.


----------



## jaharthur

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree with you. I think soon marriage will only be thought of as the type of thing that only religious people do or very traditional people. In 100 years I don't think it will be the norm at all unless government somehow removes itself from the process completely.....and I just don't see that ever happening. No real incentive to get married anymore.


Color me dubious, for the simple reason that marriage is at its core a contract with terms set by the state to govern where property goes on death, who has to support children, etc. "Marriage" as we know it will undoubtedly evolve, but society's interests in the consequences of marriage will still be present. There will be a contract, whether called "marriage" or some other name, or the law will impose the equivalent rules. So folks may not be "married" but they will have much the same obligations, simply originating from a different source.


----------



## lifeisbetterthanalternat

Addmittedly I have not taken the time to read the 10 pages of posts to this thread but…I find the tittle of the thread and the choices for the poll interesting to say the least. I think there are either intentional or unintentional consequence to the tittle and nature of this thread….to site how many women are hurt etc….it is not clear the point. Perhaps in the interest of clarity CM (the OP) could edit his original post. 

MY take ..For sure porn does hurt SOME women in SOME marriages and even if I recognize that does it make me less of a man for “using it”. Even so..it would not make me less of a man (or even a husband for that matter) unless it hurt my family. Some women enjoys porn, use porn…others don’t object (or at least are ambivalent to it) as it does serve as a release valve for their husband’s physical needs when they are now perhaps ready, willing or able to meet those needs. 

This topic is a heated one and there is no clear answer. For some women porn=infidelity. Clearly this should be a topic that is discussed prior to marriage. Some men unwittingly assume this is an acceptable practice and some women assume the opposite. The issue is further complicated as some men make the assumption (wrong or otherwise) that they will get the same amount of sex throughout marriage as they did in the beginning. As we know this is not always the case. For other men, they turn to porn for variety and or a “quick fix”. Given feelings of jealousy that can result in their wives, this can prove problematic. As with everything else communication is key. 
There are many issues with porn that women feel. jealousy, insecurity, loss of power to some extent, or the fear that porn has or will cause E/D or other sex problems. Whether or not they are justified, fair or even reasonable will be the ongoing debate for some time given the essence of the issues and the disparate views on the matter. 

What is find particularly bothersome however, is when people site porn industry exploitation issues as a reason for objecting. I think this is a moral issue and is clearly intended to shame the users of porn. Clearly the ones above are more central and relevant to the issue rather than parties (women) outside the marriage that are victims (even if we collectively agree on this). To me this is not Germane to the nature of whether porn has a place in marriage. If we want to talk about our collective social responsibility to refrain from supporting industries that do bad things we should refrain from supporting;

Football – 12 college and high school men DIE every year 
Diamonds- 3 million people have been killed over diamonds. 
Crab Fishing – 36 men die every year (mostly drownding In cold water…fun) 
The list goes on and on. 

This is not “talk about business/industry ethics”, “talk about morality” or some this is “TAM” References to the moral implications of supporting these industries to me are “guilt daggers” intended on shaming men into compliance.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

staarz21 said:


> Only in this past year has he admitted to having a problem. He said he had a conversation with his best friend about it (as we were arguing about it) who told him it was normal. I seriously doubt this friend got all of the information, but to watching for a few hours at a time, this is supposedly normal.
> 
> Maybe it is normal for an hour or so at a time and my standard is off the wall. If that is the case, then I am scared for the future of young men (and women) that are watching this much.
> 
> While it is ok in small amounts, I don't think hours every day is going to lead to anything good.



"he goes through phases of trying to stop" - your words. i.e. he has tried to stop but cannot. that's an addiction by nearly every defintion.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> Addmittedly I have not taken the time to read the 10 pages of posts to this thread but…I find the tittle of the thread and the choices for the poll interesting to say the least. I think there are either intentional or unintentional consequence to the tittle and nature of this thread….to site how many women are hurt etc….it is not clear the point. Perhaps in the interest of clarity CM (the OP) could edit his original post.
> 
> MY take ..For sure porn does hurt SOME women in SOME marriages and even if I recognize that does it make me less of a man for “using it”. Even so..it would not make me less of a man (or even a husband for that matter) unless it hurt my family. Some women enjoys porn, use porn…others don’t object (or at least are ambivalent to it) as it does serve as a release valve for their husband’s physical needs when they are now perhaps ready, willing or able to meet those needs.
> 
> This topic is a heated one and there is no clear answer. For some women porn=infidelity. Clearly this should be a topic that is discussed prior to marriage. Some men unwittingly assume this is an acceptable practice and some women assume the opposite. The issue is further complicated as some men make the assumption (wrong or otherwise) that they will get the same amount of sex throughout marriage as they did in the beginning. As we know this is not always the case. For other men, they turn to porn for variety and or a “quick fix”. Given feelings of jealousy that can result in their wives, this can prove problematic. As with everything else communication is key.
> There are many issues with porn that women feel. jealousy, insecurity, loss of power to some extent, or the fear that porn has or will cause E/D or other sex problems. Whether or not they are justified, fair or even reasonable will be the ongoing debate for some time given the essence of the issues and the disparate views on the matter.
> 
> What is find particularly bothersome however, is when people site porn industry exploitation issues as a reason for objecting. I think this is a moral issue and is clearly intended to shame the users of porn. Clearly the ones above are more central and relevant to the issue rather than parties (women) outside the marriage that are victims (even if we collectively agree on this). To me this is not Germane to the nature of whether porn has a place in marriage. If we want to talk about our collective social responsibility to refrain from supporting industries that do bad things we should refrain from supporting;
> 
> Football – 12 college and high school men DIE every year
> Diamonds- 3 million people have been killed over diamonds.
> Crab Fishing – 36 men die every year (mostly drownding In cold water…fun)
> The list goes on and on.
> 
> This is not “talk about business/industry ethics”, “talk about morality” or some this is “TAM” References to the moral implications of supporting these industries to me are “guilt daggers” intended on shaming men into compliance.


I agree with you. 
Basically , this is what iVe tried to achieve in this thread. It's an emotional subject ,but what complicates is when people are dishonest in their views and start shaming others who feel differently about the issue than them.

What makes matters worse is when they begin to construct these ridiculous , gender biased strawman arguments and claim that any man who doesn't agree with them is a misogynist , less than a man or any of the other common shaming tactics used on these boards.
Never mind that some females openly admit that they too sometimes enjoy the fantasy of porn.

Inevitably their arguments can't stand on its own merit and they get upset.

The reality is that porn affects us all in different ways , and it isn't always negative . Like anything else , it's use should be decided and agreed upon before getting involved with another person or most definitely, before getting married.
Especially if one partner is morally opposed or has serious reservations about it.


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree with you.
> Basically , this is what iVe tried to achieve in this thread. It's an emotional subject ,but what complicates is when people are dishonest in their views and start shaming others who feel differently about the issue than them.
> 
> What makes matters worse is when they begin to construct these ridiculous , gender biased strawman arguments and claim that any man who doesn't agree with them is a misogynist , less than a man or any of the other common shaming tactics used on these boards.


So instead you just shame those who do bring up these moral concerns by calling them dishonest and belittling their arguments, without ever taking on the reality of the issues. How dare they disagree with your so obviously right position?

To argue that the exploitation of he porn industry can't really be a problem because that same exploitation exists in other industries is just a big ol' logical fallacy. 

Yes, there are many exploitations in this world. Doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye, nor does it invalidate the arguments and evidence that detail that exploitation.


----------



## clipclop2

You can't shame someone if there isn't already shame in them. The guy who feels shame for watching porn and then is upset because someone points it out is already acting against his own moral code.

That's his problem, isn't it? His own code is being violated. By him. Calling attention to it didn't cause the shame. Preexisting condition.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> *So instead you just shame those who do bring up these moral concerns by calling them dishonest and belittling their arguments, without ever taking on the reality of the issues. How dare they disagree with your so obviously right position?*
> 
> To argue that the exploitation of he porn industry can't really be a problem because that same exploitation exists in other industries is just a big ol' logical fallacy.
> 
> Yes, there are many exploitations in this world. Doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye, nor does it invalidate the arguments and evidence that detail that exploitation.


No.

Calling out hypocrisy is not the same as shaming.
What you were attempting to do in your first paragraph which I highlighted , is a well known underhanded shaming tactic I am all too familiar with.

Gas-lighting.

And then you begin to play the victim role.

The main argument was never about exploitation in the porn industry. I simply used the example of the exploitation in other industries to show that even though it exists and much worse than porn , the same people who fully support these exploitative industry try to cry shame on people who view porn.

That's hypocrisy.

The main issue is does using porn make a man a lesser man?

My response is does going to the movies to view blockbuster flicks made in a very exploitative industry like Hollywood make a man a lesser mam?

If you answer yes to the first and no to the second , then it is quite obvious what that makes _you_.

We all have our own morals and standards . Nothing is inherently wrong with that , we are all humans.

Creating strawman arguments and using it to browbeat others who hold a different view is wrong and morally reprehensible.

Based on the poll, I think the general consensus of the thread is as long as a person's porn use isn't hurting his spouse or anybody , it doesn't make him into anything lesser of a man.


----------



## always_alone

clipclop2 said:


> You can't shame someone if there isn't already shame in them. The guy who feels shame for watching porn and then is upset because someone points it out is already acting against his own moral code.
> 
> That's his problem, isn't it? His own code is being violated. By him. Calling attention to it didn't cause the shame. Preexisting condition.


And this is it exactly! Pointing out the exploitative and rather heinous aspects of the porn industry is arguing facts.

That some take this to be shaming of them shows very clearly who is hiding behind the victim role


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> No.
> 
> Calling out hypocrisy is not the same as shaming.


You are assuming hypocrisy with no evidence of it. 

How is that not putting down those who disagree with your view?





Caribbean Man said:


> Creating strawman arguments and using it to browbeat others who hold a different view is wrong and morally reprehensible.


And if the shoe fits...


----------



## clipclop2

The difference between porn and sports is light years, anyway. Sports figures are generally looked upon favorably. Their individual behavior is what kills their reputations. A porn star is still a ***** no matter how you slice it. She gets paid to have sex. Getting paid a lot doesn't change it any more than getting paid a lot doesn't change the fact that a woman who claims to be a high priced escort is still a prostitute just the same any ho who gives blow jobs for a fiver.

Most of the guys who consume porn don't want their wives or daughters in the industry. They call women *****s who have several partners. They think less of women who have sex on the first date, etc. Etc. If you want to point out hypocrisy, there ya go. Their porm use amounts to compartmentalizing to the highest degree.

Shame. 

They have plenty to be ashamed of.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> And this is it exactly! Pointing out the exploitative and rather heinous aspects of the porn industry is arguing facts.
> 
> That some take this to be shaming of them shows very clearly who is hiding behind the victim role


And I haven't seen anyone on this thread saying that they feel ashamed for using porn. 
Attempting to shame someone doesn't necessarily mean that they would feel ashamed.
But it is wrong.

The shaming has to do with people who project their own values on other people and say that they are lesser person because of a different view,sexual orientation , social class or sex.

There will always be some self righteous justifiable reason for people inclined to look down on others , to do so.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the porn itself , but your personal views on people who view it.

Circular logic at its best.


It's no different than fat shaming , slvt shaming , gender shaming, homophobia or racial profiling.
It's out of style , out of date and out of place.


----------



## clipclop2

So no big deal then because the guys are secure and open about their porn use.


----------



## always_alone

clipclop2 said:


> So no big deal then because the guys are secure and open about their porn use.


Right! Exploitation in the porn industry doesn't matter because it doesn't matter. 

Anyone who says otherwise is guilty of shaming and circular logic.


----------



## clipclop2

It is OK to shame me for using circular logic. Shame by its nature is circular. There is only one way out. Stop doing what makes you feel ashamed.

Every person is a hypocrite to some degree. The argument that says you can't care about abuses in one area if you dont care about them in all areas is ridiculous. And you know it isn't that... It is saying that all of these things are the same when they are not. The advises are not the same. Not even close.

These folks know it but they would have to admit something and give up something they cannot fathom giving up. That would rather lie to themselves and everyone else. Same kind of logic cheaters use... Drug addicts... Etc.


----------



## jld

clipclop2 said:


> *You can't shame someone if there isn't already shame in them. * The guy who feels shame for watching porn and then is upset because someone points it out is already acting against his own moral code.
> 
> That's his problem, isn't it? His own code is being violated. By him. * Calling attention to it didn't cause the shame. * Preexisting condition.


:iagree:


----------



## ariel_angel77

richie33 said:


> Us....you speak for all women? Plenty of women on this very site watch porn.


Us=Those of us who are hurt by porn. Sorry I didn't specify. 

My bad, I just now saw this. lol


----------



## ariel_angel77

nuclearnightmare said:


> Ariel
> 
> I don't it's that hard to understand why a wife would feel that way. She has a legitimate gripe on that.
> 
> But it occurred to me......now I'm kind of curious what people here think. -- what about a wife that is your direct opposite? Ie barely interest to do it twice per year with her husband, let alone twice in one night. Might a husband be justified in starting up a blatant porn habit under those circumstances?? IMO yes. If for no other reason than to make a point.


I'm sorry I just now saw this. I personally don't believe porn is okay, but I also am vehemently against a woman withholding sex from her husband and I don't think she should be surprised if she finds her husband watching porn because of it. However, I think the man should be the bigger person and refrain from doing it IF he knows it hurts his wife. Also he must keep in mind that it could make it very easy for him to take it to the next level (chatting, live video with other women) since he is already more prone to being easily tempted. So, I guess my answer is that although I find it risky for anyone to watch porn, I find it even more risky for men who are not getting sex. I believe that instead of turning to porn they should find other ways to fix their marriage, i.e. rekindle romance, read books on the subject, go to marriage counseling.


----------



## clipclop2

Or divorce.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

clipclop2 said:


> You can't shame someone if there isn't already shame in them. The guy who feels shame for watching porn and then is upset because someone points it out is already acting against his own moral code.
> 
> That's his problem, isn't it? His own code is being violated. By him. Calling attention to it didn't cause the shame. Preexisting condition.


I'm sorry, but I think this is crap. Sexual concerns are generally closely held personal matters, not on public display.

"Shaming" isn't the act of revealing someone's shame. Its the act of getting others to think less of someone because the person shaming finds the act shameful. Shaming is the act of using coercive social pressure in an attempt to make someone feel bad for doing what YOU find shameful - the behavior you're opposed to - but they don't actually have a problem with. Its about enforcing social conformity. If a person does so, imo... they're not a fluffly subjective "lesser man or woman", they're objectively a d*ck.


----------



## clipclop2

If they do not find it shameful they will not be shamed.

Basically, you are saying that stating the reasons for my belief is shaming, because it is convincing to some. They may adopt the view or agree with it.

My only choice is to shut up.

Delete the thread then. Why discuss it? 

I think less of men who use porn. If that bugs you or anyone, that's on you / them. I would not choose you / them as a mate. And that is my right.


----------



## Shoto1984

Obviously there are male and female performers in porn. That said, an interesting angle might be to think about not having actual humans in the acts but CGI characters. Its not too far off by the looks of the tech advancements. Does that change anything for anyone, pro or con?


----------



## Jetranger

CGI porn is currently extremely creepy looking, I've only seen one or two clips which were even approaching erotic or arousing.

I think for many people it would be even worse, as you're not even getting off to real people now, but impossible, idealized imagery of them. 

What about anime porn (hentai), Shoto? There's tons of that already.


----------



## Shoto1984

Yep, I'm not taking a position I'm offering a thought for discussion. Some seem to be saying not wanting your daughter, sister etc performing in porn but viewing it yourself is hypocritical (a point I'm sympathetic to). So I'm wondering if it changes those views if the human performer is removed... It starts to split hairs but that's what makes a discussion like this interesting/challenging.


----------



## staarz21

Shoto1984 said:


> Obviously there are male and female performers in porn. That said, an interesting angle might be to think about not having actual humans in the acts but CGI characters. Its not too far off by the looks of the tech advancements. Does that change anything for anyone, pro or con?


That's an interesting angle and definitely would take away any exploitation that may be in the industry. 

Where there are pros, there are cons as well. 

It is already becoming a problem for some young men/women to become aroused by people who do not look like porn stars. They are obviously viewing way too much. With new generations becoming less self aware and having less self control, this opens doors for that to drop even further. 

If CGI was the only porn out there, I think it would cause the younger generations to really reject the real naked human body. With CGI you can do anything. It would be out there, but realistic looking characters would be few and far between because it's a fantasy world. 

Unfortunately, there are just some who cannot tell the difference between what reality is and what fantasy is. Those are the people that give the rest a bad name.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

clipclop2 said:


> If they do not find it shameful they will not be shamed.
> 
> Basically, you are saying that stating the reasons for my belief is shaming, because it is convincing to some. They may adopt the view or agree with it.
> 
> My only choice is to shut up.
> 
> Delete the thread then. Why discuss it?
> 
> I think less of men who use porn. If that bugs you or anyone, that's on you / them. I would not choose you / them as a mate. And that is my right.


I couldn't care less about your belief or your reasons - they are not what I'm addressing; when you or others come to castigate others for what they do with the language you use, you are in fact insulting and socially coercing others. Its little different from picking on someone for being nerdy or any other thing you don't prefer. You're perfectly within your right to be a d*ck if you so choose. That's on you. The fact of the matter is that you wouldn't be able to tell a man who watches porn from a man who doesn't. Quite a sweeping judgment you make.

What you're really saying is YOU are made uncomfortable by porn. Attacking the person who watches it is just a defensive rationalization: its not you, he's a lesser man.

You can prefer to not have a nerd for a mate, or a daredevil who similarly makes you uncomfortable... without claiming they're somehow lesser people. No one appointed you judge to say that one person is superior to another. You are entitled only to your own taste, and as such, your negative preference for watching porn is no different than a negative preference for someone who bites their nails. These are not lesser people for doing so just because you're not comfortable with it. Your choice to not date someone doesn't make them a lesser person either.


----------



## ariel_angel77

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I couldn't care less about your belief or your reasons - they are not what I'm addressing; when you or others come to castigate others for what they do with the language you use, you are in fact insulting and socially coercing others. Its little different from picking on someone for being nerdy or any other thing you don't prefer. You're perfectly within your right to be a d*ck if you so choose. That's on you. The fact of the matter is that you wouldn't be able to tell a man who watches porn from a man who doesn't. Quite a sweeping judgment you make.
> 
> What you're really saying is YOU are made uncomfortable by porn. Attacking the person who watches it is just a defensive rationalization: its not you, he's a lesser man.
> 
> You can prefer to not have a nerd for a mate, or a daredevil who similarly makes you uncomfortable... without claiming they're somehow lesser people. No one appointed you judge to say that one person is superior to another. You are entitled only to your own taste, and as such, your negative preference for watching porn is no different than a negative preference for someone who bites their nails. These are not lesser people for doing so just because you're not comfortable with it. Your choice to not date someone doesn't make them a lesser person either.


You think women who think less of men who watch porn look at them as a _nerd_ and are _picking on them?_ :wtf: Uh, you have no idea what you're talking about, clearly. It has nothing to do with that. It's because we find it very dishonorable that a man would find the exploitation of some random woman attractive to the point of masturbation. The fact that their SO wouldn't be enough. The fact that the feelings of their SO isn't enough for them to stop. The fact that they contribute to a very disgusting industry that emotionally destroys everyone in it (once you begin separating emotion from sex, it's very, very very hard to ever go back). That sex with no emotion is attractive.

There are many different reasons as to why women find men who watch porn repulsive, but the analogy you listed is FAR off base. I really don't even know how you came to that. Just shows how clouded the view is of those who watch porn.

Also, I agree with you clipclop. I don't want to be with someone who would support/watch that disgusting industry.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ariel_angel77 said:


> You think women who think less of men who watch porn look at them as a _nerd_ and are _picking on them?_


Its an analogy hon. Both are judgment of the quality/character of the man, based on YOUR preferences and worries - subjective. It would be like me saying an ugly or fat woman is a lesser woman.



ariel_angel77 said:


> It's because we find it very dishonorable that a man would find the exploitation of some random woman attractive to the point of masturbation.


The exploitation argument is a totally bunk rationalization for the preference. If that's the issue, then you wouldn't have a problem with watching real amateur porn - the sex videos that exhibitionists intentionally share. In them, no one is being exploited. Of course, we all know you'd still take issues with that porn too.



ariel_angel77 said:


> The fact that their SO wouldn't be enough. The fact that the feelings of their SO isn't enough for them to stop. The fact that they contribute to a very disgusting industry that emotionally destroys everyone in it (once you begin separating emotion from sex, it's very, very very hard to ever go back). That sex with no emotion is attractive.


Therein is the real issue, which has nothing to do with men. YOU feel that you wouldn't be enough; YOU feel that you can't compete with porn; YOUR insecurities. YOU believe sex and emotion must be one and the same. Anyone who doesn't share your views is "lesser". See what you did there?



ariel_angel77 said:


> There are many different reasons as to why women find men who watch porn repulsive, but the analogy you listed is FAR off base. I really don't even know how you came to that. Just shows how clouded the view is of those who watch porn.


There are many different reasons *some* women are repulsed by porn. I've actually never had a relationship with such a woman. One of my gfs actually watched more porn that I do. Is she a lesser person too? The analogy is spot on: the belief or treatment of others as some kind leper, or lesser being, for their tastes. Its not my view that is clouded - I'm not the one emotionally unhinged over competing with a video, poor acting and an anonymous virtual person... even if he has shredded abs and a giant c*ck. 

I can do a lot more to a woman's body than what she can accomplish with a big dildo and a vibrator while watching porn. You can't compete with pixels and a hand?



ariel_angel77 said:


> Also, I agree with you clipclop. I don't want to be with someone who would support/watch that disgusting industry.


You're entitled to that choice, but drop the pretense that things that rouse your insecurities and that you find distasteful; yet others enjoy, and are not bothered by - automatically make *them* lesser people. Its utterly meaningless and petty. Exactly the same as saying you are a lesser person for your insecurity ("the fact their SO isn't enough").


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening ariel_angel77
Why do you believe that the porn industry is exploiting women? Many are in it voluntarily because they are able to make far more money doing porn than flipping burgers. See the various internet discussions about the Duke Univ. undergrad who became a porn star. She earns as much in a day's work as she would earn in a month of a typical job. This allows her much more time for her studies. 

Surely women (and men) should have a right to sell their bodies if they want to. I don't think performing in porn is a good choice for many women, but for those who want to, I have no objection. 

I'm sure there are abusive porn producers, but you can find abuse in pretty much every industry.






ariel_angel77 said:


> You think women who think less of men who watch porn look at them as a _nerd_ and are _picking on them?_ :wtf: Uh, you have no idea what you're talking about, clearly. It has nothing to do with that. It's because we find it very dishonorable that a man would find the exploitation of some random woman attractive to the point of masturbation. The fact that their SO wouldn't be enough. The fact that the feelings of their SO isn't enough for them to stop. The fact that they contribute to a very disgusting industry that emotionally destroys everyone in it (once you begin separating emotion from sex, it's very, very very hard to ever go back). That sex with no emotion is attractive.
> 
> There are many different reasons as to why women find men who watch porn repulsive, but the analogy you listed is FAR off base. I really don't even know how you came to that. Just shows how clouded the view is of those who watch porn.
> 
> Also, I agree with you clipclop. I don't want to be with someone who would support/watch that disgusting industry.


----------



## jaharthur

Sure, some porn, maybe much of it, involves exploitation. But that exploitation is not a persuasive reason for the passionate hatred of porn expressed by some here--unless they show similar passion about the exploitation by the tech industry of people assembling products in China, or of Hollywood, or, perhaps the best examples, of the tobacco and alcohol industries, which have exploited exponentially more people and caused exponentially more damage.

BUT: (1) Someone who is addicted has a real problem that ruins the life of the addicted and his/her family. (2) If your partner hates it--and is ready, willing and able to satisfy your desires--then it's the height of disrespect and absence of love to continue.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone whose life has been ruined by an alcoholic spouse hates the alcohol industry with a passion. Those feelings are absolutely justified. But I don't think he or she is justified in painting the guy who has a glass of wine with dinner with the same brush.


----------



## tulsy

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ...
> 
> Therein is the real issue, which has nothing to do with men. YOU feel that you wouldn't be enough; YOU feel that you can't compete with porn; YOUR insecurities. YOU believe sex and emotion must be one and the same. Anyone who doesn't share your views is "lesser". See what you did there?
> 
> 
> You're entitled to that choice, but drop the pretense that things that rouse your insecurities and that you find distasteful; yet others enjoy, and are not bothered by - automatically make *them* lesser people. Its utterly meaningless and petty. Exactly the same as saying you are a lesser person for your insecurity ("the fact their SO isn't enough").


:iagree:

Brilliant.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I like amateur sex photos,the professional stuff is such a turn off. Either way,it doesn't make me a bad person or less of a woman. It doesn't make me immoral and disgusting either. It also doesn't mean I love my husband less or that he isn't enough.


----------



## richie33

ScarletBegonias said:


> I like amateur sex photos,the professional stuff is such a turn off. Either way,it doesn't make me a bad person or less of a woman. It doesn't make me immoral and disgusting either. It also doesn't mean I love my husband less or that he isn't enough.


Shocking enough you really love your husband. It doesn't take away the feelings for him. The anti porn people never really address when it's the wife who is watching porn.


----------



## mpgunner

ScarletBegonias said:


> I like amateur sex photos,the professional stuff is such a turn off. Either way,it doesn't make me a bad person or less of a woman. It doesn't make me immoral and disgusting either. It also doesn't mean I love my husband less or that he isn't enough.



I hear you. I have a few photo's of my wife I have snapped that I keep when I travel. Keeps a smile on my face.

My oldest son is in current social topics big time. (Didn't get it from me as I'm a software geek). He has often brought up the porn addiction topic that he sees in guys his age (20's and younger).

He says it is not uncommon, but very sad, that some young men addicted to porn do not know how to enjoy and please their wife because their "reality" is so skewed by the porn template of false priority and value. Make sense?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

mpgunner said:


> I hear you. I have a few photo's of my wife I have snapped that I keep when I travel. Keeps a smile on my face.
> 
> My oldest son is in current social topics big time. (Didn't get it from me as I'm a software geek). He has often brought up the porn addiction topic that he sees in guys his age (20's and younger).
> 
> He says it is not uncommon, but very sad, that some young men addicted to porn do not know how to enjoy and please their wife because their "reality" is so skewed by the porn template of false priority and value. Make sense?


Absolutely makes sense. I believe people can be addicted to porn and I also think too much porn use can cause major sexual issues. But I think in moderation it's not harmful. When you become too lost in the world of porn then you're going to have issues.


----------



## mpgunner

Here is another angle that happened last year and porn came up. 

My 3rd kid, 2nd son, was getting married last August. A great introvert kid who was getting married to a solid young lady. Of course, years before, we had several sex talks (and my wife taught him in her HS Biology class on reproduction) so he understand most of the stuff I think.

A week before the wedding myself, my wife and him are in the living room and he says "So this sex stuff seem kind of complicated, if you have any tips let me know" - I about spilled my coffee. Not an unusual statement coming from him but LOL. My wife said "If you have any questions ask your father...". But I was driving with him later in the day and we got talking about what to expect and I through out porn as a example. I said "Think about porn - what does it want you to think? It is all about the guy and what, supposedly, pleases the guy. I said, do the opposite and think/learn about what please her and have fun but it will take some time. Be patient and ask A LOT OF QUESTIONS". A year later they are back in town and it seems like they are leaning well. Anyway, we still get a laugh about that.


----------



## richie33

mpgunner said:


> I hear you. I have a few photo's of my wife I have snapped that I keep when I travel. Keeps a smile on my face.
> 
> My oldest son is in current social topics big time. (Didn't get it from me as I'm a software geek). He has often brought up the porn addiction topic that he sees in guys his age (20's and younger).
> 
> He says it is not uncommon, but very sad, that some young men addicted to porn do not know how to enjoy and please their wife because their "reality" is so skewed by the porn template of false priority and value. Make sense?


What young man ( 20 and younger ) knows how to please their wives with or without porn? It's all about themselves at that age.
Young woman are watching porn also, more so now than ever. Do they not know how to please their man because of porn?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I do not think that porn itself is bad, but some people can become addicted to porn and then it is bad for THEM. Sort of like gambling, alcohol, etc.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

FTR, when DH was single for years and years his only source of sexual stimulation was porn. It took him some time before he could properly respond to person on person stimulation. He struggled to change gears for a bit. He wasn't an addict either.He just used it once in a while to masturbate but it was over such a long period of time that it hurt his ability to connect physically with another person. He's good now but it was dicey at first.

I liken it to a woman using her vibrator to masturbate all the time. I can't even use one bc it makes it so difficult to have an orgasm with DH. It desensitized me. Just like overuse of porn can desensitize a person too.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> I like amateur sex photos,the professional stuff is such a turn off. Either way,it doesn't make me a bad person or less of a woman. It doesn't make me immoral and disgusting either. It also doesn't mean I love my husband less or that he isn't enough.


This. I like amateur stuff. Real people are erotic. I'm not a fan of the professional stuff and all the fakery. But to each his/her own.


----------



## m0nk

I think porn is a symptom of a sick society, not the cause. Men and women, IMO, both share the guilt. In answer to the question , yes, porn makes man (gender neutral "he"), lesser. Masturbation does not, provided this is discussed and both partners are sexually satisfied in a partnership. If one partner is HD and the other is LD, for example, as some have mentioned, masturbation may be the only form of release for the HD. But if the LD partner is choosing porn and masturbation over the willing HD partner, that's a red flag IMO/experience. That's the sign of other issues to come. This topic will continue to bounce back and forth...the bottom line is we are living in a morally sick and vapid society. Only by focusing on selflessness and not selfishness, the good of the collective and others first, will we see real change. This is merely a symptom of a greater issue. Namaste..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

So dvls, what you are doing is any different? Bull****. Look at your language.

You are exactly the same, only you want to defend and use porn. Thus you are a lesser man to me. Lucky you it doesn't matter... I'm not in your real life.., oddly though, it seems to matter to you despite saying you don't care what I believe.


----------



## clipclop2

I address women reading trash novels and using vibrators and also doing things that detract from their ability to relay p relate to their husbands. A woman using poem is only hurting herself as well. The topic was men however.

I really don't think there is a double standard that poem is on for women and not men.


----------



## jasmine9

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> Does using a vibrator make a woman a lesser woman?
> 
> End of discussion.


Porn and vibrators do not even compare.


----------



## Thundarr

Re: Does using porn make a man a lesser man? 

No that's a ridiculous notion. A lot of people get 'correlation' confused with 'cause and affect'. In other words there may be a correlation of lesser men being more likely to watch porn but that doesn't make it the cause.

Here's an example of correlation. 
Studies show a correlation that when the population eats more ice cream raises the crime rate increases. Obviously ice cream isn't the cause (which is how obvious the correlation in this thread is to me).


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

clipclop2 said:


> So dvls, what you are doing is any different? Bull****. Look at your language.


Where have I said you're a lesser woman for not liking porn? Have I called you a prude or anything else? No. Whether you like or dislike porn doesn't change anything about the quality of a person. *You* stated "she may feel like she's not enough", which is a statement of insecurity. Even that doesn't make you a lesser woman. My gf and I watch porn. Neither of us is insecure about it. What grants you the right to declare someone a lesser man? -that you don't like it? That's not a lesser man, that's a preference of yours meant to mitigate that insecurity. Your preferences are yours - they are about YOU and who you are, not someone else being greater or lesser. Because you have that preference, you're not with someone who watches porn... right? Judging what other people do and are comfortable with is asinine.



clipclop2 said:


> You are exactly the same, only you want to defend and use porn. Thus you are a lesser man to me. Lucky you it doesn't matter... I'm not in your real life.., oddly though, it seems to matter to you despite saying you don't care what I believe.


Remember that "cloud" you mentioned? Perhaps yours is preventing you from seeing that I'm not actually defending porn... I'm rejecting your judgment of those who don't have YOUR problem with it. Your discomfort with porn doesn't make me anything. Your problems are your problems.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

jasmine9 said:


> Porn and vibrators do not even compare.


lol they don't? Why is it ok to actually have sex with a facsimile penis, but not ok to *watch* people have sex?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening jasmine9
To me they seem to fulfill exactly the same function as masturbation aids. One is physical, one is psychological but otherwise they have the same effect.

Yes, porn can desensitize men to relationships with real women. Vibrators can desensitize women to physical intimacy with real men. Both can be used with a partner. Neither should be used instead of a partner if you partner is available and willing.





jasmine9 said:


> Porn and vibrators do not even compare.


----------



## Theseus

In this huge thread, has anyone tried to define "porn"? People have different standards on this. Some people even consider classic nude art to be obscene. The Art Museum in our city (Saint Louis) includes plenty of nudes. Would a man be a "lesser man" if he enjoyed looking at them?


----------



## richie33

That is a valid question. What one spouse feels is porn the other may not.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> In this huge thread, has anyone tried to define "porn"? People have different standards on this. Some people even consider classic nude art to be obscene. The Art Museum in our city (Saint Louis) includes plenty of nudes. Would a man be a "lesser man" if he enjoyed looking at them?


Exactly!

That's my point throughout this entire thread.

IMO, there is only one argument against porn that could stand honest scrutiny

Spiritual / Moral argument.
Ie: " _My religious beliefs forbids me to view porn etc, etc, etc..._"

I can understand that.

But saying that because a man looks at any depiction of the human female body partially or fully nude and / or uses it as a masturbation aid , it makes him a lesser man , because porn is degrading to women, to me is far out , and I can't understand where that is coming from.

So if he views a depiction of a naked male or transvestite and is aroused by it, how come that doesn't make him into a lesser man?

What about if he doesn't use any photographic, electronic or digital replication of the human , female body but use a mental image formed from an actual female he saw , probably in the streets , as a masturbation aid,
Will that too make him a lesser man?
Is he harming that woman?


----------



## Caribbean Man

richie33 said:


> That is a valid question. What one spouse feels is porn the other may not.


I think when people hear the word " porn ", we naturally begin to conjure up all sorts of mental imagery of people doing all sorts of sexual things we personally find distasteful.

Quite a lot of it is projection.

I imagine that some things my wife and I might do in bed , others might find distasteful and some things other couples might do in bed , I might find distasteful.

But that don't make them or us into lesser persons, does it?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Theseus said:


> In this huge thread, has anyone tried to define "porn"? People have different standards on this. Some people even consider classic nude art to be obscene. The Art Museum in our city (Saint Louis) includes plenty of nudes. Would a man be a "lesser man" if he enjoyed looking at them?


Hey, in middle school I'd wank while watching MTV. haha

Obviously, the only acceptable solution is to close your eyes while you masturbate (if you're allowed to do that), and imagine only your spouse/partner... because yeah, they're all that turns you on and their ego can suffer no less devotion than your every thought.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

When I think of porn I think of the cheesy movies,flashy pop up internet sites,and tumblr

Anything that gets you hot enough to jerk it other than your spouse in person can be considered pornographic depending on the person
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Theseus said:


> In this huge thread, has anyone tried to define "porn"? People have different standards on this. Some people even consider classic nude art to be obscene. The Art Museum in our city (Saint Louis) includes plenty of nudes. Would a man be a "lesser man" if he enjoyed looking at them?


Porn is that thing you use the internet for. I hear you can do other things on the internet but I don't know about that 

Seriously though I remember having to swipe my old mans penthouse and playboy. I couldn't imagine growing up I'm today's age with what is found on the internet. Not sure if it would be a good or bad thing lol


----------



## richie33

ScarletBegonias said:


> When I think of porn I think of the cheesy movies,flashy pop up internet sites,and tumblr
> 
> Anything that gets you hot enough to jerk it other than your spouse in person can be considered pornographic depending on the person
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/
> 
> Thats where issues come in to play. Men are visual, not sure that can be debated, so SI swimsuit, Victoria Secret catalog, etc can be used by a man to masterbate to. Most wouldn't label those pornographic but some here would. Is a man less of a man if he " used" those?


----------



## Healer

I guess that would depend on the couple. If the woman is hurt by her man's using porn, then it's hurtful. If she doesn't mind or even engages with him, then it's not.

I think it's a pretty common thing, especially in relationships where the sex life has dwindled or is non-existent. I used it when I wasn't getting sex very often, and didn't feel bad about it (when I was married).

I have a lover now and probably get laid 2-4 times a week and feel no desire to watch porn, or jerk off for that matter. I prefer to save myself up for the real thing.

I would say it makes a man less of a man if he's using porn _instead_ of banging his woman - if that opportunity is there. But if she's not giving it up, not interested, then wank away.


----------



## Theseus

Healer said:


> I would say it makes a man less of a man if he's using porn _instead_ of banging his woman - if that opportunity is there. But if she's not giving it up, not interested, then wank away.


That's a crude way of putting it, but I agree completely.


----------



## sparkyjim

Healer said:


> I would say it makes a man less of a man if he's using porn _instead_ of banging his woman - if that opportunity is there. But if she's not giving it up, not interested, then wank away.


And this is where I have a problem with the way porn is perceived... it seems like you are saying that porn is a solution to a problem, when I think that is not a solution, and instead might cause the problem to get worse...

If she is not giving it up, not interested, then try to figure out what you can do to improve yourself so that you become more interesting to her, and if that fails then really take the right steps to ensure that you will have a better sexual future.

Porn can become a crutch. There are some here who fully admit that they use it to stay in a sexless relationship.

I have less of a problem with porn than I do with the perception that many have that porn has no effect on relationships. If you are with a woman who has a problem with porn the easiest solution is not to use it. It's quite simple. If this is because she wants to have a fulfilling sexual relationship with you and just you then your golden. But if she is just trying to control you sexually then you will soon discover this and you will make steps to get out of that relationship.

But using porn "to get by" is not a solution to the problem.

Dealing with the problem - that is something that a real man will do.


----------



## cuchulain36

If your man is viewing porn and pleasuring himself often (assuming no OCD or addiction problems) it's because you're probably not taking care of him.

My wife gives me vanilla sex once a month if I'm lucky and wonders why I look at porn once a week. We're visual, we typically need the stimulus of porn to achieve O.

For reasons unknown to me my wife just isn't into sex with me, it's either there or it's not and it's not, so i'll jack it to porn if I have to.


----------



## Healer

sparkyjim said:


> And this is where I have a problem with the way porn is perceived... it seems like you are saying that porn is a solution to a problem, when I think that is not a solution, and instead might cause the problem to get worse...
> 
> If she is not giving it up, not interested, then try to figure out what you can do to improve yourself so that you become more interesting to her, and if that fails then really take the right steps to ensure that you will have a better sexual future.
> 
> Porn can become a crutch. There are some here who fully admit that they use it to stay in a sexless relationship.
> 
> I have less of a problem with porn than I do with the perception that many have that porn has no effect on relationships. If you are with a woman who has a problem with porn the easiest solution is not to use it. It's quite simple. If this is because she wants to have a fulfilling sexual relationship with you and just you then your golden. But if she is just trying to control you sexually then you will soon discover this and you will make steps to get out of that relationship.
> 
> But using porn "to get by" is not a solution to the problem.
> 
> Dealing with the problem - that is something that a real man will do.


No, divorce is a solution to my problem. But that's neither here nor there - this isn't about me.

And I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that there's something wrong with the man because his wife isn't giving him sex - and that it's his responsibility to somehow "improve" himself in order to be worthy of sex from his wife.

It's also insulting and arrogant to insinuate that men who watch porn because they're in a sexless marriage aren't "real men" because they're somehow being pussies and not dealing with some problem, that's apparently their fault.

Get off your high horse. You're no more a "real man" than anyone here, even those who watch porn, for whatever reason. Yours is the same attitude as those who point the finger at betrayed spouses and say "well you must not have been meeting her needs, so she cheated on you, and you had it coming". 

Watching porn isn't necessarily a "crutch" or some way of hiding from deeper problems within a marriage. Many people enjoy watching other people have sex - always have, always will. It doesn't necessarily make you a coward or dysfunctional or less of a man, or even incapable of meeting the needs of your s.o.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Healer said:


> It's also insulting and arrogant to insinuate that men who watch porn because they're in a sexless marriage aren't "real men" because they're somehow being pussies and not dealing with some problem, that's apparently their fault.
> 
> Get off your high horse.* You're no more a "real man" than anyone here, even those who watch porn, for whatever reason. Yours is the same attitude as those who point the finger at betrayed spouses and say "well you must not have been meeting her needs, so she cheated on you, and you had it coming".
> *
> Watching porn isn't necessarily a "crutch" or some way of hiding from deeper problems within a marriage. Many people enjoy watching other people have sex - always have, always will. It doesn't necessarily make you a coward or dysfunctional or less of a man, or even incapable of meeting the needs of your s.o.



And this^^^is the point I've been making all along.

Some people are opposed to porn for whatever reasons , that's their right. But what right have they to declare that others who aren't opposed to it, or those who are " _neither here nor there_ " on the issue of porn, are not " _ real men_?"

The same attitude exist in different areas of life, it is called discrimination.

A person is well within their rights to believe in any particular set of constructs that makes them feel good about themselves. Whether it is social ,gender , sex, politics or religion, that is part of what makes us human.

That's why we have movements like political organizations , churches and religions , and even social networks.

But using these artificial constructs to discriminate, imo amount to a type of self righteous aggrandizement.

I see quite a lot of it here and in some sections of the internet.


----------



## clipclop2

everyone involved on this thread has made judgements one way or another about people places and things. So knock it off. All you guys are doing right now is talking about talking. it's fairly ridiculous to ask a question like does using porn make a man a lesser man and not have people pronounce their perceptions. Because what else is a man but a perception?

and who the hell brought up man in sex with marriages? Once again there's a man acting like the victim as though he has no choice but to use porn. after all we've been told time and again that point isn't a substitute for real sex. So then what's the fascination? 

porn use is a form of sex.

a guy who wasn't getting any is doing more harm than good to his own sexual being by using porn. But hey that's fine we'll wait until he finally get someone who wants to have sex with him and he can't perform. can you call it nerves and a call in a million other things than what it was. He uses his hand and images that hit the brain like madness, like drugs. Something that real women cannot provide. No matter how much do you say you're attracted to someone you know it's not the same as the way porn hits your brain. 

people can feel free to wreck their lives anyway they want. 

and I reserve the right to state that I feel that a man who uses porn as a lesser man. 

I expect to hear no judgments by anyone who is making the arguments about being judgemental. I expect that holds true on every single thread regardless of how strongly you feel about an issue. because Lord knows you don't want us all calling you out on being a hypocrite. Being judgmental.


----------



## Healer

clipclop2 said:


> everyone involved on this thread has made judgements one way or another about people places and things. So knock it off. All you guys are doing right now is talking about talking. it's fairly ridiculous to ask a question like does using porn make a man a lesser man and not have people pronounce their perceptions. Because what else is a man but a perception?
> 
> and who the hell brought up man in sex with marriages? Once again there's a man acting like the victim as though he has no choice but to use porn. after all we've been told time and again that point isn't a substitute for real sex. So then what's the fascination?
> 
> porn use is a form of sex.
> 
> a guy who wasn't getting any is doing more harm than good to his own sexual being by using porn. But hey that's fine we'll wait until he finally get someone who wants to have sex with him and he can't perform. can you call it nerves and a call in a million other things than what it was. He uses his hand and images that hit the brain like madness, like drugs. Something that real women cannot provide. No matter how much do you say you're attracted to someone you know it's not the same as the way porn hits your brain.
> 
> people can feel free to wreck their lives anyway they want.
> 
> and I reserve the right to state that I feel that a man who uses porn as a lesser man.
> 
> I expect to hear no judgments by anyone who is making the arguments about being judgemental. I expect that holds true on every single thread regardless of how strongly you feel about an issue. because Lord knows you don't want us all calling you out on being a hypocrite. Being judgmental.


You totally nailed it on the head - except for paragraphs 1 through 7. 

You say everyone in this thread is being judgmental? You need to consult the Googles on some definitions. I'd say yours is the most judgmental and presumptuous post in this entire thread. It's also one of the most inaccurate. Congratulations.


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## richardsharpe

Good afternoon clipclop2
As other discussions have shown, there are some men and women with almost no interest in sex. It isn't a fault of their partners, they just don't want sex. 

For a person with normal sexual interests in such a relationship, what do you suggest? Isn't masturbation a better alternative than divorce - assuming the rest of the relationship is OK? If someone does masturbate, what does it matter what sex aids they use? Would you fault a woman whos husband only touches here once every month or so for using a vibrator? Would you fault a man whos wife only touches him once a month for masturbating to porn?

Most of these people HAVE tried to fix their relationships, and have given up. 




clipclop2 said:


> everyone involved on this thread has made judgements one way or another about people places and things. So knock it off. All you guys are doing right now is talking about talking. it's fairly ridiculous to ask a question like does using porn make a man a lesser man and not have people pronounce their perceptions. Because what else is a man but a perception?
> 
> and who the hell brought up man in sex with marriages? Once again there's a man acting like the victim as though he has no choice but to use porn. after all we've been told time and again that point isn't a substitute for real sex. So then what's the fascination?
> 
> porn use is a form of sex.
> 
> a guy who wasn't getting any is doing more harm than good to his own sexual being by using porn. But hey that's fine we'll wait until he finally get someone who wants to have sex with him and he can't perform. can you call it nerves and a call in a million other things than what it was. He uses his hand and images that hit the brain like madness, like drugs. Something that real women cannot provide. No matter how much do you say you're attracted to someone you know it's not the same as the way porn hits your brain.
> 
> people can feel free to wreck their lives anyway they want.
> 
> and I reserve the right to state that I feel that a man who uses porn as a lesser man.
> 
> I expect to hear no judgments by anyone who is making the arguments about being judgemental. I expect that holds true on every single thread regardless of how strongly you feel about an issue. because Lord knows you don't want us all calling you out on being a hypocrite. Being judgmental.


----------



## Wolf1974

clipclop2 said:


> everyone involved on this thread has made judgements one way or another about people places and things. So knock it off. All you guys are doing right now is talking about talking. it's fairly ridiculous to ask a question like does using porn make a man a lesser man and not have people pronounce their perceptions. Because what else is a man but a perception?
> 
> and who the hell brought up man in sex with marriages? Once again there's a man acting like the victim as though he has no choice but to use porn. after all we've been told time and again that point isn't a substitute for real sex. So then what's the fascination?
> 
> porn use is a form of sex.
> 
> a guy who wasn't getting any is doing more harm than good to his own sexual being by using porn. But hey that's fine we'll wait until he finally get someone who wants to have sex with him and he can't perform. can you call it nerves and a call in a million other things than what it was. He uses his hand and images that hit the brain like madness, like drugs. Something that real women cannot provide. No matter how much do you say you're attracted to someone you know it's not the same as the way porn hits your brain.
> 
> people can feel free to wreck their lives anyway they want.
> 
> and I reserve the right to state that I feel that a man who uses porn as a lesser man.
> 
> I expect to hear no judgments by anyone who is making the arguments about being judgemental. I expect that holds true on every single thread regardless of how strongly you feel about an issue. because Lord knows you don't want us all calling you out on being a hypocrite. *Being judgmental*.


You, sparkyjim, and select few others used the term "lesser man" so I find it hilarious that you would use the word judgmental. I haven't seen people on the opposite opinion calling you uptight, ridged, controlling, and so forth and so on. So maybe throwing around names isn't the best way to share your viewpoint. I could care less if you think porn use makes me anything. I find your summation about it as ridiculous as I'm sure you find mine. But as outlandish as your posts are I do have a question. 

You state that a guy who isn't getting any is doing more harm than good by viewing porn. So my question is if they can't get any, and can't use porn, what would you advise them to do? Just simply live a monk existence ?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

clipclop2 said:


> everyone involved on this thread has made judgements one way or another about people places and things. So knock it off. All you guys are doing right now is talking about talking. it's fairly ridiculous to ask a question like does using porn make a man a lesser man and not have people pronounce their perceptions. Because what else is a man but a perception?
> 
> and who the hell brought up man in sex with marriages? Once again there's a man acting like the victim as though he has no choice but to use porn. after all we've been told time and again that point isn't a substitute for real sex. So then what's the fascination?
> 
> porn use is a form of sex.
> 
> a guy who wasn't getting any is doing more harm than good to his own sexual being by using porn. But hey that's fine we'll wait until he finally get someone who wants to have sex with him and he can't perform. can you call it nerves and a call in a million other things than what it was. He uses his hand and images that hit the brain like madness, like drugs. Something that real women cannot provide. No matter how much do you say you're attracted to someone you know it's not the same as the way porn hits your brain.
> 
> people can feel free to wreck their lives anyway they want.
> 
> and I reserve the right to state that I feel that a man who uses porn as a lesser man.
> 
> I expect to hear no judgments by anyone who is making the arguments about being judgemental. I expect that holds true on every single thread regardless of how strongly you feel about an issue. because Lord knows you don't want us all calling you out on being a hypocrite. Being judgmental.


Funny, when I have the real thing available I take it every time. When I don't, I'll watch porn. As amazingly narcotic and addictive as you claim porn is, it has somehow never stopped me from wanting and going after the real thing.

Your hubby apparently chose porn over you, and you blame the porn instead of blaming your hubby and HIS choices/preferences. "Its not the alcoholic, its the alcohol!!" Then, you apply your hubby's problem to every other man... a wild assumption. I'd argue that the majority of men would not choose porn over the real thing. Your experience of one who did completely distorts your perspective.

If there exist plenty of men and women who watch porn without your insecurities and have no issue pursuing real sex or performing in bed, how can you claim porn watching makes anyone lesser? Solely because you don't like it? So if you have a drink once in awhile, and I'm a strict teetotaler adamantly against alcohol... I'm justified in calling you a lesser person? Can you even see how this may be applied to literally anything at all... and forms no rational basis of judging the quality of a person whatsoever? What you describe is a preference of YOURS, not an indictment of others. That you use your preference to castigate others, makes you judgmental and coercive by definition. Is this a "greater person" in your eyes?

I personally don't make it my business to declare who is a greater or lesser person based on my own preferences. It you're going to judge, at least have a consistent moral framework as the basis... not your own behavior preferences. The latter is like automatically declaring a woman a sl*t because she wears revealing clothes. Its an excessive leap.

Heads up, most of us aren't making your husband's choices. Choosing porn OVER a partner that desires sex may make a man a poor husband, but a lesser man? No. Who are you to judge his preferences and say what he should like? If he wants porn more than reality, so be it... leave him for someone who doesn't - ie, most of us. But it doesn't make anyone greater or lesser people.


----------



## ocotillo

clipclop2 said:


> everyone involved on this thread has made judgements one way or another about people places and things. So knock it off. All you guys are doing right now is talking about talking. it's fairly ridiculous to ask a question like does using porn make a man a lesser man and not have people pronounce their perceptions. Because what else is a man but a perception?


It would be wrong to put words into your mouth, clipclop2, and I'm not trying to do that.

But if you are saying that value judgements about others are purely a matter of personal perception and as such are entirely subjective, (And again, I'm not saying that you are.) then I'm going to disagree because that is just a fancy way to describe prejudice.


----------



## over20

richie33 said:


> ScarletBegonias said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I think of porn I think of the cheesy movies,flashy pop up internet sites,and tumblr
> 
> Anything that gets you hot enough to jerk it other than your spouse in person can be considered pornographic depending on the person
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/
> 
> Thats where issues come in to play. Men are visual, not sure that can be debated, so SI swimsuit, Victoria Secret catalog, etc can be used by a man to masterbate to. Most wouldn't label those pornographic but some here would. Is a man less of a man if he " used" those?
> 
> 
> 
> NO
Click to expand...


----------



## ScarletBegonias

over20 said:


> richie33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO
> 
> 
> 
> :scratchhead: No to what? My opinion? Richie's opinion?
> 
> If you're going to quote multiple people,do it correctly so it doesn't look like one person said the whole comment.
Click to expand...


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## DoF

ScarletBegonias said:


> When I think of porn I think of the cheesy movies,flashy pop up internet sites,and tumblr
> 
> Anything that gets you hot enough to jerk it other than your spouse in person can be considered pornographic depending on the person
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Even a beautiful woman walking down the street? 

Or some woman in a movie or something?

There is MILLIONS of things that can get us "hot enough to jerk it".


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## ScarletBegonias

DoF said:


> Even a beautiful woman walking down the street?
> 
> Or some woman in a movie or something?
> 
> There is MILLIONS of things that can get us "hot enough to jerk it".



Who are we to tell someone what they should consider pornographic or not pornographic? That's all I'm saying. There are cultures who consider showing any skin at all to be pornographic. 


It's up to each person to decide what they consider pornographic then they have to find another person on this planet who can live with that definition or someone who has a similar definition.


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## DoF

ScarletBegonias said:


> Who are we to tell someone what they should consider pornographic or not pornographic? That's all I'm saying. There are cultures who consider showing any skin at all to be pornographic.
> 
> 
> It's up to each person to decide what they consider pornographic then they have to find another person on this planet who can live with that definition or someone who has a similar definition.


Who are we to tell someone what they should like or not like or if those actions make them a man or not?


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## ScarletBegonias

DoF said:


> Who are we to tell someone what they should like or not like or if those actions make them a man or not?


exactly. That's what makes the whole thread so ridiculous.


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## jaharthur

ScarletBegonias said:


> exactly. That's what makes the whole thread so ridiculous.


Wait a minute. If we enforce a ridiculous rule, how many threads would be left?


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## ScarletBegonias

jaharthur said:


> Wait a minute. If we enforce a ridiculous rule, how many threads would be left?


They're interesting,no need to get rid of them IMO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoto1984

I wonder if you did a poll in the Ladies Lounge asking "Does using porn make a woman a lesser woman?" what that discussion would look like.....


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## DvlsAdvc8

Shoto1984 said:


> I wonder if you did a poll in the Ladies Lounge asking "Does using porn make a woman a lesser woman?" what that discussion would look like.....


No no... that's just female empowerment and comfort with their sexuality.


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## Lyris

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This. I like amateur stuff. Real people are erotic. I'm not a fan of the professional stuff and all the fakery. But to each his/her own.





ScarletBegonias said:


> I like amateur sex photos,the professional stuff is such a turn off. Either way,it doesn't make me a bad person or less of a woman. It doesn't make me immoral and disgusting either. It also doesn't mean I love my husband less or that he isn't enough.



Do you mean professional porn made to look amateur, or actual amateur porn, where ordinary people upload their own photos and videos?


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## Created2Write

Short answer: if it hurts the woman they've committed to, then yes.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Lyris said:


> Do you mean professional porn made to look amateur, or actual amateur porn, where ordinary people upload their own photos and videos?


Actual amateur stuff with flawed, ordinary people. Real people having real sex.


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## Lyris

Oh ok. A friend of mine was telling me about those kinds of sites and to be honest, I'd rather my husband looked at professional stuff, which he does on occasion. 

The amateur ones seem like breeding grounds for Internet affairs because of the possibility of interaction and emotional entanglements, which isn't really there on the professional sites.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Lyris said:


> Oh ok. A friend of mine was telling me about those kinds of sites and to be honest, I'd rather my husband looked at professional stuff, which he does on occasion.
> 
> The amateur ones seem like breeding grounds for Internet affairs because of the possibility of interaction and emotional entanglements, which isn't really there on the professional sites.


Its not specific to a certain kind of site. Its more like a fraction of the vids on a given amateur section of any site.

A few sites that accept uploading have dating or commenting components, but not most; and most of the uploaded videos are by "couple" accounts. I guess that could be affair territory if the couple is interested in a third. The sites I've seen are global though. You'd really have to really be trying to find someone local. Totally honest, you're not going to find an affair there unless you're really trying (hard) for one in the first place.


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## Lyris

Right. I think we're talking about different things.


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## DvlsAdvc8

What are you thinking... like video chat? cams? No. Not my thing.


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## ScarletBegonias

No video chat or cam for me. Just tumblr. I fell into the user upload thing and it nearly ruined my marriage. F**k that stuff. I have learned a valuable lesson about boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo

ScarletBegonias said:


> Who are we to tell someone what they should consider pornographic or not pornographic? That's all I'm saying. There are cultures who consider showing any skin at all to be pornographic.


SB,

I wonder if you're thinking more along the lines of the erotic? 

There was a minister in my wife's church waving his finger from the rostrum one Sunday while he declared that women's clothing catalogs are often pornographic. I'm not sure what he had in mind, but would guess it was probably those sections where lingerie and underwear were modeled. Or maybe he was thinking more along the lines of Victoria's Secret. I don't know.

Since my youngest majored in art history and sometimes left out textbooks where my wife's family could see them, this became an issue in my house. Some of my wife's family claimed that my daughter's major was really just institutionalized porn.

This is what I pointed out to them: Pornography is actually not a subjective term. It doesn't describe the inducement of a mental state like, "Arouse" or "Excite" or "Provoke" or "Titillate" or "Tease."

Many people find various forms of pornography to be erotic, but if the material in question falls under the umbrella of the word's linguistic, literary or legal definitions, then it is still pornography regardless of whether anyone finds it erotic or not. 

So it's really not a synonym for words like, "Erotic" or "Prurient" or "Lewd" or "Suggestive." What is erotic will vary greatly from person to person because it is a subjective mental state. "Pornography" however is a "thing" with fairly precise objective definitions; not a subjective mental state. And pornography is by definition, sexually explicit or obscene. 

Goya's _La maja desnuda_ for example is not pornographic. Ditto for Botticelli's _Birth of Venus_, Michelangelo's _David_, Pollaiuolo's _Battle of Naked Men_, Lombardo's _Eurydice_, etc., etc., etc.

All of us inject a little subjectivity into the words we use, but that's why we have dictionaries to keep us all on the same page.


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## LongWalk

Hi SB. Hope you straightened everything out. Folks were sad to think you were struggling.


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat

I love football and shameless watch it. I would not like my son to play the game because the risk of injury is too high. The players in the NFL are willingly taking a risk chasing the $$, same for porn stars. 

I consume porn occasionally but, will would not want either of my kids in that industry.


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## newbees

No enjoying porn with your love ones or alone is the sign your loyalty to your relationship.


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