# Confusion over MMSL and who dominates who!



## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Lots of even more confusing and devastating background story could be found on my older posts but some of it's is already irrelevant. To put it shortly, me and my H have had a rough couple of years. But things have gotten better. Only now other things have gotten worse.

I was always the Lower Drive spouse, he was always the Higher Drive spouse. In the beginning I was inexperienced and sexually closed off. He .. well, hated it. He didn't _encourage_ me to open up. He told me to do it. I was pissed for a while but then, I did it. I thought he was right. And I feel much more liberated now. However, at no point did I gain more desire _for him._ 

I find my H hot. I think when he wants he can be *amazing* in bed. I yearn to cuddle next to him but I don't .. _lust_ over him.

As it happens, I just ran into the book Married Man's Sex Life. And some of it rings a bell so loudly that my ears are ringing. My H is insecure. He is jealous (not in the hot "Oh no you don't, this girl is mine." *butt squeeze* -manner. But in the questioning-me-about-everything-and-everyone -manner.). He requires a lot of encouragement and reassurance of my feelings. He is not physically active. When he get upset, feels neglected or frustrated about something, he more often comes off as scared in panic then calmly addressing the issue and putting me in my place.

And a short while ago I noticed I don't feel like having sex with him. I still think he is physically hot. And I think he's an awesome person. And he can be very cute and gentle. But he doesn't make me feel sexy, and I don't feel like being sexy for him (I'm expecting not to get turned on, or even to get turned down).

I found parts of the MMSL book sexist and some idiotic but as said, some of it is really true. I DO realize I would want my man to be a more balanced combination of the "positive" Alpha and the "positive" Beta. Whereas at the moment there's too much insecurity and on the other hand uncontrolled aggression.

So lately I have been starting to feel pi**ed off and like he cannot do anything right. Actually he's trying so hard! But I don't want him to be a doormat. I want him to take responsibility.

On the other hand the one to do these "Tests" in our relationship is more him. To give him that thing he could very well get himself, getting upset if I don't. To set up the stage for me to offer him help with something (of his) and get furious if I don't. He has told it to me loud and clear: he loved it when in the beginning I was more "easy going". Helped him willingly and served him out of pleasure to do so.

But I started to resent it because — as I thought — I didn't get to have my say. I started to feel like I was disappearing. I didn't feel like myself anymore, as I wasn't expressing my own needs. Then I started to express them and he can't stand it. Lately, we have only some days or weeks of calm and otherwise pure madness, not getting our emotions heard.

But after reading this book I wonder: is there a chance that I also started to resent it because he didn't prove himself to be the leader I wanted to serve? Because he showed more weakness (And really, I don't need a macho man. I LIKE for a man to show his emotions and be vulnerable with me. But he should bear his own weight.) — and I started to feel unsafe: he is not strong enough to protect me? He's intimidated by ME. Add in the fact that I lost about 25 pounds after we started dating and, although I'm not playboy hot, am decent looking. He's handsome himself, but has put on about half of what I lost during the same time. And gotten out of shape. Anyway.

So it's a mess. But now that I have this "knowledge". Do you guys think it would be coming to play in our case? Or am I just looking for an easy solution where _I_ am not the (only) one at fault, but one that would mean he would have to bear responsibility for this? I am quite sick of being blamed for all our problems so I wouldn't rule that out. I would probably love an explanation that would really force him to work on himself.

I'm not sure I'm looking for something exactly like the r/s the writer of the book has. I am a pretty stubborn lady and like to think of myself as strong and self-sufficient. But there is great truth in the notion that I don't want to feel this much strong_er_ than my spouse. I want him to be my match. And, at times, I want him to command me, but not with fear or humiliation or belittling. But with a firm stance that forces me to take responsibility of my own stuff. The former happens in our r/s a bit, and I can very rarely respond maturely. Most of the times I just want to rebel such nonesense. 

IF this would be coming to play in our case, how on earth do you tell an insecure person that "I'm just not that hot for you anymore because of your insecurities." ? I expect it to be met with heeps of defensive counter-attacks.

Any thoughts? They will all be appreaciated.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh, to add to my sexual confusion: He keeps beating around the bush about what kind of sex he actually likes. He will say he enjoys or not, if something out of the ordinary happens, but he won't discuss it. He finds talking about sex uncomfortable. I have no idea what kind of fantasies he's hiding and have started to feel uncomfortable about it. He even feels uncomfortable about me talking about my preferences to him. He thinks sex should just happen, talking about it kills it for him. But how on earth am I supposed to know what he wants if he can't talk about it?! Grrr, I hate that.

Okay rant over.

I truly hope someone will take the time to read this through and offer some insight. Even if it is for me to get my head out of my rear and stop finding faults from my H and concentrate on myself.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Have you thought of sharing the book with him? It would be hard for a man to read the book and not get to some serious thinking because so much of it is not how we have been taught to be gentlemen.

My wife is as stubborn and headstrong as they come and most of what is in MMSL has effected positive change for us. She has not read the book but has stumbled across some e-mails I get from the blog. She specifically says "she does not want to be dominated" but sometimes she does....


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

I have thought about it. I just don't know how to do it without it coming off as: "I think you're a wuss, man up." You see, he's not a reader. There's no way to hint that it might be his interest or arouse his curiosity. I would have to shove it down his throat. And to be honest, I think he would think some of the book is too @ssholish. I think so too. But he is quick to judge things by first impression so I really don't think he would get really far in it unless I require him to read through it all..

Of course I could still try. But how would you best like to be approched with it? I can't seem to think of a gentle way to present the idea, one that wouldn't automatically provoke all those insecurities of his..


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

If you leave a book with that title lay around he would have no curiosity about that and pick it up? I know what you mean about the a**holish parts but the writing style is overall amusing and his audience is largely men. My wife read an e-mail from MMSL that said something like "No sex, GTFO". I heard about that one "great place to get relationship advice".

Can you find a way to position it so that he can use the book to help himself. He probably has some thoughts about what is going well or not as well as he'd like between you. Can you make the book the answer? If it is the answer to your needs/ideas sorry...but that's less compelling...we are still guys after all. You did say he was HD so you probably have that drive working for you. I think you can have faith that if he does the MAP, you will have the _desire_ to go where he takes you.

It is worrisome that he is not a reader because many people who don't read, really don't read. I wonder if his insecurities keep him from telling you how he truly feels as far as intimacy. Its not easy to discuss so maybe he would be open to some knowledge.

You know, sometimes I think to make resounding, positive change, you have to take a risk. Maybe tell him you would like become a more intimate couple and refer to the parts about pair bonding/oxytocin and some of sexy moves. He will just come across the alpha stuff and I'd be surprised if he didn't take notice. If he started working on sex rank you would know immediately.


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## joshbjoshb (Jul 11, 2011)

If you want to make your husband more aggressive, and secure, you should not read books of self help for man because you are not one.

Go buy "the surrendered wife". It's an amazing book IMHO (I am a man) that help women make their husband more secure and more alpha.

My wife got it, read it and doesn't practice any  so no help for me there. I read the no more mr. nice guy book that was a huge help for me personally, and would prob. be a huge help for your husband. But you cannot be the one "forcing" him to change. In fact, you "making" him more attractive to you will actually make him LESS secure, and it will turn you off even more.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

There are ways you can help your H with his self esteem, but you have to be willing to swallow the resentment and focus on guiding him, not telling. You also have to KNOW yourself. Be sure about what it is exactly that you need. Sometimes getting angry is a sign that you aren't getting your emotional needs met. 

I can empathsize with you, I tend to view my H as weak as well.
I did buy him the MMSL book and he's not a reader either. But he did eventually go to counselling which helped some.

I also went to counselling. And I realised a few things about myself. Pinning how much I desire my H based on his actions for the past few days can be a tailspin. I'll always find something wrong, some reason, keep raising the bar, and he'll never be good enough. 

So there does need to be a balance there. Learn to accept some of his behaviors, learn to focus on his good qualities, and "teach" by reaction. By that I mean when he does things that do make you feel desire, make sure he knows. Tell him. Encourage it. Tell him when he does things that make you feel special, wanted. If it hasn't happened for awhile, tell him what did make you feel that way in the past. 

For the non-readers, there is also a video series from marriage builders that gives an overview of his needs her needs. It's quick, but gives the message.
Ignore the rest.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

*joshbjoshb*, Touché. 

I glanced over this book but honestly, based on the reviews I don't want to spend my money on it. I agree with the principals: let go of control over my H's life, trust his decisions about his own life, keep myself in shape and attractive looking, express my gratitude over the things my H does. And I do these. Where I can improve is taking care of my own happiness: do things that I enjoy and maintain relationships to my friends and family.

However, I don't think I need this book for this. Especially since I read in the reviews it encourages to "not tell my husband advice, even if he asks". He would get mad at me for it.  I never say "I told you so." and I try to always to remember to ask whether or not he wants to hear my advice. I do agree that I could shut up about my opinion or side of things sometimes. I tend to be a bit too out-spoken for his liking at times. There is also no way he would become the financial leader of our household, and he himself would panic at the idea. He says it himself: he hates paying bills and would always push it off as far as he possibly can.

So, I think I already own other books I can use to help me with this part. In addition to already being in IC for my own issues and helping me to rewire the disfunctional ways of dealing with feelings I learned in my FOO.

However, I do strongly agree that there is no way for me to FORCE this change on him. Nor should I. And it's true I cannot even tell him to read this book, it wouldn't be the same as him reading it on his own. Hence the confusion.


*deejov*, Thank you for your reply. 

I think you hit the nail in the head with _resentment_ there.
I always thought I wasn't harboring it, but lately I notice how much of it is actually there. 

Resentment over the fact that despite me trying to lead by example, he belittles me, judges me and shuts me down. Or explodes in a frenzy.

But then again eventhough I've tried I am by no means an angel myself. I am still learning. Today there was an incident where I thought he was trying to hurt my feelings. Six months ago I would've not adressed the issue but gotten sullen and upset, giving him a half-assed response and then being passive aggressive in my actions towards him afterwards. Today I stopped and said: "Hey, when you said that I felt X. I don't feel good about you talking to me like that." He was naturally totally clueless about the affect of his words on me, apologized and rephrased it. Afterwards we congratulated ourselves for a job well done. For once we managed to NOT escalate something!  

I could still more attention to what it is that he IS doing and show gratitude for that. I'm a firm believer of learning through praise rather than punishment so I should show him that too.

One thing you also got right that I don't have a crystal clear image of what is IS that I would want. I have been working through it in therapy and on my own, but it's still a work-in-progress. The more I dig into it the clearer it gets though. 

So there's hope, I guess. I hope.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

It is kinda disheartening to read the book, and think "yeah, that's how I want my H to behave" and know that there isn't a magic pill that would make him act that way. 

Would I want the perfect man? No way. Most men can behave "manly" at times. That's enough for most of us. And realistically.... most of us women over a certain age would not want a 100% MMSL man. Women's lib. There isn't much you can gain from reading the book other than male insight. 

The key is often the male self esteem. 
And I hate to bring this up, but google passive aggressive behavior in men. Nothing is their fault, ever. They won't make decisions, because that puts them at blame if isn't the right decision. They change their minds constantly about what they want to do. They show anger and aggression in response to being "called out" for being responsible for their own actions and behaviors. 

Some say it's just lazy. Some say it's being passive aggressive, and it's all a big defense mechanism for low self esteem. They don't think they will succeed, so they throw up all these barriers and blame everyone else for what's really going on. They are scared to try. 

You might ask him to do something... he picks a fight about it instead. And you get angry, or emotional. Which is JUST the point. 
You get hooked in all the time, without even realising it. 

Good for you for recognizing it and be assertive. You need boundaries, and you need to enforce them. Know how you expect people to treat you, and work on calmly asserting that boundary.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Ladies, you can't command a guy to be more "manly". They will have it in them or they will have to fake it. But you really can't force the issue.

But you can, on your side, expect them to take the lead. Let them form the idea that they are expected to lead at times. Do this and even stick with it when the results aren't so hot at times. 

Many men that have this sort of problem didn't have an effective male figure to show them how to poise themselves. They were raised by their mothers or had and absent/submissive father. They really don't know any better.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

The only way I know to get a man to take responsibility in this type situation is to give it to him.

Now that doesn't mean be a doormat yourself, disappear, not have needs or boundaries it means study the dynamic and change it from your end not from his. You have no control over what he does. You can learn to love him AS IS or you will continue to struggle.

I suggest you read the book Fascinating Womanhood.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Thank you *costa* and *Mavash* for your comments!
This is what I was looking for, asking which approach to take and whether to ignore how HE should change and instead focus on my own growth. Latter should be the answer, as always. 

I got myself some sort of version the book Fascinating Womanhood and have read the first few "Secrets". I must say, parts of this book really make me squirm in my chair. But eventhough I will never become the perfect Stepford Wife it suggests, I do have a lot to improve. Focusing on my H's good qualities instead of his flaws should be a given, but lately I have fallen to the trap of resentment and contemptment. With the help of the start of the book I already dug myself up quite a bit.

And I got my encouragement when about 20 minutes after giving my H notice of how proud I was of him working so hard on his own business, he came back and thanked me for my kind words earlier. He does have a need to be admired!

The irony is, that the fact that I grew resentful of him is because I didn't feel admired. I have a need to feel adored like the next gal, but I also have a need to feel respected, as an individual with my own thoughts and opinions, as a person of my own needs, and as a professional of my own career and creativity. Feeling undermined and belittled is why I lost my admiration for my husband in the first place. I am willing to give this method a try, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't at all suspicious of it working.

I dare say I was raised into one of the most equal societies on this planet, so accepting this whole "Your husband shall rule over you" -thing sounds pretty foreign. At the same I would like to see my husband being more strong, not completely but towards the way described in the MMSL. I guess I have to admit to myself that I would rather be strong, and have him be _stronger_ than seeing him weak and feel like I have to make myself weaker. But this is of course mostly a question of perspective. When looking at the brighter side of him, I see him as stronger than me. Should concentrate on that attitude I guess than.

Again thank you for the recommendation!


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> The only way I know to get a man to take responsibility in this type situation is to give it to him.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean be a doormat yourself, disappear, not have needs or boundaries it means study the dynamic and change it from your end not from his. You have no control over what he does. You can learn to love him AS IS or you will continue to struggle.
> 
> I suggest you read the book Fascinating Womanhood.


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I first read fascinting woman 8 years ago and like you I squirmed too. After I studied more I realized it wasn't about me losing MY strength it was about building up his. I'm still quite the powerful woman but now I use my power for good and I'm more than willing to let him take charge (it's hot actually). Just knowing I CAN do things on my own is enough. I don't need to run the show anymore. 

It is our curse to try and control men but when we do that we lose what makes them great. If you give them back their freedom to be men they give it back in ways you can't even begin to imagine. I'm living it now and let me tell you I'll never ever go back to the woman I once was.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

> After I studied more I realized it wasn't about me losing MY strength it was about building up his. I'm still quite the powerful woman but now I use my power for good and I'm more than willing to let him take charge (it's hot actually). Just knowing I CAN do things on my own is enough. I don't need to run the show anymore.


This makes sense to me. I realize I have a habit of wanting to control too much, and I would be better off just letting things slide more. In fact, I used to do that. But things turned sour in our relationship and I didn't want to stay quiet anymore. However, I didn't choose the right way nor the correct words to speak up. I can see many thigns where I should correct my course.

Yet, I find myself deeply troubled by one aspect of this, and unable to figure out how to put it into use:

I make more money than my husband. In fact, soon there will be a short time when I will be the sole breadwinner as he has to rearrange his business. After that, I will still be likely to be the bread-winner and he will be working from home. I know that he is terrified of the idea of having me provide for him. I can understand his feeling because, in fact, I would dislike that too if the tables were turned. But I don't know how to approach this situation from the "Fascinating Woman's" point of view. I keep telling him I'm proud of him for his work and efforts, and excited for his successes (I've done this for a long time already, and truly believe it) — but it doesn't take away the fact that I'm the one putting foor on the table. And we both know it.


((( Sorry to talk about all this lady stuff here in the Man Cave. I thought this would be a topic for the males to respond, but as it happens I should've just directed to the ladies as the solution lies within myself, not my man. )))


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I used to be the breadwinner too. It did not bode well for my husband's manliness. He needed to provide for me and will readily admit that now that he does. I'm a homemaker now.

A warning about implementing this. He WILL fail. I guarantee it. I spent years rescuing and enabling my husband. He knew subconsciously that no matter what I'd fix his messes. Then I quit and yes I suffered as a result of letting him fail. Within no time he quit making rash decisions and learned to take control of his own life. I was DONE saving him from himself. I treated him as if he were a grown man capable of fixing his own mistakes. Heck I don't even give advice anymore even if he asks for it. I'll help him in little things but mostly I try to stay out of the part of his life that he needs to be in charge of.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

With hubby and I going through some problems in our marriage, I realized that a lot of it had to do with power shifting in our marriage. He went from the main breadwinner to stay-at-home husband and now stay-at-home dad.

I was traveling quite a bit which just made it even more difficult since he was left at home.

Since this book is recommended so highly, I bought it on Amazon and sent it to him as a gift hoping it will help re-ignite some of the passion we had previously.


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## BookOfJob (Jul 6, 2012)

tiredandout said:


> ((( Sorry to talk about all this lady stuff here in the Man Cave. I thought this would be a topic for the males to respond, but as it happens I should've just directed to the ladies as the solution lies within myself, not my man. )))


Don't really like hangin around the ladies forum and I find this short thread pretty inspiring. Thanks for putting it here in this forum!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I suggest either you have him read MMSL telling him you've heard it really helps spark up marriages

or

you secretly put him on a the MAP yourself.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

To the ladies who are struggling with their husbands not "manning up" enough. The thing you have to remember is you don't ever "make" your husband think one way or the other. An environment is set that promotes certain thought processes that develop within each person's predisposed personality. There are "Alpha" type men who, if in a different relationship, would end up very Beta, and vice versa. The degree is determined by the person's preset boundaries, but the directions are definitely influenced by the environment over a long time. Remember water will erode a mountain if given enough time and consistent beating on. Now with that thought process in place, let's look at the difference between men and women.

I'm going to speak from a "reformed" doormat. Your average man likes consistency with his thoughts. If he believes or thinks something today, odds are, as long as no dramatic things change, he'll think that way in a year, 5 years, 20 years etc. Where women tend to vacillate. If their husband is "sensitive" for a month, they want him to be more "manly". If he then "mans up", he'll hear how "he's not attentive to my needs, he doesn't like to cuddle, he's not sensitive enough". I'm sorry to say this, but you confuse us because frankly, whatever we are, you want something different.

Over time, the husband in such a situation will take "the path of least resistance" which is ALWAYS becoming the doormat. As you voice your displeasures more, he caves more. This becomes a cycle. You find more things unsatisfactory, and he bends more and more. Soon, your mountain is gone because of the waves.

If you want you husband to man up, treat him like a man. You may not agree with what or how he's doing something, bite your tongue. If you want your husband to be more "manly" then you need to be more "womanly". There can only be one "man of the house" and you've slowly and surely taken over that role.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

*Dad&Hubby*, I think you are spot on here:



> Over time, the husband in such a situation will take "the path of least resistance" which is ALWAYS becoming the doormat. As you voice your displeasures more, he caves more. This becomes a cycle. You find more things unsatisfactory, and he bends more and more. Soon, your mountain is gone because of the waves.
> 
> If you want you husband to man up, treat him like a man. You may not agree with what or how he's doing something, bite your tongue. If you want your husband to be more "manly" then you need to be more "womanly". There can only be one "man of the house" and you've slowly and surely taken over that role.


It is embarrassing and a bit painful to realize, but I can see how I have forced my husband to reatreat into the Beta that he is. He literally had no choice. And yes, I AM the "man of the house" in many ways. Even in ways I don't want to be, but have obtained as my responsibility, because he wouldn't. 

I can see how me treating him differently can have a giant difference in this. I cannot order him to become more manly. But I can choose to let go of responsibility in areas so he could obtain it. And I can choose to _treat_ him like the man I want him to be. I read the book recommended my Mavash and even the slightest change already seemed to make a difference. Of course, we will only be able to tell in time.

There is, however one imbalance pointed out by *marduk* in his thread about what he learned about "manning up". As he said:



> This was always true. Men have a much easier time fulfilling their needs and taking care of their financial business than women do after divorce.


But in our case, I will be better off. Much better off. Financially, legally and even with getting my needs met. Frankly, my husband would be a ship lost in the sea. And he is quite terrified of that, which he has admitted to me. Emotionally, perhaps I will worse off. But in those traditionally "manly" ways, compared to his situation mine will be smooth sailing. 

After reading that I can't help to think that this would effect our relationship dynamic as well. He feels weak, unsure and insecure for a reason, if it comes to us breaking up. Earlier in our relationship he tended to threaten me with divorce during fights. This scared the sh!t out of me in the beginning, so I overcame that by imagining myself through the process, if that were to happen. The threat lost most of its grip on me. And I also realized that no matter what happens, I will be well off, I will survive. But at the same time I saw that in the same situation my husband will have so little left. I feel _worried_ and _sorry_ for him for how difficult it would be for him.

And that doesn't make him seem so strong in my eyes. But I can't see a way to turn that situation around. Fact is, I didn't force him or even ask him to give up many things he has given up for me. I wanted him to still have them! I encouraged him to hang unto them. But he convinced himself that letting go of them was the only possible solution. And now he feels lost and lonely with me being his only beacon. 

I don't know how to deal with that. I try to make him feel like his my no 1 and he enjoys the support and my confidence in him. But something in that also maintains the dynamic that he won't have to look elsewhere (or within himself) for support, confidence or strength.

I don't know. It's difficult. I better just keep reading more about this Fascinating Womenhood. Maybe these perfect housewives have some answer for our situation as well.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

tiredandout said:


> But in our case, I will be better off. Much better off. Financially, legally and even with getting my needs met. Frankly, my husband would be a ship lost in the sea. And he is quite terrified of that, which he has admitted to me. Emotionally, perhaps I will worse off. But in those traditionally "manly" ways, compared to his situation mine will be smooth sailing.
> 
> After reading that I can't help to think that this would effect our relationship dynamic as well. He feels weak, unsure and insecure for a reason, if it comes to us breaking up. Earlier in our relationship he tended to threaten me with divorce during fights. This scared the sh!t out of me in the beginning, so I overcame that by imagining myself through the process, if that were to happen. The threat lost most of its grip on me. And I also realized that no matter what happens, I will be well off, I will survive. But at the same time I saw that in the same situation my husband will have so little left. I feel _worried_ and _sorry_ for him for how difficult it would be for him.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, your issue is two fold. Your husband has gone beyond just doing "path of least resistance" and he's actually lost sight of himself. 

Him threatening with divorce early on was his way of taking control, now he's scared of that. And yes, his fears are a problem. Here is where his problem lies, lets say you two were faced with divorce, he's not afraid of losing you, he's afraid he wouldn't survive on his own. There's a big difference. One says, I love my wife and want her with me for the rest of our lives and I'll fight to keep my marriage together. The other says, I'm too weak to survive on my own two feet. 

I honestly believe your husband needs counseling or some kind of wake up call through the books being talked about.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

tiredandout...If you really, really want to change things around in your marriage, you can do it, but you'll have to do a whole lot of work on yourself. I agree with you about MMSL in that it has a great overall message, but many parts are just yucky. But I get what you mean when you say you want a man who has some of those traits.

First, you'll have to become the alpha female to his alpha male. When we females end up pushing our H's toward the beta scale because we get frustrated that he isn't taking charge, so then WE take charge, this is in effect, the beta female in us. The beta female is bossy and pushy because she is cranky about having to steer the ship all of the time. You want to pull out your alpha female and put the beta female back in the box for only special occasions.

The alpha female loves her man, wants her man, protects her man from predatory females, strokes her man's ego and anything else he needs stroked. She has her own needs and expects her man to fulfill them and she KNOWS he CAN fulfill them.

Can you start with simply trying to see your husband differently, trying to see the alpha in him that you WANT to come forth? Can you forgive him for being so beta in the past and have faith that he can connect to his alpha in the future?

It will take time, and during that time you'll have to keep working on yourself.

One problem that happens when a woman's beta takes over and has to lead the family and household, is that she tends to then believe her husband does not have the ability to be anything but beta. This is rarely true however, and most men have the ability to be alpha in them. So you have to really be able to believe it is in there to get this show started.


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## nathaniel2518 (Oct 30, 2012)

Everyone writes so well on this forum - i'm enlightened. 

Dad&hubby your post seemed to make so much sense to me - same faithful wife. i think what is missing is your husband showing he is making an effort - not necessarily taking control and making all the decisions. once he has had feedback that you loved the thought... or enjoyed the night that he organised then he may be encouraged to do it more - and take some control. unfortunately it then becomes expected. guys do tend to relax again after they have done something good because it does take effort. then you get disappointed again. 

i'm not sure how you hint that effort needs to be made but try.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

> First, *you'll have to become the alpha female to his alpha male. *When we females end up pushing our H's toward the beta scale because we get frustrated that he isn't taking charge, so then WE take charge, this is in effect, the beta female in us. The beta female is bossy and pushy because she is cranky about having to steer the ship all of the time. You want to pull out your alpha female and put the beta female back in the box for only special occasions.
> 
> The alpha female loves her man, wants her man, protects her man from predatory females, strokes her man's ego and anything else he needs stroked. She has her own needs and expects her man to fulfill them and she KNOWS he CAN fulfill them.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response, *Faithful Wife*.

It makes perfect sense.

And I must admit this is exactly what it has come to: me having taken charge because of the perceived lack of effort from my H. And now feeling both resentful that I _have_ to be in charge eventhough I don't want to —*and at the same time frustrated thinking that my H _will not_, _cannot_ nor _wants not_ to take the role of the leader.

But now I can see how this dynamic is for me to change, not him. That I have to believe in him. As much as I find this "Fascinating Womanhood" book nauseating, it has already helped me. As I listed my H's good qualities I found many things I _do_ respect and admire him for. And when I've told him that, he gleams with joy. And, surprisingly, I start gaining more respect for him just by showing it. Words become thoughts become actions and so forth. I like it. 

(As a side note, the book suggests that men like their women to dress like little girls. I thought that's a loud of bull but have to say after reading that chapter I have done some tests and it appears true even for my husband, who just recently told me to wear pants more often. Go figure!)

I realize I still have a long way to go. And many personal obstacles to conquer, as I have some very persistant patterns of poor communication learned in my FOO. But they can be overcome, it just requires work. And faith. At the moment I believe he can be alpha but I don't yet have solid faith that he will. To succeed I think I need to find that faith and hold unto it, especially in the times when he is lacking.

Thank you very much for your response, it was thought-provoking and helpful.


-----


*nathaniel*,

This is a good thought: to give him responsibility and just expect him to take care of it (and believe that he will). Organizing a date is not the best first test in our case due to the nature of our living situation (won't go into detail, since it's too much to explain) but something like this would probably work. I shall think about it!


-----

*Dad&Hubby*,



> Here is where his problem lies, lets say you two were faced with divorce, he's not afraid of losing you, he's afraid he wouldn't survive on his own. There's a big difference. One says, I love my wife and want her with me for the rest of our lives and I'll fight to keep my marriage together. The other says, I'm too weak to survive on my own two feet.


Exactly. And, unfortunately, we have had this discussion. It was actually what drove me to look up information about all this alpha male stuff and lead me to read the MMSL in the first place. 

I find the responses about how to make myself be the woman for his alpha male very helpful. I think I will attempt this at first, for a while at least — also because the situation in our household has lately become infected in a way that I think we need a truce before it's time for me to hit him in the head with any wake up calls. If his alphafication slows down or stops, and I can't find the reason with my own reactions to him, I will introduce him to the manning up -material. 

Let's see what happens!

Thank you for your support, all! I've gotten a lot of good advice here and things that I'll have to think about for weeks to come.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Hiya, I didn't read your whole thread but felt like I had a relevant experience:

I recently read a book called "The Way of The Superior Man"

It uses the term "man" to describe the person in the relationship with the "masculine essence". The term woman is used to describe the person in the relationship with the "feminine essence". I'll let you read the book, if you like, to learn the characteristics of each.

The authors contention is that sexual attraction occurs because of the polarity of the "masculine essence" and the "feminine essence". A functional relationship with both people attracted to each other can occur when it's the male with the "feminine essence" and the female with more masculine traits (masculine does not mean big muscles and a hairy chest, in this context). In the case of a homosexual relationship, one partner acts as the "feminine essence".

Also the roles can easily switch. For instance, in a social situation (****tail party for instance), the female may take on the role with "masculine essence" while at home she may be the "feminine essence".

Anyway, in reading the book I realized that oftentimes I took on the role of the "feminine". This killed attraction within my marriage because without the sexual polarity, there was not sexual attraction. I currently am going through some internal battles regarding whether I should be fighting to regain the masculine or maybe I should just accept the reality that I am the "feminine essence" in the marriage?

My point is, perhaps you as the wife are the "masculine essence" in this marriage? Maybe that is ok?? Or maybe, you are FORCED into the "masculine" role because your husband will not, and deep in your soul you are really "feminine" and you resent the position your husband has put you in??

So not only are you not attracted to him because there is no sexual polarity, but there is also deep seeded and powerful resentment because he is failing to be the man to whom you would be attracted?


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

*Saki*,



> I recently read a book called "The Way of The Superior Man"
> 
> It uses the term "man" to describe the person in the relationship with the "masculine essence". The term woman is used to describe the person in the relationship with the "feminine essence". I'll let you read the book, if you like, to learn the characteristics of each.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for a thought-provoking reply!

I glanced over the beginning of the book to understand the terms and have to say: there is a lot to think about there.

I honestly have difficulty defining whether in my core I would naturally have a more "masculine" essence or "feminine" essence. If I dig deep enough I think the feminine side is the one closest to my core, but in many things I am more "masculine" than my husband. But I guess the book anyway suggests that this can be and often is the case, just that in the intimate relationship the core essence comes to play.

And I have to say when it comes strictly to sex, desire and physical intimacy, I have very much a _feminine_ essence. I want a strong guy to pin me against the kitchen counter. My husband had this role in the beginning, but very soon after we married our sex life turned into him complaining, girly attempts at initiating instead of manly moves and insecurity. The way I acted had a big part to play as to _why_ this happened, so I cannot blame him. But in this area I do feel that we are both too "feminine" — which has lead to a deep decline in passion. There's still sex. Just not that much passion.

It appears to really be an interesting read and something to really look at. In some ways I find both me and my partner to be quite levelled in the amount of "feminine"/"masculine" essence, but mostly we're not similar in the same area.

I don't know what to make of it yet! 
But thank you for bringing this to my attention!


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

tiredandout said:


> If I dig deep enough I think the feminine side is the one closest to my core, but in many things I am more "masculine" than my husband.


If I remove the reference to your husband from your sentence (because you are looking for the answer for YOU not the answer for you...relative to your husband) 

you are telling me you are feminine (in Deida speak)


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I also just wanted to add, that you can't change other people.

You are on a dangerous road by researching this subject. It will likely lead to increased resentment as you see HOW your husband could be something else, but refuses to ever do the work to get there.

If you can't accept your husband the way he is now and live with what you have....there is only one other option


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I violently disagree with this entire post. The whole theme is: the woman shapes the man. Man is a passive rock, acted on or worn down by erosion. 

I do however believe the following statements are true:
- the average woman is better at reading and using tone and body language 
- the average man has a higher drive which creates an inherent power imbalance in the marriage
- close proximity to children causes testosterone to fall for most men. Love without testosterone often creates clingyness or submissiveness


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

I agree with MEM--no place for ambiguity here. Women do read the tea leaves in many cases better than men but it is up to him to grow, harvest, and present the tea leaves to her.

As for "The Way of the Superior Man", it is provocative and an interesting read but perhaps unnerving if your essences are not wafting in the right direction. Based on what has been proven to me about attraction, I would hate to be trying to woo her interest with womanly guile...even if she could kick my a**.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I violently disagree with this entire post. The whole theme is: the woman shapes the man. Man is a passive rock, acted on or worn down by erosion.
> 
> I do however believe the following statements are true:
> - the average woman is better at reading and using tone and body language
> ...


Yes.

They are missing the basic fact that a Man defines himself independent of his wife. A man is lost as soon as he lets his wife define who he is.

If a man is somehow dominated and cowed by his wife, then that is his fault and his fault alone.

“My wife made me do it” never works for me.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I violently disagree with this entire post. The whole theme is: the woman shapes the man. Man is a passive rock, acted on or worn down by erosion.


To which post are you refering?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Post number 20


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

tiredandout, do you respect him?

The takeaway I get from your posts is that you want to, but you don't.

That is a very difficult thing to recover from if you are the engine in the relationship and he only sees himself as a cog.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm not looking to change my husband, I'm looking to learn how to improve myself and thus improve the relationship. Sure some moments I do think: He should just stop doing XXX and start being YYY !! But I am very quickly brought down to earth again by the realization that I am the only person i have power to change.

I don't think this Feminine Essence stuff would make me act so differently, it just made me curious and raised some questions about how I see myself -- and how I would want to see myself -- which I think is valuable. 

I have made some changes to the way I act after some feedback I got in this thread and some things have been better. I haven't tried to change my man or manipulate him to act differently. I have simply put some thought into how I want to be, in life and in a relationship, and then tried to become more like that person. I don't want to define my husband, but admit I have in he past been acting like I would. I want him to feel free to define himself. I don't want him to define me either, which I have let him done in the past. We have been and still are a bit unhealthily enmeshed with each other. I'm breaking free from that towards a healthier, more wholesome relationship. He is free to choose his reaction to that. Luckily lately he has seemed to respond more in kind.

So perhaps we will succeed! 

This is an interesting discussion though, about the manliness of the man and how to support that on my part, and it has given me a lot of thought!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Deejo, this is a sensitive question. In some ways I do, immensely. In other ways I am learning to, as me getting stronger is forcing him to do so too (if I no longer engage in yelling matches he has to find ways to communicate with me more respectfully, which I turn earns him my respect etc). But it's true here are ways in which I don't. : o and I am quite embarrassed of that in fact, since I like to think of myself as an accepting and open person. But some ways of my husband I find hard to respect. I don't know if it's because he repeatedly has judged the way I am and do some things as unhealthy, juvenile, even pathetic, and placed his way of doing things as the goal to strife for. Which, when it's a matter of preference, has only helped me to feel resentful towards his way. We are lacking mutual respec for each others feelings, preferences and needs. A rut from which I guess the only way up is for me to rise up above that and start showing him respect for things he doesn't show it to me -- to act as an example. In some ways this has started to work -- but there are matters where we honestly don't respect each others viewpoint. And it sucks for everybody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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