# No longer able to cope



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I am a long time lurker, and have gotten some useful advice from this forum, but now I'm struggling.

I have been in a sexless marriage for twenty years, but my ability to cope is failing. I find that I am becoming more frustrated and bitter, and having to swallow that is starting to affect me in ways I don't like. 

For those who have a low demand spouse, how do you continue to cope long term? I have my life and hobbies, but it is no longer enough.

Thanks,

Copper


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

What have you done about the no sex and what are you willing to do? 

I don't think any one should stay in a sexless marriage. 

I do feel you need to give your spouse the opportunity to assist in turning things around and that you both need to work on it. If they don't within a certain time frame then it's time to call it quits. 

What is keeping you there?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Why on earth do you want to cope with something that you bitterly struggle with?

Surely twenty years of self imposed sexual misery and celibacy is more than enough, unless you have somehow enjoyed the experience I can't see the value in wanting to cope with more years of the same.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I could no longer cope when I gave up hope that anything would change. That was around the 20 year mark for me, too. Divorce is the best coping mechanism that exists!

There is rarely any good reason to stay in a sexless marriage. All objections to leaving are typically rationalizations or poorly founded fears. Life almost always gets better once you leave.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Give us some more details, CopperTop. Age? Kids? Medical issues? Trust issues? Has there been conversations? Counseling?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> What have you done about the no sex and what are you willing to do?
> 
> I don't think any one should stay in a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...



I'm 52 years old, and I investigated the possibility of leaving last year when she accused me of having an affair (I wasn't, and never have). 

The reason I stay is because leaving is more painful than staying. I spoke with my wife about perhaps going our separate ways after the accusation and she informed me in no uncertain terms that if I left she would take me for everything she could, and take our son and move back to her family in another part of the country. 

I spoke to a lawyer and I can't accept the losses if she were to get all that she would likely get. I simply do not have the time to replace the retirement funds and investments that I have spent 30 years building if I leave. If she were to leave things would be different, but if I walk out that will weigh heavily in her favor. 

It comes down to the kids (one adult & one minor), the onerous financial burden, and the fact that I'm afraid I would be even more alone than I am now. If she were to leave, I would have no one. So long as I don't "hassle" her about sex, the marriage is amiable enough. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> Why on earth do you want to cope with something that you bitterly struggle with?
> 
> Surely twenty years of self imposed sexual misery and celibacy is more than enough, unless you have somehow enjoyed the experience I can't see the value in wanting to cope with more years of the same.



No, I haven't enjoyed it, but it could be worse... far worse. So long as we act like roommates, she is a very good roommate. 

And, well, to be honest, I guess I still love her. 



Copper


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't think any one should stay in a sexless marriage.
> 
> What is keeping you there?


probably he cares , kids involved ...


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

she called u cheater ; and probably other names like sex maniac because you dare to ask for sex more than she can give ...

Divorce is not a good deal for you ; do not do it .

Sit with her and tell her you want to go for open marriage as you don't want to cheat ; she is LD ; she won't do it ; go have some fun with another women ;she will be on fire ; she will either try to gain you or hate you more and ask for divorce .

In both ways you will be in a better position .


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Can you talk a little bit more about the various conversations you've had with you wife that describe your deep unhappiness about the imposed sexual celibacy? What does she say with regard to the lack of sex? How often does she agree to have sex? 

You do realize that you've chosen money over happiness, right? Are you really okay with that? You seem to think that being 52 would preclude you from finding a sexually fullfilling relationship with another woman and I think you are mistaken. Most women love sex. Provided the relationship is good most women want sex, and lots of it, even into their 90s. So you may not score a younger woman if you leave, but I am certain you will, find a woman your age who loves with all her heart and body, unlike your wife.

What I'm saying is many men seem to operate under the mistaken assumption that women don't want sex. They convince themselves that staying in a rotten marriage and coping is better than splitting assets and ending up in another rotten marriage. Which of course it is. But splitting assets and taking a financial hit to find sexual contentment and emotional happiness for the rest of your life is highly likely to happen.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Zouz, I'm really concerned with your bitterness and how you spread it as you reply to other threads.

What was that saying about getting your own house in order first?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Not wanting to take a financial hit is understandable, that said when you least expect it your wife could simply divorce you and the financial hit would still happen.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Give us some more details, CopperTop. Age? Kids? Medical issues? Trust issues? Has there been conversations? Counseling?



I'm 52 years old and in good health. I am active and work out each night. 
She's 55 and is morbidly obese. I encourage her to exercise with me, something simple, like walking, and though she will start, it only lasts a couple of weeks then she quits. All of her (minor) medical issues are directly related to her weight. 

Two kids, one adult daughter in college, and a minor son, also in college (he's very gifted and is attending college and highschool at the same time)

Neither of us have broken our marriage vows, but I don't think she fully trusts me, though I have never given her any reason to doubt my word. Over the years I have been accused (twice) of having an affair (I wasn't), sexually abusing her (I have no idea where this one came from, but stems from "duty sex") and being a pervert (for wanting to have sex more than 2 or 3 times a year)

We have talked this to death. After the birth of the our first, I can only assume that she fulfilled her need to have a child because the sex just stopped for two years. 

It slowly came back, but only to about once a month. After the birth of the second... 2-3 times a year with long dry spells.

She is not interested in counseling because as far as she is concerned, 2-3 times a year is "normal" for couples that have been married as long as we have and at our age. Wanting to have sex more often is a clear sign that there is something not normal about me.


Having said all the above, I will go on to say she is a very good person, whose company I enjoy. She is kind and thoughtful, and if it weren't for the lack of intimacy, I would be delighted to spend the rest of my life with her.


Copper


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Why did your wife think you were cheating? If she accused you of it, she probably still thinks it's true. If so, there's your reason why she's not having sex with you.

Edit: we posted at the same time. I see from your post above that sex stopped after the kids and never re-started. Has she had her hormones/thyroid checked?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> Not wanting to take a financial hit is understandable, that said when you least expect it your wife could simply divorce you and the financial hit would still happen.



It could, and would, but according to the lawyer I spoke with, if she walks out, that changes the rubric to be in my favor. She would still get something, and I wouldn't begrudge her that, but if I walk she would take 50% of my retirement in addition to all our other assets, and as much as 30% of my income in maintenance. 

I know this sounds like I am choosing money over happiness, but I would be nearly destitute without enough time to recover. The lawyer actually suggest that if there was anyway possible, I should stick it out.


Copper


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

nm - you saw an attorney. The kids are old enough to choose and want to be near their friends - she won't be able to just move and take them away. Has she never worked? And if you meet someone, she'll have her retirement - together you might be just fine.

I would insist that she attend marriage counseling. She might be ashamed of her body (especially with the weight) or wonder why you even want or like sex with her. She might have put on weight to avoid sex. There might have been some childhood sexual abuse that makes sex something she does not associate good feelings with. A counselor will likely also let her know that 2-3 times a year, even for senior citizens is a bit low but every couple has their normal.

Once you know your legal rights, financial risks and try to get her to counseling, you will have a better idea of where you stand and what you're willing to do.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't know Coppertop. Re-reading what you've written--the calling you a pervert/abuser etc---that's abusive in my opinion. 

You've tried to get her in to counseling...she refuses.

You've tried to get her to take better care of herself....she refuses.

She threatens to take you to the cleaners, rather than discuss the possibility of counseling. Think about that.

I'm with Anon Pink here. I think the money you'd lose in a divorce might be money well spent.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

And threatening to take you to the cleaners doesn't sound like someone as nice as you portray her. 

Even if her issues stem from something deeper, she has no interest in fixing them. At some point you gotta cut your losses.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Why did your wife think you were cheating? If she accused you of it, she probably still thinks it's true. If so, there's your reason why she's not having sex with you.
> 
> Edit: we posted at the same time. I see from your post above that sex stopped after the kids and never re-started. Has she had her hormones/thyroid checked?



I have no clue where the accusation came from. She knows where I am nearly every minute of the day. When I pointed that out to her, that there was no time for me to have been having an affair, she said that I was doing some some woman at work, during work. 

How do you argue against something like that? It is logically impossible to prove that I am not having an affair. 


Copper


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'm 52 years old and in good health. I am active and work out each night.
> She's 55 and is morbidly obese. I encourage her to exercise with me, something simple, like walking, and though she will start, it only lasts a couple of weeks then she quits. All of her (minor) medical issues are directly related to her weight.
> 
> Two kids, one adult daughter in college, and a minor son, also in college (he's very gifted and is attending college and highschool at the same time)
> ...


Your morbidly obese wife thinks sex 1-2 times a year is normal?
Your morbidly obese wife who thinks sex 1-2 times a year is normal also thinks there is something wrong with you for wanting sex, wanting to experiment and explore? And you're buying this?

Dude, seriously, if she to,d you it was normal for people to disown their kids once they turn 18 would you believe that too? Would you wring your hands and tell your kids you hope they understand that their mother feels this way and there is nothing else they can do?

Stop allowing your wife, who BTWis crazy as hell, dictate what your life looks like!

Go home, tell her she either goes to therapy and learns what healthy sex looks like and begins to work toward that goal or you are out!


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> and as much as 30% of my income in maintenance.


I'd suggest looking into moving to Texas, Copper. You may find the climate more to your liking. The weather's not bad, either.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I don't know Coppertop. Re-reading what you've written--the calling you a pervert/abuser etc---that's abusive in my opinion.
> 
> You've tried to get her in to counseling...she refuses.
> 
> ...





EnjoliWoman said:


> And threatening to take you to the cleaners doesn't sound like someone as nice as you portray her.
> 
> Even if her issues stem from something deeper, she has no interest in fixing them. At some point you gotta cut your losses.



Those are some big losses. Tough to swallow. 

These issues only come up when I press. If I let sleeping dogs lie, things move along peacefully. And remember, this is over a long period of time. It's not like she is busting my chops every night. If she were, I would probably be gone. 

I suspect the whole take to the cleaners thing was a fear reaction. I had never even mentioned the possibility to divorce before. I only mentioned it then, to give her an out, if she was so unhappy. 

I want this to work, and so long as she doesn't feel pressured about sex, we get along famously. I just miss the intimacy. 

Several years ago I gave us trying and that improved our relationship a lot. I dug deep into my hobbies (race cars and writing) and I was okay for a while.

But now I feel the creeping need again. I didn't notice it, but a (female) friend told me that a woman was hitting on me at lunch several months ago. I don't know if I'm afraid I might stray or there is something else bothering me. But either way, I don't want to become my sister, thrice divorced because she can't keep her pants zipped. 

I don't want to lose my family. I have to be satisfied with what I have, but I don't know how anymore.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Your morbidly obese wife thinks sex 1-2 times a year is normal?
> Your morbidly obese wife who thinks sex 1-2 times a year is normal also thinks there is something wrong with you for wanting sex, wanting to experiment and explore? And you're buying this?
> 
> Dude, seriously, if she to,d you it was normal for people to disown their kids once they turn 18 would you believe that too? Would you wring your hands and tell your kids you hope they understand that their mother feels this way and there is nothing else they can do?
> ...



Never said I was buying it. I know it's not normal. I was just stating her objections. The list of reasons why we can't have sex is endless and humourous. It is never because she doesn't want to, it is because some outside force prevents it. 

But as I told someone a while back, I can not change her. She has to want to change and she doesn't. She's content in our relationship as is. 

The only person I can change is myself, and that is what I'm trying to do. I have to learn some new coping mechanisms. 


Copper


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So you're here to learn how to be happy with imposed celibacy?

Wrong forum. You want the Buddhist forum where they teach you how to not want things that normal people need and want. They teach one to master their desires and let go of all wants. Sounds like it might be what you're looking for.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Zouz said:


> she called u cheater ; and probably other names like sex maniac because you dare to ask for sex more than she can give ...
> 
> Divorce is not a good deal for you ; do not do it .
> 
> ...



I can't do this. It's against my nature to hurt someone else so recklessly, and having an affair only compounds my problems. 

It makes it tougher at home because I am a liar and cheat, and if she leaves, she has grounds and that works against me as well. 

I can state in no uncertain terms, she would never agree to an open marriage... and I wouldn't either. I stood in front of both of our families and promised I would never do something like that. My word still means something to me.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> So you're here to learn how to be happy with imposed celibacy?
> 
> Wrong forum. You want the Buddhist forum where they teach you how to not want things that normal people need and want. They teach one to master their desires and let go of all wants. Sounds like it might be what you're looking for.



Perhaps so.

Thank you for your advice.


Copper


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening coppertop
I've been in this situation for most of my 25 year marriage. If she isn't willing to change, then you are down to 3 options:

Leave
cheat
Live like a monk.

Its not fair, but that is what it is. 

As far as legal issues, if you can't get a favorable divorce because she won't have sex with you, can she get one if you cheat?

In one respect your situation is simpler than mine because it sounds like you don't love your wife any more. (maybe I'm wrong). If that is really true, then no amount of financial hardship makes up for a sexless life. Leave, cheat - your choice. If I didn't love my wife, I would have left despite the financial hardship.


Here I'm assuming that like me, you have done everything possible to make her enjoy sex.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Those are some big losses. Tough to swallow.
> 
> *These issues only come up when I press. If I let sleeping dogs lie, things move along peacefully*. And remember, this is over a long period of time. It's not like she is busting my chops every night. If she were, I would probably be gone.
> 
> ...


What this says to me is that she's fine as long as you toe her line in all things. The reason she's not abusive (and make no mistake, calling you pervert, etc IS abusive) on a daily basis is because she's beat you down to the point where you rarely initiate. When you press things, she flips out. And by pressing things, I really mean "try to initiate intimace like a normal human". If you started initiating every day, or even 3 times per week--what would her reaction be? I suspect you know.

You walk on eggshells to keep the peace. You suppress your own desires and your own happiness to keep the peace.

Read this book. Read this book twice.

Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy eBook: Robert Glover: Books


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening coppertop
> I've been in this situation for most of my 25 year marriage. If she isn't willing to change, then you are down to 3 options:
> 
> Leave
> ...



The passion has cooled, but I do love her, and I want this to work. I think if we could turn around the intimacy the fire would return.

I know I could absorb the financial hit, but it just hurts to see 30 years of effort take from you. If I were younger, perhaps I wouldn't mind so much. But I was hoping to retire soon and losing that much of my retirement along with all our other assets would preclude that. When the divorce attorney suggests riding it out, you know leaving is not a good idea. 

If I were to cheat, even if she were to file, I would suspect that I would get the same treatment by the courts. To leave without cause is abandonment and the courts frown upon that, but that is true of adultery as well. 

While the money is important, it's not the only reason I stay. I've made the choice. I just wish I could come to grips with it. I had for a while, but my grip is slipping. 

I could list pages of excuses and things she doesn't want. But I can sum up what she does want in one sentence.

Missionary position sex, once every six months or so, and for it to be over as quickly as possible. 



Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> ...she informed me in no uncertain terms that if I left she would take me for everything she could, and take our son and move back to her family in another part of the country.
> 
> I spoke to a lawyer and I can't accept the losses if she were to get all that she would likely get.


Your joint estate should be split in half and that's fair, but moving the child out of state? I would say speak to another attorney. (Unless we're talking about a 'mature minor' who wants to go..)


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

You shouldn't have to. Is withholding intimacy considered a reason for terminating a marriage in your state? I'd be curious to hear her reasons. You've put up with it so long she's just sure she'll get her way. And she's right.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> What this says to me is that she's fine as long as you toe her line in all things. The reason she's not abusive (and make no mistake, calling you pervert, etc IS abusive) on a daily basis is because she's beat you down to the point where you rarely initiate. When you press things, she flips out. And by pressing things, I really mean "try to initiate intimace like a normal human". If you started initiating every day, or even 3 times per week--what would her reaction be? I suspect you know.
> 
> You walk on eggshells to keep the peace. You suppress your own desires and your own happiness to keep the peace.
> 
> ...



Read it after seeing it recommended in other threads. I didn't get a lot out of it. I have never let her walk on me or push me around. Since I was already, more or less, the "Alpha male" and it hadn't ignited this torrent of passion, there isn't a lot more to do. 

We can live peacefully and have no sex, or we can fight about having no sex, and still have no sex. I'm not going to force her, so why would I choose the latter?


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> You shouldn't have to. Is withholding intimacy considered a reason for terminating a marriage in your state? I'd be curious to hear her reasons. You've put up with it so long she's just sure she'll get her way. And she's right.



It's a very high burden of proof. All she has to do is claim she is physically unable (and she would) and "poof," it no longer applies.

Her reasons... for what? 


Copper


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

You ARE letting her push you around. You're letting her dictate celibacy in marriage! It doesn't get more stomped down than that. 

Burying yourself in hobbies to distract yourself from the intimacy that you're denied?

Choosing celibacy for the sake of harmony?

It's your call I guess. I know retirement is important to you, and you probably have had a bellyfull of the office life, but think for a moment. You're going to be retired--with HER. You're going to be spending all day and all night with the woman who has been sexually rejecting you for years--calling you names--threatening you....I'd rather stay at the office, frankly.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm going to echo what Fozzy said here, CopperTop.

Her response to your suggestion of amicable (And justified) dissolution was to threaten to hurt you as much as she could.

--Yet you don't think you're being pushed around.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> It's a very high burden of proof. All she has to do is claim she is physically unable (and she would) and "poof," it no longer applies.
> 
> Her reasons... for what?
> 
> ...


Her reasONS for why she doesn't want to have sex with you.

Are you clean? Does your breath smell? Are you too rough in bed? Do you call her names? Ignore her through out the day? Fail to pay attention when she's talking? Give her nasty looks? Fault to assist around the house or with the kids?

What is your wife's problem? Does she have sexual trauma in her past? Was she raised by rigid and over bearing Puritan parents who taught her sex was shameful and disgusting? What is her issue with having sex with you?

How often do you initiate? How do you initiate? How often do you flirt with her give her compliments, make passes at her, give suggestive leers, tell her dirty jokes? Why is sex such a taboo subject and what are you okay with that?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> You ARE letting her push you around. You're letting her dictate celibacy in marriage! It doesn't get more stomped down than that.
> 
> Burying yourself in hobbies to distract yourself from the intimacy that you're denied?
> 
> ...





ocotillo said:


> I'm going to echo what Fozzy said here, CopperTop.
> 
> Her response to your suggestion of amicable (And justified) dissolution was to threaten to hurt you as much as she could.
> 
> --Yet you don't think you're being pushed around.



Okay, I agree. In this respect, she is. But there is no changing it. Or at least, no way I have discovered. 

But that leaves me only with leaving. I just worry about my future if she takes almost 500k out of my retirement, get the house, gets the classic cars and takes 30% of my income. 

I couldn't afford to buy out my half of those items with her drawing off so much of my salary, so they would be sold and the losses would be devastating on the cars. I bought and restored those to pass down to the children so they would have something tangible from me. And she would sell them. To her, they are just old cars. To me, they are pieces of art to be cherished. 

And I say, again, she isn't a shrew so long as I don't pressure her on intimacy. I love and care deeply for her, and would like to stay married. Day to day, she is funny, warm and a joy to be around. I suspect many men would gladly change places with me. I don't want to throw it away. I want to make it work. 


Copper


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

This is EXACTLY were I am. I'm even the exact same age you are, and having the same issues, with the exception of one. I could care less about my wife for all the damage she has done to me over the years. If I could get rid of her without her being able to take the kids and all the money, I'd do it today. 

Divorce laws only leave you with two options: Leave, be poor and have no contact with your kids or continue a sexless relationship. What a great choice, huh!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Title the cars to your kids. She can't take what belongs to them.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Okay, I agree. In this respect, she is. But there is no changing it. Or at least, no way I have discovered.
> 
> But that leaves me only with leaving. I just worry about my future if she takes almost 500k out of my retirement, get the house, gets the classic cars and takes 30% of my income.
> 
> ...


Many men would gladly trade places to have a morbidly obese wife who hates sex?

Scratch that morbidly obese part. No man is going to want even a super model if she hates sex. Her weight is meaningless.

On what planet do you live?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> This is EXACTLY were I am. I'm even the exact same age you are, and having the same issues, with the exception of one. I could care less about my wife for all the damage she has done to me over the years. If I could get rid of her without her being able to take the kids and all the money, I'd do it today.
> 
> Divorce laws only leave you with two options: Leave, be poor and have no contact with your kids or continue a sexless relationship. What a great choice, huh!


I don't know where you live but I suspect what you say about divorce is not accurate. At least not in my state. I am a SAHM and was warned that I might not even get half unless I could prove maltreatment and apparently being a passive aggressive, cold, indifferent, disengaged, ass isn't maltreatment.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Title the cars to your kids. She can't take what belongs to them.


Oh yes she can. You can't put the title of a car in the name of a minor. All assets become part of the "marital estate" and she gets 60 to 70% of everything. If it were this simple, you could put the house deed in the name of the kids to block her from getting it. It doesn't work that way.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

One of the children is an adult.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> One of the children is an adult.


I still don't think you can do that. How would you stop someone from giving title to a house to one of the adult children just to keep the spouse from getting it.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> Divorce laws only leave you with two options: Leave, be poor...


Divorce is no picnic for anyone. Unless your spouse can buy you out, the house will probably be sold and they will be leaving with a reduction in their standard of living too.

If your spouse is willing to go nuclear - to endure that loss rather than see a counselor with you and try to work things out, doesn't that say something in and of itself?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Titling the house would be different. Assuming the wife is on the deed to the home, she'd also have to sign it. If the cars are registered only to Coppertop, he can title them away whenever he likes.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

When I asked for a divorce I was counting on selling the house and getting something much smaller and easier to maintain. I knew I'd take an extreme financial hit. I knew my financial outlook was bleak, at best! And yet.... I was no longer willing to stay in a lousy marriage that made me bitterly unhappy, depressed with no hope for a good future together.

We fix this or we go our separate ways. I didn't want to go through a divorce but I wanted that bleak future even less.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know where you live but I suspect what you say about divorce is not accurate. At least not in my state. I am a SAHM and was warned that I might not even get half unless I could prove maltreatment and apparently being a passive aggressive, cold, indifferent, disengaged, ass isn't maltreatment.


Our circumstances must have been way different because I was told by a lawyer that I would lose 70% and the kids... and this guy was one of those "men's rights" lawyers. I'm not making this up. This has been confirmed by numorous men I know who have gone through this. They lost anywhere from 50 to 70% and their kids.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> Our circumstances must have been way different because I was told by a lawyer that I would lose 70% and the kids... and this guy was one of those "men's rights" lawyers. I'm not making this up. This has been confirmed by numorous men I know who have gone through this. They lost anywhere from 50 to 70% and their kids.


How many children do you have? I would talk to another lawyer. It's not typical to lose 70% of your assets/income and not have shared custody with your kids.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Venting to a web forum and shooting down good ideas simply because you are scared of a post divorce life, is nothing more than an exercise in futility. I don't mean to be mean but to be truthful.

It wouldn't surprise me that if you actually served her with divorce papers, that after she realized that you no longer cared for her threats, she would do a complete turnaround and beg you not to leave her.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Her reasONS for why she doesn't want to have sex with you.
> 
> Are you clean? Does your breath smell? Are you too rough in bed? Do you call her names? Ignore her through out the day? Fail to pay attention when she's talking? Give her nasty looks? Fault to assist around the house or with the kids?
> 
> ...


Anon , dear , r u serious ! 

the guy is is in a sexless marriage ; we do everything u think of when we love ;we try everything u can think of ; yet an LD is a winner !


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

You have sold your soul for material possesions, yet when you have an opportunity to reclaim it, you refuse. It seems that you've made your bed so accept it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Dogbert said:


> You have sold your soul for material possesions, yet when you have an opportunity to reclaim it, you refuse. It seems that you've made your bed so accept it.


:iagree: I was going to say pretty much the same thing. 

As long as you're her doormat, nothing will change.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

People who issue threats do so from a position of weakness, not strength. If she was better off being divorced she would have filed already. Even with your worse case scenario, she would be up sh!t creek because 30% of your salary and whatever crappy job she could find at her age, she would never come close to the standard of living she had while married to you.

She needs to stop reading those celebrity rags featuring divorces of the rich and famous, stop eating those chocolate covered bom bons, start taking better care of her health and start looking for a job. If you think its going to be tough for you, it will be 100 times worse for her after the divorce.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Her reasONS for why she doesn't want to have sex with you.
> 
> Are you clean? Does your breath smell? Are you too rough in bed? Do you call her names? Ignore her through out the day? Fail to pay attention when she's talking? Give her nasty looks? Fault to assist around the house or with the kids?
> 
> ...



I present the following somewhat tongue in cheek, but it gives you an idea of what I am up against. 

Reasons for not having sex:
It's too hot.
It't too cold.
The kids are asleep, we will wake them.
The kids are awake, they will hear us.
Tomorrow is a bad day at work, I need my rest.
Today was a bad day at work.
Yesterday was a bad day at work, I need my rest.
My (pick a body part) hurts.
It's too late.
It's too early.
It's too light.
I was willing, but you took too long brushing your teeth etc.
I came to bed, but you weren't here.
I came to bed, but you were already asleep. (I would like to add I have told her clearly, "Wake me up! I won't mind!")
The dog is watching.
... and the list goes on.

As far as me? I bathe at least once a day, often twice. I brush twice a day and my oral health is good (all my teeth, no fillings). 

I am as gentle in bed as she wants me to be. Personally, I would like a little more passion, but I want her to enjoy herself so she will want to go again. I would like to add to this, when we do have sex, she normally peaks twice, sometimes three times, and occasionally four, though this is rare.

I have never raised my voice or hand to my wife. I'm not that type of person. I'm not a screamer. I don't belittle her. I don't say, "Damn, you fat! You need to lose weight!" Instead, I say, "Why don't we walk the dog together?" I never intentionally belittle anyone. It's cruel and counter productive. 

We both work, but when we are home, I used to make it a point to caress her each time I walked by. Just a light swipe of the hand on the bottom, back or shoulders. I don't do that any more because she complained about me groping her all the time. She will let me give her a "smooch" but no prolonged kisses.

I like to tease her with double entendres, but I don't do that much anymore either. I enjoy the challenge of thinking how to say something that would go over the kids heads but she would know what I mean. It's getting much harder now to do now the kids are older, which makes the game even more fun. She complains about me doing it, but I keep doing it anyway, though less than before.

I insist that the family eat together (with rare exceptions) and the television and phones are off. This is our family time and we spend the time talking to each other. 

I am responsible for housecleaning, laundry, the yard and the cars. She is responsible for shopping and cooking. She used to do more of the kid stuff than I did, though I helped. Now, since the kids are older, it's the opposite. My son and I are very close.

So far as I know, the only "trauma" in her past was a boyfriend swallowed a bullet. She wasn't there and didn't discover the body, but perhaps that affected her. I don't know. 

I don't initiate anymore. Haven't in a long while. When I did, it was usually after dinner, when I was helping pickup the table, I would hold her a moment with some smooching, and just ask her straight up, if she had plans for later. Often she would say no (as in no sex). Sometimes she would say yes, but by the time bedtime rolled around, she had changed her mind. Since the last smack-down (sexual abuse) I have just stopped. I told her when she wanted me, she only had to ask.

She lies in bed so her back is to me exclusively. She says every other position is painful. Every night, still, I caresses her back until she goes to sleep because she likes it. So long as I confine my kisses to the shoulders, and don't touch anything other than her back, and don't spoon, she's fine. Touches anywhere intimate results in an immediate slap-down and often a freeze out for the rest of the night. To touch after that, even her back, is not recommend.

If someone has any new suggestions I am will to listen and try, but I have tried many of the things suggested in other threads. Normally they lead only to pain and suffering for one or both of us. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> You have sold your soul for material possesions, yet when you have an opportunity to reclaim it, you refuse. It seems that you've made your bed so accept it.



To some degree, you are correct. That is why I asked for advice on coping. But it is difficult to give up so much after working so hard to build. 


Copper


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> It could, and would, but according to the lawyer I spoke with, if she walks out, that changes the rubric to be in my favor. She would still get something, and I wouldn't begrudge her that, but if I walk she would take 50% of my retirement in addition to all our other assets, and as much as 30% of my income in maintenance.
> 
> I know this sounds like I am choosing money over happiness, but I would be nearly destitute without enough time to recover. The lawyer actually suggest that if there was anyway possible, I should stick it out.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I'm finding, but it seems no one believes us. Again, let me say I'm not making this up. 

It's intersting that you say that she would get less if she files. I have been told repeatedly that she gets the same irregardless of who files.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> People who issue threats do so from a position of weakness, not strength. If she was better off being divorced she would have filed already. Even with your worse case scenario, she would be up sh!t creek because 30% of your salary and whatever crappy job she could find at her age, she would never come close to the standard of living she had while married to you.
> 
> She needs to stop reading those celebrity rags featuring divorces of the rich and famous, stop eating those chocolate covered bom bons, start taking better care of her health and start looking for a job. If you think its going to be tough for you, it will be 100 times worse for her after the divorce.



Actually, she is well educated and has a very good job. If she were to carry though, and if the worst case were to pass, I would be living the Jerry Reed song... She got the gold mine, I got the shaft. 

She would still have her retirement, plus as much as 50% of my retirement, plus 50% of our communal assets, plus as much as 30% of my income. If I were 30, I might go for it. But at 50? I don't have a lot of time to rebuild and I refuse to be a ward of the state. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> That's exactly what I'm finding, but it seems no one believes us. Again, let me say I'm not making this up.
> 
> It's intersting that you say that she would get less if she files. I have been told repeatedly that she gets the same irregardless of who files.



It comes down to abandons the marriage. If I walk, or commit adultery or something like that, I abandon the marriage. The courts will be more generous to her. 

If she were to do the same, the courts would be less generous. 

If I could just get out for splitting the property, I would make one last ditch attempt to save the marriage, but then I would walk. But as it is now, I can choose between being comfortable and somewhat unhappy, or poor, bitter, resentful and unhappy.


Copper


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Try downsizing your lifestyle while you still have money. You may find you're more comfortable living at a reduced lifestyle than you think is possible. It's amazing how adaptable people are to the lifestyle they have.

Live like you're poor for a while. Give it 6 months. If you find out at that point it's not as bad as you think, re-evaluate your priorities then.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> She would still have her retirement, plus as much as 50% of my retirement, plus 50% of our communal assets, plus as much as 30% of my income. If I were 30, I might go for it. But at 50? I don't have a lot of time to rebuild and I refuse to be a ward of the state.
> 
> 
> Copper


Her retirement money would also be split. Have you talked to you lawyer about why it wouldn't be? 
You still have time at 50, when you are still feeling this way at 60 you'll be kicking yourself that you didn't just do it 10 years ago.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> To some degree, you are correct. That is why I asked for advice on coping. But it is difficult to give up so much after working so hard to build.
> 
> 
> Copper


Everything you have worked so hard for can be lost in a blinking of an eye by things like a natural catastrophe, an automobile accident that leaves you a paraplegic for life, a chronic illness that requires expensive treatments and long term hospitalization. These things could financially devastate you far worse than any divorce. Now ask yourself that if any of these catastrophes would befall you, would your wife be there for you to support you financially and emotionally or would she bail out of the marriage?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Also, keep in mind another one of life's gender unfairnesses (not sure if that's really a word)...as we get older, it's easier for a man to get back in the dating world than it is for a woman. You stand a MUCH better shot of grabbing another good woman than she stands of getting a great guy. What does she bring to the dating table? Poor health, no sex drive, and a bad attitude?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Try downsizing your lifestyle while you still have money. You may find you're more comfortable living at a reduced lifestyle than you think is possible. It's amazing how adaptable people are to the lifestyle they have.
> 
> Live like you're poor for a while. Give it 6 months. If you find out at that point it's not as bad as you think, re-evaluate your priorities then.



I'm less worried about lifestyle than my future. I don't need much. We can afford to drive BMW's and Mercedes, if we choose. We drive Honda's because they function just as well for going back and forth to work. 

I have been trying to convince my wife we should think about downsizing our home. So far, not much luck, but I'm still working on it. We could easily sell this white elephant for far more than we owe and buy a smaller home with the equity and be free and clear. Then we would have no debt at all. But she likes the house and location, and it is convenient to her job and the local college. 

What it comes down to is fear. I supported my grandparents in the final years of their lives because they had nothing. If it weren't for me and my mother helping, they would have been living on government subsides. I don't want to be them. 


Copper


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again. If a catastrophic illness or accident were to befall you, would your wife support you or would she divorce you?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Her retirement money would also be split. Have you talked to you lawyer about why it wouldn't be?
> You still have time at 50, when you are still feeling this way at 60 you'll be kicking yourself that you didn't just do it 10 years ago.



What you say is true, but there are some difference. My retirement is a 401k. Her's is a pension. They can't take her retirement because there is nothing to take. That is considered future income and won't be in the calculations. 

Again, I spoke to a lawyer about it, wanting to find out my options. He recommend that I stick it out if I could since the courts would see me leaving as abandonment, and they frown on that. One of the advantages of living in the bible belt.

If she were to leave, we would split the property and we go our separate ways. This, if I couldn't fix the marriage, I could live with. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> Everything you have worked so hard for can be lost in a blinking of an eye by things like a natural catastrophe, an automobile accident that leaves you a paraplegic for life, a chronic illness that requires expensive treatments and long term hospitalization. These things could financially devastate you far worse than any divorce. Now ask yourself that if any of these catastrophes would befall you, would your wife be there for you to support you financially and emotionally or would she bail out of the marriage?





Dogbert said:


> You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again. If a catastrophic illness or accident were to befall you, would your wife support you or would she divorce you?



I wasn't ignoring. I just hadn't gotten to your question yet. Sorry. 

I don't know the answer to you second question. I would hope she would stand with me, as I would her. In any case, I am well insured and my family would be cared for in the event of my catastrophic health failure or death. 

I also have in place (I can't remember the term at the moment) a document that gives the doctors directions on my wishes in the event something like that happens. 

Basically, it prevents some traumatic injury from draining the family resources. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Also, keep in mind another one of life's gender unfairnesses (not sure if that's really a word)...as we get older, it's easier for a man to get back in the dating world than it is for a woman. You stand a MUCH better shot of grabbing another good woman than she stands of getting a great guy. What does she bring to the dating table? Poor health, no sex drive, and a bad attitude?



You think? I wonder. I never dated much when I was younger. I was in only two relationships, and the second woman I slept with, I married. The first relationship lasted about three years, the second two before I asked her to marry me.

Why would another woman want me if my own wife and life partner does not?


Copper


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Why would another woman want me if my own wife and life partner does not?
> 
> 
> Copper


Let's see, good income + a half million in a retirement account, demonstrated ability to commit to a women and manages personal finances well. You are right, nothing desirable there...


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

It is foggy now , because for you trying and trying and trying with a partner all those years just led to more selfishness and selfishness and selfishness from her side.


No not all women are like this; when we got married also we had no real experience in life , we looked as a divorce and seperation as the fault of male mainly if his wife is loyal ; but we omitted one huge truth : loyal to what ?

No that you know the difference between a wh0re and a b1tch ; you might go with the former in a date but your heart will go with the later ...

even a wh0re can become loyal but not the b1tch ..


When you fly you will see that you will meet agin a lot of women ; and one of them will make you feel as a king .

you might not find her easily ; but at the end you will just bump into her .

I am still in seperation process , yet my mind is getting clearer , day after day ; our lazy , selfish abusers degraded our self esteem to an extent that we feel hopeless by now .

over 17 years ; I lost a lot of good friends ; because she doesn't like them .

the first thing u should do even if still stuck ; is to go out and meet new people ; it is not an invitation to cheating ; it is the new process that you adapt yourself to from now on ; it is like u open a new account , a new different lifestyle ; where that ugly creature is not in it .


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Let's see, good income + a half million in a retirement account, demonstrated ability to commit to a women and manages personal finances well. You are right, nothing desirable there...


To this he is in good shape and is obviously not a womanizer/player. 

You stand a very high rate of future happiness while you wife stands a high rate of solitude because like a said before. No one wants to be with a woman who doesn't like sex, unless it's an other person who also doesn't like sex.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You think? I wonder. I never dated much when I was younger. I was in only two relationships, and the second woman I slept with, I married. The first relationship lasted about three years, the second two before I asked her to marry me.
> 
> Why would another woman want me if my own wife and life partner does not?
> 
> ...


Because another woman would not be your wife. She'd be a different person, with different personality and different priorities. Plus, you're wise enough at this point in your life to vet more carefully while you're dating.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> To this he is in good shape and is obviously not a womanizer/player.
> 
> You stand a very high rate of future happiness while you wife stands a high rate of solitude because like a said before. No one wants to be with a woman who doesn't like sex, unless it's an other person who also doesn't like sex.


Absolutely and I would also add to that, a woman who doesn't take care of her appearance and health, seldom attracts quality men.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Having said all the above, I will go on to say she is a very good person, whose company I enjoy. She is kind and thoughtful, and if it weren't for the lack of intimacy, I would be delighted to spend the rest of my life with her.


This is going to sound like a mean spirited comment but it is not intended as such. What you described above .... I feel the same way about my cat. 

That is not a marriage that is a roommate. 

I was 50 when I separated, I took a big hit and I really miss my old house. And then I'm with my girlfriend who makes me feel wonderful about myself and assures me that I do the same for her and at the end of the day it's just a house.

A relationship is so much better.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Perhaps. But I still care for this woman. If I seperate out the sex, I enjoy her company very much. She is warm, funny, caring and a joy to be with.

Remember back on my original post, I said I didn't like the person I was becoming? That's true. I have so much, why can't I be happy with that? I don't have to deal with some of the horror stories I have read here. I have never envied anyone in my life. But now, I feel a creeping jealousy, and I don't think I should. 

It's only in the deep darkness of night, as I feel her warmth under my hand, that I question my choices and wonder if there isn't more. 

But all the sex in isn't worth some of things others have to deal with.


Copper


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> No one wants to be with a woman who doesn't like sex, unless it's an other person who also doesn't like sex.


It would appear from this board that she has a pretty good chance then. 

That's a good business idea. An online dating site for people who haven't any desire to be close to someone but just want them around the house eAbstinent.com perhaps.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> What you say is true, but there are some difference. My retirement is a 401k. Her's is a pension. They can't take her retirement because there is nothing to take. That is considered future income and won't be in the calculations.
> 
> Again, I spoke to a lawyer about it, wanting to find out my options. He recommend that I stick it out if I could since the courts would see me leaving as abandonment, and they frown on that. One of the advantages of living in the bible belt.
> 
> ...


What state do you live in?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

:sleeping:


Nucking Futs said:


> What state do you live in?



North Carolina. 


Copper


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I don't have any real advice to give you but I am curious as the day is long so........

When you say your wife is morbidly obese, how heavy is she? 

And was she always this heavy or did the weight gain coincide with the reduction in sexual interest?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> :sleeping:
> 
> 
> North Carolina.
> ...


You need to consult a different lawyer. According to North Carolina Statutes, if alimony is awarded it would flow from the spouse with the higher income to the spouse with the lower income in an amount that would equalize their standards of living. Marital assets are to be divided equally, including retirements, including pensions. See this site for how they would work the pension division.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

And by the way, a _competent_ lawyer would prevent her from moving the minor child from the current school district without your permission.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> You need to consult a different lawyer. According to North Carolina Statutes, if alimony is awarded it would flow from the spouse with the higher income to the spouse with the lower income in an amount that would equalize their standards of living. Marital assets are to be divided equally, including retirements, including pensions. See this site for how they would work the pension division.



That would be about right. I make about almost twice what she does.

Perhaps she couldn't move away with the child, but if she needed/wanted to relocate and our son wanted to go with her, I wouldn't feel like I could easily object. I wouldn't put our child in the position. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Lila said:


> I don't have any real advice to give you but I am curious as the day is long so........
> 
> When you say your wife is morbidly obese, how heavy is she?
> 
> And was she always this heavy or did the weight gain coincide with the reduction in sexual interest?



5'5" and 280-300 pounds. 

She was always curvy, but pleasantly so, and I liked that. After we got married she put on a few pounds (as most do) but when she became pregnant with our first, she put on a lot of weight, didn't loose it, put on even more with the second, and didn't loose that either. 

So yes, the weight gain coincided with the reduction in sexual interest, but then so did having the children. 

Her weight bothers her. I know that. I haven't seen her without clothes for 20 years. But I still see the person she was and her weight doesn't disgust me. I worry about her health and try to encourage her to do things with me. Walk... use the cardio or weight machines we have, anything she likes. 

I wish she would loose a few pounds, but I don't try to force it. The doctor has told her she is going to die in 5 years (now three) if she doesn't get the weight off. She has to want to loose the weight herself. I just encourage her as much as I can. 


Copper


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

There's no magic bullet to make you stop caring about sex. The closest thing I can think of are antidepressants. An SSRI, like Prozac or Lexapro, will help stabilize your mood and it has the occasional side effect of lowering one's libido. So could help you in two different ways.

However, there is a danger where, in some cases, the sexual dysfunction is long-term, or perhaps permanent.

If you don't want to risk the sexual side effects, a mediation like Wellbutrin may help your mood without the same risks.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> There's no magic bullet to make you stop caring about sex. The closest thing I can think of are antidepressants. An SSRI, like Prozac or Lexapro, will help stabilize your mood and it has the occasional side effect of lowering one's libido. So could help you in two different ways.
> 
> However, there is a danger where, in some cases, the sexual dysfunction is long-term, or perhaps permanent.
> 
> If you don't want to risk the sexual side effects, a mediation like Wellbutrin may help your mood without the same risks.



Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm not ready to use chemical therapy just yet. 


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Zouz, I'm really concerned with your bitterness and how you spread it as you reply to other threads.
> 
> What was that saying about getting your own house in order first?



Z is ok, at least he's not asking for vengeance like some other riff raff around here


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Z is ok, at least he's not asking for vengeance like some other riff raff around here


Yes, point taken john. You really need to stop leaving the door open!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I was thinking of pulling a Gone Girl actually


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Anon ,

You will notice it with every selfish spouse , both genders ; because in my dictionary continuous sex deprivation for years is much more than physical abuse ;and those creatures don't seek help , the even refuse any help ;* they don't appear on TAM ; do they ?*:scratchhead:

*Have you ever seen a spouse saying , hi , I'm selfish I am denying my spouse sex every night ?!*

Those who have reasons come here ; those who are cruel they just shutdown and brag even about it in front of their friends .

vengeance is not in my dictionary , when I divorce I will leave calmly and give my X all rights that are are entitled to her by law / religion without even a trial ; believe me she will even get much more than what she deserve ; I will even treat her like it is mainly my problem in this ( I am a demanding male with unreasonable needs : wanting love from my wife !)

I encourage op to leave her , no vengeance ; just leave .


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

It that because she is fat he is into leaving her ; I tell you from my modest experience ;even if she is 300 pounds : he loves her still ; I loved mine ,if she just cared :wouldn't be here ).

*Majority of us are just here , not just because we are not getting sex ;it is because it is ending with intimacy issues ; when spouse will not sacrifice giving love acts and words to a loving spouse ;just because of the stars they will not even help when their spouse becomes unable to move ; that;s the biggest fear for me .
*


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> That would be about right. I make about almost twice what she does.
> 
> Perhaps she couldn't move away with the child, but if she needed/wanted to relocate and our son wanted to go with her, I wouldn't feel like I could easily object. I wouldn't put our child in the position.
> 
> ...


As was said, you need a different lawyer because you have the facts quite wrong. Yes, retirement assets (actually all assets) are split 50/50 but this is a fair settlement right?. She has a job and can support herself, so you might owe nothing in alimony, especially given her sexual abandonment of you. You will have 50% custody, so no child support is owed.

In other words, you split the retirement, split custody, and that's about it.

I can't possibly see why you remain for 20 years with this woman.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You write that your wife is a wonderful woman but the facts speak loudly. Her morbid obesity suggests that she is not mentally well. She eats to fill her emotional needs. Your love and affection do not mean as much to her as food. She compulsively shovels it in. Dying early does not bother her. She is ready to leave her children and husband because she pushes the negatively reality from her mind.

You have reduced your interactions with her over the years to avoid being hurt. She seems not to have noticed or cared. So much for her love of you.

Your relationship is an unequal one. You are not an equal partner but a servant. She does not fear losing your affections but she does not want you to have a fulfilling relationship with her or any other woman.

Your financial anxieties are reasonable but out of all proportion. You realize that the sexless, affection-less existence is harming your health and yet you hang on. Money without health is not so enjoyable.

Is there any sign that your wife can change?

Read about the180. Read neuklas's thread.

Stop being loving and affectionate without getting anything in return. Don't say "I love you, honey buns" every day.

Smile be happy. If your wife accuses you of having an affair, she is just bullying you. You have put up with it in the past. Are you going to accept emotional abuse for the rest of your life?

You have given your children a poor model in life when it comes to marriage. They may not be conscious of it but they expect marriage to be miserable and false. They will have nice cars but unhappy relationships is they follow your example.

TAM has some other sexless marriage threads that deal with the economic choice. John, for example, can swap stories with you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

John could tell you how a couple of his friends are in the exact same situation and how they are, ehem, helping the process along by either being excellent cooks or eating out with their spouses very often


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Zouz said:


> *;just because of the stars they will not even help when their spouse becomes unable to move ; that;s the biggest fear for me .
> *



That's the whole point. The selfishness of it all, not the physical satisfaction of sex.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> You write that your wife is a wonderful woman but the facts speak loudly. Her morbid obesity suggests that she is not mentally well. She eats to fill her emotional needs. Your love and affection do not mean as much to her as food. She compulsively shovels it in. Dying early does not bother her. She is ready to leave her children and husband because she pushes the negatively realty from her mind.


I know this and I suspect she does as well. She has always been one of those type of people that leaves things to fate. If she doesn't want to do something, she will worry about it tomorrow. She has always been this way, where I prefer to attack a problem head on and try to solve it. This is just one of those differences in people. I'm neat and tidy, she's not. I'm proactive, she's reactive and passive.





LongWalk said:


> You have reduced your interactions with her over the years to avoid being hurt. She seems not to have noticed or cared. So much for her love of you.


This statement isn't entirely true. We still function very well as a married couple. Our sole problem, from my point of view, is the lack of intimacy. We still do things together, and I enjoy spending time with her. It's only at night, as she sleeps, that the creeping envy and unhappiness haunts me.





LongWalk said:


> Your relationship is an unequal one. You are not an equal partner but a servant. She does not fear losing your affections but she does not want you to have a fulfilling relationship with her or any other woman.


I have no comment on this other than to say I don't feel like her servant. Not in the commonly accepted term. 




LongWalk said:


> Your financial anxieties are reasonable but out of all proportion. You realize that the sexless, affection-less existence is harming your health and yet you hang on. Money without health is not so enjoyable.


I don't believe they are out of proportion. It is estimated that 85% of Americans my age will be living on government subsidies and charity at age 65. To have a $5,000 a month income will require in excess of one million dollars if we live to be 90. That may sound like a lot, but compare what you were making 40 years ago to what you are making now. Suddenly it doesn't look like so much. We almost have our nest egg built. Before I crack it open, I need to be very sure of what I am doing. 

Money without health is not enjoyable. But living in poverty is no picnic either. Been there, done that, don't want to return to it. 





LongWalk said:


> Is there any sign that your wife can change?


I did some hard thinking last night when I wasn't sleeping. What I realized is I had been overtaken by apathy and had stopped trying. 

So, I will try again. This weekend I will again try to get us into counseling and try to turn this around. 




LongWalk said:


> Read about the180. Read neuklas's thread.
> 
> Stop being loving and affectionate without getting anything in return. Don't say "I love you, honey buns" every day.
> 
> Smile be happy. If your wife accuses you of having an affair, she is just bullying you. You have put up with it in the past. Are you going to emotionally abused for the rest of your life?


You can only be abused so long as you let yourself be. I'm not abused. She said some things that hurt, yes. But that is the way with some people. They say things that hurt others without thinking. I'm tough and can take her occasional slings and arrows. 

When things like this happen, I use it to open up a dialog, to discuss the things that bother her. I don't get mad, I try to turn it into a positive force. Often it helps. I find out things that worry her. The accusation of the affair brought to light that she was insecure and afraid I was preparing to leave her because I was working some long hours at the time. It never even entered my mind that she would think that, but now that I know, I can address the issue. And it's helped. 





LongWalk said:


> You have given your children a poor model in life when it comes to marriage. They many not be conscious of it but they expect marriage to be miserable and false. They will have nice cars but unhappy relationships is they follow your example.


How? By being willing to work through the tough times? My mother is three times divorced. I was handed from family member to family member as a young child because she was so financially destitute after the first marriage failed that she couldn't afford to feed me. 

Later she committed adultery with her second husband and was tossed out. I was sent to live with my father who never had a care about me as he was focused on his new family. 

But I rose above all that and made good. I'm not miserable. I just wish I had something other than a good roommate. I did, at one time, and I miss that. 





LongWalk said:


> TAM has some other sexless marriage threads that deal with the economic choice. John, for example, can swap stories with you.


It's not only about the money. Does that factor in? Of course. But so does the well being of my children and providing them with a stable home life. I do not want to do to my kids what was done to me. Those scars run deep and I don't want my kids to have to go through that. 


Copper


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know this and I suspect she does as well. She has always been one of those type of people that leaves things to fate. If she doesn't want to do something, she will worry about it tomorrow. She has always been this way, where I prefer to attack a problem head on and try to solve it. This is just one of those differences in people. I'm neat and tidy, she's not. I'm proactive, she's reactive and passive.


Would you say she is avoidant?





> This statement isn't entirely true. We still function very well as a married couple. Our sole problem, from my point of view, is the lack of intimacy. We still do things together, and I enjoy spending time with her. It's only at night, as she sleeps, that the creeping envy and unhappiness haunts me.


IOW, you go along to get along and have left this issue to be rug swept for a long time. Giving your wife the message that avoiding the issue of lack of intimacy in your marriage is not a big deal.





> I did some hard thinking last night when I wasn't sleeping. What I realized is I had been overtaken by apathy and had stopped trying.
> 
> So, I will try again. This weekend I will again try to get us into counseling and try to turn this around.


Excellent!

The reason why I personally jumped to divorce ultimatum is because I have been hanging around here in SIM for two years now and from what I've seen there are 3 ways to solve this problem.

1. Discover what emotional needs your wife has and seek to meet them all. Many men come here and it is easy to see which ones are slacking and which ones aren't. You don't strike me as a slacker. 

Some men come here and it is discovered that their wives have secret sexual fantasies that the husbands are unaware of. Find out what turns her on and do it.

Some men come here and talk about a situation like yours. A wife who in all other respects is a wonderful woman, but sex is nonexistent and discussion about sex are just as stunted. This wife makes the husband feel like a pervert for wanting sex. This wife has actively turned off her sexuality. We can guess all day long about why, and I have a strong suspicion that your wife's weight is the problem. 

She hates herself and when a woman hates herself she doesn't want to share herself. She doesn't see it as a gift. She doesn't see sex as emotional goodness but revealing a disgusting part of herself. Something that brings you happiness only brings her misery. However, you've spent your entire marriage like this. You've allowed this mindset to be set in concrete. Because you've swallowed her fable about sex not being necessary she has spent 20 years with this mindset: "I am a fat disgusting and unlovable woman, he only wants to get his rocks off and I am the nearest warm place. I am insulted he would even want to have sex with someone like me. It only serves to prove it to me that men are pigs."

2. Improve yourself. Some men come here and it is discovered that their wives have lost interest in them because they are boring. Same old same old same old. Improve your game, become a better man, become more exciting, become less predictable in the bedroom. This is clearly not your case.

3. Some men come here and their wives have sexual trauma in their past they refuse to deal with. Some men are net even aware of it but the behavior they describe fits a recognizable pattern of sex avoidance. This is not your wife.








> How? By being willing to work through the tough times? My mother is three times divorced. I was handed from family member to family member as a young child because she was so financially destitute after the first marriage failed that she couldn't afford to feed me.
> 
> Later she committed adultery with her second husband and was tossed out. I was sent to live with my father who never had a care about me as he was focused on his new family.
> 
> But I rose above all that and made good.


Well you have certainly shown both your mother and father that unlike them, you are willing to go to the opposite end of the spectrum to prove how utterly worthless they were as parents. I think you've made your point and you are now entitled make a happy life for yourself. Your sacrifice has been duly noted and I'm sure your father is chagrined at being shown up as the scum bag he is.






> . I do not want to do to my kids what was done to me. Those scars run deep and I don't want my kids to have to go through that.
> 
> 
> Copper


You've made it abundantly clear that your scars are deep indeed. I am truly very sorry for the hell and pain you've gone through as a child and now as an adult.

My specific point in being ready to make an ultimatum is that with people who are avoidant, they will fight tooth and nail to continue to avoid. They will do everything they possibly can do to continue to avoid. Only when they are faced with the pain of divorce or the pain of dealing with their issue will they sometimes decide to deal with their issue. Without some teeth behind your request, you may as well continue to live a sexless life.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Zouz said:


> Anon ,
> 
> You will notice it with every selfish spouse , both genders ; because in my dictionary continuous sex deprivation for years is much more than physical abuse ;and those creatures don't seek help , the even refuse any help ;* they don't appear on TAM ; do they ?*:scratchhead:
> 
> ...



Zous, I spent many years denying my H sex. For some very valid reasons and some very invalid reasons.

Only a very very smal percentage of women are the deceitful, cruel manipulators so many men seem to think they are.

While your wife might be one of them, it is not at all the case with Copper's wife. She is none of those things. 

So stop applying your situation, coming from a country in which women have very little rights ...ahem, to every other man's situation. It. Doesn't. Fit!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> The reason I stay is . . . I spoke with my wife about perhaps going our separate ways after the accusation and *she informed me in no uncertain terms that if I left she would take me for everything she could, *and take our son and move back to her family in another part of the country.
> 
> . . . So long as I don't "hassle" her about sex, t*he marriage is amiable enough. *
> 
> ...





CopperTop said:


> . . . *she is a very good roommate. *
> 
> And, well, to be honest, I guess *I still love her. *
> 
> ...




Someone who would have no problem "taking you for everything that you have" is not amiable or a good roomate.

It is strange that you could "love" her at all. She is openly hateful and threatening to you.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Would you say she is avoidant?


Yes. But not in just this area. In all areas. If she doesn't want to do something, it takes an act of congress to get her moving.





Anon Pink said:


> IOW, you go along to get along and have left this issue to be rug swept for a long time. Giving your wife the message that avoiding the issue of lack of intimacy in your marriage is not a big deal.


Sometimes yes, I suppose I have. But I can only take so many tears and blubbered apologies and promises to do better. After a while, you begin to wonder, why bother? Nothing is going to change.





Anon Pink said:


> Excellent!
> 
> The reason why I personally jumped to divorce ultimatum is because I have been hanging around here in SIM for two years now and from what I've seen there are 3 ways to solve this problem.
> 
> ...


I know the weight is her problem. Her doctor has told her that her weight is her problem. There is nothing wrong with her that losing 150 pounds or more wouldn't cure. 

But I can't do it for her, or I would. I try to help her as much as I can. She moans about how much weight she has to loose, and how she can't do it. I tell her. "Don't worry about the 150... worry about 2. Loose just 2 pounds this week. You can do that!"

And it works for a while, but she will have a bad week and not loose anything, or worse, gain a pound, and she throws up her hands and just quits. 





Anon Pink said:


> Well you have certainly shown both your mother and father that unlike them, you are willing to go to the opposite end of the spectrum to prove how utterly worthless they were as parents. I think you've made your point and you are now entitled make a happy life for yourself. Your sacrifice has been duly noted and I'm sure your father is chagrined at being shown up as the scum bag he is.


I apologize for it coming across like that. I didn't intend for it too. I was just trying to make clear why I find it so hard to just walk. My father wasn't a bad man, just... distant. 

We had a falling out as I became an adult. I wanted to go to school and he thought higher education was waste of money. So I moved out and went on my own... but he passed before we had a chance to reconcile. 

That was me being a scumbag, and I regret it still. 




Anon Pink said:


> You've made it abundantly clear that your scars are deep indeed. I am truly very sorry for the hell and pain you've gone through as a child and now as an adult.


I've learned to use that to my advantage. I think it has made me a better, less selfish person, and it gives me drive and determination. I don't hate my parents. They have lived their lives as best than could. But I want something more for myself and my family. 




Anon Pink said:


> My specific point in being ready to make an ultimatum is that with people who are avoidant, they will fight tooth and nail to continue to avoid. They will do everything they possibly can do to continue to avoid. Only when they are faced with the pain of divorce or the pain of dealing with their issue will they sometimes decide to deal with their issue. Without some teeth behind your request, you may as well continue to live a sexless life.


But if I make that ultimatum, I have to be prepared to back it up or I will look weak and foolish. I'm not sure I'm able to walk the talk yet.

Maybe if I can get her into counseling with me, it will get better. And if not? Perhaps that will give me the push I need. 

But to be honest, the prospect of leaving terrifies me. 


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Zouz said:


> Have you ever seen a spouse saying , hi , I'm selfish I am denying my spouse sex every night ?!


Yes.

There have actually been several on TAM. They didn't use the word, "Selfish" because they honestly didn't seem seem to think that it was selfish. They appeared to be truly LD people who saw their lack of need as a need unto itself. 

I don't agree with that mindset and can't wrap my mind around it, but at the same time, I think it's probably important not to view things in the meanest possible terms.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Yes.
> 
> There have actually been several on TAM. They didn't use the word, "Selfish" because they honestly didn't seem seem to think that it was selfish. They appeared to be truly LD people who saw their lack of need as a need unto itself.
> 
> I don't agree with that mindset and can't wrap my mind around it, but at the same time, I think it's probably important not to view things in the meanest possible terms.



This, this, this, this! 

This is my wife, perfectly summed up!


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> This is my wife, perfectly summed up!


That's what makes it so hard and I do empathize with you (If that helps at all.)

The selfishness may not be deliberate or malicious, but the end result is no less real.


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## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

Copper,
I feel for you... really tough situation. I haven't read every post word for word, but scanned many and read some (all of yours, and some others). My impression is disregard most posts... but AnonPink you probably should listen to. In your thread and most others where she posts, this lady knows her stuff and I think she has the advantage of "been there, done that".

One of the things Anon said is spot on "she has spent 20 years with this mindset: 'I am a fat disgusting and unlovable woman, he only wants to get his rocks off and I am the nearest warm place. I am insulted he would even want to have sex with someone like me. It only serves to prove it to me that men are pigs.' "

^this is so true and your wife needs emotional healing to overcome this. I do not think it can be addressed directly or with traditional MC as I believe your wife is carrying serious emotional baggage from her past...childhood/family/upbringing, etc. Getting to the root of this is complex and she will no doubt resist at first so I suggest tackle something a little easier.

Your wife fearing an affair tells me she operates in fear/insecurity, but this fear and your wife being a wonderful roomate/partner in all other situations tells me she loves you. The fact that you desperately desire intimacy with her, refuse to consider an affair or leave despite no sex and morbid obesity tells me you still love her. I imagine when you look at her that you still see under all those layers the young woman you fell in love with. Awesome.

So, there is still something worth fighting for.

I believe an easier issue that would help turn her emotional state would be tackling the weight. Dieting and light exercise will not do it. You both need a lifestyle makeover. Over many years I've discovered most people are clueless about diet, weight and health and what to do about it, and most often the very same people think their diet and lifestyle is just great! 

I know you stated you work out daily, so I'm not saying you are one of those people, but I would ask you to forget what you think you know and start over. Make it your hobby and passion to learn everything you can about diet and exercise and to lead your wife into it. Most likely in the beginning you will need to be forceful and demand her participation. Take the lead in meal preparation, shopping lists and setting schedule for exercise. Make the exercise a "together" time for both of you (like a hobby) not her chore. Start at her level, meet her where she is at, leave behind all judgement and criticism, and celebrate small victories.

Regarding lifestyle/diet change... there are tons of great resources, but for one-stop shopping place to start, I would recommend get a hold of the book "The Maker's Diet"... and do everything in it (well, except for the recommendation that "rebounding" is the best exercise... she will need free weights and more).


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening octillo
Yes - this describes my wife as well.

I think that part of this is societal. We have put so much effort into telling people to "not do anything sexual that you don't want to do". that sexual selfishness is viewed as completely acceptable. Someone who would never dream of failing to do chores around the house, feels perfectly justified denying their partner a sex life. 




ocotillo said:


> Yes.
> 
> There have actually been several on TAM. They didn't use the word, "Selfish" because they honestly didn't seem seem to think that it was selfish. They appeared to be truly LD people who saw their lack of need as a need unto itself.
> 
> I don't agree with that mindset and can't wrap my mind around it, but at the same time, I think it's probably important not to view things in the meanest possible terms.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Yes - this describes my wife as well.


Yes. Mine too. Been there, done that as the saying goes.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> . . I am a SAHM and was warned that I might not even get half unless I could prove maltreatment and apparently being *a passive aggressive, cold, indifferent, disengaged, ass* isn't maltreatment.


If this is your H, Anon; then he must really depend on you for warmth and passion.

He needs you more than he knows.

Maybe this isn't a description of your H; if so, please ignore


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

intheory said:


> If this is your H, Anon; then he must really depend on you for warmth and passion.
> 
> He needs you more than he knows.
> 
> Maybe this isn't a description of your H; if so, please ignore


I should be clearer when I write these kinds of things about my husband. For the past year he has made many improvements and each time we have another issue, his effort redoubles. Right now I am very content. Over the last few weeks, mostly conent. Over the last few months, content enough to stay in this.

And yes, I know he needs me as I need him


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Copper, has your wife looked into bariatric surgery? If she is that obese for that long of a time she is the perfect candidate.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Copper, has your wife looked into bariatric surgery? If she is that obese for that long of a time she is the perfect candidate.



Yes, but... if she doesn't change her lifestyle, it will all be for naught. She needs more excercise and less pop, processed and junk food. 

A while back I finally got her to eat what I eat... lots of fruits and vegetables, almost no rerefined sugar. After a week she said she couldn't do it. She started out cheating, then just gave it up, claiming it wasn't working.

The reason it wasn't working is because she never gave it a chance.


Copper


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

That's true, she would have to change her life style. But she might not have to alter everything so drastically. She could alter some things and her body would absorb less and eliminate more.

I wonder if your excellent example might actually be making things worse for her? She figures she can't possibly meet your expectations so she doesn't even try.

In any case, your wife needs serious therapy. Good luck getting her there. I really hope you find the right words that push her buttons.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I know a woman who had surgery. She is a terrific person as far as I can tell. One difficulty that I can see is that once the weight is gone the skin does not always retract. It is not beautiful to have empty folds that once housed fatty tissue.

The threat of divorce would be good motivator. Tell your wife that she needs:

1) IC
2) diet
3) exercise
4) sex

Actually pleasurable sex would give her something to look forward to.

Your wife needs leadership. Sometimes leaders have to be tough. An idle threat of divorce would be stupid. A schedule to divorce if goals are not met might be in her best interest. You can honestly tell her that you are divorcing because you love her. Furthermore, divorce is not a goal but a consequence.

My I suggest that you copy Anon Pink's analysis of your wife's sexual dysfunction and edit it to make look like a bit of professional advice and print it out. Give it to your wife and ask her what she makes of it.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> I know a woman who had surgery. She is a terrific person as far as I can tell. One difficulty that I can see is that once the weight is gone the skin does not always retract. It is not beautiful to have empty folds that once housed fatty tissue.
> 
> The threat of divorce would be good motivator. Tell your wife that she needs:
> 
> ...



Right now she is working on her weight and making progress. When she is doing well, I am her biggest cheerleader, and when she falters I try to be her biggest booster. 

Not so long ago she lost nearly fifty pounds... but then she got frustrated, quit, and put on sixty. It's almost heartbreaking when she does stuff like that because it just feeds the "I can't do it" syndrome. 




LongWalk said:


> My I suggest that you copy Anon Pink's analysis of your wife's sexual dysfunction and edit it to make look like a bit of professional advice and print it out. Give it to your wife and ask her what she makes of it.


This would not be wise on my part. I have to tread lightly on the subject of her weight and our sex life. She easily feels that I am pressuring her and if I set that off, she will abandon her work on the diet, which will then feed into her "I can't do it." 

I want to get us into counseling and I don't want to do anything that might jeopardize my ability to do that. Right now we are harmonious. It's been over a year since I have initiated or asked for her affections, and she is feeling relaxed. I want to use these good feelings to try to get us to see a counselor. 


Copper


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Well, if you go to MC, let us hope the counsellor is competent enough to ask her whether she believes her marriage can tolerate her dysfunction. Whether you formally divorce or not if it goes on this way, your marriage will be dead regardless of its legal standing.

Have you read about co-dependency? You are enabling her self destructive behavior. What is the right strategy to change her? You can only do so much. It is up to her.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Well, Copper, as the doctor said your wife has only 3-5 years to live at her current dangerously obese weight. (5'5" 300lb +/-)

So, things just might work themselves out "naturally".

Sorry if that sounds ghoulish; but it's the plain truth.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Well, Copper, as the doctor said your wife has only 3-5 years to live at her current dangerously obese weight. (5'5" 300lb +/-)
> 
> So, things just might work themselves out "naturally".
> 
> Sorry if that sounds ghoulish; but it's the plain truth.



I know. I have been working with her, trying to help her get her weight off, but she just doesn't seem to feel any... urgency. 

She's working on it now, and succeeding, but she wasted two years. I'm afraid (though I keep it to myself) that we are in a race with the clock.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Well, if you go to MC, let us hope the counsellor is competent enough to ask her whether she believes her marriage can tolerate her dysfunction. Whether you formally divorce or not if it goes on this way, your marriage will be dead regardless of its legal standing.
> 
> Have you read about co-dependency? You are enabling her self destructive behavior. What is the right strategy to change her? You can only do so much. It is up to her.



I don't believe I am enabling as much as I am powerless to prevent it. Believe me, I've tried. But I believe am fighting a war on multiple fronts. 

I remember when, years ago, I was talking with her mother, and she (the mother in law) told me I expected too much from my wife. 

Obviously someone had been talking, and it wasn't me.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I know. I have been working with her, trying to help her get her weight off, but she just doesn't seem to feel any... urgency.
> 
> She's working on it now, and succeeding, but she wasted two years. I'm afraid (though I keep it to myself) that we are in a race with the clock.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day, you can't lose the weight for her. It has to be self-motivated. She doesn't need to do it to "keep" her husband. You sound like a devoted husband running out of viable options for nurturing your partner. Despite the advice here suggesting the contrary, you're not leaving her and we all know it.

What other targets can you create for her? Is there a family wedding coming up? A kid's graduation? 

Maybe target smaller goals. Lose 25 pounds and keep it off for a year once the target is hit. Make the goals something that can be achieved. I suspect you have already tried this. 

Whatever the outcome, I don't think you should blame yourself. It sounds like you have been a steadfast resource during your wife's long decline. I don't see enablement here. I see a quiet resignation that this is the way it's going to be.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> At the end of the day, you can't lose the weight for her. It has to be self-motivated. She doesn't need to do it to "keep" her husband. You sound like a devoted husband running out of viable options for nurturing your partner. Despite the advice here suggesting the contrary, you're not leaving her and we all know it.


Unless it gets worse, no, probably not. I'm so conflicted about it. I'm hoping the marriage counseling will help me too. 





MarriedTex said:


> What other targets can you create for her? Is there a family wedding coming up? A kid's graduation?


Nothing on the near horizon, no. I'm not sure it would matter. 





MarriedTex said:


> Maybe target smaller goals. Lose 25 pounds and keep it off for a year once the target is hit. Make the goals something that can be achieved. I suspect you have already tried this.


Her goal is to loose two pounds. Just two pounds this week. If she makes her goal, lots to cheers and congratulations. If she exceeds her goal, I get the kids in on it, announcing it during our family time and making a big deal out of it. If she misses her goal, but still looses weight for the week, I pull it back, but still tell her that she is doing great and that I am proud of her. If she gains... I try to encourage her, telling her it's just a bump on the road and everyone has them.




MarriedTex said:


> Whatever the outcome, I don't think you should blame yourself. It sounds like you have been a steadfast resource during your wife's long decline. I don't see enablement here. I see a quiet resignation that this is the way it's going to be.


I don't blame myself as much as if I wonder what else I could have done. 

I look back and wonder if the decision to move us away from her family (24 years ago) for a job relocation is what started it all. She has told me time and again how much she misses her family and how she wants to move back "home."


Copper


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You say you are not enabling but you are willing to take the blame for taking her away from her family. She missed them so she consoled herself with chocolate cake? Even if it is true, she is blame shifting. Your willingness to consider this valid is enabling.

You need to give your wife tough love.

Show her the divorce papers at MC. Set up a time schedule for her weight loss. She has to meet the schedule. Divorce is lengthy procedure so she will have time. You have to mean it.

The reason that you need to divorce her is that you shouldn't have to witness her death by obesity. That is not fair to you.

If she took up smoking would you accept that?

Stop enabling her. Pour the Coke down the sink.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

The reason you are in this situation is because you're conflict avoidant. Because of that, I'm going to keep my suggestions brief as I doubt you will act on them. 

First of all, you don't prevail in war by blowing up more of the other guys assets or soldiers. 

You prevail in war by doing one of two things:
- destroying your enemies will to fight 
OR
- persuading the enemy that it is far less risky to 'agree to terms' than continue to fight 

Your first step is to find a lawyer who takes no prisoners. 

BTW - A big reason your wife doesn't sleep with you - is that you're intimidated by her. Most women find that to be a turnoff. 

And do some research on your own. There are a lot of gray zone tactics for a guy in your shoes. They won't prevent a 50/50 asset split. But may help a LOT with your exposure to ongoing alimony. 






CopperTop said:


> I'm 52 years old, and I investigated the possibility of leaving last year when she accused me of having an affair (I wasn't, and never have).
> 
> The reason I stay is because leaving is more painful than staying. I spoke with my wife about perhaps going our separate ways after the accusation and she informed me in no uncertain terms that if I left she would take me for everything she could, and take our son and move back to her family in another part of the country.
> 
> ...


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You won't have to pay much alimony if she eats herself to death. It's not called morbid obesity for nothing.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

I hope I'm dead wrong but you're wife will have a "come to Jesus" moment the day she experiences cardiac arrest and lives.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> You say you are not enabling but you are willing to take the blame for taking her away from her family. She missed them so she consoled herself with chocolate cake? Even if it is true, she is blame shifting. Your willingness to consider this valid is enabling.
> 
> You need to give your wife tough love.
> 
> ...



Acknowledging that something may be a problem, or a root cause for a problem, is not the same as blaming myself for said problem. 

If, and I don't know that this is even true, moving her away from her family caused her to become depressed and not take care of herself, that's an issue she has to deal with. All I can do is support her while she tries to get her house in order. 

To my mind, divorce is what happens when the marriage is over. It is not a bludgeon to be used to get my way. I'm not going to file papers with my wife and tell our kids that I'm leaving until I'm going to do so. 

Why would I tell my children "Daddy's leaving" only five or six months later tell them, "Never mind." That's cruel and I won't do it. Why would they ever trust me again? If I file for divorce it will be because I have already exhausted every other recourse and here is no turning back.


Copper


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> I hope I'm dead wrong but you're wife will have a "come to Jesus" moment the day she experiences cardiac arrest and lives.


You'd think so.

I knew someone who got a cardiac stent; and a couple of weeks later was eating hamburgers and fries again.

I agree people have to "hit bottom" a lot of the time, before they will change. Unbelievable as it seems, having a major health emergency does not always register as hitting bottom


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> The reason you are in this situation is because you're conflict avoidant. Because of that, I'm going to keep my suggestions brief as I doubt you will act on them.
> 
> ...



I don't avoid conflict, but I don't see the need to be a complete ass either. I suppose I could get my way by beating her as well, but I'm not going to do that either. 

I handle our conflicts with calm and rational discussions. I point out where and why I believe she is wrong and we talk about change and how we are going to achieve that change. She does the same when she wants something from me.

Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't. Sometimes she gets what she wants, sometimes she doesn't. It's called compromise. 

I am not intimidated by her, and she isn't by me. Intimidation is cause by fear, and I don't want her to fear me. I won't use tactics that undermine her trust in me to "destroy her will to fight" or "to agree to terms" in order to avoid the consequences. 

If you see that as conflict avoidance, so be it. I do not.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> You won't have to pay much alimony if she eats herself to death. It's not called morbid obesity for nothing.





Dogbert said:


> I hope I'm dead wrong but you're wife will have a "come to Jesus" moment the day she experiences cardiac arrest and lives.



She is working on her weight right now, and doing well. She has a long way to go, but each step brings her a little closer to her goal. She is feeling positive about herself, and this weekend I am going to talk to her again about marriage counseling.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this time she will agree to go.


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

The words below are yours, not mine. Apparently you've created a marriage filled with love, trust, respect and communication. Sorry for suggesting you were at war. 

----------
The reason I stay is because leaving is more painful than staying. I spoke with my wife about perhaps going our separate ways after the accusation and she informed me in no uncertain terms that if I left she would take me for everything she could, and take our son and move back to her family in another part of the country. 
----------




QUOTE=CopperTop;11953193]I don't avoid conflict, but I don't see the need to be a complete ass either. I suppose I could get my way by beating her as well, but I'm not going to do that either. 

I handle our conflicts with calm and rational discussions. I point out where and why I believe she is wrong and we talk about change and how we are going to achieve that change. She does the same when she wants something from me.

Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't. Sometimes she gets what she wants, sometimes she doesn't. It's called compromise. 

I am not intimidated by her, and she isn't by me. Intimidation is cause by fear, and I don't want her to fear me. I won't use tactics that undermine her trust in me to "destroy her will to fight" or "to agree to terms" in order to avoid the consequences. 

If you see that as conflict avoidance, so be it. I do not.


Copper[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> She is working on her weight right now, and doing well. She has a long way to go, but each step brings her a little closer to her goal. She is feeling positive about herself, and this weekend I am going to talk to her again about marriage counseling.
> 
> I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this time she will agree to go.
> 
> ...


Her mindset should be focused on her health and quality of life, the looks will come later.

A food "cheat day" once a week or two, may also help. You could take her out to eat and she could order some favorite dish or desert. Knowing she is not going to be forever deprived of the high caloric food she loves, just may keep her on track with her lifestyle changes.

Keeping a journal of everything she puts in her mouth may also help as far as making her cognizant of what and how much she is putting in her mouth. Overweight people often fool themselves about how much they are eating, but with food journal entries, that will be very hard to do.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> The words below are yours, not mine. Apparently you've created a marriage filled with love, trust, respect and communication. Sorry for suggesting you were at war.
> 
> ...



I remember those words clearly. She lashed out in fear and anger. She tends to do that sometimes. I wish she didn't, but some people do. I'm not one of them. The madder, the more hurt I am, the more I take a step back until I can think clearly and logically. Sometimes it take until the next day before I let go of the hurt and the anger enough to discuss it without wanting to lash out myself. 

Do I think she would try to hurt me if we were to divorce? I think it depends. It depends on if she see's it as an attack, that I'm rejecting her because of some failing of hers. 

If, however, she comes to realize that it would be better for us both to go her separate ways, then perhaps not. I didn't tell her we should divorce, I asked her if she wanted out of the marriage. But I made the error of asking that at a highly emotionally charged time. In hindsight, I should have waited until the situation had cooled before I brought it up. Live and learn. 

I wasn't offended or insulted by your comment. But I can't get my head around those that say you have to make her do this or that by threatening to leave. 

I don't believe your can make someone do anything. They have to want to.

As a thought experiment, try this. Your partner buys you new clothes. They love them and want you to wear them everyday. The problem is, you hate them. Oh, and by the way, if you don't wear them everyday, your partner threatens to leave you.

I see this as playing out in one of three ways.

You knuckle under and wear the clothes because you don't want your partner to leave. But if I had to do this, I would resent it, deeply. That's not a winning solution.

Another option is you cheat. You wear the clothes when your partner is around, but when they are not, you wear what you want to wear. Now you are lying and cheating. That doesn't seem right either. 

The final option is to call their bluff and refuse the wear the clothes. If they weren't bluffing, they leave. I don't want my partner to leave. If they were bluffing, now you have shamed and embarrassed them and exposed them playing power games. 

I can't see the win in any of those options. Better to sit down and try to explain to your partner why you don't wish to wear the clothes, and get them to agree to your request because they realize they made a mistake... perhaps reach a compromise that you both can live with. 

I'm sure people will say it's not the same thing, but it is. I don't wish my wife to provide me with "duty sex." I don't want what she isn't freely willing to give. If I have to coerce her into having sex, it is time for me to go.

If I can get us into counseling, perhaps that will open up some avenues for us to explore. Or perhaps we, the two of us, will come to the realization that our marriage is finished, we should accept that, and we move on.


Copper


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> As a thought experiment, try this. Your partner buys you new clothes. They love them and want you to wear them everyday. The problem is, you hate them. Oh, and by the way, if you don't wear them everyday, your partner threatens to leave you.
> 
> I see this as playing out in one of three ways.
> 
> ...


A better analogy is:
At work your boss demands you be at your desk actively engaged in your work by 8:30am Mon-Fri. You HATE fighting the morning traffic and you HATE getting up early and you HATE having to drop your kids off at morning day care and you really HATE not having enough time to make a glorious breakfast each day.

You only have three options.

1. You do what your boss hired you to do, which is what you agreed to when you took the job.

2. You find another job that allows you the freedom to not do things you hate to do.

3. You skate. You show up mostly kind of on time carrying the breakfast muffins you didn't have time to eat holding your child's hand because you've arranged for your bosses wife to pick up your child from the office and take him to school instead of dropping your child at morning day care.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> Her mindset should be focused on her health and quality of life, the looks will come later.
> 
> A food "cheat day" once a week or two, may also help. You could take her out to eat and she could order some favorite dish or desert. Knowing she is not going to be forever deprived of the high caloric food she loves, just may keep her on track with her lifestyle changes.
> 
> Keeping a journal of everything she puts in her mouth may also help as far as making her cognizant of what and how much she is putting in her mouth. Overweight people often fool themselves about how much they are eating, but with food journal entries, that will be very hard to do.



Great advice. With the exception of the journal, we do all the above. Friday nights is dinner out night for the entire family. This is a looong tradition we have continued, and it is after her official weight day, which is Friday morning. 

Her biggest problem are pop's, processed food and lack of exercise. She know's her diet is poor, and for now at least, she is doing better in her eating habits. 

I also have her walking the dog with me. I take the dog on my normal 2.5 mile short walk, then we do another 1.25 together, at her pace. She is also using the cardio machine nearly every night. Her workout isn't strenuous, but she is doing it.

So far it is working and the weight is coming off. She is feeling good about herself and our relationship is improving again. 

I'm hoping this is the first step on a long road of recovery for us.


Copper


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper-- I agree with your perspective on threats getting you nowhere. I've been down that road myself and it is counterproductive. If you're going to divorce, just divorce-- don't threaten. If you're not going to divorce over something, then just keep your mouth shut.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> A better analogy is:
> At work your boss demands you be at your desk actively engaged in your work by 8:30am Mon-Fri. You HATE fighting the morning traffic and you HATE getting up early and you HATE having to drop your kids off at morning day care and you really HATE not having enough time to make a glorious breakfast each day.
> 
> You only have three options.
> ...



Not a bad analogy, except I'm not her boss and I don't want to be. I expect far different things from people I supervise and who are paid to do a job than I do from friends and family. 

There are millions of people that hate their job, resent how they are treated, but do their job everyday. I have days like that, when I am called in the middle of the night or on my days off, or when I have to work 36 hours straight without a break. But my company is paying me well to put up with that, and I wouldn't accept those kinds of demands from family or friends.

I don't view my marriage as work and I hope my wife doesn't either. I don't want my wife to hate her "job." If she see's our relationship as a job, something she has to put up with in order to survive, then I have failed already. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Copper-- I agree with your perspective on threats getting you nowhere. I've been down that road myself and it is counterproductive. If you're going to divorce, just divorce-- don't threaten. If you're not going to divorce over something, then just keep your mouth shut.



Ahhh... like a breath of fresh air! 


Copper


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Not a bad analogy, except I'm not her boss and I don't want to be. I expect far different things from people I supervise and who are paid to do a job than I do from friends and family.
> 
> There are millions of people that hate their job, resent how they are treated, but do their job everyday. I have days like that, when I am called in the middle of the night or on my days off, or when I have to work 36 hours straight without a break. But my company is paying me well to put up with that, and I wouldn't accept those kinds of demands from family or friends.
> 
> ...


For such an articulate man you're being rather dense.

Clearly the analogy I used was meant to illustrate how reasonable expectations are met, challenged, or disregarded entirely.

Your wife seems to be on a roll with her health which is excellent.

Now that you've posted more I can kind of see how your personality might actually be shooting yourself in the foot here. I think you might be too dispassionate for your wife to take you seriously. You may well discount this, but I think it has strong merit.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> For such an articulate man you're being rather dense.
> 
> Clearly the analogy I used was meant to illustrate how reasonable expectations are met, challenged, or disregarded entirely.
> 
> ...



I understand. But I see work and relationships as apples and oranges. In your analogy, answer #1 is the only solution. You don't like it, you can find another job.

But in a relationship, there is more room for compromise. 

I'm not sure I follow what you mean about being so dispassionate that I'm not being take seriously. Can you expound?


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

You don't have to be an ass - or worse a wife beater - to assert yourself.

The paradox is simple to describe, difficult to resolve. 
- You want your wife to WANT to have sex
- Discussing divorce creates a context of extortion 
- Therefore you avoid mentioning divorce 
And
- Feeling safe, your wife makes no effort to change

It's also true that most successful marriages - defined as:
- They are mostly mutually beneficial/happy
And
- They go the distance 

Are predicated on a certain amount of unilateral commitment. Because there are moments where - mirroring a spouse's bad faith behavior - triggers the death spiral.

But there is a world of difference between a partner who engages in the odd outburst of anger or selfishness. 

And a partner who strolls around the house humming me-me-me-me under their breath. 

---------
That said, forget about sex itself. You've tolerated something far worse than a sexless marriage. You've allowed your wife to engage in a blatant pattern of lying about WHY. 

The game of: we only have sex twice a year due to outside forces beyond my control.

THAT is toxic. And each individual instance of lying is like an acid spritz on the foundation. 

And this part is important. I'm not suggesting that you apply a blow torch when faced with blatant deception. 

I'm saying that - you say what's true and see where it goes. 

What's true is: The reason we don't have sex, is because you don't want to. Pretending otherwise isn't helpful. 

But then - you pestering her for sex - wasn't constructive. It simply caused her to associate sex with guilt (hers) and resentment (yours).

You might be on the right track now. Because she is likely very self concious about her body. 

I will however leave you with one thought. You are going to have a very hard time breaking the pattern of polite deceit. 

But if you don't fix that - there is no chance of a happy ending. 

And that will mean some tears because she's used to you going along with whatever excuse she chooses to fabricate....





CopperTop said:


> I remember those words clearly. She lashed out in fear and anger. She tends to do that sometimes. I wish she didn't, but some people do. I'm not one of them. The madder, the more hurt I am, the more I take a step back until I can think clearly and logically. Sometimes it take until the next day before I let go of the hurt and the anger enough to discuss it without wanting to lash out myself.
> 
> Do I think she would try to hurt me if we were to divorce? I think it depends. It depends on if she see's it as an attack, that I'm rejecting her because of some failing of hers.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> You don't have to be an ass - or worse a wife beater - to assert yourself.
> 
> ...



No arguments from me. Everything you say is true. I knew it then, and know it now. 

The most prevalent excuses she uses are that her back and/or hip hurts and that she is tired. I believe her. She complains about her hip (mostly) or back (sometimes) even when there is no sexual issues in play. And she can drop off to sleep faster than I would have believed possible. This doesn't happen only to avoid me, but every single time. Less than a minute after she becomes still, she's snoring.

But what do I do about it? That's the hard question. Getting the weight off will help with both issues, I'm sure. But until such time, it's a tough spot because I don't want to hurt her and having her go to sleep during the act is... depressing. And yes, that has actually happened.

It's another one of those differences in people. I hurt all the time. Whatever muscle group I worked the night before hurts the next day. But I bull through the pain and it doesn't reduce my desire one bit. My wife, on the other hand, believes in better living through chemistry. In other words, there is a medication for every ailment and if she is hurting, she doesn't want to do anything that aggravates the situation. 

Where it takes me, sometimes, hours to drop off, she can be out like I flipped a switch.


Copper


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

What about an affair? Serious question.


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I understand. But I see work and relationships as apples and oranges. In your analogy, answer #1 is the only solution. You don't like it, you can find another job.
> 
> But in a relationship, there is more room for compromise.
> 
> ...


Anon, let me step in here to answer this. If I get it wrong, please correct me.

What Anon is saying in a genteel way is that you have a milquetoast attitude towards confrontation, rendering you virtually toothless when you ask those around you to do something. In short, no one has reason to fear you or your reaction because they know there is little chance for you to react to a situation in a harsh way. 

While I'm sure you see this as an attribute to your personality - and I would generally agree - it can be a detriment in fostering long-term relationships. Doormats are not respected they are walked on. In this analogy, you are the doormat.

As I said, Anon is far more eloquent than I.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

The walking is good. I totally get the difference between you two in terms of pain/gain vs. popping pills. 

Your commitment level is admirable. 

That said, don't get your hopes up. Your wife has:
- some unhelpful traits
- twenty years of bad habits under her belt 
- and a husband who has strong protector instincts

The last bit is a blessing and a curse. 

The most likely outcome is that you apply a lot of time and emotional energy for a very, very small sustained improvement on her part. 

Right here - freeze the frame - the bit below is worth reading and then re-reading. 

You two are vastly different people. You thrive on challenge and excitement: dopamine

She navigates life using endorphins to buffer her from anything difficult, painful or risky. 

She goes through the day half asleep. It's why becoming fully asleep is so effortless for her. 

You go through the day - amp'd - which is why falling asleep is so darn hard for you. 

You want to traverse life in 5th gear. She likes first gear. At most she'll up shift to second for short periods of time to minimize conflict with you. But as soon as you stop applying pressure, she'll slide back into first gear. 

It's unfair to both of you, to expect much more than that from her at this point. 






CopperTop said:


> No arguments from me. Everything you say is true. I knew it then, and know it now.
> 
> The most prevalent excuses she uses are that her back and/or hip hurts and that she is tired. I believe her. She complains about her hip (mostly) or back (sometimes) even when there is no sexual issues in play. And she can drop off to sleep faster than I would have believed possible. This doesn't happen only to avoid me, but every single time. Less than a minute after she becomes still, she's snoring.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> What about an affair? Serious question.


No. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Anon, let me step in here to answer this. If I get it wrong, please correct me.
> 
> What Anon is saying in a genteel way is that you have a milquetoast attitude towards confrontation, rendering you virtually toothless when you ask those around you to do something. In short, no one has reason to fear you or your reaction because they know there is little chance for you to react to a situation in a harsh way.
> 
> ...



Okay.

The last part of your first paragraph rings true. I don't react violently. I stop and think the problem through. If I can't do it right then, I tell her that she has <censored> me off and I need a moment to cool off. 

So, if being thoughtful and logical is a determent, then you are implying that being impulsive and speaking before choosing your words is good.

Honestly, to me it seems like just a way to escalate the problem. You end up shouting at each other, calling each other names, and saying things you later regret. Why is that better? 


Copper


<Edit>
Something just occurred to me. Are you saying that respect only comes from fear? Can't I be respected without being feared? I feel like I have the respect of my wife. I want that. I don't want her to fear me.
</Edit>


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> The walking is good. I totally get the difference between you two in terms of pain/gain vs. popping pills.
> 
> ...



Damn... that's depressing. 

I have to try the counseling. I have to give it that much effort. But if this is what ends up coming out of counseling, then perhaps I can accept our marriage just isn't meant to be.

One last question, if I may? Why is the protector instinct a bad thing? I feel you're right in calling me that way because I would willingly and without thought give my life for hers. This applies to my children as well. Maybe even strangers. 

I stepped into a fight once, a man was slapping a woman around in a parking lot. I didn't even think. It turned out okay and the guy, once I got between him and his girlfriend, calmed down. 

But my wife ripped me a new one. She said I could have been killed. To be honest, I didn't even think about it. I just couldn't let this guy smack the woman around. 


Copper


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well, there's always ice cream.
Dad


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Okay.
> 
> The last part of your first paragraph rings true. I don't react violently. I stop and think the problem through. If I can't do it right then, I tell her that she has <censored> me off and I need a moment to cool off.
> 
> ...



You can call people out - in the moment - without have to resort to yelling. 

It really becomes very primal and basic here. If the dog poops on your couch, is it more effective to correct the behavior at the moment that the act is happening or to wait and correct the dog three hours after the fact.

Though the analogy is not perfect, people behave much the same way. If they know they are to be called out in the moment, they are less likely to engage in behavior that other people would see as objectionable. She can rely on you to take the high road at all times, taking the edge off of any response that you might give.

Us nice guys see this as a positive attribute, but actually this "shield of civility" blocks us from communicating even basic issues that are important to us. Rather than sharing our authentic feelings, we hide behind the shield of civility. Much less messy that way. Less confrontation in the moment. Unfortunately, it also means less resolution of on-going issues. 

This is the essence of the "No More Mr Nice Guy" books by Glover. We cloak ourselves in kindness because that was what we were taught to do from a young age. It's how we get along with people. But, ultimately, we sabotage our relationships by not providing the authentic feedback in real-time that allows others to interact with us in a healthy way.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> You can call people out - in the moment - without have to resort to yelling.
> 
> It really becomes very primal and basic here. If the dog poops on your couch, is it more effective to correct the behavior at the moment that the act is happening or to wait and correct the dog three hours after the fact.
> 
> ...



I follow what you are saying. And I feel like I do make my feeling known. 

Okay, sure, I'm not yelling or what ever, but if I say, "Now that really <censored> me off. Why do you feel like that?" in a firm, but quiet voice, I think it it should be pretty clear that I'm not happy. 

If what she says next makes it even worse, I will say usually something like, "I need a minute to cool off before I will say something that I will later regret" or "You need to go calm down so we can discuss this rationally." 

Once one or both of us have had a ten count, then we begin to explore why she feels the way she does. 

When she is the one that gets mad first, she will often say something that she later apologizes for. Are you saying this is better?

I read the No More Mister Nice Guy. I'm not "that" guy. I don't apologize unless I'm wrong. If I believe I am right, and she doesn't like it, she can suck a lemon.

But my way, I don't have to apologize for saying something that I know is wrong and I don't hurt her feelings by saying things that I later wish I hadn't. 


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

I called the protector instinct a mixed blessing because it is. 

Here's an example of where it hurts. 

When you avoid saying things that are true and constructive / helpful for long term growth because you don't want your partner to feel bad in the moment. 

Wife gains 10 pounds - says to H - I'm fat

H loudly says - no you aren't, you're beautiful

Wife gains another 10 pounds - rinse repeat the above conversation - and another until she is morbidly obese: hypertensive, pre diabetic with hip and back pains

He has protected her feelings as best he could along the way to her being medically and emotionally miserable. 

I don't think it's ever constructive to respond with: yes you're fat

I do believe it's helpful to say what's true. Which might be: I love walking with you. And my plan is for us to be walking, hiking, vacationing together in our 70's. Lately the path you've gotten on is making me worry that won't happen. 

Let's try and get into a healthier routine. Maybe a walk at night and a little more care with what we buy at the grocery store. 

Now this will produce tears and anger in many folks. And an insistent, angry repetition of: you DO think I'm fat!!!

And the only answer to that is: I love you, and you are gaining weight in a manner that's going to eventually limit what WE do together as a couple. Lots of folks eat themselves into an early grave. I won't sit here and nod and smile while you do that. 

Ultimately though - these are her choices. You can encourage and support. You can refuse to be an enabler. But you can't do it for someone. 




QUOTE=CopperTop;11959105]Damn... that's depressing. 

I have to try the counseling. I have to give it that much effort. But if this is what ends up coming out of counseling, then perhaps I can accept our marriage just isn't meant to be.

One last question, if I may? Why is the protector instinct a bad thing? I feel you're right in calling me that way because I would willingly and without thought give my life for hers. This applies to my children as well. Maybe even strangers. 

I stepped into a fight once, a man was slapping a woman around in a parking lot. I didn't even think. It turned out okay and the guy, once I got between him and his girlfriend, calmed down. 

But my wife ripped me a new one. She said I could have been killed. To be honest, I didn't even think about it. I just couldn't let this guy smack the woman around. 


Copper[/QUOTE]


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> I called the protector instinct a mixed blessing because it is.
> 
> ...



I plead guilty your honor.

That is a VERY constructive bit of advice. Thank you very much.


Copper


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> You can call people out - in the moment - without have to resort to yelling.
> 
> It really becomes very primal and basic here. If the dog poops on your couch, is it more effective to correct the behavior at the moment that the act is happening or to wait and correct the dog three hours after the fact.
> 
> ...



Exactly!

Sometimes a woman wants to know her man cares enough to be pissed off! Calm reasoned logical=snooze fest. Show me the passion baby!


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Sometimes a woman wants to know her man cares enough to be pissed off! Calm reasoned logical=snooze fest. Show me the passion baby!



This is a serious question.

How do you show "passion" and still not engage in hurtful behaviors? 


Copper


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> This is a serious question.
> 
> How do you show "passion" and still not engage in hurtful behaviors?
> 
> ...


Start by speaking Italian.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Io amo il mio caro, ma se non fai CrossFit, abbiamo finito. D'ora in poi aspettarsi amore dura, per non voglio guardare passivamente mangiate voi stessi a morte.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Io amo il mio caro, ma se non fai CrossFit, abbiamo finito. D'ora in poi aspettarsi amore dura, per non voglio guardare passivamente mangiate voi stessi a morte.



That is classic. It does sound much better in Italian. Thank you for the laugh.

Taking into account your location... Google Translate or native speaker?


Copper


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> This is a serious question.
> 
> How do you show "passion" and still not engage in hurtful behaviors?
> 
> ...


Oy vey, are we starting from scratch here?

Imagine eating the best food you've ever had. What are your eyes doing, what are your other facial muscles doing? What sounds, if any, are you making? The passionate eater is rolling his eyes, his eyebrows are up and down up and down, he may even squint from time to time. He is making yumyumyum noises and rolling his head around his neck.

Passion denotes the depth of feeling. Deep into every part of your body. If you're angry your eyes are steely and intimidating, an eyebrow raised, mouth in a straight line, fists clenched, teeth grinding, other muscles rigid. Whatever you're feeling, you're feeling it everywhere. Allow your body to show your feelings. It's okay to raise your voice a little, but more lethal is to lower your voice to a growl. It's okay to pace a little while making your point, but more lethal is to be absolutely still.

None of this is abusive but all of it demonstrates clear anger and irritation. 

Your role as a partner is NOT to subvert your emotions but to engage them in a healthy way. It is healthy to demonstrate how deeply you feel, how strongly you feel. It is not healthy to burry it under cold logic and reason.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Start by speaking Italian.


Yes, we Italians love our passion in all its forms!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, we Italians love our passion in all its forms!


This, from earlier in the thread, isn't passionate? Not passionate enough? I'm really trying to understand.




CopperTop said:


> I follow what you are saying. And I feel like I do make my feeling known.
> 
> Okay, sure, I'm not yelling or what ever, but if I say, "Now that really <censored> me off. Why do you feel like that?" in a firm, but quiet voice, I think it it should be pretty clear that I'm not happy.
> 
> ...



As a general rule, I'm not a demonstrative person. I don't talk with my hands for example. 

I'm also not quick to anger. Getting cut of in traffic normally gets a sigh rather than a rant or the finger. 


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Less than a minute after she becomes still, she's snoring.

Sounds like she might suffer from sleep apnea. This could also kill her desire for sex and cause depression. The depression will contribute to her over eating.

I hope she doesn't end up like one of those people on the "My 600 pound Life" show. 

Do you buy pop and other unhealthy things for her?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Less than a minute after she becomes still, she's snoring.
> 
> Sounds like she might suffer from sleep apnea. This could also kill her desire for sex and cause depression. The depression will contribute to her over eating.
> 
> ...



No. Not in the way I suspect you mean. If we go out for dinner and she orders a pop, I don't say anything, but I don't go to the store and stock up for home. But then, I don't do much of the shopping, either. 

One other thing, just so everyone is clear. She doesn't sit down and eat an entire cake or an entire bag of chips in one sitting. She doesn't sit around stuffing Ho-Hos in all day either. 

But what she does eat, processed foods, are loaded with fat and calories, and she doesn't get enough exercise to offset the calories. If she would change what she eats, more than the quantity she eats, she would loose weight. 


Copper


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> This is a serious question.
> 
> How do you show "passion" and still not engage in hurtful behaviors?
> 
> ...


Copper, 

This is actually an EXCELLENT question and one which I had to wrestle with myself for years. So a little background: by nature I'm an introvert, very easy-going, very funny and not that much bothers me. When something does bother me, I have an emotional reaction (like crying) and then my brain kicks back in and I think about it and I'm done. Okay? Just generally a very laid back person. 

But like anyone, there are things that occur which are "not okay with me." Now there's a lot that I can live with and copy with and get used to ...but some things just are "not okay" and what I used to do is to ignore those "not okays" until they piled up and piled up. Then something would happen that's un-related but also "not okay" and rather than reacting to the current thing...the whole pile of all those "not okays" would come out in anger. 

Now, I did not like being angry, but that was the only way I ever saw demonstrated to "be" angry. You explode and scream and yell and say things you regret--maybe throw things and make threats. That was my model (a poor model, by the way, but what I was familiar with). And honestly, I did not want to be that kind of person so I avoided it as much as I could. However, being human, I could not avoid it all the time, and eventually it would come out...and I KNEW it was an over-reaction and yet it was like a volcano erupting. 

So what I did--I read some books about anger ("The Dance of Anger" comes to mind) to learn more about what anger was and how to change. I went to an anger management support group. And I learned that anger is just like any emotion (joy, happiness, sorrow, depression)...it's a SIGNAL. It's a myself trying to tell myself something, and for me I was trying to tell myself: "I am not okay with this!"

But I had learned to ignore the signal. And when I was sort of aware of the signal (i.e., I felt a little anger), I avoided it and stuffed it down. I told the signal it was not important--which was in effect telling myself that how I felt and what I perceived was not important: I WAS NOT IMPORTANT. 

What I learned to do differently was to begin to recognize the bodily signals that "I was not okay with that" and to recognize the feeling of a little anger. So I noticed I tend to hold my breath when I don't want the anger to come out. I tend to clench my teeth. I feel tension in my shoulders and neck...as if my very body is trying to PREVENT me from opening my mouth and saying what has to be said! 

Now when I notice that I'm holding my breath or clenching my teeth, I check in with myself: "Is there something I am not okay with?" The idea is to check and see if there's something that is bothering me...just a little. At that point it's not huge, must a little niggle of "this isn't good" or "this doesn't match with who I am or what I'm willing to do." So once I've figured out that yep--I'm not okay with (X), then I do some very specific things:

1. I purposefully take the time to breathe. Since I tend to hold my breath--consciously choosing to breathe helps me get out of "emotional" mode and into "thinking/rational" mode. 

2. I make sure to define and identify very specifically exactly what it is that is "not okay." Sometimes this takes a while because I don't say "You are eating too much"...that has nothing to do with me! I say something like "When you (insert action to identify the issue), I think (insert thoughts I have), I feel (insert my feelings using descriptive terms), SO I'D LIKE TO ASK IF WE COULD (insert proposed solution or request)."

Here's why I do it like that. So often people like to make some sort of complaint but then offer no clue how to fix it! If all I said was "You're eating too much" that doesn't express that I'm not okay with it, or my thoughts or feelings, or what would make it better for me. Maybe I mean 'You are getting too fat" and maybe I mean "We only have $40 for groceries this week and you ate a whole weeks worth of burgers in one sitting"--those are different scenarios!

3. Finally after I'm calm, and I've identified it very clearly inside my own head, then I tell myself that I HAVE TO SPEAK UP! My spouse is a partner in my life, and they deserve to know the True ME...and that includes being informed when things are "not okay with me." Now me, I'm a little bit afraid, but I set little rules in my mind, like I won't like 24 hours go by once I've identified it, and I won't start the talk at 2am... that kind of thing. And I open up my mouth and say "I need to talk to you about something that is not okay with me, and I would like to see if we can find a solution together." Right off the bat, I try to make it like it is an issue WE have as a TEAM not just me forcing my spouse to do it my way or him forcing me to do it his way. We BOTH have the issue.

So right now you are "not okay" with having a sexless marriage. Right now you are avoiding it or stuffing it down,and every so often it comes to the surface. And right now your wife is forcing you to do it HER way. 

So you show passion by caring deeply about something, and caring enough to get unstuck, and caring enough to not engage in the same old fight, and caring enough to learn about expressing anger appropriately, and caring enough to identify it clearly within your own self, and caring enough to share it with the partner of your life.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Copper,
> 
> This is actually an EXCELLENT question and one which I had to wrestle with myself for years. So a little background: by nature I'm an introvert, very easy-going, very funny and not that much bothers me. When something does bother me, I have an emotional reaction (like crying) and then my brain kicks back in and I think about it and I'm done. Okay? Just generally a very laid back person.
> 
> ...



You sound quite a lot like me. Affable, etc. 

I do tell my partner when I don't like something. But apparently I'm not "passionate" enough in my reactions. 

In the sexless marriage area, though, I haven't made progress. Not because we haven't talked about. We have talked about until, a little more than a year ago, I just dropped it. 

I dropped it because I was tired of beating my head against the wall and wanted to stop. I needed a break. Then, it became a habit. 

It wasn't until I was here, begging for ways to cope with my creeping bitterness, that I realized I had given up even trying. Having realized this, I am girding my loins to try again. 

What will come of it? I have no idea. But I received a very interesting bit of advice in this thread about my "protector" instinct that I'm going to try. It was one of those light bulb, holy <censored>, moments that one gets every now and then. 


Copper


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, we Italians love our passion in all its forms!


I speak a little french, german and spanish, but I've always thought Italian was right up there with the best of the romance languages.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> This, from earlier in the thread, isn't passionate? Not passionate enough? I'm really trying to understand.
> 
> As a general rule, I'm not a demonstrative person. I don't talk with my hands for example.
> 
> ...


In short. No. 


Why are strong emotions uncomfortable for you? Your dispassionate logical response does not speak to your wife's emotional base of understanding. You want to reach her, stop subverting your emotions. 

She doesn't want sex with you! Doesn't that piss you off! How dare she pretend this marriage is so great when she wont even let her husband see her naked for the past 18 years! And THATS her definition of a good marriage? 
<insert loud phlegmy hairball cough>

She lies to you about why she doesn't want sex and you take it? Doesn't that piss you off? How dare she lie to you about that? You're her husband and you've stood by her through all of this and yet she can't come out and tell you the truth! The truth is that she hates her body and as long as she doesn't have to admit that out loud she can pretend it's not real and continue to eat herself into an early grave!
<inset gesture of throwing my hands up in the air followed by agitated motions of running my hands through my hair>

No Copper, your version of passion looks like the social studies teacher I had in high school who never got off his lecture stool and never stopped his lecture even when we misbehaved like crazy hooligans in his class.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

Hope it helps. There's nothing obvious about this - approach. 

ERGO - no reason for you to feel bad. 

There's an art to telling the truth. 



CopperTop said:


> I plead guilty your honor.
> 
> That is a VERY constructive bit of advice. Thank you very much.
> 
> ...


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> Hope it helps. There's nothing obvious about this - approach.
> 
> ...


MEM, I've been waiting for you to drop your specific story (If I'm recalling correctly) about how you dealt with the LD situation. While not entirely a match for his story, I think it might speak to his "logic" to the situation. If only he could take off his KISA shield and see the situation for what it was, maybe that would be the push he needed to get some real change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jonota,
His story and mine are radically different for a number of reasons. 

The first might seem simplistic but it's remarkably powerful. 

If I'm not willing to tolerate a lifetime of bad behavior then I won't tolerate a month of it. 

So - when M2 got radically off course - she was experiencing consequences very quickly. 

Second - my social chemistry with M2 was remarkable. So - denying her my company - was very effective. 

That said, my 'list' of requirements was rather short. Hers was quite long. After satisfying most of her wants/needs very well it wasn't all that difficult to say: Hey - I matter too - in a sharp voice. 

Within the first year M2 learned that:
- Sex was a huge positive amplifier with me
- Attempts to use sex in a transactional manner were a total bust
- Deprioritizing sex resulted in me deprioritizing the overall relationship 

But then - I'll come back to the primary marital bond - social chemistry. M2 knew I enjoyed her company. And she very much enjoyed / needed mine. So in our entire marriage she never once said to me: all you care about is sex

Good thing too - I would have laughed at her since that was so obviously false. And then I would have said: all YOU care about is money - me providing. Which would have provoked a similar response as it was a perfect analogy. Remove the sex and the marriage ends. Remove the money and the marriage ends. 

Was either factor the reason we stayed together? Hell no. Was each factor a requirement? You betcha. 

I know that seems - harsh. But it is neither harsh, nor cold it is simply true. And it would have been true with any partner for her or for me. So why pretend otherwise.

It's also true that I had a very simplistic approach. If M2 was:
- sick 
- upset
- exhausted
I took care of her. Without comment or complaint. 

She had terrible morning sickness with our third and last child. I was working 6 days a week. And so for 6 days and roughly 60 hours a week - I hired a nanny to care for M2 and our two children. The nanny cared for M2 for 3-4 months. I have no memory of how often we had sex during that time. All I know for certain is that I didn't initiate once - during that time. So however often we had sex - and honestly it might have been 2-3 times a week or once a week - it was solely due to M2 initiating. 

As for my affect during this time. I was 100% focused on M2. Not me. Not sex. Not the cost of the nanny. Just M2's well being. And she knew that. 

I know that some women are put off by my - style. Simply put, M2 was adamant about being a SAHM - and she was an excellent mother. That said, 100% of the financial burden fell on me. So early on we both accepted that:
- I'd provide by working as hard as need be 
AND
- She'd make sure I was VERY happy as a husband. 






ET1SSJonota said:


> MEM, I've been waiting for you to drop your specific story (If I'm recalling correctly) about how you dealt with the LD situation. While not entirely a match for his story, I think it might speak to his "logic" to the situation. If only he could take off his KISA shield and see the situation for what it was, maybe that would be the push he needed to get some real change.


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I absolutely agree on major fundamental differences in personality. I recognized that with your first post - and how your perception was most likely right on. However, what I wanted to have demonstrated was the straightforwardness of the interaction, and how it was neither damaging or insulting. It simply stuck with unimpassioned facts. Isn't that what you're going for Copper Top?

Consider the ease of the basics here. If you didn't provide for the family, would she be satisfied? Would she simply say that you were catering to your needs and shan't be pushed to provide more? Would you threaten nuclear war if she pushed for more? I'm willing to bet you know the answers to these questions, and are aware enough to recognize that the parallels for you are not being answered in the same way. Is this loving behavior? Is this good "partner"? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

So you can remove all the deleterious names and roles ("devious", "deliberate", "intentional") all you want, but the end result is the same. Again sticking strictly with logic here, using such defenses in a court of law doesn't REMOVE the consequences, it simply changes the scope of the punishment. It is STILL recognized for the crime that it is and dealt with.

On another angle, you talk about how not being impassioned or emotional/in the moment seems to be the right way to go. Recognize that this is YOUR perception as well - why do you push it on her? That seems to be an odd contradiction to the way you deal with the lack of intimacy. I say this for 2 reasons.

The first is that in my personal relationship (to some degree), and in several that I have been given a good look inside, however illogical the woman WANTED to see uncontrolled or barely controlled emotion. Jealousy, anger, etc are all signs of deep emotional connection. While they can obvious be taken too far, consider that the common statement is that hate is NOT the opposite of love. Apathy is. So if you never show your emotion, never show HOW MUCH it matters to you - why should she believe your "words"? Your actions say otherwise. 

Which leads to the second reason, and addresses your discussion on fear/divorce threats/using punishment to "manipulate". The "threat" of divorce, just as you say, is relatively meaningless if you aren't going to go through with it. You'll see countless threads on this site alone that discuss how in order to improve a relationship, the vast majority of times you have to be willing to leave it/give it up. That's not just some cliche-y words. It seems to be a powerful motivator for people that setting actual boundaries and being held to them makes the relationship better. Without them, you ARE just being a doormat. No matter how "alpha" you think you are, accepting the unacceptable is just that. 

Another "saying" around here I find very powerful is that we teach people how to treat us. Consider that statement for a LONG time please. You have "trained" your wife, through action or inaction, words or omission, to behave this way with you. Therefore, the only way out of it is to behave in such a way that makes it clear that this behavior is no longer tolerable. 

In the end, the discussion about divorce is one you need to have. Why? Because it would be you being honest. You are clearly giving it consideration, and as much as you are hesitant at this time, how many older loving couples enjoying each other are you going to have to see before you realize you've only got so much more time, and being miserable and lonely late at night in your own bed with your wife just isn't cutting the mustard anymore? She may think she's got the entire situation all wrapped up, Copper Top under her thumb and all she has to do is give up ABC sex and you'll trudge along through the rest of life. 

Jon

PS - I'm honestly also having a hard time not tying the sex and her weight issues together. You say her weight issues have been going on for a long time, and you've basically kept the same tactic on it. Maybe it's time for a change. Maybe you should tell her that you love her too much to see her kill herself. 3-5 years? That sounds DRASTIC. Maybe YOU need to be drastic. For her, and yourself. A separation might be the best thing ever for her health - no CopperTop to lean on and keep her going might be the spark she needs to finally drop the weight, and in doing so save her life.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> The first is that in my personal relationship (to some degree), and in several that I have been given a good look inside, however illogical the woman WANTED to see uncontrolled or barely controlled emotion. Jealousy, anger, etc are all *signs of deep emotional connection. * While they can obvious be taken too far, consider that the common statement is that hate is NOT the opposite of love. Apathy is. So if you never show your emotion, never show HOW MUCH it matters to you - why should she believe your "words"? Your actions say otherwise.




This! This is exactly what I was trying to say but you said it perfectly!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jonota,
Great post - QFT.

My mother and most of her friends - had a mindset that I was truly appalled by. 

They were VERY judgemental of young unmarried women who were overweight, but she and most of her friends got fat AFTER getting married. 

So they KNEW that fitness was a big deal to men - but blew it off after marriage. 

That seemed fvcked up to me. So - I - preemptively had the fat talk with M2 BEFORE we got engaged. Yes I know. This seems shallow. But my view of marriage was - one and done. So I said what was true which was this:

I know everyone commits to monogamy when they marry. The thing is I'm not doing it because everyone else does. I'm committing to it because going forward - I'm ONLY going to sleep with YOU. If you glance thru my photo album you'll note that I don't date/sleep with ummm - fat females. This isn't a social status choice. I am NOT attracted to fat folks. 

So M2 - being M2 - hammered me pretty hard. 
M2: So how much of a weight gain allowance do I get for being pregnant? What about twins? How many months do I get to lose the baby fat? 

After beating me senseless - she smiled and said: I'm not ok with letting myself go. So it's not something you need to worry about.

I just said: good - and left it at that. She was good to her word. 

To be totally fair, we DID have a weight issue and it DID Fvck up our sex life for a while. I stopped lifting and became - skinny. M2 HATES skinny. She was patient. Honest but patient. But after a year she started asking me: how much? When I was on the bathroom scale. And it was obvious she wasn't liking the answers. And obvious that her desire was impacted. 

So I went back to the gym and the weights and packed on 30+ pounds of muscle at which point everyone was happy again. 

And at the low point in that situation - M2 was not hesitant about asking me tough questions. Her favorite was: what rhymes with hypocrite? 

My view of that situation couldn't be simpler. Desire is like gravity. It's there. You can work with it, or you can try to fight it. But in the end - reality is what it is. And trying to pretend otherwise is at best foolish and at worst dangerous.....





ET1SSJonota said:


> I absolutely agree on major fundamental differences in personality. I recognized that with your first post - and how your perception was most likely right on. However, what I wanted to have demonstrated was the straightforwardness of the interaction, and how it was neither damaging or insulting. It simply stuck with unimpassioned facts. Isn't that what you're going for Copper Top?
> 
> Consider the ease of the basics here. If you didn't provide for the family, would she be satisfied? Would she simply say that you were catering to your needs and shan't be pushed to provide more? Would you threaten nuclear war if she pushed for more? I'm willing to bet you know the answers to these questions, and are aware enough to recognize that the parallels for you are not being answered in the same way. Is this loving behavior? Is this good "partner"? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
> 
> ...


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Copper,

A lot of the advice you are getting is kind of telling you that your natural personality "isn't right" for the task at hand (setting your wife straight about how you feel about your sexless marriage, her obesity).

That advice is probably right, I guess. It's certainly well intentioned. I'm just saying this to sympathize with you. I love people who are calm and logical during everyday communication; especially when it comes to problem solving.

I think the "intimidating" (?) form of your type of personality is to become frighteningly cold and detached. Would that feel more natural to you? Instead of trying to work up faux rage and anger that doesn't really match your style.

How would your wife respond to you explaining to her exactly what you want; logically and without rancor? Then if she doesn't show improvement, you just gradually get more icy and remote.

I hope your wife continues to make progress with her weight loss; I really do.

But I sense a person who does what she pleases; and can get really nasty if she thinks she might have to face legitimate consequences for her behavior.

I'm sure sex can be very uncomfortable for her in her current physical state. How is it for you; having sex with someone who is at such a weight? I know that is personal. I'm not asking you to reply to that in detail. I know the lack of closeness and intimacy that can accompany sex is painful. I get that, believe me. But physically; how much do you really enjoy this? You could get an orgasm masturbating.

I'm sorry if that is hurtful. But other than a reality check, I would hope this might make you stronger. As in, "I can do without that." Once again, if you end up widowed or divorced, any detachment you develop now, might help you get through, because detachment can be a form of recognizing that you don't have something, so why have feelings of despair or frustration over it?

I'm only going by what I've read in your posts. So I could be so off-base. I hope your wife succeeds in her weight loss. And I hope you can effectively reason with her, without having to assume a persona that is not you.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Jonota,
> 
> To be totally fair, we DID have a weight issue and it DID Fvck up our sex life for a while. I stopped lifting and became - skinny. M2 HATES skinny. She was patient. Honest but patient. But after a year she started asking me: how much? When I was on the bathroom scale. And it was obvious she wasn't liking the answers. And obvious that her desire was impacted.
> 
> So I went back to the gym and the weights and packed on 30+ pounds of muscle at which point everyone was happy again.


As usual, Mem, I have to admire your success.

But if you ever get "skinny" again, because you can't keep up the weight regimen. I hope you know that your natural body type (ectomorph?) is a very attractive one. And, for the most part, being skinny over your lifetime is so much better for your heart and joints and general health.

Glad you've been able to successfully modify yourself to be something that is more appealing to your wife. You are married, after all.

But I hope that deep inside, you do not feel like being a man and having a lean, thin body naturally is "wrong". Because it just isn't.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> In short. No.
> 
> 
> Why are strong emotions uncomfortable for you? Your dispassionate logical response does not speak to your wife's emotional base of understanding. You want to reach her, stop subverting your emotions.
> ...



Yes, all that upsets me. It makes me angry, but it also makes me sad. 

Below I will describe a specific instant and what I did. If you are willing, I would like to hear how you would have handled it, and why your way is better than mine. 

============


We were preparing for bed and for the first time in a long while, she had signaled her willingness. My phone rings. It's the plant. I have to take the call because I am on call with a ten minute call-back provision. Ignoring the call is not an option as it would result in reprimand and/or possible termination. 

It takes about ten minutes for me to coach the person at the plant through a work-around so they could continue through the night and I didn't have to go in and solve the problem right then. 

When I'm done, wife is in bed, asleep. I know from experience waking her for any reason that doesn't involve escaping bodily fluids or risk of imminent injury is a bad idea. 

I'm annoyed that work had interfered and hurt and annoyed that she couldn't stay awake for five <censored> minutes until I could get off the phone. 

<Censor> it! I would have to go in to work in only a few hours anyway! I bathed, dressed, and left for work.

On the way to work I kind of right with my anger and frustration. I spent the rest of the night and all my regular shift at work. Leaving early wouldn't have bought me anything as wife would have been at work anyway.

After an eighteen hour shift, I arrived home at my normal time in a good mood. She was willing the night before, maybe she would be tonight. But she's frosty and I don't know why. She knows that I sometimes get called for work, but it's only once a month or so.

As we prepare for bed she is more cold and distant than normal. I talk to her, trying to find out what is bothering her, and she finally wants to know where I went the night before. 

This is when I found out she thought I was having an affair. We were behind on a project at work and I had been working longer hours to catch us up. I am shocked into silence. That is the LAST thing I would have guessed was bothering her. I'm not mad, just surprised.

We talk it around a bit and I show her how I couldn't have been having an affair. I offer proof of my whereabouts (security logs at work from my electronic pass) and point out how I am rarely alone.

Anyway, she finally thaws and we make up. No sex, but at least we were cuddling. In hindsight, I should have taken my win and called it game done, but I was bothered about her accusing me of having an affair. She had to be deeply unhappy to say something like that, right? I was afraid to ask, but I had to know.

So I asked her if she wanted out of the marriage. That started another round of accusations and recriminations and this is when she said if I ever left she would try to take me for everything she could. 

I just wanted to pull the plug on this entire conversation. I started the argument out of my own insecurities and had scared her into thinking I was leaving. I wasn't leaving her, and I assured her of such to calm her fears. 

It was chilly around the house for a few days, but I let her stew. This was her issue to work out, not mine, and finally she came around and the ship righted itself.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I absolutely agree on major fundamental differences in personality. I recognized that with your first post - and how your perception was most likely right on. However, what I wanted to have demonstrated was the straightforwardness of the interaction, and how it was neither damaging or insulting. It simply stuck with unimpassioned facts. Isn't that what you're going for Copper Top?
> 
> Consider the ease of the basics here. If you didn't provide for the family, would she be satisfied? Would she simply say that you were catering to your needs and shan't be pushed to provide more? Would you threaten nuclear war if she pushed for more? I'm willing to bet you know the answers to these questions, and are aware enough to recognize that the parallels for you are not being answered in the same way. Is this loving behavior? Is this good "partner"? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying. But... that's just not me. And really, the highly charged emotional person isn't her either. Yes, sometimes she says hurtful things, but most of the time, our discussions are calm and rational and either of us are that upset. We just want to clear the air. You make it sound like people enjoy fighting. Is that even possible?

She has two sensitive points. Her weight and our sex life. Poking and prodding there tends to be where she gets upset. 

To be honest, I don't know HOW to be the person you seem to think I should be. I suppose I could go around, throwing my hands in the air etc, but honestly I think my family would see right through the act.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if your approach will work in my situation or not. You can't MAKE someone do something. If she doesn't want to change, all the the histrionics in the world won't change that. If she doesn't know by now that I'm not content with our level of intimacy, I just don't see how my being passionate (what ever that means) will convince her. 

And the other thing that bothers me is, everyone seems to think I'm 100% right and she is 100% wrong, where it comes to withholding of sex. But I suspect if you were to ask another low-demand person they would give you the opposite answer. 

I'm trying to take into account her wants and needs and not just focus on my own. Is there no compromise? Does it have to be all or nothing? 


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

I agree - you have to be authentic. Your style is part of you. 





CopperTop said:


> I understand what you are saying. But... that's just not me. And really, the highly charged emotional person isn't her either. Yes, sometimes she says hurtful things, but most of the time, our discussions are calm and rational and either of us are that upset. We just want to clear the air. You make it sound like people enjoy fighting. Is that even possible?
> 
> She has two sensitive points. Her weight and our sex life. Poking and prodding there tends to be where she gets upset.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> A lot of the advice you are getting is kind of telling you that your natural personality "isn't right" for the task at hand (setting your wife straight about how you feel about your sexless marriage, her obesity).
> 
> ...


Yes. This sounds about right. If you won't help me, fine, get the <censored> out of my way and I will just do it myself. That's more how I approach problems.





intheory said:


> I hope your wife continues to make progress with her weight loss; I really do.
> 
> But I sense a person who does what she pleases; and can get really nasty if she thinks she might have to face legitimate consequences for her behavior.


Yes. This is true. I don't mean that in a bad way, but it manifests in a lot of little ways. Being on time? That's important to me because I realize that other people's time is important too. My wife? Meh. Whatever. They'll wait. 

My friends call me a "neat freak." It's all in good fun, but I am the type of person that has a place for everything, and everything is in it's place. My wife, despite years of trying to change her, where she sits something down is where it belongs. I finally gave up on this fight because it was clear she wasn't going to change and it just wasn't worth fighting over anymore. 




intheory said:


> I'm sure sex can be very uncomfortable for her in her current physical state. How is it for you; having sex with someone who is at such a weight? I know that is personal. I'm not asking you to reply to that in detail. I know the lack of closeness and intimacy that can accompany sex is painful. I get that, believe me. But physically; how much do you really enjoy this? You could get an orgasm masturbating.
> 
> I'm sorry if that is hurtful. But other than a reality check, I would hope this might make you stronger. As in, "I can do without that." Once again, if you end up widowed or divorced, any detachment you develop now, might help you get through, because detachment can be a form of recognizing that you don't have something, so why have feelings of despair or frustration over it?
> 
> I'm only going by what I've read in your posts. So I could be so off-base. I hope your wife succeeds in her weight loss. And I hope you can effectively reason with her, without having to assume a persona that is not you.



If someone doesn't want the gory details in answer the question above, stop reading now.


Some background before I answer so everything is in context. She has never had the sexual demand that I do. When we were first married, 2-3 times a week was our average. But even then, the sex was very generic. I could then, and would like to now, go twice a day, every day, and three times on the weekends.

Her weight came with the kids. After she became pregnant with child one, at about the second trimester, the sex just stopped. It was more than two years before we were sexually active again. 

I tolerated it because we were new parents and it was tough. I did what I could. I did my share of diaper and I took the late night feedings because I can cope without sleep better than she can.

She didn't loose the weight from the first child, and the sex slowly returned to about once a month. Then she became pregnant with child two. Doctors had said she was sterile so we weren't being careful when child one was conceived. But after that, she must have been fertile Myrtle because we had ONE equipment failure, and bang, she was pregnant again. 

This was a difficult pregnancy. She put on a LOT of weight, her blood pressure went through the roof, so high it was endangering the child, so high she was confined to bed, then the hospital as they tried to have her hang on long enough for our second to develop enough that they could take him. 

Finally, they couldn't wait any more and they took our second. He was VERY premature and it was touch and go for a while for both of them. The child was in the hospital for eight weeks as they nurtured him along. 

Now all is well with the second, but once again, my wife didn't loose the weight. Sex has been all but nonexistent since. That was 15 years ago. 

LAST WARNING. IT GETS GRAPHIC FROM HERE!




Now, the sex is not rewarding for me at all. When we are intimate, I will spend 45 minute to an hour in foreplay to bring her to her first peak. This is involves a lot of caressing with finger and lips.

Once she peaks, she begs for me. Moments after insertion, she peaks again. Now, from here, it goes two way. 

I would guess about 40% of the time, were done at this point. Perhaps 50% of the time she will want to continue, and perhaps a minute or so later, she will peak again. The other 10% she will still want to continue, and she will peak again a couple minutes after the last one.

Regardless of how often, the end game is the same. Once she is done, she is DONE. She looses all animation and within moments she begins to dry out. I always stop before it becomes uncomfortable for her.

30 seconds after that, she's sound asleep. You will notice, nowhere in there did I mention that I had been satiated. I thrill in giving her pleasure and I put hers above my own. But it would be nice if I could get there occasionally.

Afterwards we cuddle for a while as she sleeps. At least until I become so overheated (as in temp) that I can not longer spoon with her.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

In other news, I spoke with my wife last night about seeing a marriage councilor. No threats, just explaining why I wanted to go.

She didn't say yes, but she didn't say no either. So there is hope.


Copper


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I understand what you are saying. But... that's just not me. And really, the highly charged emotional person isn't her either. Yes, sometimes she says hurtful things, but most of the time, our discussions are calm and rational and either of us are that upset. We just want to clear the air. You make it sound like people enjoy fighting. Is that even possible?
> 
> She has two sensitive points. Her weight and our sex life. Poking and prodding there tends to be where she gets upset.
> 
> ...


At it's most basic level, it's not about right and wrong. Sure, she's wrong because she knows you have a need that she _can_ meet but doesn't want to. You can try to justify that all you want but that's the fact, she can do it, she just wont.

But really, it's not about right and wrong. It's about compatibility. The two of you are not sexually compatible. If both parties are willing to work at it you can still have a good marriage, with each partner compromising a little bit to meet in the middle. _You cannot have a good marriage if one partner refuses to compromise on a basic matter of compatibility._

You've said you have a good marriage except for this. It's not a good marriage. It may be good enough for you to suck it up and live with it, but it's not a good marriage.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Your situation is simple. You are a very considerate and kind husband. She feels the assurance of your love. You are constant battling down a pound or two and lamenting stoically when there is a setback for a few months or years. With someone as devoted as you, her emotional needs are met. Sex is not so important, after all it your frustrated libido that partially feeds the nice guy.

Women use sex to get love. Men need sex to feel love. This is not absolute but the rough transactional flow follows this pattern. When a woman gets love with a very small investment in sex, she has no incentive to initiate sex if she has a low libido or negative body image. Your wife is not horny enough to seek you for sex.

The solution is to follow the example of neuklas and Bagdon.

1) Stop all the clingy shyte. Do not caress your wife and tell her you love and adore her.

2) Be happy on your own. Fake it till you make it.

3) Work out. Lose weight. Quit smoking if you do.

4) Go from activity to activity with energy and purpose.

5) Stop initiating sexually.

6) Don't get involved in your wife's weight loss battle.

7) Listen to your wife when she talks. Look her in the eye. Think about what she is saying. Do not reply with wordiness. Nod and go about your business. If she has some reasonable need that you can meet, do it. Don't talk about. If she has some unreasonable need, say quietly, "I am sorry but I am not okay with that."

Once you are not a doormat, either your wife will stuff her face even more or she will start to chase you. You must maintain some distance. Do not fall back in the old co-dependent relationship.

Read Bagdon and neuklas


----------



## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

I think the fact that your wife will not go to MC with you speaks volumes. She either thinks that there is nothing wrong with the marriage, or is in deep denial about it.

Sexually, she is not on the same page with you in terms of frequency, and when you are being sexual, she is a selfish lover.

I would begin to plan your future life without her. Start doing the 180 as other posters have suggested. You should begin to shelter your financial assets. Sign the nice cars over to your kids. Set up a trust for them. Start a business (LLC) and invest your own funds into it. There are any number of attorneys who can advise you how to best protect your financial interests in advance of a divorce.

I have a friend who owns a business, and when he divorced, he managed to shelter a majority of his assets. His ex-wife ended up making out pretty well, but she didn't even come close to getting half of everything.

But ultimately, I don't see your relationship improving. Life is too short to be miserable. Begin the process now, and be ready to pull the trigger once all of YOUR ducks are in a row. Be proactive, and take control of your own destiny. You will be much better off in the long run. TAM is overflowing with members who wish they had gotten a divorce sooner than they did because of how happy they ended up afterwards.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Yes, all that upsets me. It makes me angry, but it also makes me sad.
> 
> Below I will describe a specific instant and what I did. If you are willing, I would like to hear how you would have handled it, and why your way is better than mine.


Darlin, repeat after me: Anon Pink is always right and always has a better idea.



I respect MEM far too much to counter his admonishment that you stay true to who you are. I will try to give suggestions on ways you might have dug a little deeper and been a little more authentic and perhaps a little less reasonable. Because we have already established that cold hard logic and reason FEELS closer to apathy than you might expect and apathetic responses will dry out her panties.




> We were preparing for bed and for the first time in a long while, she had signaled her willingness. My phone rings. It's the plant. I have to take the call because I am on call with a ten minute call-back provision. Ignoring the call is not an option as it would result in reprimand and/or possible termination.


What is it with men? Why can't they do two things at once?

You answer the phone and kiss your wife's neck as you listen to the issue. Upon figuring out it will take more than a minute, you ask the guy to hold for a second, you tell your wife NOT to go anywhere and that you will be right back.

Because you didn't do that, she felt abandoned. I'm not saying it was reasonable for a wife. But from the way you've described her, I'm betting she felt abandoned and that why she saw no issue with forgetting about sex for the next 3 months.



> It takes about ten minutes for me to coach the person at the plant through a work-around so they could continue through the night and I didn't have to go in and solve the problem right then.
> 
> When I'm done, wife is in bed, asleep. I know from experience waking her for any reason that doesn't involve escaping bodily fluids or risk of imminent injury is a bad idea.


You wake her up! Yes, you wake her up! She gets irate, you get irate right back! 
She says whatever she says about not being woken.
You say: "you finally consent to sex and because my work calls and I have to talk for 10 stinking minutes I now have to wait another 3 months? I don't think so!"

Why do you make a stink? Because sex is important. Because YOU are important. Because your needs are important. And until you start making that clear to your wife...you won't be.



> I'm annoyed that work had interfered and hurt and annoyed that she couldn't stay awake for five <censored> minutes until I could get off the phone.
> 
> <Censor> it! I would have to go in to work in only a few hours anyway! I bathed, dressed, and left for work.
> 
> ...


So you flirted with her all day thus setting the stage for l'amour later that night, right? And in doing so, you have given the unmistakable notion that what was delayed last night is absolutely on for tonight. This also gave HER a chance to act co,d and indifferent toward you thus warning you that she intended to yank that carpeting out from under you. Thus allowing you to have this much needed conversation about her excuses being pure bullsh!t.

See how these things snowball?



> As we prepare for bed she is more cold and distant than normal. I talk to her, trying to find out what is bothering her, and she finally wants to know where I went the night before.


And here is where you let your anger and frustration be a tad more authentic.

"I went to work! I had hoped to cuddle up to and make love with my wife but she feel asleep on me leaving me out in the cold. How would you feel if I had done something similar to you?"




> This is when I found out she thought I was having an affair. We were behind on a project at work and I had been working longer hours to catch us up. I am shocked into silence. That is the LAST thing I would have guessed was bothering her. I'm not mad, just surprised.
> 
> We talk it around a bit and I show her how I couldn't have been having an affair. I offer proof of my whereabouts (security logs at work from my electronic pass) and point out how I am rarely alone.


Where is your indignation? 

You talk about it? You were supposed to have sex and not only do you NOT have sex but when you get home you are accused of having an affair?

"I wonder why you'd think a man who is married to woman who only wants sex 3 times a year might have an affair?"

Zing, straight to the gut. Can't you hear her spluttering?



> Anyway, she finally thaws and we make up. No sex, but at least we were cuddling. In hindsight, I should have taken my win and called it game done, but I was bothered about her accusing me of having an affair. She had to be deeply unhappy to say something like that, right? I was afraid to ask, but I had to know.
> 
> So I asked her if she wanted out of the marriage. That started another round of accusations and recriminations and this is when she said if I ever left she would try to take me for everything she could.
> 
> ...


ugh, copper you need emergency ball grafting!

Based in what I've already written, how do you think you might have responded instead.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> At it's most basic level, it's not about right and wrong. Sure, she's wrong because she knows you have a need that she _can_ meet but doesn't want to. You can try to justify that all you want but that's the fact, she can do it, she just wont.


I will give you that she could do more than she does.





Nucking Futs said:


> But really, it's not about right and wrong. It's about compatibility. The two of you are not sexually compatible. If both parties are willing to work at it you can still have a good marriage, with each partner compromising a little bit to meet in the middle. _You cannot have a good marriage if one partner refuses to compromise on a basic matter of compatibility._
> 
> You've said you have a good marriage except for this. It's not a good marriage. It may be good enough for you to suck it up and live with it, but it's not a good marriage.


I can't disagree. Our marriage could be better. 

I'm hoping we can actually get into some counseling, and soon. After that? I guess I will see where it goes.


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Exactly!
> Sometimes a woman wants to know her man cares enough to be pissed off! Calm reasoned logical=snooze fest. Show me the passion baby!


If I had not had three daughters, I would still to this day not understand that.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

My wife had avoided sex due to her past for years. When we finally got into counseling, the counselor asked what I wanted out of counseling. I said I wanted wife to talk to counselor about her abuse. Then, I got quite angry towards wife and expressed that we needed to start having more sex, on a regular basis, or the marriage was over. I allowed some of the resentment to show. My wife knew I meant business. We came to an agreement of once a week. Since then, my wife has actually initiated more often. I treat her well, provide well, and make sure to make time for dates, express my love for her, etc. She has really worked hard to turn it around. One site that helped me understand where she was coming from, and there were articles that helped her see how I was feeling was www.theforgivenwife.com Unfortunately, it really did take me giving an ultimatium before it changed.

I also had to work on myself. I lost 41#'s, I lift weights 3 days a week. I wrote her a 1 page letter expressing what my needs are in the marriage, along with how much I love her body. She had body issues. The schedule allows me to express affection for her at times other than when we are intimate, this way she does not feel like I am only saying these things just for sex.

I got some very good advice from Anon Pink, Rayloveshiswife, and others on TAM. I also had both of us do the 5 love languages quiz. I found out what her top languages are & I make sure I speak them often! Work on yourself so she can see what she will be losing.

After typing the first part of this message, I went in the kitchen, kissed my wife & told her " I realize that I pushed you past your level of comfort, and I appreciate all the hard work you have done working on US."


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Your situation is simple. You are a very considerate and kind husband. She feels the assurance of your love. You are constant battling down a pound or two and lamenting stoically when there is a setback for a few months or years. With someone as devoted as you, her emotional needs are met. Sex is not so important, after all it your frustrated libido that partially feeds the nice guy.
> 
> Women use sex to get love. Men need sex to feel love. This is not absolute but the rough transactional flow follows this pattern. When a woman gets love with a very small investment in sex, she has no incentive to initiate sex if she has a low libido or negative body image. Your wife is not horny enough to seek you for sex.
> 
> ...


I'm not clingy, but I do still love her. I'm don't slobber all over her, but I do make it a point to tell her that I love her at least once a day. How depressing this is.





LongWalk said:


> 2) Be happy on your own. Fake it till you make it.


I already am. I wouldn't have made it this long if I weren't happy with most areas of my life.




LongWalk said:


> 3) Work out. Lose weight. Quit smoking if you do.


I already do this, each night. My weight is good. I have never smoked or drank. My paternal grandfather died of a heart attack at something like 47. My father, the same thing at 55. I take care of myself because I am battling genetics here.





LongWalk said:


> 4) Go from activity to activity with energy and purpose.


I do this. Everything I undertake, I do to the best of my ability. 





LongWalk said:


> 5) Stop initiating sexually.


Haven't in almost a year.





LongWalk said:


> 6) Don't get involved in your wife's weight loss battle.


This I am involved in. How can I not be? I'm her coach and try to keep her motivated. Why is this wrong?





LongWalk said:


> 7) Listen to your wife when she talks. Look her in the eye. Think about what she is saying. Do not reply with wordiness. Nod and go about your business. If she has some reasonable need that you can meet, do it. Don't talk about. If she has some unreasonable need, say quietly, "I am sorry but I am not okay with that."


I think this is more or less me. Unless you are saying that I should no longer just talk to her. As I have said elsewhere, my family spends about an hour each evening just talking, catching up on the day. Surely you are not saying this is wrong, are you?





LongWalk said:


> Once you are not a doormat, either your wife will stuff her face even more or she will start to chase you. You must maintain some distance. Do not fall back in the old co-dependent relationship.
> 
> Read Bagdon and neuklas



Everyone keeps saying I'm her doormat. I'm not her doormat! Just because we have this disagreement doesn't make me her doormat. I live my life. I am not at her beck and call. I do those things she asks me to, if I want to and they are reasonable. But if I would resent doing them, I don't. If I want to do something and there isn't a compelling reason why I shouldn't, I do them. 

And guess what? She does the same thing. In most of my requests she is very accommodating. But she doesn't want to have sex with me, so she doesn't. She has her own interests that she pursues and I don't begrudge her those. 

So not getting everything I want, the moment I want them, makes me a doormat? If that is true, than I guess I have take back what I said. I am her doormat. But then I guess I should just stay in this relationship because I will ALWAYS be my partners doormat.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> You make it sound like people enjoy fighting. Is that even possible?


YES. More than one person has specifically told me those exact words. They could not, however, elucidate why exactly that was. I share your confusion.



CopperTop said:


> She has two sensitive points. Her weight and our sex life. Poking and prodding there tends to be where she gets upset.
> 
> To be honest, I don't know HOW to be the person you seem to think I should be. I suppose I could go around, throwing my hands in the air etc, but honestly I think my family would see right through the act.


Act? This is what you're missing. You ARE upset. You try to hide it with her, and perhaps everyone else. So you don't "poke and prod", but that's just subverting your feelings. How is that good? You're choosing to suffer so that you avoid uncomfortable conversations with the person who is complicit in your suffering. 



CopperTop said:


> If she doesn't know by now that I'm not content with our level of intimacy, I just don't see how my being passionate (what ever that means) will convince her.


I guarantee she knows your not happy. It is also clear that she's perfectly fine with you NOT being happy. It is further clear that you place her happiness above your own. THIS is the doormat concept. Not that you take a bunch of crap from her constantly. That her pedestal is so high you can't even see that you're being crapped on.



CopperTop said:


> And the other thing that bothers me is, everyone seems to think I'm 100% right and she is 100% wrong, where it comes to withholding of sex.


Withholding anything that the partner desires, when it is not "out there" or causing harm, in my opinion makes a spouse 100% wrong in that situation. I could choose to ignore tons of requests from my wife, but I wouldn't because I love her and doing things for her brings me joy as well. Are there times you're wrong and she's right? I'm 100% sure of that as well. This isn't one of them.



CopperTop said:


> I'm trying to take into account her wants and needs and not just focus on my own. Is there no compromise? Does it have to be all or nothing?


Again, you get the premise but misapply it. You are making a herculean effort to take into account her wants and *ahem* needs. She isn't AT ALL. No sex in a year? You're roommates. A "compromise" would involve you coming somewhere near the "middle" of the road. 

Hint: If she wants none, and you want it every other day, 3 times a year is NOT "middle of the road".


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Darlin, repeat after me: Anon Pink is always right and always has a better idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was doing two things at once. I was outside with the dog, getting him ready for the night. It's the last thing I do before I turn in for the night. But what normally takes two or three minutes, took ten. 




Anon Pink said:


> You wake her up! Yes, you wake her up! She gets irate, you get irate right back!
> She says whatever she says about not being woken.
> You say: "you finally consent to sex and because my work calls and I have to talk for 10 stinking minutes I now have to wait another 3 months? I don't think so!"
> 
> Why do you make a stink? Because sex is important. Because YOU are important. Because your needs are important. And until you start making that clear to your wife...you won't be.


I just as soon wake a hibernating Grizzly. That's just picking a fight and I would stake my life on no sex for my trouble. 

This is a serious question. Do you ENJOY fighting? 





Anon Pink said:


> So you flirted with her all day thus setting the stage for l'amour later that night, right? And in doing so, you have given the unmistakable notion that what was delayed last night is absolutely on for tonight. This also gave HER a chance to act co,d and indifferent toward you thus warning you that she intended to yank that carpeting out from under you. Thus allowing you to have this much needed conversation about her excuses being pure bullsh!t.
> 
> See how these things snowball?


No. It was a work day, so I hadn't seen or spoken to her from eleven-ish the night before (bedtime) until seven that evening (when I arrived home from work). So I had about a 4 hour window to realize she was upset, discover what was wrong and try to get it corrected. To be clear, she wasn't snarly and throwing things. Just... distant and cool. 




Anon Pink said:


> And here is where you let your anger and frustration be a tad more authentic.
> 
> "I went to work! I had hoped to cuddle up to and make love with my wife but she feel asleep on me leaving me out in the cold. How would you feel if I had done something similar to you?"


But see, I wasn't angry. I had already put the annoyance from the night before behind me, and having her accuse me of an affair didn't make me mad as much as it just surprised me. My first reaction was to laugh because I thought she was yanking on me. Only the look on her face kept me from doing so. 





Anon Pink said:


> Where is your indignation?
> 
> You talk about it? You were supposed to have sex and not only do you NOT have sex but when you get home you are accused of having an affair?
> 
> ...


Yes. Yes I can. I can also hear that little voice that lives inside of us whispering, "Why are you being such an <censored>? She is obviously afraid and rather than comforting her, your being a <censored>."





Anon Pink said:


> ugh, copper you need emergency ball grafting!
> 
> Based in what I've already written, how do you think you might have responded instead.



There are two types of people. 

There people like you, those who write beautiful sonnets and create majestic works of art. Then there are people like me, those who put a person on the moon.

To do as you suggest is as far outside my area of understanding as what I do is outside of yours.

To my eyes, you appear to enjoy conflict. It seems that you would rather fight about a problem than actually solve it. Why all the drama and anguish?

What I got from your reply is I should let my emotions run wild, and if I'm not upset about a particular event, I should pretend to be. Passion without thought is what causes murders. Closer to home, passion without thought is why people say hurtful things they later wish they hadn't.

Another honest question. Have you never said anything in the heat of battle that you later wish you hadn't? If you did say something cruel or untrue, did you apologize for it later? If not, why not?

I'm not trying to be obstinate or combative. I'm trying very hard to understand what you are telling me. So far all I have gotten is that I'm not confrontational or emotional enough. But there has to be more to it than that or those people with spouses that have anger issues would have the best marriages in the world. 


Copper


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I was doing two things at once. I was outside with the dog, getting him ready for the night. It's the last thing I do before I turn in for the night. But what normally takes two or three minutes, took ten.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why are you here? You reject every bit of advice you're given, with what I'm sure you believe are good reasons but are clearly excuses. So what do you hope to get out of this thread? Are you just venting? Should we be just figuratively patting you on the back and saying "there, there" instead of offering advice?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> YES. More than one person has specifically told me those exact words. They could not, however, elucidate why exactly that was. I share your confusion.
> 
> 
> Act? This is what you're missing. You ARE upset. You try to hide it with her, and perhaps everyone else. So you don't "poke and prod", but that's just subverting your feelings. How is that good? You're choosing to suffer so that you avoid uncomfortable conversations with the person who is complicit in your suffering.


Now I've got it. The madder I get, the more I withdraw. That's not to protect anyone, that's just what I do. I don't go hot, I go diamond hard and arctic cold. I don't flash and yell and stomp around. I get up and walk away because I can no longer stand to be in your presence. For that moment, until my anger cools, you are dead to me and as far as I'm concerned you can go <censored> yourself. 




ET1SSJonota said:


> I guarantee she knows your not happy. It is also clear that she's perfectly fine with you NOT being happy. It is further clear that you place her happiness above your own. THIS is the doormat concept. Not that you take a bunch of crap from her constantly. That her pedestal is so high you can't even see that you're being crapped on.


I will give you this, to a degree. Yes, I do place her happiness above mine in many ways. I also place my children's happiness above my own as well. But in both of these cases, only so far. 




ET1SSJonota said:


> Withholding anything that the partner desires, when it is not "out there" or causing harm, in my opinion makes a spouse 100% wrong in that situation. I could choose to ignore tons of requests from my wife, but I wouldn't because I love her and doing things for her brings me joy as well. Are there times you're wrong and she's right? I'm 100% sure of that as well. This isn't one of them.


I understand where you are coming from. I really do. But if she were to up her willingness to have sex, only to resent it each time, isn't that causing harm? And make no mistake, she would resent it. I am fairly certain if I were to throw the ultimatum out there, I would have more sex. I am equally certain she would hate me for it. Then she is doing it by coercion, not by choice. 

I want more sex. But I don't want her resenting me for it. 




ET1SSJonota said:


> Again, you get the premise but misapply it. You are making a herculean effort to take into account her wants and *ahem* needs. She isn't AT ALL. No sex in a year? You're roommates. A "compromise" would involve you coming somewhere near the "middle" of the road.
> 
> Hint: If she wants none, and you want it every other day, 3 times a year is NOT "middle of the road".


I know. And I'm hoping counseling will open her eyes to that fact. I was just lamenting that everyone seems to think she is totally wrong and I am stating that she sees her desire for no sex as strongly as I see my desire for sex. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Why are you here? You reject every bit of advice you're given, with what I'm sure you believe are good reasons but are clearly excuses. So what do you hope to get out of this thread? Are you just venting? Should we be just figuratively patting you on the back and saying "there, there" instead of offering advice?



I came here, originally, to try to come to grips with my disappointment. Then I realized that I had given up on trying to improve my marriage.

Now I am just discussing. If I present her with divorce papers, I might as well just go ahead, pack my stuff, and move out. If the marriage isn't dead already, that will kill it. She would never, ever, trust me again. If the reverse were to happen, if she were to present them to me with demands, she can just go ahead and leave. I will not be coerced, nor would I ever trust her to stick with me again. Can their be love without trust? Personally, I don't think so.

Since I'm not entirely ready to throw this marriage away, I reject that option. In the discussion, I have picked up a couple of ideas. I will try them. Others, I'm still trying to understand.

But the present her with papers option is off the table. If that is my only route, then you're right. I might as well delete my account because I would have no further use for this board. I would no longer be married.

If I am annoying everyone, I can leave. I appreciate the advice everyone has given but I've never been the type to push myself on someone if I'm not wanted.


Copper


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You are slowly coming round.

When folks advise you not to be a doormat that does not mean you are supposed to throw a hissy fit and yell at your wife or say mean shyte. Just the opposite.

Let me repeat:

Stop telling her you love her. If she tells you that she loves you, just smile and look her in the eye and then go back to what you were doing. Every time you tell her you love her, despite only getting laid three times a year, she can stay in her snail shell of blubber.

Becoming the leader in your relationship means ditching the failed mode of your relationship. Right now you have a failed marriage. She is eating herself to death while you are sexually frustrated to distraction.

Distance yourself from her. The 180 is for divorce but it can also induce a wake up call. You cannot use the 180 over and over. It works once in general.

Stop rationalizing how being nice will fix things. But if you hate to give up being nice, then redefine it so that you can execute a tough love plan.

Everyone here advising you is saying roughly the same thing. Go through the posts again and summarize the main points in your own words. Make the words yours internalize them. That will allow you to act.

Remember once your wife realizes you are a different guy, a not so nice guy but a guy who has found self respect. She will be turned on or she will eat more. Her choice. You cannot be her. You cannot respect her dysfunction for an eternity.

The spouse of an alcoholic must say "No, I will quit. Either you quit drinking or we are done."

Can your wife have a relapse? Sure. Can you forgive her? Sure. But she has to try. 

Imagine yourself as a masculine version of yourself and act out that persona. Make that persona you. It is inside.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

What does C2 do for YOU to show love.




CopperTop said:


> I'm not clingy, but I do still love her. I'm don't slobber all over her, but I do make it a point to tell her that I love her at least once a day. How depressing this is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> If I present her with divorce papers, I might as well just go ahead, pack my stuff, and move out. If the marriage isn't dead already, that will kill it. She would never, ever, trust me again.


Dawg there is only one way to say it. If she didn't trust you again I don't know how that would make it worse than you have it now. What's she going to do, cut off the sex and treat you like you no longer matter?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> You are slowly coming round.


I'm trying. But some of this stuff I just don't understand.





LongWalk said:


> When folks advise you not to be a doormat that does not mean you are supposed to throw a hissy fit and yell at your wife or say mean shyte. Just the opposite.
> 
> Let me repeat:
> 
> Stop telling her you love her. If she tells you that she loves you, just smile and look her in the eye and then go back to what you were doing. Every time you tell her you love her, despite only getting laid three times a year, she can stay in her snail shell of blubber.


This is a straight forward, easy to understand, bit of advice. I get it. But it feels so _wrong._ I don't understand _why_ I would want to do this. 

It seems to me it would only drive her farther away. After all, why would she care about me if I no longer care about her? If she no longer cared about me, I certainly wouldn't care over much about her. Then I would have nothing. She would be nothing more than another female friend.

If I stop saying I love you, and she feels like I no longer care for her, and does the same, then it doesn't get said. If it doesn't get said, we begin to drift apart, and soon, there is nothing holding together. The thing keeping us together now is our love and respect for each other. It certainly isn't for the exceptional sex.

This seems like the first step into the long slide to divorce.





LongWalk said:


> Becoming the leader in your relationship means ditching the failed mode of your relationship. Right now you have a failed marriage. She is eating herself to death while you are sexually frustrated to distraction.
> 
> Distance yourself from her. The 180 is for divorce but it can also induce a wake up call. You cannot use the 180 over and over. It works once in general.
> 
> ...


I object. I do respect myself. I think she respects me as well, though I can't see into her heart and know for sure. This is the No More Mister Nice Guy thing. 

I do lead in our relationship. Do you think she would advocate counseling? No. But I am. Has she taken the lead in improving our sex lives. No. But I have. Did she do something about her weight? No. But I coached her into starting. 

I have always lead. But leading is not the same as succeeding. She has to want to work on it too, and there have been times in the past when she didn't. Now, she seems more willing. Is it because I stopped initiating sex with her? Maybe. But through all of that, I made sure she knew I still cared and wanted to be with her.





LongWalk said:


> The spouse of an alcoholic must say "No, I will quit. Either you quit drinking or we are done."
> 
> Can your wife have a relapse? Sure. Can you forgive her? Sure. But she has to try.
> 
> Imagine yourself as a masculine version of yourself and act out that persona. Make that persona you. It is inside.


I don't get this last bit. Masculine version? What does that mean? I know you are not talking about my gentlemen sausage, and I know you are referring to my attitude and demeanor. I don't understand, specifically, what it is that I'm doing wrong that is making me effeminate.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Dawg there is only one way to say it. If she didn't trust you again I don't know how that would make it worse than you have it now. What's she going to do, cut off the sex and treat you like you no longer matter?


In effect, yes. 

Now we do things together. Now I have someone waiting for me when I get home with a smile and a kiss. Now I have someone that I enjoy talking to, and trust, and can discuss things with, things that can tell no one else. She lifts me up when I am feeling down. She takes some of the weight when the world becomes too heavy for me to carry alone. 

I have everything that guys have in a good marriage have, except sex. If I didn't have these things, we wouldn't be talking about this now because I would have been gone long ago.

I could loose all that, and my hurt my children as well, because now I'm the bad guy, the guy that is willing to give up his family for some <censored>.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> What does C2 do for YOU to show love.



She listens to me when I'm afraid. She offers constructive advice and will hold me until I get my feet under me again.

When the world is pressing in on me, and I don't know where to turn, she is there, willing to do anything she can to help me. 

She meets me at the door (metaphorically speaking) with a smile, a kiss and a hug. 

She does all that I ask (with a couple of exceptions and within reason) willingly and without complaint. 

She allows me enjoy my hobbies without complaint even when she doesn't understand or necessarily approve (cars).

SHE MAKES ME FEEL IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY AND WANTED!


Copper


p.s. I know the hug and a kiss thing will seem like a contraindication to the "stop groping me." But a few months after I stopped pressuring her for sex, this has improved immensely. I may even go back to stroking her butt as I walk by just to see what happens. 

In fact, I think I will, the next time I walk past her.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I don't mean you are effeminate. Every person is an actor. We all act in certain roles. Sometimes we decline parts that we no longer have confidence in. If you are not getting laid, that has got to hurt your masculine self image. So, you should reconstruct that you, a particular part that you want to play but casting doesn't call you for, you need to act it as if you are it.

The problem is that your wife has been kicking you and keeping you down so long that you think you leading. But you are not leading. By definition you are only following for if you were leading, going into the bedroom for sex would ba a natural event.

When you wife senses change within you, she will have to change.

Read neuklas

Read Bagdon


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I have just had a realization. Something I hadn't caught onto until just now.

Since I am no longer trying to entice her into having sex, a lot has changed. She's changed. 

She has started working on her weight. 

She is more, dare I say, loving. We kiss more now. Not just the hello and goodbye kisses from before, but more often. They are still not wet slobbery kisses, but they _are_ kisses.

She will step up to me and allow me to hold her.

We are laughing more. We are fighting less. Much less.

It happened slowly, over the last year. I knew things were improving, but it took a question, here, in this thread, before I realized what had actually happened. 

My marriage may be on he mend... and I didn't even notice. That makes me quite happy, but so very sad. How could something like this, something this important, happen and I not even notice?

Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Before you read anyone's miracle thread, you need to understand what you're dealing with. 

At work we often use the 5 why method. Look it up.

It's one thing to drag her into MC without an understanding of what's going on and quite another to show up with a laundry list of things to work on.

Once you know what you're dealing with you generally know if it's fixable or not.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The proof in pudding time is when you're going to have sex again, how the SLA will work out. If she sticks to A B C sex or sex of the month club that's not much of an improvement in the grand scheme of things...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> At work we often use the 5 why method. Look it up.



No need. We use this too.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> I don't mean you are effeminate. Every person is an actor. We all act in certain roles. Sometimes we decline parts that we no longer have confidence in. If you are not getting laid, that has got to hurt your masculine self image. So, you should reconstruct that you, a particular part that you want to play but casting doesn't call you for, you need to act it as if you are it.


Maybe. I don't feel any less masculine. I feel like jumping every woman that walks by. That's part of what started all of this. I didn't like the person I was becoming.

Not quite sure what to do about if you are right though.





LongWalk said:


> The problem is that your wife has been kicking you and keeping you down so long that you think you leading. But you are not leading. By definition you are only following for if you were leading, going into the bedroom for sex would be a natural event.


Got to find a willing partner first.





LongWalk said:


> When you wife senses change within you, she will have to change.
> 
> Read neuklas
> 
> Read Bagdon



I'll check them out. Thanks.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

A question with enough time for someone to answer.

I have been given some conflicting advice. Some have said, pull back, don't pursue, etc. 

Other have said, make your demands and be prepared to walk if she doesn't meet them.

I have followed the first bit of advice unintentionally. It has now been around a year since we were last intimate... February 2014... my birthday. 

Things have improved in the last year. I am trying to get us into counseling and there are signs she might agree this time. I don't want to do anything that will jeopardize the progress that has been made. 

The question is... should I try to initiate tonight after we turn in for the night? Not threaten, but just try to seduce her, show her that I still want her. Or should I not risk the current progress until I get us into counseling?

I know what I want to do, but not at the cost of progress. I've waited this long. Another few weeks or months isn't going to make that much difference.

If there are no answers, I will assume I should stay true and do nothing.


Copper


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Now, the sex is not rewarding for me at all. When we are intimate, I will spend 45 minute to an hour in foreplay to bring her to her first peak. This is involves a lot of caressing with finger and lips.
> 
> Once she peaks, she begs for me. Moments after insertion, she peaks again. Now, from here, it goes two way.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I noticed you didn't get an orgasm.

You go into the bathroom and finish off after she falls asleep?

Why do you even "miss" doing this. Fingering your wife to orgasm is great. But if she doesn't give you a handjob in return; that's crazy.

Manual sex would be a staple when one person is very obese.

Sorry, Copper. I'm the last person in the world to recommend using porn, but I could sympathize with you doing so.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Yeah, I noticed you didn't get an orgasm.
> 
> You go into the bathroom and finish off after she falls asleep?


No. I lie there and wonder how it might be different. I think about all the things I would like to do, but don't have the opportunity. I don't sleep and I think as my mind runs in ever tighter circles until I have to go to work the next day. 

Then I am distracted and by the time I return home, I'm better, past being upset, and resigned to my fate. 





intheory said:


> Why do you even "miss" doing this. Fingering your wife to orgasm is great. But if she doesn't give you a handjob in return; that's crazy.


What I miss most is the closeness I feel for her. On the rare occasion when the stars align and everything goes as it should, and there is no disappointment and frustration, I feel so profoundly close to her. 

Won't happen. Oral sex, masturbation, different positions... only <rhymes with bores>, <rhymes with huts> and porn stars do those things. Her words, not mine. If I can get her into counseling with me, and if we can get past this no sex problem, this will be the next problem to attack. One problem at a time.

I guess it's a good thing that the missionary position is my favorite, huh? 





intheory said:


> Manual sex would be a staple when one person is very obese.
> 
> Sorry, Copper. I'm the last person in the world to recommend using porn, but I could sympathize with you doing so.


Thank you. I don't. The last thing I want to do is get caught doing that and add to my problems. We have a very open household. We don't close and lock doors. If I were to do that for some... private time... that would raise questions.


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would not go for it right now - I would rather talk it thru first. Try to get a better idea for what's going on in her head. 

You need to explain to her what she means to you and what you would like the relationship to look down the road from all angles, mental, emotional, and physical. Once you have buy in then you can try to expand the physical part of the relationship.

While she talks try to maintain physical contact but not push it. She needs to feel safe. If that does not work then you mark your chart and take plan B.

Self confidence is key.


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> ... resigned to my fate.
> 
> Won't happen. Oral sex, masturbation, different positions... only <rhymes with bores>, <rhymes with huts> and porn stars do those things.
> ...I don't. The last thing I want to do is get caught doing that and add to my problems. We have a very open household. We don't close and lock doors. If I were to do that for some... private time... that would raise questions.
> ...


The more I read about your situation, the more astronomically unrealistic it sounds. You're saying that not only do you only have sex 2-3 times per year, but that even if she does happen to "allow it", you don't even get to have an orgasm? So you have been celibate, effectively, for how long?(you can "read" this, but I'm literally sputtering here. W.T.F.)

You want to jump every other woman out there because that's NATURAL and how things should be. You SHOULD be able to turn that attention towards your wife, but you've been beaten out of it. (more sputtering)

Specifically to your question: should you initiate? YES. YES. One more time, YES. Every time you are interested, no matter the situation: isolate, escalate, initiate. If she refuses, that's on HER, but she is your wife, and you are a MAN, and those are your desires. She doesn't have to DO anything she doesn't want to, you're right, but she literally cannot MAKE you have no desire. 

If she has a blow-up about it, calmly tell her that she is your wife, you find her attractive, you have sexual desire for her, and you refuse not to at least try to act on it. That that desire in no way contradicts your love for her, but in fact expresses it in the most primal way available. Further, that her constant rejection of that love makes YOU feel unloved.

Maybe you need some female friends, so that you can see exactly what makes up your "marriage" - and how little difference there is between your wife, and a good female friend. Hell, to be 100% honest, if you were single, you'd probably have MORE and certainly MUCH MORE satisfying sex with a good female friend than you do with your wife.


----------



## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> The more I read about your situation, the more astronomically unrealistic it sounds. You're saying that not only do you only have sex 2-3 times per year, but that even if she does happen to "allow it", you don't even get to have an orgasm? So you have been celibate, effectively, for how long?(you can "read" this, but I'm literally sputtering here. W.T.F.)
> 
> You want to jump every other woman out there because that's NATURAL and how things should be. You SHOULD be able to turn that attention towards your wife, but you've been beaten out of it. (more sputtering)
> 
> ...




I especially like the last paragraph. This where I'm at with my "wife".
Pretty much just friends, no intimacy, sex, or affection.
She seems just fine with it, my daughter, OTOH, is seeing it and hates it.
I've fallen into the camp of "he who expects nothing, shall not be deceived". Now, I also believe that when someone feels appreciated, they'll do more than is expected.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> The more I read about your situation, the more astronomically unrealistic it sounds. You're saying that not only do you only have sex 2-3 times per year, but that even if she does happen to "allow it", you don't even get to have an orgasm? So you have been celibate, effectively, for how long?(you can "read" this, but I'm literally sputtering here. W.T.F.)


About a year at his point. 

I could, and would, have an orgasm, if she could last long enough. But intercourse lasts anywhere from maybe 30 seconds to five minutes. I just can't get there that fast, not starting cold. 

Unless a woman can will herself into drying out, she can't help it. Since she has some hangups, that kind of leaves me stuck.





ET1SSJonota said:


> You want to jump every other woman out there because that's NATURAL and how things should be. You SHOULD be able to turn that attention towards your wife, but you've been beaten out of it. (more sputtering)
> 
> Specifically to your question: should you initiate? YES. YES. One more time, YES. Every time you are interested, no matter the situation: isolate, escalate, initiate. If she refuses, that's on HER, but she is your wife, and you are a MAN, and those are your desires. She doesn't have to DO anything she doesn't want to, you're right, but she literally cannot MAKE you have no desire.
> 
> ...


I have some female friends. Probably my best friend is a woman. I don't look at them in the same way I do my wife. They are off limits because they are all married. 

But I do understand what you are saying. I'm hoping counseling will help. 


Copper


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> About a year at his point.
> 
> I could, and would, have an orgasm, if she could last long enough. But intercourse lasts anywhere from maybe 30 seconds to five minutes. I just can't get there that fast, not starting cold.
> 
> ...


Wow. I am sputtering too...

This is so incredibly selfish on her part it makes me very mad to read about it. Why isn't she beside herself with upset and completely focused on how to solve this problem??

If she won't get you off with her mouth or hand afterwards due to her hangups!....then why have you guys not been using LUBE? 

This is such a one sided sexual experience.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Wow. I am sputtering too...
> 
> This is so incredibly selfish on her part it makes me very mad to read about it. Why isn't she beside herself with upset and completely focused on how to solve this problem??
> 
> ...



Tried that once. She didn't like it. Won't use it again.


Copper


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Tried that once. She didn't like it. Won't use it again.
> 
> 
> Copper


I'm not surprised that she says she doesn't like it. It might make sex actually enjoyable for you. She is purposing trying to make any sexual encounter as miserable as possible so you will just go away and leave her alone.

What was reason she said she didn't like it?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm not surprised that she says she doesn't like it. It might make sex actually enjoyable for you. She is purposing trying to make any sexual encounter as miserable as possible so you will just go away and leave her alone.
> 
> What was reason she said she didn't like it?



For the last year I have left her alone. I told her that when she decided she wanted me, she knew where I was. Surprisingly, things have improved in every area except for our intimacy. I guess because she no longer feels like I am pressuring her for sex.

As far as for the lubricant question, that was some time back that we tried it and I'm not exactly sure anymore. Seems like she didn't like the cleanup, or maybe it was hard to clean up. Something like that.


Copper


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Zouz said:


> Anon ,
> 
> You will notice it with every selfish spouse , both genders ; because in my dictionary continuous sex deprivation for years is much more than physical abuse ;and those creatures don't seek help , the even refuse any help ;* they don't appear on TAM ; do they ?*:scratchhead:
> 
> *Have you ever seen a spouse saying , hi , I'm selfish I am denying my spouse sex every night ?!*.


We've had a few women come here. Some are losing their marriage and want to stop it so they try to change. Others have an uptick in drive that coincides with Peri-menopause and realize what they've been missing out on. If you PROMISE not to attack them I can point out a few threads.

We've only had a single guy on here that I can recall. He had major hangups on seeing his wife as a mother and someone sexual at the same time. He joined up after he was already receiving therapy. His wife was in the process of divorcing him and they save their marriage.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Tried that once. She didn't like it. Won't use it again.
> 
> 
> Copper


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Still love this cold, heartless ***** eh?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

anonmd said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Still love this cold, heartless ***** eh?



Yes. Strange isn't it? And though most probably won't believe it, I truly think she loves me too... at least in her own way.

If I didn't love her, knowing what to do would be so much easier. 


Copper


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> For the last year I have left her alone. I told her that when she decided she wanted me, she knew where I was. Surprisingly, things have improved in every area except for our intimacy. I guess because she no longer feels like I am pressuring her for sex.
> 
> As far as for the lubricant question, that was some time back that we tried it and I'm not exactly sure anymore. Seems like she didn't like the cleanup, or maybe it was hard to clean up. Something like that.
> 
> ...


Sad when you are in a bad situation isn't it? You miss the actual truth because you want to believe the lies. The pressure is gone and now she is improving in other areas. Of course she is imroving, the threat of sex is gone. You have been molded to believe your sexual desire is wrong. So, you believe the change in you is bad and her change is good. No, sexual desire is not wrong. The fact you actually want to have an orgasm is normal. What's strange is you accepting blame for your wife's selfishness or misgivings concerning sex.

That and the self blame is what has people trotting out the doormat designation.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Tried that once. She didn't like it. Won't use it again.
> 
> 
> Copper


Try coconut oil instead. Nowhere near as messy and works much better. Smells good too.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sad when you are in a bad situation isn't it? You miss the actual truth because you want to believe the lies. The pressure is gone and now she is improving in other areas. Of course she is imroving, the threat of sex is gone. You have been molded to believe your sexual desire is wrong.


No. My sexual desire is not wrong. She _is_ improving in other areas. She is attacking her weight problem. First time in two or three years. 

She is allowing me to hold her now where before she saw it as just another attempt of mine to coerce her into having sex. We kiss more often now, not just at hello and goodbye, and she will even step up to me and offer to kiss me again. 




phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, you believe the change in you is bad and her change is good.


I haven't changed. Not really. But I have stopped trying pressure her into having sex. I stopped hounding her out of frustration and anger. Then it became a habit. I didn't realize how apathetic I had actually become until I posted here. 

But on the other hand, her improvements are actually improvements. 




phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, sexual desire is not wrong. The fact you actually want to have an orgasm is normal. What's strange is you accepting blame for your wife's selfishness or misgivings concerning sex.


These are _her_ issues, not mine. Because I acknowledge something is a problem is not the same as accepting blame. I didn't cause her to become like this. I just haven't found the key, if there is one, to help her deal with her problem(s).




phillybeffandswiss said:


> That and the self blame is what has people trotting out the doormat designation.


If because I am sticking it out, trying to work through the problems with her and being patient makes me a doormat, then I guess I can accept the designation. 

But if at some point I need some help getting my fecal matter together, I hope she would be willing to become a doormat for me.


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Oh, and go ahead and tease her, but maybe hold back on giving her the first O until you've had your chance.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Try coconut oil instead. Nowhere near as messy and works much better. Smells good too.



Okay. Thanks. I'll look into it.

I suppose I can look it up, but is this a cooking product or would I find it in the pharmacy area? Or is there a difference?


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Okay. Thanks. I'll look into it.
> 
> I suppose I can look it up, but is this a cooking product or would I find it in the pharmacy area? Or is there a difference?
> 
> ...


You can find it most any grocery store these days, I think. A health food store for sure. And yes, it's also used for cooking --has a high smoke point, so is very good for that too.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> You can find it most any grocery store these days, I think. A health food store for sure. And yes, it's also used for cooking --has a high smoke point, so is very good for that too.


Since she loves coconut, maybe I will smear it on me and see where that goes. 


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I have some female friends. Probably my best friend is a woman. I don't look at them in the same way I do my wife. They are off limits because they are all married. Copper


I think you should talk to your lady friends about the problems and ask them for advise. Tell them about how much time you take to please her and how after she's pleased how she just runs you off and goes to sleep. See if they can give some advise from a woman's perspective.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> I think you should talk to your lady friends about the problems and ask them for advise. Tell them about how much time you take to please her and how after she's pleased how she just runs you off and goes to sleep. See if they can give some advise from a woman's perspective.


I don't think this is such a good idea for this is how many EAs and PAs start.

Its probably better that he contact a counselor and ask for advise instead.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> I think you should talk to your lady friends about the problems and ask them for advise. Tell them about how much time you take to please her and how after she's pleased how she just runs you off and goes to sleep. See if they can give some advise from a woman's perspective.





Dogbert said:


> I don't think this is such a good idea for this is how many EAs and PAs start.
> 
> Its probably better that he contact a counselor and ask for advise instead.


I suppose I could do that. I'm not sure how much help that would be. I get the feeling the going to sleep isn't an avoidance thing but is something she can't help.

The person I would ask is happily married, so no fear of an affair. But I think anything Mrs. Copper hears herself, from a professional, would be better.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

You may be surprised how much help the girls could be is they knew the details. If all your effort is unknowingly misapplied, another woman may get you back on the right track. Advice from the "trenches" is ofter better than what you'd get from a shrink, especially a male shrink.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> You may be surprised how much help the girls could be is they knew the details. If all your effort is unknowingly misapplied, another woman may get you back on the right track. Advice from the "trenches" is ofter better than what you'd get from a shrink, especially a male shrink.


Unless he lets slip where he got the advice, and gets to endure another round of suggestion concerning his potential infidelity. I agree he should stick to professionals.

Having endured all that you have so far, Copper Top, I'm thinking you perhaps need some individual counseling as well.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Unless he lets slip where he got the advice, and gets to endure another round of suggestion concerning his potential infidelity. I agree he should stick to professionals.
> 
> Having endured all that you have so far, Copper Top, I'm thinking you perhaps need some individual counseling as well.


Don't take this as me being defensive. I'm curious.

Why do you think I need might need counseling?


Copper


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Try coconut oil instead. Nowhere near as messy and works much better. Smells good too.





CopperTop said:


> Okay. Thanks. I'll look into it.
> 
> I suppose I can look it up, but is this a cooking product or would I find it in the pharmacy area? Or is there a difference?
> 
> ...


Copper, 

Dear Hubby and I are past the menopause years (mid-50's) and we use coconut oil almost exclusively, for several reasons:
a) There is no oil slick "afterward"--no cleanup is really necessary. It naturally absorbs into the skin like a good lotion would. 
b) The lubrication allows for some natural "friction" without that oil slick feeling. So all parts move easier but it doesn't feel like you're slip sliding away! LOL
c) You can use coconut oil on any part of your body--for example, as hand lotion or any dry skin areas, even your lips. I use it instead of chapstick! With no oily feeling, it's like just adding moisture to dryness and that's it. 

Coconut oil can be found in almost any grocery store. Go to the area where you'd buy olive oil or vegetable oil and look around. We buy two 16 oz. jars: one for the kitchen and cooking and one for the bedroom and personal lotion. It does not really have a flavor, certainly not a "coconut" flavor, and it doesn't really have too much of a scent but if anything it smells tasty kind of like butter. YUM! In the kitchen we use it in a fry pan first (then add a little butter or olive oil "for flavor") or to grease a cookie sheet or cake pan.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Don't take this as me being defensive. I'm curious.
> 
> Why do you think I need might need counseling?
> 
> ...


I'll preface my comments with I am not a licensed mental health professional (I'm AM a licensed SRO at a nuke plant though...), and, uh, my sister actual IS a counselor (which means nothing).

Granting that your situation is provided to us through your eyes only, the situation you have been placed in over the years, and the level to which you have accepted subjugation of your wants and desires is NOT normal. While you are hardly alone in your sexless marriage situation, you are among the significant minority of even those poor souls in your frequency, and perhaps worse of than most of even those in that you are "allowed" infrequently but then not allowed to complete. 

I don't intend this to be a putdown, but I pity your situation. In a normal, healthy relationship your efforts, patience, and emotional strength should be rewarded by your partner. In YOUR relationship, they are the ties that are used to bind you. You, sir, have been and still are being abused. That you cannot and do not see it this way leads me to believe that someone professional might be able to more accurately provide you with the insight to see it for yourself. 

There's nothing "wrong" with needing counseling. Lord knows I've had my own experiences there (and they HAVE helped me). 

You SHOULD be pissed. As alluded to before, everything that your wife "gives you" in love, while important, hardly makes up the wholeness of the bond that a sexually satisfying relationship is. You sir, have a pleasant roommate that "allows" you to get her off a few times a year. The lack of interest in providing your happy ending should be YET ANOTHER (not just one) sign of her complete lack of caring about your desires. Frankly, that's just COLD. 

Personally, I think you SHOULD be masturbating. There are actual some medical studies out there with side effects for lack of ejaculation. This should be done not in an "in your face" manner but in no way hiding it from your wife. If she doesn't want you seeking in that manner, she can choose to help you out herself. 

Also, You didn't really address my comments about her weight and your actions. I'd like to know your thoughts there. I understand that she is taking action at this point, but you have also said she has done this in the past and bounced right back. What are you going to change about your reaction to her "bounce back" this time?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> No. My sexual desire is not wrong. She _is_ improving in other areas. She is attacking her weight problem. First time in two or three years.
> 
> She is allowing me to hold her now where before she saw it as just another attempt of mine to coerce her into having sex. We kiss more often now, not just at hello and goodbye, and she will even step up to me and offer to kiss me again.
> 
> ...


I decided not to break this down. 
When people address your wife's shortcomings, I do find your defensiveness interesting. I never said anything about leaving or not working on your marriage. I'm addressing your self blame and excuse making for your wife, which may cause some to call you a doormat.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Copper,
> 
> Dear Hubby and I are past the menopause years (mid-50's) and we use coconut oil almost exclusively, for several reasons:
> a) There is no oil slick "afterward"--no cleanup is really necessary. It naturally absorbs into the skin like a good lotion would.
> ...


Too bad the stores are closed! It sounds like a wonder product.

I will certainly pick some of this up. 

Thank you for the advice.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I'll preface my comments with I am not a licensed mental health professional (I'm AM a licensed SRO at a nuke plant though...), and, uh, my sister actual IS a counselor (which means nothing).
> 
> Granting that your situation is provided to us through your eyes only, the situation you have been placed in over the years, and the level to which you have accepted subjugation of your wants and desires is NOT normal. While you are hardly alone in your sexless marriage situation, you are among the significant minority of even those poor souls in your frequency, and perhaps worse of than most of even those in that you are "allowed" infrequently but then not allowed to complete.
> 
> ...


Okay. I see your point. If I thought she was doing this to me on purpose, to be cruel or to punish me, then I would be a lot more upset and I would have left already. But I really don't think she is. 

The end result may be the same, but the intent is different. It makes me sad more than mad. I guess the best way I can explain it is that I would feel like this if she had, say a back condition or something, that prevented her from having sex. 

Maybe that is blinders I have put on. I'm don't think so, but I won't discount that possibility. Perhaps, if the marriage counselor thing happens I can use that to find out where I stand and what I should do.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Personally, I think you SHOULD be masturbating. There are actual some medical studies out there with side effects for lack of ejaculation. This should be done not in an "in your face" manner but in no way hiding it from your wife. If she doesn't want you seeking in that manner, she can choose to help you out herself.
> 
> Also, You didn't really address my comments about her weight and your actions. I'd like to know your thoughts there. I understand that she is taking action at this point, but you have also said she has done this in the past and bounced right back. What are you going to change about your reaction to her "bounce back" this time?


I didn't ignore you on purpose. I must have missed it. Can you give it to me again and I will address your comment.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I decided not to break this down.
> When people address your wife's shortcomings, I do find your defensiveness interesting. I never said anything about leaving or not working on your marriage. I'm addressing your self blame and excuse making for your wife, which may cause some to call you a doormat.


I'm not sure what self blame. Can you give me an example, please? I can either explain what I meant or correct a misconception, because I don't feel like I am blaming myself for things I shouldn't. Or perhaps, you will point it out, tell me why I shouldn't be blaming myself, and I will accept it.

As far as defending my wife. I feel like everyone thinks she is being cruel and selfish on purpose, and I just don't feel that way. Call it a vibe I get from her.

I want my situation to change, but I also want to make sure I am attacking the right problem and not making this mess even worse.


Copper


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Does she know that you're not having an orgasm? I guess, it's possible she doesn't know.

I mean, if she knows and is just going on her merry way, then she's being cruel.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> Does she know that you're not having an orgasm? I guess, it's possible she doesn't know.
> 
> I mean, if she knows and is just going on her merry way, then she's being cruel.


She knows. 

But she can't help she dries out and <he puts on his flame proof underwear> I tell her it's okay. I know about her hang ups so I know we're done. But I have learned the error of my ways by telling her it's okay (Thanks MEM!) and I won't do that again. 

But I also want to add that she sometimes gets upset to the point of tears that I don't finish. And she usually whispers some kind of apology before she goes to sleep. She seems so sad. You can see it her face. 


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> .... If I thought she was doing this to me on purpose, to be cruel or to punish me, then I would be a lot more upset and I would have left already. But I really don't think she is. The end result may be the same, but the intent is different. It makes me sad more than mad. I guess the best way I can explain it is that I would feel like this if she had, say a back condition or something, that prevented her from having sex.


This is the disconnect that we're all talking about, some using different language, but all basically noting it is a problem. You yourself KNOW this is a problem, but you keep minimizing her contributions to it. 

She knows you want sex. She "allows" it infrequently, and even then you don't get off. In what logical (or HELL ILLOGICAL) mind would that NOT be tied to doing it intentionally? She "accidentally" forgot to get you yours? She "can't" stay awake and help you out (as great as you may be - she CAN unless she's narcoleptic)? The answer is clear to everyone - "intentionally" cruel or punishment perhaps not - but mean spirited and willful. ABSOLUTELY. Make no mistake that she fully comprehends your desires, and has absolutely not a single inkling to do literally lift a finger (ok - a "hand") about it. 

Meanwhile, YOU are willing to celibate yourself in order to avoid the fights. You subjugate, in effect, your manhood to her "want to have less sex". You are not in a marriage, a partnership, between equals. Of course she's nice to you - she gets everything she wants, and you get - what exactly? A pleasant roommate? 



CopperTop said:


> I didn't ignore you on purpose. I must have missed it. Can you give it to me again and I will address your comment.
> 
> Copper


This:


ET1SSJonota said:


> …
> PS - I'm honestly also having a hard time not tying the sex and her weight issues together. You say her weight issues have been going on for a long time, and you've basically kept the same tactic on it. Maybe it's time for a change. Maybe you should tell her that you love her too much to see her kill herself. 3-5 years? That sounds DRASTIC. Maybe YOU need to be drastic. For her, and yourself. A separation might be the best thing ever for her health - no CopperTop to lean on and keep her going might be the spark she needs to finally drop the weight, and in doing so save her life.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She knows.
> 
> But she can't help she dries out and <he puts on his flame proof underwear> I tell her it's okay. I know about her hang ups so I know we're done. But I have learned the error of my ways by telling her it's okay (Thanks MEM!) and I won't do that again.
> 
> ...


I am not buying this, and I feel sad for you that you have. Do you know how many couples HAVE to use lube?! She tried it once and didn't LIKE it. It's lube! She didn't like lube so it's okay for you to go without sexual completion? That is not her being sad about the situation. If she was sad she would be trying every brand of lube they sell to find one she can "deal" with!


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> She knows.
> 
> But she can't help she dries out and <he puts on his flame proof underwear> I tell her it's okay. I know about her hang ups so I know we're done. But I have learned the error of my ways by telling her it's okay (Thanks MEM!) and I won't do that again.
> 
> ...


Seriously dude. W.T.F.

She's so upset she's crying, but she's going to sleep? Does that ring true to you, at all? Honestly? 

Do you have some horrible disfigurement that you don't think you can find or deserve someone who will treat you right? Even if you DO - you're WRONG.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm sorry I can't remember if this has been posted. If she has hangups about sex, have you considered going to a sex therapist?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> But I also want to add....


You do realise you are constantly excusing, rationalising and tolerating all that is wrong?

You get what you choose.

Does misery love company?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> You do realise you are constantly excusing, rationalising and tolerating all that is wrong?


Yes, he does realize, because he actively moves the goal posts when comments become uncomfortable.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Unless he lets slip where he got the advice, and gets to endure another round of suggestion concerning his potential infidelity. I agree he should stick to professionals.


I agree this old boy would likely drop the ball. It'd be really interesting to know the reaction from his lady friends when he reiterates his problem and the extent he claims to go to please her.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You should be masturbating daily, with the door open. If it upsets her, good. If you have sex and she cuts you off without finishing, finish yourself right then and there. If she complains, good. You need to get comfortable with her being out of her comfort zone. She needs that from you.

The thing is, the fact you've been able to go without for so long means you have a very low sex drive. While she's probably a zero or one, you're only a 2 or 3. Enough to complain a bit, but not enough to actually do anything about it.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I know old Copper been given a lot of good advice, but we all know even if he was willing to take the bull by the horns, ain't no way he's every going to turn this girl into a one that hot for his body. She's an iceburg and that's all she's ever going to be. Since he ain't going nowhere, the way I see it he has three choices. 1. settle for widow thumb and her four daughters, 2. do without, or 3. find something on the side.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

This is easy to solve if you are correct and C2 has even a minimal consideration for your well being. 

You pull out - when she dries up - put some type of lubricant on (we use olive oil for this purpose).

She lies on her back, you kneel over her and she finishes you by hand. 

We lay a towel on M2 first - easier cleanup 

What bothers me is that she's happy to accept multiple orgasms by oral, manual, intercourse - but hasn't bothered to try to figure out how to bring you to completion once intercourse is no longer working for her. 

I don't think she's cruel. I DO think she is very selfish. 


[/B]


CopperTop said:


> She knows.
> 
> But she can't help she dries out and <he puts on his flame proof underwear> I tell her it's okay. I know about her hang ups so I know we're done. But I have learned the error of my ways by telling her it's okay (Thanks MEM!) and I won't do that again.
> 
> ...


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

One thing that I'm not sure we've nailed down 100%. 

Copper Top - you are aware that you are living in a sexless marriage? Usually defined as <10 times per year "clinically". You are further aware that her protestations of "normal" are violently wrong? While there is no true "normal", several surveys place "happy couples" as averaging 2-3 times per week, and rare is the person who thinks no sex in a year is "normal" - limited in general to those few people who force it on their spouse.

The initiation thing bugs me. A lot. Her "giving in" or not is on her, but not initiating based on her reactions is a terrible thing. You may be interested in some reading on Responsive Desire vs. Spontaneous Desire. There may in fact be clinical evidence that she literally WON'T get turned on unless you make the moves on her. Therefore, if you won't, you're actually signing your own sexless certificate. 

That you won't even initiate is hiding part of you, denying part of you, rejecting/blocking off part of the person that you are. In short, you're a fraud to present yourself as a man without desire in order to avoid her repudiations. You don't want to "push" the issue - fine. Don't push it, once she says no, leave her alone. But don't hide that part of you. That's insult to injury. Part of this exercise, however, is to show you just how much she actually rejects you.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I'll respond to everyone as quickly as I can, but I am at work now and that takes priority. 

MEM... I would like to start with you as you seem to have the clearest and most keen insight into my situation.




MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> This is easy to solve if you are correct and C2 has even a minimal consideration for your well being.
> 
> ...


I don't want this, but I would accept it. But it won't happen. The reason it won't happen I will explain below.




MEM11363 said:


> What bothers me is that she's happy to accept multiple orgasms by oral, manual, intercourse - but hasn't bothered to try to figure out how to bring you to completion once intercourse is no longer working for her.


Not oral. She won't do that for me nor allow me to do that for her. She will let me kiss her anywhere else, but not there. It's "disgusting." It took me years before she would even allow me to touch her there. She finally allowed it during her first pregnancy as we struggled to continue to be intimate. 

Oral sex, masterbation... none of that is allowed. This isn't something new. I knew about the oral sex thing before we married... but you can't have everything. 




MEM11363 said:


> I don't think she's cruel. I DO think she is very selfish.


I agree. But, I suspect she see's me being selfish as well. Allow me to explain, and I would appreciate any advice you are willing to give.


Last night I pressed her about the counseling. I had mentioned it Friday, and I mentioned it again last night. Of course she wanted to know why I thought we needed counseling. 

I told her that I wanted to improve myself, to make myself more desirable in her eyes. 

She countered that she thought I was just fine as I was. She was happy and wouldn't change a thing. 

So I countered with I wanted her to _want_ me then.

She said she _did_ want me. 

So I asked why weren't we intimate.

Her emotional walls went up so fast it sounded like a thunder clap. She asked if that was what this was all about... SEX?

Now before your advice I would have said no, it was about being close. And that is true, but not the whole truth. So this time I told her YES, but also about how I wanted to feel closer to her. It was how I expressed my love, etc. etc. etc.

To cut to the chase, we discussed this around, but I made no progress. She accused me of being obsessed with sex and it was always about what I wanted. What about what she wanted! Didn't I even care about that?

Anyway, she stomped out of the bathroom and by the times I was done with my ablutions, she was asleep. I leave for work before she gets up, but I'm pretty sure all the improvement I have seen over the last year are going to be absent when I get home.

If I were to look up the word frustrated in the dictionary, I think I would see my picture.


Copper


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Copper,

People here are focusing on what *you* can do and be, in part because you are the one who is here and in part because, really, ultimately, the only person you can change is you.

But the more I read, the more I'm inclined to think his really isn't about you, it's about her.

And what she is feeling/doing/thinking is sadly very common. Women (many of us) are taught from the get-go to be ashamed of our sexuality and ashamed of our own bodies. We often come to believe (and not without some pretty good evidence) that all men want from us is sex, and they judge us, care for us, based solely on how we look and the sex we provide. And we're often told, through religion, through culture, through socialization, that women who enjoy sex are slvts, worthless pieces of garbage to be used and discarded.

Now, as you might well imagine, these conflicting messages are pretty confusing, and can be quite damaging to the women who need to sort through them.

It strikes me that wherever it may have come from, your wife is indeed struggling with these issues, and her way of resolving them is to shut down her sexuality altogether and hide her self under her folds of fat. She is protecting herself from hurt, from rejection, from her own feelings of unworthiness and not being able to measure up.

This is why (I think) she is responding well to you having backed off completely --because she finally feels safe (or at least safer) that you really do love her for more than just sex. And this gives her some incentives and motivation to shed (some of her) protective devices. 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to justify what she is doing, just (attempting to) explain it. Ultimately, what I'm trying to get at is that most of this is not on you, not yours to fix. It is hers.

It's not because you are too dispassionate, too much of a doormat, too weak. It's because like so many women, she has internalized these feelings, and for whatever reason has decided that it is easier/less painful to just turn off sex than to face her fears. This is quite possibly also why she doesn't want to go to counseling.

But if there ever is to be real progress, a change in your dynamic with her, then she will have to face those fears, and it will be uncomfortable, she will be unhappy, perhaps shed tears, perhaps rage, or perhaps just withdraw even further into herself, as she nurses and heals wounds. 

This discomfort is part of the process of healing, and why I agree absolutely with MEM's advice that the immediate, short term soothing of her feelings is counter-productive. If you really want to protect her, to care for her, then you have to let her encounter his discomfort, even provoke it in her. Not in a mean way, of course, because it is also absolutely the safety you provide that allows her to take the risk in the first place. She (likely) *needs* to know, and be reminded of, how deeply you care for her. But she also (likely) *needs* to be challenged, to realize that her protective mechanisms are failing her, and it's time to grow.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Copper,
> 
> People here are focusing on what *you* can do and be, in part because you are the one who is here and in part because, really, ultimately, the only person you can change is you.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. You and MEM seem to be the only ones that see what I see. And you are absolutely right in that MEM's advice was 100% spot on. I recognized it immediately when it was explained it to me and last night, I applied it. 

You are also correct in that she got huffy and stomped away. I don't know what this afternoon will bring, but I will deal with it when I get home. 

Thank you again for your kind words. It does mean a lot to me.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, he does realize, because he actively moves the goal posts when comments become uncomfortable.


I challenge you to point to a post where I move the goal posts.

Let me try to explain this as clearly as I can. Probably 50% of the stuff on the internet is utter <fecal matter>. I'm not going to just take advice until you can rationally explain why your advice is sound.

MEM can do it. And when he did I recognized the validity of his argument. Done. No need to discuss any farther and I have incorporated his suggestion into my person.

=====

So, there are two prevailing thoughts in this thread. Pull back. Be your own man. Don't be a doormat.

The other is, lay down the law. Present her with walking papers and tell if she doesn't change you're out of there.

Now, let's turn this around 180 degrees. 

She walks in and slaps divorce papers on the table and states, "If you don't stop hounding me about sex, I'm out of here!"

I can either knuckle under and do as she says. But if I do that, not only will I be the proverbial "doormat" but I will resent it deeply. I will always wonder and worry if this slip will be the one that causes her to throw her hands in the air, announce I didn't keep my end of the bargain, and leave. End result? Divorce.

But even if I tow the line, I will become ever more resentful until I can stand it no longer. So I either stop caring or stop trying and she walks, or I walk first. End result? Divorce. 

On the other hand, I could say, "This is bull<fecal matter>! I have my wants and needs too, and I am not going to subjugate them just for you!" End result? Divorce. 

Where is the win in any of that? Why does anyone think she would react any differently? 


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I don't think she's cruel. I DO think she is very selfish.



It's a combination of the two - a grown up has to have some basic knowledge of how the plumbing works - choosing to ignore it in such a blatant way is beyond selfish.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

http://http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Tight-Conversations-Lifetime-ebook/dp/B0011UGLQK/ref=tmm_kin_title_0

Deejo recommended this book a few months ago. By rekindling your emotional connection, you may spark a physical connection, too.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> This is the disconnect that we're all talking about, some using different language, but all basically noting it is a problem. You yourself KNOW this is a problem, but you keep minimizing her contributions to it.
> 
> She knows you want sex. She "allows" it infrequently, and even then you don't get off. In what logical (or HELL ILLOGICAL) mind would that NOT be tied to doing it intentionally? She "accidentally" forgot to get you yours? She "can't" stay awake and help you out (as great as you may be - she CAN unless she's narcoleptic)? The answer is clear to everyone - "intentionally" cruel or punishment perhaps not - but mean spirited and willful. ABSOLUTELY. Make no mistake that she fully comprehends your desires, and has absolutely not a single inkling to do literally lift a finger (ok - a "hand") about it.
> 
> Meanwhile, YOU are willing to celibate yourself in order to avoid the fights. You subjugate, in effect, your manhood to her "want to have less sex". You are not in a marriage, a partnership, between equals. Of course she's nice to you - she gets everything she wants, and you get - what exactly? A pleasant roommate?


If she were involved in a car accident and injured, and was no longer able to have sex, I should leave? How about mental illness? Same results, completely different intentions.

She has some (mental) sexual problems that I don't understand. Even if she were to stay awake, she isn't going to use her mouth or hand on me. She thinks oral sex is disgusting and masturbation is gross. Don't ask me why because I don't know. She either can't, or won't, explain it to me. But this is nothing new and I knew she wouldn't allow oral sex (give or receive) before we married.




ET1SSJonota said:


> PS - I'm honestly also having a hard time not tying the sex and her weight issues together. You say her weight issues have been going on for a long time, and you've basically kept the same tactic on it. Maybe it's time for a change. Maybe you should tell her that you love her too much to see her kill herself. 3-5 years? That sounds DRASTIC. Maybe YOU need to be drastic. For her, and yourself. A separation might be the best thing ever for her health - no CopperTop to lean on and keep her going might be the spark she needs to finally drop the weight, and in doing so save her life.


I remember this now. I had responded to another comment very similar to this already, so I skipped it. But I will address it now.

I KNOW her weight is a huge factor in all of this. That is why I work so hard on trying to keep her motivated to do something about it. 

But I also sense that threatening to leave her would destroy what self-esteem she has left. She would withdraw and totally freeze me out. She would crawl back into her comfort zone, talk to her friends on the internet, and soon she would either be dead or we would be divorced. If I were to do that, as I said elsewhere, I should just pack my stuff and leave. There would be no coming back.

And what have I got for my trouble? Seeing my children on weekends. Living alone in an apartment somewhere. Extra expense of maintaining two households. And I still wouldn't be having sex.

So matter how you slice it or rationalize it, I gave up my marriage over <censored>. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I am not buying this, and I feel sad for you that you have. Do you know how many couples HAVE to use lube?! She tried it once and didn't LIKE it. It's lube! She didn't like lube so it's okay for you to go without sexual completion? That is not her being sad about the situation. If she was sad she would be trying every brand of lube they sell to find one she can "deal" with!


I wish I had an answer for you, but I don't. I don't understand it either.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Seriously dude. W.T.F.
> 
> She's so upset she's crying, but she's going to sleep? Does that ring true to you, at all? Honestly?
> 
> Do you have some horrible disfigurement that you don't think you can find or deserve someone who will treat you right? Even if you DO - you're WRONG.


It IS true. 

I understand what you are saying. When I'm upset, I can't sleep. She's not like that. She can sleep, anytime, anywhere, at the drop of a hat. Maybe it is a coping mechanism, I don't know. I'm IT, not a psychologist. . 

All these things everyone points out is WHY I'm TRYING to get her/us into counseling.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm sorry I can't remember if this has been posted. If she has hangups about sex, have you considered going to a sex therapist?


I've tried. I've tried to get her to talk to someone, anyone. I've offered for us to go together. 

She doesn't think there is anything wrong with her, so why does she need counseling? I'm the one with the problem.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You should be masturbating daily, with the door open. If it upsets her, good. If you have sex and she cuts you off without finishing, finish yourself right then and there. If she complains, good. You need to get comfortable with her being out of her comfort zone. She needs that from you.


She would either be asleep, or if not that, she would leave the room. Then that would be one more arrow in her quiver about my sex obsession. 




WorkingOnMe said:


> The thing is, the fact you've been able to go without for so long means you have a very low sex drive. While she's probably a zero or one, you're only a 2 or 3. Enough to complain a bit, but not enough to actually do anything about it.


I control my urges. They don't control me.


Copper


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I challenge you to point to a post where I move the goal posts.
> 
> Let me try to explain this as clearly as I can. Probably 50% of the stuff on the internet is utter <fecal matter>. I'm not going to just take advice until you can rationally explain why your advice is sound.
> 
> ...


This is pathetic. What's the one thing you're most afraid of. Divorce. You have so little self respect that the worst thing that you can imagine is not being married to this woman.

You would be shocked at how easily you can replace her. 

Right now you have a relationship that is completely one sided when it comes to needs being met. The conversations you've relayed all show the same thing, she's happy and doesn't care if you're happy or not. The only problem she has is you whining about sex. And before you even think about disputing that she doesn't care, she threatened to take you to the cleaners if you leave her. She's not happy with you because she loves you, she's happy with you because she has you under her thumb.

So let me ask you a question. What's her incentive to work with you? Right now you are meeting all of her needs. You occasionally whine about sex but she can easily slap you down and shut you up when you do so it's just a minor annoyance to her. She knows you're unhappy but knows her threats about cleaning you out are keeping you where she wants you. So, knowing she has you where she wants you, knowing she is in control of the situation and is happy with it, knowing you're afraid to rock the boat too much for fear she'll leave you, what is her incentive to change?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jld said:


> http://http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Tight-Conversations-Lifetime-ebook/dp/B0011UGLQK/ref=tmm_kin_title_0
> 
> Deejo recommended this book a few months ago. By rekindling your emotional connection, you may spark a physical connection, too.


Thank you. I may look into it.

I like your tagline. Isn't that what I'm doing?


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

Today - don't initiate any lengthy 'discussion'. 

But ask her a single - one sentence question: How would you feel if I said: The only reason you stay with me is because I earn a good living and provide for you? 

----------
It's easy to demonize a partner. And your wife is willing to say just about anything to get you to back off. 

And FWIW: If what she said was anywhere close to the truth - you would have left the marriage by your second child's first birthday. 

The thing is, I DO think you should use your calm style. I disagree with the folks telling you to get angry. 

BUT - the difference is - in the past you've accepted the low ground in these discussions. 

She says: You only care about sex - and you then try to argue that point. But that's a fools errand. 

Stop trying to sell her - and let her try to sell you instead. You do that by asking short simple questions. 

Copper: If all I care about is sex, why have I remained in a marriage where we at best have it twice a year? 

-----------
That said - you cannot hug / approach her in an effort to make her feel better. You need to deal with that statement. 

Because until you get her to stop with the self deception/lying nothng will improve. 




CopperTop said:


> I'll respond to everyone as quickly as I can, but I am at work now and that takes priority.
> 
> MEM... I would like to start with you as you seem to have the clearest and most keen insight into my situation.
> 
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Thank you. I may look into it.
> 
> I like your tagline. Isn't that what I'm doing?
> 
> ...


I'll be honest with you; I have only read a few posts on your thread. But I was impressed, from the little I read, that you do not seem to be interested in the punitive route, but in the route of seeking to understand, and then being understood. It is the mature path, imo. 

You might like the book my signature comes from, too: _The Way of the Superior Man._


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> This is pathetic. What's the one thing you're most afraid of. Divorce. You have so little self respect that the worst thing that you can imagine is not being married to this woman.
> 
> You would be shocked at how easily you can replace her.
> 
> ...


Not much, I grant you. But I have nothing for leverage. As I have said over and over, if I threaten to leave, I might as well go. I think she loves me, but if I destroy that trust, she won't. Then why would she even want me around? So I leave. She will suffer some reduction in her standard of living, but so what? She would still have her friends, and such. Not much in her life would change except now I am the bad guy. The guy who abandoned her because he is a sex freak. So exactly how is my threatening to leave helping? If that is the only way out, we're done already.

But why is everyone in such a rush to divorce? I still love and care for her. I want this to work. Are you telling me that to love her is wrong? Love isn't something you can turn on and off. At least it isn't for me.

I'm trying to stick this out until she can get help or I realize that there is no help to be had. If I didn't mess it up last night, she has been improving in so many ways. 

We are closer now than we were. We laugh more now than we did. No more sex, I grant you, but maybe that was coming too.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This anxiety/insomnia issue is why your marriage is so terribly one sided. It's extremely costly for you to remain in an adversarial posture towards C2 - because it disrupts your sleep. 

Until you can sustain - extended conflict - you have zero hope of changing anything. 




CopperTop said:


> It IS true.
> 
> I understand what you are saying. When I'm upset, I can't sleep. She's not like that. She can sleep, anytime, anywhere, at the drop of a hat. Maybe it is a coping mechanism, I don't know. I'm IT, not a psychologist. .
> 
> ...


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Now, let's turn this around 180 degrees.
> 
> She walks in and slaps divorce papers on the table and states, "If you don't stop hounding me about sex, I'm out of here!"
> 
> I can either knuckle under and do as she says. But if I do that, not only will I be the proverbial "doormat" but I will resent it deeply.


If, as a precondition of marriage, your wife had to take a solemn vow to only ever eat food that you personally provided, would it be okay for you to allow her to starve?

I would guess that even if you don't know the technical term in ethics, you do know that the answer to this question is a resounding, "No." Promises and considerations other people make to us almost always carry concomitant obligations. 

In the Judeo-Christian marriage tradition we make a promise of fidelity to our spouse and that promise is made in good faith. 

I understand the point of your illustration above (i.e. That people do not respond well to threats and ultimatums) but to be fair, the scenario you propose above is not ethically comparable. It would be a demonstration of bad faith; an infantile grasp of right and wrong and a general lack of human decency. *Of course you would be resentful.*

I'm not saying this because I think you should beat your wife over the head with it. (I think AA and Mem have given you some good advice) 

I'm saying this because there is a line beyond which excuses for our spouses do them a disservice and turn them into monsters.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> Today - don't initiate any lengthy 'discussion'.
> 
> ...



MEM... where were you 10, 15, 20 years ago? I see this. I get it and understand it. I will act upon it tonight. 

Thank you so, so, much. 

I'm also taking my female friend to lunch. We're going to talk.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> One thing that I'm not sure we've nailed down 100%.
> 
> Copper Top - you are aware that you are living in a sexless marriage? Usually defined as <10 times per year "clinically". You are further aware that her protestations of "normal" are violently wrong? While there is no true "normal", several surveys place "happy couples" as averaging 2-3 times per week, and rare is the person who thinks no sex in a year is "normal" - limited in general to those few people who force it on their spouse.
> 
> ...


Sorry. I skipped this and meant to come back to it before now.

All the above is true. No argument from me. 

When I was initiating, that was EXACTLY what I did. I would propose, she would reject, I would drop it. 

Then she said something that hurt me. I told her then, "Just forget it! If you want me, you know where I am!" That was the last time I initiated. 

So I nursed my hurt. Then it became habit. And it wasn't until I came back here, asking for help dealing with my creeping resentment, that I realized that I had even stopped trying. I guess it was a wake-up call.

And, now, here I am.


Copper


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Agree with Mem. The proper voice to use is not "anger" but should be focused on "challenging her" and calling her out for her selfish approach with a clear explanation of how it impacts you.

She must be terribly frustrated. Finally had you in the place she wanted - not pestering her for sex for a full year. Now, you have to go upset the apple cart and start bringing up the subject again.

Sex with your wife is not something to be ashamed of. The problem is she's trying (and succeeding) in making this a shame-able subject. 

If you want to take the dispassionate approach, address each situation with cold calculation. Attack the underlying premise of her statements / questions. Re-phrase them when she tries to shame you. 

Her: Are all you interested in is sex? (that implies sex is bad)
You: Aren't you interested in have a healthy relationship with your husband - a typical healthy relationship involves intimacy more than three times a year....

You don't need to show anger to do this. But you have to be willing to challenge her. This is why posters describe you as a "doormat." In most instances that you have described, you play the role of the relationship victim rather than its leader. Her actions have consequences on your happiness (or lack thereof), but you continue to flawlessly fill each one of her needs. Why should she change? She's getting everything she wants and when you do try to protest, she shames you into submission.

My hunch is that when you do start challenging her in a dispassionate way, she will not react well and that divorce option that you seem to abhor will suddenly start looking better and better. She's had it good. She basically gets everything she wants from the relationship without having to give much. When you start challenging her, it will not go over well. You will recognize the level of selfishness that you have had to deal with over time - probably inside and outside of the bedroom.

Your choice will be to stuff your needs / emotions back down again and living a life of quiet desperation in your own little shell. Or you can make you basic fundamental needs/desires known to her (attached with real consequences if she's unable to recognize her role in enabling your happiness.)


----------



## MotoDude (Sep 15, 2010)

So what are you here for again?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> You are also correct in that she got huffy and stomped away. I don't know what this afternoon will bring, but I will deal with it when I get home.


This is the hardest part. Virtually guaranteed that at least some of what she goes through here is reactivation/repetition of the same old self-destructive tape loop that caused this problem in the first place. This may mean back-sliding, even lashing out. Indeed, she may now play the divorce card herself, saying something along the lines of, "maybe you'd prefer/be better off with someone else then."

And, of course, there's no guarantee that she'll want to change in the ways you want.

But if she loves you, and trusts that you are steadfast in loving her for her, not just her body or sexual services, she may very well realize just how much she will lose if she loses you, and that in the end she's only hurting both herself and you by refusing to deal with this problem.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> MEM... where were you 10, 15, 20 years ago? I see this. I get it and understand it. I will act upon it tonight.



You will learn more from how she responds versus what she says.

She can see her error, make more promises, act stressed, project, or accuse you of being a sex fiend. 

I'm betting on some of each.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper--

Some random thoughts. I suspect you will probably hate a lot of these, but they are actionable changes you can make which, if you are consistent, will elicit a change in behavior from your wife.

If you're happy with the status quo, keep doing what you're doing. If you want to shake things up without actually divorcing, it would be worth it to try some of the below. 

1. Stop saying "I love you". No explanation-- just stop. Even when you feel like you should, just don't say it. If she says it to you, say "Thanks."

2. When you have to work late, stop explaining yourself. She knows you have to work late sometimes-- you don't need to explain it. Let her figure it out. 

3. Stop any and all relationship niceties. No more dates, no more flowers. 

4. Confine gifts to birthday and Christmas and make these as unemotional as possible (e.g., $50 gift certificate to some random store). Basically, reduce gift giving into a necessary formality. Treat it as though it is something you would do for a business associate-- totally impersonal, formal, checking a box. No heartfelt cards or messages--actually skip cards altogether!

5. Get involved in a new fitness activity. Something that takes you out of the house routinely. Let her see you making fitness into a more visible and fun part of your life. Let her see that she is missing out on this experience that she could have with you. Never cancel doing this activity in favor of spending time with her.

6. Get hyper vigilant about your diet. Post a list of common foods you eat on the refridgerator door listing calories, carbs, fats, protein, etc. Make it impossible for yourself (and her, by extension) to hide from the consequences of your diet choices. Throw all of the processed junk in the garbage. Tell her that you can't have this food in the house anymore because you don't want the temptations. If she wants to eat junk, she needs to go out of the house to do it. Let her see you getting more and more fitness-focused. Let her see that she is getting left behind as you get in the best shape of your life.

A lot of the above may strike you as mean-spirited and childish. 

But what you are doing right now is not working for either of you.

Doing something like the above will send a message with your actions that when she does the minimum, she gets the minimum back. 

You will show that you respect yourself.

By not leaving her, you will show her that you respect her enough to give her the opportunity to follow you to a healthier place.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> So I nursed my hurt. Then it became habit. And it wasn't until I came back here, asking for help dealing with my creeping resentment, that I realized that I had even stopped trying. I guess it was a wake-up call.


And while you nursed your hurt, she too continued to nurse her own. And for sure, it's a habit for her that will be hard to break.

You both need to find a way so that you can nurse each other's hurts, instead of withdrawing into your own protective shells.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> And while you nursed your hurt, she too continued to nurse her own. And for sure, it's a habit for her that will be hard to break.
> 
> You both need to find a way so that you can nurse each other's hurts, instead of withdrawing into your own protective shells.


That is exactly what that _Hold Me Tight _book addresses.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Copper--
> 
> Some random thoughts. I suspect you will probably hate a lot of these, but they are actionable changes you can make which, if you are consistent, will elicit a change in behavior from your wife.


I suspect that these actionable changes will only serve to heighten her insecurities, make her even less receptive to sex, and drive her even further away from Copper.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I suspect that these actionable changes will only serve to heighten her insecurities, make her even less receptive to sex, and drive her even further away from Copper.


That is a risk.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I suspect that these actionable changes will only serve to heighten her insecurities, make her even less receptive to sex, and drive her even further away from Copper.


less receptive to sex? What is less than zero? It seems to me he can do anything he wants, try anything he wants. He can make her his own personal relationship guinea pig. What's she going to do? Cut him off?


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

jld said:


> http://http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Tight-Conversations-Lifetime-ebook/dp/B0011UGLQK/ref=tmm_kin_title_0
> 
> Deejo recommended this book a few months ago. By rekindling your emotional connection, you may spark a physical connection, too.


jld That's exactly what worked for me as well as improving myself for myself.

55


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> If, as a precondition of marriage, your wife had to take a solemn vow to only ever eat food that you personally provided, would it be okay for you to allow her to starve?
> 
> I would guess that even if you don't know the technical term in ethics, you do know that the answer to this question is a resounding, "No." Promises and considerations other people make to us almost always carry concomitant obligations.


I only have time for this one thing at the moment, and that is because it is quick.

I can't look into her heart to know for sure, but I suspect that if I extend your analogy from her point of view, she would see me as complaining about not having steak every night when the budget only allows for Hamburger Helper.

But I do understand your point.


Copper


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I only have time for this one thing at the moment, and that is because it is quick.
> 
> I can't look into her heart to know for sure, but I suspect that if I extend your analogy from her point of view, she would see me as complaining about not having steak every night when the budget only allows for Hamburger Helper.
> 
> ...


You're still making excuses for her. The budget is based on outside factors, income and expenses. Let me fix this for you.



> she would see me as complaining about not having steak any night when she only likes Hamburger Helper.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> I can't look into her heart to know for sure, but I suspect that if I extend your analogy from her point of view, she would see me as complaining about not having steak every night when the budget only allows for Hamburger Helper.


The analogy was for your ears only and simply to show that the 180 degree scenario you presented was not ethically tenable.

There was no Hamburger Helper in that scenario.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> less receptive to sex? What is less than zero? It seems to me he can do anything he wants, try anything he wants. He can make her his own personal relationship guinea pig. What's she going to do? Cut him off?


I think it's quite sad that so many respondents on this thread seem to think that if she isn't having sex, then she brings absolutely nothing to the relationship.

To me, this sort of POV is exactly why so many women feel like men care only about sex. Because, in fact, it's often true.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MotoDude said:


> So what are you here for again?


I have forgotten. It must because I like self-flagellation. 


Copper


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I think it's quite sad that so many respondents on this thread seem to think that if she isn't having sex, then she brings absolutely nothing to the relationship.
> 
> To me, this sort of POV is exactly why so many women feel like men care only about sex. Because, in fact, it's often true.


If all you cared about was sex, why would you ever get married in the first place?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> If all you cared about was sex, why would you ever get married in the first place?



She knows that's not even close to what I said. It's just a personal 'lashing out'.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT

Copper,
The goal here is to try hard to prevent C2 from pushing you away. 

So here's the thing - the reason she behaves this way is because she is frightened. The idea of sex and sexual intimacy scares her. Probably always has. 

One thing I know from painful experience is this: Two frightened people cannot help each other. 

So - you need to find a way to accept that you are going to try to improve your marriage. 

You will treat C2 the way you would want to be treated - situation reversed. 

Part of being kind means that you will expect C2 to engage in a mix of fight and/or flight behavior becauses she's frightened. And fear often expresses as anger which itself expresses as aggression. 

Until you deal with THAT - you will get nowhere. 

Maybe best to start with some anaesthetic: 
- I know you're afraid 
- Look at me - what do you see on my face? (She needs to see concern and compassion - she better NOT see anger or fear)

The truth is a powerful thing. And this is the truth:
- My goal is to improve our marriage 
- Like getting in shape - it requires effort and will at times feel painful for both of us - sore muscle pain - not cancer pain
- I need you to trust me

----------
If she asks for a divorce - which she may - you need to be honest about that as well. 

C2: If you're going to keep pressuring me to have sex, I want a divorce
Copper: My goal is for us to work together to find a way to make sex something we BOTH want. And something we can actually talk about without fear, anger or both. 
C2: It all feels the same to me - so either stop or we will divorce 
Copper: I'm going to keep working to improve our marriage - if you love me enough to work WITH me, which INCLUDES going to marriage counseling - we will both end up happier. If you don't, you'll file. I will fully support either of those choices because I want you to be happy - even if that means you are happy without me in the picture. 

---------

We both know that C2 is smart. I know it simply via inference. You are very smart. You love C2. That's despite the fact that the physical part of your marriage is actually subtractive. You love her because she has a lot of good qualities - including intelligence. 

So she may try some word twisting: 
C2: So if I refuse MC you're going to divorce me. 
Copper: I'll just go by myself until curiosity gets the better of you and you join me 
C2: I'm not going to cooperate - either divorce me or leave me alone 

If it reaches that point - wrap it up with: I'm sorry you're upset, I know this is hard. (It will be tempting to say: I will NEVER divorce you. Do NOT say that. Because that goes beyond support into coddling. And coddling produces BAD behavior. 

---------
All that said - you can ONLY succeed if you accept that no matter what C2 does, you are going to be ok. She might engage and I prove the marriage. She might get aggressive and then divorce you. Either way - you'll be fine. 

The calmer you are - the stronger she perceives you - the more she will desire to stay with you. 

And you ought to record the conversation - not for legal reasons. But so you can listen to yourself after and look for areas to fine tune. 






always_alone said:


> I suspect that these actionable changes will only serve to heighten her insecurities, make her even less receptive to sex, and drive her even further away from Copper.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> To me, this sort of POV is exactly why so many women feel like men care only about sex. Because, in fact, it's often true.


Twenty years, AA. That's a long time.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She knows that's not even close to what I said. It's just a personal 'lashing out'.


Actually, what I was doing was using your specific post as an example to make a wider point about some of the responses here.

A failed one, obviously.

I get that you weren't saying explicitly that nothing matters but sex, but when you can't even fathom that hurting Copper's wife might be not just affect her, but further hurt him as well, you might as well be saying that the only point of relevance or interest she has to offer is sex. Because that's all you're willing to acknowledge.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

You're right. Some of these seem a little on the cold side, but I also understand the concept of doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.

But can you clarify these two for me? There have been a lot of posts and you may have missed where I spoke a little about myself. I just want to make sure I am not missing some hidden truth. 



Anon1111 said:


> 5. Get involved in a new fitness activity. Something that takes you out of the house routinely. Let her see you making fitness into a more visible and fun part of your life. Let her see that she is missing out on this experience that she could have with you. Never cancel doing this activity in favor of spending time with her.
> 
> 6. Get hyper vigilant about your diet. Post a list of common foods you eat on the refridgerator door listing calories, carbs, fats, protein, etc. Make it impossible for yourself (and her, by extension) to hide from the consequences of your diet choices. Throw all of the processed junk in the garbage. Tell her that you can't have this food in the house anymore because you don't want the temptations. If she wants to eat junk, she needs to go out of the house to do it. Let her see you getting more and more fitness-focused. Let her see that she is getting left behind as you get in the best shape of your life.


I already workout at home seven nights a week. Cardio every night, weights three nights. I have the machines because I didn't want to have to go to the gym.

I'm 52 years old, 6'0 tall, and weight about 190. (193.2 this morning) My body shape falls somewhere between runner thin and bodybuilder bulky. I'm not a gym rat and don't want to be. I don't know what my BMI is and don't care. 

My stomach is flat and I have decent muscle definition. I am in better shape than all my friends, some of who are about 20 years younger than I am. When I look around at my peers when I am out, I see very few that are in as good a shape as I am. 

I have all my hair and all my teeth. I dress neatly but conservatively. Docker type pants, casual shoes, oxford button downs, sweater in the winter. I do wear glasses. 

I already eat a diet totally different than the rest of my family. I eat heavy on the fruits and vegetables, nearly no refined sugar. I drink water almost exclusively and a treat for me is some fruit juice. 

My sole indulgence is a single Hersey's Dark Chocolate Kiss after dinner.

If I throw all the "bad" stuff out, that will make it pretty hard on my two kids. They are active and not overweight, and it seems to be a shame to deprive them of sandwiches and chips because my wife's weight problems. 

Are you saying I need to do more than this, do more outside the home, or the above doesn't really apply to me? To be honest, I don't WANT to do more than this. I hate what I do already. I don't do it because I enjoy it, I do it because it is the right thing for me to do.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> QFT
> 
> Copper,
> The goal here is to try hard to prevent C2 from pushing you away.
> ...



This feels so RIGHT! 

Sometime I hope you will private message me your address. I would like to send you a thank you card.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Step 0*

Copper,
Before you actually attempt to engage C2. 

Two important steps.
1. Go to the gym and do a blowout workout - flood your system with endorphins 
2. Remind yourself that you are 50% responsible for the state of your sex life because you've tolerated the status quo for so very long

The intent of those steps is to ensure you engage - feeling totally calm and not judgmental.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I think it's quite sad that so many respondents on this thread seem to think that if she isn't having sex, then she brings absolutely nothing to the relationship.


Thank you! Finally!


Copper


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> ...turn this around 180 degrees.
> 
> She walks in and slaps divorce papers on the table and states, "If you don't stop hounding me about sex, I'm out of here!"
> 
> ...


1.) You're massively oversimplifying. Part of this, I suspect, is your inability to look past the "act" of sex into what it actually means, at least in part, to YOU. Clearly not to her, but to you. 

What do I mean by that? You continually push the narrative that you'd be leaving for some "p^ssy". I'm imagining she's used language exactly along these lines and you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. This would be "shaming" BTW. I'll come back to that.

So the question, for posterity: is "horny" the description of the feelings you have, lying in bed, unsatisfied, yearning to feel the closeness of her touch, the connectedness of the before, during, and afterwards of the most intimate act that a couple can do? "Damn, CopperTop is horny and this b1tch won't do it for me!" I'm suspecting that is almost the polar opposite of how you feel. You feel lonely. You feel rejected. You feel unwanted. You feel unattractive. Unfulfilled. Like some great portion of the connection you have with you wife lies dangling in the wind, occasionally sparking whenever you have a moment of intimacy, however fleeting. 

STOP BEING ASHAMED OF YOURSELF AND YOUR SEXUALITY. 

Have a browse through this forum. There are tons of people in your proximate situation that while varying in degree are going through the same thoughts and feelings, and a LOT of them place divorce pretty high on their options list. Many of them do. Further many of those go on to have fantastic relationships with lots of good intimacy in part because they're regained their self-respect. 

Directly to your 180 comment. As someone mentioned already, this is not a morally equivalent argument. Further, the spiral of resentment is something you are ALREADY IN. If your relaying of the situation is unbiased and 100% accurate, most people would have already been much farther down that rabbit hole. Read that in that I admire your strength. What I don't admire is how much it seems to bind you into your own pity hole. 

Be real here: you hide a significant portion of yourself to avoid her coldness. There are basically only a finite amount of options to the situation if she continues to act as she does. Particularly if you're unwilling to REALLY change the dynamic. 

Why, exactly, is chemical castration not an option? You just like to punish yourself? When your thread began, it was one of the first things that came to mind in a practical way: because you seem intent on sticking it out due to some distorted honor/shame function. So why not? Kill your libido - and all should be well, right? 

I suspect you know very well that it wouldn't. I further suspect that this is because you ALSO know that it isn't JUST the sex. There are a myriad number of underlying connections there, a number of which have already been directly pointed out in this thread. You either ignore them, or you play the apologist for your wife, and ascribe feelings or lack thereof to justify it to yourself. 

Here's a fun exercise. "C2, you know I have struggled with my sexuality with you for some time. I have been considering chemical castration, as it would allow me to overcome my thoughts and feelings about sex in order to more fully enjoy our life together. What are your thoughts to that respect?"

I'd be extremely interested in that answer. 

Lastly, and this is getting repetitive from me and other posters. You accept, basically, an ultimatum already: no talking about sex or you get the cold shoulder. Your like an intimacy starved man, literally begging for that scrap of touch/feeling, so she takes that away if you "misbehave" (yes, this is the "doormat" thing again). Why isn't resentment building there Copper? Why isn't that heading to divorce? From her: because you continue to provide when she does it, so what is SHE losing? NOTHING. Divorce WOULD cost her, which is why she doesn't do it. It has value, your intimacy does not. Satisfying you, basically in any way, is not only not a priority for her, but it basically registers next to zero on the "willing to". 

I think MEM recognized that you really aren't willing to do much here, which is why his first few posts were rather non-committal in terms of your thread. I think he's probably right. Of course, you were rather straightforward in that yourself by describing your desire in the situation to find a way to "deal with yourself" of "cope". Well - chemical castration deals with it. But you reject. Divorce deals with it. But you reject. You've talked to her, and it's gone to the same dynamic as before. 

What are you going to do different?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Twenty years, AA. That's a long time.


I understand that, ocotillo. And frankly, I wouldn't be able to stand it myself, so I get why anyone else would be either miserable or long gone.

But choosing to withdraw and punish a spouse for not putting out enough is both devaluing anything else that person brings to the table, as well as driving home the point that getting that sex is really the only thing you (not you personally, of course, but one) cares about.


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You're right. Some of these seem a little on the cold side, but I also understand the concept of doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
> 
> But can you clarify these two for me? There have been a lot of posts and you may have missed where I spoke a little about myself. I just want to make sure I am not missing some hidden truth.
> 
> ...


Let me just address your fitness and the suggestions you keep getting to improve it. The vast majority of the men who post here needing help with their marriages are not physically fit. The longer the marriage goes the more complacent they get and the less they exercise. People who are going through marital difficulties are always advised to improve their fitness, particularly men. That advise is because lifting weights not only improves a mans health and physical attractiveness, it releases endorphins and helps combat the depression that this kind of problem causes, as well as aiding in appetite and sleep, two more problems that people having marital difficulties suffer from. It's advice that is not applicable in your case but the people giving you advice may be involved in a dozen other threads and some times it's difficult to remember which thread has the fit guy in it. 

At least two people have suggested you get fit after you have already explained your fitness, and you'll probably get more of the same. Ignore it.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

*Re: Step 0*



MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> Before you actually attempt to engage C2.
> 
> Remind yourself that you are 50% responsible for the state of your sex life because you've tolerated the status quo for so very long
> ...


Yes. I understand, and I acknowledge my faults in getting us here. I am a sadder and wiser, but not as bitter, Copper than I was a few days ago.


Copper


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Copper, 

I think MEM is 100% on the mark. Listen to him. That being said, I also think that one thing that is very important to acknowledge is that a) C2 won't change until "staying the same" is more painful than changing and b) you can not MAKE C2 choose to change. 

I can tell that you know both of these statements just by the way you write and speak, but I want to REMIND you of them because for a long time, you have made it "comfortable" for her to remain sexless. Now I'm not saying you should punish her or be vengeful, but rather that by allowing her to be "comfortable" in her asexual approach to marriage, you have taught her by your actions that it is okay. If you truly love her and want the best for her, you will want to allow her to learn that offering asexuality is unacceptable and has a cost. 

See, Copper, every choice we make in life has both a cost and a benefit. If I offer a great sex life, the cost is time and energy. If I offer no sex, I may save both time and energy, but the cost is the relationship deteriorates. Up to now, you have not been allowing her to see this "cost/benefit" side of her choices--you've been covering up for her and paying the cost of her choices. Now, the question is this: do you actually love her enough to allow her to experience the discomfort so she has the opportunity to grow as a woman and wife? You will also have to endure some discomfort to allow her to grow--so is that how much you love her? Are you able to endure some pain on your side? She will do everything in her power to avoid the discomfort and make it "go back to the way it was" because "the way it was" was comfortable! So be aware that if you start this discomfort, you have to be ready to persevere and see it through!

Next, it is conceivable that whatever her mental wall is toward sexuality, that it is so deep and so severe that she would rather lose you and her family and her lifestyle than to face herself and address it. You can not MAKE her want to be sexual or want to face herself. As much as you may want her to be healthy or be brave enough to face herself, some people just do not have the strength and they run or they blow up their family in the attempt to avoid facing themselves. Just be aware that it's like the proverbial horse and the water--you can lead her to a healthy attitude toward sex, but in the end SHE has to choose it. You can not "make her drink."


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You're right. Some of these seem a little on the cold side, but I also understand the concept of doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
> 
> But can you clarify these two for me? There have been a lot of posts and you may have missed where I spoke a little about myself. I just want to make sure I am not missing some hidden truth.
> 
> ...


The point of all this is to destablize the relationship. The two of you are on autopilot. You are both miserable in different ways. Yes, I know there are some positive aspects to your life, but you are clearly unhappy. 

Exercise:
My suggestion is to bring the exercise beyond the "working out" level into the fun activity level. So basically a sport. 

You mentioned yourself that you have been in great shape for so long that your wife doesn't even notice. Taking your activity outside of the home may get her to notice, but more importantly, it will expose you to a new challenge. It will take your mind off your situation with her. 

This is not just about exercise-- it is really about your mind. Find something new and challenging that also encourages you to be at your physical best. 

Let her see you taking on this new challenge and succeeding. It may inspire her to challenge herself.

Diet:

Again, this is meant to be destablizing. I assume your children are older given their ages. Talk to them and say you are very worried about their mother's health. Say you need as a family to help her and one easy way to do that is to remove all non-healthy food from the house. 

Show her that you all as a family are willing to make the same sacrifices she will make. Think about it from her perspective-- it must be torture to watch her kids tear into a bag of potato chips while she is supposed to be on a diet.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Copper,
> 
> 
> See, Copper, every choice we make in life has both a cost and a benefit. If I offer a great sex life, the cost is time and energy. If I offer no sex, I may save both time and energy, but the cost is the relationship deteriorates. Up to now, you have not been allowing her to see this "cost/benefit" side of her choices--you've been covering up for her and paying the cost of her choices. Now, the question is this: do you actually love her enough to allow her to experience the discomfort so she has the opportunity to grow as a woman and wife? You will also have to endure some discomfort to allow her to grow--so is that how much you love her? Are you able to endure some pain on your side? She will do everything in her power to avoid the discomfort and make it "go back to the way it was" because "the way it was" was comfortable! So be aware that if you start this discomfort, you have to be ready to persevere and see it through!


This is really great advice. If you are a nice guy, it is much more comfortable for you to keep being nice, even when your wife mistreats you.

It is much harder in some ways to draw a clear line that says, I won't keep giving when you do not meet my needs.

This is where I was coming from with my suggestions above that I fully admit are cold.

Personally, I would prefer to never act this way, however, I have and I have gotten results from it when I have maintained it consistently.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> 1.) You're massively oversimplifying. Part of this, I suspect, is your inability to look past the "act" of sex into what it actually means, at least in part, to YOU. Clearly not to her, but to you.
> 
> What do I mean by that? You continually push the narrative that you'd be leaving for some "p^ssy". I'm imagining she's used language exactly along these lines and you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. This would be "shaming" BTW. I'll come back to that.


No. She never said that. I don't recall her ever using a vulgar phrase or word the entire time I have known her. Ever. Even when she is mad or upset, she has never called me a name or uttered a profanity. That is just how I feel. Or would feel if I were to pull the trigger on the divorce. 




ET1SSJonota said:


> So the question, for posterity: is "horny" the description of the feelings you have, lying in bed, unsatisfied, yearning to feel the closeness of her touch, the connectedness of the before, during, and afterwards of the most intimate act that a couple can do? "Damn, CopperTop is horny and this b1tch won't do it for me!" I'm suspecting that is almost the polar opposite of how you feel. You feel lonely. You feel rejected. You feel unwanted. You feel unattractive. Unfulfilled. Like some great portion of the connection you have with you wife lies dangling in the wind, occasionally sparking whenever you have a moment of intimacy, however fleeting.


It's both. I miss the touching, but I also miss what it means. I do feel rejected, but not so much unwanted. I don't feel all that unattractive, but I do feel unfulfilled. The last sentence hits very close to home.




ET1SSJonota said:


> STOP BEING ASHAMED OF YOURSELF AND YOUR SEXUALITY.
> 
> Have a browse through this forum. There are tons of people in your proximate situation that while varying in degree are going through the same thoughts and feelings, and a LOT of them place divorce pretty high on their options list. Many of them do. Further many of those go on to have fantastic relationships with lots of good intimacy in part because they're regained their self-respect.
> 
> Directly to your 180 comment. As someone mentioned already, this is not a morally equivalent argument. Further, the spiral of resentment is something you are ALREADY IN. If your relaying of the situation is unbiased and 100% accurate, most people would have already been much farther down that rabbit hole. Read that in that I admire your strength. What I don't admire is how much it seems to bind you into your own pity hole.


As accurately as I can present it, with the understanding that it is colored by my perceptions. The way I see it, lying about it only will get me bad advice since you are not working with all the facts, or worse, the wrong facts. 

It was that resentment that started this all. I recognized that I was feeling it, and I knew it was going to destroy either me, or my marriage. I have been lurking here for a while, picking up a tidbit here and there to try. But nothing seemed quite what I needed, which was to cope with my feelings of resentment and bitterness. So I started this thread... asking for help. 

I have received help. And a lot of it. I am thankful to all that have taken the time to listen and to post. It wasn't the help I asked for... it was BETTER.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Be real here: you hide a significant portion of yourself to avoid her coldness. There are basically only a finite amount of options to the situation if she continues to act as she does. Particularly if you're unwilling to REALLY change the dynamic.
> 
> Why, exactly, is chemical castration not an option? You just like to punish yourself? When your thread began, it was one of the first things that came to mind in a practical way: because you seem intent on sticking it out due to some distorted honor/shame function. So why not? Kill your libido - and all should be well, right?


I did a through investigation of it. I finally decided it wasn't for me. But I considered it, seriously. 





ET1SSJonota said:


> I suspect you know very well that it wouldn't. I further suspect that this is because you ALSO know that it isn't JUST the sex. There are a myriad number of underlying connections there, a number of which have already been directly pointed out in this thread. You either ignore them, or you play the apologist for your wife, and ascribe feelings or lack thereof to justify it to yourself.


As I said somewhere else in this thread. The internet is mostly full of crap. If someone can't defend their position rationally, then I am probably not interested in following their advice. 

I wasn't so much apologizing for her as I was trying to see the world from her point of view and by extension, trying to predict how she would react. If following given advice didn't appear to advance me, the advice giver need to further defend/explain their position. That's all there is to my apparent obstructionism. After 26 years of marriage, I know how my wife will react to stimulus better than anyone else will. I'm applying that lens to the advice given here.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Here's a fun exercise. "C2, you know I have struggled with my sexuality with you for some time. I have been considering chemical castration, as it would allow me to overcome my thoughts and feelings about sex in order to more fully enjoy our life together. What are your thoughts to that respect?"
> 
> I'd be extremely interested in that answer.


You know what? So would I. I have NO idea her reaction to that. Laughing would be my first guess, but that could be dead wrong.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Lastly, and this is getting repetitive from me and other posters. You accept, basically, an ultimatum already: no talking about sex or you get the cold shoulder. Your like an intimacy starved man, literally begging for that scrap of touch/feeling, so she takes that away if you "misbehave" (yes, this is the "doormat" thing again). Why isn't resentment building there Copper? Why isn't that heading to divorce? From her: because you continue to provide when she does it, so what is SHE losing? NOTHING. Divorce WOULD cost her, which is why she doesn't do it. It has value, your intimacy does not. Satisfying you, basically in any way, is not only not a priority for her, but it basically registers next to zero on the "willing to".
> 
> I think MEM recognized that you really aren't willing to do much here, which is why his first few posts were rather non-committal in terms of your thread. I think he's probably right. Of course, you were rather straightforward in that yourself by describing your desire in the situation to find a way to "deal with yourself" of "cope". Well - chemical castration deals with it. But you reject. Divorce deals with it. But you reject. You've talked to her, and it's gone to the same dynamic as before.
> 
> What are you going to do different?


Only in the last year have I been accepting her ultimatum. That is a mistake on my part. I acknowledge that and I'm trying to correct that mistake now. 

There was some minor resentment before, but I was working on the issues still. Not terribly successfully, I grant you, but I was engaged. I don't get upset by setbacks. If I did, I would have blown my head off long ago because my job is all about two steps forward, one step back.

When things don't go my way, I just grit my teeth and work the problem. I don't have time or resources to devote to being resentful or mad or whatever. I have to FIX this. That's how I have dealt with it over the years. It wasn't until I "gave up" that I became "broken." 

So, yes, she knocked me down, and bloodied my nose. And it hurt. But I'm back on my feet now, and I'm coming for her. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> The point of all this is to destablize the relationship. The two of you are on autopilot. You are both miserable in different ways. Yes, I know there are some positive aspects to your life, but you are clearly unhappy.
> 
> Exercise:
> My suggestion is to bring the exercise beyond the "working out" level into the fun activity level. So basically a sport.
> ...


I race my 1962 Austin-Healey. This is something I've undertaken in the last five years. I'm pretty good too. I win most of the time (with the understanding that there isn't a lot of competition in the under 1-litre stock class).

My son and I love doing it. I have asked her to go. She absolutely couldn't care less. 




Anon1111 said:


> Diet:
> 
> Again, this is meant to be destablizing. I assume your children are older given their ages. Talk to them and say you are very worried about their mother's health. Say you need as a family to help her and one easy way to do that is to remove all non-healthy food from the house.
> 
> Show her that you all as a family are willing to make the same sacrifices she will make. Think about it from her perspective-- it must be torture to watch her kids tear into a bag of potato chips while she is supposed to be on a diet.


If I can stand it, I don't know why she can't too. But okay. I see your point. I will talk to the kids, without her present, and explain my position. See if I can get their buy in. I would rather them be on board with this than to have to pull the daddy card.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

There was some discussion that I should talk to a woman friend and get her take on my situation. I had just the person in mind. Ann (not her real name, but easy to type) and I have been coworkers for about 22 year and good friends for maybe 15. 

She is ten years my senior (62) and is a quite attractive woman, even more so considering her age. She is happily married and there is no sexual tension between us. Wife knows Ann and Ann knows wife, and they have met a couple of times. 

Ann and I went to lunch today and after extracting her promise this was for her ears ONLY, I laid it all out. Her first response was she was surprised. She commented that I seemed so happy all the time and that the few times she has seen wife and I together, we both seemed very happy and content. 

The next thing was she surprised at how little sex we had. She and her hubby go 2-3 times a week when he's home. She would prefer to go a lot less (once a month or less), but she does it for him. He works out of town and is gone for months at a time and she wants to make sure he knows what is waiting for him at home to keep him… happy.

The final comment was that she was surprise at how energetic I was and how often I would like to go, if I could. She said that I gave absolutely no indication that I was "such a wild man." She knew I liked women, but she said that I treat women with respect and as equals, and don’t act like a lot of other men she knew. She appreciated the fact that I didn't stare, make lewd comments, or engage in crude humor, even when others are. 

Remembering what Anon Pink said, and with that comment, I asked if I was boring. Ann said NO! She said I was great fun to be with and that I made her laugh. She loved to laugh and according to her, if I can make a woman laugh, I’m 90% of the way there.

I asked her what I should do. Ann said she had no idea, it was beyond her comprehension. She said as I was smart, funny, dependable and, if what I said was true, passionate, if wife were smart she would “latch onto me and hold on with both hands.” The other thing she thought wife was probably self-conscious about her weight and that was part of her problem. Her advice was just to try to help her along as much as I could to lose weight, be gentle and patient with her, and hope that things got better. She said she felt sorry for me. 

She also teased me by telling me that if I ever came on the market to let her know. She had friends she wanted to fix me up with.

In the final analysis, she thought wife was crazy. She said she could understand her lack of desire (referring to her lower level of desire compared to her seven year younger husband I guess), but that was no excuse. 


Copper


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> In the final analysis, she thought wife was crazy. She said she could understand her lack of desire (referring to her lower level of desire compared to her seven year younger husband I guess), but that was no excuse.


Is it crazier to tolerate a 20 year sexless marriage?

To me it seems like you're not the victim here, it's more like you are a willing and enabling participant.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

P.S. I don't envy your situation and I think it's a real shame for the both of you, that your marriage has devolved into 20 years of minimal sexual intimacy.

That said, since you readily rationalise and enable that circumstance, your consensual celibacy can't be that unpalatable.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> Is it crazier to tolerate a 20 year sexless marriage?
> 
> To me it seems like you're not the victim here, it's more like you are a willing and enabling participant.





Personal said:


> P.S. I don't envy your situation and I think it's a real shame for the both of you, that your marriage has devolved into 20 years of minimal sexual intimacy.
> 
> That said, since you readily rationalise and enable that circumstance, your consensual celibacy can't be that unpalatable.


No offense taken.

I acknowledge my participation in creating these events. It was a long slow slide into apathy. I was tripped up by a couple of things that I was doing that I thought were right and just, but were pointed out to me how they were actually damaging my relationship. 

I now have a couple of new tools and insights that I didn't have before. 


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The next thing was she surprised at how little sex we had. She and her hubby go 2-3 times a week when he's home. She would prefer to go a lot less (once a month or less), but she does it for him. He works out of town and is gone for months at a time and she wants to make sure he knows what is waiting for him at home to keep him… happy.
> 
> 
> Copper


So now you have it not from random internet strangers, but an acquaintance of your own, that you place some trust in. 2-3 times a week. 10 years older. I didn't see the follow up of "does that make you resent and hate him since you only want it once a month". Did that occur or was it overlooked?

There's a mismatch in desire there - but it's not a problem because she's ok with meeting her husbands desires, to at least some extent. There's a power in just that level of... what's the proper word... submission isn't it, but it's close. It's not subservience in nature, but loving and giving. And something you apparently don't get from your wife.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Copper,
> 
> I think MEM is 100% on the mark. Listen to him. That being said, I also think that one thing that is very important to acknowledge is that a) C2 won't change until "staying the same" is more painful than changing and b) you can not MAKE C2 choose to change.
> 
> ...


I can do this. MEM pointed out something to me, how my desire to protect her was getting in my way. Not the rationalizing I keep being accused of here, but the desire to not hurt her. I didn't realize it at the time, but he's right. 

She was inching me ever so slightly, in tiny little increments, in the direction she wanted me to go, and I didn't even know it. I was the boiled frog.

But now that he has made me aware of what I was doing, I think I can combat that and I can start pushing back. With time, I might even be able to push her all the way back to how it was in the beginning. 

And, if in the process, the "horse" kicks the <fecal matter> of me rather than drinks, then at least I will know I have done all I could. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> So now you have it not from random internet strangers, but an acquaintance of your own, that you place some trust in. 2-3 times a week. 10 years older. I didn't see the follow up of "does that make you resent and hate him since you only want it once a month". Did that occur or was it overlooked?
> 
> There's a mismatch in desire there - but it's not a problem because she's ok with meeting her husbands desires, to at least some extent. There's a power in just that level of... what's the proper word... submission isn't it, but it's close. It's not subservience in nature, but loving and giving. And something you apparently don't get from your wife.


It wasn't over looked. I didn't even ask. I didn't have to. I could see it in her eyes. 

The difference is, she wants to do this for her husband. C2 does not want to do the same for me. 

For a while I thought it was me. So, about ten years ago, I got my <fecal matter> together and started hitting the weights a lot harder. I didn't loose a lot of weight, but I toned up, trimmed down, and got into shape. 

When that didn't change anything, yet C2 an Ann were praising me for the change, I decided it wasn't me... or at least it wasn't JUST me.

I'm smiling now because I remember going to work in jeans one day because I had to move some very bulky and dirty computer equipment around and I didn't want to mess up my nice pants. Ann said, and I quote, "Mmmm... mmmm... mmmm... you sure do know how to fill out some jean." 

She was just yanking on my chain, as she is wont to do, but I haven't felt as good about myself a day sense.


Copper


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Do you consider yourself flexible and easy going?

As long as I don't care about something or am neutral about it I'm always easy going and flexible.

On the other hand, if I do care about something I am highly determined, relentless and unyielding.

How can you push her back, when you so readily concede and acknowledge this and that, while also being afraid to hurt her?

Do you really care for her in a visceral and passionate way?

Are you the kind of person that prefers to hide behind the armour of acquiescence, rather than admit to themselves that their ready prostration is a symptom of having little care for the other at all?


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> There was some discussion that I should talk to a woman friend and get her take on my situation.
> 
> The final comment was that she was surprise at how energetic I was and how often I would like to go, if I could. She said that
> 
> ...


What did I tell you Copper? Now tell Ann you're not in the market but if she has friends you wouldn't mind and it would really be helpful having someone to just talk to occasionally.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> It wasn't over looked. I didn't even ask. I didn't have to. I could see it in her eyes.
> 
> The difference is, she wants to do this for her husband. C2 does not want to do the same for me.
> 
> ...


I guess where I was going with that was what does she do for you in the relationship that isn't also selfish in nature? Where is her "compromise"? Because despite your protestations otherwise, she appears extremely selfish and controlling.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> Do you consider yourself flexible and easy going?
> 
> As long as I don't care about something or am neutral about it I'm always easy going and flexible.
> 
> ...


When I want something I am focused and determined. But yes, I am also easy going. But that can also be a strength.

While I might like to be intimate every night, or several times a week, I could probably content myself with once a week, or at this point, even once a month.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> What did I tell you Copper? Now tell Ann you're not in the market but if she has friends you wouldn't mind and it would really be helpful having someone to just talk to occasionally.


Maybe. I was feeling pretty low at that moment. I'm not sure how much of that was truth, how much was teasing to lighten the mood, and how much was trying to lift me up.

She knew she would be safe in saying something like that because she knew I would never act on it. I feel safe being friends with Ann because, when you get right down to it, it's just a working relationship. In the twenty odd years I have known Ann, I have met with her outside of work only three or four times, and with at least a couple of those, wife was with me.

But female friends outside of work? Sounds like that could cause all kinds of questions that I just as soon not have asked. At least not until things are better at home.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I guess where I was going with that was what does she do for you in the relationship that isn't also selfish in nature? Where is her "compromise"? Because despite your protestations otherwise, she appears extremely selfish and controlling.


Outside the marriage bed? Lots of ways. 

This was said earlier in the thread...



Zouz said:


> Have you ever seen a spouse saying , hi , I'm selfish I am denying my spouse sex every night ?!





ocotillo said:


> Yes.
> 
> There have actually been several on TAM. They didn't use the word, "Selfish" because they honestly didn't seem seem to think that it was selfish. They appeared to be truly LD people who saw their lack of need as a need unto itself.
> 
> I don't agree with that mindset and can't wrap my mind around it, but at the same time, I think it's probably important not to view things in the meanest possible terms.


Everyone saw me as making excuses, not wanting to change and willing to accept her bad behavior. But it wasn't that. I had this feeling that I couldn't find the words to describe that it was more than that. It wasn't that she was denying me because she was cruel and selfish and just engaged in bad behavior. 

But octillo said it perfectly. When I read what he wrote, it was like a splash of cold water. That was what I was reading from her, but couldn't describe. 

He finally put into words what I couldn't understand, and suddenly everything became so much clearer and easier to understand. MEM's comments also have helped and given me a path forward. Some of which I had already tried, but his suggestions confirmed that he believes I was on the right track.

I love my wife. I love her more now, today, than I have in a long time. The insights and suggestions have removed some of the fog, and last night she did something that made me realize how much I do care.

Details on that later. Work first.


Copper


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> While I might like to be intimate every night, or several times a week, I could probably content myself with once a week, or at this point, even once a month.
> Copper


It has been so long I doubt you have a clue what would be "enough" or what you want. Really. You say every night but if it was available when needed I bet you perhaps couldn't handle every night after a while. A few times a week would be you limit and a couple probably perfectly fine...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

anonmd said:


> It has been so long I doubt you have a clue what would be "enough" or what you want. Really. You say every night but if it was available when needed I bet you perhaps couldn't handle every night after a while. A few times a week would be you limit and a couple probably perfectly fine...


At this point, once a week would be beautiful!


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

When I arrived home last night I could tell wife was tense and upset about something. My first thought was, "Ah, hell. I'm in for it now," after our talk the night before.

She said nothing about what was bothering her during our family time. So after dinner, as we cleaned up the kitchen, I asked her what was bothering her. It seemed like as good a way to start "the talk" as any.

She started in on what a crappy day she had at work. The details don't matter, but for forty minutes I listened to her vent, asking questions when I didn't understand something, encouraging her to continue when she wound down. Actively listening.

When she finally ran down, she stepped up to me and we held each other. We stood there for a long time, at least 3, 4, maybe 5 minutes, saying nothing. 

She finally had enough and she backed out of my embrace and gave me a kiss. She told me thank you for listening and then she said she loved me and didn't know what she would do without me. 

None of this is related to what is going on here on Talk About Marriage. She has no idea that I'm here. But this is why I stay. I felt so good about myself, that I could be there for her, to comfort her after a bad day.

I decided then that we wouldn't have "the talk" that night. The night was going to end on a positive note and I didn't want to ruin it. 

She seems to have forgotten about my desire to go to counseling. Tonight I will take the good feelings from last night and try to use them to show her how much I care and how it's not "just about the sex."


Copper


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper-- I am going to give you a different take on this latest interaction. It's probably not how you would like to think of it, but I think it is worth considering.

You get off on your sacrifice. By being there for your wife even when she makes no effort to meet your needs, you feel like you're a great person.

There is some truth to this perspective.

On the other hand, your continual elevation of your sacrifice above your other needs has led to a great inbalance.

You must now really convince yourself that your sacrifice is really so much more valuable than everything else because that is all you really have.

When you are always there for your wife even when she is not there for you, what do you think she learns from that?

When she says "I don't know what I would do without you," do you think she has any fear at ALL that you might not ever be there for her?

I bet she does not.

Unfortunately, I think allowing her to feel a bit uncertain about you is the only thing that would cause her to snap out of her inertia.

I do not think you need to be overt, but I think you should not always be there for her the way you are now.

You are both too comfortable with this arrangement. She does not need to do anything and you get to feel like a champion for continuously placing her above you.

Let her wonder whether you will really still be there for her if she continues on her present course.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Copper-- I am going to give you a different take on this latest interaction. It's probably not how you would like to think of it, but I think it is worth considering.
> 
> You get off on your sacrifice. By being there for your wife even when she makes no effort to meet your needs, you feel like you're a great person.
> 
> ...


Point taken. 

It's hard though. I've always been the strong one, the one that is there to lend a hand when the going gets tough.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Maybe. I was feeling pretty low at that moment. I'm not sure how much of that was truth, how much was teasing to lighten the mood, and how much was trying to lift me up.


Here's the thing Dawg. If Ann didn't care, she wouldn't have tried to lift you up in the first place. Women don't try to lift up men they don't care about. They'll ignore them or even try to put them down more. (like the chick take told you you'd make a good husband but wouldn't be fun to date. It wasn't an accident she phrased it like like) You've been around that iceburg you've been married, and some like her, to so long you're judging all other women by her. Remember that girls that are into you often are teasing, and playful. 
Reconsider talking with Ann about introducing you to some girls you can talk to. You need a break from that toxic environment for your own good. Don't worry about all kinds of questions that you just as soon not have asked. You're always in control and your just having a sympathetic ear with a person you don't have to feel like, "Ah, hell. I'm in for it now,". You really don't have a lot to lose my man.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing Dawg. If Ann didn't care, she wouldn't have tried to lift you up in the first place.


She's a good friend. I have been letting her vent to me over some issues in her life and trying to give advice where and when I could. Her father has Alzheimer's and she is having trouble dealing with it. It hurts her when he can't remember who she is.


Copper


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think you just described the perfect, classic codependent interaction.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

That was her way of reassuring herself that you are still committed to her / still love her. 

And you handled that just right. 

When you have your conversation - kick it off with:

You know how when you're upset - like last night - I listen - engage and support you? 

Tonight, I need you to do that for me. 

--------
Copper - what does she say when you ask her what she likes / dislikes about sex?

Because my guess is that the dislikes far outweigh the likes. Twice a year means her true preference is to never have sex. 

When you ask that question does she include: Likes that it makes YOU happy? 

This is the 'why' conversation. 

Because you can't negotiate frequency without understanding WHY she avoids it. 












CopperTop said:


> When I arrived home last night I could tell wife was tense and upset about something. My first thought was, "Ah, hell. I'm in for it now," after our talk the night before.
> 
> She said nothing about what was bothering her during our family time. So after dinner, as we cleaned up the kitchen, I asked her what was bothering her. It seemed like as good a way to start "the talk" as any.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think you just described the perfect, classic codependent interaction.


I had to look that up because I didn't know what it was. I don't think it applies to me. 

Do I feel good about myself when I do something nice for wife? Yes. But I also feel good about myself when I help Ann too, and there is no relationship there and never will be. I also like it when I bail a male friend out of trouble as well.

I find that if you pay kindness forward, good things usually follow. I helped a friend get his business on the web. I did it because it's what I'm good at and I enjoyed the challenge. He offered to pay and I refused. I had fun doing it for him. 

When I got ready to paint my car, I took it to him and asked him, "How much?" He did it for materials cost. I didn't expect that, and I actively discouraged him from doing that, but he said he wanted to as partial repayment for helping him out.

If you never do anything nice for someone, why would they ever want to do something for you? Listening to her rant about work cost me nothing. I wasn't seeking her approval. It had nothing to do with me. So why not do it?


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper - what does she say when you ask her what she likes / dislikes about sex?
> 
> Because my guess is that the dislikes far outweigh the likes. Twice a year means her true preference is to never have sex.
> 
> ...


I don't know why she doesn't like sex. The answers are soft and non-specific. It has been a long time since we discussed why. Reaching into the way-back machine, seems like she complained that it was uncomfortable, was sometimes painful (on her back and/or hip) and that she was tired. 

She also gives off this general disinterest about it. And don't forget, she dries quickly after peaking her last time, so there is something physical going on as well.

As an aside, she did agree to have a doctor check her out for any physical problems that would prevent sex. None were found.

At the risk of loosing my man-card, she react to sex the way I do to sports. I know they exist, I know a lot of people like them, but I just can't generate any enthusiasm about them and can't understand the big whoop-de-do about them. If I never saw another sport on television, that would suit me just fine, and I am only marginally more interest in playing one.

For likes, she likes the cuddle, but she is clear that the act is mostly for me. 

Here is a quote as near as I can remember it. The question was something along the lines of why can't we go more often? Her answer, "I just can't. My body won't let me." It seems like she may have said something along the lines of she wanted to, but I'm not sure. But what has stuck with me is the quote above.

I don't know if, or how, it figures in, but now that I have stopped pressuring her, she is much more willing to be held, etc. 


Copper


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Your attitude is that of a kind man. This is nothing to be ashamed of.

Most people will feel a moral obligation to reciprocate when you are kind to them.

However, some people will just take and never give back.

You have probably seen these people in a work environment. After a while, if you are smart, you learn not to help them out.

It is sad when you realize that you can keep giving, giving, giving to your spouse and she will keep taking, taking, taking and never give back.

I don't mean to imply that your entire marriage is reduced to this dynamic, but it is present to some degree.

How would you deal with a work colleague who is a taker? Can you apply some of that same logic to your relationship? Think of it as an effort at managing your relationship more effectively rather than a destructive revenge mindset.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Your attitude is that of a kind man. This is nothing to be ashamed of.
> 
> Most people will feel a moral obligation to reciprocate when you are kind to them.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. I also agree that on the scales of life, I am more of a giver and she is more of a taker. But it isn't totally lopsided.

As far as work? That's hard. There they PAY me to be a giver and I never say no. With my people, those that work for me, I do enforce a certain amount of "you will put out" (no pun intended) but like I told Anon Pink, it's very nearly a apples and oranges comparison for me. 

But I get your point, and I WILL be starting to set some boundaries. Loose one's to start with, but over time I hope to be able to tighten them up more and more.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> However, *some people will just take and never give back.*
> 
> ...
> 
> It is sad when you realize that you can keep giving, giving, giving to your spouse and she will keep taking, taking, taking and never give back...


I was hoping for a breakthrough after one of your most recent posts. That was certainly the tone you carried Copper. Upon disclosing that the great change was that you DIDN'T get the continued cold shoulder...and that's basically it, I guess I can't shake the feeling this is just your path until you decide to quit walking it. 

A final consideration for you Copper. Some people never leave their abusive spouse either, because they love them and they "didn't mean to do it". They wouldn't want to ruin an "otherwise great marriage" over getting a bit rough, or in the case of emotional abuse only "just some words". 

You're in good hands with MEM. Best of luck Copper.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Copper my man, why don't you follow my advice and get Ann to set you up with someone that's understands what your old lady is putting you through, and give you a shoulder to cry on? You're on here relieving stress and venting about what your wife has relegated you to. Think about how nice it would be to actually be talking with a lady or two, face to face, and getting their perspective. Haven't you found talking with Ann mollifying after being in this situation where your blatantly being short changed not only on the sexual front, but also used as a whipping boy when she has other problems? 
Think of it as one of the hobbies that brought you so much relief. I think you know it ain't gonna get no better on the home front.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I was hoping for a breakthrough after one of your most recent posts. That was certainly the tone you carried Copper. Upon disclosing that the great change was that you DIDN'T get the continued cold shoulder...and that's basically it, I guess I can't shake the feeling this is just your path until you decide to quit walking it.
> 
> A final consideration for you Copper. Some people never leave their abusive spouse either, because they love them and they "didn't mean to do it". They wouldn't want to ruin an "otherwise great marriage" over getting a bit rough, or in the case of emotional abuse only "just some words".
> 
> You're in good hands with MEM. Best of luck Copper.


Understood. But I have to walk before I can run. A year ago it might be days before she thawed, and even then we weren't hugging and kissing. So this IS progress.

Now it seems I can at least DISCUSS our problems.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

One thing that's true about this type of 'talk', is that less is more. 

You want to use the smallest number of words possible and ideally get her to open up. 

It's ok to say: We don't need to pretend with each other. You don't really like doing it. 

What I'm asking you to do - for me - because you love me and I take good care of you - is to talk to a therapist about WHY you don't like it. And maybe she can help you, or help me help you - get to the point where it feels right to you. 

This last bit - is what I would say - that doesn't mean it's right for you: 

If after getting help you find out that you like it - than once a week won't cause you to feel stressed or anxious. And once a week will have a huge positive impact on my quality of life. 

If, after a good faith effort you find that you can't get to a place where you want to - I'm not going to continue to press you to do something you really don't like. 

----------







CopperTop said:


> I don't know why she doesn't like sex. The answers are soft and non-specific. It has been a long time since we discussed why. Reaching into the way-back machine, seems like she complained that it was uncomfortable, was sometimes painful (on her back and/or hip) and that she was tired.
> 
> She also gives off this general disinterest about it. And don't forget, she dries quickly after peaking her last time, so there is something physical going on as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> One thing that's true about this type of 'talk', is that less is more.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

The more time you spend talking, the less time she has to talk. Sometimes a small amount of uncomfortable silence can prompt a person to say something they wouldn't otherwise.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Unfortunately, I think allowing her to feel a bit uncertain about you is the only thing that would cause her to snap out of her inertia.
> 
> I do not think you need to be overt, but I think you should not always be there for her the way you are now.


I said it already, but feel the need to say it again: uncertainty undermines trust, and lack of trust is the surest possible way to kill sex drive, as well as willingness to change.

Boundaries are better. They are clear, trustworthy, and make it easy to decide what is worth working on and what is worth letting go.

But uncertainty is just a big, cruel head game that will eventually erode all good feeling.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing Dawg. If Ann didn't care, she wouldn't have tried to lift you up in the first place.


I would agree that Ann cares about Copper, but the rest is nonsense. Women will often lift others up, offer reassuring words, encourage an optimistic and positive attitude.

It doesn't mean anything at all, other than they want that person to feel better about themselves or their situation.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I said it already, but feel the need to say it again: uncertainty undermines trust, and lack of trust is the surest possible way to kill sex drive, as well as willingness to change.
> 
> Boundaries are better. They are clear, trustworthy, and make it easy to decide what is worth working on and what is worth letting go.
> 
> But uncertainty is just a big, cruel head game that will eventually erode all good feeling.


I think that if uncertainty is the TRUTH, then it is not a head game at all. Copper is uncertain that he can live the rest of his life the way it is now. He is also uncertain that his wife will ever be able to change. The truth may be uncomfortable. Hiding the truth also gets him a non existent sex life and no change.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The more time you spend talking, the less time she has to talk. Sometimes a small amount of uncomfortable silence can prompt a person to say something they wouldn't otherwise.


A very powerful negotiation technique that I use often. I state what I want then shut up. I won't speak again until the other party does. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I would like to go on record and say that a guy telling a very close and trusted woman friend his ordeals in the bedroom may not always be the best idea. 

All day Ann called me every variation of stud, stud muffin, tiger, yummy, and probably twenty more, that you could imagine. I swear, I think she was looking them up on the internet. 


Copper


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing Dawg. If Ann didn't care, she wouldn't have tried to lift you up in the first place. Women don't try to lift up men they don't care about. They'll ignore them or even try to put them down more. (like the chick take told you you'd make a good husband but wouldn't be fun to date. It wasn't an accident she phrased it like like) You've been around that iceburg you've been married, and some like her, to so long you're judging all other women by her. Remember that girls that are into you often are teasing, and playful.
> Reconsider talking with Ann about introducing you to some girls you can talk to. You need a break from that toxic environment for your own good. Don't worry about all kinds of questions that you just as soon not have asked. You're always in control and your just having a sympathetic ear with a person you don't have to feel like, "Ah, hell. I'm in for it now,". You really don't have a lot to lose my man.


I agree with CopperTop. Phoenix's suggestions are a recipe for an Emotional Affair. If you were to feel that such a relationship is the right course, may as well just proceed to divorce. It would be more authentic / honest way to go.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Boundary: I will not stay in a sexless marriage where there is no effort being made to address the underlying issues.

Head game: I might divorce you if you don't do XYZ

Grown ups figure out their boundaries first and speak second. 

Bullies threaten and then either prevail or retreat. Leaving a trail of broken glass beneath their feet...





always_alone said:


> I said it already, but feel the need to say it again: uncertainty undermines trust, and lack of trust is the surest possible way to kill sex drive, as well as willingness to change.
> 
> Boundaries are better. They are clear, trustworthy, and make it easy to decide what is worth working on and what is worth letting go.
> 
> But uncertainty is just a big, cruel head game that will eventually erode all good feeling.


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Copper Top,

You seem like such a wonderful man. I hope your wife gets her act together. Since your wife is so adverse to blow jobs, hand jobs and masturbation; how does she expect you to be a healthy man if you never get to orgasm.

There are so many health benefits you're missing out on. As a woman, I just don't understand the aversion to oral sex. Giving is an incredibly powerful thing, and getting it is even better than PIV sex in my opinion. 

Has your wife considered bariatric surgery? It seems like it might be the only way.

As someone who has a tendancy to gain a bit of weight, I would absolutely hate it if my husband was my coach. You need to step away from her dieting. If she wants to do it she will. The description you give of your wifes food intake is way off. I guarentee she is packing in the goodies when she is not with you. There is no way she could be 5'5" and 300 pounds by simple bad choices.

There are many good bariatric facilities out there. It may be a life saver in addition to a mariiage saver!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> A very powerful negotiation technique that I use often. I state what I want then shut up. I won't speak again until the other party does.



Except in a negotiation it is rare that one of the two parties holds all the cards. In a negotiation nothing gained - nothing lost if I walk away from my favorite sales rep...

(memo to sales person: do you really want to show this much skin at 8 months pregnant with twins? Memo to Dr. John's boss: BOB WE NEED THE EYE TRACKER!!! Memo to Dr. John: the twins are doing great and I have 200 people working under me....)


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Copper Top,
> 
> You seem like such a wonderful man. I hope your wife gets her act together. Since your wife is so adverse to blow jobs, hand jobs and masturbation; how does she expect you to be a healthy man if you never get to orgasm.


For sake of honesty... I can't say NEVER. Sometimes everything happens as it should. Just not every time... Maybe 1 out of 5, something like that. I haven't been keeping track.





Workathome said:


> There are so many health benefits you're missing out on. As a woman, I just don't understand the aversion to oral sex. Giving is an incredibly powerful thing, and getting it is even better than PIV sex in my opinion.


What's your phone number? I'll have her call you. 

I don't understand it either. If I were pressed, I would guess this and the fact that I can't recall her using foul language, ever, may be related. Maybe. Or maybe not.





Workathome said:


> Has your wife considered bariatric surgery? It seems like it might be the only way.
> 
> As someone who has a tendancy to gain a bit of weight, I would absolutely hate it if my husband was my coach. You need to step away from her dieting. If she wants to do it she will. The description you give of your wifes food intake is way off. I guarentee she is packing in the goodies when she is not with you. There is no way she could be 5'5" and 300 pounds by simple bad choices.


We have looked into it. Another one of those things that she never seems to make a move on. 

Maybe coach isn't the right word. I don't tell her, "Eat this, don't eat that. Do this many minutes on the cardio machine." Loosing weight is dead simple. I didn't say easy, I said simple, and everyone knows how. Calories consumed - calories burned = weight loss or gain. She knows this. 

What I do is encourage her to eat properly and exercise by walking the dog with me. But MOSTLY what I do is cheer her on when she does well, and encourage her on when she has a slip.

The bulk of the weight, probably 90% of it came in child birth. She put on a lot of weight with the first, didn't loose it, put on a LOT more with the second, and didn't loose that either. 

Since then, 15 years ago, her weight has been, more or less, stable. I would guess up maybe 20-30 pounds.

The fact is, when she works at it, she looses weight. She is just overwhelmed sometimes with how far she has to go, and I try to keep her positive about it. That is what I meant when I said I am her coach.





Workathome said:


> There are many good bariatric facilities out there. It may be a life saver in addition to a mariiage saver!


I agree. But what I also know, if she can do it on her OWN, she will feel like a real winner. She could use that boost. 


Copper


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Coop All I can say is you seem to get most everything.

If it were only your issue ,not how C2 issues affect you ,you would have this solved 99%

People only change if they have to

I'm not there so it's simple to say you are enabling her .

Very high tight rope you are walking.

Get off that tight rope....Get on solid ground.

Stay kind loving and compassionate.

But establish your boundaries and hold your ground.

At some point C2 needs to consider your happiness.

If she is unwilling or unable to, I guess you have heard life is too short .

55


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> The fact is, when she works at it, she looses weight. She is just overwhelmed sometimes with how far she has to go, and I try to keep her positive about it. That is what I meant when I said I am her coach.


One other thing. In the last year, but especially in the last three months or so, since the first of the year, her mood and attitude has improved a lot. 

I had become totally apathetic and had stopped trying to seduce her. I had decided that I was stuck and I just had to live with it. But in the past year she has become more affectionate and positive.

This weight loss try was her idea. I didn't suggest it, but one day I noticed she was eating better and she was bumping me off the cardio machine. A bump I was glad to accept.

Then she started walking the dog with me. And we talked as we walked. She is getting stronger and doesn't tire as quickly. She can do the entire 1.25 miles now without a stop, and the first time she made it, I told her I KNEW she could do it and how proud of her I was.

She is down about 12 pounds. When she expresses frustration that it isn't more, I point how to her how that is about a pound a week, a nice steady, healthy rate of loss. 

But most importantly, SHE started this on her own. Most other times, maybe every other time, I think maybe she did it because I wanted her to loose weight. 

She is changing, and for the better. I just need to keep the improvements coming. It's like weight loss... slow and steady... a healthy improvement that will last a lifetime.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> Coop All I can say is you seem to get most everything.
> 
> If it were only your issue ,not how C2 issues affect you ,you would have this solved 99%
> 
> ...


Yes. I don't want to be a boiled frog any more.


Copper


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

always_alone said:


> It doesn't mean anything at all, other than they want that person to feel better about themselves or their situation.





CopperTop said:


> All day Ann called me every variation of stud, stud muffin, tiger, yummy, and probably twenty more, that you could imagine. I swear, I think she was looking them up on the internet.
> Copper


Res ipsa loquitur. Don't sell me short Always. And Copper, go ahead and see if she has girlfriends you can talk to. Remember my man, in your talks with other girls, you ain't giving them anything she hasn't already rejected.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Res ipsa loquitur. Don't sell me short Always. And Copper, go ahead and see if she has girlfriends you can talk to. Remember my man, in your talks with other girls, you ain't giving them anything she hasn't already rejected.


Thank you for the advice, but I can't follow through. I'm AFRAID to follow through.

First, I'm not certain Ann actually had friends to introduce me too. The implication in her comment was she had single friends. I suspect that her friends would be near her age, and therefore married or in a committed relationship. I think her comment was 75% said to build me up and to lighten the mood, 25% that she was actually serious.

Secondly, with Ann I am comfortable. We both know nothing is going to happen... and if I WERE to forget myself, we both know she would slap me so hard my KIDS ears would ring. Plus, in all reality, we are just workmates. With a few exceptions, most of our conversations are no more deep than you might have with a person you just met while standing in line.

But this other thing is scary. Even if it is just lunch, it shades uncomfortably close to a date. Especially if the friend is single. I just don't want to go there. It just feels wrong to be talking to a single woman, a woman that I have no other connection with, when I have a wife at home. That seems to me to be the first step on a path I really don't want to walk. 

I have no idea why women like men in the first place. Where women are warm, soft, curvy and smell nice, men are all lumpy and hairy. I believe that I am strong enough to not make the first move, but I'm not sure I'm strong enough to resist if she were. I'm not saying it would even happen and I have no idea where I fall on the male beauty scale. I would consider myself average, but I am willing to admit that would be giving myself too much credit. 

But if it WERE to happen... it has been so long since I have felt wanted like that I fear that I wouldn't have the strength to back away. Better to not have the temptation. 

Phoenix, I will grant you that your idea has appeal. But I'm afraid I'm too weak to handle it properly. The only thing holding me together some days is that I like myself. But if I were to do this, then cave in to my weakness, I wouldn't have even that anymore.

Thank you for your concern and suggestion, but I can't take the chance.


Copper


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

FlowerChild said:


> I do have a few suggestions.
> 1. Do NOT under ANY circumstance have an affair. Eventually she WILL find out and that will ruin any progress, and make everything worse, probably permanently. You also will not be able to live with yourself.
> 2. Do NOT threaten to leave - and then not leave. That is playing games, and it is cruel. (I will however suggest honesty). Maybe sit her down, and say " Sweet-heart, I don't know if I can continue staying in a sexless marriage. I am not saying I'm leaving, but I have exhausted every option only to fail. If all I cared about is sex, I would have left a long time ago. I love you and I miss our physical intimacy. I feel like our marriage is one sided because as far as I'm concerned, all your needs are being met, but mine are not. I would really appreciate it if you could give counseling a try. "
> 
> 3. Don't meet up with other women. You will set yourself up for a lot of disappointment and damage. I am saying this because I read every post in this thread and am personally appalled at some people's suggestions.


So basically my girl, the bottom line of your suggestions are for him seems to be to keep doing what he's been doing. I submit the reason you have the hot marriage you have is because you're wild about your husband. Is that not true?


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Phoenix, I will grant you that your idea has appeal. But I'm afraid I'm too weak to handle it properly. The only thing holding me together some days is that I like myself. But if I were to do this, then cave in to my weakness, I wouldn't even that anymore.
> 
> Thank you for your concern and suggestion, but I can't take the chance.
> Copper


When you're ready Dawg, IM me. I'll be your wingman.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah - the voice of a kindred spirit. 

This post resonates - 100 percent - with me. 

I acknowledge my weakness - therein lies my strength. 

I stay away from women who are actively hunting - because you the pheromone darts they shoot - kind of sneak up on you. 

M2 and I - at our worst - were in the same situation as you: still loved each other, still respected and trusted each other. 

We were - afraid - of each other (not physically), but that's often a solvable problem. 

You still love C2. By definition that means she does a lot of things right in the marriage. 

And from what you described she is making a genuine effort.




CopperTop said:


> Thank you for the advice, but I can't follow through. I'm AFRAID to follow through.
> 
> First, I'm not certain Ann actually had friends to introduce me too. The implication in her comment was she had single friends. I suspect that her friends would be near her age, and therefore married or in a committed relationship. I think her comment was 75% said to build me up and to lighten the mood, 25% that she was actually serious.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

FlowerChild said:


> I am saying this because I read every post in this thread and am personally appalled at some people's suggestions.


Don't be appalled. Remember, I'm just a faceless entity on the other side of their computer screen. They don't know me and they have no body language to read. There is no way for anyone to know if I am a troll, simply here to stir the poo, if I am lying, or anything else. 

Everyone is giving the best advice that they can. To be honest, I can see merit in nearly everything they have said. I won't say that all the advice was right for me, but I can see where with certain personality types, and in certain situations, where their advice could work.

I want to take this opportunity to say, as unequivocally as I can, THANK YOU to each and every person that has taken the time out of their day to try to help me, a perfect stranger. That is a tremendous kindness and I am grateful. I think it speaks very highly of the people here.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

FlowerChild said:


> I am wild about my husband, yes, but after a while, I was bored. We had a child, I was exhausted frequently and lost interest in sex. It felt like another chore. But my husband wanted it. So I did it. In my mind, it wasn't going to hurt, if anything once we got into the act, I would get into it and wouldn't regret going for it. I said yes almost all the time because I knew if I didn't, he would become unhappy/unsatisfied. I didn't want to be selfish.
> Then after a while of continuously saying " sure! " I became interested in it all over again. It felt good.
> That wouldn't have happened if I said no, no, no. Or kept making excuses not to. Some excuses are legit obviously but after 20 years of excuses...


And this is my fault in all of this. After the birth of our first, I allowed the lack of sex to continue. I had been warned that her lack of sex drive was a normal and expected side effect of having children. At some point, I should have put my foot down, and I didn't. 

My situation isn't all my fault, but I certainly share in the blame.





FlowerChild said:


> Anyways. I really don't know what more he can do. I did think he should leave because it's been 20 years of his needs not being met. I did think to myself " wow, this poor man is going to live the rest of his life without his needs being met. That's no way to live. " so obviously I could suggest leaving.
> 
> But the woman also threatened to take him for everything she could. He would lose almost everything. I hope she said that out of fear, but still saying that in general is sick. That's a level of emotional abuse and manipulation.


It could also be lashing out in fear. Did it hurt? Yes. But some people do that. Do I think she is serious? I'm not sure. Maybe. I have this feeling that she would see that as a repudiation of her and yes, she might seek vengeance in the only way she could. The only way to find out is to file, and I don't want to do that. Not until there is no glimmer of hope.





FlowerChild said:


> Copper is trapped. She's not willing to go to counseling, always has an excuse not to have sex, doesn't care to help the marriage because SHE'S fine with it the way it is. BUT, if he leaves, he would lose a lot.
> 
> Copper, your lawyer said to stick it out, correct? How long did he say to stick it out? The rest of your life? Until one of you dies?


She didn't say. I think the implication is AT LEAST until the children are adults. That removes the child support. Obviously, if Wife dies, one issue resolves itself, but then I have a different problem. 





FlowerChild said:


> I fail to have constructive advice. Everyone has given you advice, you have exhausted all your options but nothing is working. All I can suggest is leaving. It almost seems silly to say because your wife is, as you say, nice, loving, warm, etc. (I personally don't agree that she's as nice as you make her seem) not because she doesn't have sex with you, but because she's selfish. Incredibly selfish. A kind of selfish that I can't even comprehend.
> 
> But yes, she seems great in all other ways, except your needs are not being met.
> 
> ...


No need to feel sorry. Part of this is my fault. I helped make this bed. I am still working toward counseling. 

And I understand that this is a tough problem to solve. If it were easy, after twenty years, I think I would have solved it, even if it were by accident.


Copper


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> There is no way for anyone to know if I am a troll, simply here to stir the poo, if I am lying, or anything else.
> Copper


Could be my man, but there are plenty around that are walking in shoes similar to what you've been describing; both male and female.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

C2 and I talked some last night. I used the advice and insights that MEM gave me. It went about like you would expect. 

I didn't back away, but I did block and defend, turning her comments and accusations back on her. We have had this conversation many times in the past. 

But this time I didn't try to protect her feelings. I softened my words as much as I possibly could, but I stood my ground and told her the truth. No white lies. 

She said some things that made me sad. Accusations that she should, and I suspect does, know are not true. But I didn't react, I just blocked and defended, showing her how my actions were speaking much louder than her words.

I sat no boundries last night. I just wanted to open the dialog. I stated my desires clearly (counseling) and gave her the carrot (make our marriage stronger and better).

When we went to bed, I got there first and got in on her side of the bed. She wanted me to move, but I refused. She says sleeping on her right side is the only comfortable position. By being on her side of the bed, she would have to either admit she could rest on her other side or she would have to face me. 

When she finally got into bed, she lay facing me. I pulled her into an embrace, a cuddle, allowing her to use my body in place of the pillow she normally tucks under her knee. She tried, briefly, to back out of it, but she didn't struggle hard and I held her until she stopped. 

I said nothing, even when I could feel her tears dripping on me. I just held her. I felt so sad. After a few minutes she went to sleep and I held her for a couple of hours, until I couldn't stand it any more. I was melting from her body heat, and every time I would try to pull back the linens for some air, she would pull them back up. 

I finally had to wake her and we returned to our normal positions in the bed. I don't know what tonight will bring. I will try again tonight, this time showing her the stick (we are continuing this way no longer). But I'm hurting her and that makes me so very sad. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Could be my man, but there are plenty around that are walking in shoes similar to what you've been describing; both male and female.


I know. 

I know I'm not a troll, but there is no way for anyone else to know. That's why I don't get upset by the slings and arrows that were tossed my way. 


Copper


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Dude! Stop thinking you're hurting her. You're doing this 'for' her, not to her. Growth is sometimes painful in the short term. Get over it.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Dude! Stop thinking you're hurting her. You're doing this 'for' her, not to her. Growth is sometimes painful in the short term. Get over it.


I am hurting her. It may be like medicine, where you have to endure some discomfort before you can improve. But that doesn't mean I have to like doing it. 

This is why I could never be a doctor. I might be able to do the hard and right thing, but I would never be able to detach myself from it.


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Dude! Stop thinking you're hurting her. You're doing this 'for' her, not to her. Growth is sometimes painful in the short term. Get over it.



If you think you're hurting her you can't begin to comprehend the marital warfare that J2 and myself have gone they the last few years .

Detachment occurred a couple years ago and since then i truly don't care what happens to her. The worse the better. Karma...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

I wouldn't hit her with another talk tonight. Nor would I go out of my way to be soothing. Not by touch - not by word. Give her a couple days to process and come back to you. 

And let her feel anxious - without explicitly stating a boundary because YOU and SHE will both feel much better about this if you can get where you want to be without you having to do that. 

What's a few more days - after 20 years. 

Be prepared for her to seek reassurance. Maybe by complaining about her day - maybe by asking you to do something for her. 

Painful as it will be - gently decline. Ideally - minimize the time you are in the same room. 

A boundary - no matter how diplomatically stated - is an explicit threat to divorce. It is. And in the power dynamic of a marriage - it's quite fairly called: the nuclear option

What I'm suggesting is a couple days of you letting her experience a dry run of what a Copperless life will be like. 









CopperTop said:


> C2 and I talked some last night. I used the advice and insights that MEM gave me. It went about like you would expect.
> 
> I didn't back away, but I did block and defend, turning her comments and accusations back on her. We have had this conversation many times in the past.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> If you think you're hurting her you can't begin to comprehend the marital warfare that J2 and myself have gone they the last few years .
> 
> Detachment occurred a couple years ago and since then i truly don't care what happens to her. The worse the better. Karma...


I don't understand. I would consider my marriage OK, maybe even good. The only real sticking point is our sex life. Yes, it's a big point, but it is still just the one. 

If it is so bad, why do you stay? I read these horror stories here and I just shake my head and thank what ever divine being there may be that I don't have to deal with THAT! 

I know everyone thinks I'm nothing but a place for C2 to wipe her feet, but long term drug abuse, repeated infidelity, long term, unremitting misery, etc... the only sign of me would be the vapor trail.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> I wouldn't hit her with another talk tonight. Nor would I go out of my way to be soothing. Not by touch - not by word. Give her a couple days to process and come back to you.


Understood. Did I mess up last night?





MEM11363 said:


> And let her feel anxious - without explicitly stating a boundary because YOU and SHE will both feel much better about this if you can get where you want to be without you having to do that.
> 
> What's a few more days - after 20 years.


Another few days is nothing. I'm glad you suggested this. I really DIDN'T want to state the boundary tonight. I wasn't going to mention the dreaded "D" word, only that we weren't going to continue like this. But the implication would clearly have be there.





MEM11363 said:


> Be prepared for her to seek reassurance. Maybe by complaining about her day - maybe by asking you to do something for her.
> 
> Painful as it will be - gently decline. Ideally - minimize the time you are in the same room.


Got it. But let me point out something I haven't mentioned before in case it changes the dynamics of what you suggest. 

C2 is heavily involved in online gaming. She has many friends that she likes to talk to and she spends several hours every night online. While she does that, this is usually when I write, in another room, where it is quiet and I can concentrate. 

So it's not exactly like we are falling all over each other all the time anyway.

<EDIT>
What about our dog walk? Go or no go? I doubt she will walk if I don't walk with her. And not walking when she could has lots of other negative repercussions. 
</EDIT>





MEM11363 said:


> A boundary - no matter how diplomatically stated - is an explicit threat to divorce. It is. And in the power dynamic of a marriage - it's quite fairly called: the nuclear option
> 
> What I'm suggesting is a couple days of you letting her experience a dry run of what a Copperless life will be like.


Understood. I'm not quite sure how to extract myself if she comes to me for something simple, like wanting to talk to me about her day. To not listen when I obviously can (no other pressing issues, like work calling) would be totally out of character for me, but I will handle it as best I can.


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Copper,

It's not bad for me. I'm the hardened one. She's the needy one. I tried and tried but no luck. Some things are not fixable. You need to accept that. 

I know what every neuron in my wife's head is doing. I know that regardless of what I do I may get - at best - a trivial return for a huge effort. Your wife may be thinking along the same lines.

In her mind what's her incentive for losing weight and having a fulfilling life? At 55 and 30 lb over I got into cycling last May. Lost about 10 lb first season and kept most of it off thru hibernation. Now I can't wait to get on the trail again. I do it for me - not to change my wife or hit on my secret crush - -not yet- but for me and my peace of mind. She needs to think that way.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

You did great last night. You said what's what and then you comforted. 

You are right about the walk - that is part of an important pattern. Stay the course. 

So - here's the thing. Most couples have some type of request / response dynamic that is driven more by emotion than practicality. 

The single most difficult thing about your situation is this: As long as you continue that normal, emotionally supportive pattern, it will be hard for C2 to believe - deep down where it matters - that you mean what you say about your boundary. 

So the idea is to break that pattern - without being cruel or jerky. 







CopperTop said:


> Understood. Did I mess up last night?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> You did great last night. You said what's what and then you comforted.
> 
> ...



Okay. Got it. Thanks.

I feel like a sapper here. One wrong move and *BANG!*


Copper


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Okay. Got it. Thanks.
> 
> I feel like a sapper here. One wrong move and *BANG!*
> 
> ...


Don't get hoist with your own petard.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't get hoist with your own petard.


Let's leave my petard out of this, okay?

Oh, wait, that's a bomb. Never mind.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Copper,
> 
> It's not bad for me. I'm the hardened one. She's the needy one. I tried and tried but no luck. Some things are not fixable. You need to accept that.
> 
> ...


I understand. I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes. It sounds... dreadful.

I agree with your last paragraph. I'm hoping, because SHE started this weight loss regime without me pushing on her, she will actually stick to it this time. Maybe she is finally beginning to hear the tick of the clock.

If she can just stick to the current rate of loss, (one or two pounds a week) in three years she will be back to about where she was when we were married. Curvy, but in all the right ways.

That would be AWESOME!


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's not like that. 

This is only about one thing. The golden rule. You handling this situation the way you'd want it handled in reverse. 

You do that - and whatever happens - happens. 

The goal here is to jolt C2 into reality - without being cruel. 

If she's as smart as I think, there will come a moment she looks you in the eye and says: 

You're going to leave me - and you will easily repartner. I'm going to be alone. 

---------
Now it turns out the answer to that statement is related to the catalyst for this situation. 
---------
Copper: You should find a good friend to be room mates with. It won't be much different than our marriage.





CopperTop said:


> Okay. Got it. Thanks.
> 
> I feel like a sapper here. One wrong move and *BANG!*
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not sorry - we had 25 good years and then a perfect storm hit us. I spent 5 years trying to "fix" the situation. It's not your simple "wife not into sex" type reason. Lots more. But hey, she's pulling six figures, is a good cook... And our daughters are getting head of state quality education. 

The last two years - since I joined TAM - I decided I'm out. We have our good days, our indifferent days, and the rare bad days. Sex is not the driver - there's other things involved.. 

In 26 months I'm out. Again we had good times and I'll leave it at that.


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

FlowerChild said:


> ...
> His needs aren't being met, hers are, so she fails to see where the problem is.
> 
> ...Some excuses are legit obviously but after 20 years of excuses...
> ...


You captured the basic problem here.
You elaborated well.

Two problems:

1.) Her reaction, while defended by him, smacks more to what some of us see as a sign of selfishness from her. Further, she would not take "everything". The old saying is why is divorce expensive: because it's worth it. That may or may not be the case, but vindictiveness from her regarding him getting his needs met is simply another symptom of the problem (as I see it, that she really doesn't CARE about his needs or wants).

2.) He _HAS NOT_ exhausted all of his options. He has rejected most of them. While he has taken some verbal steps, he still hasn't really branched outside of their standard dynamic. Here's hoping he continues on the path, but let's be clear. There are a great many options still available. 

His various reactions lead me to believe that he's either been abused long enough to feel bad about having his own desires (Stockholm syndrome?), or accepts his "fate" as a product of his own decisions and doesn't have the strength to fight it.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> This is only about one thing. The golden rule. You handling this situation the way you'd want it handled in reverse.


I'm trying. But the Golden Rule is part of what got me into this mess. She and I don't always respond to the same stimuli in the same way. 

That's the thing I have to watch out for, giving her a push to move her one way, and have her move in another.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> His various reactions lead me to believe that he's either been abused long enough to feel bad about having his own desires (Stockholm syndrome?), or accepts his "fate" as a product of his own decisions and doesn't have the strength to fight it.


Closer to the second, I think, than the first.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

ET1,

I disagree. This is a guy who's done the analysis and is beginning to execute a plan. 

The fact that he's being measured, careful - is to his credit. 

I have every confidence that Copper - will do what needs doing - at a pace that makes sense to him. 






ET1SSJonota said:


> You captured the basic problem here.
> You elaborated well.
> 
> Two problems:
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> ET1,
> 
> I disagree. This is a guy who's done the analysis and is beginning to execute a plan.
> 
> ...


Oh wow! I got a gold star from teacher! 

Thanks!


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

While you're at it you may consider the difference between no sex, ABC sex, or MMSL sex (Anniversary, Birthday, and Christmas / Merchant Marine Sex Life)

You may find that restarting sex isn't all that difficult. ABC is not difficult to obtain. MMSL is not too difficult either. The catch is to arrive at something a bit more frequent but without coercion, threat of doom, etc.

Whether you currently move at a race car pace or snails pace is irrelevant because you will need to figure out what she is able and willing to provide. Physically as well as emotionally. 

I know it's a bit cold hearted and calculating to look at people only via their SAT scores but ultimately that brings the marriage together - or blows it up. It's all a numbers game. And you won't know her numbers till you figure out why she's the way she is.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> While you're at it you may consider the difference between no sex, ABC sex, or MMSL sex (Anniversary, Birthday, and Christmas / Merchant Marine Sex Life)
> 
> You may find that restarting sex isn't all that difficult. ABC is not difficult to obtain. MMSL is not too difficult either. The catch is to arrive at something a bit more frequent but without coercion, threat of doom, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't know what MMSL is. I'm guessing a lot of sex in bursts, then long periods of abstinence. 

I suspect if I hadn't given up the pursuit, we would still be in the ABC mode that we were in before. But that isn't going to fly for long. I didn't like it then, and I won't like it in the future. 

If I can get her moving in the right direction, I don't think I will stop pushing until I hit at least once a week. But I'm patient and I don't have to go directly from what I have to everything I want in one jump.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

This is HARD!

Normally, C2 puts gas in her own car, but every now and again, she will say, "I will have to put gas in the car before I go to work in the morning." That is a nice way of suggesting that I go fill her car up for her, and normally, I do. 

It's less than 5 minutes to the filling station that we use and I use it as a way to quickly check the car for any signs that it needs service before its normally scheduled service. Any strange noises? Brakes working okay? That sort of thing.

Tonight, I said, "Okay," and left it at that. But I wanted to go fill her car up. It feels like I'm shirking. 


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 has a list of similar type comments.

If we are in the midst of conflict - I am deaf to them. I don't like that - but it's highly effective. 

For many women - acts of service - are comparable to how men view sex. 

And like C2, M2 doesn't ask. She simply says something like:

Are you hot?
Translation: I'm hot, would you turn the fan on?






CopperTop said:


> This is HARD!
> 
> Normally, C2 puts gas in her own car, but every now and again, she will say, "I will have to put gas in the car before I go to work in the morning." That is a nice way of suggesting that I go fill her car up for her, and normally, I do.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MMSL is actually a play on one of the well known DIY books (MMSLP).

You may find that scaling up to the universal constant of 1x a month is relatively simple but then, just like the sound barrier in aviation, things get a lot more challenging.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> M2 has a list of similar type comments.
> 
> If we are in the midst of conflict - I am deaf to them. I don't like that - but it's highly effective.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> MMSL is actually a play on one of the well known DIY books (MMSLP).
> 
> You may find that scaling up to the universal constant of 1x a month is relatively simple but then, just like the sound barrier in aviation, things get a lot more challenging.


Normally, I would say I like a challenge. But this may be more than I can handle.

Frustration level: HIGH.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

What a crappy way to end the evening.

As we were preparing for bed, C2 came to me and asked, "Are you mad?"

"No. Why do you ask?"

"You just seem... different. Like something is bothering you."

"No. Nothing that hasn't been bothering me for years."

At this point she sighed, that long put upon sigh she has when she thinks I'm being stubborn or unreasonable. She returned to the bathroom to finish getting ready.

When she came to bed, she snuggled in close and started touching. I can't remember the last time she came on to me. It has to have been at least ten years. But the change is too fast. This was too easy. I took her hand and held it to my chest.

"What are you doing?" I asked. I suppose I sounded like an idiot, and perhaps the better question would have been why, but anyway I said what I said.

"What do you think?"

"But why?"

"Isn't it what you want? Isn't that what this is all about?"

At this point I had to do some quick thinking and I'm not sure I did the right thing. I asked, "Why are you doing this?"

"Because you want to."

"Is that the only reason?"

She stammered around a little so I just cut her off. "It's what I want, but only if you want to. I don't want you doing it just because I want to."

Then she started in on me. How no matter what she does, it's not good enough. How I'm never satisfied. I didn't say a word and I let her have her say. When she got done busting my chops I simply asked, "Is it too much to ask to want my wife to make love to me?"

She flopped over and turned out the light. The temperature in the room had dropped ten degrees so I got up and left the bed before I got frostbite. 

I'll give her a few minutes to go to sleep then I will go back to bed. But I'm wondering if I shouldn't have just taken the <fornicating> and run with it. 


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Dawg, to describe what youre hoping for as a challenge is like calling F5 tornadoes whirlwinds. You and I both know next year is going to be a repeat of the last several years.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Dawg, to describe what youre hoping for as a challenge is like calling F5 tornadoes whirlwinds. You and I both know next year is going to be a repeat of the last several years.


Thank you so much! My own personal ray of sunshine! 


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

Gentle suggestion. Tomorrow morning apologize. 

What I would say is this: 

You were acting out of genuine kindness last night and I Was completely out of line. That won't happen again. I really am sorry. 

---------
Notice - to create empathy you had a sincere conversation AND declined a single 'do you love me' type service request. You produced an excellent result without ANY aggression or threats. Take a BOW. 
---------

But - I'm going to tell you now - one reason my physical relationship with M2 is so good is because I NEVER give her grief about not being as horny as I am. 

C2 MIGHT have gotten turned on as you played last night. 

And just for reference: I recall M2 being horny at the start ONE time last year. 

We connected about 100 times.

- I initiated twice, she initiated all the rest
- All but one of those were responsive desire
- She maybe comes half the time (not due to a lack of effort on my part - the nights she doesn't - she says - babe I can't get there tonight)

If I responded poorly to her lower level of desire, it would demoralize her. It would also be cruel - she doesn't directly control how she FEELS. She only controls what she DOES. 






CopperTop said:


> What a crappy way to end the evening.
> 
> As we were preparing for bed, C2 came to me and asked, "Are you mad?"
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WTF? 

C2 initiated. It was a sincere initiation. That is huge progress. 





QUOTE=ThePheonix;12006601]Dawg, to describe what youre hoping for as a challenge is like calling F5 tornadoes whirlwinds. You and I both know next year is going to be a repeat of the last several years.[/QUOTE]


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> She stammered around a little so I just cut her off. "It's what I want, but only if you want to. I don't want you doing it just because I want to."
> 
> Then she started in on me. How no matter what she does, it's not good enough. How I'm never satisfied. I didn't say a word and I let her have her say. When she got done busting my chops I simply asked, "Is it too much to ask to want my wife to make love to me?"
> 
> She flopped over and turned out the light. The temperature in the room had dropped ten degrees so I got up and left the bed before I got frostbite.


I would've reacted the same way. I mean, what do you want from her? Here she is *trying* to respond to your needs and you're pushing her away. 

What possible motivation will she have for change if you're just going to reject her all along the way?

You can't go from 0-60 just like that.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> WTF?
> 
> C2 initiated. It was a sincere initiation. That is huge progress.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to c1 rejecting her because she only did it because she knew he wanted it when what he wants is for her to want it. If she's really LD then that's hoping too much. And if she's really LD then the tornado/whirlwind comparison may be just a bit off, more like tornado/zephyr.

So C1, what the hell man? You're not going to get her there by rejecting her when she tries to give you what you're asking for. Cripes, do you think she's going to risk rejection again? Don't turn her down!

I'm mostly staying out of this because I think you're getting what you need from Mem, but I have one thing I can give you that you need:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> C2 initiated. It was a sincere initiation. That is huge progress.



The operative word is "repeatable". Falling for it on occasion will only lead to ABC / MMSL. 

I would advise on encouraging non sexual touch and building up the "trust" factor rather than going for it on her assumption that's (all) he wants.

I've had the same experience and it took me a while to understand that it's not about X, but about X+1...


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> ET1,
> 
> I disagree.


I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate MEM. I wasn't implying he actually has Stockholm's, just the similarity. And as of yet, while he is taking some action, it doesn't appear to be anything outside of his normal milieu. He does spend a lot of time pleading ignorance for or generally absolving his wife. 

I know by now you're most likely ignoring what I have to say Copper, but I think you tremendously messed up in your response tonight. Feel free to ignore, pass on, but here is some reasoning for you if you're interested.

Firstly, I've gone through the "pity sex" feeling routine, and while my case, again, was nowhere near as severe as you, one poster (Racer, IIRC) hit me with some words that I'll try to repeat. Basically, if what we call "pity" or "duty" sex is all that our spouses are willing to give us, then why would you turn that down? Is it "everything" you want? No. But might it be everything your partner could bring at that time? YES. And while the implied driver is coercion, it's equally likely that their actual motivator is love, caring, and concern for the relationship. Why would you play "judge" over their inner motivation? (This is relatively a moot point in those instances in which the SO basically flops on the bed, undresses, and say "ok get it over with")

Second, while the verbal swordsmanship has been limited, it has been somewhat different than your description of past interactions. Further, after only a short while of what might be called "pestering" in your vocabulary, not only did she acquiesce, but she actually took the extraordinary step for a LD partner and INITIATED. For someone who suggests that baby steps in this long war are your way to go to keep from alienating her, you missed the boat here. In effect, while exaggerated to some degree, you basically just told her that you won't accept anything less than her grinding her hips against you in desire (at least that is how she likely took it). 

Recall your discussions about her weight loss and how the true killer was the daunting task, the enormity of the transition required. You just did that with her view of the sex issue. Instead of something maybe she was willing to work up to, now it's an all or nothing. Cold fish to sex goddess, if you would.

Another way to look at it: the filling the car with gas. You did that out of caring and love. You certainly don't get any joy out of filling the car with gas. And you certainly didn't spontaneously burst with desire to go fill the car of your own accord at that exact moment. But it is still a sign of love and affection that you will undergo that effort. And it doesn't hurt or take away from you to go do it. Apply that same standard to her attempts at improving the intimacy. 

Here's how I might have dealt with the situation:



CopperTop said:


> ...
> When she came to bed, she snuggled in close and started touching. I can't remember the last time she came on to me. It has to have been at least ten years. But the change is too fast. *This was too easy*…


Now she *has* to be a challenge? She actually takes the action most would say a reasonable spouse would take under the conditions (hell, WAY before these conditions occurred), and you're suspicious?

I would have let the kissing, and maybe some touching occur. Somewhere past initiation, but before any heavy "petting". In there I would pause, and affirm/praise:

"C2, I love your lips and the feelings it gives me when we are intimate like this. You (We) are so amazing (together)!"

Then go back to the foreplay. Proceed on. BEFORE the actual "deed" is done:

"C2, I have really enjoyed tonight, BUT, I want this to be mutual. While I love everything about our closeness and intimacy, I don't want to feel like I'm forcing you. I love/appreciate you showing me that you are willing to give me the things that I crave, and if you want, we can just cuddle and go to sleep now."

Unless absolutely unbelievable, go with whatever her response is here. I would have considered this approach "baby steps". You got some intimacy, she took steps, you gave positive re-enforcement to those positive steps, and in the end her desires were taken into consideration. Sounds like an all around win to me.

One other thought I had along the "duty sex" line is this: Many women actually LIKE pleasing their man and not being in it for themselves at all (and the same goes for many men). This is the essence of the NSA BJ/ HJ/ Cunnilingus. Every session does not have to be a marathon of you performing ever more heroic acts on her. My wife actually gets rather irritated if I make it all about her getting hers, and frequently just wants me to TAKE her, "have my way" with her if you will. This may also be part of your dry/fall asleep issue. Since you're using fingers on her in the first place, nothing says you can't do the deed, and THEN give her a few peaks before nighty night.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> Gentle suggestion. Tomorrow morning apologize.
> 
> ...





MEM11363 said:


> WTF?
> 
> C2 initiated. It was a sincere initiation. That is huge progress.





always_alone said:


> I would've reacted the same way. I mean, what do you want from her? Here she is *trying* to respond to your needs and you're pushing her away.
> 
> What possible motivation will she have for change if you're just going to reject her all along the way?
> 
> You can't go from 0-60 just like that.


Okay. I made a mistake. But allow me to explain why I did what I did.

I do things for C2 for two reasons. One, because I want to. I keep her car cleaned and serviced, tidy the house, do the laundry... that sort of thing. 

Then I do things because I have to. Some years ago she dropped an almost full gallon of milk in the floor. Of course it burst and went everywhere. She had some place she had to be so she asked me to clean it up. Did I want to? Absolutely not, but it was the right thing to do.

For many years, I would chase C2 until I wore her resistance down and we would be intimate. Perhaps part of my problem not reaching orgasm is I could tell she would rather be ANYWHERE but where she was doing what she was doing. She was not engaged and never moved except as she rose then fell into her orgasm. She never touched me and any suggestions I might make to inject a little variety were rejected out of hand. 

Last night would have been more of the same. If she had in ANYWAY said something along the lines of actually WANTING to be with me, I would have been all over it. Even just WANTING to do for me. 

But she didn't. When I asked why was she suddenly amorous she couldn't even answer the question. The reason, I think, she couldn't answer the question is because she didn't want to say, "So you will leave me alone about this."

Did I misread? I will give you that perhaps I did. But I really don't think so. There was no warmth, no... that something you can feel when someone is sincere. It was like this was one more chore she had to do.

If I am going to go through this, I don't want to go back to what I had. If I can't get her to the point of at least wanting to be intimate with me for the minimum reason of she wants to do something nice for me, then this marriage is dead anyway.

I will apologize to her tonight and see if I can't smooth this over. But MEME, remember what I said about feeling like a sapper?


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

That's fair. 

I actually assumed her vibe was overtly friendly / warm. And I assumed that because it's almost always my experience in these situations. 

I did sort of leave out some data last night. In a good faith effort not to confuse or complicate the situation. 

M2 initiated a fair bit more than I said last year. But maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the time - she seemed 'off'. 

I think folks around here call this guilt or pity sex. When M2 seems off - I softly decline. 

But now I admit to not being able to give you direction. Because I'm no longer sure what you ought do in this situation. 

I'm afraid if you try to improve frequency and quality at the same time, C2 will implode from the pressure. 





CopperTop said:


> Okay. I made a mistake. But allow me to explain why I did what I did.
> 
> I do things for C2 for two reasons. One, because I want to. I keep her car cleaned and serviced, tidy the house, do the laundry... that sort of thing.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

No one knows your wife better than you Copper so you are the only one who can judge if her initiation was to provide you something or so she avoid something.

Even if she isn't quite into it, if she initiates to provide you something, you go with it. To deny a gift earnestly given in an insult.

If she initiates to avoid thinking of herself as a cold heartless person, you should not go with it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Regardless, a few rejections won't hurt her. Karma and all that. Maybe she can understand what it feels to get rejected. Not a good way to give a life lesson but the lesson is a needed one.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Regardless, a few rejections won't hurt her. Karma and all that. Maybe she can understand what it feels to get rejected. Not a good way to give a life lesson but the lesson is a needed one.


LOL, now john, one would think you just fell off the turnip truck with that comment.

How do we encourage behavior we wish to see continue?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> "Isn't it what you want? Isn't that what this is all about?"


Ouch. "That is where boners go to die" as the saying goes.

I do agree with the others though. If your wife wanted sex the way you want sex then you would not be in this predicament in the first place, so it's not realistic to expect her to change overnight. 

A rejection is a rejection and this time you did it, which probably set you back a bit.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

My wife and I had a funny conversation last night, which goes along with this somewhat. She approached me apologizing for nothing specific, just a general neglect of what she knows I desire from her to feel loved.

After the apology, she said that she was just tired, but that this (with a motioning towards her genitals) was available if I needed it. I just said, ok.

Nothing gets me fired up like knowing I can use her orifice if I need to.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

I will go against the crowd here. Sounds like she was offering "duty sex" to get you "back in line." As you said, it was another chore she had to do to keep her world running the way she wants.

I believe that you're learning that your actions do have impact on her. At least she notices when you're not the duty-bound super-husband. You have gotten her attention and spurred her to some level of action. This is remarkable progress and should give you hope.

My suggestion would be to go home and apologize for last night's miscommunication. Convey that you felt she was initiating as a "chore" and that you don't want to feel like just another burden on her list. Even when she's truly trying to make an effort, your shared history makes you view her through resentment-filled glasses. Your perspective is skewed on things because the pattern of neglect has become engrained over decades. 

Tell this to her and suggest a next step. What that next step could be is up for debate. It could be:

1. A six-week sex moratorium. Take expectations of sex off the table for a guaranteed period of time. (Heck, after last night, it's probably off the table for awhile anyway.) Tell her you're going to focus on things you enjoy doing - some with her and some without her. But make it clear that the one-way nature of the relationship is over. You will continue providing for family in mature way but that you are taking steps to develop other enjoyable outlets as well. 

or

2. Engage in marriage counseling. You have a ton or resentment built up over time. It may be healthiest to unwrap that together with the help of a trained outsider.

Whatever the case, this is an opportunity to address the elephant in the room. You can apologize and rug sweep and get yourself back to your standard level of acceptable misery. Or you can use this as a catalyst to guide the discussion towards improvement. 

It's easier to rug-sweep, of course. But the door has been opened. Are you willing to walk through it, start doing the heavy lifting and calling a spade a spade? You may not actually have the strength or will to do this today. I get that. It's a big step. But, if you want to see change, you're going to have to work up to this at some point. 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> LOL, now john, one would think you just fell off the turnip truck with that comment.
> 
> 
> 
> How do we encourage behavior we wish to see continue?



It's too simplistic a view.

Let's say C and C2 made out like bunnies that night. Then, a few days later, C tries again and is rejected because in C2's mind it's all ABC/1xMonth SLA... Then C sits out for a month then repeat.

Here in the turnip fields of Paducah we call that "same old, same old". C2 has no idea how chronic rejection hurts. C knows.

If I may be so bold as to state the obvious, few of you do. Somehow you think that one or two rolls in the hay and it's a repeatable phenomenon worthy of publication.

It ain't so. Not with heavy duty LD's. I wish it was this simple so I would have more time to devote to real life.

Eta: MarriedTex nailed it.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> For many years, I would chase C2 until I wore her resistance down and we would be intimate. Perhaps part of my problem not reaching orgasm is I could tell she would rather be ANYWHERE but where she was doing what she was doing. She was not engaged and never moved except as she rose then fell into her orgasm. She never touched me and any suggestions I might make to inject a little variety were rejected out of hand.
> 
> 
> Copper


Copper,

You seem like an wonderful man who deserves to feel love and intimacy from his wife. This paragraph makes me so sad. It seems like for your entire marriage you have simply wanted her to want you. You have not gotten that, and to be honest, she seems to have some pretty severe hangups about sexuality. From what you have said, it seems like she has had those from the beginning. No oral sex, no masturbation, no hand jobs, she doesn't really WANT to touch you. 

Many here, me included, have atributed this to her weight issue, but I no longer think that is the case. I think she is basically a non-sexual person. Do you know where her negative ideas about sex come from? She was never very sexualy from the beginning. 

I find it so hard to understand how you don't set some firm boundaries. You want to present this idealized picture of your relationship being perfect except for the sex, but I hope you are getting closer to seeing that your marriage is VERY far from perfect. You have never gotten what you need, and you won't going forward unless you drop a granade. You are relatively young and fit, with kids old enough to take care of themselves. You should be having "wild monkey sex" while your manparts are still working. You deserve to feel what it feels like to be wanted sexually.

As far as the dieting/weight issues, you feel the need to really control a situation where you have absolutely no control. You mention that your wife is involved in online games, and does this in a room separate from you. Take a look in that room when she is not home, and I guarentee that you will find a wide variety of crap food that your wife is stuffing her face with. In order to maintain the weight she is at, she has to be eating a lot of calories. If she is truly eating only healthy food, the weight would be falling off. When you have that much to lose, the beginning is the easiest time to achieve the biggest losses. The need you have to micromanage her exercise is not healthy for you or her. If she wants to walk the dog, she will do it with or without you. You should not invite her, but tell her your going and see what she says. Do not guilt her. Your way has never worked, so you need to change it. 

I wish nothing but the best for you, but i think you need to give her the ultimatum to at least get into MC. Even if she won't do it for herself she NEEDS to do it for you. If she can't committ to do that one thing for you, why are you bothering giving up so much to be with her?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

While I like the overall tone of the post below - a moratorium on sex would be a huge mistake. 

Copper rejected C2. His intentions were not cruel. It is NOT ok for a sincere mis step to shut down sex for more than a couple days. 

The single coolest thing about a good spouse is that they are either:
- genuinely upset with you: you know why - and they neither give much to you nor ask much from you
- not upset with you: in which case everything is pretty normal

The concept of: perfection is requires for sex, but all else continues as normal - is utter crap

They Copper and C2 will get better at this through practice AND honest communication.

For example - Copper needs to say what he needs to see from C2 when she initiates. 

When M2 initiates - if she seems genuinely happy - I proceed. 

If she doesn't - I don't. But we're very practiced at this. Each of us knows what the other is doing - so - there's no real rejection. 






MarriedTex said:


> I will go against the crowd here. Sounds like she was offering "duty sex" to get you "back in line." As you said, it was another chore she had to do to keep her world running the way she wants.
> 
> I believe that you're learning that your actions do have impact on her. At least she notices when you're not the duty-bound super-husband. You have gotten her attention and spurred her to some level of action. This is remarkable progress and should give you hope.
> 
> ...


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> While I like the overall tone of the post below - a moratorium on sex would be a huge mistake.
> 
> Copper rejected C2. His intentions were not cruel. It is NOT ok for a sincere mis step to shut down sex for more than a couple days.
> 
> ...


I agree with Mem that Moratorium may not be best answer. Just suggesting alternatives to a rug-sweeping apology, which is where Copper is heading tonight. Hoping that the wisdom of the crowd would come up with another alternative for a "next-step" suggestion.

Apology is in order, but it has to be an apology in context. Issue from last night is part of a bigger relationship tapestry that must be addressed. As I said, he may not have the will to go there right now. He needs a solid footing to lead the relationship in a new direction. He may not have that footing just yet. But he needs to continue making himself stronger so that he can take that leadership step at some point.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper-- 

I think you are making great progress. You've gotten her attention and successfully destablized things which after so many years of the same pattern is very difficult. So give yourself a pat on the back for that.

Next steps:

1. Keep up the "OK" and other non-committal-type responses when she is fishing for validation (filling up her gas tank, etc). This is the best thing you are doing. Non-confrontational, not passive aggressive, just basically indifferent to her without being in her face about it. A+

2. Don't apologize for your new behavior. Do not explain. A bit of mystery is very helpful to you right now.

3. If she comes to you for sex, evaluate whether it's spiteful ("Isn't THIS what you want?) or a real offering. If it's spiteful (only you will know), just get up and walk away. Don't even dignify it with a comment. If it is a real offering, take her up on it! Don't worry about if it is too soon, etc. 

4. As you start to get results, you will have a great temptation to fall back into your own patterns. Don't do this. You will go right back into the same rut if you do. Look at it like you have decided to kill your old relationship and are establishing a new foundation. You will only interact in a relationship way with her based on this new foundation.

Good luck and keep it up


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Last night would have been more of the same. If she had in ANYWAY said something along the lines of actually WANTING to be with me, I would have been all over it. Even just WANTING to do for me.
> 
> But she didn't. When I asked why was she suddenly amorous she couldn't even answer the question. The reason, I think, she couldn't answer the question is because she didn't want to say, "So you will leave me alone about this."
> 
> ...


It's possible that you did indeed misread her. Tell, me why are you so certain that this time would've been exactly the same as times before?

Did you not say that this is the first time she'd initiated in 10 years? Did you not acknowledge that *your* first response to this advance was suspicion, to doubt her motives?

And did you not also say that when she was struggling to explain her motives, you *cut her off*, and then basically told her what she felt and wanted?

Copper, your wife has some serious issues around sexuality. Yes, she was initiating because you want her to --but you are not even giving her the chance to express that she might be doing it because she actually does want you to be happy. 

If you want to see continued effort, you will need to learn not to respond to her efforts with mistrust and suspicion. 

If you genuinely think that she actually doesn't (or didn't) want sex despite her overture, that she was just building her own resentments by caving yet again, then *talk* to her about it. Just as you started to do. But when she is struggling to find words, don't just cut her off or feed them to her. Listen. Actually listen, without assuming that she doesn't care or is trying to hurt you. Some of this stuff can be very, very difficult to talk about, and it doesn't always come out right the first time.

Upshot is that if you want her to change, you have to give her some space to do it in, and stop applying the same old tired filters you have when you look at her.
.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Like I said, next year gonna be just like the last years. I'd bet on it. Other than the occasional mercy fu-k, does anybody believe, despite counseling, changes in Copper's behavior (if he was capable of making needed changes) or anything else, going to turn this woman into even a 3-4 times a month babe?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

What is it with TAM and "destabilizing" relationships?

Copper destabilizes his by rejecting his wife, making her feel like any effort is a waste of time, and it turns into cold shoulder unfriendliness. 

This to me screams backsliding and making things worse, and I really don't understand why anyone would suggest he do more of this sort of thing.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The sexless threads are painful to read. Trickster, John, BostonBruinFan and the list goes on. Neuklas and Bagdon are exceptions. Oh, and there was Jerry, the tool and die guy whose executive wife probably cheated. And there have been many women with LD spouses, too.

In the end if some strategy like Bagdon's fails, then there is neuklas to fall back on and after that divorce.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

always_alone said:


> What is it with TAM and "destabilizing" relationships?
> 
> Copper destabilizes his by rejecting his wife, making her feel like any effort is a waste of time, and it turns into cold shoulder unfriendliness.
> 
> This to me screams backsliding and making things worse, and I really don't understand why anyone would suggest he do more of this sort of thing.


You do the same thing for many years and don't get results.

In Copper's case, he is a nice, considerate man who habitually placed his wife's needs above his own.

In my opinion, re-emphasizing her importance to him will lead nowhere. It's already obvious that her needs are more important than his.

If he wants to get her attention, he needs to give her a taste of what her life will be like without him. 

That is the idea.

The risk, as you have pointed out, is this destabilization could result in one or both of them realizing that he/she prefers to be apart.

I think in order for this approach to work, you need to get comfortable with the idea that there is an even chance that your relationship will end.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> What is it with TAM and "destabilizing" relationships?


You probably should have saved this comment for a real overreaction thread. There is nothing stable about this marriage in its current form. 


always_alone said:


> Copper destabilizes his by rejecting his wife, making her feel like any effort is a waste of time, and it turns into cold shoulder unfriendliness.


I do think he made a mistake, but come on. So, his possible poor decision overrides her repeated rejection for years? So you blame TAM and C1 because he has been TRAINED to feel this way by his wife? A year of no sex, multiple years of rejection, *plus false accusations* and you are asking him to define why he felt this way? 

Interesting, we must be reading different threads?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MT,

This I whole heartedly agree with. It's likely a positive step to add some context after the apology. 

Such as: We have BOTH neglected the sexual part of the marriage for a long time. The path to a healthy sexual relationship is going to have some rough spots. As long as their is a genuine and obvious commitment to improve matters, we both need to be forgiving of unintentional errors. 

----------





MarriedTex said:


> I agree with Mem that Moratorium may not be best answer. Just suggesting alternatives to a rug-sweeping apology, which is where Copper is heading tonight. Hoping that the wisdom of the crowd would come up with another alternative for a "next-step" suggestion.
> 
> Apology is in order, but it has to be an apology in context. Issue from last night is part of a bigger relationship tapestry that must be addressed. As I said, he may not have the will to go there right now. He needs a solid footing to lead the relationship in a new direction. He may not have that footing just yet. But he needs to continue making himself stronger so that he can take that leadership step at some point.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT

This is right

C2 isn't good at this YET because she lacks practice / experience. 

Let her do - even somewhat badly - and then AFTER some practice say: it's great that you, it would feel even better if .....

----------
All of her behavior needs to be gauged against a single measure: is it an improvement? 







always_alone said:


> It's possible that you did indeed misread her. Tell, me why are you so certain that this time would've been exactly the same as times before?
> 
> Did you not say that this is the first time she'd initiated in 10 years? Did you not acknowledge that *your* first response to this advance was suspicion, to doubt her motives?
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Well. That didn't take long.

I received a text a bit ago. C2 won't be home tonight. No explanations. Just those five words. "I won't be home tonight."

And, just like that, it dies.

===========

I have been thinking about what I did last night. After seeing all the comments about how could I be such a cad, I think I have found the words to describe what I saw and how I felt. But that's for later.

Now I have to get home and do some damage control with the kids.


Copper


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Well. That didn't take long.
> 
> I received a text a bit ago. C2 won't be home tonight. No explanations. Just those five words. "I won't be home tonight."
> 
> ...


 Yes, you made a mistake born out of fear and it happens. You have capitulated to every one of her unreasonable whims.
I'll hug you if there is no sex.
I'll kiss you if there is no sex.
I'll love you if there is no sex.
I'll cuddle if there is no sex.

If you don't give it to me the one time I try, I'll leave.


So, does she always punish you like this?


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Well. That didn't take long.
> 
> I received a text a bit ago. C2 won't be home tonight. No explanations. Just those five words. "I won't be home tonight."
> 
> ...


She sure likes to play games with you!

I thought your kdis were almost grown? Why would you have to do damage control?


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Well. That didn't take long.
> 
> I received a text a bit ago. C2 won't be home tonight. No explanations. Just those five words. "I won't be home tonight."
> 
> ...


Play it cool with kids. You're not heading to divorce yet. 

"Mom wanted a little bit of time out of the house to herself. OK, let's go play some video games."

Key here is detaching the hose. Your moods are not determined by her emotions. If she wants some time away to think things through, that's good. Try to be cheery when she gets home. "Had a good night with the kids, etc." If she has a temper tantrum, that's something to pity - not something to fear. 

In short, don't act like a sad puppy dog. You're trying to shake up the apple cart, she's going to do what she can to shift back to her comfort zone. The fact that she's detaching illustrates that she's getting the message that change is in the air.

Now, she might not like that change, and it very well may drive your relationship to an overdue grave. Or it may finally push things to a more balanced state that is fair to both of you. You have to realize, though, that she may want only a relationship on her terms. Those terms seem to not be healthy for you. Ultimately, you may have decisions to make. Until then, act like the family leader that you are. Continue to set boundaries of what is acceptable behavior and let the chips fall where they may. 

Your only job is to identify the issues that are important to you and determine which are dealbreakers - and which ones where you will be open to compromise. 

Right now, for the first time in quite awhile, she's not getting her way 100%. That's a change in the relationship dynamic. It's not something to be feared. For you, it's something to be embraced. If she wants to pout or throw a tantrum or "teach you a lesson," that really says more about her than it does you.

It takes work to change decades of habits. You're still early in the process. But you're doing great. You've probably done more to improve your life position in the past week than you have in the past decade combined. Stay steady. Stay strong.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Well. That didn't take long.
> 
> I received a text a bit ago. C2 won't be home tonight. No explanations. Just those five words. "I won't be home tonight."
> 
> ...


She's trying to put you in your place, to shift the balance of power back in her favor. Just reply "ok" and nothing else. Or "if that's what you want, ok". But nothing else. DO NOT BEG or PLEAD with her to come home. Make her come back on her own. She has to be the one to make the decision.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Let me start with this, then I will come back and answer everyone's questions.

Allow me give some brief background. I'm 52, but I have slept with precisely two women in my life... both long term relationships. I have never had "casual sex."

In my mind if you pick someone up and you end up sleeping with them, it is all fire and passion. It's physical. It's all tab A goes into slot B. And it may be glorious, but there is no connetion. 

When you make love to someone, there is more. There is a bond, a connection that brings you closer together. 

I may be wrong, but that seems right to me.

Last night it all seemed to be about tab A goes into slot B... but without the heat, fire and passion. The was no lust... but there was no bond either. It felt cold and impersonal. It felt as if... she felt she had to.

There was no kissing. There was no seduction. There was no smile or tenderness. There was no heat. No lust. There was nothing. 

I can see how I was wrong to cut her off. By the same token, I didn't feel like she was struggling to express some great truth. I felt like she didn't want to tell me something. 

I was, and will if I get a chance, apologize to her for the way I acted. But I don't want her to feel forced into giving herself to me. 15 years of that is enough.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> She sure likes to play games with you!
> 
> I thought your kdis were almost grown? Why would you have to do damage control?


They are. But there are still questions to be answered about where their mother is, and why isn't she comhing home.


Copper


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## HeartbrokenW (Sep 26, 2012)

Before coming to TAM 2 1/2 yrs ago, there are things I just didn't know. People say "how could you not have known?" but the God's honest truth was I just didn't know. A little history.. i'll try to be brief..

1st husband was 16 yrs older than I was. Very LD. We had sex maybe once every 3-4 weeks. This was my first experience with a man.. so I thought this was 'normal'. We ended up divorcing because I really wanted a child and he didn't want any more. 

Husband #2 was a year younger than I. He was a truck driver, gone for 3-6 weeks at a time. Sex was good. We avg'd once a week or so before he went on the road. He always stayed up really late (1-2 am) where I went to bed at 10. so we usually did it on the weekends. When he came home off the road, he'd sleep the first 24 hrs, then we'd do it like 3 times in about as many days, then he was gone again. He told me he loved me EVERY day. I thought we had a good marriage. I didn't like giving him BJ's.. it made me gag and was very unpleasant, so he never forced me to. After the first time of my gagging, he never asked for it again. We basically did missionary. We never discussed sex.. ever. Occasionally, we'd go out and have a few drinks, then I would be more willing to try different things.. "practice BJ's", etc, but he would hardly ever drink. CDL and all, didn't want to take a chance. Even at home, he never drank. I didn't necessarily see this as a bad thing, but a little alcohol gave me the courage to want to try different things, I guess.

We had a child, followed by Cervical cancer, 2 surgeries, etc. There was a long stretch there where we physically couldn't have sex. But after about 2 yrs, we resumed our normal pattern, or what was normal for us anyway. 

Then the day came (after 13 yrs of marriage) when he said he didn't want to be married anymore. The reason he first gave me was "I wasn't affectionate enough"... I was dumbfounded, not knowing what he was talking about. We didn't have sex enough. I never turned him down, ever. 

After some time, I found out there were other issues, (he was into drugs and was hiding it, etc.) But his initial 'complaint' is what keeps me hanging around TAM. How could I not know that he wasn't happy? Divorce has been final for over 2 yrs now, and I still have these questions. I guess I don't trust myself to want to try again. I'm 50 now and basically just too scared to try again.

Since finding TAM and reading here just about every night, I've learned that normal couples talk about sex.. its not a forbidden subject. They talk about wants, and desires, and what feels good and what don't. That men have a physical need to release, and if they don't, they get frustrated, bottled up, ready to explode. I. never. knew. this. 2 marriages. Neither H would talk about sex. My mom never told me. I really didn't know.

I've read your thread in its entirety.. First, I admire the hell out of you for not walking away. For wanting to fix things. I know you've talked about wanting to be close with your wife and her not so much..but does she know what physically happens to a man when he doesn't release? how it drives them batty? Does she really know its more than "You want sex"? I honest to God didn't.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> No one knows your wife better than you Copper so you are the only one who can judge if her initiation was to provide you something or so she avoid something.
> 
> Even if she isn't quite into it, if she initiates to provide you something, you go with it. To deny a gift earnestly given in an insult.
> 
> If she initiates to avoid thinking of herself as a cold heartless person, you should not go with it.


If I felt it was the former, I would have been all over her.

I'm not sure the latter is right, but something was off. It just didn't feel right. It was too forced or something. It's hard to explain, but didn't feel like a gift.

And, Ms. Pink... thank you for not giving me up as hopeless.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Ouch. "That is where boners go to die" as the saying goes.
> 
> I do agree with the others though. If your wife wanted sex the way you want sex then you would not be in this predicament in the first place, so it's not realistic to expect her to change overnight.
> 
> A rejection is a rejection and this time you did it, which probably set you back a bit.


I know. But <censored>, I did it because I didn't want her to feel forced. Things have gotten so much better in the last year, I didn't want to lose that.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> or
> 
> 2. Engage in marriage counseling. You have a ton or resentment built up over time. It may be healthiest to unwrap that together with the help of a trained outsider.


This is what I have been lobbying fore. I had tried one other time, and failed, to get us into counseling. 

My trying to get us there again is what has brought all of this out.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> When you make love to someone, there is more. There is a bond, a connection that brings you closer together.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's why I opined many moons ago that the way you recognize the passion is over is the morning after feeling. You feel connected, remember the experience, the works. What you described is basically a one night stand, if that. 

Let it play out - I suspect she'll be gone for a day maybe two then the reality fairy will visit. With a bit of luck she may bottom out and seek IC or MC. Or she may decide that splitting is better than putting out, a concept that much of the esteemed readership here has yet to fathom.

Right now it's internal conflict time. If you say anything it will be tossed back at you - more projection than a movie theater. If you're quiet she will lash out for being cold etc. So basically it's a stalemate regardless. 

I'm puzzled by your reaction? Was it unexpected?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> The sexless threads are painful to read. Trickster, John, BostonBruinFan and the list goes on. Neuklas and Bagdon are exceptions. Oh, and there was Jerry, the tool and die guy whose executive wife probably cheated. And there have been many women with LD spouses, too.
> 
> In the end if some strategy like Bagdon's fails, then there is neuklas to fall back on and after that divorce.



Comparing the two sets of cases is like comparing a BB gun with a howitzer... I recall Neuk's thread and the only thing in common are, um, they're all human. Nothing else. Lots of super LD women would rather divorce than put out and we have seen a lot of that.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Such as: We have BOTH neglected the sexual part of the marriage for a long time. The path to a healthy sexual relationship is going to have some rough spots. As long as their is a genuine and obvious commitment to improve matters, we both need to be forgiving of unintentional errors.



The above is well written but assumes it will be perceived by C2 the way it is perceived by everyone else. In other words, it is written for NormalPeople (tm) by NormalPeople (tm)...

Her actions have demonstrated there is no genuine or obvious commitment to fix anything....


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Many here, me included, have atributed this to her weight issue, but I no longer think that is the case. I think she is basically a non-sexual person. Do you know where her negative ideas about sex come from? She was never very sexualy from the beginning.


No. When we were first married, we were intimate 2-3 times a week, if I recall correctly. The sex, then, was very generic. Missionary, nothing else. But hey... I was just happy to be active again, so I didn't think too much about it. 





Workathome said:


> I find it so hard to understand how you don't set some firm boundaries. You want to present this idealized picture of your relationship being perfect except for the sex, but I hope you are getting closer to seeing that your marriage is VERY far from perfect. You have never gotten what you need, and you won't going forward unless you drop a granade. You are relatively young and fit, with kids old enough to take care of themselves. You should be having "wild monkey sex" while your manparts are still working. You deserve to feel what it feels like to be wanted sexually.


In my defense, the intimacy problem started during pregnancy. In our new parents class, the teachers stressed over and over how the men had to understand their partners were going through a lot of changes and it wasn't going to be like it was. You had to be supportive and get used to the notion that sex was going to be the last thing on a new mothers mind. 

I wanted to be a good and supportive husband, so I went with it. They never said how long I should wait. It was implied that I should wait as long a necessary for her to return to normal. 

Well, mine never did. She was always complaining about how tired she was etc. I was trying to do the right thing. 





Workathome said:


> As far as the dieting/weight issues, you feel the need to really control a situation where you have absolutely no control. You mention that your wife is involved in online games, and does this in a room separate from you. Take a look in that room when she is not home, and I guarentee that you will find a wide variety of crap food that your wife is stuffing her face with. In order to maintain the weight she is at, she has to be eating a lot of calories. If she is truly eating only healthy food, the weight would be falling off. When you have that much to lose, the beginning is the easiest time to achieve the biggest losses. The need you have to micromanage her exercise is not healthy for you or her. If she wants to walk the dog, she will do it with or without you. You should not invite her, but tell her your going and see what she says. Do not guilt her. Your way has never worked, so you need to change it.


I don't micro-manage her diet. Never have. She knows what has to be done. I try to help her with encouragement and praise and doing things with her to keep her motivated. Like walking the dog. That's my job, but I invite her along. 

Her computer is in the little office nook just off the kitchen. No junk food there. For the last couple of months she has done better on her eating. No more big bowls of ice cream at night, etc. And her weight is coming off. 

But 90% of this weight is pregnancy weight from the two children. Weight she never lost after child birth.





Workathome said:


> I wish nothing but the best for you, but i think you need to give her the ultimatum to at least get into MC. Even if she won't do it for herself she NEEDS to do it for you. If she can't committ to do that one thing for you, why are you bothering giving up so much to be with her?


I'm TRYING to get us to the marriage counselor. But ultimatums are a dangerous thing. I'm working on it, trying to cajole and nudge her where I want her to go. 

Someone here called the ultimatum the "nuclear option." I'm just not ready to engage in all out war. Not yet.


Copper


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She stammered around a little so I just cut her off. "It's what I want, but only if you want to. I don't want you doing it just because I want to."
> 
> Then she started in on me. How no matter what she does, it's not good enough. How I'm never satisfied. I didn't say a word and I let her have her say. When she got done busting my chops I simply asked, "Is it too much to ask to want my wife to make love to me?"
> 
> She flopped over and turned out the light. The temperature in the room had dropped ten degrees so I got up and left the bed before I got frostbite.


Thus, you will both remain for the next twenty years, unless one of you decides to actually do something practical about it. I wonder if it felt good for you, did you get a bit of a rush from shutting her down?



john117 said:


> Regardless, a few rejections won't hurt her. Karma and all that. Maybe she can understand what it feels to get rejected. Not a good way to give a life lesson but the lesson is a needed one.


I suspect deep down CopperTop absolutely wanted her to feel the pain of rejection. That said, I doubt he's got the courage to admit it to himself.



Personal said:


> Are you the kind of person that prefers to hide behind the armour of acquiescence, rather than admit to themselves that their ready prostration is a symptom of having little care for the other at all?


CopperTop.

You didn't answer the question quoted above, considering your rejection of her (gigantic step here) recent advance. Has your probable lack of care been laced with some hatred as well?



LongWalk said:


> The sexless threads are painful to read. Trickster, John, BostonBruinFan and the list goes on. Neuklas and Bagdon are exceptions. Oh, and there was Jerry, the tool and die guy whose executive wife probably cheated. And there have been many women with LD spouses, too.
> 
> In the end if some strategy like Bagdon's fails, then there is neuklas to fall back on and after that divorce.


They are painful only because in large part most remain unwilling to think and act differently because of (insert your favourite rationalisation reason here).



CopperTop said:


> Well. That didn't take long.
> 
> I received a text a bit ago. C2 won't be home tonight. No explanations. Just those five words. "I won't be home tonight."
> 
> And, just like that, it dies.


You make your bed! The both of you are completely responsible for your miserable marriage. After 20 years of a sexless marriage, neither of you are victims. If either of you had found your relationship unsatisfactory, these problems will have been resolved or dissolved a long time ago.

As I have said before she may leave you! If she isn't coming home perhaps she's now developed the courage required to end this misery.



CopperTop said:


> I know. But <censored>, I did it because I didn't want her to feel forced. Things have gotten so much better in the last year, I didn't want to lose that.


:banghead:

As an aside and not related to what is quoted above, yet it does relate to your relationship. The day you always presume to know what she thinks or what she will say do or react, is the day she has become invisible to you.

If you presume to finish her sentences or know her every action you are already ignoring and discounting her.

If you really wanted to resolve this through potential reconciliation or divorce, you would take the advice you dislike and discount. For all that you like and have done has failed.

Change your mind and the sex will follow (either with her or with someone else).


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You probably should have saved this comment for a real overreaction thread. There is nothing stable about this marriage in its current form.


Well, and that's exactly why I made the comment. There is nothing stable about what is going on here, and yet the advice is still to destabilize more.

It never matters how bad things get, just keep on destabilizing until the marriage is destroyed.

Why not work on stabilizing instead? 



phillybeffandswiss said:


> I do think he made a mistake, but come on. So, his possible poor decision overrides her repeated rejection for years? So you blame TAM and C1 because he has been TRAINED to feel this way by his wife? A year of no sex, multiple years of rejection, *plus false accusations* and you are asking him to define why he felt this way?


Let me be clear: I am not blaming him for how he feels or asking him to justify his actions. Nor am I saying that a mistake spelss disaster.

I'm simply pointing out that if he wants something to happen, other than this death spiral of destabilization, if he wants positive change, then he is going to have to change too. He will have to forgive her for those miserable years and find a way to trust her and work with her to improve.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Copper--
> 
> Some random thoughts. I suspect you will probably hate a lot of these, but they are actionable changes you can make which, if you are consistent, will elicit a change in behavior from your wife.
> 
> ...




I really like this post. It's focusing on you, Copper; and you deserve some compensation for being sexually starved.

Make yourself better; while discontinuing the emotional investment in her: which is *so* painful to give when your need for sex is regarded as something monstrous.

But, you are not leaving her. She basically gets to keep her current lifestyle. She just won't get the luxury of emotional care and concern from you.

MEM, always_alone, and jld have very good ideas and posts too. Ideally, you could harmonize all these ideas.

But I still sense your wife taking and taking and taking; with no intention of ever fulfilling the natural sexual hunger you have.

She needs to know that something in you has changed and will not accept this anymore.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> I'm puzzled by your reaction? Was it unexpected?


My reaction? Was her leaving unexpected? I'm not sure your question.

But yes, her not coming home was unexpected. I thought we had a stronger bond than that. I wouldn't have done that to her. I would have at least had the courage to tell her, to her face, that we were done. I hope we're not done and she returns. 

But this hurts. It hurts more than anything we have encountered in the past. I'm telling myself it's part of the processes. But that's a hard sale... even for me.


Copper


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> In my opinion, re-emphasizing her importance to him will lead nowhere. It's already obvious that her needs are more important than his.
> 
> If he wants to get her attention, he needs to give her a taste of what her life will be like without him.
> 
> That is the idea.


No one here is saying that he should be placing her needs higher than his. Or thinking of her as more important. Absolutely he needs to be resolute about his own needs, and clear on his own boundaries.

There are many different ways to get someone's attention. Climbing out of a rut needn't involve destabilization, and would, I think, be a more productive way of approaching things.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
This an attempt to lead her in a positive direction. 

I'd be the first one to admit it may fail. But I believe it fits the model of: Do the right thing over a period of time and then let the chips fall where they may

Honestly - based on my very limited quantitative knowledge of recovery rates: I would give Copper at best a 20% chance of success. 

And that's mostly because C2 has a very SELF centered world view AND body issues AND sexual hang ups. 

On the plus side, Copper is smart, emotionally strong and a good life partner for her and frankly for "most" women. 

I believe his most likely outcome is that C2 is willing to lie there weekly and let him have sex with her - to avoid a divorce. 

There's a huge difference between a partner who sincerely wants to make you happy.....
And
A partner who's only doing it so you don't leave.....

In the former case - it is mostly about you. In the latter case it's mostly about themselves. 





john117 said:


> The above is well written but assumes it will be perceived by C2 the way it is perceived by everyone else. In other words, it is written for NormalPeople (tm) by NormalPeople (tm)...
> 
> Her actions have demonstrated there is no genuine or obvious commitment to fix anything....


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> The above is well written but assumes it will be perceived by C2 the way it is perceived by everyone else. In other words, it is written for NormalPeople (tm) by NormalPeople (tm)...
> 
> Her actions have demonstrated there is no genuine or obvious commitment to fix anything....


NormalPeople™ don't put up with 20 year sexless marriages.

CopperTop and his wife are both equally responsible for their dysfunctional marriage.

His actions like her actions are demonstrative of little commitment to fix anything.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> My reaction? Was her leaving unexpected? I'm not sure your question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The fact you wouldn't do it to her, while its the first thing she does to you says a lot about how she feels about you and how she sees you. Like she can take it or leave it. She'll stick around as long as you tow the line. 

I'm curious how you see yourself as part of this. I mean really, deep inside. Was she always heavy? I'm not saying it fits here for sure, but there are signs.....a lot of people think some guys go after heavy gals because they think they'll (the gals) not have better options and thus be more likely to stay and love them. Was that you? Is that why you hold on so tight? Do you fear you're not worthy of better than you're getting? If that's the case you need to banish that thought.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I don't want this. I never wanted this. 

I don't want to coerce her anymore. I don't want to feel guilty for wanting to be intimate my wife any longer. I no longer want to feel like I'm making her do something she doesn't want to do. I don't want to have to keep telling her that "it's okay" that she pulled the plug during our love making.

You know... I just realized that I'm right back where I started. Now I remember why I stopped the chase. I'm just tired... so... very... tired. 

The only person I can change is me. These last few days I've been trying to change her... and look where it has brought me. I knew better, but I fell in the same <censored> trap again. 


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT

Copper,
Do NOT allow C2 to demonize you for what you did. Your response was about BOTH of you. 

I believe you that she was doing a detached - if you want to stick it in - go right ahead - type thing. You didn't make that clear initially yesterday. It's clear now. 

Regardless - you acted in GOOD FAITH. So don't kick yourself. 

C2 is likely feeling afraid right now. I believe she doesn't think she can do what you need her to. 

The truth is - she might be right. But a sex therapist might also be able to help her - if she WANTS to get help. 

The MOST important thing you can do at this point is to NOT chase her. Give her space and let her decide what she wants. 

And that might be divorce. And if so, here's what that means: She dislikes the idea of sex so much - that she'd rather divorce than even ATTEMPT to address this issue with you. 





phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, you made a mistake born out of fear and it happens. You have capitulated to every one of her unreasonable whims.
> I'll hug you if there is no sex.
> I'll kiss you if there is no sex.
> I'll love you if there is no sex.
> ...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> But yes, her not coming home was unexpected. I thought we had a stronger bond than that. I wouldn't have done that to her. I would have at least had the courage to tell her, to her face, that we were done. I hope we're not done and she returns.


She acts and you talk about talking.

I rhetorically ask, which is more courageous?

Actions speak louder than words!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

This is the very first post you've written - like this. 

Let me remind you: YOU MATTER TOO....

Her text message was the latest example of her treating you in a way you would never treat her. 

You are so used to being treated as if you DONT matter - when your needs collide with hers - that you have no concept of how folks handle real conflict in a loving relationship. 

And C2 knows her behavior is not loving, not considerate and NOT defensible. That's why the idea of MC terrifies her. 

This is all going to turn on the answer to a single, rather simple question. 

Does Copper believe that he matters? 


QUOTE=CopperTop;12016849]I don't want this. I never wanted this. 

I don't want to coerce her anymore. I don't want to feel guilty for wanting to be intimate my wife any longer. I no longer want to feel like I'm making her do something she doesn't want to do. I don't want to have to keep telling her that "it's okay" that she pulled the plug during our love making.

You know... I just realized that I'm right back where I started. Now I remember why I stopped the chase. I'm just tired... so... very... tired. 

The only person I can change is me. These last few days I've been trying to change her... and look where it has brought me. I knew better, but I fell in the same <censored> trap again. 


Copper[/QUOTE]


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The fact you wouldn't do it to her, while its the first thing she does to you says a lot about how she feels about you and how she sees you. Like she can take it or leave it. She'll stick around as long as you tow the line.
> 
> I'm curious how you see yourself as part of this. I mean really, deep inside. Was she always heavy? I'm not saying it fits here for sure, but there are signs.....a lot of people think some guys go after heavy gals because they think they'll (the gals) not have better options and thus be more likely to stay and love them. Was that you? Is that why you hold on so tight? Do you fear you're not worthy of better than you're getting? If that's the case you need to banish that thought.


Define heavy? 

She was curvy, but I like curvy. I don't like rail thin women. I like women that LOOK like women. 

Here is a picture of a woman that has more or less the body shape and size of C2 when we met. In fact, this very woman has a passing resemblance to C2. The coloring and face are very similar. 

My wife was beautiful, and she still has the face of an angel. 


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is gibberish. 

You have been changing YOU. You've been asserting yourself. 

And now she's attempting to intimidate you. 




CopperTop said:


> I don't want this. I never wanted this.
> 
> I don't want to coerce her anymore. I don't want to feel guilty for wanting to be intimate my wife any longer. I no longer want to feel like I'm making her do something she doesn't want to do. I don't want to have to keep telling her that "it's okay" that she pulled the plug during our love making.
> 
> ...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Define heavy?
> 
> She was curvy, but I like curvy. I don't like rail thin women. I like women that LOOK like women.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to define heavy, because that wasn't really the point. I probably shouldn't have even put it in those terms. What I was getting at is, was part of the reason you chose her in the first place because you thought in the very darkest back of your mind that you would be her only option, and therefore that made her a safe choice? Did you fear women who might dump you for better options? The answer to this sheds light on how you see and feel about yourself.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> This is all going to turn on the answer to a single, rather simple question.
> 
> Does Copper believe that he matters?


He matters.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> She acts and you talk about talking.
> 
> I rhetorically ask, which is more courageous?
> 
> Actions speak louder than words!


What would you have me do?


Copper


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Sadly CopperTop, no one can convince you that you are worthy and as special as anyone else. No one can fill your boots with joy while-ever you deny it yourself. You have to feel happiness from the inside out.

Though you are special and worthy, that fact doesn't matter if you don't believe it yourself. I encourage you to get some professional help to remind you that like all of us you have tremendous worth.

That said, while you rationalise the intolerable as you have always done and still do while lacking the courage to actually act in ways that will make a difference. You'll always have some trouble with this and other intimate relationships.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not going to define heavy, because that wasn't really the point. I probably shouldn't have even put it in those terms. What I was getting at is, was part of the reason you chose her in the first place because you thought in the very darkest back of your mind that you would be her only option, and therefore that made her a safe choice? Did you fear women who might dump you for better options? The answer to this sheds light on how you see and feel about yourself.


Oh. I see what you were getting at. The answer to that is not no, but HELL NO. 

She had male friends and was dating a PhD when I met her. She was doing original research on the effects of Dioxin in the environment. Her results were published in some magazine or something. She is a successful woman an I WON her. 

We were introduced to each other by a mutual friend that thought we would be a good match. 

We are. Or were.


Copper


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Oh. I see what you were getting at. The answer to that is not no, but HELL NO.
> 
> She had male friends and was dating a PhD when I met her. She was doing original research on the effects of Dioxin in the environment. Her results were published in some magazine or something. She is a successful woman an I WON her.
> 
> ...


So, at the other extreme, do you think she looks down on you?


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She is a successful woman an I WON her.


How about she won you.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So, at the other extreme, do you think she looks down on you?


No. I think she loves me... or did. 

I can stand toe to toe with her intellectually. Different areas of expertise, but her intelligence doesn't intimidate me. We have (or had) some great intellectual debates. 

And if I can bring her to two, three or sometimes even four peaks, and could be ready to go again any times she's ready, I wouldn't think it's what I'm doing there. 

But, as everyone has so recently pointed out, I can't know what she is thinking. So who knows. Maybe.


Copper


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> She acts and you talk about talking.
> 
> I rhetorically ask, which is more courageous?
> 
> Actions speak louder than words!


^^^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE. You talk, cater, placate, do the heavy lifting, suffer, complain, seek help, sexually please her with no reciprocation and try new things over the course of the last few months and years.

She gets angry and leaves over a rejection. The same rejection you've been dealing with for years. Wait, I take that back, similar because once is nowhere near the same as years of rejection.

Like I said, does she always punish you like this?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> ^^^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE. You talk, cater, placate, do the heavy lifting, suffer, complain, seek help, sexually please her with no reciprocation and try new things over the course of the last few months and years.
> 
> She gets angry and leaves over a rejection. The same rejection you've been dealing with for years. Wait, I take that back, similar because once is nowhere near the same as years of rejection.
> 
> Like I said, does she always punish you like this?


No. It's not normally like this.

<EDIT>
Or she left over a deep hurt. But isn't that EXACTLY the advice a lot are giving me now? Don't tolerate the other party's bad behavior.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
</EDIT>


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> This is the very first post you've written - like this.
> 
> ...





MEM11363 said:


> This is gibberish.
> 
> You have been changing YOU. You've been asserting yourself.
> 
> And now she's attempting to intimidate you.


I'm not intimidated. Just hurt. 

If this is the end, I guess I can accept that. I just wish there was more I could have done. 


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would not call it equally responsible... Not equal at all.

One side trying to find a solution while the other engages in her favorite leisure activities oblivious to reality is hardly equal.

If I had to guess I could see an outcome whereas she's gone for a couple days and comes back as cold as North Dakota. This will cause concern to C and he will be inclined to cave in for her return.

The battle hardened cynic in me would like nothing more than a few rounds of marital warfare to get C2 to understand that the way things were is toast. I know I'm cold calculating and all that but you have to be able to commit to destroying your marriage in order to save it. 

I anticipate additional - unpredictable - fireworks from C2...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I'm simply pointing out that if he wants something to happen, other than this death spiral of destabilization, if he wants positive change, then he is going to have to change too. He will have to forgive her for those miserable years and find a way to trust her and work with her to improve.


There is nothing to forgive. She did what she needed to do. I don't hate her, or begrudge her what she did. I didn't last night. I just don't want to play the same game anymore. 

I can't do that anymore. 


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> My reaction? Was her leaving unexpected? I'm not sure your question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It should not hurt. Every few years my wife goes back to Frigidistan for a month and the kids and I have a blast. 

As long as it hurts you need to "harden up".


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> And that might be divorce. And if so, here's what that means: She dislikes the idea of sex so much - that she'd rather divorce than even ATTEMPT to address this issue with you.



Bingo. Is sex even worth it under those conditions?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> She needs to know that something in you has changed and will not accept this anymore.


I tried that last night. I wanted to give her the out to not feel the pressure of doing something she didn't want to. Before I would take her offer, but I no longer wanted to accept her giving herself to me under coercion. 

But I have been eviscerated over it. And in 20/20 hindsight, rightfully so. 


Copper


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I tried that last night. I wanted to give her the out to not feel the pressure of doing something she didn't want to. Before I would take her offer, but I no longer wanted to accept her giving herself to me under coercion.
> 
> But I have been eviscerated over it. And in 20/20 hindsight, rightfully so.
> 
> ...


Good lord, do you even realize how broken you are?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> It's possible that you did indeed misread her. Tell, me why are you so certain that this time would've been exactly the same as times before?


Call it a feeling. There was no warmth in the advance. I had this feeling that she was approaching this with the same enthusiasm that I would for laundry. Just another chore to be done.





always_alone said:


> Did you not say that this is the first time she'd initiated in 10 years? Did you not acknowledge that *your* first response to this advance was suspicion, to doubt her motives?
> 
> And did you not also say that when she was struggling to explain her motives, you *cut her off*, and then basically told her what she felt and wanted?


I acknowledge my part in this. I could have handled it better. But why would she suddenly choose now? After a year of my giving her room, why, suddenly, did she decide that she wanted me? Why the sigh as if I was some burden she had to endure. Why did she have such a hard time finding the words to say, "Because I want to." 





always_alone said:


> Copper, your wife has some serious issues around sexuality. Yes, she was initiating because you want her to --but you are not even giving her the chance to express that she might be doing it because she actually does want you to be happy.


Is it that difficult to say that? Because I want you to be happy? She doesn't seem to have difficulty saying similar things in other situations.





always_alone said:


> If you want to see continued effort, you will need to learn not to respond to her efforts with mistrust and suspicion.


I know. I messed up.





always_alone said:


> If you genuinely think that she actually doesn't (or didn't) want sex despite her overture, that she was just building her own resentments by caving yet again, then *talk* to her about it. Just as you started to do. But when she is struggling to find words, don't just cut her off or feed them to her. Listen. Actually listen, without assuming that she doesn't care or is trying to hurt you. Some of this stuff can be very, very difficult to talk about, and it doesn't always come out right the first time.
> 
> Upshot is that if you want her to change, you have to give her some space to do it in, and stop applying the same old tired filters you have when you look at her.
> .


I've given her a year of space. If she had anything to say, I would have listened. It would have been the first conversation we would have had in years about this problem without sniping at each other. But, "Uhhh..." followed by several seconds of silence doesn't give me a lot to work with.

I screwed it up. I can admit this. But I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I had taken her, and asked again in a few days, or a week, I would have gotten the same response. I KNOW this, because it has happened many, many times in the past. 


Copper


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> I would not call it equally responsible... Not equal at all.
> 
> One side trying to find a solution while the other engages in her favorite leisure activities oblivious to reality is hardly equal.
> 
> ...


If one tolerates a sexless marriage for 20 years more or less, they bear plenty of responsibility. He as can any other person in similar circumstances end their misery immediately if only they wanted to. 

One's choices are also one's responsibility.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate MEM. I wasn't implying he actually has Stockholm's, just the similarity. And as of yet, while he is taking some action, it doesn't appear to be anything outside of his normal milieu. He does spend a lot of time pleading ignorance for or generally absolving his wife.


There are two sides to every conflict. I'm trying to keep in mind that she see things differently than I do, and make sure I am not giving a slanted view of our problems.





ET1SSJonota said:


> I know by now you're most likely ignoring what I have to say Copper, but I think you tremendously messed up in your response tonight. Feel free to ignore, pass on, but here is some reasoning for you if you're interested.


I read every word of every post, even if I don't respond to each and every post.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Firstly, I've gone through the "pity sex" feeling routine, and while my case, again, was nowhere near as severe as you, one poster (Racer, IIRC) hit me with some words that I'll try to repeat. Basically, if what we call "pity" or "duty" sex is all that our spouses are willing to give us, then why would you turn that down? Is it "everything" you want? No. But might it be everything your partner could bring at that time? YES. And while the implied driver is coercion, it's equally likely that their actual motivator is love, caring, and concern for the relationship. Why would you play "judge" over their inner motivation? (This is relatively a moot point in those instances in which the SO basically flops on the bed, undresses, and say "ok get it over with")


This is C2.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Second, while the verbal swordsmanship has been limited, it has been somewhat different than your description of past interactions. Further, after only a short while of what might be called "pestering" in your vocabulary, not only did she acquiesce, but she actually took the extraordinary step for a LD partner and INITIATED. For someone who suggests that baby steps in this long war are your way to go to keep from alienating her, you missed the boat here. In effect, while exaggerated to some degree, you basically just told her that you won't accept anything less than her grinding her hips against you in desire (at least that is how she likely took it).


I can acknowledge this. 





ET1SSJonota said:


> Recall your discussions about her weight loss and how the true killer was the daunting task, the enormity of the transition required. You just did that with her view of the sex issue. Instead of something maybe she was willing to work up to, now it's an all or nothing. Cold fish to sex goddess, if you would.
> 
> Another way to look at it: the filling the car with gas. You did that out of caring and love. You certainly don't get any joy out of filling the car with gas. And you certainly didn't spontaneously burst with desire to go fill the car of your own accord at that exact moment. But it is still a sign of love and affection that you will undergo that effort. And it doesn't hurt or take away from you to go do it. Apply that same standard to her attempts at improving the intimacy.
> 
> ...


It hasn't been this way for so long, I can't remember if it was EVER this way. 

There was no kissing last night. There was no gentle touches. There was no warmth. It was very much the "do what you have to and get it over with."





ET1SSJonota said:


> Unless absolutely unbelievable, go with whatever her response is here. I would have considered this approach "baby steps". You got some intimacy, she took steps, you gave positive re-enforcement to those positive steps, and in the end her desires were taken into consideration. Sounds like an all around win to me.
> 
> One other thought I had along the "duty sex" line is this: Many women actually LIKE pleasing their man and not being in it for themselves at all (and the same goes for many men). This is the essence of the NSA BJ/ HJ/ Cunnilingus. Every session does not have to be a marathon of you performing ever more heroic acts on her. My wife actually gets rather irritated if I make it all about her getting hers, and frequently just wants me to TAKE her, "have my way" with her if you will. This may also be part of your dry/fall asleep issue. Since you're using fingers on her in the first place, nothing says you can't do the deed, and THEN give her a few peaks before nighty night.


I don't get the feeling she LIKES pleasing me. I get the feeling she would actually like me to hurry up and get it over with. There is no feedback. No touching. No nothing. As I'm not feeling very charitable at the moment I will say this, making love to C2 is like banging a corpse except for the few seconds as she begins to peak.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Good lord, do you even realize how broken you are?


Why? How?

Before she dropped the bomb on me, everyone was telling me how cruel I was for rejecting her. After she dropped the bomb on me, I can see they were right.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Bingo. Is sex even worth it under those conditions?


No. And that was what I was trying to avoid last night.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I'm tracking C2 using credit card and bank information.

She has pulled a sizable wad of cash... all an ATM will allow her to have. I know she hasn't checked into a hotel. 

I do know she is headed west on I-40. I'm guessing she is returning home to her family. Not our family, but HER family, and she is going to be driving right into Thor. I'm worried that she will become stranded somewhere. Her car isn't designed to cope with deep snow and icy roads. I will check in the morning and see if she landed somewhere and I'm praying to see a hotel charge pop up. 

This is the hardest part. The worry.


Copper


----------



## HeartbrokenW (Sep 26, 2012)

What about your kids? Did she take them?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Before she dropped the bomb on me, everyone was telling me how cruel I was for rejecting her. After she dropped the bomb on me, I can see they were right.



Not quite.

She didn't flee because of what you did or did not.

She fled because she did not like where the train was going.

I already predicted she'll be gone for longer than a single overnight. Hopefully she's ok with the weather and all that. But that proves just what we talked about. Her mind is so wired against intimacy that she'll drive thru Siberia in a convertible to avoid intimacy...

There are no winners here. 

Huge difference.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> There is nothing to forgive. She did what she needed to do. I don't hate her, or begrudge her what she did. I didn't last night. I just don't want to play the same game anymore.
> 
> I can't do that anymore.


I understand. And am sorry you're going through this.

FWIW, I don't think she left because you rejected her in the one instance. That might have been the catalyst, but I'm guessing she senses you have reached the end of your line and doesn't herself know what to do. She runs because she really doesn't want to face the issue head on.

Other posters are seeing this as selfish, and while I think that in some senses that is true, I'm guessing that something deeper is going on: something that she doesn't want to admit to you --or perhaps to herself. 

But either way, the issue has now come to full boil. You've decided "enough of this," and it is now it's on her to decide her response is.

A very tough time. Wishing you well...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,
Part of the reason your marital dynamic is so one sided is that when C2 has done some version of this (being cold and shutting down) you have responded by trying to warm her up via an escalating series of olive branches. 

After she has punished you sufficiently - she goes back to 'normal' with you. 

That can't happen this time - unless you wish to return to the place from whence you started this journey. 

You need to:
- Refrain from nervous talking 
- I'll be quantitative here - you want to say fewer than half as many words as C2 does

Unfortunately she is likely to be cruel and aggressive.

If she mentions divorce, it's best to stick with this: 

So you would prefer to get divorced, instead of seeing if a MC can help us address our issues? 

Don't debate - don't argue or list all the things you think are great about the marriage. 

If she revisits the idea of moving with the children, it's best to stick with this: Regardless of what you do, I won't do anything intentionally vindictive just to try to hurt you. And I certainly won't attempt to use the children as a weapon. 

At some point she will engage in a 'guilt offensive' via some version of this: WHY are you doing this to ME/US?

And the answer to that is simple, totally honest and brutally precise: I CRAVE the emotional connection that comes from a REAL sexual connection every bit as strongly as you crave a "her favorite food". After two decades of being on a sexual intimacy starvation diet - I couldn't take it any more. 

And then after the crying and apologizing that C2 does - you ask: Are you willing to see a MC and maybe even a sex therapist so we can find a way to make that part of our marriage good for both of us? 

Unless the answer is YES..... Nothing else matters.








CopperTop said:


> No. And that was what I was trying to avoid last night.
> 
> 
> Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stop beating yourself up. Your intentions were good. 

She has a cell phone. She's smart and resourceful. She may have already checked into a hotel and just paid cash. 





CopperTop said:


> I'm tracking C2 using credit card and bank information.
> 
> She has pulled a sizable wad of cash... all an ATM will allow her to have. I know she hasn't checked into a hotel.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Phoenix,

You are one post from being the first person I have ever tried to have banned.

Just one. 



[/B]


ThePheonix said:


> You know you've done this crap to yourself my man. You're the one volunteering to be treated like a clown sitting on the collapsing seat at a carnival dunking stool while she giggles and throws ball at the target. You're the one who has allowed himself to be placed on a sex starvation diet by the little lady and tolerates the "coitus interruptus" after she gets off . You're the one with the, _"I just can't do or say anything that might upset my queen"_ disposition. Bottom line Dawg is you're playing a major role in engineering your own miserable situation.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AA,

I agree. Underneath all of this - is some mix of hurt and fear. Fight or flight. For now she has chosen flight. 





always_alone said:


> I understand. And am sorry you're going through this.
> 
> FWIW, I don't think she left because you rejected her in the one instance. That might have been the catalyst, but I'm guessing she senses you have reached the end of your line and doesn't herself know what to do. She runs because she really doesn't want to face the issue head on.
> 
> ...


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I acknowledge my part in this. I could have handled it better. But why would she suddenly choose now? After a year of my giving her room, why, suddenly, did she decide that she wanted me? Why the sigh as if I was some burden she had to endure. Why did she have such a hard time finding the words to say, "Because I want to."


I think she picked now because she senses something is different. She knows at least on some level that she needs to deal with this, despite successful dodging for many years. 

And she has a hard time saying "I want to" because they aren't really true. For whatever reason, she doesn't want to. She is doing it because *you* want her to. So she doesn't want to lie, but she also doesn't want to be so blunt. Because even though she doesn't really want to, there is at least some parts of her that wants you happy. 

At least that's my take.





CopperTop said:


> Is it that difficult to say that? Because I want you to be happy? She doesn't seem to have difficulty saying similar things in other situations.


She's choking, IMHO, because she wants to find a way of saying all sorts of contradictory, possibly hurtful, things to you in a way that you will understand and not be hurt by.

It's not as simple as "I want you to be happy". More like "I want you to be happy, but I wish you would be happy some other way because I'm not sure I can measure up or handle it.




CopperTop said:


> I've given her a year of space. If she had anything to say, I would have listened.


By "space," what I meant was allowing her a chance to be different, without assuming she would always be in the same mindset, always acting/reacting the same way. That maybe this time she would try -- or respond differently -- or something.

It is tough to change for someone, especially if you don't really understand what they want from you. And for her to be different, she will need to practice, and try new things, and it will likely be awkward and uncomfortable at first.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AA,

This is a beautifully nuanced and balanced view of the situation.

What's makes this so difficult is her aversion to any real communication about it. To be fair to Copper he has asked her to go to MC many times. 

Ideally that would be a safe place for him to share how it feels when she just lies there - sans the momentary movememt when she raptures. And that it feels bad that she makes no effort to help him finish once she's 'done'. 

I'll return to a food analogy. Everyone has foods they dislike - C2 included. 

But you put C2 in a cell and slowly starve her - and worse - feed her at very irregular intervals and she will find it VERY difficult to complain that her jailers are serving XYZ - which she doesn't really like. 

And I think you know me by now. I'm only making this analogy because - it's accurate. 

And to complete the analogy - the jailer isn't being cruel - he's merely serving the meals when they are provided to him. 

Just as C2 is providing what comes naturally to her. She isn't a naturally sexual person. For whatever mix of reasons, sex is difficult for her.





always_alone said:


> I think she picked now because she senses something is different. She knows at least on some level that she needs to deal with this, despite successful dodging for many years.
> 
> And she has a hard time saying "I want to" because they aren't really true. For whatever reason, she doesn't want to. She is doing it because *you* want her to. So she doesn't want to lie, but she also doesn't want to be so blunt. Because even though she doesn't really want to, there is at least some parts of her that wants you happy.
> 
> ...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Copper,

Do I have the sequence of events correct?

You assert yourself (yay). When she (passive-aggressively) states "My car is almost out of gas"; you don't go fill it up for her. Good for you!! Why oh why can't she say "Cooper, can you please fill my car with gas tonight?" Think about that.

Anywayzz, a day (or two??) after this, she tells you that you seem different. *And she offers sex*

Are you connecting the dots here?

And now she has pulled a disappearing act. Very inconsiderate to disappear like that, making you worry about her. That's not an accident by the way.

And I still remember that piece of info. from an earlier post of yours -- that she's going to take you for all she can get, if you divorce her.

And at 6' and 200lbs and working out almost everyday, you are probably delicious. I bet this makes her real insecure.

Hope this is helpful. It probably isn't. Good luck.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She's trying to put you in your place, to shift the balance of power back in her favor. Just reply "ok" and nothing else. Or "if that's what you want, ok". But nothing else. DO NOT BEG or PLEAD with her to come home. Make her come back on her own. She has to be the one to make the decision.


Agreed. Do not ask her to come back; she should ask to do so.

The one thing you should do is insist that minor children be back at the family (their habitual home). Say something like "it's obvious you have some decisions to make, but I expect the kids to be back tomorrow or I will be taking legal action".


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

Sorry folks. I have to agree with what Copper did.
At this point in my life/relationship with my wife, I'm SURE I'd do the same thing. I know for a fact, if she initiated, it'd be because she thought I wanted it, not because she did. I'd know it was just a hollow act, out of guilt/pity, for me.
I'm 56, she's 52. Been married 33 years (34 in July). First for both of us.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Hey Copper-

Take a step back and just relax for a minute. 

She is not leaving you. 

This is a power play. It's pathetic, but honestly not that suprising. You've asserted yourself and that it pretty shocking to you both.

You need to stay strong. Don't chase her. Don't apologize for what you've done. You have been supremely reasonable. She is out of line. 

She will reach out to you. When she does, do not pour gratitude out at her. Treat it like it was expected. 

You are on the verge of a major transformation in your life. These opportunities don't come every day. Stay strong, keep doing what you are doing and do not fall back into your old mindset.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Reminds me of a instructor whose wife developed a dramatic habit of taking the young kid and running back to her parents in Valdosta Georgia when she couldn't get her way. He would always take off and drive 175-200 miles to get her; on so many occasions he got in trouble for missing his classes. 
She pulled that stunt the last time just as the quarter (now semester) ended. Instead of chasing her to Valdosta, he closed the house down and made an impromptu three week fly fishing trip to West Yellowstone, never telling her where he had gone, and leaving a letter on the kitchen table saying when he'd return, telling her the next time she runs back to momma to please stay in Valdosta. That was a least ten years ago and, as far as I know, subsequent visits to Valdosta were family visits.


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## Oldmatelot (Mar 28, 2011)

Man I'm sorry that you live your life like this. If I were in your shoes I would see the youngest through collage and then end this relationship. 
Early 50's is still young enough to put your life together and enjoy life.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

flyer said:


> At this point in my life/relationship with my wife, I'm SURE I'd do the same thing. I know for a fact, if she initiated, it'd be because she thought I wanted it, not because she did. I'd know it was just a hollow act, out of guilt/pity, for me.
> I'm 56, she's 52. Been married 33 years (34 in July). First for both of us.


I don't doubt this is common with a lot of men and it would be wonderful to have some method, medication, procedure or something to fix or prevent your spouse from losing sexual desire or for men from going bald. If you have the will and the money, hair transplants will sometimes do a lot for baldness. I don't think they've got much of anything that will re-fire the furnace in a spouse that's simply lost desire. The fact is women who give it up only because their husbands want it are doing a highly unselfish act and should be commended. Her loss of interest is usually not willful on her part and a husband demanding or pleading his case as to how much he wants/need her to be "into it" will not resurrect her desire. 
Ask the ladies if you doubt it.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I agree with you phoenix, but what does that leave us with. I know my wife would love to desire me, however she doesn't and it is clear in her actions. Is it her fault?

I don't really know the answer to that question, I will say that she does nothing to cultivate desire for me. For the record, I have my hair, weigh 60lbs less than I did when we married, am the primary wage earning, cook, and organizer of the house hold.

I know she loves me, she tells me often, but it mostly feels like she loves the comfort and peace that is provided by being married to me.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> The fact is women who give it up only because their husbands want it are doing a highly unselfish act and should be commended.


Fact is, same thing happens with both genders and neither should be commended.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> What's makes this so difficult is her aversion to any real communication about it. To be fair to Copper he has asked her to go to MC many times.


Yes, agreed. And she needs to be called out on that. Good communication is critical, and MC can be very helpful. If I were in a position to give her advice, I'd tell her to go.

Not so sure about your analogy, though. Copper is not in prison, he could have thrown his food against the wall and walked out years ago, or less dramatically, raised a genuine stink with the management.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize. I don't blame him. I get how these sorts of things can slowly erode one's sense of one's worth, as well as right and ability to stand up to it. 

But ultimately, Copper owns this too. If it is a jail cell, he has a key. And if it's to be anything more than her grudging acquiescence, he needs to stop looking at her as a warden of his sex life.

The really hard part about changing oneself or a dynamic is that it takes people quite a while to adjust to the differences. Inevitably they will keep trying to shove you back in the same old box because that's what they are used to.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

It's been a long time since I have logged in to respond, but I have been following your thread for awhile now to see where you go with this. Most guys just come here to complain, but are not really ready to rock the boat. It appears you were not only ready but you have now actually rocked the boat to the point that the ride is now uncomfortable for the both of you. I am guessing that the fact that your rocking the boat has made you very uncomfortable too has been a bit of a surprise to you. I am also guessing that right about now your gut is screaming at you to stop rocking the boat - so that you can stop feeling this uncomfortable and sick feeling that you are sinking things. Your gut is screaming for you to make things go back to feeling OK again - normal again. 

However - before you stop rocking the boat - ask yourself - do you really want things to go back to normal?? Normal is what brought you here in the first place - right? I understand your compassion and concern for your wife - after all you love her. No-one likes to purposely hurt the one they love. But it is your love for her that places you in the position you are in. 

Exactly what is that position? The position of being committed to her in a marriage - you are committed to this woman that you love - and who loves you. You both have committed to each other to be in this marriage and to give up ALL others. As part of that commitment, you both have committed to be each others one and ONLY sexual partner - and this means that only you two can fulfill each others sexual wants, desires, and needs. You both made this commitment freely and without any force. But somewhere along the line - she changed the rules to that specific commitment. She has decided (probably not consciously in all fairness) that while you can no longer go anywhere else to have sexual relations (because of your commitment to her) - she is no longer willing and has no desire to allow you to have sexual relations with her - at least not often and not of any quality. And now YOU are unhappy. She is not unhappy. She is perfectly fine with the way things are - as long as you don't bring up the issue and bug her about it. She wants you to be happy.. but she wants you to be happy with the way she is happy, and with what she has (again - probably not consciously) decided and dictated your sexual relationship with her will be. 

You have tried to be happy, tried to make this marriage work in spite of your unhappiness with the sexual part of the marriage, but you came to this forum looking for help because apparently you found yourself at the point where the unhappiness with this part of the marriage - has become greater than the happiness with the other parts. Yet - you still want to make this marriage work - you are not ready to give up hope yet. Is this a correct summation of where you were at when you started this thread? If it is - then DON'T follow your gut - instead - KEEP ROCKING THE BOAT! 

Change is uncomfortable for everyone - even for the one who is instigating the change. 

Hold on to this one thought - especially when you gut screams loudly to stop rocking - The change you are seeking WILL benefit your marriage. The change you are seeking will not only benefit you - but it CAN benefit your wife also - and your kids. A happy fulfilling sexual relationship for both partners in a marriage is a HUGE benefit to a marriage and thus to the whole family. Your wife just does not understand that yet. You probably don't even understand that fact yet - but it is true! So keep rocking the boat, tip it over if necessary. Your wife will not change if things are not so uncomfortable for her - so uncomfortable that she also becomes unhappy with this part of the marriage (and for now that is only going to come from you making her unhappy with it) more than she is happy with the other parts! However - she has to see the benefit of changing the way you want her to change.

At some point - she has to be SHOWN (action verb here) the benefit of this change - and she has to buy into it - or she won't make the effort. And if the benefit does not last - neither will the change!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Fact is, same thing happens with both genders and neither should be commended.


I say that because many women, Copper's wife for instance, won't give it up if they don't have desire. His lady buddy Mary, has sex with her husband even though she's not entirely interested. She should be commended in my opinion. In my past life, I've had sex with women I'd rather not. I know its a little hard to believe but it was really a chore when I was not that into it, especially with some repeat clients.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I also want to respond to your turning her down the other night when she offered herself to you! You did the right thing! Do not apologize. From what I have read - the change you are seeking is not JUST more frequent sex. You don't want her to just offer herself, her body for you to use for sex. Instead you want more quality, more participation, more feelings of being desired and wanted, more passion, and more frequency. 

What she was offering and what you turned down - is only more of the same of what you already had and don't want. So you were right to turn it down - and you should turn it down every time she offers that. 

But you need to be clear with her WHY you are turning her down. I think you tried to state your feelings - but it was a bit vague. When you get a chance to talk about it perhaps you could explain why you did what you did - "I appreciated your offering yourself to me - and as tempted as I was to take you up on your offer, because I was really horny - I had to pass. I love you and I desire you, I want to be with you sexually - but I need to feel like you love and desire me and that you want to be with me sexually too. Right now - I don't feel that you feel that way. It feels like you consider sex a chore - something you have to do to get me to be happy again - so we can get back to our normal life. Unfortunately - I am not happy with our normal sexual life - and I have not been for quite awhile. I want - and I need more than what you have been offering the past several years. I have tried to accept things as they are. I have tried to be happy with our marriage in spite of not being happy with our sex life. But I have found that I can not be happy when I don't feel you love me, desire me, and want me. Our sexual activity without those feelings leave me feeling unfulfilled, empty and unloved. While I love you deeply - and I think you still love me - this part of our marriage is not working for me. Something has to change. I think we need to seek some professional help to sort things out. I want us both to be happy and satisfied with our marriage - and right now that is not how I feel. I realize that I am part of the problem. Both of us need to make some changes and I believe we need professional help in order to work this out. Will you go with me if I make an appointment. You should know that I intend to go with you or without you. As I have said - I am not happy or satisfied with the status quo - and I will be seeking help by myself to sort out my feelings and what I want to do - if you don't want to work on this area of our life together." 

Then follow through with action - find a therapist - make an appointment - and invite her to come with you. If she doesn't - then go and begin to work and make the changes you need in your life to find happiness and satisfaction.

Just understand that even if she does go with you - you have a long road and years of bad habits (both of you) to work on changing. Things may and probably will get worse before they get better. As I said previously - change is uncomfortable - and it is only when we see the benefits and buy into the fact that the benefit of changing outweighs the comfortable feeling of staying the same - that will convince us to make the effort to change and stay the course with the new behaviors.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I understand. And am sorry you're going through this.
> 
> FWIW, I don't think she left because you rejected her in the one instance. That might have been the catalyst, but I'm guessing she senses you have reached the end of your line and doesn't herself know what to do. She runs because she really doesn't want to face the issue head on.
> 
> ...


Coop IMHO C2 is not just afraid....She is terrified on many levels

You can't be angry bitter or frustrated with a frightened child can you ?....of course not

I know C2 is an adult but not on a sexual level.

Those issues are obliviously deep IC is the only way to find understanding and or resolution/remedy.

Tell her you are now recognizing her fear and are looking inside yourself to find the ways to better understand.

Back on that high tight rope 

No IC no marriage as I see it

This has to be you lead to effect a way for her to change herself

Clearly you can't do it for her.

55


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> I don't doubt this is common with a lot of men and it would be wonderful to have some method, medication, procedure or something to fix or prevent your spouse from losing sexual desire or for men from going bald. If you have the will and the money, hair transplants will sometimes do a lot for baldness. I don't think they've got much of anything that will re-fire the furnace in a spouse that's simply lost desire. The fact is women who give it up only because their husbands want it are doing a highly unselfish act and should be commended. Her loss of interest is usually not willful on her part and a husband demanding or pleading his case as to how much he wants/need her to be "into it" will not resurrect her desire.
> Ask the ladies if you doubt it.



haha, yeah I've got a bald spot up there. Not completely, it almost looks like a yamica <sp?>lol


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Tasorundo said:


> am the primary wage earning, cook, and organizer of the house hold.


In other words, you're offer no challenge. I said in another thread that women tend to hold on tighter to something that may slip through their fingers. When you're willing to do all the work and assume all the responsibility in the marriage, she knows she can get away with anything and become complacent . Women lose respect for a man who lets them get away with anything. Sex appeal and respect mix very well.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> In short. No.
> 
> 
> Why are strong emotions uncomfortable for you? Your dispassionate logical response does not speak to your wife's emotional base of understanding. You want to reach her, stop subverting your emotions.
> ...


You don't understand this because you're a woman and look at this only from a woman's prospective in divorce court. Copper said that he could not survive a divorce, why?? because it would KILL him financially. I understand this because I'm in the same situation. A man in this situation can't act ...why...because his wife can play the divorce card and collect whenever she wants. The man is forced to do whatever he has to prevent this. He can't be pissed and try to get sex because it might prompt her to go forward with a divorce. What are you left with then? Your high school social studies teacher. 

Unless the divorce laws are fair and men are allowed to take from the marriage what they put in, women are then allowed to basically do whatever the hell they want and get away with it....and get paid to boot. Men are left with just trying to prevent a divorce if they don't want a life in poverty and without their kids. 

It would be helpful if you tried to look at this realistically.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If financially a divorce is not practical just yet, getting even is a good alternative if you're better at managing your emotions than she is. The end result is still mutual assured destruction but she's sitting waiting for the boom to occur while you're the one doing all the "work" if you get my drift. 

I know it's not a palatable choice but so is doing nothing.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

A fast update to bring everyone up to where we are.

C2 returned early this morning, about two. I heard the garage door go up and I met her in the kitchen. When she entered she looked afraid and chagrined. 

MEM... I'm sorry... you told me to distance myself from her a little, to restrain my "protective" instinct. I tried, but I just couldn't do it. 

She stood there and I could see the fear and the guilt. I gave her a few seconds to say something, but when she didn't, I said, "I'm glad you're home."

She came to me and fell into my embrace. C2 cries easily. She cries at chick-flicks, weddings, funerals, sad stories and happy occasions. Obviously, like all of us, she will cry when she is upset. But when she cries, she cries quietly. If her back was to you, there would be no way to tell she is crying except from the occasional sniff. 

When she fell into my embrace, she sobbed. She said she was sorry. I had enough strength to say nothing then, but after a moment she asked if I could forgive her. 

I couldn't stand it and I told her that I did. That I was glad she was back home. 

I thought we were too emotionally wrung out to do anything last night, (I know I was) but before we turned in, we agreed that tonight we had to talk. This couldn't continue this way. 

The other thing of note was as she crawled into bed, she snuggled in close. Unlike two nights ago, she didn't signal that she was wanted me, but she did kiss me, very gently and warmly, on the cheek. I held her as she lay there, on the "wrong" side. I don't know if her hip/back wasn't bothering her, if she was just enduring the discomfort, of if she has been exaggerating the discomfort all along. But it was nice.

She went to sleep and I held her. Maybe 45 minutes to an hour later she rolled over onto her other side, facing away from me, but the cuddle was very nice while it lasted.


Copper


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Copper, 

I see that you are essentially blaming yourself for your wife's choices, and I would like to encourage you to take responsibility for YOUR SIDE of the street, and allow her to be a fully grown adult who is responsible for HER SIDE of the street. 

MEM had provided you with some wonderful guidance that was and still is spot on. Please keep reading and re-reading what MEM writes, as I believe it will be genuinely helpful. 

But I hope to add my own two cents and hopefully they will help you as well. From reading your entire thread, it would seem that this has been a very long-term issue (in other words--the lack of sex didn't just pop up last week). From what I can see, for a long time now the dynamic in your marriage has been like this:
1) You try. Maybe you initiate...maybe you try to talk to her...maybe you bring up counseling... but you try SOMETHING to address sexuality.
2) She rejects the attempt out of hand. No discussion. No consideration for mutuality. She just says NO
3) You persist a bit. 
4) She tests you to see if you still love her.
5) You reassure her by giving into 'the test'
6) She then punishes you in an attempt to get you "back to the way it was"--where she is in control and she has the power. 
7) You are hurt by the punishment and you give in...and the sexlessness continues until .... 

1) You try. 

Can you see how this is a cycle? And even if the steps are not exactly correct, can you see the theory behind what I'm saying? It repeats. It's the same thing over and over and over. 

What I see you doing, is that as a growing adult, you want to become more mature and more healthy and part of your head is saying to you: "Copper...this is not okay. Living like this does not work for me." So you--Copper--are ready to change. 

When change occurs, that means things are DIFFERENT and that means it can be difficult and painful. Envision two islands with a bridge between them: YOU are one island, YOUR WIFE is the other island, and the bridge is "the marriage." Well..YOU are changing. YOUR ISLAND is moving. What happens when there's an earthquake and an island moves, Copper? Some stuff is shook up and maybe the bridge breaks! If it is inflexible and unbending and unmovable... the bridge may break as the first island moves. But the second island can also choose to move WITH the first island (thus keeping the bridge intact)! 

So bear in mind, that is an analogy. It's not perfect, but it does give you a way to envision what is happening to you and your marriage right now. In your true, heart of hearts, you honestly can not live in a sexless marriage anymore, and "pity sex" once or twice a year doesn't cut it either. Some genuine change is occurring INSIDE YOU...and often in a marriage when one changes, the spouse is shook up, scared, and at first your marriage (the bridge) is cracked and put to the stress test. 

Your job now (let me repeat that: YOUR JOB NOW) is to be strong and not go back to "the way it was." For true change to take effect, you have moved your island (which is good) and now you await her decision. Before she makes her choice, she is going to TRY to lasso you and pull you back to where you were! She will try every trick in the book that has worked before, including: leaving, crying, threatening, promising, raging, forcing, deceiving...anything that has worked before to get you back into sexlessness! 

See why your job is to STAY PUT? You have grown, and as long as you are as gentle as possible but firm as necessary, she will be in the position to have to make a decision. She has two choices:
1) She can choose to grow with you and move herself in order to keep the marriage from collapsing. 
2) She can choose to refuse to grow and refuse to address herself and the cost of that choice is that the marriage collapses. 

Copper, I know it feels painful and devastating and scary, but you did the right thing. She knows that she needs to address her sex issues and now she needs to have the time to realize what life would be like without her comfy lifestyle. This is LOVING--to give her every opportunity to grow and mature as a wife and woman. Love your wife enough to stay firm. Just because she has a whirlwind of emotions and threats does not mean you have to join in the whirlwind--let her whirl. You stay nice and calm and steady right where you moved your island and as people have said, let the chips fall as they may.

NOW...this evening when you two "talk" I would like to make a suggestion. The other night you were again trying to bring up sex with her, and she could tell something was different, and she offered what has always worked before: "the same old thing." Tonight when you talk, I suggest that you do appreciate that she offered. I also suggest that you do understand that it's hard for her and thus that any offer at all is a kind of big, scary thing for her. 

I also suggest that make a request (which means it is mutually agreed up and she is free to say no but then has to respond with what she IS willing to do)... Ask if she would be willing to start with STARTING some intimate touches, kisses, hugs, cuddling, etc. and see if those lead to her getting "in the mood." Speaking as a lady who is in my early 50's I do not dislike sex but I no longer go through the day feeling halfway "in the mood" all the time like I used to. Now, if my Dear Hubby makes his little move and it just isn't on my mind yet--I don't want to turn him down but I'm not quite as into it as he is, and I want to be into it with him! So maybe part (a tiny portion) of her thing is she's been so used to working and being a mom and yep she really is tired from it all...that her brain isn't going to sex at the moment. 

So like I tell my Dear Hubby "Honey I'm not quite in the mood and I want to be with you, so can we kiss and make out like teenagers for a little while first?" Then we both get into it and BAM! Again, I'm not saying this is the solution but rather might be part of the mix. She may feel like all she is to you is a sperm holder and that feels so degrading. So offer to take time to reconnect and if she willing to try "getting in the mood" that you're willing to take the time to let her get there. And that from now on, it's MUTUAL orgasm--one for one


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Bottom Line: C2 recognizes you are serious this time. She doesn't know if she can - or wants to - participate in a relationship that offers more balance. This is a stunt, a tantrum, a final effort to stuff the CopperTop genie back into the bottle and get them back to the way they were before.

She's had it "her" way for 10+ years. I understand your rationale for soothing the waters all those years. Now, you are paying the price for those years of un-natural, unequal peace. 

You can't change her - and after all this time of having it her way - she's unlikely to embrace a change in the relationship dynamics. The question is what are you willing to stomach in the name of sustaining the relationship? The only realistic options are retaining the status quo or blowing things up. I don't see her meeting YOU in the middle.

And you know what the real killer in all of this is going to be? You're going to divorce her and THEN she's going to become the woman you always wanted to share your life with. She will lose 100 pounds in two years and she's going to find a guy and she's going to treat him like a king - inside and outside of the bedroom. Do not beat yourself up over this, but do learn from it. The good news is that you will have women flocking to you as well. You will have another chance at happiness. 

I know YOU deserve that woman that your wife is likely to become. I fear your relationship dynamics may preclude that from happening. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

HeartbrokenW said:


> What about your kids? Did she take them?


No.

I told them that "mom" would be home later. True enough at the time. No point in worrying them until I knew what was going on.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Other posters are seeing this as selfish, and while I think that in some senses that is true, I'm guessing that something deeper is going on: something that she doesn't want to admit to you --or perhaps to herself.


I think this is closer to the ultimate truth than just selfishness. This is why I have been "defending" her throughout this thread. If I thought it was petty spite, or selfishness, knowing what to do would be much clearer.

And thank you for the well wishes.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> Do I have the sequence of events correct?
> 
> You assert yourself (yay). When she (passive-aggressively) states "My car is almost out of gas"; you don't go fill it up for her. Good for you!! Why oh why can't she say "Cooper, can you please fill my car with gas tonight?" Think about that.


Yes. But the car thing I don't think was directly related to our brewing conflict. She has used those exact words before because she knows I will offer to go fill her car up.

If she forgets to get something at the store, she will ask me to go get it for her. She knows that simply saying that she forgot something usually isn't enough for me to volunteer.





intheory said:


> Anywayzz, a day (or two??) after this, she tells you that you seem different. *And she offers sex*
> 
> Are you connecting the dots here?
> 
> ...


I connected the dots. That's why I was so suspicious of her come on. That and the fact there was so little warmth in it. It was very much like when I would finally wear her down and she would agree to be intimate. 

"Again? We just did it four months ago! Fine, just hurry up and get it over with!" To be clear, she never said anything like this, but it's the way I felt.

Thank you for the compliment, but I feel like I'm just an average guy who happens to have his weight under control. 


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Last night - was a step forward. 

You showed love

You weren't needy

Love is good
Need is bad 





CopperTop said:


> A fast update to bring everyone up to where we are.
> 
> C2 returned early this morning, about two. I heard the garage door go up and I met her in the kitchen. When she entered she looked afraid and chagrined.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Copper,
> 
> I see that you are essentially blaming yourself for your wife's choices, and I would like to encourage you to take responsibility for YOUR SIDE of the street, and allow her to be a fully grown adult who is responsible for HER SIDE of the street.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice. 

This is what I try to do. I don't initiate as we go to bed. I normally would start trying to seduce her earlier, right after dinner for example, to give her time to get into the mood. 

Then later, in bed, I allow her to set the pace. I will hold, cuddle and tease as long as she wants me to. I enjoy giving her pleasure and I place hers above my own.

I have tried everything to allow her to enjoy herself. I WANT her to enjoy her self so she will want to do it again.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Last night - was a step forward.
> 
> You showed love
> 
> ...


I don't think (hope) that I have ever come across as needy. I don't beg for her favors. I would try to seduce, she would reject, I would drop it until the next night.

In other ways, if she wanted to do something without me, I was sure... go ahead. I never want to be one of those clinging husbands that have no life other than their wives. And I don't want her being like that with me.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> And you know what the real killer in all of this is going to be? You're going to divorce her and THEN she's going to become the woman you always wanted to share your life with. She will lose 100 pounds in two years and she's going to find a guy and she's going to treat him like a king - inside and outside of the bedroom.


This would be just my luck too. When I was introduced to her I thought she was jaw dropping beautiful. 

What I wouldn't give to have that back again... even 25 years later. I'm sure she would be just as stunning as she ever was.

A number of years ago she went on a trip with our daughter and the girl scout troop to New York. When she got back, she was so pleased with herself. She found out that she is about ten years older than the next oldest mom in the troop, and the other women didn't believe her when she told them her age. 


Copper


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex is probably right, unfortunately.

After all these years, she has calibrated (even if unconsciously) exactly the minimum she needs to do to keep you around.

You're showing her something new now, which is causing her to panic, but her instinct will be to go back to the old playbook. 

Your instinct will be to cave.

If you finally bail out, it will be very obvious to her that she will never keep another man with what she has offered to you. 

She's had 20 yrs to grind you down. No other guy would take her up on this type of dynamic.

The key for you should be this:

Demand the same thing for yourself that she would offer to a complete stranger if you were gone.

Anything less than this is cheating yourself.

She claims to love you more than anyone else, right?

So why would she give more to a total stranger than you?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Love is good
> Need is bad


The irony of this statement is that *need* is precisely what brought him here in the first place. If he didn't have this need, he wouldn't have any problem at all.

Yet no one would dare suggest (and rightly so) that he try and kill his need. No, all of this is about how to fulfill it. 

There is nothing wrong with need. There is something wrong with pretending that you don't have any to create the illusion of being impervious. At least, IMHO.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tex, I'm not sure that is likely to proceed this way - she has not made any effort to seek happiness this way and she is just as likely to regress as a single than advance with goals like those you mentioned. 

If she was driven by self motivation she would not have come back at 2 am in this manner. It's more likely to go the other way due to her fear...


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

john117 said:


> Tex, I'm not sure that is likely to proceed this way - she has not made any effort to seek happiness this way and she is just as likely to regress as a single than advance with goals like those you mentioned.
> 
> If she was driven by self motivation she would not have come back at 2 am in this manner. It's more likely to go the other way due to her fear...


Yes, this is plausible. A total cratering without CopperTop support is certainly one way it can play out. 

My sense, though, is she does exactly what needs to be done in order to get her needs met. With CopperTop, she hasn't been pushed to do much. My hunch - and I could be way wrong - is that she will shape up as much as is needed to entice her next victim -er, partner.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> The key for you should be this:
> 
> Demand the same thing for yourself that she would offer to a complete stranger if you were gone.


My best guess? She would return home and take care of her aging mother, and there would be no one else. 

I have always felt that our family plays second fiddle to her mother and that part of her family. It's not obvious and overbearing, but there are little signs.

Like our first home, the one she liked the best, just happened to be only five blocks from her mother's. How she didn't mind farming me out to her mom for labor every weekend. How, even now, she agonizes over that part of her family more than this family. How she doesn't mind driving 19 hours each way to spend a long weekend with her mother and sister, but couldn't be bothered to spend a week in the mountains with me in one of my attempts to get our marriage sorted out. 

I'm pretty sure she still feels guilty for leaving her behind when we moved to North Carolina. I hope I'm wrong, but that's what my gut is telling me, and that would be a shame.


Copper


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Her family situation is a great example (as you realize) because it shows she is capable of making a huge effort to maintain relationships she values.

Unfortunately, the contrast to your relationship is unfavorable.

I wonder what her mother's relationship was/is like with her father.

Is her family a "girls' club" where the men are generally subservient?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> My best guess? She would return home and take care of her aging mother, and there would be no one else.
> 
> I have always felt that our family plays second fiddle to her mother and that part of her family. It's not obvious and overbearing, but there are little signs.
> 
> ...


Hi Copper,

Would she even be able to do this? If you get divorced would she leave the kids and move 19 hours away?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Her family situation is a great example (as you realize) because it shows she is capable of making a huge effort to maintain relationships she values.
> 
> Unfortunately, the contrast to your relationship is unfavorable.
> 
> ...


I can't answer that. He had passed away before I met her. But all three (wife, sister-in-law and mother) speak highly of him.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Hi Copper,
> 
> Would she even be able to do this? If you get divorced would she leave the kids and move 19 hours away?


The oldest is an adult.

The youngest? She said she would take him with her once... but since then he has enrolled in a special hybred college/high school at 15, and I HOPE she would understand the need to leave him here with me.


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,

Maybe it's better said this way. 

Marriages get overly one sided/parasitic when the giver prizes stability - even bad stability - above all else. 

That need - for stability - is what has compromised all of Coppers attempts to improve his marriage. 






always_alone said:


> The irony of this statement is that *need* is precisely what brought him here in the first place. If he didn't have this need, he wouldn't have any problem at all.
> 
> Yet no one would dare suggest (and rightly so) that he try and kill his need. No, all of this is about how to fulfill it.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with need. There is something wrong with pretending that you don't have any to create the illusion of being impervious. At least, IMHO.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

At 15 the courts would let him choose absent clear signs of an unfit parent.




CopperTop said:


> The oldest is an adult.
> 
> The youngest? She said she would take him with her once... but since then he has enrolled in a special hybred college/high school at 15, and I HOPE she would understand the need to leave him here with me.
> 
> ...


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> *How she doesn't mind driving 19 hours each way to spend a long weekend with her mother and sister,* but couldn't be bothered to spend a week in the mountains with me in one of my attempts to get our marriage sorted out.


But when she's at home; can't even be bothered to gas up her own car!!!

Hêll, if I had a live-in slave; I wouldn't do any of that shÎt either.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> Maybe it's better said this way.
> 
> ...


I can't argue with this, and I do prize stability. So this IS my fault! 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> But when she's at home; can't even be bothered to gas up her own car!!!
> 
> Hêll, if I had a live-in slave; I wouldn't do any of that shÎt either.


To be fair, "asking" me to put gas in her car is the exception not the rule. 

<EDIT>
Now, if she has asked me to put gas in her car this morning... that would have made me cross. 
</EDIT>


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> At 15 the courts would let him choose absent clear signs of an unfit parent.


I know. But it would unfair if the parents were pulling on him. Better they be on the same page and suggest what would be best for him and then let him reject that if he chooses.

I am fairly sure that he would choose to stay with me. He and I are very close and it would mean he didn't have to give up his attendance in the school he loves.


Copper


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> Maybe it's better said this way.
> 
> ...


It is definitely better said this way.

But is it really a *need* for stability? Or a desire or tendency to smooth things over, to choose peace over asserting his actual needs?

Maybe this all seems pedantic, but I don't much like disparaging actual needs. And there's a tendency, I think, to advise men that they shouldn't have any (except the sexual ones, of course). That strikes me as wrong. 

Although, I would completely agree that being overly needy is bad for everyone


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> It is definitely better said this way.
> 
> But is it really a *need* for stability? Or a desire or tendency to smooth things over, to choose peace over asserting his actual needs?
> 
> ...


In my case, no. I don't NEED stability, but I do value it. I'm a plan your work, work your plan kind of guy. I don't like disruptions and like things to progress smoothly. 

I also don't like to upset people. I try to see things from the other person's perspective. I try to say things as diplomatically as possible and I'm willing to compromise on most things. 


Copper


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> and I'm willing to compromise on most things.
> 
> 
> Copper


I hope you're beginning to recognize that this is not always a good trait. One could argue you've compromised your way into a good solid decade of marital misery. 

Nice guys like me (and I suspect you) wear these traits like a badge of honor. And usually they are. Applied in the extreme, however, and they become a fault that invites people to walk all over us. Your wife has done this to you for the majority of your marriage. She is to blame for taking advantage of the situation to her own benefit. You are to blame for letting her do it. Congratulations on your first steps in righting this wrong.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with compromise - in fact it is what marriage is all about. But when one person is doing all the compromising concerning their sexual relationship - it is no longer a compromise, is it?

:scratchhead:


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In theory,


The post below really doesn't capture the spirit of this interaction.

This is mostly an acts of service love language thing. 

And the whole reason it works is: 
The person asking - doesn't directly ask - because they want to know that mentioning an issue is sufficient - their partner loves them enough to take care of it - and happily do so. 

When everyone is happy - baseline communication is actually:
- Do you love me?
- Absolutely!

When someone loves you a lot and shows it frequently - these types of situations don't feel master/slave at all. 







intheory said:


> But when she's at home; can't even be bothered to gas up her own car!!!
> 
> Hêll, if I had a live-in slave; I wouldn't do any of that shÎt either.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

MEM,

You are much more mature and advanced than I am. I'm not being patronizing or sarcastic.

I LOATHE indirect, sneaky suggestions.

But the other dimension (that I have experienced, my bias, that's a given), is that it's a way of not having _to ask_.

Because when you ask for something it right away shows what the dynamic is.

When you make a passive-aggressive "statement" it means:


I cannot or will not do this thing.

I want you to take responsibility for it.

I'm not willing to "lower" myself by asking; that makes me look incapable-and-or-lazy, and makes you look like you do all the work (the actual truth). So, I'm going to make a general statement; and you better figure out what I want and hop to it.

In a nutshell, "asking" is an act of humility. Make sense?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> I hope you're beginning to recognize that this is not always a good trait. One could argue you've compromised your way into a good solid decade of marital misery.
> 
> Nice guys like me (and I suspect you) wear these traits like a badge of honor. And usually they are. Applied in the extreme, however, and they become a fault that invites people to walk all over us. Your wife has done this to you for the majority of your marriage. She is to blame for taking advantage of the situation to her own benefit. You are to blame for letting her do it. Congratulations on your first steps in righting this wrong.


MEM pointed out a hundred posts ago a stark reality that I hadn't considered. I was trying to protect her feelings, and while one little white lie may not hurt anything, hundreds of little white lies piled one upon another, is a different matter. 

THIS, I think, was my biggest downfall. And I didn't even know I was doing it.

But now that I do know this, I can police myself and stop the white lies before they turn into a big black mess.

For now I'm going to have to compromise. There is no hope of me getting everything I want from C2 in the short term. So I will compromise, take what I can get until she becomes comfortable with her new role, then nudge and push her again, searching for another compromise.

I'm going to try to do to her what she did to me, but in reverse. I'm going to boil HER frog. <insert evil laugh here>


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your timing is flawless. 

Last night M2 comes home from work. Walks in the door on the phone - I gently shoo her out of the kitchen since I'm watching Jeopardy on the kitchen TV. 

She comes back in - still on the phone - pauses from her call and says: We need to put the yogurt (it was on the counter) back in the fridge. 

I look over smile and say: WE do (emphasis on the word WE) 

M2 starts laughing and tells her friend what just happened: H just reminded me that my hands and legs work just as well as his do. Said this as she put the yogurt away and mouthed 'sorry' at me. I just smiled and shook my head. A little gentle steering goes a long way.

----------
But I get your point. Ambiguity is bad. And arrogance is bad. And the combination is appalling. 

And manipulation - really bad. 







intheory said:


> MEM,
> 
> You are much more mature and advanced than I am. I'm not being patronizing or sarcastic.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

After C2 raptures the first time - you need to focus on getting yourself to the finish line. Being left hanging is not ok and it sends the message that you believe you don't matter,





CopperTop said:


> MEM pointed out a hundred posts ago a stark reality that I hadn't considered. I was trying to protect her feelings, and while one little white lie may not hurt anything, hundreds of little white lies piled one upon another, is a different matter.
> 
> THIS, I think, was my biggest downfall. And I didn't even know I was doing it.
> 
> ...


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> MEM pointed out a hundred posts ago a stark reality that I hadn't considered. I was trying to protect her feelings, and while one little white lie may not hurt anything, hundreds of little white lies piled one upon another, is a different matter.
> 
> THIS, I think, was my biggest downfall. And I didn't even know I was doing it.
> 
> ...


You have to compromise? Either she will attend therapy and work on the issue with you or she won't. What is there to compromise on right now? Isn't that all you are asking for at this point? Yes it will take time to get to where you want to be, and you may possibly never get all you want. But right now, there should be no compromise on going together and seeing defined efforts made. As for your part, you have to show her the benefits of her efforts and the consequences of her lack of efforts. If she sees no benefits and no consequences, you will see no change. Period!


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

No! No! No! You do not have to take what you can get. Not now, not ever! Stop that kind of thinking - it is what got you where you are at right now! If you don't change that faulty thinking pattern and show her you no longer think that way, you might as well throw in the towel now!


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

She accomplished her goal be running. She has scared you enough, that you are already back tracking.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> After C2 raptures the first time - you need to focus on getting yourself to the finish line. Being left hanging is not ok and it sends the message that you believe you don't matter,


MEM,

I will try. But once the cascade starts, there isn't a lot of time. I wasn't kidding, or exaggerating, about it can be all over in as little as 30 seconds after the first one takes her. I have tried different things to slow this cascade down. I can stop it, but I have found no way to slow her down and draw it out. 

Once the cascade stops, wherever that might be, she dries rapidly. Then I'm stuck. 

This is the problem. It's not that I don't want to, but often I simply don't have the time to go from stone cold to finished in the time I have. Add in the fact that her lack of response and general demeanor cools the blood, and it's a hard thing to accomplish.


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> For now I'm going to have to compromise. There is no hope of me getting everything I want from C2 in the short term. So I will compromise, take what I can get until she becomes comfortable with her new role, then nudge and push her again, searching for another compromise.



And the risk here is that such incremental solutions don't scale up very well... Plywood and canvas airplanes never got us past their limits, piston powered planes never got us they the sound barrier, and so on. In fact the more we try to go thru the sound barrier with the current approach the more painful it got.

That is what a breakthrough is.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> MEM,
> 
> I will try. But once the cascade starts, there isn't a lot of time. I wasn't kidding, or exaggerating, about it can be all over in as little as 30 seconds after the first one takes her. I have tried different things to slow this cascade down. I can stop it, but I have found no way to slow her down and draw it out.
> 
> ...


Noooo! You are NOT stuck. I didn't think anyone means for you to get in and finish in the 30 seconds there are before she gets dry, no.

You matter. There are other ways for you to have a complete sexual experience. I think that is what people mean. Honestly, if she won't do oral or hand for you, she needs to use lube. I've said it before in this thread, thousands of couples HAVE to use lube every single time. I know you say she isn't selfish, but the issue of you not getting off when you do have sex leads me to question that, because she doesn't give a rat's butt about that.

I also think it's a huge issue: You are doing all of this work to try to up the sexual frequency, but the elephant in the room is that you didn't even orgasm during sex because of her refusal to partner you.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

...so in effect, you are working toward more opportunities to be left hanging. 

It needs to change. Can't happen again. No partner should be left hanging like that.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

The more I read, the more it sounds like "C2" has mastered what my aunt Annabelle De La Motte told her daughter in law about handling my cousin, "Belle-fille, get dat boy of mine by de balls and his heart and mind will follow". 
Copper, good luck to you my man. You're going to need it.


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

So... have we actually addressed the extremely childish flight maneuver? Or was it pouty face and all is forgiven?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,
Did you call/text her and ask her to come home last night or did she come to her senses all by herself?




[/B]


CopperTop said:


> MEM,
> 
> I will try. But once the cascade starts, there isn't a lot of time. I wasn't kidding, or exaggerating, about it can be all over in as little as 30 seconds after the first one takes her. I have tried different things to slow this cascade down. I can stop it, but I have found no way to slow her down and draw it out.
> 
> ...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> For now I'm going to have to compromise.


1. You Don't have to do anything!

2. For now you ought to be relentless and unyielding!

if you want more of the same compromise.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> So... have we actually addressed the extremely childish flight maneuver? Or was it pouty face and all is forgiven?


I think it's the latter, unfortunately CopperTop feels he has to compromise.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> MEM,
> 
> I will try. But once the cascade starts, there isn't a lot of time. I wasn't kidding, or exaggerating, about it can be all over in as little as 30 seconds after the first one takes her. I have tried different things to slow this cascade down. I can stop it, but I have found no way to slow her down and draw it out.
> 
> ...



There is nothing wrong with you having your "crisis" first and then taking care of her, especially since any cardiac exertion totally depletes her. Which, by the way, is an extreme warning sign of dire consequences.

Warm her up and then get to it. Once your satisfied, you take care of her as often as she wishes.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper- we're in opposite land now.

What's your first instinct when making love to your wife? Her pleasure, right?

Forget that. She is not even interested in sex-- why do you care more about her pleasure than she does?

Get yourself off FIRST. Go to town, enjoy it. Draw her in with your pleasure, not your furious effort to please her.

Maybe even just finish and roll over and go to sleep. That would really blow her mind, don't you think?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Copper- we're in opposite land now.
> 
> What's your first instinct when making love to your wife? Her pleasure, right?
> 
> ...



I agree, except for the bolded. Never ever a good idea to completely ignore her potential pleasure, but nothing wrong with ensuring yours happens too.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> There is nothing wrong with you having your "crisis" first and then taking care of her, *especially since any cardiac exertion totally depletes her. Which, by the way, is an extreme warning sign of dire consequences.*
> 
> Warm her up and then get to it. Once your satisfied, you take care of her as often as she wishes.


Copper,

You know this ^^^, right? Does your wife? She's highly educated, if I remember correctly. So, yes, she must understand how precarious her health situation is.

If she has a heart attack or stroke, survives, and then has to be nursed, bathed, relegated to a Hoveround; how would you feel about that?

When you are married, you don't just take care of your health for your own sake.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> Did you call/text her and ask her to come home last night or did she come to her senses all by herself?


I didn't even respond to her text.

I try to understand her point of view and reach some compromise on most things. But when she draws a line in the sand like this, when she says, "This is the way it's going to be whether you like it or not," that's when I stop being so understanding.

She has draw the line in the sand a couple of times in the past, and gotten the same type of response. I love her, and want to be with her, but I won't be bullied.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> There is nothing wrong with you having your "crisis" first and then taking care of her, especially since any cardiac exertion totally depletes her. Which, by the way, is an extreme warning sign of dire consequences.
> 
> Warm her up and then get to it. Once your satisfied, you take care of her as often as she wishes.





Anon1111 said:


> Copper- we're in opposite land now.
> 
> What's your first instinct when making love to your wife? Her pleasure, right?
> 
> ...



It's not that simple. 

Imagine if you will if your husband gave you no feedback. He wouldn't touch you or respond to your touches. Imagine if he wouldn't allow you to see him and kept the bed linens pulled up tightly around his neck so that you had to do everything in a very awkward and uncomfortable position. Imagine if he wouldn't allow you to kiss him. Imagine if he only became erect moments before he climaxes.

This is what I have to deal with. She is dry to semi-dry until she begins to climb to her rapture. She gives me no feedback, nothing to get my blood flowing, so I am not fully ready either.

I need her movements and soft sighs to charge me up, to get me going. This only happens as she begins to peak. Otherwise she is inert. The only way I know my touch is having any effect at all is her breathing slowly speeds up as I work on her.

The other, the total collapse after she peaks... I don't fully understand. Some may be physical, but not all. Unless I get her heart going like a hummingbird's, which I doubt giving her other responses, she isn't working that hard.

I'm guessing that after she finishes, she is relaxed and that light-switch like sleep mechanism thing she has simply does what it does. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> You know this ^^^, right? Does your wife? She's highly educated, if I remember correctly. So, yes, she must understand how precarious her health situation is.
> 
> ...


I know. 

I wouldn't like having to nurse her, but that would solve a great many of my problems. Then it would be clear that she was unable to meet my needs and I would just have to accept it.

That would make the swallowing a little easier.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

We had the talk last night. What a train wreck. There were so many tears, and not all of them were C2's. The only good that came out of it is I have little clearer understanding of what is driving her.


Problems uncovered or confirmed:

1) She has some self image problems. Her weight bothers her a great deal. I already suspected this, but I have a hard confirmation. She doesn't like the way she looks, and that is why she won't allow me to see her. She said she doesn't understand why I still want her. That leads into problem...

2) When I totally backed off last year, at first she was relieved. But then she became worried. She doesn't think I want her any more. Not as a woman. She said she knows I love her, but she no longer feels like I want her. When I pushed back on her the other night, that was just a confirmation of what she was feeling. Which causes her to believe problem...

3) She thinks I am getting something on the side. Since I was no longer interested in her, then that is just one more bit of evidence that I had to be getting it from somewhere. The reason I am doing that is because...

4) I don't care about her needs. She can't understand why I'm so "obsessed" with sex. She feels like that is the only thing I care about and that nothing else she does matters. 

I addressed each of these concerns as much as I could. I'm not sure I made any headway at all. But I CAN'T fix any of these. They are not MY problem to fix. I don't know what, if anything, I can do.


Our plan to move forward:

She is desperately afraid of seeing a marriage counselor. She "does want to talk about our sex life to a perfect stranger." I can understand that. I'm not that keen on it myself, but we have to do something.

What we agreed to do is try to work this through ourselves. She promised to make a good faith effort. But if there hasn't been significant progress by our anniversary (June), then we would seek professional help.

She squirmed and wriggled, but finally, reluctantly, agreed. Come June, I'm sure she will dig in her heels again, and is using this as a delaying measure, but I'm hoping that the threat of doing something she doesn't want to do is enough to cause her to really TRY this time. 

We also agreed that we were going to start talking, openly, about this. Last night was the first. We are going to talk about this for thirty minutes each night in an attempt to find a solution that we can both accept.

We agreed that she would continue to work diligently on her weight. We agreed that if she has a slip that she wouldn't take it as a sign that she was weak and a bad person and that all was lost. She would get back on the horse and try again. 

We agreed that I would begin to initiate again. Anytime I want to be with her, I will make my intentions clear. She can reject me if she wants, but I will try. She is NOT to become defensive about it. She NOT to perceive it as my pressuring her. She is NOT to start withdrawing from me.

I am going to continue to touch her. Just because I touch her butt, hold her, kiss her, or in any other way show my care and love for her, is she to accept them for what they are. Just like she does now. She is NOT to become defensive about it. She NOT to perceive it as my pressuring her. She is NOT to start withdrawing from me. 

We are going to cuddle. EVERY night, we are going to cuddle for at least a little while. We have agreed that if I become erect, that should be considered an involuntary reaction and she is not to be offended by it. She is NOT to become defensive about it. She NOT to perceive it as my pressuring her. She is NOT to start withdrawing from me.

When/if she accepts my initiation, she is ONLY to do so because she wants to. NOT because she feels she has too. Because we will then be making love because SHE wants to, we are going to try to introduce some variety in an attempt to find something SHE likes. If she doesn't like it, or doesn't want to proceed with it, that's fine, but she is NOT to immediately withdraw and shut down. This is to be treated as a learning process and should be fun.

Lastly, we are going to use lubrication. This was the only thing I wouldn't compromise on. Today I will be going out and buying one of every type on the shelves, including a stop at the grocery for coconut oil which seems to be a popular option. 

If I am honest with myself, I don't think any of this is going to work. I think in June we are going to be, more or less, right where we are now. I think in June she is going to fight desperately hard to avoid going to a counselor, but I have given her three months to get right with this idea. 

I'm hoping that simply talking to me, each night, will loosen her up about talking about our problems. Enough so that maybe we can salvage this relationship.

I'm hopeful, but not confident, we can reach a point where we both can be happy. If we can't, I don't know what I will do. Neither alternative is appealing.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It all depends on your conversation and, ehem, extraction, skills. I consider myself a top notch people reader and behavioral analyst, not to mention a skilled conversationalist (and a modest one too :lol: ) but it's still not conducive to building up trust if she's building up walls inside walls and I see thru them instantly. Stalemate galore. 

I would say the way to avoid being in the same spot in June that you are today you need to track - sorry - progress. I'm not talking Excel or SPSS but some way where you keep track of what's going on. Probably a diary. I would encourage her to keep a separate diary. A paragraph or two a day should not be too time consuming. Keep it qualitative and not quantitative.

Meanwhile get yourself in IC to see how you can "stay the course"... And also line up a competent MC so when June comes it's not a mad dash to find one.

Encourage time together for calorie burning. I've had phenomenal success with cycling. Once she is at 275 lb or lower she can get a standard bike and that burns some serious calories. Much as I "hate" cycling with my wife there's something to be said about riding together 20 miles a day shooting for 25-30 on weekends... It's good and fun.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> What we agreed to do is try to work this through ourselves. She promised to make a good faith effort. But if there hasn't been significant progress by our anniversary (June), then we would seek professional help. She squirmed and wriggled, but finally, reluctantly, agreed.


What you can tell her Copper is that as long as she gives it up twice a week you'll let her slide on the MC. You forgot to add in that she has to get gastric bypass surgery to lose excess fat. If she gets the weight down to a reasonable amount, she may feel sexy again when she notices men turning the heads when she walk by.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Encourage time together for calorie burning. I've had phenomenal success with cycling. Once she is at 275 lb or lower she can get a standard bike and that burns some serious calories. Much as I "hate" cycling with my wife there's something to be said about riding together 20 miles a day shooting for 25-30 on weekends... It's good and fun.


We are doing this now. We do part of the dog's walk together. She also uses the cardio machine nearly everynight.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> What you can tell her Copper is that as long as she gives it up twice a week you'll let her slide on the MC. You forgot to add in that she has to get gastric bypass surgery to lose excess fat. If she gets the weight down to a reasonable amount, she may feel sexy again when she notices men turning the heads when she walk by.


But we are back to coercion again if I do that. No, it has to voluntary or not at all.

I'm hoping as the weight comes off she will feel more desirable. She has a few more grey hairs, but her face is as beautiful as ever. As her figure comes back maybe she will remember how stunning she was... and realize she can be again.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I have a picture of C2, taken just after I met her, but before we started seeing each other regularly or had become intimate. She was going to either her, or her boyfriend's at the time, high school reunion. Anyway, she is dressed up and looks like a zillion bucks. I'm thinking about printing it out and sticking it on the fridge.

Thoughts?

I can't decide if it will encourage her, discourage her, or she will be indifferent. Oh, and boyfriend is in it.


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Our plan to move forward:


It is good that you have a concrete plan, and I think it wise that you've included a clear agreement that you will not pressure her and she will not withdraw. 

At the same time, though, it strikes me that she will need to be pushed, at least somewhat, if she is going to move forward.

Not pressured, mind you, as this will just trigger the same old defense mechanisms that all you want is sex, and she isn't good enough as a woman.

But pushed. Because if she can't learn to enjoy being touched and touching you, then sex will always be a chore that she does to keep you placated.

I would suggest you consider adding to your plan two things:
1) She will learn to change her self-talk from "I am fat, ugly, unworthy" to a more positive message that affirms her worth, just as she is, whether she loses weight or not. You can also help her with this by giving compliments, etc.

2) She will explore her sexuality through actual touch. This can be her touching herself or you touching her, whatever she would rather. And it need not involve the primary sexual zones right away, if that makes her uncomfortable, but start slowly with other erogenous zones: neck, thighs, underarms, feet, whatever makes her feel sexy and good. The more she learns to feel safe with and enjoy touch, the more she will seek it out. 

And the corollary to this is that she also learn to touch you. Again, not necessarily starting with the primary sex organs, but just exploring your body and seeing what pleases you.


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## QS1 (Jan 30, 2015)

I would say no, don't stick that picture on the fridge. To me, it would be discouraging. I am not 18 and never will be again. And being skinny and attractive back then was easy. All she can do is be the best she can now, and it will never compare to how she was back then.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I have a picture of C2, taken just after I met her, before we started seeing each other regularly or had become intimate. She was going to either her high school reunion boyfriends at the time.
> 
> Anyway, she is dresses up and looks like a zillion bucks. I'm thjnking about printing it out and sticking it on the fridge.
> 
> ...


It is my belief that this will only reinforce her negative views of herself as she is now. She needs to feel worthy, beautiful, safe with herself, as she is. If all of her self worth is tied up in how slim she is and the external validation of whether others perceive her as sexy, she will always be vulnerable to back-sliding and will never actually overcome the insecurities and fears that caused her to put the weight on in the first place.

If she learns to love herself as she is, she will be able to shed her protective walls, and with them, her weight.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I can't decide if it will encourage her, discourage her, or be indifferent. Oh, and boyfriend is in it.



Photoshop is your friend  for the boyfriend in picture part I mean.

Maybe crop just the head part?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> It is good that you have a concrete plan, and I think it wise that you've included a clear agreement that you will not pressure her and she will not withdraw.
> 
> At the same time, though, it strikes me that she will need to be pushed, at least somewhat, if she is going to move forward.
> 
> ...



This is excellent Always!!!!

This is the same advice used to help CSA overcome shame and arousal suppression.

You know...a recent study found that more than 50% of the morbidly obese suffered child abuse and or child sexual abuse. Something to think about...

A woman CAN overcome whatever barriers she has to enjoying a full sex life, but only if she believes it to be important to do so.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> It is good that you have a concrete plan, and I think it wise that you've included a clear agreement that you will not pressure her and she will not withdraw.
> 
> At the same time, though, it strikes me that she will need to be pushed, at least somewhat, if she is going to move forward.
> 
> ...


That is the point of the cuddling. To try to reconnect at the physical level.





always_alone said:


> I would suggest you consider adding to your plan two things:
> 1) She will learn to change her self-talk from "I am fat, ugly, unworthy" to a more positive message that affirms her worth, just as she is, whether she loses weight or not. You can also help her with this by giving compliments, etc.


I agree. I've tried to help her with this, but I don't know if it has helped or not. 





always_alone said:


> 2) She will explore her sexuality through actual touch. This can be her touching herself or you touching her, whatever she would rather. And it need not involve the primary sexual zones right away, if that makes her uncomfortable, but start slowly with other erogenous zones: neck, thighs, underarms, feet, whatever makes her feel sexy and good. The more she learns to feel safe with and enjoy touch, the more she will seek it out.


I hope you are right. She will let me touch her now. It took a while, and more than a little encouragement from me, before she would allow me to touch her womanhood. But that was years ago when she finally allowed that. 

She likes to be stroked down the back of her leg and behind her knee, and down the back of her arm and along her ribs. But she still holds herself back rather than just going with it. I wish I knew what to do to allow her to break free of her chains. 





always_alone said:


> And the corollary to this is that she also learn to touch you. Again, not necessarily starting with the primary sex organs, but just exploring your body and seeing what pleases you.


I'm hoping to make progress here. But this will require her to take some active participation, and ever since the second child, there just hasn't been any interest on her part.

The frustrating thing is, she wasn't always like this. Yes, she was never a wild woman, but before our first child, she was much more engaged and active participant in our love making.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> You know...a recent study found that more than 50% of the morbidly obese suffered child abuse and or child sexual abuse. Something to think about...


Maybe, but I don't get that vibe from her family. Don't forget, almost all of this weight came from bearing children and not loosing the weight afterwards, not eating herself to this weight.





Anon Pink said:


> A woman CAN overcome whatever barriers she has to enjoying a full sex life, but only if she believes it to be important to do so.


I hope you're right.


Copper


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

When you discuss sex you talk about the elephant in the room.and that is her lack of sexual expression. Then you suggest that several times a week you both sit on the bed facing each other and maintain eye contact as you stroke one another's ....arm. Just the arm. No sex, no sex talk. You just look and touch non sexually.

This will be hard for her. Prepare for battle. If she does this, she won't be able to hide. More on that later...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> But we are back to coercion again if I do that. No, it has to voluntary or not at all.
> 
> I'm hoping as the weight comes off she will feel more desirable. She has a few more grey hairs, but her face is as beautiful as ever. As her figure comes back maybe she will remember how stunning she was... and realize she can be again.
> Copper


Come on Dawg. Thats not coercion, it quid pro quo; an option you're giving her. Be like me telling my grown kid, "if you come by a cut my yard, you won't have to repay that $50 bucks you borrowed". Moreover, its saying that if she starts giving it up on a regular basis, there is no need for MC. So if you're serious about backing up what you say, (improvement, meaning regular sex, by anniversary or MC) that option is already on the table for her.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> When you discuss sex you talk about the elephant in the room.and that is her lack of sexual expression. Then you suggest that several times a week you both sit on the bed facing each other and maintain eye contact as you stroke one another's ....arm. Just the arm. No sex, no sex talk. You just look and touch non sexually.
> 
> This will be hard for her. Prepare for battle. If she does this, she won't be able to hide. More on that later...


I am keen to hear more about this. I'm curious why this will be a "battle." The reason I wonder is because when we are walking the dog, for example, I have the leash in one hand, her hand in the other. We hold hand most of the time when we are walking together.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Come on Dawg. Thats not coercion, it quid pro quo; an option you're giving her. Be like me telling my grown kid, "if you come by a cut my yard, you won't have to repay that $50 bucks you borrowed". Moreover, its saying that if she starts giving it up on a regular basis, there is no need for MC. So if you're serious about backing up what you say, (improvement, meaning regular sex, by anniversary or MC) that option is already on the table for her.


I understand what you are saying, but there is also a thing called quid pro quo harassment, the exchange of something for sexual favors.

The thing is, it's more than just the sex. It's the closeness. If she is giving herself to me for the sole reason to avoid something she wants to do even less, then she still doesn't want to be with me. That's what I had before, intercourse without connection. Sex without love. I want more than that.

Thank you for the suggestion, but I think I will pass on that.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

You are getting some great advice here. 

You must do exercises where the sensual touching (neck, upper back, inner thigh) is MUTUAL. 

Honestly - doubt I could even perform with a woman who would not touch me like that. 

If a woman didn't LIKE touching me in that way - I would not continue to have sex with her. 

YOU MATTER TOO






CopperTop said:


> That is the point of the cuddling. To try to reconnect at the physical level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> You are getting some great advice here.
> 
> ...


Now you see why I was... uh... having trouble. Honestly, this is what I miss more than anything else. I can always take matter into my own hands, so to speak, if I have to, but I can't replace the feeling of being wanted.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is where you say:

Going forward, when we connect I NEED to have at least 15-20 minutes of us touching each other before we get to the main event. 

--------------
And mentally note the time when you start. if she tries to rush you - just say: I'm not ready yet. 

FWIW: I don't see this working without C2 getting counseling. 





CopperTop said:


> Now you see why I was... uh... having trouble. Honestly, this is what I miss more than anything else. I can always take matter into my own hands, so to speak, if I have to, but I can't replace the feeling of being wanted.
> 
> 
> Copper


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I cannot remember for sure. But would Passionate Marriage by Shnark be a good book for this couple?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I understand what you are saying, but there is also a thing called quid pro quo harassment, the exchange of something for sexual favors.
> Copper


Strange to hear you put it like Copper. I can't quite get my mind around telling your wife if she's serious about ending a sexless part of ya'lls marriage by having regular sex with you, thus keeping her promise and avoiding the dreaded M/C, as sexual harassment. I thought ya'll agreed on something along those lines. Hence, 

_"She promised to make a good faith effort. But if there hasn't been significant progress by our anniversary (June), then we would seek professional help."_ (post 546)

There are a number of other statements in that post where intentions, touching, and other things referring to what its going to take fixing/improving sex and love making problems between you two , so I don't think my advice to ask her to prove her commitment would, or could, be construed as sexual harassment of your wife by you; at least not in a court of law. But you know your limits and that's what you need to go with. 

At the risk of be presumptuous, may I ask what you plan to do if the June deadline roll around and there is no improvement coupled with her refusal to accompany you to M/C. I wouldn't advise waiting until June and getting caught without a plan and finding yourself in the same boat.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Strange to hear you put it like Copper. I can't quite get my mind around telling your wife if she's serious about ending a sexless part of ya'lls marriage by having regular sex with you, thus keeping her promise and avoiding the dreaded M/C, as sexual harassment. I thought ya'll agreed on something along those lines. Hence,
> 
> _"She promised to make a good faith effort. But if there hasn't been significant progress by our anniversary (June), then we would seek professional help."_ (post 546)


It comes down to intent. If we are having sex SOLELY to avoid the counseling, then that is no better than what I had before. Then she was having sex SOLELY because she got tired of me bothering her. 

I just don't want that anymore. Making love to a woman that would clearly like to be anywhere, doing anything, other than what she was doing just isn't very satisfying. 





ThePheonix said:


> There are a number of other statements in that post where intentions, touching, and other things referring to what its going to take fixing/improving sex and love making problems between you two , so I don't think my advice to ask her to prove her commitment would, or could, be construed as sexual harassment of your wife by you; at least not in a court of law. But you know your limits and that's what you need to go with.


By law, no, probably not. But I'm not going to try to force her to touch me either. She could be completely stiff and involved in the cuddling. She can reject any advance I make for the next three months. I will be just as left out in the cold as I am now. I want her to be free to make that choice. 

What I'm hoping for is if I remove the pressure to make love to me, but still provide her with the human touch, she will begin to respond to my touch. I am hoping she finds she likes it and wants more of it. And I'm hoping it leads us to a better place.





ThePheonix said:


> At the risk of be presumptuous, may I ask what you plan to do if the June deadline roll around and there is no improvement coupled with her refusal to accompany you to M/C. I wouldn't advise waiting until June and getting caught without a plan and finding yourself in the same boat.


If, in June, we are not in a better place, and she continues to refuse counseling, I will have to make a choice. Stay and accept this is my life, or go and hope for something better.

Among my friends I have three divorced fathers. All three have told me, on separate occasions when I was talking to them about their experiences, that getting divorced was the worst decision they ever made and if they had to do it again, they would have stuck it out, no matter what.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Sounds to me like you're planning to play the hand you've been dealt regardless of the stakes. 
I've heard it both ways on divorce. To some, getting out of that hell is the best thing they ever done. My take on your divorced buddies is that they haven't properly upgraded from the last model. In your case, for example, if you ended up divorced and later remarrying a chick that really loved you and was sexually compatible, I don't think you'd be singing the blues about it being the worst decision you made.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Sounds to me like you're planning to play the hand you've been dealt regardless of the stakes.
> I've heard it both ways on divorce. To some, getting out of that hell is the best thing they ever done. My take on your divorced buddies is that they haven't properly upgraded from the last model. In your case, for example, if you ended up divorced and later remarrying a chick that really loved you and was sexually compatible, I don't think you'd be singing the blues about it being the worst decision you made.


I know. There are a lot of people here that have said the same, that divorce was the best thing that ever happened to them. 

I just don't see myself bailing until the youngest is out of school. It's not so bad that I can't stand it. I just wish there were more to it than a very compatible roommate. 

I'm hoping that I can turn this around. Only time will tell.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Affection
Sex

You can initiate as you wish. If you are not getting reciprocity within a few minutes: You stop - don't do anything for a minute and then extricate yourself. 

If challenged, tell the truth: For this type thing to happen, you need to be an active participant. Balls in your court. 

--------
Why would you let anyone treat you like a charity case? 






CopperTop said:


> I know. There are a lot of people here that have said the same, that divorce was the best thing that ever happened to them.
> 
> I just don't see myself bailing until the youngest is out of school. It's not so bad that I can't stand it. I just wish there were more to it than a very compatible roommate.
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Affection
> Sex
> 
> You can initiate as you wish. If you are not getting reciprocity within a few minutes: You stop - don't do anything for a minute and then extricate yourself.
> ...


I'm sorry, MEM. I don't follow what you are telling me.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She needs to actively participate in affection or sex. 

Or you need to stop the activity. 

You can hug her, but if she doesn't hug you back - let go and step back. 

If she isn't willing to touch you during sex - stop. Say why and go somewhere else. 

She accomplished her goal with that little late night drive. She's disoriented you. She's good at conflict - you aren't. 






CopperTop said:


> I'm sorry, MEM. I don't follow what you are telling me.
> 
> 
> Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> She needs to actively participate in affection or sex.
> 
> Or you need to stop the activity.
> 
> ...


Not sure he's all that disoriented. Clearly in distress, but that was needed in their situation.

He did get the concession and hold firm to some changes. Well, TBH, he held firm to her "trying" for some changes. 

What I didn't hear was any explanation for why she doesn't have any concern for your sexual satisfaction. She's worried about you cheating, but not worried enough to make sure she's meeting what you want?? Curious that mindset it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tasorundo said:


> I agree with you phoenix, but what does that leave us with. I know my wife would love to desire me, however she doesn't and it is clear in her actions. Is it her fault?


Not desiring sex is not her fault. Letting the amount of sex you have be hostage to that consistently low desire is.

What you should do :

First, if you are only happy with sex because she is lusting after you, you need to stop that. Of course, you should not accept begrudging or indifferent "pity" sex either.

Then, you should have an honest talk with your wife and tell her your needs are too important to leave them subject to a fickle or non-existent libido. You will not insist she be horny, but you will insist that your needs be met by her in a cheerful manner.

Her responsibility, then, is to meet your need in a way that fulfills you. She does not get to say "well that should be enough" or something similar. Or, if she gets to set those rules for you then you get to set those rules for her.

Perhaps, when faced with that, she will find a way to make it happen, and those changes will allow her libido to emerge. At least she will learn to be a full participant in your marriage.

Always keep in mind that, barring severe physical or emotional issues, she is entirely capable of meeting your needs. She is simply choosing to not do so currently.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Among my friends I have three divorced fathers. All three have told me, on separate occasions when I was talking to them about their experiences, that getting divorced was the worst decision they ever made and if they had to do it again, they would have stuck it out, no matter what.


Did they say why they regret divorcing? What were their marriages like prior to the divorce?

Personally, my ex made the decision to leave after I got laid off. But I had checked out due to the lack of an intimate life, and so did not care past the realization that I was going to deal with my job loss alone.

Fast forward to now, and I am happy to the point where I cannot remember the last time I was this happy for an extended period in my marriage. And that includes my having 50% custody of my daughter (whereas I was seeing her every day and we are really close) and I had to settle for a job paying what I was making 10 years ago and thus don't have much financial security.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper- the other piece of the puzzle here is you need to prepare yourself mentally to leave her if she doesn't adjust.

You don't need to threaten her with this, but I believe it is essential to KNOW you have crossed a bridge and will never go back to the situation you were in previously.

Right now, you are GIVING her the opportunity to join you in this new, better place.

But with her or without her you are staying there and not going back.

If you have not fully made this commitment to yourself, then this is something you must work on very hard.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

For your talks:
Understanding Your Husband's Sexual Needs | Focus on the Family

For your touching sessions:
http://counselling-matters.org.uk/sites/counselling-matters/files/SensateFocus.pdf


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Folks, I don't think our man Cooper has it in him to leave; at least not at this point. She seems to know that and accordingly knows she's holding all the cards. Excuse the way I put this Copper, but she uses your dependency to play you like a ten dollar yard sale guitar, you appear to know it and go along with it just to get along and stay out of your home version solitary confinement. There is no incentive for her to change.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It boils down to what you get from the relationship as it is. I know the term "get even" is frowned upon by the TAM Elders but an eye for an eye is not out of the question in a more, ehem, Biblical context.

In simple terms if you aren't getting your needs met simply detach and live like the roommates she envisions your relationship to be. That's where the power of the 180 comes to life. Meanwhile plan your exit and be done with it.

If she offers ABC sex play along but don't act like a love stricken teenager.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> It comes down to intent. If we are having sex SOLELY to avoid the counseling, then that is no better than what I had before. Then she was having sex SOLELY because she got tired of me bothering her.
> 
> I just don't want that anymore. Making love to a woman that would clearly like to be anywhere, doing anything, other than what she was doing just isn't very satisfying.


While I understand the sentiment; a need to be desired and wanted by your partner, I think you're putting unnecessary restrictions on HER intent.

I get nothing from giving my husband a back rub. It doesn't excite me, doesn't make me feel good, and sometimes it makes my shoulder hurt-but only while I'm rubbing his back. And yet, I happily do it because he wants it.








> By law, no, probably not. But I'm not going to try to force her to touch me either. She could be completely stiff and involved in the cuddling. She can reject any advance I make for the next three months. I will be just as left out in the cold as I am now. I want her to be free to make that choice.


The LD partner always avoids affectionate contact because contact might be construed as sex initiation. If you agree that tonight we maintain eye contact while we touch one another, the fear of sexual contact is off the table.

Your wife is a mother, she KNOWS how important touch is to human beings, all humans from babies to 90 year olds in a nursing home. It is the very height of selfishness to refuse touch with your partner in order to avoid sex initiation.




> What I'm hoping for is if I remove the pressure to make love to me, but still provide her with the human touch, she will begin to respond to my touch. I am hoping she finds she likes it and wants more of it. And I'm hoping it leads us to a better place.



Only if you stretch her comfort zone while you go through the moratorium on actually having sex. Only if during this time she reconnects with the loving feeling of touching and being touched. Only if she examines herself and reflects on why she has turned that part of herself off and how she might turn it back in again.

But if she simply goes through the touching and intimacy exercises, you will get more of the same. Think of it as tackling this problem from all angles by insisting she open up about how she feels being touched, how she feels touching, how she feels looking into your eyes, how she feels being looked at.







> If, in June, we are not in a better place, and she continues to refuse counseling, I will have to make a choice. Stay and accept this is my life, or go and hope for something better.


I suggest you make this decision now. People in our shoes, facing a relationship that hurts instead of supports and loves...kind of makes us extremely vulnerable to the slightest improvement, which many times turns out to not be an improvement at all. Just a blip to show they tried and we hang onto that blip as proof that it CAN improve...



> Among my friends I have three divorced fathers. All three have told me, on separate occasions when I was talking to them about their experiences, that getting divorced was the worst decision they ever made and if they had to do it again, they would have stuck it out, no matter what.
> 
> 
> Copper


Did they say why?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I am keen to hear more about this. I'm curious why this will be a "battle." The reason I wonder is because when we are walking the dog, for example, I have the leash in one hand, her hand in the other. We hold hand most of the time when we are walking together.
> 
> 
> Copper


Sorry, I missed this.

You come to an agreement that a few times a week, for 10 minutes or so you each sit on the bed facing each other. You each stroke each other's hands and arms as you maintains eye contact. Not talking at first. When it is finished, you each answer... How do feel when you look at me. How do I feel when I look at you. You must do your best to describe the feelings.

It is an intimacy exercise. It won't promote sex. It is designed to promote emotional intimacy and emotional trust.

She will fight it because she has been hiding from you for ...since she began to refuse sex. She won't want to maintain eye contact and she won't want to answer those questions fully. 

I told you early in this thread that she refuses sex because she hates herself. She is morbidly obese and it disgusts her. But, she has done this to herself and she can only blame her self loathing on herself...something she is not willing to do because she admits that she will also have to own that she is responsible for fixing it too.

From your wife's perspective: "how do I feel when you look at me and when you touch me?" I feel ashamed. I feel vulnerable. I feel disgusted. I feel hatred. <--- admitting to those feelings will be like walking down the street naked. She will fight this, all of it.

It's easy to continue on our screwed up path in life so long as we never examine too closely what the hell we're doing. The moment we begin to examine things is the moment we become the owner of fixing those things. If we own the responsibility we also own the responsibility TO DO IT!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> She needs to actively participate in affection or sex.
> 
> Or you need to stop the activity.
> 
> ...


Got it. I was confused over the context because of the included quote. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Not sure he's all that disoriented. Clearly in distress, but that was needed in their situation.
> 
> He did get the concession and hold firm to some changes. Well, TBH, he held firm to her "trying" for some changes.
> 
> What I didn't hear was any explanation for why she doesn't have any concern for your sexual satisfaction. She's worried about you cheating, but not worried enough to make sure she's meeting what you want?? Curious that mindset it.


She made an interesting comment last night. It's the first time she has said this and I'm not sure what to make of it. Maybe it will shed some light on your question.

We were talking about how frustrating it was for me that she was getting hers but I wasn't getting mine. She said, "I know you have this fantasy about being a porn star and it going on and on, but I just can't do that."

Where the HELL did that come from? I denied it of course, but I have no idea how to address that.


Copper


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> .
> 
> We were talking about how frustrating it was for me that she was getting hers but I wasn't getting mine. She said, "I know you have this fantasy about being a porn star and it going on and on, but I just can't do that."
> 
> ...


This is straight out of the standard LD playbook. She is basically saying you're a pervert for wanting a satisfying sex life. Don't let her shame you like that. Every man who has been in your situation has heard some variation of this.

Edit: as for how to address it, I would let her see your frustration with this. You should say, "I simply want a satisfying sex life with you, my WIFE. I could go out and find a prostitute right now if I wanted the porn star experience. I resent the suggestion that my expectation here is somehow deviant or demeaning."


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

DTO said:


> Not desiring sex is not her fault. Letting the amount of sex you have be hostage to that consistently low desire is.
> 
> What you should do :
> 
> First, if you are only happy with sex because she is lusting after you, you need to stop that. Of course, you should not accept begrudging or indifferent "pity" sex either.


Having her lusting after me would be fantastic. I doubt it will ever happen again though. For the longest time it has been begrudging sex or nothing. That's what I want to change, if I can. 





DTO said:


> Then, you should have an honest talk with your wife and tell her your needs are too important to leave them subject to a fickle or non-existent libido. You will not insist she be horny, but you will insist that your needs be met by her in a cheerful manner.


I understand. But I also understand it is hard to be cheerful doing something you despise. I would have a hard time doing it and I suspect she will too. See the begrudging sex above.





DTO said:


> Her responsibility, then, is to meet your need in a way that fulfills you. She does not get to say "well that should be enough" or something similar. Or, if she gets to set those rules for you then you get to set those rules for her.
> 
> Perhaps, when faced with that, she will find a way to make it happen, and those changes will allow her libido to emerge. At least she will learn to be a full participant in your marriage.
> 
> Always keep in mind that, barring severe physical or emotional issues, she is entirely capable of meeting your needs. She is simply choosing to not do so currently.


I understand what you are saying. But there HAS to be some underlying issue at play here. I really don't think she is withholding just to be mean. I also don't think I am capable of getting to the bottom of it and/or solving it. 

Talking with her the last few nights is reminding me of why I gave up. It is emotionally draining, frustrating in the extreme, and so far outside my realm of understanding that I despair of ever solving our problem.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Copper- the other piece of the puzzle here is you need to prepare yourself mentally to leave her if she doesn't adjust.
> 
> You don't need to threaten her with this, but I believe it is essential to KNOW you have crossed a bridge and will never go back to the situation you were in previously.
> 
> ...


I understand. But this is so very hard. I love her, and I remember how it was. I'm still relatively happy. If I could just do something about my desires, then I could live very happily as I do now. 

I am hesitant to say this because I know everyone is going to land on me with both feet, but often times I feel like I'M the one making myself unhappy because I can't/won't accept her for who she is.

She is a fantastic partner, and if she were paired with someone more compatible sexually, then that someone will have a very happy life. Why can't that be me?


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She made an interesting comment last night. It's the first time she has said this and I'm not sure what to make of it. Maybe it will shed some light on your question.
> 
> We were talking about how frustrating it was for me that she was getting hers but I wasn't getting mine. She said, "I know you have this fantasy about being a porn star and it going on and on, but I just can't do that."
> 
> ...


She is obviously a very intellegent woman who knows how to play you like a fiddle. Too bad she doesn't play you in the bedroom the way she does outside the bedroom.

Her responses are so selfish. She acuses you of wanting porn start sex just because you would like to have an orgasm. You gave her many, but you're not allowed even one.

She seriously need some IC before you even get to marriage counseling. I feel like she is the kind of woman who would make changes if she knew she was going to lose you. The fact that you keep giving her more time to adjust and fix this on her own makes no sense at all. She can't fix it. I also think there is something more going on with her weight situation. If she were eating healthy food, and getting a bit of exercise, the weight would be falling off.

I think yo9u need to push her to the bariatric surgeon. If someone told me I had 3-5 years to live if I didn't lose the weight, I would have done everything in my power, including bariatric surgery, to make that happen. 

In the end, I don't think you actually know what you are giving up since you haved never had an excited, fulfilling and adventurous sex life. This may sound strange, but it makes me so sad to think that you will never in your life ever have a BJ. I can tell you that you are really missing out. I hope you at least had a few before you married C2!


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Having her lusting after me would be fantastic. I doubt it will ever happen again though. For the longest time it has been begrudging sex or nothing. That's what I want to change, if I can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If this is true, than you need to tell her that you can't wait until June to get to a counselor. Tell her she needs to go to IC until June when you get to MC, or MC needs to start now.

You have every right to change your mind about the June date based on the progress of your conversations.

She knows you will give up just like you did last time, and she can go back to the way things were the past year when you didn't ask for sex. How did that work for you?

You are here because you want your situation to be different. Make it happen!


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She is a fantastic partner, and if she were paired with someone more compatible sexually, then that someone will have a very happy life. Why can't that be me?
> 
> 
> Copper


Please Copper, you need to get to IC right now. This statement shows that you are willing to settle for crumbs when you deserve so much more.

You manparts have a limited life span. Do you reallly want to waste what time you have left with someone who won't even touch your pe*is? I find that so juvenile, and wonder why you have put up with it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper- everything you are saying I have said to myself many times. I went on SSRIs for a year simply in an effort to reduce my libido. It sickens me that something like sex would be the reason to break up my family.

There is a process you need to go through with yourself. You need to admit to yourself what your bottom line is. Are you willing to go through the rest of your life with this misery? Only you can answer this.

For me, this is something I struggle with every day. I have gotten to the point after 5 yrs and a ton of work on myself that I believe more days than not that I am not the one with the problem. 

I am willing to compromise, I am willing to do a lot, but I am not willing to live the rest of my life like this. And that does not mean that it is my FAULT.

You have to draw this line for yourself. You must have a walk away point where there is no deal. If you are in business you know this is essential to any negotiation. For me, I find it is helpful to cut through all of the emotional manipulation to look at things this way.

It is a horrible situation, but you did not choose this and you don't have to accept it. Admitting this to yourself does not make you a bad person or a failure.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I get nothing from giving my husband a back rub. It doesn't excite me, doesn't make me feel good, and sometimes it makes my shoulder hurt-but only while I'm rubbing his back. *And yet, I happily do it because he wants it.*


I think this is the key difference. You WANT to do it for him. She does not want to do it for me.





Anon Pink said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> Did they say why?


Two of the three were nearly ruined financially. One's wife was a stay at home mom and refused to return to work. So this man continued to pour more and more money into that family so they didn't have to live in substandard, drug infested housing. 

The other man wouldn't talk about it as much, but he HATED his ex and he basically considered women a scourge. He was polite and professional, but he would never go to lunch, for example, if a woman was also going. And he admitted as much. He too was nearly ruined financially. He told me that at the end of most months he couldn't afford milk for his cereal until the next payday.

Both these men also complained they missed their kids. 

The third is a little bit different. The cliff notes version is he put his wife through school. When she earned her PhD and went to work for a drug company making BIG bucks, and their daughter was out of diapers, she walked in and told him she didn't need him any more.

She is paying him, so financially he is doing okay, but he fights CONSTANTLY with her over their daughter and the wife uses the daughter to make him jump. He gets the daughter three days a week, the wife four, but she will often do things like call him late in the afternoon and tell him she can't pick daughter up at school and he will have to do it. So he has to scramble, change is plans, and drive the 160 miles round trip to pick her up.

Even though he sees his daughter three nights a week, that is what he misses most, spending time with her for more than a day or two at a time.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> She seriously need some IC before you even get to marriage counseling. I feel like she is the kind of woman who would make changes if she knew she was going to lose you. The fact that you keep giving her more time to adjust and fix this on her own makes no sense at all. She can't fix it. I also think there is something more going on with her weight situation. If she were eating healthy food, and getting a bit of exercise, the weight would be falling off.


The weight is coming off. I won't use the term falling, because I don't think she pushes as hard on the exercise as she could/should, but I keep that to myself because to say that bluntly will only discourage her. Instead I keep encouraging her to walk a little farther, a little faster with me... do the cardio just a little longer or to try a new, slightly harder program.





Workathome said:


> I think yo9u need to push her to the bariatric surgeon. If someone told me I had 3-5 years to live if I didn't lose the weight, I would have done everything in my power, including bariatric surgery, to make that happen.
> 
> In the end, I don't think you actually know what you are giving up since you haved never had an excited, fulfilling and adventurous sex life. This may sound strange, but it makes me so sad to think that you will never in your life ever have a BJ. I can tell you that you are really missing out. I hope you at least had a few before you married C2!


I hesitate to admit this... but no. That is something I have never experienced. 

I was a 21 year old virgin when one of my professors took me under her wing. She was at least twenty years older than me and she taught me the ways of pleasing a woman. But it was all about her, and though I learned a great many things and it was fantastic, that was one thing she never offered.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Coop my man, from my observation, these three guys sound like damn fools. They are victims of their own design. 
At my age, and years in the legal, business, and teaching profession, and life in general, I've known hundreds of divorced men and women. The ones that end up in the situation you're talking about are the one who have a couple of things in common; no fight in them and are willing to roll over and play dead. Some seem to enjoy playing the victim.
You use these stooges as illustrations. Let me give you my personal illustration. I've got a daughter whose ex husband owes her thousands of dollars in back child support. Guess why. She's too lackadaisical and enjoys playing the victim to much to go after him. She won't let me go after him because, "it will just make it worse because he'll have to pay a lot of legal costs". What a bunch of horse shid. Sound like anybody you know?

Regarding your professor that taught you to please women, she sure as hell didn't include a chapter on how to handle yourself.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Coop my man, from my observation, these three guys sound like damn fools. They are victims of their own design.
> At my age, and years in the legal, business, and teaching profession, and life in general, I've known hundreds of divorced men and women. The ones that end up in the situation you're talking about are the one who have a couple of things in common; no fight in them and are willing to roll over and play dead. Some seem to enjoy playing the victim.
> You use these stooges as illustrations. Let me give you my personal illustration. I've got a daughter whose ex husband owes her thousands of dollars in back child support. Guess why. She's too lackadaisical and enjoys playing the victim to much to go after him. She won't let me go after him because, "it will just make it worse because he'll have to pay a lot of legal costs". What a bunch of horse shid. Sound like anybody you know?
> 
> Regarding your professor that taught you to please women, she sure as hell didn't include a chapter on how to handle yourself.


Why would you say this? I would do the exact same. I would pay whatever it took to keep my children safe and not living in squalor, regardless of what the courts ordered.

The third guy, his wife walked out on him. What exactly is he supposed to do?


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I took a long walk today, just me, the dog, and my thoughts. 

I have my plan. I will continue on the path before me, trying to bring C2 closer to me. I will continue to push for counseling in the hopes of improving my situation. 

But failing all that, I have decided to stay. I want to have a wife that wants to be with me, but I don't want it enough to sacrifice giving my kids the best start I can.

I will stick this out, no matter how bad it gets, until my youngest is out of the house and on his own. That is only 3-7 more years. I can do that. 

Then, once he is well on the road to his own life, I can take care of my own house. Maybe by then the fire will have gone out and I will be happy. I will be nearly sixty by then, and as others have pointed out, functioning body parts have an expiration date. If not, then I can leave if I still want to.

The way I look at it is if I am willing to lay my life down for my children, and I am, I should be willing to sacrifice a little happiness for them. They are more important to me than I am to myself.

Thank you all for your support and generous help. I will continue to read the advice you give. Perhaps something else, another idea, will surface that will help me either cope or continue to nudge C2 in the direction I want her to go.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> For your talks:
> Understanding Your Husband's Sexual Needs | Focus on the Family
> 
> For your touching sessions:
> http://counselling-matters.org.uk/sites/counselling-matters/files/SensateFocus.pdf


Interesting reading. Thank you very much.

I will suggest these to C2.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> This is straight out of the standard LD playbook. She is basically saying you're a pervert for wanting a satisfying sex life. Don't let her shame you like that. Every man who has been in your situation has heard some variation of this.



The thing is that once it gets to this level of argumentation it's all history. You can't debate an LD person to intimacy no matter how skilled you are.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> The thing is that once it gets to this level of argumentation it's all history. You can't debate an LD person to intimacy no matter how skilled you are.


Then there is no hope?


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I took a long walk today, just me, the dog, and my thoughts.
> 
> I have my plan. I will continue on the path before me, trying to bring C2 closer to me. I will continue to push for counseling in the hopes of improving my situation.
> 
> ...


I am not surprised you decided this! As a parent, I can understand why you are thinking this way. As a woman who wasted 30 years of a marriage before learning the importance of a happy fulfilling sexual relationship to a marriage - I
am telling you that I think you are sabotaging your efforts by coming to this conclusion right now! Basically - you are predicting the end result before you even give your plan a chance. And this decision will severely color your efforts in carrying out the plan!! 

I hope you really WILL still push hard for changes to happen, and not take the lazy way out. You are in a position to take this somewhere right now - don't give up yet and project the results! Stick with your previous plan. You did it her way for a year - INSIST upon doing it your way for this year!! You have not asked for anything unreasonable in the plan you outlined before. You are not forcing her to be sexual in any way. You are simply asking for discussions and for some intimate non-sexual touching, and counseling. If she fights you on THIS plan - it shows that she really has no love and respect for you as a man or as her husband - noen at all. I hope you can see that clearly!

AGAIN - I would STRONGLY encourage you to not make up your mind so quickly on the end result if this plan fails! Come on Coppertop - just MAN UP for ONE FULL YEAR!! See where it takes you! Then you can make a determination of where to go after the year and after you have the data necessary from the years efforts!! Can't you see how deciding this now - WILL affect how hard you push your plan?? BE POSITIVE - and don't entertain the ideal at all that this plan will fail!!!

Geez - at the very least - DO NOT give her any clues that you have made a final determination. If she knows that you have already decided right now to stick it out no matter what - then to put it bluntly - you have provided her the knife to finish off the castration process she started years ago!

But its your life - and your loss (and her loss) if you are not willing to fight to work on this area of your marriage! I am at a loss why men are so wimpy in this area!! :scratchhead:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> I am not surprised you decided this! As a parent, I can understand why you would make this decision, as a woman who has learned the importance of a happy fulfilling sexual relationship in a marriage - I hope you really WILL still push hard for changes to happen, and not take the lazy way out.
> 
> You are in a position to take this somewhere right now - don't give up yet and project the results! Stick with your previous plan. You did it her way for a year - INSIST upon doing it your way for this year!! You have not asked for anything unreasonable in the plan you outlined before. You are not forcing her to be sexual in any way. You are simply asking for discussions and for some intimate non-sexual touching, and counseling. If she fights you on THIS plan - it shows that she really has no love and respect for you as a man or as her husband - noen at all. I hope you can see that clearly!


That is the idea. I will continue to work the plan as outlined previously. 





mary35 said:


> I would STRONGLY encourage you to not make up your mind so quickly on the end result if this plan fails! Come on Coppertop - just MAN UP for ONE FULL YEAR!! See where it takes you! Then you can make a determination!! Deciding this now - WILL affect how hard you push your plan!! BE POSITIVE - and don't entertain the ideal at all that this plan will fail!!!


Can you elaborate a bit, please. In June, if she still refuses to acknowledge there is a problem and refuses to attend counseling, I'm not sure what my next move would be. I have put all my eggs in that one basket. What are you suggesting that I do for the remainder of the year?





mary35 said:


> At the very least - DO NOT give her any clues that you have made a final determination. If she knows that you have already decided right now to stick it out no matter what - then to put it bluntly - you have provided her the knife to finish off the castration process she started years ago!


No. This is just me deciding on what the end game is as was suggested. I don't plan on telling her that I'm out until I show her the papers. I'm not going to threaten, I'm just going to do.





mary35 said:


> But its your life - and your loss (and her loss) if you are not willing to fight to work on this area of your marriage! I am at a loss why men are so wimpy in this area!! :scratchhead:


This is may related to the bit above about working on the marriage for a year, but in what area am I being wimpy?


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Having her lusting after me would be fantastic. I doubt it will ever happen again though. For the longest time it has been begrudging sex or nothing. That's what I want to change, if I can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is definitely an underlying issue at play here!!! And NO - you are not capable of getting to the bottom of it and/or solving it. It's her issue - to be figured out and solved by her. WITH PROFESSIONAL HELP!! Thus the need for the counseling!! What ever you do - and if you get nothing at all from what I have written or what I write in the future - please hear this and take it to heart - *IF you do not enforce this one part of your plan - and get both of you into counseling with a GOOD sex therapist - you will have thrown away your only chance of fixing this problem in your marriage. Of this fact - I have NO doubts!!!* Quite frankly, I think you are just wasting time with the holding off till June and working on it yourself ideal!! You have been working on it yourself for years!!!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Why would you say this? I would do the exact same.
> Copper


No doubt my man. For the sake of disclosure, and despite my age, I enjoy playing Call of Duty on my PC. I know its not real, only a game, and I'm not that good at it. But I enjoy playing. Perhaps playing this game is why I sound so cynical about these guys beating themselves about the head and shoulders and living hand to mouth. What's the third guy suppose to do? Enjoy the alimony he's getting and date lots of hot chicks. It wouldn't take but a few for him to realize his ex wasn't anything special in or out of the sack and even a bigger pain in the azz than he remembered.

Additionally I want to share my notes on the chapter the professor failed to touch on. Women lose respect for and are turned off by needy men and those they can push around. My notes on this chapter are old so you might want to confirm them with some women on this site or elsewhere. See if they apply this day and age.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Then there is no hope?



I wouldn't say so but...

Like any problem there are several steps in the process:

- what do we know
- what we know we don't know
- why is it happening 
- what does it take to fix
- is it fixable?

And so on. Cases like ours are fixable in some instances but only if the LD person decides to change, be it by a lightbulb going on in their head, divorce threat, bribing... And the LD's know that.

That's why detachment is such a good approach.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Of course you don't argue your way to intimacy. Neither logic nor debate are paths to connection and desire.

This doesn't mean no hope. I can see that the path is a difficult one because you can't wish a spouse to be other than they are. But people can and do change, sometimes dramatically. They will do so when they can see the prize is worth the cost. Or they are sick of continually shooting themselves in the foot.

Copper, realize that john has an especially bleak mindset. His wife is mentally ill, and he has totally checked out. He is only biding time until he leaves.

But because it was childbirth when your wife shut down, I think there is a reasonable chance she will see the advantages to rekindling a sexual relationship with you. I can't pretend to know what she's thinking/feeling, but I do know a lot of women who had great difficulties reconciling their view of themselves as mothers and as sexual women. That plus weight gain, which is well known to exacerbate body image and self-esteem issues. These things can change if she's willing to do the work on it.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> That is the idea. I will continue to work the plan as outlined previously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, my definition of wimpy is passive or not standing your ground when you have every reason to stand your ground. Let me ask you this, CopperTop - if your wife was a spend thrift - and was out charging up accounts - buying what she wants - putting you deeper in debt day in and day out, how would you react to that behavior? What if she refused to change - or told you it is just the way she is - so deal with it? If your wife was emotionally abusive to your children - day in and day out, how would you react to that behavior? What if no matter what you said or did - she refused to change? Would you allow that behavior to continue? Would you handle either of these situations the same as you have handled your sexual relationship - letting her dictate how it will be - with no input from you? Would you make excuses for her - wonder what causing it - but saying you have no control over it and can't stop it so you just have to live with the way it is - the way she is??

How are you being wimpy? You do not stand up for yourself in this area of your marriage. You have constantly backed down and let her dictate the terms. You have been passive where your needs are concerned. 1. You allowed this to go on for years - she has dictated the terms of your sexual relationship for years - and you allowed her to do that!!! 2. You just caved on the counseling issue because she insisted that counseling scares her and she is very uncomfortable with it. You have allowed are another 3 months to convince you to drop this. With your record thus far, I suspect she will succeed. What about you - doesn't your sex life scare you and make you feel uncomfortable. It should if it doesn't. 3. And you have already decided to continue to put up with this behavior if she does not follow through with your plan - before you even allow your plan to play out - you have decided there will be no consequences at all for her not doing her part! You are going to let her continue to dictate the two of yours sexual relationship if SHE FAILS. Umm -if that is not wimpy - I don't know what is??? 

There has been no compromise in this area of your marriage - no give and take. You give, and give, and give. She takes or refuses. One or the other - and she decides which it will? There are times in a marriage to be passive, and to not stand your ground. But when one person is not happy or satisfied with something - and justifiably so - then they should stand their ground and fight for improvement. (Notice I said improvement - not fight for EVERYTHING you want - and keep fight until you get everything). Your being passive and not standing your ground concerning your sexual relationship has not been healthy for the marriage. It has not been healthy for you. It has not been healthy for her. So really - both of you lose! How sad is that??


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> That's why detachment is such a good approach.


Detachment is good for self-protection and self-preservation.

It is not good for inspiring a spouse to change or to work on things, especially if it is deep-seated fears of abandonment or feelings of unworthiness that are driving them. Then all you are doing is reinforcing those very things you want them to get over.

Detachment will only work if the spouse is overall healthy in self-esteem, and is just taking you for granted, or is playing the stupid mind games that some of the posters here are alluding to.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I still think that super Cold War detachment (not the coy or aloof textbook 180 with requisite Mona Lisa smile) and worse is better to the extent that one gets to "pay back" the other side a bit. I realize this is not, ehem, benevolent, and it won't do much if any to fix the marriage but a Pyrrhic victory is a victory nonetheless.

Think scorched earth separation vs amicable separation... If nothing else on the way home from the courthouse both parties will now why what just happened really happened. 

Bottom line, there have to be consequences . At 60 we are more likely to be the Metamucil and prune juice types than the Mezcal Passion and Campari types so there's got to be a little spreading the love - or lack thereof - in the process.

Is it right to do such unthinkable stunts on someone already emotionally vulnerable? Probably not, but if the Vatican ever calls I won't bring it up.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

mary35 said:


> First of all, my definition of wimpy is passive or not standing your ground when you have every reason to stand your ground.


Out of curiosity and school me on this Mary, is that the kind of guy that you or women you know would be interested in?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> This is a bunch of crock! The fact is she does things she doesn't like and despises daily - and probably does them cheerfully! After all - you do have children - don't you? Tell me - does she do things for them she does not like to do? Does she meet their needs - or just brush them off - in the same way she does you??? I mean - really - even if she only "performed" twice a week for you - we are only talking about what - 1 to 2 hours a week, total max??? Stop buying into her excuses or providing her with them! The fact is - for whatever reason she has chosen to deny your marriage something that is vital and important to it! Frankly unless she is physically ill or incapacitated in some way -or your are a total jerk, are abusive, or a terrible husband to her - there really is NO GOOD excuse for her treatment towards you in this area.
> 
> My question to you is why do you think otherwise??


I don't. That is why I am trying to find a way out. But I honestly can't think of anything else that she seems to enjoy LESS than being intimate. There may be something, but I don't know what it is.




mary35 said:


> There is definitely an underlying issue at play here!!! And NO - you are not capable of getting to the bottom of it and/or solving it. It's her issue - to be figured out and solved by her. WITH PROFESSIONAL HELP!! Thus the need for the counseling!! What ever you do - and if you get nothing at all from what I have written or what I write in the future - please hear this and take it to heart - *IF you do not enforce this one part of your plan - and get both of you into counseling with a GOOD sex therapist - you will have thrown away your only chance of fixing this problem in your marriage. Of this fact - I have NO doubts!!!* Quite frankly, I think you are just wasting time with the holding off till June and working on it yourself ideal!! You have been working on it yourself for years!!!


The reason I am waiting for June is because I said I would. The reason I said I would is because she was so dead set against against going at first. She would prefer to not go at all, but I don't want to continue like this, so I wasn't willing to give that up. 

So we agreed to try to resolve it ourselves for three months. She got a bit of what she wanted in that she didn't have to go to the counselor right away, and I got a bit of what I wanted in that she did agree to go eventually.

I hope if she learns to open up with me a little, that will help us when we do get to the counselor. 

And if she decides to not go? I have no idea what to do from that point. Short of frog-marching her there, there isn't a lot I can do. She holds the upper hand because I want something from her (to attend counseling) and she really doesn't want anything from me.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> And if she decides to not go? I have no idea what to do from that point. Short of frog-marching her there, there isn't a lot I can do. She holds the upper hand because I want something from her (to attend counseling) and she really doesn't want anything from me.
> Copper



Reading both the lines and tween the lines, you don't give yourself any options. One word comes to mind Dawg. Checkmate.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> First of all, my definition of wimpy is passive or not standing your ground when you have every reason to stand your ground. Let me ask you this, CopperTop - if your wife was a spend thrift - and was out charging up accounts - buying what she wants - putting you deeper in debt day in and day out, how would you react to that behavior? What if she refused to change - or told you it is just the way she is - so deal with it? If your wife was emotionally abusive to your children - day in and day out, how would you react to that behavior? What if no matter what you said or did - she refused to change? Would you allow that behavior to continue? Would you handle either of these situations the same as you have handled your sexual relationship - letting her dictate how it will be - with no input from you? Would you make excuses for her - wonder what causing it - but saying you have no control over it and can't stop it so you just have to live with the way it is - the way she is??


Those are MUCH easier problems to solve. Her spending... we would have separate accounts. She could spend her money, but I would still have mine. She wanted a new car, she could pay for it out of her account, etc. 

The children? I would simply leave to remove them from the abusive environment and I would know the children would be better for it. 





mary35 said:


> How are you being wimpy? You do not stand up for yourself in this area of your marriage. You have constantly backed down and let her dictate the terms. You have been passive where your needs are concerned. 1. You allowed this to go on for years - she has dictated the terms of your sexual relationship for years - and you allowed her to do that!!! 2. You just caved on the counseling issue because she insisted that counseling scares her and she is very uncomfortable with it. You have allowed are another 3 months to convince you to drop this. With your record thus far, I suspect she will succeed. What about you - doesn't your sex life scare you and make you feel uncomfortable. It should if it doesn't. 3. And you have already decided to continue to put up with this behavior if she does not follow through with your plan - before you even allow your plan to play out - you have decided there will be no consequences at all for her not doing her part! You are going to let her continue to dictate the two of yours sexual relationship if SHE FAILS. Umm -if that is not wimpy - I don't know what is???


I am continuing to work the plan. She doesn't know that I will stay for another few years and I don't intend to tell her. I have allowed her to dictate the terms of our sexual relations, that much I will give you. But as you know, in negotiations, if you want something and the other party does not, you are not negotiating from a position of strength. 

The only card I have is to threaten to leave. But to leave causes me to incur some significant pain. I won't see my children as often as I do now and I will suffer significant finical losses. So I have to ask myself... does she want me to stay more than she fears me to leaving? 

I don't know the answer to that. I suspect she might allow me to leave. But what if she does have me stay. Resentful sex is no better than, and in some ways worse than, no sex. 

That is why I am so hesitant to play my sole point of leverage. Unless you can point out where my logic is flawed, it looks like a loose, loose to me.





mary35 said:


> There has been no compromise in this area of your marriage - no give and take. You give, and give, and give. She takes or refuses. One or the other - and she decides which it will? There are times in a marriage to be passive, and to not stand your ground. But when one person is not happy or satisfied with something - and justifiably so - then they should stand their ground and fight for improvement. (Notice I said improvement - not fight for EVERYTHING you want - and keep fight until you get everything). Your being passive and not standing your ground concerning your sexual relationship has not been healthy for the marriage. It has not been healthy for you. It has not been healthy for her. So really - both of you lose! How sad is that??


From my point of view, very sad. But this past year, when I had stopped my sexual advances, she has been as happy as I have seen her in years. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Reading both the lines and tween the lines, you don't give yourself any options. One word comes to mind Dawg. Checkmate.


Don't I know it. 

That is why, after a while, I give up trying. I couldn't reach her and she had no real interest in changing.

I wanted something from her, and she wanted nothing from me except to continue as is.


Copper


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> And if she decides to not go? I have no idea what to do from that point. Short of frog-marching her there, there isn't a lot I can do. She holds the upper hand because I want something from her (to attend counseling) and she really doesn't want anything from me.
> 
> Copper


Then you go to Individual Counseling (IC) to figure our your issues and you have issues. Determine the root causes of why you are so afraid to stand up for yourself. Work on your confrontation management skills. You don't have to remain this way. Fix you and then you will have greater clarity about your marriage.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> No doubt my man. For the sake of disclosure, and despite my age, I enjoy playing Call of Duty on my PC. I know its not real, only a game, and I'm not that good at it. But I enjoy playing. Perhaps playing this game is why I sound so cynical about these guys beating themselves about the head and shoulders and living hand to mouth. What's the third guy suppose to do? Enjoy the alimony he's getting and date lots of hot chicks. It wouldn't take but a few for him to realize his ex wasn't anything special in or out of the sack and even a bigger pain in the azz than he remembered.
> 
> Additionally I want to share my notes on the chapter the professor failed to touch on. Women lose respect for and are turned off by needy men and those they can push around. My notes on this chapter are old so you might want to confirm them with some women on this site or elsewhere. See if they apply this day and age.


Ah-ha! They weren't beating themselves up, but they were bitter as hell about how they had been treated. 

The guy dumping all the money to keep his kids safe wasn't sad, he was <urinated> off. But what could he do? With hold the money and let his kids suffer? No, he was mad because being unable to rub to nickles together was worse than what he had to deal with in his marriage. 

The second guy, I'm not so sure about. But she did something to him and he hated her for it. Part of it was money, but there was more to it than that. He sure as hell didn't miss her.

The last guy, he was torn up about it, but mostly he was upset that even though his wife was gone, she was STILL screwing up his life.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Coffee Amore said:


> Then you go to Individual Counseling (IC) to figure our your issues and you have issues. Determine the root causes of why you are so afraid to stand up for yourself. Work on your confrontation management skills. You don't have to remain this way. Fix you and then you will have greater clarity about your marriage.


I am not being combative, but why is it you think I am not standing up for myself? Is it only because I won't walk away? I have my children to think about.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Coffee Amore said:


> Then you go to Individual Counseling (IC) to figure our your issues and you have issues. Determine the root causes of why you are so afraid to stand up for yourself. Work on your confrontation management skills. You don't have to remain this way. Fix you and then you will have greater clarity about your marriage.



IC is a great suggestion and I hope C follows up. The root causes of things, the background, etc are all crucial.

You generally can't confront an LD on LD itself tho. It's as taboo as asking your cubemate how much raise they got last year. You can beat around the bush some, argue some, but as I said earlier, you could have the debating skills of Plato and if the LD is not putting out, you ain't getting lucky. Its the gatekeeper concept.

Standing up for oneself is great but as a self development goal, not as a way to address current issues. 

You can't negotiate or confront someone if they have nothing to lose by not going along.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I took a long walk today, just me, the dog, and my thoughts.
> 
> I have my plan. I will continue on the path before me, trying to bring C2 closer to me. I will continue to push for counseling in the hopes of improving my situation.
> 
> ...


It's bizzare how much this bothers me. After all, you're just some faceless person on the internet. But, the again, I'd be bummed if I 'd just gottemn done watching a movie where the bad guy won and the good guy lost. And that's fictional people. You're real.

Your wife IS the bad guy. What bothers me far more than the lack of sex is the lack of concern for your happiness. I'm could live with a sexless marriage, but I couldn't live with a wife who to whom my happiness was of no concern. Not only that, but she turns your reasonable needs against you; trying to make you think that you're a pervert, when she must know that it's her behavior that is unreasonable.

Your youngest child is 15 and gets along great with you. How do you think he'd feel if he ever knew what happiness you were giving up for his sake? Those fathers that regretted their divorces, they had young kids that they were missing time with. Your 15 year-old will undoubtedly choose to live with you. And, assuming he's a normal 15 year-old, just how much time are you spending with him anyway? If it's so much that it can't be maintained as a part-time father, then you're probably spending too much time with him.

Your wife is probably miserable now and, if motivated to change, may well be a good deal happier if only you'd give her the motivation to change.

There's only one way to get her to change, let her know that you're not prepared to go on this way and that, at some point in the future, you will no longer be there. Sadly, if you can't do that, there's very little hope for change. I'm in IT as well and, being very rational, it took me a long time to realize that you can't make others change their behavior by constructing the perfect argument. For regular people the role of their intellect is to come up with rationalizations for behaviors that their emotions chose.

As far as your wife wanting sex with you instead of doing it out or a desire to make you happy, women often have responsive desire and the more sex they have, the more they want it. 

It just saddens me that you're considering giving up on this. But, hey, it's your life.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Ah-ha! They weren't beating themselves up, but they were bitter as hell about how they had been treated.
> Copper


What it sounds like to me is you're searching for an excuse why you cannot consider divorce... "it financial, the kids suffer, the ex may continue make me miserable, and on and on. For every one that considers a divorce the a mistake, there's several that know its the best thing that ever happened. Why do you seem to always identify yourself with the losers?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> and she really doesn't want anything from me.


Wrong. She wants to continue to stay married to you.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> I am not being combative, but why is it you think I am not standing up for myself? Is it only because I won't walk away? I have my children to think about.
> 
> 
> Copper


Because you don't stand up for yourself. You will put another person's feelings of hurt, disappointment, inconvenience ahead of any feeling you have. And I say that as someone who used to be non-confrontational. That's pretty much how I was trained in my family to deal with potentially uncomfortable situations. You are unwilling to make your wife uncomfortable even though she makes you very uncomfortable in a certain part of your marriage and has for nearly two decades. That comes from some deep rooted impulse that you need to address. You like the old me don't seem to have a lot of tools in your confrontational toolbox. You can assert yourself without being an ass. It's about learning to respect yourself and while I'm sure you will say you respect yourself, your actions say otherwise.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopprtTop - I have been round and round this same issue with other men in your same position. It's why I quit responding - because you all are so entrenched in your faulty thinking patterns - just as entrenched as the wives are in theirs- that you really can't see the trees in the forest anymore. And further more - when people point out the trees, your reaction is to close your eyes and not look at them. Instead - you keep pointing out just how big and vast the forest is. Yes - it is big and vast - but deal with one tree at a time and quit getting overwhelmed with how many there are to deal with!!

Some thoughts for you to consider

1. You can stop being a husband without a divorce and without leaving the house. How do you do that? This thread is full of advice from others on how to do this. You were doing it - till she scared you by running away and reeled you back in. Basically you just stop being a husband. You become a friend to your wife instead - a polite, distant, not too involved with her - casual friend. Not a close friend, not her best friend. You co-parent, and you treat her with respect - but then you live a parallel life. Other than your children - you live a separate life. You do not have other relationships with the opposite sex - because you are still legally married - but you withdraw your love, your concern, and your time from the marital relationship, and you do the best you can to find happiness and fulfillment in other areas of your life. 

2. Children - no matter how old - even when they are adults are hurt when their parents marriage breaks up. So no matter if you wait till they are out of the house to leave her - your children will still be hurt.

3. For every behavior in life there are consequences and rewards. A normal person who gets rewarded for their behavior - usually continues that behavior. A normal person who faces consequences severe enough - and gets no rewards at all for a behavior - usually changes their behavior. How are you rewarding your wife for her behavior? The rewards need to stop - and she needs to see harsher consequences instead! See #1

4. There is such a thing as individual counseling. You have given your wife a 3 month reprieve on counseling. Why don't you do individual counseling during that time? You are just as broken as your wife is. Get a start on fixing yourself. It often takes time - and weeding out to find a good counselor. So get started - and then you will have a good one in place for your wife. Also - A good therapists can help you see the trees again - and come up with a plan to deal with them. None of us on this forum is a professional (that I know of).

5. What do you do if still refuses counseling in June? I am pretty sure I answered this when I told you what to say to her. You basically have one choice - and that is to continue to work on yourself and find a way to be happy with your reality. But please understand - that if she refuses to go to counseling with you - that says it all about what her feelings are towards you and your marriage.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> It's bizzare how much this bothers me. After all, you're just some faceless person on the internet. But, the again, I'd be bummed if I 'd just gottemn done watching a movie where the bad guy won and the good guy lost. And that's fictional people. You're real.
> 
> Your wife IS the bad guy. What bothers me far more than the lack of sex is the lack of concern for your happiness. I'm could live with a sexless marriage, but I couldn't live with a wife who to whom my happiness was of no concern. Not only that, but she turns your reasonable needs against you; trying to make you think that you're a pervert, when she must know that it's her behavior that is unreasonable.
> 
> Your youngest child is 15 and gets along great with you. How do you think he'd feel if he ever knew what happiness you were giving up for his sake? Those fathers that regretted their divorces, they had young kids that they were missing time with. Your 15 year-old will undoubtedly choose to live with you. And, assuming he's a normal 15 year-old, just how much time are you spending with him anyway? If it's so much that it can't be maintained as a part-time father, then you're probably spending too much time with him.


I suspect he would. But what worries me more than anything is I think it is a given that kids do the best with both a mother and a father at home. I have no worries with my kids over drugs, pregnancy, school, gangs... none of that. I absolutely do not want to jeopardize that at this point when so many parents have so much trouble with their kids in this age group.





Buddy400 said:


> Your wife is probably miserable now and, if motivated to change, may well be a good deal happier if only you'd give her the motivation to change.
> 
> There's only one way to get her to change, let her know that you're not prepared to go on this way and that, at some point in the future, you will no longer be there. Sadly, if you can't do that, there's very little hope for change. I'm in IT as well and, being very rational, it took me a long time to realize that you can't make others change their behavior by constructing the perfect argument. For regular people the role of their intellect is to come up with rationalizations for behaviors that their emotions chose.
> 
> ...


I have to get her to have the sex, first, before she can want to have sex. That's circular logic and leads me nowhere. 

I'm still fighting the good fight, but I think my prospects are dim that I can fix this. I'm nothing if not a realist. My company offers free counseling as part of our benefits. Perhaps I will take them up on it. Maybe they can help.

So many people here have said the same thing over and over. I have to bail. The only way I will ever be happy is to leave. 

That is the one options I don't think I can take. Not now. So, I am trying to get right with the idea. My kids futures are FAR more important to me than my happiness is. Add in the financial risks and the cost benefit ratio become pretty clear for me.

It sucks, but it is the reality. How much is my desire to have a regular sexual encounter worth to me? I don't know, but not that much. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> What it sounds like to me is you're searching for an excuse why you cannot consider divorce... "it financial, the kids suffer, the ex may continue make me miserable, and on and on. For every one that considers a divorce the a mistake, there's several that know its the best thing that ever happened. Why do you seem to always identify yourself with the losers?


I don't. But they do serve as a cautionary tale. If I knew even one guy, personally, that said they were better off after the divorce, that would provide some counter.

If you say the stove is hot, I don't have to touch it to find out for myself.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Detachment is good for self-protection and self-preservation.
> 
> It is not good for inspiring a spouse to change or to work on things, especially if it is deep-seated fears of abandonment or feelings of unworthiness that are driving them. Then all you are doing is reinforcing those very things you want them to get over.
> 
> Detachment will only work if the spouse is overall healthy in self-esteem, and is just taking you for granted, or is playing the stupid mind games that some of the posters here are alluding to.


Which is why it so important that CopperTop get counseling now. Deep-seated fears of abandonment or feelings of unworthiness most often take professional help to successfully deal with these issues. If the person that has these issues won't seek help - their spouse can still benefit from professional help to learn how to deal with their spouse in a healthy way - healthy way for themselves and healthy way for their spouse.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> The only way I will ever be happy is to leave.


No. In order to be happy, you have to be *willing* to leave.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> CopprtTop - I have been round and round this same issue with other men in your same position. It's why I quit responding - because you all are so entrenched in your faulty thinking patterns - just as entrenched as the wives are in theirs- that you really can't see the trees in the forest anymore. And further more - when people point out the trees, your reaction is to close your eyes and not look at them. Instead - you keep pointing out just how big and vast the forest is. Yes - it is big and vast - but deal with one tree at a time and quit getting overwhelmed with how many there are to deal with!!
> 
> Some thoughts for you to consider
> 
> 1. You can stop being a husband without a divorce and without leaving the house. How do you do that? This thread is full of advice from others on how to do this. You were doing it - till she scared you by running away and reeled you back in. Basically you just stop being a husband. You become a friend to your wife instead - a polite, distant, not too involved with her - casual friend. Not a close friend, not her best friend. You co-parent, and you treat her with respect - but then you live a parallel life. Other than your children - you live a separate life. You do not have other relationships with the opposite sex - because you are still legally married - but you withdraw your love, your concern, and your time from the marital relationship, and you do the best you can to find happiness and fulfillment in other areas of your life.


Did this for the past year. It worked for a while, but then bitterness and resentment began to creep into me. I didn't like it and I didn't like who I was becoming. That's was like limbo... I can't go forward and I can't go back.

C2? She couldn't have been happier. I'm sure she would LOVE to go back to the way we were 6 or 8 months ago.

And she didn't scare me and reel me back in. I was hurt, and still am, but if she hadn't come back, that would have been a relief in some way. At least this horrible nothingness would be over. 





mary35 said:


> 2. Children - no matter how old - even when they are adults are hurt when their parents marriage breaks up. So no matter if you wait till they are out of the house to leave her - your children will still be hurt.


Yep. Completely agree. But they will be much better equipped to deal with it when they are not 15.





mary35 said:


> 3. For every behavior in life there are consequences and rewards. A normal person who gets rewarded for their behavior - usually continues that behavior. A normal person who faces consequences severe enough - and gets no rewards at all for a behavior - usually changes their behavior. How are you rewarding your wife for her behavior? The rewards need to stop - and she needs to see harsher consequences instead! See #1


See my response to #1. I have nothing to take from her other than my presence. 





mary35 said:


> 4. There is such a thing as individual counseling. You have given your wife a 3 month reprieve on counseling. Why don't you do individual counseling during that time? You are just as broken as your wife is. Get a start on fixing yourself. It often takes time - and weeding out to find a good counselor. So get started - and then you will have a good one in place for your wife. Also - A good therapists can help you see the trees again - and come up with a plan to deal with them. None of us on this forum is a professional (that I know of).


Perhaps so. 





mary35 said:


> 5. What do you do if still refuses counseling in June? I am pretty sure I answered this when I told you what to say to her. You basically have one choice - and that is to continue to work on yourself and find a way to be happy with your reality. But please understand - that if she refuses to go to counseling with you - that says it all about what her feelings are towards you and your marriage.


I agree. And that is what I have said all along, and the reason I started this thread. I was trying to find some way to deal with my reality. 

But then others made suggestions that I hadn't thought of or tried and I have decided to give it one last go. But over the last couple of days, my hope is dimming. I have nothing to offer as incentive to change short of leaving, and I'm just not sure I can do that.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Coffee Amore said:


> Because you don't stand up for yourself.
> 
> ...
> ...
> ...


Can you give me a specific example? As you suspected, I will say I respect myself. And I will even agree to your statement that I will put my family's wants and needs ahead of my own.

But how would you suggest that I stand up for myself my situation? How would you handle my position other than threatening to leave? 


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> See my response to #1. I have nothing to take from her other than my presence.
> 
> Copper


WRONG. Just like the episode with the not taking care of the car, she NOTICES when you do not cater to her every whim and desire. And it changes things. As much as you didn't like the manner in which she initiated, she DID initiate, and with VERY little effort on your part. You just had to make that effort (and struggled mightily).


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I don't. But they do serve as a cautionary tale. If I knew even one guy, personally, that said they were better off after the divorce, that would provide some counter.
> 
> If you say the stove is hot, I don't have to touch it to find out for myself.
> 
> ...


I know you don't "personally" know me Copper, but I divorced in 2003, and am FAR better off. Not only did I get custody of my child from the marriage (and could have gotten child support if I had pushed for it), I have since met the woman of my dreams and am well over a decade of happy marriage. While we have our occasional problems as well, the comparison of marriage #1 and #2 are night(mare) and day.

You DO seem to grab on to whatever worst case scenario and just go with it. As well as uplift your wife at every chance. We have said repeatedly she IS SELFISH. Period. Whether you want to call it intentional or not, it is what it is. There is no other way to take her being "willing" to have sex a few times a year and not taking any effort for you to get yours. S.E.L.F.I.S.H. And with the CLEAR significance you place on sex with her, if she is 1/10th as intelligent as you suggest, she absolutely knows the pain that that situation is causing you, and doesn't CARE.

I don't have the time to go back through to see if MEM gave the whole story of his experience, but the basic mechanics of it were this:

Both like the "relationship" aspect of being together, spending time, etc. If she doesn't want the sexual aspect of the relationship, then very well. But understand that you are therewith being released from any expectation of monogamy (as celibacy is NOT monogamy). 

You would accordingly then spend some of your time getting this need met from someone willing to do so, whatever that arrangement may be.

She should not have ANY problem with this suggestion. She chooses not to want sex, rejects your most basic desire. Ok. *Guaranteed* there are women out there who not only wouldn't reject you, but WOULD be desirous of you and what you could do to her physically. 

So there you have it. No divorce. No threats. Needs met. She gets what she wants. You get what you want. 

Except we both know that isn't how it will work. She wants total control of you. YOU have provided that all these years. You may *think* you're "alpha" or whatever nonsense, the leader, but she clearly has you by the balls, and besides some vague notion of not liking it, it hasn't sunken far enough in, or you've reacted to it such that inaction has become your coping mechanism.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I'm still fighting the good fight, but I think my prospects are dim that I can fix this. I'm nothing if not a realist. My company offers free counseling as part of our benefits. Perhaps I will take them up on it. Maybe they can help.
> 
> So many people here have said the same thing over and over. I have to bail. The only way I will ever be happy is to leave.
> 
> ...


If this is what you are reading - you are not reading carefully. What I have read is that most people are telling you to quit rewarding her for her bad behavior. If that means withdrawing emotionally from her - then do that. If it means withdrawing some of the nice things (that you don't have to do) for her - then do that. If it means standing up to her and telling her you will not accept cold sex anymore, and turning away from her when that is all she offers - then do that. We don't know your wife, we aren't privy to your day to day interactions - we can't give you the specifics. We are giving you general advice. Its up to you to decide if the general advice as value to your specific situation. 

And please understand - it is absolutely 100% OK for you to just go back and live the way you always have - and to try to find happiness doing that. That is always one of your choices. We are giving you other choices, things to try that may or may not work - based on what very limited knowledge we have about your situation - which is almost no knowledge. 

So remember, you get what you pay for. lol You really do need to seek out professional help. I hope you at least come to that realization from this thread!!! 

Oh - and as a pre-warning... if you come away from the counseling sessions - thinking - dang I am just wasting my time - I could come to these conclusions myself. Then you probably have a good therapists. Because - really - you already have most of the answers inside you. A good therapists just helps you focus enough to dig down deep and find them - and then teaches the skills you need to correctly implement the solutions.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> WRONG. Just like the episode with the not taking care of the car, she NOTICES when you do not cater to her every whim and desire. And it changes things. As much as you didn't like the manner in which she initiated, she DID initiate, and with VERY little effort on your part. You just had to make that effort (and struggled mightily).


Okay. I see now what you are saying now. 

Unfortunately, that is a very deeply ingrained trait of my personality. If you have read all the posts, you remember me talking about Ann.

One day we went to lunch in her car and the wipers were terrible. So, the next sunny day, I had her buy some wipers and I put them on her car for her. She didn't ask me to. She didn't even suggest it. But I wanted to. I wanted to help her out. And I did that without any thought or regard for recompense, and received none. 

That's the chivalrous part of me. I still open doors for elderly and ladies. I still give up my seat to the elderly and women. I still help the infirm and women load their cars with heavy items. 

I like that part of me. That's a tall order for me to change. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> If she doesn't want the sexual aspect of the relationship, then very well. But understand that you are therewith being released from any expectation of monogamy (as celibacy is NOT monogamy).
> 
> You would accordingly then spend some of your time getting this need met from someone willing to do so, whatever that arrangement may be.
> 
> ...


I get this... and I understand what you are saying. I know everyone is going to say I am just making excuses, but I can't do this. I just can't.

It goes COMPLETELY against everything I believe in. I would suffer guilt that I wouldn't be able to cope with. No. I will walk before I do this. 

That guilt I could live with. Cheating on my spouse, I could not.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Did this for the past year. It worked for a while, but then bitterness and resentment began to creep into me. I didn't like it and I didn't like who I was becoming. That's was like limbo... I can't go forward and I can't go back.
> 
> C2? She couldn't have been happier. I'm sure she would LOVE to go back to the way we were 6 or 8 months ago.
> 
> ...


Look - this is not going to be easy. Think back to how you raised your children. Think about how you have had to guide and direct their behavior. It really is the same concept - only you are dealing with an adult - and so you have to be smarter and quicker on your feet. It's not manipulation - any more than you were manipulating your children's behavior. Its called being firm, being fair, accepting nothing less than respectful and appropriate behavior. It's draining - I know that. Its much easier to back away and let your children walk all over you. It's much easier to back away and let your spouse walk all over you. 

Hopefully there is mutual respect and love between the spouses - when there is - it does not take a lot of effort to do behavioral modification in the marriage. It should just take you explaining that her behavior is hurting you and why. When there is mutual respect and love - a spouse that cares would then want to change their hurtful behavior. But when something has gone awry - and the spouse ignores the expressions that they are hurting the other - then more drastic measures have to be taken, and more effort expanded. And a person has to do a better job at setting their boundaries and expectations on how they will allow another to treat them. This is what MEM has tried to explain to you - and what he has done with his wife. It is similar to what you have to do when you have a child that does not respond to correction and instead rebels. The more they rebel - the harsher the consequences and also the more you try to catch them doing good things so they can see the rewards for doing good things. You don't want to ONLY do consequences. Often parents have to seek some professional help to deal with the child's issues when it looks like everything they know to do - has not worked. The same concepts can apply in a marriage. 

The basic concept of behavioral modification is the same with your spouse. Rewards and consequences. 

It is a natural consequence for men to distance themselves from wives who consistently and over a long time period reject them sexually. However - for whatever reasons, these same men feel guilty because of this reaction - and they think they are wrong to do withdraw from their wives. They feel like they are wrong to need sex, to want it with their wives, and to feel sexually wanted by their wives. So they over compensate - and fight the natural tendency. They try to be a good husband, and be more loving and more responsive to their wives needs. They hope this will help their wife want to then please them. But instead what they have done unwittingly - is reward their wife for rejecting them. And the cycle begins. When kids are involved - the kids then become the reason that they need to be a good husband and to treat their wives lovingly. And the cycle continues. The wife is happy - why would she not be?? She does not put much into the sexual relationship - and she still has a loving husband. Occasionally he gets really grumpy - so she puts out to get him back in line. Then the cycle continues. 

But what happens when the men shows her the natural consequence instead of rewarding her? 

Look - I know this is not as simple as I make it out to be. But heck - this is an internet forum - what do you want?? lol I am giving you a concept to think about.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Copper, if you think you have it bad there's lots of clowns on the bus...

The thing is, your wife knows your mindset and she's milking it for all it's worth. That mindset has to change. Even for the worse - it makes no difference. My kids mean the world to me also bit that does not prevent me from "Rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's"...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> And please understand - it is absolutely 100% OK for you to just go back and live the way you always have - and to try to find happiness doing that. That is always one of your choices. We are giving you other choices, things to try that may or may not work - based on what very limited knowledge we have about your situation - which is almost no knowledge.


I guess the thing that trips me up more than anything is not understanding why she does what she does. In every other way she treats me as if she cares deeply for me. 

I can't get my mind around why, in this one area, things are so difficult. My arguments seem logical and sound, yet she rejects them out of hand. 

It may be selfish, but why is she so in this area when she isn't like that at all in every other area.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

Based on extensive observation on TAM, most high functioning men in long term sexless marriages have very limited conflict management skills where their marriage is concerned.

And the reason for that boils down to one single fact. They are not willing to makes changes which cause their partner distress. 

In fact mostly, they continue to put a fair amount of effort into keeping their partners comfortable. 

Sure - they whine about sex now and again - but whining without consequence is worse than useless, it's counter productive because it reduces respect. 






mary35 said:


> Look - this is not going to be easy. Think back to how you raised your children. Think about how you have had to guide and direct their behavior. It really is the same concept - only you are dealing with an adult - and so you have to be smarter and quicker on your feet. It's not manipulation - any more than you were manipulating your children's behavior. Its called being firm, being fair, accepting nothing less than respectful and appropriate behavior. It's draining - I know that. Its much easier to back away and let your children walk all over you. It's much easier to back away and let your spouse walk all over you.
> 
> Hopefully there is mutual respect and love between the spouses - when there is - it does not take a lot of effort to do behavioral modification in the marriage. It should just take you explaining that her behavior is hurting you and why. When there is mutual respect and love - a spouse that cares would then want to change their hurtful behavior. But when something has gone awry - and the spouse ignores the expressions that they are hurting the other - then more drastic measures have to be taken, and more effort expanded. And a person has to do a better job at setting their boundaries and expectations on how they will allow another to treat them. This is what MEM has tried to explain to you - and what he has done with his wife. It is similar to what you have to do when you have a child that does not respond to correction and instead rebels. The more they rebel - the harsher the consequences and also the more you try to catch them doing good things so they can see the rewards for doing good things. You don't want to ONLY do consequences. Often parents have to seek some professional help to deal with the child's issues when it looks like everything they know to do - has not worked. The same concepts can apply in a marriage.
> 
> ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Okay. I see now what you are saying now.
> 
> Unfortunately, that is a very deeply ingrained trait of my personality. If you have read all the posts, you remember me talking about Ann.
> 
> ...


Ok - OK - we get I!!! You are a nice guy! Tall order for you to change and an impossible order for your wife to change! I am slow buy I got it. Clearly I am wasting my time here! I had a therapists say to me one time - You know there is a real problem when I am working harder at solving your problem then you are. He then explained that no matter what was suggested - I had a reason why that would not work!!! Ditto here on this thread!!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I guess the thing that trips me up more than anything is not understanding why she does what she does. In every other way she treats me as if she cares deeply for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't get my mind around why, in this one area, things are so difficult. My arguments seem logical and sound, yet she rejects them out of hand.



Ah... The experienced TAMmers can go on a coffee break while I fill in Copper with my "Tales from Paducah" series.

It makes little difference whether you know why she's doing it in terms of finding a solution. In my case I have several confirmed reasons and a few unconfirmed. I know every last neuron inside my wife's head. Every last one. I can predict her behavior with uncanny accuracy. Yet I'm still in the same spot. 

To me I can't fathom why she does not understand where we are headed. Door number one is an awesome retirement part time in my European birth country and the other half in a nice place here. And quite wealthy even after paying mid six figures to educate two kids. Door number two is the same for me, and she's back to her home country and her scheming relatives. Do I hear an echo of Duh's in the background??

But she prefers to throw it all away in her quest to avoid intimacy. Who am I to argue?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper- you are getting beat up a bit, so I will just start this response by saying I am really rooting for you and I totally understand all of your objections to the advice you're getting here.

It feels wrong to intentionally do things that are unkind. Especially to someone you love so much. It feels wrong to contemplate destroying this family you love so much.

But this is the wrong perspective. When you do this, you're looking at each individual act in isolation instead of the cumulative effect. 

Focus instead on the goal of this behavior. The goal is to create a marriage that you can both thrive within. The goal is to create a TRUE family, not the facade of one that conceals a very troubled reality.

I personally believe it is essential to recognize your own value to the degree that you have a walk away point. I don't believe you can have a healthy relationship unless both people are fully functional individuals capable of surviving apart.

But even if you disagree with this idea, there is something else you can work to internalize within yourself that is short of this. Namely, accepting that what your wife has to offer you at this point really isn't that great. 

That she's actually not worth all of this anguish and strategizing. That there is nothing more that you can really do for her and that, actually, there is no good reason that you need to maintain any particular level of service.

In other words, take her off of the pedestal you've put her on.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> From what you wrote - it sounded like for that one year period - you only withdrew asking her for sex - but was there for her in every other way. Maybe I misunderstood. If you truly totally withdrew from her, emotionally and physically - and led a separate life only interacting where the kids were concerned and she was the happiest she has ever been - then your marriage is already over. Bide your time till the kids are out - and run like the wind from this woman.


Okay. You got me there. I stopped touching etc, in addition to the pursuit, but when she came to me wanting to be held, etc, I did. And over the year she has begun to ask for more of this than she had.





mary35 said:


> Did you share this with her? If not - why not? You should!!!


I told her that she was wrong to do what she did and that it cut me deeply. I did not share the relief part. That just seemed mean. But she agreed she was wrong, and realized it, and that is why she came back. She promised not to do it again.





mary35 said:


> If you say so - but her quick and very harsh reaction to you being cold to her for a couple of days - tells me something very different. Are you sure about this???


Mary... honest to god... at this point I'm sure of nothing. She may very well throw herself at my feet and beg me to stay. But she could just as easily help me pack my bags.





mary35 said:


> What exactly has made your hope dim? What has she done or not done to make you feel this way. Or are you just finding that your efforts require a lot of work and take you out of your comfort zone just as much as it takes her out???


A couple of things. One is that nobody here believes she will change. Then there is the feeling I get when talking with her. I feel like I am talking to the dog. The dog is listening, but doesn't understand a word I say except a few key words. That is kind of the way I feel talking to C2. I don't think she understand me and my wants any more than I understand hers.





mary35 said:


> I am not sure I agree with your conclusion that the only incentive you have to offer is leaving. My gut feeling is that she is way more vested in you taking care of her and being there for her emotionally than you think at this moment


I'm depending on it. Because if I'm wrong, these changes are never going to happen. 





mary35 said:


> Look - this is not going to be easy. Think back to how you raised your children. Think about how you have had to guide and direct their behavior. It really is the same concept - only you are dealing with an adult - and so you have to be smarter and quicker on your feet. It's not manipulation - any more than you were manipulating your children's behavior. Its called being firm, being fair, accepting nothing less than respectful and appropriate behavior. It's draining - I know that. Its much easier to back away and let your children walk all over you. It's much easier to back away and let your spouse walk all over you.
> 
> Hopefully there is mutual respect and love between the spouses - when there is - it does not take a lot of effort to do behavioral modification in the marriage. It should just take you explaining that her behavior is hurting you and why. When there is mutual respect and love - a spouse that cares would then want to change their hurtful behavior. But when something has gone awry - and the spouse ignores the expressions that they are hurting the other - then more drastic measures have to be taken, and more effort expanded. And a person has to do a better job at setting their boundaries and expectations on how they will allow another to treat them. This is what MEM has tried to explain to you - and what he has done with his wife. It is similar to what you have to do when you have a child that does not respond to correction and instead rebels. The more they rebel - the harsher the consequences and also the more you try to catch them doing good things so they can see the rewards for doing good things. You don't want to ONLY do consequences. Often parents have to seek some professional help to deal with the child's issues when it looks like everything they know to do - has not worked. The same concepts can apply in a marriage.
> 
> ...


I get that. And reward/consequences thing is what I am working on with her now. But kids are easy compared to adults. They NEED you and you are in a position of strength. You can take away privileges and dole out rewards, etc. 

I'm good at this, and I have two great kids because of it. But C2 is a much tougher nut to crack. It is much harder to to find that reward/consequences ratio. 

But I'm working on it. I'm working very hard on it. 


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I guess the thing that trips me up more than anything is not understanding why she does what she does. In every other way she treats me as if she cares deeply for me.
> 
> I can't get my mind around why, in this one area, things are so difficult. My arguments seem logical and sound, yet she rejects them out of hand.
> 
> ...


Thais is why you need to start counseling even if she doesn't want to.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

An analogy just popped into my head--

You're campaigning for office. Your opponent plays dirty. Do you refuse to stoop to her level and lose or do you play to win?

You know you have the better ideas and will be a better leader. But it doesn't mean sh-t if you can't win.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> 
> Based on extensive observation on TAM, most high functioning men in long term sexless marriages have very limited conflict management skills where their marriage is concerned.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right, MEM! I have seen the same too. My husband is that way. What amazes me the most though - is that in other parts of their life - they have those skills and use them! Go figure!! But I will be honest with you - the more I read threads from these guys - the more I realize that it is not so much causing their partner distress - as it is dealing with the intense distress the wives dish back to them when they actually do muster enough courage to distress their wives. I guess some of us women are just more adept at grabbing their balls and holding on to them - then their co-workers or clients are!!! :scratchhead:

Ok - that was mean! Sorry!!!!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Workathome said:


> Thais is why you need to start counseling even if she doesn't want to.


:iagree::iagree:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Ok - OK - we get I!!! You are a nice guy! Tall order for you to change and an impossible order for your wife to change! I am slow buy I got it. Clearly I am wasting my time here! I had a therapists say to me one time - You know there is a real problem when I am working harder at solving your problem then you are. He then explained that no matter what was suggested - I had a reason why that would not work!!! Ditto here on this thread!!!!


No. I don't think you are wasting your time. I am thankful for the advice. 

I just can't get my mind around all the conflicting advice. I'm trying to balance all that with my core beliefs. 

Some say be nurturing and understanding, and lead her to a better place. Threats and withdrawing will simply drive her away. I like this approach because it fits well with me and how I like to be treated. 

Others are saying that I need to have more conflict, and stop letting her push me around. I can see this as well, but I feel like I have to be careful or I could destroy the very thing I am trying to protect. 

If I had a clear insight to what the problem is, I would have a better idea of what to do. Right now I am just trying to show her a better way, be there for her as I try to lead to the better place, and hopefully get her some professional help in about 3 months. 


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I can cause distress in seconds  but conflict management skills generally work only when both parties want resolution or when one party stands to lose big time due to the unresolved conflict.

Conflict management skills are generally rational processes that work well when those processes are followed. An LD does not see herself / himself as "at fault" and immediately projects upon the non LD. There's no conflict management skill set that will handle such irrational behavior. 

Humans are risk averse and reward seeking. That's part of our psyche or mindset for ever. Yet an LD throws this on it's head by being risk seeking (prefers to risk it all and guarantee negative outcomes by avoiding sex) and reward averse (by avoiding the rewards of intimacy).


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop, I feel for you. I think your wife can change, in fact, I know she can - if she wants to. It may not be to the extent you want - but I think things can be so much better for the two of you than they are now. 

But you are really going to have to work hard at fighting the urge to quit because of the uncomfortable feelings you are going to keep feeling and cause her to feel. Again - it is unavoidable. Change is uncomfortable. It just is. Stick it out for a year. Stand your ground. So far your requests are very reasonable and there is no real good reason for her to not follow through with them!!

Please - start looking for a good counselor, tomorrow!!! Don't feel like you have to stay with a bad one if you think you have one. Don't hesitate at all to change counselors if you don't click with one. You may have to try 2 or 3 to find one you like and feel good about. Just be sure that your being comfortable with them is not because they are easy going on you and not requiring you to reach down deep and do the work you need to do.

Remember - the counseling for your wife is non-negotiable. You have already stated this to her. Do not back down. I gave you the speech to use if she tries to back out it - use it!! Stand your ground - it is not an unreasonable request - given how long this has already gone on. Oh - and one very important warning - your wife is likely to ramp up the sex shortly before the first therapy session - and then tell you that therapy is not needed anymore. Don't fall for it - it is a ploy and the ramp up will not last. Seen this happen a million times at least. 

Another warning - When your wife starts going with you (notice the positive thinking here) do not allow her to insist on changing when she starts to feel uncomfortable and pushed by a counselor. And trust me - she will try to use this tactic often - especially when the counselor holds her accountable and requires effort. Be objective with the counselor - if you know they are just doing their job - and she is just being overly sensitive and just doesn't want to go where they are pushing her - call her on it! There are good counselors out there, but unfortunately - there are also some not so good ones! You are smart enough to recognize the difference and when she is just bucking the work needed. 

And the final advice - if money is an issue - don't let it be a stopping issue. I see this happen more often than not - money is used as the excuse to stop the counseling before it can work. My thoughts are always the same - isn't your marriage worth the extra expense and sacrifice of other things that are not as important? 

It will be well worth it in the end IF you stick it out and if you utilize the therapy to the best of your ability!!! Of course you have no control over what your wife chooses to do with the counseling, but at the very least - you will leave knowing what YOU want, what you need to do for yourself, and what YOU need to do for your family - and you will know YOU gave it your best shot.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I guess the thing that trips me up more than anything is not understanding why she does what she does. In every other way she treats me as if she cares deeply for me.
> 
> I can't get my mind around why, in this one area, things are so difficult. My arguments seem logical and sound, yet she rejects them out of hand.
> 
> ...


She is unhappy about her weight.

Therefore, other than actually losing weight (which is very, very hard), the best she can do is to try and avoid thinking about her weight.

The women, in general, do not feel good about sex if they are unhappy about their bodies.

It's hard to have sex without thinking about one's body.

Therefore, she avoids sex.

Intimacy often leads to sex. Therefore, she avoids intimacy.

She can't acknowledge (especially to herself) that she's avoiding sex because of her weight.

Therefore, you're a pervert.

If she is any kind of decent person, she'll feel bad about putting you through this, which makes her feel even worse.

However, the answer to this is NOT to avoid sex until she loses weight (nothing else has made her lose weight, so this probably won't either). Do everything else we've suggested, but hopefully this should help explain why she behaves this way regarding sex.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> No. I don't think you are wasting your time. I am thankful for the advice.
> 
> I just can't get my mind around all the conflicting advice. I'm trying to balance all that with my core beliefs. I get this problem for you, and I understand your confusion. It is important that you balance it with your core beliefs - as long as your core beliefs are correct ones.
> 
> ...


Please clarify - this is as much for you as it is for us - 
What is the better way? 
Exactly how are YOU leading her to a better place? 

And dang it - what is with the words "hopefully" and "get HER some professional help"? (beating head against a brick wall)

One final time

1. counseling is non-negotiable. You have already laid this out. The only out you gave her is if things have improved enough in 3 months. I will be blunt with you - if you give her that out you deserve what you are going to get. Of course things will NOT be improved enough - no matter how well they have improved. In 3 months, the call you have to make is that therapy is still needed IF you want any chance of long term lasting change. And you stand your ground on this! 

2. You both need therapy. It is not only about her issues - you have your own that has contributed to this - and they are as deeply entrenched as hers are!!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

john117 said:


> I can cause distress in seconds  but conflict management skills generally work only when both parties want resolution or when one party stands to lose big time due to the unresolved conflict.
> 
> Conflict management skills are generally rational processes that work well when those processes are followed. An LD does not see herself / himself as "at fault" and immediately projects upon the non LD. There's no conflict management skill set that will handle such irrational behavior.
> 
> Humans are risk averse and reward seeking. That's part of our psyche or mindset for ever. Yet an LD throws this on it's head by being risk seeking (prefers to risk it all and guarantee negative outcomes by avoiding sex) and reward averse (by avoiding the rewards of intimacy).


Yes - this is the case with some LD spouses - but not all. It may be the case with your wife - but does not mean it will be the case for C2. However - I understand why you are jaded. 

If after a year of counseling and giving it his best shot with real conflict management skills and rewards and consequences - and there is no change - then you will have another team mate to commiserate with. Until he tries - really really tries - he will not know if his wife is one of those LD's that you describe - will he?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

mary35 said:


> Yes - this is the case with some LD spouses - but not all. It may be the case with your wife - but does not mean it will be the case for C2. However - I understand why you are jaded.
> 
> 
> 
> If after a year of counseling and giving it his best shot with real conflict management skills and rewards and consequences - and there is no change - then you will have another team mate to commiserate with. Until he tries - really really tries - he will not know if his wife is one of those LD's that you describe - will he?



I'm more fascinated than jaded. With very few exceptions in my tenure in TAM, it's not difficult to see patterns of behavior that are pretty descriptive vis a vis LD. 

C could try MC with C2 and she could passive aggressive the therapist back to high school. It's not too difficult when the only reprimand is cold shoulder on the way home. And his case is pretty straightforward... 

To fix the situation there has to be clear motivation in C2 to address the issue. Everything we have seen so far points to the contrary. 

Real conflict management skills imply real outcomes and real consequences. In the current state she'll bolt once again and for longer every time. 

The key to influencing someone's behavior via any means is to understand them. Nothing here. Then to push buttons. Ditto. Boundaries. Ditto. And above all, to know if there is some hope of getting there.

Right now what's her incentive for change? Every LD case that was "fixed" in TAM shares a common aspect. The realization by the LD that the current status quo is unacceptable. I don't see this here. Few people have dealt with such determination to avoid intimacy. So, armchair quarterbacking nonwithstanding, few people can grasp the concept of being so afraid of intimacy as to put everything on the line to avoid it...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

That is exactly right. Early in our marriage I discovered that M2 was exceptionally skilled at emotional warfare. Far better at it than I am. 

She was able to trigger a strong anxiety response in me. That response was:
- Subjectively unpleasant 
- Sleep disruptive (physiologically tiring)
- Emotionally draining. 

It's equally true that during our first year M2 learned that I had sufficient emotional stamina and determination to enforce my shortlist of boundaries. 

She quickly learned that on any boundary I would state my position and then turn on 'defense mode'. This was 25 years ago, I had never heard of a 180. 

But faced with a partner who was incredibly skilled at working a man's emotional circuitry - I learned that by FAR the most effective response was to state my position, detach and go about my day. 

The main reason this worked was because *M2 truly loved my baseline affect - warm - playful - patient - supportive - considerate - amd generous both with time and money*. She threatened to leave numerous times - and was confused by my response. She knew I loved her - a LOT. And yet, threats to leave were met with immediate acceptance. Not aggressive anger. 

I smile and wince when the men on TAM say: Offer to help pack her bags. 

I never did that. It would imply I either wanted her gone, or if I didn't, that I was out of my mind with fear/hurt/anger. 

Instead, faced with her threat to leave I would just calmly say: Ok

And later when she apologized and acknowledged that she didn't want to end it - I'd smile and say: I'm glad, me either 






mary35 said:


> You are absolutely right, MEM! I have seen the same too. My husband is that way. What amazes me the most though - is that in other parts of their life - they have those skills and use them! Go figure!! But I will be honest with you - the more I read threads from these guys - the more I realize that it is not so much causing their partner distress - as it is dealing with the intense distress the wives dish back to them when they actually do muster enough courage to distress their wives. I guess some of us women are just more adept at grabbing their balls and holding on to them - then their co-workers or clients are!!! :scratchhead:
> 
> Ok - that was mean! Sorry!!!!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mem - it may be helpful to CopperTop if you discuss boundaries and enforcement of them of them in a little more detail. You have a way of explaining these things is far fewer words that make way more sense than my long dialogues. Plus it sounds like this is an area you have mastered with your wife.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

john117 said:


> I'm more fascinated than jaded. With very few exceptions in my tenure in TAM, it's not difficult to see patterns of behavior that are pretty descriptive vis a vis LD.
> 
> C could try MC with C2 and she could passive aggressive the therapist back to high school. It's not too difficult when the only reprimand is cold shoulder on the way home. And his case is pretty straightforward...
> 
> ...


Ouch - that is such a bleak picture you paint! Bleak and depressing. Yes most LD's have to come to the realization that the status quo is unacceptable - and that their behavior is contributing to the destruction of their relationship in order for a lasting change to happen. I am just not sure that we agree on when this realization has to happen. I have personally seen LD's start on the road to change without that realization. For some the realization you mention did not come until after they saw the benefits of not being LD anymore. I am one that this happened to. 

Call me an optimist (actually I am a realist), but I am just not ready to give up hope on this marriage yet. I know for a fact that there are too many variances in human beings and it is near impossible to paint any situation with one brush stroke. LD women are no different. There are many factors that cause a woman to become LD and even more motivational factors that can start a woman on the change road. Some women are only LD during specific parts of their life. Other have always been that way - and know nothing different. Not all who start on the change road, make it - some do. Some never deal with their LD issues, some deal with it short term, some are able to make lasting changes. Some husbands are responsible for their wives LD behavior, some are just unlucky and got a woman who came that way - and her behavior is totally unrelated to him. Some husbands leave, some find ways to stay and be happy, others stay and remain miserable and resentful and sometimes LD wives are the ones to end the marriage. No - there is not one paintbrush stroke. Similar LD behaviors - similar avoidance of sex, similar passive aggressive type behaviors, but not always similar outcomes - and definitely no 100 % certain predictable outcomes. At least - that is my experience. 

I have a question for you - and I hope you will answer it honestly and succinctly. What exactly are you saying to CopperTop and what are you advising him to do? This doom and gloom stuff is not helpful in my opinion - UNLESS one understands what you are saying and how the doom and gloom helps make your point. I for one am not sure I am understanding what it is you are saying or what your advice is. Can you clarify?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

1.) WRT core beliefs: What are your core beliefs for how a wife should treat her husband? How any spouse should treat a simple request from the other? 

Nothing that was suggested should violate any held core beliefs. The outside party for sexual needs is acknowledging that she has already broken vows, and a replacement is being suggested. The generic is "forsaking all others". In the sexual aspect, she has been forsaking YOU. As you search desperately for some rationalization for why she acts the way she does that DOESN'T mean she's selfish and uncaring, consider that as well.

There's a REASON you're having so much trouble "accepting" life the way it was/is. Because it is wrong, degrading, and insulting. Because you are becoming a "non-entity" for that facet of your being. You are not only being denied, but being shamed for a completely normal drive to be intimate with your wife. And I'm not ashamed to say it is INFURIATING to see someone who's mind has been so messed with as to accept this as some fluke of your wife's personality. 

Consider the short list of things you WOULDN'T do if your wife came to you pleading desperately for you to do something that could impact her happiness forever. 

Also consider the ramifications of the "bait and switch" mentality with respect to your relationship. As you mentioned already, there was a time when it was common to have sex on a more than acceptable basis. Now, unilaterally, she has decided that no longer applies. Why, then, does any of the benefits that CopperTop brings to the relationship have to apply? Simple answer: they don't.

2.) WRT "Threats and withdrawing will drive her away":
I CANNOT believe you have said this at this point. You withdrew, and got almost IMMEDIATE action/results. Were they perfect results? We all agree no. Were they different than the results hitherto. YES. New behavior was realized. STOP pre-emptively rejected valid pathways just because they are uncomfortable. You are your own worst enemy here.

3.) WRT "Careful not to destroy the thing I'm trying to protect":
This is quite simple the exact reason you are in this predicament. You care about the relationship, and she does not. Don't get me wrong, she finds value in it, but she KNOWS you aren't willing to take the big step. And you're not willing to even really shake that knowledge of hers unless you're already to the point of it being too late. Personally I disagree STRONGLY with that "core belief". Telling someone honestly that you are being pushed to your breaking point, and that it may cause you to leave is NOT coercion, it is being HONEST with your spouse. 

For the record: I personally place deceitful suggestions of marital harmony for a breakup after the kids are gone as WORSE than suggesting a mutually agreed upon open marriage. One involves open, honest communication. The other is blindsiding someone you say you love. Another "just consider this for a while" thought.

4.) Why in the WORLD did you agree to THREE months before evaluation for "progress". Progress could be shown in 3 minutes. Definitely in 3 hours. Undeniably in a week. THREE MONTHS??? As noted by others, there's a 90+% certainty factor that she will either wait out the 3 months and attempt to renege, or give some token improvement close to the end of the window. And then you're RIGHT back where you started. 

5.) Why no counseling immediately for you? Showing changes in YOU instantly is a sign that this time is different, both to you and her.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I just can't get my mind around all the conflicting advice. I'm trying to balance all that with my core beliefs.
> 
> Some say be nurturing and understanding, and lead her to a better place. Threats and withdrawing will simply drive her away. I like this approach because it fits well with me and how I like to be treated.
> 
> Others are saying that I need to have more conflict, and stop letting her push me around. I can see this as well, but I feel like I have to be careful or I could destroy the very thing I am trying to protect.


As you've likely guessed from my posts, I'm not a huge fan of the adversarial approach to marriage often pushed here. I disagree that marriage is a business deal where each negotiator is looking for the upper hand. I think that destabilizing is a kind of power play, and that detachment is more for self-protection than anything else.

But that said, I don't know that the advice is as conflicting and contradictory as you imagine. Or rather, while it often has been in the practical suggestions, some of the basic principles are very much the same.

1) first and foremost, you do matter, your needs matter, and if you are always giving in to hers, you'll always end up in the same place.

2) She is used to a certain way of things, and will not likely change without some motivation.

The real question then is what practical and useful ways you can assert your needs while motivating her to change.

And personally, I think threatening to leave and scaring her into toeing the line serves mostly to turn marriage into a war zone. You yourself said that she was the happiest you've ever seen her when you were giving her exactly what she wants and needs. What's missing in this picture is attention to you and your needs.

But since you have been doing exactly nothing for the past year, little before that, and only now have really started to foreground your needs, it strikes me that it is worth trying smaller steps before engaging in the full on war.

For example, touching exercises, setting aside time to work through issues, eg building intimacy through talk, etc. These things can have a major impact, but they do require great steadfastness as well. You will need to be resolute in what you need and desire.

Counseling is also a great suggestion and can help immensely in navigating this.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The gloom and doom is quite helpful in making one understand the depth of the hole they're in. This isn't a doe eyed new wife uncertain of her role or a frazzled mom of three under five. This is a "battle hardened" LD that will pull no punches to get her needs met while ignoring his needs.

As such my suggestions are simple:

- understand what you're dealing with 
- pay back in kind where possible
- completely detach for long term
- line up IC for himself and have MC ready just in case

Not too complex.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> CopperTop, I feel for you. I think your wife can change, in fact, I know she can - if she wants to. It may not be to the extent you want - but I think things can be so much better for the two of you than they are now.


That's all I'm asking for, and I'm willing to compromise to get there.





mary35 said:


> But you are really going to have to work hard at fighting the urge to quit because of the uncomfortable feelings you are going to keep feeling and cause her to feel. Again - it is unavoidable. Change is uncomfortable. It just is. Stick it out for a year. Stand your ground. So far your requests are very reasonable and there is no real good reason for her to not follow through with them!!


I won't quit for my sake, until I realize there is no more hope. I don't mind making her uncomfortable, so long as I am not being cruel or threatening.





mary35 said:


> Please - start looking for a good counselor, tomorrow!!! Don't feel like you have to stay with a bad one if you think you have one. Don't hesitate at all to change counselors if you don't click with one. You may have to try 2 or 3 to find one you like and feel good about. Just be sure that your being comfortable with them is not because they are easy going on you and not requiring you to reach down deep and do the work you need to do.


I have never done anything like this before, but the company offers this as a free service. I have an appointment for Wednesday. It is only for 30 minutes, and over the phone, and I only get three sessions, but it's a start. If I think it's helping, then we can go from there.





mary35 said:


> Remember - the counseling for your wife is non-negotiable. You have already stated this to her. Do not back down. I gave you the speech to use if she tries to back out it - use it!! Stand your ground - it is not an unreasonable request - given how long this has already gone on. Oh - and one very important warning - your wife is likely to ramp up the sex shortly before the first therapy session - and then tell you that therapy is not needed anymore. Don't fall for it - it is a ploy and the ramp up will not last. Seen this happen a million times at least.


I don't intend to back down. But I also know that when she doesn't want to do something, it is impossible to get her to do it. This is true of all areas of her life. 





mary35 said:


> Another warning - When your wife starts going with you (notice the positive thinking here) do not allow her to insist on changing when she starts to feel uncomfortable and pushed by a counselor. And trust me - she will try to use this tactic often - especially when the counselor holds her accountable and requires effort. Be objective with the counselor - if you know they are just doing their job - and she is just being overly sensitive and just doesn't want to go where they are pushing her - call her on it! There are good counselors out there, but unfortunately - there are also some not so good ones! You are smart enough to recognize the difference and when she is just bucking the work needed.


Agreed. I'm also concerned she may simply stop going. 





mary35 said:


> And the final advice - if money is an issue - don't let it be a stopping issue. I see this happen more often than not - money is used as the excuse to stop the counseling before it can work. My thoughts are always the same - isn't your marriage worth the extra expense and sacrifice of other things that are not as important?
> 
> It will be well worth it in the end IF you stick it out and if you utilize the therapy to the best of your ability!!! Of course you have no control over what your wife chooses to do with the counseling, but at the very least - you will leave knowing what YOU want, what you need to do for yourself, and what YOU need to do for your family - and you will know YOU gave it your best shot.


Money isn't an issue. We can well afford to pay for the help we need.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> If she is any kind of decent person, she'll feel bad about putting you through this, which makes her feel even worse.


I understand and agree. But she said something to me many moons ago that has really stuck with me.

We were talking about this, before I threw up my hands in frustration, and she said, "It's always about what you want. What about what I want?"

I honestly don't know how to answer that. It's almost as if she sees her desire to not have sex in the same way that I see my desire to have sex. This is what has always bothered me. 

I don't wish to have her to have to suppress her wants anymore than I want to have to suppress mine. 


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I honestly don't know how to answer that. It's almost as if she sees her desire to not have sex in the same way that I see my desire to have sex. This is what has always bothered me.



And that's where the distinction lies between the casual LD and the "battle hardened" LD.

Look up "reactive armor"... Or armour if you're British  that's what you're dealing with.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

When you first married, she played the YUCK card about sex. You want to touch what?? EWW How long did it take you to get her to touch your pe*is?

When being childish and unwilling to please you didn't work, she gained the weight in an effort to avoid sex. She was hoping that the heavier she gets, the less you will want her. You have thwarted her efforts at this, since it hasn't seemed to make you less interested in sex.

She won't get bariatric surgery, because if she were to lose the weight, you'd want her even more. There is no other reason why she hasn't lost the weight or gotten bariatric surgery. Especially since she has been given a shortened life span if she doesn't lose the weight.

She would rather die than have sex. You should not wait until June to get her into counseling.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Please clarify - this is as much for you as it is for us -
> What is the better way?
> Exactly how are YOU leading her to a better place?
> 
> ...


My core values:

1. Lead by example; do not expect more from others than you are willing to give

2. Be kind and thoughtful; do not be cruel or indifferent

3. Help those that are willing to help themselves

4. There are two sides to every argument; do not assume you are always right

5. Be slow to anger; be quick to forgive

6. When in doubt, refer to the Golden Rule


Here is what I worry about. The past year has been as good as any that I can remember in a while. We are touching more and she is as happy as I can remember her.

But the several years before weren't like that. It seems like we fought all the time. Sometimes, during a conflict, I would often come home and find that she had prepared dinner for everyone but me, for example. She was trying to express her displeasure with me. When I thought I was right and she was wrong on the issue I wouldn't say anything about it and go about my life. Much earlier in the marriage when she would try this I would tell her when she was done being mad, I would be there. Now I don't say that anymore because she knows. 

So after a few days of her giving me the cold shoulder she would stop. Sometimes she would apologize, sometimes she wouldn't. But when she was ready to be the woman I love again, and came back to me, I was always there to take her back.

Now, if I start pushing her away by withdrawing, and not being there when she is ready to get over her snit, why wouldn't she see that as I no longer care? Would she realize it? Absolutely. But it seems like that I would then be playing the same little petty games that she does. And why would she react any different than I did? If I no longer care, why should she make any effort to change? Then we grow apart because she is now withdrawing from me just as I am withdrawing from her.

This is why I'm concerned. Somebody has to make the first move or it's stalemate. 

The better way is the touching exercises that I have been shown. The better way is when MEM explained how I was actually hurting my progress by while I was trying to make it better. The better way is trying, once again, to draw her out, but without the overt come-on of trying to bed her.

The hopefully is because I recognize that she may be playing me and the counseling may not happen. I will fight like hell to make sure it does, but in the end, she has to want to go. Or I have to bind and gag her.

You are correct for calling me out on saying HER. I should have said US, as in marriage counseling.


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> If she is any kind of decent person, she'll feel bad about putting you through this, which makes her feel even worse.


The problem with LD people (Or at least my experience with one) is that they tend to use themselves as barometer of what's 'Normal' for the rest of humanity. 

If they don't want a sexual relationship, they're likely to view anyone else who wants one as something akin to a child clamoring for a desert that they don't really need.

And this is what makes it so hard. They can be very decent, good people and actually quite empathetic in other areas of life. (Again, in my experience with one.)


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> 
> That is exactly right. Early in our marriage I discovered that M2 was exceptionally skilled at emotional warfare. Far better at it than I am.
> 
> ...


This is, more or less, the dynamic in our relationship. I just haven't gone into "defense mode" over the sexual part of it. 

The reason I haven't is I'm not sure she see's it as she is wrong. She has clearly stated more than once, that the real problem with our sex life isn't her, it's me. The implication is that I'm not being reasonable with my demands and my boundary is unreasonable. 

So if I sit my boundary and I refuse to budge on it, and she does the same, and the boundaries are mutually exclusive, I see only one ending for that. 

That is why I want to get her to counseling. I'm hoping that a professional can convince her that her boundaries are, at the best, highly unusual, and perhaps she should consider revising them.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The professional's job is not to convince her but to provide a healthy framework within which she's going to have to decide. In practice she could spend two hours a day in therapy and war the therapist out with no change in behavior.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

It's not a game or a power play when you get to the point that you honestly don't think your LD spouse is worth investing in any longer.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> It's not a game or a power play when you get to the point that you honestly don't think your LD spouse is worth investing in any longer.



That's the 95% effort for 5% gain part of the lecture. Quite an accurate observation.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> We were talking about this, before I threw up my hands in frustration, and she said, "It's always about what you want. What about what I want?"
> 
> I honestly don't know how to answer that. It's almost as if she sees her desire to not have sex in the same way that I see my desire to have sex. This is what has always bothered me.


She does view it this way, virtually guaranteed. Moreover, she is right to assert her own sexuality, and is just as entitled to define hers as you are to define yours.

No doubt there is an impasse. But this is how I would've responded to your wife: No. Actually what happens here is that it's all about *you* and what you want. Never (almost never) is it about what I want.

It is good to realize her perspective is different than yours, but don't let her change the facts to suit her.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> It's not a game or a power play when you get to the point that you honestly don't think your LD spouse is worth investing in any longer.


Yes, it is. If you are done with the marriage, then just leave already. You don't need to torture the person on the way out.

Or, if you want one last ditch, last chance to get through, then maybe the power play is worth a shot. As long as it isn't sustained, it could jolt someone who is sleepwalking into awareness.

But it should be the last resort, not the first one advocated to everyone.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Sometimes, during a conflict, I would often come home and find that she had prepared dinner for everyone but me, for example.


I guess this is my biggest disconnect.

Why would you have any interest in being married to someone that would do something like this?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> 1.) WRT core beliefs: What are your core beliefs for how a wife should treat her husband? How any spouse should treat a simple request from the other?


Not like this.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Nothing that was suggested should violate any held core beliefs. The outside party for sexual needs is acknowledging that she has already broken vows, and a replacement is being suggested. The generic is "forsaking all others". In the sexual aspect, she has been forsaking YOU. As you search desperately for some rationalization for why she acts the way she does that DOESN'T mean she's selfish and uncaring, consider that as well.
> 
> There's a REASON you're having so much trouble "accepting" life the way it was/is. Because it is wrong, degrading, and insulting. Because you are becoming a "non-entity" for that facet of your being. You are not only being denied, but being shamed for a completely normal drive to be intimate with your wife. And I'm not ashamed to say it is INFURIATING to see someone who's mind has been so messed with as to accept this as some fluke of your wife's personality.
> 
> ...


No. I have never withdrawn from her in the way everyone suggests. Not the 180 type withdraw. When she is in a snit, for example, I have given her space to get over it on her own without me trying to coax her out of it. And when I pulled back, I stopped trying to seduce her, but that was about it. I have always been there to give her support, verbal or physical, anytime she wanted it.





ET1SSJonota said:


> 3.) WRT "Careful not to destroy the thing I'm trying to protect":
> This is quite simple the exact reason you are in this predicament. You care about the relationship, and she does not. Don't get me wrong, she finds value in it, but she KNOWS you aren't willing to take the big step. And you're not willing to even really shake that knowledge of hers unless you're already to the point of it being too late. Personally I disagree STRONGLY with that "core belief". Telling someone honestly that you are being pushed to your breaking point, and that it may cause you to leave is NOT coercion, it is being HONEST with your spouse.
> 
> For the record: I personally place deceitful suggestions of marital harmony for a breakup after the kids are gone as WORSE than suggesting a mutually agreed upon open marriage. One involves open, honest communication. The other is blindsiding someone you say you love. Another "just consider this for a while" thought.


First, with the exception of our sex lives, I am actually pretty happy. I would have never made it this long if I weren't. 

But I can state categorically, she would never go for an open marriage and I wouldn't either. Why be married if I were going to do this?





ET1SSJonota said:


> 4.) Why in the WORLD did you agree to THREE months before evaluation for "progress". Progress could be shown in 3 minutes. Definitely in 3 hours. Undeniably in a week. THREE MONTHS??? As noted by others, there's a 90+% certainty factor that she will either wait out the 3 months and attempt to renege, or give some token improvement close to the end of the window. And then you're RIGHT back where you started.


Because after this long, what's another 3 months? I can use this time to try to get her used to talking about our problems... something that has been difficult in the past. Plus, she said she would make a good faith effort to change this time. I want to give her that chance. 

Also, things have been much better this past year, since I stopped the seduction. Maybe, just maybe, she realizes now it's NOT just about sex and we can make some progress.





ET1SSJonota said:


> 5.) Why no counseling immediately for you? Showing changes in YOU instantly is a sign that this time is different, both to you and her.


I start Wednesday.


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The reason I haven't is I'm not sure she see's it as she is wrong. She has clearly stated more than once, that the real problem with our sex life isn't her, it's me. The implication is that I'm not being reasonable with my demands and my boundary is unreasonable.


Why does she think your boundary is unreasonable? Does she ever give reasons/thoughts about this?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> As you've likely guessed from my posts, I'm not a huge fan of the adversarial approach to marriage often pushed here. I disagree that marriage is a business deal where each negotiator is looking for the upper hand. I think that destabilizing is a kind of power play, and that detachment is more for self-protection than anything else.
> 
> But that said, I don't know that the advice is as conflicting and contradictory as you imagine. Or rather, while it often has been in the practical suggestions, some of the basic principles are very much the same.
> 
> ...


No arguments from me on any of the above.





always_alone said:


> For example, touching exercises, setting aside time to work through issues, eg building intimacy through talk, etc. These things can have a major impact, but they do require great steadfastness as well. You will need to be resolute in what you need and desire.


This is EXACTLY what we have been doing each night since our little spat the other night after I "rejected" her. 





always_alone said:


> Counseling is also a great suggestion and can help immensely in navigating this.


If she holds to her end of the bargain, we will either fix this problem in the next three months or we will begin counseling.


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> And that's where the distinction lies between the casual LD and the "battle hardened" LD.
> 
> Look up "reactive armor"... Or armour if you're British  that's what you're dealing with.



Battle-hardened? I think not. Someone who is battle-hardened is cold, calculating, and is only about the strategy. 

Reactive and defensive? Yes. But not in a terribly thoughtful way, at least from how Copper describes her actions. 

My take is that she's just used to having him work hard to make her feel better all of the time, and so expects more of the same.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> The problem with LD people (Or at least my experience with one) is that they tend to use themselves as barometer of what's 'Normal' for the rest of humanity.


This is the problem with HD people too. They think because someone doesn't get into sex that they are just selfish, controlling, cruel, and have no grasp on reality.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> When you first married, she played the YUCK card about sex. You want to touch what?? EWW How long did it take you to get her to touch your pe*is?


Has never happened that I can recall.





Workathome said:


> When being childish and unwilling to please you didn't work, she gained the weight in an effort to avoid sex. She was hoping that the heavier she gets, the less you will want her. You have thwarted her efforts at this, since it hasn't seemed to make you less interested in sex.


You are projecting. There is no way for you to know this, and evidence contradicts you. The weight came during pregnancy. She put on the weight while bearing children and never lost it.





Workathome said:


> She won't get bariatric surgery, because if she were to lose the weight, you'd want her even more. There is no other reason why she hasn't lost the weight or gotten bariatric surgery. Especially since she has been given a shortened life span if she doesn't lose the weight.
> 
> She would rather die than have sex. You should not wait until June to get her into counseling.


She is losing the weight now. This is the most dogged about I have seen her. She has a long way to go, but every journey begins with one step.

June is only a few months away. I have given her my word that we would wait. I will stand by it.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> But this is how I would've responded to your wife: No. Actually what happens here is that it's all about *you* and what you want. Never (almost never) is it about what I want.


Ooohhh... I like that. May I use it?


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I guess this is my biggest disconnect.
> 
> Why would you have any interest in being married to someone that would do something like this?


Because this is the rare exception, not the rule. 

Everyone deals with anger in their own way. I have been bombarded with this exact advice. Why would me doing something like this to her to express my displeasure be any different?


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She earned her Bedroom War Campaign ribbon when she did not get her way and walked out on C. That's hardly the sign of merely a reactive and defensive person.

That's cold and calculating - and believe me, I know cold and calculating when I see it. I are one. The reactive and defensive would have waited for a few more occurrences before proclaiming it was too much for her.

She wanted to nip the situation in the bud.. Hence the fleeing...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Why does she think your boundary is unreasonable? Does she ever give reasons/thoughts about this?


Nothing hard and fast. That's what makes the problem so slippery and hard to get my hands around. 

The thrust of her argument is, I have an unreasonable sex drive. I'm over sexed and I am asking for an onerous amount of sex. And no matter how much I get, I'm never satisfied. So why should she even bother to try? Nothing she does will ever be enough. 

Oh, and by the way, I'm not in as good of shape as you are, so I CAN'T keep up with you.

Allow me to state, because I have been accused of it at least one already, I KNOW what I am asking for is not outside the realm of possibility. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> My take is that she's just used to having him work hard to make her feel better all of the time, and so expects more of the same.


Yes. MEM pointed this out to me hundreds of post ago. I wasn't even aware before then how I was shooting myself in the foot.

I'm trying to not do that anymore.


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> This is the problem with HD people too. They think because someone doesn't get into sex that they are just selfish, controlling, cruel, and have no grasp on reality.



Anyone who would rather blow up her marriage over sex fits the above quite nicely except the cruel part.

The cruel part is fulfilled by her behavior in the rare occasions they're actually having sex.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Ooohhh... I like that. May I use it?


Of course! 

Just don't forget the royalty payments!! (joking!)


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The thrust of her argument is, I have an unreasonable sex drive. I'm over sexed and I am asking for an onerous amount of sex. And no matter how much I get, I'm never satisfied. So why should she even bother to try? Nothing she does will ever be enough.


Have you ever talked numbers as to what counts as onerous? Or more to the point, have you ever given her an indication of what *would* satisfy you, such that what she does *is* enough?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

We had our talking/touching session last night. 

I get the feeling she is just going through the motions. I think she likes the touches and caresses, I know that she does in certain circumstances, but I don't know that we are going anywhere with it. 

The cuddling at night is nice. Very nice. I have missed that for a long time. I just wish she would stay awake for longer than 60 seconds. She rolls in close, wiggles once or twice... then snoring.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Of course!
> 
> Just don't forget the royalty payments!! (joking!)


If that is what snaps her out of this malaise we are in, I would GLADLY pay royalties, send flowers, whatever you want.


Copper


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> She earned her Bedroom War Campaign ribbon when she did not get her way and walked out on C. That's hardly the sign of merely a reactive and defensive person.
> 
> That's cold and calculating - and believe me, I know cold and calculating when I see it. I are one. The reactive and defensive would have waited for a few more occurrences before proclaiming it was too much for her.
> 
> She wanted to nip the situation in the bud.. Hence the fleeing...


Oh, c'mon John, that's not calculating at all. She was trying to reach out to him, to get him to be happy with her again, he rebuffed her, and she freaked out and ran.

Then came back full of fear and guilt and apologies. 

If she was cold and calculating, she would have been plenty happy with the rebuff -- as that would've been what she was trying to achieve.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Nothing hard and fast. That's what makes the problem so slippery and hard to get my hands around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is one of the funniest and most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Oversexed??? She know you haven't had it in over a year, not even once, right? Not even masturbation. Perhaps she doesn't understand the concept of oversexed.  you are getting so played.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> We were talking about this, before I threw up my hands in frustration, and she said, "It's always about what you want. What about what I want?"
> 
> *I honestly don't know how to answer that.* It's almost as if she sees her desire to not have sex in the same way that I see my desire to have sex.


The short answer here is because she voluntary entered into the covenant of marriage and because marriage is inherently a sexual arrangement inasmuch as it revolves around the notion of emotional and sexual exclusivity. 

Everyone has the right to assert their own sexuality, and individually, one person is just as entitled to define their sexuality as the next one is. 

However, marriage is an abridgement of that right. If you are unable or unwilling to remain faithful to your spouse because you feel that your sexuality is best expressed with a variety of partners, then you probably have no business being married. 

Conversely, if you are unable or unwilling to honor the concomitant obligation that goes hand in hand with the promise that you spouse's emotional and sexual needs will never be met by anyone but you, "...for as long as you both shall live together on earth," then you probably have no business being married. 

I'm not saying this because I think you should repeat this to your wife. (You shouldn't.) I'm saying this so you will quit being shocked into speechlessness and understand that your expectations are legitimate.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The cuddling at night is nice. Very nice. I have missed that for a long time. I just wish she would stay awake for longer than 60 seconds. She rolls in close, wiggles once or twice... then snoring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Think about what this means. This is what zero effort and contentment looks like. She has no problem going right to sleep because she has you right back under her thumb.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Have you ever talked numbers as to what counts as onerous? Or more to the point, have you ever given her an indication of what *would* satisfy you, such that what she does *is* enough?


Some. It has been a long while though. 

Onerous is anything over maybe six-eight times a year. This is just my perception but I suspect it is close. 

I told her straight out once that every other day would be fantastic (I kept the fact that every day would be even better to myself) but if we could manage even a couple of times a week that would be great.

Absolute rejection. So I immediately suggested once a week. Another rejection. Then to be just a ass, I suggested once a month, and was a little snarky about it. Made her mad, and that was the end of the conversation. 

But again, that was some time ago and she was feeling pressured and resentful. Maybe I will ask her tonight in our talk, now that she no longer feels so pressured and resentful. I may get a different answer this time.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Think about what this means. This is what zero effort and contentment looks like. She has no problem going right to sleep because she has you right back under her thumb.


At least she will let me cuddle now. That is a vast improvement over the last few years. 

We are working the problem. It has only been a few days and I hope as we continue along this road, I will be begin to see additional signs of progress.


Copper


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

From my perspective, I can clearly see that you and your wife have one major characteristic.

You absolutely want what's best for C2. 

And C2 absolutely wants what's best for C2, as well.

In your posts, I see a situation that sickens me - because it is so much like my own relationship. Or at least the way my relationship was until I started working on myself.

The default position in your relationship is that wife is always right. Wife's needs are more important than your own. This would be my philosophy. I'd joke with friends that "If Momma wasn't happy, then nobody was happy."

This outlook was an epic fail on my part and taught my children some very unhealthy family dynamics. I wound up caving on issues when I should've stood my ground - for everyone's benefit.

The "chivalrous family provider nice guy" approach works brilliantly if you have a partner on the other side who responds to your actions in the right way. Someone who brings more to the table, makes your life more complete - a woman who knows how lucky she has it and goes out of her way to show her appreciation for everything you do. When THAT Momma is happy, then that translates into more happiness for everybody in the family. The happiness literally radiates from a strong mutual bond and commitment between husband and wife.

Took me 15 years to figure out that I don't live in that fantasyland. (and Guess what, neither do you.) We have to recognize that we have flaws and that our partners have flaws, as well.

In our case, we have wives who can be emotionally selfish - women who will take as much as is handed to them. The former me (and the current you) hands everything over - meeting all their needs because that is what good men are supposed to do. And when you fall short of the mark, you get punished. (No dinner for you, bad boy.) 

But what happens when she falls short of the mark? No sex. Do you disapprove or take away anything from her? No, she goes merrily about her way with a dutiful husband at her beck and call. 

It actually makes me mad that she's happy as a canary for a year when you take issue of sex off the table. Never mind what it does to you. Never mind how it makes you feel. She finally doesn't have to listen to you whine about it anymore. Hey, everything's finally great. C2 is finally getting everything she wants and CopperTop lives in unfulfilled misery. Doesn't this make you mad?

At the end of the day, the treatment you get from her is exactly the treatment you are willing to accept. You've been eating sh*t for 20+ years, why would she want to change the dynamic now? 

You have the choice of two discomforts. Either you can rug-sweep this and continue limping through a partnership that is unsatisfactory to you (at least I'm assuming it's not optimal because you're on this site.) Or, you can bite the bullet and start communicating exactly what you need from this relationship. 

Now, if you stand up for yourself, she may very well quit or leave the relationship. I'm sure you can give us a laundry list of reasons why that would be a bad thing. 

The only assurance I can give you for the future is that if you do start standing up for yourself and your needs, you will at least be "eligible" to find happiness at some point down the line. If you rug-sweep, that hope would be extinguished.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Two thoughts:

1. pregnancy does not cause one to get to 300 lbs. There are plenty of women who gain very little weight during pregnancy and plenty who lose whatever weight they gain. Pregnancy is not an excuse.

2. honestly, the best case scenario for your personal happiness would be to divorce. you have a very low liklihood of success otherwise. The withdrawal advice prepares you for divorce. After so many years most people won't just be able to walk out the door one morning. You need to work up to this. If you're not at the point where this is a dealbreaker for you than this path is not for you. But then again if it's not a dealbreaker for you then you probably will just keep taking what you're getting.

I'm repeating myself at this point so I'll just bow out now.

Good luck and I hope you find happiness however you can.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Below is the paradox that I have fully accepted:

- Like most HD folks, I want M2 feel desire (lust) for me
- Mostly she does not feel that way
- She DOES however crave my company, touch, voice, smile and conversation
AND
- She does have a strong desire to please me 
- Expresses that in bed a couple times a week
- Knows that I want lust, but NEED honesty - so she doesn't fake desire or orgasm

M2 knows that I ACCEPT that she's LD just as much as she accepts I'm HD. 






always_alone said:


> This is the problem with HD people too. They think because someone doesn't get into sex that they are just selfish, controlling, cruel, and have no grasp on reality.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Anyone who would rather blow up her marriage over sex fits the above quite nicely except the cruel part.


And yet, time and time again, this is the advice I have been given. You have to be willing to go to the mat, to blow up the marriage if that is what it takes. And why?

Over sex.


Copper


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You can make all the excuses in the world for your wife but she just sounds plain selfish to me and wants to get her own way like a spoiled child. Perhaps you should start treating her as one. I bet she doesn't have any interest in meeting your needs, she is just planning to stall and wear you down til things go back to the way she likes them - no sex or selfish sex on her part. She gets what she wants and you are left hanging. What a selfish, selfish woman your wife is.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Oh, c'mon John, that's not calculating at all. She was trying to reach out to him, to get him to be happy with her again, he rebuffed her, and she freaked out and ran.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We will agree to disagree here - she bolted the first time, and while she came back with guilt and apologies, little progress is made in the grand scheme of things. 

As of now she's calling the shots despite her actions so I'm pretty sure it's all by design, appearances be darned.

We will see. You have a more positive view of people in general I suppose while I don't .


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> And yet, time and time again, this is the advice I have been given. You have to be willing to go to the mat, to blow up the marriage if that is what it takes. And why?
> 
> 
> 
> Over sex.



Over having sex. Not over avoiding sex.

The first one is typical in a healthy marriage. The second is not.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Below is the paradox that I have fully accepted:
> 
> - Like most HD folks, I want M2 feel desire (lust) for me
> - Mostly she does not feel that way
> ...


If you can give me one more bit of advice. How do I get C2 to be like M2? 

A lot of what you describe for M2 also applies to C2. Since I took sex off the table, your description of M2 could BE C2.


Copper


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

karole said:


> You can make all the excuses in the world for your wife but she just sounds plain selfish to me and wants to get her own way like a spoiled child. Perhaps you should start treating her as one. I bet she doesn't have any interest in meeting your needs, she is just planning to stall and wear you down til things go back to the way she likes them - no sex or selfish sex on her part. She gets what she wants and you are left hanging. What a selfish, selfish woman your wife is.


Quoted for truth. 100 x Over. 

And you have no one to blame but yourself for this. If she was this selfish when dating, you probably wouldn't have married her. YOU have trained her that this is an acceptable way to treat her husband. YOU are the only one who can set boundaries illustrating that this is no longer acceptable.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Copper,

The woman you describe is repulsive, as all morbidly obese people are. Why would you want to have sex with her? If she were to assume the cowgirl position, what would become of you?

I can accept that you love her and you need to be intimate to keep that love alive. But since she does not see this, she is simply wilfully self destructive. Her desire is not to accept liking sex means that she is wants divorce.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Huge mistake to focus on frequency at this point in the process.

HUGE mistake.

Your SOLE focus needs to be on trying to find a way to make the OVERALL experience positive for her. If you succeed at that, a discussion of frequency won't be a bone on bone - awfully painful conversation where her ideal outcome is zero and yours is every other day. 

And to be fair - C2 believes she's conveyed that she doesn't like it. So she believes you are being selfish pressuring her to do something you know she dislikes. 

I'm KNOW you've done everything possible to figure out how to make it a physically positive experience for her. 

Well - that's just it - maybe you haven't done everything. 

If you can get her to trust you - maybe she'll tell you what parts of it and/or why she doesn't like it. 

Because overall - the experience is net negative for her. Else she wouldn't be in aggressive avoidance mode....




CopperTop said:


> Some. It has been a long while though.
> 
> Onerous is anything over maybe six-eight times a year. This is just my perception but I suspect it is close.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Copper,
> 
> The woman you describe is repulsive, as all morbidly obese people are. Why would you want to have sex with her? If she were to assume the cowgirl position, what would become of you?
> 
> I can accept that you love her and you need to be intimate to keep that love alive. But since she does not see this, she is simply wilfully self destructive. Her desire is not to accept liking sex means that she is wants divorce.


Then she should come out and ask for it. I will let her leave if she asks. I want her to be happy, and if leaving makes her happy, then I can accept that.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Huge mistake to focus on frequency at this point in the process.
> 
> HUGE mistake.


Okay. It's off the table.





MEM11363 said:


> Your SOLE focus needs to be on trying to find a way to make the OVERALL experience positive for her. If you succeed at that, a discussion of frequency won't be a bone on bone - awfully painful conversation where her ideal outcome is zero and yours is every other day.
> 
> And to be fair - C2 believes she's conveyed that she doesn't like it. So she believes you are being selfish pressuring her to do something you know she dislikes.


You've once again cut to the crux of the problem. That is exactly how I think she sees me. That's probably why things are so much better now. Perhaps she no longer sees me as being so selfish since I have given her a year of peace. 





MEM11363 said:


> I'm KNOW you've done everything possible to figure out how to make it a physically positive experience for her.
> 
> Well - that's just it - maybe you haven't done everything.
> 
> ...


Okay. I wish I knew what to do. I think this problem is above my pay grade to solve. I'm mostly trying to build bridges that will help us WHEN (note the positive attitude Mary) we start counseling in June.


Copper


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2's behavior is a response to MY behavior. 

If you want C2 to be more like M2, you need to be more like me.

That thing you did regarding C2's gas tank - I did that from the start. 

That said, there's a massive difference between that and making dinner for everyone but your spouse. 

The former is choosing not to volunteer a loving act of service. The latter is an overt act of hostility. 

I would never recommend the type of overt hostility that C2 engages in. But choosing not to volunteer acts of service - isn't cruel - and is effective. 

Your problem is that if C2 is upset - even by her own doing - you have a compulsive need. A compulsive need to protect her from the consequences of her own actions. 

I don't suffer from such a need. 




CopperTop said:


> If you can give me one more bit of advice. How do I get C2 to be like M2?
> 
> A lot of what you describe for M2 also applies to C2. Since I took sex off the table, your description of M2 could BE C2.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nice try. Nothing's above your pay grade in your marriage. 

That said, the exercise below is targeted at exactly this - issue. 

Copper: The next time we - connect - I'm going to do what I usually do - but I want YOU to stop me when we get to the point where you don't like how it feels. 
C2: (confused) what? 
Copper: Somewhere in between starting and you reaching the rapture - it feels bad for you. That's part of why you aren't real fond of connecting. So I just want you to say 'stop', when we get to the point where it feels bad for you. And I do not want you to worry about whether or not I'm getting turned on and will be frustrated. Don't stop us - to prevent THAT. Stop us when - whatever I'm doing is making you feel bad. 






CopperTop said:


> Okay. It's off the table.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> M2's behavior is a response to MY behavior.
> 
> If you want C2 to be more like M2, you need to be more like me.
> 
> ...


I acknowledge that WAS true. But after you showed me how that was detrimental, I might want to do it, but I won't. 

I just want to be absolutely clear here so I don't screw this up. So long as things are improving, I should continue to provide the "acts of service," correct, to encourage her continued progress and good behavior. 

I should withhold these acts if she begins to regress or in some other way fails to do what she said she would do.

This is my understanding, but please correct if I am wrong.


Copper


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> This is the problem with HD people too. They think because someone doesn't get into sex that they are just selfish, controlling, cruel, and have no grasp on reality.


Without a doubt there are plenty of egocentric HD people running around too.  

I would submit though, that needs in a relationship are defined by the person who is in need and that it is illegitimate to attempt to define the word, 'need' by its exact opposite. 

Therefore, if a man, for example, is content to allow his wife to emotionally waste away and starve simply because he does not have the same need that she does for quality time spent together, stimulating conversation, kind words and compliments, sympathy and genuine personal interest, then he is in fact, selfish, controlling and cruel with little grasp of reality.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

YES

The trajectory is ALL that matters. If she's making a good faith effort - you continue to be your normal loving self. 

And creating a positive association between touch and feeling nice is massively important. And getting C2 to touch YOU in a way that feels nice has to be part of this process. 

That said, when she has clearly jumped the rails and is ignoring her commitment:
1. Don't talk about it - because:
- she knows 
- she knows that YOU know she knows 
- this is called common knowledge (everyone knows that everyone knows)

Talking about common knowledge is weak. Don't know why, it just is. And weak is a universal turn off. Therefore, when this happens, you start cutting back on acts of service and reassurance. First the voluntary stuff, and then if she blows through that and starts asking you explicitly to do stuff your response needs to be: 
I think it would be better if you took care of that this week. 

That's called a low voltage feedback loop. 



QUOTE=CopperTop;12049713]I acknowledge that WAS true. But after you showed me how that was detrimental, I might want to do it, but I won't. 

I just want to be absolutely clear here so I don't screw this up. So long as things are improving, I should continue to provide the "acts of service," correct, to encourage her continued progress and good behavior. 

I should withhold these acts if she begins to regress or in some other way fails to do what she said she would do.

This is my understanding, but please correct if I am wrong.


Copper[/QUOTE]


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Without a doubt there are plenty of egocentric HD people running around too.
> 
> I would submit though, that needs in a relationship are defined by the person who is in need and that it is illegitimate to attempt to define the word, 'need' by its exact opposite.
> 
> Therefore, if a man, for example, is content to allow his wife to emotionally waste away and starve simply because he does not have the same need that she does for quality time spent together, stimulating conversation, kind words and compliments, sympathy and genuine personal interest, then he is in fact, selfish, controlling and cruel with little grasp of reality.


Fair enough. My point, though, wasn't to say that we should define a need by it's exact opposite. What we have here is not one person with a need and one person who doesn't want to fill it. What we have is two people with very differing sets of needs that, if they are to stay together and be happy, they need to find a way to reconcile. 

This should involve both sides being willing to step outside what they want.

ETA: The analogue to your example is not just that the man is indifferent, that is, doesn't have that same need -- but actually has his own contradictory need -- for personal space, privacy, alone time, what have you.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Huge mistake to focus on frequency at this point in the process.
> 
> HUGE mistake.
> 
> ...


Very good point! The frequency discussion will have to happen, but it really is much more important that she realizes that sex is a net positive. Not just for you, but for her.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> YES
> That said, when she has clearly jumped the rails and is ignoring her commitment:
> 1. Don't talk about it - because:
> - she knows
> ...


Really? I'm a proponent of calling people out on this stuff. Maybe that makes me weak, I don't know. But the fact remains that it is very easy to rationalize these things privately to oneself, and assuming they know what you know can be a very dangerous thing. 

And then following up, not by talking, but by punishing certainly does send a very strong message, as actions do speak much louder than words. But I think it also very likely that this can slip-slide into tit-for-tat mind-game territory. 

Once we start acting out our resentments, instead of talking them out, don't we run the risk of just feeding the problem?

(I realize that your advice is grounded in boundaries, and not resentment, but at the same time, wonder if refusing to talk about it increases the odds of these two things being confused.)


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> We had our talking/touching session last night.
> 
> 
> The cuddling at night is nice. Very nice. I have missed that for a long time. I just wish she would stay awake for longer than 60 seconds. She rolls in close, wiggles once or twice... then snoring.
> ...


This is to make absolutely sure that you know there will be no sex. She sounds like she suffers from sleep apnea. Most people who fall asleep as soon as their head hits the pillow are sleep deprived from sleep apnea.

Does she snore?


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Has never happened that I can recall.
> 
> Copper



Copper,

I don't think your wife understands what making love is....

She has never touched your pen*s?

So you get her off multiples times, climb on board until she says you have to stop because she's dry....... You don't get an orgasm....

That's not making love. I'm not sure what it is.

I'm actually glad you've never had a BJ or amazing sex. It would kill you if you knew what you were missing.

I'm not sure why I have been so drawn into your story, except for the fact that my husband and I went through a pretty protracted dry spell. There were some specific reasons for it, but I can say we sure made up for it since. I'm a firm believer in wild monkey sex until yout manparts fail. I sure hope that you get to experience that!


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> This is to make absolutely sure that you know there will be no sex. She sounds like she suffers from sleep apnea. Most people who fall asleep as soon as their head hits the pillow are sleep deprived from sleep apnea.
> 
> Does she snore?


Yes, if she isn't lying on her side, she does snore. And she does complain about being tired all the time. On the other hand, when I suggest going to be early (even if I am not joining her) she refuses to go.

I'm trying to remember if she was tested for apnea, but I can't recall one way or the other. I will say if she has it, it's not severe. There have been many a night that I have lain awake and her breathing is as regular as a metronome and she moves very little. 

It is more likely that I keep her awake because I am a restless sleeper. I toss and turn all night most nights. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Copper,
> 
> I don't think your wife understands what making love is....
> 
> She has never touched your pen*s?


Not that I recall, no. And we were married about five years before she would allow me to touch her... there. She has always been rather sexually repressed. But stupid me, I thought she would loosen up some as we became closer and more intimate with each other. That was the way it was with another. The longer we were together, the better it got.





Workathome said:


> So you get her off multiples times, climb on board until she says you have to stop because she's dry....... You don't get an orgasm....
> 
> That's not making love. I'm not sure what it is.


To be fair to her, most times I stop on my own because I can tell she is going dry.





Workathome said:


> I'm actually glad you've never had a BJ or amazing sex. It would kill you if you knew what you were missing.


My first (and only other) lover was much different. No oral sex from her, but otherwise it was pretty awesome. So yeah, I know what I'm missing. I would love to do to C2 all the things that woman taught me... but she just isn't interested. 





Workathome said:


> I'm not sure why I have been so drawn into your story, except for the fact that my husband and I went through a pretty protracted dry spell. There were some specific reasons for it, but I can say we sure made up for it since. I'm a firm believer in wild monkey sex until yout manparts fail. I sure hope that you get to experience that!


Thank you. Maybe if C2 and I can have the same sort of breakthrough, we can have wild monkey sex too.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> And yet, time and time again, this is the advice I have been given. You have to be willing to go to the mat, to blow up the marriage if that is what it takes. And why?
> 
> Over sex.
> 
> ...


If you think that this is just about sex, that is where you are mistaken.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> YES
> 
> The trajectory is ALL that matters. If she's making a good faith effort - you continue to be your normal loving self.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Cooper - this is the basic concept we are sharing with you - but I feel I need to make an important clarification here. Forgive me for this trite saying - but it makes my point for me - "To thine own self be true" - and I would add - "show your wife thy true self". 

One of the many problems in your marriage, as I see it, is that you have lost touch with your true self and your real emotions. You have been in a self preservation mode with your wife for so long - that you re-act to her in a way to keep peace and harmony - and have learned to bury your true feelings and emotions. While you get frustrated, I am not sure you really allow yourself to feel the true affect of her behavior towards you. Instead, I think you have learned to hide away those feelings.

So right now - it is hard for you to be true to yourself and to show her the real you. But that is what you need to do in order for the rewards and consequences to really work on her. 

One of the reasons I believe MEM's wife responds to MEM's techniques and style - is because he is completely open and honest with her. His techniques and style flow naturally from the real MEM. He does not punish his wife - but instead he allows the consequences to flow from his true reactions and feelings. And he is honest with her about that. He does not put on a show for her - he does not punish her or get even with her. He simply allows her to see the real MEM - including the not happy with her MEM. There is a difference between consequences and punishments. Punishments are imposing or dishing out an artificial negative penalty in order to help teach a lesson. Consequences are a negative occurrence that are directly related, naturally or logically to a persons behavior. You should never punish your wife. However, it is OK to let her experience the consequences of her behavior. 

Once you get back in tune with the real you - and are willing to be open and honest with your wife about your true feelings and reactions to her behavior - then the consequence will flow naturally from you - in your own effective style and language. 

How does this relate as far as your question above? Basically - if your wife's behavior has upset you and you are not feeling close to her - and don't really want to do acts of service for her - then you should not do them, however if her behavior really is not bothering you - and you are feeling nice at the time - and want to do something nice for her just because you really want to do it - then do it. You are allowed to be nice even if she is being a jerk. How you choose to respond to her -should flow from your true feelings . But be honest and open with her about what you are feeling. Showing your true self and true emotions does not necessarily have to be done with words - often it can be done effectively with simple actions. 

So - bottom line - don't worry about making mistakes and getting it wrong. If what you are doing is flowing from your true feelings and you are showing her your honest response to her behaviors - both good and bad ones - then you are doing it right for you. 

I hope this makes sense and does not confuse you more!!


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Your SOLE focus needs to be on trying to find a way to make the OVERALL experience positive for her. If you succeed at that, a discussion of frequency won't be a bone on bone - awfully painful conversation where her ideal outcome is zero and yours is every other day.


I disagree with this. She is never going to look at sex in a positive way. PEOPLE, she has never even touched his peni* in their whole marriage.

Woman aren't going to think of sex positively unless they want to. If you think of it as a chore, it will be. If you think about how much you want to rock his socks off, you will. The woman has to want to enjoy it. I don't think C2 has that in her.


----------



## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'm 52 years old and in good health. I am active and work out each night.
> She's 55 and is morbidly obese. I encourage her to exercise with me, something simple, like walking, and though she will start, it only lasts a couple of weeks then she quits. All of her (minor) medical issues are directly related to her weight.
> 
> Two kids, one adult daughter in college, and a minor son, also in college (he's very gifted and is attending college and highschool at the same time)


Copper,

I am 55, not thin but not revolting either (as indicated by the number of times I am hit on by the guys). 

I was LD for a long time....VERY LD...as in No, none, nada ..I was sick but didn't know it. I was also tired and unhappy and didn't realize what a decent sex life meant to the hubs.

Fast forward...I had a stroke and ultimately open heart surgery.

After recovery, my LD went away and my drive into Overdrive so much that the poor hubs had to ask me to slow down. It didn't hurt that I started reading TAM either...maybe your wife needs an education that marriage (and the marriage bed) is not just about her...and that "fluffy girls" can have mind blowing sex just like their skinny sisters.

Just yesterday the hubs got morning sex and an evening "suck-start-the leaf-blower" BJ.

I started buying sexy underware and night clothing and wearing better make-up. You are sexy if you think you are, and if you think you are, you want sex. 

Oh, and sex burns calories too. 

Today, I am healthy and attend yoga and walk everyday. I look pretty darn hot for my age. It started one step at a time. 

And PS...up scale your own appearance too. Nothing hotter than a man other women find attractive....especially one as nice as you sound.


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Yes, if she isn't lying on her side, she does snore. And she does complain about being tired all the time. On the other hand, when I suggest going to be early (even if I am not joining her) she refuses to go.
> 
> I'm trying to remember if she was tested for apnea, but I can't recall one way or the other. I will say if she has it, it's not severe. There have been many a night that I have lain awake and her breathing is as regular as a metronome and she moves very little.
> 
> ...



You would probably remember is she had a sleep study. She would have been gone overnight for that.

Going to bed early won't solve the problem if she has sleep apnea, and even though you lay in bed next to her, you wouldn't be able to diagnose this.

Sleep apnea damages your heart and can also cause depression and lack of interest in sex. Her morbid obesity makes her a likely candidate for sleep apnea. 

I would let her know that you require more than 60 seconds of interaction with your cuddling. It's not fun to cuddle with someone who's sound asleep. What do you get from that?

I would definately make sure she gets this checked out. Unless you prefer she die from a heart attack.....


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> So - bottom line - don't worry about making mistakes and getting it wrong. If what you are doing is flowing from your true feelings and you are showing her your honest response to her behaviors - both good and bad ones - then you are doing it right for you.
> 
> I hope this makes sense and does not confuse you more!!


No. It's all good. Thank you for the advice.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Also - until you become more adept with this process - it is OK to try out others styles and suggested ways of doing things. Eventually your own style and way will evolve - and will be way more effective. Remember the key is that you are not punishing your wife - you helping her to see clearly the direct results of her behaviors. Something she had not clearly seen for a long time - so it may take her some time to figure out exactly what she is seeing. 

And don't forget - she will fight any and all changes. Including this one in you. So steel yourself - it could get rough for awhile. 

Also - I should probably use another word for rewards but can't think of one at the moment. But the same concept applies. What she sees should flow naturally from your true emotions and reactions - within reason of course.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> The analogue to your example is not just that the man is indifferent, that is, doesn't have that same need -- but actually has his own contradictory need -- for personal space, privacy, alone time, what have you.


I don't disagree with the idea that personal space, privacy and alone time, may be needs in their own right, because despite however much we might love our job, we do need a vacation now and then and despite however much we love our spouse and family we do need some time to ourselves now and then.

I think though that if we were to attempt to frame social neglect or exclusion of our spouse simply as a relational dialectic, then we are probably taking a legitimate concept to an untenable extreme given the fact that marriage by its very nature is a social arrangement to begin with.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

LonelyinLove said:


> Copper,
> 
> I am 55, not thin but not revolting either (as indicated by the number of times I am hit on by the guys).
> 
> ...


Thank you for your words of encouragement. I have even tried that sex burns calories argument myself. I can't think of a better way to try to loose weight. All that got me was one of her, "you're so funny!" smiles. 

I haven't introduced her to Talk About Marriage, but I have pointed out other reading material and books. Some she reads, but nothing ever seems to faze her. I pray it isn't going to take something like heart surgery to bring her around, but it may require something that drastic. 

And thank you for the compliment. It's nice to hear that not everyone thinks I'm a total chump. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> You would probably remember is she had a sleep study. She would have been gone overnight for that.


I have a vague recollection of this, but I may be remembering something else. That's why I said I wasn't sure. 





Workathome said:


> Going to bed early won't solve the problem if she has sleep apnea, and even though you lay in bed next to her, you wouldn't be able to diagnose this.
> 
> Sleep apnea damages your heart and can also cause depression and lack of interest in sex. Her morbid obesity makes her a likely candidate for sleep apnea.


I will ask her about this. She will remember if she had one. I know that she has had several visits to the doctor to have herself checked out for one thing or another over the years. 





Workathome said:


> I would let her know that you require more than 60 seconds of interaction with your cuddling. It's not fun to cuddle with someone who's sound asleep. What do you get from that?


I've tried. But you know how babies are, when they get sleepy? How hard it is to keep them awake? That's C2.

What I get is to hold her. For a long time, I didn't even have that. Things are not great now, but they are much better than they used to be, and I hope they will continue to improve.



Workathome said:


> I would definately make sure she gets this checked out. Unless you prefer she die from a heart attack.....


Now, now. Be nice. 


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AA,

Let's forst agree on what 'off the rails' means. 

My definition is either a clear trajectory over two weeks or three events in a row that contradict whatever they've agreed to do. 

-------
Copper - assuming concensus on the definition above - and accepting that AA is probably right - and I am wrong as to how to respond:

1. Confirm the common knowledge 
2. Get C2 to talk 

Copper: It feels like your pulling away from me - or pushing me away. 
(Soft and concerned tone here - because she's pulling away out of fear. Don't make it about you - focus is on her. She already knows she is hurting you - so in a way saying so here is going to make her MORE anxious, not less. She needs to perceive you as determined, but not impatient or anxious.)

Let her respond - if need be - gently press her to respond. Give her a lot of room - like a full minute if need be - to reply. Don't fidget. Don't be impatient. If she doesn't respond at all - in this case - silence truly does give assent - so proceed. 

Copper: Why are you pulling away? 

The art - of this conversation is mostly in the combination of:
- Economy of speech
- Pacing (anxious people cannot manage this glacial pace and soft tone - knowing you are calm will help soothe her)
- Persistence in the face of a non response shows this is important

She may gas light you. When M2 feels trapped she will often firmly deny that XYZ just happened. I've learned from painful experience to do THIS: 
Ok - well THIS (and she and I always know what THIS refers to) is important to me. 

And then I stop. Sometimes she will then relax and acknowledge / apologize. Not always. That's ok, because she GETS the point. And behaves accordingly. 

She ALSO may try to get you upset - angst loves company. She'll do that by minimizing: I don't know why you're being so needy / controlling, or sensitive or ....

My response to that is: I really hope it doesn't generally feel that way to you. (which means: I believe you are making this painful in the hope I will give up and go away.)

AFTER this conversation, give her a couple days and if she doesn't make an effort to get back on track, you start subtracting acts of service. 

Gently but firmly leading. 




always_alone said:


> Really? I'm a proponent of calling people out on this stuff. Maybe that makes me weak, I don't know. But the fact remains that it is very easy to rationalize these things privately to oneself, and assuming they know what you know can be a very dangerous thing.
> 
> And then following up, not by talking, but by punishing certainly does send a very strong message, as actions do speak much louder than words. But I think it also very likely that this can slip-slide into tit-for-tat mind-game territory.
> 
> ...


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I will ask her about this. She will remember if she had one. I know that she has had several visits to the doctor to have herself checked out for one thing or another over the years.
> 
> 
> I've tried. But you know how babies are, when they get sleepy?
> Copper


You should encourage her to get a yearly physical. At her weight, things can decline quickly. Plus, having a physician regularly remind her that her weight is deadly may help her dieting. A little diabetes might scare her too.....


Copper, I'm begging you, please stop making excuses for her. She is not a baby, but she is acting like one and you are letting her. Tell you you want to cuddle. Here's the definition of cuddle: 

verb (used with object), cuddled, cuddling.
1.
to hold close in an affectionate manner; hug tenderly; fondle.

You are cuddling her, she is not reciprocating. Why are you willing to accept this when you deserve so much more. Tell her what your expectations are. She is not at all tuned in to what you want or need, and will only know if you tell her. You all need to insist that the touching goes both ways every time!


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> You should encourage her to get a yearly physical. At her weight, things can decline quickly. Plus, having a physician regularly remind her that her weight is deadly may help her dieting. A little diabetes might scare her too.....


Yes, she does.


Copper


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Sadly it will probably take a heart attack or a stroke for her to start taking care of her health. Two things she may never fully recover from.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> The weight came during pregnancy. She put on the weight while bearing children and never lost it.


However unpalatable this may seem pregnancy is not the cause of your wife's weight gain. Overeating and insufficient exercise is the cause.

I've got 3 children from 2 marriages and both my wife and ex-wife gained very little weight and lost all of their pregnancy weight gain a few weeks after giving birth. I've also known plenty of other women including my sister who are also like my wife and ex-wife with respect to pregnancy weight gain.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Copp, I've d-icked around and played this game shortly after you started "seeking advice". I understand why you would consider certain advice and opinions of other men who are not in your shoes dubious, so I'd hoped some of the women would school you on your real problem. Instead, the advice seems to have been geared towards what's wrong with your wife and what you need to do to change her. I'm going to boil it down for you Dawg and you can ignore it (at your own peril) and continue on the path you're on where, I assure you, the victim (you) in this story is in for the same thing in the future. 

After a bit of research on your behalf, and to get straight to the nut cutting, I'm attaching this list I found of the five of the major things that turn women off. If you seriously review this list, it will school you on why you're in the position you're in. And to be frank, and maybe too frank for this site, you'd be in the same position with virtually any woman, albeit many would have already pulled up stakes and left you with your hat in your hand. 

Before you summarily reject this post, indulge me, read the list and tell me which ones don't apply to you.

5 things that turn a woman off
•	1) Being needy: Being needy turns everyone off and not just women. The more available something is the less desirable it becomes. In my article why being mysterious works i explained how confusing a person about your intentions can make him become much more attached to you. The less needy you appear to be the more attractive you will become to women

•	2) Being a nice guy: Research has shown that nice guys turn most women off. Women want a man who can make them excited, who teases them and challenges them in a good way. The more predictable a person is the more boring he becomes. Nice guys are so predictable and that's one of the main reasons they turn women off. Research has also shown that women get attracted to bad boys who are shiddy in a funny way, who are a bit dangerous and who are not by any means predictable.

•	3) Always Being available: If you are always available and you rarely have something else to do other than seeing your woman then she will start to think that you don't have a life. Being overly available is a great turn off for both men and women. People want to feel that they are with a busy and important person who gives them his precious time instead of someone who finds nothing else to do other than being with them (see also How can you attract someone you like)

•	4)Not taking the lead: Women like men who take the lead and who are in control. Even controlling women might in some cases want a man who takes the lead. If you made the woman feel that are not in control and that you are obeying all of her wishes instead of taking the lead then you will turn her off.

•	5)Not understanding her well: Each person has a different psychological makeup. This means that for each woman there will be certain specific traits that turn her off. In order to know more about them you need to collect more information about that specific woman. For example a certain woman might like overly romantic guys while another woman might find that guy a turn off. Understand the woman you are trying to attract in order to get the best results.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Those five suggestions share as a common premise, the idea that at some level, your wife does actually want sex. (She just doesn't want it with you though....)

When you're dealing with a true case of LD, you're dealing with a partner who would turn down the confident, unavailable intuitive controlling bad boy too.

Usually, (Not always) nothing short of a life changing event has any impact at all.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Copp, I've d-icked around and played this game shortly after you started "seeking advice". I understand why you would consider certain advice and opinions of other men who are not in your shoes dubious, so I'd hoped some of the women would school you on your real problem. Instead, the advice seems to have been geared towards what's wrong with your wife and what you need to do to change her. I'm going to boil it down for you Dawg and you can ignore it (at your own peril) and continue on the path you're on where, I assure you, the victim (you) in this story is in for the same thing in the future.
> 
> After a bit of research on your behalf, and to get straight to the nut cutting, I'm attaching this list I found of the five of the major things that turn women off. If you seriously review this list, it will school you on why you're in the position you're in. And to be frank, and maybe too frank for this site, you'd be in the same position with virtually any woman, albeit many would have already pulled up stakes and left you with your hat in your hand.
> 
> ...


This does not apply. She does her thing, I do mine. 






ThePheonix said:


> •	2) Being a nice guy: Research has shown that nice guys turn most women off. Women want a man who can make them excited, who teases them and challenges them in a good way. The more predictable a person is the more boring he becomes. Nice guys are so predictable and that's one of the main reasons they turn women off. Research has also shown that women get attracted to bad boys who are shiddy in a funny way, who are a bit dangerous and who are not by any means predictable.


This only partially applies. I can be nice, but I don't let her walk on me. I am predictable in some ways, but not others. I would be much more adventuresome in the bedroom for example, if EVERY SINGLE THING I suggest or try isn't immediately shot down. 





ThePheonix said:


> •	3) Always Being available: If you are always available and you rarely have something else to do other than seeing your woman then she will start to think that you don't have a life. Being overly available is a great turn off for both men and women. People want to feel that they are with a busy and important person who gives them his precious time instead of someone who finds nothing else to do other than being with them (see also How can you attract someone you like)


I make sure I am available for her, but not necessarily at the moment she asks. 





ThePheonix said:


> •	4)Not taking the lead: Women like men who take the lead and who are in control. Even controlling women might in some cases want a man who takes the lead. If you made the woman feel that are not in control and that you are obeying all of her wishes instead of taking the lead then you will turn her off.


If her wishes are reasonable, then I do them. If not, then I don't. Simple.





ThePheonix said:


> •	5)Not understanding her well: Each person has a different psychological makeup. This means that for each woman there will be certain specific traits that turn her off. In order to know more about them you need to collect more information about that specific woman. For example a certain woman might like overly romantic guys while another woman might find that guy a turn off. Understand the woman you are trying to attract in order to get the best results.


This certainly applies. I know men and women are the same species, but you couldn't prove it by myself and my wife. We are as different in so many ways as two people could be.

I am neat and tidy. She is not.
I am punctual. She is not. 
I don't really care what others think. That is always the first thing she thinks of. 
My word is my bond. Her promises are a little more fluid.
I attack tasks head on. I do the most unpleasant tasks first. She is a procrastinator and does the fun stuff first. 
I could go on, but that gives you an idea.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> We are as different in so many ways as two people could be.
> 
> I am neat and tidy. She is not.
> I am punctual. She is not.
> ...


Considering the above, why are you trying the impossible task of turning this lemon into lemonaide. You're smart enough to know it ain't happening. Yet you keep coming up with these circuitous arguments why this and that won't work for you or don't apply to you. You do realize, like to old proverb says, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ears"?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Considering the above, why are you trying the impossible task of turning this lemon into lemonaide. You're smart enough to know it ain't happening. Yet you keep coming up with these circuitous arguments why this and that won't work for you or don't apply to you. You do realize, like to old proverb says, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ears"?


But it wasn't always this way. In the beginning, we were very compatible. The list of differences are inconsequential in the long run. 

There is another old proverb. "Opposites attract."


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

He keeps trying because for whatever reason - he loves her and is not ready or willing to break up his family unit. He has said this several times.

At this point - although he desires change and is willing to listen and try some things that he thinks are reasonable and will not contribute to breaking up his family and marrigage, the bottom line that he is more comfortable staying in an uncomfortable marriage than with the ideal of leaving his uncomfrotable marriage. And there is nothing wrong with staying. It's his life and his marriage and his choices concerning them. So lets try to offer advice with these thoughts in mind. He is not leaving her - period! 

And for the record - please don't forget - we are only getting one side of the story.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> When you're dealing with a true case of LD, you're dealing with a partner who would turn down the confident, unavailable intuitive controlling bad boy too.


True. But you have to consider, (1) despite her weight problems, she may or may not be a true case LD. Just because a woman doesn't give it up to her husband doesn't mean she's LD. (2) a confident, unavailable intuitive controlling bad boy wouldn't put up with it, unless there were ulterior reasons.
In any case, and strictly from my own empirical knowledge of women, unless a guy is not doing the general things turn purportedly turn women off, he may never know if she's LD, or if its just him.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

mary35 said:


> And for the record - please don't forget - we are only getting one side of the story.


Absolutely. It seems she's pretty much been painted and accepted as the "bad guy" (overweight, sloppy, selfish, etc.)


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> he sounds like she suffers from sleep apnea. Most people who fall asleep as soon as their head hits the pillow are sleep deprived from sleep apnea.


I followed up with C2 on this. She had been tested years ago. She said nothing came of it. She couldn't remember if she didn't have apnea or it was so mild they decided to not treat her.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> When you're dealing with a true case of LD, you're dealing with a partner who would turn down the confident, unavailable intuitive controlling bad boy too.



the concept above seems to elude most people who have not experienced LTR with an LD...

Those who are LD for their partners only have a pretty good chance of getting it on the side... And you can tell.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I followed up with C2 on this. She had been tested years ago. She said nothing came of it. She couldn't remember if she didn't have apnea or it was so mild they decided to not treat her.
> 
> 
> Copper


She should be tested again. It's not normal to fall asleep in 60 seconds like that. She shouldn't be that tired if she's getting enough sleep.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> True. But you have to consider, (1) despite her weight problems, she may or may not be a true case LD. Just because a woman doesn't give it up to her husband doesn't mean she's LD. (2) a confident, unavailable intuitive controlling bad boy wouldn't put up with it, unless there were ulterior reasons.
> In any case, and strictly from my own empirical knowledge of women, unless a guy is not doing the general things turn purportedly turn women off, he may never know if she's LD, or if its just him.





ThePheonix said:


> Absolutely. It seems she's pretty much been painted and accepted as the "bad guy" (overweight, sloppy, selfish, etc.)


I am fully prepared to admit I'm fully at fault here. It could very well be that I just don't do it for her anymore. It also could be that I ruined the marriage by being intolerant or unwilling to compromise in the past. Both her and her mother have told me that I am too demanding. Our relocation, her becoming pregnant and the sudden fall off in intimacy all happened withing a couple of years of each other.

I also want to state for the record, that I have never claimed she was totally at fault and is NOT the bad guy. As Mary said, there are two sides to every argument.

Perhaps Wednesday something will turn up, some flaw that I am overlooking, and I can improve myself and perhaps make it up to her.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> She should be tested again. It's not normal to fall asleep in 60 seconds like that. She shouldn't be that tired if she's getting enough sleep.


I suggested same when I asked her about it. 

She has said in the past that she doesn't sleep well because she "hurts." I know she takes a lot of over the counter pain killers, a dose each night before she goes to sleep.

<EDIT>
Another reason to get the weight off... and she knows it.
</EDIT>


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I suggested same when I asked her about it.
> 
> She has said in the past that she doesn't sleep well because she "hurts." I know she takes a lot of over the counter pain killers, a dose each night before she goes to sleep.
> 
> ...


Over the counter pain relievers are very tough on the liver. Sleep apnea can make her sore all over too since it keeps her from sleeping well. If she was that sore all over, she would not be able to fall asleep in 60 seconds. Believe me, I speak from experience!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Workathome said:


> She should be tested again. It's not normal to fall asleep in 60 seconds like that. She shouldn't be that tired if she's getting enough sleep.



Wifey used to have a hard time falling asleep. Nowadays literally 60 seconds after lights out she's dozing. She gets 8+ hours a day, as she works from home. No apnea or anything like that, just amazing that as we grow older I'm fine with 6 hrs/day while she needs 8-9...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Over the counter pain relievers are very tough on the liver. Sleep apnea can make her sore all over too since it keeps her from sleeping well. If she was that sore all over, she would not be able to fall asleep in 60 seconds. Believe me, I speak from experience!


I know about the liver thing. We've talked about it. Another one of those conversations that went nowhere.

The hurting is her left hip and back. That is why she lays on her right side and faces away from me most of the time. 

That's a good point about the falling asleep so quickly. Which bring me back around to... why? What is going on that I don't understand. I have told her more than once to, "Please don't lie to me! Just tell me what's bothering you."

But I get nothing back except what I have reported here.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Wifey used to have a hard time falling asleep. Nowadays literally 60 seconds after lights out she's dozing. She gets 8+ hours a day, as she works from home. No apnea or anything like that, just amazing that as we grow older I'm fine with 6 hrs/day while she needs 8-9...


C2's mother is the same way. She can sit down in a chair and almost instantly go to sleep. Of course she is nearly 80, so that may have something to do with it.

My maternal grandfather was the same way. He would turn on the television, sit down in his chair, and be asleep before the first commercial.


Copper


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

john117 said:


> the concept above seems to elude most people who have not experienced LTR with an LD...


Yes. And I suspect many have not..


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> . . . . But *over the last couple of days, my hope is dimming*. I have nothing to offer as incentive to change short of leaving, and I'm just not sure I can do that.



You are probably somewhat depressed most of the time.

Amazing how even occasional great sex can change that.

But then, you'll never know that will you, Copper?


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I am fully prepared to admit I'm fully at fault here.


I don't think falling on your sword for all the perceived problems in your marriage is going to help mitigate your situation. Your willingness to take all the blame may demonstrate a willingness of self sacrifice and strong resolve, but at the end of the day, the problem is still lurking about.
Beside, when you said you were being double teamed by your wife and mother-in-law, you've got more than your hands full. I don't think I could stand up to that. I feel for you my man.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> I think this is the key difference. You WANT to do it for him. She does not want to do it for me.
> 
> Two of the three were nearly ruined financially. One's wife was a stay at home mom and refused to return to work. So this man continued to pour more and more money into that family so they didn't have to live in substandard, drug infested housing.
> 
> ...


Yes, divorce can be expensive. But, you can do a lot to alleviate that cost if you pick your battles and don't sweat the small stuff. A couple of these stories sound kinda fishy, though.

That first guy was being taken for a ride if that story is true. Where did she live - a crack house? Yes a life style might drop some but happens. If the living conditions are that bad, he need to stop enabling her. I'd be having my lawyer send letters and maybe do a custody evaluation (I actually had one done).

I know from seeing it happen - having a psychologist tell the court she is harming the children will tighten her up real quick.

The second guy who thought women were a scourge is a fool for getting married if he really feels that way.

The third guy is letting his wife manipulate him and has a bad custody arrangement too. Why is he not on a straight 50/50 plan like one week on - one week off? If he moved 80 miles away then he created his own problem. If his wife can't keep up with her end of the parenting, he needs to make an issue of it.

The only thing that is a must here is having less access to your child. That is why you must count the cost of leaving and why so many don't. But you also need to consider that if your wife is unhappy enough to avoid sex, she might leave anyways. The only way to have reasonable assurance of not having to go through this is if you serve her utterly and cheerfully regardless of how little you get back.

How long can you live a reality where your needs are always last?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I don't disagree with the idea that personal space, privacy and alone time, may be needs in their own right, because despite however much we might love our job, we do need a vacation now and then and despite however much we love our spouse and family we do need some time to ourselves now and then.
> 
> I think though that if we were to attempt to frame social neglect or exclusion of our spouse simply as a relational dialectic, then we are probably taking a legitimate concept to an untenable extreme given the fact that marriage by its very nature is a social arrangement to begin with.


My SO is very gregarious, he loves people, wants them around, invites them over. I....am not. Indeed, it drives me crazy when I can't get some peace and quiet and alone time.

We both have very different needs in this regard, and so we have to negotiate a compromise, what's reasonable and will make both of us happy. No fair of him just to say "I need social interaction, and it doesn't kill you to be nice to people. Why parties are fun!".

Just like it would not be fair for me to say, "No, I don't like people around all the time, so stop inviting them here, stop inflicting them on me."

That's all I'm saying.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> You are probably somewhat depressed most of the time.


I hope not! I don't want to be that guy that sulks all the time. I think most of the time I am upbeat and cheerful. Why fret over things that you can't change?


Copper


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> AA,
> She may gas light you. When M2 feels trapped she will often firmly deny that XYZ just happened. I've learned from painful experience to do THIS:
> Ok - well THIS (and she and I always know what THIS refers to) is important to me.
> 
> ...


MEM, I have to say that I find your dynamic with M2 quite confusing. It seems so .... deliberate. Calculating even. I can't quite imagine being so controlled in my communications (not saying that's a good thing).

That said, I do think it important to realize that when you are communicating potentially hurtful, accusatory things, you will get the person's back up. Defense mechanisms will kick in, and you will see all kinds of responses: denial, blameshifting, changing the subject or attempted distraction. Anything, really, that will take the focus off the uncomfortable conversation and ownership of responsibility, and divert it elsewhere.

Breaking through that wall definitely requires patience, calm, and focused determination.

And you need to be very clear in your mind about what you are trying to say, lest "reality" become twisted into something you don't even recognize -- but also without closing your mind to the other person.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> I don't think falling on your sword for all the perceived problems in your marriage is going to help mitigate your situation. Your willingness to take all the blame may demonstrate a willingness of self sacrifice and strong resolve, but at the end of the day, the problem is still lurking about.


True enough. But if I'M the one causing my problem, I can decide to fix that. That would be a much easier task than trying to correct someone else's behavior.





ThePheonix said:


> Beside, when you said you were being double teamed by your wife and mother-in-law, you've got more than your hands full. I don't think I could stand up to that. I feel for you my man.


The mother-in-law said that only the one time. And I used that rebuke to modify my behavior.

The list of things I like about C2 is long, but the list of things I dislike is short. 

1. Our intimacy problem. 
2. Her weight issue.

..

9. She doesn't always carry through with what she said she would do.
10. She seems incapable of putting anything away.

Those four items are really it. If I could correct 1 and maybe 2, I wouldn't even worry about numbers 9 and 10.

And to be honest, my responses to numbers 9 and 10 annoy her. 

This weekend is a perfect example. Laundry is my job, so I chucked a load into the washer then I went out to wash our cars. C2 said she would start another load when the first load finished. I didn't ask her to do this. She volunteered. 

As she said that, I knew it was a 50-50 chance she wouldn't actually do it. When I finished the cars, the wet laundry was still in the washer. Before, when mother-in-law made her comment, I would call her out. "Why do you tell me you are going to do something then not do it?" type of thing.

Now, I just moved the laundry into the dryer and started another load. But as always, C2 saw that as a silent reprimand and she complained. "I would have done that if you had just left it." Or something similar. It's the same old thing and it doesn't even bother me anymore. I can depend on her to do the important stuff, like pick up the kids, so the rest is not a big deal.

When she comes in, where she kicks her shoes off are where they stay until she wears them again. Where she sits her purse is where it stays. 

I have completely given this up. I used to pick up behind her because I like a neat and tidy environment, but it wasn't worth the pain it was causing me. So now, I just leave stuff where she puts it until it's in my way. 

For example, I gather up all her shoes, etc, and toss them in her closet before I vacuum. When the stuff piled on her side of the dresser gets so high that it will no longer STAY on her side and begins to crowd off my few items, or it is falling into the floor, I sweep it all into grocery sacks and place it in her closet. 

So yes, I know I annoy her and perhaps that is part of our problem. But I can only compromise so much. 


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

DTO said:


> Yes, divorce can be expensive. But, you can do a lot to alleviate that cost if you pick your battles and don't sweat the small stuff. A couple of these stories sound kinda fishy, though.
> 
> That first guy was being taken for a ride if that story is true. Where did she live - a crack house? Yes a life style might drop some but happens. If the living conditions are that bad, he need to stop enabling her. I'd be having my lawyer send letters and maybe do a custody evaluation (I actually had one done).


I don't know all the details. I just know that he was quite bitter that his kids were having to live in substandard housing because his ex, who had a masters degree and a teaching certificate, wouldn't return to work.





DTO said:


> I know from seeing it happen - having a psychologist tell the court she is harming the children will tighten her up real quick.
> 
> The second guy who thought women were a scourge is a fool for getting married if he really feels that way.


This guy would barely talk about it, but I assume he became this way AFTER the divorce.





DTO said:


> The third guy is letting his wife manipulate him and has a bad custody arrangement too. Why is he not on a straight 50/50 plan like one week on - one week off? If he moved 80 miles away then he created his own problem. If his wife can't keep up with her end of the parenting, he needs to make an issue of it.


I can't answer your question. I don't know if the arrangement is court ordered or what they agreed to. The wife is the one that moved away. He kept the house. The reason the trip to get his daughter is so far is he works in the opposite direction of her school. His house is almost equidistant between his daughter's school and his work. 





DTO said:


> The only thing that is a must here is having less access to your child. That is why you must count the cost of leaving and why so many don't. But you also need to consider that if your wife is unhappy enough to avoid sex, she might leave anyways. The only way to have reasonable assurance of not having to go through this is if you serve her utterly and cheerfully regardless of how little you get back.
> 
> How long can you live a reality where your needs are always last?


Forever, if you choose too. Happiness is a choice. I choose to be happy. I choose to not allow problems to weigh me down and make me miserable. I have bad days, just like everyone else, but I can usually drag myself out of my doldrums.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Who wants to play a game?

I tried to seduce C2 last night. I thought MEM's suggestion of finding out what was bothering her was a good idea, so I told her to stop me when she began to feel uncomfortable. 

Anyone want to guess she she slammed on the brakes?


Copper


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Who wants to play a game?
> 
> I tried to seduce C2 last night. I thought MEM's suggestion of finding out what was bothering her was a good idea, so I told her to stop me when she began to feel uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


My guess is as soon as you touched her.

I don't think she wants to participate in any physical act.

Am I right? Did you guys talk about it?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Who wants to play a game?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The moment you touched her.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The moment you touched her.


Not quite that bad, but close.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> My guess is as soon as you touched her.
> 
> I don't think she wants to participate in any physical act.
> 
> Am I right? Did you guys talk about it?


It wasn't quite that quick. We did discuss a little. The reason she wasn't interested was she was tired.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Who wants to play a game?
> 
> I tried to seduce C2 last night. I thought MEM's suggestion of finding out what was bothering her was a good idea, so I told her to stop me when she began to feel uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


Counseling!!!! Now!!!!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

It was actually when I kissed her. I don't mean a smooch, the type of kiss most give in public. She likes those. But once the kiss began to deepen a little, she turned away from me and asked me to stop.

She complained she was tired and wasn't in the mood. So we settled into our cuddle and she zonked right out.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Counseling!!!! Now!!!!


Tomorrow. I start to tomorrow.


Copper


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> It wasn't quite that quick. We did discuss a little. The reason she wasn't interested was she was tired.
> 
> 
> Copper


The excuse she gave is that she was tired. Everyone is usually tired at bedtime. People in healthy mutual relationships still enjoy moments of intimacy even when they are tired because it's important to the relationship. I am a 46 year old single (divorced) mom with two kids to care for and a pretty demanding job. I'm often tired. Sharing intimacy with my partner is important, and I participate (and even initiate sometimes) even when I'm dog tired. Just to give you perspective.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> And yet, time and time again, this is the advice I have been given. You have to be willing to go to the mat, to blow up the marriage if that is what it takes. And why?
> 
> Over sex.


Are you equivocating to be facetious? :scratchhead:


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> The excuse she gave is that she was tired. Everyone is usually tired at bedtime. People in healthy mutual relationships still enjoy moments of intimacy even when they are tired because it's important to the relationship. I am a 46 year old single (divorced) mom with two kids to care for and a pretty demanding job. I'm often tired. Sharing intimacy with my partner is important, and I participate (and even initiate sometimes) even when I'm dog tired. Just to give you perspective.


Oh, believe me, I know. Being tired is just a tired (pun intended) old excuse. The real reason was she didn't want to.

The day I am too tired to be intimate will be the day they bury me. 


Copper


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Why don't you suggest going to bed together at 8pm, in order to have time together as a couple before she is ready to just zonk out?

Her response will give you a lot of information, whether she is really in this with you or not.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Are you equivocating to be facetious? :scratchhead:


Not exactly, but it frustrates me that there seems to be a double standard. When you made your statement so many hundreds of posts ago, how she may see her lack of sex as need into itself, that was a very powerful and eye opening statement for me.

She is wrong for holding strongly to her beliefs and there is no excuse for it.

Oh, but by the way, you should hold strongly to your beliefs and there is no excuse for accepting less than what you want and her total capitulation.

There is some other dynamic at play with her and I am trying to not shatter her or the marriage. I was just trying to point that out, not be flippant about it.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Who wants to play a game?
> 
> I tried to seduce C2 last night. I thought MEM's suggestion of finding out what was bothering her was a good idea, so I told her to stop me when she began to feel uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


My guess is she slammed on the brakes when you introduced the idea. No touching. Nothing. (ETA: Not entirely right with this prediction, but close enough.)

Hopefully I'm wrong. I suspect I'm not.

I do have other concerns for you based on other posts. You may or may not recgonize that your entire relationship dynamic is based upon giving her what she wants or making her feel better. You like tidy, she could give a flip. Does she make effort to put things away? No. She puts them where she wants them.

She offers to do a chore, and she fails to execute (again.) Then you're made to be the bad guy when you go ahead and do the task she promised to do. She gets credit for "doing the work" and - in the process - gets to shame you for not trusting her to do the work.

Copper, I know these patterns are difficult to break. It literally will take years of steady effort to get the ship turned around. But you can't get the ship turned around unless you start putting your hand on the wheel. Start setting boundaries.

I think we can clearly diagnose you now as being afflicted with the "martyr complex." Even though you are in a bad relationship situation, you are unwilling to take the steps to enact meaningful change. Instead, you seek comfort in the "knowledge" that you are being treated badly and the acknowledgement of outsiders of the seemingly intractable relationship plight that you find yourself in. You are the noble do-gooder, keeping a failed relationship going through the sheer power of your will and nobleness.

I've been there. I've been the martyr in my relationship. Let me tell you - eventually even the succor of martyrdom is not enough to let you feel satisfied over the long haul. You can choose to set boundaries now or retreat and satiate yourself with the knowledge that you're the best martyr out there.

It's a dangerous game. The eventual fall is harsher and more damaging the longer you play the role of martyr. Your predicament is of your own making, not hers. Time for some serious introspection for why you allow this to happen. For me, I was able to see that I had a low level of self-esteem going into the relationship, making me susceptible to engaging in this type of unhealthy long-term behavior. I still fight these tendencies to this day. But I'm getting better at it - even without the help of individual counseling. You can, too.

Martyrdom in a marriage relationship is to be pitied, not celebrated.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Why don't you suggest going to bed together at 8pm, in order to have time together as a couple before she is ready to just zonk out?
> 
> Her response will give you a lot of information, whether she is really in this with you or not.


Tried it. She's not interested. Would you like the list of reasons or can we just agree that she doesn't want to? 


Copper


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I hope not! I don't want to be that guy that sulks all the time. I think most of the time I am upbeat and cheerful. *Why fret over things that you can't change?*
> 
> Copper


Stated on post #756


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Tomorrow. I start to tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Copper


Counseling for her! Her issues need professional help. They are entrenched deeply.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Does she know you are starting counseling tomorrow?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> My guess is she slammed on the brakes when you introduced the idea. No touching. Nothing.
> 
> Hopefully I'm wrong. I suspect I'm not.
> 
> I do have other concerns for you based on other posts. You may or may not recgonize that your entire relationship dynamic is based upon giving her what she wants or making her feel better. You like tidy, she could give a flip. Does she make effort to put things away? No. She puts them where she wants them.


You have to pick your battles. She is just like her mother in this regard and after a while, I realized it just wasn't worth fighting over. No big deal. I adjust.

I clean the house not because I'm a martyr, but because I want the house clean. I'm not doing it to please her, I'm doing it to please me. If I lived alone, I would still be cleaning the house and doing laundry, so I'm not sure how this is different.





MarriedTex said:


> She offers to do a chore, and she fails to execute (again.) Then you're made to be the bad guy when you go ahead and do the task she promised to do. She gets credit for "doing the work" and - in the process - gets to shame you for not trusting her to do the work.


She may TRY to shame me, but if she is trying, it's not working. I honestly don't care anymore if it upsets her. I don't try to shame her about it anymore and I think that has helped, but otherwise, I'm just doing my thing. 





MarriedTex said:


> Copper, I know these patterns are difficult to break. It literally will take years of steady effort to get the ship turned around. But you can't get the ship turned around unless you start putting your hand on the wheel. Start setting boundaries.
> 
> I think we can clearly diagnose you now as being afflicted with the "martyr complex." Even though you are in a bad relationship situation, you are unwilling to take the steps to enact meaningful change. Instead, you seek comfort in the "knowledge" that you are being treated badly and the acknowledgement of outsiders of the seemingly intractable relationship plight that you find yourself in. You are the noble do-gooder, keeping a failed relationship going through the sheer power of your will and nobleness.
> 
> ...


I reject the Martyr title because that implies persecution. I don't feel that way. If the above stuff actually bothered me, then perhaps you would be right. But I have come to peace with our differences. Some people are like me, some are like her.

Ann, the friend, is like C2, her husband is like me (according to Ann). They get along just fine in spite of it. The two items at the bottom of my list are no big issues as far as I'm concerned. The only reason I even mentioned them was for full disclosure.

If I can fix problem #1, and make some progress on #2, I couldn't care less about #9 & #10. And I am working on #1. I'm not sure I'm actually making progress, but at least, to use your term, "my hand is on the wheel."


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Counseling for her! Her issues need professional help. They are entrenched deeply.


I know. I have known this for a long time. That is why I have been trying to get her into counseling. We'll start with marriage, then maybe go from there.

So, to answer your original comment. I will wait until June because I told her I would. Another few months aren't going to make much difference to me, but by keeping my word, she can't throw that back at me.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Does she know you are starting counseling tomorrow?


No. I will just take what he or she says and if I agree with his or her suggestions, incorporate them into myself.


Copper


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There are lots of people for whom (? Grammar) proper intellectual discourse is taking the SAT and nothing more. For such people, rational arguments are secondary to emotional flooding.

When rational discussion fails other means of interaction have to be considered.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> There are lots of people for whom (? Grammar) proper intellectual discourse is taking the SAT and nothing more. For such people, rational arguments are secondary to emotional flooding.
> 
> When rational discussion fails other means of interaction have to be considered.


Other means... as in the emotional distancing and/or walking?


Copper


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> No. I will just take what he or she says and if I agree with his or her suggestions, incorporate them into myself.


Why not tell her? Might be useful for her to know just how deeply you are affected by all of this. And that you are still seeking a solution.

If you're always acting like everything is just fine, she will assume that everything is just fine.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> There are lots of people for whom (? Grammar) proper intellectual discourse is taking the SAT and nothing more. For such people, rational arguments are secondary to emotional flooding.
> 
> When rational discussion fails other means of interaction have to be considered.


This is not, nor has it ever been, about rational discourse.

Desire and connection are not about rationality, they are about desires and fears. You can't just rationalize your way out of a phobia any more than you can rationalize yourself into lust.

No matter how high your SAT scores.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Why not tell her? Might be useful for her to know just how deeply you are affected by all of this. And that you are still seeking a solution.
> 
> If you're always acting like everything is just fine, she will assume that everything is just fine.


I can see your point. I will consider it. 

The reason I thought I wouldn't is because I'm afraid it will reduce my leverage with her. I'm concerned that if I tell her, she will assume a more combative posture because someone is putting ideas in my my head, or that I am saying things just because someone else told me to. 

I think everyone has realized by now that I'm not easily swayed from what I believe to be true, and she should know that as well, but I don't want to give her any additional excuses. She comes up with enough of them on her own.


Copper


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> You have to pick your battles. She is just like her mother in this regard and after a while, I realized it just wasn't worth fighting over. No big deal. I adjust.
> I'm not sure I'm actually making progress, but at least,* to use your term, "my hand is on the wheel."
> *
> 
> Copper


This is the point where we disagree. You are floating along, allowing things to happen. "Hand on the wheel" implies that you are setting the course through the implementation of boundaries attached with consequences.

You like tidy. She plops stuff anywhere. Stuff is strewn around the house.

You want intimacy. She doesn't. She goes to sleep. If you push the issue, she runs away for a couple of days.

After dealing with this for more than a decade, you've finally set the most milquetoast of consequences with the "counseling in June." That is something to mark as progress, I guess. But proof is in the pudding. History suggests that she will find something wrong with the counseling - wrong time, wrong counselor, too expensive, whatever. She's going to torpedo it one way or another. When that happens, what consequence will she face? My guess is none. You're going to bend to her will, like you always do, to keep the peace. 

Then you'll be back here, looking for TAM re-assurance and recognition that you are not getting a fair deal in your relationship despite all of your efforts. We can pat you on the head and empathize. But the only person who can really fix this is you. The solution won't emerge until you make the tough call and make it clear that her most egregious behavior patterns are no longer acceptable to you. 

Just because you can respond to a negative situation with maturity does not automatically mean that you are handling it in the correct way. I applaud you for your composure in a trying and tiring relationship dynamic. 

Indeed you've taken "the high road" in your relationship for more than a decade. Kudos for that. My question is: "How's that working out for ya?"


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Other means... as in the emotional distancing and/or walking?



Or worse. Manipulation, etc. These work pretty well for most anything except intimacy. I can manipulate my way into getting what I want from people - most people do, but it's not called manipulation  - but not in intimacy. Not unless the other side is a lot different age wise or experience wise....

It is obvious there's something drastically different between deciding to buy a Harley and deciding to put out. Both bring plenty of pleasure but the decision process is not quite the same. Pity I'm not in college any more :rofl: it would make for some interesting research.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> It was actually when I kissed her. I don't mean a smooch, the type of kiss most give in public. She likes those. But once the kiss began to deepen a little, she turned away from me and asked me to stop.
> 
> She complained she was tired and wasn't in the mood. So we settled into our cuddle and she zonked right out.


I would suggest pushing harder. Not pressuring into sex, mind you, as you promised not to do that. But get her to talk to you. Not "why don't you want sex", but "does this feel bad to you?" "Is it uncomfortable?" "How does it make you feel?" 

Similarly, if your touching exercises end up with you touching and her snoring, you need to remind her to stay awake and be an active participant for at least some predetermined amount of time. (Say, for example, 15 minutes to start.)

Hold her to this promise, even if you don't bother with the ones about laundry.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The reason I thought I wouldn't is because I'm afraid it will reduce my leverage with her. I'm concerned that if I tell her, she will assume a more combative posture because someone is putting ideas in my my head, or that I am saying things just because someone else told me to.


A reasonable concern. I can fairly easily imagine a scenario wherein words like "you're just saying that because your therapist told you to" start flying around. 

I do wonder, though, if she fully realizes just how much this is affecting you -- and it strikes me that she should.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> This is not, nor has it ever been, about rational discourse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's both actually, for NormalPeople (tm) at least.

People rationalize lust all the time. I've spent enough time running marketing clinics to know that. Look at Apple 

The rational part of the decision process is simply overridden by the emotional part. But that does not make the rational part extinct.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> After dealing with this for more than a decade, you've finally set the most milquetoast of consequences with the "counseling in June." That is something to mark as progress, I guess. But proof is in the pudding. History suggests that she will find something wrong with the counseling - wrong time, wrong counselor, too expensive, whatever. She's going to torpedo it one way or another. When that happens, what consequence will she face? My guess is none. You're going to bend to her will, like you always do, to keep the peace.


To be honest, if the counseling fails, you're right. I'm not sure what I will do. I WILL stay until our youngest is out of school. That much I have decided. But after that? I don't know. Maybe by then the fire will have gone out and I won't even care anymore. Or maybe I will leave.

I don't believe I will be back here seeking reassurance. I came looking for help to deal with my resentment. What I found was that I had become apathetic. I didn't like that about myself. 

So I traded the resentment for determination. I am trying again. But this is my last ditch effort. I have been trying for years to find the key, and failed. If this fails, then I will agree with most here... walking will probably be my only escape. I just have to make the choice to do so. But at least I will feel I gave my all to the effort.


Copper


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> You have to pick your battles. She is just like her mother in this regard and after a while, I realized it just wasn't worth fighting over. No big deal. I adjust.
> 
> I clean the house not because I'm a martyr, but because I want the house clean. I'm not doing it to please her, I'm doing it to please me. If I lived alone, I would still be cleaning the house and doing laundry, so I'm not sure how this is different.
> 
> ...


Hi,

The point is that everything is one sided. You had to adjust, not her. She could have at least decided to participate as a partner and make an effort to later pick up her shoes from wherever she flung them. YOU adjusted, she didn't even try to meet you somewhere in the middle.

If you lived alone, you would not be cleaning up her stuff, too. Just yours. Therein lies the difference! That defense of yours is flawed (no offense intended).

If none of this stuff bothered you (I'm including intimacy in my label of "stuff"), there would not be 50 plus pages of discussion here.

You had to come to peace re your differences. She has not had to budge.

I have always had to work to fight being codependent and accepting hurtful, non mutual dynamics in relationships. I am still working on this. Lopsidedness in a relationship just didn't feel wrong enough to me. I didn't believe in the core of me that I deserved better, or that better even truly existed. I see this in you.

You do deserve more. More does exist. Your wife is not a good partner. You need to realize this in your heart or it will never change.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I would suggest pushing harder. Not pressuring into sex, mind you, as you promised not to do that. But get her to talk to you. Not "why don't you want sex", but "does this feel bad to you?" "Is it uncomfortable?" "How does it make you feel?"
> 
> Similarly, if your touching exercises end up with you touching and her snoring, you need to remind her to stay awake and be an active participant for at least some predetermined amount of time. (Say, for example, 15 minutes to start.)
> 
> Hold her to this promise, even if you don't bother with the ones about laundry.


We are having our night chat and doing the touching much earlier in the evening so she can't use the "I'm sleepy!" excuse on me. So far so good.

The problem with the touching is she won't actually let me touch her. It is winter after all, so long pants and long sleeve shirt don't leave much to touch. The face and hands, and that's about it. 

I feel like we are just going through the motions. Once the timer goes off, she's ready to call it quits and move on to some other activity... usually her stint on the cardio machine.

The chat are more productive. We are addressing some of her issues, but a lot of the time, I have a hard time finding the words. How do you convince someone that you still care for them, for example? 


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Why not tell her? Might be useful for her to know just how deeply you are affected by all of this. And that you are still seeking a solution.
> 
> If you're always acting like everything is just fine, she will assume that everything is just fine.


You absolutely should tell her! For these very reasons!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's both actually, for NormalPeople (tm) at least.
> 
> People rationalize lust all the time. I've spent enough time running marketing clinics to know that. Look at Apple
> 
> The rational part of the decision process is simply overridden by the emotional part. But that does not make the rational part extinct.


Yes, people *rationalize* all of the time. This is not necessarily very rational, though, IMHO. Rationalizations are typically in service to desire and fear, not ways of mitigating their effects. 

I will agree that some people may make some decisions with actual reasons. But more often than not, the root issue is what do I want to gain, and what do I want to avoid. Desire and fear.

Especially so for affairs of the heart.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I can see your point. I will consider it.
> 
> The reason I thought I wouldn't is because I'm afraid it will reduce my leverage with her. I'm concerned that if I tell her, she will assume a more combative posture because someone is putting ideas in my my head, or that I am saying things just because someone else told me to.
> 
> ...


No - it increases your leverage because she knows you are 100% serious about fixing it. Having someone else - especially a professional someone else put ideas in your head is a plus - even if she does not like it. So if she becomes more combative posture - so be it! Your counselor will help you with that too! But you should absolutely tell her you are going to counseling by yourself!! Again - this goes back to the be honest and open with her and show her the consequences of her behavior.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Hi,
> 
> The point is that everything is one sided. You had to adjust, not her. She could have at least decided to participate as a partner and make an effort to later pick up her shoes from wherever she flung them. YOU adjusted, she didn't even try to meet you somewhere in the middle.
> 
> ...


The intimacy "stuff" is what bothers me. That's what I'm trying to change. If I can fix that, the rest pales in comparison.

You are right in your point, that I am the one that adjusted in those two instances. But she has adjusted in other ways. 

For example, I tend to be an introvert, and she is most definitely an extrovert. She LOVES being around people. While I moved toward her in some ways in this regard, she has made a far more drastic movement toward me.

She would like to quit work and retire early. I told her, "Okay, but these are the things that are going to have to change if you do." She still wants to, but she gave up the idea because she didn't want to give up some of the perks that I would insist on when our income dropped. 

That is the point I keep making. Even taking into account our intimacy problem, I would peg our marriage at "okay" at the worst. There are so many people here that have it a LOT worse than I do. They may be having sex 2-3 times a week, but they are miserable. I don't want to give up a good thing until I'm SURE there is no hope of it ever improving.


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The problem with the touching is she won't actually let me touch her. It is winter after all, so long pants and long sleeve shirt don't leave much to touch. The face and hands, and that's about it.


Touch her over her clothes, then. Skin to skin is better, but not essential. And while touching, look her in the eyes. Communicate: Ask her how she's feeling. 

TBH, I don't know if you can convince someone that you care about them. Words don't help much. Actions can often speak loudly, but only if the person is listening. Repetition and consistency will help.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Touch her over her clothes, then. Skin to skin is better, but not essential. And while touching, look her in the eyes. Communicate: Ask her how she's feeling.


I do. But it seems like we are missing the point when there is fabric there.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I do. But it seems like we are missing the point when there is fabric there.
> 
> 
> Copper


No - you are missing the point! This is about creating total intimacy - not just sexual intimacy. Unfortunately you are starting at ground level with her. You can't move to the next level until she is comfortable with this level. 

I would suggest you get some tantra books and books on massages for ideals to use during these sessions. You would be surprised at how intimate a foot rub or hand massage can be - or how erotic it can feel when the mind is allowed to go there!! Clearly she is not going to let her mind go there at this point. But you are helping her learn to accept and give touch right now! That is what is needed.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I do wonder, though, if she fully realizes just how much this is affecting you -- and it strikes me that she should.


She can't possibly not know. I have been clear enough in the past. I guess that is part of my problem. I don't understand her.

If she were to come to me and say, "You doing this really bothers me," I would do my dead-level best to correct my flaw if I thought her complaint was valid.

So this means one of two things...

1) She doesn't care what I want. This doesn't seem right because in every other way, she is very attentive to my desires.

or

2) She doesn't think my request is reasonable. This is the one I'm going with, though for the life of I don't understand why.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I will agree that some people may make some decisions with actual reasons. But more often than not, the root issue is what do I want to gain, and what do I want to avoid. Desire and fear.
> 
> Especially so for affairs of the heart.



I could not have put it better myself. Humans are reward seeking and risk averse whether buying a home or getting lucky. 

Whether emotional or rational - they use the same decision process. Somehow LD is outside this framework or it seems so to me at least.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Not exactly, but it frustrates me that there seems to be a double standard. When you made your statement so many hundreds of posts ago, how she may see her lack of sex as need into itself, that was a very powerful and eye opening statement for me.


Yes, that is the LD mindset and although I think it's important to understand it, I also pointed out via the example of a man who is willing to let his wife emotionally wither away and starve simply because he doesn't have much of a need for conversation himself, that it is selfish to attempt define a need by the lack thereof. *In a relationship*, needs are defined by the person who is in need and genuinely suffering by their absence. 

This is your thread, not mine; but if it helps at all, I really have been in your shoes. My wife had a very healthy libido for about 9 years, but the instant she became pregnant with our first child, it disappeared and did not come back until the youngest was graduating from high school and she was entering menopause. 

For the interim of ~27 years, she had little to no interest in sex and honestly didn't seem to understand why I did. She's an intelligent woman and came up with every rationalization and excuse under the sun and then some. And I put up with it for much the same reasons you have stated on this thread, so I do understand where you're coming from.

Word like, "Divorce," "Ultimatum," etc. have been thrown around in this conversation and I agree that those things are very, very likely to be counterproductive. 

At the same time though, it cannot be denied that it is fairly unusual to see a young man whose girlfriend can't even spare him a dry peck on the cheek, much less have sex with him and it's equally unusual to see a young woman whose boyfriend has gained ninety pounds, spends all day playing video games and can't be troubled to do nice things for her anymore. The reason is probably obvious: Boyfriends and girlfriends are easily replaced. Marriage stabilizes a relationship in many ways, which is good, but the byproduct is often complacency, which is not so good. 

I'm not saying you should threaten to divorce, (I wouldn't) but I am saying that you entered into this thread with a melancholy tone of defeat in your, 'voice.' You seemed perfectly willing to accept the idea that your wife would not only automatically get sole custody of the minor child, but she would be granted a custody agreement that would allow her to relocate that child. You seemed perfectly willing to accept the idea that a divorce would utterly ruin you.

I honestly don't think that's helping. I would argue that an aura of defeat does affect you in subtle ways that you probably don't realize and which aggravates complacency in the relationship. A lot of the advice given to men here on TAM is a little coarse, but the ultimate purpose (IMHO) is to restore a little of the tension and mystery of the early stages of the relationship simply by a change in attitude.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I'm not saying you should threaten to divorce, (I wouldn't) but I am saying that you entered into this thread with a melancholy tone of defeat in your, 'voice.' You seemed perfectly willing to accept the idea that your wife would not only automatically get sole custody of the minor child, but she would be granted a custody agreement that would allow her to relocate that child. You seemed perfectly willing to accept the idea that a divorce would utterly ruin you.
> 
> I honestly don't think that's helping. I would argue that an aura of defeat does affect you in subtle ways that you probably don't realize and which aggravates complacency in the relationship. A lot of the advice given to men here on TAM is a little coarse, but the ultimate purpose (IMHO) is to restore a little of the tension and mystery of the early stages of the relationship simply by a change in attitude.


I concede the point. I HAD given up. Our last brouhaha had made me throw up my hands in utter defeat. I had retreated into my hobbies and was just trying to get through it. 

I still fear a divorce for all the reasons I listed. I don't want to risk my relationship with my youngest. I don't want to risk being taken to the cleaners financially. I personally only know three men that were divorced, and one or more of my fears very much came true for each of them. But I have made peace with myself over that. I won't walk until my youngest is out of school. That's settled.

Now I am trying to discover how to improve the marriage that I have. If no other reason than to make the next seven years a little more bearable. I am no longer resentful. I have a plan and I will stick with it.

If it works? Great! If it doesn't, it makes the next decisions a little easier because I feel that I can honestly say, "I did everything I could." 

Your statement and MEM pointing out something I was doing that was hindering my progress has given me a new way to attack the problem... a way I couldn't before the insights.

So many thanks to you and MEM for giving me a path forward.


Copper


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She can't possibly not know. I have been clear enough in the past.


Time for a little of my backstory. My wife is completely devoted to me. I'm the best thing that ever happened to her. She tells me this on a regular basis and I have no reason to doubt her. It's been a great marriage (even though I too do the laundry and she also can't remember to switch clothes from the washer to the dryer). 

She is generally self-centered, she's aware of this and does her best to control it. I am naturally content, rarely complain and self reliant. I generally prioritize my family's needs over my own. 

My happiness is very important to her. However, since I have so few needs, she's not in the habit of paying much attention to them. She has many needs and her happiness is very important to me. So I do many things for her. From the outside the relationship probably seems one sided (in her direction). We have a joke that our marriage works so well because we both have the same motivations; I care about her happiness and she also cares about her happiness.

Blowjobs are very important to me (of all things!). However, I'm not practiced in making my needs known. I have a hard time asking for things because that makes me feel vulnerable (I KNOW it shouldn't, but it does; childhood issues). I ask for very little. 

So, over the years, when I make many references to how much I appreciate blowjobs (and, from past experience, I know that she has no deep seated objections to performing them) and I continue to receive very few blowjobs, I would tell myself the same thing that you say here "she can't possibly not know how important this is to me". And that bothered me. Not so much the lack of blowjobs, but the fact that she could know how much I would enjoy them and not do anything about it (if, as she says, she loves me so much and cares so much about my happiness). Resentment was building, which was the only blemish on an otherwise perfect marriage.

Well, after about 20 years of marriage, things get to the point where over the course of a week this comes up several times. Each time I'm convinced that now she understands and, still, no blowjobs. Finally, I almost break down completely (something that I do NOT do, and about this of all things).

She sees the light; finally understands. I almost have to pull her off my d!ck these days. She is adamant that she never really understood how much it meant to me. I'm upset at myself. I'm pissed about how many bjs I missed over the years because I failed to prioritize my needs.

So, yes, it is possible that she actually doesn't know how you feel and how much this matters to you. Especially when the relationship has mostly been about what you can do for her. I'm not promising the same results, but you owe it to her to make absolutely sure that she understands how much this means to you and how seriously unhappy you are.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> I could not have put it better myself. Humans are reward seeking and risk averse whether buying a home or getting lucky.
> 
> Whether emotional or rational - they use the same decision process. Somehow LD is outside this framework or it seems so to me at least.


I disagree. LD are using exactly the same decision-making process. The desires and/or fears may differ from one LD situation to the next, but the principle is the same.

In Copper's case, for example, I'd say that the fear of sexual intimacy (or desire to avoid it) is the over-riding emotion. All of her rationalizations are aimed at this one end, and trying to convince her she is wrong with reasons will always be countered with other reasons that serve that overarching aims. 

For her to change, she doesn't need to *think* otherwise, she needs to *feel* otherwise, either by coming to value the pleasure for herself more or by deciding her husband's happiness is more important than her own on this particular matter (or some combination thereof). 

Only then will she understand how his reasons carry weight and deserve priority.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> So, yes, it is possible that she actually doesn't know how you feel and how much this matters to you. Especially when the relationship has mostly been about what you can do for her. I'm not promising the same results, but you owe it to her to make absolutely sure that she understands how much this means to you and how seriously unhappy you are.


I can't understand how she can't know, but I take your meaning. I can't remember if I have come right out and SAID, "No sex is making me nuts. If you cared for me at all, you would do this for me."

I've tried just about everything else. What have I got to lose?


Copper


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Copper, 

I'm going to try an analogy that may make this make a LOT more sense to you. The two most common "complaints" if you will that we hear from couples are: 

Wife - "He only wants me for my body!"
Husband - "She only wants me for my wallet!"

Usually, both people in the couple spend years if not decades trying to make their spouse change. SHE will try to make him non-sexual and HE will try to make her spend less. SHE feels rejected and spends more to feel better and HE feels rejected and desires sex more to feel better. Both withhold what the other needs and both shame the other for needing what they need. But in real life both needs are 100% legitimate. In real life, men like a wife who keeps herself looking pretty and is willing to be an active, interested partner in bed (a vast generalization but for the moment let's continue). Likewise in real life, women like a husband who earns enough to pay the bills and attain a certain lifestyle and who freely provides for her and for the family they have together (again, a huge generalization). 

So following this analogy, and applying it to YOUR life but in reverse, what do you think would happen in your marriage if you just suddenly stopped earning a paycheck because "you're tired" or "you hurt"? And I don't mean that you take a day off or some vacation to have a medical procedure done. I mean that you just stop giving her what she "needs"--financial support. What would happen if you saw how much being poor was hurting her and took the attitude "Well, it's too hard. I don't LIKE working for a living"? 

My guess would be that she would freak out, rage and scream, threaten, cry...whatever she could to get you back to taking care of her financially! (Which is basically what a man does when you cut him off sexually.) My guess would be that the longer it went on, the more resentful she'd feel until the resentment was overflowing (Which is basically what a man does when he is cut off sexually for an extended period of time). My guess would be that if you just cut her off of all money, and she was on her own to figure out how to pay for everything by herself--bye bye cushy lifestyle--that she would be gone relatively quickly. (Which is basically what a man does when he is completely cut off sexually.)

Now, Copper, this is just an analogy, but I use it to point out to you the inconsistency in how you and she are meeting each others needs. It is reasonable for you to want some regular sex with a willing and interested partner. It is equally reasonable for her to want some regular, dependable financial support for "the family" as a whole. But somehow when people think about it, they don't see the equality of both partners needing to meet the other partners needs. My hope in sharing this was to make sure your mind sees this accurately--that her cutting you off is on the same level as you just cutting off all money...period. 

Having said all that, I will encourage you that my own Dear Hubby and I are an amalgam of you and your wife, and I think we have a fantastic marriage. He is an introvert with a capital I--I am on the edge of introvert/extrovert. He is the messy one and I am the cleaner. I am the late one and he is punctual. He is as dependable as the sunrise and sunset--I am more spontaneous and emotional. But rather than being annoyed at our differences, they just are what they are. I have learned to appreciate quiet time, to relax and let the cleaning go (sometimes) and to be more punctual and dependable from him--and he has learned to make the effort to enjoy people, to occasionally pick up and put it away rather than leave it lay, to not stress out if we are a few minutes late, and to follow an impulse on the occasion. This is a good mix, and because of our differences we have both grown and improved as people! I think one major difference between our two marriages, though, is that in our marriage, we are BOTH involved and making effort. I make the effort to do things for him and meet his needs, and he makes the effort to do things for me and meet my needs. I am not positive that's happening in your marriage--I'll leave that to you. 

Finally, you came to this thread to essentially find out what you can do TO YOURSELF or WITH YOURSELF to cope with lack of sex. At this time you do not want to leave your marriage and really in many ways you like things as they are except for the lack of sex. Many of the posters have helped you see it's okay to expect sex in a marriage and that some of the excuses are really not acceptable. That's cool. I think overall it's been helpful for you to discover that a little "rocking the boat" is called for and necessary. I think it's also been helpful for you to hear from MEM that there are methods to guide your wife toward addressing herself and her weight and the lack of sex. 

BUT no one really addressed HOW YOU CAN COPE very much, did they? Oh there are always the cliche ways: workout, talk to her about it, go to a doctor, look for an addiction, go to a counselor. We've covered those ad infinitem. Of course there's also the BAD ideas: pornography, affairs, open marriage--and these are bad because the intimacy that should be in a marriage is shared with someone outside the marriage (hence morally/religiously "bad"). Generally those ideas cause hurt and destruction, so although they are a choice, probably not a WISE choice. 

So what do I recommend? Well here are a few ideas:

*Mental State*
I suspect you'll be continuously going through something like the five stages of grief again and again: Isolation, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. While acceptance is the best state to be in, like the acid in you stomach after not eating for few hours, you body will not let you stay in that mode. So every day will be different. Try to identify what state you are in and have some actions ready that work for you:

~ When in isolation phase try to talk with fiends and family who care for you and make you happy. 

~ On a angry day, and remember there will be many such days, go find a release--run, jump off a plane (with a para-shoot), bunge jump, masturbate, anything that get's your hormones flowing and your heart rate pounding.

~ In the bargaining mode think about love and affection (see below), and really notice and appreciate them on this day. Find a way to engage your pleasure sensors such as going to an art museum, taking a long soak in the hot tub, or going to a symphony--other options for pleasingly engaging your senses. 

~ Depression is the most dangerous of the phases when one tends to take risky steps and also the one that is difficult to come out of. Seek professional help if small things do not help. Staying around people that love you and helping others seems to do the trick and helps (not sure if it releases chemicals similar to sexual satisfaction in the brain). I personally suggest volunteering for the homeless or going to a nursing home while depressed because you quickly appreciate what you do have when you work with the less fortunate.

~ Acceptance is the zen mode, days when you don't expect any and still are satisfies with the way things are.

*Love/affection/sex*
Remember these are three very different things. You are not getting sex, what about the other two? if you are getting love and affection, really notice and appreciate and think on those two. 

*Nights *will be very long, find something to occupy your brain till you can tire yourself to sleep. To be honest, I suggest hand writing a personal journal or if you're not a writer, read technical manuals. 

*Kids*
Kids deserve a happy place to live, and they are the *_one_* thing that can get you through this. Live for them, their smiles will give you the strength to carry on.

*Accept a few things*
You will never be blissfully happy.
Your wife's sexual desire is out of your control.
You can commit to actions that will improve your life.
You can clarify what is truly meaningful to you and use that to change your life for the better.


Have you ever heard of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy? It maybe beneficial for you. Here's one reference: https://contextualscience.org/act and here's another: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/two-takes-depression/201102/acceptance-and-commitment-therapy


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> She can't possibly not know. I have been clear enough in the past. I guess that is part of my problem. I don't understand her.
> 
> If she were to come to me and say, "You doing this really bothers me," I would do my dead-level best to correct my flaw if I thought her complaint was valid.
> 
> ...


Do not underestimate people's ability to "not know" things that they have been told, time and time again. 

I expect that she does care very much what you want, but has filed your concerns in the "not reasonable" category, that is, your complaint is not valid. 

And it is not because she doesn't believe you that this bothers you, but she probably doesn't fully appreciate how much it bothers you. And she probably also thinks that it *shouldn't* bother you. And that you will get over it, because you always do, and so it's not that important to address. And that her needs are also important, what about that? And that it's only fair that she has autonomy over her own sex life -- she shouldn't be pressured into doing things she doesn't want to do. And that if you can't accept that about her, that you don't appreciate her, or understand her either. And so on. 

These are (mostly) reasonable enough beliefs, as long as you are willing to accept her founding assumption that sex is better avoided than pursued.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

mary35 said:


> I would suggest you get some tantra books and books on massages for ideals to use during these sessions. You would be surprised at how intimate a foot rub or hand massage can be - or how erotic it can feel when the mind is allowed to go there!! Clearly she is not going to let her mind go there at this point. But you are helping her learn to accept and give touch right now! That is what is needed.


This is a fantastic suggestion! Tantra is wonderful for touch, and pleasure, and very non-threatening in approach.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> *Mental State*
> I suspect you'll be continuously going through something like the five stages of grief again and again: Isolation, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. While acceptance is the best state to be in, like the acid in you stomach after not eating for few hours, you body will not let you stay in that mode. So every day will be different. Try to identify what state you are in and have some actions ready that work for you:
> 
> ~ When in isolation phase try to talk with fiends and family who care for you and make you happy.
> ...


All the above (including what I didn't quote) is good stuff. Acceptance is where I am most of the time. And she does try to meet my needs and do things for me in most other ways. It makes the lack of intimacy tolerable, if not enjoyable.





Affaircare said:


> *Love/affection/sex*
> Remember these are three very different things. You are not getting sex, what about the other two? if you are getting love and affection, really notice and appreciate and think on those two.


Yes/Yes/Not much. I know she loves me. She is also affectionate. We hold hands when we walk. We smooch and hug. We laugh. Once again, its these things that keep me going when what I'm missing weighs heavily.





Affaircare said:


> *Nights *will be very long, find something to occupy your brain till you can tire yourself to sleep. To be honest, I suggest hand writing a personal journal or if you're not a writer, read technical manuals.


I write. I took it up as a hobby to give me something to do when I was tinkering with cars, but now it is an income stream. It helps me cope.





Affaircare said:


> *Kids*
> Kids deserve a happy place to live, and they are the *_one_* thing that can get you through this. Live for them, their smiles will give you the strength to carry on.


Yes. Especially my son. He is the primary reason I can't leave. I purchased and restored the cars for him. We enjoy them together now and he will have something tangible from me after I am gone. 

He is the one that I worry over. His future is so bright it's like staring into the sun. I want to do nothing to jeopardize that, financially or emotionally. 




Affaircare said:


> *Accept a few things*
> You will never be blissfully happy.
> Your wife's sexual desire is out of your control.
> You can commit to actions that will improve your life.
> ...


Thank you. Great advice.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> And it is not because she doesn't believe you that this bothers you, but she probably doesn't fully appreciate how much it bothers you. And she probably also thinks that it *shouldn't* bother you. And that you will get over it, because you always do, and so it's not that important to address. And that her needs are also important, what about that? *And that it's only fair that she has autonomy over her own sex life -- she shouldn't be pressured into doing things she doesn't want to do. And that if you can't accept that about her, that you don't appreciate her, or understand her either.*


C2? Is that you? 

Okay. But if all the stuff above is true, and I STRONGLY suspect that is exactly how she looks at it, how do I break her out of that mindset? Especially those last two sentences. 


Copper


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
This was an interesting post, but I don't think the analogy applies. 

Usually when someone complains about their partner spending money in a relationship, it is because it is using up a limited resource - it is something that will have long term negative consequences for BOTH people - debt, delayed retirement, etc. 

OTOH, when you have sex, you loose nothing but the time spent doing it. Having sex with your partner regularly will not have long term impacts on your life. You will not "run out of sex" and have to do without in later years.

When one person gives another money, one looses, the other gains - its zero sum. When two people have sex they should both enjoy it. 



Affaircare said:


> Copper,
> 
> I'm going to try an analogy that may make this make a LOT more sense to you. The two most common "complaints" if you will that we hear from couples are:
> 
> ...


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I can't understand how she can't know, but I take your meaning. I can't remember if I have come right out and SAID, "No sex is making me nuts. If you cared for me at all, you would do this for me."
> 
> I've tried just about everything else. What have I got to lose?
> 
> ...


Yeah, what is she going to do? 

Cut off the sex? No change likely there.

Maybe she stops cleaning up after herself? No risk of loss there.

You and I know she is not going to react well, though, particularly if the focus is on sex. Making it all about intimacy just gives her the "you're just a sex maniac" defense.

While you do defend her, I think you could easily broaden the discussion to express a feeling that "this relationship has become a one-way street, and Copper is growing weary of it."

It's not about sex. It's about placing a priority on happiness / preferences of your husband. Yes, sex is part of that. But every time she leaves her shoes laying on the floor, that's just another one of the thousand little cuts. My guess is that you can probably lay out another dozen examples where her preferences supersede yours.

You almost have to take her to the beginning and re-program her. "This is what I expect a kind, loving wife to do to be in a relationship with me."

Your needs matter. But if you don't stand up for yourself and show that these needs matter to you, they will never matter to her.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> C2? Is that you?
> 
> Okay. But if all the stuff above is true, and I STRONGLY suspect that is exactly how she looks at it, how do I break her out of that mindset? Especially those last two sentences.


Ha. If I had the answer to that question, I would be a world-famous relationship-guru zillionaire, not some random internet troll. 

Some way, some how, you need to get her to doubt her grounding assumption that sex is undesirable.

In an earlier post, you mentioned "boiling her frog", and I think ultimately, this is what you will need to do to get there (assuming that you can get there). Be constant, consistent, resolute, unyielding, but also subtle, gentle, slow. 

Just keep gradually, imperceptably raising the heat.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Always alone, you really bring out the academician in me . Check out the article below:

http://www.indiana.edu/~kinres/chapters/Wiegel_Scepkowski_Barlow.pdf

Interesting reading material for a rainy day!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> My guess is that you can probably lay out another dozen examples where her preferences supersede yours.


I could do a hundred... but they would all be variations on the same thing. Really, the only things that annoy me are those items I listed.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oco,

I refer to this as 'bad' stability. BTW there are MANY stories of women who:
- pretty much shut down after their 'final' child
Until
- that final child leaves the house at which point they magically become sexual again

In some cases, I believe that the departure of that child creates a realization that the marriage is inherently less stable. Breaking up the family is very different in that scenario. 

In others, I believe that the emotional connection to H is suddenly more important - because he's the only one left in the house. This isn't: fear of divorce, instead it is the desire for emotional intimacy.

In many cases - it's both. 

I do believe the concept of marriage - as it is applied in the US - is inherently hostile to the higher drive person. 

Much as I love M2, I never bought into the idea of unconditional monogamy. And I was very - blunt about it:

You either LIKE doing this with me, or you don't. Given that it's a HUGE deal to me, if you like it, then you'll be agreeable to us doing it a lot. If you don't - we can stop emtirely and I'll outsource. Not going to leave - because I love you. 

Not going to be forced to be celibate - because I love me. 

-----------







ocotillo said:


> Yes, that is the LD mindset and although I think it's important to understand it, I also pointed out via the example of a man who is willing to let his wife emotionally wither away and starve simply because he doesn't have much of a need for conversation himself, that it is selfish to attempt define a need by the lack thereof. *In a relationship*, needs are defined by the person who is in need and genuinely suffering by their absence.
> 
> This is your thread, not mine; but if it helps at all, I really have been in your shoes. My wife had a very healthy libido for about 9 years, but the instant she became pregnant with our first child, it disappeared and did not come back until the youngest was graduating from high school and she was entering menopause.
> 
> ...


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> To be honest, if the counseling fails, you're right. I'm not sure what I will do. I WILL stay until our youngest is out of school. That much I have decided. But after that? I don't know. Maybe by then the fire will have gone out and I won't even care anymore. Or maybe I will leave.
> 
> I don't believe I will be back here seeking reassurance. I came looking for help to deal with my resentment. What I found was that I had become apathetic. I didn't like that about myself.
> 
> ...


Light bulb moment Coop

People treat us the way we teach them to

Tex your POV is spot on

55


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> We are having our night chat and doing the touching much earlier in the evening so she can't use the "I'm sleepy!" excuse on me. So far so good.
> 
> The problem with the touching is she won't actually let me touch her. It is winter after all, so long pants and long sleeve shirt don't leave much to touch. The face and hands, and that's about it.
> 
> ...


Coop you are trying to convince the wrong person for the wrong reasons!!

You need to convince her that you care for yourself.

55


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> Coop you are trying to convince the wrong person for the wrong reasons!!
> 
> You need to convince her that you care for yourself.
> 
> 55


I'm open for a suggestion.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You need to convince her of the need for balance and reciprocity. If the relationship is unbalanced, there's no fixing anything until that's fixed.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> You need to convince her of the need for balance and reciprocity. If the relationship is unbalanced, there's no fixing anything until that's fixed.


That much I got. It's the how that is tripping me up.


Copper


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> She can't possibly not know. I have been clear enough in the past. I guess that is part of my problem. I don't understand her.
> 
> If she were to come to me and say, "You doing this really bothers me," I would do my dead-level best to correct my flaw if I thought her complaint was valid.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the two. I am confident your wife does not think sex is an unreasonable request in the abstract. Rather, the situation is she sees her wants and needs at a premium - like you don't "bring" enough to justify pushing herself.

So, it's not exactly that she does not care about you. But, she does think her wants and needs are more important than yours. That does not mean it's true, or that you don't bring enough to the table. However, her actions scream that you simply are not worth it to her. Maybe she thinks the man is supposed to yield to the woman, or that she does plenty for you already. It doesn't matter, really.

As for why she does tons of other stuff for you, that happens because it resonates with her most likely. It's relatively easy for her to cook dinner for you (to use an example) if she likes home-cooked food and is handy around the kitchen.

You need to insist your needs (as YOU define them) matter as much as hers. I've been there done that and can guarantee she knows you are not happy but just does not bother to change her behavior, at least partially because she does not think she will face any consequences.

To me, this is a respect issue. Were I in your shoes, I would not squash down my desire to keep the peace. That does not mean you issue an ultimatum. Instead, you continue to initiate for sex regularly. She says yes and is present and cheerful during, you spend a nice couple of hours tending to each other (and she sees how much you devote to her during that time). If she refuses or gives you "starfish" sex, disengage and go have fun somewhere else. You don't go out of your way if she doesn't.

You aren't being nasty, but instead just putting yourself first (for once), just like she's doing. She can either take the hint and meet your needs or continue to reap what she sows. Yes it will be uncomfortable for her, but it should be. And she knows exactly what she needs to do to reap the benefits of your attention.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There are 3 well defined points on the continuum:

1. I'm gong to get my unmet need(s) met or end the marriage
2. In an attempt to convey how important this is, I'm going to do what I feel is fair (largely prioritizing me more at the expense of my partner) and will continue doing so even if my partner threatens / files for divorce (this is where I am - and always have been - for me this would mean an openly open marriage in your shoes)
3. I'm going to try to convey how unhappy I am to my partner without doing anything that might cause them (serious distress) to possibly leave me. 

I have yet to see someone accomplish (3). But (3) is where you are. 

You don't lack tactics, you lack resolve. 





CopperTop said:


> That much I got. It's the how that is tripping me up.
> 
> 
> Copper


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'm open for a suggestion.
> Copper


Copp, there been over 800 post and a plethora of advice given to you. If you can, please list four or five pieces of advice you received that you're going to try, starting this week or in the near future, and stay with. Or do you have any confidence that any advise you received will help and worth trying?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yet few people who are forthcoming with good advice have ever been in Copper's shoes.

That does not mean Coop should ignore the advice, but there's something to be said about dealing with someone whose value system is so out of sync with reality that normalcy is as common as unicorns.

I would pin some hope into some very serious and intensive IC. There's angles we may not have been privy to that a good therapist may want to explore. Hopefully IC can help clarify the current situation more than this here board.

But the collective is right - as long as Coop is concerned primarily about C2's feelings it's an uphill climb.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

There's a great book called Sensual Massage. Lots of pictures so you can get the technique down. Light a bunch of candles and set a relaxing atmosphere. 

You can study it and start very, very slowly, with clothes on (although it's best when off but.... Adapt!). It can just be seen as normal massage, but may slowly, gradually help her to relax and be comfortable with touch.

My other suggestion would be to just get in the habit of touching her... shoulder, arm, hold her hand, be proactive about it, make it part of communication. Do it at certain times repetitively (my SO and I hold hands while he drives and we both have become accustomed to reaching for the other's hand because it is ingrained). If she asks, just be honest that you want to feel her and you miss "this" (while you're cupping her hand gently and hold it to your chest). 

Her reaction will speak volumes, at which point, I hope you will have a better idea of how to proceed.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Voice from the peanut gallery here.

Copper, if your wife was a character in a book -- I would hate her guts. I would be turning each page hoping she would get hit by a bus. And then our wussy, but lovable anti-hero, Copper; would then meet a woman who drained him dry once a day.

Tells you that she will wipe you out financially if you initiate a divorce. As well as make access to your kids difficult. What a princess.

"Allows" you to get her off by fingering her; then falls asleep leaving you with blue balls. Lovely. But that's okay, you get this royal treatment twice a year. Quantity and quality ......NOT!

Although willing to drive 19 hours both ways to visit her side of the family (she had to stop for gas, I'm sure); she won't spend a weekend getaway with you; and has the audacity to expect you to fill her car up for her as one of your 'chores'. I know you said you don't usually put gas in her car; but guess what Cop, I don't believe you.


Then our hero refuses to fill-'er up; just once? She notices him becoming just a bit less willing to serve. Lo and behold a mechanical offer of transactional sex. Offer refused by Copper:smthumbup:.

And what follows is the "disappear into the night" stunt. How dramatic. That'll learn ya'. You better behave, Copper, or else.

Leaves her crap lying all over the place. *Don't* waste time trying to tell us that she doesn't realize that you prefer a neat place. Of course she realizes, and doesn't shiv a git. You pick up her purse and put it away for her; really??

Some good folks here are actually suggesting Tantric sex. Please. I'm all for Tantric sex, let's hear it for sexual pleasure. Do any of you guys really think for a nanosecond that any Tantric sex is going to happen between Copper and C2. Don't taunt the poor guy.

The unflattering phrase, "Large and in charge", has been going through my head the whole time I've been reading Copper's story.

Sorry Copper. And I hope I'm wrong about everything. I just don't think I am.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> Yet few people who are forthcoming with good advice have ever been in Copper's shoes.
> 
> That does not mean Coop should ignore the advice, but there's something to be said about dealing with someone whose value system is so out of sync with reality that normalcy is as common as unicorns.
> 
> ...


I concur. That said, CopperTop's value system also appears to be out of sync. This has gone on for so long he is as responsible for his marital woes as his wife is.

Many of us aren't in his shoes is because we don't think like him. Unfortunately he is unwilling to think differently and abandon values and approaches that don't work.



intheory said:


> ...Some good folks here are actually suggesting Tantric sex. Please. I'm all for Tantric sex, let's hear it for sexual pleasure. Do any of you guys really think for a nanosecond that any Tantric sex is going to happen between Copper and C2...


:iagree: Plus all the rest.

I don't think anything is really going to change for CopperTop at all.

CopperTop gets what he chooses!


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

john117 said:


> Yet few people who are forthcoming with good advice have ever been in Copper's shoes.


John, I expect more people giving advice good advice has walked in his shoes than one would think. I know I have. Nevertheless, I'm just curious what, if any advice, he plans to follow. After the arduous effort so many folks have made to help him, it won't kill him to give us some feedback on a couple or three things he's willing to seriously try.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

intheory said:


> Some good folks here are actually suggesting Tantric sex. Please. I'm all for Tantric sex, let's hear it for sexual pleasure. Do any of you guys really think for a nanosecond that any Tantric sex is going to happen between Copper and C2. Don't taunt the poor guy.


The suggestion wasn't to taunt, but I get what you're saying. Indeed I was thinking I should post a clarification about this. Tantra isn't just about sex, it's about meditation, and this is where I think it could help. The focus of it is very much beinging present to both touch and emotional intimacy, two areas where C2 definitely needs help.

I would suggest, though, that if Copper does follow up, that he not leap to searching tantric sex, but to tantric meditation exercises. Some of these will be low-level enough, along the lines of what he is doing now.

I have to say that I don't get quite the same read on C2s character as you. We all have these little incompatibilities in our relationships (different standards of cleanliness, different attitudes around chores, etc,) that we have to negotiate, and it doesn't make either side unreasonable or selfish. Of course, I could be way wrong on this, but what I see is deep anxiety around the one issue, an anxiety that she really doesn't want to address. And, probably at least to some degree, someone who is a bit spoiled by never really being called out, thinking he will let her continue on his route.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> John, I expect more people giving advice good advice has walked in his shoes than one would think. I know I have. Nevertheless, I'm just curious what, if any advice, he plans to follow. After the arduous effort so many folks have made to help him, it won't kill him to give us some feedback on a couple or three things he's willing to seriously try.


He already has. In particular he has realized that his tendency to soothe C2 is counter-productive, and that sometimes discomfort is productive to growth. This change alone could, given time, make quite a difference, as it will fundamentally alter their dynamic.

He is also trying touch and intimacy exercises. While these don't seem to be going all that well, they are going --and again, this problem has been years in the making, so will need time to un-make.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I do believe the concept of marriage - as it is applied in the US - is inherently hostile to the higher drive person.
> 
> Much as I love M2, I never bought into the idea of unconditional monogamy. And I was very - blunt about it:
> 
> ...


I was totally with you on that post, right up to this point. Personally, if it were me, I would have blown you off right then and there. Not because I don't want sex, not because I think that anyone should be able to force celibacy on another, but because I would assume from those words that you wouldn't be capable of dealing with aging or illness or anything that will inevitably make a woman less attractive or less sexual without running off and outsourcing.

If marriage is a hostile institution, then why bother?


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

always_alone said:


> He already has.


Maybe so, but I'd really would like a short post from him itemizing a few things. It won't take him but a few minutes. I know you mean well intervening on his behalf but like we say in court, it will have more impact if a person speaks for themselves. If I'm asking too much from him, please let me know.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Copp, there been over 800 post and a plethora of advice given to you. If you can, please list four or five pieces of advice you received that you're going to try, starting this week or in the near future, and stay with. Or do you have any confidence that any advise you received will help and worth trying?


Each night we are talking about it. That's a big step for us. I'm gently picking at her conceptions and trying to draw her in closer to me. The improvement over the past is she isn't so defensive about it now. Am I making progress? I don't know. Nothing obvious yet, but this is going to take a while and getting her to where I want her to be may take years. 

We are also doing touching exercises. Again, we are just starting and so long as I confine my touches to places I would be willing to touch her in public (hands, arms, face etc) things are fine. If I touch her other places, such as the inside of the thigh, she stiffens up, so I pull back a little. Hopefully, at some point, she will no longer do this and we can begin to touch in more intimate places. 

We are also cuddling at night. She wouldn't allow me to do this in the bad old days, so I am hopeful something is coming from this. She seems to like it when we do, but she isn't really attached to it. Last night she went to bed early and didn't tell me, so I missed the cuddling last night. That was a bit of a disappoint, but so long as she doesn't make a habit of it...

I also have a commitment that if things haven't improved by June (and I would be stunned if they have improved enough) we will seek professional help. If she carries through with her promise, this will be a major step forward.

Each of these, I think, is a step forward from where we were a few years ago.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Satya said:


> My other suggestion would be to just get in the habit of touching her... shoulder, arm, hold her hand, be proactive about it, make it part of communication. Do it at certain times repetitively (my SO and I hold hands while he drives and we both have become accustomed to reaching for the other's hand because it is ingrained). If she asks, just be honest that you want to feel her and you miss "this" (while you're cupping her hand gently and hold it to your chest).
> 
> Her reaction will speak volumes, at which point, I hope you will have a better idea of how to proceed.


We do this. We hold hands when we walk. She will let me hold her again. We are cuddling again. She isn't complaining I'm groping her when I touch her anymore. For years, when we were in such conflict, she wouldn't allow any of this.

In the past year, things have improved a LOT. I just want to keep the momentum going.


Copper


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Last night she went to bed early and didn't tell me, so I missed the cuddling last night. That was a bit of a disappoint, but so long as she doesn't make a habit of it...



This is her testing a boundary. She went to bed early and avoided the whole thing to see if she could get away with it. She needs a small but deliberate consequence. And she needs to know why.


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> We are also cuddling at night. She wouldn't allow me to do this in the bad old days, so I am hopeful something is coming from this. She seems to like it when we do, but she isn't really attached to it. Last night she went to bed early and didn't tell me, so I missed the cuddling last night. That was a bit of a disappoint, but so long as she doesn't make a habit of it...
> 
> Copper


Copper,

Have you made it clear to her that this cuddling needs to involve her touching you and that she can't fall asleep 60 seconds into it?

In my mind, that's even worse than not cuddling at all.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> If I touch her other places, such as the inside of the thigh, she stiffens up, so I pull back a little. Hopefully, at some point, she will no longer do this and we can begin to touch in more intimate places.


A couple of strategies to push forward on this:

(1) Instead of pulling back when she stiffens up, hold your hand there firmly. Don't move it, or push further, but keep it there, relaxed, warm, and reassuring until her muscles relax. Then pull back. My rationale here is to demonstrate to her that she can relax without fear that you will take that as a sign to aggressively keep pushing her comfort level.

(2) Talk to her about it:. "Does this make you uncomfortable? Why? What are you feeling?" Try at this point to just listen and understand what she is saying without drawing conclusions or countering with your own perspective. Save that for another time.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Voice from the peanut gallery here.
> 
> Copper, if your wife was a character in a book -- I would hate her guts. I would be turning each page hoping she would get hit by a bus. And then our wussy, but lovable anti-hero, Copper; would then meet a woman who drained him dry once a day.
> 
> ...


You have most points right or close enough. She does know I prefer a neat house, but it just isn't important to her. It's not as important to me as it was. It is one of those things I let go as not worth fighting over.

She isn't a bad person. She is a bit self centered, and more of a taker than a giver, I know this. I knew this before we were married. But if I were to have her as a friend, she would be a great friend. Caring, warm and helpful.

She has a lot of attributes that I enjoy. The sole sticking point in our relationship is our unequal sex drives. I'm not sure what changed, because it wasn't always this way.

It started with pregnancy. During our new parents class they made a point of telling all the new dads that things were going to be different. That sex would be the last thing on the moms mind. We had to understand that and be supportive. But for some reason, her sex drive never returned.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This is her testing a boundary. She went to bed early and avoided the whole thing to see if she could get away with it. She needs a small but deliberate consequence. And she needs to know why.


I will give it some thought, because you're right. That was against the rules. We are supposed to cuddle each night. 

I leave in the mornings before she wakes up, so even if I had seen your post before now, this evening would have been the earliest I could do something about it.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Copper,
> 
> Have you made it clear to her that this cuddling needs to involve her touching you and that she can't fall asleep 60 seconds into it?
> 
> In my mind, that's even worse than not cuddling at all.


No. Not yet. I didn't think that far ahead when I said we needed to do this. It's not worse than not cuddling at all, but it isn't what I want either. 

Another point to address. Maybe this evening, when I bring up the dodge last night.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> A couple of strategies to push forward on this:
> 
> (1) Instead of pulling back when she stiffens up, hold your hand there firmly. Don't move it, or push further, but keep it there, relaxed, warm, and reassuring until her muscles relax. Then pull back. My rationale here is to demonstrate to her that she can relax without fear that you will take that as a sign to aggressively keep pushing her comfort level.


Good idea. I will try this.





always_alone said:


> (2) Talk to her about it:. "Does this make you uncomfortable? Why? What are you feeling?" Try at this point to just listen and understand what she is saying without drawing conclusions or countering with your own perspective. Save that for another time.


Trying. I get back non-answers, such as... "Why does this bother you?"

"I don't know. It just does."


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

DTO said:


> Were I in your shoes, I would not squash down my desire to keep the peace. That does not mean you issue an ultimatum. Instead, you continue to initiate for sex regularly. She says yes and is present and cheerful during, you spend a nice couple of hours tending to each other (and she sees how much you devote to her during that time). If she refuses or gives you "starfish" sex, disengage and go have fun somewhere else. You don't go out of your way if she doesn't.


This is EXACTLY where we were a few years ago, before I just gave up. I would pursue, she would finally give in and would show complete and utter indifference, or occasionally, even hostility, and the cycle would start again. 

At least now, since I have started "chasing" her again, with the clear understanding that she is not to agree to join with me unless SHE wants too, we are not fighting about it anymore. I ask, she rejects, I drop it.


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Golden rule protects: Sickness - disability - aging

Indifference - lack of effort - etc. - that's a whole different situation. 

By the time this came up M2 had a pretty good sense of what I was like. The key for her was knowing:
- My strong preference was for us to make it work such that this never became an issue
- She trusted me not to do anything behind her back. 

That second bit was absolutely critical because I travelled extensively for business through much of the marriage. At one point - I was only home on weekends for a two year period. 

Honestly - if the social chemistry and provider stuff outside the bedroom hadn't been working very well - I believe M2 would have ended it. 

Just as there is a scenario where an HD spouse connects less often than they want and still loves their partner for other reasons, there is a scenario where the LD spouse has MORE sex than they really want - and still loves their partner for other reasons. 





always_alone said:


> I was totally with you on that post, right up to this point. Personally, if it were me, I would have blown you off right then and there. Not because I don't want sex, not because I think that anyone should be able to force celibacy on another, but because I would assume from those words that you wouldn't be capable of dealing with aging or illness or anything that will inevitably make a woman less attractive or less sexual without running off and outsourcing.
> 
> If marriage is a hostile institution, then why bother?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi Copper,

To put it in perspective...I am sure the woman at the parenting class who referenced lowered sex drive for new mothers certainty didn't mean for 15 years following the birth. Even if having a child were to mess up a woman's sex drive long term, a reasonable expectation would be that work would be done to fix the problem. Reasonable and expected. Like myself, I suspect you have a hard time innately knowing what a partner really should be doing for you, giving to you...and that it's not extraordinary, but it's what loving equal partners just do!

Just my opinion, but I do not think cuddling is not cuddling unless both people participate and hold EACH OTHER. It seems like the cuddling you put in place is like the sex you two were having....one way. Even with cuddling you do not get touched. That concerns me.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I just hung up with the counselor. I'm not sure what I think of this guy. He seems nice enough, but I'm not sure I buy into his conclusion. I did most of the talking, with him asking a few questions to keep me going. 

What HE said is that my problem is that I am not meeting C2's needs. That if I were she wouldn't be so cold and distant. He gave me the same standard spiel about helping around the house, taking care of myself, etc. 

I objected that I did all that already. He countered that I had probably caused her great harm over something, perhaps even unknowingly, and just needed to give her some space while I continued to show my support and love, and she would then get over her hurt. My insisting on sex when she clearly did not want to provide it was very counterproductive to solving the real problem.

I argued that I had given her a YEAR of that. That stumped him for a moment, and he quizzed me. 

I admitted that things had gotten better but not enough, and the real problem still existed. He seized on that that as proof that she just needs more time. 

He asked me to name something we talked about. I did. He asked me why C2 wanted to talk about it. I admitted that I didn't know. I didn't care. The fact that she wanted to talk about something was all the reason I needed. He said that statement, that I didn't know WHY she wanted to talk to me, was proof that I didn't care about her needs. If I didn't know why she wanted or needed something, how could I possibly provide it in the way she needs it? I wasn't providing the support she craved and needed. No wonder she wasn't close to me. 

The basic story from him is I need to be patient, understanding, and loving, and I was wasting my time trying to make my situation better until I determined and addressed the root cause or our problem. He said he would show me how in our next session because we were out of time.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Now I remember why I quit posting on this forum! 

I guess I should have clarified better. Tantric Sex is more than just sexual instruction. It is also about relationship building and connecting on deeper levels than just physical, and sexual healing. Many books on Tantric sex contain exercises that involve meditation, touching, lying next to each other while looking into each others eyes, sitting across from each other with your hands on each others hearts feeling heart beats, massages, etc.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Another suggestion CopperTop - for your discussions, don't just talk about your issues and problems. Use the opportunity to read things to her about sexual relationships and marital relationships and then discuss them. The link to the articles I suggested on "sex is a need" might be a great start. Several books have been suggest - you could use them. Don't just give it to her to read. Read it with her and then ask for her thoughts. and reactions. You should do a lot of listening in your discussions and not so much talking. She is not use to opening up so may use phrases like - I don't know, I have no thoughts, etc. When she does - just say something like "think about it a minute and tell me what comes to your mind". And then sit in silence while you wait. Silence is not a bad thing. She needs to understand that you expect her to talk, to express her thoughts - and not just put in the time with minimum effort.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

You and C2 are basically going back to stage one with your relationship. The relationship you had was built on faulty thinking patterns and bad habits - by both of you. You have to tear it all down and go back to the basics and rebuild a new one - step by step. That is what your touching and discussion sessions is all about. Re-learning!!!

Don't allow the old habits to creep back in to this new relationship - or into these sessions. You have no control over her - but you do you. You can't force her to do what you want, but you can clearly lay out your expectations - maybe even in writing - and you can call her on it when she is slacking or not doing her part. When you call her on it - you do it firmly, calmly, and matter of factly. And you make it perfectly clear that you are disappointed in her behavior and that you do not like it, either with words or actions. (consequences). Try to catch and praise anything she does right. Not over the top gushing praise. Simple praise - like - "thank you for sharing that with me. It helps me understand you better and feel closer to you" Then move on. 


To stay focused on your plan - I think it would be very helpful for you to identify in writing your long term goals - and then break them up into short term goals and actions. Identify the things you personally need to do to build this relationship. Keep the goals focused on your behavior - after all that is who you have control over. 

Some examples might be:

1. Get back in touch with my feelings and emotions - and don't hide them anymore.
2. Insist upon respect - stand my ground - don't back away
3. Identify my needs for this relationship that are non-negotiable and then share them with C2

etc.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Hi Copper,
> 
> To put it in perspective...I am sure the woman at the parenting class who referenced lowered sex drive for new mothers certainty didn't mean for 15 years following the birth. Even if having a child were to mess up a woman's sex drive long term, a reasonable expectation would be that work would be done to fix the problem. Reasonable and expected. Like myself, I suspect you have a hard time innately knowing what a partner really should be doing for you, giving to you...and that it's not extraordinary, but it's what loving equal partners just do!


I know. And her sex drive did come back after a two year drought where we had zero intimacy. But once a month or so was much reduced from the 2-3 times a week that it was. I assumed it was normal, that this was my new reality. 

After the second child? It was like she couldn't stand the thought of me touching her. I just don't understand what changed, and she either won't, or can't, tell me.





Livvie said:


> Just my opinion, but I do not think cuddling is not cuddling unless both people participate and hold EACH OTHER. It seems like the cuddling you put in place is like the sex you two were having....one way. Even with cuddling you do not get touched. That concerns me.


Our cuddle is after lights out. She lies against me, one leg propped on me, her head on my shoulder, with my arm around her back, the other on her arm as it lies on my chest. It's pretty nice actually. 

It would be nice if she could stay awake for longer than a minute or two, but at this point, I will take what I can get while I continue to try to improve my situation.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Now I remember why I quit posting on this forum!
> 
> I guess I should have clarified better. Tantric Sex is more than just sexual instruction. It is also about relationship building and connecting on deeper levels than just physical, and sexual healing. Many books on Tantric sex contain exercises that involve meditation, touching, lying next to each other while looking into each others eyes, sitting across from each other with your hands on each others hearts feeling heart beats, massages, etc.


I understood what you meant. I bought a copy and I have it on my tablet. I read a little last night. 


Copper


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd also add a few clarifying points:

As the HD spouse, I knew it was my job to make this 'work' for M2. So when she conveyed her turn ons/turn offs I made a sincere effort to apply that knowledge. 

One night, shortly after we got married we connected one night and a half hour later I went for round two. 

This was 20 something years ago - but I remember it. M2 said - I generally don't like going multiple rounds in one night, but we've been apart for a few days - and she started kissing me. 

And I just accepted that. 

And while it's true I drove our frequency for most of the marriage it's also true that M2's responsive desire was strong. 

Around year 10 - with 3 kids and me having had my vasectomy - M2 spontaneously went into two a day mode. Almost every morning and almost every evening. I did not push that, heck I didn't even suggest it. She did that for about a year. 

Clearly I got some of this wrong. Because despite being 100% consistent over the years - being supportive when she was sick - when sex became chronically painful she was afraid to tell me. 

At some level she didn't fully believe the 'bright line' distinction to me between being sick and being inconsiderate. 

It seems she does mostly believe it now, because it's been 3 years now without PIV and she's never seen me angry or tense about it. 



always_alone said:


> I was totally with you on that post, right up to this point. Personally, if it were me, I would have blown you off right then and there. Not because I don't want sex, not because I think that anyone should be able to force celibacy on another, but because I would assume from those words that you wouldn't be capable of dealing with aging or illness or anything that will inevitably make a woman less attractive or less sexual without running off and outsourcing.
> 
> If marriage is a hostile institution, then why bother?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I just hung up with the counselor. I'm not sure what I think of this guy. He seems nice enough, but I'm not sure I buy into his conclusion. I did most of the talking, with him asking a few questions to keep me going.
> 
> What HE said is that my problem is that I am not meeting C2's needs. That if I were she wouldn't be so cold and distant. He gave me the same standard spiel about helping around the house, taking care of myself, etc.
> 
> ...


I am not surprised at all with this interaction. One of the things that concerned me when you said that you had 3 - 30 min sessions is that this is meant to be short term therapy - to address on the surface issues. 

Typically with a good therapists - it takes several sessions for the therapists just to get to know you and identify the issues - find out what you have done so far and then begin the work.

What he has suggested is the standard answer for most on the surface marital problems. But I don't know - he may have something to offer you. If I were you - I would continue with the next 2 sessions. But also I would start researching for a sex therapist in your area. And I would call them and ask them how much experience and success have they has with marriages dealing with long time sexual rejection. 

A sex therapists is trained in the exact same way as all other counselors. However they also have additional training in the sexual aspect of human beings. Think of it like going to an Neurologists or other medical specialist. You need the extra training and specialization in the area that is your problem.
In your situation - you need a good sex therapist - not a general counselor. And you need one who has a lot of experience and success with your specific problem.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> If I were you - I would continue with the next 2 sessions. But also I would start researching for a sex therapist in your area. And I would call them and ask them how much experience and success have they has with marriages dealing with long time sexual rejection.


I will. I have nothing to loose, the three sessions are free, paid for by the company. 


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Also - keep in mind that you are starting over with C2 - so his advice to identify her needs and work on meeting them is good advice. Perhaps he has a point - and there is some deep rooted resentment that C2 has built up. Don't dismiss what he had to say - and carefully listen and consider what he continues to say. 

View this as re-learning correct habits and behaviors. I have found there is value in almost all info that counselors give. The trick is to figure out what the value is for you - and how can you make it work for your specific situation. Perhaps you are already doing what they suggest - but maybe you can do it better. 

Also - way to go on standing your ground with the counselor - telling him you have already done what he suggest. In the next sessions do the same - but then ask him if you did it wrong or if you need to so something different instead. 

Remember this one fact when dealing with any therapists - they are getting paid to help you. If you don't feel they are helping - say so and why. You have to communicate well with them in order for them to help you. You have to ask questions if you don't understand. You have to speak up when you feel you are not being heard and they have wrong. But also keeping a very open mind - as they may have heard you and do not have it wrong - you just haven't made the connection yet. Or they may have it wrong. So do not hesitate to speak up and express what you are thinking and what you are feeling in these sessions.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Each night we are talking about it. That's a big step for us. I'm gently picking at her conceptions and trying to draw her in closer to me. The improvement over the past is she isn't so defensive about it now. Am I making progress? I don't know. Nothing obvious yet, but this is going to take a while and getting her to where I want her to be may take years.
> 
> We are also doing touching exercises. Again, we are just starting and so long as I confine my touches to places I would be willing to touch her in public (hands, arms, face etc) things are fine. *If I touch her other places, such as the inside of the thigh, she stiffens up, so I pull back a little*. Hopefully, at some point, she will no longer do this and we can begin to touch in more intimate places.
> 
> ...



55


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I just hung up with the counselor. I'm not sure what I think of this guy. He seems nice enough, but I'm not sure I buy into his conclusion. I did most of the talking, with him asking a few questions to keep me going.
> 
> What HE said is that my problem is that I am not meeting C2's needs. That if I were she wouldn't be so cold and distant. He gave me the same standard spiel about helping around the house, taking care of myself, etc.
> 
> ...


Is more communication better than less? Well, obviously that is the case. You can't disagree with the counselor for saying this. And you can't dispute it when the weatherman says the sky is blue.

In one way, counselor may be on to something in terms of her "love languages." Who knows? She might be more into "gifts" than "acts of service." So your efforts literally fall on the equivalent of deaf ears. So, in some respects, there may be a glimmer of hope to follow.

That said, be wary of adopting the "patience" portion of the counselor's advice. For the past year, you've given her exactly what she wants: to not be pestered by sex. What did that get you in return? 

In short, should you make a greater effort to listen? Yes. Does that effort include rolling over and accepting her list as a verbatim action plan? Absolutely not. 

Question for the counselor: Why should Copper stop and listen to her when she has a long-term track record of being a "mega-taker" and "marginal giver" in this relationship?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening CopperTop
that is a BAD counselor. He is just following the standard play-book "wife doesn't want sex, husband must be doing something wrong". He will suggest that you act as her slave for a year to see if things get better - they won't. The bar will just be raised. 

SHE DOESN'T WANT SEX. 




CopperTop said:


> I just hung up with the counselor. I'm not sure what I think of this guy. He seems nice enough, but I'm not sure I buy into his conclusion. I did most of the talking, with him asking a few questions to keep me going.
> 
> What HE said is that my problem is that I am not meeting C2's needs. That if I were she wouldn't be so cold and distant. He gave me the same standard spiel about helping around the house, taking care of myself, etc.
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Just received a text from C2. She will be home late, but didn't give a specific time. There is a problem at work that she has to deal with.

Why do I think this is an excuse to deter our talk and touching session tonight?

I can't say much, though, considering how many times over the years I have done the same.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> Looks like a trust issue to me Coop ?


Could be. But I don't know why, or what I did, that would cause her to not trust me. I have never tried to force myself on her, for example.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> In one way, counselor may be on to something in terms of her "love languages." Who knows? She might be more into "gifts" than "acts of service." So your efforts literally fall on the equivalent of deaf ears. So, in some respects, there may be a glimmer of hope to follow.
> 
> ...
> 
> That said, be wary of adopting the "patience" portion of the counselor's advice. For the past year, you've given her exactly what she wants: to not be pestered by sex. What did that get you in return?


We took the test. 

I'm *Acts of Service* (Duh!)

She's *Words of Affirmation*. That's why I cheer her on when she is working on her diet, and tell her things are okay when they don't go quite right. 

What I got was a wife that would allow me to touch her again, one that wasn't surly all the time, and one that actually seemed to enjoy having me around again.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> What I got was a wife that would allow me to touch her again, one that wasn't surly all the time, and one that actually seemed to enjoy having me around again.
> 
> 
> Copper


.....and what you didn't get was a wife willing to put in the effort to address your love languages.

What I see in your response is that the thing that you got in return was a brokered, uneasy peace. 

She deemed you worthy of having around. How truly noble that is.....She returned to treating you with about the same level of appreciation that one would show to a favored family dog. A little rub of the tummy and a verbal "good boy," and you're good to go, I guess. Everyone determines what they can tolerate. Personally, I'd want more from the relationship with my spouse. 

If you are "acts of service," (and she knows this), what acts of service does she perform for you. What does she do on a regular basis and what does she do as a "special" act for you? 

Remember, cooking dinner for the family doesn't count unless she's going out of her way specifically to make your "favorite" dish or do something else to show she appreciates & values you. 

From where I sit, it looks like you've been beaten down so long that you've forgotten (or maybe never have known) how it is to be treated by a person who values you in their life. If the actions above truly leave you satisfied, you are settling for emotional scraps. You deserve better.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Coop, it all boils down to resolving to use nukular force  versus diplomacy. Diplomacy works once in a while especially if you have leverage. But otherwise it's hard to achieve results.

Now the counselor... Not very helpful likely because he knows you get 3 freebie sessions and that's it. A good outcome requires weeks or months. Maybe years. 

Do you have access to any other service for longer term IC?


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Just received a text from C2. She will be home late, but didn't give a specific time. There is a problem at work that she has to deal with.
> 
> Why do I think this is an excuse to deter our talk and touching session tonight?
> 
> ...


OK, this is a perfect opportunity to practice TAM's newest game show: "Boundaries and Consequences"

Couple questions:

- Have you set any consequences for what happens if she does not engage in the touching exercises regularly? If not, why not? My sense is that the only consequence is the spectre of marriage counseling in June.

If you have not expressed consequences for failure to follow through on her promises, it's unfair to lower the boom on her tonight. But it may be appropriate to say something along the lines of:

"I recognize that work issues pop up and that we all can get tired, but this is the second night in a row that we haven't done the touching exercises we've agreed to do. Actions speak louder than words and your actions are telling me that putting the effort in to work on this relationship is not a priority to you."

Then, shut up. Do not defend any more. Just say your peace and be on your merry way. If possible, do not be passive aggressively mean. I would even put gas in her car and be otherwise cheerful. You just get on the record that her rug-sweeping of emotional commitment to the relationship is no longer an acceptable option and that you expect better effort in the future.

In short, a "warning shot" is warranted - assuming no specific boundaries are in place. But not appropriate to go to DefCon5 on this alone.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Each of these, I think, is a step forward from where we were a few years ago.
> Copper


Thanks for the list Copp. I hope these things will work for you and good luck to ya my man. It been real.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> .....and what you didn't get was a wife willing to put in the effort to address your love languages.
> 
> What I see in your response is that the thing that you got in return was a brokered, uneasy peace.
> 
> ...


No, I wasn't satisfied. But the question was, what did I get in return. That's what I got. That, and the hope that our marriage is on the mend. Now I'm just trying to keep the improvements coming.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Coop, it all boils down to resolving to use nukular force  versus diplomacy. Diplomacy works once in a while especially if you have leverage. But otherwise it's hard to achieve results.
> 
> Now the counselor... Not very helpful likely because he knows you get 3 freebie sessions and that's it. A good outcome requires weeks or months. Maybe years.
> 
> Do you have access to any other service for longer term IC?


Sure. We can easily afford to pay for them so long as the rate isn't outrageous. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> In short, a "warning shot" is warranted - assuming no specific boundaries are in place. But not appropriate to go to DefCon5 on this alone.


This is exactly how I intend to approach it if she gets home at a reasonable hour. If not, tomorrow.


Copper


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I just hung up with the counselor.
> 
> What HE said is that *my problem is that I am not meeting C2's needs.* That if I were she wouldn't be so cold and distant. He gave me the same standard spiel about helping around the house, taking care of myself, etc.
> 
> ...


Copper,

This guy sounds like a "Shake 'n' Bake" type of counselor.

Are you doing this over the phone. Can't you go to someone's office. A good counselor will want to make eye contact with you and observe your body language. Being in their office will prevent either one of you getting distracted by what's going on around you while you are talking on the phone.

The things that he suggested, you have already been doing. To the ⁿth degree. You know that.

If you're going to get counseling; allow yourself the luxury of finding a good one. One who asks a lot of questions, and lets you talk for a long time - before even remotely coming up with "suggestions"

In the hands of a great therapist; YOU will be the one coming up with the answers.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> This guy sounds like a "Shake 'n' Bake" type of counselor.
> 
> ...


Yeah... it's one of those free benefit from work things. I have never been to counseling before, so I have/had no idea what to expect. 


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> ...
> She isn't a bad person. She is a bit self centered, and more of a taker than a giver, I know this. I knew this before we were married. But* if I were to have her as a friend, she would be a great friend*. Caring, warm and helpful.
> 
> She has a lot of attributes that I enjoy. The sole sticking point in our relationship is our unequal sex drives. I'm not sure what changed, because it wasn't always this way.
> ...


Broken record I know, but this IS all she is. A friend. She is not treating you as a wife, and certainly not as a "partner". 

I suggest you offer her just that. "Friend". She'll want more than that, of course, because normally friends don't pay each others bills. 

As someone else suggested, as lovingly as you try to paint the portrait of your wife, she's terrible. The things that you have so strongly attached in your mind to who she is is based in the past. 

Only semi-related. In a lot of CWI threads, the poster after the mourning phase almost always reports seeing their SO in a different light. Flaws appear that were never noticed, beauty from the "eye of the beholder" effect fades, personality issues that have always been there but glossed over arise. 

If CopperTop ever hits that phase... WOW what a shock to the system.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah... it's one of those free benefit from work things. I have never been to counseling before, so I have/had no idea what to expect.
> 
> Copper


Counseling expectations are hit and miss. Expect it to take some time. Expect them to provide you with some sort of therapy plan, or you're wasting your time (this might take a couple of sessions to get to). Expect to potentially go through a couple counselors before you find someone that works for you. 

Just like almost any other thing in life: you'll get out of it what you put into it. If this is some namby-pamby phone half-hour deal - it's not worth the money you paid for it (and I know - you DIDN'T pay for it). Expect them to possibly go into the "why" and how mommy and daddy made you this way (I've had several of those). 

Honestly in some ways coming to forums like these can be more helpful. But do give in-person counseling a shot.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

We had our talk tonight, even though she was late getting home and tried to beg off because she was tired. I don’t believe there will be any touching or cuddling in the foreseeable future.

Imagine, if you will, how bad our talk could have gone. I will say now, you are probably wrong. It went much worse than that. 

I led into our talk with the lack of a cuddle last night. I reminded her that we agreed to cuddle each and every night. Her response was that we would have cuddled had I been there. So I thought I would make light of it and I told her she would have to cuddle twice as long tonight to make up for it. To me, that’s like saying, “You didn't finish your ice cream last night, so tonight you get a double scoop.” Turns out that was the wrong thing to say. Because now, we were back on the “No matter what I do, you’re never satisfied!” thing. 

I will save you the spiraling, ever increasing, tide of argument, but I used this opening to make sure she understood how important intimacy was to me. I didn't mention frequency or anything else, only that it was an important part of marriage. In hindsight, that may not have been the wisest course. All that did was open up an entirely new can of worms. 

Let's just say that before it was all over, I found out that the past year has been the happiest of our marriage for her. She said it reminded her of how I used to be, when I cared about how she felt and I wasn't always guilt tripping her. 

I found out anyone that has sex more than once a week is nothing but a loose woman or man. The only reason we ever had sex as often as we did, even from the beginning when we were in our twenties, was because I made her feel guilty about it. In later years, the more I made her feel guilty, the less she wanted to have anything to do with me in that regard. 

I was invited to go out and hire a "streetwalker" and show the rest of world the type of guy I actually am, the type of guy that cares about what he wants more than he cares about his family or anything else, and that the only thing that matters to him is sex. 

I never got ugly, never got aggressive, but the more I defended myself, using some of the insights I gained here, the worse it got. It wasn't long before she began to get really nasty, must nastier than anything above. As she continued to lay into me, I could feel myself icing over. I tried not to let it get to me, but there was only so much I could swallow. Near the end I finally stopped trying to have a rational discussion, stopped defending myself, and just shut up. I wanted to cut off the fuel that feeding her vitriolic rampage. When I backed off, she finally ran down then stomped out. When I followed her a few seconds later, after I had a chance to get myself under control, she was heaping ice cream into a bowl. So there goes the diet as well, which is going to feed into her despair. 

I tried to apologize to her. Not for what I said, but for upsetting her, but that went absolutely nowhere. I might as well have been talking to the dog. Actually, the dog would have been better because he would have at least looked at me as I was talking to him. 

So, it appears there is a moratorium on the touching, talking and cuddles. The counseling sessions are off the table because she isn't going to "talk to some stranger about my deviant behavior" and until I give up my "unnatural obsession" I can just keep my hands to myself. 

So! I think I’m done here. Not a lot more to be said I don’t think. We have retreated to our neutral corners to give us some breathing room. I will dive back into my hobbies and maybe in a year or so, I can get us back to where we were a couple of days ago. Then I just have to grind it out for the next six years or so until my youngest is out of school.

I will probably still lurk, but before I go off-line, I want to thank each and every person that took the time to read and respond. Your insights and advice have not only been a great help, but your words of encouragement a great solace. 

Good luck and best wishes to all.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

(ETA: so wait.... if MORE than once a week is loose, why can't she do it more than a few times a year? THIS LADY IS CRAY-CRAY)
She just called the majority of sexually functioning adults "loose". The ex-navy part of me really wants to unload a torrent of profanity her way. I'll just leave it at:

WOW.

And all that (which I'm sure there was far worse), because you suggested "cuddling" for more time than allotted. And you basically just took it. You're the emotional incarnation of Rocky Balboa man. I don't mean that in a good way. I mean it in a Rocky at the beginning of Rocky 5, partially mentally unfit after taking one too many from Drago...

Again - you don't matter there. Not in the least. CUDDLING instigated this nastiness. Why would you even attempt to get the relationship "back" to anywhere besides where you were actually HAPPY? 

If you're going to sulk for 7 more years before actually doing anything about this situation, you could just detach now, do the "paper" later. Or hell, start up cooking some crazy rich meals. Might could speed up the end.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

One last thing:
I hope you speak about your relationship with your son. For one, because it's likely that SHE will. And for the love of all that is holy, do not let her instill the same traits in him.

For two, he should know the reasons you're sticking around - and the reasons your leaving. And let's be clear - you need to leave. This relationship is over - it's all about her and her wants and you aren't even a computational part of it besides your monetary deposits. But more importantly - he should know that he shouldn't ever have to deny who HE is in order to satisfy someone else. Which is any easy thing to learn from watching your situation. 

In other words: don't give another undeserving woman like your wife the gift of another you. Make sure your son never knows your pain.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Predictable I'm afraid. Now your choice is to give her the cold shoulder for the next few years, make her life a bit more "challenging", or pretend nothing has changed and do a surprise exit. 

I suggest you line up a competent therapist for yourself. That would be the best way to manage.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> (ETA: so wait.... if MORE than once a week is loose, why can't she do it more than a few times a year? THIS LADY IS CRAY-CRAY)
> She just called the majority of sexually functioning adults "loose". The ex-navy part of me really wants to unload a torrent of profanity her way. I'll just leave it at:
> 
> WOW.
> ...


Once a week when younger. Much less at our ages. None at all because I was bugging her.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

She has apologized, as she should.

I don't know what is going on with her. It is like any talk of intimacy just sends her over the edge. 

That's what she said, that I am making her crazy by constantly nagging on her about it.

No amount of sex is worth this.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

She's pushing back. That's all this is. She's made it amply clear that she will make any of your efforts nearly worthless.

Why don't you suggest an amicable end to the marriage, you'll stay friends in the capacity that you do now, and then you're free to go be "loose" and find actual happiness? Not this... whatever... that you have... sort of... now. 

She doesn't have to have any intimacy with you any more. Check
She keeps her stability. Check
You get to go have a normal relationship with someone. Check
You don't violate any of your principles. Check


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I'd also add a few clarifying points:
> <snip>
> Clearly I got some of this wrong. Because despite being 100% consistent over the years - being supportive when she was sick - when sex became chronically painful she was afraid to tell me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this, MEM. I can see you've walked a rough road, but have worked hard to stay true. Very heartening.

It also drives home how slippery communication can be. We can have the best of intent, think we are clear as crystal, and speak our authentic selves, and yet still the message can be interrupted by static.

That good communication is always an ongoing process including both action and word.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I have never tried to force myself on her, for example.
> 
> 
> Copper


Honestly, I and others saw this coming. Also, I didn't believe, no longer do as you keep posting, this is a true LD situation. Some of her accusations and actions have me drawing a completely different conclusion.


At this point, I'd be suggesting individual counseling before mutually seeing a marriage counselor.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

When she said the last year has been her best ever, I hope you told her that the last year with her has been your worst ever.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Honestly, I and others saw this coming. Also, I didn't believe, no longer do as you keep posting, this is a true LD situation. Some of her accusations and actions have me drawing a completely different conclusion.
> 
> 
> At this point, I'd be suggesting individual counseling before mutually seeing a marriage counselor.


CSA? If I had to guess, that would be at the top of my list. Not that she'll ever admit it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Frankly, I think a man without true, hard deal breakers is simply destined to live a bad life being walked over by whoever is with him. And I get the distinct impression that Copper is one of those guys. There's essentially nothing she could do that he would stop and say "that's a deal breaker, I'm out". I mean really, after all she's said and done....what would it take? Murdering someone?

Remember how she got mad and left the house and didn't return until the next day? Copper, you could learn something from your wife. She knows how to get your attention. If you have any sense you'll be out of the house in the next 10 minutes and on your way to stay at a motel....with your cell phone turned off. But I'll bet you're just hanging at home wondering what hit you. And your reaction is proving to her that she can do whatever she wants and you'll just roll with it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'll put it to you from another perspective. Let's fast forward ten or fifteen years and your relationship is in the Cold War stage. And she needs long term care. Or you do. Will you provide such care, or trust that she will?

For better or worse I'm the less healthy one in the relationship. She's one of those Jane Fonda types that will live forever on alfalfa sprouts and vodka. Do I trust my rear end into her hands? I'd be a Class 8 moron if I did.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> I'll put it to you from another perspective. Let's fast forward ten or fifteen years and your relationship is in the Cold War stage. And she needs long term care. Or you do. Will you provide such care, or trust that she will?
> 
> For better or worse I'm the less healthy one in the relationship. She's one of those Jane Fonda types that will live forever on alfalfa sprouts and vodka. Do I trust my rear end into her hands? I'd be a Class 8 moron if I did.



In other words, if someone proves to you over and over that they don't care about your needs, believe them. Fool me twice.....


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah... it's one of those free benefit from work things. I have never been to counseling before, so I have/had no idea what to expect.
> 
> Copper


Of course I don't know where you work, but typically those EAP arrangements only offer a few appointments for urgent needs. Now that the counselor has a sense of your situation, you need to get a list of local counselors you can see in person.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> She has apologized, as she should.
> 
> I don't know what is going on with her. It is like any talk of intimacy just sends her over the edge.
> 
> ...


That is bullsh!t, not a real apology.

A real apology is "I'm sorry for inflicting a terrible sex life on you and making what I want the end-all and be-all. I will do what it takes to do right by you".

What she said is "I'm sorry for exploding on you. It's so hard to stay calm when you're so unreasonable".

You need to just end this now. 

I am not quite sure whether she really believes that about sex, or whether it's a last ditch effort get you under her thumb again. In the end, it does not matter. If you retreat into your own life long enough, she will find something else to complain about and probably leave anyways.

Might as well get on it and salvage the rest of your life.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> CSA? If I had to guess, that would be at the top of my list. Not that she'll ever admit it.


Two things:
Religious sexual oppression.
Her or someone closes was sexually abused/raped.

The whole thread was driving me crazy because, even though he was choosing his words carefully, it screamed sexual aversion not Low Drive to me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> In other words, if someone proves to you over and over that they don't care about your needs, believe them. Fool me twice.....



You don't think about life at 70 if life from 25-50 was good. At 55 that opened my eyes far more than going frigid ever did...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> She has apologized, as she should.
> 
> I don't know what is going on with her. It is like any talk of intimacy just sends her over the edge.
> 
> ...


Copper, she is lashing out at you because of her own fear. I realize this doesn't make it better, but hopefully will help you keep your cool.

Right now you are challenging her, and she is in an uncomfortable place. This will make her volatile. Ultimately, she really should get some counseling... But you know that already.

If the only reason she has been having sex with you is guilt, then she has likely built up a ton of resentment around that. And has been nurturing that resentment for a good long time. This is only reinforced her negative attitudes and perceptions of sex.

Her behaviour is not excusable, but the conversations won't spiral if you don't let them. If she insists on acting 12, then let her throw her temper tantrums alone. But if you also react by lashing out, the conversations will never go anywhere good.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Frankly, I think a man without true, hard deal breakers is simply destined to live a bad life being walked over by whoever is with him. And I get the distinct impression that Copper is one of those guys. There's essentially nothing she could do that he would stop and say "that's a deal breaker, I'm out". I mean really, after all she's said and done....what would it take? Murdering someone?
> 
> Remember how she got mad and left the house and didn't return until the next day? Copper, you could learn something from your wife. She knows how to get your attention. If you have any sense you'll be out of the house in the next 10 minutes and on your way to stay at a motel....with your cell phone turned off. But I'll bet you're just hanging at home wondering what hit you. And your reaction is proving to her that she can do whatever she wants and you'll just roll with it.


:iagree:

Absolutely spot on!



CopperTop said:


> We had our talk tonight, even though she was late getting home and tried to beg off because she was tired. I don’t believe there will be any touching or cuddling in the foreseeable future.


And was probably always going to be thus.



CopperTop said:


> Imagine, if you will, how bad our talk could have gone. I will say now, you are probably wrong. It went much worse than that.


All that follows below is hardly a surprise.



CopperTop said:


> I led into our talk with the lack of a cuddle last night. I reminded her that we agreed to cuddle each and every night. Her response was that we would have cuddled had I been there. So I thought I would make light of it and I told her she would have to cuddle twice as long tonight to make up for it. To me, that’s like saying, “You didn't finish your ice cream last night, so tonight you get a double scoop.” Turns out that was the wrong thing to say. Because now, we were back on the “No matter what I do, you’re never satisfied!” thing.


Well you could have just told her that your marriage ought to be built upon reciprocal love and if you wish to remain married to me you will have to love reciprocally. We can work on this together if that is what you desire if you do not you're welcome to let the door hit you on the a** while you're on the way out.

Shine the light upon her, let her know that your relationship as it stands is unacceptable as it has been for a long time, establish unyielding boundaries and then act accordingly.



CopperTop said:


> I will save you the spiraling, ever increasing, tide of argument, but I used this opening to make sure she understood how important intimacy was to me. I didn't mention frequency or anything else, only that it was an important part of marriage. In hindsight, that may not have been the wisest course. All that did was open up an entirely new can of worms.


Did you really?

Were you unyielding in maintaining your boundaries or did you prostrate yourself and plea for her acquiescence?

Isn't it nobler to demonstrate moral courage rather than martyr oneself to a person who disrespects and loathes you?



CopperTop said:


> Let's just say that before it was all over, I found out that the past year has been the happiest of our marriage for her. She said it reminded her of how I used to be, when I cared about how she felt and I wasn't always guilt tripping her.


Of course it was, evidently your wife has made it pretty clear your touch makes her skin crawl.

Her guilt is up to her eyeballs and beyond, yet that doesn't stop her guilt tripping you.



CopperTop said:


> I found out anyone that has sex more than once a week is nothing but a loose woman or man. The only reason we ever had sex as often as we did, even from the beginning when we were in our twenties, was because I made her feel guilty about it. In later years, the more I made her feel guilty, the less she wanted to have anything to do with me in that regard.


Honestly, she was covered with mine tape from the very beginning of your relationship! So you were either naive and didn't know that you were walking into a minefield, or you foolishly thought your bayonet was the answer to anti-lifting boobytraps.

That said, your apparent propensity to be self effacing, non-confrontational and acquiescent to the point that you back off for a year or longer at a time plays a big role in the problems your marriage has.



CopperTop said:


> I was invited to go out and hire a "streetwalker" and show the rest of world the type of guy I actually am, the type of guy that cares about what he wants more than he cares about his family or anything else, and that the only thing that matters to him is sex.


She plays you like Paganini! If I were still in Psyops I'd consider her talents a valuable asset.

She doesn't believe a word of what she said as just quoted above, yet your core values and non-confrontational martyr tendencies afford her the opportunity to confront and hurt you while needling your morals.



CopperTop said:


> I never got ugly, never got aggressive, but the more I defended myself, using some of the insights I gained here, the worse it got. It wasn't long before she began to get really nasty, must nastier than anything above. As she continued to lay into me, I could feel myself icing over. I tried not to let it get to me, but there was only so much I could swallow. Near the end I finally stopped trying to have a rational discussion, stopped defending myself, and just shut up. I wanted to cut off the fuel that feeding her vitriolic rampage. When I backed off, she finally ran down then stomped out. When I followed her a few seconds later, after I had a chance to get myself under control, she was heaping ice cream into a bowl. So there goes the diet as well, which is going to feed into her despair.


So she is nasty to you, your touch makes her skin crawl, she doesn't respect you and she throws tantrums as well.

I cannot fathom why you claim to love this woman.

Personally I can't see any durability in loving someone that hates my guts. Evidently your mileage varies lest you have to get off your high horse and clear the trench of obstacles.

All she has to do is raise her voice, threaten, pout, spew forth vitriol, and you again appear to back down.

Her being nasty was step 1 of that scene intended to wear you down to silence and acquiescence (which worked as intended). Step 2 of that scene was to test whether you would come running as expected (again no trouble getting you to do that). While step 3 was to make it abundantly clear to you that you are responsible for her overeating (and are therefore the baddie) by upsetting her.

She'll happily hurt herself through overeating if it means you'll leave her alone sexually and play doormat, because for her she still won and whether you realise it or not she's been at war with you for a long time so winning matters. Just because you might prefer to pretend it isn't so, it doesn't mean it isn't.



CopperTop said:


> I tried to apologize to her. Not for what I said, but for upsetting her, but that went absolutely nowhere. I might as well have been talking to the dog. Actually, the dog would have been better because he would have at least looked at me as I was talking to him.


Apologize!!!!!!??????

She really is a maestro!



CopperTop said:


> So, it appears there is a moratorium on the touching, talking and cuddles. The counseling sessions are off the table because she isn't going to "talk to some stranger about my deviant behavior" and until I give up my "unnatural obsession" I can just keep my hands to myself.


I think marriage counselling is superfluous, quality individual counselling would be more beneficial.

If you fix yourself she will lose her power and your relationship will change.



CopperTop said:


> So! I think I’m done here. Not a lot more to be said I don’t think. We have retreated to our neutral corners to give us some breathing room. I will dive back into my hobbies and maybe in a year or so, I can get us back to where we were a couple of days ago. Then I just have to grind it out for the next six years or so until my youngest is out of school.


Grind it out!

Really!?

All you have ever done is rinse and repeat despite the insights that have been proffered as mentioned in the quote below. Yet here you are again saying you're going to rinse and repeat in a year or so. :scratchhead:



CopperTop said:


> I will probably still lurk, but before I go off-line, I want to thank each and every person that took the time to read and respond. Your insights and advice have not only been a great help, but your words of encouragement a great solace.


So I guess it's fair to say you mostly wanted commiseration and sympathy, for a circumstance of you and your wife's making. I congratulate you for having the physical courage to race cars. That said, I just wish you had the moral courage to stand up to your wife.



CopperTop said:


> Good luck and best wishes to all.


Likewise good luck.



CopperTop said:


> Copper


I wish you were more brass than copper.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Holy harsh, Personal!

Most people with such dysfunction around touch and sex have been seriously traumatized at one point or another. This may not justify their behaviour, but to paint it as calculated hatred, or loathing, or cruel "under the thumb" controlling is totally unfair. 

And dressing down Copper for having this compassion for his wife? I don't get it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AA,

And that's why I carefully described the sequence to follow starting with: why are you pushing me away? 

The one you snarkily called - overly controlled or something. 

Because Copper let's all these conversations turn into a bone on bone - I want more - she wants less. 

I dont need to be in the room to know what he does. 

'You said you would do this'. 

But she's already agitated. And now she melts down completely. 

His focus was on what he wanted - not on WHY she was avoiding. 







always_alone said:


> Copper, she is lashing out at you because of her own fear. I realize this doesn't make it better, but hopefully will help you keep your cool.
> 
> Right now you are challenging her, and she is in an uncomfortable place. This will make her volatile. Ultimately, she really should get some counseling... But you know that already.
> 
> ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Copper, she is lashing out at you because of her own fear. I realize this doesn't make it better, but hopefully will help you keep your cool.
> 
> Right now you are challenging her, and she is in an uncomfortable place. This will make her volatile. Ultimately, she really should get some counseling... But you know that already.
> 
> ...



:iagree: Could of should of... I know but for the purpose of learning perhaps this might have been better...

As soon as she starts her tirade - hold up your hand and say in a very calm quiet voice something to this effect - "Stop - Stop now - I have heard this all before. We had an agreement and I intend to hold you to it. When you have calmed down and are ready to continue to discuss how to keep our agreement on track, let me know. Until then we have nothing further to discuss."

Then you immediately leave the room. Don't allow her to get very much of a tirade out in front of you AND do not allow her to get anywhere near the stage where she storms off. And never follow her or check up on her later. If you need to - go for a car ride - anything to stay away from her - until she approaches you again calmly. Later when she is calm and after you get back to the discussion - you can ask her if she has issues she would like to schedule a discussion for. 

The discussion was on following through with the agreement and how you were going to get back on track and stay on track. To stand your ground - you should not allow any other subject to come up. How do you stop it - you interrupt her, remind her the topic at hand - and if she can't stay on that topic rationally and calmly - you end the discussion and walk away - far away if you have to - to keep your mouth shut. 

just my 2 cents for future reference - should you find it of any value. 

So where did you leave it with her when she apologized?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Holy harsh, Personal!
> 
> Most people with such dysfunction around touch and sex have been seriously traumatized at one point or another. This may not justify their behaviour, but to paint it as calculated hatred, or loathing, or cruel "under the thumb" controlling is totally unfair.
> 
> And dressing down Copper for having this compassion for his wife? I don't get it.


Many people who have been seriously traumatized at one point or another still touch those they love.

Exactly her behaviour is not justified and isn't at all reminiscent of love and compassion for her husband, his rolling over (facilitating) such behaviour is also not justified, they both lose from this and both feed the problem.

I don't believe my assessment is unfair.

CopperTop has tip toed around this for twenty years!!!!!! without resolution doing more of the same over and over!

Unfortunately all of his efforts to date haven't worked, in my experience doing that which does not works is a waste of time. If turning left all of the time drives you into the wall, one ought to try turning right.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

These dysfunctional cycles have to stop. You have the power to stop them Copper. Do not engage in any heated discussion - fight - whatever. Break this cycle and ONLY participate in calm discussions with her. No one wins - and the only thing that ever comes out of them is damage - to both sides.

And for heavens sake - stop defending yourself to her! 

Now pick up yourself up - and get back on the wagon. It's not time to quit yet! We already told you she would fight change. Man up - and continue forward. You have a plan - carry on!! 

When you feel you can have a rational discussion with her - reiterate to her your expectations and that you are NOT backing down. IF she refuses - you tell her you are moving forward with counseling then - with or without her. I gave you the speech for that already. And then you do just that - making sure she knows when each counseling session is - and that she is invited to each session. 

You can only work on you - you can only control you!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

DTO said:


> That is bullsh!t, not a real apology.
> 
> A real apology is "I'm sorry for inflicting a terrible sex life on you and making what I want the end-all and be-all. I will do what it takes to do right by you".
> 
> What she said is "I'm sorry for exploding on you. It's so hard to stay calm when you're so unreasonable".


And what she was really saying, underneath it all was, "I'm sorry that I'm being forced to say 'I'm sorry'".

Copper,

Where was your kid when this scene took place? You said you're gonna wait for him to finish college, before you think of leaving.

Do you want him to witness this type of meltdown on a regular basis?

Or are you just going to let him sense the misery and dissatisfaction that his dad lives with.

This is how staying married could be worse for your kid, than getting divorced.

If your wife truly thinks sex is disgusting; why did she get married? She's an educated person. She knows what a marital relationship entails.

So, she knows that marriage means sex. She knows that she thinks sex is disgusting. But she gets married; then only has sex to be compliant - while seething with resentment towards you for being a completely normal man who wants sex with his wife.

Please get into counseling for yourself. So you have an outlet; and a real person to talk to.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> AA,
> 
> And that's why I carefully described the sequence to follow starting with: why are you pushing me away?
> 
> The one you snarkily called - overly controlled or something.


MEM, I'm sorry if I came off as snarky in that post. It was not what I was intending. It's just that I really am puzzled by the dynamic you describe with your wife.

But if anything, your posts on this thread have been awesome, thoughtful, compassionate, and shown me why so many people here think so highly of you.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Personal said:


> Many people who have been seriously traumatized at one point or another still touch those they love.
> 
> Exactly her behaviour is not justified and isn't at all reminiscent of love and compassion for her husband, his rolling over (facilitating) such behaviour is also not justified, they both lose from this and both feed the problem.
> 
> I don't believe my assessment is unfair.



Your assessment as stated here is fair enough, but it's not really fair to compare. Some people with trauma end up acting out sexually, and do great damage to themselves this way. Is that so much preferable because it means some guy is getting laid?

Some people with trauma have sex because they are "supposed to" and feel guilty about it, and so spend their lives dreading and hating intimacy. But it doesn't matter because they are doing their wifely duty?

Yes, it's on her to seek counseling, to heal, to stop dodging and avoiding. Yes, this would be good for both her and him. And yes, he needs to learn how to cope better when she is melting down, and know that he can leave if it gets to be too much.

But all of the added insults and inferences about motives and character in your earlier post are unnecessary and counterproductive, IMHO.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

mary35 said:


> ...hold up your hand and say in a very calm quiet voice something to this effect - "Stop - Stop now - I have heard this all before. We had an agreement and I intend to hold you to it....


Unfortunately, a person unwilling to honor a formal arrangement like marriage, is going to experience few qualms about breaking a less formal agreement. 

--Or being habitually late. Or not being able to stick to a diet. Or not paying bills on time. Or not picking up after themselves. Or chronically procrastinating. Or remembering the material details of events differently than everyone else.

These people define reality far more subjectively than most of the rest of us do.

If you're still reading Copper, how close is this?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,

No harm no foul. I have an equally high opinion of you. 

I truly don't mean to be cryptic. We are all trying to help Copper.

I do believe he and C2 are highly incompatible - and always have been. 

I also believe that tenaciously trying to get someone to do something they dislike - without understanding why they dislike it - never ends well. 

And he's been unintentionally doing that for decades in a persistent but wholly counterproductive attempt to get her to understand and meet his needs. 









always_alone said:


> MEM, I'm sorry if I came off as snarky in that post. It was not what I was intending. It's just that I really am puzzled by the dynamic you describe with your wife.
> 
> But if anything, your posts on this thread have been awesome, thoughtful, compassionate, and shown me why so many people here think so highly of you.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's why I am a proponent of root cause analysis - which any competent IC therapist would help Copper unravel.

But IC could avalanche into the recognition of the San Andreas Fault that exists between them and make staying together even harder if he's so committed. 

Copper, up to two years ago I, too, thought I could save my marriage. Not quite so. I feel like crap that I was not able to get her to see the rational reality behind it all. But at the same time I realized the long term implications. Once that was done the path became clear.

If you insist on sticking it out make sure you have something tangible to show for it. In my case it's an awesome salary that helps cover our kids' awesome tuition bills. The cynic in me divides this cash by number of encounters in a year and wisely concludes it's a fair tradeoff. But that's me. If you can make a similar value proposition then all is good in one sense (it's not in general).


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Ocotillo... I'm still reading.

I will come back and address individual comments later. But let me say this.

My problem is I just don't know how to handle her. The overriding theme in this thread has been boundaries. I need to set boundaries and enforce them. Last night, that was what I was trying to do.

I never attacked her. I never accused her of anything. All I said was, "I believe intimacy is important in a marriage. That without that we are little more than roommates. I don't want a roommate, I wanted a wife." I don't remember my exact words, but those are close enough. I thought her dodging the cuddle last night was a perfect opening for this conversation.

But this time, when she started in on the "there is more to marriage than just sex," I stood my ground. After all, even MEM said I lacked resolve. So this time I resolved to not budge. This was what I believe and I was going to stick to it. 

The more I refused to budge, the more she attacked. I never said one nasty thing to her. I never raised my voice. All I did was each time she threw a barb at me, I would deflect it and try to show how my actions proved what she said wasn't true. The more I did that, the harder she bore in until I realized we were going no place and I just shut up.

So if backing off to protect her feelings is wrong, and standing my ground is wrong, what exactly am I supposed to do? Last night wasn't about what I WANT, it was about what I BELIEVE. I never, not once last night, said the problem is that she isn't putting out. I never said she was doing anything wrong. I never said the problem in this marriage is her. 

I stuck to two things, intimacy is important in a marriage and WE need to work on making our marriage better, and WE need to resolve to do the things WE say we are going to do to achieve that goal. I was very careful to use the word WE, and rarely YOU or I. 

Anyway, we have a tense truce in place. She is trying to illicit pity from me now. One of her favorite avoiding ploy's is anytime she really doesn't want to do something, she suddenly becomes ill. I have seen through this rouse for years and give it little regard. You would think she would stop playing that card, since it doesn't work. Or maybe she really is sick, but if she is, it is because she makes herself that way. 


Copper


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Copper, after your latest row with her, I think you two simply aren't compatible sexually and never will be unless she does some serious in-depth work to open up. Whether she was abused or has other issues would be for her to explore, in IC (as previously suggested). 

If little affection, sex, touching, holding, constituted the best year of her life, I'd believe her and do what I need to do to move on. She's trying to make you sound like a deviant for wanting a fulfilling sex life... that kind of manipulation makes me see red personally, but it's what she believes. I hope you took none of it to heart but simply see it as a value she holds of importance. You simply do not agree. 

You'll likely never see eye to eye. I seriously do not understand why you're going to willingly suffer 6 more years of this. Your kid(s) will see you suffering and the total lack of affection between you two. Is that what you want them to learn? That marriage = roommates that don't touch and simply tolerate each other? 

My thoughts: You have the truth now and it took the jaws of life to extract. She felt forced into sex during the honeymoon. Nice of her to tell you all those years ago. So release the pressure from her once and for all and leave her to her haagen-dazs.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Copper,

I think it's time to find another lawyer and have a chat about what would really happen if you divorce. It sounds like it's been a while since you spoke to the last lawyer, and now that your kids are much older, divorce may be more pleasing than living with someone who does not value you as a partner.

Her threats of taking the kids and moving away aren't going to happen. It sounds like your son is in a very specialized program that clearly meets his needs. As a Mom of gifted kids myself, I know how hard that is to find. In the end, your son would likely chose to live with you. Your daughter is in college, so no issue there.

I imagine that since your wife works, you would not be liable for much alimony. Even if some is awarded, she would have to pay you child support if your son chose to live with you, so that would even that out.

You mentioned that you would prefer to retire early and didn't want to give up half of your retirement savings. Unfortunately, there is no way around this, but I can imagine that there are men out there that will tell you that it would be worth it for you to work for a few more years in exchange for a woman who would at least touch your ****. Based on what you have said here, I am 100% positive that you could even find a woman who would be interested in giving you a BJ. I'm not a man, but having been on the giving end of a lot of these, I'm guessing that there are men out there who would work a few more years in order to get them regularly!

I was so saddened to read your post this morning, although I have to say that after she went to bed early and then worked late the following day, I could have predicted exactly what was going to happen.

The fact that you actually chased her down after this argument to apologize for "whatever" is a huge mistake. She has you buy the balls. Not that she would ever touch those, but she has still found a way to keep you in line.

I truly hope that your son does not end up marrying someone like your wife. If he sees you constantly acquiesce to her needs, he may think that is how marriage is supposed to be. Please be clear with him that a marriage should be a two way street.

I know you think you are doing your son a favor by sticking around, but I have a feeling that he would get so much more out of seeing you with someone who treats you as an equal partner. You seem to think that your marriage is perfect except for the sex issue, but if you look at the big picture, I hope that you are learning that this is far from the truth.

Please go talk to a lawyer and find out where you would stand today.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Copper,

One other thing. Why is it necessary to stay 6 more years? I imagine your gifted son will head off to college in no more than 3 years. Your daugheter should be done by that time. I don't believe in staying together for the kids, but why 6 years.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Two things:
> Religious sexual oppression.
> Her or someone closes was sexually abused/raped.
> 
> The whole thread was driving me crazy because, even though he was choosing his words carefully, it screamed sexual aversion not Low Drive to me.


Could not agree more Phill

It screams fear and mistrust

Clearly more to the story

55


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> My problem is I just don't know how to handle her. The overriding theme in this thread has been boundaries. I need to set boundaries and enforce them. Last night, that was what I was trying to do.
> 
> I never attacked her. I never accused her of anything. All I said was, "I believe intimacy is important in a marriage. That without that we are little more than roommates. I don't want a roommate, I wanted a wife." I don't remember my exact words, but those are close enough. I thought her dodging the cuddle last night was a perfect opening for this conversation.
> 
> ...


Copper, if you are not lashing out, not reacting with anger and defensiveness, then you are doing well. There is nothing wrong with standing your ground. It is, in fact, what most people here are suggesting you do.

But you were also right just to shut up, and not keep defending yourself. Arguing with someone, or defending yourself against someone, who is simply spewing venomous bile is always a losing proposition. 

Upshot is, stand your ground, state your case, but don't get dragged into screaming matches about it. Let her rant and rage and get that out of her system on her own, and then when she's ready to talk like a normal human being, you can be there for her.

Again, what she is doing is expressing her deep discomfort, hurt, anxiety, fear, all of which she is currently blaming you for because you have suddenly changed the rules of the game. She wasn't expecting it, it will take her time to adjust to those new rules, and she is probably angry at you for making her do it.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OK, so now we know what it looks like when you upset the apple cart, when you disrupt your uneasy brokered peace.

For the first time, you are really making progress. You are stating your boundaries and your expectations. (The only step backward was apologizing at the end. But, that's OK, you're new at the "standing up for yourself bit.")

Believe it or not, your actions are upending her tidy little world. She had Copper in place, not demanding any of that pesky intimacy while still providing for the family and doing all the little honey-dos that make her life so wonderful. Well, isn't that grand for her.

The extremism of her response demonstrates that she's getting the message. She gets it, but she does not like it. As you get stronger, the volatility of her responses must get stronger in return - in order to put you in your place. In years past, she could sulk a little bit and "PRESTO": Copper's back in line like a good little boy. 

Indeed, you've never challenged her before, truly. She doesn't know how to argue. She doesn't know how to compromise. She knows one way, and that's to get her way. You've enabled that because you always allowed her to get her way. 

So she's pulling out the big guns now. Shaming you for your sexuality is top of the list. You have to attack the premise of every point when she's making it - otherwise it becomes relationship "fact." You are not a pervert for wanting to be intimate with your wife. A basic Google search would back you up that. Next time she tries to shame you ask : "Why is it basically assumed that I'm the one that outside the norm with my desires?"

At the end of the day, though, if she responds in such ballistic fashion to a disagreement over "cuddling," the idea of moving her mindset anywhere close to satisfying your needs for the relationship is literally far-fetched.

Your only hope is to get her in counseling, where you both can get your issues on the table in a controlled environment. She has taken that off the table, giving you one of two options:

1. live six years in misery, modeling a terrible relationship for your son and likely dooming him to repeat your failures.

2. set a boundary of marriage counseling. No marriage counseling means you stop acting like a husband. Separate beds, separate rooms, no vacations with her, no more "coaching" her, no more getting her gas tank filled, whatever. Start clearly building your life. Not in a quiet, "I'm going to slink over to my corner way" but in a "I'm going to go out and start living my life, my way" kind of way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

And you are every bit as conflicted as she is. You launch this thread with - can't cope. Followed much later by:

If I even knew one guy whose divorce wasn't a disaster I'd be open to it. Followed by three examples of divorce disasters that don't apply to you:
- Severe financial trauma 
- Loss of access to children

Now you say you MUST wait until your son graduate from college. You've blown by the victim chair in favor of the martyrs throne. 

There was a reason I said that you only call C2 out if she breaks bad: 3 times in a row OR there is a clear trend over two weeks. 

Because there is a huge difference between someone acting in good faith and prioritizing your requests 
AND
Putting your spouse on a clear cut quota

The message below would be a bust with most women if the activity in question is somethng they don't really like:

We missed last night, so we have to double down tonight to catch up to plan. 

As to why she dislikes affection - don't know. Could be she plain doesn't like it. Or she associates it with you initiating sex. 

THAT's why you wait for the trend and then ask WHY are you avoiding affection - when that's clearly what she is doing. 

You don't discuss how far below quota she is - or that she committed to it. You ask WHY she doesn't like it. 

I do agree - you are not good at managing her. 




CopperTop said:


> Ocotillo... I'm still reading.
> 
> I will come back and address individual comments later. But let me say this.
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> And you are every bit as conflicted as she is. You launch this thread with - can't cope. Followed much later by:
> 
> ...


Not really. All the above still worries me. The reason I want to wait for him to graduate is because I worry about doing anything at this point that would cause him to veer off the trajectory he is on. He is on course to do GREAT things, to be wildly successful in everything he does. I don't want to risk that... not by leaving, not by failing to have the resources to provide him with every opportunity that comes his way. 

Since I started this thread, he has been invited to study in England for a year. I don't know what that is going to cost, but I imagine it is going to be expensive. Now we can afford to send him, and our family life is stable enough that he has no reason to worry about anything. 

So many kids that get into trouble are from broken homes. I don't want to take the chance with him that something like C2 and I going our separate ways would cause him to not continue putting out his best efforts. 





MEM11363 said:


> There was a reason I said that you only call C2 out if she breaks bad: 3 times in a row OR there is a clear trend over two weeks.
> 
> Because there is a huge difference between someone acting in good faith and prioritizing your requests
> AND
> ...


Okay. Maybe that wasn't the smartest thing I have ever done. But I said it in a light and playful manner. She is so volatile that all it takes is one misstep and *BOOM!* I wasn't trying to put her on a quota. I was trying to make it playful. I didn't expect her to react the way she did.

But what REALLY set her off was my instance that intimacy was important in the marriage. That is when it really started going downhill. And in that case, I gave NO numbers, quota's, no nothing.





MEM11363 said:


> As to why she dislikes affection - don't know. Could be she plain doesn't like it. Or she associates it with you initiating sex.
> 
> THAT's why you wait for the trend and then ask WHY are you avoiding affection - when that's clearly what she is doing.
> 
> ...


I've TRIED to ask that question. "Why does this bother you?" But having her tell me, "It just does," moves me no farther along than I was.

I can't manage her because I have no idea which way she is going to go the next time. The only thing I know for sure is when I push on the intimacy issue, she gets very defensive. She doesn't want to talk about. She doesn't want to hear about it. She doesn't want to think about it. 

I don't know how to break through that. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Unfortunately, a person unwilling to honor a formal arrangement like marriage, is going to experience few qualms about breaking a less formal agreement.
> 
> --Or being habitually late. Or not being able to stick to a diet. Or not paying bills on time. Or not picking up after themselves. Or chronically procrastinating. Or remembering the material details of events differently than everyone else.
> 
> ...


Close enough that you could be living with her instead of me. 

I asked her once, some time back, in a moment of frustration after she was late meeting me somewhere, "Is your time more important than mine?"

Her answer. "Yes."

So now I make allowances for her.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cooper...

The volatile part.... Could she be dealing with a personality disorder? Say, NPD or BPD or what not?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Her behaviour is not excusable, but the conversations won't spiral if you don't let them. If she insists on acting 12, then let her throw her temper tantrums alone. But if you also react by lashing out, the conversations will never go anywhere good.


I didn't lash out. I never raised my voice, and neither did she. The conversation was quiet, but she was saying things I know she knows are not true.

All I did was state my position and refused to budge. That intimacy in marriage was important to me. I never made a single demand on her, other than the comment that I intended to be playful, that we would have to cuddle twice as long tonight. 

MEM thinks that was a mistake. Perhaps it was. But that wasn't what really started the slide. It was my using her "I'm never satisfied!" comment as an opening to point out that intimacy is important in a marriage. 

The more I insisted that intimacy was important, the harder she hit back at me. Our row only lasted a few minutes, five at the most. Most of what she said, I believe she said just because she was mad.

Way, way, back at the beginning, Anon Pink wanted to know why I didn't get <censored> off and let her know. This is why. She said things that were awful and hurtful. I did not.

I don't think she actually meant what she said, that at the beginning, when were first married, that the only reason we had sex as often as we did was because she felt guilty. I think that was said only to hurt me. But I do believe her that she feels that way since the birth of the first. That is when it all changed. 

Honestly, I am at my wits end. I no longer no how to approach her. For the next week or so, I am going to be frozen out. She is claiming illness. That means she will be sleeping in the guest bedroom "so you don't get sick."

I will be coming home and preparing my own meals "because the kids were hungry."

I have walked this path before. I know how to get out off of it. But that is going to require me to back completely off on intimacy and continue as if nothing is wrong. Then she will slowly thaw. 

In a few days she will move back into the bedroom with me. A week or so after that, the kids can start waiting until I get home. 

Some time after that, she will allow me to hold her again. And the ship will slowly right. But if I keep pushing on this issue, after I start eating with the family again, progress will stop. I won't be allowed to hold her. She won't allow me to kiss her, and she certainly won't be open to any intimacy. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> So where did you leave it with her when she apologized?


I simply said "apology accepted," and left it at that. I moved to hold her, but she wasn't interested in that, so I returned to my computer. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Where was your kid when this scene took place? You said you're gonna wait for him to finish college, before you think of leaving.


I was just trying to come to grips with what did I want. How far was I really willing to go. MEM's comment kind of stung when he said I liked resolve. 

What I decided is, to be blunt, my happiness is not as important to me as my children's. I can take stand and take it, if I must, to make sure they get the best start possible. 

Now that is resolved. I won't leave over this until he is well on his way. Then I will reevaluate. I will be nearly sixty by then. Maybe I will no longer care and I will be content with what I have. 





intheory said:


> Do you want him to witness this type of meltdown on a regular basis?
> 
> Or are you just going to let him sense the misery and dissatisfaction that his dad lives with.


We've kept this under wraps for 20 years. Another 7 or 8 will be a walk in the park. 





intheory said:


> This is how staying married could be worse for your kid, than getting divorced.
> 
> If your wife truly thinks sex is disgusting; why did she get married? She's an educated person. She knows what a marital relationship entails.


If I could answer this, I wouldn't be here. But I honestly think she believes my drive is out of line with normal people. 

I have shown her the study results in attempt to show her what is normal, but she refuses to believe them. Here's why.

I got a survey from PETA this week. As soon as I opened it and saw what it was, I tossed it. But at some point, PETA is going to report that they survey some number of Americans and they believe X. The thing is, if half the people throw away their surveys because they can't be bothered to respond to PETA, that is going to skew the results. 

That is what she believes about the sex surveys. Only weirdo's with over active sex drives are going to respond to a survey about sex, and normal people won't. So NO WONDER the survey's show people are going like rabbits. Normal people, like here, would never respond to such a survey.





intheory said:


> So, she knows that marriage means sex. She knows that she thinks sex is disgusting. But she gets married; then only has sex to be compliant - while seething with resentment towards you for being a completely normal man who wants sex with his wife.
> 
> Please get into counseling for yourself. So you have an outlet; and a real person to talk to.


She knows marriage means sex. What she complains bitterly about, is how MUCH sex. I have a suspicion that if I were to leave her alone long enough, eventually she would come to me. Then we may fall into the 2-3 times a year that we had before, but at least then she would actually WANT to.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I also believe that tenaciously trying to get someone to do something they dislike - without understanding why they dislike it - never ends well.
> 
> And he's been unintentionally doing that for decades in a persistent but wholly counterproductive attempt to get her to understand and meet his needs.


MEM... I swear to you... I have tried. I have asked "Why don't you want to do this?"

I have asked, "What do you want me to do to make this better?"

I have asked, "How can I change to make you want me again?"

For 15 years I have been picking at this, trying to understand. I will do what ever she wants, all she has to do is tell me. But all I get back are non-answers, or sometimes no answer, just a shake of the head. 

The one thing she wanted, and what I finally did give her, was to just leave her alone and not try to be sexually active with her. 

In the end, THAT'S what she wants. She has been really happy this last year. She wants to be married to me, but not have sex with me. That's a tough road for me to follow.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Cooper...
> 
> The volatile part.... Could she be dealing with a personality disorder? Say, NPD or BPD or what not?


I don't know. I wouldn't think so because the ONLY time she acts like this is when intimacy comes up.

If I let that sleeping dog lie, she is a perfectly normal, loving, giving person. 

Is there trauma? I don't know. The only trauma I know of is her boyfriend swallowed a bullet. Not the one she was dating when I met her, but the previous one. I know that bothered her for a long time, but I thought she was over that. 

I can't see any other trauma. Her ten month older sister seems totally normal, as does her mother. Her father died before I met her. 

And with her sister being only 10 months and a few days older, it would appear that her parents had an active sex life.


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> So now I make allowances for her.


This personality type is going to view placation as validation. 

It's tough if you're the type of personality that takes pride in *not* being the "Jerk" but they really leave you no choice.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> OK, so now we know what it looks like when you upset the apple cart, when you disrupt your uneasy brokered peace.
> 
> For the first time, you are really making progress. You are stating your boundaries and your expectations. (The only step backward was apologizing at the end. But, that's OK, you're new at the "standing up for yourself bit.")
> 
> ...


I PICK #2

Copp Tell me some fairytale story #3

In 100 years not 6 can this change without a hard decission.

Others are exactly right Your son's quality of life is at risk.

You two are close so he can live with you NO ?

If the D factor is in the picture,and it's becoming more clear that it is 6 years?? thats 6 years of regression.

No IC for her and you..... No marriage period not in June *Now*.

That should be your final stand.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Honestly, I am at my wits end. I no longer no how to approach her. For the next week or so, I am going to be frozen out. She is claiming illness. That means she will be sleeping in the guest bedroom "so you don't get sick."
> 
> I will be coming home and preparing my own meals "because the kids were hungry."
> 
> ...


At this point, I can only tell you how I would react. Whether it is smart or not, I don't know. Probably not. But if I were you, what I would do is this: let her have it her own way.

That is, I would start taking myself out to dinner before going home, so she wouldn't have to worry about cooking for me. I'd start sleeping in the guest room so she would not need to fear intimacy or risk crossing or challenging her boundaries. If she called me on it, I would say something like "I thought this was what you wanted. You were complaining that it was all about me, and so I've decided to give you exactly what you want: no intimacy period."

If she didn't call me on it, I would realize once and for all that this really is what she wants from her life and relationships. Which, granted, would be pretty heart-breaking ... but in the end it's her choice.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She KNOWS it's important to you. Very important. And knows you are unhappy with her role in that area. 

Repeating that when she's already upset adds no content and makes her more agitated. 

In that situation your only play is to get her to relax - so you have a shot at getting an answer to WHY she's avoiding non sexual affection. 

Open ended question first and if she just says: I just don't like it that much....

More specific question: Is it because you see this as step one to me pushing you for more sex? 

--------
If she gets nasty - you stay on message: Don't change the subject, it's a sincere question. I really do want to know why you are pushing me away. 






CopperTop said:


> I didn't lash out. I never raised my voice, and neither did she. The conversation was quiet, but she was saying things I know she knows are not true.
> 
> All I did was state my position and refused to budge. That intimacy in marriage was important to me. I never made a single demand on her, other than the comment that I intended to be playful, that we would have to cuddle twice as long tonight.
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

So after YOU apologized for HER outburst, you moved in for more touch? Seriously?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So after YOU apologized for HER outburst, you moved in for more touch? Seriously?


Yes. I wanted her to know I was still there for her. One of the core values... slow to anger, quick to forgive.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Not really. All the above still worries me. The reason I want to wait for him to graduate is because I worry about doing anything at this point that would cause him to veer off the trajectory he is on. He is on course to do GREAT things, to be wildly successful in everything he does. I don't want to risk that... not by leaving, not by failing to have the resources to provide him with every opportunity that comes his way.


Copp, I said to myself I was going to close the book on this thread but like I said in an earlier post, I enjoy computer games and don't seem to be able to put this one down. I've simply got to get control of myself.
Now then, let me ask you one more question. Are you trial lawyer? The reason I ask is that you seem a lot like me when I practiced, i.e., to be formulating a rebuttal to every comment, suggestion, and piece of advice as your reading it. I'll have to say you're not that bad at it, even if you do come off looking like a doormat. Just one more suggestion. Go back edit your starting post and insert this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> At this point, I can only tell you how I would react. Whether it is smart or not, I don't know. Probably not. But if I were you, what I would do is this: let her have it her own way.
> 
> That is, I would start taking myself out to dinner before going home, so she wouldn't have to worry about cooking for me. I'd start sleeping in the guest room so she would not need to fear intimacy or risk crossing or challenging her boundaries. If she called me on it, I would say something like "I thought this was what you wanted. You were complaining that it was all about me, and so I've decided to give you exactly what you want: no intimacy period."
> 
> If she didn't call me on it, I would realize once and for all that this really is what she wants from her life and relationships. Which, granted, would be pretty heart-breaking ... but in the end it's her choice.


I get what you are saying... but then we couldn't "pretend" anymore for the kids. Right now we keep the squabbles between ourselves. 

When one of the kids picks up on her being mad (they can never tell when I'm upset) I tell them the truth... "Mom's mad at me," and I leave it at that. If they press for more details, I tell them if I can and it is nothing big (I forgot the milk) or tell them its nothing and to not worry about it if is more serious (like this).

The reason this works is because she gets grumpy like this when she REALLY is sick. So she is not out of character... and the kids are none the wiser. If they know more than they are telling, they are very good actors. 

I hate to drag them into this. I remember when my mom had her affair and I watched that marriage come apart. It wasn't pretty and I don't want to do that to my kids. 

Better to just end it with a single stroke, quick and clean.


Copper


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Copp, I said to myself I was going to close the book on this thread but like I said in an earlier post, I enjoy computer games and don't seem to be able to put this one down. I've simply got to get control of myself.
> Now then, let me ask you one more question. Are you trial lawyer? The reason I ask is that you seem a lot like me when I practiced, i.e., to be formulating a rebuttal to every comment, suggestion, and piece of advice as your reading it.


LOL. I was thinking this or in the field of English Academia.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Honestly, I am at my wits end. I no longer no how to approach her. For the next week or so, I am going to be frozen out. She is claiming illness. That means she will be sleeping in the guest bedroom "so you don't get sick."
> 
> I will be coming home and preparing my own meals "because the kids were hungry."
> 
> ...


And this is a good marriage other than sex.

Don't think for a minute that your kids don't know exactly what she is doing. She is modeling terrible behavior for your son to see. I'm guessing your daughter is away at college. I sure hope so, and I really hope the apple falls far from the tree for your daughters sake.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Now then, let me ask you one more question. Are you trial lawyer? The reason I ask is that you seem a lot like me when I practiced, i.e., to be formulating a rebuttal to every comment, suggestion, and piece of advice as your reading it. I'll have to say you're not that bad at it, even if you do come off looking like a doormat.


That's funny right there. 

No, not a trial lawyer. Information Technology. 

Maybe the reason it seems like I am rebutting is because a good many of these ideas (with the exception of packing my bags and leaving) I have already tried. I know how she thinks because I have asked all the questions and gotten all the answers.

The example of the survey? That was nearly verbatim her reasoning. Only oversexed perverts would answer such a thing. No wonder they got the results they reported.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Repeating that when she's already upset adds no content and makes her more agitated.


Okay. But the reason I focused on that was Buddy and Always cautioned I shouldn't assume she DID know. 

I couldn't understand how she couldn't, but okay. By god, she would know after our talk.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> I'm guessing your daughter is away at college. I sure hope so, and I really hope the apple falls far from the tree for your daughters sake.


Daughter is JUST like her mother. Son is very much like me. Both still live at home.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Not really. All the above still worries me. The reason I want to wait for him to graduate is because I worry about doing anything at this point that would cause him to veer off the trajectory he is on. He is on course to do GREAT things, to be wildly successful in everything he does. I don't want to risk that... not by leaving, not by failing to have the resources to provide him with every opportunity that comes his way.
> 
> Since I started this thread, he has been invited to study in England for a year. I don't know what that is going to cost, but I imagine it is going to be expensive. Now we can afford to send him, and our family life is stable enough that he has no reason to worry about anything.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are giving your son enough credit, and your idea about kids from broken homes is antiquated. I;m from a broken home, and have gone on to great success both persoanlly and professionally.

The fact that you are lying to your kids and covering for their Mom is quationable.

Your son is 15, not 5. You need to remember that as you go through this. He KNOWS way more than you think he does about what is going on between you and C2. Of course he's not going to say anything, especially since you keep covering for C2.

The fact that you are saying she is mad about you forgetting to pick up milk also shows your son that it's ok get that mad at your spouse for not getting milk. Is that what you want? Do you want him in your shoes when he's 50?

You are white-washing so much of this situation. She's a dream wife as long as I don't push for sex! I just don't understand how you don't see this.

Will you at least admit that C2 is manipulating you?

Also, you never responded to my post about talking to a lawyer.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I still say that there isn't anything wrong with your wife except she's lazy, selfish, used to getting her own way and pitches a tantrum when she doesn't. She acts like a spoiled brat and knows that when she pitches one of her hissy fits she gets what she wants. She's a child.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Okay. But the reason I focused on that was Buddy and Always cautioned I shouldn't assume she DID know.
> 
> I couldn't understand how she couldn't, but okay. By god, she would know after our talk.


My sincere apologies if I'm adding more confusion than clarity in all of this.

Context is everything in these things. When I said that, I was under the impression that you were gently telling her you wanted more intimacy, and when she reacted negatively, you backed off and let it drop. And that you hadn't really raised the issue in over a year. In such a context, I could easily imagine that she was failing to grasp just how much the issue affects you. 

In the context of an argument where she is lashing out at you because of your desire for intimacy, it is still quite possible that she doesn't fully appreciate the depth of your need (especially because she thinks anyone who has that much sex is a loose pervert), but she definitely does understand that you are upset enough to be arguing with her in the moment. 

I hope that makes sense.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> My sincere apologies if I'm adding more confusion than clarity in all of this.
> 
> Context is everything in these things. When I said that, I was under the impression that you were gently telling her you wanted more intimacy, and when she reacted negatively, you backed off and let it drop. And that you hadn't really raised the issue in over a year. In such a context, I could easily imagine that she was failing to grasp just how much the issue affects you.
> 
> ...


Your first example is spot on. I would ask, she would reject, I would drop it. That went on for years. For the last year, no mention of it at all.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> I don't think you are giving your son enough credit, and your idea about kids from broken homes is antiquated. I;m from a broken home, and have gone on to great success both persoanlly and professionally.
> 
> The fact that you are lying to your kids and covering for their Mom is quationable.
> 
> ...


I'm from a broken home as well, and I turned okay... maybe. But I still remember the fights and my step dad trying to find out where mom was, and the bitterness between them. C2 and I don't act like that.

The milk was just an example. I don't recall her getting mad over something THAT trivial.

I don't know that my notions about broken homes is that far off. I bet most troubled teens come from single parent homes.


Copper


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> *I'm from a broken home as well, and I turned okay... maybe.* But I still remember the fights and my step dad trying to find out where mom was, and the bitterness between them. C2 and I don't act like that.
> 
> The milk was just an example. I don't recall her getting mad over something THAT trivial.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to stay out of this thread. Frankly it's depressing. I just wanted to respond to the part in bold. 

You're not ok. I don't know if you actually have stockholm syndrome or if you just appear that way, but no way in hell are you ok.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Copper, seriously... Why are you talking and not doing? 

You ask her endless questions you never get a full answer to. 

Her behaviors all reek of severe passive-aggressiveness. 

You aren't going to succeed with words. 

You say what's another 7-8 years? Well, compared to 20 they seem small, but you can control if they'll be 7-8 years alone, miserable, and untouched or 7-8 years of togetherness with someone who adores you.

I truly wish you all the best.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Cooper, 

I am going to quote for you, my post #494 way back on page 30-something:



> I see that you are essentially blaming yourself for your wife's choices, and I would like to encourage you to take responsibility for YOUR SIDE of the street, and *allow her to be a fully grown adult who is responsible for HER SIDE of the street*.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I wrote this "way back then" and I am re-emphasizing it for you now. See the part in large, red letters? That is what she is doing now. You moved the island. The bridge (the marriage) was shook up a little. And how did she react? I quote YET AGAIN: 

_"(She tried)... to lasso you and pull you back to where you were! She will try every trick in the book that has worked before, including: leaving, crying, threatening, promising, raging, forcing, deceiving...anything that has worked before to get you back into sexlessness!"_

See this is something I tried to warn you would happen, and now lo and behold it has happened. She is in the process of trying her tricks to get you back into line! She tried leaving for one night--that didn't work. She tried going to bed early and that sort of worked but you didn't let it slide, so in the end it didn't work. She now has tried RAGING and saying awful, hurtful things. And Cooper I am giving you the warning AGAIN:









*She is going to keep resisting and trying anything that worked before to get you back into the way it was before: accepting sexlessness.*

So your job is to be aware that she is going to keep trying to get back to the way it was. Your job is to think back on what has worked before. Your job is to think of A NEW WAY TO REACT that is in line your own personal values and with a realistic view of sexuality in marriage. So in other words, your job is NOT to just go back to accepting sexlessness!! Nope, if anything now is the time that you need to STAND FIRM on your new change. Don't budge. Don't give in.

Now, when I say "Don't budge. Don't give in" I don't mean you have to be inhuman or uncaring or unkind. You can be willing to go slow and work MUTUALLY on the problem; that's thoughtful and patient of you, but you choose that. What I would very strongly encourage you to NOT choose, though, is giving it and just accepting no sex in your marriage. 

Finally, I'm giving you my gut feeling here, and I can't point to data (which I know you prefer) but rather it's more of an intuition--but your wife is acting like, responding like and talking like someone who did have some sort of sexual trauma in their life and then buried it. As an example, maybe she was raped in college, refused to address it at the time, her next boyfriend committed suicide and she refused to address that, and then you came along and made her life easy! Now I'm not diagnosing and again I say I have no evidence to support this conjecture, and yet her behavior, the way she thinks, her attitude all point toward SOMETHING that is sorely askew. 

For there to be true healing in this marriage, first she would have to admit (at least to herself) that something occurred, then she'd have to want some sort of counseling or therapy to change, then she'd have to be willing to put in the effort to address herself and her fears and work through them. This would have to be something she wants of her own accord otherwise you'd be like the guy trying to get his wife to diet by counting her calories and not buying junk food and meanwhile she's sneaking DingDongs and candybars sabotaging it all! SHE has to want it, and it doesn't sound like she's at that point yet. However, it would be in her best interest to address this fear/trauma/issue and thus it would be LOVING of you to give her motivation to want it for herself--and you can do that by no longer ENABLING her to game of avoiding sex and blameshifting it on you (by saying YOU are perverted, etc.). And what motivates a person to WANT to change themselves and face their fears? *When the cost of "staying the same" is more painful than changing! * That's what! 

So Cooper, don't back down now. You're making a difference! You can be thoughtful and kind, but be firm. You will not accept or tolerate a sexless marriage, and that includes "duty sex." Period. She won't like it--I guarantee you that--but it will be best for her and it may save your marriage. If you back down, you are dooming her to a life of skewed mental health and destroying your marriage. Which do you choose? Are you man enough to STAND for your wife and your marriage? 

You can do this!!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> *You're not ok. I don't know if you actually have stockholm syndrome or if you just appear that way, but no way in hell are you ok.*





CopperTop said:


> *We've kept this under wraps for 20 years.* Another 7 or 8 will be a walk in the park.



Copper,

You're not "okay". Anyone who would accept this treatment; and allow himself to sexually wither away for years and years, is not okay. You need to treat yourself to a good therapist/counselor/psychologist/psychiatrist -- choose the word you like best. And you're not alone. Almost all of us have some kind of issue. Why else are we here? But you need the support of a qualified real life human; who can guide you and help you to understand why you have allowed yourself to be treated this way.

I think you are kidding yourself, if you think this is under wraps. Your kids have been under the same roof with you two all of their lives. They have acquired this dynamic by osmosis.

Your son is like you? So, there's a real strong chance he will "pick" a partner who treats him like your wife treats you.

Your daughter is like your wife? How is she at conflict resolution with other human beings? Wouldn't you want her life-partner to like and love her? Not be walking on egg-shells around her, in constant "please and appease" mode.

I'm sure you haven't told us every detail about your wife. But from what you have told us; I don't see her as being "sweet", "loving", "caring", "great company" etc etc. Or any of the other romantic superlatives that you have attributed to her, fwiw.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

If you insist on staying, it is imperative that you engage in individual counseling. I stand by my comment made dozens of pages ago regarding the "martyr syndrome." The twist now is that you're being a martyr to shield your kids. 

I think you have that backwards, by the way. You're not shielding them. They're shielding you from making the uncomfortable decision that you need to make for your own health. You've grown comfortable in the skin of being the harshly treated protector of family sanity. It's been the salve to your emotional wounds for so long, you don't know any other way. I get that, and I understand where you're coming from - and how you got to this point. But that doesn't mean that it's right or healthy.

The ship has sailed on trying to fix her. That's a lost cause. What I want you to do is start pouring your guts out to an individual counselor who can help you unravel all of this. You have to find yourself and discover a sense of self-esteem that does not hinge upon a barely functioning co-dependent marital relationship. You can start to fix a thing in your relationship until you focus on getting you better. 

Do not return to the status quo of the past 20 years. The stakes are too high. The answer does not lie in retreating to your hobbies and waiting for the sweet release of death. Something is fundamentally wrong and you owe it to yourself to figure out what that is. And you need somebody from the outside to help you in that task.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

C2 is very good at what she does! I really feel for you Cooper. And I am sorry you are dealing with such a woman. I agree with Affaircare about that the trauma issue. My gut is also screaming some kind of sexual abuse occured. 

Honestly - I don't know what to tell you anymore! 

Is it possible for you to leave the home for about a month or two - tell C2 you need time away from her to think - tell the kids you are going on an extended buisiness trip? And then just do some IC to try to get your head straight on where to go from here? 

Another thought would be to move yourself into a separate bedroom - and do a total separation - except you stay living in the house. You separate the finances, the chores, - and you only commincate on parental or house administrative items. You tell your kids that you and C2 are having some severe marital issues, need some space from each other to do some thinking, for now are staying married and wil continue to live in the same house and both be there for them as always. Then you become as cold as ice to her when the kids are not around - and slightly warmer (not much) when they are. Could you do something like this?

The only thing I am sure of that you absoultely should do - is continue with counseling - only find a good sex therapist to replace the general counselor you have now. Be honest with C2 that you are going - if nothing else tell her you are working on your perverted attitude of wanting to have sex with your wife more than 3 times a year!!! 

Locate a Professional | AASECT:: American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi Copper,

It sounds like you think you can sick it out until your son is done with college, and then because you'll be 60 maybe you won't have a sex drive anymore and can be content to just stay put.

This is flawed. I know 80 year olds who are happily being intimate on a regular basis. 

You could have a couple of decades with a real partner. Don't waste more time than you already have on the hopes that you may just dry up soon.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Copper - You could probably use this about now

The Crucible Four Points of Balance | Crucible4Points.com

And something to think about as a possibility - IF (it sounds like that is still a big IFFFF) you could get her to do it with you!

Crucible® Intensive Therapy Program | Crucible4Points.com

Or perhaps you could call them and see if you can go do the intensive program for a week on your own... Wouldn't that shake her up a bit....

just saying...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Another thought would be to move yourself into a separate bedroom - and do a total separation - except you stay living in the house. *You separate the finances, the chores,* - and you only commincate on parental or house administrative items. You tell your kids that you and C2 are having some severe marital issues, need some space from each other to do some thinking, for now are staying married and wil continue to live in the same house and both be there for them as always. Then you become as cold as ice to her when the kids are not around - and slightly warmer (not much) when they are. Could you do something like this?


mary,

Do you think C2 is going to allow that to happen? The finances and chores part that I bolded above.

I mean, based on what Copper has shared; what type of antics might she resort to in order to get Copper back in line as live in ATM/butler?

I'm not being snotty. I like your comment for the most part. But I would hate for Copper to have to live with more domestic grief.

Otoh, him taking off for a couple of months to take care of himself???:smthumbup:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Sorry... I have been in crisis mode the last few hours. C2 dumped a problem in my lap that left me scrambling.

I have tried very hard to not paint her as a troll. She's really not. If I avoid the issue of martial sex, she really is a very easy person to live with. 

Was there trauma in the past? Not that I know of, other than the boyfriend, but who knows. 

The fights and freeze out, etc., isn't a common thing. We haven't really quarreled until recently in several years. I knew my boundaries and I mostly stayed within them.

If I get back to that, but add in the initiate sex so she can reject me which is what she wants, then I suppose I can coast through the rest of the marriage in relative peace. And compared to many here, it's not a bad marriage. No drug or alcohol abuse. No affairs. No physical or emotional abuse. Yes, there is no passion, but really, I bet a lot of people in some of the other focused topics forums would gladly trade places with me in a moment. 

It's only when I poke the sore spot that she reacts the way she does. I guess in some ways, that can be viewed as selfish on my part because I keep digging at a place that hurts her for my own gain. 

I don't think I can fix this. I don't have the skills or knowledge. I don't know what to do to bring her to a better place. And since she thinks I'M the problem, she has no incentive to change. 


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

"One cannot fill a cup which is already full."

Enjoy your cars, Copper. I'll send you well wishes while I wrench as well.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> You're not "okay". Anyone who would accept this treatment; and allow himself to sexually wither away for years and years, is not okay. You need to treat yourself to a good therapist/counselor/psychologist/psychiatrist -- choose the word you like best. And you're not alone. Almost all of us have some kind of issue. Why else are we here? But you need the support of a qualified real life human; who can guide you and help you to understand why you have allowed yourself to be treated this way.


They don't see it. She will be mad for a few days, but if I don't twist her up anymore, things will go back to the way they were. I suspect if any of you saw us in public, you would never know. Well, you might know now because I am still smarting from the backlash, but in a few days, when I have gotten past it, I will be back to my normal, jovial self. 





intheory said:


> I think you are kidding yourself, if you think this is under wraps. Your kids have been under the same roof with you two all of their lives. They have acquired this dynamic by osmosis.
> 
> Your son is like you? So, there's a real strong chance he will "pick" a partner who treats him like your wife treats you.


She treats me well, except when she is mad or in the marriage bed. And I go along with it. The only time the creeping envy gets to me is at night, alone, in bed. The other times I am positive, upbeat and busy. 

C2 is the same if we are not in conflict. Well, except the envy part. That doesn't bother her. 





intheory said:


> Your daughter is like your wife? How is she at conflict resolution with other human beings? Wouldn't you want her life-partner to like and love her? Not be walking on egg-shells around her, in constant "please and appease" mode.


Her conflict resolution is terrible. She withdraws. We have only a minimally working relationship. She thinks I'm overbearing and demanding. 





intheory said:


> I'm sure you haven't told us every detail about your wife. But from what you have told us; I don't see her as being "sweet", "loving", "caring", "great company" etc etc. Or any of the other romantic superlatives that you have attributed to her, fwiw.


She really, really is, so long as I don't poke, prod and push her on the intimacy issue. Not so long ago she made chocolate chip cookies for me. They are my absolutely favorite thing in the world. No reason, she just made them. I had to do a little extra on the cardio, but they were worth it. 

She is almost like Jekyll and Hyde. Most of the time she is Dr. Jekyll. I'm the one that brings out Mr. Hyde. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> "One cannot fill a cup which is already full."
> 
> Enjoy your cars, Copper. I'll send you well wishes while I wrench as well.


Yeah. I know. That is where I'm coming back to. I remember now why I quit pushing. I just don't know what to do other than leave.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah. I know. That is where I'm coming back to. I remember now why I quit pushing. I just don't know what to do other than leave.
> 
> 
> Copper


Yeah you do. Don't kid us, and more importantly, yourself. It just takes more than you've got. I don't mean that as a swipe. Sometimes it's just the way things are. 

There's better out there for you man. FAR BETTER. And you sound like a guy that desperately deserves it. I, like so many other posters I'm sure, think you should reach out for it. As I alluded to, getting a taste of a REAL relationship with a functioning woman (and I'm not talking "sex") might just open your eyes to what your spouse really has become.

But we can't take that step for you. You have to do it. But you don't want to - and that's entirely up to you.

Let me give you a little more backstory about me. Probably irrelevant in your eyes, but you might see some similarities.

My first marriage (that I more than successfully escaped) was to a woman who I could easily see becoming exactly like the wife you describe. "Wonderful" as long as she's getting her way. 

About 7 years into our relationship she made the unilateral decision to "discover" herself and see what relations with women would be like. I was expected to passively watch on the sidelines (not literally). She wasn't "leaving" the marriage, and it wasn't "cheating" because a) she told me about it beforehand and b) it was women, not other men.

When I walked, she was dumbstruck. She thought she had the type of sway over me that your wife has over you. That the fear of losing what we had, or damage to our child, or financial turmoil, etc; would make me stay. There is basically not one thing about the divorce that didn't go my way, with the notable exception that I regretfully did not seek child support from her. 

And I had my happy ending. A marriage going on 11 years to a WONDERFUL amazing woman, that doesn't take me for granted. A son who respects me, and himself, and knows that while he must always love his parents, he doesn't have to love what they do to themselves and others. 

I COULD have stayed. I considered it. Some suggested it. For ALL the same reasons you listed. She ended up cancelling all her "extramarital plans" when she saw how resigned I was to ending the relationship. But it was already over. I had seen her for what she was. 

And your wife has SHOWN you that same type, numerous times.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Yeah you do. Don't kid us, and more importantly, yourself. It just takes more than you've got. I don't mean that as a swipe. Sometimes it's just the way things are.
> 
> There's better out there for you man. FAR BETTER. And you sound like a guy that desperately deserves it. I, like so many other posters I'm sure, think you should reach out for it. As I alluded to, getting a taste of a REAL relationship with a functioning woman (and I'm not talking "sex") might just open your eyes to what your spouse really has become.
> 
> But we can't take that step for you. You have to do it. But you don't want to - and that's entirely up to you.


:iagree:

Well said!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I have tried very hard to not paint her as a troll. She's really not. If I avoid the issue of martial sex, she really is a very easy person to live with.



Not to worry, Copper. I have set the standard for trollifying a spouse so high that it will take terabytes to unseat Dr. J2...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> She is almost like Jekyll and Hyde. Most of the time she is Dr. Jekyll. I'm the one that brings out Mr. Hyde.



That tickled my BPD meter to MAX...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Copp my man, just a thought. Since we're coming up on St Patty's day, see if you can't find this to wear. It suits you and C2 may think its sexy.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Last post before I turn in for the night. A few minutes ago I sat C2 down and asked her straight out to answer a couple of questions for me, to help me understand. I could tell she didn't want to, but she finally agreed. I'm writing it down now while it is still fresh. The below may not be a verbatim transcript, but it pretty close.

=====

"Is intimacy between us important to you?" She started to get riled up but I placated her by telling her I was just trying to understand. 

She said, "No. Not like you mean."

"What's it mean to you?"

"It means being close to each other. Like we were before you started nagging me again."

"You mean the hugs and kisses? That sort of thing?" (Note: Kisses in this context are the public "smooches" most couples do)

"Yes. Why can't we just do that? That's nice. But then you ruined it."

"We can. But you don't want anything more?"

"No."

"Is it me? Something I did?"

"No. Except when you are trying to make me feel guilty. Then it's you. I hate it when you do that. Like now. Why are we talking about this again!?" 

"Will you tell me why?"

"Why what?"

"Why you don't want anything more."

I waited and waited but she didn't answer. I prompted her again and she just shook her head no. 

"Why? Why won't you tell me?"

"I don't know why! It's just not important to me, okay!? I don't understand why it is so important to you! You make me so mad when you are nagging on me about this all the time! If you would just leave me alone about it, everything would be fine!" 

I started retreating at this point. I knew where this was going so I called it off before she got upset again. With that I kissed her goodnight, let her finish her ablutions, and she went to bed in the guest room. 

All her answers were, more or less, what I expected. I'm revealed each time she says that its not me, even though she has told me that in the past. 

I wanted to ask her again about counseling, but she was winding up and I didn't want to go there. Having the flesh flayed from me once in a week is enough, than you very much.

Everyone keeps saying stand and fight, but its hard. I'm about ready to throw in the towel again. How can I solve a problem if I don't even know what it is... if SHE doesn't even know what it is? I'm coming back to the conclusion there is no fixing this, it is what it is, and I just need to accept it. 


Copper


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Everyone keeps saying stand and fight, but its hard.
> Copper


You know what? This is about the third time you have used an all inclusive identifier to express how people are posting. I'm calling you on it now. 
The people you decided to hear are saying "fight." There is a chorus of posters saying the exact opposite.


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## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

I just read this whole thread. Wow. You really don't see that you are in relationship ruled by manipulation do you? 

Karole said this a few pages back and this is the truth. Your wife is obese and selfish. She is spoiled by you and is literally not motivated enough to change her health- which will improve your entire relationship not to mention the lives of your entire family. I suspect your wife doesn't get out much with the kids either..Going for hikes or concerts? 

During your "touching" time she doesn't want you to touch her because she hates her own body. Her obese, unhealthy lifestyle affects EVERYTHING.. her attitude, her hormones her sex drive EVERYTHING. I have no answers for you because you have already said that you are gonna stick it out. Good luck.


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## HeartbrokenW (Sep 26, 2012)

Call her bluff. Would she rather have a life with you with sexual intimacy or grow old by herself? If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

ToothFairy said:


> IHer obese, unhealthy lifestyle affects EVERYTHING.. her attitude, her hormones her sex drive EVERYTHING. I have no answers for you because you have already said that you are gonna stick it out. Good luck.


Copper,

Some have suggested that CSA is the root of your wife's revulsion toward sex. Anything is possible. *I**f she refuses therapy, you'll probably never know.*

_But_, being obese; will absolutely mess up sex hormones.

More fat = more estrogen. So, when you are obese, that is a lot of estrogen. The sex drive hormone is testosterone. Your wife's testosterone is being drowned out. Therefore; no sex drive.

There is a movie called "Bliss" (it's just a movie, not a documentary). It starts Craig Sheffer and Sheryl Lee. You can look it up. I wonder how your wife would react to watching it with you. If she asks why you picked it; you can truthfully say you heard about it online and thought it sounded good.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Context is everything in these things. When I said that, I was under the impression that you were gently telling her you wanted more intimacy, and when she reacted negatively, you backed off and let it drop. And that you hadn't really raised the issue in over a year. In such a context, I could easily imagine that she was failing to grasp just how much the issue affects you.





CopperTop said:


> Your first example is spot on. I would ask, she would reject, I would drop it. That went on for years. For the last year, no mention of it at all.





CopperTop said:


> Everyone keeps saying stand and fight, but its hard. I'm about ready to throw in the towel again. How can I solve a problem if I don't even know what it is... if SHE doesn't even know what it is? I'm coming back to the conclusion there is no fixing this, it is what it is, and I just need to accept it.


Copper, you know what your options are:
1) Leave
2) Stay and continue to keep peace, maintain status quo
3) Stay and attempt to make some changes

Clearly #2 is most comfortable for you because this is the pattern you keep repeating. 

But there are 2 other possibilities, if you want to make changes.
#3 will require not throwing in the towel after just a few days of trying; #1 will require starting over. Both will require professional help, be it therapist or lawyer.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

People don't like to admit it or think about it....especially the people going through it. But your best chance of achieving #3 is by doing #1. It's a wake up call, and your best shot. And honestly, if it doesn't wake her up to change, you're still better off.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Copper, you know what your options are:
> 1) Leave
> 2) Stay and continue to keep peace, maintain status quo
> 3) Stay and attempt to make some changes
> ...


I vote for option 4) Stay and continue to keep peace, maintain status quo, inform her you are conceding to her wish for a completely sexless marriage AND you stop "bothering her" in that way, because you will be meeting your sexual needs outside the marriage. (this is not a request for her permission, just a statement of fact that you make to her).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

intheory said:


> mary,
> 
> Do you think C2 is going to allow that to happen? The finances and chores part that I bolded above.
> 
> ...


More than likely, she would flat out leave.

My situation is very similar to Copper's. The notable differences are (1) I am considerably younger and (3) CSA history for my ex is confirmed.

My ex kept trying to play C2's cards. First, it's my fault. Then, sex is not a need and you're ruining a good thing.

After I rejected all that and detached, she *****ed about how miserable she was and how mean I was. But she stuck around for the tangible benefits. After I got laid off, it took her all of three months to buy and refurbish a new home and put out feelers for a new relationship, and another month to drop the bomb and bail out.

So, trust me, C2 is around just for the benefit to her. Even though she is miserable at meeting Copper's needs and feels it is acceptable, she will bail out - quickly - if he stops providing and she knows he's serious.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Some folks just enjoy being the martyr.....


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> MEM... I swear to you... I have tried. I have asked "Why don't you want to do this?"
> 
> I have asked, "What do you want me to do to make this better?"
> 
> ...


Copp “ In The End” very sad case Yes she wants to be married to you

But no not really what she wants is someone to offer her a security blanket. She wants to love you on her terms.
Honestly Copp what to do ?

I am never one to give up. But I will stop beating my head against the wall at some point .I am never one to advise anyone to throw in the towel on their marriage. It seems C2 really has.
This really can’t continue. You love her but you want to love her as her husband which she will not allow. She does not love you as a wife so what’s the point then?

If your words here are true, and I believe they have been you really have come to the end of the line.

IF she loves you then she must let you go without the threat of eviscerating you financially. That’s all she has to keep you at bay. You are keeping yourself at bay for your son. Is his maturity level less than others of his age? I suspect not and I would bet he sees more than you realize. Have that conversation with him.

You can continue to be her “Friend” really that’s all you have been to her .You must tell her this .You can’t love her as a husband needs and wants to we all know it does not work that way.

When that discussion happens just leave the Sex and Intimacy out of it because for her it is off the table. It should only about the natural husband wife relationship and what it means to both of you and they are not the same.

I really couldn’t say she is “bad” but if all is true she most certainly is broken. Beyond repair?, maybe not but by you most definitely. On her own most defiantly 
This kind of broken can and most likely will take years to resolve if ever. I know you know this.

If you love her, you must let it go so she can seek change in herself. People only change if they have to. All you have been doing is allowing her to hide from herself. All of her coping mechanisms are predictable behavior if you do A you are fairly certain she will do B over and over the only change is B escalates. 

Don’t feel badly or a failure. You have endured more than most humans could under the circumstances.
Move on we are a long time dead.

55


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Last post before I turn in for the night. A few minutes ago I sat C2 down and asked her straight out to answer a couple of questions for me, to help me understand. I could tell she didn't want to, but she finally agreed. I'm writing it down now while it is still fresh. The below may not be a verbatim transcript, but it pretty close.
> 
> =====
> 
> ...


Hi Copper,

Your situation is on my mind lately, because it is similar to the dynamic in my marriage (which ended 5+ years ago). Based on those similarities and how my situation played out, I don't think you are correctly counting the costs of staying together.

That you are still questioning her about why she cannot provide for you strongly indicates you cannot happily remain engaged to your wife in a sexless marriage. There is nothing wrong with that, BTW - I also could not accept it.

What I realized is that just as bothersome as the lack of sex was the lack of equality in the relationship. It was not enough that I settle for whatever little sex my ex chose to provide (including none at all). I was expected to meet her needs well and cheerfully even as I was being disregarded. Sound familiar?

At the end, I made it clear that I would no longer ask for sex but would also not suck up. I hung out with family and friends. My then preschool-aged daughter and I went out and enjoyed life while my ex did her own thing. She did try a little at the end, but never addressed her underlying issues and her effort fizzled. When I got laid off and job prospects were poor, she left.

So, you need to understand that in order for you to make this work, you need to remain happily engaged and in service to her through the lack of sex. You detach to cope and you will suffer her wrath. You will fail to provide that stability for your son. And, if for some reason your wife is still not happy, she will be out.

Your conversation above is honest and genuine but sounds weak. Everything said reinforces the concept of her sensibilities as the relationship standard and yours in relation to hers (and thus inferior). I suggest you first change the tenor of what you say to her regarding sex (if you must engage her at all): 

* Instead of some variety of "don't I do enough for you", simply state "I am the prize as much as you or any other woman I am with. Going forward I will live that out and ensure my happiness".

* Instead of "won't you..." or "can't you...", say "my needs are equal to yours. Your issues are not my fault and don't prevent you from meeting my needs. I expect you to act accordingly".

* If she says you are a pervert, just want sex, already get lots of attention from her, etc. you again state how your needs matter as much as hers. Add that it is not her place to pass judgment on your needs and declare them inferior to hers.

* If she complains "how can you want me to do something I dislike" you respond "I only want you to put as much effort into my needs as I put into yours. I am disappointed that you are content to get much and return little." Also note that she could address her unhappiness and get to a point where she could cheerfully provide for you, but refuses to do so.

It might help to ask her how she would feel if your son were married to someone who treated him like she treats you.

At some point, you should tell her your plans. You will stick around to make sure your son has an intact home. You will run the household for your son. Otherwise, you are basically co-parents and roommates. Unless she has an emergency she should not bother you with her personal crap.

If she rejects all this and bails, then you know she almost certainly would have anyways, and can be happy you did as much as you could.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You know what? This is about the third time you have used an all inclusive identifier to express how people are posting. I'm calling you on it now.
> The people you decided to hear are saying "fight." There is a chorus of posters saying the exact opposite.


You're quite right. My mistake. MOST are saying leave. Some are saying fight.

I stand corrected. My apologies for misrepresenting the truth.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> At this point, I can only tell you how I would react. Whether it is smart or not, I don't know. Probably not. But if I were you, what I would do is this: let her have it her own way.
> 
> That is, I would start taking myself out to dinner before going home, so she wouldn't have to worry about cooking for me. I'd start sleeping in the guest room so she would not need to fear intimacy or risk crossing or challenging her boundaries. If she called me on it, I would say something like "I thought this was what you wanted. You were complaining that it was all about me, and so I've decided to give you exactly what you want: no intimacy period."
> 
> If she didn't call me on it, I would realize once and for all that this really is what she wants from her life and relationships. Which, granted, would be pretty heart-breaking ... but in the end it's her choice.





DTO said:


> You will stick around to make sure your son has an intact home. You will run the household for your son. Otherwise, you are basically co-parents and roommates. Unless she has an emergency she should not bother you with her personal crap.



I did some hard thinking last night and I think this is my plan. I won't move into the guest room, but if I just wait 15 minutes after she goes to bed, she will never know I was there anyway. But otherwise, this. We only recently started cuddling again anyway, so I we are used to sleeping alone with someone in the bed with us. 

If my situation changes enough that I think I can benefit from everyone's invaluable help and advice, then I may come back, hat in hand, begging for advice again. But otherwise, I just need to give the above time to work. 

Thank you everyone for your support and advice. Best wishes and good luck to everyone. 


Copper


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I hope whatever happens you find happiness.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

DTO said:


> Hi Copper,
> 
> Your situation is on my mind lately, because it is similar to the dynamic in my marriage (which ended 5+ years ago). Based on those similarities and how my situation played out, I don't think you are correctly counting the costs of staying together.
> 
> ...


Good luck, Copper. In addition to AA plan, you should completely internalize the advice from DTO, which is quoted for its absolute truth. Read it over and over, 100 times if you must. As you disengage, these should be your answers if she were to ever challenge you. These are the sound bites you give her as a broken record, time and time again.

You deserve better, but only if you go out and make it happen. If you sit back and let life happen to you, this is what you are left with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You're quite right. My mistake. MOST are saying leave. Some are saying fight.
> 
> 
> 
> I stand corrected. My apologies for misrepresenting the truth.



Fighting is only worth it if you make her feel. Like you do - deprive her of her peace of mind and stability. Get even.

If fighting means arguing, don't bother.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> People don't like to admit it or think about it....especially the people going through it. But your best chance of achieving #3 is by doing #1. It's a wake up call, and your best shot. And honestly, if it doesn't wake her up to change, you're still better off.


It is certainly the most dramatic way, and will likely prompt the quickest change.

But best way? Maybe, maybe not. Anytime you change the way you think and behave, you will provoke some sort of reaction and shift the dynamic of the relationship. But you have to stick to it, and not slide back into your old habits and comfort zone.

And either way, there's no guarantee of "success", however you might define that term.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

My take is the lady in this story (C2) is not LD but actually has a boyfriend who is servicing his married BBW on a regular basis. Like said so many times on the Cheating Spouse forum, she won't have anything to do with old Copper because she looks at it as cheating on her boyfriend. I expect that will be revealed down the road when her picking a fight to get out of the house or coming in late is explained. I think she's out doing what our man Copper is doing without.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> You're quite right. My mistake. MOST are saying leave. Some are saying fight.
> 
> I stand corrected. My apologies for misrepresenting the truth.
> 
> ...


This is important. MOST people are saying leave or fight. NO ONE is saying stay and just accept it for what it is.

She needs to go to counseling or the "marriage" is over. I put marriage in pareenthesis because what your living in is not a real marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Workathome said:


> This is important. MOST people are saying leave or fight. NO ONE is saying stay and just accept it for what it is.
> 
> She needs to go to counseling or the "marriage" is over. I put marriage in pareenthesis because what your living in is not a real marriage.


[grammarnazi]You put marriage in quotations [/grammarnazi]


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> My take is the lady in this story (C2) is not LD but actually has a boyfriend who is servicing his married BBW on a regular basis. Like said so many times on the Cheating Spouse forum, she won't have anything to do with old Copper because she looks at it as cheating on her boyfriend. I expect that will be revealed down the road when her picking a fight to get out of the house or coming in late is explained. I think she's out doing what our man Copper is doing without.


You know, as unlikely as I think that this is; I would love for it to be true.

'Cause it might carry enough shock-value to blast Copper out of his indecision and comfort-zone.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> My take is the lady in this story (C2) is not LD but actually has a boyfriend who is servicing his married BBW on a regular basis. Like said so many times on the Cheating Spouse forum, she won't have anything to do with old Copper because she looks at it as cheating on her boyfriend. I expect that will be revealed down the road when her picking a fight to get out of the house or coming in late is explained. I think she's out doing what our man Copper is doing without.





intheory said:


> You know, as unlikely as I think that this is; I would love for it to be true.
> 
> 'Cause it might carry enough shock-value to blast Copper out of his indecision and comfort-zone.


Actually... I would like for this to be true as well. Because then she would be happy and I wouldn't feel like such a heel for how I'm going to start treating her.


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> My take is the lady in this story (C2) is not LD but actually has a boyfriend who is servicing his married BBW on a regular basis.


Only Copper can answer this, but true LD is tough to hide. 

Simple example: There was an SNL skit where Christopher Walken was a Confederate officer returning home. 

In the fake Southern drawl they were doing, "Colonel Angus" got morphed into "Cunninlingus" and the double entendres started flying. "It's wonderful to see your shiny face here at Shady Thicket...."

My wife; my youngest daughter and I were watching a "Best Of" compilation one evening and this skit came on. --Youngest daughter was with her first serious boyfriend at the time and she was rolling on the floor laughing. My wife didn't get it. Not one word of it. I had to explain to her why it was funny. And that's what two+ decades of not a single sexual thought in your head will do to you.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Only Copper can answer this, but true LD is tough to hide.
> 
> Simple example: There was an SNL skit where Christopher Walken was a Confederate officer returning home.
> 
> ...


How about when the racy scene comes on in a movie, that's when she decides to go to the bathroom or get popcorn. No, no, no need to stop. You can tell me what I missed.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Actually... I would like for this to be true as well. Because then she would be happy and I wouldn't feel like such a heel for how I'm going to start treating her.
> 
> 
> Copper


No need to feel like a heel. This is the wrong attitude. You are doing what needs to be done for own mental health and the rebuilding of your self-esteem.

Your needs are just as valid as hers. You have two decades of putting her first. No need to think less of yourself just because you no longer enable a disadvantagous one-way relationship. 

Again, read and re-read DTO's advice post from a couple pages back. Ideally, THAT is the new Copper.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> How about when the racy scene comes on in a movie, that's when she decides to go to the bathroom or get popcorn. No, no, no need to stop. You can tell me what I missed.
> 
> 
> Copper


That's not low drive, that's someone who has such a problem with sex that she wants to avoid any reference to it. A real low drive wouldn't even notice that a scene is racy.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> No need to feel like a heel. This is the wrong attitude. You are doing what needs to be done for own mental health and the rebuilding of your self-esteem.
> 
> Your needs are just as valid as hers. You have two decades of putting her first. No need to think less of yourself just because you no longer enable a disadvantagous one-way relationship.
> 
> Again, read and re-read DTO's advice post from a couple pages back. Ideally, THAT is the new Copper.


I know. It's just that it feels wrong to be so... cool. That's not what marriage supposed to be about.

Right now it's easy because she is still upset with me. But what about when she warms up again? I've never believed that two wrongs make a right, and it's hard for me because I don't do grudges.

But I did open new bank accounts today. Next week I will put through the paperwork to have my checks deposited there. In a couple of weeks, after the deposits are working smoothly, I will break the news that I have done so and start transferring my half of the expenses into what was our old checking account.

I remember telling Ann years ago that we would never do what I just did.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> That's not low drive, that's someone who has such a problem with sex that she wants to avoid any reference to it. A real low drive wouldn't even notice that a scene is racy.


That's a valid point, I suppose. I always assumed it was because she wasn't interested and if she went then, she wouldn't miss any of the rest of the movie.

I have the same reaction when the singing and dancing starts in a musical.


Copper


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> But I did open new bank accounts today. Next week I will put through the paperwork to have my checks deposited there. *In a couple of weeks, after the deposits are working smoothly, I will break the news that I have done so* and start transferring my half of the expenses into what was our old checking account.
> 
> 
> Copper


Good for you, Copper.

I am very interested in what her reaction will be when she finds out.

Watch your back.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

intheory said:


> You know, as unlikely as I think that this is; I would love for it to be true.
> 
> 'Cause it might carry enough shock-value to blast Copper out of his indecision and comfort-zone.


Look at what you have... lose in interest in Copper, Coming in late with no explanation, rejects sexually pleasing him (being loyal the her lover), picking fights in order to get out of the house, disappearing a few nights ago to parts unknown (that Copper admitted to).
If somebody wrote into the focused topic, _Coping with Infidelity_, about their foxy wife, and ask if these were red flags, what do you think the response would be? I believe Copper saying she's chubby throws a lot of people off, but a lot of guys have a thing for the big girls. 
I discovered long ago that just because a woman behaves like a cold fish to her old man, doesn't mean she not hot the trot with some other guy(s). Think about how many times you've see that before.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Look at what you have... lose in interest in Copper, Coming in late with no explanation, rejects sexually pleasing him (being loyal the her lover), picking fights in order to get out of the house, disappearing a few nights ago to parts unknown (that Copper admitted to).
> If somebody wrote into the focused topic, _Coping with Infidelity_, about their foxy wife, and ask if these were red flags, what do you think the response would be? I believe Copper saying she's chubby throws a lot of people off, but a lot of guys have a thing for the big girls.
> I discovered long ago that just because a woman behaves like a cold fish to her old man, doesn't mean she not hot the trot with some other guy(s). Think about how many times you've see that before.


It infuriates me that you might be right, however slim the chance... people suck.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

This reminds me of my 25 year marriage. 
She apparently didn't like sex either and I believed her. 

Five years ago she threw out me and the kids to have continued sex with a married man. 

Now.. I am with a woman who likes sex. I like it.

I am not sure what my ExW is doing. Frankly I barely care now.

The person I am most angry with is me. I allowed it to continue far too long. She just wasn't that in to me.

As painful as it is. Move forward and stop asking her to change.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> That's not low drive, that's someone who has such a problem with sex that she wants to avoid any reference to it. A real low drive wouldn't even notice that a scene is racy.


Could be out of a sense of guilt. I remember reading post on the coping with infidelity where some guys cheating wife blushed with embarrassment and criticized him when she caught him watching a mildly adult movie. In Copper's situation, I remember him saying how after picking a fight and leaving she basically offered herself to him. A cheating wife often does this as a way to ease her guilty conscience. When she came back the next day after a leaving, even Copper admitted he could sense the guilt. It starts to add up when you look at it.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I know. It's just that it feels wrong to be so... cool. That's not what marriage supposed to be about.
> 
> Right now it's easy because she is still upset with me. But what about when she warms up again? I've never believed that two wrongs make a right, and it's hard for me because I don't do grudges.



Yes, you are absolutely correct. Marriages are not supposed to be like this. But you are not in a marriage where the partners are on equal footing. She is more than willing to take and is more than willing to pull every trick in the book to get you to back down from requests to have her address your needs.

Your relationship is a marriage in name only. She will react negatively to your moves. After the way you've been treated for the past 20 years? So what? Tough beans, babe.

As Elenoar Roosevelt said, "People only treat us the way we allow them to treat us." Your partner has fallen short of the mark for decades. You're beginning to set some boundaries with meaningful consequences. Don't apologize for that. Take pride that someone in your house is finally putting consideration of your needs into the relationship dynamic. It should have been her. She can't do it. So, it needs to be you.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I could never live with a person who has called me an abuser and basically a perverted rapist. Oh you write well, but if I got the posts you'd see why I make this statement.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> You're beginning to set some boundaries with meaningful consequences.


I bet the fear she now feels is so overwhelming she started getting her act together yesterday.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Could be out of a sense of guilt. I remember reading post on the coping with infidelity where some guys cheating wife blushed with embarrassment and criticized him when she caught him watching a mildly adult movie.


I would say that you have to bait your hook to catch fish and if she were a woman very focused on diet, exercise, stylish clothes, etc. I might agree. That's not what I'm "seeing" based on Copper's description though.

What's more, I believe Copper has said he's in I.T. which makes it very, very hard for a non-technical spouse to hide anything.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I thought Eleanor Roosevelt said, "People cannot make us feel inferior without our consent." Big difference. One gives control to other people; one keeps our power with us.

Copper, trying to control other people is usually a losing battle. Taking charge of your life and happiness keeps all the control in your hands.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> My take is the lady in this story (C2) is not LD but actually has a boyfriend who is servicing his married BBW on a regular basis. Like said so many times on the Cheating Spouse forum, she won't have anything to do with old Copper because she looks at it as cheating on her boyfriend. I expect that will be revealed down the road when her picking a fight to get out of the house or coming in late is explained. I think she's out doing what our man Copper is doing without.


The speculation of her having an affair is fun, but it is highly unlikely. I almost wish it were true because then I would know she would be/could be happy. 

I don't relish the thought, but if she were happier with someone else, I would let her go and wish her well.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I could never live with a person who has called me an abuser and basically a perverted rapist. Oh you write well, but if I got the posts you'd see why I make this statement.


I understand, but she only does things like that when she is lashing out at me. 

If you were sensitive on a subject, and I just kept pushing at you about it, if you finally took a swing at me over it, whose fault is it, really?

One could argue that had I not kept badgering you about it, you wouldn't have tried to punch my lights out.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jld said:


> I thought Eleanor Roosevelt said, "People cannot make us feel inferior without our consent." Big difference. One gives control to other people; one keeps our power with us.
> 
> Copper, trying to control other people is usually a losing battle. Taking charge of your life and happiness keeps all the control in your hands.


I agree with your sentiments. But on the other hand, I can acknowledge that in a few more days, when she begins to warm up to me again, I am not going to be treating her as I feel I should. I'm going to be playing the part of the careless ass, and I don't like that role. 

I'm quite certain that when I start pushing her away she isn't going to like it and she will once again pull back from me. I have always been there for her in the past, waiting for her to get over her mad. This time I won't be.

I'm very afraid that this will be the cut that won't heal. If she make the first move to reconcile, but I reject her, what motive does she have to continue to try?


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> I bet the fear she now feels is so overwhelming she started getting her act together yesterday.


No change so far. I ate alone last night. She is still sleeping in the other room. 

I suspect that probably tomorrow she will move back into our bedroom. Today and tomorrow we will all eat together, but for a few days next week, I will be eating alone again. This game is so old I know the routine by heart. It doesn't even bother me, and hasn't for some time. I'm just waiting her out.

After that? So long as I don't bring up our lack of intimacy, at some point she will want me to hold her again. In the past I would "take her back" and everything would be okay until I decided to poke and prod her again. 

This little play still has a few days/weeks to run before she will see the change. Then? I have no real idea what will happen. I'm just fairly certain that it won't be pleasant.


Copper


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I agree with your sentiments. But on the other hand, I can acknowledge that in a few more days, when she begins to warm up to me again, I am not going to be treating her as I feel I should. I'm going to be playing the part of the careless ass, and I don't like that role.
> 
> I'm quite certain that when I start pushing her away she isn't going to like it and she will once again pull back from me. I have always been there for her in the past, awaiting for her to get over her mad. This time I won't be.
> 
> ...


Why would you accept to treat her in a way that doesn't make you feel good about yourself? 

I have not read all of your thread, but I hope you are not letting the advice you get here definitively determine your path. Consult a specialist (counselor) for that. 

She probably _won't_ have any reason to try, if she feels rejected enough.

Be careful, Copper. No one here is a professional counselor, or at least is your own personal professional counselor. No one knows enough details of your situation to be giving you advice you should follow to the letter, especially if it is punitive in nature.

"First, do no harm."


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jld said:


> Why would you accept to treat her in a way that doesn't make you feel good about yourself?
> 
> I have not read all of your thread, but I hope you are not letting the advice you get here definitively determine your path. Consult a specialist (counselor) for that.
> 
> ...


I know and understand. But it is also true that doing what I have been doing isn't working. The suggestion that I am following is to give her what she asks for. If you distill what she asks for down to its most basic, she wants a good friend and roommate. 

I intend to fill that role. Will it make any difference? I have no idea. All I can do is try. Perhaps she will be perfectly content with me in that role. 

And she isn't the one making me feel back about myself. I'M the one making me feel bad about myself. I don't want a friend and roommate, and I don't enjoy the thought of treating her as one.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

The worst part of this? I'm not sleeping well, 2-3 hours a night since I started this thread. 

I also feel isolated. C2 is normally the person I turn to when I feel the need to talk, but I can't this time, and I have no one else. Ann is a good friend, but extending that friendship beyond the working relationship we have now doesn't strike me as a good idea. I don't want her husband, or my wife, to get the wrong idea. Her husband would gut me like a deer. 

All my other friends are busy with their own families, and I don't feel comfortable talking about this with them anyway. What's the old saying? "If you burden your friends with your problem, soon you won't have any." Something like that.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> That's not what I'm "seeing" based on Copper's description though.
> 
> What's more, I believe Copper has said he's in I.T. which makes it very, very hard for a non-technical spouse to hide anything.


Not if they have enough sense to stay off the phone, or at least use a burner, and off the internet. Most are caught through friggin text messages and email. A female handler told me nearly thirty years ago to never allow "clients" to put anything in writing or worse, doing it yourself.

And Copper, you've got a gold mine of resources in Ann. She has friends she can set you up with. What do you think she meant when she told you she'd be glad to introduce you around if you were single? She was fishing.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I know and understand. But it is also true that doing what I have been doing isn't working. The suggestion that I am following is to give her what she asks for. If you distill what she asks for down to its most basic, she wants a good friend and roommate.
> 
> I intend to fill that role. Will it make any difference? I have no idea. All I can do is try. Perhaps she will be perfectly content with me in that role.
> 
> And she isn't the one making me feel back about myself. I'M the one making me feel bad about myself. I don't want a friend and roommate, and I don't enjoy the thought of treating her as one.



I dunno, Copper. I've had lots of friends and roommates in my day, and while I didn't get along with all of them, I was quite friendly with most. This included talking honestly about how I felt, what I was anxious about, what was on my mind.

While I know I was one who said that I would be inclined to respond to her game by playing along, I'm really not a big fan of game playing. In the end, it can do much more harm than good if she just sees you pulling away and assumes it's just because you've decided to hate her.

At some point, she needs to see what's really going on in your head.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I dunno, Copper. I've had lots of friends and roommates in my day, and while I didn't get along with all of them, I was quite friendly with most. This included talking honestly about how I felt, what I was anxious about, what was on my mind.
> 
> While I know I was one who said that I would be inclined to respond to her game by playing along, I'm really not a big fan of game playing. In the end, it can do much more harm than good if she just sees you pulling away and assumes it's just because you've decided to hate her.
> 
> At some point, she needs to see what's really going on in your head.


Perhaps, then, I didn't understand your suggestion. You suggested I give her what she is asking for. 

From where I stand, what she appears to be asking for is more than a roommate, but less than a relationship. She wants me to hold her and tell her it will be okay and do things for her that I wouldn't necessarily do for a friend. She wants me to be the loving and dutiful husband, up to the point of being physically intimate. 

So, that is what I intend to give her, to a point. I'm tired of living in the limbo between friend and lover. I can't seem to pull her into lover, so I will move to friend. And I will try to be the best possible friend and roommate that I can.

But to be a roommate requires me to pull back from her some. To not welcome her at the door with a kiss and a hug. To not snuggle with her at night. To not do things for her that I do because she is more than a friend. 

I will still be pleasant to her. I will still speak to her, and civilly so. I will do the things that I do now, such as laundry and house cleaning, that I would do with any roommate. 

But if I go the next step, and act as I was acting before, we are right back where we started. She will be content and I will once again be stuck in limbo.

I'm not trying to play mind game. When you suggested this course of action, it sounded like perhaps the best chance to reach an equilibrium where I don't wreck our marriage but she still see's that something has to changed. If this isn't what you meant, I haven't done anything that out of the ordinary so it is not too late to change course and have her be none the wiser.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Not if they have enough sense to stay off the phone, or at least use a burner, and off the internet. Most are caught through friggin text messages and email. A female handler told me nearly thirty years ago to never allow "clients" to put anything in writing or worse, doing it yourself.
> 
> And Copper, you've got a gold mine of resources in Ann. She has friends she can set you up with. What do you think she meant when she told you she'd be glad to introduce you around if you were single? She was fishing.


Perhaps you're right. But there is one major problem. I'm not single.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

It ain't a major problem tween consenting adults who understand each others limitations. And you said above, you and your old lady are little more than roommates. Why should you do without because she chooses to? It ain't like you're giving someone else what she's wanting and should be getting. And the way you've been putting it, she will likely welcome you leaving her alone about what she's not willing to provide. Its a win/win.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> It ain't a major problem tween consenting adults who understand each others limitations. And you said above, you and your old lady are little more than roommates. Why should you do without because she chooses to? It ain't like you're giving someone else what she's wanting and should be getting. And the way you've been putting it, she will likely welcome you leaving her alone about what she's not willing to provide. Its a win/win.


I can't see C2 agreeing to an open marriage and I'm not going to break my promise. I don't consider trading my honor for womanly comforts a good trade.

Hopefully if I'm no longer standing there with open arms, welcoming her back as if nothing happened, she will realize the dynamics of our relationship has to change. And if not? Then it will be just a matter of hanging in there.

I can always go back to the way we were, which was mostly tolerable if not ideal, and take comfort in the fact that I'm not having to deal with the issues those poor souls are in the infidelity, financial and addiction forums are.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

If not standing there with open arms will help, a little competition will put it on steroids. Besides, would it really hurt to tell her since she's not into the loving part, would she mind it if you "see" other women and you promise to keep it casual and no more than friends with benefits. What's she going to do....call you a sexual deviate? Best case is she may tell you to go ahead as long as you keep it casual. 
I was once engaged by a man, who was no longer interested in his wife, to entertain her while he play golf and hunted birds in south Georgia. He didn't want a divorce because her family financed their lifestyle and the circles he traveled in but was tired of her nagging about his lack of interest. It was more to it than just sex but she was willing to accept a substitute to spend time with. Nobody looked at it a cheating, or violating honor. It was a deal that made both of them happy. To this day, I don't see anything wrong with it. Hey, it ain't going to hurt to give it a try.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Hey, it ain't going to hurt to give it a try.


I'll keep it in mind... but that will be my absolute last option.

Thanks.


Copper


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> All my other friends are busy with their own families, and I don't feel comfortable talking about this with them anyway. *What's the old saying? "If you burden your friends with your problem, soon you won't have any." *Something like that.
> 
> 
> Copper


Copper,

That sounds wrong. I suppose if you burden _acquaintances_ with your problems, they would disappear.

But sharing a burden with a friend is a hallmark of friendship. As long as they can share theirs with you; and you also share your good times with them.

See, how even people who are your "friends" are not allowed to give to you?


But, I am still curious about why your wife married you.


She thinks sex is disgusting.

She knows marriage includes sex - more than 2x a year (she knows that too, btw)

She gets married.

Why? Have you ever asked her straight-up. "If sex is disgusting, why did you get married? That doesn't make sense"


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I think that few LD's (or sex averse people) think about it ahead of time. The pluses of marriage, financial as well as social, trump the concept of sex. Then when the novelty of social and financial rewards of marriage become ho hum, sex is the enemy and hello LD.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

You are going to stay stuck in the same patterns with your wife if you keep thinking with the same mentality. In other words, you are so concerned with doing things "right", honor and making everyone in your life happy. You don't want anyone in your life to feel that you have needs or concerns. Confiding in friends is not a burden to them, if it is they are not your friend. You should not feel ashamed to ask for help.

Right now, your wife is not able or willing to go through the difficult process of healing herself from shame and self-loathing. You are the one who came to these boards to ask for help. Doesn't matter if your problem is smaller in comparison to other couples, you still have a problem no matter what the size. TAMers are trying to help you, please listen and take what they are saying to heart, and stop being so afraid of your wife and her reactions to what you do or say. Take leadership, she will appreciate you for it.

Assert your needs, own your needs, live your truth. If you start to do this your wife will hopefully find the courage to learn from your example.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> But, I am still curious about why your wife married you.
> 
> 
> She thinks sex is disgusting.
> ...


It wasn't like this in the beginning. In the beginning, we were normal. I would have liked to had more, but we were intimate 2-3 times a week. I knew she had a few hangups, but she was active and involved in our love making. I thought as we grew closer, those quirks would begin to fall to the side, but if they didn't, that was okay too. 

It was only after the first pregnancy, then especially the second, that it all changed. I don't know why. I've tried to find out. I've tried to get professional help to find out. 

After the second pregnancy, it was like she was a different woman when it came to sex. She was never wild or adventuresome before, but she was never like this. 

Before she enjoyed being touched. She would allow me to kiss her, to really kiss her, and she would kiss me in return. She would allow me to touch and explore, but mostly she was THERE, not where ever she goes now, when her face is vacant, when she just lies there until she is overtaken by her rapture. Before she would hold my face and look into my eyes, she would smile and whisper to me, not turn her lips away to prevent me from kissing her.

Had she always been this way, we probably wouldn't have married. But she wasn't. She will probably never be as open and adventuresome as some here, but if I could just have back the woman I married, I wouldn't ask for more.


Copper


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

I think that Copper never bothered his wife for sex much, he knew she was LD. What newlywed couple has sex only twice a week? This is the most sex he has had, and she never touched his pen!s. He never asserted his needs to her, so she married him thinking he was going to stay that way. And for 20 years she was right. He towed the line, never made too much trouble lest she become angry.

Only now he starts to assert himself. Some HDs marry thinking that things will get better in the sex department, even though they don't ever assert that they have a high desire of sex. The LD marries them thinking that he is different from the other horn dog men who were only after one thing.

Copper, I have a feeling that your wife married you because of this.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

> It wasn't like this in the beginning. In the beginning, we were normal. I would have liked to had more, but we were intimate 2-3 times a week. I knew she had a few hangups, but she was active and involved in our love making. I thought as we grew closer, those quirks would begin to fall to the side, but if they didn't, that was okay too.


You answered my question here. Most of the time when we start a relationship we hope that the things we don't like about our partner will fade away and the good things will stay.

Not often the case I'm afraid.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> I think that few LD's (or sex averse people) think about it ahead of time. The pluses of marriage, financial as well as social, trump the concept of sex. Then when the novelty of social and financial rewards of marriage become ho hum, sex is the enemy and hello LD.


Very logical; utterly perverse.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

techmom said:


> I think that Copper never bothered his wife for sex much, he knew she was LD. What newlywed couple has sex only twice a week? This is the most sex he has had, and she never touched his pen!s. He never asserted his needs to her, so she married him thinking he was going to stay that way. And for 20 years she was right. He towed the line, never made too much trouble lest she become angry.
> 
> Only now he starts to assert himself. Some HDs marry thinking that things will get better in the sex department, even though they don't ever assert that they have a high desire of sex. The LD marries them thinking that he is different from the other horn dog men who were only after one thing.
> 
> Copper, I have a feeling that your wife married you because of this.


I'm not greedy. If we could get back to where we were, I would be happy. In the beginning, I might have wanted 5-7 times a week, but I was getting 2-3. I could compromise. 

I might not have been getting fat, but I could live. But now... now I'm starving. If I'm going to have to starve, then so be it. But before I do, I want to make sure I have no other choice.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Techmom brings up an interesting thought that I hadn't considered before. 

When we were married I traveled. I traveled a lot. I was gone something like 200 days a year. I would fly in, spend a few days in town, then fly out again. I might be gone for two or three months at a time. 

So when I was home, it would only be for 2, 3, sometimes 4 days at a time. We were already engaged when I took this new job. It promised a LOT more money than I was making before and I was planning for the future. 

Two weeks before we were to be married, she fell down the steps at her parents home. It was almost four months before we consummated our marriage become of the broken bones that prevented us from doing anything on the honeymoon, then scheduling.

I wonder now, if she was always this way and I didn't notice because of the scheduling. When I left that job, we relocated to NC, mainly because I no longer wanted to travel and wanted to spend more time at home. Not long after that, less than two years, she became pregnant. 

Doesn't change anything, but it is one of those things that makes you go, Hmmmm.


Coppper


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I'm not greedy. If we could get back to where we were, I would be happy. In the beginning, *I might have wanted 5-7 times a week, but I was getting 2-3*. I could compromise.
> 
> I might not have been getting fat, but I could live. But now... now I'm starving. If I'm going to have to starve, then so be it. But before I do, I want to make sure I have no other choice.
> 
> ...


Ok, so from the beginning you knew that the frequency was less than what you wanted, did you ever initiate for more? Maybe if you would have she would have known back then that you was high drive. But you kept quiet and this might have led her to believe that this was enough for you and that you didn't desire more.

Also, traveling in the beginning of the relationship gave you a false normal, you didn't know your true HD because you were away. She didn't feel put upon, and you had to make due with what you got.

But still, most newly weds go at it multiple times a day when they are together. I know my hubby and I did...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> 5'5" and 280-300 pounds ...
> The doctor has told her she is going to die in 5 years (now three) if she doesn't get the weight off.


Well there's that...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

techmom said:


> Ok, so from the beginning you knew that the frequency was less than what you wanted, did you ever initiate for more? Maybe if you would have she would have known back then that you was high drive. But you kept quiet and this might have led her to believe that this was enough for you and that you didn't desire more.
> 
> Also, traveling in the beginning of the relationship gave you a false normal, you didn't know your true HD because you were away. She didn't feel put upon, and you had to make due with what you got.
> 
> But still, most newly weds go at it multiple times a day when they are together. I know my hubby and I did...


I knew. I knew from the beginning that I wanted more than she could give. Several times a day? Forget it. Even before we were married I knew she wasn't interested in that. But I could live with that, so I suppressed it and didn't pressure her for more than she was willing to give. 

I ask, but I never, ever, pressure. I can compromise. I don't have to have everything I want and can still be content. 


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Perhaps, then, I didn't understand your suggestion. You suggested I give her what she is asking for.
> 
> From where I stand, what she appears to be asking for is more than a roommate, but less than a relationship. She wants me to hold her and tell her it will be okay and do things for her that I wouldn't necessarily do for a friend. She wants me to be the loving and dutiful husband, up to the point of being physically intimate.
> 
> ...


You got to be feeling like a ping pong ball with this thread. We tell you one thing and then say something different. I am guilty of this myself. The problem with forums like this is:

1. We are not professionals (as has been pointed out a couple times already)
2. You give us a little information on your relationship - we respond to that info based on how it strikes us which is based on our own experiences. Then you respond back, giving us a little more info - which makes us look at it a little different and perhaps changes what direction we think you should go, or confirms what we were already thinking - so we respond further changing our view point or reinforcing the one we already had. And this goes on and on - you respond with a little more - we respond to that addition - sometimes flip flopping around, sometimes standing firm in our advice. 
3. Since all posters here have different life experiences that color how we receive the info you write - we all respond slightly different - or very different - and even opposite of each other in some cases. So the advice can be quite confusing. 
4. Often the person seeking help starts drifting towards those who respond with advice they are most comfortable with or see value in. If the threads go on long enough they start to build a bit of trust in those responders. But then some info comes out that stumps those people, and even they seem to be at a loss as what course is best, which leaves the original poster feeling even more confused and lost than when he first started posting. 

It seems to me that perhaps this is the point you are at now. 

Quite frankly - and I have already said this many times, I believe your requires professional help. Your wife and you have some serious issues here. And from everything you have said over and over - you do not want to ruin your relationship (whatever that is at this point) with your wife, and you are also not willing to leave this marriage at this point. At one point, I was hoping your goal was to get her to go to counseling with you. At this point, I am not sure what your goal is anymore.

Every course of action you take to end the dysfunctional cycles results in your wife performing her usual routine (one that you know by heart now) to get you back to where she wants you and where she is comfortable with your behavior. And it works well, very well. You always back down - and even with this new plan you are backing down again - maybe to a lesser degree - but still backing down. 

If your original plan was to get her to do some good faith changing on her own or if she could not do that - then to go to counseling with you - I am curious - why not just stay with that same plan - why do you feel that her expected behavior of fighting change - should change that plan? There was nothing unreasonable in what you were asking her to do. You were not even asking for sex at all - unless she wanted to take it there. 

I think you have lost sight or were not clear in your head of your original goal. And when she got *****y - you got worried. Why? Because as uncomfortable and unhappy as you are because of the lack of sex - you are way more uncomfortable and unhappy with the ideal of losing your wife and your marriage. When she gets *****y - you start projecting that you will lose her and the marriage. You have expressed this fact over and over. (Things weren't that bad...it was tolerable...every other area is good...she is the one I am comfortable talking out my problems with...etc, etc.)

This will be my last piece of advise on your thread - because I came to help - and at this point, I don't believe any of us are helping you in the least bit, and in fact, I think we are now making things worse for you with your wife, which is making you even more unhappy than you were before. 

So here is my last piece of advice. Leave this thread - and go get professional help. Seek help to figure out what you really want out of your marriage - what you can an can not live with to be happy - and then to formulate a plan to become happy with your life. Until you figure out in your own head and in your own heart what you really want and need - you can not implement a workable plan and carry it out to get there. 

Good Luck and take care. You deserve to be happy. Please don't forget that fact!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

One more post - to clarify...

I was not saying forums like this can not be helpful. I think they can be very helpful in many ways to many people. But sometimes they are not always helpful to everyone and can actually make things worse for some. 

Some people find writing out their problems and having to explain them to others helps them clarify them in their own mind which helps them understand things better. Some read experiences and advice from other people which spurs them identify the solutions or course of action they personally need to take - and often the solution or course of action was not what was suggested. Some seek comfort and empathy from others and find they feel better to know others have walked in similar shoes and survived, even coming out of it better. And some come here looking for help, however they soon recognize that their problems go deeper than they can handle and that lay people can help them with - and quickly figure out they need to seek professional help instead. 

TAM and other forums can be very helpful - just not for every situation - and not to everyone that comes for help. Hopefully, the person seeking help can quickly decide which one it is for their situation (helpful - or not helpful) and then act accordingly if necessary.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

If your wife is 5'5" and 300 lbs, then it's pretty obvious why she has no libido. Your wife is sick, and she's not thinking straight. I'd consider refocusing all your efforts into getting her into healthy eating, exercise and weight loss. Everything else hinges on that IMHO.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'll keep it in mind... but that will be my absolute last option.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ...


Copp, think about it like this. What if the roles were reversed, it was you that lost interest the physical side of your relationship, would you really mind if she found fulfillment with a NSA gentleman as long as she came back to you? If you really cared about her happiness, why would you want to stand in the way of that if its you with the problem? She wouldn't be taking anything from you that you wanted. She would still love only you.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> It was only *after the first pregnancy, then especially the second, that it all changed.* I don't know why. I've tried to find out. I've tried to get professional help to find out.
> 
> After the second pregnancy, it was like she was a different woman when it came to sex. She was never wild or adventuresome before, but she was never like this.


Has your wife recently had a complete physical? She doesn't have tumors (benign) on her ovaries, or anything like that, right?

Did she go back on hormonal birth control after the babies?

The hormonal turmoil of pregnancy, hormonal birth control(?) and massive weight gain will definitely play a significant role in all of this.

But we go back to the fact that your wife has to see that these are all factors; and she needs to get a thorough check up.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> It wasn't like this in the beginning. In the beginning, we were normal. I would have liked to had more, but we were intimate 2-3 times a week. I knew she had a few hangups, but she was active and involved in our love making. I thought as we grew closer, those quirks would begin to fall to the side, but if they didn't, that was okay too.
> 
> Copper


This is where you need to rethink your thinking. Your sexual intimacy with your wife was never normal. She has never touched your pen8s. That is not normal. While I understand some people are averse to oral sex, they will usually give it a go a few times to see what all the talk is about. She never did that. I think you have played by her rules from day one, and after this long, she thinks this is normal because you have let it go this far for this long.

I'm just curious, did you and C2 wait until marriage to have sex?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> You got to be feeling like a ping pong ball with this thread.


Some, but probably not as much as you might think. There have been two schools of thought throughout. 

1) Leave her. Pack my bags and get out.
2) Stay and try to fix the problem.

I rejected #1 out of hand.

After selecting my path, there were once again two schools of thought.

1) Deliver an ultimatum. If things don't change, leave
2) Change myself and she will adapt. 

Once again, I reject #1. While I understand the logic behind the suggestion, that isn't the path I want to follow. I believe that path leads to the same place as option 1 in my first choice.

Now it gets a bit murkier. There has been lots of advice, but not all of it has been completely clear. Additionally, a sizable percentage of it I have already tried.

In the past, when C2 and I have come into conflict and I am where I am now, I have always chosen the path that leads me back to where we have always been. I will call that path lover. C2 likes this path, but we always seem to stall before we reach the end of the path, which is a normal, healthy sexual relationship.

This time, I am going to chose the other path, the one I will call friend. If she doesn't want me as a normal husband and lover, perhaps she will prefer me as a close and personal friend. 

Honestly, I hope she doesn't like this. I'm hoping this time she will come to me and seek change. The only thing I am hoping for is she will realize that things have to change and will, at the very lest, agree to marriage counseling. 

If she doesn't seek change, if she doesn't try to move us off the path of friendship, then the choice becomes, am I willing to live with her as just a friend or not? 

To be honest, I don't know the answer to that question at the moment. Today, as I type this, I would say no, I am not. But as I adjust to the new role, who knows. Maybe at that point, C2 and I will realize we are not meant to be together and can go our separate ways. Or perhaps, to use MEM's term, I outsource. 

I just don't know, and I don't suspect I will know until the choice is actually before me.

But no matter how it all plays out, I am still grateful to all that have taken the time to read and post. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If your wife is 5'5" and 300 lbs, then it's pretty obvious why she has no libido. Your wife is sick, and she's not thinking straight. I'd consider refocusing all your efforts into getting her into healthy eating, exercise and weight loss. Everything else hinges on that IMHO.


I've tried. I've been trying for years to help her. But I can't do it for her. She has to want to do it herself. 

I will address this in a bit more detail in answer to another suggestion below.


Copper


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I can't imagine her not choosing to be just friends. She'll get everything she wants. She doesn't lose.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Copp, think about it like this. What if the roles were reversed, it was you that lost interest the physical side of your relationship, would you really mind if she found fulfillment with a NSA gentleman as long as she came back to you? If you really cared about her happiness, why would you want to stand in the way of that if its you with the problem? She wouldn't be taking anything from you that you wanted. She would still love only you.


I know. And if the situation were reversed, I wouldn't have a problem with. In fact, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it now.

But she isn't me.

About 10 years ago, I realized that if I didn't make some changes, my kids could very well be orphaned. My father, and his father before him, died at a very early age because of heart failure. C2 was doing nothing to take care of herself, so if we both died young, they would be left without either parent. Plus, if I got myself into better shape, perhaps she would be more receptive to my advances. It was a win/win for me.

So C2 and I agreed to start getting ourselves in better shape. I didn't tell why I suddenly decided that I wanted to start taking care of myself because of concerns over her reaction. If I told her I was trying to make myself more appealing, that could be taken wrong, and she would certainly see any comment about her weight in a negative light. So without going into lot of details about why, I invited to start the adventure with me.

Within a month or so, she quit. But I continued on. I dropped about 20 pounds, but I began to tone up. And she noticed. But, a couple of years into it, when I was looking better than I had looked, maybe ever, she accused me of having an affair. 

In her mind, that was the only possible reason I was doing what I was doing. She wouldn't believe that I did it for her and myself. No. There was another woman involved.

Fast forward to a year ago. I was working my ass off, trying to bring a project that was running late in on time. All the extra hours, the late nights and weekends? It didn't illicit sympathy or support. No, it got me another accusation of having an affair. That is when I pulled the plug. 

I stopped initiating and basically told her when she was ready, she knew where I was. 

Now, I find out, that because I wasn't chasing her, that was proof I was getting it from somewhere else. That little fact popped up just in the last couple of weeks, when I started pushing back.

So... as you can see, I don't think she is going to be very open to my having female friends. Even if I keep it completely on the up-and-up. It is just going to add complications to an already difficult situation. 

The other concern, as I mentioned before, is that it has now been 13 months. On the off chance an attractive woman were to offer herself to me, I'm not sure I would have the will to back away. If I didn't back away, then I will have proven she was right about me all along. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be the person she accuses me of being.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Some, but probably not as much as you might think. There have been two schools of thought throughout.
> 
> 1) Leave her. Pack my bags and get out.
> 2) Stay and try to fix the problem.
> ...


If this is your plan, I wish you success with it. However, I suspect you will have a harder time with it than she will. 

I would strongly suggest you tell her this new course of action and the reason behind it - that she has made it clear she wants nothing to do with a husband lover. I would also clearly lay out the rules of engagement - meaning no touching at all. For this to work you need to be totally hands off - no hugging or touching of any kind - even being emotionally friendly with her in times of her need. None at all. Just explain that you lover her and desire being with her and touching her but not allowing anything to go further is too hard for you as a man. Don't add any more and don't keep explaining it. Just stand your ground at all times. Trust me - you will soon see major crisis after crisis that has her in tears to get you back to where she wants you. Giver her friendly empathy with words - but no more.

And again - continue with counseling. They may have a better and more effective plan. If they don't, you can always go back to this one for you sanity sake.

Good Luck and be happy!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Has your wife recently had a complete physical? She doesn't have tumors (benign) on her ovaries, or anything like that, right?


She has had a physical. She has one every year. I don't know if they go into that much detail. 





intheory said:


> Did she go back on hormonal birth control after the babies?


No. She had her tubes tied. She nearly died during the second pregnancy because her blood pressure got so high, and she nearly took our child with her. She spent the last month of the pregnancy, first in bed at home, then in the hospital, as the doctors tried to help her hang on until the child as developed enough so they could take him. He was born VERY premature and spent weeks in ICU in the hospital. 

It was a scary three or four month toward the end of her pregnancy, and a tough four or five years afterwards because of his health issues. 





intheory said:


> The hormonal turmoil of pregnancy, hormonal birth control(?) and massive weight gain will definitely play a significant role in all of this.
> 
> But we go back to the fact that your wife has to see that these are all factors; and she needs to get a thorough check up.


I agree, and I've tried to help her. But I can't do it for her. She has to want to do it herself.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Sbrown said:


> I can't imagine her not choosing to be just friends. She'll get everything she wants. She doesn't lose.


That is a fear of mine as well. What she would loose are the hugs and kisses, the warmth and affection that I give her now. 

But she might very well decide the trade-off is worth it.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> This is where you need to rethink your thinking. Your sexual intimacy with your wife was never normal. She has never touched your pen8s. That is not normal. While I understand some people are averse to oral sex, they will usually give it a go a few times to see what all the talk is about. She never did that. I think you have played by her rules from day one, and after this long, she thinks this is normal because you have let it go this far for this long.
> 
> I'm just curious, did you and C2 wait until marriage to have sex?


No. But we were separated by a fair number of miles throughout most of our dating, so I only saw her on weekends. We only had the opportunity to be intimate one night during the weekend because she had a roommate. 

Her car was a complete pile of crap, so I generally went to her. When we were physical the first time, I drove down and brought her back to my place. We went several times then... something like very late Friday/early Saturday, Saturday night, then again Sunday morning before I took her home.

Everything seemed perfectly normal, given our circumstances.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> If this is your plan, I wish you success with it. However, I suspect you will have a harder time with it than she will.


I suspect you are right. But you, more or less, laid out my plan. I just have to wait for her to make the first move so when she asks about it, I can explain it to her.

Never in my life have I ever been such a <censored> and I am not looking forward to being one now.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sbrown said:


> I can't imagine her not choosing to be just friends. She'll get everything she wants. She doesn't lose.



3) make her life a little less convenient, less happy, less stable, add a pinch of stress, mix in a healthy dose of indifference, stir and simmer. Serve multiple times daily.

Edit: nobody likes being a <censored> but nobody likes root canals either.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> That is a fear of mine as well. What she would loose are the hugs and kisses, the warmth and affection that I give her now.
> 
> But she might very well decide the trade-off is worth it.
> 
> ...


This may well be the end result. However she is not stupid. She will offer you sex and may even muster a little passion in order to seduce you back to where she wants you first. Given your state now I think she has a good chance of succeeding. 

You will need to decide if once or two nights of sex are worth returning to where you are now - because I guarantee the sex will not continue once she has you reeled back in.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> On the off chance an attractive woman were to offer herself to me, I'm not sure I would have the will to back away. If I didn't back away, then I will have proven she was right about me all along. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be the person she accuses me of being.
> Copper


She is right about you to a great extent, viz., you want a little poon tang once and awhile. Ain't nothing wrong with that and you'd be abnormal if you didn't feel that way. My 91 year old widowed FIL likes to see his current 88 year old girlfriend ever so often, if you know what I mean. You can't forget you're a man, my man. You ain't gaining a hell of a lot by trying to be the strange, abnormal man she's led you to become, just to satisfy her weird and extraordinary views of life. 
The reason youre here is your sick of being relegated to no more than her go-for and half of you wants someone to talk some sense into the other half. You know I'm right. If another chick offers, take her up on it. Believe me, you'll feel better. 
I'm going back to "Call of Duty, Ghost" now. These cats have me pinned down in the jungle and I'm trying to meet back up with my team.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> My 91 year old widowed FIL likes to see his current 88 year old girlfriend ever so often, if you know what I mean. You can't forget you're a man, my man.


I like this a lot.

I didn't think your desire for intimacy is going to go away. I don't think a band aid is going to help (you guys going back to how it was, 2x a month and not anywhere near a mutual experience). This needs to be solved. Not shoved down.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I suspect you are right. But you, more or less, laid out my plan. I just have to wait for her to make the first move so when she asks about it, I can explain it to her.
> 
> Never in my life have I ever been such a <censored> and I am not looking forward to being one now.
> 
> ...


You have to change this thinking. It will keep you from doing what you need to do. 

First of all - you are NOT being a ....! Stop looking at it that way. You are offering her a peaceful truce for the sake of your children and for the sake of your sanity. This is what she has indicated she wanted. 

You are simply responding to what she showed you she wants this past week - not to be touched or held, etc. You went through one week of simply asking her to be willing to touch, cuddles and talk. She not only refused to follow through with that - she punished you for doing it. SHE has showed you clearly - she does not want that - even if there is no sex. This is what you tell her in your explanation. You tell her - this is NOT what you want. You want to be her husband in every way allowed. But she does not want that - has showed you time and time again for 20 years, she does not want you as a husband - and clearly reinforced that desire this past week again. So you are giving her what she wants. A HANDS OFF friend, a roommate, a father to your children. Nothing more - nothing less. 

This is what I would explain very clearly to her if I were you:

You have come to a firm conclusion and have resolved that the husband/wife relationship between you two has to be all or nothing. It is just painful and hurtful both physically and emotionally to you to hug her and touch her and not be allowed more. You love her, you desire her, and you want her to love you and desire you too. You want to be her husband - to shower love and devotion on her, to have both of you express your love openly and freely both emotionally and physically. That is what marriage is in your mind. You are sorry if she can not understand that and if she does not agree with it - but it is how you feel, non-the less. So because she clearly does not want that kind of relationship - made it clear that she does not even enjoy touching him - non sexually - you will no longer consider yourself her husband - but just a good friend who happens to be raising two wonderful kids together. And that will be how you relate to her from now on.

Then you give her the one out - SHOULD she conclude that this is not what she really wants - you are more than willing to go to counseling with her to get help on fixing the marriage so that you both can be happy and have a real husband wife relationship - both emotionally and physically. Again - in your mind it has to be all or nothing. You are no longer willing to be a husband emotionally if you can not also enjoy the full physical part of being a husband too. 

H O W E V E R - and emphasize this clearly and slowly - should she decide you wants the husband/wife relationship again - you will no longer be the only one working on the marriage - and you are no longer willing to settle for a partial marriage. You are only staying married (meaning not filing for a divorce) and staying in the house at this time for the sake of the kids. That is the only reason. You will treat her kindly and respectfully as you would any other human being and close friend. You are only willing to be a husband - if you can be one in every way. 

IF SHE changes her mind and decides she wants you as a husband again, SHE HAS the power to make that happen. BUT she has to show you she is willing to go to counseling with you AND put in 100% effort in to the counseling in order to try to fix the marriage. UNTIL she has shown you that 100% effort long enough that you trust she finally is as committed to being a real husband and wife as you are - the FRIENDLY handsoff truce will remain in effect and will be strictly enforced until the kids are raised and out of the house. Then you will further explore all your options at that time if things are still the same as now. 

I would explain this slowly and very clearly if I were you. If she tries to sidetrack, derail, accuse you, throw a tantrum, or anything else. You simply state calmly and quietly that you are talking and she needs to listen carefully. IF she still continues to stop the conversation, you state you will talk further when she is ready to listen to you and you walk away - and stay away until she approaches you and shows she IS willing to listen. Then you start again. You give her the explanation one time - and one time only. From then out - you carry out the plan in action. If she wants to discuss it - you can listen - restate your reasons - reiterate your resolve and that this is all you are willing to offer at this time - then end the discussion. Don't let her bring it up often though. You should have clearly laid out the terms to end the truce - and once that is done - you stick too it in action. Words are no longer needed.

This is my suggestion - you have to handle your way - but I am just trying to show you the kind of thinking and resolve that has to be in your mind to carry out your stated plan of action. Anything less will doom your plan quickly, IMHO.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Hell, I don't know the answer to the question of if I could say no if proposition ed by an attractive woman. That's why I avoid those situations like the plague.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> You will need to decide if once or two nights of sex are worth returning to where you are now - because I guarantee the sex will not continue once she has you reeled back in.


No, it's not. If she offers sincerely, I will accept. But it has to become the norm, not the exception.

I don't believe she will offer though. I think the reaction will be either disbelief and anger, or indifference. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I like this a lot.
> 
> I didn't think your desire for intimacy is going to go away. I don't think a band aid is going to help (you guys going back to how it was, 2x a month and not anywhere near a mutual experience). This needs to be solved. Not shoved down.


If she were actually there for me, and involved, I could probably get used to twice a month. 

Before it was closer to twice a year.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> You have to change this thinking. It will keep you from doing what you need to do.
> 
> First of all - you are NOT being a ....! Stop looking at it that way. You are offering her a peaceful truce for the sake of your children and for the sake of your sanity. This is what she has indicated she wanted.
> 
> ...


This is the plan, and your suggested explanation is along the same lines as what I plan to say. It's the truth and it's from the heart. It is hard to continue the way it was. 

I tried it that way... I really did. But I couldn't do it. I kept the frustration and envy at bay for a year. But it is was beginning to slowly consume me and I didn't like the person I was becoming.

I have had a wake-up call. This is my last ditch effort to salvage the marriage. If this fails... I don't know. I'm sure I can stick it out, hang in there until my youngest is out of school. But I'm so sure I can keep the creeping darkness at bay. 


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> This is my last ditch effort to salvage the marriage. If this fails... I don't know.
> Copper


You need to think about what I told you about a surrogate, with or without her approval. Here's what you can do to put the wheels in motion. Tell your friend Mary that a woman close to both you and your wife, has told you she knows the score about your wife hating sex, her husband treats her the same way, and ya'll may be able to come mutually beneficial NSA arrangement. Ask her what she thinks. If she thinks its not a bad option, tell her your that's what you're thinking but you're uncomfortable with the friendship between this girl and your wife, and "if only" their was a little more distance between the two. See if she says she may know someone. Play it cool and like youre a little ambivalent. If she is totally against it, you'll know she's not a resource.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's what you can do to put the wheels in motion.


You are DETERMINED to get me into trouble!  

Before I do this, you are going to have to send me your phone number so they know who to call when they discover my body.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Copp, you'd have to be interested to simply find out what your options are. (I call it the play and stay option. If handled correctly nobody finds out. Remember, you only hear about the ones that do something stupid and get caught. Text messages and emails being the stupidest) When curiosity gets the best of you, let me know what transpires.


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## egap416 (Mar 16, 2015)

Not in all cases, but in many... It's a humiliation for a 300-pound woman to be naked and intimate with a man. I'm not saying you're humiliating her, but that often morbidly obese women can barely look at themselves naked in the mirror, let alone allow others to look at their naked bodies, or allow themselves to feel and act sexual, for that matter. You may wonder why doesn't she just lose the weight, then. It's possible she's addicted to food. Like a junkie that knows they're destroying their lives, but they don't stop. Plus she is comfortable with her sexless marriage. It is a lot easier to get one's emotional needs "met" with food, than to have to put the effort into an intimate relationship with another person, opening up to another and being vulnerable with them etc.

Why doesn't she just have plastic surgery (liposuction or whatever else is needed)? Maybe once she sees herself without some of the extra weight, she'll be more confident and that will motivate her to change her lifestyle and not gain all the weight back.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

egap416 said:


> Why doesn't she just have plastic surgery (liposuction or whatever else is needed)? Maybe once she sees herself without some of the extra weight, she'll be more confident and that will motivate her to change her lifestyle and not gain all the weight back.


Good question. I wish I had an answer for you. Another one of those procrastination moments I guess.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Egap, maybe.

I spent a few hours today socializing with such a person. Honest fun, junk food, good friends.... I'm not Adam Adonis myself but intimacy is mental as much as it is physical. Not the kind of person that surrenders to food.

It's not the half hour rolling around the sheets that is missed. It's the emotional connection. My wife is a size 4, 125 lb., in awesome physical shape. Intimacy wise she's in the same league as my lawnmower.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I tried it that way... I really did. But I couldn't do it. I kept the frustration and* envy* at bay for a year. But it is was beginning to slowly consume me and I didn't like the person I was becoming.
> 
> I have had a wake-up call. This is my last ditch effort to salvage the marriage. If this fails... I don't know. I'm sure I can stick it out, hang in there until my youngest is out of school. But *I'm so sure I can keep the creeping darkness at bay. *





CopperTop said:


> No.* She had her tubes tied. She nearly died* during the second pregnancy because her blood pressure got so high, and she nearly took our child with her. She spent the last month of the pregnancy, first in bed at home, then in the hospital, as the doctors tried to help her hang on until the child as developed enough so they could take him. *He was born VERY premature and spent weeks in ICU in the hospital.
> *
> It was a scary three or four month toward the end of her pregnancy, and a* tough four or five years afterwards because of his health issues. *



Copper,

Why do you use the word "envy"? You don't envy your wife. Do you mean you envy the sex lives that you think other people are having? That's normal in your circumstance. [However, a lot of other married couples have sexual problems too; you're not alone].

I guess I think of envy as a very powerful, and destructive force. Of course, this is part of the emotional corrosion that is taking place inside you because you are sexually frustrated. But try as best you can to be happy that others have good sex lives; it makes the world a better place. And realize that the envy you feel is a warning sign that you are a sexual pressure cooker at this point. Your lack of normal marital intimacy is going to do weird things to your personality.

I feel the same way about the term "creeping darkness". Do you mean depression? It sounds kind of scary. Do you think you might be clinically depressed at this point. I suppose a person can't self-diagnose such a thing. Perhaps you should tell a doctor about these sensations. Maybe I'm reading too much into this phrase. It just strikes me as something unusual; that's all.

The medical events occurring around the birth of your second child. Plus 4-5 years of tough times health wise, when he was a little boy. Do you remember that time and how your wife was adjusting; getting by. How did you adjust and get by. Did the health frailty of your child bring you closer; or drive you apart?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> Why do you use the word "envy"? You don't envy your wife. Do you mean you envy the sex lives that you think other people are having? That's normal in your circumstance. [However, a lot of other married couples have sexual problems too; you're not alone].


I realize that I am not alone in having sexual issues, and lord knows I wouldn't trade my problems for some of the other problems I have read about here. But yes, I do sometimes envy those that seem to have a normal, healthy sex life. 





intheory said:


> I guess I think of envy as a very powerful, and destructive force. Of course, this is part of the emotional corrosion that is taking place inside you because you are sexually frustrated. But try as best you can to be happy that others have good sex lives; it makes the world a better place. And realize that the envy you feel is a warning sign that you are a sexual pressure cooker at this point. Your lack of normal marital intimacy is going to do weird things to your personality.
> 
> I feel the same way about the term "creeping darkness". Do you mean depression? It sounds kind of scary. Do you think you might be clinically depressed at this point. I suppose a person can't self-diagnose such a thing. Perhaps you should tell a doctor about these sensations. Maybe I'm reading too much into this phrase. It just strikes me as something unusual; that's all.


I think you probably are reading too much into what I said. When I said "creeping darkness" I am referring to the feelings of bitterness and resentment that come calling late in the night when I can't sleep.

I don't believe I am depressed. During the day I am upbeat and happy, and it's not a an act. Just like the envy, when I feel the most out of sorts is late at night when I'm not sleeping and I am unable to "turn off" my thoughts. 

I am normally a cheerful and upbeat person. I don't like it when the negative emotions press in on me. It bothers me that I can't be grateful for what I have. Why am I so obsessed with what I don't? 





intheory said:


> The medical events occurring around the birth of your second child. Plus 4-5 years of tough times health wise, when he was a little boy. Do you remember that time and how your wife was adjusting; getting by. How did you adjust and get by. Did the health frailty of your child bring you closer; or drive you apart?


First, let me say, at this point he is perfectly fine. He is the brilliant one, the one that attending high-school and college at the same time. He is also advancing rapidly in his martial arts class and is a natural born leader. So all's well that ends well.

But during that time, before he was born, there was a lot of tension between C2 and I. She wasn't doing what the doctors said and no amount of cajoling on my part was making any difference. 

When she was bed ridden, then later, after she was admitted to the hospital, she was afraid. Afraid for her own health, and the health of the baby. I stepped up and shouldered the load. I was trying to keep her spirits up while nursing her, working, and attending to our young daughter. For almost two months she left our bed only to shower and use the bathroom.

As the prognosis for the unborn child worsened, I hid my own fears and tried to keep her spirits up. It was a dark time for us.

When they had to do an emergency c-section, she had a lot of bleeding and her blood pressure being so high nearly cost her life. The baby was hanging by a thread and was on life support to help him breath. It was many weeks before we were allowed to touch him.

Still, he pulled through and though he was in frail health, and always sick with something, he was a tough little guy and he fought his way out of his rough start. I spent many a night holding him because often he would only sleep if he could hear the beating on a heart. During this time C2's emotions were all over the place. I made sure I was rock steady for her, always there to comfort and assure her it everything would be okay, even when it wasn't clear that it would be.

I would have to say that, in the final analysis, it drove us apart. I did all I could, but this is when the marriage really went on the rocks. There was never enough time, and what little time we could scrape out together, she wouldn't allow me to touch her. 

It's better now than it was then. Those were the blackest of times, when she would rage at me or the kids, then cry and apologize. More than once I had to step in and intervene on the kids behalf when she was over reacting. I never worried that she would abuse them, but sometimes the smallest thing, like not wanting to eat something, would set her off.

We don't have those type of problems anymore, but we never returned to how we were... even before the second pregnancy.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Copper, if your last paragraph does not scream personality disorder, I don't know what else does. Normal people don't rage. Sadly it takes one to know one. Look up BPD just to be on the safe side.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Copper, if your last paragraph does not scream personality disorder, I don't know what else does. Normal people don't rage. Sadly it takes one to know one. Look up BPD just to be on the safe side.


I could have been more clear. Rage for her. There was never any throwing of things, screams, nothing like that. But she would get so mad over the smallest thing. 

We were under a lot of stress at the time. She wasn't that way before, and isn't that way now. I think it I can write it off as the times. I know she doesn't handle stress well. Never has.

I know a fellow here at work that is BPD, and when he is off his meds it is noticeable. She isn't like that.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I could have been more clear. Rage for her. There was never any throwing of things, screams, nothing like that. But she would get so mad over the smallest thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look closer - BPD is rarely treated with drugs. I'm married to one. 

Normal people do not rage. Period.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Normal people do not rage. Period.


Errr, don't think this is true. Or perhaps there are just a whole lot of non-normal people out there? 

Certainly, lots and lots of people find themselves in circumstances that make them rage.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

john117 said:


> Look closer - BPD is rarely treated with drugs. I'm married to one.
> 
> Normal people do not rage. Period.


John, I think we have a terminology issue here.

You're talking about Borderline Personality Disorder - the common term associated with BPD. The previous poster with the co-worker may be thinking about Bi-Polar Disorder, the psychological disease typically treated with drugs.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Look closer - BPD is rarely treated with drugs. I'm married to one.
> 
> Normal people do not rage. Period.





MarriedTex said:


> John, I think we have a terminology issue here.
> 
> You're talking about Borderline Personality Disorder - the common term associated with BPD. The previous poster with the co-worker may be thinking about Bi-Polar Disorder, the psychological disease typically treated with drugs.


Sorry... I had never heard of borderline personality disorder. Tex is right... I assumed BPD stood for bi-polar disorder.

I have looked up BPD... it still doesn't fit very well.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Sorry... I had never heard of borderline personality disorder. Tex is right... I assumed BPD stood for bi-polar disorder.
> 
> I have looked up BPD... it still doesn't fit very well.











From your description I would think it does fit...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Your wife's morbid obesity is fueling a crippling insecurity that is destroying her life. The only reason that her marriage is still somewhat intact is because she had the good fortune to marry the biggest martyr currently living on planet Earth.

Never underestimate the power of fear. Your wife's fear of facing her insecurities head on are so astronomical, she's so terrified of being seen in the metaphorical and literal light of day, that she'd rather kill her marriage, commit slow suicide and even abandon her children, than deal with her issues.

She's an aging woman over 50. She is unlikely to change. 

And at this point she has no reason to. You are a master enabler. You, rather miraculously, are able to find the silver lining in the nuclear holocaust that is your marriage. You're incredibly talented at spinning straw colored sh*t into the finest quality gold. And make no mistake about it, you do have a talent.

So I'm not sure why people here are continuing to even offer you advice on marital improvement or even escape when you've made it perfectly clear that you will likely never leave. It literally doesn't matter how your "spouse" treats you, you've built up a mile high wall of excuses to stay that are equally as high as her walls of excuses not to be a real wife. You both aren't opposites so much as you're two sides of the same wildly dysfunctional coin. That you've made it this far, on so little, is a testament to how well suited you actually are, as unfortunate as that looks to the outsiders in this thread.

At this point your great hope is to find a way to enjoy your self imposed slavery. All advice should be directed toward helping you make your plantation as comfortable as possible.

I think you should concentrate on giving your wife total control. She has almost all of it, but your resistance isn't quite stamped out. Assimilate entirely. Since you've vowed to stay, no matter what, you might as well enjoy your time in peace. Accept that your hand is your now faithful, and only, lover, abandon even the hope of sex and enjoy your chaste snuggles and apparently otherwise nearly-perfect marriage with your "wife".

And I'm only being a little facetious. *She will never change*. *You will never leave*. Why live in misery for your remaining days? Accept her fully as she is, let go of all other desires, dreams, goals and fantasies, and fall completely into this life you've chosen.

It's time to go, finally, gently into that goodnight.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> First, let me say, at this point he is perfectly fine. He is the brilliant one, the one that attending high-school and college at the same time. He is also advancing rapidly in his martial arts class and is a natural born leader. So all's well that ends well.
> 
> The baby was hanging by a thread and was on life support to help him breath. It was many weeks before we were allowed to touch him.
> 
> Still, he pulled through and though he was in frail health, and always sick with something, he was a tough little guy and he fought his way out of his rough start. I spent many a night holding him because often he would only sleep if he could hear the beating on a heart.


Congratulations on doing a *wonderful* job as a father. And I am glad that your son, though having a feeble hold on life in his early days; has grown up to have so much promise academically, and with his martial arts.

What would you want him to know about marriage? What advice would you give him about dating, and what to look for in a wife?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> From your description I would think it does fit...


Well, let's take them one at a time.

Fear of Abandonment: No. No signs this is the case

Cutting or Suicidal: No

Unstable Self-Image: Doesn't like her weight, but other than that... no 

Unstable Relationships: No. We fuss over our intimacy, but other than that... no

Impulsive: Less so than a lot of people I know 

Mood Swings: No. She is normally upbeat and happy... except when I press her on intimacy

Inappropriate Anger: If she is under a lot of stress or I am pressing, she gets a little touchy. Other than that, no

Chronic Emptiness: I don't know what this means

Stress Related Paranoia: No. She doesn't handle stress well, but paranoia? No.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> What would you want him to know about marriage? What advice would you give him about dating, and what to look for in a wife?


I think he should look for someone that is well suited to meeting his wants and desires. But that is a two way street. He equally needs to respond to his partners wants and desires as well. And when those things come into conflict, they need to sort them out, and both need to be willing to compromise.

There is more to marriage than just getting laid. This is the thing I don't understand about some. I see the world as bigger than just me. My wants don't always trump everyone elses. I'm more about US and less about ME. 

In nearly every other way, C2 and I are ideally suited to each other. Not only do I love her, but I enjoy being with her. She is smart, funny, warm and caring. She is helpful and willing to listen when things aren't going well. She is supportive and understanding. I try to be with her as she is with me.

Have I just described a close friend? Maybe so... but isn't that what you should want in a life companion? Friends and lovers... may they always be the same. But if they can't be the same, I think I would rather have a good and reliable friend that makes me happy than a lover that makes me miserable.

I've had both, in the same person. The first is nice, if not perfect. The latter... is terrible. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I must have really crossed the line the other night. I expected her to return to our bed Sunday night, and she did not. I then expected the same last night. Again, she did not. She is still "punishing" me.

I think this is the longest that we have not shared a bed. I hope she returns to our room tonight, but I'm not holding my breath. 

The thing that annoys me more than her sleeping in the other room is the fact that I am being excluded from meal time. I hate eating alone, but until she gets over being mad, this will be the way it is. Now I'm just waiting her out.

Who knows... my problem may sort itself out. I don't see myself leaving her, but I may have pushed so hard this time that she may be contemplating leaving me.


Copper


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> The thing that annoys me more than her sleeping in the other room is the fact that I am being excluded from meal time.


This is pathetic


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Unstable Self-Image: Doesn't like her weight, but other than that... no


Your wife has, again, a cripplingly unstable self image problem.

It took days but I've read all of your posts in this thread. You don't seem to register how incredibly damaged your wife's self image is.

You dismiss her massive weight gain as some magical byproduct of pregnancy. It takes an incredibly dysfunctional relationship with food, and very off kilter emotional life, for most women to climb up to 300 lbs. You don't gain that kind of weight just because you got pregnant, and even if you did, you don't keep it on for decades.

Why did she chose to gain so much weight? Why has she kept it on? Her weight has become a physical, literal barrier that's little more than an outward manifestation of her internal ones.

There is no "other than that" with your wife. If you've never been morbidly obese, or haven't dealt closely with people who have massive body image issues, it might shock you to what degree a person will alter their entire lives in order to accommodate their insecurities. There is a good chance she had severe body image issues before she gained all this weight and the additionally weight gain merely exacerbated said pre-existing issue.

There is the very real possibility that your wife has awaken every day for decades loathing herself because of how she looks, and feels, in her body. The loathing is compounded by the fact that it's largely a voluntary condition, which makes most feel even worse, as they can, but don't, escape their prisons. 

I think you might be floored if you could peek into her head for even 5 minutes at the potentially deep level of negativity, self loathing and self shaming.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I think he should look for someone that is well suited to meeting his wants and desires. But that is a two way street. He equally needs to respond to his partners wants and desires as well. And when those things come into conflict, they need to sort them out, and both need to be willing to compromise.
> 
> There is more to marriage than just getting laid. This is the thing I don't understand about some. I see the world as bigger than just me. My wants don't always trump everyone elses. I'm more about US and less about ME.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

You've spent an incredible amount of time in this thread defending your wife. 

To be honest she sounds like a nightmare to me. I've been here for years and your wife sounds like one of the worst spouses I've ever encountered. I doubt many people in here are buying your continued white washing campaign.

But here's the thing, it doesn't matter what we think ultimately. If you truly believe that your wife is a great partner, that she is so well suited for you, that your are bigger than most and see the world in "US" not "me", that you don't believe sex is important enough to end a marriage over, if you've honestly accepted your fate and think things are, overall, pretty good...

Then why are you still here? You've spent 70+ pages basically staying exactly where you started and, regardless of what your wife does, you're still proclaiming that she's an incredible wife. 

So what, exactly, can anybody here do for you?


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Your wife has, again, a cripplingly unstable self image problem.
> 
> It took days but I've read all of your posts in this thread. You don't seem to register how incredibly damaged your wife's self image is.


Perhaps you are correct. She seems happy and well adjusted, if self-conscious of her weight. But I'm not a physiologist, and she refuses talk about it, so perhaps I am underestimating how she feels. 





jaquen said:


> You dismiss her massive weight gain as some magical byproduct of pregnancy. It takes an incredibly dysfunctional relationship, and very off kilter emotional life, for most women to climb up to 300 lbs. You don't gain that kind of weight just because you got pregnant, and even if you did, you don't keep it on for decades.


The weight DID come with pregnancy. The doctor fussed at her continuously about the amount of weight she was gaining, especially the second time. After the first pregnancy, she lost very little, then gained even more with the second. The weight was what was triggering her blood pressure problem. My best guess in about 100 pounds of the weight she has gained (of I would guess 120-150 total) came with the pregnancies.

Why hasn't she lost it? Because she hasn't really tried. She's just that kind of person. If something is hard, or unpleasant, she doesn't want to do it. Nothing "wrong" with that. There are millions of people out there that are exactly the same way.





jaquen said:


> Why did she chose to gain so much weight? Why has she kept it on? Her weight has become a physical, literal barrier that's little more than an outward manifestation of her internal ones.
> 
> There is no "other than that" with your wife. If you've never been morbidly obese, or haven't dealt closely with people who have massive body image issues, it might shock you to what degree a person will alter their entire lives in order to accommodate their insecurities. There is a good chance she had severe body image issues before she gained all this weight and the additionally weight gain merely exacerbated said pre-existing issue.
> 
> ...


Maybe so. And I have tried to get us into counseling. But I can't MAKE her go short of kidnapping her, and so far, she hasn't wanted to go.

I have spent years encouraging her to lose weight. I don't criticize her, I encourage her, but it always ends the same way. She will make progress, then something will happen, and she will quit and go back to bad habits, and put the weight, plus a few, back on. 

Then she will stabilize. After some amount of time, the cycle will repeat. We are in a lull now. She had been doing well, but after our spat, she has given up again. Once she is over being mad at me, I will once again start encouraging her to walk with me, to use the cardio machine, etc. But I can't do it for her. She has to want to do it for herself.


Copper


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> This is pathetic


How is one "excluded" from meal time? Does she make you stand in the corner while the rest of the family eat? Does she rig your chair with electrical wire so you can't sit? Have you considered that you might take the kid to dinner and exclude HER from meal time?

Oh, that's right. Your wife is a wonderful person, as is your marriage....except for the sex. Sorry I forgot for a moment there. Now, back to your martyrdom.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> So what, exactly, can anybody here do for you?


Nothing. I have to want to do it myself. 

I have picked up a few tips, things that I'm trying. Will they work? To be honest, I doubt it. But they are things I hadn't realized before, things that I haven't tried. 

But it is a slow process. It takes time for things to change. Now I am just watching the thread and responding out of courtsy. I have my plan and I am working on it. 

What I am hoping for is some little breakthrough. Not that she will change, I think that is hoping for too much, but that she will realize that she needs to talk to someone who can help her better than I can.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> How is one "excluded" from meal time? Does she make you stand in the corner while the rest of the family eat? Does she rig your chair with electrical wire so you can't sit? Have you considered that you might take the kid to dinner and exclude HER from meal time?
> 
> Oh, that's right. Your wife is a wonderful person, as is your marriage....except for the sex. Sorry I forgot for a moment there. Now, back to your martyrdom.


Being snarky helps no one. 

I don't arrive home from work until almost seven. C2 arrives home about four, and they eat about six.

When times are good, they wait (except on the two days a week my son has his martial arts class) until I get home to eat. 


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> The weight DID come with pregnancy.



The weight didn't come with pregnancy, it came during pregnancy. She used two pregnancies as an excuse to emotionally eat her way to morbid obesity. Which means there were issues pre-dating the pregnancy.

Pregnancy has nothing to do with a woman gaining over a HUNDRED pounds of fat. And even if it did, it has nothing to do with her staying morbidly obese long after the pregnancies are over. 

I'm also guessing that she was likely overweight before the first pregnancy?






CopperTop said:


> The weight DID come with pregnancy.Why hasn't she lost it? Because she hasn't really tried. She's just that kind of person. If something is hard, or unpleasant, she doesn't want to do it. Nothing "wrong" with that. There are millions of people out there that are exactly the same way.



"Millions of people" do a lot of awful things. Do you really, truly, believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with your wife's behavior just because other people behave in the same way?






CopperTop said:


> But I can't do it for her. She has to want to do it for herself.
> 
> 
> Copper


Right, you can't do it for her.

However you can decide what you're willing to deal with.

But since you've made it clear that your wife will never face any consequences for anything she ever does to you, your kids, or herself, than any power you had to potentially rock her out of her legendary malise has been forfeited.

No you can't help your wife. And the sad thing is that you'll enable her straight to an early grave.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> The weight didn't come with pregnancy, it came during pregnancy. She used two pregnancies as an excuse to emotionally eat her way to morbid obesity.
> 
> Pregnancy has nothing to do with a woman gaining over a HUNDRED pounds of fat. And even if it did, it has nothing to do with her staying morbidly obese long after the pregnancies are over.
> 
> I'm also guessing that she was likely overweight before the first pregnancy?


I guess it depends on how you define overweight. Was she overweight by some government defined table? Yes she was. Just as I am now. 

But she was still a very attractive woman. She was built much like A s h l e y Graham. Maybe not every guy's cup of tea, but very much mine.





jaquen said:


> "Millions of people" do a lot of awful things. Do you really, truly, believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with your wife's behavior just because other people behave in the same way?


No. I think villainizing someone you don't even know because she is overweight is wrong. 

She has one of those personality types that tends to let things happen to them. Rather than attack a problem head on, they sit back passively and hope that it gets better, or that someone else will deal with it. 

I know several people like this. In C2's case, it is unfortunate, but it is the way she is and it is not outside what I would consider a normal person. 




jaquen said:


> You can't do it for her.
> 
> You can decide what you're willing to deal with.
> 
> ...


And this is the sticking point. It seems that a good many people think that unless I leave, or at the very least, threaten to leave, then I am enabling. 

I don't see it that way. I don't buy her boxes of chocolates. I don't run fetch her another Twinkie. I don't push her around in a wheelchair so she doesn't have to walk. I don't prepare her high fat, high calorie meals. I am doing nothing to encourage her bad behavior, and everything I can to encourage her to change. 

No threats. No mind games. Just continuous, gentle, support until SHE decides she wants to change.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> This is pathetic


You're right. It is. I hate these stupid little mind games and refuse to play. When she does things like this, I ignore it.

You would think after all these years she would give up trying, but I guess since I refuse to engage her in her bad behavior, she has no other way to express her disapproval over my actions. 

Right now we are in the stand off stage. This is what happens when she gets mad at me over something but I refuse to apologize because it is her issue, not mine. 

Eventually she either gets over being mad, or gives up, and will come to me. But until she does, she can just be mad because ultimately, it's her problem, not mine.


Copper


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> You're right. It is. I hate these stupid little mind games and refuse to play. When she does things like this, I ignore it.
> 
> You would think after all these years she would give up trying, but I guess since I refuse to engage her in her bad behavior, she has no other way to express her disapproval over my actions.
> 
> ...


Talk about immature.......I don't know how you stand it! She's acting just like a little kid does when they don't get their way.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I guess it depends on how you define overweight. Was she overweight by some government defined table? Yes she was. Just as I am now.
> 
> But she was still a very attractive woman. She was built much like A s h l e y Graham. Maybe not every guy's cup of tea, but very much mine.


AshIey Graham is beautiful, but still fat. So yes, your wife was overweight. I'm trying to ascertain if your wife had issues with her own weight prior to the massive gains during her pregnancies. I'm not making commentary about what you personally find attractive or how appealing she was sexually.





CopperTop said:


> She has one of those personality types that tends to let things happen to them. Rather than attack a problem head on, they sit back passively and hope that it gets better, or that someone else will deal with it.


That's not a personality type, that's a personality flaw.



CopperTop said:


> In C2's case, it is unfortunate, but it is the way she is and it is not outside what I would consider a normal person.


Again, tons of flawed behavior is "normal". What does the degree of perceived normalcy have to do with anything?




CopperTop said:


> And this is the sticking point. It seems that a good many people think that unless I leave, or at the very least, threaten to leave, then I am enabling.


Oh make no mistake about it, you are a classic enabler. It manifests in all areas of your marriage, not just your wife's weight.

Let me ask you a question. If your wife's drug of choice was heroin instead of food, if her drug addiction was destroying her health to the point where her doctor warned she'd likely be dead in 5 years or less, would you still be as understanding, casual and accepting of her behavior?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Let me ask you a question. If your wife's drug of choice was heroin instead of food, if her drug addiction was destroying her health to the point where her doctor warned she'd likely be dead in 5 years or less, would you still be as understanding, casual and accepting of her behavior?


To a point, yes. 

I would rather try to help her than simply dump her. But I wouldn't be willing to tolerate for as long it for the simple reason it is illegal, and I don't want that blowing back on my family.

If it weren't illegal, and she controlled it so that it only affected her in the same way her weight does... I would probably stay. One again, it's her devil to wrestle with, not mine.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

karole said:


> Talk about immature.......I don't know how you stand it! She's acting just like a little kid does when they don't get their way.


Fortunately she doesn't pull these types of stunts often. This is maybe the third or fourth time in 15 years. Most of the time, it is just the cold shoulder.

When she acts like a child, I treat her the same way I treated my kids when they threw a tantrum. "When you are ready to be a part of the family again, we are here, but until then, you can just go be mad."


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> To a point, yes.
> 
> I would rather try to help her than simply dump her. But I wouldn't be willing to tolerate for as long it for the simple reason it is illegal, and I don't want that blowing back on my family.
> 
> ...


So basically, yet again, it literally does not matter what your wife does. You will always defend, excuse and enable.

And if you seriously believe your wife's weight, and concomitant health problems, only affect her you're sadly mistaken. The "blowback" is destroying mental health, your sex life and could potentially leave your children motherless rather early and you a widower.

Unless, on some level, that's your hope? Is a part of you looking forward to the "till death do us part" section of the vows? Because you come off strangely accepting of your wife's slow suicide.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Unless, on some level, that's your hope? Is a part of you looking forward to the "till death do us part" section of the vows? Because you come off strangely accepting of your wife's slow suicide.


Okay... what would YOU do?


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Fortunately she doesn't pull these types of stunts often. This is maybe the third or fourth time in 15 years. Most of the time, it is just the cold shoulder.
> 
> When she acts like a child, I treat her the same way I treated my kids when they threw a tantrum. "When you are ready to be a part of the family again, we are here, but until then, you can just go be mad."
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, you're getting treated like a dog, in FRONT of your kids, and you're only "reaction" is a lack of reaction.

Your daughter and son are being trained, right now, that they can expect not to eat with their families if they upset their spouse. More specifically, your son is being trained that, and your daughter is being trained that her future husband should only eat with the family if she's 100% happy with him. 

Not engaging is part of your problem Copper. You think it makes you look like some "above it all" Buddhist. It DOESN'T. It makes you look like an impotent p^ssy. You literally don't seem to have a single thing in your life you wouldn't do without, or wouldn't endure, just to soothe your wife. That's JUST as pathetic as her childish tantrums.

I would call my wife to the carpet in front of the family for this. Get everyone together, and explicitly state that what she is doing is childish. SHOW your children that this is not a normal, healthy dynamic. Because you're the ONLY one that can do it. 

We've mentioned before: you train people how to treat you. She's doing this exactly because she thinks it is an effective way of dealing with you. Do you understand that? By doing what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. 

That's jaquen and other's point on here. You take snippets, add that to your mental process, then go right back to doing what you've always done and suggest you've made some monumental change. 

You appear to just come here to express your martyrdom, and not actually want to change anything. Because you've been given a good number of ways to do something real, and as noted many times already, and explicitly stated by you "reject them out of hand". Some part of you seems to get off on the victimhood of being treated like a non-person if you don't conform to your wife's whims. 

Chemical castration man. Just do it. Seems like it would solve the only problem you actually feel a need to address, the last vestiges of a potential real relationship. Then you can all play nice. Then in a few years your wife will solve all the rest (but create a bunch more - like "Why did you let Mom just slowly die, Dad?").


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Okay... what would YOU do?
> 
> 
> Copper


First off I've been morbidly obese, so I know the challenges. At my highest I was even bigger than your wife, but have since lost over 100 lbs.

And likewise while my wife is considerably younger, and smaller, than your wife she has a weight problem that's exacerbating her health issues already, despite her being a relatively young woman.

I support my wife, but I don't enable her. I don't tiptoe around the weight and health issues. She knows VERY well that I expect her to shed the weight, primarily for her own health. I lost both my parents to complications from weight related issues, and overall voluntarily neglecting and trashing their health; I was an orphan by 30. She was there during all of that. Being with me long term there is an expectation that we take care of our health, for each other and ourselves.


It is a struggle, one I dealt with since childhood, so I know. But you don't roll over and just say "well it's normal for people to give up, so it's all on you". You stand and you fight. You be kind, but honest. You don't let the proverbial elephant sit in the room and just grow larger, in silence. You face this stuff head on because that's the only way you have a shot at defeating the major odds and becoming a success.

We deal with it together, openly and honestly. The emotional fall out, her psychological addiction to food, how being fat has affected both of us at different times in our lives, the limitations, the body image issues, the shame, all of it has been on the table and will remain so. 

We encourage and support each other. We're mindful of what's in our kitchen, since the amount you eat is 85% of weight loss. We keep an ever flowing conversation about eating, weight, exercise, all of it, even if it gets uncomfortable at times. 

It's a fight we're in together and we won't be stepping off the merry go round and giving up long term. That is simply NOT allowed and my wife knows that and has known that since BEFORE we wed. It's not "her problem" or "my problem", but it's OUR problem. 

So when will you go to your wife and say "I love you too much to watch you kill yourself? I don't want to lose you early and have our kids have to bury you too soon. I'm with you all the way, but we must face this."

Is there a guarantee she'll fight? Nope. But you have to do what you can do. And you have to treat this issue just like you would if she were hooked on cocaine, heroine or any other life destroying substance. You have to be understanding, loving and kind, but also tough and relentless. It's a fight for life. Hers, yours and your kids.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Unfortunately, you're getting treated like a dog, in FRONT of your kids, and you're only "reaction" is a lack of reaction.
> 
> Your daughter and son are being trained, right now, that they can expect not to eat with their families if they upset their spouse. More specifically, your son is being trained that, and your daughter is being trained that her future husband should only eat with the family if she's 100% happy with him.
> 
> ...



QFT :iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Copper, that was an epic rug sweep... Suicidal thoughts? What do you call being told you are near DOA and doing nothing? Unstable relationship? Running out when pressured sounds like it... Etcetera etcetera.

From your descriptions at least that's what I'm sensing. I'll reiterate, run this by a therapist and see what he says...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Unfortunately, you're getting treated like a dog, in FRONT of your kids, and you're only "reaction" is a lack of reaction.
> 
> Your daughter and son are being trained, right now, that they can expect not to eat with their families if they upset their spouse. More specifically, your son is being trained that, and your daughter is being trained that her future husband should only eat with the family if she's 100% happy with him.
> 
> ...


Copper, this post may seem harsh but it is the honest truth. This drama is getting played out in front of your kids and it is not healthy. The mealtime issue is getting me upset because after a long day at work the most important thing is to connect with your kids at dinner. I'm sure they look forward to it as well. Your wife's behavior is hurting them.

The most disheartening part is that you are making excuses for why you can take our suggestions. All we are asking is that you grow a pair, being excluded from dinner is not growing a pair. When I was young I looked forward to waiting up for dad to come home. Damn shame you are letting your wife steal this experience from them.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

For the record, I'm a low desire person in my marriage. My hubby and I have had our disputes, large and small, but I never interfere with my son's time with his dad because I'm carrying out some type of grudge. We don't do that in this house.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Unfortunately, you're getting treated like a dog, in FRONT of your kids, and you're only "reaction" is a lack of reaction.
> Your daughter and son are being trained, right now, that they can expect not to eat with their families if they upset their spouse. More specifically, your son is being trained that, and your daughter is being trained that her future husband should only eat with the family if she's 100% happy with him.


My advice is to keep your sons and daughter away from Copper's son and daughter.  

Copp, did you ever get with Mary and see if she could set you up with one of her girlfriends? :smthumbup:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Copp, did you ever get with Mary and see if she could set you up with one of her girlfriends? :smthumbup:


No, and I'm not going to either. I have enough headaches without adding THAT to them.

Thanks for the advice, but I won't be following through on your suggestion.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> We deal with it together, openly and honestly. The emotional fall out, her psychological addiction to food, how being fat has affected both of us at different times in our lives, the limitations, the body image issues, the shame, all of it has been on the table and will remain so.
> 
> We encourage and support each other. We're mindful of what's in our kitchen, since the amount you eat is 85% of weight loss. We keep an ever flowing conversation about eating, weight, exercise, all of it, even if it gets uncomfortable at times.


Allow me to congratulate you on your weight loss. :smthumbup:

This is how we are. We don't avoid the issue. Every single time I walk the dog I ask her to go with me. I walk the dog my normal route, then I try to get her to go on a short, slow, level walk. When she reaches some mental milestone that I have picked, such as completing the walk without stopping, I point out the progress she has made.

I eat a diet that is completely different than hers. I encourage her to eat like I do, but in the end, I can't do it for her. I can prepare the salad, but I can't make her eat it.

This is the part nobody seems to get. I don't avoid the issues, but she has to WANT to change too.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

techmom said:


> For the record, I'm a low desire person in my marriage. My hubby and I have had our disputes, large and small, but I never interfere with my son's time with his dad because I'm carrying out some type of grudge. We don't do that in this house.


And she doesn't interfere with mine. I'm not sure what I said that implied that she did, but the kids are not hidden away so that I can't see them or anything like that. 

They are perfectly free to come join me for dinner if they like (though they normally don't). The family eats two nights a week without me anyway because of my son's class. They eat, and the moment I get home from work, he jumps in the car and we leave. 

I ate with the family the entire weekend because there was no good way for her to prevent it without looking spiteful. But last night I ate alone, but there was no reason for it. So I know she was just "sending me a message."

Okay... message received. But it is just like when my kids try the "I'm going to hold my breath until I die!" type tactics years ago. 

My response then was just like it is with this now. "Okay. You might want to lie down first so you don't hurt yourself with you fall."


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Unfortunately, you're getting treated like a dog, in FRONT of your kids, and you're only "reaction" is a lack of reaction.


Arriving home and fixing my own dinner is not being treated like a dog. It happens twice a week on a normal schedule because I don't have TIME to eat before I have to leave with my son. So they eat, then I eat after we return from his class.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Your daughter and son are being trained, right now, that they can expect not to eat with their families if they upset their spouse. More specifically, your son is being trained that, and your daughter is being trained that her future husband should only eat with the family if she's 100% happy with him.
> 
> Not engaging is part of your problem Copper. You think it makes you look like some "above it all" Buddhist. It DOESN'T. It makes you look like an impotent p^ssy. You literally don't seem to have a single thing in your life you wouldn't do without, or wouldn't endure, just to soothe your wife. That's JUST as pathetic as her childish tantrums.


Your argument would have merit if I were walking around hang dog, begging for forgiveness and walking on eggshells. But I'm not. I just refuse to get pulled into her petty little game, just like I refused to get pulled into my kids little power plays when they were younger. 

I just go about my business and she can be huffy and in a snit if she wants to be. Doesn't bother me at all.





ET1SSJonota said:


> I would call my wife to the carpet in front of the family for this. Get everyone together, and explicitly state that what she is doing is childish. SHOW your children that this is not a normal, healthy dynamic. Because you're the ONLY one that can do it.


That's one way to approach it. I prefer the other. Correct in private, congratulate in public. 

Right now my kids know that throwing tantrums etc carries zero weight with me... even on the rare occasion with their mom does it. They have learned, from how I treat everyone in the family, that when you are done with your little fit, then you are welcome to rejoin the family. Until then, you can just go be mad. My kids have learned this lesson. My wife is a little more stubborn.




ET1SSJonota said:


> We've mentioned before: you train people how to treat you. She's doing this exactly because she thinks it is an effective way of dealing with you. Do you understand that? By doing what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.


Clearly. And this is where the change is going to happen. Before, when C2 would pull this cold shoulder business, when she was done, I was there, waiting to take her back. Low to anger, quick to forgive. 

This time, if she wants to be left alone, that is just what she is getting. No warm hugs accepting her back as if she hadn't gotten sniffy. She said she wants just a friend. Fine, that's what I'll be.

My hope is she will want to know what MY problem is, and then we can begin to discuss. We can talk about how I no longer want to live in the limbo between husband and friend. So, since she doesn't want me to be her husband, I'll have to content myself with being her friend. We'll see where that leads. I'm hoping it, eventually, leads to a better place.





ET1SSJonota said:


> That's jaquen and other's point on here. You take snippets, add that to your mental process, then go right back to doing what you've always done and suggest you've made some monumental change.
> 
> You appear to just come here to express your martyrdom, and not actually want to change anything. Because you've been given a good number of ways to do something real, and as noted many times already, and explicitly stated by you "reject them out of hand". Some part of you seems to get off on the victimhood of being treated like a non-person if you don't conform to your wife's whims.


I think this is where the disconnect comes from. I don't live my life at my wife's whims. I live my life in spite of her whims. We talk and discuss, and I try to show her how it should be. But when she gets her hackles up, I just go about my life as if she hadn't until such time she decides she is done being mad.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Chemical castration man. Just do it. Seems like it would solve the only problem you actually feel a need to address, the last vestiges of a potential real relationship. Then you can all play nice. Then in a few years your wife will solve all the rest (but create a bunch more - like "Why did you let Mom just slowly die, Dad?").


I have said time and again. I can't do it for her. SHE has to want to change. SHE has to take the steps. 

I STILL haven't heard one valid reason why threatening to leave will MAKE her change her ways. Everyone who advocates this approach beats up on me, but they haven't explained to my satisfaction how or why it will work when being supportive will not.

Here is what I see happening. I threaten to leave. She refuses to change as she always has refused to change. I leave. Now ex-wife has no positive support from me. She still dies young. She still has access to the kids because there is no reason that court wouldn't grant her at least partial custody, so any bad influences she may be demonstrating are still there. Perhaps even worse than they are now. I will now have less influence on the kids because I am only around 50% of the time. AND now my kids are from a broken home. Oh, and let's not forget, that dad is the one that walked out. I don't care how you spin that last, the kids are going to see that as a bad thing.

If someone can clearly explain the win in that, as opposed to my approach, I'm still listening.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Copper, that was an epic rug sweep... Suicidal thoughts? What do you call being told you are near DOA and doing nothing?


Burying your head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away. Just like she does on every other thing she doesn't want to deal with.





john117 said:


> Unstable relationship? Running out when pressured sounds like it...


Okay. That one caught me off guard. She had never done that before. But one time does not pattern make.





john117 said:


> Etcetera etcetera.
> 
> From your descriptions at least that's what I'm sensing. I'll reiterate, run this by a therapist and see what he says...


Tomorrow is my next chat with the therapist. I will run it by him and see what he says.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Arriving home and fixing my own dinner is not being treated like a dog. It happens twice a week on a normal schedule because I don't have TIME to eat before I have to leave with my son. So they eat, then I eat after we return from his class.
> Your argument would have merit if I were walking around hang dog, begging for forgiveness and walking on eggshells. But I'm not. I just refuse to get pulled into her petty little game, just like I refused to get pulled into my kids little power plays when they were younger.


This “one” instance does not equal being treated like a dog. The entire package, sir, DOES INDEED. The fact that you don’t recognize that is part of the problem that we are all seeing, and you are denying. 
Please also explain to me the difference between “walking on eggshells” and not addressing issues. Because from my angle, that’s pretty much EXACTLY the same thing. While you might imagine that walking on eggshells has some cowering function to it, that is the figurative, and not literal meaning. You ABSOLUTELY walk on eggshells by ignoring issues instead of confronting them. 


CopperTop said:


> I just go about my business and she can be huffy and in a snit if she wants to be. Doesn't bother me at all.


Bull. Sh1t. You’ve already said it DOES bother you. Again – quit kidding us, and yourself.


CopperTop said:


> That's one way to approach it. I prefer the other. Correct in private, congratulate in public.
> Right now my kids know that throwing tantrums etc carries zero weight with me... even on the rare occasion with their mom does it. They have learned, from how I treat everyone in the family, that when you are done with your little fit, then you are welcome to rejoin the family. Until then, you can just go be mad. My kids have learned this lesson. My wife is a little more stubborn.


The only problem with your scenario here Copper is that YOU are the one who isn’t joining the family. YOU are the one out. Implicit in this exchange is that in some form or fashion you are supposed to bend in order to be allowed back at the table (in this instance, and figuratively for others). 
You don’t see how this exchange can affect your kids and the way they see relationship dynamics? From this vantage, it looks like Mom has all the power, and Dad “puts on airs” like he’s better than everyone but succumbs to whatever Mom demands. 


CopperTop said:


> This time, if she wants to be left alone, that is just what she is getting. No warm hugs accepting her back as if she hadn't gotten sniffy. She said she wants just a friend. Fine, that's what I'll be.


Time will tell.



CopperTop said:


> My hope is she will want to know what MY problem is, and then we can begin to discuss. We can talk about how I no longer want to live in the limbo between husband and friend. So, since she doesn't want me to be her husband, I'll have to content myself with being her friend. We'll see where that leads. I'm hoping it, eventually, leads to a better place.


How many times does she have to tell you, implicitly and explicitly, that she doesn’t CARE what your problems are? 


CopperTop said:


> I think this is where the disconnect comes from. I don't live my life at my wife's whims. I live my life in spite of her whims. We talk and discuss, and I try to show her how it should be. But when she gets her hackles up, I just go about my life as if she hadn't until such time she decides she is done being mad.


Which is NOT dealing with problems. Look up “rugsweeping”. Do some reading. Because you might be the single most amazing non-infidelity rugsweeper I’ve ever heard of.


CopperTop said:


> I STILL haven't heard one valid reason why threatening to leave will MAKE her change her ways. Everyone who advocates this approach beats up on me, but they haven't explained to my satisfaction how or why it will work when being supportive will not.
> Here is what I see happening. I threaten to leave. She refuses to change as she always has refused to change. I leave. Now ex-wife has no positive support from me. She still dies young. She still has access to the kids because there is no reason that court wouldn't grant her at least partial custody, so any bad influences she may be demonstrating are still there. Perhaps even worse than they are now. I will now have less influence on the kids because I am only around 50% of the time. AND now my kids are from a broken home. Oh, and let's not forget, that dad is the one that walked out. I don't care how you spin that last, the kids are going to see that as a bad thing.
> If someone can clearly explain the win in that, as opposed to my approach, I'm still listening.
> Copper


You’ll never hear any reason why ANY action of yours will MAKE HER change anything. Unless you want to resort to violence, and that’s rather short-lived. So in short, you’re deflecting that decision because it’s not what you WANT to do. The operable phrase being “to my satisfaction”. We get it – you really just want a pity party. But we’re not just going to pat you on your little martyred back and tell you you’ve done a great job. You haven’t. You’re complicit in the entire relationship dynamic because you don’t do ANYTHING actively to counteract it. 
Unfortunately, next to nothing will actually change unless you actually change the way you approach it. IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET WHAT YOU WANT. It means there is a possibility for a different outcome. Doing the same thing over and over again gets you: the same thing you’ve always gotten. How’s that worked out for you so far Copper?
Here’s the win in the scenario Copper: you stood up for yourself. You demanded better, or nothing. You won’t take quarter rations, you want a meal. You would have shown that you believe people are accountable for their actions. Further, you showed that while great patience is a virtue, not tolerated effective abuse is where that virtue ends. You made it clear that you won’t stand by and watch your wife kill herself, and what little relationship is left between you, without a fight. 
But here again, we know you’re “listening”. You’re just not “acting”.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Please also explain to me the difference between “walking on eggshells” and not addressing issues.


Before we discuss anything else, I would like to get this clear. How have I not addressed the issues? We have talked about them. I have suggested counseling. I have suggested that we talk to a minister. I have made demands, which she sort of met, but made the experience so miserable that it wasn't even worth the effort. About the only thing I can think of that I HAVEN'T done is beg or threaten to leave. 

Maybe this is my problem. How else should I address them?


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Before we discuss anything else, I would like to get this clear. How have I not addressed the issues? We have talked about them. I have suggested counseling. I have suggested that we talk to a minister. I have made demands, which she sort of met, but made the experience so miserable that it wasn't even worth the effort. About the only thing I can think of that I HAVEN'T done is beg or threaten to leave.
> Maybe this is my problem. How else should I address them?
> Copper


She intentionally excludes you from dinner. You do nothing. You “wait” for her to get over herself. This is not “addressing” the issue. This is avoiding/ignoring the issue and hoping it goes away. This allows things to fester, resentment to grow. This is rugsweeping, and it is extraordinarily unhealthy. If this is how you have reacted your entire marriage to her outbursts, then it may have a great deal to do with how she feels about you.

You keep mentioning that this is how you react to your children’s tantrums. For starters, while she may act like a child, she is an adult. Child-rearing tactics rarely work on developed adults. Consider if you were to realize that she were using tactics on you that she used on the children. How would that make YOU feel? 

Beyond that, she may just think that you not addressing the issues is just ignoring her/minimizing her feelings. Go through a lot of the sexless/LD threads and see how many women discuss this as a major mood killer.

You keep acting like your only choices are to beg, leave, or suck it up. There are far more options than that. For starters, addressing the issue for what it is in front of everyone. Personally, I think she should be ashamed for the underhanded dinner thing. You may think it is nothing, but there is a HUGE connection between eating together as a family and the family bond. There’s another thing you can do some searching on. I’ve already mentioned what you can do here – and you still end up saying beg or threaten. Sigh.

Lastly - you keep saying “threaten to leave”. This is not a bluffing game. It is not about holding it over her head. As I’ve said multiple times already, you ACTUALLY ARE considering leaving her, strongly, once the children are gone. Why is it “threatening” to state the truth? This is action/reaction, or action/consequence. She has left you feeling like crap for decades. Why is it so wrong to simply state that you are nearing the end of your rope, you don’t feel loved like a husband, and if it doesn’t change you intend to leave when the time suits you? Because you’d upset her apple cart? Eat dinner alone some more? Get the “cold shoulder”? Get called a perv? 

And please, for the love of God, do not beg…


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> No, and I'm not going to either. I have enough headaches without adding THAT to them.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, but I won't be following through on your suggestion.
> Copper


Copp my man, in your entry post you said,

_"I have been in a sexless marriage for twenty years, but my ability to cope is failing. I find that I am becoming more frustrated and bitter, and having to swallow that is starting to affect me in ways I don't like."_

You later said if you were offered a little nooky you might not be able to turn it down. I'm just trying to help you out and recommend how get some relief while you work your way through this dry spell. And in your situation, who could blame you? I think the folks over at "coping with infidelity' would tell you to go for it big guy.
Whatjew got to lose and what's wrong with just getting a lay of the land to see where you stand. I guarantee it would help you regain the self confidence the wife has robbed you of and help relieve the stress that, by your own admission, you're under. 
One other question, is your son and daughter on spring break and how are they spending their time? I hope they are working on their writing skill while out of class. Such practice sure help me when writing legal briefs.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I think the point you are missing, is that you react to your wife's behavior. Everything you do is dependent on what she does first. 

You stated you have a plan - yet you say you hope she asks you about your behavior so you can have a discussion with her. Again - your plan is you re-act to what she does. 

You come home and there is no dinner for you. So you go in and fix your dinner and eat alone. She is ignoring you - so you go do your own thing. When she is not mad - then you eat with the family and have conversations with her. If she brings up that you are ignoring her - then you will discuss your plan with her. Can you not see how this is reactive behavior on your part? She acts - you re-act to what she does.

Stop re-acting and try being pro-active instead (controlling a situation by making things happen or by preparing for possible future problems). For example - show up early one night and take the kids out to dinner with you - leaving wife home. Don't tell her - just do it. Instead of waiting for her to come back to bed - just automatically put the blankets and pillows out for her - and go to bed shutting the door so she knows she is not welcome - even if she is done being mad - or better yet - set her up a bedroom in another room - moving all her stuff in there while she is gone one day. This is pro-active and you are calling the shots for your life - not waiting around to see what she does first and then following suit accordingly.

As far as the weight issue - I am on your side on this issue. That ball is totally in her court. As long as you are not enabling her in anyway - sabotaging her diets - and supporting her in eating the wrong foods, then there is nothing you can do if she insists upon eating herself to death.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> She intentionally excludes you from dinner. You do nothing. You “wait” for her to get over herself. This is not “addressing” the issue. This is avoiding/ignoring the issue and hoping it goes away.
> 
> And please, for the love of God, do not beg…


Ooohhh... that. You're right, I'm not addressing that. Why? 

Because it is a figment of my imagination, you see. Our son arrived home hungry, and she didn't want him go hungry, and she didn't want him to ruin his dinner with a snack, so she decided to go ahead and fix him dinner. But she didn't want to prepare two meals, so she just decided that they would all eat. 

But it's funny how this issues only seems to pop up when I have really pressed her on the intimacy issue. So I can either call her a liar when I have zero proof, or I can roll my eyes and go with it. I choose the latter. 

It's just like her sleeping in the other room these last couple of nights. It's not because she is mad, oh no. It's because she isn't feeling well and she didn't want me to catch whatever it is she has.

But like the meals, she only seems concerned about that after we have been in conflict. 

So how do you address an issue when the other party says that you are imagining things? 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Copp my man, in your entry post you said,
> 
> _"I have been in a sexless marriage for twenty years, but my ability to cope is failing. I find that I am becoming more frustrated and bitter, and having to swallow that is starting to affect me in ways I don't like."_
> 
> ...


That's right. I did say that. And that is another reason to avoid putting myself in such a situation. It is those very type of thoughts that I don't like about myself.

Combine that with my potential weakness, and I feel putting myself in a situation like that will do nothing but cause me to make a choice I will later regret or stir up additional annomisty that I can do without.

Thank you, but no.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> I think the point you are missing, is that you react to your wife's behavior. Everything you do is dependent on what she does first.
> 
> You stated you have a plan - yet you say you hope she asks you about your behavior so you can have a discussion with her. Again - your plan is you re-act to what she does.


You're right. I am mostly reactive. But allow me to explain below in your examples why what you suggest is difficult.





mary35 said:


> You come home and there is no dinner for you. So you go in and fix your dinner and eat alone. She is ignoring you - so you go do your own thing. When she is not mad - then you eat with the family and have conversations with her. If she brings up that you are ignoring her - then you will discuss your plan with her. Can you not see how this is reactive behavior on your part? She acts - you re-act to what she does.
> 
> Stop re-acting and try being pro-active instead (controlling a situation by making things happen or by preparing for possible future problems). For example - show up early one night and take the kids out to dinner with you - leaving wife home. Don't tell her - just do it.


To do something like this I would have to specifically exclude her. I would have to arrive home and tell her, because she will be there, "I'm taking the kids to dinner but you're not welcome to come along." How am I going to explain that to the kids without tearing down their mother? That is something I will NEVER do.




mary35 said:


> Instead of waiting for her to come back to bed - just automatically put the blankets and pillows out for her - and go to bed shutting the door so she knows she is not welcome - even if she is done being mad - or better yet - set her up a bedroom in another room - moving all her stuff in there while she is gone one day. This is pro-active and you are calling the shots for your life - not waiting around to see what she does first and then following suit accordingly.


This is pretty much how it worked. I made no move to encourage her stay and assisted in her moving into the other room. Though she is back in the room as of last night. 





mary35 said:


> As far as the weight issue - I am on your side on this issue. That ball is totally in her court. As long as you are not enabling her in anyway - sabotaging her diets - and supporting her in eating the wrong foods, then there is nothing you can do if she insists upon eating herself to death.


I have done all that I can to help her here. She doesn't "cheat" on her diet at home, but I know she snacks at work. She claims she is snacking healthy. I agree, nuts are healthy. But they also have a lot of calories. 

So short of sitting at her desk with her while she is at work, all I can do is advise, encourage and try to keep her motivated.


Copper


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have you looked at the book I suggested, _Hold Me Tight_?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Cop, IMHO, you have too many issues you are trying to focus on. I recommend you worry about 3 issues only:


Your wife is sick. She needs to lose weight for her health. It is affecting virtually everything else in her world. She needs to get on a plan to lose the weight, and you CANNOT take no for an answer.
Your wife needs to see a psychiatrist/psychologist to help her work through her demons that drive her to overeat. You CANNOT take no for an answer.
You need to work on yourself to stop being an enabler and a doormat. Hopefully, you are motivated to do that.

Everything else - the sex life, eating alone, sleeping alone, and any other passive/aggressive issue your wife (and you) dish out needs to be put on the back burner and not dealt with until you work on those 3 big issues first.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jld said:


> Have you looked at the book I suggested, _Hold Me Tight_?


No, not yet. 

It's been... crazy... around here. I will look into it though. 


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I must have really crossed the line the other night. I expected her to return to our bed Sunday night, and she did not. I then expected the same last night. Again, she did not. She is still "punishing" me.
> 
> I think this is the longest that we have not shared a bed. I hope she returns to our room tonight, but I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> ...


The behavior you get is the behavior you accept. If this continues to bug you, set a boundary with consequences. 

I'm three pages behind in reading, so perhaps this is already resolved. I'll read on.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Cop, IMHO, you have too many issues you are trying to focus on. I recommend you worry about 3 issues only:
> 
> 
> Your wife is sick. She needs to lose weight for her health. It is affecting virtually everything else in her world. She needs to get on a plan to lose the weight, and you CANNOT take no for an answer.
> ...


I agree 100%. I have tried everything to address #1 and #2. I just don't know what to do about it any more. So long as she refuses to even try to address her weight in an serious and meaningful way, and refuses to admit she has a problem and therefore has no reason to seek professional help, there is very little I can do.

I'm trying to address #3 now. I don't know if it will work, but it is something I've not tried before. But changes take time. The ship is beginning to right itself now and things are beginning to return to normal. Hopefully in the next few days something will begin to happen. I hope. 


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> You're right. I am mostly reactive. But allow me to explain below in your examples why what you suggest is difficult.
> 
> My examples are not difficult - they are actually quite easy - for someone who know how to stand up for himself. But they are just examples - there are many things you can do to take control back over your life -not waiting for her to act, so you can then re-act. My point remains the same. Be proactive - not reactive
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> There are many ways to take control of a situation - and your life. For pete's sake man - stand up to her childishness - stand up for yourself.


You say I would be standing up for myself. But if I were to do those things, exclude her from a meal with the children or kick her out of the bed, are you not telling me to engage in the same behavior you just called childish?

I'm not being combative, but that is the way it seems to me. Using your examples, unless I misunderstand what you are saying, you said replicate the very actions you just said I shouldn't tolerate. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I want to hit reset on this whole stand up for yourself conversation. I think people have the wrong impression of our dynamic. 

Rare it is, but when she acts like this, I think childish is a good term for it, I just ignore it. I don't feel the need to indulge her in her bad behavior. 

When she isn't acting childish, but is just recalcitrant, I do what I want and she is free to join me or not.

An example. Some years ago, I planned a 5-day trip into the mountains. It was going to be just her and me, another attempt to put some life back into our marriage. We were going to take our Healey and drive the entire length of the Blue Ridge Parkway. We were going to take it slow and stop at all the little places along the way. I arranged the entire trip and had my mother coming into town to watch the kids.

Two or three weeks before we were to leave, she decided that she wanted to go, but she didn't want to take the Healey. She wanted to take the minivan because it was more comfortable.

She was right, but part of the reason for the trip was to take the freshly restored Healey out and enjoy it. No amount of persuasion would change her mind... so I took my son instead. We had a great time and she missed out. 

If I were to truly allow her to run over me all the time, I would have knuckled under and we would have taken the van. Everyone has fixated on this one issue, when it is the exception, not the rule. 


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I want to hit reset on this whole stand up for yourself conversation. I think people have the wrong impression of our dynamic...Everyone has fixated on this one issue, when it is the exception, not the rule.
> 
> 
> Copper


If it was the exception, not the rule, this thread wouldn't even exist.

You're like a slave who's been successfully brainwashed into believing he's free. Your wife is so thoroughly adept at puppeting your entire marriage, and life, that you rarely even see the strings anymore. 

A man who stands up for himself would have changed this situation, or moved on, years ago. You seem like a very nice man, with a lot of attributes, but none of us seem to be having any success in breaking through your relationship delusions.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I agree 100%. *I have tried everything to address #1 and #2. I just don't know what to do about it any more.* So long as she refuses to even try to address her weight in an serious and meaningful way, and refuses to admit she has a problem and therefore has no reason to seek professional help, there is very little I can do.
> 
> I'm trying to address #3 now. I don't know if it will work, but it is something I've not tried before. But changes take time. The ship is beginning to right itself now and things are beginning to return to normal. Hopefully in the next few days something will begin to happen. I hope.
> 
> ...


"Wife, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I love you and I am committed to stick with you for the rest of my life provided that you are willing to do the same. What I will not do is to stick around and watch you kill yourself with food. If you want to lose the weight and get healthy, I'm ready to go to war by your side. If you refuse, then I refuse to stay in this marriage and watch you die. I want to spend many years with you. I want to do so much with you as we live our lives. What I do not want to do is bury you within the next 5 - 10 years especially when it is easily preventable."

Something like that perhaps.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Copper, the example with the Harley and what you mentioned as "childish" behavior are BPD hallmarks...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Combine that with my potential weakness, and I feel putting myself in a situation like that will do nothing but cause me to make a choice I will later regret or stir up additional annomisty that I can do without.
> 
> Thank you, but no.
> 
> ...


The thing is if you get hold of the right one, you won't care if you may later regret it or the amount of animosity you stir up. In fact, you'll be hoping she hitches her wagon to another horse. The danger is you've starved yourself so much, in your environment anything would look good. But to hear you tell it, it couldn't be worse. I've got another idea the you and her may go for. I'm saving it for later.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> "Wife, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I love you and I am committed to stick with you for the rest of my life. I will stick around and watch you kill yourself with food. If you want to lose the weight and get healthy, I'm ready to go to war by your side. If you refuse, I'll stay in this marriage and watch you die. I want to spend many years with you. I want to do so much with you as we live our lives. What I do not want to do is bury you within the next 5 - 10 years especially when it is easily preventable, despite your lack of will and self discipline ."


If you'll forgive me Plan, I've edited your post to reflect something our man Copper my go for.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> "Wife, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I love you and I am committed to stick with you for the rest of my life provided that you are willing to do the same. What I will not do is to stick around and watch you kill yourself with food. If you want to lose the weight and get healthy, I'm ready to go to war by your side. If you refuse, then I refuse to stay in this marriage and watch you die. I want to spend many years with you. I want to do so much with you as we live our lives. What I do not want to do is bury you within the next 5 - 10 years especially when it is easily preventable."
> 
> Something like that perhaps.


And we are back with threats of leaving. I won't do this. 

If or when I decide to leave, I will just present her with papers and leave. No threats. No recriminations. No take backs or do overs. 

If the only reason she changes is because I threaten her, that is the wrong reason. Even if she does change, she will likely resent me and my high-handed methods.

You know what I would do if she were to do something like this to me. "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Copper, the example with the Harley and what you mentioned as "childish" behavior are BPD hallmarks...


Maybe. If I could ever get her into counseling, maybe they could help with that if what you believe is true. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> A man who stands up for himself would have changed this situation, or moved on, years ago. You seem like a very nice man, with a lot of attributes, but none of us seem to be having any success in breaking through your relationship delusions.


I have been unable to convince her to be more intimate, that is true. If I don't push that button, we get along great. No problems, no fights. To me there is more to marriage than just sex.

You're a lucky guy if your partner gives you everything you want, willingly and cheerfully, and never says no, I'm not doing that.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> I've got another idea the you and her may go for. I'm saving it for later.


Oh goody! I can't wait.  


Copper


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I have been unable to convince her to be more intimate, that is true. If I don't push that button, we get along great. No problems, no fights. To me there is more to marriage than just sex.
> 
> You're a lucky guy if your partner gives you everything you want, willingly and cheerfully, and never says no, I'm not doing that.
> 
> ...


"If I don't push that button, we get along great. No problems, no fights. To me there is more to marriage than just sex."


So you have said - over and over. Umm...why are you here again?? :scratchhead: 

Just quit pushing that button - and life is good for you ...


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I want to hit reset on this whole stand up for yourself conversation. I think people have the wrong impression of our dynamic.
> 
> Rare it is, but when she acts like this, I think childish is a good term for it, I just ignore it. I don't feel the need to indulge her in her bad behavior.
> 
> ...


We can only go by what you have presented in this thread!! And according to your thread - as far as sex in your marriage - her running all over you is the rule!


----------



## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

I just saw this thread and haven't read all of it but will when I get home.

Brother I'm right there with you. You and I are in the same situation. I'm also 52, have two teenagers I adore in spite of them being teenagers and I've been in a roommate only marriage since 2002. I was just like you and tried to convince myself it could be fixed somehow. I did everything I knew how to save the marriage but she wasn't on board. And people told me how my passive wife was walking all over me and I didn't believe it. Eventually I realized they were right. I was allowing her to do this. Not work. Not cook. Not clean, Not have sex. For all those years I allowed it.

I filed for divorce 2 years ago but for reasons beyond my control I'm still not divorced. But it's close. Probably in the next 2 months it'll be done. I still live at home and I have daily thoughts of is this really what I want to do? Sometimes I try and convince myself (like you) that's it's "not that bad" and I can tough it out. But when I REALLY envision staying another 10 years until my kids are through college....I realize I just can't. I'm miserable now and there's no reason to think it would get any better if I "tough it out".

I'm taking the same financial hits as you. She's getting half my retirement, alimony, child support and our house with over $100K in equity. Heck I want another motorcycle so bad I'm ready to steal one. I even found one I can afford a week ago but I won't do it because I want out of this marriage worse. Every day I think about withdrawing the divorce petition and keeping what I've worked for. But it ain't worth it. I keep thinking of that saying I read here "There's a reason divorce is so expensive. Because it's worth it!"

I know one thing for certain. If I don't go through with it, I'll never have any chance of finding happiness with a woman again.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> An example. Some years ago, I planned a 5-day trip into the mountains. It was going to be just her and me, another attempt to put some life back into our marriage. We were going to take our Healey and drive the entire length of the Blue Ridge Parkway. We were going to take it slow and stop at all the little places along the way. I arranged the entire trip and had my mother coming into town to watch the kids.
> 
> Two or three weeks before we were to leave, she decided that she wanted to go, but she didn't want to take the Healey. She wanted to take the minivan because it was more comfortable.
> 
> She was right, but part of the reason for the trip was to take the freshly restored Healey out and enjoy it. No amount of persuasion would change her mind... so I took my son instead. We had a great time and she missed out.


Except it wasn't really about putting life into your marriage it was more about you driving a rather small car. Considering your wife's extreme largesse Your insistence that you go with a car that would be very cramped and uncomfortable for your wife's build.

If this was really about putting some life back into your marriage you would have shown some consideration for her physical reality, yet it wasn't and you didn't.

You told your wife your car was more important than her, you behaved dismissively towards her, and subsequently punished her by enjoying the activity without her. Those are not the actions of a loving man, you are not the innocent victim here.

Your behaviour is also toxic to your relationship, you also bear some considerable responsibility for your own marital problems as well.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Personal said:


> Except it wasn't really about putting life into your marriage it was more about you driving a rather small car. Considering your wife's extreme largesse Your insistence that you go with a car that would be very cramped and uncomfortable for your wife's build.
> 
> If this was really about putting some life back into your marriage you would have shown some consideration for her physical reality, yet it wasn't and you didn't.
> 
> ...


I agree. No pun intended, but neither want to address the elephant in the room. Such a fvcking mess...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> We can only go by what you have presented in this thread!! And according to your thread - as far as sex in your marriage - her running all over you is the rule!


Okay. You will get no argument on that statement. You're right. In that area, I have made absolutely no progress. 

The only progress I made was to harass her enough that she finally gave in. But then the sex is so bad I would wonder why I even bothered.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> If this was really about putting some life back into your marriage you would have shown some consideration for her physical reality, yet it wasn't and you didn't.


So, let's see. If I give in to her demands, I let her walk all over me. When I stand up and do what I want, I am showing her no consideration.

Have I got that about right?


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Just quit pushing that button - and life is good for you ...


You're right. It is pretty good for me. I wish I could take that an be happy. I feel selfish that I can't. I know I have a lot. Why can't I be happy with that?

That's a failing on my part.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I agree. No pun intended, but neither want to address the elephant in the room. Such a fvcking mess...


And the elephant is what? Her weight? Her lack of sex drive? Or something else?


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> So, let's see. If I give in to her demands, I let her walk all over me. When I stand up and do what I want, I am showing her no consideration.
> 
> Have I got that about right?
> 
> ...


I don't know that I agree with his interpretation, but you're trying to see inconsistencies so you can justify ignoring us. Stop.

The dynamic was the same. While you didn't "capitulate", you didn't get what YOU wanted either: you went without her. While this may seem to you like you "punished" her, if she didn't want to go in the car in the first place, you actually caved to her. She got to not have to be in THAT car. 

There was no "work" put into solving the issue amicably between the two of you. And from this vantage point, she got what she wanted (not having to be in the car). 

Something constructive would have been renting a more comfortable and spacious roadster. THAT would be a "compromise". Not one of you gets everything that they want, and the other sucks it up. Not walking away, or ignoring, or determining that the other is just being childish and can "come back when they fix themselves". 

Are you receiving what I'm transmitting here?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I agree. No pun intended, but neither want to address the elephant in the room.





CopperTop said:


> And the elephant is what?


Don't lose your sense of humor Copp.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You say I would be standing up for myself. But if I were to do those things, exclude her from a meal with the children or kick her out of the bed, are you not telling me to engage in the same behavior you just called childish?
> 
> I'm not being combative, but that is the way it seems to me. Using your examples, unless I misunderstand what you are saying, you said replicate the very actions you just said I shouldn't tolerate.
> 
> ...


COPP ever heard the phrase "Fight Fire with Fire"?

Seems applicable NO ?

How about "Doing the same thing and expecting different results "

You know what that defines right ?

That's where you are Bud.

You are fighting a battle on two fronts.

One is with your wife and the other is with yourself.

That's a lose lose

55


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> And the elephant is what? Her weight? Her lack of sex drive? Or something else?
> 
> 
> Copper


It's her health. Her obesity is causing a whole slew of problems. Can't you see it? All these other issues you have are being caused by the obesity. Her BP, sugar and circulation are probably in bad shape. She's eating herself into a grave. Wake up. Before you give us excuses, just don't. All words, no actions.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I don't know that I agree with his interpretation, but you're trying to see inconsistencies so you can justify ignoring us. Stop.


I see inconsistencies because they are there. Stand up for yourself man! Don't let her walk all over you! Have you no self respect? Grow a pair! Oh, but not this time. This time you did it wrong.




ET1SSJonota said:


> The dynamic was the same. While you didn't "capitulate", you didn't get what YOU wanted either: you went without her. While this may seem to you like you "punished" her, if she didn't want to go in the car in the first place, you actually caved to her. She got to not have to be in THAT car.
> 
> There was no "work" put into solving the issue amicably between the two of you. And from this vantage point, she got what she wanted (not having to be in the car).
> 
> ...


I wasn't punishing her. I wanted her to go. I tried every compromise other than taking a different car. That was the original point of the entire trip. When I bought that car, I told her when it was done I wanted to drive it down the parkway. 

After two years of work, as the car neared completion, she seemed excited about the trip. So I asked her to go. And she said yes. So I changed my plans. It went from a 2 day road trip over a weekend to a 4 or 5 day mini-vacation.

I set the trip up, took care of everything, made arrangements for my mother to come into town to watch the kids. I made sure that the longest day in the car was just a little over four hours. We had enough time each day so we could stop all along the way, anywhere she liked.

Then, two or three weeks before we leave, she suddenly changes her mind. No A/C in the car. No radio. Seats won't recline so she can sleep. No enough room to carry everything she wanted to take. None of these facts changed from the moment I had bought the car. I had worked for more than two years and spent more money than I care to think about restoring that car for this very trip. I wasn't willing to give that up.

That was maybe five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly. I have suggest since that we go to the mountains again. Not the same driving trip, but just a vacation. Nope. Not interested. BUT, she had no problem at all hopping in the van and driving 19 hours each way to spend a three day weekend with her family this summer.

I will agree that the van is more comfortable than the Healey. But it isn't THAT much more comfortable.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's her health. Her obesity is causing a whole slew of problems. Can't you see it? All these other issues you have are being caused by the obesity. Her BP, sugar and circulation are probably in bad shape. She's eating herself into a grave. Wake up. Before you give us excuses, just don't. All words, no actions.


I don't disagree. The problem is, how do you get her to change her ways. 

Other than threatening to leave her if she doesn't change, which I will not do, I have tried every other thing I can think of. If you have another idea, let me have it and I will try it.


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I see inconsistencies because they are there. Stand up for yourself man! Don't let her walk all over you! Have you no self respect? Grow a pair! Oh, but not this time. This time you did it wrong.


You see inconsistencies because you want to. How many have WE pointed out of yours? Does that mean you are wrong or lying? Nope. It means that we can see things from different angles. I already pointed out how there may have been no inconsistency – you chose to perceive it and use it as a reason to discard anything related to the situation. 

As others have mentioned, why are you here if you continually “reject out of hand” any advice given? You’ve been patted on the back, told you are a good man, in a bad position, etc. 
The next step is to actually DO something about it – and you don’t really seem to want to. At some point, the beaten down abused person has made a conscious decision to just accept it. You seem there. So again: chemically castrate yourself, and live out the rest of your “blissful” marriage not missing what you weren’t getting anyway. And keep all your “stuff”. 

You seriously haven’t addressed the why not to this, as it seems to solve the only problems you’ll actually cop to.



CopperTop said:


> I wasn't punishing her. I wanted her to go. I tried every compromise other than taking a different car. That was the original point of the entire trip. When I bought that car, I told her when it was done I wanted to drive it down the parkway. ..
> ..I will agree that the van is more comfortable than the Healey. But it isn't THAT much more comfortable.
> Copper


1.That was the point of the trip, to YOU. Not to her. While I 100% understand and respect that as an avid car guy, you’re still completely missing the point. You guys don’t work things out. You rugsweep and move on. Terrible, terrible way to deal with things. 

2.You are not morbidly obese. You do not have the numerous body ailments that come with it. You have NO IDEA how it actually feels to compare those two vehicles under those conditions. This is not a suggestion that you should have taken the van. It means there was room for compromise. 

3.You mentioned she’s a procrastinator and doesn’t do anything until she has to. I’m surprised she gave you several weeks notice of the issues instead of telling you just before pulling out of the driveway. That being said. 

Over and over again we point out the extremely unhealthy dynamic. What are you doing about it?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I don't disagree. The problem is, how do you get her to change her ways.
> Copper


You don't my man. Plenty of folks have went down the tubes trying to get their sons, daughter, spouses, friends, kinfolk, and neighbors to change. Until she wants to you're pissing in the wind.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I don't disagree. The problem is, how do you get her to change her ways.
> 
> *Other than threatening to leave her if she doesn't change, which I will not do,* I have tried every other thing I can think of. If you have another idea, let me have it and I will try it.
> 
> ...


Guess you're at an impasse. She does not respect you due to years of rug sweeping and enabling. Because of that, you have no other cards to play. Better learn to find new ways to cope then.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I wasn't punishing her. I wanted her to go. I tried every compromise other than taking a different car. That was the original point of the entire trip. When I bought that car, I told her when it was done I wanted to drive it down the parkway.
> 
> After two years of work, as the car neared completion, she seemed excited about the trip. So I asked her to go. And she said yes. So I changed my plans. It went from a 2 day road trip over a weekend to a 4 or 5 day mini-vacation.
> 
> ...


You honestly consider these the actions of a good wife?

Or even a decent human being?


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

The ironic thing here is that your wife does exactly what you should be doing. She sets boundaries and then delivers consequences.

You digress from her preferred approach for little sex, she runs away from the family. Boom. Action = consequence.

She doesn't want to go to the mountains in your ratty ol' roadster. Boom. She's staying home.

You continue to press the sex issue. Boom. No dinner for you.

She delivers consequences when you violate her boundaries. When she crosses your boundaries, your only answer is to rug sweep until she gets enough distance from your transgression to minimize the importance.

You seem to translate drawing boundaries and standing up for yourself as somehow unfair, something that would poison the relationship. So my question to you is this: If she can draw boundaries and make demands of you, why are you precluded from acting in the same fashion?

I believe that - as your wife - she either (1) should be intimate with you on a somewhat regular basis or (2) Offer a reasonable explanation why this is not possible. This would not be a big deal if this issue was not important to you. Your sustained presence through this thread suggests this issue is top of mind for you.

No one is asking you to be unfair to your wife. I think what everybody would like to see for you is the ability to make changes in the relationship that level the playing field between you and your partner - putting your needs and desires on equal footing. Until you recognize that you deserve that equal footing - and are willing to stand up for it - nothing is going to change.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jaquen said:


> First off I've been morbidly obese, so I know the challenges. At my highest I was even bigger than your wife, but have since lost over 100 lbs.
> 
> It is a struggle, one I dealt with since childhood, so I know. But you don't roll over and just say "well it's normal for people to give up, so it's all on you". You stand and you fight.
> 
> We deal with it together, openly and honestly. The emotional fall out, her psychological addiction to food, how being fat has affected both of us at different times in our lives, the limitations, the body image issues, the shame, all of it has been on the table and will remain so.





Plan 9 from OS said:


> Cop, IMHO, you have too many issues you are trying to focus on. I recommend you worry about 3 issues only:
> 
> 
> Your wife is sick. She needs to lose weight for her health. It is affecting virtually everything else in her world. She needs to get on a plan to lose the weight, and you CANNOT take no for an answer.
> ...





Personal said:


> Except it wasn't really about putting life into your marriage it was more about you driving a rather small car. Considering your wife's extreme largesse Your insistence that you go with a car that would be very cramped and uncomfortable for your wife's build.



Copper,

I abbreviated jacquen's post. It was generous that he shared so much of his personal struggle with this very same issue. Don't you find his own staunch treatment of himself and his wife as inspirational?

I think OS's post is very helpful too. You are "all over the map" a bit. Which is great for venting. Go right ahead. But as far as action is concerned; you should really focus on those three items. Get counseling for yourself. Not a cheapo, over-the-phone dealie. Like I said before; get a good one. If nothing else, it will give you a real life person to talk too about these personal, marital issues. And hopefully, you would get trained, professional insight into how/why you "picked" such a lifemate.

I'm not car-savvy. I had to search on "Healey". I was really surprised that you thought a 300-lb person could comfortably sit in that vehicles passenger seat for a prolonged sight-seeing journey.

Does Personal perhaps have an insight here? Do you think *subconsciously* you enjoyed inviting your morbidly obese wife to travel with you in a James Bondish sportscar for days on end? Knowing full well she would either be hεllishly uncomfortable; or she'd have to decline. And you and your son could go without her. Yay!! 

Consciously, you cannot admit this to yourself. It's shameful.

But it's also perfectly human and fallible and understandable.

These types of impulses, along with the envy of others' sex lives and the "creeping darkness" you feel alone at night; are all (to me anyway) you getting in touch with your real anger and real feelings in general. Though these are the feelings we don't like to admit to: I'm very glad you are having them Copper. They are your connection to your emotional reality.

Not the persona you maintain with your wife and kids of "good guy" who can take it patiently with a smile.

I know you want to be that good guy. Your desire is sincere.

But your other "darker" feelings led you to post on TAM.

Venting your sexual starvation, initially. But then releasing all the other details of your wife's hold over you in every other facet of your life really.

And you continuously defend her and her actions.

You don't want to openly dislike her. Even to a group of anonymous internet strangers.

You keep pretending that it's really all okay and don't worry about poor ol' Copper; look, see how unfortunate his "kind, caring, sweet" wife has so many issues she has to deal with.

I want you to win somehow Copper. A hard-working, loyal, physically fit husband and devoted dad.

You deserve reciprocal consideration from your wife. As a married man you are entitled to some form of regular sexual release with her.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> The ironic thing here is that your wife does exactly what you should be doing. She sets boundaries and then delivers consequences.


Hear, hear.

She's flat got him saying, "what else can I do for you my queen?".


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Allow me to catch everyone up.

I have spent the night in the hospital. I took C2 to the emergency room last night. I have some rudimentary medical training and I thought she was having a heart attack.

After hours of tests, etc, they discovered that the right side of her heart is enlarged and damaged. This has happened in the last 5 years as it wasn't on the last x-ray of her chest taken about 5 years ago.

Right now she is sleeping comfortably and is stable. A cardiologist is supposed to look at the results of the tests either today or tomorrow and decide on what, if any, treatments may help her. 

I had to come home and get my son off to school. There is no bus service to his school and he is too young to drive. I will be returning to the hospital later. They think they are going to release her today.

She is on "bed rest." She is to remain as immobile as practical. The way they explained it to us is she can get up to go to the bathroom, but other than that, minimal standing or walking about. This is continue until we are told otherwise. 

I probably won't be back here for a while, if at all. I'm not going away mad, and I am thankful for everyone's help. But all the problems I thought I had have just paled in comparison to this one.

So thank you all. Good luck and best wishes.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> I abbreviated jacquen's post. It was generous that he shared so much of his personal struggle with this very same issue. Don't you find his own staunch treatment of himself and his wife as inspirational?


I do. I wish he could give me the words to get my wife on board, to get her to put forth the effort to take care of herself.





intheory said:


> I think OS's post is very helpful too. You are "all over the map" a bit. Which is great for venting. Go right ahead. But as far as action is concerned; you should really focus on those three items. Get counseling for yourself. Not a cheapo, over-the-phone dealie. Like I said before; get a good one. If nothing else, it will give you a real life person to talk too about these personal, marital issues. And hopefully, you would get trained, professional insight into how/why you "picked" such a lifemate.


I don't feel like I am all over. I have pretty much stated, from the beginning, that I'm not ready to leave for a variety of reasons (financial, kids, I still care etc). I try to be reasonable and compromise when I can, and I try to understand her point of view. I stand up for myself in most cases. I don't play games and refuse to use extortion to try to introduce change. She wasn't always like this. If I don't poke and prod on the intimacy issue we get along well.

Everyone has said I'm still doing the same things that hadn't worked in the past. I think that was true, up until now. I took Always suggestion to give her what she says she wants. But that is a slow process and it takes time time work.





intheory said:


> I'm not car-savvy. I had to search on "Healey". I was really surprised that you thought a 300-lb person could comfortably sit in that vehicles passenger seat for a prolonged sight-seeing journey.
> 
> Does Personal perhaps have an insight here? Do you think *subconsciously* you enjoyed inviting your morbidly obese wife to travel with you in a James Bondish sportscar for days on end? Knowing full well she would either be hεllishly uncomfortable; or she'd have to decline. And you and your son could go without her. Yay!!


No. The car is, in my opinion, surprisingly comfortable once you are in it. The trip was originally set for just me, and she was fine with that. When she expressed an interest in going, I invited her along. But then she wanted to change the rules. I tried to compromise. I extended the trip from 2 days to 4 or 5 to keep the drives short and so we could make plenty of stops along the way. I told her with the exception of that we had to be at a certain motel where we had reservations, we could to pretty much anything she wanted during the day. I tried to reach an agreement in any way I could, other than giving up the whole purpose for the trip in the first place. 




intheory said:


> Consciously, you cannot admit this to yourself. It's shameful.
> 
> But it's also perfectly human and fallible and understandable.
> 
> ...


I don't dislike her. If I disliked her my decision would be easy. Walk. But I don't want to walk. Except in the marriage bed, I enjoy her company a great deal. 

Yes, late at night, I get frustrated. Not angry really, but frustrated that I can't break through the wall between us and I wonder if it is worth it anymore. I can't get my mind around why she feels the way she does. She loves me. I know she does. She wants me with her. So why the wall? What happened that has made her pull back from me in this one area. If she is so unhappy with me, why won't she talk to me about it? Or, failing that, why won't she leave? She must want to stay married or she would just leave, right? 





intheory said:


> You keep pretending that it's really all okay and don't worry about poor ol' Copper; look, see how unfortunate his "kind, caring, sweet" wife has so many issues she has to deal with.


Honestly, I never thought too much about it until I came here. She has her issues, but her weight is her issue and I don't worry overmuch about it. I am there, ready to help her the moment she is ready to do something, but I can't do it for her. 

The other... I don't know. I was hoping my plan, of pulling back and showing her what a friend rather than a husband would look like would jumpstart a change. But not now. I don't think this is the time. She needs my support more than ever now.





intheory said:


> I want you to win somehow Copper. A hard-working, loyal, physically fit husband and devoted dad.
> 
> You deserve reciprocal consideration from your wife. As a married man you are entitled to some form of regular sexual release with her.


I agree. But she didn't. And that was the crux of our problem.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Over and over again we point out the extremely unhealthy dynamic. What are you doing about it?


What I was going to do was not be quite the forgiving loyal guy she was used to seeing. The one that was always standing there, waiting to take her back. I was going to be her friend. The best possible friend I could be, but still just her friend. 

It may have done no good at all, but it would be change in our relationship. But that was before last night. If this turns out okay, and she is free to return to normal activities, I may still try this. 

But not today.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> You honestly consider these the actions of a good wife?
> 
> Or even a decent human being?


This, taken alone. No. And that is why I refused to compromise but so far. 

Fortunately, these type of thing don't crop up very often. All the things I have said, taken together, may add up to five or six times in the 26 years we have been married. 


Copper


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm sorry for your wife's health problems Copper, but maybe something good will come of this. Hopefully, it will be the wake up call she needs to take better care of herself. Please keep us updated.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. Perhaps this will be the type of major event that triggers a new chapter in how your wife addresses her health and open a new chapter in your relationship. Of course, those thoughts and concerns move to the back burner for now. Your family is lucky to have you as a rock of stability during these times.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Allow me to catch everyone up.
> 
> I have spent the night in the hospital. I took C2 to the emergency room last night. I have some rudimentary medical training and I thought she was having a heart attack.
> 
> ...


Copper,

After just enduring my own heart problems two weeks ago, I urge you to make sure a cardiologist reviews your case today. I can't imagine they will let her out of the hospital unless they know her heart is functioning well. An x-ray will not tell you anything except possibly the size of her heart. They would need an echocardiagram in order to see how the muscle is working. 

I do find it strange that they would put her on bed rest without know the exact nature of the damage to her heart. Do they think she had a heart attack? I'm surprised they are not doing a nuclear stress test. I had both an echo and nuclear stress test. My echo was clear, but my stress test was abnormal and led to a angiogram that showed 3 blocked arteries. I had two stents and a baloon angioplasty on the third and they are encouraging me to get moving. That's why I'm surprosed they would let her leave the hospital without a firm diagnosis. 

The good news is that she got a warning before the deadly heart attack. I weigh more than 100 pounds less than your wife, and was still given the stern lecture on diet and exercise. This may be the louder wake up call she has needed.

It may also show you what you have to look forward to if you stay with her. At least you'll be able to control her diet if she can't get out of bed. Make sure to ask the dr. exactly what she should be eating and only give her what is on the approved list.

Hopefully something good comes out of this. I sure hope so, for your sanity.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Scary! I hope she can get the help she needs to get the issues resolved quickly.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Thank you all for the well wishes. 

She is still in hospital, waiting on the cardiologist. 

To answer a couple of questions. Remember, I'm not a dr, and I didn't stay in a holiday inn last night.

When we arrived at the ER, the first thing they did was make sure she wasn't having a heart attack. Then x-ray. They saw the enlargement, then everyone got really excited. They whisked her away and did some kind of sonogram on her. Using this machine, which they said is like what they do on pregnant women, they could watch the heart work. Somehow, using "Doppler" they could measure the pumping force of the heart. 

After that, they seemed to calm down. The heart is abnormal, but it was working well enough I guess. 

The bed rest thing is only until they figure out what to do. The ER doc said it was to reduce the stress on the heart as much as possible why they try to figure it out. I said bed rest, but she is allowed to sit up. She just isn't supposed to be up and moving around any more than necessary.

She's scared. You can see it in her eyes. I'm trying to stay upbeat for her. 

I'm home, having just fetched my kid from school. Dinner is next, then he goes to his martial arts class. I'm going to try to catch an hour's nap in the car before I bring him back home. Hopefully, by then, the cardiologist will have been by and C2 can come home.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Hopefully, this episode will be just that and she can return home soon. 

That look of fear in her eye could be a positive for you, in a perverse way. She's facing real consequences from a lifetime of poor lifestyle choices. 

In discussing the situation after the crisis passes, try to frame everything in the context of "the choices she makes." You are there and willing to provide as much support as possible. You want to grow old with her. But it's her choices - and her choices alone - that will determine her fate.

Don't do the guilt stuff: "Do you want to be around for your grandchildren?" She will know all that. Frame it as the choices she needs to make. If she openly embraces a more healthy lifestyle by her own free accord, it is more likely to stick. Essentially, Mother Nature is the "bad guy" here, delivering the consequences and possibly allowing you to remain in your familiar and comfortable role of supporting her.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Thoughts are with you Copp

Perspective Huh !!!

55


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She's scared. You can see it in her eyes. I'm trying to stay upbeat for her.
> 
> I'm home, having just fetched my kid from school. Dinner is next, then he goes to his martial arts class. I'm going to try to catch an hour's nap in the car before I bring him back home. Hopefully, by then, the cardiologist will have been by and C2 can come home.


Well, I'm glad she is scared. She should be.

And it's not surprising that this is happening. It would be surprising if it *didn't* happen.

If she is bedridden for an extended period of time; is there any chance that one of her family members could come to give you a hand; so that you don't have to do _everything_?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Well, I'm glad she is scared. She should be.
> 
> And it's not surprising that this is happening. It would be surprising if it *didn't* happen.
> 
> If she is bedridden for an extended period of time; is there any chance that one of her family members could come to give you a hand; so that you don't have to do _everything_?


They released her a couple of hours ago. She is home and in bed. 

The good news is she is going to be (mostly) okay. She has some heart damage, but it isn't so severe as to be life threatening. We will know more tomorrow after she talks with her primary care physician. The cardiologist is supposed to send him his recommendations.

The prescription is to take it easy over the weekend. No moving about any more than necessary. No driving. She is supposed to sit or lie down as much as possible for the next several days. The rest we will get her from doctor tomorrow. 

There seems to be something screwy going on with her blood pressure (again). It is both too high and too low. If I understood what they were telling us, the pressure is too high and they are going to have to modify her blood pressure meds, but it is also too low. 

I'm so loopy from the lack of sleep I probably have some of that wrong, but upper number was too high and the lower number was too low. That much I remember for sure. 

But to answer your question. No. No family close, and her mother is in too frail of health to be any help anyway. 

Hopefully, if she isn't so messed up she can't exercise, this will get her going on doing something about her weight. I know she is very clingy at the moment, needing a lot of reassurance that everything is going to be okay. 

And to whoever said no guilt tripping. I agree. None of that. That's not how I operate. 

Thank you again, to everyone, for the well wishes. 


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Get some sleep. Good luck with everything. 

I suspect that she will be motivated to change at least some behavior patterns. The big question will be whether these will be temporary or more permanent. 

Remember, you have no control over her decisions. As you have always done, though, you can make it easier for her to make good decisions. Best of luck.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I hope she recovers well, but takes this scare as a stark warning to take her health far more seriously.





CopperTop said:


> Hopefully, if she isn't so messed up she can't exercise, this will get her going on doing something about her weight.
> 
> Copper


Again, the vast majority of weight loss is attributed to creating a deficit with food. Exercise actually plays a large role in health, but a minor role in weight loss. Even if your wife is bed bound for awhile she can still lose fat by eating at a deficit, consuming less calories than she's burning. At her weight she's using a high amount of energy just to sustain her body, even sedentary. Since you'll be more in charge of the food this is a great time to clean the house out of her trigger foods and start to shift the entire household to a healthier profile.

Please, both of you, take this scare very seriously. There seems to be time to turn the ship around before it's too late. You have to take an aggressive, bold, unrelentless position about doing all you can now to save your wife and the mother of your children. The passive position will not work. Make it now about the health and well beig of the whole family, not just your wife.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> But to answer your question. No. No family close, and her mother is in too frail of health to be any help anyway.
> 
> Hopefully, if she isn't so messed up she can't exercise, this will get her going on doing something about her weight. I know she is very clingy at the moment, *needing a lot of reassurance that everything is going to be okay. *


Copper,

That's too bad that there isn't anyone who can lend a hand at this time.

You are going to be doing all of the parenting, cooking, cleaning, working and nursing. Please make time for yourself; at _least_ getting enough rest.

I know (very well), that you want to be kind and considerate to your wife; but you know, everything is not going to be okay.

Not unless she makes MAJOR changes to her life at this point.

How I hope this experience is an epiphany for her.

Just a heads up; she will probably not want to live on juicing and salads. You may have to watch out for her somehow, someway, sneaking junk food. Maybe involving a friend, or the kids -- I don't know.

It may be an uphill battle, so I'm trying to alert you in advance of what you may be up against. Old habits die hard and so forth.

Very best wishes, Copper.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Any news today Copper?

I'm very surprised that the primary care doctor is relaying the instructions of the cardiologist. Usually, the cardiologist will see his own patients and just report to the PCP.

The good news is that most heart issues are improved with exercise. I can't imagine what she could have going on that would result in them putting her on modified best rest. Especially if she didn't have a heart attack.

I had a nuclear stress test on a Wednesday afternoon. It showed blocked arteries, but the severity could not be determined until I underwent an angiogram. They were going to send me right to the hospital, but I begged for a day to get things in order. I was told that I needed to "take it easy" that day. Nothing stressfull. No exercise or sex.

I had the angiogram on Friday morning that showed 3 blocked arties. 2 at 95% and one at 85%. I had stents put in, and spent the rest of the day in the hospital, but even with all that, I was encouraged to start light exercise almost immediately. It's been 2 weeks today, and I feel so much better. I have to wait 2 more weeks to get back to full use, but I am walking on the treadmill every day.

They provided me with a new diet to follow. I actually think that not having a choice makes everything easier. Hopefully, your wife will feel the same way.

I am a terrible patient and absolutely hate to be babied. While C2 might need some help right now, please stay on top of what the doctors want her to do, and don't baby her too much. That's kind of how she ended up in this predicament.

It would also be a great time to revisit the gastric bypass procedure. As long as she weighs 300 pounds, her heart is going to have to work too hard. Quick weight loss seems imperitive in this case.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> I hope she recovers well, but takes this scare as a stark warning to take her health far more seriously.
> ...
> ...
> 
> Please, both of you, take this scare very seriously. There seems to be time to turn the ship around before it's too late. You have to take an aggressive, bold, unrelentless position about doing all you can now to save your wife and the mother of your children. The passive position will not work. Make it now about the health and well beig of the whole family, not just your wife.


You would think so, but I don't know. When I came up from the basement after working out, she was eating a Stouffer's chicken and rice meal. One of those frozen meals that we have for the kids to fix for a quick meal when everyone is running in different directions. 

She was hungry, didn't want to wait on me to finish my exercise, didn't want to interrupt me, couldn't "cook" to prepare her own salad, which is what I told her I was making for both of us, so she just decided to have that. I looked at the box... 330 calories. Less than I expected, but it was still loaded with sodium and fat. I just hung my head and went to the shower. 

I SWEAR I don't understand her. There was plenty of fresh fruit in the fridge. Couldn't she have had that? What is is going to take?

I have taken over the cooking, temporarily I hope because I can cook, but I don't enjoy doing so. For dinner she had a piece of grilled chicken with less than a teaspoon of low cal Asian dressing brushed on it, nuked fresh frozen green beans, and water. She ate it without complaint. But I can tell I am going to have stay top of her.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> That's too bad that there isn't anyone who can lend a hand at this time.
> 
> You are going to be doing all of the parenting, cooking, cleaning, working and nursing. Please make time for yourself; at _least_ getting enough rest.


Thanks. I really crashed last night. I was at almost 40 hours with no sleep when I went to bed. I slept like the dead. Today is much better.





intheory said:


> I know (very well), that you want to be kind and considerate to your wife; but you know, everything is not going to be okay.
> 
> Not unless she makes MAJOR changes to her life at this point.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'm already fighting that battle. Not junk food so much as the wrong food. 

She is a changed person, but I'm not sure if it is a net positive or a net negative. 

The positive is she is much more loving. She really craves me to hold her, and that is VERY nice. Much different than it has been in a long time. 

The downside is I think she is using this to make me jump. The Dr. never said NO activity. He said minimal activity. But today she hasn't move from her chair except to go to the bathroom, her computer, or to the table. 

If she wants something, she calls me to get it for her. I'm letting that ride for the moment because we didn't hear from the doctor today (Grrrr!) about what the cardiologist had to say. But unless he tells me this is how it is going to have to be, I am going to have to put my foot down about this doing nothing for herself business. 

Part of it is she has always been this way. When I'm sick, I just want to suffer in peace. When she is sick, she wants to be waited on hand and foot.

Doing that for a few days with a cold is one thing, but I'm not doing that for the next ten years until I have a doctor tell I have to.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> You would think so, but I don't know. When I came up from the basement after working out, she was eating a Stouffer's chicken and rice meal. One of those frozen meals that we have for the kids to fix for a quick meal when everyone is running in different directions.
> 
> She was hungry, didn't want to wait on me to finish my exercise, didn't want to interrupt me, couldn't "cook" to prepare her own salad, which is what I told her I was making for both of us, so she just decided to have that. I looked at the box... 330 calories. Less than I expected, but it was still loaded with sodium and fat. I just hung my head and went to the shower.
> 
> ...


What diet does the cardiologist want her to follow? What is the final diagnosis! Sounds like she might need the help of a nutritionist. You may need to really lay down the law with her.

Your children shouldn't have to watch their mother kill herself with bad choices.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Any news today Copper?
> 
> I'm very surprised that the primary care doctor is relaying the instructions of the cardiologist. Usually, the cardiologist will see his own patients and just report to the PCP.


I have no idea. It could be that we went to the emergency room, so they just made sure she wasn't dying and released her. It could be something with the insurance too. I know all treatments are supposed to start with her PCP for whatever reason.





Workathome said:


> The good news is that most heart issues are improved with exercise. I can't imagine what she could have going on that would result in them putting her on modified best rest. Especially if she didn't have a heart attack.


Beats me. I thought we were going to get an answer today about what she is and is not supposed to do, but the doctor never called. We called him, and was told they would call us back. They never did. Now it will be Monday before we hear.

The bed rest thing was very early in the process, and maybe it isn't necessary, but they didn't tell us to change, so that is what we are going with. The doctors seem competent, but busy. You could tell we were not at the top of their list for care after they realized she wasn't at death's door. And that's okay. 





Workathome said:


> I had a nuclear stress test on a Wednesday afternoon. It showed blocked arteries, but the severity could not be determined until I underwent an angiogram. They were going to send me right to the hospital, but I begged for a day to get things in order. I was told that I needed to "take it easy" that day. Nothing stressfull. No exercise or sex.


Yeah. That's more or less what they told us. Take it easy. That's where we are at for the moment because they never changed that.





Workathome said:


> I had the angiogram on Friday morning that showed 3 blocked arties. 2 at 95% and one at 85%. I had stents put in, and spent the rest of the day in the hospital, but even with all that, I was encouraged to start light exercise almost immediately. It's been 2 weeks today, and I feel so much better. I have to wait 2 more weeks to get back to full use, but I am walking on the treadmill every day.
> 
> They provided me with a new diet to follow. I actually think that not having a choice makes everything easier. Hopefully, your wife will feel the same way.
> 
> ...


We were supposed to get all those answers today but didn't, much to my annoyance. 

C2 has always wanted to be babied when she is sick. This is no exception. I have been going with it yesterday and today, and I will continue with it over the weekend, but I'm not spending the rest of our lives with me waiting on her hand and foot unless the doctor tells me that is the only way.

The not knowing... that's the worst part.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> What diet does the cardiologist want her to follow? What is the final diagnosis! Sounds like she might need the help of a nutritionist. You may need to really lay down the law with her.
> 
> Your children shouldn't have to watch their mother kill herself with bad choices.


Don't know yet. There is some SNAFU and either the cardiologist didn't call her doctor, or her doctor didn't call us. Either way, we only know that her heart is working well enough that she didn't have to stay in the hospital.

We are going with the last thing they told us, which is to take it easy and don't do any more moving around that necessary. That may be because of the weird problem of having blood pressure both too high and too low.


Copper


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> . . . . . When I came up from the basement after working out,* she was eating a Stouffer's chicken and rice meal.* One of those frozen meals that we have for the kids to fix for a quick meal when everyone is running in different directions.
> 
> . . . *couldn't "cook" to prepare her own salad, *which is what I told her I was making for both of us, so she just decided to have that. I looked at the box... 330 calories. Less than I expected, but *it was still loaded with sodium and fat.* I just hung my head and went to the shower.
> 
> ...


Copper,

Everything in your house now has to be "nonfat", "lite", "diet", "sugar free", and fresh produce.

Even for your son. I think he's old enough that that won't hurt his development. And your daughter is a college aged young woman, so she won't suffer from eating lighter food.

Just how everyone has to bear the consequences of your wife's obesity issue.

She didn't assemble salad ingredients; 'cause that would *entail effort*. [She could sit at the sink/counter to do it].

I do understand her. She didn't have fresh fruit from the 'fridge, 'cause she prefers greasy, salty, starchy Stouffer's entrees.

She will have to readjust her palate to light, fresh, low-calorie food. That requires discipline, denial and a bit of "suffering" during the change.

Not likely your wife will do this willingly.

You will be burdened with the responsibility of "making" her do it. Exhausting.



CopperTop said:


> The positive is *she is much more loving.* She really craves me to hold her, and that is VERY nice. Much different than it has been in a long time.
> 
> The downside is *I think she is using this to make me jump*. The Dr. never said NO activity. He said minimal activity. But today she hasn't move from her chair except to go to the bathroom, her computer, or to the table.
> 
> ...


Of course she is much more loving. She has just realized how much she needs you.

And I anticipate the pattern of making you jump is to be your future. I have no doubt of it. She will use guilt to keep you in line.

Yes, she has always been this way. Why change now; with a ready made excuse.

I think it is very likely you will be doing this the rest of your life.

Unless you *radically* change how you deal with your wife.

------------------------------------

I'm so glad you got some sleep. Don't deny yourself basics like rest.

How are the kids handling this?

Sorry you're having to deal with medical office bureaucracy. Unfortunately, a lot of the time, the patient has to be the one to keep calling back to find out their test results, and push things along. It's not right, but there it is.

Hang in there.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> You would think so, but I don't know. When I came up from the basement after working out, she was eating a Stouffer's chicken and rice meal. One of those frozen meals that we have for the kids to fix for a quick meal when everyone is running in different directions.
> 
> She was hungry, didn't want to wait on me to finish my exercise, didn't want to interrupt me, couldn't "cook" to prepare her own salad, which is what I told her I was making for both of us, so she just decided to have that. I looked at the box... 330 calories. Less than I expected, but it was still loaded with sodium and fat. I just hung my head and went to the shower.
> 
> ...


Copper,

I took a quick look at the nutritional information in the chicken and rice meal your wife ate. 

https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/stouffers/grandmas-chicken-and-vegetable-rice-bake

OMG, she can't eat crap like that. If she has high blood pressure as you mentioned, she should be on a low fat, low sodium diet. While one serving of the dish does have 330 calories, the box actually contains two 1 cup servings. If she ate the whole box, (as most people would) that's 660 calories, 28g of fat, and a whopping 1480mg of sodium. Since she has high blood pressure, she should consume no more than 1500mg of sodium per day.

I know you want to be the nice guy and take care of her, but if you want her to live a productive life where you don't have to wait on her hand and foot, you really need to make some consequences for her actions. She doesn't seem to want to do anything on her own. You should actually be mad at her right now because she did this to herself. 

It's been 14 days since my heart procedure. I haven't eaten a single thing I shouldn't during that time, and I don't intend to. I got the message. While I have some extra weight, it's not even close to what your wife is carrying.

I think it's time for some serious counseling. Her life is depending on it. She seems to be relishing the role of the "sick person". *She has used her health many times in the past to get you to toe the line and go along with things her way. Now that she can play the cardiac card, you're never going to get sex from her. Write that down, because she now has the perfect excuse to never have sex with you again.*

She has showed you who she is, and that's someone with some pretty severe mental health issues. If you really want to be the guy who takes care of her and fixes things, you will give her an ultimatum that she needs to take her health seriously or you are out. This may sound mean, but it's the only way that she is going to get through this. Your way, with regard to her health, has not worked in the past. Time to try something new.

Most PCP's have Saturday hours. I would call there today to get some answers or at least get an appointment for Monday to get this worked out. You need to be in the room and make sure the dr. knows the kind of nutritional choices your wife is making. Perhaps he can send her to a nutritionist and you can also push for some kind of counseling in front of the dr.

The dr. also needs to get tough with her and let her know that her body can't take any more of the abuse she is heaping on it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

When my father was recovering in the ICU back in the 1970's after a heart attack at 55 another patient in the ICU lit up a cigarette ... Others had food smuggled in . Major Dad must have gotten the message as he lived another 30 years. 

Start by emptying the house of all "temptations" and enforce all shopping and cooking activities... Track food and talk to a nutritionist.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

john117 said:


> Start by emptying the house of all "temptations" and enforce all shopping and cooking activities... Track food and talk to a nutritionist.


I don't think you should do this. C2 is a grown woman. She has to make her own choices. You can't babysit everything she eats, especially since she is not by your side 24/7. If she wants to eat herself into an early death, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Do you really want to spend your time being the "food police"? In the end, she will resent you for it. In the past, she has done just enough exercise to make you think she is on the right track. She has eaten right in front of you to make you think she's doing better. The amount of calories it takes to maintain a 300 pound body it extraordinary. She has to be eating a lot more than you know about. Her choices yesterday show that she is either incredibly stupid about nutrition, or she just doesn't care. Or it was a way to get you to caretake for her even more. How dare you go exercise when she's hungry. She also knew you were making a salad, and obviously didn't want to have that.

She is getting lots of attention now, and will use this to get exactly what she wants. You have tried being her cheerleadder about her health from the beginning. It hasn't worked. 

Instead of trying to "help her". Let her know that her choices are no longer acceptable to you and you will not stand by and watch her kill herself. Do you really want to be forced into a caretaker role at your young age?

Is C2 going back to work tomorrow? 

Let her know that you need a sound plan going forward in order to stand by her through this.

*Your way hasn't worked. Please be willing to try something else. Once she knows she could lose you, she may make some effort to change. If she is not willing to make any effort, is this really someone you want to be married to?*


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Copp The only real way to control our food is to make it at home yourself

Olive oil good

refined sugar/carbs poison

lean meat

turkey has more protien per gram than chicken

No dairy

No animal fats

Think diabetic diet even if blood sugar is okay

Green leafy veggies are best

Absolutly zero processes foods

min 30 minutes exersise per day star with a simple walk after dinner

No fruit loaded with Sugar is sugar no matter the source

No white bread loaded with bleached and bromated wheat flour

Bromated products are banned in many countries

Read the god damned ingredents decks The longer it is the worse it is

Look at a generic commercially baked white bread label absolute poison

Take this advice from a culinary/product development professional

I have experiance with regulatory/USDA FDA food labeling

also nutritional panels for manufactured food products.

55


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Copper,
> 
> I took a quick look at the nutritional information in the chicken and rice meal your wife ate.
> 
> ...





john117 said:


> When my father was recovering in the ICU back in the 1970's after a heart attack at 55 another patient in the ICU lit up a cigarette ... Others had food smuggled in . Major Dad must have gotten the message as he lived another 30 years.
> 
> *And who knows, back then the doctor, might even have lit up*
> 
> Start by emptying the house of all "temptations" and enforce all shopping and cooking activities... Track food and talk to a nutritionist. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:





Workathome said:


> I don't think you should do this. C2 is a grown woman. She has to make her own choices. You can't babysit everything she eats, especially since she is not by your side 24/7. If she wants to eat herself into an early death, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Do you really want to spend your time being the "food police"? In the end, she will resent you for it.
> 
> *Workathome, I am in agreement with john117. What we want is C2 to regain health. If there is any type of sugary/salty/greasy/starchy garbage in the house: she will eat it. She has zero discipline.*
> 
> ...


Copper,

Really good input from workathome. I second almost all of it, fwiw.


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

CT-Your wife's heart episode can actually be an opportunity in disguise. 
Speak directly with her PCP and the cardiologist if possible. Ask them if it would be to her advantage to lose weight and exercise. They will say emphatically "yes". She needs to be told by her doctors that her weight is a life and death situation. Her weight will now be treated by medical professionals as a medical problem. Have them hook her up with a registered dietitian and have the dietitian give her a very specific diet program to follow. Have them hook her up with the cardiac rehab facility associated with the hospital where she will be given a progressive cardiac exercise program to follow. Make sure to demonstrate to the professionals, doctors, and especially her, that you are completely on board with this approach and will help her 110% so that she will regain her health.

Your wife knows she is fat. She probably resists losing weight because you want her to and because it is hard. She has had a life defining moment. If she has to change to live, she won't lose face by following a medical professional's instructions. This removes you from the weight loss equation except as her biggest cheerleader.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Template said:


> CT-Your wife's heart episode can actually be an opportunity in disguise.
> Speak directly with her PCP and the cardiologist if possible. Ask them if it would be to her advantage to lose weight and exercise. They will say emphatically "yes". She needs to be told by her doctors that her weight is a life and death situation. Her weight will now be treated by medical professionals as a medical problem. Have them hook her up with a registered dietitian and have the dietitian give her a very specific diet program to follow. Have them hook her up with the cardiac rehab facility associated with the hospital where she will be given a progressive cardiac exercise program to follow. Make sure to demonstrate to the professionals, doctors, and especially her, that you are completely on board with this approach and will help her 110% so that she will regain her health.
> 
> Your wife knows she is fat. She probably resists losing weight because you want her to and because it is hard. She has had a life defining moment. If she has to change to live, she won't lose face by following a medical professional's instructions. This removes you from the weight loss equation except as her biggest cheerleader.


I know, but she has to take the opportunity. A couple of years ago she was told by her doctor she was going to DIE if she didn't get some weight off. She ignored him, and no amount of effort on my part made any difference. Now, unfortunately, I think she has all but given up. Yesterday she called herself "the walking dead."

I've been trying to get her out of the house for a short walk. This heart thing didn't happen overnight, so whatever problem she is having today, she had it a couple of weeks ago when she was walking. I can't see how light exercise is a bad thing. But she refuses to go. She refuses to do anything except sit. She complains that just walking makes her light headed. They released her from the hospital, so she must not be at deaths door, but she acts like she is ten heartbeats from dying.

I know she's scared. She is so much more... loving? I'm not sure how to describe it, but the distance that she kept from me over the last 10 or 15 years is gone. Obviously I'm not pressing her to be intimate, but she seems softer, less prickly somehow. She is much more like she was when we were first married. I want to help her, I'm trying to help her, but I don't know what to do for her any more. 

She is supposed to go back to work tomorrow, but I don't know if she will. I'm not sure, at this point, of anything, of what the future holds for us. Right now I'm just trying keep us afloat until we get some answers and a plan.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I know, but she has to take the opportunity. A couple of years ago she was told by her doctor she was going to DIE if she didn't get some weight off. She ignored him, and no amount of effort on my part made any difference. Now, unfortunately, I think she has all but given up. Yesterday she called herself "the walking dead."
> 
> I've been trying to get her out of the house for a short walk. This heart thing didn't happen overnight, so whatever problem she is having today, she had it a couple of weeks ago when she was walking. I can't see how light exercise is a bad thing. But she refuses to go. She refuses to do anything except sit. She complains that just walking makes her light headed. They released her from the hospital, so she must not be at deaths door, but she acts like she is ten heartbeats from dying.
> 
> ...


She sounds depressed. You need to get her into counseling ASAP. 

Her situation is now critical. Her unwillingness to fix her weight problem is suicidal. You have not been able to fix it your way. She deperately needs you to stand up to her and make her do something.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> She sounds depressed. You need to get her into counseling ASAP.
> 
> Her situation is now critical. Her unwillingness to fix her weight problem is suicidal. You have not been able to fix it your way. She deperately needs you to stand up to her and make her do something.


That's always been the trouble... getting her to do something she doesn't want to do. If she doesn't want to do something, she ignores all attempts to affect change. She has always been passive aggressive this way.

I have nothing to use to "force" the issue, nothing to make her want to change. Stop helping around the house? She couldn't care less. I keep the house clean because I want it clean, not her. Same with her car. Maybe stop keeping the yard? Again, she won't care. She hasn't stepped foot in the grass in 10 years. 

I suppose I could stop doing her laundry, or now cooking for her, or pull back and not be as supportive as I have been, but I'm afraid pulling my support now will only drive her farther into the doldrums, and the first two are the punitive type actions that everyone condemned her for doing.

The only thing she does now is watch movies, play her computer games, and sleep. Once we talk to the doctor tomorrow (I hope) we can see where we are and how to move forward. 

I have been trying to get us into counseling, off and on, for several years. She was never interested. She never thought she needed counseling because I was the one that was abnormal. So, we didn't go. But I can try again. All she can do is say no... again.

I think it is all going to comes down to what the doctors say. I am hopeful, but not confident, that anything will change. I can feel myself trying to "check out" because of her attitude since this started. I am fighting the urge because I know she is scared and she needs me. But if she continues like this for a long period of time, I don't know that I can stay engaged in the same way I am now. 

THAT... scares me. Am I going to be one of those guys that walks away because his partner became ill? I thought I was better than that.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> THAT... scares me. Am I going to be one of those guys that walks away because his partner became ill? I thought I was better than that.
> 
> 
> Copper


She did not become ill. She made choices to get to this point. She has a food addiction. Like all addiction, it affects those around the addict.

In previous posts, you said your daughter is just like your wife. Is she obese as well? If she is, that's an even better reason to get this situation under control.

I know you don't want to hear this, but the only chance you have of getting her to change is to threaten to make her life less comfortable. You need to tell her that life as it is right now is not what you signed up for. Tell her that you're not willing to live like this anymore. You need her to start counseling immediately to work on both the weight issue and her control issues. You may have to be willing to walk away in order to save her. 

If she is willing to just give up, you don't need to stick around for that ride. Again, this is not an "illness" you are walking away from. She was warned 3 years ago that this would happen. It shouldn't be any surprise to her.

Of course you should wait until you get answers from the dr. tomorrow, but I think they are going to say that her cardiac and blood pressure issues are being caused by her weight and eating habits. If she changes those she will improve her health greatly. 

If you want to fix this situation, you are going to have yo step outside your comfort zone since staying there has not solved the problem.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> In previous posts, you said your daughter is just like your wife. Is she obese as well? If she is, that's an even better reason to get this situation under control.


No. She is slim... both the kids are.

When I said she was like her mother, I was referring to how she goes through life. If she doesn't want to so something, it is nearly impossible to get her to do it. She can find more reason to NOT do something than anyone I know... other than C2.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> That's always been the trouble... getting her to do something she doesn't want to do. If she doesn't want to do something, she ignores all attempts to affect change. She has always been passive aggressive this way.
> 
> I have nothing to use to "force" the issue, nothing to make her want to change. Stop helping around the house? She couldn't care less. I keep the house clean because I want it clean, not her. Same with her car. Maybe stop keeping the yard? Again, she won't care. She hasn't stepped foot in the grass in 10 years.
> 
> ...


Now is no longer the time to push her to buy into big changes, relationship-wise. You're in survival mode & information-gathering mode.

She's depending on you to manage things. So, step up and manage them the best way you see fit. Not in a way to seek her approval. But in the way that is best for you and your family. If that means ditching the ice cream and cookies, so be it. You're in charge. Don't make apologies for being in charge.

Don't talk about change. Or asking her to buy into the change. Just lead and make the change. Don't ask her permission. Don't declare that there's a new sheriff in town. Just be the new sheriff. Frozen crap. It's gone if you say so. Same with other junk food. 

She complains. Fine, let her complain. If she wants her cheese snickerdoodles so bad, she's going to have to divorce you and move out. "Our family is better off if we're all eating healthy" - you say if she challenges you. And, "We've done diet management your way for the past 20 years. How's that worked out for you? We're going to try it my way for awhile - for everybody."

This is the time to take leadership. Don't worry about negotiating the relationship details. Just live it for awhile and re-evaluate her responses a couple months down the line. Lead, guide, observe. Take note of what you see. But don't challenge her to adopt action. Make it her choice to follow. Things will be clear to you soon enough.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Now is no longer the time to push her to buy into big changes, relationship-wise. You're in survival mode & information-gathering mode.
> 
> She's depending on you to manage things. So, step up and manage them the best way you see fit. Not in a way to seek her approval. But in the way that is best for you and your family. If that means ditching the ice cream and cookies, so be it. You're in charge. Don't make apologies for being in charge.
> 
> ...


This won't work because Copper doesn't get home until 7:00 every night. She might behave herself from 7:00 on, but she has proven that she doesn't want to make good choices.

She has also proven that she is not interested in changing, and no amount of "throwing away the cookies" is going to change her if she doesn't want to change. copper can't fix this by taking charge because it's not possible for him to be in charge of what C2 eats.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> No. She is slim... both the kids are.
> 
> When I said she was like her mother, I was referring to how she goes through life. If she doesn't want to so something, it is nearly impossible to get her to do it. She can find more reason to NOT do something than anyone I know... other than C2.
> 
> ...


So you mean she's like you? :lol:


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Workathome said:


> This won't work because Copper doesn't get home until 7:00 every night. She might behave herself from 7:00 on, but she has proven that she doesn't want to make good choices.
> 
> She has also proven that she is not interested in changing, and no amount of "throwing away the cookies" is going to change her if she doesn't want to change. copper can't fix this by taking charge because it's not possible for him to be in charge of what C2 eats.


That's true. I agree with you, Workathome, that C2 is going to sneak junk food; one way or another. I mean up to and including ordering it on Amazon and having it delivered. Then lie to Copper about what the recent delivery contains. Are you reading that, Copper?

But if he does everything he can, right now, to enforce a change (somebody's got to take charge), then maybe this is the last chance for C2 to lose weight and get healthy. If she is still overeating a month from now, then it won't be long before nature takes it's course. And Copper will know he did everything he could.

Copper, do you think that bariatric surgery is an option, if C2's heart can stand it? I think she needs all the help she can get.

People do gain weight back after bariatric surgery. But it does help others to finally shed the pounds and learn new habits.

This is so difficult for you Copper. Your mind and emotions are being overwhelmed. Do you have any friends, maybe "Ann", who you can talk to and get a bit of support, irl?

Are your kids supportive of you in any way? They are old enough; and you are such a good dad. I'm not saying to burden them with your adult responsibilities. But I would imagine they care about what's going on; and in their way can help share the load.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> That's true. I agree with you, Workathome, that C2 is going to sneak junk food; one way or another. I mean up to and including ordering it on Amazon and having it delivered. Then lie to Copper about what the recent delivery contains. Are you reading that, Copper?


I don't think it will be as extreme as all that, but it is true that I can't control what she eats for breakfast or lunch while at work. That is why I have always said, she has to WANT to do this. My trying to force this change on her is never going to work. 





intheory said:


> But if he does everything he can, right now, to enforce a change (somebody's got to take charge), then maybe this is the last chance for C2 to lose weight and get healthy. If she is still overeating a month from now, then it won't be long before nature takes it's course. And Copper will know he did everything he could.
> 
> Copper, do you think that bariatric surgery is an option, if C2's heart can stand it? I think she needs all the help she can get.
> 
> People do gain weight back after bariatric surgery. But it does help others to finally shed the pounds and learn new habits.


I don't know if it is still an option now or not. Hopefully we will know more today. But this option was proposed a couple of years ago when the doctor told her she had to lose the weight or she was going to die. She didn't want to do it and decided to lose the weight the old fashioned way. She started and did great for a while, losing almost 50 pounds, but then got discouraged, quit, and put the weight back on.





intheory said:


> This is so difficult for you Copper. Your mind and emotions are being overwhelmed. Do you have any friends, maybe "Ann", who you can talk to and get a bit of support, irl?


I suppose. I don't know that I will. Nothing she can do, really, other than listen.





intheory said:


> Are your kids supportive of you in any way? They are old enough; and you are such a good dad. I'm not saying to burden them with your adult responsibilities. But I would imagine they care about what's going on; and in their way can help share the load.


As much as they can. They helped with the fetch and carry this weekend. And they have always offered encouragement and support for her. Part of the problem is she is so defensive. If they (helpfully) try to point out she shouldn't be eating this, that or the other when she is supposed to be dieting, she lashes out at them and it hurts their feelings. She's not nasty, really, but points out how destructive and unhelpful it is when they point out her failings, etc. I know they are just trying to help, but I have advised them in the past, and they have taken the message to heart, to not say anything more about it.

I don't think they are going to be too much on board with eating like she will have to, and why should they? They're not overweight. Why should they have to give up Italian or Mexican food, which we all love, just because their mom shouldn't eat it. It seems to me to be terribly unfair to them. If I can avoid eating that kind of stuff (most of the time) she should be able to as well.

Last night the kids had three cheese Ziti and ham. C2 and I had shredded broccoli salad with grilled chicken and pecans, tossed with a teaspoon of low-cal Asian dressing. If you were 19 & 15, which would you rather eat? 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So you mean she's like you? :lol:


Yes. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But I stand by my conviction you can't introduce real change with threats or blackmail. 

Even if she were to change, I believe she would resent me for acting the way I did, and I wouldn't blame her. I would feel the same way. I want my relationships to be built on trust, understanding and compromise... not threats and intimidation.


Copper


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think it is great you are eating with her, copper. It would be good for your kids to, also.

_Though, I have to say, if it were me, I would substitute beans for the chicken, and skip the nuts. _

And you are right to avoid threats and intimidation.

I think you should just be as truthful as possible with her, and be a model of integrity. You want to feel good about yourself, whatever happens. Following your conscience is a pretty good path to that.


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

CT,
Your wife is going to die sooner rather than later if she continues her behavior.
She has a food addiction and is most likely, also depressed.
Your efforts to prompt her to change have been ineffective thus far.
She has had a life changing "come to Jesus" event. You need to take advantage of that.
You need to advocate for her with her medical team and insist they throw the full spectrum of specialty treatment at her. That means a psychiatrist to address her probable depression, teamwork between her PCP and cardiologist to put her on a cardiac exercise program with measured accountability and a bulldog dietician who will design a program that is compatible with weight loss and healthy foods that your entire family can eat. You need to get on board and get your children on board. This is their mother. They can go for a walk with her after supper if you are not yet home. They can encourage her and root for her, too. They can impress on her that they would like her to be at their weddings and hold her grandchildren. As for you, this is a long, uphill climb. You will need to be the liaison between she and the doctors. You need to go to all of her appointments until there is some forward momentum with her condition. You will need to hold the doctors accountable, as well. They may try to throw their hands up in frustration, but they have the entire medical world to draw resources from. Hold their feet to the fire to continue to find ways to circumvent her protestations. If all else fails, take her on a date you arrange ahead of time. Go to the lawyer to update your wills, the funeral home to pick out caskets and arrange funeral services. Tell her you want to be prepared as you fear she may die sooner rather than later.
As for your kids preferring ziti to salad, do they prefer ziti to having their mother? That is not a good excuse at all. Healthy food is healthy food for the entire family. If it is really such a sacrifice for them to give up ziti and ice cream for salad and fresh fruit salad, what can I say? Seriously. If food is that important to them, perhaps they NEED to be on a program as well. Kids 15 and 19 have social lives outside the home and plenty of opportunity to eat pizza and burgers away from the view of their mother.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I don't think they are going to be too much on board with eating like she will have to, and why should they? They're not overweight. Why should they have to give up Italian or Mexican food, which we all love, just because their mom shouldn't eat it. It seems to me to be terribly unfair to them. If I can avoid eating that kind of stuff (most of the time) she should be able to as well.
> 
> Last night the kids had three cheese Ziti and ham. C2 and I had shredded broccoli salad with grilled chicken and pecans, tossed with a teaspoon of low-cal Asian dressing. *If you were 19 & 15, which would you rather eat? *


Copper,

I totally agree. Healthy, slim 15 and 19 year olds shouldn't have to follow the same diet plan as a morbidly obese 50+ woman.

I just meant ridding the house of all high-caloric food is probably going to be necessary for C2 to lose weight. C2's lack of discipline and selfishness is affecting everybody.

I apologize. Earlier I said that your son would probably be okay with eating lighter. That's wrong. I don't think 15-year-old boys are done growing, usually. So, he _should_ have access to a full range of foods. But that doesn't mean they have to be "junk". 

Super-lean meats and *non*-fat dairy. Lots of fresh fruit. *Whole grain *cereals and breads. None of that is garbage food.

Usually overweight people binge on junk. That has to stop.

Let your kids go out every once in a while for Mexican or pizza. You can't have it in the house. Your wife will gorge on it, I promise you.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Yes. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But I stand by my conviction you can't introduce real change with threats or blackmail.
> 
> Even if she were to change, I believe she would resent me for acting the way I did, and I wouldn't blame her. I would feel the same way. I want my relationships to be built on trust, understanding and compromise... not threats and intimidation.
> 
> ...


So you would rather she die than step outside your box. Your way has not worked for a long time. You have already tried that.

One would have thought her world was rocked last week when the medical incident happened. Apparently, it wasn't. You need to do something that absolutely rocks her world and makes her see that she needs to decide to change.
*
Not much point in having a relationship built on trust, understanding and compromise if C2 is dead!*


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jld said:


> I think it is great you are eating with her, copper. It would be good for your kids to, also.
> 
> _Though, I have to say, if it were me, I would substitute beans for the chicken, and skip the nuts. _
> 
> ...


All I have done is double the amount that I prepare for myself and now she is eating the way I normally eat. I'm not doing anything extraordinary and I'm not asking her to do more than I am willing to do.

I'm hoping she takes over the cooking again tonight. Otherwise it is going to be late dinners for everyone. If she does, I will continue to encourage her to eat what I'm eating instead of what the kids are eating. In addition to the salad last night, I had an orange and a yogurt for dessert. The orange and yogurt satisfies my sweet tooth without blowing the calories completely away. I will confess to having my single, after dinner, dark chocolate Hershey's Kiss... because dark chocolate is good for you, don'tcha know.  

The problem isn't so much the quantity of what she eats, it's the quality. If she would start eating my meals, she should start losing the weight in a nice, slow, controlled manner. Add in some light exercise and it should come off even faster, and be good for her to boot. 

I have pointed out to her in the past, if she would lose just 1 pound a week, just one, she would be back at her wedding weight in less than 36 months. 

The hard part, as always, is getting her to start, then especially to stick to it. It's hard, I know, but I'm nothing special. I love to eat. I still drool when I go out to lunch and everyone is eating burgers and I'm eating some form of salad. But if I can do it, anyone can.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I don't think they are going to be too much on board with eating like she will have to, and why should they? They're not overweight. Why should they have to give up Italian or Mexican food, which we all love, just because their mom shouldn't eat it. It seems to me to be terribly unfair to them. If I can avoid eating that kind of stuff (most of the time) she should be able to as well.
> 
> Last night the kids had three cheese Ziti and ham. C2 and I had shredded broccoli salad with grilled chicken and pecans, tossed with a teaspoon of low-cal Asian dressing. If you were 19 & 15, which would you rather eat?
> 
> ...


Your kids are 19 & 15. They should have plenty of opportunities to each unhealthy food while they are out with their friends.

Due to a recent cardiac event, I am currently on a low fat, low cholesterol diet. If my skinny 15 & 13 year old daughters ate three cheese ziti and ham at the same table I was eating at, I would not be happy. Not to mention the fact that 3 cheese ziti and ham should not even be in your house right now. C2 has not shown that she has the willpower to not eat unhelathy things.

You want to "nice" her into weight loss, but you are actually sabotaging her at the same time. The Stouffers Chicken and Rice shouldn't have been in the house either.

*Also, are you using a lot of prepackaged foods or was the 3 cheese ziti and ham home made?*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You are doing a good job. Just be consistent. Fix the proper meals, and be a model of integrity in all you do, including diet and exercise. Actions speak louder than words.

A low fat, low cholesterol diet would be great, as workathome mentioned. Broccoli and chickpeas, with an orange for dessert, would be great. Some plain baked potatoes, with steamed veggies and an apple, would be good, too. Think vegetables and whole (not refined) carbohydrates (brown rice, quinoa, sweet potatoes, etc.) A little fruit is okay. She will lose weight and get her heart in better condition.

I agree you should throw out the junk food in the house. Nobody needs it.

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> So you would rather she die than step outside your box. Your way has not worked for a long time. You have already tried that.
> 
> One would have thought her world was rocked last week when the medical incident happened. Apparently, it wasn't. You need to do something that absolutely rocks her world and makes her see that she needs to decide to change.
> *
> Not much point in having a relationship built on trust, understanding and compromise if C2 is dead!*


I understand what you are saying. I really do. But I know her better than you and I can tell you what will happen. 

"C2, I can't live like this anymore. I can't stay here and watch you eat yourself to death. If you don't change, I can't stay."

"How can you say that? You don't understand how hard it is for me! You obviously don't love me or you wouldn't be threatening to leave! Why should I even try to change if you are just going to leave if I can't do it! How do I know you won't leave anyway? You're just using this as an excuse! All you care about is yourself! You never care about me, about what I need or want!"

And now she won't even try and I will have to leave because if I tell there that, I will have to do it. This is why I don't threaten... because I don't do idle threats. If I tell her I will leave, then I will.

If I leave I would stake my life on her starting passive self-destructive behaviors, such as not preparing even semi-healthy meals, doing no exercise, and who knows what else. I am a steadying influence on her and that will be gone. Then she WILL die. 

I think *Template* (sorry for the misattribution) may have the best route out of this mess, if C2 will take it. Let the medical community be the "bad cop" while I play the "good cop," and see if we can maneuver her into taking care of herself. I don't see any other way unless she gets some really great news today, it buoys her spirits, and gives her a new outlook on life. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> You want to "nice" her into weight loss, but you are actually sabotaging her at the same time. The Stouffers Chicken and Rice shouldn't have been in the house either.
> 
> *Also, are you using a lot of prepackaged foods or was the 3 cheese ziti and ham home made?*


The prepared meals are supposed to be "emergency" food for the kids, for use when time is a problem, etc. It's that or fast food because sometimes we get jammed on time and there is no time to cook and eat before we have to be somewhere else. Tuesday & Thursday's are particularly bad because son has martial arts those night. So if C2 is a little late getting home... Those are the two nights that I always eat alone and late because there is no time for me to eat before I have to take son to his class.

The ham was purchased of course, and the ziti was homemade from a "kit." You provide the noodles and cheese, the kit provides the sauce. Mix the sauce kit with your cheese and a bit of milk, melt it down, pour it over your cooked noodles, bake 10 minutes, done.


Copper


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

On the weekend, make some dishes and put them in the freezer for nights that you don't have time to prepare a meal. Also, a crockpot can also be helpful on nights when you don't have time to cook. You could make a pot of soup or stew on the weekends for later in the week - or, you can also freeze that. There are many options rather than eating junk food and/or prepackaged food. You, as well as your wife just need to change your lifestyle.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Yes, Copper, it appears your only hope is to get the medical community to play the role of bad cop. 

You're a nice guy. We "nice guys" want everybody to like us. You don't want kids to be mad if they can't have their pre-processed ham three cheese crappola. You don't want wife to be mad if you put boundaries on her and her bad habits.

Doesn't matter if the pre-processed foods are for the kids or for your wife. Every time you reach into the freezer and pull out a pre-processed meal, you might as well be putting another nail in your wife's coffin. Having bad food in proximity - even if eaten by others - increases the temptation to "cheat" on a healthy diet program. 

I get it. It's not easy being the "bad guy." You've gotten to your place in life because it's not easy to say "No" to the people you love. This is called "enabling," and it has reached the point of life and death consequences for your family. If possible, call the nurse in your wife's doctor's office ahead of your appointment and explain the situation. Describe the need for doctor to lay down the law. 

You are being called upon to "lead" here. This really isn't about "sex" anymore. It's about leading entire family to a more healthy lifestyle. You accurately recognize the situation and your inability to drive change on your own. Be pro-active in enlisting help of those who can help effect change at this very key juncture.


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## QS1 (Jan 30, 2015)

Copper, as a former diet failure expert myself, please read the book "The Every Other Day Diet" by Dr. Krista Varady. On this diet, you eat 500 calories one day, and anything you want and as much as you want the next day. Repeat forever. Sounds extreme, but there is a lot of research backing this up, as detailed in the book. 

The key for me, was that no food is off-limits. So I did spend the first couple of weeks eating "bad" food on my eating days. Funny thing is, when it's no longer "bad" food, it doesn't taste as good. The every other day eating also cures the habit of grabbing something to eat when you sit down to watch TV, etc. Took a few months to cure my diet mentality, but now I crave healthy foods. I can't eat as much as I used to either. 

Also, for further reading, try "Intuitive Eating", by Evelyn Tribole. I don't think your wife is ready mentally for this, but it has some good information on why constant dieting doesn't work. Good information for you to have to help guide her into being an intuitive eater. 

Anyway, at least for me, the key to bring successful at dieting was killing the "good food/bad food" mentality. It just makes dieting so hard when you think you can't eat ice cream or chocolate EVER AGAIN. Especially when you remind her that at 1 lb a week, this is going to take 3 YEARS.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

QS1 said:


> Copper, as a former diet failure expert myself, please read the book "The Every Other Day Diet" by Dr. Krista Varady. On this diet, you eat 500 calories one day, and anything you want and as much as you want the next day. Repeat forever. Sounds extreme, but there is a lot of research backing this up, as detailed in the book.


I don't think this type of diet is wise for C2. With her blood pressure and potential heart issues, she could still kill herself eating badly every other day.

Copper, did you get any news from the dr. today? I would make an appointment directly with the cardiologist.

I would also review all the blood work that was done with the PCP. You both need to be involved with this. If her PCP physician sees that she has active support at home, he may be toucher on her.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

As the old saying goes, there's some good news, and there's some bad new.

The good news is C2 is going to be fine. She does have some minor heart damage, but nothing to be too concerned about at this time. There is some scale they use to measure how well a heart is working. A normal heart for her age should measure between 70 and 75. Her's is at 65. They don't get that concerned until it drops below 50.

She does have a valve that isn't working quite right, but again, it is nothing serious. They just need to keep an eye on it.

They are taking her off her blood-pressure medication for 3 days. After the 3 days she is supposed to visit the doctor for an evaluation. This is in response to the weird blood pressure problem where it is both too high and too low at the same time.

Basically this was the warning shot across her bow. She has GOT to get the weight off. They gave her the standard spiel... eat right and get some exercise, etc, etc, etc.

So that is all GOOD news. But now comes the bad news.

Remember how every said, "Throw out the junk food!"? Let me tell you how that turned out.

I didn't toss out any food. But last night I had to go pick up a few things from the market. I knew C2 was out of her soda's and she needed more, but I didn't buy any. 

She was not happy about that when I returned home without them. She complained how if she didn't drink a few along through the day she felt sick and got these terrible headaches. I have heard of this before, from other people, and I pointed out that was just her "withdrawing" from all the crap in them. Drink water or, if she had too, some fruit juice, and after a few days, maybe a week, she wouldn't feel like that anymore. 

I got the same song and dance about how I just didn't understand how hard it was, yadda, yadda, yadda.

When I got home today... there were pops in the pantry. She was feeling too bad to go do the shopping yeserday, which is her job, but she wasn't feeling bad enough to prevent her from stopping for pops. 

She had used the store's curb side service... where for a small fee, the store employee's will do your shopping for you and load your car.

Oh... and by the way... her car needed gas.

I had 2.5 hours of exercise to do tonight because I missed my hour last night. I suggested that maybe she could do it herself on her way to work in the morning.

Nope. Not feeling well enough to do that yet.

That torqued me off, so I dug in my heels. 

And she informed me, that if I didn't put gas in her car, she wouldn't be able to go to work tomorrow because it was empty. After all, the doc told her to not be moving around any more than she had to. And she is still feeling light headed when she stands up, and she didn't want to pass out at the gas station, and...

She's taking my car to work in the morning, and I will stop and fill her car up on my way to work. 

This is getting real old, real fast.


Copper


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Throw the fvcking pop out. If she buys more, throw that out too. Keep throwing out the sh!t until she gets the message. If she whines and says you don't understand, you can respond with "if you eat and/or drink this, you will die". Go broken record on her. Despite all her excuses, you keep repeating the same line that if she consumes it, she will die. 

If she complains that you are making her do too much, then you tell her "if you do not exercise, you will die". Repeat as many times as you have to.

Addicts will do and say anything to those trying to help them out in order to retain the status quo. 

IMHO, if you truly love your wife, you will help her break her addictions - whatever it takes.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

This guy is the martyr of martyrs. You guys are wasting your bandwidth. He came here not for help but for the pat on the back.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> As the old saying goes, there's some good news, and there's some bad new.
> 
> 
> This is getting real old, real fast.
> ...


OK, good. This is getting old. We pretty much know the score again now. Is the health scare a wake-up call that spurs action? Nah. No chance. Not scary enough. 

Indeed, it looks to be just concerning enough for her to use as a shield to avoid doing the stuff she doesn't want to do. You already know this, of course, but the over-under on the next sex encounter for you now stands at six months at best. 

And you know what, none of it matters. The only thing that matters is how YOU respond to this. Are you going to roll over and enable all the behaviors that drive you crazy. Or are you going to set boundaries of behavior from her that is acceptable if she wants to stay in this relationship. 

The only behaviors that you are subjected to are the ones you allow to go unchallenged. So come on back here and whine about her and you will get the same reply from the board. What are your boundaries and what are the consequences if she crosses those boundaries. 

Let me translate what I'm seeing in your posts:

Copper: "My wife won't change her behavior. Still no sex, no exercise and a horrible diet."

Tex Hears: "Copper is not setting boundaries and delivering consequences"

Stop giving us excuses why this isn't going to work. You're on a path to going back and doing all the ol' same behaviors that got you into this mess in the first place. You see it coming like a freight train. We all see it, too. Why are you so reluctant to shake up the apple cart and drive change? It's not like your historic policy has worked wonders. 

If you're happy just coming here, whining about your situation and getting a comforting pat on the back, then you're on the right path. If you want your life to improve and your family's prospects to be enhanced, it's time for you to step up.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> …. Are you going to roll over and enable all the behaviors that drive you crazy....


YUP.


MarriedTex said:


> The only behaviors that you are subjected to are the ones you allow to go unchallenged. So come on back here and whine about her and you will get the same reply from the board. What are your boundaries and what are the consequences if she crosses those boundaries.
> …
> Stop giving us excuses why this isn't going to work. You're on a path to going back and doing all the ol' same behaviors that got you into this mess in the first place. You see it coming like a freight train. We all see it, too. Why are you so reluctant to shake up the apple cart and drive change? It's not like your historic policy has worked wonders.
> …
> If you're happy just coming here, whining about your situation and getting a comforting pat on the back, then you're on the right path. If you want your life to improve and your family's prospects to be enhanced, it's time for you to step up.


Is there an echo in here…?

You’re wasting your finger energy MT.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Tex Hears: "Copper is not setting boundaries and delivering consequences"


I'm listening. Other than leaving, what consequences do you suggest? 

Not put gas in her car and allow her to lose her job (if she actually carried through). That's my consequence because I would still have to make the house payment.

Throw the pops out? They won't be there today when I get home anyway. They will be at work because that's where they always go. So I throw them out. She buys more but doesn't bring them home. Go to her work and throw them out? Can't. It's a secured facility and I don't have access.

Where C2 and I cross swords is over what is reasonable. She thinks I'm being unreasonable on the pops, for example, because they are diet and zero calories. So she sees me as trying to deny them to her for no good reason. Just because I don't like them I'm trying to force my view onto her. 

She thought it highly unreasonable that I should make her stop and put gas in her car when she was feeling dizzy all the time. She didn't want to go to work in the first place because she was feeling so bad but the doctor released her.

Now that I know she isn't dying, I'm going back to the original plan of not being quite so understanding. But I need her to start feeling better so she can't use that as an excuse to justify her actions. Right now, she feels like I am persecuting her because she isn't feeling well. I know this because she told me so last night... that "I was just being a jerk because she has been sick." 

But honestly, after the thing with the pops and the car last night, I have little hope that anything I do will work. I have nothing to offer her.


Copper


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

If she is drinking diet soda that is caffeinated (most colas, Mtn. Dew), then if she stops drinking them cold turkey, she will go through caffeine withdrawal.

The worst symptom is a headache that lasts about 3 days.

A feeling of malaise and tiredness for about a week.

The caffeine also speeds up your pulse. So, going without it, may be causing her to feel momentarily dizzy when she stands up.

Can you explain this to her?

Would it be okay with her doctor if she took aspirins for a week (to deal with the headaches) until the caffeine withdrawal is over?


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

CT-
When is the appointment with the dietician? The psychiatrist? When does she start cardiac rehab? Hold the doctors feet to the fire. If you have to take an afternoon off and have an appointment with the PCP and cardiologist on your own, do it. Let them know what she is doing at home. Tell them how resistant she is to change and how worried you are about her. Hold them accountable. They can work together to lay out a recovery program for your wife. You need to work with them, even surreptitiously, for her own good. You need a real plan with immediate, short and long term goals. She needs to have regular, recorded weigh ins and regular blood tests and bp tests so she and the docs can see her progress or lack thereof and make appropriate adjustments. This has to come from the docs with the utmost urgency. You can tell her you had no idea how bad her condition actually is and that you do not want to lose her and that you will help her follow the prescribed programs. You help her by goading the docs in the background and helping her follow the plan every day. 
The psychiatrist can help her with the depression and the food addictive behavior. There is a reason she eats to comfort herself and when that is ferreted out and worked on, this will become so much easier.
You can throw out pop and chips 'til the cows come home. That makes you responsible for what she eats. Better to tell her that she has made a poor choice in eating whatever and it is not consistent with the program to restore her health. Let it go at that. You are not the food police. She is a grown up who has made a long series of bad choices that have led to an outcome of poor health. She needs help to identify why she eats, help to transition from her current poor diet, and help to adopt a healthier lifestyle. The docs need to be the help.
Also, you have mentioned your strict workout schedule and strict diet. She may not want to adopt that kind of lifestyle. Many people hate the gym. She may not want to go because she looks bad or is afraid she will look stupid on the machines. If she has limited free time, she may not want to spend it at the gym. It is my least favorite place on earth. A cardiac rehab evaluation could get creative and start with some exercise paired with activities she might enjoy (TV while on the treadmill, music or books on tape while walking, magazines while on the stationary bike). You will not know until you get the docs involved.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> If she is drinking diet soda that is caffeinated (most colas, Mtn. Dew), then if she stops drinking them cold turkey, she will go through caffeine withdrawal.
> 
> The worst symptom is a headache that lasts about 3 days.
> 
> ...


I've tried, and I suspect she knows this, but for a week she will be uncomfortable. She is already on OTC pain meds to help her with her other various aches and pains. I have been trying to get her to stop taking so much of that stuff as it can't possibly be good for her to take over so long of a period of time, but she doesn't do uncomfortable very well.

What I'm coming to realize is she just doesn't care about her long term health. I can't understand it, but this is TWO heart attack scares in the last five or six years. But nothing is changing.

I'm about at my wits end.


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Template said:


> CT-
> When is the appointment with the dietician? The psychiatrist? When does she start cardiac rehab? Hold the doctors feet to the fire. If you have to take an afternoon off and have an appointment with the PCP and cardiologist on your own, do it. Let them know what she is doing at home. Tell them how resistant she is to change and how worried you are about her. Hold them accountable. They can work together to lay out a recovery program for your wife. You need to work with them, even surreptitiously, for her own good. You need a real plan with immediate, short and long term goals. She needs to have regular, recorded weigh ins and regular blood tests and bp tests so she and the docs can see her progress or lack thereof and make appropriate adjustments. This has to come from the docs with the utmost urgency. You can tell her you had no idea how bad her condition actually is and that you do not want to lose her and that you will help her follow the prescribed programs. You help her by goading the docs in the background and helping her follow the plan every day.
> The psychiatrist can help her with the depression and the food addictive behavior. There is a reason she eats to comfort herself and when that is ferreted out and worked on, this will become so much easier.
> You can throw out pop and chips 'til the cows come home. That makes you responsible for what she eats. Better to tell her that she has made a poor choice in eating whatever and it is not consistent with the program to restore her health. Let it go at that. You are not the food police. She is a grown up who has made a long series of bad choices that have led to an outcome of poor health. She needs help to identify why she eats, help to transition from her current poor diet, and help to adopt a healthier lifestyle. The docs need to be the help.
> Also, you have mentioned your strict workout schedule and strict diet. She may not want to adopt that kind of lifestyle. Many people hate the gym. She may not want to go because she looks bad or is afraid she will look stupid on the machines. If she has limited free time, she may not want to spend it at the gym. It is my least favorite place on earth. A cardiac rehab evaluation could get creative and start with some exercise paired with activities she might enjoy (TV while on the treadmill, music or books on tape while walking, magazines while on the stationary bike). You will not know until you get the docs involved.


QFT. This is a template for your action plan. 

Also, it might be good to get her going on some activity that is more obtainable. Does she have a SmartPhone? How 'bout having the doctor suggest her targeting 10,000 steps a day. Get her a fitbit to do that tracking. Most people walking from parking lot to office will knock out 3,000 to 4,000 steps with no problem. Getting to 10,000 steps may seem more doable than getting to the gym and hitting the weights.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Template said:


> CT-
> When is the appointment with the dietician?


Not one. Not part of her medical plan. This will be something we have to do on our own.





Template said:


> The psychiatrist?


See above.





Template said:


> When does she start cardiac rehab?


Not medically required so isn't available. Or if it is available, we will have to make the arrangements ourselves.





Template said:


> Hold the doctors feet to the fire. If you have to take an afternoon off and have an appointment with the PCP and cardiologist on your own, do it. Let them know what she is doing at home. Tell them how resistant she is to change and how worried you are about her. Hold them accountable. They can work together to lay out a recovery program for your wife. You need to work with them, even surreptitiously, for her own good. You need a real plan with immediate, short and long term goals. She needs to have regular, recorded weigh ins and regular blood tests and bp tests so she and the docs can see her progress or lack thereof and make appropriate adjustments. This has to come from the docs with the utmost urgency. You can tell her you had no idea how bad her condition actually is and that you do not want to lose her and that you will help her follow the prescribed programs. You help her by goading the docs in the background and helping her follow the plan every day.
> The psychiatrist can help her with the depression and the food addictive behavior. There is a reason she eats to comfort herself and when that is ferreted out and worked on, this will become so much easier.
> You can throw out pop and chips 'til the cows come home. That makes you responsible for what she eats. Better to tell her that she has made a poor choice in eating whatever and it is not consistent with the program to restore her health. Let it go at that. You are not the food police. She is a grown up who has made a long series of bad choices that have led to an outcome of poor health. She needs help to identify why she eats, help to transition from her current poor diet, and help to adopt a healthier lifestyle. The docs need to be the help.


All the above, while true, isn't so easy. You run into all kinds of HIPAA regulations. I have run into the problem before where the health care provider won't discuss her medical condition with me without her present. The fact I was her spouse made no difference at all. Plus, when there is no medical reason for all of that, I'm not sure how anxious they are going to be to "babysit" her. I can try, but I suspect I will be mostly howling at the moon. 

The PCP called and told her the results of the test and, I'm sure, told her again she needed to do something about the weight. I wasn't there when she took the call, but since he hammers on her every time about her weight, I suspect he did this time as well.




Template said:


> Also, you have mentioned your strict workout schedule and strict diet. She may not want to adopt that kind of lifestyle. Many people hate the gym. She may not want to go because she looks bad or is afraid she will look stupid on the machines. If she has limited free time, she may not want to spend it at the gym. It is my least favorite place on earth. A cardiac rehab evaluation could get creative and start with some exercise paired with activities she might enjoy (TV while on the treadmill, music or books on tape while walking, magazines while on the stationary bike). You will not know until you get the docs involved.


I agree. I hate the gym too. That's why I have the machines in the basement. She could do the cardio and/or weight machine and watch television. And she has in the past. But she doesn't stick with it. She gets an ache, or doesn't feel well, or gets busy, and just skips it for tonight. 

Once you start skipping, it gets easier to skip the next time. I understand that, and that is why I punish myself if I miss a workout. I did three workouts last night, one behind the other. I did my missed Sunday night workout (cardio), then I did my normal Monday night workout (weights and cardio) right behind it. 

But she's not that dedicated.


Copper


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## QS1 (Jan 30, 2015)

Do you really think she would choose to lose her job because you didn't fill up the car? Maybe she would, but I'm thinking if you called her on her bluff, she would have had to fill up the car herself. 

Also, let the diet pop issue go. If you want her to lose weight, you are absolutely right that she had to do it on her own. If you start dictating what she can and can't eat, that won't work. Please read the book I suggested. I don't share my diet with anyone in real life, because of the immediate dismissal of it as a healthy option, like I've already gotten here. But there are many health benefits to the fasting, including lower blood pressure and decreased inflammation. And it's an easy diet to live with.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> QFT. This is a template for your action plan.
> 
> Also, it might be good to get her going on some activity that is more obtainable. Does she have a SmartPhone? How 'bout having the doctor suggest her targeting 10,000 steps a day. Get her a fitbit to do that tracking. Most people walking from parking lot to office will knock out 3,000 to 4,000 steps with no problem. Getting to 10,000 steps may seem more doable than getting to the gym and hitting the weights.


Has one, and was using it for a while. She was right pleased with herself when she would meet her step goal (10,000 steps actually) but then this heart thing happened and she just quit.

I've been trying to get her back to walking with me, but no far, no success. A nice slow (she sets the pace) 1.25 mile walk, on (mostly) level ground, with me and the dog. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

QS1 said:


> Do you really think she would choose to lose her job because you didn't fill up the car? Maybe she would, but I'm thinking if you called her on her bluff, she would have had to fill up the car herself.


Honestly, I don't know. Normally, I would say no. But she has become so... recalcitrant... over the last week, I wouldn't put it past her to call in sick or something today.

I just don't understand how sick she is, you see. If I did, I wouldn't expect her to do things I should know she can't do. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Template said:


> If you have to take an afternoon off and have an appointment with the PCP and cardiologist on your own, do it.


I called the doctor's office and requested a consultation on C2's health.

They asked if she had signed the waiver that would allow them to discuss her medical condition with me. 

I told them I had no idea. They are going to pull her records and see if the waiver is on file. If not, she will have to come sign the form before they are allowed (under HIPAA) to divulge any information. They are supposed to call me back today and let me know.

I looked up the HIPAA regs, and there are certain exclusions for spouses, but they mostly apply to me being there with her and emergencies. 


Copper


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Not one. Not part of her medical plan. This will be something we have to do on our own.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So let me get this straight, she is committing slow suicide due to her weight and her doctors have no help for her other than to tell her to lose weight? Seriously? 
HIPPA will not stop you from making an appointment with her doctors and discussing what you already know about her test results. You may also report what you see her doing to further degrade her health. You may also ask them to take a more proactive stance with regard to her recovery. Doctors can write a referal for an overweight cardiac compromised patient to see a dietitian for the obvious reason, food is killing her and she needs the help. Doctors can refer a patient for psychiatric evaluations when the patient lacks the insight for proper self care and appears depressed. Doctors can refer a patient for cardiac rehab after they have had an "incident", are generally unhealthy and rehab can be of benefit to the case. These are all instances in which the insurance company will pay if the doctor recommends due to medical necessity. You do not need to tell your wife you spoke to the doctors and they do not need to tell her they spoke to you unless she specifically asks.
Sorry to be so hard on you CT. Your wife is either going to die or become so debilitated that you will have to quit your job to become a full time caretaker. Right now, you MUST advocate for her as she is obviously incapable of gaining control of her illness and condition. NO EXCUSES!
To quote Yoda, "Do. Or do not. There is no try."


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Honestly, I don't know. Normally, I would say no. But she has become so... recalcitrant... over the last week, I wouldn't put it past her to call in sick or something today.
> 
> I just don't understand how sick she is, you see. If I did, I wouldn't expect her to do things I should know she can't do.
> 
> ...


Good job on taking the first step on calling the doctors. This is progress.

Note your tone in your quote above. You get frustrated when she gives what she sees as valid excuses for not doing the tough work that needs to be done.

This is the exact same type of frustration we get when you give us excuses on why you can't take this step or that step to improve the situation.

The excuses do provide nice, juicy rationalizations for both of you that keep you from moving forward. You can say you "tried" but it's really only face-saving response. There is no "try." There is only succeed or fail. To which camp do you want to belong?

You've gone too long in your relationship where "excuses" are suitable substitutes for action. Keep moving forward on the action front. Stop take solace in excuses. Excuses are nothing more than failure in window dressing.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Template said:


> So let me get this straight, she is committing slow suicide due to her weight and her doctors have no help for her other than to tell her to lose weight? Seriously?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


They can recommend these things, but it is not a medical necessity. Anything dealing with weight loss is considered cosmetic and is not covered under insurance. Just like the weight loss surgery... not covered. 

It's not the money. We can pay for it out of pocket. But C2 and I have been down this seeking counseling road so many times that I don't even mention it anymore because I already know the response. "I don't need counseling." Maybe the dietician will be different, but we will have to seek that out and set it up ourselves. 

At the moment, I am stuck even being able to talk to them about her because of HIPAA regulations. They said they couldn't/wouldn't set up an appointment to discuss her condition until they check for the waiver.

She is supposed to go back to the doctor in a couple of days. I will try to attend and then, because she is in the room, the HIPAA rule won't apply.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Good job on taking the first step on calling the doctors. This is progress.
> 
> There is only succeed or fail. To which camp do you want to belong?


You will have to put me in fail. Because at this point, I think I have tried nearly everything except leaving. 


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> They can recommend these things, but it is not a medical necessity. Anything dealing with weight loss is considered cosmetic and is not covered under insurance. Just like the weight loss surgery... not covered.
> 
> Copper


Is this what C2 told you? In her case, weight loss surgery is not cosmetic, but life saving. I think you need to check this out again. Also, look at other health care options you may have at work that provide better coverage.

I think you have a lot more power in this situation than you think. You just need to take it back. She knows she's got you wrapped around her little finger right now. No reason for her to change.

Stop making it all so comfortable for her. Let her know that if she wants to kill herself, you'd appreciate her speeding it up a bit so you can move on!

She won't change until she has to.

You're much better off divorcing her now while she's a working woman. She'll have to take better care of herself since she'll be self supporting.

If you wait until she's disabled from a stroke, you'll be stuck with her for the rest of your life.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Is this what C2 told you? In her case, weight loss surgery is not cosmetic, but life saving. I think you need to check this out again.


Nope. Straight from the insurance company. I would prefer they pay for it, but we can afford to pay out of pocket. She still didn't have it done.




Workathome said:


> Also, look at other health care options you may have at work that provide better coverage.
> 
> I think you have a lot more power in this situation than you think. You just need to take it back. She knows she's got you wrapped around her little finger right now. No reason for her to change.
> 
> Stop making it all so comfortable for her. *Let her know that if she wants to kill herself, you'd appreciate her speeding it up a bit so you can move on!*


Damn! That's harsh. 





Workathome said:


> She won't change until she has to.
> 
> You're much better off divorcing her now while she's a working woman. She'll have to take better care of herself since she'll be self supporting.
> 
> If you wait until she's disabled from a stroke, you'll be stuck with her for the rest of your life.


Yeah... I know. But I haven't found the key to make her HAVE to change. When the only thing she wants from life is to be left alone to play her computer games, watch television, and sleep, there isn't a lot I can offer her.


Copper


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah... I know. But I haven't found the key to make her HAVE to change. When the only thing she wants from life is to be left alone to play her computer games, watch television, and sleep, there isn't a lot I can offer her.
> 
> 
> Copper


Since her wants are so different from yours, what's in this relationship for you?

You are getting a good glimpse of what your future is going to look like. She is much more likely to have a stroke than a heart attack, so that's going to leave you with a lot of care taking. Is that how you want to spend your golden years?

You could still find a fit, spry woman who likes sex and spend your golden years getting all the loving that has been withheld for you.

Your early retirement will be gone anyways, sine you'll be making up for her income and paying for someone to spend the day with her while you work.

I'd think giving her half your retirement now would be preferable to what you have to look forward to if you stay with her. We both know she isn't going to change. 

She is level set that her way is the right way. You need to tell her that you love her deeply, but you can't do this anymore and it's counseling, weight loss surgery and healthy eating from now on or you are out of the relationship. She will get mad, but in the end she will have to make some changes.

If she doesn't love you enough to even go to counseling,what are you fighting for?


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Fantastic post WorkAtHome!!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Since her wants are so different from yours, what's in this relationship for you?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I still care about her I guess. I want to make it better and get back to where we were when we were first married. 

But your last statement does kind of hit home. I don't know that I have an answer. Can't admit defeat I guess.


Copper


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

intheory said:


> If she is drinking diet soda that is caffeinated (most colas, Mtn. Dew), then if she stops drinking them cold turkey, she will go through caffeine withdrawal.
> 
> The worst symptom is a headache that lasts about 3 days.
> 
> A feeling of malaise and tiredness for about a week.


Diet sodas are a disaster much worse than caffeine. Many of the artificial sweeteners in them (notably aspertame) are highly addictive and toxic. They can be very difficult to kick, and are connected to kidney and liver dysfunction, among other things.

Worse, recent research has shown that the body responds to just the *taste* of sweet, and when you drink a zero calorie pop, you stimulate metabolism, and the body's "expectation" of calories to digest. This in turn leads to yet more over-eating.

Diet sodas are actually a diet disaster and are likely responsible for many a failed diet plan.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Copper, 

I don't much like threats either. And I think you're right that ultimately, you can't control your wife. She is an adult, she gets to make her own choices, and you would go mad if you tried to regulate her behaviours and habits. She has to want to change, and she has to want to do it for her own reasons, not yours or anyone else's.

That puts you in a very difficult position, which is made worse by her ongoing use of manipulative "poor little me" tactics to make you feel guilty and selfish.

Ask her this: Why do you want to die?

She will likely respond that she doesn't. To which the only response is "could've fooled me!". 

Because everything she's doing seems designed to put her in an early grave.


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> You will have to put me in fail. Because at this point, I think I have tried nearly everything except leaving.
> 
> 
> Copper


Divorce would not be your failure. It would be hers. 

Get her on her feet. "Stabilized" from a medical perspective. Give yourself an internal deadline. Maybe six months to a year. It would be cold to initiate a departure now. It would be good to get her to a point of normalcy. 

Work the "treat 'er like a roommate" strategy as last ditch attempt. Offer help and encouragement on dieting and exercise, as has always been the case. Let the crisis die down. 

We both know it won't change anything. But see if recent events and/or your change in approach make any difference in the relationship. Maybe it will give you something to work with. If not, it's time to start looking out for yourself. The only failure would be gutting out this care-taking role for another decade. If she doesn't care enough to take care of herself, why should you care about taking care of her. 

Also, if she can't take care of herself, she will never, ever be able to look beyond herself and address your needs. I know that you do not prefer this option, but you may have to start to slowly get yourself used to the idea over the next several months.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Options:
1) High does anti-depressants so you just don't care.
2) High fat/carb extremely rich diet to speed things along. 
3) Actually set some boundaries, and enforce them the only way a person in a relationship can.
4) Keep doing the same thing you've always done, hoping for a better result.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Have you asked your wife in lieu of the recent events and doctor's recommendations, what are_* her *_plans to address her weight and health issues? See what she says.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Options:
> 1) High does anti-depressants so you just don't care.
> 2) High fat/carb extremely rich diet to speed things along.
> 3) Actually set some boundaries, and enforce them the only way a person in a relationship can.
> 4) Keep doing the same thing you've always done, hoping for a better result.


1. No pharmacological support

2. To cold blooded

3. I'm not trying to be combative but if you have a suggestion I would love to hear it. How would you handle this situation? I set the boundary of being intimate 2 or 3 times a week, and she has to be active and engaged, and we both have to enjoy it.

She says no.

What consequences would you suggest? It can't be cruel (no belittling her), it can't be petty (no doing everyone's laundry except hers), and it can't be threatening. 

4. That is how I got into this mess in the first place.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Diet sodas are a disaster much worse than caffeine. Many of the artificial sweeteners in them (notably aspertame) are highly addictive and toxic. They can be very difficult to kick, and are connected to kidney and liver dysfunction, among other things.
> 
> Worse, recent research has shown that the body responds to just the *taste* of sweet, and when you drink a zero calorie pop, you stimulate metabolism, and the body's "expectation" of calories to digest. This in turn leads to yet more over-eating.
> 
> Diet sodas are actually a diet disaster and are likely responsible for many a failed diet plan.





always_alone said:


> Copper,
> 
> I don't much like threats either. And I think you're right that ultimately, you can't control your wife. She is an adult, she gets to make her own choices, and you would go mad if you tried to regulate her behaviours and habits. She has to want to change, and she has to want to do it for her own reasons, not yours or anyone else's.
> 
> ...


I agree on the diet drinks. I think they are worse than the real things. She has to know this. Not only have I been harping on her for years about them, she has a master's degree in chemistry.

Maybe I will ask her this question and see what she says. I will probably reword the zinger a little bit though.


Copper


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

karole said:


> Have you asked your wife in lieu of the recent events and doctor's recommendations, what are_* her *_plans to address her weight and health issues? See what she says.


No, but I should. I would like to know what she says myself.


Copper


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

If I were in your shoes I would start making plans without her

Cause she won't be around long....... very sad.

Your sons will need plans for their future .Start making them without her input.

If that doesn't get her attention well ?

I don't have a single answer for you Copp You are in a very rough place

What ever you do you will look like the bad guy

Maybe you should stop thinking about that.

55


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> 1. No pharmacological support


You haven’t tried hard enough. If junkies can get ahold of it through legal means, I’m certain that a fairly educated and intelligent person could as well. 

In case you were wondering, I was being 100% honest and not snarky before with my chemical castration – and this is the equivalent for your current troubles. 



CopperTop said:


> 2. To cold blooded


How so? It seems like it’s exactly what she wants. She’s already made the choice to kill herself. 



CopperTop said:


> 3. I'm not trying to be combative but if you have a suggestion I would love to hear it. How would you handle this situation? I set the boundary of being intimate 2 or 3 times a week, and she has to be active and engaged, and we both have to enjoy it.
> She says no.
> What consequences would you suggest? It can't be cruel (no belittling her), it can't be petty (no doing everyone's laundry except hers), and it can't be threatening.


You know, quite honestly Copper, I wish you WOULD be combative. I’m worried you simply don’t have it in you. Yours is a sad state of affairs, but at this point the only thing you’ve shown you’re capable of doing about it is complaining rather mildly on the internet. 

Your situation, despite your protestations otherwise, is far worse than most of the couples out there, for a myriad of reasons – not just “sex”. But you only see it as one thing. You’ve ingrained being the victim and then turned it somehow into this great relationship.

As much space as I’m already wasting (I can be persistent even when I see it’s futile), I won’t rehash the long list of consequences you COULD be actively pursuing that to any normal person wouldn’t fall under the “cruel”, “petty”, or “threatening” folders. But you’d just argue, conflate, or otherwise ignore them. If you really wanted to, there's 82 pages of suggestions, most of which would do you a lot of good just disrupting the terrible dynamic you have with your wife.

If I were you, I would be TERRIFIED of her becoming disabled. You think it’s bad now? How’s about her medical situation deteriorates, destroys you financially ANYWAY, AND you get to be slave boy in addition to the normal subservience you provide. Makes me want to vomit thinking about the possibility. 


CopperTop said:


> 4. That is how I got into this mess in the first place.


And yet you continue, and continue, and continue. You reject pretty much every piece of advice because it doesn’t easily fit into some defensible category. You are unwilling/unable to stand up for yourself without seeing yourself as the bad guy. You’ve made that abundantly clear. So do yourself a favor, and limit the pain through the only available means (and by available, I mean acceptable to you): chemicals. 

Besides the riveting story you’ve provided (much like a train wreck), most of your responses/rejections of all the advice given could be summed up with: “I don’t feel like doing that.”


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> You haven’t tried hard enough.


Of course he hasn't, I don't believe he wants to.



ET1SSJonota said:


> In case you were wondering, I was being 100% honest and not snarky before with my chemical castration – and this is the equivalent for your current troubles.


That would require action, do you really think CopperTop is capable?



ET1SSJonota said:


> You know, quite honestly Copper, I wish you WOULD be combative. I’m worried you simply don’t have it in you.


:iagree: I guess not!



ET1SSJonota said:


> You’ve ingrained being the victim and then turned it somehow into this great relationship.


It's very sad really.

That said, on some level I would not be surprised to find out he enjoys being the victim.



ET1SSJonota said:


> I see it’s futile


Yes it is futile!



ET1SSJonota said:


> If you really wanted to, there's 82 pages of suggestions, most of which would do you a lot of good just disrupting the terrible dynamic you have with your wife.


Yet 82 pages looks like he doesn't really want to.



ET1SSJonota said:


> AND you get to be slave boy in addition to the normal subservience you provide.


I guess some people find sympathy particularly rewarding. That said, I wonder if sympathy is warranted when one's misery is wilfully embraced.



ET1SSJonota said:


> And yet you continue, and continue, and continue. You reject pretty much every piece of advice because it doesn’t easily fit into some defensible category. You are unwilling/unable to stand up for yourself without seeing yourself as the bad guy. You’ve made that abundantly clear. So do yourself a favor, and limit the pain through the only available means (and by available, I mean acceptable to you): chemicals.


At one point I suggested CopperTop should try being relentless and unyielding. Yet it is now abundantly clear that CopperTop has probably always been that.

I believe he is relentlessly unyielding when it comes to refusing to do anything that will significantly change or end his toxic marital relationship.



ET1SSJonota said:


> Besides the riveting story you’ve provided (much like a train wreck), most of your responses/rejections of all the advice given could be summed up with: “I don’t feel like doing that.”


Exactly!

Edited to add:

I actually think it's a terrible shame, that CopperTop and his wife find themselves in the situation they're in. Unfortunately though, CopperTop like his wife seems determined to maintain the status quo. Lest they both have to take their medicine and undertake the emotional heavy lifting required to change their relationship.

As I understand it CopperTop is only willing to undertake that which he has repeatedly tried without success. Until he is willing to abandon that which does not work nothing will change. Although such an approach is tragic, some find comfort in melancholy.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Maybe I will ask her this question and see what she says. I will probably reword the zinger a little bit though.


I didn't mean it as a zinger, just as a reality check.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't reword, but to clarify that this isn't about a "gotcha", or a game. It is a sincere question that wants a sincere answer, not evasions or justifications.

You've been asking about how to enforce boundaries without threats? 

This is one way: Refuse to let her rewrite reality to suit her whim of the moment. Truth is a consequence.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Personal and Jonota,

I realize you see me as weak and unwilling to make the hard choices. But I will not treat my spouse worse than I would treat a complete stranger. I just won't. 

You both seem to advocate a forward leaning, aggressive stance, to make changes at all costs. If that means belittling her, so be it. If that means engaging in the same behaviors that you find appalling, then that's just fighting fire with fire. If the only way to force her to change to threaten her emotional security, that's the price I should be willing to pay.

I would not treat you like that, and I don't even know you. 

I simply can't understand how doing these things helps. When she says hurtful things to me, it doesn't encourage me to change. It makes me want to retreat from her. Why would I work to change myself, to modify my behavior to please her, if she clearly doesn't care about how I feel? 

What I would feel is resentment. Resentment that I was being treated in an unjust way. Resentment that she was using extortion or petty behavior to get what she wants. And if I resented how I was being treated, then why would I care what she believed? Why would I even want to change to please her?

Why do you think her reaction would be any different? Would your reaction be any different if your partner were to try to implement change through extortion?

No... if that is the only way to achieve my goal, this marriage is dead already. In that case, the threats and all the rest are not necessary. It is simply time for me to go.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I didn't mean it as a zinger, just as a reality check.
> 
> Which is not to say that you shouldn't reword, but to clarify that this isn't about a "gotcha", or a game. It is a sincere question that wants a sincere answer, not evasions or justifications.
> 
> ...


I understand... and I didn't think you meant it as a game of gotcha. But that response, while truthful, would have definitely stung. I normally question her statements when they don't make sense, but I meet with mixed success.

Two days ago, in the midst of all this uproar, she made a statement about her weight. Her numbers didn't add up and I questioned her about it. Not to "prevent her from rewriting reality" but because I thought I was confused. As I questioned her about it, trying to understand what she was telling me, she got annoyed and told me to just forget it.

Last night, I questioned her it about it again. Not to keep digging at it, but to find out what I said that annoyed her. What annoyed her is that she was speaking in general terms, and I was picking at the details. It's a small thing, not worth mentioning really, but it does demonstrate how defensive she can be about her weight. That's why I feel I have to tread carefully.

Sex and her weight. Two subjects that can destroy all the progress we make in minutes.

There is some positive news though.

Tuesdays and Thursdays are terrible nights for me. It is flat-out the entire evening from the moment I get home until bedtime. I didn't have a lot of time to interact with C2 last night, but what little I did, she seemed to be in a much better mood.

It was her first day off her blood-pressure meds and she said she was feeling better than she had in a very long time. The dizziness & lightheadedness were gone and she was much more positive and upbeat than I can remember her being in a some time. 

Hopefully, this is a sign that things are going to start improving. These last couple of weeks, when I started pushing back a little, have not been fun. I would like to get us back to where we were when I started this odyssey, when my only complaint was our intimacy, then try to implement my plan to start nudging her in the direction I want to go.


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> All I have done is double the amount that I prepare for myself and now she is eating the way I normally eat. I'm not doing anything extraordinary and I'm not asking her to do more than I am willing to do.
> 
> I'm hoping she takes over the cooking again tonight. Otherwise it is going to be late dinners for everyone. If she does, I will continue to encourage her to eat what I'm eating instead of what the kids are eating. In addition to the salad last night, I had an orange and a yogurt for dessert. The orange and yogurt satisfies my sweet tooth without blowing the calories completely away. I will confess to having my single, after dinner, dark chocolate Hershey's Kiss... because dark chocolate is good for you, don'tcha know.
> 
> ...


She might need a different approach. There are many roads to Rome.

While I personally don't use calorie counting as a tool for weight loss, plenty do and have seen success. Not everybody will make the decision to try and forever sit in a restaurant or home eating one way while quietly salivating over everyone else's food. Some elect portion and calorie control so that they can still have many of their favorite foods, just less of them. For some people saying you "can't" ever eat X and Y foods triggers a rebellious response that'll lead them back to their trigger foods in full force binge.

Personally I don't think it does any good to vilify foods, even if you choose to restrict or eliminate certain ones. Because not everybody has trouble with the same foods you do. Also if you have an overall well rounded, nutritious diet that works for you health and fitness needs, you should be able to to have some of those so called "bad" foods, in appropriate moderation to your specific needs. A even how one defines "moderation" can be radically different.

I suggest heading over to myfitnesspal's forums and spending a few hours there when you have time. You and your wife might find an approach to weight loss there among the calorie counters and "everything in moderation" crew that seems more manageable to her.

P.S. Salads are awesome in their own right! I never eat a salad because I can't eat anything else. I elect a salad because, I repeat, salads are awesome!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I agree on the diet drinks. I think they are worse than the real things. She has to know this. Not only have I been harping on her for years about them, *she has a master's degree in chemistry.*





How ironic and fascinating. Wow.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> She might need a different approach. There are many roads to Rome.
> 
> While I personally don't use calorie counting as a tool for weight loss, plenty do and have seen success. Not everybody will make the decision to try and forever sit in a restaurant or home eating one way while quietly salivating over everyone else's food. Some elect portion and calorie control so that they can still have many of their favorite foods, just less of them. For some people saying you "can't" ever eat X and Y foods triggers a rebellious response that'll lead them back to their trigger foods in full force binge.
> 
> ...


I agree. I'm not saying my way is the only way. 

I don't calorie count per se. And no food is "off limits." What works for me is trying to eat healthy most of the time, then when I choose to splurge, I know I'm not hurting myself. 

I eat a lot of salads and vegetables, prepared in different ways. I like them and I know they are good for me. My "sweets" are fruit and/or yogurt. I don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything because what I have in front of me is tasty and filling enough. 

Sure, maybe it's not a burger, but I know if I really WANTED that burger, I could have it. I would just have to skip having something similar somewhere else. The key for me is moderation. If you're going to be bad, only be bad once a week.

Oh, and the other thing I gave up were what I call empty calories. The most common of those being soda. They have no redeeming nutritional value at all. I drink one, sometimes two of those a month... and then only because it is somehow related to the meal. Pizza and Mexican... I still will have a soda with those. But otherwise, I don't touch them.


Copper


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Personal and Jonota,
> 
> I realize you see me as weak and unwilling to make the hard choices. *But I will not treat my spouse worse than I would treat a complete stranger.* I just won't. Strawman….fail.
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Strawman….fail.
> 
> More straw men….more fail.
> 
> ...


Straw men... how? What did I miss? Many have advocated exactly what I stated. "You may have to threaten to leave her to save her," one poster said. "You have to fight fire with fire," another added. 

I agree that something has to change, but I'm not willing to change it in that way. I won't threaten to leave her if she doesn't change. I won't resort to the same tactics that she sometimes pulls on me. I believe those are counter productive and will damage our relationship, not improve it. 

I am under no illusion about leaving. I don't wish to leave. Not yet. Not, until the very least, my son is out of school. I think we are coming out of a rough patch because of this medical scare. If we return to where we were, then my marriage is pleasant enough that I can bear it, even if it isn't all that I want. But I would like to find some middle ground, something we can both agree on. 

In the past, I think my mistake has been trying to convince her to change. I'm not going to do that anymore. I have known for a long time I can't change another person, but I couldn't let it go. Now I've decided that I will. Now I will let her make up her own mind that she wants to change.

If we can return to how we were a couple of months ago, I will no longer try to force the intimacy issue. I tried that with logic and reasoning, and failed. I believe trying to convince her to change using the aggressive, threatening posture that some have advocated is doomed as well, but with the added complication of making any eventual resolution only that much harder to achieve because of resentment. 

I believe the way forward is not through trying to convince or force her to change. I think the path forward is her changing not because I want her to, but because she wants to. 


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Straw men... how? What did I miss? Many have advocated exactly what I stated. "You may have to threaten to leave her to save her," one poster said. "You have to fight fire with fire," another added.
> 
> I agree that something has to change, but I'm not willing to change it in that way. I won't threaten to leave her if she doesn't change. I won't resort to the same tactics that she sometimes pulls on me. I believe those are counter productive and will damage our relationship, not improve it.
> 
> ...


*Translation:* I'm going to keep doing what I was doing before and hope for a different outcome.


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## NeverAgain12 (Jan 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> *Translation:* I'm going to keep doing what I was doing before and hope for a different outcome.


Bingo. That's 83 pages worth of reading of my life that I'll never get back.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> I agree that something has to change, but I'm not willing to change it in that way. I won't threaten to leave her if she doesn't change. I won't resort to the same tactics that she sometimes pulls on me.


With respect, Copper, I think that might be a needless bifurcation. I would submit that there is a middle ground between utterly compliant and full on nasty.

Stop and think about your dealings with other men for example. Most of us know that there is an invisible line beyond which you push another man where he'll take a swing at you. He doesn't have to tell you that this boundary exists. You know it exists because you can see it in subtleties of his speech and body language. Consequently, there tends to be an equilibrium and nobody has to tell you what that is. 

Low level conflict is far, far more subtle than a fist fight, but it is no less real. It exists in every single relationship; even with your children and even for that matter, with your pets. It is not "Mean" to have firm boundaries in place because the alternative is spoiled, badly behaved children who will not be able to function as adults. 

It's been one of life's great disappointments to me that this dynamic exists in marriage too, but what can you do? It is what it is.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> With respect, Copper, I think that might be a needless bifurcation. I would submit that there is a middle ground between utterly compliant and full on nasty.
> 
> Stop and think about your dealings with other men for example. Most of us know that there is an invisible line beyond which you push another man where he'll take a swing at you. He doesn't have to tell you that this boundary exists. You know it exists because you can see it in subtleties of his speech and body language. Consequently, there tends to be an equilibrium and nobody has to tell you what that is.
> 
> ...


I understand. And despite what everyone thinks, I'm not utterly compliant. We have other boundaries that we abide by and everyone is happy.

But as far as the bedroom goes, that's not a low level conflict for us. There is no middle ground. If I set a boundary there, enforcing it is impossible. 

Why? 

Because the ONLY way to get her to budge is to dig in and really push hard. Not nasty, but firm and unyielding. But even when I prevail, and I have in the past, she makes the experience as unsatisfying as possible, and the resentment that results is so great that it takes weeks for her to get past it. 

So did I actually manage to enforce the boundary? In my opinion, I did not. The reason I say that is because while we may have had sex, we weren't intimate. Intimacy is a state of mine, not an action. 

So the next step is to use threats, or to be nasty. I have pushed as hard as I can up to that point, and given up. 

That is why I keep coming back to she has to WANT to change. Me trying to force her to change has an exercise in futility, and I don't want to take the next step because it goes against a great deal of what I believe. 


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> But as far as the bedroom goes, that's not a low level conflict for us. There is no middle ground. If I set a boundary there, enforcing it is impossible.


Does she understand that sexlessness puts a marriage in jeopardy in as real and as morally reprehensible a way as an affair does?

Does she understand that it is the flip side of the same moral coin?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Does she understand that sexlessness puts a marriage in jeopardy in as real and as morally reprehensible a way as an affair does?
> 
> Does she understand that it is the flip side of the same moral coin?


I don't think that even Coppertop gets that. That his wife has been unfaithful. That he's been cheated on.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I would like to take this moment to thank everyone for replying and offering advice. 

I'm sorry some see me as being an obstructionist. That is not my intention. But I would also like to remind everyone that this has been an ongoing problem for 20 years. 

During this time I have pushed and made demands, what people here call boundaries and consequences. I have tried to find out why she is so reluctant to be intimate. I have tried to get us into counseling. I have tried just leaving her alone in the hope that she would eventually come to me. I have tried all these things, and nothing seems to work. The only thing that I haven't tried is threatening her or being nasty, and the plan I intend to try next. 

But in the past, even when I did finally wear down her resistance and she agreed to be physical with me, it served only to remind me of what I don't want. So what exactly had I gained? 

How do you force someone to want to be with you? How do you force someone to care? How do you force someone to be there, not in body, but in spirit? That's where I am. 

I'm fairly certain that now that C2 is feeling better, and it has been long enough (13 months), that I could convince her within a week or two to be physical with me. But if the encounter is like most of ours have been in the past 15 years, it will result in my being frustrated and C2 mildly to moderately resentful that I "forced" her to do something she would rather not do.

This is why I say trying to force her isn't what I want to do. If I can't have her at least want to be with me, I just as soon not bother. Dealing with that is much more difficult than doing without. 

So now I intend to try something I haven't tried before. I'm going to try to do semi-180. I will try to be her friend. A very good friend, but still just a friend. I will be there for her, as I have always been, but without the emotional support. I will no longer be there to hold her and offer her my warmth, comfort, and loving touch. I will take a step back and offer her the same support that I would offer any friend, but no more. 

If she doesn't like our new relationship, I will be willing to take her back, to return to how we were. But there will be a price. I'm not asking her to change. I'm only asking that she attend counseling with me. That's my only condition. I believe that I am asking for very little, and if she can't even give me that much, then I will know that our marriage is truly over and we are nothing but friends. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Does she understand that sexlessness puts a marriage in jeopardy in as real and as morally reprehensible a way as an affair does?
> 
> Does she understand that it is the flip side of the same moral coin?


No, I don't think she does. 

Remember, in her opinion, anyone in their 50's that has sex more often than a few times a year is a pervert. She thinks sex every three or four months is normal for couples our age, and has told me so repeatedly. 


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Remember, in her opinion, anyone in their 50's that has sex more often than a few times a year is a pervert...


I remember. In my parent's generation, this level of naivete about married life was called a, "Maiden aunt's fancy" which is sort of derogatory, but still has a kernel of truth at its core. 

I trust you realize that this sterile, make believe world of hers cannot be allowed to define reality unless you want to live in it too? 

Can you think of constructive ways to erode that belief? Does she like entertainment with a romantic theme for example?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I trust you realize that this sterile, make believe world of hers cannot be allowed to define reality unless you want to live in it too?
> 
> Can you think of constructive ways to erode that belief? Does she like entertainment with a romantic theme for example?


I realize that. I have tried to point out studies, etc, that contradict her belief. I covered it before in this thread, but the gist of her argument for why you couldn't trust the studies is this...

Only weirdos and perverts would even respond to such a study, so of course their results are skewed and show that people are having a lot more sex than normal people actually are.

A far as the romantic entertainment question, she does like romantic comedies... You've Got Mail... When Harry Met Sally, etc. But most of the movies she likes touch on the chase, romance, and fun part. They don't actually mention the sex part. They don't cover what happens after the guy gets the girl.

I remember watching 9½ Weeks a long time ago on either VHS or DVD. She was appalled and I believe that I watched most of the movie alone. I know any move that has a racy scene in it, she normally gripes about it being in there or leaves the room. To be fair, she has the same complaints about raw language. I would guess she hasn't seen an R rated movie in 20 years. Maybe more. I have only seen them when I rent one for me to watch. 

When we are getting along, she likes the hugs, snuggles and smooches. But if it starts to become more serious, that's when she starts putting the brakes on. She is content to let me hold her, and even caress her... so long as I don't touch anywhere most would define as intimate areas. I have to keep my touches to her arms, thighs, back or face. If she is feeling daring, her stomach. If she is feeling really daring, her bottom.

She will let me pat her bottom, in private, so long as we are in no position to do anything else. Like in the kitchen, if I walk by I can pat her bottom, but once we are in bed? Off limits.

In the last year, when I had thrown up my hands in frustration and defeat, when I was doing everything a husband should do, except making love to his wife, she told me she had been the happiest she has been in years. 

She had gotten over her resentment and was feeling close to me again. So overall, my marriage was actually pretty good. I just (selfishly in her mind) wanted a little bit more. I wanted to make that last step. But that is a step to far for her.

That's what got this mess I'm in at the moment started again. I pushed her a little, and so I "ruined" our relationship again. 

But for the last several weeks I have been the loyal and supportive husband again, and things are improving. Rapidly. She is feeling better after getting off her blood-pressure meds and she is quickly (very quickly for her) moving back to where we were a couple of month ago, when she was so happy.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Semi-180? Didn't learn that one in geometry - what is a semi-180?

And her problem with you acting like a very good friend will be what? That is what she has been telling you she wants for most of your marriage. Still a bit confused on this plan of yours and why you think it is different than what you have already been doing?

What's happened with the phone counseling?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Straw men... how? What did I miss? Many have advocated exactly what I stated. "You may have to threaten to leave her to save her," one poster said. "You have to fight fire with fire," another added.
> 
> I agree that something has to change, but I'm not willing to change it in that way. I won't threaten to leave her if she doesn't change. I won't resort to the same tactics that she sometimes pulls on me. I believe those are counter productive and will damage our relationship, not improve it.
> 
> ...


Hi CopperTop,

I appreciate your response to my post, but am also disappointed. You only addressed the Strawman Argument (which Ocotillo addressed better than I in his post #1241). 

If you don't want to acknowledge the rest, that's fine, perhaps I missed the mark by a long shot. 

I'd like to offer you one last thing to ponder before I bow out of this thread (I'll still read and keep you in my thoughts and prayers, though).

An analogy, or two (I know they are not always 100% accurate, but play along). 

1) Your wife is on the second floor of a house, a fire breaks out on the first floor, you are a distance away and are blocked by a gate to physically rescue her. You have a couple of options, you could use your Mr. Nice Guy voice, barely above audible level, and say, ''Sweetie, if you could just take a second and peak out the window and see the smoke, you might want to head to the back stairwell to safety'' Or, you could yell at the top of the lungs and risk hurting her sensitive feelings and say, "C2…FIRE...GET OUT OF THE F***ING HOUSE!!! 

2) You're walking several steps behind your wife as you cross railroad tracks. You spot a bullet train approaching, and time is limited, do you, quicken your pace and take you wife's arm and gently guide her off the tracks as you would an old lady at a street corner, thus likely getting both of you smashed to bits, or do you run up and push her forward to safety, and jump back out of the way to safety?

I realize they aren't perfect, but I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to say, ja? 

I asked my wife, who had no knowledge of this thread beforehand, which option she preferred. She said she'd rather be yelled at and have a broken wrist or ankle from being pushed to the option of dying in a fire or being T-boned by a train. 

Anyway, that's all I've got, best of luck, 

OnTheFly


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Just give it up, Copper! Honestly - I don't think your friendship plan has a chance in hell to get her to want to have sex with you. So just go back to your near perfect - mostly happy marriage - and live with C2 happily sexless ever after. 

Maybe you can start a thread on learning to enjoy masturbation more. C2 is perfectly happy where she is - she knows you aren't going anywhere and she has figured out how to keep you where she wants you. So you just need to figure out how to be happy with the reality of your marriage - instead of fantasizing that no hugging and no holding hands is going to get her to want to have sex with you. It's actually kind of a silly plan if you really think about it... at least it is to me. 

I would wager that if you presented your plan to her - That you intend to leave her alone and not ask for sex ever again - but you are also not going to give her any physical contact at all until she agrees to go to counseling with you. She would then reply - fine with me, so be it - no touching then. 

She knows as well as everyone who has read your thread that the next physical emergency - and there will be many of them given her health issues - everything you said you wouldn't do - you will do - because that's just you and you wouldn't do less for a stranger. So I am sure she will just call your bluff! If you don't believe me - present it to her - straight forward and see what her reply is. 

Quite frankly - I think your only viable choice given all your mental and emotional constraints on what you will do and not do - is to just accept your reality of occasional low quality sex from your wife - and learn to be satisfied with your hand instead!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Semi-180? Didn't learn that one in geometry - what is a semi-180?
> 
> And her problem with you acting like a very good friend will be what? That is what she has been telling you she wants for most of your marriage. Still a bit confused on this plan of yours and why you think it is different than what you have already been doing?
> 
> What's happened with the phone counseling?


Semi-180... pulling back, but not so far as to completely distance myself from her. I don't want out, I just want to get her attention. 

My idea may not work. It could be just another in the long line of failures. But if I push her completely away, then she has no incentive to change. Right now I'm walking a line between husband and friend. That's where she wants me. But I don't want to walk here any more. 

I have tried to pull her with me to be husband and wife, but I've failed at that every time. So, I'm going to let her pull me into being her friend. 

But you're quite right. I am rolling the dice that she won't like that. But honestly, I don't know that it could be a any worse spot than I'm in now, so I will take that chance. 

The phone counseling was a complete waste of time I think. I am supposed to get a call-back in four weeks to see how I'm doing.

What I'm supposed to do is get at the root cause of her resentment for me. If you recall, that is what the counselor said was the reason she didn't want to be intimate with me.

So what he told me to do, to discover what the resentment is, is to answer every statement or question with a question. "Why are you asking me this?" or "Why do you say that?" or "Why do you believe that?"

Personally, I think doing that is just going to tick her off, but hey, I'm willing to give it a try.


Copper


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mary, he's not allowed to masturbate. Or finish when she allows sex. No orgasms for him. That would be selfish and perverted.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Hi CopperTop,
> 
> I appreciate your response to my post, but am also disappointed. You only addressed the Strawman Argument (which Ocotillo addressed better than I in his post #1241).
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying. But a concrete example would be better. I don't know how to do what you, and others, have said to do. 

I have tried to find out why she doesn't want me. She either can't, or won't, tell me. 

I have tried to set a boundary and enforce it. I don't have a problem with that except in the marriage bed. 

In the marriage bed, I can set a boundary, and I can even enforce it to some degree. That does work, but only so far. After a while she would cave and we would have sex, but the backlash was so bad, and the sex so miserably horrible, that it was a lose/lose. 

So I ask. Help me. Tell me what I should do. 

I set the boundary. Sex once a week. 

She says no.

Now what do I do? 

In the past, after relentless pressure from me for weeks or months, she would finally give in to the "boundary" and she would be there physically, but not there emotionally. She wouldn't allow me to kiss her. She won't open her eyes to look at me. She wouldn't touch me at all. She won't move or make a sound until she peaks. She wanted it over as soon as possible and actual intercourse might last 3 minutes if I'm lucky. Often times I don't have enough time to... get there. And afterwards, she would be resentful and cold for a few days to a week before she would begin to thaw because I "forced" her to have sex. After a few weeks, she will have thawed enough that I would begin to try again... and the cycle starts all over again. 

How do I break that cycle? 

I don't know what to do that I haven't already tried... except get nasty or pull father back than I ever have before. And I don't want to get nasty.


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I believe that I am asking for very little, and if she can't even give me that much, then I will know that our marriage is truly over and we are nothing but friends.
> 
> 
> Copper


While I commend you for trying, you've apparently been asking for "very little" for a very, very long time and she still hasn't given you jack.

You keep asking questions that she's already answered. Believe people when they tell you the truth. She's made her priorities VERY known, and they don't include your needs, not the ones that drove you here. Your issues are much bigger than a sucky sex life, as is usually the case. The icing on this sad cake is that you've been miserable over much of the previous year yet she thought it was one of the best years of your marriage. Her definition of a good marriage is now basically "do whatever I want, enable me, smile and take it in silence". She shows very little sign of being interested in providing you little more than an ailing roommate who might soon become a beached invalid.

I think it's taking you a long time to realize the truth about your wife. Even your tone surrounding how you refer to her in the latter part of this thread is changing. I hope the full realization of what an awful wife she is to you finally settles in, and you act accordingly.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Mary, he's not allowed to masturbate. Or finish when she allows sex. No orgasms for him. That would be selfish and perverted.


Please, don't make things worse by making up things that were never said. 

In no way has she ever said my desire to reach orgasm was selfish or perverse. The only thing that prevents it is her lack of interest.


Copper


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Please, don't make things worse by making up things that were never said.
> 
> In no way has she ever said my desire to reach orgasm was selfish or perverse. The only thing that prevents it is her lack of interest.
> 
> ...


So she's ok with you masturbating? She lets you finish your orgasm after she's had hers?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> I would wager that if you presented your plan to her - That you intend to leave her alone and not ask for sex ever again - but you are also not going to give her any physical contact at all until she agrees to go to counseling with you. She would then reply - fine with me, so be it - no touching then.


I would wager you are right. If I were to simply lay the plans out in words, she would shrug and say, "Okay. Sounds good to me."

But in reality, I'm hoping for something different. It's easy to say I don't care if I am "no longer there for you" until you want me to be, and I'm not. It's like saying you don't want any ice cream, until it is there in front of you. 

But in reality, you may be right. I may just be howling at the moon. But is seems to me to be the only option left other than leaving or becoming someone I won't like very much.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So she's ok with you masturbating? She lets you finish your orgasm after she's had hers?


I think she would allow me to finish if she could. But unless a woman can will herself into drying out, she can't help it, and she never said my reaching orgasm was selfish or perverse. 


Copper


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

The "treat her as a friend" strategy seems to be only a slight variation of what you did in the past year when she was happy and you were miserable. 

It may make your life slightly better. Instead of trying to loving things for her with no hope of getting your needs met, you'll at least have you looking out for your needs now. That's better than nothing. But it's a prescription for a lonely, unfulfilling existence. 

You will get frustrated with this over time. A year from now, you could be back here, frustrated again. Another year wasted.

Sooner or later, you need to give her the option. Counseling, open marriage or divorce. My resentment levels would be off the charts if her happiness was inversely proportional to my own. At some point, the pain of initiating a true change will be less than the pain of living in a hopeless relationship.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Now what do I do?
> 
> How do I break that cycle?
> 
> I don't know what to do that I haven't already tried... except get nasty or pull father back than I ever have before. And I don't want to get nasty.


Howdy CopperTop,

I can't give concrete examples because all I have to go on is the info you have provided about your wife and situation. I believe in your heart you are being as honest and unbiased as possible relating your issues here, but I think you are handcuffed by some faulty assumptions. One being, the idea that if you push too hard, she'll snap and leave you. Imagine a pressure gauge dialled 0-10Psi. You start applying pressure and at 2Psi your wife starts resisting with her usual antics…..your assumption is that her breaking point is 2Psi, but you'll never know because you back off and let is settle back to 0. What if you maintained and then applied more pressure and got to 3Psi…..more bluster, but no breaking point. Up it to 4Psi, even more bluster and fireworks, but no break yet! What gives? You don't know her breaking point since you've never been close to it. I'm not fooled by your descriptions of her reactions…..to me, it seems her talk of divorce or leaving is hot air. 

Have you ever watched Intervention on A&E? I used to watch it a lot. The concept that you have to be willing to loose your marriage in order to save it had application to that show also. To me, you would be the one advocating not to do an intervention on a loved one because the emotional upheaval caused by the trauma would be too great, despite the fact that doing nothing is worse. That show had a few spectacular successes and failures and everything in between. Despite of the fear of the unknown, the 'loving' families went ahead and tried. They and the intervention facilitators pushed to the breaking point and beyond, but at least tried.

It's getting late and it's time to sack out…..I won't bother saying it's my last time posting, cuz it probably ain't!


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> But unless a woman can will herself into drying out, she can't help it


High quality coconut oil will solve that.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I think she would allow me to finish if she could. But unless a woman can will herself into drying out, she can't help it, and she never said my reaching orgasm was selfish or perverse.
> 
> 
> Copper


Do you understand that the reaction of a caring spouse who was interested in your needs would be to switch to a moist mouth, a lubricated anus, a well lotioned hand job, or possibly even a nice, well oiled wrack for a titty-screw? Just because she dries up after she apparently gets hers does not mean her responsibility for helping you reach orgasm ends.

The fact that you keep letting her off the hook because her vagina dries up speaks volumes. You don't seem to realize that it's this woman's responsibility to help you to completion.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> While I commend you for trying, you've apparently been asking for "very little" for a very, very long time and she still hasn't given you jack.


I guess it depends on how you define "very little." In her mind, I have been asking for a lot. Far more than is reasonable. We have to different perceptions of reality. 





jaquen said:


> You keep asking questions that she's already answered. Believe people when they tell you the truth. She's made her priorities VERY known, and they don't include your needs, not the ones that drove you here. Your issues are much bigger than a sucky sex life, as is usually the case. The icing on this sad cake is that you've been miserable over much of the previous year yet she thought it was one of the best years of your marriage. Her definition of a good marriage is now basically "do whatever I want, enable me, smile and take it in silence". She shows very little sign of being interested in providing you little more than an ailing roommate who might soon become a beached invalid.


Not entirely true. For much of last year, I was reasonably happy. I had gotten tired of the battle and just given up. And that worked for a while. 

If I could just get right with the notion of no sex, I actually could be happy where I am. That has just proven to be harder than I realized. I wish I could. It would make my life a lot easier.





jaquen said:


> I think it's taking you a long time to realize the truth about your wife. Even your tone surrounding how you refer to her in the latter part of this thread is changing. I hope the full realization of what an awful wife she is to you finally settles in, and you act accordingly.


I suspect that its true my tone changed. That's my fault. I got annoyed with her during this latest health scare and she was testing my patience. But she is better now and she isn't trying to manipulate me with her illness anymore. 


Copper


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Personal and Jonota,
> 
> I realize you see me as weak and unwilling to make the hard choices. But I will not treat my spouse worse than I would treat a complete stranger. I just won't.


However, she does not have that same issue.



CopperTop said:


> You both seem to advocate a forward leaning, aggressive stance, to make changes at all costs. If that means belittling her, so be it. If that means engaging in the same behaviors that you find appalling, then that's just fighting fire with fire. If the only way to force her to change to threaten her emotional security, that's the price I should be willing to pay.
> 
> I would not treat you like that, and I don't even know you.


But she treats you like that, and she supposedly loves you. Catching on to that yet?



CopperTop said:


> I simply can't understand how doing these things helps. When she says hurtful things to me, it doesn't encourage me to change. It makes me want to retreat from her. Why would I work to change myself, to modify my behavior to please her, if she clearly doesn't care about how I feel?


I can’t believe no one else has called you out on this part right here. Once again Copper, I’m going to have to throw a Texas sized Bullsh1t flag high into the air.

She DOES say hurtful things to you. And it DOES cause you to change your behavior to avoid having her say those things again. And you DO work to change yourself, modify your behavior to please her, when everyone BUT you can tell she clearly doesn’t care about how you feel. At all. Not even a little. Why? Because you can’t even see reality for what it is.

I’m seriously pulling my hair out here that you could even PRESENT such a statement without a huge /sarcasm at the end. WTF man???



CopperTop said:


> What I would feel is resentment. Resentment that I was being treated in an unjust way. Resentment that she was using extortion or petty behavior to get what she wants. And if I resented how I was being treated, then why would I care what she believed? Why would I even want to change to please her?


“would”? You DO feel resentment. But keep digging in for more. And more. And yet more. So tell us Copper, WHY do you even want to change to please her? You ARE denying who you are and what you want, frequently, for her. Enlighten us. 



CopperTop said:


> Why do you think her reaction would be any different? Would your reaction be any different if your partner were to try to implement change through extortion?


You can see it as extortion sure. Now Mr. Labels – identify where you wife has used this exact tactic on you. And again, please answer your own question for us.


CopperTop said:


> No... if that is the only way to achieve my goal, this marriage is dead already. In that case, the threats and all the rest are not necessary. It is simply time for me to go.


You marriage IS dead already. It HAS been dead for some time. You’re ½ of the zombie that keeps it going. Are you going to have a “Warm Bodies” moment and wake up and try to actually save it, or just keep stumbling around looking for brains to make you feel a tiny bit human?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Do you understand that the reaction of a caring spouse who was interested in your needs would be to switch to a moist mouth, a lubricated anus, a well lotioned hand job, or possibly even a nice, well oiled wrack for a titty-screw? Just because she dries up after she apparently gets hers does not mean her responsibility for helping you reach orgasm ends.
> 
> The fact that you keep letting her off the hook because her vagina dries up speaks volumes. You don't seem to realize that it's this woman's responsibility to help you to completion.


I understand, and any or all of that would be wonderful. But ALL of those things are taboo as far as she is concerned. I don't understand it, but it's true. 

I have in the past tried to introduce some of those things into our marriage, just for some variety. Absolute and total, out of hand, forget about it, rejection. 


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I understand, and any or all of that would be wonderful. But ALL of those things are taboo as far as she is concerned. I don't understand it, but it's true.
> 
> I have in the past tried to introduce some of those things into our marriage, just for some variety. Absolute and total, out of hand, forget about it, rejection.
> 
> ...



So, again, why didn't you and your wife just divorce years ago and continue to cohabitate with each other as good friends, for the sake of monetary purposes and the kids?

Do you get that your wife isn't even a wife to you? Like at all?

You could be getting everything your "wife" gets you now from her, while still free to find romantic and sexual fulfillment, connection and understanding with a woman who actually needs a man, not a bestie and caretaker.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Semi-180... pulling back, but not so far as to completely distance myself from her. I don't want out, I just want to get her attention. 180 is a 180 - there is no semi 180. 180 is doing the opposite of what you were doing. The opposite - not more of the same. To get her attention - to the point of where she is paying attention - you have to behave in a way that she has never seen before - in a way that throws her off kilter because she hasn't seen you act that way before. You already know that she is fine with you pulling back. You said you did that for a whole year - and she was very happy that way. So - I don't understand what is different with this new plan of yours - then what you did that whole year. Maybe I am missing something here.
> 
> My idea may not work. It could be just another in the long line of failures. But if I push her completely away, then she has no incentive to change. Right now I'm walking a line between husband and friend. That's where she wants me. But I don't want to walk here any more. She has no incentive to ever change - given your constraints that you have imposed on yourself. She likes how she is. She is happy with how she is. She likes her life with no sex. And she isn't giving you any sex - so what is the problem for her???
> 
> ...


I have to be honest here. I am totally frustrated by your thread because you say you can't cope, can't live this way - yet you cut yourself off from all options that have a chance of changing things. ALL you are asking for is for her to go to counseling. To get that one concession from her should not be that difficult - IF she had any love and respect for you at all. Yet - you can't seem to find anyway to get her to go... Kind of says a lot - at least from where I am standing. 

Congratulations - you can't convince C2 - but you have convinced me. I have now reached the same conclusion that you have - your case is hopeless. You are stuck -so you need to just figure out how to make the best of it. YOU are not going to change C2. She will only change when she wants to change or feels it is necessary to change - and she has no motive to want to or no reason to feel it necessary to change. You have made it clear you are not leaving no matter what - at least while the kids are around. All of your constraints leave you with ONLY two options - don't do anything more and just remain unhappy - or turn all your energies to working on yourself in finding a way to be happy and content with your life as it is. I think you should give up on trying things to motivate her to change. you are wasting your time anyways. You have tried everything you are willing to try - and it has not worked. Trying slightly different versions of the same isn't going to do the trick either. 

Her issues about sex runs deep and probably has little to do with you at all. Since she wont go to counseling, nothing you are willing to do is going to help her get to the root of her problems. So - I am 100% serious here - just work on you - and find a way to be happy with the reality. It sucks - but it is your reality and what you are stuck with - by choice - but stuck none the less. Throw yourself into parenting and other things that make you happy - and since its only bad at night - maybe invest in some good sleeping pills. In a few more years, as you age - the desire will lesson and perhaps you won't even miss the sex anymore.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Not entirely true. For much of last year, I was reasonably happy. I had gotten tired of the battle and just given up. And that worked for a while.


That's not reasonably happy, that's reasonably numb. 







CopperTop said:


> I suspect that its true my tone changed. That's my fault. I got annoyed with her during this latest health scare and she was testing my patience. But she is better now and she isn't trying to manipulate me with her illness anymore.
> 
> 
> Copper


So basically you're reupping on the anaesthesia. 

Rinse and repeat.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Rinse and repeat





Personal said:


> rinse and repeat


*Snap!*


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I realize you see me as weak and unwilling to make the hard choices. But I will not treat my spouse worse than I would treat a complete stranger. I just won't.
> 
> *However, she does not have that same issue.*


Actually, if I remove the lack of sex, I think she treats me pretty well. If we could fix that one issue, I would be perfectly content with my life.





ET1SSJonota said:


> You both seem to advocate a forward leaning, aggressive stance, to make changes at all costs. If that means belittling her, so be it. If that means engaging in the same behaviors that you find appalling, then that's just fighting fire with fire. If the only way to force her to change to threaten her emotional security, that's the price I should be willing to pay.
> 
> I would not treat you like that, and I don't even know you.
> 
> *But she treats you like that, and she supposedly loves you. Catching on to that yet?*


Not often. 5-6 times over 26 years of marriage doesn't see so bad to me. Way, way, back near the front of this thread, people said part of my problem is I don't have any passion. 

Maybe so. But I have never said anything (that I recall) that I later regretted either. Yes, sometimes she acts out. I wish she didn't. But sometimes people lash out in fear or pain and someone gets hurt.





ET1SSJonota said:


> I simply can't understand how doing these things helps. When she says hurtful things to me, it doesn't encourage me to change. It makes me want to retreat from her. Why would I work to change myself, to modify my behavior to please her, if she clearly doesn't care about how I feel?
> 
> *I can’t believe no one else has called you out on this part right here. Once again Copper, I’m going to have to throw a Texas sized Bullsh1t flag high into the air.
> 
> ...


Yes, sometimes she does. And yes, when she does, it sometimes modifies my behavior. But it doesn't draw us closer. It pushes us farther apart. The last time she lashed out at me, a year ago, we went a year with me having no interest in having sex with her at all. So yes, I will agree, doing these things CAN lead to a modification in behavior. Just not the one I want.

Maybe that is the secret. I make her mad enough that she says something that hurts me enough that I no longer desire her. End of problem. 





ET1SSJonota said:


> What I would feel is resentment. Resentment that I was being treated in an unjust way. Resentment that she was using extortion or petty behavior to get what she wants. And if I resented how I was being treated, then why would I care what she believed? Why would I even want to change to please her?
> 
> *“would”? You DO feel resentment. But keep digging in for more. And more. And yet more. So tell us Copper, WHY do you even want to change to please her? You ARE denying who you are and what you want, frequently, for her. Enlighten us. *


I do feel some resentment. But it's not because of an ultimatum. I don't think she is being fair with me. I am willing to change to meet her somewhere in the middle. But I am only willing to change so much. I won't change to the point that I am no longer true to myself. 

If she could be happy and engaged with sex once a month, I would accept that and I don't think I would resent it. I would still want more, but I would change that much. If I did continue to resent her after that, then that's my failing and I would have to learn to deal with it.





ET1SSJonota said:


> Why do you think her reaction would be any different? Would your reaction be any different if your partner were to try to implement change through extortion?
> 
> *You can see it as extortion sure. Now Mr. Labels – identify where you wife has used this exact tactic on you. And again, please answer your own question for us.*


I honestly do not recall a single time that she has ever said, if you do (or don't do) this, I'm leaving you. The nearest thing was when she said she wasn't coming home, but then later did. But even that wasn't delivered as a threat... just as a statement. 

<EDIT>
I do recall one time after I thought about it. Just a few days ago she laid an ultimatum down that if I didn't put gas in her car, she couldn't go to work. And it worked. I put gas in her car. But I will tell, I resent her doing that. A LOT. If she hadn't been in the middle of this health thing when she did it, I would resent it even more. This is not a positive and it has certainly pushed me farther away. This is part of the reason why, as someone else noticed, my tone had changed toward her. I didn't like her much right then, and I'm still annoyed about it now.
</EDIT> 





ET1SSJonota said:


> No... if that is the only way to achieve my goal, this marriage is dead already. In that case, the threats and all the rest are not necessary. It is simply time for me to go.
> 
> *You marriage IS dead already. It HAS been dead for some time. You’re ½ of the zombie that keeps it going. Are you going to have a “Warm Bodies” moment and wake up and try to actually save it, or just keep stumbling around looking for brains to make you feel a tiny bit human?*


Maybe you're right. Maybe my marriage is past saving. I don't want to think so, but perhaps you are right. But I'm not ready to give it up just yet. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> So, again, why didn't you and your wife just divorce years ago and continue to cohabitate with each other as good friends, for the sake of monetary purposes and the kids?
> 
> Do you get that your wife isn't even a wife to you? Like at all?
> 
> You could be getting everything your "wife" gets you now from her, while still free to find romantic and sexual fulfillment, connection and understanding with a woman who actually needs a man, not a bestie and caretaker.


Easy answer. There is no way she would go for this. Ever. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

The difference is slight, but hopefully significant enough to matter. What I have done this last year is simply stop asking her for intimacy. Nothing else changed. And she likes this. A lot.

I want to take another step back from this. And not even give her the "Hey babe, glad you're home." hug and smooch that she has always been getting. 

Is that enough of a change to make a difference? I don't know.





mary35 said:


> I have to be honest here. I am totally frustrated by your thread because you say you can't cope, can't live this way - yet you cut yourself off from all options that have a chance of changing things. ALL you are asking for is for her to go to counseling. To get that one concession from her should not be that difficult - IF she had any love and respect for you at all. Yet - you can't seem to find anyway to get her to go... Kind of says a lot - at least from where I am standing.


I don't understand it either. It doesn't seem like a lot to me either. The reason stated? There is nothing wrong with her, I'm the problem. So she doesn't need counseling.





mary35 said:


> Congratulations - you can't convince C2 - but you have convinced me. I have now reached the same conclusion that you have - your case is hopeless. You are stuck -so you need to just figure out how to make the best of it. YOU are not going to change C2. She will only change when she wants to change or feels it is necessary to change - and she has no motive to want to or no reason to feel it necessary to change. You have made it clear you are not leaving no matter what - at least while the kids are around. All of your constraints leave you with ONLY two options - don't do anything more and just remain unhappy - or turn all your energies to working on yourself in finding a way to be happy and content with your life as it is. I think you should give up on trying things to motivate her to change. you are wasting your time anyways. You have tried everything you are willing to try - and it has not worked. Trying slightly different versions of the same isn't going to do the trick either.
> 
> Her issues about sex runs deep and probably has little to do with you at all. Since she wont go to counseling, nothing you are willing to do is going to help her get to the root of her problems. So - I am 100% serious here - just work on you - and find a way to be happy with the reality. It sucks - but it is your reality and what you are stuck with - by choice - but stuck none the less. Throw yourself into parenting and other things that make you happy - and since its only bad at night - maybe invest in some good sleeping pills. In a few more years, as you age - the desire will lesson and perhaps you won't even miss the sex anymore.


That's what I did for a year... and it worked pretty well. Then I guess I got greedy. But for now, I'm somewhat at peace with the lack of sex. If I could stay like this I would be good. 

It's just difficult sometimes. 


Copper


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Actually, if I remove the lack of sex, I think she treats me pretty well. If we could fix that one issue, I would be perfectly content with my life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The saddest part of all this? Is that you can't feel very good about yourself as a man, or human being, to say the things you keep saying, to do the things you keep doing, and to take the crap you keep taking, all the while continuing to kowtow to this woman masquerading very poorly as a "wife".


Your wife's actions no longer frustrate me. At least she's standing up for what she wants and controlling the situation to her advantage. It's selfish and narcissistic, yes, but she's taking a bold move to create her own world.

You are just beaten down so badly that you don't even see how far gone you are. You don't understand that a man with any self respect at all wouldn't hold the beliefs you do or take half the sh*t you endure. And obviously this has to be an issue that likely predates your marriage. 

It's gotten to the point where reading your posts is like watching a physically abused woman justify why she can't, and won't, leave the man who routinely beats the living stuffing out of her. It's equal parts sad and sickening.

I think I need to take a break from all this. If you're not an epic troll, which I almost wish you were at this point, this has got to be one of the most maddening, upsetting threads I've ever read on TAM.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

jaquen said:


> The saddest part of all this? Is that you can't feel very good about yourself as a man, or human being, to say the things you keep saying, to do the things you keep doing, and to take the crap you keep taking, all the while continuing to kowtow to this woman masquerading very poorly as a "wife".
> 
> 
> Your wife's actions no longer frustrate me. At least she's standing up for what she wants and controlling the situation to her advantage. It's selfish and narcissistic, yes, but she's taking a bold move to create her own world.
> ...


:iagree:

I thought we were making so e headway with Copper, but I guess not. She really has him by the balls. (Without touching them of course)

Something seems a bit off with this family dynamic. College age daughter who still lives at home instead of away at school, family dinner every night. Who has a 19 & 15 year old who still can eat a family dinner every night? Usually activities and friends would be a important part of life at this age.

Married 26 years and she has never touched his penis. What man would put up with the for this long. Is they've been married 26 years, that means they didn't have children for the first 7. 

For any men reading, would you stay with a woman who wouldn't touch your pen*s if you didn't have children with them?

Things also seem to change very quickly. It's Thursday, and now all is just peachy with C2's health. That's changed pretty quickly.

Now his modified 180 plays exactly into C2's hand. You are going to make her incredibly happy. If you really want to make her happy, suggest she move into the guest room. Then she knows you don't even bother her with the caressing.

One last thing, please make sure your children know how dysfunctional your marriage is or else they will each inflict upon so another the life you are now leading. They know a lot more than you think they do! If this alone isn't reason to change, u don't know what is.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Best of luck Copper. I'm checking out of this thread for awhile. If she will not go to counseling with you, at least go for yourself.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I thought we were making so e headway with Copper, but I guess not. She really has him by the balls. (Without touching them of course)
> 
> Something seems a bit off with this family dynamic. College age daughter who still lives at home instead of away at school, family dinner every night. Who has a 19 & 15 year old who still can eat a family dinner every night? Usually activities and friends would be a important part of life at this age.


What can I say? We're a close family. The 19 year old is a bit odd, I will grant you that. She is diagnosed with borderline Asperger's, so she doesn't get out much. 

Our son is normal (if scary smart) but he's only 15 and very heavily involved in school. He doesn't have a lot of friends since most of the people he goes to school with may be as much as 30 years older than him. Where we live, there are almost no kids near his age. Most are quite a lot younger, or enough older they don't want a 15 year old hanging about. 

He does go out and do things. He enjoys karting and shooting and he is very good at both. But since he can't yet drive, that requires someone to go with him. That's usually me, and we schedule it so we are normally home for dinner. 





Workathome said:


> Married 26 years and she has never touched his penis. What man would put up with the for this long. Is they've been married 26 years, that means they didn't have children for the first 7.
> 
> For any men reading, would you stay with a woman who wouldn't touch your pen*s if you didn't have children with them?


Correct. She was thought to be steril. So the first one was a real surprise because for 7 years we had used no protection.

And I put up with it because in the beginning it was no big deal. Yes, she had some strange hangups, but we were still intimate. I lived with it, thinking as we became more comfortable with each other she would learn to trust me. Also, I was gone 200 plus days a year on business in the beginning. I would be gone for weeks at a time, return home for 3 or 4 days, then leave again. So I really didn't know and realize what was really going on. It wasn't long after I quit traveling and was home every night that I took a new job, relocated to NC, and she became pregnant. After that triple whammy, things started going downhill. 





Workathome said:


> Things also seem to change very quickly. It's Thursday, and now all is just peachy with C2's health. That's changed pretty quickly.


That is a combination of things. She wasn't nearly as near death's door as I thought. But when your partner wakes you up, complaining of chest pains, and she already had a couple of heart episodes in the past, you don't mess around. She also tends to, in my opinion, over react to being sick. No matter what she has, I can't possibly understand how sick she is because I never get sick. She's ALWAYS been this way. Her mother tells stories of her acting like that as a child. I tend to mostly ignore it.

All her other health issues remain. All I said was that she is feeling better since they took her off her blood-pressure meds. That's what she tells me, and she acts like it. They have her monitoring her blood-pressure several times a day to make sure it doesn't spike up too high again, but it is running high... in the 150 over 90 range. But the doc is thinking her blood pressure meds were causing a lot of her problems. She is going to stay off of them another week then they will re-evaluate. 

She does have some heart damage, but not enough to prevent her from doing the things that need to be done. The doctor said to start exercising again, but only twice a week, no more than 30 minutes at a time, and stop if she gets light headed or out of breath. 

He again hammered on her about her weight. I don't know that she will do anything about it. Probably not. All I can do is try to help as best I can.





Workathome said:


> Now his modified 180 plays exactly into C2's hand. You are going to make her incredibly happy. If you really want to make her happy, suggest she move into the guest room. Then she knows you don't even bother her with the caressing.
> 
> One last thing, please make sure your children know how dysfunctional your marriage is or else they will each inflict upon so another the life you are now leading. They know a lot more than you think they do! If this alone isn't reason to change, u don't know what is.


I know the marriage is dysfunctional. I have known it for a long time. That is why I have been trying to get us into counseling. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Best of luck Copper. I'm checking out of this thread for awhile. If she will not go to counseling with you, at least go for yourself.


Thank you for your help and advice.


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Not often. 5-6 times over 26 years of marriage doesn't see so bad to me. Way, way, back near the front of this thread, people said part of my problem is I don't have any passion.
> 
> You started this thread about one month ago - and have written more than 5-6 instances that happened this past month and described many others that have happened throughout the marriage - so not sure how you can keep saying this!
> 
> ...


Only you can decide if your marriage is worth saving or not. You always have the option to leave things be and to continue in the "comfortable/uncomfortable" marriage you had - and continue to have. If this is the right answer for you and for your family - then continue the course you are on. 

Many people live mostly-content in marriages like yours their whole life. Just because many of us here would not - could not live in a marriage like yours - does not mean that you can't and that you can not do so and find a way to be happy in it. It's your life, your choice, and your happiness. You control it, you implement your choices, and you live with the results. The right choice for you is determined solely by you based on what you can live happily with or what you can not live happily with. If you find that your choices are making you feel miserable and discontent most of the time - then you are probably making the wrong choicec for you. Eventually - if you become miserable enough - you will have a pivotal moment - and the pain will force you to change your course of action.

If you are happy and content the majority of the time - which you keep insisting you are - then why rock the boat anymore? Again - just learn to be happy with your reality. Besides - I have a feeling that your learning to be happy will be a heck of a lot easier for you to actually accomplish than getting C2 to change.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jaquen said:


> You don't understand that a man with any self respect at all wouldn't hold the beliefs you do or take half the sh*t you endure.


Before you leave, if you would indulge me in what beliefs you are refering too. I'm genuinely curious. 

The other side of that comment... I endure because I feel like I have to for a number of reasons, and so long as I control my libido, its not that bad. Part of it may be because I have never had as much sex as I wanted. I'm used to wanting. 


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Your sexual rejection has eroded and continues to destroy our relationship AND my love for you.
> 
> Your refusal to go to counseling shows me clearly your lack of love and respect for me.
> 
> ...


I have said things similar to this is the past. No threats, but telling her she isn't treating me right. The reaction is that I'm the one that is creating the problem. I'm the one that is asking for more than is reasonable. I'm the one that needs to change because I have unreasonable expectations. She refuses to acknowledge that she has any role in the issue. This is the thing that flummoxes me. The only problem she sees is me making unreasonable demands. If I could just get her to admit that WE have a problem, that would be progress, and maybe we could do something about it.

The last time we had a come to Jesus encounter of the type you suggest was about a year ago, and we haven't been intimate since. It's been the best year of our marriage in a long time as far as she is concerned. Having her tell me that was a bit disheartening.

And the 5-6, probably should bump up to 6-7 now. I count all this stuff as one episode. She gets all bent out of shape, acts out, sometimes in several different ways, but it is all still just one episode. 

If I were to count each incident? It would be hundreds of times. But they would be lumped into 6 or 7 groups, and always around the times where I was pushing or otherwise "rocking the boat." 

The thing is, I WANT to be happy as it is now. Compared to some, I actually have it pretty good. And a lot of the time, if I can stay busy and engaged with other interesting projects, I can keep the hard feelings at bay.

The very first post, the one that started this thread, was asking for help for that very thing. Does anyone have any advice on how to remain happy in a less than ideal situation? I feel like I should be able to do it. And for a while, I thought I had. But in the end, I failed to keep up my end of the bargain that I made with C2 13 months ago... and that was I was done and I wouldn't bother her any more. 


Copper


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Copper - is it possible that you have mild Asperger's like your daughter? Your calmness and lack of emotional responses to your wife's behavior towards you - and your seemingly lack of emotional reaction to posters comments seem a bit out of whack to me! Every thing seems to be matter of fact to you and you exhibit little if any normal emotional reaction to anything! :scratchhead: 

Also - you just mentioned that you traveled the majority of the time in your early marriage before kids. Did the travel continue after kids? 

Perhaps the counselor is on to something and there ARE some deep rooted resentment issues C2 has built up over the years and it contributes to her relating to you the way she does. Not that it excuses her behavior, but perhaps it would be something to explore a little more. If your appearance of extreme emotional detachment and reaction here on this forum is an indication of how you have acted around C2 most of your marriage - combined with you being gone a whole lot - I could easily see these things combined causing some deep seated resentment to develop and fester over the years. 

I also wonder about yours and C2's family and religious background. Is sounds like she could possibly have some "good girls don't" syndrome tendencies. She definitely has some deep rooted emotional sexual hangups that she has gotten from somewhere. I still wonder if she was a victim of sexual abuse. 

Not really sure it matters - probably a moot point - since she refuses counseling. But thought I would throw it out there for what it is worth.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Just one big happy close knit family! Well - almost!!

Do you have any friends - does your wife have any friends? Do you have any meaningful relationships outside your marriage?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Copper - is it possible that you have mild Asperger's like your daughter? Your calmness and lack of emotional responses to your wife's behavior towards you - and your seemingly lack of emotional reaction to posters comments seem a bit out of whack to me! Every thing seems to be matter of fact to you and you exhibit little if any normal emotional reaction to anything! :scratchhead:


Is it possible? I guess anything is possible. I don't display any of the classic symptoms, like focusing on one item to the exclusion of all others or being unable to communicate well. 

I think the more likely answer is I have just trained myself to be like this. I have always worked in a high-stress job. In IT, when the <censored> is hitting the fan, getting excited and just reacting is not a good solution. That is how mistakes are made that compound your problems. So I have trained myself over my career to take a step back, evaluate the problem, think about appropriate actions, then execute. 

It is not impossible that mindset bleeds over into my personal life. 

The reason I don't take offense here is because I know everyone is trying their very best to help me. I would have be a completely ungrateful <censored> to become upset when I'm the one that asked for help and people are giving their time and effort to help me.





mary35 said:


> Also - you just mentioned that you traveled the majority of the time in your early marriage before kids. Did the travel continue after kids?


For several years leading up to my marriage and for a couple of years afterwards, I traveled installing bank software. If you wrote checks or used an ATM in the late eighties, I would say the odd were good that you used software that I helped develop. 

After we were married, I realized that while that might work as a life for a single guy, it was no life for a married man. So I started easing myself out and looking for another job. 

I left that and went to work for a petrochemical company, where I worked for a few years, then the oil industry tanked and I was going to be laid off at the end of the year. I found a job in NC and we moved before the layoff happened. C2 had to give up her career and leave her family behind. I hated to do that to her, but it was that or be unemployed. I never been unemployed a day in my life, a fact that I am proud of. 

We were here for about 18 months when C2 became pregnant. She was working in the private sector for the first time in her life, and hated it. She was stressed out ALL the time, then getting pregnant on top of that. 

She worked for a short time after our oldest was born, but then SHE was caught in a layoff. She finally found a job in the public sector again and has been there ever since. She is much happier now that she is working in the public sector again, and she has thrived where she is at.





mary35 said:


> Perhaps the counselor is on to something and there ARE some deep rooted resentment issues C2 has built up over the years and it contributes to her relating to you the way she does. Not that it excuses her behavior, but perhaps it would be something to explore a little more. If your appearance of extreme emotional detachment and reaction here on this forum is an indication of how you have acted around C2 most of your marriage - combined with you being gone a whole lot - I could easily see these things combined causing some deep seated resentment to develop and fester over the years.
> 
> I also wonder about yours and C2's family and religious background. Is sounds like she could possibly have some "good girls don't" syndrome tendencies. She definitely has some deep rooted emotional sexual hangups that she has gotten from somewhere. I still wonder if she was a victim of sexual abuse.


This question has been asked before. I think it highly unlikely that she was abused as a child. BUT, she is/was deeply religious. I'm agnostic. I have never hid that fact from her and she chose to marry me anyway. I don't discourage her from attending her church of choice... in fact I encourage it... but the fact that I don't get all wrapped up in the mysticism of religion used to bother her. Maybe still does, though she doesn't mention it any more. She is still very much, "I will leave that in the hands of God," and I am, "No, we have to deal with this because we have to control our own destinies." 

Her family is very, very close. Her aging mother lives with C2's sister. They are very touchy feely. C2 delights in telling the story of how every Thanksgiving they would Wednesday as soon as her father got home, drive 12 hours to grandmothers, have Thanksgiving dinner, then immediately leave and drive 12 hours home so her Dad could go to work Friday. To me, that's just crazy. 

My family is more hard charging, do your own thing, help or get out of my way, type people. Needless to say, our families only tolerate each other. 





mary35 said:


> Not really sure it matters - probably a moot point - since she refuses counseling. But thought I would throw it out there for what it is worth.


One of the offers I have put on the table in the past is for us to talk to a pastor, thinking maybe she would be more comfortable doing that. I haven't mentioned it to her in a while, but that offer is still on the table if she wants to take it. She has refused that as well. 


Copper


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## speeedbump (Mar 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> We had our talk tonight, even though she was late getting home and tried to beg off because she was tired. I don’t believe there will be any touching or cuddling in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Imagine, if you will, how bad our talk could have gone. I will say now, you are probably wrong. It went much worse than that.
> 
> ...


Holy crap, this sounds like an exact transcript of when I try to have the talk with my wife!

Sorry, I'm several hundred posts back, trying to get through this in order.

There is so much of this situation that I can relate to. It's hard to sit still while I read this. I'm practically shaking with emotion. I just want to end things now.

I have no good ideas for you since I've probably tried the same things you have and have met with no more success. But you have my sympathy!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Just one big happy close knit family! Well - almost!!
> 
> Do you have any friends - does your wife have any friends? Do you have any meaningful relationships outside your marriage?


I have one close friend (Ann) and a few other lesser friends. I don't do much with them because all my friends have their own lives, but we do chit-chat regularly and I will occasionally do something with one my guy friends when their wife will let them go. 

Over the past year or so, I (and now my son) have been working on our pistol marksmanship skills. I practice several times a month, sometimes with one or more of the friends above, sometimes only with our son. My guy friends are encouraging me to sign our son up for shooting competitions because he can out shoot all them. He's that good. 

C2 has MANY more friends, but all of hers are either home, where she grew up, or online. She never leaves the house, even when I invite her to go with me to something where she COULD interact with someone she knows, such as the wives of the above mentioned friends.


Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Coop, I'm going to reiterate that in your situation I would be concerned five years from now - not now - even if you're ok with how things are. 

Think of you and her as health outcomes, acute and gone vs chronic. Very few of those outcomes favor you except the obvious acute and gone...

It's that simple. There's a reason I call my wife Nurse Florence Frigidaire...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Coop, I'm going to reiterate that in your situation I would be concerned five years from now - not now - even if you're ok with how things are.
> 
> Think of you and her as health outcomes, acute and gone vs chronic. Very few of those outcomes favor you except the obvious acute and gone...
> 
> It's that simple. There's a reason I call my wife Nurse Florence Frigidaire...


I know. I have thought about it. It is why I whipped myself in shape... so I would be here for the kids if or when something happened to her. 

It's just hard to admit failure and let it go. I keep thinking there has to be something I haven't tried yet, some action or word that I haven't used that would start to turn us around. 


Copper


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> The very first post, the one that started this thread, was asking for help for that very thing. Does anyone have any advice on how to remain happy in a less than ideal situation?


CopperTop, perhaps I am uniquely qualified to offer some input here. You see, my life has been much the same as yours, only I'm about 14 years further down the road than you. We celebrated our 40th anniversary last week. And most of those years have been sexless.

During several years of dating and the first 5 years of marriage our sex life was wonderful. At some point thereafter, my wife began to lose interest in sex, and her desire eventually dropped to zero. And like you, I became very unhappy and frustrated.

We went to counseling for several years, both individually and together. She had herself checked medically, went to a psychiatrist and a hypnotherapist, all to no avail. She simply could not regain interest in sex.

We talked about separating At one point she even encouraged me to leave because she felt so guilty about not being able to make me happy. But neither one of us could imagine our lives without the other. I tell you, when I first laid eyes on this woman it was love at first sight, and I love her just as much today.

At about the 20 year mark I knew I had to make a decision, either leave her, or quit wallowing in my misery and accept what I could not change. 

If I left, making myself happier would mean finding a woman that I could love as deeply, a woman that possessed all my wife's other qualities, and a woman with a long term healthy appetite for sex. Leaving would also mean going through an almost certain long term sadness that this particular woman was no longer in my life.

I decided to stay and quit approaching my wife about sex. It was the only area of discord between us. She would have probably continued to "give it up" from time to time, but knowing she didn't enjoy sex made it no fun for me. 

It was not long after I made my decision that I noticed that my feelings of resentment and disappointment were fading. After all, how could I resent a situation that I had chosen to stay in? How could I be disappointed if I wasn't expecting anything?

I know that most would see my decision as crazy, and such a decision is certainly not for everyone. But, it has resulted in a MOSTLY happy life. We have raised a wonderful family. We are both hard workers, and have become financially comfortable. We like all the same things, and we can afford to do almost anything we want. We are both retired now, and spend most of our time doing fun things together. Am I sometimes sad about the lack of sex? Of course, but I don't let that diminish all the other joys that life has given me. Over all, I am truly luckier than most.

Sometimes I wonder if I could get a "do over", knowing what I know now, would I make the same decision. I'd have to say _probably_. One thing I can say for sure, accepting things as they are a lot sooner would have saved me years of unhappiness.

CopperTop, my advice to you is to accept the fact that your wife HIGHLY unlikely to change. Quit beating your head against the wall to make it otherwise. Decide to be happy with what you have or leave to look for something better. Either way, just making a decision and sticking to it will make you feel better.

Most of all, don't worry about what others think of your decision, only you can know what's best for you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know. I have thought about it. It is why I whipped myself in shape... so I would be here for the kids if or when something happened to her.
> 
> It's just hard to admit failure and let it go. I keep thinking there has to be something I haven't tried yet, some action or word that I haven't used that would start to turn us around.
> 
> ...


"This marriage isn't working for me anymore and hasn't in a long time, I think it's time that we separate"


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Justinian said:


> CopperTop, perhaps I am uniquely qualified to offer some input here. You see, my life has been much the same as yours, only I'm about 14 years further down the road than you. We celebrated our 40th anniversary last week. And most of those years have been sexless.
> 
> ...
> ...
> ...


Thank you very much. I appreciate your input greatly. 

I totally understand what you are saying, but how do I let it go? I would if I could, but it's like hunger. Like hunger, I can ignore it, or get distracted and forget about it for a time, but I can't make it stop. 

How did you manage to let go?


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Tron said:


> "This marriage isn't working for me anymore and hasn't in a long time, I think it's time that we separate"


But then we would no longer be married. I want to save the marriage, if I can, not destroy it.


Copper


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> I remember watching 9½ Weeks a long time ago on either VHS or DVD. She was appalled and I believe that I watched most of the movie alone. I know any move that has a racy scene in it, she normally gripes about it being in there or leaves the room. To be fair, she has the same complaints about raw language. I would guess she hasn't seen an R rated movie in 20 years. Maybe more. I have only seen them when I rent one for me to watch.


What is her reaction to movies depicting a sexually frustrated woman with a man who just doesn't get it?

Examples would include Kate Wheeler (Cate Blanchett) in _Bandits_ or Yvette Marceau (Elisabeth Commelin) in _Chocolat_, which is probably even better because the harm of overly rigid morality is a theme embedded subtly throughout the entire film.


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## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm not reading this anymore. This man is allowing this woman to behave as she does. No sex because she is too dry in horse sh*t. Everything in his life is on her terms. Fine, live with it.

What is really unforgivable is the children are witnessing this completely disfunctional relationship. They see a woman who is so overweight she is going to die. When that happens, they may blame their monther but they will also blame the father.

This isn't going to change. He refused to act on all the really good advice. He is not a monster for wanting to have sex with his wife nor to require her not to commit suicide whilst her children watch.

I'm done with this. It's like watching a slowmo car crash.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> What is her reaction to movies depicting a sexually frustrated woman with a man who just doesn't get it?
> 
> Examples would include Kate Wheeler (Cate Blanchett) in _Bandits_ or Yvette Marceau (Elisabeth Commelin) in _Chocolat_, which is probably even better because the harm of overly rigid morality is a theme embedded subtly throughout the entire film.


I don't know. I may have to rent one of them and find out. I will let you know.

Thanks for the suggestion.


Copper


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Copper - You've been given some great advice, if your circumstances change and you would like to update us, send a moderator a PM and we'll reopen the thread, but for now this thread is going to be closed.


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