# Money matters..?



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Random thread interested in seeing what opinions are.

Went out with couple last night to some bar with cover band. Spent 80% of night talking to other husband while our wives shot the ****. 

Later that night on way home , wife and just chatting and she casually brought up other husbands income. This often comes up after hanging out with this couple, meaning that there must be some sort of salary /success talk going on with my wife and her friend . Makes me wonder, is this common? Like do women seriously discuss husbands successes or finances this much? Personally I think my wife has a keeping up with the joneses complex. I see it from her and other wives on facebook too. So my question is how common is this? It's like a femAle version of a pissing contest, or at least seems that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Don't blame this on women. Tacky and vulgar is not relegated to any particular sex.

I don't even ask people what they do for a living specifically to avoid dancing close to the subject of a persons income! Yuck, classless!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The majority of people won't be truthful when it comes to income so why bother?


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

totally.

asking what they do is one thing. Sure you could ballpark the $ in your head if you actually give a crap. But knowing what they do is sometimes a conversation piece. for example, the husband from the other night and I have our passion for business and strategy (cue the elevator music for some I'm sure), so we went on and on at the bar discussing our views on it. I like that sorta thing. But at no point did I give two craps if he made more or less than I did.

ehh this thread is probably a personal gripe. money = security = wrong reasons. greater issue at hand. see my other thread. hahaha.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> ehh this thread is probably a personal gripe. money = security = wrong reasons. greater issue at hand. see my other thread. hahaha.


Hi Boston,

Money = Success = Security in the eyes of many women.
And nothing is wrong about that.
We all compare ourselves to see how we " _measure up_" with others , so to speak.

I am also involved in my own business so I like to chat with other like minded men and women. I'm sure that whilst chatting with your friend at the bar, you were either mentally assessing his business savvy or subconsciously showing his some of yours.
Socializing with like minds , it is how we get information.

But your wife comparing you to him and telling you is not ok , especially if he's more successful in his field than you.
You need to tell her about it , she might not be doing it purposely , or maybe she is.
But tell her it's not ok.

BTW, I do remember your old thread.
How did things go at the marriage counselor? 
Has there been any improvement in her attitude towards you?

[Hope I'm not mistaking you with another poster!]


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Hi Boston,
> 
> Money = Success = Security in the eyes of many women.
> And nothing is wrong about that.
> ...


I told her on the way home "i have always known what __ makes because you've told me periodically. I'm not sure if thier situation is your benchmark or what, but I really don't care to hear about what he earns". She seemed surprised that I would suggest she always tells me, but she definately does.

Interestingly enough too (and this is not a TAM pissing contest, but hear me out) is that I make more than 95% of our other friends. So sometimes, yes in my head, it feels like she sought out the one person who makes more and decided that this would be a good one to mention actual numbers. I never hear about our other friends who earn 50k or 70k per year. This may also be a reflection of her girl friend that we hung out with. Meaning that her friend might be very much into the salary, so she feels the need to mention it everytime. WHile other girl friends she has do not mention it.

if you have the time, see my other thread in sex in marriage. its about 100 pages of banter.

in a nut shell, things are less tense/panic-y than they were in October/November. Definately note all resolved.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Do you get the feeling that she's trying to get you to " up the ante ", like push you to achieve more , knowing your tenacity , or does she come across as rubbing it in your face?


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Do you get the feeling that she's trying to get you to " up the ante ", like push you to achieve more , knowing your tenacity , or does she come across as rubbing it in your face?


I'm not sure. As suggested on my other thread, she does want a bigger house and I think sometimes wants the perception of a great life. Again, much more detail in the other thread. She also seems to beam with confidence or pride when talking to her friends/family about my career etc. She seems to recognize we're in a good spot, but I think sometimes she puts her blinders up towards the 95% and focuses on the 5% with a better financial status. Pure speculation on my part..

I wonder what she would do if I was pulling down a teacher's salary and we had much more limited options. I also avoid talking about what I earn with her and I don't mention raises etc. I remain relatively vague because I don't want to feed into her seeing me as a ticket (again, maybe she doesnt, but I internally feel she does). I'm admittedly hyper sensitive to this because I've spent a great deal of time pondering why she is in this relationship. 

Anyways I was just wondering how focused other wives or spouses are on thier significant other's income. and do they share this?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not sure. As suggested on my other thread, she does want a bigger house and I think sometimes wants the perception of a great life. Again, much more detail in the other thread. She also seems to beam with confidence or pride when talking to her friends/family about my career etc. She seems to recognize we're in a good spot, but I think sometimes she puts her blinders up towards the 95% and focuses on the 5% with a better financial status. Pure speculation on my part..
> 
> I wonder what she would do if I was pulling down a teacher's salary and we had much more limited options. I also avoid talking about what I earn with her and I don't mention raises etc. I remain relatively vague because I don't want to feed into her seeing me as a ticket (again, maybe she doesnt, but I internally feel she does). I'm admittedly hyper sensitive to this because I've spent a great deal of time pondering why she is in this relationship.
> 
> Anyways I was just wondering how focused other wives or spouses are on thier significant other's income. and do they share this?


She is young, isn't she? Like 30 or younger?

I talked about dh's salary when I was younger, too. Was it tacky and tasteless? Yes, I can see that. Was it being young and curious about how well he was doing relative to everyone else? For sure. Was it the right thing to do? Absolutely not. Do I regret it? Yes. Sorry, dh.

Eight years ago, I read an article about an engineering shortage and got an idea of what dh should have been making. I showed him the article and told him to ask for 25k. He balked and I screamed and hollered, called him names, and just generally showed my disgust and frustration. For whatever reason, he decided to ask for the raise.

He got it.

His boss told him it was worth the money to keep good engineers.

Dh never complained about getting more money. I don't think he ever apologized to me for not having been more aware of what was possible and going after it himself. It certainly made me feel insecure that I, a little old retired high school teacher, had the responsibility of making sure he was making the money he should.

Recently I pm'd Cletus and john117 about dh's salary. They assured me he is in the right range for his occupation and experience. I really appreciated that. I wish I could have trusted dh on his own for that. But because of what I feel was his shortcoming in getting the very best for us in the past, I felt compelled to ask other people if he was doing well enough.

The only way to get respect is to earn it.

I would encourage you to have a transparent talk with your wife about how what she is saying and doing makes you feel. I would encourage you, instead of shaming her or trying to put limits on her behavior, to encourage her to tell you as openly and honestly as she can how she feels, and what her insecurities in this area are.

But BB, you have to be strong enough to hear her, without getting defensive or passive or just shutting her off.

If you can really hear her, you can work out a plan both of you can live with in this area, and frankly, any other. 

It all starts with open, honest communication, respect for each other as human beings, and a commitment to work out a plan that together you can live with.

Good luck.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Life is not about money. Life is about accomplishment given what you have to work with. It's like the Westminster dog show where dogs are compared to the breed standards and not each other.

My biggest accomplishment is not what I make but that I have worked for three decades for the same place, despite many layoffs, that I got them to pay for my doctorate, and that I can get away working French hours as long as I do what I need to do. I don't work goulag hours, I have a lot of gravitas, and I'm the go-to person for what I do. 

I routinely get requests for interviews from places that make most of my colleagues wonder why I'm still here. I politely decline.

Btw, there's no engineering shortage and hasn't been one since the early 1980's. The shortage is on engineers willing to work for near Indian or so wages. It's all a myth to keep the temporary visa workers streaming on this country.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Btw, there's no engineering shortage and hasn't been one since the early 1980's. The shortage is on engineers willing to work for near Indian or so wages. It's all a myth to keep the temporary visa workers streaming on this country.


John, can you explain this a little more? This is not what I have read.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> Btw, there's no engineering shortage and hasn't been one since the early 1980's. The shortage is on engineers willing to work for near Indian or so wages. It's all a myth to keep the temporary visa workers streaming on this country.


John, this is not true. There is a shortage of engineers. Please look at the starting salaries of young American graduates. It is not at Indian or so wages. It starts well into the $70k with the hottest fields above $100k.

One of the reason temporary visa workers have lower paying job is because of their inability to easily switch companies.

In my field of work we had a lot of Russians and central Europeans coming in the 90s. Now they have been replaced by Indians and Chinese. The reality is if they have a green card or US citizenship they get the same high level salaries as the Americans.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, here's how it goes.

In the late 70s to early 80's many industries experienced tremendous growth esp. the computer business. Workers were needed because there were not enough people trained in engineering. Say 1982-1985. Defense was taking a lot of workers, green cards were limited in numbers, and wages / benefits kept growing. At that time we were getting the true best and brightest from other countries, myself included. 

The bleep hit the fan when the USSR collapsed and defense money dried up. Then a bunch of tech companies went under or merged etc obliterating places like the New England tech corridor. But green cards went from 30,000 a year in my days to 100,000. The caliber of overseas engineers dropped to that of a good USA state school. And temporary visas flooded the job market (H1-B)

In the mid-late 1990s Y2K, Windows, the Internet, etc created more growth and need for workers. But, all that was need for workers with very specific skills. Businesses found out they could get 'trained' workers from overseas for a quarter of the wages of USA workers who needed training.

Past 2000 it got worse as companies started replacing USA workers. Up to that point growth kept them employed. But after 2000 or so it was layoffs galore. Advances in telecommunications allowed the off-shoring of more jobs than ever before. 

When the mega recession hit in 2007-2008 that was it for most older USA workers in the tech industry. We were flooded by the 4th wave, the majority of which had degrees from low quality schools and little to offer other than 80 hour workweeks for a third of the wages of American workers. Big companies started outsourcing engineering and information technology work altogether.

My wife has been in information technology for three decades and the only way to survive is to acquire very specialized business knowledge, not just how to do this or that. Find a niche and pray that you stay put. Her team is two or three non-Indians (herself and a Couple others), 3-4 Indians on temp visas, and about 30 Indians in India. Not much different where I work, except my stuff is a bit off the wall and we don't see outsourcing because few people, Paducah or Bangalore, have my skills (but they only need a few of me at most, it's not a high demand skill)

The end result is that the industry has been transformed wage wise into the low earners, temp visas, contractors, a few new hires, and the high earners, far and few in between. Everyone else is usually a goner.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, again, USA salary numbers don't tell the true story.

Wages have been depressed overall, it is true that green cards or naturalized citizens (like me or my wife) get the same money as everyone else, but EVERYONE's wages are kept low by the availability of cheaper labor via temp visas, off shoring, etc. 

This is not the forum to discuss this, obviously, but in the 1980's annual pay raises were in the 6-8% rate, every 12 months. Today in many industries you'll be lucky to get 2-3% every two years. 

The level Of overseas talent we got has also dropped. In the 80s every Indian guy we hired was from the IIT or IIS schools, very prestigious places as good as any in the USA. Today we're getting shady trade school graduates with zero business skills.

Look up the term "purple squirrel" for further enlightenment


----------



## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

I sometimes talk about my BF job and his promotions when he gets them.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lovelyblue said:


> I sometimes talk about my BF job and his promotions when he gets them.


I think the OP means specific salary. His wife is insecure about how well he is doing.

It does not sound like it is that way for you.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> The level Of overseas talent we got has also dropped. In the 80s every Indian guy we hired was from the IIT or IIS schools, very prestigious places as good as any in the USA. Today we're getting shady trade school graduates with zero business skills.


Welcome to the global economy. The reason you do not see the IIT guys is because they tend to stay in India and feel the high paying jobs they have there. I think it is wonderful.

Is it a game changer for IT in the US, yes. Are all the engineering fields impacted the same way, no. There is no guarantee. 

It is not the US Visa program that has stressed wage levels in the US, it is productivity, mainly driven by rapid technological advances and the difficulty of the education system to keep up with it.


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

jld said:


> She is young, isn't she? Like 30 or younger?
> 
> I talked about dh's salary when I was younger, too. Was it tacky and tasteless? Yes, I can see that. Was it being young and curious about how well he was doing relative to everyone else? For sure. Was it the right thing to do? Absolutely not. Do I regret it? Yes. Sorry, dh.
> 
> ...


I'm not underpaid and have never let myself be. I'm super assertive with my career and wife has always recognized this. So if I'm on the high end , but hearing about other husbands 6 years older on a higher end, it signals to me that I'm short of some assemblance of expectations in her mind. And I guess my core belief is that my income shouldn't mean a thing to her . Good or bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Competition does not mean replacing a competent Ohio State engineer with some random guy from Osmania University in Hyderabad for a third of the wages, all for the benefits of shareholders and executives.

My wife has to train "her children" as her Indian project manager affectionately calls her trainees. Thankfully the children have no clue about USA business needs, practices, or policies so for now she stays put. The children share little knowledge with mom, and mom likewise shares very little with them. 

But my wife is not your middle if the road business analytics consultant, she packs nearly 3 decades of experience in her specific industry, a phd in applied math, and is current with her skills. To get this knowledge it would take several children four or five years with the company or the industry, and this ain't happening as the children can't stay here for more than a couple years on a temp visa and also they quit upon return to India or even while they're here. So she stays employed. 

It's little different for me, except my field is far more obscure. 

Globalization is good when done fairly and equitably, but in the USA it is often code word for "race to the bottom". At my work we outsource some engineering work to India, China, Mexico, and Ukraine and with no exception only the Mexicans have ever produced consistent good work. No offense to other nations but we've been doing this for 20 years and can predict the quality of work coming from any region. Most, like marriage, has more to do with attitude than competence. The Ukrainians produce great work but by the time you add project management and travel there's little savings. The Indians do it cheap but rarely do it well without half the team in the USA, thus negating any savings. The Chinese do it their way and get offended when we ask them to do what they agreed to do in the beginning. Best work so far has been Poland, low turnover, great skills and good guys. 

Signed
30 year Corporate Drone


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not underpaid and have never let myself be. I'm super assertive with my career and wife has always recognized this. So if I'm on the high end , but hearing about other husbands 6 years older on a higher end, it signals to me that I'm short of some assemblance of expectations in her mind. And I guess my core belief is that my income shouldn't mean a thing to her . Good or bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is great. You are doing that very well. Very responsible of you. Have you given your wife proof of this? Shown her something written that confirms you are where you say you are?

Maybe she needs a reality check. Have you pointed out that these guys are older? 

Money insecurity can take some of us away from all reason. We cannot think logically, esp. if we have known financial insecurity in the past.

Money should not matter, looks should not matter, sex happening or not should not matter, we all should just have no needs and be blissfully undemanding of one another. But that is not how it works, is it?


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

John, we will have to agree to disagree. I acknowledge your experience however, I have mine too.

I just have a hard to believe that it is all going to hell in the US because of some poor guys in the developing world and some corrupt politicians making it easier for immigrants to come in.

Each time I am in China, India or central Europe (believe me it is several times a year), I see people who want to make it. Each time I am in Western Europe I see a lot of complainers.

Over 20 years ago, when I came to this country, I saw a combative spirit that I really loved. I still see it today but I am sadden by post like yours because I know this is not the America I know.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John and Duguesclin, I think you two are in different industries, and that is why you see things differently. Both of you are certainly competent individuals. 

What can you agree on?


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not underpaid and have never let myself be. I'm super assertive with my career and wife has always recognized this. So if I'm on the high end , but hearing about other husbands 6 years older on a higher end, it signals to me that I'm short of some assemblance of expectations in her mind. And I guess my core belief is that my income shouldn't mean a thing to her . Good or bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BB, the reality is that it is not how much you are paid but how you compare with the neighbor. It is a human tendency.

I look at my boys, and they are always competing and comparing to each other. It is in us. We cannot stop it.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The America I know left the building about 2000. I don't mind competing with overseas resources on skill and capabilities, but the prevailing mode of competition is that three Indian engineers from dubious universities and some experience - maybe 10 years total - trump a single American engineer making as much as all three. In some areas they can be effective - drone level IT support - but in true science or engineering work they don't. 

A few years ago I participated in a project we did for the automotive industry. The managers were all too eager to outsource it to India till we realized maybe one in ten people there owned a car. We had to - and I kid you not - make a video showing a guy driving around and using our device in the vehicle. I used my high end video equipment to do the video taping and editing because - and I kid you not once again - we laid off most of our training people whose job was to do such videos :rofl:

I work in the electrical / electronics industry where we develop all kinds of stuff for individual customers and other companies. Most of what I do is at the beginning of the process, basically human performance analysis as it relates to product or process design (aka toaster oven psychology). That you can't outsource


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

BB, what do you think of what Duguesclin said, about what the neighbor does being important, even if it is not, really?


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

John I appreciate what you are saying. I guess we will have to continue this discussion at another time on a different thread.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I had to tell my wife to stop telling her friends how well we were doing. She was oblivious to it and was only talking about it because she was proud of me. However some of her friends I could tell were taking it as bragging. I honestly think she had to lose a few before she got it. 

Also, to be honest her comments didn't do me any favors when I had to spend time with her friends' husbands. It made feel really bad when one of our acquaintances that was going through a divorce said his wife constantly compared him to me in the financial area. I had no idea it was going on. 

I see it as an adult version of my dad can beat up your dad.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I had to tell my wife to stop telling her friends how well we were doing. She was oblivious to it and was only talking about it because she was proud of me. However some of her friends I could tell were taking it as bragging. I honestly think she had to lose a few before she got it.
> 
> Also, to be honest her comments didn't do me any favors when I had to spend time with her friends' husbands. It made feel really bad when one of our acquaintances that was going through a divorce said his wife constantly compared him to me in the financial area. I had no idea it was going on.
> 
> I see it as an adult version of my dad can beat up your dad.


This is exactly right. It's best not to say anything or to just mention in passing, if it fits into the context of the conversation or if someone asks.......


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you go by what neighbors do or say it will still make no sense because of different priorities. 

One of PreMedFrenchDaughter's close friends is an only child to parents who like to live the good life. 2 cruises a year, 4-5 times a week eating out, 2-3 concerts in Vegas etc to see has been rock stars, GNO's to Chicago or NYC, you get the idea. All on salaries less than ours. Their kid has traveled the world yet never thought to put much effort in school. She's studying music education in a private school and will likely work as a HS music teacher.

This would not be my choice - but I'm not her parents. Compare their lifestyle to ours and we look like paupers next to them. 

I've seen my share of such people - different priorities. Hard work? For other people (my friend works 32 hours a week and has done so since her daughter was an infant). Saving? The Money Tree will provide. And so on. 

I have lived in a neighborhood of high earners for close to two decades now. What amazes me is not how much my neighbors make - if I had to pin a number it would probably be $200-250k a year - but what they do for what they make. 

Actions speak louder than words, so since everyone has a similar cost house wealth is demonstrated by the little things like full lawn service, Christmas light hanging service, maid, au-pair, and expensive vacations. I don't socialize much with my neighbors but money never comes up as a discussion topic.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RH, she was probably just excited. Life is going to show her (and her friends) that there are many things more important than money.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> RH, she was probably just excited. Life is going to show her (and her friends) that there are many things more important than money.


I totally get that she was excited. What bothered me was her inability to understand that in general people don't want to hear about your success unless they are your mom or dad. She honestly didn't know any better.She does now though.

My wife and I definitely know that money isn't everything. We learned that when she fell ill last year. I would've traded every dime I had to make her better. I even prayed to god to take me instead of her. We are a super happy couple, but it doesn't mean we don't face obstacles.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I totally get that she was excited. What bothered me was her inability to understand that in general people don't want to hear about your success unless they are your mom or dad. She honestly didn't know any better.She does now though.
> 
> My wife and I definitely know that money isn't everything. We learned that when she fell ill last year. I would've traded every dime I had to make her better. I even prayed to god to take me instead of her. We are a super happy couple, but it doesn't mean we don't face obstacles.


My brother made a fortune in the tech sector, and my parents were over the moon. They probably overdid it, lol.

I bet your wife's friends would be fine with it now. Again, life shows us money just is not the most important thing.

I am sorry to hear about your wife's illness. Our son's cancer really made me think twice about how important money is. We still need it, though.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

We were talking about our husbands when they are naked...did you know her husband's penis is an inch longer than yours?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> We were talking about our husbands when they are naked...did you know her husband's penis is an inch longer than yours?


The point is that it doesn't matter how much money he is making, as long as they are both satisfied, right?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

At the income levels I'm used to seeing all that matters is whether it's 5, 6, or 7, or the very rare 8. 









(That's BMW series, not inches you pervs :lol: )


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dh laughed at your BMW comment, john.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

When I was married to my ex wife, I had, and still ave, a good job. I make about 40% above industry standard. She was a SAHM, and my single income was about on par with our married dual income friends. She frequently talked money with them and saw the kinds of things they were able to do that we weren't. She regularly questioned why I didn't make more, why we didn't have the money, wanted me to work over time when I was already gone 12 hours a day for work. She never stopped to consider that it wasn't an income problem...she was the problem, and blamed it on me. Also turns out she has NPD...go figure...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sorry to hear that, Sam. So glad you are with someone who makes you happy now.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Anyways I was just wondering how focused other wives or spouses are on their significant other's income. and do they share this?


We both work full-time. Our salaries and finances are combined. I'm the one who pays the bills. He's currently earning the most he ever has. It helps us towards our goals. We try to cover our living expenses on my lower salary so that his can go towards the mortgage/savings/vacation. If he wanted to change direction and it meant a lower income, I'd be supportive of this and in part because I know he's driven and has a strong work ethic. It's not so much about how much he's bringing in, although we both recognize what his current salary can mean for us. I do not share this with friends and/or how much he earns.

I know what my close friends earn though - as they do with me. This has come about through discussing career changes, promotions, negotiating at job interviews, that kind of thing. It makes no difference to us. I'm just crazy proud of them all - one friend worked her ass off and negotiated a significant salary increase; the friend who left her established career to start over as a school teacher and the passion she has for this; another who was a SAHM and went back into the workforce when her husband lost his job; the other who is having a hard time finding work in her industry - it doesn't matter what they earn and/or what I earn. It's just being supportive in whatever that means. 

As for our significant others... we don't discuss their income. We may share how they're doing, such as if one is interviewing, or one is changing career, or taking exams. That kind of thing.

OP - I haven't read your other thread. Is your wife involved with the finances? How does she contribute to the house-hold?


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

My ex in the past frequently boasted to everyone in regards to my success, and they resented her for that; spoiled princess from one rich family to another. Yet I know the truth, and have respect for her even to this day considering she was with me when I earned not even enough to cover eating out. She drove over to deliver food that she cooked for us to have together even though it tasted like sh-t (and still did over the course of our marriage in initial years)

But those were just her good sides, she has her bad. Still, non-material women are out there. It's something that well... continues to make me hesitate on these divorce forms.


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

MissFroggie said:


> You know what all your friends earn and so does your wife. Why is it strange for her to know if it's okay for you to know? It sounds like she is proud of your achievements and mentioning someone who is doing better might not be meant as a put down or criticism. *I went to school with a lot of my friends (they ended up as teachers). Same with her and her friends. So we know roughly what they do for work and without asking or sayign a specific number, common sense tells you thier range. This husbands salary is more than mine and it is literally the only salary $ figure I've heard her mention to me. Like she has never said Lisa's husband the postal worker makes $X per year. Only this one husband. *
> 
> You said she mentioned it casually, did she keep on about it or did you react quickly to it? Was it maybe just a casual comment you jumped on because it is something you feel sensitive about? How did that conversation go?*my reaction is typically "thats great. he's definately a smart dude." this salary talk is often accompanied by talk of thier house (bigger) and other status symbols. Oddly the trust fund discussion is never mentioned. Her friend comes from a super wealthy family who has helped her a long the way.*
> 
> If she is going on about it you need to talk about it with her, if you are sensitive about the subject and just feel like it is a dig you also need to talk with her about it.  Either way, finding out why she is mentioning it would help you move past it and stop her bringing it up. Good luck  *I've casually asked her if this couple is her benchmark, and she said no. SO I said, "ok. just wondering because I've known what he earns and thier house upgrades for years now".. as in I get updates from my wife on thier status essentially. This is why I asked this forum, because my wife doesnt mention why she talks about his salary or status. She said she could care less, but for some reason she likes me to hear it. *


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> When I was married to my ex wife, I had, and still ave, a good job. I make about 40% above industry standard. She was a SAHM, and my single income was about on par with our married dual income friends. She frequently talked money with them and saw the kinds of things they were able to do that we weren't. She regularly questioned why I didn't make more, why we didn't have the money, wanted me to work over time when I was already gone 12 hours a day for work. She never stopped to consider that it wasn't an income problem...she was the problem, and blamed it on me. Also turns out she has NPD...go figure...


dude this is exactly what annoys me. I get posted up frequently against dual income households. So and so is buying a new house. So and so went to hawaii. 

umm.. hey wife, so and so pull 1.5X what we do because both work.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

B,
There are a few things going on here and they are worth addressing separately. 

1. Your W's friend is competing with your W. It's part of an overall competition called: My life's better than yours is

She is doing it financially because she knows he makes a good bit more and has known that ever since the topic first came up between them. She isn't providing useful info, she is just using this to win the competition. 

2. Understandably your W doesn't like losing this game. But instead of manning up, she is quietly letting you know that it's your fault that she's losing this game to her friend. At some level she is hoping to motivate you to work harder so she can win. 

This is part of that theme you have with your W. She often doesn't seem to care how you feel. For instance this pattern of comparing you unfavorably to dual income families or to this one guy. 

I have a couple suggestions for dealing with this using a mix of humor and sincerity. More on that later tonight. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Random thread interested in seeing what opinions are.
> 
> Went out with couple last night to some bar with cover band. Spent 80% of night talking to other husband while our wives shot the ****.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Random thread interested in seeing what opinions are.
> 
> Went out with couple last night to some bar with cover band. Spent 80% of night talking to other husband while our wives shot the ****.
> 
> ...



Well but we, men, do the same in other areas. With my current girlfriend one of the 1st questions her friends and family asked about me was what I did for a living. None of my guy friends asked me that. Most still don't have a clue what she does. They all asked me what she looked like. So I think both genders have their priorities. Not to say money is everything. I'm a public servant so I will never be rich. My girlfriend understands that


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> There are a few things going on here and they are worth addressing separately.
> 
> 1. Your W's friend is competing with your W. It's part of an overall competition called: My life's better than yours is
> ...


exactly. I'm not sure if she lacks empathy for me (for xyz reasons) or if it is her overall personality/being that lacks empathy for people. 

I tend to take it personal, as in she may not care about ME or may not love ME. Or should I say, I used to take it more personal. As you have (maybe) noticed in other thread, I'm doing better at separating things from being personal etc.

I also have to recognize that she seems to lack empathy for a lot of things. I've heard 1,000 times "i dont feel bad for ___..its thier problem and they shouldnt have ___" . Things like addictions that people have or tough life situations or sicknesses caused by smoking etc.. She seems to lack compassion for people who can't get out of a hard spot. So while I may say "boy its really too bad that Bill stopped drinking too late and now has liver failure", she will respond with "well he should have thought about this when he was drinking so much.. i mean its sad..but he did this to himself". I cant really explain i but you likely know what I mean. 

also i look forward to your continued feedback as mentioned above..


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well but we, men, do the same in other areas. With my current girlfriend one of the 1st questions her friends and family asked about me was what I did for a living. None of my guy friends asked me that. Most still don't have a clue what she does. They all asked me what she looked like. So I think both genders have their priorities. Not to say money is everything. I'm a public servant so I will never be rich. My girlfriend understands that


Sad, but true. Women are judged on their looks (what they were born with, no choice in the matter), and men are judged on their wallets (more opportunity there, esp. if you are a hard worker).


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> There are a few things going on here and they are worth addressing separately.
> 
> 1. Your W's friend is competing with your W. It's part of an overall competition called: My life's better than yours is
> ...


MEM, I don't think this is fair. BB's wife is young, and I think a lot of young women do this, and they are not bad people.

I asked my friends out of curiosity. Yes, I was wondering how dh compared financially to their husbands, but it is not like I was trying to be the queen of the hill. It was genuine curiosity.

Dh was not overly motivated by money. But I knew we needed it. We did not have internet then (the 90s) and how else did one find out what a husband should be making? You could call it _looking out for the best interests of the family._ 

I understand men may be sensitive about this topic. But I don't think we have to ascribe bad motives to the women involved.

As a matter of fact, the men could ask themselves if their wives have a point. And if they don't, they could explain to their wives how they see the situation, and really try to understand where their wives are coming from. Then, together, they could come up with a way of dealing with this that makes them each feel good about the situation.

And if they still can't figure it out, then they could come to a marriage board and ask for help.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Some amount of this is fine. 

However there is a point at which repetition takes on it's own meaning. It then ceases to be information, and is more of a complaint or critique. 






jld said:


> MEM, I don't think this is fair. BB's wife is young, and I think a lot of young women do this, and they are not bad people.
> 
> I asked my friends out of curiosity. Yes, I was wondering how dh compared financially to their husbands, but it is not like I was trying to be the queen of the hill. It was genuine curiosity.
> 
> ...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Random thread interested in seeing what opinions are.
> 
> Went out with couple last night to some bar with cover band. Spent 80% of night talking to other husband while our wives shot the ****.
> 
> ...


I have never chatted about my or my husband's salary nor asked anyone there's. It would be very rude to go there IMO.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

jld said:


> Sad, but true. Women are judged on their looks (what they were born with, no choice in the matter), and men are judged on their wallets (more opportunity there, esp. if you are a hard worker).


Correction:

Women are judged on their looks + personality
Men are judged on their wallet + looks + personality



Beauty's in the eye of the beholder anyway


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My judgement criteria are more like Education, Culture, Wallet, Region of World, Personality, Looks 

Any takers?


----------



## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

3 things I don't discuss with people IRL;
1) Religion 
2) Politics
3) Money

Truthfully, if anyone really wanted to know what my H makes, they could figure it since he is a service member & all of that info is public knowledge. Still, I don't bring it up or discuss it, as it is literally no one's business but our own. To me it's tacky to ask & divulge the info. Then again, I don't have a Keeping Up With The Joneses mentality as I could give give two figs what anyone else is doing, they're not paying my bills.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> Some amount of this is fine.
> 
> *However there is a point at which repetition takes on it's own meaning. It then ceases to be information, and is more of a complaint or critique*.


Hi, MEM. Dh and I were just reading this and wondering if you could explain a little more? We weren't quite sure what this meant, and we would like to. Thank you.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Sure. 

If you look at the overall context this is what you see:
- B2 has clearly expressed her desire for a larger house 
- And wants a second child soon
- The second child fits into this conversation because it implies her financial contribution will not increase and will likely decrease. 

Given that, her comments are clearly directed at B. She is letting him know that she wants/expects him to crank his income a lot higher to provide her the lifestyle she wants. 

The observations above are fact and simple analysis. Those that follow are my subjective opinion. 

Instead of thanking B for working hard and being successful, she is letting him know that she wants/expects more. And that's why she limits her comparisons to the one man who earns more or to dual income couples whose total income is higher. 

In short her message is this: I want the higher social status that comes with having nicer STUFF, and expect you (Boston) to do whatever it takes to provide that. 



QUOTE=jld;7520481]Hi, MEM. Dh and I were just reading this and wondering if you could explain a little more? We weren't quite sure what this meant, and we would like to. Thank you. [/QUOTE]


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In which case, B's response should be to get her to polish her resume and forget about another little B (b?)

Also think in terms of what material needs she has vs income. One does not often walk from one job to another with a 20% hike in the same city - ask if moving is in the picture, and bring in job safety and security While you're at it...

Likewise make the house an either / or proposition. If we get the house we can't afford x y and z, and so on...


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

There is nothing wrong to ask for more. If he can provide it great, but if he can't they will have to find a way to both accept it.

I know a lot of guys, and I include myself, who tend to fall into complacency and relax a little bit. I am lucky I have a wife that kicks my butt once in a while. It has help me a lot. I hope it helps Boston a little.

It is probably not right to compare incomes, but it has always existed.

I just took a walk and saw a guy with a brand new BMW 7 series. The car looks really great. I do not know the guy, but I would not be surprised he bought it just to show his status. Comparing has always existed and if it helps Boston to get stressed a little bit like I have in the past, then why not. As long as he stays open and communicates with his wife, it can only be beneficial.

Of course, she needs to grow to and go beyond keeping up with the Joneses. They both need to work it out and find the right balance.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Emotional judo*

B,
I'm going to tell you a quick story because I want you to think about a different way to approach this with B2.

Almost half of everything that M2 and I have ties back to a single large transaction. I was in the zone back then and my execution of the deal was close to flawless. But there were a couple of ugly surprises that damn near derailed it. Thanks to M2 I was filled with the positive emotional energy that comes from a great and passionate marriage. And that's what kept me centered each time that chaos erupted. 

So here's the thing, when B2 hits this theme relating to having more stuff, you tell her the truth which is this:
- I want that stuff too, we both want the same things
- A surprisingly large part of success is based on emotional energy. The more emotional energy we create together, the more successful I will be. 

-----
And the next time she brings it up you give her the short version:
Emotional energy drives success which buys nicer stuff.....

And the third time you ask her: Do you think you're doing your part to create the environment needed for me to succeed? 

Let her answer. And then respond honestly. If she is, and she says she is, just nod. If she isn't and claims she is, just give her a puzzled look and say 'Hmm'. 

After 3 rounds of this your model should be simple. If she's contributing the emotional energy you want, you respond with: We are both doing what's needed to produce a successful outcome. 

B, 
I know what B2 is like. She's capable of being quietly cruel. So she may poke at you about how she isn't seeing any immediate results. And you need to just laugh and pour a cold dose of reality on her with:
We both know you could have married a money/career obsessed guy. He'd be older and fatter and not all that tolerant of your (long pause here) quirks. And he wouldn't be nearly as funny as me. 

And then show a little teeth - soft voice: Is that what you want?




BostonBruins32 said:


> exactly. I'm not sure if she lacks empathy for me (for xyz reasons) or if it is her overall personality/being that lacks empathy for people.
> 
> I tend to take it personal, as in she may not care about ME or may not love ME. Or should I say, I used to take it more personal. As you have (maybe) noticed in other thread, I'm doing better at separating things from being personal etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Comparing incomes becomes interesting when you realize what people do for what they make. 

I find it strange that I make as much as a guy who is a "regional sales manager for a roofing products company".

A couple of state-wide managers for Sears and and JC Penney (say, you're paying what?)

A husband and wife pharmaceutical science types. 

An orthodontist ($$$$$$)

Couple lawyers

A trust fund baby in her early 40s, single and available (hmmm) 

Or my all time favorite, the guy who makes as much as two science PhDs selling those plastic condiment cups you see at fast food places.

It's also funny what happens when you hit it BIG. A couple of neighbors got promoted or did well and built Oprah spec houses beyond belief. One went from patent lawyer manager to VP legal in his firm and the other owns a factory that makes generic sweetener packets. 

This place is indeed paved in gold...


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Correction:
> 
> Women are judged on their looks + personality
> Men are judged on their wallet + looks + personality
> ...


I don't know RD. Depends on how much is in that wallet. If its a lot looks matter less and less.


----------

