# Maybe it's me...



## Michie

Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?

Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
I did not want to marry another Father. I thought marriage was a partnership.

Why do men automatically jump to the assumption; "my wife seems to have lost respect for me, I better take the reins!" 
Instead of investigating why to respect or admiration is gone.
Il
Now to clarify, most us will agree that indecisiveness is a trait we all dislike, however does my respect diminish because my husband can't decide on what dinner he would prefer? No

Yeah my thoughts are jumbled. If a woman fell in love with a man, and that man through years of comfort has a change of trait or personality it's a different matter all together, but hell they fell in love for a reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zig

It's really simple: men, collectively, will do whatever it takes to get sex. The way that men (in general) behave towards women is a reflection of what it takes to get sex. If rescuing stray puppies and helping around the house got men sex they would do that, but it doesn't. The Coping with Infidelity section is full of beta men who have been "perfect" husbands writing about finding their wives in bed with unemployed men/drug addicts who are all alpha.

It's nice that you're an exception to the rule but statistical studies have shown that husbands who help around the house and are in "equal partnership" marriages have the least sex of all men. Alpha/unstable men get the most sex. 

I was kind of like this is in college. I was even a member of a feminist organization on campus. I remember the girls talking about how terrible "frat culture" was but guess who these feminists were partying with on weekends?


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## Tall Average Guy

Michie said:


> Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?
> 
> Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
> I did not want to marry another Father. I thought marriage was a partnership.
> 
> Why do men automatically jump to the assumption; "my wife seems to have lost respect for me, I better take the reins!"
> Instead of investigating why to respect or admiration is gone.
> Il
> Now to clarify, most us will agree that indecisiveness is a trait we all dislike, however does my respect diminish because my husband can't decide on what dinner he would prefer? No
> 
> Yeah my thoughts are jumbled. If a woman fell in love with a man, and that man through years of comfort has a change of trait or personality it's a different matter all together, but hell they fell in love for a reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Part of the "alpha talk" (at least from my perspective) is getting back to those traits that attracted your spouse (usually wife) in the first place. I think too often in marriage both sexes have this idea that men should become more domestic and more accomadating. While this is true on one level, it can easily become too much, where the man effectively becomes a yes man for every decision by his wife. He can loose the traits that made him attractive in an effort to be what he thinks he is supposed to be and his wife wants.

No one wants someone with 100% alpha traits in a long term relationship. What they really want is a balance, with some alpha traits (from enforcing their boundaries to being passionate about an activity to taking care of their crap) and some beta traits (missing the game to take your wife to the theater to washing laundry to taking care of her when she is sick). I don't worry about if I an alpha, beta, omega, whatever. What I do worry about is whether I am working on being the type of man that I want to be and whether I am being the husband that my wife really needs. For me personnally, that was about focusing more on some of my alpha traits as I had gotten off the road I wanted to travel.

While I did laugh at your dinner example, I do think that it is an important one. For the man who has lost his weigh, this is a small first step toward getting back on the road. Much like the guy who is 100 lbs overweight does not start out by running a marathon, the guy who has become the yes man is not going to start by discussing their work/life balance. So dinner is a good first step that start the process of getting back to balance. 

Using your reigns analogy, it is not necessarily about taking back the reigns (though for some couples that may well be the best result), but about taking your turn at the reigns.


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## SpinDaddy

Agree, this whole Alpha/Beta thing originated with monkeys, lions and tigers. We (**** sapiens) have opposable thumbs and bigger brains. I’m more concerned about “maning-up” and doing the right thing as a father, husband and leader of my family and community.


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## StoneAngel

Much of this Alpha/Beta stuff makes me rather nauseated. Many of its ideas and priciples are stereotypical and misguided IMO and they should be viewed as offensive to females and males a like.

I had a brilliant man once tell me that the feminist idea of a 50/50 relationship was flawed and in his opinion a major factor of the increased divorce rate. As a pretty strong, opinionated female I probed him further, prepared my agruments and waited for the debate to begin.

He didn't reference gender roles, stereortypes, sociology or psychology, his reponse was simply....Human Need and Math.

HIS THEORY:
If two parties are one half of a whole (50/50 split) the math says both parties must function at 100% all the time, in order for the Whole to function as a Whole and not have any deficits and in the Human World this is impossible.

We are human, and we all know that is impossible to give 100% of ourselves all the time. We get sick, have fears, bend under pressure and stress, etc etc and are imperfect by design (whether male or female).

It was this man's opinion that a healthy, functional relationship is one that is either a 60/40 or 70/30 split (depending on what life struggles the couple are facing at that particular time) A healthy relationship is capable of seeing where there is a requirement for extra effort and what spouse is in need of that extra effort. Hence the role of Supporter/Leader/Nurturer (whatever word defines it for whatever particular situation at the time) flip flops between spouses.

His view stuck with me! My husband and I have functioned this way for much of our marriage. For example, I work shift and know he will have a wonderful meal on the table when I get home, and that laundry will be done, and that our kids are happy etc. Does he do this every day? No. Is it my expectation of him? No. Does he do it to garner favour with me? No. 
Normally do I pick up more tasks and errands at home? Yes. I do this because I work part-time. Is this his expectation of me? No.
Are any of our tasks or duties as adults/parents defined by gender roles? Not that I can tell. I can do home DIY projects and he can bake a cake (and I can attest that it is incredibly SEXY!).
We both do things in this manner because there is a NEED and often only one of us available to fill the Need. So in our relationship the role and degree of responsibilty flip flops!! 70/30! It is brilliant.

We have our problems. I have a big need he that due to his own life experiences and fears he can not seem to meet (it is a work in progress and MC is helping) but I can attest that household duties and gender role reversals have NOT deprived my husband from having a healthy sex life and further to this our household environment is free from endless, ridiculous, nagging and fighting. There is lots of spare time and play time for us as a family. I would not have it any another way. 
Sometimes for change to occur some of us need to be given permission and support that our ideas, thoughts and feelings are valid. For the doormat male, I am sure the ALPHA "mantra" is invaluable and empowering, but I wrestle with the stamina and speed of it's "legend", when by all rights evolution and education should have pegged the Alpha/Beta philosophy as outdated


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## Zatol Ugot?

SpinDaddy said:


> Agree, this whole Alpha/Beta thing originated with monkeys, lions and tigers. We (**** sapiens) have opposable thumbs and bigger brains. *I’m more concerned about “maning-up” and doing the right thing as a father, husband and leader of my family and community*.


Actually, it looks like you are off to a great start in defining what Alpha actually means. And don't kid yourself. As much as modern man likes to think that we have surpassed the baser underpinnings of our nature, all of our latte-sipping at Starbucks goes out the window when compared to our natural instincts. You don't just escape a couple of million years worth of evolution and biology because we now use iPhones. 
For many people, the whole Alpha/Beta conversation brings to mind two diametrically opposed images. 1) The hyper, testosterone flooded, uber macho type that is basically an azzhole and 2) The mild, meek pleaser who does whatever it takes to avoid conflict by being subserviant to others. Neither of these really represent the concept. I think the idea of Alpha/Beta is misconstrued (no matter how you feel about it) and many times those that believe in the concepts are a bit too zealous in their description and application, thereby turning other people off of the concept.


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## IndiaInk

I'm a big believer in the "alpha/beta thing"...though I've never called it that until coming to this forum...

For me it's simply: *Gender Roles*. and acknowledging that:

They exist. They're important. And people need to know their role.

I think political correctness and feminism made everyone "ashamed" to admit that:

men like women who act like women

and 

women like men who act like men.

And when these roles get skewed and blurred....ATTRACTION takes a cliff dive.

I imagine all of the alpha/beta books are off-putting to read. 

They distill this down to a playbook...which makes it seem like a game...and they probably do suggest that guys micromanage their "male behavior" to an extreme that isn't necessary (is that where your dinner reference came from?)

And the things is...I'm not Betty Crocker...for me, this is just boils down to science...and obeying the laws of nature.

Oh and loss of RESPECT is HUGE HUGE HUGE in marriages (especially women losing respect for their husbands)...and most of this does come back to gender roles.

Now if you can make a good case against them...I'd be very interested in reading it...(but I think you'll be hard pressed to so)


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## CandieGirl

Michie said:


> Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". *But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?*
> 
> Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

:rofl: at least I'm not alone! :rofl:


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## Tall Average Guy

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Actually, it looks like you are off to a great start in defining what Alpha actually means. And don't kid yourself. As much as modern man likes to think that we have surpassed the baser underpinnings of our nature, all of our latte-sipping at Starbucks goes out the window when compared to our natural instincts. You don't just escape a couple of million years worth of evolution and biology because we now use iPhones.
> For many people, the whole Alpha/Beta conversation brings to mind two diametrically opposed images. 1) The hyper, testosterone flooded, uber macho type that is basically an azzhole and 2) The mild, meek pleaser who does whatever it takes to avoid conflict by being subserviant to others. Neither of these really represent the concept. I think the idea of Alpha/Beta is misconstrued (no matter how you feel about it) and many times those that believe in the concepts are a bit too zealous in their description and application, thereby turning other people off of the concept.


This is a large part of the reason I have started referring to alpha and beta traits, as opposed to alpha and beta people. There are very few truly alpha or beta people. Rather, people are a mix of traits. 

Balancing those traits, coupled with being true to the type of person that you want to be and enforcing your boundaries should be the goal.


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## StoneAngel

IndiaInk said:


> I'm a big believer in the "alpha/beta thing"...though I've never called it that until coming to this forum...
> 
> For me it's simply: *Gender Roles*. and acknowledging that:
> 
> They exist. They're important. And people need to know their role.
> 
> I think political correctness and feminism made everyone "ashamed" to admit that:
> 
> men like women who act like women
> 
> and
> 
> women like men who act like men.
> 
> And when these roles get skewed and blurred....ATTRACTION takes a cliff dive.
> 
> I imagine all of the alpha/beta books are off-putting to read.
> 
> They distill this down to a playbook...which makes it seem like a game...and they probably do suggest that guys micromanage their "male behavior" to an extreme that isn't necessary (is that where your dinner reference came from?)
> 
> And the things is...I'm not Betty Crocker...for me, this is just boils down to science...and obeying the laws of nature.
> 
> Oh and loss of RESPECT is HUGE HUGE HUGE in marriages (especially women losing respect for their husbands)...and most of this does come back to gender roles.
> 
> Now if you can make a good case against them...I'd be very interested in reading it...(but I think you'll be hard pressed to so)


No one said you had to be Betty Crocker and I agree that to simplify the relationships between men and women it comes down to roles....whether the decision of who's role is who's is totally dependent on Gender I disagree. I think the decision should be based on skill, comfort, ability and need, save for one very distinct and separate issue and that is protection. 

Every woman who is involved with a man needs to know that, that man has her back, will protect her at all costs, will defend her honour, support her and put her above all others. Anything shy of it, a woman will not view her husband as Safe, there is limited trust and road blocks to real intimacy.
Proof of whether a man has the ability to Protect his partner is not diminished by whether the man changes dispers or bakes a cake. The proof comes from how a husband talks about his wife in public, how the couple enters a room together, whether the husband leaves himself open to the attentions of other women, and what boundaries he is willing to put between himself, his wife and the outside world.

Far too many threads on TAM, have posts that reference the sexual attraction that occurs for a woman when she has a buff, fit, "appealing to other women" husband. Many men on this forum and others, have adopted a sterotypical "ideal" of what is appealing to a woman and have over simplified "what women want" on adolescent principles. 
Becoming fit and hanging with the boys may very well stroke ones ego, make you healthier, happier and may finally get you laid by your wife. Your wife may draw closer to you, out of jealousy, a challenge, and the primal instincts to be appealing to her newly physically changed spouse, but I think that motivation is short lived and is soon replaced by fear. Fear that you might be stolen and she might be replaced. Fear=Not Safe=No Intimacy. 
Most women got over chasing after the Jock in highschool, for this very reason.
Primal instincts only go so far, there must be some sort a balance.

Please no bashing because of the ego stroking comment...both males and females need their egos stroked every once in awhile. I was not suggesting it was a bad thing.


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## Saki

Zig said:


> It's really simple: men, collectively, will do whatever it takes to get sex. The way that men (in general) behave towards women is a reflection of what it takes to get sex. If rescuing stray puppies and helping around the house got men sex they would do that, but it doesn't. The Coping with Infidelity section is full of beta men who have been "perfect" husbands writing about finding their wives in bed with unemployed men/drug addicts who are all alpha.


Yep yep you can spout all day long about how BS all this alpha/beta sh1t is than you come home one day to see your wife screwing a complete stranger and it all sorta starts to make a lot of sense...


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## SimplyAmorous

The thing that bothers me so much about the Alpha / Beta talk is how positively Praised ALPHA is all over the internet....thanks to the Pick up Artists... and when one hears Beta...it is a slam word, a degrading ugly thing that men need to run from -otherwise Doormat becomes your middle name.... it is immediately associated with weakness, physical un-attractiveness, clingyness and being less of a man. 

Even the ALpha A$$ holes get more Respect...by men & women - what is wrong with us? 

Then some of the posts I've caught on here....time & time again, by men mostly.. but women too....insinuating that such men are superior ... he can have any woman he chooses, they are throwing themselves at him... and the woman who wins such a superior Alpha at the top of his game.... well.....she is of the highest value of course .... after all... 

Betas only get the left overs when the Alphas are done with them. Poor Beta males.

This sort of talk rubs me the wrong way very badly. I do not find men tipped more Alpha any superior than Men tipped more Beta... Even if women are not throwing themselves at such a man (a lot of us women don't know what is good for us anyway).... this in no way lowers his value as a husband or what he brings to that relationship.

How many of us are truly balanced in all things? I'm not. I could stand to have more patience - at times.



> *Tall Average Guy said*: This is a large part of the reason I have started referring to alpha and beta traits, as opposed to alpha and beta people. There are very few truly alpha or beta people. Rather, people are a mix of traits.
> 
> Balancing those traits, coupled with being true to the type of person that you want to be and enforcing your boundaries should be the goal.


 And there is nothing wrong with talking about these *TRAITS*...

Each trait has it's GOOD and it's BAD....

*Good ALpha* =


> Make no mistake: the world needs alpha males. When used appropriately, their courage, confidence, tireless energy, and fighting spirit make them natural leaders in competitive situations.


*Bad Alpha *=


> The trouble comes when they use their exceptional strengths inappropriately or carry them to such extremes that they turn into tragic flaws: their confidence becomes arrogance, their toughness becomes belligerence, and their competitiveness becomes a fight to the death in which even teammates are seen as rivals that have to be vanquished. Unfortunately for many alpha males, what works in a jungle or on a battlefield - or during a genuine crisis - is not always appropriate in today's business environment. Nowadays, leaders are expected to do more than command and control; they're called upon to motivate, inspire, teach, communicate, and model integrity and personal growth. Such skills do not come naturally to most alpha males, and those who fail to develop them are increasingly out of place.


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## that_girl

Stroking egos is a great thing. It keeps the sexy feelings flowing, no? Why wouldn't I stroke my husband's ego? He stroke's mine when he comments on my butt or like yesterday, saying, "Whoa! You did all this in the house AND took care of the puppy? I'm impressed. dang." Yea. that felt good. I smiled and liked his little stroking of my ego.

A mix is good. I have learned a TON of this in the last 4 days since getting a puppy. I never realized how much of a pack our family truly is. Our older dog (6 year old lab) has put the puppy in her place...and they both listen to me. However, when H is in the house, they DO NOT eff around. At all. It's amazing. They know, as dogs, that he is the big cheese. I hadn't noticed it until these last few days. It's kinda cool. I like it. He's not a strict Alpha....no. But he is the strong, quiet type. Takes no crap, gives no crap. It's a good mix.


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## Zatol Ugot?

that_girl said:


> They know, as dogs, that he is the big cheese. I hadn't noticed it until these last few days. It's kinda cool. I like it. He's not a strict Alpha....no. But he is the strong, quiet type. Takes no crap, gives no crap. It's a good mix.


Instinct. Don't fight it...find a way to channel it for good.


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## IndiaInk

StoneAngel said:


> No one said you had to be Betty Crocker and I agree that to simplify the relationships between men and women it comes down to roles....whether the decision of who's role is who's is totally dependent on Gender I disagree. I think the decision should be based on skill, comfort, ability and need, save for one very distinct and separate issue and that is protection.




Perhaps "gender roles" is too restrictive a term for what I'm referring to...because that term does imply tasks and jobs

And I completely agree that traditional male and female life tasks may be swapped without this hurting a marriage (although...I will say...this is not always the case)

Maybe "masculinity" and "femininity" would be better terms...and the issue is:

Who is wearing what 'energy' in your home? 

_"Every woman who is involved with a man needs to know that, that man has her back, will protect her at all costs, will defend her honor, support her and put her above all others. Anything shy of it, a woman will not view her husband as Safe, there is limited trust and road blocks to real intimate"_


Agree...but I think you've got half the story here. Yes, a woman needs to know that her husband _will_ be her protector. But there's more too it than that... subconsciously she needs to believe that he actually CAN support and protect her.

And her confidence *in his ability* to "be the man" comes from his masculinity

A husband who constantly cowers and capitulates to his wife is not masculine

A husband who washes dishes in the hope of getting sex is not masculine.

It kills respect and attraction


Works the other way too:

For example,

women who aggressively chase and persue their husbands sexually...often find themselves rejected...because they've assumed the "masculine" energy and that's unattractive

But there's no prototypical masculine male and feminine female:

A guy could be a star quarterback...or a librarian

He could be loud or quiet

Height and size don't make a bit of difference

This is something that comes from within...not without

Like I said, it's an energy...it's subtle...hard to see...really just felt...

These books on alpha/beta stuff probably take it the extreme. I admit, I find it hard to "read" about too...

It's easier when men and women just have a natural sense of the yin/yang dynamic in their relationship

But this is simply not the case in many marriages today...and that's probably why you see reactionary and extreme books trying to tip the scale back to a balance again


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## that_girl

I'm not fighting anything 

lolol.


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## Zatol Ugot?

IndiaInk said:


> It's easier when men and women just have a natural sense of the yin/yang dynamic in their relationship


I'm not into Eastern theology or beliefs but I believe that the concept you are describing is dead on.


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## Michie

Still think its BS men of the forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

Women like to talk about things that should work. Men just like stuff that really works. 

Don't get caught up in the language. Being Alpha just means you have what it takes to make women giggle like idiots and enhance their desire for you. It doesn't matter one bit if it fits your notion of how men-women dynamics should be. 

The evidence is that being confident and strong brings the goods. All else is irrelevant. It's a fact that women feel attracted to that kind of men.

Look at your average womanly erotic fantasy. Who are those guys? Do they spend time doing the dishes? Do you get wet when they do laundry? Do those suckers offer you roses and poems? 

No they don't. They are handsome rogues. They are almost unreachable. They are aware of their own charms. They don't hesitate in using their power to sway you off your feet. They command respect and exhale virility. And you love them for it.

Alpha, beta, are just words. A code that, when understood, can make guys who don't naturally exhibit those traits to be more successful with women. Their own wives even.


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## that_girl

Nothing better than wife Porn:

Hubs cleaning while shirtless...and cute jeans. helll yea.


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## AnnieAsh

Michie, I totally agree. Every time I read that alpha/beta stuff, I roll my eyes. But I dare not post anything related to it because I'm sure men would descend and tell me "women don't know what they want" and that I subscribe to the "sisterhood groupthink" (insert eye roll.)


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## StoneAngel

costa200 said:


> Look at your average womanly erotic fantasy. Who are those guys? Do they spend time doing the dishes? Do you get wet when they do laundry? Do those suckers offer you roses and poems?
> 
> .


Come on! To use "fantasy" as some explanation of someone's current reality, is a complete contradiction. That is why it is a fantasy! How many times have you fantasized about having a threesome? Did fantasizing make it a reality or is it still a fantasy you endulge every once in a while?

Let's look at the average male erotic fantasy...now in your experience, is that the woman you marry, view wholesome enough to raise and nurture your children, meet your mother and gains your trust so you don't constantly worry she will sleep with all your friends?


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## costa200

> That is why it is a fantasy! How many times have you fantasized about having a threesome?


Not interested in that. I may be a rarity in that aspect. 



> Did fantasizing make it a reality or is it still a fantasy you endulge every once in a while?


You underestimate the power of fantasy. How often are women unsatisfied with their husband's lack of romance and excitement and get bored with them? What are the standards they are using? Where are they getting the expected level?

When women cheat, what are the traits of the affair partners they seek? Who are those guys? 

You want to know more? Drop by a pick up artist forum and read about it. Those guys know what women want and they are very successful in acting and saying the right things. 

None of those advices from those pro-womanizers revolve around the usual bullsh!it women SAY they want in a partner. So why are they successful? 

Ah yes... Because fantasy makes women drop their panties a lot more than the latest feminist crap about "how your man should be ideally".





> Let's look at the average male erotic fantasy...now in your experience, is that the woman you marry, view wholesome enough to raise and nurture your children, meet your mother and gains your trust so you don't constantly worry she will sleep with all your friends?


No, that's the kind of woman we want to have sex with. Ask a bunch of guys and they will tell you that their ideal wife has pornstar abilities in bed. We just don't want the behavior to leave the bedroom, where it belongs.

Or do you think that men want to hump a corpse just because she is all proper?

Porn is made to give men what they want to watch (it's a business after all). You want to know what your partner likes? Ask him to select his favorite porn videos. If he is honest, his kinks and tastes will all be there.


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## Caribbean Man

Well,
Like I said on another thread, whatever works for you , then do it.
I KNOW what works in my marriage...

I was never a nice guy, always a rebel.

Every other woman on TAM is a feminist., and I love to read their perspective and their rants, sometimes I agree,sometimes I disagree. But I don't make it my duty to oppose their clearly, biased views. Everyone has a right to their own agenda and bias.
So I don't " roll my eyes" or attempt to disparage their views.

I really can't understand why this Alpha stuff is so offensive to some of these women, to the point that they actually loose their sense of peace over something they know very little about.

I know very little about female hormones , birth control, pregnancy , menopause , mood swings , sex drives , and a whole lot more.
When I read the post where women vent about their stuff, I simply try to understand and learn , so I could better equipped to deal with it in my marriage.
I don't fight down anything that tries to uplift women, not even feminism, even though there are extremes positions JUST LIKE THE ALPHA STUFF.

There are women who understand and accept some of the Alpha stuff, just like there are men who debunk all of it.
Why can't people just try and let everyone live?
To each his OWN.

To me its foolish to try debunk something you don't understand whilst at the same time fully embracing something like feminism that has gone to the extreme in many cases.

A much better approach would be to first analyze what you believe about feminism, compare it to this whole Alpha stuff, and simply cut away the rhetoric and use what applies to YOUR MARRIAGE.
The same rule applies to men and the alpha concept.
Firstly you must
*ANALYZE WHAT YOU BELIEVE* , and then,
Use what WORKS FOR YOU.

So you think that all men on TAM don't understand women?
*Do you understand men any better than you think they understand you?
*So you think that all this Alpha stuff is BS?
Why not do a poll and find out what the men of TAM think about feminism?

Is there really a difference between men doing what they see fit to meet challenges in their lives, and women doing what they see fit to meet the very real challenges in their lives?

One is Alpha concept, the other is Feminism.
Half of a dozen and six of the other,

Both have their good and extremes.
Fix YOUR PROBLEMS FIRST before condemning someone else's.


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## CandieGirl

AnnieAsh said:


> Michie, I totally agree. Every time I read that alpha/beta stuff, I roll my eyes. *But I dare not post *anything related to it because I'm sure men would descend and tell me "women don't know what they want" and that I subscribe to the "sisterhood groupthink" (insert eye roll.)


Do what I've learned to do. Keep your replies to those posts light, and PM the OP. Much more effective (and less offensive to the chest-thumpers)


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## *LittleDeer*

StoneAngel said:


> No one said you had to be Betty Crocker and I agree that to simplify the relationships between men and women it comes down to roles....whether the decision of who's role is who's is totally dependent on Gender I disagree. I think the decision should be based on skill, comfort, ability and need, save for one very distinct and separate issue and that is protection.
> 
> Every woman who is involved with a man needs to know that, that man has her back, will protect her at all costs, will defend her honour, support her and put her above all others. Anything shy of it, a woman will not view her husband as Safe, there is limited trust and road blocks to real intimacy.
> Proof of whether a man has the ability to Protect his partner is not diminished by whether the man changes dispers or bakes a cake. The proof comes from how a husband talks about his wife in public, how the couple enters a room together, whether the husband leaves himself open to the attentions of other women, and what boundaries he is willing to put between himself, his wife and the outside world.
> 
> Far too many threads on TAM, have posts that reference the sexual attraction that occurs for a woman when she has a buff, fit, "appealing to other women" husband. Many men on this forum and others, have adopted a sterotypical "ideal" of what is appealing to a woman and have over simplified "what women want" on adolescent principles.
> Becoming fit and hanging with the boys may very well stroke ones ego, make you healthier, happier and may finally get you laid by your wife. Your wife may draw closer to you, out of jealousy, a challenge, and the primal instincts to be appealing to her newly physically changed spouse, but I think that motivation is short lived and is soon replaced by fear. Fear that you might be stolen and she might be replaced. Fear=Not Safe=No Intimacy.
> Most women got over chasing after the Jock in highschool, for this very reason.
> Primal instincts only go so far, there must be some sort a balance.
> 
> Please no bashing because of the ego stroking comment...both males and females need their egos stroked every once in awhile. I was not suggesting it was a bad thing.


I agree with this part completely. Trust is very important to intimacy.
If a woman feels she can't trust you she will see you as week and will be less attracted to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FalconKing

I think a lot of these post about women condemning Alpha are women feeling a man is trying to control them and manipulate them. So they have to make it their right to not stand for it and let everyone know how foolish it is. There are things like being a leader, being direct, being a man of action, being an involved father and husband..etc..that can be considered Alpha. Alpha is a term that can be used to describe somebody taking control of his life. It's behavior specific and not people IMO. Also, not everyone is self aware or honest with themselves enough to tell themselves how over the course of time they lost attraction or respect towards their spouse. But if your spouse starts marching to the beat of his own drum, takes an effort into making himself look attractive, not disrespecting you and not tolerating your disrespect of him how attractive is he? 

I know some people will read this and say, that's not *ALPHA*. That's blah blah blah....

Then you'll have missed the point of what i'm trying to say and do so purposely. If you don't like the use of the term than it's better to say that. Apha/Beta talk is just simplified ways of breaking down instances of a man being sensitive and strong. Playing one card or the other(at times both). Because there are many things that seem quite complicated in the mist of LTRs. There are just many things people say about it that does nothing more than show a man he is not weak. How can someone not be a fan of that? 

Also I agree with Caribbean Man about some of the female posters. I've seen some of the replies to threads on here. Some men come here about the unruly behavior of their wives and a lot of female posters seem to somehow explain to the man that's his fault. Also, some post here about how they'll just do whatever the hell they want and their husband will just have to deal with it. Nothing wrong with feeling empowered but I find this behavior horrid. But I don't need to make a rallying cry thread about how absurd some women act in marriage. Maybe some of these women posters have had abusive controlling husbands, or maybe their husband cheated on them and they no longer feel the need to cater to their husbands needs. It's case by case. For me to blanket all of their actions as foolish or make vocally known my displeasement when I don't know the dynamics in their marriage is just being messy IMO:yawn2:


----------



## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> .* Maybe some of these women posters have had abusive controlling husbands, or maybe their husband cheated on them and they no longer feel the need to cater to their husbands needs. It's case by case. For me to blanket all of their actions as foolish or make vocally known my displeasement when I don't know the dynamics in their marriage is just being messy IMO*:yawn2:


:iagree:

It really that simple!
Just be honest and own your stuff, that's all.
Everybody's marriage/ life is different.
Everyone speaks from that perspective. 
If your husband is arrogant, rude and controlling,then teh Alpha concept cannot be apply to your marriage.
If my wife is condescending , disrespectful and controlling, any notion of " female empowerment" will turn me off, and cannot apply to my marriage.
I believe in female empowerment as well as male empowerment.
Half a dozen of one, six of the other.


----------



## Michie

No, it really boils down to, we want the man we marry to be our partner in all THINGS. I don't need my husband to take control of any situation at any time, nor does he need me to do that either. What we do require is four hands better then two, two minds better than one, two voices...you see where I am going. 

I didn't marry a doormat, I would hope nothing ever happens and nothing I could ever do would change my husband into one, I know there is nothing he could do that could change me so dramaticly. And we are and have been through so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FalconKing

Michie said:


> No, it really boils down to, we want the man we marry to be our partner in all THINGS. I don't need my husband to take control of any situation at any time, nor does he need me to do that either. What we do require is four hands better then two, two minds better than one, two voices...you see where I am going.
> 
> I didn't marry a doormat, I would hope nothing ever happens and nothing I could ever do would change my husband into one, I know there is nothing he could do that could change me so dramaticly. And we are and have been through so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You are speaking about your marriage and what you expect. Everyone marriage is different. And you say No, but then you go on to explain how you don't need your husband to take control. Which proves my point of what I was trying to say and how some women don't like Alpha/Beta talk for that reason. But I don't think you want to hear that. I think you just want to vent and get it off your chest and that you think it's stupid. The true agenda is to control your woman. And you just cant stand for that. Thats what you want to hear right?

Surely you realize that some people have unhealthy dynamics in marriage and some people can and will take their spouse for granted? Sometimes its up to other spouse to do the heavy lifting or explain that they will NOT do all the heavy lifting. People can be ungrateful, selfish, insecure, passive aggressive, lazy, manipulative....etc... These things can happen slowly over time. In a perfect world both spouses will never let this happen our both be giving 100 percent to the marriage at all times. Then sites like this wouldn't exist. I don't think we are saying anything bad. For you to respond with No then to go on to prove me point makes think that you just don't want to be objective about this. And maybe you'll respond without acknowledging the points we are making again and then we'll go round and round for 6 to 9 pages of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Michie

People are crap dynamics because they do not view each other as true partners.

There is no scale of controls because we are partners, as I said an alpha is not needed. For any purpose nor is it needed in any marriage if partners take true ownership of their marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FalconKing

Michie I agree with that 100 percent. Unfortunately that allows a level of vulnerability that most people are not willing to give. Honestly, and no disrespect intended for anyone, when I see how horrible some marriages are there are usually signs before they got married. People settle. So then they have to find a way to make it work.

But also, some people get sidetracked. Family deaths, kids, work..all of these things are important. And someone has to be able to say despite whatever you are going through I want to love you and please do not neglect me. And hey don't you know any women that at some point of their marriage put their kids ahead of their husbands? Women who no longer feel the need to give any effort to looking good for their husbands but will do so for social events? Or some women who husbands found great jobs elsewhere but the wives refused to move because they just couldn't stand not being close to their parents(when they verbally told their husband they would go anywhere with him)? My job has places of employment all over the country that people take advantage of by frequently transferring for promotions. I know 4 mean that have lost their women because they simply refused to move with them away from their families. These things are real. Sometimes people do unfair things in relationships and you have to demand respect and loving treatment(assuming you are giving it already). Or just divorce But not everyone is expecting that they could be their reality and protect themselves with prenuptial agreements:yawn2:


----------



## in my tree

FrenchFry - you have such a way of laying things out, I personally think that you should get involved in all of those threads. 

THIS: "We get it, you are a lady killer slaying trim. Super impressed."

:lol:

I agree about the live and let live philosophy (generally) and if the whole "alpha", "beta", "gamma", "delta", whatever works for others, well, good for them. However I do see such a dismissal of some - usually women as FF pointed out - that I tend to ignore a lot of the discussions. I mean, how did people survive marriage before those two books came out??


----------



## AnnieAsh

Very well said, French Fry!


----------



## FalconKing

To be honest ladies. I think the percentage of men doing that is a small percentage. But of course, if everyone is wearing white and 5 people are wearing yellow, of course they are going to stick out. Also though it's projecting. People want to see others do what they themselves could not. Some men may post about how another man shouldn't put up with some woman's crap when they themselves can't take their own advice. Sort of like people posting about how a user should divorce their toxic spouse when they themselves reconcile and didn't want to face life single again. 

I also I want to add that times are different now and a lot of men are having identity crisis. No woman want's to be married to a woman(well..at least not here) so some men are having trouble in their role. It's 50/50 you say so some roles are interchangeable. But some women are turned off when their husband is a SAHD. Men don't want to come off as controlling or just going with the flow. And a man that can make decisions(and good ones) is always attractive. 

You guys are letting the annoyances of some posters dictate to you that the overall concept of it is stupid. Also, this site is not a accurate representation of the majority. Some men posting here do have some crazy ass wives. Just like I can admit some women for sure here have some abusive controlling husbands.



FrenchFry said:


> I forgot the worst ones: Men who are still clearly bitter about *a* woman who has done them wrong and espouse ALPHAness (aholery) towards ALL women as a way to counteract their clearly still tender emotions.
> 
> Those, those are the worst and the worst to do anything about because who wants to kick a man when he's down?


This comes from both sides though FrenchFry. And some men could say the same thing about feminist. Some posters here are very bitter towards men, do not trust them, and thinks any problem they have in a relationship is their own fault. I dare say some of them probably don't want to here anything about Alpha/Beta talk


----------



## that_girl

I just want a man who can lay the pipe right.

And take care of his responsibilities.


----------



## Zatol Ugot?

that_girl said:


> I just want a man who can lay the pipe right.
> 
> And take care of his responsibilities.


BOOYAH! :smthumbup:


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry said:


> The thing is though...how many threads are there on TAM really talking about feminism right now? How many times is it really mentioned on here except as a "counter-example" to this Alpha talk? I just forum searched the term for "feminism" and "feminist" titles only and there are literally 7 whole threads that come up, the last having a post in September. Alpha alone (not beta) brings up 30 titles with a bunch of current goodies. I searched feminism throughout the whole post and it mostly brings things like this thread (talking about alpha/beta) people who are being deceived/cheated on and threads that kinda sorta can be construed as talking about feminist issues but are really reactions towards women behaving badly/in ways men don't like.
> 
> Searching "alpha" throughout posts brings up an incredible mishmash of topics.
> 
> So, forgive me if I find that the discussion is a little overwhelming at times or lopsided but seriously...




ok point made:yawn2:


----------



## StoneAngel

that_girl said:


> Stroking egos is a great thing. It keeps the sexy feelings flowing, no? Why wouldn't I stroke my husband's ego? He stroke's mine when he comments on my butt or like yesterday, saying, "Whoa! You did all this in the house AND took care of the puppy? I'm impressed. dang." Yea. that felt good. I smiled and liked his little stroking of my ego.


 I agree, stroking egos is a great thing! It safeguards the relationship, reaffirms your position in the marriage and let's face it, it makes you or your partner feel good!


----------



## StoneAngel

costa200 said:


> Not interested in that. I may be a rarity in that aspect.
> 
> *The question was rhetorical. Interested or not you are entitled to whatever fantasy you choose. That wasn't my point but you do shine a spotlight on what my point is further down in your response*.
> 
> When women cheat, what are the traits of the affair partners they seek? Who are those guys?
> 
> *I personally can't speak about why women cheat. Never done it and no woman I know has. But I do believe that both men and women are dynamic creatures and although there maybe a male proto-type that women end up in the arms of, there are a whole host of personal qualities that a woman has that get them to that point.... lack of integrity, impulse control problems, mental disease, depression, selfishness, neediness etc etc..it is not just the 'player" persona that makes women drop their pants.
> Caribean Man expresses further on in this thread that he does not know why the Alpha stuff can be offenssive to some. I point out the above and venture to guess that if I were to make such a broad statement about men. "That all it would take is the right , ready, wet, available woman with the preferred bra size with that come hither look in her eye to make you cheat on your wife." many or most men on this forum would hammer me for such a comment and so you should! Hypothetically speaking I would in one statement make claims that there isn't a man alive that has intergrity and that man's lack of integrity is justified solely because of his biological instinct and gender. (that is offensive) As I stated earlier that should be offensive to both mles and females.
> Unfortunately many of the threads or posts regarding Alpha/Beta seem to be like I just mentioned. They reduce women to one dimensional and in search of one single male proto-type, and as a woman I can assure you we are complex creatures and no two are alike. It does make it difficult to read causes one to "roll eyes" and unfortunately limits understanding for what I think is the true premis for the Alpha/Beta idea and philosophy. The idea, feeling or sense of it all goes a muck in all the rhetoric*
> 
> Ah yes... Because fantasy makes women drop their panties a lot more than the latest feminist crap about "how your man should be ideally".
> 
> *Who is spewing Feminist Crap? It certainly isn't me. I am not a feminist*.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's the kind of woman we want to have sex with. Ask a bunch of guys and they will tell you that their ideal wife has pornstar abilities in bed. We just don't want the behavior to leave the bedroom, where it belongs..


*Agreed! Most women know that a man wants a ***** in the bedroom and a classy lady on his arm in public and there is nothing wrong with that! (if women don't know this they need to make themselves aware). Thanks for your honesty.

I don't underestimate the prower of fantasy. I think you make fantasy a hysterical propostion for women. One that is limited and all encompassing at the same time. If a woman fantasizes about a certain type of male sexually. You say it means she must need/crave that type of man in all aspects of her life all the time. I say that is false.
Why is the male gender completely capable of having his fantasy in the bedroom and a completely different reality (behaviour as you put it) in public, all wrapped up the same mate, but it is inconcievable that a woman could be looking for and achieve the the same thing in her mate?
I think that is a legit question. A question both sexes could learn from*..[/QUOTE]

Sorry. I am still trying to figure out how to post effectively. I bolded my responses only to distinguish tem from yours. I am not shouting at you. I don't want to offend. I think this is rather interesting


----------



## FalconKing

StoneAngel said:


> Carribean Man expresses further on in this thread that he does not know why the Alpha stuff can be offenssive to some. I point out the above and venture to guess that if I were to make such a broad statement about men. "That all it would take is the right , ready, wet, available woman with the preferred bra size, to make you cheat on your wife." many or most men on this forum would hammer me for such a comment and so you should.
> Unfortunately many of the threads or post regarding Alpha/Beta seem to be like I just mentioned. They reduce women to one dimensional and in search of one single male proto-type, and as a woman I can assure you we are complex creatures and no two are alike.


Yeah but a lot of those men aren't talking about cheating on their wives. They are talking about keeping your wife attracted to you. Also, think about most of the threads! They are usually about wife not giving the husband any affection, putting no effort into the relationship with him, expecting things from him when she does little for him. What do you expect guys to say? Just keep giving her what she wants No, they are going to tell him to be a man and don't like your wife walk all over you. You see a lot of these threads because ALOT of guys come here with this problem!

But I see what you are saying. Like I said though, and as Mitchie mentioned, I think the problem is just the dynamics of specific relationships. Some guys marry women who are poor communicators. So then they have press buttons and experiment to get her to respond to them. And it works. Some people are just not self aware or comfortable enough with themselves to communicate effectively with their spouse or purposefully pursue a level of intimacy without their spouse leading them. How often do we see here about a spouse complaining that their partner is not pulling their weight?


----------



## StoneAngel

FalconKing said:


> Yeah but a lot of those men aren't talking about cheating on their wives. They are talking about keeping your wife attracted to you. Also, think about most of the threads! They are usually about wife not giving the husband any affection, putting no effort into the relationship with him, expecting things from him when she does little for him. What do you expect guys to say? Just keep giving her what she wants No, they are going to tell him to be a man and don't like your wife walk all over you. You see a lot of these threads because ALOT of guys come here with this problem!
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you. I shake my head at women like this, and if Alphaness is a form of communication among men to encourage and empower men in these circumstances...run with it. Maybe the premis needs to be simple to get these men "unstuck" I don't know, but if there was some way to express the depth of masculinity without making it sound like a soap box moment understanding and admiration would flow rivers.
Click to expand...


----------



## Entropy3000

Michie said:


> Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?
> 
> Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
> I did not want to marry another Father. I thought marriage was a partnership.
> 
> Why do men automatically jump to the assumption; "my wife seems to have lost respect for me, I better take the reins!"
> Instead of investigating why to respect or admiration is gone.
> Il
> Now to clarify, most us will agree that indecisiveness is a trait we all dislike, however does my respect diminish because my husband can't decide on what dinner he would prefer? No
> 
> Yeah my thoughts are jumbled. If a woman fell in love with a man, and that man through years of comfort has a change of trait or personality it's a different matter all together, but hell they fell in love for a reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it happens for many when the wife starts acting disrespectful. When she treats him like less of a man. When she shows her affintiy towards men that are more openly assertive and aggressive. When she gets bored and starts looking for excitement from other men. Looking for attention elsewhaere. Excitement comes from dopamine and Alpha is associated with dopamine.

Men do change during marriage. That is very natural. Also realize that that intial in love feeling naturally slows down and even stops after soem numbe rof years. So indeed for a husband to regain that in love from his wife he needs to recreate what she saw in him. He was not a marriaed man when they dated. He was not taken. He was available and looking. He was more sexually Alpha in all liklihood.

So yeah this is why.

Women get bored. Mens testosterone levels dimish over time. Men get bored. Either or both start not being concerned with looking good for the other. Some see husbands as boring because they already have them. They are not competing with other women to get his attentions.

But being Alpha is NOT just about having more and more passionate sex. It is about a man getting back to being a man. Providing for the family can be very Beta work. That is just fine. However, if a man is constantly in this mode he loses his edge. 

I think we need to realize that the men who have lost their balance and are overly Alpha will not be posting hear in large number. Men who have lost their edge and who are very Beta will be. So the sample is skewed.

But indeed it is typically about a man getting back his self respect. Self respect is very Alpha. So THIS is the main reason we see Alpha so much. because we encourage men to get back their self respect. Sometimes a man respecting himself can be very attractive to women in general. That said though it prepares the hsuband to move on if his wife is just not happy with him for whatever reason.


----------



## FalconKing

Someone mentioned earlier Roissy/PUAs use of Alpha. To me that is not Alpha. I do agree with some aspects of them when engaging women. But the use of Alpha is subjective. Invading a woman's personal space or relentlessly hitting on her until she breaks is not Alpha to me, that's being annoying. So is shaming a woman to show her how dominant you are. And the stuff they subscribe to does not work I feel with women of integrity(but some guys have tight game). I'm not interested in any woman who falls for the dumbass crap they do. Tucker Max, a guy who does the Alpha thing even admitted that most of the women he had been with had deep psychological issues.


----------



## that_girl

Sometimes, I'm the leader. Sometimes, he's the leader...it just depends on our expertise on the subject at hand. But we're not bossy or stupid.  We make our own decisions with our family's best interest at heart. We talk about big issues and we're pretty relaxed about what happens. It's called a relationship.

Also, I am a feminist. I'm not a man-hater or a man-basher. I still like to be treated like a lady and I act like a lady. But I believe that women are just as valuable as men and should be given equal treatment in careers and life. Men and women are different, but we are equal in value and I want society to reflect that. That's what kind of feminist I am...not the butchy crazy woman getting irritated about a man opening a door for her. 

I love when my husband comes to me with an issue that he can't figure out. We talk about it and he values my opinion and suggestions. He knows what I am good at figuring out (like people and social situations). I go to him when I need help with mechanical things, or gadgety things. I try to listen to him explain, but it's all Greek to me-- just fix it! haha. 

When we were having money issues because of the way we split the bills, I made a full change to our budget and talked to him about it and he approved because it kicked ass. Was that alpha? I dunno. I just fixed our problem.

I think we get too stuck on labels. No one is ONE THING all of the time. Sometimes we're weak, sometimes we're strong. Sometimes we're in control, sometimes we're scared and lost. That's the beauty of being human. 

Sure, some people have relationship issues that they aren't happy with. Some dynamics are a bit 'off'...so it's up to that couple to decide what to do...and in some cases, only one person can decide to change. That's cool. But again, no one is one thing all of the time. Be YOU, but learn to say no.

Best thing I even did for myself was learn to say no to people. And mean it. But I'm not a big ol' betch about it.

Know yourself.


----------



## Caribbean Man

FrenchFry said:


> *cracks fingers*
> 
> I (ususally) stay well away from the alpha/beta discussion. I'm a huge fan of "if it works, it works" and don't try to disparage a person from looking at multiple solutions to make their marriage work.
> 
> I also am married to one of the many many stereotypes of an Alpha man: ex-fighter, aggressive personality, kinda man-*****y etc so the advice to men who need to "up" this have little to do with my relationship. I've never experienced having a husband whom I can walk all over. One more reason I don't post there, I have little advice to give.
> 
> However, when I've been tempted to write off TAM as a bunch of hosers, it's not because of thoughtful posts where a man says "hey, you are letting your wife walk all over you, stop that" (no matter how it's termed) it's these categories of posts that turn me off:
> 
> *Posts which have the (*All*) [parenthenses used because posters have gotten smart about not saying all] women respond to this because of *blahALPHAblah*
> 
> This also comes in the flavor of Women are Stupid and Crazy, don't listen to them, you just need to *blahALPHAblah*
> 
> This is so common that the people who encounter resistance to this have come up with an acronym to blatantly blow off women who dare to say "hey, this wouldn't work for me" (NAWALT)
> 
> *Posts which claim to be couched in science. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is all I have to say about that.
> 
> 
> *Posts that have the _tone_ of ALPHA UP!!!!!ONE because MAD ***** BRAH.
> 
> We get it, you are a lady killer slaying trim. Super impressed.
> 
> Take pretty much all of that crap out and there is a solid foundation for "defining manhood" or "being an alpha" but since almost every single alpha post is littered with this crap, sometimes it can be a little hard to filter out.


Now this is where my original argument about 
"half a dozen of one and six of the other " comes in.

You call yourself a feminist and proceed to say that the entire Alpha thing is crap.
No problem.
You complain that the alpha stuff basically lumps all women into some sort of undesirable generalization.
No problem
But when you begin to prescribe YOUR solution [?] for ANY man who needs to improve himself.......
BIG PROBLEM!
That's not how it works.
Maybe in YOUR case that's how it worked.
But I think that the last thing any self respecting man needs is a self confessed feminist telling him how to be a man.
Doesn't work that way in the real world.
There's a term for that in the CWI section.
I think its called " Cake eating."
Come again.


----------



## Entropy3000

I have a female relative whose husband beats her and is a low life and cannot keep a job. When women meet him I ALWAYS hear how charming he is. Women are drawn to him. He gets away with almost anything and folks cannot do enough for him, yet he never gives back in anyway other than being charming. He spends a good amount of time in and out of jail. Now the women I am talking about are not in bars. They are teachers and wives and so on. I hear again and again how he just needs a chance from the women. I can tell you that people have boght him vehicles and set him up in homes and and just in general have tried to get him on his feet. He gives nothing back to society other than pain. But women just care about him. Go figure. I guess he looks like he has good genes and has very low Beta traits.

Oh and yeah he is no longer in my state. He is avoiding me now.


----------



## that_girl

See, Entropy, to me, that's not "alpha". That's 'douche'.


----------



## Entropy3000

SpinDaddy said:


> Agree, this whole Alpha/Beta thing originated with monkeys, lions and tigers. We (**** sapiens) have opposable thumbs and bigger brains. I’m more concerned about “maning-up” and doing the right thing as a father, husband and leader of my family and community.


Awesome. That is very Alpha. Good for you.

Words in society are used in context. While a word can be used to characterize prinate behavior there is nothing wrong with using such terminolgy as it may apply to humans. Because much of it does and for the very same reasons. 

So calling it maning-up is just fine. But we are still talking about the same thing. 

Let's call manning-up to achieving a good balance of Alpha and Beta traits.

Sometimes manning-up is about being more assertive and other times it is being more involved with his kids and so on. To me it is doing the right thing.


----------



## FalconKing

Entropy3000 said:


> He gives nothing back to society other than pain. But women just care about him. Go figure. I guess he looks like he has good genes and has very low Beta traits.
> 
> Oh and yeah he is no longer in my state. He is avoiding me now.


Or maybe it's the whole, "I'll be the one to change him" mindset.


----------



## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Or maybe it's the whole, "I'll be the one to change him" mindset.


That's what I was thinking. It's the whole, "He's different with ME cause I'm SPECIAL" bullcrap.


----------



## Entropy3000

Michie said:


> Still think its BS men of the forum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thankfully these concepts are really for men. Men are the audience, not women. They just need to make sense to the man who needs them.

I think it would be helpful for women to understand these things but I do not think it is required.


----------



## Entropy3000

AnnieAsh said:


> Michie, I totally agree. Every time I read that alpha/beta stuff, I roll my eyes. But I dare not post anything related to it because I'm sure men would descend and tell me "women don't know what they want" and that I subscribe to the "sisterhood groupthink" (insert eye roll.)


Or don't worry your pretty little head about it.

------


Just kidding ... LOL


----------



## FalconKing

:lol::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## StoneAngel

that_girl said:


> Sometimes, I'm the leader. Sometimes, he's the leader...it just depends on our expertise on the subject at hand. But we're not bossy or stupid.  We make our own decisions with our family's best interest at heart. We talk about big issues and we're pretty relaxed about what happens. It's called a relationship.
> 
> Also, I am a feminist. I'm not a man-hater or a man-basher. I still like to be treated like a lady and I act like a lady. But I believe that women are just as valuable as men and should be given equal treatment in careers and life. Men and women are different, but we are equal in value and I want society to reflect that. That's what kind of feminist I am...not the butchy crazy woman getting irritated about a man opening a door for her.
> 
> I love when my husband comes to me with an issue that he can't figure out. We talk about it and he values my opinion and suggestions. He knows what I am good at figuring out (like people and social situations). I go to him when I need help with mechanical things, or gadgety things. I try to listen to him explain, but it's all Greek to me-- just fix it! haha.
> 
> When we were having money issues because of the way we split the bills, I made a full change to our budget and talked to him about it and he approved because it kicked ass. Was that alpha? I dunno. I just fixed our problem.
> 
> I think we get too stuck on labels. No one is ONE THING all of the time. Sometimes we're weak, sometimes we're strong. Sometimes we're in control, sometimes we're scared and lost. That's the beauty of being human.
> 
> Sure, some people have relationship issues that they aren't happy with. Some dynamics are a bit 'off'...so it's up to that couple to decide what to do...and in some cases, only one person can decide to change. That's cool. But again, no one is one thing all of the time. Be YOU, but learn to say no.
> 
> Best thing I even did for myself was learn to say no to people. And mean it. But I'm not a big ol' betch about it.
> 
> Know yourself.


I love this. Well said. I identify with it. The unfortunate part is your definition of feminism is not accepted in feminist circles (hence the reason why I didn't define myself as one). 
Feminism should be tweeked to include such a broader scope.


----------



## Entropy3000

*LittleDeer* said:


> I agree with this part completely. Trust is very important to intimacy.
> If a woman feels she can't trust you she will see you as week and will be less attracted to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why EAs are so pervasive. Some say women need to connect to have sex. Men have sex to connect.

Sooooo. The EA is so damaging because the bonding is building up that Oxytocin. It even looks innocent to some. However once the intimacy is there it can turn romantic and then sexual. This becomes about Dopamine. There is a mix here. Just like and Alpha / Beta mix. So Alpha / Beta goes a long way to mirror brain chemicals. Our brains control that opposable thumb.


----------



## that_girl

My whole adult life, I was worried I'd end up with a "yes man". My stepfather was a "yes man"...and I watched my mom and his relationship deteriorate over 10 years. He'd say no, she'd henpeck and he'd give in....to keep the peace, I'm sure, but with my mom, you have to basically knock her in the head with a 2x4 (as I have had to do, figuratively of course , many times. She has a bad sense of empathy and boundaries)....slowly she lost respect.

The men I dated, for whatever reason, were 'yes men'. Omg. It was such a turn off for a man to just follow whatever I did or wanted. I'd ask opinions and they'd just smile and say whatever I wanted to hear. Then I had the douchy guy who THOUGHT he was a man, and I was so silly and had been around such 'yes men' that i thought he was a man too. Alas, he was just a pseudo-man. He didn't know what a man was, so he just barked really loud and treated me like crap. Sure, he was strong on the outside, but inside, he was insecure and mean. Not a "man", imo, just a child in a man's body.

Then I met my H. He was fun and silly and nice. But he knew what he wanted and who he was. He had ideas and made plans and did things without me. He wasn't some douche or some loud barker. He was quiet and mellow. Rarely got agitated or irritated. He had hobbies and told me no.  And it was sexy.

So I think lots of people are just confused sometimes. I dunno. I just know that many men are 'yes men' and that wasn't the type of person I wanted to spend my life with. 

I have no idea if I'm making sense. But...I tried.


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> I think a lot of these post about women condemning Alpha are women feeling a man is trying to control them and manipulate them. So they have to make it their right to not stand for it and let everyone know how foolish it is. There are things like being a leader, being direct, being a man of action, being an involved father and husband..etc..that can be considered Alpha. Alpha is a term that can be used to describe somebody taking control of his life. It's behavior specific and not people IMO. Also, not everyone is self aware or honest with themselves enough to tell themselves how over the course of time they lost attraction or respect towards their spouse. But if your spouse starts marching to the beat of his own drum, takes an effort into making himself look attractive, not disrespecting you and not tolerating your disrespect of him how attractive is he?
> 
> I know some people will read this and say, that's not *ALPHA*. That's blah blah blah....
> 
> Then you'll have missed the point of what i'm trying to say and do so purposely. If you don't like the use of the term than it's better to say that. Apha/Beta talk is just simplified ways of breaking down instances of a man being sensitive and strong. Playing one card or the other(at times both). Because there are many things that seem quite complicated in the mist of LTRs. There are just many things people say about it that does nothing more than show a man he is not weak. How can someone not be a fan of that?
> 
> Also I agree with Caribbean Man about some of the female posters. I've seen some of the replies to threads on here. Some men come here about the unruly behavior of their wives and a lot of female posters seem to somehow explain to the man that's his fault. Also, some post here about how they'll just do whatever the hell they want and their husband will just have to deal with it. Nothing wrong with feeling empowered but I find this behavior horrid. But I don't need to make a rallying cry thread about how absurd some women act in marriage. Maybe some of these women posters have had abusive controlling husbands, or maybe their husband cheated on them and they no longer feel the need to cater to their husbands needs. It's case by case. For me to blanket all of their actions as foolish or make vocally known my displeasement when I don't know the dynamics in their marriage is just being messy IMO:yawn2:


For many the whole concept is just flat against their agenda. So they need to attack it.

FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.


----------



## Entropy3000

Michie said:


> No, it really boils down to, we want the man we marry to be our partner in all THINGS. I don't need my husband to take control of any situation at any time, nor does he need me to do that either. What we do require is four hands better then two, two minds better than one, two voices...you see where I am going.
> 
> I didn't marry a doormat, I would hope nothing ever happens and nothing I could ever do would change my husband into one, I know there is nothing he could do that could change me so dramaticly. And we are and have been through so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cool for you. I do need my wife to take control at times and I do take control as appropriate. We are partners. She IS my wingman / wingwoman.

But my wife and I are not the same. So we bring different things to the table. We are better together than alone. While we believe in POJA, Policy Of Joint Agreement, there are times when she is at the helm and time when I am. There are times I unleash the Kracken. The Alpha.

BTW I have read some of your other threads. All I can say is that drugs mess up a man.


----------



## that_girl

I will say this.....MUCH OF THE TIME (don't want to generalize), the way a woman is in a relationship stems directly from her relationship (or lack of one) with her father. Make no mistake in that.

Dads totally matter. Be a good one.


----------



## FalconKing

This may sound bad but I read a book that talked about how you should not ask a woman want to do when you are pursuing women. They'll speak from their perspective. Which is not wrong, but usually it just goes like, "just hangout with her and be nice to her and she'll see you are a nice guy and may like you too" This is what women do. Because usually the man is pursuing them. So if you do this and never actually let it be known you want more than a friendship, you will most likely only stay a friend. Then when a man who is more direct and unafraid of possible rejection talks with her. She may be willing to date him and you'll have no idea what you did wrong. 

I say that to say sometimes in relationships we try to expect the same things from our perspectives and experiences but as a man and woman it's sometimes counterproductive for each other. If some women don't really like the notion of Alpha talk and wanted a man to do things the way you do them, it may not work out the way you hoped.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> My whole adult life, I was worried I'd end up with a "yes man". My stepfather was a "yes man"...and I watched my mom and his relationship deteriorate over 10 years. He'd say no, she'd henpeck and he'd give in....to keep the peace, I'm sure, but with my mom, you have to basically knock her in the head with a 2x4 (as I have had to do, figuratively of course , many times. She has a bad sense of empathy and boundaries)....slowly she lost respect.
> 
> The men I dated, for whatever reason, were 'yes men'. Omg. It was such a turn off for a man to just follow whatever I did or wanted. I'd ask opinions and they'd just smile and say whatever I wanted to hear. Then I had the douchy guy who THOUGHT he was a man, and I was so silly and had been around such 'yes men' that i thought he was a man too. Alas, he was just a pseudo-man. He didn't know what a man was, so he just barked really loud and treated me like crap. Sure, he was strong on the outside, but inside, he was insecure and mean. Not a "man", imo, just a child in a man's body.
> 
> Then I met my H. He was fun and silly and nice. But he knew what he wanted and who he was. He had ideas and made plans and did things without me. He wasn't some douche or some loud barker. He was quiet and mellow. Rarely got agitated or irritated. He had hobbies and told me no.  And it was sexy.
> 
> So I think lots of people are just confused sometimes. I dunno. I just know that many men are 'yes men' and that wasn't the type of person I wanted to spend my life with.
> 
> I have no idea if I'm making sense. But...I tried.


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> Someone mentioned earlier Roissy/PUAs use of Alpha. To me that is not Alpha. I do agree with some aspects of them when engaging women. But the use of Alpha is subjective. Invading a woman's personal space or relentlessly hitting on her until she breaks is not Alpha to me, that's being annoying. So is shaming a woman to show her how dominant you are. And the stuff they subscribe to does not work I feel with women of integrity(but some guys have tight game). I'm not interested in any woman who falls for the dumbass crap they do. Tucker Max, a guy who does the Alpha thing even admitted that most of the women he had been with had deep psychological issues.


Wow. We agree again. That said, some predator men do use PUA techniques in a more sophisticated way to manipulate women. Club actions like they refer to are just one example. They are an absurd lightning round. However, there is a lesson about seduction there however cheesy the example may be. It is about the dance. Some women just like the attention. They like the dance.

I do not view PUAs as being Alpha.

But since you brought it up, we see Kino escalations outside of the club all of the time. They surely exist in most EAs.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> My whole adult life, I was worried I'd end up with a "yes man". My stepfather was a "yes man"...and I watched my mom and his relationship deteriorate over 10 years. He'd say no, she'd henpeck and he'd give in....to keep the peace, I'm sure, but with my mom, you have to basically knock her in the head with a 2x4 (as I have had to do, figuratively of course , many times. She has a bad sense of empathy and boundaries)....slowly she lost respect.
> 
> The men I dated, for whatever reason, were 'yes men'. Omg. It was such a turn off for a man to just follow whatever I did or wanted. I'd ask opinions and they'd just smile and say whatever I wanted to hear. Then I had the douchy guy who THOUGHT he was a man, and I was so silly and had been around such 'yes men' that i thought he was a man too. Alas, he was just a pseudo-man. He didn't know what a man was, so he just barked really loud and treated me like crap. Sure, he was strong on the outside, but inside, he was insecure and mean. Not a "man", imo, just a child in a man's body.
> 
> Then I met my H. He was fun and silly and nice. But he knew what he wanted and who he was. He had ideas and made plans and did things without me. He wasn't some douche or some loud barker. He was quiet and mellow. Rarely got agitated or irritated. He had hobbies and told me no.  And it was sexy.
> 
> So I think lots of people are just confused sometimes. I dunno. I just know that many men are 'yes men' and that wasn't the type of person I wanted to spend my life with.
> 
> I have no idea if I'm making sense. But...I tried.


You know I lurked here for a while before I joined. I remember reading your story and posts and really routing for you and your husband thinking "wow this lady is pretty cool" So finally I join and ............we disagree on almost everything:yawn2:

This post is so honest and right. You've pretty much summed it all up. From attraction, to what's attractive, how we fool ourselves, and how our parental figures influence that.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> I will say this.....MUCH OF THE TIME (don't want to generalize), the way a woman is in a relationship stems directly from her relationship (or lack of one) with her father. Make no mistake in that.
> 
> Dads totally matter. Be a good one.


Chris Rock


----------



## FalconKing

Some women have their fathers in their life and still make bad decisions relationship wise. BUT 9 times out of 10 when I've met women with deep issues regarding intimacy and relationships they were usually lacking positive male influences in their life.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> See, Entropy, to me, that's not "alpha". That's 'douche'.


Ok so maybe we need to define a different scale with douche being at one end. LOL.


----------



## StoneAngel

FalconKing said:


> I say that to say sometimes in relationships we try to expect the same things from our perspectives and experiences but as a man and woman it's sometimes counterproductive for each other. If some women don't really like the notion of Alpha talk and wanted a man to do things the way you do them, it may not work out the way you hoped.


I don't know if we are saying the same thing or not...but I read an article based on a study that makes your point a little more clear (I think).
The study was about dating. Instead of the woman offering her suggestions of "what to do" based on her perspective and interest, she offered suggestions based on anticipating her suitor's wants. 
Essentially the study showed that during the courtship period the female party routinely lied to her suitor. Not maliciously, but as a way to secure his interests long term. Her suggestions and willingness to participate in activities and conversations were solely driven by a covert plan to try get her suitor to give her the results she desired, (a manogamous relationship). In order to do this she felt she had to successfully anticipate his wants. The suggestion is that if the female were to be direct and ask what the suitor wanted it would reveal that the woman was inept and a failure at securing her suitor's affection.

The same is found true for a male if he is seriously considering the woman as a partner.

This process after each party feels secure in the relationship, stops. That is usually when each partner says "really you don't like X, but I thought you said you liked X?"

In regard to Alpha/Beta maybe some men still function trying to anticipate what their wive's wants and needs are, and trying to captilize on non-facts to achieve and obtain what they really desire. ie) the man antcipates that doing the dishes fills his wife's need and believes that if he complies he will no doubt be offered sex.


Side Bar:

I can only speak for myself but I think I am not alone when I say that completing household tasks does not fill a need in me as a woman or a sexual being. Household tasks are not mine to own. If my husband does errands and cleaning he deserves thanks and appreciation, much the same as if I did them. It is just stuff that needs to get done. 
It may very well free up some of my time and make me less dog tired so I am not falling asleep when my head hits the pillow, but it does nothing to get my juices flowing, does not make me feel like a sexual being, does not make my mind race in anticipation of what positions he can "take" me in later.



Don't stop doing the dishes. That stuff still needs to get done, but definately stop anticipating that a women's response will be sexual in nature if you continue washing the dishes.
So do you have to be Alpha or just stop anticipating the wrong outcome:scratchhead:?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Somehow I can't understand the logic which dictates that a married man is supposed to be doing certain things like doing the dishes in order for his wife to * give * him sex.

Maybe its because I'm from another culture, but I've always done stuff for my wife and she has always had my back.
We HAVE SEX.
Because we married and love each other.
There are no other considerations attached.

I give her nice stuff, she goes on holidays etc. But even before I was able to afford these thing our sex life was good.

Sex is not attached to these things in our relationship.:scratchhead:


----------



## Chumpless

Caribbean Man said:


> Somehow I can't understand the logic which dictates that a married man is supposed to be doing certain things like doing the dishes in order for his wife to * give * him sex.


Because there is no logic to it.
"Hi honey, I was thinking of an exciting evening tonight. I was thinking of coming over and do your dishes for you".

She may appreciate it, but it will never get you laid.

On the other hand, think of the hot stud who comes over in jeans and a muscle shirt to fix a leaky tap.

The same things that offered attraction while dating are the same things that work in a marriage.

Some women are just kidding themselves I guess.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Chumpless said:


> Because there is no logic to it.
> "Hi honey, I was thinking of an exciting evening tonight. I was thinking of coming over and do your dishes for you".
> 
> She may appreciate it, but it will never get you laid.
> 
> On the other hand, think of the hot stud who comes over in jeans and a muscle shirt to fix a leaky tap.
> 
> *The same things that offered attraction while dating are the
> same things that work in a marriage.*
> 
> Some women are just kidding themselves I guess.


Which is my point.
My wife has NEVER asked me to change ANYTHING about me in the 17 years we have been married.
I was always a rebel and was not afraid of anybody or anything.
That's what she fell in love with. 
That is what I am, just me. I always liked to cook, and I STILL do cook. 
If I don't do the dishes , she does it, sometimes we have fun doing the dishes together,and we still have sex!

Well to each his own I guess.


----------



## StoneAngel

Caribbean Man said:


> Somehow I can't understand the logic which dictates that a married man is supposed to be doing certain things like doing the dishes in order for his wife to * give * him sex.
> 
> Maybe its because I'm from another culture, but I've always done stuff for my wife and she has always had my back.
> We HAVE SEX.
> Because we married and love each other.
> There are no other considerations attached.
> 
> I give her nice stuff, she goes on holidays etc. But even before I was able to afford these thing our sex life was good.
> 
> Sex is not attached to these things in our relationship.:scratchhead:


My sex life isn't held captive to life's errands and responsibilities either, but maybe there is a bit of a cultural thing going on. In North America we certainly have been lying to our men.

Flip through any magazine or quick reference guide to fix a stalled marital sex-life and the first solution/statement of advice for the husband is to do household chores.

Women don't desire you for these acts, but conversely women don't disrespect you for doing them either. The sexual outcome is unrelated to whether you do them or not.


----------



## Caribbean Man

FrenchFry said:


> CarribeanMan, this is the second time you have completely misread a post of mine describing why I do not enjoy the alpha/beta discussions on TAM. Please read again carefully.
> 
> A) I do not discount "manning up" as a philosophy that works in some relationships. I thought I made that clear in the beginning of my post.
> 
> B) I never called the "Alpha thing crap," I laid out _ specific things _ thay occur in threads that actually hinder me and apparently others from taking them totally serious. Let me reiterate: * The majority of the "good stuff" that comes out of those threads, no matter how you choose to label it I have no problem with. *
> 
> C) I don't want to tell a man how to be a man. I want some men to stop lumping all women together as a group that if you use THIS technique ALL women will submit to the almighty power of penis. Because women are irrational creatures you see and just need ALPHA to fall back in their natural state. Go ahead and give your insights on manhood that worked for you. Don't blow off women who say "Hey, my partner tried x as well and it was a total failure."
> 
> EI hope you actually read this one, but if you don't please take the "you're a feminist!" rant elsewhere.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


French Fry,
We could go on the entire evening about what you wrote and what you meant.

Anyone with a modicum of common sense would see that your original post was full of sarcasm .

This was your last paragraph, the culmination of your entire post, which started with * cracking fingers * , then a caricature of Batman slapping robin :

".....Take pretty much all of that crap out and there is a solid foundation for "defining manhood" or "being an alpha" *but since almost every single alpha post is littered with this crap, sometimes it can be a little hard to filter out......"*

Maybe I'm not familiar with your syntax, or I'm blind to the beauty and poetry in your original post, but nothing in it strikes me as even covertly pro anything positive about the discussion on manhood.
In other words, in your enlightened opinion, every post on TAM regarding manhood is filled with so much crap, that its " *a little hard to filter out." *
In essence, I thought your post was very condescending , to those male posters, including the moderators who try their best almost daily, to help those men, badly in need of help.

However,
I digress.
My humblest apologies for misreading your post. Perhaps its real meaning was .
" ...lost in translation..."

[ Its a male/female thing. Ladies speak " Proper English, men speak.........*whatever*]


----------



## FalconKing

StoneAngel said:


> I don't know if we are saying the same thing or not...but I read an article based on a study that makes your point a little more clear (I think).
> The study was about dating. Instead of the woman offering her suggestions of "what to do" based on her perspective and interest, she offered suggestions based on anticipating her suitor's wants.
> Essentially the study showed that during the courtship period the female party routinely lied to her suitor. Not maliciously, but as a way to secure his interests long term. Her suggestions and willingness to participate in activities and conversations were solely driven by a covert plan to try get her suitor to give her the results she desired, (a manogamous relationship). In order to do this she felt she had to successfully anticipate his wants. The suggestion is that if the female were to be direct and ask what the suitor wanted it would reveal that the woman was inept and a failure at securing her suitor's affection.
> 
> The same is found true for a male if he is seriously considering the woman as a partner.
> 
> This process after each party feels secure in the relationship, stops. That is usually when each partner says "really you don't like X, but I thought you said you liked X?"


Actually that's not what I meant but still you make a very interesting point and I have also read about that. Even the author of His Needs Her Needs mention this in his book. His explanation was that a lot of women just enjoy spending time with their men and will join him in his hobbies to spend time with him. But once they are married and share a life together then they no longer feel the need to do such a thing. Because you now have a life together and more time together. He explained it like it's normal. But it pisses me off I can understand the way of thinking but now it makes sense why thousands of men marry their soul mate who loves playing video games and watching sports and then suddenly after the wedding day they don't like those things anymore. With this kind of thinking a lot of women do the bait and switch and don't even realize it.


----------



## Chumpless

Geezus! My wife treats her dad like sh!t. The same way she had been getting away with treating me actually.


----------



## Starstarfish

Just curious to ask if women -never- want Beta behavior, categorized in one post as giving flowers or writing poetry - how are FTD and Hallmark still in business?


----------



## FalconKing

Because most guys(if they are trying to be romantic) think that's enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chumpless

Starstarfish said:


> Just curious to ask if women -never- want Beta behavior, categorized in one post as giving flowers or writing poetry - how are FTD and Hallmark still in business?


Of course they want "beta" behavior. It fulfills a totally different set of needs.

Providing a certain level of comfort, trust, and security will provide the environment for her to lap up the so called "alpha" in you. Step#1, she needs to feel safe...Step#2 bring on the excitement and get her panties wet! It's that simple...well, in theory anyway...lol

I hate to throw Athol's name out there like he's some sort of God, but it's your classic isolation -> escalation play. Most marriages need both. Nuf said!


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think this Alpha Beta thing is offensive to some women because its a hot topic on TAM geared towards men.
But , there's no need to hate on something you disagree with or don't understand.
I think that the " generalization " argument is also a big cop out.
Men generalize about men all the time, just look at the first sentence in the first reply to the OP's post,and you get my point.

There is an imbalance of views on TAM regarding the topic,and it IS biased towards men. If some women finds that offensive, then 

WHY NOT START SOME THREADS DEALING WITH IT FROM A FEMALE PERSPECTIVE?

We have already established that the term alpha is GENDER NEUTRAL.
Start some threads dealing with how females could get their husband to respect them, about female empowerment, about female self actualization, etc. Stop the asinine griping and and hating, for God's sake ,

START SOMETHING!

After all, there are no rules on TAM that prevents you all from doing just that.


----------



## that_girl

Who is griping and hating? I'm not. I'm all for anything that helps someone self-improve.

Some people are debating because of difference in opinion. Some people, like myself, see things differently, but that's all based on self experience and realization. I know that these extremes help many men see what's going on in their lives. That's great. No one should live a life where they feel like they are being used. Deejo's post helped a lot!  What's your problem with that?

You just said "wise men argue, fools decide". Let people argue if they want.


----------



## Caribbean Man

French ,
There are over * 625 post on the
" becoming Alpha thread ", and you pulled out ONLY TWO views that you consider to be " crap " and actually think that justifies this statement you made;

*"... but since almost every single alpha post is littered with this crap, sometimes it can be a little hard to filter out......"*

Really?
You're the * numbers gal *. 
That's lesser than ONE PERCENT of that thread.

Even the moderators who were on that thread posted more than TWO posts.

But again, I digress.
Here's my point:
You said;
_"...The current threads on SAHDs are a really interesting look at how one defines manhood while taking on a traditionally female role. As a SAHM, I really appreciate a look at the other side..."_

Thing is , lots of guys will like to have a view on the other side, but guess what's the problem?
Nobody's presenting a polemic , everything is usually 
" i_n response to the men who_..." instead of an original thought.

That thread you mentioned is one I started for the EXPRESSED purpose of exposing BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN. I stated this in my OP.
In fact in one of my responses to one poster who complained of being terribly treated and under appreciated that the way he felt was similar to how many SAHM's felt because of bad treatment by their husbands.

I have deep respect for women who can stand up for a cause. 
I have absolutely no respect for charlatans.
Having read lots of your posts, and especially liking the way you structured your arguments on that post you did on the
" _porn sex vs real sex thread_ ", I put you squarely in the first category.

Everyone has the right to their own biases, but wise people usually try to support theirs in FACTS.

Hence my angst.


----------



## Caribbean Man

_"..Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.."_

William .B.Yeats." The Second Comming."


----------



## FalconKing

Caribbean Man said:


> _"..Turning and turning in the widening gyre
> The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
> Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
> Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.."_
> 
> William .B.Yeats." The Second Comming."


Is it cool if I think this is about me?


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry your post disappoints me. Not that it's wrong! But because you are obviously speaking from your experiences and i'm disappointed you've had that kind of experience. I looked at that thread. It had great promise and it seemed really interesting. Unfortunately, certain topics will offend people or just make them defensive, it doesn't matter how you say them. I think of my threads and I can relate. 

I don't know if can say it's male driven though, but you are speaking from you experience and perspective. From mine, most people disagree with my views or think i'm kinda pompous. Sooo...I don't know how i'm supposed to feel about that...:yawn2:. 
Anyways, I think MMSL IS the most popular book recommendation. But I think it's because if you look at the sexless marriage threads, it's usually 85 percent men and 15 percent women. I think that's where it starts. And then it bleeds over to other aspects in other threads. Because guys like to point out how some of the things men are putting up with their wives wouldn't happen if their wives tolerated them. Which makes sense to me. A lot of women have problems with lazy ass husbands or insensitive husbands. Ladies here don't really have a go to game plan/book(except the 180 but men use it too) that specifically helps women. I mean there are hundreds of course but nothing that is in constant recommendation here like MMSL. I do visit a few other sites. And some are more female driven than here. One I REALLY like but the lady is not a feminist. And she is adamantly against the random sex/hook up culture that is our society. I'm a big fan of that.


----------



## tobio

You know, I have always pondered what the female equivalent of MMSL etc is.

.I describe myself as the female version of a "nice guy." Obviously it doesn't have the same connotations but I would certainly be interested to read something like that. I've read generic lists of attractive female qualities and the usual book recommendations for couples but there's nothing I've seen that's bridged that gap for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

tobio said:


> You know, I have always pondered what the female equivalent of MMSL etc is.
> 
> .I describe myself as the female version of a "nice guy." Obviously it doesn't have the same connotations but I would certainly be interested to read something like that. I've read generic lists of attractive female qualities and the usual book recommendations for couples but there's nothing I've seen that's bridged that gap for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why Men Love B*tches: From Doormat to Dreamgirl - A Woman's Guide to Holding Her Own in a Relationship: Books

The name sounds awful, but the point is, Men want a confident woman too -who can hold her own, they don't want a wall flower.


----------



## Athena1

I just want to click "like" on French Fry's posts (especially the first two) again but there isn't another like button. 

I'm new here and still expanding my horizons with the new ideas kicking around, but I will say that the use of "alpha" seems to be the default thing to say to get a good "hoo-rah" out of the room, regardless of the content of the argument. It's a buzz-word and it gains popular approval, but not always for the right reasons. 

I don't like that the word "feminist" is derogatory, here. "Radical feminism", I think, is what people mean. Feminist just means seeking equality for the sexes. Men can be feminists. Feminists can advocate for men, if they are being treated unfairly. It doesn't mean man-hater, or hater of masculinity. 

I don't like that the alpha talk is often paired with an implication that women are incompetent. I often have to remind myself, when I see alpha, to keep reading with an open-mind because not all posters use it in this sense. 

And, to cap off this random stream of consciousness, the thing that drives me the most crazy on this issue is the use of sweeping generalizations. 

After all, all generalizations are false.


----------



## FalconKing

I think if there were a lot of threads about feminism I would probably feel the same way you guys feel about Alpha talk. Many men abuse Alpha philosophy to say that women are incompetent. Some men mean well but the negative things said about it can really make you shake your head. 

Some feminist are so extreme you would think they want to destroy men. Whenever I hear someone say that they are feminist even if they are just wanting to preach equality, my mind goes to that. And sometimes I think about the raw deals men can get(especially in divorce) I can sometimes hear feminist cackling and saying how men deserve that.


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## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> FrenchFry your post disappoints me. Not that it's wrong! *But because you are obviously speaking from your experiences and i'm disappointed you've had that kind of experience. I looked at that thread. It had great promise and it seemed really interesting. Unfortunately, certain topics will offend people or just make them defensive, it doesn't matter how you say them.* I think of my threads and I can relate.
> 
> .


^^^^^^
That's my point.

_"...Things fall apart...."_


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## Caribbean Man

Athena1 said:


> I just want to click "like" on French Fry's posts (especially the first two) again but there isn't another like button.
> 
> I'm new here and still expanding my horizons with the new ideas kicking around, but I will say that the use of "alpha" seems to be the default thing to say to get a good "hoo-rah" out of the room, regardless of the content of the argument. It's a buzz-word and it gains popular approval, but not always for the right reasons.
> 
> I don't like that the word "feminist" is derogatory, here. "Radical feminism", I think, is what people mean. Feminist just means seeking equality for the sexes. Men can be feminists. *Feminists can advocate for men, if they are being treated unfairly. * It doesn't mean man-hater, or hater of masculinity.
> 
> I don't like that the alpha talk is often paired with an implication that women are incompetent. I often have to remind myself, when I see alpha, to keep reading with an open-mind because not all posters use it in this sense.
> 
> And, to cap off this random stream of consciousness, the thing that drives me the most crazy on this issue is the use of sweeping generalizations.
> 
> After all, all generalizations are false.


:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
I think men are capable of handling themselves.
We have been doing so quite well since the dawn of time.


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## that_girl

And that's how society wanted you to view feminists.


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## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> I think if there were a lot of threads about feminism I would probably feel the same way you guys feel about Alpha talk. Many men abuse Alpha philosophy to say that women are incompetent. Some men mean well but the negative things said about it can really make you shake your head.
> 
> Some feminist are so extreme you would think they want to destroy men. Whenever I hear someone say that they are feminist even if they are just wanting to preach equality, my mind goes to that. And sometimes I think about the raw deals men can get(especially in divorce) I can sometimes hear feminist cackling and saying how men deserve that.


Its called,

"Half of a Dozen and Six of the other."

Half a dozen = Feminist
Six of the other = Alpha.


"...No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy...."
Henry Kissinger.


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## Athena1

Caribbean Man said:


> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> I think men are capable of handling themselves.
> We have been doing so quite well since the dawn of time.


Um, what?

I'm not sure what you're driving at, here.


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## Caribbean Man

Athena1 said:


> Um, what?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're driving at, here.


*"....I think men are capable of handling themselves.
We have been doing so quite well since the dawn of time..."
*


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## that_girl

Making it bold and underlined doesn't explain why you think men don't need help with things.

Is it because you don't want a woman's help? I'd advocate alongside men for freedom/rights if need be. Should I not do that in fear of insulting a man who can take care of himself?


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## Caribbean Man

tobio said:


> You know, I have always pondered what the female equivalent of MMSL etc is.
> 
> .I describe myself as the female version of a "nice guy." Obviously it doesn't have the same connotations but I would certainly be interested to read something like that. I've read generic lists of attractive female qualities and the usual book recommendations for couples but there's nothing I've seen that's bridged that gap for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And THAT is why I posted this morning that someone need to start threads like that.

A man cannot and should not do it .....


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## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> And that's how society wanted you to view feminists.


How about instead of feminist we say equal rights activist. 

And instead of Alpha we say confident men.

Maybe it's just the stigma attached to some of these terms.


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## Catherine602

Michie said:


> But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: :lol:


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## FalconKing

Seriously though, all men need a mixture of Alpha/Beta.

_For example:_
I like to take bubble baths(beta) but when I do, I use BRUT soap(*ALPHA*).


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## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Seriously though, all men need a mixture of Alpha/Beta.
> 
> _For example:_
> I like to take bubble baths(beta) but when I do, I use BRUT soap(*ALPHA*).


:rofl:

Stop it.


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## FalconKing

FrenchFry said:


> Ooooooh!
> 
> *puts on feminist hat*
> 
> I call myself a feminist and and equal rights activist because of this
> 
> 
> What feminists have that Alpha doesn't (at the moment) is feminist academics and feminist theory, a formal process in which what "is feminist" and "isn't feminist" can be talked about, weeded out, categorized and agreed upon to an extent.
> 
> So while both terms sort of have a stigma attached to them, feminists are able to point to formal works and discussions to be like "no, feminists aren't man-hating *****es" while the alpha/beta stuff...doesn't? Or doesn't have it to the point of academic consensus.


Well I think that's because lack of women's rights was an OBVIOUS problem. Men slowly losing respect from their wives or having marriages become sexless is something that's personal and probably something people rationalize as normal. Love and attraction fades and all that jazz. Also, the most recent advice for men in these situations was just to do household chores and be more nice to your wife. It's an emasculation of men that society was accepting of. There is a no study because I feel the phenomenon is still rather new nor as it seen as something that's a sense of suffering. Also, some feminist are indeed misandrist. Just like someone who can be prideful in their race can sometimes be a racist.


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## Caribbean Man

Athena1 said:


> I don't like that the word "Alpha" is derogatory, here. "Alpha Jerks", I think, is what people mean. Alpha just means seeking equality for the sexes. Women can be Alphas. [ Male ] Alphas can advocate for women, if they are being treated unfairly [ by men]. It doesn't mean woman hater, or hater of women.
> 
> .


^^^^^^
There. Re read it and see how it comes across to you.
All I did was switch the terms and genders.[ In red .]
[ Gender equality.]


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## that_girl

Oh man. :rofl:


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## Athena1

But... Alpha ISN'T derogatory here on the forum. (Quite the opposite).

And alpha certainly doesn't mean seeking equality for the sexes (though I recognize that it doesn't necessarilly preclude it, either.)

The words aren't interchangeable, at least not with regards to how I was discussing them.


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## Caribbean Man

Athena1 said:


> *But... Alpha ISN'T derogatory here on the forum. (Quite the opposite).
> *
> And alpha certainly doesn't mean seeking equality for the sexes (though I recognize that it doesn't necessarilly preclude it, either.)
> 
> The words aren't interchangeable, at least not with regards to how I was discussing them.


^^^^^
Highlighted part:scratchhead::scratchhead:


That's called 
** Cake eating **


You CANNOT have it both ways, if its supposed to be equal.


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## that_girl

/facepalm.


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## Caribbean Man

**trying to pick a fight since morning but constantly ignores her**


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## Athena1

...I can't hear the music you're dancing to.


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## Caribbean Man

Athena1 said:


> ...I can't hear the music you're dancing to.


Finally you get it!
Goodnight.........


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## that_girl

I'm not picking a fight. The things you say do NOT make sense. Being Alpha and wanting equal rights because you have a vagina instead of a penis is not the same.

I support Gay rights too. They want equal treatment. Is that the same as being Alpha? I don't think so.

Equal rights are for ALL people, Alpha or not.


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## Caribbean Man

I guess having a vagina makes you * special *

Guess what?

I support HUMAN RIGHTS.

Full Stop!

What does that make me?


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## that_girl

FULL STOP?! :rofl:

I support human rights too. Where the eff did I say I didn't?

Holy crap.

Being alpha and supporting the rights of people isn't the same. Get over yourself.

FULL STOP!


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## Caribbean Man

** continues ignoring her, logging off going to bed with wife**


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## that_girl

Hardly ignoring when you have to say you're ignoring me. 

That's so alpha  G'nite!


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## FalconKing

*snickers in the corner*


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## TiggyBlue

It seems to me the alpha, manning up talk seems to be about getting more self respect (which applies to all),
if some call it being alpha, manning up, nmmng then so then be it (it's all semantics).
I don't really so how it's disrespectful to women (we can apply it ourselves if we want to).


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## tobio

Caribbean Man said:


> And THAT is why I posted this morning that someone need to start threads like that.
> 
> A man cannot and should not do it .....


I guess I'm thinking about it "reflecting" (I'll go with that word for now) the ideology around increasing the Alpha, what revs the wife's engine, being a stand-up guy, that sort of thing.

Just initial thoughts but with that book that SA linked to (I realised I actually have another book by that author), I would hazard a guess that some of the traits around confidence would probably translate fairly well into the female domain.

I'd be really interested to find out more about what generic stuff would be recommended for lighting the fire of a husband whose wife can see he's lost interest. Much the same as the other-way-round situation that gets posted about a lot on here. I mean, there has been stuff posted about the biology of upping the Alpha in order to reignite the fire in the wife... I wonder what would be recommended to work the the other way round? I don't recall seeing anything on that here - is there anything?


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## Caribbean Man

tobio said:


> I guess I'm thinking about it "reflecting" (I'll go with that word for now) the ideology around increasing the Alpha, what revs the wife's engine, being a stand-up guy, that sort of thing.
> 
> Just initial thoughts but with that book that SA linked to (I realised I actually have another book by that author), I would hazard a guess that some of the traits around confidence would probably translate fairly well into the female domain.
> 
> I'd be really interested to find out more about what generic stuff would be recommended for lighting the fire of a husband whose wife can see he's lost interest. Much the same as the other-way-round situation that gets posted about a lot on here. I mean, there has been stuff posted about the biology of upping the Alpha in order to reignite the fire in the wife... I wonder what would be recommended to work the the other way round? I don't recall seeing anything on that here - is there anything?


Tobio,
I believe there is something that can be done, but I am not quite sure of what.
Like you, I have never really seen any thread that deals with it from the viewpoint of a female who's the victim.

However what I can say is that men rarely " withold " sex from their wives. Whenever that is the case, I think its either resentment , loss of respect , weight gain [ on the part of the wife ] or a general lack of self confidence.
Also there could be the aspect of porn/ masturbation , or an affair. There could be a number of reason, but the question remains how do YOU get him to respect you again , and rekindle the passion?
It sounds to me as if you're blaming yourself for what might really be_ his _problem though, and I'm wondering if that is part of the problem.
A good place to start might be to confront him and ask him why.
But you are correct in that some of the stuff that applies to men in such cases is actually gender neutral. It can wotk both ways.

Don't beg him. 
Respect and take care of yourself.
Make yourself attractive , _for you._
Try to redefine yourself.

Like I said before, I am just trying just like you to hazard a guess. Maybe during the day some others should be able to help.


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## StoneAngel

FalconKing said:


> Seriously though, all men need a mixture of Alpha/Beta.
> 
> _For example:_
> I like to take bubble baths(beta) but when I do, I use BRUT soap(*ALPHA*).


:smthumbup::rofl:

Considering the heaviness of this topic, you picked a wonderful time to add some honest comic relief.


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## FalconKing

Well I think people were making some good points. It went from the annoyance of the Alpha talk to some really thought provoking stuff. Good points came from both sides(IMO). My only regret is that I can't like my own posts. If I could I would have 1,000 likes. Then when people view this epic thread they will be like, "The ladies made some good points, but damn who is this FalconKing dude:scratchhead:? He has 1,000 likes! I bet his HOT!"...............................................................:yawn2:


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## SimplyAmorous

I only got likes on this thread when I called myself a B****, I guess that shows what some think of me ! I deleted that post.


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## tobio

Caribbean Man said:


> Tobio,
> I believe there is something that can be done, but I am not quite sure of what.
> Like you, I have never really seen any thread that deals with it from the viewpoint of a female who's the victim.
> 
> However what I can say is that men rarely " withold " sex from their wives. Whenever that is the case, I think its either resentment , loss of respect , weight gain [ on the part of the wife ] or a general lack of self confidence.
> Also there could be the aspect of porn/ masturbation , or an affair. There could be a number of reason, but the question remains how do YOU get him to respect you again , and rekindle the passion?
> It sounds to me as if you're blaming yourself for what might really be_ his _problem though, and I'm wondering if that is part of the problem.
> A good place to start might be to confront him and ask him why.
> But you are correct in that some of the stuff that applies to men in such cases is actually gender neutral. It can wotk both ways.
> 
> Don't beg him.
> Respect and take care of yourself.
> Make yourself attractive , _for you._
> Try to redefine yourself.
> 
> Like I said before, I am just trying just like you to hazard a guess. Maybe during the day some others should be able to help.


Sorry CM I didn't mean that was about me- more of a theoretical situation that 'd be interested on giventhereis plenty on here for the same situation in reverse. I wonder what those who offer help on how to Alpha up and get your wife interested in sex again would advise a woman wanting to get her husband interested in sex again following the same sort of ideas of biological imperatives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

tobio said:


> Sorry CM I didn't mean that was about me- more of a theoretical situation that 'd be interested on giventhereis plenty on here for the same situation in reverse. I wonder what those who offer help on how to Alpha up and get your wife interested in sex again would advise a woman wanting to get her husband interested in sex again following the same sort of ideas of biological imperatives.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


like I said yesterday,
Most of it is gender neutral IMO.

Furthermore, women are better able to understand women's issues from a woman's point of view.

Same with men.


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