# Having to maintain contact with the AP?



## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

How many on here have been stuck in situations where its just so much harder to move on because you have to maintain not only contact, but actually have interactions with the AP? I am having a bleak day....and was just curious how many have to still smile and feign something other than intense burning hatred for the AP.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> How many on here have been stuck in situations where its just so much harder to move on because you have to maintain not only contact, but actually have interactions with the AP? I am having a bleak day....and was just curious how many have to still smile and feign something other than intense burning hatred for the AP.


R is all but impossible if contact with the AP is maintained. There is no way for a BS to not be detrimentally negatively impacted by knowing the adulterous is in regular contact with the AP.

Either find a way to not be in contact with the AP or kiss R good-bey, because the chances of successful R under these conditions is so close to zero that it might as well be called zero.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

You were treated terribly by your husband and your sons girlfriend. Your story is one of the worst I’ve ever heard. 
Now I’m not trying to be mean or cold hearted here but you know that you only have two choices. 
You either accept the fact that you have to see your grandchild’s mother or you stop seeing your grandchild.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> You were treated terribly by your husband and your sons girlfriend. Your story is one of the worst I’ve ever heard.
> Now I’m not trying to be mean or cold hearted here but you know that you only have two choices.
> You either accept the fact that you have to see your grandchild’s mother or you stop seeing your grandchild.


You said it better than I was about to.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The person you should be having “intense burning hatred for” is your husband but you forgave him so my suggestion is that you do the same for your son’s ex-girlfriend.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> How many on here have been stuck in situations where its just so much harder to move on because you have to maintain not only contact, but actually have interactions with the AP? I am having a bleak day....and was just curious how many have to still smile and feign something other than intense burning hatred for the AP.


One of my children came into this world as a result of an affair. So, for about 11 years I had to deal with him on a regular basis. I only knew he was an AP for the last 3½ years, but that doesn't make it easier - just different.

That changed a couple months ago and he no longer has parental rights and I adopted my daughter. So for the most part he is out of the picture, besides mandatory yearly updates and struggles that will come up for my daughter and my other kids. It's still fresh and my family is still navigating the change but it is A LOT easier. My wife's other AP is totally out of the picture and "out of sight, out of mind" most of the time, so I have something to compare it to.

You are absolutely correct that having the AP in the picture and having to interact with them makes reconciliation harder, and damn near impossible. 

Do you really have to interact with the AP though? Is there really no other option? The best tools are avoiding contact and being in therapy to deal with it all and learn acceptance. 

I handled a lot of the pick up/drop offs but for years they were as low/no contact as possible. Having done that and having been more involved with the guy, I can say it's a lot easier when contact is limited or a third party is used. It's not perfect by any means, but it's easier. 

I see I commented on your other post a few years ago. If it's any consolation, that was posted at a pretty bad time for myself and my marriage and things did get better. Then bad again, then good, and it keeps repeating. It's a rollercoaster, especially with an AP in the picture.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Gee @Inside_Looking_Out I sure sympathise with you.
Is the R going OK? Is your husband doing all the right things and making you feel secure? If it's going well, then it's at least something. In other words are you happy to stay in your marriage now?

Does your husband have to see AP?
Is AP co-operative in allowing you to see your grand-daughter?
Could you get a family or friend to do the pick-up/drop-offs?

I presume you still don't still feel the same intense burning hatred for your husband as you do for AP. He's as much to blame as @Openminded said. But if you are managing to do R with him maybe somehow, for your own good, you can somehow overcome the anger with AP.
She doesn't deserve to occupy your headspace in any shape or form. The heck with her!
All it's doing is making you miserable, not her.

I still have to see my ex sometimes. When I look at him I imagine that he's just a cardboard cut-out figure and I gray rock him always. He doesn't exist for me and he's sure as hell not to going to reside in my headspace. It's a technique I was told my a friend who is a therapist and it works great for me. Now I don't even care if I have to see him. 

Don't let her spoil your life.

It's this anger that seems to be causing you so much pain. Maybe it's necessary to compartmentalise the husband/AP part. That's in another realm, another world.
I don't even know if compartmentalisation is possible. Perhaps a good therapist could help you with it?

Then there's the beautiful and precious world that you and your grandchild occupy. If you can somehow rope in the anger then you will enjoy your time together even more, both now and going into the future and you will feel a lightness of spirit. 

I'm so sorry you find yourself in such a horrendous situation.
It's easy for me to talk and give these suggestions but your post made me so sad.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I doubt you’re going to find any here who’ve gone through what you have. My own situation pales in comparison to yours. Very few woman who were betrayed on the scale that you were would have reconciled. The price, or at least part of it, is that apparently you have to have continued contact with your granddaughter’s mom. If there’s no way around that then I suggest therapy to learn to deal with it. You don’t have to smile and you don’t have to be friendly — you just have to be civil enough to get the job done for your granddaughter.


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## Thando0608 (Aug 21, 2021)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> How many on here have been stuck in situations where its just so much harder to move on because you have to maintain not only contact, but actually have interactions with the AP? I am having a bleak day....and was just curious how many have to still smile and feign something other than intense burning hatred for the AP.


I am sorry you are going through this. I am in a similar situation. I can identify with the feelings. And the hatred I feel is more towards my husband who I have to face each day. I look at him and wonder how he could do it, and yet he did.

Mine was an "9 month" emotional affair with my stepson's mother. Could be more.

I am in limbo currently because I still do not know how to carry on. Found out May last year. I have asked countless times how he is going to fix this since he created the situation.

Even though it may sound wrong, my small kids are keeping me here to find some solution or try some sort of solution before I give up.
Kids are 8, 6 and 3, and will have to live with half their parent at a time just like my stepson.

I will be reading your column for some wisdom.
I wish you strength.

I'm lost.


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## Thando0608 (Aug 21, 2021)

Thando0608 said:


> I am sorry you are going through this. I am in a similar situation. I can identify with the feelings. And the hatred I feel is more towards my husband who I have to face each day. I look at him and wonder how he could do it, and yet he did.
> 
> Mine was an "9 month" emotional affair with my stepson's mother. Could be more.
> 
> ...


I do not know if it being an EA on my end makes it minor? He definitely thinks so. 

EA because we are in a different countries, otherwise I don't know what would have happened??

I think I can identify with some of your feelings, and struggles.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> How many on here have been stuck in situations where its just so much harder to move on because you have to maintain not only contact, but actually have interactions with the AP? I am having a bleak day....and was just curious how many have to still smile and feign something other than intense burning hatred for the AP.


I am unclear whether you are still with your cheating husband. If so, I don't see why. I think what you need to do is dump him and stop caring about him. Then that will make it a little easier to be around the mother of your grandson. Because those two deserve each other. In the process of divorce a court might even, upon hearing these egregious extenuating circumstances that your husband put you in, do something to make visitation easier. If you haven't already you need to dump this guy before he brings even more chaos into your life


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I went through your history and skimmed the 13 pages of your thread regarding your husband's affair in Mexico (which he claims was not physical 🙄🙄🙄 ) as well as his incredibly low behavior of having sex with your son's estranged wife. And now she's the object of your hatred, apparently.

I'm guessing you've chosen to stay with Mr. Wonderful and the only way to continue eating the **** sandwich he happily served up to you is to direct all your hatred for* HIS *sleazy behavior onto your ex-DIL, the other half of this filthy little duo. I'll never understand why women (or men) direct ALL their hatred at the affair partner while continually making excuses for the incredibly scuzzy behavior of their cheating spouses. I guess it makes it easier for them to accept the horrific show of disrespect that was crammed down their throats if they can somehow delude themselves into thinking it was really the affair partner that caused this mess.

Sadly OP, you've made NO progress at all if you're still with your cheating husband and directing all your hatred at this woman. *No* progress whatsoever.

In all honesty OP, you made SO many excuses for your husband's unacceptable and disgusting behavior in that thread from 2018 that my eyes were rolling up into the back of my head almost constantly. Here's a quote from you from that thread from 4 years ago, where you said you'd read the following in a self-help book:

*You drop an M&M on the floor, and you probably feel okay picking it up, brushing it off and eating it anyway. You drop a piece of fish in the floor, and you know it's too gross, it's going in the trash.

That one blurb from that book has gone through my mind over and over and over again. I look at my husband, who is trying so very very hard...and think, "Are you the M&M or are you the fish?" *

Trust me when I tell you this - *he's the fish*.

For what it's worth, put your anger and disgust on the one who's shoulders it belongs - your husband's. No one said you had to love your sleazy ex-DIL, but it's ridiculous that you're directing all your anger at her in order to stay with Mr. Wonderful.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

I have been on this group long enough to know what to expect when posting, especially for a more or less vague post...so I retain some culpability in that I reckon...but dang, it does indeed make me shake my head that so many chose to 'kick' at my choices instead of answering the question. Especially when I even admit to having a down/bleak day.

So, here is a bit more information. 

1.) Yes, I am still with my husband. 
He indeed has done everything and more asked of him to continue navigating our relationship with a forward momentum. I have access to all of his online coming and goings. He limits his online activity to G rated activities, no superfluous conversations with the opposite sex, he regularly brings up the topic of what he did and asks how I am feeling and if I need to talk about anything. On days when I am particularly down or battling resentment, he understands and does not lash out in return. He understands my need to have the angry feelings and receives them with relative grace (sometimes there is some tension about it all, but that is understandable). All in all, he has done everything he possibly can beyond creating a time machine. In spite of this, I will likely always be suspicious of this change suddenly being dropped and something awful surfacing. To be clear....I knew what I signed up for when I stayed, and that was not my question in this post.

2.) My husband has zero contact with the AP.
I deal with all communications with the AP, who is the mother of my granddaughter. There is no one else that can do this unfortunately. My son is not in this state, other family members are not really physically or financially capable of stepping in when it comes to transportation and such. It would be clunky and inefficient. 

3.) My granddaughter lives with us now.
This is the reason I have to have even more contact with the AP. Her daughter has lived with us since October. I found out that the AP had moved out of the safe environment she and my granddaughter had been living in...to live homeless, out of her car, with a person she met off of TikTok. When I was made aware of what was happening, I stepped in and confronted her and informed her that she would be giving me my granddaughter and that she would not get her daughter back until she had created a safe and stable environment for her to live in. CPS is not involved at this point, because she willingly (not completely willingly, but she complied in the long run) gave her to me. I had her sign power of attorney paperwork giving me guardian rights. I have no idea when or if she will ever actually get her act together. 

So...to wrap it all up. Here I am...in a position of having to have very very regular contact with this person, who I do not respect in the slightest bit...but because of my granddaughter, I have to treat with respect. I refuse to weaponize my granddaughter's feelings towards her mommy. I would never do that to her. She has every right to love her mommy, to feel pride about who she comes from and to feel wanted by her. So now, I am in the position of having to help this person become the best mother she possibly can. I have no idea if she will ever become a good or capable mother. I have my doubts. But my granddaughter is owed that chance. I have a lot of history with the foster care system, from a variety of angles, and I know firsthand, no matter how many people step in, how badly it affects a child to wonder why they were never good enough for their mother to want them. If there is any chance to spare my granddaughter that, then I will do all I have to do to make that happen. I have made my peace with that. 

My question for this post was plainly...how many other people have had to do this....because I was simply feeling very alone in my predicament.

Thank you to bobert, ********** and Thando0608 for sharing your experiences with me. It helps.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I went through your history and skimmed the 13 pages of your thread regarding your husband's affair in Mexico (which he claims was not physical 🙄🙄🙄 ) as well as his incredibly low behavior of having sex with your son's estranged wife. And now she's the object of your hatred, apparently.
> 
> I'm guessing you've chosen to stay with Mr. Wonderful and the only way to continue eating the **** sandwich he happily served up to you is to direct all your hatred for* HIS *sleazy behavior onto your ex-DIL, the other half of this filthy little duo. I'll never understand why women (or men) direct ALL their hatred at the affair partner while continually making excuses for the incredibly scuzzy behavior of their cheating spouses. I guess it makes it easier for them to accept the horrific show of disrespect that was crammed down their throats if they can somehow delude themselves into thinking it was really the affair partner that caused this mess.
> 
> ...



Okay, to sum up that rather long post...the answer is, 'No, I do not have experience with what you are experiencing and have no actual useful advice or anecdote for you.' Got it...thanks.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

No, I do not have experience with what you are experiencing. What I have is a suggestion that you show the woman who was 26 when this occurred a little compassion. Not much mind you, but enough to acknowledge that she was done wrong by your son who knocked her up and then took off leaving her to raise his child and then she was preyed upon by your husband.

It seems to me, she is doing what is best for her daughter which is a hell of a lot more than the child's father. She could just as easily hate your guts for raising such an irresponsible excuse for a man and put the child into foster care. I don't know that if I were her that I would trust your husband around the child.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> No, I do not have experience with what you are experiencing. What I have is a suggestion that you show the woman who was 26 when this occurred a little compassion. Not much mind you, but enough to acknowledge that she was done wrong by your son who knocked her up and then took off leaving her to raise his child and then she was preyed upon by your husband.
> 
> It seems to me, she is doing what is best for her daughter which is a hell of a lot more than the child's father. She could just as easily hate your guts for raising such an irresponsible excuse for a man and put the child into foster care. I don't know that if I were her that I would trust your husband around the child.


I appreciate your perspective on it. Since I haven't posted about her other transgressions, you would not be aware that it has come to light that she has a history of going after older married men, has strayed into her family pool before even (also related through marriage, not biology) and has a situation with a second child that is pretty egregious but I won't post details about that here, but its pretty safe to say, she won't win a mother of the year award anytime soon. And, in looking at all the texts and emails, since I have them all in print, she indeed targeted my husband with purpose. Completely his fault that he ventured forward...but it is in black and white that she approached, and then pursued. 

You are not wrong about my son. I have pain and anguish over what went wrong there, and if it went so wrong, what makes me the right person to have my granddaughter living with me. However, it would be wrong to assume that because my husband had an affair with a grown woman, that would make him in any way a predator of a child. As a stranger on the internet, I understand why your mind might go there. 

If it helps to know this...most of her family knows what happened. And almost every family member, including her mother and immediate siblings, have told us they do not support my granddaughter going back to the mother, and that she should be with us instead. She has used, mistreated and lied to most every member of her family as well...and at this point, I am the only one left that is giving her a chance to improve her situation or even talk with her much. I am not looking for a cookie for that, just saying, she is a user, and she has burnt most her bridges.

I guess writing all this down really just makes me question why I am even giving this person a chance to get her child back at all...no matter how I feel about children staying with their mother if even slightly possible. I have the tendency to give people too much credit for potential to change...as many on here have even told me in regards to my husband. And I cant even say I hate this person. I know what I said in my original post...but I wasn't really stating my own hatred, I just wanted to know how many people have ever had to craft a relationship with someone that has done them so wrong. I don't know...I am boggled and confused and tired.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> _*I have been on this group long enough to know what to expect when posting, especially for a more or less vague post...so I retain some culpability in that I reckon...but dang, it does indeed make me shake my head that so many chose to 'kick' at my choices instead of answering the question. Especially when I even admit to having a down/bleak day.*_



That was my POINT, OP. It's been 4 years and you're STILL nowhere near being in a better place! You can play victim all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you chose to stay with a man who has CREATED this never-ending **** show that you continue to choose to live in.

And I did actually answer your question. I said when you finally put the blame for this atrocious behavior on the shoulders of the person it BELONGS on, then maybe you'll finally get somewhere.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> I am in the position of having to help this person become the best mother she possibly can.


To be honest, this isn't your job. It's the mother's job and it's something that only she can do. You can be open to reunification for sure, but that doesn't mean you have to enable the mother or hold her hand. 

It says a lot that this woman's family doesn't even want her to have her child back, and that you are the only person willing to give her a chance. You said above that you "have the tendency to give people too much credit for potential to change". Do make sure you are doing what is truly best for the child... 

My daughter's biological father is an alcoholic, drug user, and has mental health issues. He was clean and somewhat mentally stable for a while but when he started using again my wife and I did have to make sure our daughter was safe. That felt like a no-brainer, but it was also a hard thing to do because I (and my wife) felt like we were taking our daughter away from her biological father. He chose not to show up for his supervised visitation and in the end it was his choice to terminate his parental rights. He is the one who started asking about it over about 9 months, and he is the one who filed with the court once he knew I would adopt the daughter. As much as I wanted him out of the picture, it was (is) bittersweet to me because of my daughter. I'd like him to drop off the face of the planet but at the same time, that is still my daughter's father. ****ty or not. At one point she used to think she was lucky to have two dads, she used to be excited to see him, etc. and I miss that for her. 

You said you have to have a lot of contact with the mother, and I understand if it isn't possible to use a third party. Is it possible to limit it though? For example, if she is allowed to call anytime can you change that to a set schedule so you're not blindsided? Same thing with visits, can they be a set schedule and less frequently? I'm not saying they have to be super infrequent, but if you don't have a schedule you should and definitely don't let the child's mother walk all over you (I don't know if you do or not).

I know you said CPS isn't involved. Would it be better if they were? Would they be able to offer supervised visitation at a center? For my daughter, that meant dropping her off with the case worker and no contact at all with the OM. He was responsible for the cost of that. If a parent doesn't even want to pay that, well... though titties IMO. 

@Inside_Looking_Out, there is an ignore feature if there are certain users who you don't want to hear from.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I went through your history and skimmed the 13 pages of your thread regarding your husband's affair in Mexico (which he claims was not physical 🙄🙄🙄 ) as well as his incredibly low behavior of having sex with your son's estranged wife. And now she's the object of your hatred, apparently.
> 
> I'm guessing you've chosen to stay with Mr. Wonderful and the only way to continue eating the **** sandwich he happily served up to you is to direct all your hatred for* HIS *sleazy behavior onto your ex-DIL, the other half of this filthy little duo. I'll never understand why women (or men) direct ALL their hatred at the affair partner while continually making excuses for the incredibly scuzzy behavior of their cheating spouses. I guess it makes it easier for them to accept the horrific show of disrespect that was crammed down their throats if they can somehow delude themselves into thinking it was really the affair partner that caused this mess.
> 
> ...


The problem is that it does NOT solve her problem. Even if the H is gone, she I'm SURE would like to see her grandchild, and that kids mother is the AP -- so even if the H disappeared, she'd STILL have to deal with the AP.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> The problem is that it does NOT solve her problem. Even if the H is gone, she I'm SURE would like to see her grandchild, and that kids mother is the AP -- so even if the H disappeared, she'd STILL have to deal with the AP.


Thank you! That is a point many people seem to miss when they armchair quarterback my situation. I am permanently tied to the AP, no matter what my status is with my husband.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> Thank you! That is a point many people seem to miss when they armchair quarterback my situation. I am permanently tied to the AP, no matter what my status is with my husband.


You have my sympathy. I can see how this takes a toll on even the strongest of the strong.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> Thank you! That is a point many people seem to miss when they armchair quarterback my situation. I am permanently tied to the AP, no matter what my status is with my husband.


They don't forget, they just don't care about the relationship with the child at all. 

I had multiple people here tell me to divorce even if it meant losing my daughter (then "step"daughter) entirely. It didn't matter at all that she had been raised as my daughter from the day she was born and was 8 years old at that point, that I did not want to lose her, and that it was not in the child's best interest either. 

The attitude by some here is very much "**** the child, just divorce".


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

bobert said:


> The attitude by some here is very much "**** the child, just divorce".


This is not true. People were advising you to divorce because your household was so toxic it was bad for all of the children. And, it continues to be toxic albeit on a less regular basis.

Your situation can NOT be compared to the OP's situation.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> This is not true. People were advising you to divorce because your household was so toxic it was bad for all of the children. And, it continues to be toxic albeit on a less regular basis.
> 
> Your situation can NOT be compared to the OP's situation.


Hmm, funny then that the comments started as soon as I mentioned I didn't want to divorce and lose the child, which started before things got so "toxic".


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

I had to have an extended conversation with the AP yesterday about my granddaughter. They had spent a few days together because I had to go out of town. It doesn't really happen all that often. In the 8 months she has been with us, she has maybe gotten her 6 or so times. Each time she comes back home...there is no drama about it...she happily waves good bye to her, and is excited to run to her room to make sure everything is still in place. She usually has to be reminded to hug her mother goodbye. 

Now, there have been occasions before this most recent experience where she will mention her mother, saying she misses her or that she loves her and so on. She will usually ask me if I love her mommy or if I miss her too. I will tell her that it's good that she loves her mommy so much and that I am sure she misses her as well. I am super careful about her perceptions of my feelings about her, so if push come to shove, I will tell her that I love that she loves her mommy. I don't know if that's the right way to handle it or not...but it's the thing that sticks in my throat the least. All in all, they are drama free, matter of fact conversations. No crying, no hysterics.

BUT, this time has been much different. Lots of crying about how her mommy misses her, and is sad about her not living there and that she misses her mommy too. From what my granddaughter has conveyed, it's because her mother pumped her up so much about how sad she is that they don't live together and she is so anguished that they don't see each other enough, etc (I have NEVER said no to her seeing her daughter, I drive out of the way to make it happen the rare times she wants to see her, I know she has lots of days off where she opts to go to bars or get tattoo appointments instead...). So, it's pretty apparent she has started to guilt her daughter into being sad about living with me to make herself feel better. It makes her feel better if her daughter is sad about the situation. I was seething angry.

I contacted her to call her out on this awful behavior. I told her that when my granddaughter is prepping for a stay with her, I NEVER tell her that I am going to be sad that she is going to be gone. I tell her how excited I am that she is going for an adventure with her mommy, that I will be so happy to hear all about it when she comes back and that I am so happy for her to have time with her. And that is it. I never want her to have an added burden of guilt for wanting to spend with someone, especially when it's a situation she can't even control! 

The AP seemed to receive my tirade (this was all through written word, not in person), without too much animosity...but then again, she never really says much in return to begin with. She answers everyone with 'yah' or 'nah' or just a thumb's up....other family members complain about that as well. 

I have no real point to writing all this down other than to say...this is the kind of situation I am talking about when I made my original post. I have to swallow my distaste for this person, because it does not help my granddaughter to be any other way. I will not make my granddaughter feel like she came from an awful person or that she should feel guilty for loving her mommy. She can make those decisions for herself as she gets older if her mother continues to fail her, but it won't be me that flavors that if I can help it at all. 

Maybe this wouldn't be so hard if she had ever really apologized to me or shown some kind of remorse for what she did. It's not like I was an anonymous person that she was screwing over...she knew what she was doing when it happened. From the very beginning, she just acted like it never happened, and has never addressed it, even when confronted. She even tried to tell people I was lying. I had emails and photos...but even when she knew those items had been shown to family members, she still wanted to claim it didn't happen. I think it's this that is causing me to have a hard time dealing with her. I think I would have an easier time with it if there was even a hint of remorse. 

I am strong enough to deal with it, for the sake of my granddaughter....but there are days that are harder than others....and the other day was one of those.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Wow @Inside_Looking_Out, those extra details of the situation make is seem so much worse.
These things jumped out at me;


Inside_Looking_Out said:


> I have no idea when or if she will ever actually get her act together.





Inside_Looking_Out said:


> I have no idea if she will ever become a good or capable mother. I have my doubts.





Inside_Looking_Out said:


> I guess writing all this down really just makes me question why I am even giving this person a chance to get her child back at all...no matter how I feel about children staying with their mother if even slightly possible. I have the tendency to give people too much credit for potential to change...





Inside_Looking_Out said:


> she has a history of going after older married men, has strayed into her family pool before even (also related through marriage, not biology) and has a situation with a second child that is pretty egregious but I won't post details about that here, but its pretty safe to say, she won't win a mother of the year award anytime soon.





Inside_Looking_Out said:


> I drive out of the way to make it happen the rare times she wants to see her, I know she has lots of days off where she opts to go to bars or get tattoo appointments instead...). So, it's pretty apparent she has started to guilt her daughter into being sad about living with me to make herself feel better. It makes her feel better if her daughter is sad about the situation. I was seething angry.
> 
> Maybe this wouldn't be so hard if she had ever really apologized to me or shown some kind of remorse for what she did.


It is a horrendous situation. I'm giving a very different perspective here. I stress that it is my opinion only and also, I'm not a psychologist.

I understand your trying to avoid your granddaughter feeling in the future that her mother rejected her. But living with you for a year, or even less, is enough to generate those feelings of rejection when she is older because she will remember it. She will need therapy when she is older, as soon as she starts asking lots of questions about it.
So, in a way, the 'feelings of rejection' horse may already have bolted.

Even now, other kids might start asking her why she's not living with her Mommy. I guess she could be told Mommy doesn't have a house/is saving for a house/ has to work long hours, whatever would seem logical to the child appropriate to her age. When she is older she will need to be told the whole truth. She will have to be told because everyone in both families knows and it will come out accidentally if nothing else. Therapy is likely going to have to be ongoing as she works through it during her upbringing. I don't think it can be hidden from her in the long term.

So with that in mind, are you really really sure you should be trying to help AP become a better mother? Something that might never happen? It seems like a very long shot indeed from what I've quoted above.
We can't change anyone, we really can't. She has to want to change herself. You could be trying to change her behaviour for the next 10 years. There are some things that are simply out of our control. Reforming her would be almost impossible in my opinion from the information you have given, at least in the headspace she's in now. She is an unfit mother, otherwise, her child would not be living with you.

Despite your good intentions, you might actually be achieving the opposite by what you're doing, i.e. enabling her behaviour.

She has now started to manipulate you. She knew full well the effect it would have on her child by what she said to her on her last visit. She was already aware of what you wrote to her. That's why she responded the way she did, basically saying nothing instead of protesting etc.
Wow, she sounds like such an unsavoury character.

Also don't ever expect her to be remorseful, or show you even the slightest sign of it. To me, it's clear from what you said that she's not. So banish that thought!

Given all of the above, what about making your foster care official. When the authorities are satisfied that she can provide a safe home for her child (something that might never happen as you said), your granddaughter can go back to live with her.

That way the authorities deal with her, her fitness as a mother etc and *it takes you out of the equation in terms of your contact with her/ trying to change her*. They won't let her have the child if they're not satisfied with the living conditions. They're pretty strict about that. If she gets her back and ends up homeless again or whatever, you can simply alert them. If she starts undermining you as she's now doing causing the child damage, the authorities could deal with that too e.g. visits would be supervised if she continued to unsettle the child.

Your responsibility would be the foster care only.

Your thread was to ask about how to deal with the anger. As with any problem, it is necessary to address the cause of it it, not the effect. The problem is your engaging with her which is a LOT if you're trying to improve her motherhood skills––a huge if not impossible task.
This is the only way I can see to get rid of the root cause of the problem & thus your anger, seeing her only for handovers. (You even have to drive your granddaughter to see her, the mom should be picking her up, dropping her off, not you.) You can still do what you're doing, i.e. being positive to the child re her Mom etc.

From what you said in your later posts, personally, I would be angry every time I saw her, especially now that she has started using her daughter to manipulate the situation. She's using you now. . . you care for her daughter while she goes to bars and tatoo places on her days off while at the same time she's trying to undermine you and make things difficult for you trying to settle your granddaughter after the visits. I would be furious, just as you were.

You sound like a very generous person, maybe too generous. You're trying to address all the problems of the situation, the child, the mother who happens to be the AP, the fostering when you've already raised your own kids (and there will still be some effect on you with the R, even if it's going well, which is great). I'd be a basket case with all that.

Think of YOURSELF for a change. Where you are at now is taking a toll on your mental health and possibly your physical health too. You've had a very tough few years with the A, the R and now this. You're not superhuman. Maybe you should look at therapy too because it really is too much for anyone to deal with.

The authorities are there for a good reason. Maybe this situation calls for it, especially given the background. It really is an extreme.

-how old is your granddaughter?
-the AP has another child too??? does that child live with her?
-she doesn't even ask to see her daughter that often
-where is she living now? How does she survive financially?
- what about your son, after all the responsibility isn't 100% the mother's, he has 50%. Unfortunately in our so-called modern society, the mother gets the blame and is left with all the responsibility etc. Does he ever see the child, or pay child support?

Sorry that my post is so long.
Frankly, my concern in all of this is YOU.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> How many on here have been stuck in situations where its just so much harder to move on because you have to maintain not only contact, but actually have interactions with the AP? I am having a bleak day....and was just curious how many have to still smile and feign something other than intense burning hatred for the AP.


Go get gotten therapy. You could save the relationship or not. Change is needed by both of you. Learn the real hidden meaning of ephesians and Corinthians too.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

86857, thank you so much for taking so much time and thought on my situation. I wish I were a bit more adept at quoting sections of your reply...but I will try to respond to many of your points.

As of right now, my granddaughter doesn't go to school, she is still pretty young...but she will start when school starts back up for next year. So, she is not around a lot of other children yet, but you are correct, she certainly is seeing that things are different for her than other children.

I don't know how to even prepare for the future when she is older. I am still coming to terms with how to address that one day. Since I know I have no control over IF it comes out, I know I can only control what I tell her about it personally and how I convey the decisions I made. Honestly, writing here has helped with that. It is something to look back on, to recall why I made decisions in the way I did. I am open to pulling in outside professional help. I can't say that we ever found a therapist that helped for us, but I am willing to try again in the future.

As far as 'helping' the AP...maybe I have overstated how much I actually do. I don't give her money, I don't take her places, I don't take large blocks of time to deal with her face to face. I do transport my granddaughter to see her sometimes, sometimes I make her come to me. When that happens, my husband makes himself scarce. He knows how triggering it is for me to see them in the same place at the same time. Although, I have had to deal with that twice, for my granddaughter's sake.

I have had to have conversations with her, similar to the one I described before. Usually in the vein of, you can and should and need to do 'better' on XYZ topic. They are not that frequent. I have talked to her about getting an actual career, something that her daughter can be proud of. Something her daughter can look up to her for. At one time, I even mentioned that I would see what it would take financially for her to get some sort of vocational training...she balked and I realized that was stupid of me to even go there. I wasn't necessarily offering to pay for it, but would have gathered up her own family members that might have wanted to help and grant information and so on for her. As soon as it came out my mouth, I smacked myself mentally for letting my guard down with this person for that long. It all comes from a place of wanting my granddaughter to have at least one reliable parent. I recognize, my son, is not it. He is even worse than her. I do not hold the AP 100% responsible for my granddaughter. I have given her everything she would need to go after him for child support. He was not brought up to be this person, but it is the person he has decided to be.

Really the main support she is getting from me is that I am giving her a chance to decide for herself if her daughter is a priority or not. Or maybe you could say, I am giving her the chance to hang her own self. And from the rate of her doing anything proactive at all...you could say that is pretty much what is happening. 

I am still not sure how I feel about getting CPS involved yet. As long as she is cooperating with her being here...and she is not being contentious about it, I would prefer not to have them involved. I have dealt with them before. We officially adopted a family member a long time ago, and we had a foster child years and years ago. The child was lovely and we still keep in touch and they give us updates on their adult life. Dealing with the system was just plain awful. I do not have a ton of respect for the system and all the ways they can foul up the best of intentions. But you may very well be right, and at some point, I am going to have to pick a devil...CPS or dealing with her. 

And yes, she has another child. I have been hesitant to post many details on all that...because at some point, my story is so incredibly bizarre and specific, I really don't want a random coworker stumbling onto here and figuring out my personal drama. But, that is always the chance when posting on a public site like this. I guess I could have posted in the Private Members section....but I didn't think this many details were going to come out from my initial post.

Anyway...I will say...she had another child after my granddaughter, that she reportedly had on purpose, with a man that does not know the child exists, for the purpose of giving the child to a woman she had romantic notions about, in the hopes that would trap her into a relationship with her. It backfired on her. She gave the child to her, legally...the woman then married a different woman and friend zoned the AP after she got what she wanted. Everyone in the family knows this child is better off with the person that has adopted it. I have very little dealing with any of that...I only know details because her family members have told me about this. When I say that the AP was absolutely predatory, I mean it in the most serious sense. Yes, my husband is 100% to blame for responding...but this person has been working on trapping anyone they can into a serious commitment to them for a long time...my husband was one of many. 

In writing all that just now...its hitting me in the face. I picked my username, Inside Looking Out, because I often feel like the adage about the frog in boiling water. You place a frog in a pot of water and slowly bring it to a boil, it never realizes how unhealthy the situation is. You place a frog straight in the boiling water, it jumps right out. Its taking a lot to realize I am the frog in the slowly rising temps. I take just a little bit more, and a little bit more. But honestly, typing all that out in response to you, its hitting home. 

I could go back and edit this post, and change up it to make it seem like I see it all clear from the beginning, but I don't think I will. It's a process. I am going to reevaluate how I feel about CPS. I am scared of them using their affair against my granddaughter being here. I am scared of her ending up in foster care instead of with someone she knows. I know that has what has held me back the most. 

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me in such a thoughtful way 86857. It has really helped today, and I will be thinking a lot of all of this.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Don't forget @Inside_Looking_Out that it is very easy for me to suggest things since I'm not in your position. As I said I'm not a psychologist. Also, I've no idea of how it is to deal with the CPS and I never even thought of your excellent point that if they became aware of the A, they might be reluctant to have your granddaughter living with you.

As I said, I was thinking principally of you, your own welfare and your life because you are taking the brunt of all aspects of the situation.

I completely understand you want the very best for your granddaughter. I'd be exactly the same & I'd do anything I could to protect her in this unfortunate situation.

I'm glad your contact with AP is not as much as I thought.

Also, you deserve huge kudos for what you have done up to now, especially dealing with someone who is as devious as the AP. OMG, she sure is a piece of work! It's amazing how people like that can affect so many people's lives the way she has done and is doing. You managed to get power of attorney and get her cooperation and have your granddaughter living with you. A huge feat in itself. So give yourself a very big pat on the back for what you have achieved so far in an intolerable situation.

Look after YOURSELF in all this chaos. Go get a luxurious massage. Maybe go away for a weekend or better still, a week, with your husband and granddaughter e.g. to the beach or the mountains, whatever is closest to where you live. It's good to get right away from everything geographically, even for a few days. I found it helped me in my own situation.
86857


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