# Inquires for the ladies on TAM Re: Spontaneous & Reactive Sexual Desire



## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Hi TAM Ladies: 
Hoping for your honest insight and information on long standing complexity in my marriage. I am particularly interested in your experiences with either spontaneous or reactive sexual desire.

Background: Wife and I both mid-40's, been married 20+ years, 3 children (all 18+ years old). 

Sex has been a lot better in the marriage over the last 2 or 3 years compared to the past (quantity of sexual experiences is ok, quality of the sex itself is ok)

I personally crave eroticism, desire, getting turned on together, getting "horny", a energy build up and anticipation before sex. (at least for me, this is a big part of a sexual relationship, not just the physical act itself).

My wife.....enjoys sex, mostly for the physical aspect and "feeling close with me". She is happy to initiative sex or accept an initiation. She will say the quality of sex is good (she climaxes 95% of all sexual experiences, as we almost always include sex toys that "guarantee" her an orgasm.) She is open and vocal about her sexual needs and wants within the experiences.

My wife would say that she "does not get horny, does not think about sex, does not fantasize". She may think about it in the way of "its been a couple days and that would feel good, I should initiate sex", but not from any internal desire. For her, she says she gets turned on only after the act itself starts and she starts to experience physical pleasure. I fully believe and logically understand (I have read about this many times,....seems fairly common), but it is very hard for me to not feel sexually desired as well as not ever having the opportunity to have any build up to sex. There is not phase of "getting horny, teasing, looking forward to, or exploring sexual turn on's together. My wife does not work that way. For her, sex is not on the brain until it actually starts. 

So my question and inquiry to the ladies: 
1. Do any of you experience ONLY reactive desire (i.e don't crave sex, don't get horny, don't fanaticize)?
2. For those of you that do feel your desire is reactive (and not spontaneous), would you have any advise on how you would like to a partner who is interested in sex starting before the physical act to approach you about it? If you are not really thinking about it, and not craving it, how do you prefer to be approached without it seeming very mechanical?
3, For those of you that have reactive desire, do you feel that you had period of life when desire was more spontaneous....can you understand it logically, even without experiencing it? Can you empathize with why it can be a complicated dynamic? (FYI...not claiming one way is better or worse, but just that different styles can be complicated for each of the partners)
4. Any other advise for how to best improve sexual communication when spouses have very different styles of desire?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Hi TAM Ladies:
> Hoping for your honest insight and information on long standing complexity in my marriage. I am particularly interested in your experiences with either spontaneous or reactive sexual desire.
> 
> Background: Wife and I both mid-40's, been married 20+ years, 3 children (all 18+ years old).
> ...


I can't say I'm only reactive desire. But I'm mostly reactive desire. If I go for like 2 days without sex I could go for a year and not miss it other than miss being with my husband.

My question is can you deal with that? My husband is fine with me. Also if it's been like 24 hours I am thinking about sex and feeling sexual usually so during those times I may initiate.

3. I feel sex is more spontaneous after the kids became of age. 

I will try to find more time to type later.

Does your wife complain about mechanical? or is that your complaint?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Does your wife still need to fantasize about women in order to get off?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> I can't say I'm only reactive desire. But I'm mostly reactive desire. If I go for like 2 days without sex I could go for a year and not miss it other than miss being with my husband.
> 
> My question is can you deal with that? My husband is fine with me. Also if it's been like 24 hours I am thinking about sex and feeling sexual usually so during those times I may initiate.
> 
> ...


The initiation is "mechanical"...no lust build up, no wanting. Its my complaint, and not even a complaint, but hard to cope with how different it is. I have read and read and read about how some people have more of a reactive desire that one that just grows from within, but it is a struggle for me. I like getting turned on together before sex starts, but that is a strange concept for her.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Does your wife still need to fantasize about women in order to get off?


She says not anymore, of very rarely. Apparently (so she says), that was a phase. She will say that the mental picture of lesbian sex is arousing to her, but that she rarely ever thinks about sex (of any kind) outside of when she is in the act itself. She claims she is feels much more connected in our sex over the last few months and no longer drifts off into fantasy. She has also gone to zero masturbation (she was not frequent to begin with). She just says "I never really think about sex and dont have any urges, unless we happen to start kissing or touching, then I get into it"


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> The initiation is "mechanical"...no lust build up, no wanting. Its my complaint, and not even a complaint, but hard to cope with how different it is. I have read and read and read about how some people have more of a reactive desire that one that just grows from within, but it is a struggle for me. I like getting turned on together before sex starts, but that is a strange concept for her.


This is often a complaint women have. The advice is the same. Talk to your partner about it.

Now it can be 'difficult' to expect responsive desire to initiate as sex isn't necessarily on their mind. But it shouldn't be hard to ask your spouse to flirt with you. Also if there is change it kind of has to come from her. I find having conscious thoughts about my husband and sex help me. This is easier for me now that children take up less space in my head. But my job still takes up a lot of space. I also find it easier with my husband because he does sweet things which make me think of him. We also touch each other a lot which again brings it more to the front. If he didn't touch me or do sweet things I might not think about it.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Openminded said:


> Does your wife still need to fantasize about women in order to get off?


Opps I see this i a bigger issue than responsive desire.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> This is often a complaint women have. The advice is the same. Talk to your partner about it.
> 
> Now it can be 'difficult' to expect responsive desire to initiate as sex isn't necessarily on their mind. But it shouldn't be hard to ask your spouse to flirt with you. Also if there is change it kind of has to come from her. I find having conscious thoughts about my husband and sex help me. This is easier for me now that children take up less space in my head. But my job still takes up a lot of space. I also find it easier with my husband because he does sweet things which make me think of him. We also touch each other a lot which again brings it more to the front. If he didn't touch me or do sweet things I might not think about it.


FWIW, this post really helped me with something I'm struggling with. @Anastasia6 for the win today.  Thank you. Sorry, threadjack over. (I hope you see this)


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Opps I see this i a bigger issue than responsive desire.


Not sure if it is a "bigger" thing. It would take an hour to explain in writing, but the two matters are not overly related. It is true, as explained in other past posts, my wife went through some periods of time with often fantasizing about lesbian sex to reach orgasm, but there was more behind that situation


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

As I get replies...i am seeing maybe I did not explain enough.

My wife and I DO talk about this subject, and it a constructive and positive way (not fighting or disagreeing at all). 

For her, it boils down to that she says she "never thinks about sex, never craves it, does not get horny". For her, it is more the logical knowing it physically feels good and she feels close from sex, so she will initiative sex, even though there is not really any desire. Once she gets going, she feels desire. 

The "issue" for me is that the initiative and lead up to sex seems very mechanical. There is no "build up" or tension what so ever. 

We do flirt, we have tons of dates, our kids are older, she does not work, we have plenty of non-sexual touch, we cuddle, etc. She will be the first to to admit there is no major thing lacking, no resentment, no negative issues.....it is just that sexual thoughts never cross her mind and her only avenue to get into sex is to jump into the act. That is just so hard for me to accept. Although she is fine with it, I feel awkward and strange.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> Does your wife still need to fantasize about women in order to get off?


Good catch.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Good catch.


why is that a "good catch"? How do you see it related?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> As I get replies...i am seeing maybe I did not explain enough.
> 
> My wife and I DO talk about this subject, and it a constructive and positive way (not fighting or disagreeing at all).
> 
> ...


The fact she says she never thinks about sex, you know that's a white lie, right?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The fact she says she never thinks about sex, you know that's a white lie, right?


Are you saying that due to the lesbian fantasy topic?
To be honest, it was/is hard for me to believe, because I am so different and cant imagine not thinking about sex ever......but there is a whole buttload of research, article, books, posts, about people saying that is their normal....."reactive desire". Never fantasize, never get horny, only feel sexual once the act starts.....and she says that is her, other than very rare occasions


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> why is that a "good catch"? How do you see it related?


From your earlier 27 threads started, some semi related, it seems W had an interest in sexuality of other women.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Everyone is different which is completely normal. But whats most important is that it sounds like you two have a healthy sex life. I think that alone is a huge indicator of a healthy marriage.... Dont try anything that would complicate it.

It sounds like she definitely loves you and in a good way has become very used to good sex and trusts that you will please her.....In my opinion, you guys are firing on all cylinders.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> FWIW, this post really helped me with something I'm struggling with. @Anastasia6 for the win today.  Thank you. Sorry, threadjack over. (I hope you see this)


I'm not sure how I helped but happy to do it.

I've had whole threads where I have discussed my responsive desire. I'm kind of an anomoly though. If I recently had sex and an orgasm then I stay horny and I initiate. If the tingles wear off it is something I could easily live without. I have gotten more purposeful about thinking about sex and my husband as I am always striving to have a better marriage and sex life.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Are you saying that due to the lesbian fantasy topic?
> To be honest, it was/is hard for me to believe, because I am so different and cant imagine not thinking about sex ever......but there is a whole buttload of research, article, books, posts, about people saying that is their normal....."reactive desire". Never fantasize, never get horny, only feel sexual once the act starts.....and she says that is her, other than very rare occasions


Only going by your statement that said she herself never thinks about sex. 

I don't see how that's the case but you said it.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> As I get replies...i am seeing maybe I did not explain enough.
> 
> My wife and I DO talk about this subject, and it a constructive and positive way (not fighting or disagreeing at all).
> 
> ...


if cuddling and flirting isn't build up what is it you are expecting?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> From your earlier 27 threads started, some semi related, it seems W had an interest in sexuality of other women.


that is true, but regardless of her interests...she is finding no sexual interest (men or women)


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

ask Vanessa Marin


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IIRC, your wife never had an orgasm that didn’t involve fantasizing about women? I would think that’s more than just a phase she was going through. IOW, I wouldn’t bet you’re getting the real truth.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> if cuddling and flirting isn't build up what is it you are expecting?


OP, this is an excellent question. In one sentence, what specifically are you looking for?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Only going by your statement that said she herself never thinks about sex.
> 
> I don't see how that's the case but you said it.


in the past, her lesbian fantasies were DURING sex, not outside of


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> As I get replies...i am seeing maybe I did not explain enough.
> 
> My wife and I DO talk about this subject, and it a constructive and positive way (not fighting or disagreeing at all).
> 
> ...


So, with all this, what's the issue? Frequency?

Other than that, it's her feelings. You aren't her. She's not you. Her thought processes aren't yours.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> if cuddling and flirting isn't build up what is it you are expecting?
> [/QUOT





Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> So, with all this, what's the issue? Frequency?
> 
> Other than that, it's her feelings. You aren't her. She's not you. Her thought processes aren't yours.


Frequency is fine. It is just that there is no eroticism, no build up, no sexual banter outside the bedroom


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

I may only speak for myself, of course. I'm in my mid-50's and female.

With the right man/partner, I really want sex, a lot. With the wrong partner, I don't.

A lot goes into this, the right partner isn't just good looking in my eyes, but a great person, partner in all other ways too.

My first husband was a good looking man, a nice body, but I didn't want sex with him for many reasons.

So, I can't be highly sexual with the right partner and with others, well...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Frequency is fine. It is just that there is no eroticism, no build up, no sexual banter outside the bedroom


You lost me. You said there was cuddling and flirting.

What you are saying is there is stuff outside the bedroom it just isn't what you want.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Frequency is fine. It is just that there is no eroticism, no build up, no sexual banter outside the bedroom


Have you never had sex in other parts of the house? Sex isn't meant to be only in a bedroom. 

And why don't you start all the sexual bantering. It sounds like she joins in. Does she?


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

@Married_in_michigan, I have been wondering how you are doing. Its good to see you post again. My wife and I are in a very similar place and I will try and give you some of my thought when I have a little more time to type them.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@Married_in_michigan 

This bears repeating.

In one sentence, what specifically are you looking for?


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> You lost me. You said there was cuddling and flirting.
> 
> What you are saying is there is stuff outside the bedroom it just isn't what you want.


I don't want to put words in the OP's mouth, but I think he is saying it wants to feel desired. He wants his wife to pursue some of the things he wants at least sometimes.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I look forward to intimacy with my husband. I enjoy making out and enjoying our time. I don't walk around all day thinking about sex or psyching myself up. Not my jam. However, I am fine with letting him know I want to spend alone time with and let him know how I feel. Maybe some women walk around the entire day trying to get horny at work , doing chores, etc, but I don't think that's normal. I'm not sure we're on the same page, but if you're asking if I'm a horn dog during the work day (not when I'm actually with my husband), the answer is no. And I know the people and parents I work with don't want me sexed up and preoccupied on the job.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @Married_in_michigan
> 
> This bears repeating.
> 
> In one sentence, what specifically are you looking for?


One Sentence : *Desire, eroticism, turn on...before anything physical starts*


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

leftfield said:


> I don't want to put words in the OP's mouth, but I think he is saying it wants to feel desired. He wants his wife to pursue some of the things he wants at least sometimes.


I'd like to say this is both good and bad.

When me and my husband met and had sex and married for many years he was the initiator. To expect a sudden change is unrealistic.

It is worth discussing with your wife but relationships all have different dynamics. If your sexual relationship is that you initiate and she accepts then to expect her to change her sexual being is not necessarily fair. It is always ok to discuss and talk about desire.

I think my husband does feel desired but you are kind of asking a cat to act like a dog.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

leftfield said:


> I don't want to put words in the OP's mouth, but I think he is saying it wants to feel desired. He wants his wife to pursue some of the things he wants at least sometimes.


I am even ok if she has desire because she saw a sexy clip on a movie, read something in a book, had a random thought....I dont expect the desire to even be directed at me or about me (that would be nice also, but realistically not always the case).


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Hi TAM Ladies:
> Hoping for your honest insight and information on long standing complexity in my marriage. I am particularly interested in your experiences with either spontaneous or reactive sexual desire.
> 
> Background: Wife and I both mid-40's, been married 20+ years, 3 children (all 18+ years old).
> ...


I'm not a woman, but over time I noticed I'm getting to be more responsive desire. At first when I noticed (many years ago), my wife noticed also, and I went to the doctor; my testosterone was very low so I was put on TRT. About a month after that, my libido came back and it was a lot of fun that lasted for several years. Now, I'm noticing my libido is going down again and I don't really think about sex like I used to. All I can say is that it's not fun or exciting to be like this. I would do anything to have my old spontaneous desire back. When you have it, life is more interesting and better all around because it resonates to other areas of your life. Now, more and more it's not uncommon for me to now feel anxiety over sex. 

With that said, I can totally empathize with a lot of women who have reactive desire. When I see some of these married guys trying to "surprise" their wife with candles, wine, etc., and want her to get all sexy and whatnot, I just cringe as I know what she's probably thinking ("omg...now I have to do this"). I would hate if my wife put me on the spot like that. The only way I could have a good time in the sack now is if I know waaayyyy beforehand that it's going to happen and I can mentally prepare myself for it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Frequency is fine. It is just that there is no eroticism, no build up, no sexual banter outside the bedroom


Please dont expect her to be the same as you. You are different people with different thoughts and desires. She is who she is.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> One Sentence : *Desire, eroticism, turn on...before anything physical starts*


Very good. Not specific enough.
To you, her expression of desire should be what?
Eroticism, what act specifically?
Turn On, what exactly is an act that meets your need for this? 

Your still using broad categories, not acts.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> One Sentence : *Desire, eroticism, turn on...before anything physical starts*


so you expect her to feel desire before ?anything? starts. I think you watch too much porn. I desire my husband, I love my husband. I went twice yesterday and twice the day before. But... if something happens and I go a day or two unless I specifically think about it I don't just magically turn on. It's how I'm built. He knows this. I can't change this. I do now that I understand things better try to make a conscious effort to think about sex and to flirt with him and such and that helps. You are asking her to be a man. You realize men get horny when the wind blows so to speak. Sure there are woman that are like that but many are responsive desire. It means they respond to your desire and your initiation.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Very good. Not specific enough.
> To you, her expression of desire should be what?
> Eroticism, what act specifically?
> Turn On, what exactly is an act that meets your need for this?
> ...


Exactly. To me flirting is a building of desire. Maybe to you it is only a desire if it's dirty pictures.
To me cuddling is a building up to sex. touching being close.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Very good. Not specific enough.
> To you, her expression of desire should be what?
> Eroticism, what act specifically?
> Turn On, what exactly is an act that meets your need for this?
> ...


I guess I can just not find the right words. Its not about acts, but about intent


Have you ever read Esther Perel " Mating in Captivity"? 

"Sex is not something you do, but someplace you go" 


What happens between the ears is a lot more meaningful that what happens between the legs. 

Here is the 99% of the time scenario:
1. Wife will ask me if I want to have sex (she may use a few different phrases, but it is a verbal invitation). 
2. We go to the bedroom (yes, we do have sex outside the bedroom, but will use this to illustrate my example)
3. We get undressed
4. We get into bed
5. She will almost always spend 15 minutes talking about something unrelated (non-sexual topic)
6. At some point she will stop talking, pull me on top of her, and want to just "get going". (for her, once the sex starts, she mentally starts to get into the mood)

One variation:
1. Wife will ask me if I want to have sex (she may use a few different phrases, but it is a verbal invitation). 
2. We go to the bedroom (yes, we do have sex outside the bedroom, but will use this to illustrate my example)
3. We get undressed
4. We get into bed
5. She will almost always spend 15 minutes talking about something unrelated (non-sexual topic)
6. We will start kissing, touching, and lead to what ever sex act we do for that experience 

At no time do we build up any sexual excitement before we start into the physical act. There is no expression of sexual interest, suggestions of ideas to try, expressions of want, verbalizing anything about sexual interests or needs. 

it is always very non-sexual invitation and then just "jump into it"


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Exactly. To me flirting is a building of desire. Maybe to you it is only a desire if it's dirty pictures.
> To me cuddling is a building up to sex. touching being close.


I don't need dirty picture....but I really do need a build up that is not only physical. More of what is happening mentally that physically


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Are you saying you'd rather have her view porn or read 50 Shades and get some vision in her head that's not specific to you? 

I get that guys do that. I don't think may women do. My husband's smile, eyes, jokes, "footsie" do it for me. I'm not going to ready cheesy pseudo porn and then come and bang him because I'm in the mood. I'm going to be in the mood because of him and him alone. Honestly? If I got all hot and bothered about some 12 inch dong I saw online and that dragged him off to the bedroom, I'd feel like a fraud.

What is wrong with being actively engaged in sex at the moment? Why does it have to be smut fueled abstract horniness? Why not just get a dildo at that point?

I see sex as a union, relationship between 2 people that are emotionally invested in one another.

Reactive horniness... how about be glad you can make your wife horny???


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I don't need dirty picture....but I really do need a build up that is not only physical. More of what is happening mentally that physically


you are still being vague. What do you want? more importantly, you can't give us a specific idea which means your wife has no idea what you want either.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

It seems like shes not really that attracted to you. Are there any other martial issues? Possible cheating or EAs?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> you are still being vague. What do you want? more importantly, you can't give us a specific idea which means your wife has no idea what you want either.


@Married_in_michigan. maybe that is how this forum can help, by encouraging you to verbalize what you want from her. Your posts sound vague and almost like you're struggling for the words... I have found writing out what I want to say and editing and thinking it through to be very helpful when I can't figure out what I want to say.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> so you expect her to feel desire before ?anything? starts. I think you watch too much porn. I desire my husband, I love my husband. I went twice yesterday and twice the day before. But... if something happens and I go a day or two unless I specifically think about it I don't just magically turn on. It's how I'm built. He knows this. I can't change this. I do now that I understand things better try to make a conscious effort to think about sex and to flirt with him and such and that helps. You are asking her to be a man. You realize men get horny when the wind blows so to speak. Sure there are woman that are like that but many are responsive desire. It means they respond to your desire and your initiation.


This!!!

This whole thread is honestly weak and unattractive. You are whining to your wife, who will have sex whenever you want her to, that she's not turned on beforehand? You are seeking validation by her being magically turned on by you.

Be a man and just **** her good when you want. It sounds like this is what she wants too. It is unrealistic for your wife to be dripping wet begging you to have sex with her all the time.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm not married, but I will say I don't sit around ruminating about sex and talking dirty when I could be having actual sex instead of hashing it over, which usually has a very real ick factor.

Look, I'm just going to say this, and I know it's going to make you mad, but it's reality: No one cares as much about your penis as you do.

Your wife sounds sexy, willing, and able, and you are obsessing about the details and wishing she was fantasizing about you. Remember, having spontaneous confident sex has more momentum for most than doing a monologue about it or fishing for compliments. Also, you're basically wanting a woman to pretend something she simply isn't feeling, and that is going to come off as weak. It sounds to me like what you want is verbal validation and someone fawning over you, and I think that comes from some insecurity, and that isn't attractive, especially in bed. Is there someone you're fantasizing about in either real life or in porn that is making you wish your wife was that person or like that person?

If it's any consolation, she probably did fantasize to some extent when you first started dating. But there's no need to fantasize about someone when they're right there available all the time.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Hi TAM Ladies:
> Hoping for your honest insight and information on long standing complexity in my marriage. I am particularly interested in your experiences with either spontaneous or reactive sexual desire.
> 
> Background: Wife and I both mid-40's, been married 20+ years, 3 children (all 18+ years old).
> ...


I have bolded all of the parts of this post that describe my wife. Now let me answer your questions, as far as I understand my wife.
1. Yes, my wife seems to be fully responsive desire. She does not get horny or fantasize. Although she has gotten into the habit of having sex and if we have not done it recently she will initiate because she know the outcome will be good, not because she has a natural desire for it.
2. I'm not exactly sure what the best way to approach is. I'm still learning, but I have caught onto a few things. The best suggestion I can give, is to tell her what you want before doing it, then proceed to do what you want to do. My wife consistently tells me that this allows her to get into the experience more. This does create great experiences, but it will not give you the feeling of being desired that you are wanting.
3. I can't really answer this one. 
4. I doubt that communication is your problem. I believe that you want to feel desired by your wife and her way of showing desire does not match what makes you feel desired. What you really want is for your wife to do the things that make you feel desired. Asking for them, makes if feel insincere/less/reduced when you receive those experiences.

I have made several guesses about you in this post and I'll wait to see your responses in this thread before I say more.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IIRC, you have made it clear to your wife over the years that you find your sex life lacking. This is probably her way of “fixing” that so you don’t divorce her (can’t remember if you told her you might if things didn’t improve or possibly it could be a fear she has — or not). My opinion from the time I began posting on your threads is that she loves you but she has little or no real interest in you sexually. Her fantasies about women are what have fueled her over the years. I doubt that’s changed. IOW, I don’t think she’s ever going to be sexually who you want her to be.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> you are still being vague. What do you want? more importantly, you can't give us a specific idea which means your wife has no idea what you want either.


If I'm wrong than the OP can correct me. The reason he sounds vague is because he can not put words into his wife's mouth. He wants her to express some sexual interest verbally or through action before the sex starts. He would probably love his wife to say something like:
"I love when you do .............."
"I would like to .............." etc.
These are the things he wants as forplay (or erotisism as he called it). He sounds vague because he has no idea what his wife would put into those blanks. 

Unfortunatley for him, his wife will never say or think those things because that is just not her.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

leftfield said:


> If I'm wrong than the OP can correct me. The reason he sounds vague is because he can not put words into his wife's mouth. He wants her to express some sexual interest verbally or through action before the sex starts. He would probably love his wife to say something like:
> "I love when you do .............."
> "I would like to .............." etc.
> These are the things he wants as forplay (or erotisism as he called it). He sounds vague because he has no idea what his wife would put into those blanks.
> ...


And after x number of years. if you want to substantively change a sexual relationship you should be able to express those things. Otherwise you are as bad a the wives who get mad because the husband didn't know she wanted him to bring flowers home.

I don't think you should have to continually discuss it but I do think you need to be able to say. I desire you to tell me what you like or what turns your on when we are starting our foreplay. It may not come natural but many things don't come natural but loving spouses will try them.

It's a easy way to be unhappy if after 20 years you suddenly decide you want a different dynamic without some thoughtful conversation and you basically want a complete physiological change in your spouse. I might as well tell my husband Gee I suddenly realized I'd like your to be 5 inches taller.

I do have to wonder for both you and the OP. How much porn do you watch? How much rejection do you receive? How much have you tried to communicate with your spouse?

I know in lots of porn the pizza girl just magically wants sex (also magically orgasms with little to no effort)
I know rejection can be painful and therefor one after time might want to avoid that.
I know communication is tough sometimes and if not done in a loving way sounds an awful lot like gee I just wish I was married to some other woman like the one in the porn that I watch but I think you don't know about.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> And after x number of years. if you want to substantively change a sexual relationship you should be able to express those things. Otherwise you are as bad a the wives who get mad because the husband didn't know she wanted him to bring flowers home.
> 
> I don't think you should have to continually discuss it but I do think you need to be able to say. I desire you to tell me what you like or what turns your on when we are starting our foreplay. It may not come natural but many things don't come natural but loving spouses will try them.
> 
> ...


I'll reply to this simply because you included me in your comment.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this post. You make several large assumptions in your post, then proceed to lecture based off your assumptions. 

As for the questions you asked; this is not my thread, so I will not answer them.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

leftfield said:


> I'll reply to this simply because you included me in your comment.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this post. You make several large assumptions in your post, then proceed to lecture based off your assumptions.
> 
> As for the questions you asked; this is not my thread, so I will not answer them.


My only assumption is you said you and the OP are alike.

I am sorry you don't find anything I say something to think about. I've seen this malaise before here on TAM where long term married husbands suddenly want their wives to change their sexual dynamic often times in ways that aren't realistic or they want it to change without discussion. Because if I have to tell her to desire me it isn't desire or such.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> My only assumption is you said you and the OP are alike.
> 
> I am sorry you don't find anything I say something to think about. I've seen this malaise before here on TAM where long term married husbands suddenly want their wives to change their sexual dynamic often times in ways that aren't realistic or they want it to change without discussion. Because if I have to tell her to desire me it isn't desire or such.


If you read the comments, I made an assumptions about the OP wanting to feel desired and I made an assumption about how that feels for him. I then stopped my comment so the OP could respond.

You took my assumption and then used it for your own assumption of what is going on. Specifically that the OP is trying to drastically change things after 20 or so years of marriage. (At this point we are two assumptions away from the OP)

You then proceed to assume that poor communication is one big issue. And you also assume that porn is part of it. You also assume that they have foreplay (which the OP has indicated they don't). You also throw in an assumption that rejections has a part in this.

From my count that is at least 5 assumption in one comment. And some of those assumptions are built on other assumptions.

Anyways, this back and forth is now a thread jack. Please address the OP with any feedback you think will help him. As a women who identifies as responsive desire your comments have a lot of value. You should probably gloss over my comments unless the OP confirms or denies something I say.
Edit: was to clean up some spelling/English.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I guess I can just not find the right words. Its not about acts, but about intent
> 
> 
> Have you ever read Esther Perel " Mating in Captivity"?
> ...


The quickest way I can see turning a negative into a positive is to be more assertive re #5. 

Turn that 15min turn-off into verbal foreplay. Initiate a 15min conversation and tell her what you're going to do with her, what you've been thinking about, what you love/lust about her, etc.

But, word of warning - talk to her about wanting this change first, so she won't derail you outright the first time around. 

I don't think that would be asking her to change her personality; just making her aware you'd love to use that 15 min to get closer to what you desire.

That's as far as I'd take asking for her to change. Just this habit, not her whole person. She is who she is, and you're having sex.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I guess I can just not find the right words. Its not about acts, but about intent
> 
> 
> Have you ever read Esther Perel " Mating in Captivity"?
> ...


Hi @Married_in_michigan ,

I'm a responsive wife in my late 50's, and I also happen to enjoy a more female fantasy than male, so I think your wife and I may have something in common. To be blunt with you, I don't get you at all. Not even close. What do you want? What does "build up sexual excitement before the physical act" mean? If she's flirting and cuddling, that IS expression of sexual interest. 

It sounds to me like maybe you want her to talk about it more--like to use words to talk a little bit sensually--but as an example, if you said to me "What a suggestion of an idea to try?" well... I don't have any at the moment, and when I do have an idea, I say something like "Hey I have an idea. Let's try this..." Expressions of want and verbalizing about sexual interests and needs? Well...I want to have sex, I'm interested in sex, and I need sex. So why talk about it--let's have sex! That's how I think. 

When I go about my normal day, I think about spreadsheets, project management, deadlines and meetings...and what to do after dinner and making lunch for tomorrow. I don't think about sex PER SE. I might send a flirty kissy face or say "I'm thinking of you" but I don't necessarily think RAWR when I'm sending it. It's more like a purr. After a few days I do notice "Yum you feel pretty darn good" and I might even say that out loud, but that's about the extent of it. I'll hug. I'll cuddle...and there are "watching a movie on the couch" cuddles and there are hands roaming a little cuddles  And then if/when Beloved Buddhist is in the mood, he takes the reins and THAT gets me in the mood! When he takes charge--rawr! When he starts making his moves--Rawr! When we head upstairs giggling and throwing clothes off--RAWR!!

Now I do understand that this process is what gets a responsive person "going" and is not necessarily what gets a spontaneous person going. But if you can't articulate what gets yourself, a spontaneous person, going, and ask for it right out loud, then how is someone else supposed to understand it? 

It seems to me your wife is ready and willing, and she's fairly turned on because she responds to ya--right? So rather than wishing that she'd just "get it" why not ask her if she'd be willing to "ABC" and actually spell it out for her! Like ask her to write you an erotic poem or story. Ask if she'd be willing to talk a little dirty before heading upstairs. Whatever! Just ask "Hey would you be willing to do ___ for me? It helps me get turned on!" To me (and I suspect her) I would lay there and talk about a non-sexual topic, even naked, because that EMOTIONAL closeness makes me want to get PHYSICALLY close: Demi-sexual.  Since it seems conceiveable that your wife and I have some things in common, I don't think it's a huge stretch to think she's confused about what to do, because you don't articulate it very well. I suspect she would like to please you very much...so figure out what does please you and then ask her if she'd be willing to do it, spelling it out.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Are you saying that due to the lesbian fantasy topic?
> To be honest, it was/is hard for me to believe, because I am so different and cant imagine not thinking about sex ever......but there is a whole buttload of research, article, books, posts, about people saying that is their normal....."reactive desire". Never fantasize, never get horny, only feel sexual once the act starts.....and she says that is her, other than very rare occasions


I think the issue here is that a life with zero thoughts about sex (except during sex), zero fantasies (and a sexual fantasy can involve your spouse, someone else, whatever), probably does not equal a woman climaxing 95% of the time.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I guess I can just not find the right words. Its not about acts, but about intent
> 
> 
> Have you ever read Esther Perel " Mating in Captivity"?
> ...


The point is if you (or any person) cannot summarize what exactly is wanted, clearly, in one sentence or less, you don't know what would meet your definition of getting what you want, ie what success looks like.

That is YOUR problem. How can she do what you want if you are unable to define what you want?

You have the door open so you can move the goalposts, it's sounding like you do this on purpose. 

That will drive her away from even trying.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

If you have a picture in your head why don’t you just tell her straight up?

If the issue is you want her to drive things you might be waiting a long time. You have to wonder at some point why you want her to drive things and in do you even really care? What’s the difference if she’s happy to do it?

My wife does some of the same stuff yours does. She’ll hop into bed and then start blabbing about the weather or something non-sexual and if I am horny I will tell her what I want her to do. Sometimes she will go, “I don’t want to do that, I’ll do this!” Ok great, she has surprised the hell out of me before.

The key point there is if you need to drive the action just tell her exactly what you want. “I want you to drive.” is maybe even worth attempting. Maybe have her pick a day or something and tell her exactly the script you have in your head and see if she’ll do it.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the issue here is that a life with zero thoughts about sex (except during sex), zero fantasies (and a sexual fantasy can involve your spouse, someone else, whatever), probably does not equal a woman climaxing 95% of the time.


I can see why you would say that, but she is very keen on her toys and it is included in almost all sex sessions, and with the vibe, it is pretty much a sure thing. For the small amount of time she cannot climax, she is pretty vocal about it. 

if you took the vibes out of the equation, I would agree that climaxes percent would drop way, way down.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

leftfield said:


> I have bolded all of the parts of this post that describe my wife. Now let me answer your questions, as far as I understand my wife.
> 1. Yes, my wife seems to be fully responsive desire. She does not get horny or fantasize. Although she has gotten into the habit of having sex and if we have not done it recently she will initiate because she know the outcome will be good, not because she has a natural desire for it.
> 2. I'm not exactly sure what the best way to approach is. I'm still learning, but I have caught onto a few things. The best suggestion I can give, is to tell her what you want before doing it, then proceed to do what you want to do. My wife consistently tells me that this allows her to get into the experience more. This does create great experiences, but it will not give you the feeling of being desired that you are wanting.
> 3. I can't really answer this one.
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. I think you "get it"...and understand where I am coming from. Its not exactly the same, but you seem to at least understand where I am coming from. Not so much from others replying


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> And after x number of years. if you want to substantively change a sexual relationship you should be able to express those things. Otherwise you are as bad a the wives who get mad because the husband didn't know she wanted him to bring flowers home.
> 
> I don't think you should have to continually discuss it but I do think you need to be able to say. I desire you to tell me what you like or what turns your on when we are starting our foreplay. It may not come natural but many things don't come natural but loving spouses will try them.
> 
> ...


Porn is not influencing this. I understand why you may assume that, and how porn alters the way people assume sex should be....but not the case in this situation.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Quad73 said:


> The quickest way I can see turning a negative into a positive is to be more assertive re #5.
> 
> Turn that 15min turn-off into verbal foreplay. Initiate a 15min conversation and tell her what you're going to do with her, what you've been thinking about, what you love/lust about her, etc.
> 
> ...


I like your suggestion, and have tried that, but my approach was a bit too blunt. I need to find a way to "lean in" to that and see how it goes. It is hard for me to spend 15 minutes talking about remodeling our kitchen, and then just immediately start into sex. It works great for wife...she talks, clears her mind, then ready for sex, but I need some type of transition from talking non-sexual to switching mental mode to sex.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Hi @Married_in_michigan ,
> 
> I'm a responsive wife in my late 50's, and I also happen to enjoy a more female fantasy than male, so I think your wife and I may have something in common. To be blunt with you, I don't get you at all. Not even close. What do you want? What does "build up sexual excitement before the physical act" mean? If she's flirting and cuddling, that IS expression of sexual interest.
> 
> ...


so....i LOVED your response. I think you highlighted some of the way my wife thinks. I have made some specific suggestions and explained that for me, it is hard to go from 100% non-sexual to right into the act, and my wife logically understands this, but will say that until the physically act starts, her brain is just not thinking "sex", so things like dirty talk just don't work. She is not against it, just not on her mind. I have recently suggested that maybe we could at least kiss, touch, or start slower to ease into sex rather than going from talking about remodeling our kitchen to penetration.

I think what is hard for me to accept (and apparently explain on TAM), is that sex is way more that the act itself. It is part of a persons being. It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to. I feel like I get a lot of sexual acts, but outside of those "events", it is like sexuality is shut off. We don't have any sexual energy outside of sex itself. Maybe some people are fine with that, and as long as they get laid they are happy. For me, even if I am the only one, it is so much more than the act.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The point is if you (or any person) cannot summarize what exactly is wanted, clearly, in one sentence or less, you don't know what would meet your definition of getting what you want, ie what success looks like.
> 
> That is YOUR problem. How can she do what you want if you are unable to define what you want?
> 
> ...


You approach is too black and white for me. I will have to accept that my interest and expectations are not norm and unattainable, but for me its not about me just stating something that I want, it is about two people sharing themselves fully (which requires each party to fully contribute, not participate passively).


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> If you have a picture in your head why don’t you just tell her straight up?
> 
> If the issue is you want her to drive things you might be waiting a long time. You have to wonder at some point why you want her to drive things and in do you even really care? What’s the difference if she’s happy to do it?
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but that is not my struggle. She is already willing to do any act I ask (at least anything reasonable), but I need a partner I can mentally and emotionally connect with sexually, not just a physical act request.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I understand what you are saying, but that is not my struggle. She is already willing to do any act I ask (at least anything reasonable), but I need a partner I can mentally and emotionally connect with sexually, not just a physical act request.


So what do you mean by “mentally and emotionally connect with sexually”?

If you were writing a novel or a movie, what would the woman do such that you felt, mentally and emotionally connected by sexuality? Would she talk to you before, during? Would she have a certain look in her eyes?

If you can put together the images or words of what you’re after and explain what you want to her maybe she can do it or you can elicit it with cues.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> You approach is too black and white for me. I will have to accept that my interest and expectations are not norm and unattainable, but for me its not about me just stating something that I want, it is about two people sharing themselves fully (which requires each party to fully contribute, not participate passively).


And how is your approach working?

My point is I've observed many couples where one states what they want so generically the spouse gets aggravated trying to interpret what the other really means. This ALWAYS leads to stress and disappointments to both.

The results are there's one who wants to truly try but never guesses correctly what's meant by the other, and gets stressed. Because they truly want to do the right thing. The other spouse builds resentment because they think the other isn't getting it right on purpose. 

If you can't say what you want you have no foundation to think W will know what you want, certainly no reason to think bad of her for not reading your mind.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

This was not helpful to the thread.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

leftfield said:


> He already put it into words in this comment:


Which is like saying let's play ball! And leaves it up to her to gather up the accessories, dress for it, and load the car to go to the park.

Which ball sport? Baseball, softball, tennis, basketball, football, hell foosball.

And then blames her for loading the softball accessories when he was meaning tennis.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

leftfield said:


> He already put it into words in this comment:


_It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to._

So that’s maybe enough for someone to work with if they have spontaneous desire and think about sex. My wife doesn’t, maybe 1-2 days a month she could tell me verbally she is thinking about sex and wants to screw later. However if I explicitly told her, hey if you think about it I want you to tell me; she probably would.

Likewise if I started by sharing an innermost thought and then said, “What about you, what is one of your innermost thoughts?” I’d expect a thought coming back.

Thing is, with my wife she’s not going to drive the action. She would try if I asked her to but it’s not her.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> _It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to._
> 
> So that’s maybe enough for someone to work with if they have spontaneous desire and think about sex. My wife doesn’t, maybe 1-2 days a month she could tell me verbally she is thinking about sex and wants to screw later. However if I explicitly told her, hey if you think about it I want you to tell me; she probably would.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying. I hope the OP find this helpful.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I understand what you are saying, but that is not my struggle. She is already willing to do any act I ask (at least anything reasonable), but I need a partner I can mentally and emotionally connect with sexually, not just a physical act request.


I bet she wants this too. The challenge for you is to articulate exactly what that means. It’s a big challenge. I certainly can’t do it. I hope you can figure it out because both of you will happier.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the issue here is that a life with zero thoughts about sex (except during sex), zero fantasies (and a sexual fantasy can involve your spouse, someone else, whatever), probably does not equal a woman climaxing 95% of the time.


In a world of billions of woman there are absolutely some that fit this description.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I understand what you are saying, but that is not my struggle. She is already willing to do any act I ask (at least anything reasonable), but I need a partner I can mentally and emotionally connect with sexually, not just a physical act request.


Ok, what exactly does being mentally and emotionally connected mean to you?

How, specifically, will she be mentally and emotionally connected to you, if does (fill in the blank) it will be a success.

Don't worry, you get my drift, this is my last trek down this road. 🙂 and it's all good. 

Just bear in mind she'll get more and more stressed and exasperated if you can't be specific.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

This is from

ccpowerslave said:
_It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to._


So, anything that can be categorized in these works for you? 

I bet she's doing it already, or believes she's doing already. 
If you can't name an action (not even sexual), she can't. 

Hell, I'd be frustrated keeping trying towards moving goalposts.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I can see why it would be difficult for you to go from discussing a kitchen remodel one second and then jump into full penetration the next. Nothing sexy about that. Maybe she doesn’t think of it as anything but an orgasm.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> This is from
> 
> ccpowerslave said:
> _It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to._
> ...


So...this is part of where I am stuck. It is not that I cannot come up with specifics, but I dont want to feed her an answer. 

For example...is I say "hey beautiful, I would love for you to share something fun we could try next time we have sex"......she is going to try to accommodate me and make a suggestion, but it will likely be very ingenuous. In this example, I would prefer she bring ideas unprompted. I fully understand what you are telling me (in this reply and the previous), but the challenge for me is the root of my issue is wanting a genuine 2-way relationship.....which for me, does not mean me spelling out what actions to take. I am looking for someone (her) to be 50% of the relationship and contributing. It somewhat defeats the purpose to spell it out and ask for it.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I can see why it would be difficult for you to go from discussing a kitchen remodel one second and then jump into full penetration the next. Nothing sexy about that. Maybe she doesn’t think of it as anything but an orgasm.


for her, sometimes it really is about the orgasm or the physical pleasure. She is the first to admit she does not really get "horny" or have sexual lust. She enjoys the feeling, and she enjoys feeling close as a couple, so her motivation for sex is often very straight forward and can go from a totally non-sexual place. 

Although she rarely masturbates, she would tell you the same. For the rare times she does it, she would say 90% of those are NOT because she is horny or feeling sexual, but more because it feels good, helps her fall asleep, stress reduction, etc. She actually seems to really like sex itself. We do it a few times a week, she initiates, she likes different positions, different sexual acts, but it is often void of emotion and somewhat mechanical. It seems very focused on the value of orgasms' and feeling close and connected...but very little about her as a sexual being.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Married_in_michigan said:


> so....i LOVED your response. I think you highlighted some of the way my wife thinks. I have made some specific suggestions and explained that for me, it is hard to go from 100% non-sexual to right into the act, and my wife logically understands this, but will say that until the physically act starts, her brain is just not thinking "sex", so things like dirty talk just don't work. She is not against it, just not on her mind. I have recently suggested that maybe we could at least kiss, touch, or start slower to ease into sex rather than going from talking about remodeling our kitchen to penetration.


From what I can tell, I think this suggestion is along the right idea. Here's why: I think "I want eroticism" does not necessarily translate into "I'd like some kissing and touching and easing into sex..." Eroticism to some wives might mean like in romance novels! LOL Or it might mean flowers and a date. That's not what you would prefer... So I think that asking directly for some kissing and touching beforehand might be on the right track. 



> I think what is hard for me to accept (and apparently explain on TAM), is that sex is way more that the act itself. It is part of a persons being. _It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to. _I feel like I get a lot of sexual acts, but outside of those "events", it is like sexuality is shut off. We don't have any sexual energy outside of sex itself. Maybe some people are fine with that, and as long as they get laid they are happy. For me, even if I am the only one, it is so much more than the act.


and


> I understand what you are saying, but that is not my struggle. She is already willing to do any act I ask (at least anything reasonable), but I need a partner I can mentally and emotionally connect with sexually, not just a physical act request.


I see that some discussion has been made about "_It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to."_ Let me make an attempt to verbalize this for you. I ADORE my Beloved Buddhist--I'm crazy for the man. I would happily listen to and do my best to do most anything he'd request, but in order to do it, I have to understand what he's truly asking for. Let me give you a non-sexual example: his lunches. 

I have always packed his lunches because I view it as a loving thing to make sure he has some nutrition while he's away from home at work. Generally speaking, I enjoy packing his lunches because I feel domestic and like I'm caring for him. Right? BUT... for a while there I was trying to pack his lunch and crying over it! Know why? I would think, "He's an adult man and gets hungry during the day, so I'll pack him 2 oranges today..." or "He would appreciate a little treat (and I'd pack a cookie)." The next day he'd tell me the extra orange hurt his stomach--too much acid--or the cookie was too sweet and he didn't like sweets. So I'd pack 1 orange and no cookies...and he'd ask me why I don't pack as much anymore. I tried and tried to pack the right thing, and every day I got it wrong! And eventually I DREADED trying to pack his darn lunch because I knew I'd get it wrong! 

So when it wasn't time to pack the lunch, and when he wasn't rushing out the door in the morning, we had a discussion about it. I told him I was REALLY trying to do it right and just could not figure it out and it was driving me crazy because I felt AWFUL because he was clearly not pleased! I was just trying to make him happy and never could! Know what we discovered? It felt to me like he wanted something different every single day--one day a cookie...one day NO COOKIE! Right? But what it really was is that he felt like he didn't have a say in what he felt like eating. He wanted to be able to choose what HE liked--not what I wanted to give him. Well that's legitimate, isn't it? So he said he likes: a hard-boiled egg, a banana, an orange, some cheese, and if I bake one of my low-sugar, more natural treats, he likes those. AH HA! I can do that! Now every day I pack him what HE LIKES...and if he wants something extra he asks me to pack it (like the leftovers from 2 nights ago). Now I bake just for him, with low or no sugar because we like a treat but also don't love the way sugar makes us feel. 

@Married_in_michigan, your wife isn't here, so we can't really tell, from her, if she wants to make you happy or not. I do hear that it at least sounds like she has some willingness if she knew what to do. This is why I suggest being as clear as you can--so both of you have a way to make each other happy. 

Also, I had a VERY good talk with @Emerging Buddhist about this last night, and there was one thing that I completely hear in your own writing and what he said (or the way he said it): _It is expression, vulnerability, sharing of your inner most thoughts, expressing desire, sharing ideas, exploring together, looking forward to. _You want to feel wanted. You want connection. Just like everyone else on the planet, you want to be loved. What you are asking for is not so much "this or that" mechanic or technique OF SEX, but rather, the intimacy of a lover and making love. As EB put it, you are okay with some sex, but you want to MAKE LOVE. Now what's funny is that I "get" this! I understand that spouses want to feel desired. I also understand that people have different love languages and blah blah blah. May I make a suggestion? I recommend the book "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch, and I suggest you and your wife read it out loud to each other and then discuss it! It would surely lead to sharing of innermost thoughts and expression.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> So...this is part of where I am stuck. It is not that I cannot come up with specifics, but I dont want to feed her an answer.
> 
> For example...is I say "hey beautiful, I would love for you to share something fun we could try next time we have sex"......she is going to try to accommodate me and make a suggestion, but it will likely be very ingenuous. In this example, I would prefer she bring ideas unprompted. I fully understand what you are telling me (in this reply and the previous), but the challenge for me is the root of my issue is wanting a genuine 2-way relationship.....which for me, does not mean me spelling out what actions to take. I am looking for someone (her) to be 50% of the relationship and contributing. It somewhat defeats the purpose to spell it out and ask for it.


I believe that is where you are wrong.

I have no idea about your wife. But many women think sharing their life and talking about the kitchen is sharing is having an intimate relationship. They tell you things they may or may not tell others. 

The thing is you have different ways of being intimate. For you it is specifically sexy talk or thinking of sex for her it may be making you your favorite dinner or ironing you pants. I'm sure she is expressing her love and desire for you but you aren't hearing it because you speak different love languages. Telling her how you would like to see that love expressed shouldn't diminish it.

No more than when a wife say hey I'd like to have date night sometimes and the husband then starts taking her out every Friday. He is simply expressing his love for her in a way she hears. He would probably rather have sex with her.

But from your current viewpoint you'd just need a new wife because you wife is going to magically change who she is if she has no idea what you need.

Many woman have multiple trains of thought and have trouble shutting those off which can actually interfere with enjoying sex to it's fullest. I don't see the problem with letting her know that for many minutes before sex you'd like to talk about each other or just enjoy the moment.

I assume you give her ample opportunity to discuss the kitchen during other times.

Do you want to be in the no-win situation? Or do you want the chance of her thinking about how you hear her desire?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> So...this is part of where I am stuck. It is not that I cannot come up with specifics, but I dont want to feed her an answer.
> 
> For example...is I say "hey beautiful, I would love for you to share something fun we could try next time we have sex"......she is going to try to accommodate me and make a suggestion, but it will likely be very ingenuous. In this example, I would prefer she bring ideas unprompted. I fully understand what you are telling me (in this reply and the previous), but the challenge for me is the root of my issue is wanting a genuine 2-way relationship.....which for me, does not mean me spelling out what actions to take. I am looking for someone (her) to be 50% of the relationship and contributing. It somewhat defeats the purpose to spell it out and ask for it.


Maybe start an idea jar one for you, one for her. She what she puts in hers.

How about if she put in her jar, be quiet and jump my bones?

I get you, I do.

Beware of driving her away with all the neediness.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

She's never going to be able to read your mind. She doesn't know what you want. You have to tell her.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> From what I can tell, I think this suggestion is along the right idea. Here's why: I think "I want eroticism" does not necessarily translate into "I'd like some kissing and touching and easing into sex..." Eroticism to some wives might mean like in romance novels! LOL Or it might mean flowers and a date. That's not what you would prefer... So I think that asking directly for some kissing and touching beforehand might be on the right track.
> 
> 
> and
> ...


I like what you said, especially the last paragraph. Interestingly, we have both read a few of Schnarch's books (including Passionate Marriage). We both read that one and the "Crucible" twice (not out load to each other, but during the same time period and talked about what we read). It did help make some communication improvements and sex got better than it had been, but never really made a dent into this specific part of things. 

How do you tell someone you want to make love, and not just go the act? I can say the say that out load to her no problem, but its not easy for her to just do that. That comes with a mood and intention. Hard to make yourself make love to someone. I think she really would want to (she has said this many times), but for her that mood has to strike, and that is rare


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> It somewhat defeats the purpose to spell it out and ask for it.


Outside of the NRE period did she ever do this?

I thought about it hard and my wife never did. I thought about it harder and decided I don’t care.

She shows her two-way feelings for me by reacting to what I do and she’s not wired to spontaneously do it. In her own words, “I never think about sex.” Now she thinks about me thinking about sex, and that does it for her. 

So that’s different to how things were during the NRE phase and likely if you changed partners you could get back to what you’re looking for; or perhaps even find someone with spontaneous desire. But how would you be able to tell the difference between an exciting NRE period and where you eventually end up? I don’t think I could.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> Outside of the NRE period did she ever do this?
> 
> I thought about it hard and my wife never did. I thought about it harder and decided I don’t care.
> 
> ...


good point.........


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Married_in_michigan said:


> ....
> How do you tell someone you want to make love, and not just go the act? I can say the say that out load to her no problem, but its not easy for her to just do that. That comes with a mood and intention. Hard to make yourself make love to someone. I think she really would want to (she has said this many times), but for her that mood has to strike, and that is rare


You need to start setting the mood for her. You do this by telling her what you want to do and then let her respond to you. Maybe @ccpowerslave could give you some ideas about that. He understands this better than I do and he has shared a number of times how this works with his wife.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I like what you said, especially the last paragraph. Interestingly, we have both read a few of Schnarch's books (including Passionate Marriage). We both read that one and the "Crucible" twice (not out load to each other, but during the same time period and talked about what we read). It did help make some communication improvements and sex got better than it had been, but never really made a dent into this specific part of things.
> 
> How do you tell someone you want to make love, and not just go the act? I can say the say that out load to her no problem, but its not easy for her to just do that. That comes with a mood and intention. Hard to make yourself make love to someone. I think she really would want to (she has said this many times), but for her that mood has to strike, and that is rare


Try a test sample such as having sex or make love to her any way and every way you want, using your emotions and imagination, and as much as you want for a week BUT quit talking to her on how she should improve. For at least a week. But have a sex filled erotic and passionate week doing with her any thing you want (no I'm not saying be emotionally or physically hurtful) but believe you have free reign to love her as much and how you want and see how the week goes.

But do stop the telling her how she should improve, that will push her away.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I guess I can just not find the right words. Its not about acts, but about intent
> 
> 
> Have you ever read Esther Perel " Mating in Captivity"?
> ...


Full disclosure, I've only skim-read the thread.

It comes across to me that perhaps part of your 'disconnect' for lack of better word, relates more to yourself; in that, while you are focused on how you would like her to be different, perhaps it's that your own actions, expressions, way of being and connecting are not congruent within you. The way that you describe sexuality as part of one's being that taps into eroticism/sensuality seems to relate to connection. And that made me think of desiring perhaps a more tantric approach. However, just based on what you shared above, a small suggestion would be to switch up how you undress. This could be part of getting more in sync together, taking pleasure in the moment of undressing one another, and which may involve aspects that are connecting. I'm not going to spell out what could occur, however, I humbly offer this as a small consideration to how that part of your routine could be switched up simply.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Quick addition... based on a previous thread that you shared, and which I posted on, I interpret that your wife is not willing/able/allowing herself to be present in the moment to experience the simple pleasure of connection. Maybe I'm off with that perception, only she knows. And yet, previously you also raised that she was mentioning frequently that she felt inadequate that she needed to rely on sex toys to reach climax, and thinks of lesbian sex as 'naughty' and which gets her there mentally, while seemingly unwilling to alter this pattern within herself/with you. I may be way off, yet as I kind of posted previously, there seems to be a disconnect within herself too; as to what she is willing and able to experience as connection. I don't want to know this next part, however, assuming that she has sexual attraction to you, it may be interesting to you both to understand what the lesbian fantasies are about; whether the female form, certain way she imagines those interactions going, whether it's that she considers it taboo etc.

I'll stand corrected if I misinterpreted this thread, yet it really seems to be about wanting a deeper connection with your wife. The expression of that, focused through sexuality.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> So...this is part of where I am stuck. It is not that I cannot come up with specifics, but I dont want to feed her an answer.
> 
> For example...is I say "hey beautiful, I would love for you to share something fun we could try next time we have sex"......she is going to try to accommodate me and make a suggestion, but it will likely be very ingenuous. In this example, I would prefer she bring ideas unprompted. I fully understand what you are telling me (in this reply and the previous), but the challenge for me is the root of my issue is wanting a genuine 2-way relationship.....which for me, does not mean me spelling out what actions to take. I am looking for someone (her) to be 50% of the relationship and contributing. It somewhat defeats the purpose to spell it out and ask for it.


She probably feels you spelling it out and asking for it also defeats the purpose.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Maybe start an idea jar one for you, one for her. She what she puts in hers.
> 
> How about if she put in her jar, be quiet and jump my bones?
> 
> ...


^ That.

Plus I still want to know what gave him the idea to begin with after all this time. He must have seen that somewhere.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Married_in_michigan said:


> How do you tell someone you want to make love, and not just go the act?


Just on this, you mentioned mood and intention. Obviously we're all different; for me, being told that he wants to make love to me wouldn't float my boat. However, his 'energy' or vibe or body language or intent, whatever you want to call it, and/or likely a combination of these elements can set a tone that I pick up on. In part, there's aspects of seduction and being present with another. If you don't get what that means, I don't think it's something easily learned through a forum. I relate it to cultivating aspects of 'being' and knowing oneself. Essentially, it's how you conduct yourself and within your dynamic. Included with seduction is understanding what ignites the other person while also expressing who you are.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> She's never going to be able to read your mind. She doesn't know what you want. You have to tell her.


Sounds to me like that's the crux of his dilemma. He wants a wife who does know what he wants, without being told. It's no fun having to tell your partner what you want, because then when they do it, it doesn't feel loving or spontaneous, it feels like duty and obedience.

But I'd say that there are bigger things going on with her. She goes from talking about remodeling the kitchen to wanting penetration immediately? How does that work for her? If her default is not thinking about sex and she has responsive desire, then how can her body even be ready for PIV so quickly? I'm not sure responsive desire is the problem here, at least on her part. It sounds like HE'S the one who wants more warmup, more foreplay, before getting into it.

As always, the solution is more communication. Not in a "hey wife, do this for me" sort of way, but a neutral conversation, in a non-sexual setting, about how it would be awesome if their sex life was more lovemaking and not just sex, if there was more stroking and warmup. And then HE can start working that into their routine. She can talk about the kitchen while they cuddle and stroke each other, then when the talking is done, they can do a few other things before jumping to PIV. He doesn't have to be bossy or critical about it.

Sex is a partnership activity. Treat problems as a dilemma they should both solve as a team, not something that is only one person's fault and theirs alone to change.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Married_in_michigan said:


> So...this is part of where I am stuck. It is not that I cannot come up with specifics, but I dont want to feed her an answer.
> 
> For example...is I say "hey beautiful, I would love for you to share something fun we could try next time we have sex"......she is going to try to accommodate me and make a suggestion, but it will likely be very ingenuous. In this example, I would prefer she bring ideas unprompted. I fully understand what you are telling me (in this reply and the previous), but the challenge for me is the root of my issue is wanting a genuine 2-way relationship.....which for me, does not mean me spelling out what actions to take. I am looking for someone (her) to be 50% of the relationship and contributing. It somewhat defeats the purpose to spell it out and ask for it.


See, this is where you're banging your head against a wall, and it leads to you not thinking clearly. 

My wife can literally talk about a murder and baby poo 2min before getting it on, and thoroughly enjoy herself. You may not think so, but I know what you're talking about, exactly. I know what @ccpowerslave is talking about. Been there, fought about that, caused the resentments and taken the drives to the dead ends. 

I think you're not quite believing folks here who have been in these spontaneous /responsive dynamics and genuinely want to show you the exit out of this unreasonable expectation dilemma. 

It's on YOU to change your approach and attitude. She's already clearly accommodating you. Good Lord, she's read books on the subject with you! My wife would rather eat raw spiders. And yet we resolved it. It was on me to be more plain spoken and assertive (the opposite of what I was after). She followed as best she could, with much heightened desire as a direct result. Win win, but a tough ride to the top. 

In the end I needed to truly comprehend what folks have been telling you plainly here. You are blessed to have this kind of wisdom presented to you vs having to grope around in the dark by yourself. 

Read this thread top to bottom again, through the eyes of your accommodating wife... who is obviously trying her best to provide what you desire. 

--- You'll never change who she is, 

but you CAN provide her with better guidance, understanding and tools to satisfy your romantic needs. Do this simply and plainly and you will see change, and gain some wisdom in the process. You'll gain empathy as well. 

I'll give you one concrete example of how I dealt with the murder and baby poo: once I left a 1987 Penthouse magazine on the bed. That got a fantastically erotic conversation started.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Straight up, I hate sex threads. But here is my two cents. You are looking like reactive sex is a bad thing when it is not. It appears the biggest turn on for her is to know you want her. That is a pretty powerful feeling for a woman. To know her man wants her right this very second.

You asking her for a little extra build up before hand isn't going to cut it for either of you. You know your wife. Does she like you in a certain pair of jeans? Wear them for no good resson. Cop an unexpected feel. But be nonchalant about it. You want to get her thinking about it but not demand it of her. And for cryin out loud, lay back on the toys! Use the toys if you must to get the ball rollin but finish her yourself. Remember she likes to feel close to YOU not a toy.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

This thread is interesting; it seems like both OP and his wife are getting what they want, but in different ways, at different times. To the wife, "making love" is separated a bit from the orgasm/pleasure aspect. But she's getting both. Just not at the same time. OP appears mostly hurt or annoyed that the two aren't seen by her as one seemless act, as they are for himself.

Using sex as a metaphor for sex, it's kind of like the couple who both orgasm during sex, but that simultaneous orgasm just doesn't seem possible, or it at least very rare. 

For both examples, there are likely many here who are scratching their heads a bit and thinking, gee, I would sure trade my sex issues for his! Which makes me thing I'm not really getting it.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Basically OP, you're asking a blind person to "Please start seeing, because it's important and special to ME, and I want you to share the beauty I experience"

Instead, you need to be thinking about more direct, practical tools/help/understanding she could use to share in your world, and start treating her as being normal but different from you.

Best of luck, I hope you keep sharing your progress here.


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

I recently discovered a free app called 'Couply'. There is a series of quizzes in there designed to help you and your partner understand each other a little better. Of course, it doesn't replace talking, but it can aid it.

I am responsive to flirting and feeling desired. You may call this responsive desire. Do I think about sex when those conditions aren't met for me? No. I just don't get horny without them. My bf is responsive to having his emotional needs met and feeling desired. If he's not feeling 'connected' he isn't going to get horny.
We both have a primary love language of touch, but my secondary love language is talk and his is quality time. Link all that together and it usually means that if he flirts with me, says things that makes me feel desired, I'm going to get horny. If I give him quality time enabling us to connect deeper emotionally, he's going to get horny.

My point here is that we all probably have responsive desire so some degree or another. Some of his needs are different to mine, but because I understand those needs I make an effort to meet them regularly and he also does with me, which in turn leads to a healthy balance of who initiates and getting us both horny. It all starts with that understanding and effort first, on both sides, to make it work.


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## Rooster2015 (Jun 12, 2015)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Hi TAM Ladies:
> Hoping for your honest insight and information on long standing complexity in my marriage. I am particularly interested in your experiences with either spontaneous or reactive sexual desire.
> 
> Background: Wife and I both mid-40's, been married 20+ years, 3 children (all 18+ years old).
> ...





Married_in_michigan said:


> Hi TAM Ladies:
> Hoping for your honest insight and information on long standing complexity in my marriage. I am particularly interested in your experiences with either spontaneous or reactive sexual desire.
> 
> Background: Wife and I both mid-40's, been married 20+ years, 3 children (all 18+ years old).
> ...


To the OP. My wife of almost nine years is exactly the same. And yes in the beginning I struggled with this. But I decided I was doing more harm than good by continuing to question this. So here is what I did. I went to her and said why don’t we try and just schedule sex. We were already having sex several times per week. She was game to try anything. So what I did was say one of us would text the other a sign indicating sex later. It worked. If she didn’t want it that day I never made a big deal out of it. But other times she would get build up all day waiting. I worked towards being a great husband in between days. We would shower later in the evening then go to bed or where ever and get it on. What I found out was she initiated more once we started with this change. She said it removed the pressure on her.

This actually made us closer. She says this change made all the difference. Give this a try. Stop putting pressure on her. You won’t win.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Erudite said:


> Use the toys if you must to get the ball rollin but finish her yourself. Remember she likes to feel close to YOU not a toy


Don’t mean to threadjack but what if an orgasm isn’t possible without a toy ?


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

I don't know. I am not a sex therapist. But I just figure that his complaint is she does not get turned on by him out of the blue. But if there is always a toy, the association is with the toy not him. The whole Pavlov thing. But honestly, I am not an expert so I wouldn't dive too deep down that rabbit whole. Lol


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

gr8ful1 said:


> Don’t mean to threadjack but what if an orgasm isn’t possible without a toy ?


possible? Probably....
Likely......nope
She has told me (I dont ask), that she has only had 3 or 4 orgasms in the last 20 years without a vibrator. I think it is partly mental, and she knows it is so much easier with one that she just does not bother to try without one. She says "it takes a long time and I get way to distracted after that long"


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Thank you everyone who took the time to comment.
I am not always sure I was really understood, but much of that is my fault for being vague and not as specific as I could have been. Some of the replies went off in a direction that was really not related, but others provided me some nuggets I can work with.

After having had some time to self reflect, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts:


I am a fairly sexual person, in the way that sex and sexual expression is much more than the physical act.
For me, sex is 90% a headspace and much less about the how it physically manifests. 
I really enjoy and want a sexual partner who wants to explore, brings ideas to the table, looks forward to sexual experiences, shares their thoughts, and enjoys the eroticism of the moment (asking someone to think this way or asking them to do something specific completely takes away the originality and removes any genuineness)
I have experienced this more than once, and I can assure you, it cannot be asked for or explained to someone how to do this. It just is a way of being

My wife does have lesbian fantasies (as some people commented from my other posts), but as I know from much more details on this, it is not that she is not into men or me, it is just that it happens to be that lesbian sex turns her on, and as a person that is not overly sexual, it is a "tool" she has used to get her going or over the edge with a higher sex drive partner. Did it cause some question for me when I first heard about it....yes....but I know know more about this and feel comfortable it is not a contributing factor to the areas of our sex life that are difficult for me. (happy to explain for those that challenge this, but not sure it adds value to the rest of the people in the post)
Other I value the feedback about me needing to "stop always talking to her about this", I realized I did not explain that I dont actually hound her or talk about this much (did more earlier in the relationship, but not much in recent years). I am sharing with YOU GUYS, but most of what I am sharing is NOT something I am talking to her about. She shares things, or I learn things through her or our behaviors, but it is not as if I am hounding her about this subject. I am venting and asking from help on TAM, but within the marriage I dont "bug her" about this stuff. That would drive her crazy and be a huge turn off. We do talk in a positive way about our sex, but often I let her bring it up or if I do, it is in a non confrontation way in casual conversation. I am not accusatory or saying things that would intentionally make things worse for me. 
The reality is that my wife does not have a significant sex drive. Some of you will call BS on this and say "she would if it were with someone else", but I am not so sure of that. Maybe in the brand new stage it would spike up, but then would trail off to the same as it is in our relationship. 
My wife is very dependent on a vibrator during sex, but unlike some of the people replying...I think that is a symptom of not having much sexual drive than it is anything else. 
I decided, good or bad, to not include in this original post that my wife was on testosterone in 2018 and part of 2019 and she was a totally different person. She was super sexual and none of the challenges I complain about were present. NOTHING ELSE WAS DIFFERENT IN OUR MARRIAGE. She actually was on it for 10 months (drastic difference), then off a few months (immediate change), then back on for a few months. Each time was night and day difference from being on testosterone and not. During all of this, I did zero things different, our life was the same, stress levels same, etc. That told me a ton....


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Since, I assume, you don’t think your wife is bisexual/gay and the two of you understand each other’s sexual preferences then you may have seen basically as much improvement as you’re likely to. Apparently she doesn’t want to, or can’t, take testosterone all the time and without it her drive and interest is nowhere near yours. What you want and enjoy isn’t natural to her and apparently she isn’t willing to step it up more than she has. And, yes, I agree that if she were in a new relationship it would probably spike for a short while and then fall off. That happens to many women, unfortunately. She has to want more out of your sex life for things to really improve and so far she seems good with what she has. For now, you remain a sexual mismatch. I doubt you would divorce over this so do what you can to get the change you want while you accept it may never be enough for you.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I really enjoy and want a sexual partner who wants to explore, brings ideas to the table, looks forward to sexual experiences, shares their thoughts, and enjoys the eroticism of the moment (asking someone to think this way or asking them to do something specific completely takes away the originality and removes any genuineness). I have experienced this more than once, and I can assure you, it cannot be asked for or explained to someone how to do this. It just is a way of being


I'm seeing a big red flag here. It appears you're referring to not one, but multiple sexual relationships that you miss, and you're having a tough time reconciling that your wife isn't capable (under any circumstances, because, as you say, it's a "way of being" and it's not your wife's "way)."

This could be the single thing that over-rides everything else in your posts. It's coloring your view of... everything. Your wife cannot compete with your past (assuming I've read you correctly on this point). You may not have told her directly, but you've been together too long for her not to get a sense of your expectations and how you got them. Your wife, by your own determination, cannot be the person who desire her to be. It's up to you to determine if this is just a desire, or an unmet need that you feel must be met. And not possible for her to meet, by your own assessment.


> [*]My wife does have lesbian fantasies (as some people commented from my other posts), but as I know from much more details on this, it is not that she is not into men or me, it is just that it happens to be that lesbian sex turns her on, and as a person that is not overly sexual, it is a "tool" she has used to get her going or over the edge with a higher sex drive partner. Did it cause some question for me when I first heard about it....yes....but I know know more about this and feel comfortable it is not a contributing factor to the areas of our sex life that are difficult for me. (happy to explain for those that challenge this, but not sure it adds value to the rest of the people in the post)


The lesbian sex thing could be a response to your own views of homosexuality.Watching sex scenes on TV/movies/whatever, are you more comfortable watching girl-on-girl action than guy-on-guy? That's pretty typical for guys, and if your wife picks up on that, that girl-on-girl could even be a turn on for you, then that could be what she's most comfortable disclosing fantasies about. She might feel you'd be threatened, emascualted even, or at least have hurt feelings, if she talked about heterosexual fantasies.


> [*]The reality is that my wife does not have a significant sex drive. Some of you will call BS on this and say "she would if it were with someone else", but I am not so sure of that. Maybe in the brand new stage it would spike up, but then would trail off to the same as it is in our relationship.
> [*]My wife is very dependent on a vibrator during sex, but unlike some of the people replying...I think that is a symptom of not having much sexual drive than it is anything else.


It's really tough to get past the idea that someone who spends a lot of time successfully masturbating isn't a sexual person. It's just not sexual in the same way you are. She's. Not. You.


> [*]I decided, good or bad, to not include in this original post that my wife was on testosterone in 2018 and part of 2019 and she was a totally different person. She was super sexual and none of the challenges I complain about were present. NOTHING ELSE WAS DIFFERENT IN OUR MARRIAGE. She actually was on it for 10 months (drastic difference), then off a few months (immediate change), then back on for a few months. Each time was night and day difference from being on testosterone and not. During all of this, I did zero things different, our life was the same, stress levels same, etc. That told me a ton....


You need to provide some context here. Why was she on testosterone? Whose idea was it? Why did she get off it?

From what you've written about your wife, it sounds like you have a lot to work with. She loves you, and she sees value in sex with you. She's found something that works for her, and, I think, it would work for most spouses. I think you need help understanding why it doesn't work *for you.*


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> I'm seeing a big red flag here. It appears you're referring to not one, but multiple sexual relationships that you miss, and you're having a tough time reconciling that your wife isn't capable (under any circumstances, because, as you say, it's a "way of being" and it's not your wife's "way)."
> 
> This could be the single thing that over-rides everything else in your posts. It's coloring your view of... everything. Your wife cannot compete with your past (assuming I've read you correctly on this point). You may not have told her directly, but you've been together too long for her not to get a sense of your expectations and how you got them. Your wife, by your own determination, cannot be the person who desire her to be. It's up to you to determine if this is just a desire, or an unmet need that you feel must be met. And not possible for her to meet, by your own assessment.
> The lesbian sex thing could be a response to your own views of homosexuality.Watching sex scenes on TV/movies/whatever, are you more comfortable watching girl-on-girl action than guy-on-guy? That's pretty typical for guys, and if your wife picks up on that, that girl-on-girl could even be a turn on for you, then that could be what she's most comfortable disclosing fantasies about. She might feel you'd be threatened, emascualted even, or at least have hurt feelings, if she talked about heterosexual fantasies.
> ...


My wife got on testosterone after some close friends of ours (a couple) both explained how much positive things they got out of it. Wife actually really enjoyed the benefits of testosterone for a while, but as they were trying to find the perfect dosage for her, she had some side effects (very mild hair growth on her face....which was a show stopper for her). During the periods of time she was on it, the sexual expression was way different. It fairness to her, if you give someone enough testosterone, they are likely to be a lot more sexual than without it. I know that on meds it was "not really her normal self", but man....it was a great period of time for me. Since things were SO good sexually, we actually grew a lot closer in many other ways as well. It was like a second honeymoon phase. 

The lesbian fantasies have actually been around for her for a long time. Too much for me to write here, but I dont think it is anything about them being safer to share. Some things happened very early in our relationship that i did not even piece together until years later that I know can understand to be a significant sexual turn on for her with lesbian sex. A story for another time. 

As an interesting update....she raised a conversation with me this weekend, unprompted by me, that was a real eye opener for me. 

We were having a relaxing Saturday night, I had a fire going in our fireplace, we were enjoying some martinis, and out of the blue my wife posed an interesting question to me:

She said_ *"I know we have been so busy lately and we have not had sex as often during the week and mostly sex on weekends. I wanted you to know that I am aware of that and open to us setting aside some times for us to connect during the week. Sometimes when life is busy, I get so consumed with thoughts and processing stuff mentally, that I am not really thinking about other things or sex. Maybe it would be fun if during the week, before you start work, I could spend some time touching you and tell you something sexy to think about while I make you feel good"*_

I was really encouraged that she proactively brought this up to me. Her offer was not particularly exciting to me (it seemed like she was offering to get me off, knowing she was not thinking she would be in the mood), but the fact that she took initiative to notice sex was slowing down recently and was willing to think through and offer something was really encouraging. She rarely is proactive about sex. 

For a few minutes, I sipped on my martini and was really encouraged....then all my encouragement went quickly down the toilet with her follow-up comments.

I responded positively to her suggestion, and made sure to not give any impression other than positive feedback. 

then things got interesting....

A few minutes later, she proceeded to add some more comments:
She said _*" Just so you are aware, I would not be interested in you offering the same to me. I would not be comfortable with you telling me what to think about or envision during sex. I shared my fantasies with you, but also told you that I do not like the fact that I think about girl-on-girl sex. I dont like that part of myself and would prefer to avoid it. When you bring it up, knowing it turns me on, I feel manipulated and that you are encouraging me to do something I dont like about myself."*_

In reply, and very gently, I told her I was fine with her request and would honor it. I then asked her if maybe there were other things that would be sexually fun for her...maybe a new position, a new toy, exploring a fantasy that was not about lesbian sex. She said _*"I have no idea what turns me on. I cannot think of anything and never really have had any ideas about that*_." 

I dropped the conversation at this point and went on to other things and we did not revisit the conversation the rest of the night. 

My takeaways...
1. My wife feels guilty (or shame) that she gets turned on my thinking about lesbian sex, but yet that is always where her mind goes when she fantasizes
2. My wife feels that if I bring up the lesbian sex subject, it is manipulating her to do something she feels shame about
3. Seems that the main "go to" sexual turn on for my wife is also the thing that makes he feel shame and she would prefer to avoid. 
4. I felt sad for her.....to think that she has to try to suppress her own sexual feelings because it causes her to feel shame and bad about herself
5. It made me question how impactful this shame is on our 20+ years of sexual issues.
6. Made me feel a bit hopeless. if she does not allow herself to express her sexual desires (or it happens anyway and she feels bad about it afterwards), and also does not seem to have many other things that give her that same excitement, what has that done to her and our sexual relationship. 

I tried to put myself in her shoes...If I felt that the sexual things that turned me on made me feel shameful, I am not sure I would be all that interested in intentionally bringing them into my head or sexual experiences, but then left with what? A life devoid of sexual desire? Sex only because orgasms feel good?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My take on your wife has always been that at minimum she’s bisexual and lesbian sex is what is important. She loves you but my impression is that she can’t enjoy sex without her lesbian fantasies and probably can’t keep them out of her head even if she wanted to. I’m very surprised she shared her fantasies with you considering how she feels. If she actually is bisexual I doubt she’ll ever admit it because of her religious upbringing which presumably causes her to have negative feelings about it. I very seriously doubt she is capable of being the sexual partner you want.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> My wife got on testosterone after some close friends of ours (a couple) both explained how much positive things they got out of it. Wife actually really enjoyed the benefits of testosterone for a while, but as they were trying to find the perfect dosage for her, she had some side effects (very mild hair growth on her face....which was a show stopper for her). During the periods of time she was on it, the sexual expression was way different. It fairness to her, if you give someone enough testosterone, they are likely to be a lot more sexual than without it. I know that on meds it was "not really her normal self", but man....it was a great period of time for me. Since things were SO good sexually, we actually grew a lot closer in many other ways as well. It was like a second honeymoon phase.
> 
> The lesbian fantasies have actually been around for her for a long time. Too much for me to write here, but I dont think it is anything about them being safer to share. Some things happened very early in our relationship that i did not even piece together until years later that I know can understand to be a significant sexual turn on for her with lesbian sex. A story for another time.
> 
> ...


So what do you know of her past? Shame doesn’t come from nowhere. Is she/was she brought up with religion? Shame is a monstrously-huge negative on so many things. Fear of shame can help prevent, er, things for which you might become shameful of/regret. But once you cross the boundaries, once you did those “shameful” things, no good comes out of it. Guilt can motivate us to do better. Shame motivates us to avoid a feeling that we’re a bad person.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Openminded said:


> My take on your wife has always been that at minimum she’s bisexual and lesbian sex is what is important. She loves you but my impression is that she can’t enjoy sex without her lesbian fantasies and probably can’t keep them out of her head even if she wanted to. I’m very surprised she shared her fantasies with you considering how she feels. If she actually is bisexual I doubt she’ll ever admit it because of her religious upbringing which presumably causes her to have negative feelings about it. I very seriously doubt she is capable of being the sexual partner you want.


Agreed.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I've been reading @sokillme 's thread on dead bedroom, and the linked article and comments. What if there is really no such thing as responsive desire, just a lack of attraction that must be overcome so there's enough sex to keep the relationship intact? That would better explain things, IMO, because many of the women in that discussion do have spontaneous desire for someone else, but must be "persuaded" to have sex with their husbands.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I do think that if her sexual attraction is predominantly linked to women, that's not something that can be overcome by her husband.

If I knew that my husband fantasized about other men, and especially as a constant, then I would be concluding that he is gay (or potentially bisexual). Some might contest such categorization, however, that's what my view would be. And then, if he wanted to close off that 'side of himself' then I'd personally be thinking that's kind of sad. He wouldn't be living true to himself. And then, I'd probably be feeling a certain way about myself within that; knowing the limitations of really immersing ourselves sexually together. It's not something that would work for me, personally.

However, that's just my take if I were to put myself in the shoes of the OP. I'm not suggesting anything helpful, or different ways of approaching this. Perhaps other than if you are both willing to accept this is where you're at with one another and that acceptance is compatible, then so be it. I agree with @Openminded


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Married_in_michigan said:


> My takeaways...
> 4. I felt sad for her.....to think that she has to try to suppress her own sexual feelings because it causes her to feel shame and bad about herself
> 5. It made me question how impactful this shame is on our 20+ years of sexual issues.
> 6. Made me feel a bit hopeless. if she does not allow herself to express her sexual desires (or it happens anyway and she feels bad about it afterwards), and also does not seem to have many other things that give her that same excitement, what has that done to her and our sexual relationship.
> ...


Completely understandable that you'd feel that way and querying what that means to both you and her.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> So what do you know of her past? Shame doesn’t come from nowhere. Is she/was she brought up with religion? Shame is a monstrously-huge negative on so many things. Fear of shame can help prevent, er, things for which you might become shameful of/regret. But once you cross the boundaries, once you did those “shameful” things, no good comes out of it. Guilt can motivate us to do better. Shame motivates us to avoid a feeling that we’re a bad person.


She was raised in a born again Christian home and I think the shame she feels is knowing she has always been turned on my lesbian sex and her upbringing claims that is sinful and wrong. She has pretty much stated this out loud.

The complexity is that regardless if she feels it is right or wrong, she is wired to be turned on by it and cannot truly convince her mind to work other ways. I believe that sexual interests are likely imprinted on us during early sexual awakenings and for her, something about the idea of sex with a woman is what pushes her buttons.

She often will talk about men she finds attractive and she is almost always requesting PIV sex (which may be more about being close that it being a sexual specific interest). I do not doubt that she is bi-sexual, but I am 95% certain she is not only into women. She probably knows she is bisexual (knows=has admitted it to herself), but she has never put words to it to me. She talks about the fantasies and how they make her feel bad about herself, but she has never taken the step to say she is bisexual. 

Even if she is (which seems most of us agree), it pains me that she has shame to deal with as well as it really sucks if that alone stops our 20+ year marriage from having a more robust sex life.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Married_in_michigan said:


> The complexity is that regardless if she feels it is right or wrong, she is wired to be turned on by it and cannot truly convince her mind to work other ways. I believe that sexual interests are likely imprinted on us during early sexual awakenings and for her, something about the idea of sex with a woman is what pushes her buttons.


I don't know her, or you, and this is probably TMI from me. But maybe it's not that she wants to have sex with a woman so much that women's bodies are beautiful and women are completely non-threatening. I'm not saying men are _threatening_, it's just there's something more tender and gentle about women. Maybe it's the idea of sex that's about gentle arousal and tenderness is a turn on for her? I mean, you say she's super Christian and the whole reason our bodies are shaped like they are is because we're supposed to be sexually attractive in our youth? It's less sinful than just admiring the design. Just another viewpoint, maybe.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

I am not necessarily reactive desire only, but I can live without sex. You must understand where men and women differ. Men are far more visually stimulated, while women are not. My husband assumed taking me to a strip club (male or female) would cause sexual tension for me, yet it didn’t lol. I can watch XXX videos with him and while he becomes “ready” I’m still questioning (in my mind, of course) why the woman chose that outfit or why the man chose his hairstyle. A lot of the time, the only reason I’m spontaneous is when I know it will please him. I do it for him, but I surely don’t tell him, because men seem to think that means we aren’t “attracted to them” when, really, it’s because we just don’t have that same wiring as you guys do.
The truth is, I get turned on by knowing my husband is turned on by ME. I get turned on when I feel like I am being desired and wanted (not just needed for day to day tasks such as running a household). Maybe buy her some cute/sexy outfits, drool over how she looks in them, and let her know how sexy you find her. It goes a long way!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> …But I'd say that there are bigger things going on with her. She goes from talking about remodeling the kitchen to wanting penetration immediately? How does that work for her?…


@Married_in_michigan,

Consider conveying to her (in a neutral setting) that you’d like to understand what that’s about — what is going on inside of her, whether she is aware of the same pattern you see and/or she sees it all differently. Emphasize (if true) you are asking because you want to understand her and be in a better position to be loving towards her in a way that she’ll feel loved and desired.

Rhetorically, I’m wondering if it’s nervous chitchat to distract herself as she builds the mindset to be vulnerable and open? Or maybe it’s a consciously driven (or less so) way to put her needs, from her particular love language, on the table, hoping you’ll remember after she gives you yours sexually. (Kitchen remodeling could be related to her way of feeling loved, even if to others it sounds completely irrelevant).


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