# 3.5 years in to Reconcillation



## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

Title. Dday was 02/15/2017. Confronted after she had changed the phone password and I was able to get it away while she was sleeping. I guessed it, and then ran recovery software, and my worst fears were confirmed.

In the past 3.5 years, my wife, for the most part, has been a great candidate for R- so I think. There is one major stumbling block that we keep running in to, and I have made it very, very clear (from arguments, to me breaking down, pleading with her) to give me a timeline written out. 

She has provided (verbally) most of the details. I, however, am adamant about getting a written timeline. Mainly, because I know my wife- having to put words on paper is extremely uncomfortable for her, because it make the affair more real (not sure how much more real it can get, but whatever...). She has initially blamed her job and being busy as to why she hasn't provided one for me yet, even though it is CLEARLY something I need.

She then tells me, finally, that she is afraid to do it because "it makes her think about the affair, and the affair makes her sick". She's afraid to put herself back in that place. I would consider this 3.5 years of unnecessary torture. I'm convinced she's just terrified of writing out the details, especially since it's been so long now. I don't think she remembers exactly what she told me, or exactly what she remembers. That's her problem, not mine, I get that. 

My assumption is, that the version she will write out (she has started, I confirmed on her laptop) is going to be a 1000 times worse than what she has initially said, and that terrifies her because I may just leave. Maybe I should have done that 3.5 years ago, but kids, life, etc. 

I guess I am just looking for some thoughts, from WW and from BS's, as to reasons behind this delay. I feel that this is the equivalent of trying to throw a band-aid on a bullet hole- we both know I need trauma surgery to survive, yet she's watching me slowly bleed out, holding the phone and not calling 911. 

I'll provide any other insight or backstory as needed. Thank you to any who read and reply.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Wow I'm neither a WW or BS so maybe I have nothing of value to share. But my first question would be it has been 3.5 years and you say she is a good candidate for R. I would think you have already decided to R or D. The timeline is only going to tear open the wounds. I think the timeline would have been good 3.5 years ago. This late in the game it seems like pain shopping. Or looking for an excuse to D. You don't need and excuse, she cheated just D. 

If you are actually looking to R, I don't think I'd read the timeline at this point. Maybe have her write it out but I don't think I'd read it.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

Thank you for response. I pray you never have to go through this. Having said that, it is not as cut and dry as that. Regardless of R or D, I feel I need the time-line...to heal in this relationship or the next (if there was to ever be another one. At this point I'd rather sell my possessions and move to the woods).


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Cheaters tend to only admit to what they think you already know. That's why the required timeline subject to a polygraph test. 

None of her excuses were acceptable. The same selfishness, entitlement & lack of empathy for you that enabled her to commit adultery - also motivated her to protect herself at your expense for the last 3.5 years. 

Now you're reliving this nightmare (because time alone doesn't heal you). If she truly cared about you (more than herself), she'd spare you further agony and prepare a detailed timeline.

The timeline benefits both of you. You allowed her to rug sweep and act as if she's the victim of her adultery. There's only one victim - that's you. 

Unfortunately, by withholding information from you, she has prolonged your pain and prevented you from fully processing her betrayal.

Since you allowed her to stonewall you for over 3 years, you're going to have to insist on a timeline or divorce (bluff if you have to). 

Where ever she says: "I don't remember" (and she will) inform her that topic & her response will be on the polygraph test too.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

You allowed this to happen because you have only bluffed and put her back in control. She knows she can get away with. You are allowing your victim position to continue.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

Robert, thank you. I've had this argument with her numerous times over the past 3m5 years. She just drags her feet. She sees how pained I am by this, yet still drags her feet to get it done. 

I'm retired from an industry that is predicated on obtaining all the facts and information, that is why this is so hard to wait for. She knows this. I know she isn't consciously hurting me, but she knows she is by her inability to provide a written time-line. 

Unfortunately, this has set me back years, and I feel although the marriage is better in lots of areas, there is a cloud that has grown to a hurricane that hangs over me near daily.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I genuinely don't get this?

You made it clear from the beginning that in order to reconcile, you were to be given a written timeline of events? Is that correct?

And for 3.5 years, she's refused?

As a complete stranger who knows nothing about you or your wife, I'd say part of the problem in your relationship is that you don't mean what you say.

I mean, ideally, when you decided to set the standard, you would've given a deadline. But, I understand life doesn't always happen that way. 

How long are you willing to wait?



BarelyStanding said:


> In the past 3.5 years, my wife, for the most part, has been a great candidate for R- so I think. There is one major stumbling block that we keep running in to, and I have made it very, very clear (from arguments, to me breaking down, pleading with her) to give me a timeline written out.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She’s been hoping for 3.5 years that you would forget about it. Stalling. That’s classic rug sweeping. So, no, I wouldn’t say she’s a great candidate for R. If she were, she would have done this immediately because you’ve made it clear you needed it. That should be her first priority — not protecting herself. It hasn’t been. What does that tell you?

(For the record, I didn’t get a timeline or anything else that I already didn’t know about. I mistakenly chose to R the first time without any of it. Rug sweeping at its best. I wasn’t nearly as naive (read “stupid”) .the second time and I got out. My opinion? You should too.)


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I guess that makes me look weak, and I agree. Problem is, life gets in the way...running a business etc...I've forced myself to back burner my needs because I didn't want to cause her too much stress. She does work her ass off for our business...but shouldn't she have been willing to move heaven and earth to get this to me after an affair? 

Man, 10 years ago, I would've handled this completely differently. And that pisses me off. But life got in the way.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Her job was to do whatever it was you needed in order to heal. She didn’t. My husband didn’t either. He felt I would eventually quit asking and just continue on with our lives and he was correct. At least you have persisted.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

You started off with what you must have and now you are giving reasons you can’t have it. This is not reconciliation... it’s rug sweeping.

Decide which one you will do and stick to it. Make a choice... but don’t keep whining to your wife about It.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

Bro I'm not whining. Jfc. This isn't easy especially when kids are involved. I'm trying to lush myself to get the courage to do what needs to be done. It's not easy. 

I've told 0 people about the affair. I don't have anyone I can rely on. I'm not comfortable discussing it. That's on me. I know that. It's not easy discussing this stuff. My parents are dead, so I can't tell them. All of our friends are mutual friends, and have daughters that ours plays with. It's not that cut and dry.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

BarelyStanding said:


> Bro I'm not whining. Jfc. This isn't easy especially when kids are involved. I'm trying to lush myself to get the courage to do what needs to be done. It's not easy.
> 
> I've told 0 people about the affair. I don't have anyone I can rely on. I'm not comfortable discussing it. That's on me. I know that. It's not easy discussing this stuff. My parents are dead, so I can't tell them. All of our friends are mutual friends, and have daughters that ours plays with. It's not that cut and dry.


I’m sorry if I’m coming off harsh but all the things your doing are helping the rug sweep. She hasn’t taken accountability.... successfully navigating through reconciliation means she instantly provides everything you need. Your laying out a pillow for her to fall in when it should be the other way around


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I appreciate the tough love so to speak. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the reality that I've been suffering for 3.5 years asking for this. I think I've hit my wall. My birthday is is a couple weeks, I think I'll demand it by then or divorce.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I guess my main question is...and yes I'm sure I know the answer....should I have to wait this long for something I've asked for to help me in my healing? Bring the 2x4s.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Weak is harsh. Perhaps avoidant? Cause it's hard and painful.

And it's not so much about causing her stress as simply getting things done. As a businessman, you understand that?



BarelyStanding said:


> I guess that makes me look weak, and I agree. Problem is, life gets in the way...running a business etc...I've forced myself to back burner my needs because I didn't want to cause her too much stress. She does work her ass off for our business...but shouldn't she have been willing to move heaven and earth to get this to me after an affair?
> 
> Man, 10 years ago, I would've handled this completely differently. And that pisses me off. But life got in the way.


Yes, you can still do it now.

Get your life/paperwork in order, and then tell her one last time, 'this is what I need, and this is when I need it by'.

And then it's done. She'll either comply, or she won't.

If it's too much to say face to face, send an email.

But you really have to decide what you want, cause if you're not going to follow through with divorcing her, you need to sort out how to proceed.

To continually bring all this up with no consequences will lead to even more loss of respect, both in her eyes and your own.



BarelyStanding said:


> I appreciate the tough love so to speak. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the reality that I've been suffering for 3.5 years asking for this. I think I've hit my wall. My birthday is is a couple weeks, I think I'll demand it by then or divorce.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> I guess my main question is...and yes I'm sure I know the answer....should I have to wait this long for something I've asked for to help me in my healing? Bring the 2x4s.


It's good to ask these questions.

You both have choice... she can choose not to write this for you, for many reasons she feels I'm sure, but true remorse is show in actions.

If this is the deal-breaker for you, be kind and state it out loud after you have consulted with an attorney.

This will show her your boundary but be careful to not make it a play for brinkmanship unless you are willing to go to the brink.

If she gives you this timeline, what more are you needing?

If nothing else from her other than remaining faithful, and you tell her nothing else than that and be fair to honor your goalpost.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I need nothing else. I just know there's details she's "forgetting " and I'd like them written out for us to see in black and white.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

The only way to fix this problem is to give her a very hard deadline. Let's say 1 week from today. Tell her you need the timeline by then or you are calling an attorney to begin divorce proceedings.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

If she begs and pleads that she's afraid of how you'll react, well, then it must be REALLY bad and you have even more reason to end the marriage. Either way, you'll get closure, and so will she. Once she's written it out, she'll have no more to hide (assuming she's truthful with it).


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Write it out then (if you can't confront her face to face) and list exactly what you need etc - and give her 24 hours to provide it. All subject to a polygraph text (including any topic she says she no longer remembers).

In form her that although further details may make it more difficult to R - any lies or witholding of facts (uncovered by the polygraph) will guarantee divorce.

To show her how serious you are, the same day that you provide the list also meet with your attorney to find out how divorce will impact you (the first hour is typically free).

DO NOT discuss the dead line ...she's had 3.5 years ... she either complies or not.

If she wants to be married to you, then she will comply.

If she says it's makes her sad etc, then reply: I'm sorry you feel that way, but I am the victim of your decision to commit adultery and my need to heal from your betrayal should be your priority.

If she doesn't provide the timeline, separate your bank accounts, stop being her best friend and treat her like a roommate until you can file the paperwork.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

BarelyStanding said:


> Title. Dday was 02/15/2017. Confronted after she had changed the phone password and I was able to get it away while she was sleeping. I guessed it, and then ran recovery software, and my worst fears were confirmed.
> 
> In the past 3.5 years, my wife, for the most part, has been a great candidate for R- so I think. There is one major stumbling block that we keep running in to, and I have made it very, very clear (from arguments, to me breaking down, pleading with her) to give me a timeline written out.
> 
> ...


Prioritizing your concerns and needs above her discomfort and despair, is a prerequisite to her being remorseful and you considering her a legitimate reconciliation candidate. Right now, she's falling short, despite coming a long way.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

BarelyStanding said:


> I guess my main question is...and yes I'm sure I know the answer....should I have to wait this long for something I've asked for to help me in my healing? Bring the 2x4s.


There are lots of websites that guide and instruct couples through reconciliation. They impart to the wayward the things they need to know and do in order to help their spouse heal. If you and your wife referred to an instructional source like that, then I'd say you have been waiting way too long.

If you didn't use any source to guide you through this, then you both winged it with neither of you knowing what you HAD to do or what you SHOULD expect or that anything requested/expected should be forthcoming. Instead, you asked for something you needed to know, she has dragged her feet providing it for you, and you have allowed her to drag her feet. You need to get unstuck.

I think you should both start over now with reconciliation as if the betrayal occurred recently and you only recently found out about it. You're stuck in the past of your own prison anyway - unable to get over it and unable to get what you need to make a decision, and yet you have not demanded it from her. So start over for pete's sake.

Decide what you need.
Request it from her.
Give her a timeline to provide it (and don't allow her to tell you she forgot)
Determine what it means to you.
Make a decision.

Use a source of guidance, like* this one* or some other, so you both learn what is required and what can be expected in order to finally be able to move on in one direction or another.

Just a note: Don't let people on this forum pressure, bully, and batter you into blowing up your marriage. You obviously don't want to do that, and that's okay. The decision is entirely yours. If you want to reconcile, just get yourself to the point that you can do that with conviction. But you need to require that your wife does the work that she owes to you, or you'll never be able to make a decision. You'll never be able to move on either way. All you're doing right now, and for the past 3 years, is torturing both of you and still not getting anywhere.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Wat do you think you will get help about a timeline? Sex details? Actual length of affair? After 3.5 years she may not legitimately remember... More importantly what boundaries have you put in place and how's her behavior been? 

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## cocolo2019 (Aug 21, 2019)

OP, something important, if you decide to go for the divorce route, tell her family and your common friends the real reason for the divorce: her cheating act. 
You were supposed to do this close to your D day, because affairs are like vampires, they get destroyed when they are exposed to the light. But never is to late. She hurt you, so let her wear this (carimbo) seal of adulteress for the rest of her life.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I've seen this suggested a lot, and I completely disagree.

There's nothing admirable/honorable about gossip.

If someone close to you asks, and you want to be honest, then that's one thing. 

But bad-mouthing people to 'even the playing field' is much like a revenge affair. It's just full of bitterness, spite, and hatred, which is exactly how this poster comes across.



cocolo2019 said:


> OP, something important, if you decide to go for the divorce route, tell her family and your common friends the real reason for the divorce: her cheating act.
> You were supposed to do this close to your D day, because affairs are like vampires, they get destroyed when they are exposed to the light. *But never is to late. She hurt you, so let her wear this (carimbo) seal of adulteress for the rest of her life.*


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## cocolo2019 (Aug 21, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I've seen this suggested a lot, and I completely disagree.
> 
> There's nothing admirable/honorable about gossip.
> 
> ...


It is not bad- mouthing or gossiping, it is a recommendation to have beforehand a plain Blame-shifting Shield.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

BarelyStanding said:


> I appreciate the tough love so to speak. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the reality that I've been suffering for 3.5 years asking for this. I think I've hit my wall. My birthday is is a couple weeks, I think I'll demand it by then or divorce.


Just go to the attorney, have him/her draw up the divorce papers. Bring it to her, show her that it will be filed in the morning (or maybe 48 hrs), if you don't get what you want. Tell her you have waited 3.5 years, and it is clear that your feelings don't matter to her. You can't live with someone who doesn't want you to heal. It's now or never.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> I appreciate the tough love so to speak. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the reality that I've been suffering for 3.5 years asking for this. I think I've hit my wall. My birthday is is a couple weeks, I think I'll demand it by then or divorce.


That's what I would have done 3.5 years ago, said I wanted it by a specific date or I would end the marriage. She is hoping that you will give up, but you need to set a date and mean it. 
Also I suggest that you tell her that if you have any reason to think she is lying or omitting some things, you will want her to have a polygraph.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

StarFires said:


> There are lots of websites that guide and instruct couples through reconciliation. They impart to the wayward the things they need to know and do in order to help their spouse heal. If you and your wife referred to an instructional source like that, then I'd say you have been waiting way too long.
> 
> If you didn't use any source to guide you through this, then you both winged it with neither of you knowing what you HAD to do or what you SHOULD expect or that anything requested/expected should be forthcoming. Instead, you asked for something you needed to know, she has dragged her feet providing it for you, and you have allowed her to drag her feet. You need to get unstuck.
> 
> ...


You're suggesting someone who's been stuck in rugsweeping for 3.5 years should go to marriagebuilders?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

If I were to make a snap guess I would say she likely knows you will leave if you had the true information. Be prepared for the fact that it may be a lot worse than you think.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> I guess my main question is...and yes I'm sure I know the answer....should I have to wait this long for something I've asked for to help me in my healing? Bring the 2x4s.


Yep, you already know the answer. Re-phrase your question a bit. How long should she procrastinate before paying a penalty? You know she doesn't want to do it and won't do it during the next 3.5 years unless you increase her pain. . You know by now your pain and healing is of little consequence to her, right? So watching you dangle is not enough to get her out of her comfort zone, get off her azz and write the narrative. My recommendation is to give her a time line on her time line. She prepares the papers by the mid-night July X or you will file your papers by 12 noon the following day. Holding out a tin cup while displaying a drawn and sad face and begging her do the task, ain't worked and ain't gonna work, my man. Women don't roll that way.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BarelyStanding said:


> Robert, thank you. I've had this argument with her numerous times over the past 3m5 years. She just drags her feet. She sees how pained I am by this, yet still drags her feet to get it done.
> 
> I'm retired from an industry that is predicated on obtaining all the facts and information, that is why this is so hard to wait for. She knows this. I know she isn't consciously hurting me, but she knows she is by her inability to provide a written time-line.
> 
> Unfortunately, this has set me back years, and I feel although the marriage is better in lots of areas, there is a cloud that has grown to a hurricane that hangs over me near daily.


You need to tell her this. Tell her, I need to know it all otherwise I will assume the worse and file for divorce. Me filing for divorce depends on whether you cooperate or not. The chances are that it is actually worse that you think or know, that is why she is stalling. Pull off the bandaid and be relentless about this, she has given you the runaround for 3.5 years and you have let her. The problem is are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is, if not then accept the status quo and move along.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

No. You shouldn't have to wait 3.5 years for a timeline. But it was your choice not to mete out consequences. This is not R. You've been rugsweeping for 3.5 years. And your wife is not a good candidate for R--she's not given you what you've asked for. "Life getting in the way" doesn't cut it.

I'm sure she doesn't want to hurt you with a timeline,but I'm also hazarding a guess that she's forgotten the lies she's told you 3.5 years ago and is afraid to out pen to paper. Sounds like a royal mess.

Frankly, I think you're not happy with this wreckonciliation and want a way to get out.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Life "getting in the way" is not an excuse. You rug swept and your wife was a willing participant. You say she's a great candidate for R... but I don't see that at all. 

Your wife is still all about me, me, me and her excuses are a load of BS. But she knows that she can get away with it all, consequence free. 

It took less than 2 months for me to get a timeline from my WS. When it came time for the tables to turn and to deal with my "revenge affairs", I didn't want to. One of the main reasons was because I couldn't remember what I told her and what I hadn't. 

I'm guessing your wife is the same.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

The first thing here is that you need to decide for yourself once and for all if you want D or R. I agree with some here that I question if you really want R.
You started out well. You took the initiative and found out what she was running behind your back.
Then, you lost it. She regained the narrative, went on a rug sweeping initiative, and left you hanging.
If you want D, it is relatively clea rcut. Find yourself the best attorney you can find, and carve up the carcass of your marriage.
If you want R, you have a lot of work to do. You better start kicking ass, because you are about 3.5 years behind.
Your wife has proven that she is a selfish, self-centered, lying, manipulator who has little or no regard for her husband or her children. THEREFORE,WHO REALLY GIVES A DAMN WHAT SHE WANTS!
Now, things should be about your needs and the needs of your kids. If you haven't already, see an attorney and get some paperwork drawn up. Present her with a list of whatever you need, with deadlines attached. Tell her she will comply fully and honestly, or divorce will result. Give her a week for a comprehensive, complete timeline. Tell her anything she says will be subject to polygraph, at your pleasure. AND DO IT!
If you haven't, get yourself a copy of this book and read it:








How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair


As an infidelity specialist for 23 years, therapist Linda J. MacDonald has identified behaviors and attitudes that determine unfaithful p...



www.goodreads.com




After you are done, present it to her. Tell her that if she wants to be married to you, this had better become her bible to learn, implement and live.I would tell her she has three weeks to present to you a comprehensive action plan, addressing how she is going to repair the damage she has foisted upon you and your children, what she is going to do to make you "safe" in the marriage, and what she is going to do to become a better wife, mother, and person.
If she hasn't, she needs IC with a male infidelity specialist OF YOUR CHOICE (you vet them, pick two, she chooses one) with regular updates from him to you regarding her progress.
You need to remember, the opportunity to reconcile is a gift from you. She doesn't get to negotiate or worm her way out of things. Either HOLD HER ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER ACTIONS AND MANDATE MEANINGFUL CHANGE or walk away.
EDIT AND ADDITION: You tell her that the price of even attempting to engage in R is a generous postnup, favorable to you.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Tdbo said:


> Your wife has proven that she is a selfish, self-centered, lying, manipulator who has little or no regard for her husband or her children. THEREFORE,WHO REALLY GIVES A DAMN WHAT SHE WANTS!


Amen. Go forward, based upon this premise. @Tdbo has this exactly right.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

If there is a free moment you both have, and if you want a timeline, sit her down, and make her write it, right then and there. You need to be more assertive. If she makes excuses in that moment, then decide to divorce, if it's the timeline that's troubling you. That's it. If she doesn't respect your conditions, I don't think she's worth the time. But you need to practice consistency, without it, (not to be cruel) you'll be a doormat for anyone, even anyone in a future relationship.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

You should also tell her you already know she hasn't been honest with you yet and shouldn't worry about trying to remember what lies she told you, just site down and write out the full truth because she's going to have to pass a polygraph about it to stay in the marriage anyway.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I hate to be harsh (no really) but 3.5 years of suffering. Some needs to give you a come to Jesus moment. Might as well be me.

I am not sure what you want us to tell you but I mean this is kind of the deal you signed up for isn't it. You need to consider that this is what you life is going to be moving forward especially with your attitude and who you are married to. The problems isn't the details or if your wife is doing everything (if she isn't willing to write a timeline she is not even close by the way), it's that there is never going to be the certainty that you look for and it's never going to go away, not with this women. Even with a perfectly exact timeline at this point you have bigger problems. I think if you start being honest with yourself you already know this, you just don't want to accept it. Well until you have the courage to start accepting reality your life isn't going to improve. So here it is in all it's harshness.

One problem is you treat your wife like a child. You also continue to idealize her and not see her for who she really is but I will get back to that. She is a grown ass adult, not some poor victim. She had enough assertiveness to have an affair! She can write a stupid timeline! It's a joke that you are even being so nice about it. Man does she have you fooled. Wrapped around her finger. She can spit in your face and then tell you it's too painful to wipe it off. Do you see what's wrong here? It should be painful that is the consequence, but honestly it's silly to believe that she feels pain about it really. Dude passive guys you like you get cheated on all the time. Now I am not saying yell or anything like that what I am saying is stop wiping her tears and making excuses. Like why do you so desperately want to be with someone like that? What is the benefit?

That's the thing that you are not accepting. It this isn't about her being weak, hell she is strong enough to break her marriage vows and even blow up her kids lives, then tell you to scratch when you want details, no it's that you are not accepting that your wife doesn't love you. At least not how love is suppose to work in a marriage. She certainly doesn't treat you like someone she loves. She doesn't love you enough to be uncomfortable, yet she expects you the victim to live in misery for the rest of your life. In short as a wife she sucks and she has for a long time. She had an affair for C sake.

Knight's in shining armor usually get killed. The princess ends up with the Prince.

Look it's your life, but your path to happiness is not some women who didn't care enough about you to protect you or her family for that matter from her worst instincts and still continues to do so after watching you suffer for 3 years. I mean damn how cold do you have to be. You need to accept that to your wife treats you and your family are an affectation to her life, but not as a human being who is suffering, not so much.

I am curious how old are your kids?

The final and real problem is you, she has repeatedly shown you who she is, the question is how long will you allow yourself to suffer. When are you going to accept that there is one reason for you pain still, it's not even the affair, the affair is a symptom of a deeper problem. You married an extremely selfish person, this is who she is and you refuse to accept it. If you stay married to her specifically if you give a crap this is what you life is going to be. No message board, counselor or even God can fix it. The good news is she's not the only women alive, hell you would be better alone.

She doesn't care, she hasn't in a long time if she ever did. This is on you now man.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Cheaters don’t want to admit the whole truth (or sometimes any part of it) so they lie. And lie. And lie. She’s managed to stall giving you a timeline for years and now she can say she doesn’t remember (cheaters say that anyway — even if it’s been five minutes). Years to “forget” all those pesky little details that you need and that she doesn’t want you to know. I don’t think your chances are good but maybe she’ll surprise us all. But if she‘s true to cheater form then you obviously need to make a decision about what’s next.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I somewhat disagree with the posters saying to giving her a deadline and that you should take action if she doesn't comply with the deadline. 

That is backwards. 

You should have taken action (ie moved out, filed for divorce etc ) 3.5 years ago and if she wanted to stay married, she should have been the one doing the heavy lifting and putting in the mental anguish. 
You surrendered and allowed yourself to be cuckolded. You are the one putting in the heavy lifting and anguish to stay married, she is simply poo-pooing you so she doesn't have to put in any effort.

This is all crap and BS. How long does it take to write a timeline? 15 minutes? 20 maybe? 

Here is where you have fallen down - You made the decision to stay and keep her around the moment you found out she was cheating. You have been working to keep her and are using this timeline thing as part of your justification to yourself for staying. 

You should have moved out and started dating other women and living your life on your own immediately after DDay and if she wanted to remain married to you, she should have been the one making the reparations and doing the heavy lifting. and you should have ultimately decided if you would R or D AFTER she had met all your demands. 

If you really want this timeline and if it really a critical criteria in you remaining married, then start posting all the stuff you want to get rid of on Craigslist today, start packing the stuff you want to keep tomorrow, See a divorce lawyer and find an apartment on Monday and start moving out as soon as you find an empty apartment and can get the deposits paid and utilities turned on. 

Might as well put up some profiles on Tinder and Match and eHarmony too and start living your own life. 

If she wants to stay together, she can step up to the plate and start by putting in the 15 minutes to write up this stupid timeline. 

If she jumps through all your hoops and hurdles, then you can decide if you want to keep her or not AFTER she has completed all of your homework assignments. 

And if she watches you pack and move and never shows up on your doorstep in the rain with the timeline begging you to take her back, then you have your answer on where she stands.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Yep so much of the suffering around the aftermath of cheating is one party refusing to accept, hell stubbornly railing against the fact that things end. Even when it's more then clear it already has.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I want to make another important point. 

Even if she does jump through all these hoops and does the "Pick me! Dance" for you - you can still decide not to stay. 

You may read this time line and decide to say screw this beeotch I'm outta here. 

That is why you should have had that in your hand before making the decision to stay in the first place. 

You can leave at any time even if she complies with your demands. 

The reason you have allowed this to go on so long is you decided to stay the moment you found out about the cheating. All of this other stuff is your own excuses to justify staying. 

The timeline should have been used as part of your decision tree on whether to stay or not and not as punishment to her or a part of your own justification to stay. 

You played yourself and now here you are over 3 years later still being cucked and still in anguish.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Nucking Futs said:


> You're suggesting someone who's been stuck in rugsweeping for 3.5 years should go to marriagebuilders?


Nothing incredulous, nonsensical, or difficult to understand about that. If you knew the site, you wouldn't have reason to question my suggestion.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

StarFires said:


> If you knew the site, you wouldn't have reason to question my suggestion.



Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, ......... Really??????


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I somewhat disagree with the posters saying to giving her a deadline and that you should take action if she doesn't comply with the deadline.
> 
> That is backwards.
> 
> ...


Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
He should have done those things 3.5 years ago. 
However, he didn't.
Therefore, unless he owns a DeLorean with time travel capability, he has to start sometime.
The only available time is NOW.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I want to make another important point.
> 
> Even if she does jump through all these hoops and does the "Pick me! Dance" for you - you can still decide not to stay.
> 
> ...


I will add to that that you are probably doing this because your subconscious desperately wants to go back to the way it was before, but you are like the parent whose child has died and doesn't change the room for years hoping one day that they will go in there and find the child smiling waiting for them. This is why I say you need courage. You have to summon the courage to accept that this reality is your life from now on. So what is the best situation for you NOW. With this women, who is not the one you thought you had. One who cheats, lies, covers her tracks and YOU can no longer deny knows you are suffering and isn't willing to suffer to help you.

You need to choose, and given the fact that she hasn't changed in 3 years you need to choose assuming she isn't going to change much. The choice is what gives you the best quality of life? Staying or going what will be your best life. And if it is staying you need to learn to live with it. Understand for many people and I personally would say the vast majority staying means a lifetime of some sort of suffering and loss when it comes to their marriage. You are not alone. There is no advice we can give, even your love will not make her change, she can only change herself, when people show you who they are believe them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Tdbo said:


> The only available time is NOW.


That's kinda my point.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

StarFires said:


> Nothing incredulous, nonsensical, or difficult to understand about that. If you knew the site, you wouldn't have reason to question my suggestion.


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## Kamstel2 (Feb 24, 2020)

after this amount of time, it is time to ——— or get off the pot. Give her a deadline and stick to it!
And tell her that there will be a polygraph given after she completes it, and one of the questions will be have you provided all information about the affair and not omitted anything?


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

She's not remorseful and is conning you. There is no real chance for R here. She'll drag it out as long as you let her.


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## Kamstel2 (Feb 24, 2020)

Time to stand up and be strong!
Too bad it upsets her. Next time she says that, ask how she think you feel about her affair and her not providing what you have repeatedly requested


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

GC1234 said:


> If there is a free moment you both have, and if you want a timeline, sit her down, and make her write it, right then and there. You need to be more assertive. If she makes excuses in that moment, then decide to divorce, if it's the timeline that's troubling you. That's it. If she doesn't respect your conditions, I don't think she's worth the time. But you need to practice consistency, without it, (not to be cruel) you'll be a doormat for anyone, even anyone in a future relationship.


Yup. It's never too late. This is clearly haunting you.

Arrange an afternoon or evening with no kids around and nothing else pressing to do. Then sit her down with some blank paper and watch her. If she won't fill it out herself, get her to say it out loud and you'll take the notes.

She knows perfectly well you've been wanting this for three and a half years. She thinks that if she ignores it, you will too. She might have convinced herself that because you don't ask very often, you've stopped caring. Make it clear to her this is gnawing at you, and that you can't live like this any longer.

She's had over three years of you tiptoeing around her feelings on the matter. Time for her to start caring about yours.

If she's reluctant, well, that gives you a LOT of information about how much truth she gave you back then and how much she cares about your feelings now. You wanted a timeline for your reconciliation. She hasn't provided one. Therefore the last three years haven't been reconciliation, have they? They've just been painful limbo. If she still refuses to provide one now, then her refusal can be your last critical piece of information before you proceed to divorce.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

Have you gone on vacation, had days off from the business in 3.5 years? Just schedule a vacation day, a day off, for her to write the timeline. Bring the children somewhere with you, let her do it.

You wrote the reason whey she "dragged" her feet. The written timeline will bring out obvious omissions or outright lies, and on top of that, 3.5 years later, she forgot the lies she told you to begin with. It's hard to remember both the truth and the lies told. You forget the lies and remember the truth. But she does remember lying.

Please stop with the excuses. Procrastination is fine. It happens. But the "its not cut and dry" stuff, come on, many of us had jobs, dead parents, young children. You didn't push it because you are still hemming and hawing over "maybe I'll do it before my birthday" - you are afraid of being confronted in obvious lies, then you'd have to move the line in the sand, you'll feel that your pride will force you to divorce, but you really want to let her off for her sins. But you could do it today if you wanted.

It is alright no matter what happens. You were fine before she cheated, you were fine during (blissfully unaware), and you were fine the past 3.5 years. You can let her get away with it if you want. No one is aware but you. And her. The man in the mirror can be tough to go eye to eye.

Give her a vacation day Monday and let her do it then.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

BarelyStanding said:


> *I know she isn't consciously hurting me*, but she knows she is by her inability to provide a written time-line.


One doesn’t want to believe it, but......

She is an adult, she is not “unable”, she is unwilling.

I noticed you didn’t provide any details to the actual betrayal (no one is forced to, btw), but I suspect you know the “tough love” you’re getting now would be cranked way up. The feelings are still so raw, I think by TAM standards it’s a bad one. 

Not sure what to say, but it’s obvious the tactics of the last 3.5yrs hasn’t worked. Time for a change. I like the idea of using your b-day as a deadline.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Sir, she cheated on your marriage and now she is cheating on your 'reconciliation.' Humans continue to make bad choices when they have no consequences for them. If something is important enough they take care of it--pay bills, eat, sleep, write timelines that are necessary for reconciliation.

What is there about you--what quality, flaw, vulnerability--that allows her to disrespect you repeatedly? Perhaps, you could not live with the timeline and you both realize this subconsciously. If so, just let it go--if letting go is not unacceptable, proceed with what is. Your pain is insidious, eating you alive. I've forgotten if you've had counseling or other necessary actions to aid in this journey. It is one of the most difficult things you will ever do, so do it correctly.

Buy the book--both of you need to read it. I'm thinking she would be quite surprised if you set deadlines, boundaries, rules for a new relationship. Is this what you want? What is holding you back?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Elvis has left the building......


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I haven't left the building. Weekend was busy, and lots of great advice to process. Some of you have mentioned that I haven't provided the backstory, so I will do that now.

June '16, new trainer gets hired at the gym where my wife was also a trainer (I'm sure this story on varying degrees has been told her before). I worked out at this gym as well. The first time I met this guy, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. I can't fully explain the feeling, other than I just knew this guy was trouble. Knew from a hand shake and looking him in the eyes. 

He began texting my wife- nothing flirty, nothing salacious, just running his mouth about how much of a bad-ass he was at training, how he was an awesome dad, etc. She was open with her phone during this time and I saw the texts. I told her I was uncomfortable with the amount of texting going on, but I also assumed that this little ****stick tool of a human would not be stupid enough to try and seduce my wife. I stupidly used the metric of my size (6"2, 230, jacked) vs him (5'5", 150 soaking wet) as a reason as to why he wouldn't risk it. Clearly, I was wrong, as I would come to find out. 

We went away for a wedding weekend in October of '16. Nothing inappropriate was happening at that time. The affair started shortly thereafter, when we returned from our trip.Now, keep in mind, I saw this asshole every day at the gym. He would come talk to me. Would make it a point to find me and try and start up conversations. I was mildly, very mildly, suspicious at this point. I had no evidence of anything other than the gut feeling that something was off. I kept going to the gym, and she kept working there. I reasoned with myself that there wasn't time to have an affair- after all, she was at work. I would go to the gym at different times each day- I had no set schedule. Where are you going to go Eff your AP while at work? Turns out that was a very stupid assumption. I told myself that there was no way she would be having an affair with someone she introduced me too- let alone someone I saw on a near daily basis for months- especially because around November/December, I was starting to suspect something was off and was acting different toward her. 

Our anniversary came and went in November. Great dinner, good time. Little did I know that she was already deep in to the affair by this point. We shared Thanksgiving, and Christmas, and New Year's together, with family, as we always do. I didn't suspect a thing, because other than the usual nagging that she did, she did not change her behavior at all. Not one bit. Things continued on until I confronted her on 2/15/2017...I had spent the better part of Valentine's Day cracking her phone (she changed her password, saying she didn't want our kids to look at the texts she got. This was a month prior, but the password change is what really set off alarm bells for me).

I didn't find much on the phone, until I came across a contact labeled "MBS". "MBS" was the shortened version of our gym name. It should have a local area code number, correct? Wrong. It was a contact number out of Maryland, and yup, you guessed it...the dude was from Maryland. I found one text, not deleted, that simply said "Hey babe". That was all I needed to know. I contacted our service provider, made up some **** about our daughter texting a guy we were not comfortable with, and got them to send me the text message logs for her number. Thousands of texts exchanged over a 4-5 month period. I was able to recover some, not all of their texts. They spoke in code, abbreviating everything...IMY, IWTRYHC (I want to ride your hard co*k), etc. I deciphered the code after DDay with her assistance. They would leave each other post it notes in his office professing their feelings for each other. 

Thus, I confronted on 2/15 (as an aside, Vday ruined, my Bday ruined, Anniversary ruined, daughter's birthday ruined, Thanksgiving ruined, and Christmas and New Year's ruined. Basically all the major holidays ruined by the taint of her affair). She admitted that she was having an affair. On that initial day, she admitted to banging him 2x (with protection, of course). That was all she would admit too at the time. 

I knew there was more to the story, so I pried and dug deeper. I confronted her on inconsistencies. This goes on for a month or so, then DDay 2. On March 15, 2017, after I threaten to kick her out, and had actually packed her **** and told her to go stay with her mom, she then proceeds to tell me that they had sex at least 8 times (2x he couldn't get it up- claims that was a recurring problem. I call BS.). They banged in our condo we own (her idea), she performed oral on him (hasn't done that for me in nearly 20 years, citing CSA as the reason), they banged in his car, our car, outside in public parks...anywhere they could. She would lie about her work schedule to leave the gym to go on "trail runs" (that was there code word) with him to go have sex. All for sex, as she claims, that wasn't that good. He couldn't make her orgasm except for twice (sounds like the standard "I only had two beers ossifer" drunk crap, I know). 

She tells me all this...and this is after I had initially asked for a time line. I asked for that on Dday, if my memory serves me- usually it doesn't now- so who knows when I actually asked for it. Instead of writing one out, she proceeded to fill in some blanks. Namely; they had sex at least 8 times; he only wore a condom 2x (and supposedly couldn't get it up when using one), she blew him; she banged him in our condo; etc. She had cybersex with him while I was at home for a mutual masturbation session. She was on her knees begging me not to kick her out- while this conversation was going on, I had to go grab one of the kids from school, so I had to put on that happy face in front of others and our child.

She sent him a NC text. There has been zero communication sense then, from what I can tell. To be honest, I don't have the energy to play detective forever, and I really don't care at this point if she cheats again- I would just dump her and move on. 

I am having an extremely hard time believing the details, especially because she hasn't provided the timeline. Also, she alleges, and I don't believe for a second, that no pictures were exchanged. You mean to tell me that two grown adults having an affair in this day and age, knowing how to delete messages and pictures, did not exchange ANY salacious pics? Come on. There was a FaceTime call on the day that she "masturbated" with him...and she expects me to believe it was about something else. 

In addition, our youngest was at daycare at the gym. She was around this....thing numerous times. He interacted with her. My wife and the Asshole would try and set up double dates between our families- for the obvious reason of covering what was going on. I actually met his wife at a gym Xmas party- and she had the 1000 yard stare. I knew, right then and there, that he had cheated on her before. Turns out, I was right. This asshole had to uproot his family from Maryland and move down here because he had already helped destroy another marriage. The kicker? When I talked to his wife ( I did that on Dday, blew that **** right the **** up), she proceeded to tell me that. She told me that she suspected that something was going on but that she didn't have the energy or willpower to deal with it, so she stayed silent. She almost caught them once, as a result of him failing to put the back seat up after they had sex- being the upstanding citizen he is, he blamed his teenage daughter, and the wife bought it. 

I hope this makes some sense and sheds some light on the backstory. I hope it is not a jumbled mess of words. I know, deep down, that she does not want to complete the timeline as requested because at 3.5 years out....she isn't going to remember all the lies she told me. Unfortunately for her, my memory over conversations we've had is seared into my soul forever. 

Yes, I think this story is pretty bad- or tame- I guess, depending on your point of view based on other stories of cheating. Any input on where this falls on the scale would be welcome. 

To those of you responding, I sincerely appreciate you taking time out of your day to help a stranger. I am digesting every word written to help me move forward and out of this nightmare of a life.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Honestly, I wouldn't need much of a timeline. I'd just tell her to leave.

Anyone that can be that deceptive, can do it again. And you might never even know.

I also find it amazing how great the "gut" is as a 6th sense. When your gut feels something is off about a guy, or about a situation, it's accurate 95% of the time. Truly a gift we humans have that isn't talked about enough.

You are 3.5 years out - which is right about when I was feeling healthy about our relationship. But my wife's A was only an emotional one with no sex. This one is the opposite, seems like it was sexual but not emotional. Either way sucks, but man, I don't know if I could ever get past the unprotected sex part.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

BarelyStanding said:


> Yes, I think this story is pretty bad- or tame- I guess, depending on your point of view based on other stories of cheating. Any input on where this falls on the scale would be welcome.


I wouldn't care to try to rate your pain that way. I'll tell you right now though that you are no where near where you should be in healing. Had you divorced immediately you'd probably be happily re-married by now and she'd be the annoying ex you only have to deal with at the kid exchange. Had she honestly and earnestly engaged in reconciliation with you from the get go you likely wouldn't be thinking of it that often and the pain would be minimal. 

I'd suggest you bring the hammer on that time line. Tell her she's got 48 hours (or whatever deadline you like) to hand over the complete timeline, after which you'll schedule the polygraph to confirm it is true _and complete_, or you will file for divorce. No argument, no discussion. Take control. Right now you've been in infidelity for 3.5 years, it's time to get out of it one way or another.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

BarelyStanding said:


> I haven't left the building. Weekend was busy, and lots of great advice to process. Some of you have mentioned that I haven't provided the backstory, so I will do that now.
> 
> June '16, new trainer gets hired at the gym where my wife was also a trainer (I'm sure this story on varying degrees has been told her before). I worked out at this gym as well. The first time I met this guy, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. I can't fully explain the feeling, other than I just knew this guy was trouble. Knew from a hand shake and looking him in the eyes.
> 
> ...


Brother, you sound like a smart guy, so I have to ask, why oh why have you allowed this in your life?

You are a good looking fit guy and you put up with this? Why? There were resources on the internet in 2017, you knew what a time line was.

What are you doing, and why are you doing it?

For 3.5 years you have rug swept the affair, and I just don't get it. You don't sound weak but you seem to have acted weak.

If you want to try and save this, the you are going to have to get real. Time line, poly graph, consequences, for me I would not do it, I would just divorce and find a new wife.

I just don't understand a smart sounding guy like you putting up with this in your life. Why man????


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## scaredlion (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm older and come from the old school of dealing with things of this nature. Please tell me you ran this POS clean out of the state. Just to screw with him I would offer to help his wife get a divorce and take him to the cleaners. I do wish you well.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Damn, that's one hell of a backstory. I would not have waited 3.5 years for her timeline. Is she really remorseful for her actions? I don't know. Have you gone to couples counseling? Is she willing to go? I also feel bad for the guys wife. Do you even want to work it out? I probably wouldn't, but that's up to you.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Never withhold. Once the affair is known, confess, and don’t withhold any answer. Had one fool who would not give a timeline. She held back until he could take no more. The gamble cost as it was like a second Dday. Had she done this earlier there may have been a chance. His divorce filing said it all.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

This went on how many months and they only had sex 8 times. That’s right out of the cheaters hand book. I would bet a thousand dollars it was closer to eighty than eight. You’ve been completely conned.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw, how did she go no contact if they worked together?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> That’s right out of the cheaters hand book. I would bet a thousand dollars it was closer to eighty than eight. You’ve been completely conned.


CHB, chapter 6. "Spin" toward minimized involvement.

From my standpoint, I wouldn't be waiting for any timeline, or for anything else. In fact, for me, it was only 1-1/2 years, and it should have been 1-1/2 hours. You have been completely ferhoodled by a person who has no respect for you, no respect for God, no respect for morality. If it were me, in your shoes, I would have been completely done with her long before now.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

He said it started after their October trip - he said maybe November. And it ended in early February when he caught it. So that's maybe 3 full months? Given they had to scheme and hide what they were doing, I can see it being much closer to 8 than 80. But you know it's not 8. It's always a higher number than they say.

My bet - something like 15 times. Double digits sounds way worse, so she kept it just under that to make it sound better.

Regardless, if he thinks all these holidays and birthday are ruined, why the F do you stay married?? Better to replace all that negative with new memories with someone else.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

This late? Perfect opportunity to say she can’t remember now because she’s tried to put it in the past, blah, blah, blah. Then what?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Openminded said:


> This late? Perfect opportunity to say she can’t remember now because she’s tried to put it in the past, blah, blah, blah. Then what?


Just another good reason to file for divorce. He should have already done that...


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

BarelyStanding said:


> Yes, I think this story is pretty bad- or tame- I guess, depending on your point of view based on other stories of cheating. Any input on where this falls on the scale would be welcome.
> 
> To those of you responding, I sincerely appreciate you taking time out of your day to help a stranger. I am digesting every word written to help me move forward and out of this nightmare of a life.


As far as scale, very average. I give it a 5. Very typical. The stuff she did that is worse than usual is bringing him around you (beyond what you normally would), letting you be "friends" with him, using your car, using your condo. These to me show a sign of complete resentment and/or anger from her toward you, a complete disrespect, wanting to flaunt it in your face. Very few cheaters use "codes" similar to your wife and her lover.

I wish I could trust your perception when you post about it, but I can't. It seems to me you say one thing, then do another. You are not strong about the way you handle it. Cheaters are similar to bratty children, placating them and loving them too much not to give strong consequences when needed only hurts both them and you. In cheating, mostly you. It seems you are in that position, in my opinion.

When I consider scale, the most important aspect of the affair is the aftermath. In my opinion, most marriages with infidelity don't fail because of the affair itself, but because of the continued lying, deception, and disrespect after the affair. Your marriage continues only because you don't pay too much attention to a cheating wife who refuses to tell the truth. You suffer, maybe for the children. If so, fine. If you believe you are staying because you have a remorseful wife you love, you are misguided. Those are my values, I would respect you if you stayed for the children, not if you are afraid to lose your unremorseful wife.

You don't say much about the aftermath. Did she quit her job? Did he? Does the owner of the gym allow married trainers have affairs? Did she tell her boss what happened? Did she get tested for STDs and give you the results? Did she do anything other than just supposedly having sex with her?

DID SHE GIVE YOU A TIMELINE YET? You had time to write several times. Why doesn't she have time? You say she was begging you not for you to give her the boot, but she wouldn't give you a timeline with that the marriage on the line, after putting the line on the marriag over her affair? She rolled the dice on the affair, now she is rolling the dice on timeline? How could I believe the perception that she was begging to stay in the marriage given that?

She had time to have an affair, spend how many hours on texts (thousands of texts over several months), had time to figure up cheating codes had time to have sex in your car, in your condo, at public places - all in just a few months - yet she is too busy to write a timeline. And you post that as an excuse?

Something does not compute.

PS, I agree with others, probably closer to 80 rather than 8. I would guess some multiple of times she was present with him, e.g., if she saw him Monday through Friday, probably sex was occurring 3-5 times Monday through Friday. It is very difficult to not have sex in a sexual affair when the lovers are both present. It didn't seem you loved the other man.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Openminded said:


> This late? Perfect opportunity to say she can’t remember now because she’s tried to put it in the past, blah, blah, blah. Then what?


Then you tell her there will be a polygraph question about whether she was telling the truth when she said she can't remember, see if that jogs her memory. Present this to her as complete truth or divorce, no other option.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

You realize this isn't about her but you, correct?

The reason she hasn't done the time line is because she knew you weren't going to do jack ****. She knew you weren't going to leave her either.

She also knew, if by chance you found out about the A, that you wouldn't leave her as well so why not have some fun.

The thing that stands out in your posts is the lack of ANGER.

Angry at her but more importantly anger at yourself for ALLOWING this to go on for 3.5 yrs.

2 X 4
How can you expect her to be honest with you when you aren't being honest with yourself?

This wife of yours BLEW UP your marriage and your family. Don't you think it's about time you got angry about this? And yes you may come back here saying you were (and have been) angry but not enough to do ANYTHING.....and for 3.5 yrs???

"Life got in the way"?

As others have pointed out this is the lie you tell yourself.

You want this nightmare you're living in to start to change?

First step is to stop LYING to yourself!!

You've allowed her to stonewall you for 3.5 yrs. No need to give her anymore time.

Go see an attorney.
File the paperwork for divorce. It doesn't mean you'll actually Divorce her but she'll see you're NOT ****ing around anymore.

On a weekend make sure the kids are away for the day. Hand her the divorce papers and tell her the timeline WILL be done TODAY.

Also tell her that you've scheduled a polygraph and she'll be taking this the following week. ACTUALLY SCHEDULE IT and go through with it to verify details of the timeline.

Even if she starts spilling more info MAKE HER TAKE THE DAMN POLYGRAPH!!

More than likely the reason you don't want her to do the timeline (or take a polygraph) is you know there's more to all of this affair and confirming it will now force YOU to take action....something you obviously do NOT want to do....and thus why you live in denial and have lied to yourself for 3.5 yrs.

Have you gone and got yourself tested for STD? There's no way in hell that they had protected sex every single time. You also say this scumbag is a POS ***** who's done this before and who's to say he wasn't banging other members at the gym as well while with your wife as well.

Go read your post about the specifics of the affair (what you know about) and hopefully it will spark some damn anger in you to value yourself and your kids enough to take some action.

Would you allow some stranger to come into your home and screw your wife and destroy your kids world? HELL NO!!

Well this is EXACTLY what your wife has done and once the jig was up instead of doing whatever she needed to do to help you heal she hasn't done ANYTHING and what's sad is you allowed her to do this.

How can you expect ANYONE (let alone your wife) to value you when your actions (or in this case) NONaction(s) show that you don't value yourself?

I know you don't want to hear the truth (because what you already know has devastated you) but my friend knowing the truth will set you FREE!!

Just like everything else in life, it starts with making a choice, and then make a plan, and despite being afraid of what lays ahead of you take the first step, and then the second step etc etc.

You're stronger than you think.
You can handle this.
Do it for your kids!!

CARPE DIEM!!

You can NOT change what you refuse to confront!!

Isn't it about time you end this nightmare you've been in for 3.5 yrs (or longer)?

Yes it might lead to divorcing but the worse outcome is to continue on doing NOTHING and being a slave to this nightmare that you yourself are allowing to happen by sleepwalking through your life and living in denial.

STOP LYING TO YOURSELF AND WAKE UP!!

I know these words hurt to hear but you need to hear it. That is if you truly want this nightmare to end.

Again it all starts with choice.

Choose wisely.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sideways said:


> You realize this isn't about her but you, correct?
> 
> The reason she hasn't done the time line is because she knew you weren't going to do jack ****. She knew you weren't going to leave her either.
> 
> ...


Wow, awesome post. Not too harsh, and completely true in every word.

I think the truth will run him off though, which I hate. He is in pain and does not want the pill that will make him stop hurting...


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Wow, awesome post. Not too harsh, and completely true in every word.
> 
> I think the truth will run him off though, which I hate. He is in pain and does not want the pill that will make him stop hurting...


No, I think this one is tougher. I don't post on a cwi thread if I don't think the bs is tough enough to eventually be pushed into taking action. I hope I'm not wrong.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BarelyStanding said:


> I haven't left the building. Weekend was busy, and lots of great advice to process. Some of you have mentioned that I haven't provided the backstory, so I will do that now.
> 
> June '16, new trainer gets hired at the gym where my wife was also a trainer (I'm sure this story on varying degrees has been told her before). I worked out at this gym as well. The first time I met this guy, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. I can't fully explain the feeling, other than I just knew this guy was trouble. Knew from a hand shake and looking him in the eyes.
> 
> ...


That is a lot of info and probably already more of a timeline and confession than most BS’s get even if you do only know the tip of the iceberg (and assume you only know the tip of the iceberg)

You know that she had a full blown affair with someone she had just recently met and she went through pretty great lengths to hide it from you and only coughed up trickle truths as you peeled back one layer after another. 

.......yet here you are. 

I have to ask - what benefit will this timeline provide you at this point? 

If you find out they were having orgies with barnyard animals on Christmas Eve is it going to matter? Will it change anything for you at this point? 

You know they had a full blown, ongoing love affair and wild monkey sex on an ongoing basis and would not have stopped if they hadn’t gotten busted. 

She rugswept, trickle truthed, gaslighted and outright lied this long, What makes you think she is suddenly going to suddenly confess all now???

All she has to do now is say she doesn’t remember how and when and where all they got it on. She can just say it’s water under the bridge and doesn’t matter now. 

You’ve already made the decision to stay and accept it because there you are. 

If you pack up now and get your own place and hook up with some young honey, then that is your choice. 

I don’t see the relevance of torturing yourself and going through the anguish of trying to squeeze this mythical timeline out of her now. What benefit is it going to achieve at this point?

If you want to stay - stay. 

If you want to pack up and go - go. 

Why are you chasing this particular windmill at this particular time?


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I really appreciate all the advice. Yes, it's hard to read. It's hard to think that I have let this devolve into something I ruminate on constantly to the detriment of my job and family.

To answer the questions about the post affair-

On DDay, I went nuclear. Literally. After she admitted the affair, I grabbed a gun, called the **** on the phone, he denied, and he then heard me rack a round in a rifle ( I am not proud that I had the intention I did). I proceeded to drive to the gym to confront him. Maybe kill him- I don't know. Either way, being the chicken *** he is, he bailed on the gym and disappeared for a few days. however, based on my past profession, I knew where he lived. I knew, and still know, everything about him. I do not pain shop. I did realize that any overt action on my part would have lasting consequences for my family, and because of my previous profession, I would have been charged more aggressively, and I will leave it at that.

She immediately sent a NC text. He pushed all the blame on her (you've heard it all before). She quit the gym the next day and began working at our business (which, by the way, we had just closed on. Hindsight 20/20 and all that). I called his wife immediately (my wife was upset at the time that I did, I told her to **** right off), we compared notes etc. I then called her after the second DDay after I learned more information. As to him? He's now divorced, from what I can tell. Living in a small ****ty apartment working a ****ty job.

To my knowledge, there has been no contact. He did reach out one time, months later, which she showed me. She wanted to let me decide how to respond, if at all. I mailed him a target superimposed on his head and told him in no uncertain terms that any future communication would be his end.

My problem is I have told myself that I will get the timeline eventually. Eventually turned in to years, and here we are. I know I need to sack up and just give an ultimatum. If I didn't have kids, I would have. I am absolutely TERRIFIED of screwing my children up. They have no idea what happened, and wouldn't suspect a thing. I internalize all of this, and have told only one person. I'm pretty sure I have PISD, or PTSD from this- can't sleep, can't focus, can't remember ****; I feel like I have Alzheimer's at 41.

I am absolutely afraid of making the change I need to to get past this, and I know it. I understand what I am being told here, and I agree with all of it- I am lacking the courage to act, and I know I must find it.

Thank you again to all who are taking time to help me through this; it really does mean more than you'll know.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I'm dying on this hill because this is owed to me. Plus, hard evidence is never a bad thing in a divorce proceeding. I have become laser focused on getting this from her. If she pulls the I can't remember **** card, then great. I know what direction I need to go, and I WILL move in that direction regardless if she doesn't provide it. Maybe she does provide the timeline, and it is worse than what she told me, in which case I can leave at that point. She should have done this years ago, before causing me additional pain, but she didn't. 

I know full well that I will be reopening the wounds- but since I don't have this to being with, they never really had a chance to heal. I already told her that when it is done (she's done about 3 pages of word vomit so far- I checked), I will be going camping for a week to clear my head, and I will then decide what direction I want to take from there.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

BarelyStanding said:


> I'm dying on this hill because this is owed to me. Plus, hard evidence is never a bad thing in a divorce proceeding. I have become laser focused on getting this from her. If she pulls the I can't remember **** card, then great.


Revisit post number 73.



BarelyStanding said:


> I know what direction I need to go, and I WILL move in that direction regardless if she doesn't provide it. Maybe she does provide the timeline, and it is worse than what she told me, in which case I can leave at that point. She should have done this years ago, before causing me additional pain, but she didn't.
> 
> I know full well that I will be reopening the wounds- but since I don't have this to being with, they never really had a chance to heal. I already told her that when it is done (she's done about 3 pages of word vomit so far- I checked), I will be going camping for a week to clear my head, and I will then decide what direction I want to take from there.


Three pages of word vomit is a good sign.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

It's perfectly reasonable to forgive her as well as love her - but divorce her. There's no inconsistency there.

She destroyed your marriage as well as the girl you married. And you've been grieving your losses for over 3.5 years. It's 100% up to you to decide whether to spend the rest of your life with this 'new' person and a 'new' marriage.

PTSD hits people differently and at different times and in different cycles.

Sometimes it takes years to come out of denial (see PTSD symptoms). Part of denial is to rug sweep (suck it up and pretend it didn't happen or that it didn't totally cripple you). 

Talk to your doctor about getting help sleeping and dealing with anxiety/anger/depression etc (even if only for 1 week to break the constant exhausting downward cycle). 

Kids have a way of knowing/finding out things. Divorce is a perfectly acceptible decision. You owe it to your kids to live your best life and in turn be the best father.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

It is pretty common for the betrayed male to run after the other man. Clearly you showed strength in aiming to claim your wife.

However, it seems you stopped there, and never made your wife accountable. You chased away the fox but the hen was allowed to keep sitting there.

Sounds like you have a good plan now. You KNOW this is eating you alive, and this 3.5 years was mostly a wasted time of non-healing. You know that now and that is good. Make her finish the word vomit right now, take it with you and read it when you are camping. 

I like this plan - because you can't think clearly when your wife is around, perhaps seducing you, distracting you, etc.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Rather than wasting time on the other man, your 100% focus should have been on your wife. He just accepted what she so freely offered. He didn’t steal it — she gave it. Happily. And would have happily continued. But what she wouldn’t do is give her husband, who offered her another chance, the timeline she knew he needed. And — most important — she STILL HASN‘T 3.5 years later. What does that sound like to you?

Want to know why many people stay with a cheater? Fear of the unknown. They’re afraid to leave because they don’t know what their life will be like if they walk away from everything that‘s familiar. So they rug sweep. I lived that life for a very long time. Far longer than I should have. But — you know — fear. It can keep you in place.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I will ask one more time. With that story and that wife, why would you logically think it's going to get better? Seems like she doesn't care and hasn't for a while. She is not the path for happiness for you. Never gonna be.

By the way your reaction was great except you kept the key player the one who betrayed you the most around. Not sure she even faced any consequences at all. Let's go back to your fist post. When you the victim in all this asked for some help for the pain and suffering that she is directly responsible for her response was it's too hard because "it makes her think about the affair, and the affair makes her sick". I mean does she care about you at all? It's ain't gonna get better.

As far as your kids you don't think your kids see you suffering? What are you teaching them. One day they will find out anyway, depending on their ages you can use it to teach them to never let anyone abuse you. They will get over it, and be fine. Look leaving a cheater is one of the hardest things anyone ever has to do but staying is going to kill you. Literally you will end up in a early grave. Years and years of suffering does that to you. What will you kids have then? Or even now how much emotion is spent on this. You don't think that has affected their lives?

Again what exactly has your wife the real villain in this story done to help you? I mean what consequences did you hand her may I ask? I mean you threatened to kill the OM more then once. But your wife, you know the one who made vows to you what was her consequence. (not saying threaten her life
by the way.) Like the other poster above said, the guy you threatened to kill didn't take her, she willingly gave herself to him.

Speaking of that why would you think this is your wife's first rodeo. She jumped into this one pretty quick and even put in in your face. All it took was some flirting. That was pretty brazen first affair. Not a good sign.

You fall into the trap that SO MANY men who get cheated on fall into. You idolize and possibly infantilize your wife. You see her with blinders on. She knows that and took advantage of it probably still does. I would bet there is more.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

We have seen this too many times. Even if you get all the answers it's not going to fix it, but this is what you are mistakenly hoping for I'm sure. Unfortunately though you will still have the question of how could she do this to you. That isn't going to go away. At the end you will have accept the fact that she did it because she wanted to, but even that comes with questions. How could she do that to someone she claimed to love? 

I have posted on this board for years now and read a lot of stories. Here is the cold hard truth. There is no such thing as love without loyalty PERIOD. We can all pretend that it's not true but loyalty is a very basic element of love. This right her is the fact you are desperately trying to avoid by searching here and there for something so you won't have to face it. I get it, that **** is SO PAINFUL but she just doesn't love you dude. At least not like a wife is supposed to love a husband. Not like you love her, she probably isn't capable of that kind of love.

After you accept that then comes the real question. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who showed you such disregard. You are headed in this direction, you will get there, and I suspect this is going to end up being too much for you. You should just cut to the chase and not waste another 2 to 3 years. 

Don't waste your life on someone who doesn't love you. At least if you are alone you have a chance.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Dude your 6’2” , jacked , and obviously intelligent. I’d say you will have your pick of partners and your kids will learn what a good relationship looks like in the end. Yes the transition will be tough but your racking your brain pretty hard as is. Your smart enough to know which direction provides relief.

I think you haven’t done a bad job of it.... it is just that you let it drag on way too long to your own detriment.

I would use the polygraph threat ..... that way at least you know she will give it a real try on your timeline


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## Buffer (Dec 17, 2019)

brother, if you feel you need a time line to the best of her memory, then that is what you need. She is obviously reluctant, to open old wounds, upset the apple cart, relive the hurt that she has caused. But it is your recovery, not hers.
If you ask for D as a result of her inaction or half a$$ed action then it is on her as you can’t move fwd with this not for filled. 
One day at a time
Buffer


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Even if you get all the answers it's not going to fix it, but this is what you are mistakenly hoping for I'm sure.


Abandon that hope. They don't call it "hopium" for nothing.

You have every answer there is. She does not love you, does not respect you, and she has an itching puss. She is morally-bankrupt, a completely unfit mother for your children.
Act upon that.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Man, there's a lot of negativity going on here. I'm apparently not seeing what you guys are seeing. I'm seeing a guy who wants R and is finally facing up to the fact that the way he's been going about it is not working, so he's changing that. I'm not big on second chances for cheaters either, but I think we need to be supporting the stated goals of the OP rather than pushing our own agenda. That being said, his stated goal is to get the information he wants to be comfortable with the decision to continue start reconciliation or move to divorce, and the timeline and polygraph should be enough to get him there. So how about we dispense with calling him out for not doing what you want him to do and help him to meet his goals? 

BarelyStanding, you said last night that so far she had word vomited three pages of time line. That doesn't sound like she's holding back to me. What's your take on that? Also, have you started looking for a polygraph examiner yet? I know you're planning on camping for a week to contemplate it when she's done, but you might want to verify it's true first.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Nucking Futs said:


> BarelyStanding, you said last night that so far she had word vomited three pages of time line. That doesn't sound like she's holding back to me. What's your take on that? Also, have you started looking for a polygraph examiner yet? I know you're planning on camping for a week to contemplate it when she's done, but you might want to verify it's true first.


But is it 3 pages of her agenda? Is it 3 pages of more rugsweeping and minimizing and gaslighting? If she is writing it, then it is HER platform and her narrative. 

Polygraph??

So now it’s on him to confirm and verify her story? It’s on him to determine if they really met in the back of the park for a blow job on October 22 or was it really a quickie in back parking lot if the gym on Nov 1st? 

What if the polygraph shows there was no deception on the October 22 blow job but there was deception on the November quickie? What then? What’s the next step - sodium pentathol?? 

This is putting the onus on him. This is making him responsible for being the perfect interrogator and making him responsible verifying that the forced confession is completely accurate and confirming whether she spit or swallowed at the park on October 22nd .

How many hoops and hurdles does he need to jump through before he gets his Vagina Policeman’s badge?


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Dude, everyone is being a bit hard on you......sorry for that....but you kind of deserve it.....kinda.

Its interesting how a guys radar works. My xw of 30 years started an affair with a good friend of mine. They started a little side job company together, were working with each other every day and it took me a year to find out they had an affair! How I found out was two basic little moves he made/said that set my radar off. On here I say a guys radar is running 99% correct.

What is happening to you is, those of us who have been where you are, are really cheering for you, we want to help but we see you dragging your feet and it frustrates us! We think that if we yell loud enough we can change YOU! But we cant. 

You deserve every right to choose your life. You want to stay with her? Get that, I was wanting the return of my marriage badly for I'd say 9 months, then two years before I can honestly say I was completely done. You, by your actions havent started your time line yet, it set at pause for last 3.5 years. If you divorce, nothing says that you cant get back together. (This reasoning is what caused me to initially work toward a D, I didnt want it, I wanted her, but I knew I could still have her if I wanted, and it was to my advantage to get the divorce ASAP. Took just over 90 days) and if you do it would have to be better.....wouldnt it?

Do us and you a favor. Decide what you want. Dont puss out by delaying anything. Be a man, make a decision, act and then deal with what comes later. You are not a failure, she is the one that cheated its 100% on her, but it is becoming more about you and what you want and do. Dont fail. Decide. Do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> I'm dying on this hill because this is owed to me. Plus, hard evidence is never a bad thing in a divorce proceeding. I have become laser focused on getting this from her. If she pulls the I can't remember **** card, then great. I know what direction I need to go, and I WILL move in that direction regardless if she doesn't provide it. Maybe she does provide the timeline, and it is worse than what she told me, in which case I can leave at that point. She should have done this years ago, before causing me additional pain, but she didn't.
> 
> I know full well that I will be reopening the wounds- but since I don't have this to being with, they never really had a chance to heal. I already told her that when it is done (she's done about 3 pages of word vomit so far- I checked), I will be going camping for a week to clear my head, and I will then decide what direction I want to take from there.


All you need to know is she crushed you with the affair and then let you suffer for 3 and a half years. I mean it's your life but you should at least ask yourself is this the person you want to give the primary responsibility for your emotional health?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> But is it 3 pages of her agenda? Is it 3 pages of more rugsweeping and minimizing and gaslighting? If she is writing it, then it is HER platform and her narrative.
> 
> Polygraph??
> 
> ...


Are you here to help people, or are you here to push your own agenda? 

The polygraph is not used to verify every individual instance. You don't go down the time line and say "Were you telling the truth when you said you performed oral sex on your AP for three minutes and eleven seconds on the third of April at 8:03 pm?" No, you get the time line, just before being hooked up to the machine the examiner will go over the time line with the wayward, will discuss what they mean by true and complete, and then during the examination the question the polygraph examiner asks is "Is the time line we went over true and complete?" One question to verify veracity for all of it. If the wayward answers yes, and the polygraph says lie, divorce. If the wayward says no, divorce. The only way you move forward to R is if the polygraph confirms the time line is both complete and true. And the wayward needs to know while writing the time line that this is going to be the process, so they know to make it true and complete.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Nucking Futs said:


> Are you here to help people, or are you here to push your own agenda?
> 
> The polygraph is not used to verify every individual instance. You don't go down the time line and say "Were you telling the truth when you said you performed oral sex on your AP for three minutes and eleven seconds on the third of April at 8:03 pm?" No, you get the time line, just before being hooked up to the machine the examiner will go over the time line with the wayward, will discuss what they mean by true and complete, and then during the examination the question the polygraph examiner asks is "Is the time line we went over true and complete?" One question to verify veracity for all of it. If the wayward answers yes, and the polygraph says lie, divorce. If the wayward says no, divorce. The only way you move forward to R is if the polygraph confirms the time line is both complete and true. And the wayward needs to know while writing the time line that this is going to be the process, so they know to make it true and complete.


I would get a polygraph because I would be very doubtful that this is her only affair. She shows all the signs.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I would get a polygraph because I would be very doubtful that this is her only affair. She shows all the signs.


Yeah, no ****. That definitely needs to be a polygraph question.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BarelyStanding said:


> . Eventually turned in to years, and here we are. I know I need to sack up and just give an ultimatum. If I didn't have kids, I would have. I am absolutely TERRIFIED of screwing my children up. They have no idea what happened, and wouldn't suspect a thing.


Let's shift gears a bit and talk about the kids. You almost make it seem like the fact there are children makes it an automatic assumption that you have to sit and eat the turd sandwich and accept the unacceptable. 

We all have kids and we have all probably let ourselves sit and broil in bad situations that we would not have had there not been children involved. We all get that children in the picture raises the stakes. There have been times that I myself would have been long gone had there not been minor children in the house so I get it. 

However there are some things we all need to challenge the conventional narrative and our own beliefs in regards to the impact to children. 

To put it bluntly, children are harmed by abuse, neglect, abandonment and living in an environment of chaos, chronic hostility/resentment/violence, alcoholism/drug addiction etc. Those things clearly harm children. 

What we need to challenge ourselves with is are children harmed by living in a loving, supportive environment with two loving and supportive parents who happen to live in two different houses???

If you and your WW split, will either of you become abusive or neglectful or abandon the children? Will either of you become a drunk and come home and beat them? Will you stop supporting them and stop feeding them and providing for them because you are in a different house? Will you stop loving them and taking care of them because you are no longer married to their mother? 

I also question the wisdom of trying to portray that everything is rainbows and unicorns to the children at all times.

Life is complex and there are ups and downs and a family goes through many challenges over the course of time. 

The kids obviously do not need to know that Mommy gave Buttcheese a blow job and swallowed in the car at the park on October 22nd after not blowing Daddy for 20 years. But it is a pretty important life-lesson to know that selfish actions can have a big negative impact and that there are certain things you simply can't do without repercussion. 

Do you want your son(s) growing up thinking that if their wife gets it on with some dude at work, that he must just suck it up and take it and live with the pain and torment forever because......well, that's just what a husband and father does. That is the lesson you are teaching him. 

And do you want your daughter(s) growing up thinking that they can just screw and blow some guy at the gym because he winks at them and makes her jay-jay tingle and that her husband is supposed to just accept it because she has the right to screw and blow whoever she wants and that she entitled to have sex with whoever she wants and her husband will have to continue to support her and make sure she doesn't experience any discomfort or negative repercussions from it. That is the life-lesson you are teaching her. 

Our actions have repercussions. We do not have to accept unacceptable treatment. And we should not expect people to simply eat our turd sandwich and accept our bad treatment of them and not be held accountable. Children should not be sheltered from those basic tenets of life. 

Don't use your children as your excuse to emasculate yourself and eat the turd sandwich, Do not put the blame on them for you using them to martyr yourself or use them to blame your misery and torment. That is an unfair burden on them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Nucking Futs said:


> Are you here to help people, or are you here to push your own agenda?
> 
> The polygraph is not used to verify every individual instance. You don't go down the time line and say "Were you telling the truth when you said you performed oral sex on your AP for three minutes and eleven seconds on the third of April at 8:03 pm?" No, you get the time line, just before being hooked up to the machine the examiner will go over the time line with the wayward, will discuss what they mean by true and complete, and then during the examination the question the polygraph examiner asks is "Is the time line we went over true and complete?" One question to verify veracity for all of it. If the wayward answers yes, and the polygraph says lie, divorce. If the wayward says no, divorce. The only way you move forward to R is if the polygraph confirms the time line is both complete and true. And the wayward needs to know while writing the time line that this is going to be the process, so they know to make it true and complete.


Sounds to me that is your agenda. You are the one laying out a play-by-play game plan here. I am not.

I am asking a broader question here for the OP to determine himself.

That broader question is does he want to be the Vagina Police and if he has to drag her into a polygraph examiners office and pay however much it costs to determine if she swallowed from a BJ in the park on the 22nd vs a quickie in a parking lot on the 1st three and a half years after the fact - is it worth it?

Perhaps to him the answer is yes and that is what he needs to move forward either way. If that is what he needs to make a decision at this point and to move forward either way, so be it. It's not my wife or my marriage or my cross to bear. 

But sometimes one needs to step back and look at the bigger picture and ask if this is really where you want to be when Jesus comes back. 

I posed questions for the OP to consider. Not providing a game plan or script to follow.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Sounds to me that is your agenda. You are the one laying out a play-by-play game plan here. I am not.
> 
> I am asking a broader question here for the OP to determine himself.
> 
> ...


Nevermind, it's turning into a thread jack.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I would get a polygraph because I would be very doubtful that this is her only affair. She shows all the signs.


I agree that it is probably not her first rodeo. 

May not have been her last either.

In general I am not big on polygraphs for situations like these. We already know she's a cheater and a liar and if you have to go through that much trouble to prove what you already know...…… well then, that just comes down to trying to prove to the liar that they are lying.

If the BS has to force the polygraph then what's the real point??

If anyone should be asking for and paying for a polygraph it is the WS if they are actually telling the truth and the BS isn't believing them.

I guess in this instance a poly may come in handy if she has a bunch of other stuff that he isn't even suspicious of yet and doesn't have a clue about. If the first question out of the examiner's mouth is "have you got it on with anyone beside Gym Boi?" and that answer helps the OP move forward either way, then I suppose it may have some merit.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I went back and read all of @BarelyStanding posts. I have changed my stance a little bit from when I first read this thread...….. a little bit. 

Here is my take on it - 

He discovered the A and went full Caveman. Blew up the affair, disclosed to OM's wife immediately (good on you! ) thumped his chest, rattled his sabers and chased OM out of town. All good so far. 

Then he came home, yelled at the WW a bit. 

But then sat down and ate her turd sandwich. - for 3 and a half years. 

Yes, he was upset with her and made her cry and she promised to be good if she could stay but he really didn't hold her accountable for her actions. I haven't even seen anything where they sought MC or really even tried to address the actual relationship issues or her behavior etc.... just pretty much badgered her into some trickle truth confessions and then both worked hard at rugsweeping and keeping up appearances. 

So for 3 and half years he has been eating the turd sandwich and sweeping those crumbs and dried bits of poop under the rug and now the taste in his mouth is getting very foul.

The kids are older. He has retired and has time and energy on his hands and he's looking for a different future. He held the family together and provided. Now he's asking what's in it for him???

In my first post in this thread I stated I thought he was looking for retroactive justification for staying and living on the turd sandwich diet all these years, but now I am not so sure. Maybe he is now fishing for a reason to call it a wrap and move on. 

Or maybe a bit of both. Maybe he is looking for that one bright and shining light that perfectly illuminates what his future path should be and that this mythical and magical timeline will show him the way to either harmonious reconciliation or lead him to pack his bags and start banging that younger, hot blond in the tight yoga pants and bright pink bandana that's been smiling at him (OK, I added that part myself without him saying anything of the kind, but it's probably not all that far off) 

I used to think he was looking for justification for the 3 years he stayed, but now I'm wondering if he's really looking for that "Ah HAH!" moment to justify moving on. Catch her in a lie about the blow job in the park on October 22nd which was really a romp in the No-Tell Motel and now he has his free pass to move out and call up the blond in the yoga pants. 

Whatever gets you though the night. He's a grown man and a fit and healthy dude with financial security and free will.

If you want to stay - stay. If forcing this timeline gets the foul stench from the turd sandwich out of your mouth - go for it. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't but anything has to be better than just sitting there continuing to eat it. 

If you want to leave - leave. She had an ongoing, hot and heavy, full blown affair under your nose and lied about it and covered her tracks for months, you are certainly within your right. There is no statute of limitations. The kids are older and will learn a valuable life-lesson about repercussions for your actions and for standing up for yourself. There is no reason to believe that either of you will abuse, abandon or neglect them so no reason to believe they will sustain any actual harm or damage. 

If you need this timeline to push you into action whether that action be full and healthy reconciliation or divorce then go for it. She may comply. she may not. If that is a deciding factor for you, so be it. 

I personally don't believe polygraphs are necessary when you know someone is a cheater and liar, but if you need written, graphic proof on paper to prove that she swallowed in the park on October 22nd, you can demand a polygraph. She may comply. She may not. if that is a deciding factor for you, so be it. 

I agree with an earlier poster that said this is about you and not about her. You know she cheated and lied and rugswept and gas lighted and minimized and avoided the issue (and so did you)

If now is the time for you to finally come to terms and make a definitive action then pull up your britches and do it. The only thing worse that burning up 3 and half years is burning up 3 and half years and a day.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I agree that it is probably not her first rodeo.
> 
> May not have been her last either.
> 
> ...


Well I think I made my stance clear but if OP wants to stay together he should know who he is committing to. I think this is one of those instances where if he leaves and gets some space, maybe dates some new people he will figure out that she was not who he thought she was.

It always seem weird to me when the BS divorces and then talks about there WS like they were and are a monster, didn't you live with this person for years? I mean in my experience adult people don't really change that much, I can really think of someone who just became and asshole overnight. Now some people are good at hiding it sure, but from someone they live with everyday? Seems like a lot of work and not typical of someone who is an asshole. Maybe hide it from people you have shallow relationships with sure, but in every part of your life? Doesn't make sense, is it even possible? 

All that being said, I am sure some of the stuff the BS says is bluster to help with the ending. And maybe the cheater let the blinders down once they separated a little. But the only logical conclusion I can come to is that the BS finally seeing the person they married for who they really were and are the whole time. In other words I don't think the WS changed I think it went unnoticed in the fog of love. I think a lot of people have low standards or maybe at first the get trapped because in the beginning of a relationship we all try to be at our best. Maybe it's kind of a frog in boiling hot water situation. 

The overall point is these people are nobody's catch. I lot of coming to terms with all this is learning to accept it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I went back and read all of @BarelyStanding posts. I have changed my stance a little bit from when I first read this thread...….. a little bit.
> 
> Here is my take on it -
> 
> ...


This dude is going to be like waitedwaytoolong on SI. He is done he just doesn't want to face it. He will get there. She was a personal trainer too by the way. Hmmm....


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I went back and read all of @BarelyStanding posts. I have changed my stance a little bit from when I first read this thread...….. a little bit.
> 
> Here is my take on it -
> 
> ...


Yeah, he was all good to start with, even though he freaked out. I get it. 

But he lost his way, with the same old BS, "don't want to mess the kids up", and we all know that is just code for I am to chicken **** to divorce this POS wife. 

I get that it happens, I would just divorce. He spent 3 YEARS rug sweeping, and she was happy to do it. Does he really want to spend another 2-5 years trying to recover from this. Hell, he could be with a new woman that actually respects and loves him in a year and be better off.

There is not way that she can have even the least about of respect for him, and love, forget it...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Well I think I made my stance clear but if OP wants to stay together he should know who he is committing to. I think this is one of those instances where if he leaves and gets some space, maybe dates some new people he will figure out that she was not who he thought she was.
> 
> It always seem weird to me when the BS divorces and then talks about there WS like they were and are a monster, didn't you live with this person for years? I mean in my experience adult people don't really change that much, I can really think of someone who just became and asshole overnight. Now some people are good at hiding it sure, but from someone they live with everyday? Seems like a lot of work and not typical of someone who is an asshole. Maybe hide it from people you have shallow relationships with sure, but in every part of your life? Doesn't make sense, is it even possible?
> 
> ...


This is not completely True... Sometimes we just don't know who we married until they show their true selves. And the are other reasons, but yeah, they were monsters to start with we just did not know...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> This dude is going to be like waitedwaytoolong on SI. He is done he just doesn't want to face it. He will get there. She was a personal trainer too by the way. Hmmm....


I agree. 

If she says she blew Gym Boi at the park on the 23rd instead of the 22nd, he'll walk. 

She knows that. That's why she's been dragging her feet and rugsweeping all these years. She's played this well and was able to have her fun and keep her gravy train for the last 3 years.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I agree.
> 
> If she says she blew Gym Boi at the park on the 23rd instead of the 22nd, he'll walk.
> 
> She knows that. That's why she's been dragging her feet and rugsweeping all these years. She's played this well and was able to have her fun and keep her gravy train for the last 3 years.


I disagree guys, I think she knows that he will not do ****. 

And she has kept the Gravy Train going for 3.5 years, why not 10 more. If he will not divorce her, why should she do anything for him.

If they have sex at all I bet it is starfish sex at best. 

She has him by the balls.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

BarelyStanding said:


> I haven't left the building. Weekend was busy, and lots of great advice to process. Some of you have mentioned that I haven't provided the backstory, so I will do that now.
> 
> June '16, new trainer gets hired at the gym where my wife was also a trainer (I'm sure this story on varying degrees has been told her before). I worked out at this gym as well. The first time I met this guy, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. I can't fully explain the feeling, other than I just knew this guy was trouble. Knew from a hand shake and looking him in the eyes.
> 
> ...


Your description of where their deeds were done(condo, car, possible your home?) it is evident your W had zero respect for you at that time and probably does not now. 

You sound like you have it all together. Why did you bother to R with this individual? I understand kids but are the kids better off with a miserable father in a marriage that is forever changed? You took the crap sandwich. What consequences did your WW have? Appears NONE! No one was told. You helped hide her crappy choice. This should have been exposed far and wide when it was discovered.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I disagree guys, I think she knows that he will not do ****.
> 
> And she has kept the Gravy Train going for 3.5 years, why not 10 more. If he will not divorce her, why should she do anything for him.
> 
> ...


QFT. Gravy Train is right. WW has no consequences and is actively carpet sweeping. WW knows nothing truly will happen, timeline or not.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> Your description of where their deeds were done(condo, car, possible your home?) it is evident your W had zero respect for you at that time and probably does not now.
> 
> You sound like you have it all together. Why did you bother to R with this individual? I understand kids but are the kids better off with a miserable father in a marriage that is forever changed? You took the crap sandwich. What consequences did your WW have? Appears NONE! No one was told. You helped hide her crappy choice. This should have been exposed far and wide when it was discovered.


I forgot to say anything about HIM helping her hide her affair from EVERYONE.

Who does that???


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I agree.
> 
> If she says she blew Gym Boi at the park on the 23rd instead of the 22nd, he'll walk.
> 
> She knows that. That's why she's been dragging her feet and rugsweeping all these years. She's played this well and was able to have her fun and keep her gravy train for the last 3 years.


No, I feel WW is back to carpet sweeping, feet dragging hoping the questioning will settle down.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Yes, he was upset with her and made her cry and she promised to be good if she could stay but he really didn't hold her accountable for her actions. I haven't even seen anything where they sought MC or really even tried to address the actual relationship issues or her behavior etc.... just pretty much badgered her into some trickle truth confessions and then both worked hard at rugsweeping and keeping up appearances.


When people talk about rug sweeping and not holding her accountable for her actions etc, this is part of what we are talking about. 

You huffed and puffed and chased away the OM and blew up his marriage - but you didn't do anything to address your own, nor did you do anything to hold her accountable for her actions. 

Was there any professional intervention or guidance? Did you seek MC and get any professional counseling or therapy? 

Did anyone (including you) hold your wife's feet to the fire and address her behavior and dig into her motivations and rationale for her actions? Has anyone looked her straight in the eye and with deadpan face tell her that her actions are inappropriate and not acceptable in a monogamous marriage? 

Were you provided with any professional guidance on how to make these difficult decisions and what criteria you need to establish to either decide to try to fix the marriage or divorce?

Have you sought any kind of professional guidance on how to address this with the kids and how to either reconcile or divorce while minimizing the negative impact to the children? 

This was a job only partially done. You chest-thumped and chased away the OM but then sat and ate the turd sandwich and not only let your wife carry on scott-free but did not address any of the underlying or ongoing issues in your marriage. 

You've let the infection fester and spread. 

Now I believe you are looking for an excuse to leave. That's fine. That is your right. 

But if deep down, you are also looking for an excuse to stay, you need to understand that you have many miles to go and many rocks to overturn and many layers to peel back. 

cont.....


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm a female here- making a u-turn. They are like dogs fighting over a bone (timeline). Pain is kinds lost in the fabric-will bone crush or sustain or most likely get lost in the shuffle. She didn't do timeline because it would reveal the depth of her betrayal. He thinks making her do the timeline and reliving her treachery will cause her enough pain that he can take her back (an error in judgment).

We have gotten sidelined into ethics and trust. They seem to be mostly focused on the bone because pain is then transformed. Her actions this time are really not a deal-breaker for him or he would be gone. He told no one to protect their future. No counselling as far as I can see because that brings in an expert that might propose something neither wants. Maybe next time or maybe not. Just my POV.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

cont.....

And a huge, huge, huge part of this is SHE needs to be held accountable and if she wants to reconcile, then SHE needs to do the lion's share of the heavy lifting and work and effort. 

SHE needs to write the true and sincere timeline of her own volition instead of a rug sweeping appeasement to get you to stop twisting her arms about it. 

SHE needs to offer up and pay the polygraph if you need that and answer the questions YOU need answered. 

SHE needs to offer up MC and come to the table with open and honest dialogue and address the issues and rationale she used to justify the affair to herself. 

In other words SHE needs to fix this if she wants to remain married and it behooves you to have her do the heavy lifting if you want to remain married. 

If she doesn't want to do it or can't do it to your satisfaction - then you have your answer.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sunsetmist said:


> I'm-a female here- making a u-turn. They are likes dogs fighting over a bone (timeline). Pain is kinds lost in the fabric-will bone crush or sustain or most likely get lost in the shuffle. She didn't do timeline because it would reveal the depth of her betrayal. He thinks making her do the timeline and reliving her treachery will cause her enough pain that he can take her back (an error in judgment).
> 
> We have gotten sidelined into ethics and trust. They seem to be mostly focused on the bone because pain is then transformed. Her actions this time are really not a deal-breaker for him or he would be gone. He told no one to protect their future. No counselling as far as I can see because that brings in an expert that might propose something neither wants. Maybe next time or maybe not. Just my POV.


Yep seems like one of those symbiotic relationships.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I disagree guys, I think she knows that he will not do ****.
> 
> And she has kept the Gravy Train going for 3.5 years, why not 10 more. If he will not divorce her, why should she do anything for him.
> 
> ...


In the past yes. 

I'm not so sure now. 

She doesn't want any dirt on her hands for sure. 

He sucked it up and took it for a long time. But I'm not so sure for how much longer unless he really is completely emasculated and whipped now.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> In the past yes.
> 
> I'm not so sure now.
> 
> ...


Yep he has all the signs of the walk away husband. Sometime you just realize the deal you signed up for is crap.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

My recommendation is what I said in my first post on this thread - 

No more words. (pull up the old '80s song by Berlin if you to) 

Stop talking. Pack up. Move out. Start living your own life, pursuing your own interests and start dating other women. 

If she wants to remain married and keep her gravy train, then she can start doing all of the heavy lifting and doing all of the work and she can jump through your hoops and hurdles. 

You have eaten thousands of turd sandwiches for her to keep her image squeeky clean and to a roof over her head and food on her table. 

Now she can put in the work if she wants. Now she can find a therapist to delve into her motives and issues. She can find a marriage counselor and fess up to all of her actions and betrayals to a 3rd party professional. She can face the world as an adulteress living on her own. And she can sit down and make out a sincere and complete timeline if she wants. 

Or she can just go out about her life and start banging other dudes herself - you will know where she stands then. 

But my point is take action first and set your own narrative. Make her respond. 

And the clincher is, EVEN IF she checks off all the boxes and does everything you ask - you can still say no. 

Stop talking. Start doing. 

You've been eating poop for the last 3 and a half years because you sat down and stopped taking action.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> My recommendation is what I said in my first post on this thread -
> 
> No more words. (pull up the old '80s song by Berlin if you to)
> 
> ...


This is the best advice you could possibly get. Because it fits her nature. All her actions are me based at least if you leave she will be motivated, and if not you are better off. Actually you are better off either way. There are plenty of good women out there. Specifically for a 6' 2" jacked up guy at least for the shallow beginning stuff. I suggest you get some IC though if you want a good relationship long term though. Some red flags here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> Her actions this time are really not a deal-breaker for him or he would be gone. He told no one to protect their future. No counselling as far as I can see because that brings in an expert that might propose something neither wants. V.


This 100% 

Neither wanted dirt on their hands. Neither wanted uncomfortable discussions. Neither wanted to address dark underlying issues. Neither wanted to admit mistakes. 

She enjoyed getting down with another man (I'm assuming there are other men as well but that's another discussion) but didn't want anyone to know she was an adulteress and wanted to keep her clean, suburban house looking tidy. 

He was fine with acting like a tough guy threatening a smaller man (literally and figuratively) with a gun but was too weak and fearful to hold his own wife accountable for her actions and too fearful to take appropriate steps to address their issues so he sat and ate the turd sandwich. 

All of this to keep up appearances and to fool themselves into thinking all was well. 

Now he wants to catch her in some technicality to he can point fingers and say, "nanna nanna boo boo!! You actually blew him in the backseat at the park on the 22nd and not in the front seat!" 

Impotence :-(


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Besides all of this, nothing looks as MFing weak as a man (or a woman) who that keeps demanding something but does nothing but harp about how mistreated he is when the demandee fails to oblige. If you don't have the juice to back up your demands, why keep asking for it and articulating your pain when you don't get it. If she gave a rats azz about your pain, you'd had the timeline long ago. You may have to face the fact that you don't have what it takes to ever get the timeline Dawg and decide if perusing such a document is going to do you much good anyway. Sides that, if it were me writing such a time line, I'd tell folks what I think they would want the hear seasoned with what would paint me in the best possible light.


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

BarelyStanding said:


> My problem is I have told myself that I will get the timeline eventually. Eventually turned in to years, and here we are. I know I need to sack up and just give an ultimatum. If I didn't have kids, I would have. I am absolutely TERRIFIED of screwing my children up. They have no idea what happened, and wouldn't suspect a thing. I internalize all of this, and have told only one person. I'm pretty sure I have PISD, or PTSD from this- can't sleep, can't focus, can't remember ****; I feel like I have Alzheimer's at 41.


Look up the statistics of children of cheaters and how they are more likely to cheat themselves or marry a cheater. Once your wife cheated, the damage was already done. She brought strife, anxiety, dysfunction, and instability into your children's lives even if they are unaware of why. They have already been screwed up through no fault of your own. You are left with one choice: What lesson do you want your children to learn from this? Do you want them to learn that when a spouse cheats, the other spouse has to stuff down their feelings and get over it for the sake of the marriage and martyr themselves? Or do you want them to learn to stand up for themselves if their future spouse cheats? Even in option two, you can either show them a good example of how marriage can be hard work but is also rewarding when you put the work in or you can show them how to successfully uncouple and find happiness even if their spouse betrays them.

Think about it - what if your son or daughter came to you with their wife or husband doing the exact same thing your wife is doing right now. Chances are good that something similar will happen to at least one of them. What would you tell them? To hold off and give their lying, cheating spouse who has avoided them for the last 3 years more time or would you be calling up a lawyer and helping them get out of a toxic situation? Would you in good conscious tell them to settle for what you are doing right now? Would you call up their cheating spouse and give them some choice words about their behavior? Maybe this will give you more motivation to not accept anything less from your wife going forward.

Children need ONE stable, healthy parent to succeed whether their parents are together or not. You're not healthy and stable because you're suffering from PISD/PTSD and can barely function. Your wife isn't healthy and stable because she's not doing the work to change from cheater to good spouse and she's resisting giving you what you need to heal and reconcile. If it comes to divorce, you can become the stable, healthy parent and you have a second chance at showing your children an example of a good marriage so that their only reference point isn't a marriage bubbling with sadness, anger, resentment, and rotten on the inside from infidelity.

I hope you're right that your kids don't know but it's possible they do. All it takes one raised voice in the wrong place at the wrong time. All it takes is one misplaced comment. They may not get it at the time but as they get older and are exposed to other stories of infidelity and divorce, they may figure it out. It happens all the time that a BS finds out their kid(s) knew and never said anything. But what they absolutely do know is that things aren't right between you and your wife and that they haven't been right for a long time. That's a form of toxicity that teaches them all sorts of screwed up things about marriage too.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

We've seen it time and time again on here for years. Once the betrayed husband ACTUALLY walks or takes real action to detach, that is when the wife gets desperate and starts to pursue reconciliation. Once the bubble is burst and the wife realizes her husband is actually leaving, it's just so common they finally start the begging, the crying the "I'll do anything" dance. 

Until then, she won't. It's human nature. You don't fight for something until you think you've lost it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> I'm a female here- making a u-turn. They are like dogs fighting over a bone (timeline). Pain is kinds lost in the fabric-will bone crush or sustain or most likely get lost in the shuffle. She didn't do timeline because it would reveal the depth of her betrayal. He thinks making her do the timeline and reliving her treachery will cause her enough pain that he can take her back (an error in judgment).
> 
> We have gotten sidelined into ethics and trust. They seem to be mostly focused on the bone because pain is then transformed. Her actions this time are really not a deal-breaker for him or he would be gone. He told no one to protect their future. No counselling as far as I can see because that brings in an expert that might propose something neither wants. Maybe next time or maybe not. Just my POV.


I don't disagree, but what you wrote that happened is exactly WHY you should NEVER do this to yourself.

How people can is and has been a mystery to me at every level...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Gabriel said:


> We've seen it time and time again on here for years. Once the betrayed husband ACTUALLY walks or takes real action to detach, that is when the wife gets desperate and starts to pursue reconciliation. Once the bubble is burst and the wife realizes her husband is actually leaving, it's just so common they finally start the begging, the crying the "I'll do anything" dance.
> 
> Until then, she won't. It's human nature. You don't fight for something until you think you've lost it.


Which just confirms the whole thing is real to begin with. People like his wife are transaction in all their relationships, marriage just includes that. It's because they are selfish.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

Did your wife explain why CSA prevented oral with you but not with her AP?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

OutofRetirement said:


> Did your wife explain why CSA prevented oral with you but not with her AP?


Just another example of the AP getting the full menu while the BS gets limited. There's yet another thread about it on SI.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

BarelyStanding said:


> Unfortunately, this has set me back years, and I feel although the marriage is better in lots of areas, there is a cloud that has grown to a hurricane that hangs over me near daily.


Tell her that, and give her a hard deadline in the near future. Go get some real estate brochures for your area and start looking through them. Call a lawyer for a free consultation on your rights in divorce where you live.

Basically, it is time for you to get off the fence onto one side or the other. My gut feeling is you will never be at peace until you get the timeline because you sense there is much more to what happened than she ever told you.

There is something about the human need to have the facts, so it isn't just your previous profession meddling with your ability to R.

Her failure to help you recover shows she is still protecting herself and is putting you secondary. This is not the recipe for successful R.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Sir, you aren't giving your kids enough credit. Of course they don't know the gory details, but it's impossible to hide such strife and anger and mistrust. They can see body language and hear tone of voice. And kids eavesdrop, especially if they know something is wrong and are being kept in the dark. Kids are sponges--they absorb a ton without us even knowing. I think you'd be shocked.

You sound a bit like me--you're like a dog with a bone if you're determined to get something--The Timeline. I do get it. You feel like you're owed. I would feel that way, too.

Let's say your wife does produce what appears to be a clear and cogent timeline. You say she's produced 3 pages thus far. And you've already turned up your nose at what she's written.

How will you know if it's the truth? Will it even satiate you if it remains unchanged from the verbal version? Will you think she's lying and not telling you everything? Then what? You're back to square one.

If she includes some extra "facts" would you _Really_ divorce? Your record of barking but not biting is proven. Again, you're back to square one. Is there anything promising for her that would come out of her being 100% transparent? If she were, how would you know?

Is this just a punishment for your wife?

I wonder if the timeline at this late date is just an exercise in futility. I just don't see how it would help. I am in no way, shape or form white knighting for your wife--what she did was deplorable and really ****ing gross. But I think that she's fighting a losing battle--damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. 

I will say, though, that the moment I would've found out she had sex in the family home (and her idea!!!), I would've either sold it or burned it to the ground. That especially was unconscionable.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

My question is do you really think your wife loves you? Why? Her actions do show it at least to me.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

OutofRetirement said:


> Did your wife explain why CSA prevented oral with you but not with her AP?





Nucking Futs said:


> Just another example of the AP getting the full menu while the BS gets limited. There's yet another thread about it on SI.


Its easy to explain. How many women want to even lay down with, let alone give the full Monty, to a man they have a low romantic interest in? Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Suppose a man is married to a woman that disgust him and he no longer feel attracted but doesn't want to leave because he'd loose his home, the kids, et cetera. Should he be obligated to go down on her? 
When women don't have romantic interest, giving the guy "duty" sex and having to deal with even minor exchanges of body fluid ranges from unappealing to grossing her out. He's lucky if she doesn't require him to wear a rubber.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

VladDracul said:


> When women don't have romantic interest, giving the guy "duty" sex and having to deal with even minor exchanges of body fluid ranges from unappealing to grossing her out. He's lucky if she doesn't require him to wear a rubber.


Is that how his wife explained it to him?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

OutofRetirement said:


> Is that how his wife explained it to him?


Let me see for some reason, I guess you OOR are expecting a woman that had an affair on her husband, gas lit him, bullied him, convinced him to rug sweep, and evidently did not do any of the REAL work to help her husband heal, or work on the actual marriage... You are saying that you think a woman like that would be honest and tell her husband that she was not sexually attracted to him and did not really ever want to have sex with him.... 

You think this woman would be honest? 

OK...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

OOR, it ain't what they explain to you. Its how they treat you. Take you for example my man. Unless it causes them pain, you don't less for "A" than you do do for "B" because you like "A" better.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

It's frustrating when the OP barely posts on his/her own thread.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> It's frustrating when the OP barely posts on his/her own thread.


The longer that goes on the more likely I am to start considering "creative writing exercise".


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> You think this woman would be honest?
> 
> OK...


No, but I would like to know if the original poster asked the question, whether it was answered and, if so, what explanation was provided.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

OutofRetirement said:


> No, but I would like to know if the original poster asked the question, whether it was answered and, if so, what explanation was provided.


I’m getting the impression they haven’t discussed much of anything related to the affair or to their relationship. 

He managed to badger some confession out of her, ran off the OM and then both have worked hard and put in considerable effort to rugsweep and keep up appearances.

I think this whole timeline issue is more about “punishing” her and him getting his way than it is for any meaningful exchange of information or disclosure of the depth and breadth of the affair.

I think the reason it has become such an issue for him is she has thus far not capitulated and given it to him. 

I think his objective in this is to “win” and punish her not necessarily to repair the damaged relationship or seek a peaceful divorce and carry on with his own life.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I’m getting the impression they haven’t discussed much of anything related to the affair or to their relationship.
> 
> He managed to badger some confession out of her, ran off the OM and then both have worked hard and put in considerable effort to rugsweep and keep up appearances.
> 
> ...


Maybe, but I think he is just existing and he is too scared to get a divorce. He believes al the BS about getting a divorce and he is weak and scared. 

What he, and others like him, does/do not realize is that is they really had the balls to file for divorce when it happened, he MIGHT have had a chance to save his marriage. 

As it stands now, I don't think he has a chance. If he does not catch her cheating, he will eventually realize that the pain of staying with her is worse than the fear of leaving her. 

At least I hope it will be...


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

syhoybenden said:


> The longer that goes on the more likely I am to start considering "creative writing exercise".


Are any of these recent stories real?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Seems to be a lot of triggery stories on SI as well.

I just figure give the best advice and maybe someone will read it and it will help them.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> I know my wife- having to put words on paper is extremely uncomfortable for her, because it make the affair more real (not sure how much more real it can get, but whatever...). She has initially blamed her job and being busy as to why she hasn't provided one for me yet, even though it is CLEARLY something I need.


Her being "uncomfortable" is probably the least of it. Most cheaters don't like having to provide a written timeline because it's just like giving a deposition for a court case - once it's on paper a cheater HAS to keep their facts straight and give you the same answer that's on the paper - *every single time*. The overwhelming majority of cheaters lie, deny and minimize when they're caught and unless you married Mother Theresa, you've probably been lied to. Sorry, that's just the way it is. She's more than likely fudged the truth with lies of omission, downright denials, and plenty of minimizing, so having _anything_ in writing just makes it harder for her to keep her story straight. Lots of cheaters who were required to provide timelines get caught in their lies later on down the road. *LOTS* of them.

Also, she probably doesn't want you to have a written "confession" from her to forever hold against her - possibly legally if applicable. And that's what a time line - basically a confession to wrongdoing. But I kind of *doubt *she's avoiding doing it because of "guilt" or it making the affair "more real" for her. That's just *wishful* thinking on your part.

_



*She then tells me, finally, that she is afraid to do it because "it makes her think about the affair, and the affair makes her sick". She's afraid to put herself back in that place.*

Click to expand...

_LOL. Yet another pile of steaming ******** designed to make you stop asking for that timeline. If you think for one minute that she never thinks fondly about that affair, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. I'm just being *realistic* here and the truth is, she only stopped that affair because she got CAUGHT, not because she felt it was "wrong" or "bad" so it seems a bit phony to be claiming how "sickened" she is by it and she's "afraid" to be back in that place. What a load of crap that is.

*



I would consider this 3.5 years of unnecessary torture. I'm convinced she's just terrified of writing out the details, especially since it's been so long now. I don't think she remembers exactly what she told me, or exactly what she remembers. That's her problem, not mine, I get that.

Click to expand...

*BINGO. I already described why, above.

Look OP. True reconciliation can *ONLY* happen when your partner is *truly remorseful* and she's not. Sorry, but she's NOT. True remorse is rarer than frog's hair. Most cheaters are just looking to not lose what they had and of course they feel bad for having caused their spouse pain, but THEIR asses are always the first one they're going to protect and look after. Not your ass. THEIRS. And that's exactly what she's been doing since the day you caught her - protecting her OWN ass.

And that, my friend, is a blatant sign that you're in "reconciliation" with a *remorseless *cheater.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ah yes, the timeline, yes that.

It is not the timeline that matters, it is the lying time.

With her not telling you the truth, the whole truth, the facts, and the (lying in bed time) with POSOM.

The timeline will put truth to her words, scribing, describing facts, now on paper.

And, lastly, a truthful timeline paints her with the fearful _Scarlet Letter_, right across the boobs she willingly bared and shared with another man.

@She'sStillGotIt said this nicely, though, she used more words.

I condensed the thinking down to earthworm level.....plain dirt level.


_The Typist~_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Forget about the timeline, you know that she _did-done_ the dirty deed.
Often and willingly.

Forgive, though never forget. 

Or, move on to another lady, one that is faithful.
Most ladies are lovely, yours has proven herself.....not.


_Gwendolyn-_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

For both your sakes', hers and yours, divorce, and start fresh.

You can only wash yourselves clean of this old bad news, by rarely, if never seeing each other.

Such, with your betrayed and knowing eyes and her knowing, and one-sided lies.


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## Kamstel2 (Feb 24, 2020)

Just checking in on you.

How are you doing?

hope you are doing well.

stay strong!


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Geez I’m having flashbacks, so similar to my own situation. I’m a little bit ahead of you on the timeline but the responses from your WW are so f’ing eerie. They really are all the same. I’ll post a bit later but I went thru this same psychic battle with my WW last fall. Spoiler alert: it doesn’t end well. I’m moving toward divorce now unless I see something profoundly different and I don’t think I will


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Ok, I wanted to let OP know I have been pretty much on the same trajectory and it’s awful.

My D-Day was only a few months before yours - Dec. of 2016.

I VAR’d and exposed and did most of that Initial part right. But then in my shock, I started to make a bunch of mistakes and allowed rugsweeping, blame-shifting, trickle truth, hysterical bonding, etc.

I too had interminable conversation after conversation in which I asked for a timeline and polygraph.

Finally in August of last year I’d had enough of just residing in limbo and started posting for advice on Surviving Infidelity. I got some decent advice there, though some here at TAM think things are a little too wishy washy over there. Anyway, people really pushed me to hold her feet to the fire, get a timeline and get a poly.

So I did at first, kinda. Then I caved.

I recommend you do what I did, but with more steely-eyed realism and resolve.

1. Find a practice of several counselors who are betrayal trauma specialists in your area.
2. Ask your wife to agree to go to one of the IC’s there, and you go to the other one.
3. Inquire about their disclosure process. This should include a timeline and a polygraph. If it doesn’t include a polygraph, find another practice.
4. Give permission for the IC’s to compare notes so your WW can’t play games.
5. Insist on a date certain for their written disclosure - say within 4 weeks. Typically they will want to have a few sessions with you first.
6. Make sure you will get a copy of the timeline to keep.
7. Make sure you will have adequate time in the disclosure session To ask as many questions as you need.
8. Then follow up the timeline after you’ve had time to absorb with a polygraph no later than a week after the disclosure of the timeline.

This boxes her in because it’s all part of the therapy and practice, standard operating procedure.

Now — if she won’t agree to any of these things — you should be prepared to file for D. That’s where I fell down on the job.

My WW dragged this process out from August of 2019 all the way through December of 2019 — this after asking her to do these things for three years.

It deeply impacted my health — and then she failed the polygraph. All only two days before Christmas.

I had a heart attack scare (my heart is fine) that dragged out through the winter before i got the “all clear” and then the pandemic lockdowns started.

Now, after thinking everything over carefully and reviewing all of my circumstances, I’m moving toward divorce. My wife has not been truthful and without truth, there’s no reconciliation. Without reconciliation, you’re living in limbo — and brother, thats nowhere to be.

I want out of limbo And I bet you do too. So get out of it. Give her one last chance with a hard ultimatum you will folllow through on And then do it.

The timeline MUST be backed up by a polygraph.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> Ok, I wanted to let OP know I have been pretty much on the same trajectory and it’s awful.
> 
> My D-Day was only a few months before yours - Dec. of 2016.
> 
> ...


Or save yourself a lot of time and money and divorce. The fact that you made this post means you are going to eventually. It doesn't go away unless you do.

Once you start posting about it not getting better you have reached the point of no return, either slowly of fast. But it's NOT going to get better. I have never once seen anyone post like this and not have it eventually divorce. At least now anyone who got better. Because the only way it can get better is to leave. The problem is who you are marred to period. The problem is you are going against your own nature in staying.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

P.S. I also got the litany of lame excuses - “I don’t know” (a lie) “I can’t remember” (a lie) “I’ve already told you everything“ (a lie) “I thought after the first year you didn’t want it anymore” (a lie and a stall) - I even got the line that she thought I was asking her to put together a visual timeline history “chart” and she didn’t know how to do that! No, seriously! She was almost embarrassed about that when I started laughing at her, almost.

Look, the reason she doesn’t want to do it and hasn’t done it is because 1) she knows just how seedy and vile It will look in the harsh light of day, written out in black and white. Because it is seedy and vile! And 2) she knows that the phenomenon of “which lie did I tell?“ will kick in once she commits it to a written document. She’ll be committed to a WRITTEN accounting that she can’t shade, elide, minimize or slightly amend verbally.

See how that works?

She’s strung you along for 3.5 years and it’s worked pretty well for her so far, so why would she do it now?

What I’m really starting to realize about all WS’s but especially WW’s is that they don’t want to be held accountable for their actions.

Be honest with yourself: Exactly how difficult is it to sit down at a table with a pen and paper for a few hours, and start writing down everything? Not that hard. Yet she’s not willing to do it and has created a 1,000-plus day drama around it.

Think about this way: Your WW willingly — willingly — gave herself to another man, and she planned repeatedly how to do it. She invested countless hours in another relationship, a sexual relationship. By contrast, however, she can not even COMMIT to spend a few hours to write down what happened on a piece of paper for you.

She won’t even put in a fraction of the time, commitment and work writing down what happened as she did in actually making these awful things happen and betraying you.

That’s what you are worth to her. Not very much.

Think about it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> What I’m really starting to realize about all WS’s but especially WW’s is that they don’t want to be held accountable for their actions.


Yep it breaks the cloud in which they operate. They don't have any responsibilities remember it's just the play that they are the star of and everyone else are just robots (like in westworld) with no real or important feelings or emotions.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> No, I think this one is tougher. I don't post on a cwi thread if I don't think the bs is tough enough to eventually be pushed into taking action. I hope I'm not wrong.


OP hasn't been here in over two weeks. I may have been wrong about him.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Not sure if OP is still around, looks like it's been a couple of weeks, but another ultimatum is not what is needed. If it was 3.5 months out from D-day then maybe. But after 3.5 years of the mistakes OP has continued to make? He needs to drop divorce papers in front of her or have her served with no warning. If that doesn't motivate her to give a timeline nothing will. She knows what he wants and what he needs and she's known for years. Threats, ultimatums, reasoning, arguing, pleading, discussing, begging, etc has not gotten him what he's wanted and it won't. It's time for him to actually _do_ something concrete.

You have people who are: 1. Brave/strong enough leave a difficult marriage. 2. Too weak/scared to leave a difficult marriage. 3. Brave/strong enough to stay in a difficult marriage. 4. Too weak/scared of staying in and working on a difficult marriage.

OP is a 2 when he needs to be a 1 but he wants to be a 3. I understand wanting the timeline but after putting up with this for 3.5 years it really does seem like he's pain shopping at this point. She's not going to give him the timeline. Not if he keeps doing things the way he's doing.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Jasel said:


> Not sure if OP is still around, looks like it's been a couple of weeks, but another ultimatum is not what is needed.


Probably right.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Jasel said:


> I understand wanting the timeline but after putting up with this for 3.5 years it really does seem like he's pain shopping at this point.


And this sounds like me Too.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

I'm still around, I've just been busy. After the initial foray into writing the timeline, she's not lifted a finger since. 

We're both busy with work, but she should have had it done by now, full stop. Thumos and others, your words are hard to read but full of wisdom. 

I think it's time to call it quits.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

BarelyStanding said:


> After the initial foray into writing the timeline, she's not lifted a finger since


Are you sure you're not my doppelganger? Because this sounds like me too. It took FOUR MONTHS to finish the timeline after I gave her a hard ultimatum at the THREE YEAR mark. Actually let's be honest, it was that hard of an ultimatum from me if she managed to drag it out for an additional four months. And she knew this. She knew she could drag it out and just keep doing what she was doing.

Your wife knows it too, man. She will know it until she knows differently because she's seen you ACT in a new way.

In fact this was one of the factors to finally push me along to telling I want D. I reasoned it through: my WW spent countless hours and made countless conscious decisions and put an incredible amount of energy into her affair, even though it was "only" three months (which by the way is pretty average length). But then she wouldn't spend several hours simply buckling down and writing a timeline. What did that tell me? You can guess. Occam's razor says the simplest explanation usually fits: It just wasn't that important to her.


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## BarelyStanding (Jul 3, 2020)

She's more concerned about not confronting her own demons instead of helping me exorcize mine. That much is obvious.

Last night, I forgot to put a pee pad down in a spot that our cats like to pee. That set off an evening of rage directed at me. She didn't notice the other things I had done, only the one thing I forgot to do. 

That really pissed me off. She apologized this morning, but I didn't say anything and just stared at her. When she finished talking, she asked why I was being silent. I told her I needed to take a ****, and that was higher on my priority list than listening to her. I think I'm finding my strength, finally. Better late than never, I guess.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Ok so three weeks have gone by since you asked for advice here about getting off high center. Nearly a month.

-Did you check around and find betrayal trauma specialists like I suggested?
-Did you give her a hard deadline for the timeline? 
-Did you start checking for reputable polygraph examiners in your area (usually with law enforcement backgrounds)?

Or considering she's dragged her feet for three weeks on something that should have taken a matter of days, are you ready to pass GO and just go for your freedom out of limbo? 

If you still want to go the former route I laid out with disclosure and betrayal trauma IC, then get moving! 

And don't fall for the "polygraphs aren't reliable" gambit. They are used routinely in corporate America, by the FBI and intelligence communities, by the military and by the U.S. Senate among other entities. 

They aren't allowed as evidence in trials, and who cares? A lot of things that are good empirical evidence get excluded in trials, because courtroom trials aren't about getting at the actual truth - they are about seeking justice through an adversarial process, meeting a burden of proof etc. So that argument has nothing to do with a polygraph's reliability. They are effective, but even more so they are effective as a tool of psychic pressure on someone who is trying to hide something. 

Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

BarelyStanding said:


> Last night, I forgot to put a pee pad down in a spot that our cats like to pee. That set off an evening of rage directed at me. She didn't notice the other things I had done, only the one thing I forgot to do.


This is a version of DARVO. Look it up. Learn how to spot it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Better late than never is something to focus on. I stayed with a rug-sweeping cheater for decades and I don’t recommend that life. I hope your exit goes smoothly (if you decide that’s the path you want to take).


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

I know EXACTLY how hard this is BarelyStanding. Some people try to make it seem easy, you know "kick her to the curb" etc. Flippant. It's one of the hardest things you will ever do or ever face in your life. But you CAN do it and you CAN face it. That's what you are finding out about yourself. 

The beatings will continue until the morale improves. 

Eventually you'll grow weary of the beatings, grab the nightstick from the prison guard and escape over the wall to freedom from limbo. 

Just make sure when that time comes, hopefully sooner rather than later, you've got enough in you to make it over that wall. Don't wait too long.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

BarelyStanding said:


> She does work her ass off for our business...but shouldn't she have been willing to move heaven and earth to get this to me after an affair?


This is just lame. She could sit her ass down at midnight every night and write for an hour or 30 minutes and be done in a few days if it was important to her. Let's say she was working her ass for your business and she was also going to night law school. Do you think her professors would wait for 3.5 years for her to finish assignments? Or would she have to buckle down and just get it done, even if it cost her a few hours of sleep? As the saying goes, you can sleep when you're dead. 

Tell her to get off her ass and get it done.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Thumos said:


> I know EXACTLY how hard this is BarelyStanding. Some people try to make it seem easy, you know "kick her to the curb" etc. Flippant. It's one of the hardest things you will ever do or ever face in your life. But you CAN do it and you CAN face it. That's what you are finding out about yourself.
> 
> The beatings will continue until the morale improves.
> 
> ...


This is where I have to disagree with you a little... 

It may not be easy, but it is easier that saying in basically a false R for 4 years.

The thing is for both of you, is you were stubborn, ok lots of us are. And you both knew that you could FIX this and now... you know that you never could have. 

Further, if you had gone shock and awe from the beginning, you actually would have had a chance to MAYBE save your marriage. 

And if is did not you would already have been divorced already and probably with a wonderful women by now. 

Not saying this to bang either of you, but now it the time to NOT lie to yourself. 

Learn about what you will and will not stand for. And trying to R with an unremorseful wife should be one of them...


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

BluesPower said:


> The thing is for both of you, is you were stubborn, ok lots of us are. And you both knew that you could FIX this and now... you know that you never could have.
> 
> Further, if you had gone shock and awe from the beginning,


What you say is true. I am VERY stubborn. And yes, I could have been with a wonderful woman by now (it's also true that I got one kid out of the nest and really set myself up for a better divorce financially speaking).

Thing is I did pretty much go shock and awe in the beginning. The only thing I left out was a timeline and polygraph.

In my defense, and his defense too, I didn't know jack squat about how to handle an affair and had read only a few posts. And one post -- about how to set up a VAR -- was the one that stood out to me at the time. So that's what I did.

I VAR'd, confronted, exposed to her family, insisted on NC. I agreed to MC right away - big mistake, but I didn't know any better. That's where one would think to naturally turn bc you're in physical shock. Your body actually goes into shock.

Other than that, who really knows how to deal with these things? I would warrant not many. The "shock and awe" thing is only perfectly handled in rare cases, just as it is equally rare to see a truly remorseful spouse in my view. It takes some time for most people to suss all this out. Sure, the occasional dude has their **** squared away tight and moves with alacrity. Btu not often, if we're being honest.

What I was saying was that it is hard getting past the notion of who you thought she was, the idea of growing old together, the idea of a stable family -- especially if like my WW they are doing so many things to show the kind of wife they want to be going forward. People like me have a LOT invested in that. We're traditional. We thought we had it squared away. And then boom, a nuclear bomb hits. The shockwaves reverberate for a long time. It takes some time to process that your entire reality is completely different from what you thought it was.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Also when is society going to start recognizing that female infidelity is becoming or has already become as big a problem as male infidelity, if not worse, and that it comes with it's own special problems, a set of unique behaviors by cheating women, and issues unique to betrayed men?

There is a scandalous crisis being played out across the Western world, but in particular in American and UK with female infidelity. It is destroying families, but to hear the media tell it this is either empowering and a social good, or it's not happening.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Thumos said:


> What you say is true. I am VERY stubborn. And yes, I could have been with a wonderful woman by now (it's also true that I got one kid out of the nest and really set myself up for a better divorce financially speaking).
> 
> Thing is I did pretty much go shock and awe in the beginning. The only thing I left out was a timeline and polygraph.
> 
> ...


I know that all of it is overwhelming, I get that. 

I have also decided that I am going to be less stubborn and not try and fix anyone but me. 

I am not dogging anyone, you, him or myself, if we knew then what we know now. 

I did not know anything when mine happened, but part of me feels like I should have known to get out then. For that I have regrets. I think I wasted a large part of my life, and that sucks. 

However, you cannot change the past...


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Keep moving forward.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Many of us who stayed (in my case decades) wish we knew then what we know now. I had a long list of “reasons” why I didn’t divorce my husband on DD1. Basically, I chose to believe his lies because I was in the middle of the chaos and confusion that infidelity brings. I wanted to stay in my marriage and I wanted life to be again as I thought it was. It was only after I finally got out that I realized what a huge mistake that was. You tend not to think clearly when emotions are involved — I certainly didn’t.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Openminded said:


> Many of us who stayed (in my case decades) wish we knew then what we know now. I had a long list of “reasons” why I didn’t divorce my husband on DD1. Basically, I chose to believe his lies because I was in the middle of the chaos and confusion that infidelity brings. I wanted to stay in my marriage and I wanted life to be again as I thought it was. It was only after I finally got out that I realized what a huge mistake that was. You tend not to think clearly when emotions are involved — I certainly didn’t.


Yes. There are a lot of reasons for this, 

I am betting that this was all before the internet, so no help there. And the only books seemed to be Dr. Heartly, no thank you. 

We just did not know. They should really teach relationship education instead of sex education in high school. 

You are just too ignorant if you don't go through it, and no one wants to go through it...


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

But even with internet, there's a level of just being overwhelmed, not seeing the right information and not knowing what to look for. I had the internet four years ago. I still ended up rugsweeping. I did the "shock and awe" at the beginning and then found myself overwhelmed. We've got extend grace to betrayed men and women. It takes time to process something like this. 

It's basically the same as the ending of "The Empire Strikes Back" when Luke finds out his father is Darth Vader. He's just had his hand cut off, he's clinging Christlike to the bottom of the Cloud City, and he's begging for some kind of explanation or solace or help from Ben. He gets rescued at the last minute, but his body is broken and his heart has been emotionally ripped in half. It takes him time to process what he has suddenly learned, which changes everything he thought he knew before. We then next see him months, perhaps years later, confronting Jabba the Hutt. He's scarred, quieter, more self contained. Different. He doesn't get back to "shock and awe' the deep betrayal he's suffered and in fact only gets to confront the entire situation MUCH later on the 2nd Death Star, where he almost loses his life in the process. 

Finding out the person you trusted more than all the other 7 billion people on the planet has betrayed you is a lot like that.


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## QuickerPickerUpper (Aug 4, 2020)

BarelyStanding said:


> I guess that makes me look weak, and I agree. Problem is, life gets in the way...running a business etc...I've forced myself to back burner my needs because I didn't want to cause her too much stress. She does work her ass off for our business...but shouldn't she have been willing to move heaven and earth to get this to me after an affair?
> 
> Man, 10 years ago, I would've handled this completely differently. And that pisses me off. But life got in the way.


Why do you still allow your wife to use her self victimization to get you to back off?

She's done the same thing already. Seriously. 

Her inability to be a big girl and take her medicine is what likely caused her to cheat in the first place. If she feels bad about something, that becomes a justification for why she acts a certain way. 

Why are you letting her do this again? How is this a better marriage if she is still employing the same manipulative emotional tactics that caused you to not follow through on your boundaries in the first place?

Lemme ask you this: what are you really afraid to lose?

I say this with compassion, but you are her pavlovian dog. She rings her woe is me victim bells and you bark and wait for a chance to give into her demands so that you can get your treat.

You have literally been trained to fall for her same cycle of manipulation. 

How does that benefit you?

What are you so scared to lose about her that you are willing to build internal resentment and pain for?

You are not a dog, sir. So stop allowing her to train and treat you like one. 

End the bell ringing and tell her to be a big girl. 

She isn't 16 anymore. You're not her daddy who is supposed to make sure she is constantly encased in a house of pillows. 

Enough of this trend of waywards using the ramifications of their betrayal as license to victimize themselves. 

When are you going to hold her responsible?

If she found time to cheat during the stress of life, she can find the dramatic motivation to give you what you need. 

Again, stop being her pavlovian dog.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Thumos said:


> But even with internet, there's a level of just being overwhelmed, not seeing the right information and not knowing what to look for. I had the internet four years ago. I still ended up rugsweeping. I did the "shock and awe" at the beginning and then found myself overwhelmed. We've got extend grace to betrayed men and women. It takes time to process something like this.
> 
> Finding out the person you trusted more than all the other 7 billion people on the planet has betrayed you is a lot like that.


There is no doubt about this, but that is the reason why people should take a class and one week should be what happens if someone cheats or how to handle infidelity. 

But in reality, it seems like you should be able to get your head together in 6 months or a year. But it does not always happen.


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## QuickerPickerUpper (Aug 4, 2020)

BarelyStanding said:


> I'm dying on this hill because this is owed to me. Plus, hard evidence is never a bad thing in a divorce proceeding. I have become laser focused on getting this from her. If she pulls the I can't remember **** card, then great. I know what direction I need to go, and I WILL move in that direction regardless if she doesn't provide it. Maybe she does provide the timeline, and it is worse than what she told me, in which case I can leave at that point. She should have done this years ago, before causing me additional pain, but she didn't.
> 
> I know full well that I will be reopening the wounds- but since I don't have this to being with, they never really had a chance to heal. I already told her that when it is done (she's done about 3 pages of word vomit so far- I checked), I will be going camping for a week to clear my head, and I will then decide what direction I want to take from there.


I don't understand this. You are focusing on the end goal of getting her to FINALLY give you the timeline.

3.5 years of pulling teeth in a desperate attempt to get what you need.

You know as well as I do, that the timeline isn't really the issue.

Why do you want to be with someone who has to be given ultimatums in order to do what's right?

What's the next thing you're going to have to tactfully strong arm her into?


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

*JULY 3, 2020*


BarelyStanding said:


> Dday was 2/15/2017. 3.5 years. Pleading with her to give me a timeline written out. I, however, am adamant about getting a written timeline.


*as of AUGUST 14, 2020*


BarelyStanding said:


> After the initial foray into writing the timeline, she's not lifted a finger since. We're both busy with work


Just to summarize the 9 pages here.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> She's more concerned about not confronting her own demons instead of helping me exorcize mine. That much is obvious.
> 
> Last night, I forgot to put a pee pad down in a spot that our cats like to pee. That set off an evening of rage directed at me. She didn't notice the other things I had done, only the one thing I forgot to do.
> 
> That really pissed me off. She apologized this morning, but I didn't say anything and just stared at her. When she finished talking, she asked why I was being silent. I told her I needed to take a ****, and that was higher on my priority list than listening to her. I think I'm finding my strength, finally. Better late than never, I guess.


You have to ask yourself what does thing women bring to your life?

Looking at the preponderance of evidence do you really think this women loves you?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> I know EXACTLY how hard this is BarelyStanding. Some people try to make it seem easy, you know "kick her to the curb" etc. Flippant. It's one of the hardest things you will ever do or ever face in your life. But you CAN do it and you CAN face it. That's what you are finding out about yourself.
> 
> The beatings will continue until the morale improves.
> 
> ...


Tell me what great rewarding thing in life is easy?

I think you guys think because we dumped our cheaters that somehow we didn't suffer like you will if you do. That **** was the hardest thing I ever did in my life. Remember I had just proposed, in my mind we were at the very apex of the relationship. All I saw was a bright future, not a history of pain. We had no years of drama and disagreements, I went from her crying when she left on the trip to a month later her laughing at me with this new guy. From thinking I was about to be married to the love of my life to ghosting her in the span of like 2 months. If you think that wasn't like having someone ripe my soul out you are sadly mistaking. There is nothing special or unique about people who leave, it was just as hard for them as it will be for you, they just choose to cut out the cancer and suffer.

It's hard for everyone, it take courage and resolve. But it must be done. It must be done for your own sanity, but also because you know in your heart that you deserve better. It's better to be alone then to let someone disrespect you like these people do. At the end of the day dedicating your life to someone who treated you like you have absolutely no value is demeaning and demoralizing. It's soul crushing. You may prevent intense pain at first if you do, but you won't prevent the sickness that will eventually destroy your heart.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

BarelyStanding said:


> I think I'm finding my strength, finally. Better late than never, I guess.


So have you used any of that new found strength to hire a lawyer yet?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

BarelyStanding said:


> She's more concerned about not confronting her own demons instead of helping me exorcize mine. That much is obvious.
> 
> Last night, I forgot to put a pee pad down in a spot that our cats like to pee. That set off an evening of rage directed at me. She didn't notice the other things I had done, only the one thing I forgot to do.
> 
> That really pissed me off. She apologized this morning, but I didn't say anything and just stared at her. When she finished talking, she asked why I was being silent.* I told her I needed to take a *****, and that was higher on my priority list than listening to her. I think I'm finding my strength, finally. Better late than never, I guess.


I doubt you said this!

Either way...

The thought of saying it is enough. 

Leave any childish responses to her in the toy box.
Let her see the good man she lost, not the bitter one she would be glad to lose.

After the divorce, you want her to remember the good in you, not that snark.
That is the best revenge.


_THRD-_


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

@BarelyStanding It is important to remember that, regarding her writing down a fully detailed accounting of everything, she may not have an appreciation of your need to basically know where the "bottom" is so you can decide how to deal with the rest of your life. Or figure which way to claw yourself back out of hell. Add to that the fact that she's probably a bit scared of who she really is, and what she's capable of. 

But there's one other thing to consider. You went ballistic in a way that involved a conversation about using a gun in a violent fashion. If I were in her shoes, I'd be looking at ways to avoid revisiting anything that might trigger such thoughts again. Even though your direct threat of violence wasn't aimed at her, she had to be feeling a bit threatened herself. You expect truth and words from her, deservedly so. On her side, she might be fearing for her life.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

OutofRetirement said:


> Did your wife explain why CSA prevented oral with you but not with her AP?


Good Lord! I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this one!


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## Buffer (Dec 17, 2019)

Strength brother.
Buffer


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

He needs courage more then strength.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

The pee pad incident is very telling. She is top dog, not you.

You are in a power struggle that she is winning.
She knows that she was stronger than you back then, and thinks she is stronger than you now.
She knows that you will not risk divorce 3.5 years after discovery, over a written list.
She weathered that storm back then and is just stringing you along.
She is not concerned about confronting her own demons She is not dragging her feet for any reason other than she does not want to give you all the facts.

The only thing that* maybe *will get you a timeline is the show of strength that you could not produce 3.5 years ago. You may need to divorce her to demonstrate your resolve. If that works, you can re-marry her later if she eventually produces said timeline.

Your timeline obsession has put you in a tough spot. I know because I was once where you are now. I walked away without obtaining a result. Emotionally crippling, but consoled by my preservation of my own self esteem and my disdain of her lack of love for me. Yet, sometimes, the thought assails me that I should have stayed. Not much of a winner either way.

I hope you arrive at a solution that brings you peace.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

2asdf2 said:


> The pee pad incident is very telling. She is top dog, not you.
> 
> You are in a power struggle that she is winning.
> She knows that she was stronger than you back then, and thinks she is stronger than you now.
> ...


Who wants to be in a contentious marriage that is a struggle for power though?

I mean even in your case, you are saying how hard it was to walk away but from an outside perspective you liberated yourself. No offense I don't blame you for feeling that way but it show the thing that needs to be worked on is not determination it's perspective. In OP's case his perspective is that he is trying to hold onto something that a present doesn't have any value because he is assessing it's value by past history or even more probably what his perception of what that history was.

These spouses are not good people to be in relationships with, they are pain traps. They actually have less then no value when it come to relationships. If anything there a negative value. Why I say they are like traps is because just like a trap they offer something that seems enticing at first but once you find out the truth, the reality is, they lead to your destruction. Like the proverbial fruit in a box held up by a stick.

Why would you let your soul be crush, or even effected by someone so hateful. From my perspective, if yours was anything like OP's, your story is not someone who loved and lost it's someone who was held captive but escaped. You are not a victim but someone who overcame.

Perspective. Which is why I say courage more then strength. Part of this is having the courage to be honest with yourself about who it is you are with, even if that means admitting you made a mistake being with them. Thing is we all did it, but not everyone falls into the sunk cost fallacy.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

BarelyStanding said:


> I'm still around, I've just been busy. After the initial foray into writing the timeline, she's not lifted a finger since.
> 
> We're both busy with work, but she should have had it done by now, full stop. Thumos and others, your words are hard to read but full of wisdom.
> 
> I think it's time to call it quits.


Here is my prediction. You will finally call a lawyer and start the D process. Once you do, your wife will beg you to stop the process and promise the timeline by the next day. You'll be so curious that you will say, okay, but I need it tomorrow. And she'll give you some half-ass timeline and you won't feel any better.

Your W just wants all of this to go away and life to be normal. But life will never be normal again for you - she just can't understand that.

In your shoes there is no way I could have stayed with this woman the moment I found out what she had done.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

SInce you posted here on July 3, these past 45 days, I have put more time into your marriage than your wife has. And I have a whole other marriage, too, kids and everything. You're welcome.

Just having some fun. And trying to figure out what should I procrastinate on next instead of doing the actual important things I should be doing. Can you relate?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

so if this timeline is so end-all/be-all important, what are you going to do if you finally do brow beat her into sitting down with a pen and paper and all it says is, " Summer 2016 - had an inappropriate friendship with Trainer Boi. Winter 2017, you found out so I broke it off with him." 

What are you going to do? Are you going to fact-check everything and cross check all the event via polygraph?

What are you going to do when you know there were more events than what she divulged? Are you going to send her back to her room to start all over for the next 3.5 years?

This is never going to end. This can be dragged out for the rest of your lives if you let it - which you are. 

I said this is my first post on this thread, you made the decision to stay the moment you found out and everything is being used to justify that decision. This timeline is being used to stay in the marriage. the longer she puts it off, the longer you stay waiting for it. If she complies and hands you a timeline, you will that as compliance and either justify staying because she did what you asked, or you will say it's incomplete and not good enough and send her back to her room to work on it some more for the next 3.5 years. 

Then rinse and repeat. 

This is a very dysfunctional and maladaptive dynamic. You need to poop or get off the pot. All-in or all-out. Either make the decision to stay and get over it and carry on with life together. Or make the decision to throw in the towel and exit stage-left and carry on with your own life. 

You are keeping yourself in some kind of hellish limbo for some reason and seem completely hamstrung on making any kind of definitive decision either way.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Summer 2016 - had an inappropriate friendship with Trainer Boi. Winter 2017, you found out so I broke it off with him."


If this is all she can muster, then be done. Seriously.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> This timeline is being used to stay in the marriage. the longer she puts it off, the longer you stay waiting for it. If she complies and hands you a timeline, you will that as compliance and either justify staying because she did what you asked, or you will say it's incomplete and not good enough and send her back to her room to work on it some more for the next 3.5 years.
> 
> Then rinse and repeat.
> 
> This is a very dysfunctional and maladaptive dynamic. You need to poop or get off the pot. All-in or all-out. Either make the decision to stay and get over it and carry on with life together. Or make the decision to throw in the towel and exit stage-left and carry on with your own life.


This is very good advice. Pay attention. Really read this through a couple of times.

This is precisely (or very close) to the dynamic with my WW. It's the "if they would just cheat again, I could leave them" dynamic where you're looking for something, anything, to end the agony.

But you already have all the truth you need. You already know what happened, and you've got a spouse who isn't all that sorry about what happened.

If she was, she would have already done EVERYTHING in her power to provide truth, transparency and recompense. But she hasn't because she just doesn't care enough. I'm sorry but that's the truth.

She just can't muster enough empathy and strength of character to do what needs to be done. You know why? Because that person who is unable to muster enough empathy and strength of character is who she is, which is why she cheated on you in the first place.

The problem is that "stay and get over it" will never happen for you. And you know this already. You'll try or you _could_ try, but unless you've received a frontal lobotomy, you're a thinking person and incapable of staying and playing "let's pretend."

Instead, it will be "stay and languish in hell."

It causes cognitive dissonance, and ignores your heart's truth. Thus you are in deep deep pain.

So you should ask yourself very carefully: "What do I want? What do I want with my own life, not hers? My own life?"


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

OutofRetirement said:


> *JULY 3, 2020
> 
> 
> as of AUGUST 14, 2020*
> ...


Because she still doesn’t make you and this marriage a priority.
She doesn’t intend to do the work to help YOU feel better... she mainly wants you to forget you need anything to move forward.

she is a schmuck. I’m not sure why you think it’s important to save this ‘marriage’ - she doesn’t.

she’s not sorry she cheated - she’s sorry she got caught. BIG difference! And when it’s like that - you’re better off leaving her behind.

you have been reconciling at all - you’ve been in limbo.

seriously, you’d have been better off if you’d kicked her out after one week of not giving you EVERY single thing you requested! You aren’t her priority!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BarelyStanding said:


> I'm dying on this hill because this is owed to me. Plus, hard evidence is never a bad thing in a divorce proceeding. I have become laser focused on getting this from her. If she pulls the I can't remember **** card, then great. I know what direction I need to go, and I WILL move in that direction regardless if she doesn't provide it. Maybe she does provide the timeline, and it is worse than what she told me, in which case I can leave at that point. She should have done this years ago, before causing me additional pain, but she didn't.
> 
> I know full well that I will be reopening the wounds- but since I don't have this to being with, they never really had a chance to heal. I already told her that when it is done (she's done about 3 pages of word vomit so far- I checked), I will be going camping for a week to clear my head, and I will then decide what direction I want to take from there.


Dont give up, pester her every single day, may her life a misery. Tell her she needs to cough it up. Is she working? Withhold time, money, attention, everything, remind her morning noon and night till you get it. 
I think you will never get past this. Time to seek a divorce lawyer.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

aine said:


> Dont give up, pester her every single day, may her life a misery. Tell her she needs to cough it up. Is she working? Withhold time, money, attention, everything, remind her morning noon and night till you get it.


Is this where you want to be when Jesus comes back?

Do you want to be someone’s tormentor and brow beat beat her until she finally breaks down and puts pen to paper (and even then, will you accept her timeline as the whole truth and nothing but the truth after 3.5 years? But that’s another topic for another day). 

You are already choosing to stay because there you are. 

If she wanted to work on this, she would. If you and the marriage really mattered, she would do the heavy lifting. 

You are choosing to stay every day that you are there so other than your whining and pestering, she really has no reason to write out some stupid timeline about an affair that you already know about. 

If this is really this crucial to you, then pack up, move out, start moving on with your own life without her and date and hook up with other chicks. 

If she really, truly wants to be with you she’ll step up to the plate and start doing some heavy lifting. 

If she doesn’t, then you’ll have your answer. 

If you are going to stay regardless of whether she gives you an adequate timeline or not, then why are you still chasing this windmill making a pest if yourself and just piling on more conflict. 

All-in or all-out. Poop or get off the pot.


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