# Raising bar vis-à-vis opposite sex



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

A recent post by an older virgin asking whether "losing it" to an escort is a good idea, and the subsequent discussion about psychological consequences for him got me thinking about a different question.

Has anyone else, due to shyness at a younger age, historically find himself calculating which women he could realistically be with, all things considered, as a weighted average (pun intended)? Cutting out the bottom quartile (you have to get it up) and the top quartile (to be realistic), and target girls who would appreciate the attention? And then after X years you get an opportunity to sleep with a truly attractive woman, and you realize the experience is much different due not just to the touch, or to the better shapes to hold on to (truly better, not simply bigger), but because your brain is overflowing with hormones from realizing you got the top reward billions of years of evolution have taught the male brain. Suddenly the bar is higher, but it seems unrealistic to proceed to hold it that high...

Update: Please comment only if you are a man who has had a similar experience.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

We're going deep with this one lol But seriously, yes. I don't know about the reward of billions of years of evolution but its pretty great to look down at a body that is "oh my god" beautiful.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
It doesn't affect me like that at all. I do not see women ordered from best to worse. I just see them ordered in terms of which would be best for ME - which requires that I be the best for them.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, I feel this way every time I have sex with my sex god husband. Yeeeeehawwwwww!!!! Thank you evolution!


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I think all males dream of having out of this world hot, long and vocal sex with a gorgeous, hot, orgasmic and sexy nubile...One that sucks him dry, has multiple orgasms etc....

But the reality is what we really want is a partner who loves us, knows what we like, likes what we do to them etc.

Of course I would love the hot rampant sex but what I really want is that emotional connection too.
I want to feel the bonding, the emotional closeness, the 'becoming one'....the joint orgasm that glues us....

I had all that once but not for years.....and I so miss it.

Hot rampant sex with a 'professional' lady might be exciting but its just a fcuk not real 'making love'.

God I sound pathetic!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You can actually have both the hot passionate sex and the connection and love.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Are you talking about the concept of 'settling' on sex with an average girl versus having sex with an hb9 or 10?

Not sure I understand the question. It's too cerebral for my brain box.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

moco82 said:


> Update: Please comment only if you are a man who has had a similar experience.


I'm not a guy, so I guess I'm out!!

:rofl:

(But I agree with everything Faithful Wife said...)


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

askari said:


> I think all males dream of having out of this world hot, long and vocal sex with a gorgeous, hot, orgasmic and sexy nubile...One that sucks him dry, has multiple orgasms etc....


It wasn't a dream. She really did wake me up at 4am this morning for exactly that.



askari said:


> But the reality is what we really want is a partner who loves us, knows what we like, likes what we do to them etc.


Yes, that *too*!


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Are you talking about the concept of 'settling' on sex with an average girl versus having sex with an hb9 or 10?
> 
> Not sure I understand the question. It's too cerebral for my brain box.


Realizing that the sex you'd been having up to that point was, well, subpar without that extra brain stimulation that comes from knowing you're doing it with 9 or 10. You may have been able to convince yourself that looks and shapes do not the quality of sex make (vs. love, connection, etc.), but that mantra falls flat after the actual experience. This may be a topic only men understand, given that the visual is almost a separate sense that women do not possess (for their benefit, by the way).


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

askari said:


> But the reality is what we really want is a partner who loves us, knows what we like, likes what we do to them etc.


Sorry I didn't outline the scope. I'm not proposing to juxtapose sex vs. love, looks vs. connection, but how a man's very perception of what sex is and what good sex is changes after an experience--and not due to the motions and words of that experience, but purely the physical features of the partner.

I compare it to how I perceived wine back when only cheap varieties fit my wallet to after being introduced to good wine.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

It depends. How did he achieve the taste of what he considers to be finer fare? Was it a one off, likely to never happen again experience, or did this hypothetical person change something about his looks and/or status that makes it more likely that he'll continue to have relatively likely access to the kind of women he considers to be more sexually alluring?

I think it's only unrealistic to keep whatever bar a person sets higher IF the experience was a truly unexpected, bizarre exception. But that's not always the case.

A former fat boy who settled for less than he genuinely desired, but later carves out a ripped, lean body that consistently attracts the kind of women who do it for him is in a totally different boat than some out of shape, average looking Joe who paid a gorgeous call girl to simulate an experience he's likely not going to replicate (unpaid) in his current state.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

moco82 said:


> Update: Please comment only if you are a man who has had a similar experience.


Response to your update: I'll answer if I wish.

And yes, my whole outlook on sex has changed ever since being with a mega HOT top of the food chain of evolution man. And yes, it is superbly better than any sex I had before him. Yummmmmm. That tall, dark, handsome thing, mother nature really did understand what women want. Those beautiful, big, talented hands. Those nice white teeth and winning smile. That full head of hair. 

Again, thank you evolution!


----------



## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

jaquen said:


> A former fat boy who settled for less than he genuinely desired, but later carves out a ripped, lean body that consistently attracts the kind of women who do it for him...


It's not as great as one might think (for some of us with..."issues" that is)...Trust me on that.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

moco82 said:


> Realizing that the sex you'd been having up to that point was, well, subpar without that extra brain stimulation that comes from knowing you're doing it with 9 or 10. You may have been able to convince yourself that looks and shapes do not the quality of sex make (vs. love, connection, etc.), but that mantra falls flat after the actual experience. This may be a topic only men understand, given that the visual is almost a separate sense that women do not possess (for their benefit, by the way).



If you really believe women aren't visual you're sadly misinformed. We are. In my experience the men who think this are the ones who think they can punch way above their level, but it seldom works. When it doesnt happem they walk around mad that women dont like nice guys. 

You might be able to convince said woman to sleep with you but she's not going to be really hot for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Right. We're hot for HOTTTT guys, just like you're hot for hot girls. It's BIOLOGY, remember?

So yeah, make him tall, make him have a big peen, make him have lots of hair...these are the things that mother nature herself has held in escrow for us women to yearn for. And we do.


----------



## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. We're hot for HOTTTT guys, just like you're hot for hot girls. It's BIOLOGY, remember?
> 
> So yeah, make him tall, make him have a big peen, make him have lots of hair...these are the things that mother nature herself has held in escrow for us women to yearn for. And we do.


I wonder how much is down to mother nature and how much to socialised norms.

I'm sure there is loads of research on this, but just looking at art the 'ideal' female form has changed hugely over the last 2000 years, which cannot surely be explained by evolutionary biology.

Suggest the same applies to the 'ideal' male form. At one time is was about their legs in tights, or their moustaches, or their 6 packs, or their dark (but often not too dark) skin.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But mother nature did make "all males" want blondes with big boobs?

This is the point I'm actually making, if you can read between the lines. It is all silly and stupid.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

moco82 said:


> Realizing that the sex you'd been having up to that point was, well, subpar without that extra brain stimulation that comes from knowing you're doing it with 9 or 10. You may have been able to convince yourself that looks and shapes do not the quality of sex make (vs. love, connection, etc.), but that mantra falls flat after the actual experience. This may be a topic only men understand, given that the visual is almost a separate sense that women do not possess (for their benefit, by the way).


I will not comment on the experience,

but stating that women do not have the visual component is not supported by current research into female sexual arousal.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

optimalprimus said:


> I wonder how much is down to mother nature and how much to socialised norms.
> 
> I'm sure there is loads of research on this, but just looking at art the 'ideal' female form has changed hugely over the last 2000 years, which cannot surely be explained by evolutionary biology.
> 
> Suggest the same applies to the 'ideal' male form. At one time is was about their legs in tights, or their moustaches, or their 6 packs, or their dark (but often not too dark) skin.


Excellent excellent point. I have wondered about that many times myself and I certainly do think we are a lot more influenced by society (which builds off of biological desires but then makes us concentrate on specific features in a more heightened way) than we like to think we are.


----------



## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> But mother nature did make "all males" want blondes with big boobs?
> 
> This is the point I'm actually making, if you can read between the lines. It is all silly and stupid.


Sorry I'm too much of a caveman for thar between the lines stuff. A tall dark hairy caveman of course.

I didn't see anyone mention specific traits but agree that it is probably the same for both genders.

None of this means the supposition in the OP is silly though. It's entirely possible that the mental feeling of having sex with a 10 (whatever arbitrary societally detetmined basis for that) affects the experience of sex with other people.

Not for me personally though. I had a few of those 'wow' encounters when younger and they didn't really affect my view of other partners that I can tell.


----------



## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But mother nature did make "all males" want blondes with big boobs?


Umm....No...*grin*

I'm a "Salma Hayak" kinda guy myself. *giggle*


----------



## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

Sex is not better with hotter women on average. These women are usually terrible to average in bed. The lower you go as far as looks, the better the sex might be but the overall experience isn't better. Meaning lower seeded females exert more effort and are more than willing to do anything you tell them because they dont get many opportunities so they relish in that one shining moment. Higher ranked females are more apt to resistance in the bedroom because their true talent and selling point is their looks. Therefore they can be a cold fish as much as they like. But once you finish you might feel like you climbed mount everest. But in the midst of climbing it you feel like this isnt what its cracked up to be.

To me, the only reason a guy wants a hot girl is because he wants to tell his friends and show the world. Her being just hot doesnt make sex better. There needs to be other factors involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

optimalprimus said:


> None of this means the supposition in the OP is silly though. It's entirely possible that the mental feeling of having sex with a 10 (whatever arbitrary societally detetmined basis for that) affects the experience of sex with other people.


Right, that's why I responded, because it happened that way for me, too. The mental feeling of having sex with my 11+ husband has ruined me for anyone else in my life, ever. If we ended up single again, I'd have to go for a 12 because I will never go backward now that I've had THE BEST. And the best includes his physical attributes as well as being the best lover possible.

So I replied, because I absolutely agree.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MountainRunner said:


> Umm....No...*grin*
> 
> I'm a "Salma Hayak" kinda guy myself. *giggle*


You'll have to learn when I'm being sarcastic, friend. I know it is BS about the "only blonde and boobs"...but it is also BS that women aren't visual and that we don't want a hunk. Some evo-psyche theories are oh-so-convenient for men, and "men are more visual" is one of them. If it were true, it would mean a physical 10 woman would be with a physical 5 man and she would still be sexually hot for him, because evo-psyche.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

moco82 said:


> A recent post by an older virgin asking whether "losing it" to an escort is a good idea, and the subsequent discussion about psychological consequences for him got me thinking about a different question.
> 
> Has anyone else, due to shyness at a younger age, historically find himself calculating which women he could realistically be with, all things considered, as a weighted average (pun intended)? Cutting out the bottom quartile (you have to get it up) and the top quartile (to be realistic), and target girls who would appreciate the attention? And then after X years you get an opportunity to sleep with a truly attractive woman, and you realize the experience is much different due not just to the touch, or to the better shapes to hold on to (truly better, not simply bigger), but because your brain is overflowing with hormones from realizing you got the top reward billions of years of evolution have taught the male brain. Suddenly the bar is higher, but it seems unrealistic to proceed to hold it that high...
> 
> Update: Please comment only if you are a man who has had a similar experience.


Just so that I understand your OP correctly.....

You're saying that the outward appearance of a woman affects the sexual pleasure experienced by the man?

So sex with 'truly attractive' woman will automatically translate to fantastic sex for the man? :scratchhead:

To use a car analogy, the experience of driving a Lamborghini completely ruined you for any other car.....even if the driving experience was grindy/shaky, the clutch refused to go into gear or was slipping, and the transmission was noisy. The act of sitting behind the wheel of a Lamborghini, regardless of it actual driving capability, raised the bar so that now anything less than say a mid-level luxury sedan just doesn't feel right. Is that correct?


----------



## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> You'll have to learn when I'm being sarcastic, friend.


I know you were FW...I was just having a bit of fun with it myself. It is true though...I am definitely partial to latinas.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I have always loved wonderful diversity. Only type I know for sure I like is women lol


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MountainRunner said:


> I know you were FW...I was just having a bit of fun with it myself. It is true though...I am definitely partial to latinas.


I'm partial to 6'3" sex gods.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MountainRunner said:


> Umm....No...*grin*
> 
> I'm a "Salma Hayak" kinda guy myself. *giggle*



Hey, if I batted for the other team Salma Hayek would be on my list of possibilities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Meh. What I find attractive is totally unpredictable. If I gave a formula I could easily find someone matching that description that is completely unattractive to me. And I mean visually, not the whole person. I guess for me it is visual, to a large extent, but not in any easily defined way.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> If you really believe women aren't visual you're sadly misinformed. We are.





moco82 said:


> Update: Please comment only if you are a *man* who has had a similar experience.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So azteca....is your post meant to tell us that women shouldn't post on this thread, just because the OP said so?

Really?

Because um, no. We can reply anywhere we want. As do men reply in threads even when they are asked not to.

The mere fact of asking women not to respond is ridiculous.

Therefore, I will respond EXTRA just because.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

No FW, my post is meant to get you to respond EXTRA. So.. do my bidding.

/t/j

Not sure I understand the question, so I'd like to read some responses from men, to see if I can contribute something meaningful


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oh good! Here I am posting again, just for you.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> If you really believe women aren't visual you're sadly misinformed. We are.[/size]


No, my post was poorly worded. Good reminder not to write in a haste. A mis-worded sentence can generate 3 offtopic pages, but good riddance.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I, for one, was happy to have the opportunity to talk about your topic because I do feel the same way about my husband. Thank you!


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Lila said:


> You're saying that the outward appearance of a woman affects the sexual pleasure experienced by the man?
> To use a car analogy, the experience of driving a Lamborghini completely ruined you for any other car.....even if the driving experience was grindy/shaky, the clutch refused to go into gear or was slipping, and the transmission was noisy.


It does. It offsets the shortcomings of the experience or partner's lack of skill--but I don't know to which threshold. And if there aren't many shortcomings, then your head is about to explode from happiness! Just like when you're in love, for some time (sometimes a long time, in my experience), you may be on Cloud 9 from mediocre sex. Perhaps same biochemistry is at work when you score sex with a 9 or a 10. It seems some people on this thread are sharing what sex in love with a 9 or a 10 is like; it must be as fantastic as they say.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes it is...especially if you are both 9's or 10's, because without that, then you know the feeling isn't mutual.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because um, no. We can reply anywhere we want. As do men reply in threads even when they are asked not to.


This is off topic, but: I respect requests for men, or any people not sought in the poll sample, not to comment. Just like I wouldn't provide a DNA sample for a study of redhead twins, because I'm not a readhead and not a twin.

Not that I wouldn't value your input per se. I'll admit it was a silly idea to care about sampling on a public internet forum, so it's OK that the thread predictably went in all sorts of directions. You did provide interesting feedback, so perhaps what is in order is a unisex topic in the "Sex in Marriage" section.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

moco82 said:


> No, my post was poorly worded. Good reminder not to write in a haste. A mis-worded sentence can generate 3 offtopic pages, but good riddance.



Np. The first thing I noticed about my hb was that he had a gorgeous body and cute face, and i was extremely attracted to him. Obviously that wouldn't have been enough to build a relationship on, and it wouldn't necessarily make him a good lover. Which he is.

Hotness is not representative of bedroom skills or character/partner potential. 

Women understand the visual thing a lot more then many men think. Many men have the idea that women care about status; maybe on some level some do but it doesn't equal attraction. The absolute biggest mistake you can make is to get involved with a woman who's interested in the status you can provide without being really into you simply because you're into her. That's a great way to end up sexless or with a cheater as she meets men she is into.

Just consider this when making your choices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think you're on pretty safe ground posting in the Man Cave and asking for only male opinions. Several of the men don't seem to understand your point and none of the women seem to so I think your request was right on. (grabbing flame resistant gear..


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


>



Please, do you think I could start a thread on how being with rich men made me value a man's money more, or how being with a guy that had a huge c0ck made me think less of average c0cks, and request that only women answer because only women understand our need for more money and huge c0cks? Substitute appropriate female attributes for c0cks of course. 

Men would have plenty to say and their thoughts would be appreciated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Just consider this when making your choices.


I thought I was being wise and ended up masturbating to memories of hot bodies under me. Gotta shoot for having it all like FaithfulWife; or die tryin'.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Please, do you think I could start a thread on how being with rich men made me value a man's money more, or how being with a guy that had a huge c0ck made me think less of average c0cks... Men would have plenty to say and their thoughts would be appreciated.


I wouldn't dare comment in such a thread. Even I had something objective and valid to say, it would always risk being viewed through the prism of suspicion that I'm getting defensive.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Please, do you think I could start a thread on how being with rich men made me value a man's money more, or how being with a guy that had a huge c0ck made me think less of average c0cks, and request that only women answer because only women understand our need for more money and huge c0cks? Substitute appropriate female attributes for c0cks of course.


Sounds like a fascinating idea for a thread. Why don't you go right ahead. So I can ignore it.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> I think you're on pretty safe ground posting in the Man Cave and asking for only male opinions. Several of the men don't seem to understand your point and none of the women seem to so I think your request was right on. (grabbing flame resistant gear..


But I do perfectly get his point, that's been my experience, too.

Hotter = better.

Pretty easy.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Please, do you think I could start a thread on how being with rich men made me value a man's money more, or *how being with a guy that had a huge c0ck made me think less of average c0cks*, and request that only women answer because only women understand our need for more money and huge c0cks? Substitute appropriate female attributes for c0cks of course.
> 
> Men would have plenty to say and their thoughts would be appreciated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This has been my experience, too. But truly better, not simply bigger.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

askari said:


> I think all males dream of having out of this world hot, long and vocal sex with a gorgeous, hot, orgasmic and sexy nubile...One that sucks him dry, has multiple orgasms etc....
> 
> But the reality is what we really want is a partner who loves us, knows what we like, likes what we do to them etc.
> 
> ...


I don't see the dichotomy, sorry.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> But I do perfectly get his point, that's been my experience, too.
> 
> Hotter = better.
> 
> Pretty easy.


I dunno.

Some of the most "truly hot" women I've bedded have been kinda 'meh' in the sack.

I mean, they look gorgeous laying there naked.

But then, you know... they just kinda layed there... naked.

Got used to being serviced, I guess.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, obviously the OP didn't care about her skills as he said as much. Just being hot made up for lack of skill. 

For me, I'm with you. I need hot + skill.

But hot is still > not hot.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> But I do perfectly get his point, that's been my experience, too.
> 
> Hotter = better.
> 
> Pretty easy.


But the thread didn't start there. It was about "looks league" and how men select a range of women based on appearance they think are attainable. Then at some point they bed a woman who is higher then their self determined range and what happens from that point on. Has the experience "raised the bar" or shifted the range up? If so, is attainment of the first "10" a new norm or are you hurting themselves by forever looking to duplicate that experience that might have been such an outlier that it will never happen again? Somewhere it turned into love and relationships and if the sex is good or not etc.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> But the thread didn't start there. It was about "looks league" and how men select a range of women based on appearance they think are attainable. Then at some point they bed a woman who is higher then their self determined range and what happens from that point on. Has the experience "raised the bar" or shifted the range up? If so, is attainment of the first "10" a new norm or are you hurting yourself by forever looking to duplicate that experience that might have been such an outlier that it will never happen again? Somewhere it turned into love and relationships and where the sex is good or not etc.


I had sex with my husband long before we were in love. (Well actually it happened pretty close after that, he he).

So my answer still agrees with the OP. I had assessed what hotness level I could attain, I had been with this and that, I took out for the top and the bottom, all that was true for me, too.

So what is it you think I don't get? Yes the experience raised the bar for me. Just so happened I then married him. If I was to be single again, yes a 10 would be my new norm in dating.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, obviously the OP didn't care about her skills as he said as much. Just being hot made up for lack of skill.
> 
> For me, I'm with you. I need hot + skill.
> 
> But hot is still > not hot.


Let me 'poke' at that a little bit.

Would you prefer a 10 looks guy that's a 8 in the sack or an 8 guy that's a 10 in the sack?

Dammit. I just answered it myself. Take the 10 guy and teach him how to be a 10 in the sack.

Ok, forget it.

Instead, how do you rate skill?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Shoto1984 said:


> But the thread didn't start there. It was about "looks league" and how men select a range of women based on appearance they think are attainable. Then at some point they bed a woman who is higher then their self determined range and what happens from that point on. Has the experience "raised the bar" or shifted the range up? If so, is attainment of the first "10" a new norm or are you hurting themselves by forever looking to duplicate that experience that might have been such an outlier that it will never happen again? Somewhere it turned into love and relationships and if the sex is good or not etc.


I have a very simple, yet terrifying solution.

How about, if you're single, you hit on women you're attracted to.

Even if you think they're out of your league. Hell, _especially_ if you think they're out of your league.

You might be surprised.

And stop thinking you have a 'league' at all.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> Instead, how do you rate skill?


By how much I'm saying "mmmmm, you're awesome".

(note: this is not a reliable test in the wild however, because a woman may say this but not mean it)


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> By how much I'm saying "mmmmm, you're awesome".
> 
> (note: this is not a reliable test in the wild however, because a woman may say this but not mean it)


Wait...

Women _lie_ about that sort of thing?

Uh oh.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Faithful Wife;12341226
If I was to be single again said:


> OK so if you found yourself single again and experienced ups and downs of dating in pursuit of your next 10 you'd have something for the thread.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Shoto1984 said:


> OK so if you found yourself single again and experienced ups and downs of dating in pursuit of your next 10 you'd have something for the thread.


...giggity... ups and downs with a 10 sounds fun.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry Shoto...I still get to contribute no matter what your opinion is of my experiences. 

In fact, my experiences in this matter would help a lot of people to learn more about. And that's why I'm sharing. Feel free to ignore me.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

marduk said:


> I have a very simple, yet terrifying solution.
> 
> How about, if you're single, you hit on women you're attracted to.
> 
> ...


I'm not espousing the concept I'm explaining it as a male who's been there and relates to the OP's experience. Right or wrong, my life experience as taught be to go the other way. I see a 10 now and think......"not worth the effort, drama, bs etc" and keep walking.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Shoto1984 said:


> But the thread didn't start there. It was about "looks league" and how men select a range of women based on appearance they think are attainable. Then at some point they bed a woman who is higher then their self determined range and what happens from that point on. Has the experience "raised the bar" or shifted the range up? If so, is attainment of the first "10" a new norm or are you hurting themselves by forever looking to duplicate that experience that might have been such an outlier that it will never happen again? Somewhere it turned into love and relationships and if the sex is good or not etc.


Thanks for explaining the OP like this.

----------------

I'll go back to lurking now since I can't speak for either side of the argument {_just an average looking woman whose partners were all within the same range_}.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Its a discussion worth having and an interesting life experience. Just trying to get back to it.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Everybody has a built in set of limiting beliefs of what opposite sex people they can realistically score with.

Is it realistic? Maybe.

What I'm saying is that underlying belief itself is the problem.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> Everybody has a built in set of limiting beliefs of what opposite sex people they can realistically score with.
> 
> Is it realistic? Maybe.
> 
> What I'm saying is that underlying belief itself is the problem.


Or maybe seeing people as if they are objects to look at is the problem?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

marduk said:


> Everybody has a built in set of limiting beliefs of what opposite sex people they can realistically score with.
> 
> Is it realistic? Maybe.
> 
> What I'm saying is that underlying belief itself is the problem.


I think it's very realistic. Most people end up with someone of perceived comparable attraction levels.

Which is why Brad Pitt/Rosie O' Donell or Halle Berry/Steve Buscemi like pairings are always going to turn heads and spark reaction/speculation.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Even if you think they're out of your league. Hell, _especially_ if you think they're out of your league.
> 
> You might be surprised.
> 
> And stop thinking you have a 'league' at all.


This mirrors my experience. Many years ago in Uni, I was introduced to a hot woman, a brunette with blue eyes which always gets my attention. She was 'out of my league'. So, I didn't pay her much mind. I wasn't particularly amusing. Wasn't dressed well - a student in the student bar. I did nothing out of the ordinary. The next time we spoke was when she put her hand in mine and said "We're leaving".

I learned two important lessons that night (only one of which s relevant to this thread). 

Lesson: I am clearly a poor judge of who is in "my league", So, I binned the concept entirely. Who is "in your league" is just a state of mind. It's also why I find talk of 9's and 10's a bit juvenile. I have three categories:

a) Not today (putting it politely)
b) Women I find attractive
c) The feelings clearly mutual

Attractiveness is very digital for me. Either someone is attractive for whatever reason. Or they're not. I've not spent much time analysing things beyond that.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

marduk said:


> I have a very simple, yet terrifying solution. How about, if you're single, you hit on women you're attracted to. Even if you think they're out of your league. Hell, _especially_ if you think they're out of your league. You might be surprised. And stop thinking you have a 'league' at all.


Here we go with the hippie talk.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> But the thread didn't start there. It was about "looks league" and how men select a range of women based on appearance they think are attainable. Then at some point they bed a woman who is higher then their self determined range and what happens from that point on. Has the experience "raised the bar" or shifted the range up?


Shoto, I wish I could write as eloquently and succinctly as you.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Wow, thanks moco. I'm going to frame that


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Shoto1984 said:


> Its a discussion worth having and an interesting life experience. Just trying to get back to it.]


I agree with you. I think it is. I also think sometimes on forums we deviate from the intent, but the deviation continues to have some merit. I for one would love to hear more men's opinions on it. I think people contesting the original post are rounding out the discussion on what it means on a societal level. One's perception on one's own actions are illuminating. Another's perception on one's own actions are illuminating as well.



azteca1986 said:


> This mirrors my experience. Many years ago in Uni, I was introduced to a hot woman, a brunette with blue eyes which always gets my attention. She was 'out of my league'. So, I didn't pay her much mind. I wasn't particularly amusing. Wasn't dressed well - a student in the student bar. I did nothing out of the ordinary. The next time we spoke was when she put her hand in mine and said "We're leaving".
> 
> I learned two important lessons that night (only one of which s relevant to this thread).
> 
> ...





marduk said:


> Everybody has a built in set of limiting beliefs of what opposite sex people they can realistically score with.
> 
> Is it realistic? Maybe.
> 
> What I'm saying is that underlying belief itself is the problem.


I agree that the underlying belief is a problem. It sets oneself up for limitations. As azteca pointed out, when he gave himself the limitations he ended up ignoring a girl who was actually interested in him.

I would be interested to know how the numbering system came to be such a big part of men's dating lives. 

What is a 10? What is a 1?

My fiance wrote himself off as ever being with me. That is not because I am super attractive. I am a normal looking woman who you would probably not look twice on if you were walking down the street. I am not ugly nor extremely beautiful.

However, my fiance is from Mexico. He has more indigenous looking features than European features. All his life, he heard disparaging remarks about his features as being ugly. In particular the "asian" eyes and the wider and flatter nose. More traditional looking European features are considered to be more beautiful in Mexican culture (that itself has been thought of as a byproduct of colonization) and for a man who looks like him to think he could get with a white woman was impossible. 

He wrote himself off and resigned himself to desire me (and a relationship with me) but not to ever entertain the possibility of actually being with me. 

I found and find all the features of himself that he wrote off as being unattractive as being extremely attractive to me. 

I agree with Azteca. It is just a state of mind. What you might consider to be limiting yourself may be what is attracting the other person.


----------



## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

azteca1986 said:


> This mirrors my experience. Many years ago in Uni, I was introduced to a hot woman, a brunette with blue eyes which always gets my attention. She was 'out of my league'. So, I didn't pay her much mind. I wasn't particularly amusing. Wasn't dressed well - a student in the student bar. I did nothing out of the ordinary. The next time we spoke was when she put her hand in mine and said "We're leaving".


Had a very similar experience myself. One time after work I stopped in at the local bar for a beer. I was a software engineer in Silicon Valley at the time and I wore the typical "geek attire" (jeans, t-shirt, tennis shoes) and almost every other guy in the bar wore a suit. There was this drop dead gorgeous sultry, swarthy young lady that all the guys were falling over. I was there to drink...that's it. I figured that a woman who has her pick of men wouldn't pay me no mind anyway. The next thing I know she plants herself right next to me and sez..."Buy me a drink?"...It was a very "fun" evening to say the least.  *grin*


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

moco82 said:


> ....you got the top reward billions of years of evolution have taught the male brain. Suddenly the bar is higher, but it seems unrealistic to proceed to hold it that high...


I'm not sure I understand the question. My BIL's wife is 5'-2" and sweet. My wife is 6'-3" and dangerous. Both women are pretty, but we're talking night and day here. 

What exactly has evolution taught the male brain?


----------



## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> What is a 10? What is a 1?


A true 10 is if you can walk down Lincoln road in Miami Beach on a midday afternoon and turn heads. 5000 to 1 odds.

1= Any member of Honey boo boo's family.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Tubbalard said:


> A true 10 is if you can walk down Lincoln road in Miami Beach on a midday afternoon and turn heads. 5000 to 1 odds.
> 
> 1= Any member of Honey boo boo's family.


Hahah.

I just prefaced what I had written to show that this scale can slide due to culture.

But I definitely think a member of Honey Boo Boo's family will be a 1 anywhere.

But the less we talk about that trainwreck the better.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes the experience raised the bar for me. Just so happened I then married him. If I was to be single again, yes a 10 would be my new norm in dating.


This is the nuance Shoto is pointing out. You (forunately) are theorizing about life after the experience, whereas he, as at the thread invites, talks about his life after the experience in practice.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

ocotillo said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. My BIL's wife is 5'-2" and sweet. My wife is 6'-3" and dangerous. Both women are pretty, but we're talking night and day here.
> 
> What exactly has evolution taught the male brain?


 

The OP was asking if bedding a super attractive woman (whatever that means to you), when you never thought you would, changed your outlook on what was available to you. And if so, for the better or worse... That's it.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. My BIL's wife is 5'-2" and sweet. My wife is 6'-3" and dangerous. Both women are pretty, but we're talking night and day here.
> 
> What exactly has evolution taught the male brain?


That whatever kind of beauty you perceive as significantly above average will unleash a reward mechanism in your brain, and you will find it hard to enjoy sex with women you consider less beautiful than that recently attained gold standard.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

MountainRunner said:


> Had a very similar experience myself.


Jumping on the bandwagon. A beautiful girl who used to date a college friend (who had no problems with women), but broke up with before he and I really became friends, turned out to bar-tend at a club in a nearby resort town, where I had worked during the summer. Not knowing her much beyond hello/good-bye, I chatted up a bit, and wrote down her number to stay in touch. I threw it out with other junk from my pocket the next day, figuring she was just polite to give it. The next time I saw her at the club she was wondering, semi-jokingly asking my friend standing nearby: "He's not gonna call me, is he?" P.S. It didn't go far at all, but still. It was years before I had a similar chance.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

moco82 said:


> This is the nuance Shoto is pointing out. You (forunately) are theorizing about life after the experience, whereas he, as at the thread invites, talks about his life after the experience in practice.


You're really trying hard to disqualify my experience for some reason...but my experience is relevant. Are you saying that somehow, since I have not "tried it out" by being single again, I would be surprised to find that I no longer had these higher standards I have that are raised due to the hotness of my husband? Like somehow I don't know how I will feel about who I would and wouldn't have sex with, just because I'm not single? 



Trust me, I don't have to date again to know that I'd never date or have sex down from where I'm at now.


----------



## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I had sex with my husband long before we were in love. (Well actually it happened pretty close after that, he he).
> 
> So my answer still agrees with the OP. I had assessed what hotness level I could attain, I had been with this and that, I took out for the top and the bottom, all that was true for me, too.
> 
> So what is it you think I don't get? Yes the experience raised the bar for me. Just so happened I then married him. If I was to be single again, yes a 10 would be my new norm in dating.


I honestly don't think answering this question hypothetically is much use. Your current partner is your hottest and you're presumably in love with them. 

Doesn't reveal much to me other than that you really love your hubby, which is great for you!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> You're really trying hard to disqualify my experience for some reason...but my experience is relevant. Are you saying that somehow, since I have not "tried it out" by being single again, I would be surprised to find that I no longer had these higher standards I have that are raised due to the hotness of my husband? Like somehow I don't know how I will feel about who I would and wouldn't have sex with, just because I'm not single?
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, I don't have to date again to know that I'd never date or have sex down from where I'm at now.


There is a distinct difference between your situation and the one that the OP talks about.

Your husband is good looking and very good in bed. He's HOT in every way.

The OP is only talking about looks. He even says that the looks make up for her being a mediocre sexual partner.

I doubt you would have fallen for your husband were he only good looking. You wanted the whole package.

Makes sense to me. A guy with a hot body is .. hot. But if he's empty between the ears and a dud in bed... bleh....


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Tubbalard said:


> Sex is not better with hotter women on average. These women are usually terrible to average in bed. The lower you go as far as looks, the better the sex might be but the overall experience isn't better. Meaning lower seeded females exert more effort and are more than willing to do anything you tell them because they dont get many opportunities so they relish in that one shining moment. Higher ranked females are more apt to resistance in the bedroom because their true talent and selling point is their looks. Therefore they can be a cold fish as much as they like. But once you finish you might feel like you climbed mount everest. But in the midst of climbing it you feel like this isnt what its cracked up to be.
> 
> To me, the only reason a guy wants a hot girl is because he wants to tell his friends and show the world. Her being just hot doesnt make sex better. There needs to be other factors involved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think a lot of men probably tell themselves that lower seeded women as you describe them do more and offer more etc versus hotter women.

Yet it isn't really true, lots of hot/pretty women are terrific sexual and relationship partners, just like lots of not hot/pretty women make poor sexual and relationship partners as well.

I've shared sex with plenty of pretty women, unsurprisingly most of those experiences and some of those relationships have been terrific.

This idea that women pretty or otherwise desire a man mostly because he's employed is a great catch etc is naive. Women like men also care about looks as well. I have been very fortunate sexually because looks and personality mattered to the women who wanted me.

The only reason this man has been with pretty women is because I was attracted to them as they we're likewise attracted to me, I've never cared what my friends or the world think about who I'm sharing sex with.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm partial to 6'3" sex gods.


I like mine taller as well!


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Shoto1984 said:


> The OP was asking if bedding a super attractive woman (whatever that means to you), when you never thought you would, changed your outlook on what was available to you. And if so, for the better or worse... That's it.


I've been bedded by a number of super attractive women, I never thought it was possible or not possible, that said having pretty women want me was probably good for my self esteem.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

askari said:


> I think all males dream of having out of this world hot, long and vocal sex with a gorgeous, hot, orgasmic and sexy nubile...One that sucks him dry, has multiple orgasms etc....
> 
> But the reality is what we really want is a partner who loves us, knows what we like, likes what we do to them etc.
> 
> ...


One can have an absolutely wanton and hunger filled, very lustful sexual experience with a tremendous emotional connection with someone you're not in love with. I as others have, had that plenty of times.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Shoto1984 said:


> The OP was asking if bedding a super attractive woman (whatever that means to you), when you never thought you would, changed your outlook on what was available to you. And if so, for the better or worse... That's it.


Certainly changed my outlook, because of the nature of how that encounter came about I don't stop with "Wow, I'm having sex with a very hot woman" (which did cross my mind), but on to "Hot women want to have sex with me". 



moco82 said:


> Suddenly the bar is higher, but it seems unrealistic to proceed to hold it that high...


Why is it unrealistic? The way I think is; if it happened once, it will happen again. And did. I suspect the difference between us is in self-esteem. 



Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I found and find all the features of himself that he wrote off as being unattractive as being extremely attractive to me.


Which ultimately is all that matters, to both of you. I find the numbering system beyond crass. I'm an 8, she's a 5 so she'll try harder in bed because I'm doing her a favour to be with me... Just a horrible mindset. Erroneous too. I've not found any correlation between looks and how good in bed somebody might be. I suppose believing that might be comforting to some. My experience is that there are plenty of good looking women who are kind, thoughtful, don't take themselves or their looks too seriously and can be... shock horror... intelligent and good company too. And the few I've been with have spanned okay to great in bed.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> You're really trying hard to disqualify my experience for some reason...but my experience is relevant.


I think it's the opposite FW. You seem to be trying hard to qualify your experience when it's:


A. Not the situation the OP is conjecturing on.
B. You're not the sex he asked the view of.

So even if your experience was exactly what he asked for, your perspective isn't. Obviously you're free to share whatever you want, we all are, but I don't think there's an issue here with the OP disqualifying your attempts to share. They're insightful, but they aren't what he asked for, from whom he requested them. If any of us are going to continue posting out of the specific perimeters of the OP, which happens, we should at least acknowledge so.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There is a distinct difference between your situation and the one that the OP talks about.
> 
> Your husband is good looking and very good in bed. He's HOT in every way.
> 
> ...


However...even if he was blank between the ears and a dud in bed, he'd still be hotter than my previous lovers and this STILL would have affected me. I know this for sure.

But you're right...the boys want to pretend this doesn't apply to women, we aren't as visual, and we of course never have anything relevant to say when they have decided this is so.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think it's the opposite FW. You seem to be trying hard to qualify your experience when it's:
> 
> 
> A. Not the situation the OP is conjecturing on.
> ...


As if people need to have a lot of etiquette around here and "acknowledge" that we aren't talking within the parameters set by the OP?

Seriously?

Oh, or do you mean, just me? Or just women?

Because I've made quite a lot of posts that people feel free to post on, even if they have nothing I believe is relevant to say. 

I have no idea why you are even saying this as you've done the same.

We're all free to post anything that isn't against the rules. Trying to scold me isn't going to make my message any less relevant.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

While generally setting the bar higher having consistently had some beautiful women, or very attractive but much younger women, I am sometimes still very attracted to more "average" women with wonderful personalities (and great sexual skills). However, no matter how beautiful or exotic, they won't keep my interest if they are not ALSO good, interesting people with skill in the bedroom.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> However...even if he was blank between the ears and a dud in bed, he'd still be hotter than my previous lovers and this STILL would have affected me. I know this for sure.
> 
> But you're right...the boys want to pretend this doesn't apply to women, we aren't as visual, and we of course never have anything relevant to say when they have decided this is so.


And don't forget that women have to have an emotional connection before they can even think about having sex with a man...


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> As if people need to have a lot of etiquette around here and "acknowledge" that we aren't talking within the parameters set by the OP?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...


Nope, you're missing the point. 

This isn't about somebody trying to suppress you because you're a woman. Lets not insult each other's intelligence.

YOU accused the OP of "trying hard" to "disqualify" your experience. No he didn't. He made it clear what kind of experience he was interested in, and from whom. You're free to offer whatever experience and perspective you like, it's an open thread, but what's the point of you trying so hard yourself to get the OP to acknowledge your experience when it simply does NOT fit and you are NOT whom he requested said perspective from?

It's sometimes OK not to be included. It's sometimes OK to not have the view point or perspective that somebody is asking for. I don't know why this bothers you so much but it's become an issue with you in threads like this time and again.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think that looking at very attractive women as unattainable and creating a range of attainable women in your head is something many boys/men do. Most of us were not the homecoming king or the total outcast but somewhere in between. Moving past that probably (hopefully) occurs with age and experience. However, for those of us that can relate to the premise, was it a "chicken and egg " type thing for you? Did hooking up with someone you thought was unattainable change the way you viewed yourself and thus similar events followed in your life or did you change (attitude, accomplishment, confidence) and then you found yourself encountering these opportunities?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

moco82 said:


> Jumping on the bandwagon. A beautiful girl who used to date a college friend (who had no problems with women), but broke up with before he and I really became friends, turned out to bar-tend at a club in a nearby resort town, where I had worked during the summer. Not knowing her much beyond hello/good-bye, I chatted up a bit, and wrote down her number to stay in touch. I threw it out with other junk from my pocket the next day, figuring she was just polite to give it. The next time I saw her at the club she was wondering, semi-jokingly asking my friend standing nearby: "He's not gonna call me, is he?" P.S. It didn't go far at all, but still. It was years before I had a similar chance.


Was this truly a one off or do you have self esteem issues?

I know that when I, a fat kid/teen who was a classic good boy little boy, lost a lot of weight and suddenly had some gorgeous women expressing interest in me the idea that they could TRULY be attracted to me was so foreign and absurd. Didn't matter how many women would tell me how good looking and attractive I was, it just didn't click. 

Answering that question will help you answer the part of your OP where you wonder if you can permanently raise the bar. How attractive are you?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Nope, you're missing the point.
> 
> This isn't about somebody trying to suppress you because you're a woman. Lets not insult each other's intelligence.
> 
> ...




My experience is relevant. You and the OP are free to pretend it isn't.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> I think that looking at very attractive women as unattainable and creating a range of attainable women in your head is something many boys/men do. Most of us were not the homecoming king or the total outcast but somewhere in between. Moving past that probably (hopefully) occurs with age and experience. However, for those of us that can relate to the premise, was it a "chicken and egg " type thing for you? Did hooking up with someone you thought was unattainable change the way you viewed yourself and thus similar events followed in your life or did you change (attitude, accomplishment, confidence) and then you found yourself encountering these opportunities?


And this is something I simply can't relate to. I have never once felt that any particular woman was unattainable or out of my league.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> My experience is relevant. You and the OP are free to pretend it isn't.


You don't actually get to decide what's relevant in the eyes of the person asking the question. If a man came on here asking for male experience with prostate issues and you started talking about vaginal discharge it wouldn't be relevant just because you think so.

And please don't make this about me; I'm not the only person who corrected your view point, at least two others did too. I happen to think your views in this thread, on the whole, are awesome and insightful. Pointing out that they're not relevant to the OP, when you're accusing HIM of disqualifying you, is not the same as me disqualifying your experience. 

But we're at an impasse here and I'm not going to derail this thread.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

moco82 said:


> Realizing that the sex you'd been having up to that point was, well, subpar without that extra brain stimulation that comes from knowing you're doing it with 9 or 10. You may have been able to convince yourself that looks and shapes do not the quality of sex make (vs. love, connection, etc.), but that mantra falls flat after the actual experience. This may be a topic only men understand, given that the visual is almost a separate sense that women do not possess (for their benefit, by the way).


Let me see if I got this straight.

You are saying you had subpar sex for years with 'average' women but when you finally nailed a 'super hottie' you found out it was much more satisfying? That the package DID match the contents?

Um...I think I hear my mom calling me.

I appreciate the honesty of the question, but I can't see any good coming from the theme of this thread (at least nothing I can't make worse)


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> You're really trying hard to disqualify my experience for some reason...but my experience is relevant.


I welcome your sharing of your experience as it overlaps in scope, but it is the "afterlife" that I was really after.



> Are you saying that somehow, since I have not "tried it out" by being single again, I would be surprised to find that I no longer had these higher standards I have that are raised due to the hotness of my husband?


No. Not what I'm saying. I (and you) have no way of knowing whether you'd have retained the standard (effortlessly or with great effort), lowered it, or even raised it further. And what ups and downs you would have gone through. What mistakes you would have committed along the way. What triumphs you would have celebrated along the way. What lessons you would have learned along the way. The purpose of the survey was to learn how it played out along the way.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> However, for those of us that can relate to the premise, was it a "chicken and egg " type thing for you? Did hooking up with someone you thought was unattainable change the way you viewed yourself and thus similar events followed in your life or did you change (attitude, accomplishment, confidence) and then you found yourself encountering these opportunities?


Once again, hats off to Shoto for steering the topic on track. I wish I thought of inserting the "chicken and egg" idiom in the original post. My experience was definitely that a serendipitous experience conceived the very idea that I don't need to look for flaws in potential partners that might make them pay less attention to higher-ranked males.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> I think that looking at very attractive women as unattainable and creating a range of attainable women in your head is something many boys/men do. Most of us were not the homecoming king or the total outcast but somewhere in between. Moving past that probably (hopefully) occurs with age and experience. However, for those of us that can relate to the premise, was it a "chicken and egg " type thing for you? Did hooking up with someone you thought was unattainable change the way you viewed yourself and thus similar events followed in your life or did you change (attitude, accomplishment, confidence) and then you found yourself encountering these opportunities?


I've never been with what I consider a ten. They usually moved away from where I live and I haven't searched the big city. So, all I can post about is my experience and say that there was one woman years ago that in my estimation was very pretty and was very attractive to me. No, I did not think I could "get her". I did try. I figured I was at my peak in my early 30's and didn't have a thing to lose. Well, she did like me and we seemed to be falling in love. I left her for reasons which had nothing to do with who she was, but only a realisation of my own limitations in being a responsible adult. I just didn't think I could handle what was set before me. I did not find, or even consider that I would only have another woman like that. I did not give up on the idea altogether. I just let things flow naturally. I did not find another so-called "ten". I know of no woman, even my second wife, who could live up to that woman's place in my mind. While unrealistic to compare, I never expected anyone to actually live up to her. I just hoped to find qualities in the next that were similar. I figured that's the best I could do. Physically, I found someone with a "lower number", but there were other things that attracted me to her, though in retrospect, none of them measured up to the past. I do not believe it is healthy to compare. It does no good, since no one is perfect and we all change. So, I didn't look for someone exactly like her, only someone who had similar qualities. If based on simply looks, I would never have gone after either of them. I've never dated anyone purely for looks. I always thought we had something in common in another area. What is bad for me is, the dopamine release can cause me to overlook or not properly consider compatibility in other areas. If it's not that good, then it takes much more of those other qualities to keep me interested. Balance seems the key and starts with an attraction which I cannot explain because I don't understand why I am attracted to certain women who are not on the ten list. Truly, I don't have the experience of being attracted to a "ten". I just don't know any personally and have never talked to any. So, I've never been close enough to feel the unexplained attraction.

Edit: In my mind, a physical "ten" would be perfect for me in looks and all physical qualities. That's literally impossible and when the moniker is used, is based solely upon the subjective and limited visual experience. Most of them aren't looked at in their worst condition. For example, just awakened from a difficult night of little sleep while suffering from the flu and without their hair, makeup, and most attractive outerwear. No one is actually a "ten". We just like to label when we have to compare. It's obvious we all compare.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Was this truly a one off or do you have self esteem issues?


That was a one-off. A couple of experiences/relationships came close, but not quite.



> lost a lot of weight and suddenly had some gorgeous women expressing interest in me the


Kudos. I've had to lose weight following weight gain after breaking a leg. Relatively easy when you're young, gets tougher quickly with age.



> Answering that question will help you answer the part of your OP where you wonder if you can permanently raise the bar. How attractive are you?


Attractive enough to be able to talk to anyone. I don't mean necessarily to strike up sexual interest, but small talk in lines/parties/bars, or to find information or advice, etc. I work with multiple people going from project to project, and consistently find myself on female clients' good side (although all clients generally like the work). Is this the level of description you were looking for?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

moco82 said:


> Attractive enough to be able to talk to anyone. I don't mean necessarily to strike up sexual interest, but small talk in lines/parties/bars, or to find information or advice, etc. I work with multiple people going from project to project, and consistently find myself on female clients' good side (although all clients generally like the work). Is this the level of description you were looking for?


I meant, discounting for a moment status and other attractive attributes, how close to a "10" are you in relation to the women you're most attracted to?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> And don't forget that women have to have an emotional connection before they can even think about having sex with a man...


Haven't you heard of one night stands, short flings and friends with benefits??

It is not true that all women, or even most, have to have an emotional connection before they can even think about having sex with a man...


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Haven't you heard of one night stands, short flings and friends with benefits??
> 
> It is not true that all women, or even most, have to have an emotional connection before they can even think about having sex with a man...


Slow down a bit here Ele...notice that FW liked my post, and didn't argue with it? She saw my tongue buried firmly in my cheek...which I suppose it's now sticking out at you


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Haven't you heard of one night stands, short flings and friends with benefits??
> 
> It is not true that all women, or even most, have to have an emotional connection before they can even think about having sex with a man...


He was being sarcastic Ele...he had quoted a little sarcastic snip by me about how women aren't visual.

ETA: Oops....sam beat me to it.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I meant, discounting for a moment status and other attractive attributes, how close to a "10" are you in relation to the women you're most attracted to?


So stripped down naked in a random line-up of dudes in their mid-30s? 6 or 7, I suppose.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for getting this back on track Shoto.


Shoto1984 said:


> Did hooking up with someone you thought was unattainable change the way you viewed yourself and thus similar events followed in your life or did you change (attitude, accomplishment, confidence) and then you found yourself encountering these opportunities?


The incident I mentioned changed the way I thought I was perceived by women I previously thought were unattainable. I remember on the morning after thinking to myself "Now WTF happened here?". It was not only an outlier up to that point of how hot she was, but also an outlier, even today, of how little effort I had put in to get her home. I hadn't said a word to her beyond the initial hello. All she'd done was watch me interacting with my mates. I did nothing special. 

The conclusion I came to was: I literally don't have to do anything but be myself to be attractive. Being comfortable yourself is, I know now, a sign of having high self-esteem and that can be spotted from across a crowded room. It's part of why I'm disdainful of all the Pick-Up-Artist stuff - the affectation, routines, etc. My life experience taught me that if you have anything about you at all, women will chat you up. Not the other way around.

Now, this may not sound like the world's most successful dating strategy, but the last hot woman I was open to chatting me up, I eventually married.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I think initially, in theory (and in practice - initially), the 9 or 10 would be better and more appealing, and there's definitely the psychology of "I'm poking a 10!" that has a huge impact...but after a while, if the connection isn't there, that novelty wears off.

I've had some bad sex with women with amazing bodies, and superb sex with average looking women.

That being said, the lust of a 9 or 10 NEVER EVER GOES AWAY. I will always chase after, covet and lust after beautiful women. 

On that topic, I matched with a 9 or 10 on Tinder today - 26 years old (I'm 39). Completely unrealistic match - but like the idiot man I am, I'm going to pursue that. Because, well, she's a 9 and she's 26. SMH.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

moco82 said:


> Has anyone else, *due to shyness at a younger age, historically find himself calculating which women he could realistically be with, all things considered, as a weighted average (pun intended)?* Cutting out the bottom quartile (you have to get it up) and the top quartile (to be realistic), *and target girls who would appreciate the attention? *
> 
> And then after X years you get an opportunity to sleep with a truly attractive woman, and you realize the experience is much different due not just to the touch, or to the better shapes to hold on to (truly better, not simply bigger), but because your brain is overflowing with hormones from realizing you got the top reward billions of years of evolution have taught the male brain. Suddenly the bar is higher, but it seems unrealistic to proceed to hold it that high...


I find this post rather sad  Oh it's honest.... I think it's pretty common really... No doubt...I bet 90% of men here can relate to it... 

Speaking as a woman....it would hurt me a great deal to know a guy just felt I was mediocre so "Let's try her tonight!...I'll get some experience out of it anyway!"....racking up the notches on his belt.. just cause he thought he *couldn't* get ANY BETTER...hoping, fantasizing for the HOT Bo Dereck someday...







.. once he came out of his shell / lost a few lbs.. whatever it may be....

*We're all special.. and unique*... I'm one who *needs* the emotional connection to be with a man... Myself & H may not be sex ranked "8 to 10" material by others.... but does it really matter... shouldn't it come down to what we share... how we make each other FEEL... 

To me... there is none more worthy, he would have never felt *LIKE THAT* towards me....and how he expresses himself in the sexual...that's what it's about for me..... he's always made me feel like I was his .... 

Yeah.. I think this is what we all seek. Would any of us want to feel like we're just "*average*" to this person on top of us..or below, or sideways or getting "the dog"...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

See, that reads like madonna ***** complex to me SA. Putting anyone up on a pedestal no one can match is not healthy for either. She may be the best for me within my limited ability, but she is not perfect, no matter who she is. And Bo Derek was never ever a so-called "ten" in my mind, even when that movie first came out. She doesn't have the body I think is ideal, and when she opened her mouth, her number went down. She is beautiful. Don't get me wrong. What is a "ten" is so subjective, in my opinion, it's literally impossible to define it the same for every man. 

It seems like that's the other side of the coin. Women want to be a "ten". They just don't like being compared to anyone else. Can't have a number system without comparison, so it's all quite unrealistic, in my opinion.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

2ntnuf said:


> See, that reads like madonna ***** complex to me SA. Putting anyone up on a pedestal no one can match is not healthy for either. .


 Whatever you say 2ntnuf.. I don't think we have an unhealthy view ...

I really don't understand the Madonna /"" thing so I can't comment on it.. I know he sure liked to get it on when I was pregnant -till I popped.. so I don't think it applies here...

If others don't have a problem with this sort of thing... that's good.....and It's important for some of us to feel very special to whom we are with...

I understand men have different ideas on beauty...of course they do... women do too on a man's attractiveness... thank goodness!! 
I never seen what anyone seen in George Clooney







or even Brad Pitt to be honest..I could list a slew of hunks that didn't do a thing for me.. but that's good.. because according to popular opinion.. they'd be miles out of most of our leagues anyway.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I find this post rather sad  Oh it's honest.... I think it's pretty common really... No doubt...I bet 90% of men here can relate to it...
> 
> *Apparently not as many of the men claim to have no idea what we're talking about lol It is rather sad but very human it seems. That said, I do think that for most its something you get beyond at some point in your life experience.*
> 
> ...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Whatever you say 2ntnuf.. I don't think we have an unhealthy view ...
> 
> I really don't understand the Madonna /"" thing so I can't comment on it.. I know he sure liked to get it on when I was pregnant -till I popped.. so I don't think it applies here...
> 
> ...


I may have misunderstood your post. I read it like I read many posts here. A wife wants to be the very best top of the line most important most sexually satisfying most everything to her husband. I think that's unrealistic, just in that she may be that, but within his and her limited abilities to find others to compare. 

I suppose we have come full circle and basically we cannot compare or we start down that hole again with dissatisfaction and so forth. Why do men compare me and find me less than a ten. Women compare too, and on and on. Actually, more folks here are dissatisfied than the alternative, or they would not be here. Something always needs improved.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think I know what you're talking about OP.

My bother grew up as a total dork, complete nerd. Couldn't get a date if his life depended on it. His senior prom came, he must have gone through about a dozen girls who all said no. I remember thinking he was nuts asking them because they were out of his league. He ended up taking a very plain sort of homely girl with the personality of a cardboard box.

Through college, he never dated. After college he didn't date. Then about 25 he finally filled out and grew into his face. The women were falling all over him. Women I hardly knew were my new best friends to get to my brother. And then I finally saw it. I finally saw my brother as the man and not the dork I went to high school with.

I was PISSED! I was supposed to be the beautiful one!!!  My dorky brother turned into drop dead gorgeous! 

He was shocked when a beautiful woman asked him out. He fell in love immediately, couldn't believe his good fortune!

And he shouldn't have because she was a complete psycho! We all saw it, my father attempted to bribe him with a new car not to marry her. But he did.

And spent the next 20 years miserable! I could write pages and pages about that fvcking psycho ***** but I won't.

My point is, I see what you're trying to say.

You grow up thinking you're not so hot, then a beautiful woman pays attention to you and you think maybe you've underestimated yourself?

But the rest of the story is that beauty alone doesn't bring you near what you think it does.

The most beautiful woman I ever knew, not my psycho B!tch ex SIL, was an absolute MESS! She was stunning! She was also selfish, shallow and deceitful. 

And as a 52 year old woman who has always known never to fall for a guy who falls for you because you're beautiful...beauty fade. Everyone ages. What you have left is the essential person and if you're not in love with the essential person your life will be shallow and probably miserable.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks, Anon, but that is all common wisdom. The reason I posted in this section and not in "Sex in Marriage" was because the question is not "What's that mantra again?", but "How did you practically go through life after the experience, and reconcile reality with mantras".

So could you elaborate on your brother's experience after divorce? Assuming they're divorced. Was his marriage like an immunization against hot women? Did he stay focused on this range? What were the failures and successes in his dating life since?


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening SimplyAmorous
If he makes you fell like a 10, you very likely are to him. Whether or not she is a 10 to someone else simply doesn't matter to me.

I am attracted to my wife more than to anyone else. She isn't the "best I could get" she is what I wanted. If I'd wanted someone else I'm sure no one could resist my dashing good looks, razor sharp wit, and all around awesomeness. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> snip
> 
> To me... there is none more worthy, he would have never felt *LIKE THAT* towards me....and how he expresses himself in the sexual...that's what it's about for me..... he's always made me feel like I was his ....


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

moco82 said:


> Thanks, Anon, but that is all common wisdom. The reason I posted in this section and not in "Sex in Marriage" was because the question is not "What's that mantra again?", but "How did you practically go through life after the experience, and reconcile reality with mantras".
> 
> So could you elaborate on your brother's experience after divorce? Assuming they're divorced. Was his marriage like an immunization against hot women? Did he stay focused on this range? What were the failures and successes in his dating life since?


Ha! It's actually not that common wisdom when it is commonly ignored.

After his wife left him for another man, who then dumped her crazy ass, my brother met another beautiful woman. I would say his ex wife might be considered hotter by some. His ex wife was cold and aloof while his GF was warm and loving and very affectionate. His ex wife was skinny with long dark hair, sparkling blue eyes and on the skinny/bony side and couldn't boil eggs. His GF had fantastic hair, was petite and curvy with big Italian boobs and fabulous legs and a great cook. His ex smiled politely while his GF belly laughed. His EX wore designer stuff and so did his GF. I would say they both were in the same level of attractiveness, just different.

His GF never left his side when he was diagnosed with ALS and slowly became locked in. Meanwhile his ex wife alienated his kids from him, threatened to sue us because she wanted more money (while he was living in disability and using his share of the retirement funds to pay for his medical needs) and sent daily nasty emails complaining about how the house needed repairs. She even tried to scam a couple of thousand from him about black mold in the master bath!! My brother was unable to move his limbs when she did that! 

I will tell you this. When he first started dating his GF, he said to me: "it is so great being with someone who likes me!" I will never forget that.

My brother died a few years ago with his GF by his side, while his ex was still trying to find someone to take her case to sue him for more of his retirement since he could no longer pay spousal support.

So, I guess he kind of did stay focused on his range but this time he was looking for more than beauty and he sure as hell found it!


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

It's Friday afternoon. No one does actual work or stays in the scope of the thread. It's OK, I can almost smell the coals and taste that first beer. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Note: This was write before #120 was posted.


----------



## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> His ex wife was skinny with long dark hair, sparkling blue eyes and on the skinny/bony side and couldn't boil eggs. His GF had fantastic hair, was petite and curvy with big Italian boobs and fabulous legs and a great cook. His ex smiled politely while his GF belly laughed... So, I guess he kind of did stay focused on his range but this time


Spot on, thanks. And sorry that your family had to go through both of those horrors.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> with big Italian boobs


 What are those? Are they shaped like sausages or what the...:rofl:


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening SimplyAmorous
> If he makes you fell like a 10, you very likely are to him. * Whether or not she is a 10 to someone else simply doesn't matter to me.
> 
> I am attracted to my wife more than to anyone else. She isn't the "best I could get" she is what I wanted. * If I'd wanted someone else I'm sure no one could resist my dashing good looks, razor sharp wit, and all around awesomeness.


Yeah this is pretty much what I meant  ....it doesn't matter how anyone else evaluates us..it's so much more than just Looks also... it's the whole package...

I think we are ALL special in our own way...and bring wonderful things to someone who cares to be with us...hopefully that whomever makes us FEEL that way ..and feels that way AT THE TIME.. 

It's probably NOT realistic I suppose.. just what I was thinking reading it .. and rambled out.


----------



## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

Personal said:


> I think a lot of men probably tell themselves that lower seeded women as you describe them do more and offer more etc versus hotter women.
> 
> Yet it isn't really true, lots of hot/pretty women are terrific sexual and relationship partners, just like lots of not hot/pretty women make poor sexual and relationship partners as well.
> 
> ...


So I'm assuming you had some experience with night crawlers? I don't necessarily disagree with your overall take. But there's not a doubt lower seeded women are better performers.

This very topic about ugly women vs hot women in bed is a frequent topic among Men. You see a girl, and she might not be a looker but a few you might think that her oral skills are exceptional, or she's a beast in the sack.

It perplexes me how you say it isn't true. In my experience and many others that I talked to, these women rival porn stars. They put out more. They take on select tasks with a vengeance. They're not germophobes. They put on epic performances. Hot chicks are just ok. I'm not saying pretty women are bad, it's just that usually the strong jaw champ was not particularly a looker.

Porn Stars= Average looking women with exceptional bedroom skills, that could never cut it as a fashion model.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm shaking my head in disagreement to the entire thrust of your post, Tubb.


Tubbalard said:


> Hot chicks are just ok. I'm not saying pretty women are bad, it's just that usually the strong jaw champ was not particularly a looker.


Not all beautiful women are as hung up about their looks as you are.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Tubbalard said:


> So I'm assuming you had some experience with night crawlers?


Then you are assuming wrong. I've had no such experience, in my experience I was regularly courted and offered sex by a number of women. Many of them took me out to lunch or dinner while some even took me on trips away. 

Women buying me drinks, offering sex and or asking me out occurred so frequently I stopped bothering going after any. So I could pick and choose! I became the guy who turned down or accepted interest and ended my relationships and turned down a few marriage proposals.

I've had tremendous sex with beautiful people and average ones alike from a variety of nations and or ethnicity.



Tubbalard said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with your overall take. But there's not a doubt lower seeded women are better performers.


That has not been my experience.



Tubbalard said:


> This very topic about ugly women vs hot women in bed is a frequent topic among Men. You see a girl, and she might not be a looker but a few you might think that her oral skills are exceptional, or she's a beast in the sack.


I've never discussed this topic with any men I know or have known and have likewise found this not be the case in my own experience.



Tubbalard said:


> It perplexes me how you say it isn't true. In my experience and many others that I talked to, these women rival porn stars. They put out more. They take on select tasks with a vengeance. They're not germophobes. They put on epic performances. Hot chicks are just ok. I'm not saying pretty women are bad, it's just that usually the strong jaw champ was not particularly a looker.


I haven't encountered any germaphobes amongst the beautiful people I've known.



Tubbalard said:


> Porn Stars= Average looking women with exceptional bedroom skills, that could never cut it as a fashion model.


:rofl: Then you haven't shared sex with the right fashion models.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

The whole angle here has taken more than a bit of a disrespectful turn, and the fundamental question just seems, off ...


----------

