# Test



## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

I have an open topic in the ladies lounge about my wife needing a drink before it leads to sex but I want to seek help on the whole affection side also.

In a monthly period my wife and I could go 1-2 weeks without a kiss, hug or any other kind of affection. We basically only have sex after we’ve had a date night or a few drinks together. 

Here’s how it plays out. On a normal day when it comes to bed time we get in bed and go to sleep. There’s no kiss or hug, spoon etc unless I initiate it. And even then I have to say give us a kiss because she’s facing the other way or her head is buried inside her pillow. And then it’s only a quick peck on the lips.

This happens every day unless we’ve had a drink. On these days she gets in bed and lies like a dead body on her back. She then waits for me to lean over and start kissing her which she then responds and we end up having sex.

Sometimes throughout the month I’ll give her a hug or a kiss etc but its only brief before she pulls away. 

I know I’ve got other things to work on to make her secure in the marriage but having read No more Mr Nice Guy and Married mans sex primer im still struggling a little to work out how to improve things.

If I’m going to take responsibility to initiate affection and sex do I start flirting a bit more during texts maybe of a day? Start being more affectionate even though she’s told me she’s not a lovey dovey kind of person? Then at bed time if she’s in a defensive position do I keep asking for a kiss every night? 

In the books it says take control and be an alpha male rather than beta all the time which I get and I’m doing in other parts of the marriage now but not sure how to fix this side.

If I get in bed every night and leave her alone I know nothing is probably going to change but I’ve read also that continually asking for sex (not that I do) or trying most nights is a no go for improving things. 

We’ve talked about this and she got all angry and defensive saying it’s always about me but the truth is I want her to be happy also so although yes I do want affection and sex for myself (what man doesn’t) I also want a heathly marriage and my wife to be happy. 

I can’t change how she feels I can only change how I am and then see if things improve so I’m asking for help on what steps you think I should take in this situation.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*What are your ages, @BIL310 ? How long have you been together as well as married? Any kids?*


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> *What are your ages, @BIL310 ? How long have you been together as well as married? Any kids?*


35-37 and we have two children 7-9.
We have been together since 1998.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Alcohol lowers one's inhibitions.
This is no secret, is common knowledge.

Letting go, letting ones hair down can be hard for some.

Some inhibitions are strong, most are emotional barriers. For good reason.

Think of steam...

When contained, it is harmless, once allowed to escape, it burns all it touches.

Her personality seethes below the surface, waiting to be released.

Alcohol dissolves boundaries, makes sober minded people lusty and passionate.

People of Saturn are this way. They are restrained. For good reason.

The lust is always present, it is coated over with a hard shell of propriety.

Propriety is constructed from fear, from fear of shame, from fear of being exposed. Fear of losing control.
Life has taught them what happens when this side comes out.

Some of the most restrained and calm people remain so until alcohol dissolves their restraint.

They become the person behind the mask.

Your wife is a lusty women masquerading as one who is prim and proper.

The tiger within her is released when sweet wine removes the mask, frees the lusty scent of musk.

Never let her drink out of your sight.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I may have exaggerated somewhat in my last post.

She is focused and she likely, seriously approaches life.

Alcohol loosens the knots. Her not becomes yes.


She needs to loosen up. Alcohol and foreplay are needed to get her in the mood.
She [both of you] have young children, with many responsibilities.

She cannot shift gears from wife, from mother, from homemaker, to lover, easily.

Once the children fly out of the nest, she may get better. 
May not...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

When God gave women the furry gate, he did it to drive men insane.

Look at the world.

Am I wrong? :grin2:


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

BIL310 said:


> 35-37 and we have two children 7-9.
> We have been together since 1998.


*And I take it that you two have not sought out any kind of marriage, pastoral, or sexual counseling?*


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> BIL310 said:
> 
> 
> > 35-37 and we have two children 7-9.
> ...


No. My wife doesn’t see it as a problem. As soon as you bring sex up she tenses up and goes on the defensive.

I’m actively working on improvement other things she told me she was unhappy about, me always wanting more (like bigger houses, live abroad etc) and not doing enough around the house. And I will continue to do that because I have been wrong when it comes to that.

I’m not though expecting that to automatically improve the affection between us so I need to step up my game for the sake of our marriage.

It’s just difficult to know where to start. The only time she does loosen up even conversation wise is after a couple of drinks. I think the next time we’ve had a couple of drinks on our own I’m going to try approach the subject of how she’s feeling about the affection side of our marriage and how she thinks we can improve things. I’ll listen first before I say anything and I’m not going to point any blame.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I recommend you read two books, in this order: _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. Do the work they recommend. Eventually, you may be able to get your wife interested in reading them and doing the work as well. 

Provided your wife doesn't have a sexual aversion - to you, or to sex in general due to some past trauma - she likely still needs to have a close emotional connection with you in order to be interested in sex with you. If you've not been pulling your weight in the relationship, not meeting her emotional needs, then she may not have that emotional connection. And, while doing your part at home will demonstrate that you love and respect her as a partner, doing the dishes is unlikely to directly translate into her wanting to have sex. You need to figure out what her emotional needs are and how to meet them. In turn, figure out what your most important emotional needs are and if she's meeting them. If not, then you both have a bit of work to do. But since you're the one who's here getting advice, that work may have to start with you.


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## Annabegins (Aug 10, 2018)

Rowan said:


> I recommend you read two books, in this order: _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. Do the work they recommend. Eventually, you may be able to get your wife interested in reading them and doing the work as well.
> 
> Provided your wife doesn't have a sexual aversion - to you, or to sex in general due to some past trauma - she likely still needs to have a close emotional connection with you in order to be interested in sex with you. If you've not been pulling your weight in the relationship, not meeting her emotional needs, then she may not have that emotional connection. And, while doing your part at home will demonstrate that you love and respect her as a partner, doing the dishes is unlikely to directly translate into her wanting to have sex. You need to figure out what her emotional needs are and how to meet them. In turn, figure out what your most important emotional needs are and if she's meeting them. If not, then you both have a bit of work to do. But since you're the one who's here getting advice, that work may have to start with you.


This is great advice. You were both very young when you got together, I’m wondering if sex has always been something that she has had difficulty with? I’m sorry if I missed the answer to this in your other thread, but what was your sex life like early in your marriage? How was the affection? Was this a gradual change on her part or has she always been uncomfortable with affection? Sometimes the way a man approaches affection and intimacy and the way it is received are completely different.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Annabegins said:


> Rowan said:
> 
> 
> > I recommend you read two books, in this order: _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. Do the work they recommend. Eventually, you may be able to get your wife interested in reading them and doing the work as well.
> ...


It’s been a gradual change over the years. At first it was fine but as you said we were very young then. Couldn’t keep our hands off each other.

Sex was fine, sober or with alcohol it wasn’t a problem.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I didn't read your other thread, so there could be a lot of backstory I am missing out on. But, your wife sounds like me. 

I'm not a very affectionate person. I actually don't like to be touched, really. I have always been this way AND I grew up in a family that was not touchy-feely at all so it wasn't even something I necessarily expected for a relationship. I realize now that I am older that sounds really odd, but it is what I was used to. 

I almost never have the innate desire to hug or kiss my husband. I love him more than anything, I just don't express love physically very well and it doesn't come to me naturally. I often feel claustrophobic if I am too close to people or if there is too much touching. I like my space. It has (almost - see below) nothing to do with him. I hate being touched when I am trying to sleep, and he always wants to cuddle to sleep. I try to meet his needs for affection but I fail a lot. I have to consciously remind myself to touch him and he takes that personally. It's a lose-lose situation, a total mismatch for us. I often feel like a failure and that I don't deserve marriage because of this.

Sex and affection are distinctly different in my head. Sex is what you do when aroused, and if aroused touching and sex are ok and good with me. Affection doesn't really do anything for me sexually and I have to force myself to get over the hump of I-am-so-uncomfortable-with-this if there's too much touching involved before I am aroused. Normal people might make out or something before sex, or affection might naturally lead there. With me I have to force my brain to stop flipping out at my discomfort before I can get into it and try to get aroused. I realize this is not normal. 

You know what helps? A drink or three. It lowers my natural instinct to be "uncomfortable" and allows me to be at ease, to accept affection more easily. We don't make a habit of drinking and have sex sober more often than not, but it definitely makes a huge difference for ME and my ability to get in the zone, so to speak. That has nothing to do with him... it's all me and my wacky brain. I do realize that I could easily become addicted to drinking because it makes me feel temporarily better than I usually do, so I am conscious to limit it. 

Two things compounded my problem, one of which I told my husband and he is much better about it, and the other... well, I am at a loss. 

First, the way he touched me was turning me off from affection. Men seem to be naturally rougher and stronger than women, and he would often touch me in a way that felt like groping. Too much pressure, too forceful feeling. I explained to him that I need light touches, like feather light, something that is pleasant and mild. Even then it takes me a few seconds to rewire my response from I-must-shut-this-down to ok this is good. I also respond better to certain types of touch. If I have my back to him in bed, a light touch on my shoulder or back is nice and I'll often respond to that. I don't like him wrapping his whole arm around me, it feels suffocating. Things like that. However - it took us many years for me to explain this to him. Mostly because I knew it had a high potential to hurt his feelings (what he heard is "you aren't worthy of my affection and I don't love you" instead of "here are some things I'd like to try to fix this together"). So if you want her to talk to you, make sure you are safe to talk to. My H still has a tendency to shut down and hear criticism where it is not intended. I am trying to work on my own discomfort of causing him pain by telling him things he may not want to hear and I need him to work on being receptive to my feedback. 

Second, since having my kids (who are similar ages to yours) my body has never been the same. I suffer from constant pain and have been in and out of so many doctors offices I've lost count at this point to try to figure out what is wrong with me. My pain is in my joints, muscles and even my skin hurts. I get migraines constantly. It flares to either being so bad I need to stay in bed to just a low level constant background noise pain. It's always there. So when being affectionate, sometimes it actually hurts sometimes to be touched and it makes me recoil. It is a knee jerk reaction like if I were to prick your finger with a needle, you would jerk your hand away. I have to force myself to NOT react. I think if I can train my brain to react differently then I can perhaps get rid of the impulse to retreat when touched. I'm working on it. Again though, this has nothing to do with him and I'm at a loss after constantly going to the doctor and getting brushed off and having all tests come back normal. 

Maybe there is more going on with her than you realize. I try very hard to meet this need of my husbands but I know that even trying, I am failing, and I pretty much resigned myself to thinking that one day he will probably leave me over it. I do my best and that's all I can do. Do you think your wife is making an effort? 



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

I think I get what you are wanting.

You are wanting spontaneous sex, that is not connected to a date night or alcohol, am I right?

Do you think that your wife thinks of sex as a stand alone thing? Since she is not affectionate by nature (lovey dovey as you called it) does she need a different way to work up to it, like a date and alcohol?

Whenever you hug her in bed, are you hoping for sex?

How would you feel about being affectionate throughout the day, and making it a habit to kiss goodnight and hug every night, whether or not you have sex?

How would she feel about that?

Do you think that she might desire sex with you if she had more non sexual contact with you, or that it wouldn't matter?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I do my best and that's all I can do.


That's all that can be asked of anyone.

Do your best.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rowan said:


> I recommend you read two books, in this order: _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. Do the work they recommend. Eventually, you may be able to get your wife interested in reading them and doing the work as well.
> 
> Provided your wife doesn't have a sexual aversion - to you, or to sex in general due to some past trauma - she likely still needs to have a close emotional connection with you in order to be interested in sex with you. If you've not been pulling your weight in the relationship, not meeting her emotional needs, then she may not have that emotional connection. And, while doing your part at home will demonstrate that you love and respect her as a partner, doing the dishes is unlikely to directly translate into her wanting to have sex. You need to figure out what her emotional needs are and how to meet them. In turn, figure out what your most important emotional needs are and if she's meeting them. If not, then you both have a bit of work to do. But since you're the one who's here getting advice, that work may have to start with you.


I agree with this, you're focused on the end result, you should be focused on everything else to make her feel more affectionate towards you. Don't expect her to just say ok he wants me to be more affectionate so I will do that. Her efforts will seem fake and you will not be satisfied. 

First try doing a few things, start by not bringing up the lack of affection at all. Second, Initiate sex but do not act upset or disappointed if she's not in the mood, just accept it and give her a loving peck or something, she will appreciate this. Third, do the little things, ask her about her day, show her affection without out the expectation of reciprocation, little pecks on the cheek, quick hugs, pats on the but, shoulder rubs when she seems stressed, All stuff so she feels loved and appreciated. Fourth, Make her fell sexy, compliment her regularly, write her a short love not telling her how beautiful and sexy she is. Last, do some extra stuff to make her appreciate you, surprise her with a spa day, surprise her by doing the laundry one day when you know she is planning on doing it, whatever she'll be appreciative of. 

When there is tension and negativity surrounding sex and affection she is going to respond negatively. So be positive, don't nag and complain focus making yourself as attractive and needed as possible. Being attractive is all about looks, it's also actions and attitude focus on all of it. 

Try this for a couple of months not just a few days and throw your hands up in frustration. You guys are in a funk it takes time and effort to get out of it. After it's been a few months and things are improving surprise her with a fun weekend getaway and see how the progress shows. If you get a positive reaction

Nagging and complaining about lack of sex almost always has the opposite of the desired outcome, less sex. 

If you do all this and she is still cold, you have a problem.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

kag123 said:


> I didn't read your other thread, so there could be a lot of backstory I am missing out on. But, your wife sounds like me.
> 
> I'm not a very affectionate person. I actually don't like to be touched, really. I have always been this way AND I grew up in a family that was not touchy-feely at all so it wasn't even something I necessarily expected for a relationship. I realize now that I am older that sounds really odd, but it is what I was used to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to share this. I don’t personally think she’s making an effort but then again it may be something I’m missing. 

I’ve learned more about women in the last 5-6 days than I have in 20 years being with one!


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Rowan said:
> 
> 
> > I recommend you read two books, in this order: _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. Do the work they recommend. Eventually, you may be able to get your wife interested in reading them and doing the work as well.
> ...


Yes I now understand this. Today I’ve text her asking how her day has gone and also had a general phone conversation whilst she was stuck in traffic on way home from work.

Incidentally she said that she forgot to ask me to do some laundry and I told her I’d already done it (which I had) and she was like oh that’s good. 

Yes I’m prepared for the long haul with this and not expecting instant results.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Araucaria said:


> I think I get what you are wanting.
> 
> You are wanting spontaneous sex, that is not connected to a date night or alcohol, am I right?
> 
> ...


Yes I would like spontaneous sex without a date night or alcohol. Regardless of this I’d also like more affection between us that doesn’t have to lead to sex.

If I hug her in bed and I’m not expecting anything. Maybe a hug back but that’s about it.

I did used to make a habit of kissing her on way out to work or on her return and random hugs throughout the day but it was never reciprocated so i got fed up and over time it’s dwindled to nothing much. I don’t sex to stop feeling insecure or trying to second guess my wife’s feelings towards me, it’s the lack of affection and no sex combined that’s the problem.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BIL310 said:


> Yes I now understand that this. Today I’ve text her how her day has gone and also has a general phone conversation whilst she was stuck in traffic on way home work.
> 
> Incidentally she said that she forgot to ask me to some laundry and I told her I’d already done it (which I had) and she was like oh that’s good.
> 
> Yes I’m prepared for the long haul with this and not expecting instant results.


Good stuff, keep going, keep reminding yourself there were lots of happy times. You're in a rut now but if you stick to it be the best man and husband you can be she'll hopefully come around. As you start to see positive results it will get easier and easier.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

To OP,
I skimmed the thread but I'm gonna go back for tips.
My wife is the same way. She insists on alcohol for sex. For a while I pushed this but I came to realize she's just too uptight, thinking too much, too self-conscious, or just too "in the head" to let go and enjoy herself. Somehow a little alcohol allows her to let go and be the sexual being she wants to be, but won't let herself be that person when she's sober. Maybe it's a social stigma, I don't know.

It's more confusing when I look back and I don't recall her having this much of a problem when we were younger, but we also drank a lot more back then. We were always drinking a beer casually. The last few years we stopped drinking casually and often to work on losing weight so now it's an occasion which mean sex is an occasion.

I had my brief moment of self victimization thinking "she has to be drunk to F me" and internalized that as me being unattractive to her, but I got over that. So I've come to terms with it. *I've let it go and accepted that that's just the way she is.*

The challenge is that it's also an obstacle. She doesn't want to drink unless she doesn't have to get up the next morning, especially a problem as parents of a seven year old. It would help if I could give her a glass of wine, but then I get greedy and want to get her a little drunk because when she's drunk, she's a hell of a lot of fun.

It's also confusing because the rare times we do get babysitting, we'll go out an drink on a date night. I think that drinking and a date night is romantic so I'm thinking it'll be great to end it with sex. But then she acts blindsided by my expectation because to her date nights and sex aren't at all related and it that upsets me for days.

I'm personally making changes in the way I am with her and trying to change up the routine that makes her unapproachable. The way it is now, she acts blindsided by any invitation or advancement to have sex. We did get into a couple of small fights about that back.

I don't mean to complain myself. I'm just dealing with a similar challenge. I'm absolutely OK with the drink. When I give her a drink, she knows what I want and she is receptive and looking forward to it, sometimes enthusiastically. She's a lot of fun and seems to have a crazy good time. But she won't drink frequently because of getting up early. It's frustrating. If we could just fool around for 30 minutes every few days, I'd probably not give a crap, but now I have to open a bottle of wine, spend an hour or two drinking and talking until she's feeling good, then sex for the next 30-45 minutes. It's a big several hour long process.

I have multiple strategies I'm trying to execute right now that might open the door back up to non-drunk more casual play. Also maybe smaller drink more often and a little play. It's not about getting off. I just enjoy being with her, making her feel good, and feeling like she's into me. I'm going back to some things that worked in the past. I may even once again attempt to talk to her about this (how to improve the intimacy of our relationship,) but she's a terrible communicator and those positive constructively approached discussions don't always go as constructively as I hope.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

JamesTKirk said:


> To OP,
> I skimmed the thread but I'm gonna go back for tips.
> My wife is the same way. She insists on alcohol for sex. For a while I pushed this but I came to realize she's just too uptight, thinking too much, too self-conscious, or just too "in the head" to let go and enjoy herself. Somehow a little alcohol allows her to let go and be the sexual being she wants to be, but won't let herself be that person when she's sober. Maybe it's a social stigma, I don't know.
> 
> ...


Yes I can fully relate to everything you are saying. When my wife has a few drinks I feel like I can say what I want without fear of reprisal. She opens up and is certainly more fun and outgoing.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

BIL310 said:


> Yes I would like spontaneous sex without a date night or alcohol. Regardless of this I’d also like more affection between us that doesn’t have to lead to sex.
> 
> If I hug her in bed and I’m not expecting anything. Maybe a hug back but that’s about it.
> 
> I did used to make a habit of kissing her on way out to work or on her return and random hugs throughout the day but it was never reciprocated so i got fed up and over time it’s dwindled to nothing much. I don’t sex to stop feeling insecure or trying to second guess my wife’s feelings towards me, it’s the lack of affection and no sex combined that’s the problem.


You have told her everything you have written on this thread, I assume, and she won't change.

Personally, by all you have said, I don't think that you are causing resentment, or making her feel like she is only good for sex. You hug and kiss her with no expectations of sex. She should feel cherished.

Perhaps having a date and drink before sex is just a habit for her?

Definitely talk some more about how you feel. Maybe you need to suggest that the next time the two of you go out on a date, that neither of you drinks alcohol, and then expect to have sex and see what happens?


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

BIL310 said:


> I have an open topic in the ladies lounge about my wife needing a drink before it leads to sex but I want to seek help on the whole affection side also.
> 
> In a monthly period my wife and I could go 1-2 weeks without a kiss, hug or any other kind of affection. We basically only have sex after we’ve had a date night or a few drinks together.
> 
> ...


First of all, I'm very sorry you're dealing with these issues. This is just my take, and best guess, based on what you've said, and being a woman, etc.

Men usually don't recognize something is direly wrong in the marriage until the sex suffers. Sex is what usually makes men feel loved.

Most Women need to feel loved in order to have sex.

Most women feel love through true connection, consideration, cherishing, and validation. The sex after dates? My guess is that's because of the time spent together that she feels closer to you, and therefore more willing to have sex. The sex only after a drink? My guess is after a drink she's more able to not think about all the stuff that keeps her from feeling connected, considered, or validated in your marriage, and thereby more willing to have sex. The laying there like a dead body until you make a move? My guess is she's like most women and want to feel desired by you, and like she's the sexiest thing on the planet to you.

So my best guess is that she's not getting some core emotional needs met in one or more of those areas.

To each their own on the alpha male stuff, and my opinion is in no way meant to down another's choices in handling these situations if that's what works for them. But I feel the Alpha Male stuff is a temporary quick fix that aimed more at eliciting a fearful response in the woman, in which she'll be in shock at the change in her man, and "chase" him in fear of losing him. However, after things settle, that lack of her emotional needs being met start the cycle all over again. All that to say, I believe Alpha Male approaches seem to detract from truly fixing issues, or focusing on growing the emotional maturity, empathy, and compassion necessary to take care of his spouses emotional needs.

My suggestion is to sit down with her and listen to her. TRULY LISTEN. And validate all she says. That is, in my opinion, the LEAST Beta thing a man could do. It takes a real man to be able to listen to his woman and take care of her emotionally (because it's damn hard for most men to develop the sexiest of all muscles, the emotional muscle, in order to do so).

If she has a hard time opening up to you, or is shut down, things are likely further down the bad path, and she won't open up unless you prove you're emotionally safe to her (meaning no anger, arguments, etc).

The one place I feel being "Alpha" might help is in the bedroom. Based on the limited information I have, she does seem to like to be "chased" (aka, desired). The issue for you is to wade through the complicated emotional minefield to determine when the right time is to implement it.

Anyway, that's my take. I hope the very best for you and your wife!


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Update: Last week I made a lot of effort to improve in areas I was told I was failing in as a husband. Valid points which I agreed with my wife on. 

I helped more around the house, showed more of an interest in her without expecting anything in return. 

I also took control of the issues with our children and let them know that whatever I say goes. There’ll be no more playing Mum and Dad off each other.

I regularly showed my wife affection in the form of hugs and kisses and towards the weekend I felt her becoming more responsive to them. On Thursday she came over to my side of the couch and leaned on me watching the Tv. 

We had a children’s sleep over on Saturday so it was a tiring night. Yesterday around early evening I had a couple of bottles of lager to relax after a busy week. My wife then said she was tired but was going to have a couple of drinks too. We don’t usually drink on a Sunday but anyway it was only a couple whilst kids were in bed early shattered from late night before.

As we got into bed (it was my understanding that she was still on her period) she said to me I’m not on (period) anymore anyway. So I said jokingly why what are you planning? She said I’d just thought I’d let know because you said (during our discussion early on in the week) that I never initiate and just lie there so I’m just letting you know. 

Needless to say we ended up having sex, which was the best it’s been for a while. Afterwards my wife lay her head on my chest. She’s not done this for a long time. She usually just stays on her side of the bed.


It’s still not sex whilst sober but it’s a big improvement inside a week. I’m just going to continue the way I’m going and hope things continue to improve.


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