# alcoholic???



## voivod

during our first session with our couples counselor, the issue of alcohol abuse came up. my wife described my alcohol use, and that i got a dui 10 years ago. counselor said "i could give you a test to determine whether or not you are an alcoholic, but it would cost several hundred dollars to determine what i already know. she said "chris, you are an alcoholic."

i accepted that, as i had already pledged my life toward total sobriety. lately, though, i've begun wondering.

i kinda breeak the rules when it comes to having alcohol around. i bought a six-pack or beer to keep around when my wife visits (we're separated) and we watch a sporting event. we do the bar food and beverages when we watch football. she enjoys that. plus, i bought a six-pack of "mike's hard lemonade" for her for new years eve. she didn't drink that night, but i wanted her to feel comfortable with it if she chose to.

bottom line is that i have had 4 beers and six "hard lemonades" sitting in my fridge forever. i feel no urge to "sneak" one. i swear i am starting to think i'm not an alcoholic. not that i want an excuse. but can you ever be "cured" of alcoholism? i don't ever think i'll have another drink. they're there if i want them. i think my wife would remove the alcohol from my fridge if she thought it was a threat. she is concerned for my health (previous stroke). can you be "cured?"


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## GAsoccerman

not sure if you can be cured, there are different variations of an alcoholic.

I love beer, it is part of my life. Some would say I am one, But I know I am not.

I can go out to dinner and have sweet tea instead of beer. 

Currently I am working the day tour at work, so at night I will have a beer maxing out at 4 beers, not every night, but some nights when I am in "the mood" otherwise it is water, milk or sweet tea.

Now in february I will switch to the over night tour until may 31st during that time period I will only have a beer on my weekends off, and that would be only 2 days a month, I work 10 on 4 off, but the first day is a transition day and always have a bad headache, so I don't drink, why make it worse? So the next night I will have a beer with some friends. Then no more becuase I have to transition back to the night schedule.

So my point being is that I can cut it off no problem, i don't "need it" nor do I need to get "drunk" I just like the taste.


I don't know you well enough to judge you, I know you are smart and have a firery personality.

But I also feel some people use Alcohol as an excuse to blame their spouse for their marriage failure. I had a co-worker whose wife did that to him. But then one day while arguing she called the cops and said, "my husband hit me!" she hung up the phone and he said, " I never hit you why would you do that?" the then proceeded to take a door and ram it into her head so it was nice and red for the cops. He said she is crazy, of course the cops removed him, but she got her divorce, their daughter, and half of his money and assets then got married to a new guy a week after the divorce was finalized. 

So that being said, I would go get the test and spend the money, it's only money and it will give you a feeling of where you stand.

I am sure you can find a cheaper test online.


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## Blanca

I've read a lot of your posts void, and to me it seems that you are not so much an alcoholic, but that you have an addictive personality. You mentioned that you quit like a million different things. but from my perspective, it seems you lack balance in your life b/c you get addicted to one thing and then the next. 

So just from my point of view, it seems to me you can quit alcohol, and that you are not an alcoholic per se, just someone who creates imbalances in life by becoming addicted to one thing after another. Its not the alcohol that you have to be 'cured' of, its the cycle of getting addicted to something else thereby creating another imbalance in your life.


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## Chris H.

Voivod,

It sounds to me like you're looking for a reason to drink again and headed straight for a relapse. You should call your sponsor (if you have one) and talk to him about these feelings you're having. If you don't have a sponsor, I suggest that you get one asap.

I've been sober for 9 years and going to AA the whole time. I've seen more alcoholics come and go and relapse in that time than I ever imagined. What you're saying is something I've heard quite a few times, right before that person relapsed and came back into the rooms later in more pain than they were in before.

I don't know much about you other than the fact that your (alcoholic-like) drinking was one of the main reasons your relationship with your wife crumbled. If you liked drinking so much before, why do you think anything would be different if you started up again?

The insanity of addiction is that we do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. It's a cunning and baffling disease in that it's the only one I know of that convinces us that we have NO disease.

One of my closest friends in the program emailed me this note one day, and I keep it in my wallet because it's such a powerful statement about alcoholism and what sobriety has done for me:



> I would rather go through life sober, believing I am an alcoholic, than go through life drunk, trying to convince myself that I am not.


If you were to compare my life with vs. without drugs and alcohol, you would undoubtedly say, "Chris, you should not be drinking and doing drugs - alcoholic or not."

So guess what? Even if I wasn't really an alcoholic, I'm glad I caught "alcoholism" because now I know how important it is for me to stay sober, work the AA program, and become a better person, husband, and father in the process.

As far as keeping alcohol around goes, it's a personal choice that you should talk to your sponsor about. My wife drinks on occasion, and usually has some beer or wine in the fridge. I am actively involved in AA though, sober x 9 yrs., and I don't have the "urge" to drink it today. If I did, I would tell my wife, and I have no doubt she would get rid of it immediately because she knows how important my sobriety is. (And she never even knew me when I was drinking!) I would also talk to my sponsor about it and try to go to some more AA meetings. Some people I know would never be comfortable having it around no matter how much sobriety they have. Others may be fine with it even though they are newer in the program.

For me, I feel like being actively involved in AA is like an "insurance policy" that I will not relapse. I know that if I stopped going to meetings, it would be harder for me to be around alcohol. I would be more likely to relapse because I would forget all of the reasons I stay sober.


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## Chris H.

In response to ltjseng and m22,

Just for the record, I'm the same way. I have an "addictive personality" and I rarely do anything in moderation. There's no doubt in my mind that I could never drink "like a normal person." I'm very grateful that I've found a way to stay sober and change my life through AA.

I know it's not the solution for everyone, but for alcoholics like me, it works real good.


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> As far as keeping alcohol around goes, it's a personal choice that you should talk to your sponsor about. My wife drinks on occasion, and usually has some beer or wine in the fridge. I am actively involved in AA though, sober x 9 yrs., and I don't have the "urge" to drink it today. If I did, I would tell my wife, and I have no doubt she would get rid of it immediately because she knows how important my sobriety is.


the biggest problem i have is with carrying the label around. i do not have an urge or am i looking for an excuse to drink.

i have been told of this "addictive personality" thing, and i tend to agree. i was just hoping that i could "get over it." i hate thinking of myself as having that disease.

that's all.


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> the biggest problem i have is with carrying the label around. i do not have an urge or am i looking for an excuse to drink.
> 
> i have been told of this "addictive personality" thing, and i tend to agree. i was just hoping that i could "get over it." i hate thinking of myself as having that disease.
> 
> that's all.


Well the cool thing about "recovery" is that you take something bad like "alcoholism" and turn it into something good (staying sober, working the 12 steps to become a better person, and helping others who suffer from the "disease").

Today, I'm glad I'm an alcoholic because it's enabled me to become a better person through the process of recovery. Do I tell everyone I meet on the street? No. But once people get to know me a little they usually find out.

For me, recovery from alcoholism has been about turning my greatest weakness into one of my greatest strengths.

So the label "alcoholic" is only a bad thing if you don't live in the solution.


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> So the label "alcoholic" is only a bad thing if you don't live in the solution.


do you mean AA takes over the life???


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> do you mean AA takes over the life???


No, I mean as long as you live in the solution to the problem - not the problem itself. In other words, be a sober alcoholic who leads a good life - a fine example of recovery, and the label "alcoholic" will look good on you. 

If you live in the disease of alcoholism, and you are drunk, or even sober with all of the old behaviors (selfishness, insecurity, jealousy), then the label "alcoholic" takes on another meaning.

You don't have to walk around with a sign on your neck. In fact, you don't have to tell anyone. That's why it's "Alcoholics Anonymous" not "Public Alcoholics." The important thing is that you accept your alcoholism, and live a sober life.


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Although my past isn't out in the open, because I cheated once, I am an adultress. Like you, I wish I could erase it. i hate knowing that I am linked with that term. As Chris said, though, I can't allow it to define me. I use my broken past to be a better person and to warn others from falling into the same fruitless trap.


i just don't think i'm an alcoholic. i have made stupid mistakes while under the influence. mistakes i wish i could take back. i have made errors in judgement that are related to my "alcoholism." 

i don't know if it's a personality defect that cause stupid jealousy and control issues, or if it was the alcohol. i can't explain it. i know i have less trouble with those things now than before, but...


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## Chris H.

Do you think it's safe for you to drink again?


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> Do you think it's safe for you to drink again?


here's the conclusion i've come to. i can't have my family AND alcohol. my use of alcohol has stretched my wife's tolerance.
my only fear is that if my marriage does fail, i'm going right back in the sewer.

so i guess the answer is "no," it is not safe for me to drink again.


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> so i guess the answer is "no," it is not safe for me to drink again.


It's not for me either. That was the conclusion I came to when I worked the first step in AA and realized that I was powerless over alcohol.

Once I take the first drink, all bets are off and there's no telling where it will take me. Who knows if it will happen the first time I drink, or months, or years down the road? I can't risk it. 

The fact is, I like the way it makes me feel (at least temporarily while it's in my system), and I can't just have one or two like some people. I know how I'll want to feel and a few beers won't do it for me.

In my book, that makes me an alcoholic.

If you don't think it's safe for you to drink again, and still live the kind of life you want to live with your family, then I'd say there's a good chance you might be like me.

"Normal people" who aren't alcoholics, have no problem balancing family life, work, and having a few drinks every now and then.

Just keep going to meetings Voivod. Don't give up. You've worked hard to get where you're at.


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> Once I take the first drink, all bets are off and there's no telling where it will take me.


me too!!! and i know that from the get-go. i know that it's going to get crazy. and i don't really care if it does.


Chris H. said:


> The fact is, I like the way it makes me feel (at least temporarily while it's in my system), and I can't just have one or two like some people. I know how I'll want to feel and a few beers won't do it for me.


which is why i began drinking hard liquor. i hate the taste, but the buzz was cool. then i'd end up in stupid situations...


Chris H. said:


> Don't give up. You've worked hard to get where you're at.


my problem, upon review, is i have worked hard. where am i at? i'm sober, but miserable because my wife cannot see or admit that i am fine. i am getting sober for her and my kids. okay, for me too. but i've never been as motivated as i am now.


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> i'm sober, but miserable because my wife cannot see or admit that i am fine. .


Herein lies a problem. 

If you work the steps and get active in the program, you won't be playing the blame game, and you won't have time to be miserable.

You will be a lot more attractive to your wife if you are sober and happy because you are living in the solutions to your problems (going to meetings, talking to your sponsor about these things).

Do you have a sponsor in AA?

How often do you speak to him?

How many meetings per week are you making?

How long have you been sober now?

Getting sober for me was the most important thing I ever did. It may very well be one of the most important decisions you ever make too. Don't half-step it. It's your life we're talkin' about here.


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> Herein lies a problem.
> 
> If you work the steps and get active in the program, you won't be playing the blame game, and you won't have time to be miserable.
> 
> You will be a lot more attractive to your wife if you are sober and happy because you are living in the solutions to your problems (going to meetings, talking to your sponsor about these things).* i think i've burned her out. winning back her love has been the most difficult thing i've ever done.*
> 
> Do you have a sponsor in AA? *yes*
> 
> How often do you speak to him?*weekly*
> 
> How many meetings per week are you making?*1, originally a meeting per day*
> How long have you been sober now? *8 months on january 19th*


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## Chris H.

How far along are you in working the steps with your sponsor?

Judging by the way you started this thread, you may need to do some more work on step 1.

You should probably be making at least 3 meetings per week right now too. That may have a lot to do with you feeling down lately. 

When you get to step 3, and practice it daily, it should help you a lot in dealing with your wife.


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> You should probably be making at least 3 meetings per week right now too. That may have a lot to do with you feeling down lately.


meetings get me down chris. seeing all those people having such a tough time with substances...relapses every week!...these people don't know what they are doing to themselves AND their families! it wipes me out emotionally. i care, but i'm starting to hide my "care." if they keep losing control and relapsing, sometime i think "hell with them." terrible, i know.


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## Blanca

voivod said:


> these people don't know what they are doing to themselves AND their families! it wipes me out emotionally.


i actually stopped going to the combined alanon/AA meetings for this very reason. for me it was b/c i got so angry. my sister was married to an abusive alcoholic at the time and hearing some of the people really ticked me off.


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> meetings get me down chris. seeing all those people having such a tough time with substances...relapses every week!...these people don't know what they are doing to themselves AND their families! it wipes me out emotionally. i care, but i'm starting to hide my "care." if they keep losing control and relapsing, sometime i think "hell with them." terrible, i know.


There's a couple of things that might be going on here. One could be the mettings you're attending. I don't know what the area you live in is like, but in my area there are a lot of meetings to choose from, some with more long-term sobriety than others. My home group has many regulars with 10 and 20+ yrs of sobriety and a few with over 40. It's anything but depressing. If anything, the place should give people a lot of hope. On top of it all the group has a pretty good sense of humor.

So maybe you need to travel a little farther to find a good group?

The other problem could be that it's pretty normal for people to try and talk themselves out of going to meetings. There's plenty of times I don't feel like going, but I go anyway because I know I need to. It's not a question of whether or not I want to.

You also might be hanging around the wrong people. Don't hang out with people who are relapsing and not working the program. You're going to have to get involved with some people that have at least a few years sober, who are involved in the program, and excited about it. Do service work and stick with the people that have the hapiness you're looking for.




voivod said:


> these people don't know what they are doing to themselves AND their families! it wipes me out emotionally. i care, but i'm starting to hide my "care." if they keep losing control and relapsing, sometime i think "hell with them." terrible, i know.


My sponsor always says, when you're done taking other people's inventory, put your name on it. Your upset because you're seeing what you did to your family, and that hurts. It's fine if you want to say "the hell with them." People who are relapsing are only going to remind you how bad it is, and while that serves a purpose you don't need to be their best buddy to learn the lesson. You're not in much of a position to sponsor anyone right now, so you need to focus on saving your own ass. "Hell with them," is fine, don't feel guilty about it. Find some people in the program who have quality sobriety and are leading a happy life.


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## draconis

V~ my father in law was sober for two years than had a drink, it was over for him and he gave it up and went back to AA. He was near twenty years and figured a beer wouldn't hurt him, well the whole family knew and said nothing. His personality changed, money came up missing etc. Finally a cop pulled him over for DUI. His drinking was destroying the family while he thought he was doing okay. He didn't have the clarity that others did. Now his family is about all he has left.

Even if you are not an alcoholic is it worth risking your wife and family to try to prove a point? I have respect for what you did, what you are doing and how far you have come. Even though I don't respond as much anymore I still read everything you write and silently cheer you on. You have climbed mountians from when you first came here. We have cried with you, and prayed for you. 

A sign, a term it is just that. I could feel bad that I am called crippled etc. Some days are better than others. It matters who you are inside now. What you do and the choice you make. 

You say that you don't need the alcohol, okay prove everyone wrong and come back in twenty years and brag about being sober, huh?

draconis


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> My sponsor always says, when you're done taking other people's inventory, put your name on it. Your upset because you're seeing what you did to your family, and that hurts.


hurts??? i'll tell you what i see. i see guys and gals who are hanging on to what they have by the thinnest of threads...and they keep screwing up. me, on the other hand, am living the most honorable life, and it's not coming back. it pisses me off.


Chris H. said:


> you need to focus on saving your own ass. "Hell with them," is fine, don't feel guilty about it. Find some people in the program who have quality sobriety and are leading a happy life.


okay. i think i'm pretty self-centered right now and am trying to justify my efforts. you posted earlier that you thought i was looking for an excuse to drink. you were close, but nope.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Even if you are not an alcoholic is it worth risking your wife and family to try to prove a point? I have respect for what you did, what you are doing and how far you have come. Even though I don't respond as much anymore I still read everything you write and silently cheer you on. You have climbed mountians from when you first came here. We have cried with you, and prayed for you.


oh, i know i'm a loaded gun with regard to alcohol. but then again, isn't almost everybody in the same position asi am that has an alcohol problem. maybe it would be a good excuse if i failed.


draconis said:


> You say that you don't need the alcohol, okay prove everyone wrong and come back in twenty years and brag about being sober, huh?
> 
> draconis


drac--i promise you. i could do this forever.


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> me, on the other hand, am living the most honorable life, and it's not coming back.


Voivod, I'm sorry, but being in denial about your alcoholism, and trying to talk yourself out of going to the one meeting per week that you attend, all while not working the steps, is not what I call "living the most honorable life." You sound like someone on the verge of a relapse to me.

Hopefully I'm wrong.


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## Chris H.

btw, I'm only telling you this because I care. I don't want to see you throw away all the progress you've made.

Have you ever seen me post this many times on one thread before?


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> btw, I'm only telling you this because I care. I don't want to see you throw away all the progress you've made.
> 
> Have you ever seen me post this many times on one thread before?


no! i thought you were drunk. i'm kidding!


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## Chris H.

voivod said:


> no! i thought you were drunk. i'm kidding!



:toast:


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> Voivod, I'm sorry, but being in denial about your alcoholism, and trying to talk yourself out of going to the one meeting per week that you attend, all while not working the steps, is not what I call "living the most honorable life." You sound like someone on the verge of a relapse to me.
> 
> Hopefully I'm wrong.


i am not so sure that i am an alcoholic. that is not denial chris. i don't think the things i've done in the past (dui, poor behavior, bad decisions, etc.) would happen today. i just don't think i'm an alcoholic any more.

i'm not trying to "talk myself out of" attending meetings. the meetings for me were a form of therapy. when they ceased being therapeutic, my need for the meetings stopped. i don't need any more "therapy."

i used to be addicted to cocaine...and cigarettes. i never did any meetings for either, and frankly never did any 12 step program. i have not returned to either substance. yeah, maybe you could say that i COULD relapse and that would be a shame, but it's been 17 years since cocaine and 12 years since cigarettes. i think the risk is so low that there would be some case i would make for meetings giving me diminishing returns.

and you seem to be saying that i cannot live an honorable life without attending meetings. you know that is not true. why would you make that statement?

originally, i wondered whether i might be "cured" of alcoholism or not. it has become apparent to me through several discussions with my sponsor as well as our exchange here that AA needs "cured" people more than "cured" people need AA.

finally, i may be on the verge of a relapse. but if i make it through this stage, my confidence in my sobriety will be immense.


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## GAsoccerman

would you be willing to take an expensive medical test to see if you are? to help yourself with your feelings? for validity?


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## voivod

GAsoccerman said:


> would you be willing to take an expensive medical test to see if you are? to help yourself with your feelings? for validity?


yeah, except for the expense. i've made a life out of proving the system wrong.


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## GAsoccerman

I wonder if you ahve Medical insurance that would cover it? 

ever look into it? I think the lawyer was playing you anyway.


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## Chris H.

To the best of my knowledge - I don't think someone can be "diagnosed" with alcoholism 8 mos. after the fact. I'm not sure what kind of test the therapist was referring to, but I don't think it would be very accurate if you gave it to someone who hadn't drank in 8 months.



> i am not so sure that i am an alcoholic. that is not denial chris. i don't think the things i've done in the past (dui, poor behavior, bad decisions, etc.) would happen today. i just don't think i'm an alcoholic any more.


That's exactly what denial is.



> i'm not trying to "talk myself out of" attending meetings. the meetings for me were a form of therapy. when they ceased being therapeutic, my need for the meetings stopped. i don't need any more "therapy."


You might want to change your signature line then.



> i used to be addicted to cocaine...and cigarettes. i never did any meetings for either, and frankly never did any 12 step program. i have not returned to either substance. yeah, maybe you could say that i COULD relapse and that would be a shame, but it's been 17 years since cocaine and 12 years since cigarettes. i think the risk is so low that there would be some case i would make for meetings giving me diminishing returns.


You're really not building a case for yourself here, all signs point to alcoholism / addiction. You ever heard the saying, "if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck?"

Just because you go from one addiction to the next doesn't mean you don't have a problem.



> and you seem to be saying that i cannot live an honorable life without attending meetings. you know that is not true. why would you make that statement?


I feel like an honorable life means being honest with yourself. I feel like you're just going to AA to apease your wife. As soon as you get her back (maybe before?) you're going to quit. If or when you relapse, whether it be alcohol or something else, things will start getting bad for everyone again.

If I can see this through the limited conversations we've had, don't you think your wife can see it?



> i'm sober, but miserable because my wife cannot see or admit that i am fine.


 
Voivod, I really hope you're "cured." I think most professionals in the substance abuse field would tell you that it doesn't happen too often though, especially after 8 months. Who knows, maybe you're a rare exception.


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## voivod

Chris H. said:


> That's exactly what denial is.
> *in my case wouldn't denial include some kind of existing symptoms? i don't think there ARE any. refer back to my cocaine "addiction" either a) i was NOT addicted or ;b) i am "cured" or ;c) im in denial. make a case for c. i'll listen.*
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to change your signature line then. *you know me. i work in reverse!!! fixing, you know!*
> 
> 
> 
> You're really not making a cae for yourself here, all signs point to alcoholism / addiction. You ever heard the saying, "if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck?" *yeah, but it ain't quacking anymore. is the duck dead? can the duck EVER die??*
> 
> Just because you go from one addiction to the next doesn't mean you don't have a problem.
> *i didn't say i don't have a PROBLEM. i had a problem when i buried myself in 18 hours a day of work. or when i became obsessed with fitness. i can't find a meeting for either of those problems though.*
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like an honorable life means being honest with yourself. I feel like you're just going to AA to apease your wife. As soon as you get her back (maybe before?) you're going to quit. If or when you relapse, whether it be alcohol or something else, things will start getting bad for everyone again.you may be right. *my question still stands. can i be "cured?"*
> 
> If I can see this through the limited conversations we've had, don't you think your wife can see it?*see through what. don't summarily grant yourself sage status based on a conclusion you've unilaterally reached. reminds me of the geometry student proving a right angle by saying "i know what a right angle looks like, and THAT'S a right angle."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voivod, I really hope you're "cured." I think most professionals in the substance abuse field would tell you that it doesn't happen too often though, especially after 8 months. Who knows, maybe you're a rare exception.


*no offense to your profession intended, but psychology field has been willing to admit that it's time to rewrite the past hundred years of that science. maybe i'm anomalous. i just thin you'll never see me sip another sip of alcohol.*


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Drac, just wanted you to know that we're missin' ya, bud. Hope you're doing okay. Take care.


i just though you were taking some time off drac---

miss ya bud...check in...tell us you're okay....

not *drunk*, i hope... the title of the thread...joke (?)


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## voivod

chris h.
i sure would like to see your reponse to post #36...i was in no way trying to disparage you...i'd like to hear your opinions specificall on these items:

>>>"You're really not making a cae for yourself here, all signs point to alcoholism / addiction. You ever heard the saying, "if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck?" yeah, but it ain't quacking anymore. is the duck dead? can the duck EVER die??<<<"

and this:

>>>"If I can see this through the limited conversations we've had, don't you think your wife can see it?see through what. don't summarily grant yourself sage status based on a conclusion you've unilaterally reached. reminds me of the geometry student proving a right angle by saying "i know what a right angle looks like, and THAT'S a right angle."<<<

and this:

>>>"in my case wouldn't denial include some kind of existing symptoms? i don't think there ARE any. refer back to my cocaine "addiction" either a) i was NOT addicted or ;b) i am "cured" or ;c) im in denial. make a case for c. i'll listen."<<<

i just want your opinion based on my responses...please don't avoid the questions because you might be taking it as a personal attack, because it's not...


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## draconis

Voivod~ I think you are looking at this all wrong. Does it matter more that you are aor are not an alcoholic as to what a single drink would do to your marriage?

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Voivod~ I think you are looking at this all wrong. Does it matter more that you are aor are not an alcoholic as to what a single drink would do to your marriage?
> 
> draconis


i get that, but to have to sit there and say "hi i'm chris and i'm an alcoholic" around all these other relapse queens make me feel hypocritical...i'm NOT going for me... i figured it out, i'm going for a result...i've achieved that result, it runs counter to the AA mantra, which is step one...


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## draconis

V~ you haven't gotten that result, which is to heal the harm to your marriage. How will she feel if you back out? What else might you step away from?

Not everyone is a strong as you, but the point is even after being told not to have that beer (after the stroke) YOU DID, because YOU didn't think it was an issue. Well she did, and does still. What could drinking do to your health? Want another stroke, or to scare the heck out of your family?

Sometimes you suck it up and humble yourself. Sometimes you need that balance in your life.

The greatest lesson about AA you are still missing, I can tell.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> V~ you haven't gotten that result, which is to heal the harm to your marriage. How will she feel if you back out? What else might you step away from?
> 
> Not everyone is a strong as you, but the point is even after being told not to have that beer (after the stroke) YOU DID, because YOU didn't think it was an issue. Well she did, and does still. What could drinking do to your health? Want another stroke, or to scare the heck out of your family?
> 
> Sometimes you suck it up and humble yourself. Sometimes you need that balance in your life.
> 
> The greatest lesson about AA you are still missing, I can tell.
> 
> draconis


okay...i'll bite...what is the greatest lesson? because i don't think i'm stupid...yet i'm missing it...

"hello, i'm chris, and some people think i'm an alcoholic...and i don't want to mock anyone here, but if i let you in on my little secret, the lid would come off this joint."


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## draconis

Humility and self exploration. When a person humbles themselves to God or themselves they search for other ways to make themselves better people. I have told you time and again that I saw real growth in you. Maybe because you felt humbled by just being here, or you had to admit to the darkness that lies in all of us. But through your exploration you found things aout yourself and changed through the process. I felt humbled knowing you and all you had to do to win back Beth. All you did along the way and the great frustration you felt but did it anyways.

My father in law was a truck driver something I didn't mention in the above story. Just being away from AA, did him in. Maybe that will not happen to you, maybe it will. But the fact is alcohol affected your health, and it affected your marriage. Why chance it?

In the end all choices are yours alone. I'll give you suggestions of what I might do. In the past you have overcome other addictions which is great but it shows something else much deeper and darker. You have an addictive personality.

It isn't to say that you are a bad person, in fact I believe that overcoming the challenges in our lives define us.

Is Beth and your kids worth it? Is your pride really worth what you can lose?

The fact that you are questioning if you are an alcoholic makes me worried for you. I pray for your health and happiness nightly. I have followed every post from the beginning, and even cried happiness for you a few times.

I have seen the ill effects of alcoholism on a family. But the truth is in how people around you view it. Why fight the label? WHy fight with the idea of going to AA?

Has AA shown you weakness in others, the fragile nature of humanity? Have you had to question yourself? I go atleast once a year with my father in law. I feel humbled being there, I question what I can do better in my life, and for my family. I look at some people there and say I never want to need to be there, or be in a situation that it might effect my life. I don't want to have to fix a problem I can just avoid entirely.

Maybe it is time to look deeper into why this label bothers you, or the people that are weaker than you bothers you. Maybe all your soul searching isn't done yet or you have made a choice and are trying to figure it out. WHy did you bring up the topic to begin with?

You know the first councilor didn't work for you and Beth so you found someone other than Rice. Why can't you do that here?

draconis


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## Chris H.

Voivod,

I've stated my opinion, and it seems like we disagree. That's ok. We don't have to agree on everything. There's no sense in going back and forth about semantics.

Chris


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## voivod

what are we disagreeing on. my question...given my circumstances...has never been answered in the history of the "alcoholic" diagnosis?!?!? there has never been a case when a doctor can document someone being "cured"????

that is my point...and it's not semantics...the only way you are cured is if they bury you. once you have the disease you always have it.

the other side of the coin is eliminating risk. so if you live on the moon where there is no booze (i know ridiculous, but to illustrate a point) are you then cured???

thank you for your concern guys, but i'm not going to drink or "relapse" if you prefer. that's not a balloon i'm floating out there. i just never hear of a guy who is cured, but i hear lots of relapse stories. it's the most one-sided disease i've ever heard of.


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## draconis

Okay let's look at it this way. I have a rare form of MD, for which there is no cure and no way to ever get better. Staying the same is the best I can ever hope for. The not regressing, no relapse, no injure is the prefered. Like alcoholism I don't get better, and I will never be cured. So there are many things like alcoholism out there, the difference is alcoholism is an addiction. I was born with what I have and dianosed at 28 after decades of symptoms. 

Me like alcoholics only get cured at death when I suffer no more. I to can eliminate some risks, eat healthy, physical training, protecting my muscles from the slightest damage. Avoiding extreme heat (over 85) and cold (under 45), see the doctors regular. The comparison is scary.

draconis


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## voivod

okay, that makes sense, but my "symptoms" are non-existant. as "disease" is concerned i am asymptomatic. as addiction is concerned, it's as though the substance i am addicted to does not exist. i don't think i was arguing semantics. i am the enigma that AA does not need.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> okay, that makes sense, but my "symptoms" are non-existant. as "disease" is concerned i am asymptomatic. as addiction is concerned, it's as though the substance i am addicted to does not exist. i don't think i was agruing semantics. i am the enigma that AA does not need.


Have you thought about private counciling or a different AA group?

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Have you thought about private counciling or a different AA group?
> 
> draconis


drac--
okay, for what? it's a serious question. why do i need private counseling for alcohol if i think i'm done? or a different AA group?


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## voivod

understand this...i'm not placing myself in harms way...and not needlessly exposing myself to risk...i just had a question...and based upon my circumstances, maybe the point is moot...i'm kinda arrogant about my alcohol situation...i really did wanna get a feeling for the "cured" thing...maybe no one is willing to make an arms-length call on this, but i believe i have my answer. i'm a gambler, but i never go all-in without having a pretty good idea of what the table looks like...i don't need a drink...and i'm having a hard time putting a value to AA...maybe that's my problem


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## humpty dumpty

you cant be cured from being a acholoic, but what you can do is to work through each day making the most of your time . At the back of your mind im sure you think of having a drink and you have been strong enough to with hold .be glad of that and continue to work on your marriage .
If not drinking and going to aa meetings could keep me with the person i love then id continue to get all the help and support that was on offer ..


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## voivod

humpty dumpty said:


> At the back of your mind im sure you think of having a drink and you have been strong enough to with hold .be glad of that and continue to work on your marriage .
> If not drinking and going to aa meetings could keep me with the person i love then id continue to get all the help and support that was on offer ..


okay...but a drink is not in my mind, back or front...

not drinking may or may not keep me with the person i love...the sad thing is my drinking is forever seared into her brain...i think i've affected her that much. that sucks...that i've changed someone's thinking that much. that the person i love i'm sure would like me to be able to drink socially, because i'm *very* good socially...but i've proven what an a$$ i can be with alcohol, i can't go back there without scaring the crap out of her...plus my health is too important now...


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## voivod

i found this interesting:

Help for Addiction - The Real Truth about Recovery


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## Chris H.

There's a ton of anti-AA and alternative treatment stuff out there these days. Anti-Psychiatry is getting more and more popular too. Some of the information is bad because it attacks treatment methodologies that have helped thousands of people over the years. But the info that respects different forms of treatment and the fact that not one solution works for everyone is probably better imo.


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## MarkTwain

draconis said:


> Okay let's look at it this way. I have a rare form of MD, for which there is no cure and no way to ever get better. Staying the same is the best I can ever hope for.


Are you absolutly ruling out a cure for all time? Medicine is advancing every day. Can you be sure the above statement is the utter utter truth?


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## MarkTwain

This thread covers many things I feel very strongly about. I did not know about the dangers and depths of alcoholism until nearly 10 years ago when a couple of alcoholics entered my life. It's the chaos that frightens me the most. As Drac said, it's a darkness.

I dare not give all my views here mostly because I don't want to set people like V off on the wrong path, but I do believe people with addictions can be cured of that particular addiction. However, I wonder if someone with an addictive personality would simply gravitate towards another "itch to scratch".

With alcoholics in particular, it seems that their brain can develop a pathway that "requires" alcohol. If this is so, then it would follow that even if that pathway can be made fainter, it can never be totally erased. So perhaps it ultimately comes down to whether a person can see that pathway and not indulge it.

I was never an alcoholic, but I only drink a single beer on the odd business lunch, with food: 7 times a year, maybe. I used to drink a bit more, but every time I have any at all it feels like I am filling my body with poison. My wife has come to the same conclusion.


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## draconis

MarkTwain said:


> Are you absolutly ruling out a cure for all time? Medicine is advancing every day. Can you be sure the above statement is the utter utter truth?


In my life time yes.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

Drac,

Let's hope you're wrong. 

On a much much smaller scale, my teeth are full of fillings, due to too many sweets as a kid. I am hoping that if I can put off having anything drastic done now, I can get "new" ones one day when the technology is there. It's nearly there now, but I'm hoping for even better.

Anyway, I realise you were only making a point about denial...
Sorry to go off topic


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Drac,
> Anyway, I realise you were only making a point about denial...
> Sorry to go off topic


on a similar note:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html


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## MarkTwain

I'm not sure about that link, Voivod, but one thing I do know: there are very few people who have the insight and the guts to turn their life around. And you need both.

And when life throws up people like myself who _did_ do it, one wonders if it was by self-effort, good fortune, or grace.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> You say that you don't need the alcohol, okay prove everyone wrong and come back in twenty years and brag about being sober, huh?
> draconis


how bout i come back a year at a time rather than in twenty years? helllloooo...i'm back...add a year to my sobriety...


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> how bout i come back a year at a time rather than in twenty years? helllloooo...i'm back...add a year to my sobriety...


OK, it's duly noted, only 19 to go 
But seriously Voivod: :smthumbup:


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> OK, it's duly noted, only 19 to go
> But seriously Voivod: :smthumbup:


good to see you back on the scene MT...hope all is relatively well for you.

FYI- truthfully, there are times when i wouldn't mind a beer. or a spliff...


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## Chris H.

Glad you've made it Voivod...keep up the good work!


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## MarkTwain

All is well.


voivod said:


> FYI- truthfully, there are times when i wouldn't mind a beer. or a spliff...


To be honest, I don't even drink now. The only thing I sometimes have is strong -and I mean strong- coffee  I used to have it every day, but it seems to be more of a 2-3 times a week thing now. I woke up with a woolly head this morning, so of course I fixed me a big one.


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## voivod

still sober...no issues...no booze is okay with me.


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## Cara

Maybe you were never a genuine "alcoholic". 

Abusing alcohol, or any drug, does not mean you are automatically addicted, it just means you abused the substance. 

I also do not believe everyone who gets a DUI is an alcoholic. It's a just huge mistake sometimes & if it was 10 years ago for you, it looks like you learned from it.


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## voivod

Cara said:


> Maybe you were never a genuine "alcoholic".
> 
> Abusing alcohol, or any drug, does not mean you are automatically addicted, it just means you abused the substance.
> 
> I also do not believe everyone who gets a DUI is an alcoholic. It's a just huge mistake sometimes & if it was 10 years ago for you, it looks like you learned from it.


boy oh boy cara! i'd have LOVED for you to have been a fly on the wall at a "meeting" or two that i went to. that was/is my point.

i was GOOD at the sport of drinking. i was also GOOD at the sport of cocaine. i was also GOOD at the sport of cigarettes. and i was GOOD at the sport of pornography. but i did hafta play all the time. in fact i quit all those nasty habits "cold turkey" without ever admitting that i had no control over any of the, which, to me, is like admitting that you are defeated.

sorry, AA, NA, ETC.


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