# EAs become PAs unless OM backs down



## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

First of all let me tell you that is not my intention to open old wounds or insult other users because I will be mentioning some TAM users to exemplify my theory.

for years before oficially joining TAM I was a lurker devoring and Reading every case of infidelity I was able to find in forums like: love shack. Marriage Builders, TAM, Marriage helpers, experience Project, etc. 

I realized the once the woman is emotionally engaged with OM the affair will become PA unless OM backs down, yes we know the , methods as exposure and contacting OM's partner but even with all of this, if OM is still willing to pursue the WW the affair will become physica eventually.

there was a case in love shack if remember correctly (it was in my time as lurker, so I did not followed the cases properly atthe time) where the BS found about an EA, his wife who was bartender was texting all the time a man who was after her, the OM was married. 

Well long story short, he did everything correctly, exposure to family, friends and OM's wife, GPS in the phone, VAR in the car, and she promised to stop comntacting OM, of course she keep contacting him, he finally kicked her out, she went to a motel, but he keep monitring her and found that OM went shortly to the Motel, he inmediatly called OM's wife and she went also to the motel, they called the police but they refused to leave the room.

They spend the night together and of course both denied intercourse, both invented stupid excuses, OM's wife was inclined to believe them (after many hours of excuses from her husband) but the OP was sure they had intercourse, after many events, lies she confessed (because her husband tricked her) and they were finally ready to reconcile and she stoped contacting OM.

now at the time I thought this was an Isoleted event but I have seen that this situation repeats alot, once the woman in emotionally engaged to OM, if he keep pursuing her without caring for the consequences most likely he will take her to bed, we have also some examples in TAM:

"HerHusband" found about the EA and tried to everything in the book, including exposure to their own sons and finally kicked her out and she went directly to OM arms, in this case OM was single so he had no reason to back down (she eventually returned to Herhusband but after the affair became physical)

"devastateddad" he did not expose the EA, but he kicked her out for a while, he confronted OM and he promised to stop, CM and DevastatedDad cried alot and even begin a kind of R, but OM keep presuing CM and we know what happened.

"Mr Mathias" kind of the same, he found out before it was full intercourse, confronted Mrs Mathias and OM but OM keep pursuing her and again it happened.

so it looks like unless exposure affects significantly OM to make him back down, if he keep pursuing a woman already emotionally engaged with him, the affair will become physical eventually.

what do you think?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

With few exceptions, for the most part you're right... The PA is just a physical expression of the emotional. For most women, sex is VERY emotional so once you capture their mind, they will hand over their body eagerly. In those scenarios, they don't do because they are looking for an orgasm. They do it to feel close to the person and consumate the relationship they have build up in their mind. To make the fantasy a reality in you will. 

I busted my exwife in 2007 on a EA that SHE tried to make physical but I had caught and stopped in time. The ex-boyfriend had dumped her after I found out because he feared I would tell his then girlfriend. She swore to me it would never happen again. I told her then if it had gone physical we would of been through. Fast forward four years later after a long gap in contact they found each other on facebook and after the second time they met up it ended up going physical anyway. Of course he dumped her again shortly after that....


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

McGraw said outright on his TV show that most emotional affairs do become physical affairs.

Not all do of course, but I think you are suggesting the same thing McGraw does... that most will unless some big change happens.


This may be just me, but I find all this pursuing married women, texting, sneaking around to hotels... this is all just very creepy!

This is not at all like conventional dating.

"Infidelity dating" or whatever you want to call it.. it just seems more like something a pedophile would be doing rather than a normal adult.

I honeslty don't know how these men and woman can get it in their head that this is healthy, romantic, or what being "in love" is like.

Seriously, it all just strikes me as terribly creepy and unsavory...

I am shocked this stuff isnt' illegal to be honest...


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

I tend to agree that a woman on the emotional high tends to want to stay there, and will do what the OM wants to keep that feed of feel-good coming.

Men are in affairs for sex, period.There's a lot of feigned outrage here when you say that, but when you cut out the BS, they want to get laid.

So yes, once the woman is on his hook emotionally, reeling her in takes no effort at all.

That's why I'm a HUGE believer in husbands being aggressive c*ck blocks at all times, and why I don't believe that men and woman can really be ever "just friends". My wife doesn't need any really close guy friends and I know I should not be cozy with any woman but her.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

I totally agree...
STEP one is to MAKE the OM go away, to MAKE the OM dump your wife with prejudice...easy if he is married, wishes to stay married, and his wife isnt a complete (whats the female version of cuckold) idiot...

After the OM shows his true colors, that of a man willing to f**k a married women regardless of what that does to her kids and the father of her kids, once he shows he is GONE the second it becomes work, she will realize he is a pos and come out of the fog

the OM is like a Vampire...unless you can stop him from biting his victim, she will slowly become more and more HIS untile it is too late...

It is easier when the OM is married, but what if the OM is single and truly in love with her...I wont advocate violence in writing, but...er...I do advocate it...if I ever got called to jury duty and it was a husband and father on trial for killing his cheating wifes lover, GOOD EFFING luck getting a guilty outa me...innocent, acquital, hung jury...whatever...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You can't argue with that.

I would also like to add that infidelity has so many variables that the scenarios are endless.

I also want to add that exposure to the AP spouse is so important cuz when both betrayed are in direct contact then the information can be shared with regards to what the AP tells his/her spouse versus what the AP tells the wayward.

For example, if the OMW was being told by the AP the he loves her and will never leave and the WW was the one that pursued and obsessed and she meant "nothing" and the WW found this out well then it would break down some of the A fog the WW has. I would think it would break down some of the engagement she had for OM even if the OM was telling the WW exactly the same thing...and vise versa if it was a WH and female AP.
This example would be part of the significant effects you mentioned but on the WW end.

So even though the OM continues to pursue the WW...with the right strategy one can have a significant effect in disengaging the WW from OM.

But then again lets not try to put to much logic to something so illogical as an affair.LOL


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> This may be just me, but I find all this pursuing married women, texting, sneaking around to hotels... this is all just very creepy!
> 
> This is not at all like conventional dating.
> 
> ...



Well that's easy... It's because a cruel twist of fate is keeping two soul mates from being with each other. The evil BS's will do what ever it takes to destroy their "love". So they HAVE to sneak around and do in motels, cars whatever because they have no choice!

Apparently, leaving your spouse first never occured to them. I guess plain sex is too boring if it's not illicit...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Lets not forget the ONS...or as I like to call them ONEA.
After all we all know there has to be some emotional attachment before they end up in the back seat of a car.

Is the OM really going to back down in this scenario?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> STEP one is to MAKE the OM go away, to MAKE the OM dump your wife with prejudice...easy if he is married, wishes to stay married, and his wife isnt a complete (whats the female version of cuckold) idiot...
> 
> After the OM shows his true colors, that of a man willing to f**k a married women regardless of what that does to her kids and the father of her kids, once he shows he is GONE the second it becomes work, she will realize he is a pos and come out of the fog
> 
> the OM is like a Vampire...unless you can stop him from biting his victim, she will slowly become more and more HIS untile it is too late...


Exactly right... IF you want to save your marriage.

For me personally, why? Why should I have to do all that? Why can't I have someone whose not so selfish and who wants to be with me? Why would I want a woman who is so eager to f*** someone else? Who is so ready to lie to me and so stupid to believe that the OM really cares about her and that I don't?

The answer is no one wants that but most people who reconcile think they can change their spouses back to the "way they were" when in reality this IS who they are and what you married into was a lie. Yeah there's all the years you spent in the relationship and kids to consider but those are excuses. I DON'T want to live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder.

That's not for me.... Once a cheat always a cheat. You can NEVER fully trust them again.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Since this is a promarriage site that many come here to do just that...save there marriage.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Exactly right... IF you want to save your marriage.
> 
> For me personally, why? Why should I have to do all that? Why can't I have someone whose not so selfish and who wants to be with me? Why would I want a woman who is so eager to f*** someone else? Who is so ready to lie to me and so stupid to believe that the OM really cares about her and that I don't?
> 
> ...


AMEN!!!
Cheaters lie about the cheating, then lie about WHY...THEN they lie about R, why they want R, how the feel during R...for a cheater their marriage is one big fat greasy disgusting lie that only gies away with divorce...my opinions


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

the guy said:


> For example, if the OMW was being told by the AP the he loves her and will never leave and the WW was the one that pursued and obsessed and she meant "nothing" and the WW found this out well then it would break down some of the A fog the WW has. I would think it would break down some of the engagement she had for OM even if the OM was telling the WW exactly the same thing...and vise versa if it was a WH and female AP.
> This example would be part of the significant effects you mentioned but on the WW end.
> 
> So even though the OM continues to pursue the WW...with the right strategy one can have a significant effect in disengaging the WW from OM.


Agree

but see, this is what it makes it more cruel, devastating, frustating and leaving BSs with the feeling of impotance, the determinant factor to stop the EA becoming PA is not in the women hands but in the actions of the POSOM.

Again don't want to insult users, just using it as example because those are the cases where we have full documentation of both parts (BS and WS)

In "CM" and "Mrs Mathias" cases both saw how much they were hurting their spouses in "CM" case she even saw her kids crying and devastated while "devastateddad" kicked her out of the house, and still they were not able to stop themselves of betraying their husbands and taking the affair to a physical level.

but they were not exceptional cases, they are probably the normal ocurrence.

I remember other similar case, in marriage builders "wulfpackgirl" have a popular thread, this woman have been 5 years trying to win back her husband, again similar circumstances, he foud about the affair when was still emotional, tried to stop it, she apperently stoped and the affair went underground and it bacame physical.

now "wulfpackgirl" hates POSOM, she realized she was in a fantazy, she have been fighting really hard for 5 years now I think, to get her husband back but we can not blame the husband for not wanting her back because he feels he is second best, he found the EA tried to stop it, he was not able and it was until he found the PA and POSOM throw her under the bus that "wulfpackgirl" woke up from the fog


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It all makes sense, after all once that snow ball start rolling all bets are off and these cheater end up in a back seat of a car or behind a dumpster in some alley...

I use theses referenced locations to make a point in how phucked up they (cheaters) are when it gets to the point of a PA. They will be with the "soul mate" no matter what and if making "love" in a trash can is what it will take then so be it.

I'm kind of directing this to Allen.....you see the fog can be so thick that all logic is gone, so meeting in a hotel or behind a dumpster it really doesn't matter the woman cheater is emotionally engaged and the male cheater just want to get off.

So unless the OM/OW says " I like you and all but I don't like you enough to lay in the alley and have sex" they are going to have sex...even in the proverbial dumpster.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The EA may not become a PA based on what the woman was looking for. If she just wanted attention --and prided herself on being the type of woman who doesn't have to put out -- well, that OM is going to be left high and dry.

My fiance had some unfinished business when I met him. He had reconnected with someone he used to date. Seems like she could come alive with the prevalence of competition. Come alive she did, until he went in for the kiss. this after, he had closed 2 bar tabs for her and her friends in the span of 2 weeks (....one of them 3 figures).


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The EA may not become a PA based on what the woman is looking for. If she just wanted attention --and prided herself on being the type of woman who doesn't have to put out -- well, that OM is going to be left high and dry.

My fiance had some unfinished business when I met him. He had reconnected with someone he used to date. Seems like she could come alive with the prevalence of competition. Come alive she did, until he went in for the kiss. this after, he had closed 2 bar tabs for her and her friends in the span of 2 weeks (....one of them 3 figures).


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> The EA may not become a PA based on what the woman is looking for. If she just wanted attention --and prided herself on being the type of woman who doesn't have to put out -- well, that OM is going to be left high and dry.
> 
> My fiance had some unfinished business when I met him. He had reconnected with someone he used to date. Seems like she could come alive with the prevalence of competition. Come alive she did, until he went in for the kiss. this after, he had closed 2 bar tabs for her and her friends in the span of 2 weeks (....one of them 3 figures).


Is true that I have hear of cases where the woman is just there for the attention, but see this cases the woman knows what she is doing, she knows she is playing a role to get attention from a third party, and even so in this cases I have also read how they sometimes end being played in the end.

Now your example don't fit what we will call an emotional affair, is true that they had story, but for what you describe, he went looking for her to make a move and she was totally unaware of it (or better said, maybe she knew, but she was taking advantage of him) and he tried to take the opportunity when she was drunk.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Now your example don't fit what we will call an emotional affair, is true that they had story, but for what you describe, he went looking for her to make a move and she was totally unaware of it (or better said, maybe she knew, but she was taking advantage of him) and he tried to take the opportunity when she was drunk.


I think once a woman gets used to treating a guy like a eunuch, she will be caught by surprise when he does something manly like go in for an open mouth kiss.

It was later referred to by him as a pity kiss which she said in an e-mail does not exist. I think I agree with her on that one.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

I guess I just don't really see a meaningful distinction between EA and PA. Betrayal is betrayal. Commit either and it is over. At least for me.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

while I agree that both are incredible hurtful and betrayals in the end, we can not deny that both are perceived different, we like to think that as long as the physical barrier has not been trespassed, is becuase in a level the spouse was still loyal, and respected the "sacred bond" by not taking it to a physical level (delusional I know, but even I think alittle like that).

and we can see how that is the general mentality

studies say that more tan 80% of of cases where there was just EA the marriage survived the affair, while in the cases where there was PA it was less that 1/3 of the cases.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Once saw a situation like this with a couple and OM that were all in an extended group of friends I was also part of.

The H was basically a good guy, a little insensitive to his W at times, but definitely not an a**hole.

The POSOM was a smooth talking player with no SO.

BH caught them calling each other (before texting or FB). She confessed it was almost daily contact and had become flirty. She said she would stop.

BH told POS to back off. Guy apologized and promised to go away.

Of course, instead he continued to pursue.

BH found out WW had kept contact and was now meeting POS for coffee and at the mall to shop/hang out. He went ballistic and threatened D. 

WW could not explain why she couldn't break contact, but she swore it had not gone physical (and of course she would never let it go there,,,typical bs)

The only thing that probably prevented it from going further was the fact that BH finally told others in our friend group what was going on.

Three of the guys in our friend group stopped by POS's place one day and had a discussion with him. There was no violence, but the message was clear. Continue to F with their M and there would be a healthy a** whooping coming his way (one of them was the BH's cousin).

POS finally backed off as he knew they were serious. His player ways were one thing with single women in the clubs, but once he crossed the line to screwing with a friend's M, he was put on notice that there would definitely be a price to pay.

Point is, unless a POSOM sees a serious downside to his behavior, he will continue.

Any action a BH takes better be strong enough to make him run.

My friend got lucky. He never asked his cousin to step in like that. The cousin took the initiative to check POS's behavior on his own. 

I truly believe that if this intervention had not taken place, POS would have eventually nailed the WW and wrecked their M entirely.

In the end, the couple was able to repair the damage and move on.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

manticore said:


> while I agree that both are incredible hurtful and betrayals in the end, we can not deny that both are perceived different, we like to think that as long as the physical barrier has not been trespassed, is becuase in a level the spouse was still loyal, and respected the "sacred bond" by not taking it to a physical level (delusional I know, but even I think alittle like that).
> 
> and we can see how that is the general mentality
> 
> studies say that more tan 80% of of cases where there was just EA the marriage survived the affair, while in the cases where there was PA it was less that 1/3 of the cases.


I am sure if we could look at those survived 1/3 marriages in more details - it would turned out than it's mostly cheating husbands and forgiving wives.

It's very difficult for men to overcome the physical part. For women it's more difficult to overcome the emotional part. 

So, to sum up - men have affairs mainly for sex and women mainly for love :smthumbup:


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> POS finally backed off as he knew they were serious. His player ways were one thing with single women in the clubs, but once he crossed the line to screwing with a friend's M, he was put on notice that there would definitely be a price to pay.
> 
> Point is, unless a POSOM sees a serious downside to his behavior, he will continue.
> 
> ...


Well done cousin!


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

What I've found, is when women fall in love, what actually happens is they get hooked on the feeling their lover gives them. At that point they'll do anything to keep that feeling. Because sex is what often times hooks the man, it becomes a natural way to ensure they keep getting that feeling. So yes, I agree with OP.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> I tend to agree that a woman on the emotional high tends to want to stay there, and will do what the OM wants to keep that feed of feel-good coming.
> 
> *Men are in affairs for sex, period.There's a lot of feigned outrage here when you say that, but when you cut out the BS, they want to get laid.*
> 
> So yes, once the woman is on his hook emotionally, reeling her in takes no effort at all.


Not according to my WH. He was just in it for the thrill of getting the OWs to send him pics and naughty messages.  :rofl:


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> I tend to agree that a woman on the emotional high tends to want to stay there, and will do what the OM wants to keep that feed of feel-good coming.
> 
> Men are in affairs for sex, period.There's a lot of feigned outrage here when you say that, but when you cut out the BS, they want to get laid.
> 
> ...


I agree with the first 4 sentences here and the thesis of the thread. Sadly. Things I wish I had never considered. 

I don't think it is part of the job of husband to swat d*cks away from his wife. I also do not subscribe to the view that married women should not have male friends. My wife has many. Always has. Most of those that come to mind now are healthy friendships. The more my wife and I have healthy friendships, the healthier I think we are, together or apart. Lots of friendships are not healthy at all. And some I think may be mostly good but unhealthy in some maybe really important respects. No one married who is committed to staying married should spend much time with a friend who does not support the marriage or is critical of their spouse. I believe that basic guideline in a friendship leaves plenty of room for counsel and advice. My perhaps simple view is that a married woman should not flirt with a male friend. That is where affairs and maybe other problems start. Shouldn't flirt with anyone to take it a step further and perhaps farther than many here would. Not with the UPS guy or mailman, not with the waiter, not with a work colleague or boss, not with anyone. I think some here may talk about this in terms of boundaries. No laughing excessively at whatever inane attempts at humor or charm. No saccharine. No loaded innuendo. Don't pursue a conversation into their romantic or sex lives. Just don't do it. In my current and perhaps very narrow view, it is a display of exaggerated or coquettish attention or inquisitiveness into romantic or sex life. There is more, to be sure. But all of it unmistakably made in anticipation of what attention may be returned. And that is the hit that keeps on hitting. Flirting is the route of all evil, in the world of extramarital affairs anyway.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> McGraw said outright on his TV show that most emotional affairs do become physical affairs.
> 
> Not all do of course, but I think you are suggesting the same thing McGraw does... that most will unless some big change happens.
> 
> ...


To be honest though Allen, you do come across as being rather too holier-than-thou, naive and having such a high moral compass....that it too, is a little 'creepy'. :scratchhead:


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

davecarter said:


> To be honest though Allen, you do come across as being rather too holier-than-thou, naive and having such a high moral compass....that it too, is a little 'creepy'. :scratchhead:


The idea of making it illegal is a little Puritan, but I tend to agree that the affair sneaking around like teenagers in heat is both creepy and unsavory.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> The idea of making it illegal is a little Puritan, but I tend to agree that the affair sneaking around like teenagers in heat is both creepy and unsavory.


But that's what happens to 'Waywards' and their 'Others': it's _exactly _like what happens when a single man or woman meets a new lover...they become almost like teenagers in their emotions and actions.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh, and I forgot in my litany, for god's sake, don't put yourself face forward into someone's personal space or touch them on the arm while talking.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

davecarter said:


> But that's what happens to 'Waywards' and their 'Others': it's _exactly _like what happens when a single man or woman meets a new lover...they become almost like teenagers in their emotions and actions.


Dave, when it's two adults who are not having affairs, I think they go to a coffee shop or restaurant. A walk through town or in the park. Get ice cream. See a movie. Whatever. It's the sneaking around (secret calls, deleted texts, and so on) that, on top of everything else, is undignified and unseemly. Not to mention disgusting.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Aerith said:


> I am sure if we could look at those survived 1/3 marriages in more details - it would turned out than it's mostly cheating husbands and forgiving wives.
> 
> It's very difficult for men to overcome the physical part. For women it's more difficult to overcome the emotional part.
> 
> So, to sum up - men have affairs mainly for sex and women mainly for love :smthumbup:



I totally agree, I think most men really get hung up on the OM and comparing themselves in one way or another. Then the idea of their wife being with another man what did they do together was he "better" in bed, better endowed, did she perform certain acts...

With an EA (I caught H in one and I think it would have gone PA soon). The POSOW was pushing in that direction. It was clear from the VAR that she was pushing to spend time together. She freaked when he told her we were doing better, told him I was manipulating him so I wouldn't end up single. Truth is she wanted to leapfrog into the life i worked hard with him to build. Even though he would be losing a lot of that if we divorce. That crap plays in my head. Ugh, it took my H a while to snap out of the fog of "it wasn't like that" to "yeah she acknowledged and was fully aware he was married and that I didn't know they were talking". 

I really don't deal well with lying or betrayal. I've got loads of "people I know" and only a few people I truly trust...If you earn my trust, I'm as loyal as they come. But burn me and I will cut you off...Now this, I'm trying to decide if my H is truly trustworthy. We have a long history of him being a great husband but damn I'm struggling to forgive what I can't forget. I have a time frame in my head and as long as we are making progress I will continue. But at times that "deadline" seems too short possibly (I thought a year)


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> I totally agree, I think most men really get hung up on the OM and comparing themselves in one way or another. Then the idea of their wife being with another man what did they do together was he "better" in bed, better endowed, did she perform certain acts...


You nailed it...for me.
It embarrasses me now to admit I was exactly hung up on all of this...


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Aerith said:


> I am sure if we could look at those survived 1/3 marriages in more details - it would turned out than it's mostly cheating husbands and forgiving wives.
> 
> It's very difficult for men to overcome the physical part. For women it's more difficult to overcome the emotional part.
> 
> So, to sum up - men have affairs mainly for sex and women mainly for love :smthumbup:


Or for attention or validation. Or just because it feels good.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"The idea of making it illegal is a little Puritan"

I couldn't agree more. It should not be illegal at all.

But I also don't think it should be illegal at all for a BS to beat the living h**l out of a POS AP.

After all,they have just inflicted as much pain and damage on another person as if they had physically punched them in the face.

Now if somebody does punch me in the face, I can beat the living s**t out of them for daring to insult, disrespect, and injure me in such a way.

The emotional pain of interfering in another person's M is far beyond that of being physically attacked, and the life consequences are often far worse in most cases.

So why shouldn't a person be able to exact the price from a POS the same as if they had physically attacked them?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> But I also don't think it should be illegal at all for a BS to beat the living h**l out of a POS AP.


It should be against the law, but justice should look the other way.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

davecarter said:


> To be honest though Allen, you do come across as being rather too holier-than-thou, naive and having such a high moral compass....that it too, is a little 'creepy'. :scratchhead:


Having a moral compass on an infidelity support forum... God Forbid!

Ya, go figure.. I guess I should take my conscience elsewhere....

Facebook or Second Life maybe..


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> It should be against the law, but justice should look the other way.


What the heck does that mean???


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Aerith said:


> It's very difficult for men to overcome the physical part. For women it's more difficult to overcome the emotional part.
> 
> So, to sum up - men have affairs mainly for sex and women mainly for love :smthumbup:


I think so too, loosely speaking. Except that I would rephrase it thusly:

men have affairs mainly for ego (a).

and women mainly from infatuation (b).

(a) Because otherwise, men would stick to prostitutes/easy one-off lays.

I know that when I wanted more than one, it was about feeling clever and desirable sexually - ego. I gave better sex than I got, that was the 'thrill' for me, seeing them enjoying themselves, and bathing in the ego boost. So not about sex.

(b) And if it were 'love' the woman would know the man well before becoming attached i.e. not just four days/months or something. 

What she sees in the 'new love' is never the real person, in my experience of being the 'new love' for a few separated women. They have a weird stalker-like thing going on, and they're very hungry. Some of the rubbish they imagine you are creeped me out. Way too clingy for someone I'd just met. Yes, infatuation.

Well I could be wrong. Maybe I'm abnormal.  There's always the possibility. 

Please contradict me!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> What the heck does that mean???


Something, actually. I think. Law is the law. The black letter. The written rules of society. Society needs law. Justice is the administration of what is fair and equitable. An equitable society needs justice. Just desserts and all that. Law is binary and unyielding, indifferent. Justice measured and compassionate, sometimes vengeful. It is about what is right, taking account of but not yielding to law. There is a difference, I think.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

davecarter said:


> You nailed it...for me.
> It embarrasses me now to admit I was exactly hung up on all of this...


If you are simply a "tourist" viewing this from a distance. It's interesting to see how differently men and women view things.

When you are in it. It's just plain painful. I couldn't imagine being physically with another man and having to tell my H the details. Ugh, that would be dreadful. No way to make that OK, say it was awful he's not going to buy it. Say it was good and he is going to have that mess with his head.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

If it was legal or even looked the other way...alot of law makes would be walking around with black eyes.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"It should be against the law, but justice should look the other way."

I disagree Harken.

Nothing breeds contempt for the rule of law more than having codes on the books that are then simply ignored, or worse yet selectively enforced.

If an action is deemed to be just and correct, as I feel this act would be, then it should not be illegal at all.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

kristin2349 said:


> If you are simply a "tourist" viewing this from a distance. It's interesting to see how differently men and women view things.
> 
> When you are in it. It's just plain painful. I couldn't imagine being physically with another man and having to tell my H the details. Ugh, that would be dreadful. No way to make that OK, say it was awful he's not going to buy it. Say it was good and he is going to have that mess with his head.


But when you marry a serial cheater then the wayward has options with "ya some were awful and some were good"


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Something, actually. I think. Law is the law. The black letter. The written rules of society. Society needs law. Justice is the administration of what is fair and equitable. An equitable society needs justice. Just desserts and all that. Law is binary and unyielding, indifferent. Justice measured and compassionate, sometimes vengeful. It is about what is right, taking account of but not yielding to law. There is a difference, I think.


I think you are oversimplifying.

I am not suggesting the execution of law in any country is perfect... that would be silly.

But the law ought to have something to do with justice. That is the purpose of the design...

To what degree the practice of law meets justice varies dramatically from case to case and court to court...

So yes, I get that there is a difference, or misapplication...

But I will point out the law is not as black and white as you paint it out to be.. the law is in many cases subject to a great deal of interpretation.... which is why they have judges to sort that out...

The judge's interpretation, by and large, ought to bridge the gap. It rarely does.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Once saw a situation like this with a couple and OM that were all in an extended group of friends I was also part of.
> 
> The H was basically a good guy, a little insensitive to his W at times, but definitely not an a**hole.
> 
> ...


But the WW still had that disposition to wander, to take the bait. Where has that need gone?


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> I think so too, loosely speaking. Except that I would rephrase it thusly:
> 
> men have affairs mainly for ego (a).
> 
> ...


Excellent. I agree completely. 

That's why in many instances WS actually affaired down. It was hard for STBXH to feel "better" than me because I am smarter, more successful, and possess many other (positive) traits compared to him. Some have also told me that I am physically more attractive which bugged him a lot. When I read their emails (can't even spell, cheesy, etc.), saw pictures of the women he cheated with, I was floored. Strangely, I was disappointed that he broke my heart for those kind of women. But I guess they could stroke his ego better than I ever could.

That's also why when women cheat, they almost always say "he gives me attention." That attention appears to be so important, important enough to ruin their life and their family. They seem to forget that their husband was just like that when they were just dating. If they did end up with their AP, he would most probably be just like their husband now. Women like this should stay single and date because they need that constant high from the courting phase of a relationship. 

As for women who think they are in love with strangers they just meet for a couple of weeks, I also think it's weird. Just look at the "twin flame" thread. First of all, whoever came up with this term should see a shrink immediately. Secondly, how can you fall in love with someone you barely know? 

Finally, I don't understand about people who have affairs with their ex boyfriends/girlfriends. Isn't there a reason why it didn't work the first time?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "It should be against the law, but justice should look the other way."
> 
> I disagree Harken.
> 
> ...


The courts need to make it against the law to bring about a culture change.

Right now the law doens't care, so no one else does either...

How many times do you hear "there's no law against what we are doing..."

The law brings about cultural changes... I am not suggesting infidelity would stop if it was illegal. People still cheat in North Carolina.

But at least it gives people some recourse and a message is sent from the powers that be...

It starts there.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> "It should be against the law, but justice should look the other way."
> 
> I disagree Harken.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I don't think infidelity should be a crime. I also do not think that someone who thinks they have been betrayed should have carte blanche to set out to pummel someone with a get out of jail free card in their back pocket. And I think that justice is important to respect for the law. Without it, we get absurd and injust results. We get lots of those, justice ameliorates. Justice is discretion. Like it or not, it is part of our system and history of jurisprudence. Sorry to get all legal theory here. Wasn't my intent.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> I think so too, loosely speaking. Except that I would rephrase it thusly:
> 
> men have affairs mainly for ego (a).
> 
> ...



I think ego is involved for both men and women.

For men the ego boosts might be not having to "pay for it" and racking up numbers and getting laid. For others it's about perusing a hotter, younger trophy, for you it's "giving better than you got". But that could be skill or no offense to you it could be acting.

I don't know who you are dating and hooking up with but that needy thing is repellant behavior to me.

I'm female so male attention (especially if he's good looking and a cool guy) can be very flattering. I always keep my boundaries firmly in place. I'm married so I take that for what it is flattery. Like being complimented on a piece of jewelry or an outfit. It doesn't have anything to do with you other than a superficial level. They aren't seeing you sick or in a crappy mood. 

Anyone who thinks their "new love" that is an affair and rooted in lies in betrayal is some special thing that will defy the odds is an emotional teenager. It's just deluded thinking.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Aerith said:


> I am sure if we could look at those survived 1/3 marriages in more details - it would turned out than it's mostly cheating husbands and forgiving wives.
> 
> It's very difficult for men to overcome the physical part. For women it's more difficult to overcome the emotional part.
> 
> So, to sum up - men have affairs mainly for sex and women mainly for love :smthumbup:


Makes sense - yet my WS won't divulge a thing. I had to work out the motivations after a lot of reading on TAM and elsewhere, but all denied. I even sent her that long letter published on TAM which describes what the BS is going through and how the WS might assist in recovery. It must have been like light reading, I don't think she even finished it. Then when I sent her info describing why spouses, in this case females, cheat she sent me an e-mail saying - "Will you stop trying to box me up, I am nothing like this. You weren't there, it was not like that at all". Charming.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> The courts need to make it against the law to bring about a culture change.
> 
> Right now the law doens't care, so no one else does either...
> 
> ...


Since this has become a law and society discussion, I will take a slightly different view. In our country anyway, the law and courts do not lead cultural changes, they follow them. The civil rights movement for instance, Loving, Brown. Abortion. Gay marriage. Sometimes for the better and for improvement, sometimes maybe not, depending on your view. But neither the courts nor legislatures lead. They follow with codification or stamp of imprimatur. Just an observation, not a judgment. Don't give lawyers and law undeserved credit.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

the guy said:


> But when you marry a serial cheater then the wayward has options with "ya some were awful and some were good"


LOL

please take in consideration the thread was originally directed in situations were a emotional affair were engaged.


I know that there are many cases were women don't cheat under the spell of a emotionak affair:

- serial cheaters
- drunken ons
- sociopaths women or women with other mental disorder.
- Exit affairs.

so obviously there are different responses in each case.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Horizon,

I understand your point about her wandering in the first place.

They are still married.

I'm not privy to all the details of their M, but I believe that dealing with why this happened was indeed a big part of them fixing the M and moving forward.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh, and I still think it is a really bad idea to make infidelity illegal. Slippery slope between here and the Taliban.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Oh, and I still think it is a really bad idea to make infidelity illegal. Slippery slope between here and the Taliban.


well maybe not ilegal, but at least put financial repercussions if a divorce is caused for such infidelity, I mean, how is fair losing half of what you had, losing your house, adquiring debt because someone else enjoyed the thrill of steping out of the marriage?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Since this has become a law and society discussion, I will take a slightly different view. In our country anyway, the law and courts do not lead cultural changes, they follow them. The civil rights movement for instance, Loving, Brown. Abortion. Gay marriage. Sometimes for the better and for improvement, sometimes maybe not, depending on your view. But neither the courts nor legislatures lead. They follow with codification or stamp of imprimatur. Just an observation, not a judgment. Don't give lawyers and law undeserved credit."

Harken,

I agree 100%.

Its a sociological truth in all communities/societies.

Taboos and mores actually have a much stronger impact on our behavior.

If the only thing declaring an action to be wrong is law, but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of the people deem the act differently, then there will be little or no respect for that law AND the act will continue to be done if the perpetrator feels they can avoid legal consequences.

I have yet to meet a racist who says the reason they stopped was because it became illegal to act in certain ways.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> But neither the courts nor legislatures lead. They follow with codification or stamp of imprimatur. Just an observation, not a judgment. Don't give lawyers and law undeserved credit.


They take action. They DO something.

Let's give them credit when they do something.. the law does change over time... for better or worse...

I think a lot of people do think third party interlopers ought to be dealt with as criminals. It's a shame more states in the USA don't do that.

I even read a stat the other day saying 61% of people think it ought to be a crime.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

manticore said:


> well maybe not ilegal, but at least put financial repercussions if a divorce is caused for such infidelity, I mean, how is fair losing half of what you had, losing your house, adquiring debt because someone else enjoyed the thrill of steping out of the marriage?


In most cases, it is probably not fair. I don't have a clean answer. If you think I have not been through the worksheets with a lawyer, the statutory guidelines, the can I keep the house or not calculus, where will the kids call home, the indescribable pain of seeing the dream you saw for your kids melt into a nightmare . . . well, I have. I think it is too messy and unworkable to maintain anything other than a no fault regime. Marriages fail. We all wish it were otherwise. The best we can do as individuals and parents is do our best.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> I think ego is involved for both men and women.
> 
> For men the ego boosts might be not having to "pay for it" and racking up numbers and getting laid. For others it's about perusing a hotter, younger trophy, for you it's "giving better than you got". But that could be skill or no offense to you it could be acting.
> 
> ...


Yes, it does remind me of teenaged behaviour, that's exactly how they act. What with the texting me and trying to stalk me on facebook and coming into my place of work, wanting to know what I am doing at all hours...

As for the acting, well, thanks for the dig  but women aren't that hard to read. You can tell when they are indirectly asking questions about your income, ambitions... you can always tell what's going through their minds, it's just that most guys don't listen to their gut feelings and really pay attention to the other person. They're too busy acting themselves and planning the next line. 'Saddens' me, because if they just dropped all the testing and checklists and 'what would my friends think' etc etc. then they would see the real person... and they'd run (kidding )
Second, skill is not the right word, because every woman is different, and you can't take your learnin's from one to the next like you can when fixing leaky taps... something about my subconscious made me say that ha ha... you just have to pay close attention. Again, with the pay attention thing 

Actually, you are right, I'm just messing. They are acting most of the time, it's just that I can see it, and I don't encourage it.

'Racking up numbers' - never been a hobby of mine, a real man doesn't care about quantity, just quality of experiences. Do such men exist? If they do, then they use numbers as a substitute for their inability to form lasting relationships - ego, but with a difference, they have an ego that will never be content.

Who am I to judge. I take it back. Maybe they're happier that way, or once bitten twice shy about meaningful relationships...

If you disagree, then tell me why, I might learn something... I'll be paying attention, you see


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I think it is too messy and unworkable to maintain anything other than a no fault regime. Marriages fail. We all wish it were otherwise. The best we can do as individuals and parents is do our best.


Allow me to be the first one to say "that's not good enough."

Go back and try again...


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Anyone who thinks their "new love" that is an affair and rooted in lies and betrayal is some special thing that will defy the odds is an emotional teenager. It's just deluded thinking.


Incredibly delusional... Especially how they simply ignore how what they are doing is wrong. How each other's spouses and children will feel if they found out. How they never contemplate what a REAL future and relationship would be like with this person. As if this teenage infatuation would last forever...

I asked my ex these things and she told me she didn't think of any of that because she thought she would never get caught. More delusional thinking. Towards the end, before I busted her, she had gotten downright shameless and sloppy about her "indiscretions". She had more red flags flying than a group of flagmen on an aircraft carrier during a mass takeoff.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

the guy said:


> But when you marry a serial cheater then the wayward has options with "ya some were awful and some were good"


That would at least be an honest assessment. It's sadly probably the most "truth" you'll get from a serial cheater. Or even someone who sleeps around a lot and is single. It's a mixed bag I'm sure, I think for women it might be a letdown after the attention and the effect of the chase on the OM part dies down when he finally gets what he's after.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Incredibly delusion... Especially how they simply ignore how what they are doing is wrong. How each other's spouses and children will feel if they found out. How they never contemplate what a REAL future and relationship would be like with this person. As if this teenage infatuation would last forever...
> 
> I asked my ex these things and she told me she didn't think of any of that because she thought she would never get caught. More delusional thinking. Towards the end, before I busted her, she had gotten downright shameless and sloppy about her "indiscretions". She had more red flags flying than a group of flagmen on an aircraft carrier during mass takeoff.



Amazing how an otherwise "smart" adult could be such a fool. Much less drag everyone else into their idiotic behavior. The need some electro shock therapy or something to snap them back to sanity.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Unless OM backs down?

Sorry, just got home from work, too tired to go thru the entire thread. Does this OM character hold the wife at gunpoint? Who is OM to back down? Whose vows were those, back when many a tear shed in joy?

What should be the wife's stance while OM is "backing down"? Wait patiently to "sort things out"? Decide if she "needs some space"?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Allow me to be the first one to say "that's not good enough."
> 
> Go back and try again...


Look, man. Seems like your wife broke her marriage vows. Mine did too. You can read about here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray.html#post875301. My life and the lives of our children, hers as well, have been an abject mess since. I did not propose to have a solution to or fitting punishment for infidelity however it make come, which I am sure comes in many shapes and sizes. All I said was that making a law against was, in my view, a really bad idea. If you disagree, fine. Except that I hope that in this country we don't ever get to a point where there is any serious movement to make marital infidelity illegal. Yeah, I had homicidal thoughts about my wife's AP. Even shared some of those with him. People make their own hell. I will let him make his.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

verpin zal,

I believe OP's point is that nothing can be done to address an A as long as the third person, POSOM, is still in the picture.

Unless he can be driven off, there is very little chance to deal with any marital issues with a WW who is emotionally attached to the POS.

Hammering the OM in any way possible is necessary to stop the A ASAP. He has to decide that continuing to interfere in the BH's M is not worth the price he will pay.

Until this happens, the A will escalate and get worse.

I agree if your point is that a BH cannot EXCLUSIVELY work on getting the POS out of the picture.

He must show consequences to his WW to break the connection from her end as well.

But a BH will be fighting a difficult and often losing battle if he is trying to deal with his WW while POS can and is still intruding himself into the M.

That scumbag MUST be sent running for the hills to break the connection.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> verpin zal,
> 
> I believe OP's point is that nothing can be done to address an A as long as the third person, POSOM, is still in the picture.
> 
> ...


I don't like it. OM is not the problem. A do*che, to be sure. But not the problem in the marriage. As I sat in my first meeting with a divorce lawyer giving some background on the situation I told him I was suggesting she might take this time to be a SAHM for a few years (affair happened at work), he said look, if wasn't the guy at work, it would be the tennis pro at the club. And he was right. Not that my wife would have an affair with the tennis pro, but that the problem in my marriage was not the OM.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

When I had d-day in Nov. 2011, I exposed it, but it had already gone PA. They took it underground. It was not the XOM who pursued, but my wife. Never take thw WS out of the equation.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I don't like it. OM is not the problem. A do*che, to be sure. But not the problem in the marriage. As I sat in my first meeting with a divorce lawyer giving some background on the situation I told him I was suggesting she might take this time to be a SAHM for a few years (affair happened at work), he said look, if wasn't the guy at work, it would be the tennis pro at the club. And he was right. Not that my wife would have an affair with the tennis pro, but that the problem in my marriage was not the OM.


sorry but disagree, not is always about a bad marriage or a marriage lacking of something, sometimes is really about a POSOM loving to wreck happy marriages for the ego bost or just for the sex.

Don't take me wrong, I am not puttig all the blame in the POSOM, in fact most the blame is for the person who did know how to mantein their boundaries to not engage a emotional affair.

maybe your marriage had problems, but there are cases like:

The Flood, DevastatedDad, soffie in love shack.

where they had a good marriage, sex many times a week, good communication and emotional needs fullfiled by both parts, and still a third party found his way inside the marriage, sure in all this cases begin in the same way, a person who they knew for years, Little by Little get closer claiming just frienship, confessing each other things about their spouses and bang, the emotional affair began and after some months the physical one


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Harken,

I agree that any M in this situation has underlying problems that must be dealt with if it is to be repaired and continued into the future.

However, my point is that it will be d**n near impossible to do this if POS still has the freedom to interfere in the M in any way.

For every step forward that the BH may make with his WW, there will be a step back if he continues to maintain an emotional connection and communication with the WW.

Its like treatment in an ER.

A lot of work may be necessary to return the patient to health, but you have to prioritize what to deal with first.

Setting a bone while the patient is hemorrhaging makes saving the patient impossible.

I believe that trying to fix the M while a POS is still free and willing to interfere is equally impossible. 

One of my friends nearly had his M ended 5 years ago by a workplace EA.

They were unable to work on anything, and the M almost completely collapsed because the POS would not back off.

Once my friend went to their immediate superior in the company, the POS turned into a ghost in the wink of an eye.

Only then were they able to work on fixing their issues.

They have since R'd and are still married.

If he had done nothing, it probably would have eventually gone PA and I doubt he would have stayed to fix the M.


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I don't like it. OM is not the problem. A do*che, to be sure. But not the problem in the marriage. As I sat in my first meeting with a divorce lawyer giving some background on the situation I told him I was suggesting she might take this time to be a SAHM for a few years (affair happened at work), he said look, if wasn't the guy at work, it would be the tennis pro at the club. And he was right. Not that my wife would have an affair with the tennis pro, but that the problem in my marriage was not the OM.


Your lawyer would have made a great counsellor. 

I can see where the anger for OM coming from...any person willingly sleep someone else's spouse has questionable characters for sure. But it is still the WW that made the vow to you. If your WW is not the one making the decision to stop (before or after she gets caught), you should have directed that anger to WW. She is the one married to you, she is the one making vows to you, she is the one breaking that vows, breaking your heart, turning your world inside out, she should have decided immediately upon seeing the devastating impact her actions inflicted on you, to cut the ********* out of her life. If she doesn't care enough to stop, or you have to beat the crap out of OM or scare him so your WW stops the affair, what does it say about her? She sees how devastated you are, but she can't stop unless the OM goes away???

I understand the need to protect your family by shooing the OM away, but he is really not that special. Your WW wanted to cheat, if it wasn't him...it would have been someone else. 

If she cuts contact but OM continues to harass her, THEN it's your turn to go all caveman.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

manticore said:


> sorry but disagree, not is always about a bad marriage or a marriage lacking of something, sometimes is really about a POSOM loving to wreck happy marriages for the ego bost or just for the sex.
> 
> Don't take me wrong, I am not puttig all the blame in the POSOM, in fact most the blame is for the person who did know how to mantein their boundaries to not engage a emotional affair.
> 
> ...


There is no good marriage or marriage without problems in which an affair occurs. There is no marriage without problems. Problems are part of life. Without problems we could eat lotus all day and then life would be worth . . . well, you know the story. As for marriage and problems, if you want to read about mine (instead of conjecture), which I thought was really, really difficult in a lot of ways, but my marriage which I cherished, it's linked in this thread above.

I agree that blowing the affair up, separating the WS from AP, and exposing all of this to the disinfectant of daylight is fantastic medicine. I just don't go along with the make it illegal, open hunting on POSOM, and other sentiments that seem to me to take away from what I see as the problem. Your wife had an affair. Not because of someone outside of your marriage. Maybe your marriage will not or should not continue. But it is not because of AP. AP could be anyone. Anyone could be AP.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Dyokemm 

that is pretty much the point here, the POS is a POS, and if he have the opportunity to bang, he will do it, otherwise he had never get close to a married woman in first place.

also, unfortunatly but true, in the moment he acchived the emotional affair on the married woman the odds are in his favor, the chemicals in the brain as dopamine are already working in favor of POSOM so if he is left alone he will take the opportunity to have his free sex without resposablilities as long as it don't affect his life, after all he is a POS


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"If she cuts contact but OM continues to harass her, THEN it's your turn to go all caveman."

I think the problem I have seen with friends and family who have been in this situation is that a WW who is already emotionally attached to the A will REALLY struggle with going NC with the POS IF he continues to have the freedom to interfere with impunity.

She may be torn, and even rationally understand that the POS has to go, if she wants to fix the M. A part of her may even really and truly want to fix things. 

But that other part of her, the part that is emotionally invested in the A, will be weak and susceptible to POS continuing to reach out. 

He has to be removed totally and forever.

The best way to accomplish this is to present him with consequences so bad that it will not be worth it to continue to pursue the A.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> "If she cuts contact but OM continues to harass her, THEN it's your turn to go all caveman."
> 
> I think the problem I have seen with friends and family who have been in this situation is that a WW who is already emotionally attached to the A will REALLY struggle with going NC with the POS IF he continues to have the freedom to interfere with impunity.
> 
> ...


The spouse in the affair has to make the break. Because he or she and is resolute and clear and appropriately contrite and appreciative. That's all. Anything else is rug sweeping. Just taking the candy away makes someone want the candy more.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"The spouse in the affair has to make the break. Because he or she and is resolute and clear and appropriately contrite and appreciative. That's all. Anything else is rug sweeping."

To ultimately fix the M, I agree with you completely. 

The WW MUST come to realize she is wrong and return to the M of her own free will.

My point is that a WW is much less likely to come to this realization if she is still being pulled at by the POS.

If POS is still free to communicate and engage with the WW, she is much less likely to see what she has done and take the steps necessary to fix her M.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> The spouse in the affair has to make the break. Because he or she and is resolute and clear and appropriately contrite and appreciative. That's all. Anything else is rug sweeping. Just taking the candy away makes someone want the candy more.


I think generally that is true, but there are exceptions. OMW punched my STBXW in the face and broke her occipital lobe. STBXW has been scared to talk to OM ever since. 

Also OM lost all interest in the affair when OMW found out. Gotta love an OMW raised in ghetto Baltimore!


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I view these situations as similar to a drug addiction.

Ultimately, the addict has to decide to fix the problem for themselves. No one else can make the decision or do it for them.

If they do not want to heal, they can always go find any dealer available to get their fix.

However, if you had a loved one struggling with this problem, and knew they were in constant communication with a dealer, you would do what was necessary to remove this person from the situation in any way possible.

You would not sit back and say, "Well if they're gonna use they'll find any dealer they can, so no use getting rid of this one right here."

Instinctually, you would realize that they are battling personal demons at that point, and the constant temptation being offered to them by this scumbag will manipulate them and cloud their ability to make rational decisions at that time.

I think a POSOM would need to be removed in the same way if he was constantly communicating with an emotionally attached WW.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> "If she cuts contact but OM continues to harass her, THEN it's your turn to go all caveman."
> 
> I think the problem I have seen with friends and family who have been in this situation is *that a WW who is already emotionally attached *to the A will REALLY struggle with going NC with the POS IF he continues to have the freedom to interfere with impunity.
> 
> ...


either emotionally attached or just likes to play passive aggressive games. I've seen this with my mother as well as with my exH. Both he and she complained that they just couldn't be rude and continued contact with toxic people.

In my mother's situation, it was an ex of mine who couldn't let go. So he started calling my mother; she would then tell me what they talked about. Which of course emboldened him to harass me even more. She also continued a relationship with my brother's ex wife (no children involved whatsoever). 

In both case, she acted as if things just happened to her.

And my ex husband was the same. Friends, acquaintances who were dismissive or rude to me, he didn't notice. And then if I called him on his behaviour, acknowledgement or generosity towards said person, his answer was the same, "I just couldn't be rude.......(even to a person who is so obviously rude to my wife.)

I think EAs are wonderful vehicle for the Passive Aggressive.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> McGraw said outright on his TV show that most emotional affairs do become physical affairs.
> 
> Not all do of course, but I think you are suggesting the same thing McGraw does... that most will unless some big change happens.
> 
> ...


I'll try an answer:-

If it is what you think is right, then, to you, it is right. Even if, were your mind working, you'd know it was wrong.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Dyokemm said:


> Unless he can be driven off, there is very little chance to deal with any marital issues with a WW who is emotionally attached to the POS..


And that’s where I have a caveat... You can’t ‘drive off’ a OM and *fix the problem*. All you’ve done is bought some time and space. You still have a wayward thinking spouse and all that implies. They will do what they want. You didn’t ‘make them’ stop wanting that relationship, you just denied them from being able to have it.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

MattMatt said:


> I'll try an answer:-
> 
> If it is what you think is right, then, to you, it is right. Even if, were your mind working, you'd know it was wrong.


And add to that.... My WW had this perception: "If I'm gonna do the time, I should do the crime." So, she took it beyond an EA if that's what it took to maintain the relationship with them. An affair is an affair in her head. Once across that line, there were no stop signs.


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

radrobe said:


> I think generally that is true, but there are exceptions. OMW punched my STBXW in the face and broke her occipital lobe. STBXW has been scared to talk to OM ever since.
> 
> Also *OM lost all interest in the affair when OMW found out.* Gotta love an OMW raised in ghetto Baltimore!


This is my point. He lost all interest in the affair when his wife found out. If a WS deluded themselves into thinking "what my spouse doesn't know won't hurt them," a DDay is the point when reality comes crashing down on them. Most cheating men that I have heard of (and one I know personally) do this. They immediately drop the AP like a hot potato. But a WW is excused for their inability to do this because...? Because a woman is more emotionally invested in their affair? What I can infer is, their feelings for their AP (or the high they feel from their affair) takes precedent over their feelings about the devastation of their affair on their own husband.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

Stronger-now said:


> I can infer is, their feelings for their AP (or the high they feel from their affair) takes precedent over their feelings about the devastation of their affair on their own husband.


I think this is going under the assumption that WW is thinking rationally. Not likely. Mine sure wasn't. 

The crack analogy works well. A crackhead may want to quit with all their heart, but when that craving comes around or they see a crack dealer walk by, they have almost temporary insanity and have to have it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Racer said:


> And add to that.... My WW had this perception: "If I'm gonna do the time, I should do the crime." So, she took it beyond an EA if that's what it took to maintain the relationship with them. An affair is an affair in her head. Once across that line, there were no stop signs.


My God! That was my broken thinking that lead up to my stupid RA!

Luckily I stopped just before unprotected PIV sex occurred.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

And there's this, of course, let's have it:

"Women have affairs because they "feel" some shyt on an emotional level.."

So what? So it's ok for them to go and bang anyone they get the hots for? If this is not a form of justification, then what is it?

This totally is like a wayward coming here and asking us advice while saying "i did this and i did that.. he/she was not there for me.. i needed blah and bleh.. these are no excuses, i know.."

Well if they are no excuses, then don't utter them. My point is that simple, actually.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I don't like it. OM is not the problem. A do*che, to be sure. But not the problem in the marriage. As I sat in my first meeting with a divorce lawyer giving some background on the situation I told him I was suggesting she might take this time to be a SAHM for a few years (affair happened at work), he said look, if wasn't the guy at work, it would be the tennis pro at the club. And he was right. Not that my wife would have an affair with the tennis pro, but that the problem in my marriage was not the OM.


I agree when going after the POS but you are still stuck with a spouse that was wide open to an affair. So going after the other person might shut that down. But if it was just them, you are saying you alone were responsible and without whatever special thing you made my spouse violate our marriage for. All would be and will be fine if you disappear. 

Just my opinion, I'm still entitled to it. Call me wrong but there is no "alienation of affection" in my state and I wouldn't bother. Giving the other person all that time and energy is just feeding them the drama they must really crave to have gotten involved to begin with.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I just don't go along with the make it illegal, open hunting on POSOM, and other sentiments that seem to me to take away from what I see as the problem. Your wife had an affair.


Both the OP and the wayward are having the affair.

Sorry. It takes two for that to happen.

They are both engaged in infidelity (deception, disrespect, and exploitation), and they are both cheating.

One is cheating their spouse out of a healthy relationship, and an opportunity to make informed choices, and the other is cheating the betrayed spouse again out of a healthy relationship, and an opportunity to make informed choices.

_They are both dishonest and destructive, they are both cheating.
_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Stronger-now said:


> But it is still the WW that made the vow to you. .. She is the one married to you, she is the one making vows to you, she is the one breaking that vows, breaking your heart, turning your world inside out


This is crap.

Sorry, but the absence of having made a vow does not give one the right to disrespect, deceive, or exploit a marriage on the rocks.

_The absence of a vow does not legitimize degenerate behavior.
_

There are a million behaviors I did not yet make a vow to not do. Does that make them OK?

Of course not. So please stop with the vow nonsense.

_Vows aren't just to be respected by the couple, they are to be respected by everyone.
_

If someone I know is trying to diet, or get in shape, or do anything that requires a focused commitment and some restraint I don't interfere with that. That's offensive beyond belief. Supporting someone through that commitment is called adulthood.

If someone makes a commitment to diet, I don't start waving cupcakes under their nose. If someone makes a commitment to diet I respect that.

I don't just wave it off and say "I am not dieting, so I am gonna wave temptation in your face..."

Sorry, but that's just obnoxious beyond belief.

If someone is taking an exam, and i slip them the answers.. who is cheating? Both of us are. And it's to the exam taker's detriment.

The absence of a vow does not give one the right to interfere with commitments.


Heck, what about people living common law? No formal vow made, does that make violating that union ok?

I respect everyone's vows (formal or informal), not just my own.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> either emotionally attached or just likes to play passive aggressive games. I've seen this with my mother as well as with my exH. Both he and she complained that they just couldn't be rude and continued contact with toxic people.
> 
> In my mother's situation, it was an ex of mine who couldn't let go. So he started calling my mother; she would then tell me what they talked about. Which of course emboldened him to harass me even more. She also continued a relationship with my brother's ex wife (no children involved whatsoever).
> 
> ...



Amen it really is Passive Aggressive, I hadn't quite looked at it that way. I'm very forthright and if called for just aggressive, lol. So I hadn't thought about it in that light oddly enough.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> So going after the other person might shut that down. But if it was just them, you are saying you alone were responsible and without whatever special thing you made my spouse violate our marriage for. All would be and will be fine if you disappear.


No. That is not what is inferred. What this means is we recognize the OP as part of the problem and deal with that part. 

No one suggested removing OM makes a marriage wonderful again.

It's a step in the right direction.


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## Line In The Sand (Nov 15, 2013)

Dyokemm;6082090."
I think the problem I have seen with friends and family who have been in this situation is that a WW who is already emotionally attached to the A will REALLY struggle with going NC with the POS IF he continues to have the freedom to interfere with impunity.
She may be torn said:


> I think this is exactly what has happened in my situation. A question has anyone exposed this close to xmas (if other party has kids) or is that not right ?


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

verpin zal said:


> And there's this, of course, let's have it:
> 
> "Women have affairs because they "feel" some shyt on an emotional level.."
> 
> So what? So it's ok for them to go and bang anyone they get the hots for? If this is not a form of justification, then what is it?


this has been my point all the time, woman are more prone to cheat first emotional and later physical, but that does not mean that the emotional cheating was because her marriage was bad or they were in a crappy marraige, they just allowed (intentionally or unintentionally) to someone else become priority to them, this is the way most women cheat, in the other hand the way more men cheat is just to bang a nice *ss, they don't even have to know the woman.

example with myself, I have never cheated before and I have had plenty of opportunities, but if Charlize Theron (my fantazy woman) appears and try to take my pants off, I want to think I will find the strength to tell her no I am in a realtionship, but I honestly will not know until the day it happens (lol, yeah sure).


we are just differentiating how it happens between genders.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> I view these situations as similar to a drug addiction.
> 
> Ultimately, the addict has to decide to fix the problem for themselves. No one else can make the decision or do it for them.
> 
> ...



Eventually yeah you detach from the drug addict who can't keep away from the dealer or the drugs. You get sick of paying for rehab and you make peace with you have probably lost them to this forever. After a sibling did her Rehab tour of the US and some island in the Caribbean spending over a million dollars...we all gave up. She is still at it sadly, I don't speak to her. She was too high to make it to my Fathers funeral but showed up to see if she got anything in the will, she did...$1

Sometimes people come to their senses when the "temptation" has been removed. But to me the risk of relapse is always present, so you have to make a judgement call.


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## Line In The Sand (Nov 15, 2013)

My question is why does the ww (hope I got that right, wandering wife) especially if the om is married still go along with the whole affair , do they think that the om will leave his wife or or they caught up in the whole thing they don't care & just love the feeling ?


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> This is crap.
> 
> Sorry, but the absence of having made a vow does not give one the right to disrespect, deceive, or exploit a marriage on the rocks.
> 
> ...


I do not disagree with you. Anyone having sexual relationship with a married person is scum of the earth, d*ouchebag, etc. You seem to have a lot of anger toward AP, and it is very understandable. I looked up your posts and then I found this:

*if you want to reconcile with your spouse, you need to hold OP accountable to a significant degree... probably more accountable than your spouse.

This may not be factually accurate, but that's the best to way to get to point B in repairing the mess

And to be honest, the AP (if they are single) has no mess to clean up...
*

If it helps you to feel better now, so be it. I must disagree, however, I don't think it is the best way to repair the mess. It is denial. Infidelity is a choice. Your wife made her choice, and she is responsible for it. If the AP in your case is married, he is also responsible for the choice he made. If the AP in your case is single, well...he IS single. He is a player, has questionable morals, selfish, etc. But, he is not supposed to be held more accountable of your wife's fidelity. This way of thinking is what we call blame-shifting. You shift most of the blame toward AP. I am not saying they are not to blame, but most of the blame should be on your wife.

There are so many single or married men out there who just do not care about your marriage. It is just a sad fact of life. They are selfish, they take what they want, they just don't care. And as long as they do not commit a crime, there is not much you can do about it. You can punch one, but you cannot punch hundred thousands of them out there. It is just one of those things that you have to live with. 

If you stop focusing so much on AP, and look deep into the characters of your wife, the one that caused you this anguish when you expected (and rightfully so) her to have your back, you will have a better chance at reconciling and be happy again. 

You wish infidelity would be prosecutable, but it is not. It is, again, one of those things you have to live with. Otherwise, you will continue to be angry at something you cannot do anything about.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> No. That is not what is inferred. What this means is we recognize the OP as part of the problem and deal with that part.
> 
> No one suggested removing OM makes a marriage wonderful again.
> 
> It's a step in the right direction.


Yes I get it! I understand your position on this. In case you don't feel heard you are making your position clear.

I don't absolve to POS OM or OW. I don't have as hard a line as you so I'm certain in your book I'm part of the problem. My moral compass doesn't read a "true enough" North.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

I guess it means, as long as you've never done something similar, you can throw a rock at her?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I agree with you Manticore.

In my BIL and SIL's case, the OM was given no incentive to back down. Heck, the guy and his kids were invited to my niece's 8th birthday party and there he was, not feeling intimidated at all. 

My BIL spent months trying to nice her back, (thanks to his therapist). I think if he had taken a harder line things might be different now, (she moved out 2 weekends ago). In hindsight, three things he should have done:

-Talked to the OM directly, (BIL is over a foot taller than the OM, for Pete's sake), and ask him, "WTF, do you think you're doing?"
-Exposed to the OM's wife. His therapist nixed this because he would be seen as the "bad guy".
-Told his co-workers. Firefighters look out for each other and the OM works in the ER where the they bring in patients for our local area. If his co-workers would have known, "Hey this loser is trying to pickup my wife", the guys would have been all over it. Nothing physical but there would have been a lot of talk. The OM might have thought, "These guys coming in everyday, giving me a hard time. She is so not worth it."



> this has been my point all the time, woman are more prone to cheat first emotional and later physical, but that does not mean that the emotional cheating was because her marriage was bad or they were in a crappy marraige, they just allowed (intentionally or unintentionally) to someone else become priority to them,


This is what is so crazy about my SIL. My BIL doesn't know where or when it went wrong. It's like things were going great and then boom, she's going out with friends, texting this coworker OM and telling my BIL that, "She can't be herself around him." It's actually pretty scary stuff that things can turn on a dime like that.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> *My BIL spent months trying to nice her back, (thanks to his therapist). *I think if he had taken a harder line things might be different now, (she moved out 2 weekends ago). In hindsight, three things he should have done:
> 
> -Talked to the OM directly, (BIL is over a foot taller than the OM, for Pete's sake), and ask him, "WTF, do you think you're doing?"
> -Exposed to the OM's wife. * His therapist nixed this because he would be seen as the "bad guy".*


My God whata hell if wrong with that Therapist, it have been better if your BIL had managed things on his own instead of listening that quack.

I hope that at least now everything has been exposed to OMW.

Yes, unfortunately I am believer that there is no affair's proof human being, even if you have a good marriage is normal to have problems, and if a third party is constantly intruding giving a false sense of relief, (for any gender) it can end in disastrous circumstances.

Most of us that are already in TAM know how to detect red flags, prevents bad situations and have healthy boundaries, but lets be honest, your average Joe/Jane go for life being blissfully ignorant of this information.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Stronger-now said:


> If it helps you to feel better now, so be it. I must disagree, however, I don't think it is the best way to repair the mess. It is denial.


I don't think so, I am well aware of what cheating spouses do... I just choose not to focus on that as much as others do. I have been quite outspoken to people on forums, including this one, who have cheated. I do not give them a free pass.

I also do not rant and name call at them either.



Stronger-now said:


> Infidelity is a choice.


So is violating someone else's marriage a choice... I fail to understand why that makes the spouse's choice the point of focus?

All you are doing here is batting tennis balls around.

You say the spouse made a choice, I say OM made a choice.. we are getting nowhere doing this...

Make an argument, don't just assert a position.

If all you have is "the wayward made vows" I call BS on that.

Not having made a vow does not give one a free pass to terrorize someone's household.


Got anything else?



Stronger-now said:


> Your wife made her choice, and she is responsible for it.


And the AP made his choice...

The dance continues...

We have all heard these assertions before... do you have an actual argument?



Stronger-now said:


> If the AP in your case is married, he is also responsible for the choice he made.


So.. single men and women aren't responsible? lol

I yet again call BS on that.



Stronger-now said:


> If the AP in your case is single, well...he IS single. He is a player, has questionable morals, selfish, etc. But, he is not supposed to be held more accountable of your wife's fidelity.


I say BS on that. There are two people cheating, not just one. Do the math :

1 wayward
+
1 interloper
============
Infidelity with two cheaters




Stronger-now said:


> This way of thinking is what we call blame-shifting.


I say BS on that. I am simply suggesting that you cannot forgive a spouse if you keep focusing on their betrayal. Hold the AP accountable to balance it out.

And let's be honest... 

a. If the AP is single, the AP has no infidelity aftermath to wade through, that's the Wayward that has to sit in the penalty box.

b. If the AP is married and their side didn't get exposed there again is no infidelity aftermath for them to clean up.

In both of those scenarios the wayward is the one left holding the bag and has to do the work to clean up the mess.

Due to that, if they choose to clean it up, I am inclined to give them some credit for effort.

The AP just moves on to the next target, owning nothing in many cases.



Stronger-now said:


> You shift most of the blame toward AP. I am not saying they are not to blame, but most of the blame should be on your wife.


Again you assert this with no argument...



Stronger-now said:


> There are so many single or married men out there who just do not care about your marriage. It is just a sad fact of life. They are selfish, they take what they want, they just don't care.


This is just another rehash of the "if it wasn't that AP, it would be someone else..."

Again I call BS on that.

If I leave my front door unlocked and someone breaks in, I call the cops, I don't let them walk away and just say "if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else.."

Giving someone a free pass because there are others like them out there? That logic would free every single person accused of a crime.

If it wasn't that person doing the murder, someone else would have killed him...

I say BS on that, it's ridiculous logic... Our legal system would be a joke if our legal systems followed that kind of reasoning...



Stronger-now said:


> And as long as they do not commit a crime, there is not much you can do about it.


We are talking about blame and accountability here, not legal action.

A person can recognize that both people were cheating and give their spouse some slack. The risk in infidelity recovery is dropping 100% of the blame on the wayward and that's not fair. The wayward knows it's not fair. The wayward is not going to reconcile as smoothly as they would if you just recognize there were two people in the bed, not one.

Now again who is in denial???

Do the math, and your wayward will be a lot more cooperative.



Stronger-now said:


> You can punch one, but you cannot punch hundred thousands of them out there. It is just one of those things that you have to live with.


Yep, we have all heard that argument. I again call BS on that.

We don't withhold indictment of criminals simply due to the fact that many others also had the opportunity. And I don't recommend giving the AP a free pass and dropping all the blame on the wayward either. It's short sighted, it's not constructive, and the math just does not add up.. and the wayward knows it.



Stronger-now said:


> If you stop focusing so much on AP, and look deep into the characters of your wife, the one that caused you this anguish when you expected (and rightfully so) her to have your back, you will have a better chance at reconciling and be happy again.


I call BS on that.

I would assert the opposite, for the reasons given above. Fixating on how hurtful your spouse behaves is not going to engender a stronger bond between you and them. To my mind this just feeds resentment, estrangement, and distrust.



Stronger-now said:


> You wish infidelity would be prosecutable, but it is not. It is, again, one of those things you have to live with. Otherwise, you will continue to be angry at something you cannot do anything about.


I can speak up and maybe one day it might be. Laws don't get changed by "living with" offense...

OR

I can roll over in a lump and whimper like you suggest.

I'd rather speak up and try to make a difference.

Maybe someone may just pass a law one day because someone decided to speak up and not listen to those that advocated suffering in silence...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sandfly said:


> The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”
> 
> I guess it means, as long as you've never done something similar, you can throw a rock at her?


Can I throw more then one?

Just kiding, I'm the last person here to be throwing any stones.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"And that’s where I have a caveat... You can’t ‘drive off’ a OM and fix the problem. All you’ve done is bought some time and space. You still have a wayward thinking spouse and all that implies. They will do what they want. You didn’t ‘make them’ stop wanting that relationship, you just denied them from being able to have it."

Racer,

Oh, I agree with you.

Driving off the POS DOES NOT solve the problems at all.

But it does give you the thing you need most in that situation, and you mentioned it yourself.

The couple need time and space, free from the manipulations of POS, to have even a remote chance of working on the issues/problems that must be addressed.


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

Allen, we just have to agree to disagree.

I don’t give a free pass to any WW and AP here or in real life, spouting off their excuses and justifications. I would be blunt and call out their bullsh*t. 

IDEALLY, everyone should respect the institution of marriage. IDEALLY. But in reality, it isn’t so. Some people will willingly take what WW give freely to them.

It is not “you left the door unlocked and they break in to your house.” What happened was: your wife opened that door, greeted them with a smile and welcomed them in. 

What it boils down to:

1. I can wish everyone to respect my marriage all I want. But some people just don’t. I can sit and stew and feel bitter toward them while they continue to live their life feeling they don’t owe me anything. Or I can accept that the only person that owed me that respect is my spouse. After all, he took that vow…I was not deluded to expect and trust that he would. I would be deluded to think everyone else owes me the same respect. I would feel differently if the AP were one of my friends or my family. I expect them to have a certain moral standards and care enough about me to respect my marriage. But a stranger? 

2. Infidelity is not a crime. As much as my WW has hurt me, I don’t want to see him stoned by rocks either. I chose to forgive him for my own good. I just don’t want to deal with his crap anymore. By the way, you do realize if infidelity were a crime your AP would be in jail...but so would your wife, don’t you? Like you said, it takes two. 

I think you focus on the wrong person. I still think you are in denial, but I can understand if you choose to focus on AP in order to reconcile with your WW. I don’t suggest you roll over in a lump and whimper. Please do not put words in my mouth. I suggest you face the reality that some people out there just don’t give a cr*p about you and your marriage. Not all of us have the same moral code, otherwise…infidelity will not happen in the first place. The one that should respect your marriage is your wife, your family, and your friends. They are the people in your inner circle. They are the people that you expect and trust to love and care about you. 

What I want to know, other than verbally badgering AP here, what are you going to DO about the AP? How are you going to make him pay for what you think he owes you? Or the even bigger task that you are taking: how are you going to make a difference in the moral codes, particularly concerning someone else’s marital vows, of everyone in the world? Are you going to petition to change federal (just in case the AP lives in another state, we know some affairs are conducted long-distance too) and state’s laws concerning infidelity? 

Anger is our emotion to let us know that something is not right. We won’t stop feeling resentful and angry unless we do something about it. So what are you going to do about your anger to AP? Are you going to beat him to a pulp and risk going to jail for it? Are you going post him on Cheaterville? Are you going to try to make him lose his job? And then what…? Do you think you will stop feeling angry if he is black and blue, with no job, and stares at every insults you can think of with his picture next to it on Cheaterville? If you believe you will be happy again after you destroy AP’s life, SO BE IT. 

I believe it will give you a certain satisfaction yes, but you will still feel angry.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> If you are simply a "tourist" viewing this from a distance. It's interesting to see how differently men and women view things.
> 
> When you are in it. It's just plain painful. I couldn't imagine being physically with another man and having to tell my H the details. Ugh, that would be dreadful. No way to make that OK, say it was awful he's not going to buy it. Say it was good and he is going to have that mess with his head.


Exactly - but say nothing and their mind goes into overdrive wondering anyway. Their heads get messed whichever way you slice it. 

Best for the WS to come clean and lay it on with a trowel. The WS had their fun now they can wear sh!t for it. If it aids reconciliation then that's a good thing. 

My WS's silence helps how?


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Allen, your post sound like a man who needed to blame the op to reconcile. Get mad if you want. That is how it sounds. The om owed you nothing. The world aint fair. No one forced you to get married. And your wife would have likely found someone else to cheat with anyway. Period. And your wife knew what she was doing. Period.

I wonder how many people would take back a cheater if they did not believe in the fog.

Anything that takes the fault away from the cheater is at all is weak. I dont want a woman who cannot say no to a man. Whose mind can easily be altered by a fog. 

And the very minute the cheater sees the horror they have delivered to the bs the affair should end. the fog should be lifted when they see the tears, weight loss, insomnia, suicidal thoughts, ptsd, and fear. 

If it does not your spouse does not really love you. Its one thing when they are in the affair and dont believe they will be caught, but once they are, and they see the receipt of the deed they commited they should see that receipt everytime they think of the ap. Again, if they dont they dont really love and are only sorry they were caught.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

illwill said:


> Allen, your post sound like a man who needed to blame the op to reconcile. Get mad if you want. That is how it sounds. The om owed you nothing. The world aint fair. No one forced you to get married. And your wife would have likely found someone else to cheat with anyway. *Period*. And your wife knew what she was doing. *Period*.


No wonder people are getting grumpy in this thread. So many periods at once is asking for trouble. Yes, I'm immature.

While I agree with you, if someone sees the wedding ring and still goes for it, or knows the WS is in a relationship, then they have done wrong, and just like any out of control dog, they only respond to punishment.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I destroyed my wifes om. But it was nothing compared to what i did to my wife. It seems to me many bs try to avoid truly dealing with the cheater by only going after the ap. They want to balance out the fallout. But you cannot because only one of them was married to you.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

illwill said:


> I destroyed my wifes om. But it was nothing compared to what i did to my wife. It seems to me many bs try to avoid truly dealing with the cheater by only going after the ap. They want to balance out the fallout. But you cannot because only one of them was married to you.


You're right. Good of you to have dealt with both.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

It's all well and good to suggest the OM 'backs down' - but how often is that going to happen? Seriously? 

There is also an air of pointless waste of time and energy in confronting: the OM or OW will already have in their own mind what they're doing and why they are doing it.
The most common one I've read with (both men and women) is "I'm giving them what their husband/wife isn't"

Being all dramatic and threatening will just make them think you're a little crazy and approaching them with a sense of common-sense and calmness will make them think you're weak (_"Please stay away from my wife/husband"_)

Furthermore, as The Flood suggested, what if the OM or OW is a little nuts themselves....a Sociopath? People like this are either narcissistic or have low-self-esteem or both.
It just spells 'Desperate'.

It also gives your WW or WH a sense of entitlement and ego-boost too....like the 'Pick Me Dance'...and for women, I still think they love all that two-guys-fighting-for-her instinct that's been around for how long??


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

I confronted my WW OM.
It worked
I think I came off like a crazy mad man.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

davecarter said:


> There is also an air of pointless waste of time and energy in confronting: the OM or OW will already have in their own mind what they're doing and why they are doing it.
> The most common one I've read with (both men and women) is "I'm giving them what their husband/wife isn't"
> 
> *Being all dramatic and threatening will just make them think you're a little crazy and approaching them with a sense of common-sense and calmness will make them think you're weak ("Please stay away from my wife/husband")*
> ...


is not about being macho or reasoning with OM, is about make them face consequences, people who abuses keep doing it until someone face them with consequences, example.

someone broke in my father's house recently, it was the gardener, my father lives in a residencial area with private security, you know what we found, it was the gardener who Works fro alot of families in the área, they have already fired him in other 3 houses for stealing objects and cash valued between 5k and 10k in each home, so how he keep doing it?

easy, nobody reaised charges for fear of retaliation, so they just fired him but never warned other neighbors, so of course he keep making maths and if the only consequence was being fired, well nothing to fear right.

we raised charges, we warned all the neighbors (most were still unaware and still letting him work), the neighbor association forbiden him the entry in the residential area, and you can guess how his references are now.

but my father's home was the 4 house, OMs are like that if they have no consequences they are gonna keep screewing marriages, if the only consequence for him is a "stay away from my wife" of course they are going to keep looking for married women, the benefits exceed by far the consequences.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"The om owed you nothing."

I disagree.

It a civilized community, we DO owe each other a lot.

We BOTH owe each other the following:

Not to assault or injure each other.

Not to steal or damage each other's property.

Not to wrong or insult each other without cause.

These are the basic premises of the social contract on which our society is based.

A POS AP violates each of these to some degree in their actions towards the BS.

In my book, the social contract stipulates that I an supposed to leave justice for these wrongs to the state in order to avoid a societal breakdown along the lines of lex talionis.

However, in my opinion, if the state refuses to give me justice for the wrongs I have been done, then I retain my rights to vengeance for the injuries done to me.

F POS AP's! 

They deserve anything they receive as consequences from the AP, and in the vast majority of cases it will be far less than the damage they have inflicted.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

If i was making a list of things that would be on the list. But it would still be low. The world aint fair. And people do much worst things than this to each other. 

Ive seen things as a volunteer that make the worst stories here seem sweet.

If you want to ruin your life for two cheaters go for it. They will not care.

I have no issue going after ap as long as you double that for your spouse. Anything less is a cop out.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"If you want to ruin your life for two cheaters go for it. They will not care."

How is exposing a POS to his friends and family. his BW/gf (if he has one), or his employer (if it would cause him problems or even it's loss, especially if he is a co-worker) going to possibly ruin my life?

I would return every ounce of damage on POS's life as he has done to mine.

F him.

And the reason you see a large portion of the s****y behavior of humans towards each other is because so many people tolerate or put up with a**holes and their actions.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

You said if the law did not right the wrong of ap then u would have your vevengeance. Clarify what that means. And do i seem like a guy who gave my wifes ap a pass? Also check your tone when you respond to me.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

:iagree:

that argument make alot of sense, letting feelings aside.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I could not agree more. It should be a law. Every state should be "at fault" states. Its awful that a guy loses his house, half his check, and his children because his wife got bored.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

illwill.

The law will do nothing. You know this I;m sure.

Vengeance, payback, whatever you want to call it. What I mean in F'ing with the POS's life in any way I possibly can.

I never advocated permanent violent actions (though an a** beating if it can be done without putting yourself in jail isn't out of line).

I was not giving you attitude, just disagreeing strongly will your view to ignore the POSOM.

If you take that as being 'giving you a tone', I guess there is nothing I can do about it. 

You don't have to agree with me, but I don't have to back down from your aggressive attitude either, especially since I never attacked you or said a negative personal word about you.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Point out exactly where i said the posom should be ignored. 

Specifically.

In fact i said the exact opposite.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Allen, your post sound like a man who needed to blame the op to reconcile. Get mad if you want. That is how it sounds. The om owed you nothing."

illwill,

Maybe I misinterpreted your meaning here, but I took this as you saying OM owed you nothing and so should not be dealt with by a BH.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize, that's on me.

But regardless, I never attacked you or disparaged you, just disagreed with the point I thought you were making.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Moment of Truth said:


> Respectfully I disagree. It absolutely should be against the law. We have created marriage as a legal construct. I have to sign a document with witnesses to become married. If we divorce the law will force me to pay some form of spousal support. Everything about marriage is tied up in legalities so why would straying the WRITTEN contract that you entered into not be punishable by law?
> 
> All that being said in hindsight I don't think any part of marriage should be dictated by law or government. And if I were to do it again I probably never would have bowed to the social construct of marriage and just made vows to my wife and my character would have dictated whether or not I followed them. Not fear of loss by law.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair enough. There seems to me to be something more than a bit unsettling in the idea of making marital infidelity a crime. What would be the punishment? Stoning? The stockade? Beheading? I am not trying to be silly here. Thems are and have been the rules some places I do not want to live. Now, an interesting proposition that I have not thought through would be looking at marriage as a contract, as you seem to suggest, and opening persons who break that contract or induce or facilitate the breaking of that contract to some form of economic damages (tortious interference and all that). That might be fun. Again, not thought through. And on balance I just think this is the stuff of we all know or should know what is right and wrong and if you choose someone who it turns out doesn't or does but doesn't seem to care, we'll you pays your money you take your chances. Choose again.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "Allen, your post sound like a man who needed to blame the op to reconcile. Get mad if you want. That is how it sounds. The om owed you nothing."
> 
> illwill,
> 
> ...


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> Once saw a situation like this with a couple and OM that were all in an extended group of friends I was also part of.
> 
> The H was basically a good guy, a little insensitive to his W at times, but definitely not an a**hole.
> 
> ...


That is a true friend.

Years ago there was a BH's young adult son's. On their own they went and visited the OM. They had a talk. What was said was not told. Though the OM dropped the WW and disappeared from their lives.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Fair enough. There seems to me to be something more than a bit unsettling in *the idea of making marital infidelity a crime. *What would be the punishment? Stoning? The stockade? Beheading? I am not trying to be silly here. Thems are and have been the rules some places I do not want to live. Now, an interesting proposition that I have not thought through would be looking at marriage as a contract, as you seem to suggest, and opening persons who break that contract or induce or facilitate the breaking of that contract to some form of economic damages (tortious interference and all that). That might be fun. Again, not thought through. And on balance I just think this is the stuff of we all know or should know what is right and wrong and if you choose someone who it turns out doesn't or does but doesn't seem to care, we'll you pays your money you take your chances. Choose again.


Let's also remember, that people do not judge and eavluate their marriage partners with the same precision that you would an employee or a business partner.

Among family issues, there just isn't the same level or rigor in evaluation.

for example, I cringe when I hear women claiming that since they have been a "a MOM" they are qualified for a job.

Maybe, but not necessarily,. I don't recall my mother ever planning budgets; making the effort to stick to them; having goals and objectives for each of her children in terms of academics and extracurricular activities; my mother was constantly late, not only in getting us to places (her lateness became a joke among people who knew her) but also in getting applications in on time......

But still my father loved my mother. and even when she was supposed to do the bookkeeping of his practice which resulted in an investigation from the IRS, he still loved my mother...... Had she been my father's employee, he would have fired her.

In other words, while there are standards that we should adhere to in our personal relationships, I don't think we can make a point for point comparison between personal relationships and other types of relationships.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Stronger-now said:


> Excellent. I agree completely.
> 
> That's why in many instances WS actually affaired down. It was hard for STBXH to feel "better" than me because I am smarter, more successful, and possess many other (positive) traits compared to him. Some have also told me that I am physically more attractive which bugged him a lot. When I read their emails (can't even spell, cheesy, etc.), saw pictures of the women he cheated with, I was floored. Strangely, I was disappointed that he broke my heart for those kind of women. But I guess they could stroke his ego better than I ever could.
> 
> ...


People affair down because those most likely willing to cheat are not like the woman in the music video Stacy's Mom Got It Going On.

Chances when you are good looking all things are going well in your life, relationships, financial, material.

Most people that are not doing so good are on the search to fill wholes in themselves and medicate themselves with affairs.

Hence most AP's are a step down.

Most does not mean all. As to why the do their ex's. That is simple they remember the lust, the good times, while they forgot the negatives that cause the relationship back when.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Fair enough. There seems to me to be something more than a bit unsettling in the idea of making marital infidelity a crime. What would be the punishment? Stoning? The stockade? Beheading? I am not trying to be silly here.


this point has been already mentioned. financial consequences

se for example Bff's case, his marriage was a sham, for 6 years (half the marriage or realtionship I don't remember it exactly) his wife had been cheating on him with his "friend".

he worked really hard to make the company where he worked public, he became a top executive and he was buying a new house to begin a family with his wife, at the same time he was being considarate with his friend hiring him for remodeling or implementation in the house during those 6 years.

and still if he had remained married one year more he had ended´paying spousal support for life, does that sounds fair?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

manticore said:


> this point has been already mentioned. financial consequences
> 
> se for example Bff's case, his marriage was a sham, for 6 years (half the marriage or realtionship I don't remember it exactly) his wife had been cheating on him with his "friend".
> 
> ...


Fine, but now we are in the world of breach and tort, not crime. The initial proposition I thought was that hey maybe we should make infidelity against the law. Breaking the law = crime. Breaking a legally binding and enforceable contract or committing an actionable tort = money damages or other civil remedies. So it seems we have issues and terms conflated. That's OK.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Kill them all and let God sort it out...

But thats just me.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

[picture]



Dyokemm said:


> Once saw a situation like this with a couple and OM that were all in an extended group of friends I was also part of.
> 
> The H was basically a good guy, a little insensitive to his W at times, but definitely not an a**hole.
> 
> ...


[/picture]

What's wrong with this picture?


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Fine, but now we are in the world of breach and tort, not crime. The initial proposition I thought was that hey maybe we should make infidelity against the law. Breaking the law = crime. Breaking a legally binding and enforceable contract or committing an actionable tort = money damages or other civil remedies. So it seems we have issues and terms conflated. That's OK.


you are right, and if this were a debate you would had scored a point because were using incorrectly the terminology of the words, but I think that you understand that when most people write "ilegal" or "crime" they mean that in most states there are no consequences for cheaters, and the cheater partner can get away with not just destroying emotionally her BS but also financially. (this is referred for men in most cases)

also, a damn fine will probably help the BS (whatever the sex) to feel that justice is being served (more like something symbolic)


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

manticore said:


> you are right, and if this were a debate you would had scored a point because were using incorrectly the terminology of the words, but I think that you understand that when most people write "ilegal" or "crime" they mean that in most states there are no consequences for cheaters, and the cheater partner can get away with not just destroying emotionally her BS but also financially. (this is referred for men in most cases)
> 
> also, a damn fine will probably help the BS (whatever the sex) to feel that justice is being served (more like something symbolic)


Even moving into that understanding, I still think the right regime in marriage is you pays your money, you take your chances. Anything else becomes a bigger mess. When I was a kid, 3rd of 3 boys with a younger sister, #4, we kept a ledger. It was the bank of Mom and Dad. I earned some money from my paper route, I could hand it over to Mom or Dad and a ledger entry would reflect an increase in my balance. I took some out to buy a balsawood airplane, a debit. All of that seemed to work OK until one day my little sister got it in her head that she should receive a credit "because John [my next older brother] was mean to me [Anne]." That was the entry. "John was mean to me - - - - $2. I hadn't thought of it in a while, but remember it now. That was the beginning of the end of the ledger. People started making entries and debits based on how they felt they had been treated by someone else. It had always worked on the honor system and now it just became silly. I am sure I have a positive account balance that I never recovered on account of the total breakdown in the ledger system.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I guess what I mean to say is making this about money damages seems to me to cheapen and trivialize the real hurt and things that are about much more than money. It also I think would tend to make these really painful and messy affairs much more of a circus.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I guess what I mean to say is making this about money damages seems to me to cheapen and trivialize the real hurt and things that are about much more than money. It also I think would tend to make these really painful and messy affairs much more of a circus.


I know you mean no harm, but try to use this argument with OPs like "disenchanted" or "cantthinkstraight" that are losing their houses and getting drowned in debt for someone else selfish actions.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"My point was dont go after the ap, while giving your wife a pass. And dont use the ap as a excuse to lesson the horror of the wifes actions."

I agree with this 100%.

Sorry for the misunderstanding illwill.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

manticore said:


> I know you mean no harm, but try to use this argument with OPs like "disenchanted" or "cantthinkstraight" that are losing their houses and getting drowned in debt for someone else selfish actions.


It's not right. I know their stories and others. Not only do I not mean any harm, I really am not doing any. What would be the solution? You can sue your spouse for infidelity? Then can they sue you back because you were not the husband they wanted? Look, man. Sucks, no doubt.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

manticore said:


> First of all let me tell you that is not my intention to open old wounds or insult other users because I will be mentioning some TAM users to exemplify my theory.
> 
> for years before oficially joining TAM I was a lurker devoring and Reading every case of infidelity I was able to find in forums like: love shack. Marriage Builders, TAM, Marriage helpers, experience Project, etc.
> 
> ...


I think I agree. I wonder if this would still be the same if the genders were reversed?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

manticore said:


> "Mr Mathias" kind of the same, he found out before it was full intercourse, confronted Mrs Mathias and OM but OM keep pursuing her and again it happened.


Maybe off topic, but I thought the Mathias situation was full on serial Mary Kay Letourneau stuff.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Maybe off topic, but I thought the Mathias situation was full on serial Mary Kay Letourneau stuff.


Yeah, I thought that too. In fact no thinking really, I read it.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

there were alot of trickle truth in her original threads (dont take me wrong I know she is remorseful and have been doing all the right steps towards reconcilation and I respect her opinion and advices), and alot of confessions that were revealed later in other threads but for what I remember in the final version:

she had virtual sex and even a BJ (not sure of this one) before Mr mathias DD1, but not intercourse, after DD1 no contact was implemented, but the OM keep persuing her and they went underground and had about 5 encounters before DD2.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Maybe off topic, but I thought the Mathias situation was full on serial Mary Kay Letourneau stuff.


I had to look up that name. I remembered the case, just not the people involved. 



manticore said:


> she had virtual sex and even a BJ (not sure of this one) before Mr mathias DD1, but not intercourse, after DD1 no contact was implemented, but the OM keep persuing her and they were underground and had about 5 encounters before DD2.


MrsM and her AP met when he was 18, he was her student and I believe her academic advisee. As she said later 'she was an antenna wired to his frequency' and felt that when they first met. How anyone could not recognize that as a chemistry to be aware of I'll never know, but she maintains it was just an 'easiness' in getting along. 

When they started their EA he was 21 and technically wasn't an enrolled student, although he was singing in her chorus and taking part in school theatrical productions. Both of them clearly wanted to stay involved in each others lives. I still feel it was a huge ethical problem and IMO she could have been fired- I certainly would not have defended her to administration. In her head they were two like minds and because he helped her do things on a professional level she no longer saw him as 'student' but as 'best friend and confidant who believed in her vision'. Keep in mind that the theater culture she was involved with had a lot of blurred lines when it came to being friends with students outside of school. I think she experienced some of the same in high school, so she really didn't see the inappropriateness and inherent dangers. 

I know I would have a hard time nailing a former student and not thinking of them as a student, although it would be easier with a non-trad about my age than a student I met when they were just past age of majority. I can recognize that there's a massive difference in mentality between 21 and 36 but for MrsM age wasn't an issue. The sad thing is she seems to have just assumed they were of like minds, she doesn't seem to have ever asked that annoying 'what are you thinking?' of him, the lucky devil. I'm sure he would have said 'Just how much I love you' and that would have melted her little heart 

To address the original topic MrsM and AP had an EA, two-way oral before she left for our NYC trip, webcam shows and sexting for two months while they were apart, two-way oral when she got back, and DDay1 that night. She sent an NC message via FB, as did I. I didn't confront AP in person at the time, I really regret not doing that. I of course didn't know the truth and she'd lied about her level of remorse, and it was heavy PA before DDay1. 

Next contact was about a month later roughly, with AP showing up unexpectedly at her office looking teary-eyed and vulnerable. She sent him off in a hurry, without finding out why he showed up like that (and never did bring it up again, that I know of). 

MrsM and I saw him walking on the sidewalk one day as we were driving home, and a few days later she dropped by his upscale McDonalds workplace to check on him and see if he was doing okay because she had 'feelings of dread; about him, that something was wrong. 

The rest is history. So yes, POSOM broke NC first, but it was weak NC via Facebook. I was a ***** and didn't expose like I should have, etc. etc. Bottom line is MrsM didn't try very hard after he came to her office and she was the one that enabled most of their physical meetings. She made her new Skype, new gmail, drove to his house. He didn't exactly have to work hard to get the presents she had to offer.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

MrMathias said:


> I didn't confront AP in person at the time, I really regret not doing that.


MrMathias, you know it wouldn't have mattered, right? That's not something you should regret, especially since you trusted your wife. I have read some of MrsMathias' stuff, and she comes across as a very articulate person, truly remorseful and filled with regret. I didn't know the story, though. 

You did nothing wrong. There is NOTHING about your behavior you should regret. Continue to be a good father. And feel good about that.


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