# Three EAs that I'm having a hard time dealing with...



## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Struggling with a string of EA's my wife had over the first part of this year. Best as I can tell she got lonely and started looking for attention because I just wasn't around as much as she was used to. We were high school sweet hearts and I've loved her like she was the only woman on this earth since the beginning. 

Some background:
For years I owned my own business, made lots of money and worked in the basement. I spoiled her and did a lot around the house. I lost my business and contracts during the present economic issue and was unemployed for almost a year. I finally found a job making a fraction of what I normally did and my wife had returned to the job force after taking some time off after her boss suddenly died. We almost lost everything... foreclosure, etc wasn't far off. 

So both of us were working and we have handicapped teen that is unable to care for himself.. I had to work mostly second shift to get him on his bus. So we saw each other rarely during the week and on weekends I didn't have to work. I exercise about an hour or two daily and compete in triathlons... working a desk job I feel this makes for a good way to remain healthy and is a hobby of sorts. Most of my workouts were either at work or in the mornings before going into work. 

So... my job starts in July 2010 and in Feb. 2011 my wife meets some guy installing a technical system in her office that interfaces with many machines she manages. They hit it off the week he's there I suppose and it turns into them sexting, talking on the phone... you garden variety EA. Thankfully he lives out of state I guess and at some point they decide they are married, we should just be friends. They remained in contact because she utilizes him for the system he installed and I know he has at least thrown in some sexual innuendo into his texts during their "just friends now" period. 

After they break it off my wife started going to the gym doing a few miles on the eliptical and losing weight... I knew she was having a hard time being the one playing single mom a lot during the evening and I think exercise is a great thing... so I thought great... but no it was an avoidance thing to deal with EA #1 IMO. She ended up placing an ad on some dating late March to the effect of looking for someone, but "not looking to add any notches to her bed post". She hooked up with some swinger guy, they text for a week and go out about four times... eat dinner, shoot pool, went back to his place twice. She claims they mostly talked about me and he told her how she needed to communicate with me. I read some of their texts and it seems that it truly was non sexual in a physical way... or maybe I'm being really naive. Anyway EA #2.

I found out about both of these the beginning of April... saw a note in her sent file talking about EA #1 and all of a sudden I felt odd that she was out that night. Turns out she was out with EA #2 and when I got home from work late, she was at his house and not outside the pool hall as she had said... I could tell by the quiet and echo during our call she was in a room. She comes home and I'm just feeling all of a sudden like something is a miss... she had been telling me my exercise was a huge problem for her, but truth of the matter was most of the time I was gone was work. I thought we had a tight bond, I felt lonely from her, etc. 

So we stay up most of the night me proding her to see if she will open up as all I know at this point is that she had EA #1 and I was real suspicious about where she had been that evening... she came in with a bag with toiletries, brush, etc. EA #2 texted her while we were talking as I went outside to get her phone... she followed me outside in her black net panties... I knew something was really off here for her to follow me out into the driveway and down our residential road albeit late at night... people do come through all the time. 

This starts a new phase where EA #2 says they need to break communication if I'm not cool with it wife shuts down, starts being really hateful, talks about us splitting, does not love me, etc. I'm reeling here... they continue to text as my wife texted him that I had said they could talk... but she ended their relationship late April 2011 via text saying if she wanted to fix her relationship, she had to let him go... supposedly he was the surrogate for things she couldn't say to me. She showed me their text conversation, which looked to have some glaring holes of deletions... but that' just an assumption. She called and texted me from work that day in full breakdown mode and I went to her as quick as I could... she sobbing, said she was sorry, etc. 

Next day is a Saturday and she wanted to go out with a girlfriend, so she did. She met a guy near the end of the night and gave him her number. The end up texting each other a bunch over the next two weeks into May 2011. This guy is supposedly in a separation scenario with a wife that cheated... my wife and him just being friends, meeting for lunch... all behind my back of course. Also there is sex talk with this guy, i.e. "you want to f me for lunch". I showed up to their lunch date that I found out about, apparently EA #3 was led to believe my wife was separated, he said he had misunderstood things and left.

I just don't know what to do with all of this... no sex happened AFAIK, but otherwise my trust, loyaly, marriage vows, etc have all been trounced on. It was sort of a EA snowball that started in early April and I was completely devastated. I'm quite resourceful and only know what I know because I dug... My wife seems remorseful, but her attitude is somewhat of the get over it, I have sort of thing. Also, she doesn't want to go back and relieve it... I'm sort of blown away by that one. Also simple stuff like her remaining Facebook friends with EA #1. She finally deleted him after a long discussion about why I didn't like it. He had tried to contact her the other day to chat on FB... just not cool with me. She still has a pic of EA #2 on her phone and other stuff I'd prefer she just get rid of like EA #3 from her contact list in her phone. 

I love her and I want to move on... I'm just not sure how? She'd just like for me to act like nothing ever happened, but it's hard. Three EA's is hard to handle. She had an EA 13 years ago and we made it through that, but I'm left with all sorts of mental yo-yo'ing. I'm seeing a therapist and he has classified my wife as Borderline (personality disorder) and doesn't make me feel very hopeful with her. 

I love her though, I can't help it I do... just not sure how I go forward or what is realistic. What do I/we do?

In terms of my schedule, I've managed to find a way to work first shift... so I can be around more... but part of me thinks why am I the one who had to find that solution? I don't know I've typed a lot I hope it makes some sense.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

She is emotionally promiscous.

Four affairs. (You say three, but then at the end say there was one 13 years ago).

If she wants you to "act like nothing ever happened" she is deluding herself. 

I would cut her loose. For the sheer fact she wants you to sweep this under the rug and still has pics of her affair partners on her phone and still reaches out to them via FB and otherwise.

She is not committed to your marriage.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

So counting the one 13 years ago, your aware of 4 *cough*cough* Emotional Affairs ?

If I caught what you said, she had a breakdown and sobbed about how sorry she was about one of the affairs and the very next day started another one?

She has also been fishing publically, not just browing dating sites but actually placing ads? 

Get familiar with the term iceburg. That jagged piece of ice floating around in your marriage is likely the size of texas under the surface.

You mentioned/minimized one (or more) or her affairs being 'garden variety'. Well to use your expression, your Wife sounds like a garden variety serial cheater. 

At this point, the best thing you can do is protect yourself and do anything you can to disconnect / galvanize yourself and your child(ren)from the thermo nuclear bomb which is about to go off. Something is badly broken inside of her and she is 'ticking'. If your finally listening, it's really loud.

I wish you the best and Im sorry for your situation. FTR. I would love to be wrong. I'm afraid I'm not though.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

20 years I've been with this woman... she's my best friend amond everything else which probably sounds really dumb... I just feel completely broken.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Tisme said:


> 20 years I've been with this woman... she's my best friend amond everything else which probably sounds really dumb... I just feel completely broken.


I doesn't sound dumb.

We all feel your pain and understand. 

Unfortuneately, none of that changes anything. It is what it is and it really really really SUCKS. 

You have to deal with this, or it will deal with you.

The good news is you are in the right place and you will get help and guidance here. There are soooooo many knowledgable people here that will try to help you. 

It's all up to you what you do with whats given to you here.


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## Lostouthere (Aug 24, 2011)

Tisme keep your head up and cut it loose man you dont need to keep allowing this type of behavior. At one point you got to say enough is enough. 

Sorry your going through this.


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

you need to learn the laws of attraction. your wife has no respect for you which means she is sexually repulsed by you. take a hard stand, give her time to figure out you have changed and some feeling may come back. quit being a p**** and take control of your life.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Tisme said:


> 20 years I've been with this woman... she's my best friend amond everything else which probably sounds really dumb... I just feel completely broken.


One year, twenty years or even forty years it doesn't matter. If the marriage has become toxic because of an affair(s) then it is time to consider cutting ones losses and move on. 

As Pit and Jelly said, she has a history of having EAs and she wants to sweep them under the rug as though nothing happened. You know full well that unless she commits through psychological counseling to resolve to never again have another EA, that she will have more in the future.

Stop being nostalgic and live in the here and now. Her actions speak volumes and it is up to you to judge them and chose whether to remain married under the same conditions or to prepare to move on with your life without her.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She came home carrying a bag and wearing mesh panties after being over at #2s place fir a while, and you really think it isn't PA? Common really? 

She has clearly been having PAs , otherwise these guys would not be hanging out with her. There would be no need to be gone for hours to their house etc. 

Before you can deal with her behavior you need to honestly accept what she has been up to, do you know what you are dealing with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Tisme said:


> 20 years I've been with this woman... she's my best friend.


I hate to have to say this. But you have to face the ugly reality.

She is not your best friend. 

Friends or "best friends" do not do to one another what your wife is doing to you. 

Everytime you start thinking about what she has done and continues to do and you hear that little voice in your head say "yeah, but.." or you catch yourself making excuses for the "why's".. that's just denial, it's very natural. It's you protecting yourself from a vey painful truth and not and to wanting to face this reality.. I'm afraid the truth is...

Your feelings, and your pain are secondary to her. In the world she lives in in her head, you are a piece of a reality she feels trapped in and is trying very aggresively to escape. Your feelings are just an inconvience and likely an annoyance to her. 

I'm sorry.

Who you remember or the idea of 'her' your holding onto is NOT who your married to.

It really sucks to have to say these things.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Dude! Wtf! Come on already!

Total PA! Women don't go over to the EAs guys house to have tea and biscuits. Wearing fishnets and coming home with an overnight bag.

First. Go here. Marriage Builders® Discussion Forums: Divorce busting 180 degree list

Then, go to the men's clubhouse and read up on mannin up

Go buy some books. No more mr nice guy. And also Hold Onto Your NUTS
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

You're her best friend though, because you help her pay the bills and she gets to go out with OM. Hell I would love a best friend like you.

Get tough, stop feeling sorry for yourself anymore. You allowed this to happen by not standing up for yourself. Time to do some self reflection and see why you have so little self esteem for yourself to allow someone to walk all over you for the past 20 years.

And 3 EAs only, you have got to be kidding yourself and you know it. You're hoping it's only 3 but deep down in your heart you suspect there have probably been alot more but are to afraid to find out.

I'll just close my eyes, click my heals 3 times and tell myself it's all ok. Then poof, we're back to square one and I get my loving wife back. Time to wake up, fantasy time is over it's time to face reality from this point on.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I will be the bearer of bad news-

serial cheaters almost never change, we're talking some serious IC and major core personality changing for it to happen. (I have yet to hear of a case on the forums)

Your wife is a serial cheater/compulsive liar


Do what's right for you- get the f**ck outta dodge.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

I wanna be as big of a Devil's advocate as I can be... she claims my exercise was like an affair. For instance I would have Thursdays off some weeks and I would go to swim practice that evening... I was to compete for a national championship and a world championship next year had the wheels not fallen off. The night of the mesh panties was the night before a race I finished third after crashing my bike, banging up my knee. Probably one of the worst days of my life, I crossed the finish line, found a place away from the crowd and just crumbled... tired coming in, emotionally drained, injuring myself and then emptying myself physically...

I've cut my exercise back, but even with that in mind she never was as ignored as she seems to think she was. I've tried to look at it objectively, but maybe I'm being blind there. I think its healthy for people to have interests and activities in addition to work and family.

Oh and by the way... I do and have felt like the world's biggest wuss throughout this... embarrassing really!!!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Tisme said:


> I wanna be as big of a Devil's advocate as I can be... she claims my exercise was like an affair. For instance I would have Thursdays off some weeks and I would go to swim practice that evening... I was to compete for a national championship and a world championship next year had the wheels not fallen off. The night of the mesh panties was the night before a race I finished third after crashing my bike, banging up my knee. Probably one of the worst days of my life, I crossed the finish line, found a place away from the crowd and just crumbled... tired coming in, emotionally drained, injuring myself and then emptying myself physically...
> 
> I've cut my exercise back, but even with that in mind she never was as ignored as she seems to think she was. I've tried to look at it objectively, but maybe I'm being blind there. I think its healthy for people to have interests and activities in addition to work and family.


listen to yourself

how is this even comparable?

*IT'S BLAMESHIFTING*

even if you wish to subscribe to the belief that you were absent too much in the relationship *IT IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO CHEAT- LET ALONE 4 TIMES!!!*


I want you to imagine this-

imagine your best buddy is telling you this story- what advice would give him in earnest? You'd want to help your friend out and tell him to get his head out of his ass and wake up to what this witch has done and to stop living his life in fear because *HE DESERVES BETTER!!!*


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Tisme said:


> I wanna be as big of a Devil's advocate as I can be... she claims my exercise was like an affair. For instance I would have Thursdays off some weeks and I would go to swim practice that evening... I was to compete for a national championship and a world championship next year had the wheels not fallen off. The night of the mesh panties was the night before a race I finished third after crashing my bike, banging up my knee. Probably one of the worst days of my life, I crossed the finish line, found a place away from the crowd and just crumbled... tired coming in, emotionally drained, injuring myself and then emptying myself physically...
> 
> I've cut my exercise back, but even with that in mind she never was as ignored as she seems to think she was. I've tried to look at it objectively, but maybe I'm being blind there. I think its healthy for people to have interests and activities in addition to work and family.
> 
> Oh and by the way... I do and have felt like the world's biggest wuss throughout this... embarrassing really!!!


Tis.....

Don't cut back on the exercise! It's just an excuse she's using to justify her own guilt. Your schedule is not even that intrusive. I've had more committed schedules and never had the comment about my affair with my passion.

Ok. Next....you are in the first stages of this. So what you are experiencing is normal. Everyone goes through this stage. It's called Analysis Paralysis, and it's your minds way of coming up with ANY excuse to believe things aren't as bad as they are. Because seriously.....this will be the worst painful times of your life. You already know the truth. The faster you accept this, the quicker you will begin to heal. Notice I didn't say easier. I just said quicker. Facing reality as fast as you can will get you out of your own limbo and you will then start to come up with a new game plan for your life and everything in it.

Hey, if you want to resolve your marriage...that's an option. I tried too. It can be successful. But listen to what the posters say here. We have seen this script so many times the advise you get here will work. But its a hard road, and most of it will be so counterintuitive to what you think is supposed to work you will get scared and frustrated at some of the advise. Some you will take. Some you will just have to learn the hard way.

Take care, bud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh. If you want to dissolve your marriage....keep listening to the posters here too for that roads advise. 

Whatever path you choose, Your wife will blame, beg, lie, accuse and yell at you for the silliest things. You will hear the worst words to ever come out of her mouth. Youre resolve will be tested to the extreme limits. Sometimes you will cave. Sometimes you won't. Just keep strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Tis---You are deluding yourself, if you think nothing physical happened with #2

She went to his house twice---that is not just to talk---talking is done over the phone, at work, at restaurants---they were in private---believe me they went physical

Did your wife have F O O problems---she seems to lack any kind of maturity, and control

You cannot just sweep this under the rug---she needs to be accountable---she needs to show heavy remorse, and contriteness---she needs to go fully transparent, come off all electronics, completely, and stop talking to the male sex altogether

We both know that ain't gonna happen, so you need to figure out what your future is to be----The woman you love, is not the woman you are presently married to---this woman, does not give a rats a*s about you---she ends one A., and starts another the next day---she goes looking for men on the internet--How much misery do you intend to live with

She knows how to lie, deceive, con, cajole, and above all how to manipulate you

Yes the mge., had problems, but mature partners, communicate ---you probably spent way to much time training, and competing, but you needed an outlet---but it turned out to be at the expense of the mge., she had her own marital problems

If you stay the above boundaries have to be in place, plus you should put in a POST--NUP.

Good luck whatever you do, but please stop excusing her for her cheating---she has no excuses for cheating.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> She is emotionally promiscous.
> 
> Four affairs. (You say three, but then at the end say there was one 13 years ago).
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

She is seeking these out. An EA can happen out of friendships that get too close. However what you descibe is someone seeking this out. I doubt we are talking about just EAs here.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tisme said:


> I wanna be as big of a Devil's advocate as I can be... she claims my exercise was like an affair. For instance I would have Thursdays off some weeks and I would go to swim practice that evening... I was to compete for a national championship and a world championship next year had the wheels not fallen off. The night of the mesh panties was the night before a race I finished third after crashing my bike, banging up my knee. Probably one of the worst days of my life, I crossed the finish line, found a place away from the crowd and just crumbled... tired coming in, emotionally drained, injuring myself and then emptying myself physically...
> 
> I've cut my exercise back, but even with that in mind she never was as ignored as she seems to think she was. I've tried to look at it objectively, but maybe I'm being blind there. I think its healthy for people to have interests and activities in addition to work and family.
> 
> Oh and by the way... I do and have felt like the world's biggest wuss throughout this... embarrassing really!!!


Exercising is not like you banging a bunch of other women.



> She ended up placing an ad on some dating late March to the effect of looking for someone, but "not looking to add any notches to her bed post". She hooked up with some swinger guy, they text for a week and go out about four times... eat dinner, shoot pool, went back to his place twice. She claims they mostly talked about me and he told her how she needed to communicate with me. I read some of their texts and it seems that it truly was non sexual in a physical way... or maybe I'm being really naive.


UFB

Wow, a swinger guy on a dating site who goes on four dates with a mrried woman, has her come back to his place twice with her wearing mesh panties at least once and they don't have sex ...

They "mostly" talked about her husband. He was giving her marital advice.

UFB

Now keep in mind, and this is just me, but my wife posting on a website like that looking for any body would be a deal breaker in itself. Let alone going out on dates with other men. Let alone going to their homes. Any of these by themeslves is cheating. Forget inappropriate or unfaithful.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

jnj express said:


> Hey Tis---You are deluding yourself, if you think nothing physical happened with #2
> 
> She went to his house twice---that is not just to talk---talking is done over the phone, at work, at restaurants---they were in private---believe me they went physical


If I knew this for a fact... it would make what I feel is my only choice a lot easier. I could contact him directly... I wonder if he would cop to it??? He's some swinger guy that might just level with me... I wonder. 

Thank you for all of the posts... reading and taking everything into account. I do appreciate it, outside of family I don't really have much of a network of friends.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tisme said:


> If I knew this for a fact... it would make what I feel is my only choice a lot easier. I could contact him directly... I wonder if he would cop to it??? He's some swinger guy that might just level with me... I wonder.
> 
> Thank you for all of the posts... reading and taking everything into account. I do appreciate it, outside of family I don't really have much of a network of friends.


Many men would still not be sure, even if they had to pull their wife of of another guy while she was riding him.

Is it really ok for her to look for guys on a dating site, actually go on dates and then go to their homes. Is more proof of unfaithfulness really needed here?

Actually I am encouraging you to not drag yourself through the details. You know enough. She is a serial cheater.

Take care. You deserve better than this.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Get familiar with the term iceburg. That jagged piece of ice floating around in your marriage is likely the size of texas under the surface.


Look at Pit of my stomach's original thread. See his iceburg. Look at my original thread. I'm still finding iceburg. We've wrecked our Titanic thinking that sliver of ice we could see was all there was.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> We all feel your pain and understand.
> 
> Unfortuneately, none of that changes anything. It is what it is and it really really really SUCKS.


We feel it and understand because we have been / are where you are.



Shaggy said:


> She came home carrying a bag and wearing mesh panties after being over at #2s place fir a while, and you really think it isn't PA? Common really?


:iagree: Sorry, sir, but you are thick in the "smog" if you believe she didn't have those mesh panties on his floor at some point. Fog = Blindness of cheating spouses. Smog = Blindness of faithful spouses since we don't want to believe what we know our spouses are doing.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Tisme said:


> If I knew this for a fact... it would make what I feel is my only choice a lot easier.


Amazing, just amazing.

Ok, So ask him.

Why the f*ck would you think he would tell you the truth? and even if he did... what then?

He says they did, she says they didn't. Then you come back here mentally mastrabating about who to believe? or find a reason you need more proof?

YOU ARE TRYING VERY HARD NOT TO BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING. It is.

REALITY CINDERBLOCK: Your wife is a serial cheater, and an accomplished liar and manipulator. This will not disappear. She will continue to lie, and continue to cheat.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Tis, also realize you are up against a practiced liar who thinks you are clueless Seriously, she paraded down the street infront of you in the sexy panties she wore for her time with him, and you dud nothing ! She is convinced you have no clue. 

If you confront her see will lie, she will tell you that you are crazy, and she will get angry that you are controlling and don't trust her. So be prepared ahead of time when she uses each of these tactics. 

Bottom line it is never acceptable for a married woman to go over to visit another guys house alone like she is doing. she us clearly going for a booty call and you have been an accepting doormat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Check out Shamwow's very long thread, just near the end of the one on this section. He tested a pair of her panties that tested positive for semen. How long ago did she come home from lover-boy's in those mesh panties? Are they still laying around? 

Get a VAR. If you need proof, put a VAR in her car, near the computer if she spends a lot of time on it, or anywhere she may talk a lot. You will likely catch a conversation with lover-boy.

Get a keylogger for the computer. This will catch anything on there. If she has a smart-phone, there are apps you can put on there.

All of this really is a waste of time, money, and energy. The only thing you really need to listen to is your gut. I've spent a good bit of money, lots of time and energy, etc. on surveillance because I needed "proof". Well, all it ever did was confirm what my gut was screaming at me. I just didn't want to listen.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

OK, I should get out the panties and bag and confront her I suppose... honestly I wish I just knew if she did, but you guys are probably right the writing is all over the wall.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Sorry to be blunt with you. I am sorry you are here. Listen to these folks. I have a crystal ball. It shows your future few months of hell if you don't listen to the advise of the wise folks here. Here is what it looks like.

My original thread documenting my personal denial and subsequent hell

and the continuing saga starting at a point the affair was supposedly over

By the way, Pit, looking back at this I see you were the first poster to respond to my thread. Wow, that seems like a lifetime ago now.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

It's ironic... but there is a local lady that is quite athletic like myself that my wife is insanely jealous of. I think she is attracted to me, but I've kept the lady at an arm's distance because that's just what I do... we're hardly acquaintances yet my wife can't stand the sight of her.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Who diagnosed her with BPD? What traits does she supposedly have?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Tisme said:


> It's ironic... but there is a local lady that is quite athletic like myself that my wife is insanely jealous of. I think she is attracted to me, but I've kept the lady at an arm's distance because that's just what I do... we're hardly acquaintances yet my wife can't stand the sight of her.


That's called projection


she's a cheater so thinks you're capable of cheating


Do you play poker?

Guys who bluff too much have a tendency to make too many bad calls with medium strength hands because they think that people must be bluffing all the time. (since they do)

It's the same concept at play here


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Tisme said:


> OK, I should get out the panties and bag and confront her I suppose... honestly I wish I just knew if she did, but you guys are probably right the writing is all over the wall.


Tis, does she normally wear such items in her daily wardrobe ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Sorry you are going through this. Your wife checked out of your marriage long ago. She is LOOKING for men. It's not even an accident. Wake up. Now!

Keep acting nice, denying, hoping things are innocent. That will lead you to hell on earth, trust me. Your only chance to fix this is to put your foot down, right away. Don't listen to her claims nothing happened. They did. For certain.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

So, I just went back and reread where YOUR therapist is classifying your wife as BPD? Has your therapist ever spoken to her? BPD can NOT be diagnosed without direct interaction.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Sometimes a BS has to go down with WW. Its sad but sometimes the BS needs the consequence of inaction before he/she finally realizes that all the love in the world won't change a serial cheater.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Clearly you are deluding yourself about her not having sex. It is quite obvious especially with the Swinger guy. You have nothing to lose by contacting him. You should get tested for STD's. By the way, if the roles were reversed do you honestly think your wife would be so accepting as you have been?

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. Nobody and I mean mean nobody respects a doormat. The behavior of your wife shows that she has no respect for you and your marriage whatsoever. She feels she can have sex and flirt with other men because you will do nothing. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

bryanp said:


> Clearly you are deluding yourself about her not having sex. It is quite obvious especially with the Swinger guy. You have nothing to lose by contacting him. You should get tested for STD's. By the way, if the roles were reversed do you honestly think your wife would be so accepting as you have been?
> 
> No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. Nobody and I mean mean nobody respects a doormat. The behavior of your wife shows that she has no respect for you and your marriage whatsoever. She feels she can have sex and flirt with other men because you will do nothing. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


Never had an STD... would I know I had one by now... it's been since April. I asked her and she said if I told her nothing happened, she'd accept it as that. She might honestly believe that, but if they shoe truly were on her foot, I'm thinking she'd think otherwise. I asked her about her EA2 again and told her it was damn difficult to just believe it was a EA and not a PA. Honestly I think she has a naivity and maturity issue along with her flirty nature. 

Things have been different since I posted this and I'm not willing to accept her being a victim in this in any way shape or form. She hit me with "do you want to fix this" thing and I told her I did, I didn't have to remain home, I've got several places to go and plenty of people waiting to help me move my stuff out. 

I have a lot to think about... thank you for your opinions.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Why don't you just schedule a lie detector test for her? Ask about the PAs.

She is sticking with her EA story because you have so far partially accepted it. You have questioned it, but she has been able to keep you from doing more.

So do the test. Tell her it is her chance to prove herself. This going back and forth is wasting both of your lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Why don't you just schedule a lie detector test for her? Ask about the PAs.
> 
> She is sticking with her EA story because you have so far partially accepted it. You have questioned it, but she has been able to keep you from doing more.
> 
> ...


We can't afford it for one... paycheck to paycheck presently paying the bills, that's it. 

I do accept it for some reason, we talked about it again last night and I believe it wasn't a PA, in fact she did more sex chat/texting with EA1 and EA2 IMO. She said it "wouldn't lead to anything" there, part of her little fantasy/solution/whatever. 

Doesn't make things any easier that's for sure... I told her I was tired of piecing little things together for her... going to send her the BS Script so she can have some understanding of what I'm going through and I told her that she's got to get rid of phone contacts, e-mails, pictures of her "friend", etc. Got the "you're going through my phone" line and I just told her yes. 

She's not some poor little victim because I work 2nd shift because we have a profoundly handicapped child and I like to exercise regularly. I've been a devoted husband, help mate and father for 20 almost years only to have her betray me like some piece of garbage.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Went to counseling today... and I'm just caught in this limbo stage... I want to R just not sure if we can, I should even try, etc. After much reflection my commitment is my vow until death do us part with the exception of a PA. Was sort of hoping I could prove it to force my hand into a decision. Truly don't believe there was a PA... but the EA doesn't feel very good either. 

Trying not to rug sweep but I also don't want to hold this over head forever. Mind movies are a *****, texting is a trigger sometimes and my wife loves to text me now.. this was her primary communication with EA's. Up until recently I've only sent a handful of texts... IDK just having mostly good times with my wife but mind movies jump in and ruin things.. been waking up from a sound sleep at around 3AM the last two nights. 

Just don't know...


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Your not listening.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Your not listening.


Well I am... just not sure I'm ready to do what most of you are suggesting... and that's drop her ass like a bad habit.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tisme said:


> Went to counseling today... and I'm just caught in this limbo stage... I want to R just not sure if we can, I should even try, etc. After much reflection my commitment is my vow until death do us part with the exception of a PA. Was sort of hoping I could prove it to force my hand into a decision. Truly don't believe there was a PA... but the EA doesn't feel very good either.
> 
> Trying not to rug sweep but I also don't want to hold this over head forever. Mind movies are a *****, texting is a trigger sometimes and my wife loves to text me now.. this was her primary communication with EA's. Up until recently I've only sent a handful of texts... IDK just having mostly good times with my wife but mind movies jump in and ruin things.. been waking up from a sound sleep at around 3AM the last two nights.
> 
> Just don't know...


This is a PA. BTW EAs are very bad too.

What specific evidence are you needing to accept that this is a PA since you set that boundary and have no problems with her being involved in EAs? What boundaries do you guys have? 
Anything else goes, but IF you ever get definite proof of a PA you would not be ok with that?

Also are you ok with her continuing to date other men off the internet and go to their homes at night wearing mesh underwear? Or are there newer more strict boundaries?

Well, you could just stop looking for that evidence and let life take you on the ride. The mind movies are because of her affairs. They were not dealt with completely.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

OK. An EA is hell. My wife's affair was an EA for a long time before it went physical. I said many times during the course of this hell that an EA can be worse than a PA. An EA will most often lead to a PA. Then, they have both a strong emotional attachment and a physical attachment. 

In other words, stop worrying so much about the first letter. Concentrate on the second. It was an affair. 3 of them. She gave something to 3 other men that should have been only for you. If that is only time and attention, that time and attention should have been given to you. 

She was emotionally involved with these men. You admit they were EA's. I don't want to be too graphic, but not much makes a woman's certain area more moist than to be emotionally close. Then, she spent hours alone in his apartment. Dude, that first letter changed that night, if not much sooner. Either way, you need to treat an affair the same, regardless of the first letter.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tisme said:


> Well I am... just not sure I'm ready to do what most of you are suggesting... and that's drop her ass like a bad habit.


It just comes down to when you want to begin healing and start your new life. How much pain, anguish and sleep deprevation you feel you deserve to go through. 

You are just wanting to stay in denial and hope you wake up from a very bad dream. Understood. The problem is that there will not be any true R until you deal with this.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Mesh panties? Did someone mention mesh panties after coming from OM's apartment? Really? What kind of married woman does that?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Mesh panties? Did someone mention mesh panties after coming from OM's apartment? Really? What kind of married woman does that?


I did not see it in the original post. But it was talked about later on.



Shaggy said:


> She came home *carrying a bag and wearing mesh panties after being over at #2s place* fir a while, and you really think it isn't PA? Common really?





Tisme said:


> I wanna be as big of a Devil's advocate as I can be... she claims my exercise was like an affair. For instance I would have Thursdays off some weeks and I would go to swim practice that evening... I was to compete for a national championship and a world championship next year had the wheels not fallen off. *The night of the mesh panties was the night before a race I finished third after crashing my bike, banging up my knee. * Probably one of the worst days of my life, I crossed the finish line, found a place away from the crowd and just crumbled... tired coming in, emotionally drained, injuring myself and then emptying myself physically...


The kind of woman who would do that is also the kind of woman who would advertise for another man on the internet, go on four dates with him ( sonehow this guys was identified as a swinger ) and go to his home twice in the evening. See any red flags here?

He just wants proof there was a PA.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

HurtinginTN said:


> Check out Shamwow's very long thread, just near the end of the one on this section. He tested a pair of her panties that tested positive for semen. How long ago did she come home from lover-boy's in those mesh panties? Are they still laying around?





Tisme said:


> OK, I should get out the panties and bag and confront her I suppose... honestly I wish I just knew if she did, but you guys are probably right the writing is all over the wall.


Were the panties still laying around? Did you get them out before they were washed? Right there would likely be your proof that you seek.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

You know I am glad my boundaries are pretty strict these days. Dealing with loose boundaries seems like a great deal of effort with a steep downside. 

No doubt having boundaries that are too strict would have similar problems.

Maybe it is a matter of discussing, defining and agreeing to reasonable boundaries. Then if they are crossed you don't have to be sending panties to a lab. Ick. Mesh panties at that.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry you're going through this Tis and I understand not wanting to give up on 20 years. However, seriously consider how you want the next 20 years of your life to unfold.

Rug sweeping and not getting the full truth will not help your wife change or help you recover from the betrayal. It's a no win. It wasn't until my H finally confessed the extent of his affair (EA/PA) did I feel capable of rebuilding, but I need to feel he is being truthful with me now to move forward. No question about his affair is off limits, he'll answer even if it hurts me to hear.

I truly believe your wife is not disclosing everything to you. The affair with OM #2 sounds too suspicious. A guy she met off the internet dating site to hook up with and "talk"? Saying she didn't want notches in her bedpost was like throwing bait to any man wanting a challange and was most likely the type who responded. 

Regardless, you will always doubt her honesty. To move forward, you should assume the worst. Let's face it, once trust is destroyed you will never have it 100% again. There will always be that question in the back of your mind, so better to assume it was physical and go forward with that assumption. If your wife complains that she's being unjustly accused, it's her job to build up your trust in her again. Not by words but by actions.

Although it was horrific, when my H admitted the affair was physical, at least I finally felt like I was getting answers. The pieces fell into place when he admitted to an affair 10 years prior with a different co-worker. You'll know when you feel like you have the whole picture, not just a few pieces of the puzzle.

Good luck, it's awful that people can hurt someone they've shared their life with, but it happens time and time again.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Tis, update?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Shaggy... an update huh? I love my wife and want to spend the rest of my life with her... it is what I want. (pathetic?) She has softened up and I see glimpses of a different woman than the snarling demon that I shared a bed with for a month or so. She has shown remorse, apologized, said if she could go back in time she'd do things differently, etc. I truly am starting to believe EA2 was just that an EA... she's naive as hell, immature and although it does sound like a duck, truly don't believe it is a duck. Still not good and hurts like hell. 

But on the face of it... what the hell was she thinking... place ad for company, text guy for a week, meet four times over the course of a few weeks, end up at his place two nights sitting on his couch talking smack about me. To even think this sort of friend was OK... isn't OK. I know he did talk to her about me and outside of my "training" as she relayed it to him was "on my side", said she should go to counseling to fix her marriage, she had to communicate with me... in fact my wife says everyone seemed to be on my side outside of EA1. Maybe he (EA2) was poking her too while he counciled her, IDK. EA3 sort of apologized to me and cut ties with her when I broke up their little lunch date and commented to the effect of "it" wasn't as it appeared... she told him we were separated for one. 

I struggle day to day though... Sunday I did a bike ride while waiting for my daughter's practice and my mind ran through the comments and scenarios about EA2... I just happened to be in the city the guy lives in to trigger that one. My wife seems to realize my broken heart will take time and hopes to have "all" of me back. Just not sure what I need from her... for one it would be nice to be able to ask her about her EA's. I just feel so torn up and battered inside, some days I'm bouncing around happy next day I'd like to strangle her. I feel like there's so much I don't know, do I really need to know, etc. It's not that I don't trust in day to day stuff, but there is some worry about what happens a year, two years, etc. 

I for one am not holding onto comments anymore... she mentions her dumb little dog being great company... thought jumps in my mind that he wasn't such great company earlier this year... she likes to throw up in my face a mutual friend of ours in high school she swears I kissed... she's kidding right? Otherwise I'm done with her *****iness as well, I neither deserve it or want to deal with it. Where am I at... time will tell. Feel like it's really day to day sad to say... I should mention I hold marriage as a Christian thing, until death do us part although I have bastardized it a bit with the loop hole of a PA.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Tisme said:


> I should mention I hold marriage as a Christian thing, until death do us part although I have bastardized it a bit with the loop hole of a PA.



PA isn't a loophole. Jesus Christ himself said, "Except for adultery . . . "


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## lovestruckout (Jul 6, 2011)

Eeek. I didn't read this entire thread, so apologies if I'm misinformed...but my wife's three EAs turned out to be two full blown EA/PAs, and one EA that was likely a PA, but I decided I didn't want to interrogate anymore cause it didn't matter.

I too was a drippy mess at the get go after years of gas lighting, manipulation, and emotional abuse from my WW. Guess what? Three and a half months later, I realize there is so much opportunity out there it is insane. It's tough to discard seven years (more prior to marriage) of your life with someone, especially when kids are involved, and for that reason, I'm holding on to some hope that we'll figure things out down the road. But I'm working on myself at the moment, and boy does it feel good to have people say to you "is she crazy she did that to you? you are like the catch of a lifetime [her own friends saying that to me]).

Dig deep and you will find the strength to get through this. It may be with her if that is what you truly want, but realize you are capable of moving on alone - we all are, but it's tough to see that path when you are so broken. Time does heal. Good luck.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

lovestruckout said:


> Dig deep and you will find the strength to get through this. It may be with her if that is what you truly want, but realize you are capable of moving on alone - we all are, but it's tough to see that path when you are so broken. Time does heal. Good luck.


Thank you... told her I had questions about EA2 that I just had to get off my chest and she's throwing a fit. The nerve of me... I just want to get everything out on the table... beginning to think she's incapable of doing that and in the end I'll either have to bury or deal with it on my own... it sucks.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Tisme said:


> Thank you... told her I had questions about EA2 that I just had to get off my chest and she's throwing a fit. The nerve of me... I just want to get everything out on the table... beginning to think she's incapable of doing that and in the end I'll either have to bury or deal with it on my own... it sucks.


uh no...


you will never get true R if she won't show true remorse and own up to her affairs


you are dooming yourself and I implore you to listen to us


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

How long can you bear to be in limbo?


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## Mike188 (Dec 29, 2009)

Tisme,

I've been on this forum for two years (most of my threads have been ereased). I have read a LOT of stories similar to yours, but yours is by far the one closest to my own. I made every mistake a person could make in the beginning. I eventually got it together and accepted the truth and started manning up at the end, but by then it was too late. Oh well, I can see what a lying, manipulating, deceptive, greedy, selfish, self-absorbed attention ***** my wife really was. 

We went back and forth with her seeming to stop her inappropriate behavior but sure as hell here would come another "friend" that she would start calling and texting around the clock. If I had it to do over again I wold have handled it all different........or maybe it worked out for the best after all.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Tisme said:


> in the end I'll either have to bury or deal with it on my own... it sucks.


Might as well file for the divorce now instead of years later when you you can't even stand to look at her anymore. Never bury it and let it stew inside of you, the marriage will never work. If you need the answers you get the answers, end of discussion.


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## lovestruckout (Jul 6, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> Might as well file for the divorce now instead of years later when you you can't even stand to look at her anymore. Never bury it and let it stew inside of you, the marriage will never work. If you need the answers you get the answers, end of discussion.


Yup. Blow it the phuck up. Start from scratch. It was the only way with my WW as she was not going to stop until full exposure around town, to family, and to her work. It took a Nuke to get her to come to terms with her second life.

Now, we'll either start over together (the odds are stacked up against that right now), or apart, but united for the sake of the kids.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> How long can you bear to be in limbo?


I feel for you, brother. Limbo is pure hell. If she gets irritated when you have a question about EA2, it don't look good. She isn't fully committed or she would answer any and all questions honestly and openly.

Lordmayhem, you owe me a monitor. I hit mine twice trying to kill that little bug crawling around on it. :rofl:


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Well we had the discussion... surprisingly she answered all my questions and gave me the low down without jumping into all defensive mode. At least I feel informed for the first time since April and I can feel at ease with that at least. 

Tears on her part saying she knows she screwed up the marriage, etc. On the other hand... TFB, it was her stupid decision to do it to begin with... I could have done similar when she was with holding sex for many years. I digress.. 

IDK, my eyes are looking at our relationship as never before... actions will have to meet my expectations going forward. Many of you seem to think the odds are stacked in my favor, but I'm a bit of a risk taker... we will see.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Tisme said:


> Many of you seem to think the odds are *NOT* stacked in my favor, but I'm a bit of a risk taker... we will see.


I fixed your post, im sure you meant to put the NOT part in there because there is no one here or anywhere else that thinks the odds are in your favor. Maybe you, but your mind is bad.

Your a risk taker? lol. is that how this looks through your eyes?


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Your a risk taker? lol. is that how this looks through your eyes?


Your correction was dead on of course and my statement was more tongue in cheek sort of thing... in study yesterday of the bible verse and adultery/lust, it is a sin but also see forgiveness, etc. associated with it... going that route for now. 

The leash is pretty short though... I'm going to get back into my training and she will either learn to support her husband or not.


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## f1r3f1y3 (Dec 8, 2009)

This relationship cannot function without the truth on the table and her attitude clearly demonstrates she's not interested in giving you it. Your softly softly approach is not going to work.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Tisme said:


> in study yesterday of the bible verse and adultery/lust, it is a sin but also see forgiveness, etc. associated with it... going that route for now.


Which thread did this come from? Pit, didn't you say something similar at one point? I know I did. I know I quoted the Bible on the part where they took the woman caught in adultery to Jesus. He wrote in the sand and told the one without sin to cast the first stone. They all left, he sent her on her way and said to sin no more. I seriously doubt that woman ever hopped into bed with any man besides her husband for the rest of her life.

Forgiveness AFTER repentance. Sure, you can forgive the past and move on. Many couples do. IF the wayward spouse is remorseful, completely dedicated to reconciliation, etc. I'm sorry, but I just don't see that in this case. I know exactly where you are coming from. Go look at my first thread. I believe you are probably on about page 10. Many pages of hell coming your way, I'm afraid.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

I see many similarities between what you have said about your wife's actions and words and those of my stbxw. I am very pro-marriage. I just know what I did certainly didn't work. I do look back and think perhaps if I had been more firm from the start that things may have ended up differently. Maybe not. We'll never know. But that is the lens through which I look at your situation. It reminds me of where I was. What I am telling you is what I wish I would have done. I would read the "Just let them go" and the 180. Start moving on. She can't decide, so decide for her. Take yourself off the table.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Well we did have a truth session Tuesday evening, I asked her all the questions I had and she answered them all without jumping into ***** mode. Like I said for the first time in a long time I'm not wondering. She has moved into a new state of mind that I'm liking. Remorseful without "but" statements, she apologized for crying yesterday at the taper of our truth session that it hurt to relive those things herself... which I think is a good sign. I'd be more worried if it didn't... 

I believe she has decided and is coming around. Time will tell.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Well... we are in marriage counseling, but it isn't exactly giving me any glimmer of hope. Our counselor is saying stuff like there was something lacking in the marriage that made her seek something outside the marriage... I think our counselor senses my wife's "issues" but wants to approach it in a soft way. She gingerly suggests IC to her and picks up on Borderline traits my IC says my wife has and has suggested I need to be strong to hear my wife's issues... so we can get them out. My IC tells me most Borderline's run from counseling when they get cornered early on. 

The truth as I see it is that my wife is childish ***** that can't be a grown up when I can't be around. She is miserable from crap over the years she's held onto... she has mommy issues, molested when she was 13, is an adopted child that was pretty abused... etc. She needs a lot of help. 

My wife has clarity on things every now and then, but quickly falls back into a fog. She's also got this princess/diva mentality which I now squash like a bug. She's no more deserving on love and attention than me on a good day let alone during this crap. The gaslighting and blameshifting going on... holy **** is the fog thick!!!!! I even find myself buying into some of her crap... I must be losing my mind! 

I gotta tell you it doesn't look good and by some stroke of luck I've got a string of 6-days off next week and I'm going to visit a lawyer, real estate agent, look at apartments, etc. I've got three kids and there's no way in hell I'd leave them with that lazy/crazy *****. The mental games and abuses that I'm enduring right now are mind numbing and painful... I'm believing for a miracle, but I need to put some the 180 into effect for my own sanity. In fact I'm printing the 180 out to study and put into effect. 

This is truly the hardest things I've been through and I've got a hunch it might get worse.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Tisme said:


> This is truly the hardest things I've been through and I've got a hunch it might get worse.


I agree with you -- it will get worst before it get better. One step at a time and you'll get there.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Update... still married but getting ready to head out. My mind is much clearer these days and I'm shaking my head reading back where I was before. We've been in marriage counseling are both in personal counseling... my new therapists thinks my wife is more NPD than BPD... the whole not owning the affairs as being really wrong. 

We have an adult handicapped child that is heading for residential care in the next month. I think I will follow him out of the house. Sad about my two daughters.. 13 and 15, but I deserve better and I need to show them that! Sad thing is I think they already know it. Yeah, I've learned a lot since going through this nightmare and being married to a mentally ill person will make you crazy yourself!


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

I also found out about another one of her EAs, yeah she's sure in love with me, best friend, etc. :scratchhead: As someone stated earlier in this thread, that's probably not all either, or maybe it is. What an idiot I was! :banghead:


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Good luck and prayers for your family. What advise has your marriage counselor given you? What gender was your MC and was he/she any good?


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## FryFish (Sep 18, 2012)

Probably affairs from the very beginning... too bad you cant get your marriage annulled.


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Good luck and prayers for your family. What advise has your marriage counselor given you? What gender was your MC and was he/she any good?


Marriage counseling is weird, it really is! Our MC is a lady. Do some reading about marriage counseling with a mentally ill spouse... someone with BPD and/or NPD or leaning in that area are almost complete wastes of time. 

Some weeks we talk about how I don't do this or that... like me paying when we are picking up fast food. She needs to know where I'm at any time, what I'm doing, etc. When we talk about issues on her end, its just too much for her. You know we've been in marriage counseling for a while now and we haven't covered much ground which is par for the course. It usually goes like this.. my wife goes off on tangents... fine I'll try and work on things that bug her... we touch on the affairs, something I feel is an issue, it goes nowhere or it goes nuclear. 

On some level I feel really bad for my wife, but at the same time, I'm ready to move towards personal wellness. I put up with so much from her over the years and the affairs were a real shake up. My personal counselor is trying to slow me down and give it a bit more time. For years I took emotional and verbal abuse from a woman that professds to love me. 

Had a crazy night the other night, discussions with her are and have always been a bit odd. She starts screaming, logic gets twisted, starts cursing, starts calling me names.. I had to leave the house to go for a walk. Helps I understand the BPD/NPD mindset, but doesn't make it any less odd. She escalates and goes ballistic, then she left the house because I wouldn't engage with her... came back starting pushing and open handed striking me... I had to call the police. 

Almost a day later she's able to talk calmly and candidly... she's truly sorry, she knows she screwed up re: the affairs, she gets mad because of guilt when she sees that I'm maybe dealing with the affairs, she's working on issues in her personal counseling, she's thinking about going to see a sex therapist... our sex life has sucked for years. It sounds great, but I can almost tell you in the next few weeks there's going to be some sort of issue. 

I tell ya, this disengaging from a BPD/NPD spouse is weird, but predictable once you understand it. Thankful to have pulled my head out of the sand so to speak.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

After years dealing with it you need to fight hard the stinkin' thinkin' (partner's fog) you have beem developing thourgh the years:

Go here, the entire site is very interesting and useful:
Out of the fog

*Stinkin' Thinkin' - The Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking*

If you've been living for a long time with a person who suffers from a personality disorder, like many of us, you may have developed a very negative or pessimistic outlook on life. You may have developed a habit of interpreting problems as failures. Dr. David Burns calls this kind of negativity "Stinkin' Thinkin'"

_Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking_

Excerpt taken from The Feeling Good Handbook by David D. Burns, M.D.

1. All-or-nothing thinking - You see things in black-or-white categories. If a situation falls short of perfect, you see it as a total failure. When a young woman on a diet ate a spoonful of ice cream, she told herself, "I've blown my diet completely." This thought upset her so much that she gobbled down an entire quart of ice cream.

2. Over generalization - You see a single negative event, such as a romantic rejection or a career reversal, as a never-ending pattern of defeat by using words such as "always" or "never" when you think about it. A depressed salesman became terribly upset when he noticed bird dung on the window of his car. He told himself, "Just my luck! Birds are always crapping on my car!"

3. Mental Filter - You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors a beaker of water. Example: You receive many positive comments about your presentation to a group of associates at work, but one of them says something mildly critical. You obsess about his reaction for days and ignore all the positive feedback.

4. Discounting the positive - You reject positive experiences by insisting that they "don't count." If you do a good job, you may tell yourself that it wasn't good enough or that anyone could have done as well. Discounting the positives takes the joy out of life and makes you feel inadequate and unrewarded.

5. Jumping to conclusions - You interpret things negatively when there are no facts to support your conclusion.

Mind Reading : Without checking it out, you arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you.

Fortune-telling : You predict that things will turn out badly. Before a test you may tell yourself, "I'm really going to blow it. What if I flunk?" If you're depressed you may tell yourself, "I'll never get better."

6. Magnification - You exaggerate the importance of your problems and shortcomings, or you minimize the importance of your desirable qualities. This is also called the "binocular trick."

7. Emotional Reasoning - You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way things really are: "I feel terrified about going on airplanes. It must be very dangerous to fly." Or, "I feel guilty. I must be a rotten person." Or, "I feel angry. This proves that I'm being treated unfairly." Or, "I feel so inferior. This means I'm a second rate person." Or, "I feel hopeless. I must really be hopeless."

8. "Should" statements - You tell yourself that things should be the way you hoped or expected them to be. After playing a difficult piece on the piano, a gifted pianist told herself, "I shouldn't have made so many mistakes." This made her feel so disgusted that she quit practicing for several days. "Musts," "ought's" and "have to's" are similar offenders.

"Should statements" that are directed against yourself lead to guilt and frustration. Should statements that are directed against other people or the world in general, lead to anger and frustration: "He shouldn't be so stubborn and argumentative!"

Many people try to motivate themselves with should's and shouldn'ts, as if they were delinquents who had to be punished before they could be expected to do anything. "I shouldn't eat that doughnut." This usually doesn't work because all these should's and musts make you feel rebellious and you get the urge to do just the opposite. Dr. Albert Ellis has called this " must erbation." I call it the "shouldy" approach to life.

9. Labeling - Labeling is an extreme form of all-or-nothing thinking. Instead of saying "I made a mistake," you attach a negative label to yourself: "I'm a loser." You might also label yourself "a fool" or "a failure" or "a jerk." Labeling is quite irrational because you are not the same as what you do. Human beings exist, but "fools," "losers" and "jerks" do not. These labels are just useless abstractions that lead to anger, anxiety, frustration and low self-esteem.

You may also label others. When someone does something that rubs you the wrong way, you may tell yourself: "He's an S.O.B." Then you feel that the problem is with that person's "character" or "essence" instead of with their thinking or behavior. You see them as totally bad. This makes you feel hostile and hopeless about improving things and leaves very little room for constructive communication.

10. Personalization and Blame - Personalization comes when you hold yourself personally responsible for an event that isn't entirely under your control. When a woman received a note that her child was having difficulty in school, she told herself, "This shows what a bad mother I am," instead of trying to pinpoint the cause of the problem so that she could be helpful to her child. When another woman's husband beat her, she told herself, "If only I was better in bed, he wouldn't beat me." Personalization leads to guilt, shame and feelings of inadequacy.

Some people do the opposite. They blame other people or their circumstances for their problems, and they overlook ways they might be contributing to the problem: "The reason my marriage is so lousy is because my spouse is totally unreasonable." Blame usually doesn't work very well because other people will resent being scapegoated and they will just toss the blame right back in your lap. It's like the game of hot potato--no one wants to get stuck with it.

_Ten Ways to Untwist Your Thinking_
Excerpt taken from The Feeling Good Handbook by David D. Burns, M.D.

1. Identify The Distortion: Write down your negative thoughts so you can see which of the ten cognitive distortions you're involved in. This will make it easier to think about the problem in a more positive and realistic way.

2. Examine The Evidence: Instead of assuming that your negative thought is true, examine the actual evidence for it. For example, if you feel that you never do anything right, you could list several things you have done successfully.

3. The Double-Standard Method: Instead of putting yourself down in a harsh, condemning way, talk to yourself in the same compassionate way you would talk to a friend with a similar problem.

4. The Experimental Technique: Do an experiment to test the validity of your negative thought. For example, if during an episode of panic, you become terrified that you're about to die of a heart attack, you could jog or run up and down several flights of stairs. This will prove that your heart is healthy and strong.

5. Thinking In Shades Of Gray: Although this method may sound drab, the effects can be illuminating. Instead of thinking about your problems in all-or-nothing extremes, evaluate things on a scale of 0 to 100. When things don't work out as well as you hoped, think about the experience as a partial success rather than a complete failure. See what you can learn from the situation.

6. The Survey Method: Ask people questions to find out if your thoughts and attitudes are realistic. For example, if you feel that public speaking anxiety is abnormal and shameful, ask several friends if they ever felt nervous before they gave a talk.

7. Define Terms: When you label yourself 'inferior' or 'a fool' or 'a loser,' ask, "What is the definition of 'a fool'?" You will feel better when you realize that there is no such thing as 'a fool' or 'a loser.'

8. The Semantic Method: Simply substitute language that is less colorful and emotionally loaded. This method is helpful for 'should statements.' Instead of telling yourself, "I shouldn't have made that mistake," you can say, "It would be better if I hadn't made that mistake."

9. Re-attribution: Instead of automatically assuming that you are "bad" and blaming yourself entirely for a problem, think about the many factors that may have contributed to it. Focus on solving the problem instead of using up all your energy blaming yourself and feeling guilty.

10. Cost-Benefit Analysis: List the advantages and disadvantages of a feeling (like getting angry when your plane is late), a negative thought (like "No matter how hard I try, I always screw up"), or a behavior pattern (like overeating and lying around in bed when you're depressed). You can also use the cost benefit analysis to modify a self-defeating belief such as, "I must always try to be perfect."

Source
Out of the FOG - Stinkin' Thinkin' - 10 Forms of Twisted Tinking


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## Tisme (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks Acabado... my thinking doesn't line up with that thankfully, most of that sort of stuff is my wife and stuff she's working on in her counseling. 

Figuring out this whole PD thing has been a real life saver for me. At certain points of my life and recently I wondered if I was insane, went through bouts with depression, etc.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

If this is you wife,I would really hate to see your enemy! Run!


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