# Need help decoding wife's actions and words



## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

My marriage of 21 years, 26 years together starting on our first date, is clearly, admittedly, suffering from my wive's OCD and depression. I know I posted a similar message somewhere on the web, but that is no help, can't find it or the responses.

I'm asking for help understanding and deciding what to do, though I think the answer is self evident.

I'm 61, male, dealing with a chronic disease that makes walking difficult, may totally disable me tomorrow or I may have 20+ years with minimal change. I have far too many reasons to know life is short, our days must be enjoyed. 

Despite a weak left leg, other parts work well to very well.

My wife spends long days at work, coming home reluctantly three nights a week, staying past 10 two or three. Despite my requests to spend more time with her, she chats most nights and weekends with her mom, often from 9 past 11. Should I name Verizon as a co-respondent?

We live in a long ranch house, my kids grown, living on the other, more enjoyable coast in two wonderful cities. After dinner I stay in the kitchen or move to the family room, she moves to her home office/dressing room or the dining room, at desks surrounded by things, the floors covered with boxes and bags, difficult for me to get through. She is on her computer or phone all the time. 

When I call her at work she will very reluctantly give me 90% of her attention, usually 10%, she can't multi-task to save her life, her email far more interesting than me.

Our contact during the days and evenings she's home is very limited. Sex (caresses and BJ, I never before wanted to masturbate to my orgasm with a lover) is at most once a week, usually less, intercourse never in the last few years. She used to love foreplay and penetration, now doesn't want either in any fashion, pleasure we enjoyed to the point I wondered if our distant neighbors were bothered, I loved getting her aroused to the point where she had orgasm after orgasm her throat sore the next day.

This week she's home on "vacation", spends all day after waking answering emails and voicemail or watching House Hunters, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow, wakes at 1PM on a good day, goes to bed between 3 and 5. I consistently fall asleep at 11:30, wake around 4:30 +/-, leaving the bed for my favorite chair where I might doze till 6 or 7.

We have very different plans for the future, I've been cautious and lucky, saved a few dollars, we have about 50% home equity, a beautiful house that is as close to new as a 40 year old house can be - a beautiful, large, bright new kitchen, large main bathroom (12 * 12) with walk in 5' * 5' shower, new siding, roof, windows, doors &c - the key point is that the house has "universal accessibility", I use a wheel chair and could stay in it all day, go out to my garden, get to my car, check the mail, take out trash. Fortunately I can still walk short distances and am getting stronger. In the last years I've travelled to SF, NY, & Seattle regularly and the Caribbean twice, gate checking a three wheel scooter.

In this last week long talks with my wise little sister have caused me to forgo my anger and court my wife. I think I have, I'm doing more than usual around the house, considerably more than the 50 - 60% I've done for many years. Real house cleaning is taken care of by 2 or 3 women who show up for a half day every other week.

Over the last month or two I've become much more forthright and explicit, telling her we are not connecting, she says she'll try, does so for a few days, then forgets.

Despite this, despite the death of a good friend, my spirits are off the top of the chart. I want to love my wife, and be loved in return. I have not succeeded  - It isn't has been returned in a way I recognize these past years, she said she wants to see a counsellor, change her meds, do this, do that when I found a APRN, LMFT with a Ph.d in Pharmacology who met her needs, she met once, deeming it sufficient.

Neither of us would shop on 5th Avenue unless we are buying a pretzel or toasted chestnuts, we're more Target, Amazon & eBay shoppers than Bloomingdale's.

We live in CT and have kept our money separate from the very beginning, have shared expense on a nominal 70/30 split, but it is actually closer 75/25 or 80/20. Her money has never gone to support my children in any way, shape or fashion, she is likely to have a significant inheritance in the not so distant future. I don't want any part of it, though I wouldn't mind if she paid a larger share of our household and dining out expenses.

She wants to stay here, a boring CT suburb, work and care for her 80+ yo parents, I've stayed till now because I wanted her happy, then because I knew I couldn't change jobs. Staying with my employer paid off although I was laid off almost a full year ago.

Now that I'm retired, I want to live in a city, in particular SF. I want to be there because it offers so much to a guy with time and a couple of dollars - classical music, museums, galleries, people watching, food, wine.

I was very angry at my wife last week, I've been ignored so long I was looking with longing at dating sites. Just looked for women 40 to 60 who say they want love and passion in their lives, it was not difficult to find more than I could ever meet, at least a few would have responded.

I will not start an EA or PA as long as we share a bed, even though her sleep schedule is such that this week I'm getting up as she comes to bed -- she tells me I should find a girlfriend here to resolve my pretty simple yet intense sexual frustration. I am confused enough, finding a GF isn't fair to me or a potential GF.

She tells me she loves me, says "you are my rock, the most important person in my world". If this is the case why does she spend all our pre bedtime hours talking to her lonely mom? Comes into our bed 5 days a week long after I'm asleep? Doesn't want to go out except with her mom to chick flicks or female centric theater?

The conflicts between words and actions so obvious, I see what I need to do, yet I'd appreciate advice and questions I can focus on. I will see my counsellor this Saturday, he will finally be back from vacation.

I've been writing a lot this past week, finding as I write I better understand myself and her. 

I am no longer exceedingly scared by divorce, I went through one in '84 that cost so much emotionally and financially that another would hurt, it wouldn't destroy me, my children are from my first marriage, now adults with strong love going both ways, the youngest turned 36 this month and lives in SF, wants me to live nearby because he knows I would like the location.

I think I know what to do, I will check out love busters, I'm not sure I want this shell of a marriage to continue as I don't know if she can ever get out of her tiny world.:scratchhead:

She acts as if I'm her father, wants my approval, wants me to decide details for her, behaves the way (remote, leave him alone) he wanted her to do when she was a child, I don't want a third child.

FYI, I first put this in the relationships and addiction forum, but moved it here after clarifying it.

Mark


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

The fact that she seems comfortable with you having a girlfriend tells me that she doesn't have much emotionally invested in the relationship anymore. There is no way I would ever tell my boyfriend it would be ok for him to find someone else to meet any of his needs; that's my job, and if I'm not doing my job, then he needs to tell me and I'll step it up. 

It sounds as though you have tried talking to her, but I would give it one more shot. Talk to her and maybe have a discussion like you did (or I assume you did, anyway) before you got together/got married, and find out exactly what you two are expecting out of the relationship. If your expectations are drastically mismatched, then you can decide if it's something you want to learn to live with or if ending things is the way to go. Sometimes it's also a matter of one person thinking that the other person expects certain things and feels it's unreasonable. Maybe she has somehow gotten the wrong impression that you expect more than you actually do, and is trying to avoid meeting those expectations, and is therefore avoiding you. 

Other than that, I'm really not sure what advice to give you.


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## puffs31 (Aug 12, 2010)

Sounds like you have been a wonderful husband to her, even not letting your physical limitations get in the way of your sex life, loving her through her depression and OCD. Thats great. But its not getting you any of the things you need. You should be able to have what you want but it sounds like you aren't even on the same page. And since you said shes taking care of her elderky parents, I don't think she can leave to do what you want. It really doesn't sound like shes interested in being married at all. Like shes just avoiding you at all cost and that would make anyone feel the way you do.

If you cant take it anymore, get out. Seems like you've tried your best to cater to her, improve your marriage, understand her mental disorders. But sometimes there is nothing more you can do.

Yes, I think you've always known the answer to your own question. So follow that instinct. Take care of you now. Get the love you deserve.
Hang in there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Puffs31,

Thanks for your post, I find it supportive.

Turnera,

I will google it and try to read it or buy tonight. 

Thanks.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*Interesting discussion, I'm moving*

Just had an interesting discussion with my wife, we spoke freely. We spoke about her depression, complete lack of interest in sex, mutual fondness, lack of passion.

She definitely wants to stay in CT near her mother, she said very explicitly I should find companions in SF, even if it means the end of our marriage, she is very aware it might happen, is OK with it. I've been directed to practice safe sex, at least I might have sex sooner or later.

Don't know when I'm going, will probably keep this up to date.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

I have to say, that sounds to me like a roundabout way of asking for a divorce. She's telling you to find companions, and is ok with the knowledge it might end the marriage. It sounds to me like she wants out but wants you to be the one to do it. Good luck with your move; I hope you enjoy your new city!


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*depression taking its toll*

ATG,

I think you are right. Anytime a spouse is saying this, the marriage is near death, only the judge's signature is missing to declare it official. Thanks for your good wishes.

With depression that hasn't been cleared up by several meds, OCD, probably ADHD, libido turned off, affection for me, I think she is saying something close to "I'm not happy, I'm not being a good wife, not meeting my commitments, you're not happy, but we both know you can be. Try SF, try dating, find a lover, then see where we are - I understand".

After our talk we were both relieved that we had cleared the air, our issues have multiplied these last few years, now we can be friendly room mates for a while.

Our discussions and thoughts have been made all too aware of life's fragility - 10 days ago we attended a friend's memorial service, yesterday a friend called to say his wife had an intestinal blockage, she had been operated on, the tumor is malignant". This after years of surgeries and aggressive chemotherapy. I've lost too many of my few friends since I was 17, the tide is going out.

I'm reminded of a line from TS Eliot's "The Hollow Men" - "This is the way the world ends, not with a bang, but with a whimper".

What do you think?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think if you try something like Plan A from marriagebuilders.com and she still doesn't come around, you owe it to yourself to move on and find a woman who WILL love and respect you.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*More thoughts, response to Turnera*



turnera said:


> I think if you try something like Plan A from marriagebuilders.com and she still doesn't come around, you owe it to yourself to move on and find a woman who WILL love and respect you.


Hi Turnera,

I just got back from marriagebuilders.com. Alas, I don't think plan A or B will help us, at this point I don't know whether I'm the betrayed or betraying spouse. Betrayed because she now prefers her mother and her job to me, betraying because I'm ready to jump ship.

I looked at lovebusters prior to explaining my needs, she knows them all too well but can't get out of the deep hole she is in. 

The key issue she sees even better than me is her depression has become too intense, a poorly managed withdrawal from Paxil has exacerbated her low spirits. 

My issues have been brought to the surface since I started taking a relatively new drug to help my walking. Simply put it affects the CNS by making nerves more conductive in both directions, movement signals go down my leg better, I feel touches more intensely. The drug raised my spirits, I feel the world will not end if I explain my wants and ask after years of their not being met, they need to be met. Its not as if I'm asking for anything out of "normal" bounds - whatever normal is, I don't want bondage, sadism, three ways, just mostly good old M-F relations that were mutually enjoyable until a few years back. Hugs, kisses, intercourse, some spontaneity, and wanting to bring her pleasure as well.

This isn't happening, she is disappointed, feels guilty she can no longer meet my needs, perhaps too many years of anti-depressants have gotten to her, her libido dead, sleep consuming her life.

(For scary reading take a look at wikipedia and Paxil, especially the section on withdrawal, other SSRI's may be similar)

She has withdrawn so much emotionally and physically, that I, these days so much in touch with my feelings I bleed them at a light touch, is pouring out feelings on this board to people I will never know. I'm writing a lot, introspecting, crying with tears of joy and sorrow. I'm crying on my little and big sisters' shoulders so much I think they should find old diapers and pin them to their blouses' shoulders.

Meanwhile too many friends grow older and sicker, and others die too young.

Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the days of Awe we Jews have celebrated for thousands of years, are soon here, a New Year, a time of reflection, I will stand before G-d asking to be inscribed and sealed in the book of life. I'm crying again, tears mostly of joy. 

I will move on in the next few months and search for the love I need and want, I don't see my poor wife doing better in the next year or more, I don't want to live every day hoping, only to have hope batted away.

Comments always welcomed.

Mark


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, I wish you well, then.

fyi, the Plan A isn't always done for HER. It helps YOU become a better person, because it allows you to expand yourself to the people around you, so you aren't so self-consumed. It lets you look at the world through their eyes, and see what you look like to them. And, if you're trying to, to please them better. So in the end, you're a better person. And will be, for the next woman you meet.

It sounds like your wife will never improve without some serious counseling, as in treatment facility while she puts life on hold. Maybe this will get her to do it. You never know.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I feel that if you know she is depressed and trying to seek treatment that you owe it to her to stick it out even if she appears to not want to now. Isn't it possible that she needs you more than ever but doesn't recognize it? I also don't think it's crazy of her to want to stay by her older parents. She most likely feels an obligation to do this. I know I would. I would suggest trying to connect with her on her level, offering to do something she wants to do and telling her you could never leave her when she's going through such a hard time rather than telling her you want other women because she won't put out.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*An interesting couple of days - comments?*

To call Wed, Thu, Fri, and Sat interesting is akin to saying a hydrogen bomb is explosive.

There have been difficulties and successes within marriage and other parts of my life, though I'm pleased that my 30+ yo children are doing great, the boys sharing a wonderful trip, a birthday present from one.

Aside: If you and your spouse have libidos and needs that are not in sync, please get a copy of Michelle Wiener Davis' "The Sex Starved Marriage". Read it, give a copy to your spouse. You will think MWD is reading your minds. I wish I read it several years back, so does my wife, we wouldn't be here had we read it.

On the good news front - recalcitrant contractors are going to finish the last .1% of their tasks, small, but annoying tasks.

A insurance claim is FINALLY moving forward, perhaps in the right direction if my smiling representative working on his and my behalf is a clue.

My wife finally received and started using an Rx vaginal cream, she is much more comfortable, I'll skip details.

We had a very pleasant Saturday afternoon, a long talk afterwards. She insists that she isn't rejecting me, based on words and actions, I might agree, she is well aware that years of Paxil zeroed her libido, withdrawing from it turned her into a snippy, unhappy b****, slowly a different anti-d in a slow release form is bringing back the pre-menopause woman I met many years ago.

Thanks to a very new friend, I met with a wonderful lawyer here in CT. The attorney is strongly in favor of divorce mediation, she is very bright, very empathic, a superb listener and let me ramble and, as she told me when I called asking for an appointment and outlining the issues, I will find the outcome much easier to deal with than I expected.

As my wife's spirits improve and a very missed level of mutual enjoyment returns, she is saying she wants me to be happy, has been aware our house is located in a non-optimal location, she loves SF as much as I do, but she doesn't want to move and have to get rid of 100s of cubic feet of things. This is a major restatement of "I want to be here for my parents". What is truth? I don't know, probably some of each.

I will ask her if she really wants to be house poor and have her hoarding mother or OCD dad take up residence, perhaps adding her other parent at some time. As her parents when together radiate anger and misery at a rate that could require a 911 call ....

The drug that is helping me walk better still amps up my memory and emotions, a few segments on a news show Friday had me crying with joy, a few words from my wife Thursday afternoon had me angrier than I've ever been, but I was already VERY upset by a third party to my insurance claim, and was driving to her office pretty angry already. I believe I resolved a major misunderstanding and will be getting the report and records I need.

I lean toward getting a divorce, and am waiting for a good time to raise it the subject. Way too much is going on, too much uncertainty for me to know where West is, let alone answers to important questions.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: An interesting couple of days - comments?*

Mark,
Seems obvious that your W does NOT want a divorce. And that makes this a perfect time for you to tell HER what your conditions for staying married are. I will try to finish her earlier statement to you - from above:

"I want you to be happy" - I will finish it with "but I am not willing to make much/any effort towards that end"

It sounds like her opinion on that is changing fairly fast. And that is great. But YOU don't have to agree to be house poor because the woman who was a totally checked out W now wants to keep two residences. By the way - some spouses use the dual residences to keep extracting money from their partners without having to live with them. NOT saying that is the case here. I am saying there is NO way I would take on added financial strain AND give a long term checked out spouse an "informal" way to continue ignoring me if I were in your shoes. And of course it will never be said that way. It will all come under the guise of "but my parents need me - and you hate being around them - so you just stay in SF and I will go home for a couple weeks. And then something comes up and it is 3 or 4 or 5 weeks. 

Maybe I am reading your situation wrong - just be careful. 





Mark48 said:


> To call Wed, Thu, Fri, and Sat interesting is akin to saying a hydrogen bomb is explosive.
> 
> There have been difficulties and successes within marriage and other parts of my life, though I'm pleased that my 30+ yo children are doing great, the boys sharing a wonderful trip, a birthday present from one.
> 
> ...


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi Mem,

Thanks for responding, you make several interesting points, she'd have the best of both worlds, a beautiful house in CT, my apt in SF. She gets lots of time off, usually loses some because she enjoys her job.

If she's going back and forth, taking unpaid leave because of me, I'm not going to feel free to start any kind of relationship other than a date here and a date there. Not what I want!

I met with an excellent lawyer on Friday afternoon, she thinks I should ask W to meet with her and start mediation. I thought I would raise this issue this evening, but W has pleasantly surprised me two days in a row.

For those who just picked up on this thread, she was taking Paxil for years, recently cut down on it. Paxil is one of the most effective ways to kill libido, it was effective for her depression. She recently started Oleptero which is a timed release version of trazodone, according to the prescriber it may increase libido, if this weekend is an example, the Rx is helping her spirits and libido.

I received a Ikea catalog this weekend and was looking at it on the back porch while she was on her PC, and said, "look at this, you can shop for everything". She loves to shop, especially at lower price points, but really hates the thought of saying goodbye to 25+ years of accumulation, much of which should be dumped, very little aside from souvenirs of trips (which we'd have room for) is hard to replace.

I have to admit that this weekend with her in good spirits and a positive libido has reminded me of how much I enjoy and love her. We talked, we laughed, we had fun. I'm going to hold off proceeding.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree.


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## k.m (May 18, 2009)

Mark -

Just had to comment -- your original post made me cry. I am your wife. With the exception of no diagnosed depression or depression meds on my part, and the fact that there are emotional abuse and anger issues on my husband's part -- I am behaving exactly as she is. Except that I don't want my husband to get a GF or leave (at least, I don't think I do).

But I digress. What made me cry was that I realize that, despite his past abuse of me, I think he now wants what you want. He is not as expressive as you, so it took a knock-down-drag-out to realize that he still gives a sh*t, but I let the crap over the years get to me and withdrew just as your wife has.

I hope there is no unexpressed resentment on her part toward you, as there has been in my relationship. If there is, she will continue to forget that she wants things to improve, and will continue to be angry over past offenses. I am not saying this because I believe that, in your case, this may be true -- I'm saying it as a caution, because it is SO much a hindrance in the repair of my own marriage. It's a hard one to admit, because it brings up the geyser of anger and hurt.

I hope she can come out of her comfort zone enough to see that, perhaps, there's a more satisfying comfort zone in a life with you. I wish my husband had it as together as you sound like you do - maybe a sincere expression of love from him, sustained over time, would be enough to get me to break MY bad habits and drop my defenses against him.

Good luck to you. I hope you can repair and improve your relationship.

km


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi km,

I just sent a back channel message. Thanks for your kind words, good luck.

Mark


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch, so glad that your wife and you had a great weekend. I do hope you will try to work it out. I also think you should be honest with her and give her a chance to work on what you need. Perhaps if she knew how you felt and to what extent you're willing to take it, she'd be more motivated to change her behaviors and seek treatment/help as well as reclaim her life from her own parents.


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