# Men, the game has changed.



## poida

Hi Guys, I just wanted to brain dump the culmination of my last year of experiences with women after being cheated on by my wife of 8 years.

It saddens me to say this, but I have thought about it a lot and I have come to the conclusion that society has come to a point in history where the value that many women (OK, and men) put in a long term marriage has dwindled to the point of being a joke. 

Now, this hasn't happened overnight, and it certainly has been driven by both sides of society, but the result is a society where women are more independent and men are more effeminate. It's a fact.

The real irony is that women who claim they want a more sensitive man, a man who is loyal (won't cheat), who gives his woman complete freedom is exactly the same man that most women consider to be WEAK and POWERLESS and actually attracted to them physically and mentally.

It has taken me a year separated from my wife to realise and accept that the power I once thought I had in my relationship was an illusion (allowed by my wife) and that the feminist, overprotective mother I was brought up by has ultimately prepared me for failure in that relationship, and with a good portion of modern dominant women.

So men. What are our options?

1. Harden up.
I hear this a lot, and it usually comes from men who have had the benefit of a balanced upbringing. Perhaps an upbringing with a father who was manly and emotionally present, and a mother who was submissive in nature. Throw in a few boisterous brothers and hey presto, a well balanced man. 

The reality is though that this is rarely the case in my opinion, and that life long conditioning is unable to be changed quickly or probably at all.

SO, what to do for the men out there who are not "hard" (which is now the majority of men in my opinion).

Well, we either find a very rare woman from the old world, who still holds traditional values, who loves to cook for her man, yearns to be a mother and holds a lifelong marriage at the pinnacle of her belief system...

OR

We can join the hoard of single men (of all ages) who simply accept they want a casual "good looking" girlfriend and accept they will miss out on the feelings associated with a long term relationship.

I am now dating a woman from the old world with a heart of gold, but is average looking. I have come to accept that the woman I desire with a great body, gorgeous face and also all the values that we so desire simply no longer exists in today's society. I have been on enough dates to see it. It is a unicorn, and extremely rare to say the least.

Having been married to a "hot girl" who cheated on me, this leaves me in a difficult place (as a primal male). Do I enjoy the company of a wonderful woman and accept the stress associated with looking sideways at other women the rest of my life, OR continue to date hot women and get hurt (or worse still, get married and f*cked over again).

Are either options ideal? No, Not in my opinion.

But, this is the new game. Things have moved on.


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## RandomDude

> Well, we either find a very rare woman from the old world, who still holds traditional values, who loves to cook for her man, yearns to be a mother and holds a lifelong marriage at the pinnacle of her belief system...


Not so rare, can always import from Asia. Though the real traditional ones would only accept those from a similar family-orientated and traditional culture, the rest are already "modernised" and are mentally no different from your average modern woman in western countries. Others just don't care and simply desire you for your citizenship/passport.

Asia isn't the only place with traditional women however, many Europeans also continue their various traditions and from my experience, rather classier then the Anglo-Saxon women I've met (no offense to any, its just from my limited personal experience). My ex wife although she had adopted many customs of the Anglo Saxon culture in which we live, continued to upkeep the ancestral values from both her lineages in Europe and Asia. My first was also of European lineage. Anyways, I've never had a relationship with a woman whose culture is rooted in the Anglosphere, not to mention I'm of a different race in which I found social acceptance much less compared to women from the Eurosphere who had little prejudice.

There's alot of women in this world, and if you are in America I'm sure your community is multicultural enough to provide you with more options. Unless you live in rural regions in which case I would then say, "well, good luck"


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## dajam

Well, I have been advised by some friend that to get a "girl" I would have to become a prick.. Although she always falls for these "pricks"... She is till single and shopping like a mofo on the dating sights.. Hypergamy at its finest. Always trying to upgrade... She is awesome looking too, no real value in long term relationships.. Looks first then personality and integrity .. I guess a modern woman.. 

I do know a few women with old school values but they are few and far between, educated, and good... They use their brain instead of the "cavewoman" mentality I see so often now... 

The game has changed.. However out of all the choices in the world I know I will find a "good" girl... Although I am not worried about it... They do exist just have to look in the right places...


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## RandomDude

Exactly 

Glad to see a much more positive tone in your reply

As for being a prick, meh, just don't be a doormat, respect yourself and your own boundaries and you're set.


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## SpinDaddy

poida said:


> . . . .I am now dating a woman from the old world with a heart of gold, but is average looking. I have come to accept that the woman I desire with a great body, gorgeous face and also all the values that we so desire simply no longer exists in today's society. I have been on enough dates to see it. It is a unicorn, and extremely rare to say the least.
> 
> Having been married to a "hot girl" who cheated on me, this leaves me in a difficult place (as a primal male). Do I enjoy the company of a wonderful woman and accept the stress associated with looking sideways at other women the rest of my life, OR continue to date hot women and get hurt (or worse still, get married and f*cked over again).
> 
> Are either options ideal? No, Not in my opinion.
> 
> But, this is the new game. Things have moved on.


*
Howdy Poida,*

Game’s not new. Have a listen . . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKzacHbsBJM

Advice was as sage 50-years ago as it is today!


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## CuddleBug

My wifee, Mrs.CuddleBug, was raised by an atheist father and god fearing mother.

She is shy, conservative and not a party girl.

Over the 15 years of being married, she is starting to come out of her shell, lost weight, new clothes, hair styles, braces have fixed her teeth and her sex drive went from 1x month to 2 - 3x week.

Mrs.CuddleBug is very independent and when we got married, wanted both our last names on everything. That is the only time I said, no, we are using my last name and that is what we do.

But I am modern, so we both have our own bank accounts and credit cards, all joint spousal. She has full access to my line of credit and we have our own cars.

Monthly expenses are 50 / 50 based on our income levels.

We never fight about money and can one of us go out.

I am not a Mr.Nice guy and I do have a bit of a short temper.

I lead our household and get things setup and done and she likes this and assists me.

If Mrs.CuddleBug wants to go out, sister, girlfriends, etc. I totally trust her and tell her to have a great time and not to call or text me. Enjoy yourself.

All this has kept Mrs.CuddleBug happy in our 15+ year marriage.

She couldn't care less about manism, feminism or anything like that.

She wanted a good man, marriage and someone with her for life and that is what she got, me.

Her sister and friends are similar to my wifee.

My rule is, the hotter they are, the more trouble they are. So unless you are hot, counter balance her, being hot or wealthy, don't waste your time on a hottie. Get a realistic woman, not a hottie, she could loose some weight and is a hard working and educated woman. Weight comes and goes but the education and personalities are more important. I found Mrs.CuddleBug at a wedding and not a bar, pub or party.

My impression, are women today are just as aggressive as men sexually and having fun, which I think is about time.


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## RandomDude

> I found Mrs.CuddleBug at a wedding and not a bar, pub or party.


I knew it, you're a wedding crasher! Shame shame! 

lol


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## CuddleBug

SpinDaddy said:


> *
> Howdy Poida,*
> 
> Game’s not new. Have a listen . . . .
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKzacHbsBJM
> 
> Advice was as sage 50-years ago as it is today!




I remember that song when I was a kid and I've used that advice to this day.......married 15+ years now.....


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## Catherine602

But where was your father while you were growing up?


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## CuddleBug

And girls at the wedding that were single and in a relationship were dancing with me, flirting and even kissing me......but Mrs.CuddleBug was sitting on a chair alone. So I sat beside her, talked, called her after the wedding, her friend was jealous and deleted my message.....Fate has it, I called again, she answered and from that point, everything is history. If she wouldn't of answered, I wouldn't be with Mrs.CuddleBug today.


I'd say, ladies today are equals to men, sex, going out, party, work, independent, which is a good thing because they are 50 / 50 in the relationship and marriage.

Most ladies would like a good man, married, long term, great sex, 50 / 50, and have the option to have kids or not.

But I would think ladies don't just want to party and sex their lives away......cheating on their men. No. If she is HD and he is more average or LD, she might get her sex and needs met elsewhere......same goes for the guys. Is he is HD and she is average or LD, he might go elsewhere for his sex and needs.


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## ConanHub

I always look for character in someone.

There are pretty people with character and not so pretty with none.

So look for character. Mrs. Conan had character and that is what drew me. She was cute but not a model, which I have dated, and she was in killer shape and still is.

Honestly, she could have been less than cute and still captured me.

Her love, strength and devotion are the traits that drew me.

I have met very beautiful women with character as well. Unfortunately, it was when I was younger and when I had no character.

I broke some hearts back then.


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## RClawson

Despite the sweeping generalizations I believe the OP to be correct. The paradigm shift is well under way and will never be rolled back. I do believe there are exceptional women out there but you have to put yourself in places and among the right people to find them.


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## EleGirl

CuddleBug said:


> I remember that song when I was a kid and I've used that advice to this day.......married 15+ years now.....


HUH? you married an ugly woman?


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## nuclearnightmare

ConanHub said:


> *I always look for character in someone.
> 
> There are pretty people with character and not so pretty with none.
> 
> So look for character. Mrs. Conan had character and that is what drew me. She was cute but not a model, which I have dated, and she was in killer shape and still is.
> 
> Honestly, she could have been less than cute and still captured me.
> 
> Her love, strength and devotion are the traits that drew me.*
> I have met very beautiful women with character as well. Unfortunately, it was when I was younger and when I had no character.
> 
> I broke some hearts back then.



:iagree: :iagree:

woahhh! very good post. bolded part especially


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## jorgegene

i ran into a dude i knew after not seeing him for about a year and a half. said he had moved to southeast asian island. he claimed that he found a local wife and that men are king there. it is the custom (so he says) that you marry a native wife and that it is understood you have girlfriends on the side. He says he has two girlfriends in other countries and comes and goes. his wife is happy and fine, as long as he comes home and provides.

sounds like a mans wet dream no? maybe a tiny bit jealous.

Truthfully, I'm old fashioned, and I prefer the old fashioned way.
meet a girl, fall in love. spend rest of life with only her.

she just has to be the right one.

you are right I think; it is tougher out there, but not close to impossible.


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## nuclearnightmare

RClawson said:


> Despite the sweeping generalizations I believe the OP to be correct. The paradigm shift is well under way and will never be rolled back. I do believe *there are exceptional women out there but you have to put yourself in places and among the right people to find them*.


:iagree:
in bold!!!

that is key. so I like to use metaphors in the extreme. the character of men and women vary greatly (duh). some are soaring on a moral plane well above the rest of us. they are special people -- simply put. 

(i have to admit I enjoy describing the other end of the spectrum more so.....) 

at the other end of the spectrum (wait for it.....)
are those without legs, that travel on their bellies through any gutter they can find and often prefer to tunnel below the gutter wherever possible and....you get the picture. we still owe these people our respect. after all we did evolve from them (think back a few hundred million years)

so if you want to meet and get to know along this full spectrum, then by all means concentrate on bars and clubs. Otherwise plug into quality places, quality activities, quality people etc.


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## Married but Happy

You can be loyal without being weak, sensitive without being a wuss, and allow her freedom and independence - but only to the point where she observes good boundaries. I am not at all interested in a traditional woman, nor am I interested in one who wants - or thinks - she has all the power.

Essentially, I'm saying there is a middle ground where you create an egalitarian relationship of mutual respect, loyalty, compassion, love and support. Neither person is weak, neither is needlessly hard.

All of my relationships since my divorce have been with loyal, smart, independent, successful, loving - and yes, beautiful - women of character. I've never treated a woman with disrespect, or played the a-hole to get their attention. A good man attracts good women. It's that simple. And has nothing to do with her following traditional values.


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## Methuselah

Lila said:


> His motto regarding women is "Stunning, Sexual, or Sane - two out of three is the best a man can hope for".


He needs to meet my better half. She's stunning, sexual AND very sane.

I hit the jackpot when I met her, and still worship the ground she walks on to this day.

Sometimes I wonder what she saw in me that she's stayed with me for so long 


There is a lot to write about in this thread. In part, it sounds like men today are not interested in a partner, but a housekeeper they can have sex with.

On the other hand, I have seen a movement away from traditional gender roles in western families and I do think this is the source of many of our societal problems today. Human civilization evolved with these traditional roles for eons and we have seemed to progress quite naturally, until the past 50 years or so.

Part of the problem is, IMO, today's young adults in westernized countries have never experienced hardship. They do not know what it is like to go without. This has created an entitlement mentality which is further encouraged by the continuing growth of socialist societies and governments.


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## norajane

Methuselah said:


> There is a lot to write about in this thread. In part, it sounds like men today are not interested in a partner, but a housekeeper they can have sex with.
> 
> On the other hand, I have seen a movement away from traditional gender roles in western families and I do think this is the source of many of our societal problems today. Human civilization evolved with these traditional roles for eons and we have seemed to progress quite naturally, until the past 50 years or so.
> 
> Part of the problem is, IMO, today's young adults in westernized countries have never experienced hardship. They do not know what it is like to go without. This has created an entitlement mentality which is further encouraged by the continuing growth of socialist societies and governments.


A housekeeper to have sex with? That sounds like the traditional gender roles you are lamenting have eroded.

Some of us have experienced hardship, and we have had to do without, which is why we have deliberately moved beyond traditional gender roles. We realize that we need to be able to support ourselves and/or contribute to the support of our families, so we got educations and got jobs and thus have less time and interest in the traditional wife role.

Or am I misunderstanding what you were trying to say?


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## nuclearnightmare

norajane said:


> A housekeeper to have sex with? That sounds like the traditional gender roles you are lamenting have eroded.
> 
> Some of us have experienced hardship, and we have had to do without, which is why we have deliberately moved beyond traditional gender roles. We realize that we need to be able to support ourselves and/or contribute to the support of our families, so we got educations and got jobs and thus have less time and interest in the traditional wife role.
> 
> Or am I misunderstanding what you were trying to say?


...just want to add that, though I am a LONG ways from wearing a t-shirt that says "I am a feminist" or other such obseqious nonsense - pontificating on "tradition" what comes to my mind is that I think for most of history if a woman wanted to have a career 'outside the home' it wasn't all that difficult, because the career that most men had was agriculture and I think most wives were more than welcome to get involved with both hands, and with their back, to add to the labor force along with her children. 

The modern issue is the divergent variety of work and that many women can get bored staying home (and I don't mean there is something wrong with women who thrive as SAHM). I would do absolutely horribly in all aspects as a stay at home parent. I don't think I would last more than 3 months. so for women like me (???) working is essentially a necessity. even married to a billionaire...wouldn't matter in the slightest.


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## Methuselah

norajane said:


> Or am I misunderstanding what you were trying to say?


I expect so.

People in westernized societies have not truly experienced hardship as it exists in some sections of the world. The fact you have been able to "get educations and jobs", etc., illustrates this point. 

You have not experienced hardship, you have merely been inconvenienced and had to adapt.

That ability does not exist in some areas of the world.

My children and grandchildren do not really know what it is like to go without. And by going without, I mean truly going without -- not merely going without until they earned enough money to purchase or obtain whatever it is they desired on their own. 

Even my generation, to a large degree, has not experienced hardship.




norajane said:


> We realize that we need to be able to support ourselves and/or contribute to the support of our families, so we got educations and got jobs and thus have less time and interest in the traditional wife role.


There is certainly nothing wrong with being self-sufficient. 

However, that movement away from the family has created a void. Where a parent once was, now there is a day-care center or babysitter, which is no substitute for a parent. Subsequently, proper morality and values are not being instilled into today's generation as they once were by my grandparents and even parents into me.

Instead, the State has become the nanny and source of morality which is instilled into our children, which includes having your school system have your daughter learn how to place condoms on cucumbers when she is 8 years old, rather than you or your husband instructing your daughter on the proper role of sex in a loving relationship with a man. The result? Your daughter is now pregnant at age 14 and the illegitimacy rate in our society is sky-high, but heck, as long as both you and your husband have your Lexus and Mercedes and 4500 sq ft house in the 'burbs, all is well.

(not "you" personally, BTW)

There is something to be said about traditional family roles and values in society. It is not about subrogating women. My partner is highly educated and, in many respects, significantly more intelligent than I am. Aspects of who she is that I admire and respect. 

Much of this is lost on the modern-day woman in today's western world, though, thanks to feminist brainwashing.


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## norajane

My parents and I weren't born in this country, so I continue disagree with your premise about not knowing hardship.

A lot of women NEVER had the luxury of being a SAHM, even in "traditional" times because they couldn't afford to, something happened to their husband or his ability to work, or hubbie took off and never looked back. Those women always worked, always had to work, and we still have women who HAVE to work.

Working women is not all about McMansions and luxury cars. Most working women work because they have to. Feminism has helped them get paid better for the jobs they do, has broken down barriers to education to help them get better jobs since they already have to work.


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## Methuselah

Lila said:


> It's been my experience that happily married men appreciate their wives as a whole and not for the sum of their parts.


I fell in love with Edna's mind and spirit long before I actually met her. We would often exchange lengthy letters which would take hours to write, days in transit, and weeks to receive a response. By the time we met, I was already madly in love with her, and have been devoted to her ever since.


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## sinnister

I can believe this.

But can you imagine what it's like to be a single woman trying to find a long term comittment from men now a days? Her choices are cheaters, losers addicted to gaming, are feminized cry babies to soft to get anything done. 

And when they naturally are attracted by more traditional men, their feelings are invalidated by every media outlet, magazine and even sometimes women in their inner circle. So they're being conditioned to be less attracted to traditional males by nurture, yet their innate physical need to couple with a strong male figure keeps creeping back into the forefront.

So what is a woman to do?


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## MarriedDude

I would propose that the game hasn't really changed. Its still the same for both males and females...find the best mate that you can. 

Expectations have changed. Sooooo many men lament and whine and ***** that FEMALES say they want a sensitive guy, does the laundry, blah blah blah...They come up with many adjectives...often contradictory...which means they don't know. But what remains the same is the desire for safety and security -which they get from a strong male.


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## MarriedDude

Lila said:


> Traditional minded women are not very difficult to find in Western society. However, as with everything else in life, nothing is perfect. Poida specifically said he's found a woman with "a heart of gold, _but_ [she's] average looking". His point for this thread was that he can't find a woman "with a great body, gorgeous face" who also happens to be traditional.
> 
> IMO, like attracts like. In other words, a "hot", traditional woman (great homemaker, mother, submissive, etc...) is going to want a "hot", traditional man (financially secure, leader, family-oriented etc...). The majority of modern men do not meet the criteria for being traditionally minded yet want the benefits that come with having a traditional wife. BTW, this isn't solely a man problem. The same holds true for women who say that good-looking, traditional men don't exist.
> 
> *It's a two way street folks. If you want a hot traditional spouse, then you better be a hot, traditional spouse yourself.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Csquare

I am an Asian American woman married to a all-American Boy Scout of a man for 25+ years. At my peak, I would say that my hotness was more ancho chili rather than habanero hot.

My H is quite hot, more so as he has matured and gained confidence and success. He is a leader in his career.

I think that our traditional division of labor -me at home, H out in the world - has provided a stable, nuturing environment for our kids. They are hard-working, conscientious, caring young adults. No issues with teenage rebellion.

We are all quite happy, but we do struggle with maintaining true to our own values in the face of societal pressures to conform to dual career families. Especially as my kids are older, I get some hints - even from my H - that it's time for me to get out of the house already and get a job. Not that we need the money, as far as I can tell. 

How do I respond to the question, "And what do you do, Csquare??"

Anyway, in danger of threadjacking here. My point is that if OP wants a traditional woman who is faithful, loyal, good homemaker, etc. he should expect that at some point she will no longer be a viable candidate in the workforce - pretty sure my college degrees are past their shelf-life - and he will have to support her financially for the duration.


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## sinnister

Lila said:


> Traditional minded women are not very difficult to find in Western society. However, as with everything else in life, nothing is perfect. Poida specifically said he's found a woman with "a heart of gold, _but_ [she's] average looking". His point for this thread was that he can't find a woman "with a great body, gorgeous face" who also happens to be traditional.
> 
> IMO, like attracts like. In other words, a "hot", traditional woman (great homemaker, mother, submissive, etc...) is going to want a "hot", traditional man (financially secure, leader, family-oriented etc...). The majority of modern men do not meet the criteria for being traditionally minded yet want the benefits that come with having a traditional wife. BTW, this isn't solely a man problem. The same holds true for women who say that good-looking, traditional men don't exist.
> 
> It's a two way street folks. If you want a hot traditional spouse, then you better be a hot, traditional spouse yourself.


I started trying to say this but I went off the rails LOL. Yes...this is what I meant to say.


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## thatbpguy

In my first marriage I wanted to be the good guy. Take care of her, bring home the bacon... and in so doing I think I became a bit of a people pleaser. I hate that.

Now, in my second, I am da man. I am more myself and call the shots as I see fit. Granted, wifey always has a say and I defer in matters I don't feel strongly about, but aside from that there is no question as to who runs the roost. 

It just has to be.


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## poida

sinnister said:


> I can believe this.
> 
> But can you imagine what it's like to be a single woman trying to find a long term comittment from men now a days? Her choices are cheaters, losers addicted to gaming, are feminized cry babies to soft to get anything done.
> 
> And when they naturally are attracted by more traditional men, their feelings are invalidated by every media outlet, magazine and even sometimes women in their inner circle. So they're being conditioned to be less attracted to traditional males by nurture, yet their innate physical need to couple with a strong male figure keeps creeping back into the forefront.
> 
> So what is a woman to do?


As I said, the feminist movement doesn't realise what they have done to themselves. I'm all for equality, freedom etc etc, but it's all gone too far. Men and women have lost their natural place in society and nobody feels comfortable about it.


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## poida

MarriedDude said:


> I would propose that the game hasn't really changed. Its still the same for both males and females...find the best mate that you can.
> 
> Expectations have changed. Sooooo many men lament and whine and ***** that FEMALES say they want a sensitive guy, does the laundry, blah blah blah...They come up with many adjectives...often contradictory...which means they don't know. But what remains the same is the desire for safety and security -which they get from a strong male.


I'm guessing you had a pretty good relationship with your dad as a kid. And a balanced mom who wasn't too over protective.

Not everyone had that. Your whole perception of the world changes.

If I can take anything away from my divorce, it is a sense of clarity of what men and women want in life. it isn't rocket science, but for some (like me) I was oblivious.

I mean, seriously, I thought a "nice guy" was all women wanted and needed. How wrong I was.


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## GusPolinski

FrenchFry said:


> Nice guys love to blame their insecurity on women and feminism.
> 
> Va-Clang!


And with a single reply, you've completely unraveled OP's point!

Or not.


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## poida

FrenchFry said:


> Nice guys love to blame their insecurity on women and feminism.
> 
> Va-Clang!


True, but I'm not sure that changes the point.

And besides, nice guys aren't insecure, they are oblivious - another common misconception.


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## poida

Basically, what it comes down to for me is break my very physical association with love and accept my wonderful woman for who she is physically or move on and most likely be hurt but a string of women.

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Perhaps (what sounds like) my fear of being hurt is more problematic here.


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## Faithful Wife

sinnister said:


> I can believe this.
> 
> But can you imagine what it's like to be a single woman trying to find a long term comittment from men now a days? Her choices are cheaters, losers addicted to gaming, are feminized cry babies to soft to get anything done.
> 
> And when they naturally are attracted by more traditional men, their feelings are invalidated by every media outlet, magazine and even sometimes women in their inner circle. So they're being conditioned to be less attracted to traditional males by nurture, yet their innate physical need to couple with a strong male figure keeps creeping back into the forefront.
> 
> So what is a woman to do?


Nah. All that happens is people wait longer to get married.

Men, even game addicted ones, *usually* want to get married and have families...women don't always want that (as some think). So what happens is all the marriage and coupling still occurs, it just happens later in life for this generation.

There will never be a time that the desire to couple and family up disappears. People will always want that and will always get it for themselves.


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## poida

FrenchFry said:


> I've tangled with few. It's both.


Probably.

Oblivious before being f*cked over by a woman and then insecure.

It's a process us "Nice Guys" have to go through I think.

I'm acutely aware of that issue now and trying to get my life back on track to a point where I love the job I am in so I can strive to be successful, and demand respect from the woman I am with. 

Get those two things fixed and the woman will follow.


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## Red Sonja

poida said:


> Men and women have lost their natural place in society and nobody feels comfortable about it.


, do you truly believe this?! ufb


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## Red Sonja

FrenchFry said:


> Nice guys love to blame their insecurity on women and feminism.


I nominate this for post of the day.


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## poida

Red Sonja said:


> , do you truly believe this?! ufb


Yes I do. But let me be clear. 

I'm not talking about equal opportunity to work and get paid the same and have the same rights in society.

I'm talking about a society that has become so focused on things being equal that this has spilled over in the dynamic within relationships that men and women should be the "same, equal".

We seem to have forgotten as a society that men and women and hormonally and physically different.

And the things that society expect of women and men in a relationship does not gel from a physical attraction point of view.

Women want a man who does the dishes, cooks, plays with the kids and does what he is told to do but they are attracted to the single man over the road who does the f*ck he wants, dates and f*cks who he wants and lives a single life.

See..... it's completely contradictory.


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## poida

FrenchFry said:


> Maybe.
> 
> You know the saying that respect isn't demanded, it's earned. This pretty much will attract women who place (monetary?) success at the the top of the list.
> 
> If that isn't what you desire and cannot see the possible pitfall of this as well and are prepared to accept them--you'll be in exactly the same place, only claiming that all women are golddiggers as well.


Yeah you are right.

I'm just very sensitive to getting the fundamental things that women are attracted to right because my wife dumped me because I wasn't successful enough or strong enough a leader.

I accept that if all I do is focus on those things I will attract the same type of woman.

I can see I have it all backwards (I should strive to have these things for my own personal achievement sand satisfaction in life), but I guess I have lived a life where I have strived to please women.

I'm really not sure how to break that cycle of thinking to be honest. It is so engrained.


----------



## poida

FrenchFry said:


> You are smushing together two separate things.
> 
> Bolded is a man who takes care of his household. This is attractive.
> 
> Italicized is a man who has no internal structure. This is not attractive.


Yep. Right again. I can see that.

That simple lack of understanding reeks of a man who's mission in life was to serve and please women.

At least I see it now. I was oblivious in the past.

In fact I read some of my early letters to my wife who cheated on me and I was practically begging from day one.

I'll get there.


----------



## poida

FrenchFry said:


> It's not feminism's fault or even our entire gender, I promise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, absolutely.
> 
> You are going to get hurt, probably. You might even do some pain infliction yourself.
> 
> But if you can get your priorities straight and figure out which personal boundaries are best for you you are more likely to find that kind of relationship rather than lamenting your upbringing or a socio-political movement or an entire gender.


Explain personal boundaries a bit more please.


----------



## Catherine602

poida said:


> As I said, the feminist movement doesn't realise what they have done to themselves. I'm all for equality, freedom etc etc, but it's all gone too far. Men and women have lost their natural place in society and nobody feels comfortable about it.


. 

Social changes have always benefited the many. The powers of the few are trimmed but humans have shown time and time again that we cannot handle power over the lives of others. Revolutions are a form of social evolution. If life were good under domination, upheaval would not have happened. We can't afford to squander the talents of a sizable proportion of man. 

I think men and women are adjusting very well, from what I've seen, despite dire predictions of doom. The next generations will only know what they live not what their parents have experienced. They won't miss what they never had and there is no way to control the lives of the next generation.


----------



## poida

FrenchFry said:


> No problem. For example, you posted:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by "more freedom?"
> 
> What are you uncomfortable with in a relationship? Doesn't have to be a rational based reaction--just what are your limits of freedom in a relationship? If those limits are breached, are you willing to walk away immediately?


I'm not sure now you ask. I think it was my flawed interpretation of the "gift" I gave my wife by serving her. I can see how messed up that is now.

In the past I would say I had few limits.

My decision to leave my wife came about when I decided that her morals were unacceptable. 

I guess I am strongly morally driven.. yeah, I know. another common Mr Nice Guy trait.

I would say that now my morals are still strong, but I know my place in a healthy relationship better now.

That fact I am with a woman that we can talk about anything and discuss intimate feelings feels amazing.


----------



## poida

Thanks.

My current battle is one of physical attractiveness for the woman I find absolutely amazing in every other way. 

I find it intensely stressful.

Really not sure what to do to be honest.

Something in my says to be patient and relax.

Something else says my view won't change and to cut her free and let her be with someone who worships her.

I have learnt to love her body (obviously not a supermodel) and am enjoying it during sex, but I still see her as a bit more plump that I would desire, but I am still worried about how I see her face. Not beautiful as a such, cute and cheeky and honest, but not beautiful.

Sometimes it all gets to much and I imagine breaking up with her.

Other times, I can't wait to see her, talk with her and connect emotionally. Oh, and the sex is amazing.


----------



## RClawson

poida said:


> Thanks.
> 
> My current battle is one of physical attractiveness for the woman I find absolutely amazing in every other way.
> 
> I find it intensely stressful.
> 
> Really not sure what to do to be honest.
> 
> Something in my says to be patient and relax.
> 
> Something else says my view won't change and to cut her free and let her be with someone who worships her.
> 
> I have learnt to love her body (obviously not a supermodel) and am enjoying it during sex, but I still see her as a bit more plump that I would desire, but I am still worried about how I see her face. Not beautiful as a such, cute and cheeky and honest, but not beautiful.
> 
> Sometimes it all gets to much and I imagine breaking up with her.
> 
> Other times, I can't wait to see her, talk with her and connect emotionally. Oh, and the sex is amazing.


Me thinks you needs some therapy ( and I mean that in the nicest way). I have always been attracted to the person first. Who does not like looking at an attractive women? 

Throughout my life it has been my experience that that the soul of a woman dictates her beauty. Have you never experienced meeting a women who just blossoms and becomes beautiful because of who she is (the total package). I think I have mentioned this before but I used to work with a guy who was model good looking. Could have had any woman he wanted. A new gal began to work at a sister office and she was very plain physically but once you got to know her..........Wow what a lady. I remember asking him one day "What do you think about Karen"? Him "She's a dog". I was shocked at that but not shocked 18 months later when they got married.


----------



## EleGirl

nuclearnightmare said:


> ...just want to add that, though I am a LONG ways from wearing a t-shirt that says "I am a feminist" or other such obseqious nonsense - pontificating on "tradition" what comes to my mind is that I think for most of history if a woman wanted to have a career 'outside the home' it wasn't all that difficult, because the career that most men had was agriculture and I think most wives were more than welcome to get involved with both hands, and with their back, to add to the labor force along with her children.
> 
> The modern issue is the divergent variety of work and that many women can get bored staying home (and I don't mean there is something wrong with women who thrive as SAHM). I would do absolutely horribly in all aspects as a stay at home parent. I don't think I would last more than 3 months. so for women like me (???) working is essentially a necessity. even married to a billionaire...wouldn't matter in the slightest.


You bring up a good point. Society has changed because we are now a technological/service society. We've solved, or greatly ridiculed, many of the problems that mankind has struggled with since the dawn of time. Growing and hunting food is no longer our focus. Making the money to buy that food at the grocery store. 


Women have always worked. Their work was never only raising children and in the home. The husband, wife and all the children worked. Usually a men, along with male family members over the age of 4, would work the fields and hunt. the woman would tend the animals, veggie garden and work in the house and take and take care of small children. When the crops came in, the entire family worked in the fields to get them in before they went bad.

The idea of what some men today think is traditional... a woman who stays home and cleans the house with all the modern appliances, soaps, etc. and watches kids is not really traditional at all. It's what women for a short time in the past decades did and only wives of the well to do in past centuries.

Just as men and women worked side by side in the past to survive, so do we today. It's just that we have to do it by going to work every day.


----------



## MEM2020

CH,

The post below is QFT.

And you can tell within a very short time what kind of character someone has if it's important to you and you simply pay attention....




ConanHub said:


> I always look for character in someone.
> 
> There are pretty people with character and not so pretty with none.
> 
> So look for character. Mrs. Conan had character and that is what drew me. She was cute but not a model, which I have dated, and she was in killer shape and still is.
> 
> Honestly, she could have been less than cute and still captured me.
> 
> Her love, strength and devotion are the traits that drew me.
> 
> I have met very beautiful women with character as well. Unfortunately, it was when I was younger and when I had no character.
> 
> I broke some hearts back then.


----------



## poida

RClawson said:


> Me thinks you needs some therapy ( and I mean that in the nicest way). I have always been attracted to the person first. Who does not like looking at an attractive women?
> 
> Throughout my life it has been my experience that that the soul of a woman dictates her beauty. Have you never experienced meeting a women who just blossoms and becomes beautiful because of who she is (the total package). I think I have mentioned this before but I used to work with a guy who was model good looking. Could have had any woman he wanted. A new gal began to work at a sister office and she was very plain physically but once you got to know her..........Wow what a lady. I remember asking him one day "What do you think about Karen"? Him "She's a dog". I was shocked at that but not shocked 18 months later when they got married.


I've been in therapy for more than a year now.

This is the current thing I am working through.

Essentially, I have conditioned myself to consider physical appearance as the most important contributor to "love".

This is because I have never been in a relationship with a close personal connection. I made a fantasy of the woman I was married to in an attempt to meet my personal emotional needs for communication.

Yeah, I know, messed up.


----------



## EleGirl

poida said:


> I've been in therapy for more than a year now.
> 
> This is the current thing I am working through.
> 
> Essentially, *I have conditioned myself to consider physical appearance as the most important contributor to "love".*
> 
> This is because I have never been in a relationship with a close personal connection. I made a fantasy of the woman I was married to in an attempt to meet my personal emotional needs for communication.
> 
> Yeah, I know, messed up.


Have you ever considered that this is not what you are doing? That instead, what you are doing it picking a "flaw" in her to concentrate on so that you can put up walls and create emotional distance from her? That way you are protecting yourself from pain if you lose her... and subconsciously you are sure you will lose her.


----------



## BookOfJob

CuddleBug said:


> ....My rule is, the hotter they are, the more trouble they are. So unless you are hot, counter balance her, being hot or wealthy, don't waste your time on a hottie. ...


This was summarized perfectly in 'The way of the Superior Man' as "if you want to be in the relationship more than she does, then you'd better accept your loss and learn from it..."

A difficult book to read like an oracle but the wisdom in it is worth studying.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

The game has changed because women have more options and men don't like it. 

As for traditional marraige, my grandmothers and great mothers worked our of necissity. People yearning for yesteryear never understood it nor do they read much history and understand how bad things were particularly for women and children. 

As for the poster who said you could move to an island or as RD said bring in an Asian - I vomited in my mouth a little. Talking about treating women like commodities makes me sick. If you devalue women in such a way and wonder why poor nice little old you is single... Stop wondering there is nothing nice about you.


----------



## RClawson

*LittleDeer* said:


> The game has changed because women have more options and *men don't like it.*


I think it is more of a case of some men, especially nice guys, are trying to figure out how to work within those new dynamics.


----------



## poida

EleGirl said:


> Have you ever considered that this is not what you are doing? That instead, what you are doing it picking a "flaw" in her to concentrate on so that you can put up walls and create emotional distance from her? That way you are protecting yourself from pain if you lose her... and subconsciously you are sure you will lose her.


Yes you are right, and actually I'm doing both.

I discussed exactly this topic in the last few sessions with my counsellor.

I'm not sure how long I can deal with the stress of feeling this way. I guess I am still hurt from being cheated on.

I wish I could just be over it.


----------



## poida

*LittleDeer* said:


> The game has changed because women have more options and men don't like it.
> 
> As for traditional marraige, my grandmothers and great mothers worked our of necissity. People yearning for yesteryear never understood it nor do they read much history and understand how bad things were particularly for women and children.
> 
> As for the poster who said you could move to an island or as RD said bring in an Asian - I vomited in my mouth a little. Talking about treating women like commodities makes me sick. If you devalue women in such a way and wonder why poor nice little old you is single... Stop wondering there is nothing nice about you.


I'm with you about the Asian comment. Not cool. And besides they quickly learn to demand the same needs as any woman anyway:rofl:

I think you perhaps have the wrong idea about the point trying be made here. And if I'm a bit brutal, your comment is a bit short sighted. Nobody here is talking about direct equality, opportunity, options or money being a bad thing specifically. 

We are discussing the by-product of a more female empowered society. I'm trying to illustrate that young men that have been brought up in todays society have naturally been conditioned to be MORE like women, seek the approval of women and somewhat serve women.

All that might sound ridiculous, but I not to proud that I am a case in point. Brought up by very dominant feminist mother who was over protective and a father who was emotionally distant. The result, a man who seeks approval from women and seeks to please and serve them with all his might.

Where am I going with this? Well, the resulting man is not what women find sexually exciting. Sure they are pleasant and pliable and "nice guys" but in the end, not very sexually exciting and unable to provide the woman with the security that most women desire. In the end, unable to meet the needs of most women.

THIS in my opinion is why more women are cheating. After a great deal of counselling, self reflection and reading, I have come to accept this certainly contributed to the decision my wife made to cheat. It's something I will need to learn to accept and let go.


----------



## EleGirl

poida said:


> I'm with you about the Asian comment. Not cool. And besides they quickly learn to demand the same needs as any woman anyway:rofl:
> 
> I think you perhaps have the wrong idea about the point trying be made here. And if I'm a bit brutal, your comment is a bit short sighted. Nobody here is talking about direct equality, opportunity, options or money being a bad thing specifically.
> 
> We are discussing the by-product of a more female empowered society. I'm trying to illustrate that young men that have been brought up in todays society have naturally been conditioned to be MORE like women, seek the approval of women and somewhat serve women.
> 
> All that might sound ridiculous, but I not to proud that I am a case in point. Brought up by very dominant feminist mother who was over protective and a father who was emotionally distant. The result, a man who seeks approval from women and seeks to please and serve them with all his might.
> 
> Where am I going with this? Well, the resulting man is not what women find sexually exciting. Sure they are pleasant and pliable and "nice guys" but in the end, not very sexually exciting and unable to provide the woman with the security that most women desire. In the end, unable to meet the needs of most women.
> 
> THIS in my opinion is why more women are cheating. After a great deal of counselling, self reflection and reading, I have come to accept this certainly contributed to the decision my wife made to cheat. It's something I will need to learn to accept and let go.


More women are cheating because they can. 

In the past, if a woman cheated she stood to lose her children and be thrown out on the street. If she could get a job, it would be a poverty levels. She'd be unlikely to be able to find another guy who would marry her because she was considered a 'fallen' woman.

In the past, men could usually cheat with impunity. Women were raised to accept it if their husband cheated. They would look the other way and pretend that they did not know. Women did this because most women did not have the means to end a marriage and support herself and her children. There was no such thing as child support or alimony.

This nonsense that men keep talking about, that men today are feminized, that they are brought up by women to serve women. 

The issue is not that men are sissified, but that many women have the financial independence to have more choices in life. For example a women no longer has to just accept it if her husband cheats. And sadly, some women use their independence in the same manner that some men do... they cheat. 

The % of women who cheat today is a bit less than the number of men who cheat. So perhaps, men are not living with what women used to live with. And men don't like it. Guess what? Women did not like it when their husband's cheated and they had no choice but to stay and pretend.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

poida said:


> Thanks.
> 
> My current battle is one of physical attractiveness for the woman I find absolutely amazing in every other way.
> 
> I find it intensely stressful.
> 
> Really not sure what to do to be honest.
> 
> Something in my says to be patient and relax.
> 
> Something else says my view won't change and to cut her free and let her be with someone who worships her.
> 
> I have learnt to love her body (obviously not a supermodel) and am enjoying it during sex, but I still see her as a bit more plump that I would desire, but I am still worried about how I see her face. Not beautiful as a such, cute and cheeky and honest, but not beautiful.
> 
> Sometimes it all gets to much and I imagine breaking up with her.
> 
> Other times, I can't wait to see her, talk with her and connect emotionally. Oh, and the sex is amazing.


I can see this turning bad. You'll feel you settled because you couldn't get a hot girl. She'll notice, even if you don't say something. You're already having to talk yourself into it. What's it going to be like in 10 years down the road, if she's a little more plump, the new love feelings are gone. Or if the kind of hot girls you want start to pay attention to you, are you going to drop her because that's what you really want?

As a fellow "average" girl, I would hate to be in a relationship with someone who felt this way. I would want him to be honest about it so I could go and find someone who liked all of me. 

It's only been 1 year separated from your wife. That's not a lot of time, a lot of women would be scared away just because it's too soon for you. Keep working on yourself. Work on your self-esteem and confidence- that's where many women get the "weak and powerless" feelings from, not your nice actions.


----------



## Forest

SpinDaddy said:


> *
> Howdy Poida,*
> 
> Game’s not new. Have a listen . . . .
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKzacHbsBJM
> 
> Advice was as sage 50-years ago as it is today!


Great. My first thought, too.

"that girl is ugly--but she sure can cook!"


----------



## Forest

poida said:


> Women want a man who does the dishes, cooks, plays with the kids and does what he is told to do but they are attracted to the single man over the road who does the f*ck he wants, dates and f*cks who he wants and lives a single life.
> 
> See..... it's completely contradictory.


Oh yeah.

"I don't know what I want. And I want it now!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avXFaj9WF9Q


----------



## sinnister

*LittleDeer* said:


> The game has changed because *women have more options *and men don't like it.
> 
> As for traditional marraige, my grandmothers and great mothers worked our of necissity. People yearning for yesteryear never understood it nor do they read much history and understand how bad things were particularly for women and children.
> 
> As for the poster who said you could move to an island or as RD said bring in an Asian - I vomited in my mouth a little. Talking about treating women like commodities makes me sick. If you devalue women in such a way and wonder why poor nice little old you is single... Stop wondering there is nothing nice about you.


I disagree with this. I think women have more variety in the "partner pool" but that doesn't necessarily equate to more options. I think womens options are more limited today then in the past. Not based on any hard stats our truths, more of a gut feeling I have.

To be clear, I don't think that has anything at all to do with feminism or women in general. I think it has to do with how society has evolved. There are natural evolutions to all societies throughout history. We are now in cycle where hunter gatherer is not at the forefront of mating requirements. Food can be bought in stores at every corner.

So what we have is paradigm shift towards valueing less of the survival characteristics in a mate.

The same goes for men to women by the way. We traditionally needed women to have strong physical features that accentuate curveture for child bearing. That's not necessarily valued in the current cycle the human race is at now because its relatively easy to have children given the advances in modern medicine, sperm banks, internet dating etc. So less of those characteristics are valued by men now a days which is why you see attraction to a less "healthy" looking ideal of women.

Dislcaimer: these are all my personal thoughts. Not trying to piss anybody off by claiming any scientific basis for any of this.


----------



## EleGirl

sinnister said:


> I disagree with this. *I think women have more variety in the "partner pool" but that doesn't necessarily equate to more options.*


Little Deer is not talking about more options in the "partner pool", she is talking about options such as being able to support ourselves if we want or if circumstances make it necessary.


----------



## Ikaika

*LittleDeer* said:


> The game has changed because women have more options and men don't like it.
> 
> As for traditional marraige, my grandmothers and great mothers worked our of necissity. People yearning for yesteryear never understood it nor do they read much history and understand how bad things were particularly for women and children.
> 
> As for the poster who said you could move to an island or as RD said bring in an Asian - I vomited in my mouth a little. Talking about treating women like commodities makes me sick. If you devalue women in such a way and wonder why poor nice little old you is single... Stop wondering there is nothing nice about you.



I live on an island with my Asian wife... 

A little education (traditional. Game change? :scratchhead: )

Polynesian women are strong willed and just as physically tough as some men. Just do what is pono (right as an adult) and all is good

Traditional Chinese women wear the pants at home even though China is still very paternalistic. Passionate if he is being an adult.

Traditional Japanese women may appear reserved and quiet out in public; never to display issues they have with their husband in public. However behind closed doors they expect perfection from him and never shy to tell him of his short comings if he is not being a responsible adult.

Traditional Korean women are publicly outspoken and their passion can turn on their man if he is not meeting her expectations, being an adult.

I could on with more, Filipino, Indian (eastern)

So I don't know what game has changed. I have dated each type of women above and married one. I don't find it a game as long as I'm being an adult. All is good


----------



## EleGirl

Ikaika said:


> So I don't know what game has changed. I have dated each type of women above and married one. I don't find it a game as long as I'm being an adult. All is good


Threads are conversations between those posting. It really helps to read all the posts in a thread to understand the context of posts.
The this posted quoted below……


*LittleDeer* said:


> As for the poster who said you could move to an island or as RD said bring in an Asian - I vomited in my mouth a little. Talking about treating women like commodities makes me sick. If you devalue women in such a way and wonder why poor nice little old you is single... Stop wondering there is nothing nice about you.


LittleDeer was commenting on jorgegene’s below quoted post and the many times here on TAM that men have posted comments saying that American/Western women are no good and men should go get an Asian wife because they are traditional, compliant and submissive.


jorgegene said:


> i ran into a dude i knew after not seeing him for about a year and a half. said he had moved to southeast asian island. he claimed that he found a local wife and that men are king there. it is the custom (so he says) that you marry a native wife and that it is understood you have girlfriends on the side. He says he has two girlfriends in other countries and comes and goes. his wife is happy and fine, as long as he comes home and provides.
> 
> sounds like a mans wet dream no? maybe a tiny bit jealous.
> 
> Truthfully, I'm old fashioned, and I prefer the old fashioned way.
> 
> meet a girl, fall in love. spend rest of life with only her.
> 
> she just has to be the right one.
> 
> you are right I think; it is tougher out there, but not close to impossible.


----------



## Ikaika

EleGirl said:


> Threads are conversations between those posting. It really helps to read all the posts in a thread to understand the context of posts.
> 
> The this posted quoted below……
> 
> 
> 
> LittleDeer was commenting on jorgegene’s below quoted post and the many times here on TAM that men have posted comments saying that American/Western women are no good and men should go get an Asian wife because they are traditional, compliant and submissive.



I was simply giving input to the typical misconception of Asian/Pacific women. I read the thread and was not critiquing LittleDeer, just my input. This is an open forum. Pretty sure this was in context, but if you feel it is not, I will simply butt out.


----------



## Weminuche

Here's the deal, plain and simple. How would you be, if hot girls were throwing themselves at you all the time?

If she is significantly hotter than you and both of you know it, you are going to have problems. "Hotter" is somewhat different to men and women. Men think hotter. Desirable is probably a better unisex term.

Relative strength and value on the open market is the key. If you want her more than she wants you, and you feel her options are much greater than yours, you're screwed. This is different from "marry an ugly woman." This is more like don't "outkick your coverage."

The below is a good way to understand it.



> Willard Waller was a sociologist who coined the phrase “The Principle of Least Interest.” It simply states that the person who has the least interest in continuing a relationship has the greatest power. Waller developed the theory after observing many dating couples at Penn State, where he noticed that romantic partners usually had unequal degrees of emotional involvement. He claimed that if the inequity became too large, one partner would be in a position to exploit the other emotionally. It’s a variation on supply and demand theory. In fact, although the concept was articulated specifically to relate to relationships, it has over time become an economic principle as well. It is applied frequently to negotiation and business strategy.


----------



## EleGirl

Ikaika said:


> So I don't know what game has changed. I have dated each type of women above and married one. I don't find it a game as long as I'm being an adult. All is good


Now, the game that LittleDeer was commenting on here……


*LittleDeer* said:


> The game has changed because women have more options and men don't like it.
> 
> As for traditional marriage, my grandmothers and great mothers worked out of necessity. People yearning for yesteryear never understood it nor do they read much history and understand how bad things were particularly for women and children.


... is that in traditional marriage in the past (and in some places still in the world) women had few choices. Today women have choices: they can chose a traditional type of marriage and be a SAHM, they can chose to be single, marry or divorce, they can chose to get a good education.

Before equal rights for women started to become law….

In the past if a woman did not have a man to support her, she was limited to very few types of work, all low paid. 

Single women had to either stay with their FOO or live in poverty.

A wife and her children were doomed to live in abject poverty. Few, if any women, could find a job that would support a family in anything except in poverty.

Today women have as much right as a man to a good education, to have a career and to be paid equally to a man for the same work (thought there is still a ways to go on this.)

In the past, a woman who was caught cheating was thrown out, and lost her children.

A man who cheated had little to no consequences. Men cheating was considered normal. A wife had little to no recourse if her husband cheated. Most women did not have the means to leave an adulterous husband because she had to way to support herself and her children. She also could not divorce him for adultery because women needed more than adultery as the grounds for divorce. So women just looked the other way and pretended to not know that their husband was cheating, had a mistress, etc. 


While divorce was hard to obtain, it was much easier for a man to get one. A man only had to prove adultery. A woman had to prove adultery and some other especially aggravating circumstance to have the same grounds. Over the years, women learned that brutality, rape, desertion and financial chicanery did not count. 

Today women have equal rights as men to file for and get a divorce.

The above is only a short list of the way the game has changed and improved for women when compared to the marriages of yesteryear that we see men on here so often yearning for.


.


----------



## EleGirl

Ikaika said:


> I was simply giving input to the typical misconception of Asian/Pacific women. I read the thread and was not critiquing LittleDeer, just my input. This is an open forum. Pretty sure this was in context, but if you feel it is not, I will simply butt out.


Because you quoted LittleDeer's post and said "So I don't know what game has changed." I assumed you were commenting on the words in her post. It is generally assumed that when a person quotes another person's post, they are coming on the quoted post.

By the way, I agree with all of your points about Asian women.

Of course you don't need to butt out. This is an open forum. 

And as such, just as you posted your thoughts, I posted mine.


----------



## Boricha

If you want a traditional Asian wife, you will literally have to go the Asia to find one. Asian females that grow up in the US will not have the same value system that they would have if they grew up in their homeland.

For example, my mother was the typical submissive Asian wife and my father the absolute ruler. It often times bordered on abuse. After 50 plus years of marriage, it has become less rigid. I think my parents were an extreme case as some of my mothers' friends did not always submit to their husbands' rules if they thought it was wrong.

I am the antithesis of my mother. My ex husband did not measure up to what a husband should be so I divorced him. And it is true, whether good or bad, it is a lot easier for women to leave an unhappy marriage now. I can support myself financially, and have sole custody of my daughter.

When you see an Asian female in a mixed relationship in America, you can bet she is the boss.

I dated mostly non-Asian all my life but married Asian. I would have been disowned back then. Unfortunately, I wasn't submissive enough for my ex which is really hypocritical as he grew up in America too.


----------



## Boricha

Ikaika said:


> I live on an island with my Asian wife...
> 
> Polynesian women are strong willed and just as physically tough as some men. Just do what is pono (right as an adult) and all is good
> 
> Traditional Chinese women wear the pants at home even though China is still very paternalistic. Passionate if he is being an adult.
> 
> Traditional Japanese women may appear reserved and quiet out in public; never to display issues they have with their husband in public. However behind closed doors they expect perfection from him and never shy to tell him of his short comings if he is not being a responsible adult.
> 
> Traditional Korean women are publicly outspoken and their passion can turn on their man if he is not meeting her expectations, being an adult.
> 
> I could on with more, Filipino, Indian (eastern)
> 
> So I don't know what game has changed. I have dated each type of women above and married one. I don't find it a game as long as I'm being an adult. All is good


Seriously? Maybe 50 years ago but it definitely does not apply today. It's insulting to be generalized this way as if I am not my own person or something...


----------



## Ikaika

Boricha said:


> Seriously? Maybe 50 years ago but it definitely does not apply today. It's insulting to be generalized this way as if I am not my own person or something...



It is insulting to generalize. However I didn't mean it as an insult since I figure Asian women on an island are looking for the same thing women every where else (regardless of cultural upbringing) are seeking, an adult companion not a master or boy.


----------



## poida

EleGirl said:


> More women are cheating because they can.
> 
> In the past, if a woman cheated she stood to lose her children and be thrown out on the street. If she could get a job, it would be a poverty levels. She'd be unlikely to be able to find another guy who would marry her because she was considered a 'fallen' woman.
> 
> In the past, men could usually cheat with impunity. Women were raised to accept it if their husband cheated. They would look the other way and pretend that they did not know. Women did this because most women did not have the means to end a marriage and support herself and her children. There was no such thing as child support or alimony.
> 
> This nonsense that men keep talking about, that men today are feminized, that they are brought up by women to serve women.
> 
> The issue is not that men are sissified, but that many women have the financial independence to have more choices in life. For example a women no longer has to just accept it if her husband cheats. And sadly, some women use their independence in the same manner that some men do... they cheat.
> 
> The % of women who cheat today is a bit less than the number of men who cheat. So perhaps, men are not living with what women used to live with. And men don't like it. Guess what? Women did not like it when their husband's cheated and they had no choice but to stay and pretend.


Unfortunately, your view to this subject is very typical of women when men try to broach this issue - staunch defensiveness of women's rights.

Try to look past that - I'm not talking about rights, opportunity, equality, pay or power and honestly not many men have an issue with any of the above entitlements for women. 

It's just that a lot of women can't stop the "march to freedom" for long enough to see how a more female empowered society is affecting their lives in the grand scheme of things.

Any before you get defensive again, let me state that I am not blaming women. It's just that there hasn't yet been a counter-movement by men in society to re-establish and re-iterate what it is that makes a man a man, and re-iterating the features and values that make men attractive to women, sexually, emotionally and long term in a relationship. Frankly most men are too scared to even broach the subject. Can you imagine how quickly women would cut them down!!!! And it would be on national TV.

Let me pose to you some comments that I hear women make so we can consider HOW and WHY my point is relevant;

"I just wish my husband would take the lead sometimes and make a decision for us"

"I love my boyfriend, but I hate it when he continues to ask me what I want to do, all the time"

"That single guy across the road is pretty hot. He could nail me any time!!!"

"It seems like he is around all the time. I wish he had a passion of his own."


----------



## EleGirl

poida said:


> Unfortunately, your view to this subject is very typical of women when men try to broach this issue - staunch defensiveness of women's rights.
> 
> Try to look past that - I'm not talking about rights, opportunity, equality, pay or power and honestly not many men have an issue with any of the above entitlements for women.
> 
> It's just that a lot of women can't stop the "march to freedom" for long enough to see how a more female empowered society is affecting their lives in the grand scheme of things.


It’s always a good idea to use a qualified.. as in “some women” because all women do not think alike, etc.

Could the reverse be true? Could it be that also some men can’t stop their protest that women now have rights that have changed the game, to see how their processing is affecting their lives in the grand scheme of things?

Why do you think I find any problem at all in the way my life is? Why do you think I need to stop to see whatever you think I need to see and so that I become what YOU want me to be? Why does any woman need to concern herself with what you want her to be? Really the only woman who needs to concern herself one who wants to be with you.



poida said:


> Any before you get defensive again, let me state that I am not blaming women. It's just that there hasn't yet been a counter-movement by men in society to re-establish and re-iterate what it is that makes a man a man, and re-iterating the features and values that make men attractive to women, sexually, emotionally and long term in a relationship.


From what I see with men who I know in my real life, men are doing just fine. The men around me know what makes a man, they know how to be a man, and they now what makes them attractive to women, sexually, emotionally and long term in a relationship. They are mostly in long term marriages that are doing well. They have raised their children. The male children are fine too. 

My son has no issues with knowing what it is that makes a man a man, and re-iterating the features and values that make men attractive to women, sexually, emotionally and long term in a relationship. He’s doing well in life. He’s young and not married yet. But he has no problem with the young ladies around him. The young ladies he dates all have at least a BA/BS or they are in grad school. They work, they have lives. They are all quite happy.

It’s a subset of men who seen to think that they don’t know how to be a man. If a man does not know what it means to be a man, well he needs to take some time off to figure that out. Blaming women for it is just nonsense.



poida said:


> Let me pose to you some comments that I hear women make so we can consider HOW and WHY my point is relevant;
> 
> "I just wish my husband would take the lead sometimes and make a decision for us"


So what? So some woman said it. If all women were standing on their roof tops yelling that, then it would be an issue. But is some women say this… that’s some women. It’s far from all women.



poida said:


> "I love my boyfriend, but I hate it when he continues to ask me what I want to do, all the time"


So what? So some woman said it. If all women were standing on their roof tops yelling that, then it would be an issue. But is some women say this… that’s some women. It’s far from all women.



poida said:


> "That single guy across the road is pretty hot. He could nail me any time!!!"


This is so lame. Come on. So she thinks he’s hot. Do you think that before women had more choices, women did not express that they found some guy to be very attractive?



poida said:


> "It seems like he is around all the time. I wish he had a passion of his own."


So what? So some woman said it. If all women were standing on their roof tops yelling that, then it would be an issue. But is some women say this… that’s some women. It’s far from all women.

I don’t even know what that means? Does is mean that his wife is upset because her husband is a bump on a log and does nothing? Well there have been men like this since the dawn of time. Men with no passions, no interests, who go to work and do thing else. And there have been men like this who don’t go to work and do thing. 

Your list of things that is supposed to get me to stop and think about how women having choices is ruining men makes no sense at all. None of those mean anything at all.



poida said:


> Frankly most men are too scared to even broach the subject. Can you imagine how quickly women would cut them down!!!! And it would be on national TV.


Really? You are afraid of women? Really?

This is why I love strong, intelligent men with a good sense of humor. They know what they want. They know who they are. And they love strong women. And they are fun to be with.


----------



## CuddleBug

Men and women should of been equals from day one and finally today, in modern western countries, this is the case.

The way I see it, the more equal the hubby and wifee are, the more they both contribute to the relationship and marriage. It's not one sided and that's when fights happen.

Also, it is really difficult to have one main income and have a family. I'd say almost impossible unless you are rich or highly educated and that costs a lot of money today.

When hubby and wifee both work full time jobs, there are two main incomes. Both feel and know they are making a real difference contributing to the relationship and marriage.

Saving for a house and planning for retirement are now easy to do.

If one gets layed off due to downsizing, the other income is there and EI fills one income hole until they get another full time job.

In my parents day, mom stayed home and dad worked a full time job. After my sis and I were out of the house, mom worked a part time job she enjoyed herself.

Were I live, you need two full time incomes to buy a smaller house and 3 incomes for a large new house.

An education in my parents day was worth the total tuition costs and books. You get a degree, get a job, get paid well and pay off the student loan quickly.

Today, you get a degree, an insanely large student loan, you may not even get a job with that degree and if you do, it doesn't pay as well as in my parents day. And it takes forever to pay off the loan.

So I personally think its fantastic to have my wifee work a full time job she enjoys, has her own car, equally contributes to our marriage and retirement. Takes the pressure off me big time and we always have one main income as a back up. I can't see how people lived with only one main income, house, kids, debt and not stress out if they lost their job.:scratchhead: I was thinking like this 15+ years ago......

What makes Mrs.CuddleBug attractive to me is:

- she is smart
- she is educated
- she is kind, loving and faithful
- I can trust her
- she works full time and likes her career
- she is finally taking care of herself
- she is finally getting a sex drive
- she is very frugal
- low maintenance
- doesn't go out and party
- she is more passive for everything and wants me to lead, without saying it
- I am the man, lead and run our household. She likes this.
- she is my first mate, equal, input and assists me. She likes this.
- She wants me to deal with many situations she can't or doesn't want to deal with


----------



## poida

EleGirl said:


> It’s always a good idea to use a qualified.. as in “some women” because all women do not think alike, etc.
> 
> Could the reverse be true? Could it be that also some men can’t stop their protest that women now have rights that have changed the game, to see how their processing is affecting their lives in the grand scheme of things?
> 
> Why do you think I find any problem at all in the way my life is? Why do you think I need to stop to see whatever you think I need to see and so that I become what YOU want me to be? Why does any woman need to concern herself with what you want her to be? Really the only woman who needs to concern herself one who wants to be with you.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I see with men who I know in my real life, men are doing just fine. The men around me know what makes a man, they know how to be a man, and they now what makes them attractive to women, sexually, emotionally and long term in a relationship. They are mostly in long term marriages that are doing well. They have raised their children. The male children are fine too.
> 
> My son has no issues with knowing what it is that makes a man a man, and re-iterating the features and values that make men attractive to women, sexually, emotionally and long term in a relationship. He’s doing well in life. He’s young and not married yet. But he has no problem with the young ladies around him. The young ladies he dates all have at least a BA/BS or they are in grad school. They work, they have lives. They are all quite happy.
> 
> It’s a subset of men who seen to think that they don’t know how to be a man. If a man does not know what it means to be a man, well he needs to take some time off to figure that out. Blaming women for it is just nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> So what? So some woman said it. If all women were standing on their roof tops yelling that, then it would be an issue. But is some women say this… that’s some women. It’s far from all women.
> 
> 
> 
> So what? So some woman said it. If all women were standing on their roof tops yelling that, then it would be an issue. But is some women say this… that’s some women. It’s far from all women.
> 
> 
> 
> This is so lame. Come on. So she thinks he’s hot. Do you think that before women had more choices, women did not express that they found some guy to be very attractive?
> 
> 
> 
> So what? So some woman said it. If all women were standing on their roof tops yelling that, then it would be an issue. But is some women say this… that’s some women. It’s far from all women.
> 
> I don’t even know what that means? Does is mean that his wife is upset because her husband is a bump on a log and does nothing? Well there have been men like this since the dawn of time. Men with no passions, no interests, who go to work and do thing else. And there have been men like this who don’t go to work and do thing.
> 
> Your list of things that is supposed to get me to stop and think about how women having choices is ruining men makes no sense at all. None of those mean anything at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You are afraid of women? Really?
> 
> This is why I love strong, intelligent men with a good sense of humor. They know what they want. They know who they are. And they love strong women. And they are fun to be with.


:rofl:.......you remind me of my ex-wife. - will blindly and adamantly argue with someone when they haven't even stopped for one second to understand the point of the conversation.

This is why we have a MENS clubhouse.

We are done here. Good bye.


----------



## poida

CuddleBug said:


> Men and women should of been equals from day one and finally today, in modern western countries, this is the case.
> 
> The way I see it, the more equal the hubby and wifee are, the more they both contribute to the relationship and marriage. It's not one sided and that's when fights happen.
> 
> Also, it is really difficult to have one main income and have a family. I'd say almost impossible unless you are rich or highly educated and that costs a lot of money today.
> 
> When hubby and wifee both work full time jobs, there are two main incomes. Both feel and know they are making a real difference contributing to the relationship and marriage.
> 
> Saving for a house and planning for retirement are now easy to do.
> 
> If one gets layed off due to downsizing, the other income is there and EI fills one income hole until they get another full time job.
> 
> In my parents day, mom stayed home and dad worked a full time job. After my sis and I were out of the house, mom worked a part time job she enjoyed herself.
> 
> Were I live, you need two full time incomes to buy a smaller house and 3 incomes for a large new house.
> 
> An education in my parents day was worth the total tuition costs and books. You get a degree, get a job, get paid well and pay off the student loan quickly.
> 
> Today, you get a degree, an insanely large student loan, you may not even get a job with that degree and if you do, it doesn't pay as well as in my parents day. And it takes forever to pay off the loan.
> 
> So I personally think its fantastic to have my wifee work a full time job she enjoys, has her own car, equally contributes to our marriage and retirement. Takes the pressure off me big time and we always have one main income as a back up. I can't see how people lived with only one main income, house, kids, debt and not stress out if they lost their job.:scratchhead: I was thinking like this 15+ years ago......
> 
> What makes Mrs.CuddleBug attractive to me is:
> 
> - she is smart
> - she is educated
> - she is kind, loving and faithful
> - I can trust her
> - she works full time and likes her career
> - she is finally taking care of herself
> - she is finally getting a sex drive
> - she is very frugal
> - low maintenance
> - doesn't go out and party
> - she is more passive for everything and wants me to lead, without saying it
> - I am the man, lead and run our household. She likes this.
> - she is my first mate, equal, input and assists me. She likes this.
> - She wants me to deal with many situations she can't or doesn't want to deal with


Again, nobody is arguing or disagreeing with these points. Totally agreed.

I'm talking about raw biological sexual attraction, and how this has been affected in a more female empowered society where more men have been brought up in a family unit where they are either more feminine generally or unconsciously conditioned to meet the needs of women.

Nobody is blaming women
Nobody is saying women shouldn't be equal or empowered
If anything, MEN have to catch up and adapt. 

All of this is only quite new in society so there are a lot of people (especially older people) who won't have even seen this change.

Phew.... not sure I can be clearer than that.


----------



## EleGirl

poida said:


> :rofl:.......you remind me of my ex-wife. - will blindly and adamantly argue with someone when they haven't even stopped for one second to understand the point of the conversation.
> 
> This is why we have a MENS clubhouse.
> 
> We are done here. Good bye.


Right, and you are exhibiting the ability to stop and understand the point of the conversation? :rofl:


----------



## poida

EleGirl said:


> Right, and you are exhibiting the ability to stop and understand the point of the conversation? :rofl:


Given that I started the topic, yeah, there's a good chance I know my own point of view.


----------



## EleGirl

poida said:


> Given that I started the topic, yeah, there's a good chance I know my own point of view.


We are on a public forum. A thread starts with one topic and then like all conversations meanders through different points of view, through both similar and different topics. 

You responded to something I wrote responding to posts by Ikaika and LittleDeer. 

And apparently you did not exhibit the ability to stop and understand the point of the conversation I was having with Ikaika and LittleDeer.


.


----------



## jin

I hate the team "Asian". So broad and non specific. 

When people say Asia i ask them if they mean the Indian subcontinent or far east (China Japan etc) or south East (Thailand vietnam Malaysia ) etc. 

Canadians hate being mistaken as Americans. Same goes for Chinese being mistaken for Japanese, Korean for Chinese, Cambodians for Vietnamese, Tibetans for Indians etc.


----------



## sinnister

You guys are all missing the point. You get so hung up on the minor details of conversations and argue about them to no avail.

The asian thing is not even the point. 

I truly believe if you get past the obvious male posturing, OP has a valid point about the state of manhood these days.

It's more difficult for a man to attract the "ideal" woman because quite frankly they aren't looking for the men that are seeking them out. Their own "ideal man" has changed over time so they by-pass the men that think they are the "ideal woman".

I think this is just a natural evolution given how the world is and how much easier it is to obtain basic necessities of life. Why should a woman settle for a fat, mean-spirited hot head (I'm describing myself by the way) when she can have a good looking, even tempered, genuinely nice person? What's the incentive? What benefit is it to her to go that route?

In western society a woman has the ability to obtain wealth, success and security/stability without the help of a man. So why should she ever settle for one that has less desireable characteristics than she is looking for?

If you're having trouble attracting the type of woman you want the problem isnt necessarily with society. Society is behaving how it should given where we are in our cycle. You want that hot, sex fiend, demur woman? Change yourself to get her.

OR.....

Change your attitude so that you're looking for different traits so you're happy with whom you attract.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Weminuche said:


> Here's the deal, plain and simple. How would you be, if hot girls were throwing themselves at you all the time?
> 
> If she is significantly hotter than you and both of you know it, you are going to have problems. "Hotter" is somewhat different to men and women. Men think hotter. Desirable is probably a better unisex term.
> 
> Relative strength and value on the open market is the key. If you want her more than she wants you, and you feel her options are much greater than yours, you're screwed. This is different from "marry an ugly woman." This is more like don't "outkick your coverage."
> 
> The below is a good way to understand it.


very apt quote you used. I think of it this way - a relationship IS a negotiation. just not one carried out in explicit terms. but it is a negotiation on whether to form relationship in first place, whether to take it sexual and/or to a more serious level, whether or not to sustain it at that level, whether to go on to marriage, whether to sustain the marriage once established etc.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *I can see this turning bad. *You'll feel you settled because you couldn't get a hot girl. She'll notice, even if you don't say something. You're already having to talk yourself into it. What's it going to be like in 10 years down the road, if she's a little more plump, the new love feelings are gone. Or if the kind of hot girls you want start to pay attention to you, are you going to drop her because that's what you really want?
> 
> As a fellow "average" girl, I would hate to be in a relationship with someone who felt this way. I would want him to be honest about it so I could go and find someone who liked all of me.
> 
> It's only been 1 year separated from your wife. That's not a lot of time, a lot of women would be scared away just because it's too soon for you. Keep working on yourself. Work on your self-esteem and confidence- that's where many women get the "weak and powerless" feelings from, not your nice actions.


:iagree:

POIDA - before you leave......most imp[ortant post of the day quoted - well summed up in bold. if you are not sexually
attracted to your girlfriend by now. well then you just aren't. it is not her fault. it is not your fault. only becomes your fault if you carry on the relnship pretending that you are. you'll find someone you're attracted, plus a lot of other good stuff. just have to keep looking....


----------



## ConanHub

I agree, to a point, with OP about how many young men are indeed being brought up a bit too "nice" or effeminate.

A lot of basic male attributes are being labeled as a disorder and treated like a problem that needs fixing.

Our oldest attended public school and had numerous issues with emotional turmoil and has never had anything approaching a good opposite sex relationship.

Our youngest son was home schooled and has always been years ahead of his peers in emotional maturity. He was being offered jobs at 14, everyone thought he was an adult, and at 15 he swatted the competition like flies for the affections of a beautiful young lady of 18. His competition were young men out of school in the 19 to 21 age range.

The point is not necessarily empowered women but possibly emasculated young men?

I have helped a man restore and strengthen his marriage by overcoming a very passive, mommas boy, nature he inherited and learned from his matriarchal family.

His marriage is very strong now and his wife is very satisfied with him.

Maybe this issue has always existed regardless of how much power women have had.

There was recently an article my friend, who I helped, found from the turn of the century about this issue. I will contact him and post it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

poida said:


> :rofl:.......you remind me of my ex-wife. - will blindly and adamantly argue with someone when they haven't even stopped for one second to understand the point of the conversation.
> 
> This is why we have a MENS clubhouse.
> 
> We are done here. Good bye.


 The ambiance in the Men's Clubhouse is sweet!!!


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> The ambiance in the Men's Clubhouse is sweet!!!


LOL!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

ConanHub said:


> The point is not necessarily empowered women but possibly emasculated young men?


I think this is a crucial point. The OP has mentioned his own upbringing twice now.

When we were a married couple we work together (don't buy this idea of relationships being a power struggle in our case). Everything was equal, 50/50 as far as possible.

Then, one of us got pregnant, our gender differences were brought into stark relief and it changed the dynamic of our relationship forever. We had a son. And our natural parenting styles have followed stereotypical lines.

*Climbing trees*
Aged five our son is on a fallen log and is thinking about jumping from one branch to the other, but he hasn't quite got up the nerve.

Mum: Don't jump! You'll get hurt.
Dad: Jump. I think you'll make it.
Mum: He could slip!
Dad: Take my hand... now jump...great! Now do it again.... great... Now one more time and next time you do it again without my help... great. Now on your own... go on...Great! I knew you could do it!

*Coming off his bike*
Now one of the drawback of riding a bike is that once in a while you come off it. After his first major spill, he came down hard, hard enough to embed a pebble in the visor of his helmet. If his mother got there first she would have molly-coddled him, said "that's enough cycling for today" and walked him home.

Because we have an understanding (a negotiation if you will), I go to him first if he falls off his bike. I dust him down, check him for cuts and then, all being well, immediately take him back up to the top of the hill to try again. "I will run down with you. I won't let you fall".

My son benefits from my wife's strong maternal instincts in numerous ways and we're all grateful for that. But our understanding is that sometimes she has to defer to me on how we bring up our son. I want our boy to confront his fears, to benefit in my belief in him.
_"You have never been a little boy, you've never been a son, you'll never be a husband, you'll never be a father"._
A friend of mine has a domineering wife and I told him the above. He chuckled as if my neanderthal ways would never work with his wife. From my point of view he is weak. I dread what his inability to stand up to his wife will teach his son. If father's don't stand their ground when raising their sons, mothers will fill that vacuum and help turn out another molly-coddled, mummy's boy.


----------



## ConanHub

Have to agree with you Azteca.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

sinnister said:


> I can believe this.
> 
> But can you imagine what it's like to be a single woman trying to find a long term comittment from men now a days? Her choices are cheaters, losers addicted to gaming, are feminized cry babies to soft to get anything done.
> 
> And when they naturally are attracted by more traditional men, their feelings are invalidated by every media outlet, magazine and even sometimes women in their inner circle. So they're being conditioned to be less attracted to traditional males by nurture, yet their innate physical need to couple with a strong male figure keeps creeping back into the forefront.
> 
> So what is a woman to do?


As I've said before. Life sucks for both genders, it just sucks in different ways.


----------



## JCD

The definition and requirements of manhood have changed. 

Historically, a woman needed a husband

1) to provide an income. It is very hard to feed yourself when you are flat on your back with a baby.

2) to sire children

3) to provide protection.


Where are these roles NECESSARY any more? The government has made life very safe and also provides at least a minimum subsidy. Children...well...yes. Barely a need any more due to technology.

And these are good things, but it reduces the _necessity_ of a man to 'opening jars, rubbing my back and having someone to take to mothers'. _NOT_ necessities. So...the bar is pretty high on standards of behavior demanded. (and to be fair, standards of beauty and sexuality are pretty damned high for women due to ridiculous male demands)

Divorce has also been made frivolously easy both socially and legally. In fact, if one asked a divorced person 'why didn't you work it out' they would probably take enormous offense, particularly if they divorced for frivolous reasons.

So...men are left with very little 'necessary' role. And they are trying to come to terms with this.

Now, for the most part, male needs are very simple. Sufficient food, something to fill their time, a bit of society (much less than women demand) and the occasional orgasm. And they have had to design methods for them to satisfy these core needs now that relationships have become less certain.

Now...women are also finding that men are no longer seeing them as a 'necessity' except for some very basic carnal core functions.

The negotiating positions of both sides have slipped. Interesting how that has played out socially.


----------



## jaquen

Work hard in life to become the authentic, best version of yourself, for the sake of...yourself.

That's going to make it a lot easier to attract like minded, appreciative partners. It's very hard to disrespect a person who has a strong sense of self and purpose. That does not mean you have it all together, but it does mean that your strive every day to come to full fruition. And not for the sake of a lover, but because your own drive to be the best version of you is enough unto itself. 

If you're a pleasing ass man whose entire existence revolves around contorting yourself to fit some idea you think "women" (as if all women were the same) want, well then good luck with your balless existence. That is emasculating.

A man who knows his worth can not be emasculated by a woman. Emasculation requires mutual action. If you feel nefarious, modern "women" are robbing you of your worth, the question is, why are you allowing that to happen? Deal with your own side of the street. That's the only street you've got any control over anyway.


----------



## Ikaika

jaquen said:


> Work hard in life to become the authentic, best version of yourself, for the sake of...yourself.
> 
> That's going to make it a lot easier to attract like minded, appreciative partners. It's very hard to disrespect a person who has a strong sense of self and purpose. That does not mean you have it all together, but it does mean that your strive every day to come to full fruition. And not for the sake of a lover, but because your own drive to be the best version of you is enough unto itself.
> 
> If you're a pleasing ass man whose entire existence revolves around contorting yourself to fit some idea you think "women" (as if all women were the same) want, well then good luck with your balless existence. That is emasculating.
> 
> A man who knows his worth can not be emasculated by a woman. Emasculation requires mutual action. If you feel nefarious, modern "women" are robbing you of your worth, the question is, why are you allowing that to happen? Deal with your own side of the street. That's the only street you've got any control over anyway.



Agree


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## Shoto1984

I'm late on this thread but.... I generally agree with the OP. I married a very pretty woman and it was non stop drama. I'll leave her part of it out as she has issues and is not representative. But from the husbands stand point to constantly have other men trying to get your wife's attention or outright hitting on her gets really old really fast. I even had one a*s approach her while we were leaving church on a Sunday morning with kids in tow. Online it was the same. There was a constant line up of guys wanting her attention. If you couple that with women having more and more options other then marriage and family and even a certain level of pressure on women to be "successful" ie have a career beyond mother and wife I think you have a situation where you don't want a "10" you want a "7" or "8" who has character, morals and integrity. A few months ago a video when viral of a guy using a graph to illustrate the "range" of woman you want. It got panned by many and its presented as humor but there is much truth to it.


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## Shoto1984

I give you "The Hot Crazy Matrix"

Hot Crazy Matrix - A Man's Guide to Women - YouTube


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## nuclearnightmare

I still say that a "10" that has character, loyalty and loves and respects her husband will develop (or have developed) a whole portfolio of cold shoulder techniques to quickly shoot down interest from other guys. as simple as that I think.


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## Kahlil Gibran

Interesting that a thread posted in The *Men's Clubhouse* with the title: “*Men,* the game has changed” and starts out “*Hi Guys*, I just wanted to brain dump...” ends up with 50% of the replies from women.
I think it speaks volumes to the OP’s original premise that its a new game...


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## Shoto1984

nuclearnightmare said:


> I still say that a "10" that has character, loyalty and loves and respects her husband will develop (or have developed) a whole portfolio of cold shoulder techniques to quickly shoot down interest from other guys. as simple as that I think.


I don't disagree but as alluded to in the Hot Crazy Matrix I think the number that fit into that category is extremely small.


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## Weminuche

Shoto1984 said:


> I don't disagree but as alluded to in the Hot Crazy Matrix I think the number that fit into that category is extremely small.


Actually it is a "a dude, a Tranny" according to that video.


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## Divinely Favored

poida said:


> As I said, the feminist movement doesn't realise what they have done to themselves. I'm all for equality, freedom etc etc, but it's all gone too far. Men and women have lost their natural place in society and nobody feels comfortable about it.


Ain't it the truth. It pisses my wife off....she says she would like yo find the women who started the feminist movement and kick their azz. My wife was the most beautiful woman I had seen. She was 5'04" and 110 lbs. Brown hair and blue eyes. Kinda favored Teri Clark....she was not stuck up and treated fat, mentally handicapped and those who were not as pretty all the same. Gave me great respect for her. Found out she was the "fat girl" growing up and she did not see her self as pretty. This big country boy was very happy she gave me the time of day. That was 18 yrs ago and its only getting better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ

poida said:


> Basically, what it comes down to for me is break my very physical association with love and accept my wonderful woman for who she is physically or move on and most likely be hurt but a string of women.
> 
> Perhaps I'm missing the point. Perhaps (what sounds like) my fear of being hurt is more problematic here.


It seems like you resenting the half of population because hot traditional women didn't pick you.


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## WandaJ

poida said:


> Yes I do. But let me be clear.
> 
> I'm not talking about equal opportunity to work and get paid the same and have the same rights in society.
> 
> I'm talking about a society that has become so focused on things being equal that this has spilled over in the dynamic within relationships that men and women should be the "same, equal".
> 
> We seem to have forgotten as a society that men and women and hormonally and physically different.
> 
> And the things that society expect of women and men in a relationship does not gel from a physical attraction point of view.
> 
> Women want a man who does the dishes, cooks, plays with the kids and does what he is told to do but they are attracted to the single man over the road who does the f*ck he wants, dates and f*cks who he wants and lives a single life.
> 
> See..... it's completely contradictory.


hmm. how about this: men want a woman who cooks, cleans, takes care of the house and children, but they aer attracted to the single hot woman down the road who does the f''cks she wants, dates adn f'cks whom she wants and lives a single life.

does that sound familiar????


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## Married but Happy

WandaJ said:


> hmm. how about this: men want a woman who cooks, cleans, takes care of the house and children, but they aer attracted to the single hot woman down the road who does the f''cks she wants, dates adn f'cks whom she wants and lives a single life.
> 
> does that sound familiar????


Men respect the domestically skilled wife, but want (and are attracted to) the carefree single woman.

Women want the domestically skilled husband, but respect (and are attracted to) the carefree single men.


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## WandaJ

poida said:


> Given that I started the topic, yeah, there's a good chance I know my own point of view.


yes, you know your own point of view. that's about it.


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## EleGirl

Kahlil Gibran said:


> Interesting that a thread posted in The *Men's Clubhouse* with the title: “*Men,* the game has changed” and starts out “*Hi Guys*, I just wanted to brain dump...” ends up with 50% of the replies from women.
> I think it speaks volumes to the OP’s original premise that its a new game...


I suppose that you have not notice how people post on TAM.

A thread on the woman's lounge will usually have about half the posts from men. 

We all, men and women, post in all forums equally.


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## Shoto1984

Weminuche said:


> Actually it is a "a dude, a Tranny" according to that video.


Yes, if we equate "not crazy" with "character, loyalty and loves and respects her husband" I stand corrected


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## Shoto1984

EleGirl said:


> I suppose that you have not notice how people post on TAM.
> 
> A thread on the woman's lounge will usually have about half the posts from men.
> 
> We all, men and women, post in all forums equally.


Not, "we all" but many. It really only baffles me when the OP specifically asks that responses only come from men or women. Admittedly that didn't happen here thought he did direct the post at men.


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## Kahlil Gibran

Shoto1984 said:


> Not, "we all" but many. It really only baffles me when the OP specifically asks that responses only come from men or women. Admittedly that didn't happen here thought he did direct the post at men.


Its confused me how TAM works with the Men’s Clubhouse and Ladies’ Lounge since I joined. Most other forums I’ve seen has the clubhouse open for the opposite sex to view (if they are logged in) but not respond. Otherwise, what’s difference between the Men’s Clubhouse, Ladies’ Lounge and the General Relationship Discussion?


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## Cletus

Kahlil Gibran said:


> Otherwise, what’s difference between the Men’s Clubhouse, Ladies’ Lounge and the General Relationship Discussion?


Which side is taking abuse.


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## Ripper

Shoto1984 said:


> I give you "The Hot Crazy Matrix"
> 
> Hot Crazy Matrix - A Man's Guide to Women - YouTube


Never thought I would see a link to James Yeager on this site.



Kahlil Gibran said:


> Its confused me how TAM works with the Men’s Clubhouse and Ladies’ Lounge since I joined. Most other forums I’ve seen has the clubhouse open for the opposite sex to view (if they are logged in) but not respond. Otherwise, what’s difference between the Men’s Clubhouse, Ladies’ Lounge and the General Relationship Discussion?


I don't venture into Ladies forum, so I have no idea what takes place there, but it seems like a few members of the fairer sex like to lurk in the Men's section. I get the impression a couple of them do it simply to have something to be offended by. I would prefer if the mods enforced the segregation of the two forums myself.


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## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> I don't venture into Ladies forum, so I have no idea what takes place there, but it seems like a few members of the fairer sex like to lurk in the Men's section. *I get the impression a couple of them do it simply to have something to be offended by.* I would prefer if the mods enforced the segregation of the two forums myself.


Why not go look at the threads in the Ladies' Lounge and see for yourself.


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## Ripper

EleGirl said:


> Why not go look at the threads in the Ladies' Lounge and see for yourself.


Fair enough. I am going in. If you don't hear back from me in 20 minutes.......call the President.


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## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> Fair enough. I am going in. If you don't hear back from me in 20 minutes.......call the President.


:rofl:


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## Ripper

Well, that "Clevage" thread was a massive disappointment.


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## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> Well, that "Clevage" thread was a massive disappointment.


What? No pictures? :rofl:


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## SurpriseMyself

poida - there's an age limit on blaming your parents for your shortcomings. stop blaming society, feminism, your parents, everyone but yourself. You know why you need to stop doing that - because you can't change any of those things! You can only change you. 

Change your idea about hot vs. not when dating and marrying a woman. Change your idea about power in relationships. You have a lot of thoughts that aren't serving you; start there.


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## SurpriseMyself

ConanHub said:


> Have to agree with you Azteca.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except this is a generalization, too. In my house, I'd be the one cheering my kid on. I'm the one telling them to shake it off, get back out there, stay strong. My H is the one who worries about everything. 

Funny thing is that they take his lead. My kids are scared to do tough things, even though their mom is strong. I've tried to encourage them to be brave, but neither of them are. I wish they were!


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## Methuselah

Shoto1984 said:


> I'm late on this thread but.... I generally agree with the OP. I married a very pretty woman and it was non stop drama. I'll leave her part of it out as she has issues and is not representative.


A woman's physical beauty is irrelevant. A less-attractive woman can be hit on by as many men as a pretty one, especially if she acts like a tart. It really boils down to her character.


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## Shoto1984

Methuselah said:


> A woman's physical beauty is irrelevant. A less-attractive woman can be hit on by as many men as a pretty one, especially if she acts like a tart. It really boils down to her character.


Its not 100% one way or the other but to say its "irrelevant" is contrary to much of what I have experienced in my almost 50 yrs.


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## Methuselah

Shoto1984 said:


> Its not 100% one way or the other but to say its "irrelevant" is contrary to much of what I have experienced


My Edna was quite the looker in her day (naturally she's still beautiful to this day in my eyes, but that is not germane to the discussion at hand.) Even if other men hit on her after we were married, I never had to worry, because I knew she was dedicated to me, and I could trust her implicitly to knee a cad in the groin should he get too amorous.

All that matters is you find your partner attractive, you trust her, and she (or he) has the strong morals/character traits to quickly quell any outside romantic interest.

Naturally, if a woman (or man) is insecure with herself she will seek validation of her attractiveness by encouraging men to show an interest in her. Hence my "tart" reference.



> in my almost 50 yrs.


I have a few on you


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## beatup

ConanHub said:


> The point is not necessarily empowered women but possibly emasculated young men?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fred Reed, in his usual direct and politically incorrect way makes the same point in "The Wussification of Boys"
:rofl:


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## poida

WandaJ said:


> hmm. how about this: men want a woman who cooks, cleans, takes care of the house and children, but they aer attracted to the single hot woman down the road who does the f''cks she wants, dates adn f'cks whom she wants and lives a single life.
> 
> does that sound familiar????


Well not me. I want a woman who is comfortable being a traditional wife (if that is what they want). then apply the crazy/hot chart.


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## GusPolinski

WandaJ said:


> hmm. how about this: men want a woman who cooks, cleans, takes care of the house and children, but they aer attracted to the single hot woman down the road who does the f''cks she wants, dates adn f'cks whom she wants and lives a single life.
> 
> does that sound familiar????


Not this man. If I can't bring her home to my Mama, I don't want her in my bed, in my head, or in my heart.

Period.


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## tom67

poida said:


> Well not me. I want a woman who is comfortable being a traditional wife (if that is what they want). then apply the crazy/hot chart.


Here is partly why things have gone south imo.

henrymakow.com - Exposing Feminism and The New World Order


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## BookOfJob

SurpriseMyself said:


> I've tried to encourage them to be brave, but neither of them are. I wish they were!


In general, I don't believe it is a good idea that a woman teaches/shows boys how to become men. These little humans aren't born in krypton and a woman is equipped differently that it simply is impossible that she knows every twist and turn in a man's world.

:scratchhead: , don't know. I suppose I am open for ideas on this.


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## Forest

SurpriseMyself said:


> I've tried to encourage them to be brave, but neither of them are. I wish they were!


I always told my daughter that is was better to be stung by a wasp than to be afraid of it.

Never worked. Glad she's a girl.


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## Shoto1984

Methuselah said:


> My Edna was quite the looker in her day (naturally she's still beautiful to this day in my eyes, but that is not germane to the discussion at hand.) Even if other men hit on her after we were married, I never had to worry, because I knew she was dedicated to me, and I could trust her implicitly to knee a cad in the groin should he get too amorous.
> 
> All that matters is you find your partner attractive, you trust her, and she (or he) has the strong morals/character traits to quickly quell any outside romantic interest.
> 
> Naturally, if a woman (or man) is insecure with herself she will seek validation of her attractiveness by encouraging men to show an interest in her. Hence my "tart" reference.
> 
> *Its good to know there are some good ones out there. To illustrate my point beyond our own personal experiences lets think about a common tactic employed by law enforcement agencies everywhere. They have an undercover agent or agents approach a person who has done nothing wrong and they offer him money to do something illegal. He might say no but they keep at him typically offering more and more to sweeten the deal. Some percentage of those innocent people at some point yield to the persuasion and are arrested, their reputations are destroyed and lives ruined. Now lets take that scenario and apply it to a relationship. My contention is that, given many factors that are effecting our society, the percentage of women likely to stray (walk away, whatever) has increased. Thus I support the OP's point while being happy for you and wishing more of us had your experience. *
> 
> 
> I have a few on you


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## Cletus

GusPolinski said:


> Not this man. If I can't bring her home to my Mama, I don't want her in my bed, in my head, or in my heart.
> 
> Period.


Any woman would really have to earn her stripes to be crazier than my momma.


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## Shoto1984

Kahlil Gibran said:


> Its confused me how TAM works with the Men’s Clubhouse and Ladies’ Lounge since I joined. Most other forums I’ve seen has the clubhouse open for the opposite sex to view (if they are logged in) but not respond. Otherwise, what’s difference between the Men’s Clubhouse, Ladies’ Lounge and the General Relationship Discussion?


Maybe if only males could start theads in the Man Cave (the name I prefer) and females in the Ladies Louge. Additionally a button that the thread author could use to allow the opposite sex to post or not.


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