# Manning Up: What does it mean? What’s it for?



## AFEH

For me it’s about how a man gets in touch with, understands and applies his Masculinity. Part of that “process” is understanding and working with his wife’s Femininity. But I think it wrong for a man to define his masculinity just in the terms of how he interacts with his wife. It extends much more than that, for example with his children and his parents. But it goes even further to that “great outside world”, not the least in the workplace.

Here we talk a lot about the Nice Guy and how to no longer be a Nice Guy. But where are those that want to change headed? What is their path, where are the role models or mentors? And most of all perhaps just what is Masculinity?

To look for an expression of masculinity that I could understand and perhaps agree with I searched for Archetypal Man and I got straight into “Re-Inventing the Male Archetypes” at Modern Male Archetypes.

In “my day” (I’m in my 60s) it was relatively easy to be the Hunter/Worker, Hero, Warrior, Priest and King. It was easy for a man to express and work with his masculinity and for a woman to express and work with her femininity. And mostly we were blessed and rejoiced in doing so. And mostly we had long, sometimes troubled but mostly joyful and happy marriages. There was a lot of “long term family stability” created by men being men and women being women.

I have two sons both in their late 30s. I most definitely see the Hunter/Worker, Hero, Warrior, Priest and King archetypes in my elder son. His partner, some 13 years younger is a Feminist. But she is a Feminist who is most definitely in touch with her Feminine nature and a Feminist who most definitely knows about, accepts and works with the Masculine in my son. My son tells me Feminism is a fact of life and he works around it. I think to do that he uses mainly the Archetypal Priest in him.


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## AFEH

Here are some more “archetypes of man” (5 Types Of Men Every Woman Wants http://uk.askmen.com/dating/heidi_150/168_dating_girl.html) but this time relative to women. By being Mr Romantic and Mr Man’s Man I never wanted for sex or much else from my wife in the 42 years I was with her.

1 Mr. Nice Romantic Guy
He'll show up with flowers, leave cards around your apartment and quote Keats on a whim. Think old-fashioned courtship where you're being wooed instead of sitting by the phone wondering if he'll call.

Celebrity counterparts: Cary Grant, Johnny Depp as Don Juan DeMarco

What he'll teach you: This affectionate man will show you a softer side of our male counterparts (what a relief to have someone fawn over you for a change!), all the while raising your expectations of how you wish to be treated. After realizing that there are guys out there who understand the importance of a random note or kiss in the moonlight, you'll be less likely to stay with someone who degrades or ignores you in the future.

The catch: Most of the time, these guys are in love with the idea of love. This means they will come on strong but lose momentum in the long haul as the reality of a relationship sets in (i.e. disagreements, uneventful days), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't date him and enjoy the experience. Just keep a level head while he floats around you.


2 Mr. Big Shot
He dresses sharp, talks slick and has the perfectly coiffed looks of a man straight out of a lad mag. One look at him in his tailored suit and you're toast -- which is exactly why he wears it.

Celebrity counterparts: Chris Noth as Mr. Big, any Bond

What he'll teach you: From sending your nether regions to Brazil (Mr. Big Shot doesn't do granny panties) to the proper way to age a Cabernet, you're in for a crash course in the finer way of life. Dinners will be four-star and the conversation will be witty. You'll walk away from this relationship more sophisticated and well aware of your own inner vixen.

Channel your inner Antonio Banderas or Frank Sinatra…

The catch: As the 007 of romance, he's going in for the kill. He knows exactly what he's doing and the effect it's having on you -- and every other girl around him. The odds of this guy slipping out of his suit and into a comfy relationship are low, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy the smooth ride around the town while it lasts.


3 Mr. Sexy Older Guy
He's old enough to have settled into his skin and has been involved with enough women to know that you require much more than dinner and a few martinis to get into the mood. Best of all, he never makes you late for dinner because he's playing Xbox.

Celebrity counterparts: Sean Connery, Antonio Banderas

What he'll teach you: He has a lifetime of experience to share (in and out of the bedroom), which will likely keep you on your toes (and curling them, too!). Plus, he'll show you how to see life in a different way. No matter how long it lasts or how it ends, you'll walk away worldlier -- and will never settle for a measly five minutes of foreplay again.

The catch: Despite what Demi and Ashton might say, age is more than a number. If you are just starting to get comfortable in your skin and he's shed his several times, there is a good chance you'll have issues with long-term compatibility. Sure, he's hot now, but how will you feel in 10 years? Give one another a thrill, then move onto someone you both can relate to.


4 Mr. Man's Man
He carries your bags, will defend your honour and would rather swallow glass than shave his chest or take hot wax to his eyebrows.

Celebrity counterparts: Frank Sinatra, Russell Crowe

What he'll teach you: This rough rogue will have you relishing in your femininity like no other. Why? There is something about raw masculinity that brings out the damsel in all of us. Dating this bruiser will show you how fun it can be when he shows you who the man is (think Rhett Butler when he scooped Scarlett up those stairs). Dating him will do one of two things: make you squeal with delight or appreciate your ability and right to wear the pants sometimes. Regardless, be sure to play Scarlett at least once -- trust us.

The catch: You're dying to be wined and dined, but he's already made plans to meet you down at the pub. This is the guy who gets inspired by Braveheart and cries only "out of frustration." He's also prone to affairs… with his favourite sports teams. Oh, and forget about asking him to hold your purse while you do anything -- he wouldn't dare.


5 Mr. Fun Social Guy
Whether he's out with friends or meeting the family for brunch, one thing's for certain: He's going to be the life of the party.

Celebrity counterparts: Will Farrell, Vince Vaughn

What he'll teach you: There is something very attractive about a man who's always ready to have a good time. You'll laugh a lot and learn how to go with the flow and let things slide. These types are often quite spontaneous, which means you should be ready for anything from a quickie to a quick dash to Vegas.

The catch: Most people are social because they like the company of others, but Fun Social Guys are social because they love to be the centre of attention -- and they love the excitement of something new. This poses an issue for long-term loves because: A) Who wants to be an audience member 24/7, and B) Let's face it: Relationships can get dull at times -- what will he do then? Enjoy the roller-coaster ride, but don't be afraid to walk away to more stable ground.


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## Kobo

So basically even though they are the 5 guys every woman wants they tell women not to stay with any of them for the long haul. Interesting....


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## YinPrincess

Kobo said:


> So basically even though they are the 5 guys every woman wants they tell women not to stay with any of them for the long haul. Interesting....


 I was thinking that very thing.. And somewhat relieved my husband doesn't really fit any of these types. Seems to me that the article focuses on the different characteristics that would attract women in the first place - and then the discouraging "truth" behind it. One could easily make a similar assessment of female types, and their discouraging "truths" as well. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Davelli0331

AFEH said:


> Here we talk a lot about the Nice Guy and how to no longer be a Nice Guy. But where are those that want to change headed? What is their path, where are the role models or mentors? And most of all perhaps just what is Masculinity?


Masculinity is whatever I define it to be. That is not for others to decide. To me, "manning up" is about becoming the man that I wish I was. That man that I wish I was is how I define masculinity. He is an amalgamation of men that represent to me the penultimate of some emotional facet of myself. He is part Don Draper, quiet, reserved, a rock (but without the boozing and womanizing). He is part John Wayne, brave and noble. He is part William Wallace (the Mel Gibson version, not the historical one ), so impassioned that he was willing to die for a belief. He is part George Washington, a warrior, statesman, and patriot. He is part Leonardo da Vinci, artist and thinker.

All those men blend together into what, in my mind, is the man I wish I was. My choices are of course skewed, being colored by my own life experiences. Thus, my definition and your definition may not overlap much, if at all. And I get older, my choices may shift. But becoming that man, finding that inner satisfaction of living for oneself vs living to attain approval from others, is the purpose of "manning up" IMO.


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## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> Here we talk a lot about the Nice Guy and how to no longer be a Nice Guy. But where are those that want to change headed? What is their path, where are the role models or mentors? And most of all perhaps just what is Masculinity?


It's a bit like asking what is art, isn't it? Ask a hundred people, you'll get a hundred different answers, and probably quite a lot of them will have some element of "I know what _I_ mean by art". Ditto masculinity. 

It's everything you suggested, and none of what you suggested, and a whole continuum of other things too. It's as different as the men who are on the path.

(Not very helpful, I realise, but I think it's true)


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## AFEH

Kobo said:


> So basically even though they are the 5 guys every woman wants they tell women not to stay with any of them for the long haul. Interesting....


“They” can tell them to do whatever they like, surely only a fool blindly follows. But I do think a man needs to be multiple things to keep his wife active and engaged with him. What wife doesn’t like being romanced? What wife doesn’t take pride in her man amongst men? What wife doesn’t at some time in her life need to be nursed? Surely a multifaceted man will have many ways of keeping his wife actively engaged with him?

Men change through the course of their lifetime. They evolve. If for example a man has spent the last 5 or 10 years digging himself into a deep rut such that he cannot see out of it, will it be the same man who digs himself up into the sunshine again? Or will it be a changed man? And once he’s back in the sunshine, will he revert back to the man who got himself into the rut in the first place, or will he be forever changed?

Life changes all around us, including our wives as the nest becomes empty, as they go through and come out the other side of menopause, as they pass through 50 years of age, as they lose their loved ones. Surely it’s the adaptable, multifaceted man that’s able to keep his wife by his side and engaged with him.

And what about our wife? Doesn’t the man want a woman open, warm and welcoming and unafraid of sex in the bedroom, a four star chef in the kitchen, a loving daughter for his parents to adopt as their own, a mother for his sons etc.?


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## AFEH

Sawney Beane said:


> It's a bit like asking what is art, isn't it? Ask a hundred people, you'll get a hundred different answers, and probably quite a lot of them will have some element of "I know what _I_ mean by art". Ditto masculinity.
> 
> It's everything you suggested, and none of what you suggested, and a whole continuum of other things too. It's as different as the men who are on the path.
> 
> (Not very helpful, I realise, but I think it's true)


But doesn’t that get to the very heart of it? At one time it was well known what masculinity is. Go back to the tribes, they have rituals men must go through in order to become, or at least to be “seen” as a Man. Part of my masculinity was being the sole provider for my family as it was for my forebears. What my wife earned was hers to keep as was my mothers earnings. Now that side of masculinity has to an extent been replaced by wives earning more than their husbands, or by the State. I think the sahds have perhaps the biggest problems in these things in that they lose a big part of their masculinity because they are no longer the hunter provider and have become the nurse nurturer. They kind of feminise themselves.

I’ve seen men who change and evolve to meet new challenges and others who stay the same throughout their lives. One who stayed the same lived in the same two up two down for over 50 years. Another who changed started with nothing and become a millionaire. Both will say they are happy, so certainly it’s horses for courses.


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## Voyager

What follows is a posting I made on another forum on a similar topic. That was about a year ago. My views really haven't changed much. I thought I'd offer it here to continue this discussion:

Uh, oh, I feel an essay coming on...

I think gender roles are primarily determined by society. In Western society women’s roles have changed dramatically over the last 100 years. In fact, their traditional roles of running a household and raising children are pretty much irrelevant now. Technology has compressed household chores to hours whereas they used to take days, weeks and months. After the first few years of childhood society takes over educating kids (whether it does it well or not is another topic entirely!). Birth control and enhanced medical care have made childbearing much safer and almost optional. The biological basis of having women run the household is vastly diminished. Still, up until the 1950s it was pretty much the social norm that women remained in the home.

Modern people have a biased view of women in history largely because history is based upon documents written by men about men’s activities. My opinion is that women and men of the past were quite aware of the importance of womens’ roles. Those roles were to run the household and raise the children. And we should not underestimate how time consuming and difficult those duties were. These activities do not appear in the historic record simply because it was not necessary for women to write them down. Skills and knowledge were passed mother to daughter. Hands on training, so to speak. Women’s roles were partly defined by biology. In an age before birth control and public education it was difficult for women to get away from the home. 

Men’s roles were to provide for the household (the aptly named husbandry and commerce) and protect it (warfare and politics). It is not surprising that the very earliest written records are commercial transactions from ancient Sumer. Commerce (a form of provision) and law (a form of protection) were the great catalysts for writing. Commerce and law was a man’s world. Consequently, women, their roles and their importance do not appear in the historic records. Modern interpretations infer that this absence from the records indicate that women were treated no better than slaves. But there’s no proof of this and to be honest, given human nature and the prevalence of 'love', I seriously doubt it.

I haven’t see a lot of data in the historical record that indicates either gender was unhappy with the arrangement. I think Abigail Adams’ comments to John Adams to ‘remember the ladies’ is indicative of American mores at a time when individual freedom and equality was being intently scrutinized. Women were important, but politics was not their arena. But then Abigail was extraordinary. These gender roles are, of course, a generalization. There are historic examples of people crossing the gender roles and some of them quite successfully. More often than not they were women taking on men’s roles. I suspect it was more widespread than we can see in the records. For example, in colonial America widows often ran boarding houses, inns and taverns and it was not unusual for them to have legal ownership of property (a form of protection, I might add). Wives often ran their husbands’ commercial businesses while he was away and I suspect they were equal partners in all but name.

I think what really started to change societal norms was 1) technology, 2) the two World Wars. Technology changed women’s roles immensely, mostly during the 20th century. Running a home smoothly takes only a fraction of the time it did 100 years ago. Public education freed up even more time by taking the children out of the house for most of the day. Consequently, I think women began to feel less valuable in society so they started expanding their activities. The American Civil War, World War I and World War II all opened up opportunities for women. While the men were away at war women provided for their families. In these extraordinary instances, it was socially acceptable. Of course, men were excluded from this shift. They were following their traditional roles and tolerated female participation because of wartime necessity. But it gave women a taste of what they could accomplish. It is not a coincidence that the major women’s rights movements followed major wars. But it took a number of generations of mothers teaching daughters and granddaughters before society was actually very receptive to women stepping into mens’ traditional roles. The tide finally turned in the 1960s and 1970s. Now, it’s difficult to find anyone who seriously argues that a woman has no right to participate in any aspect of society.

Men have been largely excluded from this change, though. Almost everyone will agree that men have the same rights to fill traditional female roles of running a home and educating the kids--also a result of women’s rights movements. But, regardless of the fact that these roles have lost importance due to technology, society is not that accepting of men actually doing this. Men are generally portrayed as incompetent buffoons in family matters in the media. I don’t know any man who aspired to be a stay-at-home dad. Economically, all the extra (womanly) bodies has forced down the wage earning potential of individuals. It now pretty much takes two income earners to provide for a family--so even if men wanted to shift out of the provider role, there’s a lot of pressure to keep him there. As more and more women move into traditional manly occupations, men find they have nowhere to go. ‘Manly’ jobs are now almost exclusively those where women have not yet made inroads: firefighters, police, architects, test pilots, etc. But it’s only a matter of time before women start taking on those occupations, too. They are perfectly capable of it. Physical strength is no longer a defining factor. Technology has diminished its importance, too. So... how does a man define himself now? In the past it’s always pretty much been by what he did, how he provided for and protected his family. But that’s no longer a manly domain.

It does not surprise me that there are men out there who do not know who and what they are or how to act in response to women. Our gender roles are changing--and many men are not willing participants in that change. It’s not that they deny the equality of women, only that they no longer know exactly what a man’s role in society is. So to ask men to act like men, is somewhat confusing. What, exactly, does ‘act like a man’ mean? Especially when the request is coming from a woman who ‘acts like a man.’

My personal opinion is that each individual, regardless of gender, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, kindness and to an extent, acceptance for who they are as an individual. Treating someone in a way specific to their gender, or expecting them to act in a gender specific manner, is, to my mind, not entirely authentic. It only works until you know enough about them to treat them as an individual.


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## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> But doesn’t that get to the very heart of it? At one time it was well known what masculinity is.


I suspect while there might be some common ground, way back then even different folks might have seen it differently. Like art! I like Caravaggio, the pre-Raphaelites and Angus McBride, others go for Tracey Emin or Marvel comics...



> Go back to the tribes, they have rituals men must go through in order to become, or at least to be “seen” as a Man. Part of my masculinity was being the sole provider for my family as it was for my forebears.


My anscestry is perhaps closer to "tribes" than a lot of people, and I think it's fair to say that what makes a man "masculine" as a Romani differs in quite a lot of detail from what makes a man masculine in a.n.other group. As single family out on the road, everyone had to provide, as they were able to, according to their ability. I don't know for certain, but I'd have a bet that there was a culture somewhere where the mark of a man was he sat on his keester and let the women do the work!




> What my wife earned was hers to keep as was my mothers earnings. Now that side of masculinity has to an extent been replaced by wives earning more than their husbands, or by the State. I think the sahds have perhaps the biggest problems in these things in that they lose a big part of their masculinity because they are no longer the hunter provider and have become the nurse nurturer.
> They kind of feminise themselves.


I see what you mean, but I'd say yes and no. If your culture is that there's one big pot and everyone both puts in and takes out, if you're still putting in (however you do it) you're not being kept. But I do see what you mean. 



> I’ve seen men who change and evolve to meet new challenges and others who stay the same throughout their lives. One who stayed the same lived in the same two up two down for over 50 years. Another who changed started with nothing and become a millionaire. Both will say they are happy, so certainly it’s horses for courses.


As wise a set of words as I've seen! 

What makes '_you_' masculine is what _you_ need to feel masculine. Courage, productivity, drive, leadership for example aren't in and of themselves "masculine" or "feminine".

If your definition of masculinity requires that you be a provider, then if you don't provide you _will_ feel less of a man. To someone else it's having a slew of children, or a big car or whatever. None of these are the only authentic definition of masculinity, but if they work for you, do it!

I think what I'm rambling towards is that any man on the manning up journey needs to determine what _his_ version of masculinity is (and it probably doesn't even need a "why" - it just is!) and *follow that path*. Like art, someone else might not like it, but it's all good!


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## Sawney Beane

Voyager said:


> Still, up until the 1950s it was pretty much the social norm that women remained in the home.


To the extent that getting married / pregnant was in effect an automatic resignation from a lot of jobs.




> I think Abigail Adams’ comments to John Adams to ‘remember the ladies’ is indicative of American mores at a time when individual freedom and equality was being intently scrutinized. Women were important, but politics was not their arena. But then Abigail was extraordinary. These gender roles are, of course, a generalization. There are historic examples of people crossing the gender roles and some of them quite successfully. More often than not they were women taking on men’s roles. I suspect it was more widespread than we can see in the records. For example, in colonial America widows often ran boarding houses, inns and taverns and it was not unusual for them to have legal ownership of property (a form of protection, I might add). Wives often ran their husbands’ commercial businesses while he was away and I suspect they were equal partners in all but name.


In the UK, women had no right to own anything until 1848 and the Married Womens' Property Act. It automatically belong to their male next of kin...



> While the men were away at war women provided for their families.


And supported the war effort, making ships, smelting steel, building tanks, running farms or whatever


> In these extraordinary instances, it was socially acceptable. Of course, men were excluded from this shift. They were following their traditional roles and tolerated female participation because of wartime necessity. But it gave women a taste of what they could accomplish. It is not a coincidence that the major women’s rights movements followed major wars. But it took a number of generations of mothers teaching daughters and granddaughters before society was actually very receptive to women stepping into mens’ traditional roles. The tide finally turned in the 1960s and 1970s. Now, it’s difficult to find anyone who seriously argues that a woman has no right to participate in any aspect of society.


The cork couldn't be put back in the bottle. There was no way to "un-know" the past.



> Men have been largely excluded from this change, though. Almost everyone will agree that men have the same rights to fill traditional female roles of running a home and educating the kids--also a result of women’s rights movements. But, regardless of the fact that these roles have lost importance due to technology, society is not that accepting of men actually doing this. Men are generally portrayed as incompetent buffoons in family matters in the media. I don’t know any man who aspired to be a stay-at-home dad. Economically, all the extra (womanly) bodies has forced down the wage earning potential of individuals.


Not here it hasn't. What has pushed down earing potential is having crap factory jobs offshored to India and elsewhere, not having women working.


> ‘Manly’ jobs are now almost exclusively those where women have not yet made inroads: firefighters, police, architects, test pilots, etc. But it’s only a matter of time before women start taking on those occupations, too.


Dunno where you are, and I can't say as I know many test pilots, but there's a bloody lot of women police, and in very senior positions too.


> They are perfectly capable of it. Physical strength is no longer a defining factor. Technology has diminished its importance, too.


Yep - a Heckler and Koch beats a black belt every time



> So... how does a man define himself now? In the past it’s always pretty much been by what he did, how he provided for and protected his family. But that’s no longer a manly domain.


YMMV, but it didn't necessarily in the past either.



> My personal opinion is that each individual, regardless of gender, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, kindness and to an extent, acceptance for who they are as an individual.


And each man needs to figure out what being a man means to _him_ - we have to think about it now. You can't drift along with old cliches any more. You have to be a man by choice or design now, you can't do it by default.


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## AFEH

“And the research also found a downside to the switch of childcare duties from women to men, with almost one in five stay-at-home fathers saying that their role makes them feel ‘less of a man’ …

“And while women are now able to be the family breadwinner, a third of mothers feel guilty about going out to work and leaving the children”

The rise of the stay-at-home dad: One in seven families now have father as primary carer for children | Mail Online


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## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> “And the research also found a downside to the switch of childcare duties from women to men, with almost one in five stay-at-home fathers saying that their role makes them feel ‘less of a man’ …
> 
> “And while women are now able to be the family breadwinner, a third of mothers feel guilty about going out to work and leaving the children”
> 
> The rise of the stay-at-home dad: One in seven families now have father as primary carer for children | Mail Online


If the Daily Mail told me rain was wet, I'd demand a second opinion


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## AFEH

Ha! But point me to an unbiased source of news. I don’t habitually shoot the messenger, if I dd that then I’d listen to nothing. The source is a massive insurance company. They’ll have loads of actuaries looking at these things so they don’t take any risks as is the case with insurance companies.


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## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> Ha! But point me to an unbiased source of news.


Fair comment, but the Daily Hate?!:scratchhead: Could be worse I suppose - it could be the Express. BTW who do _you_ think killed Diana?


> I don’t habitually shoot the messenger, if I dd that then I’d listen to nothing. The source is a massive insurance company. They’ll have loads of actuaries looking at these things so they don’t take any risks as is the case with insurance companies.


Insurance people? Cited _IN_ the Daily Mail? You're in a hole, man, stop digging!


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## nice777guy

Accountability.

The last two threads I've opened this morning were posted by someone stating "I have a problem and its because of xxx".

At some point you have to stop pointing fingers at what people didn't do for you when you were a child or a young adult! No one had perfect parents or a perfect upbringing! Get over it!

As for Society? You were born in the same "society" as people like Bill Gates, Marc Cuban, Dana White, Sly Stallone, Derek Jeter, John Cusak and Brad Pitt. So-called "Manly Men" still exist - in spite of feminism, women school teachers, breastfeeding (or lack of) or even the industrial revolution.

How about some accountability? Self reliance?

OWN YOUR ****!!!


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Accountability.
> 
> The last two threads I've opened this morning were posted by someone stating "I have a problem and its because of xxx".
> 
> At some point you have to stop pointing fingers at what people didn't do for you when you were a child or a young adult! No one had perfect parents or a perfect upbringing! Get over it!
> 
> As for Society? You were born in the same "society" as people like Bill Gates, Marc Cuban, Dana White, Sly Stallone, Derek Jeter, John Cusak and Brad Pitt. So-called "Manly Men" still exist - in spite of feminism, women school teachers, breastfeeding (or lack of) or even the industrial revolution.
> 
> How about some accountability? Self reliance?
> 
> OWN YOUR ****!!!


I got it. So stop blaming your parents and above all drop the baby in a pram smile.


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## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> I got it. So stop blaming your parents and above all drop the baby in a pram smile.


I think I was a bit riled up about some other things when I wrote that.

But still - accountability - self-reliance - autonomy. Makes good sense to me.

WTF is a "pram"???

And never stop smiling. Keeps your enemies off guard. Comforting to friends and strangers. Much better than a scowl.


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## nice777guy

I'm gonna go punch some kittens!


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> I think I was a bit riled up about some other things when I wrote that.
> 
> But still - accountability - self-reliance - autonomy. Makes good sense to me.
> 
> WTF is a "pram"???
> 
> And never stop smiling. Keeps your enemies off guard. Comforting to friends and strangers. Much better than a scowl.


That’s just other words for saying be two faced. Hope it works out for you. Me I’ll always be straight, as smiling and scowling as the situation requires. That way people know me and they make their choice. For me being two faced is living a Lie. I avoid that as much as I possible can. I am totally in love with AUTHENTIC. 

Pram? You have a baby pram smile. Look at your eyes! If it's working for you keep it!


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## RDJ

AFEH said:


> In “my day” (I’m in my 60s) it was relatively easy to be the Hunter/Worker, Hero, Warrior, Priest and King. It was easy for a man to express and work with his masculinity and for a woman to express and work with her femininity. And mostly we were blessed and rejoiced in doing so. And mostly we had long, sometimes troubled but mostly joyful and happy marriages. There was a lot of “long term family stability” created by men being men and women being women.


With all due respect, I have a slightly different memory than you. Maybe we came from different neighborhoods?

I recall half the men in this era as going to church on Sunday, preaching the gospel, coming home and slapping the **** out of the wife and kids, forcing themselves on an unwanting wife and kids too. The wife being so intimidated with fear of her husband and what the neighbors thought, that she pretended to be in a happy marriage to keep from getting the crap knocked out of her or being called a “no good wife”, Go home and make your a$$ hole husband happy and be a good little wife.

Men being men, and women being women? If it was so great, why did the woman’s liberation take place to start with?


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## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> That’s just other words for saying be two faced. Hope it works out for you. Me I’ll always be straight, as smiling and scowling as the situation requires. That way people know me and they make their choice. For me being two faced is living a Lie. I avoid that as much as I possible can. I am totally in love with AUTHENTIC.
> 
> Pram? You have a baby pram smile. Look at your eyes! If it's working for you keep it!


Bob - that's a bit creepy. Commenting on my smile and my eyes...

Some days I feel I have no choice but to be authentic. I'm a lousy liar - never was real good at poker. Forgetful with details - so its always been too much work for me to keep a "story" straight.

Not sure WHY you think I'm two-faced. But you are at least consistent in your disdain for me and several others!

Yes - I suppose it is nice to know where I stand.


----------



## Conrad

RDJ,

Life expectancy.

Until the discovery of penicillin, you expected to check out right around age 50-55. What was the point of acting on your mid-life crisis and doing anything about it?

Penicillin has only been with us since 1945 or so. Women's liberation came "right on time" - about a generation later - when people realized they weren't only going to be stuck 20 years with this B.S., but it could be 50 years - or MORE.


----------



## RDJ

Life, like marriage, is all about perspective!


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> With all due respect, I have a slightly different memory than you. Maybe we came from different neighborhoods?
> 
> I recall half the men in this era as going to church on Sunday, preaching the gospel, coming home and slapping the **** out of the wife and kids, forcing themselves on an unwanting wife and kids too. The wife being so intimidated with fear of her husband and what the neighbors thought, that she pretended to be in a happy marriage to keep from getting the crap knocked out of her or being called a “no good wife”, Go home and make your a$$ hole husband happy and be a good little wife.
> 
> Men being men, and women being women? If it was so great, why did the woman’s liberation take place to start with?



My mother was one of five sisters and my dad had a sister. I knew the six families very well and all but one made it right up to the day one of them passed away. One had a bad husband that hit her. She’d call my dad and he and his brother would go round and the guy would be gone. It took her a while to end it with him, she should have ended it sooner.

No way did I ever experience what you are talking about with my mates families, cousins, brother, sisters etc.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - that's a bit creepy. Commenting on my smile and my eyes...
> 
> Some days I feel I have no choice but to be authentic. I'm a lousy liar - never was real good at poker. Forgetful with details - so its always been too much work for me to keep a "story" straight.
> 
> Not sure WHY you think I'm two-faced. But you are at least consistent in your disdain for me and several others!
> 
> Yes - I suppose it is nice to know where I stand.


Creepy yes, sorry about that. And yes a smile is much better than a scowl. Here where I am a smile is always returned even from complete strangers. In fact walking into a cafe without saying good morning to total strangers sitting at the tables is considered ill mannered!

But. My stbxw is a Nice Woman and her smile was ever so practiced. I had to really look at times to see if it was real or if she was faking it. Whereas she would say I can be read like a book, which is true. But behind that smile was a whole other woman that I didn’t know, which kind of got me wondering does your stbxw really know you? Or do you hide behind that smile?

Do I have disdain for you? I guess I do in some ways and that’s concerned with the disdain you have for the whole manning up process. I just don’t get that. You were against it all the way, did little to change and then your wife went and filed for divorce from you. Me I would have much rather had at least given it a go and then failed if that was the way things were to be.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> My mother was one of five sisters and my dad had a sister. I knew the six families very well and all but one made it right up to the day one of them passed away. One had a bad husband that hit her. She’d call my dad and he and his brother would go round and the guy would be gone. It took her a while to end it with him, she should have ended it sooner.
> 
> No way did I ever experience what you are talking about with my mates families, cousins, brother, sisters etc.




Again, with all due respect, it’s all about perspective.

I have not been listening to anyone Sir, I lived it. 

4sisters, 4 brothers, every woman from my mother down was sexually abused by men in the family. While us lucky boys only got physically beaten. They finally divorced, step father was no better.

All in the name of “masculine man, woman better know her place”. Same in my wife’s family, it’s not hard to understand why she has intimacy issues, but it does not make life any easier. It’s no harder to understand why I had anger and insecurity issues, being an overly dominate male. It does not excuse me any more than my wife. It’s just reality. “Man Up”? Sure, but a real man does so from a place of honor, pride, and dignity. He treats his wife as an equal and a partner in life. Not someone who is lessor than he. Not to say that you don’t know that? I don’t know you, but I sure do a lot of men still today that lead through anger and intimidation because they think they are “real men”. So if there are women that only see the bad side of men, maybe they have good reason?


----------



## Conrad

RDJ,

If I may, you and AFEH are talking past each other. It's natural for us to take our own experience and project it on the world.

My father was a teacher. My mom was a comptroller. So, we sort of straddled the blue/white collar world. My experience tracks with AFEH's - BUT.... I now have extensive experience dealing with people from the "other" world - the one where their parents took advantage and did not protect them.

As to what a "manly man" really is...

When I think about your examples... tyrannical physically abusive men in relationships. They looked at strong men and saw the "wrong thing". They saw the physical power and strength - but misunderstood what was behind it.

A similar situation developed throughout the British Empire. Colony after colony was administered by the crown. The locals saw the desk, the suits, the administrative staff.

Look what happened when the Brits "liberated" the locals? Jokers like Robert Mugabe still sit at desks in a suit. But, the desk doesn't do you much good without the understanding of how to generate wealth and administer a modern economy.

So, Mugabe rules at gunpoint - just as the men in your examples did.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Do I have disdain for you? I guess I do in some ways and that’s concerned with the disdain you have for the whole manning up process. I just don’t get that. You were against it all the way, did little to change and then your wife went and filed for divorce from you. Me I would have much rather had at least given it a go and then failed if that was the way things were to be.


I gave it a go.

She isn't looking for a real man though. She's looking for a distraction. The men she's been attracted to have largely been UNEMPLOYED or unhappily married. The advantage of being unemployed is TIME. Time to give her what I felt was an unhealthy and unreasonable amount of attention.

Also, I have a tremendous amount of resentment for the way that she has abandoned her responsibilities as a mother.

I don't have disdain for the Manning Up process as a whole. A lot of respect for most of the "old group" on here - including you. Not so sure yet about some of these new kids though.

I look forward to trying to implement what I've learned here in FUTURE relationships.

I think I married an Alpha. And that worked for us - up until she went through an identity crisis (nice words).


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> Again, with all due respect, it’s all about perspective.
> 
> I have not been listening to anyone Sir, I lived it.
> 
> 4sisters, 4 brothers, every woman from my mother down was sexually abused by men in the family. While us lucky boys only got physically beaten. They finally divorced, step father was no better.
> 
> All in the name of “masculine man, woman better know her place”. Same in my wife’s family, it’s not hard to understand why she has intimacy issues, but it does not make life any easier. It’s no harder to understand why I had anger and insecurity issues, being an overly dominate male. It does not excuse me any more than my wife. It’s just reality. “Man Up”? Sure, but a real man does so from a place of honor, pride, and dignity. He treats his wife as an equal and a partner in life. Not someone who is lessor than he. Not to say that you don’t know that? I don’t know you, but I sure do a lot of men still today that lead through anger and intimidation because they think they are “real men”. So if there are women that only see the bad side of men, maybe they have good reason?


You’re still not getting it. You are talking about cowardly men. Men who beat women. Bullies. Not brave men. Totally different type of person to what I talk about. The masculine men I talk about step in and put themselves at risk to stop that type of cowardly, bullying behaviour.

You are like some of the women here. You take your own experience and paint your egocentric view on all men.


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - one thing that I think I've noticed about you that confuses me - is that you really "go after" certain people here.

Was thinking yesterday that I could probably find an OLD post of yours - something you may have written and forgotten about - take it - post it as my own - and I'm guessing you would disagree merely based on the person posting (me - but with your words).

I really try not to argue with you much - because I'm not even sure that you read half of what I write.


----------



## Conrad

NG,

I always read your posts with interest.

I never really did understand what seemed like derision at the stories of people like "rd" - as you labeled his journey as the 'Great Dishwasher Incident of 2010'.

It seemed you were skeptical that the guy was real.

Perhaps your experience colors your perception of how this "works" for others.

I will testify that the friendships on this board - yes from this board - helped deliver my wife and I to a far better place than we'd ever experienced.





nice777guy said:


> I gave it a go.
> 
> She isn't looking for a real man though. She's looking for a distraction. The men she's been attracted to have largely been UNEMPLOYED or unhappily married. The advantage of being unemployed is TIME. Time to give her what I felt was an unhealthy and unreasonable amount of attention.
> 
> Also, I have a tremendous amount of resentment for the way that she has abandoned her responsibilities as a mother.
> 
> I don't have disdain for the Manning Up process as a whole. A lot of respect for most of the "old group" on here - including you. Not so sure yet about some of these new kids though.
> 
> I look forward to trying to implement what I've learned here in FUTURE relationships.
> 
> I think I married an Alpha. And that worked for us - up until she went through an identity crisis (nice words).


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> I always read your posts with interest.
> 
> I never really did understand what seemed like derision at the stories of people like "rd" - as you labeled his journey as the 'Great Dishwasher Incident of 2010'.
> 
> It seemed you were skeptical that the guy was real.
> 
> Perhaps your experience colors your perception of how this "works" for others.
> 
> I will testify that the friendships on this board - yes from this board - helped deliver my wife and I to a far better place than we'd ever experienced.


Sorry. I used that label - that name - because I actually thought it was a really great example of EXACTLY the types of things that I've struggled with!

It was a simple problem - but to me - represented the HEART of MY struggles.

To this day I still believe that if I've chosen to empty the DW, or WHATEVER, I shouldn't let someone steer me off course with a lousy, passive aggressive comment. If I stop doing what I was going to do - - because someone else was an ******* - then I've been manipulated. Many other people saw it very differently.

Because I used that colorful language - I remember the issue and the insuing disagreements with much more clarity than I remember most of the other problems around here.

In therapy I often use colorful nicknames for the people that are affecting my life. If I simply called them "Mike" or "Tom" or "Jimmy" - I'm sure my therapist would forget. But she still - after too long of a time - remembers "Mike I Don't Know", "Mike I Don't Like", and "Rough Boy" and how these guys fit into my recent marriage history.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> You’re still not getting it. You are talking about cowardly men. Men who beat women. Bullies. Not brave men. Totally different type of person to what I talk about. The masculine men I talk about step in and put themselves at risk to stop that type of cowardly, bullying behaviour.
> 
> You are like some of the women here. You take your own experience and paint your egocentric view on all men.


I'm not disagreeing with you Sir. I am 100% for manning up. I have read atholk's stuff, and your post's. I have the utmost respect for what you stand for and your message. I give the same advice.

Although I have not done a good job expressing myself, I only point out that there are men that don't understand that manning up does not mean "POWER", and there are some women that have good reason not to trust a mans idea of manning up.

If you have read any of my post's, that is what I try to express, MUTUAL respect, kindness, love and admiration.

My appologies for not making myself clear.


----------



## nice777guy

RDJ said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you Sir. I am 100% for manning up. I have read atholk's stuff, and your post's. I have the utmost respect for what you stand for and your message. I give the same advice.
> 
> Although I have not done a good job expressing myself, I only point out that there are men that don't understand that manning up does not mean "POWER", and there are some women that have good reason not to trust a mans idea of manning up.
> 
> If you have read any of my post's, that is what I try to express, MUTUAL respect, kindness, love and admiration.
> 
> My appologies for not making myself clear.


This is an example of what I was saying above.

Bob - I think once a poster here has seemed to show some sympathy or understanding as to how "incorrectly" manning up could affect a man's relationship with women, you LABEL them as being "against you." Or something. On the other team maybe.

I'm not sure if you are actually reading what RDJ is posting. But when you say "You are like some of the women here" - I know that you've already put him on your "list."


----------



## Conrad

Here's the thing.

For someone like rd, he likely was emptying the dishwasher to help his wife. Now, we can speculate that he had an ulterior motive for helping his wife - perhaps more together time where he may get laid, whatever.......

There would be more than one way to handle that fitness test.

I would imagine a guy with a sense of humor and a sense of duty (like you) would use some sort of humor to deflect the beatching.

I do realize you just wish your wife would simply have cared whether the dishes were done or not.




nice777guy said:


> Sorry. I used that label - that name - because I actually thought it was a really great example of EXACTLY the types of things that I've struggled with!
> 
> It was a simple problem - but to me - represented the HEART of MY struggles.
> 
> To this day I still believe that if I've chosen to empty the DW, or WHATEVER, I shouldn't let someone steer me off course with a lousy, passive aggressive comment. If I stop doing what I was going to do - - because someone else was an ******* - then I've been manipulated. Many other people saw it very differently.
> 
> Because I used that colorful language - I remember the issue and the insuing disagreements with much more clarity than I remember most of the other problems around here.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> RDJ,
> 
> If I may, you and AFEH are talking past each other. It's natural for us to take our own experience and project it on the world.
> 
> My father was a teacher. My mom was a comptroller. So, we sort of straddled the blue/white collar world. My experience tracks with AFEH's - BUT.... I now have extensive experience dealing with people from the "other" world - the one where their parents took advantage and did not protect them.
> 
> As to what a "manly man" really is...
> 
> When I think about your examples... tyrannical physically abusive men in relationships. They looked at strong men and saw the "wrong thing". They saw the physical power and strength - but misunderstood what was behind it.
> 
> A similar situation developed throughout the British Empire. Colony after colony was administered by the crown. The locals saw the desk, the suits, the administrative staff.
> 
> Look what happened when the Brits "liberated" the locals? Jokers like Robert Mugabe still sit at desks in a suit. But, the desk doesn't do you much good without the understanding of how to generate wealth and administer a modern economy.
> 
> So, Mugabe rules at gunpoint - just as the men in your examples did.


I’m truly amazed at just how much this manning up is misunderstood by some. There must be some pretty awful “images of man” in some peoples heads. It is the opposite of those images but they go on insisting it’s the same.

There is a lot of projection that goes on RDJ being a case in point. He’s unfortunate enough to have had really bad experiences and projects those onto all men in all countries etc. of that generation. It’s the same with the victim feminists. So they either persecute Man or try to wussify him. They just don’t like that word Masculine, it’s like a red rag to a bull to them and they try and stamp it out. But my model and my experience of Masculine Man is totally different to theirs.

But not everything is an egocentric projection. Some of us are more than capable of living more than an inch or so outside our own heads.

At one time Zimbabwe was capable of feeding Africa with what she grew. Can’t even feed herself now.


----------



## Halien

RDJ said:


> Again, with all due respect, it’s all about perspective.
> 
> I have not been listening to anyone Sir, I lived it.
> 
> 4sisters, 4 brothers, every woman from my mother down was sexually abused by men in the family. While us lucky boys only got physically beaten. They finally divorced, step father was no better.
> 
> All in the name of “masculine man, woman better know her place”. Same in my wife’s family, it’s not hard to understand why she has intimacy issues, but it does not make life any easier. It’s no harder to understand why I had anger and insecurity issues, being an overly dominate male. It does not excuse me any more than my wife. It’s just reality. “Man Up”? Sure, but a real man does so from a place of honor, pride, and dignity. He treats his wife as an equal and a partner in life. Not someone who is lessor than he. Not to say that you don’t know that? I don’t know you, but I sure do a lot of men still today that lead through anger and intimidation because they think they are “real men”. So if there are women that only see the bad side of men, maybe they have good reason?


I think there is one aspect of 'manning up' that you may be missing here. These 'masculine men' you point out were cowards. Think about it. What is the number one thing that most married men are afraid to do? They are afraid that being open, loving and passionate will make them seem weak. They try to dominate their women with the traits that they are more comfortable with. A real, masculine man will not be threatened by the thought of treating his wife as his intellectual equal or superior, because he is confident in himself. 

I think you've seen common examples of men who think they are 'masculine men', but they are just pitiful imposters.

In my case, I don't have all the answers, so I'm not an expert. Conrad, Deejo and AFEH have helped me to see that I had developed tunnel vision in my own relationship. Much of this was because of my own perceptions of others around me when I was a kid also.


----------



## RandomDude

^ You don't expect me to start reciting poetry or singing love songs do you? =O

I'm only in the mood for lovey doveys after ballsacs are drained.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - one thing that I think I've noticed about you that confuses me - is that you really "go after" certain people here.
> 
> Was thinking yesterday that I could probably find an OLD post of yours - something you may have written and forgotten about - take it - post it as my own - and I'm guessing you would disagree merely based on the person posting (me - but with your words).
> 
> I really try not to argue with you much - because I'm not even sure that you read half of what I write.


My wife did that sort of thing, made things up in her head and came to her own conclusions and judgements. She didn't need my participation whatsoever. But at least you’ve expressed yours.


----------



## Halien

RandomDude said:


> ^ You don't expect me to start reciting poetry or singing love songs do you? =O
> 
> I'm only in the mood for lovey doveys after ballsacs are drained.


Nope, but shame on you for not serenading your wife if you're already known for doing so.

I was telling my wife about this site, and how sex is such an issue in so many relationships. She warned me that karma is an ironic b!tch, so maybe I'm covered if I come back in my next three re-incarnations as a monk.


----------



## RandomDude

Conrad said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> For someone like rd, he likely was emptying the dishwasher to help his wife. Now, we can speculate that he had an ulterior motive for helping his wife - perhaps more together time where he may get laid, whatever.......
> 
> There would be more than one way to handle that fitness test.
> 
> I would imagine a guy with a sense of humor and a sense of duty (like you) would use some sort of humor to deflect the beatching.
> 
> I do realize you just wish your wife would simply have cared whether the dishes were done or not.


Wait... what what? 

=/



> Nope, but shame on you for not serenading your wife if you're already known for doing so.


:rofl:
No, I sing, out of BOREDOM at work, but since I managed to learn vibrato/tone, she expects it outta me... bah! Nah think I'll hold off a little more actually, save it for another dramatic occasion, not routine! Besides I like to have a few spare aces up my sleeve.



> I was telling my wife about this site, and how sex is such an issue in so many relationships. She warned me that karma is an ironic b!tch, so maybe I'm covered if I come back in my next three re-incarnations as a monk.


Karma dictates I should not be living this way, but I am, I should be dead or in jail, but I'm alive and married to a woman I love with a daughter who has yet to annoy me. Therefore, Karma does not exist in my mentality. Personally I felt karma's an over-hyped and exaggerated action/consequence thing, I'm more for realism.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> This is an example of what I was saying above.
> 
> Bob - I think once a poster here has seemed to show some sympathy or understanding as to how "incorrectly" manning up could affect a man's relationship with women, you LABEL them as being "against you." Or something. On the other team maybe.
> 
> I'm not sure if you are actually reading what RDJ is posting. But when you say "You are like some of the women here" - I know that you've already put him on your "list."


No. We had a CONFLICT. We stuck with it for a bit. Conrad stepped in to help out. RDJ made himself one heck of a lot clearer. We now have mutual understanding and we are in agreement. We CONFLICTED and ASSERTED ourselves. The conflict is resolved (I think). And it all happened very quickly.


----------



## RandomDude

Oh you mean RDJ? Darn it... people should stop using RD... >.<


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> My wife did that sort of thing, made things up in her head and came to her own conclusions and judgements. She didn't need my participation whatsoever. But at least you’ve expressed yours.


Bob - I'm still trying to figure stuff out.

I appreciate most of what you write. You've written to me - privately - on many occaisions. And the tone - in private - is always so much different than it is openly on the board. I think my writings with you - in public or private - have been fairly consistent (yet - I'm two faced?).

I had someone PM me yesterday - someone who I believe respects you and your opinion - asking why I thought you disliked me so much. So no - I'm not just making things up.

Even Conrad said above that you and RDJ were "speaking past one another." To me - that's another way of saying that you weren't reading what he actually wrote. Conrad - correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## nice777guy

Also - manning up is a topic that comes and goes for me. Like so many other things in life - just when I think I understand it, I get a curveball thrown my way.

I can't "win" here - that's not my goal. I'm truly just trying to offer my opinions and understand where and why I seem so different from some of the others.


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you Sir. I am 100% for manning up. I have read atholk's stuff, and your post's. I have the utmost respect for what you stand for and your message. I give the same advice.
> 
> Although I have not done a good job expressing myself, I only point out that there are men that don't understand that manning up does not mean "POWER", and there are some women that have good reason not to trust a mans idea of manning up.
> 
> If you have read any of my post's, that is what I try to express, MUTUAL respect, kindness, love and admiration.
> 
> My appologies for not making myself clear.


Many thanks for making it clearer.


----------



## RDJ

Conrad said:


> Here's the thing.
> For someone like rd, he likely was emptying the dishwasher to help his wife. Now, we can speculate that he had an ulterior motive for helping his wife - perhaps more together time where he may get laid, whatever.......


OK, just for the record. "someone like rd".

I empty the dishwasher.
I vaccum.
I cook 1/2 the meals.
I even scrub toilets.

But I do these things because I am a quality man. It is my house too, and I respect and honor my wife. (even when she is beothcing)

I do NOTHING to get "laid", in fact, I will NOT have sex with my wife for any reason other than mutual desire, respect, and admiration. It took many a **** test and walking away from obligatory, unmeaningfull, unpassionate sex to prove that to her.

So with all due respect, keep your speculations "in check".


----------



## Conrad

RDJ,

I need to apologize now.

I'm using shorthand referring to a poster who came in here distraught over the "Great Dishwasher Incident of 2010."

His handle was/is rd2010. He still visits from time to time.

He's a good guy also.

Sorry about confusing you.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - I'm still trying to figure stuff out.
> 
> I appreciate most of what you write. You've written to me - privately - on many occaisions. And the tone - in private - is always so much different than it is openly on the board. I think my writings with you - in public or private - have been fairly consistent (yet - I'm two faced?).
> 
> I had someone PM me yesterday - someone who I believe respects you and your opinion - asking why I thought you disliked me so much. So no - I'm not just making things up.
> 
> Even Conrad said above that you and RDJ were "speaking past one another." To me - that's another way of saying that you weren't reading what he actually wrote. Conrad - correct me if I'm wrong.


Nice Guys have a PHENOMENAL NEED TO BE LIKED! I am not a Nice Guy. Sure I like to be liked but it’s not a driving need for me like it is for you. It means I am far more likely to speak my mind than you probably ever will be. But at the very least you know where you stand with me.

When I was doing some executive coaching I called a director I reported to a few years back. I asked him what is the single best thing I can do to improve myself, he came straight back with “Learn to be two faced”! I asked him how much and was told about 20% of the time. Being two faced is I feel essential at times, I can think of many examples. For example, there’s a woman who was a friend of my stbxw and myself. Saw each other at least twice a week. Wife leaves and the woman totally blanks me in social settings! Then after nearly two years she walks up and wants kisses on the cheeks! I felt like telling her to frig off, do I?

But here isn’t straight talking the way to be? Do you want to be pussied with? If you think I’m being hard on you you should see my mates and how they are on me when they want to help me. To try and make me see sense. Of course it’s their sense they want me to see. I never take offence at that stuff even though I may be in total disagreement with them and think they’re perhaps talking out of their rear end.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Nice Guys have a PHENOMENAL NEED TO BE LIKED! I am not a Nice Guy. Sure I like to be liked but it’s not a driving need for me *like it is for you. *


Simple question.

If I really wanted to be liked so badly, why would I come in here - the Men's Clubhouse - and bother to disagree with people like yourself?


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> Many thanks for making it clearer.


No worries mate. Now that we understand each other, we can move on to bigger and better conversations.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Simple question.
> 
> If I really wanted to be liked so badly, why would I come in here - the Men's Clubhouse - and bother to disagree with people like yourself?


NG,

I'm going to dip a toe a little further in the water here.

My perception is that you enjoy it when the ladies who post in this forum support you and think well of you.

It seems you stretch for that at times.

Only you know for sure.


----------



## jayde

nice777guy said:


> Simple question.
> 
> If I really wanted to be liked so badly, why would I come in here - the Men's Clubhouse - and bother to disagree with people like yourself?


It doesn't matter to you (really) if no one likes you here.

You know that you have zero chance of anyone here sleeping with you.

????? I thought this was a basic premis of NMMrNG. Be nice = get laid (???) Maybe I'm digressing.


----------



## RDJ

Conrad said:


> RDJ,
> 
> I need to apologize now.
> 
> I'm using shorthand referring to a poster who came in here distraught over the "Great Dishwasher Incident of 2010."
> 
> His handle was/is rd2010. He still visits from time to time.
> 
> He's a good guy also.
> 
> Sorry about confusing you.


No problem with you either. I guess I had to get through the door before I could sit on the couch.

It's all good!


----------



## nice777guy

jayde said:


> It doesn't matter to you (really) if no one likes you here.
> 
> You know that you have zero chance of anyone here sleeping with you.
> 
> ????? I thought this was a basic premis of NMMrNG. Be nice = get laid (???) Maybe I'm digressing.


It somewhat matters if I'm liked. I don't want to seem like a total jerk.

Part of my issue with Bob - if people think you are attacking them personally, they will often miss your point.

I have NO illusions regarding my comments here ever leading to sex.

And yes - being "Nice" = getting laid or getting "something" you want, but are afraid to ask for directly;


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Simple question.
> 
> If I really wanted to be liked so badly, why would I come in here - the Men's Clubhouse - and bother to disagree with people like yourself?


Are you saying you do not have a phenomenal need to be liked?

If that is the case, then reckon you should change your label because surely that is at the very core of being a Nice Guy. It’s deep within your psyche stuff yet you are saying it’s not there. That’s exceptionally confusing.

Are you indeed saying that you are not a Nice Guy?


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> I'm going to dip a toe a little further in the water here.
> 
> My perception is that you enjoy it when the ladies who post in this forum support you and think well of you.
> 
> It seems you stretch for that at times.
> 
> Only you know for sure.


THAT'S an interesting question!

I think there is some truth to what you are saying.

I don't know if I "stretch" for it - not sure if I have to stretch. I think I am just simply somewhat more in tune with some of the women here on the forum than I am some of the more common poster's in the Men's Clubhouse. I don't believe that its an act or a stretch - I don't think it is.

Conrad - would you believe me if I said that I don't really know for sure? And that this is EXACTLY part of the reason I'm bouncing around here today?


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Are you saying you do not have a phenomenal need to be liked?
> 
> If that is the case, then reckon you should change your label because surely that is at the very core of being a Nice Guy. It’s deep within your psyche stuff yet you are saying it’s not there. That’s exceptionally confusing.
> 
> Are you indeed saying that you are not a Nice Guy?


For most of my marriage, I felt my job was to keep the peace, even if it cost me my own happiness.

I do this in other places with other people as well - but marriage is where it has hurt me the most.

I do think it IS deep within my psyche to want to keep the peace.

BUT...I'm learning. I'm trying to be more direct. Trying to speak my mind. And trying to convince myself that conflict is necessary and important in any meaningful relationship.

And for what its worth - I picked my name LONG before I had an understanding of what that "title" meant on this forum - especially here in the Men's clubhouse.

But - I've KEPT the name because it is a large part of why I'm here. I embrace my "code name" - and even though it was unintentional to start with - it DOES reflect what I'm trying to work through. Married or not.


----------



## AFEH

Well I’ll jump right in the water NG and say that you said you prefer spending time with women! It is far away from me to say I think you are right or wrong or even to have an opinion on it as far as you are concerned.

But. I never ever set out or desire to spend time with a group of women. Once I found myself sat at a table by myself with 5 women friends. Their husband’s were practicing in their band and I don’t do music. I lasted 5 minutes at that table before I made my excuses and left.

Mixed company I’m fine. Sports and business I’m fine. But spending time with a group of women and the types of things they talk about, I’m off!


----------



## RandomDude

^ Start flirting, it kills the boredom, I do that whenever the missus invites her friends over and I've been drinking.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH,

My daughter is gay. Lately, as we've watched her entering the dating scene, my wife has been wondering how "female couples" handle things with twice the drama.

I have to admit, that's a horrifying thought.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Well I’ll jump right in the water NG and say that you said you prefer spending time with women! It is far away from me to say I think you are right or wrong or even to have an opinion on it as far as you are concerned.
> 
> But. I never ever set out or desire to spend time with a group of women. Once I found myself sat at a table by myself with 5 women friends. Their husband’s were practicing in their band and I don’t do music. I lasted 5 minutes at that table before I made my excuses and left.
> 
> Mixed company I’m fine. Sports and business I’m fine. But spending time with a group of women and the types of things they talk about, I’m off!


That's not quite it either. I'm certainly not looking for a "group" of women.

I love where this is going - but sadly - I have other commitments at this time. I also didn't mean to hi-jack YOUR thread with a "please psychoanalyze Nice777guy" invitation!

I also want to think carefully about my responses. I usually answer on impulse - and usually feel just fine about it.
But this is a topic that I am personally taking very seriously right now.

In a nutshell - does it make me less of a man if I prefer the "personal" company of women?


----------



## jayde

nice777guy said:


> For most of my marriage, I felt my job was to keep the peace, even if it cost me my own happiness. ...
> 
> I do think it IS deep within my psyche to want to keep the peace.
> 
> BUT...I'm learning. I'm trying to be more direct. Trying to speak my mind.


These comments resonated with me and my marriage. 

NG - from my experience, since I have started being more direct and putting aside fears of 'consequences' for speaking my mind and upsetting the peace - the true 'peace' for me and prevalent throughout my home and family far surpasses the 'conflict avoidant' peace that was the norm. And this, in ways that I would not have believed someone else telling me so.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> For most of my marriage, I felt my job was to keep the peace, even if it cost me my own happiness.
> 
> I do this in other places with other people as well - but marriage is where it has hurt me the most.
> 
> I do think it IS deep within my psyche to want to keep the peace.
> 
> *BUT...I'm learning. I'm trying to be more direct. Trying to speak my mind. And trying to convince myself that conflict is necessary and important in any meaningful relationship.*
> 
> And for what its worth - I picked my name LONG before I had an understanding of what that "title" meant on this forum - especially here in the Men's clubhouse.
> 
> But - I've KEPT the name because it is a large part of why I'm here. I embrace my "code name" - and even though it was unintentional to start with - it DOES reflect what I'm trying to work through. Married or not.


Well done. I don’t patronise NG but 10 out of 10. And well done for sticking with me.

Conflict avoidance is all part of the Nice Guy thing. The very real problem with that is everything you avoid stacks up over the years, it never ever gets resolved. That was a very big part of what brought my marriage down. My stbxw is a classic conflict avoider. She doesn’t assert herself and she wont speak her mind. There are so many unresolved issues in our past that I honestly believe they are impossible to solve even though we both still love one another. I do know what I am talking about with these things. I used to coach people NG, I got sales guys doing $750,000 a year doing over $2,000,000 with exactly the same assets! But I could never coach my wife to not avoid conflict, to speak her mind and assert herself in all the time I was with her. It is deep in the psyche stuff and if you are looking in there then well done to you.

But conflict doesn’t have to be with weapons drawn. You don’t have to assert yourself by shouting and getting angry. I believe it to be mainly a boundary thing, our personal rules of how we will and how we wont be treated. Our rules are there to protect our values, what we FUNDAMENTALLY believe in. We change our values and rules and then we watch our behaviour change!


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> In a nutshell - does it make me less of a man if I prefer the "personal" company of women?


Not if they're naked.

(Hey, I'm just kidding.)


----------



## AFEH

RandomDude said:


> ^ Start flirting, it kills the boredom, I do that whenever the missus invites her friends over and I've been drinking.


:rofl:

No no no! I deliberately DON'T flirt being a man living by myself and valuing the friendships with my mates!


----------



## Deejo

For the uninitiated ...
This is the 'Great Dishwasher Incident of 2010' thread:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18584-calling-all-men-i-need-your-help.html

I think this is actually a pretty good discussion.

I also think that it's a testament of Nice777Guy's willingness to get his hands dirty.

This stuff isn't easy. From my perspective, that is one of the reasons that I used to take great umbrage at those who dismissed or minimized it. Despite the fact that at one time I was one of those who dismissed and minimized it.

It's still easy for me to remember the days when BBW and MEM were the lone pair of voices regarding men coping with sexless marriages.

Honestly? I don't think either of them ever used the term 'Man Up'. I don't know how it got introduced into our lexicon, but I do know that I started using it with regularity, and for me, it still embodies as N777G has stated in the past; "a process"

And that process is going to present, and be executed very differently by almost every man choosing to take it for a spin.

Frankly, I have been nothing short of astounded at the difference in how I am perceived by, interacted with, and treated by others, both male and female, since stepping off the ledge.

I have said it many times before, I'm still the same guy. I just make different choices surrounding my behavior, which in turn garners different responses from those I'm dealing with. 

My philosophy was simple. You want to be good at something? You need to practice. Practice enough, and it looks and feels effortless.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

jayde said:


> These comments resonated with me and my marriage.
> 
> NG - from my experience, since I have started being more direct and putting aside fears of 'consequences' for speaking my mind and upsetting the peace - the true 'peace' for me and prevalent throughout my home and family far surpasses the 'conflict avoidant' peace that was the norm. And this, in ways that I would not have believed someone else telling me so.


Total agreement here. Conflict avoidance will eventually sink your ship, it's just a matter of time. In every broken marriage there were two participants. If one partner kept everything in to avoid conflict, they are an equal participant in the breakup with the other partner that may have treated them disrespectfully for sharing. This is not always obvious to someone who thinks they are completely right and their partner is completely wrong


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> That's not quite it either. I'm certainly not looking for a "group" of women.
> 
> I love where this is going - but sadly - I have other commitments at this time. I also didn't mean to hi-jack YOUR thread with a "please psychoanalyze Nice777guy" invitation!
> 
> I also want to think carefully about my responses. I usually answer on impulse - and usually feel just fine about it.
> But this is a topic that I am personally taking very seriously right now.
> 
> *In a nutshell - does it make me less of a man if I prefer the "personal" company of women?*


Less of a man? I don’t think so, I doubt it. But a different man. I guess a lot depends on what you talk about when with a group of women and your motivation for doing it.

And I think it very different spending time with one woman than it is with a group of women. I have women friends with no “romance”, but I spend time with them by themselves and we talk about and do all sorts of stuff together.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Less of a man? I don’t think so, I doubt it. But a different man. I guess a lot depends on what you talk about when with a group of women and your motivation for doing it.
> 
> And I think it very different spending time with one woman than it is with a group of women. I have women friends with no “romance”, but I spend time with them by themselves and we talk about and do all sorts of stuff together.


Yet - I feel as though if I "agree" with women on this board - I'm viewed as less than a man...

But to me - its almost like being "Man Enough" to wear pink. Its a ridiculous notion - that a color could make you feminine. But I used to have a pink shirt - I don't do stripes or patterns much so it was really just another color when I bought it. I got 100x more comments from that shirt alone than all the other clothes I've worn in my life. Good and backhanded.

So - to ME - being a Man - means speaking my mind - even if I'm agreeing with the opposite sex.

Although - I am a bit puzzled - as to why I so often agree with the opposite sex - and if that "could" be some problem that my psyche refuses to acknowledge.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Total agreement here. Conflict avoidance will eventually sink your ship, it's just a matter of time. In every broken marriage there were two participants. If one partner kept everything in to avoid conflict, they are an equal participant in the breakup with the other partner that may have treated them disrespectfully for sharing. This is not always obvious to someone who thinks they are completely right and their partner is completely wrong


In my experience it’s the one who avoided the conflict that had all the bitterness and resentment. And with that stuff sitting between the couple it eventually kills off the love that was there, the love certainly doesn’t grow or get any deeper.

Plus it’s the one who avoids conflict that has the passive aggression. I think there’s two types of anger, the red, hot, active anger and the white, cold, passive anger. The conflict avoider has the latter anger. Both types of anger are I think one of the base, primitive emotions and are in us all. And both do damage to the relationship.

There’s something else as well. And that’s that I think the conflict avoider eventually becomes deluded. Quite simply because they didn’t go into a conflict and seek to REALLY UNDERSTAND what was going on. They just used their imagination to fill in the blanks and come to their own conclusions and judgements. And their punishment is their passive aggression. And because the conflict avoider really does set out to deliberately cause pain, they think others are the same even when they accidentally cause them pain. And so the conflict avoider becomes paranoid as well as deluded. It’s obviously “worse case stuff”, but that’s how I see how it all pans out.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Anyone who has zero interest in whether others like them or not -could be labeled as "Schizoids"....

FAQ of Schizoid Personality Type



nice777guy said:


> It somewhat matters if I'm liked. I don't want to seem like a total jerk.
> 
> Part of my issue with Bob - if people think you are attacking them personally, they will often miss your point.


I think this is very balanced. I feel this way too. I don't want to come off as a Bi***. Believe me, I am capable. I have to temper my posts somewhat too. It doesn't mean we are sucking up to anyone here, but we should be careful how we word things to not *purposely offend, *this also shows good listening skills. The other day I typed the 1st thing I was thinking, and after I got off the computer, I said to myself, I am going to catch hell for that .... and I was right!! ...but you know what .....I was RUDE ! I could have said the same darn thing in a much better manner -and not put the other poster on the defensive.

Do we want to make enemies? If so, what does that say about us ?? 

Listen some of you MANLY beasts who like to look down on Nice Guy's manliness ----he said this....


> I do think it IS deep within my psyche to want to keep the peace.


 Unless you are born a with a Phlegmatic temperment -you are NOT going to understand this, it IS a part of their psyche. I know -my husband is like this..... should I throw him out? Should I look down on him, should others be able to take crack shots at him for being this way . He wouldn't care anyway -but I do! It gets under my skin. 

So here I am Conrad, one of those women jumping to give some praise to Nice Guy, will he be a better man to just Ignore me, ignore us women,who he identifies with -in honesty , many times. Nice guy, ignore me totally!! But hey, I still like you!! You are much more approachable than many men here in this Clubhouse. If that means you are still struggling somehow, I guess I prefer the strugglers then , even as friends, cause the ones who feel they have all arrived -- they come off rather COLD & heartless to me, like us women are dogs or something. 

I had to be authentic and say what I was thinking.


----------



## AFEH

^ I reckon you are taking these things as a personal insult of your husband. They aren’t.

Plus. NG is bouncing around a bit in here. BECAUSE HE WANTS TO. He WANTS TO CHANGE! Change does not come easy and it does not come without a bit of pain. No pain no gain. We can all patronise the guy, after all he is very nice.

Your husband does not want to change. You do not want your husband to change. IT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION!

And why on earth you think he needs a wet nurse is way beyond me.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> I had to be authentic and say what I was thinking.


Oh, how often I think your husband is one lucky SOB.


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> Yet - I feel as though if I "agree" with women on this board - I'm viewed as less than a man...
> 
> But to me - its almost like being "Man Enough" to wear pink. Its a ridiculous notion - that a color could make you feminine. But I used to have a pink shirt - I don't do stripes or patterns much so it was really just another color when I bought it. I got 100x more comments from that shirt alone than all the other clothes I've worn in my life. Good and backhanded.
> 
> So - to ME - being a Man - means speaking my mind - even if I'm agreeing with the opposite sex.
> 
> Although - I am a bit puzzled - as to why I so often agree with the opposite sex - and if that "could" be some problem that my psyche refuses to acknowledge.


I think that lots of us guys understand what you are saying, and don't automatically asume that it makes you less of a man. Let's face it, people on a website can't see the full spectrum of who you are. Who could possibly judge your motivations?

In my job, the way way I have to be is pretty frightening to my family. It's not bad, or angry, but it is just very blunt and direct. And as a married man, you can't always be open to talk to female friends and coworkers about issues that you can discuss here. Why would I want to build friendships with male electronic bytes on the screen who are almost identical to my 70,000 male counterparts in my company?

Regarding pink shirts - When I moved to my current work location from the east coast, the office attire was drab, mostly black white and gray. Solid ties. No stripes. I announced to my new work group that Thursdays were to be a voluntary Miami Thursday. Pastels were preferred. Bright colors. Ties could be colorful if customers were coming in, but not required otherwise. It took. I'd guess that about 150 people or so around us now do Miami Thursdays. The real purpose for it, however, was just because the men and women in the group had grown used to being herded and treated like cattle, in my opinion, and had a Dilbert mentality. When my last VP retired, he had a scowl on his face when he saw me, and said, "you're that guy with the stripes, aren't you?"


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> I’m truly amazed at just how much this manning up is misunderstood by some. There must be some pretty awful “images of man” in some peoples heads.


There are indeed. All they have to be is men in positions of power and authority.
If most or all of the men you saw in positions of power and authority as a child were honourable, accountable, and showed moral courage to back up their strength, then "manning up" as it's used here makes sense. If most of the men used their strength to get what they wanted regardless of the impact on others, or to impose their will by physical threats or force, then the last thing you'd want to see is anyone become more of a "man". Manning up is derived from a particular definition of what a man is and ought to be. If your experience of men has lead you to the belief that men are not like that, manning will not seem like a good thing...




> It is the opposite of those images but they go on insisting it’s the same.


But if those images defined masculinity to _you_, based on experience, you might well. By analogy, my experience has lead me to believe the most non-Romani people are OK. If my personal experience was of really rampant discrimination and violence towards Romanis, my view of the rest of you might not be so favourable!

On the other hand, there are plenty of Romani who's experience of gorgio isn't so great. My view might still be right, but their experience isn't less real.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> ^ I reckon you are taking these things as a personal insult of your husband. They aren’t.


 Listen, I KNOW they are not. Believe me, I am over this. For a time I was kinda irritated. BUT....I guess I SEE Niceguy as being Authentic . Maybe I am missing it. 

His wife left him, maybe she is the fool. And after she realizes what is all out there at her age, she might be dragging her self back to him. It happens. Some men are NEVER going to be like some other men, My husband could give a rats ass about sports & hunting. Would he RATHER sit with some ladies -kinda laying back in the background listening to them WHINE about whatever, over a bunch if hyped Sports fanatics getting all loud over some football - he'd take the women. Really. You can't relate to that, so what. It doesn't make you a better man. 




> Plus. NG is bouncing around a bit in here. BECAUSE HE WANTS TO. He WANTS TO CHANGE! Change does not come easy and it does not come without a bit of pain. No pain no gain. We can all patronise the guy, after all he is very nice.


 I agree, Pain is good. I don't read here as much as the rest of you , so maybe you have gleemed more of his talking out of both sides of his mouth. I just catch something here or there. 



> Your husband does not want to change. You do not want your husband to change. IT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION!


 You are very right about this. I've said this before, after coming here and reading how the majority of men really are - I am more thankful than ever he IS the way he is. 

BUt still I FEEL the judgement from men on other men -for things out of thin air almost. Just for a comment-that he thinks differently. He is man enough to stand up and reply back what he thinks -so ....keep throwing it --- he keeps coming back for more, so he is up to the task. Good for him, I'd stay around and battle with you all too. I guess when he starts getting RUDE, he has "arrived". There is a tip for you Nice Guy ! 



> And why on earth you think he needs a wet nurse is way beyond me.


I have no desire to be his Mother, I could be offened by this but why, that would be silly. So serioulsy, any input by someone of the oppposite sex, should be tossed aside -always ? Is that your position AHEF ? 

I have 5 sons to raise, this subject -in its own right, is important to ME. My husband doesn't care about this stuff, he is not going to read. I don't baby my sons, I want them to DO for themselves, be thier own men. I encourage that. One of them is very much like his dad, introverted, has gotten picked on in school in the past, I want him to do well in life -but I see what I am dealing with. I KNOW it is temperment, NOT how they are raised. The other one- a year older....Mr Popularity, into sports, EGO filled. I never treated them different, but I have to make sure I love them the same and appreciate also what the more passive introverted son brings to the table. 

I would appreciate an example of when it is OK for women to speak to men they are not married too -is it ever appropriate? or only "surface/weather" talk? Or should she be silent until spoken too, as that is her place in the feminine, the receptive ? Are you that old school? Not that I am knocking it - just genuinely curious- I get this impression by your posts. 

You know I respect you, you are very knowledgable about many many relationship issues, & those temperments. I may not always agree with you, but sometimes we can agreee to disagree too. It's all good. I am still learning.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Yet - I feel as though if I "agree" with women on this board - I'm viewed as less than a man...


That’s your interpretation! And a very broad one at that. You talk of “taking sides”. It is you who takes sides with the women who don’t like/get the manning up thing! It seems to be where you most naturally fit. Most men, I’d say about 90% seem to both get and like the manning up process. And to see the truth or effect of it, just look at the guys who thank the others for their help! That’s my measurement as to whether it’s working or not. Not the tyre kickers who only want to find fault in it. For me a person’s sex has no matter as to whether I disagree with them or not.




nice777guy said:


> But to me - its almost like being "Man Enough" to wear pink. Its a ridiculous notion - that a color could make you feminine. But I used to have a pink shirt - I don't do stripes or patterns much so it was really just another color when I bought it. I got 100x more comments from that shirt alone than all the other clothes I've worn in my life. Good and backhanded.


I don’t see it as a ridiculous notion at all! Get dressed all in pink, go down to a bar and see what happens!





nice777guy said:


> So - to ME - being a Man - means speaking my mind - even if I'm agreeing with the opposite sex.


For me you are so very complicated. You avoid confrontation (speaking your mind, asserting yourself) but then you reckon you speak your mind. 



nice777guy said:


> Although - I am a bit puzzled - as to why I so often agree with the opposite sex - and if that "could" be some problem that my psyche refuses to acknowledge.


It just depends on your motivation. If you are agreeing with the opposite sex because you want to be seen as nice, to be liked then I believe you are very wrong to do that. If you are agreeing to avoid conflict and avoid asserting your “self” (that guy who’s right there inside of you) then again I think you are wrong to do that.


And I do feel the need to put in some form of disclaimer here. NG my wife was/is a Nice Woman. She was in very many ways a fabulous wife and I was very spoiled by her and well and truly blessed. That’s what kept me with her for 42 years. But there is a dark side to it all, just like there is to everything else and that’s what brought us down. My wife would never look at her dark side, would not even acknowledge it’s existence. It’s working in and on that dark side, Jung calls it the Shadow, that brings about the biggest changes in us.


----------



## Conrad

Entertaining thread.

The female defenders of NiceGuy always liven things up.

The dialogue is truly fascinating.


----------



## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> Listen, I KNOW they are not. Believe me, I am over this. For a time I was kinda irritated. BUT....I guess I SEE Niceguy as being Authentic . Maybe I am missing it.
> 
> His wife left him, maybe she is the fool. And after she realizes what is all out there at her age, she might be dragging her self back to him. It happens. Some men are NEVER going to be like some other men, My husband could give a rats ass about sports & hunting. Would he RATHER sit with some ladies -kinda laying back in the background listening to them WHINE about whatever, over a bunch if hyped Sports fanatics getting all loud over some football - he'd take the women. Really. You can't relate to that, so what. It doesn't make you a better man.
> 
> .


I'm with Deejo! Lucky husband. If you're not a real person, please never tell me.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> For me you are so very complicated. You avoid confrontation (speaking your mind, asserting yourself) but then you reckon you speak your mind.


This one bugged me - just a bit.

On this board - I have NO DESIRE or reason to keep the peace. If I make someone angry enough - I can log off, block them, e-mail a mod - or - apparently - ask the women to bail me out! 

My marriage is where I avoided confrontation. There was no ignore button - no way to ignore it - hide behind a user name.

THIS is the kind of thing I'm working on.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Sawney Beane said:


> If most of the men used their strength to get what they wanted regardless of the impact on others, or to impose their will by physical threats or force, then the last thing you'd want to see is anyone become more of a "man". Manning up is derived from a particular definition of what a man is and ought to be. If your experience of men has lead you to the belief that men are not like that, manning will not seem like a good thing...


True, true, true. My wife comes from a background of multiple generations of male alcoholism as do many of her friends and obviously, the rest of her family. At first, I though she just had some resentment over how she may have been treated by some of the men she dated (previously to me), but I later found out how much she and the rest actually hate men, male characteristics, male interests and how much they resist men acting more like men. In their defense, I could write an encyclopedia of all the ways their drunken men messed up their lives. But the widespread effect over multiple generations was a real eye opener to me. Add contemporary feminism with an anti-male bias and you have quite a volatile mix.


----------



## AFEH

SA,
How can someone who avoids asserting themselves (what they want) and who avoids conflict (doesn't say what they mean) actually BE authentic? Surely you have to be two faced to do those things?

NG’s wife does sound foolish to me. But I doubt she’s an Alpha female because they will protect and nurture their young. I think NG is probably using Alpha in a derogatory way knowing his dislike of the term! And because he’s done that, he’s more than likely missed what is really wrong with her.

I do not think I am a better man because I do not like sitting down talking with a group of women! Each to their own and all that. In those situations I prefer the company of men. And that does not mean I’m gay lol.

How the majority of how men really are! On TAM? Wow. All I see in the main is good men in big trouble trying to make their marriage and life “work”. 

RUDE. As part of manning up? No. But CONFLICT yes. And ASSERTIVENESS yes. But not for the sake of conflict and not for the sake of being assertive. Rather for the sake of trying to help another man out! And that’s what some women miss. You miss all of that. That men are here helping other men out. Thank goodness that those men who have been helped out are good enough to speak of their thanks, of their gratitude. If it was just the women piping up as some of you are want to do, criticising, and none of the men left their thanks then I’m certain a few of us would have given it up as a thankless task. You totally and absolutely miss that SA as do some others.

Look. You came in defending SA! In my view he does not need your defence! He’s a man, and he will stand up for himself!. There are women that do support the manning up process. Even women who point men to the Men’s Clubhouse to discover about it. The women I disagree with are the women who don’t support the manning up process! And my goodness some of us men tried hard enough to get some to understand it but it is seemingly beyond your comprehension.

With children I think you aren’t quite correct! Sure it is to do with temperament etc. but it also has to do with what a child learns from their parents as they are growing up. It is learned behaviour! You know children are the greatest imitators. Through imitation they create images of values, beliefs, rules, behaviour deep in their psyche, at the very core just by imitating their parents, what they see on TV etc. And some boys don’t have very good examples of men (fathers) to imitate! And bad behaviour gets carried from generation to generation through imitation as a child! Those behaviours are called traits. They are not attitudes they are traits. And personality traits are the most deep routed and most difficult to change. Attitudes, they can change in a minute or two!

Women not speaking to men they are not married to? I’m surrounded by married women and I talk to them all bar one! Surface weather talk, no. Silent until spoken to? Wow. One of my best woman friends beats me up verbally on a regular basis. She’s an active feminist from Florida, moved here. I have a lot of time for her, we have a good laugh and talk about most things. It obviously gets inappropriate when they start either flirting or confiding (in their marriage troubles). And that happens to me a reasonable amount of time. I don’t like it, mostly because their H’s can see what’s happening. I’ll actually stay away for 2 months or so when it gets too obvious. And then I get moaned at for being a stranger! But I prefer that.

I feel exactly the same way about you and am in total agreement with Deejo!


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## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> True, true, true. My wife comes from a background of multiple generations of male alcoholism as do many of her friends and obviously, the rest of her family. At first, I though she just had some resentment over how she may have been treated by some of the men she dated (previously to me), but I later found out how much she and the rest actually hate men, male characteristics, male interests and how much they resist men acting more like men. In their defense, I could write an encyclopedia of all the ways their drunken men messed up their lives. But the widespread effect over multiple generations was a real eye opener to me. Add contemporary feminism with an anti-male bias and you have quite a volatile mix.


When I saw the very deep love my wife had for her father (she was 16 at the time) I knew she’d seen and experienced the Good in Man and was more than capable of loving Man. It was one of my many reasons for marrying her.


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## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> When I saw the very deep love my wife had for her father (she was 16 at the time) I knew she’d seen and experienced the Good in Man and was more than capable of loving Man. It was one of my many reasons for marrying her.


Exactly! But unfortunately not universal.


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> How the majority of how men really are! On TAM? Wow. All I see in the main is good men in big trouble trying to make their marriage and life “work”.


Amen my bother. The fight is real and it is constant


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> When I saw the very deep love my wife had for her father (she was 16 at the time) I knew she’d seen and experienced the Good in Man and was more than capable of loving Man. It was one of my many reasons for marrying her.


It's very difficult if not impossible to love someone who makes it clear on a regular basis that they love the bottle more than you. The untold collateral damage from alcoholism never ceases to amaze me.


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## nice777guy

nice777guy said:


> I think I married an Alpha. And that worked for us - up until she went through an identity crisis (nice words).


A LOT of interesting things being said here - but wanted to respond to this one.

Bob - for years - at home - my wife was the decision maker. She was also a very good stay at home mother for several years. I think those traits fit a positive use of the word "Alpha." And - being a peacekeeper myself - it was easy to defer to her on most basic issues.

Our marriage ending had nothing to do with her being Alpha - and I don't really have a negative connotation attached to that word. 

Our "end" had more to do with how she adjusted to some difficult health issues. And my blame in the matter was probably in letting things get too far gone before I really understood what was going on.

*Deejo* - thanks for recognizing that I am opening up here and trying to get my hands dirty so to speak.

SA - will just agree with the others that you and your H have found a great combination in one another. You are both very fortunate.


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## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> I'm with Deejo! Lucky husband. If you're not a real person, please never tell me.


ha ha . You guys shouldn't be flattering me, It will go to my head. AFEH will be sure to put me in my rightful place. 

Seriously this subject interests me too. I even bought 2 manning up books -"No More Mr Nice Guy" and "Hold on to your Nuts". I only read pages out of each....was it wrong for me to look into this stuff - and bring it to him -- I was just trying to dissect our lacking past -- I can tell you, he was fine with himself & would never read nor think on anything about this till his dying breath. 

We learned where HE was screwing up in our past, and yes, he fell into being "too nice" to acheive certain things ...reading on the net to do my dishes, etc thinking this would spike my interest . I seriously :rofl: when he told me this years later. Boy did he pick the wrong article to deal with ME. He should have been more assertive , in my face, seduced me with his charm. How silly, I had no inkling what was on his mind -the way he went about things. He needed to sit under Big Bad Wolf for some wisdom. But as we talked about his failings, we sure did talk about MINE as well. As it should be. 

I am not against *Manning up *believe me! My only input is.... not all men are the same. Ok good --AFEH, you don't judge the male who might choose sitting among some women over some sports, hunting fanatics. Accually my husband would choose to just be alone over both. Give him Mechanics talk, coins, even guns and he would surely choose men over women though- unless it was me of coarse. There would be no motivation to talk to them, he would likely be silent and let them talk to him. He is not one who cares to hang with the guys, but that seems to be a problem too -even in these books, like you are not on tract with "the PROGRAM" unless this is incorporated into your life somehow. I guess if your woman is slipping away, I can see it though! 
So as WE read, we didn't see the need for everything it suggested -his time at work is enough male bonding. 

...


> With children I think you aren’t quite correct! Sure it is to do with temperament etc. but it also has to do with what a child learns from their parents as they are growing up. It is learned behaviour! You know children are the greatest imitators. Through imitation they create images of values, beliefs, rules, behaviour deep in their psyche, at the very core just by imitating their parents, what they see on TV etc. And some boys don’t have very good examples of men (fathers) to imitate! And bad behaviour gets carried from generation to generation through imitation as a child! Those behaviours are called traits. They are not attitudes they are traits. And personality traits are the most deep routed and most difficult to change. Attitudes, they can change in a minute or two!


 You put in a very little plug in for "temperment", I guess I feel it is near EQUAL or at least 33% of a factor in comparison to environment.... I am talking about the natural flow of having assertiveness -in any form -to use it to too dominately -forcefully - or to be of a confident respectful nature . The environment is where our natural temperments will learn how to be used effectively -in our future relationships, yes, those examples. Very very important unless we are so turned off by what we see, we make a conscious effort to NOT be that way, and take to learning. 


For example, I took my 4yr old Halloweening last night - I watched him go up for candy- if they would want to drop a Kit Kat in his pumpkin & he wanted the Reeses Cup- HE TOLD THEM outright he wanted the Reeses . It was kinda cute - I let it go -let the handers out deal with the little scoundrel ....but as he grows older, he will have a tendency to be BOSSY and demanding BY HIS VERY NATURE, I will have to nip this in the butt, as that would be messing with others boundaries. I didn't see the harm last night though. 

Some assertiveness just comes natural to some, are they more blessed, I am not so sure -cause they are often the colder ones, in comparison to our more peaceful temperment guys. A shame they often suck with the ladies. A shame, I think women are not too bright. 

But another son would never do that, he is more docile, laid back, shy. They are raised the same. But he also does not have that temper either, he seriously can get over things easier, he has more tolerance naturally -and still he is Happy somehow. *We all need to be TRUE to ourselves of coarse, I would never miss that *. 



> How the majority of how men really are! On TAM? Wow. All I see in the main is good men in big trouble trying to make their marriage and life “work”.


 I just mean -I did not realize how significant the CAVE was to the majority of married men, how many men are turned off by a more aggressive female -even within the marraige -it crowds them, puts pressure on them -they want & seek receptive, even if they say otherwise. I guess these are all NATURAL things, this spells the typical male, how they are geared, that hunting chasing -conquering spirit but it appears to have it's downside as well -or so I see it. I didn't realize how ODD my husband was, and still sometimes it appears.... sensitivity , a man sharing his feelings - is looked down upon, or maybe I just NOTICE these posts like a sore thumb. Could be. I am better off with the non-typical male. 

These are things women don't get, and you have your complaints about us as well....we need so much attention, to be listened too, but then some of us are hyper sensitive & We never let you live down something you say in the heat of the moment -you have to put up with us. So some of that receptive sensitivity of us females makes you want to run & hide. Ha ha , the war of the sexes. 



> Look. You came in defending SA! In my view he does not need your defence! He’s a man, and he will stand up for himself!. There are women that do support the manning up process. Even women who point men to the Men’s Clubhouse to discover about it. The women I disagree with are the women who don’t support the manning up process! And my goodness some of us men tried hard enough to get some to understand it but it is seemingly beyond your comprehension.


 I agree with you -he doesn't need defending. You can just get mad at me for being an irritant. I'll accept that. Maybe I just felt like being Feisty today , I am pmsing, that should say it all.


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## RDJ

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just felt like being Feisty today , I am pmsing, that should say it all.


I don't know about the rest of the guys, but that cleared it up for me! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Just kidding, could not resist. You know I admire you too.


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## nice777guy

RDJ said:


> I don't know about the rest of the guys, but that cleared it up for me! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Just kidding, could not resist. You know I respect you too.


And you want to live!


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## RDJ

nice777guy said:


> And you want to live!


If we can't laugh, we are already dead!


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## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just mean -I did not realize how significant the CAVE was to the majority of married men, how many men are turned off by a more aggressive female -even within the marraige -it crowds them, puts pressure on them -they want & seek receptive, even if they say otherwise.


Speaking for myself ... I NEED feisty. This topic has been covered in the past, but I think it confuses some of the other themes we roll around in. Conflict is sexy. Friction is a sure fire way to build desire. MEM refers to conflict with his wife all of the time. 

Sh!t testing is generally a low-threshold opportunity for playful conflict.

I wouldn't want a 'yes dear', compliant, soft-spoken, wall-flower.

Feisty is good.

We need feisty female input to test out those assertiveness and conflict resolution skillz so the boys can get manned-up and all.

But to be clear ... feisty is good. Crazy can be fun ... for a while, but is most certainly not good.


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I have two sons both in their late 30s. I most definitely see the Hunter/Worker, Hero, Warrior, Priest and King archetypes in my elder son. His partner, some 13 years younger is a Feminist. But she is a Feminist who is most definitely in touch with her Feminine nature and a Feminist who most definitely knows about, accepts and works with the Masculine in my son. My son tells me Feminism is a fact of life and he works around it. I think to do that he uses mainly the Archetypal Priest in him.


How about this AFEH, your thread is entitled ".....Manning up , what does it mean, what is it for?" ....... I am going to quit talking about my husband, and take this in another direction ....as you mentioned your 2 sons and did a little comparison -and let's face it, we all compare and judge , it can't be helped .....*so what about MANNING UP and how it relates to Morality and Gentlemanship *.........

...Speaking of your sons, I know you have the utmost respect for your oldest - you call him a Hero here -he has a long term girlfriend much younger than him (this ups his sex rank ), a feminist , but doesn't want to marry her -even nearing 40 -or maybe she has no need to get married -after all she is a feminist . You've also as much said in other posts he can pick them up & have his way with just about any woman he wants (I got the impresson of pride there) , he has never had trouble, he has it "going on" in the Alpha sense-- obviously. 

But your youngest just hangs with many women friends, his finacial status is sourly less than your oldest --so he is discounted. I realize he has other issues- too close to Mom's apron strings & all, and of coarse, maybe his sex life is in shambles as well . Maybe he has a secret "Screw partner" and Mom doesn't even know! 

I am wondering is all MANNING UP related to the LOVE and admiration of winning the woman you want -this is the PROOF you have arrived , or is it MORE about BEING who you are , unashamed, even if you DON't GET the hot younger woman , even if your wife still leaves . What is more important at the end of the day. It just seems those we paint as manned up Heros all have women flocking, or won the damsel back .......

*Or is being a TRUE Gentleman more about Manning up? *

I know YOU are old fashioned, believe in the institution of Marraige, it is what makes for strong thriving countries even, you have much to say about "loose living" on those feminist threads -and I agree with you! Healthy relationships are the backbone of society. Sounds like neither of your sons has any children floating around -so all good- they have been responsible in this sense. No broken or split families. Dad would be proud. 


But what about your oldest -how many hearts has he broken along the way-in the last 20 yrs? Just cause you can reel them IN doesn't make for Heros, or does it ? Many women are gullable. It sounds your youger son is not even in the scoring, fell out of the competition years ago. 

So Manning up is simply to WIN women - whether you keep them, discard them, marry them or just let them fall by the way side -because you are THE WANTED ALPHA, you have choice -the more you have falling at your feet -and of coarse their sex status gives you more points as well - are these our Manned up Heros ? 

These are the impressions I get when I read some of this stuff on here, so I ask. 

*** Let me contrast MY oldest son to yours. He is confident NOW (he wasn't in the past - but he overcame it -much of this is due to his finding a LUST with the Guitar -his passion is music ministry- he clearly elevates this over women). .... he is in his 3rd year of college -never kissed a girl yet ! Yes, I know this is nuts, believe me.... It is also rediculous for the Mother to be wanting her son to get out there -start chasing some Tail, you might have some FUN !!! Do you realize how absurd this is. I tell him he is going to kick himself in the a** someday for hanging out with all of these beauties -he gets together in groups , does movies, many girls have liked him, but , for whatever reason, he lets them slip away to other guys. He appears very choosy. 

He is not gay. I joked with him about going to the Strip Club with his dad, he admits that is one place he would have TROUBLE at . IS he a NICE GUY -In some ways -YES! He is like his dad, he may put himself out there, but if she isn't interested, that's it, little chase, he says he is not a stalker, he has only tried to win 2 hearts thus far in his life -both times he was "friend zoned"- he respected them. 

He is not, however afraid to say what the thinks, even if it might not be all that pleasant. He says it like it is. Even if it gets him in a little trouble. He fights with me too, I can't tell him what to do - All the more respect I have for him there----

Even if I think he is going about his life "too purely" even feeling he may regret these days of his youth without a little experimentation. He IS always happy though, and busy. Much happier than I was at his age. 

He laughs at "No More Mr Nice Guy"- for him , it is all GOD, - he puts no stock in the secular rantings of man. He feels it's all God's timing, if he is busying himself in the right place at the right time, it will just happen..... he will meet her. I think that is grand wishful thinking. 

My son is not breaking any hearts, he is responsible, he is confident , has clear goals, dreams, he has the looks, is a runner, a musician, good grades, volunteers, good work ethic - maybe I would call him a HERO too -- but he isn't catching the women or at least not the ones HE desirees. I must admit his sights are a bit high, one of them had a CD out! And he wants a pure woman who has a heart after God as well. 

BUT he also is not bending over backwards or trying to BE something he is NOT to win them either, he is who he is, he likes who he is, and this is HIS way-right now in this time frame. My son does not believe in using a woman in any sense. He believes sex waits till Marriage. 

Now I want opionions....... Would you say he is Manned up like your son -but obviously a VERY DIFFERENT animal --- --or being foolish, a young boy who has not discovered what being a man IS until you have been with a woman -even though that would go against his Biblical beliefs ? If nothing, he has amazingly integrity. 

I personally feel he will regret these days, not being a more regular GUY -enjoying his youth like the majority. But hey, who am I -just his Mom that was a little similar but not nearly as pure as he intends . I have told him, if his dad was as pure as him, I would have dumped him. He just laughs at me. Well see how that goes when he catches the girl. I know his dreams are the traditional marriage & family.

Would like to hear opinions on this.


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## AFEH

Well I’ve written a lot I don’t know if it’s a lot of tosh or not. It is though authentically me!



SimplyAmorous said:


> I am wondering is all MANNING UP related to the LOVE and admiration of winning the woman you want -this is the PROOF you have arrived , or is it MORE about BEING who you are , unashamed, even if you DON't GET the hot younger woman , even if your wife still leaves . What is more important at the end of the day. It just seems those we paint as manned up Heros all have women flocking, or won the damsel back .......
> 
> 
> So Manning up is simply to WIN women - whether you keep them, discard them, marry them or just let them fall by the way side -because you are THE WANTED ALPHA, you have choice -the more you have falling at your feet -and of coarse their sex status gives you more points as well - are these our Manned up Heros ?


When I quite distinctly said it is not just about women! Maybe it’s that women like to think they are the centre of our Universe . Believe me, you often are and we’ll move heaven and earth for you. You can and do mean the world to us. But sometimes a Man must see and define his life, his self, in the wider context of the world around him. And to do that sometimes he has to step right out of his own head and look back in keeping the world around him in context! Some can do that, some can’t. Those that can change, those that can’t stay the same.



AFEH said:


> For me it’s about how a man gets in touch with, understands and applies his Masculinity. Part of that “process” is understanding and working with his wife’s Femininity. But I think it wrong for a man to define his masculinity just in the terms of how he interacts with his wife. It extends much more than that, for example with his children and his parents. But it goes even further to that “great outside world”, not the least in the workplace.


1)	My pride in my elder son is NOT related to his ability to pull women. I could list the many reasons why I am proud of him but I wont.

2)	I tried exceptionally hard with my younger son. I no longer try and I feel better that way. I could list the reasons why I am not proud of him but I wont. Maybe it’s best to know that after 15 years or so I gave up with him as it wasn’t doing me any good. Plus I cannot even like a man of 36 who spent the last ten years and more trying to get my wife to leave me. I gave up trying to understand that stuff but that took me a very long time indeed.

3)	Believing in the institution of marriage makes me old fashioned! I don’t see it that way. I do though think children are better off brought up by their mother and father wherever possible. I don’t even ask my son or partner if they are to get married, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It is enough for me to see them happy and joyful together and pulling for each other. One of the reasons I don’t ask if they are getting married is that I don’t want them to even think that I disapprove of what they do!

4)	My eldest and broken hearts? How am I supposed to know that? But if women give out “instant sex” what sympathy can there be for them? If women are loose, again what sympathy can there be for them? If they think giving sex on the first night is going to get the man, again what sympathy can there be for them?

5)	Being a true gentleman is more about manning up? It just depends what definition is put on gentleman. I think, as I said, it’s all in the Masculine. But there is a dark side to the Masculine, a shadow. So it’s about minimising the dark side and maximising the light side of what it means to be Masculine. For example for a man to be truly aware of when his anger is rising and to remove himself from a situation such that he does not “do things in anger”. Masculine anger is typically the hot, red anger. He needs to learn why it is there (it is there and totally natural, it is there for reasons), to understand it, dissipate it and learn what his anger is telling him. And then to move forward in the situation from there. Masculine red hot anger is not at all pretty and the man needs to understand it’s affects on others around him, the short, medium and long term affects. If you read Jung you’d know he talks of the Man’s Anima, the inner feminine side of a Man. And I think Jung teaches getting in touch with this inner feminine to compensate for the dark side of the Masculine. But I’m not sure about that. But I do believe in Masculine Compassion and I think that a wonderful thing.

6)	Morality and manning Up? Massively big time. These are the VALUES of a man. The PRINCIPLES that guide him in his daily life. For example your eldest is DEMONSTRATING FINE VALUES! And those values are guiding his life and they will lead him to his destiny! A man’s set of values and his rules (boundaries that protect his values) are his own UNIQUE AND PERSONALISED RELIGION. His very own BIBLE. And the better he knows what's written in his bible, the better he knows himself. These are all the “I do not’s”. I do not steal, I do not lie, I do not smoke, I do not get drunk, I do not hit women etc. etc. And they are our do’s. I do defend people who are attacked, I am compassionate, I am empathetic, I save for the future, I always pay my bills on time etc. etc. Sometimes in life our values change and consequently we change our rules. Sometimes these are deeply embedded at the very core of our psyche. For example the value I put on my stbxw being in my life caused my “heart to get broken yet again”. Too much pain. So I thought well what does it mean if she is not in my life anymore. It looked better and I just didn’t want that pain ever again. So I changed the rule I made in the first ten seconds of seeing her for the first time over and that I had for over 40 years, my “To death us do part” rule long before we ever got married. That rule of mine tied us together when we should not have been together, it kept me trying even when it simply wasn’t working anymore. I changed that value and rule and then my whole life changed because my behaviour changed. But she was deeply attached in my psyche with all the values and rules, emotions etc. and the “separation” took a very long time and it was a painful journey. But one I needed to go on for my own good.

7)	You have 5 sons! And being a woman you will know just how different they are. This silly man treated his two sons the same way even though as toddlers they were so very different. But I did encourage each in their own strengths. For example my younger son is a great artist, sculpture, poet and lyricist. So I encouraged that in him most especially as a means to pay his way in life. He has way more natural talent than me and his brother. But he doesn’t use it. It’s easier with my elder son because his career is in the same field as mine. His next step is director and just this weekend he and his partner are off for some executive coaching and mentoring with a very long time friend of mine. I find with my elder son I need to somehow plant “seeds of thought”, else he rejects most things out of hand! This is a seed I planted about 18 months ago just beginning to sprout! If I was doing it all again I’d have my sons kind of “assessed” at the age of eight or nine. Like a psychometrics assessment that’s done in interviews. I think that would have guided me much more on where to guide and support my sons. I think they should do the same in schools to help guide students into careers suited to their temperament etc.

8)	With your elder son I don’t know. But I do think the essence of our psyche is more or less set in concrete (and re-enforced concrete, with iron bars inside it) by the time we are eight or nine, twelve or thirteen sort of thing. That psyche is “the deepest thoughts, values, feelings, beliefs and rules of a person” and these quite literally drive a person’s external behaviour. So your son’s “self” set its sail, its course in life when he was around nine! Sure along the way we develop new values and beliefs. For example when I was 17 or so I set the value that I will make my way in life based on computing technology and that to be of true value and never out of work I would never get off the learning curve. That worked for me throughout my career in technology and later in business. I think if you know and truly understand a person’s most fundamental values, beliefs and rules then you really know the person. And by fundamental I mean those things a person will never compromise under any circumstances. The non negotiable things they’d die for sort of thing. Not only that, when a person knows and understands those things about themselves, then they truly know themselves.

9)	With your younger son I think you demonstrated to him that bad behaviour is not only tolerated but that it’s rewarded as well! No way would he have got anything if that was one of my sons. It’s that tough love stuff, in my family I was the one who stepped up to the mark with that stuff. But it does have its consequences, in that for example he wont LIKE you for it, he would think you are NOT NICE . But that passes. Plus it’s only later in life, when we look back that we truly appreciate the tough love our parents gave to us. Surely that is how parents guide their children and that is all part of the nurturing. Parents have a phenomenal influence, a massive influence on their children in these things, the nurturing of them. But then again maybe you really do want perhaps subconsciously for your youngest to be a REBEL! And so you encourage him by not applying tough love. I believe the world needs rebels, those that aren’t prepared to accept the status quo and who use their creativity to improve things, make them better than they were before. There’s quite a bit of the rebel in me, I’m aware of it and I hide most of it believe it or not. I work quietly to get things to where I think they should be. It was one of my strengths in business, an agent or catalyst for change. I read a lovely letter from my Granddad to my Mother once. She’d obviously written to him asking his advice on how to handle me. He replied something like Bobby is a rebel but a good rebel, he will be ok in life don’t worry too much about him. You know him, he will do what he wants to do. Maybe your younger son has the REBEL in him and maybe that’s what you should channel and guide, to help him use his strengths to do good in the world and watch, like my mother and father did as a team, for when he crosses the line and use tough love to bring him back onside again.


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## SimplyAmorous

> My pride in my elder son is NOT related to his ability to pull women.


 I must say, this is good to hear, I really don't feel it should be anyway. But yes, I did get that impression, one of the reasons I had to ask. And as for ME...I am* tempted *to FEEL that my older son is NOT manned up -simply because he is NOT getting the women he wants, but I guess I am wrong on that also. 



He lives all you spoke here >>>


> And those values are guiding his life and they will lead him to his destiny! A man’s set of values and his rules (boundaries that protect his values) are his own UNIQUE AND PERSONALISED RELIGION. His very own BIBLE. And the better he knows what's written in his bible, the better he knows himself. These are all the “I do not’s”. I do not steal, I do not lie, I do not smoke, I do not get drunk, I do not hit women etc. etc. And they are our do’s. I do defend people who are attacked, I am compassionate, I am empathetic, I save for the future, I always pay my bills on time etc. etc. Sometimes in life our values change and consequently we change our rules. Sometimes these are deeply embedded at the very core of our psyche.


 He also has his anger completely controlled as you spoke in #5. But then again, he was always a very compliant child, I remember after having him, thinking to myself -why is all of these parents complaining so much about thier toddlers, mine was a breeze. So this is likely his temperment helping out again. (I wouldn't say that about my youngest now)

I agree with you, we want our kids to be HAPPY & treat others with Respect -- even if they may choose a different path than us, even if not marrying. I don't have a problem with that either. 

Though I can't deny I secretly want my son to find a woman, he knows I will be the most excited to hear it when he meets that "someone special" & brings her home. I am such a pathetic Romantic. I think it is a right of passage to have a few breakups along the way also. He doesn't feel that has to happen if he is "led by God". I guess time will tell his story. He is lightly pursuing one from another College, he does keep me up on things -just cause he wants too. I am not badgering him for information by any means. We hardly even talk , a month could go past & I not even hear from him. I am thankful he willingly confides in me though. . 




> My eldest and broken hearts? How am I supposed to know that? But if women give out “instant sex” what sympathy can there be for them? If women are loose, again what sympathy can there be for them? If they think giving sex on the first night is going to get the man, again what sympathy can there be for them?


 Just for the record, I couldn't agree with you more. I have always held myself to a higher standard than the guys I met in my youth, I feel we are the "gatekeepers" of what is precious to us (unless we are taken by force)- ...I see men as the "weaker sex". Many women would be outraged by me saying that, but that is how I feel ....My dad used to tell my mother he felt like he was going to die -now that is really funny! BUt anyway....we hold the power to say "NO, I am not ready". Do a little testing of his love -before giving ourselves. That is how I look at it -and also want my daughter to. The Man who has fallen for her hard -will wait ...for when she is ready in her own right & feels the security she needs to open that door. 



> It’s that tough love stuff, in my family I was the one who stepped up to the mark with that stuff. But it does have its consequences, in that for example he wont LIKE you for it, he would think you are NOT NICE . But that passes. Plus it’s only later in life, when we look back that we truly appreciate the tough love our parents gave to us.


 yes, I let my little boy go on Halloween, maybe not the best thing, I guess I didn't see the harm in those moments. But please, Believe me when I say ...I AM a TOUGH Loving MOM. And even with this one, He does NOT get his way, I don't care how bad of a fit he throws, I will stand firm. I have had my kids tell me they hate me, that does not move me. And of coarse they get over it. For the most part they all love me, my 10 yr old prefers his dad, we are at odds more than the rest , just something I need to work on, he is the most sensitive and I am less sensitive than his dad, so guess what-Dad is his favorite. 

My oldest is also the Tough Love type, he gets a charge out of how we deal with the kids, cause I can be so stern, he may not have liked it at the time, I recall once grounding him a month over something. BUt looking back, he knows it was for his "good". Guess he gets this from the environment he was raised in. 

My husband is MORE lenient than me, he will break down and be NICE to them -if too much whining in the store, etc. NOT ME, I don't budge. The more you throw a fit, the worse your life will be. But yes, our youngest is the most spirited yet. He also gives me some halarious entries for our family journal. 


I like this .....


> When I quite distinctly said it is not just about women! Maybe it’s that women like to think they are the centre of our Universe . Believe me, you often are and we’ll move heaven and earth for you. You can and do mean the world to us. But sometimes a Man must see and define his life, his self, in the wider context of the world around him. And to do that sometimes he has to step right out of his own head and look back in keeping the world around him in context! Some can do that, some can’t. Those that can change, those that can’t stay the same.


and Yes... we DO like to think we are the center of HIS universe. :smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> Conflict is sexy. Friction is a sure fire way to build desire. MEM refers to conflict with his wife all of the time.


 I so much agree! Always did with such comments. My husband , however, would not say he cares for Conflict, he would not admit to it's potential in these things --although he doesn't mind when I do it -so long as I avoid putting him down. That is all he asks. 

I think I need to start a fight with him then, cause my desire is slipping these days, we haven't had a nice fight in over 3 months , I must have joked with him 3 times now... one is due! 



> Sh!t testing is generally a low-threshold opportunity for playful conflict.


 I've probably been doing that my whole life and of coarse, didn't know what it was. I think he failed alot though. 



> I wouldn't want a 'yes dear', compliant, soft-spoken, wall-flower.


 These would be your primary phelgmatic females......We are all different, those types do work for many -maybe best matched with the overly aggressive choleric male... so she has the temperence to deal with him. I know a couple like that , he is OVER the Top, aggressive in conversation, wants to run the show, not many of her friends can stand him, he is even a social activist, we got into a debate one day at a friends house, he about ripped my head off --but that was fine...I was enjoying it . BUt his wife ...total opposite.... always quiet, calm, in the background, I know she puts up with alot ..but it seems to work for them. HE is Mr Feisty in overdrive. 

It even says about the Choleric in love they are often attracted to Phelg's. Four Temperaments in Love - Choleric Love




> Feisty is good.
> 
> We need feisty female input to test out those assertiveness and conflict resolution skillz so the boys can get manned-up and all.


 True, my husband does NEED IT also, he is one of the Phlegs! 

I can't help myself with all this temperment talk- it relates to so much (in my head anyway).


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## Halien

Often, when we talk about manning up, its in the context of a guy who is a conflict avoider, or who tries to earn the wife's appreciation through doing things for her. For so many guys, its about massive dry spells in sex. but these don't describe manning up for me.

A therapist I saw some time back told me that one of the reasons that men initiate divorce less than women is because we tend to go into marriage with the expectation that we'll be less happy at times. We endure, and cope. Not that women don't do this same thing, but she just said that men trap themselves more often by feelings of the husband's responsibility.

Others may argue this point that the therapist made. But for me, my journey here has really been somewhat kept to myself. To be honest, my manning up is the realization that real manhood is the courage to call a spade a spade when it comes to the marriage, and be willing to accept the consequences. I'm still working hard to reconcile, but the challenge occasionally seem unsurmountable, so I've given myself deadlines.

AFEH, you once talked about my reason for being here. I'll try to be honest here. Because of abandonment as a child, I lived with fears that many people can't understand. I had to make cold, calculated choices just to survive emotionally, and even physically. I seriously doubted that I was a good person, and I think my wife used this unintentionally. She needed me, and it was enough, even though I always had this fantasy that my needs would one day come into play when she got better. I shared my hobby of writing with a few loyal readers, and I was a leader at work. A fixer. I used to say that I'd relax and start focusing on myself when I had a decent job. Then it became when I had my retirement set aside, and the goal just kept moving. So really, its hard to describe, but but my midlife crisis was an attempt to get to know myself, and connect with others. 

To me, manning up is the realization that I have to make decisions for my own happiness also. I will live with those decisions, if they ultimately lead to divorce. The biggest part is to accept that its not selfish to want what is missing in my life. Believe me, its not much.


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## nice777guy

Halien said:


> To me, manning up is the realization that I have to make decisions for my own happiness also. I will live with those decisions, if they ultimately lead to divorce. The biggest part is to accept that its not selfish to want what is missing in my life. Believe me, its not much.


Thanks for sharing Halien. Your story makes perfect sense.

I don't know much about where you are now, but I'd say you're on the right path.


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## Deejo

Halien said:


> A therapist I saw some time back told me that one of the reasons that men initiate divorce less than women is because we tend to go into marriage with the expectation that we'll be less happy at times. We endure, and cope. Not that women don't do this same thing, but she just said that men trap themselves more often by feelings of the husband's responsibility.


Certainly applied in my case.

I fully expected that I would be back-burnered both emotionally and sexually when we chose to start our family. But ... I did not expect that it would run as deep and as long as it did.

It's why I use the word 'dynamic' a lot. We have a distinct and direct role in how we conduct our lives and how we are treated. But the bottom line is that we come to expect patterns of behavior in our partnerships, and if we aren't proactively making clear what those patterns should be, then whatever they transition into simply becomes the norm, whether we like it or not.


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## AFEH

Halien said:


> Often, when we talk about manning up, its in the context of a guy who is a conflict avoider, or who tries to earn the wife's appreciation through doing things for her. For so many guys, its about massive dry spells in sex. but these don't describe manning up for me.
> 
> A therapist I saw some time back told me that one of the reasons that men initiate divorce less than women is because we tend to go into marriage with the expectation that we'll be less happy at times. We endure, and cope. Not that women don't do this same thing, but she just said that men trap themselves more often by feelings of the husband's responsibility.
> 
> Others may argue this point that the therapist made. But for me, my journey here has really been somewhat kept to myself. To be honest, my manning up is the realization that real manhood is the courage to call a spade a spade when it comes to the marriage, and be willing to accept the consequences. I'm still working hard to reconcile, but the challenge occasionally seem unsurmountable, so I've given myself deadlines.
> 
> AFEH, you once talked about my reason for being here. I'll try to be honest here. Because of abandonment as a child, I lived with fears that many people can't understand. I had to make cold, calculated choices just to survive emotionally, and even physically. I seriously doubted that I was a good person, and I think my wife used this unintentionally. She needed me, and it was enough, even though I always had this fantasy that my needs would one day come into play when she got better. I shared my hobby of writing with a few loyal readers, and I was a leader at work. A fixer. I used to say that I'd relax and start focusing on myself when I had a decent job. Then it became when I had my retirement set aside, and the goal just kept moving. So really, its hard to describe, but but my midlife crisis was an attempt to get to know myself, and connect with others.
> 
> To me, manning up is the realization that I have to make decisions for my own happiness also. I will live with those decisions, if they ultimately lead to divorce. The biggest part is to accept that its not selfish to want what is missing in my life. Believe me, its not much.


I think on our journey from toddler, through teenager, young man, middle aged man, career building, home buying/making/maintaining, being a husband, father etc. we tend to put our “self” “out there”. I believe it an emotional and psychological thing. We are so concerned with the future, paying the bills, trying to bring joy into our family’s life, building a career etc. in all that goes on with our psyche, the totality of who we are is not only inside us but it’s outside us as well.

For example, our body is bounded by our skin. We know physically where we end and others begin. That’s easy. I think where we get lost at midlife is where do we begin and end emotionally and psychologically? Physically our centre of gravity is inside of us. But where is our emotional centre of gravity and where is our psychological centre of gravity? What I think happens is that these centres of gravity are on the outside of us! It’s like our psyche extends way beyond the outside of our head!

And I think what you are maybe going through is a “pulling back in” a re-centring of those things that are on the outside of you. I also think the more extroverted a man is, the more he’ll have on the outside of him. And so the more work he has in front of him to “re centre himself”. I don’t think it is anywhere near the same for the introverted person.

I think this re-centring process is essential before moving onto the next stage of your life. And the re-centring is a process in and of itself that can take quite a few years. It is kind of like a very important and essential “me time”. I was having coffee with some friends earlier and one of them was taking the mick out of my pink t-shirt. I joked at age 62 I’m going through my 3rd mlc! Another one asked what are the signs of the 1st and 2nd and I said white socks with a suite for the 1st and red trainers for the 2nd.


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## AFEH

A massive thing for me on my journey over the past two years has been taking my wife off of the huge pedestal/throne I had her on. Yet I still have trouble in convincing my self of and accepting the truth of what I have discovered. And it goes further in that I’m still coming to terms with the “impact and affect” that these things had and are having on me. Like did she start telling lies two years ago or was she always a liar! I know that sounds terrible but I just don’t know by how much I was deceived. Yet I think having her on my pedestal was absolutely essential for me to feel the love I felt for her! And it was essentially that love that was my driver for 40 odd years!

I think what I am trying to come to terms with is my wife’s “shadow”. I think I deluded myself before that it didn’t even exist even though I knew it was there.

And I’m pretty certain what I next need to come to terms with is my own shadow. But most times I can’t see it although I know others can. I need to take myself off the pedestal/throne I’ve put myself on! Apparently this is all part of the “individuation” process, getting in touch with and understanding our authentic self. And part of that is knowing and integrating our shadow. But this stage requires Humility and I don’t know as I’m ready for that! I do believe Humility is a good “quality” to have. I really do believe though that I would never get to this stage had I stayed with my wife, simply because she was holding us in the same dynamics as when we were teenagers, she just refused to change.


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## SimplyAmorous

Not to sound like a wet nurse AFEH but.... I sure encourage the humility part. It is on the rare side to see someone express a struggle there, I don't think that happens too often, or at least we don't want to speak about it. Many yrs ago, I specifically bought a book on that subject cause I pretty much knew I was lacking in it and had room to grow.


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> A massive thing for me on my journey over the past two years has been taking my wife off of the huge pedestal/throne I had her on. Yet I still have trouble in convincing my self of and accepting the truth of what I have discovered. And it goes further in that I’m still coming to terms with the “impact and affect” that these things had and are having on me. Like did she start telling lies two years ago or was she always a liar! I know that sounds terrible but I just don’t know by how much I was deceived. Yet I think having her on my pedestal was absolutely essential for me to feel the love I felt for her! And it was essentially that love that was my driver for 40 odd years!
> 
> I think what I am trying to come to terms with is my wife’s “shadow”. I think I deluded myself before that it didn’t even exist even though I knew it was there.
> 
> And I’m pretty certain what I next need to come to terms with is my own shadow. But most times I can’t see it although I know others can. I need to take myself off the pedestal/throne I’ve put myself on! Apparently this is all part of the “individuation” process, getting in touch with and understanding our authentic self. And part of that is knowing and integrating our shadow. But this stage requires Humility and I don’t know as I’m ready for that! I do believe Humility is a good “quality” to have. I really do believe though that I would never get to this stage had I stayed with my wife, simply because she was holding us in the same dynamics as when we were teenagers, she just refused to change.


How does one find their center though? Yoga/meditation? Not being snarky at all, I genuinely want to know. I think we all have a persona that we project to others and oftentimes we get lost in that. I think I have so how does one get back to center?


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Not to sound like a wet nurse AFEH but.... I sure encourage the humility part. It is on the rare side to see someone express a struggle there, I don't think that happens too often, or at least we don't want to speak about it. Many yrs ago, I specifically bought a book on that subject cause I pretty much knew I was lacking in it and had room to grow.


A bit like Halien I’ve been so focused on things outside of me that I worked on myself for the sake of others. This time I’m working on myself for the sake of myself. I like the idea of Humility plus I think I lack it so I’m going to try and attain it. I think on it as an inner journey, kind of becoming a bit introverted. Just hope I don’t get lost in there.


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## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How does one find their center though? Yoga/meditation? Not being snarky at all, I genuinely want to know. I think we all have a persona that we project to others and oftentimes we get lost in that. I think I have so how does one get back to center?


As I understand things our persona is our mask we show to the world. It is what we want others to see about ourselves.

We may have multiple masks/personas. Some people have temporary personas, for example to help them give a presentation to a very large audience.

What we project onto others is not our persona but our own innermost values and beliefs, thoughts and feelings. What we project is our own egocentric view of life.

That is, if we don’t differentiate, we think others feel, think and do just like we do. So a thief will think that another person is also a thief for example. If we think a person is projecting onto us, then their projection gives us a very good insight into what is going on inside them! Can be revealing, projections.

You may have developed multiple personas, which happened to me and I ended up with an identity crisis. It was an interesting time, my starting point was “I think therefore I am”! It really was that way. I had to rebuild myself and I did that by scanning in photographs from way back, studying my history.

Getting back to centre is I feel a boundary thing. That’s why I like personal boundaries so very much. I know where I stop physically, with my skin. Where I stop psychologically and emotionally is at my personal boundaries. So for me re-centring is to do with creating personal boundaries. To bring my self back inside those boundaries. My boundaries are my rules that protect my values and beliefs

At one time I let things inside me way too easily and responded emotionally before I’d checked them out. I still do at times, take things to heart straight away. Now when someone says something that maybe emotive for me, I check it out “rationally” before I let it get to my emotions. But sometimes something will still short circuit itself to my emotions and I have to absorb that and try and dissipate it and understand it before responding.


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## SimplyAmorous

> That is, if we don’t *differentiate*, we think others feel, think and do just like we do. So a thief will think that another person is also a thief for example. If we think a person is projecting onto us, then their projection gives us a very good insight into what is going on inside them! Can be revealing, projections.



This word DIFFERENTIATE was used continuously in this "Passionate Marriage" Book Amazon.com: Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships (9780393334272): David Schnarch: Books

Like 3 times on every page or something and for the life of me, I must have missed the meaning from the get go- even though it sounds very simple. You can feel the "Projection" on these forums all the time -in how others respond. I don't think it is always cause they themselves are that way though -but have been treated in such a way. They have tasted of it in some form- so they project. Or maybe that is something else ?? 

I think I learned awhile ago how very different people are, that others really don't "get me" or I really can't understand how they can "feel' that way, it is to foreign to how I look at life. For us to think we all THINK the same , yeah, could be barking up the wrong tree. We all have insecurities of some sort, even those can be very different. 

*Humility Meaning *


> An act of submission or courtesy.
> (n.) The state or quality of being humble; freedom from pride and arrogance; lowliness of mind; a modest estimate of one's own worth; a sense of one's own unworthiness through imperfection and sinfulness; self-abasement; humbleness


Humility is true self-knowledge, the good with the bad. It is being able to be comfortable with who you actually are and not trying to pretend to be what you are not. It gives you pride when you have earned it by your talents and accomplishments and shame when you fall short. It accepts that you are far from perfect and keeps striving. It is honest.



False pride is presenting yourself to others (and yourself) as something you are not - a man without flaws. Joe Cool, always in the know. The smartest guy in the crowd always and never in doubt. It is pride not earned-style over substance. Not honest

Personal Identity: What Is Humility? | Liz Strauss at Successful Blog


Here is what I have found.... the more *humble *you are, generally the more people will open up to you & show who they REALLY are, admit their own shortcomings... winning your approval will seem less & less something to care about -as they feel valued already. 



> At one time I let things inside me way too easily and responded emotionally before I’d checked them out. I still do at times, take things to heart straight away. Now when someone says something that maybe emotive for me, I check it out “rationally” before I let it get to my emotions. But sometimes something will still short circuit itself to my emotions and I have to absorb that and try and dissipate it and understand it before responding


 Haven't we all get carried away with our mouth, Oh my, I have some doosies on that (thankfully more in the past), I have gotten mad in the moment & said things that -really made me look BAD, Uncontrolled. Then I felt like slime afterwards, the lowest form of life..... I needed to feel shame. There was no way to go but to humble myself pathetically before those I hurt. Kind of a sad thing to admit, but I have learned to do this well. I have one story in particular where my mouth got me in a nasty pickle. And often it is out of *our hurt *that brought us to this place -to say such things. It wasn't even about ME, but one of my kids. That bothered me more than someone hurting me. 

So I did what I should have done , humbled myself, explained myself in all of it's truth -laid bare so they could understand where I was coming from -God that was the most vulnerable thing I swear I have ever done. ---and amazinly, even got praise in return -being told more people should be " like me ". Now that was surely not expected after what I did ...but showed a forgiving heart on thier part, so all wins. Peace on both sides. 

One of my good friends is very different than me, she never utters a word of anything hurtful (although she does just not as badly as some of the rest of us) ...but she is also less forgiving-when others do it to her in a bad moment, she will either respond with the silent treatment or Cut them off. Me, I jump quicker than I should but then humble myself. We are very different. I won't let her get away that silent stuff with me, I call her out, she does love me for that. 

Ya know what can you do, we all screw up once in a while, some of us have a way of putting out foot in our mouth more quickly than others (Cholerics & Sanguines are known for this -the Extroverted temperments!) so don't beat yourself up too bad, you have lots of company!!


“I claim to be a simple individual liable to err like any other fellow mortal. I own, however, that I have humility enough to confess my errors and to retrace my steps.”


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## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How does one find their center though? Yoga/meditation? Not being snarky at all, I genuinely want to know. I think we all have a persona that we project to others and oftentimes we get lost in that. I think I have so how does one get back to center?


To me, this question hits home, because it is part of a problem within my relationship with my wife, but it is also part of her bipolar issues, which would take a novel to describe.

I think there is real value in questioning yourself, your motives, and what causes you to be uncomfortable with yourself, which will ultimately happen when you convey false personnas. Some personas, you'll realize, are just not you. You don't feel comfortable within them as time goes on. But they are necessary in particular situations. In my social life within the church that I sometimes go, I've always felt like I had to be different. A big part of it was because I felt like if they knew of my past, I'd never be accepted. I'm learning to be me, though, because it just didn't feel right in that personna.

For me, I'm beginning to realize that many people view a site like this differently. I've never participated in ANY electronic social media, other than email. When I contribute monthly articles to a technology magazine, the editor only wants you to add to his publication if it is out of the realm of the mundane. In the email replies section, if I feel like I'm not worthy to answer a question, I keep it to myself. I'm learning to try to be the real me in my responses here, and speak of faults and fears if they apply.

Not to detract from AFEH's post ... Okay, please forgive me AFEH, I will.... This whole concept or personnas is a big deal to me because it impacts my relationship dramatically. My wife has a depressive spectrum bipolar condition. She's an incredible woman, and its so hard to convey it here. But she became locked in a personna in her interractions with me early on, and her psychiatrist said that it became fixed, somehow related to the bipolar condition. So for me, really getting to know the true 'her' involves watching her from afar. I can break it down with passion, but it quickly fades. Incredibly, she is making some progress to break it down.


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## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How does one find their center though? Yoga/meditation? Not being snarky at all, I genuinely want to know. I think we all have a persona that we project to others and oftentimes we get lost in that. I think I have so how does one get back to center?


Same type of question here - maybe phrased a bit different.

I feel like I've spent the last 4-5 years putting so much of my life on hold. I've been trying to "save" a marriage that was likely doomed regardless of what I did. I've been trying to (over)compensate with my kids for the fact that their mother has somewhat checked out of the family. I continue to be the breadwinner - so I don't feel I have a lot of options with work.

People have told me lately that part of standing up for yourself is to not be afraid of telling people what you want or need.

And I feel like I no longer have a CLUE as to what I want or need. My wants and needs have been on the backburner for so long, I wouldn't know where to start.

Maybe the answer lies in finding my center. Any other suggestions?


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## nice777guy

Halien said:


> To me, this question hits home, because it is part of a problem within my relationship with my wife, but it is also part of her bipolar issues, which would take a novel to describe.
> 
> I think there is real value in questioning yourself, your motives, and what causes you to be uncomfortable with yourself, which will ultimately happen when you convey false personnas. Some personas, you'll realize, are just not you. You don't feel comfortable within them as time goes on. But they are necessary in particular situations. In my social life within the church that I sometimes go, I've always felt like I had to be different. A big part of it was because I felt like if they knew of my past, I'd never be accepted. I'm learning to be me, though, because it just didn't feel right in that personna.
> 
> For me, I'm beginning to realize that many people view a site like this differently. I've never participated in ANY electronic social media, other than email. When I contribute monthly articles to a technology magazine, the editor only wants you to add to his publication if it is out of the realm of the mundane. In the email replies section, if I feel like I'm not worthy to answer a question, I keep it to myself. I'm learning to try to be the real me in my responses here, and speak of faults and fears if they apply.
> 
> Not to detract from AFEH's post ... Okay, please forgive me AFEH, I will.... This whole concept or personnas is a big deal to me because it impacts my relationship dramatically. My wife has a depressive spectrum bipolar condition. She's an incredible woman, and its so hard to convey it here. But she became locked in a personna in her interractions with me early on, and her psychiatrist said that it became fixed, somehow related to the bipolar condition. So for me, really getting to know the true 'her' involves watching her from afar. I can break it down with passion, but it quickly fades. Incredibly, she is making some progress to break it down.


Halien - I can relate to quite a bit of this. My wife was diagnosed as BPII at one point - years and years ago. I still question if her latest "change" isn't just another part of her long-term cycling. Seemed to be the time that she normally blows things up so to speak.

So - does your wife understand/recognize/acknowledge her issues? If so - that's such a big piece of the puzzle.

It takes a tremendous amount of patience, love and understanding to stay with someone while they work through these issues. I hope things continue to get better for you.


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## Halien

nice777guy said:


> Halien - I can relate to quite a bit of this. My wife was diagnosed as BPII at one point - years and years ago. I still question if her latest "change" isn't just another part of her long-term cycling. Seemed to be the time that she normally blows things up so to speak.
> 
> So - does your wife understand/recognize/acknowledge her issues? If so - that's such a big piece of the puzzle.
> 
> It takes a tremendous amount of patience, love and understanding to stay with someone while they work through these issues. I hope things continue to get better for you.


For the first time, my wife is recognizing that the 'internal dialogue' that drives her to the phases is real, and doesn't see it as something to be so ashamed of that she pretends that it isn't there. She is asking questions for validation. It hurts to hear what she is thinking sometimes, but to see her denounce it is great. I'd be lying if I said that the coming winter doesn't terrify me, though. She always hovers on the depressive spectrum, but usually plunges into a deep depression in winter, for the obvious reasons, and the fact that her parents and brother died at about this same time of year. For a few weeks, all of my renovation of our home has been in adding lighting, especially full spectrum illumination throughout the house. Any little thing can only help. That and the fact that she is working really hard with a therapist.

I can imagine that it is very hurtful to consider that if your wife was drawn to her behaviors as part of an 'internal' dialogue', there might not come a time where she realizes that she was making so many bad decisions. This personna becomes their reality.


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## Trenton

NG, you don't always agree with women or men. You take each thread and ponder it and then give your honest opinion. The council of the men's clubhouse might not like this but come on...you know they wanted to turn it blue and develop a system to keep women out of the clubhouse at one time too. If we had no gender here and we were truly anonymous your question would be irrelevant. Halien is another poster who lacks the constant need to agree with the men's clubhouse council. It's not a bad trait, especially not on a forum, where none of this matters except in how it helps others. One willing to offer a balanced opinion is healthy for the forum.

Funny how it reflects life though. The pecking hens and manly boys. hahahaha


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> NG, you don't always agree with women or men. You take each thread and ponder it and then give your honest opinion. The council of the men's clubhouse might not like this but come on...you know they wanted to turn it blue and develop a system to keep women out of the clubhouse at one time too. If we had no gender here and we were truly anonymous your question would be irrelevant. Halien is another poster who lacks the constant need to agree with the men's clubhouse council. It's not a bad trait, especially not on a forum, where none of this matters except in how it helps others. One willing to offer a balanced opinion is healthy for the forum.
> 
> Funny how it reflects life though. The pecking hens and manly boys. hahahaha


Hey - I was the one who requested the color change!

Some of the statements by Conrad, Bob and others do make me question myself - something I already do a lot of anyway.

Is there some deep dark reason that I prefer to attract women other than men?

Tempting to make some joke here - as I type this, it sounds ridiculous in both directions. A man who doesn't seek manly company - or a man who seeks womanly company...both seem reasonable to me. Chuckling just a bit at the idea of a man who DOESN'T care to attract or impress women.

Honestly though - not always sure of my intentions myself. Although - back to Conrad's post - I truly don't feel I'm stretching much - if any.

Not sure if this is making sense. Almost kind of a "stream of thoughts" here - allergies (and allergy meds) messing with my head a bit this morning...


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## nice777guy

Halien said:


> For the first time, my wife is recognizing that the 'internal dialogue' that drives her to the phases is real, and doesn't see it as something to be so ashamed of that she pretends that it isn't there. She is asking questions for validation. It hurts to hear what she is thinking sometimes, but to see her denounce it is great. I'd be lying if I said that the coming winter doesn't terrify me, though. She always hovers on the depressive spectrum, but usually plunges into a deep depression in winter, for the obvious reasons, and the fact that her parents and brother died at about this same time of year. For a few weeks, all of my renovation of our home has been in adding lighting, especially full spectrum illumination throughout the house. Any little thing can only help. That and the fact that she is working really hard with a therapist.
> 
> I can imagine that it is very hurtful to consider that if your wife was drawn to her behaviors as part of an 'internal' dialogue', there might not come a time where she realizes that she was making so many bad decisions. This personna becomes their reality.


STBXW often almost hibernates during winter. Certainly some depression at play with her as well - but no traumatic events to fuel things.

My wife is at a state where she believes that because she is on meds, then her mental health can't be questioned. Ignoring the idea that her body and its chemistry aren't the same as they were 4 years ago.

I'm not sure about my Ws "internal dialogue" - I think its mostly been about doing what feels good "now" to dull some of the pain - both physical and emotional pain. Drinking, flirting, ignoring responsibilties - not a good way to cope with her issues in the long run.

I've had to let go. If your wife is working on herself and as that kind of self-awareness - you guys still have a shot at making your marriage work.

Good luck with the lighting!


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Hey - I was the one who requested the color change!
> 
> Some of the statements by Conrad, Bob and others do make me question myself - something I already do a lot of anyway.
> 
> Is there some deep dark reason that I prefer to attract women other than men?
> 
> Tempting to make some joke here - as I type this, it sounds ridiculous in both directions. A man who doesn't seek manly company - or a man who seeks womanly company...both seem reasonable to me. Chuckling just a bit at the idea of a man who DOESN'T care to attract or impress women.
> 
> Honestly though - not always sure of my intentions myself. Although - back to Conrad's post - I truly don't feel I'm stretching much - if any.
> 
> Not sure if this is making sense. Almost kind of a "stream of thoughts" here - allergies (and allergy meds) messing with my head a bit this morning...


Why do you question yourself so much? That might be the essence of your problem. Jeebus, read my signature. You're going to drive yourself nuts and then you're going to have to read that book about N.U.T.S. if you haven't already!


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Why do you question yourself so much? That might be the essence of your problem. Jeebus, read my signature. You're going to drive yourself nuts and then you're going to have to read that book about N.U.T.S. if you haven't already!


I would tell you that I've read your signature and love it - but again - obvious seduction technique!

So instead - I'll sit here quietly and try not to think too hard!


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## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How does one find their center though? Yoga/meditation? Not being snarky at all, I genuinely want to know. I think we all have a persona that we project to others and oftentimes we get lost in that. I think I have so how does one get back to center?


Is your centre Masculine or Feminine? Or maybe Neither? Or Something Else?


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> This word DIFFERENTIATE was used continuously in this "Passionate Marriage" Book Amazon.com: Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships (9780393334272): David Schnarch: Books
> 
> Like 3 times on every page or something and for the life of me, I must have missed the meaning from the get go- even though it sounds very simple. You can feel the "Projection" on these forums all the time -in how others respond. I don't think it is always cause they themselves are that way though -but have been treated in such a way. They have tasted of it in some form- so they project. Or maybe that is something else ??


Projection can be persecution. Get mugged and robbed by a black man, all black men are muggers and therefore to be victimised and persecuted. Get raped by a man, all men are rapists to be victimised and persecuted, no good men in the world. It’s exceptionally egocentric and small minded. An honest person will believe others are honest as well.


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Humility Meaning *
> 
> Humility is true self-knowledge, the good with the bad. It is being able to be comfortable with who you actually are and not trying to pretend to be what you are not. It gives you pride when you have earned it by your talents and accomplishments and shame when you fall short. It accepts that you are far from perfect and keeps striving. It is honest.


Apparently it’s the last thing on one’s journey in life, humility, self knowledge. I hope I can attain it but I struggle. I’ve been at it for near two years now but some doors to my self are stiff and others pretty firmly shut. I’ve quite a while to go as yet but I’m truly blessed to have the resources and time to do it.

My particular problem at the moment is that I’ve been exceptionally harshly judged and persecuted by my wife of 42 years and my son of 36 years. I don’t know if there’s truth in what they are saying or if I wont accept the truth that’s there. I think it probably a mixture of both.

But there is a lot of projection with them. For example they reckon I’ve $75,000 secretly stashed away I’m not declaring in the separation/divorce. Now my wife had secret savings account (not too secret, I knew about them) so she’s projecting onto me what she did in the past.

The real sad bit for me is that for 42 years I was absolutely honest and open about what I earned and what I had. I didn’t hide one cent from anybody, including the tax man let alone my wife or sons plus my wife always had access to my accounts which were joint accounts.

So I wonder how a person who is maligned by those he truly loved, helped and supported really reaches Humility without harshly judging those who malign him.


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## RandomDude

Hmmm... I've always question this saying of "people who don't trust people don't trust themselves", and the idea of "projection"... for me it's like saying "people who lock their doors at night are all guilty of burglary"


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Is your centre Masculine or Feminine? Or maybe Neither? Or Something Else?


That is a very interesting question. I am not sure. I know that I am not like "most" women in that I hate to shop, I cannot stand gossip, I don't watch "reality" t.v. I like cars, politics, history and discussing religion. I get along better with men then women.
Having said that though, I think I am feminine. While I don't wear dresses or skirts, I do wear pants but with high heels and a nice looking top. I wear makeup and take pride in being a woman. My fingernails/toenails and lips are red. Always.
I am who I am because of my childhood. A father who hated us because we were girls. He wanted boys and could not father children. I spent my lifetime knowing that he viewed me as less than just because I was a girl. Did that change me? You bet.


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## Trenton

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm... I've always question this saying of "people who don't trust people don't trust themselves", and the idea of "projection"... for me it's like saying "people who lock their doors at night are all guilty of burglary"


I agree.


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## At wits end

People have told me lately that part of standing up for yourself is to not be afraid of telling people what you want or need.

And I feel like I no longer have a CLUE as to what I want or need. My wants and needs have been on the backburner for so long, I wouldn't know where to start.

Maybe the answer lies in finding my center. Any other suggestions?[/QUOTE]

I wonder if anyone can touch on this question.

I feel very much the same way right now. After finding the NMMNG book and finding this forum, I feel like i have spent all of my time trying to please everyone else all the time and forgotten about myself. I know that this book and this forum are helping me a lot, but how *do* you find yourself again?


If anyone has any insight on this it would be great!


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> Projection can be persecution. Get mugged and robbed by a black man, all black men are muggers and therefore to be victimised and persecuted. Get raped by a man, all men are rapists to be victimised and persecuted, no good men in the world. It’s exceptionally egocentric and small minded.


 Yes, it is. Thankfully not everyone does this, but sure, some get STUCK or take on a measure of this thinking and you can feel it in their posts -from something that has happened- many times in their past. I guess we all have our issues -right. BUt we need to battle this -recognize it is there, and overcome. 

ONe of my friends Moms is like this, her husband left her , hurt her terribly shortly after they were married, she raised her 2 kids on her own -Ever since , she seriously appears to dislike almost all men ( my husband is an exception of coarse)...but always little crack jokes about them interjected here & there in conversation with other women, every opportunity another has a unfavorable comment, she will jump on it & add to it -to magnify it more so. I am sure this was a protection mechinism too, she started ages ago -that has stayed with her , sad thing is -I am sure she BELIEVES all of what she is saying now also. 



> An honest person will believe others are honest as well.


 Not all honest people feel this way, maybe in their innocent youth ....till they got burned one too many times . I mean we all* want to believe *the best in other people but that falls away pretty quickly when we go through life. Sometimes it rubs off on us & hopefully, if we are good people- we hold onto* integrity *inspite of what everyone else is doing around us. 

Me & my family are on a little vacation right now, Disney World ! .... We drove all night last night -straight through, I didn't get a speeding ticket this time either - I should be sleeping right now, but had to check in here.  I have internet access ! 

But seriously... I never robbed anyone but I go a little crazy about the protection of my house when we are away, having a friend check in & out, I have Sirens that will go off in various rooms, my cell phone called, Even thought about getting those fake barking dog motion detectors when someone is near the house...... I like to READ how the criminal mind works- even bought a book on that once recommended by a COP who spoke at our "Mops Group" -to learn how best to Protect ourselves, in every & any criminal act. 

IN fact I used to read many serial killer books in the past. Yeah, I am kinda sick I guess, I have always been fasinated to WHY people turn out the way they do, what makes them tick..... But I am nothing like that. (I hope !!)


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## Deejo

At wits end said:


> People have told me lately that part of standing up for yourself is to not be afraid of telling people what you want or need.
> 
> And I feel like I no longer have a CLUE as to what I want or need. My wants and needs have been on the backburner for so long, I wouldn't know where to start.
> 
> Maybe the answer lies in finding my center. Any other suggestions?
> 
> I wonder if anyone can touch on this question.
> 
> I feel very much the same way right now. After finding the NMMNG book and finding this forum, I feel like i have spent all of my time trying to please everyone else all the time and forgotten about myself. I know that this book and this forum are helping me a lot, but how *do* you find yourself again?
> 
> 
> If anyone has any insight on this it would be great!


My common recommendation is, "Learn how to be selfish."

It is a suggestion that is easily misconstrued. I mean it in terms of the 'self'.

Become very familiar with, and pay attention to who and what holds your interest and to who and what does not.

Actively seek out and pursue who and what holds your interest.

Actively eliminate or minimize who and what bothers you or ticks you off.

Pay attention to what works and what doesn't ... particularly in your relationships with both men and women. 

The one thing that is important to kill off? Feeling bad for yourself. Self-pity is pathetic. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

One of the biggest things to learn? Do not tie emotional outcomes to interpersonal exchanges, whether it be a sales pitch or a date. 

Assertiveness, boundaries, and what I often refer to as a code of conduct help to create a framework and guideline that you can follow and modify as needed. 

Think of it as your very own set of Instructions or User's Guide.


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> My common recommendation is, "Learn how to be selfish."
> 
> It is a suggestion that is easily misconstrued. I mean it in terms of the 'self'.
> 
> Become very familiar with, and pay attention to who and what you holds your interest and to who and what does not.
> 
> Actively seek out and pursue who and what holds your interest.
> 
> Actively eliminate or minimize who and what bothers you or ticks you off.
> 
> Pay attention to what works and what doesn't ... particularly in your relationships with both men and women.
> 
> The one thing that is important to kill off? Feeling bad for yourself. Self-pity is pathetic. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> One of the biggest things to learn? Do not tie emotional outcomes to interpersonal exchanges, whether it be a sales pitch or a date.
> 
> Assertiveness, boundaries, and what I often refer to as a code of conduct help to create a framework and guideline that you can follow and modify as needed.
> 
> Think of it as your very own set of Instructions or User's Guide.


You got a book I can buy chief? :smthumbup:

Well said. Very well said.


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## Sawney Beane

heartsbeating said:


> You got a book I can buy chief? :smthumbup:
> 
> Well said. Very well said.


He gave you the script synopsis - you have to write your own. Everyone has to write their own.


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## At wits end

Deejo,

I truly could not ask for a better answer then this!:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

You truly are an inspiration to those of us that are new to this!!

Thank you!





Deejo said:


> My common recommendation is, "Learn how to be selfish."
> 
> It is a suggestion that is easily misconstrued. I mean it in terms of the 'self'.
> 
> Become very familiar with, and pay attention to who and what holds your interest and to who and what does not.
> 
> Actively seek out and pursue who and what holds your interest.
> 
> Actively eliminate or minimize who and what bothers you or ticks you off.
> 
> Pay attention to what works and what doesn't ... particularly in your relationships with both men and women.
> 
> The one thing that is important to kill off? Feeling bad for yourself. Self-pity is pathetic. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> One of the biggest things to learn? Do not tie emotional outcomes to interpersonal exchanges, whether it be a sales pitch or a date.
> 
> Assertiveness, boundaries, and what I often refer to as a code of conduct help to create a framework and guideline that you can follow and modify as needed.
> 
> Think of it as your very own set of Instructions or User's Guide.


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## heartsbeating

Sawney Beane said:


> He gave you the script synopsis - you have to write your own. Everyone has to write their own.


Agreed! And I wasn't being literal ofcourse, I just liked his thoughts and the way it was communicated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

AFEH said:


> Projection can be persecution. Get mugged and robbed by a black man, all black men are muggers and therefore to be victimised and persecuted. Get raped by a man, all men are rapists to be victimised and persecuted, no good men in the world. It’s exceptionally egocentric and small minded. An honest person will believe others are honest as well.


Agreed, but an interesting concept that has come into play in a more pronounced way in the internet realm is that the projection is often occurring from the person reading just as much as the person sending. When given minimal data on a site like this, its easy to parse the phrases, inserting our own misconceptions as we read.

I could talk about the time I was a supervisor in the motor city and how my vehicle was attacked by a large group just because I was white, when I stopped to pick up an employee at midnight on friday night. I was beaten pretty bad. Many would assume that I'm predjudiced, but I don't think I am. It just happened, and I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Really, its hard to psychoanalyze an internet personna. What is suspected to be projection may be pure coincidence.


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> But there is a lot of projection with them. For example they reckon I’ve $75,000 secretly stashed away I’m not declaring in the separation/divorce. Now my wife had secret savings account (not too secret, I knew about them) so she’s projecting onto me what she did in the past.


 TO be accused of something like this and it not being true- and on top of that being hated for it & blamed, I can't imagine how you wouldn't be furious with the situation. All you could do is state the truth of the matter, it is then out of your hands, but I can see why you would have to cut them off. 

If , however, you have something saved -that has always been your personal stash, while she too had her own "personal stash" --and it was agreed between the 2 of you during all those 40 yrs -neither of you had a problem with that, and you didn't make an issue with hers, I would find it a little hypocritical to do this to you. But isn't this how it goes....all the rules and agreements then- get shredded during the divorce process, brings the WORST out in people. It sounds you always made a HIGH living, I am sure she has faired well -financially -even without trying to squeeze a little more - or making up stories to get more. I bet this happens alot. 





> So I wonder how a person who is maligned by those he truly loved, helped and supported really reaches Humility without harshly judging those who malign him.


Having a clear conscience within ourselves --what else can you do, this is what needs to be, only this will give us that "peace" we search for in these matters. And doing our part to project the truth- at least for a time... if it is continually rejected, and we are told we are lying, what more can you do. Next step.... work on forgiving them for wrongful accusations......easy...NEVER. But you still desire the peace, so it needs to be pursued. Right ?

I have one book on Forgiveness by Lewis Smedes, I found it very good on this sort of subject ....when there is no resolution on the others end-even if we did all we could do, when we are the rejected-and still accused, and left hurting so deeply . 

Amazon.com: Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve (Plus) (9780061285820): Lewis B. Smedes: Books


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> My common recommendation is, "Learn how to be selfish."
> 
> It is a suggestion that is easily misconstrued. I mean it in terms of the 'self'.
> 
> Become very familiar with, and pay attention to who and what holds your interest and to who and what does not.
> 
> Actively seek out and pursue who and what holds your interest.
> 
> Actively eliminate or minimize who and what bothers you or ticks you off.
> 
> Pay attention to what works and what doesn't ... particularly in your relationships with both men and women.
> 
> The one thing that is important to kill off? Feeling bad for yourself. Self-pity is pathetic. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> One of the biggest things to learn? Do not tie emotional outcomes to interpersonal exchanges, whether it be a sales pitch or a date.
> 
> Assertiveness, boundaries, and what I often refer to as a code of conduct help to create a framework and guideline that you can follow and modify as needed.
> 
> Think of it as your very own set of Instructions or User's Guide.


Makes sense. Thanks!


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## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> You got a book I can buy chief? :smthumbup:
> 
> Well said. Very well said.


Screw that ... I'm going straight for the reality TV series.


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## AFEH

Deejo said:


> My common recommendation is, *"Learn how to be selfish."*
> 
> It is a suggestion that is easily misconstrued. I mean it in terms of the 'self'.
> 
> Become very familiar with, and pay attention to who and what holds your interest and to who and what does not.
> 
> Actively seek out and pursue who and what holds your interest.
> 
> Actively eliminate or minimize who and what bothers you or ticks you off.
> 
> Pay attention to what works and what doesn't ... particularly in your relationships with both men and women.
> 
> The one thing that is important to kill off? Feeling bad for yourself. Self-pity is pathetic. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> One of the biggest things to learn? Do not tie emotional outcomes to interpersonal exchanges, whether it be a sales pitch or a date.
> 
> Assertiveness, boundaries, and what I often refer to as a code of conduct help to create a framework and guideline that you can follow and modify as needed.
> 
> Think of it as your very own set of Instructions or User's Guide.


I think there’s a “healthy selfishness” and an “unhealthy selfishness”. Healthy selfishness is when a person asserts their needs even though it may be a risk to do so and may cause them to be disliked. Unhealthy selfishness is when a person doesn’t assert their needs because of the risk and in order to be “liked” or nice, to not be disliked.

With the former you know exactly where you stand with them as they are straightforward and honest. With the latter you haven’t a clue where you stand simply because they are not asserting their needs, in fact they are being two faced, dishonest about their needs.


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## Deejo

AFEH said:


> I think there’s a “healthy selfishness” and an “unhealthy selfishness”. Healthy selfishness is when a person asserts their needs even though it may be a risk to do so and may cause them to be disliked. Unhealthy selfishness is when a person doesn’t assert their needs because of the risk and in order to be “liked” or nice, to not be disliked.
> 
> With the former you know exactly where you stand with them as they are straightforward and honest. With the latter you haven’t a clue where you stand simply because they are not asserting their needs, in fact they are being two faced, dishonest about their needs.


Exactly what a 'Nice Guy' needs to get his head around. 

The contradiction is that most 'Nice Guys' believe the unhealthy selfishness that you describe, makes them preferable or superior to ... the kind of guy that speaks his mind at the risk of ruffling feathers.

Which is why ... not tying emotional outcomes to such exchanges becomes very important as well.

If I disagree with you and don't think your idea is the best way to go, and don't say so ... because doing so may create conflict, and you may not approve of, or like me as a result; I am being 'bad selfish' and tying an emotional outcome to the exchange.

Whereas if I don't agree and can clearly convey why, whether you like it or not, I've been emotionally honest with MYSELF, and the circumstances. And how you think or feel about it, in the grand scheme of things doesn't much matter.

It's a big hurdle for 'Nice Guys'.


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## Halien

AFEH said:


> I think there’s a “healthy selfishness” and an “unhealthy selfishness”. Healthy selfishness is when a person asserts their needs even though it may be a risk to do so and may cause them to be disliked. Unhealthy selfishness is when a person doesn’t assert their needs because of the risk and in order to be “liked” or nice, to not be disliked.
> 
> With the former you know exactly where you stand with them as they are straightforward and honest. With the latter you haven’t a clue where you stand simply because they are not asserting their needs, in fact they are being two faced, dishonest about their needs.


That is a good way to explain it, in my opinion, because it invariably leads to problems in a marriage. When you hear a man or woman say that their partner left suddenly, and everything seemed fine before, can't help but wonder if this is what is going on.

With having a spouse who suffers from depression, my problem was often with putting my needs on hold. Just not talking about them. Still, I couldn't abide it without a rational 'plan' to get to the place where I could be open to express them. I wanted a line of sight. Problem is, I got caught up in the fantasy of 'just a little longer', and it will be time. Lasted two decades. And this was exactly the same as just lying about my needs.


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## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Exactly what a 'Nice Guy' needs to get his head around.
> 
> The contradiction is that most 'Nice Guys' believe the unhealthy selfishness that you describe, makes them preferable or superior to ... the kind of guy that speaks his mind at the risk of ruffling feathers.
> 
> Which is why ... not tying emotional outcomes to such exchanges becomes very important as well.
> 
> If I disagree with you and don't think your idea is the best way to go, and don't say so ... because doing so may create conflict, and you may not approve of, or like me as a result; I am being 'bad selfish' and tying an emotional outcome to the exchange.
> 
> Whereas if I don't agree and can clearly convey why, whether you like it or not, I've been emotionally honest with MYSELF, and the circumstances. And how you think or feel about it, in the grand scheme of things doesn't much matter.
> 
> *It's a big hurdle for 'Nice Guys'.*


My stbxw is most certainly the Nice Woman equivalent of the Nice Guy. Having been with her for over 40 years I feel I have quite an insight into the whole thing. And as always my caveat is I was truly blessed for the majority of those years. So I was on the other side of the Nice Guy experience, just in my case it was with a Nice Woman.

In a way I’m probably their best coach. What I am finding is, just like my stbxw they never admit, own up to their shadow side. And although I still after near two years sometimes long to get my wife back with me I know I never will because I know she will never ever be honest and open with me, let alone admit her imperfections (very deep and very serious imperfections) and actually do something about them.

It is deeply rooted this stuff in a person’s psyche, so much so I feel they never want to let it out into the light and so they, just like my wife, will never ever change.

The HURDLE IS MASSIVE. In order for them to change, they MUST change some of their Golden Values and Golden Rules that are deep within and forming the very foundations of their psyche. Only the brave will do it and to do it they HAVE TO WANT/NEED something enough in order to make the changes.


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## AFEH

Halien said:


> That is a good way to explain it, in my opinion, because it invariably leads to problems in a marriage. When you hear a man or woman say that their partner left suddenly, and everything seemed fine before, can't help but wonder if this is what is going on.
> 
> With having a spouse who suffers from depression, my problem was often with putting my needs on hold. Just not talking about them. Still, I couldn't abide it without a rational 'plan' to get to the place where I could be open to express them. I wanted a line of sight. Problem is, I got caught up in the fantasy of 'just a little longer', and it will be time. Lasted two decades. And this was exactly the same as just lying about my needs.


I was on the other side Halien. I have no problems with asserting my needs, I never have. As a 13 year old at school 12 of us were called into see the headmaster accused of taking a teacher’s name in vain. We were to go into his office from the corridor in twos for 3 of the best. A friend and I were the last two, my mate was about to bend over when I put my hand on him and said “no”. The head asked me what’s up. I told him we were all doing what we thought was the right thing and that none of us should be caned for that and I stood my ground. He asked me to go back at 9:00 the next morning after he’d done some investigating. Turns out I was right and the other 10 got caned for no need simply because they didn’t assert themselves. What did they learn and what did I learn? They learnt about injustice. I on the other hand learnt about justice. Stand up for yourself and you will get justice.


The Nice Guy/Nice Woman leads a double life! Simply because they don’t assert their needs when they should. These are the Saints (they think they are) who actually become the Martyrs! I think of my stbxw as two people and two people who cannot or will not see the other person. I think on it as a form of schizophrenia quite simply because she never admitted to her downside. All the while I thought my wife was happy. She wasn’t! What a waste of time that was for me!


----------

