# No mr nice guy book: does it apply to wives too?



## diwali123

Just wondering if it's something you can adapt to women? I took the test and I'm too nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan

It definitely applies to women as well. Anyone can be a pleaser and not understand how to enforce personal boundaries with others.

It means having the light bulb moment when you realize that you need to articulate your feelings and learn to say no to demands that exhaust you. It means that your point of view is just as valid as your partner's. It means that you think about what action you can take to get what you want without being passive-aggressive.
It means learning take the lead in areas where you excel. It means picking your battles, and sticking to your guns with issues that are important to you. 

It works both at home and in the work place to make your relationships stronger.


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## lamaga

I haven't read the book, but yes, generally, it's good to stop being a Pleaser.


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## diwali123

One thing that confused me was in the quiz it asked of you get upset when your partner is sexually unavailable. Definitely a huge yes for me and I hate that. What does one thing have to do with the other?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

diwali123 said:


> One thing that confused me was in the quiz it asked of you get upset when your partner is sexually unavailable. Definitely a huge yes for me and I hate that. What does one thing have to do with the other?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It means your happiness lies in someone else. Nice girls give away their power just like nice guys do.


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## LovesHerMan

As I read the book, taking sexual rejection as a gauge of your self-worth is a nice guy attitude because you are giving your partner power over your feelings about yourself. You should figure out how to arouse your partner, through actions or by explaining that sex is how you connect emotionally to them. If all of your best efforts fail, you should consider leaving to find someone with whom you are sexually compatible.

Nice guys/gals retreat when they are rejected sexually. Instead you need to be pro-active to figure out how to get what you want. Do not allow another person make you feel bad about yourself is the thinking here.


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## diwali123

Oh ok. That makes sense. We are in MC with a sex therapist, partly because of these issues. It's not my self worth though, it's the fact that I'm horny and I want him to want me. I guess I'm confused. I have talked to him and we have fought about this a lot. 
Actually I think we both were nice guys in our previous marriages and we are trying to figure out how to avoid falling in that trap again. Sometimes I feel like he goes too far to the other extreme and is too selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan

Have you determined the reason for his lack of interest in sex? That is crucial to figure out--is it depression, too much porn, lack of self-esteem, low test, fear of failure?

Aristotle started a thread about males with low sex drive--good info there.


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## Mavash.

diwali123 said:


> Sometimes I feel like he goes too far to the other extreme and is too selfish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo!


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## diwali123

He honestly doesn't like a lot of porn. The thing is I was the second person he had slept with. His ex went from not caring about sex to wanting to sleep with other people and swing and turned into a WW who was sleeping around. 
I think he felt pressured by me after the initial excitement wore off. He told our therapist sex feels like a chore because I squirt and we had to put special sheets on the bed and then wash them. After that my desire has gone way down. She suggested we get chux which we have been using but he said we still have to take the time to put them on. Oh the horror. 
I'm hoping the therapist can help. 
As for your self worth being based on your spouse thinking you are attractive, it's like this. How else do I feel attractive if I'm not allowed to get that from other people? It's like telling someone they can't eat what other people cook but they aren't going to cook for you either. 
We used to do it all the time and experiment. For a while it was every other day and now it's like once a week and very vanilla missionary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

diwali123 said:


> How else do I feel attractive if I'm not allowed to get that from other people?


If I told you my husband thought I was unattractive would you believe him? What if 20 people said I look good and 30 said I'm ugly? Who do I believe?

The answer is you believe none of this. What matters is how I feel about myself. If I think I'm beautiful then I'm no longer a slave to other people. My attitude then is either you agree with ME or you don't. Easy enough.


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## Nsweet

That book is the biggest overrated self-help piece of sh!t I have ever read.


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## Lon

Nsweet said:


> That book is the biggest overrated self-help piece of sh!t I have ever read.


but you do not suffer from nice guy syndrome, so of course you'd think that. Also it's written from the point of a nice guy, for nice guy's and is not intended as advice for women... I think the author even announced that it is not for women.

I personally think there are a lot of things in common between the nice guy and a codependent, and for women suffering from codependence I could see how the solutions in nmmng could appear to be applicable, maybe even effective, however looking at the whole picture it is a different overall problem. So I guess take what advice you can use and leave the rest, however the book is specific to guys like me who are stuck and have always been stuck trying to please others, completely not even knowing WHAT I want i life and being frustrated going nowhere and not being able to have a plan because of my own ingrained self-limiting attachments.

The book is not BS because it completely nails my issues and offers a practical solution (though has yet to be determined if its effective).


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## As You Wish

Lon said:


> The book is not BS because it completely nails my issues and offers a practical solution (though has yet to be determined if its effective).


Shouldn't that be a "possible solution" then?


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## Lon

ok then, it offer a practical "suggestion". By practicality I mean it actually has exercises to work on, rather than just thoughts to ponder.


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## Nsweet

I hate talking about the "nice guy complex" but here goes. You were not always a nice guy and so codependent, these are learned traits you picked up from others rewarding your submissive behavior. It's not from mother, it's not from how you were bullied in school, its not from your f*cking job or your horrible ex, it's all been from you.

You were not this way before you were married or else your wife wouldn't have been attracted to you in the first place. No, you got there after your wife set boundaries and attempted to control your behavior to conform you into her ideal image. You knew this was happening and resented her pushing you but were too scared to lose her to stand up for yourself. In time you lost all attraction you had and lost who you were as a man, you found yourself a helpless boy married to a carbon copy of your mother. 

In case you hadn't heard women DO love nice guys. Nice guys listen, nice guys care, nice guys don't beat the sh!t out of their lovers the way jerks do. But you're not a nice guy are you? You are a wimp and too scared to accept that so you hide under the guise of "nice guy" and tell yourself you know you're doing the right thing. That is until you snap and in a fit of insecurity start treating everyone with disrespect and over compensating for being a wimpy push over.

As a human being you are selfish and concerned with only your need to survive. As a social creature you will sacrifice to be accepted into a group and acquire a mate even if only temporary. As a modern man you have a learned set of morals that you follow to "do unto others","help out those you care about","don't be evil". You don't have to hand over your masculinity and snap to every request. You're a grown @$$ man and know you can say no whenever you want to, but there are some sacrifices in life you have to make for others against your will to be happy. Ie waking up at 2am to drive a friend in need to the hospital for an emergency. 

I stand by my statement! That book is the biggest piece of sh!t since Tony Robbins' self help books. 

If you want a good book that will teach you a great set of morals and leadership values then pick up 'Bushido: The Spirit Of Japan'. It's the Japanese explanation of the key values behind Samurai warriors and been used by everyone from boy scouts to military officer training to presidents Theodore Roosevelt and JFK. It's all about making the choices you know are right and being consistent in being a nice guy even in the face of an aggressor, but not standing down - After all they were Samurai.


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## Lon

nsweet you do not get it, us "wimps" have been spending our entire life trying to emulate the way of the warrior and no matter what we do or don't do we can't get there. So PFO with your patronization. I've spent my whole life being a wimp, trying not to be a wimp and failing. I never felt weak, but I feel ashamed because society, indicates that I am weak for my passive nature, taking the longview and just steering clear of trouble rather than trying to go through it.

Reading your book does nothing different then every other arrogant conflict-loving adrenaline junky would lecture others about. It's not about standing up for your principles, its about having principles that accomodate variety and having tolerance, not giving a F about people who think they are better than others.


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## Nsweet

What do you mean "us wimps" are you assuming I wasn't a wimp myself and am trying to help you? Maybe the author was right about "wimps" rejecting all forms of criticism that conflict with their self delusional comfort.

What's your point? You really want to live a life validating yourself through other's perception or judgement of you? Does it make a difference how you believe others see you? Who cares what other's think of you! That just shows they have nothing better in their life than to judge others. Can you honestly say that you're happy living a life based on regret for how you believe you should be in society?

I could point you in the direction of self help and therapy or save you the trouble and just teach you to say "Whatever, f*ck it!". Wife wants to leave you for another man?..... "F*ck it! Go enjoy your affair while you can.". Girl rejects you at a club "F*ck it!" let her enjoy life with that attitude. Ice cream store out of your favorite flavor? "**** it!" Order another one. 

Don't you see worrying only gets you nothing but trouble. So what if you're an introverted guy and cry at sad movies..... so do I. If someone gives me trouble and it's meaningless I don't make a fuss and let them spin their wheels. Ex wife calls to complain.... she gets voicemail. Girl at a bar rejects me.... "Ok bye". Ice cream store out of my flavor.... I order another one. Someone stands there yelling in my face.... I let their anger pass through me like air and ask them what's wrong. Get to the real issue.

If you think I'm being a D!ck and judging you and it's hurting your feelings. Then you are worrying way too much about what other's think of you. "Ok he's being a jerk, whatever!"


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## diwali123

I think my husband and I would both benefit from that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

Nsweet said:


> What's your point? You really want to live a life validating yourself through other's perception or judgement of you? Does it make a difference how you believe others see you? Who cares what other's think of you! That just shows they have nothing better in their life than to judge others. Can you honestly say that you're happy living a life based on regret for how you believe you should be in society?


No I don't want that, or atleast I've been told over and over it's not what I should want. Yes it does make a difference how others see me, or atleast others who have some influence in my life, either those I respect or those with power/authority or those whom have the ability to have any control over my circumstances. I may not want it but it is the only way I've ever known how to function, and I am trying to not give a fck about what others think, but I do, the inescapable truth at the core is it is all I know. In my attempts to not give a fck I have now completely isolated myself, have no friends other than a few here, I have some acquaintances but they belong in certain compartments. It is gd lonely and depressing and I want out but I can't see a first step. Since reading nmmng atleast it is telling me, finally for once in my life, there is a first step and it is building me up to take it.

I do a lot of the things you do about not giving a fck about my ex's problems, but it's only cause she lost my respect and when she left she no longer had any power over me, and I have only realized that she really has very little control over my circumstances - but I can only not give a fck about people I have no use for, and I generally see the big picture that everyone has a use, so I always allow that dynamic to set the agenda, I never make it about me even when I really want to which is why we go about the wimpy way of going after things.

NG is about completely submissive males trying to get by in a world that requires us to dominate out own life sometimes. So yes you are right, a man has to do what is right, I will look at your reading suggestion, but without the knowledge I've gotten about myself from reading nmmng I wouldn't be able to process the peaceful warrior in any kind of meaningful or effective way.


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## deejov

For most people... and society is a big cause of this... one's self esteem is based on opinions.

What is an opinion? Well it's something that really cannot be proven true.

If someone mistakenly identified YOU as the person who robbed a bank, would you not fight very hard to prove, all the way to court, that it is a lie? 

But when someone tells you or gives you the impression that you are not good enough, or thin enough, or attractive enough, why would you believe it, hook line and sinker???

It's their opinion. It's NOT a fact. 
Who is more attractive?? You could get 1,000 people in a room, take a poll, and you would still never get a FACT out of it. 

What does really matter? You decide. But sometimes it can come down to how you treat people, not their "opinion" of you.

I can learn to respect that someone doesn't like me, or think I'm attractive. Because of free will. Heck, I do the same to others.

But I don't let their opinions cloud me.


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## nice777guy

Boy - this got fun quickly!

To OP - I agree with Lon - there are a lot of parallels between Codependent No More and NMMNG.

I think Beattie's Codependent books seem to have a broader appeal and a bit more depth.


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## nice777guy

Nsweet said:


> It's all about making the choices you know are right and being consistent in being a nice guy even in the face of an aggressor, but not standing down - After all they were Samurai.


When the "aggressor" is your "partner" its a bit trickier. 

Someone who treats you kindly 75% of the time and mostly seems to have your best interest in mind. Mostly.

Someone who never attacks you - directly.

Someone you care about and took vows to love, honor, cherish, and protect.

Wondering how the Samurai dealt with Passive Aggressive Mother-in Law's...


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Nsweet said*: I could point you in the direction of self help and therapy or save you the trouble and just teach you to say "Whatever, f*ck it!". Wife wants to leave you for another man?..... "F*ck it! Go enjoy your affair while you can.". Girl rejects you at a club "F*ck it!" let her enjoy life with that attitude.


 This sounds very "angry" to me. I see what you mean but yet, to deny these things HURT you is to LIE to yourself also. And maybe even worse....If none of this hurts, you have taught yourself to become "numb" along the way. 

We can't selectively numb what we want (wouldn't that be nice!)..... it also takes a hit on mountain top experiences. Maybe the nice guy goes too far in one direction (overly sensitive with passiveness to keep peace) but this is going too far in the other....as in "nothing can touch me... I am made of stone". 

We need a healthy balance on our emotions in how to deal with crushing rejection & various conflicts as to not hustle for acceptance , or be too passive to keep peace -in exchange for who we really are -when inside we are screaming ..."This is not right". 


My husband was never the "F*** it" type... he is a very sensitive man... (I love this about him) ... But one thing I DIG is this.....he has never cared what others think outside of his circle of ....me, the kids, his family, friends, and well... you want to get along with those you work with so you have a livlihood ...Not that you need to impress anyone but "peace" at work makes for less stress in life. Me, on the other hand, I seem to care more than him outside of this circle. 

There is no crime in being sensitive to how others perceive us, we would all choose to be looked upon as someone interesting, enjoyable to be around.......but *we CAN'T allow others to define us *.. Critics ARE everywhere & many even put us down ...in order to lift themselves up. 

As a woman, I would consider myself very sensitive...but I also can be tough as nails, you don't want to mess with me either or you are asking for a response. I have no desire to loose my sensitive nature...... when I am hurt, I DO feel like I have been knocked to the ground, I may say "F*** it" while I am crying up a storm........ but I refuse to stay down there & eat dirt....I will evaluate what has been spoken against me... if there is any merit to it (many times there is a shred of truth in our critics words -but not always, sometimes it is just cruelty)- for whatever reason. 

After I have muddled through that....I never allow it to destroy me...I might have gained some valuable insight even...I might even thank them ! Boy that comes off weird ! Or just allow such people to slide out of my life, they are not worth my time. Not everyone will like us...and it's Ok. But we are not mice, we have a voice, if they are important to us, we need to speak up!

I have even allowed little things said on this forum to get me down...(how rediculous is that) but at the end of the day.... We all have to be the Best *ME* we can be.... even if others may not LIKE us, cause guess what...someone else will come along and they will ! Those are the type we need to hang onto in our lives...surround ourselves with... who can see the genuine you & loves you anyway. 

Digging to live and breath & express in your own shoes before everyone should be our goal. Don't chamaflauge to "fit in"...people can be lonely in a crowd. I recommend this book above any self help book - when it comes to embracing who we are ...loving ourselves , feeling we are worthy...so we can freely love others. 

Amazon.com: The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are: Brene Brown: Books

I like "No MOre Mr Nice GUy" (bought it to evaluate my own husband)...he had some issues - ...we went through it. I think it deals with more of the outward expression of assertiveness -the tough side, don't be so NICE, don't be a pushover...The Book I mention is to allow the vulnberable side to come alive, It think this is even harder for most. 

A man needs both.... a woman needs both.


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## Nsweet

You think life isn't going to hurt you either way? Of course it will. There are just some superficial things you need to let go of sooner to save your own health and your relationships with others. Worrying about so-and-so not calling or what some stranger said to you in public is just not worth the fired synapse. Of course marriage problems and divorce are another story, but the same concept of "this and not that" still applies. 

This is not some psychological bullsh!t learned from text books either, I spent a while in a psych ward for suicidal attempts after I got out of the Navy. All therapy, re-education, and drugs will do for you is stake the stinger out and help you see things from a different perspective. 

To those who keep assuming I'm some aggressive jerk spouting "get over it" criticism.... You are talking to one of the sweetest guys you'd ever meet. I still give to people in need, I just don't let them take advantage of me. Hell, I love to sit and listen to people complain so I can help cheer them up after a traumatic ordeal.

Twice last week I did exactly that with a tortured girl from a chaotic relationship and a divorced women receiving death threats from H #3. Most of the time it's just about asking the right questions and helping them to stop defending their attacker in a codependent relationship. And you people think I'm not a nice guy?????


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## synthetic

Codependency is a symptom of the nice-guy syndrome not its parallel.

Codependency can be fixed with relative ease and naturally.

"Nice guy" syndrome is more of a personality malfunction. It's not necessarily a disorder because it doesn't cause any consistent and diagnosable mental or physical discomfort. It's just a constantly present force that shapes relationships into impractical dynamics and often leads to heavy levels of codependency.

The cause and progression of the 'nice-guy' syndrome is usually very different than what women may consider 'nice-gal' syndrome (which doesn't really exist with a parallel definition).

The 'nice-guy' syndrome has a lot to do with the role of men in society as taught by mothers and female teachers (elementary school).


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## Tall Average Guy

Nsweet said:


> You were not this way before you were married or else your wife wouldn't have been attracted to you in the first place.


Actually, this is not true. Many marry a "Nice Guy" thinking that is what they want, only to realize that it does not work over a long term relationship.

I quote this as just one example of your lack of understanding. The rest of your post is so full of errors, compounded anger, insults and self-righteous indignation that is lacking in real useful advice. You really need to work on that.


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## nice777guy

synthetic said:


> Codependency is a symptom of the nice-guy syndrome not its parallel.
> 
> Codependency can be fixed with relative ease and naturally.
> 
> "Nice guy" syndrome is more of a personality malfunction. It's not necessarily a disorder because it doesn't cause any consistent and diagnosable mental or physical discomfort. It's just a constantly present force that shapes relationships into impractical dynamics and often leads to heavy levels of codependency.
> 
> The cause and progression of the 'nice-guy' syndrome is usually very different than what women may consider 'nice-gal' syndrome (which doesn't really exist with a parallel definition).
> 
> The 'nice-guy' syndrome has a lot to do with the role of men in society as taught by mothers and female teachers (elementary school).


I will respectfully disagree. Same ideas - different marketing.

Men don't like self help books - especially if written by a woman.


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## Nsweet

Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, this is not true. Many marry a "Nice Guy" thinking that is what they want, only to realize that it does not work over a long term relationship.
> 
> I quote this as just one example of your lack of understanding. The rest of your post is so full of errors, compounded anger, insults and self-righteous indignation that is lacking in real useful advice. You really need to work on that.


Yeah is that so? I'll put that on my Nice Guy 'To Don't List' right after defending my stance and proving you wrong. I just don't care what you think.

BTW attacking me instead of giving your own opinion was not a very nice thing to do. Congratulations!:smthumbup: you're not a nice guy either.


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