# Help! Sexless marriage



## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

What does it mean when your wife says she can go the rest of her life without sex. It has been about 9 months since we did it.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

It means you need to make some hard decisions. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## renascent (Jun 11, 2014)

It normally means she isn't attracted to you. Have you read MMSLP/MAP/NMMNG?


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

I have read mmsl. I do not see myself as unattractive. I am about 6 ft tall. 200 lbs. in good shape. Never had problems with women. I am in my mid 40's married 18 years three kids. She says it is not me it is her. I thought the same thing that she is not attracted to me also. Is there anything else it could be?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

It probably means she does not have an innate desire for sex like you do. For you, the urge to have sex just happens. It's like getting hungry. It doesn't depend on you having a good day, feeling special, or anything else. You are just living your life and get the urge for sex. Your wife is not like that.

Probably, your wife's desire is more a reaction to external forces. In special situations like when the relationship was new or when you are on vacation or something like that, she may have a real desire for sex. But on a normal, boring Tuesday, no desire at all.

Here's a few things you can do:

-- Get her to have more desire. Have her go to a doctor to check her hormone levels. Change your behavior to increase her desire (MMSL). Tell her you will leave if things don't improve (feeling unsure of the stability in the relationship may increase her desire). 

-- Get her to agree to regular sex. Once a week is probably fair. Pick a certain day/time so that you both know when it is. She may agree to this because she loves you and wants you to be happy.

-- Live in a sexless marriage. She probably won't magically wake up one day and want sex. Find ways to make living without sex bearable.

Make a reasonable attempt to work this out with her. But if she's not willing to make any sort of effort, consider leaving. You will both be better off with more sexually-compatible partners. Living celibate can be soul crushing.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

Have tried many times. Soul crushing is putting it lightly. It is a prison. I have tried many things. Trying to negotiate sex once a week did not work. As you guessed it, it put to much pressure on her. Ultimatly I might have to leave, Just want to give it a good try. Kids involved and do not want to divorce yet.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

Any Kind of ideas would help. What do you need to know?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Tell her she's free to make those kinds of life altering permanent decisions for herself, but that you're not going to give her the power to make that kind of decision for you. You know, set a firm boundary. Then go find yourself a girlfriend. It's not cheating if you tell her what you're doing. It's her choice.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read neuklas's thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

How do I get to his Thread?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Amplexor; said:


> Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving.
> 
> However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage.
> 
> A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told her we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.


Regulars are probably getting tired of me posting this but it worked. I posted this in July 2012. To this day, we are still in a mode that rejection is very rare. After 20 plus years of marriage and a long drought in the bedroom, she finally came to understand that my desire for sex was an important part of my happiness in the marriage. Her previously high drive had died and I heard many of the same things many do. "I could live without it forever" Well, I can't and I won't. If you want me to be happy as a person and in my marriage, we've got to find a way to get on the same page. If we don't we'll slip back into the same routine of rejections and resentments. It will be unhealthy for our marriage if we don't address this. She is now and has been since this conversation an engaged and enthusiastic lover. And I have continued to provide her with the emotional attention she desires in our relationship. It is very much a two way street. The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them. This worked for us but I wouldn't guarantee it will work for all. At the time I did it I was aware of the possibility that her response could be "Go **** yourself Amp!" She didn't and it was the last conversation we ever had to have on the subject of sex.


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## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Sporto said:


> I have read mmsl. I do not see myself as unattractive. I am ....blah blah


You should actually do what is in the book, or in NMMNG.
A 180, MAPPING, etc.

You need to change. You need more friends, more activities, and get healthier than you've ever been before. And face some personal issues & resolve them. You need to get so busy you have little time for sex, let alone pine for it. You need to live a life where your wife factors into it very little. 

And there will come a day when you suddenly realize, with total honesty, that you could take her or leave her. Either way is fine by you. And that will be the same week she jumps all over you.

Have you both read 'Sheet Music' by Dr. Leman? If you can get her to read that, and she still doesn't try... then you know she never will. It truly does lay out why an LD spouse should put in the effort to please someone they love. Because they love them! (It works both ways, and not just about sex, btw). But this book is a shortcut that at best is only temporary. Hell, any book is if action isn't put forth.


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## LolaLynn (Jun 10, 2014)

Sporto said:


> What does it mean when your wife says she can go the rest of her life without sex. It has been about 9 months since we did it.


I couldn't for the life of me understand why she would want to go the rest of her life without sex! Did she just change overnight?


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

I have read MMSL, I have looked at no more mr nice guy and that is not me. I make good money and I am in good shape. I have a lot of activities and have very little free time. I have made a lot of changes in my life and feel better in my 40's than I did in my 20's.
I am looking for advise that I have not recieved I will read your suggestion. Thanks!


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

She changed right after we had kids.


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## bc100201636 (Jun 11, 2014)

give her sex enhancement tablets without informing her . then see some romantic tv chanel together / when you see she is getting hot , then ignore her .dont tuch her totally, do this two time in a week for one month . . in this period you care her specially . and give her some nice gift , may be at end of month you feel some change.... and your life become colorful again .


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You can always try the "if sex is so unimportant to you, then you won't mind if I take a 20 year old mistress?"...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Sporto said:


> She changed right after we had kids.


For her, sex was a like a hobby. I'm sure you had hobbies before the kids that you don't do anymore. Let's pretend you were into rollerblading. Before the kids, you eagerly looked forward to going out several times a week. But now with the kids, there are way too many time pressures. You have other priorities and rollerblading is not even on the list anymore. If your wife wanted to go rollerblading like you did before kids, you'd probably tell her you can't because you have a mile-long list of things you need to get done.

One thing you have to do is let her know that sex must be part of the marriage. She can't wait for the urge to have sex. She needs to have sex because she loves you. Even if she doesn't feel like it, she still needs to put forth an effort. Obviously, don't force her to do things she doesn't want, but she should still want to help. Don't expect her to have the desire and don't make her feel bad that she doesn't. But she still should make an effort because it's important to you.

Like, if you asked her to help paint a room. She doesn't have a great desire to paint the walls, but she helps out because she knows it helps you and makes your life easier. If nothing else, she needs to view sex the same way. And likely, over time, she'll enjoy the time with you and knowing that she makes you happy even if she doesn't get her drive back.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

bc100201636 said:


> give her sex enhancement tablets without informing her . then see some romantic tv chanel together / when you see she is getting hot , then ignore her .dont tuch her totally, do this two time in a week for one month . . in this period you care her specially . and give her some nice gift , may be at end of month you feel some change.... and your life become colorful again .


Where do I get these tablest. LOL


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Sporto said:


> She changed right after we had kids.


From a woman's perspective I would say this sounds like hormones. Paired with it is not her love language so she doesn't feel the drive from that side either. Look up low progesterone and see if that matches her. If so see if she will let you get her an appointment with a doctor who works with bio-identical hormones. They will do a full hormone panel and see where she sits on everything and see if she needs anything. 

Also the book the sex-starved marriage is an excellent book. It has sections for both of you to see how the other is feeling. Sometimes like in Amp's situation they need to understand your feelings not just hear you complain.

I've been on the other side and the book helped me see his side until we found an answer and then T gave me back my man. Listen first to those who have been there and are now living the dream, like Amplexor.

And personally a lot of these suggestions would just piss me off and from what I hear from womens private discussions I'm not the only one! But you know your wife and will have to make the decision what might work. And if you don't know her maybe that should be the first step.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

PBear said:


> You can always try the "if sex is so unimportant to you, then you won't mind if I take a 20 year old mistress?"...
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She will get the message better if he takes a 55 year old mistress...

Does she work outside the home? Skeletons in closet? In shape? Self esteem? Cultural or religious issues? Affair? Resentment? Communication issues?

Before you embark in a campaign try to understand what you're dealing with.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Tell her she's free to make those kinds of life altering permanent decisions for herself, but that you're not going to give her the power to make that kind of decision for you. You know, set a firm boundary. Then go find yourself a girlfriend. It's not cheating if you tell her what you're doing. It's her choice.


:iagree::iagree:
Tell her you will get your needs met with someone else if she is unwilling.
You have nothing to lose at this point.:scratchhead:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Sporto said:


> What does it mean when your wife says she can go the rest of her life without sex. It has been about 9 months since we did it.


It means, she can go without it for 9 months and probably can go without it for the rest of her life.

I would certainly get sex elsewhere, if my wife wouldn't have sex with me.

There's no way, I wouldn't wait for 9 months to get it either, excepting things like separation for military service and or some sort of medical condition etc that prevents having sex for that length of time.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

The OP says his wife went off sex after the children arrived (for me a 'kid' is a baby goat!!).

There are so many women (my own wife included) who after children lose interest in sex. Maybe this is simply because we are basically here and marry to reproduce to ensure continuation of the species. Once she has done that, no need for sex.

Many women do not understand what sex means to men. For us its not all about reproduction...its about how we bond with our partner, how we show her we love her etc.

Your wife needs to know these things. If she understands and tries to make an effort and accommodate your needs willingly then you should bear with her and support her.
However if she doesn't then too right you need to tell her that you want sex (make love) with her because you love her...but if she denies you what is also a male basic need then you will seek sexual relief elsewhere.

It makes me so angry to read about wives who completely ignore their husbands sexual needs and desires simply because they have lost interest...but want all the other trappings of marriage; holding hands, snuggling up watching TV, nice house, own car etc ie. "respectability". But no sex.
I can't think of anything more selfish.

I get so envious when I read posts where married couples are so in tune with each other...both inside and outside the bedroom.


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## LolaLynn (Jun 10, 2014)

I get very jealous too when I hear couples who are enjoying a great sex life! It's not always the women though. I've been begging for sex from my husband for months and still nothing but he masturbates all the time! I go to bed every night practically naked and throwing myself at him. It's gotten to the point where I'm about to give up. We've been married for 10 years and I'm only in my 30's and way to young to go the rest of my life with no sex life!!! I can't for the life of me understand why a man would rather masturbate when he has a living, breathing naked women begging him for it. I could understand if I was really overweight and just let myself go after having kids, but I'm in better shape now than I was when we married. It's really making me resent him and wanting to go elsewhere to get what he won't give me!


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

LolaLynn said:


> I get very jealous too when I hear couples who are enjoying a great sex life! It's not always the women though. I've been begging for sex from my husband for months and still nothing but he masturbates all the time! I go to bed every night practically naked and throwing myself at him. It's gotten to the point where I'm about to give up. We've been married for 10 years and I'm only in my 30's and way to young to go the rest of my life with no sex life!!! I can't for the life of me understand why a man would rather masturbate when he has a living, breathing naked women begging him for it. I could understand if I was really overweight and just let myself go after having kids, but I'm in better shape now than I was when we married. It's really making me resent him and wanting to go elsewhere to get what he won't give me!


I know what you mean! While I hate the idea of an affair, I feel like she is giving me no choice.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

Only 9 months so far? How long are you willing to wait? 

I am divorcing after nearly 8 years of sexless marriage... it took me a while but I am so happy.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

long_done said:


> Only 9 months so far? How long are you willing to wait?


A year should be the top end limit. If you go 30 to 45 days that should be the start of serious problems. This multi-year crap is for people who don't really care about the quality of their life.



long_done said:


> I am divorcing after nearly 8 years of sexless marriage... it took me a while but I am so happy.


Congrats. I'm not a fan of divorce, but I'm less of a fan of people being neglected of simple needs in a marriage. It makes the institution a farce and makes you look like a coward to your children!


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## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

You might need to contemplate that she wants sex, just not with you anymore.

Im willing to bet that she would be having sex if you two split up and she was looking for someone new. Since those lines wont work with a new person.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Janky said:


> You might need to contemplate that she wants sex, just not with you anymore.
> 
> Im willing to bet that she would be having sex if you two split up and she was looking for someone new. Since those lines wont work with a new person.


Happens all the time. So the new guy is like "well we are going to have to have sex or I'm gone" and she obliges.

For the man or woman who was made sexless and in a relationship with them it's very hard to reverse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sporto,

If she just does not have any interest in sex, it's most likely a hormonal issue.

Tell her that you are not willing to live in a sexless marriage. You know that there are things that she can do to bring back her sexual desire. Ask her to go to a doctor who specializes in women's sexual issues. Progesterone can make a world of difference.

There is even over the counter progesterone creams, usually available at health food stores. I've used them. They help a lot.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Sporto said:


> I know what you mean! While I hate the idea of an affair, I feel like she is giving me no choice.


Sporto - you are human...and a male human at that. We all want to be loved and sexually wanted by our partners. We also need sexual release. Its the way we are made.

Of course having an affair is not morally right or ideal....but if you are thirsty, there is nothing to drink at home what are you likely to do if someone else offers you a drink?
Like I said, we are human.

There are some wonderful and understanding people on TAM...but there are some who are holier than thou and will shoot you down in flames if you have an affair before divorce etc.
Sadly we do not live in an ideal world.

So if you do have an affair - as millions do - don't admit to it or mention it on TAM.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It's a challenging problem to fix. It's not quick fix. Women's sex drives are not like mens. There sex drive occurs in relation to your actions. They test men to make sure they are "worthy". So your wife has tested you. She tells you this, and if you accept it you fail. If you don't buy into it you pass. She is testing you to see are you strong enough to stand up for yourself? Are you strong enough to tell her that marriages are sexual, and without sex there can be no marriage? Are you strong enough to point out that children do best when raised in intact familes? That the children get a source of strength from a being raised in a loving, happy, fulfilling, sexual marriage? Are you strong enought to offer her a choice to be in your marriage together, creating something great... or step aside so you can find a true partner in life?

Oh, and by the way, if you are not meeting her emotional needs, whatever they may be, she will proably choose divorce over marriage to you.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Sporto said:


> I know what you mean! While I hate the idea of an affair, I feel like she is giving me no choice.


Its NOT an affair if you tell her about it first, and give her an opportunity to change her ways.

Just be sure SHE is not cheating on you now...otherwise your discussion will green light HER affair. It is not uncommon for a woman who gives her husband no sex to be giving some other man MAD SEX that you do not know about.

Bio-identical seeds, I hear, can really help with a woman's libido. The tricks are
1) having her realize she needs them
2) finding a doctor that is not in the dark ages to prescribe them for her


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Sporto,
> 
> If she just does not have any interest in sex, it's most likely a hormonal issue.
> 
> ...


Seeings how your asking about a woman's issue wouldn't it help to listen to what the women have to say.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

As for helping her see she needs them find a list of symptoms of low progesterone and give her the list with some of the ones listed that she cares about (things like tired or trouble making decisions are on most lists) and don't even comment on the sex part. Let her know you care about her.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Even if there is a medical issue, it's really not a good idea to tell your wife that she needs to have her hormones checked becuase of her low sex drive. That's also a fail of the test (here honey, you are broken but there is a pill that can fix you and I will then get my sex).
You have to define what the marriage needs to be, and she needs to take the actions to get there, whatever they may be.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some women may object to the hormonal treatment.... Especially if they believe they are ok in their mind...

Unless there are serious symptoms of course...


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Even if there is a medical issue, it's really not a good idea to tell your wife that she needs to have her hormones checked becuase of her low sex drive. That's also a fail of the test (here honey, you are broken but there is a pill that can fix you and I will then get my sex).
> You have to define what the marriage needs to be, and she needs to take the actions to get there, whatever they may be.


I strongly disagree, especially if you are coming to her saying "honey, you've been complaining about being tired, I read this today and wonder if it might be a help." On the other hand I can see coming to her saying "your broken fix it or I'm leaving" being a problem but isn't that what most of the posts here have said.

By the way I was the one who found that the answer for the things my husband had been complaining about were related to low T and he thanked me for finding it.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

John117~ there are a lot of things on the list of low progesterone that have nothing to do with sex. My migraine headaches were caused by low progesterone, no woman is gonna object to help with migraines! More painful periods is a symptom too!


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Does she really want to go through the rest of her life alone or without a relationship? 

If she really means what she says, that: "i can go the rest of my life without sex", that translates to 'i forsake all future relationships with men'.

although some women would be happy with that, i think the majority are not. 

I vote with the majority here. Call her on it. No more sexless or you're gone.........


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Here is a list with plenty of things that would not come off as selfish if a man got his wife help.

Symptoms of low progesterone levels can include:

Abdominal bloating
Anxiety
Aching joints and muscles
Acne
Aggressiveness
Allergic issues
Arthritis
Asthma – menopausal onset
Bladder problems
Breast tenderness
Chronic stress
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Cold hands and feet
Constipation
Cramping (or dysmenorrhoea)
Crawling sensation in skin (called formication)
Darkening under the eyes
Decreased libido (or sexual desire)
Depression
Dizziness that reoccurs
Dry eyes
Endometriosis
Facial hair
Fainting
Fibroids
Fibrocystic breasts
Fibromyalgia
Fluid retention
Foggy thinking
Headaches
Hot flushes
Hypoglycaemia
Infertility
Insomnia
Irregular periods
Irritability
Memory problems – poor short term memory
Menopausal symptoms – including painful, heavy, irregular bleeding
Migraines
Mood swings
Muscle loss
Night sweats
Osteoporosis
Palpitations
Pain and inflammation
Panic attacks
Polycystic ovary syndrome
Poor concentration
Post natal depression
Pre Menstrual Syndrome (PMS) or Pre Menstrual Tension (PMT)
Stress incontinence
Thrush (or Candida) that persists
Thinning hair
Weight gain
Vaginal dryness


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sporto said:


> She changed right after we had kids.


I realize you aren't keen to divorce and doing so would be disruptive to the kids. Try to view the world from her perspective for a second, though. Why does she stay married to a man she doesn't desire? What's in it for her? How would her life change if you divorced her? 
Imagine you are a boss and you have an employee who refused to do what you asked of them. You don't want to disrupt the company by firing them, so you keep giving them promotions and raises. Why would they alter their behavior? They are getting what they want from the position. What would happen if you made it painfully clear to the employee that they will lose all the benefits of employment unless they substantially improve their performance? Some people will be just as lazy and exploitative as they are permitted to be. Sexual withholding, like any other kind of abuse, exists only in an environment where it is tolerated.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Unbelievable,
Why don't you share with Sporto the stuff that has worked for you to get your W to give you more sexual energy. 

You use an analogy below, and a valid one. But specifics would likely help him. 





unbelievable said:


> I realize you aren't keen to divorce and doing so would be disruptive to the kids. Try to view the world from her perspective for a second, though. Why does she stay married to a man she doesn't desire? What's in it for her? How would her life change if you divorced her?
> Imagine you are a boss and you have an employee who refused to do what you asked of them. You don't want to disrupt the company by firing them, so you keep giving them promotions and raises. Why would they alter their behavior? They are getting what they want from the position. What would happen if you made it painfully clear to the employee that they will lose all the benefits of employment unless they substantially improve their performance? Some people will be just as lazy and exploitative as they are permitted to be. Sexual withholding, like any other kind of abuse, exists only in an environment where it is tolerated.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sporto,
How often have you initiated in the last 9 months? 

How many hours a week do you spend together and what do you typically do during that time. 





Sporto said:


> What does it mean when your wife says she can go the rest of her life without sex. It has been about 9 months since we did it.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Once more, I bow my head and thank the Lord God that my xwife had an affair. Lead me to get out of the onesided relationship.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Hoosier said:


> Once more, I bow my head and thank the Lord God that my xwife had an affair. Lead me to get out of the onesided relationship.


How soon did you realize that you were blessed?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Except Lila for me it's basic food and for my husband it's dessert. We were just talking about this last night. He said it had taken a while but one day he finally realized it was a real need for me, he always thought it was just a fun thing married people do together. Without him understanding it was a need I was just a spoiled kid whining for more dessert. Once he realized it was a need, he really, really, really tried to get his low T body to take care of me. It was still tough but it really changed a lot he was doing it for me, not just to avoid a conflict.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

the2ofus said:


> Except Lila for me it's basic food and for my husband it's dessert. We were just talking about this last night. He said it had taken a while but one day he finally realized it was a real need for me, he always thought it was just a fun thing married people do together. Without him understanding it was a need I was just a spoiled kid whining for more dessert. Once he realized it was a need, he really, really, really tried to get his low T body to take care of me. It was still tough but it really changed a lot he was doing it for me, not just to avoid a conflict.


Did the sex that he didn't think he "needed" help him in any kind of ways? 

I was just curious, because I suspect many LD's drives have diminished but with regular use whether they want to or not, that it will raise and T levels and feelings of well-being will also improve.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Sporto,
> How often have you initiated in the last 9 months?
> 
> How many hours a week do you spend together and what do you typically do during that time.


Like he :iagree: said plus...

1)How *exactly* do you initiate?
2)What *exactly* is her response?
3)What *exactly* is YOUR response to HER response?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

His T levels were still sunk. And the interesting thing is low T made him feel like he just didnt want anyone touching him. So no it didnt really help, he enjoyed seeing me smile, he enjoyed my buttons being reset and not seeing me upset but personally he would have been the same without it. Stress raises cortisol levels and cortisol lowers T, so me not stressing him about sex cause he did it helped but I often commented I felt like something on his to do list. It was not out of fear or guilt that he tried to please me but out of love. At some point I had to realize he was trying and he was doing it FOR ME and I tried to let him know how much I appreciated that. He was passionate about me cause he was giving his all when there was so little to give.

He went on the shots for a short time, found out this was definitely the problem and we checked out some programs and went hard core hitting the problem from a more natural side. But even now I still don't think it's the emotional need for him that it is for me.

I did like the part of the double your T program that is daily sex! .


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

How many men who think its appropriate for a sex-starved married man to get a 20 yr old mistress and have daughters about that age? Would you want a bunch of middle aged men looking to use your daughter for their sexual relief. 

What is the significance of using 20yr old women for sexual releof. Do you think they are somehow easier to manipulate into letting a sex crazed man use them? Or is the wife plan B for sex because she happens to be on site? Is it the 20 yr old you really want to use? 

What men say affects women's view of their sexuality. I can see why women grow to distance themselves from a man whose plan A is to use a girl the age of their daughter for sex. The wife is plan D just because she happens to be a convenience vj. Seems sensible to me. Why should she believe all that sh!t about love and connection if he is looking for a convenient orifice for relief. 

Women are blamed and scolded for losing interest in sex with their husbands. But the husband takes no responsibility for the problem. He spouts off about his fantasy of 20 yo women eager to fall at the feet of a sex- starved man trolling for a 20 yo orifice for relief?? Then wonder why their wives who don't fit his mold but, have self-respect, refuse to be used. MmIs it porn that fuels this disgusting pursuit? There must be at lest 20 of them with their tongues hanging out, crowding around each young women like hovering gnats. 

Who would chose to have sex with a man with so little respect for himself or his wife or daughter or woman in general. Just D and put yourself out to compete with young men. And hungry D men trolling for hot young chicks for sexual relief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> How many men who think its appropriate for a sex-starved married man to get a 20 yr old mistress and have daughters about that age? Would you want a bunch of middle aged men looking to use your daughter for their sexual relief.
> 
> What is the significance of using 20yr old women for sexual releof. Do you think they are somehow easier to manipulate into letting a sex crazed man use them? Or is the wife plan B for sex because she happens to be on site? Is it the 20 yr old you really want to use?
> 
> ...


I'd have less of a problem of a respectful man of 20 years older who is going to help her being her boyfriend than a disrespectful, rude, has nothing going on boy around her age.

That's my opinion.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

I was looking at the list of symptoms of low progesterone that i listed above and seeing how many I had personally dealt with. And thought I wouldn't suggest any man go and tell his wife that progesterone could help with her mood swings, libido, and weight gain. You might just be looking for trouble if you do that. :rofl:


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

the2ofus said:


> I was looking at the list of symptoms of low progesterone that i listed above and seeing how many I had personally dealt with. And thought I wouldn't suggest any man go and tell his wife that progesterone could help with her mood swings, libido, and weight gain. You might just be looking for trouble if you do that. :rofl:


You mean to tell me that their life could be made unstable and quality of life diminished because of this, but they don't want to hear it from a man?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

treyvion said:


> I'd have less of a problem of a respectful man of 20 years older who is going to help her being her boyfriend than a disrespectful, rude, has nothing going on boy around her age.
> 
> That's my opinion.


Since her choice for a bf has nothing to do with your fantasies about the merits of middle-aged men she has nothing to worry about. These men don't respect a woman 20 yrs younger; they don't even understand them. They are at different stages in life. You want your daughter to be helped or molded by a her bf? 

That's not a bf that a father figure. She already has a father. If she has matured why do you would you want her to be hampered with a man she cannot grow freely? She does not need a helper mentor she needs a man who shares her generation values and stage in life. 

This myths from middle aged about young men. It's so obviously self serving. These older men trolling for sex have the lest respect for women. They are the lest capable of satisfying relationships for them. 

There is also the claim of the sexual superiority of middle aged men. That's really a fantasy. Young men know more about sex than the average man 20 yrs older. These men are not updated on the latest info on female sexuality.

It's a generational thing. Young me. expect women to be interested in sex and to have had multiple partners. Older men are looking for virgins to conquer. Young men know that women have orgasms. 20 yrs ago, women who didn't have orgasms and were blamed. They know women have a clit which was not true for the average man 20 yrs ago. They know that they need to be good at oral sex and young men have a short refractory period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Since her choice for a bf has nothing to do with your fantasies about the merits of middle-aged men she has nothing to worry about. These men don't respect a woman 20 yrs younger; they don't even understand them. They are at different stages in life. You want your daughter to be helped or molded by a her bf?


How could you know for sure? Men of 50 years old will go as far down to 30 years old for a relationship partner. Going into the twenties is a risk because of the change and turmoil in that population. 



Catherine602 said:


> That's not a bf that a father figure. She already has a father. If she has matured why do you would you want her to be hampered with a man she cannot grow freely? She does not need a helper mentor she needs a man who shares her generation values and stage in life.


Large age gaps have occured over 1000's of years. I personally have no problem with an older man being with my daughter and think she can give her a viewpoint the younger man cannot give. 



Catherine602 said:


> I've head this myths from middle aged about young men. It's so obviously self serving. These older men trolling for sex have the lest respect for women. They are the lest capable of satisfying relationships for them. There is also the claim of the sexual superiority of middle aged men. That's really a fantasy. Young men know more about sex than the average man 20 yrs older. These men are not updated on the latest info on female sexuality.


I'm 42 years old. I've dated older women and younger, currently in a 14 years age gap. I am a risk taker, was before I met her, I am a fitness nut, and I like sex. Actually she is not as adventerous in the sex realm and I don't believe younger men know better about sex, older do due to experience. Sex and satisfaction of my female partner has always been important to me even down to 18 years old. I do realize that other men my age have been hardened into their ways. The one minute men and the pumper her and dumper types, get better at what they do over time.



Catherine602 said:


> It's a generational thing. Young me. expect women to be interested in sex and to have had multiple partners. Older men are looking for virgins to conquer. Young men know that women have orgasms.


All of my women have had orgasms, back to 18 years old. But I did know a majority of females I was the first one to give them one. Many of the guys who had more circulation than me and a higher body count had a bunch of women that got them off, but never had an orgasm.



Catherine602 said:


> 20 yrs ago, women who didn't have orgasms and were blamed. They know women have a clit which was not true for the average man 20 yrs ago. They know that they need to be good at oral sex and young men have a short refractory period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At 18 I had penis and orgasm control and was multi orgasmic as male. I know I have gotten better as I aged, because many things that people take for granted were very important to me, so I continously strived to improve. Just as I do today.

Would I want to go down to 21 years old? Probably not. Too much more trouble than it's worth.

Would I take an older babe these days? Sure. If I'm not in a relationship, I would take an older babe who is a master of the male ego and thinks mine should be the best. She needs to be in good physical shape, she needs to enjoy sex and she needs to not have to control her man, I'd love that.

No matter what any of us think, age gap relationships will occur and I'm now starting to see that it can be a benefitial thing for both parties.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Okay so not sure of you asked her point blank...just because you decided to stop having sex what am i suppose to do ...since this decision clearly effects me as well and most importantly i want to continue having sex...what are your suggestions?

also have you asked her if this is her way of telling you to that you have a hall pass to pursue other women?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

How do you know what women experience with younger Vs. older men? Why is it the older man with all of the good points and the younger man all of the bad? 

Men's egos are so strongly tied to sex that they believe anything that makes them feel that they have an advantage. How can middle-aged men be so superior for a woman 20 yrs younger. 

You told me about your experience let me tell you mine. I have never seen a good outcome from a relationship between a man 20 yrs older. The woman out grows the man and leaves physically or mentally. 

I work around a lot of middle aged wealthy men with trophy wives. There is a common theme - the relationship moves quickly, the men seem to fall hard and talk about his relationship with great pride.

Usually starts as an affair, D old wife, marry young woman quickly. The women want children early on. They have kids and man shows around pics. 

But these men get unhappy just as quickly. They go back to baseline grouchy or maybe worse. Complain about bleeding money, wife's time away doing her own thing, redecoration, looking for a house in Newport and spending an inordinate amount of time with children, her mother and sisters. The usual. 

The problem for these men seems to be the mismatched stages in their lives. Their wives are gearing up with the babies, family, friends, celebrations, travel, having lots of money. 

This is the second time around for these guys. It's not new and unknown, they know how difficult it is. Some of them are nearing 60 with toddlers. 

At this stage in their lives, they probably imagined that the woman in their lives would finally put the focus on them with attention, companionship and communication. Instead, they are starting all over waiting for the children to grow up so they can finally be center stage. 

I don't know their wives but I doubt that they are any happier. I see them at parties and they are dressed beautifully. It's probably difficult to be with a man who can't keep up like a young father. Or that share so little of their lives.

So it's not all roses and stroked egos, they pay a price and it is sometimes steep. 

It's not only men though I think men have a hard time with it. I know 3 married couples where the woman is older by 10 or more yrs and women who date only younger men. That's becoming much more acceptable in the last couple of yrs.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> How do you know what women experience with younger Vs. older men? Why is it the older man with all of the good points and the younger man all of the bad?
> 
> Men's egos are so strongly tied to sex that they believe anything that makes them feel that they have an advantage. How can middle-aged men be so superior for a woman 20 yrs younger.


Who said a woman 20 years younger is a superior mate for a male?




Catherine602 said:


> You told me about your experience let me tell you mine. I have never seen a good outcome from a relationship between a man 20 yrs older. The woman out grows the man and leaves physically or mentally.
> 
> I work around a lot of middle aged wealthy men with trophy wives. There is a common theme - the relationship moves quickly, the men seem to fall hard and talk about his relationship with great pride.


I also agree that a man with a much younger wife ( 20 years ) will be less happy.



Catherine602 said:


> Usually starts as an affair, D old wife, marry young woman quickly. The women want children early on. They have kids and man shows around pics.
> 
> But these men get unhappy just as quickly. They go back to baseline grouchy or maybe worse. Complain about bleeding money, wife's time away doing her own thing, redecoration, looking for a house in Newport and spending an inordinate amount of time with children, her mother and sisters. The usual.





Catherine602 said:


> The problem for these men seems to be the mismatched stages in their lives. Their wives are gearing up with the babies, family, friends, celebrations, travel, having lots of money.
> 
> This is the second time around for these guys. It's not new and unknown, they know how difficult it is. Some of them are nearing 60 with toddlers.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> looking for a house in Newport...


SoCal, or a different Newport?

Seriously though, I think this bunny trail about the young, hot gf is missing the point. IMO, the one who suggested it might have been facetious.

Also, if that did happen... I think a big part of a sexless marriage is the LD partner (here, the wife) gets complacent. She comes to believe that he won't stray and/or he could not get anyone who would do more than she. That's why the advice to shake things up.

What better way to prove her wrong than to get with someone else? Making it a hot young woman (or a MILF would work just as well) is icing on the cake. That's really all there is to it.

We are not necessarily talking about the guy marrying the hot girl. I think most guys are realistic about the odds of such a relationship being emotionally satisfying. We are talking about the guy having some fun and proving to himself (and others) that somebody will step up and take care of his needs, even if not permanently.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

wilson said:


> It probably means she does not have an innate desire for sex like you do. For you, the urge to have sex just happens. It's like getting hungry. It doesn't depend on you having a good day, feeling special, or anything else. You are just living your life and get the urge for sex. Your wife is not like that.
> 
> Probably, your wife's desire is more a reaction to external forces. In special situations like when the relationship was new or when you are on vacation or something like that, she may have a real desire for sex. But on a normal, boring Tuesday, no desire at all.
> 
> ...


Sometimes the put out or im leaving speech doesnt always work, didnt work in my case anyway..


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: Re: Help! Sexless marriage*



Hoosier said:


> Once more, I bow my head and thank the Lord God that my xwife had an affair. Lead me to get out of the onesided relationship.


Sometimes I think it would be a lot easier should my wife walk down such a path or one similar. My own chronic indecision is killing me.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: Re: Help! Sexless marriage*



Xenote said:


> Okay so not sure of you asked her point blank...just because you decided to stop having sex what am i suppose to do ...since this decision clearly effects me as well and most importantly i want to continue having sex...what are your suggestions?



That is an approach to this problem that I have never thought about trying. This is the first time I have heard it suggested. Thanks!

Has anyone tried it?

I have used this approach in other contexts, say at work or with my kids. Seems to make the other stop and look at the problem from the perspective of one that wants to solve it, interrupting the other's focus on finding flaws with whatever I might be proposing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

treyvion said:


> I'd have less of a problem of a respectful man of 20 years older who is going to help her being her boyfriend than a disrespectful, rude, has nothing going on boy around her age.
> 
> That's my opinion.


Why do you assume that a guy 20 years older is going to help her and not be rude and disrespectful just like a guy of her own age?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> Some women may object to the hormonal treatment.... Especially if they believe they are ok in their mind...
> 
> Unless there are serious symptoms of course...


This is true. Some women might object. But it should at least be discussed.

On the other side of the coin, men who have issues such as low T, ED and other sexual disjunction often refuse to even discuss it with a doctor. I've read that shame is the primary motivator for them refusing to seek help and/or a solution.

When a person's sexual desire and/or performance takes a nose dive, both men and women don't often handle it very well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> SoCal, or a different Newport?
> 
> Seriously though, I think this bunny trail about the young, hot gf is missing the point. IMO, the one who suggested it might have been facetious.
> 
> ...


I agree... when a person's needs are not met in their marriage, an affair is the solution.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I agree... when a person's needs are not met in their marriage, an affair is the solution.


Definitely not what I'm saying. I don't think affairs help, and personal moral code doesn't allow it (which is why I passed on two sure things tossed in my lap).

All I am saying is (from a guy's perspective) older guys probably don't seek to make a life partner out of a much younger woman. I'm in my early 40s and don't see myself seriously dating less than her mid-30s (or maybe, depending on life experiences).

I understand the importances of having someone with the same current needs and "next steps" relationship-wise. But if by miraculous happenstance some pretty late-20s thing wanted to go our and knock around for the time being, that's a totally different thing.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jorgegene said:


> Does she really want to go through the rest of her life alone or without a relationship?
> 
> If she really means what she says, that: "i can go the rest of my life without sex", that translates to 'i forsake all future relationships with men'.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> Naturally, we are social beings and want that special someone. But, saying that a lady is doomed to being alone because she has an extremely low to non-existent sex drive is not accurate.
> 
> On TAM we hear about men equally ambivalent towards sex. There are couples out there who have sex once a year and make it work (as alien as that seems to us). There are guys with their own issues who might like having her around as she is.
> 
> ...


A few months ago there was a guy who was offering to have a relationship with me. He wanted to move into my place. He's retired from the military, in his mid 50's. I'm in my mid 60's. When he was listing his own good points he said that he loves doing housework and putting around the house and he has no need for sex. He was just looking for someone he cared for.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> SoCal, or a different Newport?
> 
> Seriously though, I think this bunny trail about the young, hot gf is missing the point. IMO, the one who suggested it might have been facetious.
> 
> ...


Do you really think that middle-aged men looking to relieve themselves and stroke their egos are attractive to pretty 20 something yr old girls? Why? They are in porn but not IRL. Pretty 20 yr olds don't offer themselves to sexually desperate older men with poor self esteem who need to feel good by fvcking them. 

Be realistic. Married, unmarried, separated and D men looking for hot 20 yr olds to have a little fun are the most abundant species on the planet. Hot 20 something yr old guys looking for fun, are not so easy to get. It's an ego boast to a hot 20 yr old woman to get one of those. 

My advice to men getting out of bad marriages: There are plenty of quality women who are looking for someone just like you and looking for the same things. They can give you what you are missing. Why quality women if you just want an ego boast with sexual relief? 

You are as likely to get used by a woman as you use women. There are women who are looking for free rides too. They know what to do to get one. Look for someone who needs what you have and you need what she has. Even if it's a ONS. Not every woman you meet wants to get married again or have a long term relationship. 

Don't get emotionally involved with the first woman you have sex with. She may or may not be 20 but she may not be what you need. Oh one more thing. It may be an ego boast to think that all women who are alone are lonely and unhappy. There are actually women who chose not to have men in their lives. 

My father is dead and my mother told me that she is glad that part of her life is finally over. She has full control over her life now and no desire to give that up for so little rerun. She is not abnormal.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The thing is that there are many reasons why a person might not want sex anymore. Find out why is important. 

Not everyone who does not want sex is a bad or selfish person. If it's caused by hormonal changes and other physical or even emotional issues. Often times the person has little to no control over it.

When it's a hormonal change, the effect is that people often don't just not want sex, they don't want to be touched. There is a change in what they need from a relationship. To demand from a person who has to desire for sex (based on hormonal changes) is not a good thing to do. 

(Note I am not talking about people who chose to no longer have sex with their spouse due to anger and/or other passive aggressive behaviors meant to hurt their spouse. That's a whole other issue.)

Sure it leaves the spouse who still desires sex in a bad place. This is the old '"in sickness and in health" part of the marriage vows.

If a person truly believes in the "in sickness and in health" part of their vows, they work with their spouse and with themselves to learn to live in a marriage without sex. No one has ever died from not having sex. It's perfectly doable.

If a person does not believe in what they promised in their wedding vows, then they either get their spouse to agree to an open marriage or they leave.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> A few months ago there was a guy who was offering to have a relationship with me. He wanted to move into my place. He's retired from the military, in his mid 50's. I'm in my mid 60's. When he was listing his own good points he said that he loves doing housework and putting around the house and he has no need for sex. He was just looking for someone he cared for.


He sounds like a decent guy, if it were not for the sex. Did he try to get help for his problem? What did you tell him? I don't know why men feel so ashamed of this. It's does not say anything about them as a man. It's just something that happens like hypertension or a rash. 

I see a lot of men talk openly on TAM about their experiences with low T and ED. They find solutions. I'll bet men who read and have the same problems are encouraged by their experiences and get going on solutions.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine, 

If M2 and I ever parted ways, I wouldn't have casual sex. Not because it's wrong, but because I am not wired for it. Sex isn't casual to me. 

I would have to at least really like someone before getting physical with them. 

My 3 date rule looks something like this: If there isn't mutual chemistry after 3 dates, there won't ever be. So acknowledge that and either be friends or move on. But just because you've reached the end if the third fun date, doesn't mean it's a good idea to sleep together. 





Catherine602 said:


> Do you really think that middle-aged men looking to relieve themselves and stroke their egos are attractive to pretty 20 something yr old girls? Why? They are in porn but not IRL. Pretty 20 yr olds don't offer themselves to sexually desperate older men with poor self esteem who need to feel good by fvcking them.
> 
> Be realistic. Married, unmarried, separated and D men looking for hot 20 yr olds to have a little fun are the most abundant species on the planet. Hot 20 something yr old guys looking for fun, not so much.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> He sounds like a decent guy, if it were not for the sex. Did he try to get help for his problem? What did you tell him? I don't know why men feel so ashamed of this. It's does not say anything about them as a man. It's just something that happens like hypertension or a rash.
> 
> I see a lot of men talk openly on TAM about their experiences with low T and ED. They find solutions. I'll bet men who read and have the same problems are encouraged by their experiences and get going on solutions.


I think he was a decent guy. He was at least very honest about things. I didn't talk to him about the sex thing because I was not interested in forming a relationship with him.

There are solutions for some men and women who are, or become, low drive. I don't understand those who will not look for solutions when their spouse desperately would like to continue to have a healthy sex life.

When a LD person refuses to look into solutions, I interpret that as a very non-love decision on their part. It's like having a broken leg and refusing to see a doctor about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> ...
> 
> My 3 date rule looks something like this: If there isn't mutual chemistry after 3 dates, there won't ever be. So acknowledge that and either be friends or move on. But just because you've reached the end if the third fun date, doesn't mean it's a good idea to sleep together.


What do you consider mutual chemistry? What has to happen for you to believe that there is mutual chemistry by date 3?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

treyvion said:


> You mean to tell me that their life could be made unstable and quality of life diminished because of this, but they don't want to hear it from a man?


Treyvion, you really don't get how that might not be the best approach to take?

My comment was in response to those saying the partner would not take it well. Most often there would be other issues you could mention that would be less offensive sounding. If she's mentioned migraines you dont need to mention the 20 lbs she's put on. Telling someone they were fat, cranky, and sexually broken is probably not the best way to approach them. And those could all come across as the person who mentions this is all about himself.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

the2ofus said:


> Treyvion, you really don't get how that might not be the best approach to take?
> 
> My comment was in response to those saying the partner would not take it well. Most often there would be other issues you could mention that would be less offensive sounding. If she's mentioned migraines you dont need to mention the 20 lbs she's put on. Telling someone they were fat, cranky, and sexually broken is probably not the best way to approach them. And those could all come across as the person who mentions this is all about himself.


Yeah I know, they need to hear it from another woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

the2ofus said:


> From a woman's perspective I would say this sounds like hormones. Paired with it is not her love language so she doesn't feel the drive from that side either. Look up low progesterone and see if that matches her. If so see if she will let you get her an appointment with a doctor who works with bio-identical hormones. They will do a full hormone panel and see where she sits on everything and see if she needs anything.
> 
> Also the book the sex-starved marriage is an excellent book. It has sections for both of you to see how the other is feeling. Sometimes like in Amp's situation they need to understand your feelings not just hear you complain.
> 
> ...


And there in lies the problem. Multiply your anger and frustration by (insert appropriate multiplier here) and imagine how he would feel to see your anger to his suggestions?

We are men. We are not sitcom dads. Our blood is coursing with testosterone. It is much more difficult for us to curb our natural instincts. When we feel we need sex it's an all encompassing feeling. For the OP - I think he needs to abandon the Elle Magazine approach of "knowing your spouse" and just set some limitations and boundaries. Failing that he will never get sex from her again IMO.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm going to start on the outside and work my way inwards. 

The outside is my perception of someone's reaction to me. I'll break it down as best I can:
- attentiveness 
- interest level/engagement level - for instance how they act when asked for a subsequent date. 
- degree to which they seem to understand both complex topics and subtle/nuanced non verbal communication
- degree to which they are comfortable disagreeing with me and the tone they use in doing so (I like someone who says what they think, and also realizes that there is an art to disagreeing without being disagreeable)
- their receptiveness to my banter, sense of humor
- their usage of their own brand of humor 
- how happy they seem in general (this can be a bit tricky to gauge)
- how happy they seem to be - to be around me

As for the internal stuff - my reaction to them:
- Do I feel happy in their company
- Desire to get to know them better
- Like looking at them (this has just as much to do with their charisma level as their raw physical appearance)





EleGirl said:


> What do you consider mutual chemistry? What has to happen for you to believe that there is mutual chemistry by date 3?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT



EleGirl said:


> I think he was a decent guy. He was at least very honest about things. I didn't talk to him about the sex thing because I was not interested in forming a relationship with him.
> 
> There are solutions for some men and women who are, or become, low drive. I don't understand those who will not look for solutions when their spouse desperately would like to continue to have a healthy sex life.
> 
> When a LD person refuses to look into solutions, I interpret that as a very non-love decision on their part. It's like having a broken leg and refusing to see a doctor about it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

According to MEM's list I should have great chemistry with all our interns 

All except the one that looks (and dresses) like Miley Cyrus... Someone explain how she got into Princeton or what not...

I agree with the list but feel there's one more for intangibles. And chemistry often fails. I aced the three date rule with my wife


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I bet you do. You have integrity, that's why they don't overtly vibe you. 

There is that intangible. I won't try to pin it down, because I can't. I will however add to my chemistry list. 

Strength - this is incredibly appealing. It is correlated to having comfort voicing a differing viewpoint, but goes way beyond that. 

While it's hard to directly assess strength, I will say that it correlates highly to a few things:
- Adventurousness/risk taking (strong people aren't afraid to take some risks)
- A below average anger/fear response to random life hiccups

I think you take a bit of pleasure in stumping people John - because that intangible thing is still just outside my peripheral vision. It's like a pebble in my shoe - I know I should be able to define it but I can't. 




john117 said:


> According to MEM's list I should have great chemistry with all our interns
> 
> All except the one that looks (and dresses) like Miley Cyrus... Someone explain how she got into Princeton or what not...
> 
> I agree with the list but feel there's one more for intangibles. And chemistry often fails. I aced the three date rule with my wife


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There are solutions for some men and women who are, or become, low drive. I don't understand those who will not look for solutions when their spouse desperately would like to continue to have a healthy sex life.
> 
> When a LD person refuses to look into solutions, I interpret that as a very non-love decision on their part. It's like having a broken leg and refusing to see a doctor about it.


I absolutely agree.

Simultaneously, what my husband and I have learned is communication and needs not being met have a detrimental affect on our sex life. Yes, I'm stating the obvious to many. I didn't recognize this when I joined here. Thing is, both of us had to be part of the solution beyond sex - and both of us have also been motivated to bringing sexy back. For us, it couldn't occur without first addressing the other areas of connection.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's why we psychology majors make the big bucks . (Not)

I've often wondered about intangibles as I see the younger crowd at work date, marry, etc. More often than not the safe choice trumps chemistry and is the defacto intangible... 

There seems to be great numbers of low-everything, beta husband and beta wife safety first marriages, with no adventure.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

the2ofus said:


> And personally a lot of these suggestions would just piss me off and from what I hear from womens private discussions I'm not the only one! But you know your wife and will have to make the decision what might work. And if you don't know her maybe that should be the first step.


Agree, to a point. The OP should not be mean or unnecessarily hurtful when discussing this topic, because that just heaps extra resentment on the subject.

But, at the end of the day, you are essentially telling an LD person without too much empathy that the marriage will not last if she cannot / will not improve their sex life by a large amount. That will inevitably piss a lot of women off, no matter how nicely said. So, avoiding anger should not the standard by which the OP decides which actions to take.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> That's why we psychology majors make the big bucks . (Not)
> 
> I've often wondered about intangibles as I see the younger crowd at work date, marry, etc. *More often than not the safe choice trumps chemistry and is the defacto intangible... *
> 
> There seems to be great numbers of low-everything, beta husband and beta wife safety first marriages, with no adventure.


Because marriage is really serious. Who wants to take big risks with such a big decision? 

Most of us want to feel comfortable and, yes, safe. Most of us are making a nest to bring children into, so _safe_ is pretty important.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Sporto,
> 
> If she just does not have any interest in sex, it's most likely a hormonal issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks this is just the kind of advise I was looking for.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

the2ofus said:


> John117~ there are a lot of things on the list of low progesterone that have nothing to do with sex. My migraine headaches were caused by low progesterone, no woman is gonna object to help with migraines! More painful periods is a symptom too!


She has both of these systems, i a definitly going to start to look into this. I have not heard of this at all.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

the2ofus said:


> Here is a list with plenty of things that would not come off as selfish if a man got his wife help.
> 
> Symptoms of low progesterone levels can include:
> 
> ...


She checks a lot of these boxes.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Sporto,
> How often have you initiated in the last 9 months?
> 
> How many hours a week do you spend together and what do you typically do during that time.


In the last nine months I have not tried initiated all that much. The constant rejection was weighing on me too much. It was killing my confidence and self esteem. when I was initiating a couple of times a week it would be once every 1 to 3 months. Now that I have stopped it has been 9 months. I started to initiate last night and could have probablly pushed it and had sex but she started to say when I was kissing her she needed to breath and I could already see the excuses coming or duty sex which I did not want. How many hours do we spend together? That changes on a weekly basis. We will watch TV together (Bachelor, American Idol which is starting to bore me.) We spend it with the kids. There sports take a lot of our time.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Sporto said:


> In the last nine months I have not tried initiated all that much. The constant rejection was weighing on me too much. It was killing my confidence and self esteem. when I was initiating a couple of times a week it would be once every 1 to 3 months. Now that I have stopped it has been 9 months. I started to initiate last night and could have probablly pushed it and had sex but she started to say when I was kissing her she needed to breath and I could already see the excuses coming or duty sex which I did not want. How many hours do we spend together? That changes on a weekly basis. We will watch TV together (Bachelor, American Idol which is starting to bore me.) We spend it with the kids. There sports take a lot of our time.


Some are saying they have to initiate alot more than they want to get sex rate closer to what they really want it. Have to find a way to not allow the rejections to detract from your confidence and enjoy duty sex as much as possible even though you know that's what you will get.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sporto,



It may be hormonal, or otherwise be of physical origin. I think it was originally in my case.



Beware that even if it begins this way, mistakes can be made that add additional, non-physical factors -- including resentments, detachment from each other, passive-aggressive withholding, depression.



I don't have anything to offer you to help avoid that deterioration. I hope you both understand it is a risk.



In my case, I think my wife never understood or felt the risk. I, for too long, tried to manage it alone or was in denial. 14 years later not much is left.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Sporto,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The deterioration is real and over time it ca strip your confidence so low that you will "forget" how much you had before it. This will affect your entire life.

Some of the low sexual desire partners will agree to a schedule, and even thoughit's not their favorite thing a schedule helps them to prepare themself better than being asked at odd times.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

DTO said:


> Agree, to a point. The OP should not be mean or unnecessarily hurtful when discussing this topic, because that just heaps extra resentment on the subject.
> 
> But, at the end of the day, you are essentially telling an LD person without too much empathy that the marriage will not last if she cannot / will not improve their sex life by a large amount. That will inevitably piss a lot of women off, no matter how nicely said. So, avoiding anger should not the standard by which the OP decides which actions to take.


I totally agree with you! I worked hard to get my husband to understand that sex was a need for me, I needed that kind of connection for us to function as a team. Once he understood that he worked hard to reset my buttons on a regular basis not waiting until I was a wreck! The book sex starved marriage has a part for both the HD and LD to read. To understand themselves better and not feel bad and to help them understand their partner better. My husband had times with his low T that it physically hurt to be touched, so he would let me know and we would work with where we were, not just where I wanted us to be.

OP, wanted to encourage you that now that dh's T levels are doing better, I can hardly keep up. But he totally understood what your wife was saying when I read him your original post. Hormones are powerful things. Don't resent her for what has happened deal from the here and now, will she address this or not, will you work together toward a solution.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Sporto,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


all this has started to happen already.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thanks Man.

Would you mind if I asked you maybe 10 or so questions? Nothing R rated. It will give us a sense of how the two of you relate to each other. 





Sporto said:


> In the last nine months I have not tried initiated all that much. The constant rejection was weighing on me too much. It was killing my confidence and self esteem. when I was initiating a couple of times a week it would be once every 1 to 3 months. Now that I have stopped it has been 9 months. I started to initiate last night and could have probablly pushed it and had sex but she started to say when I was kissing her she needed to breath and I could already see the excuses coming or duty sex which I did not want. How many hours do we spend together? That changes on a weekly basis. We will watch TV together (Bachelor, American Idol which is starting to bore me.) We spend it with the kids. There sports take a lot of our time.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

the2ofus said:


> I totally agree with you! I worked hard to get my husband to understand that sex was a need for me, I needed that kind of connection for us to function as a team. Once he understood that he worked hard to reset my buttons on a regular basis not waiting until I was a wreck! The book sex starved marriage has a part for both the HD and LD to read. To understand themselves better and not feel bad and to help them understand their partner better. My husband had times with his low T that it physically hurt to be touched, so he would let me know and we would work with where we were, not just where I wanted us to be.
> 
> OP, wanted to encourage you that now that dh's T levels are doing better, I can hardly keep up. But he totally understood what your wife was saying when I read him your original post. Hormones are powerful things. Don't resent her for what has happened deal from the here and now, will she address this or not, will you work together toward a solution.


 A lot of resentment on my part. I am sure on her part now too.
There was a time in the past I would be like Yea!! Now I am tired and worn down. I have lost a lot of love for her. I have asked her to het her Homones checked in the past. She did go to the doctor on a regular shedule visit and had her blood taken. She said everything came back fine. I asked what they checked for and she said the normal things. It has been about year since we had THE TALK. Which we have had a lot. She probably thinks I am over it or something. I am sure I have made a lot of mistakes a long the way also. I am not perfect but if she were to come to me and say I need this or you are not doing this I would definitly address it. She has done nothing to seem interested in our sex life. I am raMbling.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Thanks Man.
> 
> Would you mind if I asked you maybe 10 or so questions? Nothing R rated. It will give us a sense of how the two of you relate to each other.


Ask away!


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Sporto said:


> I know what you mean! While I hate the idea of an affair, I feel like she is giving me no choice.


Don't have the affair. That was the route I took and it will forever haunt your life.

I too Begged and pleaded and wish I had just left.

Sporto, have her do all the medical check-ups first. You want to make sure there isn't something else going on. If all is good then ball is in her court.

I have kids and it was hard to want sex when they were young, I worked full time and then came home and finished the day with cooking, cleaning and being a mommy.

I do believe if my husband had picked up the slack I would have been more in the mood. However I never rejected my husband.

Its time for the talk. Offer to get her a little help a couple days a week (half day preschool or sitter)
maybe someone comes to the house a couple times a month and cleans bathrooms/windows.

Then also tell her that your willing to help her if she needs it, however your felling rejected and she needs to meet you half way.

You can say I love you, However I refuse to be in a sexless marriage. If she feels she no longer needs this connection, you need to make it clear that you do, her options are allowing you to have a girlfriend/mistress or divorce the options are hers.

She has choices, No man or woman should go through the rest of their life feeling rejected.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sporto,
One quick observation before I ask my questions. You are obviously committed to your family and making a major effort to make it work. That's huge. You haven't cheated despite the fact that you likely could do so pretty easily. And that shows the kind of character needed to work your way through a situation like this. 

The questions below are intended to help describe the dynamic between the two of you. 

1. How does your wife respond to you in comparison to:
- The children
- Her close friends and family
- Acquaintances/strangers

Is she generally:
(A) warm, friendly, considerate, communicative, and respectful? 
(B) is she more reserved, and somewhat unemotional? Or
(C) critical, tense and unhappy? 

I have a close relative who was mostly (A), with her friends and mostly B and C with her H. He spent less and less time with her, and she became more C with him. They are now divorced. 

In a healthy marriage, there is a lot of pursuit/capture. And while their is a main pursuer, that person leaves their spouse enough breathing room to switch roles and pursue them now and then. 

In an unhealthy marriage there is a lot of pursuit/avoidance, or another phrase is pursuit/rejection. Eventually this leads to mutual neglect. Neither spouse pursues the other. 

Pursuit/capture:
I say 'I love you', and she gives me a warm smile and says 'me to'. This isn't the mechanical/automatic - love you - at the end of a phone call or walking out the door in the morning. This is said with intent. 

I come up behind her and give a full body hug. She melts back into me and makes that little hmmmm - sound of happiness. 

I tilt my head and give her that smile, and she laughs and says 'tonight', and I nod. 

Pursuit/avoidance: (too much pursuit creates avoidance)
All that stuff above gets a lukewarm or cold response. 

Oddly enough it's often true that, in parallel to this the avoider asks the pursuer to do lots of nice stuff for them. Acts of service - that they could easily do themselves. Nice gifts for special occasions, etc. This creates a marital theme which is: My needs matter and yours don't. 

---------
Which of you primarily initiates:
- Saying ILY, giving compliments?
- Calling/texting during the work day?
- Physical touch/hugs, physical proximity sitting next to the other on the couch
- Asking for quality time, dates, doing something together?
- Asking for or volunteering acts of service?
- Giving gifts? 
- Sacrifice (putting the other persons desires first, when you each want something different)







Sporto said:


> Ask away!


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Sporto,
> One quick observation before I ask my questions. You are obviously committed to your family and making a major effort to make it work. That's huge. You haven't cheated despite the fact that you likely could do so pretty easily. And that shows the kind of character needed to work your way through a situation like this.
> 
> The questions below are intended to help describe the dynamic between the two of you.
> ...


 It depends but we both have made sacrifices.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Sporto said:


> A lot of resentment on my part. I am sure on her part now too.
> There was a time in the past I would be like Yea!! Now I am tired and worn down. I have lost a lot of love for her. I have asked her to het her Homones checked in the past. She did go to the doctor on a regular shedule visit and had her blood taken. She said everything came back fine. I asked what they checked for and she said the normal things. It has been about year since we had THE TALK. Which we have had a lot. She probably thinks I am over it or something. I am sure I have made a lot of mistakes a long the way also. I am not perfect but if she were to come to me and say I need this or you are not doing this I would definitly address it. She has done nothing to seem interested in our sex life. I am raMbling.


She has done nothing cause she has no drive and she does not understand what it means to you. Again I would get help in doing this from a book or counselor. I made lots of mistakes in getting my perspective and needs across.

As for the hormones google for a doctor in your area who works with bio-identical hormones. They do so much more testing for women not just the standard. The first time I was checked they said everything was normal but when I saw the labs I was at the very bottom of the acceptable range on all my hormones. Next time, I was at a doctor who specializes in this, they timed the testing according to my cycle and saw the whole picture. It has helped with my migraines, I never had low libido even though my progesterone levels were next to nothing. I wasn't always horny but it has always been a need!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What about marriage counseling? 





Sporto said:


> It depends but we both have made sacrifices.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> What about marriage counseling?


I suggested that once last year and she said ok, but she then changed her mind and said they will only tell us to have more sex amd that was that. She said to just force her if she says no, I would not do that and after a couple of months she said most men would be happy that there wife told them to just take them. When I did try she would still say no. I view this as blaim shifting. It is my fault that we are not having sex because she say to just make her I don't. She has not initiated sex in about 2 years. I do/did most of the initiating. Constant rejection messes with your head. The last nine months have been better for me mentally because I no longer think will she reject me tonight? Then when she does I start questioning myself and thinking what is wrong with me? I have not had that stress and don't seem to have the anxiety the next day after the rejection so in that regard things are better and the resentment is not always at the surface.

I am worried about how all this is going to play out. I am sure she thinks about it or maybe I am wrong.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

OP..

You and I are similar what we both want is our wives to want sex with us and what we both don't get is that.

Its a problem. Because we are men we feel a woman should be naturally attracted especially your own wife when that does not happen especially over time we say why bother...not worth it.

I have reached the point of not acceptance but of it being commonplace. 

It is not good to bring it up because you don't want anything forced or coerced. It is not good to threaten divorce for the same reasons. Ideally a light bulb goes off and your woman turns around and seeks sex.

I have no answer... other than be true to yourself. I think we are are worst enemy sometimes and continue our own situation.

The real answer is clear push, push push and make her see she is the issue then she may do SOMETHING. 

Absent of that divorce.

I am waiting until I have the strength to push push push...you get tired of the rejection but if you don't try you don't get.

Thats the truth.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sporto,
Do you know what a 180 is? 





Sporto said:


> I suggested that once last year and she said ok, but she then changed her mind and said they will only tell us to have more sex amd that was that. She said to just force her if she says no, I would not do that and after a couple of months she said most men would be happy that there wife told them to just take them. When I did try she would still say no. I view this as blaim shifting. It is my fault that we are not having sex because she say to just make her I don't. She has not initiated sex in about 2 years. I do/did most of the initiating. Constant rejection messes with your head. The last nine months have been better for me mentally because I no longer think will she reject me tonight? Then when she does I start questioning myself and thinking what is wrong with me? I have not had that stress and don't seem to have the anxiety the next day after the rejection so in that regard things are better and the resentment is not always at the surface.
> 
> I am worried about how all this is going to play out. I am sure she thinks about it or maybe I am wrong.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Sporto,
> Do you know what a 180 is?


Yes, I what I am doing is a 180 right now. I use to chase now I don"t. I became familiar with them a couple of years from Michelle Weiner davis stuff. Do you have a suggestion of a 180?


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Sporto,
I think it would be helpful if you would elaborate on your attempts to initiate, and her rejection, and your reaction to her rejection. Can you give us some details of a typical night: what time of day? where are you (what room)? what is going on in the rest of the house at this time? how do you approach her? what is she doing when you approach?what (exactly) do you say? what body language are you showing? what (exactly) does she say back to you? any visible body language from her? how do you react? what do you say back? what does she do after you retreat in failure?
etc.etc.etc.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

tommyr said:


> Sporto,
> I think it would be helpful if you would elaborate on your attempts to initiate, and her rejection, and your reaction to her rejection. Can you give us some details of a typical night: what time of day? where are you (what room)? what is going on in the rest of the house at this time? how do you approach her? what is she doing when you approach?what (exactly) do you say? what body language are you showing? what (exactly) does she say back to you? any visible body language from her? how do you react? what do you say back? what does she do after you retreat in failure?
> etc.etc.etc.


Alot of these rejections you can't explain to them. You have to let them see by your actions. After you been "de-valued" by your spouse due to your dependability and availabilty and allowing her/him to see you in weaker moments, you can "re-value" yourself in the world. 

You cannot beg/plead/explain to the spouse who is no longer seeing you in a sexual light. You can get their reaction by social proofing and get them to do right if there is any feeling left in them for you.

Many times a spouse even if they are rejecting you or not "interested" will all of a sudden become interested and want to claim you when you have other options.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What you are doing now is definitely not a 180.

You aren't initiating sex, but what you are doing isn't a 180. 

No offense intended. 




Sporto said:


> Yes, I what I am doing is a 180 right now. I use to chase now I don"t. I became familiar with them a couple of years from Michelle Weiner davis stuff. Do you have a suggestion of a 180?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> What you are doing now is definitely not a 180.
> 
> You aren't initiating sex, but what you are doing isn't a 180.
> 
> No offense intended.


A true 180, almost none of her actions would affect you because you remove your dependancy and response from her. You would flip things around and get into your own life.

Into your own life so hard, that many times you don't even notice your old interaction with her. It's not that your actively ignoring her, but you are into yourstuff so involved that it never comes up.

That's a true 180 and it's very hard especially if you live under the same roof.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And if your partner is a heavy duty LD he/she will actually welcome the lack of, ehem, interest...

The 180 does work well for milder cases in my view.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> And if your partner is a heavy duty LD he/she will actually welcome the lack of, ehem, interest...
> 
> The 180 does work well for milder cases in my view.


 Right. "Now I don't have to do that anymore" Hell a true LD might truly not even mind if you get that need met externally, and can't see why you won't do that versus bothering them when you know their answer to that. :lol:


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

A 180 Is to do The oposite of what you normally do. What you are currently doing Is not working. What you are trying to accomplish Is create anew and improved you a more attractive you. I have a good life that Is seperate from My marriage. While i get what you are saying about getting so deep into it that you dont even notice that Is hard given The fact that we live togethet sleep in The same bed and share The same kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Sporto said:


> A 180 Is to do The oposite of what you normally do. What you are currently doing Is not working. What you are trying to accomplish Is create anew and improved you a more attractive you. I have a good life that Is seperate from My marriage. While i get what you are saying about getting so deep into it that you dont even notice that Is hard given The fact that we live togethet sleep in The same bed and share The same kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I'm not going to worry about her and keep wasting my time. I might as well do something else"


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

treyvion said:


> Alot of these rejections you can't explain to them.


Sorry my question may have been unclear. I was NOT asking/suggesting that you explain it *to them* (your spouse).
I was asking you to post *here* the details of a typical initiation/rejection cycle. 
I thought this detail, for us here to read, may provide some productive insight to the relationship that may not be apparent to you, standing there sexually frustrated, in the "heat of the moment".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well good luck. I don't think you quite understand the dynamic very well, and for your own reasons you have chosen to give very short answers to rather specific questions. 

Hope it works out for you. 


QUOTE=Sporto;9217602]A 180 Is to do The oposite of what you normally do. What you are currently doing Is not working. What you are trying to accomplish Is create anew and improved you a more attractive you. I have a good life that Is seperate from My marriage. While i get what you are saying about getting so deep into it that you dont even notice that Is hard given The fact that we live togethet sleep in The same bed and share The same kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Well good luck. I don't think you quite understand the dynamic very well, and for your own reasons you have chosen to give very short answers to rather specific questions.
> 
> Hope it works out for you.
> I am not trying to be short on My phone very difficult to type. I was trying to say Is i dont want to ignore her but i want to make a very informed attempt. what are you suggesting i do?
> ...


[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
Some of The 180 i have done. Maybe i am not understanding 180 so your suggestion are welcome and appreciated. I have lost weight35 lbs. I have gone from makinf 65k a year to 90k a year. I have quit smoking three years now. I am more involved in My kids life. I coach My son and daughters softball team and baseball team. i do more around The house she used to cmplain. I know we dont spend enougj time together but when i use to try thete was always some excuse . . .she Is always to tired or not in The mood. I am sure at.the beginning i was responsible for a lot of her lack of desire and i have tried to change that. I have asked het what can i do . It The it Is not uou its me. i am willing to take The blaim for My share of The decline.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You took you part, that's why you made so many changes. But you are still asking her what you need to do. I don't think there is anything you can do if she says its her. Moreover, she is not inclined to make changes the way you have. 

Tell her what you need her to do. Tell her that you would like her to show as much commitment to you and the family as you have done. If she is still cool, what leverage do you have? 

You cool off too. Be as involved with her as she is with you. Give your fair share to the household and you children but no mare. Be more independent. 

Don't ask her what she wants you to do. Show independence. Have plans and pursue an interest that has nothing to do with the family. This seems like you are going in the wrong direction right? 

But you are increasing the distance between you and giving her space to come to you. You may feel anxious about pulling back but do it anyway. If she does not come to you then you know that she is not worried about losing you.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sporto,



In the last few months, I have been -- most of the time -- thinking the best for me, my kids, and maybe my wife is for me to file and never let myself reconsider.



In the last few weeks, I have told her a few times that I an very close to calling it quits, and once mentioned I had contacted a lawyer. (All true )



I sometimes have wondered if she has been in a bit if a fog about my willingness to stay no matter what. It is too soon to say, but I have a bit of new hope she is seeing I have a limit here and will eventually walk away if need be.



Also a few weeks ago, we took the five love languages test online. Her reading the descriptions of her love languages -- and feeling that they made sense -- opened her eyes a bit, I think, to my claim that her not touching me feels very much like her not loving me.



I'm not holding my breath at this point in my situation, but it may be worth considering for yours.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

What this all boils down to is choice.

You chose to be married was sex part of that contract?
Some say yes according to vows on the other hand if you decide to not have sex is that OK..that is the question most of us deal with.


One would think your spouse would want to provide sex and experience it (in absence of a medical reason)... but in reality all people are different.

I hate Brussel sprouts but occasionally eat them very occasionally why ... I don't really enjoy them and there are other foods. My wife cooks them and loves them i could go all my life not eating one ever again but sometimes I try it...yep still don't care for it.

How is that different from sex?

Should I not enjoy what my wife cooks all the time or do I have a right to not eat brussel sprouts. Sex is fun if you really are into your partner but at some point (for many) is becomes boring, hurts or a chore for some and that person may get joy in other forms in life.

Sure sex is NEEDED to procreate that is the ONLY difference between sex and vegetable choices at the most basic level. 

It all comes down to free will...and in the end after you communicate the other and things don't change then you have a choice. 

Vegetables provide nutrients also beneficial but there are options.... same with sex.
Neither is absolutely essential..you will not die from lack of sex or lack of vegetables directly

Just like at a job...continue, make it better somehow, or leave.

I think everyone in any relationship needs a reality check.... you don't force people (as in whining about sex or threatening)and get what you want... you have to make them want to like it if they can and they need that light bulb to go off..."sex with my spouse improves MY life." SEx is a* DECISION* and "I want it."

With sex did your wife ever really LIKE it? Cannot go by what they say only what they do. She knows the risk of NOT PROVIDING sex and has made it her decision. You can make your own decisions too.

Sometimes there are no good answers to life's dilemmas and expectations change.

The end. Life goes on.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

From everything you've written, I don't think the change in her can come from outside. You have made a lot of significant changes. If it was something about your appearance or behavior, it should have improved by now. If she doesn't take a very active role in fixing the problem, it will not get fixed.

I think a lot of men would be happy with a wife who said "take me whenever you want". Those men like that kind of power dynamic in sex and would be fine with it. But if you're the type who wants to feel desired and that your partner wants to be involved, then that won't be satisfying.

Personally, I think you should seriously start considering your exit strategy. Be up front with her and say that you cannot live like this and something has to change. Either she starts taking an active role in improving the situation or you need to start planning the divorce. The key will be to not make it sound like a threat "Have sex with me or we divorce!" Rather, let her know that you can't find happiness in this situation. She needs to decide if she loves you enough to make you happy, even if that means letting you go.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Sporto said:


> She changed right after we had kids.


 My husband did the same thing


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Either you have to learn to live with no sex or you have to make your intentions clear and stick with it. 

On another note, I am in the same boat. It has been 8 months since the last time and years since the last truly satisfying session. Some days, I obsess about it but more often than not, I could not care less.


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

After 1-2 years of no sex, it becomes awkward even to try again



treyvion said:


> A year should be the top end limit. If you go 30 to 45 days that should be the start of serious problems. This multi-year crap is for people who don't really care about the quality of their life.
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats. I'm not a fan of divorce, but I'm less of a fan of people being neglected of simple needs in a marriage. It makes the institution a farce and makes you look like a coward to your children!


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## Search_for_Happiness (Jun 23, 2014)

I know in my own situation it is difficult to understand the reason my spouse is not interested in sex. We have been intimate 3 times in 2 years and I am beyond fed-up. I asked why the lack of desire. Her statement was that she knew I would never marry her if she didn't frequently have sex with me so put up some false front. Now we co-exist like roommates. 
She is currently not working so she stays up real late knowing I must get sleep for work.

This is my second marriage; first I was too young to know what I was doing. The second is a restart and want to make it work. 
No sex makes me very frustrated and ornery.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Search_for_Happiness said:


> I know in my own situation it is difficult to understand the reason my spouse is not interested in sex. We have been intimate 3 times in 2 years and I am beyond fed-up. I asked why the lack of desire. Her statement was that she knew I would never marry her if she didn't frequently have sex with me so put up some false front. Now we co-exist like roommates.
> She is currently not working so she stays up real late knowing I must get sleep for work.
> 
> This is my second marriage; first I was too young to know what I was doing. The second is a restart and want to make it work.
> No sex makes me very frustrated and ornery.


Don't worry. Over time your sex drive and feelings of masculinity will subside as your sex drive matches hers.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Search_for_Happiness said:


> I know in my own situation it is difficult to understand the reason my spouse is not interested in sex. We have been intimate 3 times in 2 years and I am beyond fed-up. I asked why the lack of desire. Her statement was that she knew I would never marry her if she didn't frequently have sex with me so put up some false front. Now we co-exist like roommates.
> She is currently not working so she stays up real late knowing I must get sleep for work.
> 
> This is my second marriage; first I was too young to know what I was doing. The second is a restart and want to make it work.
> No sex makes me very frustrated and ornery.


I can't believe she admitted that to you. I'd divorce her but and then she will have to get a job to support herself and you can find a women who wants to be a wife to you not just a roommate where you pay off of the bills and get nothing in return.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Yep, coming up on a year next Wednesday. Unfortunately all her immediate relatives and families will be here from out of state. Her mom is already here. That devil on my shoulder was talking me into being passive aggressive and making a big deal about "celebrating" our 1-year celibacy anniversary. Even with relatives here, I'm thinking about how to express my unbelievable disappointment to her without ruining their visit. I know I should be above that but ... dammit!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

JSGW, how about just saying it? You don't have to be passive-aggressive. Just share your feelings, clearly and directly.

Even if it stings a little at first, she will undoubtedly reflect on what you tell her. It might prick her conscience.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Yep, coming up on a year next Wednesday. Unfortunately all her immediate relatives and families will be here from out of state. Her mom is already here. That devil on my shoulder was talking me into being passive aggressive and making a big deal about "celebrating" our 1-year celibacy anniversary. Even with relatives here, I'm thinking about how to express my unbelievable disappointment to her without ruining their visit. I know I should be above that but ... dammit!



The one year anniversary is a perfect time to serve her divorce papers. Or, if you don't want to do that, just take off for the weekend. Go camping or go to Vegas for the weekend. Have fun not including her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> JSGW, how about just saying it? You don't have to be passive-aggressive. Just share your feelings, clearly and directly.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if it stings a little at first, she will undoubtedly reflect on what you tell her. It might prick her conscience.



JSGW please correct me if this is not the case but I think your wife, like mine, and many other stage IV LD's are are so far into the "other side" that you might as well be talking ice hockey or curling with her.

To them sex is like driving a stick shift. Yea, used to be a lot of fun but now it's more work and more maintenance. With an automatic, put it into Low Drive and you're set.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> JSGW please correct me if this is not the case but I think your wife, like mine, and many other *stage IV LD's *are are so far into the "other side" that you might as well be talking ice hockey or curling with her.
> 
> To them sex is like driving a stick shift. Yea, used to be a lot of fun but now it's more work and more maintenance. With an automatic, put it into Low Drive and you're set.


You are funny, john. Stage IV LD's . . .


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The one year anniversary is a perfect time to serve her divorce papers. Or, if you don't want to do that, just take off for the weekend. Go camping or go to Vegas for the weekend. Have fun not including her.


I just about blew my lid tonight. 

A few years ago I separated from her. There were many reasons but the one that really made the decision clear was the job she was doing homeschooling our daughters. In other words, she wasn't. They either sat around in their pajamas all day or they went out socializing. I could go on and on about this but let's just say I had enough and I went from trying to convince her to put the kids in school to demanding it. She refused. I separated. The kids were put in school. We reconciled.

Cut to now. While her mom is here, my wife has made remarks about taking the kids out of school. Now, my wife just went back to school to become a teacher and has been working. She has her resume out and is trying to get a classroom for next year. Steam was coming out of my ears. Adding to this, these last few weeks she and her mom have been pressuring me to quit my job and move to Plano, Texas where most of her family lives. My wife is certified to teach in Indiana and has never had a classroom ... how is she going to get a job in Plano as a teacher in a school system that is among the best in the country. So, I'm going to quit my job, sell my house, leave my friends and move ... so what ... I can support her and not get laid in another part of the country?

Last Tuesday I was in a car wreck and my car was totaled. I was headed to my daughter's softball game and a car pulled out of a parking lot, she was looking in the other direction, saw an opening and floored it just as I was coming. T-boned. Nothing I could do. Side airbag went off, glass went everywhere. The entire passenger side of my car destroyed. I was fortunate ... on any other day, my daughter is with me going to the game and on that day, my wife had my daughter and was going to meet us at the game. She would have been right where the car was hit and without a doubt she would have been seriously hurt.
Very lucky.

So, today I was shopping for a new car. I posted a comment on fb with a couple of pics, one of a beautiful, almost new Mustang in perfect condition and one of a Passat wagon along with the comment ... "what I want vs what I need. The battle rages." Of course my siblings chime in about going through a mid-life crisis, trying to convince me to get the Mustang. I responded that I refuse to concede mid-life yet and that this is more of a ... my car was totaled and I need a new car crisis. So, I'm reading this to my wife and she says ...

"I already let you have one mid-life crisis (referring to the separation), you aren't allowed to have another."

I just had to leave the room ... my kids and MIL were sitting right here and the F-bombs I was about to unleash would have caused permanent damage, lol. Seriously though, it is difficult to get me there but I know when I'm about to lose self-control and leaving the room was the right choice. Things would have been said that my daughters can't hear and I would have regretted.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You did the right thing, JSGW. You knew you could not control yourself, so you removed yourself.

So glad your daughter was not with you during the car accident!

Did you mention once that you suggested MC to your wife, and she refused?

Do you think she would welcome a divorce now, so that she could move to TX?

These last two might make now a good time for you to sit down with her and talk about the possibility of divorce, if you truly cannot work out your differences.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Walking away without standing up for yourself was a mistake and emblematic of the mistakes you repeatedly make. And seriously, if you give up your life to give a sexless wife a new place in Texas, well that would be a truly pathetic move. 

I have no idea how you are still there. With the interaction today I'd be in a hotel tonight.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Do you feel comfortable going back now, or tomorrow morning, and talking to your wife, JSGW? 

To keep from building up resentment, we need to express what is in our heart to our spouse. It sounds like both of you have resentment built up.

Please consider sharing your feelings with her. Or better yet, ask her to explain her feelings about your separating from her a few years ago. 

If you can listen to her feelings without defending yourself, or giving information, just truly listen and seek to understand, I think she will listen to you give your side of things, too.

You need communication to solve your marital problems, or else you are going to end up divorced.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

jld said:


> You did the right thing, JSGW. You knew you could not control yourself, so you removed yourself.
> 
> So glad your daughter was not with you during the car accident!
> 
> ...


No, that wasn't me. We did do MC for a while. I don't think it helped our marriage directly but it did help me.

No, I think right now, she doesn't believe we will nor does she want a divorce. She isn't the one that ever considered divorce. She is making plans for the future and they clearly include me. I keep on thinking ... STOP! ... you do realize that (because you have no interest in having an intimate relationship with me) we will not be together!

Besides, there is no way in the case of a divorce that I would allow her to move to TX unless I was also going to move there. I've already consulted a lawyer on that point. My girls are 9 and 12 ... they aren't going anywhere unless I am with them. She did threaten that though during our separation ... moving to Texas unless we got back together. I discovered during our separation just how manipulative she is capable of being.

Nope ... she is perfectly fine with letting me spend the rest of my life alone and celibate in my marriage. She does not care. It isn't important to her.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I keep on thinking ... STOP! ... you do realize that (because you have no interest in having an intimate relationship with me) we will not be together!



You have to say it not just think it. If you just think it, then you're part of the problem.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Walking away without standing up for yourself was a mistake and emblematic of the mistakes you repeatedly make. And seriously, if you give up your life to give a sexless wife a new place in Texas, well that would be a truly pathetic move.
> 
> I have no idea how you are still there. With the interaction today I'd be in a hotel tonight.


Well, I didn't exactly walk away without saying anything. I probably pierced a hole through her skull with my laser like stare when I told her that was no mid-life crisis, there was a reason and I would do it all over again. That is when I left. 

Most people think I'm a nice guy ... but both my MIL and wife admit that I am very intimidating at times and my MIL thinks sometimes I am downright scary. I have no doubt that there was no room for misinterpreting how serious I was. I left because it was all I could stand before I said something completely inappropriate in front of my kids.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

JSGW, please consider going back to counseling. MC would be best, but even IC would be good.

I understand your girls are very important to you, and some men really are able to put their kids first, at least until they are 18, and then divorce. But I think the IC or MC would help you see your options clearly, and help you deal with your emotional issues.

I would hope I would stay in a marriage for my kids, even though I know many here disagree with that. I would need support, though. I think you need it, too.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You have to say it not just think it. If you just think it, then you're part of the problem.


Thank you but you aren't telling me anything new.

No, I've communicated my position to my wife time and again. I have no fear of telling her what I think. She has her head in the sand. It is just like every other difficult or challenging thing in her life, she pretends it doesn't exist. She won't communicate about it. 

I am the reason I am not getting laid ... because I have stayed in this marriage. I know that. I don't feel sorry for myself because it is my choice and while I like to use TAM as an outlet, I really don't want or think anybody else should feel sorry for me either. I've said it before, I had some very clear objectives before divorcing. One of them has not been met and I've been willing to wait it out.

I don't know that the heck happened ... it's like she's lost her mind over the last two weeks. The whole thing is backfiring on me. It is the most convincing thing so far to tell me just to end it right now no matter what the consequences.

I really don't know how I'm going to get through all her relatives (including my nieces and nephews) being here without completely losing it.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

jld said:


> JSGW, please consider going back to counseling. MC would be best, but even IC would be good.
> 
> I understand your girls are very important to you, and some men really are able to put their kids first, at least until they are 18, and then divorce. But I think the IC or MC would help you see your options clearly, and help you deal with your emotional issues.
> 
> I would hope I would stay in a marriage for my kids, even though I know many here disagree with that. I would need support, though. I think you need it, too.


Well ... I guess I'm not sure what you mean about "emotional issues", lol. I think anybody would be a little emotional about their spouse not having sex with them for a year ... to add to the other sexless years. I mean ... come on now, I'm almost 47 and I don't need all my fingers to count how many times my wife and I have had sex since I turned 40. I am angry and frustrated about that but otherwise I probably feel more positive about things in general than I have in a long time ... so it is kind of surprising to learn that I have emotional issues


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I guess I meant the resentment, frustration, etc. I am sure those are challenging.

You seem to feel the MC helped last time. How about asking Mrs. JSGW to go back with you?

ETA: Imho, when you succeed in meeting a woman's emotional needs, you own her. She really cannot resist you. 

If you could get your wife to feel safe enough to tell you her emotional needs, and you could start meeting them, you could probably get her to start having sex again.

Again, jmho.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

jld said:


> I guess I meant the resentment, frustration, etc. I am sure those are challenging.
> 
> You seem to feel the MC helped last time. How about asking Mrs. JSGW to go back with you?
> 
> ...


The way that MC helped me was that I came to understand my contribution to the problems in our marriage. I went into separation with a long, ironclad list of reasons convinced that it was entirely her own doing. I was wrong and I came to realize my own shortcomings. I don't think it helped her at all. To this day I believe she thinks I was just "lost" and does not understand ... or is unwilling to accept ... the reasons I separated.

Going back to MC is tough. In order to go through that, I have to believe that we will make progress that results in her being able to communicate with me and building some level of intimacy back in our lives. I am not convinced of that.

During our marriage counseling, our MC spent a lot of time delving into what appears to be a mismatch between what my wife says and how she acts vs what she does. There is a disconnect. It is a disconnect that has always existed, even with me. She appears completely unable or unwilling to "bare her soul" ... to anybody. She is that way with her friends and especially her family. I will see it this next week when the rest of her family arrives. She will shut down and be the quietest person in the room if there is the slightest hint of judgement coming her way from any of them. She will get a look on her face and I will know exactly what to expect.

It has always affected our sex life. Our sex life has always been poor ... now it is just gone. It isn't about restoring our sex life or making her want to have sex with me on a regular basis again ... it is something we never had. Now, she is a morbidly obese woman weighing well over 300lbs ... and I am a reasonably good looking, fit, athletic guy. I am sure that you are right that it is all about connecting with her emotionally. She has said that I don't do the things that make her want to have sex with me and it isn't that important to her to have sex. I just don't believe I'm the guy who can do that for her. Possibly with someone else but after 21 years of marriage (24 together) and years of IC for her, I don't think it's going to happen for us. It is something I used to torture myself over ... how do I make this person want me, how can I make her feel special ... or worse, what did I do/say wrong today. I'm just over that. I am no longer willing to accept responsibility for that. When it comes down to it, I don't care WHY we aren't having sex ... we aren't, we never have really and probably never will.

EDIT: I have to say too that I don't think it is necessarily unhealthy to have some anger and resentment under the circumstances ... it means that I'm alive. If I didn't care ... that is when I'd be marching straight down to the counselor (after checking my pulse  )


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

tell the MIL to leave. she is toxic. And home schooling requires the school district to approve a plan....so you can throw a monkey wrench into that by saying the last time they home schooled she was a lousy teacher, or at least threaten to do that to her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> The way that MC helped me was that I came to understand my contribution to the problems in our marriage. I went into separation with a long, ironclad list of reasons convinced that it was entirely her own doing. I was wrong and I came to realize my own shortcomings. I don't think it helped her at all. To this day I believe she thinks I was just "lost" and does not understand ... or is unwilling to accept ... the reasons I separated.It sounds like it helped you, though. If you move on from this marriage, that will surely aid you in the next one. And kudos to you for being open and honest and willing to take responsibility for your shortcomings. I don't always hear that on these boards; be proud that you are mature enough to do that!
> 
> Going back to MC is tough. In order to go through that, I have to believe that we will make progress that results in her being able to communicate with me and building some level of intimacy back in our lives. I am not convinced of that. It does sound like she has a block . . .
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

murphy5 said:


> tell the MIL to leave. she is toxic. And home schooling requires the school district to approve a plan.... Not in every state. Not in ours. As a homeschooler myself, I can tell you my little ones just play. They do not really do schoolwork until 10 or 12. And the older ones are doing very well. There really is no harm in just letting them being little when they are little. so you can throw a monkey wrench into that by saying the last time they home schooled she was a lousy teacher, It is not as much about teaching, as just letting them grow and learn at their own pace . . . each child is unique . . . or at least threaten to do that to her. These are his children, too, murphy -- How does it help him or them to try to intimidate their mother?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JSG,

I have a suggestion, an observation and a few questions. 

The suggestion is to use the phrase: I thought you were raised to know better than that, followed by a questioning look at your MIL. 

And after a pause: looking at your MIL: it's never to late.

-------
You definitely did the right thing leaving the room. If you are at the point where you are going to shout or use profanity, far better to go cool off. 
-------

Why does your wife believe she is in a strong enough position in the marriage to ask you to make a move that is solely for the benefit of her and the kids? 

Your wife doesn't have sex with you. Why would you engage her in a conversation about choosing between two cars, when one of those cars has a much higher sex appeal than the other? 

You threw it out there to gauge her reaction. And she stomped on you. That's kind of her thing right - she gets off on that. It's a dominance thing. Look on the bright side, at least she doesn't bite you - biting was a popular form of asserting dominance in our distant ancestors. 

--------
Do you have a financial plan such that, when you eventually part ways - after another decade of forced celibacy - you won't be broke. 


QUOTE=JustSomeGuyWho;9315458]Well, I didn't exactly walk away without saying anything. I probably pierced a hole through her skull with my laser like stare when I told her that was no mid-life crisis, there was a reason and I would do it all over again. That is when I left. 

Most people think I'm a nice guy ... but both my MIL and wife admit that I am very intimidating at times and my MIL thinks sometimes I am downright scary. I have no doubt that there was no room for misinterpreting how serious I was. I left because it was all I could stand before I said something completely inappropriate in front of my kids.[/QUOTE]


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Actually I would look hard to see the divorce laws of Texas versus Indiana and see where it makes more sense to file from your standpoint...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> Actually I would look hard to see the divorce laws of Texas versus Indiana and see where it makes more sense to file from your standpoint...



I suspect Texas is much better. And I agree with your post. I would do the same. But jsgw is never leaving her. He's proved that multiple times.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> john117 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I would look hard to see the divorce laws of Texas versus Indiana and see where it makes more sense to file from your standpoint...
> ...


I am really curious about that. I mean, I separated from her for 13 months and spent an ungodly amount of money to do it. How have I proven I will never leave her? Hit me with a 2x4 because I don't understand it.


Anyway, in Indiana the short story is that it is a non-alimony state with a few exceptions. The one that affects me is she hasn't worked full-time for at least 10 years. While it is a non-alimony state, custody is typically given to the mother except in extreme cases. For a more fair custody deal, I will have to get her to agree to it ahead of time. I have not spoken to an attorney about Texas yet. My attorney has only said that to keep her from taking my kids to Texas, I will have to get a court order. Once they are in Texas, Indiana will not do anything and I will have to take it up with Texas.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I am really curious about that. I mean, I separated from her for 13 months and spent an ungodly amount of money to do it. How have I proven I will never leave her? Hit me with a 2x4 because I don't understand it.
> 
> 
> Anyway, in Indiana the short story is that it is a non-alimony state with a few exceptions. The one that affects me is she hasn't worked full-time for at least 10 years. While it is a non-alimony state, custody is typically given to the mother except in extreme cases. For a more fair custody deal, I will have to get her to agree to it ahead of time. I have not spoken to an attorney about Texas yet. My attorney has only said that to keep her from taking my kids to Texas, I will have to get a court order. Once they are in Texas, Indiana will not do anything and I will have to take it up with Texas.
> ...


Good job!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I just googled comparison of divorce laws here and there and it did not look to me that Texas would be a better place to file... 

http://divorce-laws.findthebest.com/compare/15-44/Indiana-vs-Texas


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

john117 said:


> I just googled comparison of divorce laws here and there and it did not look to me that Texas would be a better place to file...
> 
> http://divorce-laws.findthebest.com/compare/15-44/Indiana-vs-Texas


Wow, thanks for that John. Texas is definitely not a better place to divorce than Indiana. Knowing her I will have to file before telling her I'm filing. I can't get a court order to prevent her from taking my girls there without having already filed for divorce or legal separation. I don't have a lot of faith in getting a better custody arrangement. She is quite capable of moving immediately if she is certain I will file and it will piss her off to no end if I simply drop it on her with a court order preventing her from moving. Damned if you do ....

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The key is to find a good divorce lawyer who knows the local courts and can guess what is possible and likely with individual judges and so on. 

Not someone who will drag it out in order to amass billable hours. 

Also you could get her to start working full time and let her work for a year or two until she's in her 'comfort zone' and you get out of the ten year clock. Be her cheerleader for finding a teaching job and let her think it's all for her best!!!!

If she finds something and turns it down or does not find work despite demand for her skills then you gotta wonder why...


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

john117 said:


> The key is to find a good divorce lawyer who knows the local courts and can guess what is possible and likely with individual judges and so on.
> 
> Not someone who will drag it out in order to amass billable hours.
> 
> ...


You and I think alike. 

When we separated, I encouraged her to find full-time work. Since she had been out of the job market for so long, she quickly found her degree and previous job experience to be pretty useless. She took a part-time manual labor job.

When we reconciled, she decided that she wanted to go back to school, an accelerated program to become a teacher. Having already consulted a lawyer at this point, I knew what the alimony requirements were so I thought ... perfect! 

1) If she is established in a full-time career job then I will likely not have to pay alimony per my attorney.

2) One of her biggest needs is security. If she feels like she can make it on her own then she will be a lot more amenable to a divorce and would likely be more cooperative on the terms of a divorce.

3) If she is employed full-time in Indiana in a career-type job, she is not likely to drop it all to move to Texas, even in the case of a divorce.

4) It is a program widely recognized in Indiana and it is an Indiana certification so her chances of landing a teaching job in Indiana are far better than Texas.

5) I did want to make one last effort to save the marriage. If anything, my daughters deserved that. This is roughly around the same time that I found TAM. I estimated when she would finish the program with enough time to find a job and become somewhat established in it. I set that as a personal deadline for either having made substantial progress in our relationship or filing for divorce. I sat down with her and told her that two things needed substantial improvement for our marriage to have a chance, 1) communication, and 2) intimacy. I will say that communication has improved BUT intimacy has not and more importantly, communication about intimacy has not. Can't fix it if you aren't willing or able to talk about it.

6) If we did save the marriage, we would have a second income.

7) She is still important to me. Whether we divorced or not, I want her to have a fulfilling life doing what makes her happy. As a SAHM, she was drifting and unfocused. Some people can do that well ... she did not. I fully supported her choice to be a SAHM but privately I felt that she is better when she has some focus in her life outside of raising our daughters.

Seemed like a good investment. So, we took out a student loan that I am now paying off and I supported her through the program. It took a semester longer than I anticipated so that in itself endangered my "deadline" but I still held out hope. She was certified late last fall and started working substitute positions and submitted her resume for full-time work. Being mid school year, this was not the best timing. When we started this, I had hoped she would have already had a full-time position and that by the time spring rolled around she would be somewhat established. As it was, she could only get substitute work, which is not full-time and pays barely more than minimum wage. She did catch a break and took over a classroom for a teacher that went on leave. Per union rules, she went under contract for that but it still isn't full-time employment. We thought this might be her break she needed to get a full-time job, and it still might be based on the recommendations she's received but as it turns out, the district is realigning and the school she worked at is losing positions while others in the area are gaining positions ... so everything is up in the air. I will not say that she has done everything she can do to find a full-time position but she is certainly serious about finding a job in the immediate area and that is mostly so she can still have some availability for our daughters. My personal deadline has passed. Of course, it was a deadline based on assumptions that turned out to be incorrect. 

I do have an attorney that I've met with privately a couple of times and once in a formal consultation. She is the wife of one of the partners at the office and offers her services at a discount to people in the company. She has handled many divorces at the office and is recommended. It helps that I have access to her so I can ping her for things without having to pay her every time. 

So ... in the meantime, I wait ....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The question is, so she aware of all this? Ie the reasons why you want her to work etc? Can she figure it out?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

john117 said:


> The question is, so she aware of all this? Ie the reasons why you want her to work etc? Can she figure it out?


I don't think so. I haven't told her for one. I communicated early on that I wanted to fix our marriage and there were two things I needed her commitment to work on so I don't think she thinks I'm just sitting here waiting around. She clearly is including me in future plans so I don't think she has any expectation that we will divorce. That said ... I have yet to figure out how she thinks so .... 

No, I have no reason to believe she is delaying getting a job. From what I can see she is doing what she can to find a job and it is just following its natural course. It makes complete sense to me given our crazy schedule that she wants a job in the immediate area so that she is available for the girls and I would expect her to feel that way if we were crazy in love and getting it on every night, lol. If she was desperate then yes, she would be searching far and wide and not limiting herself but she's not desperate because I'm here to support her and she doesn't expect that to change. Frankly, it won't change even if I filed today because then I would be paying alimony and she won't have to work.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> .
> 
> .
> 
> ...





Just yesterday I happened to discuss with my therapist anger and mmy discomfort with it.



What I came to learn/relearn as a result:



Anger is your friend.

It's message is important to you.

Sure, don't let it make you do stupid things (so getting up and leaving the room is good), but don't swallow it longer term.



btw, glad your car protected you, and daughter was not there to be hurt.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There are plenty of sedate-looking but middle age crisis inspiring vehicles out there. It doesn't have to be a Shelby 

Perhaps a Taurus SHO if Ford still makes those, or a Charger R/T type 4 door. If you up the ante a bit there are some awe inspiring vehicles that any mom would cheerfully ignore


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

jld said:


> Not in every state. Not in ours. As a homeschooler myself, I can tell you my little ones just play. They do not really do schoolwork until 10 or 12. And the older ones are doing very well. There really is no harm in just letting them being little when they are little.
> 
> It is not as much about teaching, as just letting them grow and learn at their own pace . . . each child is unique . . .
> 
> These are his children, too, murphy -- How does it help him or them to try to intimidate their mother?


Our state does not require a submitted plan. It only requires "proof" that a certain number of hours were met but even that isn't strictly enforced.

My problem wasn't with homeschooling. We know a lot of families that home school, do it successfully and raise well-adjusted kids. This was a judgement call on my part. There were many reasons I did not think it was going well (a whole topic in itself) and I am convinced after two years of being in regular school that it was the right decision. My girls have blossomed in ways that would not have been possible in the direction they were headed and none of my wife's fears about the potential negative influences of a non-christian based education have come to fruition. 

I don't believe that attempting to intimidate my wife to get what I want is the right thing to do. I also think it may backfire on me. If this was a political situation I would say this needs a "diplomatic solution" rather than a military one. However, all options are on the table


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I just about blew my lid tonight.
> 
> .
> .
> ...



By now, maybe you have put this behind you. Read on only if you are interested in further thoughts on this matter.

I should confess I felt really frustrated when I read your post. I think I now understand why...it hits close to home.

Please bear in mind what you are about to read may have more to do with various events in my life these (too) many years. Call me Mr. Projection! Also, please understand this is just food for thought. If it doesn't ring true to you, please feel free to see me as a cynic. (Same goes for if it does ring true...I just might be a cynic by now. )

So, here goes.

Most troubling is she maligned you in front of your children. That is what felt familiar when I read your post, and thing IMHO you should directly and unequivocally address with her in front of your MIL, and possibly (but age-appropriately and gently) with your kids.

That she did this in front of your MIL is troubling too. Here's why:

1) From your posts, I suppose there is a risk that your MIL is not a friend to your marriage. Even if she is not hostile to your marriage, does she have strong desires for your wife and kids to move close by?

2) From your posts, I also have a feeling your wife evades reality of how broken your marriage is, and of what her contribution to its breakage is. (Again, maybe I'm wrong...no offense intended). Is it likely your wife limits her discussions with her mother about YOU and your marriage to the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or, is it likely she blames you (and, uhm, say, your MLC) for the troubles...?

3) "1" or "2" alone are troublesome enough. Together, yikes!

In my life, I've come to believe it is important for me to address such maligning and disrespect directly and unequivocally with my wife, and gently but openly with my kids. Addressing it with my wife is important, because otherwise it feeds on itself and before long reality is distorted and that new "normal" sucks.

Just how to address it with kids is not always clear, and I haven't done it 100% of the time. (Just learning as I go!) But, I'll be damned if I let my kids grow up seeing me through their mother's eyes. It's not good for them, let alone me. 

Looking back, I suppose what I've done is ask them if they are feeling stress or worried about _________ (<- insert some argument, etc. here). If so, I point out that "I'm sorry you heard that, and that sometimes mom and dad's don't get along about certain things, and they have work it out...Kids are never to blame for such disagreements, but they are part of life... No matter what, Mom and Dad love you both and don't want you to have to worry about these sorts of things... We are not perfect, none of us are, but we love you very much and that will never change." I must say it is getting easier to broach these subjects with them as they get older (14.5 and 10 years old), and it is comforting to sense no one is pulling the wool over their eyes. (They recognize bad behavior wherever it comes from. Still, IMHO, it is good to let them express worry and acknowledge that yes something unfortunate and sad or stressful transpired, rather than pretend it didn't happen.)

Though you gave your wife a look, and you intended it to communicate something in particular, I think a person eager to maintain his or her own distorted view of reality and evade truths about him- or herself would have enough wiggle room to slip away none the wiser. If it were me, I'd be tempted to bring up the issue in front of the wife and MIL perhaps like this: "You know, it really bothers me that the other night you took a silly joke about "Mid Life Crises" and car selection and tried to establish as fact in front of your mother and my children that I have had some sort of mid-life crisis. What was that about? Surely you were not referring to our separation -- I thought we both understood there were things very broken in our marriage -- each of us responsible for parts of them -- and I don't see how that 
has anything to do with a so-called Mid-life Crisis. Is that what you were wanting your mother and MY children to believe? I'm confused." 

Do you think your children noticed the intensity of the emotion rising in you as your left the room? Was there further discussion in front of your kids after you left? Do they understand what a MLC, in popular usage, is?


Btw, I happen to be reading a book about the so-called mid-life crisis. I enjoy the trope known as the MidLifeCrisisCar as much as the next guy/gal (I do!), but this book addresses something, I must say, more serious and timely in my life...


From the Preface of The Middle Passage, by James Hollis:

_Many of us treat life as it were a novel. We pass from page to page passively, assuming the author will tell us on the last page what it was all about. As Hemingway once said, if the hero does not die, the author just did not finish the story. So, on the last page we die, with or without illumination. The invitation of the Middle Passage is to become conscious, accept responsibility for the rest of the pages and risk the largeness of life to which we are summoned.

Wherever the reader may be in his or her life, the summons to us is the same as Tennyson's Ulysses:
*The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep

Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,

'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.*​_​


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> By now, maybe you have put this behind you. Read on only if you are interested in further thoughts on this matter.
> 
> I should confess I felt really frustrated when I read your post. I think I now understand why...it hits close to home.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for the response Sky. Been meaning to answer you but haven't had time for TAM the last few days with the in-laws. I'll respond shortly.

Just a note but today is the one-year anniversary of celibacy. I did "congratulate" my wife late last night after everybody had gone to bed, lol. Of course, she said nothing per usual. I told her that after the in-laws leave we will have a serious discussion about the state of our marriage. All I got was a hesitant ..."ok". I couched my words very carefully because I didn't want this to be a discussion among all of them while they are here and I am at work. Knowing them, that would turn into a nightmare ... especially with the pressure they are all putting on me to move to Texas. My wife is a very private person so the way I worded it, I don't think she will discuss it with them. 

I can't feel too bad. Maybe something is in the air but today I was having a casual conversation with somebody and she asked me "would it be too forward if I asked if you have a girlfriend ... or your married?" I responded, "no, that isn't too forward, you just made my day. Yes, I am married." Then probably inappropriate on my part but I added ... "but ask me in six months and I hope to have a different answer for you."  That certainly changed my mood today.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I feel like we should have at least gotten you a card!



Did the owners of TAM send you your one year Certificate of Completions diploma signed by the resident Master Beta, suitable for protective framing?



I have heard at three years they give you a nice personalized pen and pencil set, in case you want to poke your eyes out.



At five, they give a broken watch, because from then on, time stands still. Genuine counterfit broken Rolex.





At least I haven't lost my sense of humor. (I never had one.)





Seriously, that's nice someone was interested. Good to know there are real people out there, interested in engaging at some level. 



I suppose if my wife and I make it that far, she won't be the slightest bit aware. Even I have lost track of the date.



Enjoy the long weekend!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh, Piece. So funny, and yet so sad.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

jld said:


> Oh, Piece. So funny, and yet so sad.



“You can have two emotions at the same time. One makes the other even more acute, then cures it”.

_-- Alex, quoting George, in Aspects of Love​_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Ha! That just cracked me up, Sky!

So far so good on the weekend. Nice 18 holes of golf this morning. Perfect weather. Have to do some chores and then off to the Indians game and fireworks. Have another 18 setup for tomorrow morning in Carmel. Great weekend.

Hope yours is great also.

EDIT: btw, checked out this relatively new place in Cicero last night called 10 West. I was so impressed by the food (we all were) that I thought I'd recommend it (something I rarely do). I know you live in Geist but it isn't that far ... take your wife out for a nice evening, maybe you'll get lucky 

We talked to the manager to compliment her on the food and my snooty out-of-state in-laws could not believe that it is a local Indiana chef, lol. Actually, my in-laws are not all that horrible, we do get along and love having my nieces and nephew here ... but they definitely look down their noses at Indiana. My MIL suggested that next time she comes I just drop her off at this place every night ... no problem  

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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