# Breakthrough?



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Apologies for the length; I’m not sure how to spell this out more succinctly. Really interested in particular in the opinions of the more experienced ladies hereabouts. 

Recent regulars have seen plenty of my statements of overflowing love and admiration for my wife, pride in the success of our marriage, but also the lamentations over a mostly infrequent/vanilla sex life. Despite loving her as much as ever, and largely in part due to for the first time being exposed the general attitude on this site which I had never considered (that weak sex is actually unacceptable and there’s no shame in wanting/expecting more) I had really reached a point of total disengagement. I didn’t rush through work to get home quickly, I stopped by the gym or went for a run/ride every day, I focused on my hobbies (one of which is gourmet cooking, so she still benefited there, but I digress), etc. Kind of a within the marriage 180. Even though I didn’t ever see myself delivering a sex/divorce ultimatum (yes, I’m right in the Diana camp on that topic), I wasn’t putting any more effort into it or exposing myself to more disappointment. I was cold and distant—not as a form of pouting or passive-aggressive behavior, but just as a matter of trying to put my mental and emotional energy where it might actually benefit me. Still, the disengagement was also accompanied by great crankiness. I had really started to feel as though my life was over and I never really got the chance to live it on account of dedicating my life to this woman. 

Meanwhile, my wife was breaking down herself. Anxiety to the point of illness seeing a doc and getting meds, which, btw, made her sick. No need whatsoever for the anxiety as we’re completely financially secure, but she would obsess over our investments to the point of apoplexy. My theory was that this was all the perfect storm of becoming empty nesters coinciding with the hormonal mayhem of menopause.

Last night, while working on my side job and watching a game on TV, she inquired as to when I was coming to bed, and she had that all too rare “I wanna’ have some fun” twinkle in her eye. I was unmoved. Although I didn’t say it out loud, I was thinking “you can’t expect me to just turn it back on just because you’ve had your once-a-month frisky feeling. “ I would never deny her, but I didn’t feel like putting my heart and soul into it like I always do and was well prepared for some functional sex.

Now here’s the crazy (for us) part. Once in bed, she began talking about our sex life and where it might go. Huh???? This is a previously forbidden topic. She also offered my choice of options: “the natural way” (missionary), “the hand way,” the sex toy way (we have a sleeve masturbator she would occasionally use on me when she didn’t want to be more involved), or “the kiss way (??? Do you mean oral??? Who are you and what have you done with my wife?!?!?)”.

Since she was broaching the subject, I mentioned how much I loved the idea of introducing some variety into our sex life. I also pointed out that, since she at this point needs VJJ recovery time between PIVs, we could engage in other forms of stimulation to increase frequency between PIVs. She is usually quite resistant to manual or oral stimulation despite it having had good results at times. But last night, she agreed that would be a good idea, for us to engage in other sexual activity either as a necessary alternative to PIV or just to mix things up. I know the menopause is really affecting her, so it’s even more surprising that she’s talking about making extra effort when she’s least equipped to enjoy it.

The really amazing thing is that she was positively aglow while saying this. It wasn’t a begrudging willingness to do something just for appeasement, but a genuine personal willingness to branch out for the fun of it, either the fun (as opposed to chore) of pleasing me or the fun for herself or both, I know not yet which.

In the end, despite my reluctance going in, I was not going to deny her. Her sexual aura combined with genuine love, were far too much to resist. Since it had been so long (meaning she’s more sensitive and can’t really handle direct clitoral stimulation) we did the usual, but with the understanding, that would no longer be the only item on the menu. 

Afterward She asked me if I would like her to look up new sexual things we could try together. Inside, I was screaming “YES, YES, YES!!!” but old habits die hard and my instinct to not be needy or demanding just led me to a rather bland “sure if you want to.” Damn! Nevertheless, instead of the usual roll over into spoons and dozing off to sleep, out came the phone and up came the net and the next thing, she was looking at Amazon with a general search term of “sex” and were perusing everything from books on positions to handcuffs to sex toys. Mind you, at this point it was more like a couple giggly teenagers than experience sex aficionados knowing what they want, but even that was great fun. At one point upon seeing a restraint system, she actually said “I could do that to you.” ???? The voice was tentative, so I’m not sure if she was serious, of if she was self conscious, but the fact that such a thing was even allowed to escape her lips was mind-blowing. 


So now we’re here. First, I have to say that as exciting as the prospects are, the thing that fills my heart with joy is that she was open and willing to talk in was she has always avoided. What does or doesn’t come of this is not as important as the fact we seem to have opened up a new line of communication. 

The remaining difficulty, aside from trying not to go overboard here, is the concern for this not bearing sexual fruit after all. Not that I fear rejection—I got over that decades ago, but rather that I get my hope up only to find this was a strange mental musing only to disappear as fast as it arose and I she be the Lucy to my Charlie Brown, pulling the football out from my toe at the last second. I also don't want to read too much into this. I’m normally very decisive, but I can see myself having some trepidation how to proceed here. What to push, when, how hard, etc. I am very heartened by her new openness and don't want to to anything to make her think that was a mistake.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Any reason in particular you can think of why she suddenly had a change of heart? 

I can definitely relate to much of what you wrote in those first few paragraphs.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> Any reason in particular you can think of why she suddenly had a change of heart?
> 
> I can definitely relate to much of what you wrote in those first few paragraphs.


Either by the physical changes her body is going through or the needless worry stress she'd put her self through (probably a combination of both), she had really broken down. She's not high energy to begin with, so it doesn't take much to knock her off her game. When she got down, I took good care of her (as I always do), but this time it was strictly functional. She may have been able to tell I was checking out, even if I didn't say so out loud. 

She's also suffering some loneliness as the result of our recent status as first time empty nesters. I suspect she may be looking for some more bonding with me at this time to help compensate for the departure of our last child. 

Maybe the combination of desire for greater bonding and my relative loss of interest sparked something. I don't know. I kind of doubt it though because I could tell this was genuine, joyful interest, not a begrudging attempt to salvage a failing relationship. 

It may also be worth noting that I worked hard to prepare for empty nest status. Many marriages fail or struggle at this point when two people who have focused for so long on kids have lost touch with each other and now no longer can relate to each other or have drifted dangerously apart. While I tried to remain romantic throughout our marriage, a few months prior to last child's departure, I really started actively dating her again. Quantity and quality of time together both upped quite a bit. 

But the most likely reason, in my estimation, is that she realized I have largely been carrying the load for a long time, and have done so without complaint. She told me I how wonderful it is I have "stuck with her" through all this. She is naturally very private and _very risk averse_--she doesn't open herself up naturally. I remember once she told me it took a long time (what amounted to about 12 years) for her to be able to let herself go with me. I think she has now taken this to the next level.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Have her medications changed recently? This seems like a very drastic change based on what you've written here. Going from depressed, anxious, and LD to sex adventurer overnight seems pretty unusual. Any chance she's bi-polar?

The last time you had sex before this, when was it and how did it go?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> she was looking at Amazon with a general search term of “sex” and were perusing everything from books on positions to handcuffs to sex toys.


You may want to check out Interactive Sex Questionnaire for Couples | Mojo Upgrade if you are unfamiliar with it.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> the fact we seem to have opened up a new line of communication.


I hope that you both are able to keep that up. It's so important, particularly during menopause when you're both going to be a bit confused and unsure as to what the hell is actually going on. 

Good luck.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Reset sex. It's a common tactic, a result of you pulling back.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Either by the physical changes her body is going through or the needless worry stress she'd put her self through (probably a combination of both), she had really broken down. She's not high energy to begin with, so it doesn't take much to knock her off her game. When she got down, I took good care of her (as I always do), but this time it was strictly functional. She may have been able to tell I was checking out, even if I didn't say so out loud.
> 
> She's also suffering some loneliness as the result of our recent status as first time empty nesters. I suspect she may be looking for some more bonding with me at this time to help compensate for the departure of our last child.
> 
> ...


Well, definitely run with it and have as much fun as possible! Hopefully it isn't something short lived meant to draw you back in, and instead something a bit more lasting. I could definitely understand why you might be a little guarded. Your comment regarding how you were unmoved the previous night from her "have some fun" look, I can relate all too well. Good luck!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Reset sex. It's a common tactic, a result of you pulling back.


Well, that would be the natural assumption. 

But for all my sexual disappointments with my wife, I can say with certainty she has never done anything deceitful, duplicitous, or disingenuous. She's always been very genuine in her disagreement and I'm confident she's equally genuine now. Unwavering honesty is her trademark through and through. She will avoid rather than do anything not completely up front. 

This isn't the first time I've pulled back, but it is the first time she has behaved this way. She has always seen that either as "my problem" or said that she has problems of her own and no energy left over to deal with me. Over the last three decades, have witnessed enthusiastic participation, begrudging participation, and straight up rejection. I can tell the difference. 

I continue to operate under the belief this is genuine--my only question is how to nurture and make the most out of it... for both of us.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CharlieParker said:


> You may want to check out Interactive Sex Questionnaire for Couples | Mojo Upgrade if you are unfamiliar with it.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks,
I thought of that, having looked at that as the result of a post on another thread some months ago. I have doubts about its utility in our case since, at least in my perception, the items contained therein jump pretty quickly from maybe to no effing way! But I will keep it in mind just in case I don't get a good fix on where we are and where we are going. After all, I would have never imagined her suggesting, even jokingly, the use of restraints. 

I had made it clear i would love to be on the receiving end of oral, and she knows full well I love giving it, so her talking like she's open to that didn't seem too far out of whack, even if it was out of character. I have also fantasized about being restrained, but never said so out loud, or even hinted at it. It was like she was reading my mind. Quite possibly the single biggest surprise in our three plus decades together.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Once in bed, she began talking about our sex life and where it might go. Huh???? This is a previously forbidden topic.


Improving communication is great, but perhaps there is something unknown lurking underneath the surface that prompted her to push her boundaries and be more open. Perhaps it was something positive as in she appreciated something in the marriage. Or it could have been something negative such as fear or guilt that pushed her into action. 



> The remaining difficulty, aside from trying not to go overboard here, is the concern for this not bearing sexual fruit after all. Not that I fear rejection—I got over that decades ago, but rather that I get my hope up only to find this was a strange mental musing only to disappear as fast as it arose and I she be the Lucy to my Charlie Brown, pulling the football out from my toe at the last second.


It is very unrealistic to think that all your problems are about to improve as with any situation in life there will always be setbacks and unforeseen challenges. 

As for shopping online for sex books and whatnot, I have found that if a partner is reluctant with their sexuality that a book on sexuality will very likely feel threatening. Even before opening/receiving it there could be triggers of fear and anxiety that may cause problems. In my opinion the best way to help a reluctant partner research and learn more about sex is just to read on your own and then share what information is actually relevant. Perhaps have a book nearby for reference if she inquires about how something was worded. But do not expect her to read or follow through with something in a book.

One awkward thing about books is if they are written by a woman, and your wife is jealous or feels easily threatened/inadequate... then the author of the book could be viewed as if the ideas of another threatening woman were just invited into your bedroom. Your wife may fear you are more excited by the ideas coming from another woman than you are of her. So be careful with that! 

So @Rocky Mountain Yeti if your wife is generally vanilla/conservative when it comes to sex, and she is opening the door to try new things... I strongly advise you to focus just as much on trying new things for nonsexual intimacy as sexual intimacy. If something new happens in the bedroom, make an effort to try something new outside the bedroom as well. 

my 2¢...

Badsanta


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

@badsanta,
thanks for the response. Lots to think about there. 




badsanta said:


> Improving communication is great, but perhaps there is something unknown lurking underneath the surface that prompted her to push her boundaries and be more open. Perhaps it was something positive as in she appreciated something in the marriage. Or it could have been something negative such as fear or guilt that pushed her into action.
> 
> I suspect it may well be a combination of both. While she has often been unresponsive, she is at least aware of this and has come to see the stress it has put on our relationship. She didn't get it for a long time because, according to her, she was perfectly happy with things, so she had trouble empathizing with me. I believe she is genuine when she states her appreciation for my steadfastness throughout all the difficulties.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Apologies for the length; I’m not sure how to spell this out more succinctly. Really interested in particular in the opinions of the more experienced ladies hereabouts. .....
> 
> ...I had really reached a point of total disengagement. I didn’t rush through work to get home quickly, I stopped by the gym or went for a run/ride every day, I focused on my hobbies (one of which is gourmet cooking, so she still benefited there, but I digress), etc. Kind of a within the marriage 180. Even though I didn’t ever see myself delivering a sex/divorce ultimatum (yes, I’m right in the Diana camp on that topic), I wasn’t putting any more effort into it or exposing myself to more disappointment. I was cold and distant—not as a form of pouting or passive-aggressive behavior, but just as a matter of trying to put my mental and emotional energy where it might actually benefit me. Still, the disengagement was also accompanied by great crankiness. I had really started to feel as though my life was over and I never really got the chance to live it on account of dedicating my life to this woman.
> 
> ...


Congratulations.

As you probably know you have been working on the GAL that both Glover and MW Davis recommend for rebuilding a marriage.

One of the keys in MW Davis 180 program is "positive reinforcement" of desired behaviors.

You need to give your wife positive reinforcement without it being a covert contract. So think carefully about if your positive reinforcement has any "strings" attached or is an expression of unconditional love. But for goodness sake, keep up your gym/hobby activities!

Now a couple more pieces of advice, 

Even if she has truly turned the corner, she will back-slide and break your heart every now and then. Expect it, don't over-react and don't loose heart. When it happens, smile at her and ask her what happened? Why did you just do that? Don't get mad, just get curious.

When she gave you options and she asked you if she should look up things. Smile at her and say that would be nice or that would/did make you very happy. 

Your wife probably talked to a friend who may be going through divorce and realized just how badly she has been treating you. The key is to work with what you have and make her feel really good about her changed behavior, without becoming co-dependent. 

Tell her how much you liked the other night and ask her if there is anything you can do or change that would make her happy. Tell her you aren't promising you will do it, but there might be some things you would also enjoy as well.

Good luck. And well done.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, that would be the natural assumption.
> 
> But for all my sexual disappointments with my wife, I can say with certainty she has never done anything deceitful, duplicitous, or disingenuous. She's always been very genuine in her disagreement and I'm confident she's equally genuine now. Unwavering honesty is her trademark through and through. She will avoid rather than do anything not completely up front.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt your wife's honesty, but my question (born out of my own crankiness and resentment) would be "what is your level of commitment to keeping this going?"


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Fozzy said:


> I don't doubt your wife's honesty, but my question (born out of my own crankiness and resentment) would be "what is your level of commitment to keeping this going?"


Agreed. She has never been one to step outside her comfort zone. Nor does she like to put more effort into things than the minimum possible. If it ever starts looking like work on her part, she may simply choose to save her available energy for other things. All this is possible, maybe even probable.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Congrats my man! Run with it and enjoy. Don't think too much about why it happened just be glad it did. This is a great opportunity. I sincerely hope you two have a good run!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Speaking as a lady who has been through both empty nest and menopause, it really does mess with you. But what I found is that after I came to grips with "I'm not a mom anymore" and after the hormones settled a bit, I realized we had a whole empty house to ourselves AND I can't keep my hands off Dear Hubby...so  In a way it felt like part of me that had been sleeping just woke up. Okay we were always pretty sexual, don't get me wrong, but in the back of my mind was "what the kids walk in?" or "what if they hear us?" etc. Without that worry, it was like a honeymoon!

I'm not saying this is what your wife is thinking, but I am saying this is what happend for me, and by the time it happened I was old enough to know how to have good sex and what I liked! Sex in the 20s and 30s was energetic but just learning--sex in the 40's and 50's was PLEASURE! 

So here's my thought. Why not just tell her you are very pleased with her openness and you hope it continues...and leave it at that?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> So here's my thought. Why not just tell her you are very pleased with her openness and you hope it continues...and leave it at that?


Thanks so much for your response. I intend to tell her exactly that.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I really hope this is a breakthrough, and it may be. Just be aware that it might vanish. My wife and I have gone through a few phases like this, but they never last long. I hope your experience is different.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

My wife went through a period where she decided to push up the frequency and see what my limit was, that never happened . It settled down much closer to the baseline, after a few more blowups it's gotten to the tolerable point lately.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Congratulations!

Now I recommend that you don't screw it up by reverting to your "wife-pleasing" default setting.

Some (note, *not all)* women seem to need some uncertainty about their partner's commitment to remain interested in sex.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Reset sex. It's a common tactic, a result of you pulling back.


This is what I thought as well.
She could be genuinely interested in improving things. She could also be over-compensating for your distance and see it as danger, Will Robinson. As Odo puts it, "a well-fed dog does not roam." Not saying you would, but the thought from her end is sometimes enough to produce (temporary?) action. 

I think you're doing the right thing, maintaining your reserve and just watching. Don't stop going to the gym or doing those other things. Rome wasn't built in a day. Time and consistent actions will tell if she is really dedicated or if this is just temporary. I'm sure you want to give it your complete enthusiasm, but cautious optimism may be best.

As others said, enjoy it and give her positive, honest feedback about appreciating her attention. 

I do hope for the best.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

This is good stuff. I hope same happens in my marriage after kids are out. I'm sure it's natural for her to slip some but her willingness to get back up is what's important. Good luck!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a lady who has been through both empty nest and menopause, it really does mess with you. But what I found is that after I came to grips with "I'm not a mom anymore" and after the hormones settled a bit, I realized we had a whole empty house to ourselves AND I can't keep my hands off Dear Hubby...so  In a way it felt like part of me that had been sleeping just woke up. Okay we were always pretty sexual, don't get me wrong, but in the back of my mind was "what the kids walk in?" or "what if they hear us?" etc. Without that worry, it was like a honeymoon!
> 
> I'm not saying this is what your wife is thinking, but I am saying this is what happend for me, and by the time it happened I was old enough to know how to have good sex and what I liked! Sex in the 20s and 30s was energetic but just learning--sex in the 40's and 50's was PLEASURE!
> 
> So here's my thought. Why not just tell her you are very pleased with her openness and you hope it continues...and leave it at that?


Yes, this. Exactly what I was thinking! Hormones and menopause and empty nest can all lead to a revaluation and a new normal.

But I would also recommend buying her the handcuffs so she can tie you up.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@Rocky Mountain Yeti

Curious, in the past, was it just a lack of interest in sex on your Ws part, was it something where she frequently rejected you, or something else? I wonder if maybe all along her mentality was that eventually things would get better, kids would be out of the house and there would be less distractions. This would make it easier to brush off sex, at the expense of wasting a lot of good years.

I thought @Satya said it perfectly, be supportive/positive, but at the end of the day consistent actions will speak louder than words.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've heard many stories about women 'maturing' in their 30s or 40s and shedding the 'role' they feel they were supposed to play, no longer trying to live up to parents' expectations, and no longer caring what 'society' would think of her for enjoying sex. Maybe that's happening to her.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> @Rocky Mountain Yeti
> 
> Curious, in the past, was it just a lack of interest in sex on your Ws part, was it something where she frequently rejected you, or something else? I wonder if maybe all along her mentality was that eventually things would get better, kids would be out of the house and there would be less distractions. This would make it easier to brush off sex, at the expense of wasting a lot of good years.
> 
> I thought @Satya said it perfectly, be supportive/positive, but at the end of the day consistent actions will speak louder than words.


 @EllisRedding
In the past, it was a lot of things. Sex was kind of a disaster right from the start. She is easily negatively affected by just about anything. It started with birth control. The pill gave her headaches. I couldn't feel a thing with a condom and then one broke leading to an unwanted pregnancy, which she then lost which was even worse. She is prone to UTIs and the diaphragm only made that worse. Amazingly, the only thing that worked was the one method you never recommend--the rhythm method! But her cycle was always utterly predictable. All three of her subsequent pregnancies were one and done by not doing it out of cycle. Perfectly predictable and perfectly planned.

But then, of course, the whole kid thing was a libido killer. So going through three kids until the point they were all in school took a decade.

By then she was having serious energy problems (particularly problematic in her case because she was low energy to begin with), which after some years was finally diagnosed as a thyroid imbalance. We got that fixed right in time for menopause. So there you have it--almost 30 years elapsed and never really got anything going.

It wasn't all awful though. There were times she would get frisky and even a little aggressive, so I at least had some feedback that she was into it at least a little bit, if rather more infrequently than I would have liked. She tells me there was a stretch when she really enjoyed sex, but I can't for the life of me figure out when that was since it was never really frequent (except when we very first started doing it), nor is she demonstrative, so I really couldn't tell during the act. 

I do know for fact that she never O'd with me for at least the first 12 years, which hurt a lot--not so much that it didn't happen (that of course was disappointing), but because she never saw that it was important for it to happen, that felt like the ultimate rejection right there. When I expressed as much, BAM! Back into the shell, and what was probably our best years, down the sexual drain. I tried to explain that maybe if she climaxed, she might be feel like doing it more often, but there was no communication being received at that point. 

I guess that's all just a long way of saying no, I don't think she was consciously waiting for things to get better, but rather just trying to deal with her issues all along and there was little energy left over for sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

turnera said:


> I've heard many stories about women 'maturing' in their 30s or 40s and shedding the 'role' they feel they were supposed to play, no longer trying to live up to parents' expectations, and no longer caring what 'society' would think of her for enjoying sex. Maybe that's happening to her.


 @turnera

I saw that with my mother in her 30s. Not sexually, of course, but even as a youngster I could see her becoming her own woman and suddenly being who she wanted to be rather than who she thought she should be. 

I doubt this with my wife though. She's always been pretty solid about who she is--one of the things that made me know we were well matched and could have a successful life together. But sexually, it's hard to say. She didn't come from a repressed background and while reserved herself, had some pretty wild friends. But who knows? If there's one thing that has sunk in since I've been prowling TAM, it's how little I, as a man, understand the societal influences on a girl and how they may affect her maturation as a woman.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> @EllisRedding
> In the past, it was a lot of things. Sex was kind of a disaster right from the start. She is easily negatively affected by just about anything. It started with birth control. The pill gave her headaches. I couldn't feel a thing with a condom and then one broke leading to an unwanted pregnancy, which she then lost which was even worse. She is prone to UTIs and the diaphragm only made that worse. Amazingly, the only thing that worked was the one method you never recommend--the rhythm method! But her cycle was always utterly predictable. All three of her subsequent pregnancies were one and done by not doing it out of cycle. Perfectly predictable and perfectly planned.
> 
> But then, of course, the whole kid thing was a libido killer. So going through three kids until the point they were all in school took a decade.
> ...


Interesting, thanks. Some of that does sound similar to my W as well (plus we have 3 young kids lol). 

I will say that from my experience at least, making sure she O'd each time (in the past, it was more like take it or leave it for her) made no difference in terms of her interest/desire (didn't hurt obviously, but didn't help either).


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Let her lead the way. She may be more comfortable in the role of pursuer as it gives her a feeling of being in control. Just don't jump up and down with glee as anticipated expectations might shut her down. Look at this as an adventure and enjoy the ride. Hopefully, she'll enjoy herself enough to make a permanent change. Good luck and have fun.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

wild jade said:


> Yes, this. Exactly what I was thinking! Hormones and menopause and empty nest can all lead to a revaluation and a new normal.
> 
> *But I would also recommend buying her the handcuffs so she can tie you up.*


*
*

*DO IT* @Rocky Mountain Yeti!! You'll know the best manner of presenting the Amazon treat, _what she herself suggested_, that will yield the results for which you are hoping (sooooo desperately, hoping...lol). It's a great step forward for you! 

Maintain your lack of neediness, while letting her know how pleased you are that she's willing to work on this area with you. With your wife it seems approach and timing are key? Progress may be more likely if it appears this new direction is actually HER idea, which you wholeheartedly support because of the following:

"Hon, I've been a bit sad and detached contemplating that as we enter this exciting, golden phase in our lives...the empty nest, financial freedom and stability- yet our sex life is going to remain stagnant. We are better than that! I would like our intimacy to be a source of energy and FUN for us, as it is for others in their midlife. The thought that this may not be the case has become very difficult to accept. I'm happy that you seem to understand how beneficial this is for us." (Or something to this effect. Again, you know her best) 

Good luck! And well done getting her to this point. I'm cheering for you both!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Interesting convo last night:

She had seen a therapist about her anxiety. Fortunately, he was far better than the first doc who gave her meds that made her sick. 

During their session, he of course inquired about me and how things were and she told him how wonderful and supportive I am, but she was worried as my blood pressure had been shooting up lately (just prehypertensive, not full on hypertensive). In addition to helping her, he told her how awful high BP is and how it hurts someone and shortens lifespan even if the person doesn't have a heart attack and die. So she's back on the "you need meds" kick. I don't take meds if something can be managed otherwise. I don't take aspirin for headaches and I don't even take prescribed pain meds when I get a significant injury. So, I've been getting my weight back down (never obese and always firm, but now I'm getting back down to college weight). 

But with regard to natural BP management what I told my wife was the best way for me to get it down was with more nights like the previous one. She reaffirmed her commitment to doing so by saying "you're going to read up on that, right?" You see, the other thing the therapist did was give her an extensive reading list focused on helping her to manager her anxiety and insomnia. She told me she already had more reading on her plate than she can handle, so exploration of whatever non-PIV things we could do to increase frequency between PIVs was up to me. 

While this might seem like a lack of commitment on her part, I see it as a positive. She reaffirmed her commitment to adding both frequency and variety. She also generally likes me to lead, so she's basically saying "you're in charge" as usual, but this time she's actually willing to follow in the bedroom as she generally does outside the bedrooom. I am heartened.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Let her lead the way. She may be more comfortable in the role of pursuer as it gives her a feeling of being in control. Just don't jump up and down with glee as anticipated expectations might shut her down. Look at this as an adventure and enjoy the ride. Hopefully, she'll enjoy herself enough to make a permanent change. Good luck and have fun.


See my last post--I'm sure she's looking for me to lead the way overall. That said, she does have her moments of pursuit. The other night was a good example. There are times where I exude crankiness or lack of interest and she gets a real charge out of turning that around. When I'm determined to be cranky or focused on something else and then end up powerless against her seduction, sometimes that gets her wound up more than any physical foreplay I could ever perform on her. It really is quite fascinating... and fun. 

So it seems it's up to me to create the right environment, but then give her the opportunity to occasionally pursue/take control within that environment. Now, it's time to focus on the fun. @WildJade--yes, I think the restraints will be making an appearance.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Apologies for the length; I’m not sure how to spell this out more succinctly. Really interested in particular in the opinions of the more experienced ladies hereabouts.
> 
> Recent regulars have seen plenty of my statements of overflowing love and admiration for my wife, pride in the success of our marriage, but also the lamentations over a mostly infrequent/vanilla sex life. Despite loving her as much as ever, and largely in part due to for the first time being exposed the general attitude on this site which I had never considered (that weak sex is actually unacceptable and there’s no shame in wanting/expecting more) I had really reached a point of total disengagement. I didn’t rush through work to get home quickly, I stopped by the gym or went for a run/ride every day, I focused on my hobbies (one of which is gourmet cooking, so she still benefited there, but I digress), etc. Kind of a within the marriage 180. Even though I didn’t ever see myself delivering a sex/divorce ultimatum (yes, I’m right in the Diana camp on that topic), I wasn’t putting any more effort into it or exposing myself to more disappointment. I was cold and distant—not as a form of pouting or passive-aggressive behavior, but just as a matter of trying to put my mental and emotional energy where it might actually benefit me. Still, the disengagement was also accompanied by great crankiness. I had really started to feel as though my life was over and I never really got the chance to live it on account of dedicating my life to this woman.
> 
> ...


*Damn, Rocky! 

That passage of yours flat out has made this old fart's heart have major palpitations!

Congratulations are totally in order, Sir! "Keep up" the good work!*


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> See my last post--I'm sure she's looking for me to lead the way overall. That said, she does have her moments of pursuit. The other night was a good example. There are times where I exude crankiness or lack of interest and she gets a real charge out of turning that around. When I'm determined to be cranky or focused on something else and then end up powerless against her seduction, sometimes that gets her wound up more than any physical foreplay I could ever perform on her. It really is quite fascinating... and fun.
> 
> So it seems it's up to me to create the right environment, but then give her the opportunity to occasionally pursue/take control within that environment. Now, it's time to focus on the fun. @WildJade--yes, I think the restraints will be making an appearance.


Don't be cranky unless she asks you to be.

As to restraints and other "stuff." Make sure she has a "safe word" that indicates pause and another safe word that means full stop and untie me. Then before you do anything, I would strongly suggest you discuss optional things you can do and let her choose one that she wants, but ask if there is anything you can do or she wants to do that would make the scene more meaningful to her. Finally after you are done, make sure you practice "aftercare."

Aftercare is about reinforcing how much you care about her, how proud you are of her bravery and love for you, how excited you got, how lucky you are to have a woman like her, etc. The idea is that you have stretched her boundaries and she needs positive reinforcement to know that she is still a "good girl" and proper wife. 

Now go out there and enjoy, but gently.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Don't stop doing what you did to get her to come around. This is what has her finally chasing you! Keep doing what you're doing. Keep her wondering, keep her in this state of mind. Don't give in to your natural tendency, this new change in you is changing her.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Don't be cranky unless she asks you to be.
> 
> As to restraints and other "stuff." Make sure she has a "safe word" that indicates pause and another safe word that means full stop and untie me. Then before you do anything, I would strongly suggest you discuss optional things you can do and let her choose one that she wants, but ask if there is anything you can do or she wants to do that would make the scene more meaningful to her. Finally after you are done, make sure you practice "aftercare."
> 
> ...


Thank you for the thoughtful post. 

Her statement when she saw the restraints was that _she_ could do that to _me_. So I guess I'm the one who needs a safe word! We guys are loathe to show, or even consider weakness so such a thought would never occur to me from my side, but your suggestion is well taken either way.

Ditto the aftercare. We practice that even following vanilla sex, but it seems like it may be even more appropriate here. Thanks for the reminder. Even good habits are easy to forget sometimes.

I have tried throughout our marriage to reinforce the notion that I both love and respect her, regardless of whatever doubts she may have herself. On rare occasions where she has let herself go, I have been very careful to to show both acceptance and appreciation. By now, I'm confident she knows she will get no judgment from me if she gets freaky. I'm afraid any remaining reservations are self-imposed

Even though it's been a long time coming, now that she's showing willingness, and even a little enthusiasm, I'm in no hurry. I'm good with baby steps. And as much as I'm pleased with what this may do for me in the bedroom, I'm equally pleased with what it may do not only for her sexual fulfillment, but her broader self-acceptance. Part of my job is to facilitate that in a loving, supportive way.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

JayDee7 said:


> Don't stop doing what you did to get her to come around. This is what has her finally chasing you! Keep doing what you're doing. Keep her wondering, keep her in this state of mind. Don't give in to your natural tendency, this new change in you is changing her.


Yeah, it seems so counterintuitive. But I'd be surprised to find out this is completely coincidental.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If you are going to play with restraints / dominance stuff, that's great, but be sure you are on the same page on what you would enjoy. A lot of people think its "obvious" what is fun to do with a restrained partner, but in fact there is a huge amount of variation. You want this to be fun for both of you, so you need to talk a bit.






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> See my last post--I'm sure she's looking for me to lead the way overall. That said, she does have her moments of pursuit. The other night was a good example. There are times where I exude crankiness or lack of interest and she gets a real charge out of turning that around. When I'm determined to be cranky or focused on something else and then end up powerless against her seduction, sometimes that gets her wound up more than any physical foreplay I could ever perform on her. It really is quite fascinating... and fun.
> 
> So it seems it's up to me to create the right environment, but then give her the opportunity to occasionally pursue/take control within that environment. Now, it's time to focus on the fun. @WildJade--yes, I think the restraints will be making an appearance.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> If you are going to play with restraints / dominance stuff, that's great, but be sure you are on the same page on what you would enjoy. A lot of people think its "obvious" what is fun to do with a restrained partner, but in fact there is a huge amount of variation. You want this to be fun for both of you, so you need to talk a bit.


Agreed. My wife doesn't like surprises, and she doesn't like to have to improvise, so having some preplanning in place is essential.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> She reaffirmed her commitment to adding both frequency and variety. *She also generally likes me to lead,* so she's basically saying "you're in charge" as usual, but this time she's actually willing to follow in the bedroom as she generally does outside the bedrooom. I am heartened.


This in my opinion is important! 

I think many of those in relationships with mismatched drives never stop to appreciate this dynamic, and learn how to accept it for what it is. Instead when a spouse is reluctant to lead it is interpreted as a form of disinterest and the whole, "I want my partner to 'want' me" mantra begins ripping the relationship to shreds. 

Some spouses enjoy a partner that takes the lead, learns to respect boundaries, and brings energy into the relationship. So if your spouse wants you to take the lead, embrace that! Start taking responsibility for things that will be exciting for the two of you to try. I do strongly recommend making sure you understand what and why you might enjoy something as she may ask questions afterwards. Be prepared to answer. If you are sincere, honest, and vulnerable regarding any questions she may have, this may be exciting for her. The reason being is that she will begin to feel more confident about know what and why you like things. Along with this confidence will follow the fact that she may start to feel empowered with this knowledge in the relationship, and once that happens... and you have a wife that is both confident and empowered ...

...you'll be left in the bedroom blown away with excitement and not exactly sure what just happened!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> This in my opinion is important!
> 
> I think many of those in relationships with mismatched drives never stop to appreciate this dynamic, and learn how to accept it for what it is. Instead when a spouse is reluctant to lead it is interpreted as a form of disinterest and the whole, "I want my partner to 'want' me" mantra begins ripping the relationship to shreds.
> 
> ...


I'm sure that's often true. I don't think that's how the dynamic developed in our relationship. It wasn't the lack of initiation on her part that made me think she lacked desire, it was the refusals when I did initiate. I was never discouraged by just a lack of initiation on her part. 

That said, after a while I did consider the possibility that me not initiating to avoid being told no may have been "logical" or even "appropriate," but it wasn't helping the situation. Returning to initiation on my part reaffirmed for her that I still found her desirable and actually gave things a little boost. Not really enough for me, but enough to help restore her confidence, and there was benefit in that. 

She has always been squeamish talking about sex, but I will indeed be honest and sincere in all things as she (hopefully) opens up more.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm sure that's often true. I don't think that's how the dynamic developed in our relationship. It wasn't the lack of initiation on her part that made me think she lacked desire, it was the refusals when I did initiate. I was never discouraged by just a lack of initiation on her part.
> 
> That said, after a while I did consider the possibility that me not initiating to avoid being told no may have been "logical" or even "appropriate," but it wasn't helping the situation. Returning to initiation on my part reaffirmed for her that I still found her desirable and actually gave things a little boost. Not really enough for me, but enough to help restore her confidence, and there was benefit in that.
> 
> She has always been squeamish talking about sex, but I will indeed be honest and sincere in all things as she (hopefully) opens up more.


OK, this got me thinking as you are indeed correct and I have experienced similar rejections in my own marriage with me initiating. 

By "taking the lead" I am fairly certain that this is what she wants once she has ALREADY decided that she will be sexually receptive. 

If I were to walk up to my wife in the middle of the day and ask, "hey you want to try something crazy" that she would totally reject that. However during the heat of the moment, if I want to try something new, she tells me to just be confident and be responsible for doing what needs to be done to try it. She does not like talking about things beforehand, but we do often enjoy talking afterwards when something different happens. So that was what I meant about being prepared to answer questions about things, as communicating afterwards works much better for feedback than before or during. 

Now as for how to go about getting your wife to be sexually receptive more often, I'm going to leave that one alone! Just work on being super confident about doing something new once you get the green light! 

Badsanta


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti:

Have you thought about setting the scenario for her, but letting her fill in the details?

For example, you buy some washable colored marking pens or finger/body paint and suggest she restrain you and then use you body to paint for her amusement? She could draw pictures, shapes, or words on you. 

You could make up any role playing kind of game or power exchange scenario and then ask her how she would like to fill in the details and if any "props" would aid in her enjoyment. She could explore teasing, tickling, heavy duty sex or anything between.

Good luck. I envy you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> OK, this got me thinking as you are indeed correct and I have experienced similar rejections in my own marriage with me initiating.
> 
> By "taking the lead" I am fairly certain that this is what she wants once she has ALREADY decided that she will be sexually receptive.
> 
> ...


Again, a little different dynamic here. My wife doesn't do much at all "in the heat of the moment." She like to have things presented with no immediate pressure to respond. No time limit--her own schedule to consider and approve/disapprove. She is not at all comfortable going off script. So, unless she really shifts gears here, I'm going to broach subjects well in advance, give her time to get used to the idea without pressure, and then hope she's feeling good and willing to follow through when the opportunity (or scheduled) time arrives.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti:
> 
> Have you thought about setting the scenario for her, but letting her fill in the details?
> 
> ...


Yes, my mind is working very much along those lines. I think the best approach is for me to lead in the selection of broad ideas and environments without scripting anything too tightly to allow her the freedom to express herself. 

These are all great theories and I'm looking forward to putting them into practice, but it may have to wait a bit as my Dad just went into the hospital (he's 84 and a lifelong chain smoker). Have to find out how serious this is. Don't want to lose momentum though on the home front. Life is always such a balancing act.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, a little different dynamic here. My wife doesn't do much at all "in the heat of the moment." She like to have things presented with no immediate pressure to respond. No time limit--her own schedule to consider and approve/disapprove. She is not at all comfortable going off script. So, unless she really shifts gears here,* I'm going to broach subjects well in advance, give her time to get used to the idea without pressure, and then hope she's feeling good and willing to follow through when the opportunity (or scheduled) time arrives.*


THAT right there is what was likely causing 90% of the problems in my marriage in regards to intimacy. I wanted to talk about new things and enjoy anticipating them. In reality I think it was making my wife feel inadequate (as in why can't I just enjoy things naturally) and it was making me look as if lacking confidence (not sure if I should try a new idea or not). 

So when it comes to going off script, you have to do so within the boundaries of trust. Ask your wife how much she trusts you to take the lead and just try something new? You can and should in my opinion do this in advance so that you have a very clear idea of what will make your wife uncomfortable and why. Then once the moment arrives you can be playful and surprise her a little within the context of something you know she will be OK trying. No guarantee that it will be enjoyable, but generally speaking variety is the spice of life and I am fairly certain your wife would enjoy you taking the lead with introducing things AND using your common sense not to do something that pushes her beyond her boundaries. 

Using "change of venue" as an example of the backseat of your car. Your wife does not need a detailed discussion about the new hydraulics you just installed and waiting to make sure she will not be too offended. Just have fun and let her think it was you rocking her world. 










Cheers, 
Badsanta


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