# Is it normal for a male to.....



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

.....take several glances at a pretty woman in your vicinity while you are in a committed relationship? Not just a look and a thought and that is it. But another look etc.

Is it normal to look at a pretty woman as you walk past her waiting outside a shop, do your stuff at the cashpoint, and then take another look before you walk away? 

I ask this because I don't know what is normal behaviour anymore. I have dealt with extremes of this, and this small thing bothers me immensely with the triggers it holds.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Perfect example just happened with Regret and me. We were hanging out at one of our favorite watering holes for a burger and a drink. A cute girl walked through the door. I looked up and saw her. She was cute. Looked at Regret and said, "She's cute," and went back to eating my burger.

That's it. Look and it should be done. If ya gotta linger or keep on trying to get another glance behind your SO's back - very uncool.

I'm upfront with Regret. I _will_ look at a pretty girl. And that's all I will do. I won't drone on and on...like my brother used to with his wife - except he did it under the guise of calling the girl a tramp or a sl-t to justify continuing to look.

I mean, unless you're doing threesomes and crap, ya ain't gonna get anything out of it. At least that's my viewpoint.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

There is looking then there is looooking. For me if you're with someone you can look, I mean how long does it take to register an image on your cornea..microseconds? You see then you look away two seconds max. But to stare, gawk, re-look to the point your partner notices it is just in my book disrespectful..especially if he's done the dirty in the past. He cant even pretend in front of you..that's a problem


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Nothing could be more normal but few things are as stupid.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

"You cannot prevent the birds from flying over your head, but you can prevent them from building nests in your hair"


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

HarryDoyle said:


> "You cannot prevent the birds from flying over your head, but you can prevent them from building nests in your hair"


I heard that quote in 1996. I've never forgotten it.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Nothing could be more normal but few things are as stupid.


First, you're 100% correct.

Second, I was sipping something when I read your post and it was so funny (and wise) I blew kool aid all over my screen. So thank you very much.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Remains said:


> .....take several glances at a pretty woman in your vicinity while you are in a committed relationship? Not just a look and a thought and that is it. But another look etc.
> 
> Is it normal to look at a pretty woman as you walk past her waiting outside a shop, do your stuff at the cashpoint, and then take another look before you walk away?
> 
> I ask this because I don't know what is normal behaviour anymore. I have dealt with extremes of this, and this small thing bothers me immensely with the triggers it holds.


"Normal" might not be that relevant - after all what does that even mean?

It sounds disrespectful for sure.

Even if I'm with a female friend I would never do that. In fact, I wouldn't do it because the lady being looked at would probably feel like a piece of meat.

Either way, the man doing this has something he needs to address; he might be doing it to get at you. He might be doing it because he sees women as objects.

Either way, it's something that needs to be addressed.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks for the replies guys. I think you summed up the situation I am getting at perfectly Dig. 

And Chris, he has done it to get at me before! How sh*t is that! And he has looked at women in a prolonged fashion, totally disrespected me, maybe not as meat but certainly to show interest...maybe meat! That was when he was a different man. Though maybe not that different it seems! Maybe now he just hides it well.

It is not continual glances or lingering looks, at least not any more. And it is so difficult now to assess the situation because I really have drummed it into him that he better not do that (what he used to do when he was that 'other' man) in front of me, or even without me, and also I am now hyper sensitive about it. 

I am sure he has done it since...the continual glances that is....but he does look around a lot, e.g. in a pub. But I see him looking around and then stopping milliseconds more on a particular person, a woman....sounds stupid I know, paranoid or whatever, but as I said, I am now hypersensitive about it. And in fact, he will glance round a LOT more when there is an attractive woman in our vicinity! I have stupidly brought it up and of course he denies doing it. 

So, last week I saw my half brother who I don't see much. He has a very attractive gf. My man was drunk. His eyes most definitely lingered on her. And I was pissed off. I said nothing. But...I have said previously that if any, ANY, of that behaviour returned, I am off. 

And then on Friday, the shop/cashpoint girl. she had her back mostly to us as we walked past, he glanced towards her as we were walking past. He got his money. I purposefully stood so that he could look easily again if he so wished before we walked away, not walking past her again but away from her. He did take another glance.

I was very pissed off. Said nothing. Hid it almost well. We went for food. 

I have seen men ogle at women while with a woman. And you just think 'what a creep'. I have seen men who don't...is it that they just haven't at that point or they just don't in general. Therefore my question. And yes, a glance is a glance. You can't help who you see. But to go back for more....I am glad the general consensus is affirmative. Thankyou.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> "Normal" might not be that relevant - after all what does that even mean?
> 
> It sounds disrespectful for sure.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Modern wisdom seems to push men towards becoming more and more docile, towards repressing what is natural male behavior. Folks can call it stupid, or brutish, but why? Is it acceptable to call women immature if they're emotional? Just because a man is in a relationship doesn't mean he has to keep his balls in her purse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BobSimmons said:


> There is looking then there is looooking. For me if you're with someone you can look, I mean how long does it take to register an image on your cornea..microseconds? You see then you look away two seconds max. But to stare, gawk, re-look to the point your partner notices it is just in my book disrespectful..especially if he's done the dirty in the past. He cant even pretend in front of you..that's a problem


He doesn't gawk anymore. Or re-look in an obvious fashion. As above, I am hyper sensitive. 

I think he does pretend though. And that IS the problem. He hasn't 'changed' like he insists he has. He just hides it better. A lot better.

I feel that what is going on is very subtle and in any normal situation wouldn't really be a problem. But given what has gone on, this isn't a normal situation. And this is just a subtle indication (is it? Hence the question.) that things with him are not truly changed or different. He just hides it better and keeps a tighter lid on it.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A man does not need to put his balls in his woman's purse but neither should he lay them on her chopping block. A little discretion and stealthiness accompanied by plausible deniability is called for.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> I disagree. Modern wisdom seems to push men towards becoming more and more docile, towards repressing what is natural male behavior. Folks can call it stupid, or brutish, but why? Is it acceptable to call women immature if they're emotional? Just because a man is in a relationship doesn't mean he has to keep his balls in her purse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't understand the point you are making.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> I disagree. Modern wisdom seems to push men towards becoming more and more docile, towards repressing what is natural male behavior. Folks can call it stupid, or brutish, but why? Is it acceptable to call women immature if they're emotional? Just because a man is in a relationship doesn't mean he has to keep his balls in her purse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it your opinion that it is ok for a man in a serious relationship to repeatedly glance at an attractive woman? That it is normal? 

I know when I have been single and there is an attractive male, I struggle to keep my eyes off. But in my relationship, I look once, as I would look at anyone else, and that would be it. Anything more is giving an indication of a 'come on' or that I am open to stuff that single people do. 

And in fact, I have no interest of looking again. What is the point when I have no interest outside my partner. It isn't like studying a work of art. It is just another person in the sea of people. Some are more attractive than others.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> A man does not need to put his balls in his woman's purse but neither should he lay them on her chopping block. A little discretion and stealthiness accompanied by plausible deniability is called for.


It wouldn't be so bad if he was open about it. Like Dig says, 'she's a cute girl' or such like. There is much safety and security with honesty. But my man is not honest. I don't believe so anyway.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Is your guy ADD or ADHD?


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I don't understand the point you are making.


My point is that yes, it's natural male behavior, that doesn't make it stupid as was posted above. Society seems to be pushing men towards being this docile, meek sort of companion. That's just ridiculous, and unfair to our nature. 

Is it wrong to leer at women? Yes, clearly. But a look or two at a beautiful women? I mourn the day that I lose interest in doing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Singleton (May 30, 2013)

Just today I read that to women, guys looking at them is the most flattering thing. So when we single guys look at single woman that is the most powerful sign to send that we are interested. When a man in a committed relationship does that, he is on a slippery slope. The same is for married women.

As I newly single guy I train myself to look if a woman is wearing a wedding ring. If she is, I don't look. What is the point. There is plenty of (single) fish  Golden Rule is the best rule.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

hambone said:


> Is your guy ADD or ADHD?


I laughed when I read your post! Thankyou. I don't know if he is or he isn't. I think he is just a fu*k up!


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Singleton said:


> Just today I read that to women, guys looking at them is the most flattering thing. So when we single guys look at single woman that is the most powerful sign to send that we are interested. When a man in a committed relationship does that, he is on a slippery slope. The same is for married women.
> 
> As I newly single guy I train myself to look if a woman is wearing a wedding ring. If she is, I don't look. What is the point. There is plenty of (single) fish  Golden Rule is the best rule.


Hey, just because you are on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu!


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Remains said:


> I laughed when I read your post! Thankyou. I don't know if he is or he isn't. I think he is just a fu*k up!


Seriously. ADD/ADHD people are going to be "distracted" by anything that catches their eye. They are going to look... and stare at things that "distract" them... And, to a heterosexual young man full of testosterone... a pretty woman is definitely a distraction.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

And yes Singleton, as a woman, to be looked at is very flattering. It doesn't have to be a good looking man either. Young, old, compliments are flattering (and I am sure it is the same for men). Just so long as it is no nut job! I don't have many years to enjoy that left! 

But to be looked at (you know, THAT look) by a man with his woman....it has always made my flesh crawl. Edit: I generally feel like having a go at him for being disrespectful, or just giving him a punch on the nose.


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## Singleton (May 30, 2013)

hambone said:


> Hey, just because you are on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu!


I understand! In the context of this forum (Infidelity) and to extend your analogy, would you go to someone's table and check how their food looks even if it fits your diet? 

As I said, I am a single guy that was cheated on and I have no respect for men who hit on married women.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

hambone said:


> Hey, just because you are on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu!


To look at the menu would mean to study it. That doesn't sound like respectful glance to me.

I hate that saying. It just excuses taken men to leer imo. And leering gives signals of 'I am up for it, are you?', which is only one step away from the road to you know where.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Singleton said:


> I understand! In the context of this forum (Infidelity) and to extend your analogy, would you go to someone's table and check how their food looks even if it fits your diet?
> 
> As I said, I am a single guy that was cheated on and I have no respect for men who hit on married women.


Not a problem for me. I am happily married and I still look... I'm ADD and really can't help it..

The day that I will know I'm old is the day my wife and I are strolling down the beach.. and she elbows me in the ribs... and I ask, "What was that for"? and she reply's.... "Oh.... you'll see her in a minute". 

I really do have a great wife.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Remains said:


> To look at the menu would mean to study it. That doesn't sound like respectful glance to me.
> 
> I hate that saying. It just excuses taken men to leer imo. And leering gives signals of 'I am up for it, are you?', which is only one step away from the road to you know where.


You read a lot more into looking that I do.

I've been married 20+ years... and inspite of several women appearing to make themselves available, I've never once been tempted to cheat.


See, I've got a great wife...and a great marriage and I would never do anything to jeopardize it. 

I have way too much respect for my wife to do something like that to her...


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Oh, I forgot to mention also, there was the cashpoint girl on Fri, my brothers gf last week, and then Weds, which was weird, we were in his local for his friends birthday. There was a new barmaid and they both knew her name. Fine. They go in together quite regular. 

We were outside having a cigarette and she comes out for one. She is attractive. My man barely looked at her, spoke to her, anything. Now this is weird for someone who chats to everyone and also knows her name. But he made a real point of being very cold to her. 

I realise this may seem like he can't do right for doing wrong, but I am not unreasonable. He knew her, he knew her name, I was not introduced when she came out, and he looked stony faced and straight ahead, as if making a conscious effort NOT to look at her, and I can only think that was for my benefit and that he is not like that when I am not around. Course he is not! He is chatty and friendly to everyone! So it was odd that he was not to her while I was there, even though he knew the NEW barmaid well enough to say 'hello Hannah' when we arrived in there. 

It felt like that thing you do as a kid when you really like someone and so you have to pretend not to otherwise they will know! And so you behave the total opposite to your feelings.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

hambone said:


> Seriously. ADD/ADHD people are going to be "distracted" by anything that catches their eye. They are going to look... and stare at things that "distract" them... And, to a heterosexual young man full of testosterone... a pretty woman is definitely a distraction.


He is not a young man. He is 45!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> .....take several glances at a pretty woman in your vicinity while you are in a committed relationship? Not just a look and a thought and that is it. But another look etc.
> 
> Is it normal to look at a pretty woman as you walk past her waiting outside a shop, do your stuff at the cashpoint, and then take another look before you walk away?
> 
> I ask this because I don't know what is normal behaviour anymore. I have dealt with extremes of this, and this small thing bothers me immensely with the triggers it holds.


Yeah, pretty normal.

Sometimes my wife will point out women who she thinks I will find attractive. Thin and tall. Which I am not that into.

When I told her I prefer woman of her body type, I don't think she believed me!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> He is not a young man. He is 45!


I am 56. And my wife says my lack of attention is down to my ADD/ADHD. And she is a psychologist, so she should know!

I never leer, as that would be rude and might make women feel uncomfortable. But I do sneak a peak, I will admit.

My wife and her friend check chaps out. But not in any 'meaningful' way, if you see what I mean.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

hambone said:


> You read a lot more into looking that I do.
> 
> I've been married 20+ years... and inspite of several women appearing to make themselves available, I've never once been tempted to cheat.
> 
> ...


I never really had a problem with my man looking either. Then I met this man. And he had me hook line and sinker by then. 

His cheating that I was unaware of brought out a particularly nasty side to him. And he leered. He even chatted a woman up in front of me while we were on a night out together in a group. He used to stare at a particular woman we played pool with. There were several women. And yes I dumped him. 

But the begging etc, and how I had fallen for him at the beginning made me go back. With DD came a new relationship, and it has been better. Much much better. But I still don't trust him because I don't feel I have ever had the total truth. And so these subtle signs are what I question. I don't know what is normal and what is not anymore.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Chaps, cashpoint, bar maid... This thread gets anymore English, and I'm gonna have to take a lift down from my flat to smoke a *** whilst leaning against the bonnet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Haha Oh, don't be like that old bean! 

How about a home made scone and a nice cup of tea dear?


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Remains said:


> Haha Oh, don't be like that old bean!
> 
> How about a home made scone and a nice cup of tea dear?


Have a cuppa? Put the kett'l on, sounds like a piece of fried gold to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Remains said:


> He is not a young man. He is 45!


I'm in my late 50's and I'm still looking.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Remains said:


> I never really had a problem with my man looking either. Then I met this man. And he had me hook line and sinker by then.
> 
> His cheating that I was unaware of brought out a particularly nasty side to him. And he leered. He even chatted a woman up in front of me while we were on a night out together in a group. He used to stare at a particular woman we played pool with. There were several women. And yes I dumped him.
> 
> But the begging etc, and how I had fallen for him at the beginning made me go back. With DD came a new relationship, and it has been better. Much much better. But I still don't trust him because I don't feel I have ever had the total truth. And so these subtle signs are what I question. I don't know what is normal and what is not anymore.


I guess... whether or not it's normal is irrelevant. A marriage is built on respect and trust. If you can't trust him... I don't think it's going to work....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> I never really had a problem with my man looking either. Then I met this man. And he had me hook line and sinker by then.
> 
> His cheating that I was unaware of brought out a particularly nasty side to him. And he leered. He even chatted a woman up in front of me while we were on a night out together in a group. He used to stare at a particular woman we played pool with. There were several women. And yes I dumped him.
> 
> But the begging etc, and how I had fallen for him at the beginning made me go back. With DD came a new relationship, and it has been better. Much much better. But I still don't trust him because I don't feel I have ever had the total truth. And so these subtle signs are what I question. I don't know what is normal and what is not anymore.


He isn't normal. You are. You dumped him. Sorted!:smthumbup:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> Chaps, cashpoint, bar maid... This thread gets anymore English, and I'm gonna have to take a lift down from my flat to smoke a *** whilst leaning against the bonnet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can chat with a bloke about the weather, too...:rofl:


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

A while ago, there was a thread here where the men were moaning about their wives, whom they said were beautiful in their opinions, but wouldn't, simply wouldn't, believe them when they told them they were beautiful. The wives were in their fifties and were clearly feeling their age. The men seemed sincere in their attraction to their wives and said to a one that they felt terrible that their wives thought that they were giving false compliments when they flattered them.

I commented that I understood their W's feelings, being of that age, and I listed 4 or 5 things that they might try to make their wives believe in their sincerity. The very first item, which to me is the most important, was to make a big effort not to check out other women when they are with their wives.

Well....complete silence from these men on item #1. They responded to all the others, but simply wouldn't address the issue of looking at other women. I explained that when they are busy checking out younger, attractive women, their wives simply don't believe that a woman at 50+ years of age is beautiful to them. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

These guys said that they just couldn't do what I suggested. It was literally impossible. When I told my H about that thread, he laughed and just said, "You can't stop them from being men."

My H does, though, make a big effort when we are together. I can tell. If he leered or stared or looked many times, I wouldn't go out with him.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> A while ago, there was a thread here where the men were moaning about their wives, whom they said were beautiful in their opinions, but wouldn't, simply wouldn't, believe them when they told them they were beautiful. The wives were in their fifties and were clearly feeling their age. The men seemed sincere in their attraction to their wives and said to a one that they felt terrible that their wives thought that they were giving false compliments when they flattered them.
> 
> I commented that I understood their W's feelings, being of that age, and I listed 4 or 5 things that they might try to make their wives believe in their sincerity. The very first item, which to me is the most important, was to make a big effort not to check out other women when they are with their wives.
> 
> ...


Well, have you heard the story about the married couple that had been married 40 years... They were in their 60's. One evening, the husband told his wife... You know. 40 years ago, we were living in a garage apt., driving a 10 year old ole beat up car... watching TV on a little 19 inch B&W TV... working my butt of for peanut wages... but I was sleeping with a hot chick... 

Now... here it is 40 years later... I'm living in a mansion... driving a couple of Lexus', watching TV on a 102" LCD TV, I'm the owner of several companies... but I'm sleeping with an ole women... You're not holding up your end of the deal!!! Wife said... I'll tell you what... You just go out and get yourself a hot young thing to sleep with... and I'll see to it that you're living in a garage apt. driving a beat up ole car and watching TV on a 19" B&W.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Alte Dame, I ask this question because I am ready to rid myself once again of my man. I would be using this as the final.straw. There are other things, but I have come to accept them somewhat. But I cannot deal with anything remotely like this again. Not ever....with him anyway. 

So, would I be ditching him on something all men do, or is this a bit of a clue as to hidden intent? And do I have this to look forward to with any man I might subsequently meet? 

I think I could answer this myself. Seems like a no brainer. The subtle clues are not there in the cases mentioned, bit maybe a little? And all men look, (I suppose we do too. I think my bar is set too high, at the level called unnattainable....which equals disappointment) but there are varying degrees. And you put up with what is acceptable....or at least what society deems acceptable...let's face it, we would rather it didn't happen at all! I have never looked at another man in the time I have been with him (except when he was cheating and being pure nasty to me). I have never wished for anything but him!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I could easily imagine this being the straw that breaks the camel's back for you, Remains, because, if he is doing more than the reflexive look, then he is showing lack of care and respect.

I don't think that you can expect a man to not look. (My H can actually get a look in his eyes that makes him appear to suddenly be on high lust alert. This is something he can't mask or control, but, as I said, he really tries to be respectful.)

But if your SO is looking more than the kneejerk look would dictate, then it isn't wrong for you to think that he isn't showing care with you. In the worst instance, he is actively trolling for other women while you are right there.

I think that only you can know whether his looking is the normal, reflexive male response or more than that.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

hambone said:


> Well, have you heard the story about the married couple that had been married 40 years... They were in their 60's. One evening, the husband told his wife... You know. 40 years ago, we were living in a garage apt., driving a 10 year old ole beat up car... watching TV on a little 19 inch B&W TV... working my butt of for peanut wages... but I was sleeping what a hot chick...
> 
> Now... here it is 40 years later... I'm living in a mansion... driving a couple of Lexus', watching TV on a 102" LCD TV, I'm the owner of several companies... but I'm sleeping with an ole women... You're not holding up your end of the deal!!! Wife said... I'll tell you what... You just go out and get yourself a hot young thing to sleep with... and I'll see to it that you're living in a garage apt. driving a beat up ole car and watching TV on a 19" B&W.


I just read this to my H and we had a good laugh.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> I disagree. Modern wisdom seems to push men towards becoming more and more docile, towards repressing what is natural male behavior. Folks can call it stupid, or brutish, but why? Is it acceptable to call women immature if they're emotional? Just because a man is in a relationship doesn't mean he has to keep his balls in her purse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not going to read any further before I respond to this...

This is utter CRAP... There is such a thing as having respect for who you are in a relationship with...
AND for yourself...
AND for the little hotty you are ogling.

AND why the comparison to how women "might" behave?

WHAT does that have to do with how a man should be?

BE a man. A man is in control of himself. A man shows respect.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you alte dame. I know the reflexive look, it is a look at anyone, maybe a slightly longer because she is beautiful. But really, that should be it imo. I am not unreasonable. He is not honest. 

It is obvious he tries, though maybe that is also the problem. He tries to keep a lid on it rather than actually being different. And his trying is just a mask. 

It is all if's and maybe's anyway because he is not even honest in his trying or his looking. 

And I am trying to catch him in his deceit because I am sure it is there and need that to finally let the whole thing go.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Remains said:


> But I cannot deal with anything remotely like this again. Not ever....with him anyway.


It's because you can't trust him...you might never be able to.

A little back story that no one knows about me. I was in a relationship with a woman who had a jealous nature, and I was using porn, and ogling women, and really not the guy I should be. She confronted me about all of that and I worked on it - I really did. I became trustworthy - but she never worked on her jealousy issue - and she never came around to a place where she could trust me.

Ultimately we could never go anywhere. Because in her opinion if I looked (even if someone crossed my line of sight) then she was right not to trust me. And if I didn't look , well that was because I was trying too hard not to look.
I couldn't win with her and eventually I just felt like I couldn't relax and just be myself with her either.

I kind of sort of understood how your man felt when that waitress came out for a smoke.

Understand I am not blaming you at all. I'm just saying that if you can't trust him, AND he is being untrustworthy then you have a real situation.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Remains said:


> Thank you alte dame. I know the reflexive look, it is a look at anyone, maybe a slightly longer because she is beautiful. But really, that should be it imo. I am not unreasonable. He is not honest.
> 
> It is obvious he tries, though maybe that is also the problem. He tries to keep a lid on it rather than actually being different. And his trying is just a mask.
> 
> ...


Maybe you want him to fail this test to give you the concrete reason for ending things and putting you out of your misery? Perhaps it would be a relief to you?


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

sparkyjim said:


> I'm not going to read any further before I respond to this...
> 
> This is utter CRAP... There is such a thing as having respect for who you are in a relationship with...
> AND for yourself...
> ...


So a man should what? Meekly shuffle along, hands in pockets while he's staring at his feet? Screw that. How is it disrespecting myself to repress what is a normal reaction? "Oh, sorry dear, forgot that being in a relationship auto magically makes me a eunuch". And since when is briefly admiring an attractive woman disrespectful to her? Christ, I'm not talking about grabbing her ass. A man is in control of himself, and his actions. He doesn't stop being a man just because he's in a relationship. How binary is your worldview?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FLGator (Mar 26, 2013)

Normal. Like looking at a car wreck. All men do it. Most wont be disrespectful about it but almost all will look. It means nothing.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> . How binary is your worldview?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How binary is yours?

You've got every man who respects how his partner feels as some sort of wuss. Every man who is in control of his biology has his balls in a purse. How is that NOT a binary view?


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Besides the OP wasn't talking about a guy who is just briefly admiring...

It aggravates me to no end when guys use that "balls in a purse" line, or a reference to being a eunuch, or a wuss.

Look all you want I guess. It's not real sex and if it makes her feel bad then you have to deal with her when you get home.

I am NOT saying that you will not ever notice attractive women. Hell, even women notice attractive women. 

Just don't say that you have to look because you are a guy and that if you don't your "balls are in her purse."

Because it's also manly not to look.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> A man is in control of himself, and his actions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. And looking is not a problem. I try to just ignore....e.g. the three things of the last week. I did used to bring it up any time I thought it may be the case so it didn't gnaw at me, not to have a go (though obviously it upset me) but to ask if he was doing it, and to request he not, to let him know how it made me feel. But his denial would mean that there was no conversation to be had. Just me saying did you, him saying no, me saying but you were doing this and that, him saying I am imagining it pretty much. 'I wasn't, I wasn't, ....but I wasn't doing anything'. Thus any talk about it is redundant.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

sparkyjim said:


> It's because you can't trust him...you might never be able to.
> 
> A little back story that no one knows about me. I was in a relationship with a woman who had a jealous nature, and I was using porn, and ogling women, and really not the guy I should be. She confronted me about all of that and I worked on it - I really did. I became trustworthy - but she never worked on her jealousy issue - and she never came around to a place where she could trust me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your story. It is definitely food for thought, and it is exactly this situation/person that I worry about it/me becoming. I don't wish to be like that. At all. 

I have endured some very very awful stuff. Inflicted by a man who told me he loves me (oh my, that's no surprise to any reading this), and he has done a lot of actions that put my mind at ease, however the emotional side is failing slightly....which is actually a major issue. The honesty. And without that it is difficult to trust his words. And without trust, there is nothing.

I trusted his word more after DD (before I put together all the things that did not add up) than I do now. I thought that would be the watershed moment at the time, but it wasn't. It was just the beginning of a whole new set of problems. He continued to gaslight me after DD. And that is where the real issues began. And continue.

I do think I have become like that in some ways. But all are a direct result of the continued lies. Each thing that came out making it more difficult to trust. The splits we had which resulted in him giving what I needed and asked for...the only way I got those things (basic R needs) was to split with him. 

I do think he feels like that though, how you describe. But he has done a ton more than ogle at a few women to get us to this point. That is pretty minor, very minor, stuff compared to all the other things.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Maybe you want him to fail this test to give you the concrete reason for ending things and putting you out of your misery? Perhaps it would be a relief to you?


I hoped the looking thing was real, that he had changed. I am still undecided, hence the question. What I see with him is borderline ok. And so if he is only borderline when I am there, occasionally crossing just a tiny bit over the line, what is he like when I am not? The unanswerable question! 

As for him lying, yes, I do think I will catch him in one. I don't want that, but because I feel his honesty has been far from real, I am pretty sure I will catch one. He is good though, very good! I feel he tries very hard but this behaviour is too ingrained. Currently he is pretty truthful, but he has never been truthful about all that went on with OW, when I say all, his feelings about her. And that is tough. And I have never seen any real effort or wish to change (not on an emotional level anyway. His actions have changed but only by force - me dumping him), other than him saying 'I have changed' and that being it. I don't see any other behaviours (e.g. brutal honesty, telling me things I don't already know, offering things on an emotional level...blimey, even a wish to talk knowing that I need to talk!) that indicate any real, true, to the core change.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I also don't think I have had any real remorse. Just words.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I agree that the looking at other women is a natural thing that we as women deal with in as healthy a way as possible when we are working on a foundation of trust. When the trust is eroded, it becomes just one more 'lie.'

For me, the balance gets tipped with the trust issue. When someone lies and lies & the hurt and outrage over that wars with my feelings of love for the person, my positive feelings for the person eventually 'click' off. When this happens, it's because I know that I truly cannot trust this person & the lack of trust trumps any love I feel.

I'm wondering if you are trying to tip the balance so that you don't have to live like this anymore.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Remains said:


> What I see with him is borderline ok. And so if he is only borderline when I am there, occasionally crossing just a tiny bit over the line, what is he like when I am not? The unanswerable question!


Looking is normal (for both sexes). The problem is not the look, but it is your lack off trust (and I can understand why). You don't feel that he behaves the same when not with you. If he behaves in a way that is suspect with you, you automatically suspect that he behaves differently without you (understandable as well). I have the same issue with my wife and think that due to her past behavior, she is different when not with me. We have kids, and nobody to watch them, so we never go out when not together or as a family, but I can see how I suspect her when she goes out.

Is the "looking" different than when she hugs people for greetings? SHe has always done it, since she was little, but I can't help but think that it means more now (yes, I am paranoid and sometimes do the "looking" just as a way to get back at her, so this extra glance might be the case for yours as well?).


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Alte Dame, you have a wonderful way with words. 

Your last post in every part was very true for me.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Remains said:


> Exactly. And looking is not a problem. I try to just ignore....e.g. the three things of the last week. I did used to bring it up any time I thought it may be the case so it didn't gnaw at me, not to have a go (though obviously it upset me) but to ask if he was doing it, and to request he not, to let him know how it made me feel. But his denial would mean that there was no conversation to be had. Just me saying did you, him saying no, me saying but you were doing this and that, him saying I am imagining it pretty much. 'I wasn't, I wasn't, ....but I wasn't doing anything'. Thus any talk about it is redundant.


I wish I could give you a good shot of testosterone...

And then, I'd ask you to please try to control yourself. It's not that easy for men with high testosterone levels.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Squeakr, I don't know if I have misread....but I dont know what the extra glance would be getting me back for.

Unless he is testing me?! But the night with my brother, that certainly wasn't a test. He was far too drunk to be functioning on that level. 

I have put my feelings out there about him drinking too much. He is an awful drunk. I think he took them on board....kind of!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Remains said:


> Is it your opinion that it is ok for a man in a serious relationship to repeatedly glance at an attractive woman? That it is normal?


If she's hot enough.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

hambone said:


> I wish I could give you a good shot of testosterone...
> 
> And then, I'd ask you to please try to control yourself. It's not that easy for men with high testosterone levels.


I disagree with this statement.

It reminds me of an acquaintance I used to have whom insisted fighting on a Saturday night was a result of being a "real man" and that he couldn't control it.

I really don't want Remains to be thinking that a "real man" "has to" ogle women.

A man can control his impulses. It is, after all, what sets us apart from the animals. 

"Like weasaling. Weasaling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals...except the weasels"


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

hambone said:


> I wish I could give you a good shot of testosterone...
> 
> And then, I'd ask you to please try to control yourself. It's not that easy for men with high testosterone levels.


 I will try. And yes, I think he does have high testosterone levels....at least where sex is concerned. I am not sure where else I should be looking to gauge it. 

I have a feeling I have a shot or 2 of testosterone already! 

P.s. Just so I am clear, are you still of this opinion considering what I have written about all he has done? 

Hmm I guess you probably have read the thread! And I suppose he does try. Quite a lot really now. Maybe I should give him more credit....maybe it is my own insecurities. But.....there is always a but! And always one that shows the opposite to whichever thought I am having. 

It is a minefield of uncertainty and confusion.

Edit: I would certainly prefer a man (even more so when talking of one that has cheated in such a cruel way) with Chris's attitude on my arm than your attitude ham. I would imagine your attitude, particularly after cheating, would drive me mad and a far quicker route to singledom. And if no cheating was involved...I think I would feel belittled on a regular basis. 

However, I do take your point. Only because he is not overtly looking, just borderline and sometimes a little over the line.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> If she's hot enough.


Gotta put a leash on your rationalization hamster!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> If she's hot enough.


I was hoping you might answer this qu mach!

That wasn't really the answer I was expecting tho! I will ignore your hint/brick of sarcasm or ...... I suppose it doesn't matter what the 'or' is. 

Trying to think of a witty retort but what little wit I have is failing me.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Shoot - I know my H checks out other women. He's pretty discreet and not 'leering' or going on about it. I've even been known to point out someone if he's happened to miss her.

We have a standard joke for seeing a lot of flesh where he'll tell me he thinks he owes her a dollar if there's a lot of skin on display.

He's human - of course he's gonna notice. I notice a hot woman for that matter. 

Now, acting on that - not acceptable. Looking - let him look. I know who he's having sex with and coming home to every night.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Dig, please give me your post on how I should be lifting weights and drinking celery....or something like that! Am I too beta? Should I be slapping him every time he looks (at anyone except me)?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Remains said:


> Dig, please give me your post on how I should be lifting weights and drinking celery....or something like that! Am I too beta? Should I be slapping him every time he looks (at anyone except me)?


I'm only gonna repost this cuz you need it. Don't blame the messenger.

You need to go download "No More Makin' Sammiches" by Kay I. Amdum. You need to read every word 5x and then read it again. You need to eat jello pudding pops and understand that the digestive system is what is making him do this. It's alllllll about the digestive system and don't think it's not. The rationalization kangaroo is bouncing up and down up and down and you don't even have a f'ng pogo stick, woman!

What's your body like? You need to strive for the Golden Ratio 36-25-36 if you want to up your sexy rank. If you aren't doing this, then you need to start now. Go buy some dumbells and horseshoes immediately at Walmart and the feed store. These will help build the breasts that you need.

Next, you need to go buy a moped or if money is no object then a Vespa. Either way, you need to be on two wheels styling it like there's no tomorrow. That way you can grab your helmet...strut to the door and say, "I'm goin for a ride, b!tch."

THAT

is how ya do it.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

TCS, I agree with you, and it can be lighthearted when there is banter about it, when it is openly talked about. 

But wasn't it you that cheated? How would he feel if you looked repeatedly at a man sat opposite you for the duration you were there? Or did a double take while walking down the street? It kind of changes the meaning for it somewhat (especially if you had been totally brazen in your ****tish behaviour (mine was brazen in his) in front of him through the cheating period)...especially if after the looking/glancing you denied doing it and made out he was paranoid when he asked you if that was what you were doing with a view to asking not to disrespect him. No?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I'm only gonna repost this cuz you need it. Don't blame the messenger.
> 
> You need to go download "No More Makin' Sammiches" by Kay I. Amdum. You need to read every word 5x and then read it again. You need to eat jello pudding pops and understand that the digestive system is what is making him do this. It's alllllll about the digestive system and don't think it's not. The rationalization kangaroo is bouncing up and down up and down and you don't even have a f'ng pogo stick, woman!
> 
> ...


I EFFING LOVE THIS! 

Oh how I laugh and laugh and laugh. Thank you Dig!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I can, on occasion, come up with a good post.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Remains said:


> TCS, I agree with you, and it can be lighthearted when there is banter about it, when it is openly talked about.
> 
> But wasn't it you that cheated? How would he feel if you looked repeatedly at a man sat opposite you for the duration you were there? Or did a double take while walking down the street? It kind of changes the meaning for it somewhat (especially if you had been totally brazen in your ****tish behaviour (mine was brazen in his) in front of him through the cheating period)...especially if after the looking/glancing you denied doing it and made out he was paranoid when he asked you if that was what you were doing with a view to asking not to disrespect him. No?


I was the WS, yes. I would totally agree that if it were excessive, either of us would have an issue with it. (I wouldn't say a double take is excessive - there are times when you're not really sure you saw what you did). It's one thing to look or notice and it's another to just continue on looking for a longer period of time.

That stated, I wouldn't relegate that disrespect just to the spouse who's been unfaithful. It's plain rude to the person they're staring at and their partner to do so. 

Maybe the difference is the level of communication. We talk about what we're seeing. 'Check out that guy/girl over there. Holy mackerel! They keep looking over here' and that sort of thing. 

So the denial combined with previous deceit would make it hard to deal with in a troubled relationship.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Haha oh dear, it just has to be read again, 5X and then again. I am crying!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Gotta put a leash on your rationalization hamster!


My wife can tell I'm looking at a woman even if my head is looking straight ahead and I'm wearing shades. Seriously. She's done it many times. Another thing she does is scan a room and already knows which women are my "type", before I've even settled down. Then she'll wait patiently until I finally look around and do a double-take on one of them so she can pounce. Her usual follow-up is "I'd do her." I used to think she was kidding, I'm not so sure anymore.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I can, on occasion, come up with a good post.


That's right; "The Golden Ratio" never fails. Work it in as often as possible.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> My wife can tell I'm looking at a woman even if my head is looking straight ahead and I'm wearing shades. Seriously. She's done it many times. Another thing she does is scan a room and already knows which women are my "type", before I've even settled down. Then she'll wait patiently until I finally look around and do a double-take on one of them so she can pounce. Her usual follow-up is "I'd do her." I used to think she was kidding, I'm not so sure anymore.


Regret is much the same way. I'm not an ass about it. I look and if it warrants, I will make a comment. Yesterday, while we were at our spot another chick came in. F'ng drunk and tweaking. You're damn straight I looked and made a comment while trying not to spit out my drink!! We laughed for a good hour at that broad.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Remains said:


> He is not a young man. He is 45!


Hey I wish I was 45 again!

I remember when my 90 year old Grampa told me "There comes a time when you have to accept that you're not 75 any more." :rofl:

Seriously though, my WW can do what Mach's wife does, only she doesn't joke about it. Yeah, SHE cheated and SHE gets offended.... especially if it's an Asian woman (she thinks that's my hangup). The other day we passed one on the way out of the store and it ruined our entire weekend. She was furious, even though I did NOTHING like what you are describing. I saw, noticed, but didn't LOOK and didn't OGLE or double-take. Nothing of the sort. So yeah, there are people who are super sensitive about that kind of thing. I wouldn't want her doing that to me, although I'm not going to cry about it if she does. Just give/get mutual respect.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Since i became a BS in jan. i've had an issue not looking. I look at nearly every woman i see. Sometimes I catch myself and stop. 

I don't feel guilty about it. But I do feel like I have more testosterone (I'm in way better shape physically so that's entirely possible.) 

On the other hand if my FWW looked at men infront of me I'd leave her there. Seriously.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Remains said:


> TCS, I agree with you, and it can be lighthearted when there is banter about it, when it is openly talked about.
> 
> But wasn't it you that cheated? How would he feel if you looked repeatedly at a man sat opposite you for the duration you were there? Or did a double take while walking down the street? It kind of changes the meaning for it somewhat (especially if you had been totally brazen in your ****tish behaviour (mine was brazen in his) in front of him through the cheating period)...especially if after the looking/glancing you denied doing it and made out he was paranoid when he asked you if that was what you were doing with a view to asking not to disrespect him. No?


Not much time ago there was a TAM member, a couple actually, who's wife had the habit of staring at men crotches in addition to very poor boundaires and flirty attutide.
That was a painful thread to read.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I disagree with this statement.
> 
> It reminds me of an acquaintance I used to have whom insisted fighting on a Saturday night was a result of being a "real man" and that he couldn't control it.
> 
> ...


Sound like maybe you need a couple of shots of testosterone. Every heard of "Roid Rage"? Believe me... take a couple of good shots of testosterone and all you'll think about is sex. And it does make men more aggressive. 

People I know who hang out with female body builders tell me how sexually aggressive they are.

And some people just like to fight on the weekend. That's a personal choice. 

Know how to tell if a person had a high testosterone level when they were going through puberty? The lower their voices... the higher the testosterone levels.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Remains said:


> I will try. And yes, I think he does have high testosterone levels....at least where sex is concerned. I am not sure where else I should be looking to gauge it.
> 
> I have a feeling I have a shot or 2 of testosterone already!
> 
> ...


I must confess that I did not read all the thread. 

Some men are going to cheat no matter what. You can be the perfect wife... and some men are just going to cheat.

And, I'll bet.. those guys have a higher than average testosterone level. 

Personally, my T levels are lower than average... now and I'm not near the horndog I used to be. I've taken the T shots and trust me... my focus shifts... I feel like I'm 17 again. But alas, it runs my hemoglobin levels too high...


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Why is this thread in the CWI subforum?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Remains said:


> He doesn't gawk anymore. Or re-look in an obvious fashion. As above, I am hyper sensitive.
> 
> I think he does pretend though. And that IS the problem. He hasn't 'changed' like he insists he has. He just hides it better. A lot better.
> 
> I feel that what is going on is very subtle and in any normal situation wouldn't really be a problem. But given what has gone on, this isn't a normal situation. And this is just a subtle indication (is it? Hence the question.) that things with him are not truly changed or different. He just hides it better and keeps a tighter lid on it.


You don't have a problem with 'glances' and the 'secrecy'. You have a problem with him being a man. You have a problem with him wanting ANY other girl in any way, even in a rather simple mental fantasy sort of way.

Men look. Now, OBVIOUSLY your guy did it in a blatantly disrespectful fashion in the past. Okay...you are allowed to call him on that. You DID call him on that. And because he cared about your feelings, *he has changed his behavior.*

But not content with him doing so in a respectful fashion which even you admit you have a hard time catching him at (except when drunk), you are now struggling to catch him and setting him up for failure by purposefully manuvering so he can look...for what?

So you can shake your finger at him and say 'Ah HA! You ARE still scum!'?

So the question really is 'do you want to continue to be in a relationship with this fellow?' Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to either dump him, or continue to hold the moral high ground so you can control the relationship. Maybe continue to punish him for past crimes.

There are several ways to handle this. You seem to be working on the 'accumulate a lot of bitterness and resentment' method. Instead when you NATURALLY catch him (instead of hunting for his 'transgressions' of looking at a pretty object), you just gently grab his chin and move his gaze back to you, saying in an amused fashion "I'm right here."

Or you could say 'Nah...she's not hot at all. Look at THAT one over there...'. This will be a bit embarassing to him and he will get the message.

He is not looking to form a relationship with these girls. He is not seeking to bond with them. (He might want them to want him...but who doesn't want to be wanted?) It is as simple as 'Atuk like zuum zuums.'


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Singleton said:


> I understand! In the context of this forum (Infidelity) and to extend your analogy, would you go to someone's table and check how their food looks even if it fits your diet?
> 
> As I said, I am a single guy that was cheated on and I have no respect for men who hit on married women.


No, this is him looking at the dishes on someone else's table. She is asking him what the hell is wrong with what he is eating?

And there is nothing wrong with what is on his plate. He wonders about other food even if he doesn't order.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> Thanks for your story. It is definitely food for thought, and it is exactly this situation/person that I worry about it/me becoming. I don't wish to be like that. At all.
> 
> I have endured some very very awful stuff. Inflicted by a man who told me he loves me (oh my, that's no surprise to any reading this), and he has done a lot of actions that put my mind at ease, however the emotional side is failing slightly....which is actually a major issue. The honesty. And without that it is difficult to trust his words. And without trust, there is nothing.
> 
> ...


Yep. Right where they began. What a twit he is for doing this!


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Remains said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention also, there was the cashpoint girl on Fri, my brothers gf last week, and then Weds, which was weird, we were in his local for his friends birthday. There was a new barmaid and they both knew her name. Fine. They go in together quite regular.
> 
> We were outside having a cigarette and she comes out for one. She is attractive. My man barely looked at her, spoke to her, anything. Now this is weird for someone who chats to everyone and also knows her name. But he made a real point of being very cold to her.
> 
> ...





Remains said:


> He is not a young man. He is 45!


Well, I am 45. I look. The question was his motive. Is he trying to 'secretly lull you into a sense of security, so he can come back when you aren't around and full bore chat her up, so on his next 'business trip' he can whisk her off her feet and have connubile bliss in a Motel 6....or is his GF/wife such a controlling and unreasonable person that if he so much as says 'hi' she goes ballistic and it's a cold day in the bedroom.

BTW, these are not mutually exclusive.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

sparkyjim said:


> I'm not going to read any further before I respond to this...
> 
> This is utter CRAP... There is such a thing as having respect for who you are in a relationship with...
> AND for yourself...
> ...


And she is complaining about looks SHE can barely detect. Make sure you read the whole post and get off your high horse.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think this is an issue where the gender divide has to be recognized in order to discuss it with any real meaning.

Women know that men naturally look. Some men regularly go much further than looking; they ogle, stare, make comments or advances. Women know these things.

Even in a healthy, trusting relationship, this looking can hurt. It's just one of those things that women deal with in much the way that men deal with female-specific behavior that can bother or hurt them but doesn't really threaten a relationship. So, I don't really like the way my H will notice attractive women, but I know it's a natural thing and that I can't expect him to suddenly cash in his Y chromosome, so I deal. As I get older, it actually does hurt more, since it truly can make me feel like chopped liver. My H being who he is is sensitive to that and I can tell that he makes a special effort to keep focused on me when we are out. I certainly appreciate this.

If trust is an issue, though, as it clearly is with Remains, the little pang of hurt that comes with this male behavior turns into just one more thing to add to the pile of hurtful things to be endured.

So, I agree that women need to accept that men will noticeably notice other women around them, but men need to accept that women can be hurt by this. It's a two-way street and when someone like Remains' SO has done so much to damage trust, he will have to deal with even small things like this being triggers for her.

(I will say again that I suspect that Remains would actually be relieved to have a single concrete reason right now to say that her relationship is over. If she decides this because of his current behavior, she won't have to psychologically blame herself for the breakup. Having someone else's actions force you into something that you don't have the strength to do is often something we subconsciously wish for.)


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Yeah ^^^^ this....


An incredibly excellent post - with understanding for both sides of the coin.

You write well...


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> Well, I am 45. I look. The question was his motive. Is he trying to 'secretly lull you into a sense of security, so he can come back when you aren't around and full bore chat her up, so on his next 'business trip' he can whisk her off her feet and have connubile bliss in a Motel 6....or is his GF/wife such a controlling and unreasonable person that if he so much as says 'hi' she goes ballistic and it's a cold day in the bedroom.
> 
> BTW, these are not mutually exclusive.


The first example is what worries me. At least the bit of chatting her up when I am not around. I could imagine him doing that, especially if we have had a fall out and if he is having a drink.

The second example is far from true.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> And she is complaining about looks SHE can barely detect. Make sure you read the whole post and get off your high horse.


I wouldn't go as far as barely detect. I would say it is more subtle but fairly obvious. 

He looks around the room A LOT more if there is a pretty woman there, and he is much less affectionate to me, practically cold sometimes, in this given situation, while when there is no pretty woman around he is very affectionate.

This triggers me massively given his past behaviour.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> (I will say again that I suspect that Remains would actually be relieved to have a single concrete reason right now to say that her relationship is over. If she decides this because of his current behavior, she won't have to psychologically blame herself for the breakup. Having someone else's actions force you into something that you don't have the strength to do is often something we subconsciously wish for.)


I would say this is quite true. I would say though that 'not having the strength to do' is based on the fact of how much I love him, how well we get on, we are great together, he is a brilliant partner (infidelity aside), and so it is to remove the difficulty of missing him, the what if's and maybe's, the uncertainty, and knowing I have made the right decision in ridding myself of the love of my life. 

This is something I continually question and swing both ways in wanting him (accepting all he is) and getting rid of him (not accepting a relationship with dishonesty and the same issues that are within him (non existent boundaries and lack of moral character that allows him to cake eat and manipulate people who love him while pretending to love them) and that he has never put in REAL effort to change).


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Well, having finished the whole post, all I can say is that you have been cut too deeply.

From what you are saying, your gut doesn't trust that he is changed...but as a rational human being, you can't just say 'I no longer trust this person, even though there are X, Y, and Z excellent reasons to continue this relationship.'

So now you are looking for a reason. This is what you have picked so far because it's what you can find.

I do NOT blame you for feeling this way. He has hurt you and you do not feel that he is doing what is necessary to win back trust.

(here is a huge caveat: NO BS that I have heard here has ever said that they 'got enough remorse' from their WS. They always feel 'cheated' of real regret. So using this 'lack' as a metric is a bit nonsensical because emotionally, there is a subgroup of zero who ever 'got enough back'. This is not to say that he can neglect his reparations...just that he could quit drinking, never glance at another woman, and give daily feet massages and I feel, as a human being, you'll still feel cheated because he broke the magic of the relationship)

So...you are looking for a way out that you can explain to him. This is pretty weak tea, IMO.

I think you should gird your loins, and just beard the lion, telling him "I am done." Cause you believe your gut. 

I can tell you this: you can sit there in the relationship and continue to suffer your doubts...and you will regret that choice. And you can dump him tomorrow and for the rest of your life look back at all the things he did to make things right and regret throwing it all away on a gut check.

There is no 'good' or 'clean' answer here. You will regret either one. But you need to pick the one you can live with. Since this is such a weak reason, you are desperate to leave.

But I'm just a guy on the internet who is waiting for a pizza. Don't go by what I say.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Ohhh...I know what I'm having for lunch now!


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

As others have said, its a natural reaction and I don't agree that it should be stifled, as long as its just a look.

The problem is where there has been infidelity and a trust issue. In those circumstances, it would be wise for the person to avoid such looks, purely from a viewpoint of respect and not upsetting their partner.

But where such issues don't exist, I don't see the harm. And I think glances at a pretty woman (no eye contact) don't do any damage. I would certainly not baulk if a female partner of mine did a double take when they see a 'hot' male walk past...besides, with them it would be the same as myself, in that the kind of people who make us 'double-take' are likely to be out of our league to actually do anything with. In fact, I'd probably be more worried if they are double-taking someone with a beer belly and BO!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Remains said:


> He looks around the room A LOT more if there is a pretty woman there, and he is much less affectionate to me, practically cold sometimes, in this given situation, while when there is no pretty woman around he is very affectionate.


This would bother me a lot. This is, to me, both more than the 'noticing' look that a woman has to deal with, and disrespectful to you. I would read this behavior as signaling to the woman he is looking at that he is available.

You've listed his good attributes, but his infidelity and your belief that he hasn't changed eat away at your resolve to stay in the relationship.

I can tell you, Remains, that it's exactly this lack of trust that boded very ill for me when I was younger and with men who cheated. I remember two of them very clearly - both were LTR's. What I learned about myself is that I personally make a very clear subconscious distinction between a bf/gf relationship and a marital relationship. I stayed with both of these men through several years of cheating because I had all the conflicting feelings you had. (I could have been you talking.)

Each of these men proposed marriage. I was completely astounded, both by the proposals and by my reaction. I had zero interest in marrying either one of them. This was because I didn't trust them and would never get myself into a marriage with someone I already knew could so easily lie to me.

I realized that the cheating had relegated these relationships to the category of 'temporary' because of the lack of trust, even though my feelings of attachment in each case were very strong.

I don't know if you make the same distinction between non-marital relationship and marriage that I make. I actually surprised myself because I didn't realize how reflexive my own feelings were until those proposals happened.

If you do make this distinction, ask yourself if you would ever marry this man. I'm hoping the answer would be 'no.'


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

sparkyjim said:


> Yeah ^^^^ this....
> 
> 
> An incredibly excellent post - with understanding for both sides of the coin.
> ...


(Thank you, sparkyjim. You're very kind to say that.)


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I really wouldn't worry about it too much. As long as he isn't ignoring you to look around the room. I have ADHD though so I really can't help looking around a room. It is just how my brain is wired. I can't speak for him though. However there is nothing that should ever keep you from doing you due diligence such as checking phone records and the facebook account. If he has a problem with it then he is likely hiding something.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

hambone said:


> People I know who hang out with female body builders tell me how sexually aggressive they are.


Yes. They are insatiable and all filters and inhibitions are removed while cycling. Group sex is the new normal. The personality change and some of the physical changes become permanent after a while.




hambone said:


> Know how to tell if a person had a high testosterone level when they were going through puberty? The lower their voices... the higher the testosterone levels.


Sort of. A better way is to look at the beards on the 13 year olds. You can tell girls and guys who are high T by looking at ring finger length relative to the forefinger.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Ohhh...I know what I'm having for lunch now!


Sushi?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Sushi?


Nahh...she's working 

I actually contemplated the pizza. Decided instead to get a spicy Italian mix sammich.

Spicy Italian. As if there's any other kind!


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm guilty on rare occasion, but would never take it beyond sneaking a peek and repeat. Eye contact or engaging in a convo would be a no-no.
Red headed petite waitress was just glowing...pink in the cheeks...smiling....I had to sneak a peek whenever I could.
One of my older buddies and his wife have a pact, they can both "look at the menu but don't place an order".


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

badcompany said:


> One of my older buddies and his wife have a pact, they can both "look at the menu but don't place an order".


If it was 25 years ago, knowing what I know now about how my wife has minimized, I'd try to get her to share some pie with me. Especially since she was the one pointing out the tasty pieces.

ETA: kidding aside, we've had a mostly drama free marriage, so I probably wouldn't change too much.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Remains said:


> Squeakr, I don't know if I have misread....but I dont know what the extra glance would be getting me back for.
> 
> Unless he is testing me?! But the night with my brother, that certainly wasn't a test. He was far too drunk to be functioning on that level.
> 
> I have put my feelings out there about him drinking too much. He is an awful drunk. I think he took them on board....kind of!


It could be a test or just a way to get back at you for what he perceives as controlling behavior and unacceptance of him and his actions. I don't judge you for wanting to control, I do it myself with my wife, but when you are an adult and have been doing something "innocent" for so long and are now scrutinized for the same actions, this could be a way to get back and cause more discontent that will be claimed to be unfounded by the WS (just saying this may be how he is thinking as he probably thinks he is doing nothing wrong and has changed his ways but is not being given the benefit of the doubt).


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Squeakr, oh I can tell you that it is far from 'innocent all his life'! Far from it! He became an awful letch when he started screwing his ex behind my back. He became awful in almost every way. Practically tried to get off with one woman right in front of me! I'm surprised he didn't ask for her number and try to set up a date! Sat there with me unable to take his eyes off another, and another. Oh he was bad. And then when I dumped him he went on about some sh*t about oh how his heart was breaking without me. Inundated with texts and phone calls. Totally full of it. What really made it totally sh*t was when I asked him if he letched on women when he was going out with his ex (that he had been screwing behind my back, and before I found out) whilst in her company. 'God no' he exclaimed. 'She would have cut my balls off'. I don't think about this very often, but right now, just writing it, it makes me very angry. Trigger!

And yes, of course he changed. Gradually. And totally....kind of. Never been out with someone who goes so great with me and who I love every bit of him as much as I do! 

I wouldn't say I am looking for a reason to ditch him. More like looking for reasons to stay. And I really want to find them. 

Actually, I think those 2 statements mean the same thing!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I wasn't inferring that he was innocent or everything he was doing was correct, just that when there is something "innocent" that you have been doing for years (for example, in this case could be just taking a walk around the block each night to get exercise) is now scrutinized as something more than what it is (say he now is getting accused of trolling for girls, instead of walking for exercise) that it can cause one to do it as a way to get back! That is all I was saying (not knowing either of you, I can;t make judgment on actions or intentions, just that it may be taken differently.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Long post! Venting. And I am done!

Well, I was always sure he was lying to me about things that went on while cheating. There were certain things that didn't ever make sense, and his reactions if I brought these up were very defensive, manipulative. I had come to accept I would never know these things but sure this behaviour was done with. And I remained on high alert to catch any lies because if there were any, that spelled the end. He knew this.

Just as if there was any tarty behaviour, giving women any 'come on' eyes, that was also the end (obviously not just a look or 2), hence this thread looking for opinions. 

So, the lies. I figured if I ask things in certain ways (rather than a yes/no question, more of a leading question that gave the impression I know, or just asking him to explain again a scenario) then I would uncover more truths at some point. 

It is difficult to remember the lies, because one leads to another and compounds the problem....'What have we spoke about, what have I told her'....is why he hates to speak about it so much. The more he speaks, the more he has to lie, and the more chance of being found out. 

And any more lies signal the end.

I haven't brought 'it' up for some time, though we have spoke about a few small details here and there, and there is an issue that has bugged me for ages, amongst many.

I finally blew up on it Tuesday, following a couple of 'off the radar' evenings after fall outs. I could take it no more, so we had a good long chat, and we got around to the issue that has bugged me: that when she moved, before DD, she told him where she moved to and he can remember her telling him where, what road, what number. But has now completely forgotten the name of the road or which number. It took a year just to get out of him that he knew which area she moved to! That just came out by accident one day! I don't believe for one minute he has no clue, has forgotten, other than the area, as to where she lives. I have asked him often where she lives now and that I don't believe him that he does not know having forgotten completely the road name and number.

So, my leading question was (after DD he told me 'where she lived' which had been at her mother's and I went and paid her a visit 2 months post DD, and she was there. She or her mum told me I was lucky I found her as she had moved) 'how could you send me to the wrong house, how could you do that to me, how could you be protecting her instead of looking after me after all you did and all you said about loving me' with a pained look on my face. He avoided the question, avoided, avoided, said he didn't know, said 'she was there wasn't she', avoided answering the actual question, I said how could you do that to me knowing what I was going through, he said he didn't think it was good for me to go and see her! 

Again he lies...if I had accepted his answers, not knowing he was manipulating his answers to avoid the question, if I hadn't have pushed, I would have not found the information out. That he lies to me 'for my own good!' = to save his lying ass.

Well, one lie too many post DD. Yes, that wasn't the 1st, there were lies about porn, there was the lies on not knowing even vaguely where she had moved to, and then knowing the area, the lies about requesting another f*ck 3-4 months before DD which only came out 1 year post DD and even then only after a 2 month split (this lie was forced by the split because I knew there was more he wasn't telling me and I couldn't live with that, even then, I don't believe that this request was all it was, no way!)....there is no doubt anymore. 

I thought he was finally 'getting it', and truly I think he was. I think he was making good efforts. But still, if we fell out he would go off the radar, and I would be left not knowing what he up to. That lack of effort ruined all the effort he did make when things were good. He would do that knowing I would think the worst. He did start letting me know what he was doing and not blocking his gps on our fall outs, knowing I could not live with that, but then recently he went off the radar again...breaking his last promises and ruining again the effort he had made. He only has to do this once every few months to get his 'fix', and that is one time too many for me.

So I got the uncovering of another lie: knowing she had moved before DD, and sending me knowingly to the wrong house -he told me he couldn't remember when she told him, either when he saw her 4 months before DD when he requested the f*ck or 3 months after DD which was the next time he saw her and was also 1-2 months following me visiting her. That was on Tuesday. I had the 'I am done' chat with him yesterday. And yes, I am done.

Just having a vent. I an pissed off! But I am also happy. He has wasted enough of my time and my emotional energy. And now I know for sure that there will never be a safe relationship with him, and that I will always feel uneasy. Because I cannot trust him. And I cannot trust his word. I will never know if he is giving me truth, or just what he wants me to hear.

As a side note, and more relevant to the subject of this thread, after our chat to finish the relationship, he went off and got hammered at my local (not going to the pub alone was one of my requirements to stay with him, as was not getting hammered any more...only a few pints at most, ever). His gps went off. I kept checking on him to see if he had gone home and it stayed registered at my house. I don't want to check on him, am done with having my head done in. I knew he was at the pub. Why else for the frozen gps. So I texted him to ask him to remove me from everything, to change all his passwords so I can no longer access his stuff. No answer. Texted him is he at pub. No answer. Called him. 

He couldn't string a sentence together and ended up with a woman taking the phone, telling me she was a friend of his colleague, and he was very drunk and needed to go home. Now this colleague (I thought maybe I heard stuff about me - laughing about *bf's name* and his gf calling him, but I can't be sure), he apparently can't stand her. But he could have been with several colleagues....why the stranger talking though! I asked her if she would mind just telling him to go home, and tell him to come to my house. She tried, he wouldn't. Too drunk! (He is a terrible drunk, can't take it at all, becomes totally off the wall. Nonsensical. I worry about him when he is that drunk, he is not safe. He could have died one night in the snow had I not gone out and looked for him. Is why my requirement was for him to not get drunk. Obviously if he is so out of control, this is also a problem given his cheating).

3 phone calls later, talking to this woman for 2 of them, I drive down and fetch him. He is sat with this woman colleague that he 'can't stand' and with her 2 friends! (I have never liked the vibes I get from this colleague, she seems full of herself and very flirty with men, tries to be 'cool' and seems aloof. I have met her several times but she ignores me like I have never met her! She seems like a woman who likes men a lot, likes the attention, and sees other women as a threat. She is also married with 2 kids).

When I arrive, the woman I spoke to on the phone said hello and introduced herself, I said hello and thanks for helping me out. I said she should have been very firm with him, she said she was. I said sorry, thanks, and shovelled him out of there and into the car. 

The colleague, she wouldn't look at me, never said hello, never said anything! She left her friend to sort out her drunken colleague and talking to her colleague's gf, and did NOTHING to help her drunken colleague get home! 

Hmmmm 

Vent.

BTW, he slept on the sofa. I refused to kiss him, refused to let him in my bed. And I am still done! 

I hope the relief remains.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Funny, there is not the sad empty like other times. The missing is slightly building up, but not hollow and sad. Tomorrow is another day though!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm sorry Remains. It sucks that he can't see to get out of his own way to fix things.

There will be some days that are easier than others. The hard days will become fewer and further between.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I had a relationship very much like this once. We had many Ddays and I broke up with him several times. It took a few years to be truly done, but I eventually got there, as will you. So, I suppose what I'm saying is that you probably have a way to go yet, given how you are talking about him.

For me, it was almost an out of body experience once his cheating tipped the trust balance. I just watched myself grow less attached and less in love. When he sat me down and gravely declared his love & desire to marry me, I was incredulous. By that point, he had virtually assured that I would never consider marrying him. I told him I would never marry someone I would never trust & that was the end of that. I didn't look back.

I know you say that your bf is the love of your life, but truly, Remains, someone who really loves you doesn't play these games. I wish you some peace of mind. I'm sure you will eventually get to that place.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm sorry it came to this, but maybe it was inevitable given who he is (and isn't).

Stay strong. Keep posting.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks guys, and yes, it has always been inevitable I think. Only an earthquake of 8.9 magnitude could make any great shakes now. 

And AD, I have had to keep telling myself he doesn't love me, never has, at least not in any meaningful way and not like I love him. He has always played these games. I have felt hopeful at times but more often than not, hopeless. Such a waste of time. 

He was a great support with all the difficulties in the other areas of my life though. Teenage kids. Ass hole ex. Need I say more. I will miss his loving support. But not the lies that consume the time of his cheating and the games he plays to avoid facing them. That will never make a good relationship.


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## scorp79 (Apr 25, 2013)

IMO if you give a damn about the person you are with you won't disrespect him/her by noticeably checking out another woman.

Nothing worse than the other woman knowing you are checking her out, she see's you with a partner then she naturally looks at the partner. Your partner catches on and feels hurt. Not something you do to some one you love. 

This occurred with my ex at the end of our relationship, made me feel like sh.t.

But that's IMO every one and every relationship is different.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Remains said:


> And AD, I have had to keep telling myself he doesn't love me, never has, at least not in any meaningful way and not like I love him.


Love means different things to different people. His definition of love just may be very different from yours. Some people love very selfishly; some are relatively selfless. One of the things I have always stopped myself from saying to my H is, "If you really loved me, you would......", because who am I to decide how he feels?

For me the point is that your SO can't love you the way you need to be loved. And you deserve that kind of love, just like anyone else. Why shouldn't you have that? I hope that you do find it for yourself.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks AD, you are totally right. I am sure I have said 'if you loved me you wouldn't do this or that'...many many times, though I think more recently I have been moving towards 'I need these things and you cannot give them. I wish you could have known/told me that at DD and not wasted 2 years. I need someone who can love me the way I need', and if I haven't said it quite like that, I must remember to think of it like that. Though I have told him many times I am not here to change him, if he doesn't want to do it fine, if he doesn't think he can do it fine...he has always been adament that he wants to and is totally able.

Ya know, I was just thinking while making my breakfast that TAM will be a much poorer place without you, AD. I hope your relationship with TAM lasts a little/a lot longer. I love your thoughtful posts and you write beautifully. You are a great counterbalance to the much used wooden mallets! And thanks for posting for me too. I appreciate it.

I do also want to say thanks for all input. It has been so very useful....funny cos it is so obvious when other peoples posts, and the advice is so different when it is your own. Obvious, but surprising all the same. 

I first started out on another forum, posted my story, and found the posters were rather blinkered with tunnel vision. The advice was not useful and it seemed some had never even read my posts before answering. I ended up on another's thread and he said he was going back over to his other forum where he spent more of his time now. I liked his posts. I asked what it was, and followed him here. His was the 1st thread I read (Almost Recovered). 

I am so thankful I found TAM. It has been my solace and my ass kicker for the last year and more. I dont know where I would be without this place. Certainly a lot less able to deal with the manipulaters and game players in my life. Probably totally un able! 

I cannot express what a valuable resource this is, and how important it has been in my life. Not just with my (ex) man, but also in many other aspects of my life. This is such a massively great forum.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Mind you, it has also been the cause of me being late for work too! There is always a downside  haha


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