# Sex within marriage: HELP



## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

Hey,
I’m married 12 years
I’m 40 wife 38
3 kids

Ongoing problem for years with lack of sex.
Always me initiating 99% of time.
I always feel like in begging and makes me feel like a pervert I get so desperate.
When we do do it it’s always at wrong time get interrupted or we have to be quick.
No intimacy, no kissing, no foreplay 90% the other 10% I get a rushed hard held wank then she turns on side and we have same sex each time.
We watch porn to get in mood, lately I’m finding it hard to ejaculate inside her ending up helping myself and she does same.

Hating this as it’s same **** over and over no variety no surprise no spontaneous sex and always me.

Any help greatly appreciated as I’m very close to considering seeing a therapist.

Very recently she told me she had cramps and didn’t want to have sex but only 20 mins beforehand I walked in on her masturbating. I pretended I didn’t even notice and she tried again 2-3 times in 20 mins but I kept interrupting her so when I suggested sex she said I have cramps NO! Yet she was sorting herself out.

Feeling really ****ty now and unwanted.

She always says I have a very high sex drive but to me it’s not high I would have sex everyday.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

What was your sex life like when you were first married?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

90% of what you do outside the bedroom leads up to what happens inside the bedroom. What is the day to day life like between you and your wife? 

Do you still "date" your wife? When is the last time ya'll made time just for each other. 

Are you a confident person or the type that lets "life happen to you" ?

Who wears the pants in the relationship ?


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## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

Always the same. I’m just at my end now with it. 
There’s always excuses even before we married. But mainly after.


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## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

We get out on dates about once a month.
But she spends more time on her phone playing games or on FB even when I’m trying to have a general conversation. 3 years ago I had an brief affair because same things were happening she’s not putting anything into us or me and I’m the type of person who likes to feel loved not just in a sexual way but be told I’m loved and get a hug now and then. Don’t want to go down same route as last time with an affair. When I bring to her attention to have more sex she does for a week and then back to square one again. It gets boring and frustrating for me all over.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

The affair thing is pretty bad but I'm going to pass over it for now ....

Here is some "general" information

A woman's libido is fueled "in reaction to." Ever notice that some guys seem to get all the woman? A woman desire is more responsive where a man is more spontaneous.

It is likely that you need to change some aspects of yourself to get her response. The fact that she is masturbating is actually a very good sign. It means she does have a 

sex drive. On a side note: Leave her be with her masturbation...it has no reflect on you. Don't get it too mixed up in your head.

Focus on what it is about YOURSELF that needs to change.

Again: Who wears the pants in your relationship?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I forgot to mention: I saw in your above that in your relationship that you "ask for sex". This is a huge no no. You have a lot of ground to cover ... I'm not sure where to begin.

It's possible she is wore F-ing out from chasing around 3 kids all day. But even in that case there is still hope. She might just need some leadership support.


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## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

Me, I wear the pants not by choice.
If I don’t do or say something needs to be done it don’t get done. Housework is an example. We share this but she’s the type of person that won’t clean a window but when she sees the window cleaner guy cleaning other houses she wants ours done too. She can be very lazy in all aspects of life. You talk about spontaneous, well I’m always trying to do spontaneous things and she rejects every single one! Every single time. It’s always on her terms when she wants it she gets it sex wise. We share everything with the house and regards kids school trips, training etc. So it’s not that she’s worked to the bone or anything. If she put half the effort into me than she does with her phone or friends we would be fine. Been to counsellors a lot of times over the years she makes changes but they last only a week or two after that she goes back to usual self. Now on the masturbation side, that day she had been telling me she had cramps then I walk in on her several times after the first time of walking in I suggested we have sex and I was shot down yet she was able to masturbate herself. Where was her cramps then? I’m after buying all her sex toys, lingerie and I’m the one trying new things. If it was the case she was playing ball with sex I’d have no bother leaving her alone to masturbate. It’s more the fact that it’s clear to me she don’t have sex unless I ask, and even then it’s only about a 25% Yes rate, it’s the same type of sex same positions little foreplay, almost zero oral.


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## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

If I don’t ask for sex as in suggest we have Sex then how else do I get it with her? What have I to learn here? I tried all other approaches, romance, massage with oils, roleplaying, porn. What happens at times is if I wake up in morning she’s on her phone playing games I watch some porn on phone and this leads us to have sex then most of the time. But again it’s me. She never initiated. Never. I’ve tried her at the kitchen sink, outside sex, places where we are alone in public but nothing.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Mr. M has nailed it ... most likely ... assuming no other darker reasons such as affairs (yours or hers) or a sex-negative outlook due to past trauma. 

Women react to men's sexuality and leadership ... we may not like the rules but we gotta play by them. 

You have to make her desire you. So change yourself (weights, money, stoic attitude, more playful, no passive-aggression, no complaining, no whining) and see the reaction. There is a theory that fixing a broken sex life takes one month for every year of the relationship, so get busy ...

And NEVER ask for sex, just never


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

She obviously has a sex drive and a fairly good one. What does that tell you? 

As much as we would like others to change, the truth is that we can only change ourselves, and get the response we want due to that change.

Based on what you say about your wife .... if you do the work, you'll get what your looking for.

We don't have many details so there could be a lot of things going on ..... BUT.... she surely has a sex drive which puts you in a good position ...better than a lot of people we see with your issue.

Sounds like you need some general education on how the female sex drive works. Books are your friend. Ester Pearl , Rochelle Fox, and others are where you should look.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

edam4 said:


> We get out on dates about once a month.
> But *she spends more time on her phone playing games or on FB even when I’m trying to have a general conversation. 3 years ago I had an brief affair* because same things were happening she’s not putting anything into us or me and I’m the type of person who likes to feel loved not just in a sexual way but be told I’m loved and get a hug now and then. Don’t want to go down same route as last time with an affair. When I bring to her attention to have more sex she does for a week and then back to square one again. It gets boring and frustrating for me all over.


You are not having a sex problem. You are having a relationship problem. 

I would recommend marriage counselling if you can find a good one (but remember I am biased because I am a marriage counsellor). 

*Does she know about the affair?*



> Me, I wear the pants not by choice.
> If I don’t do or say something needs to be done it don’t get done. Housework is an example.


That doesn't sound like what we mean by "wearing the pants".


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## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

Yes she found out about the affair. Went to marriage counselling and got through that and things were much better as in us as a married couple the sex thing or part in continuous.

Sorry I might be a bit slow but what is it that ye mean when ye say “who wears the pants” .

I’m sorry but I’m not buying into the theory that I must change I mean I’m literally after doing everything I can over the years and still find myself in the same scenario. When I do implement changes I stick to them 90% when she implement changes there always temporary a week or two at most. Back to square one then. I love my wife a lot but I also want sex without sounding like a total prick. I’m 40 and don’t want to be spending the rest of my years not getting much I mean I’m human and healthy so why not enjoy it.

Like today now I’m home kids in school perfect time to get close together but it don’t happen. Me changing won’t make any difference it will only serve to frustrate me more cause the more I do the less I get out of her. 

I do believe it’s a marriage problem though. So I’m going to look into that again but we’ve been here a hundred times before it’s like Groundhog Day.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

You sound like the kind of guy that wears his feelings on his sleeve. Are you overly sensitive? Sounds like it could be the case. Women like these guys as friends .... not sex partners.


"Me, I wear the pants not by choice."

The above is a bad deal as well ...... You would be much better off to be the type of guy that wears the pants by choice and example, not because that is who you want to be, but
because that is who you are.


The Affair: What progress have ya'll made on this front? Do you completely own the fact that your the screw up? Any part of "I did it because of her" is a real real REAL bad move.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

edam4 said:


> I’m sorry but I’m not buying into the theory that I must change I mean I’m literally after doing everything I can over the years and still find myself in the same scenario.
> 
> the more I do the less I get out of her.
> 
> .


Your not making the right changes .... this is why I was suggesting an education on female sexuality.
It starts with you understanding the differences ..... it's important. She is not you .... She doesn't think like you.

The more I do the less I get out of her:

This one could be important ..... describe "the more I do". Like doing what? Like your trying to nice her to death with doing everything around the house ....


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

The female attraction plan
No more Mr. nice guy
Married man sex life primer
his needs/her needs

Buy them all and read them.

The more you think that you don't need to change..... the more things will remain the same. Ask yourself: How has your plan been working for you so far?

I'm not trying to be critical, but it is VITAL you understand some common elements of human sexuality. As much as we all wish "It should just happen" .... sex is no different in that
some study can go a long way for those that need it.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

edam4 said:


> Yes she found out about the affair.


I have a suspicion it wasn't fully resolved. After all, you say you have moments of thinking about doing it again. That doesn't sound like it was really processed. 



> Went to marriage counselling and got through that and things were much better as in us as a married couple the sex thing or part in continuous.


I'm not sure I understand that. You say you got through and things were "much better". But you are also telling us how unsatisfactory your relationship is now (NOT JUST in the sex area). 



> Sorry I might be a bit slow but what is it that ye mean when ye say “who wears the pants” .


It means, who feels like the dominant animal. Who defers to who?



> I’m sorry but I’m not buying into the theory that I must change


Then there is no hope for you. 



> I mean I’m literally after doing everything I can over the years and still find myself in the same scenario.


Then obviously those are the wrong things. 

For a start, never ask for sex.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

edam4 said:


> Sorry I might be a bit slow but what is it that ye mean when ye say “who wears the pants” .


Who is in charge in your house?

If your not an assertive type of guy you would have been better off to marry a woman with a "weaker" personality.

If your wife is more assertive than you ..... that's usually not a good combo for a sexual relationship. This is a generalization but often is true.

Generalization Again: Woman are more prone to be attracted to assertive and confident guys ... the ones that know what they want and live that way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> What was your sex life like when you were first married?





edam4 said:


> Always the same. I’m just at my end now with it.
> There’s always excuses even before we married. But mainly after.


If your sex life has always been like this, even before you married, then this is as good as it's going to get. The best you'll ever do is get back to what you had when you two first met and the New Relationship Emotions were coursing throughout. 

I do have some questions.... How often do you approach her for sex and how often does she comply? 

How long did your affair last and what was the fallout? Was she upset about it? Did the marriage counselor blame her for any part of that?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

edam4 said:


> ...I suggested we have sex and I was shot down yet she was able to masturbate herself.


What does that TELL you? She's so utterly *emotionally disengaged* from you at this point that she'd rather masturbate than touch you.

Sadly, you can take her out on all the dates you want - while she completely ignores you and plays games on her phone the whole time - because she's completely and utterly emotionally disengaged from you.

While I agree that most women are much more attracted to a confidant, strong man then they are to a weak, wimpy guy, I don't think if you were to suddenly change into a strong, sure, confident type that she'd fall back in love with you. I just think at this point she's only there with you primarily for financial reasons. I'll assume she's financially dependent on you or doesn't earn enough to live comfortably on her own with 3 kids. She also knows it's a lot more work being on her own supporting and raising 3 kids, so that's more than likely another reason why she stays. That's why a lot of women stay in marriages they're no longer invested in - because financially, they simply have no options.

How many more times are you going to drag her to marriage counseling before you finally face the writing on the wall, edam?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over - and expecting DIFFERENT results.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> What does that TELL you? She's so utterly *emotionally disengaged* from you at this point that she'd rather masturbate than touch you.
> 
> Sadly, you can take her out on all the dates you want - while she completely ignores you and plays games on her phone the whole time - because she's completely and utterly emotionally disengaged from you.
> 
> ...


I'll say your mostly correct, but not 100% that she is at your "When she is done, she is done" rule just quite yet. I reckon it is quite possible. I'm still betting her drive can pull a few strings.

He's a bit thick headed though ......


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A therapist who deals with couple's sexual relationships is what I'd recommend.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Is doesn't sound like you've ever had a very good relationship or that either of you are enjoying it now. Perhaps it would be best to go your separate ways. The facts you present don't give much hope for this to grow into a wonderful relationship.


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## Missmilly (Feb 15, 2019)

It’s crazy because I read this and I can tell you that Ive been married less than a year and in a relationship for 3. First year there was sex twice a day, 69, a**l, wild stuff. Now I just do it to make sure his needs are satisfied but I can’t even push myself to do the wild stuff. I only want fast quickies so I can do something else like be on my phone or take a long bath. And yes sometimes I will masturbate during the day. For sure I have big marriage issues but I don’t think that is what causes it.... For me I wonder if some of us don’t just get bored of sex with the same person after a few years. ( yes ive said it 😞 ) I find my partner very attractive but I just don’t feel horny touchy. I would much rather take a shoulder massage. Have you tried this with your wife? To give her a long, intense good shoulder massage? For my hubby this almost alwyas leads to more romantic sex. It’s so simple but it works. I have 3 kids too...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> What does that TELL you? She's so utterly *emotionally disengaged* from you at this point that she'd rather masturbate than touch you.
> 
> Sadly, you can take her out on all the dates you want - while she completely ignores you and plays games on her phone the whole time - because she's completely and utterly emotionally disengaged from you.
> 
> ...


This, times a thousand. 

Man, you've got to grow a pair.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

edam4 said:


> *We watch porn to get in mood, lately I’m finding it hard to ejaculate inside her ending up helping myself and she does same.*
> 
> ...
> 
> She always says I have a very high sex drive but to me it’s not high *I would have sex everyday.*


The topic of porn completely aside...
@edam4 because initiating sex with your wife has become a source of stress and anxiety it is possible that you may very likely be initiating when you are not in the mood. The reason for this is so that it will not hurt as much when you are rejected AND then you can validate yourself that you have a reason to be angry and frustrated with your wife. It is kind of like being angry and enjoying being angry. Then you have to double check that you are in the right for feeling the way you feel, and you initiate at an inappropriate time to fuel a self fulfilling prophecy that you are not being loved. 

Then if she DOES accept your advances... oh crap, let's watch some porn to try and get in the mood right quick. Meh, just not doing it for me.

*If you want to change things, ONLY initiate sex when you actually want it and it is a sure thing!* Otherwise you are likely making your wife feel unsexy and lame when she tries to please you. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

edam4 said:


> We get out on dates about once a month.
> But she spends more time on her phone playing games or on FB even when I’m trying to have a general conversation. 3 years ago *I had an brief affair because same things were happening she’s not putting anything into us or me and I’m the type of person who likes to feel loved not just in a sexual way but be told I’m loved and get a hug now and then. Don’t want to go down same route as last time with an affair. *When I bring to her attention to have more sex she does for a week and then back to square one again. It gets boring and frustrating for me all over.


Man I gotta tell you... Reading how you blame your spouse for your cheating and how you use her behavior as justification for doing it again tells me more about your poor character than about her poor behavior. 

I think before you can start addressing the sexual issues in your marriage, you need to address your issues in individual counseling.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

edam4 said:


> *Me, I wear the pants not by choice*.
> If I don’t do or say something needs to be done it don’t get done. Housework is an example. We share this but she’s the type of person that won’t clean a window but when she sees the window cleaner guy cleaning other houses she wants ours done too. She can be very lazy in all aspects of life. You talk about spontaneous, well I’m always trying to do spontaneous things and she rejects every single one! Every single time. It’s always on her terms when she wants it she gets it sex wise. We share everything with the house and regards kids school trips, training etc. So it’s not that she’s worked to the bone or anything. If she put half the effort into me than she does with her phone or friends we would be fine. Been to counsellors a lot of times over the years she makes changes but they last only a week or two after that she goes back to usual self. Now on the masturbation side, that day she had been telling me she had cramps then I walk in on her several times after the first time of walking in I suggested we have sex and I was shot down yet she was able to masturbate herself. Where was her cramps then? I’m after buying all her sex toys, lingerie and I’m the one trying new things. If it was the case she was playing ball with sex I’d have no bother leaving her alone to masturbate. It’s more the fact that it’s clear to me she don’t have sex unless I ask, and even then it’s only about a 25% Yes rate, it’s the same type of sex same positions little foreplay, almost zero oral.


*Facepalm*
Read " The Rational Male"
Your issues are a simple fix......It's called fix you and how you act.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> Man I gotta tell you... Reading how you blame your spouse for your cheating and how you use her behavior as justification for doing it again tells me more about your poor character than about her poor behavior.
> 
> I think before you can start addressing the sexual issues in your marriage, you need to address your issues in individual counseling.



I agree with you on that. 

Badsanta


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## edam4 (May 20, 2019)

Thanks for all your replies I’ll sit down over the weekend and give it great consideration all the advice from here.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

delupt said:


> Mr. M has nailed it ... most likely ... assuming no other darker reasons such as affairs (yours or hers) or a sex-negative outlook due to past trauma.
> 
> Women react to men's sexuality and leadership ... we may not like the rules but we gotta play by them.
> 
> ...


Not all of us are reactionary. My own view if that if you are married to a man who does not liberate you into the freedom to talk about and initiate sex, then you will always wait for him. That waiting does not maen you do not want to. it just means you are not free to initiate. There are a lot of us with husbands that do not give freedom. 

There there are husbands that think we are hens that the cockrel just chases for 3 metres and mates with fir half a minute. A lot of women say having sex with their husbands is not worth much. Its just like he is using you as something to ejaculate into and there is nothing in it for you. 

To have meaningful sex you men need to allow your wives to lead out. A body is like a country that has not been explored yet. A bit of fumbling followed by a peck on the cheek and concluded by a parting of the legs and a sigh of relief is not worth anything to her. At that rate her hands are her sexual partner. 


Men need to be more diligent on this thing about sex in the home. Liberate your wives and let them lead. It is not true to say women have a lower drive than men. It is one of those sayings that justify men to NOT make a meaningful effort at home, and end up paying for what they could get for free at home. 


More than 90% of the clients of prostitutes are married men. Meantime there is a huge number of sexually frustrated wives. The two stats do not add up. The fault is with men.

My husband knows that I want it in the early morning but not so much in the evening when he wants it. Also we have an agreement that the only viable rate is sex on demand. If one wants it the other must find a way unless he is ill or I am on time of month/ill.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Sounds like you were incompatable from the start. Why'd you marry her?

You got what you've got. If she's masturbating then she just doesn't want sex with you.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> What does that TELL you? She's so utterly *emotionally disengaged* from you at this point that she'd rather masturbate than touch you.
> 
> Sadly, you can take her out on all the dates you want - while she completely ignores you and plays games on her phone the whole time - because she's completely and utterly emotionally disengaged from you.



^^^^THIS

Another poster mentioned that she has more to lose if she stays which could be the case as well. You do need to work on yourself and become more desirable. FWIW, I don’t think having an affair makes a man attractive but you can’t change that. Marriage counseling might be option again. It would be good to ask, “why do you feel the need to masturbate but not have sex?” I think you’ll have a good idea where to go from there.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Sorry but your priorities seem skewed. You are hyper focused on sex right now. You talk about wanting it in different locales, bending her over, watching porn, having an affair because she was not “cooperating” Meanwhile she’s raising 3 kids and dealing with the fallout of your affair, which it seems you want to blame on her. You’re not going to change, you have needs. Seriously? No wonder she prefers her hand. She just feels like a thing for you to use. Educate yourself. Open your mind. Read the books recommended. Work to improve yourself and your relationship. I also suggest Esther Perel, thought altering sh*t. Or just leave. But putting up all these blockades and complaining about the results is pointless. “Why should I change?” Because you are the one who wants the change. Period. And speaking of periods, orgasms help relieve cramps. 🤓


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> ^^^^THIS
> 
> It would be good to ask, “why do you feel the need to masturbate but not have sex?” I think you’ll have a good idea where to go from there.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I respectfully disagree. It puts her in the position of having to answer why she masturbates. The answer is simple .... she wants to.

In my experience women do not like to "answer" for anything sexual. I'll admit though that my wife likes the submissive role so your mileage may vary.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Your resentment towards your wife is palpable. You're stuck in a vicious circle of resentment, lack of sex, more resentment...

Your wife has obvious faults, and so do you. The tone of your responses leads me to believe that you have more than one foot out the door. My suggestion is to leave the relationship and to work on yourself. 

One of the tenants of my relationship philosophy: Everyone thinks that they have a right to be in a relationship. They will kick and stomp and pout if their god-given right isn't going as it SHOULD be. The truth is that the vast majority of people shouldn't be in long-term relationships. It's just not for everyone. Most of of us don't have the tools in our toolbox to do it right. For some reason, people see that as a negative. Most of us admit we don't have the tools to be rocket scientists, but tell Sally that maybe she doesn't have it in her to find a good husband and she'll lose her flipping mind. 

I think your situation goes beyond "turning your wife on". You seemed to have passed that point years ago. Your affair also points to your own inability to cope when stuff goes sideways in your relationship... which doesn't bode well for your future together.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> I respectfully disagree. It puts her in the position of having to answer why she masturbates. The answer is simple .... she wants to.
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience women do not like to "answer" for anything sexual. I'll admit though that my wife likes the submissive role so your mileage may vary.



After rereading what I posted, I should have said he needs to ask himself why is my wife taking care of herself and he has to watch porn and where the disconnect is coming from during MC. We can tell him to fix yourself all day but he needs a little awareness as to where to start. I meant it as a lead-in question not a cross examination of a hostile witness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

OP, you have what we call a "Take responsibility problem" 

You will never be happy in your marriage or otherwise until you do.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I think that your affair did lots of damage, maybe she is still resentful regardless of counselling

You don’t want to wear the pants. You don’t sound like a leader of your home. Do you expect your wife to be the leader?
Women only look up to men who lead their families.

How experienced are you sexually. Sounds like you want your wife to lead here too, not very attractive.

Do you whinge to her about things a lot?


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

edam4 said:


> We get out on dates about once a month.
> But she spends more time on her phone playing games or on FB even when I’m trying to have a general conversation. 3 years ago I had an brief affair because same things were happening she’s not putting anything into us or me and I’m the type of person who likes to feel loved not just in a sexual way but be told I’m loved and get a hug now and then. Don’t want to go down same route as last time with an affair. When I bring to her attention to have more sex she does for a week and then back to square one again. It gets boring and frustrating for me all over.


For me personally, I know that I would not discuss any possibility of any continuation with the marriage if one of us had an affair. That would just be the end with no further discussion about it. When we married we agreed that an affair would be one of the markers of the end of our marriage and neither would would seek any alimony from the other. The only thing we would do is to provide for the children. 

Your case proves that we were correct to agree that.


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## Smhart (Jul 2, 2019)

Stop making it all about you is my advice. Get some perspective. I'm female and had these issues. I blamed my husband and it took me quite awhile to realize I was a major problem outside the bedroom. 

I fixed it though and maybe this can work for you to. Start a journal to her. I keep mine positive and who doesn't love reading that their spouse truly loves and adores them? 

Try writing everything they do that you love and appreciate. Not only does it do good for them, I know it helps me realize how much my husband does for me that I've always have taken for granted. It opened lines of communication that weren't previously there. 

I don't make my husband read it everytime I write in it but he does because he loves it. I keep ours about just us unless I'm remarking on what an amazing father I think he is. 

Sex is included in there. I describe different things he does that turn me on, different levels of intensity certain acts bring me, but I never criticize. So he knows what I like. I describe what I find sexy about him. Things that are hard for me to say outright due to embarassment (even though he assures me not to be) I write them down. I swear these are his favorite entries lol.

My husband was also masturbating a lot as was I so I asked to watch. Everyone likes to be touched differently so watching can also be educational. 

He had an affair after our first son was born. It was hard learning to trust him again, so while you may think she's over it, she probably isn't. It gave me a whole host of personal insecurities. I always felt like I wasn't enough. I always doubted myself and what I was doing. And while he took a 180 I didn't. We did get through it though but occasionally I still think about it 14 years later now. Maybe you don't get how much affairs can truly hurt. 

But it to me sounds like you don't appreciate her for what she does do, your communication sounds lacking if she's looking to talk to friends over you. If she masturbates, so what? You should be happy she isn't straying and she loves you enough to remain commited. Self love is important too! She'll never be able to tell you all things she enjoys if she's not exploring her body herself. And honestly masturbating on your period does help relieve cramps as does sex but not all women are comfortable having sex on their period. 

Make her feel sexy again without the pressure of performance. Don't do things just so she's more likely to sleep with you. Do them to improve your relationship overall. Guilting someone doesn't make them want to have sex more. Nagging doesn't make them want to have sex more. Blaming someone for all the relationship issues doesn't make them want to have sex more.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I try really hard to understand these threads but I just can't. They make women seem like these complicated delicate flowers, that require all kinds of special attention and needs to open....which always seems odd because usually that flower was open at all or most times at the beginning of the relationship. I can't say that I would even bother to jump through hoops if someone I was in a relationship with didn't desire me. I would just accept it and move on.


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## Smhart (Jul 2, 2019)

ReformedHubby said:


> I try really hard to understand these threads but I just can't. They make women seem like these complicated delicate flowers, that require all kinds of special attention and needs to open....which always seems odd because usually that flower was open at all or most times at the beginning of the relationship. I can't say that I would even bother to jump through hoops if someone I was in a relationship with didn't desire me. I would just accept it and move on.


I disagree. It's easier to be open in the begining. Sometimes things happen throughout the relationship that can cause walls to be built between you that make communication hard. People are all complicated. I wouldn't say women are delicate flowers as I was the one basically begging my husband for sex and taking him for granted. He was extremely stressed out and I wasn't acknowledging that and stressed him out even more. I put my feelings above his all the time. Men have feelings too and can also be delicate when it comes to those feelings. I'd never describe my husband as being a delicate flower though, just human. I feel like if you truly love someone, you don't give up on them so easily when things get hard.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The issue sounds like she was NEVER very interested in him. That's why I think nothing is going to change this! Some people marry people they aren't very interested in. It seems as though the wife is one of them.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Smhart said:


> I disagree. It's easier to be open in the begining. Sometimes things happen throughout the relationship that can cause walls to be built between you that make communication hard. People are all complicated. I wouldn't say women are delicate flowers as I was the one basically begging my husband for sex and taking him for granted. He was extremely stressed out and I wasn't acknowledging that and stressed him out even more. I put my feelings above his all the time. Men have feelings too and can also be delicate when it comes to those feelings. I'd never describe my husband as being a delicate flower though, just human. I feel like if you truly love someone, you don't give up on them so easily when things get hard.


Understandable that you disagree, my response was brief and a bit blunt. I am certainly not against couples trying to work on things when a wall has been created. My gripe is that a lot of the advice on these threads has nothing to do with a wall. How are things like losing weight, making more money, or doing more house work going to help with a wall? In the OP's case I'm not even sure we can say that it was the infidelity that created the wall...because the sex issue is mostly why he stepped out. I'm all for working through things...but...a lot of these people suffer for years...I think most people do have a breaking point when they are ready to throw in the towel, or they just accept it as their life.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

OP hasn't posted in over 2 weeks.

My advice would be that it's time for him to end this marriage. 

As for the 'manning up' piece, yes I'm a big advocate of that exercise. I do not advocate it for purposes of getting more sex from a partner who already doesn't want to touch you. It is intended to help that man determine if he still has a partner that wants to work with him at all ... and if he doesn't, the courage and dignity to move on.

Being aware of female sexuality is absolutely not the same as being able to dictate the outcome of female sexuality.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> I respectfully disagree. It puts her in the position of having to answer why she masturbates. The answer is simple .... she wants to.
> 
> In my experience women do not like to "answer" for anything sexual. I'll admit though that my wife likes the submissive role so your mileage may vary.


I have mixed thoughts about this, respectfully. 

You already have to know she's lost all respect, and doesn't want you (I'm sorry).

That said, I'd have no issues with putting her on the spot about why she's always lying to you about all this, and wtf why not ask her about the mast, not that you want her anymore (or shouldn't) if she cont lies about why she doesn't want sex.

Tell her to put her adult panties on and just tell you. Really. 

It's not like you two are strangers.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I have mixed thoughts about this, respectfully.
> 
> You already have to know she's lost all respect, and doesn't want you (I'm sorry).
> 
> ...


OP,

I really like the advice you've gotten here, as well as this advice above on how to firmly state what you need and move on if necessary.

No doubt, women prefer men who lead, provide, and show confidence while showing consideration to their needs and sensitivities. But sometimes it's not enough - something about you or something internal to her might just not allow her to enjoy getting into you. But if you're not being a good family man and respectful of her needs and feelings, then you'll never know which situation you're dealing with.

My suggestion is this: take the next few months and up your game where you can. Don't pester her for sex, but do be willing to respond if she initiates. Treat her well non-sexually. Treat your family well and take care of business around the house. In general, be present, contributing, pleasant, and an asset - someone people want to be around.

If you don't see any movement on her part after a few months, then simply just tell her where you stand. I told my recent ex-GF something like "your behavior is killing my love for you. You need to figure out what you want because if we go on like this much longer there's not going to be anything to save". If need be, take your lumps and move on.

Best of luck to you.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Deejo said:


> Being aware of female sexuality is absolutely not the same as being able to dictate the outcome of female sexuality.


Now isn't that the truth !!! I reckon that is the truth on so many other topics as well.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Mr.Married said:


> Now isn't that the truth !!! I reckon that is the truth on so many other topics as well.


When I was married my wife was friends with more than one woman that was married but said they were non-sexual. Once divorced they found that that wasn't the case. They did enjoy sex. But there are others that seemingly don't look to date for years if at all after a divorce. I don't know. I think we overthink this. The normal routine of life might just be making these wives bored, that may be all there is to it in a lot of cases. Not sure how to fix that though.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Deejo said:


> OP hasn't posted in over 2 weeks
> 
> 
> Being aware of female sexuality is absolutely not the same as being able to dictate the outcome of female sexuality.


I just like this comment, wanted to throw it out there again.

This is true in all situations and a good once sentence summary. 

My first ten years of successful encounters were based on this us my intense desire to see how much variety could I inject in relations, every time.

The early older women crash course educated me and provided much continual experience gathering, multiple encounters, and at times my thoughts were just "to see how much I can get them to do, how much will they let me do to them".

I always wondered how much "was really them leading me to the water" and how much was me "taking a drink" when there.

Ie "dictating the outcome" even during great sex.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Very interesting all these things she's supposed to be doing to/for him. Yet, it's unlikely he appreciates people telling him he's selfish. He'll just keep on resenting that she masturbates instead of wanting sex with him. He'll never get it. 



MaiChi said:


> Not all of us are reactionary..... There there are husbands that think we are hens that the cockrel just chases for 3 metres and mates with fir half a minute. A lot of women say having sex with their husbands is not worth much. Its just like he is using you as something to ejaculate into and there is nothing in it for you.
> 
> To have meaningful sex you men need to allow your wives to lead out. A body is like a country that has not been explored yet. A bit of fumbling followed by a peck on the cheek and concluded by a parting of the legs and a sigh of relief is not worth anything to her. At that rate her hands are her sexual partner.
> 
> ...


Sang that song, Sistah!!! I don't know about the leading part, but everything else is totally true as another possible reason for women who don't want to have sex with their husband. Glad at least you can say it without retribution. lol


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MaiChi said:


> Not all of us are reactionary. My own view if that if you are married to a man who does not liberate you into the freedom to talk about and initiate sex, then you will always wait for him. That waiting does not maen you do not want to. it just means you are not free to initiate. There are a lot of us with husbands that do not give freedom.
> 
> There there are husbands that think we are hens that the cockrel just chases for 3 metres and mates with fir half a minute. A lot of women say having sex with their husbands is not worth much. Its just like he is using you as something to ejaculate into and there is nothing in it for you.
> 
> ...


Hearing these stories and anecdotes always amazes me because this is not my experience at all. 

I have always been as concerned with my wife's pleasure as my own, often even more so. 

I have always been open to my wife taking the lead or at least pointing me in the right direction once in a while. I like to lead, but I'm more interested in results than my ego. 

My wife has complete liberation (from me) to talk about, initiate, or lead sex. She will initiate on occasion, but she refuses to talk about it. "Sex should be natural" she says, which to her means it's something you just do, not talk about. She says talking about it kills it. 

This is particularly interesting. 


MaiChi said:


> More than 90% of the clients of prostitutes are married men. Meantime there is a huge number of sexually frustrated wives. The two stats do not add up. *The fault is with men.*


I can see that the first two sentences directly feed the third, but not sure how the three then support the fourth. If both sides are not getting what they want, it could be either one's fault, or more likely a combination of the two.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hearing these stories and anecdotes always amazes me because this is not my experience at all.
> 
> I have always been as concerned with my wife's pleasure as my own, often even more so.
> 
> ...


I'm like your wife. I don't like talking about sex (or instructing/guiding) because it kills it. The one time I did let a guy know I'd like him to do something a certain way, the result was mindblowing, but I hated saying something then, never did before that, and never have since. Go figure. It's just the way a lot of women are.

Regarding her 90% statement, I don't really understand why you didn't understand it. I've explained this in-depth many times in recent months. The bottom line is a sexually dissatisfied woman doesn't want to have sex with a man who doesn't please her. Even if she loves him and wants to be married to him, she doesn't like feeling there is nothing in it for her, nor does she like feeling used. And it has nothing to do with how concerned or open the guy may be. It also, unfortunately, has nothing to do with his willingness to please her. If he doesn't know how to please her, then she goes unsatisfied. I understand a lot of men need help in pleasing their wife/girlfriend. They don't know what she likes or how to do things that she will like. So they depend on her to help them please her. But, not all women are able to help because some/many don't know what pleases them until they experience those pleasures. Until then, all they know is they are missing something. They don't know what they're missing. They only know they are missing something, so those women end up giving up on sex as being anything pleasurable for them and feeling sex is just for men, and don't want to be bothered with it because, again, they don't like feeling used. I am honestly exhausted of saying these things on this board.

So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes. If a guy is inadequate in his bedroom techniques, the results are his fault alone. And the proof is on these boards nearly every day with so many men complaining she won't have sex. Some complain she masturbates but won't have sex with him. Some complain she had an affair but wouldn't have sex with him. And some threads like this one with the guy complaining about all the things she won't do to him. It's incredible.

A lot of you guys/some of you guys/most of you guys (whatever the number may be) have resented me telling you because, some have said, I place all the responsibility on men. Resent my saying these things all you want since you just have to resent a woman telling you how it goes, but I don't place any responsibility on anybody. It's absurd to say that since I didn't bring men and women or their need for sexual relations to life. I am simply relating the nature of the dynamics. Anybody who resents knowing it and refuses to get it and up their sexual skills game deserves to remain resentful - resentful of both their lack of a fulfilling sex life and resentful of me suggesting they, themselves, could easily be the reason their sex life is lacking.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> When I was married my wife was friends with more than one woman that was married but said they were non-sexual. Once divorced they found that that wasn't the case. They did enjoy sex. But there are others that seemingly don't look to date for years if at all after a divorce. I don't know. I think we overthink this. The normal routine of life might just be making these wives bored, that may be all there is to it in a lot of cases. Not sure how to fix that though.


Absolutely this! Couldn't have said it better myself. Oh wait. I've said it dozens of times.

To add: I've also seen lots of women state exactly what you're saying - "I thought I was low drive but after my divorce, I found out I'm not" === she was bored and probably felt used. 

And the same thing from men saying - "I thought my wife didn't like sex but found out she just didn't like sex with me" === she was bored and probably felt used.

The way to fix that is to learn how to please their wife.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

StarFires said:


> I'm like your wife. I don't like talking about sex (or instructing/guiding) because it kills it. The one time I did let a guy know I'd like him to do something a certain way, the result was mindblowing, but I hated saying something then, never did before that, and never have since. Go figure. It's just the way a lot of women are.
> 
> Regarding her 90% statement, I don't really understand why you didn't understand it. I've explained this in-depth many times in recent months. The bottom line is a sexually dissatisfied woman doesn't want to have sex with a man who doesn't please her. Even if she loves him and wants to be married to him, she doesn't like feeling there is nothing in it for her, nor does she like feeling used. And it has nothing to do with how concerned or open the guy may be. It also, unfortunately, has nothing to do with his willingness to please her. If he doesn't know how to please her, then she goes unsatisfied. I understand a lot of men need help in pleasing their wife/girlfriend. They don't know what she likes or how to do things that she will like. So they depend on her to help them please her. But, not all women are able to help because some/many don't know what pleases them until they experience those pleasures. Until then, all they know is they are missing something. They don't know what they're missing. They only know they are missing something, so those women end up giving up on sex as being anything pleasurable for them and feeling sex is just for men, and don't want to be bothered with it because, again, they don't like feeling used. I am honestly exhausted of saying these things on this board.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be obtuse or even dismissive, but after reading what you wrote...it still doesn't make sense to me. If you love me enough to marry me, then love me enough to tell me what does it for you instead of watching both of us suffer with a sex life that satisfies neither of us. In the cases where neither person has enough experience, then work together as a couple on it. Sounds obvious...but it must be hard to do judging by the number of couples in this predicament.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> I'm like your wife. I don't like talking about sex (or instructing/guiding) because it kills it. The one time I did let a guy know I'd like him to do something a certain way, the result was mindblowing, but I hated saying something then, never did before that, and never have since. Go figure. It's just the way a lot of women are.
> 
> Regarding her 90% statement, I don't really understand why you didn't understand it. I've explained this in-depth many times in recent months. The bottom line is a sexually dissatisfied woman doesn't want to have sex with a man who doesn't please her. Even if she loves him and wants to be married to him, she doesn't like feeling there is nothing in it for her, nor does she like feeling used. And it has nothing to do with how concerned or open the guy may be. It also, unfortunately, has nothing to do with his willingness to please her. If he doesn't know how to please her, then she goes unsatisfied. I understand a lot of men need help in pleasing their wife/girlfriend. They don't know what she likes or how to do things that she will like. So they depend on her to help them please her. But, not all women are able to help because some/many don't know what pleases them until they experience those pleasures. Until then, all they know is they are missing something. They don't know what they're missing. They only know they are missing something, so those women end up giving up on sex as being anything pleasurable for them and feeling sex is just for men, and don't want to be bothered with it because, again, they don't like feeling used. I am honestly exhausted of saying these things on this board.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying up to a point. 

I get that some women don't want to talk Check
I get that some men don't know what to do, either in general or specifically with a particular woman. Check

The problem is the assertion that if it's not clicking it's all the man's fault. If the woman is either unwilling or unable to say what is lacking, then the fault is shared. Very few men are clairvoyant. 

I don't resent anything here; just not buying the one way assessment. A couple should work together to make their marriage good, in the bedroom just like in finances, child rearing, non-sexual quality time, etc. You wouldn't hesitate to tell your husband you'd rather go to Aruba than Anchorage. Sex shouldn't be any different. 

Let's flip this around. Men also have sexual preferences, and variations between what does and doesn't work for them individually. By your logic, if your man is dissatisfied with you, regardless if he can't or won't say why, the fault is all yours. As a man, I don't put any blame on my wife for my dissatisfaction until such time that I communicate to her what I want and she proves either unwilling or unable to deliver on my request. 

It took me some time to dial in what I really wanted wanted and knowing that, it would be ludicrous for blaming her for not being able to figure out what I couldn't yet articulate myself. And then over time, things may still change, so having something figured out one day doesn't imply that it will work the next. These changes could use a little discussion to keep things flowing nicely for both. 

*Sexual exploration and discovery should be a shared journey.* One side expecting the other to know it all is a recipe for failure in most relationships; at a minimum it is highly unrealistic.

p.s. to be perfectly clear, I NEVER said, nor would I ever say that a man going to prostitutes was in the wife's fault, shared fault, or even justifiable in any way. I only sad that if things aren't clicking between a couple, the fault could be shared. Please don't put false words in my mouth, especially ones so offensive as that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

StarFires said:


> So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes. If a guy is inadequate in his bedroom techniques, the results are his fault alone.


I'm having a hard time reconciling all of the prelude you made to this statement with the conclusion.

Women don't know what they want, and many that do will not communicate it to their mates, yet it's HIS fault for not pleasing her in the bedroom?

If you want to try something, speak up. If you know you like something, speak up. If not, suffer in silence and place the blame squarely where it belongs, especially when you have a husband ready and willing to please you if he only knew what was missing - or even that SOMETHING is missing, in which case I suppose he should use the shotgun approach and try everything?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm not trying to be obtuse or even dismissive, but after reading what you wrote...it still doesn't make sense to me. *If you love me enough to marry me, then love me enough to tell me what does it for you *instead of watching both of us suffer with a sex life that satisfies neither of us. In the cases where neither person has enough experience, then work together as a couple on it. Sounds obvious...but it must be hard to do judging by the number of couples in this predicament.


This exactly! If you want meatloaf for dinner, open your mouth and say so. You have no grounds to resent it when you get liver and onions.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm not trying to be obtuse or even dismissive, but after reading what you wrote...it still doesn't make sense to me. If you love me enough to marry me, then love me enough to tell me what does it for you instead of watching both of us suffer with a sex life that satisfies neither of us. In the cases where neither person has enough experience, then work together as a couple on it. Sounds obvious...but it must be hard to do judging by the number of couples in this predicament.


and.....



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The problem is the assertion that if it's not clicking it's all the man's fault. If the woman is either unwilling or unable to say what is lacking, then the fault is shared. Very few men are clairvoyant.
> 
> I don't resent anything here; just not buying the one way assessment. A couple should work together to make their marriage good, in the bedroom just like in finances, child rearing, non-sexual quality time, etc. You wouldn't hesitate to tell your husband you'd rather go to Aruba than Anchorage. Sex shouldn't be any different.


ReformedHubby, I don't think you're trying to be obtuse. I fully understand the premise doesn't make sense, and I also know it makes it very hard for a lot of guys, especially those who are perfectly willing to learn how to please their women. To both of you and anyone else who may be interested, it makes perfect sense to question my premise and think/feel things like _"If you love me enough to marry me, then love me enough to tell me what does it for you . . ."_ and _"A couple should work together to make their marriage good, in the bedroom just like . . ."_

Believe me, I understand you thinking and feeling that way. But I'm not guessing here and not engaged in any hypothetical hyperbole. I'm telling you the way it is for some/many/most women. It's not defiance or a conscious refusal. It's a subconscious condition. They are not able. It's just their female nature and while it could be stated that they should do it anyway, you cannot very well expect a woman to pee standing in front of the toilet and be able to hit the targeted water bowl. Say "if" all day long. Say "should" all day. They are perfectly logical scenarios and assertions, but they won't make it happen if it isn't possible to happen. 

This isn't a related example, but perfectly paints the picture of what I'm saying:
At 3 years old, my daughter could read as well as you and I (not a boast, just stating a fact). However, I spelled her middle name so wonky (kind of an oriental spelling) that she was 7 years before she could spell it without hesitation. For those years prior, I would ask her to spell her name, and she would attempt it's spelling by using the American English rules for phonetics, which is the way I (and my sister) taught her to read. It was at 7 that I realized I had to tell her "The spelling of your middle name doesn't follow the rules of spelling and isn't phonetically correct, so you're simply going to have to memorize it and accept that's the way it's spelled, instead of trying to sound it out or make it make sense. She had no more problems spelling her name after that. 

So I'm suggesting that you remove your need for logical outcome and simply accept this. Once doing so, you have to recognize that if you want a fulfilling sex life and want to learn how to please your woman who is unable, or seemingly to you unwilling, to assist (of course, I'm stating "you" and "your" in general, not personally to either of you), then you have to learn without her instruction or assistance. This is the reason it is incumbent of you and is your responsibility since you want her to WANT to have sex with you. Otherwise, keep complaining that she won't.

There are women who don't know, so you can't expect them to be able to tell you what they don't know. I recognize that seems unfair to the unknowledgeable but willing partner but again, that's the way it is. Women learn what feels good to them when they experience what feels good to them. They don't know what they like/want/need until then, so they have nothing to offer by way of instruction or assistance. But they do recognize when it feels good and they also recognize when it doesn't. A woman recognizes being unfulfilled and that there's something missing.

When I didn't know anything to offer, I obviously couldn't help, right? But even after I learned some things, I still didn't help because I was too shy, too uncomfortable, too inhibited, too whatever to help them in any way, so I know guys can learn without a woman's guidance. In my experience, since I'm 59 years old, from way back in the day long before internet with it's plethora of information, there were still books and videos. There were a couple or three guys who told me they learned from older women, but my first what I considered "good lover" learned from books, so I know the information is out there and has been for a very long time. We all know there is lots these days on the internet so long as no one expects for pornography to teach them how to please a woman.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Let's flip this around. Men also have sexual preferences, and variations between what does and doesn't work for them individually. By your logic, if your man is dissatisfied with you, regardless if he can't or won't say why, the fault is all yours. As a man, I don't put any blame on my wife for my dissatisfaction until such time that I communicate to her what I want and she proves either unwilling or unable to deliver on my request


Based on my extensive response above (for the dozenth time on this board lol), I'm hoping you will see that you can't compare yourself to women and really should let go of your need for a logical outcome. It simply doesn't work the way you think it *should* work. It works the way it works. Again, please try to accept that.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> *Sexual exploration and discovery should be a shared journey.* One side expecting the other to know it all is a recipe for failure in most relationships; at a minimum it is highly unrealistic.


I cannot agree more. However, that doesn't change the facts. I'm asking you to train your vocabulary to stop using the word "should" in this particular type of discussion. Then, train your mind to 'accept the things you cannot change, to change the things you can, and to be able to know the difference.' For real, are you getting me now?

Regarding the types of women I'm referring to (I'm obviously not talking about all women since there are other categories) - particularly those who are inexperienced regarding their pleasure but eventually do learn - I'm sure, or at least hope, there comes a time in their sex life that they become able and comfortable enough to communicate with their partner. Many do and by understanding what I'm saying, you can hopefully eliminate the need for your woman to say "I thought I was low drive but after my divorce I found out I wasn't" or for men to say "I thought she was low drive but found out she just didn't want to have sex with me."



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> p.s. to be perfectly clear, I NEVER said, nor would I ever say that a man going to prostitutes was in the wife's fault, shared fault, or even justifiable in any way. I only sad that if things aren't clicking between a couple, the fault could be shared. Please don't put false words in my mouth, especially ones so offensive as that.


"The wife's fault" has been the long-standing assertion and still is in many cultures. However, I don't know what you are referring to. I don't recall you saying it, and I don't recall accusing you of saying it. Show me where I put words in your mouth.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> This exactly! If you want meatloaf for dinner, open your mouth and say so. You have no grounds to resent it when you get liver and onions.


Yep, I can't agree more in theory but it clearly doesn't fly in practice. If only it were so simple as wanting meatloaf. But I think most would rather tolerate liver and onions than their non-existent sex life. If a woman doesn't or can't share or help, then it's up to their partner to learn how to please her without her help in order to make sex enjoyable for her so that she will want to have sex with him. If they don't want to improve their love-making skills, then they don't want to improve their sex life. "She won't help me" is no excuse because there are still ways he can learn. Accepting that she won't help and blaming her for their lack of a sex life is what's not helpful to him. Finding ways to make it better for her is what makes it better for him. He has to accept that or do without. Those are his options.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

As far as I know, there is no solution to this problem, except in some rare cases where the LD spouse has an epiphany. You learn to cope, or you leave - there is no other solution. In my case, I left.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Star, I understand what you are saying, I think. It is like the idea that you don't want to have to tell someone what you want, you want them to know. If you tell them, then it isn't the same. I also get that some people may not know what they want, but I would argue that those people most likely do know but cannot say it to themselves, much less anyone else.

I think husbands bristle at your words, for a few reasons:
1. You make it solely their fault and responsibility.
2. You often say things in a way that can be easily taken as insulting.
3. You are telling them to do something that they are unable to do.

I want to address 1 and 3, because I don't really care about 2.

1. There is no debate, it is absolutely not their sole responsibility or fault. Even if you want to say that they should take charge, learn, do whatever, to make their wives happy. How did we get this far into the marriage? Why did she marry a guy that doesn't do it for her and lead him on to thinking things were ok? No matter what you think 'should' happen, it took two people to get here. The wife walked into the marriage with the same responsibilities as the husband and she doesn't get to shirk those, just because 'sub-conscious stuff'.

3. The people you are giving this advice to are not going to be able to put this advice in to practice most of the time. They are in situations where they might be lucky to get a few minutes to have sex, much less time to experiment or learn. Additionally, the same woman that is unable to say or know what she wants, is not going to be able to clearly articulate what it was that they might have done right this time. You are left playing a game of mastermind (anyone remember that game?), except you don't get much feedback or many chances. You might think that if you got it right once, that you would get more chances, but things don't work like that. It takes a long time to undo damage done in relationships.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> and.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bou said "So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes" in response to my post. Most folks reading that would interpret you implying that I had somehow said some fault for going to prostitutes rests with the wife. 

But to the central core of this discussion. You say that if the wife can't/won't express her needs, it's up to the man to figure them out. So what you're really saying here is that it's all the man's responsibility _because the woman has already abdicated or abandoned her part of the responsibility. _

That's a pretty crappy way to approach a relationship. Maybe I should abandon my responsibility to earn a living... then suddenly it's 100% my wife's responsibility to bring home the bacon Or I could abandon my responsibility for child rearing. Then my wife can do all the hard work and I get to skate. Pretty sweet deal there. Or I can live in poverty with unruly kids and complain that my wife is incompetent. 

Path to success right there folks.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Tasorundo said:


> Star, I understand what you are saying, I think. It is like the idea that you don't want to have to tell someone what you want, you want them to know. If you tell them, then it isn't the same. I also get that some people may not know what they want, but I would argue that those people most likely do know but cannot say it to themselves, much less anyone else.
> 
> I think husbands bristle at your words, for a few reasons:
> 1. You make it solely their fault and responsibility.
> ...


Yep. 
You're no good because you don't have adequate experience with this partner. 
You're partner doesn't want to do it because you're no good. 
Death spiral right there where nothing's ever gonna get better.... the only way to break out is to practice, and communicate. And oh, by the way, the two can embrace the joy of discovery and getting to know each other better.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Well, we know how star fixed her sex issues in marriage. She divorced, so there ya go.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Star, I understand what you are saying, I think. It is like the idea that you don't want to have to tell someone what you want, you want them to know. If you tell them, then it isn't the same. I also get that some people may not know what they want, but I would argue that those people most likely do know but cannot say it to themselves, much less anyone else.
> 
> I think husbands bristle at your words, for a few reasons:
> 1. You make it solely their fault and responsibility.
> ...


1. The first part of your response, I don't agree. If you keep refusing to accept that if he wants sex he is going to have to learn how to make her want to want sex, then we will never agree. I'm trying to convince people to see that it's just that simple. You just like to argue by continually disagreeing with me. There is a guy in the thread who touched on the same things that I'm saying, but you didn't address your displeasure to him. MaiChi said the same things that I've been saying all the long, which prompted me to acknowledge her comments and add to the discussion, but you didn't address her either. We don't have to keep doing this. You don't want to be responsible so you don't want to accept that what you want, you are the one who has to make it happen. Or keep complaining that it's not happening because she won't tell you how. It's up to you.

The last part of your response introduces a different type of woman into the discussion. I'm not trying to address every type of woman that exists, and resentful women are not part of the topic.

2. You didn't address it but to respond to your assertion, they can be insulted because they want to be insulted. Has nothing to do with the way I said anything in this thread and all the other times I said the same things. There's no sugar to sprinkle on top. They just don't appreciate it being said. But I won't stop saying it because it's going to click with someone at some point. 

3. The first part of your response here has nothing to do with the subject matter, so I won't address it since it doesn't apply being that that type of woman is in a different category of women than the categories referred to in this thread. I don't and won't try to address every type of woman that exists. 

Regarding the second part of your response, a woman wants what feels or felt good to her so if you can't repeat what you are certain you did right, it doesn't matter if she articulates or not. You acknowledge you did something right so obviously, there was a display or other response in order for you know that.

The last part of your response introduces a different type of woman again that is not discussed in my comments. I won't try to address all of your helter-skelter. Please try to focus so that we can engage in a consistent conversation.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I wasn't aware I was voicing displeasure. Perhaps that's what you want to see.....

I was just disagreeing, it takes two to tango. The wife cannot blame the husband not being able to read her mind. She is at fault for having unrealistic expectations.

Once they are at this point, they are either going to communicate, or divorce.

He isn't going to bang her back to life.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Bou said "So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes" in response to my post. Most folks reading that would interpret you implying that I had somehow said some fault for going to prostitutes rests with the wife.


I see that. I was responding to a combination of both references (yours and MaiChi's) but should have clarified. Sorry about that, it's not the way I meant it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

StarFires said:


> Yep, I can't agree more in theory but it clearly doesn't fly in practice. If only it were so simple as wanting meatloaf. But I think most would rather tolerate liver and onions than their non-existent sex life. If a woman doesn't or can't share or help, then it's up to their partner to learn how to please her without her help in order to make sex enjoyable for her so that she will want to have sex with him. If they don't want to improve their love-making skills, then they don't want to improve their sex life. "She won't help me" is no excuse because there are still ways he can learn. Accepting that she won't help and blaming her for their lack of a sex life is what's not helpful to him. Finding ways to make it better for her is what makes it better for him.* He has to accept that or do without. Those are his options.*


*

*

Sorry, no. If I have to guess which song I'm supposed to sing for my supper every night, I'm going to say screw it and go to Taco Bell. Life is too short for that nonsense.

Women have no problem sending their steak back to the kitchen until it reaches that perfect shade of pink in the middle she has in her mind's eye or having a shoe sales person drag out ten pairs of shoes to try on; but, when it comes to one of the most important aspects of their marriages they're going to clam up and say read my mind? Hogwash. It's their responsibility to meet their spouses half-way. If they're too shy to say "that feels good" or do this or that, then they're too immature to be having sex.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> [/B]
> 
> Sorry, no. If I have to guess which song I'm supposed to sing for my supper every night, I'm going to say screw it and go to Taco Bell. Life is too short for that nonsense.
> 
> Women have no problem sending their steak back to the kitchen until it reaches that perfect shade of pink in the middle she has in her mind's eye or having a shoe sales person drag out ten pairs of shoes to try on; but, when it comes to one of the most important aspects of their marriages they're going to clam up and say read my mind? Hogwash. It's their responsibility to meet their spouses half-way. If they're too shy to say "that feels good" or do this or that, then they're too immature to be having sex.


But, Blondilocks, don't confuse the crux of my statements. I'm again agreeing with your assertions about women, just as I have agreed with the guys making similar statements. Yes, of course, women should......and all that jazz. It sure would be a heck of a lot easier for men, wouldn't it?

But what women cannot/will not do, what they should do, and however immature they are is beside the point I'm making. I'm saying that if guys who are with such women - those who don't know or are too "immature" to express themselves - want a better sex life, then it's incumbent of them, it becomes their responsibility, to get on the ball learning by other sources how to please their woman so that she will want to have sex with them, as opposed to avoiding it or outright refusing because they are not satisfied. 

Guys don't have to do it. You, they, and everybody can keep asserting how ridiculous it is. Okay, so don't do it then. See who cares about that in the end. It sure doesn't affect me in the least, me being one or both of those types of women at some point or another in my life. Yes I left my first husband, as Tasorundo so contrarily pointed out. Of course, there were a number of issues, one of which was the catalist for me leaving (my mother told me I better leave because he quit his Post Office job to sell marijuana, of course she wanted her daughter and grandchild out of that environment) but I already wanted to leave him and just didn't know that I could go back home, so I was happy when she intervened. And I wanted to leave him because (of his emotional affair, didn't appreciate him quitting his job, and -) I was dissatisfied in the bedroom. At the time, I didn't even know that term as it applied to sexual relations. I only knew something was missing. He got his job back, apologized for everything, and asked me to come back, which I probably would have gone back, except I felt that one thing couldn't be fixed and I didn't want to spend the rest of my life like that. I sure didn't know how to fix it and neither did he, so there was no point. As I've stated before, however, he did try to please me. He just didn't know how to do the things he was trying to do and I didn't know how to instruct him. The bottom line is he and I were too young and both too inexperienced and immature. We were playing house basically. My first boyfriend after him was a guy who made no attempt to please a woman. He just got in and got out (but even that felt good, just not satisfying). The one after that a year later was my first boyfriend that was a good lover. He's the one who learned from books, and he was 2 years younger than my husband (husband was 3 years older than me), so I suppose "too young" isn't really an excuse.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

And honestly, girlie, I don't even know how you just compared a woman's most personal, intimate, and vulnerable sensibilities, such as being naked and spread eagle, to sending back her steak dinner.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Starfires you say you speak for quite a few women.

Well I’m going to do the same.

There is a large number of women (mostly under a certain age) who DO know what they want, do know how to ask for it, and do get great results because of it.

So I want guys to understand, there are women like you who apparently will not speak about what you actually want, and women like me who make sure my lover knows how to please me. And men do have a choice in who they end up with. Some have accidentally ended up with women like you, and I want them to know women like me exist. And there is no small shortage of us either. 

I don’t think men should stand for what you are asking them to stand for. Every decent lover I have ever had required me to be able to state my preferences and discuss what I like and want like a sexually empowered adult. Men are not just tip toeing around sex because they are afraid to mess up and not get laid. They are saying hey advocate for your own needs and so will I and if you can’t do that I don’t want to play.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Number of marriages fixed with the starfires method: 0, including starfires' own marriage.

Maybe if you stopped talking like such an expert and then deflecting everything by saying, not this type, or that type. WTF is the type that it applies to and how do you know any of these women are that type?

Also, you even state in your own marriage that he tried and failed, both of you failed at the bedroom. Now, I will say that it most likely failed because he seems to be a pretty crappy partner and I guess a crappy lover, but you wouldn't have given him a chance either way. If the sex blew your mind, he would still be a crappy partner.

A crappy partner is also the one that cannot articulate what they want, but are upset they do not get it.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

OP is long gone.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

That's cool, still on my first marriage and we had sex 5 times this weekend.

Tell me how to do better.

Also, we got there by communicating, like adults. I did not have to solve a puzzle and cross my fingers. We talked, like adults.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

StarFires said:


> And honestly, girlie, I don't even know how you just compared a woman's most personal, intimate, and vulnerable sensibilities, such as being naked and spread eagle, to sending back her steak dinner.


It's easy when you consider that sex is far, far more important than a steak dinner, girlie. FTR, I have a decade on you and was a virgin when I met my husband. We managed to figure it out. 

All it takes is love and willingness. It's actually not loving, not kind and not helpful to let your husband wander around in the dark and then punish them when they kick over the spittoon.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Bou said "So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes" in response to my post. Most folks reading that would interpret you implying that I had somehow said some fault for going to prostitutes rests with the wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or...

Stop meeting her needs for intimate conversation and acts of service.

Then repeat ad nauseam:

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."

Star's approach is geared toward bringing out emotional dominance in the male partner. An emotionally dominant partner assumes all responsibility for what happens or fails to happen within the relationship.

Here's the rub.

Many men are unwilling or unable to do so.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

StarFires said:


> 1. The first part of your response, I don't agree. If you keep refusing to accept that if he wants sex he is going to have to learn how to make her want to want sex, then we will never agree. I'm trying to convince people to see that it's just that simple. You just like to argue by continually disagreeing with me. There is a guy in the thread who touched on the same things that I'm saying, but you didn't address your displeasure to him. MaiChi said the same things that I've been saying all the long, which prompted me to acknowledge her comments and add to the discussion, but you didn't address her either. We don't have to keep doing this. You don't want to be responsible so you don't want to accept that what you want, you are the one who has to make it happen. Or keep complaining that it's not happening because she won't tell you how. It's up to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would agree that your approach is simple.

However, simple does not equal easy.

And let's face it...

Am I willing to extend myself well out of my comfort zone for somebody who's unwilling to reciprocate?

I'm not. Been there. Done that. Never again.

If a partner wants to feel irreplaceable, he/she needs to start by actually being irreplaceable.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> I wasn't aware I was voicing displeasure. Perhaps that's what you want to see.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're missing part of the nuance of her approach.

It's not that the husband can't read her mind. It's that the woman doesn't necessarily know in her mind what works, or how it works.

My real question is where does self-awareness factor into this?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > Bou said "So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes" in response to my post. Most folks reading that would interpret you implying that I had somehow said some fault for going to prostitutes rests with the wife.
> ...


I was pretty young when my exh and I met. Not inexperienced but compared to after my sex life with him, definitely a newb in some ways. 

A couple of times I had my eyes rolled back in my head but he didn’t know why or what I was feeling at that moment, so he would ask me. At first I found it almost impossible to answer. Like my tongue was locked down due to my brain being shorted out with pleasure. 

I would try to talk and would stammer and he’d laugh to lighten the mood. But then he would say but seriously, we are new to each other and I want to know what is and isn’t great for you. He did not want me to go into a sexual trance and just enjoy myself without his direct interaction.

Also he just insisted on being able to communicate during sex. Which was new to me. Seemed like most men would not say that much themselves during sex. I was always more verbal and wanted to talk but had a hard time sorting out my head during high passion. I still did at times though (and always did to give instructions on how my body works and things I need).

So after a few times I learned to pull myself enough out of a sexual trance to also be able to say exactly what is working so well for me in that moment. It may be as simple as being able to say “you just look so sexy right now” or “the way it feels when you lay on top of me, it makes me melt”. He would maybe follow up to get more out of me or maybe he would be fine with that.

I then learned to ask him questions. Like how does that feel baby? Or is this a good angle. These can be worded very seductively and I may know for sure it is going well but I just want to interact with him.

Eventually I was able to communicate fully and openly with a clear head during sex. Now I will never do anything less (and can’t really be with someone who can’t do this).

I don’t mean we are talking constantly. But we do talk, give directions, give instructions, give feedback, and give affirmations. All of these are done in a sexy manner. It’s just plain fun.

So I’m not saying most women are as verbal as I am but I think what blondilocks said (so much more ladylike than me here) is the same thing. It’ shouldn’t be a problem to expect or be expected to share your inner sexual experiences with your mate verbally.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Or...
> 
> Stop meeting her needs for intimate conversation and acts of service.
> 
> ...


Been there, done that. 

Made things worse. 

Returned to original behavior, things returned to our normal.

You see, withholding is coercion, which can just add resentment. Even if the coerced changes, it is done under duress, not from the heart. May as well have duty sex, cuz that's pretty much what it is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > Or...
> ...


I think there are differences in the way some women will react to what farside did. His wife eventually reacted positively to it. So his theory may be that if you tried it longer you may have seen a different reaction from her.

But I don’t think you would. I think far’s wife was more sexual with him at one time, whereas your wife has not wavered.

I think in your case your wife would eventually leave you if you did want far did.

Different women.

Also I think far’s wife was at one time a lot meaner to him than I’ve ever heard you say your wife has been.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Tasorundo said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't aware I was voicing displeasure. Perhaps that's what you want to see.....
> ...


My main push back is that she is saying it’s not a woman’s place to take that self awareness and use it even if she has it. 

Like she knows now what she wants but refuses to speak of it because how dare he expect her to do something that is uncomfortable, regardless of what he wants or what is normal and expected.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Been there, done that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's only coercion if you are doing it with the intent of getting a better sex life...which is exactly why I don't do it for that reason.

Instead, I am accepting that my sex life is sub standard, and rather than continue to be of service to my wife while building resentment, I do exactly that which does not build resentment.

My wife tried to frame it much the same way...tried as in past tense. 

Frankly, I don't care how she frames it. If my partner can't concern herself with what is important to me in a marriage, why on Earth would I care how she feels about me doing...less?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> It's only coercion if you are doing it with the intent of getting a better sex life...which is exactly why I don't do it for that reason.
> 
> Instead, I am accepting that my sex life is sub standard, and rather than continue to be of service to my wife while building resentment, I do exactly that which does not build resentment.
> 
> ...


Okay, now I'm tracking. Thanks.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think there are differences in the way some women will react to what farside did. His wife eventually reacted positively to it. So his theory may be that if you tried it longer you may have seen a different reaction from her.
> 
> But I don’t think you would. I think far’s wife was more sexual with him at one time, whereas your wife has not wavered.
> 
> ...


I think this post is pretty accurate regarding F2.

She does have a tendency to be overtly combative with people she does not respect. I was on that list at one time...and occasionally return to it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> It's easy when you consider that sex is far, far more important than a steak dinner, girlie. FTR, I have a decade on you and was a virgin when I met my husband. We managed to figure it out.
> 
> All it takes is love and willingness. It's actually not loving, not kind and not helpful to let your husband wander around in the dark and then punish them when they kick over the spittoon.


Very early on my (future) wife guided me rather explicitly/technically in all things digital, 30 years later it is still serving us well. 

I get sometimes it’s hard to say what you like because maybe you don’t know, but please say what you don’t like (because you do know that). It’s still valuable feedback. 

That and an honest medium rare steak with Zinfandel...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> You're missing part of the nuance of her approach.
> 
> It's not that the husband can't read her mind. It's that the woman doesn't necessarily know in her mind what works, or how it works.
> 
> ...


I understand that, but that doesn't remove her responsibility to work through the issue. It is not her husbands job to figure out something even she cannot.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I think there are more women with similar views to Starfire...but not necessarily to that level. When I was married my wife would occasionally host the neighborhood book club. One year it was the secret santa night. One mom gave a pair of thong underwear as sort of a gag gift to another mom. When my wife told me about it afterwards I found it very interesting . A little more than half the woman thought it was cool and funny. But a small percentage were like ewwww, she has to have sex with her husband, and they were serious. It was like they felt sorry for the wives that had to do it. I knew one of the guys that was married to one of the non sexual women very well. In addition to hardly ever having sex, he wasn't even allowed to look at porn as a replacement, because it was "cheating". So whats my point? If you're married to someone like that. There is no secret way to unlock her passion. Its just not something they want. The constant game of keep away is just something to keep you occupied. They know exactly what they want, and that list of wants does not include sex. It really is a duty to them. One that they became very adept at avoiding. Of course I found this all ironic, because the book club was pretty much always reading books with graphic sexual content. Go figure......none of this is science of course, just a small snapshot of my corner in suburban America.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

StarFires,

I'm going to respectfully disagree here.

I have zero doubt that lots of times the issue is that the woman is sexually dissatisfied, and that at least some of that time the problem is compounded by the lady's inability or unwillingness to explain her preferences. I don't think that's the problem 100% of the time, since there's lots of environmental (for lack of a better term) factors at play:
* Job stress
* Extended family issues
* Issues with the kids or money.

But I don't agree it's the guy's job to figure it out on his own if his wife is not helping him out. A partnership applies to the bedroom too, and when one party checks out (of sex or anything else) then you no longer have a partnership.

My belief is that her being unable or unwilling to describe the problem does not excuse her from being part of the solution. If she has hangups serious enough to prevent talking about sex, address them (in therapy if necessary). If you are physically unaware of how your body works, experiment, see a sex therapist, get a book, etc. If you're too worn out to devote time to fixing the problem, reprioritize / cut some things out of your life. Taking shots in the dark doesn't really help IMO, especially since preferences can vary significantly from one woman to the next.

Additionally, a partner who tunes out and refuses to be part of the solution is likely to be that way outside the bedroom too. It's generally a personality issue that drives a lack of investment in the relationship more than a sex issue. IMO, women like that either think that the guy should be putting her first in general (which seems to be an issue where the father is not around) or just don't like the guy that much to begin with.

I've had this dynamic in a few of my relationships. Regardless of the precise cause of the issues, that lack of interest in something not immediately pleasurable shows up in other areas of the relationship. And the ladies I know who acted like that are in unhappy relationships or alone / lonely (not by choice). Knowing how it works and how these ladies have significant ongoing relationship issues, I just refuse to make it 100% my issue. If she won't work with me to solve the problem, there's plenty of ladies who will work on it and press through.



StarFires said:


> Yep, I can't agree more in theory but it clearly doesn't fly in practice. If only it were so simple as wanting meatloaf. But I think most would rather tolerate liver and onions than their non-existent sex life. If a woman doesn't or can't share or help, then it's up to their partner to learn how to please her without her help in order to make sex enjoyable for her so that she will want to have sex with him. If they don't want to improve their love-making skills, then they don't want to improve their sex life. "She won't help me" is no excuse because there are still ways he can learn. Accepting that she won't help and blaming her for their lack of a sex life is what's not helpful to him. Finding ways to make it better for her is what makes it better for him. He has to accept that or do without. Those are his options.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> Star's approach is geared toward bringing out emotional dominance in the male partner. An emotionally dominant partner assumes all responsibility for what happens or fails to happen within the relationship.
> 
> Here's the rub.
> 
> Many men are unwilling or unable to do so.


Assuming all responsibility for what happens in a relationship (or assigning all responsibility to someone else) is a fool's errand. In a management principles course, one of the principles taught is that you don't assign blame to someone who does not have the power to obtain the desired outcome. That should be obvious, but often isn't when you're in the middle of your own situation.

Accordingly, I'll accept responsibility for treating my partner well, promoting a home environment conducive to intimacy, being a reasonably attractive person, attempting to learn about sex techniques in general and her particular intimate preferences, and so on. Those are all things I can do 100% on my own.

If I do all that and she still refuses to engage sexually, then that's her fault and I'll act accordingly. She and she alone has to decide to be part of the solution and continue to engage sexually on a regular basis. To blame someone else for her refusal to do so is idiocy.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

DTO said:


> I have zero doubt that lots of times the issue is that the woman is sexually dissatisfied, and that at least some of that time the problem is compounded by the lady's inability or unwillingness to explain her preferences. I don't think that's the problem 100% of the time, since there's lots of environmental (for lack of a better term) factors at play:


I didn't read any further than that because I didn't feel like wasting any more of my time on all this back and forth silliness. Since you quoted me twice, it's safe for me to assume you also read but ignored other statements just like you ignored my statements that you quoted and chose to only to addrees me with totally eroneous statements about things I said nothing about.



StarFires said:


> The last part of your response introduces a different type of woman into the discussion. *I'm not trying to address every type of woman that exists*, and resentful women are not part of the topic.
> 
> 3. The first part of your response here has nothing to do with the subject matter, so I won't address it since it doesn't apply being that that type of woman is in a different category of women than the categories referred to in this thread. *I don't and won't try to address every type of woman that exists*.





DTO said:


> If I do all that and she still refuses to engage sexually, then that's her fault and I'll act accordingly. She and she alone has to decide to be part of the solution and continue to engage sexually on a regular basis. To blame someone else for her refusal to do so is idiocy.


What is idiocy is for someone to tell me my statements don't apply 100 percent of the time when I noted, several times I might add, that I'm not talking about all kinds of women. You began, in the first statement that I quoted from you, to acknowledge my reference to women who are reticent to offer guidance and those who are unable to assist due to their own lack of knowledge. Those are the types of women I referred to ONLY, and clearly stated twice that I'm not talking about every type of woman that exists. So why on earth did you think I needed to be told _"I don't think that's the problem 100% of the time"_? You don't find some kind of idiocy in that after telling me my statements - that you acknowledged but ignored - are idocy? And then what did you do? You actually had the nerve to introduce yet an entirely different type of woman, one who "refuses to engage sexually" and really thought you were informing me of something. I will tell you like I told Taosurondo (sp?) please try to focus on the subject matter so we may have a consistent conversation because you are all over the place. 

Discuss all the different types of women you want since you have to bring up old threads wanting to be heard so badly, but please don't use all types of women or any other types of women in dispute of my comments as if I referred to them when I clearly stated I am not talking about all types of women, only the two types that I mentioned over and over and over and.....


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

StarFires said:


> I didn't read any further than that because I didn't feel like wasting any more of my time on all this back and forth silliness. Since you quoted me twice, it's safe for me to assume you also read but ignored other statements just like you ignored my statements that you quoted and chose to only to addrees me with totally eroneous statements about things I said nothing about.
> 
> What is idiocy is for someone to tell me my statements don't apply 100 percent of the time when I noted, several times I might add, that I'm not talking about all kinds of women. You began, in the first statement that I quoted from you, to acknowledge my reference to women who are reticent to offer guidance and those who are unable to assist due to their own lack of knowledge. Those are the types of women I referred to ONLY, and clearly stated twice that I'm not talking about every type of woman that exists. So why on earth did you think I needed to be told _"I don't think that's the problem 100% of the time"_? You don't find some kind of idiocy in that after telling me my statements - that you acknowledged but ignored - are idocy? And then what did you do? You actually had the nerve to introduce yet an entirely different type of woman, one who "refuses to engage sexually" and really thought you were informing me of something. I will tell you like I told Taosurondo (sp?) please try to focus on the subject matter so we may have a consistent conversation because you are all over the place.
> 
> Discuss all the different types of women you want since you have to bring up old threads wanting to be heard so badly, but please don't use all types of women or any other types of women in dispute of my comments as if I referred to them when I clearly stated I am not talking about all types of women, only the two types that I mentioned over and over and over and.....


Ok it doesn't look like I conveyed my message clearly. So, in a nutshell: it's never appropriate for a guy to take on the whole blame for a bad sex life or the sole responsibility in fixing it. There are issues I mentioned that admittedly are outside the scope of what you are trying to discuss.

But even in those cases you are addressing (where women don't know what they like or don't want to discuss it) it still shouldn't be up to the guy 100%. Sex is a partnership issue and both partners need to be part of the solution. I expect that my partner would put in the effort the fix the problem, even if it requires some personal sacrifice.

I've been involved women belonging to one of the categories you describe (not knowing her sexual likes or not wanting to talk about them). I've learned that a refusal to learn about one's own body (if not knowing what she likes is the problem) or to discuss what works in bed is rooted in selfishness. It's the lady saying "fixing the problem doesn't sound like fun and I don't care enough to change the way I do things". 

That selfishness is not just a sex thing. It shows up in other aspects of the relationship as well. Unless you are okay with having a relationship with a generally selfish person, you're better off walking away than trying to work it all out by yourself.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is deeply sad. Unfortunately there are women who view sex as a "chore" that they have to do for their husbands. Sometimes it may be because of their husbands behavior, but sometimes it seems innate. There are also men who view sex the same way - but its even more difficult for their wives to discuss it. 




ReformedHubby said:


> I think there are more women with similar views to Starfire...but not necessarily to that level. When I was married my wife would occasionally host the neighborhood book club. One year it was the secret santa night. One mom gave a pair of thong underwear as sort of a gag gift to another mom. When my wife told me about it afterwards I found it very interesting . A little more than half the woman thought it was cool and funny. But a small percentage were like ewwww, she has to have sex with her husband, and they were serious. It was like they felt sorry for the wives that had to do it. I knew one of the guys that was married to one of the non sexual women very well. In addition to hardly ever having sex, he wasn't even allowed to look at porn as a replacement, because it was "cheating". So whats my point? If you're married to someone like that. There is no secret way to unlock her passion. Its just not something they want. The constant game of keep away is just something to keep you occupied. They know exactly what they want, and that list of wants does not include sex. It really is a duty to them. One that they became very adept at avoiding. Of course I found this all ironic, because the book club was pretty much always reading books with graphic sexual content. Go figure......none of this is science of course, just a small snapshot of my corner in suburban America.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

DTO said:


> But even in those cases you are addressing (where women don't know what they like or don't want to discuss it) it still shouldn't be up to the guy 100%. Sex is a partnership issue and both partners need to be part of the solution. I expect that my partner would put in the effort the fix the problem, even if it requires some personal sacrifice.


Others have said similarly to me through the thread (and to me in other threads of this same topic), in which I agreed and fully understand. As I said, I get it. But I would like you and others to understand that what I'm saying is not a pressure or responsibility I am trying to place on men. It's a responsibility you have to assume for yourself for your own sake in order to get what you want. It's easy to complain about one's sex life and it's easy for a guy to blame his girlfriend or wife and say what she should be doing, but that isn't going to get him anywhere, at least not where he wants to be. It's as simple a prospect as saying "If I want a job, I better go out and get one." It's your own responsibility for your own sake to take the initiative to do, whereas nobody is forcing you to get a job.

Where women are concerned, you call it selfishness, but I don't think it's a fair conclusion. While it might apply to some women, selfishness isn't what I'm referring to. In the instance of a woman who is reticent, it's not selfishness but fear, self-consciousness, and/or lack of self-assurance. In the instance of a woman who is inexperienced/unknowledgeable, well that's not selfishness either when you share nothing because you have nothing to share, no experience to source.

It's the usual discussion with the usual suspects every time. My statements really are not as broad as they are taken, and, therefore, don't universally apply as they are consumed and devoured just for the sake of argument. I say these things, and all the same people leap, but you need to stop being so sensitive because there is no scorn being directed at you/men just because I say take the responsibility if you want things to be better. I've explained many, many times in many different ways in many different threads to get my point across but every time I get responses so far out of the scope of my comments, or I get examples that don't apply from people wanting to disprove my theory. A couple weeks ago, my granddaughter complained that nobody would make friends with her (at the public pool she went to for the first time). I told her the same as you/anybody would tell a child with such a complaint as I don't doubt many have, "If no one takes the initiative to make friends with you, then you take the initiative to make friends with them." That's obviously an unrelated example, but the principle applies and it's as simple as that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

StarFires said:


> In the instance of a woman who is reticent, it's not selfishness but fear, self-consciousness, and/or lack of self-assurance. In the instance of a woman who is inexperienced/unknowledgeable, well that's not selfishness either when you share nothing because you have nothing to share, no experience to source.


To further clarify, a lady feeling fear or shame at the thought of sharing her sexual preferences does not make her selfish. Giving in to that, harming her partnerher and the relationship, IS selfish. 

Similarly, a lady who doesn't look forward to sex because she lacks the experience to know what works for her is not selfish. A lady who, as a result, ACTUALLY does avoid sex IS selfish.

The key here is what action the lady takes in these scenarios. Does she affirm that her partner and the relationship are important to her, or does she do what's easy / expedient right now?

Honestly, I would initiate a discussion and take the lead in fixing the issue. But I would expect my partner to cooperate and work towards a fix as well. In the first scenario, a good lady would shsre despite the discomfort. In the second scenario, a good lady would work on self-awareness and practice sex until it was good for both.

To borrow your analogy, I will go and make friends rather than wait for someone to come to me. But if those people don't want to put forth some effort, I'll find a new group of friends who WILL reciprocate.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

There you go with what you expect again. And also adding mention about a good partner. You, like others, just want to argue, but I'm not interested in trying to engage anymore with someone who, as I talk about the table, he constantly finds ridiculous ways to - rather than try to understand - talk about the chair and uses his discussion of the chair to tell me how wrong I am about the table. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't comprehend that analogy either because it's abstract, and the abstract nature and connotations of the scenario is what you refuse to understand. It's too bad that too many of the guys (because even one is too many) are in lockstep with you because some of them, if not many of them are with the type of women that I am talking about. A good sex life could be in their future, but they would rather listen to and agree with you. It's too bad they are listening to and agreeing with you in effort to absolve themselves of the responsibility of doing what is required for them to obtain their own desired results, instead of accepting that if they want something to happen, it's up to them to make it happen. They, like you, would rather label women with "she is selfish" or "she's not into sex" or "she wanted sex with other men but not with me". That last statement particularly, as often as I've heard/seen men say it, proves they refuse to get it. I'm telling you how it is for those types of women. But all you keep doing is arguing, which would get you nowhere with those women, yet you would just keep on arguing with them and calling them selfish and whatnot. So, for the hundredth time, if a man wants a good sex life or an improved sex life, it is up to him to improve it by ascertaining on his own how to make it good so that it's good for her and she will want to participate in sexual relations with him. You are claiming nothing because there is nothing to dispute about that. But keep on whistling in the storm to be heard but saying nothing and accomplishing nothing since you need to be right so badly.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DTO said:


> To further clarify, a lady feeling fear or shame at the thought of sharing her sexual preferences does not make her selfish. Giving in to that, harming her partnerher and the relationship, IS selfish.
> 
> Similarly, a lady who doesn't look forward to sex because she lacks the experience to know what works for her is not selfish. A lady who, as a result, ACTUALLY does avoid sex IS selfish.
> 
> ...


To each their own. Her advice is Rock solid and very accurate for a good number of women, my wife included.

I might want a sexual woman that is a good communicator and experimentor and is proactive in discovering her sexuality but I am married to a woman who is a lot like @StarFires and, since I wanted the improved sex life, I adapted and it improved.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> There you go with what you expect again. And also adding mention about a good partner. You, like others, just want to argue, but I'm not interested in trying to engage anymore with someone who, as I talk about the table, he constantly finds ridiculous ways to - rather than try to understand - talk about the chair and uses his discussion of the chair to tell me how wrong I am about the table. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't comprehend that analogy either because it's abstract, and the abstract nature and connotations of the scenario is what you refuse to understand. It's too bad that too many of the guys (because even one is too many) are in lockstep with you because some of them, if not many of them are with the type of women that I am talking about. A good sex life could be in their future, but they would rather listen to and agree with you. It's too bad they are listening to and agreeing with you in effort to absolve themselves of the responsibility of doing what is required for them to obtain their own desired results, instead of accepting that if they want something to happen, it's up to them to make it happen. They, like you, would rather label women with "she is selfish" or "she's not into sex" or "she wanted sex with other men but not with me". That last statement particularly, as often as I've heard/seen men say it, proves they refuse to get it. I'm telling you how it is for those types of women. But all you keep doing is arguing, which would get you nowhere with those women, yet you would just keep on arguing with them and calling them selfish and whatnot. *So, for the hundredth time, if a man wants a good sex life or an improved sex life, it is up to him to improve it by ascertaining on his own how to make it good so that it's good for her and she will want to participate in sexual relations with him. *You are claiming nothing because there is nothing to dispute about that. But keep on whistling in the storm to be heard but saying nothing and accomplishing nothing since you need to be right so badly.


That's still as one-sided as ever, no matter how you couch it. It's beyond ridiculous. Yes, a man should do everything he can... but in most cases, he can't do it alone. Some input.... some feedback... is necessary. It's hopelessly unrealistic to think that this is just magically going to work out. You may as well buy a lottery ticket. 

This is not just some stubborn man refusing to get it. This is basic logic applicable to all human beings. Really, what man wants to be married to a woman who won't take one lousy stinking percent of the responsibility for her and her husband to have a mutually satisfying sex life? Anybody that is that closed off and that disengaged... and that unwilling to put out a little effort on behalf of her relationship isn't relationship material in the first place.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Most men will work hard to get consistrnt sex from their partner. Fault them for naivety, but not trying. The woman is atleast 50% of the problem in these situations. A sexless marriage or one ruined by adultery leads to the same result, a ****ty marriage. Its selfish for one partner to deny the other of such a integral part of marriage. No man would ever agree beforehand to such an arrangement.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

StarFires said:


> Others have said similarly to me through the thread (and to me in other threads of this same topic), in which I agreed and fully understand. As I said, I get it. But I would like you and others to understand that what I'm saying is not a pressure or responsibility I am trying to place on men. It's a responsibility you have to assume for yourself for your own sake in order to get what you want. It's easy to complain about one's sex life and it's easy for a guy to blame his girlfriend or wife and say what she should be doing, but that isn't going to get him anywhere, at least not where he wants to be. It's as simple a prospect as saying "If I want a job, I better go out and get one." It's your own responsibility for your own sake to take the initiative to do, whereas nobody is forcing you to get a job.
> 
> Where women are concerned, you call it selfishness, but I don't think it's a fair conclusion. While it might apply to some women, selfishness isn't what I'm referring to. In the instance of a woman who is reticent, it's not selfishness but fear, self-consciousness, and/or lack of self-assurance. In the instance of a woman who is inexperienced/unknowledgeable, well that's not selfishness either when you share nothing because you have nothing to share, no experience to source.
> 
> It's the usual discussion with the usual suspects every time. My statements really are not as broad as they are taken, and, therefore, don't universally apply as they are consumed and devoured just for the sake of argument. I say these things, and all the same people leap, but you need to stop being so sensitive because there is no scorn being directed at you/men just because I say take the responsibility if you want things to be better. I've explained many, many times in many different ways in many different threads to get my point across but every time I get responses so far out of the scope of my comments, or I get examples that don't apply from people wanting to disprove my theory. A couple weeks ago, my granddaughter complained that nobody would make friends with her (at the public pool she went to for the first time). I told her the same as you/anybody would tell a child with such a complaint as I don't doubt many have, "If no one takes the initiative to make friends with you, then you take the initiative to make friends with them." That's obviously an unrelated example, but the principle applies and it's as simple as that.


I think the key to the whole thing is to view it not so much as who is responsible or who is to blame, but instead viewing it as whether or not they are compatible.

In the instances where the HD partner is unwilling to leave the marriage, pursuing your approach is a good idea...at least for enough time to determine if they can live that way.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's still as one-sided as ever, no matter how you couch it. It's beyond ridiculous. Yes, a man should do everything he can... but in most cases, he can't do it alone. Some input.... some feedback... is necessary. It's hopelessly unrealistic to think that this is just magically going to work out. You may as well buy a lottery ticket.
> 
> This is not just some stubborn man refusing to get it. This is basic logic applicable to all human beings. Really, what man wants to be married to a woman who won't take one lousy stinking percent of the responsibility for her and her husband to have a mutually satisfying sex life? Anybody that is that closed off and that disengaged... and that unwilling to put out a little effort on behalf of her relationship isn't relationship material in the first place.


Taking what she said in context with the full amount of information she is talking about on this subject, what you are saying is not what she is saying.

There are a lot of women who straight up don't necessarily know what does it for them until they have it done to them and it feels good.

She is speaking from experience and I am one who can back her up. I took her advice on this subject and now I'm experienced and can attest she is absolutely correct if you don't take sections of her lengthy posts out of context with the rest of her lengthy posts.:grin2:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Taking what she said in context with the full amount of information she is talking about on this subject, what you are saying is not what she is saying.
> 
> There are a lot of women who straight up don't necessarily know what does it for them until they have it done to them and it feels good.
> 
> She is speaking from experience and I am one who can back her up. I took her advice on this subject and now I'm experienced and can attest she is absolutely correct if you don't take sections of her lengthy posts out of context with the rest of her lengthy posts.:grin2:





ConanHub said:


> Taking what she said in context with the full amount of information she is talking about on this subject, what you are saying is not what she is saying.
> 
> There are a lot of women who straight up don't necessarily know what does it for them until they have it done to them and it feels good.
> 
> She is speaking from experience and I am one who can back her up. I took her advice on this subject and now I'm experienced and can attest she is absolutely correct if you don't take sections of her lengthy posts out of context with the rest of her lengthy posts.:grin2:


Okay, so buy lots of lottery tickets then. How many partners ya' gotta' cycle through until you find one who knows what your particular button is? And what are the odds that that man isn't already taken? Really, putting all your eggs in somebody else's basket is a pretty pathetic approach for any human of either gender to steer any aspect of their life by. For God's sake, take _some _agency for your own fulfillment.

Geez, at least put a _little _effort into it. Be willing to experiment... don't just wait for some magic man to find the right recipe for your own personal secret sauce. Maybe masturbate once in a while and find out for yourself what strokes you like. Share the results with your partner. Read a freakin' book for chrissakes! Learn the range of things that work for various women and you at least have a starting point! Have fun exploring, but to do this, you have to be an active participant, and that participation means being involved, and committed, up front. 

It's silly enough when women expect men to know all about what makes them tick, but to expect it when they can't even say what makes themselves tick? Ridiculous. 

Oh, and how did you get experienced if your lady wasn't willing to work with you? Trial and error? Or did you learn from someone else and that just happened to translate to your current gal?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Taking what she said in context with the full amount of information she is talking about on this subject, what you are saying is not what she is saying.


All they do, because it's all they can do, is keep talking about situations and types of women that I am not at all talking about, instead of listening and figuring out the woman they are with and how to please her, rather than just labeling her. Beating me over the head with a baseball bat for not playing baseball in a cricket game won't win them any type of game.

My lengthy posts? :rofl:


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

It sounds like Starfires is saying that if you want a change in your relationship, it is up to you to make the change. Sounds right to me.

If you want women to find you more physically attractive, put down the carbs and hit the gym. Improve your clothes, hair style, hygiene, etc.

If you want your wife to enjoy sex more, figure out how to change what you are doing to make it more enjoyable for her.

If sex is something you need as a man, and you want her to give you sex to fulfill your needs, improve your relationship so that she’ll care more about your needs.

Either women need to change or you need to change. And the only thing you can change is you. Self-improvement is the way to go.

Call it “blaming the victim” if you like. But that means that your focus is on placing the blame instead of making change.

The other alternative is divorce.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> There you go with what you expect again. And also adding mention about a good partner. You, like others, just want to argue, but I'm not interested in trying to engage anymore with someone who, as I talk about the table, he constantly finds ridiculous ways to - rather than try to understand - talk about the chair and uses his discussion of the chair to tell me how wrong I am about the table. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't comprehend that analogy either because it's abstract, and the abstract nature and connotations of the scenario is what you refuse to understand.* It's too bad that too many of the guys (because even one is too many)* are in lockstep with you because some of them, if not many of them are with the type of women that I am talking about. A good sex life could be in their future, but they would rather listen to and agree with you. It's too bad they are listening to and agreeing with you in effort to absolve themselves of the responsibility of doing what is required for them to obtain their own desired results, instead of accepting that if they want something to happen, it's up to them to make it happen. They, like you, would rather label women with "she is selfish" or "she's not into sex" or "she wanted sex with other men but not with me". That last statement particularly, as often as I've heard/seen men say it, proves they refuse to get it. I'm telling you how it is for those types of women. But all you keep doing is arguing, which would get you nowhere with those women, yet you would just keep on arguing with them and calling them selfish and whatnot. So, for the hundredth time, if a man wants a good sex life or an improved sex life, it is up to him to improve it by ascertaining on his own how to make it good so that it's good for her and she will want to participate in sexual relations with him. You are claiming nothing because there is nothing to dispute about that. But keep on whistling in the storm to be heard but saying nothing and accomplishing nothing since you need to be right so badly.


You may recall a number of women taking issue with your position as well... don't make this a spurious accusation of mansplaining or a bogus war of the sexes attack.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's silly enough when women expect men to know all about what makes them tick, but to expect it when they can't even say what makes themselves tick? Ridiculous.
> 
> Oh, and how did you get experienced if your lady wasn't willing to work with you? Trial and error? Or did you learn from someone else and that just happened to translate to your current gal?


I was scrolling upward and my eyes fell on this. I couldn't read the first part of your post being to flabberghasted by this contradiction presented, per all the others, just for the sake of arguing. Sorry, Yeti, but surely you can see the inconsistency here.

You opposed every single thing I said, high-fived presented arguments to the contrary, and called something ridiculous that ConanHub said he did (which is what I've been saying)......and then asked him how he did it. 

Raising myself off the floor laughing so hard.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Okay, so buy lots of lottery tickets then. How many partners ya' gotta' cycle through until you find one who knows what your particular button is? And what are the odds that that man isn't already taken? Really, putting all your eggs in somebody else's basket is a pretty pathetic approach for any human of either gender to steer any aspect of their life by. For God's sake, take _some _agency for your own fulfillment.
> 
> Geez, at least put a _little _effort into it. Be willing to experiment... don't just wait for some magic man to find the right recipe for your own personal secret sauce. Maybe masturbate once in a while and find out for yourself what strokes you like. Share the results with your partner. Read a freakin' book for chrissakes! Learn the range of things that work for various women and you at least have a starting point! Have fun exploring, but to do this, you have to be an active participant, and that participation means being involved, and committed, up front.
> 
> ...


I'm going to wait for you to take a breath or two before I get into it.

You threw out a lot of negative terms and generally derisive remarks concerning my post.

I have been very successful in the sexual arena by almost anyone's standards and have been with many kinds of women.

There might be something to what I'm saying here given my knowledge.

I have also learned that unsavory truths are still truths regardless of how hard they are on the taste buds.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> It sounds like Starfires is saying that if you want a change in your relationship, it is up to you to make the change. Sounds right to me.
> 
> If you want women to find you more physically attractive, put down the carbs and hit the gym. Improve your clothes, hair style, hygiene, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't think you've read the entire thread with all her posts. 

She has specifically said that the man is 100% responsible for doing the right thing _in the bedroom_ and that the woman bears zero responsibility there. This statement was repeatedly made independent of physical fitness, attractiveness, romance or anything else. The discussion included examples of men who do all of that and still get no results in the bedroom.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

StarFires said:


> All they do, because it's all they can do, is keep talking about situations and types of women that I am not at all talking about, instead of listening and figuring out the woman they are with and how to please her, rather than just labeling her. Beating me over the head with a baseball bat for not playing baseball in a cricket game won't win them any type of game.
> 
> My lengthy posts? :rofl:


Your posts are lengthy and thick with information. I'm good with any sized posts but you might need to be a little more gentle with others when shoving something that size in our little forum.>


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You may recall a number of women taking issue with your position as well... don't make this a spurious accusation of mansplaining or a bogus war of the sexes attack.


Moot point. I'm not really certain how many times is required that I disclaim I'm not talking about every woman that exists, so those who take issue and don't agree with me obviously cannot relate because they are not the types of women I'm talking about. Do you get that part yet? Not to mention, they themselves presented numerous different types of women just like you and other guys keep doing, despite me NOT talking about THOSE types of women and disclaiming that I'm not.

My point is that there are men who are boyfriend or husband to the types of women I'm referring to. And some of you on this board arguing so vehemently with me are some of those men.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't think you've read the entire thread with all her posts.
> 
> She has specifically said that the man is 100% responsible for doing the right thing _in the bedroom_ and that the woman bears zero responsibility there. This statement was repeatedly made independent of physical fitness, attractiveness, romance or anything else. The discussion included examples of men who do all of that and still get no results in the bedroom.


She said that about men who are with some women of a certain nature like Mrs. C.

She added the caveat that once something is found to be enjoyable by her, it isn't like she is keeping quiet about it. If she is writhing in passion and climaxing like a freight train, you found something.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'm going to wait for you to take a breath or two before I get into it.
> 
> You threw out a lot of negative terms and generally derisive remarks concerning my post.
> 
> ...


Which changes nothing that I said. If she's not willing to put in some effort, she's not worth the effort (at least to me). I have no desire to be "successful in the sexual arena" with someone who's too lazy or ignorant to contribute. 

I agree that getting broader experience will improve your chances of knowing how to deal with any particular woman. That part is perfectly logical and sensible. Of course that may not be an option for many due to their morals or mores. And the same applies to the woman; the more dudes she beds, the more she'll get exposed to and better learn what she responds to.... and be able to subsequently share that with future partners, so again, it's wrong to make this 100% one sided. That's a self-evident truth right there, and it need not be unsavory.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't think you've read the entire thread with all her posts.


Correct.



> She has specifically said that the man is 100% responsible for doing the right thing _in the bedroom_ and that the woman bears zero responsibility there.


In another thread, she followed that up with techniques for hitting the A spot, O spot, G spot, cunnilingus, etc.

I’ve never bothered to learn those techniques. I figured if I give my wife a dozen orgasms with oral I can just enjoy intercourse. I believe I’ve given her one vaginal orgasm in 16 years. Having read Starfires techniques, I plan on trying them out ASAP.

My wife has no idea how to hit those spots, so I couldn’t learn any of that from her. She thought her ex was more satisfying because he ****ed her faster. I tried that but no joy. I figured out that he was simply better endowed, which she confirmed.

There are articles you can google from Men’s Health, Men’s Journal, Cosmo, etc, that have info on intercourse techniques. I blame myself for not researching this earlier.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> I was scrolling upward and my eyes fell on this. I couldn't read the first part of your post being to flabberghasted by this contradiction presented, per all the others, just for the sake of arguing. Sorry, Yeti, but surely you can see the inconsistency here.
> 
> You opposed every single thing I said, high-fived presented arguments to the contrary, and called something ridiculous that ConanHub said he did (which is what I've been saying)......and then asked him how he did it.
> 
> Raising myself off the floor laughing so hard.


Those two statements aren't contradictory. They are not mutually exclusive in any way. If you are reading that into it, it's clear you're the one unwilling to see any point of view other than your own.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> Moot point. I'm not really certain how many times is required that I disclaim I'm not talking about every woman that exists, so those who take issue and don't agree with me obviously cannot relate because they are not the types of women I'm talking about. Do you get that part yet? Not to mention, they themselves presented numerous different types of women just like you and other guys keep doing, despite me NOT talking about THOSE types of women and disclaiming that I'm not.
> 
> My point is that there are men who are boyfriend or husband to the types of women I'm referring to. And some of you on this board arguing so vehemently with me are some of those men.


Yeah, I get that you aren't talking about all women. 
The problem is that you still put, even if just for these women, 100% of the burden on the man. That's a problem. If you can't even put a little effort into this, what kind of partner are you? 

Hey, I'd like to put zero % of the effort into working, or child rearing, or taking care of the house and yard, but I know that I gotta' do my part. Hell, I do much MORE than my part. Always have. So if anybody should be okay with your premise it would be me. I actually thrive on pressure and high expectations. I get off on carrying the load. My wife even nicknamed me "Atlas" for carrying the world on my shoulders, and she appreciates that I do this in all aspects of our marriage. But what you've been saying seems to transcend any reasonable semblance of balance or partnership.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

If there’s a problem with your sex life, you should figure out what’s the cause (resentment, sexual dissatisfaction, medications, etc). Then you should take the steps you need to take to fix the problem(s), if they are fixable.

There. No blaming and no genders.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> She has specifically said that the man is 100% responsible for doing the right thing _in the bedroom_ and that the woman bears zero responsibility there.


Entirely untrue. It's a common human nature type of thing to lie about something in order make their own opinion to appear the superior assertion. 

Not anywhere in this thread, not in any post on this board, and not at any time in my entire life have I ever stated, written, or even thought "that the woman bears zero responsibility." Try that lie on some other board where you can't be called out.

Secondly.....



StarFires said:


> Others have said similarly to me through the thread (and to me in other threads of this same topic), in which I agreed and fully understand. As I said, I get it.* But I would like you and others to understand that what I'm saying is not a pressure or responsibility I am trying to place on men*. It's a responsibility you have to assume for yourself for your own sake in order to get what you want. It's easy to complain about one's sex life and it's easy for a guy to blame his girlfriend or wife and say what she should be doing, but that isn't going to get him anywhere, at least not where he wants to be. It's as simple a prospect as saying "If I want a job, I better go out and get one." It's your own responsibility for your own sake to take the initiative to do, whereas nobody is forcing you to get a job.


You tell him he hasn't read the whole thread, which could easily be taken as saying you have read the whole thread but chose to ignore 99% of my statements. The rest you're clearly lying about.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which changes nothing that I said. If she's not willing to put in some effort, she's not worth the effort (at least to me). I have no desire to be "successful in the sexual arena" with someone who's too lazy or ignorant to contribute.
> 
> I agree that getting broader experience will improve your chances of knowing how to deal with any particular woman. That part is perfectly logical and sensible. Of course that may not be an option for many due to their morals or mores. And the same applies to the woman; the more dudes she beds, the more she'll get exposed to and better learn what she responds to.... and be able to subsequently share that with future partners, so again, it's wrong to make this 100% one sided. That's a self-evident truth right there, and it need not be unsavory.


Since you have concluded your argument and it works in your universe, why be upset? Her information obviously doesn't apply to you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> Entirely untrue. It's a common human nature type of thing to lie about something in order make their own opinion to appear the superior assertion.
> 
> Not anywhere in this thread, not in any post on this board, and not at any time in my entire life have I ever stated, written, or even thought "that the woman bears zero responsibility." Try that lie on some other board where you can't be called out.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to go back through hundreds of posts to find them, but on more than one occasion you did say that them man needs to figure it out.... and assigned nothing to the woman. Nothing. 

Here is one example:
"So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes. If a guy is inadequate in his bedroom techniques, *the results are his fault alone.*"
That right there puts all the burden on the man. You made it his job to figure it out and completely absolved her of any responsibility. There's no way you can spin that to mean anything other than you letting the woman off the hook. Whether it's because she doesn't want to or can't is irrelevant. She's not helping and you're justifying it. 

You also said
""She won't help me" is no excuse because there are still ways he can learn. "
Which ignores the fact that there are also ways _she _can learn. Again, you make it 100% the man's responsibility rather than a shared responsibility.

This whole thread is laced with such nonsense. Such nonsense that you were equally called out by women as well as men, yet after saying it's just a bunch of men being stubborn, you completely dismiss and blow off that very relevant fact. 

Yes, I've kept up with this thread from the beginning. I've also applied logical thinking to it and don't accept faulty analysis. And, I'm backed up by a nearly unanimous chorus of posters of both genders. Other than Conan (who I usually agree with and always appreciate even when I don't), you're pretty much on an island here. As it should be as you have continually and unambiguously said exactly what you're denying in this post!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, I get that you aren't talking about all women.
> The problem is that you still put, even if just for these women, 100% of the burden on the man. That's a problem. If you can't even put a little effort into this, what kind of partner are you?
> 
> Hey, I'd like to put zero % of the effort into working, or child rearing, or taking care of the house and yard, but I know that I gotta' do my part. Hell, I do much MORE than my part. Always have. So if anybody should be okay with your premise it would be me. I actually thrive on pressure and high expectations. I get off on carrying the load. My wife even nicknamed me "Atlas" for carrying the world on my shoulders, and she appreciates that I do this in all aspects of our marriage. But what you've been saying seems to transcend any reasonable semblance of balance or partnership.


You're starting to freak me out here. You are misunderstanding some of what she is saying and getting upset about it. It clearly doesn't affect you. It absolutely applies to me and she helped me break new ground with my wife.

Mrs. C isn't an ignorant or unworthy mate like you are portraying the women that Star is talking about.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Since you have concluded your argument and it works in your universe, why be upset? Her information obviously doesn't apply to you.


I like to point out both illogic and injustice when I see it. The proportion that this will work for is almost infinitesimally small.

The worst, and potentially most damaging part of this whole approach is that it destroys any chance for a couple to come together who love each other but she's not getting off. If all the burden goes on him and he can't figure it out alone, they're never going to get there. A potentially great marriage is therefore ruined. That's why this, like all aspects of a marriage, need to be a joint venture.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nope, nope, nope. He wasn't correct in those statements he made as I proved above, but that's not why I quoted your comments here, and I don't think this is off topic because it jibes precisely with what I'm saying in this thread and many others. 

Firstly, bravo to you!

Secondly, your statement that I highlighted above is the perfect example, and I realize that's why you said it. But, I don't want you to feel in any way less adequate than your wife's previous lover(s) because you can, as you're saying you will, take my advice regarding technique and discovering what feels good to her. What your statement brought to mind was an experience I had with a guy who was only about 3 inches, not that I measured so he might have been somewhat larger or somewhat smaller. I don't know. I only know it didn't matter because it was the hottest, the steamiest, and the most passionate session I'd ever had in my life. Gutteral moans came from so deep down I didn't know I could moan like that. I sweated like I'd never sweated before or since (despite my husband being a really good lover, as well as several good lovers that came between my husband and this guy). When it was over, my hair was a dripping mess, which also never happened before or since. And my mind was blown (well that one has happened many times lol). What he did was use his tool to press right into my G-spot and not only that, but his strokes were long and lingering as if he were a much bigger size. Co-mingled with his own passion, he was driving me crazy at a slowww burrrning pace, applying pressure just the way my G-spot liked it. The only problem is he was one of those guys who didn't know, or didn't care, that women orgasm too, so he finished before I had a chance to, but it was so good that I still felt blown away....totally turned out afterward....and unable to walk.

Contrastly, I dated another guy years later who was about the same size, and.....no joy.....whatsoever. It gives credence to the adage that it's not the size of the ship, but the motion of ocean that counts.....and knowing what he's doing.

So I feel quite certain that every guy of every size is able to please a woman if he takes the time to learn how and to figure his woman out. At the time, there was no way I could possibly have known anything about advising that guy if guidance were what he needed. Instead, it was lesson learned for me in more ways than one. If your wife prefers a fast(er) pace, she'll still love your attention to her G-spot at the faster pace, as I've also learned.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You're starting to freak me out here. You are misunderstanding some of what she is saying and getting upset about it. It clearly doesn't affect you. It absolutely applies to me and she helped me break new ground with my wife.
> 
> Mrs. C isn't an ignorant or unworthy mate like you are portraying the women that Star is talking about.


So you were able to please Mrs. C as the result of the experience you gained beforehand. That's nice.

Now, what if you weren't so experienced and she left it all up to you.... where would you be? Would she have tried more rather than leaving it all up to you? You see, she didn't have to put the effort in because you had it covered. That's great. But if you didn't have it covered;
1. she'd have to help
or
2. she wouldn't help and you'd be in an unsatisfying relationship or divorced. 

So get that I'm not saying Mrs. C is an unworthy mate. I have no idea. I'd like to think that if you weren't able to lead her to the promised land on your own, she'd love you enough to pitch in. But if you two were a perfect match in every other way and she didn't, then a great marriage flounders and that would be a tragedy.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not going to go back through hundreds of posts to find them, but on more than one occasion you did say that them man needs to figure it out.... and assigned nothing to the woman. Nothing.
> 
> Here is one example:
> "So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes. If a guy is inadequate in his bedroom techniques, *the results are his fault alone.*"
> ...


The posts you quoted of hers were said in a tone to help certain men with certain women. Probably a lot of men with a lot of women to be fair. I believe much of her advice could be helpful to a lot of men regarding women. She actually gave technical advice as well so I wasn't just shooting in the dark.

It worked pretty damn good with Mrs. C and I'm positive it would have worked to improve sex with the majority of my past partners.

There are a lot of men who feel their sex life is lacking in numerous ways and here is a woman who gave insight into her sexual makeup to help.

If it isn't for you, spit it out. It worked great for us and we are breaking new ground with it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So you were able to please Mrs. C as the result of the experience you gained beforehand. That's nice.
> 
> Now, what if you weren't so experienced and she left it all up to you.... where would you be? Would she have tried more rather than leaving it all up to you? You see, she didn't have to put the effort in because you had it covered. That's great. But if you didn't have it covered;
> 1. she'd have to help
> ...


My experience only gave me confidence to figure Mrs. C out because she had to tell me some things she liked that she had learned with previous partners. I figured enough out to have her making animal noises in two days but there were some things I never figured out and Mrs. C simply wasn't equipped to help us expand and explore. Star started posting and , while abrasive, was really hitting home with me and my situation with my wife.

I took her advice and it worked very well to expand our bedroom repertoire.

She had her first gspot orgasm and has come closer than ever before to a straight up orgasm from intercourse.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> My experience only gave me confidence to figure Mrs. C out because she had to tell me some things she liked that she had learned with previous partners. I figured enough out to have her making animal noises in two days but there were some things I never figured out and Mrs. C simply wasn't equipped to help us expand and explore. Star started posting and , while abrasive, was really hitting home with me and my situation with my wife.
> 
> I took her advice and it worked very well to expand our bedroom repertoire.
> 
> She had her first gspot orgasm and has come closer than ever before to a straight up orgasm from intercourse.


Again, a great story. 

If she hadn't had the prior experience, and especially if you hadn't had the prior experience, it probably would have been rockier and taken longer. But even then, only if you're working together. Saying "it's entirely the man's fault" doesn't further that goal for anybody and can actually be very harmful advice for anyone in that position.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Oh heck, I stated the horribly awful and dreaded "every guy".
Oh no! Off with my head!


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## MapMan (Dec 11, 2015)

Mr.Married said:


> The female attraction plan
> No more Mr. nice guy
> Married man sex life primer
> his needs/her needs
> ...


I can't stress enough that if you read the book Married man sex life primer, you will understand why you are not attractive to your wife. If you follow what's in it, it will work like a magic trick. It worked for me and I am grateful.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The proportion that this will work for is almost infinitesimally small.


I'm actually convinced it might work for 50% or more myself of men in marriages with wives who have lost interest in sex or are not that satisfied with it or other sex issues.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, a great story.
> 
> If she hadn't had the prior experience, and especially if you hadn't had the prior experience, it probably would have been rockier and taken longer. But even then, only if you're working together. Saying "it's entirely the man's fault" doesn't further that goal for anybody and can actually be very harmful advice for anyone in that position.


That was an abrasive, blunt and untactful way of wording something to motivate men. I eat rough advice like candy if it is useful so I didn't bat an eye.

She could have used more tactfully worded advice but her information is is on target and I am not the only man on TAM that agrees.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not going to go back through hundreds of posts to find them, but on more than one occasion you did say that them man needs to figure it out.... and assigned nothing to the woman. Nothing.
> 
> Here is one example:
> "So no, it's not both their fault that she's unsatisfied and he goes to prostitutes. If a guy is inadequate in his bedroom techniques, *the results are his fault alone.*"
> ...


For the last time, nothing I stated are what you claim them to be. So again, you lied and keep insisting on taking everything I say out of context to make them appear different from what they are.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What is confusing is when a woman says she doesn't want to talk about sex because it kills it for her, wouldn't it only kill 'it' ('it' being the magic or romance or whatever) until her partner learns the ropes - so to speak? Wouldn't the payoff be worth the effort of putting yourself out there?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> What is confusing is when a woman says she doesn't want to talk about sex because it kills it for her, wouldn't it only kill 'it' ('it' being the magic or romance or whatever) until her partner learns the ropes - so to speak? Wouldn't the payoff be worth the effort of putting yourself out there?


More what ifs? And shoulds? And ifs? And ideally? And wouldn'ts?

The premise would be a perfect world. But.....


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Conan, I think when people hear you say that her advice helped you, they should also get the context of this quote from you:

Anecdotal but I've never encountered an LD female.



So, what did her advice help you with? Getting off a HD female better than you were before? That's great, and she did post a lot of advice about the mechanics of sex and how to do it better. I have never argued with her on that point. Just on the point that knowing how to get a woman off better isn't going to make her want to get off more. In addition to the varied way in which women like to have sex or are able to climax, etc.

Perhaps if Star put her qualifiers at the beginning of her posts, rather then telling the men it is their fault, then later saying I am only talking about a certain type of woman. Or if she said something like, 'maybe try this approach.......' She is the one who bears the blame for the grief she gets here. Perhaps she should have figured out the way the guys wanted to hear it.


I would also say that I do understand her point that women are not trying to acquiesce the power, but they have no idea what to do. My problem with that argument is that they also can learn to read a book about it. They bear as much of the blame for the failure, and that is where I seem to disagree with Star. If you are in a marriage, you agreed to be a part of it, you don't get to just shrug your shoulders and say 'I dont know'.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> What is confusing is when a woman says she doesn't want to talk about sex because it kills it for her, wouldn't it only kill 'it' ('it' being the magic or romance or whatever) until her partner learns the ropes - so to speak? Wouldn't the payoff be worth the effort of putting yourself out there?


I would think so but my Mrs. isn't wired that way.

Now, if I get a certain mood going and sex talk starts flowing easily, Mrs. C gets really hot from the conversation and sex is usually really good afterwards but only because I engaged her a certain way and not from anything learned in the conversation.

Mrs. C only learns sexually by having the experience. She does not appear capable of learning through conversation at all, at least how I communicate. She might be telling me all kinds of things that aren't translating.

What I do know is that when I experiment in bed and hit a sweet spot for her with something new, she is responsive and encourages doing it again.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

StarFires said:


> For the last time, nothing I stated are what you claim them to be. So again, you lied and keep insisting on taking everything I say out of context to make them appear different from what they are.


I think there is a communication gap but I don't think he is lying intentionally.

I believe he is expressing concerns over what he perceived.

I get your language because I speak it but some don't.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tasorundo said:


> Conan, I think when people hear you say that her advice helped you, they should also get the context of this quote from you:
> 
> Anecdotal but I've never encountered an LD female.
> 
> ...


She has a very abrasive language style but I get it.

As for never meeting an LD woman..... That is a can of worms I probably won't open on TAM because I'm not as brave as @StarFires and I'm a natural apparently.>:wink2:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> That was an abrasive, blunt and untactful way of wording something to motivate men. I eat rough advice like candy if it is useful so I didn't bat an eye.
> 
> She could have used more tactfully worded advice but her information is is on target and I am not the only man on TAM that agrees.


I also appreciate a direct approach (witness that I've never complained about our most direct posters like ShesStillGotIt or PersonOfInterest) but such directness requires some level of accuracy. My objection to that statement had nothing to do with its directness.... it was just plain wrong.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> For the last time, nothing I stated are what you claim them to be. So again, you lied and keep insisting on taking everything I say out of context to make them appear different from what they are.


I took nothing out of context. There is no context that can change those statements I quoted. Nothing explains away "it is entirely his fault."


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Tasorundo said:


> Conan, I think when people hear you say that her advice helped you, they should also get the context of this quote from you:
> 
> Anecdotal but I've never encountered an LD female.
> 
> ...


Even putting the qualifiers first wouldnt change the underlying fallacy, which you partially summed up in your last paragraph. I've long understood that she's only referring to a particular subset of women.... as it is with virtually all posts by all posters here.... we all understand that we're all different and most of us don't assume that anybody is claiming something for everybody.

That in no way changes the fact that it's wrong to lay 100% of the responsibility on just one partner.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Of course if I want to have a good sex life it has to be worthwhile for her. No one disputes that. And I am certainly willing to do the hard work to fix a situation.

And, your implication that I've not had a good sex life because I've had relationships with women you described but not fixed it in the manner you suggested is absolutely wrong.

The issue is we define success differently. I define it as having a mutually satisfying sex life with an engaged and involved partner who will address the problem alongside me. You define it more narrowly.

I'll share a little bit about myself. After significant life experience, I now "piss into the wind" as little as possible in all aspects of my life. If a friend never finds time for me, I move on. If my employer seeks to grind as much as possible out of me at minimal cost and ignores my needs, I move on. If my partner refuses to help with meeting a basic relationship need, I move on.

And I've been happier and had more / better sex in the last few years that I ever did while married, or with a gf I had several years ago. I'm better off now, and if they aren't that's not my fault. 



StarFires said:


> There you go with what you expect again. And also adding mention about a good partner. You, like others, just want to argue, but I'm not interested in trying to engage anymore with someone who, as I talk about the table, he constantly finds ridiculous ways to - rather than try to understand - talk about the chair and uses his discussion of the chair to tell me how wrong I am about the table. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't comprehend that analogy either because it's abstract, and the abstract nature and connotations of the scenario is what you refuse to understand. It's too bad that too many of the guys (because even one is too many) are in lockstep with you because some of them, if not many of them are with the type of women that I am talking about. A good sex life could be in their future, but they would rather listen to and agree with you. It's too bad they are listening to and agreeing with you in effort to absolve themselves of the responsibility of doing what is required for them to obtain their own desired results, instead of accepting that if they want something to happen, it's up to them to make it happen. They, like you, would rather label women with "she is selfish" or "she's not into sex" or "she wanted sex with other men but not with me". That last statement particularly, as often as I've heard/seen men say it, proves they refuse to get it. I'm telling you how it is for those types of women. But all you keep doing is arguing, which would get you nowhere with those women, yet you would just keep on arguing with them and calling them selfish and whatnot. So, for the hundredth time, if a man wants a good sex life or an improved sex life, it is up to him to improve it by ascertaining on his own how to make it good so that it's good for her and she will want to participate in sexual relations with him. You are claiming nothing because there is nothing to dispute about that. But keep on whistling in the storm to be heard but saying nothing and accomplishing nothing since you need to be right so badly.


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