# saving porn on your fone & computer



## honeysuckle rose

Why do husbands think wives should be ok with saving images? Why is porn so important to you all? Please refrain from "it's just a photo," or "at least he comes home to you." Why should that make wives feel better about your behavior? Not being snarky. Honestly seeking your rationale. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF

Men are very visually oriented. We like to look at nude women. It has nothing to do with our wives and we aren't comparing the images to our wives.
Personally, I have none of this on my phone, but I do have some videos on my computer.

I guess in the same context of your question, here's our take on your concerns;
Why does it bother you?
If my wife had some pics or vids on her computer that weren't personal(like those of an ex), I wouldn't care.


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## *LittleDeer*

I am not a man but I see it as very disrespectful.

I believe men should set the tone and expectation for the relationship, and should be gentlemanly. They should treat all women with respect, and not treat them as sexual objects.

If men don't behave in a proper manner sexually and have little self control, they shouldn't be surprised when women do the same thing.

I know many men who would be uncomfortable with explicit images of men and knowing their wives were probably masturbating over those men. Especially if it was younger, more muscular fitter men with big giant ***** were unrealistic and so forth.

Many men think it's no big deal because they believe they are somehow entitled to behave like that, instead of valuing all women as they should and caring more about the comfort level of their wives then on their 'need' to get off on porn. 

It's just not cool.

I also don't believe all men do feel the need to do that.


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## Drover

I think keeping images on their phone that someone texted them is a problem as it implies a connection to that person. With that said, standard pron is pretty impersonal and both men and women have fantasies. You've probably watched soaps or vampire movies or romantic chick flicks whatever and thought some guy was hot. That's what watching standard porn is for him. If it's uncomfortable for you that he watch it alone, ask him to watch it with you.


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## sinnister

Let me try to relate this to the opposite gender.

Why do women enjoy romance movies? My unqualified guess is because they are emotionally motivated. When a woman watches a romance movie they want to be loved the same way George Clooney or in my wifes case Moriss Chestnutt is expressing love to the object of their affection. Dare I say they "fantasize" periodically about it.

For the vast majority of men, we see pron as just that. A fantasy. Both are harmless....for most of us. In my particular case I do NOT actually desire to be with a pron star anymore than I would dip my junk in a vat of toxic waste. The visual imagery of the acts is appealing to me. I see it as a form of entertainment. That is it. 

As previosly stated it has absolutely zero to do with my wife. She walks by and my desire for her can be seen almost immediately.

I know I'm not explaining myself well, but if I were a woman who didn't appreciate it I would try to chaulk it up to the mars/venus thing.

EDIT: I wish I had read the post by drover above mine which essentially says what I was trying to.


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## trey69

Have you told him how you feel? If so, what has he said? I'm sure there is justification on his part, there always is when someone likes or enjoys something. Bottom line, it bothers you and it needs to be addressed. All people need boundaries in a relationship IMO, BUT if there is something that truly bothers you, that boundary really needs to be set and re-enforced. You will need to let him know up front what is acceptable and not acceptable to you in your relationship. If he crosses that boundary, then you will need to make a choice about whats important to you.


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## JoeRockStar

I'm going to address this with the same logic I use when I look at an attractive woman on the street/in a bar etc. I have explained this to my wife and she gets it.

A guy wants a Ferrari all his life. He saves his money and eventually buys that Ferrari. It's everything he ever dreamed of and more.

One day, he's driving his awesome Ferrari down the road and a Lamborghini passes by. He turns and looks at the Lamborghini and appreciates its beautiful lines and powerful exhaust note.

Does this mean he's going to trade in his Ferrari and buy a Lamborghini? NO! He's perfectly content with his Ferrari that he's wanted forever but* he is simply appreciating the beauty of the Lamborghini.* 

Personally, I don't save porn images anywhere nor do I typically watch porn alone but I often do WITH my wife so this may not really apply to me. As DanF said, we're very visually oriented and we appreciate beauty in many forms.


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## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> *Why do husbands think wives should be ok with saving images? Why is porn so important to you all?* Please refrain from "it's just a photo," or "at least he comes home to you." Why should that make wives feel better about your behavior? Not being snarky. Honestly seeking your rationale. Thank you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've stated on various threads already, and Little Deer said it here, as well. Not all men watch porn, save images to their phones, save images to their computers, etc. There are some, tho it appears to be a minority, who don't like that sort of thing. They have no need for this outside stimulation. And yes, my husband is one of them. I've also said that he HAS viewed it in the past, before we met, and he found it disgusting. Again, his personal opinion, and not a reflection on any man who does view it. I happen to agree with my husband. That doesn't mean we don't watch occasional tv shows or movies that contain sex scenes. We just aren't comfortable with porn. 

The bottom line, here... you have a choice...accept the behavior, or don't. If you accept it and continue to resent him for it, that's on you. If you can't accept it, if it is a deal breaker for you... then move on. It really is THAT simple. You don't HAVE to put up with it if you don't CHOOSE to. And he doesn't HAVE to give it up if HE doesn't CHOOSE to. You just need to decide what is right FOR YOU.


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## CandieGirl

Well, Little Dear, who can explain why humans do the things they do...? Only your man knows why he's doing it (if you are talking about your man!); he may or may not tell you why. The fact that he has the images stored on his phone, if this is the case, means that he himself is OK with his behaviour (habit, whatever you want to call it).

At least he isn't engaging in these activities and then lying to you about it, and hiding the activity. Trust me, that just amplifies any negative feelings you as the partner may have, tenfold.


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## Racer

It’s always an interesting thing to me and I haven’t come up with any concrete answers... Just observations. Why do advertisers use abnormally attractive people in ads? Because people are drawn to it and want to associate themselves with that image (even those who are supposedly upset by that). Look up the age of Kama Sutra; It predates the bible. There are even cave paintings of a pornographic nature. This is nothing new.

And... the big observation. At least with men and within our circles, pornography and masturbation is generally accepted as ‘normal behavior’. It’s a ‘everyone does it and those that don’t admit it are lying’ culture in western society. This is our basis for “I’m not doing anything wrong” stance. 

It bothers you for your own reasons. Something to understand is he isn’t you and obviously does not share your concerns. Arguing a ‘porn is disgusting’ isn’t going to work; You can’t easily change beliefs. What you can do........ Express how much it bothers you and call into question whether he respects you enough to stop doing this. Approach from a ‘this bothers me and it bothers me that you don’t respect my beliefs enough to show some consideration of this boundary I have.’


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## GhostRydr

Unless its a massive collection and he has idealized porn over having the real thing, then women need to simply get over it.

Men are visual and women are emotional. We let you read your Harlequinn books with their erotica, and watch your Kate Hudson romance flicks, leave us to our porn now and then.


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## Phenix70

Drover said:


> I think keeping images on their phone that someone texted them is a problem as it implies a connection to that person. With that said, standard pron is pretty impersonal and both men and women have fantasies. You've probably watched soaps or vampire movies or romantic chick flicks whatever and thought some guy was hot. That's what watching standard porn is for him. If it's uncomfortable for you that he watch it alone, ask him to watch it with you.





sinnister said:


> Let me try to relate this to the opposite gender.
> 
> Why do women enjoy romance movies? My unqualified guess is because they are emotionally motivated. When a woman watches a romance movie they want to be loved the same way George Clooney or in my wifes case Moriss Chestnutt is expressing love to the object of their affection. Dare I say they "fantasize" periodically about it.
> 
> For the vast majority of men, we see pron as just that. A fantasy. Both are harmless....for most of us. In my particular case I do NOT actually desire to be with a pron star anymore than I would dip my junk in a vat of toxic waste. The visual imagery of the acts is appealing to me. I see it as a form of entertainment. That is it.
> 
> As previosly stated it has absolutely zero to do with my wife. She walks by and my desire for her can be seen almost immediately.
> 
> I know I'm not explaining myself well, but if I were a woman who didn't appreciate it I would try to chaulk it up to the mars/venus thing.
> 
> EDIT: I wish I had read the post by drover above mine which essentially says what I was trying to.





GhostRydr said:


> Unless its a massive collection and he has idealized porn over having the real thing, then women need to simply get over it.
> 
> Men are visual and women are emotional. We let you read your Harlequinn books with their erotica, and watch your Kate Hudson romance flicks, leave us to our porn now and then.


Let me perfectly clear, not all women read romance novels, watch romantic movies or drool over movie stars.
That's a cheap excuse to try to explain away why men watch porn.
DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it. 
Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


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## Racer

Phenix70 said:


> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it..


Where I’d like to slightly disagree is the “objectification of women”... I believe that is more a feminist rhetoric tagline on pornography. The act of sexual interaction is objectified and edited down to the fantasy alone... It’s not like the male actors are there either because of their overwhelming acting ability and some well developed plot line so you empathize. Some famous ones, like John Holmes, isn’t even a attractive man at all; Just hung like a horse and willing. I don’t believe porn is making a specific statement about women as much as it is sex and fantasy. There’s also a ton of gay porn too you know as well as other fetish stuff..... 

I find it all interesting... It is about that sexual gratification, and yes, it is almost primarily geared toward men (we are the primary market for porn, not women)... So, you’ll find the male sexual fantasy. This all results in more sales & hits; it always comes down to money. The people making this stuff aren’t stupid. They target ‘that fantasy’, not the hum drum duty sex guys get in the real world.


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## Maricha75

Phenix70 said:


> Let me perfectly clear, not all women read romance novels, watch romantic movies or drool over movie stars.
> That's a cheap excuse to try to explain away why men watch porn.
> DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it.
> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
> A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
> Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
> There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


Yea, I'm one of those weird women who enjoys watching MMA fights with my husband, I don't watch it for the men, I watch it for the fights lol. I watch NASCAR with him because we both enjoy the racing. Weird, right? Not about the drivers, tho we each have our favorites (And Danica is NOT on either of our lists! LOL). I like to watch movies like Fast and Furious, Underworld, Resident Evil, etc. But, I also like the romantic movies...and my hubby watches some of them too, actually LIKING a few. 
The movies I watch aren't for the "hot actors". Both my husband and I like movies with real plots. I do concede, however, that SOME (most, very likely) men feel that they need porn to get off. But, not all men are like that. Just as not all women can fit into the stereotype of reading erotica (all of my romance books are sans sex). 

Anyway, stereotypes irritate me, as you probably can tell.


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## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> Why do husbands think wives should be ok with saving images? Why is porn so important to you all? Please refrain from "it's just a photo," or "at least he comes home to you." Why should that make wives feel better about your behavior? Not being snarky. Honestly seeking your rationale. Thank you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because in many marriages it`s a non issue.

The porn I`ve saved is actually geared towards my wifes tastes.



So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?

Is the fantasy in his head ok?
Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?


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## Katiebird

Interesting topic and one I thought had no bearing on my relationship until a few days ago. Here's the thing, when I found that my husband had some *soft* porn in the way of magazines and other non-tech stuff (he is just not into computers) I was first of all shocked because he had always presented as VERY religious and that was not his style. Then I was hurt - and this was for a couple of reasons. One was that if he was at all interested in jazzing up our sex life I would have been all for it - and actually recommended getting something a few years ago from a nationally know seniors group. He said he didn't want to because he wasn't into that stuff.  At least if he would have gotten something, we could have loved and probably laughed hilariously together. I was also hurt because I know that he has a penchant for brunettes with dark eyes which is what most of this stuff was. However, here I am, a dishwater blond, with blue eyes and about 20-30 # over what I would like to be and at least 40 years older than any of the stuff he is looking at. So how does this NOT apply to me and that he must be fantisizing about every time we made love (past tense because it has not happened in a while). Yes, I feel threatened and betrayed. Is it rational in the male physche - maybe not - but my perseption is reality to ME. It is going to take a long time to work through this


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## WorkingOnMe

Katie, I hope that a few of my words can bring you some comfort and help with your sanity. Obviously not all men are the same but I wanted to give you a couple observations about my own porn use so that maybe you could get some insight into how at least some men view this stuff. First, and this is the honest to God's truth, I never cared at all about the looks or bodies of the actresses. My searches on porn sites were always about the "act". I never once searched for key words like "blonde" or "teen". But I searched plenty of times for keywords that described what I wished I was doing.

Second, I never ever, not even once, visualized any of the actresses when I had sex with my wife. I would say just the opposite....I would visualize my wife while watching the actress. Actually that would probably make her mad, but that's how it went down.

Oh and by the way....sex stuff from a national seniors group??? Sounds hot! lol


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## tacoma

tacoma said:


> So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?
> 
> Is the fantasy in his head ok?
> Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?


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## CrazyVixen

Let me shed some light on this issue as my boyfriend and I had the same issues. I found porn on my bf's phone that he had saved. Note: I didn't really like that he watched porn but was willing to accept it, until I saw that. I can understand where you are coming from completely. The reason it hurts more if it is a saved image is because it makes it feel like he is ready to whip it out whenever the need strikes, instead of just calling up his wife. It makes you feel like he needs it all the time if he has to have it "on demand" for lack of better words.

Anyways, since then I have grown and learned to accept it for what it is. Your boyfriend loves you, if he didn't he wouldn't be with you. How is your sex life? Do you have sex frequently? If you do, try not to let it bother you because it will eat you up inside.
Men will be men, women will be women. You're not the only one with this problem. I'd say about 80% (maybe even more) men in relationships look at porn. Is that to say that 80% of men in relationships find there wives unattractive? NO. That they would rather watch porn than be with them? NO.

I'm willing to bet the majority of men use porn simply as a way to unwind and de-stress when there wives or girlfriends can't or aren't around. 

I watch porn once or twice every 3 weeks or so now. I know this doesn't mean much coming from a women, but I always look at porn for the acts involved. I'm not oogling over the men's bodies. It's a fantasy that I can (perhaps later) act out with my boyfriend. It gives me ideas to enhance our sex life and I like that aspect.

If you can't beat em, join em. 
In all seriousness, good luck to you. I hope you don't let this consume you. Be well. <3


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## honeysuckle rose

Thank you to everyone for your replies. I really appreciate hearing different perspectives. What was really upsetting for me was the act of taking a photo of a random woman in the street whom he found attractive. The porn pic on his phone was of a woman who resembles an ex.

I apologize for not providing this information earlier. I think these facts are what make what I found so hurtful. I honestly DO understand that people are curious and seeing people have sex is stimulating. However photos of particular types of women...that's an entirely different level of hurt to me.

Porn is a very thorny issue for many women. I used to watch quite a bit of porn when I was younger and inexperienced as a way to de-stress. I get that. But Phenix70 hit the nail on the head. All the comparisons men make are not equivalent at all. Women who aren't thrilled about their men spending time to search for photos of OTHER WOMEN (NOT sexual acts) and actively saving them to his phone, computer, whatever, is hurtful in a way you can NEVER understand unless your wife actually had an affair. 

I am still struggling, but farther along on the path today. Thank you so much for your answers and for sharing. I appreciate it more than you can know.


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## CandieGirl

How many of you ladies sit there masturbating to a romance novel/film....???? Be honest now!!!

....tweet....tweet....tweet....(crickets)


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## honeysuckle rose

That has nothing to do with the info I just provided. Downloading porn that resembles an ex is another kettle of fish. taking photos of women in the street is a little bit much.


honeysuckle rose said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

CandieGirl said:


> How many of you ladies sit there masturbating to a romance novel/film....???? Be honest now!!!
> 
> ....tweet....tweet....tweet....(crickets)


Ok, I will be honest: I don't. Doesn't bother me if you believe it or not. It only matters that I know it to be true. Kinda hard to masturbate to romance novels that don't contain sex.  
And the movies... never had the desire to do that. Maybe I'm odd? Idk. 

I suppose next comes "your husband is lying when he says he doesn't watch porn/look at naked pics of women/etc? Again, doesn't matter what anyone else believes. Only matters what I know to be true.


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## GhostRydr

Phenix70 said:


> Let me perfectly clear, not all women read romance novels, watch romantic movies or drool over movie stars.
> That's a cheap excuse to try to explain away why men watch porn.
> DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it.
> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
> A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
> Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
> There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


The wonderful thing about the brain is that its complex and can think in various ways simultaneously...

As long as I know I am kind, considerate, hold doors for women, slide out their chair upon sitting, take their opinions into consideration, and otherwise just treat them respectfully, I also have no problem objectiying them sexually whilst watching porn....


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## tacoma

Originally Posted by tacoma 
So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?

Is the fantasy in his head ok?
Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?


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## Mephisto

Phenix70 said:


> Let me perfectly clear, not all women read romance novels, watch romantic movies or drool over movie stars.
> That's a cheap excuse to try to explain away why men watch porn.
> DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it.
> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
> A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
> Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
> There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


This shows that you just do not GET what it is that puts fire in men's bellies and has driven mankind to war and beyond. You have no idea that when we called it a sex DRIVE it is exactly that, a constant and burning pressure/pain that we feel. It is the thing that has driven men to create great stories and works of art, it is the thing that men have spent their entire lives trying to fulfill and to tame, to celebrate and to hide all at once.

This thing within us is so contradictory and convoluted that most men have a hard time understanding what it is inside them that creates this NEED. Always yearning and constantly struggling with. 

You women like to talk about your hormones and the crazy sh1t they do to your body, try multiplying your testosterone by a factor of ten and see what it does to you, Simply Amorous talks about her experience with it frequently, and I can nearly guarantee that was only a double shot or so. There is another hormone that plays with our heads too, it is called Dopamine. It is released through PLEASURE, whether this is sight, sound or touch. This pleasure response also releases endorphins, which make us feel euphoric, so, given that we are sexually oriented and that we like to experience it any way we can, we get the pleasure response from SEEING a sexual act(unless we have massive repressions through religion or other negative experience). So a porn image or video will give us a thrill and a high, much like chocolate will for a woman.

Next factor to realise here, is that as the body is exposed to Dopamine, it builds a tolerance,(much the same with any drug) and we need more and more to get that same "hit" from it, so the exposure level needs to be increased to get the same response, thus guys who began looking at boobie shots can easily progress to full frontal nudity and on to soft core simulated sex and then hardcore. This habit can grow and escalate, it can also be controlled. BUT, as is the key with controlling any addiction once it has you fully in it's grips, there needs to be diversionary therapy.

So, the moral of the story here, is if you don't want a guy to watch porn, you need to either get him young and distract him from it with other Dopamine generating activities, or if he is already into porn, you need to create greater stimulus in real life.

Men are simple really, do three things well and your man will do whatever the hell you want him to do. Feed him, F#ck him and RESPECT the hell out of him. Nothing else need apply.


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## honeysuckle rose

And by the same token, don't get upset because it's NATURAL AND OUR NATURE to be less interested, enthusiastic and accommodating because thinking about your whacking off to some girl half our age or someone who looks like an ex turns us OFF.

Celibacy or random f*cking with strangers seems so much more appealing at this point...


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## Phenix70

Mephisto said:


> This shows that you just do not GET what it is that puts fire in men's bellies and has driven mankind to war and beyond. You have no idea that when we called it a sex DRIVE it is exactly that, a constant and burning pressure/pain that we feel. It is the thing that has driven men to create great stories and works of art, it is the thing that men have spent their entire lives trying to fulfill and to tame, to celebrate and to hide all at once.
> 
> This thing within us is so contradictory and convoluted that most men have a hard time understanding what it is inside them that creates this NEED. Always yearning and constantly struggling with.
> 
> You women like to talk about your hormones and the crazy sh1t they do to your body, try multiplying your testosterone by a factor of ten and see what it does to you, Simply Amorous talks about her experience with it frequently, and I can nearly guarantee that was only a double shot or so. There is another hormone that plays with our heads too, it is called Dopamine. It is released through PLEASURE, whether this is sight, sound or touch. This pleasure response also releases endorphins, which make us feel euphoric, so, given that we are sexually oriented and that we like to experience it any way we can, we get the pleasure response from SEEING a sexual act(unless we have massive repressions through religion or other negative experience). *So a porn image or video will give us a thrill and a high, much like chocolate will for a woman.*
> Next factor to realise here, is that as the body is exposed to Dopamine, it builds a tolerance,(much the same with any drug) and we need more and more to get that same "hit" from it, so the exposure level needs to be increased to get the same response, thus guys who began looking at boobie shots can easily progress to full frontal nudity and on to soft core simulated sex and then hardcore. This habit can grow and escalate, it can also be controlled. BUT, as is the key with controlling any addiction once it has you fully in it's grips, there needs to be diversionary therapy.
> 
> So, the moral of the story here, is if you don't want a guy to watch porn, you need to either get him young and distract him from it with other Dopamine generating activities, or if he is already into porn, you need to create greater stimulus in real life.
> 
> Men are simple really, do three things well and your man will do whatever the hell you want him to do. Feed him, F#ck him and RESPECT the hell out of him. Nothing else need apply.



And you obviously do not understand WOMEN.
Comparing sex acts to chocolate, are you kidding me?

Men watch porn because of testoserone?
That has got to be the lamest excuse yet.
That's no different than saying "I'm a man" to justify having an affair. 
"Oh, I couldn't keep my d*ck in my pants because I have testosterone cursing through my body!"
There is no NEED for porn to masturbate, please note I put NEED.
And I think that if someone relies on using it to get off, I think they're lazy. 
Come on, aren't we always told that the brain is the largest sex organ?
There is something more going on when a man CHOSES to use porn as a masturbation aid.
AND that is the crux of this situation, the WHY.


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## honeysuckle rose

Phenix70, I love you!!!!


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## Jamison

Just my 2 cents HSR. There are some things in the world we have to accept, like a loved one dying, there is nothing we can do about that etc. IMO if you settle and choose to accept that what he is doing is ok when thats not really how you feel, you will be more miserable and hold way more resentment down the road than you do now. Two things, 1.) Never settle 2.) Do NOT accept unacceptable behavior. There are some people who have no problem accepting the fact their spouse is doing this or that, if they truly end up being ok with it. BUT if you are one of those people (and there are more than you think) who is not ok with how another persons behavior is affecting them, or what they are doing ,then do not think you have to accept it. Good luck.


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## CandieGirl

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, I will be honest: I don't. Doesn't bother me if you believe it or not. It only matters that I know it to be true. Kinda hard to masturbate to romance novels that don't contain sex.
> And the movies... never had the desire to do that. Maybe I'm odd? Idk.
> 
> I suppose next comes "your husband is lying when he says he doesn't watch porn/look at naked pics of women/etc? Again, doesn't matter what anyone else believes. Only matters what I know to be true.


No, no accusations of your husband being a liar...all I meant was I am sick of porn being compared to those vampire-bodice-ripper books/movies/tv shows, romance novels, etc. Give me a break. 

People who think this are obviously the type who create those commercials for pads & tampons, where the woman is running through a meadow or lovingly picking flowers from her garden...

Personally, I don't need visual stimuli...I guess I'm just making the assumption that other women don't either...generalizing!


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## tacoma

Originally Posted by tacoma 
So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?

Is the fantasy in his head ok?
Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?


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## Maricha75

tacoma said:


> Originally Posted by tacoma
> So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?
> 
> Is the fantasy in his head ok?
> Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?


Tacoma... are you thinking we're ignoring you? 

Ok, so my husband doesn't have porn...chooses not to masturbate either. So... it's a non-issue for me. However, I would say 1. Why would ANY man tell his wife "hey honey, when we're having sex, I'm not thinking of you. I'm imagining that hot red-head from the movie we were watching last night." Or whatever the situation. I never ask my husband if he ever thinks of other women. I have never asked him. I joke with him about celebrities, but every single one I mention, he has nothing good to say about how they look. I've told him it would be cool if he found even ONE attractive (Angelina Jolie...if I was into women, she'd probably top my list lol. She's attractive, IMO)... again, I don't try to think of who, if anyone else, he thinks of. 
2. I think the pixels are a problem because we women can actually see that physical manifestation of that gets him off. I think, for some women, it's actually SEEING the age, the build, and feeling inadequate. Some women actually compare themselves to these pics, these videos, and when they can't "measure up"... they figure "why bother". At the risk of making a sweeping generalization, for SOME women, the idea of living up to that image is like a man feeling unable to live up to the so-called romantic ideals some women have because of the movies, books, etc mentioned by others.

Regarding what someone said earlier regarding respect, food, and sex (not all exact words)... we women are the same way. We need all those things too. The thing is, while we may need to respect a man's choice to view porn (and yes, it is a CHOICE, not a NEED), men (not all, but in general) need to respect the views of women who don't like it. Really, the whole thing comes down to respect. And, whether or not porn is a deal breaker for a couple. Will she walk away if she learns he watches it, and hides the fact? By the same token, if he wants to stay with her, knowing how she feels about it, is he willing to give it up? It's something the couple should discuss, together...without a bunch of "everyone does it". Open, honest communication.


----------



## SunnyT

*taking a photo of a random woman in the street whom he found attractive*

Actually, the original post is not even about porn. Unless the lady was naked in the street AND acting sexually suggestive. (As opposed to a crazy, naked bag-lady). 

The porn issue is tricky for some women I think because of perceptions. (Well, isn't EVERYTHING because of perceptions?!) My ex watched alot of porn, our sex life was mundane (not for lack of effort on my part).... but his attitude toward porn was to verbally OUT LOUD, compare me to those women with "perfect bodies". At one point it did lead to insecurities for me. Eventually, I grew some, gained my own confidence in spite of him, and the porn wasn't a problem. HE was the problem. 

My H now, watches alot of porn (with "alot" being subjective) but it's not personal to me. It's more like the guys describe on here. The porn actors and actresses do it for the money, and the amatures post it for their own reasons. We talked about this yesterday... about how there is no emotion showing in the porn, even in the amature videos. For the watcher, its just a sex act to watch. Period. 

I watch on occasion, but it really does nothing for me. Even if there were emotion portrayed I don't care how lovingly she blows him, or how into her he is when he licks her. Other couples having sex means nothing at all to me. 

We've made our own videos which H looooooooves. But even those, when I look at those I think "Poor guy, having sex with that chubby old lady". LOL, it's still not exciting for me. As much as I love sex, I don't need to watch it. But I don't resent him for watching. 

Not only that, but IF H enjoys it and its not hurting the marriage (which I would say is if the porn is substitution for sex, or stupid comparisons), then why would it be an issue? It is part of who he is, something he enjoys. If he ate foods I think are disgusting I wouldn't make him stop. I know, we can't compare porn to anything that isn't sex. But I think that rule is only for those who resent it for whatever reason. 

Anyway, the OP was talking about a random photo he took of someone on the street and saved. THAT, I find icky. I'd call him on it. Then it seems like window shopping for someone ELSE besides you. Ick.


----------



## tacoma

Maricha75 said:


> Tacoma... are you thinking we're ignoring you?


Maybe a little.
I was more concerned nobody wanted to give my question a shot.
I should have known I could count on you.




> However, I would say 1. Why would ANY man tell his wife "hey honey, when we're having sex, I'm not thinking of you. I'm imagining that hot red-head from the movie we were watching last night."


I didn`t say anything about having sex.
I asked about his fantasies during masturbation.
I don`t see the image in a mans head as any different than the image in the mans porn really.
It`s all fantasy fodder.



> 2. I think the pixels are a problem because we women can actually see that physical manifestation of that gets him off. I think, for some women, it's actually SEEING the age, the build, and feeling inadequate. Some women actually compare themselves to these pics, these videos, and when they can't "measure up"... they figure "why bother". At the risk of making a sweeping generalization, for SOME women, the idea of living up to that image is like a man feeling unable to live up to the so-called romantic ideals some women have because of the movies, books, etc mentioned by others.


I know you don`t intend to but this answer pretty much states that the problem with the porn is a problem with the one who dislikes the porn.
It`s due to the womans insecurity (Puts on flame proof suit).

Should a man be sensitive to this insecurity?
Absolutely, but I have never found it healthy to alter my personal worldview/beliefs/personality/habits due to someone else's beliefs/insecurities/personality/habits.(Zips up flame proof suit)

I think this "problem" can be better dealt with by exploring where that insecurity comes from rather than bashing men for porn. (grabs large fire extinguisher and heads for fire escape).


----------



## Jamison

tacoma said:


> Maybe a little.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know you don`t intend to but this answer pretty much states that the problem with the porn is a problem with the one who dislikes the porn.
> It`s due to the womans insecurity (Puts on flame proof suit).


Or it could be more about respect than anything. I wouldn't think that all women who don't care for porn, are insecure. Just like I doubt all men are insecure because their wife is reading a romance novel thinking some quy on big white horse is going to come sweep her off her feet.


----------



## CallaLily

tacoma said:


> Maybe a little.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It`s due to the womans insecurity (Puts on flame proof suit).
> 
> Should a man be sensitive to this insecurity?
> Absolutely


And how are some ways he should be sensitive to the insecurity? By continuing to do it even if it bothers her? Maybe giving her a pat on the back and hug and say, "All men do it, its ok" 

Just wondering!


----------



## tacoma

Jamison said:


> Or it could be more about respect than anything


Nope, it's about insecurity.



> I wouldn't think that all women who don't care for porn, are insecure. Just like I doubt all men are insecure because their wife is reading a romance novel thinking some quy on big white horse is going to come sweep her off her feet.


I didn't say anything about women who don't care for porn.
I was speaking if women who are adamantly against it and find it an affront and disrespectful.
I "don't care for" the reality shows my wife watches but I don't bash her for her insensitivity for making me sit through them.

Edit:
On second thought you`re correct it is about respect.
It`s about the mans inability to respect the woman`s insecurity no matter how hard she pushes it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

CallaLily said:


> And how are some ways he should be sensitive to the insecurity? By continuing to do it even if it bothers her? *Maybe giving her a pat on the back and hug and say, "All men do it, its ok"
> *
> Just wondering!


LOL but if he did that, he'd be lying...


----------



## SunnyT

My husband just said "Why do men keep porn on their phone?" In case they are riding on the bus and forget their newspaper...they can watch porn. Or, if you are waiting for your order at Sonic... you can watch porn.


----------



## tacoma

CallaLily said:


> And how are some ways he should be sensitive to the insecurity? By continuing to do it even if it bothers her? Maybe giving her a pat on the back and hug and say, "All men do it, its ok"
> 
> Just wondering!


That would depend upon the dynamic in the relationship.

I`ve seen women post here not just furious that their husband is watching porn but that he`s masturbating at all.

That gets into an acceptable control factor that can`t be dealt with.

I`ve also seen posters here dealing with porn addictions that are harming their sex lives.

That`s unacceptable as well.

Regardless of the dynamic much more is going to be accomplished by talking about it and trying to understand and work on those insecurities/addictions than bashing a guy who has been bashed about porn his whole life by insecure women.

He`s been trained t hide it and lie about it since he was first able to open his dads Playboys on his own.


----------



## Jamison

tacoma said:


> Nope, it's about insecurity.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say anything about women who don't care for porn.
> I was speaking if women who are adamantly against it and find it an affront and disrespectful.
> I "don't care for" the reality shows my wife watches but I don't bash her for her insensitivity for making me sit through them.
> 
> Edit:
> On second thought you`re correct it is about respect.
> It`s about the mans inability to respect the woman`s insecurity no matter how hard she pushes it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people are just are mismatched and needs to be with a person who respects their feelings on such issues, and vice versa.

Years ago I dated a woman, who loved to watch violence. I mean videos, and read books on killing, and how to cut people up etc. When I discovered it, I asked her about it, her answer to me was, "Its just something I enjoy." Now I didn't think it had a thing to do with me, BUT since it wasn't my cup of tea. I respected how she felt and her right to view it, I sure did, and I got the hell outta there! LMAO! 

Just thought I'd share.


----------



## CallaLily

tacoma said:


> Regardless of the dynamic much more is going to be accomplished by talking about it and trying to understand and work on those insecurities/addictions than bashing a guy who has been bashed about porn his whole life by insecure women.


True. So it might be best for men to really look into their relationships before getting married. If they are a lover of porn, do NOT marry a insecure woman period.  Doesn't matter how hot she is, what kind of mother she would make to your kids etc. 

If you're a insecure woman, then do NOT marry a man who is a lover of porn etc. Go over your relationship with him with a fine tooth comb before proceeding with marriage. Doesn't matter how good looking he is, what kind of provider he is, etc. 

Also same goes for men who may be insecure as well.


----------



## CandieGirl

tacoma said:


> Maybe a little.
> I was more concerned nobody wanted to give my question a shot.
> I should have known I could count on you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn`t say anything about having sex.
> I asked about his fantasies during masturbation.
> I don`t see the image in a mans head as any different than the image in the mans porn really.
> It`s all fantasy fodder.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you don`t intend to but this answer pretty much states that the problem with the porn is a problem with the one who dislikes the porn.
> *It`s due to the womans insecurity *(Puts on flame proof suit).
> 
> Should a man be sensitive to this insecurity?
> Absolutely, but I have never found it healthy to alter my personal worldview/beliefs/personality/habits due to someone else's beliefs/insecurities/personality/habits.(Zips up flame proof suit)
> 
> I think this "problem" can be better dealt with by exploring where that insecurity comes from rather than bashing men for porn. (grabs large fire extinguisher and heads for fire escape).


Kind of like telling a man that he has a small penis...that kind of insecurity? Every man I've ever been with has had issue with his penis size. Every. Last. One.


----------



## CallaLily

CandieGirl said:


> Kind of like telling a man that he has a small penis...that kind of insecurity? Every man I've ever been with has had issue with his penis size. Every. Last. One.


:lol: :smthumbup:


----------



## CandieGirl

tacoma said:


> That would depend upon the dynamic in the relationship.
> 
> I`ve seen women post here not just furious that their husband is watching porn but that he`s masturbating at all.
> 
> That gets into an acceptable control factor that can`t be dealt with.
> 
> I`ve also seen posters here dealing with porn addictions that are harming their sex lives.
> 
> That`s unacceptable as well.
> 
> Regardless of the dynamic much more is going to be accomplished by talking about it and trying to understand and work on those insecurities/addictions than bashing a guy who has been bashed about porn his whole life by insecure women.
> 
> He`s been trained t hide it and lie about it since he was first able to open his dads Playboys on his own.


I'm glad to see someone differentiate the difference between porn 'addictions' and simple recreational use. It's unfair to throw the insecure woman card EVERY time, and I gather lots of women are fed up of being told "every guy does it; get over it", as though it is our problem.


----------



## AgentD

CallaLily said:


> True. So it might be best for men to really look into their relationships before getting married. If they are a lover of porn, do NOT marry a insecure woman period.  Doesn't matter how hot she is, what kind of mother she would make to your kids etc.
> 
> If you're a insecure woman, then do NOT marry a man who is a lover of porn etc. Go over your relationship with him with a fine tooth comb before proceeding with marriage. Doesn't matter how good looking he is, what kind of provider he is, etc.
> 
> Also same goes for men who may be insecure as well.


:smthumbup:


----------



## tacoma

Jamison said:


> Some people are just are mismatched and needs to be with a person who respects their feelings on such issues, and vice versa.
> 
> Years ago I dated a woman, who loved to watch violence. I mean videos, and read books on killing, and how to cut people up etc. When I discovered it, I asked her about it, her answer to me was, "Its just something I enjoy." Now I didn't think it had a thing to do with me, BUT since it wasn't my cup of tea. I respected how she felt and her right to view it, I sure did, and I got the hell outta there! LMAO!
> 
> Just thought I'd share.


I can relate and agree.

I once dated a woman for a month or so before she made me aware she thought porn was evil and would never tolerate.

I dumped her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

CandieGirl said:


> I'm glad to see someone differentiate the difference between porn 'addictions' and simple recreational use. It's unfair to throw the insecure woman card EVERY time, and I gather lots of women are fed up of being told "every guy does it; get over it", as though it is our problem.


I agree it isn't always about a woman's insecurity but often is.

Many women do have genuine complaints as their husbands porn use is interfering with their sex lives.

I'm have sympathy for these women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CandieGirl

tacoma said:


> I agree it isn't always about a woman's insecurity but often is.
> 
> Many women in this doin have genuine complaints as their husbands porn use is interfering with their sex lives.
> 
> I'm have sympathy for these women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ironically, the idea of playboy and porn bothered me much more when I was in my early 20's...back when I had a bod that rivalled any of those broads who were all laid out on glossy paper  Now that I'm old, I couldn't care less and I'm anything but insecure. But...I am of the camp of women whose husbands' habits interfere with real sex lives. That is my problem.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

CandieGirl said:


> I'm glad to see someone differentiate the difference between porn 'addictions' and simple recreational use. It's unfair to throw the insecure woman card EVERY time, and I gather lots of women are fed up of being told "every guy does it; get over it", as though it is our problem.


AMEN!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Jamison said:


> Or it could be more about respect than anything. I wouldn't think that all women who don't care for porn, are insecure. Just like I doubt all men are insecure because their wife is reading a romance novel thinking some quy on big white horse is going to come sweep her off her feet.


Exactly. Men just DO NOT get it. Doubt they are capable. It's biological.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

CandieGirl said:


> Kind of like telling a man that he has a small penis...that kind of insecurity? Every man I've ever been with has had issue with his penis size. Every. Last. One.


I don`t know about "every" man and woman having these insecurities.The female "likes" I`ve gotten in this thread alone shows me not "every" woman has these insecurities.

Also understand I`m not bashing women for these insecurities as our culture batters them into their heads from the age of 2 so it`s not even really their fault.

I also have no insecurities about my penis size or performance as I`ve been in enough locker rooms and had more than enough women to be pretty secure in what I`m packing.

Your post reminds me of my wife and I watching some porn awhile back where it was obvious the female was seriously getting off on the size of a well hung male.

My wife was all eyes on the scene and before she even knew what she was saying "Jesus, he`s big" came out of her mouth in the most covetous/excited manner.

The only effect this had on me was to wonder about ways I could give her a semblance of the feeling the woman on the screen was enjoying as I`m simply not equipped as the male on the screen.
Not a feeling of inadequacy but a feeling of wanting to fulfill her desire.


----------



## AgentD

honeysuckle rose said:


> Exactly. Men just DO NOT get it. Doubt they are capable. It's biological.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its biological for me to act like a total b*tch during PMS months too. However, I choose not to by looking into alternatives for my hormonal situation. Biological or not, porn is choice, just as other things in the world are a choice.

If a man continues to do something his wife feels is harmful to the relationship, then the question is no longer about why the man looks at whatever or does whatever, but more about why is the woman continuing to remain with someone who has such little respect for her feelings. 

Same for the man. If you are with a woman who doesn't like and accept what you are doing are into, then the question becomes why are with her. Find someone who has no problem with it.


----------



## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> Exactly. Men just DO NOT get it. Doubt they are capable. It's biological.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the core of the problem with this subject.

You can`t find understanding once you`ve decided understanding can`t be found.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

tacoma said:


> This is the core of the problem with this subject.
> 
> You can`t find understanding once you`ve decided understanding can`t be found.


I think the core of the problem is just men and women are different. the majority of the posts from men on this topic bear that out. women either accept it or live alone because the insecurity card will always be thrown in our faces. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AgentD

honeysuckle rose said:


> I think the core of the problem is just men and women are different. the majority of the posts from men on this topic bear that out. women either accept it or live alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 There are some men here who DO see the woman's side. Bottom line, you need to do what works best for your situation. I saw a man on this very thread tell you NOT to accept anything you do not want to, if its something that bothers you. If you choose to accept it, thats your right, if not, thats your right and you go from there.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

AgentD said:


> There are some men here who DO see the woman's side. Bottom line, you need to do what works best for your situation. I saw a man on this very thread tell you NOT to accept anything you do not want to, if its something that bothers you. If you choose to accept it, thats your right, if not, thats your right and you go from there.


You are right. But those men are very few & far between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AgentD

honeysuckle rose said:


> You are right. But those men are very few & far between.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If your husband is saving porn on his phone/computer or taking pics of women, or whatever, have you talked with him about it? if so, what has he told you?


----------



## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> I think the core of the problem is just men and women are different. the majority of the posts from men on this topic bear that out. women either accept it or live alone because the insecurity card will always be thrown in our faces.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure, that's a much better idea than trying to communicate some type of understanding and change the insecurity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Or change the "need" for porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> Exactly. *Men just DO NOT get it. Doubt they are capable.* It's biological.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As much as I like supporting your position regarding the subject *ahem* at hand.... I think it would be better to say "my husband just doesn't get it, nor do men with whom I have been in contact." The thing is, HR, there ARE men who "get it" Just as there are women who "get it" regarding why some men believe they need it. Honestly, you need to figure this out for yourself. Is it a deal breaker, or not/ Can you live with him having these pics, and even having porn, readily available?Or, do you feel it best to end the marriage? It really is up to you what you feel you can and cannot live with.

Now, tacoma, I know you meant that some women feel the insecurity...since I did state that "for SOME women, it is SEEING..." 

Honestly, it isn't even about insecurity regarding such things with my husband. He chooses not to view it. Not because of religious repression or other negative experiences (I believe it was Mephisto who said that?). He viewed it years before meeting me. It was his dad's collection. His dad had since passed away and he wanted to see what it was his dad had been watching. No, there was no negative feeling in this situation regarding his dad and porn. LOL He had also seen magazines from his friends, etc. And he didn't care for it. Even with as inexperienced as he was (virgin when he and I met), he saw it as fake and ridiculous. It actually turned him OFF. By choice, the only pics he has on his phone (nudes/half naked) are of me. 

Anyway, just a point that sometimes, it's "just because"... so, "not everyone does it"


----------



## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> Or change the "need" for porn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because of your insecurity.

I'll pass
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

tacoma said:


> This is the core of the problem with this subject.
> 
> You can`t find understanding once you`ve decided understanding can`t be found.


 we agree???


----------



## honeysuckle rose

AgentD said:


> If your husband is saving porn on his phone/computer or taking pics of women, or whatever, have you talked with him about it? if so, what has he told you?


We have talked. Like most men, he enjoys porn & looking at pretty women. he did say he understood why I felt the way I do and wants to work on it. He doesn't want to end the relationship or lose me. regarding taking pictures he said he understood why that was wrong and why I was upset 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## trey69

I have seen my share of porn in my life. It was nothing that I really felt I needed or had to have, it was ok for me to watch once in awhile. Watched it more when I was single etc. Watched some while married with the wife. As I got older I watched it less and less, it just didn't do much for me. My wife is enough for me. She is MY visual. 

Back when I watched it some and we watched it together, she really didn't have a problem with it. BUT I will tell you, if she had a problem with it, if it bothered her, and our marriage was suffering because of it, and she asked me to stop would I? Yes, its about respect, and sacrifice. Why would I continue to do something that was hurtful to her and the marriage? Would I expect the same from her? Yes, I would. If she was into something that was damaging our marriage and I asked her to stop, I would hope she would have the respect to do so.

If she didn't, then I would need rethink some things about the marriage, and I would hope she would do the same If I chose to continue on doing what I was doing that bothered her.


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> We have talked. Like most men, he enjoys porn & looking at pretty women.* he did say he understood why I felt the way I do and wants to work on it.* He doesn't want to end the relationship or lose me. regarding taking pictures he said he understood why that was wrong and why I was upset
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I have to ask... how did you respond to him saying that? Actually, what was your response to the whole thing/ And body language says a lot too.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

tacoma said:


> Because of your insecurity.
> 
> I'll pass
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


because testosterone and your penis are excuses for everything and everything is not acceptable. Thanks for passing. so glad you did.its amazing how critical pornography and mens penises are tied to thrur selfesteem. Talk about insecurity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

Maricha75 said:


> Now, tacoma, I know you meant that some women feel the insecurity...since I did state that "for SOME women, it is SEEING..."


Correct.




> Honestly, it isn't even about insecurity regarding such things with my husband. He chooses not to view it. Not because of religious repression or other negative experiences (I believe it was Mephisto who said that?). He viewed it years before meeting me. It was his dad's collection. His dad had since passed away and he wanted to see what it was his dad had been watching. No, there was no negative feeling in this situation regarding his dad and porn. LOL He had also seen magazines from his friends, etc. And he didn't care for it. Even with as inexperienced as he was (virgin when he and I met), he saw it as fake and ridiculous. It actually turned him OFF. By choice, the only pics he has on his phone (nudes/half naked) are of me.


Honestly I`m in your husbands camp.
I`m disgusted by the level of unreality in mainstream porn and don`t watch it often unless I need a good laugh.

My porn collection is mostly my wife and some amateur stuff as it`s "real" and personal.


----------



## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> because testosterone and your penis are excuses for everything and everything is not acceptable. Thanks for passing. so glad you did.its amazing how critical pornography and mens penises are tied to thrur selfesteem. Talk about insecurity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don`t recall alluding to that at all.

Are you reading my posts?

(This suits getting warmer)


----------



## CandieGirl

tacoma said:


> I don`t know about "every" man and woman having these insecurities.The female "likes" I`ve gotten in this thread alone shows me not "every" woman has these insecurities.
> 
> Also understand I`m not bashing women for these insecurities as our culture batters them into their heads from the age of 2 so it`s not even really their fault.
> 
> I also have no insecurities about my penis size or performance as I`ve been in enough locker rooms and had more than enough women to be pretty secure in what I`m packing.
> 
> Your post reminds me of my wife and I watching some porn awhile back where it was obvious the female was seriously getting off on the size of a well hung male.
> 
> My wife was all eyes on the scene and before she even knew what she was saying "Jesus, he`s big" came out of her mouth in the most covetous/excited manner.
> 
> The only effect this had on me was to wonder about ways I could give her a semblance of the feeling the woman on the screen was enjoying as I`m simply not equipped as the male on the screen.
> Not a feeling of inadequacy but a feeling of wanting to fulfill her desire.


There's the exception to every rule, as you appear to be in this case. I've had plenty of men, too. I stand by what I said; most of them, 95% easily, had insecurities size-wise.

Not to mention the conversations I've had with various people on this subject. Invariably, most men present will immediately start bleating "It's not the quantity, it's the quality!!!" Er....buddy, you've just announced to us all that you've got a teeny weenie (or what you think is a teenie weenie)...LMAO!!!


----------



## honeysuckle rose

trey69 said:


> I have seen my share of porn in my life. It was nothing that I really felt I needed or had to have, it was ok for me to watch once in awhile. Watched it more when I was single etc. Watched some while married with the wife. As I got older I watched it less and less, it just didn't do much for me. My wife is enough for me. She is MY visual.
> 
> Back when I watched it some and we watched it together, she really didn't have a problem with it. BUT I will tell you, if she had a problem with it, if it bothered her, and our marriage was suffering because of it, and she asked me to stop would I? Yes, its about respect, and sacrifice. Why would I continue to do something that was hurtful to her and the marriage? Would I expect the same from her? Yes, I would. If she was into something that was damaging our marriage and I asked her to stop, I would hope she would have the respect to do so.
> 
> If she didn't, then I would need rethink some things about the marriage, and I would h
> 
> ope she would do the same If I chose to continue on doing what I was doing that bothered her.


now that ladies and gentlemen is a REAL man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> because testosterone and your penis are excuses for everything and everything is not acceptable. Thanks for passing. so glad you did.its amazing how critical pornography and mens penises are tied to thrur selfesteem. Talk about insecurity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know... breast size seems to be tied to many women's self esteem. But that's comparing strawberries and melons. The generalization tho.... *smh*


----------



## honeysuckle rose

tacoma said:


> I don`t recall alluding to that at all.
> 
> Are you reading my posts?
> 
> (This suits


you're stuck on insecurity. Your not about exploring changing behavior from the man's point of view. So I'll pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

tacoma said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I`m in your husbands camp.
> I`m disgusted by the level of unreality in mainstream porn and don`t watch it often unless I need a good laugh.
> 
> *My porn collection is mostly my wife and some amateur stuff as it`s "real" and personal.*


THAT, I could handle...well, the spouse part. Considering that my husband is dealing with depression right now, I have been a bit apprehensive about bringing up "home movies" suggestions. HOWEVER, there is one video he recorded... and we both have that readily accessible. I have no issue with him having videos of US on his phone, or his computer... as long as it is *BURIED* so the kids don't find it!!!


----------



## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> you're stuck on insecurity. Your not about exploring changing behavior from the man's point of view. So I'll pass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually I`ve stated more than once on this thread a male should be sympathetic to this problem if his wife has it.

I just don`t think it`s all his problem, as you`ve so thoroughly showed here it`s not all your husbands problem.

The big problem is your inability to take a rational look at it and communicate calmly and empathetically in order to reach a compromise.

You don`t want to "fix it" you want your husband to bend to your will.

How`s that working for you?


----------



## SunnyT

Honeysuckle, you said your H understands your position. Which is cool. But you didn't say that he deleted all his "porn" for you.


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> you're stuck on insecurity. Your not about exploring changing behavior from the man's point of view. So I'll pass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except, he acknowledges that not all women are insecure. Honestly, as far as the insecurity part is concerned, he is correct. It SHOULD be addressed. If it isn't, it will continue to gnaw at one or the other or both in the couple. The same applies to men. Many are insecure... be it regarding equipment size, or ability in the sack. It really is all about communication. But, I do have to agree with tacoma. His wife has no problem with porn... why should he view it as 'bad'? My husband doesn't like porn, why should he view it as 'good'?

Tacoma isn't 'stuck on insecurity'... if anything, he picked up on it in something *I* wrote a few pages back.....

*'for some women, it's actually SEEING the age, the build, and feeling inadequate. Some women actually compare themselves to these pics, these videos, and when they can't "measure up"... they figure "why bother".'* 

That's where he actually STARTED talking about the insecurities of SOME women.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

SunnyT said:


> Honeysuckle, you said your H understands your position. Which is cool. But you didn't say that he deleted all his "porn" for you.


I didn't ask him to nor would I. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> I didn't ask him to nor would I.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, so...wait... you would rather come here and sulk, make sweeping generalizations about the men, incite anger amongst us all.... than to actually see about a true resolution with your husband?


----------



## honeysuckle rose

tacoma said:


> Actually I`ve stated more than once on this thread a male should be sympathetic to this problem if his wife has it.
> 
> I just don`t think it`s all his problem, as you`ve so thoroughly showed here it`s not all your husbands problem.
> 
> The big problem is your inability to take a rational look at it and communicate calmly and empathetically in order to reach a compromise.
> 
> You don`t want to "fix it" you want your husband to bend to your will.
> 
> How`s that working for you?[/QUOTE
> 
> That is completely inaccurate. We are both adults free to make our own choices. He is not my child. I can be as empathetic as the next guy. It just fascinated me how some people are so caught up in porn or whatever else that the minute a woman says she isn't on board with that she's insecure. To each his own. I am GOOD, thanks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, so...wait... you would rather come here and sulk, make sweeping generalizations about the men, incite anger amongst us all.... than to actually see about a true resolution with your husband?



Generalizations are generally true. What would deleting or not viewing porn do to resolve the original issue of seeking images that look like exes or taking life of random women & keeping them on your phone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> Generalizations are generally true. What would deleting or not viewing porn do to resolve the original issue of seeking images that look like exes or taking life of random women & keeping them on your phone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only you can answer that question. What gets me is how you came on here, saying 


> Why do husbands think wives should be ok with saving images? Why is porn so important to you all?





> What was really upsetting for me was the act of taking a photo of a random woman in the street whom he found attractive. The porn pic on his phone was of a woman who resembles an ex.





> That has nothing to do with the info I just provided. Downloading porn that resembles an ex is another kettle of fish. taking photos of women in the street is a little bit much.





> thinking about your whacking off to some girl half our age or someone who looks like an ex turns us OFF.





> Men just DO NOT get it. Doubt they are capable.





> I think the core of the problem is just men and women are different. the majority of the posts from men on this topic bear that out. women either accept it or live alone because the insecurity card will always be thrown in our faces.





> We have talked. Like most men, he enjoys porn & looking at pretty women. he did say he understood why I felt the way I do and wants to work on it. He doesn't want to end the relationship or lose me. regarding taking pictures he said he understood why that was wrong and why I was upset





> Generalizations are generally true. What would deleting or not viewing porn do to resolve the original issue of seeking images that look like exes or taking life of random women & keeping them on your phone?


Ok, so these are nearly all of your posts in this thread. So, WHY would you ASK him to remove porn pics? Not just any porn pics, but ones that resemble an ex? Ok, from what I gathered, by going back and re-reading your posts, porn, in general, you are ok with. It's the pics resembling his ex that bother you. Why would you NOT ask for those SPECIFIC ones deleted? If you are ok with porn in general, how do you not see this suggestion as a possible compromise? I'm going to guess that in THIS case, you are, indeed, worried that he will see it as insecurity. Whether you want to admit it or not, that is how you feel. The thought that he is looking at pics of women who look like his ex has you concerned that he is wishing he had stayed with her...even with him saying he wants the marriage to work. You will probably deny that suggestion, which is fine. But, honestly? That is what it looks like. You are afraid that if you ask him to get rid of THOSE pics, he will see how insecure you are, as far as the EX is concerned.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

I didn't ask him to delete any porn from anywhere. Photos of scantily clad exes - that's a problem.

I just say that's odd behavior. If you want her or someone who looks like her, tell me and go. I told him this. I am a big girl in that sense at least. I see it as strange. He is a porndog, no doubt. Just be honest. We went over this a year ago. Sexual pics of exes unacceptable. Clearly its a proclivity if its surfacing again only with porn pics that look like exes. Am I wrong to be upset? I am deciding if I want to stay. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice...


----------



## lamaga

honeysuckle rose said:


> Generalizations are generally true.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, Honeysuckle, generalizations are NOT generally true, and your responses here to people who have tried to deal with you respectfully have not exactly covered you with glory.

As I said on your other post, you are dancing around whatever your real issue is.

But whatever. You know best, I'm sure.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

lamaga said:


> No, Honeysuckle, generalizations are NOT generally true, and your responses here to people who have tried to deal with you respectfully have not exactly covered you with glory.
> 
> As I said on your other post, you are dancing around whatever your real issue is.
> 
> But whatever. You know best, I'm sure.


I respectfully disagree and thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CallaLily

Have some porn on your phone or computer of some hot guys, if he were to say something about it, tell him to shut his face and just accept it.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

CallaLily said:


> Have some porn on your phone or computer of some hot guys, if he were to say something about it, tell him to shut his face and just accept it.


He wouldn't care. And if he did, he would take that as a sign I want more sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> He wouldn't care. And if he did, he would take that as a sign I want more sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which wouldn't do either because you are detached from sex with him anyway, right? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...tant-love-component-your-wife-during-sex.html


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Maricha75 said:


> Which wouldn't do either because you are detached from sex with him anyway, right?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...tant-love-component-your-wife-during-sex.html


I apologize for not sharing all the information. But if you could actually read you would realize why I am detached. Please stop wasting my time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

honeysuckle rose said:


> I apologize for not sharing all the information. But if you could actually read you would realize why I am detached. Please stop wasting my time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I could read? Are you serious? I CAN read. You are detached because he insists on having those pics of exes..or pics who LOOK like his exes. I read it. And you were given advice from people on here. What I don't understand is why you seem to feel the need for personal attacks. That makes no sense. I never called you pathetic. I never said anything implying you were stupid or anything like that. So, I truly cannot understand why the vehemence in your posts directed at me.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Maricha75 said:


> If I could read? Are you serious? I CAN read. You are detached because he insists on having those pics of exes..or pics who LOOK like his exes. I read it. And you were given advice from people on here. What I don't understand is why you seem to feel the need for personal attacks. That makes no sense. I never called you pathetic. I never said anything implying you were stupid or anything like that. So, I truly cannot understand why the vehemence in your posts directed at me.


well we are both confused and at a loss. Let's call it even. And I apologize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose

in my original post I suppose I was trying to get an answer to the broader topic of why porn is so important and why its kept by certain men on their phones. That's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Phenix70

trey69 said:


> I have seen my share of porn in my life. It was nothing that I really felt I needed or had to have, it was ok for me to watch once in awhile. Watched it more when I was single etc. Watched some while married with the wife. As I got older I watched it less and less, it just didn't do much for me. My wife is enough for me. She is MY visual.
> 
> Back when I watched it some and we watched it together, she really didn't have a problem with it*. BUT I will tell you, if she had a problem with it, if it bothered her, and our marriage was suffering because of it, and she asked me to stop would I? Yes, its about respect, and sacrifice. Why would I continue to do something that was hurtful to her and the marriage? Would I expect the same from her? Yes, I would. If she was into something that was damaging our marriage and I asked her to stop, I would hope she would have the respect to do so.*
> 
> If she didn't, then I would need rethink some things about the marriage, and I would hope she would do the same If I chose to continue on doing what I was doing that bothered her.


And that is exactly how I feel, why do something that you know causes issues with your SO, regardless of what that something is.
Insert anything else for porn & I think most people would say "oh your SO should refrain from doing that!" because it's an issue for your SO & therefore your relationship.
But have that issue be porn & people get all up in arms & suddenly it's the SO's problem to just accept it or walk.
Imagine if that was the advice give for all the things that cause issues in relationships, then there would be no need for IC, MC or even TAM.


----------



## Mephisto

Phenix70 said:


> And you obviously do not understand WOMEN.
> Comparing sex acts to chocolate, are you kidding me?
> 
> Men watch porn because of testoserone?
> That has got to be the lamest excuse yet.
> That's no different than saying "I'm a man" to justify having an affair.
> "Oh, I couldn't keep my d*ck in my pants because I have testosterone cursing through my body!"
> There is no NEED for porn to masturbate, please note I put NEED.
> And I think that if someone relies on using it to get off, I think they're lazy.
> Come on, aren't we always told that the brain is the largest sex organ?
> There is something more going on when a man CHOSES to use porn as a masturbation aid.
> AND that is the crux of this situation, the WHY.


Lady, you asked WHY men WANT to look at porn, you wanted to know WHY we would DESIRE to continue looking at it regardless of the feelings of a SO.

You disregard the facts I lay out as to what makes porn so attractive and addictive to men, fine it is your want to do that, it does not change the facts. 

Men do not watch porn because of Testosterone, they are attracted to sex because of it, they watch porn because of the Dopamine that is released during the act, which is ADDICTIVE. It is an act that the brain finds arousing and stimulating therefore rewards the body with a "hit" of the drug. As exposure increases, so too does the resistance to the Dopamine so larger quantities are required to re-visit that same "high." 

You are quite correct, there is no NEED for porn in masturbation, but it does make it a lot more enjoyable, just as there is no need for kissing/licking/sucking during sex, but it makes it a lot better for both partners. There is no need for foreplay either, but women sure appreciate it far more than men! We are not talking NEEDS here, but what each partner WANTS.

Just as women need a plethora of extra-copulatory stimuli to encourage the state needed for orgasm, so to do males find it easier to orgasm with visual stimuli, especially when indulging in "self love." You want words, touches, gestures, intent and innuendo to just get you in the mood, we men need none of that, but the added stimulus of sex on the screen pushes us over the edge a lot easier than relying on thoughts and memories.

You scoff and dis-count the idea that sex and chocolate can be used in the same sentence, NEWS FLASH!!!!! They, (sex and chocolate), release the SAME hormones in women!!!!!!! Endorphins and Serotonin create a euphoric and contented feeling.... along with about 300 other chemical reactions in the brain, all from a piece of chocolate.

Porn and masturbation are not mutually exclusive, but men do not focus well on more than one thing at a time, when we masturbate, we masturbate, when we eat, we eat, when we have sex, we have sex. However, it is not hard to watch pleasing stimuli and pleasure ourselves, so porn is an easy aid to masturbation, women on the other hand will imagine some past experience or desired experience to move her motorboat beyond an idle, but that is in HER head and is not difficult for a woman with a brain geared for multitasking.

You want to bring irrelevant material into this discussion by pointing out infidelity and grasp onto my reference to Testosterone as an excuse. You clearly failed to actually ready the post beyond that word. 

Ever wonder why your man is more loving after sex???? It is because the act of ejaculation actually releases another hormone in him, it is Oxytocin, same one that is released during breastfeeding in women, they inject women with a synthetic version to induce labour(Syntocinon), it creates the feeling of LOVE, therefore referred to as the love hormone. It actually raises the amount of Oxytocin in the man after orgasm, to the level a woman has NORMALLY, it is the only time that men and women are TRULY close in the amount of LOVE they feel.

If you want to argue more with me, come armed with facts. I know far more about the human condition, male or female than most. Do I actually understand women? Hell no, because I do not experience life the way you do. Am I able to empathize? Sometimes, because I see things from an entirely different perspective to you, and to see it from your perspective requires more effort than I am willing to extend a lot of the time. 

The brain may well be the largest sex organ in the body according to some, but men are only equipped with enough blood to run one head at a time.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think its a bit juvenile and insensitive for a man to surround himself with pornographic images when he is either married or in a LTR.
Women are naturally exhibitionist and competitive. A woman uses her ability to tease/ tempt a man to validate herself sexually. So if porn is turning him on constantly,she feels less of a woman or " unsexy." If a man is single then its " his stuff." When he is married,then things change. What turns a married woman on is letting her know that she is the centre of your sexual fantasies ,AND MEANING IT.
Even the most beautiful woman is afraid or weary of the promiscuous teenage girl next door , or the slu*tly MILF who lives three houses down . They hate competition in any form. They see porn as competition.


----------



## Mephisto

Caribbean Man said:


> I think its a bit juvenile and insensitive for a man to surround himself with pornographic images when he is either married or in a LTR.
> Women are naturally exhibitionist and competitive. A woman uses her ability to tease/ tempt a man to validate herself sexually. So if porn is turning him on constantly,she feels less of a woman or " unsexy." If a man is single then its " his stuff." When he is married,then things change. What turns a married woman on is letting her know that she is the centre of your sexual fantasies ,AND MEANING IT.
> Even the most beautiful woman is afraid or weary of the promiscuous teenage girl next door , or the slu*tly MILF who lives three houses down . They hate competition in any form. They see porn as competition.


As they should, just as a man must be wary of the plumber/gardener/handyman. In the absence of competition, grows conceit/complacency.


----------



## CallaLily

Whoa some people love their porn!


----------



## anony2

I think it is down right silly to compare porn to romance novels and this is why: the bodies of the naked women in porn are real, the men in romance novels are fiction. 

So to me a good comparison of the husband watching porn would be the wife fantasizing about having an emotional affair with another man. 

If the husband doesn't have any problem with his wife doing that, then the wife shouldn't care if he looks at porn.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

anony2 said:


> i think it is down right silly to compare porn to romance novels and this is why: The bodies of the naked women in porn are real, the men in romance novels are fiction.
> 
> So to me a good comparison of the husband watching porn would be the wife fantasizing about having an emotional affair with another man.
> 
> If the husband doesn't have any problem with his wife doing that, then the wife shouldn't care if he looks at porn.



Bingo!!! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!


----------



## Peachy Cat

I have a friend who is truly gorgeous. She is blessed with great genes. She's got a knock out body, she looks great in anything she wears, she's sweet and honest, old people and children adore her.. she's just the "whole package". 

She loved her husband. She really was so into him. Sometimes the rest of us girls would tease her about being "**** whipped" because she was so in love and thoughtful of him. The two of them teased and flirted like newly weds (most of us were secretly jealous of the obvious chemistry between them). That they had a really great sex life was no secret in our circle of friends.

She found porn on his lap top and it totally destroyed her. She just fell apart. They divorced and he's been miserable since then (about 5 years ago). She has remarried and has a great guy (I like him better than the first one!). Her ex has regretted looking at porn for 5 years. It's sad that he chose to do something so STUPID and juvenile when he had the real deal all along. He still loves her, but it's too late: you cannot undo that kind of hurt. You cannot give her back the self-esteem and respect she had. She's still the same gorgeous, great gal she always was and he's a sad sight and really has no life anymore...true story


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Peachy Cat said:


> I have a friend who is truly gorgeous. She is blessed with great genes. She's got a knock out body, she looks great in anything she wears, she's sweet and honest, old people and children adore her.. she's just the "whole package".
> 
> She loved her husband. She really was so into him. Sometimes the rest of us girls would tease her about being "**** whipped" because she was so in love and thoughtful of him. The two of them teased and flirted like newly weds (most of us were secretly jealous of the obvious chemistry between them). That they had a really great sex life was no secret in our circle of friends.
> 
> She found porn on his lap top and it totally destroyed her. She just fell apart. They divorced and he's been miserable since then (about 5 years ago). She has remarried and has a great guy (I like him better than the first one!). Her ex has regretted looking at porn for 5 years. It's sad that he chose to do something so STUPID and juvenile when he had the real deal all along. He still loves her, but it's too late: you cannot undo that kind of hurt. You cannot give her back the self-esteem and respect she had. She's still the same gorgeous, great gal she always was and he's a sad sight and really has no life anymore...true story


So unnecessary and sad...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Phenix70

Mephisto said:


> Lady, you asked WHY men WANT to look at porn, you wanted to know WHY we would DESIRE to continue looking at it regardless of the feelings of a SO.
> 
> You disregard the facts I lay out as to what makes porn so attractive and addictive to men, fine it is your want to do that, it does not change the facts.
> 
> Men do not watch porn because of Testosterone, they are attracted to sex because of it, they watch porn because of the Dopamine that is released during the act, which is ADDICTIVE. It is an act that the brain finds arousing and stimulating therefore rewards the body with a "hit" of the drug. As exposure increases, so too does the resistance to the Dopamine so larger quantities are required to re-visit that same "high."
> 
> You are quite correct, there is no NEED for porn in masturbation, but it does make it a lot more enjoyable, just as there is no need for kissing/licking/sucking during sex, but it makes it a lot better for both partners. There is no need for foreplay either, but women sure appreciate it far more than men! We are not talking NEEDS here, but what each partner WANTS.
> 
> *Just as women need a plethora of extra-copulatory stimuli to encourage the state needed for orgasm, so to do males find it easier to orgasm with visual stimuli, especially when indulging in "self love." You want words, touches, gestures, intent and innuendo to just get you in the mood, we men need none of that, but the added stimulus of sex on the screen pushes us over the edge a lot easier than relying on thoughts and memories.*
> *You scoff and dis-count the idea that sex and chocolate can be used in the same sentence, NEWS FLASH!!!!! They, (sex and chocolate), release the SAME hormones in women!!!!!!! Endorphins and Serotonin create a euphoric and contented feeling.... along with about 300 other chemical reactions in the brain, all from a piece of chocolate.*
> 
> Porn and masturbation are not mutually exclusive, but men do not focus well on more than one thing at a time, when we masturbate, we masturbate, when we eat, we eat, when we have sex, we have sex. However, it is not hard to watch pleasing stimuli and pleasure ourselves, so porn is an easy aid to masturbation, women on the other hand will imagine some past experience or desired experience to move her motorboat beyond an idle, but that is in HER head and is not difficult for a woman with a brain geared for multitasking.
> 
> You want to bring irrelevant material into this discussion by pointing out infidelity and grasp onto my reference to Testosterone as an excuse. You clearly failed to actually ready the post beyond that word.
> 
> Ever wonder why your man is more loving after sex???? It is because the act of ejaculation actually releases another hormone in him, it is Oxytocin, same one that is released during breastfeeding in women, they inject women with a synthetic version to induce labour(Syntocinon), it creates the feeling of LOVE, therefore referred to as the love hormone. It actually raises the amount of Oxytocin in the man after orgasm, to the level a woman has NORMALLY, it is the only time that men and women are TRULY close in the amount of LOVE they feel.
> 
> If you want to argue more with me, come armed with facts. I know far more about the human condition, male or female than most. Do I actually understand women? Hell no, because I do not experience life the way you do. Am I able to empathize? Sometimes, because I see things from an entirely different perspective to you, and to see it from your perspective requires more effort than I am willing to extend a lot of the time.
> 
> The brain may well be the largest sex organ in the body according to some, but men are only equipped with enough blood to run one head at a time.



Oxytocin & serotonin are more likely to be found in long term relationships, whereas in a new relationship, norepinephrine is more apt to be the main neurochemical, along with phenylethylamine.
Your initial attraction to someone causes your body to produce more phenylethylamine, which then releases more norepinephrine & dopamine.
All of which doesn't happen when watching porn. 
Excess porn use dysregulates dopamine in men, which in turn affects oxytocin.
A disruption in these pathways is associated with behaviorial disorders.

See, you're not the only one who knows quite a bit about the chemicals secreted by humans when it comes to sex.
Now, if you want to continue the "who knows more" contest, we can, but it's pointless & quite frankly a waste of this thread. 

Regarding women & their sexuality, there are women who don't need lots of foreplay to have sex & don't need to be in the "right state of mind", they can be just as raring to go as a man.
We're not all vapid, emotional creatures who have to have a man get us worked up in order to have sex.
I'm an equal to my husband when it comes to sex, he doesn't have to get me all worked up in order to have the privilege of having sex with me. (Said with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
Nor do I just lie there & do it as my duty. 

Oh & I love chocolate, but never in a million years would I ever take it over sex because there is no comparison between the two.
I don't have fantasies about that molten cake I had.


----------



## Maricha75

Phenix70 said:


> Oh & I love chocolate, but never in a million years would I ever take it over sex because there is no comparison between the two.
> *I don't have fantasies about that molten cake I had.*


In my case, I think it would be more of a nightmare, sadly. My body HATES excess sugar... and no, sugar-free chocolate is NOT the same thing, unfortunately.


----------



## Phenix70

Maricha75 said:


> In my case, I think it would be more of a nightmare, sadly. My body HATES excess sugar... and no, sugar-free chocolate is NOT the same thing, unfortunately.


I'm sad for you!!! 
Sugar-free chocolate tastes like chalky plastic & raw chocolate is even worse.
But hey, at least you have sex.


----------



## SoWhat

Did anyone answer Tacoma's question?

Is it okay if it's a fantasy of another woman in his head, as long as it's not something he's seeing on a screen or magazine?

That is, if porn for masturbation is wrong, is fantasizing about a hot actress or a coworker or ex-girlfriend while masturbation similarly wrong?

99% of men masturbate. 
Almost all of them like a visual stimulus of some kind while they do.
If that turns you off, you need to do what you can to find the 1% of men who do not masturbate.

Edit: 
Just to be clear, I'm not "blaming" women. I'm saying - if masturbation/porn is a dealbreaker for you, you are going to have to be very, very, very selective with men, as the number of men who don't masturbate (with some visual or mind's eye stimulus) is incredibly small.


----------



## Maricha75

SoWhat said:


> Did anyone answer Tacoma's question?
> 
> Is it okay if it's a fantasy of another woman in his head, as long as it's not something he's seeing on a screen or magazine?
> 
> That is, if porn for masturbation is wrong, is fantasizing about a hot actress or a coworker or ex-girlfriend while masturbation similarly wrong?
> 
> 99% of men masturbate.
> Almost all of them like a visual stimulus of some kind while they do.
> If that turns you off, you need to do what you can to find the 1% of men who do not masturbate.


Yes, after he posted like 3 or 4 times, it got answered.


----------



## SoWhat

I saw you answered, and thank you for that. Tacoma's question is something I asked several times in the past and don't like how it *does* seem to get ignored often. 

Prehistoric man was drawing porn on cave walls tens of thousands of years ago. Constant flashes of sexual mental imagery is simply a hallmark of having testosterone at the levels we do.

So let's do an is/ought distinction:

Even if men everywhere *ought* not look at porn, or fantasize about women other than their wives/gf's, or look at Victoria's Secret, or whatever, while masturbating. 

most men *are* going to do these things. 

If a woman thinks that having any sort of visual or mentally-visual stimulus for masturbation is wrong, she will need to find the 1% of men who do not masturbate or who only masturbate while thinking or looking at their wives/gfs.


----------



## Phenix70

SoWhat said:


> Did anyone answer Tacoma's question?
> 
> Is it okay if it's a fantasy of another woman in his head, as long as it's not something he's seeing on a screen or magazine?
> 
> That is, if porn for masturbation is wrong, is fantasizing about a hot actress or a coworker or ex-girlfriend while masturbation similarly wrong?
> 
> 99% of men masturbate.
> Almost all of them like a visual stimulus of some kind while they do.
> If that turns you off, you need to do what you can to find the 1% of men who do not masturbate.
> 
> Edit:
> Just to be clear, I'm not "blaming" women. I'm saying - if masturbation/porn is a dealbreaker for you, you are going to have to be very, very, very selective with men, as the number of men who don't masturbate (with some visual or mind's eye stimulus) is incredibly small.


Do some research, masturbation isn't the problem, it's the viewing of porn that's the issue, it changes the way a man thinks & also responds to real women.
Just to make it easier for you,from a secular site.
Porn Then and Now: Welcome to Brain Training | Psychology Today

And to quote the article,
""It was getting pretty bad. I would take a chick home and sometimes not even be able to get my d*ck up because porn had rewired my brain and conditioned it to have 5-6 girls at a time. One girl, even though she was there in person, was not doing the trick."

Now, considering that here on TAM, women are told over & over again that their SO's bond with them sexually, that having sex is how men show love, I think it's more than prudent to do whatever you can to protect that bond.
If watching porn takes a man away from his wife & replaces her with pixels and lotion, how is that healthy for the survival of their marriage? 
I've seen thread, after thread, after thread about women being turned down from their husband because their husbands are watching internet porn & losing interest in having sex with their wives.
That is NOT healthy, in any way, shape or form.
If you personally can go watch porn & still be able to perform at 100% capacity for your wife, more power to you, but more often than not, that is not the case, all you have to do is read this board to see that.


----------



## Maricha75

SoWhat said:


> Did anyone answer Tacoma's question?
> 
> Is it okay if it's a fantasy of another woman in his head, as long as it's not something he's seeing on a screen or magazine?
> 
> That is, if porn for masturbation is wrong, is fantasizing about a hot actress or a coworker or ex-girlfriend while masturbation similarly wrong?
> 
> 99% of men masturbate.
> Almost all of them like a visual stimulus of some kind while they do.
> If that turns you off, you need to do what you can to find the 1% of men who do not masturbate.
> 
> Edit:
> Just to be clear, I'm not "blaming" women. I'm saying - if masturbation/porn is a dealbreaker for you, you are going to have to be very, very, very selective with men, as the number of men who don't masturbate (with some visual or mind's eye stimulus) is incredibly small.


Fortunately, for me, I found a man in that 1%... thank you.


----------



## enso

honeysuckle rose said:


> Why do husbands think wives should be ok with saving images? Why is porn so important to you all? Please refrain from "it's just a photo," or "at least he comes home to you." Why should that make wives feel better about your behavior? Not being snarky. Honestly seeking your rationale. Thank you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Men were put on earth to procreate and these are built into our genetics. Some have more control of these urges then others.We are all sexual beings and I see nothing wrong with admiring beauty as long as it is not an obsession.


----------



## ocotillo

Phenix70 said:


> DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it.
> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
> A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
> Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
> There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


Phenix; Do you recognize a distinction between 'Porn' and 'Erotica?'


----------



## SoWhat

Phenix70 said:


> Do some research, masturbation isn't the problem, it's the viewing of porn that's the issue, it changes the way a man thinks & also responds to real women.
> Just to make it easier for you,from a secular site.
> Porn Then and Now: Welcome to Brain Training | Psychology Today
> 
> And to quote the article,
> ""It was getting pretty bad. I would take a chick home and sometimes not even be able to get my d*ck up because porn had rewired my brain and conditioned it to have 5-6 girls at a time. One girl, even though she was there in person, was not doing the trick."
> 
> Now, considering that here on TAM, women are told over & over again that their SO's bond with them sexually, that having sex is how men show love, I think it's more than prudent to do whatever you can to protect that bond.
> If watching porn takes a man away from his wife & replaces her with pixels and lotion, how is that healthy for the survival of their marriage?
> I've seen thread, after thread, after thread about women being turned down from their husband because their husbands are watching internet porn & losing interest in having sex with their wives.
> That is NOT healthy, in any way, shape or form.
> If you personally can go watch porn & still be able to perform at 100% capacity for your wife, more power to you, but more often than not, that is not the case, all you have to do is read this board to see that.



Phenix,
are you okay with mental visualization of actresses, porn stars, ex-girlfriends/ex-wives? 
How about sexy movies (not porn)?
Swimsuit Edition?

What kind of imagery is acceptable and what isn't?


----------



## SoWhat

Maricha75 said:


> Fortunately, for me, I found a man in that 1%... thank you.


And, since it's important to you, you are very lucky indeed. Congratulations - sincerely.


----------



## Phenix70

ocotillo said:


> Phenix; Do you recognize a distinction between 'Porn' and 'Erotica?'


To me, erotica stimulates mind & body, you're reading to get aroused physically & to inmmerse yourself in the story. 
Porn purpose is to arouse, no one watches for the plotlines or the acting abilities of the stars, no imagination involved, everything is laid out for you already. 



SoWhat said:


> Phenix,
> are you okay with mental visualization of actresses, porn stars, ex-girlfriends/ex-wives?
> How about sexy movies (not porn)?
> Swimsuit Edition?
> 
> What kind of imagery is acceptable and what isn't?


Not a problem for me, because those things don't change the chemical pathway in the brain.
I'm not an idiot, I've done my research regarding the effects of porn use on men. 
It would do you some good to actually go do your own research.
It's not harmless & though men start out thinking "oh what's the harm in watching, it won't be a problem for me."
Yeah, it's that same kind of thinking that gets people involved in affairs, they think it won't happen to them because they have control over the situation.
That's the wrong kind of mindset to have. 
Don't put yourself in the situation to begin with...sounds pretty simple to me. 
Now, you & any other men can continue to protest that it's harmless, but you're not in my life, so it belittles the point of you trying to change my mind.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

tacoma said:


> So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?
> 
> Is the fantasy in his head ok?
> Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?


I think it's best to talk about sex a lot,expectations etc.

I prefer sex to masturbation, I'm also available for sex whenever he wants to have it.

Despite that, when we masturbate, I don't believe we have to fantasize about other people. Rather we take our favourite fantasies and put each other in them. Easy.

Men do not have to watch porn or oggle other women, or fantasize about having sex with other women, if they choose not to. Women do not have to do the same either. Men might be visual, but women are supposed to be genetically wired to all ways be on the lookout for the fittest man who can provide the most. Does that mean she can't help but dump her husband and run off with another man every few years? I mean how can she possibly stay faithful? 
It seems to be an acceptable norm now to be overtly sexual about every other man and women on the planet, however the amount of sexual disconnect and unsatisfying sex lives is huge. 

I believe the most satisfying sex lives come from focusing on each other. 

When you have sex with or masturbate fantasising about someone you bond with that person, it is a form of human pair bonding, the more you do that with your souse the more likely you are to stay with them and feel bonded to them. There are lots of things we can do to bond and ensure human pair bonding but sex, orgasms and so forth is one of the most powerful.

Also to say that pornography does not exploit women is ridiculous. As often they use underage girls, women are pressured to do things they wouldn't normally do and are often raped, sexual assault is rife and rarely reported. Most porn stars are under 24, less likely to be educated, usually form poor socio economic areas with few choices. Also the sex industry uses sex slaves (traficked women and girls) whenever you use the sex industry in any form, you can never be sure if the woman was a sex slave. Most of the industry still relies heavily on getting the women and girls hooked on drugs and alcohol. If it wasn't exploitative of women and girls, then these would not be huge issues within the industry.

Also porn can be highly addictive, it does change the neural pathways and pleasure receptors in the brain, and can make it hard for many men to be turned on without thinking about or watching porn. It does not hep them tune into their spouse. It has been shown to make men and women feel worse about themselves and enjoy sex less and less, it is also a massive problems in relationships, in fact one of the biggest issues being bought to marriage counselling. 

If porn wasn't an issue there wouldn't be thousands of threads on here by men and women who have felt the very detrimental effects of porn.


----------



## ocotillo

Phenix70 said:


> To me, erotica stimulates mind & body, you're reading to get aroused physically & to inmmerse yourself in the story.
> Porn purpose is to arouse, no one watches for the plotlines or the acting abilities of the stars, no imagination involved, everything is laid out for you already.


Thank you for your answer. I owe you an apology for failing to distinguish between visual and written erotica. 

The reason I asked is pretty much the reason I came to TAM in the first place. My wife's family are fundamentalists and my youngest is majoring in Art History.

It's been a constant source of family friction to hide her textbooks every time they drop in for a visit. It's axiomatic in art that you can't paint what's on the surface unless you understand what's below. Therefore the study of the unadorned human body is an integral part of any collegiate level course in the field. This is especially true of Art History because it covers periods in human history where people were less obsessed with the Post-Victorian body modesty taboo.

Pornography is by definition sexually explicit or obscene. Although the depiction of the unadorned human body often does qualify as erotica, it does not meet the definitional criteria of pornography. My wife's family unfortunately does not see it that way.

I am going to question the distinction you've drawn above on linguistic grounds though. 

The word, "Pornography" comes to us from the French _pornographie_, which in turn is derived from the Greek, πορνογραφος. (pornographos) It's a compound word formed by fusing πορνή (Prostitute) with γραφος (writing) and literally meant "Writings of prostitutes."

Unlike Greek terms of recent origin like "photograph" or "cardiograph" this is a real, bonafide ancient word that was used in speech. It described sexually explicit stories produced for prurient entertainment. That has been the definition for over 90% of the word's existence and is still the primary definition in most dictionaries.


----------



## Phenix70

ocotillo said:


> Thank you for your answer. I owe you an apology for failing to distinguish between visual and written erotica.
> 
> The reason I asked is pretty much the reason I came to TAM in the first place. My wife's family are fundamentalists and my youngest is majoring in Art History.
> 
> It's been a constant source of family friction to hide her textbooks every time they drop in for a visit. It's axiomatic in art that you can't paint what's on the surface unless you understand what's below. Therefore the study of the unadorned human body is an integral part of any collegiate level course in the field. This is especially true of Art History because it covers periods in human history where people were less obsessed with the Post-Victorian body modesty taboo.
> 
> Pornography is by definition sexually explicit or obscene. Although the depiction of the unadorned human body often does qualify as erotica, it does not meet the definitional criteria of pornography. My wife's family unfortunately does not see it that way.
> 
> I am going to question the distinction you've drawn above on linguistic grounds though.
> 
> The word, "Pornography" comes to us from the French _pornographie_, which in turn is derived from the Greek, πορνογραφος. (pornographos) It's a compound word formed by fusing πορνή (Prostitute) with γραφος (writing) and literally meant "Writings of prostitutes."
> 
> Unlike Greek terms of recent origin like "photograph" or "cardiograph" this is a real, bonafide ancient word that was used in speech. It described sexually explicit stories produced for prurient entertainment. That has been the definition for over 90% of the word's existence and is still the primary definition in most dictionaries.



My apologies as well, I should use "Internet Porn", instead of just the generic "porn."
I need to make sure I'm as succinct as possible to ensure no misunderstandings. 
One of my favorite quotes is "*But I know it when I see it*, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that"- Justice Stewart, describing his threshold test for pornography.
I like erotic literature, my husband & I have read it to one another & we also write it to each other.
The stories we write each other are far more stimulating than anything I've read elsewhere. 

How frustrating your inlaws must be, to see the human form in art as pornographic.
That is unless your youngest child's books feature the photos of Robert Mapplethorpe. 
I can only imagine what your family gatherings must be like.
I wonder what things will be like come graduation time....


----------



## SoWhat

I'm not trying to convince you that porn is morally acceptable.

I'm saying: there's an is/ought distinction here.

Even if you believe men *ought* not look at porn,
the overwhelming majority of men *do* look at porn.

Women who think it's wrong and don't want a man who looks at it have, by my utterly unscientific guess, a 1 in 100 shot at finding such a man, if that's the sole criteria. Add in all the other things one looks for in their mate, and how difficult those are to find for any given person, and it's pretty tough odds. 

I have no problem with women making this a boundary. I don't think that public opinion or public action equals morality - if everyone was torturing infants, I'd still be opposed to it.


----------



## anony2

ocotillo said:


> Thank you for your answer. I owe you an apology for failing to distinguish between visual and written erotica.
> 
> The reason I asked is pretty much the reason I came to TAM in the first place. My wife's family are fundamentalists and my youngest is majoring in Art History.
> 
> It's been a constant source of family friction to hide her textbooks every time they drop in for a visit. It's axiomatic in art that you can't paint what's on the surface unless you understand what's below. Therefore the study of the unadorned human body is an integral part of any collegiate level course in the field. This is especially true of Art History because it covers periods in human history where people were less obsessed with the Post-Victorian body modesty taboo.
> 
> Pornography is by definition sexually explicit or obscene. Although the depiction of the unadorned human body often does qualify as erotica, it does not meet the definitional criteria of pornography. My wife's family unfortunately does not see it that way.
> 
> I am going to question the distinction you've drawn above on linguistic grounds though.
> 
> The word, "Pornography" comes to us from the French _pornographie_, which in turn is derived from the Greek, πορνογραφος. (pornographos) It's a compound word formed by fusing πορνή (Prostitute) with γραφος (writing) and literally meant "Writings of prostitutes."
> 
> Unlike Greek terms of recent origin like "photograph" or "cardiograph" this is a real, bonafide ancient word that was used in speech. It described sexually explicit stories produced for prurient entertainment. That has been the definition for over 90% of the word's existence and is still the primary definition in most dictionaries.



Is the word 'prostitute' in today's society a positive or a negative word?

Has any father said: "My daughter is a prostitute, and I am darn proud of her accomplishments"...??

Is it okay for women to be prostitutes while they are married?

If not, why not? 

If it is okay for a married man to watch the 'writings of prostitutes' (aka pornography), then there should be no problem with his wife being a prostitute.


----------



## momtwo4

My husband pretty much replaced sex with me with porn during several of my pregnancies. I only really recently figured this out (and he admitted it as well). We really had very little sex when I was pregnant. This was not because I turned him away either. He just did not seemed to be turned on to me while pregnant (especially when I started showing). He hardly ever approached me for sex. Honestly, I didn't approach him either, and I was too distracted by feeling sick and tired to really think much of it. It has only been after my last child (he is now 15 months) that I've noticed a major surge in his sex drive. At first it was confusing to me. Why did he suddenly want sex with me several times a week? 

Well, our computer in our basement crashed and his increase in sex-drive corresponded to that crash. We now only have one laptop that I use upstairs for work in the evenings. There isn't much opportunity for porn anymore. I've "caught" him looking at porn several times during our marriage, but I didn't realize how much he was doing it until I confronted him about it. 

Sex for us (including foreplay) is a 10-minute experience and he attributes this to being less sensitive because of pornography. Has porn caused issues in our marriage? I would say so. We were physically disconnected during my pregnancies, and it has been a struggle for me to reconnect with him sexually since he now wants regular sex with me.

I obviously do not have a favorable opinion of porn for several reasons. Comparing porn to chocolate or a romance novel? Oh, please. How can you compare the most intimate physical connection with your partner to a book or food? 

What is the difference between using your imagination and looking at actual pictures? Well, I think that porn is a lot more addictive than the "imaginary images" a man could conjure up in his mind. It can perpetuate a very unhealthy cycle in a marriage.


----------



## momtwo4

anony2 said:


> Is the word 'prostitute' in today's society a positive or a negative word?
> 
> Has any father said: "My daughter is a prostitute, and I am darn proud of her accomplishments"...??
> 
> Is it okay for women to be prostitutes while they are married?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> If it is okay for a married man to watch the 'writings of prostitutes' (aka pornography), then there should be no problem with his wife being a prostitute.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Most married men would be SO angry and offended if their wives posed in pornographic pictures. Yet it is okay for them to get off on naked pictures. How does that make sense? What many men seem to forget is that they are getting off on someone's daughter and maybe even someone's wife. It is impossible to know the circumstances that these women face and whether or not they have been coerced into pornography. What young girl states, "I want to be a porn actress when I grow up?"


----------



## SoWhat

Uh, if a man has sex with his wife he's getting off on someone's daughter...


----------



## Phenix70

SoWhat said:


> I'm not trying to convince you that porn is morally acceptable.
> 
> I'm saying: there's an is/ought distinction here.
> 
> Even if you believe men *ought* not look at porn,
> the overwhelming majority of men *do* look at porn.
> 
> Women who think it's wrong and don't want a man who looks at it have, by my utterly unscientific guess, a 1 in 100 shot at finding such a man, if that's the sole criteria. Add in all the other things one looks for in their mate, and how difficult those are to find for any given person, and it's pretty tough odds.
> 
> I have no problem with women making this a boundary. I don't think that public opinion or public action equals morality - if everyone was torturing infants, I'd still be opposed to it.


Have you read my reasons why I object to Internet Porn?
Morals has absolutely NOTHING to do with it!
So a woman disagrees with Internet Porn & most men think it's because she's a prude.
Wrong!!
Once again, research why Internet Porn is bad, forget the religious sites, read the secular sites instead because they don't bring religion into the equation. 

I am 100% against Internet Porn because of how it changes relationships, why is that so difficult for people to understand?
Considering that Internet Porn is a relatively recent invention, the issues that come along with it's use are also recent, issues that did not happen when men were just looking at nudie mags/the Sears Catalog/cave paintings.
Think about that, it's not pornographic images, it's Internet Porn.


----------



## momtwo4

SoWhat said:


> Uh, if a man has sex with his wife he's getting off on someone's daughter...


Uh, you miss the point. He is not ONLY getting off on someone's daughter. He has a relationship with that woman as a person and as an individual. He knows more than what her "*****" looks like.


----------



## anonim

tacoma said:


> Edit:
> On second thought you`re correct it is about respect.
> It`s about the mans inability to respect the woman`s insecurity no matter how hard she pushes it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


guess your SO saw this post and disagreed?

i agree with your original point


tacoma said:


> Nope, it's about insecurity.


 just as long as there are no other factors in play (i.e. looking at porn to the exclusion of sexing the mrs.) it generally comes down to _insecurity_, which is a *personal *issue.

That is to say its something that needs repaired within ones self, not by changing others behavior in order not to experience this insecurity. That's called enabling, isnt it?





CandieGirl said:


> Kind of like telling a man that he has a small penis...that kind of insecurity? Every man I've ever been with has had issue with his penis size. Every. Last. One.


Yes. This. Exactly. 

9/10 times, even if a guy has a smaller than average penis, its big enough to function effectively no? But he's worried in his head about if its good enough, when he should just be using and enjoying it ^^



CandieGirl said:


> I'm glad to see someone differentiate the difference between porn 'addictions' and simple recreational use. It's unfair to throw the insecure woman card EVERY time, and I gather lots of women are fed up of being told "every guy does it; get over it", as though it is our problem.


both 'insecure woman' and 'porn addict' labels are used to manipulate and shame men and women into acceptance of judgement. Rather a nasty thing to do to someone you claim you love.

If your (wo)man wont **** you because s/he prefers to jack/jill it to porn, you're not an insecure (wo)man. 

If you look at porn to get off because you're partner is a chronic refuser (and there are no other major problems in your relationship or life) you're not a porn addict.





SoWhat said:


> Did anyone answer Tacoma's question?
> 
> 
> 
> tacoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?
> 
> Is the fantasy in his head ok?
> Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?
Click to expand...

No. No one is ready for the turdstorm that will ensue.

I personally believe that if brain images could be recorded as a movie, it would come out that women are just as 'guilty' as men for using porn.





anony2 said:


> Is the word 'prostitute' in today's society a positive or a negative word? *Neither. if its not bad for a (wo)man to use the services of one, then its not bad to be one*
> 
> Has any father said: "My daughter is a prostitute, and I am darn proud of her accomplishments"...?? *I dont know, but if a child is happy and healthy and living a good life, i imagine a parent would be happy for them, regardless of profession*
> 
> Is it okay for women to be prostitutes while they are married, if not, why not? *that question is the same as any issue of conflict in a relationship; If the couple can agree on it then yes, if not they need to compromise or call it a day. as an idea theres no reason why not*
> 
> If it is okay for a married man to watch the 'writings of prostitutes' (aka pornography), then there should be no problem with his wife being a prostitute.[ *read last answer.*


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> guess your SO saw this post and disagreed?
> 
> i agree with your original point
> 
> 
> 
> just as long as there are no other factors in play (i.e. looking at porn to the exclusion of sexing the mrs.) it generally comes down to _insecurity_, which is a *personal *issue.
> 
> That is to say its something that needs repaired within ones self, not by changing others behavior in order not to experience this insecurity. That's called enabling.


It is important to understand WHY the husband or wife is insecure though. If you do things that make your marriage insecure, then the husband or wife is not going to feel secure and that is not just a personal issue, it is an issue of the marriage.

Also, if you get married to a person that you know that has been abused sexually (by molestation, rape, incest), then anything to do with sex is most likely going to be a cause of insecurity, because the security of of that person was robbed from them. You can either add to this as their partner, or help them through it.


----------



## SoWhat

Phenix70 said:


> Have you read my reasons why I object to Internet Porn?
> Morals has absolutely NOTHING to do with it!
> So a woman disagrees with Internet Porn & most men think it's because she's a prude.
> Wrong!!
> Once again, research why Internet Porn is bad, forget the religious sites, read the secular sites instead because they don't bring religion into the equation.
> 
> I am 100% against Internet Porn because of how it changes relationships, why is that so difficult for people to understand?
> Considering that Internet Porn is a relatively recent invention, the issues that come along with it's use are also recent, issues that did not happen when men were just looking at nudie mags/the Sears Catalog/cave paintings.
> Think about that, it's not pornographic images, it's Internet Porn.


Being "against" something is having a moral/ethical/prescriptive position on it. 

It requires "should not" language rather than "is not" language. 

Secular people and websites have moral positions as well. 

"Pornography changes brain chemistry" is a descriptive statement; "One should not have his brain chemistry altered" is a prescriptive/moral statement.


----------



## Phenix70

SoWhat said:


> Being "against" something is having a moral/ethical/prescriptive position on it.
> 
> It requires "should not" language rather than "is not" language.
> 
> Secular people and websites have moral positions as well.
> 
> "Pornography changes brain chemistry" is a descriptive statement; "One should not have his brain chemistry altered" is a prescriptive/moral statement.


I'm done with you, you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative & it's tedious.
You want to argue semantics & that's the lazy way to "debate."
Please take your ball & go play someplace else.


----------



## SoWhat

It's not merely semantics; I'm saying that you're advocating a particular moral/ethical/prescriptive position (that it is wrong to look at pornography) in addition to making a descriptive claim (that pornography changes the brain). 

The truth or falsity of the latter only has bearing on the former if we factor in more moral assumptions, such as "It is wrong to change the brain in this way" or the like. 

It's not a lazy way to debate. I'm saying you can't make the leap from a descriptive statement to a prescriptive one that easily.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> Yes. This. Exactly.
> 
> 9/10 times, even if a guy has a smaller than average penis, its big enough to function effectively no? But he's worried in his head about if its good enough, when he should just be using and enjoying it ^^
> 
> 
> 
> both 'insecure woman' and 'porn addict' labels are used to manipulate and shame men and women into acceptance of judgement. Rather a nasty thing to do to someone you claim you love.
> 
> If your (wo)man wont **** you because s/he prefers to jack/jill it to porn, you're not an insecure (wo)man.
> 
> If you look at porn to get off because you're partner is a chronic refuser (and there are no other major problems in your relationship or life) you're not a porn addict.


Do you think that a person gets to determine their sex drive?

If a person does not want to have sex as much as their partner, does that mean that something is _wrong_ with them?

Why is it in today's society, having a high sex drive is okay but having a lower sex drive is not?


----------



## *LittleDeer*

SoWhat said:


> Being "against" something is having a moral/ethical/prescriptive position on it.
> 
> It requires "should not" language rather than "is not" language.
> 
> Secular people and websites have moral positions as well.
> 
> "Pornography changes brain chemistry" is a descriptive statement; "One should not have his brain chemistry altered" is a prescriptive/moral statement.


What you are saying doesn't make sense IMO.

Moreover there is nothing wrong being morally opposed to porn. I am and there is nothing religious about it, its not because I'm uptight and don't like sex. It's because porn has many negative aspects and sex with your spouse, concentrating on them, involving them and having realistic sex with them has none. 

People using porn will justify it any way they can. It's very difficult when you have been doing something seen as a norm and enjoying it sexually to admit it is highly likely harmful.


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> Do you think that a person gets to determine their sex drive?
> 
> If a person does not want to have sex as much as their partner, does that mean that something is _wrong_ with them?



No. 
Conversely, does the lowest-desiring spouse get to set the other's solo sexual agenda? 

I don't like chick flicks. 
I don't tell the GF she can't watch them on her own. 
(Hell, I watch them with her.)


----------



## SoWhat

*LittleDeer* said:


> What you are saying doesn't make sense IMO.
> 
> Moreover there is nothing wrong being morally opposed to porn. I am and there is nothing religious about it, its not because I'm uptight and don't like sex. It's because porn has many negative aspects and sex with your spouse, concentrating on them, involving them and having realistic sex with them has none.
> 
> People using porn will justify it any way they can. It's very difficult when you have been doing something seen as a norm and enjoying it sexually to admit it is highly likely harmful.



I didn't say there was anything religious about it. 

I also didn't say there was something wrong with being morally opposed to porn - at least not in my last few posts, in which I was discussing the relevancy of the is/ought split here.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> No.
> Conversely, does the lowest-desiring spouse get to set the other's solo sexual agenda?
> 
> I don't like chick flicks.
> I don't tell the GF she can't watch them on her own.
> (Hell, I watch them with her.)


But this is the difference, women are not sexually driven, they are emotionally driven. 

Chick flicks are not the same as porn flicks. The naked women on porn flicks are real, chick flicks are not real. 

Do you allow your woman to get her emotional needs met by other men if you aren't meeting them?

If not, why not?

If you do not, then doesn't that mean that you are insecure?


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> But this is the difference, women are not sexually driven, they are emotionally driven.
> 
> Chick flicks are not the same as porn flicks. The naked women on porn flicks are real, chick flicks are not real.
> 
> Do you allow your woman to get her emotional needs met by other men if you aren't meeting them?
> 
> If not, why not?


I wasn't trying to treat the two as being part of the same paradigm. I was just saying - just because I don't like doing X with you, doesn't mean you can't do X alone. 

My GF doesn't like the taste of fish. I do. She doesn't tell me I can't ever have a nice plate of fried catfish by myself. That's what I'm saying.

The 'other men meeting her emotional needs' thing is pretty off-base. A comparison to another solo activity would be more apt than having a 3rd party involved in the hypothetical. Such a comparison would make more sense if we were talking about infidelity.


----------



## momtwo4

anony2 said:


> But this is the difference, women are not sexually driven, they are emotionally driven.
> 
> Chick flicks are not the same as porn flicks. The naked women on porn flicks are real, chick flicks are not real.
> 
> Do you allow your woman to get her emotional needs met by other men if you aren't meeting them?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> If you do not, then doesn't that mean that you are insecure?


Great question! Let's say my husband is refusing to meet my "greatest need" for closeness and emotional intimacy. Is it okay if I go and look toward another man to fulfill those needs? I don't think my husband (or too many other husbands) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> But this is the difference, women are not sexually driven, they are emotionally driven.



Read around here - some women are more sexually driven than others, many moreso than their husbands. 

Generally speaking, I'm more interested in those sorts of women than the ones who have very little interest in sex. 

That's neither here nor there though.


----------



## SoWhat

momtwo4 said:


> Great question! Let's say my husband is refusing to meet my "greatest need" for closeness and emotional intimacy. Is it okay if I go and look toward another man to fulfill those needs? I don't think my husband (or too many other husbands) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.


I thought we were talking about pornography, not actual infidelity.


----------



## momtwo4

SoWhat said:


> I wasn't trying to treat the two as being part of the same paradigm. I was just saying - just because I don't like doing X with you, doesn't mean you can't do X alone.
> 
> My GF doesn't like the taste of fish. I do. She doesn't tell me I can't ever have a nice plate of fried catfish by myself. That's what I'm saying.
> 
> The 'other men meeting her emotional needs' thing is pretty off-base. A comparison to another solo activity would be more apt than having a 3rd party involved in the hypothetical. Such a comparison would make more sense if we were talking about infidelity.


I don't understand that at all. How are you not involving a "3rd party" when you look at porn? Are you looking at a real woman or a fake one? I think that is part of the problem. Men forget that they are looking at someone, not something.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

momtwo4 said:


> Great question! Let's say my husband is refusing to meet my "greatest need" for closeness and emotional intimacy. Is it okay if I go and look toward another man to fulfill those needs? I don't think my husband (or too many other husbands) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.


This is true, finding sexual satisfaction outside your relationship or finding emotional intimacy with another would be harmful to the relationship.

Men and women need to understand the importance of both of those things within the relationship.


----------



## SoWhat

momtwo4 said:


> I don't understand that at all. How are you not involving a "3rd party" when you look at porn? Are you looking at a real woman or a fake one? I think that is part of the problem. Men forget that they are looking at someone, not something.


You're "involving" a 3rd party to the same extent the wife is 'involving' George Clooney or Brad Pitt when she watches a chick flick.

Which is to say... very little.

If my wife/GF was dissatisfied with our emotional connection and got her needs met by watching romantic comedies with those actors, I would
(a) feel like I needed to meet her needs better, and
(b) not feel particularly threatened, or hurt, etc.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> I wasn't trying to treat the two as being part of the same paradigm. I was just saying - just because I don't like doing X with you, doesn't mean you can't do X alone.
> 
> My GF doesn't like the taste of fish. I do. She doesn't tell me I can't ever have a nice plate of fried catfish by myself. That's what I'm saying.
> 
> The 'other men meeting her emotional needs' thing is pretty off-base. A comparison to another solo activity would be more apt than having a 3rd party involved in the hypothetical. Such a comparison would make more sense if we were talking about infidelity.


Watching porn isn't a solo activity though, you are using another person to "get off", just because she is on a video instead of in person, doesn't make her any less real. 

The comparison to porn to catfish is not comparative at all to what we are talking about. The people that are on porn shows are not fish, they are _real_ people. I am sure that your girl friend would not like it if she realized that the 'nice plate of fried catfish' was actually a representation of.


----------



## momtwo4

SoWhat said:


> I thought we were talking about pornography, not actual infidelity.


When an individual has an emotional affair, he/she does not necessarily have s*x with the other individual. How does this, then, constitue "infidelity?" If you want to say that "infidelity" also includes emotional intimacy, then you would also need to add pornography to the category of infidelity. Both partners are having their most basic needs met elsewhere.


----------



## anonim

momtwo4 said:


> Great question! Let's say my husband is refusing to meet my "greatest need" for closeness and emotional intimacy. Is it okay if I go and look toward another man to fulfill those needs? I don't think my husband (or too many other husbands) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.


and if you're refusing to meet your husbands 'great need' is it ok for him to look towards another woman (as opposed to a video with a woman in it) to fulfill those needs? I don't think you (or too many other wives) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.



momtwo4 said:


> When an individual has an emotional affair, he/she does not necessarily have s*x with the other individual. How does this, then, constitue "infidelity?" If you want to say that "infidelity" also includes emotional intimacy, then you would also need to add pornography to the category of infidelity. Both partners are having their most basic needs met elsewhere.


next you're going to say that EA's arent cheating?




anony2 said:


> Watching porn isn't a solo activity though, you are using another person to "get off", just because she is on a video instead of in person, doesn't make her any less real.
> 
> The comparison to porn to catfish is not comparative at all to what we are talking about. The people that are on porn shows are not fish, they are _real_ people. I am sure that your girl friend would not like it if she realized that the 'nice plate of fried catfish' was actually a representation of.


solution; watch only animated porn. if the SO's have a problem with that....

....boom! ninjaed by, SoWhat


----------



## SoWhat

If you don't think watching porn is a solo activity because there are live actors in it, then watching a movie by myself (to meet my entertainment needs) isn't a solo activity.

What about those men/women who watch animated porn - is that solo or not? 

This current disagreement all stems from something I said earlier, that I was trying say without putting ANY prescriptive message in it:

"Those who want a male partner who doesn't ever look at porn whilst masturbating are looking for a very rare creature. If that is a deal breaker for you, you will have a hard time finding a man who is without that dealbreaker. "

That's a statement not of how things *should* or *should not* be.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> You're "involving" a 3rd party to the same extent the wife is 'involving' George Clooney or Brad Pitt when she watches a chick flick.
> 
> Which is to say... very little.
> 
> If my wife/GF was dissatisfied with our emotional connection and got her needs met by watching romantic comedies with those actors, I would
> (a) feel like I needed to meet her needs better, and
> (b) not feel particularly threatened, or hurt, etc.


No, women aren't involving a 3rd party by watching a chick flick because women cannot "get off" emotionally by watching a video of Brad Pit or George Clooney. 

If your GF or wife was dissatisfied with your emotional connection and got her needs met by going out and having an emotional affair and you were bothered by it, then you are just being insecure and she shouldn't enable you. 

You have the option to fulfill her emotional needs and if you aren't then she has every right to go out and get her needs met elsewhere, just because you have a lower emotional need than her, doesn't give you a right to refuse to meet her needs.

Just because you do not like cuddling, doesn't mean that she stops liking it.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> Watching porn isn't a solo activity though, you are using another person to "get off", just because she is on a video instead of in person, doesn't make her any less real.
> 
> The comparison to porn to catfish is not comparative at all to what we are talking about. The people that are on porn shows are not fish, they are _real_ people. I am sure that your girl friend would not like it if she realized that the 'nice plate of fried catfish' was actually a representation of.


Fish are real people too!


----------



## ocotillo

anony2 said:


> Is the word 'prostitute' in today's society a positive or a negative word?
> 
> Has any father said: "My daughter is a prostitute, and I am darn proud of her accomplishments"...??
> 
> Is it okay for women to be prostitutes while they are married?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> If it is okay for a married man to watch the 'writings of prostitutes' (aka pornography), then there should be no problem with his wife being a prostitute.


I think you may have missed the point of the etymological narrative. It was to show that pornography is first and foremost, the written word. A sexually explicit story is not, "Sort of like porn" or "Kinda like porn," it is pornography is the purest sense of the word because that's what the word was coined to describe.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> and if you're refusing to meet your husbands 'great need' is it ok for him to look towards another woman (as opposed to a video with a woman in it) to fulfill those needs? I don't think you (or too many other wives) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.


What do you think that you are doing by watching porn? Isn't that men getting their needs met because their wives aren't meeting them?

It should either go both ways or neither. If you aren't secure enough to have your wife get her emotional needs elsewhere, then you shouldn't ask her to put her insecurities aside while you get yours met elsewhere. 

Why should your wife enable you?


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> No, women aren't involving a 3rd party by watching a chick flick because women cannot "get off" emotionally by watching a video of Brad Pit or George Clooney.


????

Romance novels, rom-coms, etc., exist because they meet some need/desire in those that buy them.

You don't have to call this meeting of desire a "getting off," but you'd be avoiding it only because the evidence afterwards isn't as obvious. 

If you're saying there simply is no parallel for the meeting of sexual desires in the emotional realm, cool. But then you can't really go on making comparisons about getting ones emotional needs met by third parties, as you've effectively already declared the realms incommensurable.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

SoWhat said:


> If you don't think watching porn is a solo activity because there are live actors in it, then watching a movie by myself (to meet my entertainment needs) isn't a solo activity.
> 
> What about those men/women who watch animated porn - is that solo or not?
> 
> This current disagreement all stems from something I said earlier, that I was trying say without putting ANY prescriptive message in it:
> 
> "Those who want a male partner who doesn't ever look at porn whilst masturbating are looking for a very rare creature. If that is a deal breaker for you, you will have a hard time finding a man who is without that dealbreaker. "
> 
> That's a statement not of how things *should* or *should not* be.


I have had a couple of serious relationships(one marriage). And after explaining why I dislike porn they have all stopped using it.

That said I do meet their sexual needs, as I think it's very important. 

I think everyone has looked at porn at one time or another, however we are not helpless creatures who have to watch porn or anything else. Particularly after looking at porn with a critical eye, and realising the dangers of it.


----------



## momtwo4

anonim said:


> and if you're refusing to meet your husbands 'great need' is it ok for him to look towards another woman (as opposed to a video with a woman in it) to fulfill those needs? I don't think you (or too many other wives) would be happy or comfortable with this. Not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> next you're going to say that EA's arent cheating?


That is not what I'm saying at all. My point is that EAs are no more cheating than a porn addiction. Both are cheating. "Greatest needs" should be fulfilled by the partner. When that doesn't happen, cheating often happens (porn addictions and EAs). Neither is healthy for a relationship. An EA is no worse than a porn addiction.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> You have the option to fulfill her emotional needs and if you aren't then she has every right to go out and get her needs met elsewhere, just because you have a lower emotional need than her, doesn't give you a right to refuse to meet her needs.




You have the option to fulfill your SO's sexual needs and if you aren't then s/he has every right to go out and get his/her needs met elsewhere, just because you have a lower sexual need than him/her, doesn't give you a right to refuse to meet his/her needs.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> next you're going to say that EA's arent cheating?


and next you are going to say that porn isn't, right? So what makes an EA without sex cheating by a man watching another woman's vag while masturbating, not cheating?

Men have used the excuse for years that since they do not have _sex_ with the porn queen, then they aren't cheating, so the same thing CAN be said about an EA as long as no sex is involved. 

Why are men allowed to get their needs met by going outside of their marriage and women aren't? :scratchhead:


----------



## *LittleDeer*

SoWhat said:


> ????
> 
> Romance novels, rom-coms, etc., exist because they meet some need/desire in those that buy them.
> 
> You don't have to call this meeting of desire a "getting off," but you'd be avoiding it only because the evidence afterwards isn't as obvious.
> 
> If you're saying there simply is no parallel for the meeting of sexual desires in the emotional realm, cool. But then you can't really go on making comparisons about getting ones emotional needs met by third parties, as you've effectively already declared the realms incommensurable.


They can also be harmful, I'd agree with that. However they are not real people but characters. Not comparabe in the least. The people in porn are really having sex. 

Moreover if men really felt they had a negative effect on their relationship, they should say so, however it is rarely mentioned, excpet in defence of porn. Why is that? :scratchhead:

Most women do not want to be prostitutes only to have a billionaire sweep them off their feet (pretty woman) nor have their husband send them love letters from war and sit waiting patiently at home (pick any romantic war story), only to have him killed in spectacular fashion. 

Most women want thoughtful loving men, who do romantic things that they are quite easily capable of. 

Often porn causes men to have a multitude of sexual issues, not find their wives attractive any more, demand porn sex etc.

How are these issues even comparable?

Again justifying it must be easier then the alternative of investing your heart and mind into your own relationship. That is sad.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> What do you think that you are doing by watching porn? Isn't that men getting their needs met because their wives aren't meeting them?
> 
> *It should either go both ways or neither.* If you aren't secure enough to have your wife get her emotional needs elsewhere, then you shouldn't ask her to put her insecurities aside while you get yours met elsewhere.
> 
> Why should your wife enable you?


if a marriage partner is gonna use a real life touchable, see-able, smellable, taste-able, audible, ****cable, human being to meet their needs that their partner doesnt meet, then the partner should get that real life touchable, see-able, smellable, taste-able, audible, ****cable, human being to meet their needs too. thats equal.


----------



## anonim

momtwo4 said:


> I don't understand that at all. How are you not involving a "3rd party" when you look at porn? Are you looking at a real woman or a fake one? I think that is part of the problem. Men forget that they are looking at someone, not something.


 because you cant stick your penis in a video. 


unless you got one of those old-ass vhs things.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> You have the option to fulfill your SO's sexual needs and if you aren't then s/he has every right to go out and get his/her needs met elsewhere, just because you have a lower sexual need than him/her, doesn't give you a right to refuse to meet his/her needs.



And you have the option of fulfilling your SO's emotional needs and if you aren't then she has every right to go out and get them met elsewhere, just because you have a lower emotional need than her, doesn't give you a right to refuse to meet her needs, even if it makes you insecure. She shouldn't have to put up with your insecurity and be an enabler. 

It is either both ways or neither way. 

Needs are needs and a woman has an equal right to get her needs met than a man does and it is about time women started standing up and shouting that from the rooftops of this patriarchal society that has deemed women crazy or insane because we are emotional when we are emotionally driven. 

There is no shame in that.


----------



## anonim

momtwo4 said:


> That is not what I'm saying at all. My point is that EAs are no more cheating than a porn addiction. Both are cheating. "Greatest needs" should be fulfilled by the partner. When that doesn't happen, cheating often happens (porn addictions and EAs). Neither is healthy for a relationship. An EA is no worse than a porn addiction.


except ive yet to see an porn _habit_ go PA


----------



## SoWhat

*LittleDeer* said:


> They can also be harmful, I'd agree with that. However they are not real people but characters. Not comparabe in the least. The people in porn are really having sex.


if they were just acting like they were having sex, would it be different?

And how are they any less 'real people' than porn actors? 
The porn star guy is not really a pizza delivery man. The woman isn't really a bored, horny housewife.

Again, you can say "they have sex though!" 
to which I say
"George Clooney's character sweeps a girl off her feet though, in a situation which women find very romantic and imagine themselves in!"

They are both designed to meet (different) desires. 
90+% of women in the West watch these sorts of movies, or read the books, etc.
90+% of men in the West watch porn of some type.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> if a marriage partner is gonna use a real life touchable, see-able, smellable, taste-able, audible, ****cable, human being to meet their needs that their partner doesnt meet, then the partner should get that real life touchable, see-able, smellable, taste-able, audible, ****cable, human being to meet their needs too. thats equal.


No, it isn't and let me explain why. 

A woman cannot get her emotional needs met by watching a video. If we could 'jill off' and our emotional needs were met, we would, but we weren't wired that way and we did not choose our wiring. 

Just because YOU can get your sexual needs met that way, doesn't mean a woman's emotional needs can be. 

So again, it is either both or neither. Your choice.


----------



## momtwo4

anonim said:


> if a marriage partner is gonna use a real life touchable, see-able, smellable, taste-able, audible, ****cable, human being to meet their needs that their partner doesnt meet, then the partner should get that real life touchable, see-able, smellable, taste-able, audible, ****cable, human being to meet their needs too. thats equal.


But the woman on that computer screen is a real person who has all of those attributes that you describe. You CAN have an EA via computer as well. Just because you can't touch, smell, or taste a person doesn't necessarily make a relationship less real. 

Would it then be okay for a wife to have an EA via computer with a hot, sweet, sensitive, and intelligent man as long as she doesn't smell him or taste him???


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> except ive yet to see an porn _habit_ go PA


No, but there have been women on this very thread that their husbands chose to watch porn instead of meet their sexual needs with their and I bet those same women went without their emotional needs being met also. Why is that?


----------



## SoWhat

anony2: Then why are we talking like emotional needs are a valid, opposite-gender analogue for sexual needs?
According to your description, they are simply incommensurable.


----------



## anony2

momtwo4 said:


> *But the woman on that computer screen is a real person* who has all of those attributes that you describe. You CAN have an EA via computer as well. Just because you can't touch, smell, or taste a person doesn't necessarily make a relationship less real.
> 
> Would it then be okay for a wife to have an EA via computer with a hot, sweet, sensitive, and intelligent man as long as she doesn't smell him or taste him???


There we go, excellent answer momtwo4. 

An EA should be just fine if it is via computer...just like the porn is.


----------



## momtwo4

What if I wanted to spend more time with my sweet internet guy rather than confiding and chatting with my husband? Maybe it wouldn't be this way at first, but what if I got "addicted" to him? Would I want to even open the door to that? Why would I do something if I knew it could possible damage my relationship with my husband? Because I have needs? Well, I guess my needs are more important than my spouses then.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> anony2: Then why are we talking like emotional needs are a valid, opposite-gender analogue for sexual needs?
> According to your description, they are simply incommensurable.


No, they aren't incommensurable, but they cannot be met the same way. 

Kinda like an apple and an orange are both fruit, but yet, they are different.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

SoWhat said:


> if they were just acting like they were having sex, would it be different?
> 
> And how are they any less 'real people' than porn actors?
> The porn star guy is not really a pizza delivery man. The woman isn't really a bored, horny housewife.
> 
> Again, you can say "they have sex though!"
> to which I say
> "George Clooney's character sweeps a girl off her feet though, in a situation which women find very romantic and imagine themselves in!"
> 
> They are both designed to meet (different) desires.
> 90+% of women in the West watch these sorts of movies, or read the books, etc.
> 90+% of men in the West watch porn of some type.


I don't know who you are talking to, but I've never ever had my emotional needs fulfilled by watching a movie or reading a book. When I have been in relationships with men who did not meet my needs I did not replace them with movies. I tried to get them to meet my needs, if they weren't met I moved on. 

Moreover women are also sexual beings, I LOVE sex, but I don't turn to porn instead of the real deal, men are also emotional beings and often need the emotional closeness that comes from an intimate emotional relationship. These cannot be met through watching movies. 

However many men replace sex with porn or get sexual fullfillment out of porn.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> And you have the option of fulfilling your SO's emotional needs and if you aren't then she has every right to go out and get them met elsewhere, just because you have a lower emotional need than her, doesn't give you a right to refuse to meet her needs, even if it makes you insecure. She shouldn't have to put up with your insecurity and be an enabler.
> 
> It is either both ways or neither way.
> 
> Needs are needs and a woman has an equal right to get her needs met than a man does and it is about time women started standing up and shouting that from the rooftops of this patriarchal society that has deemed women crazy or insane because we are emotional when we are emotionally driven.
> 
> There is no shame in that.


saying that someone doesn't have the right to refuse to meet someone else needs is tantamount to saying its ok to force yourself on them. 

and on the flip side you are entitled to get your needs met elsewhere, whether you are getting them fulfilled or not. your life your choice. a persons insecurity is their own issue to deal with, if your SO gives you help with it great, but nurturing it =/= helping with it.

men and women have equal right to get their needs met. end of. disagreement of this statement means you hold bias one way or the other, which means this issue is a power struggle for them.

Also this society is overwhelmingly matriarchial in certain areas.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> ????
> 
> Romance novels, rom-coms, etc., exist because they meet some need/desire in those that buy them.
> 
> You don't have to call this meeting of desire a "getting off," but you'd be avoiding it only because the evidence afterwards isn't as obvious.
> 
> If you're saying there simply is no parallel for the meeting of sexual desires in the emotional realm, cool. But then you can't really go on making comparisons about getting ones emotional needs met by third parties, as you've effectively already declared the realms incommensurable.


So then why don't you get your rocks off by watching the Indy 500 or a good football game? 

Yes, I can go on making comparisons about getting ones emotional needs met by third parties, as I have already done.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> No, it isn't and let me explain why.
> 
> A woman cannot get her emotional needs met by watching a video. If we could 'jill off' and our emotional needs were met, we would, but we weren't wired that way and we did not choose our wiring.
> 
> Just because YOU can get your sexual needs met that way, doesn't mean a woman's emotional needs can be.
> 
> So again, it is either both or neither. Your choice.


you mean that men should have the bare minimum they can to meet their needs and women should have more than the bare minimum? no that's inherently inequal. but you said that it should go both ways or neither? :scratchhead:

maybe you should definitively explain what a womans 'emotional needs' are?


----------



## momtwo4

anonim said:


> saying that someone doesn't have the right to refuse to meet someone else needs is tantamount to saying its ok to force yourself on them.
> 
> and on the flip side you are entitled to get your needs met elsewhere, whether you are getting them fulfilled or not. your life your choice. a persons insecurity is their own issue to deal with, if your SO gives you help with it great, but nurturing it =/= helping with it.
> 
> men and women have equal right to get their needs met. end of. disagreement of this statement means you hold bias one way or the other, which means this issue is a power struggle for them.
> 
> Also this society is overwhelmingly matriarchial in certain areas.


True. All individuals have the choice to make their needs paramount. But it might mean the unravelling of a relationship. Divorce often happens when one partner decides to disregard the other partner in order to meet his/her needs. In a healthy relationship, both partners try to meet the other partner's needs.


----------



## Maricha75

No matter what, it seems...those for porn are not gonna budge. Neither are those of us who are against it...for whatever reason. The bottom line is that if it bothers your SO, you have two choices...stop, or move on. And that is whether male or female. And it doesn't only apply to porn. If something is a dealbreaker for you, then you shouldn't have to live with it. If you don't feel you should have to give something up because your SO doesn't like it, again...your choice. It is up to each individual whether they can live with something or not.


----------



## anonim

momtwo4 said:


> That is not what I'm saying at all. My point is that EAs are no more cheating than a porn addiction. Both are cheating. "Greatest needs" should be fulfilled by the partner. When that doesn't happen, cheating often happens (porn addictions and EAs). Neither is healthy for a relationship. An EA is no worse than a porn addiction.


EA is worse than a porn _habit_ because you cant create a reciprocated connection with a video, regardless of the content.



anony2 said:


> and next you are going to say that porn isn't, right? *depends on the terms and conditions of the relationship*So what makes an EA without sex cheating by a man watching another woman's vag while masturbating, not cheating? *because an EA inevitably evolves in to a PA, porn habits do not evolve in quality, per se*
> 
> Men have used the excuse for years that since they do not have _sex_ with the porn queen,*and women have been using the "porn addict' label to shame their men, for years* then they aren't cheating, so the same thing CAN be said about an EA as long as no sex is involved.*possibly, this begs more discussion*
> 
> Why are men allowed to get their needs met by going outside of their marriage and women aren't? *i dont think its ok to do so. apparently you do and dont like it*:scratchhead:





anony2 said:


> No, but there have been women on this very thread that their husbands chose to watch porn instead of meet their sexual needs with their and I bet those same women went without their emotional needs being met also. Why is that?


i cant answer that w/o seeing the threads im afraid. do you have links?

but i'll bet my next paycheck there are/were other problems in the marriage


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> saying that someone doesn't have the right to refuse to meet someone else needs is tantamount to saying its ok to force yourself on them.



Yep, same with sex. Women have a right to refuse men sexually, it isn't possible for them to be at the husband's beck and call every time that he wants sex. She is not a sex slave, she is a real person, just like that women that is on the porn video. 



anonim said:


> and on the flip side you are entitled to get your needs met elsewhere, whether you are getting them fulfilled or not. your life your choice. a persons insecurity is their own issue to deal with, if your SO gives you help with it great, but nurturing it =/= helping with it.


So if you are insecure about your wife getting her needs met elsewhere, then that is your problem, not hers. 

If you caused some of that insecurity by doing things that make the marriage insecure, then yes, nurturing does help with it. If you are feeling insecure, would you want a reassuring hug or a kick in the teeth from your wife?




anonim said:


> men and women have equal right to get their needs met. end of.


Yes, I know, and that is what I have been saying this whole thread, but unfortunately, this is a patriarchal society that has made a women needs shameful and undesirable. Thus why men say things like "don't be so emotional" to women. 



anonim said:


> disagreement of this statement means you hold bias one way or the other, which means this issue is a power struggle for them.
> 
> Also this society is overwhelmingly matriarchial in certain areas.


Yes, it is a power struggle, because for some reason, men are trying to tell women that they have the right to get their needs met outside the marriage while the women do not, and men consider watching porn on the computer fine, while if a woman had an emotional affair on the computer (with no sex involved) is infidelity. That is double standards, thus why it is a power struggle. I dislike double standards very much. 



No, it this society is not matriarchal. If it was, then women would be making more money then men. As it is, men still are still making more money on the whole and women's needs being met wouldn't be considered less important than men's, as we have seen repeatedly on this thread. 

Not only that, look at the ideology of sex in general. If a woman has many sexual partners, she is a *****/****, but if a man does, he is a ???

Again, double standards.


----------



## anonim

momtwo4 said:


> True. All individuals have the choice to make their needs paramount. But it might mean the unravelling of a relationship. Divorce often happens when one partner decides to disregard the other partner in order to meet his/her needs. In a healthy relationship, both partners try to meet the other partner's needs.


I can agree with this. in a healthy relationship, i think the partners would end it before it became unhealthy/selfish sinces its not good to drag out something you cant agree on.


----------



## momtwo4

Maricha75 said:


> No matter what, it seems...those for porn are not gonna budge. Neither are those of us who are against it...for whatever reason. The bottom line is that if it bothers your SO, you have two choices...stop, or move on. And that is whether male or female. And it doesn't only apply to porn. If something is a dealbreaker for you, then you shouldn't have to live with it. If you don't feel you should have to give something up because your SO doesn't like it, again...your choice. It is up to each individual whether they can live with something or not.


That is for sure. I know this is one debate I'm not gonna win. But at least it is clearer than ever in my mind. I believe it is detrimental to relationships. And I can see that I'm not alone on this. I've made a new commitment to my husband to meet his sexual needs, and he has abstained from porn for quite a while now. Please don't argue with me that he hasn't. I know he has. Our marriage is stronger now than it was when he was doing porn in the basement. He's much more addicted to ME, and that is how it should be. I love my husband, and I'm not sharing him with naked women on the internet. I guess that puts us in the 1%.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> EA is worse than a porn _habit_ because you cant create a reciprocated connection with a video, regardless of the content.


In your opinion, but in my opinion, they are the same. 




anonim said:


> i cant answer that w/o seeing the threads im afraid. do you have links?
> 
> but i'll bet my next paycheck there are/were other problems in the marriage


Scroll back and read it for yourself. 



Originally Posted by anony2 
and next you are going to say that porn isn't, right? depends on the terms and conditions of the relationship

So if your wife says that she feels that looking at other women's vag is cheating, who gets to decide, you or your wife?



So what makes an EA without sex cheating by a man watching another woman's vag while masturbating, not cheating? 

_because an EA inevitably evolves in to a PA, porn habits do not evolve in quality, per se_

*And porn habits could evolve into affairs or not being sexually happy with the wife as I have shown you in the links I sent you earlier. 
*



_and women have been using the "porn addict' label to shame their men, for years then they aren't cheating, so the same thing CAN be said about an EA as long as no sex is involved.possibly, this begs more discussion_

And men have been calling their wives *****es and ****s to shame them and acting as if any emotion that they have is manipulation. 

As long as both things happen on the computer, and no real sex is involved, they are equal. 



Why are men allowed to get their needs met by going outside of their marriage and women aren't? i dont think its ok to do so. apparently you do and dont like it

If you do not think it is okay to do so, then why are you defending porn when that is outside of the marriage?


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> *you mean that men should have the bare minimum they can to meet their needs and women should have more than the bare minimum*? no that's inherently inequal. but you said that it should go both ways or neither? :scratchhead:
> 
> maybe you should definitively explain what a womans 'emotional needs' are?


No, that isn't what I said at all, I said EQUAL or none. 

Each woman's emotional needs are different, just like each man's sexual needs are different. I can only expand on my emotional needs, which is love, caring, tenderness, and spending time with me.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> Yep, same with sex. Women have a right to refuse men sexually,*and for men to refuse women also?* it isn't possible for them to be at the husband's beck and call every time that he wants sex. She is not a sex slave, she is a real person, just like that women that is on the porn video.*for some men that might be why they look at porn.*
> 
> So if you are insecure about your wife getting her needs met elsewhere, then that is your problem, not hers. *and vice versa of course *
> 
> If you caused some of that insecurity by doing things that make the marriage insecure, then yes, nurturing does help with it. If you are feeling insecure, would you want a reassuring hug or a kick in the teeth from your wife?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, and that is what I have been saying this whole thread, but unfortunately, this is a patriarchal society that has made a women needs shameful and undesirable.*yes its true, but expectations and conditions are also set on men. and dont think for a second that men all agree with these, or that all men agree with this. the same society that you call patriarchal also tells your husband not to show to express fear or weakness or confusion to you or anyone else. and that he has to make enough money to support you, him, 2.4 kids and a dog. and to always keeps his boss happy even though his boss might tell him how useless he is at his job and makes personal comments about him, maybe about you too (though your hubby wont ever tell you this, because he doesnt want you to be hurt) * Thus why men say things like "don't be so emotional" to women.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is a power struggle, because for some reason, men are trying to tell women that they have the right to get their needs met outside the marriage while the women do not, and men consider watching porn on the computer fine, while if a woman had an emotional affair on the computer (with no sex involved) is infidelity. That is double standards, thus why it is a power struggle. I dislike double standards very much.
> *
> women can watch porn on the computer too.
> a woman watching porn is = to a man watching porn.
> a man having an EA is = to a woman having an EA.
> 
> why? because women AND men have both sexual AND emotional needs.*
> 
> No, it this society is not matriarchal.* I said in spots, not the entirety, which it is. When a court can order a man to pay child support for children that are DNA test proven to be not his, (because his WW had an affair and got pregnant and didnt inform the husband.) tell me thats not in bias of women. and thats not just judge mandated, but state mandated.* If it was, then women would be making more money then men. As it is, men still are still making more money on the whole and women's needs being met wouldn't be considered less important than men's, as we have seen repeatedly on this thread.
> 
> Not only that, look at the ideology of sex in general. If a woman has many sexual partners, she is a *****/****, but if a man does, he is a ???
> 
> Again, double standards.


----------



## anony2

*Yep, which do you think happens more, a man refusing to meet the emotional needs of women or women refusing to meet the sexual needs of men?*



it isn't possible for them to be at the husband's beck and call every time that he wants sex. She is not a sex slave, she is a real person, just like that women that is on the porn video.



anonim said:


> for some men that might be why they look at porn.


*Which is why it is harmful to the wife if they do not feel the same way about it. Again, who gets to decide what is cheating? Do you get to decide that watching porn isn't cheating AND emotional affairs are? Why do you get to decide both ways? * And did you ever stop and think that those expectations on a wife to be her husbands sex *slave*? 










anonim said:


> yes its true, but expectations and conditions are also set on men. and dont think for a second that men all agree with these, or that all men agree with this. the same society that you call patriarchal also tells your husband not to show to express fear or weakness or confusion to you or anyone else. and that he has to make enough money to support you, him, 2.4 kids and a dog. and to always keeps his boss happy even though his boss might tell him how useless he is at his job and makes personal comments about him, maybe about you too (though your hubby wont ever tell you this, because he doesnt want you to be hurt) Thus why men say things like "don't be so emotional" to women.






anonim said:


> women can watch porn on the computer too.


Watching porn does not meet a woman's emotional needs and women are emotionally wired. 



anonim said:


> a woman watching porn is = to a man watching porn.


No, because a man is sexually wired and a woman isn't. 



anonim said:


> a man having an EA is = to a woman having an EA.


No, because an EA is based on EMOTIONS while porn is based on SEX. 





anonim said:


> why? because women AND men have both sexual AND emotional needs.


Yes they do obviously, but men are hardwired for sex and women are hardwired emotionally. This is why men do not watch chick flicks to masturbate to and women do not get their emotional needs by watching porn. 



anonim said:


> I said in spots, not the entirety, which it is. When a court can order a man to pay child support for children that are DNA test proven to be not his, (because his WW had an affair and got pregnant and didnt inform the husband.) tell me thats not in bias of women.



Did women make that law or did men?


----------



## Mephisto

Phenix70 said:


> Oxytocin & serotonin are more likely to be found in long term relationships, whereas in a new relationship, norepinephrine is more apt to be the main neurochemical, along with phenylethylamine.
> Your initial attraction to someone causes your body to produce more phenylethylamine, which then releases more norepinephrine & dopamine.
> All of which doesn't happen when watching porn.
> Excess porn use dysregulates dopamine in men, which in turn affects oxytocin.
> A disruption in these pathways is associated with behaviorial disorders.
> 
> See, you're not the only one who knows quite a bit about the chemicals secreted by humans when it comes to sex.
> Now, if you want to continue the "who knows more" contest, we can, but it's pointless & quite frankly a waste of this thread.
> 
> Regarding women & their sexuality, there are women who don't need lots of foreplay to have sex & don't need to be in the "right state of mind", they can be just as raring to go as a man.
> We're not all vapid, emotional creatures who have to have a man get us worked up in order to have sex.
> I'm an equal to my husband when it comes to sex, he doesn't have to get me all worked up in order to have the privilege of having sex with me. (Said with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
> Nor do I just lie there & do it as my duty.
> 
> Oh & I love chocolate, but never in a million years would I ever take it over sex because there is no comparison between the two.
> I don't have fantasies about that molten cake I had.


Oh dear, and here you have failed once again to realize that the initial question was WHY men enjoy porn. 

You have issues with porn, great, we all get that. They are your issues, however, your hijacking the topic so you can sit on the soapbox and sprout off your anti-porn agenda is quite tiresome.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Mephisto said:


> Oh dear, and here you have failed once again to realize that the initial question was WHY men enjoy porn.
> 
> You have issues with porn, great, we all get that. They are your issues, however, your hijacking the topic so you can sit on the soapbox and sprout off your anti-porn agenda is quite tiresome.


Plenty of threads change course with some perfectly valid points. What is your issue that you would try and make some one feel bad who actually has something useful to contribute?

The whole issue is porn, where people defend its use others will rightly point out the very harmful detrimental effects. Sounds like a fair adult conversation to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mephisto

It is a fair and valid point, but when you are discussing a particular topic and they change the topic to suit an argument they have, it becomes a hijack. I had not checked back in on the 6-7 extra pages of dialogue prior to posting that.

She got what she wanted and that was a soapbox to stand on and beat her chest about how bad porn is in a relationship, the original context of my discussion was about WHY men find porn endearing.

But when you say the effects are detrimental, is that just in your case, or is that in every case, how about the HD husband being rejected time and again by a LD spouse. Is he not allowed to use porn to bridge the gap instead of going out and having a series of PA's, sounds kinda like a proactive use if you ask me. How about the repressed couple with no idea about sex and what it can be, they watch porn together and discover hidden treasures and delights that can tittilate each other with.... another example of good porn use? 

Perhaps those who scream loudest and longest have the issues, not the people who can appreciate all things in moderation.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Mephisto said:


> It is a fair and valid point, but when you are discussing a particular topic and they change the topic to suit an argument they have, it becomes a hijack. I had not checked back in on the 6-7 extra pages of dialogue prior to posting that.
> 
> She got what she wanted and that was a soapbox to stand on and beat her chest about how bad porn is in a relationship, the original context of my discussion was about WHY men find porn endearing.
> 
> But when you say the effects are detrimental, is that just in your case, or is that in every case, how about the HD husband being rejected time and again by a LD spouse. Is he not allowed to use porn to bridge the gap instead of going out and having a series of PA's, sounds kinda like a proactive use if you ask me. How about the repressed couple with no idea about sex and what it can be, they watch porn together and discover hidden treasures and delights that can tittilate each other with.... another example of good porn use?
> 
> Perhaps those who scream loudest and longest have the issues, not the people who can appreciate all things in moderation.


I would agree with you if the subject had changed to why eating onions were bad for your relationship, but what would a thread be like if no one could ever oppose anything or state their view in relation to what was being said.

The thread is about porn. If men talk about why they watch it, why it's good etc, then some men and women are going to adress that. And fair enough.

My boyfriend doesn't watch porn, though I know he did when he was a lot younger. I am not worried about this currently in my relationship. Though I do wonder how viewing porn has changed both of our views on sex, and the negative on going hidden effects this may have on us.

I am a high drive female, and I've felt rejection before in a relationship, a lotof it was emotional rejection too. I however tried to get him to understand where I was coming from, what I needed and so forth, and eventually I ended it. I know hat my needs are and I refuse to spend time in a relationship where my needs are not met most of the time. I did not have an affair or turn to porn.

Most people start with not much education, porn is the very worst place you can get it from IMO. There is some good literature out there that can help you learn more about your own sexuality. I wouldn't want that influenced by unrealistic junk like porn, that exploits women. Moreover any man who is learning sex moves from porn is learning the wrong thing. If you want to be bad in bed then I think porn is the way to go. It is the junk food of sex, quick easy enticing but very bad for you, and you should avoid it. 

If you aren't getting sex from your spouse I suggest manning up, trying to reconnect, insisting on counselling and laying it al out for them.

If they refuse to get help then make a choice. Mine wouldn't be porn. I deserve a rich fullfilling sex life and a deeply intimate relationship that's awesome.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

After our long and tearful discussion last night and some incredibly bonding, earth moving sex, I can proudly say I will become part of the 1%!


----------



## trey69

To the OP, glad to see you finally came back and responded to your thread, after several pages of people going around and around on the issue. Bottom line, it all comes down to how you feel and what works best in your situation. If people like porn fine, if they don't, that is their right as well. Good Luck!


----------



## Maricha75

trey69 said:


> To the OP, glad to see you finally came back and responded to your thread, after several pages of people going around and around on the issue. Bottom line, it all comes down to how you feel and what works best in your situation. If people like porn fine, if they don't, that is their right as well. Good Luck!


Trey, she has been here. Was a few pages back, but these replies blew up fast lol. And, she had another thread to tend to. 

HR, glad things are looking up for you!


----------



## trey69

Maricha75 said:


> Trey, she has been here. Was a few pages back, but these replies blew up fast lol. And, she had another thread to tend to.
> 
> HR, glad things are looking up for you!


Yes, I know. Thats what I was referring too, the last few pages seemed to have been all about why porn is wonderful and why it isn't etc. Thats why its good she finally chimed back in. Its about HER situation and how SHE feels on it anyway.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

Thank you all for your opinions & perspectives. Work was insane & I couldn't post, but that was a good thing.

The bottom line is Maricha75 & Tacoma & everyone was right--I needed to open my damn mouth & communicate with my husband. I know he doesn't view porn, eat onions, or do ANYTHING to purposefully hurt me. That's comforting, but doesn't take away my hurt. 

By having a calm, but brutally honest talk, we learned a lot more about each other & our relationship. Boundaries are critical & knowing what they are - BOTH of us - can not be overstated. It wasn't about him needing porn or bending to my will. It was about listening to each other & getting the facts correct on both sides.

We are partners. In all things. We forgot that. Again, thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

Phenix70 said:


> My apologies as well, I should use "Internet Porn", instead of just the generic "porn."
> I need to make sure I'm as succinct as possible to ensure no misunderstandings.
> One of my favorite quotes is "*But I know it when I see it*, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that"- Justice Stewart, describing his threshold test for pornography.
> I like erotic literature, my husband & I have read it to one another & we also write it to each other.
> The stories we write each other are far more stimulating than anything I've read elsewhere.
> 
> How frustrating your inlaws must be, to see the human form in art as pornographic.
> That is unless your youngest child's books feature the photos of Robert Mapplethorpe.
> I can only imagine what your family gatherings must be like.
> I wonder what things will be like come graduation time....


I think that's a balanced viewpoint. 

I recently read the book, _Wired for Intimacy: How Pornography Hijacks the Male Brain_ but was disappointed that the author at no point established a working definition of pornography. Paradoxically, he accused consumers of non-pornographic erotica of "Hiding behind definitions." (!)

It sounds noble, but historically, that attitude (i.e. Anything whatsoever about the female body which titillates a male viewer is wrong) has been used to enslave and repress women and it was only when it started to erode that women as a group gained any real status in Western society.

So when someone writes a book or article on the harmful effects of pornography in marriage, I'm willing to read it with an open mind. But when it becomes apparent that they consider women in swimsuits to be pornographic, it's hard to take them seriously, because that attitude is a one-way ticket that leads here:


----------



## Phenix70

Mephisto said:


> It is a fair and valid point, but when you are discussing a particular topic and they change the topic to suit an argument they have, it becomes a hijack. I had not checked back in on the 6-7 extra pages of dialogue prior to posting that.
> 
> She got what she wanted and that was a soapbox to stand on and beat her chest about how bad porn is in a relationship, the original context of my discussion was about WHY men find porn endearing.
> 
> But when you say the effects are detrimental, is that just in your case, or is that in every case, how about the HD husband being rejected time and again by a LD spouse. Is he not allowed to use porn to bridge the gap instead of going out and having a series of PA's, sounds kinda like a proactive use if you ask me. How about the repressed couple with no idea about sex and what it can be, they watch porn together and discover hidden treasures and delights that can tittilate each other with.... another example of good porn use?
> 
> *Perhaps those who scream loudest and longest have the issues, *not the people who can appreciate all things in moderation.


Oh please, sanctimonious much are we? 
If you really did read the last 6-7 pages, you will see that this thread has derailed into all kinds of directions, including our society being partriarchal.
I don't need to defend my position to you, but do know this, I can no doubt see why you're here on TAM.


----------



## anony2

Phenix70 said:


> Oh please, sanctimonious much are we?
> If you really did read the last 6-7 pages, you will see that this thread has derailed into all kinds of directions, including our society being partriarchal.
> I don't need to defend my position to you, but do know this, I can no doubt see why you're here on TAM.


I agree and because this is a patriarchal society, if women speak up about how it feels for them for their SO to watch porn, some men attempt to shut them down by acting sanctimonious by claiming women are "insecure". Some men think that they get to decide what is considered cheating, not only for themselves, but also for their wives. 

I would like to add that if men think that women get their emotional needs met by watching chick flicks, then men can get their sexual needs met by masturbation, they do not really need to look at internet porn to masturbate, if so, then how did the men masturbate before internet porn? :scratchhead:


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> Some men think that they get to decide what is considered cheating, not only for themselves, but also for their wives.



Wait....

if a wife considers porn cheating, she's deciding that for her husband, right?


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> I would like to add that if men think that women get their emotional needs met by watching chick flicks, then men can get their sexual needs met by masturbation, they do not really need to look at internet porn to masturbate, if so, then how did the men masturbate before internet porn? :scratchhead:


History of masturbation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Possibly through pictures on everything from cave walls to pottery? 

Through their imagination?
Through erotic literature (as described expertly earlier in this thread).

Etc.

Internt porn is another form of sexual imagery. Before it, hardcore porn existed, though it wasn't as easily accesible. 
Men had Playboy, of course, before the internet. 
Many of us actually prefer Playboy-style nude images to hardcore stuff, even when looking online. 

If I didn't have any visual stuff, I'd probably read something sexy. And I'm sure there would be brave souls fighting the appropriateness of erotic literature as a masturbatory aid in such a world. 
And if we used only our imagination, there would be crusaders fighting sexual thoughts involving co-workers or classmates or actresses or whatever.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> Wait....
> 
> if a wife considers porn cheating, she's deciding that for her husband, right?


No, they should talk it out and decide what is best for their relationship, because each relationship is different. She doesn't get to decide what is best for both, just like he doesn't.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> History of masturbation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Possibly through pictures on everything from cave walls to pottery?
> 
> Through their imagination?
> Through erotic literature (as described expertly earlier in this thread).
> 
> Etc.
> 
> Internt porn is another form of sexual imagery. Before it, hardcore porn existed, though it wasn't as easily accesible.
> Men had Playboy, of course, before the internet.
> Many of us actually prefer Playboy-style nude images to hardcore stuff, even when looking online.
> 
> If I didn't have any visual stuff, I'd probably read something sexy. And I'm sure there would be brave souls fighting the appropriateness of erotic literature as a masturbatory aid in such a world.
> And if we used only our imagination, there would be crusaders fighting sexual thoughts involving co-workers or classmates or actresses or whatever.


Is your girlfriend a drawing on a cave wall or is she a real woman?

Why can't you think about your girlfriend when you masturbate? Did you choose to be in a long term relationship with her? 

Would you care if your girlfriend made porn and distributed it on the internet? How about if you got married and she made porn and distributed it online?

Why or why not?


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> Is your girlfriend a drawing on a cave wall or is she a real woman?
> 
> Why can't you think about your girlfriend when you masturbate? Did you choose to be in a long term relationship with her?
> 
> Would you care if your girlfriend made porn and distributed it on the internet? How about if you got married and she made porn and distributed it online?
> 
> Why or why not?



I can and do think about her when I masturbate. 
Just not solely her. 
And I don't think this is a choice, really. At least my personal phenomenology is that things that turn me on "pop in my head" as I do it - sometimes its that sexy Brazillian girl from class, sometimes it's a girl I saw on the street, sometimes it's a sexy memory of an ex from 10 years ago, etc. 

Maybe me, and every man I've ever met, are wrong about this and we have total mastery of our sexual thoughts. But I'm not sure about that.

It seems you're hinting that fidelity is essentially about finding no one else sexually attractive. It can't really be just about seeing or imagining other people while masturbating to completion, because there's all these leftover problems - what if I look at a sexy girl on purpose, but don't touch myself? What if I *don't* get off but I do masturbate to sexual imagery? What if I 'accidentally' get turned on by an old memory of someone else while I'm masturbating, even if I try not to?


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> How about if you got married and she made porn and distributed it online?
> 
> Why or why not?



I wouldn't like it and wouldn't remain married to her. 
Just as - I am okay with prostitution being legalized, but would not marry a prostitute.
Just like, to a different degree - I'm okay with people having access to alcohol and drinking it (while not driving) as much as they like, but would not marry an alcoholic. 
Just like, to a different degree - I'm okay with people eating however much they want to eat, but wouldn't marry someone who ate to excess all the time. 

If a woman doesn't like men who masturbate (or have sexual imagery in their head, occasionally, that doesn't involve them), she should marry a man who doesn't. 
Just as I'd have a hard time finding a wife if 99% of women were alcoholics, prostitutes, or gluttons, she'll have a hard time finding a husband.


----------



## Maricha75

SoWhat said:


> History of masturbation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Possibly through pictures on everything from cave walls to pottery?
> 
> *Through their imagination?*
> Through erotic literature (as described expertly earlier in this thread).
> 
> Etc.
> 
> Internt porn is another form of sexual imagery. Before it, hardcore porn existed, though it wasn't as easily accesible.
> Men had Playboy, of course, before the internet.
> Many of us actually prefer Playboy-style nude images to hardcore stuff, even when looking online.
> 
> If I didn't have any visual stuff, I'd probably read something sexy. And I'm sure there would be brave souls fighting the appropriateness of erotic literature as a masturbatory aid in such a world.
> And if we used only our imagination, there would be crusaders fighting sexual thoughts involving co-workers or classmates or actresses or whatever.


Wait, that right there implies that the use of the actual image, via picture or video, is unnecessary. That men CAN simply imagine whatever (or whomever) they choose... they simply choose to take the easy way out and watch it on the screen. And no, I am not saying all men do this. Nor am I necessarily siding with the anti-porn stance in this. As stated before, I am glad that my husband and I agree on the subject. And I would never even TRY to tell anyone who (s)he should and should not fantasize about. I'm one who, if my husband was fantasizing about some redhead down the street, I don't want to hear about it. If he's fantasizing about Jessica Alba...again, don't tell me. 

Sorry, got distracted by that one sentence.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> I can and do think about her when I masturbate.
> Just not solely her.
> And I don't think this is a choice, really. At least my personal phenomenology is that things that turn me on "pop in my head" as I do it - sometimes its that sexy Brazillian girl from class, sometimes it's a girl I saw on the street, sometimes it's a sexy memory of an ex from 10 years ago, etc.
> 
> Maybe me, and every man I've ever met, are wrong about this and we have total mastery of our sexual thoughts. But I'm not sure about that.
> 
> It seems you're hinting that fidelity is essentially about finding no one else sexually attractive. It can't really be just about seeing or imagining other people while masturbating to completion, because there's all these leftover problems - what if I look at a sexy girl on purpose, but don't touch myself? What if I *don't* get off but I do masturbate? What if I 'accidentally' get turned on by an old memory of someone else while I'm masturbating, even if I try not to?


What if she "accidentally" gets emotionally attached to an old boyfriend when a fond memory passes through her mind, she "accidentally" runs into him when you aren't meeting her emotional needs? 

What if she "accidentally" talks to him about you and then they accidentally start having an emotional affair?

Are you going to accept that it was an "accident"?

If you do not control your thoughts, something else will.


----------



## SoWhat

Maricha:
Yes, I think most men CAN masturbate to their imaginations, though it's not as 'easy' in the sense that it's usually less clear and therefore harder to get very aroused from. 

In that regard, men take the "easy" way out. I guess this might be comparable (if we remove the implications of infidelity now rampant here....) to women - who could masturbate with their hands - using a vibrator. It's easier and more pleasurable but not the only way to skin that cat. 

If my GF is fantasizing about the hot soccer player guy she likes (some dude from Uruguay. I don't remember his name) as she masturbates or has sex with me, she's welcome to it - I'd rather she not tell me too, though! 

if she isn't attracted to me at all, I think it'd be evident in her behavior and our sexual frequency - and I think that's a different problem


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> I wouldn't like it and wouldn't remain married to her.
> Just as - I am okay with prostitution being legalized, but would not marry a prostitute.
> Just like, to a different degree - I'm okay with people having access to alcohol and drinking it (while not driving) as much as they like, but would not marry an alcoholic.
> Just like, to a different degree - I'm okay with people eating however much they want to eat, but wouldn't marry someone who ate to excess all the time.
> 
> If a woman doesn't like men who masturbate (or have sexual imagery in their head, occasionally, that doesn't involve them), she should marry a man who doesn't.
> Just as I'd have a hard time finding a wife if 99% of women were alcoholics, prostitutes, or gluttons, she'll have a hard time finding a husband.




If you didn't think that there was anything "wrong" with watching porn, or prostitution then you would let your wife be in porn and marry a prostitute. 

These are double standards that is propagated by a patriarchal society.


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> What if she "accidentally" gets emotionally attached to an old boyfriend when a fond memory passes through her mind, she "accidentally" runs into him when you aren't meeting her emotional needs?
> 
> What if she "accidentally" talks to him about you and then they accidentally start having an emotional affair?
> 
> Are you going to accept that it was an "accident"?
> 
> If you do not control your thoughts, something else will.


This is absurd. 

If she "accidently" fondly remembers a nice date she had with an ex, oh well. 

If she "accidently" runs into him and "accidently" has an EA, well, that no longer is a comparable situation to masturbation. In the former circumstance, it's in our heads and we're not involving someone else. 

You can twist that how you want, but I don't know who you're going to convince that what happens in one's sexual imagination is 
comparable to what happens in one's external, 3rd party-involving actions. 

I find your gender-specific line drawing kind of demeaning to more sexual women, tbh. Some women may, indeed, regard a man's EA as a proper analogue to a woman's EA, and a woman's masturbation as comparable to a man's masturbation, and a woman's PA as the closest thing we've got to a man's PA.

Suggesting that women are essentially and only emotional creatures, and men are essentially and only sexual creatures really avoids subtlety and empirical evidence.


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> If you didn't think that there was anything "wrong" with watching porn, or prostitution then you would let your wife be in porn and marry a prostitute.
> 
> These are double standards that is propagated by a patriarchal society.


Incorrect. 

Did I mention the morality of being a prostitute? 
I don't think of overeating as a specifically moral issue. But I would not marry a woman who overeats. 
I wouldn't avoid marrying an alcoholic primarily for moral reasons.

But you avoided the non-sexual examples I provided because they don't give you any advantage in making specious claims about my alleged patriarchal attitudes.


----------



## SoWhat

Maricha75 said:


> As stated before, I am glad that my husband and I agree on the subject.


I think that's a beautiful thing.


----------



## tacoma

> Originally Posted by momtwo4 ￼
> That is not what I'm saying at all. My point is that EAs are no more cheating than a porn addiction. Both are cheating. "Greatest needs" should be fulfilled by the partner. When that doesn't happen, cheating often happens (porn addictions and EAs). Neither is healthy for a relationship. An EA is no worse than a porn addiction.





> Yes, it is a power struggle, because for some reason, men are trying to tell women that they have the right to get their needs met outside the marriage while the women do not, and men consider watching porn on the computer fine, while if a woman had an emotional affair on the computer (with no sex involved) is infidelity. That is double standards, thus why it is a power struggle. I dislike double standards very much.


This is where these porn threads always go off the rails.

When a woman can equate an affair to watching porn there is something wrong with the woman.

This is just simply irrational, and utter, complete, mind numbing insecurity..

You have just proven my earlier point better than I ever could.
Thank you.

Threads over, I WIN!!

:smthumbup:


----------



## tacoma

My wife like to read Penthouse Forum.

Should I consider that cheating?

It`s gots pictures.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> This is where these porn threads always go off the rails.
> 
> When a woman can equate an affair to watching porn there is something wrong with the woman.
> 
> This is just simply irrational, and utter, complete, mind numbing insecurity..
> 
> You have just proven my earlier point better than I ever could.
> Thank you.
> 
> Threads over, I WIN!!
> 
> :smthumbup:


Trying to shut down the argument by declaring yourself the winner? LMAO :smthumbup:

What exactly did you win? :scratchhead:

Note how you start with the insults about women's emotions...

"Irrational, utter, mind numbing, insecurity" 


Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> My wife like to read Penthouse Forum.
> 
> Should I consider that cheating?
> 
> It`s gots pictures.


If you felt that it was, and she felt that it wasn't, who would be right?


----------



## GTdad

tacoma said:


> My wife like to read Penthouse Forum.
> 
> Should I consider that cheating?
> 
> It`s gots pictures.


Kick her azz to the kerb, dude.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Did I mention the morality of being a prostitute?
> I don't think of overeating as a specifically moral issue. But I would not marry a woman who overeats.
> I wouldn't avoid marrying an alcoholic primarily for moral reasons.
> 
> But you avoided the non-sexual examples I provided because they don't give you any advantage in making specious claims about my alleged patriarchal attitudes.


Then please explain why you would not stay married to a prostitute or a woman that did porn and posted it online. 

Your non sexual examples are simply incommensurable. Sorry.


----------



## tacoma

anony2 said:


> Trying to shut down the argument by declaring yourself the winner? LMAO :smthumbup:
> 
> What exactly did you win? :scratchhead:
> 
> Note how you start with the insults about women's emotions...
> 
> "Irrational, utter, mind numbing, insecurity"
> 
> 
> Thanks for proving my point.


The "I win" statement was a joke the little thumbs up dude was a clue to that.

I haven`t insulted "women" at all because I`m not gender biased.

I specifically stated "which" women were irrationally,utterly, mindnumbingly,completely insecure.

They are the ones who believe porn is the equivelent of an affair.
I stand by that statement and will go one further any man who thinks Penthouse forum or romance novels are the equivelent of an affair is also irrationally,utterly, mindnumbingly,completely insecure.

I WIN AGAIN!!!WOOHOOO!!
:smthumbup:<- (see the little thumbs up guy?)


----------



## tacoma

anony2 said:


> If you felt that it was, and she felt that it wasn't, who would be right?


She would be right and I would be Irrationally, mindnumbingly, utterly, and completely insecure.

:smthumbup:


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> Then please explain why you would not stay married to a prostitute or a woman that did porn and posted it online.
> 
> Your non sexual examples are simply incommensurable. Sorry.


A prostitute is having sex with someone else. I put a premium on fidelity (again, fidelity, to me, doesn't mean she's only attracted to me - as that's impossible. It means she only has sex with me.)

A porn star is sharing more than I'm comfortable sharing.

Hell, I don't think anything's wrong with an actor or actress being nude in a movie.
If my wife was in a movie, I wouldn't want her to go full monty - that's more than I feel comfortable with her sharing.

By rejecting the non-sexual examples, you're intentionally setting yourself up with an unassailable position - you're setting the very terms for what's allowed in the discussion, and you've set those terms at those things you think support your argument. 

That's pretty immature.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> The "I win" statement was a joke the little thumbs up dude was a clue to that.
> 
> I haven`t insulted "women" at all because I`m not gender biased.
> 
> I specifically stated "which" women were irrationally,utterly, mindnumbingly,completely insecure.
> 
> *They are the ones who believe porn is the equivelent of an affair.*
> 
> 
> I stand by that statement and will go one further any man who thinks Penthouse forum or romance novels are the equivelent of an affair is also irrationally,utterly, mindnumbingly,completely insecure.
> 
> I WIN AGAIN!!!WOOHOOO!!
> :smthumbup:<- (see the little thumbs up guy?)


Whoo hoo, a man says it, so IT IS SO...


Where is the huge head icon when a woman needs it?

I am glad that you get to decide for everyone (especially us irrationally,utterly, mindnumbingly,completely insecure women) instead of letting us decide for ourselves! 

Should we call you GOD or LORD?


----------



## tacoma

My wife is on display all over the net nude right now.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> A prostitute is having sex with someone else. I put a premium on fidelity (again, fidelity, to me, doesn't mean she's only attracted to me - as that's impossible. *It means she only has sex with me*.)


In her mind or in real life? If it means that she only has sex with you in real life, then you shouldn't have a problem with her having an emotional affair, because she wouldn't be having sex with him. 




SoWhat said:


> A porn star is sharing more than I'm comfortable sharing.


And what if you watching porn was more than what your SO was willing to share?




SoWhat said:


> Hell, I don't think anything's wrong with an actor or actress being nude in a movie.
> If my wife was in a movie, I wouldn't want her to go full monty - that's more than I feel comfortable with her sharing.
> 
> By rejecting the non-sexual examples, you're intentionally setting yourself up with an unassailable position - you're setting the very terms for what's allowed in the discussion, and you've set those terms at those things you think support your argument.
> 
> That's pretty immature.


Again with the insults?

What is up with you men, are you too insecure to talk about this without insults?


----------



## tacoma

anony2 said:


> Whoo hoo, a man says it, so IT IS SO...
> 
> 
> Where is the huge head icon when a woman needs it?
> 
> I am glad that you get to decide for everyone (especially us irrationally,utterly, mindnumbingly,completely insecure women) instead of letting us decide for ourselves!
> 
> Should we call you GOD or LORD?


Misandry much?

Edit:

"My Lord" will do thank you.


----------



## tacoma

anony2 said:


> What is up with you men, are you too insecure to talk about this without insults?


I guess so..


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> Again with the insults?
> 
> What is up with you men, are you too insecure to talk about this without insults?


Telling you that I think your argument style is immature isn't some sort of ad hominem. I'm saying - I expect most people to behave with some sort of intellectual honesty during discussion. If you're not interested in doing that - if you want to "win" by defining the terms - go ahead, but I regard it as something younger people do.


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> In her mind or in real life? If it means that she only has sex with you in real life, then you shouldn't have a problem with her having an emotional affair, because she wouldn't be having sex with him.



In real life.
I also expect emotional fidelity. 
If she finds another guy charming, or sweet, or sensitive, on an emotional level, cool. 

If she develops a two-sided emotional affair with another willing participant, that's emotional infidelity.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> Misandry much?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> "My Lord" will do thank you.


Misogyny much?

Remember, EVERYONE gets to have an opinion.


----------



## tacoma

anony2 said:


> Misogyny much?
> 
> Remember, EVERYONE gets to have an opinion.


Some of them are even based on objective evidence.

It`s a cool concept, you should Wiki it.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> Some of them are even based on objective evidence.
> 
> It`s a cool concept, you should Wiki it.


Objective evidence according to whom? Do you get to decide what is objective evidence?

I don't use wiki to do research, you do realize that it isn't a reliable source, don't you?


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> Telling you that I think your argument style is immature isn't some sort of ad hominem. I'm saying - I expect most people to behave with some sort of intellectual honesty during discussion. If you're not interested in doing that - if you want to "win" by defining the terms - go ahead, but I regard it as something younger people do.


I never said it was an ad hom, I said it was an insult and if you cannot discuss the topic without insulting people then please, do not bother responding to me. Thanks!


----------



## SoWhat

Wiki generally sources to reliable sources, however. 

Not getting involved in the "Girls rule and boys drool"/vice versa thing .


----------



## SoWhat

anony2 said:


> I never said it was an ad hom, I said it was an insult and if you cannot discuss the topic without insulting people then please, do not bother responding to me. Thanks!



I did not think of it as an insult. I apologize if you understood it as one. 

I was saying that the rejection of contrary arguments out-of-hand is something that strikes me as juvenile. It was a commentary on your non-addressing of what I thought were sound points that I made.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> Wiki generally sources to reliable sources, however.
> 
> Not getting involved in the "Girls rule and boys drool"/vice versa thing .


If it was generally a 'reliable' source, we would have been allowed to use it in college. We weren't.


----------



## tacoma

SoWhat said:


> Not getting involved in the "Girls rule and boys drool"/vice versa thing .


C`mon, it`s fun.

This one has buttons that are real easy to push too!


----------



## GTdad

anony2 said:


> If it was generally a 'reliable' source, we would have been allowed to use it in college. We weren't.


You didn't read what he wrote carefully enough. I'm beginning to see this as a theme.


----------



## tacoma

GTdad said:


> You didn't read what he wrote carefully enough. I'm beginning to see this as a theme.


It does seem to be her MO.

A lot of projection going on too.


----------



## SoWhat

GTdad said:


> You didn't read what he wrote carefully enough. I'm beginning to see this as a theme.


Yeah...

I just finished law school. My most-published professor advised all of us to look through the sources that wiki articles cite to for information and further citations.

Unrelatedly - GTdad? Like Georgia Tech?


----------



## GTdad

SoWhat said:


> Unrelatedly - GTdad? Like Georgia Tech?


Odd story. It's from "GorillaTheater", a long-time handle at another site or two.

Good luck with your career; some of us old hands would have advised dermatology.


----------



## SoWhat

haha. 
I got an undergrad in english and philosophy, a masters in philosophy. My brother always told me "Well, at least you can ask people WHY they want fries with that as you're taking their order!" 

Academia was too crowded, so I took the sell-out route. 

I'm inexplicably a Tech fan, which is why I asked.


----------



## anony2

SoWhat said:


> Yeah...
> 
> I just finished law school. My most-published professor advised all of us to look through the sources that wiki articles cite to for information and further citations.
> 
> Unrelatedly - GTdad? Like Georgia Tech?


Sure, you can use the sources that wiki sources, but why do that when you can actually do your own research?

Thus why we were not allowed to use wiki for sources, we were taught not to be lazy and rely on others for our information.


----------



## SunnyT

*After our long and tearful discussion last night and some incredibly bonding, earth moving sex, I can proudly say I will become part of the 1%!*

Honeysuckle.... did he delete the offensive photos?


----------



## tacoma

honeysuckle rose said:


> After our long and tearful discussion last night and some incredibly bonding, earth moving sex, I can proudly say I will become part of the 1%!


Or he`ll just hide it better because that`s what you`ve taught him to do.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> It does seem to be her MO.
> 
> A lot of projection going on too.



Oh, I see what you guys have going on here...intimidation. This isn't the first time I have read about this going on in the men's section. 

I am a grown up secure woman who doesn't have a daddy complex, so your insults don't work on me.  

Also, if you weren't so insecure, you would be in an open relationship where your wife could date whomever she wanted. 
Just ask the men who are in polyamorous relationships, they will tell you how insecure monogamous men are.


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> Or he`ll just hide it better because that`s what you`ve taught him to do.


Then that is deception and she would have every right to divorce him.


----------



## anony2

GTdad said:


> You didn't read what he wrote carefully enough. I'm beginning to see this as a theme.


Please, since you are so knowledgeable, go to the wiki website and post the link for the page about "objective evidence" for us. 

Thanks!

Oh wait, never mind...

"*The page "Objective evidence" does not exist*. You can ask for it to be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered.
For search help, please visit Help:Searching."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=objective+evidence&title=Special:Search

Next time, Tacoma should use better sources. )


----------



## Maricha75

Funny thing... I didn't get attacked, nor did I feel attacked, by Tacoma, nor SoWhat. My views are, inherently, opposite theirs. And yet, they seem to respect my view. Hmmm...I wonder why that is. Perhaps because I presented my point in a logical, not emotional manner, tho it is an emotional topic for me? Perhaps because I pointed out that, at the end of the day, it is the couple who chooses what is or is not a deal breaker.

Regarding the "you should have paid attention to what he wrote.... even *I* got it. SoWhat said


> Wiki *generally sources to* reliable sources, however.


The point is, wiki is a jumping off point, especially if you are at a roadblock. Use wiki to find all those elusive sources in one convenient site.... sort of like the old days at the *gasp* LIBRARY!!


----------



## anony2

Maricha75 said:


> Funny thing... I didn't get attacked, nor did I feel attacked, by Tacoma, nor SoWhat. My views are, inherently, opposite theirs. And yet, they seem to respect my view. Hmmm...I wonder why that is. Perhaps because I presented my point in a logical, not emotional manner, tho it is an emotional topic for me? Perhaps because I pointed out that, at the end of the day, it is the couple who chooses what is or is not a deal breaker.
> 
> Regarding the "you should have paid attention to what he wrote.... even *I* got it. SoWhat said
> The point is, wiki is a jumping off point, especially if you are at a roadblock. Use wiki to find all those elusive sources in one convenient site.... sort of like the old days at the *gasp* LIBRARY!!


Good for you! I am so glad that your arms reach all the way to your back like that. No one said anything about 'attacking' though, so your point is rather moot. If you look back, I said this here, about the couple deciding, not the man for the woman or vice versa where as Tacoma announced it as if his decision was for everyone and then attempted to insult those of us that did not agree with his announcement. 


Maybe you missed the point that 'objective evidence' not even being on wiki though, so using it as a source for a source was rather worthless and being snarky about it really made some people look rather silly. 

:lol:

objective evidence - Search results - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## *LittleDeer*

ocotillo said:


> I think that's a balanced viewpoint.
> 
> I recently read the book, _Wired for Intimacy: How Pornography Hijacks the Male Brain_ but was disappointed that the author at no point established a working definition of pornography. Paradoxically, he accused consumers of non-pornographic erotica of "Hiding behind definitions." (!)
> 
> It sounds noble, but historically, that attitude (i.e. Anything whatsoever about the female body which titillates a male viewer is wrong) has been used to enslave and repress women and it was only when it started to erode that women as a group gained any real status in Western society.
> 
> So when someone writes a book or article on the harmful effects of pornography in marriage, I'm willing to read it with an open mind. But when it becomes apparent that they consider women in swimsuits to be pornographic, it's hard to take them seriously, because that attitude is a one-way ticket that leads here:


I disagree completely. The problem is either way women are enslaved and viewed as sexual objects. The problem is porn gets more and more hard core every year that we don't even recognise porn images any more, we see them every day, they are mainstream. I think that's very sad.

Problem is women aren't viewed as people, they are judged on how f*&^abkle they look. 

Not talking to you Oco, but I do believe it's sad when posters have to belittle others or insult them to pretend they have somehow "won" . That shows they cannot debate the topic intelligently IMO.


----------



## tacoma

anony2 said:


> Maybe you missed the point that 'objective evidence' not even being on wiki though, so using it as a source for a source was rather worthless and being snarky about it really made some people look rather silly.


It would seem you miss the point of my and others replies on purpose because I did not state that Wiki was "objective evidence".
I stated that you could learn the definition of "objective evidence" on wiki.
It was a joke...

You would get farther if you actually rebutted what people are saying rather than twisting what they are saying into something you are able to rebut.

Granted I`ve been more than a bit flippant on this thread in the last few pages but that is only because I find it impossible to take you seriously after you equated porn with infidelity.


----------



## honeysuckle rose

SunnyT said:


> *After our long and tearful discussion last night and some incredibly bonding, earth moving sex, I can proudly say I will become part of the 1%!*
> 
> Honeysuckle.... did he delete the offensive photos?


Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose

tacoma said:


> Or he`ll just hide it better because that`s what you`ve taught him to do.


I believe that he really GOT where I was coming from. I went into the "I don't think I am your type, which is why you are saving porn pics that look like exes" & said you may love me, but something about women who look a certain way will always put me at a disadvantage IMO..." We talked about boundaries & he admitted some things he didn't want to about himself. It wasn't about guilt or shame. It was about how to empathize with each other. I think he really got it. For me it is about respect on both sides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> It would seem you miss the point of my and others replies on purpose because I did not state that Wiki was "objective evidence".
> *I stated that you could learn the definition of "objective evidence" on wiki.*
> It was a joke...
> 
> You would get farther if you actually rebutted what people are saying rather than twisting what they are saying into something you are able to rebut.
> 
> Granted I`ve been more than a bit flippant on this thread in the last few pages but that is only because I find it impossible to take you seriously after you equated porn with infidelity.


Seeing as how I never said that you said that wiki was objective evidence but have demonstrated that there is no wiki page entitled "OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE", you successfully built a straw-man and knocked it down. Good job!  

Yes, and all of my posts were jokes also, didn't you notice the smiley faces?

those >>>

You would get farther if you actually rebutted what I said instead of calling names and insulting people that you disagree with, being flippant isn't getting you anywhere and your jokes just aren't that funny unless you think putting other people down makes yourself bigger. 

Seeing as how I didn't equate porn with infidelity, and the only way that you COULD get that, is if you twisted my words or add to what I said...yeah, this is getting old.

:rofl:


----------



## anony2

tacoma said:


> This is where these porn threads always go off the rails.
> 
> When a woman can equate an affair to watching porn there is something wrong with the woman.
> 
> *This is just simply irrational, and utter, complete, mind numbing insecurity..*
> 
> You have just proven my earlier point better than I ever could.
> Thank you.
> 
> Threads over, I WIN!!
> 
> :smthumbup:





bubbly girl said:


> I've been reading tacoma's posts for quite some time, and I believe he is quite rational and gives us women good insight into how the male mind works. We women often think very differently from men so it is hard to wrap our heads around some things they do.
> 
> He will defend the use of porn, but he will also speak against a situation where the husband has replaced a real sex life with his wife with porn. Tacoma does point out when porn has truly become a problem in a marriage. So far, I think he has a pretty balanced view on the subject, and he certainly doesn't come off as anti-women.


Okay...Good thing that we have Tacoma to tell us when porn has TRULY become a problem in a marriage, because apparently, me being a woman and all, I wouldn't know...

:smthumbup:

:rofl:


----------



## SoWhat

I don't know why you're making your gender such a big deal. I understand that the previous sentence is probably evidence of unquestioned and ingrained patriarchal views, however. 

I don't know if honeysuckle's husband is really going to quit or is just going to hide it better. I hope, for her sake, that it's genuine.

I'm very happy that some couples are in agreement here. Maricha, for example, found a guy who is perfect for her in this respect. I have no desire to go preach *anything* to her husband. 

I'm leaving this thread. It makes me seem like I'm sort of porn super-enthusiast, I think. Good night to all.


----------



## Mrs. T

Racer said:


> Where I’d like to slightly disagree is the “objectification of women”... I believe that is more a feminist rhetoric tagline on pornography. The act of sexual interaction is objectified and edited down to the fantasy alone... It’s not like the male actors are there either because of their overwhelming acting ability and some well developed plot line so you empathize. Some famous ones, like John Holmes, isn’t even a attractive man at all; Just hung like a horse and willing. I don’t believe porn is making a specific statement about women as much as it is sex and fantasy. There’s also a ton of gay porn too you know as well as other fetish stuff.....
> 
> I find it all interesting... It is about that sexual gratification, and yes, it is almost primarily geared toward men (we are the primary market for porn, not women)... So, you’ll find the male sexual fantasy. This all results in more sales & hits; it always comes down to money. The people making this stuff aren’t stupid. They target ‘that fantasy’, not the hum drum duty sex guys get in the real world.


Men aren't the only ones getting hum drum sex, believe me....


----------



## Kobo

tacoma said:


> Because in many marriages it`s a non issue.
> 
> The porn I`ve saved is actually geared towards my wifes tastes.
> 
> 
> 
> So what happens if the husband doesn`t have any porn but you discover he`s masturbatng to the fantasy of different hot nude women in sexual situations?
> 
> Is the fantasy in his head ok?
> Why is the fantasy in his pixels not?



Because they believe we think about them anytime we masturbate. I know ladies, your man only masturbates to thoughts of you.


----------



## ocotillo

*LittleDeer* said:


> I disagree completely......
> 
> ...The problem is porn gets more and more hard core every year that we don't even recognise porn images any more, we see them every day, they are mainstream. I think that's very sad.



LittleDeer, 

I understand the arguments against pornography. My wife does not allow it in the house and I respect that boundary. --Always have.

However Phenix70 and I were not talking about pornography _per se._ We were talking about what does and what does not constitute pornography.

I object when people contend that anything about the female body that stirs a man's desire constitutes pornography. It's true that all of us inject a little subjective perception into the words we use, but those perceptions are subordinate to a set of objective definitions compiled into a book we call a "Dictionary."

The problem when the dictionary and legal definitions are no longer good enough is that it's simply not possible to cover up enough of the female body so that men will not look. Men fixate on even the non-sexual parts of the body. 

The more non-sexual parts of the body you cover up in the name of decency, the more you have to cover up. It becomes a social compulsion. Even in our own culture, it was not so very long ago when showing your ankles in public would earn you a day in the stocks for indecency. 

Do you believe the female body is inherently bad or evil? Do you consider a woman in a swimsuit to be indecent? Should she be punished? I hope not. 

Historically that attitude goes hand in hand with with the oppression of women and reduction of their liberty. This has happened in every single culture where that attitude has taken root including our own. The phenomenon is very, very well documented.




*LittleDeer* said:


> The problem is either way women are enslaved and viewed as sexual objects.


I don't disagree with that, but I do think that women are sometimes a little unfair with objectification theory.

Objectification theory posits that, "girls and women are typically acculturated to internalize an observer's perspective as a primary view of their physical selves." (Fredrickson, 1997)

This can in turn lead to an array of mental health risks that disproportionately affect women including unipolar depression and eating disorders.

Sexuality is certainly a component of objectification, but it is the component that we as a species have the least control over, since the body is in fact the basis for the distinction between the sexes.

Other components of objectification, like women's fashion, the popularity of television shows like America's Top Model and women's diet and health magazines that promote an unnatural, emaciated standard as 'normal' don't seem to arouse the level of indignation that they deserve.

I lost a female family member to anorexia. It's been many years, but maybe my own emotions are bleeding through here. I don't know.


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## missmolly

CandieGirl said:


> How many of you ladies sit there masturbating to a romance novel/film....???? Be honest now!!!
> 
> ....tweet....tweet....tweet....(crickets)


NEVER

Do I masturbate? yep, sometimes - sometimes a lot more in the past but I have ALWAYS thought about my husband (helps that I think him really sexy and love him heaps)


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## KJ5000

My wife and I use to watch porn together years ago but she HATES the new stuff. Too much over the top, fake screaming and ridiculous breast implants. She has no problem with me watching it because I'm not J'ing off when I do. My energy and everything else is saved for the Mrs! :smthumbup:


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## sinnister

Phenix70 said:


> Let me perfectly clear, not all women read romance novels, watch romantic movies or drool over movie stars.
> That's a cheap excuse to try to explain away why men watch porn.
> DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it.
> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
> A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
> Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
> There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


IMO this shows me that YOU dont get it. That's why I said mars/venus thing. 90% of time I look at it I'm not even pulling the pork. If you want to gain a better understanding of how men think you should probably be a little more open to honest answers.

Edit: And "objectifying" of women? C'mon. I was actually trying to be as honest and forthcoming as possible with my answer. But to you can't honestly believe watching this is objectifying women. If you new my life, how my single mom raised me, how I treat my younger sisters and 2 daughters, that word would never be typed from your fingers.


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## cloudwithleggs

arrrhhhh i am so fed up of this bull**** of women not being sexually driven drivel, i think women are very sexually driven, just as we are visual.

Men that believe that we aren't really need to go back to their cave.

I use porn but then i am not in a relationship really and i am more interested in my fav acts as in example doggy style, not the people in it. I still get a kick out of watching a guy jacking off for me, or written sex aswell.

now my estranged was very insecure as to me watching porn with black guys in it, i wonder why?

So i suppose guys that like watching porn here would be happy with their wives and girlfriends viewing porn of guys jacking off and written cyber sex, i mean what ever gets us off right, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, oh noooo i am sure you'd make rules that we can't do that, but oh yes we can  

where is the line, oh yeah it keeps moving. :smthumbup:


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## badbane

missmolly said:


> NEVER
> 
> Do I masturbate? yep, sometimes - sometimes a lot more in the past but I have ALWAYS thought about my husband (helps that I think him really sexy and love him heaps)


Your husband now or when he was in college?


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## badbane

okay if porn is soley for the objectification of women why are there guys that look like they have been in the gym 35 hours a week. Jeez porn is not about the objectification of women. Both sexes are objectified. I mean really really porn is about objectifying sex not the actors in it. I mean if all porn was is a naked woman getting her self off and that was the only type of porn yea. But there is all kinds of crazy stuff out there. i mean clown porn for goodness sakes is out there. The only person I could consider watching a woman with bozo the clown is a WOMAN that has a clown fetish. 
if a woman sits there and watchs a greek god of a gym rat jacking off they who is getting objectified. I hate people that just says porn objectifies women. Not all porn does some does but that's only if your into it. I can guarantee gay male porn doesn't objectify women does it? Porn is simply made because someone wants to watch it and it makes a lot of money. 
Women are different than men but we both have the urge to procreate seared into our DNA.


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## jerryseinfeld

Phenix70 said:


> Let me perfectly clear, not all women read romance novels, watch romantic movies or drool over movie stars.
> That's a cheap excuse to try to explain away why men watch porn.
> DO NOT even try to compare the two, it's lazy & shows that men just don't get it.
> Porn is for sexual gratification & the objectification of women, bottom line, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
> A woman thinking some guy is hot is NOT the same as a man jerking off to porn.
> Hell, even a guy thinking a woman is hot is not the same as jerking it to porn.
> There is no sugar coating what porn is for, it's 100% for seeking sexual gratification.


I think i understand what's going on here. Some people (mostly women) aren't happy if men gratify themselves the way men like to be gratified. Sexually? um. DUH?

Women like to be gratified, too. Sometimes sexually, sometimes otherwise. Men too. It's interesting that some people find it a useful exercise to belittle the things that turn men on and celebrate the the things that turn women on. Men and women are different.

It's about time someone told the truth: a woman's turn ons are no better than a man's. Men like things, women do. Since when is it a sin to be a man. Seriously. We are human beings with our own desires too!


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## wowzer

The problem is men use porn as an excuse for being lazy in a relationship. Now, I'm not talking about a single person. Sex is suppose to be an expression of love. Love is caring more about the other person than yourself. Porn = self-love. That's not love for another person. Men use porn as an excuse for feeling stressed, worried, bored, aging, any excuse will do. They just want a quick easy feel good for themselves only. What a bunch of lazy a**hol**. I say, men, get up off your lazy a** and go mow the yard, clean the kitchen, take care of kids, make love to your wife, cook dinner, whatever. Just quit thinking you're entitled to love only yourself. It's like you're being some selfish little spoiled brat. Grow up. Be a man.


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## Caribbean Man

jerryseinfeld said:


> I think i understand what's going on here. Some people (mostly women) aren't happy if men gratify themselves the way men like to be gratified. Sexually? um. DUH?
> 
> Women like to be gratified, too. Sometimes sexually, sometimes otherwise. Men too. *It's interesting that some people find it a useful exercise to belittle the things that turn men on and celebrate the the things that turn women on. Men and women are different.*
> 
> It's about time someone told the truth: a woman's turn ons are no better than a man's. Men like things, women do. Since when is it a sin to be a man. Seriously. We are human beings with our own desires too!


:iagree:

Couldn't have said it better myself!


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## dixieangel

Men that have wives that are willing to watch porn with you and wear sexy lingerie because they understand you are VISUAL...

Do you watch chick flicks with your wife ..because she is EMOTIONAL?

Someone used that earlier in this thread as an example how we are different...


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