# Men asking you about your sexual past...



## EleGirl

OPPS... I for got to put "NO" as a choice in the pole... so if you have never been asked any of that, click "Other" I guess.

One thing I have learned on TAM is that some men (a lot of the men on TAM) want to know this information about anyone they get serious about.

I have never had any man ask me about any of this. 

I've asked a lot of women I know in real life if they have been asked to give this type of inventory. They all say no.

So I'm wondering what experiences women have had with this.

I'm also curious about how you would reply... I don't mean for you to post your number or list of sexual acts, etc. 

I mean would you give them your number, or a list of acts, or a list of people?


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## TiggyBlue

Never had a guy ask me.


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## Satya

I have not had many men ask me directly, more like they have proceeded down a line of questioning that when answered, would indicate whether I had experience with short term, long term, or flings.


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## scatty

I have never been asked. We both have disclosed things about previous SOs, but not anything like positions, penis size, etc...


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## tacoma

I didn't vote in the poll because I'm male but I have never asked any of this of any woman I was ever involved with in any way.

For the most part it is all irrelevant to my needs/desires.


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## ConanHub

Mrs. Conan actually asked more questions than me. We both had things we needed to know. Mostly about our views on sex and relationships but also about some exes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan actually asked more questions than me. We both had things we needed to know. Mostly about our views on sex and relationships but also about some exes.


Did you both tell each other about absolutely everyone each of you had ever had sex with and the nature of that?


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Did you both tell each other about absolutely everyone each of you had ever had sex with and the nature of that?


Nope. That wasn't important to us. Major relationships, what we liked and didn't like and she had to make sure I hadn't had gay sex.

Not picking on anyone but I didn't realize how many folks,mostly male?, were seriously concerned with this issue until I came to TAM either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

I had a guy ask about my sexual past once. I just said, "Geez, Doc... maybe can all the questions, take your hands off my shoulders, and get back to the exam."


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## *LittleDeer*

Yes I've been asked, but I think it was because of insecurity on their part.


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## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> I had a guy ask about my sexual past once. I just said, "Geez, Doc... maybe can all the questions, take your hands off my shoulders, and get back to the exam."


You are always getting molested by doctors!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> You are always getting molested by doctors!


Look, it was legit. He told me he was a groinocologist.

That's groin and colon... right?!?


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## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> Look, it was legit. He told me he was a groinocologist.
> 
> That's groin and colon... right?!?


You sound like a sucker for a white coat and clipboard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> You sound like a sucker for a white coat and clipboard.


Not sure what you mean. This guy had on an orange jumpsuit.


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## ConanHub

Oh! Gawwd!!! &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

*As a man, I don't really think that it is any of my damned business to ask a woman that I'm seeing, any of those questions! Just as it is not any of her damned business to ask me the very same questions! 

It just speaks to nothing more than blatant insecurity on the "askers" part!

Now if I'm ending up getting married to her, then I might relent and tell her only the very basics, but absolutely nothing more than that! And at the very same time, I feel that there would be an implied duty on my part, that I would think I would owe her. 

But personally, I still would not want to know about her past sexual escapades, unless, of course, she had a more than pressing need to inform me of!

But isn't it rather interesting that whenever physical infidelity enters into a marriage, that the BS, as a rule, wants to know all of the gory details of what their WS did, such as the names of the people that they did it with, when they did it, where they did it,, why they did it, exactly what they did, how many times they did it, et. al. But I would think that it's largely nothing more than just a characteristic of human curiosity! *


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## Thundarr

It's ironic that communication and marriage are supposed to go hand and hand yet so many people want to say it's none of your business. Yes we're going to marry and be each other's rock for the rest of our lives but I dont' want to tell you anything about me. Okay my favorite color is blue so now you know me and don't ask any more questions. Please just drop the insecurity garbage people. Know your partners and trust your partners to know you.


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## EleGirl

I guess some people don't think that the number exact number of sex partners and every sexual position a person has had tells them much.

Perhaps there are other things that are better indicators of whether or not a person is someone they want to be with.


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## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> Oh! Gawwd!!! ����


Hmm... he actually said that a few times.


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## GusPolinski

Thundarr said:


> It's ironic that communication and marriage are supposed to go hand and hand yet so many people want to say it's none of your business. Yes we're going to marry and be each other's rock for the rest of our lives but I dont' want to tell you anything about me. Okay my favorite color is blue so now you know me and don't ask any more questions. Please just drop the insecurity garbage people. Know your partners and trust your partners to know you.


Yeah... I don't get it either.


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## EleGirl

It seems that more men are posting in this thread than women.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> It seems that more men are posting in this thread than women.


Sorry. Too impatient. I am actually very interested in this topic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Sorry. Too impatient. I am actually very interested in this topic.


I'm not complaining.. just made an observation 

I do hope that more women reply too.


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## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> It's ironic that communication and marriage are supposed to go hand and hand yet so many people want to say it's none of your business. Yes we're going to marry and be each other's rock for the rest of our lives but I dont' want to tell you anything about me. Okay my favorite color is blue so now you know me and don't ask any more questions. Please just drop the insecurity garbage people. Know your partners and trust your partners to know you.


Perhaps part of the issue is that in order to reveal information that a woman knows will often be used against her, she needs to know that she can trust the person.

We had a thread here a few weeks about by a guy who is in a new relationship. They had have sex once or twice. Then he asked her the number. And to him the number was important. So he had sex with her and then after that wants to judge her for having sex with guys.

Sure, if I was in a relationship with a guy who I have learned could be trusted I'd talk about things. But no one has ever asked me those questions.

I guess now... if I was dating I'd ask questions ahead of time to find out what the guys attitude was. Because if he cannot be trusted... there is no sharing that is going to happen.. and no sex.


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## Thor

EleGirl said:


> I guess some people don't think that the number exact number of sex partners and every sexual position a person has had tells them much.
> 
> Perhaps there are other things that are better indicators of whether or not a person is someone they want to be with.


I haven't been single since I was 18 years old when I started dating my now wife. That was 1979. Back then it was important to me in a serious relationship. I don't think I ever point blank asked her number, but I did ask about her previous boyfriends. I never asked specifically about which acts she did, or with whom. She volunteered quite a bit of those details.

It seemed important to know her character. Probably a good dose of insecurities in there, too, wanting to be sure I was someone special to her.

She did misrepresent her history, and did lie about some things when I did ask. One thing I did notice was she never asked me anything at all about my past.

These days I still believe a person's history is important as an indicator of their values and attitudes. Sexual history, relationship history, work history, family history, etc. I would not ask a 50 yr old woman her number if I were dating her, but I would want to know an accurate representation of her sexual history in order to judge our compatibility.


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## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> I guess some people don't think that the number exact number of sex partners and every sexual position a person has had tells them much.
> 
> Perhaps there are other things that are better indicators of whether or not a person is someone they want to be with.


The exact number isn't very important which seems to be coraborated by the responses thus far. I certainly never asked for an exact number however we did have conversations that were meaningful about what we thought and where we'd been and who we'd known and pasts comes up. If you trust each other then truthful conversation is the result. Anything short of this is less than it could have been.


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## soccermom2three

No, I've never been asked.


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## larry.gray

EleGirl said:


> I guess some people don't think that the number exact number of sex partners and every sexual position a person has had tells them much.


I'm in the "share more" crowd but I don't see the point of those specific two questions. The first is more of a range-ish question than an exact number. 

The second seems silly to me. If you're talking about a woman is over 25, count on the answer "every way possible for two heterosexual adults" to be the honest one. 



EleGirl said:


> Perhaps there are other things that are better indicators of whether or not a person is someone they want to be with.


:iagree:

Lets start with "how many children have you had" at the top for both genders. Or fidelity / infidelity. Is your view now for sex before exclusivity or after?


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## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> We had a thread here a few weeks about by a guy who is in a new relationship. They had have sex once or twice. Then he asked her the number. And to him the number was important. So he had sex with her and then after that wants to judge her for having sex with guys.


Well yes retroactive jealously is a problem actually. It seems to be worse when we're young and it's motivated by insecurity. Women remember the crazy jealous guy who fixated on history I suppose and then don't trust the next guy.


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## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> Well yes retroactive jealously is a problem actually. It seems to be worse when we're young and it's motivated by insecurity. Women remember the crazy jealous guy who fixated on history I suppose and then don't trust the next guy.


The thing is that I've seen guys here on TAM who are not young write some stuff that has led to me realizing that there are a lot of guys out there who are like that crazy jealous guy.


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## Satya

Elegirl, I couldn't see there was a poll because I'm on my phone. 

SO and I were very open about our pasts. If I remember correctly, I was the initial person that openly shared my past relationships & experiences, then we continued to share together. We'd ask questions of each other, not to be nosy but to learn more about the other - how we each learned about what we really wanted. 

My better half could inject his own thoughts here (I know you were asking for the ladies' input), but he was the first man I had ever known to have made the assumption (and be realistic about it) that I'd had a "past." He accepted and expected it. He didn't judge me, even for poor decisions I'd made years ago and to this day am hesitant to fully forgive myself for them. I know that my experiences help to define who I am today and in fact, he knew this better than I did myself. His open acceptance is one of the many qualities I adore about him. 

My ex H was a jealous type when we first dated, even though he was my first in pretty much everything. Looking back, I believe the jealousy created unnecessary strain and worry in me that if I didn't behave to expectations I was not a person of good moral fiber. I know better now, but at the time, I was younger and had less of a spine. I wanted to be a "good wife." But I'm also a human being, capable of errors in judgment yet try to be responsible enough to accept the consequences of my choices.

I would not know what I know without having dated men after my divorce & healing years. I would not know exactly the sort of companion I want, nor would I be able to function as the wholly loving and understanding companion I wish to be. If a man has ever judged me for being this way, that was his choice, but I think he was looking at my life through a particular, scrutinizing lens rather than the panoramic.


ETA: So and I never shared intimate details, just basics. We are respectful in our questioning. I would have no problem telling him absolutely anything in full confidence. He's probably heard almost too much by now!


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## NobodySpecial

I have been asked. The one thing about my husband that differentiated him from others is that he did not hold me to a different standard than himself.


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## Red Sonja

I voted "other". I have never been asked any questions of that type, not by my STBXH or any other man I have dated.

The posts on TAM where I see men (or women) wanting to know this type of information always make me think WTF :scratchhead:


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## SecondTime'Round

My exH asked me, when we were very young and just dating, before we married. I asked him too, or maybe he volunteered the info. The number was extremely low. 

It's much more of an issue now that we have reconciled. Not until after we got back together, moved back in together (bought a house) did he start to interrogate me about who I was with during our years apart. He's experiencing retrograde jelousy for sure. Prior to moving back in together he'd joke about it, but insist it didn't bother him. That was not the truth.


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## Anon Pink

I voted other.

I have never been asked. I have asked for lots of info from my H after we were married. I volunteered a little bit of mine but he never asked.

I can see how sexual histories are relevant to the relationship, but only in a minor way.

I wanted to know how many real GF's he had had. How long were their relationships and what were the circumstances of the break ups. I didn't need nor want to know how often they had sex, where they had sex, or how crazy the sex was. I was specifically interested in the relationship aspect and while sex was part of it it was the most important parts.

I did ask the circumstance of losing his virginity, but did not volunteer mine. 

In turn, he never asked me anything and waited for me to volunteer.


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## RoseAglow

I voted "other". I've never been asked. In my more serious relationships we've talked about ex's and dating history as a "Get to know you" kind of thing. Never numbers or details.


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## JCD

EleGirl said:


> I guess some people don't think that the number exact number of sex partners and every sexual position a person has had tells them much.
> 
> Perhaps there are other things that are better indicators of whether or not a person is someone they want to be with.


"Gee honey. I guess my fling with the Hell's Angels did in fact become relevant in our lives. Do you think you can wiggle over here and help me untie these ropes before they get back?"


I think in some cases (I work with a guy I slept with EVERY DAY alone, I used to date a domestic violence abuser, my sc*mbag drug dealer boyfriend kept hitting me up for loans), one's sexual past is VERY relevant.

Not all the time. Sometimes. But it is the most important information that either gender is most likely to hide.


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## NextTimeAround

at the age of 50 and after I told the guy that I was divorcee, he then asked me when I lost my virginity.

I honestly can't remember how I answered that.


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## RoseAglow

Thundarr said:


> It's ironic that communication and marriage are supposed to go hand and hand yet so many people want to say it's none of your business. Yes we're going to marry and be each other's rock for the rest of our lives but I dont' want to tell you anything about me. Okay my favorite color is blue so now you know me and don't ask any more questions. Please just drop the insecurity garbage people. Know your partners and trust your partners to know you.


No one said "I don't want to tell you anything about me." Seriously, where did that come from? 

The question is about men who seem to need to know very specific details about their potential partner's sex life. An exact number, exact past positions, etc. 

I got married later in life and had a few significant (dating for 3+ years) relationships. No man in any relationship or even just dating has ever asked me the kinds of things that apparently torment many men on TAM.

Like other posters I had no idea that this was a "thing." If anyone had asked me in the way that the TAMmers here seem to need to know, it would have been a signal for me to disengage at best (and I am sure I would have taken that information- the information that the guy was incredibly insecure- to really mess with them when I was younger.)

Don't get me wrong- anyone has the right to ask anything they want. But I will be watching and figuring out what kind of person you are by the questions you ask, just as you will be listening and figuring out what kind of person I am by my answers. It works both ways.


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## JCD

NextTimeAround said:


> at the age of 50 and after I told the guy that I was divorcee, he then asked me when I lost my virginity.
> 
> I honestly can't remember how I answered that.


Blink blink. Sometimes it takes a anecdote like that to see how incredibly nonsensical that line of questioning can get.

Do you frequently date the mentally challenged, or did it not show? (Teasing)

That's just a stupid and irrelevant question considering your past.


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## RoseAglow

JCD said:


> "Gee honey. I guess my fling with the Hell's Angels did in fact become relevant in our lives. Do you think you can wiggle over here and help me untie these ropes before they get back?"
> 
> 
> I think in some cases (I work with a guy I slept with EVERY DAY alone, I used to date a domestic violence abuser, my sc*mbag drug dealer boyfriend kept hitting me up for loans), one's sexual past is VERY relevant.
> 
> Not all the time. Sometimes. But it is the most important information that either gender is most likely to hide.


These questions are beyond "Hey honey, exactly how many men have you slept with". They aren't even about one's sexual past, they are about one's relationship past.

I have known about my BFs and husband's relationship past- it is part of their story. I don't need to know their exact sexual details though and I think that is what Ele is driving at with this thread.


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## norajane

I have not been asked for numbers, inventories, lists, or names. Nor have I asked for such things.

People I've dated in the past have wanted to know general things about relationships and why they ended, but no details like that. 

My SO and I are pretty open about this kind of stuff, but neither of us grill the other. It's mostly stuff we volunteer during conversations.


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## JCD

RoseAglow said:


> No one said "I don't want to tell you anything about me." Seriously, where did that come from?
> 
> The question is about men who seem to need to know very specific details about their potential partner's sex life. An exact number, exact past positions, etc.
> 
> I got married later in life and had a few significant (dating for 3+ years) relationships. No man in any relationship or even just dating has ever asked me the kinds of things that apparently torment many men on TAM.
> 
> Like other posters I had no idea that this was a "thing." If anyone had asked me in the way that the TAMmers here seem to need to know, it would have been a signal for me to disengage at best (and I am sure I would have taken that information- the information that the guy was incredibly insecure- to really mess with them when I was younger.)
> 
> Don't get me wrong- anyone has the right to ask anything they want. But I will be watching and figuring out what kind of person you are by the questions you ask, just as you will be listening and figuring out what kind of person I am by my answers. It works both ways.


You know, a lot of women just spout out crud like 'insecurity' or 'male ego' in rather dismissive terms to shut out any debate on the issue.

In some ways, a lot of this isn't coming from 'insecurity'; it comes from damage and injury. To wit: a man is married for X years. He tries some hanky, some panky, and for whatever reason (he approaches her wrong, she has her own sexual hang ups, whatever) she isn't into the panky and the hanky is only a special treat.

Then she goes into her version of a mid life crisis and screws around...in parking lots. In elevators. Suddenly, in her rediscovered illicit romance, hanky and panky are on the table again...and over the couch and in the kids bedroom.

These men feel cheated or duped. Lot of divorced guys on TAM. And in a very HUMAN non gender specific way, they aren't particularly self reflective.

And they won't be fooled again, in their eyes.

I've come around to the position that I don't need to know what you did before. I got a few deal breakers but I'm not probing for them, though I may outline them. And I think as a matter of common frigging decency, if we are going to frequently socially interact with someone you've had relations with more than once, you should give a heads up. No details, just 'I had a relationship with x for five months and he got too clingy so I broke it off' or whatever.


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## NextTimeAround

JCD said:


> Blink blink. Sometimes it takes a anecdote like that to see how incredibly nonsensical that line of questioning can get.
> 
> Do you frequently date the mentally challenged, or did it not show? (Teasing)
> 
> That's just a stupid and irrelevant question considering your past.


The guy in question was / is Muslim. He told me he was 38 and divorced as well. If you can think of any other characteristic this guy might have had that might have motivated such a question, ask away.


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## JCD

RoseAglow said:


> These questions are beyond "Hey honey, exactly how many men have you slept with". They aren't even about one's sexual past, they are about one's relationship past.
> 
> I have known about my BFs and husband's relationship past- it is part of their story. I don't need to know their exact sexual details though and I think that is what Ele is driving at with this thread.


This is a fair point, but sometimes they get tied up. When your 'relationship' history is two weeks per, that has it's own message.


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## RoseAglow

JDC none of what you just posted refers in any way to the question that was posted.

If the woman in your post was a virgin when she married and cheated with two men during her marriage, then her number is THREE.

So if some guy is fixated on "how many people have you slept with exactly" then that guy might end up thinking he's got a relatively chaste woman, who only slept with three people.

The real question is "Have you ever cheated?" 

A man who needs to know EXACTLY how many people one's slept with, and EXACTLY what positions, is either writing articles/researching or has some serious issues IMO.


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## JCD

NextTimeAround said:


> The guy in question was / is Muslim. He told me he was 38 and divorced as well. If you can think of any other characteristic this guy might have had that might have motivated such a question, ask away.


Nope. You pretty much answered it.


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## JCD

RoseAglow said:


> JDC none of what you just posted refers in any way to the question that was posted.
> 
> If the woman in your post was a virgin when she married and cheated with two men during her marriage, then her number is THREE.
> 
> So if some guy is fixated on "how many people have you slept with exactly" then that guy might end up thinking he's got a relatively chaste woman, who only slept with three people.
> 
> The real question is "Have you ever cheated?"
> 
> A man who needs to know EXACTLY how many people one's slept with, and EXACTLY what positions, is either writing articles/researching or has some serious issues IMO.




Actually, if you take a gander past the first selection and take a look at number two, i.e. positions and details, you will find any number of TAM posters who want to know they are not getting 'scant weight' in the sexual offerings from a woman's past.


Why do you think that question was asked by Elegirl? It has been a major 'thing' here, where some guys demand 'if you did X, Y and Z with Chad, you should be willing to do X, Y, and Z with me."


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## Maria Canosa Gargano

Satya said:


> Elegirl, I couldn't see there was a poll because I'm on my phone.
> 
> SO and I were very open about our pasts. If I remember correctly, I was the initial person that openly shared my past relationships & experiences, then we continued to share together. We'd ask questions of each other, not to be nosy but to learn more about the other - how we each learned about what we really wanted.
> 
> My better half could inject his own thoughts here (I know you were asking for the ladies' input), but he was the first man I had ever known to have made the assumption (and be realistic about it) that I'd had a "past." He accepted and expected it. He didn't judge me, even for poor decisions I'd made years ago and to this day am hesitant to fully forgive myself for them. I know that my experiences help to define who I am today and in fact, he knew this better than I did myself. His open acceptance is one of the many qualities I adore about him.
> 
> My ex H was a jealous type when we first dated, even though he was my first in pretty much everything. Looking back, I believe the jealousy created unnecessary strain and worry in me that if I didn't behave to expectations I was not a person of good moral fiber. I know better now, but at the time, I was younger and had less of a spine. I wanted to be a "good wife." But I'm also a human being, capable of errors in judgment yet try to be responsible enough to accept the consequences of my choices.
> 
> I would not know what I know without having dated men after my divorce & healing years. I would not know exactly the sort of companion I want, nor would I be able to function as the wholly loving and understanding companion I wish to be. If a man has ever judged me for being this way, that was his choice, but I think he was looking at my life through a particular, scrutinizing lens rather than the panoramic.
> 
> 
> ETA: So and I never shared intimate details, just basics. We are respectful in our questioning. I would have no problem telling him absolutely anything in full confidence. He's probably heard almost too much by now!


Thank you for sharing this. It was really beautiful to see your relationship with your husband as well as your honesty in your journey.

I think that is what is weird for me about numbers, the right way or whatever we want to call it. 

It takes away the journey we humans go through to understand ourselves. It's not, just do x and you are ok. Sometimes we need to figure it out.

After my abusive cheating relationship I had a relationship with a man. I experimented much more sexually with him and I learned so much more about myself and felt like I was in control of my sexuality again. Now in a committed relationship I feel that experience has allowed me to bring all of myself to it. Would it have been nice to have been a virgin and be at the place mentally, emotionally, and spiritually I am now? Maybe, but I just can't see myself having gotten here without having been through everything I have.


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## samyeagar

I had no desire to know about, nor did I ask my wife about her past. As we were getting to know each other, she was the one who brought that subject up by asking me my number. I was honestly a little hesitant to tell her. At that point in time, my number was two.

The overly detailed for mine, and frankly most people's taste, knowledge I have of her past is largely due to situations we have been in where disclosure was the best option. She and her friends have always been very open about their sexual exploits, and many things in all of their pasts are common knowledge among them. While we were getting to know each other, I imagine she assumed I was the same way, though quickly found out that I wasn't.

She very quickly learned to keep the details to herself, unfortunately, she was not able to keep circumstances and other people from revealing things. Once things came up, and the proverbial cat was out of the bag, I did ask the relevant follow up questions to better understand things.


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## RoseAglow

JCD said:


> Actually, if you take a gander past the first selection and take a look at number two, i.e. positions and details, you will find any number of TAM posters who want to know they are not getting 'scant weight' in the sexual offerings from a woman's past.
> 
> 
> Why do you think that question was asked by Elegirl? It has been a major 'thing' here, where some guys demand 'if you did X, Y and Z with Chad, you should be willing to do X, Y, and Z with me."


Well, if a guy feels like he is getting ripped off sexually then IMO he has a relationship problem. His problem isn't really "she did XX with Chad but won't do it with me!" it is "She won't do XX with me." (If she was doing XX with the not-Chad guy then he wouldn't be complaining.)

Adding in Chad is a red herring and frankly- outside of infidelity where it is reaction to a traumatic event- pretty sad when a guy is in constant competition in his mind. It's just a way to make the guy feel entitled, "What a b1tch! She'd do it for him for not for me!" instead of focusing on the current relationship and trying to problem solve.

I think it would be incredibly creepy if a guy wanted to know the name of what positions with what guy etc. In my life I've never had such a thing happen. I don't know any friends who have complained that they had a similar conversation with their SOs/husbands. 

I've seen the movie Chasing Amy where the "hero" wanted his girlfriend to do the same thing for him that she'd done with others in her past, and the guy lost the girl,which is what i think would happen in most cases. 

If I try to imagine the reverse for a woman, I guess it would involve trying to get the same things from a man that he gave his former girlfriends/wives: same size ring or bigger, better honeymoon, etc. What a waste of time, competing with the past instead of enjoying and building upon the present.


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## tacoma

It's not always about getting the same thing from a woman that she's given past lovers.

It's often just insecurity about past lovers which is the point elegirl is getting at here I think.

It's also not just a male thing at all.

Before my wife and I were married she went through some photo albums I had, saw numerous ex's, compared herself unfavorably to them and got pretty insecure thinking I wouldn't be satisfied with her.

It's silly as hell because she's obviously beautiful but it happened anyway.

I think it's the same thing going on with the men we're talking about here.


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## JCD

RoseAglow said:


> If I try to imagine the reverse for a woman, I guess it would involve trying to get the same things from a man that he gave his former girlfriends/wives: same size ring or bigger, better honeymoon, etc. What a waste of time, competing with the past instead of enjoying and building upon the present.


And yet it happens


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## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> It's not always about getting the same thing from a woman that she's given past lovers.
> 
> *It's often just insecurity about past lovers* which is the point elegirl is getting at here I think.


Yes, I agree. I'd go further and say it can be obsession about past partners.



> It's also not just a male thing at all.
> 
> Before my wife and I were married she went through some photo albums I had, saw numerous ex's, compared herself unfavorably to them and got pretty insecure thinking I wouldn't be satisfied with her.
> 
> It's silly as hell because she's obviously beautiful but it happened anyway.


When we were dating, I saw a picture of my husband from when he was in his first marriage. He was wearing a happy goofy smile and his wedding ring. I got irrationally jealous of his ex-wife in that pic. She had him in a way that I didn't- at least not yet.

So I understand that jealousy happens, and have experienced it myself.

I was friends with my husband for 15+ years before we actually got together romantically. His first significant girlfriend was my HS BFF, and I lived with him and his second partner for a year during college. I knew two of his three SOs very well. All three of his significant relationships were with women who were 5'5 or less, all three were either blonde or red-headed, and none of them were more than say 120 lbs soaking wet. I am 5'8, brunette, and weight considerably more than 120 lbs. 

In our early days I was very nervous about my physical mis-match with every other woman he's ever been in love with, and he was worried I'd fall for a doctor and go running off into the sunset. I was away for work most M-Thurs and working with doctors AND he was cheated on in his first marriage. 

So yes, insecure feelings happen in relationships.



> I think it's the same thing going on with the men we're talking about here.


I was trying to come up with a reverse-gender item, but even so, I think there is a difference. 

I don't judge my husband for being married before. My husband realized that he was more suspicious/anxious because of his recent past and would say, "You are not doing anything or giving me any reason to worry. I am worried because of what I went through. It would make me more comfortable if you would [not hang out in the hotel bar after work/call each night/let me know your schedule] etc."

My husband and I were able to work together and build a stronger relationship. I think (hope!) this is the more common outcome. I was jealous of his ex-wife for a few minutes, but I didn't take it out on him, blame him, decide that he was "bad" or "used" etc. 

The problem with the "numbers" guys- in addition to IMO missing the actual problem- is that they very rarely can own their issue. They judge the woman. It is her fault; he is the victim here because he isn't getting what he "should" or "deserves". The woman is "loose", "used", etc.

Their actions/agony over the numbers actually harms their relationships. There is nothing that can be done to change the "numbers" so it is very hard to build and improve one's relationship unless/until the guy finds some way to let go of or otherwise resolve the issue.

You can tell when someone starts to turn the tide when they begin to realize that the obsession really is their own problem. It is an issue with THEM and not the wife/GF. 

I can't speak for Ele but I suspect she was also curious to see how often this "numbers/names/positions" obsession really happens. I know I am curious about it. I haven't seen it in real life, but then again it is probably self-selection. My group in general were a more adventurous lot so we weren't around many conservative people.


----------



## Thor

JCD said:


> Actually, if you take a gander past the first selection and take a look at number two, i.e. positions and details, you will find any number of TAM posters who want to know they are not getting 'scant weight' in the sexual offerings from a woman's past.
> 
> 
> Why do you think that question was asked by Elegirl? It has been a major 'thing' here, where some guys demand 'if you did X, Y and Z with Chad, you should be willing to do X, Y, and Z with me."


I think a lot of that here on TAM is because the guy is in a bad marriage when he gets here. Then he finds out he isn't getting anywhere near what his wife's previous lovers got. Or, his wife was plain vanilla with him but then she had wild monkey sex with affair partners.


----------



## GusPolinski

EleGirl said:


> The thing is that I've seen guys here on TAM who are not young write some stuff that has led to me realizing that there are a lot of guys out there who are like that crazy jealous guy.





RoseAglow said:


> No man in any relationship or even just dating has ever asked me the kinds of things that apparently torment many men on TAM.


Respectfully, where (i.e. in which threads) have you seen this?


----------



## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> The problem with the "numbers" guys- in addition to IMO missing the actual problem- is that they very rarely can own their issue. They judge the woman. It is her fault; he is the victim here because he isn't getting what he "should" or "deserves". The woman is "loose", "used", etc.


Ahh yes I guess this part (the numbers) would be a gender issue meaning it's mostly males with this problem.

I think this problem is just another that stems from the ****ed up patriarchal society we live in as a leftover from the days when a womans virginity was a gaurantee a male would be able to pass his own genes on.

I'm hoping this something we'll get past as a society like we seem to be getting past many of the other inequities we face concerning womans issues, albeit very slowly.


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## staarz21

I've never been asked by a guy and I never ask them. Don't need to know, don't want to know.


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## GusPolinski

Thor said:


> I think a lot of that here on TAM is because the guy is in a bad marriage when he gets here. Then he finds out he isn't getting anywhere near what his wife's previous lovers got. Or, his wife was plain vanilla with him but then she had wild monkey sex with affair partners.


Just so that everyone is clear, there is absolutely NO comparison between a lover/potential lover asking questions about former lovers and a husband asking his WW/FWW questions about her affair partner(s), affair sex, etc.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano

GusPolinski said:


> Just so that everyone is clear, there is absolutely NO comparison between a lover/potential lover asking questions about former lovers and a husband asking his WW/FWW questions about her affair partner(s), affair sex, etc.


I feel like that confusion has caused a lot of crossed wires in this conversation.


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## GusPolinski

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I feel like that confusion has caused a lot of crossed wires in this conversation.


I honestly do hope that's the case.


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## Anonymous07

I asked my husband his number first and then he asked about mine. 

I put a very high value on sex and didn't want to be with a man who had given it to every woman he ever dated. In the past, when I found out the guy slept around, I ended things. If the guy pushed me for sex, I ended things. I wasn't willing to be pushed for something I wasn't ready to give. Our values didn't match, so it wouldn't work out. I have only ever had sex with my husband and I'm happy about that. My husband's number is 2, one from a long term relationship and one from a one night stand that he is not proud of. I don't know details and don't want to know. I let the number go since he is a very respectful man, among many other qualities, and never pushed me for sex. 

Supposedly, I am "insecure" according to this thread.


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## JCD

GusPolinski said:


> Just so that everyone is clear, there is absolutely NO comparison between a lover/potential lover asking questions about former lovers and a husband asking his WW/FWW questions about her affair partner(s), affair sex, etc.


Excuse me and allow me to clarify.

We had a thead or two earlier in our history in which a man discovered that his wife whom he had married for a decade (trying to dredge up memories) had been a REALLY WILD party girl back in the day. It came out during a wedding or something.

She had hid this aspect of her past from him, or at least the gritty details (you know...generic 'I did things I wasn't proud of but I'm a different person now...' stuff) and suddenly, he was wanting to know details of her former wild party life...and it came out that she had frequently and regularly um...gave no toll access down the Hersey Highway.

And yet hubby had, for the entirety of his marriage, found a 'road closed' sign on that particular on ramp.

The man felt hurt by this double standard because all his wife could do was say 'Chad' (name made up) was a real louse and she really regretted being with him, that her current husband was much better.

HIS contention was 'then why am I getting less of you than Chad ever did? I might have liked to meet your 'wild child' a couple of times in the bedroom, but she never visited ME!'

It was a big mess and a huge argument on the board, as you can imagine and a number of gentlemen who were post divorce and looking at new relationships bemoaned the idea that the women were 'giving the cream' to the bad boys and giving the skim milk to their 'beloved husbands'. (Their side)

The women cited personal autonomy "Why should I be forced to do things that I don't like doing and that I only did because I was insecure and inexperienced?"

I think the women have the better argument...but they sure as hell didn't show a lot of empathy in that exchange to any of the feelings of the husbands. "Tough noogies" was the general consensus "you should have known us then...but we wouldn't have dated you anyway because we were shallow back then and weren't ready for a real relationship anyway."

Needless to say, this went over really well...


----------



## Thundarr

RoseAglow said:


> No one said "I don't want to tell you anything about me." Seriously, where did that come from?
> 
> The question is about men who seem to need to know very specific details about their potential partner's sex life. An exact number, exact past positions, etc.
> 
> I got married later in life and had a few significant (dating for 3+ years) relationships. No man in any relationship or even just dating has ever asked me the kinds of things that apparently torment many men on TAM.
> 
> Like other posters I had no idea that this was a "thing." If anyone had asked me in the way that the TAMmers here seem to need to know, it would have been a signal for me to disengage at best (and I am sure I would have taken that information- the information that the guy was incredibly insecure- to really mess with them when I was younger.)
> 
> Don't get me wrong- anyone has the right to ask anything they want. But I will be watching and figuring out what kind of person you are by the questions you ask, just as you will be listening and figuring out what kind of person I am by my answers. It works both ways.


I agree with your thoughts. Someone can ask you whatever they want to but it may offend you or scare you off. My thoughts are that we don't have to answer any questions if we don't want to. The part of these discussions that I disagree with is the rationalization for outright lying. That's not a good thing no matter how it's spun. But there's a lot of motive to fib about things so we tend to minimize things we think will make us look bad in any way. So we end up with is a lot posts defending that it's perfectly fine to lie rather than saying "yea I probably should have just said I'm not comfortable with that question. Take me as I am or not".


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

> I think the women have the better argument...but they sure as hell didn't show a lot of empathy in that exchange to any of the feelings of the husbands. "Tough noogies" was the general consensus "you should have known us then...but we wouldn't have dated you anyway because we were shallow back then and weren't ready for a real relationship anyway."


What about, I did things in my past that I no longer feel comfortable doing. Perhaps she had anal sex for ego reasons with the men she was with but never actually sexually enjoyed it? Sometimes we go farther in our youth than we do when we are older. I am not saying this is the case in her situation, but perhaps another side?

I do know myself. And with my fiance I have given him everything and more than with any man I have ever been with. Not just in specifics but in heart, soul, enthusiasm. Personally I cannot relate to getting more frigid with a committed relationship. 

Someone earlier said, why is the woman's side getting pushed more than the man's side? I think it has to do with the fact that it is about what women should do with their bodies. My body is the most personal thing I own (strange to say it that way) and final say does go to me. 

And yes we should all have more compassion for the both men and women as well as the people on this board. I feel like these discussions are like the arguments a wife and husband have. They are not in as great a disagreement as they think they are, but continue to make upset charges at one another.


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## ConanHub

There are many times when this subject comes up indirectly. I think the temptation to lie or obfuscate is strong in those situations, especially for women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maria Canosa Gargano

ConanHub said:


> There are many times when this subject comes up indirectly. I think the temptation to lie or obfuscate is strong in those situations, especially for women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get that temptation because I do think the M/W complex is a pressure. 

Men get a different pressure with sex as well. Maybe not M/W but I think a much more convoluted set of pressures. 

I stopped feeling the M/W pressure when I looked at my past as a series of experiences that have brought me to where I am today instead of a measure of my value.

After I was assaulted I did not feel in my body for a long time. Not until I had a friend who entered into my life and woke my body up again through sex. I am grateful to him for that. If others judge that experience, I understand, but they did not live day to day with what I did. 

I want a man who understands my past as experiences, not as a stick to measure my worth. That shows me that he may not be looking at me, but at a set of guidelines. 

He is free to have those guidelines in his life. Me? I want someone who understands me first. That is my guideline.

I think a back and forth in this argument, stop me if I am wrong, is if women should be measured against those guidelines as if God decreed it so. I don't think so. But I think if an individual wants to measure a woman through those guidelines he is free to do so, and I am free to leave.


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## FOB

I think this can be a major indicator as to whether or not you're compatible with someone. If your SO asks you about your past and you think it's invasive, chances are that's not the last time you're going to feel controlled by them.

If you can both talk openly and maturely, without judgment, personally I think that's a good sign of things to come. Or, you find out you're polar opposites and go your separate ways. 

My wife and I talked numbers before we got married, and that was it. Years later, when I found out I had been lied to, we went a little deeper. A break in trust can blow this subject wide open.


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## lifeistooshort

Anonymous07 said:


> I asked my husband his number first and then he asked about mine.
> 
> I put a very high value on sex and didn't want to be with a man who had given it to every woman he ever dated. In the past, when I found out the guy slept around, I ended things. If the guy pushed me for sex, I ended things. I wasn't willing to be pushed for something I wasn't ready to give. Our values didn't match, so it wouldn't work out. I have only ever had sex with my husband and I'm happy about that. My husband's number is 2, one from a long term relationship and one from a one night stand that he is not proud of. I don't know details and don't want to know. I let the number go since he is a very respectful man, among many other qualities, and never pushed me for sex.
> 
> Supposedly, I am "insecure" according to this thread.



I don't think you're insecure, you place a certain value on sex and wanted someone who felt the same way. I did not ask my hb for details or a number nor did I offer one. He did not ask me, in fact he made comments that lead me to believe he didn't want to know anything. Didn't stop him from offering up all kinds of details I didn't ask for until the day I went ballistic on him. 

I knew he had a past and so did I, but frankly I find his a little disgusting. It suggests he doesn't really place that high of a value on sex, and many times I've felt like one in a long line. But he has many other great qualities so I overlooked that one. I have no desire to discuss pasts and if he were start asking I wouldn't lie but would divulge what was requested and nothing more. Not because I'm hiding anything but because I think pasts belong in the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

I'm super thick skinned about the issue myself. But I value and need honesty.

I have no problem looking into the abyss of human lust and stupidity. I get upset when it is romanticized or lied about. I can work with truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I want a man who understands my past as experiences, not as a stick to measure my worth.


Yes, this, 1000x this. The only reason I am open with my SO about anything is that he is not looking to judge me, but to understand me as a person. And since he never grills me or makes judgmental comments (and vice versa), this is not a touchy subject for us at all. Neither of us feels we need to hide anything, nor do we feel we need to reveal everything.

If I were dating again, I'd be running pretty quickly from anyone that wanted numbers and inventories to bludgeon me with in the future. There are far more compatible men out there for me.

And I say that as someone without an extensive past or anything to "confess" or "regret." Which, btw, really, really pisses me off about some TAM threads. Why does a woman have to regret her past in order for it to be accepted that she has a past? Why can't she have enjoyed her sexual adventures even if it turned out in the end she wasn't compatible with or didn't want a marriage relationship with her exes?


----------



## Fozzy

JCD said:


> Excuse me and allow me to clarify.
> 
> We had a thead or two earlier in our history in which a man discovered that his wife whom he had married for a decade (trying to dredge up memories) had been a REALLY WILD party girl back in the day. It came out during a wedding or something.
> 
> She had hid this aspect of her past from him, or at least the gritty details (you know...generic 'I did things I wasn't proud of but I'm a different person now...' stuff) and suddenly, he was wanting to know details of her former wild party life...and it came out that she had frequently and regularly um...gave no toll access down the Hersey Highway.
> 
> And yet hubby had, for the entirety of his marriage, found a 'road closed' sign on that particular on ramp.
> 
> The man felt hurt by this double standard because all his wife could do was say 'Chad' (name made up) was a real louse and she really regretted being with him, that her current husband was much better.
> 
> HIS contention was 'then why am I getting less of you than Chad ever did? I might have liked to meet your 'wild child' a couple of times in the bedroom, but she never visited ME!'
> 
> It was a big mess and a huge argument on the board, as you can imagine and a number of gentlemen who were post divorce and looking at new relationships bemoaned the idea that the women were 'giving the cream' to the bad boys and giving the skim milk to their 'beloved husbands'. (Their side)
> 
> The women cited personal autonomy "Why should I be forced to do things that I don't like doing and that I only did because I was insecure and inexperienced?"
> 
> I think the women have the better argument...but they sure as hell didn't show a lot of empathy in that exchange to any of the feelings of the husbands. "Tough noogies" was the general consensus "you should have known us then...but we wouldn't have dated you anyway because we were shallow back then and weren't ready for a real relationship anyway."
> 
> Needless to say, this went over really well...


I remember that thread. The long knives really came out on that one.


----------



## RoseAglow

Anonymous07 said:


> I asked my husband his number first and then he asked about mine.
> 
> I put a very high value on sex and didn't want to be with a man who had given it to every woman he ever dated. In the past, when I found out the guy slept around, I ended things. If the guy pushed me for sex, I ended things. I wasn't willing to be pushed for something I wasn't ready to give. Our values didn't match, so it wouldn't work out. I have only ever had sex with my husband and I'm happy about that. My husband's number is 2, one from a long term relationship and one from a one night stand that he is not proud of. I don't know details and don't want to know. I let the number go since he is a very respectful man, among many other qualities, and never pushed me for sex.
> 
> Supposedly, I am "insecure" according to this thread.


You wanted someone with very limited experience; if that was your value I think it's fair and correct to ask for it.

Now, if you started to feel very insecure in your relationship and then began to basically harass your husband about his one night stand- asking "Where was it!? What perfume was she wearing? What positions did you do?" and just dog him about it, considering him a **** and not really worth you- then I would equate your questions with the stuff I've seen on TAM previously.

As you put it, "i don't have the details and I don't want to know"- which I think is wise, because whatever he did with the ONS, is completely separate from his relationship with you, yes? You also "let the numbers go since he is a very respectful man, among other qualities".

I missed the Chad thread- the one I am thinking of is a retroactive jealousy issue when the marriage went into a rough spot. The poster was now seeing his wife though a very negative lens and got caught in a true feedback-loop. He came to realize it and corrected it; as far as I know, things improved.


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## samyeagar

norajane said:


> Yes, this, 1000x this. The only reason I am open with my SO about anything is that he is not looking to judge me, but to understand me as a person. And since he never grills me or makes judgmental comments (and vice versa), this is not a touchy subject for us at all. Neither of us feels we need to hide anything, nor do we feel we need to reveal everything.
> 
> If I were dating again, I'd be running pretty quickly from anyone that wanted numbers and inventories to bludgeon me with in the future. There are far more compatible men out there for me.
> 
> And I say that as someone without an extensive past or anything to "confess" or "regret." Which, btw, really, really pisses me off about some TAM threads. Why does a woman have to regret her past in order for it to be accepted that she has a past? Why can't she have enjoyed her sexual adventures even if it turned out in the end she wasn't compatible with or didn't want a marriage relationship with her exes?


This is such a complex issue with so many moving and interdependent parts. In some ways, I think the whole bad boy, nice guy comes into it. Given the whole list of things women want in a husband like financial and physical security, good father, kind and caring, things like that. I wonder how many men would, given that they could only be the best their wife has ever known in just one category, would want to be the best sexually over them being the best provider, or father?


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## norajane

samyeagar said:


> This is such a complex issue with so many moving and interdependent parts. In some ways, I think the whole bad boy, nice guy comes into it. Given the whole list of things women want in a husband like financial and physical security, good father, kind and caring, things like that. I wonder how many men would, given that they could only be the best their wife has ever known in just one category, would want to be the best sexually over them being the best provider, or father?


I don't understand this at all. Sounds like ego-driven insecurity rather than HER reality. Why does a man assume he isn't the best sexually if she had great sex in the past? 

Just because a woman had sex in the past and enjoyed it, doesn't mean her spouse isn't her best or that she doesn't enjoy him the most. Just because someone enjoyed sex in the past, doesn't mean she can't enjoy it even more with her spouse whom she loves more than anyone since she chose to marry him.


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> This is such a complex issue with so many moving and interdependent parts. In some ways, I think the whole bad boy, nice guy comes into it. Given the whole list of things women want in a husband like financial and physical security, good father, kind and caring, things like that. I wonder how many men would, given that they could only be the best their wife has ever known in just one category, would want to be the best sexually over them being the best provider, or father?


I think you can be the best, at least sexually, if you invest in that area. I am always curious why it seems men are concerned in this arena? Do women experience this but maybe cope differently?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

ConanHub said:


> I think you can be the best, at least sexually, if you invest in that area. I am always curious why it seems men are concerned in this arena? Do women experience this but maybe cope differently?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure my SO has had great sex in the past. I am happy that he did. I'd hate for him to have had a lifetime of crappy sex or sex he regretted. I am the best now, for sure! 

There is nothing to "cope" with. It's a non-issue.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

ConanHub said:


> I think you can be the best, at least sexually, if you invest in that area. I am always curious why it seems men are concerned in this arena? Do women experience this but maybe cope differently?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't speak for wo_men_, but as a wo_man_, no. 

Maybe because stereotypically it is more emotional? I see it as an expression of my emotions. With an old boyfriend in the past that emotion was trepidation and immature love. With my fiance, that is mature love and devotion. I don't see those as competing or related. I don't worry if he had great sex with a girlfriend. I assume on his part he is relating emotionally different from me.

I would be devastated if I turned him on in the bed more than anything and he had the greatest sex with me but he was reminiscing romantically about a previous partner.


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## ConanHub

norajane said:


> I'm sure my SO has had great sex in the past. I am happy that he did. I'd hate for him to have had a lifetime of crappy sex or sex he regretted. I am the best now, for sure!
> 
> There is nothing to "cope" with. It's a non-issue.


I'm in lock step with your viewpoint. It just seems there are more men having problems in this area than women. I don't get it but I don't understand RJ either. So I study and ask to try and figure it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I can't speak for wo_men_, but as a wo_man_, no.
> 
> Maybe because stereotypically it is more emotional? I see it as an expression of my emotions. With an old boyfriend in the past that emotion was trepidation and immature love. With my fiance, that is mature love and devotion. I don't see those as competing or related. I don't worry if he had great sex with a girlfriend. I assume on his part he is relating emotionally different from me.
> 
> I would be devastated if I turned him on in the bed more than anything and he had the greatest sex with me but he was reminiscing romantically about a previous partner.


You are wired very much like Mrs. Conan. Her sexuality is almost indistinguishable from her emotions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip

Mrs Q asked me first. We talked hers/mine but she seemed more interested in the topic and brought it up several times over the years. 

I guess I should have showed her the door when she brought it up Huh? I think not.


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## samyeagar

norajane said:


> I don't understand this at all. Sounds like ego-driven insecurity rather than HER reality. Why does a man assume he isn't the best sexually if she had great sex in the past?
> 
> Just because a woman had sex in the past and enjoyed it, doesn't mean her spouse isn't her best or that she doesn't enjoy him the most. Just because someone enjoyed sex in the past, doesn't mean she can't enjoy it even more with her spouse whom she loves more than anyone since she chose to marry him.


Using the word "insecurity" in this context is very much a pejorative, and doesn't really apply.

No one has suggested that her having great sex in the past precludes him being the best. My point was that I suspect for a lot of men, being the best sexually is at the top of their list of what they want to be in their wife's eyes.

The biggest difference that I can see is that among the things women want in a husband, things like financial security, there are objective measures, whereas being the best sexually is almost completely subjective, with only her feedback and communication to rely on.


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## ConanHub

Q tip said:


> Mrs Q asked me first. We talked hers/mine but she seemed more interested in the topic and brought it up several times over the years.
> 
> I guess I should have showed her the door when she brought it up Huh? I think not.


You are an abused man Q. Get therapy. Denial is that first sign. &#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

samyeagar said:


> Using the word "insecurity" in this context is very much a pejorative, and doesn't really apply.
> 
> No one has suggested that her having great sex in the past precludes him being the best. My point was that I suspect for a lot of men, being the best sexually is at the top of their list of what they want to be in their wife's eyes.
> 
> The biggest difference that I can see is that among the things women want in a husband, things like financial security, there are objective measures, whereas being the best sexually is almost completely subjective, with only her feedback and communication to rely on.


I think insecurity totally applies here! If a man weren't insecure, he would trust his wife's feedback and communication rather than second-guessing it or assuming he's not the best unless she has a past full of sexual regret.


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## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> The thing is that I've seen guys here on TAM who are not young write some stuff that has led to me realizing that there are a lot of guys out there who are like that crazy jealous guy.


I can tell you I have asked every single relationship partner I have had about thier history. Just number never specifics and it's never been an issue. It has nothing to do with being jealous or insecure. It has to do only with compatability. I happen to think sex is special and shouldn't be shared with every single person you meet. Others feel differently and that's ok, they just aren't the type for me then is all.

In the thread you referred to the guy in question had sex very early on and then after that asked numbers and used that as a deal breaker. What I saw was most people telling him that he can have any standard he wants but he can't have sex then use it against her which esentiallly he did. I don't rememeber anyone saying that was ok.


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## GusPolinski

Let's flip the conversation a bit...

Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?

If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?

Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?

Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


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## samyeagar

norajane said:


> I think insecurity totally applies here! If a man weren't insecure, he would trust his wife's feedback and communication rather than second-guessing it or assuming he's not the best unless she has a past full of sexual regret.


Sure, it could be insecurity if he refuses to believe her, but let's not just assume that she has communicated it in a way that he understands...ala 5 Love Languages.

The things about communicating about it is it is often wrapped in subtlties and it is very easy to assume things have been communicated properly and fully when they haven't. What may be completely self evident to the person with the feeling is sometimes as clear as mud when communicated.


----------



## John Lee

I would never ask "what's your number" or "what acts did you do with other guys." I would want to know if it's, like, less than 2, or more than, I don't know, 50, I mean it's not really the exact numbers so much as a sense of the person's past -- were they a wild party person until six months ago? A serial monogamist? A virgin living at home until age 30? I think it would be hard to seriously consider the first example or the last one -- in the first case I would worry they'd never really be able to settle down, in the last one I'd think they might be too sheltered and inexperienced.


----------



## samyeagar

Let me answer on my wife's behalf 



GusPolinski said:


> Let's flip the conversation a bit...
> 
> Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?
> 
> If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?


It made her feel like sh1t when she found out that my ex wife and I used just about every toy known to man, and I didn't really want to use them with her.



> Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?
> 
> Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


My wife considered ending things when she found out I had only been with two women.


----------



## Thundarr

ConanHub said:


> I think you can be the best, at least sexually, if you invest in that area. I am always curious why it seems men are concerned in this arena? Do women experience this but maybe cope differently?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Men often get hung up on details and don't see the forest for the trees. For example, take a man who once compromised himself and become a doormat but then learned from that experience. You won't find many women that get hung up on the details that lead their man to be someone who will not compromise his principles today. They are generally just happy with who he's become. On the other hand if the roles are reversed then men seem to focus on the things their girl did for some jerk in her past rather than realizing that she's who she is now because of dealing with that part of her past. That's my take on it anyway. We could be a lot smarter about the details we fixate on.


----------



## RoseAglow

norajane said:


> I'm sure my SO has had great sex in the past. I am happy that he did. I'd hate for him to have had a lifetime of crappy sex or sex he regretted. I am the best now, for sure!
> 
> There is nothing to "cope" with. It's a non-issue.


It's a non-issue for you and it would be for me, too.

But- at least for me, I've had a fair number of partners. In my value system, sex is fun, it's something I like to share with a person if I'm in love with them. To me, sex is an extension of the relationship. When things are good, the sex is usually great! When things start to go bad, eh, things between the sheets also gets less intense. 

For this reason, I know that even if the sex wasn't great last night, we can turn it around and have a great time next weekend. Sex isn't like Height, it's not a fixed item. It can and will vary across different times, scenarios, etc.

I think many if not most of the people who have RJ or other "numbers" issues have had very few sexual partners. If their wife won't do XYZ in bed with them, then they are SOL. If their wife is becoming a cold fish to them, then they don't have the experience (yet) to know to look at the relationship as the likely cause and not at her former numbers. (BTW I am not saying that they need to sleep with more people to get this experience or understanding- they probably only need more experience within their relationship.)

As a woman, for me, the best sex is always with the man with whom I'm in a relationship; the man who loves me, the guy I trust, the one who actively cares for me. Since I never believed in waiting for marriage, I ditched any guy who didn't click with me in bed early on. Really bad sex was never an issue- it was selected out.

My husband is far and away my very favorite of all. And, at the same time, if he suddenly changed, if he cheated, if he died, and I got into a new relationship later on? If I fell in love again and got very serious with someone, then THAT guy would become my very favorite. I would put all my attention, my care, my focus, into that relationship. 

If the sex was lacking early on and had me thinking about my ex or dead husband, then I am not ready for a relationship or I'm in the wrong one. 

If the sex was lacking later on and I was wistfully thinking back to an ex, then I know that is an issue in the relationship. 

Maybe it's different for men? Maybe it's different for other women, who knows? For me though, I don't really pull apart the sex from the rest of the relationship.


----------



## samyeagar

Thundarr said:


> Men often get hung up on details and don't see the forest for the trees. For example, take a man who once compromised himself and become a doormat but then learned from that experience. You won't find many women that get hung up on the details that lead their man to be someone who will not compromise his principles today. They are generally just happy with who he's become. On the other hand if the roles are reversed then men seem to focus on the things their girl did for some jerk in her past rather than realizing that she's who she is now because of dealing with that part of her past. That's my take on it anyway. We could be a lot smarter about the details we fixate on.


Of course, going with that comparison, many of the behaviours indicative of being a doormat are largely unattractive, so women are fine with the man he is today because he is more attractive now than he was then, they wouldn't have wanted him then.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

Perhaps numbers/positions are not a good judgement to go on.

But values and views on sex. That would be a better conversation starter.

To the people who are defending asking, I think they are pointing to finding out belief systems.

To those who are against asking, they are against value judgments of the person and obsession with details.

I still think we are talking at corners to each other. Some people are talking about raking a woman over coals for her past, and others are talking about finding if your values match up by talking about the past as being the same thing.

Doesn't mean there isn't a lot of good things coming out of this.


----------



## Echos in Bongo Flight

I will not answer questions about past lovers. Period. 

I also will not ask about past lovers, nor will I willingly listen to stories about past lovers. Although I have been hijacked into hearing stories I never wanted to know.


----------



## GusPolinski

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Perhaps numbers/positions are not a good judgement to go on.
> 
> But values and views on sex. That would be a better conversation starter.
> 
> To the people who are defending asking, I think they are pointing to finding out belief systems.
> 
> To those who are against asking, they are against value judgments of the person and obsession with details.
> 
> I still think we are talking at corners to each other. Some people are talking about raking a woman over coals for her past, and others are talking about finding if your values match up by talking about the past as being the same thing.
> 
> Doesn't mean there isn't a lot of good things coming out of this.


Good insight.


----------



## Thundarr

samyeagar said:


> Of course, going with that comparison, many of the behaviours indicative of being a doormat are largely unattractive, so women are fine with the man he is today because he is more attractive now than he was then, they wouldn't have wanted him then.


You don't see the parallel? He's allowed a woman in the past to do things that he will not allow his current woman to do. And he did it out of insecurity and fear. This is almost identical to much of some women's past that we get hung up on.


----------



## alexm

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan actually asked more questions than me. We both had things we needed to know. Mostly about our *views on sex and relationships* but also about some exes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As Conan puts it above, I think this is important to some people (and not at all important to others). It's all a matter of perspective.

I straddle the line. I see the importance of this knowledge in some situations, while also being able to understand and honor somebody's right to privacy. In other words, I see nothing wrong with asking, but also see nothing wrong in refusing to answer.

It's difficult to explain to the majority of you who see no value in this knowledge, so don't take this as me trying to convince anybody that they're wrong. Yes, it has a little to do with feeling inadequate or anxiety etc, but not entirely.

I think, personally, that getting to know somebody should also include a little bit of the "don't go there" information. To some, it's important to ensure one is on the same general wavelength when it comes to attitudes about sex and sexuality.

A lot of the advice given on this site in regards to mismatched desires and drives likely could have been divulged earlier on with a little bit of communication. Not in all cases, of course, but definitely some.

Regardless, this same general topic keeps getting rehashed here every few months or so, and the thread often devolves into arguments and confusion. To each their own, I say.

Knowing (or asking) this information can be beneficial, without a doubt. The person seeking this information is better off expecting no answer, however, and this is often where it goes off the rails.


----------



## samyeagar

Thundarr said:


> You don't see the parallel? He's allowed a woman in the past to do things that he will not allow his current woman to do. And he did it out of insecurity and fear. This is almost identical to much of some women's past that we get hung up on.


The difference is, the things he allowed a woman to do to him in the past are widely considered unattractive, but the things some men get hung up on in a woman's past are widely considered very attractive.


----------



## RoseAglow

GusPolinski said:


> Let's flip the conversation a bit...
> 
> Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?


I would not seriously a date a virgin. I would date someone with low numbers as long as it was above 2, maybe 3. I doubt that person would date me, though, LOL!



> If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?


The "past lovers" would not matter. If we didn't click sexually we would not stay together. If either of us had things that were important that the other was not willing to do, then we would split up.

BTW this is why I would not be interested in getting into a serious relationship with a virgin. I value experience and I would want my partner to have a good experience-based idea of what was and was not important to him. 



> Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?
> 
> Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


Again, beyond 0, I don't need to know the numbers. The things that matter to me are: is he loyal? Is he reliable? Is he caring? What is his preferred lifestyle? How are his boundaries? Is he smart? 

I don't care if his number is 3, 10, or 100- if he is a guy who likes to flirt with everyone woman out there, he is not the guy for me. I'm also not interested in a guy who loves to go clubbing, who is really into material possessions/status symbols, who goes to the bar after work each night etc. These are the things that actually matter to me and his "number" tells me nothing about any of them.

If a guy had 100 women from ages 15-30, then was married for 15 years and was now a 50 year old widower, and by looking at his life, meeting his friends, getting to know more about him I saw that he really had settled down and preferred a quiet, stable, life- and he met my other requirements- it's game on (assuming I was also single of course!)


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## ConanHub

I am an open book but my wife is like a vault. I am figuring out the right combination. We were talking about our histories once and she shut me up about the belly dancer. I hated the belly dancer....

Mrs. Conan is definitely afraid of being judged for her past and honestly, she has done some foul shyt, but she gets no judgment from me. I just want all of her, her beauty and ugly because I love all of her and I want us to be fully "naked" with each other and still fully accepted. I am there and she is coming along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

RoseAglow said:


> I would not seriously a date a virgin. I would date someone with low numbers as long as it was above 2, maybe 3. I doubt that person would date me, though, LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> The "past lovers" would not matter. If we didn't click sexually we would not stay together. If either of us had things that were important that the other was not willing to do, then we would split up.
> 
> BTW this is why I would not be interested in getting into a serious relationship with a virgin. I value experience and I would want my partner to have a good experience-based idea of what was and was not important to him.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, beyond 0, I don't need to know the numbers. The things that matter to me are: is he loyal? Is he reliable? Is he caring? What is his preferred lifestyle? How are his boundaries? Is he smart?
> 
> I don't care if his number is 3, 10, or 100- if he is a guy who likes to flirt with everyone woman out there, he is not the guy for me. I'm also not interested in a guy who loves to go clubbing, who is really into material possessions/status symbols, who goes to the bar after work each night etc. These are the things that actually matter to me and his "number" tells me nothing about any of them.
> 
> If a guy had 100 women from ages 15-30, then was married for 15 years and was now a 50 year old widower, and by looking at his life, meeting his friends, getting to know more about him I saw that he really had settled down and preferred a quiet, stable, life- and he met my other requirements- it's game on (assuming I was also single of course!)


Not fair! My first time was with a very experienced wild woman. Five seconds in she was gasping. "OH GOD YES!" Virgins can be hot too. Just sayin. &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> I don't care if his number is 3, 10, or 100- if he is a guy who likes to flirt with everyone woman out there, he is not the guy for me. I'm also not interested in a guy who loves to go clubbing, who is really into material possessions/status symbols, who goes to the bar after work each night and these are the things that actually matter to me.


As a guy who is closer to that 100 mark than that 10 mark (I haven't even told my wife so I'm definately not telling you guys) I can tell you this is a problem with this whole ordeal.

The problem is most of this is THE PAST!

I was the guy you describe Rose, I was that club hopping party hound player right up until my 30's when I realized that wasn't doing it for me anymore.

I am nothing like that guy now, not even close and I can't see why "The Number" matters to a man when he's interested in a woman.

You're better off just figuring out where her head is now by dating, living with, and loving her before you seek any legally permanent commitment.
Unless she's emotionally unavailable you will learn who she is NOW.
It's inevitable.

Understanding who she is NOW isn't hard if you pay attention and really give a damn.


----------



## RoseAglow

samyeagar said:


> The difference is, the things he allowed a woman to do to him in the past are widely considered unattractive, but *the things some men get hung up on in a woman's past are widely considered very attractive*.


Attractive to who? Would you really be happy doing something to your wife that hurt her, physically and/or emotionally?


----------



## GusPolinski

RoseAglow said:


> I would not seriously a date a virgin.


Fair enough. At my age, I wouldn't either! :rofl:

And, honestly, even when I was younger, I never really wanted that pressure.



RoseAglow said:


> I would date someone with low numbers as long as it was above 2, maybe 3. I doubt that person would date me, though, LOL!


OK... but, if you don't ask and he doesn't volunteer, how would you know?



RoseAglow said:


> The "past lovers" would not matter. If we didn't click sexually we would not stay together. If either of us had things that were important that the other was not willing to do, then we would split up.


Word.



RoseAglow said:


> BTW this is why I would not be interested in getting into a serious relationship with a virgin. I value experience and I would want my partner to have a good experience-based idea of what was and was not important to him.


Well, there's experience, lots of experience, and then zero experience.



RoseAglow said:


> Again, beyond 0, I don't need to know the numbers. The things that matter to me are: is he loyal? Is he reliable? Is he caring? What is his preferred lifestyle? How are his boundaries? Is he smart?
> 
> I don't care if his number is 3, 10, or 100- if he is a guy who likes to flirt with everyone woman out there, he is not the guy for me. I'm also not interested in a guy who loves to go clubbing, who is really into material possessions/status symbols, who goes to the bar after work each night etc. These are the things that actually matter to me and his "number" tells me nothing about any of them.
> 
> If a guy had 100 women from ages 15-30, then was married for 15 years and was now a 50 year old widower, and by looking at his life, meeting his friends, getting to know more about him I saw that he really had settled down and preferred a quiet, stable, life- and he met my other requirements- it's game on (assuming I was also single of course!)


OK... so imagine that you wind up in a relationship w/ a guy, and it turns out that he's almost everything that you want, almost nothing that you don't want, the chemistry and sex are great, etc... and then you find out that, prior to you, he'd only ever been w/ his ex-wife/deceased wife of 20-30 years.

How would that impact your opinion of him, your relationship w/ him, and any future that you might have w/ him?


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> Attractive to who? Would you really be happy doing something to your wife that hurt her, physically and/or emotionally?


...and this is where it gets really complicated, and goes down the path of "you did it for them, but not for me." And yes, the same applies to women too


----------



## RoseAglow

ConanHub said:


> Not fair! My first time was with a very experienced wild woman. Five seconds in she was gasping. "OH GOD YES!" Virgins can be hot too. Just sayin. ��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! I didn't say I wouldn't get with a virgin! I would just send him on his merry way to get some more fun elsewhere afterwards. Go feast, young man, and come back later and tell me of your adventures!


----------



## Thundarr

samyeagar said:


> The difference is, the things he allowed a woman to do to him in the past are widely considered unattractive, but the things some men get hung up on in a woman's past are widely considered very attractive.


I'm still not getting why you think tolerating a jerk in a woman's past is looked apon as attractive. Or why her doing something sexually she didn't like because she was insecure is attractive.

EDIT: I will add though that learning you've been lied to after you're already married throws a new spin on this. It doesn't feel good to find out something you felt like was supposed to be known beforehand.


----------



## RoseAglow

samyeagar said:


> ...and this is where it gets really complicated, and goes down the path of "you did it for them, but not for me." And yes, the same applies to women too


It is not complicated to me. Outside of extreme, life-threatening experiences, I would not ask my husband to do something that he didn't want to do, especially if it was harmful or hurtful to him. 

This is even MORE true if he knew it would be painful due to past experience and that it would dredge up a bad time for him.

If I can not get his agreement, it is off the table.


----------



## Thor

GusPolinski said:


> Just so that everyone is clear, there is absolutely NO comparison between a lover/potential lover asking questions about former lovers and a husband asking his WW/FWW questions about her affair partner(s), affair sex, etc.


Agreed. That was not what I was getting at. When married men or those in serious relationships come here, they are likely in a bad relationship. Then they find out she did something with other guys but not him. So then he wants to know what all she did before him. He compares what he is getting to what others got, and calculating something is very wrong.

If a man is in a good healthy relationship he is not likely to care what she did with other guys.


----------



## tacoma

GusPolinski said:


> OK... but, if you don't ask and he doesn't volunteer, how would you know?


I don't know my wifes number.

I do however know enough about her past to figure a reasonable range if I wanted to (which I am now doing in my head in spite of myself.Damn you people!) because I dated her, I learned how her life was before me, I knew at least one of her past lovers and I knew other people who knew her.

Unless she's been involved in some pretty epic gangbangs (which I probably would have heard about)I'd say I have a good enough idea.


----------



## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> As a guy who is closer to that 100 mark than that 10 mark (I haven't even told my wife so I'm definately not telling you guys) I can tell you this is a problem with this whole ordeal.
> 
> The problem is most of this is THE PAST!
> 
> I was the guy you describe Rose, I was that club hopping party hound player right up until my 30's when I realized that wasn't doing it for me anymore.
> 
> I am nothing like that guy now, not even close and I can't see why "The Number" matters to a man when he's interested in a woman.
> 
> *You're better off just figuring out where her head is now by dating, living with, and loving her before you seek any legally permanent commitment.
> Unless she's emotionally unavailable you will learn who she is NOW.
> It's inevitable.
> 
> Understanding who she is NOW isn't hard if you pay attention and really give a damn.*


Yes, 1000%. You are going to a million times more about a person by spending a lot of time with them, seeing them in numerous situations including stressful/difficult ones, meeting their friends/family, learning their values....then a simple number can ever tell you.



GusPolinski said:


> OK... but, if you don't ask and he doesn't volunteer, how would you know?


Great question!!! Back during my on-line dating days, I dated briefly a really nice military guy, he was in his late 20s/early 30s. We were talking about past relationships and it turned out that he'd had no serious girlfriends. He had always been focused on school, then his military career. Really, I couldn't see anything "wrong" with him but I stopped dating him. I felt bad because he knew that his lack of a past was interfering with his ability to get a relationship in the present- we talked about it. 

I never asked him his number, but I wanted someone who put a high priority on his relationship. I have no idea if he was a virgin or not but that lack of experience was enough for me to move on.

(But, I would bet a lot of money that he has made a fabulous husband for some lucky woman!!)

Or a shorter answer: I am pretty sure it's easy to suss out a 40-something person who is still a virgin without coming out an asking directly.



> OK... so imagine that you wind up in a relationship w/ a guy, and it turns out that he's almost everything that you want, almost nothing that you don't want, the chemistry and sex are great, etc... and then you find out that, prior to you, he'd only ever been w/ his ex-wife/deceased wife of 20-30 years.
> 
> How would that impact your opinion of him, your relationship w/ him, and any future that you might have w/ him?


Another great question. Well, he is above that magic "0" number. And he has 20-30 years of being married, which I am assuming were mostly happy years. His experience outweighs the low number. If he hits all the other notes, it's on.


----------



## ConanHub

tacoma said:


> I don't know my wifes number.
> 
> I do however know enough about her past to figure a reasonable range if I wanted to (which I am now doing in my head in spite of myself.Damn you people!)


LOL!!! Hahaha!&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840; Seriously. This made me laugh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anonymous07

RoseAglow said:


> You wanted someone with very limited experience; if that was your value I think it's fair and correct to ask for it.
> 
> Now, if you started to feel very insecure in your relationship and then began to basically harass your husband about his one night stand- asking "Where was it!? What perfume was she wearing? What positions did you do?" and just dog him about it, considering him a **** and not really worth you- then I would equate your questions with the stuff I've seen on TAM previously.
> 
> As you put it, "i don't have the details and I don't want to know"- which I think is wise, because whatever he did with the ONS, is completely separate from his relationship with you, yes? You also "let the numbers go since he is a very respectful man, among other qualities".


It's not about experience, it's about being with someone who thinks sex is special. That it is not something to be shared with the random person you went on 3 dates with. A one night stand does not go along with that value. I'm not happy about his ons, but I know he isn't either, which shows his value on sex. His view of sex is the same as mine, as he doesn't like to just sleep with anyone. I would not be with my husband if he had a very high number. 

I don't want to ever know the details because it would not help the situation.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

tacoma said:


> As a guy who is closer to that 100 mark than that 10 mark (I haven't even told my wife so I'm definately not telling you guys) I can tell you this is a problem with this whole ordeal.
> 
> The problem is most of this is THE PAST!
> 
> I was the guy you describe Rose, I was that club hopping party hound player right up until my 30's when I realized that wasn't doing it for me anymore.
> 
> I am nothing like that guy now, not even close and I can't see why "The Number" matters to a man when he's interested in a woman.
> 
> You're better off just figuring out where her head is now by dating, living with, and loving her before you seek any legally permanent commitment.
> Unless she's emotionally unavailable you will learn who she is NOW.
> It's inevitable.
> 
> Understanding who she is NOW isn't hard if you pay attention and really give a damn.


This doesn't happen often but reading your post has straightened everything out for me and I agree with everything you said.

Live and love now. The past is in the past.


----------



## Anonymous07

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Live and love now. The past is in the past.


I agree, but also disagree. 

Yes, the past is in the past, but the past also made you who you are today. We are a collection of our experiences and values. If you think what happened in the past does not affect who you are today, then I think that is naive. I act the way I do because of what I have been through and the values I have.


----------



## ConanHub

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> This doesn't happen often but reading your post has straightened everything out for me and I agree with everything you said.
> 
> Live and love now. The past is in the past.


Sometimes there is a struggle keeping the past in the past.

I guess many don't have issues with this but many do.

Mrs. Conan had her past try and bite us both in the ass a couple times. 

I happily dealt with it and it is no longer an issue but there are other things that still need dealt with.

A crazy sexual past can seriously screw with your future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Perhaps numbers/positions are not a good judgement to go on.
> 
> But values and views on sex. That would be a better conversation starter.
> 
> To the people who are defending asking, I think they are pointing to finding out belief systems.


:iagree:

When I met my wife in college, she had 3 previous boyfriends (and some undisclosed others). I was attracted to the fact she enjoyed sex and liked to party (not in the modern sense of sleeping around).

So what I was looking for was a compatibility with my values and preferences. She was not interested in anal, and neither was I. She had a reasonable history, at least the way she presented it, of relationships of a year or a bit more.

In terms of number, yes there would have been a disqualifying number. There would have been behavior, such as a string of ONS, which would have been disqualifying.

Asking questions to determine compatibility makes sense.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

ConanHub said:


> Sometimes there is a struggle keeping the past in the past.
> 
> I guess many don't have issues with this but many do.
> 
> Mrs. Conan had her past try and bite us both in the ass a couple times.
> 
> I happily dealt with it and it is no longer an issue but there are other things that still need dealt with.
> 
> A crazy sexual past can seriously screw with your future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was going to write something about the past coming to bite you in the ass, but I've been doing too much qualifying for the day so I let it lie in order to let the original point's strength shine.

We see a lot of that past coming back to bite people in the ass here on CWI.


----------



## RoseAglow

ConanHub said:


> Sometimes there is a struggle keeping the past in the past.
> 
> I guess many don't have issues with this but many do.
> 
> Mrs. Conan had her past try and bite us both in the ass a couple times.
> 
> I happily dealt with it and it is no longer an issue but there are other things that still need dealt with.
> 
> A crazy sexual past can seriously screw with your future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is true- the past can certainly affect the present and the future in many ways, not just sexually.


----------



## Maricha75

I voted other. I have never been asked anything. I volunteered the information, willingly. My husband knows each guy I had been with, and knows that it didn't mean I was any more experienced than he was (he was a virgin when we got together). Even if I had that much more experience, I would have told him anything he wanted to know. I feel that hiding anything like that would be a lie. That's how I feel for myself... I obviously cannot speak for anyone else.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I have never asked my wife about her history.


----------



## Red Sonja

GusPolinski said:


> Let's flip the conversation a bit...
> Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?


Nope. His past may lend understanding to his current “sexual self”, but that is all.



GusPolinski said:


> If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?


If a man will not perform oral on ME it’s a deal breaker for ME, period. I do not need to know what he did or did not do with other women, it’s irrelevant.



GusPolinski said:


> Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


Nope. If I know his “number” it would be because he volunteered it and not because I asked, it’s irrelevant.



GusPolinski said:


> Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


Nope. Although my personal preference is no virgins. And, at my age I would not want a very young man as a lover.

For me, the only questions that would need to be discussed with any potential sexual partner would be:

1. Attitudes towards sex and sexuality, because compatibility is important. For example, I would not be compatible with a man who thinks body parts or fluids are icky. I am comfortable with my own sexuality and human sexuality in general. My personal hard boundaries are sex involves mutually consenting adults and, is a private experience between two people and; no blood, no (real) pain and no animals. And, the fact that some sexual acts do not appeal to me only means just that … they do not “turn me on”.

2. Medical impediments to a sexual relationship … diseases, disabilities, etc.

3. I personally would not become sexually involved with a man who has desire/consensual experience for/with other men. Why? Because practicing bi-sexuality baffles me. I figure if I do not understand it then it is best if I do not involve myself sexually with a practicing bi-sexual. I know that bi-sexuality exists and I’m okay with that, h3ll I remember wishing I could “switch teams” in my past long-term sexless marriage, but I couldn’t and don’t understand those who can.


----------



## ntamph

I may be wrong but if I remember all of the RJ threads I've read correctly, not one was a situation where the man had as much of or more of a past than his wife. It was always an inexperienced guy finding out his wife was very experienced.

So I think it's caused by that. My RJ was less about her and more about how I thought she had a full range of experiences while I was struggling and missing out.


----------



## Thundarr

GusPolinski said:


> Let's flip the conversation a bit...
> 
> Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?
> 
> If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?
> 
> Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?
> 
> Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


Years back I worked with this guy. I'll call him Ken (since that was his name). Anyway Ken always had his little pen and note pad with him where we worked and he always kept up with who was doing what. How long people took on breaks, how many parts were rejected by QA, who was working most overtime, and god knows what else. This guy would litterally pull out his notepad and try to use it to defend why he should get a better raise then Jim or Joe or Thundarr. He was just a perpetual victim always ready to show how unappreciated he was using his notepad as a reference. My outlook however was that I made awesome money for doing an easy job so I didn't care if Ken made a little more or less. Not only was it not really my business but our company did not have a gun to my head forcing me to work for them. It was my choice.

So this thread reminds me of Ken. He would have been happy making much less money so long as everyone else made less then he did. That's the mindset a lot of men have in relationships and it doesn't make sense. Seriously if it takes learning that someone else got something we didn't for us to realize how unhappy we are then that's a sign of pride and ego more than anything else. Just my thoughts.


----------



## kokonatsu

when we first met and started dating, my husband and I both asked each other about our sexual past.. however we were both each other's first, so that was easy. it was important because we both believe sex is an intimate act between man and wife, also we are both Christians. 

I didn't even have any past boyfriend before i met him, but i answered yes to the second one.. about wanting to know how far we'd gone, because I'm very sure he would have asked me. probably not all the little details, but a general idea.. sex, oral, anal... and he had one previous girlfriend, so I asked him how far he had gone with her.

imo, it makes our relationship extra special, knowing that we are the only ones who have been sexual with each other. (not trying to degrade anyone who opines otherwise, or make a statement about that, just that it's not for me.) and if i ever get married again (knock on wood), i'd probably still ask, just to know what kind of man i'm getting to know.


----------



## Maricha75

GusPolinski said:


> Let's flip the conversation a bit...
> 
> Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?
> 
> If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?
> 
> Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?
> 
> Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?


1. Probably. I have no desire to be with a man who has had many partners. And if he lied about it just to "hook" me, that would be even worse.
2. No, it wouldn't bother me at all. As one other said, he could possibly have discovered with others that he didn't care for it. There are some things I am not open to at all, so I would view it the same way.
3. Yes, a high number would be less appealing to me. I just have no desire to be with a man who has been with many women. 
4. I would prefer a man with a low number, obviously. That is who I married. Even at my age, if I found myself in the dating pool again, I would gravitate toward those men who had been long term relationship(s) only, and not a lot of partners in the interim.


----------



## GusPolinski

Thundarr said:


> Years back I worked with this guy. I'll call him Ken (since that was his name). Anyway Ken always had his little pen and note pad with him where we worked and he always kept up with who was doing what. How long people took on breaks, how many parts were rejected by QA, who was working most overtime, and god knows what else. This guy would litterally pull out his notepad and try to use it to defend why he should get a better raise then Jim or Joe or Thundarr. He was just a perpetual victim always ready to show how unappreciated he was using his notepad as a reference. My outlook however was that I made awesome money for doing an easy job so I didn't care if Ken made a little more or less. Not only was it not really my business but our company did not have a gun to my head forcing me to work for them. It was my choice.
> 
> So this thread reminds me of Ken. He would have been happy making much less money so long as everyone else made less then he did. That's the mindset a lot of men have in relationships and it doesn't make sense. Seriously if it takes learning that someone else got something we didn't for us to realize how unhappy we are then that's a sign of pride and ego more than anything else. Just my thoughts.


Uhhhh... OK. :scratchhead:

I'm not sure if you were directing ^this^ at me, but -- since you quoted me -- I'll respond as if you were...

My wife's "number" is higher than mine. It's never bothered me. Ever.

In fact, my only _real_ concern w/ respect to her "number" has only ever been that it *ends* w/ me.

I'd think that this would be true of all (or at least _most_) husbands, but maybe that's not the case.


----------



## JCD

ConanHub said:


> Not fair! My first time was with a very experienced wild woman. Five seconds in she was gasping. "OH GOD YES!" Virgins can be hot too. Just sayin. &#55357;&#56841;
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So essentially, you just come here to brag and continue to say what an incredible stud you are. Got it.


----------



## JCD

GusPolinski said:


> Let's flip the conversation a bit...
> 
> Ladies, would you "judge" a lover or potential lover for his sexual past?
> 
> If a lover had performed certain sex acts -- for example, oral -- for past lovers that he'd refused to do for you, how would that make you feel?
> 
> Would having a high number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?
> 
> Conversely, would having a low number make a man any less appealing to you? If so, why?



I recall I asked a question last year to the ladies.

"Would you marry a man who had been with a prostitute? Even if it was once. Even if he regreted it? "

A majority of the ladies would not. If he had not already had a ring on her finger, the majority of them would have walked away from the guy.

*Over a single regretted sexual encounter.*

If they discovered this AFTER marriage...after they knew what a good guy he was with...after they understood his heart...it still raised a serious 'EWWW!' issue in the women. Not enough to dump him but enough to change their outlook of who their life partner was. The exact same way a husband blindsided about his wifes sexual past may have a 'reassessement'.

I think that most women would not stay with a man who had a single homosexual encounter either, at least according to some research.

It seems most women wouldn't ask about the past. But the past sometimes bites you on the ass...

i mention this because women are talking 'insecurity' about men taking umbrage over a number or a lack of access or whatever. But women don't care about numbers or specific sex acts.

But they do care about OTHER things. They have their own deal breakers and double standards. And some of their 'deal breakers' look an awful lot like insecurity from the other side of the fence.


----------



## Thundarr

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhhh... OK. :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm not sure if you were directing ^this^ at me, but -- since you quoted me -- I'll respond as if you were...
> 
> My wife's "number" is higher than mine. It's never bothered me. Ever.
> 
> In fact, my only _real_ concern w/ respect to her "number" has only ever been that it *ends* w/ me.
> 
> I'd think that this would be true of all (or at least _most_) husbands, but maybe that's not the case.


Well your comment is what triggered the thought but I wasn't pointing a finger at you directly. I've read enough of your comments to know you attempt gender neutral objectivity. So you flipped the script so the ladies would think about this from a new perspective. My thought is that most women see this from the point of view my comment was making even when we reverse the genders in the script. That's all.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> I recall I asked a question last year to the ladies.
> 
> "Would you marry a man who had been with a prostitute? Even if it was once. Even if he regreted it? "
> 
> A majority of the ladies would not. If he had not already had a ring on her finger, the majority of them would have walked away from the guy.
> 
> *Over a single regretted sexual encounter.*
> 
> If they discovered this AFTER marriage...after they knew what a good guy he was with...after they understood his heart...it still raised a serious 'EWWW!' issue in the women. Not enough to dump him but enough to change their outlook of who their life partner was. The exact same way a husband blindsided about his wifes sexual past may have a 'reassessement'.
> 
> I think that most women would not stay with a man who had a single homosexual encounter either, at least according to some research.
> 
> It seems most women wouldn't ask about the past. But the past sometimes bites you on the ass...
> 
> i mention this because women are talking 'insecurity' about men taking umbrage over a number or a lack of access or whatever. But women don't care about numbers or specific sex acts.
> 
> But they do care about OTHER things. They have their own deal breakers and double standards. And some of their 'deal breakers' look an awful lot like insecurity from the other side of the fence.


_ETA: Note to readers: I misread JCD's post above. I thought he said that the guy had prostituted himself once and regretted it. So read my response below with that misunderstanding in mind. {I will slink off to the shadows now.}_

You are trying to equate prostitution to normal sexual activity. Saying that it's one sex act the person does not feel good about is really playing down what he real issue is. It's not the sex. I

Prostitution is not about sex to the prostitute. A person's head (the one on their shoulders) has to be in a very very bad place to become a prostitute.

The reason most people (male and female) would not want to be in a relationship with, let alone marry, a person who is a prostitute is that they do not want to take on that person's emotional baggage. That is reasonable. 

It's the same with some guy who had sex with another guy. If a guy is bi-sexual, I'm not interested because I cannot give him what he wants. Not because there is a "gross out" factor or a character judgment.

Now that said, if I knew a guy for a long time, liked him, thought he was of good character, he was a good man.. then I found out that he had prostituted once... I'd most likely give him a chance. Why? Because I looks like he's worked through whatever lead to him prostituting himself. But I'd want to make sure that was dealt with.


----------



## GusPolinski

Thundarr said:


> Well your comment is what triggered the thought but I wasn't pointing a finger at you directly. I've read enough of your comments to know you attempt gender neutral objectivity. So you flipped the script so the ladies would think about this from a new perspective. My thought is that most women see this from the point of view my comment was making even when we reverse the genders in the script. That's all.


Gotcha.


----------



## Thundarr

JCD said:


> I recall I asked a question last year to the ladies.
> 
> "Would you marry a man who had been with a prostitute? Even if it was once. Even if he regreted it? "
> 
> A majority of the ladies would not. If he had not already had a ring on her finger, the majority of them would have walked away from the guy.


If it's the thread I remember then being with a prostitute wasn't a showstopper for most but being a fellon was. At least I remember thinking a guy could nail every girl in sight and be okay but he better not do something dumb and get a fellony because then he's SOL whether he wises up or not.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> You are trying to equate prostitution to normal sexual activity. Saying that it's one sex act the person does not feel good about is really playing down what he real issue is. It's not the sex. I
> 
> Prostitution is not about sex to the prostitute. A person's head (the one on their shoulders) has to be in a very very bad place to become a prostitute.
> 
> The reason most people (male and female) would not want to be in a relationship with, let alone marry, a person who is a prostitute is that they do not want to take on that person's emotional baggage. That is reasonable.
> 
> It's the same with some guy who had sex with another guy. If a guy is bi-sexual, I'm not interested because I cannot give him what he wants. Not because there is a "gross out" factor or a character judgment.
> 
> Now that said, if I knew a guy for a long time, liked him, thought he was of good character, he was a good man.. then I found out that he had prostituted once... I'd most likely give him a chance. Why? Because I looks like he's worked through whatever lead to him prostituting himself. But I'd want to make sure that was dealt with.


Please read what I said.

I am stating that Greg, in the course of his life, once visited a prostitute. He did it once. He felt bad about himself afterwards. The exact same excuses women sometimes use about the lamentable parts of their sexual past when they were stupid and inexperienced.

Marsha, before marriage, finds out.

She dumps him. Over a single regretted sexual encounter.

Yet...if Greg found out that she once spent a weekend at a frat house pulling a train, but she used the 'I was young and inexperienced and I regret it' she feels that she should be accorded forgiveness and understanding.

I find this...interesting that each gender has their own set of deal breakers. This thread is trying to make it seem that male worries are automatically bad and 'insecure'.


----------



## JCD

Thundarr said:


> If it's the thread I remember then being with a prostitute wasn't a showstopper for most but being a fellon was. At least I remember thinking a guy could nail every girl in sight and be okay but he better not do something dumb and get a fellony because then he's SOL whether he wises up or not.


I'll have to look it up but generally, the women were pretty down on the man.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> Please read what I said.
> 
> I am stating that Greg, in the course of his life, once visited a prostitute. He did it once. He felt bad about himself afterwards. .


Ok I completely misread your post... sorry about that. It must be my bed time...:scratchhead:



JCD said:


> The exact same excuses women sometimes use about the lamentable parts of their sexual past when they were stupid and inexperienced.


One time with a prostitute would not bother me... It's experimentation. 

Habitual use of prostitutes. I would not want anything to do with the man.


My second husband told me about him going to a prostitute few times. It was when he was stationed in Germany. It's legal there. It was the same prostitute. I had no problem with that.






JCD said:


> I find this...interesting that each gender has their own set of deal breakers. This thread is trying to make it seem that male worries are automatically bad and 'insecure'.


yes both genders has deal breakers. But the number of deal breakers surrounding sex are far fewer when it's a woman 'judging' a man.

However, we do not have an entire social structure around slvt shaming men. Generally we do not hear of women keeping an inventory in their heads of their husband's sexual past and using it to brow beat their husbands for decades. It's apparently fairly common for men to do this.

We don't even have long threads on TAM discussing what women think of men who have had ONS.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Generally we do not hear of women keeping an inventory in their heads of their husband's sexual past and using it to brow beat their husbands for decades. It's apparently fairly common for men to do this.


No...women use sex AND everything else to brow beat their husbands...including that thing he said her mother ten years ago.

Browbeating is not a gender specific sport and it's not only about sex.


----------



## JCD

Thundarr said:


> If it's the thread I remember then being with a prostitute wasn't a showstopper for most but being a fellon was. At least I remember thinking a guy could nail every girl in sight and be okay but he better not do something dumb and get a fellony because then he's SOL whether he wises up or not.


Okay, I re-read that entire thread.

Mostly is was hijacked by Lenzi and clipclop2 who had rather harsh things to say about a man who dipped his wick...well...anywhere. (I guess sexual judgementalism isn't just a male sport...)

Holland, TRBE, a woman who lived in a country where prostitution was legal, and Elegirl would listen to the story and would generally not be a big deal. Granted, some of them had a more jaded history than 'just visiting a pro' so take that for what it's worth (if you want grace, you need to give grace...which these grand ladies lived)

Three women said it was a deal breaker for them.

I think a lot of women were afraid to answer the question.


----------



## RoseAglow

JCD said:


> I find this...interesting that each gender has their own set of deal breakers. *This thread is trying to make it seem that male worries are automatically bad and 'insecure'.*


I have a different read of the thread. I interpreted as a poll to see how many women have been asked to do things like specify the number, the positions, and the names of all the men they have slept with.

Quite a number of posters, male and female, had never heard of this line of questioning prior to TAM.

For me personally, I would view someone who wanted that kind of detail as insecure, but as evidenced by the thread, mileage varies.



JCD said:


> No...women use sex AND everything else to brow beat their husbands...including that thing he said her mother ten years ago.
> 
> Browbeating is not a gender specific sport and it's not only about sex.


Well, SOME women do this. I agree that bad behavior is not gender specific. 

But in this thread, in the Ladies Lounge, is about women's experiences (or lack thereof) of what I'll call "numbers harassment." Although that isn't really quite right since several women haven't experienced the questions as harassment. It looks to me that more women have clicked "Other" but now I can't see it since I'm in the reply window. DOH.

It's been an interesting thread.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> No...women use sex AND everything else to brow beat their husbands...including that thing he said her mother ten years ago.
> 
> Browbeating is not a gender specific sport and it's not only about sex.


Yes, and men brow beat their wives about the things that they did and said 10 years ago too. Been there.. so I know.

This thread is about the questions being asked in the poll.

You are trying very hard to change the discussion of this thread.


----------



## EleGirl

RoseAglow said:


> I have a different read of the thread. I interpreted as a poll to see how many women have been asked to do things like specify the number, the positions, and the names of all the men they have slept with.


That's right. This thread is about whether or not women have been asked those questions. 



RoseAglow said:


> Quite a number of posters, male and female, had never heard of this line of questioning prior to TAM.


And this is why I asked the questions because I and just about every woman I've asked has never been asked those questions. I did not even know that anyone would ask that kind of question before I came to TAM. So I was curious.




RoseAglow said:


> For me personally, I would view someone who wanted that kind of detail as insecure, but as evidenced by the thread, mileage varies.


:iagree:



RoseAglow said:


> Well, SOME women do this. I agree that bad behavior is not gender specific.
> 
> But in this thread, in the Ladies Lounge, is about women's experiences (or lack thereof) of what I'll call "numbers harassment." Although that isn't really quite right since several women haven't experienced the questions as harassment. It looks to me that more women have clicked "Other" but now I can't see it since I'm in the reply window. DOH.
> 
> It's been an interesting thread.


I too am finding it an interesting thread. I was not sure what to expect but the discussion has mostly been pretty thoughtful.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Yes, and men brow beat their wives about the things that they did and said 10 years ago too. Been there.. so I know.
> 
> This thread is about the questions being asked in the poll.
> 
> You are trying very hard to change the discussion of this thread.



And yet you are on record that you are against such questions and that they are a mark of an insecure man.

When the question is brought up _hypothetically_, there has been vigorous debate on the issue.

One thing that I took away from re-reading my 'prostitution/felon' post was a oft repeated question by the women: why did my husband not trust me enough to tell me about his prostitute/felon past in the first place? The obvious implication is that their relationship should be open enough that this information should have been OPENLY and WILLINGLY provided by the husbands even without being asked.

And yet a man asking the same question: why didn't you trust me enough to be up front about your sexual history...is insecure.

I don't create the double standards. I only underline them.

At the end of the day, you haven't found a huge welter of insecure men that you seemed to expect to find. Most men don't ask. Most women haven't been asked. I never asked my wife.

But it is certainly a contentious debating issue. "What truths do you owe your spouse? How open should you be to your life partner?"

I certainly don't know the exact right answer to those questions.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> I recall I asked a question last year to the ladies.
> 
> "Would you marry a man who had been with a prostitute? Even if it was once. Even if he regreted it? "
> 
> A majority of the ladies would not. If he had not already had a ring on her finger, the majority of them would have walked away from the guy.
> 
> *Over a single regretted sexual encounter.*
> 
> If they discovered this AFTER marriage...after they knew what a good guy he was with...after they understood his heart...it still raised a serious 'EWWW!' issue in the women. Not enough to dump him but enough to change their outlook of who their life partner was. The exact same way a husband blindsided about his wifes sexual past may have a 'reassessement'.
> 
> I think that most women would not stay with a man who had a single homosexual encounter either, at least according to some research.
> 
> It seems most women wouldn't ask about the past. But the past sometimes bites you on the ass...
> 
> i mention this because women are talking 'insecurity' about men taking umbrage over a number or a lack of access or whatever. But women don't care about numbers or specific sex acts.
> 
> But they do care about OTHER things. They have their own deal breakers and double standards. And some of their 'deal breakers' look an awful lot like insecurity from the other side of the fence.


I would and have asked about my partners attitudes to using a prostitute before he met me.

I don't believe most women would resort to breaking up their marriage or spying etc because they found out that their husband had been with a prostitute. 

I would certainly want reassurance that it would not be something he would ever do again, and I'd want to know the circumstance. 

However I believe that's an entirely different scenario and one that could only be matched by a man finding out his wife had used prostitutes. 


The double standard is ridiculous.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> At the end of the day, you haven't found a huge welter of insecure men that you seemed to expect to find. Most men don't ask. Most women haven't been asked. I never asked my wife.


There you go making things up... and then accusing me of what you imagine. I'm not sure why you think I expected "a huge welter of insecure men".

The results are actually what I thought they would be; it's not all that common for the questions to be asked. I have stated several times on here, I did not even know that people asked that sort of question. So I asked the women on TAM their experience.

Note that the questions I asked are not the same as a couple having discussions at a level that they are both open to about things. That's completely different.

You are the only one here trying to turn this into a gender war.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> And yet you are on record that you are against such questions and that they are a mark of an insecure man.


Yes I have stated that I would not react well to being asked those questions. They are in the form of an interrogation. 

It’s one thing for a couple to have conversations and disclose things as they choose. It’s another to interrogate a person and take inventory.

And yes, I do think that if I were on a date, and he asked me those three questions, I would consider him an insecure man.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> There you go making things up... and then accusing me of what you imagine. I'm not sure why you think I expected "a huge welter of insecure men".
> 
> The results are actually what I thought they would be; it's not all that common for the questions to be asked. I have stated several times on here, I did not even know that people asked that sort of question. So I asked the women on TAM their experience.
> 
> Note that the questions I asked are not the same as a couple having discussions at a level that they are both open to about things. That's completely different.
> 
> You are the only one here trying to turn this into a gender war.


You seem to think there is never any good reason for any of these questions to be asked.

I disagree to an extent. 

Would you think that a woman asking the same question would be 'insecure'? If she was trying to establish if a guy was a player or not, with a long line of ONS and short term relationships, would she be 'insecure' or 'sensible'?


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> You seem to think there is never any good reason for any of these questions to be asked.
> 
> I disagree to an extent.
> 
> Would you think that a woman asking the same question would be 'insecure'? If she was trying to establish if a guy was a player or not, with a long line of ONS and short term relationships, would she be 'insecure' or 'sensible'?


Several posters here have posted some very good posts about how these sorts of topics came up in their conversations in which they openly discussed topics. That is different from the interrogation type questions I posted.

You have completely missed the point of the thread. It's about an interrogation. Not about a couple discussing things in an normal conversation in which they are willingly sharing information... I've said this many times and you keep ignoring it.

If a woman interrogated a man in the same manner, with the same intent of collecting data to use against him later.. yes I think she's insecure and abusive.


----------



## EleGirl

thestairs said:


> My opinion on this is if it just just 'dating', you don't need to ask. But if you walking down the 'marriage' road; and you have any questions, better ask away before you make a lifetime commitment.
> 
> My then boyfriend, now husband did Not ask me about my sexual past.
> But before we have sex, I voluntary tell him I was a virgin. I give him the choice to run if he find 'virgin' to be a turn off/dreal breaker. He gonna know when we sleep together anyways, so better off be upfront.
> 
> I (as a woman) Did ask him about his sexual past. So when he talked marriage, I make sure I have all my answers before I married him. His 2 past relationships before I came into the picture. And his one night stands when he was younger.
> 
> Freaking, the first girl he sleep with was a Korean girl back in his younger days. That explained why he always have a 'soft spot' when it come to Korean girls.
> I know I will feel 'insecurity' if he now have a friend of the opposite sex who is Korean. He married now; so he better not make close friendship with those hot/sexy looking Korean girls, or else this Chinese wife of his will be very pissed off.


Did you ask him the exact number of women he has had sex with?

Did you ask him for a list of every sexual position he has every used?

Did you ask him for a list of the names of every woman he ever had sex with?


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Several posters here have posted some very good posts about how these sorts of topics came up in their conversations in which they openly discussed topics. That is different from the interrogation type questions I posted.
> 
> You have completely missed the point of the thread. It's about an interrogation. Not about a couple discussing things in an normal conversation in which they are willingly sharing information... I've said this many times and you keep ignoring it.
> 
> If a woman interrogated a man in the same manner, with the same intent of collecting data to use against him later.. yes I think she's insecure and abusive.


Sorry, but the way you posted had no 'tone'. Read your own poll. Not once do I see "Husband slvt shaming wife'. The interogation is emotional context which only exists in your own mind, of some thuggish husband screaming questions at this quietly sobbing and shamed woman. It certainly doesn't exist in my mind as to how this conversation goes. "So...you ever try anal?" 

Information is information. If you get it by 'good cop' or 'bad cop' ways, it still is the exact same information and your questions lack all context of 'how it is asked'. 

And since just wanting this information is 'insecure', the husband who quietly and in the course of several months gets all the little details is just as 'insecure' as that thuggish monster you imagine...or as a wife/girl friend who gets the same info in a subtle way.

If wanting to know about your number of partners or your sexual experience is 'bad' or 'insecure' it is always insecure, no matter how you get it.

So if you are asking 'is it wrong for a man to interrogate a woman in a shaming and forceful manner about..." the question already answers itself and the sex part is irrelevant. People shouldn't interogate a loved one in a shameful and forceful manner (though I am keeping the teenager exception as a loophole to that) This is a "NO DUH" kind of question. 

Answer this question: If you love and trust a spouse, should you be keeping shameful and potentially harmful secrets from them?


Here is your entire first post. Please show me where you said 'interrogation' once.



EleGirl said:


> OPPS... I for got to put "NO" as a choice in the pole... so if you have never been asked any of that, click "Other" I guess.
> 
> One thing I have learned on TAM is that some men (a lot of the men on TAM) want to know this information about anyone they get serious about.
> 
> I have never had any man ask me about any of this.
> 
> I've asked a lot of women I know in real life if they have been asked to give this type of inventory. They all say no.
> 
> So I'm wondering what experiences women have had with this.
> 
> I'm also curious about how you would reply... I don't mean for you to post your number or list of sexual acts, etc.
> 
> I mean would you give them your number, or a list of acts, or a list of people?


----------



## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> Several posters here have posted some very good posts about how these sorts of topics came up in their conversations in which they openly discussed topics. That is different from the interrogation type questions I posted.
> 
> You have completely missed the point of the thread. It's about an interrogation. Not about a couple discussing things in an normal conversation in which they are willingly sharing information... I've said this many times and you keep ignoring it.
> 
> If a woman interrogated a man in the same manner, with the same intent of collecting data to use against him later.. yes I think she's insecure and abusive.






EleGirl said:


> Did you ask him the exact number of women he has had sex with?
> 
> Did you ask him for a list of every sexual position he has every used?
> 
> Did you ask him for a list of the names of every woman he ever had sex with?


Then call me insecure. I really don't care. I certainly would have asked my husband, had he not been a virgin. The position question, however, wouldn't be as bad as you seem to think, Ele. You can ask it without it appearing to be an interrogation. You know, like "What's the kinkiest thing you have ever done?" and move on from there. 

I wouldn't be involved with a man who had had more than 2-3 ONS. And certainly, I would ask if he is still in contact with/still friends with anyone he had sex with. And I would ask the names. You can call it an interrogation if you like. Insecure, too, if you wish. I want to know that I won't be blindsided in the future.


----------



## Married but Happy

Maricha75 said:


> I would ask if he is still in contact with/still friends with anyone he had sex with. And I would ask the names. .... I want to know that I won't be blindsided in the future.


That's sounds reasonable to me. I don't care much about past numbers or acts, and I am very good at evaluating and understanding the character of the person I'm dating in the present. However, knowing about their current friends who are past lovers would help avoid embarrassment and unpleasant surprises. I also wouldn't object to these friendships as long as good boundaries exist and I'm happy with the character of the woman I'm dating.

My wife and I have - over the years - discussed our pasts, though not in any real detail (unless it seemed appropriate). We knew of any past lovers who were current friends (and most still are current friends - to both of us).


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I would prefer the man to ASK.. because then I would know his sexual values were similar to mine.. Always against the wind.. I also don't feel it's insecurity for everyone of these people, I find those comments offending & judgmental..... just as you all would if we make blanket statements on how many partners you all had.

* MY H wouldn't ask*..(we've had this conversation)...BUT...and this is a big BUT... he is the type that should.. because he would not be very happy to learn his woman sucked all the frat boys once upon a time... No.. that wouldn't go over too damn well.. 

If someone holds the beauty of emotional attachment with their sexuality, why in the world would they want to be with someone who felt that was "no big deal".. we can screw and get up in the am and never see each other again.. I would never want to be with a man who looked upon sex like this.. we would never be compatible....and compatiblity in this areas is absolutely huge.. someday a couple could have children together, what are they going to teach their kids??? 

I really think one of the reasons so many parents DON'T talk to their kids about sexuality is because they fear their kids may ASK what they did.. what a shame. But today, that's the norm.. 15 yrs old... get the daughter on birth control, so she can experiment all she wants, she learns early on, that relationships aren't exactly something these young boys want with her.. so she adjusts to this, she learns to stuff her emotions , to disengage..... to say this doesn't affect her in negative ways.. I simply DISAGREE...


----------



## samyeagar

I too did not even think of these questions, and poll in an interrogation context. I don't think that was ever clearly laid out as the intent. In that context, no, I don't think it is appropriate.

Even in the RJ threads here, I don't recall the ball getting rolling because of an interrogation, and I have not noticed many men starting things out with that technique. Most situations have started in the way mine did...with NOT asking those questions, and then things trickling out over time through circumstances, other people, things like that. A picture begins to form of the person, and some feel the need to ask the person for some clarity.

I have said it numerous times, but it bares repeating...cut with the past is the past crap unless you can make sure that it doesn't become the present...and the more people involved in that past, the more difficult it is to keep it there.


----------



## frankman

Define weekend "Pulling a train."

Sexual past is not relevant in the vast majority of women. I would want to know. Mostly odd stuff
Disqualifiers

Prostitute
Porn star
Gang bangs
Swinger
BDSM at the dungeon end of the scale (IE light spanking does not count)
Regular threesomes (Not a one off adventure)
Bisexual (I cant satisfy part of her needs. I divorced over not being willing to share. It does not matter with who.)

Want to know but might or might not be a problem
Number of partners IF it was 40+ Otherwise dont want to know.
Groupie (for how long. How much on the drugs end is relevant also.)

Want to know not a disqualifier

Arty nudes (Closed legs and not with members of the other gender. Okay with this, Just don't want to be surprised)
Art model as in life drawing not involving members of the opposite gender or sexual.
I need to know any time I am in the presence of a sexual ex. Not a disqualifier but I want to know if they are around.

Otherwise I don't want to know. I know well pretty much most women have been with a monster. I don't want details. I just accept it.


----------



## I Don't Know

I did ask my wife the night we met. It wasn't to determine if our views on sex were compatible. It wasn't because I thought there was a number that would disqualify her. And I had NEVER asked anyone that question before. It was because I knew nothing about her. We were clearly on a sexual path and I wanted to know a) how risky having sex with her might be. b) if quick NSA sex was a pattern for her.

The exact exchange was:
"How many guys have you been with?"
"Ummm 8."
"Were most of those in relationships?"
"Yes. How about you?"

I have been thinking for a few weeks that RJ is a combination of insecurity and ego. Which seems contradictory to me. But with each addition to my wife's number I became a little less of a "unique little snowflake" in my mind. And I finally decided, I'm not that special. I'm not THE ONE she couldn't live without or THE ONE she was waiting her whole life for. I'm not THE GUY. I'm just a guy.


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> I did ask my wife the night we met. It wasn't to determine if our views on sex were compatible. It wasn't because I thought there was a number that would disqualify her. And I had NEVER asked anyone that question before. It was because I knew nothing about her. We were clearly on a sexual path and I wanted to know a) how risky having sex with her might be. b) if quick NSA sex was a pattern for her.
> 
> The exact exchange was:
> "How many guys have you been with?"
> "Ummm 8."
> "Were most of those in relationships?"
> "Yes. How about you?"
> 
> I have been thinking for a few weeks that RJ is a combination of insecurity and ego. Which seems contradictory to me. But with each addition to my wife's number I became a little less of a "unique little snowflake" in my mind. *And I finally decided, I'm not that special. I'm not THE ONE she couldn't live without or THE ONE she was waiting her whole life for. I'm not THE GUY. I'm just a guy*.


This is a difficult one for sure, because I imagine if you asked her, she would say that you actually ARE special, and all those other things too. And she would believe it. We spend our entire lives learning that the past is the best indicator of the present and the future, and I think the problem some run into is when confronted with objective evidence to the contrary, it is difficult to dismiss that in favor of someone elses subjective feelings. Then it becomes a matter of faith and trust in your partner.


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> If someone holds the beauty of emotional attachment with their sexuality, why in the world would they want to be with someone who felt that was "no big deal".. we can screw and get up in the am and never see each other again.. I would never want to be with a man who looked upon sex like this.. we would never be compatible....and compatiblity in this areas is absolutely huge.. someday a couple could have children together, what are they going to teach their kids???


Your thought doesn't account for growth, change, or just immaturity. Sex not being a big deal to someone years ago doesn't mean it's not a big deal today. I get your point though regarding compatibility but I suggest that compatibility is based a lot on the present and just a little on the past. If I for example could go back and do-over the past then there are many things I'd do differently.


----------



## Thor

It would be interesting to look at age as a factor, plus number of partners the asker has had, in how likely a person is to want to know these things. When I was in high school and college it was a common point of discussion. It did seem important to me back then. Today it is not nearly so important in the details of her history, but still important as an indicator of the woman's character, values, desires, dislikes, etc.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
If I were to find a new partner (not happening btw), I would be interested, not in their sexual past, but in their sexual interests. I don't care what they DID, but I would be very interested in what they would like to DO. 

Sexual compatibility is very important. Something someone did in the past that they have no intention of repeating isn't interesting, but things they did and want to do again does matter.

In general limited sexual interests would be more of a problem for me than broad ones.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

RoseAglow said:


> Great question!!! Back during my on-line dating days, I dated briefly a really nice military guy, he was in his late 20s/early 30s. We were talking about past relationships and it turned out that he'd had no serious girlfriends. He had always been focused on school, then his military career. Really, I couldn't see anything "wrong" with him but I stopped dating him. I felt bad because he knew that his lack of a past was interfering with his ability to get a relationship in the present- we talked about it.
> 
> I never asked him his number, but I wanted someone who put a high priority on his relationship. I have no idea if he was a virgin or not but that lack of experience was enough for me to move on.


It would seem that past history weighed more than where he was currently in his mind set. I am curious why found that the case here, yet find it problematic when others do so in different circumstances.


----------



## RoseAglow

Tall Average Guy said:


> It would seem that past history weighed more than where he was currently in his mind set. I am curious why found that the case here, yet find it problematic when others do so in different circumstances.


His current circumstance wasn't very different from his past. At that time, he still had not experienced having a girlfriend or a significant relationship. He was looking to fix that, but it hadn't changed.

Since my personal preference was to find people with more experience, even currently he did not fit that bill. There was no discrepancy.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> Your thought doesn't account for growth, change, or just immaturity. Sex not being a big deal to someone years ago doesn't mean it's not a big deal today. I get your point though regarding compatibility but I suggest that compatibility is based a lot on the present and just a little on the past.* If I for example could go back and do-over the past then there are many things I'd do differently.*


I agree with you.. and that's why it shouldn't be a BIG DEAL then..share with each other.. speak to what you have learned along the way... if you have easily separated love & sex in the past.. but now you are not LIKE THIS... I think that's a pretty significant part of "growing"... and someone they may marry someday deserves to understand *that transformation*..

If they can't accept it... believe it for the truth that this person has presented before them...that they have "lived & learned" and now sees what is truly important.. then it's best to go their separate ways early on..

Heaven Knows there are more who screwed around for FUN & pleasure like it's a right of passage in our youth...over those who didn't, and waited.. and surely we see the judgement on those types also.. women who would dump the virgin male.. like he is some sort of freak.. 

On either end of this.. one should not be with the other who holds these judgmental views.. but cares to understand *the WHY's *behind the choices we have made.. if a couple can't be vulnerable in THIS ... as they are getting to know each other.. I would suspect other aspects of their relationship will suffer in the future... but I am speaking as one who greatly values a willing transparency.. I would never put up with someone who gave me any sort of "It's none of your business" attitude when I was seeking to know them...building that connection.

I would find that much more UGLY and standoffish over this question. We all come with a different perspective and we seek different things. 

Most would never admit they would go back and change anything.. If I counted all the posts I read like this here on good ol' TAM... It would be less than a handful.. (I've noticed you said it more than once though)...


----------



## RoseAglow

Maybe it's too much TAM, but I linked the poll to several other past TAM threads and had it in my mind as more of an interrogation. This is linked in my mind to several RJ threads where these questions literally seemed to torment the guy, and also caused a lot of pain for the woman. (Again, I consider this very different from infidelity threads.)

I think the pattern in the thread is, RJ-related or not, is


People with 0-few previous partners really care about sex a lot and would ask for more details, at least the number. 

People with more partners don't really care about details like numbers or names or past positions.

But maybe this is generalizing too much or reflects my own bias reading the thread.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

RoseAglow said:


> His current circumstance wasn't very different from his past. At that time, he still had not experienced having a girlfriend or a significant relationship. He was looking to fix that, but it hadn't changed.
> 
> Since my personal preference was to find people with more experience, even currently he did not fit that bill. There was no discrepancy.


Well, in your post you stated that you wanted "someone who put a high priority on his relationship." From that, it appeared that you applied what had he had not done in the past, as opposed to where he was now.

Thanks for the correction.


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> Maybe it's too much TAM, but I linked the poll to several other past TAM threads and had it in my mind as more of an interrogation. This is linked in my mind to several RJ threads where these questions literally seemed to torment the guy, and also caused a lot of pain for the woman. (Again, I consider this very different from infidelity threads.)
> 
> I think the pattern in the thread is, RJ-related or not, is
> 
> 
> People with 0-few previous partners really care about sex a lot and would ask for more details, at least the number.
> 
> People with more partners don't really care about details like numbers or names or past positions.
> 
> But maybe this is generalizing too much or reflects my own bias reading the thread.


I have read most of the threads here on RJ, as that is something I deal with myself, though my circumstances I think are quite different than normal RJ. It could be my own bias in reading, but most of them to me did not seem to begin with any kind of interrogation. Rather, as things trickled out over time, and through various means, the questions began to be asked.

My wife was the one to flat out ask me my number, and was quite taken aback when I told her it was two. She is well into the thirties. She still doesn't know many details of my past because she hasn't asked, nor have I volunteered, and there are some that as I know her today, would make her very uncomfortable and insecure. The choices I made however pretty much preclude her ever having to know more than she does, with next to zero chance of her finding out through other means. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about her past.


----------



## Q tip

ConanHub said:


> You are an abused man Q. Get therapy. Denial is that first sign. &#55357;&#56833;
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What's that sexual harassment phone help number again? I haven't been abused yet today...


----------



## BradWesley

QUOTE=JCD;11851529]So essentially, you just come here to brag and continue to say what an incredible stud you are. Got it

[/QUOTE]


ConanHub said:


> Not fair! My first time was with a very experienced wild woman. Five seconds in she was gasping. "OH GOD YES!" Virgins can be hot too. Just sayin. ��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The more he posts, the more he becomes a legend in his own mind here at TAM - LOL.


----------



## JCD

I've been gone for several months. What is this 'RJ' that everyone is mentioning? This is new slang to me.


----------



## Q tip

Well, Ive got STD, all I need is U

Lol


----------



## ConanHub

BradWesley said:


> QUOTE=JCD;11851529]So essentially, you just come here to brag and continue to say what an incredible stud you are. Got it


The more he posts, the more he becomes a legend in his own mind here at TAM - LOL.[/QUOTE]

Love you bro. If you need some special cuddle time we could set up a date but I won't go farther than a kiss. &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

JCD said:


> I've been gone for several months. What is this 'RJ' that everyone is mentioning? This is new slang to me.


Retroactive Jealousy. Sounds pretty hard to deal with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

ConanHub said:


> Retroactive Jealousy. Sounds pretty hard to deal with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you.


----------



## GusPolinski

JCD said:


> So essentially, you just come here to brag and continue to say what an incredible stud you are. Got it





BradWesley said:


> The more he posts, the more he becomes a legend in his own mind here at TAM - LOL.





ConanHub said:


> Love you bro. If you need some special cuddle time we could set up a date but I won't go farther than a kiss. ��


I think I have Dr. Jumpsuit's phone number around here somewhere if you guys are interested.

ETA: Quote Jumble FTW!


----------



## BradWesley

ConanHub said:


> The more he posts, the more he becomes a legend in his own mind here at TAM - LOL.


Love you bro. If you need some special cuddle time we could set up a date but I won't go farther than a kiss. ��
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Your post doesn't surprise me. Maybe you're bi-sexual, I don't know, nor do I care. But hey, keep on posting dude, the entertainment value is priceless!


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> I think I have Dr. Jumpsuit's phone number around here somewhere if you guys are interested.
> 
> ETA: Quote Jumble FTW!


Could you provide a link? I looked up Dr. Jumpsuit and got some strange, yet funny, results. &#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

BradWesley said:


> Love you bro. If you need some special cuddle time we could set up a date but I won't go farther than a kiss. ��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your post doesn't surprise me. Maybe you're bi-sexual, I don't know, nor do I care. But hey, keep on posting dude, the entertainment value is priceless![/QUOTE]

You should P.M. me to tell me why your so pissed at me instead of using a thread to display your disgust for me.

This is a fun thread. I don't lie but I don't take myself near as seriously as you seem to.

If you do some research on me, you will find that I have a ton of shyt I deal with and am often hurting and probably more screwed up than half the posters here.

There are things that I have experienced though and things I'm damn good at. I don't lie about where I'm shytty or where I shine.

Again, I don't take myself nearly as seriously as you. I have also been pretty up front with just how damn confident/arrogant I am. 

I'm just being up front with who I am and my flaws. I'm not trying to ruin your day. If you call me an arrogant A-hole, I not only will agree with you but tell you that you haven't gone far enough.

Who I am/was actually disgusts several posters that I admire. I'm still honest even though it lowers me in their esteem.

Peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> Your post doesn't surprise me. Maybe you're bi-sexual, I don't know, nor do I care. But hey, keep on posting dude, the entertainment value is priceless!





> You should P.M. me to tell me why your so pissed at me instead of using a thread to display your disgust for me.
> 
> This is a fun thread. I don't lie but I don't take myself near as seriously as you seem to.
> 
> If you do some research on me, you will find that I have a ton of shyt I deal with and am often hurting and probably more screwed up than half the posters here.
> 
> There are things that I have experienced though and things I'm damn good at. I don't lie about where I'm shytty or where I shine.
> 
> Again, I don't take myself nearly as seriously as you. I have also been pretty up front with just how damn confident/arrogant I am.
> 
> I'm just being up front with who I am and my flaws. I'm not trying to ruin your day. *If you call me an arrogant A-hole, I not only will agree with you but tell you that you haven't gone far enough.*
> 
> Who I am/was actually disgusts several posters that I admire. I'm still honest even though it lowers me in their esteem.
> 
> Peace.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


...and the only thing that could make the chicks drop their panties any faster for you is if you'd slap 'em around a bit too  You are a vampire billionaire pirate too right?


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> ...and the only thing that could make the chicks drop their panties any faster for you is if you'd slap 'em around a bit too  You are a vampire billionaire pirate too right?


Just a recovering bad ass. My escapades all took place between age 14 and 20. I don't even know what happened. I'm looking back trying to figure it out.

Pirate, yes, other stuff, not so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Red Sonja

ConanHub said:


> Just a recovering bad ass. My escapades all took place between age 14 and 20.


Amateur, I was sneaking into bars to watch punk bands in NYC at 13.


----------



## JCD

intheory said:


> Why would ConanHub make stuff up about having a lot of women in his past?


Ego buffs? Low self esteem? Because some people just like lying?

I make none of those accusations. I don't care if it's God's Honest Truth or not.



> No-one here knows who he is; so what would be the point?


See above.



> I don't understand making fun of him for sharing his experience.


Not making fun of him. Noting that when about one in three (or more) of his posts is essentially about how he has random women constantly wanting to jump on his pogo stick, he is not adding any content to the actual issues at hand or helping anyone except maybe himself.

Less about 'making fun of him' than indicating that, in fact, it is getting repetitive, tedious and frankly, TMI.

Of course, at TAM, we encourage a free exchange on ideas. He has exhanged the idea many (MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY) times told us that he is a sex god.

I am exchanging the idea that *WE GOT THE MEMO*.


----------



## JCD

Here is one of the problems I have on this thread.

Elegirl seems to be postulating that an insecure guy comes up to a woman and just starts asking more and more pointed questions, to the point where he is now some KGB interrogator drilling someone, looking for the slightest inconsistancy in her story just so he can now slvt shame this woman into doing his sexual bidding. Because...you know...men just wake up one day and decide to absolutely alienate themselves from their spouses/SOs out of the blue like that.

So here are some questions about this scenario which immediately leap to mind:

WHY is he doing this...now?

HOW did he get so staggeringly insecure that he is acting like a total ass? Because, not to put too fine a point on it, most women can detect that level of insecurity pretty early and cut him loose...so this is most likely NOT a preexisting condition.

So...if this is true, how did he get to be this insecure ass?

Well, I decided to turn it around.

Hypothetical:

So a woman is married to hubby. Because 'the past is the past' they don't discuss their sexual histories. Because we are all _soooo_ secure and high minded.

So in the course of marriage, wife finds out hubby visited a prostitute. I can see wife's reaction as 'EWWWW' followed by 'why didn't you tell me?' But since she's had a few indiscretions of her own and she's known him this long and it hasn't risen to divorce levels of problems, she lets it go with the internal note to keep a closer eye on 'wh*remonger' here.

Then comes the college reunion where a drunken Steve tells wife the story about hubby's trip to Thailand in his Junior year where hubby drunkenly came out of a cathouse grinning ear to ear about 'the best sex I ever had'. Wife is wincing. She doesn't like this to be public knowledge and she certainly does not like the implied slam on her talents but hey...this was disclosed...sort of...though she's seething a bit.

Then comes the kicker: The 'pro' was a ladyboy (a shemale) and drunken Steve wasn't AT that Thailand trip. He had only HEARD about it! This has been common gossip among the entire class and she'd been with 'Mr. Ladyboy' among all these strangers for the past several hours/days of however long the reunion lasted. Suddenly the comments of 'hubby liking Thai food' and the odd questions of hubby not having married an Asian woman sort of gel together into a big red seething powder keg.

Somehow, I am supposed to believe that the wife, blindsided and humiliated by all of this, is *not* going to march her husband to wherever and start acting like said KGB agent to find out EXACTLY what went on in his life and what other little 'surprises' he left out of his sexual history in detail! (Of course, she WILL NOT have healthy amounts of either screaming or passive aggressive 'loudly not speaking to him' added to the mix. Cause she's 'high minded')

That is exactly what that wife is going to do.

And when some of the husbands on these threads Ele is talking about find out that their wives' 'past' becomes their 'present', they react the exact same way.

So there is the context that Elegirl is leaving out. The threads where this happens generally has a reveal come bite the husband on the ass about his wife's past before they start reacting badly.


BUT...not always. Some guys ARE just that insecure.


----------



## EleGirl

intheory said:


> Why would ConanHub make stuff up about having a lot of women in his past?
> 
> No-one here knows who he is; so what would be the point?
> 
> I don't understand making fun of him for sharing his experience.


ConanHub is often joking around with the things he says. It seems that some people do not get his sense of humor.


----------



## ConanHub

It was in response to a comment about not wanting to be with a virgin. It was true but meant to be funny. I think the person I responded to got it. Very sorry some men got their feathers ruffled.

I usually talk about my experience in context to what is being discussed.

I also usually try to make light of it and have a laugh. Want some shyt with the sunshine?

The young lady who took my virginity was a CSA like me. Her father raped her and that is possibly why she was so wild. I've got tons of shyt I have lived through that can't even be expressed here because I don't want to give people nightmares and make them puke.

Want to hear some negatives? I'm terrible with money, I'm sometimes emotionally paralyzed by a stupid movie or news report. I have terrible anger issues, I didn't raise my boys as well as I should have and I have so many injuries that I sometimes can't get around any better than an 80 year old. My back was broken before I was 10 and I have more scars than I can count, all but two of which were received before age 15.

I am pretty matter of fact and I never realized so many people had trouble getting laid because that was one thing that happened a lot and without effort. I don't think it makes me better than anyone. I try to make light of it because the circumstances surrounding me getting laid a lot were pretty hellish.

I am genuinely curious about human attraction and I love threads about that subject. If I.could go back in time and have a different life, I would. I wish I was only with my wife. Life really sucked and a lot of women wanted to fvck me. Go figure.

I have been with the same woman for over 23 years and am pretty tame now but I am trying to untangle my past. I don't feel threatened when others share their experiences and there are several with more experience than me. 

When I'm talking about my relationship with Mrs. Conan, I am bragging. I am very proud of her and my marriage.

When I am sharing about my past, I am usually joking or trying to get insight into a very dark time in my life.

Quit being pissed. Sheesh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Several posters here have posted some very good posts about how these sorts of topics came up in their conversations in which they openly discussed topics. That is different from the interrogation type questions I posted.
> 
> You have completely missed the point of the thread. It's about an interrogation. Not about a couple discussing things in an normal conversation in which they are willingly sharing information... I've said this many times and you keep ignoring it.
> 
> If a woman interrogated a man in the same manner, * with the same intent of collecting data to use against him later.. yes I think she's insecure and abusive. *





Maricha75 said:


> * Then call me insecure. * I really don't care. I certainly would have asked my husband, had he not been a virgin. The position question, however, wouldn't be as bad as you seem to think, Ele. You can ask it without it appearing to be an interrogation. You know, like "What's the kinkiest thing you have ever done?" and move on from there.
> 
> I wouldn't be involved with a man who had had more than 2-3 ONS. And certainly, I would ask if he is still in contact with/still friends with anyone he had sex with. And I would ask the names. You can call it an interrogation if you like. Insecure, too, if you wish. I want to know that I won't be blindsided in the future.


You apparently did not understand what is wrote. 
That bit about * “with the same intent of collecting data to use against him later” * is part of the sentence. I rather doubt that you had any intention of collecting data to use against him later.


.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> Here is one of the problems I have on this thread.
> 
> Elegirl seems to be postulating that an insecure guy comes up to a woman and just starts asking more and more pointed questions, to the point where he is now some KGB interrogator drilling someone, looking for the slightest inconsistancy in her story just so he can now slvt shame this woman into doing his sexual bidding. Because...you know...men just wake up one day and decide to absolutely alienate themselves from their spouses/SOs out of the blue like that.
> 
> So here are some questions about this scenario which immediately leap to mind:
> 
> WHY is he doing this...now?
> 
> HOW did he get so staggeringly insecure that he is acting like a total ass? Because, not to put too fine a point on it, most women can detect that level of insecurity pretty early and cut him loose...so this is most likely NOT a preexisting condition.
> 
> So...if this is true, how did he get to be this insecure ass?
> 
> Well, I decided to turn it around.
> 
> Hypothetical:
> 
> So a woman is married to hubby. Because 'the past is the past' they don't discuss their sexual histories. Because we are all _soooo_ secure and high minded.
> 
> So in the course of marriage, wife finds out hubby visited a prostitute. I can see wife's reaction as 'EWWWW' followed by 'why didn't you tell me?' But since she's had a few indiscretions of her own and she's known him this long and it hasn't risen to divorce levels of problems, she lets it go with the internal note to keep a closer eye on 'wh*remonger' here.
> 
> Then comes the college reunion where a drunken Steve tells wife the story about hubby's trip to Thailand in his Junior year where hubby drunkenly came out of a cathouse grinning ear to ear about 'the best sex I ever had'. Wife is wincing. She doesn't like this to be public knowledge and she certainly does not like the implied slam on her talents but hey...this was disclosed...sort of...though she's seething a bit.
> 
> Then comes the kicker: The 'pro' was a ladyboy (a shemale) and drunken Steve wasn't AT that Thailand trip. He had only HEARD about it! This has been common gossip among the entire class and she'd been with 'Mr. Ladyboy' among all these strangers for the past several hours/days of however long the reunion lasted. Suddenly the comments of 'hubby liking Thai food' and the odd questions of hubby not having married an Asian woman sort of gel together into a big red seething powder keg.
> 
> Somehow, I am supposed to believe that the wife, blindsided and humiliated by all of this, is *not* going to march her husband to wherever and start acting like said KGB agent to find out EXACTLY what went on in his life and what other little 'surprises' he left out of his sexual history in detail! (Of course, she WILL NOT have healthy amounts of either screaming or passive aggressive 'loudly not speaking to him' added to the mix. Cause she's 'high minded')
> 
> That is exactly what that wife is going to do.
> 
> And when some of the husbands on these threads Ele is talking about find out that their wives' 'past' becomes their 'present', they react the exact same way.
> 
> So there is the context that Elegirl is leaving out. The threads where this happens generally has a reveal come bite the husband on the ass about his wife's past before they start reacting badly.
> 
> 
> BUT...not always. Some guys ARE just that insecure.


You have a wild imagination and a way of twisting things to set it up for a fight.

I'm not biting. Have fun with your anger.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> You have a wild imagination and a way of twisting things to set it up for a fight.
> 
> I'm not biting. Have fun with your anger.


Every thread I remember where suddenly the husband was acting like you describe had some triggering incident which made him insecure. Some secret or humiliating event which caused a blow up.

Or are you saying that is not true? (Granted, I have not read every thread)

This isn't imagination. It's a fact. I am simply trying to put it in a context where it is the WOMAN being humilated by a secret kept in marriage to try to effectively communicate the emotions felt by the husband.

I recall that one thread where three guys at a wedding were telling the husband about all the wild sexual escapades they indulged in with his wife. Yeah...no reason for upset there.  

Then there was the one where the wife told hubby 'I had a lot of partners' but later found out that she actually worked as a prostitute for drugs for a short time. Nope...he doesn't need any expansion on those details. 

This isn't about you or a hypothetical fight. I am telling the viewing audience 'the rest of the story'


----------



## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> You apparently did not understand what is wrote.
> That bit about * “with the same intent of collecting data to use against him later” * is part of the sentence. I rather doubt that you had any intention of collecting data to use against him later.
> 
> 
> .


No, Ele, I understood it just fine. Really, what difference does it make whether someone wants to know or not? The implication, it seems, whether you want to admit it or not, is that a woman (or even a man) who wants to know these things is insecure... and apparently abusive, too. In reality, what is learned will be used against the asked, whether consciously or subconsciously. How? Because, whether most wish to admit it or not, we ALL have preconceived ideas of what we want in a man or a woman. I'm just not afraid to admit it. I'm glad my husband was a virgin. If he had had more than 2-3 partners, we would not be together. And the same would apply to any man I would potentially date if, God forbid, I ever enter the dating pool again. I might be willing to go as high as 5, over his entire life, but that's it. So, I guess you could say the information would be used against this fictional man... and I would, by your own definition, be insecure. And I am very much OK with that! I know what I want in a man, knew even when I met my husband. I didn't settle then, and I wouldn't settle in the future.


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> No, Ele, I understood it just fine. Really, what difference does it make whether someone wants to know or not? The implication, it seems, whether you want to admit it or not, is that a woman (or even a man) who wants to know these things is insecure... and apparently abusive, too. In reality, what is learned will be used against the asked, whether consciously or subconsciously. How? Because, whether most wish to admit it or not, we ALL have preconceived ideas of what we want in a man or a woman. I'm just not afraid to admit it. I'm glad my husband was a virgin. If he had had more than 2-3 partners, we would not be together. And the same would apply to any man I would potentially date if, God forbid, I ever enter the dating pool again. I might be willing to go as high as 5, over his entire life, but that's it. So, I guess you could say the information would be used against this fictional man... and I would, by your own definition, be insecure. And I am very much OK with that! I know what I want in a man, knew even when I met my husband. I didn't settle then, and I wouldn't settle in the future.


I started this thread because I and it seems a lot of people have never asked or had these kinds of questions asked of them. So I wanted to see how many of the women here have had a guy ask them these questions.


Now the bit about the way I feel about people who ask those questions come directly from thread and posts here on TAM. There are have been a lot of posts by men who seem to use these kinds of questions to gather info then use that info in a very hurtful manner against the woman. And when some guy posts about this... there is no shortage of guys who jump on the band wagon. This impression I get from threads/posts on TAM is separate from the poll that is a simple question.


----------



## tripad

been thinking about this question after my divorce and know that I will try dating soon .

well to answer the poll , before my marriage , I have boys asking me , or men , but usually they are the bad guys trying to judge how easy to get me to have sex . so , no , I don't tell and I don't sleep with them either . didn't think it's their business .

My ex H and I do tell each other and to be fair to him on this one , the information has not been used against each other .

going forward , if I am to date again .

my thoughts are as follows .

I would share if marriage is on the table .

I think I want to know so that we have similar value systems , not to judge . I am traditional in family values and sex attitudes . so a guy who has prostitutes , one night stand , gay sex and others would not gel with me .

I would not like to have "the past coming back to bite me on my ass"

It is not to judge the person . I respect my gay , lesbian friends and respect our differences .

since I m divorced and of a certain age , I would not expect a virgin bf . but I suppose I would want to know the number of partners and it is not with someone I know and that they don't maintain contact if we r in a relationship .

if he has been on a sex rampage , it would not gell with me either .

And I would expect myself to reciprocate the same out of respect and love .

I don't need to know the position or his favourite position . I would like to find out myself . unless it is something not usual ( like maybe he prefers a whip and I don't like to be whip  haha )and I may not participate and cause the bf unhappiness . so he may be better off with another person then .

gosh . I have to deal with this .....


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> Every thread I remember where suddenly the husband was acting like you describe had some triggering incident which made him insecure. Some secret or humiliating event which caused a blow up.
> 
> Or are you saying that is not true? (Granted, I have not read every thread)
> 
> This isn't imagination. It's a fact. I am simply trying to put it in a context where it is the WOMAN being humilated by a secret kept in marriage to try to effectively communicate the emotions felt by the husband.
> 
> I recall that one thread where three guys at a wedding were telling the husband about all the wild sexual escapades they indulged in with his wife. Yeah...no reason for upset there.
> 
> Then there was the one where the wife told hubby 'I had a lot of partners' but later found out that she actually worked as a prostitute for drugs for a short time. Nope...he doesn't need any expansion on those details.
> 
> This isn't about you or a hypothetical fight. I am telling the viewing audience 'the rest of the story'


Who gives a crap if hubby slept with every shemale in Thailand prior to marriage...providing his STD tests came back clean? I simply cannot imagine a scenario in which my H's premarriage sexcapades would have anything what so ever to do with me. I can't imagine being hurt that he had bragged about the best sex ever prior to marriage. Actually, I think it's rather silly to be upset or hurt or even humiliated about that.


----------



## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> *Who gives a crap if hubby slept with every shemale in Thailand prior to marriage...providing his STD tests came back clean?* I simply cannot imagine a scenario in which my H's premarriage sexcapades would have anything what so ever to do with me. I can't imagine being hurt that he had bragged about the best sex ever prior to marriage. Actually, I think it's rather silly to be upset or hurt or even humiliated about that.


I am one who would care. How sexually active he was (or was not) carries a lot of weight for me.


----------



## tripad

Maricha75 said:


> I am one who would care. How sexually active he was (or was not) carries a lot of weight for me.


:iagree:

It implies value system which may not be the same as mine .

or how they view sexcapades even during marriage .

n I am one who believes that a person's value system is ingrained and doesn't change .


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Who gives a crap if hubby slept with every shemale in Thailand prior to marriage...providing his STD tests came back clean? I simply cannot imagine a scenario in which my H's premarriage sexcapades would have anything what so ever to do with me. I can't imagine being hurt that he had bragged about the best sex ever prior to marriage. Actually, I think it's rather silly to be upset or hurt or even humiliated about that.


Anon, I think you are going to find yourself an outlier on that particular bit of apathy.

I think that a lot of women blindsided by this WOULD give a crap (we have two so far). And if some of the responses are any indication, quite a number of women don't think that asking a man about numbers or any hidden surprises is unreasonable information for THEM to ask...and therefore, not out of bounds for a man to ask the same...as long as it is done in a tasteful and respectful manner.

Blackmailing, shaming or forcing someone to do something...that's a no brainer. Easily conceded and not the interesting part of the question at all.

As always, Anon, you are unique but in a good way.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I think it's normal to care about some things, like cheating for example. But exactly how many people and what they did. MEH

It's when someone goes beyond that and is upset or outraged about past sexual activities that it becomes weird and OTT.


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> Anon, I think you are going to find yourself an outlier on that particular bit of apathy.
> 
> I think that a lot of women blindsided by this WOULD give a crap (we have two so far). And if some of the responses are any indication, quite a number of women don't think that asking a man about numbers or any hidden surprises is unreasonable information for THEM to ask...and therefore, not out of bounds for a man to ask the same...as long as it is done in a tasteful and respectful manner.
> 
> Blackmailing, shaming or forcing someone to do something...that's a no brainer. Easily conceded and not the interesting part of the question at all.
> 
> As always, Anon, you are unique but in a good way.


The truth is, those who feel their spouse's premarriage experience reflects on them in any way what so ever, unless it's some dude who prayed the gay away  are assuming ownership that doesn't belong to them.

Since I posted that, I thought of this question from the POV of the 20 year old planning her wedding.

Finding out my husband to be had slept with half the playboy bunnies in Hugh Hefner's mansion WOULD matter to me because I would feel totally inadaquate next to his experience. I would probanly cancel the wedding because I know in my heart I could never "stack up" to that kind of experience and that his life with me would be so mundane he'd leave me within a year.

I don't buy the "values sharing" point at all. You can cloak it however you want but the bottom line is that it is insecurity that what you offer would not compete with what your spouse has had. And that's okay. It really is okay. Just be honest about it.


----------



## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> The truth is, those who feel their spouse's premarriage experience reflects on them in any way what so ever, unless it's some dude who prayed the gay away  are assuming ownership that doesn't belong to them.
> 
> Since I posted that, I thought of this question from the POV of the 20 year old planning her wedding.
> 
> Finding out my husband to be had slept with half the playboy bunnies in Hugh Hefner's mansion WOULD matter to me because I would feel totally inadaquate next to his experience. I would probanly cancel the wedding because I know in my heart I could never "stack up" to that kind of experience and that his life with me would be so mundane he'd leave me within a year.
> 
> I don't buy the "values sharing" point at all. You can cloak it however you want but the bottom line is that it is insecurity that what you offer would not compete with what your spouse has had. And that's okay. It really is okay. Just be honest about it.


Well, I did tell Ele to go ahead and call me insecure, and it seems my feelings on the subject would make me insecure in your eyes as well. And that's ok. I am used to being on the outside on many subjects. However, I don't see it that way. In my opinion, I would not be a good match with anyone who ever viewed sex in that "sowing his oats" kind of thing. That IS a values sharing sort of thing. For me, it's not about "stacking up". It is about how both of us view sex, both past and present. I was fortunate that my husband and I share the same views on the subject.

And we disagree on the first point, as well. My husband and I actually talked about this last night, too. And we agreed that we had the right to know about each other's past experiences, or lack thereof.


----------



## Anon Pink

Ah Maricha ....whenever I make a generalized statement of belief, I intuitively add *except Maricha* in my mind.


----------



## alexm

RoseAglow said:


> I have a different read of the thread. I interpreted as a poll to see how many women have been asked to do things like specify the number, the positions, and the names of all the men they have slept with.
> 
> Quite a number of posters, male and female, had never heard of this line of questioning prior to TAM.
> 
> For me personally, I would view someone who wanted that kind of detail as insecure, but as evidenced by the thread, mileage varies.


I agree with this. I have also never heard of this line of questioning before, and it baffles me.

The general number (and I mean general) is one thing. I actually think it's relatively important. The details, positions, names, etc? Why???

Beating a dead horse, for sure, but the GENERAL number is relevent, for most of the reasons others have already said.

Sexual compatibility is a HUGE sticking point in so many threads on TAM. There are those of us who see the importance of figuring out compatibility long before things get serious, rather than figuring it out as we go along.

That said, it is absolutely not a clear indicator if things will work out or not. My ex wife and I had about the same experience, at least numbers-wise. If memory serves, she had had 3 partners, only one was a relationship. The other 2 were casual. Add to that a handful of "fooling around/oral" experiences. I had a LTR plus 2 casual experiences, and nothing else. Our numbers more or less "matched up". She volunteered this information, I did not ask.

At the end of the day, she had a few affairs, and eventually left me for somebody else. So our matched numbers/experience meant diddly-squat.

My current wife has 4 or 5 times the experience I do (guesstimate). Yet I feel "safer" with her. Perhaps it's the experience she's had that makes me feel she's not looking for more.

Ironic.

Yet, if I ever found myself single again, I'd still prefer to get a rough idea of values and importance on sex with a prospective new partner.


----------



## ConanHub

tripad said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It implies value system which may not be the same as mine .
> 
> or how they view sexcapades even during marriage .
> 
> n I am one who believes that a person's value system is ingrained and doesn't change .


Just curious. Do you think someone can start out extremely promiscuous and wild and.later find the lifestyle distasteful and change their views to be more conservative?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## T&T

To answer the original question, I'm of the opinion that gentlemen don't ask. It would seem quite rude to me.


----------



## tripad

ConanHub said:


> Just curious. Do you think someone can start out extremely promiscuous and wild and.later find the lifestyle distasteful and change their views to be more conservative?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it is possible .

something in that person's life may have changed his value system , sometimes for better , sometimes for worse .

I have seen nice , good girls who went wild , n sleep with anyone with a d***.

I have known ex drug addicts in churches who has reformed and married cute church girls , and they became church workers .

value systems shifted due to life experiences .


----------



## *LittleDeer*

ConanHub said:


> Just curious. Do you think someone can start out extremely promiscuous and wild and.later find the lifestyle distasteful and change their views to be more conservative?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you aren't asking me, however...
Doesn't everyone grow and change in life. I know I am not the same person I was when I was say 21.

I have known some very openly sexual women, which is refreshing. And one of them in particular has no regrets about her past, I wouldn't say she's not more conservative just more discerning. 
She still loves sex.


----------



## ConanHub

tripad said:


> I think it is possible .
> 
> something in that person's life may have changed his value system , sometimes for better , sometimes for worse .
> 
> I have seen nice , good girls who went wild , n sleep with anyone with a d***.
> 
> I have known ex drug addicts in churches who has reformed and married cute church girls , and they became church workers .
> 
> value systems shifted due to life experiences .


I agree. Happened here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

Anon Pink said:


> The truth is, those who feel their spouse's premarriage experience reflects on them in any way what so ever, unless it's some dude who prayed the gay away  are assuming ownership that doesn't belong to them.
> 
> Since I posted that, I thought of this question from the POV of the 20 year old planning her wedding.
> 
> *Finding out my husband to be had slept with half the playboy bunnies in Hugh Hefner's mansion WOULD matter to me because I would feel totally inadaquate next to his experience. I would probanly cancel the wedding because I know in my heart I could never "stack up" to that kind of experience and that his life with me would be so mundane he'd leave me within a year.*
> 
> I don't buy the "values sharing" point at all. You can cloak it however you want but the bottom line is that it is insecurity that what you offer would not compete with what your spouse has had. And that's okay. It really is okay. Just be honest about it.




My wife has expressed some similar insecurities about my past simply from seeing my ex wife in person and pictures of other women I have socialized with, pictures my wife went out of her way to see due to her own curiosity. Yes, I have only had sex with a total of three women, but was active with several others. As far as the other women, it's a similar scenario to what you laid out above AP.

I guess I have just not seen the interrogation style that is being suggested here. I know that my name is often associated with the RJ threads that pop up here, mainly because of my own struggles with it...but take my situation with my wife and her step son...when that came out, what the hell should I have done? Grin and nod and never think of it again as he's walking around the house in nothing but boxers?


----------



## Married but Happy

I suppose you could make a case based on values, but values earlier in life may have changed because of past experiences (such as promiscuity, etc.), and be compatible now. Using past actions and values as a guide could be - at best - misleading, so what truly matters are current values and compatibility.

Large differences in skill - or a jaded attitude in particular - due to past experiences may be valid concerns, so some general information may not be a bad thing to share if you notice such discrepancies. Still, skill differences can be fixed - a jaded attitude is harder (but not impossible) to fix.


----------



## tripad

TBH despite my opinion that I would like to know the number to rule out promiscuous sexual behavior , so far , I have never been the one who asked that question .

so far , the men are the ones who asked me first .

Hmmmmm......

so according to all these posts here , are the men so far all insecure then ??????

Hmmmmm....... when this guy who seemed interested in me asked , how should I reply ??????


----------



## ConanHub

*LittleDeer* said:


> I know you aren't asking me, however...
> Doesn't everyone grow and change in life. I know I am not the same person I was when I was say 21.
> 
> I have known some very openly sexual women, which is refreshing. And one of them in particular has no regrets about her past, I wouldn't say she's not more conservative just more discerning.
> She still loves sex.


I'm still a HD freak, I just take it out on Mrs. Conan. My views changed towards being far more conservative sexually when I met my wife. I do regret my.promiscuity. Not every experience but the value system I had that allowed me to have sex with as many women as I did. I also would not have sex with anyone I cared about too much. It was all recreation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tripad

ConanHub said:


> I agree. Happened here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hi conan 
finally we agree on something 


you are the same guy fooling ard n teasing me in my other thread right and I ask you to shoo off right ?

hello there dear


----------



## Thundarr

A woman with a deer in the headlights look setting in a musky dark interogation room with electrodes stuck to her head where the guy she's gone on one date with sets across the table reading detector results as he's asking her questions with a you can't lie to me stare.

In a healthy relationship conversations just happen and there's ample opportunity to talk about likes and dislikes and regrets and hopes and values. For example my wife and I learned that neither of us were into swinging or orgies or pimping ourselves out. We learned that we'd both been with slightly more than a handful of people and neither of us were all that proud about it. By the literal definition I suppose that can be labled as insecure because we were infact looking for security that we felt the same way about each other and wanted the same things. Insecurity has a negative sound to it because we use it talking about people who are not secure in themselves. Well it's not always negative. In this case it's just common sense and the only alternative is blatent arrogance that we're so awesome that it doesn't matter what the other thinks.


----------



## ConanHub

tripad said:


> hi conan
> finally we agree on something
> 
> 
> you are the same guy fooling ard n teasing me in my other thread right and I ask you to shoo off right ?
> 
> hello there dear


I'll have to check to make sure my other personality wasn't harassing you. I actually don't recall teasing you but I better check to make sure. &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

ConanHub said:


> Just curious. Do you think someone can start out extremely promiscuous and wild and.later find the lifestyle distasteful and change their views to be more conservative?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a fact. Just one that some don't realize because they haven't seen it or lived it.


----------



## tripad

tripad said:


> hi conan
> finally we agree on something
> 
> 
> you are the same guy fooling ard n teasing me in my other thread right and I ask you to shoo off right ?
> 
> hello there dear


oops
ran back n check
wrong guy


----------



## Thundarr

tripad said:


> oops
> ran back n check
> wrong guy


Well that's the whole theme of this thread. So you must tell us who it was and how many more there were like him?


----------



## ConanHub

Thundarr said:


> Well that's the whole theme of this thread. So you must tell us who it was and how many more there were like him?


LOL!! &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tripad

Thundarr said:


> Well that's the whole theme of this thread. So you must tell us who it was and how many more there were like him?


no no 

that guy tease n apologized that it was for light hearted teasing n its fine after that 

here i got the wrong guy . apologies , conanhub


----------



## ConanHub

tripad said:


> no no
> 
> that guy tease n apologized that it was for light hearted teasing n its fine after that
> 
> here i got the wrong guy . apologies , conanhub


I got a smile from it. No problem. I have certainly made my fair share of goofs. &#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tripad

but seriously men's opinion wanted

if i m asked that question as i should soon start dateing , although I wonder where I would get a man to date :scratchhead::scratchhead:I m busy working n looking after my kids . I m attractive but no opportunity to meet men . I teach . meet a lot of boys haha .

if i m asked by the guy who seemed interested in me .

how should i answer ?

i have a few bf so that means a few in numbers. that answer is good ?


----------



## samyeagar

tripad said:


> but seriously men's opinion wanted
> 
> if i m asked that question as i should soon start dateing , although I wonder where I would get a man to date :scratchhead::scratchhead:I m busy working n looking after my kids . I m attractive but no opportunity to meet men . I teach . meet a lot of boys haha .
> 
> if i m asked by the guy who seemed interested in me .
> 
> how should i answer ?
> 
> i have a few bf so that means a few in numbers. that answer is good ?


Go with your gut. If you feeling like answering, fine, if not fine. This is one of those things that by even asking how you should answer if asked is essentially asking how to manipulate the situation. One of the feelings many of us men have on this subject is that on some level, we were manipulated.


----------



## ConanHub

tripad said:


> but seriously men's opinion wanted
> 
> if i m asked that question as i should soon start dateing , although I wonder where I would get a man to date :scratchhead::scratchhead:I m busy working n looking after my kids . I m attractive but no opportunity to meet men . I teach . meet a lot of boys haha .
> 
> if i m asked by the guy who seemed interested in me .
> 
> how should i answer ?
> 
> i have a few bf so that means a few in numbers. that answer is good ?


Unless you two are very serious, I would make him wait or make him tell you first. You sound very normal and if it were me, I would be impressed with a woman that is responsible for her children. I would mostly wonder why it didn't work with your ex husband and what your relationship is like with him now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> Well, I did tell Ele to go ahead and call me insecure, and it seems my feelings on the subject would make me insecure in your eyes as well. And that's ok. I am used to being on the outside on many subjects. However, I don't see it that way. In my opinion, I would not be a good match with anyone who ever viewed sex in that "sowing his oats" kind of thing. That IS a values sharing sort of thing. For me, it's not about "stacking up". It is about how both of us view sex, both past and present. I was fortunate that my husband and I share the same views on the subject.
> 
> And we disagree on the first point, as well. My husband and I actually talked about this last night, too. And we agreed that we had the right to know about each other's past experiences, or lack thereof.


I'm in agreement with you . If some women want to call me insecure cause the number of previous sexual partners is important information to me....have at it. Kinda doubt they would be the type I would be dating then anyway. As equally important to me as that information it is the ability to be able to share all information in the formation of a realtionship that matters to me. I would never be in a realtionship where certain subjects are just too taboo to discuss.

I do love the hypocrisy of this though. So we have thread after thread about how it's horribe to slvtshame a woman so I guess now we can add value shaming to the list of Tam terms. Least this one isn't geneder bias I guess :smthumbup:


----------



## Observer

tripad said:


> TBH despite my opinion that I would like to know the number to rule out promiscuous sexual behavior , so far , I have never been the one who asked that question .
> 
> so far , the men are the ones who asked me first .
> 
> Hmmmmm......
> 
> so according to all these posts here , are the men so far all insecure then ??????
> 
> Hmmmmm....... when this guy who seemed interested in me asked , how should I reply ??????


I don't think it makes them insecure, it may just be a curiosity. Reply how you feel confortable with. If the number is 5, just say, "I can count on one hand" and leave it at that. If you are uncomfortable, just say, "I don't think it's wise to talk about past relationships as that just leads to jealousy. I don't care about that past, I care about the future."


----------



## Wolf1974

tripad said:


> but seriously men's opinion wanted
> 
> if i m asked that question as i should soon start dateing , although I wonder where I would get a man to date :scratchhead::scratchhead:I m busy working n looking after my kids . I m attractive but no opportunity to meet men . I teach . meet a lot of boys haha .
> 
> if i m asked by the guy who seemed interested in me .
> 
> how should i answer ?
> 
> i have a few bf so that means a few in numbers. that answer is good ?


Just tell the truth. If they freak then least you know early on. And if they don't well least you know that too.

Shoudnt be first date information anyway.


----------



## I Don't Know

Either be as honest as you can remember or tell him you don't discuss it. Whichever you're comfortable with. Saying it's not something you talk about IS a valid answer. It's up to him to decide from there, but you should IMO give him the information to decide. Just be honest and be yourself.

From the prospective of a guy that was lied to about this, I'd much rather hear "I don't discuss my past" than some random number pulled out of thin air.


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> Either be as honest as you can remember or tell him you don't discuss it. Whichever you're comfortable with. Saying it's not something you talk about IS a valid answer. It's up to him to decide from there, but you should IMO give him the information to decide. Just be honest and be yourself.
> 
> *From the prospective of a guy that was lied to about this, I'd much rather hear "I don't discuss my past" than some random number pulled out of thin air*.


The double edged sword in this is that if it is a clear sidestep of the question, and then things trickle out over time, that's not good either.


----------



## I Don't Know

samyeagar said:


> The double edged sword in this is that if it is a clear sidestep of the question, and then things trickle out over time, that's not good either.


True. I was going to add something about:

If you say "I don't talk about it" make sure you stick to that and make sure it's not going to come up in some other way as best you can.

But it was getting a bit wordy.


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> True. I was going to add something about:
> 
> *If you say "I don't talk about it" make sure you stick to that* and make sure it's not going to come up in some other way as best you can.
> 
> But it was getting a bit wordy.


And that includes girl talk with friends on facebook...


----------



## tripad

ok ok

agree not first few date information 

only when serious relationship

yes i m normal , maybe traditional , though i look attractive enough n look like in mid 30s

4 is not a bad number for a divorced woman of mid 40s with 2 kids . no man after divorce , yet 

just worried ive a higher number than him . though unlikely , he is an attractive brit too .


----------



## Thundarr

tripad said:


> 4 is not a bad number for a divorced woman of mid 40s with 2 kids . no man after divorce , yet


Whether it's 4, 40, or 400, you still want a guy who will love you and not care what the number is. Just don't lie about it is all. Numbers are in the past but a lie is in the present.


----------



## tripad

ConanHub said:


> Unless you two are very serious, I would make him wait or make him tell you first. You sound very normal and if it were me, I would be impressed with a woman that is responsible for her children. I would mostly wonder why it didn't work with your ex husband and what your relationship is like with him now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


to summarise , ex n his family splurge and he indulges himself n them till he is in debt , while leaving me to feed my household which includes ex . He begged me to bail his debt and i wanted nothing to do with his family which he agreed . later , his family called n tugged at his heart string and my ex broke my heart telling me he rather have his parents n sisters than to have me n children . I died inside n filed for divorce . told him he should have said that before he begged me to bail him off his debts .

the relationship now ? he played the guilt , gifts , blame , threat etc , etc game with me . I m going through with the divorce , not changing my mind . His debts and his family spending habits will never be my prolems again . My counselor said I have to think of myself and my children .

Oh yes he hits me when I ask for financial transparency and responsibility , last straw was when he hits me in front of my children .

now , he is bloody pissed . said I ruined him blah blah blah . accused me of affairs , blah blah blah . refused to talk to me wrt children which i don't care anymore . he's not providing financial support even though court ordered .

I thank God I am smart enough to earn a decent living to feed my kids n myself plus a roof over our heads and my children are thankful to have me . having read the other post here abt other women in a less financial able position , I count myself lucky . My lawyer said I m indeed blessed to have the looks too .


----------



## tripad

Thundarr said:


> Whether it's 4, 40, or 400, you still want a guy who will love you and not care what the number is. Just don't lie about it is all. Numbers are in the past but a lie is in the present.


agreed 

I will tell , right time , right guy .

never want history or lies to catch up with me .

anyway , i think he would be ok , he is a sweetie so far , as a friend supportive and concern , without trying to get anything out of it . gentlemanly .


----------



## ConanHub

tripad said:


> to summarise , ex n his family splurge and he indulges himself n them till he is in debt , while leaving me to feed my household which includes ex . He begged me to bail his debt and i wanted nothing to do with his family which he agreed . later , his family called n tugged at his heart string and my ex broke my heart telling me he rather have his parents n sisters than to have me n children . I died inside n filed for divorce . told him he should have said that before he begged me to bail him off his debts .
> 
> the relationship now ? he played the guilt , gifts , blame , etc , etc game with me . I m going through the divorce . His debts and his family spending habits will never be my prolems again . My counselor said I have to think of myself and my children .
> 
> Oh yes he hits me when I ask for financial transparency and responsibility , last straw was when he hits me in front of my children .
> 
> now , he is bloody pissed . said I ruined him blah blah blah . accused me of affairs , blah blah blah . refused to talk to me wrt children which i don't care anymore . he's not providing financial support even though court ordered .
> 
> I thank God I am smart enough to earn a decent living to feed my kids n myself plus a house . having read the other post here abt other women in a less financial able position , I count myself lucky . My lawyer said I m indeed blessed to have the looks too .


Very sorry to hear that but glad you are getting away. I hope he grows up or doesn't trouble you further.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

Anon Pink said:


> Since I posted that, I thought of this question from the POV of the 20 year old planning her wedding.


Age and experience have a lot to do with the topic. People want to be compatible, which _generally_ means a common or similar background.



Anon Pink said:


> Finding out my husband to be had slept with half the playboy bunnies in Hugh Hefner's mansion WOULD matter to me because I would feel totally inadaquate next to his experience. I would probanly cancel the wedding because I know in my heart I could never "stack up" to that kind of experience and that his life with me would be so mundane he'd leave me within a year.


Or, let's say your view of sex was it is a special and private thing which you only share with men you are in a very close romantic relationship. Your husband to be demonstrated via his behavior that he has a very different (but not wrong, worse, or better) view of sex. This indicates a fundamental difference about a very important subject. Which may, or may not, disqualify him based on your belief system.



Anon Pink said:


> I don't buy the "values sharing" point at all. You can cloak it however you want but the bottom line is that it is insecurity that what you offer would not compete with what your spouse has had. And that's okay. It really is okay. Just be honest about it.


Again I think this relates to age in many cases. As a virgin 18 yr old, it was a bit intimidating when I started dating my now wife because she had more experience than I. In my mid 50's now, if I were to date again I would not expect a virgin or even close to it. But I would still be looking for a compatible view of sex and relationships in a woman, which would be best indicated by her life experiences.


----------



## tripad

ConanHub said:


> Very sorry to hear that but glad you are getting away. I hope he grows up or doesn't trouble you further.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks .
but i m fine now .
i hope he grows up so my children will have a better father .


----------



## alexm

Nobody asked me, but this is my definitive thoughts of this general subject (with room to move, so I guess it's not THAT definitive).

Number means very little. Context does. If a woman I am romantically interested in has had 25 partners, then okay. What was the context? 25 relationships of 3 months or more? Then that begs the question, why all the failed relationships? Which turns it into a relationship issue, not a sexual one. Different can of worms.

Is it 25 partners and 5 were relationships, the rest were hook ups/ONS/FWB? Then perhaps it's a sexual thing, which is not compatible with ME and my values on the subject. If it's not a sexual thing, then it's a self-esteem thing, most likely (ie. using sex to feel wanted/god about ones self). This again does not match up with MY values.

My personal values in regards to sex and sexuality can be ripped apart by either side in this debate, no doubt, but they are MY values.

For example, I do not believe that sex is something so special to only be shared with somebody you are in love with, or necessarily committed to, or have a future with. However, I also do not believe sex is something so unimportant to be had with anybody that smiles at you.


----------



## JCD

ConanHub said:


> Just curious. Do you think someone can start out extremely promiscuous and wild and.later find the lifestyle distasteful and change their views to be more conservative?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was the basis of one of the 'outrageously insecure' men that Ele was indirectly referencing.

The woman had been very wild. Like...multiples, not knowing names, turned a few tricks etc. She was, IIRC, perhaps molested a bit and was in a very bad place mentally.

BUT...nothing was off the table with her THEN.

She changed her ways, met her husband and became a Born Again Virgin. Plain Vanilla Girl! Maybe a hummer and a few positions but she wasn't going to do that anymore.

Hubby found out about her past somehow and how she was treating absolute dirt bags like they were kings sexually.

Since he was a trifle dissatisfied with their sex life, he asked the obvious question: "If you love me MORE, why are you giving me LESS?"

Horrible situation. For her, doing those things may have been triggering incidents and had a stigma of shame to them.

For him, it was an indication that he wasn't considered a lover: he was a 'safe zone' where it wasn't really necessary to consider his hurt feelings over the issue. Her feelings trumped his feelings 100%. Can you feel the love?

I can see both sides.


----------



## GusPolinski

alexm said:


> Nobody asked me, but this is my definitive thoughts of this general subject (with room to move, so I guess it's not THAT definitive).
> 
> Number means very little. Context does. If a woman I am romantically interested in has had 25 partners, then okay. What was the context? 25 relationships of 3 months or more? Then that begs the question, why all the failed relationships? Which turns it into a relationship issue, not a sexual one. Different can of worms.
> 
> Is it 25 partners and 5 were relationships, the rest were hook ups/ONS/FWB? Then perhaps it's a sexual thing, which is not compatible with ME and my values on the subject. If it's not a sexual thing, then it's a self-esteem thing, most likely (ie. using sex to feel wanted/god about ones self). This again does not match up with MY values.
> 
> My personal values in regards to sex and sexuality can be ripped apart by either side in this debate, no doubt, but they are MY values.
> 
> For example, I do not believe that sex is something so special to only be shared with somebody you are in love with, or necessarily committed to, or have a future with. However, I also do not believe sex is something so unimportant to be had with anybody that smiles at you.


^This^ comes closer to any other post that I've seen in this or any other thread to representing my own values regarding sex. I like it.

Bravo, alex.


----------



## ConanHub

JCD said:


> That was the basis of one of the 'outrageously insecure' men that Ele was indirectly referencing.
> 
> The woman had been very wild. Like...multiples, not knowing names, turned a few tricks etc. She was, IIRC, perhaps molested a bit and was in a very bad place mentally.
> 
> BUT...nothing was off the table with her THEN.
> 
> She changed her ways, met her husband and became a Born Again Virgin. Plain Vanilla Girl! Maybe a hummer and a few positions but she wasn't going to do that anymore.
> 
> Hubby found out about her past somehow and how she was treating absolute dirt bags like they were kings sexually.
> 
> Since he was a trifle dissatisfied with their sex life, he asked the obvious question: "If you love me MORE, why are you giving me LESS?"
> 
> Horrible situation. For her, doing those things may have been triggering incidents and had a stigma of shame to them.
> 
> For him, it was an indication that he wasn't considered a lover: he was a 'safe zone' where it wasn't really necessary to consider his hurt feelings over the issue. Her feelings trumped his feelings 100%. Can you feel the love?
> 
> I can see both sides.


I think I might have been too close on that one. I was seeing the side of the woman. I get the sexual frustrations of the husband though now that my head is more clear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anonymous07

Thor said:


> People want to be compatible, which _generally_ means a common or similar background.
> 
> Or, let's say your view of sex was it is a special and private thing which you only share with men you are in a very close romantic relationship. Your husband to be demonstrated via his behavior that he has a very different (but not wrong, worse, or better) view of sex. This indicates a fundamental difference about a very important subject. Which may, or may not, disqualify him based on your belief system.


A lot of it comes down to compatibility in regards to values. If my husband had multiple one night stands, I would not be with him. My views on sex are the same as stated above, something special shared between two people in a romantic relationship. I would not find myself compatible with a man who thought it was ok to "sow his wild oats" and sleep with every woman he ever went on a date with. Sex, to me, has a big emotional part beyond just the physical act, so it's not something I would ever do with many different men. Luckily, my husband shares the same values I do. We know each other's pasts and neither of us were afraid to share that information. 

I'm honestly a little surprised at how this thread has gone. There are women who want to not be judged for their sexual pasts, yet judge others for asking about it and say they're insecure(?). I didn't view the questions as an interrogation, more of just looking into who that person is. If those questions are not something a person is comfortable answering, they don't have to answer them and should move on to find someone who is more compatible with them. I have no issue talking about my past. When I was questioned for being a virgin and called a prude, I knew we weren't compatible and moved on.


----------



## norajane

Anonymous07 said:


> I'm honestly a little surprised at how this thread has gone. There are women who want to not be judged for their sexual pasts, yet judge others for asking about it and say they're insecure(?). I didn't view the questions as an interrogation, more of just looking into who that person is. If those questions are not something a person is comfortable answering, they don't have to answer them and should move on to find someone who is more compatible with them. I have no issue talking about my past. When I was questioned for being a virgin and called a prude, I knew we weren't compatible and moved on.


I think there's a difference between questions and interrogations. Personally, if someone wanted me to catalog exact positions and provide names and dossiers on my exes, I would put that in the insecure about something category, and would be very cautious of engaging with them mostly because of what I have seen on this board of guys wanting to know exact details and then burning up inside because they didn't "get what some other guy got" from me. THAT attitude is a no-go - absolutely cannot handle that sort of attitude because it would leave me in the position where the only resolution would be doing something I don't choose to do in order to appease his feelings of being cheated out of something he thinks he "deserves" or should "rightfully be his."

And, personally, I don't consider insecurity an insult. All of us are insecure about something or other at one time or another. By expressing them and talking about them, often some of those insecurities can go away either through reassurance or personal growth over time. By pretending they don't exist, it just creates problems and distance.


----------



## Anonymous07

norajane said:


> I think there's a difference between questions and interrogations. Personally, if someone wanted me to catalog exact positions and provide names and dossiers on my exes, I would put that in the insecure about something category, and would be very cautious of engaging with them mostly because of what I have seen on this board of guys wanting to know exact details and then burning up inside because they didn't "get what some other guy got" from me. THAT attitude is a no-go - absolutely cannot handle that sort of attitude because it would leave me in the position where the only resolution would be doing something I don't choose to do in order to appease his feelings of being cheated out of something he thinks he "deserves" or should "rightfully be his."
> 
> And, personally, I don't consider insecurity an insult. All of us are insecure about something or other at one time or another. By expressing them and talking about them, often some of those insecurities can go away either through reassurance or personal growth over time. By pretending they don't exist, it just creates problems and distance.


If your date starts interrogating you, then I'd call them crazy before saying they are insecure. Obviously you wouldn't be compatible with the person if they're getting CIA on you. 

I didn't view the questions as an interrogation, more just curiosity. Wanting to know positions seemed very weird to me, but I didn't see an issue with wanting to know the number or names of past "lovers". I asked for some names because I wanted to know if we would run into them again. We were both open about everything. It wasn't an issue for me and wasn't one for him.


----------



## Maricha75

Anonymous07 said:


> If your date starts interrogating you, then I'd call them crazy before saying they are insecure. Obviously you wouldn't be compatible with the person if they're getting CIA on you.
> 
> I didn't view the questions as an interrogation, more just curiosity. Wanting to know positions seemed very weird to me, but I didn't see an issue with wanting to know the number or names of past "lovers". I asked for some names because I wanted to know if we would run into them again. We were both open about everything. It wasn't an issue for me and wasn't one for him.


Exactly! In my case, it was very limited. My husband has done WAY more with me than either boyfriend before him. Still, I would have had no problem telling him what I had done, and whether it was something I was willing to try again or if it was off the table.

As far as names, I gave that willingly. I had no reason to hide it from him. In fact, had I not been up front in the first place, one could EASILY have come back to bite me in the @$$.... He's my cousin's husband. He was my first (and vice versa), at age 15. My cousin knows, as do a few others in our family (my sisters, her sister, and my mother did).

But, I think it has been established that I am a strange one anyway.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> I'm in agreement with you . If some women want to call me insecure cause the number of previous sexual partners is important information to me....have at it. Kinda doubt they would be the type I would be dating then anyway. As equally important to me as that information it is the ability to be able to share all information in the formation of a realtionship that matters to me. I would never be in a realtionship where certain subjects are just too taboo to discuss.
> 
> I do love the hypocrisy of this though. So we have thread after thread about how it's horribe to slvtshame a woman so I guess now we can add value shaming to the list of Tam terms. Least this one isn't geneder bias I guess :smthumbup:


You can all add myself and Husband to the list of* INSECURE ONES* too.. I guess I PREFER INSECURE MEN then.. Oh hell .. I've already announced I am into Betas... why not take it a step further.. ha ha

And ya know what kicks a** about my Husband.. . he didn't have no experience with women..(oh he wasn't crying about it - took it in stride, he was looking for something REAL not just pleasure).... 2 gf's previously dumped him.. but he never tried to PUFF himself up, act like he was "all that" -- like so many men do (isn't this charade born from feeling inadequate / insecure somehow)........HE knew who he was.... what he had to offer ....HE LIKED HIMSELF (even if he wasn't Popular)... and he walked in it before me.. genuinely putting his heart out there...he's told me had I walked away.. I'd have had to come after him.. his attitude was ..."take me as I am.. this is ME"... 

*Is this not the challenge for all of us.. is not real security born from This attitude?? ... just BEING ourselves .. without game...when we meet someone.. Enjoying the Back & forth , not trying to hide where we've come from -but allowing the other in...willingly... if we can't feel they can be trusted with our whole story.. why would we want to be with them?? * 

If a couple are both GOOD / happy with their pleasure seeking pasts, or at least in sync with it (Personal & wife comes to mind)......just be REAL ....they both praise that about each other & sexually PREFER someone who THINKS like them .. awesome match - compatible from the get go!!...that's one example.. 

Then there's ConanHub & wife.. a little different story here.. not so proud of the past but they gave the TRUTH non the less.... vulnerably, HUMBLY...and this was a profound part of their connection ......how you described it in that one post.. how she GRABBED your soul ...where no other woman could... how sad had they kept these things from each other.. as they were each other's HELP and solace, where few others could DEEPLY understand where they have been... am I wrong Conanhub???

Or a couple like myself & H.. each others 1sts... it was never primarily pleasure seeking for us... my H told me he didn't even THINK of me *that way* when we met. ...which kinda took me a back .. like heck...wasn't I sexy enough??- I asked him...... He just REALLY wanted to get to KNOW ME.. .. we cared to build the emotional 1st.. we, too were on the same page .... 

Am I so far off.. why would ANY of us even want to be with another who can't accept who we are, where we have been...that what we have experienced helped shape us to who are are today ..I see many SAY this line .. but then hide behind it... I don't get that.. Being strong in who we are, knowing what we want.. and what WE will accept is.. laying his out there... to allow the chips to fall where they may, judgment or acceptance / compatibility.. I see them as the more SECURE... for taking this risk *for Love, *...*for understanding*... *for acceptance.* 

And if there is ANY feeling of "interrogation "...if this is one's deal breaker.. let them know this is unacceptable -if you feel strongly ....there won't be another date then......you WALK ... or let them walk....I would be more pleased with someone who wanted to get to know ALL of me.. if I felt he looked down on me after I spoke (and that happens too with conservative views -don't kid yourself!)...after I've opened up & shared.....that would be the end, none of us want looked down upon... plenty of fish in the sea...who may have a similar background and is seeking someone just like you...


----------



## TiggyBlue

To be fair EleGirl never implied anyone who simply asked these questions was insecure.


----------



## ConanHub

TiggyBlue said:


> To be fair EleGirl never implied anyone who simply asked these questions was insecure.


Yeah. Just seems curious about the topic. Me too. I hadn't heard much about it before coming to TAM either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

TiggyBlue said:


> To be fair EleGirl never implied anyone who simply asked these questions was insecure.


A number of others have thrown out the "insecurity" label ... I am referring to such posts... members of both sexes can only see this tunnel vision towards some of us who would care, or ask.... 

Depending...I see such people more caring about the deepest of intimacies where others see nothing but weakness & comparing d**ks & such..... it's always expected by the way.. I'd think the sky fell if TAMers suddenly stopped insulting in this manner... 

I simply don't agree it's always true....to not take one's worldview of how they feel about love & sex is a grave grave misunderstanding to some of us... and what sort of partner we want to be with.


----------



## Thundarr

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. Just seems curious about the topic. Me too. I hadn't heard much about it before coming to TAM either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The way it sounds on a forum doesn't reflect the reality of communication and getting to know one another. Of all the men and women who say this mattered and hence they asked a few question. I bet many of their (our) spouses don't remember feeling judged or even asked because it wasn't that big of a deal. I have to think hard to even remember if my wife asked.


----------



## Wolf1974

Thundarr said:


> The way it sounds on a forum doesn't reflect the reality of communication and getting to know one another. Of all the men and women who say this mattered and hence they asked a few question. I bet many of their (our) spouses don't remember feeling judged or even asked because it wasn't that big of a deal. I have to think hard to even remember if my wife asked.


Exactly! With the exception of my x wife who I already knew this information, I asked every sexual partner I ever had their number.....some of thier fantasies and dislikes and so on. Not once did I have a woman get so offended she bolted from my couch butt hurt that I was asking, In reality they asked me the same questions back and I happily answered. It's never the problem in RL it seems to be here in TaM world


----------



## TiggyBlue

SimplyAmorous said:


> A number of others have thrown out the "insecurity" label ... I am referring to such posts... members of both sexes can only see this tunnel vision towards some of us who would care, or ask....


I meant more the tone of the thread turned into being more about implying this thread was indirectly calling anyone who asked the questions she posted as insecure a few pages in (I can see how it seemed like I was addressing your post though), I don't think that was EleGirl's intention.


----------



## GusPolinski

TiggyBlue said:


> To be fair EleGirl never implied anyone who simply asked these questions was insecure.


What I recall her saying is that a number of women w/ whom she'd spoken regarding the topic indicated a certain unease -- even fear -- at the prospect of being asked. Fair enough, I suppose... but why?

It should be fine to ask questions in order to determine long-term compatibility. And it's obviously fine to expect that a certain degree of similarity will exist in terms of numbers, etc... just so long as the same set of standards is being equally applied across the board.

My wife and I had these discussions very early in our relationship... I'm not exactly sure when, but it was probably right around the time that we started having sex. We both grew up in the same small town, and we both wanted to know whether or not there were any awkward interactions w/ any mutual friends in our near future.

In fact, she dated one of my buddies before she and I started dating. I remember being both amused and impressed at watching her slap his hands away as he tried again and again to deploy his lame-ass cheesy moves.

And I was even more impressed when she dumped him.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Well it started with these 2....on page 1...



*LittleDeer* said:


> *Yes I've been asked, but I think it was because of insecurity on their part*.





arbitrator said:


> As a man, I don't really think that it is any of my damned business to ask a woman that I'm seeing, any of those questions! Just as it is not any of her damned business to ask me the very same questions!
> 
> *It just speaks to nothing more than blatant insecurity on the "askers" part!*


Now I gotta say..I am a bit surprised by Arb's response here... wouldn't He have been MUCH BETTER off caring to learn *everything* he could about his EX ....who caused him an awful lot of pain.. cheating on him.. Was he the 1st man she cheated on? 

But OK... to each their own. Unfortunately I can't imagine much of anyone admitting to a cheating though, they'd hide that like the plague.


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well it started with these 2....on page 1...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I gotta say..I am a bit surprised by Arb's response here... wouldn't He have been MUCH BETTER off caring to learn *everything* he could about his EX ....who caused him an awful lot of pain.. cheating on him.. Was he the 1st man she cheated on?
> 
> But OK... to each their own. Unfortunately I can't imagine much of anyone admitting to a *cheating* though, they'd hide that like the plague.


I always ask this question before I even meet them. Why waste thier time and mine. You would be amazed the number of people who will admit to it.

It generally goes. 

Me........have you ever cheated on anyone
Them.......yes....butt.....and the out comes the story. They all have one and seem all to eager to share. I thought it would be the hardest thing to talk about / bring up. Turned out to be one of the easiest. Who knew :scratchhead:


----------



## GusPolinski

Wolf1974 said:


> I always ask this question before I even meet them. Why waste thier time and mine. You would be amazed the number of people who will admit to it.
> 
> It generally goes.
> 
> Me........have you ever cheated on anyone
> Them.......yes....butt.....and the out comes the story. They all have one and seem all to eager to share. I thought it would be the hardest thing to talk about / bring up. Turned out to be one of the easiest. Who knew :scratchhead:


Wow... really?

Hmm. Wouldn't have thought that.


----------



## JCD

TiggyBlue said:


> To be fair EleGirl never implied anyone who simply asked these questions was insecure.





EleGirl said:


> The thing is that I've seen guys here on TAM who are not young write some stuff that has led to me realizing that* there are a lot of guys out there who are like that crazy jealous guy*.





EleGirl said:


> Yes I have stated that I would not react well to being asked those questions. They are in the form of an interrogation.
> 
> It’s one thing for a couple to have conversations and disclose things as they choose. It’s another to interrogate a person and take inventory.
> 
> *And yes, I do think that if I were on a date, and he asked me those three questions, I would consider him an insecure man*.


----------



## askari

In the very early stages I would certainly ask if she enjoyed sex and if she enjoyed giving and receiving oral. If the answer was no or not really then I would end it there and then.
Whats the point of even trying to get to first base with someone you are not sexually compatible with?

Thereafter I'm not sure the numbers are really relevent. In the past (before wife) I have asked GF's questions....'was his d*ck bigger than mine?'...'No' (she's not exactly going to say 'yes' is she?!!)...
Was he better in bed than me? As above!

I've never been asked, neither have I volunteered....because there isn't much to say!


----------



## tripad

askari said:


> In the very early stages I would certainly ask if she enjoyed sex and if she enjoyed giving and receiving oral. If the answer was no or not really then I would end it there and then.
> Whats the point of even trying to get to first base with someone you are not sexually compatible with?
> 
> Thereafter I'm not sure the numbers are really relevent. In the past (before wife) I have asked GF's questions....'was his d*ck bigger than mine?'...'No' (she's not exactly going to say 'yes' is she?!!)...
> Was he better in bed than me? As above!
> 
> I've never been asked, neither have I volunteered....because there isn't much to say!


wowwww
do they know they have been drop because of oral ? 

damn oral is big deal 

I better brush up my 'öral"skills


----------



## Anonymous07

tripad said:


> wowwww
> do they know they have been drop because of oral ?
> 
> damn oral is big deal
> 
> I better brush up my 'öral"skills


tripad, you need to be yourself. Oral can be a big deal for some and not for others. Don't make yourself into someone you think others will like because it will only cause problems. You want to be with someone who loves you for who you are. Find out early in the dating game if you are compatible and if you're not, move on. I went on a lot of fist and second dates, but many didn't go past that for different reasons since we weren't compatible.


----------



## tripad

Anonymous07 said:


> tripad, you need to be yourself. Oral can be a big deal for some and not for others. Don't make yourself into someone you think others will like because it will only cause problems. You want to be with someone who loves you for who you are. Find out early in the dating game if you are compatible and if you're not, move on. I went on a lot of fist and second dates, but many didn't go past that for different reasons since we weren't compatible.




just kidding .

I know what I will do or not do .

I don't even have a date potential now , except that man friend who has been kindly giving me support n advice , without trying anything on me .

busy earning money n trying to earn more as my ex is not paying n I don't wish to downgrade my kids' standard .


----------



## Wolf1974

GusPolinski said:


> Wow... really?
> 
> Hmm. Wouldn't have thought that.


Me either. I thought like SA that it would be the hardest thing to get out of someone. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are proud that they cheated but I would say they are ever so proud of the nonsense story they convinced themselves of and seem all to proud to share that at a drop of a hat lol

And that's all after you tell them that cheating is an automatic deal breaker. It's like to them they want to be the one to prove to you they are the exception or something . Most are just very straight forward about it


----------



## samyeagar

Wolf1974 said:


> Me either. I thought like SA that it would be the hardest thing to get out of someone. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are proud that they cheated but I would say they are ever so proud of the nonsense story they convinced themselves of and seem all to proud to share that at a drop of a hat lol
> 
> And that's all after you tell them that cheating is an automatic deal breaker. It's like to them they want to be the one to prove to you they are the exception or something . *Most are just very straight forward about it*


Because most have no remorse.


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> Wow... really?
> 
> Hmm. Wouldn't have thought that.


It's the rationalization hamster effect. They're justified in what they did as far as they are concerned.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

askari said:


> *In the very early stages I would certainly ask if she enjoyed sex and if she enjoyed giving and receiving oral. If the answer was no or not really then I would end it there and then.
> Whats the point of even trying to get to first base with someone you are not sexually compatible with?*


I think people should just ask what they want to ask.. and seek to find out what IS important to them in ANY relationship (we each have different deal breakers).. if the other is taken a back by it.. then it's all for the good... better to learn early they were TOO ________ or TOO _______ to their personal disliking.. 

I also feel there is a polite/ mannerly way to bring ANY subject up.. (and who doesn't want to talk a little about SEX [email protected]#$- that's all the FUN!)....

And there is surely a fumbling "foot in the mouth" way of throwing a question TOO EARLY that will only get a :wtf: "deer in the headlights" reaction ...(or it was felt & she'll be telling all her friends on the phone the next morning what a D**k that one was)... 

Assessing one's willingness to share, or at what pace they feel comfortable ...we have our part to play in helping them feel at ease... to put ourselves out there 1st for one... start the sharing...generally we get something back/ some story swapping...that's one way...

In a short amount of time, one may get a picture if another is more the "Open book" type... or one who guards their Privacy....it's all a bouncing game..one gives a little.. the other gives a little more.. it should flow nicely... If one realizes they are met with a brick wall they are not comfortable with.. they have options as well.. no one has to rude... 

I have a perspective the *more talk* & *depth* the [email protected]# (how many people end up marrying those they feel DUPED them...because they didn't take that time, missed those







's ).....

What a couple learns in this vital process...that "intellectual foreplay"... this will bring to light things that shouldn't be missed...that NEED more clarification... all's fair in love, incompatibility and moving on to greener pastures...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> Me either. I thought like SA that it would be the hardest thing to get out of someone. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are proud that they cheated but I would say they are ever so proud of the nonsense story they convinced themselves of and seem all to proud to share that at a drop of a hat lol
> 
> And that's all after you tell them that cheating is an automatic deal breaker. It's like to them they want to be the one to prove to you they are the exception or something . Most are just very straight forward about it


I have another perspective on this.. I guess I see people in camps... the "rationalization hamster" seeking sympathy with a new date, while throwing an ex under the bus in a slaughtering way -yet He or she was "perfect" (of course!)....while you are wanting to roll your eyes all through the date ....




























to the sky!

*OR* (much less likely)... someone who may really regret , knowing it was wrong....and if so, they would go INTO THIS to explain themselves, the guilt, shame, even embarrassment -read body language... but stayed truthful - just because.. they are a new person.. and lying is unacceptable. 

I guess I am one who appreciates HONESTY to such a high degree in another (as I feel  Billy Joels Honesty  is pretty much the reality when we meet others...too many play games & hide.....I guess I don't have a whole lot of faith in mankind, do I ! 

So someone coming forth with THAT BOMB, when asked.....I don't know.. I'd have to rule out the "new person" who truly learned from their actions once upon a time -but honored the question.... Someone like that would get "points" with me... over one who was too privacy prone...then they find out later..they just HID and omitted ...

I really feel this is WHY the majority have so many trust issues -because we have too many of THOSE in our pasts.


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> What I recall her saying is that a number of women w/ whom she'd spoken regarding the topic indicated a certain unease -- even fear -- at the prospect of being asked. Fair enough, I suppose... but why?


I did not say that “a number of women w/ whom she'd spoken regarding the topic indicated a certain unease -- even fear”.

I said I have never had anyone ask me those questions. I have also asked other women if any guy has ever asked them those questions. Every woman I had asked said that no, they had never been asked.

I also said something that I will try to further clarify. There have been many threads on TAM in which a man is dating or married to a woman, and the woman was honest about her sexual past, then the guy uses this info to shame her. His shaming of her often goes on for years; the entire length of the relationship.

This thread has been good as it has helped me think through this topic more. If I trust a person, I have no issue at all discussing most things. But I see no need to give any man a list of every person I’ve had sex with. For example the guy I dated when I was the Army went home to a place about 1,600 miles from here. I have not heard from him since 1980. I have no idea if he’s even still alive. What exactly would be the point of providing a list of names that included this guy? If a man insisted on such a list, he’s not the guy for me. There is something wrong with him in my way of thinking.

Now, I would tell a guy who I was in a serious relationship the names of the two men I’ve had sex with since 1985. They both live in the same city I live in. I run into them all the time. They are my 2 ex-husbands. That makes a lot of sense.

An example of a thread that was just mind blowing. A guy’s wife told him that she had sex with 10 guys. Years later in casual conversation she said that it was 11 guys. He was going nuts because the number changed. 

On another thread a guy asked his new gf after they had had been having sex for a couple of months. She said that she didn’t know. So he was upset. Many posters on TAM posted that she was obviously a slvt if she did not know the number off the top of her head.. and other pretty nasty things about her. Well she did come back a couple of days later and gave her number after thinking about it. It was lower than the guy’s number. I think she was in her 40’s and had been single for years. This is basically an ambush.. use her for sex for a while. Then get judgmental and decide if she is ‘good enough’ for him. Another WTF?

The question about what sexual positions a woman has had. There have been a few threads here in which some men have said that they want to know every sexual positions. And if she has ever done something with another guy, she has to do it with him and can NEVERE say no to it. I even asked what about something that happened during a rape or that she was forced to do in an abusive relationship. There was one guy who said that he did not care what the circumstance was… if she ever did it with anyone for any reason she had to do it with him. She could never not do it regardless of her reason for not wanting to do it. I asked this guy the questions several times in several different ways to make sure that he was not just not being clear. But no that’s what he meant. If some guy raped her anally.. then she has to do it with that poster. WTF? 

In this thread, reading the posts, I’m trying to process the kind of stuff like the above.



GusPolinski said:


> It should be fine to ask questions in order to determine long-term compatibility. And it's obviously fine to expect that a certain degree of similarity will exist in terms of numbers, etc... just so long as the same set of standards is being equally applied across the board.


If two people trust each other and want to tell all to each other, and it makes them feel closer and more intimate… more power to them.

If the number of previous sex partners is important to someone, that’s their choice. I see no issue with it. But tell the person you are with that it’s important to you. “I would not want to have a relationship with a woman how as had any one night stands or more and 2 sex partners.” Be upfront and honest. 

Don’t get into a sexual relationship with a person, then afterwards ask “how many sex partners have you had?” She says 10. Well while he enjoyed using her for sex, 10 is too many for him. So he dumps her. This is another WTF?

Also realize that a lot of people think that for the most part the number of sex partners in the past is not relevant. To other it is.


----------



## samyeagar

EleGirl said:


> I did not say that “a number of women w/ whom she'd spoken regarding the topic indicated a certain unease -- even fear”.
> 
> I said I have never had anyone ask me those questions. I have also asked other women if any guy has ever asked them those questions. Every woman I had asked said that no, they had never been asked.
> 
> I also said something that I will try to further clarify. There have been many threads on TAM in which a man is dating or married to a woman, and the woman was honest about her sexual past, then the guy uses this info to shame her. His shaming of her often goes on for years; the entire length of the relationship.
> 
> This thread has been good as it has helped me think through this topic more. If I trust a person, I have no issue at all discussing most things. But I see no need to give any man a list of every person I’ve had sex with. For example the guy I dated when I was the Army went home to a place about 1,600 miles from here. I have not heard from him since 1980. I have no idea if he’s even still alive. What exactly would be the point of providing a list of names that included this guy? If a man insisted on such a list, he’s not the guy for me. There is something wrong with him in my way of thinking.
> 
> Now, I would tell a guy who I was in a serious relationship the names of the two men I’ve had sex with since 1985. They both live in the same city I live in. I run into them all the time. They are my 2 ex-husbands. That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> An example of a thread that was just mind blowing. A guy’s wife told him that she had sex with 10 guys. Years later in casual conversation she said that it was 11 guys. He was going nuts because the number changed.
> 
> On another thread a guy asked his new gf after they had had been having sex for a couple of months. She said that she didn’t know. So he was upset. Many posters on TAM posted that she was obviously a slvt if she did not know the number off the top of her head.. and other pretty nasty things about her. Well she did come back a couple of days later and gave her number after thinking about it. It was lower than the guy’s number. I think she was in her 40’s and had been single for years. This is basically an ambush.. use her for sex for a while. Then get judgmental and decide if she is ‘good enough’ for him. Another WTF?
> 
> The question about what sexual positions a woman has had. There have been a few threads here in which some men have said that they want to know every sexual positions. And if she has ever done something with another guy, she has to do it with him and can NEVERE say no to it. I even asked what about something that happened during a rape or that she was forced to do in an abusive relationship. There was one guy who said that he did not care what the circumstance was… if she ever did it with anyone for any reason she had to do it with him. She could never not do it regardless of her reason for not wanting to do it. I asked this guy the questions several times in several different ways to make sure that he was not just not being clear. But no that’s what he meant. If some guy raped her anally.. then she has to do it with that poster. WTF?
> 
> In this thread, reading the posts, I’m trying to process the kind of stuff like the above.
> 
> 
> 
> If two people trust each other and want to tell all to each other, and it makes them feel closer and more intimate… more power to them.
> 
> If the number of previous sex partners is important to someone, that’s their choice. I see no issue with it. But tell the person you are with that it’s important to you. “I would not want to have a relationship with a woman how as had any one night stands or more and 2 sex partners.” Be upfront and honest.
> 
> Don’t get into a sexual relationship with a person, then afterwards ask “how many sex partners have you had?” She says 10. Well while he enjoyed using her for sex, 10 is too many for him. So he dumps her. This is another WTF?
> 
> Also realize that a lot of people think that for the most part the number of sex partners in the past is not relevant. To other it is.


I don't really want to be "that guy", but do you think you could do me the favour of linking to the threads you are talking about? Thanks!


----------



## GusPolinski

EleGirl said:


> I did not say that “a number of women w/ whom she'd spoken regarding the topic indicated a certain unease -- even fear”.
> 
> I said I have never had anyone ask me those questions. I have also asked other women if any guy has ever asked them those questions. Every woman I had asked said that no, they had never been asked.


I'd have sworn that I read that. I've just taken another look and can't find it. I'm not sure how I read that into your comments, but I apologize for putting words in your mouth nonetheless.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD, 

I find it odd that you feel that you have the right to set your own standards, judgments and pick a partner based on those. But you are attacking me for having my own standards and judgments. It's very much OK for mine to differ from your. 



TiggyBlue said:


> To be fair EleGirl never implied anyone who simply asked these questions was insecure.





EleGirl said:


> The thing is that I've seen guys here on TAM who are not young write some stuff that has led to me realizing that *there are a lot of guys out there who are like that crazy jealous guy.*


What is wrong with saying that there are some men who are crazy jealous? It’s a fact. It’s also a fact that there are some women who are crazy jealous. In that quote I was not talking about anyone and everyone was asked about sexual past. I was talking about guys who gather information about sexual past and then use it to feed their crazy jealousy. Note that I was not talking about all men. I was talking about men who did this. If you are not one of those men, why would you be offended by my talking about men who are crazy jealous?


EleGirl said:


> Yes I have stated that I would not react well to being asked those questions. They are in the form of an interrogation.
> 
> 
> It’s one thing for a couple to have conversations and disclose things as they choose. It’s another to interrogate a person and take inventory.
> 
> 
> *And yes, I do think that if I were on a date, and he asked me those three questions, I would consider him an insecure man. *


The stuff I’ve read some men say on TAM makes me leery of men who ask those sorts of questions, especially on a date.

Note I said “date”. I did not say “relationship”. There is a HUGE difference between a “date” and a “relationship”.

Let’s say I’m on a first date, or a 3rd date, and some guy asked me how many sex partners I’ve had and how many one night stands. I’m not going to tell him. I’m not going to tell him if it’s 0, 10, 40, or 100. It’s none of his business. I would also not tell him the balance of my bank accounts. I don’t know him well enough to share that kind of info.

Now if he says something like: “In a long term relationship, I’m looking for a woman who has had fewer sex partners than me and I’ve had 10.” Or he says “I would not want to be in a relationship with a woman who has had any ONSs.

Then I know that if I have 10 or more sex partners, or any ONSs, that it’s time to end the date and not go out with him again

After 1 date, 3 dates, etc. I don’t know this guy well enough to share stuff like this. I don’t trust him with that kind of info. For all I know my numbers, or lack thereof, will become the point of discussion of him and his drinking buddies.


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> I'd have sworn that I read that. I've just taken another look and can't find it. I'm not sure how I read that into your comments, but I apologize for putting words in your mouth nonetheless.


Apology accepted. It's easy to misread a post. I've done it before. I know that you have no ill intent.


----------



## GusPolinski

Lila said:


> Here's the one where the guy sleeps with the woman, THEN judges her for the not knowing her number.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../236354-girl-doesnt-know-how-many-lovers.html


----------



## I Don't Know

I'd be interested to see the rape one. I'm on the side of if you did it with your a-hole ex you should be willing to do it with me, and even I would never consider something that happened during a rape to be in the same ball park. Geez!

If I recall most of the men in the thread I saw were saying "If you did it before WHY won't you do it now?" Not "you MUST do it every time I want it." but maybe there were other threads I didn't see or posts I'm forgetting.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> I always ask this question before I even meet them. Why waste thier time and mine. You would be amazed the number of people who will admit to it.
> 
> It generally goes.
> 
> Me........have you ever cheated on anyone
> Them.......yes....butt.....and the out comes the story. They all have one and seem all to eager to share. I thought it would be the hardest thing to talk about / bring up. Turned out to be one of the easiest. Who knew :scratchhead:


I have found similar things, not with cheating but with dates going on and on about how awful their ex was. And in doing that they often reveal their own flaws even though they claim to have been the most perfect spouse.

My take on it to let them go on because I learn a lot about the person. I'm not impressed by people who badmouth their ex dates. I figure that some day they will be bad mouthing me like that to someone else.

Ranting on about their story and how awful their ex is also a sign that they have not dealt with their own issues and the trauma of the past relationship/breakup.


----------



## tacoma

Lila said:


> Here's the one where the guy sleeps with the woman, THEN judges her for the not knowing her number.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../236354-girl-doesnt-know-how-many-lovers.html





rep said:


> I believe in chivalry and I believe on needing some sense of purity in a women to place them on a pedestal. .....


The poor foolish bastard.


----------



## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> I don't really want to be "that guy", but do you think you could do me the favour of linking to the threads you are talking about? Thanks!


There is more than one thread. I will try to find some of them. 

From about 1pm today and all weekend I am going to be finishing up moving out of my old house and I have to clean it.. sucks big time. So I don't know how much time I will have to search this weekend.


----------



## EleGirl

Lila said:


> Here's the one where the guy sleeps with the woman, THEN judges her for the not knowing her number.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../236354-girl-doesnt-know-how-many-lovers.html


This is one of the threads for sure. But only one.


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> I'd be interested to see the rape one. I'm on the side of if you did it with your a-hole ex you should be willing to do it with me, and even I would never consider something that happened during a rape to be in the same ball park. Geez!
> 
> If I recall most of the men in the thread I saw were saying "If you did it before WHY won't you do it now?" Not "you MUST do it every time I want it." but maybe there were other threads I didn't see or posts I'm forgetting.


The thread in which a guy said that his SO has to do anything with him that she did with someone else, regardless of the circumstance, was a long time ago.. at least a year ago if not more.

I remember what was said well because I did re-ask the question many times, in many different ways, to make sure I was understanding him.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

I would think it makes sense to ask general questions as part of learning who someone is. Asking about specifics would be a red flag to me that the asker may be insecure.


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have another perspective on this.. I guess I see people in camps... the "rationalization hamster" seeking sympathy with a new date, while throwing an ex under the bus in a slaughtering way -yet He or she was "perfect" (of course!)....while you are wanting to roll your eyes all through the date ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to the sky!
> 
> *OR (much less likely)... someone who may really regret , knowing it was wrong....and if so, they would go INTO THIS to explain themselves, the guilt, shame, even embarrassment -read body language... but stayed truthful - just because.. they are a new person.. and lying is unacceptable. *
> 
> I guess I am one who appreciates HONESTY to such a high degree in another (as I feel  Billy Joels Honesty  is pretty much the reality when we meet others...too many play games & hide.....I guess I don't have a whole lot of faith in mankind, do I !
> 
> So someone coming forth with THAT BOMB, when asked.....I don't know.. I'd have to rule out the "new person" who truly learned from their actions once upon a time -but honored the question.... Someone like that would get "points" with me... over one who was too privacy prone...then they find out later..they just HID and omitted ...
> 
> I really feel this is WHY the majority have so many trust issues -because we have too many of THOSE in our pasts.


I guess ive only ever met one woman in this second camp. She was totally remorseful. Her story was hard to hear...years of neglect with a husband who cheated repeatedly. You could tell from her tone and body language she wasn't lying. She owned the responsibility for her part.

Unfortunately, as you pointed out, that is a risk I was not willing to take and I told her I wouldn't see her again. She did get upset...not so much with me but that this circumstance would haunt her going forward. I told her it would likely only be an issue with a guy who was previously cheated on but it would be an issue none the less. I don't have a lot of hard and fast rules when it comes to dating.. I honestly try and be as open as possible. But previous cheating...no matter what circumstances I'm out. Just a risk I am no longer willing to take.


----------



## GusPolinski

Lila said:


> Me posting the link or the thread itself?


The other thread.

Wow.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> I have found similar things, not with cheating but with dates going on and on about how awful their ex was. And in doing that they often reveal their own flaws even though they claim to have been the most perfect spouse.
> 
> My take on it to let them go on because I learn a lot about the person. I'm not impressed by people who badmouth their ex dates. I figure that some day they will be bad mouthing me like that to someone else.
> 
> Ranting on about their story and how awful their ex is also a sign that they have not dealt with their own issues and the trauma of the past relationship/breakup.


Holy crap do I agree. Noting is more of a turn off when you are on date 1 or 2 and all she can talk about is how her x was this that and the other thing.... It's like wow you aren't ready to date yet. 

Unfortunately I know this cause I was that guy....I dated way before I was ready and I used to talk about my x endlessly. Thankfully it was pointed out to me and I stopped. It seems to me the further out from the divorce the less I say about it...least into specifics unless asked. I would spend hours on her and what she did....now it's just a sentence... Why did you get divorced? I loved my x wife very much but she cheated on me and I couldn't forgive that. Done


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *EleGirl said*: The stuff I’ve read some men say on TAM makes me leery of men who ask those sorts of questions, especially on a date.
> 
> *Note I said “date”. I did not say “relationship”. There is a HUGE difference between a “date” and a “relationship”.*
> 
> *Let’s say I’m on a first date, or a 3rd date,* and some guy asked me how many sex partners I’ve had and how many one night stands. I’m not going to tell him. I’m not going to tell him if it’s 0, 10, 40, or 100. It’s none of his business. I would also not tell him the balance of my bank accounts. *I don’t know him well enough to share that kind of info*.











.... there is a big difference -when just getting to know someone.. feeling them out..it could take a good 20 dates (I'm guessing) to find one that might be compatible enough to lead to something "exclusive" that we'd define as a "relationship ..where another vulnerable layer could be peeled back..... 

This is why it's best to take things SLOW... some wouldn't mind sharing the sex though...even if it didn't work out..& they only made it to date 4 -like what you said here >>


> *Elegirl said:* *Don’t get into a sexual relationship with a person, then afterwards ask “how many sex partners have you had?” She says 10. Well while he enjoyed using her for sex, 10 is too many for him. So he dumps her. This is another WTF*?


Now this response is laid *on the Guy*.. but I feel we need to inform women , (our daughters too)...that just because a guy SHOULD act a certain way ~ DOESN'T MEAN HE WILL... we don't know him or what he is made of, we haven't given it enough time ....so to avoid this altogether, we have a part to play too... isn't it better to NOT go here -until you really know what the man is made of...then both are less likely to walk away calling each ugly explicits....

I just find that a shame all the way around.. this is the sort of thing that set genders against each other ...and it will never end.



> Now if he says something like: *“In a long term relationship, I’m looking for a woman who has had fewer sex partners than me and I’ve had 10.” Or he says “I would not want to be in a relationship with a woman who has had any ONSs*.


 More should be this upfront to save the heartache.. though some may feel they will come off a little rude...and others can / will be offended by it.... Though true, it's still Best to just put it out there.. to weed them out.. either the other will be happy with what was spoken, feeling a "FIT"..so far, so good.. or understand "this just isn't going to work out"..and walk away as quickly as possible.


----------



## JCD

This thread kind of baffles me.

I mean, I can see Skeevy McBoyfriend badgering a woman about details so he can be sexually titilated by the whole thing...and unless the woman is into it, I can see that as being a total turn off if not incredibly rude and a deal breaker.

AND...I can see Sexually Obsessive Boyfriend getting worked up about the details...but this guy is CRAZY! And if the woman went with Crazy in the first place...well...she's the one who picked Crazy.

And I mean the whole premise is just flawed "Women, do men interogate you to blackmail you about..." Blink blink. We know that's wrong.

So it comes down to sexual past. So it comes down to two points:

If you love this person and are trying to establish a long term relationship, do you keep secrets from them? If so, you are accepting responsibilty for the fall out if they find out your secrets and are hurt by them.

The second is one of autonomy. A woman is pefectly free to say what is or is not someone else's business. And as an autonomous person, I get to decide what is or is not important to me. A woman's right to privacy does not trump my desires. This is that delightful tension which makes relationships so damned fun 

I do know this: I go into 'interrogation' mode when I find someone is hiding something from me (which I already know something about) or they are lying to me. That moves the dynamics from 'insecurity' to 'relationship conflict', where, essentially, my supposed partner is telling me to get bent about the truth about something...something I've already decided is important.

One last point: Details. Want to know another word for details? CONTEXT. "So...you killed your dad and slept with your mother..."

That is the story of Thesus. And without 'the details', he seems pretty awful. The details are the things which exonerate him...or damn him more.

I acknowledge the existance of slvt shaming...and from the sounds of the posters, that is really becoming less and less of an issue every year. The problem is improving.

Sex and 'relationship' is so intrinsically tied together that saying one is out of bounds but the other is not is sort of silly to my eyes.


----------



## Anon Pink

tacoma said:


> The poor foolish bastard.


:rofl:


So so true.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> JCD,
> 
> I find it odd that you feel that you have the right to set your own standards, judgments and pick a partner based on those. But you are attacking me for having my own standards and judgments. It's very much OK for mine to differ from your.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with saying that there are some men who are crazy jealous? It’s a fact. It’s also a fact that there are some women who are crazy jealous. In that quote I was not talking about anyone and everyone was asked about sexual past. I was talking about guys who gather information about sexual past and then use it to feed their crazy jealousy. Note that I was not talking about all men. I was talking about men who did this. If you are not one of those men, why would you be offended by my talking about men who are crazy jealous?
> 
> 
> The stuff I’ve read some men say on TAM makes me leery of men who ask those sorts of questions, especially on a date.
> 
> Note I said “date”. I did not say “relationship”. There is a HUGE difference between a “date” and a “relationship”.
> 
> Let’s say I’m on a first date, or a 3rd date, and some guy asked me how many sex partners I’ve had and how many one night stands. I’m not going to tell him. I’m not going to tell him if it’s 0, 10, 40, or 100. It’s none of his business. I would also not tell him the balance of my bank accounts. I don’t know him well enough to share that kind of info.
> 
> Now if he says something like: “In a long term relationship, I’m looking for a woman who has had fewer sex partners than me and I’ve had 10.” Or he says “I would not want to be in a relationship with a woman who has had any ONSs.
> 
> Then I know that if I have 10 or more sex partners, or any ONSs, that it’s time to end the date and not go out with him again
> 
> After 1 date, 3 dates, etc. I don’t know this guy well enough to share stuff like this. I don’t trust him with that kind of info. For all I know my numbers, or lack thereof, will become the point of discussion of him and his drinking buddies.




This is a fair point and since I wasn't thinking about it in that context, let me step back and say 'this information is important IF you are going into a relationshp, not just a casual hook up. Not on a first or third date (though date three is getting close to some basics "So...seen the doctor lately..." No real graceful way to ask about STDs but irregardless of partners or numbers, sort of an important question.)

I would not ask such intimate questions of any woman unless I was planning on making her a permanent part of my life. And even then, I would have the conversation respectfully and non confrontationally.

I hope this clarifies my thinking a bit.

Here is a general list. Please see what you don't like.

1) So...do you do oral? Do you do anal? What is your favorite kink? (I do not do anal but I want oral. And if she frequently wants to pee on someone...probably not compatible.) This is directed at what I want and not what she has done, which I think is a fairer question.

2) "So...I think that if I were socializing with a woman I slept with more than once that I owe you a heads up to avoid social awkwardness. Do you agree?" She had better agree...and not lie (that would be INFLICTED insecurity if she lied)

3) "What's your number in general terms? Okay...how many were LTRs and how many were hook ups?" Then we have a conversation about 'context' not names.

4) Do I have to watch out for some ex con BF, a stalker, some rich senator who you still have the flaming hots for or something like that? Essentially, do you think there is a part of your past which I am going to have to deal with in my present? (She might be mistaken about what is important. But if I get the sense she lied to avoid a difficult conversation...remember that interrogation mode? Lucy has some 'splainin to do...) I think this is a fair bit of forewarning and I would owe the same to her.



And yes, I have met that crazy jealous guy on occasion. He is sort of rare though any person can have a bad episode for a short time (and trust me...ugly jealousy...not gender specific. I can't tell you some of my stories about jealous women. You could probably tell me more.)


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> The thread in which a guy said that his SO has to do anything with him that she did with someone else, regardless of the circumstance, was a long time ago.. at least a year ago if not more.
> 
> I remember what was said well because I did re-ask the question many times, in many different ways, to make sure I was understanding him.


Well that is truly a twisted view of the situation. I hope you aren't using him as a marker for how men feel about that situation. 

I feel that "Honey, you said Josh treated you horribly, and yet you gave up the booty for him. If I am so much better to you, the love of your life as you say, why am I not getting the same consideration?" is a far cry from that perspective. (I used the right word this time!!!)


----------



## tacoma

I Don't Know said:


> I feel that "Honey, you said Josh treated you horribly, and yet you gave up the booty for him. If I am so much better to you, the love of your life as you say, why am I not getting the same consideration?" is a far cry from that perspective. (I used the right word this time!!!)


The irony is that she may not be giving it to her husband BECAUSE of the way Josh treated her and the bad memories of the act since it involved a ****ty partner.


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> Well that is truly a twisted view of the situation. I hope you aren't using him as a marker for how men feel about that situation.
> 
> I feel that "Honey, you said Josh treated you horribly, and yet you gave up the booty for him. If I am so much better to you, the love of your life as you say, *why am I not getting the same consideration?*" is a far cry from that perspective. (I used the right word this time!!!)


I think that is a very reasonable question to as long as it is being genuinely asked.


----------



## I Don't Know

tacoma said:


> The irony is that she may not be giving it to her husband BECAUSE of the way Josh treated her and the bad memories of the act since it involved a ****ty partner.


Quite true. All the sane men and one crazy one (me) were saying just tell us WHY. If there is a reason, let us know and we will deal with it. Or if "I" don't like the reason maybe it's a deal breaker, but that's for "me" to decide.

Just like a guy who doesn't give flowers because he is allergic might not be a deal breaker, but if he doesn't because he is an insensitive ass it might be. Gender stereotypes notwithstanding


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> Well that is truly a twisted view of the situation. I hope you aren't using him as a marker for how men feel about that situation.


I made is clear that this was one man. Of course I do not hold all men responsible for what one man says.


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> Quite true. All the sane men and one crazy one (me) were saying just tell us WHY. If there is a reason, let us know and we will deal with it. Or if "I" don't like the reason maybe it's a deal breaker, but that's for "me" to decide.
> 
> Just like a guy who doesn't give flowers because he is allergic might not be a deal breaker, but if he doesn't because he is an insensitive ass it might be. Gender stereotypes notwithstanding


One example that a fair number of men commented about is this scenario.

A woman had anal sex in a past relationship. She now will not have anal sex with her SO/husband. She tells him that she tired it, does not like it and/or it hurts.

A fair number of men on TAM have said that it does not matter if she does not like it or it hurts her. She has to have anal with him because he has go there since some other guy did. And that she would not have the right to not have anal with him, ever.

Unfortunately the big anal sex thread was deleted by the OP. It was a pretty shocking thread.


----------



## norajane

I Don't Know said:


> Well that is truly a twisted view of the situation. I hope you aren't using him as a marker for how men feel about that situation.
> 
> I feel that "Honey, you said Josh treated you horribly, and yet you gave up the booty for him. If I am so much better to you, the love of your life as you say, *why am I not getting the same consideration?"* is a far cry from that perspective. (I used the right word this time!!!)


You want to be considered abusive like Josh?

This is the precise attitude I mentioned in my previous posts about running from someone who wants to know a catalog of positions. Immediately, the person asking feels like he isn't getting what he is "entitled to" or "deserves" because someone else "got that consideration."

If a guy is going to feel cheated out of something he thinks he "deserves" regardless of what I want or don't want to do with my body now, then I want no part of that discussion.


----------



## I Don't Know

I would indeed be shocked by that. Mostly because I think I'm pretty deep in the why him and not me camp, and I don't think this way at all. Tried anal and it hurts? Not a problem.

I still think the extreme cases were brought up for a reason. So if you weren't drawing a correlation between a guy who asks how many partners and a guy who thinks if you are butt raped you owe him butt sex for life, what was the point?


----------



## GusPolinski

I Don't Know said:


> I would indeed be shocked by that. Mostly because I think I'm pretty deep in the why him and not me camp, and I don't think this way at all. Tried anal and it hurts? Not a problem.
> 
> I still think the extreme cases were brought up for a reason. So if you weren't drawing a correlation between a guy who asks how many partners and a guy who thinks if you are butt raped you owe him butt sex for life, what was the point?


...it's like watching Byron w/ a quill and parchment.



Just to be clear, ^this^ is sarcasm.


----------



## I Don't Know

norajane said:


> You want to be considered abusive like Josh?
> 
> This is the precise attitude I mentioned in my previous posts about running from someone who wants to know a catalog of positions. Immediately, the person asking feels like he isn't getting what he is "entitled to" or "deserves" because someone else "got that consideration."
> 
> If a guy is going to feel cheated out of something he thinks he "deserves" regardless of what I want or don't want to do with my body now, then I want no part of that discussion.


The only thing I feel entitled to is an explanation and, something men apparently don't deserve, self determination.


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> I would indeed be shocked by that. Mostly because I think I'm pretty deep in the why him and not me camp, and I don't think this way at all. Tried anal and it hurts? Not a problem.


What if she said that she will not do anal now because she found that she does not like it?


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> The only thing I feel entitled to is an explanation and, *something men apparently don't deserve, self determination*.


No one here has even suggested that men do not deserve self determination.

What is being said is that women also deserve self determination.

And just like men, we too get to decide what criteria to use to chose a mate.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> You want to be considered abusive like Josh?
> 
> This is the precise attitude I mentioned in my previous posts about running from someone who wants to know a catalog of positions. Immediately, the person asking feels like he isn't getting what he is "entitled to" or "deserves" because someone else "got that consideration."
> 
> If a guy is going to feel cheated out of something he thinks he "deserves" regardless of what I want or don't want to do with my body now, then I want no part of that discussion.


I do remember bits of the threads that debated all of this, and I remember a fair number of women who just couldn't wrap their minds around what was actually being said by the men. They seemed to just stop at the thought that this shouldn't even be a question at all regardless.

Very few men had any problems what so ever accepting an answer along the lines of "I tried it and didn't like it", or "It was painful"


----------



## norajane

I Don't Know said:


> The only thing I feel entitled to is an explanation and, something men apparently don't deserve, self determination.


Men would have just as much self-determination if they just asked, "What positions do you enjoy?" or "How do you feel about oral/anal/swinging from the chandelier wearing dominatrix boots?" rather than what positions they did or didn't do with someone else and why won't she do them now.


----------



## I Don't Know

GusPolinski said:


> ...it's like watching Byron w/ a quill and parchment.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, ^this^ is sarcasm.


Who the hell is Bryon!? 

Just to be clear, so is ^this^.


----------



## samyeagar

EleGirl said:


> What if she said that she will not do anal now because she found that she does not like it?


I believe most men would be perfectly accepting of that. Though I imagine if it were to come out that she did in fact like it, just not with her husband, that would lead to some questions.

I imagine the same would generally be true of women too if their husband had some aversion to something they wanted...

Of course, to get to this point, the questions and knowledge of a partners past would have had to have been asked...


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> No one here has even suggested that men do not deserve self determination.
> 
> What is being said is that women also deserve self determination.
> 
> And just like men, we too get to decide what criteria to use to chose a mate.


Fair enough, I am looking at it from a "lying about it is ok" angle and I don't believe you or Nora have said that. My fault. 

The lying is where self determination is being taken away.


----------



## GusPolinski

I Don't Know said:


> Who the hell is Bryon!?


Well, Lord Byron was... 



I Don't Know said:


> Just to be clear, so is ^this^.


Ah.


----------



## samyeagar

Just a point of clarity on my previous responses. This is not something I personally deal with. My wife does everything with me she has ever done before, and more. There are things she tried in the past, didn't like, but wanted to with me, and actually found that she enjoys them with me. As difficult as it is for me to believe sometimes because of her extensive past, I am the best she has ever had by a long shot, and not just in bed, but every other aspect of our relationship as well, and it shows in how she is sexually with me.

I think part of my success in this arena has been the fact that she has self determination without any pressure or shaming or degrading or demands from me.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> What if she said that she will not do anal now because she found that she does not like it?


Is this a trick question? I don't let my SO kick me in the gentials just because she feels owed it. I am not owed something that is very painful to her.

Now...as a matter of relationship dynamics, if I were the wife, I would give a nice long graphic explanation to my husband about the history including awful details., I would outline exactly how much I hate that particular act...and then I'd probably do it for him once as a symbol "Even though I hate this like poison, I also care about your feelings and the hurt you are experiencing so I am giving you this once and don't expect any repeats."

This really threads the needle. Symbolically showing her husband that he DOES matter but also outlining that if he cared for HER, he will never ask for this again.

And frankly, if my wife told me something like that, I would think the gesture was enough of a sacrifice and would NOT take the offering.


----------



## JCD

samyeagar said:


> I do remember bits of the threads that debated all of this, and I remember a fair number of women who just couldn't wrap their minds around what was actually being said by the men. They seemed to just stop at the thought that this shouldn't even be a question at all regardless.
> 
> Very few men had any problems what so ever accepting an answer along the lines of "I tried it and didn't like it", or "It was painful"



I was one of them.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

samyeagar said:


> I do remember bits of the threads that debated all of this, and I remember a fair number of women who just couldn't wrap their minds around what was actually being said by the men. They seemed to just stop at the thought that this shouldn't even be a question at all regardless.
> 
> Very few men had any problems what so ever accepting an answer along the lines of "I tried it and didn't like it", or "It was painful"


I remember that thread as well. Hypotheticals about women who had no reasons for not wanting to do something they had done in the past. Every time a reason would be given it was shot down. 

IMO "I don't want to" is an answer. If it's not enough for her partner then he needs to make a choice based on that.


----------



## samyeagar

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I remember that thread as well. Hypotheticals about women who had no reasons for not wanting to do something they had done in the past. Every time a reason would be given it was shot down.
> 
> IMO "*I don't want to" is an answer*. If it's not enough for her partner then he needs to make a choice based on that.


For sure it's an answer, and some will accept it at that, though I suspect that most wouldn't. It is an answer a parent gives a child. They may not pursue it any further, but the message is sent.


----------



## JCD

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I remember that thread as well. Hypotheticals about women who had no reasons for not wanting to do something they had done in the past. Every time a reason would be given it was shot down.
> 
> IMO "I don't want to" is an answer. If it's not enough for her partner then he needs to make a choice based on that.


Her: "We need to go to Christmas at my mothers."

Him: "I don't want to."

Do you accept his reason?


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> What if she said that she will not do anal now because she found that she does not like it?





JCD said:


> Is this a trick question? I don't let my SO kick me in the gentials just because she feels owed it. I am not owed something that is very painful to her.
> 
> Now...as a matter of relationship dynamics, if I were the wife, I would give a nice long graphic explanation to my husband about the history including awful details., I would outline exactly how much I hate that particular act...and then I'd probably do it for him once as a symbol "Even though I hate this like poison, I also care about your feelings and the hurt you are experiencing so I am giving you this once and don't expect any repeats."
> 
> This really threads the needle. Symbolically showing her husband that he DOES matter but also outlining that if he cared for HER, he will never ask for this again.
> 
> And frankly, if my wife told me something like that, I would think the gesture was enough of a sacrifice and would NOT take the offering.


An anal sex act will take several minutes.. let’s say 5-10 minutes minimum. With pain.. that’s like getting kicked in your balls over and over for 5-10 minutes.

So, if your wife is turned on and gets sexual pleasure out of kicking you in the balls, you will let her to that you to you for at least 5-10 minutes, over and over, just to as symbol to show her that you care about her feelings and the hurt that you are experiencing.

This would symbolically show your wife that she does matter.

Have I got that right?

You apparently have no idea what the pain from anal sex can be like. Yes it’s right up there with getting your balls kicked. 

The above post is exactly the kind of post that makes many women shutter.


----------



## I Don't Know

Missed the part where he said he would NOT take the offering?


----------



## RoseAglow

JCD said:


> Her: "We need to go to Christmas at my mothers."
> 
> Him: "I don't want to."
> 
> Do you accept his reason?


I would not date a guy who wasn't in agreement with sharing family holidays. We wouldn't get past the first one.

No big deal; he doesn't want to do something that is important to me, we would not be a good fit.

There is no reason to argue, he is entitled to his preference.

BTW if we compare this to anal is it "We need to have anal"? If so, then "No, I don't want to" actually IS a fine, complete answer. IMO.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> Her: "We need to go to Christmas at my mothers."
> 
> Him: "I don't want to."
> 
> Do you accept his reason?


Yep, if you don't want to then you don't want to. It's called self determination.

Now she can decide what her response will be to that.


----------



## RoseAglow

samyeagar said:


> For sure it's an answer, and some will accept it at that, though I suspect that most wouldn't. It is an answer a parent gives a child. They may not pursue it any further, but the message is sent.


Most men won't consider "I don't want to" a complete response?

I think I have met a lot of men who don't fit the TAM mold.

I have never had a guy ask my "number". I have never had a guy ever ask, "Did you do this for someone else but not me?" or even question me about a sex act that I was not interested/comfortable in doing. 

Maybe they secretly seethed, I don't know. But they surely didn't say anything about it.


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> Missed the part where he said he would NOT take the offering?


I edited that part out.

But I want to know if he's going to offer her the one-time ball kicking for 5-10 minutes as a symbol of his love.. with a chance that she will take him up on it.


----------



## I Don't Know

Ok,

Her: "I want you to go down on me"
Him: "I don't do that. It's not something I want to try, but I will do other things to give you orgasms."
Her: "Hmm, well you're a really great guy. Great job. Family oriented. Driven. Handsome. Caring. Loving. And it's not like I'll never have orgasms again, just not from oral. Ok we can get serious."

5 years and a marriage later.

Her: "I thought you didn't go down on women? Your friend Dave said you did it all the time with Pam. You even wrote a blog with 21 entries about how much you loved eating Pam out! Why wont you go down on me?"
Him: " Don't want to."


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> I edited that part out.
> 
> But I want to know if he's going to offer her the one-time ball kicking for 5-10 minutes as a symbol of his love.. with a chance that she will take him up on it.


OK. Well it's a hilarious image if nothing else.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JCD said:


> Her: "We need to go to Christmas at my mothers."
> 
> Him: "I don't want to."
> 
> Do you accept his reason?


All this sex stuff should be worked out before marriage so things like 

I don't want to have more than 2 kids

I don't want to live in the city

Are all fine answers. You decide if it fits you and the life you want, not "But you lived in the city with Joe!! How come you wouldn't with me?"

What he/she before you is irrelevant. Who he/she is now is who you are deciding if you want to be with. 

As for sex- there are some things I don't want to do. Some have reasons, others I'm just not interested in. I decide if I want to share more than "I don't want to" based on how well I can trust my partner and why he is asking and if he will use it against me- oh and if I want to share.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I Don't Know said:


> Ok,
> 
> Her: "I want you to go down on me"
> Him: "I don't do that. It's not something I want to try, but I will do other things to give you orgasms."
> Her: "Hmm, well you're a really great guy. Great job. Family oriented. Driven. Handsome. Caring. Loving. And it's not like I'll never have orgasms again, just not from oral. Ok we can get serious."
> 
> 5 years and a marriage later.
> 
> Her: "I thought you didn't go down on women? Your friend Dave said you did it all the time with Pam. You even wrote a blog with 21 entries about how much you loved eating Pam out! Why wont you go down on me?"
> Him: " Don't want to."


She accepted the relationship as is. 

But if a man or woman finds out new information like this and wants to bring up the conversation and know the why, why not start with something more "I noticed you used to enjoy X in the past, is there a reason you stopped liking it?" Leave the you did it for him/her, you should do it for me crap out of it. No one is owed. The answer might still just be "I just don't want to do it anymore" and that could be all it is. Accept it or don't.


----------



## Extraordinary Way

I put other, but then realized I was asked number around the start of my relationship. years later i was also asked who i lost virginity to, and he shared who he lost his to.


----------



## I Don't Know

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> She accepted the relationship as is.
> 
> But if a man or woman finds out new information like this and wants to bring up the conversation and know the why, why not start with something more "I noticed you used to enjoy X in the past, is there a reason you stopped liking it?" Leave the you did it for him/her, you should do it for me crap out of it. No one is owed. The answer might still just be "I just don't want to do it anymore" and that could be all it is. Accept it or don't.


I don't guess I see the difference in the two lines of questions. Does it really make that much difference if a specific example is given vs. a general you used to do it? Is that really where the whole hang up is?


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> Ok,
> 
> Her: "I want you to go down on me"
> Him: "I don't do that. It's not something I want to try, but I will do other things to give you orgasms."
> Her: "Hmm, well you're a really great guy. Great job. Family oriented. Driven. Handsome. Caring. Loving. And it's not like I'll never have orgasms again, just not from oral. Ok we can get serious."
> 
> 5 years and a marriage later.
> 
> Her: "I thought you didn't go down on women? Your friend Dave said you did it all the time with Pam. You even wrote a blog with 21 entries about how much you loved eating Pam out! Why wont you go down on me?"
> Him: " Don't want to."


She knew that he did not want to do oral when they married. She accepted that. 

He has the right to decide what he will or will not do sexually.

it does not matter what he did before he met her.


----------



## tacoma

EleGirl said:


> She knew that he did not want to do oral when they married. She accepted that.
> 
> He has the right to decide what he will or will not do sexually.
> 
> it does not matter what he did before he met her.


I don't think this is really that cut and dry.

You may accept that your SO doesn't do a certain thing and be fine with it but when you discover they used to do that same thing with someone else it's only natural to have some insecurity about why.
Do I taste bad?Do I not satisfy them?Are they less attracted to me?

If my wife did something with someone else that she refused to do with me I think these thoughts would roll through my brain.

I'd ask her why.
If she refused to answer that'd only increase my resentment.
If she answered honestly I'd probably be able to forget about it.

To refuse an answer is to close down communication refering to something that could cause pain to the person you supposedly love.

I don't see why she couldn't wouldn't give me an answer unless the answer would be more painful for me.

It's odd to hear this line of answers from women here since most of you generally espouse open communication being necessary in a relationship especially where self-esteem and sex is concerned.

I don't see why this is any different.


----------



## I Don't Know

So we shouldn't take any circumstances into consideration when pairing up? It's either a fit or it's not? 

Yes she accepted the relationship as is. Based on misleading information. 

I think at this point you're just digging in your heels.


----------



## norajane

I Don't Know said:


> I don't guess I see the difference in the two lines of questions. Does it really make that much difference if a specific example is given vs. a general you used to do it? Is that really where the whole hang up is?


No, the hang-up is in this part of SGC's post:
*


SlowlyGoingCrazy said:



Leave the you did it for him/her, you should do it for me crap out of it. No one is owed.

Click to expand...

*


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> I don't think this is really that cut and dry.
> 
> You may accept that your SO doesn't do a certain thing and be fine with it but when you discover they used to do that same thing with someone else it's only natural to have some insecurity about why.
> Do I taste bad?Do I not satisfy them?Are they less attracted to me?
> 
> If my wife did something with someone else that she refused to do with me I think these thoughts would roll through my brain.
> 
> I'd ask her why.
> If she refused to answer that'd only increase my resentment.
> If she answered honestly I'd probably be able to forget about it.
> 
> To refuse an answer is to close down communication refering to something that could cause pain to the person you supposedly love.
> 
> I don't see why she couldn't wouldn't give me an answer unless the answer would be more painful for me.
> 
> It's odd to hear this line of answers from women here since most of you generally espouse open communication being necessary in a relationship especially where self-esteem and sex is concerned.
> 
> I don't see why this is any different.


I'm not saying that an answer of "I don't want to talk about it." is a good one. What I'm saying is that if that is his reply, then that is his reply. Of course more communication would be great. For example... 

"I only did oral in the past because I felt I had to keep a woman. But I was sexually molested as a child by a woman and forced to give her oral. So when I do it, I have PTSD flash backs. By the time I met you I had been in counseling and worked through it and no longer pressure myself to do things that bring me PTSD flash backs." 

Now he might not be able to voice this because he's still too traumatized. And he does not owe her oral.

He does not owe her oral even if he has done oral in the past.


----------



## RoseAglow

I Don't Know said:


> Ok,
> 
> Her: "I want you to go down on me"
> Him: "I don't do that. It's not something I want to try, but I will do other things to give you orgasms."
> Her: "Hmm, well you're a really great guy. Great job. Family oriented. Driven. Handsome. Caring. Loving. And it's not like I'll never have orgasms again, just not from oral. Ok we can get serious."
> 
> 5 years and a marriage later.
> 
> Her: "I thought you didn't go down on women? Your friend Dave said you did it all the time with Pam. You even wrote a blog with 21 entries about how much you loved eating Pam out! Why wont you go down on me?"
> Him: " Don't want to."



It's fine. Using your example, if oral was really important to me, we never would have gotten married. If I thought I was giving something up by not getting oral, we would not have gotten married. I'd only be ok with the original arrangement if I really wasn't interested in oral in the first place. (BTW there are quite a number of women who really don't care for it.)

I might ask him if something happened out of curiosity, that's about it. 

Here, I'll give you a real-world example. I know that my husband had a higher drive for most of his first marriage. I never asked him, but I know from our talks about being younger and more energetic. "Back then I was an every day, every-other day guy" or something along those lines. It also happens that he and I were friends long before his first marriage, and I recall him talking about his first wife when they first got together. He was madly in love with her. He was pretty descriptive, LOL! I was happy for him, I thought he deserved happiness and I didn't approve of how his girlfriend (my BFF at the time) ditched him. She was a b1tch and cheated on him. He was heartbroken.

Now, today, his drive is much lower. It was much lower when we got together and hasn't really changed all that much since the first year or so. Happily, our drives actually match better at this frequency. His past frequency doesn't phase me.

If I was an "every day/every other day" girl then it wouldn't have helped me to wonder, "why her and not me?" What would be the point in saying, Hey, you wrote 100 blog posts about your daily crazy monkey sex! Why won't you do that with me?!??" 

The only thing that would have been helpful would be an honest assessment: "I really prefer daily crazy monkey sex. This guy might have had it at one point, but he doesn't now. Time to move on."

The hand-wringing is just craziness, IMO.


----------



## EleGirl

I Don't Know said:


> So we shouldn't take any circumstances into consideration when pairing up? It's either a fit or it's not?
> 
> Yes she accepted the relationship as is. Based on misleading information.
> 
> I think at this point you're just digging in your heels.


How did he mislead her? He told her that he does not do oral. That means that at that point of his life he does not do oral.

No one is digging in their heels.... we are trying to explain. 

And why on earth would I want my husband to do something in our sex lives that he does not want to do or enjoy? If I know that he does not want to do it, then I would not get any pleasure out of it at all.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I Don't Know said:


> I don't guess I see the difference in the two lines of questions. Does it really make that much difference if a specific example is given vs. a general you used to do it? Is that really where the whole hang up is?


No, it's thinking your spouse should do something for you just because they did in in the past. 
That they need to have a good reason why they won't- and that for some men it doesn't even matter if they have a reason, they should do it anyway.

If you want to ask your spouse why they don't like a sex act, you can bring it up in a way that's not accusing them of doing something bad by not liking it anymore, not making them feel like they should owe you and accepting what answer they choose to share with you.


----------



## I Don't Know

norajane said:


> No, the hang-up is in this part of SGC's post:
> *
> *


I really don't see the difference, but ok. Does naming names imply that we are owed something?


----------



## staarz21

I Don't Know said:


> So we shouldn't take any circumstances into consideration when pairing up? It's either a fit or it's not?
> 
> Yes she accepted the relationship as is. Based on misleading information.
> 
> I think at this point you're just digging in your heels.


How was she mislead? According to that story, he said he didn't do oral. Just because he did it in the past, doesn't mean he would want to continue to do so.


----------



## Maricha75

Lol I'm going against the grain on this one. (What else is new?) "I don't want to" wouldn't be an acceptable answer for me. If I ask my husband to do something, whether sexual or not (including spending time with my family), and he says "I don't want to.", I ask for a reason why. "I don't want to" is not an acceptable answer from our kids, and not acceptable for each other... not as a stand alone, at least. "I don't want to because _______" is acceptable, however. And when it comes to sex, I absolutely think my husband would be owed an explanation as to WHY I wouldn't want to do certain acts! I don't want to do anal... because I believe the anus to be "exit only". Perfectly acceptable answer. And if someone tried it and had a traumatic experience, THAT is the why. Why hide this from someone you are intimate with? If you tried it and you just don't like it, say so. Seriously, what is the big deal with being honest with someone you're planning to have sex with, or are having sex with? Really, this is just becoming one big argument. The same argument as in threads past, and is getting old.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I Don't Know said:


> I really don't see the difference, but ok. Does naming names imply that we are owed something?


The difference between 


_"I thought you didn't go down on women? Your friend Dave said you did it all the time with Pam. You even wrote a blog with 21 entries about how much you loved eating Pam out! Why wont you go down on me?"_

and 

_"I noticed you used to enjoy X in the past, is there a reason you stopped liking it?"_

Is that 1 is accusing, making it a you vs. Pam situation. He's come at like a bad guy. That kind of tone would shut some people right down, feel they are being scolded when they did nothing wrong. 

The other is more opening a conversation without prejudice and jealousy. But that was just an example of what would make me more likely to give a "why" answer (which is all you need, right?)
Come at me like #1 and I will never feel safe enough to share it.


----------



## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> I don't think this is really that cut and dry.
> 
> You may accept that your SO doesn't do a certain thing and be fine with it but when you discover they used to do that same thing with someone else it's only natural to have some insecurity about why.
> Do I taste bad?Do I not satisfy them?Are they less attracted to me?


You'd only ask the question if you cared about it in the first place. If you don't care about getting oral, you won't have those questions.

I am going to assume here that you have no desire to have your wife use a dildo on you: Do you care about whether or not your wife will use a dildo on you? Even if you found out that she did it with a past partner an didn't want to do it again, and didn't really want to talk about why? Would you be resentful about it? 

Back to the oral example, if I really cared about getting oral and my guy told me he wasn't interested, then I would absolutely take him at his word. I'd have to find someone else.

If I sort of cared and accepted that he didn't do it, and decided that he was worth the "sacrifice", I might ask him if there was anything I could do to tempt him. But probably not.

Really, I have too much ego, I guess. I would not beg my guy for something that he really didn't want. I would not feel good if I had to convince him.

Lastly- I think most men would find a polite way to address an issue if it was a specific issue that was holding them up. Like hair or hygiene or something. 




> If my wife did something with someone else that she refused to do with me I think these thoughts would roll through my brain.
> 
> I'd ask her why.
> If she refused to answer that'd only increase my resentment.
> If she answered honestly I'd probably be able to forget about it.
> 
> To refuse an answer is to close down communication referring to something that could cause pain to the person you supposedly love.


For me, it is not so much having to refuse to tell someone, it is the apparent entitlement many men seem to have with this idea that, If She Did It For Him, She Should Do It For Me. And If she doesn't want to do it, She Owes Me An Explanation (or I'm not going to the family house for Christmas, she is so childish!! LOL)

And at least on my end, this is all theoretical. It has just never come up.


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> Lol I'm going against the grain on this one. (What else is new?) "I don't want to" wouldn't be an acceptable answer for me. If I ask my husband to do something, whether sexual or not (including spending time with my family), and he says "I don't want to.", I ask for a reason why. "I don't want to" is not an acceptable answer from our kids, and not acceptable for each other... not as a stand alone, at least. "I don't want to because _______" is acceptable, however. And when it comes to sex, I absolutely think my husband would be owed an explanation as to WHY I wouldn't want to do certain acts! I don't want to do anal... because I believe the anus to be "exit only". Perfectly acceptable answer. And if someone tried it and had a traumatic experience, THAT is the why. Why hide this from someone you are intimate with? If you tried it and you just don't like it, say so. Seriously, what is the big deal with being honest with someone you're planning to have sex with, or are having sex with? Really, this is just becoming one big argument. The same argument as in threads past, and is getting old.


I think that everyone would agree that giving an explanation would be the better way to handle things.

The point being made is at the very core level, a person has the right to decide/chose what they will and will not do. Rejecting that and demanding that they do it because they did it before is not appropriate.


----------



## tacoma

EleGirl said:


> Now he might not be able to voice this because he's still too traumatized. And he does not owe her oral.
> 
> He does not owe her oral even if he has done oral in the past.


I never implied he would at all.

I still believe he deserves more of an answer than "I don't want to" and unless the reason is because his wife tastes bad he has no other reason not to give an answer in some form.
Anything else is just going to build a rift in the relationship.

My wife cannot do bondage, she can't be that vulnerable with anyone.

She never told me this.

One night I bound her, (she had done it to me before) pretty damned effectively and she went along with it right up until the moment of penetration when she flipped out and yelled at me, immediately followed by begging and crying for me to release her which I did immediately.

I calmed her (it took awhile) and asked her why she had such a serious reaction to something I considered just play.
Something she considered just play when she did it to me.

She said "I did it before, he hurt me" and that's all she ever said.
I never asked another question, I never attempted to do it again.

I don't need the details but I do need something.

If she had told me "I just don't want to" it would never have flown with me because I knew something was up and my mind would have filled itself with all kinds of ****ed up scenarios.


----------



## Maricha75

staarz21 said:


> How was she mislead? According to that story, he said he didn't do oral. Just because he did it in the past, doesn't mean he would want to continue to do so.


He said it was something he didn't want to try . Meaning he he made it sound like he never did it. That's how she was mislead.


----------



## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> I think that everyone would agree that giving an explanation would be the better way to handle things.
> 
> The point being made is at the very core level, a person has the right to decide/chose what they will and will not do. Rejecting that and demanding that they do it because they did it before is not appropriate.


I agree that demanding  is unacceptable. But so is sticking with only "I don't want to" as the only answer given to wife/husband/SO.


----------



## staarz21

Maricha75 said:


> He said it was something he didn't want to try . Meaning he he made it sound like he never did it. That's how she was mislead.


Even still, if he isn't interested in trying - and he told her he didn't want to try before they married...I don't see how she was mislead. Maybe I am missing something.


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> I never implied he would at all.
> 
> I still believe he deserves more of an answer than "I don't want to" and unless the reason is because his wife tastes bad he has no other reason not to give an answer in some form.
> Anything else is just going to build a rift in the relationship.
> 
> My wife cannot do bondage, she can't be that vulnerable with anyone.
> 
> She never told me this.
> 
> One night I bound her, (she had done it to me before) pretty damned effectively and she went along with it right up until the moment of penetration when she flipped out and yelled at me, immediately followed by begging and crying for me to release her which I did immediately.
> 
> I calmed her (it took awhile) and asked her why she had such a serious reaction to something I considered just play.
> Something she considered just play when she did it to me.
> 
> She said "I did it before, he hurt me" and that's all she ever said.
> I never asked another question, I never attempted to do it again.
> 
> I don't need the details but I do need something.
> 
> If she had told me "I just don't want to" it would never have flown with me because I knew something was up and my mind would have filled itself with all kinds of ****ed up scenarios.


I'm going to repeat myself.

Of course giving some kind of explanation is the best thing... even if it's as simple as 'it hurts'. 

Some times the reasons are too traumatic and a person cannot talk about it. A simple "I don't do that." I'm ok with that.


----------



## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> I never implied he would at all.
> 
> I still believe he deserves more of an answer than "I don't want to" and unless the reason is because his wife tastes bad he has no other reason not to give an answer in some form.
> Anything else is just going to build a rift in the relationship.
> 
> My wife cannot do bondage, she can't be that vulnerable with anyone.
> 
> She never told me this.
> 
> One night I bound her, (she had done it to me before) pretty damned effectively and she went along with it right up until the moment of penetration when she flipped out and yelled at me, immediately followed by begging and crying for me to release her which I did immediately.
> 
> I calmed her (it took awhile) and asked her why she had such a serious reaction to something I considered just play.
> Something she considered just play when she did it to me.
> 
> She said "I did it before, he hurt me" and that's all she ever said.
> I never asked another question, I never attempted to do it again.
> 
> I don't need the details but I do need something.
> 
> If she had told me "I just don't want to" it would never have flown with me because I knew something was up and my mind would have filled itself with all kinds of ****ed up scenarios.


I am glad your wife feels secure enough with you to try something that scared her, and that your relationship is strong enough that you could comfort her.

I think you are describing something different though- she had a big reaction. To something you did. I agree that it is good to have a discussion.

What if she had said, right at the outset of your relationship, "I don't do bondage. I am not willing to try it." Would you need details then?


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> An anal sex act will take several minutes.. let’s say 5-10 minutes minimum. With pain.. that’s like getting kicked in your balls over and over for 5-10 minutes.
> 
> So, if your wife is turned on and gets sexual pleasure out of kicking you in the balls, you will let her to that you to you for at least 5-10 minutes, over and over, just to as symbol to show her that you care about her feelings and the hurt that you are experiencing.
> 
> This would symbolically show your wife that she does matter.
> 
> Have I got that right?
> 
> You apparently have no idea what the pain from anal sex can be like. Yes it’s right up there with getting your balls kicked.
> 
> The above post is exactly the kind of post that makes many women shutter.



Two things: One, you are ignoring the relationship dynamic. Hubby feels that wife has set dirtbag above him. So it is not just about 'giving the whiner what he wants'. It is that by keeping relationship damaging secrets, wifey has to find a way to fix this instead of just saying 'shut up'. 

Two: I occasionally go into the internet...and I find pages (and pages and pages) of sexual instruction. People who discuss anal sex. Who discuss how it can be made pain free. How some women LIKE IT. How there are correct and incorrect ways to do it.

I have not seen a single page about how to kick a person in the groin without it hurting.


Your analogy has a serious flaw.


----------



## RoseAglow

I Don't Know said:


> Ok,
> 
> Her: "I want you to go down on me"
> *Him: "I don't do that. It's not something I want to try, but I will do other things to give you orgasms."*





Maricha75 said:


> He said it was something he didn't want to try . Meaning he he made it sound like he never did it. That's how she was mislead.


I read the bold as "I don't do that, I don't want to try it in this relationship. Not gonna happen."

I don't see it as "I've never done it before." 

Just differences in perspective, I guess.

(Anyway, again I just don't see why it matters if he tried and didn't like it, or tried it and now has it associated with his ex, or just never had an interest.

For all intents and purposes, this is guy who doesn't want to do oral, end of story.)


----------



## Maricha75

staarz21 said:


> Even still, if he isn't interested in trying - and he told her he didn't want to try before they married...I don't see how she was mislead. Maybe I am missing something.


Because after they married, she found out he did do it before... and loved it. And blogged about living it, endlessly. He made her think it was something he had no intention of trying, ever. That is misleading.


----------



## RoseAglow

Maricha75 said:


> Because after they married, she found out he did do it before... and loved it. And blogged about living it, endlessly. He made her think it was something he had no intention of trying, ever. That is misleading.


Maybe he loved it once, but he was clear it's not on the table now and in the future. He never told her "I've never tried and I'm not going to." He told he wasn't going to try it with her and he wasn't going to do it.

What does it matter? Seriously? The message is: I am not going to do oral, and the wife had the opportunity to decide if that was going to work for her. She had all the information she needed to make an informed decision.


----------



## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> You'd only ask the question if you cared about it in the first place. If you don't care about getting oral, you won't have those questions.


Of course but then this would be a moot point but realistically the oral example isn't realistic because anyone would discover this incompatability by the third sexual encounter.



> I am going to assume here that you have no desire to have your wife use a dildo on you:...


Careful with those assumptions, I'm a 21st century man.


Lets get more realistic.
How about anal sex?
It's still kinda taboo a bit, something that might not come up in the beginning of a relationship.

If I had attempted anal on my wife (Because yes I like it) and she refused I'd be good without an explanation because hell, lots of people find it uncomfortable, painful, or just fear the idea so I'd probably just figure she was like that too.
In other words I enjoy anal sex but it isn't a dealbreaker for me if she said no.

However if I discovered anal sex was a mainstay in her prevous relationship I be justified to believe she obviously didn't fear it or find it painful.
I'd want to know what the deal was.

If she said "I just don't want to" we're back to my insecurity being peaked thinking I wasn't desirable enough or good enough for her to do it with me.
This would be a pretty natural human reaction from either gender.

However if she actually communicated with me and said..

"I did it for him because I was young and insecure so I dealt with the pain because I felt I had to" or "You're larger than he was and I could barely take it from him" those are answers that would immediately wipe that rising insecurity from my mind.



> For me, it is not so much having to refuse to tell someone, it is the apparent entitlement many men seem to have with this idea that, If She Did It For Him, She Should Do It For Me. And If she doesn't want to do it, She Owes Me An Explanation (or I'm not going to the family house for Christmas, she is so childish!! LOL)


I understand that and agree with it but I'm trying to show you that it's not always about entitlement, in fact I'd think it was more often about feelings of inadequacy and insecurity.
Feelings we all have at times, feelings that can cause resentment and self-esteem problems in our lovers.
Feelings that can be mitigated with just the slightest bit of open, honest communication.

She doesn't owe him an explanation at all but if she loves and cares for him she'll give him one if he's deserving of her love and care.


----------



## staarz21

Maricha75 said:


> Because after they married, she found out he did do it before... and loved it. And blogged about living it, endlessly. He made her think it was something he had no intention of trying, ever. That is misleading.


Well, if he doesn't want to do it to her, told her in the beginning (before they married) that he didn't want to do it....then he had no intention of trying...ever with her. 

What he did before, even if he loved it and blogged about it, doesn't matter. Something could have happened that made him change his mind. People have the right to change their mind.

Since he informed her of this before they married, it's a non issue. If she wants to get p*ssy about it, there is a door she can walk out of.


----------



## Maricha75

RoseAglow said:


> I read the bold as "I don't do that, I don't want to try it in this relationship. Not gonna happen."
> 
> I don't see it as "I've never done it before."
> 
> Just differences in perspective, I guess.
> 
> (Anyway, again I just don't see why it matters if he tried and didn't like it, or tried it and now has it associated with his ex, or just never had an interest.
> 
> For all intents and purposes, this is guy who doesn't want to do oral, end of story.)


Must be different perspectives. When those key words, "in this relationship" are left out, it changes the meaning. And, sorry, but I am one who, if I found out my husband blogged about how much he LOVED doing different sex acts, yet refused with me, claiming "I don't want to", that would be a bullshyt answer for me. And damn straight I would be entitled to an explanation!


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Maricha75 said:


> I agree that demanding  is unacceptable. But so is sticking with only "I don't want to" as the only answer given to wife/husband/SO.


It depends a lot of the situation. Obviously it can't be used for everything but some things are just a simple "I don't want to" or that's all they are willing to discuss at that moment, maybe they would open up more in the right circumstance. 

What they did in the past doesn't change anything though.


----------



## staarz21

So many things can go wrong with anal. Hemorrhoids, infections, tears, etc . So, if someone did it before, that does NOT mean they would like to continue to do it later on. The anus was not meant to have something go into it. It was made to excrete waste FROM the body. 

So, it could be possible for someone to enjoy anal sex at some point and then not again later on. Even if it wasn't painful to someone before, things can happen that could make it painful in the future.


----------



## Maricha75

I just don't see it that way. Too many want to use the "it's in the past, so it doesn't matter" argument. That doesn't fly with me.

*this was meant in response to SGC's post above, not staarz*


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> I agree that demanding  is unacceptable. But so is sticking with only "I don't want to" as the only answer given to wife/husband/SO.


So if my SO wants to do bondage. It's not good to just say that I won't do that? 

Do I have to tell him that I don't do that because it scares me?

Or do I have to go into an explanation of why it scares me? Keep in mind that giving this explanation will make be go into a very bad state.. I've been told it's a PTSD episode.


----------



## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> What if she had said, right at the outset of your relationship, "I don't do bondage. I am not willing to try it." Would you need details then?


Some yes.

If that's the answer I get I think it's perfectly natural for my next question to be "Why not?".

If she had said "I just don't want to" then I would know there was something she was hiding from me and that would affect our relationship in the long run.

If she had said "I had a bad experience with it" my mind would be settled and it probably wouldn't have come up again.


----------



## Maricha75

staarz21 said:


> So many things can go wrong with anal. Hemorrhoids, infections, tears, etc . So, if someone did it before, that does NOT mean they would like to continue to do it later on. The anus was not meant to have something go into it. It was made to excrete waste FROM the body.
> 
> So, it could be possible for someone to enjoy anal sex at some point and then not again later on. Even if it wasn't painful to someone before, things can happen that could make it painful in the future.


Completely agree with this. So why not say that when the subject comes up, rather than just "I don't want to"? It would save a WHOLE lot of misunderstanding, anger, pain, etc.


----------



## staarz21

Maricha75 said:


> I just don't see it that way. Too many want to use the "it's in the past, so it doesn't matter" argument. That doesn't fly with me.


That's ok though because that's what you prefer. 

I just don't really care about spending time worrying about what my H did before he met me. He doesn't care about what I did before I met him either. It just isn't worth the worry for me.


----------



## staarz21

Maricha75 said:


> Completely agree with this. So why not say that when the subject comes up, rather than just "I don't want to"? It would save a WHOLE lot of misunderstanding, anger, pain, etc.


I totally agree with that. I was thinking more along the lines of what Tacoma was saying. It was stated that if it was found out that a wife enjoyed anal in the past and didn't in the current relationship due to pain - that answer would likely not be believable because anal was enjoyed in the past. 

I just don't buy into the whole "I'm owed anal because my wife enjoyed it before" bit. Maybe she did...but a lot of stuff can go on down there that would indeed make it painful in the future.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> Two things: One, you are ignoring the relationship dynamic. Hubby feels that wife has set dirtbag above him. So it is not just about 'giving the whiner what he wants'. It is that by keeping relationship damaging secrets, wifey has to find a way to fix this instead of just saying 'shut up'.
> 
> Two: I occasionally go into the internet...and I find pages (and pages and pages) of sexual instruction. People who discuss anal sex. Who discuss how it can be made pain free. How some women LIKE IT. How there are correct and incorrect ways to do it.
> 
> I have not seen a single page about how to kick a person in the groin without it hurting.
> 
> 
> Your analogy has a serious flaw.


OK so let's change the scenario. Your wife finds using a strap on in your back side to be a huge sexual turn on.

So are you going to let her do it to show her how important she is to you?


----------



## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> So if my SO wants to do bondage. It's not good to just say that I won't do that?
> 
> Do I have to tell him that I don't do that because it scares me?
> 
> Or do I have to go into an explanation of why it scares me? Keep in mind that giving this explanation will make be go into a very bad state.. I've been told it's a PTSD episode.


Do you trust him? If you trust him, you should feel safe enough to explain to him why. You could EASILY explain, when the subject comes up (before he even tries to tie you up) that because of a traumatic event, that is off the table. If it was something you were willing to try, then I could see it playing out how Tacoma described with his wife. If completely off the table, but the subject is brought up, I really don't understand why saying "I don't do that because of a traumatic event." is unacceptable.


----------



## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> Careful with those assumptions, I'm a 21st century man.


 (Do you watch Broad Street on Comedy Central? There was an awesome episode about guys and "pegging' V



> If she said "I just don't want to" we're back to my insecurity being peaked thinking I wasn't desirable enough or good enough for her to do it with me.
> This would be a pretty natural human reaction from either gender.
> 
> However if she actually communicated with me and said..
> 
> "I did it for him because I was young and insecure so I dealt with the pain because I felt I had to" or "You're larger than he was and I could barely take it from him" those are answers that would immediately wipe that rising insecurity from my mind.


Yes, ideally that would definitely be the best result. Hopefully in most solid relationships that would be the end result.




> ... I'm trying to show you that it's not always about entitlement, in fact I'd think it was more often about feelings of inadequacy and insecurity.
> Feelings we all have at times, feelings that can cause resentment and self-esteem problems in our lovers.
> Feelings that can be mitigated with just the slightest bit of open, honest communication.


If my husband, or anyone important came to me and said, "This is really bothering me. Would you help me out? Can you tell me why you don't want to do it anymore? It is in my head and I just need to make some sense of it":

It doesn't even matter what it is, really. Yes, of course. 



> She doesn't owe him an explanation at all but if she loves and cares for him she'll give him one* if he's deserving of her love and care*.


Yes, I can definitely go with this as well. I especially like the bold.  

I also notice that you have no "She owes me"" or 'She'd do it for dirtball joe but not for me!" going on, and that makes a big difference (reference the bold.)


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Maricha75 said:


> Completely agree with this. So why not say that when the subject comes up, rather than just "I don't want to"? It would save a WHOLE lot of misunderstanding, anger, pain, etc.


"I don't want to have anal sex" 
and 
"I don't want to have anal sex because of the potential for damage and pain" 

Has the same result. No anal sex. If the first answer would cause anger and pain then I would suggest talking about it, rationally, while leaving out the entitlement and owing and past partners parts. 

For some people no matter what you said it wouldn't be good enough.
One answer will lead to 
"But you weren't worried about it with HIM" "Why does he get more than me?"
and on and on and on....
Some times it's best just to leave it at "I don't want to" and figure out if it's a deal breaker.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> Two things: One, you are ignoring the relationship dynamic. Hubby feels that wife has set dirtbag above him. So it is not just about 'giving the whiner what he wants'. It is that by keeping relationship damaging secrets, wifey has to find a way to fix this instead of just saying 'shut up'.


So to “fix this” the wife has to endure painful anal sex? Or at least offer up painful anal sex. 

Hubby, instead of having concern for his wife, takes on the attitude that she is putting some other guy “above him”. … Because she will not allow her husband to hurt her. 

Why is it not enough that she has told him that FOR HER anal sex is painful.


----------



## Maricha75

staarz21 said:


> That's ok though because that's what you prefer.
> 
> I just don't really care about spending time worrying about what my H did before he met me. He doesn't care about what I did before I met him either. It just isn't worth the worry for me.


I don't worry about my husband's past, either... he has no past to worry about. 


staarz21 said:


> That's ok though because that's what you prefer.
> 
> I just don't really care about spending time worrying about what my H did before he met me. He doesn't care about what I did before I met him either. It just isn't worth the worry for me.


----------



## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> (Do you watch Broad Street on Comedy Central? There was an awesome episode about guys and "pegging' V


Haven't seen it but I'll check it out, sounds entertaining.



> I also notice that you have no "She owes me"" or 'She'd do it for dirtball joe but not for me!" going on, and that makes a big difference (reference the bold.)


Yeah, I think that might be where the two opposing factions in this little debate might be misunderstanding each other.

Glad we got past it.


----------



## Maricha75

Could somebody PLEASE explain to me why these threads invariably devolve into the evils of anal sex??


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> Do you trust him? If you trust him, you should feel safe enough to explain to him why. You could EASILY explain, when the subject comes up (before he even tries to tie you up) that because of a traumatic event, that is off the table. If it was something you were willing to try, then I could see it playing out how Tacoma described with his wife. If completely off the table, but the subject is brought up, I really don't understand why saying "I don't do that because of a traumatic event." is unacceptable.


You keep ignoring what I have said. *I have said that of course it is better if an explanation is given.*

But as we see in the discussion with JCD above. Often times an explanation is not enough. :scratchhead:


ETA: I re-wrote some of this because my slant was wrong.

According to JCD giving "a nice long graphic explanation to my husband about the history including awful details..... I would outline exactly how much I hate that particular act."

It's not acceptable because hubby feels that she is putting some other guy ahead of him. So the wife should offer up anal sex to prove that she puts her husband first. Now he might decline knowing that she hates it. Or he might not.. he might go for it just to put the claim on her body.



JCD said:


> And frankly, if my wife told me something like that, I would think the gesture was enough of a sacrifice and would NOT take the offering.


Now why is it that she say to make a sacrifice? Well because her husband still feels cheated and hurt.


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> Could somebody PLEASE explain to me why these threads invariably devolve into the evils of anal sex??


Because it's a topic that has had some pretty long threads here on TAM. It's something in which the very topic of past sexual acts has brought up some posts that are down right unbelievable.

But, we are doing good here, it's not gone to rape how women bring it on themselves because they go out alone, dress like floozies and get drunk... but there is still time. :rofl:


----------



## tacoma

EleGirl said:


> OK so let's change the scenario. Your wife finds using a strap on in your back side to be a huge sexual turn on.
> 
> So are you going to let her do it to show her how important she is to you?


What is it with all you chicks and the pegging?!


If I didn't want her pegging me I think I'd at least tell her why I didn't want her pegging me.


----------



## tacoma

Maricha75 said:


> Could somebody PLEASE explain to me why these threads invariably devolve into the evils of anal sex??


You call it devolve, I call it evolve and be quiet Maricha it's turning me on.

:rofl:


----------



## GusPolinski

JCD said:


> Two things: One, you are ignoring the relationship dynamic. Hubby feels that wife has set dirtbag above him. So it is not just about 'giving the whiner what he wants'. It is that by keeping relationship damaging secrets, wifey has to find a way to fix this instead of just saying 'shut up'.
> 
> Two: I occasionally go into the internet...and I find pages (and pages and pages) of sexual instruction. People who discuss anal sex. Who discuss how it can be made pain free. How some women LIKE IT. How there are correct and incorrect ways to do it.
> 
> I have not seen a single page about how to kick a person in the groin without it hurting.
> 
> Your analogy has a serious flaw.


LOL. Thanks. I was just getting ready to reply w/ this.


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> Of course but then this would be a moot point but realistically the oral example isn't realistic because anyone would discover this incompatability by the third sexual encounter.
> 
> 
> 
> Careful with those assumptions, I'm a 21st century man.
> 
> 
> Lets get more realistic.
> How about anal sex?
> It's still kinda taboo a bit, something that might not come up in the beginning of a relationship.
> 
> If I had attempted anal on my wife (Because yes I like it) and she refused I'd be good without an explanation because hell, lots of people find it uncomfortable, painful, or just fear the idea so I'd probably just figure she was like that too.
> In other words I enjoy anal sex but it isn't a dealbreaker for me if she said no.
> 
> However if I discovered anal sex was a mainstay in her prevous relationship I be justified to believe she obviously didn't fear it or find it painful.
> 
> I'd want to know what the deal was.
> 
> If she said "I just don't want to" we're back to my insecurity being peaked thinking I wasn't desirable enough or good enough for her to do it with me.
> 
> This would be a pretty natural human reaction from either gender.
> 
> However if she actually communicated with me and said..
> 
> "I did it for him because I was young and insecure so I dealt with the pain because I felt I had to" or "You're larger than he was and I could barely take it from him" those are answers that would immediately wipe that rising insecurity from my mind.


The scenario we are talking about is not someone who reacts in the above manner. Instead we are talking about guys who would not accept this... who continue to feel that she owes it to him.

Look at JCD's example in which he thinks that a woman who finds it painful should still offer to give him anal just to prove her love to him. Why because the ego of the fictional guy is so badly hurt that the only way to heal it is for his wife to suffer the pain.



tacoma said:


> I understand that and agree with it but I'm trying to show you that it's not always about entitlement, in fact I'd think it was more often about feelings of inadequacy and insecurity.
> 
> Feelings we all have at times, feelings that can cause resentment and self-esteem problems in our lovers.
> Feelings that can be mitigated with just the slightest bit of open, honest communication.
> 
> She doesn't owe him an explanation at all but if she loves and cares for him she'll give him one if he's deserving of her love and care.


Of course it's not always about entitlement. But there are some guys who it is. There are some guys who do not care if it hurts, if it scares her, or whatever. They want what they want. That's who we are talking about.


----------



## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> Some yes.
> 
> If that's the answer I get I think it's perfectly natural for my next question to be "Why not?".
> 
> *If she had said "I just don't want to" then I would know there was something she was hiding from me and that would affect our relationship in the long run.*
> 
> If she had said "I had a bad experience with it" my mind would be settled and it probably wouldn't have come up again.


Huh. Not to be devils' advocate, but I think bondage, like anal, is something that a lot of people just don't want to try out. Sometimes there is no story other than they are just "Vanilla". 

So if she said "I really don't want to do anal or bondage. It's not my thing" and that was her honest answer, would that be a different story? Would this have signaled you to move on due to different values (conservative vs a little adventurous)?

I am just thinking out loud here. It's not a real question or meant to be challenging. I just think for me, I would have taken the guy at his word and moved on. I never bothered to try to dig more deeply.

It's been an interesting winding thread.


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> What is it with all you chicks and the pegging?!
> 
> 
> If I didn't want her pegging me I think I'd at least tell her why I didn't want her pegging me.


Ok we are talking about a woman who finds anal sex painful.

But he thinks she needs to offer to do it, pain or not to heal the relationship.

So I had to come up with something that he would probably not like. He did not like the ball kicking example.. although he thought it was a fine example when he used it.

So I came back with pegging because I'm assuming he would not want that. Now I could be wrong... but it's a more 'equitable' example.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

RoseAglow said:


> Huh. Not to be devils' advocate, but I think bondage, like anal, is something that a lot of people just don't want to try out. Sometimes there is no story other than they are just "Vanilla".
> 
> So if she said "I really don't want to do anal or bondage. It's not my thing" and that was her honest answer, would that be a different story? Would this have signaled you to move on due to different values (conservative vs a little adventurous)?
> 
> I am just thinking out loud here. It's not a real question or meant to be challenging. I just think for me, I would have taken the guy at his word and moved on. I never bothered to try to dig more deeply.
> 
> It's been an interesting winding thread.


:iagree:

Some things I just don't want to do. Being interrogated about them isn't going to help.


----------



## RoseAglow

tacoma said:


> What is it with all you chicks and the pegging?!


As you said- it's the 21st Century. Pegging is on the table. 

(I have never seen Pegging as entertainment until than dang show!!!! It is hysterical!!)



> If I didn't want her pegging me I think I'd at least tell her why I didn't want her pegging me.


But, would "It might hurt" or "I don't want to, it's not my thing" be enough? Or would she search the internet and found literally thousands of pages on How to Peg Without Pain? And then -is your wife entitled to trying it out on you or at least a better explanation than "No thanks. Not into it?"


----------



## EleGirl

RoseAglow said:


> As you said- it's the 21st Century. Pegging is on the table.
> 
> (I have never seen Pegging as entertainment until than dang show!!!! It is hysterical!!)
> 
> 
> 
> But, would "It might hurt" or "I don't want to, it's not my thing" be enough? Or would she search the internet and found literally thousands of pages on How to Peg Without Pain? And then -is your wife entitled to trying it out on you or at least a better explanation than "No thanks. Not into it?"


Even if he says "it might hurt" or "I don't want to, it's not my thing" he has to offer it up on time to prove to her that he loves her. Isn't that the way it's done?


----------



## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> You keep ignoring what I have said. *I have said that of course it is better if an explanation is given.*
> 
> But as we see in the discussion with JCD above. Often times an explanation is not enough.
> 
> "I don't do anal sex because it's painful". According to JCD this is not acceptable. It's not acceptable because hubby feels that she is putting some other guy ahead of him. So the wife should offer up anal sex to prove that she puts her husband first. Now he might decline knowing it hurts her. Or he might not.. he might go for it just to put the claim on her body.


No, I haven't ignored what you said. You asked me questions and I answered. If you trust your SO, you should be able, at the very least, to tell him that bondage is off the table due to a traumatic experience. And when you are ready, you will explain what happened. But it is off the table, and you have given an explanation, not simply "I don't want to."

I didn't read his post that way at all. What I read is that she explains in excruciating detail exactly why she didn't like anal... what happened to change her mind about it forever. But his was in response to YOU stating simply "I don't like it" and expecting that will suffice. And offering to do it anyway, again, is with the impression she just doesn't like it. If it was PAINFUL, then no. I didn't see him say anything at all about being owed the chance if she was hurt at all. 

This is why I think you should be honest about your past and IF it is used against you, then you know he/she is not the one for you.


----------



## RoseAglow

EleGirl said:


> Even if he says "it might hurt" or "I don't want to, it's not my thing" he has to offer it up on time to prove to her that he loves her. Isn't that the way it's done?


Well, he might offer to do it, just to shut her up and prove how much of an a$$ she is for asking...but if she's kind she won't take him up on it. If she does take him up, he's SOL. 

I am just sh!t-stirring now. Just teasing a bit. 

I'll take my guy and be extremely grateful for him. It truly is "different strokes for different folks."


----------



## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> Huh. Not to be devils' advocate, but I think bondage, like anal, is something that a lot of people just don't want to try out. Sometimes there is no story other than they are just "Vanilla".


"I'm just not into kinky stuff" would be a fine answer.
One that would probably cause me to move on eventually because while I'm no kinkster or fetishist exploring and expanding a sexual relationship is important to me so this would be a red flag

Not necessarily a deal breaker until I found out whether or not she was into pushing her boundaries in any way at all.



> So if she said "I really don't want to do anal or bondage. It's not my thing" and that was her honest answer, would that be a different story? Would this have signaled you to move on due to different values (conservative vs a little adventurous)?


Same as above, anal and bondage aren't deal breakers for me but it would alert me to the possibility she was too vanilla for me.
I'd stick around to find out just how vanilla before dumping the relationship though.


----------



## tripad

norajane said:


> You want to be considered abusive like Josh?
> 
> This is the precise attitude I mentioned in my previous posts about running from someone who wants to know a catalog of positions. Immediately, the person asking feels like he isn't getting what he is "entitled to" or "deserves" because someone else "got that consideration."
> 
> If a guy is going to feel cheated out of something he thinks he "deserves" regardless of what I want or don't want to do with my body now, then I want no part of that discussion.


:iagree::iagree:
and not another date .


----------



## bandit.45

All I want to k ow about a woman's sexual past is if she has had any STDs or is HPV positive. 

I don't want my little chubby crystallizing and snapping off and rolling out my pant leg onto the floor in the middle of a business meeting. That would be awkward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

Lila said:


> Let's move away from painful or traumatic sex acts for just a second.
> 
> Here's an example that neither hurts or is considered traumatic. Swallowing.
> 
> Is "I don't want to do it because it's disgusting" an acceptable reason for not wanting to swallow?


Absolutely. Personally, I prefer swallowing because then the taste is gone faster than when spit out. And it was easy explaining why to my husband, too. There is also no reason you couldn't explain WHY you feel it's disgusting, either.


----------



## Maricha75

Lila said:


> That's just it, I don't have any other reason for why I feel it's disgusting. It just is to me.
> 
> That's why I asked the question. No pain, no humiliation, no nothing else really. Just a mental thing.
> 
> I wonder if the men who have posted that a valid reason is necessary for rejecting certain acts would accept my simple explanation.


That would be like my saying "I won't do anal because I believe it us exit only". Perfectly acceptable reason. And both more than simply "I just don't want to."


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> No, I haven't ignored what you said. You asked me questions and I answered. If you trust your SO, you should be able, at the very least, to tell him that bondage is off the table due to a traumatic experience. And when you are ready, you will explain what happened. But it is off the table, and you have given an explanation, not simply "I don't want to."
> 
> I didn't read his post that way at all. What I read is that she explains in excruciating detail exactly why she didn't like anal... what happened to change her mind about it forever. But his was in response to YOU stating simply "I don't like it" and expecting that will suffice. And offering to do it anyway, again, is with the impression she just doesn't like it. If it was PAINFUL, then no. I didn't see him say anything at all about being owed the chance if she was hurt at all.
> 
> This is why I think you should be honest about your past and IF it is used against you, then you know he/she is not the one for you.


Ok, so he was talking not about her saying that it was painful but that she "hates it like poison". And she "explains to him in excruciating detail exactly why she didn't like anal... what happened to change her mind about it forever."

In JCD's example he gives what he thinks is the right response. That although she hates this like poison she would offer to do it one time. why?

Because he's hurt because he thinks she is putting some ex ahead of him. 

In JCD's example the husband is hurt because the wife did it before and she should offer to do it one time because the husband is hurt because he feels 



JCD said:


> And frankly, if my wife told me something like that, I would think the gesture was enough of a sacrifice and would NOT take the offering.


I personally, do not understand a person who would be upset and feel that their wife put her ex ahead of him. She just explained her issues and why she hates it like poison.

Why does she have to sacrifice because she hates something like poison?


----------



## tacoma

Lila said:


> Is "I don't want to do it because it's disgusting" an acceptable reason for not wanting to swallow?


Hmm, yes and no.

I think it could be phrased better.

"I don't want to do it because I don't like the taste/feeling".

I wouldn't use "disgusting" as a descriptive for any of my lovers sexual bodily functions even if I feel that way.


----------



## sisters359

In the very opening post, the OP mentioned that men on this site seem to want to know a woman's history if they are considering getting serious with her. 

I've been on and off this site for about 5 years, and I would say the men on here tend toward the insecure--they do an awful lot of male posturing and have fixed notions about men and women being certain ways, etc. I would not ever draw a conclusion about men as a group from the men on here--it's too much a self-selected population.

This is not all men on here, of course, and there are some marvelous exceptions. So I hope no one takes offense at this observation.


----------



## Maricha75

tacoma said:


> Hmm, yes and no.
> 
> I think it could be phrased better.
> 
> "I don't want to do it because I don't like the taste/feeling".
> 
> I wouldn't use "disgusting" as a descriptive for any of my lovers sexual bodily functions even if I feel that way.


Ok, yea, I see what you mean. I agree, word it better.


----------



## tacoma

RoseAglow said:


> But, would "It might hurt" or "I don't want to, it's not my thing" be enough? Or would she search the internet and found literally thousands of pages on How to Peg Without Pain? And then -is your wife entitled to trying it out on you or at least a better explanation than "No thanks. Not into it?"


No she wouldn't be entitled to anything that has to do with my body.

However, I'm beginning to think this subject might not be up my alley.

I'm pretty open sexually and I have a lot of trust in my wife.
More than half of the pleasure I derive from sex/intimacy comes directly from the pleasure I'm giving her
I'm also not opposed to a certain amount of pain and have a high tolerance for it.

I also know if she was really hurting me she'd stop immediately, probably before I could tell her to.

With that said, I wouldn't be opposed to pain if it brought her pleasure (to an extent.)

So, it would appear I'm an outlier where this subject is concerned and I understand that my viewpoint is rare among most humans.

But we're getting back into the circular argument of who is deserving of our love and care and who isn't.

If my wife was the person you describe above who would go to great lengths to manipulate me into doing something I didn't want to do I most probably wouldn't want to make that sacrifice for her because she wouldn't be deserving of it.
We probably wouldn't have lasted as long as we have.

Since she isn't that person, she has earned the trust that allows me to do things with her that make me uncomfortable.

When I was having the love/sex/relationship discussion with my daughter I told her ....

"When someone loves you so much that they're willing to harm themselves for you, it's your responsibility to make certain you never put them in a position to do so."

It's a statement about trust and what is required to earn it.


----------



## RoseAglow

Tacoma, I was teasing with that post. It was a direct play on a few posts earlier in the thread. 

I hope that in Real Life, you are not an outlier and much more the norm. Certainly in my own life, I have not come across any guy who would go to great lengths to manipulate me into doing something I didn't want to do. 

That is why it can be so alarming to read about people who will do so, or at least those are my interpretations of their posts.



tacoma said:


> If my wife was the person you describe above who would go to great lengths to manipulate me into doing something I didn't want to do I most probably wouldn't want to make that sacrifice for her because she wouldn't be deserving of it.
> We probably wouldn't have lasted as long as we have.


----------



## GusPolinski

EleGirl said:


> OK so let's change the scenario. Your wife finds using a strap on in your back side to be a huge sexual turn on.
> 
> So are you going to let her do it to show her how important she is to you?


Hmm. How big is it?

Wait... what? No!

Seriously, though... she got any nerve endings on the tip of that thing?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Hmm. How big is it?
> 
> Wait... what? No!
> 
> Seriously, though... she got any nerve endings on the tip of that thing?


Because when it comes right down to it, it is all about his pleasure.


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> Hmm. How big is it?
> 
> Wait... what? No!
> 
> Seriously, though... she got any nerve endings on the tip of that thing?


It would not matter if she has nerve endings on the tip of that thing or not. The brain is the biggest and most complex sex organ we have. Great sexual pleasure can be derived from visual and other types of stimulation. Watching yourself doing this could be quite a turn on to some people. That's what it's about right? Getting turned sexually, right?

This is what porn is all about. No one who watches porn has their own nerve endings of any kind affected by the porn... it's all about the visual and the brain's reaction to the visual.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Because when it comes right down to it, it is all about his pleasure.


So it ALL has to be about HER pleasure? You totally missed the point...


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> All I want to k ow about a woman's sexual past is if she has had any STDs or is HPV positive.
> 
> I don't want my little chubby crystallizing and snapping off and rolling out my pant leg onto the floor in the middle of a business meeting. That would be awkward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've left meetings w/ a bit of vendor swag, but it's usually of the pen, keychain, or miscellaneous USB doohickey variety.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Because when it comes right down to it, it is all about his pleasure.


You read that all wrong. That's cool, though... I can break it down:



GusPolinski said:


> Hmm. How big is it? *<--- Joke*
> 
> Wait... what? No! *<--- Continuation and conclusion of joke*
> 
> Seriously, though... she got any nerve endings on the tip of that thing? *<--- Wherein I imply that, due to a lack of nerve endings present in the aforementioned faux phallus, the female partner wielding it couldn't possibly derive any direct physical pleasure from wielding it... at least not on the male.*


And, now that I've explained it, it's not funny anymore.


----------



## GusPolinski

I was wrong. It's still pretty funny.

:smthumbup:


----------



## GusPolinski

Maricha75 said:


> *So it ALL has to be about HER pleasure?* You totally missed the point...


To be fair, it typically is for me. Hers feeds mine... and makes it WAY more intense.


----------



## Ripper

Not much going on in the forum right now, so against my personal policy I venture into the Ladies Lounge to see whats going on.



EleGirl said:


> OK so let's change the scenario. Your wife finds using a strap on in your back side to be a huge sexual turn on.
> 
> So are you going to let her do it to show her how important she is to you?


And I'm done.










P.S.
Never asked a woman her sexual history, but have been asked several times. Must be because I'm so studly.


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> No she wouldn't be entitled to anything that has to do with my body.
> 
> However, I'm beginning to think this subject might not be up my alley.
> 
> I'm pretty open sexually and I have a lot of trust in my wife.
> More than half of the pleasure I derive from sex/intimacy comes directly from the pleasure I'm giving her
> I'm also not opposed to a certain amount of pain and have a high tolerance for it.
> 
> I also know if she was really hurting me she'd stop immediately, probably before I could tell her to.
> 
> With that said, I wouldn't be opposed to pain if it brought her pleasure (to an extent.)
> 
> So, it would appear I'm an outlier where this subject is concerned and I understand that my viewpoint is rare among most humans.


I think that you do not understand what is mean by the pain that I am talking about here in the example of anal sex.

Anal sex can be very pleasurable for the person receiving until something goes wrong. And when it does go wrong, it goes very wrong. Think of the pain that would be caused by shoving a pike up your rear end. It’s a sharp jab that knocks the breath out of you. Along with it comes things like anal fissures or anal prolapse. Then for days/weeks afterwards you get to have excruciating bowel movements, a lot of bleeding, swelling, infection and fever. Thinks like surgery could be required to fix the damage.

Now tell me, are you willing to go through that kind of pain so that you can bring your wife a pleasure? If so how often are you willing to do this to your body?


----------



## JCD

RoseAglow said:


> Back to the oral example, if I really cared about getting oral and my guy told me he wasn't interested, then I would absolutely take him at his word. I'd have to find someone else.
> 
> If I sort of cared and accepted that he didn't do it, and decided that he was worth the "sacrifice", I might ask him if there was anything I could do to tempt him. But probably not.


The problem is that in real relationships, people can change midstream.

Wife/hubby in the initial stages of a relationship grudgingly did oral on the other and the person who picked 'sacrificed' by saying 'Okay...I can accept only getting oral a few times a year. Better than nothing and I really love them so..."

Except 'grudging' becomes 'ain't going to happen ever again'.

But that is outside the purview of this conversation really.


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> To be fair, it typically is for me. Hers feeds mine... and makes it WAY more intense.


I would think that for her it's all about your pleasure because your feeds hers. 

It should go both ways.

That's my experience anyway.


----------



## GusPolinski

EleGirl said:


> I would think that for her it's all about your pleasure because your feeds hers.
> 
> It should go both ways.
> 
> That's my experience anyway.


You'd think so, right? But hey, it's like I say...

"Should" ain't "is".

She is and always has been pretty reserved. I chalk it up to a very repressive upbringing. We've had some pretty major breakthroughs in the past few years, though.

Anyway, I'm good w/ the current state of things. And it seems she is as well.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Then Tacoma comes along and says that he’s an outlier because he’s not opposed to pain if it brought her pleasure (to an extent).
> 
> I see this is just one more male saying that basically, women complaining about the pain of anal sex are just being silly. What’s a little pain if your lover gets pleasure???
> 
> Since when was I taking about a little bit of pain?


Then how do you explain women who do like it if it's always painful?

How do you explain how samyeagers (IIRC) wife who didn't like X with her prior partner...but likes it with him?

And in case you didn't know...guys come in a variety of sizes. Just saying.

How is it possible that a wife is allowed to change to hating anal, for example, but not possible for her to change the other way?

Using that metric, if you husband says he does not like spinach, you should never ever serve him spinach. Even if it's not much spinach. 

Because of the same rationale a woman uses when serving spinach to her veggie phobic husband: maybe he changed his mind. (The other good one is 'I know better than him what he need')

This is boring!

Using that metric of 'once and done' on dislikes:

Never force hubby to try anew restaurant because he might not like it. Even if you want to try. "Who cares if hubby vomits at couscous...I want to try Libian food."

Never make him visit relatives he doesn't like (honestly, some relatives I'd rather be sodomized than visit) "who cares if hubby hates my father. I haven't seen mom in a while and I don't want to answer awkward questions. So hubby can suck it!"

Never force him to see a movie he doesn't want to see.

Never assign him a chore which is optional that you think is necessary but he does not. "Who cares if I am making hubby blow three weekends of his precious free time? I want crown moulding."

If you want to be absolutist on personal autonomy, then you need to 100% respect his too.

And couples sacrifice some discomfort to the other all the time.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> Then how do you explain women who do like it if it's always painful?
> 
> How do you explain how samyeagers (IIRC) wife who didn't like X with her prior partner...but likes it with him?
> 
> And in case you didn't know...guys come in a variety of sizes. Just saying.
> 
> How is it possible that a wife is allowed to change to hating anal, for example, but not possible for her to change the other way?
> 
> Using that metric, if you husband says he does not like spinach, you should never ever serve him spinach. Even if it's not much spinach.
> 
> Because of the same rationale a woman uses when serving spinach to her veggie phobic husband: maybe he changed his mind. (The other good one is 'I know better than him what he need')
> 
> This is boring!
> 
> Using that metric of 'once and done' on dislikes:
> 
> Never force hubby to try anew restaurant because he might not like it. Even if you want to try. "Who cares if hubby vomits at couscous...I want to try Libian food."
> 
> Never make him visit relatives he doesn't like (honestly, some relatives I'd rather be sodomized than visit) "who cares if hubby hates my father. I haven't seen mom in a while and I don't want to answer awkward questions. So hubby can suck it!"
> 
> Never force him to see a movie he doesn't want to see.
> 
> Never assign him a chore which is optional that you think is necessary but he does not. "Who cares if I am making hubby blow three weekends of his precious free time? I want crown moulding."
> 
> If you want to be absolutist on personal autonomy, then you need to 100% respect his too.
> 
> And couples sacrifice some discomfort to the other all the time.


I am so disturbed by this post. 

Firstly if my partner hates spinach I don't force him to eat it. 

Neither of us eat things we don't like. We are open. Minded and try new things all the time, however there are some things both of us just won't eat. And that's cool.

This still is not compatible with anal. This is something that can very seriously harm you and can be extremely painful. Most people who have it experience bleeding etc and it can severely damage the anus. 

Please if you are going to compare at least make it realistic. 

Also no one owes anybody anything, and anyone who would cajole a woman (or man) into having anal is a straight up as$. If you love someone respect them and love them, stop trying to mark your territory and instead treat others as human beings. (Not you specifically any one who is [email protected] enough to treat another this way) .


----------



## tacoma

EleGirl said:


> I think that you do not understand what is mean by the pain that I am talking about here in the example of anal sex.
> 
> Anal sex can be very pleasurable for the person receiving until something goes wrong. And when it does go wrong, it goes very wrong. Think of the pain that would be caused by shoving a pike up your rear end. It’s a sharp jab that knocks the breath out of you. Along with it comes things like anal fissures or anal prolapse. Then for days/weeks afterwards you get to have excruciating bowel movements, a lot of bleeding, swelling, infection and fever. Thinks like surgery could be required to fix the damage.
> 
> Now tell me, are you willing to go through that kind of pain so that you can bring your wife a pleasure? If so how often are you willing to do this to your body?


Elegirl, after reading my "contributions" to this thread do you really think I'm making these statements from the position of a novice concerning anal sex?



It's a subject I'm well versed in, from both perspectives.


----------



## JCD

I want to address this idea that something is 'too traumatic' to discuss.

This is a BS concept for two reasons.

1) I will assume that the person citing this is being legitimate. If something is so traumatic that it's going to leave you a gibbering mess on the floor by 'revisiting' whatever, than your spouse NEEDS to know this, just like they would need to know about a bee sting allergy or epilepsy in case your triggering event comes up so they are not left totally in the dark

We had one gent tied up by his wife and tormented for an hour in bondage. Twice. The man has scars. Any NEW woman in his life should be aware that sneaking a bit of fun cuffs into the bed as a kinky surprise? BAD IDEA!

2) Ahem...now let's talk about the other reason something is 'too traumatic'. What it means is ' I want to delegitimize this as a topic of conversation and since I have nothing but my personal preferences to enforce this, I will cite 'trauma'.

I am reminded of Fred Sanford clutching his chest saying 'this is the big one!' Or some 19th century woman citing 'the vapors'. Essentially a way to shut down all conversation instead of having an awkward conversation.

Quick anecdote: wife wanted to tie me up. Had done it the other way, but it was a first for me. I thought I would hate it.

And I did. Couldn't concentrate in the sex and had claustrophobic flashbacks to when some big kids next door trapped me under an overturned wheelbarrow for what felt like an eternity.

If wife ever asks me to do it again, I'll say yes as long as it's not a common thing. Because I love her and it's something she wants, even knowing it's not comfortable for me. Because I'm an adult and you need to get over mere 'feelings' somethpimes.

Because in a relationship, sometimes you take one for the team.


----------



## JCD

*LittleDeer* said:


> I am so disturbed by this post.
> 
> Firstly if my partner hates spinach I don't force him to eat it.
> 
> Neither of us eat things we don't like. We are open. Minded and try new things all the time, however there are some things both of us just won't eat. And that's cool.
> 
> This still is not compatible with anal. This is something that can very seriously harm you and can be extremely painful. Most people who have it experience bleeding etc and it can severely damage the anus.
> 
> Please if you are going to compare at least make it realistic.
> 
> Also no one owes anybody anything, and anyone who would cajole a woman (or man) into having anal is a straight up as$. If you love someone respect them and love them, stop trying to mark your territory and instead treat others as human beings. (Not you specifically any one who is [email protected] enough to treat another this way) .


Little Deer, at this point I could say kittens were cute and you'd find a way to disagree.


----------



## JCD

FrenchFry said:


> Dude, that's pretty much how it works. What relationships are you in that you are constantly subverted to do things that you don't like or want?


It is a two way street. What world are these ladies living in where they cite the idea that they should never even be asked twice to do something they may not like?


----------



## TiggyBlue

JCD said:


> It is a two way street. What world are these ladies living in where they cite the idea that they should never even be asked twice to do something they may not like?


No one said they can't be asked twice to do something, just that they can say no twice.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> Little Deer, at this point I could say kittens were cute and you'd find a way to disagree.


That's very condescending and incorrect. 

Obviously my post was close to home.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> Then how do you explain women who do like it if it's always painful?


I did not say that it’s always painful for all women. I said that for some women it’s painful. Often it becomes painful AFTER the woman experiences some physical trauma to the anus/retum/colon: … fissures, colon perforation, anal prolapse. If the receiver has hemorrhoids it can be very painful. A person whose has experienced these types of injuries/problems will most likely have a lot of pain form anal sex for the rest of their lives.

Only about 5% to 10% of women engage in anal sex. The experiences of such a small percentage should not be used to judge all women.

From this line of thinking, I guess you just think that women lie when they say that they experience pain from anal sex. And after all there are over 1000 websites on the internet saying that anal sex does not hurt. We all know that if it’s on the internet it’s 100% true all the time for everyone.



JCD said:


> How do you explain how samyeagers (IIRC) wife who didn't like X with her prior partner...but likes it with him?


I don’t need to explain it. I’m not his wife. If you want intimate details about his wife, I suggest that you ask her. Although I’m not sure that samyeager would to ok with you asking her such an intimate question. 

However, her not liking it at one time is very much different than experiencing pain. Any person, man or woman, has the right to not want to do and not like any sex act. They also have the right to change their mind about it at any time. And, if it’s painful for them.. they have the right to not engage in it because of pain.

Not liking something and not wanting to engage in something due to pain are two very different things.


JCD said:


> And in case you didn't know...guys come in a variety of sizes. Just saying.


Yep I must be lying about pain. I just need to find a guy with the right size tool. Can I find one with interchangeable tools? That might help. And it would be kinda cool… 


JCD said:


> How is it possible that a wife is allowed to change to hating anal, for example, but not possible for her to change the other way?


A wife is allowed to do anything she wants. That’s the point here. If she does not like it, that’s her choice. If she decides to try it and she likes it, that’s also her choice. Have I ever said that a woman has no right to change her mind on something? Nope. Both men and women have the right to change their feelings about liking/disliking anything.


JCD said:


> Using that metric of 'once and done' on dislikes:


I’m responding to this rant because it’s so off base that its mind boggling.
Spinach: My ex hates eggplant. I love eggplant parmesan. Out of respect for him I never made any thing with eggplant if he was eating a meal. Why on earth would a try to force anyone to eat something that they do not like?



JCD said:


> Never force hubby to try anew restaurant because he might not like it. Even if you want to try. "Who cares if hubby vomits at couscous...I want to try Libian food."


Now why on earth would I force hubby to eat in a restaurant that he does not like? What a mean and rude thing to do. And why would hubby be so much a doormat as to go along with being treated like this? 

We talk about it and agree on a place that we both like.

If I want to try Libian food and he hates it, I have friend who will go with me. Or I can go alone. 


JCD said:


> Never make him visit relatives he doesn't like (honestly, some relatives I'd rather be sodomized than visit) "who cares if hubby hates my father. I haven't seen mom in a while and I don't want to answer awkward questions. So hubby can suck it!"


If hubby does not want to visit my relatives, that’s fine with me. It’s not my place to force him to do anything. He’s his own person.


JCD said:


> Never force him to see a movie he doesn't want to see.


Again, why would I do this? 


JCD said:


> Never assign him a chore which is optional that you think is necessary but he does not.


Assign chores to him? I’m not the boss of him. He can do whatever chores he wants. I’ll do the ones I want.


JCD said:


> "Who cares if I am making hubby blow three weekends of his precious free time? I want crown moulding."


Again I don’t assign chores. If he does not volunteer to help and I want crown molding badly enough, I can buy it and install it on my own. Shoot I can even paint it all by my lonesome. Or I can hire someone to do it.


JCD said:


> If you want to be absolutist on personal autonomy, then you need to 100% respect his too.


What makes you think that I would not 100% respect the personal autonomy of a man I was married to… or any other human?


JCD said:


> And couples sacrifice some discomfort to the other all the time.


Force? Force? Make someone do? Are you suggesting now that a man should force his wife to do sexual things that she does not want to do? Is that what you are getting at?


Does your wife force you to do things like the above that you do not want to do? If so, why do you allow her to force you? This way of thinking is so strange to me that I cannot wrap my mind around it. Force? Really? Why force a spouse to do anything. It’s not the place on one spouse to force the other to do anything. 

Equating sex with things like installing crown molding and eating spinach is, well very strange. 

I’m not even sure what your argument is here except that women who say that anal is painful are lying.

Is it that you think men should be able to force women to do things sexually that they dislike, don’t want to do or find painful?

Is it that you think that would should sacrifice and do sexual things that that they don’t want to do, dislike or find painful because that’s just their duty in marriage?


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> Elegirl, after reading my "contributions" to this thread do you really think I'm making these statements from the position of a novice concerning anal sex?
> 
> 
> 
> It's a subject I'm well versed in, from both perspectives.


I think that your contributions on this thread have been very even handed. You obviously live your wife and have a good relationship with her.

If you are willing to put up with the types of things I described, then it's your thing. Go for it.

Many people are not willing to repeatedly reinjure their bodies that way.


----------



## tacoma

> Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
> Then Tacoma comes along and says that he’s an outlier because he’s not opposed to pain if it brought her pleasure (to an extent).
> 
> *I see this is just one more male saying that basically, women complaining about the pain of anal sex are just being silly. What’s a little pain if your lover gets pleasure???*
> 
> Since when was I taking about a little bit of pain?


You could see it that way I suppose, if you completely twist the meaning of the very plain words I posted in order to support a preconceived agenda.

Because there is no other way to come to the meaning you're projecting onto my words.

Especially when you have obviously been reading every post I've made in this thread and I know there is no way you could have missed the fact that I've repeatedly and objectively stated the exact opposite message to the misogynistic bull**** you seek to attribute to my post.

But hey, don't let that fact stop you.
We all know nobody else is paying attention to what I actually posted numerous times throughout this discussion so they're likely to take your argument as truth instead of the blatant disingenuous crap that it is.

</s>


----------



## tacoma

EleGirl said:


> I think that your contributions on this thread have been very even handed. You obviously live your wife and have a good relationship with her.
> 
> If you are willing to put up with the types of things I described, then it's your thing. Go for it.
> 
> Many people are not willing to repeatedly reinjure their bodies that way.


Which is exactly why I said I was an outlier and specifically stated my thoughts on the matter were unlike most peoples.

But yet again you twist my words to fit an idea you are trying to convince people of.

I never said I was willing to injure or reinjure myself in any way whatsoever.

In fact, yet again I've said the precise opposite at least twice.

You know who turned me on to anal sex?

My wife, she loves it and is the one who brought it into our sex life.

I know that can't possibly be true, why would a woman want such a thing herself unless of course she was pressured or forced into it by a man.

No, she must be enduring this horrible painful and damaging sex act because I forced or threatened her into it in some way.

Of course the poor little girl isn't capable of her own agency.
What woman is?


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> You could see it that way I suppose, if you completely twist the meaning of the very plain words I posted in order to support a preconceived agenda.
> 
> Because there is no other way to come to the meaning you're projecting onto my words.
> 
> Especially when you have obviously been reading every post I've made in this thread and I know there is no way you could have missed the fact that I've repeatedly and objectively stated the exact opposite message to the misogynistic bull**** you seek to attribute to my post.
> 
> But hey, don't let that fact stop you.
> We all know nobody else is paying attention to what I actually posted numerous times throughout this discussion so they're likely to take your argument as truth instead of the blatant disingenuous crap that it is.
> 
> </s>


Tacoma..

I apologize for that post. If you look I deleted it. I write in MS Word and then cut/past in a forum post. 

I had read some post of yours very quickly and wrote that . Then went back are re-read your post. Upon re-reading I realized that I COMPLETELY misunderstood what you wrote. 

I thought that I had deleted those words from MS Word. But some how I ended up posting them by mistake on the forum. A soon as I realized that the I had actually posted something that I did not mean to post... I deleted the post. 

Again I apologize.


----------



## tacoma

EleGirl said:


> Tacoma..
> 
> I apologize for that post. If you look I deleted it. I write in MS Word and then cut/past in a forum post.
> 
> I had read some post of yours very quickly and wrote that . Then went back are re-read your post. Upon re-reading I realized that I COMPLETELY misunderstood what you wrote.
> 
> I thought that I had deleted those words from MS Word. But some how I ended up posting them by mistake on the forum. A soon as I realized that the I had actually posted something that I did not mean to post... I deleted the post.
> 
> Again I apologize.


And I'm sorry for being such a sarcastic **** about it ele but it really bothered me that you'd think that of me after all the discussions we've had around this subject

Sorry


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> Which is exactly why I said I was an outlier and specifically stated my thoughts on the matter were unlike most peoples.
> 
> But yet again you twist my words to fit an idea you are trying to convince people of.
> 
> I never said I was willing to injure or reinjure myself in any way whatsoever.
> In fact, yet again I've said the precise opposite at least twice.


You said that you are willing to endure pain so you are different from most people. 

I tried to explain in more detail what I mean by pain because I find it hard to believe that you would be willing to endure that level of pain. Pain from serious damage, not some minor pain that is reasonable to endure. 

My point is that just maybe when a person says that they do not want to do something because it’s painful, it is actually seriously painful. 

And here you confirm that you are not willing to endure the level of pain I was talking about…. Pain from injury and re-injury.

If you are not willing to endure pain that comes from injury and re-injury, then how are you different from a woman who does not want to engage in anal sex because she does not want to experience that pain and re-injury again? (serious question)



tacoma said:


> You know who turned me on to anal sex?
> 
> My wife, she loves it and is the one who brought it into our sex life.
> 
> I know that can't possibly be true, why would a woman want such a thing herself unless of course she was pressured or forced into it by a man.
> 
> No, she must be enduring this horrible painful and damaging sex act because I forced or threatened her into it in some way.


So your wife likes anal sex. That’s good for her. I liked it until I was seriously injured from it. After that I do not engage in it because I’m not real big on really bad pain and re-injuring myself. 

I have NEVER said that anal sex is painful and damaging in every case. I have said that some people have experienced pain and even damage from anal sex. And that people who have experienced this have the right to not engage in anal sex. 




tacoma said:


> Of course the poor little girl isn't capable of her own agency.
> What woman is?


Now come on. I have never even implied that. Talk about twisting words.

You wife has her own agency. She can have anal sex all she wants.

But you see, I and women who have pain (and injury) from anal sex have our own agency as well. That means that we can chose to not have anal sex, experience the pain and re-injury.


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> And I'm sorry for being such a sarcastic **** about it ele but it really bothered me that you'd think that of me after all the discussions we've had around this subject
> 
> Sorry


Mia culpa


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JCD said:


> I want to address this idea that something is 'too traumatic' to discuss.
> 
> This is a BS concept for two reasons.
> 
> ......



Here's the thing-when discussing sexual likes and dislikes at the beginning of a relationship, there are some things I just won't want to discuss fully yet. 

So a question like "How do you feel about being tied up" 
"No, I do not enjoy that" 
and moving on to the next question is acceptable. 
I don't need to get into the why and the "while I was having sex with an ex......" 
Believe it or not, some people don't want to hear about you having sex with exs. They don't want the details, just anything that matters NOW. 
What your likes and dislikes are. Any STDs. - things relevant to the present. They don't need or want to know about the time Joe stuck it in your butt without warning or when Bob got too carried away trying out BDSM.


----------



## Maricha75

intheory said:


> Wow, that's got to be a bit awkward at family get togethers, and such, huh?


You would think so, but no, not at all.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I have always been 100% comfortable talking to my husband about the past BECAUSE he never used it against me as other boyfriends had. Anal was a good example. I had done it with a previous boyfriend. When DH asked, I said NO WAY. I explained it had been very painful and degrading. His response? I would never ever ask you to do something that made you uncomfortable. 

Fast forward a few years, while it is not super often, I now not only do it but enjoy it. Because I trust him with all my heart not to hurt me.


----------



## staarz21

If my H said I needed to take one for the team to show love in the bedroom, I would point him in the 9,000 other areas of our relationship where I have taken one for the team. "Taking one for the team" doesn't belong in our bedroom where pleasure for BOTH parties is supposed to take place. 

I couldn't imagine asking my H to do something that he didn't like doing in the bedroom. Ever. It wouldn't give me any pleasure at all...and if he didn't enjoy doing it, obviously wouldn't give him pleasure.


----------



## samyeagar

Lila said:


> That's just it, I don't have any other reason for why I feel it's disgusting. It just is to me.
> 
> That's why I asked the question. No pain, no humiliation, no nothing else really. Just a mental thing.
> 
> I wonder if the men who have posted that a valid reason is necessary for rejecting certain acts would accept my simple explanation.


I haven't totally caught up with this thread yet so we may have already moved on from this, but I have a real world example very similar to this. First though...

For myself, and most men, I think the simple answer of I don't swallow because I don't like it would be more than sufficient at face value, and likely would never be mentioned again...unless new information came out that suggested she didn't mind it at all with other men. I would expect a followup conversation with a more detailed reason for the apparent contradiction. Hell, most men would even be fine with the whole 'ever since I had my third kid, it just makes me too nauseous' explanation.

Now for my example...

Early on, when my wife and I were getting to know each other, the subject of sex toys came up. She had a small vibrator and that was it, and all she'd ever had. She expressed some interest in maybe exploring that a bit. I flat out told her that I really wasn't into toys. That was fine for her. A bit disappointing maybe, but certainly not a deal breaker as they were not really something she was into herself, just wanting to experiment a bit. Nothing more was said about them.

Over the next year and a half, we used her vib together one time, and it was somewhat uncomfortable as she knew I didn't really want to, but was doing it purely for her. She never pressed the issue until...

She decided to become a Pure Romance consultant, and as we were going through the catalogs, talking about things, her expressing her curiosity and renewed desire, I decided it was time to come clean before too much slipped out. My ex wife and I had used just about everything in that catalog, and used it frequently. Add to that, some already open insecurities of my wife regarding my ex...the drop dead gorgeous, fit, blonde bombshell. Yeah, all of a sudden, my explanation from early in our relationship just didn't cut it any more.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

intheory said:


> *Everyone is insecure about at least one thing about themselves. In fact, probably a lot of things.
> 
> People who are a bit more open about being insecure are attractive to me. They feel more honest and real. And right away I can relate; 'cause I'm insecure in many ways too.
> 
> Sort of like, "You say 'insecure', like it's a bad thing".*


I, too, believe we ALL have insecurities in one area or another -when we compare ourselves.. it's human nature...I have thought about doing a thread on this ....for more depth.. maybe someday.... to show just how vulnerable we are to such feelings.. if people could JUST be honest with themselves.. (laughing on that one!)

But really I said this in jest..."You can all add myself and Husband to the list of INSECURE ONES too.. I guess I PREFER INSECURE MEN then".. if that's what others want to THINK to make themselves feel good about the other side.. it's not like I can stop them.. 

Blanket statements on ALL who care is wrong... these people do not know our hearts, what is deeply important to us and the WHY's.. sexually speaking there are different world views that will just* never mesh*....nor should they....can we accept this.. 

I asked my H the other night.... "Was you insecure when you are younger, cause you didn’t have experience, you weren't the STUD ...did this play on your mind?"... this was his answer >> "I’m not a dog .. f*cking them & leaving them... that’s just not right"..... he said if he acted like that he would not be a caring person. That's how he judges himself. He expects more from himself to give to a woman.. Not going to fault him for this.... I love him for being that sort of man .

He walked in what he believed in...I see that as honorable...he never's complained once or had regrets he didn't taste other women...but you know.. his answering as he did.. doesn't come off so nice - to those who enjoy the sexual variety, from 1st date sex to ONS to "screw buddy"...

I don't know what to do with that.. Doesn't make anyone more superior over the other...but yeah...we're very different in what we seek, what floats our boats...

Funny about me & the H... I'd want to know the past, get that opened up... he'd never ask, or probe, he's told me this.. he feels enough TIME SPENT should weed out any concerns.. I told him he's too trusting !....Ha ha....but here is the clincher.. I am more inclined to believe people *can change* , whereas my husband.. not so much.


----------



## soccermom2three

staarz21 said:


> If my H said I needed to take one for the team to show love in the bedroom, I would point him in the 9,000 other areas of our relationship where I have taken one for the team. "Taking one for the team" doesn't belong in our bedroom where pleasure for BOTH parties is supposed to take place.
> 
> I couldn't imagine asking my H to do something that he didn't like doing in the bedroom. Ever. It wouldn't give me any pleasure at all...and if he didn't enjoy doing it, obviously wouldn't give him pleasure.



I agree. I don't even ask my husband to go to the mall with me because I know he hates the place, lol.


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## soccermom2three

If I'm doing something I enjoy with another person, (it could be anything, sex act or shopping), the level of my happiness is connected with the other person's happiness. If I know the other person is unhappy then I can't enjoy myself because in the back of my mind that's what I'm thinking about. Making someone do something they don't want to do makes the experience miserable and empty.


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## GusPolinski

soccermom2three said:


> If I'm doing something I enjoy with another person, (it could be anything, sex act or shopping), the level of my happiness is connected with the other person's happiness. If I know the other person is unhappy then I can't enjoy myself because in the back of my mind that's what I'm thinking about. *Making someone do something they don't want to do makes the experience miserable and empty.*


Word.


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## SimplyAmorous

soccermom2three said:


> *If I'm doing something I enjoy with another person, (it could be anything, sex act or shopping), the level of my happiness is connected with the other person's happiness. If I know the other person is unhappy then I can't enjoy myself because in the back of my mind that's what I'm thinking about. * *Making someone do something they don't want to do makes the experience miserable and empty*.


This is Myself & H's mindset to a high degree...He would NEVER ask me to do something where he knew I wouldn't ENJOY it...this would suck any joy he had from the experience - he needs reciprocal giving or he'd put himself down ...

I too, NEED his WANT to be there.. this energies me, very spirit lifting.. It's why I think it's so important to be romantically / socially compatible on a # of fronts from love languages to what is most enjoyable/ exciting for who we are...to share.

Just as one is spirit lifting, the other , knowing they are not "into it" but just pacifying us ... is Spirit crushing....(Pity sex comes to mind)... it reduces the whole experience to "drudgery" ....and that sounds so awful , doesn't it..

For instance.. I LOVE movies, getting lost in a drama/ cuddling... going to the theater .. It's something I ENJOY sharing with my lover..(not my GF's -just not the same!).... kinda a silly one to have high on my list.. But I think it [email protected]#

He loves it too... but what if he didn't ...what if he was gritting his teeth -thinking "OK I gotta make the wife happy tonight -put in a few hours.. Grrrrr"... How sad. 

I think we all have areas we REALLY care about, get excited about (and others -not such a big deal-we can find a friend)...

Say sexually... if a woman primarily orgasms orally.. she darn well better be with a man who LOVES LOVES LOVES eating at the *Y*.... or it's just going to be a sorrowful hurtful experience all the way around...


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## EleGirl

intheory said:


> I agree with the above.
> 
> Everyone is insecure about at least one thing about themselves. In fact, probably a lot of things.
> 
> People who are a bit more open about being insecure are attractive to me. They feel more honest and real. And right away I can relate; 'cause I'm insecure in many ways too.
> 
> Sort of like, "You say 'insecure', like it's a _bad_ thing".


Yes, everyone has insecurities. But the flip side of that is that everyone has the right to decide which insecurities they are willing to deal with when choosing a SO/spouse.


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## JCD

FrenchFry said:


> This is where we absolutely differ.
> 
> If my husband was not just uncomfortable, but having actual psychic harm by anything that we did sexually, I would *never* ask him to get over it "just for me."
> 
> It feels wrong and selfish to do something he would actively dislike to get off.
> 
> Likewise, he has enough respect for me to do the same. Why wouldn't you say no? Why wouldn't you let your wife know that this is something you don't like and not expect her to go "wow, I'm sorry! Let's not do that again--or ever."


And there is the two way street again. I love her enough to do uncomfortable things for her...and she loves me enough not to ask.


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## JCD

TiggyBlue said:


> No one said they can't be asked twice to do something, just that they can say no twice.


That is the price of autonomy. If you want the right to say no, you also need to DEFEND your 'no.'

And the flip side is HE gets the right to ask what is important to him. A hubby checking in every six months or so to see if you've changed your mind about whatever isn't badgering (twice a week is issues)

And just like I went with trepidation to my first sushi restaurant, maybe you find you like that big scary thing.

And cajoling the other spouse? Happens all the time on a lot of issues. Problem is, the person cajoling generally has this idea 'he is just being stubborn/stupid about denying me what I want' which of course is rationalizing. But very common and very human.


----------



## JCD

FrenchFry said:


> * If you want the right to say no, you also need to DEFEND your 'no.'*
> 
> Nope, you don't.
> 
> You, as the person who heard the no, is the one who should decide if the no is acceptable.
> 
> Defense is not mandatory at all.


Let me clarify. You need to be willing to stick to your guns and not change you mind or show any weakness in your no.

But please make sure that you practice what you preach. If your hubby doesn't like something, if he says no, YOU as the listeners need to either respect that or....not. Even if his objections are silly.

I think there is a hell of a lot of hypocrisy on this issue.

Because you are holding to an excessive position.

Scenario:

Her: 'Honey, take out the trash now. Tomorrow is trash day.'

Him: 'I am watching the game' I.e. No

According to your metrics, if she says another word, she is not respecting his 'no'.

According to mine, there is room in a relationship for negotiation....and picking ones battles about doing things you do not like.

So yes, if you want your no to count, you better defend it.


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## EleGirl

Once again comparing apples and oranges. A household core to what a person shares of their body sexually. And here I thought that sex was about love in marriage.

But.. if the husband says no about the trash. He says no.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> Let me clarify. You need to be willing to stick to your guns and not change you mind or show any weakness in your no.
> 
> But please make sure that you practice what you preach. If your hubby doesn't like something, if he says no, YOU as the listeners need to either respect that or....not. Even if his objections are silly.
> 
> I think there is a hell of a lot of hypocrisy on this issue.
> 
> Because you are holding to an excessive position.
> 
> Scenario:
> 
> Her: 'Honey, take out the trash now. Tomorrow is trash day.'
> 
> Him: 'I am watching the game' I.e. No
> 
> According to your metrics, if she says another word, she is not respecting his 'no'.
> 
> According to mine, there is room in a relationship for negotiation....and picking ones battles about doing things you do not like.
> 
> So yes, if you want your no to count, you better defend it.


Ridiculous example. At least make a half decent case. 
Sex and bodily autonomy come under the category of sex and bodily autonomy. Not watching TV and refusing to take out the rubbish.


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## Maricha75

FrenchFry, maybe that's why there is a disconnect between myself and some of the other women in this thread, too. "I don't like it", as a stand alone, is not enough for either my husband nor myself. For us, we need a reason, and if there is a potential fix for it. For example, oral. My husband is the only one I have given oral, ever. And I am the only one who has ever given it to him. The problem? I gag. Every time. Sometimes, I have come close to throwing up. It is more than a tiny irritation for me. But, if he wants it, I do it... as long as I am physically up to it. If my stomach is churning due to food disagreeing with me, or whatever else is causing it, it doesn't happen. But if I am well, and up to it, I do it. I use lozenges to help the gag reflex, flavor to cover the bitterness, and finish off with soda or juice. I do what I need to do to make it bearable for myself because I know he enjoys it. AND it was never off the table to begin with. It was a possibility from the start. One thing that has always been off the table, for both of us, is anal. We were in agreement from the beginning and remain in agreement on it. Still, "I don't want to" doesn't work for us. There is a reason for everything we do and don't want to do... and we give the reason.


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## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> FrenchFry, maybe that's why there is a disconnect between myself and some of the other women in this thread, too. "I don't like it", as a stand alone, is not enough for either my husband nor myself. For us, we need a reason, and if there is a potential fix for it. For example, oral. My husband is the only one I have given oral, ever. And I am the only one who has ever given it to him. The problem? I gag. Every time. Sometimes, I have come close to throwing up. It is more than a tiny irritation for me. But, if he wants it, I do it... as long as I am physically up to it. If my stomach is churning due to food disagreeing with me, or whatever else is causing it, it doesn't happen. But if I am well, and up to it, I do it. I use lozenges to help the gag reflex, flavor to cover the bitterness, and finish off with soda or juice. I do what I need to do to make it bearable for myself because I know he enjoys it. AND it was never off the table to begin with. It was a possibility from the start. One thing that has always been off the table, for both of us, is anal. *We were in agreement from the beginning and remain in agreement on it. *Still, "I don't want to" doesn't work for us. There is a reason for everything we do and don't want to do... and we give the reason.


I think that is makes a lot of sense in a relationship where the two of you have this agreement. 

Others are like FF where they agree that no is no. They are good with that.

You are both right for your own relationship.

What I think you are missing is that for some people, neither of those approaches work. Some people have SO/spouses who do not take no for an answer. And they do not accept any reason if the topic is something that they want. If they want it then they will accept nothing but yes. So if they are given a reason they will just twist it and turn it on the other person to beat them down until they give into what is want. 

I talked about bondage earlier. I was seriously dating someone who wanted to do that. I said that it could not. They asked why. I told them that it was because of the attempted murder/rape. I could not handle bondage. So instead of accepting that he went on and on trying to convince me that I was being stupid and one and on. Basically he was not going to take no for an answer. He wanted what he wanted.

Thank goodness I was not married to him with children. It was much easier to make the choice to leave.

Bondage never happened. For me the relationship was over. It was over because no was enough. I gave him the respect of explaining why. Then he tired to use to that knowledge a very painful past experience to try to do break me down to do what he wanted. He used what he knew about me to try to get me to do something that scares the living daylights out of me.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Once again comparing apples and oranges. A household core to what a person shares of their body sexually. And here I thought that sex was about love in marriage.
> 
> But.. if the husband says no about the trash. He says no.





*LittleDeer* said:


> Ridiculous example. At least make a half decent case.
> Sex and bodily autonomy come under the category of sex and bodily autonomy. Not watching TV and refusing to take out the rubbish.


Huh. So, Little Deer...what exactly is he using to take out the trash? His spirit?

If you argue 'body and personal preference autonomy' then you are arguing for AUTONOMY.

Please note: I am not making this case. YOU are. I am all for couple negotiations (with room for hard line stances in those negotiations). Love means not abusing your other...but it also means sacrifice. I am guessing it means the OTHER spouses sacrifice perhaps. :scratchhead:

If I were uncharitable, one could easily read your quibbles as 'what I don't want to do is an ultimatum which should never be discussed again. What you don't want to do but *I* want you to do is certainly not.'

This is also a human thing.


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## Maricha75

Ele, do you really think that those same people who would twist it around, and beat them down, would honestly be the types to simply take "no, I don't want to" as an answer? Come on. They are the same type who would badger for an answer. And, again, not the type you would want to be with. I haven't missed anything. I understand that some will not take no for an abswer. Again, if this is a deal breaker for you, you should not be with that person. Another thing, you seem to be speaking about just dating, while I am talking about marriage. My point is that if you cannot trust the person to tell what happened (even as simple as just saying "traumatic event"), then you shouldn't be together. And if he reacts poorly about it, you shouldn't be together. No, I understand what you are saying. I just don't happen to agree with you.

This is another example (as you called JCD's example) of apples and oranges. You gave an example from a guy you were only dating. I gave examples from marriage. See, I understood what JCD was saying when he brought up the wife wanting her husband to take the trash out. The husband just didn't want to. It was actually a good analogy, but very much simplified. There was another example given early on where the husband didn't want to visit his wife's family, just because "I don't want to." And the point JCD was making is that some things, apparently, are acceptable to say "I don't want to", without giving a reason why. But others, apparently, it is unacceptable. I disagree with that line of thinking. "I don't want to" is not enough for me. I don't accept it, as a stand alone response, from my kids. I certainly don't accept it, as a stand alone response from someone I am intimate with. But, by the time I would be having sex with him, we are well past "just dating", and are in an actual relationship. Maybe that's why I cannot comprehend why telling my partner would be a problem... I wouldn't be having sex with someone I was only dating.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> What I think you are missing is that for some people, neither of those approaches work. Some people have SO/spouses who do not take no for an answer. And they do not accept any reason if the topic is something that they want. If they want it then they will accept nothing but yes. So if they are given a reason they will just twist it and turn it on the other person to beat them down until they give into what is want.



I agree. Some people are just a-holes like that. They think their desires trump your desires.

That is the exact point though. In 'relationship assaying' we have on your side 'I don't like X so we won't do X.' Other person is 'I like X, so we should do X.'

Frankly, at this point, it's even steven. Why do your desires trump anyone elses? "Because they are mine" Fine but a hardline stance on that is easy to lead to it is ALWAYS 'my way or the highway'.

What Maricha et al are saying is a reason to avoid X, Y, or Z adds weight to mere 'personal opinion' (not that I am against personal opinion. Big on personal opinion...but I realize when I am doing so, I can be a very selfish bastard indeed. Dictatorial even.)

Because it's 'we' not 'me'. Now, if a woman I was in a relationship told me 'i did anal and hated it' I would perfectly well accept that.

If she said 'I do not want to do that and I've never tried it', well, I'd think there might be room to discuss the matter (hypothetically...I am not into the anal scene, but I personally hate unthinking ultimatums) I didn't like sushi. I tried it. I LEARNED to like sushi after a few attempts at it. Was not an epiphany but if my wife hadn't had a Japanese friend, I'd still be in the dark about something I found I really liked.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> Huh. So, Little Deer...what exactly is he using to take out the trash? His spirit?
> 
> If you argue 'body and personal preference autonomy' then you are arguing for AUTONOMY.
> 
> Please note: I am not making this case. YOU are. I am all for couple negotiations (with room for hard line stances in those negotiations). Love means not abusing your other...but it also means sacrifice. I am guessing it means the OTHER spouses sacrifice perhaps. :scratchhead:
> 
> If I were uncharitable, one could easily read your quibbles as 'what I don't want to do is an ultimatum which should never be discussed again. What you don't want to do but *I* want you to do is certainly not.'
> 
> This is also a human thing.


I don't think you have a firm grasp of these concepts. 

I have no issue with being asked to do Anal. Or anything else. I don't even care if he asks me more then once. I do care if I am distressed about something and it may cause me psychological or physical harm. I want my partner to also care about that. I don't care to be cajoled or pressured to do sexual acts. The thought makes me sick, and would turn me off. Ugh - to me it's a very unmanly trait. JMO

I also take out the trash here, if I sat on my ass watching tv all the time and not doing my fair share I'd expect my partner to pretty annoyed about that. And that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy because I wouldn't be physically or emotionally harmed by doing chores. Neither would he. 

I don't have to ask my partner or beg him or cajole him or pressure him. And he doesn't haveto do that to me either. Because we are adults who cooperate and both act for the good of the relationship.

In our relationship, if one of us wants to do something in bed we talk about it. If he or I were uncomfortable with it we wouldn't do it. It's pretty simple. And seems to be the recipe for a great sex life. 

I don't know what's going on at your place. Do you have to be asked to do chores? Because usually adults understand that they both make the work- they both clean the mess. It's not compatible to sex. AT ALL! 

Seriously you need to stop with the ridiculous comparisons. 

It sounds to me that you want what you want, and anything else is an annoying job to you. Normal everyday life and spending time with your spouse shouldn't be an issue, nor should cooking, cleaning etc. if you are not compatible with your spouse instead of pressuring them to do things they don't want move on to someone else who loves anal, and doesn't care if you watch tv all day and doesn't care if you don't do any chores. 

I'm sure there is someone out there -Out of the millions of women in the US there has to be at least one or two women who can't get enough of that kind if thing. 

Having anal sex or not might be an issue in your life, but it's not in mine at all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Maricha75 said: **maybe that's why there is a disconnect between myself and some of the other women in this thread, too. "I don't like it", as a stand alone, is not enough for either my husband nor myself. For us, we need a reason*, and if there is a potential fix for it. For example, oral. *My husband is the only one I have given oral, ever. And I am the only one who has ever given it to him.* The problem? I gag. Every time. Sometimes, I have come close to throwing up. It is more than a tiny irritation for me. But, if he wants it, I do it... as long as I am physically up to it. If my stomach is churning due to food disagreeing with me, or whatever else is causing it, it doesn't happen. But if I am well, and up to it, I do it. I use lozenges to help the gag reflex, flavor to cover the bitterness, and finish off with soda or juice.* I do what I need to do to make it bearable for myself because I know he enjoys it. AND it was never off the table to begin with.* It was a possibility from the start. One thing that has always been off the table, for both of us, is anal. We were in agreement from the beginning and remain in agreement on it. Still, "I don't want to" doesn't work for us. There is a reason for everything we do and don't want to do... and we give the reason.


I just want to say Maricha75...I find this very commendable.. I really do.. you are a good wife... :smthumbup: If my H knew I felt that way he'd live without it, he wouldn't be able to stand that I struggled ... *though I can SO understand a husband CRAVING THIS VERY BADLY.. so in this respect.. that's tough [email protected]#$*.. it has to take away from his experience knowing this.. *but yet.. your willingness to do it.. is still very very loving*... These are significant issues when you are committed to someone.. I am ALL FOR going that extra mile -to FIND a middle ground.. make a way to satisfy...

Otherwise, it has the ability to leave us feeling rejected, ugly , unloved.. 

My H was always trying to go down on me yrs ago..I had a mental block there.. I don't get off that way ..it was sooooo sensitive.. all I kept thinking is "How can he stand that!"..







....I'd let him do it.. but he knew I didn't get anything from it... I preferred HAND foreplay WAY OVER THAT!.... he did stop after a time from going there ..but I guess he missed it terribly -so I learned 6 years ago (that putting himself down I was talking about)...

I feel REALLY bad about that now & could kick myself ...ironically looking back I am so happy he was this sort of lover...got over that stupid hang up .. but I still don't orgasm from oral...but I let him know I love love love that he wants to Be all over me like that anyway.... definitely a plus. Something I was too clueless to grasp in the past.. 

These days I am the harder to please partner ....so I probably relate to more MEN in this... There are a few things I'd like to get out of my H - but he struggles to bring.... ..but I have to say this.. because it relates to the subject at hand..

*One thing I am so VERY THANKFUL for is....he doesn't shut me down.. his willingness to listen to me.. and try to work it out -I can't tell you what THAT MEANS TO ME.. it's another form of loving..* I KNOW he wants to make me happy....but then I have MY ROLE in not pushing him *too far* -in making him feel like he's not enough. (oh I've done it on occasion!) 

I have to remind myself some things are just not in his nature & never will be.... I married a "making love" man....the slow hand, easy touch sensual lover..(not downplaying this... I'd never be satisfied WITHOUT THAT)....but I didn't marry a Role playing "hanging from the chandeliers" kinky "let's try a new toy" type..

So we've had some conflict here with my insatiable "wanting to experience it ALL" drive a few yrs back....though I give him credit.. he's pushed his own limits....with my encouragement -making it worth his while.. 

And I've had to lay some things down along the way .. reminding myself ... MY *NEEDS* are met (thank you Honey- I love you!)...but these other things are more "*WANT- driven*".. and are not worth hurting him over... 

One of his absolute NO's is - "You ain't sticking anything up my a**"...but that's OK.. I have no desire to do that !

He also would not be game to pull his pants down & do it anywhere with even the remote chance of "getting caught"... that's not his thing. 

It takes 2 willing to "give & take".. keeping an open mind -because we love & want our partners happiness.. yet on the other end.. being respectful to not push too far.. ..we've had our "dance" in this.. . so figured I would share my perspective here.


----------



## NobodySpecial

JCD said:


> That is the price of autonomy. If you want the right to say no, you also need to DEFEND your 'no.'


I never did. The idea of my doing something scary and painful for him was never something he wanted. That was what built the trust that allowed me to try having it not be painful and scary.


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## samyeagar

I think what I have been trying to get across, and JCD as well is not so much the a$$hole scenaris ele has presented but more something along these lines...

Again...let's tae anal because it's as good of an examle as any other, because this isn't an issue of specifics, but rather general atitudes. While getting to know eachother, the sex talk is hapening, and he expresses an interest in anal. She says no, not something I want to do. He asks if there is some particuar aversion, of just something she isn't interested in. She just says that it's just not something she wants to do, and they leav it at that. A few years later, they are married, the subject has never come up between them again, and some how it comes out that she had in fact done anal in her past..at this point, there is a disconnect...the past behavior and current behavior do not add up. Yes, absolutely people change over time, but there is always a reason for that change, and I do believe that our spouses, significant others have a right to know about what prompted those changes. In the case I was describing, I think it would be completely reasonable for the guy to ask her what's up...to ask for clarifcation on the ovious disconnect. 

How about a real word hypothetical...my wife loves giving me oral, loves swallowing, the whole nine yards. When we first started dating and talking about sex, she flat out said oral was something she did to keep parity sexually. Not something she overly enjoyed, but had no problems doing it for quid-pro-quo. It was also one of those things that was demanded of her, that she went along with to keep the peace Not a big deal for me as yes, I wanted oral, but coming out of a 20 year relationship where it was completely off the table, this was a step in the right direction, and I accepted her explanation. At that point, I probably would have even accepted the "I just don't want to" reason. As things are now, it's something she truly enjoys, initiates hersef, yeah, life is good.

Lets suppose however that things had gone a bit differently...let's suppose it stayed as something she was only willing to do as quid pro quo, or simply taken off the table. I would have been fine with that...until...

My wife, after her divorce went through a lot of things. Among those was a bit of single woman kiss and tell. One of the things that ended up getting back to me through sources other than her was the fact that just a few months before we started datin, she had gone back to her ex husband for sex. This is a couple of years after they had divorced, after she had banged her step son as revenge, after all kinds of horrible crap, she still went back for sex, and part of that was her giving him a blow job. NOT AT ALL consistant with what she had told me early on. As things were, because of where things were in our relationship, we were abe to work through that, but it was a bit bumpy. There was a huge mental block regarding oral on my part to the point where, for about six weeks, I went soft any time her mouth went anywhere near me. As I said, we worked though it.

But what if...what if she had effectively taken oral off the table for me, knowing I would not press her for it, because I respect her and her feelings on things. This likely would have been something I could not have gotten past.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I think what I have been trying to get across, and JCD as well is not so much the a$$hole scenaris ele has presented but more something along these lines...
> 
> Again...let's tae anal because it's as good of an examle as any other, because this isn't an issue of specifics, but rather general atitudes. While getting to know eachother, the sex talk is hapening, and he expresses an interest in anal. She says no, not something I want to do. He asks if there is some particuar aversion, of just something she isn't interested in. She just says that it's just not something she wants to do, and they leav it at that. A few years later, they are married, the subject has never come up between them again, and some how it comes out that she had in fact done anal in her past..at this point, there is a disconnect...the past behavior and current behavior do not add up. Yes, absolutely people change over time, but there is always a reason for that change, and I do believe that our spouses, significant others have a right to know about what prompted those changes. In the case I was describing, I think it would be completely reasonable for the guy to ask her what's up...to ask for clarifcation on the ovious disconnect.


One of the things I love about my husband is that he accepts what is. I have eaten ice cream in the past. I have decided that I don't like ice cream. He is good with that. Period.

If he was complainy that I used to eat ice cream with past boyfriends, then I guess I would thing him a bit of a silly baby. If he demanded defenses of my desires, he would be kicked to the curb.


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## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> One of the things I love about my husband is that he accepts what is. I have eaten ice cream in the past. I have decided that I don't like ice cream. He is good with that. Period.
> 
> If he was complainy that I used to eat ice cream with past boyfriends, then I guess I would thing him a bit of a silly baby.* If he demanded defenses of my desires, he would be kicked to the curb*.


Since going out for ice cream is such an intensely intimate act, and strong show of desire, what if, instead of being an ogre and demanding, as you seem to imply here, he asked in an open, non threatening way about where the disconnect was?


----------



## Maricha75

Likewise, NS, one of the things I love about my husband is that he is willing to discuss things that are important to me, and vice versa. 

Btw, if JCD's example of taking out the trash is not an acceptable comparison, then neither is eating ice cream. Still "apples and oranges".


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Since going out for ice cream is such an intensely intimate act, and strong show of desire, what if, instead of being an ogre and demanding, as you seem to imply here, he asked in an open, non threatening way about where the disconnect was?


There IS NO disconnect. I don't like ice cream. He did not want, need or ask for justification. I think we know we are not talking about ice cream.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> There IS NO disconnect. I don't like ice cream. He did not want, need or ask for justification. I think we know we are not talking about ice cream.


Sure there's a disconnect, or a change in behavior at least, between your husband and past boyfriends. If he doesn't ask about why there was a change in behavior, that's perfectly fine.

I also think it is perfectly fine to want to know why. Myself, I want to know as much as possible about what makes my wife tick. The more I know abut her thought processes, reactions, behaviors, the better husband I can be for her.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Sure there's a disconnect, or a change in behavior at least, between your husband and past boyfriends. If he doesn't ask about why there was a change in behavior, that's perfectly fine.


Wooooosh. The previous boyfriend is not him. Thus no behavior change. THANK GOD since that guy was a world class ****.



> I also think it is perfectly fine to want to know why. Myself, I want to know as much as possible about what makes my wife tick. The more I know abut her thought processes, reactions, behaviors, the better husband I can be for her.


His lack of demand is the very reason I trust him to tell him anything and everything.


----------



## samyeagar

It seems like some here can't accept that most of us men here would be perfectly fine with a simple I tried it and didn't like it answer. That's enough for us, and not at all unreasonable to ask. Where the issues come in are like what I laid out above...I understood that my wife was not big on giving oral, I even understood and accepted why she wasn't, and was fine with her doing things her own way, and never pressing the issue.

Then I found out that she not only sought out sex with an ex, she gave oral when there was absolutely no compelling reason to do so..that is a huge disconnect from what she had told me before. I think an explanation was very warranted.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> It seems like some here can't accept that most of us men here would be perfectly fine with a simple I tried it and didn't like it answer. That's enough for us, and not at all unreasonable to ask. Where the issues come in are like what I laid out above...I understood that my wife was not big on giving oral, I even understood and accepted why she wasn't, and was fine with her doing things her own way, and never pressing the issue.
> 
> Then I found out that she not only sought out sex with an ex, she gave oral when there was absolutely no compelling reason to do so..that is a huge disconnect from what she had told me before. I think an explanation was very warranted.



I would bet my left knee that she does not trust you.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Wooooosh. The previous boyfriend is not him. Thus no behavior change. THANK GOD since that guy was a world class ****.
> 
> 
> 
> His lack of demand is the very reason I trust him to tell him anything and everything.


Oh goody...lets take this to the absurd extreme...let's suppose at some point you found out that your husband had killed his 37 past girlfriends...but hey, he hadn't killed you, so no change in his behavior...better not ask him about any of that...


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I would bet my left knee that she does not trust you.


I would submit that it is quite the opposite. To me, the "I don't want to" answer with nothing further shows a huge lack of trust. The fact that my wife I and have had some of the discussions that we have had, the fact that she will be completely open with me is a huge sign of trust. And I have never abused that trust as evidenced by the fact that we CAN have those discussions, and she has never felt so distrusting of me so as to tell me "I just don't want to"


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I would submit that it is quite the opposite. To me, the "I don't want to" answer with nothing further shows a huge lack of trust. The fact that my wife I and have had some of the discussions that we have had, the fact that she will be completely open with me is a huge sign of trust. And *I have never abused that trust *as evidenced by the fact that we CAN have those discussions, and she has never felt so distrusting of me so as to tell me "I just don't want to"


That is awesome. That is likely why she trusts you. vs you did it with him, you need to do it with me.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> There is also a big difference between volunteering information and prying for it.
> 
> People volunteer information all of the time. *If they aren't, there is probably a reason why*.


Most likely, it's a matter of trust. And sometimes people just need a bit of an opening to share. And if, as so many here have said, the past is the past, then to be consistent, shouldn't past hurts, past experiences of distrust also be left in the past?


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Most likely, it's a matter of trust. And sometimes people just need a bit of an opening to share. And if, as so many here have said, the past is the past, then to be consistent, shouldn't past hurts, past experiences of distrust also be left in the past?


Cuz just get over it already!


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> Maybe this is where we differ. It's not a matter of trust, it how we express respect.
> 
> I express respect by not fighting my husband's no. I assume he has a reason and that if things should change, he would be the first one to come to me--and vice-versa.


And for me, my wife wanting to know the "why" would be a huge sign of intimacy. That she wanted to know me, more about me, then again, I trust her completely and would know her motivations for wanting to know, despite my past hurts, betrayals.

I've not always been an open book, but with her, I have, and yes, she's wanted to know why I'm different with her than past relations...and no...I didn't just leave it at "Because I feel like it"


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JCD said:


> Now, if a woman I was in a relationship told me 'i did anal and hated it' I would perfectly well accept that.
> 
> If she said 'I do not want to do that and I've never tried it', well, I'd think there might be room to discuss the matter (hypothetically...I am not into the anal scene, but I personally hate unthinking ultimatums)


First- good that you understand a woman can do something with a past partner and not do it with you. 

Second- if the discussion still results in a no, at what point would you be willing to accept the answer and move on? 

Hypothetically- a woman wants to get banged by some young, hot guy while her husband watches. 
"No, I've never tried that and don't want to do that"

Where's the line between discussion and trying to force someone?

I can get behind discussion in ways like:
"that's ok, how do you feel about a small butt plug or just using a finger?"
or
"Maybe we could try a bit of role playing instead of the real thing"

As ways to find a compromise you can both enjoy. 
But no one should be forced, manipulated or guilted into sexual acts.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> Thank goodness we aren't married then. :rofl:


Notice I didn't say demanding to know why, or badgering to know why? I said wanting to know why.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> Maybe this is where we differ. It's not a matter of trust, it how we express respect.
> 
> *I express respect by not fighting my husband's no*. I assume he has a reason and that if things should change, he would be the first one to come to me--and vice-versa.


Interesting choice of words...How does simply asking "why" translate into *fighting* his "no"? I've never felt simply asking "why" as a negative.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Interesting choice of words...How does simply asking "why" translate into *fighting* his "no"? I've never felt simply asking "why" as a negative.


Lots of us have experienced why as an exercise in fighting the no. That is what so reassuring of a different approach.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Lots of us have experienced why as an exercise in fighting the no. That is what so reassuring of a different approach.


As have I, but not with my wife, and as they say, the past is the past, and I don't hold my past against her.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> This isn't a past is the past issue, however.
> 
> This is a compatibility issue.


It's a past affecting the present issue which leads to compatibility. We are all what our pasts have made us, and what and who we are today directly sets our compatibility with another...and how much a person is willing to allow someone else's past affect their own present.

So ultimately, there is no such thing as the past is the past.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> It's a past affecting the present issue which leads to compatibility. We are all what our pasts have made us, and what and who we are today directly sets our compatibility with another.
> 
> So ultimately, there is no such thing as the past is the past.


For me it is totally a compatibility issue. There are people, men, in this world who feel THEY have the right to an opinion on women's sexuality. They have some right to decide what SHE "should" feel comfortable doing FOR THEM. I am incompatible with that attitude.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> For me it is totally a compatibility issue. There are people, men, in this world who feel THEY have the right to an opinion on women's sexuality. They have some right to decide what SHE "should" feel comfortable doing FOR THEM. I am incompatible with that attitude.


And there are women in this world who feel they have the right to use men to be princesses too. And just like the men you describe, the women who feel that way I suspect are in a small minority, but they do have a right to that opinion, just as we have the right not to get mixed up with them, but do we have the right to hold the sins of others against the ones we are intimate with?


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> And there are women in this world who feel they have the right to use men to be princesses too. And just like the men you describe, the women who feel that way I suspect are in a small minority, but they do have a right to that opinion, just as we have the right not to get mixed up with them, but *do we have the right to hold the sins of others against the ones we are intimate with*?


What does this even mean? Previous "sins" are not the issue. MY FEELINGS are. And my husband agrees, thankfully.


----------



## JCD

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't think you have a firm grasp of these concepts.
> 
> I have no issue with being asked to do Anal. Or anything else. I don't even care if he asks me more then once. I do care if I am distressed about something and it may cause me psychological or physical harm. I want my partner to also care about that. I don't care to be cajoled or pressured to do sexual acts. The thought makes me sick, and would turn me off. Ugh - to me it's a very unmanly trait. JMO
> 
> I also take out the trash here, if I sat on my ass watching tv all the time and not doing my fair share I'd expect my partner to pretty annoyed about that. And that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy because I wouldn't be physically or emotionally harmed by doing chores. Neither would he.
> 
> I don't have to ask my partner or beg him or cajole him or pressure him. And he doesn't haveto do that to me either. Because we are adults who cooperate and both act for the good of the relationship.
> 
> In our relationship, if one of us wants to do something in bed we talk about it. If he or I were uncomfortable with it we wouldn't do it. It's pretty simple. And seems to be the recipe for a great sex life.
> 
> I don't know what's going on at your place. Do you have to be asked to do chores? Because usually adults understand that they both make the work- they both clean the mess. It's not compatible to sex. AT ALL!
> 
> Seriously you need to stop with the ridiculous comparisons.
> 
> It sounds to me that you want what you want, and anything else is an annoying job to you. Normal everyday life and spending time with your spouse shouldn't be an issue, nor should cooking, cleaning etc. if you are not compatible with your spouse instead of pressuring them to do things they don't want move on to someone else who loves anal, and doesn't care if you watch tv all day and doesn't care if you don't do any chores.
> 
> I'm sure there is someone out there -Out of the millions of women in the US there has to be at least one or two women who can't get enough of that kind if thing.
> 
> Having anal sex or not might be an issue in your life, but it's not in mine at all.


Exactly the opposite. I try to do the things my wife asks me to do because I want her happy (I am not 100% successful in this but I doubt anyone else is either)

My point, made numerous times, is that in the course of coupledom, sometimes a spouse DOES ask you to do something you really don't want to do. Somethig uncomfortable. Maybe even something they hate. Because it is VERY important to your spouse, you want to make your acquiescence a GIFT to them. That is the nature of favors. That is the nature of sacrifice. That is the nature of selfless gestures.

His night at the opera. The slasher flick you don't want to see. A hated relative visited. Some boring business function where you give up something else YOU would rather do. Sex is just a different version of that.

Maybe in your relationship, neither of you makes those kind of gestures. I suppose that is another way to do it.


----------



## firebelly1

I'm really late to the discussion, but it seems that in my major relationships, the issue has "come up." My bf and I talked about it but I can't remember how the conversation started. I was truthful. Didn't seem to be an issue, but I think that the fact that it wasn't an issue for him and his attitude around my sexuality in general being okay is a major reason why we are together.


----------



## sisters359

"Sex is just a different version of that." 

Wow. Sorry, but that is spoken like a "true man," by which I mean to be totally sarcastic. 

Let's just stop and consider that. Suppose she wants to watch you receiving anal sex from another man, or maybe wants to watch you suck another guy's ****. That's "just another version" of tolerating an awful relative for a few days? 

I have not met many men in my life who think a woman's body is somehow just like theirs, and who think a woman's body experiences sex the same way theirs does. You do. 

You *want* to put something into her body--and she doesn't want it. It's her BODY. The squirm you felt at my suggestions, above, is the feeling she will have, the rest of her life, if she does something involving her body that she does not want to do. It does not matter that she might even want to give you a gift--that still does not make it something she actually WANTS her body to experience. Get the difference? If not, you have some major boundary issues.


----------



## JCD

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> First- good that you understand a woman can do something with a past partner and not do it with you.
> 
> Second- if the discussion still results in a no, at what point would you be willing to accept the answer and move on?
> 
> Hypothetically- a woman wants to get banged by some young, hot guy while her husband watches.
> "No, I've never tried that and don't want to do that"
> 
> Where's the line between discussion and trying to force someone?
> 
> I can get behind discussion in ways like:
> "that's ok, how do you feel about a small butt plug or just using a finger?"
> or
> "Maybe we could try a bit of role playing instead of the real thing"
> 
> As ways to find a compromise you can both enjoy.
> But no one should be forced, manipulated or guilted into sexual acts.


I have no problem with lines in the sand. People need to know who they are.

But not everything is a line in the sand. Some of it is the nebulous area from 'meh' to 'no I don't THINK so'.

I have no trouble with your examples on negotiating. If a finger was way too traumatic for a given lady, what kind of ogre do you imagine a man to be to continue to push harder.

BUT...why does her 'opinion' trump his 'opinion'? 

Her: "I find it disgusting."

Him: "Did you used to think blowjobs were disgusting? How about sex when you first heard about the mechanics?"

Her: "Yes, but that's different."

Him: "How?"

Too often, there is no good answer to that question except unfamiliarity. Here's the thing. There are tons of unfamiliar things we experience in life every day. I have been pushed out of my comfort zone and discovered new things I enjoy...but I never would have taken that first step without the push.

No one here is defending being an ass. INCLUDING me!

But I still believe that if there was a major change in who 'you' were, where once you were giving away free BJs to all and sundry and then...zip...well...I'd kind of like to know why too. Not necessarily as blackmail (again, conceded wrong) but obviously something traumatic happened.

If you don't owe an explanation to your spouse, who do you owe an explanation to?


----------



## JCD

sisters359 said:


> "Sex is just a different version of that."
> 
> Wow. Sorry, but that is spoken like a "true man," by which I mean to be totally sarcastic.
> 
> Let's just stop and consider that. Suppose she wants to watch you receiving anal sex from another man, or maybe wants to watch you suck another guy's ****. That's "just another version" of tolerating an awful relative for a few days?
> 
> I have not met many men in my life who think a woman's body is somehow just like theirs, and who think a woman's body experiences sex the same way theirs does. You do.
> 
> You *want* to put something into her body--and she doesn't want it. It's her BODY. The squirm you felt at my suggestions, above, is the feeling she will have, the rest of her life, if she does something involving her body that she does not want to do. It does not matter that she might even want to give you a gift--that still does not make it something she actually WANTS her body to experience. Get the difference? If not, you have some major boundary issues.



Not at all. Since neither of us had ever done it, I occasionally brought it up as a new thing to try. No pressure. Some people liked it. Some loved it. Some MEN didn't like it. But if you don't try, you don't know.

Still...on thinking hard about it, I dropped the issue and don't want to address it any more.

But to equate cheating or male on male homosexual sodomy to a bit of married couple sexual experimentation is (chorus) apples to oranges.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JCD said:


> I have no problem with lines in the sand. People need to know who they are.
> 
> But not everything is a line in the sand. Some of it is the nebulous area from 'meh' to 'no I don't THINK so'.
> 
> I have no trouble with your examples on negotiating. If a finger was way too traumatic for a given lady, what kind of ogre do you imagine a man to be to continue to push harder.
> 
> BUT...why does her 'opinion' trump his 'opinion'?
> 
> Her: "I find it disgusting."
> 
> Him: "Did you used to think blowjobs were disgusting? How about sex when you first heard about the mechanics?"
> 
> Her: "Yes, but that's different."
> 
> Him: "How?"
> 
> Too often, there is no good answer to that question except unfamiliarity. Here's the thing. There are tons of unfamiliar things we experience in life every day. I have been pushed out of my comfort zone and discovered new things I enjoy...but I never would have taken that first step without the push.
> 
> No one here is defending being an ass. INCLUDING me!
> 
> But I still believe that if there was a major change in who 'you' were, where once you were giving away free BJs to all and sundry and then...zip...well...I'd kind of like to know why too. Not necessarily as blackmail (again, conceded wrong) but obviously something traumatic happened.
> 
> If you don't owe an explanation to your spouse, who do you owe an explanation to?


There are different types of people. 
Some want a push to try new things, some just want to try everything new that they can, some are happy and comfortable with where they are.

I have no interest in sky diving, trying a lot of exotic foods, traveling too far, some sexual acts. No amount of pushing is going to make me want to, it will just make me resentful. 

If I say things like; maybe, under different circumstances, I'll think about it- I am open for discussion.
"No" is no. I don't say it much but when I do I mean it.

You can't apply 1 method to everyone. If you need a partner to push you out of your comfort zone then it's a good quality to look for. But others don't. They want someone who accepts them where they are and doesn't push.


----------



## JCD

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There are different types of people.
> Some want a push to try new things, some just want to try everything new that they can, some are happy and comfortable with where they are.
> 
> I have no interest in sky diving, trying a lot of exotic foods, traveling too far, some sexual acts. No amount of pushing is going to make me want to, it will just make me resentful.
> 
> If I say things like; maybe, under different circumstances, I'll think about it- I am open for discussion.
> "No" is no. I don't say it much but when I do I mean it.
> 
> You can't apply 1 method to everyone. If you need a partner to push you out of your comfort zone then it's a good quality to look for. But others don't. They want someone who accepts them where they are and doesn't push.


This is a perfectly defensible point. I have my own conservative elements.

It takes all kinds.


----------



## JCD

Lila said:


> I think that what you describe above is _*a*_ version of coupledom. It is successful for those that believe a partner's sacrifice equates to love.
> 
> What many others on this thread are trying to explain is that there is another successful version of coupledom. One where love equates to mutual enjoyment/pleasure.
> 
> Your version of sacrificial love would not work in my relationship because balance is not constant. If this were a teeter totter, then one person would always be high while the other was low and vice versa. You're either experiencing pleasure because your spouse is sacrificing theirs or your spouse is experiencing pleasure because you're sacrificing yours.
> 
> I need a constant balance. I would never be able to find enjoyment at the risk of of my husband's pleasure. It's just not in me and he's the same. Its' not always easy but we do compromise....a lot.


I certainly am not suggesting one side constantly sacrifice their happiness or even that it should be done often.

My wife does not ask me to do things I will hate often and I certainly try to avoid the same.

BUT...sometimes it happens. Conflicts of desires develop. One person has to win and one person has to lose. One could flip a coin. Or the couple could say 'this critically important business meeting and your Superbowl tickets aren't worth either of us getting upset over. Let's go to the park instead" (Essentially screwing both of them...but they are equal)

So I don't see how it's so terrible to say 'Today I am going to make YOU happy. Some time in the future, I expect you to make ME happy.'

I understand that this isn't what you are saying but the implication in tone is a bit judgmental.


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> Ele, do you really think that those same people who would twist it around, and beat them down, would honestly be the types to simply take "no, I don't want to" as an answer? Come on. They are the same type who would badger for an answer. And, again, not the type you would want to be with. I haven't missed anything. I understand that some will not take no for an abswer. Again, if this is a deal breaker for you, you should not be with that person. Another thing, you seem to be speaking about just dating, while I am talking about marriage. My point is that if you cannot trust the person to tell what happened (even as simple as just saying "traumatic event"), then you shouldn't be together. And if he reacts poorly about it, you shouldn't be together. No, I understand what you are saying. I just don't happen to agree with you.
> 
> This is another example (as you called JCD's example) of apples and oranges. You gave an example from a guy you were only dating. I gave examples from marriage. See, I understood what JCD was saying when he brought up the wife wanting her husband to take the trash out. The husband just didn't want to. It was actually a good analogy, but very much simplified. There was another example given early on where the husband didn't want to visit his wife's family, just because "I don't want to." And the point JCD was making is that some things, apparently, are acceptable to say "I don't want to", without giving a reason why. But others, apparently, it is unacceptable. I disagree with that line of thinking. "I don't want to" is not enough for me. I don't accept it, as a stand alone response, from my kids. I certainly don't accept it, as a stand alone response from someone I am intimate with. But, by the time I would be having sex with him, we are well past "just dating", and are in an actual relationship. Maybe that's why I cannot comprehend why telling my partner would be a problem... I wouldn't be having sex with someone I was only dating.


This thread is not about just marriage. It's about dating as well. In many ways it's more about dating than marriage. Why? Because if some guy is going to ask those 3 questions, it's most likely to be before marriage.

Some here have moved the thread from it's initial purpose into a person's right to say no to a sexual act in marriage.

You and your husband have found a way to deal with issues that you both are comfortable with. So has FF and her husband. that's great for both of you.

My example of bondage works in or out of marriage. Sometimes women end up married and then after marriage their husband changes.. and now he's pulling stuff like what I described with that guy over bondage. And now that she is in a marriage.. what does she do.. break up her children's family? The best solution is that her husband learn that no means no. And if he wants an explanation, he needs to respect that explanation and not use it as info to badger her with.


It sounds like that for you and your husband "NO" really is enough because neither of you would pressure the other for to get the other to do something. But you two both want a bit more explanation and respectfully give that to each other.

But for some people that is not required.


----------



## Maricha75

Even when dating, Ele, I would still ask why. If he were to stay with just "I don't want to", it would not be enough. If he said "traumatic experience" or a vague expkanation, with promise to explain better, should a relationship develop, I would accept that. 

As far as "no" being enough with my husband... it is enough because an expkanation was given. Had there been no explanation, I know there would have been more questions, more doubt, etc. So, no. You are wrong. "No", on its own, is not enough. Would he force me to do a sex act? No. But he certainly wouldn't stick with "no" without getting to WHY I said "no". Nor would I expect him to. Nor would he expect me to.

In dating... I still feel the same way. If I am having sex with him, then I see nothing wrong with giving explanations. Tbh, I would think that if someone deliberately withheld information like that, it wouldn't be because he doesn't trust me. I would think he is ashamed of his past. But, that's JMO.


----------



## firebelly1

EleGirl said:


> .
> 
> Some here have moved the thread from it's initial purpose into a person's right to say no to a sexual act in marriage.


I've noticed that most threads on TAM about a woman's number of partners before marriage evolve into discussions about a woman's right to say "no" to sex acts, particularly anal sex. Is that because we figure if a woman has said yes before she must, to be fair, continue to say "yes"? Women can only be virgins or wh*res, but not something in between.


----------



## staarz21

firebelly1 said:


> I've noticed that most threads on TAM about a woman's number of partners before marriage evolve into discussions about a woman's right to say "no" to sex acts, particularly anal sex.* Is that because we figure if a woman has said yes before she must, to be fair, continue to say "yes"? *Women can only be virgins or wh*res, but not something in between.


That is exactly what some believe. It's absurd too (to me). Just because someone did something in the past (even repeatedly) DOES NOT mean they enjoyed it or wanted to continue doing it in the future.

It boggles my mind how some people could even imagine that as a reality. If someone, man or woman, says no to something...the answer is no. Period. End of story. They don't want to do it. Why would you want them to if they have clearly stated they don't want to? 



I'm so confused on how that could be reality for some people.


----------



## NobodySpecial

staarz21 said:


> That is exactly what some believe. It's absurd too (to me). Just because someone did something in the past (even repeatedly) DOES NOT mean they enjoyed it or wanted to continue doing it in the future.
> 
> It boggles my mind how some people could even imagine that as a reality. If someone, man or woman, says no to something...the answer is no. Period. End of story. They don't want to do it. Why would you want them to if they have clearly stated they don't want to?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so confused on how that could be reality for some people.


I think it might be hard for someone who has never been used as a sex toy to get. For those of us pressured into acts when we were too young and stupid to say hell no, it is a lot easier.


----------



## Big Dude

NobodySpecial said:


> I think it might be hard for someone who has never been used as a sex toy to get. For those of us pressured into acts when we were too young and stupid to say hell no, it is a lot easier.


:iagree: This is well expressed! 

And someone who has never been burned by a partner who dishonestly pretended sexual attraction in order to get married might have a hard time understanding the other position.

We see these kinds of issues through the lens of our own experiences, which can vary a great deal between the sexes.

Sorry to intrude into the ladies lounge!


----------



## lifeistooshort

My husband wouldn't be able to keep it up for something he knew I hated, and I would feel lower then dirt if he was doing something sexual I knew he hated. Sexual intimacy is a form of vulnerability not applicable to things like taking out the trash or cleaning toilets.....we don't have to love and trust each other to do those things. We do them because otherwise the house would be nasty.

The heart of sexual fulfillment for most people is intimacy, and you can't possible have that if you're able to get off on something you know your partner hates. My ex had no problem with things I hated, but we also had no real intimacy. I was just a convenient hole for him to get his. If that's the kind of marriage you want by all means pressure your spouse for anything you think you're entitled to but I don't think most people want that.


----------



## techmom

I would have a problem with a person who always asked why to every "no" answer I gave, it would seem as if he was badgering me to get what he wanted. In the beginning of my relationship with my husband he asked a lot of whys. About every aspect of my past, some things I didn't know why I did or didn't do a particular thing. But he insisted I did. Now mind you, I was a virgin and this was my first serious relationship. I answered the best I could, every time we were intimate was like 20 questions,

"Do you like this?"

Me: no

Him: why not?

Me: it just doesn't feel good

Him: my other partners liked it, why don't you

And on and on...

These types of things don't build intimacy, they destroy it. So, I know what to look out for in my next partner...


----------



## lifeistooshort

techmom said:


> I would have a problem with a person who always asked why to every "no" answer I gave, it would seem as if he was badgering me to get what he wanted. In the beginning of my relationship with my husband he asked a lot of whys. About every aspect of my past, some things I didn't know why I did or didn't do a particular thing. But he insisted I did. Now mind you, I was a virgin and this was my first serious relationship. I answered the best I could, every time we were intimate was like 20 questions,
> 
> "Do you like this?"
> 
> Me: no
> 
> Him: why not?
> 
> Me: it just doesn't feel good
> 
> Him: my other partners liked it, why don't you
> 
> And on and on...
> 
> These types of things don't build intimacy, they destroy it. So, I know what to look out for in my next partner...




Number one way to kill the mood and any desire your woman has for you: tell her about what your other partners liked/disliked.


----------



## Anonymous07

Maricha75 said:


> As far as "no" being enough with my husband... it is enough because an expkanation was given. Had there been no explanation, I know there would have been more questions, more doubt, etc. So, no. You are wrong. "No", on its own, is not enough. Would he force me to do a sex act? No. But he certainly wouldn't stick with "no" without getting to WHY I said "no". Nor would I expect him to. Nor would he expect me to.


This is very different from my marriage. A simple no is enough. 

Do you want to do "x"?

No

Ok. 

Then move on to something else. 

If either of us feel like explaining why we're saying no, we share that, but it typically is not questioned. If my husband repeatedly asked why to everything I said no to, I would feel weird.


----------



## Maricha75

Anonymous07 said:


> This is very different from my marriage. A simple no is enough.
> 
> Do you want to do "x"?
> 
> No
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Then move on to something else.
> 
> If either of us feel like explaining why we're saying no, we share that, but it typically is not questioned. If my husband repeatedly asked why to everything I said no to, I would feel weird.


Here's the thing. There is no "repeatedly asking". We have no need. We know what each other currently enjoys. If something new is suggested, it only makes sense to say why it's not something that interests us. Occasionally, things that do interest us do elicit explanation. For example, "Do you want to try going on top this time?" "No, my knee is killing me." (I have a bad knee and hip from a car accident 15 years ago). It's automatic, with us... an explanation. The concept of not supplying an explanation to my husband is very foreign to me. Tbh, even the example given earlier of some being "used as sex toys" still doesn't change my thoughts regarding sharing with someone I am intimate with. If someone is close enough to be intimate, it makes no sense to hide the past, both good and bad.


----------



## larry.gray

lifeistooshort said:


> Number one way to kill the mood and any desire your woman has for you: tell her about what your other partners liked/disliked.




OMG. I couldn't imagine going anywhere near there. 

No... just no.

Regardless of gender. You don't compare your current to your past partners at all. To do draw an unfavorable comparison is even worse. 

I would presume that's a pretty good way to end a relationship right there.


----------



## lifeistooshort

larry.gray said:


> OMG. I couldn't imagine going anywhere near there.
> 
> No... just no.
> 
> Regardless of gender. You don't compare your current to your past partners at all. To do draw an unfavorable comparison is even worse.
> 
> I would presume that's a pretty good way to end a relationship right there.


It's not as uncommon as you'd think, and people you'd never expect it from will do it. My husband used to have a terrible habit of talking about exes; fortunately he never directly compared me to any but he'd make wildly inappropriate comments of a personal nature at wildly inappropriate times, and in my view it was damaging to our relationship. And he's an HR guy who teaches classes on emotional intelligence and things like that, and is overly concerned with being PC. Unlike me, who does tend to run her mouth and is not always completely PC.....but I would NEVER make ex comments and he would. Who would expect stuff like that from him but not me?

We won't get into what finally put a stop to it but suffice to say it involved me providing him lots of details about my exes he didn't want, including the huge c0ck on my first.


----------



## techmom

lifeistooshort said:


> It's not as uncommon as you'd think, and people you'd never expect it from will do it. My husband used to have a terrible habit of talking about exes; fortunately he never directly compared me to any but he'd make wildly inappropriate comments of a personal nature at wildly inappropriate times, and in my view it was damaging to our relationship. And he's an HR guy who teaches classes on emotional intelligence and things like that, and is overly concerned with being PC. Unlike me, who does tend to run her mouth and is not always completely PC.....but I would NEVER make ex comments and he would. Who would expect stuff like that from him but not me?
> 
> We won't get into what finally put a stop to it but suffice to say it involved me providing him lots of details about my exes he didn't want, including the huge c0ck on my first.


Too bad I can't employ this technique because he is my first


----------



## lifeistooshort

techmom said:


> Too bad I can't employ this technique because he is my first


Well you could try something else I did.....I told him that people who talk about exes like that are insecure and pathetic, nobody cares, and since he clearly wanted kudos for all the wh0res he banged the next time he brought it up I was getting him a cookie.


----------



## JCD

Lila said:


> I think you misunderstand the nature of couple's who don't believe in sacrificial love. Nobody gets screwed. The person with the critical business meeting goes to his/her meeting, the person with the superbowl tickets goes to the game. Both are happy in the knowledge that the other is doing something enjoyable meanwhile neither is sacrificing their own pleasure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't see anything wrong with covert contracts???


Jim and Della were such idiots. At least by your metrics.


----------



## JCD

Here is the major disconnect, at least according to how I see it and how I have so far been poorly describing it.

We have had threads in the Ladies Lounge and other forums where a woman will start a thread about how she feels like a second class citizen by her husband. How work, friends, relatives, former lovers, etc all seem to be treated or were treated better by a husband.

And without fail, no one asks this woman 'why doesn't he trust you?' She is given a measure of sympathy and understanding. How can a HUSBAND treat a WIFE as anything less than the most important relationship in his life?

Imprecations are generally hurled the husbands way by the XX crowd.

And yet if/when a husband wonders the same thing: Am I being treated better or worse than prior relationships...it's just assumed off the bat that the wife IS treating her husband like the Second Coming and that he is 'not earning her trust'/asking unreasonable thing/generally insecure without obligating the wife to creating any of these insecurities.

This is changing the conversation a bit but I expected at least a drop of sympathy to the uncertainties her past might raise. Nope. He's an ass for asking, for knowing or for wondering.


----------



## JCD

Lila said:


> I do not want to take this thread into the realm of debating O.Henry's fictional Christmas story, or any other fictional body of work for the record. You can start a thread in Books or Social to do that.


I wouldn't want to either if I were you. A story of selfless love which has resonated with audiences for 130+ years vs this 'partnership deal' is not a coversation I'd like to defend either.


----------



## I Don't Know

firebelly1 said:


> I've noticed that most threads on TAM about a woman's number of partners before marriage evolve into discussions about a woman's right to say "no" to sex acts, particularly anal sex. Is that because we figure if a woman has said yes before she must, to be fair, continue to say "yes"? Women can only be virgins or wh*res, but not something in between.


No. If a woman tried swallowing and hated it, gagged, felt sick, or whatever, that's fine. If she swallowed every partner before and now refuses, I think an explanation might be helpful.

Like it or not some men view sex as acceptance. If you think about it, it makes sense. A woman accepts a man into her. If the sex is unprotected, she accepts his semen into her as well. So the question in our minds is, why did you accept "him" or "them" more fully than you accept me?

Let's get away from sex. My wife did EVERY THING for her ex H. She ran his bath after work, laid his clothes out, had his dinner ready whatever time he decided to stop fvcking other women and come home. EVERY DAY. I expect none of that. I am perfectly capable of doing those things for myself and I love cooking for our family with her every day. BUT. One night I took my kids to my mom's house to spend the night. It was close to 8pm before I got home. Dinner? In the fridge. Cold. Dried out. So the one time I'm late getting home, for a legit reason BTW, I get not one shred of the consideration the cheating POS before me got on a daily basis. But I know... I'm not supposed to compare.


----------



## turnera

No, but you should find out WHY.


----------



## I Don't Know

Not according to is thread. She didn't do it. That can be taken as an implied "no". End of story.


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> No. If a woman tried swallowing and hated it, gagged, felt sick, or whatever, that's fine. If she swallowed every partner before and now refuses, I think an explanation might be helpful.
> 
> Like it or not some men view sex as acceptance. If you think about it, it makes sense. A woman accepts a man into her. If the sex is unprotected, she accepts his semen into her as well. So the question in our minds is, why did you accept "him" or "them" more fully than you accept me?
> 
> Let's get away from sex. *My wife did EVERY THING for her ex H. She ran his bath after work, laid his clothes out, had his dinner ready whatever time he decided to stop fvcking other women and come home. EVERY DAY. I expect none of that. I am perfectly capable of doing those things for myself and I love cooking for our family with her every day. BUT. One night I took my kids to my mom's house to spend the night. It was close to 8pm before I got home. Dinner? In the fridge. Cold. Dried out. So the one time I'm late getting home, for a legit reason BTW, I get not one shred of the consideration the cheating POS before me got on a daily basis. But I know... I'm not supposed to compare*.


Holy crap, this could have totally been written by me. I first noticed it during our first holidays together. Pretty traditional gender roles...guys sat on the couch watching football all day while the women cooked. Maybe my first mistake was helping with the cooking...preparing the turkey, glazing the ham, peeling potatoes, all that...All the women, including my step daughter fixed plates for their men...except my wife. Her sister called her out on it, but added that at least I wouldn't get all pissy about it like her ex husband would have. I asked her about it later, and she said it hadn't even crossed her mind to do it for me. Talk about such a weird combination of feelings all at once...


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I absolutely hate it when no one fixes me a plate of food, despite having two arms and legs. And you know the ability to serve up my own food. Absolutely maddening.


----------



## I Don't Know

Me too LittleDeer, it's not maddening for me but I'm pretty good at getting my own food. It's not so much the fixing of the plate, it's being showing the other person that you care about them.


----------



## GusPolinski

30+ years ago, my mother left my father for a few months w/ my younger brother and I in tow.

When we finally moved back home, she found a receipt for an expensive piece of jewelry that he'd apparently bought for the woman that he'd been seeing while they were separated. He'd never bought anything like that for _her_, and she was very upset.

So, ladies... did she have the right to be upset?


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> Me too LittleDeer, it's not maddening for me but I'm pretty good at getting my own food. It's not so much the fixing of the plate, *it's being showing the other person that you care about them*.


I have a feeling the broader point is going to be missed by some people.

In my case, it wasn't that I was incapable, and it wasn't a huge deal, but more an observation, however it was glaringly obvious to the point that others noticed and pointed it out that I was quite literally the odd man out because of my wife's in action. Sort of like if we were going to a formal with several other couples, and the all the other husbands all got corsages for their wives, and I didn't...but hey, my wife had a debit card and knows how to drive right?


----------



## soccermom2three

GusPolinski said:


> 30+ years ago, my mother left my father for a few months w/ my younger brother and I in tow.
> 
> When we finally moved back home, she found a receipt for an expensive piece of jewelry that he'd apparently bought for the woman that he'd been seeing while they were separated. He'd never bought anything like that for _her_, and she was very upset.
> 
> So, ladies... did she have the right to be upset?


Do you know the real reason your mom left your dad? And not what you remember through a child's eyes?

ETA: I guess what I'm saying is it depends on the reason your mom left.


----------



## Fozzy

My wife would also rather chew off her own hand then use it to hand me a plate of food. Again, like Sam--not a big deal in and of itself. I bring my wife plates of food because I want to do something considerate for her. If she did the same for me, it would be appreciated as an act of consideration, not as completing part of her assigned gender role.


----------



## GusPolinski

soccermom2three said:


> Do you know the real reason your mom left your dad? And not what you remember through a child's eyes?
> 
> ETA: I guess what I'm saying is it depends on the reason your mom left.


Yes. But please answer the question as if their split had been relatively free of any vitriol (it wasn't) and they'd planned to divorce amicably (highly unlikely).


----------



## JCD

soccermom2three said:


> Do you know the real reason your mom left your dad? And not what you remember through a child's eyes?
> 
> ETA: I guess what I'm saying is it depends on the reason your mom left.


Are you saying that if the mom cheated on dad, he was justified in buying someone else jewelry?

But that is sort of struggling to avoid the point.

Say Hubby used to check the air and oil of his former wife's car religiously. Every day. Washed the windows. Cleaned up the floor. Made extra trips to fill it up with gas if she was low so she was spared a trip.

And yet with you, he essentially had Little Deer's attitude of 'pfft...why do I need to do anything nice for _you_? You got arms and legs. Get cracking while I enjoy my coffee."

Would you or would you not at least be curious if not resentful as you are sitting there, scraping a half an inch of ice off the windshield while you are 5 minutes late for work in -5 degree weather (something she never faced. Pre-heating the car. I actually do that for my wife when I can)

Would you be curious. Would you be resentful.


----------



## JCD

Lila said:


> Hahahaha, I didn't really give you a reason for not wanting to argue the fictional story on the ladies lounge but you HAD to have a reason.
> 
> You just proved that there are some people who can't accept 'No, I don't want to' without having a Why they find acceptable. And if you don't get a 'Why', you'll make up something to make yourself feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the wonderful laugh JCD. I genuinely appreciate it. it's a great way to start a Monday morning.


Some people need reasons. And if you have the autonomy of saying 'no', I get to say 'reasons'.

But no, the weakness of the position wasn't a 'reason', it was inherent in the position.

Glad I could help brighten your day.


----------



## NobodySpecial

For me the issues is not whether one should or should not give reasons. Lord knows what our communication is like 20 plus years in is a lot different than when we were dating.

The fact is some things are genderyish and some are not. The whole my husband/wife would cut off her arm before she would make me a plate of food, I'm like, so you married a *******. What does that have to do with this conversation?

Many women have had MANY instances of guys using every trick in the book to "get" something off of us. Including this wheedling, well you did it with him nonsense. It makes sense to be twice shy having been repeatedly bitten. All of this being does in the Ladies Lounge.

Along come some of the more defensive guys with a lot of unrelated stuff. Well women play bait and switch with sexuality once they get married. Yah, pretty sure this is less likely by far to happen to a woman. So what? What does that have to do with this thread? Does it suck? Hell yes. Would it be worth a thread? Dunno, why not start one and find out.


----------



## TiggyBlue

I Don't Know said:


> Me too LittleDeer, it's not maddening for me but I'm pretty good at getting my own food. It's not so much the fixing of the plate, it's being showing the other person that you care about them.


Did you fix her plate of food?


----------



## I Don't Know

That would be pointless as she and the kids had already eaten. But I have.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Sorry I don't know I meant to quote samyeagar.


----------



## samyeagar

TiggyBlue said:


> lol sorry I don't know I meant to quote samyeagar.


Ahh..gotcha...did I fix her plate of food at the family gathering? No, I didn't, though I did bring her a piece of cheesecake for desert.

That said, she is usually pretty tired when she gets home from work, and sometimes takes a nap when she gets home. I do most of the cooking, and the times she takes a nap, I usually wake her up with dinner in bed.


----------



## Maricha75

*LittleDeer* said:


> I absolutely hate it when no one fixes me a plate of food, despite having two arms and legs. And you know the ability to serve up my own food. Absolutely maddening.


You know what? I have no problem getting my husband's plate for him at family get togethers. I have no problem getting it for him if he's getting home late and the rest of us have already eaten. I realize that he is fully capable of doing it himself. Sometimes, like when we get together for holidays, it is more convenient to get it for him. My mom did it for my dad, I get my husband's, my sisters sometimes get for their husbands. Now, we get dad's, my god mother's, and our husbands' plates. It's more convenient that way.


----------



## samyeagar

Maricha75 said:


> You know what? I have no problem getting my husband's plate for him at family get togethers. I have no problem getting it for him if he's getting home late and the rest of us have already eaten. I realize that he is fully capable of doing it himself. Sometimes, like when we get together for holidays, it is more convenient to get it for him. My mom did it for my dad, I get my husband's, my sisters sometimes get for their husbands. Now, we get dad's, my god mother's, and our husbands' plates. It's more convenient that way.


But how dare I wonder WHY I was not included in what was very obviously tradition, a tradition my wife participated in with her ex husband, as was pointed out by someone else...


----------



## samyeagar

intheory said:


> I've kept up with this thread since its inception.
> 
> The stated topic was: "Men asking you about your sexual past . "
> 
> And, (as often happens on TAM -- which is okay); we have wandered away from the original topic. What we have ended up talking about is _any_ reciprocal act that couples can do for each other, whether or not they feel like doing it or not: taking out the trash, going out to eat ice cream, preparing plates of food, attending boring business functions vs. going to the Superbowl.
> 
> That's fine to discuss. I've enjoyed reading the back and forth.
> 
> But I, personally, think sex is an area that is incomparable to anything else. It's unique.
> 
> *Someone upthread said that they replied to their husband, when asked to do a certain act, "it doesn't feel good"*.
> 
> Ding! Ding! Ding! When it comes to sex; that's all you need to know.


And most of the men participating on this thread, and I suspect most in general...that is more than good enough reason. The issue has become that according to some women, we have no right to even ask WHY...


----------



## NobodySpecial

Moral of the story, as I have often said, quid pro quos are just dumb.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> And most of the men participating on this thread, and I suspect most in general...that is more than good enough reason. The issue has become that according to some women, we have no right to even ask WHY...


Did anyone really say you cannot ask? You just have no decision as to whether or not the "reason" is good enough FOR YOU. It's her body.


----------



## I Don't Know

That is as good a reason as any.

The other plates of food, taking out the trash, and what not are really trying to bring this more into a general concept rather than getting hung up on specifics. But we can't get away from specifics.

Anal - well that hurts, can be dangerous, etc.
Taking out the trash - not comparable
Plate of food - I can make my own food.


----------



## I Don't Know

NobodySpecial said:


> Did anyone really say you cannot ask? You just have no decision as to whether or not the "reason" is good enough FOR YOU. It's her body.


Actually it's been said a few times that "no" is enough of an answer and no further explanation needs to be given.


----------



## GusPolinski

intheory said:


> I've kept up with this thread since its inception.
> 
> The stated topic was: "Men asking you about your sexual past . "
> 
> And, (as often happens on TAM -- which is okay); we have wandered away from the original topic. What we have ended up talking about is _any_ reciprocal act that couples can do for each other, whether or not they feel like doing it or not: taking out the trash, going out to eat ice cream, preparing plates of food, attending boring business functions vs. going to the Superbowl.
> 
> That's fine to discuss. I've enjoyed reading the back and forth.
> 
> But I, personally, think sex is an area that is incomparable to anything else. It's unique.
> 
> Someone upthread said that they replied to their husband, when asked to do a certain act, "it doesn't feel good".
> 
> Ding! Ding! Ding! When it comes to sex; that's all you need to know.


On the surface it seems like this thread is all over the place. And OK... that's a fair assessment.

But, at a very high level, each of the conversations that have evolved from the initial post essentially involves a lover, spouse, or SO wanting to know that he or she is being extended the same love, care, commitment, courtesy, consideration, and respect that has previously been afforded to previous lovers, SOs, and/or spouses.

And yeah... some guys just suck at making this the *apparent* goal of said "questioning".


----------



## Fozzy

I Don't Know said:


> That is as good a reason as any.
> 
> The other plates of food, taking out the trash, and what not are really trying to bring this more into a general concept rather than getting hung up on specifics. But we can't get away from specifics.
> 
> Anal - well that hurts, can be dangerous, etc.
> Taking out the trash - not comparable
> Plate of food - I can make my own food.


Making a plate of food can be dangerous. Depends on who's cooking.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I Don't Know said:


> Actually it's been said a few times that "no" is enough of an answer and no further explanation needs to be given.


I agree with that. Does that somehow mean that you cannot ask? You only control your behavior. She controls hers. Sounds like you are trying to control hers.


----------



## Maricha75

I Don't Know said:


> That is as good a reason as any.
> 
> The other plates of food, taking out the trash, and what not are really trying to bring this more into a general concept rather than getting hung up on specifics. But we can't get away from specifics.
> 
> Anal - well that hurts, can be dangerous, etc.
> Taking out the trash - not comparable
> Plate of food - I can make my own food.


Errrr... well, the plate of food could be comparable, if you think about it. You can get your own could translate to ...


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> On the surface it seems like this thread is all over the place. And OK... that's a fair assessment.
> 
> But, at a very high level, each of the conversations that have evolved from the initial post essentially involves a lover, spouse, or SO wanting to know that he or she is being extended the same love, care, commitment, courtesy, consideration, and respect that has previously been afforded to previous lovers, SOs, and/or spouses.


God help my poor husband if I only gave him the same of those things as I gave past lovers. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about sex acts and somehow having done it previously makes it a requirement that she "give" it to her husband. Hey a guy like that can try. I'll bet there are a lot of those guys in the NO sex in marriage sub forum.


----------



## Fozzy

Maricha75 said:


> Errrr... well, the plate of food could be comparable, if you think about it. You can get your own could translate to ...


Save me a drumstick!


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree with that. Does that somehow mean that you cannot ask? You only control your behavior. She controls hers. Sounds like you are trying to control hers.


French Fry for one made it pretty clear that if she said no, any request for a reason why would be seen as a very bad thing...


----------



## Fozzy

NobodySpecial said:


> God help my poor husband if I only gave him the same of those things as I gave past lovers. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about sex acts and somehow having done it previously makes it a requirement that she "give" it to her husband. Hey a guy like that can try. I'll bet there are a lot of those guys in the NO sex in marriage sub forum.


Wife: Why won't you ever go down on me?

Husband: I don't like it.

Wife: You have a trophy on the mantle. It says "Cunning Linguist #1--Topeka 1999"

Husband: Yeah, but I liked the way those ladies tasted. I just don't care for the way you do. Don't take it personal! How about I go get you a plate of food?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> Wife: Why won't you ever go down on me?
> 
> Husband: I don't like it.
> 
> Wife: You have a trophy on the mantle. It says "Cunning Linguist #1--Topeka 1999"
> 
> Husband: Yeah, but I liked the way those ladies tasted. I just don't care for the way you do. Don't take it personal! How about I go get you a plate of food?


Because that is what we are talking about. Have you read the thread? Like at all? 

I mean if people are just ass hats, then they are ass hats. We keep skipping that and go straight to how do I get my ass hat of a wife to give me anal. Or how do I get my wife to give me anal despite my being an ass hat.


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> God help my poor husband if I only gave him the same of those things as I gave past lovers. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about sex acts and somehow having done it previously makes it a requirement that she "give" it to her husband. Hey a guy like that can try. I'll bet there are a lot of those guys in the NO sex in marriage sub forum.


LOL. That's the other half of the conversation. Give me a little while to catch up.


----------



## GusPolinski

Fozzy said:


> Wife: Why won't you ever go down on me?
> 
> Husband: I don't like it.
> 
> Wife: You have a trophy on the mantle. It says "Cunning Linguist #1--Topeka 1999"
> 
> Husband: Yeah, but I liked the way those ladies tasted. I just don't care for the way you do. Don't take it personal! How about I go get you a plate of food?


:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:


----------



## Fozzy

So for the spouse who finds out their SO put certain things into retirement the moment they married them, (whew!) they should assume it's because they're an asshat, and that if they weren't such an asshat the crazy sex would be flowing like wine?


----------



## Maricha75

Fozzy said:


> So for the spouse who finds out their SO put certain things into retirement the moment they married them, (whew!) they should assume it's because they're an asshat, and that if they weren't such an asshat the crazy sex would be flowing like wine?


No. And don't ask me why. I don't want to tell you!


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> Because that is what we are talking about. Have you read the thread? Like at all?
> 
> I mean if people are just ass hats, then they are ass hats. We keep skipping that and go straight to how do I get my ass hat of a wife to give me anal. Or how do I get my wife to give me anal despite my being an ass hat.


Thank GOD my meeting just ended. I am laughing so hard right now.


----------



## Maricha75

Fozzy said:


> Save me a drumstick!


Ahhh... a leg man. Got it. My husband prefers the breast.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I am actually trying to wrap my head around laying there thinking ohhhh baby while he is thinking Ew yuck. I couldn't do it. Wouldn't WANT to do it. Just forget getting my rocks off knowing he was hurt or scared.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> So for the spouse who finds out their SO put certain things into retirement the moment they married them, (whew!) they should assume it's because they're an asshat, and that if they weren't such an asshat the crazy sex would be flowing like wine?


If you want to have a meaningful dialog, you have to actually read what was written.


----------



## Fozzy

NobodySpecial said:


> If you want to have a meaningful dialog, you have to actually read what was written.


I'm not sure I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who implies that men (presumably ONLY the men) in SIM are getting what they deserve.



NobodySpecial said:


> God help my poor husband if I only gave him the same of those things as I gave past lovers. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about sex acts and somehow having done it previously makes it a requirement that she "give" it to her husband. Hey a guy like that can try. I'll bet there are a lot of those guys in the NO sex in marriage sub forum.


----------



## tacoma

Fozzy said:


> Wife: Why won't you ever go down on me?
> 
> Husband: I don't like it.
> 
> Wife: You have a trophy on the mantle. It says "Cunning Linguist #1--Topeka 1999"
> 
> Husband: Yeah, but I liked the way those ladies tasted. I just don't care for the way you do. Don't take it personal! How about I go get you a plate of food?


Damn that's beautiful!

:rofl:


----------



## Maricha75

intheory said:


> "it doesn't feel good" _is_ the "WHY?"
> 
> (I hope that explains it. I sometimes feel a bit inadequate trying to express my thoughts/feelings here; like what I type isn't fully conveying what I mean.)


Omg... Sam is saying that SOME think that even asking for THAT reason is a "no no". Just saying "No, I don't want to." should be plenty sufficient, in their minds, no need to say "it doesn't feel good". It is unnecessary TO THEM. Sam is saying that "it doesn't feel good" IS the "WHY" that, apparently, should not even be asked. I hope THAT clears it up...


----------



## tacoma

Fozzy said:


> Making a plate of food can be dangerous. Depends on who's cooking.


Not to mention taking out the trash.

You should see how that pack of racoons looks at me when I'm carrying a bag of it after dark.

Nasty bastards.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> I'm not sure I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who implies that men (presumably ONLY the men) in SIM are getting what they deserve.


You are talking to someone who formerly would not do a lot of things, was very vanilla, after getting less than perfectly treated by boyfriends. I can tell you that where we are now, with absolutely nothing off the table, and all of them cheerfully enjoyed by both of us, was not achieved by whining that I did it with my past boyfriends. Instead it was achieved by patient understanding which was reciprocated in kind. 

I don't lump genders. I am eternally grateful for the husband I have.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^ Oh he definitely gets what he deserves.


----------



## Fozzy

NobodySpecial said:


> You are talking to someone who formerly would not do a lot of things, was very vanilla, after getting less than perfectly treated by boyfriends. I can tell you that where we are now, with absolutely nothing off the table, and all of them cheerfully enjoyed by both of us, was not achieved by whining that I did it with my past boyfriends. Instead it was achieved by patient understanding which was reciprocated in kind.
> 
> I don't lump genders. I am eternally grateful for the husband I have.


I'm happy for you and your husband--really.

Perhaps I misinterpreted you comment about men in SIM. If I did, I'm sorry.

Peace.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> I'm happy for you and your husband--really.
> 
> Perhaps I misinterpreted you comment about men in SIM. If I did, I'm sorry.
> 
> Peace.


I think you did. No offense taken. My point was that people, all people, have a tendency to look more outward in marriage. How can s/he do this better for me. It is often more effective to determine sensible things that we each can do ourselves. I would venture that there are people in the sex in marriage sub forum who are not putting their best foot forward when they adopt certain attitudes. This is one of them.

What s/he did previously is nothing, meaningless. There are usually only 2 people in the marriage today.


----------



## lifeistooshort

samyeagar said:


> But how dare I wonder WHY I was not included in what was very obviously tradition, a tradition my wife participated in with her ex husband, as was pointed out by someone else...


Says the guy who tried every sex toy known to man with his ex wife but refused to do it with his current wife. Did you provide a reasonable reason for this?

You're well within your rights to do this, by the way, but let's be fair. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

lifeistooshort said:


> Says the guy who tried every sex toy known to man with his ex wife but refused to do it with his current wife. *Did you provide a reasonable reason for this?*
> 
> You're well within your rights to do this, by the way, but let's be fair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so glad someone brought this back up...notice how when the shoe was on the other foot, it was completely ignored?

ETA: It did not go over well at all. We did have a nice long talk over a few days about the why's, and reached a really good compromise for both of us...though she did lose a lot of interest in them because of the mind movies it caused her...


----------



## Maricha75

samyeagar said:


> I am so glad someone brought this back up...notice how when the shoe was on the other foot, it was completely ignored?
> 
> ETA: It did not go over well at all. We did have a nice long talk over a few days about the why's, and reached a really good compromise for both of us...though she did lose a lot of interest in them because of the mind movies it caused her...


But the key point is... she asked why, and you explained. And you talked about it.


----------



## Fozzy

FrenchFry said:


> Nope.
> 
> See if I reply again.


Please elaborate.


----------



## RoseAglow

Woah!! This thread has really taken off since last Friday.

Sam, since you mentioned it, here is the post I started on last Friday before the weekend and work interfered with my TAM time:



samyeagar said:


> Now for my example...
> 
> Early on, when my wife and I were getting to know each other, the subject of sex toys came up. She had a small vibrator and that was it, and all she'd ever had. She expressed some interest in maybe exploring that a bit. I flat out told her that I really wasn't into toys. That was fine for her. A bit disappointing maybe, but certainly not a deal breaker as they were not really something she was into herself, just wanting to experiment a bit. Nothing more was said about them.
> 
> Over the next year and a half, we used her vib together one time, and it was somewhat uncomfortable as she knew I didn't really want to, but was doing it purely for her. She never pressed the issue until...
> 
> She decided to become a Pure Romance consultant, and as we were going through the catalogs, talking about things, her expressing her curiosity and renewed desire, I decided it was time to come clean before too much slipped out. My ex wife and I had used just about everything in that catalog, and used it frequently. Add to that, *some already open insecurities *of my wife regarding my ex...the drop dead gorgeous, fit, blonde bombshell. Yeah, all of a sudden, my explanation from early in our relationship just didn't cut it any more.


Pure Romance! One of my SIL's good friends is making a boatload of cash as a PR consultant. She gave up her Realtor career and has won an SUV, many trips, is just doing really well, and has been for about three years now. I hope your wife has similar success!

I put an item in bold because this sort of loops us way back to the beginning (and other threads have done so too) to show that asking a ton of these questions is most often done due to sexual insecurity. It happens.

It is kind of you to discuss it with your wife. My husband's ex-wife was also a fit, petite, blonde bombshell. I am nowhere near as hot. I am not even as hot as his two ex-girlfriends who I personally knew very well. I'm not as hot as my husband, either, for that matter. 

I had to decide pretty early on whether or not this mis-match of physical attractiveness was going to be an issue. My husband I spoke at length numerous times in our first year together about our concerns, our insecurities. He had own issues that were also on the table.

We hashed it out. My husband spoke of us, here and now. I spoke of us, here and now. It turns out that I could put it rest. I felt secure that he was strongly attracted to me. He might lose the attraction later on if I get horribly out of shape, disfigured, etc. but it will be a current issue. I am solid that he is not comparing me against his ex's and I am solid that he doesn't feel at all like he settled. (We addressed his issues as well and he able to continue on, confident in our relationship.)

As such, I don't care if my husband licked her toes and hung from the ceilings. What he did with her and any other ex is in the past. There is no value in bringing the past into our relationship.

So, if I decided to join my SIL's friend in Pure Romance and my DH had told me that he didn't do sex toys, and I later found out that he'd done them all with his ex, then, well, it is what it is.

I might say, "Not your thing any more? How disappointing. Let me know if you want to talk about it or if there anything I can do if you want to try again in the future." 

But that's it. What does it matter what he did previously? Seriously? If he doesn't want to do it now, that is all I need to know. There is zero point or benefit to trying to push or link it in any way to me. I am already confident that he is happy with me sexually, we have been happy for years now and this new info would just be a check mark. Finding out that years ago he used a ton of sex toys with his wife and just didn't like them now, and he hadn't like them since we got together however many years ago? It is just noise. It's rough that part of my current job will be selling toys but you know, most of them I can try out on myself anyway.

What other option is there? I am not willing to torment myself endless on "What ifs?" and "Am I enoughs"? If it was switched, I could not respect a man who I had to comfort all the time and reassure, then re-assure again, then reassure AGAIN that he was enough. If he is that insecure in what going on between us, then he and I are both in the wrong relationship IMO.

I am not trying to dog you or your wife. It actually sounds like you two are pretty much on the same level in this as she has mind movies and you've had some RJ- you guys will probably be able to help heal each other. (I am not trying to say that my DH and I don't have our own insecurities still- of course we do, we are human. They just aren't in this area.)

We are all different and Thank God for it!! 


Just out of curiosity from the conversation way back on Friday, did you feel like you had lied to her previously about your prior experience with sex toys since you hadn't told her beforehand that you'd used a ton of them with your ex? Do you feel that you'd been deceitful? I wouldn't think so BTW. I am curious since that issues was in the debate going on.

Also, did your lack on interest in sex toys have anything to do with your current wife? Or was it just stuff/associations/experience from your past? Was your wife onto something when she pressed you?

************************************************

As for the whole dinner thing- that is frustrating. Your wife and IDK's wife treated you both poorly.

In a similar situation, I would respect my husband if he pulled me aside and called me out on it: "You know, I feel dissed right now. I am perfectly capable of making my own dinner, but if I am working late and you are making dinner for everyone else, I'd really appreciate it if you fixed me a plate too."

If my husband came to me all ticked off saying "I can't believe you. You'd fix a plate for your POS cheating ex-husband but you won't make one for me!?!?!" I would not take him seriously. I'd have an eyebrow up wondering what other ways he had his Check Up list on things that he thought my POS ex had it so much better than he did. I would think he was being very childish and throwing a bit of a temper tantrum.

What does it matter what the "POS" got? What happened or didn't happen back then isn't the problem. No one can go back in time and un-do all the nice things they now regret that they did for their exes. If I'd never fixed a plate for the POS back then, it doesn't change the fact that it is inconsiderate not to do it NOW.
*
IMO it is completely counter-productive to drag past relationships into it. It just brings in noise and new things to fight about. The problem is HERE and NOW so let's work on what we want to do moving forward.*

(The only exception IMO is infidelity. It was established way back on the first few pages of the thread that we are not talking about infidelity here.)

Keep the dead buried, peeps. Zombies are not your friend,


----------



## EleGirl

RoseAglow said:


> Woah!! This thread has really taken off since last Friday.
> 
> Sam, since you mentioned it, here is the post I started on last Friday before the weekend and work interfered with my TAM time:
> 
> 
> 
> Pure Romance! One of my SIL's good friends is making a boatload of cash as a PR consultant. She gave up her Realtor career and has won an SUV, many trips, is just doing really well, and has been for about three years now. I hope your wife has similar success!
> 
> I put an item in bold because this sort of loops us way back to the beginning (and other threads have done so too) to show that asking a ton of these questions is most often done due to sexual insecurity. It happens.
> 
> It is kind of you to discuss it with your wife. My husband's ex-wife was also a fit, petite, blonde bombshell. I am nowhere near as hot. I am not even as hot as his two ex-girlfriends who I personally knew very well. I'm not as hot as my husband, either, for that matter.
> 
> I had to decide pretty early on whether or not this mis-match of physical attractiveness was going to be an issue. My husband I spoke at length numerous times in our first year together about our concerns, our insecurities. He had own issues that were also on the table.
> 
> We hashed it out. My husband spoke of us, here and now. I spoke of us, here and now. It turns out that I could put it rest. I felt secure that he was strongly attracted to me. He might lose the attraction later on if I get horribly out of shape, disfigured, etc. but it will be a current issue. I am solid that he is not comparing me against his ex's and I am solid that he doesn't feel at all like he settled. (We addressed his issues as well and he able to continue on, confident in our relationship.)
> 
> As such, I don't care if my husband licked her toes and hung from the ceilings. What he did with her and any other ex is in the past. There is no value in bringing the past into our relationship.
> 
> So, if I decided to join my SIL's friend in Pure Romance and my DH had told me that he didn't do sex toys, and I later found out that he'd done them all with his ex, then, well, it is what it is.
> 
> I might say, "Not your thing any more? How disappointing. Let me know if you want to talk about it or if there anything I can do if you want to try again in the future."
> 
> But that's it. What does it matter what he did previously? Seriously? If he doesn't want to do it now, that is all I need to know. There is zero point or benefit to trying to push or link it in any way to me. I am already confident that he is happy with me sexually, we have been happy for years now and this new info would just be a check mark. Finding out that years ago he used a ton of sex toys with his wife and just didn't like them now, and he hadn't like them since we got together however many years ago? It is just noise. It's rough that part of my current job will be selling toys but you know, most of them I can try out on myself anyway.
> 
> What other option is there? I am not willing to torment myself endless on "What ifs?" and "Am I enoughs"? If it was switched, I could not respect a man who I had to comfort all the time and reassure, then re-assure again, then reassure AGAIN that he was enough. If he is that insecure in what going on between us, then he and I are both in the wrong relationship IMO.
> 
> I am not trying to dog you or your wife. It actually sounds like you two are pretty much on the same level in this as she has mind movies and you've had some RJ- you guys will probably be able to help heal each other. (I am not trying to say that my DH and I don't have our own insecurities still- of course we do, we are human. They just aren't in this area.)
> 
> We are all different and Thank God for it!!
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity from the conversation way back on Friday, did you feel like you had lied to her previously about your prior experience with sex toys since you hadn't told her beforehand that you'd used a ton of them with your ex? Do you feel that you'd been deceitful? I wouldn't think so BTW. I am curious since that issues was in the debate going on.
> 
> Also, did your lack on interest in sex toys have anything to do with your current wife? Or was it just stuff/associations/experience from your past? Was your wife onto something when she pressed you?
> 
> ************************************************
> 
> As for the whole dinner thing- that is frustrating. Your wife and IDK's wife treated you both poorly.
> 
> In a similar situation, I would respect my husband if he pulled me aside and called me out on it: "You know, I feel dissed right now. I am perfectly capable of making my own dinner, but if I am working late and you are making dinner for everyone else, I'd really appreciate it if you fixed me a plate too."
> 
> If my husband came to me all ticked off saying "I can't believe you. You'd fix a plate for your POS cheating ex-husband but you won't make one for me!?!?!" I would not take him seriously. I'd have an eyebrow up wondering what other ways he had his Check Up list on things that he thought my POS ex had it so much better than he did. I would think he was being very childish and throwing a bit of a temper tantrum.
> 
> What does it matter what the "POS" got? What happened or didn't happen back then isn't the problem. No one can go back in time and un-do all the nice things they now regret that they did for their exes. If I'd never fixed a plate for the POS back then, it doesn't change the fact that it is inconsiderate not to do it NOW.
> *
> IMO it is completely counter-productive to drag past relationships into it. It just brings in noise and new things to fight about. The problem is HERE and NOW so let's work on what we want to do moving forward.*
> 
> (The only exception IMO is infidelity. It was established way back on the first few pages of the thread that we are not talking about infidelity here.)
> 
> Keep the dead buried, peeps. Zombies are not your friend,


:iagree::smthumbup:


----------



## Thundarr

There's a big difference between sexual past versus non-sexual past. Women feel judged by sexual past and that's part of the dynamic. We (guys) can't use the argument of "she did it for him" so she has to do it with me when she feels like she's being judged for "doing it with him". If I spin that around it would feel pretty crappy.

Now a couple of things that Sammy and others have mentioned that's not sexual related resonate though. I would not like to feel that I wasn't important to my wife.


----------



## I Don't Know

RoseAglow and thundarr, that makes a a ton of sense actually. It does add a layer of noise. But how does one get rid of the feeling that they are being taken for granted. How does it not matter that it's something that was willingly given before but not now? I know this sounds crazy to most of you but not caring does not make sense to me Anyore than caring does to you.


----------



## JCD

NobodySpecial said:


> Did anyone really say you cannot ask? You just have no decision as to whether or not the "reason" is good enough FOR YOU. It's her body.


We have at least three or four posters here who have castigated any such hypothetical men as insecure, prying busybodies who are beneath contempt and certainly shoud be culled from the dating pool.

Excuse me, it's more like 'He is not the right person for ME (and I pity any woman who does select this loser)' sort of subtext.


----------



## JCD

Thundarr said:


> There's a big difference between sexual past versus non-sexual past. Women feel judged by sexual past and that's part of the dynamic. We (guys) can't use the argument of "she did it for him" so she has to do it with me when she feels like she's being judged for "doing it with him". If I spin that around it would feel pretty crappy.
> 
> Now a couple of things that Sammy and others have mentioned that's not sexual related resonate though. I would not like to feel that I wasn't important to my wife.


And when you consider that for some men, if not many men, sex=love...the question is a lot less moot than the women would like.

I think there is a lot of 'talk on the cheap' here too. Women saying 'of course I wouldn't be insecure about X, Y, or Z'

Easy to say hypothetically. Less so when it is a real thing in the relationship.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> And when you consider that for some men, if not many men, sex=love...the question is a lot less moot than the women would like.
> 
> I think there is a lot of 'talk on the cheap' here too. Women saying 'of course I wouldn't be insecure about X, Y, or Z'
> 
> Easy to say hypothetically. Less so when it is a real thing in the relationship.


I agree with that. At least in my case I absolutely can be insecure about things. If a partner rubs things in my face or continues to do something knowing it makes me feel insecure then we have an issue. 

One example would be one ex, would hardly ever compliment me. He did however before we were together, compliment everyone else and me an awful lot. Then nothing. That made me feel unattractive and insecure. I noted once I broke up with him he went back to complimenting others so easily. To me that was a boundary issues, I needed a man who was open and loving and could show his desire for me. 

And yes I think men should be allowed to have a certain level of insecurity. We all just have to watch is it founded or not. 

That said there is a difference with being asked and being whined at and cajoled or bullied. I have no issue with being asked or even being asked twice, but yeah being bullied is not on. 

If I meet someone and he says I absolutely cannot live with out X once a week. I need to decide is that something I can do, can I do X once a week? I may say yes or no, and we both have a choice to peruse things further or walk away. Me I chose to walk away when X wasn't being met.


----------



## NobodySpecial

JCD said:


> And when you consider that for some men, if not many men, sex=love...the question is a lot less moot than the women would like.
> 
> .


Does anal = love?


----------



## NobodySpecial

I Don't Know said:


> RoseAglow and thundarr, that makes a a ton of sense actually. It does add a layer of noise. But how does one get rid of the feeling that they are being taken for granted. How does it not matter that it's something that was willingly given before but not now? I know this sounds crazy to most of you but not caring does not make sense to me Anyore than caring does to you.


I make a distinction between willing and enthusiastic. My past was full of things I did willingly. Stupidly. But willingly. Why would anyone want to replicate a mess like that?


----------



## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> Are you saying that if the mom cheated on dad, he was justified in buying someone else jewelry?
> 
> But that is sort of struggling to avoid the point.
> 
> Say Hubby used to check the air and oil of his former wife's car religiously. Every day. Washed the windows. Cleaned up the floor. Made extra trips to fill it up with gas if she was low so she was spared a trip.
> 
> And yet with you, he essentially had Little Deer's attitude of 'pfft...why do I need to do anything nice for _you_? You got arms and legs. Get cracking while I enjoy my coffee."
> 
> Would you or would you not at least be curious if not resentful as you are sitting there, scraping a half an inch of ice off the windshield while you are 5 minutes late for work in -5 degree weather (something she never faced. Pre-heating the car. I actually do that for my wife when I can)
> 
> Would you be curious. Would you be resentful.


My partner and I have both gotten each other plates of food for various reasons. I actually would find the whole situation horrifically sexist, because the women in our family don't cook while the men watch football. Usually on special occasions every one pitches in and gets their own food. Unless someone is sick or taking care of the children etc. 


I also don't do car stuff. It's not my thing. However cooking isn't my partners thing so usually I cook and he takes care of the cars or whatever. We divide things up. However I don't see getting a plate of food as a chore. I think it's a normal every day occurrence that both people are capable of and is necessary in order that they get food in their belly.  

My partner also makes me tea often. And I make him his favourite dessert. I just wouldn't want my children learning that the men sit on their butts while the women serve them. That's not something I signed up for.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I Don't Know said:


> Let's get away from sex. My wife did EVERY THING for her ex H. She ran his bath after work, laid his clothes out, had his dinner ready whatever time he decided to stop fvcking other women and come home. EVERY DAY. I expect none of that. I am perfectly capable of doing those things for myself and I love cooking for our family with her every day. BUT. One night I took my kids to my mom's house to spend the night. It was close to 8pm before I got home. Dinner? In the fridge. Cold. Dried out. So the one time I'm late getting home, for a legit reason BTW, I get not one shred of the consideration the cheating POS before me got on a daily basis. But I know... I'm not supposed to compare.


I doubt those things meant love and consideration to her. It was the position she was put in and likely resented the hell out of it and was probably a big reason he's an ex. 

If I end up back in the single world, I will be looking for someone I do not have to do the things for that I do for H. Because those are the things I'm trying to get away from. It won't mean I'd like him less or he should have less consideration. He'd have more because I would be protecting us and him from slowly ending up where I am now. 

Sadly I, and maybe your wife, might be small favour-ed out after years of dealing with crap. So a warm meal when you are late may be a small thing, it may remind her of a very dark time and bring up feelings she doesn't want to have with/for you.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> I wouldn't ask why because it only effects me in so much that he doesn't do it now.
> 
> I still don't know what knowing the "why" accomplishes besides ammunition in arguments if the answer doesn't change.


This struck me...for me, they "why" would help me understand my partner better. I'm not talking about wanting to know graphic play by play details or anything, just generally what led to the change.

The last bit you said though is troubling to me. It is very defensive. Do you truly feel that you partner would do that to you? I trust my partner completely that she wouldn't be collecting things as ammunition against me, or I wouldn't be with her.

A related real world example here, again, back to when we were first sleeping together...the subject of "tying up" came up, as it's something I don't mind...not a must have for me by any stretch, but something that can be fun. She very vigorously said no way. It struck me as a very definite response, especially from someone who was so open to doing things. I asked her why...

She seemed a bit embarrassed as she explained...it was something she had liked to do before, but then in a book she was reading, the guy had tied the woman up, then proceeded to have a heart attack, and died on top of her while she was still tied up, and ever since then, doing it in real like spooks her. So...something she enjoyed in the past was off the table for me because of a fictional book. Guess what? I was, and am perfectly OK with that.

Turns out that me knowing the situation helped ease a possible awkward one later down the line. You know...those awkward moments teen agers tend to grace us with...My step daughter asked her mom if she still had the fuzzy handcuffs and silk rope her and her dad used to have...


----------



## Dad&Hubby

I Don't Know said:


> RoseAglow and thundarr, that makes a a ton of sense actually. It does add a layer of noise. But how does one get rid of the feeling that they are being taken for granted. How does it not matter that it's something that was willingly given before but not now? I know this sounds crazy to most of you but not caring does not make sense to me Anyore than caring does to you.


Let me state that the "why" mentioned earlier is CRITICAL, as long as it's done in a non-judgemental way. My wife and I have talked about our pasts in EVERY detail, I can even tell you which guy had the biggest sausage, etc. Now we were able to talk like that because 
1. we have since day 1 been FRIENDS, who can share anything with...we don't judge each other...THAT'S KEY. If my wife felt I was judging her for her past...there's no way she'd WANT to open up to me. 
2. We both decided we wouldn't hide ANYTHING in our marriage, we trust each other enough and our marriage to not allow pink elephants to sit around in corners and resentments to build. That said

My wife was VERY adventurous with some partners...it may have only been one time, but she tried almost everything. We don't do 1/2 of what she has done in her past. I don't judge her for it because it's different on many levels. For instance.
1. She did anal a lot with previous partners. She doesn't with me because my shape isn't comfortable AND she's had 2 kids since and hemorrhoids....so I have ZERO interest in doing it. We TRIED it...didn't work for us. We BOTH share the same philosophy, we do what we know pleases the other.
2. She used to swallow, but she doesn't as often because I'm a shooter and she LOVES to see how far she can make me go....I'm not going to take umbrage that she doesn't swallow because we BOTH are getting great pleasure out of that act.
3. She's done bondage once...wasn't her thing
etc. etc.

Now if my wife wasn't remotely interested in sex with me...I might have a different attitude...the first being...what can I do to increase her desire...if that failed, then we'd need to see counselors etc and possibly divorce...But that's different than her being into sex with me (which she is) but not certain acts. My number 1 goal in sex is to give my wife pleasure and her goal is to give me pleasure....THAT is our focus. If I never go near her bum...so be it...Why would I want to do something that she doesn't enjoy.

And to the question of...she freely gave it to someone else...This is a VERY complex question. Maybe the other guy was a jerk and made her feel "unsafe" and "unstable" enough where she did things she didn't actually enjoy to try and keep him...it happens...just like there are men who do things to keep their partners that they, if the relationship were healthy, don't want to do. Why would you want to make your partner do something they TRULY don't like. 

Also I think this issue, from the male perspective, is a bit of a smoke screen. If a guy is getting ENTHUSIASTIC sex, as in his wife wants him and initiates etc, but is on the plainer side...like oral and PIV with different positions...and his wife keeps him "empty" we'll say . The issue of what she did with other guys isn't much of an issue. The REAL issue is that many times the guy is starved of sex (and in reality love/affection and assurance that his wife ACTUALLY WANTS him physically if we define it for what sex really is) THEN these types of issues become big and what we're seeing.

If every man came home and his wife was on him like white on rice and riding him like she stole him...EVERY NIGHT....would the issue that she did anal 4 times with her ex REALLY matter much?


----------



## Fozzy

samyeagar said:


> This struck me...for me, they "why" would help me understand my partner better. I'm not talking about wanting to know graphic play by play details or anything, just generally what led to the change.
> 
> The last bit you said though is troubling to me. It is very defensive. Do you truly feel that you partner would do that to you? I trust my partner completely that she wouldn't be collecting things as ammunition against me, or I wouldn't be with her.
> 
> A related real world example here, again, back to when we were first sleeping together...the subject of "tying up" came up, as it's something I don't mind...not a must have for me by any stretch, but something that can be fun. She very vigorously said no way. It struck me as a very definite response, especially from someone who was so open to doing things. I asked her why...
> 
> She seemed a bit embarrassed as she explained...it was something she had liked to do before, but then in a book she was reading, the guy had tied the woman up, then proceeded to have a heart attack, and died on top of her while she was still tied up, and ever since then, doing it in real like spooks her. So...something she enjoyed in the past was off the table for me because of a fictional book. Guess what? I was, and am perfectly OK with that.
> 
> Turns out that me knowing the situation helped ease a possible awkward one later down the line. You know...those awkward moments teen agers tend to grace us with...My step daughter asked her mom if she still had the fuzzy handcuffs and silk rope her and her dad used to have...


Gerald's Game. Terrible book. I'm probably going to re-read it now.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

*LittleDeer* said:


> I agree with that. At least in my case I absolutely can be insecure about things. If a partner rubs things in my face or continues to do something knowing it makes me feel insecure then we have an issue.
> 
> One example would be one ex, would hardly ever compliment me. He did however before we were together, compliment everyone else and me an awful lot. Then nothing. That made me feel unattractive and insecure. I noted once I broke up with him he went back to complimenting others so easily. To me that was a boundary issues, I needed a man who was open and loving and could show his desire for me.
> 
> And yes I think men should be allowed to have a certain level of insecurity. We all just have to watch is it founded or not.
> 
> That said there is a difference with being asked and being whined at and cajoled or bullied. I have no issue with being asked or even being asked twice, but yeah being bullied is not on.
> 
> If I meet someone and he says I absolutely cannot live with out X once a week. I need to decide is that something I can do, can I do X once a week? I may say yes or no, and we both have a choice to peruse things further or walk away. Me I chose to walk away when X wasn't being met.


This is a FANTASTIC post because it encapsulates BOTH sides.

When you talk about your ex not complimenting you...what you're looking at is that your ex did a behavior, before you were together, that showed his appreciation/love/etc. for you...and others. Now you can replace that with a guy being VERY romantic with previous partners and now not even a flower on valentines day for you...or yes..a woman who freely did some sexual acts for previous lovers (because they liked it and she wanted to keep them) that she doesn't now..it's all the same behavior and thought process...the "I never really liked it, and this relationship is strong enough where I don't HAVE to do it" mind set. And as you stated, it affected you, just like the same idea affects men.

But you ALSO talk about HOW it's addressed and dealt with. Bullying into a sex act, or making a partner LESS secure in the relationship is NEVER a good idea and it's not healthy. If a man is having issues with previous sex acts that his wife performed...he REALLY should try and define his issue better, is the issue TRULY SIMPLY that she did xyz with Billy but won't with me....or is it really something deeper, like "I'm not 100% sure my wife is that into me"...and then the guy "finds" examples, such as "well she did xyz with Billy but won't with me". The REAL issue is he's not sure his wife is into him. The specific sex act isn't really the problem. Like I said above, if his wife was wearin-out-the-willy enthusiastically and wanton, would it REALLY be a big issue that it wasn't done with a specific sex act?


----------



## samyeagar

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I doubt those things meant love and consideration to her. It was the position she was put in and likely resented the hell out of it and was probably a big reason he's an ex.
> 
> If I end up back in the single world, I will be looking for someone I do not have to do the things for that I do for H. Because those are the things I'm trying to get away from. It won't mean I'd like him less or he should have less consideration. He'd have more because I would be protecting us and him from slowly ending up where I am now.
> 
> Sadly I, and maybe your wife, might be small favour-ed out after years of dealing with crap. So a warm meal when you are late may be a small thing, it may remind her of a very dark time and bring up feelings she doesn't want to have with/for you.


I completely get what you are saying here because that was part of the issue for my wife, and the whole family gathering was such a fascinating dynamic...

My wife honestly just didn't think about getting me my plate, but with her ex husband, should would have done it because if she didn't, she may very well have ended up getting smacked around later when they got home, or at the very least, silent treatment for a few days. My sister in law is big on acts of service, always doting, so fixed her husbands plate as an expression of love, and my step daughter got her boyfriends plate because well, that's just how she was raised.

For, me, I see something like that as a show of caring and love, and I always will. I didn't get at all pissy with my wife, but I did explain how I felt in that situation, which due to the dynamic, was very different than I would have felt at home. The thing is, she also had to fix her exes plate at home too. The thought of her doing that for me never crossed my mind. I digress...Anyway, she explained her thoughts and feelings, and we both understood and accepted each others positions.

This past Thanksgiving, I was up at 4:00am preparing food for the day as we were going several places all over hell's half acre, but as we were walking up to her mom's house, she stopped me and told me she was going to make my plate for me. I about melted right there. THAT meant so much to me...

...and then...dinner all ready, the blessing had been said, she was deep in a conversation and I was hungry. I fixed a plate for her and I and I brought hers to her. It took her a few seconds to realize what had happened, and I don't think I have ever seen her so crestfallen...


----------



## Dad&Hubby

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I doubt those things meant love and consideration to her. It was the position she was put in and likely resented the hell out of it and was probably a big reason he's an ex.
> 
> If I end up back in the single world, I will be looking for someone I do not have to do the things for that I do for H. Because those are the things I'm trying to get away from. It won't mean I'd like him less or he should have less consideration. He'd have more because I would be protecting us and him from slowly ending up where I am now.
> 
> *Sadly I, and maybe your wife, might be small favour-ed out after years of dealing with crap. So a warm meal when you are late may be a small thing, it may remind her of a very dark time and bring up feelings she doesn't want to have with/for you.*


But this is very much a situation where the "GOOD" husband is paying for the "BAD" husband's poor behavior?....It's also important to recognize what our baggages are and try to NOT bring them into a new relationship.

One of the most important things to ensure a future healthy relationship is to learn from mistakes. Being taken advantage of is wrong...and one should NEVER allow themselves to be taken advantage of...but small acts of love is also important.

Heck it's one of the 5 love languages...Acts of service...it may not be everyone's love language, but EVERYONE likes to get it SOMETIME.

And yes, the same can be said about a wonderful wife being treated less than 100% by her husband because he was previously with a ...not so wonderful woman LOL. We all know it happens...but we should all strive to avoid punishing our future for what we allowed to hurt us in our past.


----------



## samyeagar

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I doubt those things meant love and consideration to her. It was the position she was put in and likely resented the hell out of it and was probably a big reason he's an ex.
> 
> If I end up back in the single world, I will be looking for someone I do not have to do the things for that I do for H. Because those are the things I'm trying to get away from. It won't mean I'd like him less or he should have less consideration. He'd have more because I would be protecting us and him from slowly ending up where I am now.
> 
> *Sadly I, and maybe your wife, might be small favour-ed out after years of dealing with crap. So a warm meal when you are late may be a small thing, it may remind her of a very dark time and bring up feelings she doesn't want to have with/for you*.


I wanted to address the bolded separately, because it is such a subtle, yet loud point. This is a shining example of how the past is never really the past, and how it affect ones present...the small favors, probably unappreciated, rejected, abused from past partners having a very real affect on one's current partner, whether they know it or not. A partner who had nothing to do with, did nothing to cause the dark places of the past.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Dad&Hubby said:


> This is a FANTASTIC post because it encapsulates BOTH sides.


I don't get this. I mean, this is SUPPOSED to be marriage. Why are there sides?


----------



## Wolf1974

samyeagar said:


> I wanted to address the bolded separately, because it is such a subtle, yet loud point. This is a shining example of how the past is never really the past, and how it affect ones present...the small favors, probably unappreciated, rejected, abused from past partners having a very real affect on one's current partner, whether they know it or not. A partner who had nothing to do with, did nothing to cause the dark places of the past.


Exactly. If I was being judged or punished for what the last guy did then that's a woman I wouldn't be able to with. That would be the same as me saying because my x wife cheated with a male coworker I expect a new wife to have no work relationships with men. I can't punish the new for the sins of the old.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't get this. I mean, this is SUPPOSED to be marriage. Why are there sides?


I often feel an underlying, unspoken vibe in many of these threads...full of defensiveness, un ease, mistrust...that things really are on some level a battle for some people...whether their current partner realizes it or not.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Dad&Hubby said:


> But this is very much a situation where the "GOOD" husband is paying for the "BAD" husband's poor behavior?....It's also important to recognize what our baggages are and try to NOT bring them into a new relationship.


OMG if faced with a person you supposedly love, who is reacting from hurt and you think that person is PUNISHING you? My husband did not feel punished. Because he never felt owed in the first place.



> One of the most important things to ensure a future healthy relationship is to learn from mistakes.


Not possible.




> Being taken advantage of is wrong...and one should NEVER allow themselves to be taken advantage of...but small acts of love is also important.


So we should skip youth? That at a five spot will get you a Starbucks.


----------



## Thundarr

I Don't Know said:


> ... It does add a layer of noise. But how does one get rid of the feeling that they are being taken for granted. How does it not matter that it's something that was willingly given before but not now? I know this sounds crazy to most of you but not caring does not make sense to me Anyore than caring does to you.


It's not crazy at all. A lot of things wouldn't set well with me either. But I like the way you phrased it about the layer of noise. I believe there are more layers of noise that we recognize. So we should look at the layers objectively and if we still have a nagging feeling then maybe it's legitimate. The bottom line is that both partners have to make the effort each other know they are important. 


One layer is growth. Most of us can look to our past and remember things we did or things we let others do because we were naive, afraid to be alone, or just insecure. So we should remember that our spouse is this way too. We might not like the person our spouse used to be. My wife wouldn't respect the man I used to be.
Another layer is how we're treated. If my treats me bad then it doesn't mean much if she says she treats me better than anyone else. So I think if we should recognize the opposite must have some merit as well. If she treats me great then I should at least recognize that even if she treated someone else great too. You and others have a good point in this regard though that part of being treated good is that our spouse doesn't say or do things that make us feel like we're second fiddle to a past love.
Another layer is our fairness meter. I remember a few years ago it dawned on me that I always did oral for my wife but she rarely did for me. My fairness meter went crazy once I thought about it. So I told her I want to do that more. Guess what, we men do sh!t test pretty well too. She started doing oral more and I realized I didn't actually want it that often. It was just my insecurity and fairness meter.
Another layer is communication. There's a fine line between a request and an ultimatum and they have different results. There's also a fine line between speaking and being heard and it's all or nothing. To be heard we have to hear as well. 
Another layer is intention. One of Murduk's threads comes to mind where I think his wife intentionally rubs her past in his face just to be mean. To me this is inexcusable. Of course it's directly related to "how we are treated" rather than past. More times than not though, there's no malice in how we learn about our partner's past experiences. Often we learn it during talks where our partner is opening up and trusting us. In those cases, it feels almost like a violation of trust to then use that information against our partner. And it seems like the quickest way to make sure they will stop opening up and talking about things as well. 
Security is the obvious layer. That's the one we all feel right away because no one wants to think we are plan B. So we learn that our partner has done A, B, or C for previous partners but not for. I think it's important for us to analyze the layers rather than jumping straight into "prove it, validate us" mode. We should at least think about these other layers because our partner deserves this from us. And if we don't think they deserve it then that's a red flag I think.

So I think most of this is ramblings but maybe there's something there that makes sense to others.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I often feel an underlying, unspoken vibe in many of these threads...full of defensiveness, un ease, mistrust...that things really are on some level a battle for some people...whether their current partner realizes it or not.


From whom are you getting a vibe of mistrust? You talk as if trust is an on off switch that is turned on on the wedding day. It does not happen like that. Marriage is not a static state. Trust is either fostered or it is eroded.

If I were married to one of these folks who thinks that I love is measured in sex acts that were performed previously, that they are being punished, regardless of ME, my feelings, my safety, my ownership of my own sexuality, there would be eroding. A lot of it. 

Instead I got an environment of fostering.


----------



## samyeagar

Dad&Hubby said:


> But this is very much a situation where the "GOOD" husband is paying for the "BAD" husband's poor behavior?....It's also important to recognize what our baggages are and try to NOT bring them into a new relationship.
> 
> One of the most important things to ensure a future healthy relationship is to learn from mistakes. Being taken advantage of is wrong...and one should NEVER allow themselves to be taken advantage of...but small acts of love is also important.
> 
> Heck it's one of the 5 love languages...Acts of service...it may not be everyone's love language, but EVERYONE likes to get it SOMETIME.
> 
> And yes, the same can be said about a wonderful wife being treated less than 100% by her husband because he was previously with a ...not so wonderful woman LOL. We all know it happens...but we should all strive to avoid punishing our future for what we allowed to hurt us in our past.





Wolf1974 said:


> Exactly. If I was being judged or punished for what the last guy did then that's a woman I wouldn't be able to with. That would be the same as me saying because my x wife cheated with a male coworker I expect a new wife to have no work relationships with men. I can't punish the new for the sins of the old.


Sadly, I think this point is going to be lost on some. Aaaaaaaaaand I can hear it all twisted around now...equating not wanting to do anal now is somehow a sin against the current partner.

The thing is, I feel that it would be very beneficial to be able to self examine exactly why one feels the way they do and be able to admit to themselves when they are actually bringing past issues, past resentments forward to a new partner, and then be able to communicate with them. I think most committed, loving couples, couples who have their partners and relationships best interests at heart can work these things out without new hurts, new resentment, and end up stronger for the effort...but you have to be willing to ask why...not just for your partner, but for yourself as well.


----------



## Thundarr

Dad&Hubby said:


> This is a FANTASTIC post because it encapsulates BOTH sides.
> 
> 
> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get this. I mean, this is SUPPOSED to be marriage. Why are there sides?
Click to expand...

In this case, Dad&Hubby says both sides and then follows that with two paragraphs where p1 = side 1 and p2 = side 2. I don't think his comment was gender related but instead is about psychological sides.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> From whom are you getting a vibe of mistrust? You talk as if trust is an on off switch that is turned on on the wedding day. It does not happen like that. Marriage is not a static state. Trust is either fostered or it is eroded.
> 
> If I were married to one of these folks who thinks that I love is measured in sex acts that were performed previously, that they are being punished, regardless of ME, my feelings, my safety, my ownership of my own sexuality, there would be eroding. A lot of it.
> 
> Instead I got an environment of fostering.


As many women have stated...being afraid that answering the "why" question because it might be used against oneself...a VERY distrustful and defensive.

Certainly a feeling due to past circumstances, and one many people, both men and women, can relate to, but that still doesn't make it fair or right, or in some cases, even healthy.

Take my situation with Thanksgiving dinner...I have never once been any kind of abusive in any kind of way to my wife, quite the opposite in fact. I am very glad my wife didn't feel compelled to make my plate out of fear...means I'm doing a better job than her ex. Still doesn't mean it's fair to me that his behavior led my wife to associate a loving act of service with something very dark and bad.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

samyeagar said:


> I wanted to address the bolded separately, because it is such a subtle, yet loud point. This is a shining example of how the past is never really the past, and how it affect ones present...the small favors, probably unappreciated, rejected, abused from past partners having a very real affect on one's current partner, whether they know it or not. A partner who had nothing to do with, did nothing to cause the dark places of the past.


No one HAS to be with a partner who isn't suitable. I have some issues from past crap which will change how I deal with some situations. I'll be clear about them and they can decide if they can accept or not.

Sometimes it is extreme things causing a change, like abuse, but sometimes all it is is understanding your needs and deal breakers better. When I was younger and didn't experience it I didn't realize that certain things would be needed and others I couldn't live with. 
Now I do so I'll base my partner picking on what I know NOW, not then. So a guy who needs little favours all the time might have been a valid choice for me 9 years ago before I knew it was a deal breaker. Now he would not be. 

You grow and understand yourself and your needs better. 
The past helps you get there and is a part of it but it doesn't mean you can't change from who you were in the past.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't get this. I mean, this is SUPPOSED to be marriage. Why are there sides?


Okay...both sides of this "discussion" that has been going on for a few pages.


----------



## JCD

*LittleDeer* said:


> I agree with that. At least in my case I absolutely can be insecure about things. If a partner rubs things in my face or continues to do something knowing it makes me feel insecure then we have an issue.
> 
> One example would be one ex, would hardly ever compliment me. He did however before we were together, compliment everyone else and me an awful lot. Then nothing. That made me feel unattractive and insecure. I noted once I broke up with him he went back to complimenting others so easily. To me that was a boundary issues, I needed a man who was open and loving and could show his desire for me.
> 
> And yes I think men should be allowed to have a certain level of insecurity. We all just have to watch is it founded or not.
> 
> That said there is a difference with being asked and being whined at and cajoled or bullied. I have no issue with being asked or even being asked twice, but yeah being bullied is not on.
> 
> If I meet someone and he says I absolutely cannot live with out X once a week. I need to decide is that something I can do, can I do X once a week? I may say yes or no, and we both have a choice to peruse things further or walk away. Me I chose to walk away when X wasn't being met.


I think we all agree that bullying is wrong.

The unfortunate thing is that 'bullying' is in the eyes of the victim, and seldom in the eyes of the instigator. Which makes that a difficult thing to judge. She says she's being bullied. He says they are 'having a conversation'.

If he asks twice a week...well she has a point. If he asks twice a year? Less so. There is a lot hinging on how sensitive the topic is to the person being asked.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> As many women have stated...being afraid that answering the "why" question because it might be used against oneself...a VERY distrustful and defensive.
> 
> Certainly a feeling due to past circumstances, and one many people, both men and women, can relate to, but that still doesn't make it fair or right, or in some cases, even healthy.


Thanksfully my husband does not see it as not right or unfair that I get to own my own sexuality.



> Take my situation with Thanksgiving dinner...I have never once been any kind of abusive in any kind of way to my wife, quite the opposite in fact. I am very glad my wife didn't feel compelled to make my plate out of fear...means I'm doing a better job than her ex. Still doesn't mean it's fair to me that his behavior led my wife to associate a loving act of service with something very dark and bad.


I am going to continue to not even touch stupid comparisons of plates and garbage with things like fear and pain. Just not even deigning.


----------



## JCD

*LittleDeer* said:


> My partner and I have both gotten each other plates of food for various reasons. I actually would find the whole situation horrifically sexist, because the women in our family don't sit around watching TV while the men watch football. Usually on special occasions every one pitches in and gets their own food. Unless someone is sick or taking care of the children etc.
> 
> 
> I also don't do car stuff. It's not my thing. However cooking isn't my partners thing so usually I cook and he takes care of the cars or whatever. We divide things up. However I don't see getting a plate of food as a chore. I think it's a normal every day occurrence that both people are capable of and is necessary in order that they get food in their belly.
> 
> My partner also makes me tea often. And I make him his favourite dessert. I just wouldn't want my children learning that the men sit on their butts while the women serve them. That's not something I signed up for.



While I am glad you have a very sharing and establishe relationship, that is not touching on the point.

If you found out that hubby willingly took care of the car for 'that b*tch' in his former life...but didn't lift a finger to take care of your car...would you resent it? Would you ask 'why'?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Dad&Hubby said:


> Okay...both sides of this "discussion" that has been going on for a few pages.


Indeed. That is much my point. Sides.


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> I think we all agree that bullying is wrong.
> 
> The unfortunate thing is that 'bullying' is in the eyes of the victim, and seldom in the eyes of the instigator. Which makes that a difficult thing to judge. She says she's being bullied. He says they are 'having a conversation'.
> 
> If he asks twice a week...well she has a point. If he asks twice a year? Less so. There is a lot hinging on how sensitive the topic is to the person being asked.


How about taking cues from the person who feels more vulnerable?

If either is feeling pressured, things are not going to go well. Why not try to adjust so that things can go as well as possible?


----------



## Dad&Hubby

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I doubt those things meant love and consideration to her. It was the position she was put in and likely resented the hell out of it and was probably a big reason he's an ex.
> 
> If I end up back in the single world, I will be looking for someone I do not have to do the things for that I do for H. Because those are the things I'm trying to get away from. It won't mean I'd like him less or he should have less consideration. He'd have more because I would be protecting us and him from slowly ending up where I am now.
> 
> *Sadly I, and maybe your wife, might be small favour-ed out after years of dealing with crap. So a warm meal when you are late may be a small thing, it may remind her of a very dark time and bring up feelings she doesn't want to have with/for you.*





Dad&Hubby said:


> But this is very much a situation where the "GOOD" husband is paying for the "BAD" husband's poor behavior?....It's also important to recognize what our baggages are and try to NOT bring them into a new relationship.





NobodySpecial said:


> OMG if faced with a person you supposedly love, who is reacting from hurt and you think that person is PUNISHING you? My husband did not feel punished. Because he never felt owed in the first place.


The person I quoted was SAYING SPECIFICALLY that they would stop or also talked about another who might have stopped doing acts of love (service) because a previous partner(s) had taken advantage of it. you brought it up as a form of punishment. Similar to sins of the father being laid on the son. Should a partner EXPECT acts of love...to a degree, yes. Do you expect christmas presents/anniversary plans/insert any number of things that happen in a year....would you be okay if your husband did NOTHING for you? Hey his previous GF was a gold digger so he's never going to buy you anything....That's not right...and that's exactly what we're talking about.

So are you saying you intentionally withhold acts of love from your husband and he's okay with that because "he never expected it in the first place"? And that's okay with you? Fine then.....

I think you're trying to assign something to my post that doesn't exist. I have no idea why either.



Dad&Hubby said:


> One of the most important things to ensure a future healthy relationship is to learn from mistakes.





NobodySpecial said:


> Not possible.


So it's not possible to learn from you past/mistakes etc? Hmmmm....alrighty.



Dad&Hubby said:


> Being taken advantage of is wrong...and one should NEVER allow themselves to be taken advantage of





NobodySpecial said:


> So we should skip youth? That at a five spot will get you a Starbucks.


How did you make that leap. I've been talking about making mistakes and learning from it. Youth is going to be full of mistakes...and the best thing that can happen is to learn from it...INCLUDING WOMEN AND WHAT THEY LIKE...and in turn why their husbands shouldn't bully them into sex because they tried something in their youth..and LEARNED they didn't like it....see how my philosophy works.....swings both ways...But apparently that's not right with you...for some reason.



Dad&Hubby said:


> ...but small acts of love is also important. Heck it's one of the 5 love languages...Acts of service...it may not be everyone's love language, but EVERYONE likes to get it SOMETIME.
> 
> And yes, the same can be said about a wonderful wife being treated less than 100% by her husband because he was previously with a ...not so wonderful woman LOL. We all know it happens...but we should all strive to avoid punishing our future for what we allowed to hurt us in our past.


So I wanted to make sure I quoted ALL of the context of this post..because all too often, creative editing is used to twist or skew perceptions...That said..

Are you intentionally trying to be obtuse or find fault with other posters...(which apparently falls along gender lines?)

If not...I'm sorry, but that's how it is appearing to me. And if you look at many of my posts...INCLUDING this one (although you cut that part out in your quoting) I really try to make many of these issues gender neutral because we're all people and a lot more alike than different.


----------



## JCD

NobodySpecial said:


> Indeed. That is much my point. Sides.


I am glad to read you have never had a difference of opinion or a conflict of interests with your husband ever.

Because if you had, you'd have 'sides'.

You must never have had such conflicts because you are so AGOG at the very idea of sides.


----------



## NobodySpecial

JCD said:


> While I am glad you have a very sharing and establishe relationship, that is not touching on the point.
> 
> If you found out that hubby willingly took care of the car for 'that b*tch' in his former life...but didn't lift a finger to take care of your car...would you resent it? Would you ask 'why'?


Not in the least. Why would any conversation/agreement/arrangement that they made whether by function or DISfunction have any bearing on what we decide between the two of us? Why would I even want to control what chores he choose to do or not do?


----------



## NobodySpecial

JCD said:


> I am glad to read you have never had a difference of opinion or a conflict of interests with your husband ever.
> 
> Because if you had, you'd have 'sides'.


We don't face differences of opinions from the standpoint of sides but from the standpoint of a team trying to come to workable solutions for the team. Works really well for us.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> How about taking cues from the person who feels more vulnerable?
> 
> If either is feeling pressured, things are not going to go well. Why not try to adjust so that things can go as well as possible?


"If you really REALLY loved me, you'd be able to look at me and know EXACTLY what I was feeling and also be able to EXACTLY ascribe that emotion to a specific cause. Cause...me being sad can't be caused by a DOZEN unrelated and unknowable factors."

I believe the technical term for this is 'telepathy'.

And outside of Spock, you really don't see it much.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^ We have differences of opinions. But not conflicts of interest since WE are the common interest. Not this or that, or him or me.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Thanksfully my husband does not see it as not right or unfair that I get to own my own sexuality.


Just because something is accepted as "it is what it is" does not change the fairness or rightness. In most loving and trusting relationships, I think most people can and do very quickly lay to rest the rightness and fairness and accept it as it is.



> *I am going to continue to not even touch stupid comparisons of plates and garbage with things like fear and pain*. Just not even deigning.


Except my wife DID equate things like plates with fear and pain.


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> "If you really REALLY loved me, you'd be able to look at me and know EXACTLY what I was feeling and also be able to EXACTLY ascribe that emotion to a specific cause. Cause...me being sad can't be caused by a DOZEN unrelated and unknowable factors."
> 
> I believe the technical term for this is 'telepathy'.
> 
> And outside of Spock, you really don't see it much.


My husband knows me pretty well, JCD. He's been paying some attention over the last couple decades.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

NobodySpecial said:


> ^^ We have differences of opinions. But not conflicts of interest since WE are the common interest. Not this or that, or him or me.


That is exactly the right approach...I'm commonly talking about conflict resolution and whether or not you take a "me versus you" approach (unhealthy) or "us versus the problem" (healthy).

But to state there are NEVER sides is to insinuate that there is never conflict/disagreement etc. The FIRST stage of the conflict/disagreement etc. is "sides" because you have two people with 2 different situations that don't match...it's how you address said conflict that makes the difference.

I'll give you an example from my life.

My buddy shoots me a text at work..."I have an opening at Saturday at 11am that we can go golfing"

Same day my wife is finally able to get a hair appointment (after trying for 2 months) for saturday at noon.

We have kids, including a 6 month old (at that time).

The "sides" were...I wanted to go golfing, she wanted her hair done. We approached it from the "us" scenario and decided that she'd get her hair done and I'd forgo because she had been trying for so long her "opportunity cost" was much greater than mine. I'd go golfing on Sunday (with the buddy who texted me or someone else). Money's tight and it would be silly to spend for a babysitter.

But to say there was NEVER any "sides" is being disingenuous. We compromised and looked at each others situations and came up with a solution that was right for both.


----------



## JCD

The crux of this is that it isn't about anal, it is about how much a partner is into their specific spouse. And also how 'damaged' they are and how much of that resentment causes them to treat the new relationship with, it seems, a hell of a lot less effort in some cases than their prior one.

Fair enough. We all want that 100%...but we aren't all willing to GIVE that 100%.

And if things get too 'unbalanced', where OMG, I can't carry another plate of food/darn another sock/do you really need to be so NEEDY...well...it's very likely that YOU will get a lot less than 100. In fact, far less than you were getting before.

Which starts a vicious cycle. Because you don't owe him an explanation...or civility...or even a plate of food in specific social situation.


----------



## JCD

I note only one woman even touched on Gus or my resentment question.

Why the reticence ladies?


----------



## samyeagar

Dad&Hubby said:


> That is exactly the right approach...I'm commonly talking about conflict resolution and whether or not you take a "me versus you" approach (unhealthy) or "us versus the problem" (healthy).
> 
> But to state there are NEVER sides is to insinuate that there is never conflict/disagreement etc. The FIRST stage of the conflict/disagreement etc. is "sides" because you have two people with 2 different situations that don't match...it's how you address said conflict that makes the difference.
> 
> I'll give you an example from my life.
> 
> My buddy shoots me a text at work..."I have an opening at Saturday at 11am that we can go golfing"
> 
> Same day my wife is finally able to get a hair appointment (after trying for 2 months) for saturday at noon.
> 
> We have kids, including a 6 month old (at that time).
> 
> The "sides" were...I wanted to go golfing, she wanted her hair done. We approached it from the "us" scenario and decided that she'd get her hair done and I'd forgo because she had been trying for so long her "opportunity cost" was much greater than mine. I'd go golfing on Sunday (with the buddy who texted me or someone else). Money's tight and it would be silly to spend for a babysitter.
> 
> But to say there was NEVER any "sides" is being disingenuous. We compromised and looked at each others situations and came up with a solution that was right for both.


And often times we move so quickly through the sides stage into the resolution stage that we don't even notice we did...but we still do. One measure of the seriousness of the issue can be how long it takes the individuals to get to the resolution stage, and I suspect that the happiest couples, the most compatible couples are the ones who can, far more often than not, move quickly through the "sides" stage with no resentment or hurt feelings.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JCD said:


> I note only one woman even touched on Gus or my resentment question.
> 
> Why the reticence ladies?


Lots of post, can you repeat the question or tell me which page/post.


----------



## NobodySpecial

JCD said:


> The crux of this is that it isn't about anal, it is about how much a partner is into their specific spouse. And also how 'damaged' they are and how much of that resentment causes them to treat the new relationship with, it seems, *a hell of a lot less effort in some cases than their prior one.*


I cannot even begin to imagine how you can infer that from what you have read.



> Fair enough. We all want that 100%...but we aren't all willing to GIVE that 100%.


I don't want that. Not even 2%. Wow what a weird load of assumptions and inferences. 



> And if things get too 'unbalanced', where OMG, I can't carry another plate of food/darn another sock/do you really need to be so NEEDY...well...it's very likely that YOU will get a lot less than 100. In fact, far less than you were getting before.
> 
> Which starts a vicious cycle. Because you don't owe him an explanation...or civility...or even a plate of food in specific social situation.


I don't even know what that means. I don't check my relationship with my husband with scales. Neither does he.


----------



## samyeagar

I'm sure there are some who will dismiss this as stupid, but I implore others to look deeper at the bigger picture and the power of symbolism.

One of the biggest things with my ex wife was my feelings of being taken for granted...to the extent that it was one of the major reasons we divorced. Perhaps the most symbolic situation for me was a simple cup of coffee...

Most of the time, I would get up for work with just enough time to get out the door, while my ex wife was able to sleep in later than me. One morning, I had to get up early, and I made a pot of coffee...enough for me and I made enough for her for when she woke up. Later that day, she thanked me profusely for how much she appreciated it, how thoughtful it was, helpful with her busy mornings etc. So from that point on, I made it a point to get up early enough to set the pot brewing for when she woke up, whether or not I was having any. Then one morning quite a while later, I wasn't feeling well, and got up with just enough time to make it out the door, and I didn't make the coffee. For as appreciative as she was all that time before, the vitriol spewed ten fold when I didn't do it.

That was one of the most glaring wake up calls for me, and I promised myself that I would never allow myself to be taken for granted like that again.

Now that I am remarried with a wife who also sleeps in later than me, and also likes her morning cup of coffee...it's kind of funny, and probably a bit childish of me, but very close to consciously, I just couldn't bring myself to make the coffee in the morning. My wife never knew a thing.

Then one morning as it turned out, I wanted some coffee and I made a pot, with enough for my wife. She was so appreciative of it, and yep, the next morning, I almost didn't make any just on principle. It was a very conscious effort on my part to move beyond the trigger of history repeating itself, but I made the coffee.

A few weeks later, I was running late, and didn't make any, and I'll be damned if my wife didn't make a tongue in cheek comment about how much better and warmer her morning would have been if she'd had some coffee to take with her to work.

WHAM! Hit me like a freakin' truck. It was a very conscious effort on my part to not allow what happened with my ex wife to affect how I reacted to my wife. My wife deserves that effort.


----------



## RoseAglow

ETA: I started this post earlier this morning and the thread has moved WAY off it since then. But for what it's worth....



I Don't Know said:


> RoseAglow and thundarr, that makes a a ton of sense actually. It does add a layer of noise. *But how does one get rid of the feeling that they are being taken for granted. How does it not matter that it's something that was willingly given before but not now?* I know this sounds crazy to most of you but not caring does not make sense to me Anyore than caring does to you.


IDK- these are great questions!!! 

I can only speak from my experience. YMMV.

Re the blue: IME, the only way to get rid of the feeling that you (general you) are being taken for granted is to change the situation so that you are no longer being taken for granted.

I don't mean to sound simplistic or flippant by saying that; it's just that nothing else will actually solve the problem.


Re the purple: If you know that your wife was very domestic for her ex, and hasn't been for you, that is simply information. It is not a matter of 'not caring' IMO; it is more a matter of realizing what it means that you do care.

I used to believe that my emotions told me something about "You". If I was mad, it was because "you" were a d!ck. If I was hurt it was because "you" were selfish. Etc. It took me decades to realize and understand that my emotions don't provide any information about the other person- emotions are information about what something means to ME.
They inform me how* I feel* about something.

I see no good purpose or service in ignoring one's feelings. If you feel hurt because your wife didn't save a plate for you, it is important to know "this hurts, I don't like it."

AND it is also VERY important to realize that YOUR hurt doesn't say anything about her actions. 

Your hurt doesn't mean that:

She is selfish
She doesn't love you
She loved her first husband more than she loves you
Any other story you might have in your head based on your own fears, etc.

(If you bring any of those up in a discussion to try to solve the problem, then she can and probably will argue each point. You'll never solve the real problem if the argue devolves into whether or not you are correct about her actions/motivations. I use the term "Noise". It is not getting anywhere close to the Signal, the actual problem.)

Your hurt says that it is important to you that you have dinner waiting. Delve deeper and you might realize that it is important for you to feel included, or that domestic service is one of your love languages/emotional needs, or that you are moving into a bad place in your relationship and now everything is become painful. 

(If you keep going, you might find that your hurt is also in a vicious circle with some "stories" in your head, and the stories and hurt feed each other on. Things like "She would do it with him but not with me; the other POS was still worth more than I am; I can't even get what a POS would get; I am less valuable than that POS" etc. 

It is REALLY important to identify those stories and remove them. They really ARE the "living dead" in your head, they are old messages that poison your perspective.)

Only you can determine exactly what your hurt means. It is individualized.

IMO this is what is meant by the saying "Own your feelings." Accept that what you feel is about YOU, not about anyone else.

If you want to solve the problem by ensuring that you are no longer being taken for granted, IMO the best, most efficient, most effective way to so is to take ownership and just address it. 


"I would really like it if you'd save me a plate the next time I am working late.

"I was hurt when I got home and saw that you didn't save dinner for me."

"I am wiling to work late so we can meet our financial goals. I was annoyed when I got home and saw that the rest of the family had dinner but nothing was saved for me. I'd appreciate it if you would have dinner for me as well."

Not a single item mentions the past. It's because adding "like you did with your ex-husband" is at best useless and at worse harmful to your cause. What she did for her husband becomes irrelevant once your needs are met, your preferences are priority, and you feel cared for and loved.

Of course, your wife might be very selfish. She might be an inconsiderate person. She also might not love you very much; she might still be hung up on her ex. 

You will know what kind of person she is by how she reacts to you. She is not selfish because you are hurt; she is selfish if she puts her feelings/desires/preferences above yours. 

You are responsible for your actions and feelings; she is responsible for hers. 

It sounds like it's just semantics. It's not though. In my life it was a critical realization.


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> IDK- these are great questions!!!
> 
> I can only speak from my experience. YMMV.
> 
> Re the blue: IME, the only way to get rid of the feeling that you (general you) are being taken for granted is to change the situation so that you are no longer being taken for granted.
> 
> I don't mean to sound simplistic or flippant by saying that; it's just that nothing else will actually solve the problem.
> 
> 
> Re the purple: If you know that your wife was very domestic for her ex, and hasn't been for you, that is simply information. It is not a matter of 'not caring' IMO; it is more a matter of realizing what it means that you do care.
> 
> I used to believe that my emotions told me something about "You". If I was mad, it was because "you" were a d!ck. If I was hurt it was because "you" were selfish. Etc. It took me decades to realize and understand that my emotions don't provide any information about the other person- emotions are information about what something means to ME.
> They inform me how* I feel* about something.
> 
> I see no good purpose or service in ignoring one's feelings. If you feel hurt because your wife didn't save a plate for you, it is important to know "this hurts, I don't like it."
> 
> AND it is also VERY important to realize that YOUR hurt doesn't say anything about her actions.
> 
> Your hurt doesn't mean that:
> 
> She is selfish
> She doesn't love you
> She loved her first husband more than she loves you
> Any other story you might have in your head based on your own fears, etc.
> 
> (If you bring any of those up in a discussion to try to solve the problem, then she can and probably will argue each point. You'll never solve the real problem if the argue devolves into whether or not you are correct about her actions/motivations. I use the term "Noise". It is not getting anywhere close to the Signal, the actual problem.)
> 
> Your hurt says that it is important to you that you have dinner waiting. Delve deeper and you might realize that it is important for you to feel included, or that domestic service is one of your love languages/emotional needs, or that you are moving into a bad place in your relationship and now everything is become painful.
> 
> (If you keep going, you might find that your hurt is also in a vicious circle with some "stories" in your head, and the stories and hurt feed each other on. Things like "She would do it with him but not with me; the other POS was still worth more than I am; I can't even get what a POS would get; I am less valuable than that POS" etc.
> 
> It is REALLY important to identify those stories and remove them. They really ARE the "living dead" in your head, they are old messages that poison your perspective.)
> 
> Only you can determine exactly what your hurt means. It is individualized.
> 
> IMO this is what is meant by the saying "Own your feelings." Accept that what you feel is about YOU, not about anyone else.
> 
> If you want to solve the problem by ensuring that you are no longer being taken for granted, IMO the best, most efficient, most effective way to so is to take ownership and just address it.
> 
> 
> "I would really like it if you'd save me a plate the next time I am working late.
> 
> "I was hurt when I got home and saw that you didn't save dinner for me."
> 
> "I am wiling to work late so we can meet our financial goals. I was annoyed when I got home and saw that the rest of the family had dinner but nothing was saved for me. I'd appreciate it if you would have dinner for me as well."
> 
> Not a single item mentions the past. It's because adding "like you did with your ex-husband" is at best useless and at worse harmful to your cause. What she did for her husband becomes irrelevant once your needs are met, your preferences are priority, and you feel cared for and loved.
> 
> Of course, your wife might be very selfish. She might be an inconsiderate person. She also might not love you very much; she might still be hung up on her ex.
> 
> You will know what kind of person she is by how she reacts to you. She is not selfish because you are hurt; she is selfish if she puts her feelings/desires/preferences above yours.
> 
> You are responsible for your actions and feelings; she is responsible for hers.
> 
> It sounds like it's just semantics. It's not though. In my life it was a critical realization.


I would like to expand on this with some of my own thoughts. 

Once one partner makes their feelings known, it is then up to the other partner to consider them, and their own reactions to them. They also must consider why they reacted that way, and is that reaction in the best interests of the relationship.

In my coffee example above, my wife, albeit with humor and without malice, she expressed that she had appreciated me making coffee, and had noticed when I didn't. I don't think she was mad at me, or taking me for granted, and I think that she would have been fine if I had never made coffee again.

I knew how I felt, she expressed how she felt, and so I dug into how her reaction made me feel. I could have just never made it again, knowing it was to keep me from feeling taken for granted, but I also knew that those feelings came from my feelings for my ex wife, and not my current wife. I realized that I was projecting my feelings about my ex onto my current, and when I separated them out, I had absolutely no reason to stop making coffee for my wife. And so I didn't.


----------



## norajane

Psst, sam, programmable timers are a feature now on many coffee makers. You and your wife can take turns setting up the pot the night before.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> Psst, sam, programmable timers are a feature now on many coffee makers. You and your wife can take turns setting up the pot the night before.


Way to sidestep the broader, actual point  Yes, I know about programmable coffee makers, but she won't touch the thing...that's my job  Sometimes, I make it the night before, sometimes I don't get around to it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Way to sidestep the broader, actual point  Yes, I know about programmable coffee makers, but she won't touch the thing...that's my job  Sometimes, I make it the night before, sometimes I don't get around to it.


That is not what I would going about problem solving as a team. She gets to decide for YOU that YOU HAVE to that chore? That would not be my choice of how to go about things.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^ Furthermore, she does not have to touch the things if it truly is YOUR job.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> That is not what I would going about problem solving as a team. She gets to decide for YOU that YOU HAVE to that chore? That would not be my choice of how to go about things.


Good lord...how about you lighten up a bit...sheesh


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Good lord...how about you lighten up a bit...sheesh


Huh? I guess I am understanding why youo cannot understand what I am saying. You are already neck deep in quid pro quo and scale and measure land.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Way to sidestep the broader, actual point


I think you have gotten so broad that the OP has fallen out.


----------



## RoseAglow

samyeagar said:


> I would like to expand on this with some of my own thoughts.
> 
> Once one partner makes their feelings known, *it is then up to the other partner to consider them, and their own reactions to them. They also must consider why they reacted that way*, and is that reaction in the best interests of the relationship.


This is a great description of ownership IMO.



> In my coffee example above, my wife, albeit with humor and without malice, she expressed that she had appreciated me making coffee, and had noticed when I didn't. I don't think she was mad at me, or taking me for granted, and I think that she would have been fine if I had never made coffee again.
> 
> I knew how I felt, she expressed how she felt, and so I dug into how her reaction made me feel. I could have just never made it again, knowing it was to keep me from feeling taken for granted, but *I also knew that those feelings came from my feelings for my ex wife*, and not my current wife. I realized that *I was projecting my feelings about my ex* onto my current, and when I separated them out, I had absolutely no reason to stop making coffee for my wife. And so I didn't.


Yes!! I love it- the bold is great self-awareness. 

It might not work for everyone, but I like the coffee story. I'm the CoffeeMaker in the family, too. It's an easy way to do something nice for my guy. Win-win.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Huh? I guess I am understanding why youo cannot understand what I am saying. You are already neck deep in quid pro quo and scale and measure land.


I have a kind of bizarre and out there question for you. Please answer the hypothetical, and not sidestep it by saying "but this would never happen..." or something like that.

What if you heard your husband say to you "I love my ex more than you, but she divorced me, and so now I am with you." What would your reaction be?


----------



## RoseAglow

NobodySpecial said:


> I think you have gotten so broad that the OP has fallen out.


I think the whole thread has worked its way into an entirely different conversation. It's barely recognizable. Ain't TAM grand?


----------



## I Don't Know

Thank you for finishing your post even though the thread has moved on. This thing is a runaway train.

So, I took college algebra four times before I passed. At a certain point in the class I just didn't understand anything and I would stop going and drop. The first two times my teacher was a mathematician, the third time my teacher was an engineer, the fourth time my teacher was a teacher and everything just clicked. You are that teacher. It just clicked. And now I have to do something with that understanding.

(If you keep going, you might find that your hurt is also in a vicious circle with some "stories" in your head, and the stories and hurt feed each other on. Things like "She would do it with him but not with me; the other POS was still worth more than I am; I can't even get what a POS would get; I am less valuable than that POS" etc. 

It is REALLY important to identify those stories and remove them. They really ARE the "living dead" in your head, they are old messages that poison your perspective.)


You are absolutely right about the story. If it wasn't for the story, I don't know if I would have cared one way or another that there was nothing left out for me. I'm guessing probably not.

If I approach my wife with an issue and frame it as this is something in our relationship that I don't feel good about, I'm sure we could work something out. If I mention an ex in anyway, it's going to be a fight. Finally, I see how "I want us to have sex more often" is vastly different than "you had sex with so and so more and he was a ****." (Although I will probably always wonder why she would have sex with the **** in the first place.) Even though the underlying motivation is the same, she hears "I want what he got only because he got it" instead of "I want ____ because it's what *I* want."

I'm mostly just solidifying this stuff in my head. Sorry it's repetitive.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I have a kind of bizarre and out there question for you. Please answer the hypothetical, and not sidestep it by saying "but this would never happen..." or something like that.
> 
> What if you heard your husband say to you "I love my ex more than you, but she divorced me, and so now I am with you." What would your reaction be?


Okie dokie. Have a nice life. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> I think the whole thread has worked its way into an entirely different conversation. It's barely recognizable. Ain't TAM grand?


I think the original question was answered pretty quickly...most women in the real world have not experienced this, and most would be very turned off if they did. Most guys said they don't ask things like this.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I have a kind of bizarre and out there question for you. * Please answer *the hypothetical, and *not sidestep it *by saying "but this would never happen..." or something like that.


Please consider this question. Do you recognize the attempt to control rather than listen when you say something like "sidestep". When you don't like what someone says to you, when it does not match with what you want to think, you say they 

are side stepping
are disingenuous
need to lighten up.

ANYTHING that we mean what we say.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I think the original question was answered pretty quickly...most women in the real world have not experienced this, and most would be very turned off if they did. Most guys said they don't ask things like this.


I wonder on what you base these assertions?


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> *I wonder on what you base these assertions?*


...and many more, but I assume you get the picture. I did notice you were one of the few that HAD been asked these things. I'm sorry your experience has been so different from so many others.



soccermom2three said:


> No, I've never been asked.





Anon Pink said:


> I voted other.
> 
> I have never been asked. I have asked for lots of info from my H after we were married. I volunteered a little bit of mine but he never asked.
> 
> I can see how sexual histories are relevant to the relationship, but only in a minor way.
> 
> I wanted to know how many real GF's he had had. How long were their relationships and what were the circumstances of the break ups. I didn't need nor want to know how often they had sex, where they had sex, or how crazy the sex was. I was specifically interested in the relationship aspect and while sex was part of it it was the most important parts.
> 
> I did ask the circumstance of losing his virginity, but did not volunteer mine.
> 
> In turn, he never asked me anything and waited for me to volunteer.





RoseAglow said:


> I voted "other". I've never been asked. In my more serious relationships we've talked about ex's and dating history as a "Get to know you" kind of thing. Never numbers or details.





norajane said:


> I have not been asked for numbers, inventories, lists, or names. Nor have I asked for such things.
> 
> People I've dated in the past have wanted to know general things about relationships and why they ended, but no details like that.
> 
> My SO and I are pretty open about this kind of stuff, but neither of us grill the other. It's mostly stuff we volunteer during conversations.


ETA: I had multi'd a bunch more from the first four or five pages, but they didn't carry over...


----------



## norajane

samyeagar said:


> Way to sidestep the broader, actual point  Yes, I know about programmable coffee makers, but she won't touch the thing...that's my job  Sometimes, I make it the night before, sometimes I don't get around to it.


Eek, I saw it as a way to defuse the whole situation which was emotionally loaded, but didn't have to be. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking outside the box (outside the emotions and existing construct) and eliminating an issue that had turned into a test of some sort.


----------



## Maricha75

samyeagar said:


> ...and many more, but I assume you get the picture. I did notice you were one of the few that HAD been asked these things. I'm sorry your experience has been so different from so many others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETA: I had multi'd a bunch more from the first four or five pages, but they didn't carry over...


Not sure if I was one of those you multi'd. I was never asked, but I gave the info by choice. We were discussing sexual experience (or lack thereof), and I told him everything there was to tell (which wasn't much considering it was twice, once with each... and that one has been in the family since he married my cousin about 5 years after we had broken up). But, the majority of those who posted, at least in the beginning, had never been asked, and the majority of the men who have posted didn't ask either. NS, Sam is basing this on those who have posted in this thread.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> Eek, I saw it as a way to defuse the whole situation which was emotionally loaded, but didn't have to be.
> 
> I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking outside the box (outside the emotions and existing construct) and eliminating an issue that had turned into a test of some sort.


I appreciate that, but ultimately, I chose to diffuse things by a little introspection into the reasons why I was feeling the way I was. My wife had done nothing to deserve me questioning her taking me for granted, especially when the reason was my feelings about my ex wife.

I don't mind making coffee, and I continued to make it for my ex wife, even though it was done with resentment. Why shouldn't I extend the same kindness to my wife, who had done nothing to build any resentment, and in fact, truly appreciates the gesture?


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## samyeagar

Maricha75 said:


> Not sure if I was one of those you multi'd. I was never asked, but I gave the info by choice. We were discussing sexual experience (or lack thereof), and I told him everything there was to tell (which wasn't much considering it was twice, once with each... and that one has been in the family since he married my cousin about 5 years after we had broken up). But, the majority of those who posted, at least in the beginning, had never been asked, and the majority of the men who have posted didn't ask either. *NS, Sam is basing this on those who have posted in this thread*.


And I would like to add that part of the premise of the original question was the fact that people had never heard of, or experienced this issue to any great degree until coming to TAM...I think it is safe to say that those who HAVE experienced this, even on TAM are in a possibly very small unfortunate minority.


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## chillymorn

I like to ask did you ever have sex with someone bigger than me and if she says yes I ask can you tell me about it as I masturbate!

and then I say well I had tighter than you so there!!!!!!!!!!

want to grab a pizza.


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## Thundarr

Few of us can appreciate your sense of humor. And we feel guilty for it.


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## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> While I am glad you have a very sharing and establishe relationship, that is not touching on the point.
> 
> If you found out that hubby willingly took care of the car for 'that b*tch' in his former life...but didn't lift a finger to take care of your car...would you resent it? Would you ask 'why'?


Here's the thing, I think sex is a completely different kettle of fish to cars etc. sex is so intimate and personal. I don't view fixing cars and cooking in the same way sex. 

I have cooked for a lot of people. I haven't had sex with a lot of people. Because to me it's something very personal that is reserved for someone I have a very intimate relationship with. 

So firstly if I have the courage to tell my partner that some things about sex distress me and I personally would say why, then yes I think he needs to respect my boundaries. 

I do think other things in a relationship are different. He might want to know why I used to do just about all the housework and child care, he could take it that I don't love him because I don't do all of that anymore. But the truth would be that I was mostly a SAHM for around 4 years when I did that stuff. So situations change. 

I also don't call his ex a ****. We all grow and change. But again if he was really romantic in the past and was no longer willing to be with me, we probably would have ended things a long time ago. I'm very upfront about what I want and need in a loving relationship and expect him to be upfront too. Just don't deceive me and pretend you are romantic, sexual, adventurous etc and then become some lame boring person. I would have to move on. 

Don't tell me that it's not a problem that I don't want anal, and then keep bringing it up. Because obviously it's a problem.


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## *LittleDeer*

JCD said:


> The crux of this is that it isn't about anal, it is about how much a partner is into their specific spouse. And also how 'damaged' they are and how much of that resentment causes them to treat the new relationship with, it seems, a hell of a lot less effort in some cases than their prior one.
> 
> Fair enough. We all want that 100%...but we aren't all willing to GIVE that 100%.
> 
> And if things get too 'unbalanced', where OMG, I can't carry another plate of food/darn another sock/do you really need to be so NEEDY...well...it's very likely that YOU will get a lot less than 100. In fact, far less than you were getting before.
> 
> Which starts a vicious cycle. Because you don't owe him an explanation...or civility...or even a plate of food in specific social situation.


I disagree. Who says women don't want anal or other sex acts because they are "damaged" many sex acts are just plain unpleasurable for some. 

I am willing to give 100% of what I've got to give within my boundaries. Boundaries are healthy we all should have them. 

I think I'm very generous with my partner and he is to me too. So it's just not an issue to us.


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## Thundarr

So last night, my wife and I were celebrating my brother's and sil's anniversary with them. Their kids and their kids partners were there and my youngest son and his girlfriend was as well. It didn't take long before the movies were pulled out of the attic and we were watching all kinds of memories from years past.

One of the movies was Christmas at my dad's house from 1994. All of the kids were little and we all looked so young. To be more specific my brother, sil, me and my ex all looked young but this movie was two years before my wife and I started dating and one year before my ex and I split. So my wife was watching an old home movie where me and the ex looked happy and I know it didn't feel good to watch. She leaned over and whispered that she didn't like seeing me with HER. But that was it. She didn't flip out. I know she understood it was the past and she knows our sil wasn't thinking or didn't realize what was on the tape.

This is a real world recent example of how to handle the past with grace. If or when I trigger over something from my wife's past, this and things like it are what I'll remind myself of. She deserves me to pay her the same respect she gives to me. Some day when we're talking about why we love and trust each other, I'll bring this example up and express my gratitude to her for being who she is.


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## firebelly1

Fozzy said:


> Wife: Why won't you ever go down on me?
> 
> Husband: I don't like it.
> 
> Wife: You have a trophy on the mantle. It says "Cunning Linguist #1--Topeka 1999"
> 
> Husband: Yeah, but I liked the way those ladies tasted. I just don't care for the way you do. Don't take it personal! How about I go get you a plate of food?


I think what gets some of the women's goats is that some of the men seem to be saying they are ENTITLED to do what the past guy has done whether she likes it or not. But this little parable is indicative of a different kind of disconnect. Fozzy seems to be saying that when a woman won't do what she did with the last guy he feels it as a measure of his worth. Last guy was rewarded with anal. Current SO, apparently, is not deemed by the woman to be good enough or worthy. 

I intellectually get this and can see why a man might feel this way but I just can't imagine any woman approaching it like this. If she used to do it and now doesn't want to it is about HER not HIM.


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## samyeagar

firebelly1 said:


> I think what gets some of the women's goats is *that some of the men seem to be saying they are ENTITLED to do what the past guy has done whether she likes it or not*. But this little parable is indicative of a different kind of disconnect. Fozzy seems to be saying that when a woman won't do what she did with the last guy he feels it as a measure of his worth. Last guy was rewarded with anal. Current SO, apparently, is not deemed by the woman to be good enough or worthy.
> 
> I intellectually get this and can see why a man might feel this way but I just can't imagine any woman approaching it like this. If she used to do it and now doesn't want to it is about HER not HIM.


VERY few of the men here have said anything remotely close to that. We have made it very clear that we are perfectly fine with a "yeah, I tried it and it hurt, so I don't want to try it again" as more than good enough to not go there now. Virtually all of us have presented scenarios right in line with what Fozzy did.

Where the biggest disconnect seemed to be were with the women who felt like a partner should be satisfied with "I don't want to" as more than enough reason, and how dare he ask why. I can understand that with a ONS or fling, but I think for most people, men and women both who are in committed relationships, that won't really cut it.


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## joe kidd

I really don't care about a woman's sexual past as long as it stays there.


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## Starstarfish

> VERY few of the men here have said anything remotely close to that. We have made it very clear that we are perfectly fine with a "yeah, I tried it and it hurt, so I don't want to try it again" as more than good enough to not go there now. Virtually all of us have presented scenarios right in line with what Fozzy did.


Very few of the men on this thread, perhaps. 

But there have been plenty of threads wherein at least one poster (currently banned IIRC, so I'm not going to poke by naming names) said that if a man wasn't getting anal but his wife had with an ex he should "get out the lube tonight" or "sign the papers."

And the men there didn't feel particularly inclined to disagree with that sentiment. 

So - how do you know when a man starts that line of questioning which way it's heading?


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## samyeagar

Lila said:


> Why can't the reason be as simple as "I don't want to"? :scratchhead:


It's a perfectly fine answer, but very guarded and leads to "why?" If simply asking why leads to feelings of defensiveness, that to me suggests underlying trust issues within the intimate dynamic of the relationship.


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## samyeagar

Lila said:


> Why is the truth considered a guarded response?
> 
> The truth is...sometimes the answer is just what it is. Asking why on a truthful answer creates a circular argument.
> 
> S1: Why?
> 
> S2: I don't want to.
> 
> S1: Well, why don't you want to
> 
> S2: Because I have no desire to
> 
> S1: Well, why don't you have a desire to
> 
> S2: Not something I'm interested in doing.
> 
> ......and on, and on, and on.


What you describe is badgering on the part of S1, and S2 seeming evasive. A more open response to the initial "Why?" would be something along the lines of "That's not something I've ever had any interest in doing."

Of course it could happen, but most of the time, things don't just pop up out of the blue, deep into a relationship, and when they do, there is always a reason why, and it is perfectly fair to turn it around asking why do you now want to try something.


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## turnera

S1's badgering most likely TAUGHT S2 to be evasive.


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## samyeagar

samyeagar said:


> It's a perfectly fine answer, but very guarded and leads to "why?" *If simply asking why leads to feelings of defensiveness, that to me suggests underlying trust issues within the intimate dynamic of the relationship*.





turnera said:


> S1's badgering most likely TAUGHT S2 to be evasive.


See my previous post...


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## Thundarr

Lila said:


> Why can't the reason be as simple as "I don't want to"? :scratchhead:


That's how it normally works IRL. Guy says I want to do X; gal says I don't like it; guy says okay; and maybe that exchange happens a couple of times. And that's all. But these threads are often either hypothetical or are outlier stories. Below are outlier "what if" scenarios that bias our perception of what posters of the other gender are saying on some of these threads. In my opinion that is.

Men
Men imagine some messed up scenario where their spouse flaunts how much she loved doing crazy things with other guys and she nonchalantly doesn't feel like doing it now and really doesn't care what he wants or thinks. Well that's not very realistic and it's certainly not what women are defending.

Women
Women imagine their spouse who otherwise treats them with respect learning the most wild thing they've ever done with anyone even once and becoming obsessed wanting 24/7 crazy action forever and ready to divorce them if they don't comply. Well that's equally not very realistic and not what men are defending.


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## Starstarfish

> Women imagine their spouse who otherwise treats them with respect learning the most wild thing they've ever done with anyone even once and becoming obsessed wanting 24/7 crazy action forever and ready to divorce them if they don't comply. Well that's equally not very realistic and not what men are defending.


As I said in my last post... I don't need to imagine it - it's what has been argued by some right here on TAM. 

So either you argue TAM posters are full of it and would never actually follow through with the half the claims they make or ... there are some men are indeed defending this, even if its not the men posting on this particular thread.


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## Maricha75

Lila said:


> Why is the truth considered a guarded response?
> 
> The truth is...sometimes the answer is just what it is. Asking why on a truthful answer creates a circular argument.
> 
> S1: Why?
> 
> S2: I don't want to.
> 
> S1: Well, why don't you want to
> 
> S2: Because I have no desire to
> 
> S1: Well, why don't you have a desire to
> 
> S2: Not something I'm interested in doing.
> 
> ......and on, and on, and on.


So it couldn't possibly go 
S1: Why?
S2: I don't want to.
S1: Ok... any particular reason? Bad experience? Just not interested?
S2: Just not something that has ever interested me.
S1: Ok, that's cool. How about ___ instead?
S2: That works!

I just don't understand the whole evasive mentality. Seriously, if someone acted like the quote above, I would think he or she was hiding something, even if that person protested that wasn't the case.


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## Thundarr

Starstarfish said:


> As I said in my last post... I don't need to imagine it - it's what has been argued by some right here on TAM.
> 
> So either you argue TAM posters are full of it and would never actually follow through with the half the claims they make or ... there are some men are indeed defending this, even if its not the men posting on this particular thread.


Those were extremes. I just know there's something that sets up bias along gender lines because we hear things that sound more offensive and simple than they are. I don't like how I worded it looking back at the comment. And yes internet chat is full of bravado from everyone. On occasion I'll read one of my own posts and see it which I don't like very much. In an attempt to not do what I say we often do, I've noticed that you specifically acknowledged that most of the men in this thread aren't going overboard. Honestly I think a lot of the threads like this are started by some troll who knows what it's going to cause. This one is obviously not since we know Ele is definitely NOT a troll :smthumbup:


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## *LittleDeer*

Thundarr said:


> Men
> Men imagine some messed up scenario where their spouse flaunts how much she loved doing crazy things with other guys and she nonchalantly doesn't feel like doing it now and really doesn't care what he wants or thinks. Well that's not very realistic and it's certainly not what women are defending.


That's an interesting insight into how some men think. 


> Women
> Women imagine their spouse who otherwise treats them with respect learning the most wild thing they've ever done with anyone even once and becoming obsessed wanting 24/7 crazy action forever and ready to divorce them if they don't comply. Well that's equally not very realistic and not what men are defending.


Really :scratchhead:
Please quote the women who have said they thinks this? 
It's weird how women aren't allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions. 
I know no one who thinks this. I have read some posters on TAM who say that their husbands don't want sex unless they act like a porn star. I have read some posts from men on TAM from men who say they don't understand why their wives aren't more like a porn star. I have also read, my husband disrespects me and keeps pressuring me to do things I don't want to do. 

I just can't remember reading many panicked women stories, with women saying "ZOMG if I not do this thing my respectful husband will divorce me ARGH sob sob"

It's weird because I usually don't do things I don't want to do. My partner doesn't pressure me, in fact we have not had one weird convo where I have felt disrespected by him. If I want to do something and doesn't want to- he says so. If he wants to do something and I don't want I say so. And we respect each other.


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## Thundarr

*LittleDeer* said:


> That's an interesting insight into how some men think.
> 
> Really :scratchhead:
> Please quote the women who have said they thinks this?


I'm glad you're speaking to me again LD. You're correct that none of the women have expressed that extreme but you should realize that none of the men have expressed the other extreme either. You've just endicted the rest of the men on this thread based on my observation and not theirs. These were both extremes of what I believe is the thought patterns that make us see a gender bias on these threads.


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## *LittleDeer*

Thundarr said:


> I'm glad you're speaking to me again LD. You're correct that none of the women have expressed that extreme but you should realize that none of the men have expressed the other extreme either. You've just endicted the rest of the men on this thread based on my observation and not theirs. These were both extremes of what I believe is the thought patterns that make us see a gender bias on these threads.


Why wouldn't I be speaking or writing to you? Have you done something awful?

Well you are a man and I was taking you on your word on how some men might think, I didn't say all or most, you might note I said some. 

And even at the extreme end of how you think a woman may think, I haven't seen it.


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## Maricha75

Lila said:


> I just don't see where there's that much of a difference between "I don't want to" and "I'm not interested ". Both are expressing the same message but one uses more words to get to the point. Neither is evasive IMO. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


When someone says "I don't want to", it is most often (not, I did NOT say *always*) said in a snapping tone of voice, like "how dare you even ask me such a thing". When stating "It's not something I have ever been interested in doing", my experience is that it is a softer reply, and conversation can go on... not pushing for more on that subject, but mood is such that the other party has not shut down. I, obviously, do not see them as the same thing at all. But, like you said, we will have to agree to disagree.


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## Thundarr

*LittleDeer* said:


> I have read some posters on TAM who say that their husbands don't want sex unless they act like a porn star. I have read some posts from men on TAM from men who say they don't understand why their wives aren't more like a porn star. I have also read, my husband disrespects me and keeps pressuring me to do things I don't want to do.


I'm sure there are posts where women think their husbands want them to act like porn stars. Sometimes their husbands are jerks who really want this but other times there's just a communication disconnect. Now some of the men posters who say these things are just flat out trolls. They come here from PAU sites and stir up things and are eventually banned. Of course they come back and stir up the same crap again and seem like two users instead of one.



*LittleDeer* said:


> It's weird because I usually don't do things I don't want to do. My partner doesn't pressure me, in fact we have not had one weird convo where I have felt disrespected by him. If I want to do something and doesn't want to- he says so. If he wants to do something and I don't want I say so. And we respect each other.


It's not all that weird. We've never had one of those conversations either. In real life conversations where we know and trust the other person, we don't default to every word being offensive. Instead we default to knowing that the other person has good intention and it's not offensive by default.


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## EnjoliWoman

Although the number of partners came up with my ex (I wanted him to know my lack of experience but left out a date rape scenario), no one has ever asked me about previous partners. 

He was also the only one who was pushy about my trying things and after I tried and didn't like something, was pushy about doing/trying again. And he was sneaky about some things, too - pushing me to share stuff I wasn't ready to discuss.


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## michzz

"Do those orgies in college count?" would not be a good way to approach answering the questions....


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## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> So it couldn't possibly go
> S1: Why?
> S2: I don't want to.
> S1: Ok... any particular reason? Bad experience? Just not interested?
> S2: Just not something that has ever interested me.
> S1: Ok, that's cool. How about ___ instead?
> S2: That works!
> 
> I just don't understand the whole evasive mentality. Seriously, if someone acted like the quote above, I would think he or she was hiding something, even if that person protested that wasn't the case.


Exactly. So glad some posters are able to think it through. Who would be in a relationship that couldn't even communicate like this. Sometimes a simple no is answer enough. More times than not it isn't going to be without some sort of explanation.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening Lila
"I don't want to" is sometimes a perfectly reasonable answer and sometimes not. It can be a reasonable way to turn down sexual requests that you can't stand, but it can also be a sign of sexual selfishness. 

There is no simple dividing line. I think though that anyone who finds themselves regularly turning down their partner's requests, but who never has their own requests turned down should think about this. Is your partner a perv who wants all sorts of unreasonable things, or are you being selfish and and taking advantage of someone who will do anything to please you. 








Lila said:


> Why can't the reason be as simple as "I don't want to"? :scratchhead:


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## Starstarfish

> It can be a reasonable way to turn down sexual requests that you can't stand, but it can also be a sign of sexual selfishness.


What exactly is "sexual selfishness?" 



> Is your partner a perv who wants all sorts of unreasonable things, or are you being selfish and and taking advantage of someone who will do anything to please you.


Again, should sex be a quid pro quo? Should it be, I do this for you, you do this for me? Or should the goal be a mutually enjoyable experience? 

I won't lie - I'd be really bothered by a relationship like that, and I'm glad I'm not in one. Because it would put me on edge that any time I received a sexual favor (if something can even be called that) what would be expected in return. I wouldn't be able to enjoy the experience without pondering on the forthcoming payback.


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## richardsharpe

Good evenign starstarfish
I absolutely agree that sex should not be a quid prop quo, BUT I think it should be balanced. (randomly picking genders). Say a woman gives her husband BJs whenever he wants, she dresses in lingerie for him, she lets him do anal because he enjoys it (and she doesn't mind, but doesn't enjoy) etc. Nothing she really hates, but lots of things that are for HIM. 

Then if he doesn't give her oral, doesn't worry about her orgasm, just does the things he enjoys when he wants them. He doesn't do other things because he "doesn't want to". 

To me this is a bad situation. She may enjoy pleasing him and not mind doing these things, but still the sexual relationship is unbalanced. He is playing the "only do what you want" card to get out of doing anything for her that doesn't give him pleasure. He is in my terms, sexually selfish.

You can of course reverse the genders and make the same argument. 




Starstarfish said:


> What exactly is "sexual selfishness?"
> 
> 
> 
> Again, should sex be a quid pro quo? Should it be, I do this for you, you do this for me? Or should the goal be a mutually enjoyable experience?
> 
> I won't lie - I'd be really bothered by a relationship like that, and I'm glad I'm not in one. Because it would put me on edge that any time I received a sexual favor (if something can even be called that) what would be expected in return. I wouldn't be able to enjoy the experience without pondering on the forthcoming payback.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening Lila
its tricky. Different things are acceptable to different people. Its difficult to distinguish "don't particularly enjoy" from "absolutely hate". 

Some things are clear - anal is painful for some people - that seems like a clear reason not to do it. 

Others are less clear. Some women really hate giving BJs, some just don't particularly enjoy (and some do enjoy). Same for various positions, spanking etc etc.

I think that if someone has regularly engaged in an activity in the past, the natural assumption is that they don't mind doing it very much. Of course it is possible that they were miserable all of the time it was happening, but just didn't say.






Lila said:


> Richard,
> 
> This thread has taken many turns but at the point that I brought up my question, the discussion was about asking our partners to try a specific sex act for the first time. For example, Q: "Want to try Scat Play?". Response: "No". Q: Why?. Response: "I don't want to". IMO, it's a valid response.
> 
> I'm not trying to be facetious but if a partner is truly trying to avoid having sex, more often than not they've memorized every excuse on the "1001 reasons for rejecting sex" list. But I do agree with you that if you and your partner have enjoyed a particular sex act and it's suddenly removed from the repertoire, then yes, "I don't want to" would be a very strange response from a loving partner.


----------

