# Sexual Aversion



## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I was reading around trying to help my own situation and came across this. Thought it was interesting.

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I think the trickiest thing about sexual aversion is that it is so easy to obfuscate. Sex is the canary in the coal mine regarding the status of most marriages ... pretty much everyone agrees.

Yet, ask someone in a sexless marriage, either male or female, and they will say everything is great other than the sex. But, talking about or attempting to address the subject of sex is itself toxic.

My ex developed a sexual aversion towards me. Wish I knew then what I know now.

It was extraordinarily painful and demoralizing. And yes, it's amazing the degree of rejection and self-questioning, anxiety and resentment that one can tolerate. Very, very, sad all the way around.

It gets said here quite often, and it rings the perfect pitch of truth. If you truly love someone, you make it a priority to please them.

If part of that equation becomes an issue or struggle, you look for the reasons why and address them. Avoiding, minimizing or blame-shifting as ways to address the core issues only ever lead down one path, and it isn't the one with the happy ending ...either physically and metaphorically.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I thought these parts were particuarly interesting:



> Sexual aversion is usually poorly understood by those who have it. These people commonly report that engaging in sex is unpleasant, something they want to avoid. They may find that sexual arousal, and even a climax is also unpleasant. There isn't anything they like about it, and some actually experience a panic attack in the sex act itself. When they're asked to explain why they feel the way they do, few have a clear understanding of their reaction. They often blame themselves.
> 
> Their ignorance comes from a poor understanding of where their feelings come from. People often have the mistaken belief that they can decide to feel any way they want. They can decide to feel depressed or they can decide to feel cheerful. But those who suffer from chronic depression usually know it's not that simple. And when people have a sexual aversion, they cannot simply decide to feel good about sex.


and



> ...sexual aversion is a disaster of major proportions for couples. Sex is a need that should be met in marriage, but if a spouse has an aversion to meeting it, it becomes almost impossible as long as the aversion exists


So I wonder how many people with spouses who they think are "LD" actually have spouses with some degree of aversion instead.

I think this might explain some of the situations like mine where the spouse wanted sex with their AP, but doesn't want it with their spouse.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

What's hard to understand? I hate you I am punishing you it's all your fault.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> What's hard to understand? I hate you I am punishing you it's all your fault.


yea, thats the easy part. All the 'what's and 'why's that go with it. Thats a bit more tricky.

I think Deejos Canary in a Coal Mine analogy is a very good one.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> What's hard to understand? I hate you I am punishing you it's all your fault.


...few have a clear understanding of their reaction. They often blame themselves.

Their ignorance comes from a poor understanding of where their feelings come from.

...when people have a sexual aversion, they cannot simply decide to feel good about sex.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

TheGoodFight said:


> ...few have a clear understanding of their reaction. They often blame themselves.
> 
> Their ignorance comes from a poor understanding of where their feelings come from.
> 
> ...when people have a sexual aversion, they cannot simply decide to feel good about sex.


Which is of little comfort when you are the target of the aversion.

There is a tremendous amount of talk about partners shutting down when it comes to sex ... only for the partner frozen out to later learn that their sexually averse partner is gleefully, quite vocally, and without inhibition knocking boots with someone to whom there is no such aversion.

Tough stuff, and really unfortunate that it EVER gets to that level.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

No doubt it is of little comfort, but it does help to be able to put a cause on it. Where there is a cause there can be a solution, which is what the linked article is about.

I'd also note that someone with an adversion to sex has done it to themselves in part, but their partner probably has some blame as well.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

still tortured GF?

I do want you to consider that you are a "fixer", I'm the same way and where it can get you into trouble is where you end up doing all of the diagnosis, research, and working on the solution. Often since we cannot change others we look to change ourselves. 

Food for thought


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm just exploring all of the options. And yes I am a fixer, but what to do? Here I know where the water is, so why not lead the horse over there and see if it will take a drink?

I do struggle with this though because she could have found this information herself if she was really interested in finding it. Very frustrating.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

okay so you put the book in her hands and then what if she doesnt change or take steps to correct the problem?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> okay so you put the book in her hands and then what if she doesnt change or take steps to correct the problem?


Then I'll bring it up in counseling and see if the therapist will say it's a good idea to read the book. It always works better if the idea doesn't come from me.

If that doesn't work, I'll wait and see if the counseling helps. (She is seeing a new one now.) If that doesn't help and nothing changes otherwise, I guess I'll give up. 

What else can I do?


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Yes I have found out that a sexual aversion gf was gleefully knocking boots with others after the break up. I add that other sexual acts that she would never have with me were quite happily done with others too.

My question - Can a HD person become sexually averse?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> What else can I do?



I dont know anymore, but you just seem to be spinning your wheels for a while now, I just wonder how much longer you will last


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I dont know anymore, but you just seem to be spinning your wheels for a while now, I just wonder how much longer you will last


I don't know either, but she did do one of the exercises in the article today and journaled about it. We talked about it this evening. She did get a job at a local daycare and is using the money to see a therapist.

Meanwhile, I am doing my best to be a good husband and working on myself as best I can. I'm on my 5th week of weight training. Loving that by the way. I actually have chest muscles now! lol.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> My question - Can a HD person become sexually averse?


Well, Yes, if you ask me.
I had been HD all my adult life. 
Now... I'm looking for ways to avoid it.

Me personally, it is simply the pitfall of "closing off" to it, turning it off, putting it out of my mind, however you want to word it.

It's awkward, seems weird, not enjoyable, all kinds of things come to mind. I "feel" like posting a thread asking for suggestions on how to say no. I'm sure there are posters on here that have heard all the excuses. I'd like to know which ones work. Because I want to use them. Aversion ? Heck yeah.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TGF, 
One of your posts surprised me. It was dday anniversary and you had called and she was cooking you a stake dinner. 

And I was thinking, well that's nice except if it had been me as the wandering spouse I would have simply said I made steak and the rest of the night is ALL ABOUT YOU. I will do anything you want.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> TGF,
> One of your posts surprised me. It was dday anniversary and you had called and she was cooking you a stake dinner.
> 
> And I was thinking, well that's nice except if it had been me as the wandering spouse I would have simply said I made steak and the rest of the night is ALL ABOUT YOU. I will do anything you want.


I guess I was just glad she remembered the date.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> yea, thats the easy part. All the 'what's and 'why's that go with it. Thats a bit more tricky.
> 
> I think Deejos Canary in a Coal Mine analogy is a very good one.



I'm not convinced the why is all that important.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> ...few have a clear understanding of their reaction. They often blame themselves.
> 
> Their ignorance comes from a poor understanding of where their feelings come from.
> 
> ...when people have a sexual aversion, they cannot simply decide to feel good about sex.



No. I seriously doubt that. Most people never blame themselves, at least not for anything they should blame themselves for. Most people if they blame themselves at all are blaming themself for abstract almost existential reasons like "Why did I survive that house fire?" which isn't blame at all, it's guilt. And men and women who wield sex as a weapon - - the last thing they feel is guilt.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> Well, Yes, if you ask me.
> I had been HD all my adult life.
> Now... I'm looking for ways to avoid it.
> 
> ...


Is this a point on the downward spiral in the demise of a marriage? Is it cliche? Finally the HD spouse just says F it I'm not doing it, not caring about it and whatever? I'm there.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I think the trickiest thing about sexual aversion is that it is so easy to obfuscate. Sex is the canary in the coal mine regarding the status of most marriages ... pretty much everyone agrees.
> 
> Yet, ask someone in a sexless marriage, either male or female, and they will say everything is great other than the sex. But, talking about or attempting to address the subject of sex is itself toxic.
> 
> ...


I could have written this. If only I had the info available now, back then...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> Is this a point on the downward spiral in the demise of a marriage? Is it cliche? Finally the HD spouse just says F it I'm not doing it, not caring about it and whatever? I'm there.


Partly.
I think having conversations about a lack of sex can kill something. 

Mostly it's just an aversion to someone who doesn't want to let you in. After awhile you find your own self confidence and happiness. Gee.. I didn't die after all without sex! Gee.. I am happy after all! I don't want to be someone's source of self esteem by having sex. Neither do I want to be in that position either. I don't want to barter.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> Is this a point on the downward spiral in the demise of a marriage? Is it cliche? Finally the HD spouse just says F it I'm not doing it, not caring about it and whatever? I'm there.


I think that it becomes an excuse for the HD person to stop meeting the needs of their partner. The thinking is, "why should I do x for you when you won't even have sex with me?" It becomes a "F you" attitude, and now you have both people with not much motivation to meets the others needs. This is the downward spiral.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> No. I seriously doubt that. Most people never blame themselves, at least not for anything they should blame themselves for. Most people if they blame themselves at all are blaming themself for abstract almost existential reasons like "Why did I survive that house fire?" which isn't blame at all, it's guilt. And men and women who wield sex as a weapon - - the last thing they feel is guilt.


I think a lot of women in particular think that there must be something wrong with them. Many seem to assume it is some kind of hormone problem. How often is the initial advice around here to check out their hormone levels with their doctor?

Of course in my experience they are also not very motivated to do anything about it either.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

TheGoodFight said:


> I think that it becomes an excuse for the HD person to stop meeting the needs of their partner. The thinking is, "why should I do x for you when you won't even have sex with me?" It becomes a "F you" attitude, and now you have both people with not much motivation to meets the others needs. This is the downward spiral.


I'm sure that's true for some people. For me it just felt like she didn't give two craps about my needs sexually. As I said in my other posts she felt like she did not have a problem and that I was the one with the problem. As in " you want more sex, I don't, deal with it" However I never felt like "well you don't give me sex so I won't do ....". It was more like a lost kind of feeling and a feeling of being unloved which was among other things rather demotivating, depressing and confusing. 

I feel I am at a sexually averse place at the moment. I have truly lost interest in sex with her. Bizzare for me. Perhaps I am protecting myself from the rejection. My question really was based on this. Is the sexually averse place ( of the HD ) partner a signpost on the way toward a marriage breakdown. Have other HD persons experienced this totally apathy toward sex with their spouse?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> I'm sure that's true for some people. For me it just felt like she didn't give two craps about my needs sexually. As I said in my other posts she felt like she did not have a problem and that I was the one with the problem. As in " you want more sex, I don't, deal with it" However I never felt like "well you don't give me sex so I won't do ....". It was more like a lost kind of feeling and a feeling of being unloved which was among other things rather demotivating, depressing and confusing.
> 
> I feel I am at a sexually averse place at the moment. I have truly lost interest in sex with her. Bizzare for me. Perhaps I am protecting myself from the rejection. My question really was based on this. Is the sexually averse place ( of the HD ) partner a signpost on the way toward a marriage breakdown. Have other HD persons experienced this totally apathy toward sex with their spouse?


I see what you are saying. I've felt that way too because I knew what kind of sex was coming. The kind where it's like "Hurry up and get it over with so I don't have to deal with you for another week". 

That kind of attitude from a partner is just as bad as being flat out rejected IMO. It does make you averse to even wanting to have sex at all.

So yes, I'd say it WAS "a signpost on the way toward a marriage breakdown" if nothing changes or some kind of understanding can't be reached.

I guess I was saying your "feeling of being unloved which was among other things rather demotivating, depressing and confusing" probably doesn't make you very enthusiastic to meet your spouses needs either which will even further damage things. That's what the downward spiral comment made me think of.


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## drmmommy (Apr 16, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Yes I have found out that a sexual aversion gf was gleefully knocking boots with others after the break up. I add that other sexual acts that she would never have with me were quite happily done with others too.
> 
> My question - Can a HD person become sexually averse?


Yes. I'm hd but the thought of having sex with my hubby is unappealing. I just can make myself do it with him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TGF, 
I think you have identified one of the single biggest factors in the 'non lust', aspect of sex. Pacing. 

The intense tear clothes off and fvck passion is one thing. If it isn't that situation then pacing is a huge deal. And when there is a subtle lack of interest vibe combined with an attempt to speed things up, that feels bad. 

As for deejov's comment that talking makes it worse: the wrong kind of talking makes anything worse. Sex is no different. Talk filled with anger that is badly aligned with actual behavior is a type of aggressive deceit. I agree that is bad on any topic. 

There's a reason one of our favorite movies is 'a few good men'.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> I'm sure that's true for some people. For me it just felt like she didn't give two craps about my needs sexually. As I said in my other posts she felt like she did not have a problem and that I was the one with the problem. As in " you want more sex, I don't, deal with it" However I never felt like "well you don't give me sex so I won't do ....". It was more like a lost kind of feeling and a feeling of being unloved which was among other things rather demotivating, depressing and confusing.
> 
> I feel I am at a sexually averse place at the moment. I have truly lost interest in sex with her. Bizzare for me. Perhaps I am protecting myself from the rejection. My question really was based on this. Is the sexually averse place ( of the HD ) partner a signpost on the way toward a marriage breakdown. Have other HD persons experienced this totally apathy toward sex with their spouse?


Some people are transactional, and some people feel resentment and become passive aggressive (no sex because you won't do a, b, c)

Some people are not. Some realise it's a unwillingness to share intimacy when it's not returned. Some take it a lot more personally. 

And yeah, it's probably PA in itself. Protection mode. And a reliasation that you cannot make another person be vulnerable with you. 

It's too uncomfortable to put your heart out there everytime you have sex. Easier to just turn it all off. Although when I did that... I discovered learning about me had great rewards. It's lost it's lustre now.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Is it that we lose trust in our spouse? I for one cannot trust her with my feelings any more. She has attempted to shame/degrade/ignore my needs many times and now I am sexually averse toward her. She has made very little attempt if none at all to up her sexuality/frequency to honour my needs. 

I think this is a sign post. My only question is what happens next?
If others have been where I am I'd be grateful for their input.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> What's hard to understand? I hate you I am punishing you it's all your fault.


Not in my case. I was the so-called LD. I did not have the thought in mind that I was punishing or trying to punish anyone. 

I felt unwanted and undesirable. My ex was working on her new business. She devoted much time to it; as was expected. The intimacy in our relationship suffered. 

She wanted to come home and just jump in the sack. I could not do that because of the way I felt about myself. This caused me to have problems with arousal. Also, I was taking medications which caused issues with arousal. I told her this and she did not want to consider it. It was just me. I did not love her enough. Bull----!

I needed her to show me she wanted me for more than just sex. She could not or would not do that. It was devastating for me. I felt worse and worse. Our relationship spiraled down. She talked about it with others. They told her what they thought. 

They are not me. Talk to me. Work on the problems with me. I am your husband. 

The success of her business, which caused additional emotional suffering in our marriage, made her more attractive to other men. She was confident. She had more money. These qualities are highly attractive to anyone. Our marriage paid the price. 

It is only natural for me to feel less attractive when I was brought up in a time in which men were supposed to be responsible for providing. I was not capable of doing this. I wanted to, I did not know how. Circumstances in life, some of my own doing, some not, placed me in this position. She knew this before we got married. She knew this before we were committed to a long-term relationship.

These were _my_ issues and comments from men who wanted me out of the way so they could have a chance with my wife did not help. 

Her family thought she was too good for me and told her. Over months and probably years, she had to battle her inner thoughts. No wonder she finally decided to cheat. Who could stand such an onslaught? 

I did not have the guts to do something like the 180. I knew nothing of the 180. I told myself lies to believe her, even though her actions were telling me to take a closer look. 

I was in a mindset that only hurt me. Since I wasn't giving her the sex she craved, and other men with more attractive lives were coming on to her, she fell into the same trap so many others have. 

I encouraged her to start her own business. I knew she could do it. I also told her that our marriage would probably suffer and we would have to be very careful about that if we truly loved each other. I guess she forgot I said that or she forgot she loved me?

Doesn't this show true love? It cannot be selfishness. Knowing fully what could happen and not doing things to sabotage the business? 

What a fool I was. After the separation, I felt differently. I felt betrayed. I felt abandoned. 

I thought love conquered all. It does not. Greed and selfishness are first in our minds. Love takes a back seat. We can always find someone to make us feel loved. We can always find a sympathetic ear, mostly when we are on top of the world and others seem insignificant.

Communication and commitment are hard to find. Live for your own happiness and desires. Make sacrifices only to achieve what you want. They will be more satisfying. 

If you meet someone along the way, decide to love. Do the things which show love in your actions. The feelings may not be there, but no one will know, if your actions are consistent. 

Then, when you decide to leave and pursue the things you truly wanted, you can feel justified. Isn't that what we truly want? 

It's really too bad I feel this way. Life is tough enough.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

I Think many, not all, women out there do not truly understand their husbands NEED for sex. When i was growing up i was given the message that sex is dirty and that any guy who wants to have sex with you is trying to use you. Then one day marriage happens....and you are (i guess?) supposed to forget the messages you grew up with and do a 180. I have made the choice to question the messages that i grew up with and have evaluated which messages truly fit in my life now. Thankfully the sex thing was one of them.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

missymrs80 said:


> I Think many, not all, women out there do not truly understand their husbands NEED for sex. *When i was growing up i was given the message that sex is dirty and that any guy who wants to have sex with you is trying to use you. Then one day marriage happens....and you are (i guess?) supposed to forget the messages you grew up with and do a 180.* I have made the choice to question the messages that i grew up with and have evaluated which messages truly fit in my life now. Thankfully the sex thing was one of them.


I believe that this was a factor with my wife's aversion to sex.

She never learned to do what you did.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

Deejo said:


> It gets said here quite often, and it rings the perfect pitch of truth. If you truly love someone, you make it a priority to please them.
> 
> If part of that equation becomes an issue or struggle, you look for the reasons why and address them.


Easier said than done, especially when the sexual/desire difficulties are the result of various psychological problems the spouse may be suffering from. These kinds of sexual difficulties in a marriage are almost impossible to fix even if the couple opts for therapy. Sex therapy has a terrible track record in fixing these kinds of problems that often have their roots in childhood and are part of the basic makeup of the person.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally disagree. They go have a hot affair which reinforces their belief that they just don't desire you. 

And that is all part of a package where you are not important to them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Really. And yet, when there is divorce and a new partner suddenly all those insurmountable issues disappear. 

Hard wired hunting behavior. She hunts, she mates and she over powers. Once she has fully over powered you, her desire is gone and you are sol


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> Is it that we lose trust in our spouse? I for one cannot trust her with my feelings any more. She has attempted to shame/degrade/ignore my needs many times and now I am sexually averse toward her. She has made very little attempt if none at all to up her sexuality/frequency to honour my needs.
> 
> I think this is a sign post. My only question is what happens next?
> If others have been where I am I'd be grateful for their input.


I spoke up and said that without sex it wasn't a relationship, really. I wish I had not done that. Months later... there is this sense that sex is out of duty, it's still lurking under the surface. 
Like you have to do it. And it made me uncomfortable. Now, I don't want it. 

The marriage video course we did talked about this a lot.
The concept of falling back in love, where you build up enough "credits" to WANT to do anything for your spouse, think about them all the time, want to be with them.

I think there are stages to this.
Getting over resentment, forgiving past actions.
Re-booting how you treat each other.
"Going through the motions" until it either becomes romantic love, or you call it quits.

I think the going through the motions stage has a turning point, just like when you are dating and your dating partner does something that makes your heart melt, or you look at them and your stomach flutters. 

And I also believe if you are going through the motions and not feeling the lust of love, then you maybe haven't gotten over all the resentment -- and that's maybe because they haven't done some work somewhere to help things improve.

Some time away for work made me miss him, a lot. I still love him. But he hasn't done a few things (improving himself) that I'm looking for. That would make me look at him like a man that I desire. I know he CAN do it. He's trying.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejov, 
I am so glad you are posting here. 

I think it is good you said what you did to him about it not really being a relationship without sex. 

Semi-not-funny totally true story. 

About 6 months into our recently ended 'no intercourse', zone we had bad sex one night. Bad because I literally did nothing for her. Nada. I just let her do everything. When 'me, myself and I' finished she gave me this vibe. It was the 'you made no effort at all to make this a good experience for me' vibe. It was a bit of a 'did you really just do that' type thing. 
She was right. And I didn't let it happen again. Because the one thing that helps make all this stuff ok is when you know your partner is doing everything they can to please you. And that they WANT to please you.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

CanadianGuy said:


> My question - Can a HD person become sexually averse?


Absolutely. There are a number of reasons why an HD spouse doesn't want sex with the person they are married to but would jump at the chance to have it with someone else. In some cases that is the only kind of sex they can comfortably enjoy as sex in any kind of serious relationship ceases to be exciting enough to spark their desire. It often happens that when these people do try to have sex with a spouse they suffer from desire related sexual dysfunctions, especially men.

The trouble is these people also want to be part of a family and have children so what happens is they give up sex in order to have that and spend the rest of their lives coping the best they can in a sexless marriage. They are sex adverse, but only with their wives.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Mr B said:


> Absolutely. There are a number of reasons why an HD spouse doesn't want sex with the person they are married to but would jump at the chance to have it with someone else. In some cases that is the only kind of sex they can comfortably enjoy as sex in any kind of serious relationship ceases to be exciting enough to spark their desire. It often happens that when these people do try to have sex with a spouse they suffer from desire related sexual dysfunctions, especially men.
> 
> The trouble is these people also want to be part of a family and have children so what happens is they give up sex in order to have that and spend the rest of their lives coping the best they can in a sexless marriage. They are sex adverse, but only with their wives.


What do you mean by " desire related sexual dysfunctions"?

You kinda described how I feel lately. Except for the part about being hot and bothered by someone else.That's not happening either.

But I was thinking about all of this today, and I kinda realised I can "pin" some of this. Or maybe I'm just trying to, and shouldn't.

It's things like when my H is whiny, or lazy. It's a turn off. For days. That is stuck in my head.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I think this can be solved... I may end up dissapointed and i'll be the first to tell you all that you were right.

But... 

I do think there is at least 90% chance my wife and I turn this around.... takes time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
I am not going to claim 2 data points make a statistically meaningful sample. That said, when contrasting your approach and results with mine:
- 5 days of 'no sex', followed by sexual saturation vs. 
- 3 years and counting with the firm stand that you absolutely will not tolerate this - forever. Threat/submission / threat / submission. Totally destructive to self respect and spouse respect. 

The difference in approach can be summed up in one sentence: I was very clearly not going to tolerate having celibacy forced upon me by the person who had vowed to 'love' me. 

I was afraid, and sad and hurt. And confused. Yes, I was confused by her behavior. It seemed crazy. I knew one thing for certain though, trying to understand her so I could FIX her (I think you used the phrase re engineer recently)was going to make ME crazy. 

As for the risk of a walk away, my view was - if we are done shoot me now and make it quick. Far prefer that, to being very slowly tortured to death.


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