# Outsourcing



## rm3507 (Dec 23, 2016)

I have a few questions for those who have:

How did you feel after? 
Do you continue? 
What was your deciding factor and how long did it take you to reach this decision? 
How and where did you do it? 
Would you do it again? 
And how did it feel to finally be desired?

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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Is this a cheating question?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Or an agreed upon "open marriage" deal?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just like outsourcing IT or accounting, you get instant gratification and lower "costs" but long term it's not viable unless you get rockstar workers at pittance wages.


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## rm3507 (Dec 23, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> Is this a cheating question?


I guess you could call it that

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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

rm3507 said:


> I have a few questions for those who have:
> 
> How did you feel after?
> Do you continue?
> ...



How does the saying go... If you really want a job done right, you have to do it yourself!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

rm3507 said:


> I have a few questions for those who have:
> 
> How did you feel after?
> Do you continue?
> ...


The exact same as it would if one left the marriage/relationship, only nobody gets hurt.

Duh.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you want sex with someone other than your wife, divorce her first. There is no excuse for cheating.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

rm3507 said:


> I have a few questions for those who have:
> 
> How did you feel after?
> Do you continue?
> ...


Allow me to answer for my friend, a beautiful woman. She's been engaged a few years, living together for the same and with this guy over a decade. When he went out of town when they were newly engaged (after having broken up - I'm not getting any younger deal), she found excessive charges on a credit card indicating companionship. He's been married a couple times? had a love child, etc. so not the most trustworthy but she sees him as her soul mate.

At some point, she decided she'd exchange suffering for Life is Short fun. And she feels great. She travels with her job and gets attention. She has at least one relationship going which is a deep connection but no strings attached. It seems to be a win win situation. She has no guilt. No one but close girlfriends would know. She tells me lots of details and I think, wow, every guy's dream.

I don't know that I could do that. I signed up on AM merely checking on my DH and it grossed me out how many guys were feeding me lines when I had a blurred out picture and no details in my profile. For me, and I would suspect most women, there's got to be more than just being a warm body. There is no feeling desired in that, at least for me. I would entertain the idea of outsourcing. It does seem a very tricky thing to do. It'd have to be *special*... and that's hard to find even when you're on the up and up.


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

I once had a humorous conversation with a former GF (we both in IT) where we imagined celebrity couples would not be bothered to do all that tedious foreplay so would outsource it to foreplay specialists. Once fully aroused they would engage and once spent, bring in the specialists again to do that post-coital kissing and cuddling.


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## Volunteer86 (Aug 2, 2017)

I think I am a bit confused on this topic. Are you talking about an open relationship or cheating?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

@Volunteer86 - he said he's talking about cheating.

OP, cheating is always lacking in moral integrity, but if a spouse isn't willing to have sex, and there isn't a _good _reason for it, they're already breaking vows; they can't really claim the high ground ethically. Better to leave, but of course that's not always easy.

Why not negotiate an open relationship, and outsource to your heart's content?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Outsourcing LOL. What a thing to call it.


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> Outsourcing LOL. What a thing to call it.


Outsourcing: a euphemism for sacking your loyal staff and having their job done in a third world country that pays their staff peanuts.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

twoofus said:


> I once had a humorous conversation with a former GF (we both in IT) where we imagined celebrity couples would not be bothered to do all that tedious foreplay so would outsource it to foreplay specialists. Once fully aroused they would engage and once spent, bring in the specialists again to do that post-coital kissing and cuddling.


*Lazy bastards!*


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Admittedly it does sound viable on the surface.

The HD partner gets to have their fun and excitement and to at least temporarily feel somewhat alive and desired again. And the LD partner gets to not have to be bothered with it all while the other aspects of the relationship get to continue.

At first glance it does appear to be win win.

But that isn't really how it works in practice.

In practice the outsourcing partner's affections and esteem will envariably shift to their play partner and they will lose respect and esteem for their BS. In a short period of time they will start to view their BS as an obstacle and hinderence to their happiness.

They will then start to treat their BS with disrespect and contempt furthering the chasm between them.

If the outsourcing partner remains with their spouse, it is basically to "use" them for something and for them to fulfill a specific purpose like for money or for child are or help with the household chores. 

The Play Partner is a factor too. A female play partner (PP) will resist being a side piece and will almost always either want a real relationship or will opt out of the arangment once the initial thrill dies down.

A male PP will gladly be a side piece and will gladly get with a married woman with no other strings, but the outsourcing woman will eventually want him to listen to her problems and fix her car and kill any spiders in her house or watch the kids etc etc and the male PP won't want anything to do with that and she will eventually figure out that she is the one being used for sex. 

Outsourcing may work if there is a specific deadline involved such as the last kid heading off to college in a year. In that instance, the HD partner can live with it and be good for a specific period of time and the LD partner may be glad to have the HD partner of their back for awhile.

But eventually it will always break down after a fairly short period of time.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Outside Consultants*

Outsourcing intimacy doesn't bode well for the marital corporation. However, it can work for housecleaning, yard services, and the like. Job sharing arrangements _may_ be suitable when one of the employees does not want to assume the position full-time (this is especially effective for missionary positions).

When it comes to intimacy, having the executive board (the spouses) _unanimously_ vote to bring in outside consultants on a limited basis can do wonders for improving the "bottom" line. This should only occur on a limited basis, with periodic reviews to ensure goals are being met. The executive board needs to periodically evaluate the need for further consulting needs based on cost/benefit analysis.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

*Re: Outside Consultants*



Married but Happy said:


> Outsourcing intimacy doesn't bode well for the marital corporation.



Neither does a shut down of the production line. 



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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

rm3507 said:


> I have a few questions for those who have:
> 
> How did you feel after?
> Do you continue?
> ...


So you are asking people here how to go about cheating? On a pro marriage website hmmmm? Perhaps you would be better off going onto Reddit or some other such forum, no? :surprise:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

twoofus said:


> Outsourcing: a euphemism for sacking your loyal staff and having their job done in a third world country that pays their staff peanuts.


Outsourcing sex works about as well as outsourcing IT - initially an unprecedented success, only to crash and burn long term.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@rm3507

Why don't you tell us more about your situation and provide some background information and people here will be able to offer more pertinent insight.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Outsourcing LOL. What a thing to call it.


Yeah,

It is "in" sourcing, to be precise. 

Sourcing an "inside snifter", outside of the home makes it work, I guess.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

*oldshirt
In practice the outsourcing partner's affections and esteem will invariably shift to their play partner and they will lose respect and esteem for their BS. In a short period of time they will start to view their BS as an obstacle and hindrance to their happiness.*

Yes, that happens but there is a forum that I read where some outsourcing people do what you say and there are some people that don't want to ever leave their SO, their best friend, and all of the other "in love feelings. When it come to sex with the spouse, some of these "cheaters" say that part of the relationship is so bad they never want to go there again with the spouse.

A couple of people on the "Affair Forum" say they would never leave their spouse. some have been "outsourcing for 5, 10, 15 years with the same affair partner.

Several outsourcing posters said they know they couldn't live with the affair partner but while they are with the affair partner, life seems so grand.

The topic of loving two different people comes up from time to time. Most of the time the people having the affair say each person they want to be with is each a different situation and say loving two different people seems normal to them. I suspect their internal level of jealousy is low. I know outsourcing generally doesn't work for a large majority of people.

There are a few people outsourcing sex and emotional connections because one spouse closed up shop at home.

Speaking about one spouse closing up shop, the denied person eventually has very low self-esteem due to feeling left out and rejected after many years. They sometimes think they are not valuable and no one would want to be with them. Some try flirting and have some success with attracting opposite sex friends.

One things leads to another and infatuation happens. The denied person temporarily feels better and the success in the affair realm, leads to the new affair being the exit affair. In a way the outsourcing is like having training wheels on a bike. The new affair seemed to work so why not divorce. They begin to think, "hay, I am not that person that no one wants to be with."

There are people in affairs that just like new or extra partners and have it good at home. OTH, some people that gravitate towards affairs have a poor emotional, sexual, and lack most of the other good things that go along with decent marriage or LTRs

There is a group of people having affairs just to tolerate staying married and are waiting until the kids are on their own to divorce.

Outsourcing also happens when one partner can't have sex, emotional connection, etc, due to severe medical conditions.

Sometimes I wonder if it is realistic to promise being faithful in some cases where sickness and health is a severe problem that last many years and leaves one partner to live a life without a major glue / benefit-s that makes a couple want to stay together. 

Giving and not getting is OK for some length of time but I don't see giving without getting something valuable in return as a way most people can live year after year.

The there art the people that say closing up shop is being a cheater. I agree but how one change the person that closed up shop? Finances, kids, religious beliefs makes this type of situation difficult. When is neglect a divorsable event? It is easy with abuse, and the like. Neglect, even unintentional can be a very difficult call.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Another person's opinion about the lack of _____________ in a long term relationship.

* ................Once one person decided to "close up shop" they voided the marriage contract...........

To be sure, it is "cleaner" to divorce and move on. But sometime circumstances do not permit that. Many times finances can be difficult or children complicate the situation because people do not want to "break up" the family. Sometimes there are health issues.

I think making the decision to seek having your needs met outside of your current address aka your pseudo marriage, is a very personal one. I believe people who have decided to do so while being married on paper give it great thought. For most of us, it's not simple sex but companionship, attention, kindness, and passion for life that has been long gone from the situation we are in - or never existed.*


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Then negotiate an open marriage with your spouse or give them a chance to leave with all the information. If the marriage is nothing but paper then there is no reason to lie and hide the affair.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

It is just pure selfishness and weakness IMHO. Get a divorce or an open marriage, there is NO valid reason not to.

Far out if I had of "outsourced" then even as a woman that doesn't attach emotion to sex I could have very easily become emotionally attached the the guy. 

It is unbelievable that people can try so hard to justify this.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

LOL. The OP has shown a clear aversion to actually making the *effort *to type out a coherent sentence or at the very least, give us a cohesive summary of what the hell he's talking about instead of this cryptic nonsense.

So, due to his extreme laziness and completely apathetic behavior, I'm going to assume he's considering 'outsourcing' to bring talent home for his WIFE, since he's obviously a lazy slacker and needs the backup.

I say go for it, OP.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I honestly do not wish to cheat on my wife. At this point, I could not go through with it. But who's to say that in 5 years time that I won't feel differently? That's what worries me. Ever since our youngest was born (4 years ago) her libido has been virtually non-existant. She still allows me to have sex with her 1-2 times a week, even though she really doesn't seem to be enjoying herself all that much. We've argued and argued about this for about 2 years now... it never changes. I try to be nice about it, letting her know how her lack of sexual desire makes me feel. She gets upset and says that just puts MORE pressure on her, making it all that much harder to become aroused. I've explored every option; she's having an affair. She doesn't find me attractive or love me anymore. Yada yada yada, none of these things are true. She has been to the doctor and the OBGYN about this problem, and their advice was simply; that's very common for mothers of young children, your sex drive will return. She claims she wants it to return. 

Sometimes the thought of outsourcing does sound tempting. To feel passion again from a woman. To feel somebody reciprocate sexual energy, rather than feeling like you're making love to a blowup doll. To give a woman an orgasm again. To have oral sex again, both giving and receiving. To spontaneously have sex because we're both horny, rather than because it's been a certain number of days, and it's on the schedule. Right now, I just want all this with my wife. But as I'm starting to see that this may not be possible, my mind has been entertaining the idea of it not necessarily being my wife that I experience these feelings with. I'm only 35, and am not ready to accept the fact that I'll never have good sex again. The thought of cheating is horrifying and frightening to me, and I'm nowhere near that point. I don't really even know any other women besides my wife that well. But I understand why someone in my position might be inclined to do those things. I love my wife, I love our family, I love the life we've built together... that's why most men don't want to leave their wife, even if they "outsourcing". I am just afraid for what the future holds... I'm not going to accept this forever. Sometimes, when I'm having sex with my wife and she's clearly not into it at all, I almost feel like a rapist or something. It's an awful feeling. I've stopped initiating sex, because it's so unenjoyable for me now. But she brings it up every so often, and I don't want to start a fight, so I do it. Neither of us are really enjoying ourselves. Obviously I orgasm, but that doesn't mean my needs are getting fulfilled... which she doesn't seem to get.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If men want passion from their "outsourcing partner" they are going to have to put in emotional effort for them. 

You don't get passion and connection from a hooker. 

Because the marriage at home is so lacking, all your new relationship energy goes to the new partner. They are meeting your most important emotional needs, getting your time and it's nearly impossible to not develop strong feelings at that point. 

Anything that involves secrets will blow up and be unhealthy. 
Your best bet at making it work is having an open, poly relationship where you *both* can have outside bfs/gfs to meet your needs and work on all other aspects of your marriage to make them as solid as possible. 
Still you have to work at staying within your boundaries, not giving all your new attention to the other partner AND realizing that your wife may get a side bf too. That opens up a whole new can of worms....


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Outside Consultants*



WorkingOnMe said:


> Neither does a shut down of the production line.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


May as well file for Chapter 11 then, because you haven't been trading long and you're well past the recovery time.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: Outside Consultants*



Satya said:


> May as well file for Chapter 11 then, because you haven't been trading long and you're well past the recovery time.


Or resign, and find an employer with better benefits.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL. The OP has shown a clear aversion to actually making the *effort *to type out a coherent sentence or at the very least, give us a cohesive summary of what the hell he's talking about instead of this cryptic nonsense.
> 
> So, due to his extreme laziness and completely apathetic behavior, I'm going to assume he's considering 'outsourcing' to bring talent home for his WIFE, since he's obviously a lazy slacker and needs the backup.
> 
> I say go for it, OP.


You made me laugh before coffee! I'm sending you a non-creepy virtual hug. I so very rarely laugh before coffee.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

What podiumboy posted is in line with what I feel.


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

Wish I knew what all the abbreviations stood for. 
BS? LS? Etc


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> I honestly do not wish to cheat on my wife. At this point, I could not go through with it. But who's to say that in 5 years time that I won't feel differently? That's what worries me. Ever since our youngest was born (4 years ago) her libido has been virtually non-existant. She still allows me to have sex with her 1-2 times a week, even though she really doesn't seem to be enjoying herself all that much. We've argued and argued about this for about 2 years now... it never changes. I try to be nice about it, letting her know how her lack of sexual desire makes me feel. She gets upset and says that just puts MORE pressure on her, making it all that much harder to become aroused. I've explored every option; she's having an affair. She doesn't find me attractive or love me anymore. Yada yada yada, none of these things are true. She has been to the doctor and the OBGYN about this problem, and their advice was simply; that's very common for mothers of young children, your sex drive will return. She claims she wants it to return.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes the thought of outsourcing does sound tempting. To feel passion again from a woman. To feel somebody reciprocate sexual energy, rather than feeling like you're making love to a blowup doll. To give a woman an orgasm again. To have oral sex again, both giving and receiving. To spontaneously have sex because we're both horny, rather than because it's been a certain number of days, and it's on the schedule. Right now, I just want all this with my wife. But as I'm starting to see that this may not be possible, my mind has been entertaining the idea of it not necessarily being my wife that I experience these feelings with. I'm only 35, and am not ready to accept the fact that I'll never have good sex again. The thought of cheating is horrifying and frightening to me, and I'm nowhere near that point. I don't really even know any other women besides my wife that well. But I understand why someone in my position might be inclined to do those things. I love my wife, I love our family, I love the life we've built together... that's why most men don't want to leave their wife, even if they "outsourcing". I am just afraid for what the future holds... I'm not going to accept this forever. Sometimes, when I'm having sex with my wife and she's clearly not into it at all, I almost feel like a rapist or something. It's an awful feeling. I've stopped initiating sex, because it's so unenjoyable for me now. But she brings it up every so often, and I don't want to start a fight, so I do it. Neither of us are really enjoying ourselves. Obviously I orgasm, but that doesn't mean my needs are getting fulfilled... which she doesn't seem to get.




My life story with one exception:

Actually two exceptions.
Try only getting it once or twice a year with your wife. I refuse to initiate foreplay by begging. 
Last week my wife found out I was taking "care of the wash by hand" and she went ballistic. 
I love my family and family life and I cried when she asked for a separation. Now a week later, maybe we should. Sick of only getting sex because it's my birthday or the rare times when she wants it which is about as often as witnessing a lunar eclipse. 


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

:slap:What was she upset about specifically?


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## spawn2031 (Jul 19, 2017)

seabeeken123 said:


> My life story with one exception:
> 
> Actually two exceptions.
> Try only getting it once or twice a year with your wife. I refuse to initiate foreplay by begging.
> ...


She gives it 2 you that little and expects you to NOT masturbate? That's pretty naive of her.


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

anonmd said:


> :slap:What was she upset about specifically?




Because I was essentially cheating on her by having sex by myself 


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

spawn2031 said:


> She gives it 2 you that little and expects you to NOT masturbate? That's pretty naive of her.




I couldn't agree more. In all honesty, I'm almost enjoying it more alone than with her. 
No spending hours jumping through hoops to romance her and then still getting turned down or unexpected issue arising. No worries whether I'm going to say or do something wrong. At least by myself I'm a sure thing. Lol


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

So what happens when you talk to her about like maybe doing it more than twice a year outside of the in the moment attempts?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

seabeeken123 said:


> Because I was essentially cheating on her by having sex by myself
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




And you cried over it? Man, this was a huge power play for her. My wife tried that move once. I laughed and told her she was a failure as a wife. Then I started leaving lube on the bathroom counter every morning whether I used it or not. Now a few years later she's after me for sex several times a week. I think you should call her bluff. 


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

growing_weary said:


> So what happens when you talk to her about like maybe doing it more than twice a year outside of the in the moment attempts?




She says she wants it more but with strings attached. Almost like contractual terms if you will. Well that doesn't sound to me like someone who wants it more. 
But even if that wasn't the case, due to her huge increase in weight, she is has become physically limited in what we can do. I have asked her in the past what can I do to make this happen more often. All I get is vague and ambiguous answers. I've given up trying anymore. I have no desire to even have sex with her anymore. Wish We could have an outsourcing agreement. That way the marriage stays intact, the family stays intact, I still remain a full time father and helpmate around the house etc. I'm obviously not desired by her anyways.. 
not saying it's right but I'm just a normal guy who doesn't want to say good bye to romance 


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

WorkingOnMe said:


> And you cried over it? Man, this was a huge power play for her. My wife tried that move once. I laughed and told her she was a failure as a wife. Then I started leaving lube on the bathroom counter every morning whether I used it or not. Now a few years later she's after me for sex several times a week. I think you should call her bluff.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I cried over the possible loss of my 2 little girls whom I love more than life itself. 
But I agree with you. Maybe it's time I took a combat stance and put it back on her. 
Just sucks that when a wife wants a divorce or separation she gets to live in the same house, sleep in the same bed and gets to live her life like normal. I'm the one who's becoming homeless. 


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Your kids would rather you happy and have a chance to see a healthy relationship when you move on rather than have you there as a helpmate and roommate. See the kids 50/50 and build a happy life and partner you can role model the kind of marriage you want them to have. 

Life is too short. I'd usually recommend trying to re-find romance and love to try to naturally build sex but she seems a little too far gone imo. Not understanding that a man will mb if he is only getting sex twice a year? That woman doesn't care enough about sex to fix it. 

Oh and 
LD - low drive
HD - high drive 
BS - betrayed spouse (someone who is cheated on) 
WS- wayward spouse (cheated)


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

seabeeken123 said:


> She says she wants it more but with strings attached. Almost like contractual terms if you will. Well that doesn't sound to me like someone who wants it more.
> But even if that wasn't the case, due to her huge increase in weight, she is has become physically limited in what we can do. I have asked her in the past what can I do to make this happen more often. All I get is vague and ambiguous answers. I've given up trying anymore. I have no desire to even have sex with her anymore. Wish We could have an outsourcing agreement. That way the marriage stays intact, the family stays intact, I still remain a full time father and helpmate around the house etc. I'm obviously not desired by her anyways..
> not saying it's right but I'm just a normal guy who doesn't want to say good bye to romance
> 
> ...


So you want an open marriage to get your needs met but she doesn't even approve of your masturbation? She sounds like she needs counseling. If you took the sex out of the picture, and this is a big if, Is everything else in the marriage acceptable to you?

If not, then you owe it to yourself and your children to plan your exit. A sign of codependency and I'm not necessarily saying you are because I didn't read the whole thing carefully is thinking people wouldn't survive without you making your status quo or a heroic effort. Think about what you and your children really need and then figure out a way to do it without sacrificing yourself. I don't think your outsourcing solution is sustainable.


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Your kids would rather you happy and have a chance to see a healthy relationship when you move on rather than have you there as a helpmate and roommate. See the kids 50/50 and build a happy life and partner you can role model the kind of marriage you want them to have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks so much for all you've said 


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

seabeeken123 said:


> I cried over the possible loss of my 2 little girls whom I love more than life itself.
> But I agree with you. Maybe it's time I took a combat stance and put it back on her.
> Just sucks that when a wife wants a divorce or separation she gets to live in the same house, sleep in the same bed and gets to live her life like normal. I'm the one who's becoming homeless.
> 
> ...


I went from being a full time WAHM to being a 50/50 co parent, it broke my heart and I'm still not over it almost 8 years later. 
We both took a huge financial hit but have both recovered. 
Our sex life and emotional connection was zero. I had become physically ill the last few years due to the stress of being in a sexless marriage, the toll it took on my self esteem was debilitating. I thought I was ugly, fat and unworthy, it consumed most of my waking hours. .

Fast forward to today and I am in my second marriage with a compatible man inside and outside the bedroom. Turns out I am not fat and ugly, the complete opposite, it is amazing the level you can get down to when you are in the sort of marriage I was and you are.
My kids survived and are thriving, they all have a healthy relationship with their Step Dad and we live in a blended family of 5 teens/young adults.

You are in the dark place, do you want to live the rest of your life in that place? Do you want to hand over your self esteem on a platter to someone that does not like you (forget love, that left the building long ago by the sound of it).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

seabeeken123 said:


> Try only getting it once or twice a year with your wife.
> 
> I cried when she asked for a separation. Now a week later, maybe we should.


Yes, you should separate. You will both be happier.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

Let me just say for the record, call me India. I'm your outsourcing HQ. You may not understand me, but I come cheap. I will try hard to make you happy.

I mean really, shouldn't we all be having good sex? 

Call me. I'm in the book.


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

KrisAmiss said:


> Let me just say for the record, call me India. I'm your outsourcing HQ. You may not understand me, but I come cheap. I will try hard to make you happy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your too funny!!


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

MrsHolland said:


> I went from being a full time WAHM to being a 50/50 co parent, it broke my heart and I'm still not over it almost 8 years later.
> 
> We both took a huge financial hit but have both recovered.
> 
> ...




So happy it had a good ending. Thanks for sharing! 


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

seabeeken123 said:


> My life story with one exception:
> 
> Actually two exceptions.
> Try only getting it once or twice a year with your wife. I refuse to initiate foreplay by begging.
> ...


Hang on - she wants out of the marriage because you... masturbate?

I'd tell you to tell her that people masturbate no matter how much sex they're having. That it's none of her business, it's your body, and that it's not a replacement for sex in the first place. But all of that would be lost on her.

The real reason she's livid about it is because it's a little piece of the control she feels she has over you that has disappeared. She's not actually angry that you masturbate, or that you take care of your needs on your own instead of with her, because she knows damn well she's not giving it to you, anyway. It's all about control.

And those are the absolute worst spouses to have - those that need to control your every move, every action, and who come down on you with fire and fury for no reason other than they have no control over an aspect of your life.

My ex wife was a lot like that. I'd have half a dozen things to do on any particular day. If I got through 5 of the 6, I was a failure because I didn't do that last one. And that would always happen to be the most important one, of course. Or if I got all 6 things done, she'd find something wrong with one of them. Always a reason to be mad at me.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Alexm
If I got through 5 of the 6, I was a failure because I didn't do that last one. And that would always happen to be the most important one, of course. Or if I got all 6 things done, she'd find something wrong with one of them. Always a reason to be mad at me. *

U 2? Must have been married to the same woman or her twin.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Handy said:


> * Alexm
> If I got through 5 of the 6, I was a failure because I didn't do that last one. And that would always happen to be the most important one, of course. Or if I got all 6 things done, she'd find something wrong with one of them. Always a reason to be mad at me. *
> 
> U 2? Must have been married to the same woman or her twin.


Well, if you're the OM she left me for, then you deserve it! :grin2:


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

alexm, I have been married to the same woman for 49 years, so unless your XW is 65+, it must have been her twin or one of those reincarnation things.

BTW, I quit promising to do things and cut back from 5 things to 1 or 2 things and still get the critical review because I am not as fast as she wants me to be. My W's main question is "are you finished yet?" 

Painting a car as an example:
Me, no first I have to take off the chrome/trim, de-wax the paint, look for dings so I can fill them, then I have to sand the car, after that I have to spray on a guide coat to see where the high and low spots are. After that the car needs to be primed, sealed, re-masked, and then I have to clean the shop before I start putting on the finish coat. I need to spray on 4 light coats so the paint doesn't run and after the paint is dry or cured, I have to put the chrome, trim, and lights back on the car. 

So, NO, I am not finished.

I replaced the shingles on my roof and took a month to do the work. Are you finished yet was a common question after about a week. 

I blame part of the "are you finished" on the 1 hr TV home remodeling programs my W watches. Things on TV look easy but you do not see the other 10 or 20 people doing the work, just the 2 TV stars.

Some sexual encounters went a similar way. She wanted to go to sleep.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Handy said:


> alexm, I have been married to the same woman for 49 years, so unless your XW is 65+, it must have been her twin or one of those reincarnation things.
> 
> BTW, I quit promising to do things and cut back from 5 things to 1 or 2 things and still get the critical review because I am not as fast as she wants me to be. My W's main question is "are you finished yet?"
> 
> ...


It hurts my eyes to read things like his, are you a saint with unlimited patience?

Have you ever simply told your wife she is a nagging *****? Honestly in cases like this I would tell that she is behaving awfully, hand her the work tools then go to the pub. You put up with being belittle for 49 years so you are responsible for where your life is at.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Mrs Holland
........, hand her the work tools then go to the pub.*

I never looked at it like that. Maybe I should go to the pub. I used to think the "are you done" was half a concern for what I was doing but she doesn't realize what it takes to do most of the jobs I undertake.

What I HAVE been doing is going for a bicycle ride or to the gym from 1 to 2 hrs after I feel good about a stopping point. I have mostly learned to do things for my own satisfaction, stopping point included.

Back to "outsourcing." Most people on TAM say divorce or get a "hall pass." (High school term for being allowed to go places usually out of bounds during certain hours). Most people think asking for an open marriage will cause a lot of problems and will end the marriage early so they avoid the anxiety that topic and all of the usual arguments. 

Here is what I have read; No sex with the spouse but the spouse gets upset if the HD partner takes care of him/herself or watches erotica. If this the case, what would happen if the HD person suggested an open marriage. Yea, might as well go straight for the divorce. OR do I have it wrong?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

For the most part asking for an open marriage would kill it. But there may be some women who are LD with their husbands but would like their own side piece. 

I read a lot about open marriages, poly, etc. Sometimes the guy wants a "Hall pass" so he asks to open the marriage. He didn't really think about the her sleeping with other men part. 
She says yes, ends up sleeping with someone(s) else (it's easier for the female partner to find sex for the most part) and he gets pissed. Sometimes he's not able to find a partner as quickly or he sees her putting too much effort into the new man/men. 

Open marriage is not for everyone. It can work if you have a solid base, trust, firm boundaries. But a marriage in ruins is not the time to open it. 

Let's say it's a sexless situation, the man finds a new partner, he's happy. He's not had his needs met in so long he's going to develop emotional feelings. He's going to feel in love with the woman who is meeting his needs. It's going to be all foggy and addictive like an affair. 

A time for open marriage is when you're needs are met, you're happy but you just want some extra cherry on your sundae.


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## itsontherocks (Sep 7, 2015)

I think you try to talk about your issues within your marriage. If no solution is met, then you file for divorce. Rest assured, most people cannot handle having their wive being drilled by a gang bang. Equally, I do not think most women would like to know that their husband's penis is been in more holes than Swiss cheese. Then again, maybe I'm just an old fashion Gen-Xer.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* SlowlyGoingCrazy
Let's say it's a sexless situation, the man finds a new partner, he's happy. He's not had his needs met in so long he's going to develop emotional feelings. He's going to feel in love with the woman who is meeting his needs. It's going to be all foggy and addictive like an affair.

A time for open marriage is when you're needs are met, you're happy but you just want some extra cherry on your sundae. *

I agree with the first paragraph. The cheery on top, well I don't think too many people are good at navigating a side relationship.

I have read women get so many requests if they want an affair they do not have time to reply (computer world). Men on the other hand gets tones of interests from scammers that eventually want money or from guys posing as women. One guy I read about got a response from a woman that tried to blackmail him after she had his name and address.

HD Men AND women is a low or no sex marriage have it rough. Some LD spouses expect the HD person to just turn off their drive. Hay, like a lot of other things in relationships, "there is NO OFF or ON switch. I have read way too many stories where the one wanting a physical and emotional relationship were very depressed, which also can't be turned off. Medication dulls the pain but also takes some of the other joys in like and also dulls those events.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

It is certainly easier for a woman to find sex but let me tell you, quantity does not = quality. Even finding someone who can make you O is more of a challenge on the woman's side so it's not all rainbows and sunshine over here. 

And no, you can't turn off your drive and MBing is like a small snack when you're starving. There is also mental and emotional damage and it starts to wear on other areas of your life. It is horrible. But everyone has the option to divorce. It may be a crappy option but it's there.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

I gather an O for a woman is a more complicated task than for a man. I might write about sex and O'ing but I also would need the emotional, respect, connectedness, etc that goes along with a close sexual relationship. Like you said the quality is the difficult part. People vary so much and the individual person defines the quality. to add to the chore of finding quality, people seem to have this "chemistry" thing that works for or against the relationship / connection. The next level is things and moves can get old because many people like some variety.

MBing=snacks, well that or a few other more difficult options is (MBing) some people's mainstay. Lots of people do what they need to do to get through the next 15, 30, 60 minuets or the next 24 hours.

I read that you are not a rigid, black vs white (right-wrong) person when it comes to your own personal relationships.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

My relationship now is not black and white but I couldn't have had what I do now with my ex. Too much resentment, lack of trust, hurt feelings. 
We were at the point where nothing could fix us even if I did start getting what I needed. There was just too much past hurt to ever repair. 

Best bet is to start fresh with someone who is sexually compatible. The chances of fixing a sexually mismatched relationship before too much resentment kicks in are slim to none.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Handy said:


> HD Men AND women is a low or no sex marriage have it rough. Some LD spouses expect the HD person to just turn off their drive. Hay, like a lot of other things in relationships, "there is NO OFF or ON switch. I have read way too many stories where the one wanting a physical and emotional relationship were very depressed, which also can't be turned off. Medication dulls the pain but also takes some of the other joys in like and also dulls those events.


If you aren't going to leave, might as well make it clear to the LD: "I am going to be depressed for as long as we are together. Yes, I understand that makes me even less sexually attractive to you. I am not telling you this to get you to have sex with me. I am telling you this so that 10 years from now when you can't understand why I haven't advanced in my career and why I am always such a downer all the time, I can say 'what did you think was going to happen when you stopped meeting my need for sex'. And to force both of us to question why we are staying together if I want sex with you but you don't want sex with me."


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> I honestly do not wish to cheat on my wife. ..... her libido has been virtually non-existant. She still allows me to have sex with her 1-2 times a week, even though she really doesn't seem to be enjoying herself all that much. * We've argued and argued about this for about 2 years now... it never changes. I try to be nice about it, letting her know how her lack of sexual desire makes me feel. * She gets upset and says that just puts MORE pressure on her, making it all that much harder to become aroused. I've explored every option; she's having an affair. She doesn't find me attractive or love me anymore. Yada yada yada, none of these things are true. She has been to the doctor and the OBGYN about this problem, and their advice was simply; that's very common for mothers of young children, your sex drive will return. She claims she wants it to return.
> 
> .....



I have been where you are, but only worse, my wife would not at all have sex with me or anyone, she lost total interest in sex totally. I was in a sex starved marriage. Having sex with your wife 1 to 2 times a week is not as bad as it gets. No sex for any reason or sex that is emotionally abusive is far worse. 

You W is trying and she is probably pushing the heck out of herself for you. View it as a statement of how much she loves you as you look in a mirror for the cause of your problems.

What helped me was 3 things. (MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage, Glover's Book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, and a great sex therapist).

You need to understand that no matter what you believe, you are probably part of the problem. It might be that you are enabling dysfunctional behavior by your wife or it could be you have unknowingly done things to severely hurt her emotionally. 

Read both Davis book and the book by Glover and you will be given suggestions on changing yourself as a first step in changing your marriage. You can't change your wife, only she can change herself. You can change yourself and that may trigger a need on the part of your wife to change herself, for the better or for the worse. But at least if you change yourself for the better, you will have tried to save your marriage.

Then quickly get professional help. A sex therapist is a marriage counselor with extra training. A good one will be expensive, but much cheaper than attorney fees in a divorce case.

Good luck.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It is certainly easier for a woman to find sex but let me tell you, quantity does not = quality. Even finding someone who can make you O is more of a challenge on the woman's side so it's not all rainbows and sunshine over here.


I can confirm this to be true. The only thing that is easy to find are one-off hookups and those rarely result in satisfying sex for the woman.

I hate it when men tell women that it is "easy" for them to find sex ... it simply isn't true.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Red Sonja said:


> I can confirm this to be true. The only thing that is easy to find are one-off hookups and those rarely result in satisfying sex for the woman.
> 
> I hate it when men tell women that it is "easy" for them to find sex ... it simply isn't true.


But it is easy for women to get sex. Women have to be on guard and and have to work to not have every guy they meet trying to climb on them.

Finding one that they like and that satisfies them is a whole other story.

My mom told my sister, ".. Getting a man into bed is the easiest thing in the world. Getting him to do what you want once he's there is one of the hardest."


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

badsanta said:


> How does the saying go... If you really want a job done right, you have to do it yourself!


That was true when jobs were obvious. Most jobs these days require skills that you can only learn by doing things wrong many times.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> But it is easy for women to get sex. Women have to be on guard and and have to work to not have every guy they meet trying to climb on them.
> 
> Finding one that they like and that satisfies them is a whole other story.
> 
> My mom told my sister, ".. Getting a man into bed is the easiest thing in the world. Getting him to do what you want once he's there is one of the hardest."


Yes but it's not like with men where bad sex is like cold pizza, it's still edible. 

Taking away the very real chance of us actually getting raped or murdered if we end up in the wrong bed, bad sex for a woman is pointless. It can be painful or feel disgusting. There's nothing satisfying about it. 

In my experience dating there were much more bad in bed than good in bed.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes but it's not like with men where bad sex is like cold pizza, it's still edible.
> 
> Taking away the very real chance of us actually getting raped or murdered if we end up in the wrong bed, bad sex for a woman is pointless. It can be painful or feel disgusting. There's nothing satisfying about it.
> 
> In my experience dating there were much more bad in bed than good in bed.


Yes, this is what my wife has told me, and I believe it. Still, while sex may still be okay for men most of the time, it's almost as hard for men to find women who are good at sex, as it is for women to find men who are good at sex. I base this on my own experience - most are mediocre/average, some are just awful, and few are good, fun and exciting. The only advantage many women have - if they wish to make use of it - is that it is much easier to find _another_ new partner, and keep doing this until they find someone who IS good at sex. Most men have far fewer prospects, but at least they'll get off with most of them. Of course, the larger number of prospects most women can have is offset to a large degree by the risks, so perhaps in the end it comes out about the same in terms of finding quality sexual partners. Quantity, not so much.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes but it's not like with men where bad sex is like cold pizza, it's still edible.
> 
> Taking away the very real chance of us actually getting raped or murdered if we end up in the wrong bed, bad sex for a woman is pointless. It can be painful or feel disgusting. There's nothing satisfying about it.
> 
> In my experience dating there were much more bad in bed than good in bed.


For us men who are discerning, the world isn't so simple. We're human...we're not dogs.

Bad sex is not worth the time and effort. Cold pizza is edible. Bad sex leaves me unsatisfied and feeling slimed. Why the hell did I put emotional effort into THAT pile of mechanized ego?

However...you can avoid bad sex, regardless of which gender you're dealing with, by becoming discerning. Are they a good listener? If not, the sex will suck. And not in a good way.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> I can confirm this to be true. The only thing that is easy to find are one-off hookups and those rarely result in satisfying sex for the woman.
> 
> I hate it when men tell women that it is "easy" for them to find sex ... it simply isn't true.


Two different issues. One is whether the sex is good. The other is whether the sex is available.

I will grant you that for women the challenge is finding good sex rather than finding sex. You seem to believe that the ability to obtain "bad" sex is worthless. I disagree. 

Sex is not merely about the mechanics or the sensations or the orgasm. Sex is also about acceptance and ego and validation. It may well be that for women sex does not provide as much sense of validation or ego-stroking as it does for men. But that is precisely because it IS "easy" for women to find sex, so for women the idea that a man consented to have sex with you is no big deal. For men, it is more difficult to obtain consent so obtaining consent is itself quite satisfying even if the sex is terrible.

The fact that women do not ascribe much value in convincing a man to have sex with them proves our point that it is "easy" for women to find someone to have sex with. I grant you that once anyone gets over that hurdle, humans tend to want the sex they do have to be both emotionally and sensually fulfilling. And achieving that goal may well be more difficult for women than for men.

But don't dismiss the value derived from the availability of crappy sex until you have spent some time living without the availability of any sex at all. There are women who have experienced this. Threads on TAM about it. Their anguish and despair is palpable.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I was in a sexless marriage. 10 years. I still don't think being able to find bad sex is anything positive. 

A- these guys would take home anything. It says absolutely nothing about your attractiveness or desirability. 
B- it feels horrible and invasive at best, no orgasm, no good feeling at all. 
Think prostate exam at your dr office. That's pretty much bad sex for a woman. Ya someone is touching you but it doesn't feel good. 
At very least the majority of men having bad sex orgasm and it physically feels good at some point.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I was in a sexless marriage. 10 years. I still don't think being able to find bad sex is anything positive.
> 
> A- these guys would take home anything. It says absolutely nothing about your attractiveness or desirability.
> B- it feels horrible and invasive at best, no orgasm, no good feeling at all.
> ...


It's easy to find bad sex. The problem is, you have to - potentially - put up with a lot of bad sex whether seeking a relationship or just sex, in order to find someone who is a good match. The alternative is to not have a relationship or sex at all.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yep, go through tons of guys trying to find one who is good and suddenly your "number" is high and you're a sl*t. Can't win lol. 
I decided sl*t was vastly better than stuck with bad sex so I went through many partners finding one who knew what he was doing. 
The ratio out there is terrible and the worst part is that most of the men thought they were amazing in bed.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> B- it feels horrible and invasive at best, no orgasm, no good feeling at all.
> Think prostate exam at your dr office. That's pretty much bad sex for a woman. Ya someone is touching you but it doesn't feel good.
> At very least the majority of men having bad sex orgasm and it physically feels good at some point.


Now that makes sense to me. Thanks. I learned something today.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Two different issues. One is whether the sex is good. The other is whether the sex is available.
> 
> I will grant you that for women the challenge is finding good sex rather than finding sex. You seem to believe that the ability to obtain "bad" sex is worthless. I disagree.
> 
> ...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> Great sex: the type of sex with a significant other where there is some type of established relationship and is a mutual experience.


A relationship is not required. Some of my very best sexual experiences were with someone I'd just met, and with whom I never had an established relationship. Truly great, very memorable, and simply amazing. Sometimes, there is a great connection, fantastic chemistry, and highly compatible skills. On the other hand, it _may_ not be sustainable - but that's not the point. It's amazing, even though it may only happen once of for a short time. My wife and I have great sex - not _every_ time, but _very_ consistently and frequently over a long period of time - and we also love each other deeply, so we're motivated to keep it going.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Some of my very best sexual experiences were with someone I'd just met, and with whom I never had an established relationship. Truly great, very memorable, and simply amazing. Sometimes, there is a great connection, fantastic chemistry, and highly compatible skills.


I was speaking of my personal definition of "great sex". I could never bring myself to have sex with someone I'd just met, not for moral reasons but rather because there is too much personal risk involved.

YMMV


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

john117 said:


> Just like outsourcing IT or accounting, you get instant gratification and lower "costs" but long term it's not viable unless you get rockstar workers at pittance wages.



A lot of IT work is outsourced to India. Maybe that would be fertile ground to find an "outsourced" worker? :grin2:


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