# Wife wants to take kids out of the country



## binary

My wife and I have had lots of problems over the past 4 or 5 years that have more or less disintegrated our marriage. I've become cold and overly critical at times, and she's just shut me out completely. Every conversation descends into an argument. The trust is gone. It's just really ugly right now for us...

All of her family live in Europe while we live in the United States. I saw a text conversation on her phone with her family about her planning to take our 4 young kids to Europe, presumedly to visit (it's been over 6 years since any of us have made the trip). However, given the numerous unresolved issues between us and the fact that she's shut me out to the point that I don't know what she's thinking anymore, I'm not sure I trust she will bring the kids back. Everyone's passport needs to be renewed, and that requires my signature on the forms, too, so I'm inclined to say no until our marriage is on more solid ground or we divorce.

This same issue came up about 6 months ago when she wanted to take the kids and I said no, then, too, for primarily the same reason. Worse, she told the kids that I was the reason they couldn't go.

Now, I can't say she's ever given me the impression she'd do something like this, but she's done a lot of unexpected things since our marriage went south, and being shut out doesn't give me much reason to trust her right now.

Am I thinking about this logically?


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## lifeistooshort

Does this also means you can't take them anywhere? Because you might not bring them back


And let's say you do get divorced and have a custody arrangement, then she takes them and doesn't come back? What will you do about it? 

Will they just never be able to see their family until you decide it's ok? What if your wife decides they shouldn't see your family? This kind of thing works both ways.

I'm saying all of this because I hope you see that you can't really control this. In fact, she might be more inclined to do it after a divorce if you're nasty about it.

Why have you been cold and critical? Why would you expect to not be shut out if you're nasty to her? 

Please clarify.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

*Check with your attorney and see if they can get some kind of form arranged with Secretary of States office that would make it illegal for her to abscond with them from out of the U.S.

This, of course, is contingent upon what nation they are going to visit and what the reciprocal treaties dictate about that subject matter! BTW, What nation is she wanting to travel to?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## binary

lifeistooshort said:


> Does this also means you can't take them anywhere? Because you might not bring them back
> 
> 
> And let's say you do get divorced and have a custody arrangement, then she takes them and doesn't come back? What will you do about it?
> 
> Will they just never be able to see their family until you decide it's ok? What if your wife decides they shouldn't see your family? This kind of thing works both ways.
> 
> I'm saying all of this because I hope you see that you can't really control this. In fact, she might be more inclined to do it after a divorce if you're nasty about it.


I get it. Thanks for the extra perspective.



lifeistooshort said:


> Why have you been cold and critical?


I have had a difficult time accepting her for who she is, and after going from trying to change her and then to trying to accept the things that bother me, I've just kinda given up while still allowing all the little things (and some big) to eat away at me over time. If it were just the 2 of us it would be easier for me, but I think most about how our shortcomings as parents are affecting our kids and the world we're supposed to be preparing them for. In general, she doesn't mind chaos; I, on the other hand, crave structure. Honestly, I don't know how structure couldn't be a part of our lives given the size of our family. She doesn't mind taking things as they come, but I see being reactive to everything as creating the environment for missed opportunities that could enhance our lives. Starting but not finishing tasks and leaving messes after herself are the biggest things that make it difficult for me to live with her. And, accordingly, the kids do it, too, so all the chaos really unsettles me. Now, I don't expect perfection all the time; my thinking is that, as we set the right examples for our kids, they'll eventually start to get it, thus making our lives easier as they get older. She doesn't think like that. Her message is, essentially, "I'm too busy to organize" and the like. I mean, something as (what I would call) basic as keeping all the tupperware together so we can find it when we need it is something she just won't do (e.g. some of the lids/containers in this cabinet, and maybe some of the other matching containers/lids in another). I do it, but (maddeningly) it's never maintained. The chaos drives me crazy when all I see myself as wanting is to simply be able to function in my own house.



lifeistooshort said:


> Why would you expect to not be shut out if you're nasty to her?
> 
> Please clarify.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't say I expect that, actually. Over time, as I haven't even gotten as much as a willingness to compromise in just about any area of (my) concern, my M.O. has been to ask differently, then louder and finally descend to being critical. I know that's bad, but I always seem to be chasing her in my attempts to communicate, and she is so seldom responsive. I get that perhaps her response (or lack thereof) is a defense mechanism, but what is the alternative to communication in marriage?


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## binary

arbitrator said:


> *Check with your attorney and see if they can get some kind of form arranged with Secretary of States office that would make it illegal for her to abscond with them from out of the U.S.
> 
> This, of course, is contingent upon what nation they are going to visit and what the reciprocal treaties dictate about that subject matter! BTW, What nation is she wanting to travel to?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The U.K.


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## EleGirl

You need to talk to an attorney to see what you can do to set up some kind of court order to make is clear that here are provisions under which both of you must abide in order to take the children out of state and/or out of country.

When my son's father and I were in the middle of our divorce I feared that the would run off to Italy with our son. So my lawyer got a court order saying that my ex's attorney had to have possession of my son's passport. 

We also set up rules by which we would handle any kind of travel and/or vacation. If either of us was going to take our son out of state or out of country we had to give at least a two week written notice. The notice had to include the dates of the trip, departure and return; the address of every place our son would be staying; phone numbers and other contact info so that the one not traveling with our son could contact him. Contact via phone had to be allowed on a daily basis.

In the mean time, I would take the passports for your children and put them in a safe deposit box or give them to your attorney to hold.


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## lifeistooshort

binary said:


> I get it. Thanks for the extra perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> I have had a difficult time accepting her for who she is, and after going from trying to change her and then to trying to accept the things that bother me, I've just kinda given up while still allowing all the little things (and some big) to eat away at me over time. If it were just the 2 of us it would be easier for me, but I think most about how our shortcomings as parents are affecting our kids and the world we're supposed to be preparing them for. In general, she doesn't mind chaos; I, on the other hand, crave structure. Honestly, I don't know how structure couldn't be a part of our lives given the size of our family. She doesn't mind taking things as they come, but I see being reactive to everything as creating the environment for missed opportunities that could enhance our lives. Starting but not finishing tasks and leaving messes after herself are the biggest things that make it difficult for me to live with her. And, accordingly, the kids do it, too, so all the chaos really unsettles me. Now, I don't expect perfection all the time; my thinking is that, as we set the right examples for our kids, they'll eventually start to get it, thus making our lives easier as they get older. She doesn't think like that. Her message is, essentially, "I'm too busy to organize" and the like. I mean, something as (what I would call) basic as keeping all the tupperware together so we can find it when we need it is something she just won't do (e.g. some of the lids/containers in this cabinet, and maybe some of the other matching containers/lids in another). I do it, but (maddeningly) it's never maintained. The chaos drives me crazy when all I see myself as wanting is to simply be able to function in my own house.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say I expect that, actually. Over time, as I haven't even gotten as much as a willingness to compromise in just about any area of (my) concern, my M.O. has been to ask differently, then louder and finally descend to being critical. I know that's bad, but I always seem to be chasing her in my attempts to communicate, and she is so seldom responsive. I get that perhaps her response (or lack thereof) is a defense mechanism, but what is the alternative to communication in marriage?



I understand the dynamic of trying to change a person as my ex did this to me. I'll try not to project but just to provide my perspective as perhaps the one in your wife's shoes. Not your specific concerns.....I would argue that my ex was far less organized than me, but he wasn't able to accept me.

I was never able to do anything right for him so why would I try? He wanted a 1950's housewife that submitted to him and that's not me, and he was very nasty and critical. Why would I open up to someone like that? Why would I stay married to someone like that? One time I gave him a list of things I thought he did well and then asked him for one for me. His response? "I'm trying to change that".....so in his mind I did nothing right but he was going to fix that.

We're divorced. Why would I make any effort for someone that clearly didn't like who I was and thought I did nothing right?

Perhaps this is how your wife feels. You chase her in attempts to change her and she feels bullied and that she doesn't measure up; that's what I thought of my ex. And why on earth would one want to have sex with someone who clearly has disdain for them? Very bad for marriage.

You can't have a marriage where you can't accept your spouse for who they are; you can try to modify certain behaviors but you can't turn them into you. If your wife is a roll with it kind of person that's who she is, and your marriage will never be in a better place until you can accept her.

So let's role this up based on what you've written, which by the way is very honest and much appreciated:

You don't particularly care for her as a person, you're nasty and critical, you chase her and bully her, you want to control where she can take her own kids until such time that your marriage is acceptable to you, which I have no idea how you think that will happen as long as you're nasty to her and don't like her. Which is what this comes down to; you have disdain for her. How's that working? Why should she become you and why should you not become her? Are you inherently better than her?

When you look at it like that it's not hard to see why you're in such a bad place.

Does she accept you? Have you compromised for her? Is she generally a partner, little things aside? What does she contribute? Maybe you guys can compliment each others' strengths. As long as she feels that you're nasty and don't accept her she will not open up to you and your marriage will eventually end, and you will have zero say in what she does with the kids when she has them.

Have you guys tried MC? Maybe it would help you communicate a little better. If not why not just file for divorce and come to a fair arrangement? What is to be gained by you continuing to bully? You're not going to change her into you.

Consider this questions: If you end up divorced with your kids part time and another guy in their life will it be worth it in order to not have to deal with all of these things you dislike about her? Maybe that answer is yes and if so just end things now. If the answer is no then you might reconsider what's really important.


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## arbitrator

binary said:


> The U.K.


*The UK is fair game and reciprocates extremely well with the U. S. 

Get yourself an exploratory visit about this with an attorney ASAP!

Meanwhile, I agree with Ele's advice to confiscate the passports and to bring them with you to your meeting with your attorney!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## binary

lifeistooshort said:


> I understand the dynamic of trying to change a person as my ex did this to me. I'll try not to project but just to provide my perspective as perhaps the one in your wife's shoes. Not your specific concerns.....I would argue that my ex was far less organized than me, but he wasn't able to accept me.
> 
> I was never able to do anything right for him so why would I try? He wanted a 1950's housewife that submitted to him and that's not me, and he was very nasty and critical. Why would I open up to someone like that? Why would I stay married to someone like that? One time I gave him a list of things I thought he did well and then asked him for one for me. His response? "I'm trying to change that".....so in his mind I did nothing right but he was going to fix that.
> 
> We're divorced. Why would I make any effort for someone that clearly didn't like who I was and thought I did nothing right?
> 
> Perhaps this is how your wife feels. You chase her in attempts to change her and she feels bullied and that she doesn't measure up; that's what I thought of my ex. And why on earth would one want to have sex with someone who clearly has disdain for them? Very bad for marriage.
> 
> You can't have a marriage where you can't accept your spouse for who they are; you can try to modify certain behaviors but you can't turn them into you. If your wife is a roll with it kind of person that's who she is, and your marriage will never be in a better place until you can accept her.
> 
> So let's role this up based on what you've written, which by the way is very honest and much appreciated:
> 
> You don't particularly care for her as a person, you're nasty and critical, you chase her and bully her, you want to control where she can take her own kids until such time that your marriage is acceptable to you, which I have no idea how you think that will happen as long as you're nasty to her and don't like her. Which is what this comes down to; you have disdain for her. How's that working? Why should she become you and why should you not become her? Are you inherently better than her?
> 
> When you look at it like that it's not hard to see why you're in such a bad place.
> 
> Does she accept you? Have you compromised for her? Is she generally a partner, little things aside? What does she contribute? Maybe you guys can compliment each others' strengths. As long as she feels that you're nasty and don't accept her she will not open up to you and your marriage will eventually end, and you will have zero say in what she does with the kids when she has them.
> 
> Have you guys tried MC? Maybe it would help you communicate a little better. If not why not just file for divorce and come to a fair arrangement? What is to be gained by you continuing to bully? You're not going to change her into you.
> 
> Consider this questions: If you end up divorced with your kids part time and another guy in their life will it be worth it in order to not have to deal with all of these things you dislike about her? Maybe that answer is yes and if so just end things now. If the answer is no then you might reconsider what's really important.


I suspect you've hit the nail on the head.

What would you have wanted from your ex?


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## always_hopefull

So you get upset about Tupperware? So what happens when something serious goes wrong? I'll be honest with you, having four kids is an amazingly taxing responsibility, I'd be upset if you were riding me over Tupperware. 

As for the trip, get your lawyer to put them on a no fly list for now, if you can. If I recall you dont need both parents to sign for a passport, at least in my country. The issue comes if your separated here, if your not either parent can get a new passport and since your current passports are expired she may be able to get a new one. Taking five people to England is expensive, you may be best putting that towards legal fees. If your wife complains to the kids it's your fault, correct her in front of them, say you cannot afford it but her parents are always welcome to come here. If she says they cant afford it, ask her why then is it unreasonable that you cant afford it? Do the second part in private.

I'd also like to suggest you get some IC for your control issues, they appear to be unhealthy.


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## binary

always_hopefull said:


> So you get upset about Tupperware? So what happens when something serious goes wrong? I'll be honest with you, having four kids is an amazingly taxing responsibility, I'd be upset if you were riding me over Tupperware.


I agree that having 4 kids is taxing, as I have them all to myself regularly as well. That's why I'm so adamant about creating some structure to mitigate the eventual unexpected happenings that having 4 kids brings. And allow me to be more clear: the tupperware was just one example. It's also been the piles of laundry that are left in our living room for months at a time (she washes but never puts away), plus the piles of her own laundry she leaves on our bedroom chase lounge (again, for months at a time), and the <=10 pairs of her own shoes she leaves in the downstairs closet (the 'rule' is one pair in that closet since we all keep our shoes in our rooms), her dirty clothes on our bathroom floor while simultaneously fussing at the kids for doing the same, etc. What I see is that she finishes far fewer tasks than she starts, and she expects me to "help" by finishing all the unfinished stuff. Not occasionally, but as a rule. I can't do things that way, and I've explained over and over that it's much easier for me to help out if things are more defined between us (thus evening the load), but she doesn't budge for probably the same reason I don't: we just do things differently.

And for more context, she was a SAHM up until about a year ago. Now she works part-time 2 evenings a week and does some contracting (at home) the other days. I work full-time.



always_hopefull said:


> As for the trip, get your lawyer to put them on a no fly list for now, if you can. If I recall you dont need both parents to sign for a passport, at least in my country. The issue comes if your separated here, if your not either parent can get a new passport and since your current passports are expired she may be able to get a new one. Taking five people to England is expensive, you may be best putting that towards legal fees. If your wife complains to the kids it's your fault, correct her in front of them, say you cannot afford it but her parents are always welcome to come here. If she says they cant afford it, ask her why then is it unreasonable that you cant afford it? Do the second part in private.


Her family will be paying for the trip, as we couldn't even if we wanted to. After thinking a bit more about it, I was taking the "anything is possible" approach to whether I should agree to the trip; like I said earlier, it's not as though she's given me reason to think she wouldn't return with them. However, after seeing that she'd throw me under the bus to our kids, I get worried that her family would do the same, as I've seen many of the terrible things they've said about me. But I guess that's something I can't control. Focusing on making sure our kids know better than any potential disparagement would be a much better use of my energy.



always_hopefull said:


> I'd also like to suggest you get some IC for your control issues, they appear to be unhealthy.


What's IC? Counseling?


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## Keepin-my-head-up

She told the kids they couldn't go because of you but you were the one who said no.
She was right about that.

A quick question..
Do the labels on your canned goods need to face a certain way?

Other than that, I am in no place to tell you how to raise your kids.
I would contact a lawyer asap if you seriously think she is going to take the kids and divorce you from her home country.
Find out your rights.

Just know that she also has rights and just maybe, living in the UK is best for them.
Be prepared for whatever may come


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## EleGirl

binary said:


> What's IC? Counseling?


IC = individual counseling


It sounds like you wife might have something like AD/HD

She could be taught to be more organized but by anyone but you.

Would she consider IC for that purpose?


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## lifeistooshort

binary said:


> I suspect you've hit the nail on the head.
> 
> What would you have wanted from your ex?


I think some appreciation for who I am and what I do offer.

Ok, so I'm not the best housekeeper, but I'm far from a pig. I'm in really good shape, my kids are thriving, I'm not very demanding, and I'm kind. I have a big mouth but I'm not really mean.

And I'm smart and career inclined. .... he wanted a housewife and didn't support anything I did. I'm now an actuary making good money and he's struggling after retiring from the military. As it turns out he's not as perfect as he thought. .... he's basically lazy, works part time retail, and hasn't been able to keep a woman. 

I'm happily remarried and doing well, so who's the better deal? 

I'd recommend you do two things: make a list with her positives on one side and negatives on the other, then compare.

Then consider what it's like to live with you. 

You can't change her, you can only change your reaction to her.


Maybe if you're a little kinder she might be motivated to make some effort. 

Why did you marry her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sammy64

If they can afford to Fly them, They can afford to fly themselves...


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## always_hopefull

I too have 4 kids, organized Tupperware and ensuring everything is tidy in case something goes wrong is micromanaging. It's exhausting raising kids, I'd rather spend quality time with them than have tidy Tupperware. 

How old are your kids? Maybe you should talk to your wife about working full time in preparation for divorce, because if your truly this unhappy it's not good for any of you. The only way your going to have a "perfect" life is if your 100% self reliant. No kids, no wife to mess things up. Is this how you really want to be?

Have you ever been told by anyone else your overly scheduled and organized?


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## binary

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> She told the kids they couldn't go because of you but you were the one who said no.
> She was right about that.


In a factual sense, yes. The way it happened was she spoke to them about it and got their hopes up before we both agreed to it. For something as big as that, I think it's unfair to involve the kids before the decision is final. That's how I see it anyways.



Keepin-my-head-up said:


> A quick question..
> Do the labels on your canned goods need to face a certain way?


No, it's not that serious. I just don't want my house to be an obstacle course. I want my kids to be able to clean up after themselves and to know how to function in the world we're sending them out into (knowing organization/preparedness is part of that IMO). I'd rather them learn earlier than the hard way.


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## binary

EleGirl said:


> IC = individual counseling
> 
> 
> It sounds like you wife might have something like AD/HD
> 
> She could be taught to be more organized _*but by anyone but you*_.


So true. She's capable when she wants to (e.g., when others are looking), but I can't tell (or ask) her anything. It's always been like that, though. 



EleGirl said:


> Would she consider IC for that purpose?


Absolutely not, I'm sure. She's too proud, IMO. In all of our arguments, it's always me who needs to change, nor is she seldom open to compromise. It's always her saying "I'm overwhelmed, you need to help more," but she refuses to explore the possibility that perhaps she could adjust _how _she approaches the things she does, thus enabling me to "help more," and netting a lighter workload for herself. Ergo, a compromise. She just won't hear it.


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## happy as a clam

Either get yourselves into marriage counseling or file for divorce already.

You two are not compatible as it stands right now.


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## binary

lifeistooshort said:


> I think some appreciation for who I am and what I do offer.
> 
> Ok, so I'm not the best housekeeper, but I'm far from a pig. I'm in really good shape, my kids are thriving, I'm not very demanding, and I'm kind. I have a big mouth but I'm not really mean.
> 
> And I'm smart and career inclined. .... he wanted a housewife and didn't support anything I did. I'm now an actuary making good money and he's struggling after retiring from the military. As it turns out he's not as perfect as he thought. .... he's basically lazy, works part time retail, and hasn't been able to keep a woman.
> 
> I'm happily remarried and doing well, so who's the better deal?
> 
> I'd recommend you do two things: make a list with her positives on one side and negatives on the other, then compare.
> 
> Then consider what it's like to live with you.
> 
> You can't change her, you can only change your reaction to her.
> 
> Maybe if you're a little kinder she might be motivated to make some effort.
> 
> *Why did you marry her?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At the time, I thought she was a good person, kind, shared similar values, good cook ... I even thought our relationship had gone through sufficient testing when my ex, the mother of my oldest daughter (now 18), went nuts trying to make our lives miserable after my wife (then-girlfriend) and I got together. She's still a lot of those things, but as people/relationships change over time, it appears to me that our behavior towards one another has emphasized our incompatibilities, and I don't think either one of us has done a good job changing how we're dealing with them.


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## EleGirl

binary said:


> So true. She's capable when she wants to (e.g., when others are looking), but I can't tell (or ask) her anything. It's always been like that, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely not, I'm sure. She's too proud, IMO. In all of our arguments, it's always me who needs to change, nor is she seldom open to compromise. It's always her saying "I'm overwhelmed, you need to help more," but she refuses to explore the possibility that perhaps she could adjust _how _she approaches the things she does, thus enabling me to "help more," and netting a lighter workload for herself. Ergo, a compromise. She just won't hear it.


Have you tried not complaining to her about all of this for an extended period of time?

From your description of what she does (or does not do) she is not good at running a household. Not all people are. My mother was horrible at it. Your wife sounds a lot like my mother. 

She is doing a lot with the kids and around the house right? 

Why can't you do the things that she does not do? If she does the laundry, why not fold it and put it away?

Start supporting her and stop complaining.

Or hire someone to do it. Some one could some in once a week and fold cloths and straighten up.

I, like lifeistooshort, was married to a man who picked on everything I did. If there were 10 things that needed to be done and I did 9, all he saw was the one that I did not do. Or if I cleaned the kitchen I should have cleaned the bedroom. (I also worked full time and supported him while he was in medical school.)

The nick picking my him was insane. I got to the point that I would have anxiety when I knew he was about to come home. Being picked on like that is a form of serious emotional abuse.

.


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## lifeistooshort

You come across as quite controlling. Maybe this is inaccurate, hard to tell from your posts.

But know that if you play too much hardball here you will end up divorced and you won't be able to control what she does with the kids. Without extraordinary circumstances no judge is going to bar her from having the kids visit her family, and imo she's more likely to bolt with them if you guys have a poor coparenting relationship or you tried to control everything. 

Seriously, if your parents lived out of state would it be fair for her to decide you can't take the kids because you nitpick everything? People bolt to other states with their kids all the time. 

Have you considered that you're just a tad too controlling? You come across like you think you're better than your wife. 

If I was her and wanted bolt it simply kiss your arse, fvck you until you thought the marriage was good and signed papers, then bolt. 

Doesn't sound like what she's doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## binary

always_hopefull said:


> I too have 4 kids, organized Tupperware and ensuring everything is tidy in case something goes wrong is micromanaging. It's exhausting raising kids, I'd rather spend quality time with them than have tidy Tupperware.


If she were spending quality time with them that would be fine, but that's not the case 90% of the time. She's on her phone at every opportunity. She even sleeps with it; accordingly, it's the first thing she looks at in the morning and the last thing she looks at before going to bed. I mean, our kids wait until 11am to have breakfast b/c she'd rather chat on IM or get on the computer. The only times our daughter is bathed and dressed before the afternoon is when I do it. I work from home, but for the sake of my job I really shouldn't be tending to the kids during my work hours. I don't think it's too much to ask that she do those things since she's at home while I work.



always_hopefull said:


> How old are your kids? Maybe you should talk to your wife about working full time in preparation for divorce, because if your truly this unhappy it's not good for any of you. The only way your going to have a "perfect" life is if your 100% self reliant. No kids, no wife to mess things up. Is this how you really want to be?
> 
> Have you ever been told by anyone else your overly scheduled and organized?


Our kids are 12, 8, 6 and 3. My wife is the only person who's ever told me anything to that effect.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Having both people home all day, every day, sounds like a nightmare. Couples need a little time to breathe as much as they need alone time together IMO. 

Sounds like the 3 year old is the only one that would be home from school still, probably be a good idea for her to start looking into a job. Since you're likely divorcing anyway, it will be needed one way or another. 

Then she can do 50%, you can do 50% or hire out whatever you can. 

When I was at home, I didn't worry too much about staying in jammies until lunch and things like that. 
If the house was basically clean, there was decent food made, the kids were looked after then I was happy. 

You do have to let a lot go and pick your battles when you have little ones at home. She probably feels like you are trying to be her boss, telling her what and how to do it. If she kept coming into where you were doing your work and telling you that you were doing it wrong and showing you how she wanted it done, you probably wouldn't be too happy either


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## truster

To ease your mind on her taking them out of the country.. many friendly countries respect U.S. custody laws. Ask your lawyer, I'd bet the U.K. is one of them.


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## Mr The Other

I am sorry I cannot help. 

A few things I would mention, my impression is that men in the UK tend to do a greater share of housework than they do in the USA. There is an understanding that women say they do everything more than in the US, which is why she might not expect to have to do much around the house, but say the opposite.

The other thing is that work can create a certain discipline and structure. This often goes completely out the window. And some people are just terrible at it. Simple things, like putting the washing machine on and doing something else while it operates seem complex to some. I suspect it is harder if her heart is not in it.


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## jld

Have you ever heard of MBTI? I think you are a J and she is a P. The Role of Judging-Perceiving Differences in Relationships

If you can accept that she is different from you, and learn to appreciate those differences, your marriage may quickly improve.

I would not sweat disorder in a home. The most important thing is loving, involved parents.


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## Charlieroger3000

lifeistooshort said:


> Does this also means you can't take them anywhere? Because you might not bring them back
> 
> 
> And let's say you do get divorced and have a custody arrangement, then she takes them and doesn't come back? What will you do about it?
> 
> Will they just never be able to see their family until you decide it's ok? What if your wife decides they shouldn't see your family? This kind of thing works both ways.
> 
> I'm saying all of this because I hope you see that you can't really control this. In fact, she might be more inclined to do it after a divorce if you're nasty about it.
> 
> Why have you been cold and critical? Why would you expect to not be shut out if you're nasty to her?
> 
> Please clarify.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fight for them. Never back down. You have to otherwise they will disappear soon.


----------



## Charlieroger3000

jld said:


> Have you ever heard of MBTI? I think you are a J and she is a P. The Role of Judging-Perceiving Differences in Relationships
> 
> If you can accept that she is different from you, and learn to appreciate those differences, your marriage may quickly improve.
> 
> I would not sweat disorder in a home. The most important thing is loving, involved parents.


I agree you need to learn to understand her and find a way to make it work. It's always worth fighting for at least once.


----------



## binary

EleGirl said:


> Have you tried not complaining to her about all of this for an extended period of time?


Yes, but she says she can still sense my "negative energy" and/or body language while I felt I made every effort to appear neutral.



EleGirl said:


> From your description of what she does (or does not do) she is not good at running a household. Not all people are. My mother was horrible at it. Your wife sounds a lot like my mother.
> 
> She is doing a lot with the kids and around the house right?


It depends on the day. Some days she'll get up and be busy, other days she'll stay in the bed and won't get out until the kids' demands for attention force her to.



EleGirl said:


> Why can't you do the things that she does not do? If she does the laundry, why not fold it and put it away?
> 
> Start supporting her and stop complaining.


I have supported her. Example: one school year when I worked outside the house, I would watch my wife get the kids up and to school every morning as I got ready for work. Every single day it was always a struggle for her (and the kids). So much so, that, in the span of one 8-week period, my oldest was marked tardy 13 times (!). So, the following year when I began working from home, I took that over and eliminated the morning chaos by simply getting the kids up earlier and having them choose their clothes the night before. I would even ride bikes with them to school on a regular basis. And when I got back from taking them to school, I'd start my own work day. All this while she slept in and/or chatted on her phone in the bed. After work, 3 nights a week I was the one taking our kids to their sports activities. And later at night, I'd put the kids in bed (still do). And it wasn't like she spent all of each day cooking/cleaning the house. She'd make one meal a day (I made breakfast for the kids), and once or twice a week she'd do dishes and mop the kitchen floor. She was still a SAHM at the time. And aside from the other things I did in/out of the house, she still said I needed to help her more. Should I have been?



EleGirl said:


> Or hire someone to do it. Some one could some in once a week and fold cloths and straighten up.
> I, like lifeistooshort, was married to a man who picked on everything I did. If there were 10 things that needed to be done and I did 9, all he saw was the one that I did not do. Or if I cleaned the kitchen I should have cleaned the bedroom. (I also worked full time and supported him while he was in medical school.)
> 
> The nick picking my him was insane. I got to the point that I would have anxiety when I knew he was about to come home. Being picked on like that is a form of serious emotional abuse.
> .


I never thought of it as abuse (surprise, I know), but I can see that from the perspective of someone who truly believes they're doing all they can. I've always thought of my approach as trying to create the circumstances in which we could enjoy our lives and not have to chase our tails just to get through each day. Obviously there are problems with it.

And I guess what a lot of this boils down to is that I realize that, if our living situation is to ever get comfortable for me, I'm going to have to do everything while she freelances. I don't see how that's fair when I'm also the one who maintains everything outside the house; the yard, our cars, am the point-person for all the kids' extracurriculars, handle all our administrative affairs/finances and the de facto crisis manager for all things unexpected. I can only handle so much myself, too.


----------



## happy as a clam

Honestly, she sounds like a total slacker. 

I don't think your desire for a reasonably functional household is unreasonable at all. Piles of laundry lying around for months? Lying in bed all morning? Cooking one meal per day? Can't even get the kids ready for school? She doesn't sound like wife or mother material to me. Some women just aren't cut out for it. She's one of them.

And for goodness sake, please stop procreating with this woman. She cannot handle the four kids she has; adding one more would be the tipping point.

You need a housekeeper and marriage counseling. Or a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

binary said:


> And I guess what a lot of this boils down to is that I realize that, if our living situation is to ever get comfortable for me, I'm going to have to do everything while she freelances. I don't see how that's fair when I'm also the one who maintains everything outside the house; the yard, our cars, am the point-person for all the kids' extracurriculars, handle all our administrative affairs/finances and the de facto crisis manager for all things unexpected. I can only handle so much myself, too.


She could get a full-time job. If she brought in full-time wages, would you feel better about doing the household work you listed?

Could you cut back on some of the work? Fewer kids' activities, for example?


----------



## EleGirl

binary said:


> I never thought of it as abuse (surprise, I know), but I can see that from the perspective of someone who truly believes they're doing all they can. I've always thought of my approach as trying to create the circumstances in which we could enjoy our lives and not have to chase our tails just to get through each day. Obviously there are problems with it.


From my vantage point here, it’s hard to tell what to think about your situation.
For example, in my situation I worked full time, supported the family, cared for our son and did all the housework. So I was contributing more than most people ever do. So my ex’s nick picking was uncalled for.
In the case of your wife, her staying in bed half the day, texting all the time does seem to be a problem. Talking on the phone is a bit different. I like to talk on the phone while I clean house because it’s boring to clean and the talking helps me stay focused on the work.

If you truly believe that she is not contributing enough, I would tell her to go find a full time job. Then consider divorce.


binary said:


> And I guess what a lot of this boils down to is that I realize that, if our living situation is to ever get comfortable for me, I'm going to have to do everything while she freelances. I don't see how that's fair when I'm also the one who maintains everything outside the house; the yard, our cars, am the point-person for all the kids' extracurriculars, handle all our administrative affairs/finances and the de facto crisis manager for all things unexpected. I can only handle so much myself, too.


Well it is not fair. That’s what I did when I was married. Maybe you two could use some of her income to pay for some household help and child care. Some women are just really not cut out to be housewives and raise children full time. So play to your wife’s strengths instead of trying to get her to be someone she is not.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I agree that she shouldn't be in bed all day, that suggests something beyond her just doing things differently.

That's something one who is severely depressed would do.....I've been there at points in my life.

It's hard to speculate what's going on, but I'd bet she's just as unhappy as you. That is supported by your claim that she shuts you out.

Maybe staying home isn't for her.....I can envision a scenario here where you guys are in the same house all day, you nitpick her constantly, she continues to retreat and do even less, you become more resentful and get nastier, rinse and repeat. It's not unlike a wife who denies sex because she doesn't feel close to her hb, and in turn hb withdraws and gets nasty so wife feels even less like sex and hb continues to withdraw and get nasty. You've been trying to change her for years, she has been withdrawing and getting more depressed as she never measures up, you feel overwhelmed (understandably if you're shouldering most of the household) and thus get nasty and critical. This is terrible for a marriage, and I guarantee your marriage will not get better with the dynamic; you are not going to b!tch her into doing things the way you want. It's a very vicious cycle.

Your wife needs a job, or something to get her out of the house. Maybe she'll be like me.....not the greatest housekeeper (though I did just mop the kitchen floor and clean the cat box, which I do daily) but really good at a job. Then, as Ele pointed out, she'd be contributing financially and maybe you'd feel a little less resentful.

And you know what? I do laundry but am terrible at actually putting it away; sound familiar? Husband will usually take it out and fold it, and eventually I'll get around to it. He'd probably prefer that I do it right away but it's not a hill he would die on.

Honestly, unless you really think she won't come back I wouldn't pick the trip to her parents as the hill to die on. You're establishing a dynamic that will continue into coparenting if you split up, and it's not going to work well for you to be on nasty terms with her.

You guys need MC badly, and she needs to look into getting a job.

And if she can't go to her family with the kids, neither can you take them to yours. Your family can come to you guys just like hers.


----------



## binary

jld said:


> She could get a full-time job. If she brought in full-time wages, would you feel better about doing the household work you listed?


I don't think so. My issues with her are more behavioral, and that, I think, would give her even more justification for messiness. Further, I actually don't mind doing any household task, as I see it as benefiting everyone in the house. We just can't seem to agree on how things get done, and if the left hand is always disagreeing with the right, "done" will always be an aspiration and not even an occasional reality.

I would feel better if she'd communicate more than she does. The repeated "isn't it obvious?" directed at me by her just tells me that I'm supposed to read her mind. In all honesty, I'm not the most insightful guy. I need to be told what you want from me cuz usually I have a lot of other things going on in my head. Our lives are more complicated than I've discussed here (like most, I'm sure), so it's all the more important to me that everyone communicates sufficiently so needs can be met.



jld said:


> Could you cut back on some of the work? Fewer kids' activities, for example?


Nah, I don't think so, as I'm just concerned with the basics of household maintenance. Thankfully the kids all do the same sports, so there's just one practice session to go to at a time (3 times per week). Heaven forbid one of them wanted to do something else (though I know that will soon come)


----------



## lifeistooshort

binary said:


> I don't think so. My issues with her are more behavioral, and that, I think, would give her even more justification for messiness. Further, I actually don't mind doing any household task, as I see it as benefiting everyone in the house. We just can't seem to agree on how things get done, and if the left hand is always disagreeing with the right, "done" will always be an aspiration and not even an occasional reality.
> 
> I would feel better if she'd communicate more than she does. The repeated "isn't it obvious?" directed at me by her just tells me that I'm supposed to read her mind. In all honesty, I'm not the most insightful guy. I need to be told what you want from me cuz usually I have a lot of other things going on in my head. Our lives are more complicated than I've discussed here (like most, I'm sure), so it's all the more important to me that everyone communicates sufficiently so needs can be met.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I don't think so, as I'm just concerned with the basics of household maintenance. Thankfully the kids all do the same sports, so there's just one practice session to go to at a time (3 times per week). Heaven forbid one of them wanted to do something else (though I know that will soon come)


Are you a safe place for her to communicate, even if what she says is not what you want to hear?

Me ex had real trouble with this but it's important for open communication.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> So play to your wife’s strengths instead of trying to get her to be someone she is not.


Please take this to heart, binary.


----------



## binary

EleGirl said:


> ...Well it is not fair. That’s what I did when I was married. Maybe you two could use some of her income to pay for some household help and child care. Some women are just really not cut out to be housewives and raise children full time. So play to your wife’s strengths instead of trying to get her to be someone she is not.


My wife wouldn't/won't pay for a housekeeper; with the income she does make, she refuses to commit to paying any of the household expenses. She pays for her cell phone and puts (just enough) gas in the car she drives to work twice a week. She also pays for childcare for our 2 youngest on her work days. Fwiw, she actually expects me to be able to watch our 3 and 6 year olds while I work, as if the type of work I do could allow for that (I'm a software engineer).

I did put my foot down and demand that she at least pay for our groceries. And if she didn't, then we'd all just be hungry. This was after I gave her the opportunity to choose what she wanted to pay from our spreadsheet of household expenses). So what she's been doing is going to the store, almost daily, to buy just enough food to make for the day while keeping very little food in the house. I can only guess that somehow she thinks that's some kind of evidence that she's broke, but she doesn't appear to understand that all those extra trips to the store drive up the overall cost of feeding us.

So yeah, even though we both want a housekeeper, I'd be stuck with that cost despite her being most of the reason we need one (imo).


----------



## jld

binary said:


> I don't think so. My issues with her are more behavioral, and that, I think, would give her even more justification for messiness. Further, *I actually don't mind doing any household task, as I see it as benefiting everyone in the house.* We just can't seem to agree on how things get done, and if the left hand is always disagreeing with the right, "done" will always be an aspiration and not even an occasional reality.
> 
> That is a good attitude, binary.
> 
> I would feel better if she'd communicate more than she does. *The repeated "isn't it obvious?" directed at me by her just tells me that I'm supposed to read her mind.* In all honesty, I'm not the most insightful guy. I need to be told what you want from me cuz usually I have a lot of other things going on in my head. Our lives are more complicated than I've discussed here (like most, I'm sure), so it's all the more important to me that everyone communicates sufficiently so needs can be met.
> 
> Learn this phrase: "Help me understand." And then really listen and try to understand where she is coming from.
> 
> Nah, I don't think so, as I'm just concerned with the basics of household maintenance. Thankfully the kids all do the same sports, so there's just one practice session to go to at a time (3 times per week). Heaven forbid one of them wanted to do something else (though I know that will soon come)
> 
> That sounds manageable. Enjoy it while it lasts!


----------



## jld

binary said:


> My wife wouldn't/won't pay for a housekeeper; with the income she does make, she refuses to commit to paying any of the household expenses.


Have you talked to her about pooling your money?


----------



## EleGirl

binary said:


> My wife wouldn't/won't pay for a housekeeper; with the income she does make, she refuses to commit to paying any of the household expenses. She pays for her cell phone and puts (just enough) gas in the car she drives to work twice a week. She also pays for childcare for our 2 youngest on her work days.


What percentage of her income does she spend on child care and gas?
Does she have equal access to the money that you earn?



binary said:


> Fwiw, she actually expects me to be able to watch our 3 and 6 year olds while I work, as if the type of work I do could allow for that (I'm a software engineer).


I’m a software engineer as well and worked from home very often. When my son was young, the way I handled it was to hire a high school kid to come over and watch my son while I worked. It was a lot less expensive than regular child care. And I got to interact with him when I could. So it was great.
You need to find your own solution to how to handle and 3 and 6 year old. If they are interfering with your work, you can fix it. 
If that means that they have to go to daycare, then you just tell your wife that this is the reality.


binary said:


> I did put my foot down and demand that she at least pay for our groceries. And if she didn't, then we'd all just be hungry. This was after I gave her the opportunity to choose what she wanted to pay from our spreadsheet of household expenses). So what she's been doing is going to the store, almost daily, to buy just enough food to make for the day while keeping very little food in the house. I can only guess that somehow she thinks that's some kind of evidence that she's broke, but she doesn't appear to understand that all those extra trips to the store drive up the overall cost of feeding us.


Do you know how much she earns? What percentage of your joint income does she earn?
If she worked full time, what percentage could she earn?



binary said:


> So yeah, even though we both want a housekeeper, I'd be stuck with that cost despite her being most of the reason we need one (imo).


How is your money handled? Does your pay go into a joint account? 
Before she started working part time, what access did she have to money?


----------



## turnera

lifeistooshort said:


> You don't particularly care for her as a person, you're nasty and critical, you chase her and bully her, you want to control where she can take her own kids until such time that your marriage is acceptable to you, which I have no idea how you think that will happen as long as you're nasty to her and don't like her. Which is what this comes down to; you have disdain for her. How's that working? Why should she become you and why should you not become her? Are you inherently better than her?
> 
> Does she accept you? Have you compromised for her? Is she generally a partner, little things aside? What does she contribute? Maybe you guys can compliment each others' strengths. As long as she feels that you're nasty and don't accept her she will not open up to you and your marriage will eventually end, and you will have zero say in what she does with the kids when she has them.


He has said that he didn't start OUT being critical. That he tried to compromise. That he didn't ask for more than reducing the chaos. And that she refused. She could have compromised. She chose not to. She chose to fight instead. This didn't happen overnight. He HAS compromised by living in chaos. And please trust me when I say living in chaos is NOT a 'little thing.' If it is your primary need, it is a DAILY assault of the senses; it is a daily inability to get calm, to destress, or to just 'be ok.' 

Just as YOUR bias against the man in this situation is showing, MY bias against the 'chaos person' is showing. I have boxes my husband boxed up 20 years ago, part of an ensemble of boxes and junk up to 35 years old, that my husband won't go through, won't let ME go through, that keep me from using my garage. We have a 3-car garage without a single car in it. It is filled 10 feet high with his stuff that he 1)won't let me touch and 2) won't go through himself. He has taken over an entire cupboard in our kitchen with paperwork and miscellaneous stuff that I'm not allowed to touch. He keeps TRYING to shove more stuff into two MORE cupboards and I keep taking it out and giving it back to him. His entire 5-drawer dresser is filled with papers, electronics and other crap; I now have to shove his clothes into two of the drawers because he won't address it. His side table (2 drawers and the top) are filled to sticking out with papers and crap. He has stuff jammed underneath the table. Two rooms upstairs are filled with his stuff that he won't get rid of and won't eliminate. I couldn't even put our fake Christmas tree away because he'd stacked so much stuff up in the garage in front of it that I could no longer get to the tree box. Putting papers away is a daily battle between us. 

And that doesn't even TOUCH the dirty clothes he leaves lying around for 'someone' to pick up; the dirty dishes; the trash; the opened mail; the papers; the empty boxes that I can't touch for fear of getting yelled at.

I could go on, but I hope you can get the idea. Saying someone who wants their house to be clean, picked up, and organized and who's married to someone who doesn't see the problem and couldn't care less has a 'little problem' is insulting and dismissive. You try living with whatever issue would drive you crazy, day in and day out, with no ability to change anything. See how you feel.

And the only thing he's trying to control as to travel is the act of taking his kids to ANOTHER COUNTRY, a country from which he may NEVER be able to get them BACK...I'm sorry, but that is a HUGE issue. I had a cousin whose Iranian husband took her kids to Iran "on holiday" and never returned them. She had NO legal right to them because she trusted him. She never saw them again.


----------



## binary

jld said:


> Have you talked to her about pooling your money?


If I can't get her to willingly pay for groceries for her own family, I don't think she'd be interested in pooling our money. She sees her money as hers, and mine as ours.

There's more to this, though: she got a job as a means to create some semblance of independence for herself. Up until recently, our money has been pretty tight, and given that she didn't interest herself in any of our financial business, I basically controlled the household money. She didn't like always having to ask for money, or me getting on her for spending money without knowing its impact on our budget, so she decided to get herself a job. It's been a year since she's been working part-time, and I've been unsuccessful in getting her to be a regular contributor to our monthly bills. Not to say she hasn't contributed anything, but I always have to ask her to contribute. It's obvious to me she has other priorities for the money she makes; what those priorities are, however, is something she won't be open about.


----------



## binary

EleGirl said:


> What percentage of her income does she spend on child care and gas?
> Does she have equal access to the money that you earn?


I don't know exactly how much she makes in total. Child care and gas are about 20% of the income I know about (her hourly income). She does her best to hide her other income that she gets from her other 1099 work. I have seen some of her invoices over the months, however, and I would estimate at it's at least an extra 50% of what her hourly income is.




EleGirl said:


> I’m a software engineer as well and worked from home very often. When my son was young, the way I handled it was to hire a high school kid to come over and watch my son while I worked. It was a lot less expensive than regular child care. And I got to interact with him when I could. So it was great.
> You need to find your own solution to how to handle and 3 and 6 year old. If they are interfering with your work, you can fix it.
> If that means that they have to go to daycare, then you just tell your wife that this is the reality.
> 
> Do you know how much she earns? What percentage of your joint income does she earn?
> If she worked full time, what percentage could she earn?
> 
> 
> How is your money handled? Does your pay go into a joint account?
> Before she started working part time, what access did she have to money?


Of our gross income, I estimate hers to be around 25% of the total (again, I only know how much one of her two income sources brings in).

The majority of my pay goes into a joint checking account that she has complete access to but seldom touches. I only deposit enough to cover our household expenses, and any excess goes into an account that she does not have access to. I do it this way because we need to save money, and frankly, she's always been more interested in spending it.

Before she started working, she had complete access to the household money. As I said earlier (in a previous post I think), I did all the budgeting, so she basically only spent what I told her was available. Our money was tight (check to check basically), so much so that neither one of us really had an "allowance" of any sort.


----------



## binary

turnera said:


> He has said that he didn't start OUT being critical. That he tried to compromise. That he didn't ask for more than reducing the chaos. And that she refused. She could have compromised. She chose not to. She chose to fight instead. This didn't happen overnight. He HAS compromised by living in chaos. And please trust me when I say living in chaos is NOT a 'little thing.' If it is your primary need, it is a DAILY assault of the senses; it is a daily inability to get calm, to destress, or to just 'be ok.'


That really helped to articulate what I've been trying to convey, so thanks for that.

While I would love for my wife to be more organized, a lot of my angst is that she doesn't see her disorganization as a problem. Nor does she see her unwillingness to communicate as a problem. I don't even mind doing more stuff around the house. I'd just like to know what I need to do beforehand so I can plan my time. Remember how I mentioned the piles of laundry in the living room for months? That's because she felt that, since she washed & dried them & put them on the sofa, that I should fold and put them away just because I see them there. What I've asked from her, repeatedly, is to _simply let me know_ that she's gonna do some laundry _and ask me_ to put it away after it's dried. That's all. That way, if I'm doing something else (which is most of the time), I know what to expect and can plan my time accordingly. I don't think that's too much to ask. Yet and still, she refuses that simple request for communication due to her belief that I should just see it there and get started on it. Also, our clothes are sorted in the hamper before they're washed, so I don't see how stuffing them into two machines and removing them afterwards is any considerable work. It's more time-consuming to fold and put away, especially with 4 kids. And fwiw, I do my own laundry and I don't leave my piles laying around the house.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> He has said that he didn't start OUT being critical. That he tried to compromise. That he didn't ask for more than reducing the chaos. And that she refused. She could have compromised. She chose not to. She chose to fight instead. This didn't happen overnight. He HAS compromised by living in chaos. And please trust me when I say living in chaos is NOT a 'little thing.' If it is your primary need, it is a DAILY assault of the senses; it is a daily inability to get calm, to destress, or to just 'be ok.'
> 
> Just as YOUR bias against the man in this situation is showing, MY bias against the 'chaos person' is showing. I have boxes my husband boxed up 20 years ago, part of an ensemble of boxes and junk up to 35 years old, that my husband won't go through, won't let ME go through, that keep me from using my garage. We have a 3-car garage without a single car in it. It is filled 10 feet high with his stuff that he 1)won't let me touch and 2) won't go through himself. He has taken over an entire cupboard in our kitchen with paperwork and miscellaneous stuff that I'm not allowed to touch. He keeps TRYING to shove more stuff into two MORE cupboards and I keep taking it out and giving it back to him. His entire 5-drawer dresser is filled with papers, electronics and other crap; I now have to shove his clothes into two of the drawers because he won't address it. His side table (2 drawers and the top) are filled to sticking out with papers and crap. He has stuff jammed underneath the table. Two rooms upstairs are filled with his stuff that he won't get rid of and won't eliminate. I couldn't even put our fake Christmas tree away because he'd stacked so much stuff up in the garage in front of it that I could no longer get to the tree box. Putting papers away is a daily battle between us.
> 
> And that doesn't even TOUCH the dirty clothes he leaves lying around for 'someone' to pick up; the dirty dishes; the trash; the opened mail; the papers; the empty boxes that I can't touch for fear of getting yelled at.
> 
> I could go on, but I hope you can get the idea. Saying someone who wants their house to be clean, picked up, and organized and who's married to someone who doesn't see the problem and couldn't care less has a 'little problem' is insulting and dismissive. You try living with whatever issue would drive you crazy, day in and day out, with no ability to change anything. See how you feel.
> 
> And the only thing he's trying to control as to travel is the act of taking his kids to ANOTHER COUNTRY, a country from which he may NEVER be able to get them BACK...I'm sorry, but that is a HUGE issue. I had a cousin whose Iranian husband took her kids to Iran "on holiday" and never returned them. She had NO legal right to them because she trusted him. She never saw them again.




You should probably read my latest post before you start accusing me of bias. 

Besides , I'm allowed to have opinion that you don't like without being biased.

I stand by everything else I said. He can stink about the travel all he wants but eventually they'll be divorced and he'll have zero say in the matter, and she'll be much more likely to bolt if he was nasty about everything. 

Nasty and critical never got anyone anywhere. What exactly do you think b!tching at her will accomplish? 

Has it ever worked on your hb?

And he shouldn't take the kids to his family unless they're local, because people bolt different states all the time. What's to say he won't? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You glossed over all the work he tried to do to fix things, and went straight for the nasty and critical talk. And taking your kids to a different country, with much more complicated extradition details, is far different from taking across US state lines.


----------



## Mr The Other

binary said:


> That really helped to articulate what I've been trying to convey, so thanks for that.
> 
> While I would love for my wife to be more organized, a lot of my angst is that she doesn't see her disorganization as a problem. Nor does she see her unwillingness to communicate as a problem. I don't even mind doing more stuff around the house. I'd just like to know what I need to do beforehand so I can plan my time. Remember how I mentioned the piles of laundry in the living room for months? That's because she felt that, since she washed & dried them & put them on the sofa, that I should fold and put them away just because I see them there. What I've asked from her, repeatedly, is to _simply let me know_ that she's gonna do some laundry _and ask me_ to put it away after it's dried. That's all. That way, if I'm doing something else (which is most of the time), I know what to expect and can plan my time accordingly. I don't think that's too much to ask. Yet and still, she refuses that simple request for communication due to her belief that I should just see it there and get started on it. Also, our clothes are sorted in the hamper before they're washed, so I don't see how stuffing them into two machines and removing them afterwards is any considerable work. It's more time-consuming to fold and put away, especially with 4 kids. And fwiw, I do my own laundry and I don't leave my piles laying around the house.


What you are trying to do is to 'nice' your way through the problem. And, IMO, it is a reasonable first step, particularly as she might need support and be overwhelmed. If that backfires, then it is time to man up.
You have tried to be reasonable, it does not work. Separate the finances, and if she asks why, it is because they were shared when you were co-operating, but as you are not then why should you. Discuss what you consider a fair division of labor and if she refuses, do not get into an argument. Hopefully, you are heading to MC and no further. She has very clearly lost respect for you and it does not seem that cleaning up after her is the best way to fix that. There will be many on here with better advice on how to do this than I can convey.
Many men on here will want to to rush to divorce. Many women will continue to paint you as a monster. That is the way of this forum.


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## lifeistooshort

Mr The Other said:


> What you are trying to do is to 'nice' your way through the problem. And, IMO, it is a reasonable first step, particularly as she might need support and be overwhelmed. If that backfires, then it is time to man up.
> You have tried to be reasonable, it does not work. Separate the finances, and if she asks why, it is because they were shared when you were co-operating, but as you are not then why should you. Discuss what you consider a fair division of labour and if she refuses, do not get into an argument. Hopefully, you are heading to MC and no further. There will be many on here with better advice on how to do this than I can convey.
> Many men on here will want to to rush to divorce. Many women will continue to paint you as a monster. That is the way of this forum.



Nobody painted him a monster. The responses were based on the information he provided and have shifted as he adds details.

He first said that he tried to change her, couldn't accept her for who she was, and got cold and critical. That makes him sound nasty.

Then we find out the she's in bed half the day and leaves him to do most of the wok, at least from his perspective. That's not right and responses have shifted accordingly. 

However, continuing to be cold and critical isn't accomplishing anything, so he's going to need another approach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

No one likes living in chaos and it is hard and if it was his job, he's have control over how it got done but it's a lot harder to get someone else to do things your way. 
If I want my H to do his half of the chores, I have to realize that he's going to do them his own way. I hate the way he does dishes. It's stupid and wastes water, takes up both sides of the sink so i can't do anything else for hours, and the very few times he'll actually do them it drives me nuts but when it's his job, he does it his way. 

If I'm the one who's doing something and H is behind me all "the big glasses need to go in the back!!" or "you're using the wrong tool!" or "I don't like where you put the pots and pans!" I'm getting very annoyed. 

We have a rule in my house now, no back seat driving (or chore-ing, or cooking, or fixing). That's for both of us. 

But that's why, IMO, she needs to get a full time job. They share the chores, he has more say and control and can have things done his way. He can draw up a chart of who does what, each do their own laundry how they like it (so if she wants to wear clothes right out of the basket, she can do that) 

and with 4 kids in the house you have to give some wiggle room to the fact that it will never be perfect and set your standards accordingly.


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## jld

But SGC, how can he make her get a full-time job? 

He can encourage it, but I do not see his having influence beyond that. He wasted his influence on things that don't matter in the long run, like whether or not clothes get put away.

I would lay off, binary. Chill out. Kids need happy, loving parents. Tidy houses do not matter in the long run.

Maybe if your wife felt she could come to you for love and acceptance, she would not be on her phone, and hiding her money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other

lifeistooshort said:


> Nobody painted him a monster. The responses were based on the information he provided and have shifted as he adds details.
> 
> He first said that he tried to change her, couldn't accept her for who she was, and got cold and critical. That makes him sound nasty.
> 
> Then we find out the she's in bed half the day and leaves him to do most of the wok, at least from his perspective. That's not right and responses have shifted accordingly.
> 
> However, continuing to be cold and critical isn't accomplishing anything, so he's going to need another approach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On this forum, there are many posters who take an aggressive pseudo pro-female stance (try treating her well and all will be solved) and others who take a pseudo pro-male stance (demand your rights and don't take no for an answer). It is important, IMO, to be aware of this. It has the makings of a long thread.

Clearly, it seem his wife hates her life and is nonetheless driving it the wrong way. He has to take the wheel, but she is unlikely to allow him without a struggle.


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## Mr The Other

jld said:


> But SGC, how can he make her get a full-time job?
> 
> He can encourage it, but I do not see his having influence beyond that. He wasted his influence on things that don't matter in the long run, like whether or not clothes get put away.
> 
> I would lay off, binary. Chill out. Kids need happy, loving parents. Tidy houses do not matter in the long run.
> 
> Maybe if your wife felt she could come to you for love and acceptance, she would not be on her phone, and hiding her money.


If he has not tried this and been patient with it, he should. If has has tried listening and she is on a self-destructive path, then it is time to move on.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

No, he can not make her but he can encourage her to. His answers to that as an option don't seem positive, just that he doesn't think it would help and would excuse her even more from being messy. 

They are most likely going to get divorced, she needs to get a job regardless and better to do it now than when she is a single Mom dealing with 50/50 custody. 

I'd have a house meeting and suggest she up her hours to full time WITH a plan on how and where he's going to be picking up half to help accommodate.


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## Mr The Other

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No, he can not make her but he can encourage her to. His answers to that as an option don't seem positive, just that he doesn't think it would help and would excuse her even more from being messy.
> 
> They are most likely going to get divorced, she needs to get a job regardless and better to do it now than when she is a single Mom dealing with 50/50 custody.
> 
> I'd have a house meeting and suggest she up her hours to full time WITH a plan on how and where he's going to be picking up half to help accommodate.


I hope so. I foresee an issue (hopefully wrongly) in which see genuinely believes she is doing everything already.


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## kag123

binary said:


> If I can't get her to willingly pay for groceries for her own family, I don't think she'd be interested in pooling our money. She sees her money as hers, and mine as ours.
> 
> There's more to this, though: she got a job as a means to create some semblance of independence for herself. Up until recently, our money has been pretty tight, and given that she didn't interest herself in any of our financial business, I basically controlled the household money. She didn't like always having to ask for money, or me getting on her for spending money without knowing its impact on our budget, so she decided to get herself a job. It's been a year since she's been working part-time, and I've been unsuccessful in getting her to be a regular contributor to our monthly bills. Not to say she hasn't contributed anything, but I always have to ask her to contribute. It's obvious to me she has other priorities for the money she makes; what those priorities are, however, is something she won't be open about.


So she's got a job, and you have no idea how much money she makes. There is no clear trail of where the money is going, since she's not paying for any bills or family items with it. 

It sounds like she's banking money to leave you....

With all of the problems here that you say have been going on for years, have you talked of divorce? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

I'm getting the feeling there is a power struggle with bean counting going on. 

You guys either need to get MC or get divorced. 

I can't remember but habe you guys had any kind of counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other

If she were to write a post here, what would she write?


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## binary

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm getting the feeling there is a power struggle with bean counting going on.
> 
> You guys either need to get MC or get divorced.
> 
> I can't remember but habe you guys had any kind of counseling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, years ago, but it didn't really get us anywhere. One thing that stuck with me, though (most likely b/c it confirmed what I had been saying all along), is that the therapist mentioned to me that she could see that my wife had a problem taking responsibility for her actions. 

Up until a couple months ago, and for 3 or 4 months, she had been going to see a different therapist by herself. According to my wife, her therapist mentioned that I might have OCD and that I was very controlling and the like (this came out from time to time during our many arguments). I always rebutted by calling BS, as her therapist hadn't talked to me to find out how I saw things. My wife mentioned that the therapist was open to seeing both of us together, and I was certainly open to it, but my wife never invited me, even after I asked her to. To me, that says my wife doesn't want the therapist to hear what I have to say. Why would that be? From what I have seen of my wife, she can misrepresent situations by leaving out details of her culpability to put herself in a positive light. For example, a couple months ago I asked her to purchase groceries. She responded by asking, "with what (money)?" To any reasonable person, that would suggest she didn't have any money, right? Well, the previous day she left her e-mail open on one of our computers and I saw that one of her family members had sent her money to use as she wished. This was at a time when I didn't have any money and our fridge and pantry were near empty. I didn't confront her about it at that moment, but later in the day I did. I basically told her that she lied by omission (which is what what happened as I saw it). She came back with some ****amamey twisting of words that I didn't really follow (nor do I remember) that didn't answer the question of why she insinuated she didn't have any money when she actually did. I didn't see the use in continuing to push, so I just left it there.

The next day I saw some chat messages to her sisters recounting our argument, telling them I accused her of lying by omission. The anti-me vitriol ensues throughout the chat, and as I continued to read, I noticed that she never told her sisters that she had insinuated that she didn't have any money. A minor detail, but it explains why I accused her of lying. This is why I say she tends to misrepresent things to others.

I've also caught her in lies about money two other times recently, one explanation being "I misunderstood your question" and the other an "I didn't remember (blah blah blah...)". Fool me once...

Oh, and how could I forget... my wife's sister just left from a 3-week visit. Prior to that, my wife and I were actually on better terms. We'd talk, joke/laugh... Not quite normal, but much better. On day 2 of the visit, I notice a change in my wife's attitude towards me (to the negative). She'd have this look of disdain on her face when she spoke and then just started ignoring me. When she came home from being out and walked past me as if I were not there, I had had enough. I asked her to come upstairs to talk and asked her what was going on because I noticed a change in her without any apparent reason. She got loud (I assume so her sister could hear) and started talking about how there are still issues that need to be resolved and what not. I said that, while true, it doesn't mean she has to treat me so poorly out of the blue. I basically told her that I thought she changed so she could act in accordance with all the bad things she's shared with her family about us over the years (and recently). Obviously she didn't like that, but I couldn't draw any other conclusion. I still believe that to be the case. Throughout her sister's visit, I noticed that she'd bait me into little arguments, and sometimes I took that bait, but eventually I got started to realize what she was doing. That was a miserable 3 weeks for me. And unfortunately, the tone set during the visit is still present in our house today.

The more details I remember and write about my circumstance, I feel even more dejected and hopeless that we can turn this thing around. And I imagine I may even be in a bit of denial. This sucks.

I am going to see if I can get my wife to set up a session with her therapist for the both of us.


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## turnera

Can't you just call the therapist yourself?


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## binary

kag123 said:


> So she's got a job, and you have no idea how much money she makes. There is no clear trail of where the money is going, since she's not paying for any bills or family items with it.


To clarify, she has paid for groceries, albeit unwillingly and as little as she possibly can. For example, she buys just enough to make for herself and the kids. I seldom eat what she makes anymore.



kag123 said:


> It sounds like she's banking money to leave you....
> 
> With all of the problems here that you say have been going on for years, have you talked of divorce?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


We've talked a few times in recent years about it, but I we're both afraid to pull the trigger.


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## binary

Mr The Other said:


> If she were to write a post here, what would she write?


She'd say that I've never helped out enough around the house, that I'm controlling, mean and self-centered. With more choice words, I imagine.

We've both been all those things to varying degrees over the years.


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## binary

turnera said:


> Can't you just call the therapist yourself?


I suppose I could, assuming my wife would give me that information. I don't currently know.


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## kag123

I guess I am shocked by how little you know about her life?

How could you not know what your spouse makes at her job? Who her therapist is? What she's spending her money on? It just seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## binary

kag123 said:


> I guess I am shocked by how little you know about her life?
> 
> How could you not know what your spouse makes at her job? Who her therapist is? What she's spending her money on? It just seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Right. Far from normal. I've tried many ways (good and bad) to get her to communicate more, but to no avail. I don't think that helps our trust issues.

She knows that I want her to communicate more, but I think there are many times she simply chooses not to to punish me for my wrongs. And she calls me spiteful...


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## turnera

IIWY, I'd just say "I can't deal with this any more. I'm too unhappy. I need to go to therapy with you so we can talk about this with a professional. And if you're not willing to do that, so I can at least try to understand why things are the way they are, I don't think I can stay in this marriage. This is me asking you to help me by going to therapy with me."


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## jld

binary said:


> She'd say that I've never helped out enough around the house, that I'm *controlling, mean and self-centered*. With more choice words, I imagine.
> 
> We've both been all those things to varying degrees over the years.


I think you can turn this around, but it will have to start with you, binary. Focus on eliminating the bolded from your behavior.

Pick one thing you can work on for a few days to that end. Follow through on it.

In addition to that, add something positive in, something you normally would not do that your wife would like. You could start by thanking her for things she does for you or the family that you normally just expect. You could start putting away the clothes like she asked. You could ask about something you know she is interested in, and then listen to her. Just something somewhat routine, but that will make a deposit in her emotional bank account.

One big thing: Consider inviting her to do something special that you know she would like Sat. If it is something like walking in a nice park, do it in the afternoon. If it is dinner out, or a movie, get a sitter. Plan to let her pick the movie, or pick one you know she would like, even if you don't. For dinner, the same. 

If you go to dinner, ask her about things she is interested in. DO NOT BRING UP CONTENTIOUS TOPICS. If something unpleasant comes up, use active listening to address it. Are you familiar with active listening?

It is just repeating your wife's words back to her, or paraphrasing them, or asking an open-ended question. The idea is to use empathy to see where *she* is coming from, to understand *her*, and not just focusing on how *you* see it. When people feel understood, they usually relax. 

She wants to feel listened to and understood, binary. That will make her feel respected and loved. And making her feel that way, like someone who is important to you, is the key to restarting your marriage.


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## binary

turnera said:


> IIWY, I'd just say "I can't deal with this any more. I'm too unhappy. I need to go to therapy with you so we can talk about this with a professional. And if you're not willing to do that, so I can at least try to understand why things are the way they are, I don't think I can stay in this marriage. This is me asking you to help me by going to therapy with me."


Thanks. I think I can try that. Not that she seems to care whether I am happy; she hasn't spoken to me in weeks. It's worth a try, though, cuz I am miserable.


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## binary

jld said:


> I think you can turn this around, but it will have to start with you, binary. Focus on eliminating the bolded from your behavior.
> 
> Pick one thing you can work on for a few days to that end. Follow through on it.
> 
> In addition to that, add something positive in, something you normally would not do that your wife would like. You could start by thanking her for things she does for you or the family that you normally just expect. You could start putting away the clothes like she asked. You could ask about something you know she is interested in, and then listen to her. Just something somewhat routine, but that will make a deposit in her emotional bank account.
> 
> One big thing: Consider inviting her to do something special that you know she would like Sat. If it is something like walking in a nice park, do it in the afternoon. If it is dinner out, or a movie, get a sitter. Plan to let her pick the movie, or pick one you know she would like, even if you don't. For dinner, the same.
> 
> If you go to dinner, ask her about things she is interested in. DO NOT BRING UP CONTENTIOUS TOPICS. If something unpleasant comes up, use active listening to address it. Are you familiar with active listening?
> 
> It is just repeating your wife's words back to her, or paraphrasing them, or asking an open-ended question. The idea is to use empathy to see where *she* is coming from, to understand *her*, and not just focusing on how *you* see it. When people feel understood, they usually relax.
> 
> She wants to feel listened to and understood, binary. That will make her feel respected and loved. And making her feel that way, like someone who is important to you, is the key to restarting your marriage.


No, I'm not familiar with active listening. Care to explain a bit?


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## jld

binary said:


> No, I'm not familiar with active listening. Care to explain a bit?


Active listening: repeating the speaker's words back to her, paraphrasing her words, or asking her an open-ended question.

Binary: I would like you to buy groceries.
Wife: I don't have any money.
B: You don't have any money?
W: No, it all went to gas and my cell.
B: All of it?
W: Well, I spent some on Xyz. 
B: Xyz? Help me understand.
W: Well, you seem to get upset when I ask you for money for Xyz, so I decided I would buy it myself.
B: You did not feel you could ask me?
W: No. I feel like you would just say No, anyway.
B: It always seems like I say No.
W: Yes. And it makes me feel like a child to have to ask.
B: I make you feel like a child?
W: Yes. With all your rules, and the way you command me to do things, and scold me when I don't, it makes me feel like you're my dad, not my husband.
B: You don't feel respected.
W: No, I don't.
B: What could I do to make you feel respected?
W: You could try listening to me, instead of telling me what to do all the time.
B: You feel like I am bossy, that everything has to be my way.
W: Yes. And maybe I am kind of bossy, too. But it feels like you are like that more.
B: Maybe I need to think about what you are saying. I do tend to tell you what I want instead of asking you what you think would be good for us to do. I bet that does feel bossy, and controlling.
W: Yes, it does. I want to feel like I have a say in things, too. 
B: You really do not feel respected. You don't feel listened to. I would like to change that. How do you think I could do that?
W: How about if we decide what chores have to be done together, instead of you deciding for both of us, and then getting mad when I don't do what you say?
B: I think that's a good idea. I am going to go get some paper and a pen, and we can make a list of what we each think needs to be done, and then divvy them up. And I won't pressure you. If I think more needs to be done, I will do it. And maybe I can learn to cut back on what I think must be done.
W: Thanks, binary. I appreciate your really hearing me on this. Usually you seem to pressure me to do what you want, or you don't pay attention to me at all. You seem preoccupied a lot.
B: That's true. I need to work on that. I probably put too much stress on myself, and the family, that is unnecessary. Hey, wanna help me relax? *big smile*
W: Okay. *smile* But first let's work on that list!
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other

I will add a caveat to active listening. Research generally suggests it does not work. I suspect the reason is that people go through the motions of following the rules rather than using it as a tool. If you are a bad listener and your wife is an open and good listener, then it might be a useful tool. Otherwise, the effect might be limited.


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## binary

jld said:


> Active listening: repeating the speaker's words back to her, paraphrasing her words, or asking her an open-ended question.
> 
> Binary: I would like you to buy groceries.
> Wife: I don't have any money.
> B: You don't have any money?
> W: No, it all went to gas and my cell.
> B: All of it?
> W: Well, I spent some on Xyz.
> B: Xyz? Help me understand.
> W: Well, you seem to get upset when I ask you for money for Xyz, so I decided I would buy it myself.
> B: You did not feel you could ask me?
> W: No. I feel like you would just say No, anyway.
> B: It always seems like I say No.
> W: Yes. And it makes me feel like a child to have to ask.
> B: I make you feel like a child?
> W: Yes. With all your rules, and the way you command me to do things, and scold me when I don't, it makes me feel like you're my dad, not my husband.
> B: You don't feel respected.
> W: No, I don't.
> B: What could I do to make you feel respected?
> W: You could try listening to me, instead of telling me what to do all the time.
> B: You feel like I am bossy, that everything has to be my way.
> W: Yes. And maybe I am kind of bossy, too. But it feels like you are like that more.
> B: Maybe I need to think about what you are saying. I do tend to tell you what I want instead of asking you what you think would be good for us to do. I bet that does feel bossy, and controlling.
> W: Yes, it does. I want to feel like I have a say in things, too.
> B: You really do not feel respected. You don't feel listened to. I would like to change that. How do you think I could do that?
> W: How about if we decide what chores have to be done together, instead of you deciding for both of us, and then getting mad when I don't do what you say?
> B: I think that's a good idea. I am going to go get some paper and a pen, and we can make a list of what we each think needs to be done, and then divvy them up. And I won't pressure you. If I think more needs to be done, I will do it. And maybe I can learn to cut back on what I think must be done.
> W: Thanks, binary. I appreciate your really hearing me on this. Usually you seem to pressure me to do what you want, or you don't pay attention to me at all. You seem preoccupied a lot.
> B: That's true. I need to work on that. I probably put too much stress on myself, and the family, that is unnecessary. Hey, wanna help me relax? *big smile*
> W: Okay. *smile* But first let's work on that list!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for explaining. My reaction to that style of communication (applied to my situation) is to question why she couldn't just say how she feels at the outset? It's not like I don't care how she feels; she just seldom communicates it. At this point, though, I understand that I have something to do with that.

This would definitely be a learned skill for me.

Thanks again, jld.


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## jld

Mr The Other said:


> I will add a caveat to active listening. Research generally suggests it does not work. I suspect the reason is that people go through the motions of following the rules rather than using it as a tool. If you are a bad listener and your wife is an open and good listener, then it might be a useful tool. Otherwise, the effect might be limited.


The difficulty is remaining calm enough to use it, not that it does not work.

But yes, you have to be sincere in your listening. You have to sincerely want to understand her, at a deep level.


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## jld

binary said:


> Thanks for explaining. My reaction to that style of communication (applied to my situation) is to question why she couldn't just say how she feels at the outset? It's not like I don't care how she feels; she just seldom communicates it. At this point, though, I understand that I have something to do with that.
> 
> This would definitely be a learned skill for me.
> 
> Thanks again, jld.


Some people cannot access their deep feelings very easily. When you are patient, and use their own words, you can get into their brain flow. And then you can really start to understand what is driving them.

I don't think you need to give up on your marriage. I do think you need to change your mindset, though.


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## Mr The Other

jld said:


> The difficulty is remaining calm enough to use it, not that it does not work.
> 
> But yes, you have to be sincere in your listening. You have to sincerely want to understand her, at a deep level.


Often the implicit assumption is that the man will learn these skills to be good at listening like the woman and at that point her open and honest communication will be effective. There are a few leaps to make there.
Worth a try though.


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## Mr The Other

I would say though, wanting to take the kids to see her native land and their Grandparents is no terrible thing.


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## binary

Mr The Other said:


> I would say though, wanting to take the kids to see her native land and their Grandparents is no terrible thing.


I agree, in general. For more context, my wife and I haven't said a word to each other in weeks. The only reason I even know of her plan is by a chance reading of a few text messages between her mom/sisters and her discussing details and what's left to do of the logistics. What am I to think when she approaches me out of the blue, asking for my signature on passport applications so she can take the kids to the UK?


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## jld

If you are not speaking, try to do a few nice things for her. That could ease tension, and start to create some goodwill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## binary

jld said:


> If you are not speaking, try to do a few nice things for her. That could ease tension, and start to create some goodwill.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been stewing over this since you posted this, and it's a great suggestion (thanks), but I feel so hurt, disrespected and just overall uncared-for that right now, I couldn't fathom doing anymore for her than I absolutely have to. I know that sounds bad, and maybe I'm being selfish/immature/whatever, but I'm having a hard time moving in the direction you suggest. There have been only a few days over the past several months where I had hope that we could turn our marriage around; the days are just getting more difficult to get through.

At this point I think the next course of action would be for me to get some IC (as suggested earlier). Some action on my part should offset some of this depression/anxiety...

Thanks again.


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## EleGirl

binary said:


> I've been stewing over this since you posted this, and it's a great suggestion (thanks), but I feel so hurt, disrespected and just overall uncared-for that right now, I couldn't fathom doing anymore for her than I absolutely have to. I know that sounds bad, and maybe I'm being selfish/immature/whatever, but I'm having a hard time moving in the direction you suggest. There have been only a few days over the past several months where I had hope that we could turn our marriage around; the days are just getting more difficult to get through.
> 
> At this point I think the next course of action would be for me to get some IC (as suggested earlier). Some action on my part should offset some of this depression/anxiety...
> 
> Thanks again.


I can understand why you would feel this way.

Sometimes we get so hurt that we just cannot get beyond it.

But if things are going to get better, one of you has to make the first move.

And I know that you could make a move and it not do any good.


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## jld

binary said:


> I've been stewing over this since you posted this, and it's a great suggestion (thanks), but I feel so hurt, disrespected and just overall uncared-for that right now, I couldn't fathom doing anymore for her than I absolutely have to. I know that sounds bad, and maybe I'm being selfish/immature/whatever, but I'm having a hard time moving in the direction you suggest. There have been only a few days over the past several months where I had hope that we could turn our marriage around; the days are just getting more difficult to get through.
> 
> At this point I think the next course of action would be for me to get some IC (as suggested earlier). Some action on my part should offset some of this depression/anxiety...
> 
> Thanks again.


You're welcome, binary. Please take care of yourself. I am sorry for your pain.


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