# Why does it seem like people don't communicate with each other?



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Why does it seem like the vast majority of problems I've read on these forums (General, CWI, SIM) all seem to focus around communication? Don't people actually talk anymore? Don't people actually listen anymore? And don't people observe their partner's actions anymore? 

I think a lot of people having problems on here fall into these traps: 

1) I don't want to ask the difficult questions because it may cause an argument. 

2) I'm more concerned with just "checking the box" next to my concerns than to truly listen and observe to see if my BF/GF is REALLY being honest with me.

3) Things are going GREAT in my marriage! We don't have to talk about all of those things, we just "know" that we're great together, so there's nothing more to discuss. 

4) We don't have any problems. If my wife/husband has an issue, he/she knows where to find me...

I don't know what others may be thinking, but it seems like there is a lot of dishonesty and willful ignorance flowing around here. What I'm getting at is that I think people are so worried about being alone that they'll gloss over the difficult subjects to discuss - even to the point of lying to themselves about what they really know so that they can remain together. IDK, just my thoughts from what I've observed lately.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't think it is a question of "any more". I think lack of communication has existed for as long as humans, but in the context of marriage it is only fairly recently that divorce has become common and couples feel entitled to a proper and fair relationship.

As for why it happens; well I think in most cases it is probably a slippery slope.

Bad habits can be "endearing" at the beginning, or else they are simply overlooked in the first flush of passion. Then, when they are noticed further down the line the person noticing might think it is too minor to mention, or that it is too embarrassing to complain given that the behaviour has always been there.

People come under all sorts of pressures; job, family, money, health etc, and quite often the relationship itself is allowed to take a back seat. I don't think family and friends are honest enough to warn people about this sort of thing face to face so the cycle continues.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I swear my husband and I just had this conversation a couple of nights ago. Nobody talks to one another anymore. People are scared to do 'climate' checks in their relationships.

My thinking is, if you've swapped bodily fluids you shouldn't have a problem asking your partner a question or telling them what you want. How is it you're too afraid to talk, but not to get naked? Makes no sense. 

I see so many people here just plain scared of their spouse or partner. What kind of relationship IS that? I wouldn't be with a person that scared me out of opening my mouth. That sounds completely miserable.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

When many of us married we didn't realize we were afraid of our spouses. It snuck up on us when we weren't looking. 

And if you do communicate it ends up poorly so you give up. The other person doesn't listen, gets defensive and you learn that it's pointless.

You ignore actions and red flags because doing so means change and pain. Two things we all seek to avoid at all costs.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> When many of us married we didn't realize we were afraid of our spouses. It snuck up on us when we weren't looking.
> 
> And if you do communicate it ends up poorly so you give up. The other person doesn't listen, gets defensive and you learn that it's pointless.
> 
> You ignore actions and red flags because doing so means change and pain. Two things we all seek to avoid at all costs.


I think this dovetails with making assumptions about the person you are with prior to marriage too. For example, you make assumptions about who you are engaged to based on how their family functions. While a lot of info can be taken from those observations, you can't make wholesale assumptions about someone simply by observing the parents. Or even worse, making assumptions about their values based on where they lived and if they were "middle classed", "poor" or "rich" growing up.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

LOL I married young. I wasn't making assumptions. I was IN LOVE and thought love would conquer all. LOL

Right....


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I think you can become afraid when you start keeping how you feel to yourself. You make assumptions about your partner and build a wall up and stop trying. 

You may have a partner that doesn't listen. But I'm sure that's not a new thing, it's just something you overlooked or thought you could deal with. You also probably didn't share how you truly felt at the time either. You soft shoe'd it... assuming again how they would respond, or you didn't share at all. Now when you talk about what's bothering you, it's out of left field and yes, people do become defensive in that case. They feel attacked.

Change doesn't bother me. I'm a realist. I know it's necessary and has to come and at times will really suck and can't be avoided. It does help to partner with a person who feels/thinks the same way. A good way to know for sure is to see how they respond in a crisis. That tells you a lot about a person. The way a person receives and processes information is very telling too. 

Guess that brings us back to communication again.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> LOL I married young. I wasn't making assumptions. I was IN LOVE and thought love would conquer all. LOL
> 
> Right....


You made all sorts of assumptions... When you're in love and blind to everything else, you assume that your partner thinks exactly the way you do about everything.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

No one really teaches how to have a successful marital relationship, nor that it requires lots of open and honest communication. Communication on that level also often makes people feel vulnerable and they are afraid to put themselves out there, yet they choose to get married and blend their _lives _with someone.

At the same time our society over-shares and over-communicates (twitter, facebook, texting) and provides TMI about a lot of things (I don't need to know your dog just pooped #dogcrap), all of that does not allow for real communication on a deep level. Emotional intimacy is not developed and maintained through emoticons. 

I learned a lot from my parents about communication, but not because they ever told me how vital it is between a couple. We lived in a small house and they talked about everything, so I couldn't help but overhearing. I also remember a lot of Sunday afternoon drives and sitting in the back seat while they talked about all kinds of things - dreams, fears, plans, money, disagreements. Everything but sex. They must have kept those conversations in their bedroom. 

Anyway, I learned through osmosis that married couples talk a lot and talk about all the things they are thinking and feeling. If people didn't have parents who did that, then they wouldn't necessarily know that it's a crucial part of marriage. I didn't really know it until I was much older and realized it for myself.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You made all sorts of assumptions... When you're in love and blind to everything else, you assume that your partner thinks exactly the way you do about everything.


True and I was dead wrong.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Deborah Tannen's book _You Just Don't Understand_ tackles the issue of the differences in male-female communication styles.

Her basic points are:

Women want intimacy in conversation, to feel connected to others.
Men want to give information while remaining independent of the other party.
Women want to reach consensus and consult with others before deciding.
Men want to get straight to the bottom line and choose without consulting.
Women communicate to build relationships.
Men communicate to give information, solve problems and show expertise. 

Of course these are generalizations, but they illustrate how marital communication can break down. There is a basic power struggle that must be negotiated, and it is very easy to let resentments and negative emotions creep in.

You have to think about what is good for the marriage rather than how to win each argument.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/136738-falling-apart-fast.html:scratchhead:


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## bailingout (Jan 25, 2013)

Communication is a learned behavior and we all learn different ways. The real problems arise when 2 people come together with 2 different styles and one or both are unwilling to consider the others point of view. 

IE- H learned that being direct (assertive) when communicating was rude and as a result is indirect leaving everything to be assumed or implied. His style has always been an issue for me but he refused to even consider that maybe he needed to re-evaluate his style. I was taught to be direct but in a rude way. My style has always been an issue for him and I refused to conform to the indirect way. Over time I did realize that I needed to reevaluate my style and that's when I discovered that you could be direct without being rude so I modified by style. 

Now I am nicely direct and he is either indirect or rudely direct. It just keeps getting worse. 

Bottom line- both people have to work it out together.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

This is exactly what I was thinking when I decided to participate on this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/135858-men-who-decided-stay-married-until-kids-gone.html


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

And some of us, after long consideration and an abundance of communication, have found that there is no solution that more information can provide to the problems we face.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Cletus said:


> And some of us, after long consideration and an abundance of communication, have found that there is no solution that more information can provide to the problems we face.


That is another reason why people give up on communication, Cletus, and a wall of resentment builds. When you know that your spouse has no interest in meeting your needs, there is no point in talking about it any more.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

skype said:


> That is another reason why people give up on communication, Cletus, and a wall of resentment builds. When you know that your spouse has no interest in meeting your needs, there is no point in talking about it any more.


True. But in many cases I question whether the initial discussions about hopes, dreams, values, etc. were ever explored in the first place. 

I'm enjoying the various areas this thread is exploring.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Another reason people avoid honest communication is because they don't want to hurt their spouse.

Our marriage was broken and the only way I could see it getting any better was through brutally honest, open communication. It was difficult, feelings were hurt with many sleepless nights. By being totally honest, we were able to rebuild the marriage. I just don't see any other way to do it.

It takes two though and if one spouse holds back, forget it...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

T&T said:


> Another reason people avoid honest communication is because they don't want to hurt their spouse.
> 
> Our marriage was broken and the only way I could see it getting any better was through brutally honest, open communication. It was difficult, feelings were hurt with many sleepless nights. By being totally honest, we were able to rebuild the marriage. I just don't see any other way to do it.
> 
> It takes two though and if one spouse holds back, forget it...


I'm glad it worked out for you and it gives others hope to see a testament made about how honest and candid communication can improve marriage over the long run.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you and it gives others hope to see a testament made about how honest and candid communication can improve marriage over the long run.


Thanks Plan 9,

We couldn't be happier!I just wish we did this 10 years ago! Oh well, live and learn. 

It was very hard for my wife. She's always kept things to herself and never wanted to hurt anyone's feelings. It took a LOT of talking to get her to open up! Ounce she felt comfortable and KNEW she couldn't hurt my feelings, the wall came tumbling down. 

I constantly reminded her that " I was a big boy and could handle it"

If I could give one piece of advice to any couple when communicating, it would be never get defensive. If you don't hear the truth you'll never be able to fix the issue. You will never know what the real issue is...


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Trust can go a long way. A very long way. Trust to share... trust to really hear what's being said. 

T&T :smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

The only thing me & my husband didn't talk about very openly and vulnerably was sex...I don't know how to explain it, just certain things seemed taboo...for me...and he was almost too gentlemanly ....this is the only area we missed each other .. by assuming things that were't so...so when this was opened up wide...we were pleasantly surprised ...and our physical & emotional intimacy grew to even greater heights... 

So yeah.. communication....it's everything...it's like the foundation to every understanding, uprooting resentment, all of it....starts with coming clean, taking off the masks...and being honest... so compromise and peace can be found in a relationship or learning the incompatibility is just too much, too deep, too wide to bear...and getting out...

I found this to be an excellent write up to owning our own faults before each other...and healthy couples DO fight once in a while too...

Communication - PLANTING THE SEED OF INTERDEPENDENCE

Point # 5 says


> Interdependent couples fight! They fight in a healthy way and do not fear or avoid healthy conflict and uncomfortable feelings in their marriage. Because they are able to express their genuine feelings when they occur, they are able to show anger in a healthy way, without rage. When they do show their feelings in an unhealthy manner, they are able to recognize their relapse, realize what deeper issues have been touched, and forgive themselves without spiraling in shame.
> 
> They are also able to forgive their partners for their mistakes. Interdependent couples recognize that to deny feelings is to deny who we truly are. They accept that the full range of emotion is to be real. They know that without expressing genuine emotion, the feelings will run their lives and take over in the form of addictions or other counterproductive and unhealthy behaviors.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I think the major cause is that many think they communicate when in fact they are not. Often we let assumptions of motives or contexts formulate our opinions on what is trying to be communicated rather than putting ourselves in a position to understand from the others point of view what they are trying to say. Secondarily since we know what we want to communicate we tend to think we are being clear and unambiguous when we aren't. 

We are taught in school a lecture/listening approach to communication when it really should be a converging series of inquires to find the common ground of understanding. It should be a dialectical series of questions and answers that go through several iterations until agreement or understanding is achieved. 

So what happens in practice is that we assume the answer and stop at the first iteration and assume we have communicated. Thus later when our partners are acting contrary to our understanding of the communication we complicate it by assuming that they are at fault for misunderstanding. This leads to resentment. This is really the worst part. Instead of considering that we didn't do a good job at communicating we assume they don't listen and transfer the responsibility to others.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

meson said:


> We are taught in school a lecture/listening approach to communication when it really should be a converging series of inquires to find the common ground of understanding. It should be a dialectical series of questions and answers that go through several iterations until agreement or understanding is achieved.


Probably true, but I can't imagine how mind-numbingly difficult communication would have to become to assure this doesn't happen:

"The sky is a blue today. And by sky I mean that portion of the visible world you see when looking straight up when you're outdoors and not surrounded by a canopy of leaves or buildings. Blue of course is that color commonly associated with the visible spectrum roughly in the 390-700nm range"

So I can't argue that presumed understanding is at the heart of a lot of disconnect, but we take shortcuts for a good reason. I suppose the real trick is knowing when the shortcuts are likely to be wrong or misleading.


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## never was (Oct 28, 2013)

I am in the marriage from hell and that's putting it lightly. I read all the post and my head still won't stop going up and down.


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## never was (Oct 28, 2013)

Interesting people here. Does anybody out there want to be truthful with me??? I just realized and accepted that my marriage ended about hour ago. I told her I wanted the big D. The first thought that went through my head was, I don't want to divorce. I'm sitting here asking myself.....Was I a good husband. I'm really hurting right now. Was just thinking!


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Why does it seem like the vast majority of problems I've read on these forums (General, CWI, SIM) all seem to focus around communication? Don't people actually talk anymore? Don't people actually listen anymore? And don't people observe their partner's actions anymore?
> 
> I think a lot of people having problems on here fall into these traps:
> 
> ...


Talking about it is the tough thing to do. Many people want to take the easy way out and ignore the issues, build resentment and then blame their SO for not reading their mind.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> Trust can go a long way. A very long way. Trust to share... trust to really hear what's being said.


So therefore I nominate, *"Lack of Trust"* as the answer to the question, "Why does it seem like people don't communicate with each other?"


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I like this thread.

I think we could also take into account that different people communicate differently. 
I assuming that we're talking about both verbal and non verbal communication here.
I think what makes communication effective in marriage is when both partied are using or understand each other's style, so that they don't talk past each other and head right into the conflict zone.

Honesty also plays a HUGE part in communication.
Some people are not even honest with themselves and cannot be honest with their spouse. Their communication is always mixed, a hybrid of different languages , impossible to decipher.
Yet they expect to be understood.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

skype said:


> Deborah Tannen's book _You Just Don't Understand_ tackles the issue of the differences in male-female communication styles.
> 
> Her basic points are:
> 
> ...


Evolutionary Biology teaches there must be great advantages for mankind in having these differences...

I wonder why these differences seem to frustrate people in marriage relations, are we doomed as a species, or is there a middle ground?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> *Evolutionary Biology teaches there must be great advantages for mankind in having these differences...*
> 
> I wonder why these differences seem to frustrate people in marriage relations, are we doomed as a species, or is there a middle ground?


:iagree:

But I think part of the problem lies in the ever changing popular social constructs.

That men and women are _different_ is no longer en vogue. The new doctrine states emphatically that men and women are the same.

The reason these differences frustrate people in marriages is that they don't appreciate that there are fundamental differences between the sexes. Also there is a difference between sex and gender.
Survival depends heavily on adaptability. 
An integral part of adaptability is differentiation


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But I think part of the problem lies in the ever changing popular social constructs.
> 
> ...


I agree there is definitely a difference between the sexes that is complimentary and necessary IMHO. Women (mothers) tend to be more nurturing by nature and tend to teach those values of love, compassion and empathy. Men (fathers) tend to be more based on a sense of justice so values like honesty, fairness and using right judgement tend to come from the father. Now I'm not saying that mothers and fathers aren't complete people and cannot teach everything to their kids. However, I do think that we tend to fall into natural roles based on how we are born and to a certain extent our sex contributes to how we think and approach things. 

That's not meant to be an ironclad 100% guaranteed fact about how men and women are different. What I described above is more like natural tendencies. There are other parts to people's personalities that shape who they are and how they interact with people too - of course. But our masculinity and femininity does contribute to how we interact as couples. 

The more we can put ourselves in our partner's shoes, the better communicators and listeners we become. That's all I'm saying.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Communication issues in marriage are as old as...marriage.


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## Insanity (Oct 28, 2013)

One evening my spouse and I went out for a nice supper at a nice, urban restaurant. Another couple (looked to be in their 50s) sat within feet of us. I observed that neither of them said a SINGLE word to one another the entire dining experience. They sat glued to their individual iphones.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Probably true, but I can't imagine how mind-numbingly difficult communication would have to become to assure this doesn't happen:
> 
> "The sky is a blue today. And by sky I mean that portion of the visible world you see when looking straight up when you're outdoors and not surrounded by a canopy of leaves or buildings. Blue of course is that color commonly associated with the visible spectrum roughly in the 390-700nm range"


:lol:

No, no, I think you mean that the frequency distribution of the radiance of the sky is to leading order determined by Rayleigh scattering.



Cletus said:


> So I can't argue that presumed understanding is at the heart of a lot of disconnect, but we take shortcuts for a good reason. I suppose the real trick is knowing when the shortcuts are likely to be wrong or misleading.


Yes, we do take shortcuts all the time otherwise we would have exchanges like the one above which is precisely your point. With the above we both said the same thing but used different ways of expressing it which will mean different things for different people depending upon their knowledge of jargon. But it’s a big difference when talking about emotions and with someone you talk with a lot. 

I first understood this when my parents were visiting by watching how they communicate. We use coasters for our kitchen table and my dad put a drink glass on the table on a coaster but from where my mom was sitting she couldn’t see the coaster because she was in another room and it was hidden by the angle of view. Instead of taking it as a reminder (because they don’t use coasters) he took it as yet another attack at his memory. He got angry and they fought over it. It wasn’t just this it was about almost every statement they made towards each other. Each comment was an assumed jab that they felt inclined to react towards. Some were and some were not. Their communication was entirely dysfunctional based on assuming the worst of what their spouse said or did.

I then realized that my wife and I did some of this as well just not to that extreme. I then started to vary the way I made comments or responded to statements. I started to assume the best of my wife and for every ambiguous statement I would pick a likely best scenario and say did you mean this? This showed my wife two things through my actions. First, I was really trying to understand what she was trying to communicate and second I was not considering it in a negative way. Over time she began to have trust that I was trying to communicate rather than start another dispute or place a stake in the ground for what I considered the “correct” view. My questions into things that were ambiguous and suggesting an answer is what I meant by “dialectical series of questions and answers that go through several iterations until agreement or understanding is achieved.” It really works and it helps my wife and I communicate much better.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I agree with A bit much and bestyet2be that Trust is an essential component of communication. One needs to trust that their feelings and views will be respected and considered thoughtfully. If there is mistrust there will be a an assumption of ill intent or a reticence to speak openly which leads to non-communication.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I like this thread.
> 
> I think we could also take into account that different people communicate differently.
> I assuming that we're talking about both verbal and non verbal communication here.
> ...


:iagree:

I was just in a thread last week where I implored a TAM personality to change her communication style to try to suit what I thought was her husbands style. That thought didn't even register with her because she knew she was communicating for many years, it was him not listening not changing that was the issue.

It is like love languages, everyone communicates with a different style which you need to learn and adapt to and translate your style into to achieve understanding. So many people just don't realize that there are lots of different ways people communicate and all of them are valid and need to be considered.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The more we can put ourselves in our partner's shoes, the better communicators and listeners we become. That's all I'm saying.



Firstly,Kudos for starting this thread and the clarity of your opening post.
I think we are both saying the same thing.
If I understand that my wife sees things differently to me , and I try to see it through her eyes then I can understand her better.
If she does the same for me then we can both understand each other better.
Then we can both speak the same language , because we understand the nuances.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I was just in a thread last week where i implored a tam personality to change her communication style to try to suit what i thought was her husbands style. That thought didn't even register with her because she knew she was communicating for many years, it was him not listening not changing that was the issue.
> 
> *it is like love languages, everyone communicates with a different style which you need to learn and adapt to and translate your style into to achieve understanding. So many people just don't realize that there are lots of different ways people communicate and all of them are valid and need to be considered.*


100% yes!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The advantages derived from evolutionary biology were realized thousands and thousands of years ago with the advent of hunter gatherer societies. Those societies then evolved a method of authority which decided communication. And it was only recently that that authority of the "man" of the clan/house is changing.

Thus as Cman says we need to change up our style of communicating to accommodate the new dual leader households. We have outgrown our biological roots and are in new territory.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

meson said:


> :lol:
> 
> No, no, I think you mean that the frequency distribution of the radiance of the sky is to leading order determined by Rayleigh scattering.


Well played, sir. Oh, and good points too.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Well played, sir. Oh, and good points too.


Your original point stands. When do we use shorthand and when don't we when we communicate with our spouses? I still don't know the answer to this.

My latest fiasco resulted in my waking her up on a day when school was out and she could sleep in an extra hour. But at least she recognized my intent was good and now I will pay attention more to her comments about school.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

meson said:


> Your original point stands. When do we use shorthand and when don't we when we communicate with our spouses? I still don't know the answer to this.
> 
> .


I contribute to this in my own communication style, no doubt. I prefer my spouse to assume that I understand the background and content of the message - over-explanation feels patronizing, and that's a little bit of a chip I carry around on my shoulder. So the best thing for me to do is actively remember that I should ask for clarification if there's any chance of ambiguity. Which means, in practice, that I fail a lot.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Because many people don't know how to converse. 
Statements like " You never .... ", You always...." , when complaining, lack of positive affirmations, lack of patience to listening to what the other has to say, tiredness after work, always in a rush, taking each other for granted, labeling their wish to discuss relationship as annoying clingy type talk, etc...all these are big mistakes. Then couple wake up one day in the M counselor's office, look at each other and barely can start talking, because they forgot how to do such thing. They forgot how to communicate.

Thanks to TAM , I improved my already good relationship. I let go of some people and habits that I realized were toxic since being on here. I learnt to improve communication, and found some great relationship books that every couple should read. 
Don't wait until you're in trouble to read those books. Read them while still happy and going strong, to better preserve what you have instead of fixing it when broken.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I contribute to this in my own communication style, no doubt. I prefer my spouse to assume that I understand the background and content of the message - over-explanation feels patronizing, and that's a little bit of a chip I carry around on my shoulder. So the best thing for me to do is actively remember that I should ask for clarification if there's any chance of ambiguity. Which means, in practice, that I fail a lot.


To be truthful the type of communication I value the most is non verbal. I learned to do this with my grandfather and it suits me the best. I also am able to do this with my main climbing partner. The context is completely known by each of us and the understanding is deep. 

The problem I discovered is that even though that's what I want and prefer, it doesn't work with my spouse. That was the biggest lesson I learned to improve my marriage especially since I like to initiate sex with non verbal queues.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

My husband is an engineer, and when we were first married he used to dissect everything that I said with meticulous precision. I would feel hurt and angry and say to him, "But you know what I mean! Why do you have to be so technical about everything that I say?" 

Then one day the light bulb turned on for me. Oh, he is an engineer. That is how he looks at the world. I then stopped taking everything he said as a personal attack on me. I also pointed this out to him, and he made a concerted effort to stop analyzing my every word. 

Understanding each other's communication style and not making assumptions about criticism is crucial to a happy, long-lasting marriage.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> Because many people don't know how to converse.
> Statements like " You never .... ", You always...." , when complaining, lack of positive affirmations, lack of patience to listening to what the other has to say, tiredness after work, always in a rush, taking each other for granted, labeling their wish to discuss relationship as annoying clingy type talk, etc...all these are big mistakes. Then couple wake up one day in the M counselor's office, look at each other and barely can start talking, because they forgot how to do such thing. They forgot how to communicate.
> 
> *Thanks to TAM , I improved my already good relationship. I let go of some people and habits that I realized were toxic since being on here. I learnt to improve communication, and found some great relationship books that every couple should read.
> Don't wait until you're in trouble to read those books. Read them while still happy and going strong, to better preserve what you have instead of fixing it when broken.*


I also credit TAM with helping open my eyes about some things in my marriage that were not perfect. We had a solid marriage before I came here, but surfing the web one night led me here by chance to this particular forum. It was good to see some affirmation of some of the positive things we were doing and also showed me how I could do better. 

I think a number of posters brought up the idea of intentions. I think a lot of us want to assume that our spouse wants to criticize or point out flaws. No doubt a few marriages are like that. But I think in most cases, we communicate our concerns with the best of intentions, but our spouses assume we do so to make a personal attack or to "score points". That too is not trusting enough in our spouse having love and concern for us and our marriages. I'm just reiterating and not really adding anything new. More like reinforcing it for myself by typing it out.

Loving the ideas you guys are bringing to the thread!


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

meson said:


> ... I then started to vary the way I made comments or responded to statements. I started to assume the best of my wife and for every ambiguous statement I would pick a likely best scenario and say did you mean this? This showed my wife two things through my actions. First, I was really trying to understand what she was trying to communicate and second I was not considering it in a negative way. Over time she began to have trust that I was trying to communicate rather than start another dispute or place a stake in the ground for what I considered the “correct” view....










Sounds obvious when you write it out like this, but it's not always easy to do. I aspire to this. With all people.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

It was hard for my husband to communicate because he literally could not articulate what it was that he wanted to communicate. Unfortunately he was raised that way and we've both had to do a lot of unlearning from our FOO.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

reesespieces said:


> It was hard for my husband to communicate because he literally could not articulate what it was that he wanted to communicate. Unfortunately he was raised that way and we've both had to do a lot of unlearning from our FOO.


Sometimes different family values and dynamics can make a man and a woman like oil and water when they set up house. My wife and I got married in the RCC, and we had to go through a "marriage prep" program. It talked about your backgrounds and what you are bringing into the marriage from your time growing up. It's a cool program that I think every couple wanting to get married should go through. It sadly doesn't seem to reduce the number of divorces but I think it helps give you some tools to help you get started in the marriage at least.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> *Sometimes different family values and dynamics can make a man and a woman like oil and water when they set up house.* My wife and I got married in the RCC, and we had to go through a "marriage prep" program. It talked about your backgrounds and what you are bringing into the marriage from your time growing up. It's a cool program that I think every couple wanting to get married should go through. It sadly doesn't seem to reduce the number of divorces but I think it helps give you some tools to help you get started in the marriage at least.


:iagree:

So true!
My wife was Christian and we had also had to do a" Marriage Prep" programme for a while before we got married.
I did learn quite a lot from it


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Sometimes different family values and dynamics can make a man and a woman like oil and water when they set up house. My wife and I got married in the RCC, and we had to go through a "marriage prep" program. It talked about your backgrounds and what you are bringing into the marriage from your time growing up. It's a cool program that I think every couple wanting to get married should go through. It sadly doesn't seem to reduce the number of divorces but I think it helps give you some tools to help you get started in the marriage at least.


It IS a good program, as far as it goes.

Too bad it doesn't cover sex. It might have more oomph as a marriage helping tool.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cletus said:


> It IS a good program, as far as it goes.
> 
> Too bad it doesn't cover sex. It might have more oomph as a marriage helping tool.


The one that we did covered sex.
Almost every aspect.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> The one that we did covered sex.
> Almost every aspect.


The RCC might have loosened up a bit of late, but it wasn't covered in 1985.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Cletus said:


> The RCC might have loosened up a bit of late, but it wasn't covered in 1985.


Ours covered sex, but we did it in 1996. I think by then JPII's "theology of the body" was brought into the marital programs once the 90s came around. Just a guess on my part though. Also, you may have ended up with prudes for a sponsor couple and they never touched on it. I know the program comes with books, but it's just a guess.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

norajane said:


> No one really teaches how to have a successful marital relationship, nor that it requires lots of open and honest communication. Communication on that level also often makes people feel vulnerable and they are afraid to put themselves out there, yet they choose to get married and blend their _lives _with someone.


I think that nails it. I'm 45, and the information that i have been exposed to since coming here is unreal. It left me scratching my head many times. I would think, "Really? I was supposed to do that in a marriage" or "I didn't know that was a big deal." I thought love and a little common sense was supposed to take care of a marriage. Boy, was I wrong! 

Where was i supposed to get all this information when I needed it? Was I supposed to be reading relationship books at age 16? Even if I had, I doubt I would have believed most of it at the time. 

Sure, we may get a "birds and bees" talk from someone, and if our cousin gets a divorce, the situation may inspire a few good tips of what not to do in a marriage, but where was i supposed to get all the real training for a relationship?

How was I to know people could have a mid-life crisis and want a divorce even though things seemed ok? Nobody in my family ever did, so I didn't know that sort of thing even existed among logical people.

Why didn't someone warn me that not everyone likes sex enough to want to have it often, or that women need more emotional things to feel a desire than I do. i was idiot enough to think everybody liked sex, especially when they were young and healthy. 


I could go on. 




norajane said:


> At the same time our society over-shares and over-communicates (twitter, facebook, texting) and provides TMI about a lot of things (I don't need to know your dog just pooped #dogcrap), all of that does not allow for real communication on a deep level. Emotional intimacy is not developed and maintained through emoticons.


Very true again. People can't seem to communicate the important stuff, but they feel a desire to share their every little action on a public forum. I don't need to know, or care, that your toilet is fixed and what caused it to break down in the first place.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

southbound said:


> I think that nails it. I'm 45, and the information that i have been exposed to since coming here is unreal. It left me scratching my head many times. I would think, "Really? I was supposed to do that in a marriage" or "I didn't know that was a big deal." I thought love and a little common sense was supposed to take care of a marriage. Boy, was I wrong!


My reaction to a lot of this place has been the exact opposite. There's more pathologizing normal human behavior here than anywhere except maybe a professional psychology board. I mean, what did we do as a species before the advent of the counseling session and the self help book? 

Don't get so hung up on being perfect. Just try to be good. All that really takes is desire, a most basic sensitivity, and a decent soul. If you're actively working every single day on improving your marriage, you'll burn out long before you get to enjoy it.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> Because many people don't know how to converse.
> Statements like " You never .... ", You always...." , when complaining, lack of positive affirmations, lack of patience to listening to what the other has to say, tiredness after work, always in a rush, taking each other for granted, labeling their wish to discuss relationship as annoying clingy type talk, etc...all these are big mistakes. Then couple wake up one day in the M counselor's office, look at each other and barely can start talking, because they forgot how to do such thing. They forgot how to communicate.
> 
> Thanks to TAM , I improved my already good relationship. I let go of some people and habits that I realized were toxic since being on here. I learnt to improve communication, and found some great relationship books that every couple should read.
> Don't wait until you're in trouble to read those books. Read them while still happy and going strong, to better preserve what you have instead of fixing it when broken.


A great observation, _we forget to communicate_ if we don't keep doing it.

The question is then: how to practice on a regular/daily basis, what are good guidelines? 
How to check if you are functional and sensitive in your communications?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

southbound said:


> I think that nails it. I'm 45, and the information that i have been exposed to since coming here is unreal. It left me scratching my head many times. I would think, "Really? I was supposed to do that in a marriage" or "I didn't know that was a big deal." I thought love and a little common sense was supposed to take care of a marriage. Boy, was I wrong!
> 
> Where was i supposed to get all this information when I needed it? Was I supposed to be reading relationship books at age 16? Even if I had, I doubt I would have believed most of it at the time.
> 
> ...


On the personal finance area I hear/read often the same. 

The most important things to your life are NOT taught in school, everybody has to find out struggling through life for their own.

Maybe we only learn from our mistakes on these very important area's, but I still wonder why the important stuff is not taught in schools....


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Trust and honesty have been mentioned. I think it takes some vulnerability and, a level of confidence too. Our communication has improved a lot over the last few years. My husband is more open with me than he's before. I'm aware to do the same; or trying to at least!

Met husband's colleagues at a function recently. He introduced me to one of his female colleagues, seemed like a lovely person, very attractive. I think we all enjoy being around attractive people. Her and I were exchanging the usual introductory small talk when my husband, ahem, turns to her and suggests she tells me about how she got to be where she is. She shyly laughed it off, so instead he ended up enthusiastically sharing how she'd studied while the company had kept her on and then how she got the role. Okay, props to her. At that point, I could feel my "this is uncool Batman" signal going off. I was polite and smiled. 

On the way home, I calmly said "It's not cool with me that you bragged about another woman, let alone bragged about her to your wife. That's just not cool with me, Batman." I didn't question whether it was right or not. I'm trying not to do that anymore. It's how I felt and that's what mattered and that's what I expressed. I stated it calmly. He was shocked as it wasn't his intention to brag about her. He'd thought it was great the company had done that. He acknowledged how I felt, said it wasn't his intention, and he just didn't think. I made it clear how I felt. Then we moved on.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

We had an argument recently. We're friends with another couple and the husband is encouraging the guys for a big night out, including strip clubs. Aside from a special occasion, I'm not really down with that. Sure, others might not see what the big deal is but I'm caring less about that and more about what feels right with me and then expressing that. He was saying it was about bonding with the guys and not so much about the strip club. There's no issue with him going out with his buddies but I don't think "bonding" needs to end late at night in a strip club. The other guys are in their 40s, also married. He pushed me as to what my issue was with it and it escalated to me saying that I didn't feel a married man close to 40 had any business going to a strip club, and especially when it's not something I'm comfortable with. Have I mentioned before that he's stubborn? We both dug our heels in and then other sh*t was raised too. 

What a party poop I am! 

Throw tomatoes if you must; it's how I feel. We didn't resolve that one.

Except... said friend has since invited him out. I have a work function that night. Hubs texted and asked if he was invited to my work event. I replied no, he wasn't. He said he was going out with those guys then. I replied okay. He knew how I felt. I didn't raise it again. Then he surprised the hell out of me. Said how about this, I'll meet the guys early for dinner and a pint then after your work event, you and I meet up and carry on just the two of us instead. I told him I'd love that. He replied "Me too".


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> *Met husband's colleagues at a function recently. He introduced me to one of his female colleagues, seemed like a lovely person, very attractive. I think we all enjoy being around attractive people. Her and I were exchanging the usual introductory small talk when my husband, ahem, turns to her and suggests she tells me about how she got to be where she is. She shyly laughed it off, so instead he ended up enthusiastically sharing how she'd studied while the company had kept her on and then how she got the role. Okay, props to her. At that point, I could feel my "this is uncool Batman" signal going off. I was polite and smiled. *


Interestingly, I have made this exact mistake with my wife at social functions, and I know other men who did and the result was the same. " Uncool Batman, very _not-cool ._"

I thing men can be challenged in that way sometimes .

The female friend politely laughs off his suggestion and he decides to go through with the bragging anyway.
I my case , I was actually trying trying to impress my wife about the type of people I knew, lol!
But the other woman sensed danger ahead and I in my exuberance didn't pick up the signal. 
That led to an argument afterwards.
But what I realized , not for the first time in our relationship , was that there are different _vantage points_ in every situation and the ensuing disagreement is not always a matter of right or wrong.
Sometimes it's a matter of perception and feelings at the moment.

In the end she asked to to switch roles and put myself in her shoes. 
Then I saw it from her vantage point and realized exactly how she felt.
I apologized.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I think people put way too much value in verbal communication. I used to be open and honset with my EX husband thinking that I could share my concerns with him, my confidant. What a mistake that was. When ever you could use what I said against me, he would.

for example, I expressed concern about the wife of one of his friends. She proved in a matter of months to be one huge problem for us (long story). But my ex H told me that since I had confided in him about my concerns, he felt that he needed to up his sycophancy factor with her to compensate.

I have also found quite often that being open and honest about what you like/ don't like; find acceptable /unacceptable can encourage others to do the exact opposite of what you ask for.

I find it interesting that therapists will say "Did you make yourself what you wanted, etc?" First of all, it's interesting that they ask a close ended question. Of course, you are going to say yes, but then after you do, it seems that they shut down. They have no more tools in their tool kit for you."

I find I get better results when I don't have that open dialogue. For example, my sister, my mother and exbf, all have /had that habit of constantly finding cutesy alternative names for things and even people. Of course, you can't accuse them of purposely getting it wrong because no matter how many times that they hassle you for the right name or way to say something, they inevitable get it wrong again. So now I've learned not to get involved.

Just recently my mother was telling me about a trip she took. She asked me the correct pronunciation of the name of the country she went to. Wtf? By the second round, I simply said "well, they did they pronounce." the silence was so palpable. But she also stopped asking me throughout that conversation.

I wished I had learned some of these communication techniques a long time ago.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

T&T said:


> Another reason people avoid honest communication is because they don't want to hurt their spouse.
> 
> Our marriage was broken and the only way I could see it getting any better was through brutally honest, open communication. It was difficult, feelings were hurt with many sleepless nights. By being totally honest, we were able to rebuild the marriage. I just don't see any other way to do it.
> 
> It takes two though and if one spouse holds back, forget it...


Could you tell us what you had to tell your wife that was so hurtful? That she couldn't clean house; that she needed to lose weight.

What was so hurtful that you had to tell her to imporve your marriage with her?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Cletus said:


> My reaction to a lot of this place has been the exact opposite. There's more pathologizing normal human behavior here than anywhere except maybe a professional psychology board. I mean, what did we do as a species before the advent of the counseling session and the self help book?


I wouldn't say you have a totally opposite reaction; a lot of the stuff here leaves me scratching my head. I never heard of a lot of this stuff before coming here, nor did I realize it mattered. 

What did people do before counseling and self-help books? I don't know. Maybe a little ignorance is good. I don't think my grandmothers held my grandfathers to the same standard as today, because they didn't know they were supposed to.

My grandmothers were ignorant enough to think a decent, hard-working, kind man was a good catch. They didn't categorize him as alpha or beta, nor were they aware that they were supposed to be unhappy because he didn't plan surprise vacations or go all out on special occasions. Yet, they both were together for 50+ years of marriage. If they had only known about all the stuff they should have been miserable about, they could have bailed out a lot sooner like my x wife did.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Interestingly, I have made this exact mistake with my wife at social functions, and I know other men who did and the result was the same. " Uncool Batman, very _not-cool ._"
> 
> I thing men can be challenged in that way sometimes .
> 
> ...


In his case, he was bragging about the culture of his new work place ...to me. But that's not how I saw it. He also apologized and recognized how it came across; would have been oblivious otherwise!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

southbound said:


> I wouldn't say you have a totally opposite reaction; a lot of the stuff here leaves me scratching my head. I never heard of a lot of this stuff before coming here, nor did I realize it mattered.
> 
> What did people do before counseling and self-help books? I don't know. Maybe a little ignorance is good. I don't think my grandmothers held my grandfathers to the same standard as today, because they didn't know they were supposed to.
> 
> My grandmothers were ignorant enough to think a decent, hard-working, kind man was a good catch. They didn't categorize him as alpha or beta, nor were they aware that they were supposed to be unhappy because he didn't plan surprise vacations or go all out on special occasions. Yet, they both were together for 50+ years of marriage. If they had only known about all the stuff they should have been miserable about, they could have bailed out a lot sooner like my x wife did.


yes, that's true our standards have changed. Given that child AND wife beating were perfectly legal and acceptable at one time, aren't you glad that standards have changed? 

I think a lot in history has been suppressed in literature, film and even in history books. I saw _Django Unchained_ and realised how Hollywood romanticses pre Civil War slavery by showing Mammy in the kitchen or better still in the dining room as if slave owners were some kind of benevolent sponsors giving a group of people a job. You have to dig for the accounts of constant torture and punishment. 

And I think it's the same with marriage. We're shielded from some of the uglier practices that went on with spouses and children. IT wasn't until the1970s that child abuse and child sexual abuse were considered crimes.

I remember the last few years that my grandmother was alive my grandfather was so verbally abusive to her. They would have been married for about 70 years by the time she died. I felt so bad whenever I witnessed but I was much younger. My father he tried talking to his father about it but he said my grandfather acted as if he was doing nothing wrong.

So if you think life before the self help movement was ideal, dream on. It may be possible that the self help movement gained currency because of the interpersonal problems that were prevalent for centuries.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> In his case, he was bragging about the culture of his new work place ...to me. But that's not how I saw it. He also apologized and recognized how it came across; would have been oblivious otherwise!


It does sound as if your husband just missed on this occasion. But he needed to know how it sounded. Not just to you but to others like his co-workers who may think that an EA is already in progress.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> He pushed me as to what my issue was with it and it escalated to me saying that I didn't feel a married man close to 40 had any business going to a strip club, and especially when it's not something I'm comfortable with. Have I mentioned before that he's stubborn? We both dug our heels in and then other sh*t was raised too.
> 
> What a party poop I am!
> 
> ...


Communication is not always agreement. He definitely listened to you and acted on it later which shows his priorities and respect for you and your marriage. This is what communication is about; altering future actions in accordance with new information. Agreement on what is right or the best is not necessary though it is desired. Good marital communication must include a resolution that benefits the marriage not necessarily either spouses view. The fact that you didn't judge him and repected it was his decision probably helped him make the choice that he thought you would prefer.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> In his case, he was bragging about the culture of his new work place ...to me. But that's not how I saw it. He also apologized and recognized how it came across; would have been oblivious otherwise!


Exactly! Unless we state our feelings and thoughts we will never be able to communicate. And even if the spouses communicate it doesn't mean that the same messages goes to other people. 

This last new years my wife and I were at a party enjoying the company of people we hadn't seen in years. One of them is a writer and wanted to learn about climbing so I mentioned there was a friend of mine who was a real hot climber that could help with it. My wife understood that I meant hot as referring to her ability not her looks so she translated for me and said he means she's a really great climber. When my wife said that I realized that I had inadvertently given the wrong message to the group which was not my intent. So with an assist from my wife the quality of her climbing became the focus and the proper context was understood.

Sometimes we say or do things that just don't come out right. We can't be afraid to step in and make it known. That's what you did after the fact which will help him avoid it in the future. My wife took the immediate route which caused me to look super embarrassed which helped everyone understand that's not what I meant.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> yes, that's true our standards have changed. Given that child AND wife beating were perfectly legal and acceptable at one time, aren't you glad that standards have changed?
> 
> I think a lot in history has been suppressed in literature, film and even in history books. I saw _Django Unchained_ and realised how Hollywood romanticses pre Civil War slavery by showing Mammy in the kitchen or better still in the dining room as if slave owners were some kind of benevolent sponsors giving a group of people a job. You have to dig for the accounts of constant torture and punishment.
> 
> ...


You are correct. There are always so many different aspects of everything. No two or a hundred situations are exactly the same. 

In my parents and grandparents situations, however, there was no wife beating, verbal abuse, or child abuse. There was also no mid-life crisis, dwelling on alpha or beta, or any nonsense of that nature to drive a wedge in a marriage; just average people trying to lead a normal life. I know average is a dirty word today, bit I often wonder, where have all the average people gone?

This song does a great job with "Where Have All the Average people Gone?"

Roger Miller-Where Have All the Average People Gone Cover (Scott Avett version) - YouTube


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> Communication is not always agreement. He definitely listened to you and acted on it later which shows his priorities and respect for you and your marriage. *This is what communication is about; altering future actions in accordance with new information. Agreement on what is right or the best is not necessary though it is desired. Good marital communication must include a resolution that benefits the marriage not necessarily either spouses view. The fact that you didn't judge him and repected it was his decision probably helped him make the choice that he thought you would prefer.*


I really like this^^^ post.

One of the things I learned many years ago, even before I was married was a saying that went;

" _The road to hell is paved with good intentions_.."

I believe that even if a person's intent was genuine and laudable, they are still responsible for the effect/ consequence of their action if it goes bad. My reason for saying this is simple. 

If their words or action were taken in good spirit , a timely statement well received, humour well executed and enjoyed by everyone ,a thought provoking comment / observation that brings the desired result , they would take full responsibility / praises for it.

But somehow people don't like taking responsibility when things go wrong. We like to pass the buck , blameshift. We jump on our high horses and talk down to our partners, instead of seeking understanding through common ground.

So, in Heartsbeating's husband's case [ and myself also ],one out of two things could have happened.

*1]* He could have listened to her perspective , explain what was his intention and apologize, which thankfully, he did.
*2]* Or, he could have gotten upset, accuse her of deliberately misconstruing his actions and escalate the argument , which thankfully he didn't do.

Option *[ 1]*, both win.
Option *[ 2]*, both loose.

Had he taken the second option and escalated the argument, chances are that he would have won, because she cannot realistically prove his intentions were bad. He probably might have won the argument , but the " victory" would have been pyrrhic. The cost of his " victory" being the feeling of resentment , instead of her feeling understood by him.
In any event , if the dynamic of a relationship is one where there are
" winners & losers ", then both parties need to hit the reset button, 
_Together_.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> *Sometimes we say or do things that just don't come out right. We can't be afraid to step in and make it known. *


Exactly.


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## being the best me (Apr 25, 2011)

People need to listen and let the person know that the other is heard. the they need to talk openly about the feeling being present in the context of the conversation.


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## being the best me (Apr 25, 2011)

In a relationships there shouldn't be winners and losers or compromise, because someone's feeling will get hurts.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> So, in Heartsbeating's husband's case [ and myself also ],one out of two things could have happened.
> 
> *1]* He could have listened to her perspective , explain what was his intention and apologize, which thankfully, he did.
> *2]* Or, he could have gotten upset, accuse her of deliberately misconstruing his actions and escalate the argument , which thankfully he didn't do.
> ...


I agree, the price of failing to communicate is resentment. And the problem is because of a lack of communication you won't know how big the resentment has grown until its too late. 

So definitely option 2 is the long term play...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

meson said:


> Communication is not always agreement. He definitely listened to you and acted on it later which shows his priorities and respect for you and your marriage. This is what communication is about; altering future actions in accordance with new information. Agreement on what is right or the best is not necessary though it is desired. Good marital communication must include a resolution that benefits the marriage not necessarily either spouses view. The fact that you didn't judge him and respected it was his decision probably helped him make the choice that he thought you would prefer.


I was thinking of this thread.

My husband has since gone out with the guys...and sure enough, kept his date with me after dinner. It was really great. 

He'd also since been invited to a Bachelor party. I didn't say anything about this. They played sport during the day, had a few drinks, and then he came home at that point in the evening when some call it a night and the others kick-on for a big night out. He came home so we could have dinner together. I told him I loved that. It's all I said. And he replied, "Well, I hear you and I want you to know that."


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