# Some one please read and help me I am out of options



## jar

This is my first post but to don’t know what else to do.

My wife and I have been together for 10 years 4 of which we have been married. We met in college she was only 18 at the time. We have grown up together. We have had a wonderful relationship and marriage. We have been very fortunate with great jobs a nice house, and wonderful positions. 

Sure things haven’t been prefect and mistakes were made along the way but we always got through them. I haven’t been a perfect husband and she hasn’t been a perfect wife. At times all kinds of things have gotten in the way of our mirage and relationship. Like school work and family.

In December I found out my wife has been having an affair with a coworker. It devastated me. I felt my wife had been in a depressive slump for a long time and we had drifted apart some. I knew they were friends and was ok with that because I trusted her. Well one thing has lead to anther and an affair has happened. They both have a love for one anther.

When I found out I found us individual counselors and marriage consoling. In the coming months from December we really had a lot of ups and downs because she wasn’t letting go of the affair. We would go several weeks and she would want out of the married and then we would go anther few where she wanted back in. It was killing me.

Long story short she left for 2 weeks to live in a hotel. During that time there was very little communication. 2 weeks later she came home and sincerely told me she loved me and was jumping back in with both feet to work on things and see where things go. The affair was over. This was 2 months ago. Since then so I thought we were gaining traction and our counselors were really helping us along we were reconnecting and beginning to have fun again. We were working on things. We both made a lot of changes for one anther.

The thing that has been off is the affection she would pull away from me when we would hug or hold hands. We haven’t had sex in several months and I can’t even remember the last time we kissed. This bothered mea lot because we always have been affectionate towards one another but I was being patent and she had explained she was not ready for these things.

When I try and do nice things for her the things that make her feel special she feels guilty but on the same token when I don’t do them it makes her feel unloved. It is an impossible dilemma. Through all this I have been really supportive and gotten mad very few time. I have continually let her know I am here and we can get through this etc. People have told me I really have gone above and beyond. I have done this because I love her deeply and don’t want to loose her. I have done this is hopes of having her love me again.

Well Thursday night she dropped the bomb on me. The affair is still going strong she never stopped seeing him or talking to him. Even while I was away for business she was going behind my back. She had my full trust once again and like I said things with us really had been moving in a positive direction. I am in complete shock.

Even as she told me that the affair continues I didn’t get mad. I tried to hug her and tell her we can still get through this. 

She feels guilty and says I deserve a better person. One of our big issues is she feel lonely much of the time and unconnected to me. I have tried to changes this by working less and changing my hours and really just being there for her. She is a afraid to spend the next 50 years lonely and unhappy with me. She says that some times she just wishes I would go.

Friday I got mad and left. I packed my bags the dog and her things and left for my parent’s house. I was emotional but explained I couldn’t not be around her while this was going on. I was also hoping this would make her wake up and smell the coffee

I feel devastated and wrong and hypocritical because I said I would be the last to go and end things. 

Tonight we are supposed to meet at home. I know what she is going to tell me. It is over for her. It is clear in her actions and what she says to me.

The affair has been out in the open for a while now friends family and co workers know about it.

I just don’t know what to do or have any plan. 2 months ago I thought she would never come home. I have tried so hard to get her to fall in love with me and continue with this marriage. But I feel the end is near. Is there anything I can say or do? Or is it time to just let go? I guess I know the answer but I’m trying to find a small piece of hope some where in all of this. Did I do the right thing in leaving or did I make it worse. My counselor says it was the right thing and that I need to take care of me. I love this woman so much it hurts and all I want to do is love her and be there for her. It just want to take care of her and have an amazing marriage and life with her.

I am so sad this is happening 
Thanks for reading
jar


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## bestplayer

jar said:


> This is my first post but to don’t know what else to do.
> 
> My wife and I have been together for 10 years 4 of which we have been married. We met in college she was only 18 at the time. We have grown up together. We have had a wonderful relationship and marriage. We have been very fortunate with great jobs a nice house, and wonderful positions.
> 
> Sure things haven’t been prefect and mistakes were made along the way but we always got through them. I haven’t been a perfect husband and she hasn’t been a perfect wife. At times all kinds of things have gotten in the way of our mirage and relationship. Like school work and family.
> 
> In December I found out my wife has been having an affair with a coworker. It devastated me. I felt my wife had been in a depressive slump for a long time and we had drifted apart some. I knew they were friends and was ok with that because I trusted her. Well one thing has lead to anther and an affair has happened. They both have a love for one anther.
> 
> When I found out I found us individual counselors and marriage consoling. In the coming months from December we really had a lot of ups and downs because she wasn’t letting go of the affair. We would go several weeks and she would want out of the married and then we would go anther few where she wanted back in. It was killing me.
> 
> Long story short she left for 2 weeks to live in a hotel. During that time there was very little communication. 2 weeks later she came home and sincerely told me she loved me and was jumping back in with both feet to work on things and see where things go. The affair was over. This was 2 months ago. Since then so I thought we were gaining traction and our counselors were really helping us along we were reconnecting and beginning to have fun again. We were working on things. We both made a lot of changes for one anther.
> 
> The thing that has been off is the affection she would pull away from me when we would hug or hold hands. We haven’t had sex in several months and I can’t even remember the last time we kissed. This bothered mea lot because we always have been affectionate towards one another but I was being patent and she had explained she was not ready for these things.
> 
> When I try and do nice things for her the things that make her feel special she feels guilty but on the same token when I don’t do them it makes her feel unloved. It is an impossible dilemma. Through all this I have been really supportive and gotten mad very few time. I have continually let her know I am here and we can get through this etc. People have told me I really have gone above and beyond. I have done this because I love her deeply and don’t want to loose her. I have done this is hopes of having her love me again.
> 
> Well Thursday night she dropped the bomb on me. The affair is still going strong she never stopped seeing him or talking to him. Even while I was away for business she was going behind my back. She had my full trust once again and like I said things with us really had been moving in a positive direction. I am in complete shock.
> 
> Even as she told me that the affair continues I didn’t get mad. I tried to hug her and tell her we can still get through this.
> 
> She feels guilty and says I deserve a better person. One of our big issues is she feel lonely much of the time and unconnected to me. I have tried to changes this by working less and changing my hours and really just being there for her. She is a afraid to spend the next 50 years lonely and unhappy with me. She says that some times she just wishes I would go.
> 
> Friday I got mad and left. I packed my bags the dog and her things and left for my parent’s house. I was emotional but explained I couldn’t not be around her while this was going on. I was also hoping this would make her wake up and smell the coffee
> 
> I feel devastated and wrong and hypocritical because I said I would be the last to go and end things.
> 
> Tonight we are supposed to meet at home. I know what she is going to tell me. It is over for her. It is clear in her actions and what she says to me.
> 
> The affair has been out in the open for a while now friends family and co workers know about it.
> 
> I just don’t know what to do or have any plan. 2 months ago I thought she would never come home. I have tried so hard to get her to fall in love with me and continue with this marriage. But I feel the end is near. Is there anything I can say or do? Or is it time to just let go? I guess I know the answer but I’m trying to find a small piece of hope some where in all of this. Did I do the right thing in leaving or did I make it worse. My counselor says it was the right thing and that I need to take care of me. I love this woman so much it hurts and all I want to do is love her and be there for her. It just want to take care of her and have an amazing marriage and life with her.
> 
> I am so sad this is happening
> Thanks for reading
> jar


my friend you have done the right thing . You trusted her but she kept lying to you . Now you need to stop being clingy & needy & tell her it is over . She can never be attracted to a man who can't stand up for himself & keep accepting her crap .

*Even as she told me that the affair continues I didn’t get mad. I tried to hug her and tell her we can still get through this.*
so that means you are again willing to let her treat you as doormat .

*She feels guilty and says I deserve a better person.*
tell her to keep that crap to herself ....that is just an act 

The more you beg ,plead & convince her to come back , lesser is the possibility of her coming back .
Be a man , ask her to get rid of her lover or you will get rid of her right now .

Best of luck


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## iamnottheonlyone

As I am in an earlier stage than you. I don't think I can give you any end game advise. Because it ain't over until its over. Bestplayer may be sounding a bit mean, but he is largely on point. Begging, pleading and convincing won't work. (The other three things not to do are panic, threaten or manipulate). It is ABSOLUTELY no surprise that she didn't quit her lover. She is an addict. He is her drug. Since you are still together she NEEDS something from you. You are giving something to her she likes. If she is talking tonight you need to JUST listen. Pay attention. Don't believe the words coming out of her mouth. She is in a fog. Don't convince. Stay on your topic. Stay calm, consistent and firm. "I love you. I am committed to our marriage". 
I am only in my 5th week of separation/finding out about the affair. Many, many people, here and in person have told me not to quit. And I am not. I am making zero progress. I couldn't see she has been her way out the door for 3 or 4 years. I have been told most of these affairs will collapse within 6 months if they ride themselves out. I could be in for even a longer time of holding on. With that vision and understanding there is no magic bullet I have more patience. All of these are rollercoaster rides. All the betrayers continue or try to continue the affair. Hunker down or move on. Read my thread and see my short ride. Hurt and more hurt, that is what we get. Unlike most men, women find that can only sustain a relationship with one man. So if you can better understand how you should treat her and hang in there you have a good chance of being the last man standing.


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## jar

I think you are both right and thank you for replying. 

I am leaving in a few minutes to meet up with her and I am reasonable certain I know how the conversation will go. 

I know I have a bit more fight in me and know that this is going to be my finale stand. Many of my friends have given me the same advice. It is time for me to leave and be firm and concise about why. I keep telling myself that I can do this and I am prepared to detach and split everything in our life.

I keep asking my self why do I want her back after so much damaged has occurred. The only reason I can come up with is because she is my wife and I love her. 

Jar


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## Blue Moon

Listen to what she has to say but be prepared to say your goodbyes. There is absolutely zero reason for you to stay with her after she's cheated multiple times. By staying, you're letting her know that it's OK for her to sneak around and have sex with another man because you'll always be the "good guy" at home fixing dinner and giving her a comfortable life while she comes home smelling like some other man's cologne. Get tested, find a good attorney and move on.


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## jar

Well I met my wife at home last night. 

She didn’t have much to talk about so I told her she needed to end the affair for ever. No contact and never see him again.

I apologized for my past actions and short comings and the way that I made her feel.

I told her I was no longer supporting her or speaking to her and that our counselor would now be a mediator for a divorce. I told her I was leaving. I told her end the affair or lose me for ever and that I was prepared to let her go and move on.

I was stern and lectured her. Which she does not like.

She said what about what she wants. She said I want out of the marriage. I told her I do not believe you or you would have not come home 2 months ago. I told her that I have seen you be happy and she said I have only shown you some things. I told her think about what you have said. I told her I have made things very safe and have been open to talk and work on anything and you have not allowed you’re self to let you guard down fully. I told her I have see you become more connected to me then disconnect because she was afraid of things and life going back to the way they were. Afraid to be lonely again.

She is very smart and extremely stubborn and never has been able to admit she is wrong about anything. I hope that she heard me and what I was saying and does not end things out of stubborn pride.

She even asked me to show her how to use the ridding mower because the yard had not been mowed in 2 weeks. I told her I just could not do that or take care of it. It is on you. I did say if it gets real bad call the landscaper. (This was tough to say because I take a lot of pride in my house and my lawn)

During this she shut down pretty bad I asked if she had anything to say she did not. She was crying. I asked if this one of those times I am suppose to be a mind reader or be a night in shinning armor please speak up. She said she had nothing to say. I then said good bye and left she texted me but I did not respond. 

Tomorrow is our regularly scheduled therapy appointment. Should be interesting.

I read through affair care and feel I am round step 5 and 6.

Our family’s and some friends know what’s going on. I do know that co workers know what is going on and are talking about it. I am thinking of calling 2 of her closest friend and fellow coworker and ask for her help and let them know what is going on. Ask them to tell her that an affair is not ok. Ask them to support her if she ends it. Ask them to support her even if the marriage does not work out. 

In the past when she has pulled away from the affair with the co worker he has become even more of a pain in the @#$. I am thinking of asking the friends to encourage her and support her if she pulls away and breaks it off and make it difficult for him to get to her.

So I guess I just sit here and wait and work on my self at this point.

JAR


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## whynot

I think standing your ground is the best choice here... she lied to you when she had the affair, when she said it was over and then lied again when she said it was over... It will take a long time to rebuild trust a third time, if at all possible. If you want to wait for her, that is your choice, but it will be a lonely journey while she is out f-ing this other man... which she aparently has no desire to stop.


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## jar

*I guess my marriage is just turning into another statistic*

Well I guess my marriage is just turning into another statistic.

We met at marriage therapy tonight she stated she wanted a divorce. I again said I don’t believe you. I am in denial. She again reinforced this is what she wanted. She even talked to her family about everything over the weekend and even admitted to them about the affair.

I lost my wife tonight and I am devastated. I think there is no hope left for this marriage. I would have done anything for her. It really hurts to know she doesn’t have the strength or the love for me to persevere through this. It really hurts to know I cause her so much pain and unhappiness. It really hurts to know she can’t picture a happy life with me. It really hurts to think she is choosing to break my heart instead of her affair partners. What bothers me is we never talked about these things in counseling. It bothers me that I am in denial about the answer to these questions.

Conversations after that got ugly and argumentative. I said many things I didn’t mean. I really wish we talked about a few other things. We ended early and I guess the next step is mediation to work this divorce out

I feel like such a fool. I lost my once wonderful wife to anther man. I trusted her and was deceived again. We are going to have to sell our wonderful home our boat and many of our possessions and go or separate ways. My head is hanging low tonight really low. It is tough to image a single life and living alone.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,
You know you tried your best. She probably won't be happy in this new relationship. She is messed up. I got tattooed with "I am done with you" tonight so I know the feeling. I am not drinking or using meds. But find this forum very therapeutic. I leave the tv on when I sleep to distract me. I distract myself with thoughts of doing things I like to do. 
I know my home of 25 years will be gone soon. Luckily I have my son with me. I think I will start looking around to check out the availability of another companion.


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## jar

Today’s not a good day. 

I have spent some time reading post from others and there circumstances. I have read many of the articles at affair care. I have read several books on marriage. My wife has even read more than just friends. I have even read about women who go through a mid life crises when there in there late twenty’s and early thirty’s. 

I think I understand about affairs at this point. I am an intelligent person and so is my wife. Why can’t she get past these feelings she has for me and her affair partner. If you take away some of the drama of our relationship the affair and all the stages and emotions we have been through are almost text book. Also this midlife crises stuff seems to fit. We been to counseling together and individually how come the counselors haven’t been able to call her out on her feelings and emotions and gotten her through these things. They are professionals and got to know exactly what she is going through. I believe that her therapist is excellent and came well recommend. Is my wife being honest with her self? Is what she saying really her truth? Is all these post articles and research true or is it something we all think we understand because we are all trying to figure out why. I have even talked to two people that have gone through similar experiences and they ended regretting leaving after they got it through there system.

I guess I just have to get over her and deal with myself for now on.

JAR


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## jessi

hi there jar, 
what you have to remember is she is still in the affair fog we all talk about, right now you can't convince her of anything....
let the affair play out and see what happens, most of them don't work out when real life sets in.......
You can always just tell her that if she ever finds herself in a place of regret and if you are still available you would be willing to give it another try.....
Work on being the best you can be now......take care of your health and start enjoying life as it comes to you.....
You can't change someone else you can only control what you do and think.....
Maybe it won't be a bed of roses for her and she will realize what a mess she has made of her life.....
You can always remarry .....friends of mine just did after a couple of years apart.......better than ever now.....
Life is to short to not live it......with or without her.......it can be and will be good again.....in time....
((((hugs)))))))


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## jar

Well last night I sent her an email that basically said are you sure of this. She responded with a lot of excuses like the only way for us to stop hurting is to go our separate ways. I will always have one foot in and one foot out of this marriage and it is no way to live and its not fair.... blah blah blah 

For me they are just excuses and not the truth. Just excuses that justify things for her. Just excuses not trusting things can be better. I am a little bitter tonight. But doing ok

A close friend and mentor of mine told me that all of the issues and problems lie within her at this point. They are deep problems that have been there her whole life issues that were there before we even met. He also told me that the part that makes you worried and scared is the way she went about things. She went about things in a dishonest way. She was dishonest with me and most of all her self. He said the only thing I can hope for is she admits her problems to herself and then works on them. Otherwise she will bring the same issues to the table again in anther relationship. He said at this point the problem is within her and not me. I found some comfort in this. I have also heard the same thing from many other people my friend just explained in a way that I understood. 

Jessi your words are very kind and I know what you are saying is the truth and what I need todo. I have opened up to many people in the past few months about this and they all tell me the same thing. It is just hard to think this way when one second you’re driving home in tears and the next second you are angry. 

JAR


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## wifeinlove

Jar, 

Im really sorry for what you are going through. I agree with other posters here- its time to focus on yourself. You've done everything possible to save your marriage. You fought, when Im sure many others would have given up. Its very commendable, and you can rest knowing you tried your best.

THe hardest lesson Ive had to learn in life is- at the end of the day, people have their choices to make and will suffer the consequences of those choices. And those who loved them, have to sit back and watch. Also, I've learnt that true change needs to come from within... or else it just doesnt last.

You have some tough days ahead of you. Days when you feel things are just falling apart. Its all a part of the grieving process. When I found out my husband was cheating the entire marriage- I was devastated and couldnt function. So i'd like to pass on some advice that helped me through the tough times.

1. Get yourself some support. Surround yourself by people that care about you, and get into regular counselling.
2. Take up something you enjoy- . Its time to start that hobby you always wanted to do.
3. Be Active. Exercise is a great way to relieve stress.
3. Plan your day, set goals. there were days where I wouldnt eat and Id hours would disappear and I still have no idea where they went. So, I started setting practical goals about things I needed to that day eg eat breakfast before 10am.
4. Get out make new friends, if you are ready for that. I felt really isolated because most of our friends were mutual.... and I enjoyed just making new friends who didnt know him.
5. Dont be too hard on yourself. Give yourself time to grieve.
6. Take things a day at time. Get through one day at a time.

All the best... you are not alone.


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## flatterpuss

Hi there Jar, 

there's already been quite a lot of great advice here, so I just want to wish you the best of luck - and don't tell her you don't believe that she wants out of the marriage, just walk away.

As bestplayer said, don't be her doormat. And be a man and either walk away or tell her to stop for good.

he won't respect you for the way you're handling it, and worse still, you may not respect yourself. 

Stop holding on to your need for certainty - and take a plunge and grow, give to yourself and her and end it or face the fact that your wife and you don't have the same passion you once had.

It can be rekindled though, but you'd need to step up and be more of a man. Now is your chance to. 

blessings Jar


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## jar

wifeinlove said:


> Jar,
> 
> 
> THe hardest lesson Ive had to learn in life is- at the end of the day, people have their choices to make and will suffer the consequences of those choices. And those who loved them, have to sit back and watch. Also, I've learnt that true change needs to come from within... or else it just doesnt last.


wifeinlove this is the hardest part for me. I have never been much of the type to sit back and watch in any aspect of my life. I know what you say is true change has to come within.
It is so hard to sit back and watch the person you love the most do this to themselves and you. I just want to help her through this but cant. She has to do it. I am just coming to terms with this. I wish it didn’t have to be this way.

At this point I have left and moved myself and the dog back home to my family’s house. I never thought I would ever end up back in my childhood room. At the moment I don’t have much of a plan other than I plan to have virtually no communication with her. She is the one that will have to call the mediation people and file for the divorce. I don’t plan on being much of a help during this process of splitting things up it is on her to do it all if this is what she wants. I think all my faith and hope in her is just about gone at this point.

Thank you everyone for the support and the advice it is helping
Jar


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## jar

So the wife copied me on an email she sent to a person that does mediation. She explained to this person she wants to get a divorce. I really don’t want this at all. I have not responded to any of her messages and I don’t think I will at this she is getting the silent treatment. 

At this point all I want is 50% of everything and the possessions I want. I also have the mind set of if she wants this divorce she is going to have to do everything. I am doing it and will not contribute in helping do anything right down to packing and selling the house. She is not the assertive type and doesn’t handle these things well. I want to know if she has the strength and courage to do this. I guess I am hoping she comes around. That is my feeling tonight. I am also not planning on speaking to her or seeing her at this point. Am I just being a child at this point? Is it ok to do this or am I being a [email protected]*% head and should all this be a partnership. I don’t feel like it should be I don’t live there she wants out b/c of this affair and I don’t want this to happen.

So what is mediation all about? She is saying divorce at this point and not separation. How does this work. I guess I better read up on things and prepare myself.

JAR


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## turnera

Mediation is her way of not having to pay for a lawyer.

Have you called her work yet and told their boss that two of their employees are carrying on an affair at their company?


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## jessi

It seems like she has made up her mind about wanting out of the marriage, email her back tell her if this is her decision and not what you had planned for your life that she could take care of filing and working out an agreement that will make both of you happy......
Let her feel the stress of all of that by herself.....
Let her feel the stress of every day life without you...
Let her know if she has anything to say to you to do it through a mediator of your choice(a friend, family member)
Don't talk or support her in anyway.....let things just fall apart for her and her affair man.....
Work on being the best you can be, exercise, go out with friends and family.......just enjoy being with your kids.....
Go get some councelling for yourself.......and pray that some day she will see what she has given up and maybe come crawling back to you and the kids.....
I'm sorry she is being so hurtful right now.....ignore that, remember the wife you knew has been taken over by the foggy affair wife that is heartless and selfish......


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,
The thing that has helped me most is to take the long view. No magic bullet. You have read enough. You know how this happens and how it plays out. Time is on your side. Remember everything she says in the fog is crap. Take none of it as truthful. And when it comes to separation the fact is longer separations have better results. 
Stop talking relationship with her. Say nothing that could be interpreted as begging, pleading or groveling. You are making her feel sorry for you. Did she marry you because you followed her around like a lovesick puppy? I doubt it. She married you because you are a caring , sensitive, handsome, confident man. So show it. Get that chin up. Strut your stuff.


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## jar

Well the wife contacted our realtor today. I am really not sure what to do. I want her to handle it all. I don’t want to speak with her at the moment. It is really painful to think of my house being packed up and sold. When I don’t want to sell or any of this to happen.

I know I can’t show her any emotion at this point. I know I need to be a strong confident person for my self. I know it is nothing more than a business deal between my wife and me now.

I would like to think that there is some hope left at this point but I keep telling my self this is going to happen.

I didn’t make it to work today and slept in till noon. 

Do I need to act caring and sensitive towards her still or do I be the cold hearted business guy that I am and treat this as a business deal.

JAR


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## turnera

Well, if I were you, I would contact my OWN lawyer, and get him to stop her from proceeding.


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## jessi

jar, I agree with tunera, don't leave yourself unprotected....don't let her just decide what is happening to your life, at least agree mutually so your end is protected as well.....Don't talk relationship, just talk deal .........
good luck and be strong, come here to vent instead.......lean on the good people here....


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## Hambo

you have spent a huge portion of your life with this girl. Now your looking at a brand new way of life and that can be extremely scary. Maybe alot of your feelings of wanting to be with her and work it out is your fear of doing things all alone now, starting over. I feel your pain man. I was in your shoes 6 months ago. She said she was done talking to this guy, then i find out a few months later she was still seeing him. Best of luck borhter


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## bestplayer

jar said:


> Well the wife contacted our realtor today. I am really not sure what to do. I want her to handle it all. I don’t want to speak with her at the moment. It is really painful to think of my house being packed up and sold. When I don’t want to sell or any of this to happen.
> 
> I know I can’t show her any emotion at this point. I know I need to be a strong confident person for my self. I know it is nothing more than a business deal between my wife and me now.
> 
> I would like to think that there is some hope left at this point but I keep telling my self this is going to happen.
> 
> I didn’t make it to work today and slept in till noon.
> 
> Do I need to act caring and sensitive towards her still or do I be the cold hearted business guy that I am and treat this as a business deal.
> 
> JAR


jar just curious , may i ask you has she admitted to you that she wants divorce because of this other guy ?


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## jar

turnera

I have not contacted her work. I know many people know what is going on. A fellow co worker told her everyone is talking about the affair and that they hate her for going behind my back. Do you think I should do it.

Hambo

I am really scared to be alone. We have grown up together. I have never really even dated anyone else. This is not what we planed together for a life. This is not what I planed when I got married. We have a whole life house etc that is coming crashing down. I have no desire to sell my nice house and end up in a crappy apartment alone. Doesn’t sound like much of a happy life at this point? It is a huge step back in life.

BestPlayer

She is just saying she wants a divorce. When I say things about the affair or say things like I am being left for this guy she says it isn’t like that. She just shuts down and doesn’t go any further with the details so I don’t know what her plan is with him. She just says I don’t want to be married any more. Based on her actions in the past I have to believe I am being traded in for a new model.

I have begun to make calls to our investment brokers etc to warn them what is going on. They are beginning to take action and police our accounts on my behalf and will worn me of any funny stuff. Next week I will be opening new bank accounts and get my paycheck rerouted to the new accounts.

Still not talking to her at this point no communication maybe next week some time.

I got a hair cut last night. Had to say goodbye to the girl that has been cutting my hair for 5 years. I explained that I had moved out and we were getting a divorce.\ and that I would not be back. Also shaved my goatee off for the first time in 7 years. She was shocked it turns out the wife has an apt with her next week or something. Should be interesting when this gets back to the wife.

So I am trying to keep my head up and not get down to much. I talk to many friends during the day and it helps get me through. Everyone says my next relationship will be more amazing than ever. Today I actually have been thinking what that person might look like and be like. First time in a long time I have thought about this.

JAR


----------



## turnera

The reason I asked about telling her BOSS, not her coworkers, is that many companies will do something to separate the two of them.

IF you want her back, you have to stop the affair first. One way to do that is exposure. Shining light on the affair embarrasses them and makes them wonder if they should continue. You would first tell her family and your family and her best friends. She has most likely been lying to all of them, saying she's been miserable the whole time, you drove her to it, you're a monster, etc. By YOU telling them the truth, her fantasy bubble bursts.

Of course, if you don't want want her, then just move on.


----------



## jar

I desperately want this marriage and her to come back to it 100%

I have outed her to her mother and father at this point. She actually admitted the affair to them last weekend. I also have outed her in detail to her sis and brother in law. I know they are up set with her and having a difficult time with the situation. She was brought up in a loving catholic family. What she is doing is going against her entire up bringing.

My family knows every thing in detail as well. 

My wife is the type that does not have many friends the few that she has I know they know what is going on. They are there to see it. 

Most of my close friends and the people I talk to on regular bases that help me get through the day know what is going on as well. 

I would say at this point it is out there. I have thought about calling the site head where she works and sending an email out to all her co workers. Explain to them what is going on and ask them not to support this behavior.

However I believe it makes me look desperate and it makes me look like I am controlling the situation. I have talked about how invisible I have felt to her affair partner with my therapist on many occasions.

I guess at this point I don’t see how it will change anything. I honestly believe that her co works and management will do nothing. If I do it I don’t think that I will get any satisfaction out of it. In fact I think it would make me feel worst.

That is where I am at today. But I plan to write the letter and talk with my friends and family about this over the next few days and see how I feel. My mom and dad are telling me not to do it.

I really want this marriage

JAR


----------



## bestplayer

jar said:


> I desperately want this marriage and her to come back to it 100%
> 
> I have outed her to her mother and father at this point. She actually admitted the affair to them last weekend. I also have outed her in detail to her sis and brother in law. I know they are up set with her and having a difficult time with the situation. She was brought up in a loving catholic family. What she is doing is going against her entire up bringing.
> 
> My family knows every thing in detail as well.
> 
> My wife is the type that does not have many friends the few that she has I know they know what is going on. They are there to see it.
> 
> Most of my close friends and the people I talk to on regular bases that help me get through the day know what is going on as well.
> 
> I would say at this point it is out there. I have thought about calling the site head where she works and sending an email out to all her co workers. Explain to them what is going on and ask them not to support this behavior.
> 
> However I believe it makes me look desperate and it makes me look like I am controlling the situation. I have talked about how invisible I have felt to her affair partner with my therapist on many occasions.
> 
> I guess at this point I don’t see how it will change anything. I honestly believe that her co works and management will do nothing. If I do it I don’t think that I will get any satisfaction out of it. In fact I think it would make me feel worst.
> 
> That is where I am at today. But I plan to write the letter and talk with my friends and family about this over the next few days and see how I feel. My mom and dad are telling me not to do it.
> 
> I really want this marriage
> 
> JAR


I think in your situation , exposing her affair to her workplace might have adverse affect . I would suggest you not to do it .


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## jar

Bestplayer

I think you are right at this point. I have talked to many friends about exposing things at her office and everyone has told me not to do it. I have thought a lot about it as well and I have decided I am just not willing to go there. 

I am really praying that there is some hope for her and I left some where.

Not having a great day. I am reading Thriving after Divorce again for the second time. 

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar, it will be some time before there is a divorce. Why don't you read about separation? That is your situation. Things could still turn around.
As to the exposure thing. I went all out when I felt I ran out of options. Everyone but work. I think that is a dead end. If talking to friends and family didn't change things, it is very unlikely talking to her boss will. My wife said I was emotionally blackmailing her. I think that having done this and it having no effect, that it may well make it more difficult for my wife to return. She hasn't talked to anyone except her family. She has ignored all her friends. No contact with any of them. 
Bottom line is that there is always hope.


----------



## jar

I am really having a tuff time today. If the wife is home she is normally signed into facebook. I know her parents were with her all weekend so I have been ok. She hasn’t been signed in since noon today. That is when her parents normally leave. I am sure she is with him. It is making me anxious and sick. Just thinking about them together in bed being intimate is making want to cry. They are probably lying next to each other naked telling one anther how much they are in love. It is just making me crazy right now.

A friend of mine told me that what ever I think is going on what ever I have built up in my head is much worse than reality. I hope this is true. I keep telling myself she is at the coffee shop. 

I don’t know what to do to get past these feelings. I wish I had left the dog with her. Then she would have a reason to be home at night.

What I am I suppose to do to get my mind off of things when I get like this.

JAR


----------



## jar

So the wife just texted me

She said sorry for ruining our marriage
I do miss you and annies our dog
I do not expect you to reply 

Then she face booked me and said sorry and I will leave you be
I did respond to the face book but she was already off line 

I said this does not have to happen the choice is yours

Is she f&*&ing with me or what.

JAR


----------



## turnera

She needs you to be strong and loving right now - you love her but you cannot accept another man in the picture. She's welcome home any time, as long as she never contacts OM again. She WILL be transparent to prove to you that she can be trusted, so you can build your trust again. Just keep repeating this. It's what YOU can accept in a marriage. Her choice, but THIS is what you can accept. It makes you look stronger, and she needs that.


----------



## turnera

The objective of exposing at work is to separate the two people. That's all. I would not tell everyone at work. I would tell HR and ask them to separate them. If that does nothing, I would tell his boss, and mention you're looking into lawyers...i.e., who wants to be called in as a material witness in a lawsuit?

I've seen it work both ways. Some places fire the male, some places send him or her to a separate location, some do nothing. But it's an option you can use if she refuses to end the affair after you tell her family what's going on and ask them for help.


----------



## jar

So the realtor just emailed my wife again waiting to set up a meeting with her. 

She replied that she is really busy this week and would set something up for next week.

Just like my wife to procrastinate on this sort of thing. She does not have anything to do. Like I said in a previous post my wife isn’t the type to handle this sort of thing. She can’t even make reservations to our favorite restaurant or make a vet appointment for the dog. 

I don’t know what to make of things. I plan to open a PO Box and new bank account today.

If she proceeds with a meeting with a realtor before any kind of mediation meeting I will have to set her straight and start playing hard ball.

Well that is this morning’s drama
JAR


----------



## turnera

Lots and lots of waywards threaten to divorce, sell, whatever...because it fits in with how they 'feel' regarding their affair. They SAY they are going to do it...but something holds them back.

Most often, it's that they want to cake eat. They get some of their needs met by you, and some met by OM. That's how they feel so good.

So, you can either fight the affair and do a great Plan A (be wonderful), or you can go Plan B and remove yourself from her life and let OM meet ALL her needs - often a great way to bust an affair. Why? Because she only wants him for the 'fun' needs; you're the one who meets her 'necessity' needs. Plan B can show her what he is truly made of.

Have you read Surviving an Affair? It would help a lot to get this all in perspective.


----------



## jar

turna

Thank you for the book recommendation. I picked it up tonight on the way home from work. I really think i have very little hope left in the wife. A mediator has contacted me and she has a realtor appointment set up for next week. I am working on drafting a strong worded plan b letter. I think it might be too late for us. Even if the affair was not going on I wonder if she would still want the divorce. I think she may desire a different type of life. A non married life.

Thanks
JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I was thinking I was on the edge of a Plan B jump. Affaircare recommneded more Plan A. I would say the same for you. 
Your recent posts suggest mixed feelings. You should not be thinking who has the upper hand here. Back off. Be nice. Talk nice. Don't push. When you push, you push her away. You do not talk divorce. 
The images will fade. Stay way from the negative thoughts. There is no magic bullet. These things take time. Are you still telling her that you love her?


----------



## jar

Thank you for the advice. I am trying to keep my head clear and try so hard not to think of negative thoughts. I think I am done with plan A I have been mister loving supportive nice husband guy. Now it is on to plan B especially since she told me she wants a divorce and has a realtor and mediator. I think I am too late even for plan B.

This sucks I feel like I am homeless now. I am glad that work is keeping really busy so I can get my mind off of things. Opened a PO Box today. Tomorrow new checking account.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

It does suck. But understand, you are not in a dead end. Many, many people have been where you are and turned it around. You need to reduce your stress. Read some more of these threads and spend some time responding. It ain't over by a longshot. You won't be homeless. You have plenty of support. Hang in there.


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## jar

iamnottheonlyone

Thank you for the kind words. You are the only one telling me that there is a shred of hope at this point. 

So the new checking, PO Box is open at this point. The plan B letter has been sent with no response from her. The mediator has contacted me about a mediation session. This woman is 200 an hour. Conservatively if the wife goes through with this it will cost between 3 and 5 grand. I can think of a lot of fun things I could do with that kind of money.

Is there any thing else I can do at this point other than wait and keep myself from going insane.

JAR


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## turnera

Read as much as you can about relationships, affairs, etc. Knowledge is power. So are statistics.


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## jessi

hi there jar, 
you have put all you can into place at this point, stick to your guns, you have told her you love her and want to work on the marriage.......
You have separated yourself at the bank and you are now taking good care of yourself......now it's up to her to make the move....
When my husband was in this position, he was free to go, all the details were taken care of.....
He always had some excuse as to why he couldn't find a place and move on with the life he was choosing.....
He over a couple of months of a good Plan A changed his mind...
We still live with the separation agreement that we had drawn up, we now have separated bank accounts, he pays me alimony, this is at my request until I feel comfortable with his commitment to our marriage............he is now okay with this, he said whatever he has to do to make it work for us.....
He is the one that had the affair.
There are no real rules for how and when, even if you separate or divorce, they way I look at it is it's never over.....any decision can be reversed at anytime......
go along with things for now, do a great Plan A and let the affair fall apart on it's own like most of them do.......


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have post-it-notes around the house. They say: Be patient. Think positive. Take the long view. 
Every day I struggle with going on with Plan A. After 6 weeks the pain is seldom overwhelming. It usually comes when something unexpected happens. But reminding myself to be patient and take the long view relieves my anxiety.
I ordered Surviving an Affair last night. Shoud have it in a couple days. Let me know what you think.


----------



## jar

Thanks for the advice. I have been reading surviving an affair. I have only gotten through he first chapter but it is exactly like my situation minus the kids. So far it is a good read.

Had my pay check routed to the new checking account today. 

Haven’t heard from the wife at all. Makes me wonder if she received my plan b letter. I warned her in the letter that if she doesn’t cancel this meeting that I will have to get my lawyer involved. I have heard nothing about it being canceled.

She is normally on face book in the evenings after work. I haven’t seen her on face book since Sunday noon. My guess is she has not been home all week and has been at his apartment all week. Thinking of them together is driving me nuts. Trying to concentrate on my work and not this affair but it is tough. Especially since my commute home to my family’s places is 100 miles. I have a lot of time on my hands.

I wonder if she is living the dream or cracking under the pressure of life and this affair yet. 

This is by far the most terrible thing I have ever gone through.

JAR


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## turnera

{{{jar}}} Time will make things better, no matter how it seems now.


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## jessi

jar, 
I just want to say hang in there, just remember most affairs don't last, let her figure out what real life with the OM will really be like, she will see a lot of things she probably won't like, she will be comparing you to him......weighing out what is her best option.
reality sets in and the fantasy will wear thin........
just keep busy with work and friends and like tunera says time will make a difference.....


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am with you man. I had a meltdown today. I called one of my good friends and he pulled me through it. When you make that 100 mile drive can you talk to a pal during the drive? Is there someone you share this with besides us? You might find it helpful to talk more...grt it out of your system.


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## jar

Jessi and Turnera

Thank you...

Saw the wife on face book for a second tonight. Maybe she is just hiding out at this point. I am trying not to think about it.

I wonder if she wanted a divorce before the affair and her connection with this guy. I guess I have come to realize that she has been really unhappy and I didn’t know it. I just can’t believe she let things get this bad without making me realize how she was feeling.

JAR


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## turnera

Most of us do.


----------



## jar

I made it through chapter two of how to survive an affair last night. 

It is interesting. My wife is definitely in love with this guy and he with her. I have even heard her say the soul mate thing in some conversation we had. The book is interesting because they give you the perspective of all three people.

JAR


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## turnera

Don't forget the chemicals. Humans are biologically built to get chemicals moving, once there's a potential mate in the area. Back in caveman days, it was needed, cos people died off all the time, and you had to keep looking for another mate to keep the species going.

Today, it's kind of a sticky point, because we are 'supposed' to pick just one mate. But those chemicals - call it lust, whatever you want - still keep coming with new people, if you don't affair-proof your marriage and keep them from looking at other people.

So what seems like love is more likely lust. That's why most affairs die off within 3 years; that's how long those chemicals can last with your partner. Then they're gone, and what do you have left?


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## jar

turnera

i hope it is only 3 more days and not 3 years...

I had to call our mediator / lawyer today and address this meeting she has set up with the realtor. I Feel like a jerk..

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,

I am trying to stay positve. Read what Affaircare wrote today for me and a couple others. He could just as well wrote it for you. It is hard to stay positive when this "love another" keeps getting thrown in your face. You and I know the truth, but we can't tell our spouse because they don't want to hear it. When my wife said to me today that we are done (Which I have heard a dozen times) I told her that I am not ready to move on. Then she implied that she was working on divorce. But we hugged twice which we never do. So there still is something there even if she won't admit it. I am not far behind you Jar. I am hoping you can turn your marriage around to give me hope. And I still call her honey.


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## turnera

If you want to fight for her, make it as hard as possible to get separated or divorced. That gives you time for the affair to fall flat.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am into footdragging. I want to see Jar do it big time. Can't meet with the lawyers. Can't meet with the brokers. Too busy. "I don't talk divorce."


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## jar

At this point the mediator has called my wife on her cell, home, and work and emailed her. She has not been able to get a hold of her to discus the realtor meeting with her. I think the wife is hiding out or something. This is not like her.

I really hope that I have made the write decision to separate my self and have no communication with her. It doesn’t seem like it was necessarily the write thing to do. I hope I am not making things worst. I just don’t think there is anything else I can do at this point. She is in love with another guy.

JAR


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## turnera

jar said:


> I read through affair care and feel I am round step 5 and 6.
> 
> Our family’s and some friends know what’s going on. I do know that co workers know what is going on and are talking about it. I am thinking of calling 2 of her closest friend and fellow coworker and ask for her help and let them know what is going on. Ask them to tell her that an affair is not ok. Ask them to support her if she ends it. Ask them to support her even if the marriage does not work out.


Did you ever do this? Did you call the other people? Did you go to her boss and HR and tell them?


----------



## TeaLeaves4

turnera said:


> Mediation is her way of not having to pay for a lawyer.
> 
> Have you called her work yet and told their boss that two of their employees are carrying on an affair at their company?


There is nothing wrong with mediation. Professional mediators often ARE lawyers, but because they're trying to work out an agreement for both parties, they don't pit one spouse against the other the way seperate attorneys often do. Doing that just costs more money and makes things worse between the couple, which isn't good esp. if they have kids they need to co-parent.


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## TeaLeaves4

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I am into footdragging. I want to see Jar do it big time. Can't meet with the lawyers. Can't meet with the brokers. Too busy. "I don't talk divorce."


Is it possible that this attitude could cause irrevocable resentment towards you? 

What if you just called her bluff and act like you want it over with quickly?


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## jar

turnera

Her family many of our friends and my family knows what is going on with the affair at this point. I never did call her boss. I decided I was not willing to do this.

I really haven’t broken the silence for 2 weeks now. I did email her once when I sent my plan b letter. In my plan b letter I explained to her that as long as this affair continues I am unwilling to discuses anything with her or see her unless it is with a therapist or a mediator. I also explained that if the affair is over and she can offer proof of this then I am willing to talk outside of therapy and mediation. 

I am feeling really week right now. I am dying to see her and talk with her. I am dying to move back home. I really want my wife back...This is killing me...We have never gone so long with no communication…I feel like I made a mistake by leaving and saying that I am unwilling to talk…I am trying to stick to my guns but it is tough.

One thing that is on my mind the past few days is this divorce. Am I being left for the other guy and a new relationship or is she so turned off by our marriage she just wants out weather there was an affair going on our not... I am really questioning this. I wish I new what she was thinking right now...

JAR


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## turnera

I, too, wish you hadn't left, but you did, so just move forward, ok?

Regret is the main reason to be really sure you want to Plan B - if you DO go back to her and say you're sorry you did it, and you'll do anything she wants, just take you back...where does that get you? It gives her permission to cheat on you for the rest of your life.

Honestly, you don't want that, do you?

Sure you want her back, but not like this.

I wish I had better to say, but you can't control her, all you can do is carve a new way forward for yourself, hope she notices, and chooses you. If not, you're still carving a good way forward for yourself.


----------



## jar

turnera

I am less angry today at her than I have been the past two weeks. I wish I had the strength to stay and keep working on my A plan. Her opening up to me and admitting the affair to me on her own free will was a big thing. I didn’t realize this till today and of coarse I freaked out and left the next day. This was two weeks ago. I regret what I did and said to her. I just shut her down and disconnected from her. I did the thing I said I wouldn’t do. I just couldn’t take any more from her. I thought the affair was over for more than 2 months...I wish I could have stayed and been strong and shown her all that I have learned on here and in the books. Shown her that I understand what she is going through. She didn’t start talking divorce until a few days after I left.

I texted her tonight telling her that I am think of her.

JAR


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## turnera

Here's the thing: any person who experiences a spouse cheating has everyone's permission - and understanding - to leave the marriage. It is the ULTIMATE sin, regarding marriage. No one will ever judge you for walking away. I told my DH 30 years ago that that instant he ever cheated and I found out, he'd never see me again. Period.

What you do is up to you, solely. 

What really matters is that you can look at yourself in the mirror every morning. Can she say that? I doubt it.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,
You need to hang in there. You need to understand that this may take time. I do feel your pain. The solution is she must face reality. Please take deep breaths and focus on things other than your wife. Get on the phone with you friends and talk about this. You will feel better. She is stalling. Stay strong.


----------



## jar

Thanks for the advice

I have been talking with many friends I also have been working a ton to get my mind off things. I am an engineer and I am heavy into a design project. So it helps for me to focus on something else as much I can. Talking with friends does help also.

I always thought if this ever happened to me I would just walk a way and cut my loses. I still am amazed at myself that I have not completely quit.

JAR


----------



## jar

Well the mediator finally got a hold of my wife. She canceled the realtor meeting today. 

Tomorrow is our first mediator appointment. I am really not looking forward to going at all. I so don’t want to do this.

I am going to try and be as civil as I can at this point.

I guess I am unsure of what I can do to stall things and slow things way down. In the surviving the affair book the trick is to hold out until the affair dies of natural causes. Do I move toward legal separation first? I really don’t want to put the house up for sale yet and I know she will push for it. But if there is some shred of hope here. I don’t want us to be homeless in the long run.

JAR


----------



## turnera

Can you talk to a lawyer before you go? Just to ask if you have any options for stalling?


----------



## jar

turnera

I am having a very hard time getting in touch with my attorney. He is a busy guy. I have called around to a few other firms but they are to busy to deal with my case in any sort of reasonable amount of time. I have also left several messages at a number of other firms and have not received a call back yet. Hopefully my attorney gets back to me today.

JAR


----------



## jar

I am getting nervous for tomorrows meeting. I just talked to my attorney. I found out that the state I live in doesn’t even have a separation period. This divorce could be done in as little as 2 weeks assuming we don’t get into an argument about who gets what.

I think I am screwed. I don’t want this to happen…I want my wife back. I should have never left…Maybe that would have postponed things for a little bit…I am freaking out


----------



## turnera

What happens if you just say you won't show up for mediation?


----------



## jar

I am not sure...that would not be like me not to show.

Should I try to talk to the wife beofre the meeting. Let her know that I am nervouse and dont want to do this.


----------



## turnera

You're talking about your life! Of course you should tell her you don't want to! Why would you do something you don't want to do? Just so she'll be happy? Why? She doesn't care if YOU are happy!

Even if you already said you would go, you are ALLOWED to change your mind. Time to man up, ok?


----------



## jar

I will call her tonight on my way home. Tell her i do not want to do any of this. I also know I cant beg her ether. I just need to tell her what I am feeling.

Jar


----------



## jar

So instead of calling I texted her tonight. Just to test the waters. I know it is not a good way to have a conversation…It didn’t go well.



I explained that I love her and that I don’t want this divorce and I don’t want to go to this meeting tomorrow. I also apologized for my anger and that I regretted some of the things I said and did over the past two weeks.

She said please show up to the meeting

I responded I am just not ready

Then she told me to let her go

I said I didn’t want to do this and that I don’t want this divorce

I asked if we could postpone 

She replied how long I need answers I said a while

She then responded you are not going to change my answer

I then said you are my wife and I am your husband and I am just not ready to face this. I don’t want this

She responded that she doesn’t want to be married any more and that I stated my case a 100 times.


I told her I wasn’t trying to change her mind just trying to express how I feel.

I then said I don’t think I can do this mediation tomorrow, I am not ready and that I may cancel

She said ok and then goodnight.

She was just so cold, not caring, or thoughtful like her old self. She was kind of mean, direct and angry with me. She was like this 2 weeks ago in our counseling session. Totally not like her at all. Especially the past two months.

I think that hope is lost on her. How can I love a woman like this so much? I feel like poop tonight..

We will see what tomorrow brings but I think I am going to cancel our mediation tomorrow. What a way to man up…


----------



## bestplayer

jar said:


> So instead of calling I texted her tonight. Just to test the waters. I know it is not a good way to have a conversation…It didn’t go well.
> 
> 
> 
> I explained that I love her and that I don’t want this divorce and I don’t want to go to this meeting tomorrow. I also apologized for my anger and that I regretted some of the things I said and did over the past two weeks.
> 
> She said please show up to the meeting
> 
> I responded I am just not ready
> 
> Then she told me to let her go
> 
> I said I didn’t want to do this and that I don’t want this divorce
> 
> I asked if we could postpone
> 
> She replied how long I need answers I said a while
> 
> She then responded you are not going to change my answer
> 
> I then said you are my wife and I am your husband and I am just not ready to face this. I don’t want this
> 
> She responded that she doesn’t want to be married any more and that I stated my case a 100 times.
> 
> 
> I told her I wasn’t trying to change her mind just trying to express how I feel.
> 
> I then said I don’t think I can do this mediation tomorrow, I am not ready and that I may cancel
> 
> She said ok and then goodnight.
> 
> She was just so cold, not caring, or thoughtful like her old self. She was kind of mean, direct and angry with me. She was like this 2 weeks ago in our counseling session. Totally not like her at all. Especially the past two months.
> 
> I think that hope is lost on her. How can I love a woman like this so much? I feel like poop tonight..
> 
> We will see what tomorrow brings but I think I am going to cancel our mediation tomorrow. What a way to man up…


 well I think next time ask her face to face what exactly is the reason for her asking for divorce & what makes her act mean , direct and angry with you . 
You need to listen to her ridiculous excuses & if you think it is not fixable & completely bs , tell her to f* off & get rid of her because you would certainly be better off without her . So far you have handled it the best way . You can't stay with a partner who is not willing at all , begging and pleading will never work so dont even think of trying that .


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## iamnottheonlyone

What do you have to gain by going to the mediation? What do you gain by cancelling? You made your point with her. You could not have expected any other response. Ask your lawyer what will happen if you don't participate in the mediation at all.


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## iamnottheonlyone

What is the rush anyway? Does she need the money from the house?


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## jessi

(((hugs))))


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## jar

I am not sure what the rush is.

We are both the type of people to get things done and not procrastinate once we have made a decision. So I think that is what the big rush is for. I guess she just wants this to be over ASAP so she can live her life single with out being tied down. My guess is so she can continue her affair. I think that is where her cold mean attitude is coming from. She is not getting what she wants fast enough. My guess is she is also getting a bit stressed out with everything and everyone knowing and is angry about that. Also because I gave her an ultimatum lose me for ever or end the affair. I also said I was not willing to speak to her unless it was through mediator if the affair continues. She has respected this so I got to assume the affair continues.

In terms of the sale of our home. She is not happy with the community we live in. We love the house hate our town and community. So that is tying her down in a big way and contributing to her unhappiness. She wants out of her life but just cant escape. It also does not help that the housing market is really bad and we will be lucky to even sell the place. In terms of the money we will take a huge hit on the house. Money wise we have enough monthly income for one of us to rent a cheap place and live. Since I am the one that finally left looks like I will be the one renting.

In terms of begging for her back. I do know not to go there and I won’t. 

The lawyer and the mediator both told me I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to do and I don’t want to go to meditation today I want to postpone it.

I do here you when you say that I would be better off in some ways with out her. I do love this woman and don’t want to give up. This is not like her especially the way she is acting towards me.

I have had most everyone in my life tell me it is over especially my family. My dad says I need to go to this meeting and move on. Not really what I want to hear. 

I called our marriage therapist which we are not seeing at this point and she says my wife has been pretty ambivalent through this and it seems that her mind is made up and there is nothing I can do. My therapist also says the same thing. 

Why am I trying to hold on? Are what the books, affair care, and everybody on this forum talking about BS. Sorry I don’t mean to be offensive. Is it to far gone or is she getting to that angry phase that I have read about. Do I believe what she is saying? Is it the affair or does she just wants out...I don’t know at this point?

I do know that I want to slow everything way down. Our state does not require any type of separation time before they grant a divorce. Once the paper work if filed everything goes pretty quick especially since there are no kids involved.

JAR


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## jessi

Look she is in a deep fog right now and there might not be anything you can actually do until that fog lifts.....
You can always re-marry her if she has a dose of reality some day......
I would go No Contact and make her do the work if she is the one that wants to end things.....
Go out looking like the best guy in the world and when he life falls apart she will see you as the safe place to be....
Go on with your life and be open to what life has to offer....
Tell her that you will always be there for her if she is willing to try with your marriage again.....and that you will hold out hope that she comes to realize how much you love her and your life together.....
I'm sorry she is being mean and uncaring, she has to according to the fog rules.....
pick yourself up, brush yourself off and see what else life has to offer you........


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## turnera

jar said:


> Then she told me to let her go


If you research, you'll see that 99.5% of ALL waywards say this exact same phrase. I have seen it over and over and over and over again. Even with waywards who eventually give up the affair and come home; and sometimes THANK their spouse for NOT letting them go.

It's not over until YOU feel you can no longer fight for her. It's not our place to determine that, but I will posit that you have a lot more fight left in you. I will also suggest that you are a pleaser, and any time she says anything negative that makes you feel like she is disappointed in you, you CAVE and give her whatever she wants.

You really need to get beyond that reaction; it is not healthy, and probably even contributed to her pulling away from the marriage; we can't love someone we don't respect.


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## turnera

Her rush is that she wants to be single as fast as possible so that she can then parade her OM around and PRETEND that she just met him, as a single woman. The longer she stays married, the harder it is to pretend they aren't together, and the harder to keep her image clean. 

THAT is why you expose the affair.


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## jar

I think all of you are right. Thank you..

I talked to a bunch of friends today and family. Everyone is urging me to go. They are telling me to go with an open mind and don’t talk deal just talk about the mediation process and what to expect and see if this is how we want to handle things.
I guess I will try that. I can always leave if I don’t like the way things are going.

Turnera 

Your right a about being a pleaser. I have especially been that way lately in our relationship because all she does is tell me things she doesn’t like about me our life and or marriage. So I try to listen and address these things. 



JAR


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## turnera

Addressing them is not the same thing as allowing her to cheat on you.


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## jar

I agree with you

This is just a tough position to be in and I am constantly wondering if I am handling my self correctly and wondering what do I do next.

I hope that she changes her mind about this before it is too late.

JAR


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## turnera

Have you tried buying her books like Surviving an Affair or His Needs Her Needs? If she really is 'still in there' and is worth saving, there is always a chance that she will recognize what has happened to her if you give her the books and she reads them.


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## jar

She is a big reader and has already read more than just friends and the seven principles that make marriage work. I think maybe she thinks that she is different than what is described in those books. But I am only speculating.

When I am done reading surviving the affair I will pass it along to her. Not sure she would even read that at this point.

I hope her therapist is working with her on this stuff

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,

UPS just dropped off "Surviving". I will start it tonight.
You said you were listening. My advice is not to talk in response. Right now you should not cooperate. Drag those feet. 
I think my wife may be heading in the same direction. I sense she may want to show she didn't make a mistake. If she files for divorce she is showing commitment to her decision. Maybe even to her new man.
The advice from your friends I think is rooted in the fact that in their eyes your wife is "trash". Why would you want "trash"? You have a different view. You have learned much in 2 weeks. They lack wisdom and knowledge.
Go read CMF's thread. There is hope!


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## jar

Well I went to mediation tonight.

It was pretty emotional for me and the wife. She showed up with a list of every item in each room of the house right down to pens, spoons, and the welcome matt at the front door.

I was a bit surprised to say the least.

Basically I agreed to pay half the bills. I could tell she was bothered about my pay check and new checking account and PO Box and worried about money. I agreed to pay my half of the bills but could tell it bothered her b/c the number was not like she was use to. She is all so use to controlling the bills and the money in the house.

She got really emotional when it came to our Great Dane Annabelle. I packed her and moved her with me the day I left. The wife feels I took her from her out of anger and was really crying over this. She thinks I have just dropped the dog at my families and I am drifting around and free loading off of all my friends. She feels that she is the one that has always taken care of the dog. She actually said if you want her I am giving her to you. Can you believe this? I told her you made a decision to leave this marriage and have an affair so there for me and Annie’s left. You left us with no other choice. Plus I don’t think my wife can take care of her. She is a lot of dog to deal with.

After all of this I shut down bad and said this to the mediator. I said that I am about to get angry and say a bunch of things I don’t mean.

So that was mediation next meeting is in 2 weeks. 

I must say it was nice to see the wife after 2.5 weeks. I wish I could say she gained 50lbs but she looked real good and had a new hair cut.

JAR


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## lastinline

iamnottheonlyone said:


> What do you have to gain by going to the mediation? What do you gain by cancelling? You made your point with her. You could not have expected any other response. Ask your lawyer what will happen if you don't participate in the mediation at all.


In California if you "miss" court appointed mediation you are subject to a fine. I think it's 250.00. I'll have to "check" my check book.

LIL


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## iamnottheonlyone

How are you looking? Taking care of yourself? There is a lot of time for her to think? Keep your cool.


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## Affaircare

Jar~

Can you do me a favor? I am big into doing some research and knowing the facts, so can you PM either myself or Tanelornpete and in a very general way tell us the state you live in? I would like to research your specific state's laws on divorce, mediation, affairs, separation...just all of it. 

I could give you very general guidelines but ... I don't roll that way.  Nah, in this instance I'm not a lawyer but I do know about how to delay a divorce in all 50 states (heehee) so that the affair has time to die it's own natural death... and there's stuff we can do in between to make it die faster and to help you get your feet back under you. 

So PM and then when I reply I can be more suited to you.


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## lonely101

From one woman who has been there, The one thing you can do is LISTEN TO HER!!!!!!!!!! The affair is not the problem.. It is a result of the problem. Whatever she was feeling drove her to reach out to someone besides you. As hard as it is to hear, she felt you weren't available. People don't just decide to go out and cheat. There's a reason... get to the root of it. Listen to her and ask the right questions. It's hard, but be objective and listen. It'll be a lot of "you did's", and finger pointing. LET HER. 

If just once my husband had listened to "why" I did what I did, and what I was feeling, we might be closer right now. We're still married and working on it, but he's still shut down and recovering. As odd as it seems, she's feeling her own kind of pain. LISTEN. If for no other reason, then for the fact that all of this baggage goes on with you into your next relationship... resolve it now. I promise; if you don't it WILL come back to haunt you. Oh, and most importantly, Pray hard, pray often, and pray for comprehension of his master plan. This stuff doesn't just happen randomly. He has a plan. God Bless.


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## jar

iamnottheonlyone said:


> How are you looking? Taking care of yourself? There is a lot of time for her to think? Keep your cool.


I am taking care of myself. I think I looked presentable yesterday. I was wearing business casual type of clothes. Had a hair cut and the biggest change was I shaved my goatee off for the first time in several years. So I am sure that was a big change for her to see. So I think I am taking care of myself and looking good.



Affaircare said:


> Jar~
> 
> Can you do me a favor? I am big into doing some research and knowing the facts, so can you PM either myself or Tanelornpete and in a very general way tell us the state you live in? I would like to research your specific state's laws on divorce, mediation, affairs, separation...just all of it.
> 
> I could give you very general guidelines but ... I don't roll that way.  Nah, in this instance I'm not a lawyer but I do know about how to delay a divorce in all 50 states (heehee) so that the affair has time to die it's own natural death... and there's stuff we can do in between to make it die faster and to help you get your feet back under you.
> 
> So PM and then when I reply I can be more suited to you.


PM Sent



lonely101 said:


> From one woman who has been there, The one thing you can do is LISTEN TO HER!!!!!!!!!! The affair is not the problem.. It is a result of the problem. Whatever she was feeling drove her to reach out to someone besides you. As hard as it is to hear, she felt you weren't available. People don't just decide to go out and cheat. There's a reason... get to the root of it. Listen to her and ask the right questions. It's hard, but be objective and listen. It'll be a lot of "you did's", and finger pointing. LET HER.
> 
> If just once my husband had listened to "why" I did what I did, and what I was feeling, we might be closer right now. We're still married and working on it, but he's still shut down and recovering. As odd as it seems, she's feeling her own kind of pain. LISTEN. If for no other reason, then for the fact that all of this baggage goes on with you into your next relationship... resolve it now. I promise; if you don't it WILL come back to haunt you. Oh, and most importantly, Pray hard, pray often, and pray for comprehension of his master plan. This stuff doesn't just happen randomly. He has a plan. God Bless.


I do take full responsibility for my part of all of this. I also recognize that she has been in her own pain as well. I also recognize that she has some issues at this point that have nothing to do with our marriage or me. You are completely right about her not feeling like I was available especially emotionally. This is the connection her and her affair partner have it is emotional and now physical. 

Basically I think I have done well over the past few months to listen what the problems for her have been and have made many changes to change her feelings.

She complained of being lonely much of the time. So she told me if I checked in more with her during work hours with email phone calls and text it would make her feel more connected so I did this periodically during the day. She also didn’t like the fact I come home so late. I have a 1 hour commute and would not get home till 6-7 so a few months ago I changed my work hours so I would be home by 5. This was a big change on my part that required a lot of finagling with the VPs at work. Her loneliness also stems from our past. I use to work like a dog and traveled all week. I had the type of job that the cell phone and black berry would be going off from 5am till 10pm and I would be constantly working and dealing with work. I definitely put work first in the past this was a big problem for her. So I got a new job because of the economy. I have been at this job for a year. I no longer travel and the phone never rings. When I am home I am home. She also complained about other things like the toilet seat and her feeling like she is also picking up after me etc. She also felt I didn’t contribute doing house hold things like laundry dishes etc. So I changed all of my habits and started helping and doing these things with out complaining. She also talked about the little things that made her feel loved. Flowers little notes doing things around the house with out her asking. So I did these things. I also made sure I spent quality time with her every day. Talking and asking questions and being invested in conversation with her. Lastly another complaint of her is I tend not to show emotion. So I have gotten in touch with my emotions and express what I feel when she asks. It has taken a lot of therapy and sole searching for me to make this change. I have been doing these things consistently for the past few months. 

Well she felt that these things would not last so I made sure to keep up with things etc. After she came back home things were going well and we were making great progress the only thing that was off was the affection. She pulled a way when I would try to hug her, kiss her, or touch her. She just said I am not ready for those sorts of things. So I waited patently in that department with no pressure. Although those are the types of things that make me feel close to her. So with all these changes I made for her I felt we were making progress except for in therapy should would talk about not believing these things would last like it is too good to be true. She talked about how me doing these things for her made her feel guilty, She talked about how me doing these things for her much of the time she felt nothing but ambivalence. She would also say that she feels like I am her friend. During this whole time she wasn’t opening up to me as much as I was to her. I figured this would come in time. We had a lot of trust to rebuild with one anther. The last two weeks I was home she was getting very snippy with me every time I tried to do things for her. Her guilt I guess. This is when she admitted to me that she never ended her affair. This is when I realized she has been holding back because she hasn’t been emotionally available at all or being honest. I just didn’t see it at the time. I was happy she was home and we were having a good time again do the things we like to do as a couple. She just doesn’t see me..or things I have changed for her..

JAR


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## turnera

Well, she can't see that while the fog is surrounding her. Only if OM is out of the picture can she ever even see you again for who you really are. So that's where your focus should be, should you decide to pursue that. Women CAN come back from that brink; I see it all the time. Unfortunately, life sucks for you during that time, and you literally have to bite your tongue, while fighting the affair, making it as miserable as possible for her to continue it.

Personally, your story of change, exploration, and insight is one of the most promising I've ever read. Y'all's story is textbook classic, but the amount of change _you_ have achieved, I believe, surpasses that of a typical BH. So, if she's worth keeping and not severely flawed inside, she'll see it if you can get her away from OM, and I see a decent chance for you guys.


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## notreadytoquit

According to Dr. Harley WW are also less likely to relapse into the affair than WH which should also be good for you. I read that yesterday in His Needs Her Needs book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Jar~

I have a few notes for you that I've discovered in my research. 

In your state, before any divorce is finalized, either mediation or counseling will be ordered. They don't particularly FINE you--but as standard practice they will order one or the other. Otherwise the process a lot like most states:

The papers are filed. The one who files is petitioner, the other one is respondent. In your state there is no-fault divorce, but you can also claim the grounds of adultery. 

When the petitioner files, the respondent has a certain amount of time to "respond" to the papers. It's SUPER important to respond within that timeframe!! But it's my understanding that in your response you can counter-claim with adultery. 

So before we go any further, right now has either one of you actually filed divorce papers? It's my understanding that she's saying she wants divorce (but all disloyals say that so for now sort of ignore it), but as I re-read your posts, what I see is that you went to a mediator voluntarily. It was not court-ordered or anything, and there aren't even papers filed. 

Thus, a couple of things. I would change this tactic 100%. All of this going to a mediator is voluntary. And a mediator's job is to resolve disputes, right? So I suggest that YOU contact the mediator and tell them, "This is not court-ordered mediation, and I'm contacting you to explain my side. I do not want this divorce nor do I even want to be separated. At this point my wife is blatantly carrying on an affair, and in our mediation sessions I do not want to focus on dividing our stuff or agreeing on how to split. The dispute that we need to have resolved is that she wants to split up and I do not. Would you be willing to mediate THAT dispute? If not, I will go ahead and interview other mediators who will work with us on THAT issue. I am not willing to discuss how we divide our possessions at this time." 

My point here is that since the mediation is not court-ordered, you are not obligated to discuss "how to divide the assets and debts". You can choose a mediator YOU like, who will address the issue of reconciling. Furthermore, just so you know...if papers ARE filed, you can at any point as the court to ORDER 60 days of mediation about reconciling and 60 days of marriage counseling. So that RIGHT THERE is 120 days of delay that the court would compel her to do before the divorce became final--and that's 4 months. 

So Jar, don't panic. This will not be over in 2 weeks. I don't think it's even really begun yet!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar, you made a great effort to save your marriage. Too bad she fooled you with you thinking the affair was over. If you had known what you know now while making those efforts and changes maybe you could have taken a different approach. Part of the learning curve. Don't look back. Keep going. There must be great stress on the affair. Stay positive.


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## jar

Affaircare, iamnottheonlyone, turnera, and everyone else that has offered insight or just taken time to read my situation thank you. It has really helped. 

I have done a lot of thinking today and the old emotions have gone from sad to being ok to crying like a baby.

At this point I do think that the affair is under a bunch of stress. At least I hope it is. The wife has some anger and sadness from what I can tell. I could also see a lot of worry from our mediation session yesterday. Especially about money the finances and our dog Annabelle. I know there is a lot of stress at this point.

It dawned on me today a few things about her affair partner he suffers from many of the same insecurities as my wife. His last relationship was just terrible on again and off. I believe he was much of the problem and not his x. I know he has a lot of self worth and esteem issues and is a bit dramatic like my wife. He is also from another country and completely different culture so I know it won’t last. I just don’t think he will be able to stay planted solid and be able to handle this type of stress from my wife with out flipping out. I know she needs a certain amount of stability it helps keep her grounded. So that’s what I know about that or at least my observation on things. I could be wrong. I just hope I can hold out long enough till it is over.

Affaircare I appreciate the research you put in on my behalf. It was very insightful and gave me a lot to think about. I think the mediator is ok but you bring up a good point the mediator knows we are at opposite ends of the table with me not wanting a divorce and my wife wanting out. I guess I feel that she started mediating the split and dove right into the nuts and bolts with finances and debts etc. She didn’t really address the issues at hand with one wanting out and the other not. I am angry at her for this and feel that she has sided with divorce. I am going to challenge her on this big time. She needs to mediate this before anything else. I am also not happy with the amount of money I have to pay the wife. I feel I owe her 400 a month to much. I don’t think she heard me or my points. So I am really going to lay the law down on her about these two issues. Part of the reason I feel I am paying to much is basically because I want my wife’s budget to get really tight. I am good with numbers and budgets and will come armed to argue my point next time. I will get my way I am persuasive and have argued way bigger deals in my day so I am not worried about that.

I am struggling with a few things tonight. My family and friends think I am nuts to want the wife back. I just tell them I love her ton and know what I want. This is not like her. People are telling me just to get over it and move on. I don’t like hearing this but I know what they say is true. I remind myself everyday of these things and I do not understand why I am putting up with this and not moving on. I just don’t get it. Other than I love this woman every strength and weakness and she is my wife. I am struggling with why I feel this way. The only people that are supporting me in my crusade and understand is the people here at TAM. The family and friends pressure and opinion is a lot to take.

Affair care I have thought a lot about the legal issues you have brought up. First off no one has filed or even really talked about it at this point. I could go the legal direction that you described to buy time but I hope it does not come to this. Basically I think it makes me look like an A hole and feel that it will push my already stubborn wife further away. Don’t you...Don’t you think it will be obvious to everyone what I am doing and make it worst. This is the point where I can see things getting really ugly. She will push a way harder and quicker.

I have been so fixed on this affair as being the problem. If that were over I have been thinking that would be the end all. The wife would come home we work on things and life would be grand. I have to at this point consider that is only a small part of the problem. I have to come to the relation and deal with the fact the wife wants out of being married for her own reason. Some reasons I will never understand. She has things she wants to do and experience in life with out being married. I have to deal with this and I just haven’t been. 

My therapists and I talked a lot today and she really helped me realize a few things. My issue is I don’t want this to happen at all costs and I am not dealing with certain emotions. She also explained things are happening really fast at this point and I am being made to feel like I have to do certain things that I don’t want to like get a divorce and sine on a dotted line. Heres the thing I am a supper defiant person. If I am being told what to do and I really don’t want to do it this is where I can become a real s&%* head. I go into shut down mode. When this happens I can get ruthless. I get angry and vindictive this is where I would just become a real pain in the butt. The wife would end up having even more ill will towards me and never want to come back to a person like this. I was already in this mode today. A friend had to talk me off the walls. I was ready for a battle. I don’t want to be a monster or be remembered by the wife as a person like this.

How about I just come to the mediation session and explain to her this is sudden and fast for me and I feel like it is out of control. Explain that I need to slow things way down and just ask her can we just separate for 5 months or so and that is it. Explain there is a lot of emotion driving our decision so it would give us a chance to calm before we go any further. But mostly explain that I need her to give me this separation time so that I can grieve and let her go and be ok about this. Explain to her that if she doesn’t give me this time that it will get ugly. Not because I want it to but because this is how I get when I am being forced to do something I don’t want to do. How about I explain to her that emotionally and mentally I can’t do this at this time because I am not at a place to let her go yet. Tell her this separation is all about my needs at this point and I need her to do this for me. 


Doesn’t this sound better? It buys me time to mentally deal with this divorce and go through the things I need to. It also buys me time to sit back and wait for this affair to die out. It also lets her know how I am feeling about things and takes the focus off of her. How can you argue with this tactic especially with a mediator present? I am hopping that she also notices that this is something the old me would never do. 

JAR


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## jar

Wow I wrote a book last night. Sorry for being so long winded.

I guess I needed to vent

Jar


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## iamnottheonlyone

Review what you learned on the past few weeks. Did any of your friends and family know what you know today. If you knew 6 months ago what you know today and you were committed to your marriage, there is a good chance that you would have not been in this situation. I wouls not say to her that you need time to get over her. You are not prepared to move on. 
Remember, she is in the fog. Things she is saying now count for nothing. You are a good man. Work on you. You don't want to go tothat mediation and be a beast. You are are a charming, confident man. Build on that. No ove busters or love extinguishers.
All you can do is stall now until the affair busts. She will not turn the corner until the affair burns out. You are in a holding pattern. You need to keep circling. You can't get her closer to you right now. You can "wait" or push her away. Be the best you!


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## turnera

jar said:


> At this point I do think that the affair is under a bunch of stress.


That's exactly what you should hope for, if you can wait it out. Only you know your limits. At MB, they recommend that, once you expose the affair, you wait a set amount of time before moving on. That's so that you don't end up condoning the affair by keeping her (if she's still at home) or that you don't lose what love you have left for her, by sitting back and watching her throw her affair in your face. I think the average time for a BH is something like 3 months. Plus, knowing a set time gives you hope: hope that you will either get her back or else WILL have another life waiting for you while you're still whole and not a mental cripple, lol.



> I am struggling with a few things tonight. My family and friends think I am nuts to want the wife back. I just tell them I love her ton and know what I want. This is not like her.


Explain to them what you've learned about affairs and fog and rewriting history and brain chemicals and all. So they will understand it IS like she's been taken over by an alien, or that she's addicted to the 'drug' of the affair high.



> I have been so fixed on this affair as being the problem. If that were over I have been thinking that would be the end all. The wife would come home we work on things and life would be grand. I have to at this point consider that is only a small part of the problem. I have to come to the relation and deal with the fact the wife wants out of being married for her own reason. Some reasons I will never understand. She has things she wants to do and experience in life with out being married. I have to deal with this and I just haven’t been.


 This is VERY powerful stuff for you to understand, and I commend you. A LOT of women marry in their 20s with this grand vision of what marriage will do for them; or they don't even consider that part. They expect a man to come home and kiss her and care for her and make her feel special...every day...like when you're dating. Just like guys don't get what having a baby entails, usually, girls, IMO, don't get that marriage isn't the fantasy they grew up with. 

In my experience - and I'm generalizing a LOT here, YMMV, often women do a LOT of compromising, a lot of stifling themselves, in a marriage, as they come to realize the guy has a different vision of what a marriage is. The romance goes away, all the stuff they expected, and they typically today take on a full-time job and also take over running the household. They give up their sports or their activities or their girls' nights, etc., to let the nesting instinct take over. Then, after many years, they realize that having kids is fine, being married, doing 75% of the housework, being responsible for keeping the family running (doctors, etc.)...but what about them?

I typically see the WH go AWOL because he just wants more SF, sometimes because the wife is fed up with him and distances herself so they grow apart; the WW goes AWOL because this life isn't mentally, emotionally, fulfilling. The SF isn't so important, as the thought of having the man back who came in and swept her off her feet. And if she becomes a SAHM, it's even worse, because he still gets to go out and be with real adults, go on real lunches, act like an adult; she is NOW just a frump, a service, a shell of the former _adult_ she used to be.

At least from all the threads I've read over the years, that's the most typical reasoning I've seen. Barring the person who is just selfish or narcissistic, of course - _those_ people just care about themselves and stray when the marriage stops feeding their ego.



> She also explained things are happening really fast at this point and I am being made to feel like I have to do certain things that I don’t want to like get a divorce and sine on a dotted line. ... How about I just come to the mediation session and explain to her this is sudden and fast for me and I feel like it is out of control. Explain that I need to slow things way down and just ask her can we just separate for 5 months or so and that is it. Explain there is a lot of emotion driving our decision so it would give us a chance to calm before we go any further. But mostly explain that I need her to give me this separation time so that I can grieve and let her go and be ok about this. Explain to her that if she doesn’t give me this time that it will get ugly.


That's why we were urging you to just not go, or else tell her you don't want it. There is NO REASON for you to be doing this this fast, except for the fact that she wants to be legitimate so she can date. You have NO REASON to agree to that.

I would not say about the getting ugly, she'll take that as a threat. Just say it's not what you want, you won't participate any more, for at least 5 months, and if she wants to come and talk to you that's fine, but you are done with mediation for now. You need space. Telling her it's about you or whatever...won't make a difference. She doesn't CARE about you or your feelings. That's why you just have to remove emotions for now and just be logical, just the facts, and _maintain your strength_.

"I am not ready for this and I will not agree to continue. I need time to digest you cheating on me. We can talk about it later."


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## iamnottheonlyone

Let me toss in some timeline info. Somewhere in my reading I read women can stand Plan A for about 2 weeks, men for 6 months. Once an affair is in the open, they generally are damaged within six months. All most all fail within 18 months. Harley recommends a commitment of 6 months on Plan A. Of course even a good Plan A can be sabotaged by the divorce bug. I am doing my best Plan A to avoid the filing. I see what JAR and CMF are doing. It has surprised me that with them, once the divorce steamroller starts moving it seems to put a lot of stress on the WS. Trying to be the best person you can be, even at these legal meetings, increases the stress. The WS spouse looks across the tabel and sees the great person they married.


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## turnera

Thanks, iam, I couldn't remember the timeline.


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## jar

turnera said:


> That's exactly what you should hope for, if you can wait it out. Only you know your limits. At MB, they recommend that, once you expose the affair, you wait a set amount of time before moving on. That's so that you don't end up condoning the affair by keeping her (if she's still at home) or that you don't lose what love you have left for her, by sitting back and watching her throw her affair in your face. I think the average time for a BH is something like 3 months. Plus, knowing a set time gives you hope: hope that you will either get her back or else WILL have another life waiting for you while you're still whole and not a mental cripple, lol.
> 
> Explain to them what you've learned about affairs and fog and rewriting history and brain chemicals and all. So they will understand it IS like she's been taken over by an alien, or that she's addicted to the 'drug' of the affair high.
> 
> This is VERY powerful stuff for you to understand, and I commend you. A LOT of women marry in their 20s with this grand vision of what marriage will do for them; or they don't even consider that part. They expect a man to come home and kiss her and care for her and make her feel special...every day...like when you're dating. Just like guys don't get what having a baby entails, usually, girls, IMO, don't get that marriage isn't the fantasy they grew up with.
> 
> In my experience - and I'm generalizing a LOT here, YMMV, often women do a LOT of compromising, a lot of stifling themselves, in a marriage, as they come to realize the guy has a different vision of what a marriage is. The romance goes away, all the stuff they expected, and they typically today take on a full-time job and also take over running the household. They give up their sports or their activities or their girls' nights, etc., to let the nesting instinct take over. Then, after many years, they realize that having kids is fine, being married, doing 75% of the housework, being responsible for keeping the family running (doctors, etc.)...but what about them?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you are right about this. At this point I think I may understand her feelings better than she. She has never been able to verbalize these things.
> 
> Since day one she swept in and did the nesting thing. She runs the bills and handles all the house hold stuff cooks dinners and burdens her self with much of the stress of our life. The thing is I never asked her to do these things. When she would complain about these things I would offer to help or a solution. I also don’t expect these things of her. I have told her this 100 times. For instance she didn’t like cleaning either did I so I got a house cleaner. If she doesn’t want to cook dinner I am fine with going out or eating left over’s. In fact I never ask what is for dinner I ask are we having dinner tonight. I can through out a hundred examples like this. This is all things she has taken over in our life and likes doing her self.
> 
> In terms of her feeling like she has made sacrifices for me that have affected her happiness and she has lost her self along the way. I agree with that she has always been supportive of me and my stuff. She was supportive of my job even know she hated it. She always let us spends our money on what ever I wanted with out too much of a fuss etc. Except for now she feels she missed out and we have a assumed these roles permanently. I tell her tell me what you want out of life and we will make it happen together and I will be supportive. You want to move we can do that. You want to go to school again we can do that. You want to travel we can save up for that. But again she just always kind of says I don’t know.
> 
> I have told her we don’t have to be into the same things but we can reach a compromise on anything. I also told her that part of marriage is supporting your partner in there endeavors. For instance she started a small marry kay business for the fun of it. I have no interest in it but I tagged along to certain events and would listen and talk with her and share in her joy the best I could. Even know I could care less about that sort of thing. I new it was important to her. She has done the same for me on many things as well.
> 
> So I have told her all of these things but she doesn’t see a change possible. I think it is mostly her in fact when she came home one of the things was we would make the house hold stuff more of a partnership that way she would not feel burdened all the time. Except that when I would join in to help or say we need to balance the check book lets do it. She would respond with I already did it with out you. So she just slipped back into her same old responsibility when she returned home.
> 
> I think that she also has a lot of fantasy about lots of romance and passion etc. Like when we were dating and there isn’t as much of that now in our life. As our therapist said all of the fundamentals of a good relationship are there. They need some fine tuning and redirecting. Also we both need to learn a few skills about communication. I guess this is something that she does not hear or process when the consular and I tell her.
> 
> So I understand what you are saying. I just wish she would realize she does not need to leave our marriage to fulfill these dreams. I want to be by her side and help her accomplish her goals in life what ever they may be. I am open to just about anything. Again I have readily told her this.
> 
> JAR


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## turnera

Maybe she would hear it from someone else?

If you have money and can get her to go, marriagebuilders.com puts on weekend sessions you both go to, and it's supposed to be amazing at getting you both focused on having a marriage you BOTH enjoy. 

IDK, all I can think is be creative. 

Also, when you say she 'doesn't know'...that sounds like a big red flag to me in terms of her possibly having personal issues that are going to cause her to self destruct no matter what you do. Do you have any sense of that? What was her childhood like?


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## jar

II would spend the money but I guess the affair has to be over and since she is saying divorce I think it would be tough to get her to something like this. 3 months ago I asked her if she would go with me to see gottman. It was going to cost about 7k. She wasn’t into in to it. It was a bad time in our relationship.

In terms of my wife’s childhood. She is a small town girl all of her family and extended family lives near by. She has a ton of extended family and relatives. She grew up in a pretty good home. Both parents are married still. Her mom is pretty loving and caring person. She is also a very emotional woman. She cries at the drop of a hat. Her dad is a great guy. Typical guy into hunting and sports. He worked very hard all his life to provide for his family. He is also stubborn guy that can get grumpy. They weren’t wealthy people but they didn’t go with out either. Overall I think it was a good life for them


She has one older sister. She is only a year older. My wife has always felt she is following in her sister foot steps. Her sis is a teacher and married her high school sweet heart. They have a great house and 2 year old twins. They never moved away either.

So family life for her was pretty good. Great loving family lots of aunts and uncles and cousins. Every one is very close. Every Sunday they all use to get together for Sunday lunch and do the family thing.

My wife is one of the only ones that have moved away and we are only 2.5 hours away. So she likes to go and see them often which drives me nuts and interferes in our marriage.

I know there is something deep going on in her. She has loneliness issues and in my opinion depression issues. She is also stubborn and says she doesn’t have any issues. She has let me in some over the past few months and much of the time feels that she is not attractive. She also feels people will not like her if she dresses a certain way or wears too much markup etc. She drives her self nuts with these thoughts. I tell her every day she is beautiful. Which she is and her response usually is you’re my husband and you do not know what you’re talking about. I think many people think she is a bit tough to get along with. She is stubborn and has no problem telling others what she thinks. She can also be demanding and a complainer especially when she has to do something she doesn’t like.

My wife does not have many friends and hardly opens up to anyone. She just puts on a happy face much of the time especially in front of her family. I never realized how good of an actor she is until recently


She is the type of person that takes care of our home and does a great job. In her down time she reads or watches TV. She also works out some. So she does not have many hobbies or interests in her life. 

Some of her relatives on both sides have drug and alcohol problems.

I do think something major is brewing in side of her and she is not on a good path. I could be wrong but this is my take on things. I have even spoken to her family about this and asked them to take care of her.

JAR


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## turnera

Look into a book called Healing the Shame That Binds You. It may or may not apply to you, but it's really great stuff to learn, and may help. Second daughter, obsession with looks, closed off...are fairly good indicators of toxic shame.


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## Affaircare

Hey Jar~

Just so you know, I think you may have misunderstood my suggestions, so if you don't mind, I will re-word them. There was a concern brought up that in some states, if you miss a mediation appointment you can be fined, so I wanted to look up the laws in your state about mediation and divorce, and gather all the facts. 

What I discovered is that once divorce is filed, and before it is finalized, the court will almost always order some kind of attempt at reconciliation-mediation or marriage counseling. These court orders are usually/often for 60 days, and if you were to ask for both of those options that's a minimum of 120 days (or 4 months) right there! Thus, your fear that this divorce was being hurried and would be over in 2 weeks can be soothed. 

PLUS I see that neither of you has even filed yet! So this mediation is not court-ordered (which would look bad if you didn't go), but rather is all voluntary!! Thus, my suggestion to you is to stall/delay legal action as long as possible. If you were to go to the voluntary mediation and "reach agreements" with her on how to divide the assets, how to divide the debts, how much to pay for alimony or child support...then she could file a Joint Divorce and it would indeed go much faster. 

Soooo...since all of this is voluntary, I suggest telling the mediator that you are no longer interesting in reaching agreements about how to end the marriage and that the dispute you want to resolve is how to save the marriage. If they don't want to mediate that dispute, then I would be VERY polite and say, "Thank you--I will find a mediator with whom I'm comfortable to resolved that conflict. Bye!" 

The reason I suggest that is that you do NOT have to go to that mediation! That is your wife's attempt to say, "Hey can we have a nice, friendly divorce and you just agree to pay me to carry on the affair? Please?" You don't have to be a jerk--just say no. "Sorry sweetheart I'm not interested in agreeing how to split things for a divorce so I won't be cooperating in divorce behavior. I'm interested in negotiating how to repair the marriage, and I'll put my efforts into that."

So in order here's what I suggest: 
1) Begin immediately with the 7 Steps to Ending an Affair. We can review together which step you are on right now--I think you have evidence, may be on one of the C-D-E steps, and could possibly be up to Carrot & Stick. 
2) Voluntary Mediation--Don't necessarily let her control or guilt you into willingly agreeing on "how to separate and divorce." I don't mean be a jerk, but these meetings are of your own volition--thus you don't need to go at all if you don't want to! If you do, I wouldn't agree to paying her anything, and I'd keep voluntary mediation to discussing how to save the marriage or nothing. In other words, this is not a requirement and you are not compelled to do this, so either use it to save the marriage or don't do it. 
3) If papers are filed--First I'd say if you don't want the divorce, don't file for divorce. If she wants it, she has to file! If she doesn't file, you don't have to do anything, legally. If she does file papers, you have a certain timeframe (usually 30 days) in which to respond, and I'd suggest waiting for as much of the timeframe as possible before you respond (like 28 days) and then counter-claiming with the grounds of adultery and finding a lawyer who is very pro-marriage. Then you can do many tactics to stall such as claiming adultery. That delays because if you claim that you then have a timeframe to submit some evidence to support your claim (usually 30 MORE days)... and so on! You can ask for Legal Separation instead of divorce. You can ask that the court order reconciliation mediation ... then ask for court-ordered marriage counseling. So you could delay a divorce for a long, long time, even sometimes just by asking for an extension by the court or by rescheduling! 

So to recap--no I don't think you should take any legal steps if she hasn't! But if she does, even then don't panic because there are tactics to delay until the affair ends. 

Now to reply directly to some of what you said: 



> Affaircare I appreciate the research you put in on my behalf. It was very insightful and gave me a lot to think about. I think the mediator is ok but you bring up a good point the mediator knows we are at opposite ends of the table with me not wanting a divorce and my wife wanting out. I guess I feel that she started mediating the split and dove right into the nuts and bolts with finances and debts etc. She didn’t really address the issues at hand with one wanting out and the other not. I am angry at her for this and feel that she has sided with divorce. *I am going to challenge her on this big time.* She needs to mediate this before anything else.


It concerns me that you say you are going to challenge her (the mediator). Usually the word "challenge" has a connotation of being a little confrontational and defiant. I would encourage you to have an attitude that is calm, consistent and confident (not evasive), but not demanding or provoking or instigating. Overall, you want to have some flexibility and open mindedness, but have a clear definition of what you will and will not accept--a clear definition of your boundaries. Then, very politely, stand by and enforce them. By "boundaries" do not mean what you will and will not let your wife do, but rather it is a fence around YOU: what you will and will not accept in your life and around you. So a good example would be: "I am not interested in mediating about how to split possessions as I don't agree with doing that at this time. Since this is voluntary, what I am interested in mediating is how to save the marriage. I would like her to end her affair and put that energy into returning the love to our commitment." 



> I am also not happy with the amount of money I have to pay the wife. I feel I owe her 400 a month to much. I don’t think she heard me or my points. So *I am really going to lay the law down* on her about these two issues. Part of the reason I feel I am paying to much is basically because I want my wife’s budget to get really tight. I am good with numbers and budgets and will come armed to argue my point next time. *I will get my way* I am persuasive and have argued way bigger deals in my day so I am not worried about that.


Ah--three things catch my eye there. You "Have To" pay your wife huh? Who's making you? Not the courts. Not the police. No laws. Not the mediator? Sooooo...what exactly is compelling you to pay your wife anything? The reason I ask is not to be mean, but the way I see it, your wife is basically asking you to agree to pay her to carry on the affair! That seems...unbelievable! It seems reasonable to me that if you made a commitment to a loan, that you continue to pay that loan or bill as long as that item is not being used to continue the affair! For example...she's staying at home, she has the OM at the house, but your name is on the mortgage and deed...I say move back home. Period. What's she going to do, stop you? It's your house too! If your name isn't on the mortgage or deed...don't pay that bill because she's using the house to further the affair. Cell phone on your plan and she's using it to call the OM? Drop her cell off your plan. Get the idea? I don't see ANYTHING that is forcing you to pay your wife ANYTHING!! She vowed to dedicate all of her affection and loyalty only for you, and she is the one who is breaking the commitment. So if she wants to break the agreement between you two, she has to fund her own way to do so. This is not done in a vindictive way but rather in a calm, firm, confident enforcement of boundaries: "I will not finance any part of my spouse's adultery."

Next, I see you saying you're going to force the mediator again. See where you said: "...I am really going to lay the law down" and "...I will get my way"? Those kinds of statements are controlling and demanding and at a time like this, being confrontational and manipulative is not going to advance your case. Be consistent and firm instead. "No I will not volunteer to fund adultery--she'll need to pay for that." "She decided to break contract between us, and she'll need to decide how to pay for her choices now."



> Affair care I have thought a lot about the legal issues you have brought up. First off no one has filed or even really talked about it at this point. I could go the legal direction that you described to buy time but I hope it does not come to this. Basically I think it makes me look like an A hole and feel that it will push my already stubborn wife further away. Don’t you...Don’t you think it will be obvious to everyone what I am doing and make it worst. This is the point where I can see things getting really ugly. She will push a way harder and quicker.


Yeah see up above. I wasn't suggesting you do those things NOW...but rather, even if she does file at some point in the future, you still have plenty of options to stall. I would do none of those things now. 



> I have been so fixed on this affair as being the problem. If that were over I have been thinking that would be the end all. The wife would come home we work on things and life would be grand. I have to at this point consider that is only a small part of the problem. I have to come to the relation and deal with the fact the wife wants out of being married for her own reason. Some reasons I will never understand. She has things she wants to do and experience in life with out being married. I have to deal with this and I just haven’t been.


I somewhat disagree with ya here, Jar. You are beginning to second guess yourself because you're starting to fall for/believe the disloyal dizziness. You see, your disloyal spouse will say and do anything to continue her addiction (namely the affair). She also does not want to accept any of the blame or take any personal responsibility for the affair. So, in order to deflect blame from herself to others, your wife will say things like "I haven't been happy for a long time" or "I don't love you like a wife should" or "This has nothing to do with the OM--I just don't love you anymore." I have to tell you, Jar, all disloyal spouses say things like this and I'd say about 90% of them don't really mean it. That's not to say they are deliberately lying but rather they that they are re-inventing the past and magnifying the negative whilst simultaneously looking at the OM and magnifying the positive. Thus a LOT of what she says right now really is not going to be logical, or make any sense. If you see that, just say to yourself, "Oh that's the disloyal dizziness that AC told me about." It is talk that just makes NO SENSE and doesn't seem to fit with the facts--okay?



> My therapists and I talked a lot today and she really helped me realize a few things. My issue is I don’t want this to happen at all costs and I am not dealing with certain emotions. She also explained things are happening really fast at this point and I am being made to feel like I have to do certain things that I don’t want to like get a divorce and sine on a dotted line. Heres the thing I am a supper defiant person. If I am being told what to do and I really don’t want to do it this is where I can become a real s&%* head. I go into shut down mode. When this happens I can get ruthless. I get angry and vindictive this is where I would just become a real pain in the butt. The wife would end up having even more ill will towards me and never want to come back to a person like this. I was already in this mode today. A friend had to talk me off the walls. I was ready for a battle. I don’t want to be a monster or be remembered by the wife as a person like this.


I have no doubt whatsoever this is one of the Love Extinguishers that put on the flame of love in your wife's heart. This will be the #1 thing you work on in Plan A--Carrot & Stick. 



> How about I just come to the mediation session and explain to her this is sudden and fast for me and I feel like it is out of control. Explain that I need to slow things way down and just ask her can we just separate for 5 months or so and that is it. Explain there is a lot of emotion driving our decision so it would give us a chance to calm before we go any further. But mostly explain that I need her to give me this separation time so that I can grieve and let her go and be ok about this. Explain to her that if she doesn’t give me this time that it will get ugly. Not because I want it to but because this is how I get when I am being forced to do something I don’t want to do. How about I explain to her that emotionally and mentally I can’t do this at this time because I am not at a place to let her go yet. Tell her this separation is all about my needs at this point and I need her to do this for me.


NOTE TO SELF, Jar. Your wife is in selfish-mode. She does not give a rip if you can or can not "deal with it" right now. So going this route--appealing to her heart-strings--will not mean anything to her right now. She'll probably respond with resentment at best. I do think that going to mediation and saying "This is going too fast and I request a 5 month separation, during which time I will pay for my apartment, car, and personal bills and she will pay for the house, her car and her own personal bills" would be fine. The end. Anything beyond that she's about 99% likely to say "So? Our whole marriage was about your needs and now it's about time I thought of MY needs!"


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## jar

I will have to look into that book. At this point I don’t think I could even talk to her about something like this.

I am noticing the wife has been on face book all week and it dawned on me why. She told me in passing that her affair partner was going back home to India for 2 weeks at her request to be with his family during the middle of June. So my guess he is out of the country right now. That leads me to believe that the pressure is not that stressful on the affair at this point. Maybe she will rethink things with him out of the country for a while. 

It’s on m mind and bothering me tonight...

JAR


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## jar

Affaircare once again you have given me much to think about especially about the bills and the funding. Thank you for clarifying everything for me. Everybody on this forum is awesome. When I say I have to pay my wife it is basically my half of the house hold bills. But I think you are right about funding this affair. Why do I have to pay half the cell phone and internet bill? This is there main means of communication.

As you can see some of my defiance and me wanting confrontation and ready to battle was coming out in my posts. Normally I am only like this when it comes to business dealings not something I ever direct towards the wife. It also only comes out when I am really pushed to the edge. This is going to take a lot of work to keep myself composed and not go to this place where I am manipulative and ready for a battle royal.  Affairecare you would not believe the sorts of shenanigans I have pulled when I have been in this mode in the past.

I have much to ponder for the rest of the night

JAR


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## jar

So I have been thinking a little bit more about some of these posts. First of all the reason I have to pay the wife is the mediator took at our monthly expenses and loans and split that number in half. So the reason I have to pay is many of these things are loans we both have our name on. But I could not pay internet and phone and probably could think up a few more. 

I guess the part I need some help on is my composure. How do I express what I want and hold my ground with out coming across as angry, defiant, or confrontational? I know I need to come across as confident and charming etc. I am going to need some coaching on how to do this.

I did hear form the wife today I over drew our joint checking account big time. hehehe. I also did transfer the money I agreed to and she thanked me. She also is sending me a few things I requested. So it was nice to hear from her in a civil manner. I am probably reading into things to much. I got the feeling that she was home and taking the day off.

So the affair dizziness here is what I don’t understand is she says she wants this divorce very clearly. Our marriage counselor is a hot shot counselor very highly respected etc. She has never brought up about this affair stuff. She also specializes in sexual types of disorders to. My wife counselor specializes in marriage counseling and again is a hot shot and is very well respected and then there is my counselor. None are saying don’t believe her. All are saying this is what your wife is telling you and what she wants. So my question is why isn’t her counselor working with her on this affair dizziness sort of stuff. I am second guessing my self big time. I am just her husband these other people are highly trained experienced physiologist. Why aren’t they talking about this stuff?



Lastly get this our mediator is 200 hundred an hour. Ok that’s a lot of money but lets put that a side. She came highly recommended. So I show up thinking mediation is going to be in an office or something. No I show up to this gorgeous house on top of a mountain in the country and we begin mediation at her dinning room table with her dog sitting by my feet. This seems unusual to me. She is very kind and sentimental and I like her. I am on the fence about being at her house and not at an office. Just really through me off guard. Guess this mediation is much more personal touchy feely thing being at her home and not at an office. I feel like we should have been having some tea and cakes instead talking divorce. Does this sound strange to you guys? Like I said I am on the fence with the whole thing.

JAR


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## turnera

> Why aren’t they talking about this stuff?


Because YOU aren't. 

Honestly, at this point I would just use plain logic. And bring up AFFAIRS at every opportunity. "My wife wants to break up because she's having an affair. I don't want to break up, so I have decided I will no longer go along with this peacefully, since it's her affair that is driving this and I no longer believe that she is the same person I used to know. Unless my wife stops her affair, I have no interest in coming to the table and being the one who just hands over my marriage."


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## jar

Turnera 

I think you are right about this. I am going to start brining it up as much as I can. See if it makes a difference.

I must admit I am getting really home sick. I miss my wife and my home. I am half tempted just to move back just so I can see my wife. But I also know her behavior and emotions will just drive me nuts. So at this point it is best for me to stay away for my own sanity.

This weekend was nice. I spent the day with my brother out in our boat. With the company of some ladies. I am still hung over and didn’t make it in to work today. Now I remember why I don’t get hammered any more. I hate being hung over. I haven’t been this way since college.

JAR


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## turnera

lol have you seen Get Him To The Greek? Lots and lots of hangovers. Great movie, btw.


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## jar

It is on my list to see.

I did some checking into our online finances today. Looks like the wife has not spent any money except for some on gas and groceries. Although as soon as I transfer her some cash on Friday she immediately transferred that money to her checking account. It gives me really good ammo for our next mediation session next week. I am not funding this affair. That money is for my part of the bills. Not for her.

JAR


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## turnera

Make sure you say that out loud. Good learning.


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## Affaircare

OH YEAH I agree!


Here's how this goes: you pay her $800 a month "for the bills" and she uses it to blow on the OM, doesn't pay a single bill, and you get stuck with no wife and bills that are MONTHS behind and creditors!

OH NO!!!!

In mediation you say this: "I owe $800/mo. toward our mutual bills but I will not give money to my wife blindly. I will pay the X bill, the Y bill and the Z bill myself and provide a copy to her within 3 days of the receipt of payment for those bills" 

Then you pay the bills in your name to the creditor directly--NOT to her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In addition, do not pay for her internet, her cell phone, or anything she's using to further the affair. Nope, if she wants to chase some other man she does that on HER OWN DIME!! You pay for heat, electricity maybe...your own car payment, health insurance, your own credit card, that kind of thing.


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## jar

Luckily the wife is very honest about our financials. Well so far. I am not assuming anything at this point. In fact it is something that she worries about constantly. Not having enough money. Which we have more than enough to get by on. So this moving of the money I deposited is an interesting game. 

This week I am really working on getting myself composed for our next mediation session next week. I really don’t want to come across as being defiant, angry, stubborn, or confrontational. I want to come across as the good guy. But I have some ground rules that need to be addressed and abided by. 

I guess the biggest thing is I don’t want to threaten or be manipulative or get really confrontational. I have been reading a lot about these behaviors in how to survive and affair. These types of things are love extinguishers according to my reading. I can see why. This is going to be really tough for me.

I can help but wonder what my odds are of getting my wife back. I keep wondering should I give up. The only people keeping me going is the people on this forum. 

Also her affair partner will be back in the country next week. I hope that the distance for the past two weeks doesn’t make there relationship even more intense and passionate etc. I want things to hurry up and be over.

JAR


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## jessi

jar, no one knows what the future holds, but giving up hope is for the weak, you sound like a strong man willing to fight at least for what is his ......if it doesn't work you will never need to question yourself on your commitment to your marriage, and you are the only one you can control and the only one that knows what is best for you and what will make you sleep at night in the end.....
I know from experience that a lot of the time it seems hopeless and I know that you love your wife, why would you go through this situation, she will eventually see it as well.....
(((hugs))))


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have been doing my reading of "Surviving" too. Patience. Patience. Do you have s positive thing or two you could say to her when you talk. Even something like,"Cute outfit". I have been trying to think of other nice things I can say for appreciation, but I am having trouble coming up with anything. Only appearance issues right now. If you come out with anything let me know.


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## turnera

You can admire how they fit so many things into so little time. 
How they always have your favorite drink in the fridge.
How you never run out of clean socks.
How they keep track of all the important phone numbers or papers or bills.
How the other moms admire her for volunteering.

Stuff like that.


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## jar

I was thinking of some of the same complements. Last meeting she had a new hair do I managed to eek out a complement on my way out the door. 

Finding things little things to complement her isn’t too hard. She’s always early and is always organized etc. I do have a lot of respect admiration for my wife and see a lot of good in her.

Giving up hope is for the week is an interesting statement. I just hope that by me holding on I am not hurting myself in the long run and setting my self up for even more devastation. I have to keep that balanced some how.

Fighting for what is mine is tough. I am not feeling to strong today. The last few days I have been haunted by images of her and him in bed doing god only knows what... It is really tough to look past today...I want my wife back and it sucks that I am waiting patently over hear for her....It hurts deeply that I am sharing her with another guy right now. Today the thought of this other guys hands all over her is making me sick...I am having a hard time getting this out of my head today. I am waiting patently while I know all of this is going on. 

This weekend I was around a couple of pretty ladies in there mid twenties. Things were very tempting...But I kept things at bay...Makes me think yeah I could trade the old cheating wife in for a newer better model…Wonder what that would be like…

JAR


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## turnera

Marriage Builders recommends that, once you expose the affair and you're waiting for it to end, that you set a timeline. Six months, or whatever. That way, you know you are giving your marriage a chance, but you're not being a chump, either. If she's not back by XX/XX/2010, you proceed with either a Plan B letter or legal separation.


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## iamnottheonlyone

As Harley likes to say, Plan A is not a life style. However, most of our married friends think 6 months is too short. Some of them may have experiences they are not sharing and as a result some knowledge about affairs.


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## turnera

I think it's an individual choice. Each of us knows what we are capable of enduring from a wayward spouse before we can't take any more.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yes.


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## Affaircare

Yep I agree turnera. 

I've known folks who were about 2 months and they really made efforts for 2 months and I agreed with them that was all they could take. I've also known folks who were about 2 years and they really kept working and kept working the whole time...and I agree with them too. 

I think of 6 months as a rough "rule of thumb" guideline. Usually it takes at least that long for committed changes to be made and consistently maintained, for the affair to "die down" and for the disloyal to notice the changes too. Thereafter some can endure longer and if they had paced themselves I see no reason not to continue if you can and you still have some kindling on the love fire. 

I wouldn't give up, jar. I would recommend a couple things:

1) I would recommend writing down what you're going to say at the mediators. That way you can re-write and re-write until you are happy with it. Also you can read it and be somewhat calmer as you read. 

2) I would also recommend that you MAKE SURE that the tone of what you write is respectful requests yet assertive. Assertive does not mean forcing your way on someone--it means that you state what you will and will not allow in your life and other people are free to decide for themselves what they do in their lives. You won't be walked on but you also will not walk on others either. Make sense?

3) Things to remember: 

This mediation is *VOLUNTARY* so if it's not something you volunteer to do, you do not have to even discuss it. This is not court-ordered, nor is it binding to you in any way nor enforcable unless you sign something. 
Before you go to mediation you may want to decide what you are and are not willing to negotiate, what you are and are not willing to discuss etc. 
I *VERY STRONGLY recommend* that before any more negotiating go on in mediation, that the mediator stop discussing divorce and "how to separate our stuff" and focus on resolving the issue of the repairing the marriage and ending the affair. If the mediator will not address this, I would STRONGLY recommend saying, 'Thank you then I decline to continue and will engage the services of a mediator who will resolve THAT conflict," close your briefcase, and leave the mediation.
I *very strongly recommend* changing the "money" to specifying that you will pay the X bill, the Y bill and the Z bill directly to the creditor and will no longer "pay her $XXX.00 per month" as you are not willing to finance her affair.

Now I warn you that your wife will probably not like it very much that you are bringing up her adultery, but the fact of the matter is that the unfaithfulness is what is killing the marriage. In order to deflect blame, she will very likely say she hasn't been happy for years, tell you that you aren't cooperating or that you're trying to control her, etc. She's going to be mad, so don't be surprised if that happens. That's quite okay. In her affair-dizzy mind, you are supposed to disappear but "still be friends" and still continue to pay her bills even though she wants to get rid of you and bring in another man. Jar, she is 100% completely free to choose another man if that is her choice--you can't stop her--but you can hold her to her vow, delay, not cooperate in killing the marriage, and discontinue paying for her to be with some other man! 

So be calm--be prepared--write down what you want to say. If they "ambush" you and you don't feel ready to reply in a well-thought-out way, just say over and over and over, "I'm not ready to agree to that and ask that we discuss it at another time." Just keep saying that. Okay? Got it?


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## jar

Affaircare when she gets angry and upset. What I am suppose to do at that point. Should I just sit there? Is there something I can say to calm the moment down? etc I know the intensity of her reaction will directly relate to my demeanor and the tone in which I explain my boundaries.

Everything that you listed in your posts is on today’s agenda with my therapist.


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## turnera

When a wayward is actively cheating, your best bet is to ignore everything they say. Just smile and nod your head and move on. Why? Because everything they say has ONE GOAL: to prolong and preserve their affair. NOTHING they say will be for your best interests, only theirs.

When you try to impose your boundaries, and your wayward screams at you, just smile and say 'Want a cookie?' That makes just as much sense as anything else you could possibly say to each other, so you might as well be generous. 

Just remain calm, loving, and strong. Repeat as many times as you have to, something like "I want my marriage. I want you to stop cheating. I will not stay in a marriage where you cheat, but I will not just grant you a divorce, either, so you can run away from your problems."


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## Affaircare

turnera said:


> Just remain calm, loving, and strong. Repeat as many times as you have to, something like *"I want my marriage. I want you to stop cheating. I will not stay in a marriage where you cheat, but I will not just grant you a divorce, either, so you can run away from your problems."*


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 


:allhail: well said turnera!


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## jar

So today I found a new place for me and the dog to live. I am going to move into a house with a coworker. The place is only a few years old and furnished. It is a gorgeous place that sits on 300 acres of land in the mountains. I am excited to get back into doing some dirt biking and snowmobiling. Something I haven’t had much time for in a number of years. 

It is also a bit unsettling as well. Living a single life again with a guy roommate. I think it will take a very long time for it to feel like home. It is very big change from the life that me and the wife built up around us.

On my 2 hour commute back to my families place today I kept thinking why could I not see all this coming. Why am I still in so much shock about the affair and the direction things have been headed in? I started to map out a timeline in my head. I thought I would write it down and share. Seems so obvious.


July 2000 – Met the wife and began dating wife 18 and I was 21

May 2003 – Wife graduates college and gets an apartment for the year

May 2004 – I graduate college and we move into an apartment together I begin my crazy carrier.

July 2005 – I wake up one morning with an saying to my self I can’t live with out this woman and I want to marry her. So I propose

September 2005 – we buy our house and move in

Aug 19 2006 – Big grand wedding and honey moon. 

September 2006 – We get a dog

Fall of 2007- I find out that the wife is having several emotional affairs with guys on line. I am devastated.

Winter of 2007 – We work on things and read a marriage book

Spring 2008 – I Find out wife is doing porno chat and having phone sex with random guys from the internet. I confront her and it stops completely. During this time the wife is with drawn and I feel she is down and depressed. I research depression and give her reading material about depression and urge her to see a counselor. We move on and repair things until….

June 2009 – Wife’s co worker is going through a bad break up. She tells me he needs a friend to talk to and ask how I feel about it. I say uncomfortable because of past history. But I then say I am ok with it because I know this guy. I also set the ground rules and ask her not to talk about us or our marriage. Things had been good with us for the past year and a half.

June-Sept 2009- Wife is very open about the situation and tells me everything that she and the coworker talk about.

Sept-Dec 2009 - Wife really never mentions OM name anymore.

Dec 1 2009 – I check the phone bill and find the both of them had been spending the last few months texting one anther 2000-3000 times a month. I never new the wife was into texting. I confronter her and explain how upset I am. She tells me they are friends and she is not happy. She also tells me that he is there for her.

Dec 5 2009 – I confront her about an affair. She admitted to it. She had been sneaking over to his apartment for about a month and making out with him. Day before thanksgiving they had sex. We stay up half the night talking. The wife moves out of our bedroom.

Dec 8 2009 – I get us into marriage therapy. Wife didn’t want to go and didn’t like the therapist because she asked her to recommit to the marriage. It is recommended we both get individual therapy. I also discover talk about marriage and begin researching and reading everything I can about marriage and affairs. I start Plan A

Dec 21 – My 31st birthday and our third marriage counseling session and we fire marriage counselor # 1. The wife didn’t like her. She felt that therapist was on my side. We some how get through the rest of the holidays. Also we each start one on one counseling and have gone to at least one session by now.

Jan 1- Wife is sick in bed and broken hearted. I stay with her the whole time and listen to her…hold her..take care of her… OM went back to x girlfriend. We reconnect a bit and have a nice new year’s dinner with friends. Rest of the month our emotions are all over the place. 

Feb 1 – wife wants to go back to counseling and we find a new kick butt counselor. We begin to work on things. We also sneak down to Boston for a long weekend and check out the city just to get away.

Feb 14 – We have an amazing romantic valentines day at home. Candles, fire, chocolates etc. Really nice..

Mar 1- Things start going down hill again and fast. The wife is barley talking and doesn’t know if she wants to leave or stay. She is very withdrawn from everything and I am a nervous wreck. OM has broken up with x girlfriend again. He is back to pestering the wife at work all day long. Buying her gifts emailing her etc..Telling her that they are sole mates…he won’t quit. She tells me that she asks him to leave her alone every day and or ignores him. He also goes out and gets his first tattoo with her initials hidden in the design..lots of drama. I continue to be there the best I can. I listen go to therapy and work on myself the best I can. I begin taking anxiety and depression meds.

Mar 22 - At this time my wife moves her desk and changes her working environment to get away from OM. She also gives me all passwords to her email, facebook,,,etc

Mar 23 – The wife checks into a nice hotel for two weeks near her work to get a way. It was sudden and after couples therapy session. Trial separation period is two weeks. Ground rules no communication except for a nightly late night text saying goodnight and I am safe so we don’t worry about one another. I panic and call her family and counselor. I am really worried and scared. Her family knows nothing of what is going on. I break the news although they had there suspicions \. I asked them to take care of her. She also begins looking at apartments. I am very confused

April – I have lost basically all hope in my wife returning home. I continue to take care of the house, myself, the dog etc…I am convinced she will want a divorce…I also tell all details of the affair to her brother in law and many friends and family.

April 7- We meet for the first time after two weeks of separation at our marriage counselors. The wife returns home after counseling. She is still unsure and confused.

April 8- I get home from work and the wife says you know what I am back. I am jumping into this marriage with both feet. The affair is over…Lets do this and figure it out. I am shocked…She even moves back into our room.

April - Now the real work begins and we start to gaining traction and working on our marriage. Wife is a bit ambivalent towards me during this time.

May– The wife meets me in Florida for a fun weekend at Disney…Her first time going. We have a great time…Still working on the marriage and continue to gain traction slowly. Our counselor comments on how hard we are working and how much we have come along. We are smiling and having fun again. We also have a few short term plans for summer made…Still no affection what so ever between us and it begins to really bother me. She is also not saying I love you much any more.

May 27 – The wife comes to me and tells me the affair never ended. She is still seeing him. She was even with him before she met me in Disney. We talk about everything for the past two months. I still didn’t get to angry…I am also deeply hurt and in shock all over again.

May 28 – I pack a duffle bag and the dogs things and leave. I was very emotional and angry.

May 30 – I return home to meet her and explain why I left. I also explain the ground rules. (End the affair or lose me for ever) I basically start Plan b and posting on talk about marriage

June 1 – We meet at marriage counseling and the wife says she wants a divorce. The counselor is even a bit surprised and didn’t see this coming exactly. I get very angry and upset and say many things I do not mean during counseling.


June 5 – The wife contacts a mediator and moves towards putting our house up for sale with out me.

June 8 –Plan B letter is written and sent to the wife. We continue to have no communication.

June 11- Mediator slows down the wife and has her cancel realtor meetings on my behalf

June 15 – First mediation session. Emotional experience…The wife shows up with a list of all of our possessions organized room by room. Right down to forks and spoons and pens and pencils.

To be continued…..


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,
The timeline was helpful in better understanding your situation. Boy did she have some wild swings. And the OP is wacked. What can I say?


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## turnera

Sorry, but you're better off without her.

There ARE good women out there who ONLY WANT ONE GUY.

She has wanted MANY MANY GUYS her *entire* marriage.


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## jar

The only explanation I ever got for her past behavior was that part of it was to get my attention. The other part is these people made her feel less lonely and important. The phone sex stuff made her feel wanted and attractive and helped her self esteem and confidence. That is the only explanation I ever got from her. Not sure if it is BS or not. Like I said things seems pretty obvious when you map things out. Still surprised I never saw it coming. A few years ago we should have been more proactive with working on our relationship and affair proofing our marriage. Those events should have been more of a wake up call. Maybe we would not be in a situation like this now.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I agree. Same for my relationship. I just let it roll along. I have now calendared "refresher courses" so that I don't get sloppy and lazy. If only I had know 5 months ago what I know now, things would likely be different and I would be in the mess I'm in now. Hopefully I will have that refresher course with my wife. But if I am with someone else, I will do the same.


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## jar

This weekend was a nice weekend I caught up on some much need sleep. I also got my self pretty well organized for mediation this week. I got a few financial spreadsheets put together and I also have my script and agenda figured out for mediation. I spent a lot of time re reading my posts and everyone’s responses. I also just finished surviving the affair. It was a very insightful book. I plan to bring it and a copy of the questioners to mediation and give them to the wife. I feel like I am in a good place and ready for this meeting on Tuesday. 

I think I clearly know what my boundaries are
I know what I am willing to do and what I won’t do
I am ready for this mediation and at this point in time I have the right mindset. I think I will b able to pull this off with out coming off as a confrontational defiant etc.

I just wanted to thank everyone for talking me through this the past few weeks. It has helped a lot.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,

I think the book is for us not her. She is not at the point where it will matter. She will just toss the questionairre. She will feel you are trying to make her do something. You can only work on you. Plan A. I expect you are prepared. However, Is your plan still to keep the focus on the marriage. Are you planning to deal with both issues?


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## jar

You know I have been reconsidering sharing surviving the affair book with her. I think you are right about it being for us and not the wife. Plus if I share it with her she will have insight into exactly what I am doing with plan A and B.

My plan is to keep the focus on the marriage and not a divorce and see how that goes. I have a lot to say about that. I also have some accounting things that need to be brought up and revisited so that is the other part that I am planning for mediation. I plan to contribute less than half of what I originally agreed to in our first mediation session. I have a lot of back up to prove my point of view on things.

As crazy as it sounds I am looking forward to seeing my wife. It has been almost 3 weeks. I am constantly wondering how she is and what she is doing. A few times I almost broke down and contacted her but I held my ground and didn’t do it.

iamnottheonlyone I have been reading through your posts. Still not finished yet. It has been very helpful with my situation.

JAR


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## turnera

One of your weapons against her affair is financial. Don't support it. Plan A like crazy, but always stand your ground when it comes to paying her to cheat. And I would be that blunt about it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

You have learned much in a few weeks. Don't let her learn your Plan A. Share only what you must. Knowledge is power!


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## jar

So I am not sure how to respond to this one. Our mediator canceled today. She had to put her dog down and she was really upset. So we had to reschedule for Thursday. I am disappointed because I was looking forward to seeing my wife and I went to the effort of getting dressed up today. Also today was the day I was going to redefine boundaries and re work our financial agreement. Neither the mediator nor my wife have a heads up on the agenda. So shortly after we rescheduled the mediator I got this email from my wife and I am un sure how to respond.

******************************************************************************
I’m sorry to bother you I know you want no contact, and I wouldn’t be emailing if I didn’t think it was necessary. I wouldn’t have if mediator hadn’t had to cancel the appointment today. Your credit card bill is due on Wednesday the 1st, and as I said we have xxxx dollars that is both our debt. I was thinking to pay my half of that xxxx you could just put 150.00 into the joint account on the 1st instead of the agreed xxxx, so that I will have paid off my half of the amount. Also this means you will have to pay the credit card yourself. You will want to pay this today or tomorrow if possible, otherwise you will have interest added. I will make sure you get the credit card bill on Thursday. Again sorry to bother you. And please know I am not trying to tell you what to do just trying to do my part with this bill and make sure you don’t get a bunch of unnecessary interest. Let me know if this arrangement works for you. 
Also, if you need anything at the house please feel free to stop by and get it. (clothes, etc. ) I have Annabelle’s (the dog) stuff in the trunk of my car and will get it to you on Thursday, let me know if there is anything else you need. 
Take care, 

What she does not know is there is no deal at this point. My old self just wants to write back and tell her there is no deal and that I have no plans of transferring money to our joint account until after mediation. Should I respond and give her a heads up. I am unsure of what to say or do at this point. 

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

It is a very reasonable email. She is very caring in tone (Sorry to bother you.) So she's thinking of you. Maybe not hard enough for your tastes. She would probably want a caring response. But that is a double edged sword. My call would be to stick with the NC letter's text. Have a third party contact her.


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## Affaircare

I would suggest doing what you need to do to remove yourself from the joint account, and let her figure out how to pay for her affair on her own. One thing is certain though--don't deposit to the joint account!! Then just decide if paying the card bill in total (to avoid interest) is more important...or if getting an interest charge is acceptable in place of straightening out the finances first. 

As I have always said, if she's going to pursue adultery, do not finance it. If you have "joint bills" I suggest something like "you pay X, Y, Z bills directly and I'll pay A, B, C bills directly." Do NOT (repeat: *NOT*) pay her your half and trust her to use that to pay the bills!!!!! She can pay the mortgage, and if it would ruin your credit somehow, then YOU move home and pay it and let her get an apartment.

BTW, Iam is correct--your response doesn't need to be harsh or uncaring. I would suggest something like this: "Thanks for the heads up but I'll live with the interest this month. I would rather not deposit to the joint account any longer. See you on Thursday!"


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## jar

affaircare and iamnottheonlyone

It is a pleasant respectful email and it seems she understands my position and respecting my boundaries at this point which is nice. However the underlying thing in the email is the affair is still in full tilt. This bothers me much. I hope there not even closer at this point.

For Thursday’s meeting I have reworked all of our financials over the past two weeks and have very clear boundaries for what I will and won’t do at this point and what xyz bills I will contribute to. Basically I don’t even plan to contribute to even half of what we discussed during our last session. I have all kinds of numbers to prove my point. But most of all I am not willing to fund this affair. I have written a script of bullet points that I need to say. I plan to bring up the affair a lot during this meeting. My goal at this point is to really put the affair under a lot of stress and make things really uncomfortable. I don’t think the affair is at that point yet seeing how he has been away for the past two weeks.

Mentally I think I am in a good place and ready for the meeting. I have really put a lot of thought and time to prepare for this. I don’t want to come across like my old self that I have previously mentioned.

JAR


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## Affaircare

You sound like you are in control of yourself, prepared, and ready to be calm but firm. That is a PERFECT place to be. 

You are going to be communicating to her some real life, jar. In real life, your husband does not pay for you to have a lover. In real life, if you want to have a lover, you pay your own way or loverboy (or girl) funds it. But nope, your husband does not. You get the "benefits" of husband and his finances when you are in the marriage with husband. 

This is why we call the first stage "Carrot & Stick" though--you can show her some of the benefits of being with you (carrot) and also some of the things she'll be losing by choosing the OM (stick). Just like training any dog, you use both the positive and the negative reinforcement! She'll learn faster! 

And finally, yeah no need to be a jerk or anything. Just be civil but firm, and bring your numbers and proof into the mediation. And further, if you can not agree in mediation just remember it is voluntary. You do not have to volunteer to pay ANY! 

You can also contact any bills that you're worried about and just change the billing address. Rent a box at the local "Mail Boxes, Etc." type place and that can be your permanent address until you get settled into an apartment with a lease. Then just contact the bills you're worried about, redirect mail to your Mail Box, and you're all set.


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## jar

Nothing to new to report today. Just trying to get ready for tomorrows meeting. 

So ended up taking your advice affaicare and wrote this to my wife last night.

Thanks for the heads up 

I'll live with the interest this month. I would rather not deposit to the joint account until after our mediation appointment.

See you on Thursday 

This was her response

Ok that's up to you however a minimum payment is still due by tomorrow or they will charge us a fee, and that will affect ur credit score


She really worries about bills and money a lot. It is hard not to read into this message. But it would seem that my response is bothering her. I image that she must have an idea what is about to go down tomorrow.

Since mediation is at our mediator’s house and she was really broken up when I talked to her about her dog dying. I think I am going to show up with some sympathy flowers. It is something that I would do. Does that sound weird? Plus it would be a carat and stick kind of thing with my wife.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

One late payment is not going to hurt your credit score. If you have credit cards with sufficient limits to run your daily lives, nothing will change.

Bring the flowers. Show everyone what kind of man you are, kind and caring. Plan A attitude all the way.


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## karole

It may not hurt your credit score but they can certainly jack your interest rate up to an astronomical amount.


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## Affaircare

And...why can't YOU make the minimum payment again? Why do all the bill payments have to go through her again? You're an adult right? So if she's worried and you would like to pay this bill minimum payment, ask her to give you the bill so you can make the payment today or online tonight.

It just does NOT need to go through her!


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## jar

Kind of crazy right. We are not credit card people. The balance is only a few hundred bucks. Something we planed to pay off this month any way. I made the min payment last night. She has always really controlled our finances and really has kept me out of them even when I tried to help or make recommendations on things that we could do different. This is going to be a big change for her to get use to.

Meeting is today. I am still in a good place for it and well prepared. I am hoping it goes well.


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## losinglove

good luck, Stay strong and don't fold.


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## michzz

Pay it off and cancel the card!

This credit card is a distraction from the main issues. And it is a potential risk to you if she gets pissed and starts charging.


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## Tanelornpete

> This credit card is a distraction from the main issues. And it is a potential risk to you if she gets pissed and starts charging.


Wow do I agree! This is called majoring in minors. Get rid of it, and move the attention back to the marriage. And yes, she WILL use that if she gets angry enough. Been through that one!


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## jar

Luckily we never got joint credit cards. So my account only has one card and it is in my name and I have the card. She is so focused on this because a few weeks ago we took a trip to Disney and used my card to pay for everything. So she feels responsible for half the debt.

JAR


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## Affaircare

Sooooooo.... ...how did it go?

Curious minds want to know....


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## jar

Affaircare it went exactly how you and the books said it would go. She was very pissed off and continues to be today...She keeps texting me. She is not getting her way at all...hehehehe

I will have a more detailed response later tonight. It was late when I got home and didn’t finish writing down everything that I wanted to post...I will later today...It is a busy day here in the office...

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I can't wait to read it. I am glad things went as expected.


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## jar

So last night was mediation...

I walked in looking like a million bucks. Nice clothes...new cologne...nice haircut etc...And my chin up...I also walked in with some nice flowers for the mediator...Her dog just died this week and she was very sad about it. The mediator was very excited about them…A Few times I caught the wife eyeing me.

So I explained where I was coming from to the mediator. That this isn’t what I want. I talked about the affair. I talked about wanting the wife to recommit to the marriage. I even said I love my wife. Wife shut down during this didn’t want to hear it. She said it is over between us etc. I told the wife I hear what you are saying I told her I am just trying to explain how I feel to our mediator so she understands how I feel. I talked that I didn’t feel that I was heard during the last meeting and that this wasn’t neutral. I brought up the affair...adultry...vows...and commitment a lot during our conversations...I explained how painful this was for me...That I need lots of time...I also explained that I was not here to talk divorce or how to divide things up and that I am not at this stage...The wife was pissed to say the least. She even said go a head keep bring up the affair. Then she got really mad when I said we need to revisit the finances. The only thing I am on the hook for now is half the mortgage...1/2 the boat payment which I have and she does not use...and part of an insurance payment...The dollar figure is a tad hire than what I proposed but I ran out of arguments towards the end. The obvious one I should have brought up again was hay I don’t live there. But I am much more comfortable with it. The wife was really mad about the lawn mower being busted. I was in the process of fixing the day I left and not being able to use the weed whacker. She had to hire a lawn mower guy twice she said. So mediator started to bring up the fact house cost a lot more. I said hay I am not supporting her and my wife is perfectly capable of using the mower and getting it fixed and does not need me to take care of it. The wife went on about how stressed she was about this.

The dog came up again it is a sore subject for her. So I said hay lets talk about it. Would you like her to live with you part of the time? She started to back out of it saying I think she would do better at just one place etc...So we worked out dog custody few weeks with her then me.

At one point she started threatening me saying you need to deal with the house being sold and splitting our possessions. I explained I don’t have to do anything I don’t want. She even said I will take legal action against you to make you do it. I said I just need time it has only been a month for processing. I said if you want to go down this road we can. Told my attorneys name etc. I then said if we go down the attorney road I will end up getting the kind of time I need to work through my own emotional stuff.

I even said what is the big rush. She explained how trapped she felt in the house and in life etc. I said I am not going to make this fast just because that is what you want. I again said I am not ready to discus these things and wasn’t in a place where I could do so. 

We then talked a bit about me moving back and her moving out. I said I would consider it. The wife said she would move out and take half of everything when she moved and we would half to work that out. I then said honestly I don’t want to move back home it is to painful for me. I also explained I don’t want to sell our house because it was too painful to get rid of our home. She made some nasty comments about never liking our house and hating where we live. These are not true statements at all. 

When the money debate got heated I even said we should come back to this later and readdress it.

The wife didn’t like hearing about my new place. She then wanted me to get my big saltwater aquarium out of the house. Which I repeated I can’t do it for a month. My new aquarium is being hand made and won’t be in for a month and I don’t have room for the big one. She is like I can’t deal with it any more it is to much work. She hates the thing and has never ever even fed the fish up until now. I thanked her for doing this for me. She said it is too much to deal with and that she was stressed.

So basically the wife was really angry and said many hurtful things to me. About being unhappy etc...Many of the affair dizzy things...Towards the end I was getting up set and teared up pretty bad. It was exactly what everyone told me was going to happen and it went exactly according to the books as well. So thank you everyone for preparing me for this. I feel like today I stood up for my self and won some of my dignity back even know I got teary eyed at the end. I stood my ground made my points made it clear what I needed etc.

So at the very end of all this mediator closed her book and took her glass off and says hay I get it. You are in a really painful place with the affair, moving, loving your wife while she wants a divorce. Then she said to my wife I see where you are with wanting out and how you feel about wanting to get your new relationship going and feeling trapped in the house...She is like I get it...She explained to my wife that these things take a lot of time and what we accomplished today was about 3 months of lawyer work. She explained you really don’t want to go there with lawyers. It gets so expensive and can really drag on forever. Basically she told my wife two things she didn’t want to hear. Expensive and long time.

So we are scheduled to go back in a month. I asked what the agenda will be. The wife said discus the sail of our home. I said that is not what I want to discus. I want to talk more about the affair ending and working on marriage. The mediator said that was something for marriage therapists and that she couldn’t help in that department. I said fair enough I told her that I probably would not be back because this was not the direction I want to head in. Again the wife didnt like this. I also said lets pencil something in and see where we are in a month. So I think I got the mediator understand my side of things at this point.

So I think I did ok tonight. Stated my case held my ground. Showed some emotion and expressed some feelings...Looked good. Made a few complements...and kept the love buster kind of stuff to a minimum I also kept my defiance to a minimum I think…

So I walked out feeling like I won tonight...The wife went flying by me on the interstate on the way home didn’t even wave she was probably doing about 90mph...I think she is stressed at this point with the money. She is feeling trapped at home. She isn’t getting her way with things moving really fast and she even brought up that she might be loosing her job in December. I just said I am sorry to hear that I know how it feels. I hope that the affair is under some pressure at this point. 

So we will see what unfolds. Thank you everyone for everything. Things went according to plan. I can’t say I am too hopeful at this point she was really cold and negative again. But I felt like I came out a head. I also feel like it might be good for once for her to be stressed out of her mind and have to get her self out of this on her own. She also agreed that the OM would not step foot on our property or be around our dog.

Thanks again

JAR


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> Affaircare it went exactly how you and the books said it would go. She was very pissed off and continues to be today...She keeps texting me. She is not getting her way at all...hehehehe
> 
> I will have a more detailed response later tonight. It was late when I got home and didn’t finish writing down everything that I wanted to post...I will later today...It is a busy day here in the office...


It's okay--take your time. Obviously I'm hanging here and in no rush! :lol:

I'm not at all surprised that things went as they did. I'm very proud of you for being brave enough to actually do something to help save your marriage, and I'm especially proud because I know it feels completely the opposite--like you are doing the exact wrong thing. But Jar, I hope you will be encouraged and remember one thing: a marriage can survive anger--it can NOT survive an active affair! As she fusses and fumes, please remind yourself that she is an addict and you are trying to take away her addiction, so naturally she's going to threaten and say all kinds of mean, nasty, hurtful things. Her goal is to do anything necessary to get her addiction back. Honestly? Just ignore it for the most part--let her whirlwind and don't let her suck you in.


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## jar

update above


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## turnera

Just freakin' absolutely wonderful!

And one of the most perfect, stand up for your marriage things I have ever heard:


> I said fair enough I told her that I probably would not be back because this was not the direction I want to head in.


She is now having to get OM to meet ALL her Emotional Needs, and I GUARANTEE you he NEVER had any intention of being stuck with all THAT! That's one of the best ways to destroy an affair - make the WS and OM/OW have to play 'house' and see how they deal with all the 'real' everyday issues; no longer can she see him only when she's on top of the world - he has to deal with her crap now. And I'm sure it ain't a pretty site! He likely won't be around for long.

And even if they did end up together, you have SHATTERED her picture perfect view of how she could just change out one life for another. Anything she does now, her family knows, her friends know, everyone knows she's been a fool. Hard to go to bed happy with that.


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## turnera

Don't forget, standing up for your marriage and refusing to 'go along' with her affair is NOT lovebusting. Lovebusting is calling her a name, or stealing money from her that you owe her, or putting an ad in the local paper.


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## Affaircare

Haha! Oh I was posting while you were posting! 

JAR! Very good job! Remember now in this stage (Plan A/Carrot & Stick) that the goal is to to show her the carrot of how good it could be to end the affair and recommit to the marriage...and simultaneously show her how costly continuing the affair will be. 

Sooooo...you did a good job standing up for yourself but not being defiant. EXCELLENT! You did a good job being sensitive to the mediator and showing some emotion. EXCELLENT! And you did a good job letting her know that her choice to continue the affair is going to cost her some things that she holds dear. 

I would say two things. #1--Get yourself a little reward. Ya done good! #2--For today for the most part, lay low and don't respond to her if she contacts you...not to be mean but more like "taking a day off." If you're so inclined this may be a great day to pray for your wife, because today she is probably really under the pressure of admitting to herself that the affair is not reality...and that reality BITES! So she's probably going to be hurting a lot today and a praying would do you good (reconnecting to your spiritual life) and couldn't hurt her.


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## michzz

One thing I want to point out to you is that if your wife loses her job or quits it "because of emotional stress" you will be impacted financially. Depending on where you live it could trigger you having to pay spousal support or higher levels of support than you may already be on tap to pay.

Be strategic.


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## jar

So it is 4am and I am exhausted. I can’t sleep I keep replaying the past few days in my head. So I figured I would post yesterday’s texting drama that started first thing in the morning and went most of the day.

The subject is our dog Annabelle who we both love to death. My wife misses her deeply. I agreed to joint custody and that I would drop her off at daycare and the wife would pick her up on Monday. Yeah that’s right we bring our dog to daycare once a week so she can be social and play with her friends while we are at work. The only problem is day care is closed on Monday for the long weekend and it is about 40 min out of my way…During mediation I also detected that the wife has some sort of big plans for the weekend…I think with OM..

Wife-day care is not open on Monday...Are you going to drop her off on Tuesday or Monday at our house

Me-I cant take her to the house...Tuesday is not convenient because it is out of my way…I can drop her off at daycare on Saturday but I was looking forward to spending this weekend with her.

Wife-Well daycare is in agreement and you picking her up there in a 3 weeks will not be any less convenient…So Tuesday or meet me somewhere on Monday

Me- So Tuesday does not work for me…I am not willing to meet with you face to face at this point…So if you can find a neutral place for me to drop her off on Monday I am willing to do this. Or I can drop her off on Saturday and sacrifice spending the weekend with her….The pickup would be convenient because I would plan to pick her up after my weekly doctor’s appointment which is right near daycare.

Wife-Tuesday was the agreed day and they are not doing daycare on Monday…Maybe you could drop her off at H’s house (wife’s friend who is also a co worker)

Me- Sorry I am not willing to in convince myself to accommodate your schedule…You want to split the custody of the dog I am fine with that…When we left mediation I was under the impression that you call an figure out a mutual time…I was unaware I made an agreement fro Tuesday…I would prefer a neutral drop off and pick up…I don’t feel H’s is neutral….I am willing to drop her off there but be a where I plan to speak with her about the details of our marriage and your affair so if you are cool with that I am cool.

Wife-I am not asking H and she knows about the affair. and I am not accommodating your schedule as well this in not one sided accommodation…Pick a time Monday and we can meet in a parking lot and you can put her in my car. I will be in a store waiting for you saying you are here…

Me- That is fine I have offered two different dates that don’t work for either one of us…so next date that I have available is a week from Saturday…I will be passing by on my way to my family’s…also I am not ok with the parking lot option…

Wife- Well you’re not comfortable with anything so I am not the one being difficult here…

Me- sorry you feel I am being difficult…I need my space form you right now…again I can do sat or Monday if you can figure something out or a week from sat...

Wife- I will get back to you in a few

Wife- They are open on sat…I will pick her up at 11am

Me- Ok I will have her dropped off by then…

Wife-I need her xyz

Me- Ok…also don’t forget she is scared of fireworks

Wife- I know my own dog…

So kind of interesting….My wife broke all of her weekend plans and chose to be with our dog…OM apartment does not allow dogs…Wife also promised in mediation that OM would not step foot on our property or ever be around our dog….So interesting turn of events…I think I had her stressed out pretty good over this one…

Also got a really nice email from the mediator thanking me for the flowers

JAR


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## turnera

Sounds good. I just want to point out that, since it is SHE who's cheating, you don't HAVE to go through with these personally agreed upon arrangements. You don't HAVE to do ANYTHING for her. Not telling you to dis her, but just be aware of it in the back of your mind.


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## michzz

Ok, I am going to take a different tack.

I mean no disrespect, I've owned several dogs over the years and have been attached to them.

That said---it's a dog. You two fighting over who gets to visit is just too much. You need to cut the cord. Either she gets the dog 100% or you do.

This agreement and all the bargaining bout where to pick up the dog, who gets the dog when, and then the pressuring for time outside the agreement? Too much drama!

Be free of it all. Let her have the dog.

Move on.


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## jar

michzz

Point taken it is drama and it is stupid it’s only a dog....I am looking forward to getaway from it all...at least I know she has to come home at night to take care of her.

I move into my new place on Monday. I am looking forward to it. It is near work and I won’t half to commute 100 miles to work anymore.

Today I went shopping for stuff for the new place. Things all just kind of hit me this afternoon. 

Affaircare I took your advice I treated myself to a nice TV for the new place

JAR


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## jar

Affaircare you are right everything seems counterproductive today.

Today is a special day for me and the wife. 10 years ago today we met. 5 years ago today I proposed. We always made it a appoint to do something special together for the 4th. I have heard nothing from her today. Kind of sad about this…

A few people on here have told me to get over her and move on. All of my family tells me the same thing. Yesterday I was speaking with my mother and she asked what’s wrong. I told her I want my wife back and my life…She told me that I do not want her back she is not worth it…It was tough to hear…

So today was a really nice day I spent the day boating with family and friends. It was really nice and relaxing. A few friends brought there g/f and they were all really gorgeous. (I am a sucker for pretty girls in bikinis) The other thing that I noticed about all of them was they were laid back no drama...One girl I ruined her cell phone and she was like no bigie…If that was my wife she would have flipped out and been pissed for a day…My bro says there is a girl like this out there waiting for me some where…Makes me really think I could have a better life with an amazing woman…The problem is I love my wife and I married her for all her strengths and weaknesses and still have hopes of an amazing life with her….I am actually considering she may be right along with everyone else…There are better fish in the sea.


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## jar

Well I moved into my new place last night. While unpacking reality hit me really hard. I didn’t sleep much last night and I am fairly depressed today. I am really struggling this morning graphic images of her and him together etc…I am keep asking my self is she really worth it? I continue to have no contact with my wife…I am thinking about looking into no trespassing and restraining orders to keep the OM out of my house and my property. The wife promises that she won’t allow him over. But I can’t trust her. I mostly want to do this just to cause drama…Not a very good reason…figure I would right about it rather than actually do it.

JAR


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## turnera

I would definitely look into filing the RO about OM. Or at least let her know that if you find out, you will. FIGHT the affair, _and _Plan A.


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## jar

I have threatened the RO now twice and she seems to be taking me very seriously on that one. I have also explained I will no longer contribute anything to the morgage if OM steps foot any where near our home. So I think the point is across. She actually brought it up in mediation. She also knows I am not one to make ideal threats or bluff on matters like this so I think the message is very clear to her. She explained OM has no desire to come into our home.


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## jar

Well I thought I would give an update…Basically I have made it through the week at my new place. I am completely moved in and organized. The place does not feel like home yet and feels really foreign. 

As for the wife. She has texted me a few times this week. First time she wanted me to help her get our cell phone account split. She needed me to release her number off the account or something. I politely responded she needed to call them and figure it out and if she needed my involvement to have Att&t call me. We went back and forth on this one a bunch she was rather testy about it all. I am not sure why maybe because I wasn’t being very helpful.

Last night she texted me telling me my prized coral and fish in my marine aquarium died because of the heat. She told me I better come home and take care of it this weekend. I am really kind of said about this actually. Anyway I just thanked her for the update and asked if she would get the dead fish out. If she couldn’t I told her to just leave it until next month. In august I am suppose to go back home and take everything apart and get rid of it. I again thanked her for taking care of everything while I was away. I got no response.

So I still wonder if no contact is a good thing. I do know it has been good for me to regroup and focus my energy on myself. Only problem is the wife can’t see the changes I have made. I also find it interesting that she sort of checks in with me every few days. I also find it interesting that she has done everything that I have asked of her during this time. Respected my space virtually no contact splitting of the bills etc. The only thing that she hasn’t done is ended the affair. I feel like I am loosing her more and more. I also miss my dog and home.

Feeling a bit lost today. This weekend I am going to pick up his needs her needs. I also plan to get through the questioners in the surviving the affair book. I am hoping this helps. 

This weekend I am spending time with family and relatives. Her sister’s birthday is today. I am not sure if I am supposed to send a card or not. But I think I am. I miss her family and my nieces a ton right now.

Jar


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## jessi

Jar, 
Take care of yourself and keep busy with friends, family, working out......take advantage of the great weather......your dog....
Let her feel what life is like without you.....she has made her bed so to speak, let her find out who the OM really is, it's no longer fantasy it's now reality, faults and all......
I wouldn't be so quick to respond to her emails, texts.....make her wait, make her think you are moving on with your life and she isn't part of that anymore.....
It will feel, different for a while but hang in there, let it all play out and see what happens......
Send the sister a card, she was part of your life and you hers.....nothing wrong with that.....shows you care.....


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## iamnottheonlyone

Play nice. I am in the same boat with the no contact. How can she see the change if she doesn't communicate? I suggest any contact you do have should be as pleasant as possible. You need to show her what she is missing.
Drag this out. You want her to experience real life with the OM. Once he is a regular guy she can then compare you to him using the same standard. He thinks he has her so he will let his guard down. You will not waiver. Can you last a few more months. CMF told me this morning it was a couple of months with very little contact. She wasn't even here getting help. She kept it together on her own. You have help and support. We are here for you. Be strong. Take the long view. Be patient. Chant my mantra: patience, patience, patience.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar, I think the hard part about the no contact approach is not having some sort of lifeline to create contact. It is an odd thing to say, but we know there will be contact when we still share things. Whether it is kids or pets, bills or cars. So the 5 days I have not had contact despite having a child has been difficult, not just for me but for my son. Still, I know that she will talk to me at some point. Two weeks ago I got a call from her when she got in from London that, in a somewhat pleading voice, said she was checking in to see how things were going. The little bit of contact we have gives us some reassurance that we are doing the right thing.


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## turnera

I'm so sorry about your fish. iam is right - no matter what you do, stay polite, calm, upbeat, strong, and show her what she's missing.

This is the hard part for you. In this period, you are not getting anything, and it sucks. But you have to ask yourself if you want your marriage. If you do, you have to look at this period - these 6 months or so - as something like boot camp - crappy time, lots of work, NO positive feedback...it's really hard. It gets you wondering if it's worth it. So you have to really have a good hard talk with yourself.

If you are going to fight for the marriage, just put your game face on and muddle through it, keeping a cutoff time in mind - "I will do this for X months and if I don't get her back at the end of X months, I am MOVING ON."

What that does is let you survive the hell you're in, because you know there's an END. One way or the other, ok?

What are you reading right now?


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## jar

Thanks for the feed back. 

I just picked up his needs her needs tonight. I am also working on a number of questioners from affair cares website and from surviving an affair. 

I also picked up a book called more than just friends. My wife read it when all this started and I was hoping that it will give me some more insight into affairs.

A friend recommends I also read a book called too bad to stay too good to leave. I might check this book out after I get through the other two.

I am tacking this time to really regroup and work on myself. I have a lot to figure out. I don’t know how I will feel tomorrow or 6 months from now but I am open to the possibility that my feeling might change and I may be the one that wants a divorce. 

In terms of my time line I am giving myself a lot of time. I am giving myself 1 year. I hope I have the strength to wait that long before moving on.

I am staying positive an up beat the best I can. I have made some new friends recently and I am looking forward to spending more time with them. I also really like my new roommate. I have a few new activities / hobbies that I want to try as well. Long term I know I can get through this. 

The part that has me down is the no contact. I miss my wife and her family very much. I sent her sister and her mom birthday gifts and cards today. The other part is we have no kids and different social circles. Also are families live a few hours apart so I don’t see us seeing one anther very often if ever. I also have to be really careful. The wife is in a big rush for a divorce. I am trying to really slow things down but I don’t know how long I can hold her off.

Is there anything I can do at this time? I am hoping her affair ends soon.

JAR


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## flowergirl77

jar said:


> Well I thought I would give an update…Basically I have made it through the week at my new place. I am completely moved in and organized. The place does not feel like home yet and feels really foreign.
> 
> As for the wife. She has texted me a few times this week. First time she wanted me to help her get our cell phone account split. She needed me to release her number off the account or something. I politely responded she needed to call them and figure it out and if she needed my involvement to have Att&t call me. We went back and forth on this one a bunch she was rather testy about it all. I am not sure why maybe because I wasn’t being very helpful.
> 
> Last night she texted me telling me my prized coral and fish in my marine aquarium died because of the heat. She told me I better come home and take care of it this weekend. I am really kind of said about this actually. Anyway I just thanked her for the update and asked if she would get the dead fish out. If she couldn’t I told her to just leave it until next month. In august I am suppose to go back home and take everything apart and get rid of it. I again thanked her for taking care of everything while I was away. I got no response.
> 
> So I still wonder if no contact is a good thing. I do know it has been good for me to regroup and focus my energy on myself. Only problem is the wife can’t see the changes I have made. I also find it interesting that she sort of checks in with me every few days. I also find it interesting that she has done everything that I have asked of her during this time. Respected my space virtually no contact splitting of the bills etc. The only thing that she hasn’t done is ended the affair. I feel like I am loosing her more and more. I also miss my dog and home.
> 
> Feeling a bit lost today. This weekend I am going to pick up his needs her needs. I also plan to get through the questioners in the surviving the affair book. I am hoping this helps.
> 
> This weekend I am spending time with family and relatives. Her sister’s birthday is today. I am not sure if I am supposed to send a card or not. But I think I am. I miss her family and my nieces a ton right now.
> 
> Jar


Wow..you seem to be handling this whole thing like a star. She would be a dummy not to take notice and realize what she is giving up. A man that has been fighting for her in all the right ways-kinda like my HB has been doing..only it is working, and we are still together. I am sorry for what you are going through JAR, how painful it must be for you..but isn't it nice though to be FREEEEE!! Just focus on YOU right now, it is all you can do...you can't control anything she is doing. Sounds like you are doing all the right things..keep it up, and if you don't catch her attention-you will eventually catch someone elses. A man who is willing to read self help books and work on his own personal growth is hard to come by...our Councillor told me during one of our sessions, I would be an idiot walking away from my HB when he is willing to grow and work on himself. He said it is a rarity that a Man will look at his 'garbage' and want to change. Women like Men who are aware and constantly evolving-especially if they are the same kind of person...when one door closes, another opens. I hope it all gets easier for you soon.


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## bestplayer

asgoodasitcanbe said:


> Hi Jar: I read most of your posts, but not all of them...I found I was able to grasp the sadness in your words, yet be able to understand enough in being a woman to be able to see the other side of the coin...Yours is the problem of many marriages...Very often it is the woman that has the affair...This, IMO, is far more apt to happen when two people in love find each other far too early...Often for the woman it is her first sexual encounter....She accepts what it is and learns to love the man for being himself...However, so often she never finds the woman within the woman that needs her own sexual fulfillment...This just may have happened with the two of you...If so you are paying the price for her sexually maturing at a different place in life than with you...In many ways she couldn't help herself...This man turned her on to the tips of her toes...I am sure that she fought this craving that she had for him, but it was too much...She tried staying away, but they had the call of the wild for each other....Hers, being far worse than his...You see when a woman is sexually gratified by a man and he is able to bring out the uninhibited person in her, she really has no control over her desires...Sure she is wrong, but where did the wrong begin?...In marrying someone before she was ready or thinking that what she had experienced was the real height of sexual happiness....
> 
> What I write will differ with everyone else...I see life through many of the stages of a woman...I know love and I know lust...I have been married to one man for many years, but when I married him it was for the reason that we just plain couldn't live without each other...Thinking back, we met at 19 and 20....Couldn't keep our hands off of each other...Never had full sex until we were married two years later and have never gotten sick of it to this day....This wonderful mating game does not rule us, but it sure does bind us....I guess if I was to say what we were the first week I met him on leave and he shipped out it would be "Lovers and then friends" instead of being "Friends and Lovers"....Often two people miss this important fact when they meet...and may I add suffer for it in years to come with children facing the blame....
> 
> Reading what I have read that you have written, you don't want her back....She would never be entirely yours...Move on and find someone that is just like you...Show her your heart....I think you are just great...In ways I respect your wife for setting you free...I believe that you would make a mistake in taking her back...Take care....
> 
> AGAICB


*I am sure that she fought this craving that she had for him, but it was too much...She tried staying away, but they had the call of the wild for each other.*

how do you know she fought this craving or tried staying away from the OM ?
I think she did nothing to fight or stay away from the OM , just like all the cheaters would do .

*You see when a woman is sexually gratified by a man and he is able to bring out the uninhibited person in her, she really has no control over her desires..*.

ok so that means she will keep falling for every new guy that turns her on because she has no control & you are saying it is not her fault ?


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## flowergirl77

bestplayer said:


> *I am sure that she fought this craving that she had for him, but it was too much...She tried staying away, but they had the call of the wild for each other.*
> 
> how do you know she fought this craving or tried staying away from the OM ?
> I think she did nothing to fight or stay away from the OM , just like all the cheaters would do .
> 
> *You see when a woman is sexually gratified by a man and he is able to bring out the uninhibited person in her, she really has no control over her desires..*.
> 
> ok so that means she will keep falling for every new guy that turns her on because she has no control & you are saying it is not her fault ?



Actually not ALL cheaters give into their 'cravings'. I have fought mine and nothing physical ever happened. I have separated myself from the situation to gain clarity-so that is not true of all 'cheaters'. Sheesh, lets not lump all who have strayed into one category!


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## bestplayer

flowergirl77 said:


> Actually not ALL cheaters give into their 'cravings'. I have fought mine and nothing physical ever happened. I have separated myself from the situation to gain clarity-so that is not true of all 'cheaters'. Sheesh, lets not lump all who have strayed into one category!


flowergirl77, sorry I didn't mean " all the cheaters " , I think I should have said " most of the cheaters" .

Btw I have read your threads & I know you were strong enough to end your affair before anything physical could happen .


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## flowergirl77

bestplayer said:


> flowergirl77, sorry I didn't mean " all the cheaters " , I think I should have said " most of the cheaters" .
> 
> Btw I have read your threads & I know you were strong enough to end your affair before anything physical could happen
> 
> .


Thank you for clarifying.


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## jar

I am having a bit of a tough day today. I am at my families place and they have some old family fiends visiting. They explained my situation to them separating the affair everything. It really is bothering me. I am ok with things being out because they are. But I guess I feel like it is my write to choose who I tell and talk to about things. In a week I have a big family reunion many of which I haven’t seen since our wedding. It will be tough enough with out my wife there and everyone asking where she is. I just don’t want my family telling people things I am not comfortable with. I would rather spend the week enjoying spending time with them and not talking about my situation with a 100 different people.

I am also down because today my in-laws are having a big birthday party for my sister in law. I never miss these family gatherings and it hurts my feelings that I wasn’t invited. I understand why I wasn’t but it still hurts my feelings. Makes me wonder what my wife is telling everyone when they ask where I am. She isn’t wearing her wedding ring any more. I wonder if people are tacking notice. Makes me wonder if she is making me out to be the bad guy. Just sucks I have grown very close with her family and there friends over the years and I miss them a lot.

IAM

Not having the life line is tuff. I know what you are saying. It is tuff not seeing or hearing from your spouse. I wonder if she even misses me or thinks about me.

Flower

Thank you for your kind words. My therapist and many of my friends say the something to me. The only problem is I am in love with my wife and I made a vow and commitment to her and I still intend to keep it. My therapist says in the 30 years she has been practicing few men in my situation have done what I have done... I just wish my wife would see it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar,

When I went the exposure route, I wasn't thinking about the way our friends and family would view the affair. I just wanted to stop it. But as I learned with help from AC, Turn and Pete. getting it out there myself, put me in a very good light. My sister-in-law strongly supports me. All our friends do to. What ever she will tell them now doesn't carry much weight. Think in a positive way about interacting with these people. 
Sorry... Jumping to me. Wife just called looking for my son (who couldn't answer his phone as he was carrying groceries) We made small talk and I gave the phone to him. That was that. Five minutes ago she texted me that she really wanted to talk to me tonight without our son around. Sounds bad. I need strength. I told her I would call her in an hour. I had an adult beverage between the phone call and the text. I was okay with the phone call. Not okay with the text. So I can speculate. 1-moving in with boyfriend.
2- want a divorce. I don't care about the moving in part as much as the divorce. I DON'T TALK DIVORCE. Any help. I have an hour or so.


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## Affaircare

I am replying to IAM on his thread because it's not netiquette to threadjack this thread....and since he only has an hour I'm going there first. 

Be right back!


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## jar

Asgood

You know you have given me a lot to think about today. It is a different look on my situation. It is a little bit tough to read and frankly not something I want to hear at this point. You may be entirely correct in what you have to say. But I believe that my situation is different than what you describe. Maybe I am in more denial than I thought. I guess I am taking this time to explain or defend my situation against your analysis.

Very often it is the woman that has the affair...This, IMO, is far more apt to happen when two people in love find each other far too early...Often for the woman it is her first sexual encounter....She accepts what it is and learns to love the man for being himself...

I think there is some truth in this statement. My wife and I met one another when we were very young she was only 18 and I was 21. We fell in love very quickly. 

However, so often she never finds the woman within the woman that needs her own sexual fulfillment...This just may have happened with the two of you...If so you are paying the price for her sexually maturing at a different place in life than with you...

The sexual matuaring part is a very interesting opinion. My wife and I were virgins when we met. I think that we matured in this way together. We have always had a tough time keeping our hands off of each other. In terms of the bedroom activities. It has always been very very fulfilling and satisfying for us both. We have talked about this before in therapy and one on one. Our chemistry in this department has always been amazing. Sure as time has gone by it is less frequent than it use to be but the quality is um… wow… some it up pretty well. I know she would agree with me.

In many ways she couldn't help herself...This man turned her on to the tips of her toes...I am sure that she fought this craving that she had for him, but it was too much...She tried staying away, but they had the call of the wild for each other....Hers, being far worse than his...You see when a woman is sexually gratified by a man and he is able to bring out the uninhibited person in her, she really has no control over her desires...Sure she is wrong, but where did the wrong begin?...

I am not sure your analysis is here is true. It is not how I look at things…Again maybe I am in denial but let me explain. The problems my wife complained about is me being distant and not feeling like I was there for her in an emotional way. To some extant she is write. Her affair is that of one that is emotional the other man stepped in and fulfilled her in ways I was not. On a emotional level…It grew from there to likening the attention etc…She began to feel love for him…Those butterflies were back and she liked it…Finally things turned physical…At first there was a lot of hand holding….Then they began kissing and making out a lot…This is something she told me she liked…Finally they had sex one afternoon this fall. She felt a lot of emotion and a connection with this person. Something that she hand not felt with me in a while but never told me. I have read this is how these things happen in the books as well.

So I know this stuff is true because I asked her all the gory details and she told them me all. I asked how he made her feel and how the sex was etc. Here is what she said. The sex was really bad worst than our first time. It made her wonder if he had ever had sex before. She also said that he was not very well endowed as well. Maybe she said this to make me feel better. Lol it did help a bit…I founded out shortly after this encounter about the affair

Several months go by and she admitted things were not over and they tried to have sex again when I was a way on business but it never fully happened. This was in the spring. Not sure what that is suppose to mean. About a month later she admitted to me the affair was not over and this is when I left home. So since I left I am shore they have shacked up a bunch more times but from what she told me it sounds like they don’t have great chemistry in the bedroom. The stuff about her sexually maturing and finding her desires etc. I don’t think it fits entirely. Plus when it comes to the bedroom stuff the OM has a lot that he will need to live up to if you know what I mean…I don’t mean to brag..lol…This is why I believe that things are more at an emotional level with them both. The books says that the physical stuff more than likely follows in this type of situation and that seems to be what has happened.

In marrying someone before she was ready or thinking that what she had experienced was the real height of sexual happiness....

I think that maybe the only thing that is true here for us is maybe we did get married to young and didn’t experience lots of different relationships. I think that in some way she feels like she may have missed out on something and wonders what it would be like to date others. But again that is me guessing I think that for her she was missing an emotional connection and really needed that from some one.

No, she will not have the same feelings for other men, but she will probably never be sexually satisfied with her husband.....She may move on, but it will never be the same...When a woman has been completed sexually, she knows it...She knows a peace within of sexual satisfaction that money nor wealth cannot alter...Most women never know this place in life...Some are satisfied being satisfied with what they have..

Again in this department we are very compatible and that she has always been very satisfied…We have talked about it before and it seems to come form a very honest place when we talk. My view of the affair is things are lacking in the bedroom with the OM. Also in my opinion and others he is not very attractive. Also he does not have the big income or a great job…We have had a great life and do well… So my view of things your statement is not true in my situation.

She has been awakened within her sexual self and has been taken to heaven...Another man will not fill this bill as he is not the one who she both desires and has made her whole...The husband may be the most wonderful man in the world, but if he does not trip her trigger than sexual intercourse is an act where she plays the parts with the ohhh's and ahhh's with no meaning...I have seen so many women that do not know what an orgasm truly is....This woman has found it and glories in what she has learned...I do not approve of what she has done, but I understand the woman within the woman that made her seek out the thrill of life that she was created to be...I believe you must be both sexually created for each other plus good friends...We are both....She found that one of these was not enough....Like I have said, I expect to be beaten alive with my posts, but somewhere along the line maybe someone just may understand themself better and be wiser for it....Take care...

Again I don’t think these statements are true in our situation. In terms of us being friends we are best friends she even would explain this in therapy…It is some of the emotional connection stuff has been off for us both.

I do appreciate your taking the time to read my posts and I rally appreciate you sharing your views and opinions. It has really made me think and much of what you have sad I have not really considered or thought too much about. Again maybe everything you say is true and I am tons of denial. 

JAR


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## jar

Well It is Monday...I am having a tough time staying motivated today...I have been thinking a lot about my wife and really want to talk to her. Just to see how she is...But I am resisting the temptation to do so...

This up and coming family reunion has got me a bit worried I just don’t want to half to talk about my situation every 10 minutes for an entire week with about 100 different relatives....I think I am going to talk with my family and discus my feeling about things with them.

Spent a lot of time reading last night and working on the love kindler and love extinguisher questioners...Very interesting. They make you think a lot about things...The final results aren’t all that bad...I wonder what they would be like if my wife filled them out...

Also had an enjoyable evening getting to know my roommate and landlord...Landlord is a retired FBI agent that consults on back ground investigations...My roommate I really like he is a big motocross racer and started teaching me how to ride a dirt bike last night....It is very fun and something I have never done before. So I am trying some new things and making some new friends.

JAR


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## jessi

Hi there Jar, 
I know it's tough but it sounds like you are moving on and working on the best you.......
Resist the temptation to call your wife, she needs to feel the loss of having you in her life......
I'm sure the family get together will be fine, I think we always imagine things worse than they will be, people and family will be understanding and aware of your feelings, they will keep it simple and maybe just state that they are there for support if you need them, keep your answers simple......
Trying new things sounds good to me as well......how exciting, although I remember trying a dirt bike, almost killed myself, flew over the handle bars, I still thought it was fun.....hehehe!!!
You may discover a whole new world and many people that bring new things to your life.......
Keep posting and receive the support from others that have been in your shoes........
Hope today goes okay and then the next and so on......hang in there......


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## jar

Got a call from the phone company today. They wanted me to release the wife’s cell number off of my account. It is bothering me for some reason. Last week the wife was texting me clamming she had called and needed me to call and take care of it. I explained she needed to take care of it and if you need me to release the number have the phone company call me. I also told her that I new she had not called. She was just trying to do it though email and online forums. She hates calling places… I guess it took her a few days to work up the nerve to call. So much drama over nothing…She seems to be doing everything that I have asked of her at this point. Except for ending the affair. Just seems like things are going in the wrong direction. Especially the no contact thing I know it is what I need to do mostly for my self. These little mundane things just set me off for some reason. If I were speaking with her daily I think I would be going off the deep end. Based on past history and things she has told me no contact and being a way is a big love extinguishers for her. 

Jar


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## jar

I am having a ruff couple of days. I noticed my wife wrote on facebook that she was having a bad day...I wanted to call her and check in but did not...Also have been having some bad dreams about the affair. I wake up in the morning pretty depressed...

The biggest set of emotions that I am experiencing right now is anger and hate. The anger part I am ok with but the hate part I don’t like and don’t want to feel towards my W...But I feel so F*** over lately.


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## turnera

Are you in therapy? Are you exercising? Are you talking to friends or family?


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## jar

I do see a therapist weekly. 

I do check with several friends and family members during the week.

In terms of exercise I am really not doing too much of that. I am still getting settled.

JAR


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## turnera

Find something to do. Join a club or something.


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## Mom6547

jar said:


> The sexual matuaring part is a very interesting opinion. My wife and I were virgins when we met. I think that we matured in this way together. We have always had a tough time keeping our hands off of each other. In terms of the bedroom activities. It has always been very very fulfilling and satisfying for us both. We have talked about this before in therapy and one on one. Our chemistry in this department has always been amazing. Sure as time has gone by it is less frequent than it use to be but the quality is um… wow… some it up pretty well. I know she would agree with me.


Jar, I am going to come at this from out in left field. I would bet a dollar that your wife is motivated by NRE. 

New relationship energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not read every shred of this thread. But someone else who read your time line says your wife has had a lot of these connections over time. The motivations that she does not herself recognize is NRE. 

While she may be in this affair induced fog, how are you going to deal with an NRE junkie in the future if she DOES ever come back to you?

Some people DO successfully deal with it with responsible non-monogamy. A google search of responsible non-monogamy should give you a bunch of info on this subject.

In our society, cheaters are considered the worst of the worst. And I agree that lying and deceit is terribly damaging in a relationship. But going against one's own nature can be literally impossible. If one is not a natural monogamist, what options do they have? Overcome their nature by resisting temptation. Possible for some. Or cheat. Society does not allow us any other options.

There are many people who simply philosophically reject monogamy and adopt responsible non-monogamy instead. There are many flavors of this I have read about. Some are swingers and only have sexual excitement outside of the marriage. Some are polyamorous, open to more than one love partner. 

Now this sounds like not really your style, to be honest. BUT I think it is worth taking a think on how your wife is going to go forward if her need for NRE is not going to be met?


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## jar

Interesting thought

I can tell you that responsible non-monogamy is not my style. I don’t think it is something that would work for me.

Going forward I would like to learn my wife needs and learn how to fulfill these needs. I guess I believe if I can do this and she can do the same for me. Then neither one of us would have a need to go outside of our marriage. 

That is where I am at today and I guess I believe that would solve our problem. 

JAR


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## Mom6547

jar said:


> Interesting thought
> 
> I can tell you that responsible non-monogamy is not my style. I don’t think it is something that would work for me.
> 
> Going forward I would like to learn my wife needs and learn how to fulfill these needs. I guess I believe if I can do this and she can do the same for me. Then neither one of us would have a need to go outside of our marriage.


Here is the thing. Not everyone CAN get their needs met by only one person. And a person who has a strong interest in NRE might be one of those people. One thing you are never ever going to be for her is new and exciting. Now you can say until you are blue in the face that she SHOULDN'T need that. But if she does, then you are hosed.


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## jar

I see what you are saying.

I guess I don’t know if this is one of her needs or not seeing as we are not communicating what so ever at this point.

JAR


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## NotJustMe

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Here is the thing. Not everyone CAN get their needs met by only one person. And a person who has a strong interest in NRE might be one of those people. One thing you are never ever going to be for her is new and exciting. Now you can say until you are blue in the face that she SHOULDN'T need that. But if she does, then you are hosed.


NRE is a crackpot theory cooked up by a bunch of people who want an excuse for themselves for being too self-centered or not mature or responsible enough to handle all of the effort that a marriage requires.

If you want to stay effectively single and screw around for the rest of your life, fine by me...but at least have the decency to be honest about it, instead of trying to come up with "scientific" theories to explain why you don't really want to grow up.


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## Tanelornpete

> NRE is a crackpot theory cooked up by a bunch of people who want an excuse for themselves for being too self-centered or not mature or responsible enough to handle all of the effort that a marriage requires.


Hear hear! The definition of being human is that you are able to act rationally. You can make decisions that overrule and control your base desires. Marriage is a commitment that is rationally made, and it requires constant diligence.


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## Mom6547

NotJustMe said:


> NRE is a crackpot theory cooked up by a bunch of people who want an excuse for themselves for being too self-centered or not mature or responsible enough to handle all of the effort that a marriage requires.


NRE is not an excuse for anything. It is a feeling. For YOU, monogamy is the only way to live. This is not true for everyone. For those who don't require monogamy from their loved ones, NRE is something that is possible for them.

If you think marriage requires MORE effort than polyamory, I invite you to learn about polyamory. The more I read, the more I get exactly the OPPOSITE impression.



> If you want to stay effectively single and screw around for the rest of your life, fine by me...but at least have the decency to be honest about it, instead of trying to come up with "scientific" theories to explain why you don't really want to grow up.


I agree that one must be honest. One should not promise monogamy and then run around cheating. NRE is a scientific theory? I missed that.


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## Mom6547

jar said:


> I see what you are saying.
> 
> I guess I don’t know if this is one of her needs or not seeing as we are not communicating what so ever at this point.
> 
> JAR


Just a thought for later down the line. It does not matter too much right this second except insofar as it seems that for whatever reason she may be unwilling or unable to be a monogamous person.


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## NotJustMe

vthomeschoolmom said:


> NRE is not an excuse for anything. It is a feeling. For YOU, monogamy is the only way to live. This is not true for everyone. For those who don't require monogamy from their loved ones, NRE is something that is possible for them.


I'm sorry but this NRE has been proven false time and again. At the beginning of a relationship many people may experience certain emotional highs and sensations brought on by specific chemical activity going on in the brain. This same activity is easily duplicated in many ways and is almost 100% identical to a runner's high. The same feelings can be achieved _ with one's current spouse_ simply by trying activities of the type that produce the same brain activity.



> If you think marriage requires MORE effort than polyamory, I invite you to learn about polyamory. The more I read, the more I get exactly the OPPOSITE impression.


I most certainly believe that marriage requires more effort than polyamory because I do not give the idea of polyamory any validation at all whatsoever, and have looked into it enough to know the facts. Most "polyamorous" relationships/agreements whatever you want to call them last less than a year, and for good reason - human beings are not polyamorous creatures. Immature people who want to have their cake and eat it too like to believe we are, though.



> I agree that one must be honest. One should not promise monogamy and then run around cheating. NRE is a scientific theory? I missed that.


There were quotes around the word "scientific" for a reason. Every reference I have ever seen to NRE is purposely made to sound as if it were a proven fact or widely accepted working theory, and it is no coincidence that the large majority of those references come from a person or organization that endorses polyamory as a lifestyle.


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## jar

So I am taking my thread back over again...If you guys want to debate NRE or polyamory start a new thread...Sorry if I am being harsh but I am done talking about this subject...

In my quest to understand marriage and affairs there has been a few things bothering me about my situation...I continue to work on myself and collect knowledge that will help me in the long run...The problem with my situation is I still feel dead in the water. Everything I have learned I can apply to myself which is great. However since my wife and I are no longer speaking or living together and she has continued her affair she can’t see any of this work. So I have been struggling and I keep asking myself what is the point…I am a take action kind of person so what can I do next is what I have struggled with the past 2 weeks. 

So I decided to go to the source. I decided I was going to get in touch with Dr. Harley and speak with him one on one and get some more answers. Turns out this is pretty easy and something they offer through the marriage builder website. I just got off the phone with Harleys son who has been working with him for a bunch of years. I am impressed with what he had to say. I don’t have time to write it up right now and will post something tonight or tomorrow morning.

Stay tuned....Jar


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## turnera

Glad to hear it! From what I've read, they really do focus just on no-nonsense, logical actions that work in many cases. I hope it helped.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> So I am taking my thread back over again...If you guys want to debate NRE or polyamory start a new thread...Sorry if I am being harsh but I am done talking about this subject...


I agree. I do not personally subscribe to NRE but if someone else does the place to declare that or talk about it is on THEIR OWN THREAD not yours. So :smthumbup: good job putting your thread back on track!



> In my quest to understand marriage and affairs there has been a few things bothering me about my situation...I continue to work on myself and collect knowledge that will help me in the long run...The problem with my situation is I still feel dead in the water. *Everything I have learned I can apply to myself which is great*. However since my wife and I are no longer speaking or living together and she has continued her affair *she can’t see any of this work. *So I have been struggling and I keep asking myself what is the point…I am a take action kind of person so what can I do next is what I have struggled with the past 2 weeks.


I would like to point out one little flaw in your thinking pattern there, Jar. If you could stand right in front of her face, and if you two lived together, she might see the changes faster...or more easily. But since you are not seeing her and are not in front of her face, that doesn't mean she doesn't see or know of the changes. I believe you and IAMNOTTHEONLYONE are in similar places in that his wife also is not living with him at the moment. BUT they have mutual friends, and the friends notice the changes and comment on them to her. Their son has noticed the changes and has commented on them to her. When they do have the limited interactions they have...she has noticed the changes and said so herself. 

So you are feeling somewhat impatient and want her to see the changes and fix things now-NOW-*NOW*!! Lol :lol: But what really happens is that you keep your focus on you, on ending Love Extinguishers and on becoming the man you have the potential to be...and people notice. It gets to her via the grapevine. You keep making sure your own side of the street is clear and keep working on yourself and your own issues whatever they may be. 

MEANWHILE, in affairland, guess what? She's discovering that Prince Charming has a tarnish or two (or ten). He does not have the moral qualities and characteristics you do. Now HE is the one doing Love Extinguishers to her and you are very quietly doing Love Kindlers. Now HE is the one who farts, leaves food on the counter, watches TV all night, etc. He has child support and/or a cranky ex in his closet. He has personal or mental health issues he won't address. He doesn't keep up the romance, so sex isn't as great. And all the while you have no Love Extinguishers because you're not there and you have purposely worked on eliminating them. Every time she sees you, you're calm, attentive, polite but assertive, and fair. 

See? It's not immediate but that is what's happening. 



> So I decided to go to the source. I decided I was going to get in touch with Dr. Harley and speak with him one on one and get some more answers. Turns out this is pretty easy and something they offer through the marriage builder website. I just got off the phone with Harleys son who has been working with him for a bunch of years. I am impressed with what he had to say. I don’t have time to write it up right now and will post something tonight or tomorrow morning.


EXCELLENT! I know Steve Harley and he tells it like it is. You will get your money's worth and more, and I'm proud of you for taking that step. I can not WAIT to hear what he said.


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## Rosado

I am going provide an unpopular opinion or viewpoint. No offense intended to the OP. 

I understand everyone's advice about how to win his wife back and end the affair. One of the issues I have with this tactic at times, and in this situation particularly, is that not every marriage SHOULD be "won back". It took me a few days to read through all of the posts here in this thread and one issue doesn't seem to be getting that kind of press it deserves. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, OP, because I'm paraphrasing. But you seem to have detailed multiple EAs your wife has been in both online and IRL. These started as soon as 2 years after your marriage. I understand you both married young, though it was loving and passionate in the beginning, all things are at 18 and 21. But have you considered that she really is not the woman meant for you. I mean I get that a WS can suffer delusions while they are actively in an affair and behave out of character. But it seems that this lifestyle may actually BE her character. I'm all for people working through problems, issues, and affairs in order to save their marriages, but it seems that there are people on this site that believe every marriage was pre-ordained and destined to be successful. That simply is not true and not realistic. People marry for all kinds of reasons and sometimes those reasons are not as pure and altruistic as we would like to believe. 

Its fine to work on marital issues and cheating if both partners want to but I do feel at some point when only one partner is willing, affair or not, its not going to work. Where is there any guarantee that if the OP wife ends this affair, and they get back to together that she wont do it again. Now I'm not saying once a cheater, always a cheater, but I am saying she has shown her colors on numerous occassions and I'm not convinced. Of course there could be some big turnaround or an epiphany but so far there doesnt seem to be anything that would indicate that. It could simply be she is not the right woman for him, no matter how much he loves her and how much he wants her to be. People will always show you who they really are, but unfortunately we dont always want to believe it. 
I am not demonizing or supporting the OP wife and her actions, but I'm just saying sometimes we should take people at face value and not what we want them to be. 
Of course, the fact that you got married or involved very young doesnt help the situation. I mean, how many of us could have made smart, life altering decisions at 18 years old. Not a lot. I know the marriage came some years later but essentially the committment has been that long. I dont think the AP is necessarily the soulmate she has been seeking her whole life, but he may be enough to open her eyes to realize her current life and current marriage is not what she wants. 

Consider for a minute that 2 people got married because of an unexpected pregnancy and decided to do "the right thing" by marrying. They may have never been "in love" but just trying to make the best of a situation. A few years and maybe another child later, one or both of them realize that they're missing something and can no longer just "get along". They are wanting more personal fulfillment and/or be with someone out of desire and not obligation. I'm not advocating an affair, by any means but they tell their spouse that they respect them but the love is never been there and they want out. They did nothing wrong,but now the partner launches into this full scale mission to convince them to stay. Using strategies from books, websites, etc. Is that fair? I dont know but I do think individual situations should be handled individually. Nothing against love busters, fireproof, love dare, affair care, marriage builders or any other of those programs, but I think when some posters quotes these sites, they are no longer individualizing the situation but jumping on bandwagons that these methods are applicable to all situations. They're not. They may be very successful in certain arenas but there also comes a time when some things and some people have to be let go.
Finally, as far as the OP is concerned. I think the NC thing is great for both of you and you should continue to work and strengthen yourself. We as forum participants should always remember we are only hearing the story from one angle and have no idea what the WS is really saying or doing or her motives. If people in his life who know both of them, family and friends, say that he should let her go and move on, consider the fact that they may know more about the situation and the couple than we do and there MAY be some merit in their assessment. 
Thanks for reading, I'm ready for all the rebuttals


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## Tanelornpete

> Its fine to work on marital issues and cheating if both partners want to but I do feel at some point when only one partner is willing, affair or not, its not going to work.


This is quite true, but up until the point when the marriage ends, there is no reason to stop fighting for it. This is similar to the case of a loved one dying - the cause may appear hopeless, but acting on the assumption that 'it may not work out' or 'it doesn't feel like it's working' is not an excuse to give up. Help can come at the 11th hour.

We encourage the Loyal spouse to fight for the marriage as long as they can - and if it is at all possible, to let the END of the marriage be the sole responsibility of the Disloyal Spouse. 

No one is omniscient. We cannot _know_ with certainty that at the last possible moment, some refulgent eureka moment might not happen and things be saved. There is no reason to give up just because things seem or feel hopeless. 

There is no reason to 'individualize' an affair situation, unless you are also willing to allow to individual definitions of terms - in which case, there is no point to even having a forum, since every person who read it has their own meaning for everything, _argument ad absurdium._ Unless marriage means something, unless fidelity means something, they mean nothing. And its a waste of time to talk about nothing.

So too, is it pointless to 'individualize' the steps a person should take to _try_ to save their marriage. To do so would simply mean that no one could do anything - every word, every action would be different for every person. We (affaircare.com) use methods that we've worked on for a long time, and we've seen them work. Not with 100% perfection (nothing is perfect) - but we have seen enough result to know we are on the right track. If we instead decided that every case was somehow unique, we would be simply spinning our wheels....grasping about for random magic solutions to problems that every person individually perceives. 

I am a philosophically an egoist, and an individualist. I believe that EACH person is a separate and unique individual. At the same time, I believe in the unity of logic. All humans breath air, all humans do not have wings and flit about ponds in the evening. 

The error in claiming that each case must be dealt with 'individually' is not that this is not true. It is that it is an equivocation on the word 'individual.' It assumes a separation of individuals, rather than a distinction. It assumes that our attempts to help individuals are the FUSION of ideas, rather than a UNION of them. If we fused all our ideas into a magic mixture, we would fail most of the time. Instead, we consider the ideas we present a union of truth and practice. Separate the truth (an affair = 'x', a marriage = 'y') from the practice, and we'd be randomly helping no one. 

Soap box left, (and sorry about using philosophical language rather than common tongue - in this instance, I felt that the issue runs to a deeper level...)


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## tamara24

I have read your thread and was waiting to see what has happened. Let us know what you found out. I am sorry this has thrown you for such a curve. I have only had one partner in life and we are now at an impass. One of my reasons for not leaving as I love the idea of having the only one partner. Your wife is missing out. Even if the excitement of the affair is what is keeping her there, it will get old. Keep working on yourself. Your trying new things and liking it!That is great! Don't stop that. She or her friends will notice and she will see what she has missed out on. I commend you for making the effort to trying by adjusting your schedule. I am just starting to read the books that you have mentioned in your threads so I am not an expert. Have you went out on a date? I realize that you don't want to get a divorce but I am thinking she is with another man, why not go out for a dinner date with somone that intrests you? Not as a intimate date but just for fun. I would somehow make sure she new that you were going out and unavailable to her. A little jealousy doesn't hurt even if it is just a friend you take out! If she calls you on it, you can say it was just a friend. You do not need to explain to her when she is doing more than dating. You might also find out that she is not the only fish in the sea and that there are plenty of womaen out there that would love to have a man who is willing to change for her! I think once you realize how much work you have put into this and very mature about it, I might add. I think you might have some second thoughts on how wonderful she is. Trust me, there is somone that will appreciate you for who you are!


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## jar

Affaircare said:


> I.
> 
> So you are feeling somewhat impatient and want her to see the changes and fix things now-NOW-*NOW*!! Lol :lol:


Affaircare...I understand everything you are saying. I really do...The problem is I have been figidity and impatient the past few days because I don’t feel like things are getting back to her. Our families live hours apart...We both have different circle of friends and very few couple fiends...I am living away from home. So aside from the occasional face book post she hears nothing about me. That is what I have been struggling with.

The reason I joined this forum is so that I could read about other situations and also have people comment on my situation...It helps me gain fresh perspective on things I might otherwise not thought of.

I really appreciate people taking the time to read my story and comment.

Rosado 

You are right...I ask my self every day exactly what you wrote. I know what I have written about my marriage and my wife and all of our dirty laundry...It looks terrible why on earth would I want to stay in marriage like this...Many people in my life say the exact same things to me. Especially when the other half wants out. You also only have my perspective on our situation...I admit I have not been the perfect husband...I have hurt my wife deeply...If my wife were posting her story it would be much like flowers and tamaras. I accept my part of our problems and I am going to change.

Pete

I think you are correct as well.

tamara

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement.

I could go on and on for pages and debate each and everyone’s point with examples from our marriage and our situation. But I am not...I don’t have the energy tonight.

My explanation for wanting my marriage is simple...I love my wife deeply...She is my wife...I made a vow and commitment to her and I intend to keep it. The day we were married I was confident I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her…Lets just say things turn around there is the risk this could all happen again. I am willing to take that risk….Until I feel I have exhausted all options I am not going to give up on her or our marriage. I won’t quit until I have nothing left in me. I am doing this for myself and for our marriage. I can’t just walk away with out exhausting all options. I am not ok with that. That being said who knows what tomorrow brings…Tomorrow may be the day I through in the towel. That is my justification and explanation right now. This is what I told myself this morning when I was asking myself am I crazy…Many people think this is just nuts.

JAR


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## tamara24

No Jar.

I do not think you are nuts. When I met my husband, I knew he was my soul mate. He knew everything about me and I him. He made me feel safe and that was what I desperatley needed. Later in our marraige, I found notes from female coworkers in his work stuff,he had an emotional affair that I found out about on my birthday. I still gave him a chance. Even when he he was diagnosed with ADHD and couldn't cope with our children crying or being loud, I have stuck it out. But now his love hurts ore than it gives and I see that with you. She hurts you more than she gives to you. When you love someone deeply, you would never sacrifice that relationship for NRE,for anything. Before this happened, regardless of your relationship prior to the OM, would you have ever considered an EA? Absolutley not! Because you are faithful to the bone and you made the committment. If she felt that way about you, she wouldn't have considered it either. People change. When someone is lonely for such a long time, it makes you think what you missed. She should have shared that with you before it was too late.You changed your hours of work just for her, that says a lot about the person you are,and shows how much you cared. I am not saying end it. I am saying keep an open mind. You are the one that has to ultimately make the final decision. Just make sure it is really the right one for you. Sometimes we love things that are not really good for us and we have to let them go so that we can grow and be what we should be. You are being way to kind and patient,but you have to decide when enough is enough.


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## Affaircare

Rosado said:


> ...Consider for a minute that 2 people got married because of an unexpected pregnancy and decided to do "the right thing" by marrying. They may have never been "in love" but just trying to make the best of a situation. A few years and maybe another child later, one or both of them realize that they're missing something and can no longer just "get along". They are wanting more personal fulfillment and/or be with someone out of desire and not obligation. I'm not advocating an affair, by any means but they tell their spouse that they respect them but the love is never been there and they want out. They did nothing wrong,but now the partner launches into this full scale mission to convince them to stay. Using strategies from books, websites, etc. Is that fair?


Actually I am VERY glad you posted this Rosado, and I would be happy to consider exactly your scenario..as you wrote it. 

*"Consider for a minute that 2 people got married because of an unexpected pregnancy and decided to do "the right thing" by marrying. They may have never been "in love" but just trying to make the best of a situation."* 

So two young people got together and had at least enough physical attraction to have sex. Maybe they did not know each other very much and were not infatuated, but for any number of reasons, including being drunk and using that state of inhibition, they have sex. As a result, the lady becomes pregnant. Using your own example, the two people are AWARE of the pregnancy, she tells him and does not abort, and together the two of them make a conscious decision to consider the needs of the child ahead of their own selfish wants. They make an informed decision to voluntarily form a family unit for the raising and support of the child. And there is no reason I can see that they can not make just as informed, just as voluntary conscious decision to consider the needs of their spouse and treat their spouse with love and kindness. Thus, I see nothing here precluding these two people who did not previously feel "infatuation" to consciously decide to work on having a happy, content relationship with each other. 

*"A few years and maybe another child later, one or both of them realize that they're missing something and can no longer just "get along". They are wanting more personal fulfillment and/or be with someone out of desire and not obligation." *

As previously demonstrated, these two are able to put the needs of their family and children ahead of their own selfish wants. So they think of the family they volunteered to raise and support, and they think of the spouse who has been with them through thick and thin. The one who is "missing something" makes the conscious decision to still honor their vow and show their family love but GOING TO their spouse and saying, "I am missing something." The two of them discuss how they are having trouble getting along without fighting or the fact that the one spouse doesn't really want to just be there with no purpose and no meaning. They discuss the personal fulfillment that the one spouse is craving, and through a mutual united understanding, they figure out ways for that spouse to FIND that personal fulfillment. If it is a lack of desire--they agree together how to rekindle the desire and lust in their relationship. If they don't know how to discuss these things, they find a pastor, coach, counselor or mentor of some sort to help them. The commitment is not threatened, and they continue to honor their word, which says "I volunteer to forsake all others for you, through all that life send us, until death."

*"I'm not advocating an affair, by any means but they tell their spouse that they respect them but the love is never been there and they want out. They did nothing wrong,but now the partner launches into this full scale mission to convince them to stay. Using strategies from books, websites, etc. Is that fair?"*

Love is not a "feeling" because feelings/emotions come and go, and change with the seasons. Love is an action. Love is treating your spouse in a loving way. Love is when your spouse treats you in a loving way. Soooo...since these two put their own selfish wants to the side for the good of their child, and made a conscious decision to come together to raise and support their new family unit....then yes, it is fair. They are perfectly capable of deciding, again, to ACT in a way that is loving toward their spouse. They are perfectly capable of choosing to act, AGAIN, in a way that honors their commitment to each other and putting their own selfish wants aside. They are perfectly capable of using the strategies, books, websites etc. even to recreate the "feelings" of lust and desire and romance and affection! 



> I dont know but I do think individual situations should be handled individually. Nothing against love busters, fireproof, love dare, affair care, marriage builders or any other of those programs, but I think when some posters quotes these sites, they are no longer individualizing the situation but jumping on bandwagons that these methods are applicable to all situations. They're not. They may be very successful in certain arenas but there also comes a time when some things and some people have to be let go.


I believe this would be a great analogy for you, Rosado (and for Jar too, as this is indeed his thread). Suppose you go to the doctor because you have an STD--it's syphilis. The treatment for syphilis is penicillin...every single time. The treatment does not change depending on if you got it during the daytime or night...nor does how MUCH syphilis you have change the treatment. Now, the WAYS that a person got syphilis can be varied and may indicate additional illness or weaknesses or require additional resources and referrals. But you can't change the fact that if you have X --you cure X by doing Y. Furthermore, some doctors are specialists who can tell the difference between syphilis bacteria A, and syphilis bacteria Q...and other doctors are more generalized and do know that curing syphilis = penicillin but don't know all the various brands of the STD. 

It's very similar here. The treatment for an affair is the seven steps, every time. In this instance it may not "cure" the affair but it is the most effective treatment and has the highest likelihood of treating it. The treatment does not change depending on the individual circumstances of what lead up to the affair...now does it change if you SAW your spouse nude in bed or if it was an EA. Now, the WAYS that a marriage got involved in an affair can be varied and may indicate additional illness or weaknesses or require additional resources and referrals. But you can't change the fact that if you have affair--you "cure" infidelity by 1)Taking 7 Steps to End the Affair, and 2) Taking Steps to Rebuild a New, Healthy Marriage. Furthermore, some counselors specialize in just this area and know the different types of infidelity and some subtle differences, but many counselors are more general "marriage counselors" and can also deal with areas like parenting, financial difficulties, sex in marriage, etc. 



> If people in his life who know both of them, family and friends, say that he should let her go and move on, consider the fact that they may know more about the situation and the couple than we do and there MAY be some merit in their assessment.
> Thanks for reading, I'm ready for all the rebuttals.


I would agree with you that it is absolutely true that the people in his life know both of them better than we do. They know him and his limits. They know her and her weaknesses. Their absolutely may be some merit to their assessment. But are they doctors? Even though they know the couple very, very well and may even know their health somewhat...would you go to the family to ask them, "Is this arm broken? You know them." Probably not, because they didn't really study medicine and may or may not be able to tell and if they could tell, may or may not be able to know what to do to FIX the broken arm. Same here. They may indeed recognize that it's broken, but chances are that their only contact with either infidelity or divorce would be if/when it happened to them...and they may or may not have done a very good job? It makes common sense to listen to BOTH: the people who know you very well, and the person who's an expert at AFFAIRS.


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## Rosado

Thank you affaircare, for taking the time to respond to my post. I certainly do not discredit your reasoning nor your approach to fixing affairs in marriages and other LTRs. I am not an expert on affairs, neither on how they start nor how to end them. So you get no arguments from me there. My only contention that is that not all marriages are born out of love like we would like them to be. As I said before, people get married for all kinds of reasons, pregnancy, drunken trip to vegas, running away from bad family life, societal expectations, money etc. 
Now if there were some real basis of love between the couple at the beginning of the relationship, then I agree that through various steps, programs and coaching it can be rekindled and even survive an affair. But what if love was never part of the equation? As much as we dont want to admit it, some marriages dont begin with that key ingredient. If there is no foundation to _return _to, then it probrably wont work. If it did, then you could almost take 2 strangers put them through the programs and expect their marriage to work. 
I disagree with view that individual relationships shouldnt be handled on a case by case basis. Treating the couple with regards to their specific situation doesnt have to exclude the use and success of the affair proof programs. Though I am not an affair expert, I think we will have to agree to disagree on generalizing every couple. Admittedly, marriages fall apart and affairs happen for different reasons, so to acknowledge that the cure may require different strategies is not too much of a stretch. 
By the same token, acknowledging that _some_ marriages are mistakes from the very beginning is not unreasonable. We all make mistakes, some big and some small. Hindsight is 20/20. Some people can work and fix their problems right away and be successful, some never acknowledge their mistake and continue to live a lie to please someone else, and others try to fix it and fail and have chalk it up to a learning experience.
I just dont think the "Never say die" mentality applies to _ALL_ situations. Just my opinion, anyway

BTW: I'm not referring to the OP situation when I said some marriages are mistakes. I was just generalizing Please dont take anything personally.


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## jar

Well like I said I had a call the other day with Dr Steve Harley. Harley’s son.

I have a need for more answers and needed some additional coaching. Like I said in my previous post I needed some coaching to stay positive and I felt I had dug my self into a rut and I could not see a logical good next step. I didn’t want to just play the waiting game. I have a need to feel like I am doing something.

I also called because my therapist is great at helping me through my emotional stuff and also exploring my emotions but she really can’t help me with coaching me through this affair stuff. Our mediator is basically a divorce lawyer and she can’t help mediate reconciliation. Our marriage therapist we stopped going to several weeks ago. Our marriage is her client and because the wife and I are in different places she can’t help us any longer. So like I said I decided to go to the source. The people that wrote the book

I think what Harley had to say will give many of you some new perspective on things. I got a lot out of the call. It was very positive so here goes.

Keep this in mind when reading this…Harley doesn’t see himself as pro marriage he is pro happiness…this is an important concept to grasp.

He explained this to me after I explained our general situation to him.

Our marriage has two problems the first is the Affair the second is a marriage that has problems and is not working for both of us. So the approach is two steps. The first step is to deal with the affair stuff. Then deal with the marriage stuff. Makes sense and I guess I already understood this.

Steve explained that no matter how sweet and loving I am. No matter how much I change for the better. No matter how much I listen to her issues and problems and make changes for the better. As long as there is an affair going on and she is emotionally connected to someone else she will never see or appreciate any of my efforts. It is part of the addiction and the fog. He explained it is about her and it is very selfish. Again I guess I understood this because I have experienced it first hand. To her our marriage and relationship is like hunting unicorns…How can you hunt something that doesn’t exist. This is how she feels about our marriage and relationship.

Steve also explained that it was important for my wife to begin researching her feelings and understanding her emotions better. She needs to read the books and the websites etc…Basically do everything that we at TAM do. Until she educates her herself on these subjects she won’t be able to deal or cope with the affair, marriage, or another relationship. The same problems will come up again and again.

My question to Steve was what can we do to get some positive dialog going back and forth with me and the wife and maybe begin making some deposits in the old love bank. At this point when me and the wife meet it is at mediation and while I try my best to not do any love extinguishers the meetings are confrontational.

Going forward Steve recommended that we define the following together.

Goal
Requirements
Plan
Execution

Goal: To be in a marriage or relationship that we both enjoy bring part of. (Note I didn’t necessarily say with one another even know this is my goal)

Requirements: In order to define the requirements you need to do some research. This is the part where I recommend to my wife that we do some research. I recommend to her reading x y and z etc. Hopefully after we have both done some research we can come together and intelligently discus what we have learned and define what the requirements are of an enjoyable relationship. 

Plan: In this stage hopefully we can sit down and plan how we can both achieve our goal and fulfill our goals requirements. 

Execution: This is the part where the rubber meet the road, Execute the plan. Sounds so easy and logical right.

Some of you my be wondering what the point of all this is. I know I did. It’s a way for my wife and me to start a meaningful honest conversation. It is a way for us to do some work on ourselves and identify our needs and wants as individuals and share them with one another…Most importantly it is a way both of us can make a few deposits in the love bank. Hopefully if things go according to plan some of the fog will lift and my wife will begin to understand what would make an enjoyable relationship for her. At this point more than likely my wife will realize the OM shortcomings and that her affair really isn’t fulfilling her needs either. Now hopefully my wife will also begin to see me and some of the positive changes I have made. Hopefully she will see that I am trying to do some work to figure things out and the OM is not offering any such thing. 

This next part is something that really made a lot of sense to me. It is only natural for my wife to want to have a meaningful marriage that she enjoys being part of with her husband. That would be the ideal scenario. Hopefully her first husband and that would be me. Makes sense right. Harley even says that once the dialog gets going that this would even be ok to say to my wife.

So I said to Steve this sounds really all fine and great and makes sense but how on earth am I suppose to get my wife to work through this exercise…Steve says my wife will at first will look at this exercise as me trying to get her to come back. At that point I am to say that I am working with him and that he instructed me to do this exercise and thought that it would be a good idea if I asked her to join me and help me complete it. The exercise is to help us as individuals. It is designed to help us understands our needs and wants. It is designed to educate us. By saying this it takes the pressure off of the marriage and focus’s on us as individuals.

This exercise gives us some structure. He pointed out that this is what our marriage counselor might have been trying to do to help us as a couple. It just may not have been so clear at the time. He also pointed out that we by passed an important step in therapy and that was dealing with the affair. We just kind of didn’t talk too much about it and tried to put it behind us because it was to pain full for us both. Harley says this is ok but we missed another important step in marriage counseling it wasn’t clear what the goal was and it wasn’t clear that my goal was the same as my wife’s and that both parties had buy in. 

So again this exercise brings basic structure that can be applied in to almost all aspects of everyday life. It brings structure and hopefully a way to deal with this affair and away for us to begin working on our marriage.

I just need to figure out how to get the ball rolling do I start by emailing her, calling, suggesting a meeting etc…Not sure I have to think on this for a few days.

This is a ton of info and I hope that it can help a few of you that are struggling with what to do next

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Jar, Thank you for the info. I think it was worth every penny you spent. In regards to you arranging a sitdown with your W, I have the "natural" excuse to get together: a child. And in principle my wife has agreed to a regular meeting to discuss communication, finances and logistics. However, I think you need another mechanism that won't seem like a scheme. What can bring you two together naturally? Who has the dog? Is there work around the house that needs to be done? I am sure you will hear from the "Pros" and our friends here with some suggestions. 
I am printing out your thread to study it. It is interesting that Harley says he is a happiness counsellor. When my wife did her one session of counselling with our therapist I was afraid she would be a happiness counsellor...."Do what makes you happy!" Running away from a relationship that worked isn't finding happiness it is running away from a problem and things that hurt. Infatuation brings fleeting happy feelings but does mean you will be happy.
I would not like to direct my wife towards any of the reading I am doing as it might be useful to her in her affair when it begins to breakdown. Does that sound a little crazy? I don't think I can suggest anything to her right now that wouldn't seem controlling to her.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> Well like I said I had a call the other day with Dr Steve Harley. Harley’s son.
> 
> ...
> 
> Keep this in mind when reading this…Harley doesn’t see himself as pro marriage he is pro happiness…this is an important concept to grasp.


Jar, I think your meeting with Steve Harley was productive and showed you a few concrete steps you can take to start "doing something" again, which is excellent. It sounds like you have an idea now to contact your wife and say that a personal coach you are seeing suggested an exercise for you to complete, and that the exercise has some questions about her so would she do it with you? This removes the pressure of "trying to get us back together" so that's a GREAT suggestion. 

The part I quoted above I think is one of the main differences that Affaircare has with MarriageBuilders. Yes, not every marriage can be saved. Yes, we work toward the person recovering so they can be a better spouse--hopefully in this marriage but if need be, in the next. BUT Affaircare is very firmly pro-marriage in that we believe that very often the happiness is created IN THE MARRIAGE, not by leaving. In other words, our order of priority is: 1) Honor your covenant and save the marriage and 2) Create happiness within the marriage. I PERSONALLY think if a person can create some measure of happiness just by being a person who is faithful to their word and who honors their promises, and at least to my mind, if you pursue "happiness" first, then you walk that fine line that makes a Disloyal Spouse slip: "What about MY happiness? I deserve to be happy!" We believe that is actually a backward way of looking at it: we don't love so that others can "make us happy"...we love and create our own happiness by being loving and treating others in ways that make them happy. Does that sort of make sense? And if you add the component of pleasing God, we don't live so God can make us happy--we live to please Him and THAT is what brings happiness to us no matter what the circumstance. 

Here's the way I see it though. There are many associates and colleagues out there who do GREAT work and save many marriages. MarriageBuilders, DivorceBusters, FireProof...they all have a place and all contribute to the bigger goal of saving marriages from infidelity.


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## jar

Affaircare said:


> we don't love so that others can "make us happy"...we love and create our own happiness by being loving and treating others in ways that make them happy.


Affaircare I really do understand your position as well as Harleys. You both make a lot of sense. I am hoping to combine the best of both worlds. The statement above I agree with 100 percent. I may never have been able to spell it out so elegantly (writing is not my best skill set) but this has always been my outlook on love, marriage and relationships. At this point I believe that my wife’s outlook is completely opposite of that.

What is your outlook at contacting my wife? I feel like I have got myself in a pickle here. Let me explain why. I am working on myself and doing some carrot and stick kind of stuff. But at the same time I am also doing a no contact sort of faze. I should have probably got more advice from the folks here before I did what I did. But bottom line my wife is still in an affair and is moving quickly towards divorce.

So in terms of contact seeing how we have no children there is not much of a mechanism left for discussion. We share a dog at this point I am supposed to get her back for a few weeks next month. During mediation she brought up the fact she wants my fish tank out of the house. So I agreed to take it down next month as well. I am sure there a ton of things that need to be done around the house and one source of contention is the lawn and the broken mower. But if I go over and start tacking care of these sorts of things I am conflicted. She is in an affair and it has been recommended to me that she needs to understand what it is like to deal with life with out me in the picture. Right So I felt like I needed another mechanism for initiating some conversation or do you think that I should remain silent.

I guess lastly I have heard nothing from my wife for 11 days. The last time was a few txt message about the splitting the cell phone bill. Something I requested she do during our last mediation session. So today I received an email. It really has me wound up. So here it is.

******************************************
I have removed my number from your ATT account, ATT wanted me to let you know that you will have to call them or go online to tell them what you want your plan to look like. Right now they just give you a standard plan, whatever that means. 

Also I was wondering if you have thought anymore about being ready to mediate further with me, about bigger items, such as the house. 

Thanks,

*******************************************

At least it wasn’t a text message. We do have a mediation session penciled in for the beginning of Aug. I did say I probably would not be back to mediation during our last session because it was not moving in the right direction.

The other thing that has me going is last night at midnight my wife posted on face book that she had an enjoyable day at the beach. One of her friends wrote back and asked where she had been. I assume this is because no one is really hearing from her. The other interesting thing is the beach is at the local lake where we go boating. This lake has been our summer retreat for the past 5 years for us and is a special place. All of our friends meet us there in the summer and go boating with us. So I wonder if those same friends met her at the beach or maybe she just went with the OM. Either way she went to a place that is near and dear to our hearts and is a place we have always enjoyed as a couple.

So lastly my brother and I leave for a 10 hour drive at 4am to meet up with my family for a week long reunion at the beach. It is going to be fun and is a big part of my child hood. My wife was suppose to go and was looking forward to it up until several weeks ago. I wonder if she is still taking the time off work. All of my cousins are big face book people so I am sure through out the week they will be making comments and uploading photos to face book. All of this is something my wife will be able to see.

I don’t know if any of this is a good sine or not. I all I know is it really has me torn up in knots. I don’t think I plan to contact my wife for a while I have a lot to think about this week. Hopefully all of you can continue to lend me support on what to do. Affaircare thank you for writing that article it is so tuff not hearing from her. I am over thinking and analyzing everything. I just know that I have made some mistakes throughout all this and I we are on a very thin rope. One wrong move could drown us.

Trying to think happy thoughts... 

JAR


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## jar

So one last thing I wanted to post. Yes my wife has had some internet EA stuff going on and off throughout our marriage. I was devastated but at the time neither my wife nor I understood that this behavior was considered a type of affair. Although we did some repair work I don’t think either one of us understood how major something like this really was. We were both naive on so many levels.


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## iamnottheonlyone

That was a polite email from your wife. Other than ageneral response I don't think I would agree to anything. You could simply and politely restate your case as you did at the last mediation. Nothing needy. Even mention it was nice to hear from her.
Although Harley's suggestion is attractive, I hadn't put myself in your shoes. I can see how thinking about this would wind you up. Sorry about that. I do see that if you want contact you have several avenues. Delay is our friend. However, incidental friendly contact can remind her of what is missing. You have some thinking to do. No rush. I will think about it too. It certainly is worth hearing from others.


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## Affaircare

> Affaircare I really do understand your position as well as Harleys. You both make a lot of sense. I am hoping to combine the best of both worlds. The statement above I agree with 100 percent. I may never have been able to spell it out so elegantly (writing is not my best skill set) but this has always been my outlook on love, marriage and relationships. At this point I believe that my wife’s outlook is completely opposite of that.


Having been in your wife's shoes, I have no doubt that is exactly the case--she most likely thinks more along the lines of "making myself happy" is priority #1 and if that's at the expense of the marriage? Well marriage is priority #2 if it's that high. Plus, having been disloyal myself, there is a point at which something inside your head sort of snaps and says, "DAMMIT I'm tired of trying! I want happiness and I want it now! Someone else owes that to me!" and it's a completely self-focused point of view...as if the Universe OWES you one! 



> What is your outlook at contacting my wife? I feel like I have got myself in a pickle here. Let me explain why. I am working on myself and doing some carrot and stick kind of stuff. But at the same time I am also doing a no contact sort of faze. I should have probably got more advice from the folks here before I did what I did. But bottom line my wife is still in an affair and is moving quickly towards divorce.


Well I personally see no reason to NOT contact your wife. That I know of, you are in Plan A/Carrot & Stick and you did not send her a letter for the beginning of Plan B/Consequences. I see nothing preventing you from inviting her over to your new apartment for dinner or a movie...except that she'd likely say no. There is just one small glitch/hitch and that is, you are in fact still her husband! So maybe you could try mailing her a card or sending flowers. 

Also, for cmf we sort of discovered that one of her Extinguishers was having expectations and not saying them out loud...for IAM we sort of discovered some financial Extinguishers that put others ahead of his own wife. What were your Extinguishers? What put out the flame of love that you two once had? If you want to make progress you will have to admit them, figure out what to change and how, and then SHOW her with your actions the changes.



> So in terms of contact seeing how we have no children there is not much of a mechanism left for discussion. We share a dog at this point I am supposed to get her back for a few weeks next month. During mediation she brought up the fact she wants my fish tank out of the house. So I agreed to take it down next month as well. I am sure there a ton of things that need to be done around the house and one source of contention is the lawn and the broken mower. But if I go over and start tacking care of these sorts of things I am conflicted. She is in an affair and it has been recommended to me that she needs to understand what it is like to deal with life with out me in the picture. Right So I felt like I needed another mechanism for initiating some conversation or do you think that I should remain silent.


Jar, remaining silent is partly for you and partly for her. It is partly for you because being involved in the drama of your wife being with another man is too painful and what happens? Love Extinguishers leak out! You yourself said that you have a tendency to get forceful right? So that would not be a positive experience and would convince her that's why she needs to leave you. And it is partly for her because the affair is fantasy! She had it built up in her head that the OM would "complete her" and he would know her every need and meet it before she even had to communicate it. Well we all know that's not real, but she learns it by experiencing it. She learns it because the OM doesn't mow the yard either...or fix the mower. You can fix it and you can mow, but she is the one who made the choice to leave you and go to someone who can't/won't do it! 

That being said, what are some options? Let's brainstorm ways you could add more options for contact: What if she were to hire you to fix the mower just like she could hire any other repairman to fix it? You are her husband, so what if you were to send her a love note on her FB wall every day? What if you mailed her a smooshy card? What if you wrote her a poem and emailed it to her? Those have to do with Kindlers...so what if you wrote on your FB every day the things you did to address your Extinguishers? (Like writing on your wall: "Read a book about anger today. It said XYZ and that really got to me because I know I did that.") What if you contacted her family, your inlaws, and invited them to dinner just because you are still their son-in-law? What if you started an online journal like on LiveJournal.com that was all about your struggles--both sorrow in her leaving and ways you still love her? What if you started a page on DeviantArt.com that was art or poetry dedicated to her? 

As you can see, there are MANY ways you can contact her and it can "get back to her" and most of it requires some effort on your part.



> I guess lastly I have heard nothing from my wife for 11 days. The last time was a few txt message about the splitting the cell phone bill. Something I requested she do during our last mediation session. So today I received an email. It really has me wound up. So here it is.
> 
> ******************************************
> I have removed my number from your ATT account, ATT wanted me to let you know that you will have to call them or go online to tell them what you want your plan to look like. Right now they just give you a standard plan, whatever that means.
> 
> Also I was wondering if you have thought anymore about being ready to mediate further with me, about bigger items, such as the house.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> *******************************************
> 
> At least it wasn’t a text message. We do have a mediation session penciled in for the beginning of Aug. I did say I probably would not be back to mediation during our last session because it was not moving in the right direction.


Sooooo...if she removed her number from your AT&T account, that means your AT&T account has/is changing and they don't know how you (the account owner) want it configured. For now they are giving you a basic account. She is giving you a 'heads up' to contact them and tell them if you want added features, etc. AND you are no longer paying for her to be in touch with other men over the phone--she is responsible for that now. 

I believe the appropriate response would be: 

_"Thanks for the heads up about the AT&T account. I appreciate your taking responsibility for your choices. I will contact them and let them know how I'd like to set up the account. Again, thank you. 

Regarding mediation over bigger items, the only big item I choose to mediate is how to recover our marriage and reconcile. I do not choose divorce and thus do not believe the marriage is irreconcilable or over. Have you thought anymore about being ready to mediate further with me about creating a loving, happy, passionate marriage that honors our vows?"_



> The other thing that has me going is last night at midnight my wife posted on face book that she had an enjoyable day at the beach. One of her friends wrote back and asked where she had been. I assume this is because no one is really hearing from her. The other interesting thing is the beach is at the local lake where we go boating. This lake has been our summer retreat for the past 5 years for us and is a special place. All of our friends meet us there in the summer and go boating with us. So I wonder if those same friends met her at the beach or maybe she just went with the OM. Either way she went to a place that is near and dear to our hearts and is a place we have always enjoyed as a couple.


It's not unusual at all for a DS to cut off communication with any family who disapproves, friends who disapprove, etc. Many/most stop their usual activities and relationships with people and basically surround themselves with unhappy people who encourage them to divorce, or who indicate that the affair is "the right thing." That's because they want to justify what they know is wrong and can't bring themselves to admit their behavior to those who knew them before! That would burst the affair bubble...if they spoke to a friend who knew you both and the friend said, "I knew you both and I'm sorry but you two were NOT unhappy! You two were loving and this is so unlike you!" 



> So lastly my brother and I leave for a 10 hour drive at 4am to meet up with my family for a week long reunion at the beach. It is going to be fun and is a big part of my child hood. My wife was suppose to go and was looking forward to it up until several weeks ago. I wonder if she is still taking the time off work. All of my cousins are big face book people so I am sure through out the week they will be making comments and uploading photos to face book. All of this is something my wife will be able to see.


...AND I encourage all of them and all of you to actually publish things on HER wall! She needs to know they miss her--she needs to be reminded that you WERE happy and that it was fun--and this is that contact I was telling you about that "gets back to her." If your family is willing to do it, ask some of them to even post a pic on her wall and say "We miss you, wish you were here, look how much fun we're having? Where are you?" 



> I don’t know if any of this is a good sign or not. I all I know is it really has me torn up in knots. I don’t think I plan to contact my wife for a while I have a lot to think about this week. Hopefully all of you can continue to lend me support on what to do. Affaircare thank you for writing that article it is so tuff not hearing from her. I am over thinking and analyzing everything. I just know that I have made some mistakes throughout all this and I we are on a very thin rope. One wrong move could drown us.


Jar, FYI that is not true. You have already made several wrong moves and yes it is costing you at the moment, but this isn't something that can't come with some mistakes. See the issue is not "don't ever make a mistake again." If it were, you'd be sunk! The issue is "don't make mistakes and sweep them under the rug or leave them unresolved." The issue is "don't make a mistake and repeat it." The issue is "don't make a mistake and rather than admit it, deflect and blame someone else." Make a mistake--go ahead. Then apologize, empathize, explain what you'll do differently so it doesn't happen again...and offer safety. 



> So one last thing I wanted to post. Yes my wife has had some internet EA stuff going on and off throughout our marriage. I was devastated but at the time neither my wife nor I understood that this behavior was considered a type of affair. Although we did some repair work I don’t think either one of us understood how major something like this really was. We were both naive on so many levels.


Yeah, no worries. That's pretty common actually, and some people even have an affair like THIS and still don't do the work to actually understand or change. They go back to "the way it was" and sadly that way was a way that lead to an affair. So what happens? Another affair.


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## jar

Once again you have given me much to think about....

I have confused myself in the past week or so. I guess here is why…When I left my wife I felt like I had spent months playing the best A game I could. When I left I felt like that meant that I went in to plan B. A week after I left I sent my wife a letter explaining why I had left and needed to distance my self from her. In this letter I made it very clear I could not continue to support her emotionally financially etc as along as she continued her affair. I conclude the letter explaining that I was un wiling to really speak with her unless it was through our counselor or a mediator…I explained that if she ended the affair and severed all contact with the OM then I would be willing to discuse things out side of mediation. I concluded that if she ended the affair I would be willing to accept her back into our marriage. I asked her to respect my wishes etc…So basically she has respected my wishes I gave her a few options and she has chosen not to end the affair.

So this is why I thought I was in plan B mode. This is why I have also been silent. Maybe I am really in plan a and my letter was more me defining my boundaries.

I think that while I am on vacation I am going to send her a postcard. Something with a simple message letting her now I miss her. Hopefully this can open the door to a bit more dialog and even lead into Harley’s recommendation. I am more than willing to do all of the items you recommend. I just feel strange doing these things. I especially like some of the face book things because others will be able to see these messages and so will the OM. I think I am going to wait on responding to her email until I return home. I do like your recommendation. 

I am on vacation with my family tonight was pictures with all 50 of us on the beach with a photographer. It was nice to see everyone. All of us are here except my wife. This kind of get together only happens at wedding or funerals. I really miss my wife a ton and think about how much fun it would be to have her here. My family misses her as well. I would have like to have some nice beach pictures with her. She was looking forward to this trip. Luckily my family is being ok…Only one of my aunts has drilled me with the 20 questions. I am keeping all conversation about us very simple….Also looks like my wife has this week off from work as well…

So I have been working on the love extinguishers and kindler questioner as well as really trying to identify my needs and her needs. When it comes to her needs I am having some trouble because towards the end it seems like she was complain about every thing I did and nothing was write. I guess I believe her biggest needs are conversation, quality time, and passionate affection. She needs to feel connected. She complained of lonleyness...She would just say the OM was there for her…The dog was there for her…This is based on me reading between the fine lines of all her complaints. She also complained a lot about how she felt like everything in our life was on her shoulders. Like planning, bills, household things, etc…She felt like I didn’t worry about these things as much and it bothered her. She also felt like in a way that I should be a mind reader and she had certain expectation and that I should just know what she wants or how she feels. I am struggling a bit on her needs just because it seems like everything was a problem. Figuring this stuff out is taken me a while I have been working on it more than a week now. 

So August is a big month because I am supposed to go home for the first time and deal with my fish tank. It is also our anniversary this month. When I am home I will have the opportunity to deal with the lawn mower and some other things if I choose. Maybe all of these will help and be love kindlers. I have a while to figure things out.

Thanks 
JAR


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## Mom6547

NotJustMe said:


> I'm sorry but this NRE has been proven false time and again.


What does that mean? How can you prove a feeling false? 



> At the beginning of a relationship many people may experience certain emotional highs and sensations brought on by specific chemical activity going on in the brain. This same activity is easily duplicated in many ways and is almost 100% identical to a runner's high. The same feelings can be achieved _ with one's current spouse_ simply by trying activities of the type that produce the same brain activity.


So what? 



> I most certainly believe that marriage requires more effort than polyamory because I do not give the idea of polyamory any validation at all whatsoever, and have looked into it enough to know the facts. Most "polyamorous" relationships/agreements whatever you want to call them last less than a year, and for good reason - human beings are not polyamorous creatures. Immature people who want to have their cake and eat it too like to believe we are, though.
> 
> 
> There were quotes around the word "scientific" for a reason. Every reference I have ever seen to NRE is purposely made to sound as if it were a proven fact or widely accepted working theory, and it is no coincidence that the large majority of those references come from a person or organization that endorses polyamory as a lifestyle.


NRE stands for new relationship energy. It is the feeling one can get when one is in a new relationship. It is the feeling that most people experience in the dating stage. I felt it with my husband. You probably felt it too. 

It sounds like the idea of an alternate way of doing things threatens you for some reason. I don't know why this would be. I am not sure why you would need to endorse or not endorse someone else's lifestyle choice. Obviously you are not interested in polyamory. I would be curious to see what evidence you have for the sweeping comment that humans are mono by nature. :scratchhead: Only very recently in the history of marriage has love had anything really to do with marriage. For much of human history it has been about property rights and children.


My reason for bringing this up to the OP was for him to consider that perhaps his wife was not a good investment of his energy as she seems to like to have new men around.


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## turnera

> She also complained a lot about how she felt like everything in our life was on her shoulders. Like planning, bills, household things, etc…She felt like I didn’t worry about these things as much and it bothered her.


That is my life, and I DO hate my husband for it. If I try to get him to even discuss anything, he snaps at me and says 'Not now!' So I end up having to make all the decisions myself. Stereotypes aside, I wish I had a man taking charge; instead I got one who's driving us into bankruptcy with his negligence. She probably felt the same way. I know a lot of women who voice this same complaint.


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## tamara24

Jar,
You have given me lots to mull over with this love bank idea...
What if you emailed her and said hey, I would like to make a deal with you. Wait for her response. Then say something like I will come fix the lawn mower if you will please make me some of your delicous______. Insert your favorite meal she cooked for you. Tell her you have really missed that. If she agrees, then say Iwill even throw in mowing the lawn if you will agree that we not discuss any big decision items while I am there. The go fix the mower, mow the lawn and eat dinner with her. Ask her questions, like hey ya know while I was mowing the yard, I was thinking of the funny thing that happened at ____. Do you remember. Bring up the reunion, how everyone missed her, said to say hello. Don't discuss anything that will start a fight. Preplan some funny things to say. Maybe find some small thing that needs attention at the house and do it quickly. Thank her for the meal and don't expect anything from her. If she will allow you to give her a hug goodbye, then do so but don't push it. The next day, send flowers or a card, thanking her for making the meal and how you enjoyed the company. Whatever works best, you know your wife. I think not talking to her, doesn't really give her a chance to see your changes and it gives you an oppurtunity to deposit in the love bank several times.Keep it light. 

Also looking at your last post,she complained how dumped things on her. I have had this discussion with the hubby several times. You want to know what the main issue boils down to? She was lonely! By the time you realized it she had been lonely way too long. Rememer when you dated? Did you bring flowers, put notes in her car, take her out to dinner and such? After the marraige and things got difficult, did you ever call and say, hey you know what, don't make dinner tonight, I know you have been cleaning all day so I am taking you out. Leave her a note saying, I am thinking of you today? Those little things, can mean sooo much. It could exlain why she searched for attention through internet affairs,and finally OM.

I think if you want to save this marraige you have to TALK to her, touch her, let her SEE you are changing. Even if you talk about moving to your new place and missed how she ironed your shirts, or took the dog out for that first morning walk. Let her know you appreciated what she did. I am rooting for you. Be proactive, you have been silent way too long. Formal replies in an email is just leading you to pushing her further a way. She missed you, that is why she complained about those things!


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## jar

Thank you for the recommendations. I think you are right. I will say all of those suggestions you gave me is not that uncommon from our everyday life. I will say these things are not as frequent as they use to be. My wife would complain about the little things like this. The little things that make her feel special and so I began to do them again and it just made her feel guilty. We talked a lot about this in therapy she would also talk bout how she felt ambivalent when I did these things. So this was tough to hear. But the biggest thing that would get to me was I would not get anything in return. I get excited when I do these things and look forward to my wife’s excitement in return. So it would hurt my feelings when I got nothing in return…not even a hug. 

I guess one of the biggest things I realized a few months ago when my wife would share her feelings or complaints often times I didn’t feel like what she was saying was true. For example she didn’t think I worried about the house hold bills and felt like the weight of it all was on her. So I would through out examples of why this isn’t true and kind of want her to plead the case some more so I could understand better. I like facts. I guess I would kind of try to change her out look. What I finally realized is this how my wife feels regardless if I agree or not and that I just need to listen.

So I get this email from my wife today during one of my reunion events. It really got me worked up.
********************************************
I know you are on vacation and I have been going back and forth about this email, but I need to write this to you. I appreciate where you are coming from with things so far, I hear what you are saying and I understand that things are hard to deal with, especially with all the emotional parts of this. 
With that being said, XXXXX is going to be laying people off in the next few months, no one knows how many people or when the exact date is. I am not sure what this means, but it really is starting to tie my hands and in turn yours with the house and our other assets. I am not looking out for only me, I am worried for both of us. We do not need to lose everything, we , me and You do not need to have bad loans, because we both would. I really really really want to work this through with you in mediation. I want to work with you and come to an agreement that works for you and me. 
If you want the house, that is fine, you can have it, but if you do not please please please work with me to have it put on the market and sold. I cannot wait much longer and really don’t want to have to go to a lawyer but will if you are not willing to work with me. I am not asking for a divorce tomorrow but to just work through the division and selling of assets neither of us want, or can afford alone. 
Please at least respond and tell me whether you are willing to work with me or not. 
Take Care, 
********************************************

My wife has a great job and is highly educated. In our area there are not too many options for her to continue to work in her industries. So it is a bit of a pickle…

I am all for moving and selling our home and finding new jobs. I love our house but dislike our community. It is a love hate thing it is tough to explain. Either way it is our home and I don’t want to give it up to an affair or a snap judgment. It’s our home I don’t want to let it go unless my wife and I are moving forward together to a new place.

One nice thing is she is not on the speedy divorce thing any more but is still dead set on selling our house. I would rather see her focusing her attention on getting her resume in order and start doing job search. I went through a bit of a job upheaval 2 years ago and so I know how she feels and how scared she must be. I also realize she may not lose her job at all. I do want her out of there and away from the OM. She has had issues with her job for a long time and I have encouraged her to leave and find a new one multiple times. Maybe I can offer to pay for her resume to be written. I had one written for me a few years back and it really came out well and made a big difference on the job search front.

I could really use some more advice.

JAR


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## Wisp

First off , you are on vacation and she sends you this mail. You have little or no time for face to face dialog. Delay this untill you get back, let her know you can chat on your return.

I do not see why you should sell any assets, you are still married. A sale will help her make a move elsewhere and if you wish to protect your marriage why go through with it.

What I can't find on your posts is if you outed her and the OM to her Boss, you should do this, I know I am a late entry on this and may have missed this at somwhere


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## turnera

Offer to pay for her new resume. Repeat your wish to save your marriage.


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## jar

I agree I don’t really plan to respond to her until I return home.

I did write on her facebook wall and told her I love you and I miss you. I got a text from her saying why would you write that on my face book wall.

Every time I try to do something I get met with nothing but coldness. I didn’t even get a miss you back. This is so hard I don’t know if I have this in me any more. She just wants out and does not show any sine of reconsidering.


JAR


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## turnera

Maybe it's time for Plan B?


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## tamara24

Jar,

I think if she is writing this email to you, she has to still care. If she was totally angry with you, she could care less about what your credit rating turned out to be. This is also an opening for you! Email her back, lets have dinner(either a neutral place, one of your old favorite places, or ask her to make something you really enjoyed. Offer to help her get a good resume written then, not through the email.

I know exactly what your wife is saying. I am going through this myself. So she says you don't do a,b, or c anymore for me. Then you run out and do all three steps in a matter of days when you haven't done it in years. It feels like you did it caused I griped about it and not cause you really wanted to. Get it? There is where the guilt comes in. Your appeasing me so I will stop saying that. My hubby would argue your case, you said you needed this so why the heck are you mad I did it?

As far as the house goes.First, you both agreed you loved the house but not the location, then why hang onto it. She isn't pushing for a quick divorce but she is worried the house is going to create a huge financial matter later.Then sell it! Maybe a new house, starting out new is exactly what you need. Now saying that, she isn't going to sell this house and buy another with you. She might move closer to OM. You need to be prepared for that. When you have dinner with her, talk about what areas around you and her that might be good to relocate for her job and still be close to yours. Don't hound the issue. 

Jar, sometimes those little things mean more than the big things. Ask her to come play at the park with you and the dog. Tell her the dog misses her. SHe will know it is you but who can deny the dog! Stop by her work, leave her a note. Hey was in your area, thought I would see if you were having a good day. If you know she was having a bad day, put a teddy bear in the car and say hey, I heard you needed a hug, since I couldn't give you one, I sent Teddy. It sounds corny and mushy but she needs to feel all warm and gushy inside again about YOU and not the OM. He still is exciting to her. 

Jar, never ever write on her facebook like that. Some of her friends know what is going on and when you write that on her facebook, she feels guilty! Text that to her. Make it personal. Facebook should be kept for general comments. When you get back together, then you can write that on facebook and tell it to the whole world. You got to go back to basics, you have no kids so this should be easy for you to do. DATE your wife Jar. Just like in the beginning and add some new stuff to keep her guessing. If you make her feel bad or guilty about things, she will want to bolt more. Romance her back.

She still cares for you or she would not have mentioned I know your on vacation but I know you will check your email. I need to tell you this. She is worried.LOVE BANK POINT TIME, are you going to make her worry until you get back or are you going to say, honey I get back in two days, do you think we could have dinner and talk about the house thing and the other concerns you have? Which one is going to make your wife respond to you the most? 

Do not argue with her at dinner. Set the rules when you get there. You know this stuff is hard on me and I can't discuss certain things without getting to emotional so how about we have a code word we can use to let the other know we are getting to close to a subject that we are not ready to discuss. Make it something silly so when you do say it. You know she is going to try to press you on things , and you keep yelling bannanas, bannanas! It will make her laugh and keep you both enjoying the evening. Try to make another date with her to discuss how things are going with the job, when you can come over to get stuff, whatever you think will get her to say yes. 

Keep in mind the OM will not be liking the idea of you two getting together and you can bet he will say something that will start a fight. Poof goes that NRE and fog! He may even pull out the stops, to keep her from coming,then stop agreeing to things. You don't need a mediator to talk to your wife,you need to do it!


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## tamara24

P.S. Sorry about the novel.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think that expression was too public. You could have sent her a message. This is a stressful time. The posting on FB was a misstep. Move past it. You just need to tweek your thinking. Be strong and confident. Think...she misses me. You could have posted on FB with something like: We are having a grand time down here. Everyone misses you. Everyone says HI. I'll send some pictures for you. Don't work too hard. We'll work on that stuff you emailed me about when I get home. Luv, JAR
But nothing more personal on the wall. Tamara has some great ideas. They are not needy things. They are expressions of confidence.
As you know, I took my wife to a lunch to discuss business this week. She asked to got to dinner last night. She enjoyed our time together. No relationship stuff, just dating. Give it a go.


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## tamara24

I totally agree with Iamnottheonlyone. The post for facebook that he mentioned is exactly right. 

She even stated she was worried for you both. Don't make her wait. That pulls on the emotion strings. She already put herself out there by emailing you. She even stated she had gone back and forth about emailing you.

This also gives her and her friends an oppurtunity to see the changes you have made. Turnera also hit me over the head this morning, that if I want it to work, I have got to start the changes. You can't do this by avoiding her and how do you think she feels that you have not spoken? 

My guess if she cares enough to write that email with all the deliberations, that somewhere inside her she is thinking, He says the words but no actions. If he can't even talk to me, he isn't really fighting for me either. Saying, yea, well I don't want a divorce and then not attempting to do anything about it is kinda pointless. It just shows her even more the marraige is over.


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## Tanelornpete

> I did write on her facebook wall and told her I love you and I miss you. I got a text from her saying why would you write that on my face book wall.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. She is your wife, you are her husband. She may not want you to say these things to her, especially since she has convinced herself that her affair is the best course of action for her, but it is not wrong to express yourself to your spouse. You can overdo expressions of love, but this was a one time verbalization. Hardly 'overdoing' it. 

My perception of that email differs from some other opinions around here. Over and again your wife has demanded 'mediation' - in effect, 'let me leave you with as much as I can get from you' - and you've been advised that the only mediation you should accept is a mediator willing to work through the problems that separate you. All I see in this email is another attempt to get you to do things her way. Once more she argues:

"...We do not need to lose everything, we , me and You do not need to have bad loans, because we both would. I really really really want to work this through with you in mediation. I want to work with you and come to an agreement that works for you and me..."

Well, what works for you? Recovering your marriage? Or divorce? The fog talk in her letter is simple: 'Come on, be nice, do thing my way. I want a divorce, and I want you to help me get it.'


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## turnera

I agree. You don't have to do anything. Help her find a new job and get away from OM, maybe. That's about all I would advise. Let her stamp her feet.


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## jar

Well she deleted my coment off of face book. I left her a smily yesterday and she deleted that as well. I guess I desirve it. Not a good booster. So bumed...
Will update later out on the town with my family tonight

jar
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

jar said:


> Well she deleted my coment off of face book. I left her a smily yesterday and she deleted that as well. I guess I desirve it. Not a good booster. So bumed...
> Will update later out on the town with my family tonight
> 
> jar
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am guessing that her deletions are a source of pain. Why not simply save yourself that problem and refuse to view her page! Hide her comments (you can unhide them later...) and simply stay away from things that cause pain!


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## jar

I agree my face book comment was way to public. I reallydont know what I was thinking on that one. I almost never post anything and for her to delete that stuff hurts my feelings. 

I would love to date my wife again. I am just down in the dumps. It is a lot of rejection to take...especially from my wife. I would love to help her with this job thing. I just don’t even think she would be willing to sit down with me and be civil at a return or something. 

I would be ok with selling our house if I know we were going to start a fresh life together. My sense of home is really around her and not necessarily our house. I feel like if the house goes there will be nothing tying us together any longer.

I feel like my wife hates me for some reason. 

Pete I thin you are right...I just don’t know what to say or do...Everyone is giving me some great recommendations but I am having a hard time figuring out how to get things rolling...Like I said I feel like everything I do is met with just more blows to the heart.

I really could use some more help. I guess I can start working on a plan in the am...

Jar


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## tamara24

Jar
She has already asked for. A divorce,you moved out and she is still seeing OM. The house is not what is tying you to her. She is even delayed getting a lawyer.

It is up to you to get her back. If you sound angry and insist to only meet her through mediation,how do you think she is going to run to you?

You have to make a step soon,she can't be that angry if she emailed you about her concerns,also she. Would probably look at your attempt to meet to discuss the house/job issues as away of you coming around. Only you know the real reason you would be meeting.

The more emotional distance you can put between her and OM,the better your chance to get her to start reconsidering things. If you continue to give tthe silent treatment, you are pushing her further away. Even if you put the house on the market today, it most likely is going to sell by the afternoon. You still have bills and the dog. If you start talking, that may give you that connection you are looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

She hates you because you are standing in her way. Because she feels guilt she doesn't want to admit, so she vilifies you. Because she doesn't want to have to admit she made a mistake and is a fool. Because she has convinced herself you do NOT hold the key to her happiness and she just wishes you would get out of her way.


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## jar

turnera said:


> She hates you because you are standing in her way. Because she feels guilt she doesn't want to admit, so she vilifies you. Because she doesn't want to have to admit she made a mistake and is a fool. Because she has convinced herself you do NOT hold the key to her happiness and she just wishes you would get out of her way.


How can I get the ball rolling with conversation. Do I email her and say something like afaircare req. I could use some more help here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think you need to decide what you're doing. Are you in Plan A or B? If you're in A, just be consistent in letting her know about everyday things, as if she weren't acting like an idiot. Extend a hand as long as it doesn't help her stay away from you. Any time the affair comes up you just say I'm ready for you to come home as soon as you are ready to; you know what I need. If divorce comes up, you say "I have no desire to divorce, I married for life and I believe in fixing problems, not running from them.'

And always follow affaircare's advice.


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## tamara24

You know your wife, we can tell you what to say to start but you need to soul search and figure out what you think will start up a conversation. Could it be a conversation about the dog, the house, your fish tank. 

I am not sure what Turnera is discussing when referring to plan A or plan B, it could be in one of the books I ordered. I agree that you should stay firm and keep your mission in mind but you still need to talk. 

Have you even attempted to call her and say anything to her?


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## Tanelornpete

> I am not sure what Turnera is discussing when referring to plan A or plan B, it could be in one of the books I ordered. I agree that you should stay firm and keep your mission in mind but you still need to talk.


Here is a link to what we use at affaircare: (steps 5 and 6 are very similar to Plan A and Plan B) - this will give you a good idea of what Turnera meant.

Regarding talking to her: talk, and action, is good, unless any of it enables the affair - either by excusing it, financing it, or releasing the Disloyal Spouse from marital obligations.

I agree with Turnera: Jar - you should probably determine where you are: Plan A or B - would make things much easier...

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## iamnottheonlyone

W needs to see the real you. She needs to see the regular guy. The guy she fell in love with. You need to be natural and confident. If you are talking business then talk business. My guess is it would be appropriate to say frimly at some appropriate point that you are committed to her and the marraige and that you love her. But it must be frim and not needy. You are partners in this. Nothing wrong in saying that either. Tell her that you respect her opinion and her arguments are valid. Compliment her analysis. Work over the numbers with her. Give her credit where credit is due. Concleude nothing. No relationship discussion unless she brings it up. 
So lets imagine she does. She says, Just like the old JAR. You haven't changed one bit. One of the problems I have with you is you never could make a quick call. Everything takes forever with you." Your responce is (A) That's not true or (B) Tell me more. Ineed to know. So (B) is the answer right? Listen and validate. AC would say don;t explain your position. Repeat her statement so that it is clear to her that you understand her. "So you are saying I always drag my feet. Correct. And this made you unhappy. And I could make you happy by being more decisive. What else could I have done to amke you happy?"


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## jar

All of you are right. I need to make a decision on Plan A or Plan B. The last couple of weeks I have been confused about where I am at. All I know is the silent treatment really isn’t working what so ever. She needs to see me and hear from me. So at this point I am choosing Plan A…..This is not going to be easy on me…But I have had several weeks to regroup and process so I think I can do a really good Plan A…I am trying to be positive.

I have been down in the dumps the past few days because every where I turn there is an affair. I learned this week that one of my cousins that I grew up with is having an affair and she has basically destroyed her family, and career because of it. She has 3 gorgeous kids. The affair is over for her but she has already shacked up with another man…It is so sad…She isn’t even divorced yet.

So I think I am going to start by responding to the last email my wife sent. I am going to recommend we get together for dinner…So here is what Affaircare recommend the other day. I think it is really good but I think I need to change it around a bit.


"Thanks for the heads up about the AT&T account. I appreciate your taking responsibility for your choices. I will contact them and let them know how I'd like to set up the account. Again, thank you. 

Regarding mediation over bigger items, the only big item I choose to mediate is how to recover our marriage and reconcile. I do not choose divorce and thus do not believe the marriage is irreconcilable or over. Have you thought anymore about being ready to mediate further with me about creating a loving, happy, passionate marriage that honors our vows?"

Here is what I am would like to send.

Thank you for the heads up on the AT&T account. I appreciate you taking the initiative to get this taken care of. I will contact them when I return from vacation and get my account squared away. Again, thank you.

I am so sorry to hear about the changes **** is going through. I know how important your work and research have been. You have really worked hard and contributed a lot to the success of the company and all this seems so unfair. I really know how you feel. I went through the same emotions when I lost my job. I never did a good job sharing them with you. I was so scared about what to do next and was devastated to be leaving a job that I cared so much about. 

Regarding mediation over bigger items. I am still in a much different place than you and the only big item I choose to mediate is how to recover our marriage and reconcile. I do not choose divorce and do not believe the marriage is irreconcilable or over. I still want to mediate further and want to create a loving, happy, passionate marriage that honors our vows and that we both enjoy being a part of.

That is how I feel at the moment. I am still processing and coping with many emotions. I really appreciate you taking the time to understand where I am coming from. 

On a bit of a lighter note. Vacation and the reunion have been really enjoyable. It has been fun to catch up with the family. All of my little second cousins are so much fun. Everyone miss you and wishes that you could have made it.

I was thinking that when I get back that it would be nice to get together and check in with one another. I would like to take you out to *** and have a really nice quite relaxing dinner and catch up a bit. If you are interested I could bring some photos from the reunion so that you could see them. I really miss your family and the twins and would love to hear about how they are doing. 

If this is something that you would like to do let me know. I would like to keep the conversation light so that we don’t get confrontational with one another. Just a nice relaxing evening.

Also about the dog…I wasn’t planning to have her come to my place until august. I must have gotten my dates mixed up. Would you mind keeping her for anther week or two? I haven’t finished setting things up for her and installing her new invisible fence.

Love
Jar

Let me know what you guys think. Thank you all for your comment and recommendation.


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## turnera

Sounds good to me.


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## tamara24

Personally, I like your version. I have not looked at affaircare so I am not sure about repeating your only interested in working on the marraige. This might be a great stradegy, but if she is avoiding you because she knows you want to work on the marraige if it is wise to keep enforcing that. I am not the expert on that. 

Are you not going to discuss the house? A house is a house, if you both loved the house, hated the area and had bad drama at the house, why would you not discuss that? Regardless of what you decided, it doesn't sound like either of you were happy there. I don't think the house will hold her either way.

The fact she emailed you, the fact she didn't like the facebook entry, and the fact she has not filed for divorce for someone who was wanting it all to over, shows that she cares for you. The silent treatment is not helping your case.Keep in mind some things get lost in translation. Instead of emailing her, why cn't you pick up the phone ad call her.You could use the issue of the dog as your reason of calling and bring the rest in. 

It is your call. You should know her likes and dislikes and even though you are going through tons of emotions, you know what will push her buttons and what will get a good response. All the advice in the world can be given and be really good, but we don't know your wife so we can only advise by what you have told us.

A book and websites can lend really good advice. That is why I am here.But you know your wife and do some soul searching and what she has told you. Were you doing the minimum in romance, couple time,and one on one interaction? Did you take some things for granted? I am sure she has to, but you are the villian here. She wants to just see the bad in you so she can see the good in OM. I think this emailing and texting is keeping you apart. Is this how you communicated when you were married? I realize that your feelings were hurt and this might have been your only way of communicating, but you need to show her your above this, you are evolving and willing to listen(was this one of her complaints?). 

I am not saying don't email her, that is your choice but if I would not respond if I were her by having dinner with you if you were going to harp on me about getting back together through dinner? I already feel guilty, so what is my incentive if you are only going to mediate why I should come back?

Good luck!


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## jar

Well I emailed her. The same email that I previously posted. We will see how she responds. I am not expecting much from her. I am sure it will be upsetting to me...Trying to stay Positive...

JAR


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## Affaircare

Jar~

In a way it feels to me like you're all over the place, so can I help you with something?

If you are in Plan A/Carrot & Stick is both a positive encouragement to show her it is safe to come home, and a negative to show her what it costs to continue the affair. Overall the big goal is End The Affair...so all your actions should aim toward that, ending the affair. 

*The "Carrot"* part would be to determine the Love Extinguishers you did that contributed to marital harm, learn how to end those extinguishers, and then practice ending them. This focus is on YOU and your own growth and being the better man you can be. The next part of the "Carrot" part would be to determine what HER Love Kinders are and wherever possible, meet those needs. The trick is that you can not kindle love where the extinguisher continue, and partly I think that's what you've been trying to do. If you try that, you are adding branches to the fire while simultaneously dumping water on the fire--and those branches don't "catch" do they? Nope--you have to stop dumping water first, and THEN kindle! If you try to kindle when the extinguishers haven't stopped, then she will push them away, feel guilty, and not like the things she claims to like. (Sound familiar?) 

ALSO, even if you have stopped the extinguishers (and honestly it does sound like you do pretty good with them), right now she's heavily into the disloyal dizziness of an affair! So she won't like it when you remind her she's already married...or that she's committing adultery...or that she's hurting you. Rather than take personal responsibility for her choices, it's easier to justify and blame you. Sooooo...if you are pretty confident you have stopped extinguishers and you offer a kindler and she gives ya grief for it---just remind yourself it's Disloyal Dizziness and you reminded her that what she's doing is wrong. 

So the "Carrot" part of this phase is about YOU focusing on YOU and becoming the best man you can be. Don't look so much at what she's doing or saying, or spend as much time obsessing about her. Every time you have a thought about her, stop yourself and say out loud, "What do I need to be doing right now to be the man I have the potential to be?" Then, even if/when she protests a little, you be that man! It is highly LIKELY that she will not like constant reminders she's married, or that YOU are the man she has the legal and moral obligation to love and be sexual with. That's okay. That doesn't mean that if you feel love you shouldn't express it! And YOU are her husband, not the OM, so it is right and reasonable for a husband to write a loving little note on his wife's facebook! 

If this is the phase you want to choose, that's cool! Here are my suggestions: don't look at her and what she's doing and how she reacts and try to get her to say something loving to you--she is a DISLOYAL SPOUSE. The Evil Twin. She is not going to be very loving right now, so for a little while accept that. You just let her be in a foggy whirlwind right now and keep your focus steadily on you, your choices, your responsibilities and what you should be doing. I recommend starting with the Love Extinguishers and write it as if she is answering about what you did to her. Okay? 

Finally, regarding tamara's comment: 


> ...I am not sure about repeating your only interested in working on the marraige. This might be a great stradegy, but if she is avoiding you because she knows you want to work on the marraige if it is wise to keep enforcing that.


Naturally I assumed you would add some of your own wording and paraphrase, etc. and your goal is not the Spanish Inquisition of Relationship Talks or forcing her to discuss marriage, but more like "You may have a goal of divorce, but I do not share that goal. I don't believe it's irreconcilable and so it would not be true to my inner self to participate in breaking my promises. I'd be happy to (insert what you can do here)." 

Does that make sense? You can not force her to love you, Jar, nor to see things your way or do things your way. But that doesn't mean you have to do things her way either. You are able to be true to yourself and what you want, and that is NOT the divorce. You can talk about moving (together as a couple), selling the house to buy another one (as a couple), ways of refinancing that DO work for you--anything that it true to you and what you want which would a) honor your marriage or b) end the affair. When she brings up something that is not in line with you and your goals, just be polite and say, "I'm sorry I don't choose to discuss that right now. I would be willing to discuss XYZ." So you are not FORCING her to discuss marriage; you are controlling YOU ... and you choose to not participate in divorce.


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## iamnottheonlyone

If the affair is not over you can not win her back. However you can hold your ground. You work on you and wait for the burn out. At the stage you and I are at, the drug has to lose its affect. As the fog begins to lift she will see the changes. But she needs time to trust the changes. Don't be jumping the gun. I know you would hope she would jump in your arms when she sees you. It ain't gonna happen. But in time it will.


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## jar

You guys are right I have been all over the place...I realized this during vacation. So like I said I am working on plan A...The past 2 months she has had the silent treatment basically from me and I regret that. I also regret leaving but I can’t dwell on that. I needed that time to regroup and deal with some of my own stuff...Now I am ready to take on plan A. I just hope I haven’t caused too much damage and that she hasn’t grown any closer to the OM...

No email from W yet....I decided to email her...I guess because I am not fully comfortable with calling just yet...

Thank you for the redirection and reminding me the steps of plan A again…I have been all over the place the past few weeks.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am with you JAR. 
We are on the same page. I am not giving my W the silent treatment, but I am not just calling her to talk. She called me Wednesday but she has been with OM the last 4 days. My hope is that things are following the expected form. That the two of them are wearing on each other. That reality is sinking in. Things are not all fantasy. We must have faith. And we must do the best we can on Plan A. I don't think I have done anything so emotionally difficult than this. Have patience. And remember, you don't speak divorce.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Jar,

Don't kick yourself for being all over the place. I think I did everything wrong regarding my H's affair at first. He has said those actions drew him even more to her. He ended it 2 1/2 months ago, and this past week said he loved me and wanted to be married to me. When I found this site I started to get "my act" together and it has worked. He still is in his apartment and we still have some "deal breakers" (more mine than his) to contend with, but there is a good chance he will move home within a month or so. I have learned the real meaning of patience for sure!

Their affairs send us into a tailspin and it is easier than not to loose focus and act out of those emotions. Just try to think through things before saying/doing anything from now on.


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## jessi

Hi Jar, 
glad you had a nice time on your vacation and it sure looks like you are starting to move on with YOUR life, that's important. 
Decide where you are in your plan and just stick to your plan without a lot of expectation......move on with your life and if she wakes up and you are still around then you can work on your life together, if you have move past her than so be it......
You can't change her mind she can only do this......
Let her take care of any details that need to be done, if she wants to move on with OM she will have to do the work.......be nice and Plan A when you can but that is all you can do at this point.....
Keep up working on you and your life, enjoy it again.....you might be surprised what happens......


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## jar

No response to the email I sent my wife yet. 

I finished His Needs Her Needs last night. It is a really wonderful book. I am working on some of the questioners right now. I am trying to fill them out with my response as well as what my wife might right to help gain some insight.

Hopefully by tomorrow I will be able to summarize some of the results.

I also started a new book called not just friends. My wife read it a few months back. It is interesting the authors have many statics about affairs.

I have read in multiple places now that many marriages where affairs occur do not end in divorce. I find that interesting. I have two relatives that are going through it now. The wives are the ones having the affair and the result is they are divorcing. I find that interesting because according to the statistics one couple should be reconciling, and in at least one instant the husband should be having the affair according to the statics. I realize my sample size is kind of small and it is tough to really gain any kind of conclusion.

JAR


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> I have read in multiple places now that many marriages where affairs occur do not end in divorce. I find that interesting. I have two relatives that are going through it now. The wives are the ones having the affair and the result is they are divorcing. I find that interesting because according to the statistics one couple should be reconciling, and in at least one instant the husband should be having the affair according to the statics. I realize my sample size is kind of small and it is tough to really gain any kind of conclusion.


LOL :lol: :rofl: Yeah it is a little hard to get statistical analysis from THREE occurrences, Jar. You're such a J it's cute. 

Okay statistically most marriages (like 99%) that are hit by an affair are THREATENED with divorce, but don't actually end up divorcing. The numbers say 34% end in divorce as a direct consequence of infidelity--just statistically you have a 2 in 3 chance of not divorcing due to the affair. Of those who don't divorce though, the numbers say that as many as 75% would not categorize their marriage as "happy" and that's because often one will cheat, the other is hurt, and neither one addresses why did this happen and how can I change so it doesn't happen again? 

Sooooooo... if you want the best statistical shot of not only staying married but also being in that 25% that are happy, the pivotal key finding out what actions extinguished love and then making the commitment to change so you do not do them again! If you send her flowers, write FB love notes, or even serenade her under her window with a song you wrote just for her--it would not be received and kindle love as long as the love extinguishers continue. 

It's hard to face yourself and admit, "Yep, I was a Scorekeeper. I kept a little tally in my head of everything *I* was doing for the marriage and everything she did, and I made sure to let her know that she was NOT up to snuff." Right? One of my guesses is that you are pretty much of a J personality type (that means Judger and a J is not judgmental--they like things in order, analyzed, by the rules). I bet she's a P personality type (Perceiver) and you wanted things done by the rules or analyzed things but she wanted you to comfort her or validate her...not "fix it". So want to save your marriage? Don't focus so much on her. Focus on how to validate; practice it everywhere you can; give it a try.


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## jar

Lol...Afaircare I am glad you find my analysis cute. What I can say some times I just can’t help myself from thinking this way. I am sure it won’t come as a big surprise to you to learn that I am an engineer.

So for the fun of it I took a personality quiz. I don’t recall taking one before and I am a ENTJ. So you were correct in your observation. I found the description for this personality very interesting. I would say it is about right. Luckily I chose the profession that was recommend and even one of the colleges. I find it a bit comical.

I also took the test on my wife’s behalf. I could be completely wrong but she is ISFJ...I read through her personality type and I would say it is pretty accurate to a degree. I could be completely wrong seeing how I took the quiz for her. According to the description she is in the wrong profession. Maybe that is why she has so many problems with co workers some times.

Either way that judging characteristic is in both of our make ups. In conversation with her in the past that is one of her biggest hang ups she hates feeling judged by others. It really upsets her even know she is of the judging personality type. She worries about it constantly. This is why I am not sure if I got her personality type completely figured out but I think I am close.

JAR


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## jar

She also could be a ESFJ…I can’t decide. I guess only she knows.


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## Affaircare

Just so you know, that J does stand for Judger, but it doesn't mean Judgmental or someone who judges others. 

The E or I would indicates Extrovert or Introvert, which is where you turn to gather energy. Do you turn outward to people and actions or inward to ideas and reflecting? Do you get energized going to a party with a bunch of people? Or does that suck the energy out of you? 

The N or S would indicate iNtuitive or Sensing, which is the way a person gathers information. Do you trust info that is tangible and concrete? Or do you tend to trust your hunches and look to an abstract or theory? Sensing might tend to like "data" and Intuitive just "get a feeling". 

The F or T would stand for Feeler or Thinker and this one I've noticed often is thought of along gender lines: women are thought of as Feelers, men as Thinkers. Anyway, this is the way you make a decision. Okay you have energy, you've gathered info...how do you make your decision? If you use reason, logic, and rationality you may be a Thinker! If you use empathy, association, harmony, or relationships to decide, you may be a Feeler. Do you sit an analyze an argument looking for "where it went wrong and how to fix it?" using rules of engagement? That would be a Thinker. Do you cry and hurt and have emotions overwhelm you after an argument so that you can't think straight at all until the storm inside you settles down? Yeah-probably a Feeler. 

Finally P and J stand for Perceiver and Judger, and that would indicate the person's... well their lifestyle I guess. If you are a Perceiver, you might be easy going and see 100 possibilities for how a certain situation might turn out. If you are a Judger, given the information and decision that means there is only one outcome--THIS. So usually a P likes to keep things open to possibilities and kind of roll with the flow there is no schedule; whereas a J likes things in a certain order, a certain schedule, have matters settled. A good example would be a P gets in the car and head EAST with some idea of a few places they may head toward, have no idea how long they'll be gone...they're just taking a drive. A J gets in the car, has a destination, knows the most efficient route, and knows how long it should all take: order.


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## jar

Nothing new to report. I have not heard from my wife since she emailed me last week wanting to sell our home and threatening legal action if I did not agree. She also explained that her company was going to start laying people off and that she was worried. 

I emailed her back recommending we get together for dinner and talk about her work situation and catch up. Also explained that I choose marriage and not divorce. I have had no response from her yet. I hope that my email has made her think a lot about things. I wonder how she and the OM are doing. Maybe she is working with a layer and filling for divorce. Maybe she is doing nothing and just sitting on the couch eating chips and not dealing with reality. Tough to know what is going through her head right now? 

Been reading more than just friends the past few evenings. Another good book about affairs and the different stages and emotions that all parties involved go through. So far I would recommend it. 

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Someone mentioned another book, "How to Save Your Marriage Alone". One reviewer stated it turned him/her into a doormat enabling other affairs. They must have had the WS still at home. JAR- we are on our own. If your W isn't contacting you then she probably is spinning her wheels. After all the drama about our SUV my W hasn't mentioned it in a week. I say this is good. It is now about space for us and not enabling or cause love extinguishers. She knows you love her. She hasn't filed so don't stir anything up unless you change your mind and want to divorce.
I will pick up "More than.." 
It is just hard to retain this materials. I look at the conversation I had with my W last night and I can see the extinguishers all over the place. But I just lost it because she is trying to manipulate our son. More reading and more practice. I was talking over her and not listening. So with your W you have some time to study and not trip over your own feet.


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## jar

I am in research mode write now. Since my wife isn’t talking to me I am trying to figure out what the extinguishers are. I have been doing the questioners from marriage builders and affaircare as well as some personality tests. Trying to understand myself better. I am also doing these questioners as if my wife had answered the questions herself. The questions have made me think a lot. I also plan to pick up love busters book tonight on my way home. 

As soon as I get a grip on these I will share with the group. I am sure I will need some advice.

JAR


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## Affaircare

Cool that sounds good, Jar. I think if you keep your focus on the things that extinguished the love, and keep your focus on yourself and making improving as a person, you'll go far. 

One of the hardest things to do is to look at yourself and say, "yep I do that...and doing that hurt my marriage" but taking personal responsibility like that is commendable. You can learn new ways to react and healthier options, and then practice them...and whether it's in the new, rebuilt marriage to this wife, or another marriage, you would be a better man and better husband. 

I would also encourage you to find one activity that is something you just love to do for fun. As an example, join a class or a softball team, go to a bible study, become a regular at the coffeehouse open mic night--something that is distinctly YOU that you enjoy that you were not able to do while you were married. The idea is not to be resentful that you couldn't do it, but to remember that there are things you like to do because you're YOU, and to return to that guy. Do something you consider fun! Dear Hubby and I do DND Game Night, we play WOW and other games together, we go to car shows and dog shows...so pick something that is YOU and have a little bit of a life.


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## jar

I am digging deep to understand things. 

I keep reading these books just so I can better internalize things and not forget. Basically all of the books I have read give the same basic information. 

I am looking into some new activities to try out. Things I have always wanted to try. I am looking at photography course and scuba diving lessons that are being offered in the area. Both things that interest me but I have always been to busy for. I am also thinking I might get back into golfing.

In the summer I live for the weekends and nice weather. I spend every free minute I can out on our boat. It has always been something my wife and I have enjoyed together. In the middle of her worst fog she explained she hated boating and everything about it. (It was crazy talk)

Lat night was therapy night. I told my therapist that I contacted my wife and not had a response yet. My therapist asked the question what if my wife does not contact me or want to get together. I really hadn’t considered that. I guess I figure it can’t hurt to ask. I really wonder what is going on in affair land and what my wife is going through. This no contact with her the past two months has been good for me. I have very little stress in my life these days. Overall my therapist said I was doing ok and coping well my circumstances. I have mediation with my wife in another week or so. I am 98% certain I am not going. 

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am happy to hear that your are leveling off. That fact that you are considering other hobbies is great. I am really getting into the guitar now. I am palying for about an hour a night. Ofcourse when I started I was playing the lost love songs. There are quite a few on the radio now and I mastered several of them. However, now I can't stand hearing them. I have taken up happier tunes. 
I think the new hobbies will be great for you. Scuba diving in New England is interesting. When I trained we did a number of quarry dives. The quarries give you some deep dives in a confined space. And at the bottoms there is usually some interesting trash. I think you will find the experience very enjoyable.
You are probably right about not going to the mediation. If it feels right after a thorough anaysis, it is probably right for you.


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## jar

I got a random text tonight from the wife. She wanted to know when I am going to pick up the dog and when I plan to take care of my fish tank. I guess it was my once a week contact from her.

I explained that it would be a week or two and for the fish tank and that my landlord has not given me final approval for the dog. I kept it civil. She responded with next weekend would not work because she has plans and that I need to inform her when I plan to be there and how long it would take. So I cordially setup a date and time to return to my own house. Wonder what her plans are. My guess is her family is coming to visit and she does not want me to show up. For all I know they are packing the house up. I asked how our dog was and she responded great I was hoping to open a bit more conversation up with her. Her texts were very cold as usual. 

No mention of my email to her. Wonder what all this silence means. Hopefully I am depositing a love unit in her bank with the fish tank. Acts of service is a love kindler for her.

I must be doing a bit better because these texts and emails usually send me off the deep end for a few hours and this time I am fine. Maybe it is just ambivalence.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Time is healing the wound. Besides, you have seen just about everything. There aren't many surprises that could psych you out. Keep your cool. Hey, thanks for chanting my mantra!


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## turnera

What are your plans in case you don't end up with her?


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## jar

Well Turnera

I have a few ideas.


The unrealistic plan and not really very responsible option

Sell all my stuff quite my job and buy a huge boat and spend a year or two on the boat exploring the world. Quote (Boats and Ho’s) movie step brothers

The other more adult plan

I am not very happy with the direction my career has taken in the past two years. I have rediscovered the type of work I enjoy, find stimulating, and rewording. I have also realized how important the environment in which I work and the over all culture of the company is to me. I will be finding a new job that can meet my needs.

I would like to move closer to the ocean or a large lake. I have a few areas in mind and all can meet my career requirements.

One thing I have learned is I will never own an old house again. I am sick of spending all of our free time and money on renovations. I would like to build a house. I really enjoy architecture and have found an architect that I really like and specializes in the style/type of home that I want to have. I don’t have dreams of some great big mansion I want a small cozy little house with lots of character and detail. 

In my free time I would like to do some traveling. I have a number of places in the world I would like to visit.

Hopefully along the way I can find a companion that I enjoy being in a relationship with and can meet my needs. The ideal situation for me would be to continue my marriage with my wife.

I have had the more adult plan on my mind for over a year now and think about it often. My wife and I tried to make these changes about two years ago when the economy was crashing around us and we just could not make the changes for a number of reasons. I still regret that we didn’t figure it out. 

I think my plan is very do able and realistic and is something that I can archive on my own. I am giving my self till next summer. My needs may change as I figure things out for myself and I want to give myself lots of time. One thing I have realized when I look to the future is life doesn’t seem too lonely, depressing, or scary anymore with out my wife in the picture. I also have enough confidence in my self to know that I will be ok and will be able to achieve my goals in life with out her.

I can still think that our marriage could recover and be even better than it ever has been with a little bit of hard work. It is what I want still. My heart still thinks that there is hope for a positive out come to this affair. However my analytical side of my brain is constantly telling me she will never come out of her fog and want to be in this marriage and to give up. I don’t think things are looking good for us at the moment.

JAR


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## jessi

I say keep moving on with your life plan and if she comes back then you can work on a new plan if she doesn't then so be it and keep moving forward.......I think you will not have any problem finding a new friend to share some of this with, I think it sounds great........
I say let her figure out on her own what her life will be without you.......
Only she can make her decisions and you can't wait forever.....it sounds like you are in a much better place now and I'm convinced you will survive and thrive in your new life.....
There is nothing more sexy than a confident, sensitive man.......
Wishing you happy days ahead.......


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## turnera

It sounds like an amazing plan.


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## jar

I am beginning to understand the love buster and kindlers as well as our individual needs. So I took the opportunity that presented it self to contact my wife again....I got a response this time and it is not very pleasant. 

She paid the bills yesterday and sent me email with all of the payment confirmation numbers. So I took the opportunity to email her back. I explained I had paid my bills and transferred the agreed amount of money to her. 

I thanked her again for taking care of my fish tank in my absence and how much I appreciated it. (Acts of service is one of her love languages) So I wanted to acknowledge my appreciation and deposit a few love units. 

I gave her an update on each of my family members and what was new with them. (Part of her personality make up is a strong connection and closeness with family)

I also threw in a few sentences about what I have been up to. Mostly general stuff about work and projects. Real light hearted stuff. (A complaint of hers in therapy was me not checking in with her during the day and not having any kind of connection to me. However when I did these things she was rather ambivalent)

I explained that I missed her family and hoped they were doing well. I especially mentioned my twin nieces who I miss a ton. Asked her to tell them that I love them and miss them. (Her family is very important to her and I and I feel very disconnected from them)

I told her I miss her and still love her. (I am sure this was a love extinguisher)

Noting needy about the email. Just general chit chat and appreciation for keeping things up at home. 

I was doing well yesterday and feeling confident in my future with or with out her. Today I am down in the dumps. Her response was really hurtful. 

I caused so much damage by leaving and having no contact with her. I wish I could have stepped my game up much more while I was still at home and working on things. I did the best I could at the time and it wasn’t enough.

Here is her response no mention of her family etc.….

As for everything else, I have not changed my mind and still want a divorce. I have also come to the realization that you are just not going to mediate with me. I have been in contact with XXXX and she was supposed to contact you. If you are not going to mediate with me then I see no reason to go on Thursday, and waste time and money. I would like things to be civil and if you will not move forward and work things through with me then I plan to move things forward on my own, and hopefully you will cooperate with me and this can still be civil and not hostile. 

She is adamant about this divorce. I just don’t want to give up on her. I am a determined person but I can’t see much hope for our marriage but also cant except that it is over for her and this is what she wants.

I know the work I am doing on my self is going to benefit me in a positive way no matter what. 

Interesting note on the affair. I assume it is going strong still. But I was looking at the general stats of her cell bill for the last few months and she spends only about an hour a week on her cell phone. Her cell usage has decreased some since I left. I find that interesting. She is not really talking-to anyone for any length of time especially her affair partner. Nothing stopping her form talking to him all night long. The affair with the OM has always been more internet, text message, and work related. I didn’t dig into the bill and look at numbers and text messages. It would just drive me nuts because I am sure I would not like what I would find. Maybe she isn’t talking with him so much on the cell because they are always together. Maybe text, work, and internet is still there only means of communication. I am sure I am just over thinking things. Just interesting

Patience… Patience…Patience (I just hope my patience don’t run out or I get served with divorce papers)

JAR


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## jar

One last thing 

Everyone is telling me give up on her…move on… I don’t want my wife…I deserve better…etc.

I appreciate everyone’s opinions…But I don’t want to hear comments like that.

I know what I want and I still want this marriage. I was confidante the day we were married that I wanted to spend my life with this woman and I still feel this way. Divorce is not an option I am willing to consider right now. 

I really could use people’s advice and help. I am not very good with this relationship stuff and need help so I don’t f*** things up even more.

What can I say or do next…Our anniversary is this month…I have some ideas for some love kindlers….Also the week after next I am meant to return home to deal with my fish tank…So I have some interactions coming up with her. I need to make deposits in to her love bank. ASAP

Thank you
Jar


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## turnera

I wish I had better advice, but the truth is, you can't make her want you. You can do what you know you should do, and take what happens.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR- You are so disciplined. You keep working on you. She can do what she wants. But you don't have to participate.
After reading your posts I went back and looked at the kindlers and extinguishers. Six weeks ago when I looked at the extinguishers, I didn't see many that I did. Now I look at them and I did many, many the few weeks before D-day. But I think she was setting me up at the time. I look back and I can see where she was pushing my buttons. That made it easier for her to make the separation. 
Same thing with the kindlers. Her avoidance of me made it very difficult for me to love bank anything. Spo, thanks for the posts.
I also need to work more on the boy/girl communication.


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## tamara24

Jar,
You sound more confident than your earlier posts. I have not read the books and do not claim to be an expert. I do think preparing and reading are all good things. My question to you is this. You are analizing everything from your personality to answering questionaires the way you think your wife would answer. You now know that you did some of these love extinguishers before the big break up. So if you are not seeing her, how do you plan on her coming back? I realize some of these folks have wonderful advice on how to handle the affair. But what about showing her and touching her? 

I am in a marraige now that has its own issues, but you echoed your wife's complaints and I could swear some of it was me. It was the little things that he stopped doing. The kid parts don't pertain to you but the taking her for granted and not listening to her parts do. I would never cheat as I took a solemn vow to make a committment.But I can see where the excitement for OM comes in. It is the attention, the little details and such. However wrong it may be, she chose this path because she wasn't getting her needs met. 
How are you showing her you can meet those needs by staying away from her? I know part of it is the advice of how to deal with the affair,but what does it show your wife? I do like your last email to her. It sounded more personal than the one you wrote on vacation. I didn't think she would reply to that. She does not want some soppy guy either. I think if you show her that you have made decisions and changes, she might start thinking WOW. You have read all aout love banking, even writing down thoughts, when do you plan to act?

I DO think you should continue to work on yourself. You are only changing for the better and regardless of what happens,you will have that. From my own thoughts, if all you did was text me, embarrass me on Facebook, and email me, I would not think you are capable of change and that you are not interested in making anything work. 
Hanging on to a house that neither of you were happy with(area wise) will not keep her from moving on. But it might be a great way for you to negotiate. Ok, so the house is a huge issue, I will put it on the market if you agree to marraige counseling before filing for divorce for three months and maybe dinner once a week to discuss other things. This stuff can be worked on through the mediator. If the one you have does not want to work on anything but divorce than find another!
Even after all the crap my hubby has put me through, even if I was in an EA, I would be watching for his actions. Are you going to analize everything to death or are you going to act. Remember actions speak louder than words!
DO keep improving yourself. Do keep gathering more info, reading and such. Do not become a sop for her(she was still wrong with her actions),you are only becoming stronger.I wish you luck!


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## jar

I just finished not just friends by Shirley Glass. Really great read I highly recommend.

Tamara

You are 100 percent correct. I needed some time to get my self organized and regroup and deal with myself. I am feeling much more confidante and feel like I have some footing underneath me. Now it is time to take action. Your ideas are the type of things I need to help with. You are right texting and emails are not great lines of communication. I am in the process of writing a very personal email with my new understanding of things. It is going to take me a few nights to get things written out. I am hoping that this will help open up the door to more positive interactions with one another. It is a start. I realize I can’t come on to strong, controlling, or desperate. Here is the thing I need to receive a positive response from her as well. Otherwise I feel really rejected. 

Thank you
JAR


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## jar

Well I got this email from my wife this morning. It is somewhat positive.

I paid the xyz you will have to go online to see that payment. Sorry if my email this
weekend seemed harsh, I really want to mediate with you through our
separating I am just extremely frustrated. I will be at mediation
Thursday at 5pm like planned.


My response

Thank you for the update….Thank you for the apologies as well….My behavior has been rather harsh as well…I am very sorry for that.

I realize you are frustrated. I really can sympathize with how you must feel. 

I really have been working on myself and with my counselors to cope with these changes the best that I can. I have really leaned a lot about myself the past few weeks.

The first few chapters of not just friends really some up the emotions and feelings I have been experiencing.

Love
JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
You sound like you are okay now even though this isn't your choice as to how things should be......
You can't make her change her mind especially if she is still in her Affair......she can only think of that relationship now.....
All you can do is be the understanding, caring supportive one she has in her life, when the affair falls apart like they all seem to she will remember what is good about you........
This might take a long time to wait and let things play out.....she seems determined to move on with the divorce......
Just because you divorce doesn't mean you can't still work things out......I know a couple who just got back together after 12 years apart......Jar, just keep your mind open to meeting new friends, who knows what that might bring for you........
You don't have to give up, just keep doing what you are doing and I don't have a problem with you saying the you still love her and want your marriage to work, that is how you feel......
we all have regrets in our marriage, that's why we are all here.....
Be happy and she will see that......


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## tamara24

Instead of writing another email, why don't you call her? Email her and state that you want to call her and would it be o.k. if you called after you are off work. Jar, when you email,she doesn't see any of the emotions or emphises on certain issues.

Do you still plan to skip mediation? I know you are concerned about rejection. First, she still has not filed for divorce.This means she still cares about your feelings. She is giving you time, but if you don't give her something in return, she will file. 

As I stated before I think the house issue could be used as a great bargaining tool. Any other big issues could also be used to your advantage to see her, talk to her and touch her. 

SHe is also angry at you. You do realize that? You (in her eyes). you neglected her. Remember those moments when you touched the small of her back, held her hand, nibbled her ear? Those things bring back romantic moments. I wouldn't suggest nibbling her ear right away but slight suttle touches can renew old feelings. She needs to feel that you do care and she needs to feel a romantic connection with you. This is the best way to weedle into the OM territory. 

You have changed, but you need to show her. DOn't write it down, just be confident and keep in mind, you are a new person and realize things that you were lacking in your marraige and want to reconnect. Keep doing the great job you are doing, and don't forget yourself


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## jar

I know I can’t control her or make her want this marriage. I really do understand that. 

The part I am struggling with is being ok with letting her go. I am also in denial about her not loving me any longer and wanting out of this marriage. I am having a hard time believing it. I hear the words but do not believe them. I guess I haven’t come to full terms with realty yet. I feel like she is pushing me a way and built a wall around her because it is easier than coping with the emotions and the hurt that is there.

I do have an open mind at this point to anything that comes my way. I really do. I am much happier than I have been and am feeling more like myself these days.

JAR


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## land2634

jar said:


> I know I can’t control her or make her want this marriage. I really do understand that.
> 
> The part I am struggling with is being ok with letting her go. I am also in denial about her not loving me any longer and wanting out of this marriage. I am having a hard time believing it. I hear the words but do not believe them. I guess I haven’t come to full terms with realty yet. I feel like she is pushing me a way and built a wall around her because it is easier than coping with the emotions and the hurt that is there.
> 
> I do have an open mind at this point to anything that comes my way. I really do. I am much happier than I have been and am feeling more like myself these days.
> 
> JAR


I'm feeling these exact emotions right now. The only thing I can say is to prepare for what you know may happen, but if you aren't ready to give up, then by all means don't give up. I'm sure you, like myself, have people surrounding you telling you that you should just move on and let her go. If that isn't what you want, then don't do it!

This doesn't mean your every action has to be based around getting her back, but I would say that you want to make sure your actions aren't love extinguishers. You're going to gain respect from a lot of people, including myself, for having held onto the vows you took as long as you possibly could, no matter what the outcome may be. There is something to be said for truly doing your best to honor those vows.


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## jar

More affair dizziness today

I forwarded an email my brother sent me. It was a big company wide announcement. He got a huge promotion today. I am so happy for him…So I forwarded the email to my wife. Her response was I am happy for him don’t send me these emails.

They have been like brother and sister fro 10 years now. My brother quit his job went back to school graduated took a job that he was over qualified for and now just landed his dream job. He changed his whole life and we were both there and supported him through it all.

I guess she wants to forget she has another family who still love her.

Affair Dizziness and Guilt I guess

It’s not bothering me to much.
JAR


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## land2634

I've noticed that they want to forget anyone and everyone who might know what is really going on. For those of us that know the truth, it looks silly and petty, but somehow they justify it to themselves.


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## turnera

Yep. It's why they have to start up a whole new life of new friends who won't despise them.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

For awhile, my H wouldn't even make eye contact with our neighbors. People we had vacationed/camped with on several occasions. Guilt, denial, more guilt, more denial......


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## jessi

jar, 

I'm sorry you are having a tough time accepting your wife's decisions.....that is pretty normal I think, I remember thinking the same thing at first, disbelief of what I had understood to be true for so long wasn't what he believed......it really is like a death we go through, death of a relationship as we have known it.....
It's normal for your wife to sort of disown any part of her life with you and your friends or family.....it's easier for her......
Some day she will see just what a selfish act she is being part of....I pray she will be able to live with herself......
You deserve more than she is giving you, I know you love her with everything in you but she has to be willing to respect your needs as well.......right now she doesn't seem willing but that doesn't mean she won't some day in the future, until then you need to start taking care of yourself and enjoying life a little....there are so many people out there just like all of us that have been given a raw deal in life, just looking for someone to share a few laughs with.......if you still think your marriage is worth saving after some time apart and after the two of you have moved on from each other than that is good and worth the effort.. If it doesn't work out, you will know in your heart that you tried everything you could and that is all you can do.......the rest is up to her and the good lord.......
hang in there, I know some days are tougher than others.....


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah, its the guilt.


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## Affaircare

Jar~

I have been thinking and thinking about your situation, and I have a few ideas that are kind of .. well, OUT THERE because why not consider every option, even the weird ones?

At this time neither you nor your wife have filed for divorce, right, so she keeps wanting you to mediate and there is nothing to mediate yet! As an example look at my thread about "What to do if the Disloyal Files Divorce" and you'll see there are five steps to a divorce...and step #4 is Divorce Mediation. That would be AFTER divorce is filed and after there is Discovery, which means legally listing all the assets and things that need to be divided. At this point, if you did go to mediation, you could "agree" to something not knowing all the assets! So she's sort of saying, "I want to have my affair and I want you to make it easier for me to be unfaithful by being agreeable and working with me." That's silly. 

Right now she's stressing about the house, about the dog and about the fish tank...and she's pushing for "mediation." So far you've been sort of going back and forth about these topics and it's resulted in stalemates. What if you thought outside the box?

#1 "The house" -- You have said in your other posts that you are all for moving and selling the home and finding new jobs. (Quote: I love our house but dislike our community. It is a love hate thing it is tough to explain.) So rather than saying, "I am willing to sell the house for the divorce" or "I'm not selling period" what if you said to her that you'd be happy to sell the house and move to a home and community you both love? Before that, do the legwork and do some pricing for your current home (what are homes in your community selling for? how long do the sales take?), and do some pricing for YOUR DREAM HOME AND CITY!! Ask some friends for referrals to a realtor they recommend, interview a few of them, tell them what you're intending to do (and why a little), and build a relationship with someone in real estate. Build a relationship with a banker too!

It might be a real eye-opener to your wife, because she says she feels like she deals with all the financial stuff and here you are getting selling prices, loans and solutions from the bank, researching the market and your dream area, etc. In other words, you are taking the financial bull by the horns! To continue to just say, "I'm not willing to sell" but also put her in a bind and not face the financial implications isn't cool and is part of the growing you're doing as a human...so get proactive and give your wife a proposal! 

Also, what if you moved back home? As you mentioned it is your home and your name is on the deed and you are making the payments. Soooo...if it's uncomfy for her to continue her affair, so what? Do you have a lease? What would be the legal implications of giving your notice? Could you sublease it to someone and move back home? Can you have HER sublease? All I'm saying here is be creative. There's more than one way to skin a cat and there's more than one way to deal with the house. I'm suggesting you rise to the challenge and give her proposals/options that also are in line with YOUR goals of saving the marriage and reconciling. 

#2 "The dog" -- This may not be a very popular suggestion, and yep it may cause you some pain, but as I understand it your landlord hasn't given you permission to keep a dog yet, and it's been a while since you moved in. What if you offered the dog to your wife? My reasoning for this suggestion is that a) it would give her a companion and be an offer that might mean something to her, b) it may be in the best interest of the dog to be in it's own home, c) it may be something could be a love kindler, putting her desire for a pet she loves ahead of your own. Of course, if you move back home this fight is moot.

#3 "The Fish Tank" -- okay I realize that fish tanks are huge and quite an ordeal to move, especially a big, specialty one, but frankly this is your responsibility and you're leaving her with it. I personally say either make moves immediately to get this taken care of, or apologize to her for not being personally responsible as I suspect this is probably a daily love extinquisher. You want to demonstrate that you are taking care of business and facing things that she thinks you avoided before. So "GET 'ER DONE' and if need be, include her in the plans so she knows you are moving on this every single day! Of course, if you move back home this fight is moot too.

#4 "Mediation" -- Up to this point I think you (and her) kind of looked at mediation inaccurately, and you've been sort of telling her that you don't want to do mediation because it's hard to deal with, for emotional reasons, etc. Well to some degree that's not true. I mean it IS hard to deal with, but when she first suggested it, you had NO IDEA what the process is or how this works or anything...and now you do. So I suggest that you arrange to sit down and meet with her if you think you can trust yourself to shoot out extinguishers, and explain to her that you do not want to be spiteful or have a War of the Roses kind of divorce, but that now that you have some facts and have your feet under you, you realize that no legal paperwork has been filed yet and frankly you hope that none is filed. Let her know you're willing to wait and intend to honor your marriage vows while she goes through this time, and tell her that you would love to go to mediation to see if you two can work out your issues...BUT that you have found a mediator D Guess Who!) who would be focusing more on working out your differences not on splitting your assets. Then YOU push HER to come to mediation, and within some reason use some of the exact "tricks" she's used on you! 

Okay these are just ideas, and although some are a little radical they may head in a good direction. What do you think?


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## jar

affaircare

We are on a very similar page right now. I have many of the same thoughts and I am drafting an email to send to her and the mediator. With much of what you have suggested is on my mind right now. 

Mediation is Thursday and I won’t go back until we are further down the road. But I need to get this email drafted and out that I will not be attending.

Thank you Affaircare
JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

You are confident and emotionally strong. Stay positive.


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## jar

Affaircare everything you wrote I have been thinking about a lot. 

I am going to call my wife tonight. A call is much more personal than a cold email. Thanks Tamara for reminding of some things…I am going to call just to talk and bring up much of what you suggested. I am expecting to be met with hostility but at least she will get to hear my voice and hopefully be able to have a conversation with me.

I am really nervous. But this call needs to go well with no love busters. I am going to try my best and hope for the best. 

I am down in the dumps for some reason today. I feel like there is almost no hope left for our marriage. I feel like the window of opportunity is just about closed and locked. I feel like we missed so many opportunities to change things for the better. I also feel like such a jerk for my part of the failed marriage. All the love busters….All the times my wife made me feel loved and met my needs and I didn’t reciprocate. I never realized how different our needs were until this past week. We are on such a different wave length when it comes to our personalities and what we think is important. It is true when they say we generally express love in the way we like to be loved. Such an innocent mistake. It is interesting the best intensions can have such a different meaning and feeling to the other person. I see that now. It all hit me like a ton of bricks last night. I feel loved when she shows me affection and she feels loved when she receives quality time and acts of service. Therefore she was always doing just about everything around the house and I was always the more cuddly affectionate one. I would resent it when she would ask for my help because it always felt like a marching order to me. When she would ask for my time it always felt like she was nagging and taking me away from something I would rather be doing. I never relized how much these things ment to her. Seems so simple and obvious. I just had no idea. Image how things could have been different if we were meeting one another needs all along. She has such a strong wall up now and I don’t know if I can break it down.

Depressing thought and it is really stuck in my mind.

Wish me luck hopefully things go better than I am expecting.

JAR


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

wishing you "good luck" with your call...

Please think about these things:
1) Maybe write a cheat sheet to help you remember what you want to say
2) If things start to go south, try to end the call on a high note and tell her you'd like to call again in a few days
3) You have many opportunities to end the marraige, but right now is possibly your last to SAVE it. Can you translate that into your own words?

Let us know how it goes.


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## jessi

good luck jar, I hear you when you say if we had only caught on early what we should have done in the marriage.....I think the same way......it all seems like such a shame, to feel all this pain for something we could have easily paid more attention to......
hoping you get a second chance.....


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## turnera

I can so relate. My H always gives me perfume or jewelry, stuff like that, which I couldn't care less about. I would give him tools to make his life easier, which he hated. The best gift I ever gave him was a weekend at a bed and breakfast on a yacht. He gave me a B&B gift once, and I just wanted to get it over with so I could go home and work on the house. If I ever ask him to do something, he just looks at me and walks away; and either watches tv, takes a nap, or goes and works on something HE wants to work on.

For our 30-year anniversary in April, Mother's Day, and my birthday in June, I asked *specifically *for him to help me do things for the house. I even wrote out a list and said he could choose from the list. He promised he would. He did one thing - reorganized the kitchen pantry. And quit. And bought me more jewelry. You have no idea how badly my feelings have been hurt by that; that I just don't matter enough for him to hear me, or care if I get what I need. If I wasn't so badly in debt, I would leave him and never look back, and I doubt that he will ever be able to do anything to make up for it, for 30 years of stuffing my feelings.

I doubt your marriage is in that much trouble, though. But I hope it helps you to see what it feels like.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,

The outline thing is a great idea. Keep calm keep on point . If you have an opportunity to firm say you love her, say it. If it will come out needy. Surround with complements. "Don't you see what makes you so attracticve? You're smart. talented, charming and beautiful. All of which keep me in love with you. And why I won't give up trying to make this work."


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## jar

Well that went as expected not good what so ever. I guess a bunch of affair dizziness. She hung up on me twice. I didn’t yell or say too many extinguishers or maybe I did.

Well I texted asked for a good time to call. She had to make sure I new she was busy tonight going out with friends and she didn’t have much time. But she agreed that if I called now that it would be a good time to talk.

I explained that I felt guilty about taking the dog away from my wife and her home. She went off on me that she was stuck taking care of her all by her self and that I was just trying to duct out of my responsibilities. Our last mediation session she made a federal case about me taking the dog away from her. She then said I could take her this weekend because she was really busy and had a lot going on. I told her I could probably do that but would have to check my schedule. Wonder what she has going on...Maybe hanging out with friends…Maybe her family is coming…Maybe the OM

I explained that I was at a point where I was ready to sell our home. But I told her it was in a different way than she was thinking. I told her I would sell tomorrow but would like to figure out a new place we could move and live together. I explained I would even be willing to quite my job and find a new one and start are marriage over. She said what we have isn’t a marriage and I have to realize I have issues that I need to address…She was really balling and getting really hysterical and said I will just see you at mediation. I then told her that I would not be at mediation tomorrow…I told her that i was at a point where we could sell our house and reconcile our differences. I told her our mediator couldn’t help us as a couple and that I had two people lined up that could help us work through our differences as a couple. She hung up on me at that point. 

I texted asked her to please let me tell her a few more things she didn’t have to say anything and asked her to just listen. 

She agreed and our phone call continued. This time I told her about my phone call with Dr Harley and I talked about my conversation with him and about the different books I have read. I told her I realized how different we were and that I know see it. I told her I finally see how hurt and unloved and lonely she had been feeling all of this time. I told her it hit me like a ton a bricks that I virtually did nothing to make her feel loved. I apologized and said how sorry I was. She her response was I don’t want here that. It is way too late for apologies. I want out so I can move on in my life. I explained I realized and could sympathize with the way she feels.

Then she went really hysterical on me and hung up….This is all I can remember of the conversation.

She said I had her trapped and living in a place she hated…..She said now I was running away from my responsibilities of taking care of the dog part of the time….I explained I could see how she would think that but it wasn’t true. I explained I felt guilty taking her out of her home and away from you. I told her it wasn’t my intention to make her feel trapped in our home and that I am sorry she felt that way. She said I was running away from my responsibilities….Now this comment is real interesting…..I would rather be miserable with you living here because at least you would be doing your part to take care of things. So I said what if I were to move home then….She paused and said then what….this part is a bit fuzzy in my find she was really ranting but she said something to the effect of…then if you move back I can take over all the house payments on my own and also pay for our boat etc…. and now your not willing to mediate with me…I am just running away from my responsibilities. Now what layers?...You talk about selling our house and moving on together but I am not doing what is best for us…and what is best is for us to sell our house…I will have my lawyer serve you with divorce papers…Then what you still wont let me sell our house…I finally said where is my incentive I am willing to sell and move on as a couple and you are asking me to sell and divorce…I said I don’t want a war here…She said it is going to get really ugly if layers get involved and really expensive etc….If layers get involved that’s not what’s best for us and I am not willing to give her what she wants and that is mediation and selling of our house. I replied I am sorry you feel I am holding you back and you should do what is best for you at this point. I told her that is what I was doing. I am figuring things out for my self and healing on my own.

So at this point I highly doubt she has a layer….If I know my wife at all she doesn’t. So it seems in one statement she is saying she wants a divorce but in another she is still thinking as us as a couple…I guess her comments were kind of dizzy but I see 

Pros:
Still Thinking about me
She is still thinking about what is best for us
She seems a bit unsure of divorce it seems more of a threat when she gets worked up

Cons
I am running from my responsibilities…House…Dog…Financial…
I am not meeting her needs
I am a monster….bad guy…insert any number of four letter words here______
I am holding her back from happiness
I have issues
I have her trapped
I am not making her happy

I didn’t mention affair what so ever. So is the affair going on. I got to assume yes. While we were on the phone her sis called so it seems her family is checking in with her. Seems she is going out with coworkers in her spare time…So is the OM going with them. Is the affair public and the coworkers excepting of it…I really hope that is not the case I know many of these people…I imagine the group she is hanging out with is primarily the younger single guys….All are pretty dorky scientist types and fairly harmless. So I wonder what the deal is with the affair at this point

One thing is true she is stressed…I assume the affair is as well…

So now what…I had good intentions when I called but everything I said I think was taken out of context and made negative…I think she shut down pretty quick and I highly doubt she heard anything I had to say let alone understood where I was coming from.

So do I email her the cliff notes….

Next weekend is fish tank weekend so face to face interaction that I can make positive. Aug 19 is our anniversary another opportunity for some good love kindlers.

I am sure I am really being made out to be the bad guy and she is filling her family head with false things. I saw this with my cousin who is having an affair. I saw first hand how hurt and confused they were because of their daughters actions. I was thinking of sending a nice note to her parents and sister explaining that I still want to be in there lives. I also have ordered a few copies of not just friends. I thought maybe they could read it so they could understand what we are going through. I also ordered his needs her needs It is a great book and I thought I would send them a copy as well. Hopefully it will help strengthen there marriage.

I am doing ok…Not to emotional about what I expected…

Thanks everyone
JAR


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## jar

Here is a few things I have learned about me and my wife since Harley gave me my assignment. The stuff about my wife is my interpretation of things based on what I know about her and what she has told me in therapy. So it could be way off.

JAR ENTJ
Extraverted iNtuitive Thinking Judging

General Description:
ENTJs have a natural tendency to marshall and direct. This may be expressed with the charm and finesse of a world leader or with the insensitivity of a cult leader. The ENTJ requires little encouragement to make a plan. One ENTJ put it this way... "I make these little plans that really don't have any importance to anyone else, and then feel compelled to carry them out." ENTJs as a group, plan creatively and to make those plans reality. 
ENTJs are often "larger than life" in describing their projects or proposals. 

ENTJs are decisive. They see what needs to be done, and frequently assign roles to their fellows. Few other types can equal their ability to remain resolute in conflict, sending the valiant (and often leading the charge) into the mouth of hell. When challenged, the ENTJ may by reflex become argumentative. Alternatively (s)he may unleash an icy gaze that serves notice: the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with. 

Extraverted Thinking:
"Unequivocating" expresses the resoluteness of the ENTJ's dominant function. Clarity of convictions endows these Thinkers with a knack for debate, or wanting knack, a penchant for argument. The light and heat generated by Thinking at the helm can be impressive; perhaps even overwhelming. Experience teaches many ENTJs that restraint may often be the better part of valor, lest one find oneself victorious but alone. 

Introverted iNtuition:
The auxiliary function explores the blueprints of archetypal patterns and equips Thinking with a fresh, dynamic sense of how things work. Improvising on the fly is something many ENTJs do very well. As Thinking's subordinate, insights are of value only insofar as they further the Right, True Cause celebre. [n.b.: ENTJs are capable of living on a higher plane, if you will, and learning to value individuals even above their principles. The above dynamic suggests less individuation.] 

Extraverted Sensing:
Sensing reaches out to embrace that which physically touches it. ENTJs have an awareness of the real; of that which exists. By stilling the engines of Thinking and iNtuition, this type may experience the Here and Now, and know things not dreamt of nor even postulated in iNtuition's philosophy. Sensing's minor role, however, puts it at risk for distortion or extreme weakness beneath the hustle and bustle of the giants N and T. 

Introverted Feeling:
When overdone or taken too seriously, Fi turned outward often becomes maudlin or melodramatic. Feeling in this type appears most authentic when implied or expressed covertly in a firm handshake, accepting demeanor, or act of sacrifice thinly covered by excuses of lack of any personal interest in the relinquished item.




Wife ISFJ
Introverted Sensing Feeling Judging

General Description:
ISFJs are characterized above all by their desire to serve others, their "need to be needed." In extreme cases, this need is so strong that standard give-and-take relationships are deeply unsatisfying to them; however, most ISFJs find more than enough with which to occupy themselves within the framework of a normal life. (Since ISFJs, like all SJs, are very much bound by the prevailing social conventions, their form of "service" is likely to exclude any elements of moral or political controversy; they specialize in the local, the personal, and the practical.) 

ISFJs are often unappreciated, at work, home, and play. Ironically, because they prove over and over that they can be relied on for their loyalty and unstinting, high-quality work, those around them often take them for granted--even take advantage of them. Admittedly, the problem is sometimes aggravated by the ISFJs themselves; for instance, they are notoriously bad at delegating ("If you want it done right, do it yourself"). And although they're hurt by being treated like doormats, they are often unwilling to toot their own horns about their accomplishments because they feel that although they deserve more credit than they're getting, it's somehow wrong to want any sort of reward for doing work (which is supposed to be a virtue in itself). (And as low-profile Is, their actions don't call attention to themselves as with charismatic Es.) Because of all of this, ISFJs are often overworked, and as a result may suffer from psychosomatic illnesses.

In the workplace, ISFJs are methodical and accurate workers, often with very good memories and unexpected analytic abilities; they are also good with people in small-group or one-on-one situations because of their patient and genuinely sympathetic approach to dealing with others. ISFJs make pleasant and reliable co-workers and exemplary employees, but tend to be harried and uncomfortable in supervisory roles. They are capable of forming strong loyalties, but these are personal rather than institutional loyalties; if someone they've bonded with in this way leaves the company, the ISFJ will leave with them, if given the option. Traditional careers for an ISFJ include: teaching, social work, most religious work, nursing, medicine (general practice only), clerical and and secretarial work of any kind, and some kinds of administrative careers. 
While their work ethic is high on the ISFJ priority list, their families are the centers of their lives. ISFJs are extremely warm and demonstrative within the family circle--and often possessive of their loved ones, as well. When these include Es who want to socialize with the rest of the world, or self-contained ITs, the ISFJ must learn to adjust to these behaviors and not interpret them as rejection. Being SJs, they place a strong emphasis on conventional behavior (although, unlike STJs, they are usually as concerned with being "nice" as with strict propriety); if any of their nearest and dearest depart from the straight-and-narrow, it causes the ISFJ major embarrassment: the closer the relationship and the more public the act, the more intense the embarrassment (a fact which many of their teenage children take gleeful advantage of). Over time, however, ISFJs usually mellow, and learn to regard the culprits as harmless eccentrics . Needless to say, ISFJs take infinite trouble over meals, gifts, celebrations, etc., for their loved ones--although strong Js may tend to focus more on what the recipient should want rather than what they do want. 

Like most Is, ISFJs have a few, close friends. They are extremely loyal to these, and are ready to provide emotional and practical support at a moment's notice. (However, like most Fs they hate confrontation; if you get into a fight, don't expect them to jump in after you. You can count on them, however, run and get the nearest authority figure.) Unlike with EPs, the older the friendship is, the more an ISFJ will value it. One ISFJ trait that is easily misunderstood by those who haven't known them long is that they are often unable to either hide or articulate any distress they may be feeling. For instance, an ISFJ child may be reproved for "sulking," the actual cause of which is a combination of physical illness plus misguided "good manners." An adult ISFJ may drive a (later ashamed) friend or SO into a fit of temper over the ISFJ's unexplained moodiness, only afterwards to explain about a death in the family they "didn't want to burden anyone with." Those close to ISFJs should learn to watch for the warning signs in these situations and take the initiative themselves to uncover the problem. 

Introverted Sensing:
As for ISTJs, the dominant Si is oriented toward the world of forms, essences, generics. Again, "for both of the IS_J types, the sense of propriety comes from the clear definition of these internal forms. ... A 'proper' chair has four legs," etc. (Jung saw IS as something of an oxymoron: sensing, which is a perceiving function, focused inward and thus away from that which is perceived (the "object"). In this light, he described this sensing as something removed from reality, full of archetypes/mythical figures/hobgoblins; sensing of one's own set of forms.) 

Extraverted Feeling:
A kind of "regression toward the mean" provided by the Fe auxiliary function serves to socialize the expression of these forms. I suppose it's the auxiliary nature of this Feeling, coupled with the balancing effect of {detachment from the internal idiosyncratic view of free-floating data perceptions} that makes ISFJs tentative, conservative, and reticent to boldly state the rights and wrongs in the relational world. (Loosely translated, ISFJs like to keep their perceptions to themselves, and aren't sure enough that what they "see" as Introverted Sensors has any relevance to the outside world. Thus the perception, based on unworldly data, may not be true. The obedient Extraverted Feeling function must therefore refrain from strong statements expressing these opinions.) 

Introverted Thinking:
Introverted Thinking is turned inward and is largely invisible. It is only with great difficulty, if at all, that the ISFJ could willingly commit anyone to their doom. Perhaps this explains why ISFJs are loyal to the end; there is no sense of purely objective (i.e., impersonal) judgement of anyone but themselves (and that only by their own standards). Here is this type's achilles heel that makes many of them so vulnerable to 

Extraverted iNtuition:
ISFJs are easily undone by Extraverted iNtuition, their inferior function. Believing in the fantastic, and disbelieving the technologically extant, are errors that my guide the gullible (or unfoundedly sceptical) ISFJ off a precipice of mis-conclusion. (One of our co-workers' mothers adamantly refused to believe that Dave Letterman's mom was actually at the olympics in Norway talking with the athletes and handing out hams! She suspected technological trickery.) This childlike Ne is, however, the likely source (coupled with fun-loving Extraverted Feeling) of the practical joking, punning and (usually harmless) impishness of some ISFJs. 



Primary Love Language

Jar	
Physical Touch
Words of Affirmation	

Wife
Quality Time
Acts of Service

Emotional Needs

JAR:
Affection
Admiration
Sexual Fulfillment
Honesty Openness
Attractive Spouse
Recreational Companionship

Wife:
Conversation
Domestic Support
Honesty Openness
Affection
Recreational Companionship 
Financial Support


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## Affaircare

JAR~

As we discussed I'm going to answer a little generally out here on the forum because what you may not realize is that often people will lurk, read other people's threads, and try to apply it to their own situation! So for those folks and for you, let's keep this thread more about concepts than specifics to your situation. 

Overall I want to say that I am VERY impressed with this leap you've made recently in understanding. I am not sure why, but I've seen it happen time and again in many marriages: before this lightbulb turns on, you just don't see it...there just is no awareness of the problem. "Problem? We have no problem! It's all good." Then something connects, the lightbulb goes on and THERE IT IS! "OMG how could I not have seen that? It's so obvious!" 

I can tell just by the way that you post that you "get it" and can see over the years the damage that was done unintentionally. And not saying that the burden is all on you--I have no doubt she also unintentionally began to do love kindlers less and less, and love extingquishers more and more. But this is EXACTLY what we are talking about when Tanelorn and I say that an affair doesn't occur in a vacuum. It's not about "blame" but more like taking responsibility for the things you did on your side of the street that contributed to the situation of your marriage being vulnerable. 

So...you see it. She has had enough resentment built up in her for years that she has not only closed the door, she locked it, chained it shut, poured cement, and then put up a wall too. Jar, her resentment did not build in a day, a week or even a month, It took a while to get there. Plus she's adding to it and magnifying it by rewriting history to make you "the bad guy" and justify her adultery. Her spirit is CLOSED! Our job now is going to be one thing: to be strong enough to open it--and I say the word "strong" because what I would suggest of you is going to be hard and require a TON of character. I will also mention that there are disloyals who really do close their spirit and there is just nothing you can do...it's over, their heart is hardened, and they have determined in their heart to no longer honor their vow. You can't tell if that's the case with your wife or not, so for now, let's assume that she MIGHT open okay? If you do everything you can, even if you do eventually wind up divorced, you will have peace that you did all you could to save your marriage. 

I would suggest that now is a great time to really stay consistent on Plan A/Carrot & Stick. If you look over even what you've written the last couple of days there are plenty of specific actions and attitudes identified that I believe even you recognize as Love Extinguishers. Before you can kindle any kind of love again, you have to specifically stop the Love Extinguishers. So I see you saying that she NEEDED time with you and you took it as nagging...or she NEEDED your help and you took it as trying to order you around. Those are identifiable Love Extinguishers, in that you wouldn't want to do things to enable the affair, but you do want to specifically work on YOU to change those attitudes and learn to give sacrificially to your wife. Sooooo...how what are you willing to do to change YOU? What I mean is that now you know it's a problem--how you gonna change? Thinking about it and figuring it out is one thing...actually DOING something and CHANGING is a completely different thing!

I encourage you to actually get to work now. Actually face yourself and go beyond that to figuring out what to do differently and coming up with a plan how to practice the new thing. How you gonna apply it? Be realistic and give it a try--do something in a new way! You're in Plan A/Carrot & Stick and choosing to not go to pre-divorce asset-separating mediation is a fine decision because you don't talk divorce--you talk reconciliation. But if you don't go to mediation what are you going to DO? Just ignore it? It won't go away. See what I mean? How will you address the assets, the bills, the responsibilities so that you are doing something different, meeting her needs and considering her personality type...but not necessarily enabling the affair?


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## quirky_girl

You did the right thing. She has made her choice. She cannot be trusted. She wants to leave you for this other man but is to chicken to get a divorce. You will have to initiate the divorce and get over her. She is toxic and will only keep dragging you along.


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## patientone

Your situation is eerily similar to mine..I read your entire thread in the past two days. Overall, sounds like you are doing well and like me, have realized your mistakes. I understand wanting to be married to your wife as you will surely be a better husband.

Keep hope alive. Pray. Join some support group perhaps in your area (I have started Divorce Care). Saves you from venting to all your friends all the time 

Give your wife some emotional space.....don't be needy. Work on yourself. Take care of yourself. That is what I have learned. Also, the most important thing that for me, is the hardest. No matter what we do, we cannot change our wives. BUT, we can try our best with the tools we have and HOPE that they see the changes and have a change of heart. 

I, personally, dream of that day. I hope. I will cry..lots of happy tears. Keep trying to do what you can and never stop learning - no matter what happens, this situation has made me a better person (husband, man and father). I can only hope my wife joins me. Keep your chin up...I'll be checking your thread.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Other than cursing you, did she say what you needed to change or needed to do. Are you willing to move back in with her? Is you landlord willing to let you have the dog?
You did great. She is emotional. That is a good sign.
I am so glad you got talk with her. That email thing just doesn't work. It is just exchanging information it is not personal communication.
Can you ask her to help you? Do you think you could ask her for some suggestions? Of course she might always tell you what you can do with yourself. But that is expected.


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## turnera

I would definitely be continuing to talk to her family and friends. They need to see the real you; not the picture she's painting.

Move back home.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I'd let the conversation sit in her mind for a couple of days, and then tell her you are planning to move home. Her wall is too strong/high for you to make much decent progress without being under the same roof.


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## turnera

I agree.


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## jar

So I see what you are saying about recognizing the issues and now figuring out how to do things so that I am doing more love kindlers.

I can see the 1000 mile view of having a bit of different mind set and training my self to do things for my wife that kindle love. I see her doing the same for me and us having a great marriage and relationship. 

Now the near term view of things. Selling our house has me torn in knots. Here is why. First off our house is nice and we have a lot of blood sweat and tears in fixing it up the way we want. So for me it is accomplishment to own a home and have something we can say is ours. When we picked out the house we both fell in love with it and it was very mutual decision to purchase it. It was the same with all our home improvement project. Very much a mutual decision. Now my wife says she hates it.

The sale of our home looks bleak. Homes are hardly selling and the ones that do sell are foreclosures or priced near foreclosure price. So the worst case after closing and broker fees we would still owe about 40k on the house. Now renting is dicey. Most of the industries that were in town have left over the years. The community consists of mostly senior citizens. I talked to a person that does rental properties and he says we could rent no problem for about half of what our mortgage is per month. So renting our house is not a great option. Our realtor says this is the worst she has seen things in over 30 years and to hold if we can.

Let’s say we sell the house and we divorce and split the house in half. We could pay the debt using investment 401K money. So by the time you do that the debt looks more like 30K each with all the penalties and taxes. So then your left with an empty 401k account no house and down payment for another house. 

Another scenario is we split the debt and just continue paying the debt down on a monthly bases. 20K 5 year loan about 300 a month give or take. So with rent a car payment 20k debt and living expenses this leaves very little to get by on but doable. So now lets say you go and try to buy another home to live in and you still have that debt our debt to net worth is high and two things will happen either no loan or a loan so low it leaves almost no housing options. My brother is going through this right now. 

Now lets add in the complication of my wife may or may not be laid off. All of the above options are just a difficult as if we still had the house and she were to loose her job. Still all the same problems in life.

So now look at it as if we were to stay together and we carried this debt all of the same rules above apply. We would be a bit less tied down because there would be no house. Maybe we move find a new place to buy either case in all the scenarios listed about we are going to end up in another house that is less than what we have and probably be even more of a fixer upper etc. My wife hates fixing up things.

So my outlook is lets figure out a nice community that we would like to live in. Put the house on the market. Update the résumés and find our dream jobs in said community. Hopefully the house sale follows suit. Maybe the new job would pay for moving and handle the house sale. Not uncommon.

I guess lastly I like being a home owner. I it is rewarding for me and I get a huge sense of worth and accomplishment. So while it would be a big love kindler to agree to my wife’s terms it would be a huge huge love extinguisher for me. Now do I give in because it would help with the marriage but how much more can I take I am already dealing with the pain and suffering from an affair now I have to give up my home and not be able to replace it with something equivalent for a number of years.

See my dilemma. I am having a hard time seeing the win win scenario. I am sure some people see my dilemma as not being that bad. I see that we could have it way worse.

JAR


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## jar

Letter to wife and mediator


Hi XXXX

I am doing much better since our last mediation session. However I will not be at mediation today. I am not ready to talk about the sale of our home. If I were to go to mediation today I can see two scenarios happening. The first scenario is I will end up agreeing to something I am not comfortable with. If I walk out of there feeling that way again I know myself well enough to say I am going to end up becoming a ruthless nightmare to deal with and I don’t want that to happen. The other scenario I can see happening from today’s meeting is complete grid lock. With no out come but more hurt feelings. From the research I have done I do not see selling our home as the best decision for us financially as a couple or as individuals. The result in ether situation is a huge debt that will have to paid. This debt will make purchasing another home in the future difficult. It will also be an additional burden to us both as individuals. I realize there may be no win win outcome here but I am still searching for another option. At a minimum I would like to think I will reach a point that I will be at ease with the scenario. I am just not there yet.

I talked to wife last night and it did not go well. I explained that the only scenario I am comfortable with at this point is reconciliation and selling our home together. I am at a point where I would be comfortable selling our home tomorrow if this were to happen. I would love to work together and find a community to live in that meets our needs, sell our home, find new jobs, and most importantly completely reinvent our marriage. I want for us a marriage that we both enjoy being a part of and a marriage that meets our emotional needs. I have even found two new therapists/coaches that specialize in the sorts of problems we are dealing with and both are willing to work with us. Even after all of the drama of the past few months I still have a lot of love left in my heart for her. I still find her to be a sweet, caring, talented, charming, beautiful, strong, compassionate, and amazing woman. All of which keep me in love with her. 

I am behind scheduled with the terms that we agreed to in our last session. My new fish tank was chipped while they were packing it up for shipping. The tank will not be delivered until next week therefore I will not be able to deal with my existing tank at home unit the 14th.

Last night I explained to wife that I did not receive final approval from my land lord to have Annabelle come stay until the other night. It took them some time and some convincing before they were comfortable with having her around the house. However what I tried to explain to Wife last night was I am having second thoughts about having her come to my place. I am feeling really guilty about taking Annabelle away from my wife and away from her home in Claremont. I love her to death and miss her dearly but I am feeling very guilty about the situation. Wife saw this as me trying to weasel out of my responsibilities.

During our phone conversation last night wife kept saying that I am not willing to mediate. I explained that I am not looking to make war with her. I wanted to let you know that I have never once said that I am unwilling to mediate with her. During our sessions I have simply stated my boundaries in the form of what I am willing and not willing to do at this point and asked for more time so that I may work on myself and heal from some of the traumatic events that we have been through during the past several months. Wife has had month’s maybe even years to be ready to take the next steps and I have been asked to deal with things in a matter of weeks. I think that it is only fair that I get some time to do the same. I was hoping you could better explain this to her so she realizes I am very much open to continuing meditation or counseling.

Last night wife also explained to me that I am not doing what is best for us at this point. She feels the best thing to do is sell our home. She also explained how up set she was at me because she feels trapped in a home she hates with no help or support from me. She feels that I have just run away from my responsibilities and my problems. I just wanted to let you know I heard every word she said to me and I can sympathize with how she feels. It has not been my intention to trap her in our life she hates. I realize I left a lot of the burden of our life on her shoulders. Can you please ask her for a few suggestions of things that I could do to help her out. Such things like mowing the lawn etc…

Before she hung up on me I told her she should do what is best for her at this point as I am trying to do the same.

Best regards
JAR


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## Tanelornpete

> During our phone conversation last night wife kept saying that I am not willing to mediate. I explained that I am not looking to make war with her. I wanted to let you know that I have never once said that I am unwilling to mediate with her.


I have not been an active participant in this thread, but I've kept up with at least some of it. I just wanted to point out that your wife's desire to 'mediate' isn't realistic, nor is it necessary. There has been no divorce filed. When papers are filed, a judge will request the type of mediation she is begging for. If that ever happens - _then_ is the time for mediation.

In other words, _she is the one refusing mediation, not you!_ The _only_ applicable mediation until a divorce is in progress is the type in which a neutral party attempts to create channels of communication between spouses. People simply don't hire mediators to divide possessions for which they are both responsible - until the partnership no longer exists, at which time things must be divided.


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## jar

Mediator just called she really wanted me to come today. I told her that I just can’t as I am not ready for this yet. She asked me to show up out of good faith and it shows I want to continue this process. I explained I had showed up twice already out of good faith. I said I am just asking for time. I also explained my view of things which she sympathized with. She said very nicely that my wife seems very serious with her decision and that she does not detect any change in her mind as to move forward with things. I said if that is what she need to do then she should do it. I explained I am very willing to mediate with her at another time. The mediator explained that she fully expected my wife to file after today’s cancelation. I think she was trying to scary me with attorneys. She was trying to paint this picture of how much worst it will be going this route and how much more painful. I said either route is a loose loose situation for me.

Maybe I should just sell the house to get everyone off my back and to make the wife happy.


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## Tanelornpete

> The mediator explained that she fully expected my wife to file after today’s cancelation.


What would be the POINT of mediation if divorce wasn't in the picture? Gonna divide the things up and then continue to be married? That is irrelevant and irrational. 



> She was trying to paint this picture of how much worst it will be going this route and how much more painful.


Would have been useful to ask her exactly which judge would think a spouse trying to save a marriage is less honorable than one trying to destroy it.

You were right to refuse to succumb to any form of extortion.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,
I am very impressed with your efforts over the last couple days. It seems you really have a good grip on things. You have put in quite the effort.


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## Affaircare

Jar~

#1--I am EXTREMELY unimpressed with a mediator who would try to pressure you into doing something you have respectfully and reasonably indicated you do not want to do. To my mind that does NOT indicate impartiality at all. If I were in your shoes, I would be concerned, as the primary duty of ANY mediator is to address the issues of both parties in an unbiased, open-minded way. I do not see that happening with this mediator; thus you are dead on the money to not progress further with this person. If you do choose to mediate, pick one YOU are comfortable with!

#2--I am proud of you and impressed with your courage. When you first started here on TAM and this thread, you were sideswiped and blown off your feet, and now you have a good grasp of where you are, what you did, what you are doing to change and be better, what you need to do, and your rights. You are standing for yourself and have rational reasoning. So I want you to know you're doing well!!

#3--I understand your concerns and thoughts about selling the house. I suspect your wife, in her disloyal fog, is thinking "Houses sell for $160K and our mortgage is $120K that means I get $20K if we split it" and that's why she's in such a rush to sell--to continue financing her affair. Thus, if you were to put together a presentation/spreadsheet showing the realtor you got the info from, the sales in your subdivision (or whatever), pricing info and mortgage balance info, and rental info, you could then present to her that you are not stalling her moving on with her life--you are waiting so she is not saddled with a $40k debt to start her new life!

Then I suggest also presenting some realistic options to her. Seriously maybe she can sub-lease from you, and YOU can move home and she can rent your place. Maybe there are ways to creatively finance. The idea is to demonstrate to her willingness to be responsible (one of her biggest complaints) but also willingness to discuss ideas that don't end up with you both having a giant debt. She hasn't done ANY research on the divorce process (as demonstrated by her attempt to "mediate" before any divorce is filed) and my guess is that she also has not done any recent research into the housing market, recent sales in your area, etc. Thus she's still operating on the old "American dream buy low, sell idea" idea which is just no longer possible due to the economy.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

That mediator is simply trying to line her pockets, at your/your wife's expense. Stay away. What? Your W will be angry? She already is. No matter what, you need to look out for yourself and your future. Do not do anything you'll regret in 3 years if this marriage doesn't work out.


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## tamara24

The mediator is acting as an intimidator. Do not fall for that! She is supposed to be acting fair and not partial. Did that sound unpartial to you?

Your wife is reacting to you. She was emotional. She still has feelings or she would not care at all what you said. If she thinks that you are running and looking at it as if you LEFT her, move back in. Take care of the house and fish and e close to your wife. Here is the opening. Even if it is about the mortgage, this gives you an opening to move back and SHOW your wife that you have changed and give those lovebusters a chance. I would definitley explain to your wife that you are not attempting to keep her there, it is for financial concerns with the economy and market selling your house at a loss doesn't make sense. If you are able to move back in, thus saving money and helping your wife(using those love kindlers) it may take a load off her. Agree to use a seperate room until you decide to be together mutually. Ask if selling the house within a six month to a year mark to allow the economy to grow and housing needs to increase and that may be enough time to win your wife back.

She gave you very valuable information Jar, she was upset. She was looking to you to fix things. You have already stated moving out was a mistake, here is your oppurtunity to fix this. Now her anger is not going to evaporate over night, but using some love kindlers can help this out and get her to start thinking what if. 

You also need to call her again. You need to invite her out for dinner and talk about the house or go have dinner at your house. Offer to make dinner! So you can talk and she can cry. Keep your calm, I have a feeling the storm is way from over. She has a lot of stored up anger towards you and you have to understand that you just now realized why she felt that way. This is an oppurtunity for you to go home! Don't over analize it! Make sure you listen, repeat back what she says to you so that she knows you did hear her. 

She has not called lawyers yet! Get on the move and make one. Ok so, you did not go to the mediator but I heard you when I called. I want to move back so I can help you. I did not realize that you thought that I was running away from responsibilities. I would love to be home with you and our dog together. If that makes it easier for you, I will be happy to do that so I can share the responsibility.



Regardless, keep working on yourself!!! you are doing great, now prove it to her but keep a promise to keep working on you. a trip of 1000 miles begins with a single step.

Regardless, Jar. You now have her attention. She could have easily said no to you calling. She DID NOT. she even let you call her back. She must have liked something about the call. Maybe even misses you. She could also be angry you waited sooo long to call. Just another justification you are not changing in her eyes. She can be upset as long as she is communicating and telling you what you need to help her fix. Someone told me, you have to change yourself first. If she sees your changing, it might make her start!

Do not let this oppurtunity go, it may be your last. EVen if it does nothing but make her talk, that is something she has not been doing!

Keep up the great work. I am proud of you for making the call. That took a lot of courage. Don't yell back,keep calm and don't lose it even if what she says isn't entirely the way it is. Remember you are the bad guy here! Keeping the fingers crossed!


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## michzz

Move back home, move her out, rent out a room to a lodger until the economy turns around. then sell the place and move on.


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## jar

I don’t know what to make of the mediator. The word on the street about her is she is a clinical social worker, turned mediator/lawyer.

I found it strange she wanted me to come in regardless of me telling her that no progress would be made. I don’t need a mediator to talk to my wife about every day BS. It is a waste of everyone’s time.

She seems very kind and conducts mediation out of her house. But I do realize that attorneys live by billable hours. 

She kept painting this picture of this big ugly process with real attorneys etc. I explained this sort of thing really does not scary me or make me nervous. She explained she was not trying to do that just make me aware. When I initially spoke with her I asked what does the normal mediation experience run from start to finish. She wouldn’t answer me at first until I started throwing numbers out and at a minimum she saw our meditation costing 5 grand. Something I don’t think the wife has even considering. I would like to think things are more personal to her than just the money. She seems more sincere than that. I would rather take that 5 grand and invest it in the marriage. That seems to make a lot more sense to me.

I did express to her during our last session how I felt she was not very neutral. Our mediator is a woman and an attorney and I think she looked at me as the bad guy leaving my wife with our life to deal with. She made some funny comments to me about things that made me feel she wasn’t considering my position very well. Maybe she saw me as some sort of bully but I was the one tearing up worst than my wife.

It is tuff to say. I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt that her comments were not intentional. I think she needs to work on a few more compelling lines to tell her clients she didn’t have much she could argue with me about today.

JAR


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

If/when you think a divorce is inevitable, would consider getting a free consult with an attorney - or two - (your W doesn't have to know) to get an estimate of possible legal expenses. This should include mediation, which is required in many states. Sometimes it works and the judges would rather see that then make the calls about division of assets themselves.

I asked around a good bit before I sought out an attorney, and where I live an average legal separation/divorce (which includes mediation) if there are any assets at all costs about $6k. Mediation is scheduled for one day. You can pay alot more and alot less - this is just about the average where I am.

I could be wrong, but I still think this woman has found a way to make a very good living. Be careful....


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## Affaircare

I completely agree!! This truly doesn't sound kosher.


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## jar

I also feel like she is already biased because her job is to do one thing and that is to get a divorce. She isn’t there to help do anything but that. The marriage and the relationship are essentially the enemy. 

Moving home is an interesting thought that is on my mind. I think I would be met with a lot of hostility. I am not entirely sure. It is on my mind and I am thinking about it.

JAR


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## turnera

jar said:


> IMoving home is an interesting thought that is on my mind. I think I would be met with a lot of hostility.


So what? You are supposed to give up everything you want, just because she wants something else? If she doesn't want you there, let HER move out.


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## tamara24

I ditto Turnera! She yells and said that you ran away from your responsibilities, so if you move back to assume those responsibilities to show how much you have learned and are changing, what does she have to be angry about?

She will be angry, so what, let her move out.She is going to use every excuse in the book to make you feel like you are the bad guy. Yes, you did your share of the damage, but she CHEATED. If she doesn't like the fact you are moving in to assume your responsibilities, let her move out. Trust me, I don't think she really wants to do that. Her reaction to the phone calls sounds like she still has a part of her thin king about you as a couple. 
I would make the move fast and stun her. Don't warn her or give her time to come up with excuses. Because she will. Assault her senses. Would she ever dream that you would be so bold to pack a bag and show up and say I am moving back into the house to handle my responsibilities? I doubt it. She will expect you to analize it, that is what you do. 

Today is Friday, you moving in this weekend? I think it would be a good weekend to show her that you are in control.......


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## jar

What a long week. I am exhausted. I am really looking forward to some R&R this weekend.

Thank you everyone
JAR


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## jar

I don’t think I am going to just move home. I don’t think I can take the stress of it all right now.

However I am contacting my wife more often through text and email in hopes of getting some positive dialog going between us. This coming weekend I will be going home for the first time in 2 months and 3 weeks. Removing my fish tank from the house.

I have another perfect example of affair dizziness.

If you recall in our first 2 mediation sessions my wife was really upset with me because I was not willing to take care of the lawn and the mower was broken. More recently my wife has been telling me I have been running away from my responsibilities etc. 

So I have changed my mind and decided I would be willing to take care of our yard. To start I am going to use a landscaping company. When I explained to her that I would like to take over these responsibilities again and was going to take on this expense she told me not to worry about since I didn’t live there. Although she did say she was able to get the mower working for a bout 10 minutes before it died again and said it would be nice if the mower were running so she could mow the lawn. So again I explained that I am taking over this responsibility and that during the weekend when I came by I will see what I can do about the mower. One second she is mad that I am not taking care of my responsibilities and taking care of the lawn and the next moment she is telling me not to worry about it.

Either way I talked to the landscaper and he is sending me the bill directly he told me wife had been giving him a call ever few weeks. I told the guy he needed to come more frequently and mentioned specific things that I would like him to take care. After today the place should be looking more like a pristine golf coarse and not an over grown weed jungle. 

In conversation with my wife the lawn was really stressing her out big time. I hope this relives some of the stress. She is also a big time neat freak and I image having things look unkempt was a big source of frustration.

Acts of service is one of her number one love kindler.

Hopefully I can start gaining positive momentum here.

JAR


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> I don’t think I am going to just move home. I don’t think I can take the stress of it all right now.
> 
> However I am contacting my wife more often through text and email in hopes of getting some positive dialog going between us. This coming weekend I will be going home for the first time in 2 months and 3 weeks. Removing my fish tank from the house.


Okay I've noticed that you have made some good discoveries personally about the Love Kindlers, the Love Extinguishers, about your personality differences and love languages. I think some of these things were "hidden" from you before because you were so stressed and panicked that you didn't have time to see them! So for now I can see the wisdom in a few smaller steps first: being responsible for the lawn and fish will be a smaller steps but in a good direction of demonstrating that you can shoulder the burden. 



> I have another perfect example of affair dizziness.
> 
> If you recall in our first 2 mediation sessions my wife was really upset with me because I was not willing to take care of the lawn and the mower was broken. More recently my wife has been telling me I have been running away from my responsibilities etc.
> 
> So I have changed my mind and decided I would be willing to take care of our yard. ...When I explained to her that I would like to take over these responsibilities again and was going to take on this expense she told me not to worry about since I didn’t live there. ...One second she is mad that I am not taking care of my responsibilities and taking care of the lawn and the next moment she is telling me not to worry about it. ...
> 
> Acts of service is one of her number one love kindler.


Hey JAR, just a reminder note. Right now you are like "The Enemy" to her so no matter what you do, her goal is not to see and acknowledge it...or even to admit that it deposited some love. Her job is to make you out to be "the bad guy" to justify why she is doing (and has continued to do) what is out of character for her and what she knows is wrong. So everything you do will mostly likely not be met with appreciation but rather with fault finding. 

I remember in your first two mediations that you took the dog with you and she was BESIDE HERSELF with grief over the loss of the dog so you arranged for "doggy custody." After thinking of things you could give her as a concession, you thought maybe of letting her keep the dog...and then she yelled at you for dumping responsibilities on her. Then you thought she wanted you to take the dog, but that was taking away things she loved! Same for moving things out of the house. If you move out, you found a furnished place and let her keep all of the "things"--but if she moves out she takes half of everything with her! 

Soooo...I would recommend that you realize this is about 99.99% not going to meet with either approval or appreciation. However, the fact of the matter is that you are part owner in the property and it is reasonable to keep it maintained. Now, she is a fully-grown, capable woman and could EASILY have called a landscaper herself, but in this instance I trust you that it's the right thing to do: for her and for you. My point here is just know that your best case scenario will likely be confusion ("Why are you doing this? You don't care about me?"). If nothing else that at least shows that she's thinking about it and it doesn't fit her scenario of JAR=Big Bad Guy.


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## jar

JAR=Bad Guy
WW+OM= A Beautiful Honest Relationship

I can only image what she says about me to her friends and family. I realize I am the bad guy in this. It is funny how things get twisted 180. I expect this weekend to not go so well.

I am working on a letter I plan to send to her family this week. Just to let them know I am here and want to continue to be part of the family and want this marriage.

Trying to chip away at the wall the best I can. 

I still am not sure how to handle this mediator thing. I don’t plan to go back but I need to let my wife know this and I don’t want her to go off the deep end and file. I could take the honest route and explain why I don’t like this mediator but then I image she will want to find a new one.

I know I am going to be hit with this over the weekend or sooner. Trying to stall and drag my feet the best I can from all angles at this point.

JAR


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> I still am not sure how to handle this mediator thing. I don’t plan to go back but I need to let my wife know this and I don’t want her to go off the deep end and file. I could take the honest route and explain why I don’t like this mediator but then I image she will want to find a new one.


JAR~

I would suggest putting it into writing so that it's documented and something you could present in court if you had to. I would also suggest keeping it as factual as possible but effectively telling her that you do not plan to go back to mediation because you do not believe the mediator was impartial and you do not believe your interests were being represented at all. Then indicate you would be happy to work with her to select a mediator that you are BOTH confident/comfortable with...and that you also believe you two are both adults and perfectly able to reach understandings and agreements together without a mediator. 

If she is concerned about being able to "enforce" an agreement the two of you come to, I would suggest that you two meet, discuss whatever, when you reach agreement, write it down in layman's terms, then type it saying that in neither one of you are lawyers but that in layman's terms you two mutually agree to do XYZ in exchange for ABC from this date to that. Then go to a notary and sign two copies: one you keep that's notarized and one you keep that's notarized. It would cover behind end and indicate intent, and frankly at this point even agreements in mediation don't carry that weight! 

So write to her and tell her "This is to notify you that I no longer intend to go to mediation with (mediator's name). " Then put in your reasons why. Then follow that with your willingness to either pick one together that you BOTH feel represent both of your interests...and/or your willingness to work with her as adults on your own. Again, if she wants it neutral with a third party, suggest meeting in front of a pastor or someone so she feels "safe." The pastor doesn't have to SAY anything...just be a witness there of what went on to protect everyone's interests!


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## Tanelornpete

> I still am not sure how to handle this mediator thing.


First, look at the situation from an entirely logical perspective. 

1) There is only one type of legitimate mediation that can be used at this point in your relationship. 

You are not under a legal separation. Nor are you divorced. In both of those cases, the assets of your marriage may be legally divided between the two parties. In fact, as soon as either form is filed, you will need to find a way to divide the assets. _That is when a mediator is *useful*_ - to create a neutral situation in which this division can be discussed.

However, since there is no _legal_ situation involved, the process is illegitimate. A divorce is the dissolution of a contractual arrangement. When the papers are filed, the process of ending the contract begins - and this carries through until the day in which the divorce is finalized. At that point there is no longer a partnership involved. 

Part of the process of divorce is the division of assets. In essence, since NO DIVORCE has been filed, the dissolution of the partnership has not yet even begun. The way it stands, until the divorce is final, and you are both living, the marriage is still in effect. You are partners, equal owners of the assets - regardless of the amount of physical space between you.

In essence, what this mediator wants to do is walk into your bedroom, draw a line across the middle and then say, 'the stuff on this side is hers, the stuff on that side is yours.'

Utter foolishness.​
2) There is no legal means to enforce any agreement that you or your wife come to in your current situation. No legal document can be written that tells you that the remote is yours, the TV is hers, and neither of you can use the others equipment. It cannot be enforced.

The ONLY legitimate type of mediation available to a married couple that is NOT in the process of divorce is a mediator of communication. A neutral party that will allow both sides to have equal say, will keep the process smooth and open, and will help overcome difficulties in communication.

So, I suggest that you simple write a note to your wife, explaining that while you are absolutely open to mediation, you respectfully request a mediator on which you BOTH agree. There is no reason on God's green earth why she should find a problem with that! (Not that she won't...)​


> I don’t plan to go back but I need to let my wife know this and I don’t want her to go off the deep end and file.


Up to now, your wife has shown NO sign of even approaching the notion of filing. That is a huge, expensive step, and one that she, so far (at least from what you write) has show no comprehension. Her tactic is to find ways to scare you into behaving the way she wants. 

But - - - _so what if she does?_ No divorce is immediate, or even quick, especially with assets involved. And on top of this, YOU are not required to roll over and beg when she says to! You can postpone the thing a LONG time. 

Moreover, once a divorce begins, you have the option of requesting a mediator whose entire job is to discover and rectify problems in the marriage. You can get a judge to ORDER that you both attend in order for the divorce to proceed. 



> I could take the honest route and explain why I don’t like this mediator but then I image she will want to find a new one.


Yep - and part of the agreement you should make with her is to find one upon which BOTH of you agree. Ask her why it is so important to find one with which you do not agree? What would she think if YOU decided on that step? 

I bet she would refuse to attend! Hmm - sound familiar?

----------------
Now playing: King Crimson - Nuages
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera

I guess I don't understand what the mediator is for, if you two aren't divorcing. What was her original explanation for the mediation? Was it to divide assets? Did you ask her why you didn't just divorce, or were you too afraid to say those words?


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## Affaircare

turnera said:


> I guess I don't understand what the mediator is for, if you two aren't divorcing. What was her original explanation for the mediation? Was it to divide assets? Did you ask her why you didn't just divorce, or were you too afraid to say those words?


*DING DING DING!* Turnera gets the prize!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That is exactly the point. In the divorce process, someone files, then the other guy responds, then there is DISCOVERY (so that every asset and liability is found and listed) and THEN there is mediation to divide things up because both parties know what they are agreeing to. To have mediation to divide assets and liabilities before DISCOVERY makes no sense!

Mediation before divorce is usually to try to reconcile. 

We can only GUESS that she was thinking of a collaborative divorce or joint divorce or something. :scratchhead:  Don't really know because it makes no sense. Further, it makes even LESS sense that the mediator never once mentioned that it.


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## jar

Affaircare Pete Turnera

I understand what you are all saying and it all makes sense. Why would we go to mediation before any legal things have taken place? Makes no sense. I do believe that my wife has ideas of this amicable happy civil collaborative divorce. This process that we were going through with mediation kind of gets her that. But you are right about this process should focus around reconciliation and it really makes me mad that this mediator would not do this even when I asked. I have never said why don’t you just file already I am scared to say something like this. I am nervous that she would jump the gun and get the ball rolling out of emotion and spite just to prove something to me. 

All of your advice is great however I am not sure if I should initiate the conversation or should I sit back and wait for her to bring it up. Talks of divorces make me nervous. 

If she should file I realize I now have options and time however I would think that this would be another nail in the coffin and another complication that does not get us to the real problem. The affair, reconciliation, and dealing with our issues as a couple.

JAR


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## Affaircare

As an overall rule, JAR, remember you do not talk divorce. That is her threat to get you to do things. YOU talk reconciliation or sort of bide your time. YOU indicate you are willing to be reasonable (because you are). YOU let her know that you don't want a war and show her that you are not reacting out of bitterness or spite. This is why I suggested that you put it in writing, because you can think over the wording to be sure its respectful and reasonable, and at the same time you can be gentle while standing up for your interests. 

Your wife may be thinking of herself and her best interests, but your job would be to think of yourself and her...and your family's best interests. Sometimes the good of the family is not what's is "best" for her right this minute. Does that make sense? That doesn't mean you should suggest divorcing. Nor does it mean that you necessarily file. If she does, you still have lots of options though, and her filing does not scare you or mean it's over (if you watch The Awful Truth--a movie with Cary Grant--the whole movie is the couple while they talk about and threaten divorce and even file)!










So nope, you suggest meeting together and being reasonable. You're an adult and so is she, so I see no reason you couldn't reach some agreements. The trick that she'll have trouble with is that means SHE will be losing some things she currently holds dear, and I bet she'll put you in the "the bad guy" spot for making her lose them. Nope. She would HAVE 100% full access to them and all she has to do is DETERMINE IN HER HEART TO BE FAITHFUL and end it with the OM. So 100% it is her choice. You part is that you're letting her experience the consequence of her choice rather than shielding her. See the difference? 

If she just is "too afraid" to meet with you alone, have some 3rd party you both agree on at the meetings like a pastor or someone you both trust. The key word there is BOTH...not just her and not just you (so nope, your dad or her mom wouldn't work). Okay? And for now don't mention that word that starts with d... Just mention agreeing on some things for right now while you are apart.


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## jar

Affaircare

I understand what you are saying in theory. 

I still do not completely follow in practice. 

A.	Prepare for this mediation/divorce conversation by writing a letter and talking with you guys.
B.	Sit back and wait for her to bring it up again and gently talk openly and honestly about my feelings of the mediator etc.
C.	Try to work out an agreement together with out a mediator

Are these the steps that are being recommended?

Thank you
JAR


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## jar

Just got an email from the wife more affair dizziness and fault finding. I think she is trying to make a point about something but it makes no sense to me.


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## tamara24

Good morning Jar,

The wife has to keep you looking as the bad guy. You just took two of her cheif complaints(the dog and the yard) and sent them down the river. Now here comes the big fish day, first time you have seen each other in awhile.The wife needs to start building that arsenal.Wait, Jar, just took over the yard, is getting the fish, and offered me the dog. Hmmm. He is up to something,he is trying to get me to let my guard down.......

Whatever you do Jar, don't react to anything she throws at you. You are a changed man.Keep calm and patient and show her you are not that same guy.The D word will be used as she gets more and more desperate to get you to react.

I agree with the email about the mediator, just for security purposes, but keep the lines of communication open by talking to her.

You are so much stronger than you realize. Remember you are the one in control while she has to sort out this affair dizziness for your family. You are the one that sees clearly. Yes, she can always file for divorce but she has not. Something is holding her back. Even if it is just out of respect for you,she still cares about you. Take all that she has thrown you in the emails and think of a calm rational response for each one. Think of other things she might throw at you, how you will react to it. You will be great. Hang in there.. Take a few deep breathes and show her how you have risen through this crisis.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

If you don't know what to say - say nothing! An "I'll get back to you on that" will suffice. It is easy to say things we don't mean or may regret in an uncomfortable conversation. Been there, done that


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## Affaircare

> I understand what you are saying in theory.
> 
> I still do not completely follow in practice.
> 
> A.	Prepare for this mediation/divorce conversation by writing a letter and talking with you guys.
> B.	Sit back and wait for her to bring it up again and gently talk openly and honestly about my feelings of the mediator etc.
> C.	Try to work out an agreement together with out a mediator
> 
> Are these the steps that are being recommended?


Ah! LOL :lol: I see that you would like a step-by-step type direction, so let me give you some steps in order this time but bear in mind that part of my job here is to help you learn how to decide the steps to take on your own. 

Sooooo...in this instance you had mentioned that your wife was likely to ask you about mediation either this weekend (during the fish tank move) or sooner. I took that to mean she would say something to you like: "So are you going to mediate or not?" or "Are you willing to mediate this or do we go to court?" And you have mentioned that you do not feel comfortable with that mediator and given reasons why this is not a good match. 

Thus, I suggest that since you know this question is coming, that you write the letter now and even though she hasn't asked it yet out loud, I see no reason not to tell her now that you are more than willing to be reasonable and fair, that you do not want to start a war where there is none, and that you'd be happy to mediate but you'd like to pick a mediator that you are BOTH happy with and you BOTH choose. You don't bring up the topic of divorce or indicate that you agree to divorce in a civil manner--just that you do intend to be kind and reasonable. 

Now in her head, she's in affair fog right? She's envisioning that you just disappear and the OM is inserted in your space, basically you leave civilly, and she gets equity out of the house and can use that to restart her life with the OM. Well, yes it will make her mad because that is not realistic. In REAL life, the mediation before divorce is filed would be for reconciliation or for something like an agreement during temporary separation. Okay from your point of view that would be somewhat reasonable to agree to. You aren't divorcing, it buys you time, but it reassures her and puts you in a position of knowing what to expect and what will hit you when, etc. Then in REAL life a divorce in the USA takes on average about a year, it's contested, the economy sucks and after selling the house she's left with a $20k debt...and the OM leaves her and returns to the hole he crawled out of!  So that makes her mad because it's not matching her affair fog. 

Anyway, here are the steps:

1) Write her the letter about mediation. (aka "This is to inform you that I do not intend to return to mediation with --mediator's name-- because I do not believe my interests were being impartially represented at all. I do intend to be fair and reasonable, and I do not intend to start a war, but I also do not intend to be forced into something with which I don't agree. I respect your desire to be civil and do hope you'd also offer me the same respect. Thus I have two options: we are adults we can reach agreements ourselves or if you'd like a third party involved, I suggest either picking a person we both know and trust to be a witness as we reach agreements ourselves or we pick a mediator together with whom we are both comfortable.") *NOTE *that the letter does not say you agree to divorce or bring up divorce. 

2) When you are in contact with her, you don't bring up divorce, wanting to divorce, asking her to divorce, etc. but if she brings it up, you aren't afraid. I would personally NOT choose the "I need time because the pain is so great" route--but rather something stronger like, "I realize that may be your choice but my opinion differs greatly" or "That may be what you choose but I choose to honor my promise." (Wherever you can, bring it back to loving her and honoring your promises.) When YOU discuss things, it would be to resolve your differences and return to a happy marriage...but you could also say you'd be willing to discuss an agreement for during this separation. When SHE discusses things and brings up divorce, you can use the statements above or somewhat firmly re-iterate that you do not agree to a divorce but would consider more formal separation. (Now, JAR, you do realize that she can file and the divorce would proceed even if you don't agree, but that's not the point. The point is that SHE would have to be the one to initiate it, continue it, and finally end it...and your actions would only be to respond, defend yourself, and accept she did it....make sense?). 

3) Prepare NOW for what she wants to do. She is most likely trying to do a joint-divorce/collaberative divorce which is where you two reach an agreement on how to divide property and file together saying you agree to divorce. You do not agree to do this voluntarily--but you can also pre-empt some of her anger by showing her that part of that desire to not divorce is not just a stall--it's because financially it will be very harmful. That's why I suggest having your realtor prepare that MLS report, so that an outside 3rd party is saying "These 9 homes sold in your city in the last 12 months with sq.ft. and land similar to your home. Average sale price was $200k and it took 9 months to sell." Get her into REALITY LAND and not by you (JAR "The Bad Guy") but by a neutral 3rd party. Then if she can do simple math (Mortgage balance = $240k, selling price = $200k in almost a YEAR!... that means a debt of $20k each not cash in the hand) she can see the cost of what she's pushing for and why you are resisting...among other reasons.   

FYI--This site, City Data.com, may also have info on recent sales in your zip code.


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## panafedin

jar said:


> Just got an email from the wife more affair dizziness and fault finding. I think she is trying to make a point about something but it makes no sense to me.


JAR: we're all here wanting to know what this email said.... Thoughts and prayers are with you.

Pana


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## jar

Affaircare

Thank you for taking the time to write so much. The step by step is very helpful and clarifies things a lot for me. It gives me a lot to think about and some good direction. It takes me a while to write things and I am working on a letter to my in laws and a letter to my wife about mediation plus this weekend is the fish tank weekend so I feel I have a full plate just trying to stay a few steps a head of my wife.

So now here is the next question. I fully plan to have a conversation with our mediator about how she is not very neutral again. However before I do this I need to buy myself so more time. The mediator has left me two messages tonight about rescheduling. So I need time to get my thoughts collected and also to work with my wife about my feelings about mediation and working together as adults. 

I was thinking of emailing the mediator something like this to blow off mediation.

Hi XXXX

I am still exploring several different avenues regarding the sale of our home. Therefore I am not prepared to return to mediation until I have all my ducks in a row.

Wife or I will contact you to schedule our next appointment.

Best Regards
JAR


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Suggestion:

"I am in the process of collecting 3rd party information regarding the value of our home and its potential to sell in this market. I prefer not to go further in any mediation talks until I have this critical piece of the puzzle."

or something like that....(note: _our home_, _any mediation_)


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

*Two *messages in *one* night?? I kid you not, something is funky with this "professional."


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## Affaircare

I have a quick question for ya. :scratchhead:  Why not just come right out and say it to the mediator and "copy" to your wife? What's holding you back for speaking your mind? 

"(Mediator's Name), 

I've received your messages about rescheduling with you, and I guess there has been a miscommunication. I do not intend to return to mediation with you and I thought for future clients you might appreciate knowing why. 

According to national statistics, the average divorce in the USA costs $6k and yet you told me you had the intent/estimated that your services alone would cost us $5k, and it's my opinion that your charge is excessive and going for the billable hour. I am not okay with that. In addition, you very clearly recognized and pushed for my WIFE'S best interests and not only did you not consider mine or remain impartial, you attempted to threaten me if I didn't mediate -- trying to scare me with a war in court. I don't consider that to be impartial or professional. Thus, since I did not retain your services, I now choose to no longer use your services. 

This does not mean I will not mediate with my wife. It means that I choose not to reschedule with you. I would be more than happy to find someone with whom we are BOTH comfortable. At this time I am not comfortable with you. 

Thank you for your time and good luck in the future. "


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## Affaircare

Neverwouldhave guessed said:


> *Two *messages in *one* night?? I kid you not, something is funky with this "professional."


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## turnera

Just tell her the freakin' truth. "You are not a professional mediator, and I am pursuing actions to have you investigated."


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## jar

I think you all are right.

There is no sense beating around the bush on mediation.

I will let the mediator know what I think today.

I suspect my wife will go off the deep end but I am ready for it.

Thank you
JAR


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## panafedin

well, since *you* can only control *you*, just make sure you stay out of the 'pool.' If she goes off the deep end, just stick with the points/script the wise people here have recommended. No matter what, just stay on the script. Regardless of what your emotions may be screaming to you internally at any given moment, your actions..your behaviors..your replies WILL be the *best* possible action/reaction regardless of what curveballs are thrown your way.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am following this. Good work and good luck.


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## tamara24

Hoping all goes well with you this weekend.....

You have read and learned a lot from this thread,keep it all in mind when the going gets tough. You are a strong person and made postive strides in your life. Don't loose sight of that. Good Luck.


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## jar

Thank you 

I made it through the day. It went ok I am working on writing the blow by blow. Stay tuned

Jar


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## jar

Yesterday was the first time I have been home in over 2.5 months. Overall things went well and I was ready for it.

For those of you who do not remember. Yesterday was the day I was to go home and dismantle my large saltwater aquarium. It was a big project that took all day. This is also a huge emotional deal and I am rather attached to it. For you who say ah it just a stupid fish tank…For me it is a 6 year learning project with countless hours of research and reading. This is a hobby that I am really into. Also some of the fish that were left in the tank have been in there since day one. That’s right I had fish and corals that had been in that tank for 6 years.

When I pulled into the drive way my wife was playing with our dog out in the front yard.

After a few minutes of playing with the dog I went into the house. The house was beyond OCD organized. I have been in a few medical clean rooms before and I swear the house was cleaner than that. Over all the place looked amazing. Wife has been really busy.

I instantly noticed all the photographs of us where not out on display any longer all the photos of our wedding day that were hanging in our stair well were also gone. It really hurt my feelings to see this. But I was ready for it and almost expecting it. I went up stairs to our bedroom. The things that I kept on my dresser like my change holder and my watch box were all put away. Photos of us were gone. I went down to our basement which is my sanctified place in the house. I have it set up just the way I want it with my tools and machinery etc. It is the only area of our house that is my zone. I noticed things had been put away and reorganized a bit. That bugged me. For me it is the same as if I were to reorganize and tidy up my wifes dresser with my guy friends. 

My wife is the really organized one and she had plastic all taped down to the hard wood floor in the living room and the furniture pushed out of the way. She had also taken out my fish tank buckets for me. The fish tank by the way is something that she has never been very enthusiastic about. So her taking care of it while I was a way was a huge burden. She felt bad because the heat wave we had this summer killed every coral in the tank and some of the fish. She apologized for this. I thanked her for taking care of it and explained that it would have happened to me.

I began dismantling things and moving everything out side where they could be cleaned and hosed off. All the while wife was cleaning windows in the house in a very anal retentive way. Shop vac buckets paper towel scrubby etc Way over the top... We have 33 of them. I know this because we replaced everyone one of them a few years back. Lunch time rolled around and wife came and announced she made lunch if I wanted to join here. 

She had made bbq chicken mashed potatoes and peas. Some of my favorite foods. During lunch it was a bit weird between us. She didn’t eat much. I stuffed myself silly. We talked aout our dog and our twin nieces. She noticed I had cut my finger and got the bandages out and Neosporin for me. The gesture was a very nice kind thing to do. I really appreciated it and thanked her. I like to eat just as much as everyone else but acts of service like this really are not much of a love kindler for me. I have explained this in the past to her. Either way it was a really nice thing to-do. The past few months have been pretty heated debates at the mediator table.

After lunch I resumed my fish tank project. She helped me catch the fish. We had a few giggles while doing this. After she had caught the last one she made a comment that she was so happy to get rid of this thing and it was a bane in her existents. I realize she was relived to get rid of this thing. But she knows how important this is to me and what I am giving up. As she was going back to working on the windows she mentioned that she wanted to talk when I was finished. I explained that we would see how I felt.

The rest of the afternoon. I continued to dismantle and clean out my fish tank. I made a few runs to the local pet store they took most of my rocks gravel and fish of my hands for me and gave me some store credit. This stuff was worth big money and got 100 bucks for it. I guess better than nothing.

The rest of the afternoon I just started to get frustrated and emotional at my wife’s comments. I feel that I am loosing everything that is important to me. My wife dog house etc. She is the one that had the affair and is not happy and it is not fair that I am giving up everything just for her. Does she realize what I am doing for her and what I am giving up?

So as the afternoon dragged on I got everything dismantled cleaned up and put away in the basement. I still can’t believe I moved this tank by my self it ways a ton. Wife asked if I need to take anything with me also. All I asked for was my camera. She asked what about more clothes and etc. I explained that is all I need.

The other thing that was making me upset besides people touching my stuff, the pictures being gone, I started to notice little things around the house that had been fixed. Like the screen door latch had been replaced. Molding in our entry way had been painted a small hole in the wall in one of the bedrooms had been fixed. There were even paint swatches hanging on the fridge. The calking in the shower had been replaced. By the way the shower I spent a month tiling it my self. I completely gutted that bath room and rebuilt it my self. All of these projects weren’t up to my standards. I realized this was my father in laws handy work. Bothered me because wife never asked me to help or mentioned she was doing these things. 

It was the end of the afternoon I was hot sweaty and sore and getting emotional so I gave the dog a hug and told wife I was leaving. She responded by saying what you don’t want to talk to me. I said I am tired and that I would love to talk at another time. She told me there would not be anther time to talk so I sat down and listened. She told me she was about to file. I said wife do what ever it is you need to do to make your self happy. I shut down walked off and said I will talk with you later and proceeded to leave. I didn’t get mad or yell I just was shut down. It had been a long day.

I drove off and got outside of town and realized that I had forgotten to give my wife the gift I had bought for her the night before. I wise very wise person mentioned to me I should pick up a simple thank you gift for taking care of the fish tank. Nothing mushy something I would give to a friend. So I got her a lavender plant bush I am not sure it was in a hanging basket and I like the color of the flowers. I turned the car around and went back home. When I pulled in wife came out and said what are you doing. I said I got you this basket as a thank you gift for taking care of my fish. I explained I also had forgotten to thank her for lunch. She seemed a bit taken back and said you didn’t have to get me anything. She seemed to except the gift as a nice gesture and I think I gave her a worm fuzzy. Wife asked if we could sit on the patio and talk and that it was important. I will add in we built the patio together a few summers ago. I agreed to talk even know I wasn’t there to talk business. I figured I could listen.

We both did ok with the conversation. It did not get too heated.

First part of the conversation was wife just emotionally dumping on me it was a bit over whelming. I just listened and did not argue.

Wife explained that she was stressed out. With getting the house ready to sell and that her parents had been coming to help her fix things up. It was a lot of work and she had been doing everything on her own.

She mentioned that the dog was stressing her out. She mentioned that when she traveled to her family place with her she had gotten into some trouble and was a bit of a pain in the but. She felt like I had dumped the dog on her. The dog had also been sick and vomited all over the coach that week. 

She mentioned that her sister wasn’t very supportive and felt the need to tell her her business when ever she could. She also mentioned her mom and dad weren’t doing to great. They both had a lot of sadness for us. She also mentioned that she expected to be going to 4 funerals this year. She mentioned that grandparents uncles and a friend that were not doing very well. I will remind you that my wife’s personality type holds family near and dear to her heart. More so than other personality types.


Wife explained that she was irritated with the happy memory email I had sent her during the week.

Wife also mentioned she was irate the mower was broken. 

Wife went on and on about this one. She resented she was paying for half our boat payment and that she was not using it. She also resented that I reminded her I still owned half our home. She went on and on about the boat. She mentioned she had seen photos of us the previous weekend using the boat. It was a big boat party with fiends. She was mad because she felt we were being irresponsible. She was mad we had beer on the boat. She was mad that there were pretty girls in bikinis on the boat with me and she wanted to know who they were. She was also mad that she new none of the people in the pictures. She went on and on about the boat for a long while. She even felt that if something happened to us while boating she would be liable. She even new the names of the girls and wanted to know about each one.

I just listened. At the end of the emotional dump from her. I responded by saying. You are upset that I use the boat and you do not approve of the way that I am using it or the people I chose to spend my time with. I mentioned you cried and got up set multiple times about not having the dog so I gave her to you and now you are upset because I feel guilty about taking her away from you and her home. I said you are mad because you feel I haven’t stepped up and taken care of my responsibilities but you have not mentioned or asked for my help on these house projects and when I admitted I had been harsh and was willing to help you with the lawn you got mad and said I can take care of it my self.

After I made those comments we went back through and talked bout each subject again more openly. I did a lot of listening. It was a basically very good conversation. I won’t bore you all with the details the conversation but it did turn to relationship talk.

I did learn a few important things that are worth mentioning. 

She asked if I heard from mediator. I told wife I didn’t like mediator at all. Wife looked at me and said do you feel she is not very neutral and I explained yes. Wife explained she didn’t like mediator either and had emailed mediator several times and not received a response back from her. She even emailed mediator and explained she didn’t think she was neutral. I listed all the reason I didn’t like mediator etc. In the end we agreed that it was ok to fire mediator. I told wife I was going to fire mediator and had an email ready to send to her. Wife asked if I could send it to her to proof first. Kind of ironic we both don’t like mediator and we both agree about it.

Wife said she had met with an attorney and was going to file very soon. She mentioned she was sick of waiting around. For me. This where relationship talk started. I explained to wife that I had gone through a living hell in the past 8 months. I told her that some books describe what I had been through worst than losing a spouse to death.

I explained I just wanted time and selling our home I was scared. I was scared of the debt and that it would haunt us for a very long time. I explained didn’t want a war and I was willing to try and move forward with out attorneys and mediators together. I explained that I was very much in love with wife and that I wanted to be her husband and stay true to my vows and commit to her. She began to cry and become upset. 


Got close to her and held her hand gently. She said that can’t happen. She said what I did to you wasnt write and there is no excuse for it. She explained that she had been through hell during the past months also but the past few years were very dark for her. She explained she needed to move forward in her life instead of just being in limbo. 

I tried to wipe a tear from her cheek and she pulled away and she said you can’t be that person any more. I told wife I very much wanted to be that person and that I had hope and faith for us. Wife explained she didn’t share that vision. She then explained that during therapy I just didn’t get it and she was sick of it and trying to explain it. 

I told wife she was rite about therapy. I told her I was just constantly reacting and felt like a deer in the head lights. I told her I needed to regroup process and work on my self some. I explained what I had learned and my new understanding of things to her. She seemed to take it all in.

A few minutes later the conversation ended and I left for my place. She thanked me for taking down the fish tank and for the flowers.

She gave me till Tuesday to let her know how I want to proceed. She explained after Tuesday she would be getting her layer involved.

So it would seem that there is some dizziness going on still. I am also wondering if the affair is still going on. I am not sure. I assume it is but what I also realize is my wife has some anger and a lot of hurt that is projected at me. Wonder if she can forgive in the long run. It seems she has some guilt or remorse.

Sorry for the book…The writing is a way for me to vent and reflect about the days events. 

I don’t know what to think about yesterday but it wasn’t all bad.


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## jar

update

I tansferd money to you just a few minutes ago.

The house looked incredible yesterday.

It was really good to see you, talk, and check in with one another. I enjoyed it.

Thank you for making such a nice lunch. It was the best meal I have had in a while. 

Love
JAR

XXXXX

Hi JAR, 

Thanks for the money transfer, I appreciate the compliments on the house and thank you again for the flowers it was very nice of you. I also appreciate the conversation yesterday, I guess it made me feel better about moving forward with things and how you felt about mediator. If you are going to send an email to her I would like to see it before youd o so. Also, let me know by Tuesday how you are feeling about things. 

JAR wife


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## Affaircare

Jar!  WOW!! Oh my goodness there is so much in that post...seriously it's going to take a while to write all this just in reply! But what can I say? MAJOR, MAJOR breakthrough! I am so proud of you and happy for you.


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## bestplayer

jar said:


> update
> 
> I tansferd money to you just a few minutes ago.
> 
> The house looked incredible yesterday.
> 
> It was really good to see you, talk, and check in with one another. I enjoyed it.
> 
> Thank you for making such a nice lunch. It was the best meal I have had in a while.
> 
> Love
> JAR
> 
> XXXXX
> 
> Hi JAR,
> 
> Thanks for the money transfer, I appreciate the compliments on the house and thank you again for the flowers it was very nice of you. I also appreciate the conversation yesterday, I guess it made me feel better about moving forward with things and how you felt about mediator. If you are going to send an email to her I would like to see it before youd o so. Also, let me know by Tuesday how you are feeling about things.
> 
> JAR wife


ok I know I am jumping in from no where but as I have been following your posts for long time , just curious what exactly she meant by saying "you can’t be that person any more " ?


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## jar

That comment has me wondering also. I am not comply sure what it means.

Maybe because she is so emotionally shut down from me and the wall she has built up around her is huge

Maybe she doesn’t want me to be that person any longer

Maybe OM has replaced me in that department.

Maybe it means I haven’t done a good job with that sort of thing in the past and I couldn’t possibly be trusted to do the job again

I don’t really know but it also has me wondering.

JAR


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## tamara24

Jar,
WOW! You made such a breakthrough!
I know it probably hurt you to see that she took the pics down. But she probably saw them as a reminder of what she did and between the guilt and anger, that was the best thing she could do to keep from having to think about it.

The fact that she made some of your favorite dishes shows that she still remembers you, and your likes and dislikes. Had she just not cared and wanted you out of the house, you could have gotten a sandwich!The clean house was meant for you to see. She needs you to see her as doing well without you. But as you have mentioned she is OCD, and cleaning her house is also a huge stress reliever from knowing that you are coming to the house. The questions about the boat and the girls is because it hurts her to think you are moving on. It really has nothing to do with her being liable if you are reckless. But she can't say that to you, she wants a divorce and being jealous does not fit into that neat little idea of hers. The house is stressing her, the mower, al things that she needs to be rid of because they are reminders of you and she needs to be independent.
First, you need to be seeing her more often, again I say this to you because nobody can save a marraige when you can't see or touch that person. Emails and texts are not going to get any points across. Second, she wants to hear from you by Tuesday so I bet you are trying to analize another email to her. Stop. First, I would get information about the houses selling in your area, how much your house is worth and what you could expect as your selling price. Obviously the economy is not working in your favor at the moment so have the paperwork to back that up. Third, Call her and ask if you can get together to discuss everything again. Meet at the house or a neutral place. Maybe take her to dinner at her favorite returant and then go back to the house. Then lay it all out. This is what it will cost to get rid of the house, if we wait six months, maybe the market will change to our favor. Point out, you have not prevented her from going on with her life and that the house is an obstacle that could be dealt with later to ensure you both get out of debt free. Do not lead into emotional ties at this point. She needs to see a logical point in this matter as it is causing such a great stress.

The comment that you can't be that person anymore. Because all the hurt and anger is all still there. Whatever those dark years were for her are still very very hurtful. This is why you need to be there, Jar. You have to show her that you have changed. You are now making her your number one priority. Go fix the freaking lawn mower. Mow the lawn. Ask if there are any other items in the house that you need to fix prior to selling. Even if you know you are there just to see her, she will think you are being cooperative in prepping the house. This will give you time to do some love kindlers.You have to break the wall down. The fact she was emotional was because there are so many feelings going through her. She apologized for the affair, guilt is killing her. If she had no feelings left for you she would feel justifeied in having that affair and there would have been no apology made.
She agreed about the mediator, that was a step. SHe was willing to find another and work with you. Use this to your advantage.

The plant was an excellent idea. The follow up emails were great. Her email back to you was great, she is starting to talk. Now if you keep making your presence known, she will open up more to you about those feelings, causing that wall to start crumbling. She may be dead set with getting a divorce started because you are keeping her in limbo. Why does she feel that? Because you talk the talk in emails and texts but she has not seen the actions to get her out of that fog where you are the bad guy.By sitting down and talking to her face to face, she even admitted she felt better. Keep it going! She doesn't want you to hold her hand because she is afraid of what feelings it will bring up. If you keep meeting her and keep her talking, there will be more times to make those subtle gestures and she will accept them,(but she will be scared for falling back in love with you) so be patient and just show her the man you have become. I would also ask for a month of dating her to get a chance to show her that you do understand what you had done, what you are doing to fix things, and that you are willing to forgive the affair so you can make a commitment to her.She has waited this long to file, what is one measley month?Then she can file if she still feels that way.

Keep doing such a great job. I know this was very emotional for you, but if you can keep those emotions in check and listen to hers, it will get you somewhere.


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## jar

Thank you for the encouraging words. 

I have a very similar plan cooked up. Things this weekend went better than I thought it would.

This Thursday is our 4 year anniversary wonder if she will send me a card or anything.

I plan to send some flowers and a card.


JAR


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## tamara24

jar said:


> Thank you for the encouraging words.
> 
> I have a very similar plan cooked up. Things this weekend went better than I thought it would.
> 
> This Thursday is our 4 year anniversary wonder if she will send me a card or anything.
> 
> I plan to send some flowers and a card.
> 
> 
> JAR


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

The flowers and card are nice gestures. I think I would take it further. Call and say,iisten, I know we are at odds at the moment. Regardless of everything going on, I would like to take you to dinner on Thursday for our anniversary. I know it may be the last but I wish to treasure the time we spent together. The least she can say is no and you can still send the flowers and card and cause the warm fuzzies. The point is, you are making her feel special. You can bet she is not looking forward to Thursday and thinking of sitiing at home and thinking about your failed marraige.It might be worth that extra thought to show her it still means something to you. You said the weekend went better than you thought,that's because she saw you and was able to verbalize things she can't in an email. What do you have to lose,all she can say is no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

First... TAMARA!! :allhail: You said it! You wrote out what I was thinking so wow! Let's just say that I agree!! :iagree:

To touch on just a few other options/topics, I do suggest getting back to her by Tuesday with your plan to "move forward" but basically suggesting that you two put legal things on the back burner "for now" and focus instead on the house and getting the house ready for sale and doing the things needed to sell the house. Move forward by contacting a realtor and scheduling just a walk-through. Schedule an appraisal. Make a list of the projects that need "to be done" in order to get it into shape for sale. Agree together that you will not sell the house for less than the mortgage (so that will buy you some time--like a few months--and even in the worst case scenario you'd both be starting off debt free). Volunteer to help with the projects on the "to be done" list. Volunteer to "house shop" together in areas you both find agreeable. Anyway, get the idea? 

If she really presses the idea of some legal stuff (and I doubt she will) there are alternatives like "We're adults, let's just meet and see what we can agree on" ... OR ... "Lets agree to have Pastor Dave there as a third party witness" (assuming she knows and trusts the pastor and you do too)...OR... "Let's start interviewing mediators together!" rofl: so you'd be spending time with her! :lol ... OR ... as a last resort you can always suggest legal separation because "divorce is for a lifetime and we should make that decision very deliberately and after due consideration." 

For your anniversary, I would suggest doing something to acknowledge it even if she doesn't, but I would suggest keeping it almost light and friendly. Right now going "romantic" would probably be too much and not build love, but being her friend, having some fun, etc. might be well-received. Thus I suggest something like saying, "Hey our anniversary is coming up, and I hate to completely ignore it ... want to go out to pizza with me for a break from the stress?" Same for the gift and card. Go with something light hearted, maybe funny or with a dog on it... The goal is to be her friend right now, not "her husband" or "her lover" (although you are also those things). She has a better likelihood of responding to "JAR her friend" and then associating a happy, positive memory with you. 

Okay?


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,
Nice job. You have such a big heart!


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## jar

Well I sent my wife the letter to the mediator for her to proof. It is harsh I have re written a bunch of times. I am really mad at the mediator. I asked wife to lighten it up a bit. 

I also sent wife a heads up telling her I am ready to move forward on the house. I recommend we talk on the phone tomorrow for a while and begin formulating plan. 

I am going to recommend that we get together weekly for dinner to discuss things and figure out to-do lists. Do you think I can use the house like a bargaining chip? Something like since I am agreeing to this even know I am uncomfortable can you go to dinner with me x number of times or read x book or do something that is important for me? Now that I have written it doesn’t sound like it would be a good idea.

For our anniversary I plan to get her a gift certificate for a massage at this spa place her and her friend like to go to. She keeps talking about how stressed she is. I plan to send it in the mail along with a funny playful card. I am also going to recommend we go get pizza and beer at the local pizza place. It is of one of these brick oven pizza joints. Something we use to do on regular bases. I am also having a small thing of flowers delivered to the house. I explained to the florist what I was looking for. Simple and elegant nothing over the top. I did request white lilies. Her favorite…with some red flower like a rose to accent things… her favorite color. I even suggested a red vase. I explained the whole situation to the florist about what we were going through she seemed to get that it couldn’t be over the top or too romantic just a nice caring thought. Our wedding was an elegant black and white wedding with red accents here and there. Hopefully I am on the right track and this will be accepted well. Let me know what you think. I can always change the order. I am sending everything in case she doesn’t want to get together. I am not expecting anything in return.

Thank you everyone for the help support and suggestions. 
JAR


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## Affaircare

> Well I sent my wife the letter to the mediator for her to proof. It is harsh I have re written a bunch of times. I am really mad at the mediator. I asked wife to lighten it up a bit.


Good--excellent! This gives her the chance to soften it, to see your feelings a little, and to be doing this together with you (needed) not to just be some final stamp of approval. 



> I am going to recommend that we get together weekly for dinner to discuss things and figure out to-do lists. Do you think I can use the house like a bargaining chip? Something like since I am agreeing to this even know I am uncomfortable can you go to dinner with me x number of times or read x book or do something that is important for me? Now that I have written it doesn’t sound like it would be a good idea.


Ummmmm...WHOA!! NO!! :redcard::nono: Think of it this way: you're wife is doing you a favorite to consider working with you on it as a partner. So you'd be asking her to do you a favor because she did you a favor. JAR, let me give you a reality check here. I'm not saying it would be nice, but a lot of women hit the guy with a Restraining Order, move the BF in, wipe out the bank account, run up the credit cards, call in cops and all kinds of legal hassle...and are evil and spiteful to boot! She's being civil and from what I can see, she has not liked this house for quite some time. Now...that may be some degree of fog talk but it's quite clear now that she doesn't like it. So do you, as a loving husband, want to put your wife in the position of feeling crushed and resentful? I suspect not. The way to do that is to not do what SHE wants to do (so you resent it) and not do what YOU want to do (so that she resents it) but to keep on working together until you come up with something you can both be enthusiastic about!! 



> For our anniversary I plan to get her a gift certificate for a massage at this spa place her and her friend like to go to. She keeps talking about how stressed she is. I plan to send it in the mail along with a funny playful card. I am also going to recommend we go get pizza and beer at the local pizza place. It is of one of these brick oven pizza joints. Something we use to do on regular bases. I am also having a small thing of flowers delivered to the house. I explained to the florist what I was looking for. Simple and elegant nothing over the top. I did request white lilies. Her favorite…with some red flower like a rose to accent things… her favorite color. I even suggested a red vase. I explained the whole situation to the florist about what we were going through she seemed to get that it couldn’t be over the top or too romantic just a nice caring thought. Our wedding was an elegant black and white wedding with red accents here and there. Hopefully I am on the right track and this will be accepted well. Let me know what you think. I can always change the order. I am sending everything in case she doesn’t want to get together. I am not expecting anything in return.


Honestly I think it sounds good. It's not over the edge and if the card is more toward humorous or "nice" it sounds like just the right touch. I would also suggest that you make it clear you want nothing in return--just say it out loud: "I want to be clear about something okay? I'm not doing this because I want something...it's just because kind of for old times' sake. Let's have one night of fun." Likewise you may want to make some personal plans for you IN CASE she says no or has other plans. She *may* have realized the anniversary is in a few days and thought "I better do something to distract myself!" and made plans (like for a half gallon of ice cream, a half bottle of wine, and Bridgett Jones!). You may want to make plans for yourself so you can commemorate in a way that is true to you. 



> Thank you everyone for the help support and suggestions.


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## jar

Affaircare

I know what you are saying. Thank you for reminding me how much worst off I could be. I new right after I wrote my last post that it was the wrong mode of thinking.

Tonight wife and I are supposed to talk on the phone for a while. I hope it goes well. I asked her to take it easy on me and to keep the conversation open like our talk on Saturday.

I am ok with moving forward on our home. However I have some resentment and anger today. I feel like I have lost everything that was near and dear to my heart. Wife…family…home…possessions….future plans…a pretty good life style. …It is tough to think about. I know my situation could be worst but it has been a major upheaval.

All this is happening because my wife decided she was unhappy and instead of talking to me and making me understand and doing something constructive about the situation like an adult. She decided she was more important. She justified to herself that it is ok to have an affair. Now she has decided for the both of us that it is best to sell our home. All because she is not happy. She has made it clear she is going to get out of our house weather I am on board or not. With out a thought or a care about how I would feel.

I feel like wife has thrown me under the buss and has essentially told me to give up everything so that she can be happy with out a care about me or my feelings. 

The house is just another example. She has completely destroyed the life that we built up around us instead of making efforts to change our life for the better together. I am angry. I hope someday she realizes what she has done to me and what I have done for her. I don’t want to keep score here but I have essentially got nothing in return for any of my efforts. But dragged through the mud and betrayed in every way by the person I love the most and trusted the most.

Sorry to sound bitter. I woke up this way this morning. I hate feeling this way. Not how I normally am. I hope it passes soon.

JAR


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## turnera

{{{jar}}}

Better days ahead, man. Whichever way it turns out.


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## Affaircare

Jar~

It's understandable that you feel that way because it's *true*. You have given up a ton with not much in return right now. But now I bet you have a CRYSTAL CLEAR understanding why we say that Plan A/Carrot & Stick is for a limited amount of time: because no human being could keep that up indefinitely. We all like to say that we love our spouses "unconditionally" but the fact of the matter is that if they aren't kindling and they keep extinguishing, eventually that flame of love *does* go out. 

Furthermore, I bet you REALLY understand why we say its so important to have Mutual United Understandings in everything you do with your marriage partner. Granted, I believe there is some degree of disloyal dizzyness fog going on, but your wife was not enthusiastic about the house...or at least she isn't now. It was a constant reminder to her of giving up and giving in and not really agreeing but not speaking up about it. 

If you just utterly "give in" to her way, you'd resent it and eventually it has the potential to grow and destroy the marriage! So literally from this day forward, you two stick at it until both of you are enthusiastic, which in Thinker-Speak would be: "I have evaluated it from all sides and the conclusion is one likely to end in happiness and success" LOL  In Feeler-Speak that would be "Oh I hadn't thought of THAT option! I *LIKE* it! I actually could DO that! Wow yes, I agree to that!"

For today, I would suggest journaling or doing a heavy workout to let out some of that pent up angry energy. I would also suggest doing some thing or activity for yourself that is caring for you and is somewhat of a "treat" or something special. The idea is to care for yourself a little and remind yourself you can have fun and joy in your life.


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## jar

Tearing up pretty bad right now. Not really sure why.

Just talked to wife for about a half hour. Call went fine we were very nice and civil.

She liked my letter to mediator but felt it was too harsh she is going to send a simple we will not be back to mediation letter to mediator from us both.

Talked a lot about our dog. She wants me to take her for a long weekend the week after next I agreed to it. I imagine she has something to do that weekend doesn’t sound like she is headed to her family’s place. Maybe she and OM are doing something. Fowling weekend is a big party at her family. Another fam event I will be missing.

We talked about the house I told her I was in 110 % on it. Still uneasy and sad but in. I told her I would help get it ready to sell. Joint 50/50 deal. She went on and on about the things that needed to be done in the house. Her and her mom picked out some paint colors to paint a bathroom and bed room.

She said why do you want to be involved all the sudden. She was like this doesn’t mean that we are getting back together. I just responded I know. I told her I was angry before and needed time to cope on my own. I told her now I feel like I am basically ready the best I can be.

I have an old classic jeep that is restored. It is something that is from my childhood. She wanted to know if I was selling it. I explained no. She offered to put the cover back on for me.

She wanted to know if I made a decision on the boat. She wants out of the payment bad. I explained I hadn’t. She had to make sure I realized she wouldn’t be contributing to the winter storage fees.

We agreed to a date and time to meet with realtor. I recommended we meet and go over to-do lists plans etc some time. We also talked about a selling price which is more than our mortgage.

She made no mention of our anniversary this week.

She seems to be trying to unload the dog on me now. She is saying things like I don’t know if I will be able to have a dog in the future. Our last time we talked she was saying she would do what ever was best for the dog. I just said we would talk about that when the time comes.

She said once we get house on market and projects done we would deal with the rest of the stuff as in divorce.

She said she would be working on house this weekend and asked if I would join her. She said I didn’t have to since it is short notice.

We talked a lot about dog etc. Just general chit chat. She wanted know how I was feeling at a few points during the call. I explained I was really sad and not fully ready for this.

At one point she said I appreciate this.

About10 min after our call. She emailed mediator and realtor and also sent me this note.

Hi JAR 
Thank you again for your phone call tonight, I appreciate that even though you are hesitant you are willing to work with me. So, the two colors are called colorplace. 
Bedroom: Aruba Blue
Bathroom: Stingray
If you do not like those colors and have a different idea please let me know, my mom and I felt this would go best with what is already part of the house. 
Also, I will drop dog off at daycare on the 27th of august which is a Friday. Please let me know ahead of time if you want her longer than the weekend so I can make sure she has enough food if not you can drop her off on Monday and I will pick her up. Just let me know before that Friday so I can get the food for you, but you don’t need to tell me now, if you want her longer and decide that over the weekend then that’s cool you will just have to get her food for her yourself. 
If you are not ready to work at the house this weekend that is understandable and I appreciate your need of space. I will be doing some stuff around the house so if you want to stop by feel free; there is no pressure with this. If you are just not ready to work on the house this weekend I understand, this is hard and very emotional, since this is both of our first home. 
Just let me know by Friday 
Wife.


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## Affaircare

Hey JAR~

I'm going to post a big, long (typical) AC reply tomorrow but for tonight did you notice something? 

1) She's responding to you in a way that is not hostility. She *was* pure venom seeing evil in your every move, and now she's reacting as if she feels a little better and maybe even has some hope. She invited you over and indicates some willingness to spend time together now, so take advantage of that and keep building on it.

2) She is now setting up things that you can work on as partners. The letter to the mediator was a good step--you got to "vent" and she got to be the reasonable one and soften it to a business-like tone. She's suggesting colors for painting. Do you like them? If you do, cool let her know. If you don't, cool also let her know that and invite her to go together to slightly adjust the colors so you're working together. She talking about the Realtor and you got to bring up not selling until the price exceeds the mortgage...but you're working on taking some steps together. Keep on with the teamwork as this is SUPER HUGE. 

I would suggest that you tell her thank you for talking to you, thank you for opening up a little and being honest, thank you for working on this together so you are a team, and thank you for being civil. From her point of view, she's taking a risk on being hurt again. Also if you honestly can not stop over this weekend to help with projects, I do suggest at least stopping by with some lemonades (for the girls who are working hard) or something along that line. 

Now Jar, I do realize you're likely feeling sad, sentimental, possibly a bit angry at losing something that was near and dear to your heart and felt important to you, but Mother Teresa said it best and I can not do better than her:

People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous; Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway.​
In my lifetime I had a 4000 sq.ft. custom-designed home with in-ground pool and a million dollar business--I was a happily married wife, good mom, successful businesswoman, president of the PTA...the whole nine yards...and in one day I lost that all to a restaurant assistant manager with four kids by four men all born out of wedlock. Do the right thing anyway.


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## jar

Thank you affair care

I am feeling a bit better today. I sent wife a thank you note this morning like you recommended. I also told her the door was open and that I was willing to talk anytime.

Spa gift certificate and anniversary card are in the mail. Card is real light hearted. Flowers will be delivered to her after work tomorrow.


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## tamara24

jar said:


> Thank you affair care
> 
> I am feeling a bit better today. I sent wife a thank you note this morning like you recommended. I also told her the door was open and that I was willing to talk anytime.
> 
> Spa gift certificate and anniversary card are in the mail. Card is real light hearted. Flowers will be delivered to her after work tomorrow.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Sorry, trying to figure my mobile with this thread. Good job, Jar. Useevry excuse you @can to be with her. It may seem decieving but she is hurt and the more you show her that you are not that same man that hurt her, you will have a better chance to win her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

I asked wife out for pizza and beer tonight. We will see if she accepts my invitation.

Sunday I plan to head home again and help with the house.

JAR


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## jar

Hey Wife

Our anniversary is today and I would hate to completely ignore it. Would you like to meet me for pizza. It might be a nice break away from the stress of life.

I am thinking around 6:30

Love
JAR


JAR
I know what today is and I'm not Sure I can handle dinner out to celebrate something that I don't want anymore, plus I don't get home till almost five cuz I work till four and dog would be alone all night too.
Wife


Hey Wife

I was just thinking of it as a night out together between friends. Not a celebration. The offer is open if you change your mind. I am flexible on the time and the place.

Love
JAR


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## jar

Wife 10:30 
I’m sorry I don’t want you to think I meant that email in a harsh way if you want to go out to eat as friends I could try to do that I just don’t want you to get the wrong idea and I am worried about dog because I would half to travel back and forth (about 30 min one way)

Jar 10:30
I am flexible with the time and place. We could meet closer to the house. Let’s keep conversation light no businesses talk tonight. How about we meet at 7 at the pizza place near our house.

Wife 10:50 
Ok that is fine

Wife 12:05
Ok I am still hesitant I mean this is our weeding anniversary day if we go out tonight for me it still feels like it’s about that.

Jar 12:30 
Well think it over and let me know by 5 no pressure.


It seems wife cant decided what to do. I am glad I sent card and flowers. I think she will back out. 

Jar


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## turnera

She just wants to make sure you are not going to take this as a hint that she chooses you. You're doing fine.


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## Affaircare

If she's worried about the dog and "going out" for your anniversary, why not offer to bring pizza to the house to eat in, and bring a funny movie like "The Bounty Hunter" (aka Jen Aniston: a down-on-his-luck bounty hunter, gets his dream job when he is assigned to track down his bail-jumping ex-wife). It does not end with a bunch of romance, and it's funny so you'll be laughing, and its a guy and his ex and they turn out okay...and it's sort of recent.


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## jar

I will mention if I hear back from her. 

She is really indecisive on this one.


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## Tanelornpete

> She is really indecisive on this one.


Take that as a good thing - she is considering options, which works to your benefit, regardless of the content or object of the indecisiveness. Slows things down, gives you time.


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## jar

Jar

I am sorry I just cant today perhaps Sunday we can do lunch after working on the house. Sorry if im disappointing I just don’t feel like it’s the best idea 

Wife

Wonder if OM has anything to do with this.?


Oh well we will see what tomorrow brings.


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## turnera

Huh? SHE asked if OM has anything to do with it?


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## jar

Sorry to confuse you

I wonder if the OM has something to do with it.


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## Affaircare

Honestly my guess (and I mean GUESS) is yes and no. 

Is he coming over tonight? Did he talk her out of it? Does she have other plans or an evil plot to do something just to hurt you? Probably no. 

Does she think the way she does because she had an affair with someone else (meaning very disloyal foggy and "it's over")? Probably yes. 

Based on the fact that she did consider it and did talk to you and was not all blaming and mad, my guess is that she's afraid it's an anniversary and you'll see it as "we're getting back together" or maybe try to make a move or something...and she's not up for that. Thus I would suggest saying something like: 

"I'm disappointed because I was hoping to enjoy your company. Since my species happens to eat I thought possibly your species also happened to .. you know..eat and thought we could do that sitting at the same table.  But I do understand you don't want to send a mixed message and I appreciate your honesty."

The idea here is to show her...DEMONSTRATE...that she is safe to disagree or not have it go "your way" and you won't yell or pitch a fit or give her guilt, etc.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

At this point I'd respect her wishes and not push anything. She has opened up a great deal to you in the past week, and it is not worth a huge setback. Her suggestion of Sunday is positive and that is right around the corner. Keep things positive and tell her you will see her this weekend. 

If she saiys you did too much with the card, flowers and spa cert. (you don't want to scare her off) - just tell her they were to remind her that the door is open to work on the marriage AND to thank her for the work she has put into the house.

Tomorrow, the anniversary reminder is over and you can refocus on other things. I know it is hard...


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## tamara24

You can also remind her,you were not just my wife,you were my best friend and I would like to have dinner with her. She will be more willing to go.
Se is still confused,give her time....good job!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Also consider doing a 180 so that she can see you CAN live without her.


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## jar

Hi Guys 

Thanks for the recommendations. I took a drive after work to clear my head. I kind of figured she wouldn’t accept my invitation. It is not bothering me to much.

It was nice she did think about it at least.

I haven’t heard from her since. I know she is home by now so she should have received the flowers and card. I image that today was a lot for her to take.

We will see what the weekend brings.

JAR


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## Affaircare

Your wife is ISFJ, right? Her personality type: 

Doesn't pay enough attention to their own needs
Is unlikely to express their needs, which may cause pent-up frustrations to build inside
and she has a potential weakness to: 

Wrongly suspect others of having hidden motives or agendas
So while you may want to do something kind and thoughtful for yourself, when you do contact her, you may want to ask if she took time for herself and her own needs...and re-iterate that you had no hidden motive. Yes, from YOUR point of view you do wish you two could repair your marriage, but that's not hidden. And you aren't pressing for that agenda "to happen." Right now you recognize that extreme damage was done and what needs to happen now, whether you two ever get together again or not, is for you to learn about her, learn how to treat her well, learn how to listen and let her talk, and learn how to have fun with each other again. 

Now for you: 










Do you, JAR, take Mrs.JAR to be your wedded wife to live together in marriage? Do you promise to love, comfort, honor and keep her For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health And forsaking all others, be faithful only to her so long as you both shall live?

Might be kind of a good night to renew those vows even if it's just to yourself tonight.


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## iamnottheonlyone

That was very nice of you. You really are a gentleman. She can't see what she is missing.


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## Affaircare

An anniversary song for you:

He Ain't the Leaving Kind

You may want to look up the lyrics.


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## unbelievable

Ten years is a long investment. If it were me (and I were strong enough to pull it off) I'd simply give her the room to make her decision. Most of these flings don't pan out. When it doesn't, she'll realize what she had and come back. Once that happens, I'd make a reunion conditional on some very firm boundary rules and I'd insist on some marital counseling. Trust has been violated and it's not easy to get back. In any case, I'd resist the temptation to bring another woman into the equation or to rush to make a permanent legal divorce for at least a year or so.


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## jar

I just got a very nice text from wife thanking me for flowers and the card.

Makes me feel a bit better.

Thank you all for the kind words and the support

JAR


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## jar

Just looking at face book tonight...Looks like wife added OM back as her face book buddy last night....She deleted him this past winter.

Really upsets me. Still wondering if Affair is going on or not. I can’t believe she did that....So wrong....Such a stupid little thing to get upset over. It was only our anniversary last night....No bige

Feel like she chose him over me again.

Sigh…..
JAR


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## tamara24

Jar,
You knew this was not going to be easy but the more time you spend with her,you will see results.she is hurt and you are the bad guy for now. You are also confusing her feelings with all the little fuzzies. She is afraid to get get close to you,because she does not want to experience that pain again. She is wondering, why is he doing this now, why didn't he do it before? Is he playing games? You need to focus on the postive. You will see her this weekend, make the effort. The OM will not like her spending all this time with you so you need to make a huge impression every chance you get to show her the man you have become. Calm her fears and listen as you have. You are doing a good job, stay positive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jessi

hi there jar, 
tamara is spot on with her thoughts, this should be your plan along with a lot of patience and no expectations for the time being.......
when you have a weak moment and think things aren't working out in a positive way........re-direct your thoughts to the bigger picture and realize each day is a stepping stone to that.......
((hugs))


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I agree JAR, keep those eyes on the big picture, and EXPECT setbacks. It will not magically unfold as you would like it to in your mind's eye. And, PLEASE balance the actions/words of love with letting her have space to think about things. As my shrink told me, my H is not on my time table. I can see that over time he has listened to me and reflected on what I say. May not happen the next day (as we would like it to), but over a course of weeks/months, it can.

Pace yourself with the gestures of love, but ALWAYS appear to be the perfect H to her (we all have moments in recovering a marriage that we aren't perfect, but try - OK.) Just stay positive and keep a balance - you want to live with her, but can live without her (not my words, but true.)


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## jar

Thank you for the positive words. I was really down in the dumps the other day.

Things went really well yesterday. 

I arrived mid morning. Wife and I talked about what we wanted to get accomplished and inspected the projects. Then we headed off to the store to buy paint and supplies.

We took my car and road together. We picked out the paint together and the supplies that we needed and had a few laughs in the process.

We then had to go to another store to pick up a few more things. While there wife helped me pick out a few things I needed for my place. 

While standing in line wife made a few interesting comments. She told me I had a nice tan going. She said it must be from all the boating and the beach. She doesn’t have a tan at all right now. She then asked if I had changed the brand of soap I was using. I said no. She explained she noticed dog had a cologne like smell when I returned her and she said that she noticed that it was me who was smelling good. I shrugged it off and said I got some new cologne for my self a few weeks ago. She just looked at me and said you bought your self cologne I cant believe it. I said hey I was trying a few new things

While at the store we ran into the people that use to clean our home and had a nice chat. It was a bit strange.

We then went home and went to work. We spent the day painting a bedroom. Overall things went well and we got a lot done. Wife said she was really tired and out of steam these days.

Wife and I over all had a good day we teased one another some and had a few laughs. Wife was covered in paint by the end of the day. She even stepped on the paint can lid and got paint all over herself very funny. She didn’t complain to much either. She normally hates this kind of thing with a passion.

We both agreed that we weren’t sure we liked the color we picked out. Butt were going to go with it.

Tonight I am going to return home to help finish painting the trim and the doors in the room.

So through out the day wife made some interesting comments.

She explained she didn’t plan to own a home again for a very long time to much work.

She was really tired and worn out keeping up the house

She felt cooped up the past two months and since I was taking dog this coming weekend she was thinking she would take a day to herself and go shopping some where. This might be a good opportunity to invite her over to my place or do something together. Sounds like she hasn’t been getting out much.

Wife made a point of showing the door jamb she fixed up in our bedroom and explained to me how she did it. I told her I was impressed and it looked good.

Wife thanked me for not delivering flowers to her work. At one point she asked me if I had requested the arrangement. I explained I had asked for some white lilies since they were her favorite. She then said you do realize the flowers I had delivered to the house were almost identical to the bouquet she carried on our wedding day. I winked and said oh really. I think she appreciated the sentiment she couldn’t help but to smile when we were talking about this. 

She asked why I had gotten them for her. I simply said that I wanted to get her flowers because it was our anniversary and it might be our last one. 

At the end of the day I told wife she should really take a day to herself and relax and go to the spa and use the gift certificate. She said I really cant except that form you know. I said you have been working hard and I can see that you need to relax so go have fun and enjoy. She said I am not sure I can do that knowing that the certificate was from me...

So overall a good day no talk of divorce and it seems she is noticing a few things about me. It felt like a typical normally day like we were still a couple. On the way home I couldn’t help but think we still make a good team when it comes to getting things done.

Jar


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## iamnottheonlyone

Very nice!


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Gotta love a good day!!!!!!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Affaircare

Good job, JAR!! :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:

Regarding her certificate, I would recommend telling her: "Think of it as if a friend gave it to you...a friend who noticed you were stressed and needed some relaxation...someone who is your buddy and who cares about you enough to have your best interests in mind." The idea is that right now she's tying some of you with "the guy who wants me to be in love with him and pressures me for love by sending me gifts" and some of you with "the guy I laugh with and have fun with who smells good and gave me a gift." So trust me, the one she needs right now is the one who is her friend, who laughs with her and whom she associates with good stuff.


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## jar

I went back home again tonight to work on painting.
I made sure to touch base with her during the day to let her no what time I would get home tonight and to mention that I enjoyed the day.
I also made sure to let her know I was on the way when I left work. It is over an hour drive to get back home.
I got home she had started with out me. She was fairly quite. I asked if she was hungry and offered to order take out. She said she had already eaten. I was really hoping to come home to find some take out or dinner made. Since I was going way out of my way to make it home to help out. So I found a few frozen burritos in the freezer. I was a bit disappointed.
Anyway for the first hour she was quite and complaining how much she hated painting. I just said I could see how you feel that way because I feel the same right now. I was having a tough time making small talk. The last 45 min I was there. We started talking more. She told me mostly about family stuff etc. I made sure to show I was interested and asked questions. We also started laughing and clowning around as well. Turned out to be a nice evening. She even stood on the porch and gave me a wave as I drove away.
I think she was checking me out again because she mentioned that I had a great tan going.
I told her I could come back again on wed night for a bit.
Thanks Affair care
JAR


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## bestplayer

jar said:


> I went back home again tonight to work on painting.
> I made sure to touch base with her during the day to let her no what time I would get home tonight and to mention that I enjoyed the day.
> I also made sure to let her know I was on the way when I left work. It is over an hour drive to get back home.
> I got home she had started with out me. She was fairly quite. I asked if she was hungry and offered to order take out. She said she had already eaten. I was really hoping to come home to find some take out or dinner made. Since I was going way out of my way to make it home to help out. So I found a few frozen burritos in the freezer. I was a bit disappointed.
> Anyway for the first hour she was quite and complaining how much she hated painting. I just said I could see how you feel that way because I feel the same right now. I was having a tough time making small talk. The last 45 min I was there. We started talking more. She told me mostly about family stuff etc. I made sure to show I was interested and asked questions. We also started laughing and clowning around as well. Turned out to be a nice evening. She even stood on the porch and gave me a wave as I drove away.
> I think she was checking me out again because she mentioned that I had a great tan going.
> I told her I could come back again on wed night for a bit.
> Thanks Affair care
> JAR


..."I told her I could come back again on wed night for a bit......"

come back on wed night for a bit of what ? make sure she doesn't get confused .




Best of luck


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## jar

I went back home last night to help out with the painting projects.

I emailed wife a head of time to make sure we were still on for tonight. I made sure to tell her when I would arrive and depart and asked if I could pick up some dinner for her on the way home. She said she was going to eat with out me.

So I picked up my self a really nice dinner from this fancy bistro place on my way. I also got my self a nice piece of chocolate cake and a crème burele for wife. Crème is her favorite.

Wife had started painting with out me. She had gotten a lot done. She wasn’t very talkative again. 

Couple of things happened through out the evening that really bothered me and as a result I couldn’t wait to get out of the house. Wife would ask me these very direct things like. Lawn needs mowed when you are doing it or having it done. When are we painting the bathroom? I explained when we finished the room we were in. She went on and on about realtor coming and putting house on market after we meet with realtor. I said we can wait a few days or a week until we are done with project. She asked me how long I am taking dog for this weekend. I guess what is bothering me is she was being direct with me and bossy. The one thing she should know about me is when she acts like this makes me very defiant and it doesn’t work. Plus I don’t live there drove an hour and fifteen minutes each way to help out. I would think she could be a bit more tactful by saying can you help me do this. Or when do you think you can work on that. Or what are you thinking the plan might be. I guess she could have been a little softer and easy on me. 

To top it all off at the end of the night after 9pm and I had a long drive a head of me. I had reculked the bath tube at her request and didn’t pick up my supplies in the bathroom because I wasn’t done. We had also done some painting in there to. She informed me that I need to pick up my mess before I leave. However she wasn’t picking up the painting supplies she had left out in there because she want done. I was also trying to load my car up with the dos things for this weekend so wife wouldn’t have to do that tomorrow.

I think she realized she had annoyed me when I left I got a quick little thanks and that was it. I guess I feel like I am going way out of my way at the moment and do not see any appreciation from wife. It also bugs me that I feel like I was being bossed around. I am sure she didn’t mean it that way. Just slightly annoyed.

On the other hand therapy is going well and I am down to seeing therapist only once a month. I am feeling better about myself and things. Feel like me old self and I feel more centered in life. Overall I feel really good.

Therapist says wife is trying to make a clear line in the sand about things so she doesn’t send a mixed message. Therapist says I shouldn’t get my hopes up and to be careful.

One other thing. Mediator sent us a note yesterday saying she had sent all our confidential records. Mediator actually had the nerve to say we owed her another 100 for her services. I have no intention of paying her that money.


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## Affaircare

> ...
> I emailed wife a head of time to make sure we were still on for tonight. I made sure to tell her when I would arrive and depart and asked if I could pick up some dinner for her on the way home. She said she was going to eat with out me.
> 
> So I picked up my self a really nice dinner from this fancy bistro place on my way. I also got my self a nice piece of chocolate cake and a crème burele for wife. Crème is her favorite.
> 
> Wife had started painting with out me. She had gotten a lot done. She wasn’t very talkative again.


It's nice that you got the creme brulee for your wife, but it sounds to me like you are having a few expectations. You maybe hoped she'd make dinner and/or the two of you would eat together. You hoped she'd be all appreciative over the creme brulee. You hoped she'd wait for you to paint. You hoped she'd be talkative and joke around with you. 

And when she didn't do the things you'd hoped for, things which you never told her you hoped for, you felt bad and were a little upset. So I see two things here: 

1) Independence--When your wife makes her own dinner, eats on her own, and starts to paint on her own, that is her way of asserting some independence. She's saying, "This is not a date, JAR." So I think she's just trying to show you she's being business-like and not to give you a "mixed message."

2) Expectations--When you expect or hope for certain things and do not tell your wife, you are setting yourself and her up for failure. If you hope she'll eat with you, speak out loud and say, "I would like it very much if we could eat together. Would you be willing to eat with me?" She may say "no" but then at least you know where you stand. Same for "I would be happy to get us both dinner as a thank you from me for working on this project together. Would you mind if I get dinner for both of us?" The idea being that it honestly may not be okay with her! So speaking your expectations/hopes out loud shows her respect and gives her the chance to reach MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING, not just her getting what she wants and not just you getting what you want. 



> Couple of things happened through out the evening that really bothered me and as a result I couldn’t wait to get out of the house. ...I guess what is bothering me is she was being direct with me and bossy. I would think she could be a bit more tactful by saying can you help me do this. Or when do you think you can work on that. Or what are you thinking the plan might be. I guess she could have been a little softer and easy on me.


So you would like her to reach mutual agreement with you and ask about it in a tactful way? When you feel like she is being "bossy" why don't you say that out loud rather than harboring resentment? For example, WTFS: 

*When *you ask me things in a bossy way
I *think *"Hey I'm an adult here too and I do not like being bossed around" 
I *feel *a little defensive and like I'm less than you
*So may I ask* if you'd be willing to ask me respectfully when this or that would be done or ask for my opinion? 



> (as part of the quote above)The one thing she should know about me is when she acts like this makes me very defiant and it doesn’t work. Plus I don’t live there drove an hour and fifteen minutes each way to help out.


JAR, you know how part of your work right now is to end the affair (if there is one) and to work on yourself and ending the Love Extinguishers? Well there's a big one right there. You pointed it out about yourself. When she acts in a way that you perceive as "bossy" you become defiant (your word). Well, do you put "defiant" and "loving" together? Does being treated defiantly communicate care and lovingkindness to you? My guess is that it doesn't to her either! Plus it may very well be that she's trying to show some independence or trying to be "all efficient" and you are perceiving it as "bossy." So one personal thing you can work on is stating what you want out loud, and another would be to work on ending the Love Extinguisher of being defiant. Even if she honestly, actually is being b*tchy and cranky, that does not give you justification to treat her in a way that hurts her back. You can state your boundary around you, walk away, or make a request--but treating her badly is a choice too and it is one that's contributed to harming your marriage. 

So this week I suggest that you make a note in your calendar of every time you feel like she's being bossy or you want to be defiant, and then write in your calendar a WTFS that would address that issue. 



> I think she realized she had annoyed me when I left I got a quick little thanks and that was it. I guess I feel like I am going way out of my way at the moment and do not see any appreciation from wife. It also bugs me that I feel like I was being bossed around. I am sure she didn’t mean it that way. Just slightly annoyed.


Okay...  another issue here a little bit. Are you aware that many/most disloyals, when they go off an have their affair, not only ditch their loyal spouse and kids and run off with their lover, they also wipe out the bank account, run up the credit cards, and pretty much leave the loyal in the lurch financially...as in, "Don't care about whether you can afford the mortgage and might lose the house! I'm outta here. Bye bye!" Many loyal spouses LOSE their jobs and their houses because the disloyal doesn't give a rip. 

On the other hand, your wife has hung in there, tried to care for the home, and is trying to get it good looking so it can be sold for equity at least and maybe for a profit, and you are acting as if you are doing your wife a "favor" by helping her take care of your property! She could have dumped it all on you, you know. She still could! I'm not saying it's a good choice or a nice one, but she could pack up tomorrow, tell you "You know what? I've had it, you deal with this sh*t!" and move to the big city never to be heard from again. 

My point here is that you feel entitled to appreciation for something that is your responsibility as a home owner to take care of. I highly doubt that your wife sees it as "doing her a favor" because it's not only her burden to bear--even though you don't live there, it is partly yours as well. Plus you've said before that she has mentioned that she feels like you've put "all the work" on her. Thus, just based on putting these two things all together, I'll bet you that she sees it as if you are finally not dumping the whole burden on her and taking some of the responsibilities that should have been yours in the first place. 

Now, JAR, I'm not saying this is a sane or loving view--just that I bet that's the way she sees it. 

Thus to be utterly honest with you, I think it is a little unrealistic to be expecting ANY kind of acknowledgement or appreciation from your disloyal spouse. Whether she's active or the activity is dying down, right now she's still pretty fog-bound. Furthermore, just a few weeks ago she was splitting you entirely evil, looking for the bad intent of everything you said or did, and blaming you for EVERYTHING and every time she was anything less than thrilled. To go from "You are the devil incarnate" to "Wow I appreciate all you've done for me" is really a pretty huge leap, and I don't honeslty think it's too reasonable. If I were you, I think it would be more realistic to hope for "no hostility" and some civility...AND THAT'S ALL! 

In order to get more--things like wanting to eat with you, having fun with you, enjoying your presence, and some day appreciating what you've done--you will have to gradually, over time, demonstrate the new ways you have learned to treat her and earn/rebuild those things. Right now, even if the affair were to be entirely over, she would still think: "I do NOT want to go back to the way it was."


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## turnera

Wow, awesome post! Print this one out and read it once a day!


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## cmf

AC- That hit home with me too!


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## jar

Affaircare thank you…..Once again you have put things in perspective for me again.
Things could be way worse than they are. In just a short time things have turned around a lot. Just a few weeks ago I was the evil enemy now not so much. 
I was really thinking about some of your post and realized I am keeping score right now. But the truth is the things I am doing are just as much for me as my wife. It is my home as well. Thank you for reminding me of that.
When I get defiant I don’t think that I got mean or treat my wife terrible. I just tend to shutdown and hold in my feelings. I realize that I need to share them with wife. 
When 
Think
Feel 
May I ask? 
I some how forgot about this mantra. I need to putt this in practice. It will keep me from bottling up my frustrations and hopefully teach my wife more about how I feel and hopefully she will see where I am coining from.
Assumptions…I got to be careful here. My wife makes assumptions and assumes things all the time in regards to me. I feel like these fall into the disrespectful judgment category. 
I am basically doing the same thing by hoping to have dinner with her etc. I am setting myself up for frustration. I need to communicate with her and tell her what I would like.
Thank you for posting and reminding me of these things. Carrot and stick….This helped a lot …
I have the dog for the weekend. It is nice to spend some time with her. I am down in the dumps a bit…I have some haunting thoughts today. I wonder if she is spending the weekend with the OM.
Thanks again
JAR


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## tamara24

About the wife making assumptions....

I think we all do this about your partner. For instance my husband requested that I tell him what I want him to helpout with around the house. He has ADHD, so he will say ok, I can do that and then he gets totally side tracked. 

I get totally mad! Why? Because, now I have to go back and say you need to do this and I feel like I am being a b----! When I explained to him that I hate repeatedly asking, he replied, no I don't think you are a b--- for telling me again. Sometimes I just forget.

I assumed that it upsets him to be told over and over, that is our problem, now can you see how it can relate to you? Maybe she ASSUMES by having dinner with you while doing the house is going to send you mixed messages. Maybe she ASSUMES that y telling you that you are a great guy, you are thinking all the problems are over. Now relate this to when you were at home. Were there things there you ASSUMED of her, maybe she always prepared the meals, did the laundry, or maybe said one thing and just ASSUMED she knew you meant the other. 
We women are emotional creatures even if we hold it in. She can assume just about anything and you have to keep that communication going so when she does assume, she is assuming correctly. Keep talking to her!

Yes, it would be hard not to keep score, but right now just focus on what you are trying to create in the long run. A HEALTHY marraige is the long term focus and you are making a new platform.
Think of it as a house. If you built the house on cement that had not been mixed properly, in a few months after movng in, you may not see the cracks because of the carpeting. You assumed it was new cement you were fine.Now you have water coming up and you have to rebuild from the bottom up. Do it right this time.Start with a solid base this time so the cracks never have a chance. Don't assume anything at this point. You are tearing down the walls and rebuilding at this point. If you don't communicate with the contractor, how are they to know exactly what you want? be specific, do not assume, and make sure they know exactly what you need. Same thing applies to your wife.

Think of how far you have come! Just a few short weeks ago, you were hesitant to even call her, now you have goten her to laugh, give her some warm fuzzies and started working as a team. I would say that is progress! Keep that chin up and start thinking when you are going to see her next? Can you compliment her on something like her hair, how she smells? Something personal? Nothing heavy, keep it light but let her know that you have noticed her.You are doing a great job!


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## jar

This gives me some new things to think about. I am going home tomorrow afternoon to continue working on some painting and to also mow the lawn and take care of some landscaping stuff.
JAR


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## jar

I am so disappointed in myself today.

Realtor contacted wife and I. She wanted to come to our house today to get some of the formalities out of the way, take photos, and talk with us. 

It wasn’t on the agenda for the weekend. I was to be back home to work on house at 2pm today. 

Wife emailed back said it was ok with her if realtor stopped by. 

So I dropped what I was doing and had to head home a few hours a head of schedule. The meeting went well. The realtor loves our home and the improvements we have done. She believes that it will show well. She also painted a bit of a bleak picture as well on the housing market. Not a big surprise. But we all came to an agreeable price to start marketing the house for. It went well.

Although it left me a bit emotional.

Realtor left and I got up from table and went to my car to unload the dog’s things. Wife asked if I was ok. I said not really it was really tough still for me to sell our home. Wife followed me to the car and gave me a little gift. She said don’t take this the wrong way but it is a thank you for agreeing to sell the house. It was a candle…A special candle that we both like and is a limited production one. We both have been on a mission for a few years to find another. I asked where did you find this. She said she had gone down to the coast shopping. It is a few hours drive. I asked if she spent the night there and she said no…I was like wow I can’t believe you found this. I thanked her…I was a bit surprised she went down that way. This was clue #1

So I went about my business in the garage getting the mower running. I was pretty sad and tearing up a bit…Wife came check on me and needed help getting dog’s invisible fence working again. She seemed concerned about me.

While in the garage I began to realize a few things

While realtor was there. Wife showed me the newly painted room all organized and put back together. It looked great I complimented her how impressed I was. She had even gotten a new bedspread and it looked amazing. Wife was proud of her self I could tell. I made a bit of a fuse about how nice it looked. Wife made a comment that she had just rushed around and finished before realtor arrived….Clue # 2 (Room been painted since wed night.) She also made a point of framing a map I have of the lake we took our vacation on last summer and hanging it up.

I realized that wife had left a few shopping bags in the kitchen with some of the things she had bought. I thought that is interesting wife is all about putting things away immediately when she gets home. Clue # 3

So I left the garage and headed up to our bedroom to change my clothes and put my lawn mowing shoes on and there it was Clue #4 and it was too much for me to take.

In the hamper in our closet was an unpacked duffle bag. It killed me. Wife hadn’t been home all weekend. She had been with OM…Broke my heart again….I felt like such a looser and a doormat. I had taken the dog for the weekend so she could relax for the weekend and she did some relaxing with the OM…Broke my heart...

At that point I went back downstairs I was tearing up really bad and explained that it was just to much for me to take emotionally today selling our house. I also explained I had seen the suite case in the hamper in the closet. I didn’t yell or anything. I just said it was too much to take and I need to head back to my place. She looked at me and just said but we have things to do today. I simply said I will be back again on Monday or Tuesday night to finish up half of the projects and I left….I waited a few minutes but she didn’t offer up any explanation or anything…As I was heading for the door she asked if I was going to say good bye to the dog and I said I am good. I didn’t raze my voice or anything or say anything terrible. I was just very teary eyed. 

I am really really disappointed in myself today. Felt like I shouldn’t have left and just sucked it up or done something differently but all of the sudden the affair was right back in my face.

We sent some texts back and forth and we agreed to hold off on our paintng project till tomorrow night and she said she would get the supplies we would need.

I assume that she took the OM with her shopping. Where she went for the day was always our place to go. We use to drive down there to hit the outlets or the beach for the day and be spontaneous. I remember the first time we went and did this during our dating days. So much fun.

I am so down in the dumps right now…I was looking forward to today…I feel like I am enabling the affair again…

I am hanging out in my office the rest of the day doing work trying to get my mind off things. I guess I got the proof I was wondering about today. The affair is still on.

JAR
:wtf::slap:


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## tamara24

Oh Jar,
Sorry to hear that. It must have been a tough day for you. 
First, she had an unpacked bag. So maybe she drove down with a friend or her parents? Also, even if it was the OM ,you know what your goals are even if she does not. 
Second, you still didn't lose your cool. You still communicated and she even texted you to make sure that you are o.k. There are still some feelings there even if they are buried. She cared enough to reach out to you by purchasing a candle that was specific to you and her. I would say she put some thought into that.
Third, remember the foundation? You are building on that. You have given warm fuzzies, she is giving warm fuzzies. She would not have done that just a few weeks ago. You are evolving for the better with her or without her. You will get through this one way or the other! She is also changing to see you in a different light. You were the enemy, now you are semi enemy/helpmate.
Think about the progress you have made first and foremost on yourself,then secondly with her. You have come along way. There are no guarentees, but you will have a better you regardless. Keep up your chin. It is really tough,but hang in there,you are not alone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Actually, I think you did VERY WELL. You reacted to what looks like her carrying on an affair IN YOUR FACE, you SHOWED her that her actions are killing you, and you gave her a consequence for flaunting that in your face - you left. I think it was perfect. 

Aside from you hurting, of course.


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## jar

Thanks Guys

I am feeling much better today. I was really caught off guard with things yesterday. 

Wife posted on facebook last night ......Ugh...Don’t know what that is suppose to mean or if it is directed at me.

I am heading back home tonight to work on the house...We will see how things go.

JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
So sorry you felt bad, I think you did what any feeling person would do....you showed you cared and you gave yourself space in order to deal with your feelings.....
Don't lose sight of the big picture here, this might be months down the road......put all the building blocks in place and sooner or later your house will be built......
Nothing matters at this point, you can always purchase a new home, anywhere as long as the two of you eventually end up together.......
The candle shows she still has something in there for you, the phone call shows both of you that she still is caring about your feeliings ........slowly things will change ......don't worry about the OM, he is in charge of screwing up his relationship with your wife, give him time.......he will.........
Be patient, be loving.....be the best Jar you can be.......
((hugs))


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## jar

The latest email from wife.

*******
Wife

I should be down to the house at about 6 or 6:30

I will see you then.

Sorry to put us a day behind schedule.

Love
JAR

*********
Hi JAR

I understand why you left yesterday, I didn't meant to hurt your feelings. I hope to have the bathroom taped by the time you get there. 
Also I was going to pick up a pizza , anything specific you would like on it?
Wife


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## turnera

Ah...so you DID do good! You SHOWED her that she is being a callous selfish person, and here you are bending over backwards to accommodate HER, *despite *what she has done to you. And leaving showed that you are not just a doormat.

And because you were being the opposite of a doormat, now she is asking YOU what you want on the pizza. That's why it is NEVER a good idea for a betrayed spouse to accept affair acts under their nose. If you have no respect for yourself, neither will she.

Just do me one favor, ok? Stop apologizing to her.


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## tamara24

Woo hoo! Jar, you did a great job! Stay cool tonight and don't be a doormat, see where it got you to keep coomunicating! So proud of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Woo hoo! Jar, you did a great job! Stay cool tonight and don't be a doormat, see where it got you to keep coomunicating! So proud of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

I agree with Turnera and tamara that you did a pretty good job. Faced with a situation where your emotions were getting the best of you, you made one of the best choice available to you in the situation: namely you left. Given the tools in your toolbox for coping with things, you KNEW you wanted to do better and not be the guy you used to be, and you KNEW you didn't want to get all emotional and say something you didn't mean. So given that, you did choose an option that was new, that kept her safe from your emotional state, and that prevented things from getting out of hand. So that is ALL GOOD! Very good!

Next for encouragement, I note that your wife asked you what you'd like (on the pizza) and did mention that she didn't mean to hurt you and understood how you'd feel that way. Again, this is also a very good sign and I hope it encourages you. She is reaching out to you and clearly is thinking of your feelings. 

Finally I would ask you to stop a moment and think about something. She had bags on the counter. She commented about rushing to get things ready for the realtor. And you saw a packed luggage bag. None of those things equal "She went to the coast with the other man." I would say that they equal "She returned just before having to ready for the realtor." And I would also say it equals "She had very recently spent the night overnight out of the house." What you don't know was if she went to a retreat by herself (for herself) or a divorce recovery weekend--or to a nunnery --or to visit her parents overnight--or to a friend's house. I think due to your heightened state of emotion you jumped to the worst possible conclusion. And you do know for a fact that she went to the coast and while she was there she was thinking of you, because she finally found and got for you that amazing candle! 

So JAR, please take courage. You are making progress and doing well, and next thing we're working on is assumptions!


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## jar

Just got back to my place from home. Things went well tonight. We got out bathroom painted. Wife had pizza waiting and all supplies ready to go.
Conversation was light and some laughing….Over all a good evening…We didn’t talk about yesterday.
Dint get to the lawn tonight. Mower still isn’t running yet.
For sale sine is in the front yard. It was a tough to see that one.
I will write more details tomorrow. Over all a very nice evening.
JAR


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## jar

When I got back to my place last night I sent wife a text saying I was back and that I had a nice evening with her.

This is what I had waiting for me in my inbox this morning.

I am glad you had a good time last night, I looked in at the bathroom this morning it looks great and the paint has dried nicely. I was wondering if you could give me an answer about dog this weekend today, I know it is short notice, but I wanted to stop into the kennel today after work to see if they had any room available if you can't take her. I will see you on Wednesday. 

So that was a nice email and unexpected. She didn’t mention how she felt about last night. I am not sure if I am going to take dog again this weekend. She is supposed to be at her families place for a big party all weekend.

Like I said conversation was light and we joked around a bit last night. At one point I got a paint roller rolled up the back of my leg so she got a paint brush across the arm. 

At one point she was looking in the mirror was covered in paint and was very sweaty and she said she looked like a mess. I said that I thought she looked good and that some of my best memories were of her and I doing things like this.

In terms of the affair and the little duffle bag that was in the laundry basket. I know she wasn’t with family this weekend and if she was with a friend or by herself I would think she would have offered up some information about that. The nunnery or weekend away by her self is a nice thought but I don’t think that is what happened. Either way I just tell my self the affair is still going on. Then I don’t sit here all day long playing the what if game in my head trying to convince my self that the affair is over. My gut tells me she was with him this weekend and that is what I am going with for now.

Before I left last night we both took the time to admire the room we just painted upstairs. It looks great and I think wife is proud of herself. She has it fixed up pretty nice. We also took the time to take a look at the map of the lake she had framed and we talked a while about all the areas we explored during our last vacation and pointed them out on the map.

She mentioned she was worn out and now she remembers why we got some people to help clean the house. The house cleaners was something I hired for her/us a few years back she was pretty against the idea at the time.

That’s all for now things seem to be going better between us.

I am still not sure if things will ever turn around but what we have going now is much better than layers and hostility.

Thank you for all the encouragement
JAR


----------



## Affaircare

JAR~

Please note I'm not saying that the affair isn't continuing--it's obviously the most likely scenario. But what I am saying is that all the things you saw don't NECESSARILY prove that and it is somewhat of an assumption. Since you are with her many nights a week now, what you can tell that is NOT an assumption is that she is no longer casting you "all evil" (and usually as long as the affair is ongoing, a disloyal will magnify the loyal's negatives), she is having fun with you and enjoying your company, and she is checking you out (so continue to look good and smell good). And even if you were to assume the worst (remember my "Worst Case Scenario" game), while she was with the OM what did she do? Talk about how evil you are? No, she thought of you and made the effort to get to that candle store! So you are making a MAJOR impact here!!!


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## jar

Things have turned around for the better between wife and me. Still see it as a long shot but we will see what happens in the future.
I agreed to take the dog for the weekend. Wife and I emailed one another a few times. I asked if I could call her tonight. She returned a playful email to me. It was nice.
She also texted me a few times tonight. At about 7 she texted me asking if I would be calling soon.
I wanted to talk with her about a few things tonight. I 
I wanted to tell her I wanted to be involved in all aspects of our home sale and that we should have open talks about everything and not assume things. Like this last minute realtor appointment over the weekend we did not discus it. Wife also contacted realtor and told them we were ready fro photo shoot. We didn’t talk about it first. I thought a lot about what I wanted to say but I don’t think it came out quite right. I wanted to let her know that I wanted to be a partner in this sale. I told her I wanted to drive the bus to and not just sick back and come along for the ride. Not sure how well she took the discussion. I want to be involved as also do my part.
Also a family friend is dying of cancer. She brought it up. This person only has a week or two left to live. I told her I wanted to do something for this person and her family and that it was on my mind all day. But was unsure what we could do….She didn’t have any recommendations….Wife a feeler and family and friends are really important to her. I figured she would have more to say but didn’t.
I tried to chat with her more but she wasn’t too talkative. I think I ruined the call with my first part of the conversation and I may have offended her. 
Oh well tomorrow is another day. Mowing lawn at house tomorrow night.
JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am paying attention. Nicely done.


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## turnera

Showing her support with the friend dying will be a big Love Bank filler for you. Ask her how she's feeling. Ask her if she wants you to take her to the hospital so she won't have to drive. After your friend dies (sorry), ask her to go with you and pick out a tree at the local nursery so you two can gift it to the family in her name. You can even dig a hole and plant it together. Big stuff!


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## jar

Last night was a bit of a stressful night.

I had to borrow a buddy’s trailer and the fender flew off on the interstate on the way to anthers friends’ house. I needed to borrow friend’s mower. Then back down to my house to mow lawn etc. 

Wife waited for me and we ate left over pizza. I thought that was nice.

Wife reassembled bathroom after the paint dried. It looks pretty good. 

It was a really hot muggy evening and I proceeded to tend to the outside of the house. Wife spent evening cleaning inside of house.

Wife finished cleaning before I was finished with outside and sat in kitchen and read book.

In the process I got wife’s car all covered in dust and grass so I washed it for her. I think she appreciated the effort. Like I said she was in the kitchen reading and I think kind of keeping an eye on me.

About 9 or so we went through the last of the paperwork for realtor. Today is the photo shoot. 

I was hot and sweaty and dirty so was wife I asked if I could take her out for an ice cream she wasn’t interested in going.

Wife looks a bit different to me these days. Friend’s wife commented that she ran into wife she thought wife had gained a bunch of weight. Maybe that is what it is. 

So after 9 I headed to friends house to return mower. Then had to drive all the way home. I finally got back to my place at about 11pm.

Wife commented on fb that house was clean yard was mowed and now she can relax.

We didn’t have too much one on one time since we were both doing different projects. I emailed wife yesterday trying to better explain where I was coming from about decisions about house and communication. Never heard back form her. I email wife often but here very little in return. At least she isn’t sending me nasty notes in return.

Wife family having a big party for her grams b day this weekend. I am taking the dog again. We have a few odds and end things to do together around the house still. I hope we can still find reason to spend one on one time together. I think it has been going much better.

Where not real social with neighbors but they were all out last night waving to me. Some struck up a conversation. None had the nerve to ask where I been.

So who knows what’s next between us. I hope I have got her thinking some. I am not sure I do? Not sure if she is questioning her decisions to sell home and get divorced. 
On a good note divorce has not come up for a couple of weeks.

I gave wife a bit of extra money for dog expensive this month it wasn’t much. She told me that I should have kept the money and put it towards my credit card bill. I realized she has been keeping an eye on my online statement. I thought this was interesting. There are some interesting charges on there.

I got invited to go to Vegas today. My brother cousin and I are going to meet up out there at the end of October. I never been so I am looking forward to it.

I wish I new what the future has in store for me and wife.

JAR


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## turnera

No matter what is in store in that regard, you have learned a LOT these past few weeks/months, and you can move forward a better man. We often don't get the path we planned, but perhaps a better one, if we keep our eyes open.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,
You are probably a better man now then when she married you. If she can't see that now it is her loss. ANY woman would be lucky to have you.


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## jar

Another really beautiful weekend coming our way. I am excited about that one. 


I sent wife a few emails today telling her about my cooking endeavor (mac and cheese) that went really bad. I don’t know how to cook anything what so ever. She emailed me back and had a few recommendations of things I could try in the future.

I really am missing my wife a lot today. We have been apart the entire summer.

I think the thing I miss the most right now is just being around her and spending time with her doing the little day to day things.


I also been studying my finances the past few evenings paying for rent and part of a mortgage is really got me stretched thin financially. I am a little stressed about that one.


Jar


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## turnera

I would make sure she knows that.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Next summer will be much better for both of us.


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## jessi

jar, 
you sound happier if that is possible considering your circumstances....
Just keep doing what you are doing and keeping a positive outlook on your life, good for you going to Vegas, it's fun there.....don't lose all your $$ though......it's easy to do...........
let her miss you Jar.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Next summer will be much better for both of us.


Count me in on that, too. I hope you all have a nice holiday weekend.


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## iamnottheonlyone

You bet!!


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## jar

Wouldn’t be nice if there was a way to predict the future. The magic 8 ball.
I have been much happier lately I am at a point where I know things will be ok in the future with our with out my wife. I am to the point where I know there is some one else waiting out there if that is what I choose. 
I hope you all have a great weekend and are able to relax and have some fun.
Thank you
Jar


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## jar

Nothing much to report from the weekend. 

Dog seems to have come down with kennel cough. Had to call vet and get a prescription for her over the weekend. Wife and I talked on the phone over the weekend about her. We also did some texting etc.

Dropped dog off at home wife asked for my help with a few things. A few simple things like change light bulb, move house for sale sign, plug invisible fence in. She asked nice so I helped.

I never mentioned how much I am missing her.

When I went to leave wife thanked me for helping and taking care of dog over weekend.

I also sent her gram a b day card wife went to her 85 b day party over the weekend.

I had an ok weekend. I spent the weekend doing a complete finance review. Budget is tighter than I thought. Not use to the lifestyle change yet. It has me worried some.

I am reading about love busters right now and more about personality stuff still. I have fallen a little behind on these things during the pat few weeks with fixing up the house etc.

Also been meaning to write in-laws and send them a copy of his needs her needs and not just friends. Hoping to get this accomplished this week. Like I said in previous post I miss them a lot and hope that these books will help give them some new understanding of things.

My family has read a little of not just friends. I think it has given them some new insight into things. However they are not very supportive in my endeavors. They just say they don’t want to see me hurt again and again and that I have been through to much. They also mentioned that I can’t do this on my own and that wife has to want the marriage to. I try to explain my self and reasoning they don’t get it. It is disappointing because one thing my parents taught me is never give up or quit. There support is important to me.

Two of my friends went through bad break up this past year as well. They weren’t married so there situations weren’t the same but both have met some one special recently. I am a little jealous….I really miss wife, affection, spending time together, cuddling and etc. I haven’t felt connected with wife in several months now. I wonder if we could ever get back to that place. The books say you can. I miss it…

I know a few weeks ago wife and I weren’t even speaking. Now we have worked together as a team getting house ready for the market and are able to talk with one anther again and joke around a bit. This has been great improvement. I wonder if there will ever be anything more than this. Topics of divorce and layers haven’t come up in a few weeks now.

I am starting to ask my self if it would be better to just give up and start over with some one else. It has been on my mind a lot this past weekend.


JAR


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## turnera

I don't blame you!



> I try to explain my self and reasoning they don’t get it. It is disappointing because one thing my parents taught me is never give up or quit. There support is important to me.


That's because your happiness is more important to them than your ethical approach to not giving up. Always will be. Maybe you could give them more detail about WHY you are trying, what it would look like to you, how you've learned to protect yourself and also to improve your relationship, if you get a chance. That might reassure them.


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## land2634

jar said:


> My family has read a little of not just friends. I think it has given them some new insight into things. However they are not very supportive in my endeavors. They just say they don’t want to see me hurt again and again and that I have been through to much. They also mentioned that I can’t do this on my own and that wife has to want the marriage to. I try to explain my self and reasoning they don’t get it. It is disappointing because one thing my parents taught me is never give up or quit. There support is important to me.
> JAR


I've been dealing with the same issue with my family. The only thing I've been able to tell them is that I won't just jump right back into the same relationship. They say, "Things can never be the same," to which I respond, "You're right, they can't. The relationship most certainly has to improve and take on a new dynamic. For all intensive purposes, it must be a new relationship." That seems to make a little more sense to them as to why I continue to press forward at winning back a woman that has done this.


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## Affaircare

JAR (and land2634)~

Bear in mind that your families are seeing someone they care about very much suffering. When you see someone you care about suffering, what do you want to do? Stop the suffering, right? Also, they probably know as much about affairs and infidelity as you did when you first came here (which is "not too much"). Unfortunately, when we are growing up we don't usually teach "How to be Married" in high school, and even worse, through Hollywood and romance novels and such we do learn a lot of myths about love and marriage. 

So don't be too discouraged by your family's response. Chances are super good they just don't understand and this is a really excellent opportunity to teach them. Also you know as well as I do that they WANT to help you in some way--it would probably make *them* feel better! So tell them right out what you need from them, whether it's a hug, periodic phone call, going out to dinner, cash...whatever. Obviously make a respectful request but I'm just saying you could use some emotional support and they have NO IDEA what to do so ask them right out. 

Regarding you specifically, JAR, I would suggest mentioning to your wife that you miss her. I wouldn't make a BIG deal out of it to her, or make it sound whiney or clingy...but everyone likes to know that they are missed. Maybe you could, in the course of conversation, mention that you had a good Labor Day weekend doing XYZ but it reminded you of the time you two (insert what you did here) and it made you miss her. The ultimate goal is to let her know she is still valued and loved, and I think it would be real to let her know that this is really how you feel. Furthermore, if she ever does end the affair or it fizzles out, she may feel like she painted herself into a corner if you don't tell her that you miss her. 

So beg for her to end the affair and come back = NO
Tell her to miss her and think about her = YES


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## tamara24

Jar,
As everybody has mentioned above, your parents just can't stand to see you hurt. My son is not even to dating age yet, but I know I would totally despise the woman who dared to hurt my baby! You again, have to be patient!
I think I would seriously tell your wife how you feel. Have you thought of approaching her and explaining financially this is spreading you thin and could you possibly move to the guest room until the house sells? It would save you gas for all these trips and you would be helping with the dog. It might even give you a chance to create some love kindlers. Make sure she is aware that you are not doing it as a way to check up on her or have different motives. It will also give you a chance to see if you can get that spark back or bring some finality to it all. I think you have made tremendous progress and have been very patient. 
Keep up the good work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

So wife’s family friend past away yesterday from a very long battle with cancer.

Wife texted to tell me and I called her right away to talk abut and ask her how she was feeling etc. She didn’t have much to stay and seemed a bit ambivalent. I asked for the details of funeral etc. She asked if I was going to funeral and I told wife that I might go depending on dog at a minimum I will send some flowers or something.

Email from wife this morning explaining that dogs kennel cough is even worst today. She explained she didn’t think it was good to bring dog with her. She also explained that kennel cough is really contagious so we couldn’t bring her to the kennel. I can’t bring dog to my place because landlord has a really old dog that is already on its last legs and I can’t bring dog to my families place because of there dog. So it seems that I will be going home to stay for a few days wife’s recommendation.

This is getting interesting.

JAR


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## i_feel_broken

sounds good jar but don't get carried away. Just play it cool keep up the hard work you have been putting in. A great opportunity for you to show her what a great guy you are. Don't expect too much though especially if she is grieving.

good luck!


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## jessi

jar, just be there for her and the dog......don't expect anything, if you get a chance talk to her about the financial burden, she what she suggests until you sell the house......
hang in there, slow and steady........keep your eye on the bigger picture


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## tamara24

Jar, 
How perfect! I would consider that a huge step for her. This is really an oppurtunity for you to really shine but don't over do it. Just remain real and stay on task. 
Sorry to hear about the dog. Our dog has it too and is absolutley miserable. I do hope it gets better. 
Did your wife comment on you sending the card for her grandmother's bday? What about sending your wife a thinking of you card and mentioning that you are thinking of her during the loss of her friend and if there is anything you can do for her?
You are doing a tremendous job.


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## jar

The latest from wife...I am looking at this as a friend going to dog sit. I am going to be careful to not get to far a head of myself.

JAR

Ok thanks for the heads up just let me know when you talk to her(the vet). Also I assume you are going to sleep in the guest room, it should be all set for you when you come. There really isn't a ton of food that you like in the house, but please feel free to eat what you find (except for my lollipop  ) I am going to try to get to work for 7am or earlier tomorrow so I can leave right at noon or slightly there after, I just wanted you to know so that you could get home to Annie's as soon as you can, I hate to leave her alone like this. Also while you are home if you are looking for something to do True blood season should be on HBO on demand. Thank you so so much for doing this it means a lot I am extremely worried about Annabelle, she just looks and sounds horrible, but I really need to be with my family right now. I still plan to come back sometime on Saturday and I will let you know when that will be. 

Again thanks a TON!!!! 

Ps. They did a pretty good job on the house pictures don't you think?

Wife


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## land2634

It really does seem like you are no longer the "big bad enemy" that you were a few weeks ago. Some of her statements indicate that she is considering you when making plans/decisions. Even little things like telling you about True Blood show that she is at least thinking of you and not 100% using you. You've come a long way. Keep up the great work.


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## Affaircare

As I mentioned to Land, I do have some ideas for you two as you're in your "patient Plan A" mode--at least some actions you can take that won't hurt and may help. 

But right now I want you to envision your wife as a pretty lady who's on her own, and you're a guy...maybe at her office or school...who has noticed her and kind of like her, but you two haven't hit it off just yet. You have done a few nice things for her, and she's responded in a way that's pretty positive without actually outright flirting with you. You think to yourself, "Huh I think I'd like to get to know *her* better!" 

So let's brainstorm. What do you do? If you were just meeting a lady like her, what would you do to get to know her better? If you tried "something nice" and it worked, would you maybe actually flirt? What is your flirting like? What WAS it like? (After all, it got her attention the first time!)


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## jar

Flirting....

I am not even sure I remember what that is/means let a lone where to begin....:scratchhead:

I will give it some thought today.

Thanks Afaircare
Jar


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## jar

I am sitting in my house right now. It is really quite. Took dog to the vet. Basically dog seems ok picture wife painted me was much more grim and sever than what it really is. Maybe her being a little overly mellow dramatic.
House is really way beyond clean and organized. It is way to neat and orderly. I think wife must clean and organize things to keep her busy. I opened kitchen cabinet to get a bowel tonight and the plates and bowels are ordered in alternating sequential order based on color and size. Little over the top even for me.
It is taking everything I have not to snoop around house. Wife even left laptop here. I keep telling myself I am just a friend and a guest right now and I can’t be doing that. It will just get me upset if I find something incrementing or if I don’t find anything at all. I have a few projects that I am going to work on while here hobbies type things to keep mind off of it.
That’s all for now.
JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
you are a good man, remember to not get ahead of yourself either, this is a small step, a favor for her that she will appreciate......
don't expect anything more than a thank you and don't read anything into it, maybe when you leave you could give her a hug goodbye if she will allow it......
Be happy, confident and show her the man she is thinking of giving up........
sure hope your dog gets better soon, they are like our babies......


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,
I have been following your thread. I just haven't had time to step up and comment. You are doing great. The flirting idea is good. Practice it on others. But watch the slppery slope. You have a lot going for you. I'm sure many women could and would jump at the chance to be in your wife's shoes. Keep that confidence level up.


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## jar

Thank you for the encouraging words.

The house is so quite and depersonalized all the photos are gone except a few of wife’s family.
Doesn’t feel like a warm loving home anymore. Feels like some one else’s place. It’s not the same as when I left. 

I can’t believe wife comes home to this for the past 3 months. I forgot how it feels to be alone like this. I felt this way when wife left me for 2 weeks this past spring.

I have kept my self busy tonight no snooping. I am a little depressed... So silent…It feels strange to be here. I don’t think I like it.

Sorry just needed to vent. I am thinking about this flirting thing. I am not even sure I know where to begin on that front we will see if I can whip out the old charm when I see wife next.
We did have a nice convo on the phone tonight I asked how everyone was holding up with funeral etc. We talked mostly about dog. Every time I ask how she is she just says fine or ok. Maybe I need to ask this in a little bit more of a round about way.


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## turnera

Yeah, find specific questions to ask. "Is your elbow holding up?" Like that.


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## jessi

Hi jar,
quietness is a two way street, I'm looking for some peace in my mind at least......
flirting, little looks, little touches.....when you speak right into her eyes......
maybe ask her opinion on some things, make her feel that you value her views and she will feel important to you......
don't go overboard.....she probably won't up yet, but keep asking, maybe when she feels safe you will get a different answer, for now......she knows you care just because you are asking.......


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## panafedin

agreed, awesome post. I am putting it in my permanent reference "file."


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## Affaircare

For assistance on the flirting front, here is a great article on TopDatingTips.com entitled "How to Flirt". Now if you do a Google search on the topic you'll find worthless articles that say, "make small talk" and "use body language to show interest." Yeah. Thanks--what does that mean! 

This article actually has some specifics on some body language that means flirting, like: 

Prolonged eye contact
Winking
Stroking or toying with hair
Smiling
Licking of lips
Crossing legs
Leaning inward

And it also has some other options like behavior you can do that indicates flirting. Once you flirt and she flirts back, flirt some more and she flirts back indicating some interest...then it has a link to another article about how to suggest the first date. 

Now I don't know the author of this article or have any affiliation with this site--just seemed like one that was more practical and actually gave some real suggestions you could use versus stuff like "use your body language" which doesn't help at all! :lol:

Regarding the funeral, I'd like you to remember, JAR, that she's likely grieving and may very well feel numb or so sad that talking is hard. So I'd suggest a couple things. When it seems appropriate mention to her that different people grieve different ways and that you offer to right out loud to help her and be there in any way that she needs. Ask her if there is anything she would like from you or anything you can do that would ease the pain--a hug maybe? Tell her you're not sure what to say or do, but you care very much and would like to help. Ask her to tell you stories about her friend...and bear in mind that sometimes the very BEST help is just sitting with her silently. 

On a practical level, ask if you can make her some meals for the next one week or so and if she doesn't want "company" you'll make one today and enough for the next two days so she can pull 'em out of the freezer and just warm something up. (BTW, make soup--it's warm, it's nutritious, and if she's been crying she can swallow it.) Ask if there are some errands she'd like you to run. Ask if she'd like you to do some household chores or just do some things you know need doing but leave a note that you'll be doing it so she has some time for herself (laundry or taking care of the dog). You can even ask if she'd like you to stay for a little while in the guest bedroom--so you're available 24/7 for her. Take her for a walk...or a grief support group...or out to lunch where she can start to be re-integrated back into "the world" after the funeral. Bear in mind this is ONLY TO BE SUPPORTIVE and not as a way to "work your way back into moving back" or to try for a date. Right now the focus is on just doing what women will call "Being There" for her. 

Finally here are a few things NOT to say:
_"I know how you feel._" No you don't. 
_"It's God's will."_ This will just make her mad at God for taking someone she loved. 
_"Look at what you have to be thankful for._" This isn't the time to be all happy and thankful; this is the time to be sad. 
_"They're in a better place now._" What if she doesn't really believe in heaven? That means her friend is just GONE or worse, in hell! So yeah keep this to yourself. 
_"This is behind you now; it's time to get on with your life."_ Let her grieve at her own pace. It may be a while or she may act like she'd like to distract herself. Follow her lead.


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## tamara24

Maybe you could have a meal waiting for her when she returns. Try to give her a light hug when she comes in. Incorporate it with, I am glad you are home, how did everything go?
Maybe do some small chores that you know she does. That would be a nice thing to come home to after the funeral. Maybe have a small bouquet of flowers with a thinking of you note....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Had an amazing day with wife yesterday….the flirting thing went really well….

More to follow tonight..
JAR


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## jessi

I read your post about your good day with your wife and a little yippie went through my head, happy for you.......
slow and steady Jar.....


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## jar

Interesting few days

Friday I calmed down a lot and started to feel more at ease in my own house and ok with the situation. 
The dog started to feel better as well. 

We know very few people in our town. One person I know well is the gal that cuts my hair. So I made an appointment with her and went over to her shop/house and got my hair cut. Afterwards I hung out with her, her husband and kids and had a few beers it was a nice evening. I had told her wife and I were doing bad a few months ago. She started talking to me about how she almost had an affair with a client and we had a general chat about that. She then told me that she and her dad had just caught her mom in an affair a few weeks ago. We talked about that a lot. I finally admitted that is what had with us.

Hair Gal told me she had heard from one of her clients which is also one of wife’s co workers. We talked about this a lot and what I had been through. Basically co worker had filled hair gal in on just about everything. (Why is this important keep reading)

I thought a lot about all of your posts etc about flirting and nice things. Etc….I sent nice cards to wife’s family friend and family. While home I cleaned up basement. Fixed broken florescent light, painted bathroom calling, made sure everything was perfectly cleaned up and put away like wife had left it. I even washed the sheets and re maid up the bed I slept in.

I had some ideas about making some food for wife when she got home. I have real issues when it comes to cooking. I didn’t get to this project.

I was having issues and was really wondering if I was still in love with wife. This has been on my mind a lot the past few days.
Saturday morning rolled around and I started on trying to get lawn mower fixed. This wasn’t going well and I needed to run to parts store. Since it was nice out I rolled my old jeep out of the garage with the top off and went…

When I returned wife was home. She was in kitchen cutting up an avocado. I took one look at her and began smiling she looked great. She stared smiling back and said what is your deal . I told her she looked beautiful.

She had noticed painted bathroom calling right way and thanked me. We sat down at the table and started talking about dog and funeral. She made several nice complements etc and I did the same back. 

I mentioned that I need to run up to the mower place and get a few relays for mower and that I planed to hang out for a while this afternoon. She said that was ok. Then she asked if she could go with me. So we hopped into the jeep and headed out to get mower parts. The place is about 30 min away but since it was such a nice day and we were in our jeep I took the really long scenic way. Lots of winding roads mountains and gorgeous towns and scenery. We talked the whole way there. Flirted some and I got flirting back. Hour later we got to the store and got parts and headed back home. On way we stopped at this great place and had a nice lunch. We talked she told me more about funeral family etc. I made sure to ask about her feelings etc. More flirting lots of smiling some touching it was really going amazingly well and it felt like we were married gain.

On the way home from lunch we were talking again. She made a few nice complements about my looks and made some comments that suggested that I must be doing well with the ladies. I told her that was not what I was about right now. She asked what I am about then. I told her I was all about tacking care of my self and figuring out life and happiness. I think she liked hearing this.
During our conversation on several occasions she talked about her weight and that her hair was all over the place from windy jeep ride etc. I was reassuring and kept saying she looked great to me.

Conversations turned to hair dos and wife was telling me she needs to go see hair gal in the next week or two. She asked who had been giving me hair cuts. I told her a few people had but I had just been to hair gals the night before and I stayed a few hours talking and having beers with her family. She looked at me was like ok….she asked if hair lady new we were broken up…Wife calls us broken up…Not separated or divorced just broken up…I told her hair lady did know about us. Wife just said oh…Wife then asked what I told her….this is where things got uncomfortable…Do I tell her that hair gal knows everything or do I give her the PG version. Old JAR would have kept it light as not to hurt wife’s feelings…I decided to go with truth. I said hair gal heard story from her co worker. She asked what story I simply said affair with OM etc. Wife shut down at that point and got up set and was silent rest of way home. She also tiered up some. Wife hates being talked about.

Got home wife went inside I invited her to hang out with me and help with mower. About 10 min later I went in house wife looked upset and was watching TV. I sat down and said I know it hurts your feelings when you get talked about. I then told her we could talk about it if she wanted or I could just sit and spend time with her. I also told her I may not be able to offer any great advice but I could listen and be there and that I was in a good place mentally and emotionally to do this. She just snapped back I am fine and tiered up. I said ok wiped hear tear off and mowed lawn.

20 min later I went back in house and sat down next to her on love seat and started watching TV. She just smiled. She opened up some and wanted to know more about the conversation with hair gal and she shared some feelings. I just sat there and listened she told me it is fine she got her self into this and needed to get her self out some how. Wife said I don’t need to be nice to her. I told wife again I just want to be her friend right now and be there and that I could do that job right now.

We continued to watch some TV. I recommend that we watch a specific movie that I had seen recently and thought was funny. She just looked at me and said you’re going to hang out that long. I told her that I could if she wanted me to. We watched another TV show no movie and then she said that she thought I should get on the road back to my place.

So I headed out loaded my car gave wife a big hug. She commented she was glad we spent day together and that she had fun. She even commented on the hug.

This morning I woke up to a text messages thanking me for such a nice day. Also thanking me for cleaning up basement and that she had just saw that. She also thanked me for doing dishes before I left and that she just noticed that. 
So some good progress was made we really connected this weekend. I don’t know what to think about the affair conversation. Not sure if it was bad or good but it did ruin the rest of a perfect afternoon. I feel I should call hair gal and let her know there could be some fall out that could come back to her.

So that was this weekend….lots and lots and lots of conversation and flirting…

Thank you everyone so much for keeping me going
JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Nice going. Aren't the people on this forum great? Where would we be without them?


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## Affaircare

Hey JAR~

You can call Hair Gal if you like, but you didn't ruin a good afternoon. You told the truth and in this instance the truth hurts. But here's what the real issue is: your wife made a silly choice and now she knows that people know. She said, "I got myself into this and now I need to get myself out." I think the easiest way to "get out of it" is two things: 1) talk to Hair Gal and tell her that you are hoping that one day you and your wife can rebuild and that if she DOES talk to wife, to be kind and maybe mention how even she (Hair Gal) was tempted and she came to her senses, etc. 2) talk to your wife and tell her that you noticed she said "I got myself into this and now I need to get myself out"...and that you thought about that and realized that she probably feels kind of alone dealing with all this. Then tell her she is NOT alone that that she doesn't have to "get herself out of it" all by herself because you're on her team too. 

Now JAR, right this minute you may not feel very much love for your wife, or feel too smooshy...but as you two have more good days like that with some flirting and some going to dinner etc. the love for her will build (because of some added kindlers). The trick now is to pace yourself to a degree so that any extinguishers she's doing don't completely deplete you. Thus, being honest with her and yourself is REALLY IMPORTANT. Remember the other day when you were just emotionally overwhelmed and had to leave? Yeah that was a good move to preserve the love you have for her and not let the extinguishers utterly deplete you. 

She is CLEARLY and definitely responding. I say keep this up a little, tell Hair Gal to be kind but honest, and make sure to repeat that message over and over that you are on her side, you two are a team, you're working on things together, she's not alone. 

On a practical note, if you're not a cook, that's cool. There are some amazing gourmet canned soups and meals can be delivered, etc. The idea is that sometimes when a person is grieving they don't have it in them to cook...and don't feel really very hungry...but not eating is bad for the health. So make it sort of easy for her to get some nutrition.


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## Affaircare

Oh! I almost forgot!


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## turnera

Wow, I can't imagine a more perfect thing to happen than hair gal. How much better to get her to her senses than to realize "It is ME who is the butt of everyone's gossip - because I cheated."

Suddenly, the affair is what it is: nasty, slimy, and embarrassing.

Reiterate that the best way to 'get out of this mess' is to rededicate herself to her marriage. Tell her lots of people do that and go on to live amazing lives together, after the wakeup call. Tell her you're willing to help her do that; you WANT to do that. But if she chooses not to come back to you, then you won't end up being her friend; i.e., there's a time limit to the new 'friend' you, because you're still in love with her, but that won't last forever.


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## tamara24

Jar,
What a wonderful day! Great job. 
It makes you wonder if she got so upset that the other man thing is either off or getting ready to end. She feels bad for her mistake, do you think she is afraid to show this to you and say, I screwed up and will you take me back? She tries to push you away with I am fine then takes baby steps and let's you watch t.v. with her. Then up goes the wall,you need to go. Sounds as if she is uncertain of how you will react to her. She even questioned you about the ladies liking you. That was to see what you would say.
You did an awesome job and I think you should do the flirting, little touches and maybe invite her to dinner so you can check up on her this week. After all you are concerned about her well being with the death of her friend. I am patting you on the back, great job!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

It was a great afternoon. I really had a good time. It was nice to get out and take a nice jeep ride together. It was a memorable day and it has been more than 3 months since we have done anything like this.

When I did talk with hair gal she was very sympathetic to the situation and wasn’t acting in a judging way at all. I explained the story to them as well as my stance on it all. I think she could be a good person for wife to get to know a little better. She seems to be very in touch with her feelings and able to talk about anything.

I was questioning my love for wife but as soon as I walked into the house and saw her…I new….I new that I was still in love with her….just as much as I have ever been.…

My family came to my place yesterday they got me a new grill. I can handle grilling I am thinking of inviting wife to my place for dinner or suggesting we get together and make some things together and freeze and take to work for lunches or for dinners during the week.

Wife’s family friend who died last week form cancer said some interesting things.

Wife mom went and visited her day before she passed away. She said to wife’s mother JAR and Jars Wife are not doing well are they….Wife’s mom said no they are really not doing well at all and it is complicated. Friend that passed away responded by saying I pray for wife and JAR everyday. This brought my wife to tears. Wife told me that when her mom told her this it was too much to hear. Wife explained hear friend is dying of cancer and is on her death bed and she is worried about us of all people. Wife said she had been talking to her therapist about this.

I didn’t know this friend well. I new her husband better he came and stayed out our house for a week while she was in hospital getting stem cell treatment. Shortly after this she went into remission for a year and a half.

I sent wife this email this morning and this is what I got back in return.

Hey Wife

I have been thinking a lot about you since Saturday. I realized you may feel kind of alone right now dealing with all of this. You’re not alone and you don’t have to get yourself out of it all by yourself. I am hear and still on your team.

Love
JAR

Hi JAR,
Thank you fro the email. You are dealing with a lot yourself and you may also feel alone. 

Wife

Thank you everyone
JAR


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## jar

Another email from wife...I dont know what to think of this...

Hi J, 

Ok I guess I really didn't finish my thoughts in my last email to you, seemed kinda awkward. I meant to say I hope you are not feeling alone and I'm sorry if I have made you feel that way. I also am not trying to lead you on, I am very happy that you seem much better and at peace with yourself, I'm sure you have noticed I am just not at peace at all. My own fault but that is just the truth of the matter. It was nice to hang out with you on Saturday. 

Wife


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## OneMarriedGuy

OK, sorry to be abrupt in this answer but it sounds like this to me.

"you seem like you are doing well, (yeah, makes me feel better for sh!tting on you). I am not doing so good (poor me, see I hurt too) but i don't want to try to get back together."

That isn't to say it may not ever change, just that is what I see her saying here.


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## turnera

Or...she is really enjoying having the old jar back from when they were dating, but it's also now causing immense stress from her guilt - he's so great, she's not. And btw, please don't get any ideas; my being nice does NOT mean I'm coming back; at least not now.


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## tamara24

I vote with Turnera, I hear a lot of guilt talking. She doesn't want you to get the wrong idea, but she kinda likes having this handsome exciting JAR around. He doesn't make her feel bad and he doesn't preassure her.
If she said hey Jar, I want you back, she has more of a chance getting hurt because new Jar is taking better care of himself and she saw pics of him on a boat with other women....
I would keep playing it cool, she is not stupid and knows when a man is flirting and she flirted back. Let her feel more safe in the relationship to know that old Jar is not going to leap out somewhere after she pours her heart out to him.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotJustMe

In my humbe opinion JAR, you need to make it a point to let her know that all is NOT forgiven, and there is NOT necessarily a 100% chance that you would even take her back should she decide that's what she wants.

It may sound counterproductive, but at some point you need to remind her who is in the right here, and who is in charge. The harder you pursue this one, the more she is going to dangle that carrot in front of you. Turn it around and make her chase you for a little bit now.


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## turnera

Good point.


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## panafedin

NotJustMe said:


> In my humbe opinion JAR, you need to make it a point to let her know that all is NOT forgiven, and there is NOT necessarily a 100% chance that you would even take her back should she decide that's what she wants.
> 
> It may sound counterproductive, but at some point you need to remind her who is in the right here, and who is in charge. The harder you pursue this one, the more she is going to dangle that carrot in front of you. Turn it around and make her chase you for a little bit now.


MAN, I could not agree more! :iagree:

I've been following this from day one, and I think as long as you are there, without making sure she knows you are not a GUARANTEED THING, she will just keep on stringing you along while dabbling in her alternate reality. From her fog, she thinks "why not?" The way things are, she gets the best of both worlds! She can 'try out' another relationship all while knowing you are sitting there waiting for her, practically begging her to come back.

I am not saying be vengeful or spiteful; just make sure she sees the necessary clues to remember that you are not just going to sit idly by while she 'tries out' this alternate lifestyle. She needs to see you as a man with great self-respect; and that you have limits. She needs to know you are a man that understands and cares, but you also are not a doormat. 

Take this advice with a grain of salt. I am not an expert; just another guy who's wife left him a long time ago (12 years). Initially, I did exactly what you are doing, as she kept on seeing the scum OM, who used her, then moved on. Then she went onto a new OM....all while I kept making all those deposits of love/needs/understanding, etc. Finally, I went to my 'plan B' (before TAM existed, so it was my own form of a plan B) and it jerked her back to reality. Unfortunately, after 'some' healing and minor reconciliation (I think it shocked her fogged brain to see me stand up for myself), she went right back to her wicked ways and I had to file and end it. In retrospect, I am thankful for the experience (I know, hard to imagine). After a decade of reflection, I can say it made me a stronger and wiser person in dealing with significant relationships. It would appear to me that your wife has little respect for you at this juncture. Without a baseline of respect, it's hard to determine if her actions/motives are true. 

The good news is I am here, 12 years later, with a new wife (married 9 years) and never been happier. 

It's out there for you too. I am not saying that you end it now. Follow the advice of the experts, they have thousands of examples to base their experience/recommendations on. I am just saying that your situation is eerily similar.


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## jar

I don’t know what to think at this point…..

Remember a few weeks ago when I took care of dog for the weekend and then rushed home last minute and to meet with the realtor. 

I ended up getting really upset and leaving that day. 
Wife had gone to the cost shopping that weekend and she bought me a special candle. When I asked if she spent the night there she said no.

In my post I mentioned it looked like she just had gotten home in a hurry and had found that suitcase in the closet hamper. My gut was telling me she spent weekend with OM there.

Wife just posted a new profile picture of just herself sitting on a bench watching sunset over the ocean. Date was from that weekend. Kind of a romantic place. Wonder who took the photo my guess is the OM. 

That picture just broke my heart a little bit again. Maybe I am making assumptions but my gut is telling me OM took picture. Why would she post that does she think I am that naive. Really hurts my feelings especially after a nice weekend. Maybe I am making assumptions and there could be a logical explanation. Not what my gut tells me.

Maybe you guys are right…I didn’t think I was being doormat like. I also haven’t talked relationship or affair or divorce or said I would take her back in a second. Usually when we talk she offers up much more info than I do.

As I am writing this wife emailed me this…..First time she has initiated friendly email like this…

Hi J, 
Just had to email you and tell you about the silly dog today. I was soaking my feet with the MK mint foot soak and she was trying to drink the water. Then I start putting on lotion, she starts trying to lick my feet, but the minute I try to let her smell the tube of lotion(mint also) she backs away and barks like it’s the worse smell. I even tried to show her what she was trying to lick on my feet was coming from the tube, no doing.. the tube is the devil but the smell of my minty feet inticing..lol. 
Just thought I would share. 
Wife

JAR:scratchhead:


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## jessi

just go with it Jar, she didn't have to send you the email, she was thinking about you and wanted to share with you.....
You guys have a long way to go, she is getting more comfortable every day and is starting to feel safe again with you......
no expectations Jar.......don't make that mistake and scare her off......
don't worry about the OM and the picture, if she didn't post it you wouldn't question it, don't look......
she is trying to get things straight in her head and that is what you want, you want her to come back to you with a clear head, not someone who is still caught in the middle....
Jar that doesn't mean that you can't be out there having fun with your friends and family as well.....
let her see if she waits to long it might not be a sure thing....keep her guessing a little as to what you are up to......
might scare her into thinking you are moving on without her......
If she asks, tell her you would rather spend your time with her but you understand that she has a different plan.....
she will only decide if she is forced to think about her choices.....
you are stronger, she sees this now and you are becoming a safe place to be......be a little misterious, don't answer right away when she calls or leaves a message.....
dogs are so cute, love to hear the stories......


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## land2634

jar said:


> I don’t know what to think at this point…..
> 
> Remember a few weeks ago when I took care of dog for the weekend and then rushed home last minute and to meet with the realtor.
> 
> I ended up getting really upset and leaving that day.
> Wife had gone to the cost shopping that weekend and she bought me a special candle. When I asked if she spent the night there she said no.
> 
> In my post I mentioned it looked like she just had gotten home in a hurry and had found that suitcase in the closet hamper. My gut was telling me she spent weekend with OM there.
> 
> Wife just posted a new profile picture of just herself sitting on a bench watching sunset over the ocean. Date was from that weekend. Kind of a romantic place. Wonder who took the photo my guess is the OM.
> 
> That picture just broke my heart a little bit again. Maybe I am making assumptions but my gut is telling me OM took picture. Why would she post that does she think I am that naive. Really hurts my feelings especially after a nice weekend. Maybe I am making assumptions and there could be a logical explanation. Not what my gut tells me.
> 
> Maybe you guys are right…I didn’t think I was being doormat like. I also haven’t talked relationship or affair or divorce or said I would take her back in a second. Usually when we talk she offers up much more info than I do.
> 
> As I am writing this wife emailed me this…..First time she has initiated friendly email like this…
> 
> Hi J,
> Just had to email you and tell you about the silly dog today. I was soaking my feet with the MK mint foot soak and she was trying to drink the water. Then I start putting on lotion, she starts trying to lick my feet, but the minute I try to let her smell the tube of lotion(mint also) she backs away and barks like it’s the worse smell. I even tried to show her what she was trying to lick on my feet was coming from the tube, no doing.. the tube is the devil but the smell of my minty feet inticing..lol.
> Just thought I would share.
> Wife
> 
> JAR:scratchhead:


All I can say is the mere fact that she e-mailed that to you means she is considering you throughout her daily life. That's a good sign. Just roll with it. I've been watching this and can say you've come a long way. Both of you that is.

Seriously, you're going in the right direction and doing the right things. Just keep moving forward and I'm confident that whatever the result, you'll feel better for it.


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## Affaircare

JAR~

Let's have a rousing game of "Worst Case Scenario." Let's assume that it really was the OM who took the photo of your wife on the beach. Okay? Got that?

1) While she was there, with him, she thought about YOU and got you a present. She went to the effort of finding that store, and spent money on YOU. If that's true, that could not have set well in AffairLand. In fact, it would have likely been a fairly large dump of cold water! 

2) Since that time, where has she been? Running off to loverboy OM for help and support? Or has she worked with you at your house, been at a funeral, turned to you for help to go to the funeral, turned to you for some emotional support, flirted with you, had a great weekend with you, and now sent you an email that clearly was her way of sharing something with you she thought you'd find heartwarming? 

There is not sufficient evidence to determine if the affair is ongoing or if it has ended...or if that weekend on the beach was their last ditch effort before it died! Here's what we DO know though:

a. She was splitting you all evil and was very volatile, and lately she has not been. 

b. She was determined to pursue divorce mediation, and lately she has not even brought that up. 

c. She was determined to not talk to you and was very closed, and lately she has opened up somewhat. 

d. She was blaming you for everything in her life that made her unhappy, and lately she has not been...in fact, she's taken some personal responsibility. 

e. She was unwilling to spend any time with you, much less admit she could have fun with you, and lately she has been doing both!

f. She did not care one wit whether her actions were hurting you (or anyone else), and lately she expressed being aware of what she's done.

g. She did not want to contact, text or email with you, and lately she has been receptive to those little contacts. 

h. She was hesitant to flirt with you, and lately she has not been hesitant! In fact, she flirted right back! 

Thus, this isn't a competition, but even if the affair *is* ongoing, you are making strides for the better! I do see marked improvement in the way she's behaving and thinking. Some of the fog is beginning to clear, and you are getting moments of contact with the real wife, not her Evil Twin. My expert "guess" would be that the affair is cooling off if for no other reason than that the fog is beginning to clear! 

So you are in a unique position, JAR. At this point, whether OM is there or not, she's noticing the changes, she's liking them, she's opening up what was previously OH SO CLOSED., and what I believe you need to do is remain consistent to demonstrate with your actions that these changes in you are permanent. 

*****

Regarding the suggestion by some folks to "make her earn you" let me ask you this. From her point of view (foggy though it may be) you hurt her and disregarded her for years. Now she's starting to see the changes you've made shining through like a beacon to guide her back home to the marriage. It's starting to reach through and break through the fog. 

So what would happen if the lighthouse said, "The boat that's lost at sea needs to 'earn' my light"? The boat would stay in the fog and probably stay out to sea because it's lost!

Although it's an analogy, I believe the same would happen here. From a disloyal point of view, you were hurting her for a long time. Now you've recently stopped hurting her, and she sees the difference. But if you suddenly were to change to "You need to earn my not hurting you" she'd stay lost because the options are: 1) stay and return to being hurt or 2) go and be free to not be hurt! 

I'm not suggesting that you don't maintain your dignity. I'm not suggesting that you let your disloyal wife treat you like a doormat. I'm not suggesting that you let her have her cake and eat it too. But look at what's going on! You two are still married, and she not even mentioning any alternative. YOU (her husband) are the one making progress and on her thoughts. She's not asking you to finance the affair or "okay" it or in any way support it. She's not avoiding you, continuing to lie to you, or pridefully blaming you. 

So I would say continue as you are, because it's making a difference. To some degree, continue acting as her husband because you are! As she comes out of her fog, she's going to feel very sad, hopeless, and unbelievably guilty--and if you were in that position of having made an INCREDIBLY DUMB and BAD CHOICE...would you want her to treat you like: "Now you have to grovel forever and make it up to me to earn me back"? Or would you want her to treat you like: "You made a mistake but I'm your wife and I love you anyway. You're not alone. We can work on this together and fix this, and for things you have to do on your own to get better, I'm here to be your friend and treat you with compassion"? 

When the time comes, I would not encourage you to punish her. I would encourage you to allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choice to deal with the issues by having an affair. Those natural consequences are: 1) No Contact (maybe quitting her job); 2) Transparency by both of you--so both of you let your spouse see the real you (that often includes sharing passwords, access to programs/websites, being able to verify words and actions match); 3) Commitment by you to work on your issues, commitment by her to work on her issues, and commitment by both of you to work to fix the relationship.


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## Wisp

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## i_feel_broken

hi jar,

i have been following your story for months now, ever since I joined these forums after finding out about my wifes affair.

I am really pleased for you... it does seem like you have made real progress. It must have been great to spend a day with your wife like that and I'm sure if you will spend more if things continue like they have been doing.

I am no expert but from someone who is now in a similar position I know how you are feeling and I know what you want to happen. Please be careful. I'm not saying you are doing the wrong things as I am doing the same but even though I find it hard not to, I realise I may not be doing the right things for my recovery.

I try to tell myself everyday that I am doing well and getting on with my life without my wife, I tell myself that I am starting to move on etc... The reality is though that in the back of my mind I am waiting for a text message, an email or call and I am actually pinning everything on her coming back.

Although you have made progress I think it is sensible not to read too much into what has happened and get carried away. Keep playing it cool... keep looking after yourself and be patient. Easier said than done I know!!

I hope this doesn't sound too negative but you have been through so much and I know how you feel, try not to focus on her coming back as this is by far a certainty. 

Keep us updated on any more progress, it does appear the fog is lifting!!


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC's advice has brought you where you are today. I suggset you continue to take it. You are the nice guy. You are being better than the guy she liked when whe first met you. You didn't make her earn you then, why would you do that now? Be the cool guy she would want to date.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Following in your footsteps...Good conversations make for good friends. Election day today. So I called my wife to discuss the candidates. "We" discussed who "we" would vote for. Then we reviewed football gridiron fundraising. She seems to want to make an effort here to be sure that our son feels she still holds interest in him. I am doing the lion's share of work seeking her advice. So I am following you as my role model, Jar.


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## turnera

jessi said:


> Jar that doesn't mean that you can't be out there having fun with your friends and family as well.....
> let her see if she waits to long it might not be a sure thing....keep her guessing a little as to what you are up to......
> might scare her into thinking you are moving on without her......
> If she asks, tell her you would rather spend your time with her but you understand that she has a different plan.....
> she will only decide if she is forced to think about her choices.....
> you are stronger, she sees this now and you are becoming a safe place to be......be a little misterious, don't answer right away when she calls or leaves a message.....


 I second this. I've seen quite a few WSs perk up once they see their BS get out and get a life. It's like 'wait a minute! you're supposed to be feeding my ego, not going out and having fun without me!' Suddenly you're worth looking at again. Worth a try.


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## jar

I would like to thank everyone for there support and opinions. This one of the reasons I posts things on here. So I can get others perspective on things. It really helps a lot.

It has been a long 10 months since I first discovered wife’s affair. I am in a much different place than I was several weeks ago when I left home….

In the past weeks I have been able to finally calm down and get some footing under myself from all the chaos and panic that we have been through in the past’s months. I feel much more grounded and centered and at piece with the situation…Its still a difficult situation to cope with and I still find myself being caught off guard with some hurt feelings from time to time but it is much more easier to cope with now.

Am I a door mat that is contributing to this affair? I don’t think so. I have defined very clearly to myself what I am willing and not willing to do at this point. The things I have been helping wife with the past few weeks I have also done for myself…Our house is also mine as well as our dog…Financially I am contributing the bare minimum etc….Am I being strung a long. I think there is some of this happening but I also think that it goes with the territory. (Light House in the Storm analogy) Do I have hope for us as a couple and our marriage The answer is yes I see a path to recovery. I am still very much in love with my wife. However am I setting my self up for disasters or disappointment? The answer to this is maybe but I have defined very clear boundary’s….I have a new understanding of my self and my needs. I have a plan and a time frame defined. I also know that I need wife to meet me half way enthusiastically among many other things in order for me to want to continue this marriage. I have learned some new skills to keep my self protected for what comes next. I know I will be ok, happy, and a better person in the long run with our with out her. I still choose being married to my wife. I am not hedging all bets on her or putting all my eggs in one basket. I hope for the best but I am prepared for the worst. 

I have had a great summer I have made some new friends. Had a great family reunion at the beach. I went boating every weekend. I continue to peruse hobbies that I am interested in. Like my aquarium. I have a small one now that I regularly posts updates and photos on at an aquarium forum. I am going to Vegas in November….I have made a life that includes wife at a distance at this point. All of these things have gotten back to wife through facebook photos, mutual friends, and I let little snippets of information out about these things when wife and I talk. I am not sitting around waiting desperately. 

I will remind all of you 4 weeks ago wife and I were at the table with a 200/hr mediator ready for a knock out battle. As affaircare pointed out in my recent interaction a few things are evident…Wife is showing signs of remorse for her actions, I haven’t seen the evil twin in a few weeks now, She also shows signs of enormous guilt. Read the below emails from her today. I am now seeing her vacillating and struggling with her choices….She is also showing compassion for my feelings now….Very Interesting…I haven’t seen these things from her in months now…

Yesterday I shared with you a few emails wife sent. She has sent some more today. Not sure how I am going to respond to the last one yet. 

Here they are….

**************

JAR
Ok I guess I really didn't finish my thoughts in my last email to you, seemed kinda awkward. I meant to say I hope you are not feeling alone and I'm sorry if I have made you feel that way. I also am not trying to lead you on, I am very happy that you seem much better and at peace with yourself, I'm sure you have noticed I am just not at peace at all. My own fault but that is just the truth of the matter. It was nice to hang out with you on Saturday.

****************
Wife
I have my lonely times still but they are less frequent than they use to be. You will get to that place where you feel more at peace and centered. It takes time and some work to begin to heal.

Don’t forget that there are many people in your life that love you and are there for you and you’re not alone. What we are experiencing many people go through.

****************
JAR
Glad to hear you are less lonely. It is very nice of you to be so understanding. Are you past us, just curious?

****************
Wife
Am I past us….

That is an interesting question. I plan to stay true to my vows and my commitment to you and our marriage for as long as I can…Every morning I wake up and choose to make this decision.
However I am at a point where I know that my life will be satisfying and happy weather we are together or apart… I lost sight of myself for a while and forgot that I can riley on myself to accomplish my hopes, dreams, and goals… This has given me some tranquility during this difficult time. 

Things are going to be ok

*****************

JAR
Ok, I guess I understand some of what you are saying, I guess my question was whether or not you desired us to get back together or you have decided that we should both move on. 
I am glad that you have come to these conclusions for yourself, about yourself. 
Guess I don’t know what else to say.


----------



## turnera

It sounds to me like she is testing the waters to see if she might be able to come back.

But I think she needs to hear YOU say it. 

I think a perfect response would be "Of course I want to get back together. But if we do, it will have to be with the understanding that I cannot accept cheating in my marriage. When you are ready to recommit to our marriage and forswear any other men, by all means, let me know. I'll be waiting. For a while. The danger here is that this has been going on for almost a year, and the longer I am away and watching you carry on an affair, the more my desire to have you back in my life decreases; there will come a point, if you aren't able to make a decision soon, where I WON'T want to get back together. But for now, the answer is yes, with stipulations."


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## land2634

I would say be truthful with her. She's flat-out asking you what you want the way I see it. If you want her back, tell her that but also specify the things that you see will make sure it's a healthy relationship, an improvement over your marriage from the past.


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## Wisp

Try "if you stop the affair together we will rebuild our marriage and love."


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## Affaircare

I agree she's testing the water, and I could see her going both ways: "Do you want to get back together?" or "Are you still holding onto that old hope?" I'm almost POSITIVE that she would not want to go back to "the way it was" because that was hurting her. 

Thus I would suggest a response along this line:

"You asked if I desired us to get back together or if I have decided that we should both move on, and to be honest it threw me for a loop a little because that's hard to answer. I still do love you very much, and if you're asking what would I, JAR, like to do I would say that I would like to be together. The problem is that the way it *was* in the past was not good for you or for me. I don't want to return to that. If I could wave a magic wand, I would like to keep options open and probably date again, and see if we couldn't learn how to do a better job being together. For example, I realize now that I (insert one Love Extinguisher here). At the time I was not aware of the full extent of how damaging that was, and now I realize I was treating you not as someone who was equal and beloved. That's not cool! So I really shy away from that because I don't want to fall into that habit again. I need to practice a new habit...a better way of acting. And I'm working on that! So for me, that gives me hope that both of us could admit some things we need to improve and do better, and in the end make a really healthy relationship. But that's just me. I would hope we could do it together, and I hope that's something you'd consider also."

The idea is to pretty strongly communicate that ideally you would LOVE to get back together and work it out, but that going back to "the way it was" is not acceptable to you. The way it was hurt you and hurt her! So you get it, you don't want to be that guy anymore, you are changing--suggest that she may need to change too, and you won't be perfect at it. But that in the end, you think if the two of you learn how to do a better job, that you could both be a lot happier and loving


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## jar

Thank you all for the advice. I thought about this stuff most of the afternoon.
The last email wife sent was late morning and I didn’t respond to it.
This evening I received this email from wife.
JAR
Just wanted to apologize for my emails today, not trying to confuse you. I am very happy that you seem so happy or at least content with things. Saturday the hair gal thing got me, just coworker talking about me,I guess for me my image and what people think of me has always been important and I feel very judged. Not that I don’t deserve those things I did a horrible thing to you and I get it, it just hurts. 
Thanks for you kind words.
Wife

I just responded to this email and wife’s last email. I am not going to post the letter but I followed your advice pretty closely affaircare.

Thank you guys….Wonder what’s next.

JAR


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## land2634

jar said:


> Thank you all for the advice. I thought about this stuff most of the afternoon.
> The last email wife sent was late morning and I didn’t respond to it.
> This evening I received this email from wife.
> JAR
> Just wanted to apologize for my emails today, not trying to confuse you. I am very happy that you seem so happy or at least content with things. Saturday the hair gal thing got me, just coworker talking about me,I guess for me my image and what people think of me has always been important and I feel very judged. Not that I don’t deserve those things I did a horrible thing to you and I get it, it just hurts.
> Thanks for you kind words.
> Wife
> 
> I just responded to this email and wife’s last email. I am not going to post the letter but I followed your advice pretty closely affaircare.
> 
> Thank you guys….Wonder what’s next.
> 
> JAR


You'll be in my thoughts and prayers this evening. Hoping for the best for you. You've definitely worked hard for the best possible result.


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## tamara24

She is definitley testing the waters and affair care is correct. Let her know that you still love her but would only come back if both of you were willing to change and the OM was completely out of the pictue. Also make sure she realizes that you know she made a mistake and you can forgive her if she is willing to work on the marraige. Do not hold the OM over her head. 
It is very nice that she is being considerate of your feelings and she wants you to be honest with her. Just make sure you stay strong and don't be a doormat. She still has feelings(guilt betrayl, evil twin and hurt from both of you). If you stay firm on what you know to be your goals and what you can take,you will be fine.
You sound as if you are there. I would definitley call her for a date and when returning home,discuss this in person. You don't want anything you say to be lost in translation at this stage in the game. She is reaching out, but she can read something the wrong way and boom! You are doing terriffic job and you are certainly more comfortable with yourself. This will show.
It sounds as if her and OM are cooling or cooled off. Be sure to ask her if she doesn't want to lead you on, then why is she flirting and such? She must have a reson why....most likely because she likes the new you but she has hurt you and afraid you will feel she is leading you on when she is not sure what she is doing at this point. 
We are all rooting for you, keep it up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## panafedin

jar said:


> I would like to thank everyone for there support and opinions. This one of the reasons I posts things on here. So I can get others perspective on things. It really helps a lot.
> 
> It has been a long 10 months since I first discovered wife’s affair. I am in a much different place than I was several weeks ago when I left home….
> 
> In the past weeks I have been able to finally calm down and get some footing under myself from all the chaos and panic that we have been through in the past’s months. I feel much more grounded and centered and at piece with the situation…Its still a difficult situation to cope with and I still find myself being caught off guard with some hurt feelings from time to time but it is much more easier to cope with now.
> 
> Am I a door mat that is contributing to this affair? I don’t think so. I have defined very clearly to myself what I am willing and not willing to do at this point. The things I have been helping wife with the past few weeks I have also done for myself…Our house is also mine as well as our dog…Financially I am contributing the bare minimum etc….Am I being strung a long. I think there is some of this happening but I also think that it goes with the territory. (Light House in the Storm analogy) Do I have hope for us as a couple and our marriage The answer is yes I see a path to recovery. I am still very much in love with my wife. However am I setting my self up for disasters or disappointment? The answer to this is maybe but I have defined very clear boundary’s….I have a new understanding of my self and my needs. I have a plan and a time frame defined. I also know that I need wife to meet me half way enthusiastically among many other things in order for me to want to continue this marriage. I have learned some new skills to keep my self protected for what comes next. I know I will be ok, happy, and a better person in the long run with our with out her. I still choose being married to my wife. I am not hedging all bets on her or putting all my eggs in one basket. I hope for the best but I am prepared for the worst.
> 
> I have had a great summer I have made some new friends. Had a great family reunion at the beach. I went boating every weekend. I continue to peruse hobbies that I am interested in. Like my aquarium. I have a small one now that I regularly posts updates and photos on at an aquarium forum. I am going to Vegas in November….I have made a life that includes wife at a distance at this point. All of these things have gotten back to wife through facebook photos, mutual friends, and I let little snippets of information out about these things when wife and I talk. I am not sitting around waiting desperately.
> 
> I will remind all of you 4 weeks ago wife and I were at the table with a 200/hr mediator ready for a knock out battle. As affaircare pointed out in my recent interaction a few things are evident…Wife is showing signs of remorse for her actions, I haven’t seen the evil twin in a few weeks now, She also shows signs of enormous guilt. Read the below emails from her today. I am now seeing her vacillating and struggling with her choices….She is also showing compassion for my feelings now….Very Interesting…I haven’t seen these things from her in months now…
> 
> Yesterday I shared with you a few emails wife sent. She has sent some more today. Not sure how I am going to respond to the last one yet.
> 
> Here they are….
> 
> **************
> 
> JAR
> Ok I guess I really didn't finish my thoughts in my last email to you, seemed kinda awkward. I meant to say I hope you are not feeling alone and I'm sorry if I have made you feel that way. I also am not trying to lead you on, I am very happy that you seem much better and at peace with yourself, I'm sure you have noticed I am just not at peace at all. My own fault but that is just the truth of the matter. It was nice to hang out with you on Saturday.
> 
> ****************
> Wife
> I have my lonely times still but they are less frequent than they use to be. You will get to that place where you feel more at peace and centered. It takes time and some work to begin to heal.
> 
> Don’t forget that there are many people in your life that love you and are there for you and you’re not alone. What we are experiencing many people go through.
> 
> ****************
> JAR
> Glad to hear you are less lonely. It is very nice of you to be so understanding. Are you past us, just curious?
> 
> ****************
> Wife
> Am I past us….
> 
> That is an interesting question. I plan to stay true to my vows and my commitment to you and our marriage for as long as I can…Every morning I wake up and choose to make this decision.
> However I am at a point where I know that my life will be satisfying and happy weather we are together or apart… I lost sight of myself for a while and forgot that I can riley on myself to accomplish my hopes, dreams, and goals… This has given me some tranquility during this difficult time.
> 
> Things are going to be ok
> 
> *****************
> 
> JAR
> Ok, I guess I understand some of what you are saying, I guess my question was whether or not you desired us to get back together or you have decided that we should both move on.
> I am glad that you have come to these conclusions for yourself, about yourself.
> Guess I don’t know what else to say.


JAR:

After reading this post several times, I would like to 'back off a little' with the somewhat 'black-n-white' advice I offered earlier.

I agree with what some of the more experienced posters have said since you posted this entry: there does appear to be some definite signs of hope here.

I offered my previous counsel with a 'grain of salt;' if your total experience were 100% of a 'pie,' my knowledge of it would only represent a mere 1%, if that....

Given the status you offer above, I encourage you to continue the path the others have hit on, one of staying strong in the fact that you want to honor your vows and move toward reconciliation, assuming she will completely cut off contact with the OM. Like them, I see numerous signs of hope!

Someone once told me: "Marriage is a tough gig, man."  This was a wise old jazz musician, not formally educated, but wise in the ways of the world, who showed true transparency to me in offering encouragement in a time of need. Hang in there, JAR! And know that you are in my prayers daily. The best result that could come is a full reconciliation and perhaps someday even a stronger marriage (than you ever experienced before). Remember the words: "to purify the gold, you've got to put it to the fire...."

Continued blessings my friend,

Pana


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## jar

No word from wife today...Wednesdays is therapy day for her. I would imagine she is bringing a lot to the table today....

:yawn2:
JAR


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## Affaircare

Yep--she probably has a lot to talk about with her therapist and a lot to think about/figure out on her own. The fact of the matter is that some Disloyal Spouses get to a point where the affair is over or ended and they can see the damage they did to themselves and to the marriage, but they are so hard-hearted that they would rather blame, deflect, and divorce than take personal responsibility and work on themselves! 

I would venture to guess (and it is truly just an educated guess) that today might be the day she decides if she could risk it again--and that would partially mean deciding if she's willing to look at her own side of what needs to be worked on.


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## panafedin

Affaircare said:


> Yep--she probably has a lot to talk about with her therapist and a lot to think about/figure out on her own. * The fact of the matter is that some Disloyal Spouses get to a point where the affair is over or ended and they can see the damage they did to themselves and to the marriage, but they are so hard-hearted that they would rather blame, deflect, and divorce than take personal responsibility and work on themselves! *
> I would venture to guess (and it is truly just an educated guess) that today might be the day she decides if she could risk it again--and that would partially mean deciding if she's willing to look at her own side of what needs to be worked on.


*Wise word from a wise person.* So true! And for you, JAR, good news within this context. Your spouse is willing to work on herself. This almost certainly works in your favor.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I believe AC gave you great advice. How does she come up with this stuff? I think she hit the nail on the head. Jar. it looks like you are in a great place. But remember that this is a rollercoaster. Don't be disappointed if there is a swing the other way. Stay on course. I would speculate that the affair has ended and she is working through the withdrawal phase or has done so. Be patient.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Don't you think a turning point for you and her was how you dealt with the mediator? I do.


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## jar

I do think a turning point for us was right around the time frame we fired the mediator.

I don’t think it was specifically that event I think it was a number of things that happened right around that time frame.

Things have been going in a positive direction…..I haven’t heard from wife since Tuesday…

Anything could happen at this point…We will see what the future brings.


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## turnera

Oh, I definitely think it was you standing up to the mediator that changed things. Before then, you'd been meekly going along with whatever your wife wanted, even though you'd told her you didn't want to. 

Women can't respect men who don't respect themselves. Once you showed her that you DO respect yourself and have your own boundaries, it got her attention.


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## tamara24

Have you responded to her last emails? Maybe she is waiting for you to make a move? Tread carefully with thisbecause you don't want to back track on all the good stuff that has happened.
Also, remember, how would you feel if she had not responded to your emails? You don't want to keep her hanging on the hook. It isn't respectful to her to hurt her by not replying.have a good weekend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

You were having a positive affect with flirting. That was fun. How about some light humor? It is nonthreatening. Has something happened in the past couple days that you can report to her in a funny way? Funny is happy. She wants happy. Give it to her! Maybe you can have some funny banter. Keep the exchanges going. Affaircare and Harley both promote active Plan A. Don't sit on your hands.


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## jar

Nothing new from wife….Radio silence….Wonder if her therapist set her straight on a few things….Don’t know I can only speculate…
I did respond to all emails from her….I still send a little texts and emails to her during the day…Things like what I have been up to…Happy memories things like that….I started texting at 10pm every night saying goodnight. This was something we always did when I traveled or we were apart. Simple phone call or text saying goodnight. I haven’t got a response back yet.
I asked if I could stop by the house on Sunday to pick up a few things.

Patience…
JAR


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## tamara24

Remember, she just lost a friend,her life is in turmoil and she has all these new feelings about you.She may need time to adjust after her therapy appt too. I am sure she had a lot to discuss.
Have you asked her how she is doing with the loss of her friend. I am sure the statement that her friend made really impacted her and with the death, it may be weighing heavily on her. She may be thinking even more about your lives and if she has wasted hers.
Keep up the contact. Make her feel safe and comforted. I know she was the one that had the affair, but right now is a good time to focus on her needs. If she doesn't respond, I think I would drive over and make sure she is o.k. and if she questions you, just tell her, you were concerned about her and wanted to to see for yourself how she was since she did not respond to your emails......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

She did send me a quick email today saying it was ok to stop by house on Sunday. That was all the email had to stay….I hope we can have a nice chat and I can talk to her face to face and I can take a minute and ask how she is doing….

Thank you tamara


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## iamnottheonlyone

Don't forget this is a rollercoaster ride. She probably is coasting down hill right now. Remember that and don't get stressed. Why don't you think of this as fishing? You just don't keep realing in. You give a little. Let the fish pull. Sometimes let the fish run to tire. You might want to go neutral for a few days. Nothing too sensitive or relationship oriented. Friendly business.


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## OhGeesh

I'll reiterate don't get your hopes up. I wish you the best either way.


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## jar

Stopped by the house tonight to pick up a few things. Wife asked me to get some dog food on way so I did. I didn’t have any projects to do while at the house…Not really any flirting today…She wasn’t reciprocating. We had a few minutes of light conversation. I managed to work in the following during the conversations. I asked how she was. I asked how she was feeling since funeral…Asked about her family…I asked how she was emotionally…I also asked if she had anything on her mind to talk about….I got one word answers like fine and ok…

I spent some time playing with the dog and took her for a nice walk around the neighbor hood. I asked if she wanted to join me. She said no.

I told her I thought I would be back Friday night to mow the lawn. She reminding me that her family was coming from all direction on Saturday for a get together. I wasn’t invited and it is at my own house. She said her sis and her family maybe around Friday night when I am there. I hope so I miss them and my nieces. It would be nice to see them.

Before I left I gave her a hug and told her to give me a call some time if she wanted to talk.

House has been on the market a few weeks now. Not a single call on it yet.

Hopefully I hear from her this week some. I will continue to check in with her.

Trying to be patient
JAR


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

You did fine - not pushy, but just caring and interested in her. I would give her about another week to grieve before she slowly starts to heal from her loss. Again, she may also be "processing" her conversation with her therapist. 

Regardless, focus on yourself this week and the possibility of seeing some of her family on Friday. Let them see the "new" JAR. I would not feel slighted about the large family event. It probably would feel awkward for her at this stage. I know it is hard not to want to rush things when they start to flow, but this is where true patience comes into play.

Personally, I think you are going above-and-beyond to go the the time/$$ expense to cut the grass. It is not like you live close to her. Maybe her family will notice YOUR efforts, even if you are not there.

Chin up!


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## turnera

Just me, but I would take some extra steps to make sure her family knows how much effort you are making, however you can make that happen. Even if it means being a cad and showing up at her 'event.'


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## jar

I plan to do just that Turnera


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## tamara24

I agree, but tread carefully. I would see how Friday night goes. Maybe you could wrangle an invite from the SIL. That way, you just don't show up and get cold shoulder from wife.
I think she may be freaking about now. She isn't sure what to think,doesn't want to hurt you by flirting and maybe. She isn't sure how to take you. Remember her question about moving on to you? Did you give her what she needed to know you are committed to the marraige as long as OM is out of picture.
I would do emails/texts this week and try to get some love kindlers going and pull her out of her shell. Take her for dinner or make dinner on Thursday. Ask her if she used her massage certificate? Tell her to use it, she needs it. This will give her some safety and show her that you are protecting her during her time of need.
Maybe you could invite her to your place,light some candles,have pizza and a movie. Try to get her to let you masage her shoulders and lightly touch her face(this is a calming technique). Keep it light but ask her how she is feeling,is she confused about you,isshe upset about her friends last thoughts,don't let her get away with fine answers. Find away to get her to talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

I think you are right. I can’t force her to talk but I can keep trying different avenues to show that I am interested and that it is safe to open up. Fine and ok are not good enough answers.

Not sure if she would come to my place if I invited her but I can always try.

Something to think about

JAR


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## land2634

jar said:


> I think you are right. I can’t force her to talk but I can keep trying different avenues to show that I am interested and that it is safe to open up. Fine and ok are not good enough answers.
> 
> Not sure if she would come to my place if I invited her but I can always try.
> 
> Something to think about
> 
> JAR


Yeah, the worst she can say is no. I've found that attempting to stay in contact by my wife by e-mail, even if she doesn't respond or says no, lets her know I'm interested in her life and care for her. In a lot of ways, I think they want to be pursued and in some deep place, they feel better knowing that we will fight for them and the marriage, even if they don't know what to think about coming back into the marriage.


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## tamara24

Then go to your favorite returant or take her dinner to your/her house.that would be good but get her to relax.
I know things have been tough. Sometimes, I get like your wife and shut totally down. I do this when things get beyond my control. Since I have my own turmoil with the hubby,he knows not to push me further. But when I get so wound up that I give one word answers,it irritates the ****out of him. The other night, he pulled me from my chair and made me lie on the couch, turned the light down and gently massaged my shoulders and caressed my face. At first, I was resentful, but then I began to relax and I actually fell asleep and slept four hours straight.(a record for me). At that moment though, I felt safe. It was uncomfortableat first sine we have not communicated well, but as continued to just masssage and caress, it felt good!maybe this won't exactly work for you, but you do know if you think about it,how to make her relax without making any sexual advances..maybe run her a hot bubble bath,have dinner waiting when she is done.think,think,think...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wow. You're making me teary just _thinking _about having a husband who would do that for me.


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## wherenext

wow....I just read this entire thread (it took me a week off and on!!) and I have to say.. JAR, you are such a strong person for doing what you're doing and from beginning to end, it seems like you have made SO MUCH PROGRESS with your wife!! Most of this affair stuff is new to me, so I can't say I have too much really helpful advice for you but I wanted to at least write and say that Im following this thread and rooting for you! and also that your wife is extremely lucky to have you, whether she knows it yet or not!!


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> I think you are right. I can’t force her to talk but I can keep trying different avenues to show that I am interested and that it is safe to open up. Fine and ok are not good enough answers.
> 
> Not sure if she would come to my place if I invited her but I can always try.


I like this idea and I like using different avenues to show her you're interested. When you were dating, it wasn't only email or phone...right?  One resource I use every day myself is the Romance Calendar on Lovingyou.com because it gives one romantic idea for each day. If you're not a romantic whiz, this calendar gives you one idea a day and you can take it from there and personalize each idea!

Also, I'd like to remind you of a communication basic concept. If I ask you, "Hey JAR, how are you?"...isn't your gut reaction to say, "Fine"? That question is not a question that asks for more information. "Are you doing okay?" "Yep." See what I mean? :lol: Instead, ask a question that really requires more than a one-syllable reply, like: “I’m going to the market this afternoon. What can I bring you from there?” or "You don’t need to put on a brave face around me, honey. I'm here if you'd like to show me your true feelings."


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## jar

Heard from wife this morning. I sent her an email telling her about my crappy morning.

She responded with that is too bad and went into business and schedule kind of things.

I let her know the answer to her questions

I am going to the house Friday night to do some yard things. I mentioned that she must be busy getting ready and a little bit stressed out. I mentioned I would pick up dinner so she could take the extra time and relax on Friday night. I specifically asked what she wanted.

I got a response back explaining that she is trying to eat healthy and I shouldn’t pick up anything for her.

Maybe I could spend the next few evenings figuring out a nice healthy meal to make and bring it with me when I go.

Something not to difficult to make but something different and not everyday normal thing. I will have to put some thought into this tonight.

I am having one of those days where I feel like a poop stain on the underwear of life.

JAR


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## turnera

*hugs*

You're doing the best you could possibly do. 

Even if this doesn't get her back, YOU have learned a LOT and become a better person!


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## Affaircare

JAR, 

Today might be a good day to take care of JAR as well as you've been taking care of Mrs.JAR lately. I have a newsflash for ya: she may be stressed with the house on the market, the death of a friend, and family coming over...but YOU are stressed with a wife who's repeatedly been unfaithful and family you miss whom you may not get to see! 

So take yourself out for dinner tonight, go get a massage, go watch "The Expendables", or stay home and put on your grunge sweats and play Halo! LOL  Go for a long bike ride. Do something for JAR because he's a pretty good guy and deserves a little self-care.

Also, note to self: she specifically said that you "...shouldn’t pick up anything for her" for dinner. So if you do bring her something, you are not listening to her and doing what you want to do. So rather than bringing her some dinner, listen to what she said and possibly bring something else such as some healthy DRINKS (fruit juices or a lemonade/iced tea) or a healthy dessert like sorbet and fruit. Or how about a "Healthy Eating Gift Basket"?


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## jar

I had an hour and a half to kill between appointments today. So I went to the book store to look around and get a coffee. I was after a cook book for myself. I don’t know how to cook anything and I am trying to figure this out. 
While there I found a great healthy cooking cook book with a lot of really good looking recipes. I thought of wife since she is trying to eat better. I called her cell. She didn’t pick up so I left a message saying I found this great book and was thinking of you and would like to buy this book for her. I told her to stop by since the book store was near her office and it was about the time she leaves for the day. I never heard from her and ended up buying the book for her.

Few hours go by and I get a text from wife saying that I have some mail at the house. She thanked me for thinking of her and asked that I not buy things for her. 

So normally I would give this to her any way but since she asked me not to get her things. I guess I will keep the book for my self. 
I wonder if she was with the OM.

Trying to stay positive consistent and patient
JAR


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## turnera

She doesn't want you to be nice to her because that makes her look bad. And feel bad. A nice jar makes what she did...bad. Her saying don't buy me stuff doesn't mean you have to do what she says. I say keep doing what you FEEL like doing. Give her the book.


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## jar

Last night I was reminded of a few things during therapy. 

I am trying to prepare myself for the next shoe to drop.

Wife’s Company is going to be having layoffs in October and she thinks that she will be on the layoff list. However she does not know this for sure. She also doesn’t know how many will be laid off.

More than likely if she ends up getting laid off she will end up with a minimum of 6 months of severance pay. That is a lot of time for her to figure out what she is going to do next.

There are really very few options for her to continue working in her field in our area. 
In conversation I have had with her she has indicated she plans to wait and see what happens with work.

Our house is for sale with no bites. It is almost October. I am unsure if the affair is continuing or not….I assume it is…Wife seems to be in a lot of turmoil and not at peace…She is showing signs of remorse…We have had some good times of late….However for the past several days she has been pretty much silent and un responsive to conversation, emails, and texts.

What’s next for us…Is she going to get a new job and move away on her own…Will she invite me to go with her…Seems unlikely…Will we reconcile before then…Will she file for divorce…Will she stick around the area….hmmmm

I have no idea what to expect on this front. Maybe she is planning on packing up and going just as soon as she can and is putting up with me the best she can until then.

What if she does go does that mean this is the end of our marriage maybe not….

Just trying to mentally get ready for the up and coming events. I imagine it could get kind of crazy and emotional.

Trying to take care of my self the best I can at this point and hope for the best. Wish I could predict the future.

JAR


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## turnera

I think it's time to start stepping back. I don't see you spending enough time on yourself, ok? Stop focusing on the marriage (I know, easier said...) and focus on how you are improving YOURSELF.


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## OhGeesh

^^^^^^^^^
I agree focus you JAR!! Don't get your hopes up........focus on JAR.


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## tamara24

Jar,
I think she is withdrawing because you are having good times and remorse and uncertainty has come into the mix. She will have to decide how remorseful she is and if she wants things to continue.

Focus on yourself,you have put yourself out there,she knows where you are and how you feel. Now think of what Jar needs and how Jar feels about moving on. If she comes to you then great,but I would not sit and wait. She needs to see that you are not a doormat and can move on. That might even be another wake up call.(on her part).
Hang in there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

I think you all are right….

I will continue to be consistent…I email wife once a day about my day just simple things and a nightly text saying goodnight. She almost never responds. Hopefully those will give her some feelings of being connected.

When I see her tonight I will do the best I can with all of my new knowledge and try to create warm fuzzy for her.

This weekend I am helping a friend move…doing some dirt biking…and I am going to figure out how to cook some stuff with my new cook book. So that is what I am doing for JAR this weekend.

Thank you
JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
Have you tried not sending the daily texts, do you get a response from her, maybe she knows she can depend on that contact from you, what if she wasn't getting it, would she question your intent, would she contact you......would she wonder what you are up to, would she wonder if you were finally getting over her......might stimulate some thinking on her part.......
good for you staying busy with your life........this is what you should do first, keeping yourself happy .........


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## Affaircare

I'm not positive on this one, but I've been thinking, and I wonder what would happen if you were somewhat blunt with her: 

"Honey, we had a great day last weekend, riding in the Jeep and just hanging out enjoying each others' company. I really, really liked it and it made me very happy, and I thought that you seemed happy on that day too. But since then, I've noticed that you've gotten quiet and sort of withdrawn. I asked a few times if you were okay, thinking that maybe something sad happened, but I can't really figure it out. Would you mind telling me what happened? Did I upset you in some way? I would really like to know, because as you can tell I'm trying to be a better man and work on me, and I need to learn how to be more sensitive to stuff like this. I just can not figure it out!"


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## OhGeesh

jar said:


> I think you all are right….
> 
> I will continue to be consistent…I email wife once a day about my day just simple things and a nightly text saying goodnight. She almost never responds. Hopefully those will give her some feelings of being connected.
> 
> When I see her tonight I will do the best I can with all of my new knowledge and try to create warm fuzzy for her.
> 
> This weekend I am helping a friend move…doing some dirt biking…and I am going to figure out how to cook some stuff with my new cook book. So that is what I am doing for JAR this weekend.Thank you
> JAR


Stuff in Red Bad.............. Stuff in Blue Good!!

I think daily email/txting is too much........way tooo much! Show her that you are able to live without her and continue to be cordial and inviting when times arise...if you can

Again, don't get your hopes up!


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## jar

I went home tonight to mow the lawn. Wife was cooking stuff for tomorrows get together with her family. 

Drama Part 1

Before I left I asked wife how her week was and what was new at work. Wife responded with the old fine ok response. I told her you know you can talk to me it is ok.

Wife then started to emotionally dump/unload on me.

She told me that my texts and emails made her think I wanted to get back together. I told her I was just trying to be friendly.

I asked if she had started looking for a new job yet. She told me she didn’t plan on it till after she hears if she gets laid off. 
She told me I might have to move home if she moves out. I told her I don’t want an argument but why exactly do I have to move home. I told her that I moved out and figured out how to support myself so why exactly do I need to move back. She got a bit upset and said because we can’t afford two places plus house. I told her we could talk more about it when the time comes. She doesn’t want the house to just sit empty. Conversion went on and on. I tried to be sensitive and listen the best I could.

The conversation moved into divorce talk. She asked me if I thought more about the list of stuff she came up with and what I wanted from the house. I responded with a no. She asked if she emailed them to me would I look at what she wants and respond. I told her possibly as I was not really ready to do this and that we could go through it when the time comes. She then told me that her feelings haven’t changed and she still wanted a divorce. I explained I wasn’t trying to convince her other wise and that she should do what is best for her.

She was getting up set. She said this was not easy for her. I told her it wasn’t easy for me either and that there were huge voids missing in my life. I asked what she wanted in the future. She told me that she new she didn’t want to be married to me and that she didn’t love me enough for that. 

She told me that the past 6 years she has done nothing but worried about everyone and everything but her self. I tried to sympathize and listen best I could. She told me she never did anything for her. She told me something to the effect of everything was about tacking care of me and nothing was about her or her wants or needs. I asked her do you know what you want in the future or need. She didn’t exactly know. I referred her to my email where I mentioned to her I needed some one that would work with me and teach about there needs and the way they liked to be loved I told her I needed to be with someone that would tell me there wants and goals in life and that is the direction I wanted to head with her. She again told me she didn’t love me enough to do that. She gave me an example of she didn’t want this house or our boat. These things didn’t make her happy. I told her I realized that know but you never explained that to me. I also explained that we would need to work together to come to a mutual enthusiastic agreement on things and that as her husband I would like to do all of the above and that I would like her to share her goals with me so that we both work together to achieve them. She again told me she didn’t have enough love for me to do this.
I told her that it upset me that I made her so unhappy in the past and that I was unable to make her feel good about our marriage and relationship.

Somewhere in the conversation I asked if she was still with the OM . She looked at me and was like I still see him from time to time. She confirmed what I thought the affair isn’t over. She told me she dint want this divorce because of OM.

At this point I headed out and she gave me a bowl of the chowder she was making for tomorrow. Happens to be my great gram recipe.

Drama Part 2

On the way home I got a text from wife saying 

I am sorry I upset you. I truly know that for me our relationship is done. I guess I finally understand you will not be helping me divorce so I will be moving forward on my own. I hope we can still be friendly through the process.

I responded by saying 

You assume too much on my behalf and I don’t appreciate it. Look up the term disrespectful judgment.

She texted me a few times again and I explained that I wasn’t going to talk about this texting and that I would call once I got home if she was interested in a conversation.

I called when I got back to my place. I told her that she makes all this disrespectful judgments about how I will react feel or say and that she doesn’t give me the benefit of the doubt of reposing for my self. I used the example of moving back home. Not willing to work together on a divorce and a few others that came up during the conversation. I tried to be as tactful as possible with out doing love busters. I expressed how it made me feel and how upset it made me. Etc etc.

She listened to me. I told her I was guilty of the same. We went on to talk more about our feelings our assumptions and miss communications. We even talked about the conversation we just had at home how she took what I said a few times comply wrong. It was a nice chat but emotional. She again told me she didn’t love me enough to continue on. She told me our problem right now is she wants a divorce and I am not ready yet. I again told her I want a relationship nothing like the past. Only like what I described above and that she shouldn’t assume any thing on my behalf. I asked what she wanted in the future and She admitted she didn’t have a plan and she was trying to figure it out. She also said she hated hurting my feelings and she tried for way to long not to do this. She admitted that she wasn’t good at sharing her feelings with me and I admitted the same. She admitted that she had some issues in this category as do I. She also said she worried about me finding some one else to be with. I told her that I would be married again some day to the right person. I told her that I loved being in love and having a companion to share my life with. I asked if she worried about that for her self she told me no. That she new she would be in another relationship again. I told her I was tacking care of my self for now and that when the time comes that I am open to meeting some one new. I also told her I still had some more work to do on myself before I started looking again. I also told her I planed to stay true to our marriage for as long as I could.

There is some truth in what she says about always worrying about others. She still seems to not know what she wants in the future. She does seem certain she doesn’t want me in her life as her husband. 

So that was tonight. I am doing ok. The emotion roller coaster. All things I have heard before. She still wants a divorce…Affair is still going on….I showed her the new side of me the best I could and I think I did well….The old Jar would of done none of the above. I hope I deposited a few love units. 

She really with drew a few more love units from my bank. It is really hard hearing that your wife doesn’t have the love she once did for you and that she doesn’t believe in a better marriage together in the future. I am struggling to figure out if divorce is really what she wants.

I am going to back off at this point and keep on keeping on. Worry about my self as everyone has suggested. Maybe she will come around but this conversation kind of confirmed everything I have been wondering about. 

JAR


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## lobokies

jar...
seems like she doesn't love you anymore... 

i have symphaty and salute to you for all ur effort to rebuild the M, why don't you erase her from your life. you dont need her in your life, so just follow what her wants and do not give her any support as she never supported your marriage. i bet, if you move on your own life, build a new and diferent life then stop thinking about her and ignore her for love, you will be a great person.

"She also said she hated hurting my feelings and she tried for way to long not to do this".
your wife is very selfish. why did she marry you if she could not stand to love u forever. she is not a faithful woman. woman who does not respect and keep the sanctity of marriage is worse than a whoore. she came with so many excuses for divorce.

live for your own life not for others. let her go. never thinking of she will realize someday that you are the best man for her. erase her from your mind. she sucks you man.

go on with your own life.dont even care about her.


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## land2634

It sounds as if she at least cares for your feelings but is still putting up the wall. Keep up the good work, you've still got a lot of time left!


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## OhGeesh

I've always said the Resentment+Time= A Bad Relationship

Your wife for whatever reason has alot of resentments. It may be from giving too much, spreading herself to thin, making sacrifices, being selfless in her opinion, without passing too much judgement on her this is the reality of how she feels. She feels and has felt this way long enough to not want to be married anymore and I doubt any "Do good" effort now will make a difference "A Day Late a Dollar short" as the saying goes.

As far as her future she doesn't seem like the type that is calculated, concise, and planned and I'm not saying that's bad.....she seems like a free spirit. She obviously feels free now and wants to move forward. Your questions of where are you going, what do you want out of your future, etc all seem questions that don't hold a lot of relevance considering the direction she wants this to go.

Your story partly reminds me of my wife and I before we got married. We were a couple of years in the relationship had our share of craziness.......when suddenly she became cold, distant, not nearly as loving to me. Turns out she was cheating on me with a "California Boy" I say that for descriptive purposes only. 6'2" Golden Tan, Shaggy sun highlighted hair, played the guitar, pretty studly dude. We had become friends through other friends and when he was around she would always be talking to him, but I just didn't notice the attraction. There was nothing I could say or do that was going to change her wanting him once he reciprocated the interest.

We broke up and all of the nice gestures, sweet cards, and crap made ZERO DIFFERENCE! As long as he was selling she was buying! Didn't matter what job he had (he had none), his life goals, he was fun, studly, cool, and talented and made her feel great inside. I was more focused, $$$, accumulating wealth, career oriented, etc. It took awhile before she realized he was just a big player and she was one of many being played. We got back together after some sowing of oats on my part.......but I did learn when a woman wants to go you aren't going to stop her! I also learned for women like my wife having fun, the simple things in life, and not being so stiff, matterred more to her than $$$$, house, career, and stuff. I could go on and on but won't

Focus on you Jar, your dreams, workout, stay healthy, focus on what you want out of life, downsize, travel, enjoy life, go on dates, join online dating sites, the world is your oyster! You'll find someone else especially in this day and age.

I'm not saying you have to throw in the towel, but reading what she said I honestly don't think it is helping. She really doesn't seem interested and sees your communication as not wanting to let this happen (which I understand) so she will move on with your help or without. Doesn't seem like she even remotely wants this to put it bluntly.

Good luck.


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## lobokies

i agree with ohgeesh.. 

jar
stay focus on your own life

GBU


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## AFEH

Hi Jar,
Isn’t it amazing how we’re so easily duped? The web of deceits and lies they spin, all the blaming, betrayal and treachery, they could be an excellent fiction author or would make a great spy.

I like to think I’m not a judgemental or suspicious person. I spend a lot of time and effort perceiving things, looking for reasons why, self examination etc. etc. before I come to any sort of conclusions or judgements.

But I had to come to a conclusion and judgement about my wife, in some ways to save my sanity. When I looked at it that way, what I’ll lose financially in the divorce arrangement I see as an investment in my sanity, well being and happiness.

But I don’t think you’ve come to your conclusions and judgements as yet. Why? Correct me if I’m wrong but you don’t sound as though you’ve reached the really angry stage. I don’t mean the “angry outburst”, rather the persistent long lasting anger that you haven’t a clue what to do with.

When I came to terms with who my wife is, basically a lying, deceiving, ungrateful, blaming person totally incapable of accepting any personal responsibility in the marriage problems I had an anger come on me that lasted 6 months. I couldn’t believe the intensity and long lasting nature of it. At the same time I became exceedingly bitter and resentful of my wife. I’ve never felt that way before in my life.

I would never had believed I’d stop loving my wife. I wouldn’t have thought it possible. But I did. Maybe you will too one day.

Bob


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,
You know the drill. Rollercoaster. Don't get discouraged. There is no divorce. Nothing is filed. Be positive and patient. I know you are probably thinking, "That's easy for you to say." But I know how you really think and you are all about optimism. You see that glass as more than half full. In fact you see the glass filling up. 
Rollercoaster!! Hold those hands up in the air on the way down the track. Ride it out.


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## tamara24

Ok Jar,

People may not agree with me but let me explain. Right now I am in a situation where the hubby has not been there emotionaly or physically and we have two special needs kids. For the past 11 years, it has been me that has taen care of the kids,worried about the money, found out. My spine was injured during birth of son and now I am disabled. So now I stay home and then the preasure comes,hey you stay home so why do you not get everything done. I have literally can say that I am fried. In fact in an impromptu mood, I just booked a flight by myself to go see my grandmother. I hate flying,neverleft my kids and my love for my husband. Get ready,yu have heard it, I am not sure I love him enough to work it out and he started trying really four months ago. He just now has a relationship with the kids,but doesn't remember ME. Now he tries, and it is to late. I love him more than any man in my life but love busters, the fighting, money issues,his adhd,the stress of the kids, and him not helping has chipped away at that love bank. 
I think that is how your wife feels. She obviously does not have the same issues as me. But she stresses about everyone else. The hubby asks me what do you want? I can't tell him. Why, because I have not thought of myself in so long,I have lost the ability to know my own wants and needs. Sound familiar?
My point is this, she says she still cares about you, your actions have confused her, and even caused her to think about things. If she had no feelings, she would not have flirted. She likes the new you but what happens six months when she says ok, I will let you in again and you return back to old Jar.Let me clarify, I never cheated but my attention was diverted by the kids.
She still has a wall. While I am leaving for a week, I am reflecting on what I want to do. How do I want things to change. It would be really nice if my hubby has finished the books and realized the things that you have. I would personally responded had he tried that hard. He is currently reading the books and we will talk when I get back.
My point is, you pushed for answers and she gets emotional, no way she wants you back,but she apologizes that she hurt you. She has no clue what she wants. She is wishy washy. I think it is time to stop being totally nice Jar. I think she needs to see what life with out you will be like. No texting or emails. Do what you have to doo at the house and go. This will hurt her feelings and she will stike out but stay the new you. As far as moving into the house. I think that is not for me to say,you alone know the financiial situation but I would not let her mandate you have to take it over when she wants to move out. You left because of her affair so if she wants to get out so bad, let her struggle a bit. It might even make her see the light one way or another.
Hugs and good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

JAR~

I wanted you to know that I thought about this most of the night last night. I saw your post pretty late, and plus I'm west coast so it would have been really late for you! 

Here's my thought. First, I generally agree with what tamara said. She shared what it was like for her in a way that makes a lot of sense and makes it really understandable, and for the most part the way she told her story is exactly what we mean when we say that gradually Love Extinguishers put out the flame of love, and if they continue, you could do all the Love Kindlers in the world, but the flame is out. 

Like tamara, I have seen signs of hope in your wife (for example, she did flirt with you, she did have fun on JeepDay, etc.), and from what I can gather from the two dramas last night, my educated guess would be that the OM was less in the picture or out of the picture (working on another project at work or something) for a little while there--during which time fog began to clear and she began to enjoy you again--and recently he has returned or become part of the picture again and fog has rolled back in. 

It reminds me of a person who used to post here named "flower"...remember her? She had an affair with a man from work and took time away from work for like a month to try to figure out what to do. Do you remember what happened? During that month, she realized that she should end the affair and try to recover her marriage, and she began to have feelings for her husband again. Then the date came that she'd have to return to work (where the OM was) and several of us basically begged her not to return, because yes the economy is bad but we *knew* that if she had any contact with the OM--ANY--that the fog would roll back in. Sure enough, she didn't want to lose the income and thought she could minimize contact and "stay in control"...but what she didn't see was that ANY contact with the OM (sometimes even seeing him) returns her mind to that foggy way of thinking that says "There's too much water under the bridge. Don't I deserve happiness too? I can't be happy in my marriage"...all those justifications for why they had the affair in the first place! 

Doesn't that sound like your wife right now? 

In reviewing what occurred, I'm proud of you. You stayed sensitive. You remembered your lessons and did your best to show her the new you. You stayed calm but in charge of yourself and your life. You didn't fall for her foggy talk. You kept returning it to wanting something new. You respectfully pointed out her assumptions and told her your real thoughts and feelings. You were fully honest trying to not love bust. These kinds of discussions are rarely "perfect" and I'm sure going over it today you're thinking, "OH! I could have said this or that!" But overall I think you did a good job keeping it real and not allowing her to pull you into her fog. 

So overall I think I believe you have laid a fantastic foundation of Plan A/Carrot and Stick. You have shown her the new you that you can be...and she knows that she has the ability to enjoy you and even have feelings for you. You have also shown her that you won't be manipulated into assisting her infidelity or making it "easier" for her to do what she knows is wrong. You love her but you're not a pushover! With that all said, I think the time may be fairly rapidly approaching for you to consider Plan B/Consequences. Only you can tell if you have the strength to carry on and how low the flame of your love is getting, but you want to move into Plan B/Consequences before that flame goes out entirely--I envision it like there is one, small, glowing ember left and before one last extinguisher on her side "puts it out"...you protect that ember by going to no contact. 

There is a lot to be done to prepare for Plan B/Consequences, so one thing you may want to do is to begin go to work on the preparations. Get a few things lined up and ready to put into place...so that when you do decide to go into that next step, you're ready to go. 

Finally, just a thought you may want to consider--an option if you will. It sounds like at the time you loved the house and didn't wait for her enthusiastic agreement...but she also didn't speak up and say, "This really does not work for me." One option would be for you to move home and let her move out. In this market, there is no way on God's green earth the house will sell for more than the mortgage, so I don't think either of you will get any equity out of it. Thus, as a suggestion, if you WANT the house, offer to move back in and remove her name from the deed, etc. She gets nothing out of the house, but she also gets no debt and you get the house you love. If she contributed to the downpayment, maybe offer to repay her for that...in monthly payments for two years or something.  My point is that I have no doubt she thinks "I'm going to get a nest-egg of $XXX if we sell the house," and reality is that it's selling in a divorce sale! She'll be LUCKY if it sells for the mortgage and she gets out from under it with no debt!! This might be a way of waking her up to some reality--she would have to move, leave, and take care of herself all by herself--and it might be a way for you to get the house you love. 

Anyway those are my thoughts! JAR, no matter what happens bear in mind you've come a million miles from the man you used to be. You've learned a ton and are a better person for it. If she's too stubborn to turn around and see that, it really would be her deep loss.


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## tamara24

Thanks,AC!
Jar, I hope I did not bore you with my story. My point is, I do not think she is as over you as she thinks. When you have history, you have the good with the bad and there is no switch that just shuts it off.she showed signs of really liking this the new jar. Even jealous over girls in the boat, noticed the cologne.she is only denying everything because of the guilt and she is worried about those new feelings.

If my hubby just transformed himself like you have,paid attention to what I said,offered to make me food,fixed stuff for me and mowed my lawn,I would be the happiest woman alive but that doubt would linger that you are just bringing me to the safe zone again then you are going to hurt me. I would not believe that you would change to save our marraige after I had an affair.(I did not) but I cantell you exactly those feelings.

I agree with AC on the house situation,that would put her in a pickle. I don't like the way she wants to tell youwhat she wants and asks you to respond. I think she is kinda thinking if she asks for it, you'll give it to her.I would never encourage anyone to get nasty, but I don't think she realizes how hard it is on her own. You have been trying to save her. She needs a little wake up call.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thank you everyone for thinking of me and giving me there perspective.

I have been thinking a lot about last night and replaying in my head.

I had a nice day helping my best buddy move. He bought a beautiful house for his family and I am really happy for them. It was nice be around old friends that appreciated my help. It was a good day for me.

I have been thinking a lot about everyone’s comments and last night. I am really am disappointed with my wife and our situation. 

I have made the decision to back way off again. For those who don’t remember when I left I had virtually no contact with my wife. I wasnt willing to talk with her let alone help out with anything. At the time I thought it was my plan b. But I realize when I left it was about me taking care of my self regrouping and refocusing. I was in a lot of pain and I had to remove my self from the situation. I realize the situation was different then in terms of the marriage it went way down hill at this time. Read my posts about the mediator. Personally this time helped me a lot.
I realize emotions and feelings are complex and not always something that is very easy to explain. Tamara I have read about your situation and your posts. To an extent I really do understand your feelings towards your husbands. I think it is good you are getting away. It could be a really good time for you to regroup and do some thinking and figure out what Tamara needs. It seems your husband is trying his best for you and his family and trying to kindle love once again. Many people have recommended for me to back off and take care of my self. What if you husband came home tomorrow and said I am going into plan b and taking care of my self no more contact. How would that make you feel? I realize our situations are different but you seem to share many of the same feelings as my wife and I value your insight.

Affaircare thank you….you have been my guiding light through the storm…

Very interesting observation about wife and OM…He maybe stepping up his game again and sucking wife back into the fog…It is tuff to stay but bet you are mostly correct here.

I was thinking more about our conversation and maybe wife resents me and feels guilty because I continue to remain so committed. Things seem to have gone down hill after wife so bluntly asked how I feel about our marriage. Not sure just a thought.

The truth about the house is I don’t want to be there with out my wife. I love our house because it is our home. With out wife it is just a house that I don’t want to be in. 

The financial aspects about the house are I can’t afford it on my own either can she.

I am going to back off again. However I got more fight left in me and I can endure some more for now. I am going to try to remain patient and positive and take care of my self.

I thought much about last night and our conversations and I am sure I could have said things different but I think. I did well for myself and I am happy and proud of how I handled things. Nothing like the old JAR.

Thanks again everyone.
JAR


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## lobokies

Nice JAR

May God always be with you.


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## tamara24

Jar,
I am going to try to answer your question to me. First, I am not perfect and I know that I started doing love exstinguishers basically out of anger. My hubby would not even watch his son for me to go get groceries. When my daughter arrived, her stomach wasn't completely developed and she could puke four feet across a room(sorry to be so graphic) ,she cried. I had to breast feed her constantly. Not easy with a 18 month old running around. I would just want a break for an hour and he couldn't deal with it all.his life was his own and I had the kids. Fast forward to today, still big medical issues, and he does his own thing. The anger just built up that he wasn't my partner.I took care of him,why couldn't he help me? Why did I have to be the one caring for the kids and he just comes in and watches t.v. my hubby is a very hard worker and very intelligent.so anger rose that he couldn't figure out why I was so mad.Turnera helped me through understanding that he can't know on his own. I needed to tell him. After all that anger, I lost that connection to say honey, this hurts my feelings and I need you to this for me. What really blew me out of the water was in Oct. We had just had son tested fo r luekemia. He was swelling from JRA, so I was getting two hours sleep ifi was lucky. It had been a hard eight months. We took kids to resort for miniweekend for anniversary and he had not even thought of me to get me a present. I was livid. It wasn't about the present,even though he expected one, it was about I am your wife who has gone through he**, and mother to your kids(a job that really bite the dust at that point). There was no appreciation,no respect for all I had done without him.I was angry he took me for granted. 
You might ask why did I stay, because I loved him and his family life was awful and I wanted to prove there isunconditional love and I was not leaving. After a while, I just got tired of caring for him,doing extras for him and nothing was returned. Things I did went unnoticed. Frustration kicked in.
hubby finally decided to get relationship with kids after I lost it in Oct. Then mother's day comes and again nothing. I feel like he did it to intentionally hurt me. He was like I couldn't find what I wanted to get you so I was going to take you later to get something. Miscommunication and assumptions!
He may be working on it Jar, but he has not had the personal reflection and growth that you have done. He started meds,so we waited. But I have been waiting 12 years for him now I am fried from being neglected.
If he came in now and said that was it, I could live because I have grown.I know I have done everything I could to salvage but on the other hand now he is trying and I am like let him work at it. I know you can't do that. So I have to decide. Anger and frustration and holding on to past grudges just won't go away but I am working on it after being on this forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Tamara

Thank you for sharing. You and your family have had a very long and difficult journey through out the years. I can’t imagine the stress and termoil you all have experienced.

With the way you are feeling about your husband it sounds like if he were to pack up and go and go into a no contact type of mode. That you would be ok with it and would continue taking care of your self and your family and move on. (I realize this is put rather simply but you know me some times I need the direct short answer) I really appreciate your insight into things.

I think in a way when wife asks me questions or tells me thinking like I do not love you enough to try or how do you feel about our marriage she is looking for an approval or justification from me to continue on her path with the OM. Looking for approval to make it OK. Something I have been thinking about for a while. I could be completely wrong here.

Well today I am taking a JAR day. Getting organized with bills, doing laundry, picking out a few recipes, going to the groceries store, and trying to cook. Looking forward to the drive to the store. It is all back roads and it is fall here. The foliage is breathtaking this year.

I don’t think dirt biking is happening today. My roommate is MIA…God only knows where he might be. I think he has some ADD issues.

If you don’t hear from me it means I burnt down the house while trying to cook…..
JAR


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## tamara24

Jar,
I didn't get to finish my thoughts(kiddie emergency). Anyway, no, hubby would not go into no contact mode. He needs people and he needs his kids. What I am really thinking is that I would not have left him in the earlier years because I didn't know that I could do this without him. My parents are not shining examples of a loving relationship and abuse was involved. I was the first to graduate college actually high school too. But hubby comes from highly educated stock. I knew that I wanted a family and made long strides and efforts to not abuse and I wanted to show LOVE. Hubby needed that. But as I had kids and I could not shower him with. All the loving attention he needed,he had EA and several flirting/getting into trouble experiences. He learned that was o.k. because his dad did it in front of him. I kicked him out after EA,but it only lasted a couple of weeks and he knew that was not going to fly in my house and it never happened again. It still really hurts. 

Your wife doesn't have the kid issues,but you know not all can be told on the forum. You know when you neglected your wife,took her for granted,maybe didn't acknowledge how she looked or felt. Both of us have read love busters and his needs her needs. I am sure she busted some of yours too,but did she do it because she was being neglected?she was angry she took care of you and you didn't return the favor? I know deep down there is still some love because I am concerned about hubby's health and what he is eating. I feel bad that he is stressed to the gills I am going to leave. I do want to stay married and would love to have the hubby respond to all the books and therapists as you have. Hubby has adhd and I have to figure out how to communicate better and how to stay patient as I am beyond fried right now. I believe marraige is fo a life time.but I am like you in that I want a partner who is going to work with me,love me nd show me he loves me. I want to be able to share my dreams with somone. I don't want anger and bitterness to be the family motto. 
I don't want to leave, but now I know I CAN leave and be ok. If he won't come with me on this journey then I have to leave. Not for just me but my kids. We all deserve to be happy and life is just too short to keep waiting.
Where your wife is concerned I think she feels pretty much like me. She is scared of this new guy and are you just being nice to get me in my comfort zone? There is also a lot of anger of things you did or did not do. In one of our many discussions,hubby was like why are you so angry? It was like a mental checklist went off on everything the man had ever done! Yet not once did I see what my anger had done to him. Niether has your wife.she can justify everything she did to you by what you did to her first!
Let's say we are on an even playing field and my hubby and me were exactly like you and your wife. If my hubby had a lightening bolt hit him and all the sudden did all the things you have done to rectify our marraige and I was still angry and insisting I want a divorce. I think if he came up to me and said listen, I am willing to give you a divorce. I want you to be happy. I am planning to stay true to our marraige until we sign the divorce ppers. All I want is to be sure that we have used every avenue to save our marraige and to keep us from looking back later and knowing we had made a huge mistake and lost each other to all this anger. How about two months of marraige counseling,while we wait for the house to sell. Let's focus on what I did to you and why you feel all this anger. I would be hesitant yet I would do it. First, if I commit to two months and you will give me a divorce without anymore stalling,it is worth it. Two, I get to tell somebody else how miserable you made me hoping they will take my side(I would not want Turnera there, she sees both sides!haha) but I think if you can get that wall to break,you will be surprised what comes out. Keep calm(hubby just learned this technique and I just want to bang my head against a wall because I try to get a reaction when I am upset. Not so much since reading the books. Wifey I bet does the same but it probably doesn't hit her she does it.
You have to figure out how to break that wall,once it goes,healing can start.that is where I am at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Been a long day I picked out several recipes from my new books and went to the store and bought everything I needed. Took me all day but I made enough stuff for my roommate and I for lunches and dinners for at least a week. I am proud of my self I never really cooked anything before.

I couldn’t resist I snapped a picture on my phone and sent it to my wife.

Wife has a new pic up on face book of the dog. Wife is sick with the flew I guess. In the background I can see she is wearing my collage sweatshirt. I saw that and I was like wtf that is my shirt. 

Tamara thank you again for sharing your feelings and story. It helps. I realize I need to work on getting my wife to let her guard down but I don’t know what to do other than be consistent. She hasn’t ended the affair. In the last several months she has let her guard down off and on a few times but it seems to go right back up again. We have been through counseling process. It was going well. However it suddenly came to a head when I learned of her continuing the affair followed by that she announced she wanted a divorce.

I don’t know what else I can do she tells me she doesn’t love me enough to try and that she doesn’t want me in her life. The affair has continued and the guard is way up still after everything.

All this anger and resentment is her own stuff I am guilty of many things in our marriage but I don’t believe I deserve to be treated the way I have been. Also what is worst my love extinguisher that I didn’t know bothered her or her full blown affair and all the mean cruel things she has said to me in the process. Sorry this makes me sound winy like I am the victim.

JAR


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## turnera

You should ask for your shirt back.

Fall? Fall?!

We just now hit below 90 degrees during a front, and it feels like winter!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think that you had an honest conversation with your wife. She expressed her feelings she felt at the time. She still loves you. Remember when this all started her version was she didn't love you. She was angry. She was mentally abusive to you. 
The affair continues in its weakened state. You are being competitive. I don't think you should cooperate with her on the divorce. She could have filed by now and she hasn't. She is waiting for you to cave in. Don't. You don't talk divorce. 
It is still all about her. She is selfish. It was nice od you to send her those pictures but I doubt very much she cared about that at all. You mentioned she has the flu. Check on her. If she is quite sick maybe you can help out with some little things. Just bring her a meal. Don't ask. You need to step up and do the things that need to be done. Chicken soup? Ask if you can pick up something for her at the store or run an errand? (Just mention it casually.) Can you pick up her dry cleaning. Text her this morning asking her if she is "Feeling better?". 
Did she have family over despite the fadt she was feeling bad? Did you have any contact with them?


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## tamara24

Jar, you are by far the least whiniest person I know. Deep down she knows she needs to own up to the things she did wrong in the marraige but it is easiest to blame you. She is the onethat had the affair and she is justifying it by everything that went wrong in the marraige.
I really think the OM is hardly in the picture. She might be seeing him now and then,but I really don't think the affair is full throttle anymore. 
Theway I see it is that you have two options. She has the flu. Good time to make love kindlers. I would not even ask her. I would pack a few things up to stay, go get some sprite, crackers and chicken soup. Homeade is better in a crock pot and add brown rice to it,it has more nutrients than regular chicken soup.. ,buy kleenex with the menthol in them, this helps with nausea as well as sniffles. Blow her out of the water andtake charge. When she asks wtf are you doing. Reply,I listened to what you said about you always taken care of everybody and me,now your sick and I am your husband and I am going to take care of you for a change.mind you she is not feeling good,her guard will be down. When she is tired, get n electric blanket and warm the bed before she gets in it. Run her a bath,light a candle. You can also but johnson baby menthol in her bath water to sooth her. Get her in a comfort zone. If she melts down you know you re getting close to the wall. Push her a little. Repeat, I have changed and I love you until the day we sign the divorce papers. Be there and look for those love kindlers. If you ask her anything at this point she will tell you no,just because she can't allow herself to say yes. You know your wife, do the things you know she needs.

Your second option is to totally ignore her. Resist calling and texting. She will get taste of what it is like to be truly alone. But be prepared this will reinforce old insecurities and prove you are not there for her. This could swing both ways. By the way, your shirt on when she is sick. It comforts her.she will say shejust dragged it on, but it is a sense of comfort.she just won't realize that.

If wifey was well, I would opt.the second choice but right now you are missing an oppurtunity for love kindlers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wow, excellent post, tamara. Jar, reread it and use it.


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## jessi

Jar, 
I have read what has happened in the last get together with your wife and I think she is trying to tell you that she wants the marriage to be over but she still cares for you on some level, 
I think she is still in the affair on some level and this is also adding to the confusion she feels about her life.....
She seems to be stuck on making some decisions for herself and she thinks this is a part of her life that she has missed....
She might be looking for you to respect that thought, I would not not contact her and just get on with your life.......If she contacts you wondering where you have been, tell her that you heard her and that you are trying to respect the decisions she seems to be making for herself.........
Tell her you understand her feelings and decisions to control her own destiny ...........
She really needs to feel you not in her life at all, don't solve anything for her, let her feel what her life is with the decisions she is chosing for herself........
I'm going to guess it won't take her long to figure out her decisions won't keep her happy like she thinks......
Be happy and show her your life will go on without her and that you can be happy without her......tell her you don't want to but that she has left you no choice but you will respect her decisions......
And then do it Jar.........


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## jar

I woke up this morning and I thought I wish I was home. I would like to take care of wife and make her feel better.

Then I read your post IAM and Tamara. I think it is another opportunity for a few love kindlers. 

So I stopped at this little organic market on market on the way in and requested them to make some good hardy chicken noodle soup. So they are and I am going to pick it up on the way home with a few other things like you suggested Tamara.

I am going to go home and try and take care of wife if she will let me. I plan to take charge on this one. She is really stubborn some times so I am sure she is going to be resistant. 

I may stay overnight that way she doesn’t half to take care of the dog.

I texted wife saying I was going to be stopping by tonight to pick up some things. I have been feeling antsy lately. I like to have a project or hobby going. I have been restoring a old milling machine for over a year now. I am going to bring the last few pieces that need to be worked on back to my place. Should be a good time filler.

I am looking at my visit as a good friend coming over to help out. Not relationship talk or anything allowed.

We will see how it goes. I am prepared for the worst.

JAR

Oh and turnara I thought of you this morning it was only 40 out this morning. During the day it is only getting up to the high 60s now.


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## jar

Jessi

I think you are correct as well.  I think that she has experienced some of what you are saying.

I am 50/50 on going and since I don’t get to many opportunities to get together with her. I am going to go because it is a good chance for kindlers.

If she wasn’t sick I think I would pull back a bit more and just leave her a lone as she has requested and asked.

It’s a bit of a conflicting decision.

JAR


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## jessi

okay jar, i hope she sees you as the great man you are........i'm worried about you, I know it's hard to be in the place you are in, I was there, when all you do is give, you lose yourself a little and I don't want to see that happen......
a partner is suppose to add to an already good life, meaning you and being happy with you from within.......
if she is caught in between her two worlds that can't be good for Jar......
I think it's time you make her decide once and for all.......


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## turnera

Remind me again...what is your time limit before you go Plan B?


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## jar

Well my plan is to go plan A until I cant take any more.

I do plan to be done with either plan A or B by next june. This is my limit. That will mark 1 year since I left home.

JAR


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## turnera

Ok. I guess that's reasonable if you think you can last that long. I don't recommend it, but you know yourself.


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## jar

Well I am hone gathering up some tools and things

Sat on the couch and watched the news for over an hour and she has said about three words to me

When I came in with soup and things to make her feel good she said she can take care of her self

And walked off

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

jar said:


> Well I am hone gathiring up some tools and things
> 
> sat on the couch and watched the news for over an hour and she has said about three words to me
> 
> when I came in with soup and things make her feel good she said *she can take care of her self*
> 
> and walked off
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then let her. Ouch...... Time to lead a life without her. Maybe for two weeks or two months, or maybe forever. After awhile, this just doesn't seem worth more effort.


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## michzz

Good God man!

If after all her toxic treatment of you, you do not see her utter disdain for you, then you never will.

Even irritated that you brought her soup?

And her comment?

Let her go. You can do better.

At this point you are just humiliating yourself.

She is not worth it.


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## OhGeesh

Jar, I'm not there I'm not a fly on the wall, but like I said before she doesn't seem interested at all.

I think you could send flowers, notes, ask questions, be cordial, buy a plane, give her a BMW, it doesn't matter. 

It seems to me she wants to move on and your "niceties" just aggravate her and make her think you can't let go.

Let go...........you say you are going to focus on you and it lasts one day or two and then you have to contact her again. 

Let it ride.............focus on your not for 24-48 hrs, but multiple days, a week. or more!

Good luck and DON'T GET YOUR HOPES UP!!


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## tamara24

I am betting,she is gonna blow! She is sick,so she feels sorry for herself and her comes nice Jar.
I bet if Jar got up and said, fine, if you want nothing else to do with me I will give you what you want. She would be texting him before he reached the next town.
Hang in there. She is sick, and crabby and try to push it. If she gets intolerable, then you decide how much you can take. Did it ever occur to you that OM is not there taking care of his beloved. Even if the agreement was that she not bring him into your home, why is he not insisting she stay at his? How would you know if he was there? My thought is he is not as close as before.
If after all this, she can't see the good in you then I would go to option number two. What is a few days if it canbring you a lifetime of happiness. What is a few days if it confirms that you need to move on? Either way, at least you will know. That right there, is worth trying a few love kindlers.
We can all tell you what to do, but you are the one that has to say when to pull the plug. I told you anger would be there. Just hang on tight for the roller coaster ride. Keep calm and try to be there when she is in need. 
If she gets real snotty, tell her you came to take care of the dog,she is nicer to you. That will get her!hehe!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh

I'm glad you see it that way! I surely don't maybe that's because I've seen very very few reconciliations after a affair even if the TOM or TOW doesn't work out.

In some cases it's have your cake and eat it too in those situations maybe........this doesn't seem like that. It seems like she's done.

Good luck again Jar you are a stronger man than me because I would be GONE! If she wants to come chase me fine............I'm not begging!!


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## jar

So Like I said earlier I went home to get a few tools and so I can finish my milling machine project. 

Wife didn’t go to work today. Sick day….She didn’t look to to bad….

The local market made her some really nice local grown organic soup with lots of healing mojo in it as the owner of the market told me.

I stopped at the drug store and got her a Vicks plug in kind of like a glade plug in. Also picked up some night time and day time flu pills. I also picked up a couple of those fashion types of girly magazines. The ones that say things on the cover like 50 sexy makeover tips for fall. She likes those form time to time.

So I drove an hour home. I gave her the things I got her. She told me she had already eaten and that she doesn’t want me to do these kinds of things for her and that she is capable of taking care of her self. She walked off and went into the living room after staring at me for a minute not knowing what to say. All II said was hay you took care of me when I was sick now I am trying to do the same.

Wife also had enough of the dog for the evening. I played with the dog for a while. Dog likes to cuddle on the couch with her humans so she hung out with me on the couch for an hour. We watched the news for an hour I basically couldn’t get much of a conversation going with wife.

On the way home wife started texting me asking serial numbers and wireless logon for her laptop. Apparently it got a virus or something and she wiped the hard drive. She got it up and running her self today I guess. She needs serial numbers for a few programs. I have all that stuff at my place. I am the guy that normally does all the computer stuff. I told her I could email it to her and she just said she would figure it out. Old jar would have worked on the computer. New jar won’t touch that computer because I feel it enables the affair.

So I packed up all the things I needed and it took me a while to gather. By the time I started packing my car up she came out to check on what I was doing. 

She was starting to soften a little bit before I left. She would fool around with her computer then watch TV then look at me and the dog. If I caught her eye she would look away real quick.

So I drove over an hour back to my place. I texted told her I was back and asked her to at least try the soup before she threw it away because it was special. She actually acknowledges my text and wanted to know where I got it from. So I told her the story.

I hear you guys when you say get over it. I hear you when you say go no contact. Tonight went how I expected. I wish it had gone differently. Plan A for me for now I still have more left in me. I will remind you I went no contact already once for over 2 months. She always initiated contact through email or text at least once a week about something stupid. I am tacking care of my self. I am not getting my hopes up here. I am feeling pretty good about myself these days. I am way past the angry panic in shock faze here. I dont beg

JAR


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## LilBit35

Jar-
I dont even know what to say....It seems like you are doing everything right and most of us see that! Im sorry that she hasnt but I am shocked at the will power you have. I do hope that your wife opens her eyes before its too late! Good Luck!


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## jar

I hope so to.


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## LilBit35

Jar-
I have read everything you have written on here since your first post.....
Do you ever just have a day that you wanna say "F" it?


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## tamara24

The point is that you are there. She will see it eventually but you have to decide when you have had enough. In the meantime,just show her that you have changed and evolved into a better man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Just got a text from wife it read

Thank you for the soup it was really good. Sorry to seem unappreciative just really please u don’t need to do stuff for me.

I haven’t responded yet.

Yeah I have bad days every now and again but I am too stubborn to throw in the towel just yet. As IAM says Patience. Things have gotten a lot better I am out of that shocks faze. On the bad days I try to remember the fun days. I still vividly remember the day I woke up and came to the conclusion I wanted to marry this woman.

That day I went to this old school jeweler and we designed her ring. The next few days he hand made the ring. Just as soon as he finished the wring I proposed July 3 05. I remember that day vividly. One of the clearest decisions I made in my life. I new I wanted spend my life with my wife. I realize she has changed a lot in the past several months but I still have hope we can get back to a loving better marriage and relationship. Normally she is a very sweat loving nice person. I also am to the point that I realize things will be ok with out her. It is not a path a choose just yet.

JAR


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## michzz

jar said:


> Thank you for the soup it was really good. Sorry to seem unappreciative just really please u don’t need to do stuff for me.
> 
> 
> JAR


Translation: I don't appreciate it and I don't want you doing stuff for me. I find it annoying because I know why you are doing it. It will not work, I do not want you back in my life. I just don't have the courage to say this directly when you keep doing this stuff.


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## land2634

jar said:


> Just got a text from wife it read
> 
> Thank you for the soup it was really good. Sorry to seem unappreciative just really please u don’t need to do stuff for me.
> 
> I haven’t responded yet.


She says not to do stuff because maybe, just maybe, she sees this side of you that she likes. It would be SO much easier for her to move on without you if you weren't being so darned supportive and loving toward her. You're doing great. No matter what happens in the end, you'll be able to say you loved your wife much beyond feelings as long as you possibly could.


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## jessi

Jar, 
I'm not a quitter either, even though I'm sure you have had your days when you questioned whether things will ever change, me too.....
I went with my gut and the little voice in my head and it has always told me to not give up and to fight for what I have......

I don't know if we will stay together for our lives but I do know I have tried everything and challenged myself as a person, I have found out what I'm made of inside and that in itself is a good thing.....
I will prayer for you and your marriage.......


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## LilBit35

Jar-
I wish there were more men like you I can say that! Do they sell one of you at Wal-mart?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I see it as Land and Tam see it. Glass half full. Be patient. The glass was nearly empty when you started posting. She came around today. When I bought my wife flowers she told me not to give her anything any more. When I bought her a potted plant she was overjoyed. Just don't over do it. Next time just the soup.


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## jar

So here is today’s email from wife.

Her B day is on the 7th...

Dog and I will be going to the vet on Friday Oct 8th at 11am for her fall visit and vaccines. She also is getting her rabies shot. I was also wondering if you might want to take her that weekend because I will be headed to families and Saturday am suppose to spend the whole day shopping with Mom and sis. Let me know what you think and I hope you don't mind I made the appointment, feel free to come if you can get the time off. I just didn't want to spend a whole Saturday morning there at the vet and was planning on taking the day off and slowly making my way to my parents anyway, so it works well for me. 

 wife

I am not sure what to do here. Wifes B day is on the 7th….Do I get her a gift or not….Maybe I could do something nice like go to house and take her out to dinner for b day and stay at home for the night and go to the vet with her…..

Or I could do nothing on all fronts.

Here is the thing though last time I took the dog it enabled the affair. I am 85% sure she went to the coast with the OM. I love spending time with dog but I am not sure I want to go out of my way that much.

Also she keeps saying she can take care of her self when I do things for her. The interesting thing is she is the one asking for help and my cooperation here. When the only thing I have asked of her in the past months is to end her affair and have got nothing in return. Not to keep score or anything.

What to do….Its a good opportunity to do some love kindlers. Interesting she made the appointment the day after her b day…

Jar


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## turnera

It sounds like she *planned *on you taking the dog so she could go out of town? I think that's stretching your kindness a little. I don't believe in being TOO available and helpful. In fact, NOT being available may make her think about you a little more, as in...what's he got going that he can't take dog?


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## Affaircare

> So here is today’s email from wife.
> 
> Her B day is on the 7th...
> 
> _Dog and I will be going to the vet on Friday Oct 8th at 11am for her fall visit and vaccines. She also is getting her rabies shot. I was also wondering if you might want to take her that weekend because I will be headed to families and Saturday am suppose to spend the whole day shopping with Mom and sis. Let me know what you think and I hope you don't mind I made the appointment, feel free to come if you can get the time off. I just didn't want to spend a whole Saturday morning there at the vet and was planning on taking the day off and slowly making my way to my parents anyway, so it works well for me.
> 
> wife_
> 
> I am not sure what to do here. Wifes B day is on the 7th….Do I get her a gift or not….Maybe I could do something nice like go to house and take her out to dinner for b day and stay at home for the night and go to the vet with her…..


The first thing I would do is discreetly check with mom and sis if the plan to go out shopping is real. Maybe use the excuse of the birthday and say that you heard she was going shopping with them and you'd like to get her a giftcard to a store they're likely to go to ... so she can pick something she likes! (Kills two birds with one stone.) 

If they confirm, ask which or what kind of stores they'll be going to (department stores, craft stores, or whatever) and for her birthday gift, you can get her a giftcard to XYZ Store where she's going with her mom and sis tomorrow. 

If they deny or act "confused" you can just cover by saying, "Oh I'm sorry I must have mixed it up somehow. I was SURE she said it was this weekend but I could be wrong. I guess I'll just get a Visa giftcard or something...." and don't worry about it. Then you'll know she's covering for the affair. 

I think you really do need to get her something for her birthday--for it to go by unacknowledged might hurt her. But taking her out to dinner and staying overnight to go to the dog appointment might be "kind of much" especially when she's been pulling back and trying to act like she doesn't need you. Between you and me, I think she's trying to convince HERSELF of something--sort of like when you know you are in love but you try to convince yourself you're not. Thus my thought is possibly to plan a small, surprise get-together (like with a 4-6 friends and a BBQ) if she is an extrovert and her friends are important to her (that way it's not about "you and her" but more clearly about her and her birthday)....or plan just a small but meaningful acknowledgement from you that is purely about HER and HER ENJOYMENT and something meaningful to her, her personality type, and her love language. 



> Here is the thing though last time I took the dog it enabled the affair. I am 85% sure she went to the coast with the OM. I love spending time with dog but I am not sure I want to go out of my way that much.


After checking with mom and sis you should have a better gauge on this, but if you still have a doubt, I'd suggest just telling her out loud, "I would be happy to take the dog so you can have an enjoyable birthday weekend with your mom and sister, and I would be happy to spend time with the dog! But I would not be willing to help you so the affair is easier, not would it be okay with me to be watching the dog so you can spend time with another man. You're free to make the choice but if that's the true case, please make other arrangements and don't use me." 

It doesn't have to be mean or harsh, but you also don't need to duck the truth, JAR. Call it what it is. Speak the truth right out loud--no need for you to be ashamed or afraid to say it. The only person who would need to fear hearing the truth is her, and that's ONLY when she is hiding the truth and being deceitful. 



> Also she keeps saying she can take care of her self when I do things for her. The interesting thing is she is the one asking for help and my cooperation here. When the only thing I have asked of her in the past months is to end her affair and have got nothing in return. Not to keep score or anything.


I totally get what you mean--it's not a "keep score" thing but more like a statement of facts where they stand. Right now the fact IS that she is getting some of her needs met by you (lawn, help getting the house on the market, watching the dog, care when she's sick). Right now the fact is that she probably doesn't like the fact that she has to depend on you but also is using that dependence to have her cake and eat it too a little. 

So do you remember when Tanelorn and I said that we thought it might be time to start considering Plan B/Consequences? I re-iterate that suggestion and here's why. Yes, you may have a bit more "gas" in you to go longer--in fact I have no doubt of that--but in order to execute the good Plan A/Carrot & Stick that you have, there had to be a little planning and mental preparation and such didn't there? Before you were doing a good job, you had to get yourself together, get your head on straight, learn some things like her personality type and love language...and then figure out how to apply some of it...and then practice doing it! So it wasn't instant and to get properly prepared, it took awhile. Same here for Plan B/Consequences. 

I do believe you have done a GREAT job of demonstrating to her that you can be the man she fell in love with. I firmly believe she does have feelings for you and is sort of fighting them. I believe she can see and has seen that you are still you, JAR, but you've learned and grown and are a better, new man. I just as firmly believe that she knows darn well the right thing to do and is refusing to do it! That means that she is basically sitting on the fence, using you for what she can get out of you, and cake eating...and JAR be honest with yourself: no one can continue being used forever without eventually some resentment building up. Resentment is the #1 love killer and the hugest love extinguisher. 

So time to begin the process of considering Plan B/Consequences. To consider, you would think about things like a possible deadline (like Thanksgiving or after the holidays maybe). How long to you think you can hold on knowing that you're being used and she's not reciprocating or coming out of the fog voluntarily? (My point being that it might be a longer time if she said she'd quit her job and end the affair...but was having a hard time coming out of the fog...) And don't say "A year" because you are starting to get frustrated now and bits of resentment are coming out now. That means love extinguishers will start squirting out on the side, and those are counter productive. To consider, you would think about who you might use as a human intermediary because Plan B/Consequences means you have NO CONTACT with her. You don't call her, email her, IM her and you don't accept her calls or emails or IMs. This is not to punish her, remember, but rather as a way to sort of poke her off the fence! Right now she's acting like, "I can do it myself!"...and Plan B/Consequences let's her face the real REALITY of what it would really be like. 

Finally you say that you already went no contact for two months and "it didn't work." Well, no not really. You found out about her affair and left in a fit of anger. Thus, the last memory of you she had in her mouth was JAR doing all the love extinguishers for months...ignoring her, treating her like 3rd or 4th down the list...and then he left in a rage! She had no direction how to get out of it, no hope you could change, no feelings for you, nothing. NOW it is entirely different. Her last impressions of you are a guy who took care of her while she was sick, a guy who watches the dog, a guy who takes care of the house, a guy who takes her out for JeepDay... She also has directions how to get out of it and knows that you WANT her and would take her back. She also has not only HOPE that you can change but proof that you already have! So your Plan B/Consequences is actually just like Plan A/Carrot & Stick--it is the STRONGEST, MOST LIKELY WAY to wake her up and help her end the affair and return to you. it is a message that says to her; "See I can change and I do want you, and we can do this. I'm even willing to be patient and loving to you for a while as you treat me badly. But to be in a marriage with me, it has to be 100% affection and loyalty to me. I won't accept less."


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## jar

That gives me a lot to think about in the next week or two.

I did chat with her sis the other night on FB so the ice has been broken there and I would feel comfortable asking her about shopping etc.

I think you are right about just coming out and saying it with the dog and the OM.

One thing that my wife and I share in common is we are both stubborn she is a little more than I.

The b day gift I will have to put some thought into. She is a big book reader person. So....That is something to think about.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I like the book idea. Not too personal. Not lovey dovey. How about an interesting trilogy and a funny card? Just enough but not over the top.


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## jar

I have given a lot of thought to plan B. I think if I can keep it together though the fall. My plan will be to start Plan B Jan 1 after the holidays. This will mark 1 year since I discovered the affair. My drop dead date to end Plan B will be June 1. This will be exactly 1 year since I left home. That is what I am thinking right now. I hope I have the patience to continue on.

Wife has been paying the bills and has been forwarding me payment receipts the past day or two.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Do you remember what Harley told you when you took that session with him? You have been following the plan. Nothing out of whack has happened lately. It has been relatively smooth.


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## jessi

Jar, 
I wouldn't be so quick to take the dog so she can be free to do what she wants......maybe you have something you will be doing.....
I would just send her a card for her B-Day and keep it simple, just wishing you a good day.....nothing lovey........
This is a perfect day for her to feel Jar not in her life........if you have always been there and you aren't this year, she might actually miss you ..........I agree with the above post, let her feel what it is going to be like without you solving and taking care of things for her........she can do it, let her........hang in there....


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## tamara24

I would do as AC suggest, call mom and sis and see if that really is the plan. If it is, then I suggest something thoughtful,not over the top anda gift card to use. You don't want mom and sis to ask her why you called them and did not continue with your plan.
If, in fact, this is a meeting with the OM. I would email wife. I am sorry, but I have made plans already for that weekend. Please let me know what the vet says about the dog.
Wife is not sick now and I don't think her treatment of you and her apology is very sincere. I think she butters you up then asks you to take the dog.
Another thought, if she is telling the truth, and you want to take the dog,ask her if she would like to go for dinner and that you would like to stay at the house while caring for the dog.maybe leave some flowers for her bday.
I think you can still pull off some love kindlers, but don't be a doormat for her.
It seems you have a plan and if you are comfortable with it,I say go for it. But I also think pulling back a little and letting wife see just exactly what it is like not having you around or at her beck and call,will shake her into reality. Also remember, don't keep score now, or you will always expect her to give back to you and she will disappointed over and over. This will create more love bank withdrawls and you will start resenting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Wife just texted me and told me we owe some extra money on property taxes that was not escrowed this past year with our mortgage.

She wants to pull the money from an account that I do not approve of.

She texted all this to me instead of calling to discus and asked what I think. 

I haven’t responded yet. This kind of stuff really annoys me and happens every year.


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## michzz

Is the account specifically for property tax payments? Or does she take money out of it for other things and now there is not enough for taxes?

I'd want to see the bank statements for the last year if i were you.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> Wife just texted me and told me we owe some extra money on property taxes that was not escrowed this past year with our mortgage.
> 
> She wants to pull the money from an account that I do not approve of.
> 
> She texted all this to me instead of calling to discus and asked what I think.
> 
> I haven’t responded yet. This kind of stuff really annoys me and happens every year.


Oh this is easy, JAR. It's a W-T-F-S. 

"I do not agree with pulling money out of the XYZ account. 
*When you* propose to pull money out of that account...
*I think* it is unwise because (state your reasons here) and *I think* it is unfair because (state reasons here).
*I feel* like I'm being used and annoyed over the fact that this happens every year. *I feel* hurt over the attempt to be taken advantage of. 
*So I'm going to request that* I put in 50% from an account of my choosing that is not joint...and you put in 50% from an account of your choosing that is not joint. That way it is fair and neither one of us is taking any advantage of the other."

JAR this is how conflicts are handled in a healthy marriage. The two people to do nothing until they have an enthusiastic mutual understanding. You do not agree so you are neither enthusiastic, nor is it mutual, nor have you reached an understanding! Since you are not enthusiastic, it is your job to speak up for yourself (otherwise resentment settles in, just like when she didn't speak up that she wasn't thrilled with the house). To do your job you do not need to accuse her or call her names, etc. ... just share what you think, what you feel, and propose what WOULD work for you. 

Okay? Got it?


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## jar

Hey Affaircare

Thank you for the reminder of the when, think, feel. I appreciate it. 

One of these days I will get this through my head.

JAR


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## Affaircare

:lol: :rofl: Actually...

...as you can tell I teach this stuff to others and even *I* forget it when I get emotional! Seriously I'm an F (feeler) personality, and when my emotions swell it's like all my ability to think at all rationally flies right out the window. 

So don't be too discouraged if you don't "get it through your head." I still forget sometimes myself!


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## jar

I had an ok day today a JAR day

I went to work for a while to work on a personal project in the shop.

Took a nap watched a movie in the afternoon.

I went to a dinner party with my landlord and neighbors tonight it was nice.

I am having a lonely day....I really miss having a companion to spend time with....Really miss spending time with wife.... on a chili afternoon we use to sit on the couch watching movies with a toasty fire going in the fireplace....really lonely today and miss that time.


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## turnera

Better days ahead, jar.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Your regular followers are thinking about you. Hopefully you feel a little less lonely knowing we are with you.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

At least here you know that many of us can relate to that loneliness. Thinking of you and hoping you have a nice week ahead.


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## Affaircare

Hope today is a better day...


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## lost_february

Wow, that was a lot of reading...

I'm proud of you jar, you're going to be alright


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## jar

Thanks for all the nice regards.

I am feeling a little bit better today. Maybe because I am back at work and around people that I like.

Yesterday I went dirt biking with my roommate and I also took lots of pictures with my new camera. So it was a fun day and I met some new people. 

Wife emailed me about the dog and the mortgage situation again yesterday. I finally got back to her about my thoughts and feelings about the situation and possible solutions.

I tried to really follow the think feel motto and also use some of the things I have read from love busters like mutual agreements and working together to find a solution. No love busting

I haven’t got back to her about the dog.

Wife’s bday is this week I am just going to send her a generic visa gift card and humorous card. Keep it simple. I will email her that day and wish her a happy bday and offer to take her out to dinner or something. I highly doubt she will accept my invitation to dinner. I am not sending flowers or anything like that.

This will be the first bday I have not spent with her. It makes me sad to think about it….Her family doe not live near by either so I imagine for the most part she will be spending the evening alone or with the OM. Maybe her work friends will do something for her.

JAR


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## jessi

Hi jar, 

Glad you are feeling better and staying busy, this is what your plan should be......
You are doing plenty on her B-day, it's her choice to have this relationship with you, let her spend the day alone, let her feel what her choices get her........
I know what that feels like myself, my B-Day is on Sunday and the last one I had my husband who was still living with me but in the middle of his affair didn't even wish me a happy B-Day, no card, nothing.......It hurt at the time. 
Days like this and holidays really set things into reality, I hope she will come to some kind of awakening when it comes to what is important to her now.......
Hang in there, enjoy your week.........


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## turnera

That reminds me. Over at mb, we often advised BSs to enact their Plan B (total dark, no contact with WS at ALL) right before the upcoming holidays (in America). I can't think of a more powerful wakeup call than to have to go through Thanksgiving, Christmas (or Hannukah), and New Year's without your family. It got a lot of waywards to sit up and realize what they were throwing away - not just the spouse, but the life.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> That reminds me. Over at mb, we often advised BSs to enact their Plan B (total dark, no contact with WS at ALL) right before the upcoming holidays (in America). I can't think of a more powerful wakeup call than to have to go through Thanksgiving, Christmas (or Hannukah), and New Year's without your family. It got a lot of waywards to sit up and realize what they were throwing away - not just the spouse, but the life.


That's very true Turnera. It can go both ways. Keep the apron strings or cut them.

It's enlightening either way.

Bob


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## jar

Just wanted to share my email to wife and her response. Apparently I hurt her feelings. I wasn’t trying to do that. In the past when I have tried to express my frustration etc she can’t handle it and ends up with hurt feelings for some reason. Was I being hurt full or mean and did I have any love busters? Or did I

Hey Wife
I just was writing this email when I received this one. I haven’t forgotten about you and have been thinking about this all weekend.
When you propose to pull money out of our money market account it really upsets me. It feels like we are breaking the rules and deviating from our agreed plan for when we set the money market account up. We set that money a side for college loan payments and at this point there isn’t enough in the account to cover our outstanding balance. We have ended up using the account as our slush fund for when we get over our head with credit card payments or taxes. It makes me feel really worried and anxious for the day when the money is gone the collage loans are still due and we have a big tax payment like this due. I really think it is unwise to pull money from this account mostly because in the past we have not been disciplined to put the money back in. It also makes me really frustrated that we seem to get hit with this and a bunch of unexpected taxes every year. 
So I have a few ideas and I hope that we can both come to an agreement that we are conferrable with.
So I am just going to list a few options that I can see us doing
Pay the bill with the money market account although I am uncomfortable with this.
We could pay the bill with the money market account and then we both could contribute xxx dollars a month in replenishing that account until the xxxx is replaced.
We could use xxxx dollars from our joint savings and each contributes xxxx from our personal accounts. I know you like to have money in the savings for extra security. We could then both contribute xxx a month to the joint savings account to replenish savings and also plan for next year when this happens again. Xxx is really a stretch for me right now but I can do it.
Or we could do some combination of all of the above. It is really important to me that we replenish the money we are going to use and also plan for next years tax bill the best we can so this doesn’t happen. It seems the bank is missing something some where. Maybe we have to be more proactive about calling them and making sure things are squared away with our escrow account.
I really want to work together as a partner on figuring this out with you. It is also really important to me that we come to agreement that we both enthusiastically agree on. Which I think will be some combination of my ideas and yours. A win win so to say. Something where we are both comfortable with the decision and where we haven’t given in to the other for one reason or another.
Love
jar

Jar
I'm fine with taking the money from the joint savings like you proposed. However this is not the banks fault, this is because both our taxes and the insurance cost more again this year. If you want to be upset at someone be upset at insurance company or the city. Last year we actually got back xxx dollars from our escrow account. And yes the tax thing frustrates me as well. However I am pretty hurt by your email and this is pretty much all i can say right now with out sending you a horrible email.
I think that the sooner you can put in your amount in the joint checking then I will move the money from the joint savings to the joint checking and write the check to bank. The actual amount owed is xxxx.
wife


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## land2634

I don't really see anything there that should have upset her. You did the best you could and didn't hide your feelings. You were honest without being rude I think. I think she just wants to be upset because you didn't agree to her original idea. The only thing I could see is that in her reply, she doesn't seem to be in enthusiastic agreement. Maybe send a follow-up and ask if she has any more ideas you two could consider and make sure she knows you aren't disagreeing just to be hurtful to her, that you are genuinely concerned and don't want to hide that fact.


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## notreadytoquit

I agree with land. I did not see anything offensive in your letter. Sounds to me like she wants to pick up a fight where there is not one.


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## jar

I dont get it either...:scratchhead:


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## notreadytoquit

She is just having one of those "I don't know what I want moment". Don't worry too much


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## tamara24

What she heard was it was my fault that we use the money market account wrong. You are mad at me over the taxes being higher. I am not disciplined enough to put the money back.

I don't think you wrote anything wrong, just reading between the lines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jessi

Maybe she just expects you to handle things for her.......have you always been the one to do stuff like this?
I think your email is appropriate in the situation, you are separated and should decide together how to go about the financial stuff.......
There shouldn't be any blame the two of you have just lived your life and this is the way it is now, try to solve the problem in the most beneficial way financially to both of you......
You are showing respect in asking her opinions on the solution.....a united front........
You did nothing wrong Jar............ask her for her feedback and then tackle the solution together......


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## jar

Tamara

Do you really think that I made her feel like she did something wrong.

It’s not what I think or what I wrote. I don’t think it is her fault at all and that is not what I said.

Hmmmm….This is a good example of how our personality clash.

JAR


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## turnera

jar said:


> Jar
> I'm fine with taking the money from the joint savings like you proposed. However this is not the banks fault, this is because both our taxes and the insurance cost more again this year. If you want to be upset at someone be upset at insurance company or the city. Last year we actually got back xxx dollars from our escrow account. And yes the tax thing frustrates me as well. However I am pretty hurt by your email and this is pretty much all i can say right now with out sending you a horrible email.
> I think that the sooner you can put in your amount in the joint checking then I will move the money from the joint savings to the joint checking and write the check to bank. The actual amount owed is xxxx.
> wife


This is manipulation.

She has probably been treating people this way her whole life, because it works.

Telling you that you hurt her makes you feel like you have to defend yourself. Instantly, she has power and you have none.

It's a very subtle thing, I'm sure she doesn't even realize she does it.

All you can do is NOT accept responsibility for her feelings. "I'm sorry you feel that way. I said nothing hurtful, you chose to interpret things your way; nothing I can do about that."


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## tamara24

You said nothing wrong this is an insecurity on HER end. You told her honestly how you felt. If she has been taking care of the financials,as I am guessing she did as she sends you statements and payment info and stuff.although your approach was not wrong in any way,she is not use to this direct Jar and somebody wanting to be partners in the situation. She also has guilt.
I agree with Turnera, don't accept responsibilty for how she felt.she needs to deal with it. If you don't let her, she will manipulate the matter or other matters.sit down and discuss it with her. Let her know that you appreciate all she has done, but you are trying to lessen that burden by becoming a real partner to her. Do not let her use you as that doormat. Just stay firm and keep talking.
This is how she will open up.
By the way,good plans for bday but don't wait until last minute to ask her to dinner. She will build with resentment if you make her wait. However, if she says no, just say ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

> I'm fine with taking the money from the joint savings like you proposed. However this is not *the banks fault*, this is because both our taxes and the insurance cost more again this year.


Up to this point her reply is pretty factual. She makes a statement that she agrees to the joint savings proposal and she indicates how the miscalculation occurred. Costs rise. Miscalculations occur. There is no "fault" to be placed and your letter to her did not even imply anyone was "at fault." Throughout your whole email you kept the focus on you and sharing what YOU thought and felt, and you gave several options that would work for you. So up to this point, her reply is appropriate (although "...the bank's fault" is just kind of odd). 



> *If you want to be upset at someone be upset at insurance company or the city.* Last year we actually got back xxx dollars from our escrow account. And yes the tax thing frustrates me as well.


Note how she assumes that if you are "upset" then you are upset at SOMEONE. My guess is that she assumes you think it is her fault and she thinks you are upset AT HER. However, also please note that nowhere in your email do you state or suggest that! So this is her issue, in that she is assuming you are upset "at someone" and then leaps again to assume you are "upset at her." 

Also note though that her reaction is defensive and blaming. She blames the insurance company and the city. A mature adult might react with some level of personal responsibility, such as, "You have a good point. In the past I did not discipline myself to replace that money, so even though I disagree I can see why you'd be concerned." Nowhere do I see her taking any personal responsibility...just deflecting blame. 



> However I am pretty hurt by your email and this is pretty much all i can say right now with out sending you a horrible email.


Here she is pretty much assigning you responsibility for her feelings. You MADE her feel hurt. Well, JAR, we all know that emotions are a choice that we make ourselves, so if she feels hurt, that is a choice that SHE made. You are not responsible for what she chooses, and yet here she pretty much is threatening you with "a horrible email" because you MADE her feel hurt. 

JAR, these are not the replies of a mature, individualized, self-aware person. She is not taking personal responsibility for herself, her choices or her feelings--furthermore, she is assigning responsibility for her own lack of discipline, her own choices, and her own FEELINGS to you! 

Based on this reply I agree with turnera (who by the way still has not reported to work!) and tamara. Turnera's reply of "I'm sorry you feel that way. I said nothing hurtful, you chose to interpret things your way; nothing I can do about that" does come across a little cranky-pants (even though it's PRECISELY true!) so I suggest that rather than focusing on her and how you think SHE interpreted it, etc. that you keep your focus on YOU and sharing yourself. Share your reality, your thoughts and feelings, that kind of thing: 

_Wife~

Huh, it's interesting that you interpreted this as situation with blame and fault, and then chose to be hurt by it. In my mind it wasn't anyone's fault, just a miscalculation about which I chose to feel frustrated. Thankfully we've reached an understanding about how to resolve the miscalculation in a way that we both find agreeable, so I find that even my frustration is waning. I'll transfer funds to joint checking tomorrow.

~JAR_


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## jar

So I responded to wife’s email tonight. I wanted to know why her feelings are hurt with my previous email. It would seem I struck a nerve. It would also seem that our finances and the way I have spoken to her about them in the past is a big love extinguisher. 
I guess I want to add in she has always handled the finances because she informed me she was handling them when we bought our home. When ever I have gotten involved or asked questions etc it hasn’t gone well. Even when she brought up the fact she would like some help paying bills etc in therapy I would sit by her said and help write checks and file things away and she would be a bit nasty in the process.
In the past when I have recommended things that we could change in the bill paying process or ways we could plan better it never went well…She finally admitted it made her feel like she was doing something wrong…Not how I felt or what I said….Also I never yelled or screamed just tried to have a calm conversation….So I kept my hands off this aspect of our life.
From my point of view I don’t understand….In the past she asked for my involvement but then when I do get involved she doesn’t want my help even when the marriage was good…In the past she wanted to know my feelings about things but when I do express them it would seem that she interprets them differently and twists them all around…Also I am not a big share of feelings so when she says things like this to me in these emails it doesn’t make me feel like it is a safe place to share.
I don’t get her at all. It would seem the fog is thick right now…She never use to be this way…I have no interest in being married to her if we cant work out daily things calmly…I just don’t get it….. 


Hey Wife

I have re read my email to you a few times and I am not sure how I hurt your feelings. I was trying to express to you my feelings of the situation as well as some additional ideas to consider. I was also trying to express I want to be your partner in this. Your response you sent me doesn’t make me think that you whole hardly agree with my idea. I would really like to work to find a solution that we both are comfortable with I don’t want a debate or an argument or anything I just want to find a solution we both feel good about..
If your feelings are hurt because you feel I am frustrated in some way with you that is not the case. I am not annoyed with you or looking to blame you in any way. What I am annoyed with is the taxes in general and that has nothing to do with you. What I want hear is to be part of this and figure out our financials together. I was simply stating some thoughts, feelings, and things that are important to me.
Please share with me your feelings. It would really help me to know how you feel so that I can understand and hopefully not make you feel this way again.

About dogs vet appointment. Let me know if you would like me to accompany her and you to the vet. Do you think dog would like if I came. I could make it fit into my schedule.

Now for the bad news…..I really can’t take her for the weekend. I am heading down to the cape for part of the weekend. I just can’t take her this weekend. I do miss her a ton and would have like to spent the time with her this weekend but this has been in the works for a while. 

Your birthday is this week and I would love to take you out to celebrate. Let me know if you would like to get-together. Pick the place and I can make some reservations. It could be as simple as mushroom and onion pizza or an extravagant 5 coarse meal or I could whip something up and bring it. No pressure the decision is yours.

Love
JAR
XXXXXXXXXX
Hi JAR,
Our finances together are few and yes i would like to say i feel constantly blamed for things. For using money from the money market account, which it was never set in stone what the money would be used for and in the future that is still not set in stone. Also that money is money that we have used for many things for us both. Also blamed for not saving more money when i was in charge of the finances and then needing proof that i am paying the bills, i'm still physically paying for your collage loan payment from the money market account…. you do realize that right.. so yes i feel blamed. 
And still i am fine with using the money in the saving account and replenishing that, however i will not be putting more then the replenished amount in there I can come up with my own plan for saving for taxes which I will owe half and I suggest you do the same. 
As for dogs vet appointment I don't need you to come, if you want to be there its at 11am, if not then ok. No biggie about taking her for the weekend I was planning that I would have her. 
And I have plans both Wednesday and Thursday and will be heading to my parents on Friday so no thank you to the dinner offer.
Wife

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Sorry if that was harsh.. the email is still upsetting me.
Wife

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Wife
Just so you know I am not blamming you for any of the things you listed nor have I ever. 
If i were blamming you I would say it. 
Love
Jar
XXXXXXXXXXX
OK
XXXXXXXXXXXX
JAR
I also wanted to say that I know you said you felt guilty about keeping dog from me but if u want her for a few weeks or any weekend all you have to do is ask she is your dog too and she loves you. If you want to be at the vet appointment please come. Dog ofcourse would love you there. 
Wife

I got all these emails in a matter of 30min
JAR


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## jar

Affaircare

Thanks for putting this into English and making rational sense of it all. This really helps…It is not just me here….I am trying to be really sensitive here with wife…

Everyone’s responses really helps a ton…You have no idea….

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I can see how she read it that way. I read that first line as isuggesting that you were upset with her. Since everything you have been doing has been about her, I read "I am upset" as being directed at her. After that the email was balanced.


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## AFEH

Jar,
The way I see it is that she is upset because you are talking about the “future” and in terms that the two of you will be working together in the future. Whereas looks like to your wife there is no “future” for the two of you.

You’re kind of being very clingy and maybe that’s what’s upset her. You simply haven’t accepted that for her it is over between the two of you. No matter how “nice” and responsible you are being.

She just has a problem she wants to solve “right now”. The future for the two of you together doesn’t seem to have any meaning for her at all.

Bob


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## i_feel_broken

I am siding with AFEH a bit i think. She keeps telling you there is no future and you keep talking to her as if there is one. It's like you are ignoring her wishes and just talking over her in a way.

I think it's fine to tell her every so often that you have not given up and what you wish for. But you have to be careful not to seem like you are just ignoring what she is saying, unfortunately, fog or not, it may be best to acknowledge what she wants and that only she is going to be the one to make this decision.

If you keep going on about it and pestering it will make you look needy and that isn't going to make her come back.

I know it is hard to accept but I think you may need to change tact a bit.
best wishes Jar


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## jar

I am sort of done worrying about this for now and her feelings on this particular subject.

My feelings are hurt that I am not included in her birthday plans. Although it is what I expected to happen.

Trying to stay consistent and patient 


I may be going to plan B sooner than I expected

JAR


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## LilBit35

Jar-
I come back here in hopes that one day your wife will see how special you are. I admire you for your determination but I do have to wonder if she is truely moving on without you! Do you have a plan just in case? I know she hasnt filed for the big "D" so everyone says there is still hope....its not over til its over but I just dont know how you do it! I just keep hoping one day I will sign on and you will have made progress on sofening your wifes hart torwards you!


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## michzz

Go to Plan B.

I really think your wife has moved on.

Quibbling over which bank account to pay for the mortgage/taxes/fees is the tip of the iceberg.

Get your ducks in a row, it's coming. 

I agree with the other posters who tried to tell you that you are ignoring what she is telling you because you want a different outcome. Listen to what she is saying to you. 

She doesn't want you there on her birthday, doesn't need you to watch the dog, just plain doesn't want you around.

It's over, move on.


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## AFEH

jar said:


> I am sort of done worrying about this for now and her feelings on this particular subject.
> 
> My feelings are hurt that I am not included in her birthday plans. Although it is what I expected to happen.
> 
> Trying to stay consistent and patient
> 
> 
> I may be going to plan B sooner than I expected
> 
> JAR


Jar, how you are behaving, what you are doing is very obviously not getting the result you want. Not even close to what you want.

I read in your post that you plan to go on this way until the middle of next year. That's another 8 months of so of the same thing with the same results. Are you really up for that?

Life is very short Jar and it's there to be enjoyed. If you do "give up" on your wife and accept that it's truly over you will have one massive grieving process to go through. That may well take you another year at least, making a total of 19 months before you can really move on and start creating a new life without your wife.

Marriage is hard and difficult at times even if both spouses are giving it 100%. You're giving it 120% and your wife is giving it 0%, nothing.

If you do decide to let go, put it in the past and down to experience, then your wife will see a massive change in you and who knows how she will respond. You may well be in a place by that time where you wouldn’t want her back in your life anyway.

Bob


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## jessi

Jar, 
I'm sorry to say this but I think the other posters might be right..I think reading through your post your wife has indicated many times that she is finished but wants to remain friends......share the dog and wait for the house to sell.......
I know you don't want to think that your marriage is over but I think staying connected to her this way is not good for Jar......
I would rather see you move on with your life and that means going out and having fun with new friends(women) and just keeping your mind open to a new life and future.......
It's hard I know but I think it's time........try not contacting her for a few weeks, I would guess she won't contact you and that should tell you where she wants you in her life. If she does contact you asking why she hasn't heard from you, tell her that you have heard her say many times that there isn't a future for the two of you and that you are now ready to respect that if she is sure this is what she wants......
Jar, then you have to respect that........
Life is to short to not have someone that wants to share it with you, want is the operative word here Jar........
You assume that life without her will be unhappy, are you sure? Or will it just be life without her, happy living the life Jar wants and needs, spending time with new people and living a new happy life........
You have tried everything and have changed for the better, what more can you do?


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## dazedbeauty

After reading your story I couldn't help but recall that you said she was "only 18 at the time" and that you two made good money (security), and you emphasized many problems (no details but doesn't matter).

I'm thinking this thing isn't going to work. I think that she has outgrown the relationship all together, and I don't think she will settle for who ever it is she's having the affair with either. That man is simply a transition person, she is transitioning out of the relationship with you. It's not YOU either, it's her. Something inside of her is telling to move on to something else, and "grow-up."

You seem very paternal of her, meaning that you are willing to ride the emotional rollercoaster to a fault. You protect her and she's wanting to fly own her own, although she's immature, so it will be tough for her. 

I wish I could say, "Oh! Just hang in there!! It will be okay!!"

Honestly, get yourself in order for the end. I'm not trying to be dooms day, I just have a very strong feeling that you should prepare to love again in the future and just cherish the sweet memories of what once was. 
db


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## OhGeesh

I think if you give a honest read of the emails, your conversations with her, and her actions it's pretty easy to see "She is done!" 

I think what one poster said above "Give it a few weeks" not days JAR like you have been. You seem to find reasons to contact her, do things for her, show her you've changed, be patient, caring, be mindful of her feelings, her responses are:

"Don't do that"
"You don't have to do things for me"
"I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression"
"I don't love you enough to continue"
"I'll be out of town"


You've given it a shot you've tried she has seen the new JAR and she doesn't care. She wants out and wants to fly rational or not.

Give her a good JAR dryspell and maybe she'll open her eyes cause the kill em with kindness approach is clearly not working.


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## tamara24

Jar, 
You need to do what you feel is right. You know how long you can hold out.think of what you want to bring happiness to yourself. Life may not work out the way we want, but it doesn't mean you can't try.

I don't know what plan B is necessarily but I think the wife is due for exactly what she asked for. I think she is totally thoughtless with your feelings. First,she wants you to take the dog it seems,mainly when she wants a babysitter. Kennels cost money. She is nice when things go her way,but the second you don't agree,she shuts down. I go back to my original thinking with the last emails. She felt that you were blaming her. It is an insecurity on her part,but keep in mind, you have evolved. You have learned about what it takes in a marraige. You have learned to rely on yourself and still be a partner. She has not learned these things.

You need to go by your own timeline on how long you are willing to wait. In the meantime, I think a jolt of reality should be put into motion. I would not go to the vet,no contact on her bday, no gifts. Use the gift card on yourself. She does not appreciate what you have done and continue to do. She needs to get a wake up call. If she does respond to that, then you need to decide how long your waiting. In the meantime,don't be readily available to her. Limit your email replies to just the facts. No good night texts. 

I know this sounds mean, but even those little things will start to be missed. Saying goodnight gives her security. She says she wants to divorce yet she still has not filed. What holds her off? You have worked with her through everything. When you stop she threatens. I think she cares, but does not know what to do. Here you are totally changing and she sees it but doesn't believe it. I think it would be nice if you came back from your trip and had a few pics of other women on your facebook profile. I think you will get to see her reaction and if her feelings are genuine. I know it is playing dirty, but you have told her how you felt and she reciprocated and went back to the fog. Give her a nice dose of what she will be missing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

I am at a loss for words today and very sad…..

Trying to figure out what to do next….I do think that I am going to follow everyone’s advice and stay away. 

JAR


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## AFEH

jar said:


> I am at a loss for words today and very sad…..
> 
> Trying to figure out what to do next….I do think that I am going to follow everyone’s advice and stay away.
> 
> JAR


JAR my thoughts are truly with you.

It will be an exceptionally rough ride for you. If you were to see me you would see a 6ft well balanced guy, somebody who has it together, I’m told a bit of a hunk. I can be as layed back or as aggressive as the situation calls for.

But this stuff had me going back to the womb. Believe it or not what comforted me was candles and incense. I filled my room with candles, white and red and with the smell of incense. And I stayed there for quite a while, I did it for about two weeks.

You’re going to grieve JAR. But you will come out of it a new and changed man but very much the same. Bless you JAR.

Bob


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## Affaircare

I realize I'm going to be a lone voice in this crowd, but I'm a little concerned about the growing number of posts here trying to push JAR into no contact. Several sound like a serious push for divorce in my opinion, and I have to speak up and say that I disagree. 

Now, I have to say something that is difficult for me to say, but I do also see the same things that OhGeesh points out, namely that JAR shows his wife that he's changed, he's been patient and caring, has been mindful of her feelings, and her responses were:

"Don't do that"
"You don't have to do things for me"
"I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression"
"I don't love you enough to continue"
"I'll be out of town"

But I feel like I'm the only person who's seen that JAR himself has said that the deadline in his head....HIS deadline...is to keep trying and get through the holidays before Plan B/NO CONTACT, and that he's willing to be in Plan B/NO CONTACT until the anniversary of the day that he moved out (June 2011). Now I'm not saying that isn't a pretty long stretch, but it definitely shows some dedication, determination, commitment and perseverance. I also think it's a reasonable timeline, and it is JAR's timeline! It's his life--he gets to choose and he is the one who has to live with the good and bad consequences of his choices. Furthermore, some of these things are decided when the person is ready, and my guess at this point is that JAR just is not ready. 

Thus, rather than trying to "convince" him to do something he has clearly indicated he's not willing or ready to do, I'm going to make suggestions how to continue in Plan A that is both beneficial to him and to the marriage (as it's own entity). 

For a little while, with ending the mediation and preparing for the house to be on the market, it seemed as if your wife was more open and her heart was softening. I am firmly convinced that she did see (for a while) the changes you've made and it attracted her--and for a brief time there it did seem to me as if she was heading toward being happy. Then, near the time of the death of her friend, something happened and she returned to being harder hearted and very unhappy again. My educated guess is that previously there was lessening contact with the OM and you were gaining ground; then near the time of the death, contact with the OM picked up again and she went back into fog. She possibly hurt and "needed to feel better" so she returned to her fix. 

One good thing that has come of this is that I think you (JAR) can see that not all of the issues were on your side of the street. Some were--and that's your job to keep learning and growing and becoming a better man--but some really are on her side of the street. In order for you two to have a successful, happy marriage, at some point she will need to acknowledge her issues and address them. A good example came with this last "tax miscalculation" situation. Your communication with her was pretty healthy--sharing your own thoughts and feelings, and giving her several solutions that would work for you--and her communication with you was not very healthy at all! She held your responsible for her feelings, blamed you, was manipulative and insecure, etc. and those would indeed be issues she would need to address before you two could have a healthy marriage. But before this "tax miscalculation" I'm not sure you saw that--and now I think you do. 

Thus, I think for you I would recommend taking some time off of the JAR who's doing all those nice little things. #1-take a JAR-break/vacation just to recharge your batteries a little bit. Next #2 I would recommend the book "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. This book will probably be different than anything you're read about intimacy before because it doesn't concentrate on intimacy as only sexuality, but rather it focuses on how to have love and open closeness in a marriage. I recommend this book not so much for the sex parts (although that is in there) but for the parts that could help you, JAR, to get in touch with the deeper more intimate you. Whether you reconcile with your wife or not, you will want to know how to be a differentiated individual and how to express the intimate you. Finally #3 I suggest you start keeping a journal. I know I know--you HATE to write! But in your journal, as you read the book, I suggest you just write your thoughts. Write what comes to your mind, or what this part of the book reminds you of, or feelings it brings up, or anything you feel like writing down. It's for your eyes but I think the practice of expressing who you are will help you as you go through the book. 

Meanwhile, I see no reason to continue all the "nice little things" you've been doing when your wife refuses them. I would let her know though that you would be willing to do them again, but that you are honoring her request to stop. I don't think she's used to experiencing the consequences of her choices or being personally responsible, so give her that chance to grow as a woman and person, okay?


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## land2634

I don't really have much of anything to add here except that I agree completely. I see a lot of people pushing for divorce as well, and while I understand people have differing views on the correct path, I know that people like myself and Jar have chosen a path that still believes in marriage. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I know at least from me, any thoughts I can offer will, at least in this thread, be geared toward the path and plan which you are on.

I guess I had more to add to this than I thought I did, lol.



Affaircare said:


> I realize I'm going to be a lone voice in this crowd, but I'm a little concerned about the growing number of posts here trying to push JAR into no contact. Several sound like a serious push for divorce in my opinion, and I have to speak up and say that I disagree.
> 
> Now, I have to say something that is difficult for me to say, but I do also see the same things that OhGeesh points out, namely that JAR shows his wife that he's changed, he's been patient and caring, has been mindful of her feelings, and her responses were:
> 
> "Don't do that"
> "You don't have to do things for me"
> "I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression"
> "I don't love you enough to continue"
> "I'll be out of town"
> 
> But I feel like I'm the only person who's seen that JAR himself has said that the deadline in his head....HIS deadline...is to keep trying and get through the holidays before Plan B/NO CONTACT, and that he's willing to be in Plan B/NO CONTACT until the anniversary of the day that he moved out (June 2011). Now I'm not saying that isn't a pretty long stretch, but it definitely shows some dedication, determination, commitment and perseverance. I also think it's a reasonable timeline, and it is JAR's timeline! It's his life--he gets to choose and he is the one who has to live with the good and bad consequences of his choices. Furthermore, some of these things are decided when the person is ready, and my guess at this point is that JAR just is not ready.
> 
> Thus, rather than trying to "convince" him to do something he has clearly indicated he's not willing or ready to do, I'm going to make suggestions how to continue in Plan A that is both beneficial to him and to the marriage (as it's own entity).
> 
> For a little while, with ending the mediation and preparing for the house to be on the market, it seemed as if your wife was more open and her heart was softening. I am firmly convinced that she did see (for a while) the changes you've made and it attracted her--and for a brief time there it did seem to me as if she was heading toward being happy. Then, near the time of the death of her friend, something happened and she returned to being harder hearted and very unhappy again. My educated guess is that previously there was lessening contact with the OM and you were gaining ground; then near the time of the death, contact with the OM picked up again and she went back into fog. She possibly hurt and "needed to feel better" so she returned to her fix.
> 
> One good thing that has come of this is that I think you (JAR) can see that not all of the issues were on your side of the street. Some were--and that's your job to keep learning and growing and becoming a better man--but some really are on her side of the street. In order for you two to have a successful, happy marriage, at some point she will need to acknowledge her issues and address them. A good example came with this last "tax miscalculation" situation. Your communication with her was pretty healthy--sharing your own thoughts and feelings, and giving her several solutions that would work for you--and her communication with you was not very healthy at all! She held your responsible for her feelings, blamed you, was manipulative and insecure, etc. and those would indeed be issues she would need to address before you two could have a healthy marriage. But before this "tax miscalculation" I'm not sure you saw that--and now I think you do.
> 
> Thus, I think for you I would recommend taking some time off of the JAR who's doing all those nice little things. #1-take a JAR-break/vacation just to recharge your batteries a little bit. Next #2 I would recommend the book "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. This book will probably be different than anything you're read about intimacy before because it doesn't concentrate on intimacy as only sexuality, but rather it focuses on how to have love and open closeness in a marriage. I recommend this book not so much for the sex parts (although that is in there) but for the parts that could help you, JAR, to get in touch with the deeper more intimate you. Whether you reconcile with your wife or not, you will want to know how to be a differentiated individual and how to express the intimate you. Finally #3 I suggest you start keeping a journal. I know I know--you HATE to write! But in your journal, as you read the book, I suggest you just write your thoughts. Write what comes to your mind, or what this part of the book reminds you of, or feelings it brings up, or anything you feel like writing down. It's for your eyes but I think the practice of expressing who you are will help you as you go through the book.
> 
> Meanwhile, I see no reason to continue all the "nice little things" you've been doing when your wife refuses them. I would let her know though that you would be willing to do them again, but that you are honoring her request to stop. I don't think she's used to experiencing the consequences of her choices or being personally responsible, so give her that chance to grow as a woman and person, okay?


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## Tanelornpete

My advice: do ALL you can, so that in the end you can look at yourself in the mirror and be proud that you gave it everything. I am also with the minority: JAR has his own deadline, is abiding by it, and is free to change it when he determines to do so. 

In the meantime, stay the course.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR has his own deadline. I'm with JAR. She hasn't filed. She isn't ready to move on. You just need to make some personal adjustments to adapt. You've got it going JAR. Patience, patience, patience.


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## lobokies

JAR 

i know you love her so much..

credit to you and IANTOO who are very patient on facing the rollercoaster.

but i just cant stand seing both of you tormented inside. its awful for me.


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## AFEH

Personally I think JAR is demeaning himself with his approach and that could damage his soul and somewhat his manhood. Plus the way he’s going about it all his wife’s abusive behaviour is not only not being punished but he’s rewarding it with yet more love, affection, compassion, understanding, patience and tolerance.

JAR take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html and see if it has meaning for you. There are two types of boundaries. Those that stop others hurting us and those that stop us hurting others.

Bob


----------



## jar

Thanks everyone of the insight it really helps….JAR is backing off and taking a break from wife. The major things are done for the season house is fixed up and on the market. Lawn and stuff probably needs to be mowed once more but that can be put way off. It is a good time to transition back into taking care of my self more again.

I sent wife a bday card and a gift cert. She actually emailed me a whole day later and thanked me and also mentioned that she transferred the tax money.


I imagine the next crises I hear about will be if wife is being laid off or not.

So like many of you have suggested I am going to let wife go back to taking care of her self since this is what she requested. I am going to adapt my carrot and stick plan some. I also do not plan to initiate contact with her unless it is absolutely necessary.

AFEH
You bring up an interesting point about boundaries. It took me a while to figure out what my boundaries were initially. What I was willing to do and not willing to do. I will have to think about this again some and see what is important to me as a person. What I am willing to accept and not willing to accept. 

Probably for the first time I see that wife really does have some issues with her self that she needs to get sorted out. The person she is right now I can’t be married to long term and she will need to make some changes for the better in order for me to be willing to accept her back into our marriage again if that is what she chooses.

On another interesting note. I got a text from wife’s brother in-law. I guess he is my brother in law to. We have grown close over the past 10 years. He was the person in the family I spilled all the beans to. Every detail of this affair. He is going to be in the area on Sunday and is going to stop in. I am really looking forward to seeing him. It has been a few months since we have even talked.

JAR


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## turnera

Great news. I know it's hard, but you've done an amazing job.

The fact that you're now seeing her for her true self tells me that you are moving, albeit slowly. into the stage where you will eventually want to Plan B, to preserve any love you have left for her. Make sure you don't wait too long. If you do, you will never want her back no matter what.


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## AFEH

JAR, boundaries were totally new to me. I made a pretty big mistake in erecting them too quickly and not giving my wife time to even see let alone understand what I was doing. I told her but I didn’t give her time to digest it. She noticed a massive change in me. Where before I was patient and tolerant I was totally intolerant. I should have used some soccer type penalties, three yellow cards and it’s over type of thing. But it was different for me as we were still together at the time and I was in meltdown and had to do something.

It does seem that you are seeing your wife a little differently. It was my experience that I needed 6 months of no contact to see my wife very clearly. I think this time is needed to let the emotions get on some sort of even keel and for our mind to catalogue and store our memories and experiences. Once these are more or less all tidied up then we can look back on what happened. With a little more time we can come to our own conclusions and judgements.

During your period of no contact your wife will notice a big change in you simply because you are no longer contacting her. She will wonder what you are doing and what you are up to. My wife had a go at me for moving on quickly because she thought I was seeing someone else, yet she was the one who decided to end our marriage. If she does contact you for help and there’s you with your new boundaries and you decide not to help her again she will see a big change in you.

Personally I would go into no contact with the thought that you and your wife are over, finished. Otherwise I think you will be deluding yourself. If you go into it this way then you will grieve and that’s a whole new process in and of itself but you will get through it and when you come out the other side you may, like me, decide that you never want the pain you know your wife can bring to you back in your life again.

But then again sometime in the future your wife may come to see she’s made an enormous mistake and wants back into your life. If that happens then you will be in the right frame of mind to make a mature and healthy decision as to whether you let her back in or not. But I wouldn’t hold onto this last bit as it may never come.

Bob


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## iamnottheonlyone

What ever happened to the discussion about withdrawal. There are no miracle recoveries. JAR, it doesn't look like your wife has an addictive , but cmf's H and my W does. I have know hundreds of alcoholics and drug addicts during the course of my career. To even get to a stable place takes months of commitment. Nearly 100% relapse. AC and T have discussed all this in the past, what is yours and my distant past on this site. If she is withdrawing, and it appears she is, then you can wait and be patient and supportive but not intrusive. She will resent you, in any case. Do you have some time to do some reading for all of us on this subject? I will look back at my Harley materials as they began as drug addict rehab specialists. Given my view of things, I see no reason to go to Paln B. (However, recovery doesn't mean she'll come back to you.)
Still the best sign is that she hasn't filed.


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## tamara24

I could be wrong here, but I thought I told Jar he needed to decide for himself too.??

Jar, this could be what both of you need. She is not coming out of this unscathed. You don't have a switch that can turn it off and on. Just give her time to feel the loss of you. It can also be an eye opener to her of her true feelings if you are not always there to catch her.

I agree with AC that the OM and her backed off a bit and she was having fun with you. Something took her back to the fog so maybe this will bring her out again.

Please take care of yourself and look back and read your thread. I think you will see how much you have grown and remind you of things you have forgotten.

Have a great weekend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jessi

Hi Jar, 

You sound like you have given all the posts some consideration and this is a good thing and you seem to be thinking clearly about your situation....
Your wife needs to work through whatever it is that is going on with her before she can be in any relationship...
I tend to agree with the post from AEFH, he has it right I think some time needs to pass without your wife in the picture, this way you will be thinking clearly about what Jar really wants.....
I think it's great your BIL will be stopping by to visit, enjoy your time with him and it will be great to maintain the friendships you have had over the years.....they can continue even if you are separated from your wife......
Start having some fun and enjoy your life every day, don't let this take anymore away from Jar......
Remember nothing is set in stone and sometimes the things we don't expect to happen in our lives turn out to be the best ones.....


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## jar

All in all it has been a good weekend. Slept in some. Took one last boat ride for the season…Went to a dinner party with family and friends….My bro and I took a little road trip to the cost and back today….My wife’s bro in law showed up at my place tonight for an hour. We talked a bunch just about general stuff. We didn’t really talk at all about the situation at hand. It was really nice to re connect we have been close buds for the past 10 years. He gave me a few photos of my twin nieces…He says they still talk about uncle all the time they are only 2. I really miss them a lot.
Wife emailed me about the dog this weekend and the vet. I really don’t plan to respond what so ever. 
That is the update for now. Been feeling pretty good this past few days.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Glad to hear it.


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## jar

Wife has emailed me three times over the weekend.

I haven’t responded to any of the emails. Mostly stuff about the dog and the vet appointment….things like that. At least the emails are pleasant and not nasty like the ones from last week.

My plan is still to finish out the year in Plan A. I am just going to back way off. Affairce I ordered the book that you recommend. That should be very interesting read since it is different than some of the other I have read in the past.

Boundaries and needs are two topics that I have floating around in my brain right now. I am revisiting this topic again and going to see what I learn.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Stay positive. Respond as if there is nothing out of the ordinary. Treat her nice. You don't speak divorce. Patience.


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## AFEH

jar said:


> Boundaries and needs are two topics that I have floating around in my brain right now. I am revisiting this topic again and going to see what I learn. JAR


Your on your way Jar. Best to start with the boundaries you already have as a way of learning about them.

You’re an honest person. You don’t steal property from other people. That’s a personal boundary you already have. You give more than you take from life. That’s another boundary you already have. You’re always on time for work. That’s another boundary. List them all until you can think of no more. You will begin to understand yourself and you will start to re centre on yourself. You will regain the centre of gravity that so far has been outside of you.

Buy the book “Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men” and learn more. Doing this will stop you making the pit you’ve been in deeper. You’ll be climbing out instead of digging in. The focus is on yourself, it is life changing.

Meanwhile your wife will notice changes in you, women are so perceptive most men just haven’t a clue just how perceptive they are. She’ll be putting out little “feelers” to try and understand what’s happening. Take note of these and respond in appropriate ways. Ignore them like you are doing if that is the appropriate thing. If you want to be really fair tell her you will respond to her need if it is an utmost emergency in her life, that if that is the case you will try and help her out, make no guarantees.

Overtime when you’ve quelled the dysfunctional dynamics between the two of you, not only will you understand and view yourself differently you will also understand and view your wife differently.

Good luck to you Jar. Enjoy the journey of self discovery.

Bob


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## tamara24

She has to fix herself,you can't do that for her no more than she can fix you. 
I think she is very insecure on the inside and probably doesn't exactly know what she wants. She made you into this bad Jar, then she enjoyed spending time with you,she lost a friend, then has doubts that you are really the man that you have suddenly turned into. She uses you unconciensely,not on purpose. When you don't do exactly as she wants, she thinks,see he is the bad Jar I thought. But in real life,people disagree.
I think that you need time away,focus on yourself. Unless it is an emergency, I would let her emails and texts go unanswered so she can feel the loss of you.
My gram always tells me, what is meant to be will be and she is NEVER wrong. You also know your wife well enough to know when she has hit her limit. Don't drag her through the mud,if she REALLY needs you then take care of it.(love kindler) if she asks why you are not communicating. You are respecting her wishes but your wishes are that both of you work together to save your marraige.
I don't think your wife is over you, she is over the unhappiness and lonliness of the marraige . She looked for what was missing through OM. I don't see that being full force either. 
You have come far and should be very proud of yourself. Now, take a break and see how far your wife can come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Wife just posted on FB that layoffs are suppose to be happening Wednesday and Thursday at her work.

Things are about to get interesting.

I wonder if she will survive the cut. She is bright and does a lot of work but she rarely will go the extra mile and stay late. She also can have a rather abrasive attitude towards coworkers. She has not gotten a long with her last two bosses what so ever.

My guess is she will be out of there even known she has seniority over most in her department. 

I am willing to bet the OM will get the ax he is not well liked in his department and does not do quality work. He is also the low man on the totem pole.

So this could push wife further away. She could be gone next week looking for a new job hundreds of miles away. It also could bring us closer together.

We will see....Like I said the next few days will be interesting. This could drive the Om out of the picture completely. He needs to be employed in order to stay in this country.

I have been through layoffs and a job ending before it is not easy and very scary. In my past life I have been the ax man and had to decide who goes and who stays due to funding cuts. Very tough especially when they are friends and do good work. If it were up to me I would really be on the fence between laying her off or keeping her on.

This layoff experience could be a real positive.


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## jessi

keep us posted, how the OM gets the boot right out of the country.........hehe!!!!


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## notreadytoquit

If the OM is on a work visa in the US he basically has a month to pack and leave if he does not want to break US Immigration Law. And if he does stay illegally and then gets caught the ban for entering the US is anywhere from 3-5 years. But really once you get on their bad list you stay there for a long time or at least they will give you hell when trying to reenter the US.


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## jar

He is on a work Visa...


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## notreadytoquit

My husband was on a work visa and he lost his job in Jan. But because they were paying him severance he was able to stay there until July 2010. I was 100% dependent on his visa as his spouse. I could not get one on my own because I did not fulfil the requirements. So after his severance expired he was able to get another visa guaranteed(he is an engineer) but he was not going to put me on the new visa. Our son was born in the US so he had no problem staying but I could not. I was not going leave without my child no matter what.


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## jar

I heard from my wife yesterday and this morning that she didn’t get laid off. They cut about 20 people in her company. I honestly thought more would be going. The basic crew of people that I have gotten to know are still there so I am happy for them.

As for the OM she didn’t mention him. 

She sent me a brief text about this yesterday and an email this morning. She also wants me to take the dog this weekend. Which I am not doing. Her emails are brief and to the point.

I did responded to her email just to let her know I am here and thinking of her and can relate to how she must be feeling. She let me know she is fine but worried about everyone else. This is part of her personality.

So I guess this lay off could have been a lot worst and one less complication to deal with right now. Wonder what’s next.

JAR


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## jar

I stopped at home to pick up some winter clothes. While I was there I mowed the lawn real quick. Wife wasn’t there she was at her families. That is why I stopped at the house I wasn’t in the mood to really see her. I did text her to let her know I was coming by. By the time she acknowledged the text I had already left the house.

She sent me a thank you email today for mowing the lawn and transferring my monthly contribution to the checking account. She also wanted to know if I got everything I needed.

That’s all I have to report 
JAR


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## turnera

At least it's not bad news.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR,
The fact that you really didn't want to see her is a step forward. I found that when I first felt that, I had nearly recovered all my confidence. Before having that feeling, I was always disappointed if I didn't see her. Now you want to see her but you don't feel like you must see her. Good going.


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## jar

I went out to lunch with a coworker today….He and I work very closely on a number of projects….He had admitted to me that he and his wife see a counselor and that they had been having problems….today he confided in me that he was the one that cheated on his wife 2 years ago….Seems that he and his wife to this day suffer from a lot of issues but it was over a year before they went to marriage counseling…They have all the books but haven’t read any of them. Seems they are both rather depressed for a number of reasons and are having a tough time helping them selves. There counselor has told them they need to see individual counselors and also more than likely be medicated.

I just listened and in the end told him that I was available to listen and help any way I can and that I am a friend of the marriage…

I don’t think he has told any one about this before.

JAR


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## jessi

Jar, that was so nice of you, it probably took a lot for him to talk to anyone else about his marriage, you have learned a lot since you came here and I hope your friend takes you up on any help you could give him.......I have a best friend I run everything by and I know I wouldn't have survived all this without her, she was very honest and understanding and didn't just say what I wanted to hear, very level headed and made me keep my self respect and common sense.....I'm very grateful for her and that friendship......
I hope you are keeping yourself busy and keeping an open mind to what life has to offer........sometimes the least expected things in life bring the most joy........
stay strong my friend.......


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## jar

As all of you know I have been on a JAR break for about a week now. 

Affaircare explained to me that my wife has some of the feeler personality type in her and the people that are close in her life she will circle in and out and ping them to make sure they are at the other end.

It seems that is what is happening now. I do not initiate contact and didnt acknowledge yesterdays email from her. 

Today I had this email waiting for me at work.

I know you said you were gone the end of October, I will be out of town the 29th to the 1st of November, and was just wondering if you would like to take the dog, or if you aren't available that's fine I was going to contact the kennel today anyway to get her into the kennel.

I am getting ready for my Vegas trip. I never offered up any info on what I was doing and said this in passing to her while on my way out the door over 3 weeks ago.

Seems now she is going to get a way as well. Wonder where to…Maybe with Om maybe going somewhere with a friend…Who knows…I am not asking…

I responded by saying I will be gone and can’t take dog. 

Not even a love JAR at the end.

Trying to take care of my self the best I can. I have been working a ton and trying to stay busy with a few projects at home…

JAR


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## turnera

You're doing a great 180.


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## jar

I have worked a ton this week. I haven’t heard from wife in the past few days. I wonder if she still thinks about me…..

I really miss her….I have been working a ton the past two weeks and I really miss going home to a worm house with a happy wife and dog waiting for me.

Trying to stay busy and trying to keep her out of my mind

JAR


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## jessi

Hi jar, 

good for you staying busy and not thinking about the past to much.....look forward my friend with open eyes and heart.......


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## turnera

We always think they forget...but they don't.


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## jar

I had a good weekend….Friday night me and the guys from work ended up staying pretty late and blowing off some steam and getting pretty drunk….It was nice to hang with the guys something I use to never be able to do because of how far I lived from work.

Saturday I worked a bunch more…I was really having a hard time keeping my mind focused and was thinking a lot about my wife…When I got home I ended up staying up really late and cleaning the kitchen and the fridge out….It was nasty….Roast beef in the fridge that was almost a year past the expiration date….I did this to try and get my mind off of things.

Saturday I took a JAR day…Slept in and took a long drive in the afternoon.

I actually finished reading the rest of Love Busters. Really good book….There are so many love busters in our marriage…. Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Habits, Independent Behavior and Dishonesty…

Both Wife and I have made selfish demands in the past….I would say that in this category we are both 50/50 at fault in this area…

Disrespectful judgments…I would say that for me I feel that my wife does this a lot….I am sure that there are many examples of me doing the same as well….But this is a big love buster for me…

The angry outburst….I don’t feel that I personality have too many angry outburst…I just tend to bottle up but every once and a while I exploded….My wife has had her angry out burst and generally says some pretty hurtful things towards me especially lately.

Annoying Habits…I am the guilty party on this one. I am annoying…Perfect example is I tend to dump my clothes in a pile on the chair in the bedroom…This drives my wife nuts….When I think of annoying habits of hers there are very few that come to mind and they really aren’t that bad.

Independent Behavior…I am really guilty of this one…My work schedule and some of my activities really didn’t include my wife….Wife has always had some independent behavior as well especially recently with the affair…I would say we are both guilty of this and it is a big love buster for us both.

Dishonesty…I am guilty of this one I use to hold back things from wife because I thought it would hurt her feelings. I now realize this is wrong….Wife also does the same…But obviously the biggest dishonest thing that is still going on is the affair…

All this got me thinking more about my needs and her needs again….I can see how I really wasn’t doing a great job at meeting my wife’s needs and was also withdrawing some major love bank units with the love busters and I can really see how we got to this place….I can also see why I still have feelings for my wife…She has always met some of my needs not all of them or even the most important ones but she was meeting some of my needs. She was responsible for many love busters but the deposits were out weighting the debits still until this affair.

I am still hoping that we get the chance to rebuild this relationship and learn from out mistakes in the past…I don’t know if my wife will ever come around…I remember one of my wife’s things she use to say to me is we aren’t compatible any more and we don’t share any common interest…I think one of my favorite quotes in Harleys book is compatibility is built together over time in a relationship. I really like this idea…

JAR


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## jar

I actually got the nerve to call up my wifes work today and see if the OM had a voice mail box still. It seems he still has a voice mail box….Wonder if the phone system has been updated since the layoff….wonder if he still has a job.


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## tamara24

Jar,

I know this is a hard situation for you. Please don't do this to yourself. It will only torment you more. I don't believe the OM is really an issue at this point. If it was, she would be insisting for a divorce right away and you would not get nice emails. Remember, the OM was. Also a symptom of a marraige headed in the wrong direction. He was not the actual cause of the marraige gone wrong. Just a factor in the equation.

Think about all the things you have accomplished for yourself. Think of how far you have come. You even stated that you didn't care to see her when you went by the house. You will survive this,either way. Just keep in mind that even though you think she has forgotten you, she has not. I think the silent treatment will get her soon to look at her circle and notice that you are not there and wondering why you are not paying her the attention like before. You have done everything by the book and more. She is the one losing it. Remember the old saying absence makes the heart grow fonder? 
Stay strong and keep your chin up. Keep pushing yourself to do for you and see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jessi

I agree with Tamara, 
This is a tough stage to go through when you actually disconnect a little to really see where they are at......it might take some time.....she really needs to feel you not there for her.......for her to see you move on.......and that might mean going out and meeting new people.........she might still believe she can treat you any way she likes and you will always just coming running back.......what if you didn't what would she really do........give it some thought


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## OhGeesh

Jar keep focusing on Jar!! I was exctited to read your previous posts.....I noticed they weren't as frequent, you didn't seem as obsessed, you were moving forward.....then I saw the one about calling to see if the OM still worked there.

I agree sith Tam/Jessi.... I don't think the OM is the true issue obviously a huge factor though. Keep focusing on you and don't get your hopes up. I wouldn't for a second rationally think that she will change her mind about wanted to move on from the marriage.

If you keep doing things for your betterment and she comes around you can make that call then, but I would say continue not talking except on a professional level, continue to hang out with the guys, workout, read, cook, take road trips, and have fun.

You may get to the point where you realize that you are better than any of this. That there are plenty of faithful, loving, and attractive women that would love to have a guy like YOU!! When that happens you may look at you wife / ex wife with disgust and say I don't need you. 

Best of luck always.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think about the OM every now and then. How there was no consequence for him. He was just the damage doer. Takes two to Tango. But still OM knew the pain he would cause and could care a rat's ***. But OM is not worth the effort to give him the pain he deserves.


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## tamara24

The OM is a factor, but. Jars wife choose to make the decision to go outside of the marraige.it was HER decision to cause that hurt. It could be this OM or another,it would still be her choice. Jar was not happy and he made a decision to stay true to his vows.

I don't think the OM or the OW really get away with anything. They know nothing of having a real relationship with a person devoted only to them. They will always cheat or end up married and cheated on. Karma can be a real butt kicker. 

Jar, just focus on yourself and see what happens. You will make it through this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Hi Guys

Thanks for your comments I needed to hear from a few people.

I am going through the with draw stuff that Affaircare explained all over again…

The OM doesn’t cross my mind to often any more….I am a big believer that the OM choices will come full circle one way or anther and that this will come back to haunt him.

Only takes a few bad choices before things can spiral out of control….

I been working night and day lately….This weekend is my Vegas trip that I am really looking forward to.

JAR


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## Affaircare

Jar~

I would like to point out to you that in effect, by your actions, you have already entered into Plan B/No Contact stage. This is another step on the journey to possibly save your marriage, but the point of this stage is to do what you are effectively doing now: 

1) Protect what tiny bit of love may be left and disentangle YOUR life from both the disloyal spouse and all the drama associated with infidelity. Bring back peace where there has been trauma, drama, and chaos. Just so you know, in Plan B/No Contact, the loyal spouse goes through the withdrawal that they have been asking their disloyal to go through ending contact with the OP. 

2) Give the disloyal a full, harsh, real taste of what divorce will be like. Usually/often a disloyal thinks that the loyal will "disappear," but the disloyal keeps the kids, the house, all the loyal's money, none of the debt...AND everyone will still be "friends" so that the loyal will still do stuff for them. Yeah--that's real!  This plan is "what it will be like if you lose me and the OP has to meet all your needs by themselves." Again, not every time, but often right about Plan B, the disloyal gets serious and starts to pressure the OP to divorce their spouse too, and the OP never even wanted another serious relationship! 

At the same time, the loyal ALSO gets a full, real taste of what divorce will be like. Since the loyal has already been working on themselves, going to counseling, working on the Love Extinguishers, etc. often in Plan B/No Contact the loyal is surprised to discover that life without the drama of the affair is pretty nice! Usually, the loyal will say something like, "I just realized the other day when I was .. that I was HAPPY! Can you believe that? I'm able to feel happiness!" 

Anyway, JAR, I would strongly suggest that since you are already, effectively, in Plan B/No Contact that you look over the Sample Consequences Letters and that you make it formal. Write her a letter, and do formally what you are doing in practice already. This letter does not mean you're ending your marriage or asking for divorce: it means you are going to the next step in the attempt to give your marriage one more chance to survive. Okay?


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## Affaircare

JAR~

I hope you don't mind but there were a few things I wanted to clarify about my last post. In my last post I used the words "I would strong suggest that since you are already, effectively, in Plan B/No Contact that you look over the Sample Consequences Letters and that you make it formal." After some time to think about it and reread the way it's written, I want to make one thing clear. The way you have been acting recently is Plan B/No Contact both by action and by what you are going through (i.e., those feelings of withdrawal). So if you're ready, I would encourage you to go ahead and formalize what you are already doing by action. It makes sense that if you're going to have No Contact with her, that you send her the one, last love letter that also clearly states what she can do to come back and rebuild the marriage, right? 

However, since you have not yet sent her the Plan B/Consequences Letter, it's not formally Plan B yet and honestly it does no harm to stay as things are--in Carrot & Stick. If you want to continue as things are for a while longer, I don't see that it would harm anything, so if you want to wait a little longer and go into formal Plan B/Consequences after Thanksgiving maybe....that's fine. 

What I do think WOULD be harmful is disengaging from her, then re-engaging, then disengaging, then re-engaging. That would seem confusing and inconsistent to her, and in my personal opinion it would be emotionally and mentally harmful to you. Thus, if you are where you are now--namely not reaching out to contact her, and not attempting to do romantic things or give her gifts, etc.--I would think that restarting daily 'I love you' texts and giving gifts would be a mis-step. On the other hand, if you wanted to continue as you are--namely namely not reaching out to contact her, living your life happily, working on yourself, and not turning her away if SHE reaches out--well I could see that. 

So just to clarify, if you want to continue as you are for a little while longer--still technically in Plan A/Carrot & Stick and namely not reaching out to contact her, living your life happily, working on yourself, and not turning her away if SHE reaches out--I would suggest that it's okay to stay *AS IS* and move deliberately to Plan B/No Contact when you're ready. 

I would NOT suggest going back to daily contact such as "I love you" emails and trying to be romantic. In fact I would recommend *against* that because it would be confusing to her. I also believe it would be damaging to you to go through some of the withdrawal, then re-engage, then try to go through withdrawal again, etc. I will point out that this is why we tell the Disloyal to end all contact with the OP--because engaging, disengaging, engaging, disengaging is very hard and very painful! It's not easy but honestly, it's easier to just end all contact. 

Finally, I just point out to you that in effect, your actions now and very Plan B/Consequences, so if you think about it and you ARE ready to go now, I would recommend sending her the Consequences Letter because it will explain to her why you are no longer in contact and what she can do to return (if she were to want to come back). If you didn't realize it, your actions are the actions of Plan B so you may want to consider that since you are doing it in the way you live, you may also want to do it formally too.


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## jar

I am headed home today from Vegas with my bro...

We had such a fun trip....it was just what i needed...

No agenda and no drama...

We went to sema....gambled a lot and lived it up out on the town every night

affaircare I have been thinking alot about your posts the past few days...

I am still undecided if I am going to go into full plan b mode

jar
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh

jar said:


> I am headed home today from Vegas with my bro...
> 
> We had such a fun trip....it was just what i needed...
> 
> No agenda and no drama...
> 
> We went to sema....gambled a lot and lived it up out on the town every night
> 
> affaircare I have been thinking alot about your posts the past few days...
> 
> I am still undecided if I am going to go into full plan b mode
> 
> jar


Your a car guy? SEMA is awesome and I wanted to go so bad.......a little envy from my side! Glad you had fun
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

OFF TOPIC: 

For those who are not "in the know" SEMA is the Specialty Equipment Market Association, and it's the premier automotive specialty products trade event in the world. All the cool, geeky, gear-head gadgets are there, and new cars and projects. There's everything from specialization parts to entire, new hybrid cars. My own person passion? Retro/vintage (especially muscle cars)!! I have personally restored a 1966 Buick LaSabre convertible (engine, body and interior) and a 1972 Opel GT for autocrossing. 

Ah JAR!    Happy thoughts!


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## jar

I am a bit of a car guy…..My brother is the one that has the obsession with cars…

SEMA was a ton of fun…So much to see and do…

Vegas was a blast we stayed up late gambled…Drank…went out and had nice dinners…It was exactly what I needed and I am so glad that I got a way.

We were there for Halloween some of the costumes the ladies were wearing were unbelievable…

I think my wife would have enjoyed going to Vegas…However in new places she is a little tense and can be a stick in the mud for the first day…It has happened many times in the past and can really ruin the mood. She is also a planner so she would plan out the whole trip and would never go with the flow breakfast lunch and dinner and activities would be planned and it use to get on my nerves some…

So it was a perfect getaway with the guys no schedule and lots of fun….I really enjoyed it….

We got an email from the realtor…That basically paints a very clear picture that the house isn’t going to sell any time soon and that the market sucks. 

Wife texted me while I was in Vegas and wanted to know when I would be sending her my contribution to the mortgage. She also mentioned I should stop by because I had some important mail that needed to be picked up…Basically work stuff open enrollment is this month for health benefits at work so I need to get signed up. I have health insurance through her work right now. I asked her nicely if she would mail me the stuff to my po box.

I also got another email from her from my credit card company stating that there was irregular credit card activity going on. So I imagine at this point she has figured out where I went to.

That is all I have to report at the moment I am really undecided about Plan B….I am not ready to close the window of communication even know it is almost shut….If I hear from her for now I would like to be able to reciprocate…I guess me not contacting and leaving her a lone is a something that she has requested from me in the past. So I guess I am respecting her wishes at this point and taking care of my self.

JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
So glad you had fun in Vegas, It must have felt great to just get away and think about something else....
You are doing exactly what you should when you are in contact with your wife.......
You are respecting not only her wishes but yourself Jar.....
This has been a long process for you but I can see you are in a great place now........
I couldn't be happier........
Take care Jar.......
Jessi


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## jar

So something has caught me really off guard in the last day or two….

I seem to have developed a little crush on a coworker….

We work closely together and I have a lot of respect for the work that she brings to the table….She has a wonderful cheery personality and is also very attractive country kind of girl….

She is the same age as I and is divorced….Every once and a while we go out to lunch together. She knows my situation and can relate it to what she went through with her x husband…She lives with her boyfriend so she isn’t single but she is a little flirty and there is a connection there.

This isn’t like me I have really only had eyes for my wife for years now. I guess I see how things started with my wife and her affair….I am really not sure how to handle myself. I think maybe keeping my distance and keeping things professional is the best course at this point…. 


JAR


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## turnera

yeah, probably...


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## michzz

jar said:


> I am really not sure how to handle myself. I think maybe keeping my distance and keeping things professional is the best course at this point….
> 
> 
> JAR


Best course, she LIVES WITH HER BOYFRIEND.


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## Tanelornpete

michzz - you made my day...


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## michzz

Tanelornpete said:


> michzz - you made my day...


Oy.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> So something has caught me really off guard in the last day or two….
> 
> I seem to have developed a little crush on a coworker….
> This isn’t like me I have really only had eyes for my wife for years now. I guess I see how things started with my wife and her affair….I am really not sure how to handle myself. I think maybe keeping my distance and keeping things professional is the best course at this point….


Here's how I'd take it. This is your heart's way of reminding you that it's not dead and that if your wife continues with the divorce, you won't be perpetually depressed and without love in your life. This is your heart flexing a muscle a little and saying, "See I can still do this. You can still have feelings. Life ain't over cuz no fat lady has sung. No cigar yet." :rofl:

However, I do think that you are smart enough to know that you are not divorced yet and so if you were to act on the crush, you'd be just as guilty of infidelity as your wife is. I also think this is actually a wonderful way for you to feel some compassion for her as now you can see how easy it is to feel a little bit good about someone noticing your work or flirting back. It is a 'zing'! And it's not like you're morally degenerate or anything. It just feels good and is a little fun so you continue to flirt with the fire thinking you can handle it and justifying. Same for her. 

So yep I agree, you're best bet is to recognize it for what it is--a reminder you aren't dead yet and you can see now how easy it would be to fall for it and continue. Being a married man, what do you wish you wife had done at this point? Admit it, maybe talk to you about it, and then put in some shields to stop things and protect herself from the temptation? Something like that? I would say that's what you do. Admit it to yourself for what it is, and put up some shields to protect YOU and the lady at work.


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## tamara24

Affairecare is right on the money with this one. You have decided to start thinking more of yourself and making plans without the wife. You are mentally consiously, or not preparing yourself for whatever comes next in this situation.

It is good you are getting out and noticing that other people are attracted to you. It makes you feel good about you and that is great. Acting on those feelings whie still married is not and you know that. However,how do you feel about the wife at this stage? Are you really going to keep in plan A when you are beginning to notice and flirt with another woman. Are you tired with wife's antics? Has she given you any indication she is not liking you not being available to her? One thing that gets me is she is looking at your credit card bill. It it a joint bill or just yours? I think I would be changing the password on your account and not give her open access to your life. Not too be mean, but it would make her wonder a little more about your life.

You are doing well for yourself and realizing a little more about how much you are capable of and that is great. Keep up the work and don't stoop to any level that would make you as guilty as your wife. You know no good would come of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## josh1081

AC and co.
Do you guys think it'd be a good idea to mention this crush to his wife? So he can try to relate to her on that kind of level and show his understanding for what she was going through? I think it might also shed some light on where she is actually at with this. If she says go for it then it'd be a strong indication with how moved on she is, or if she shows strong jealousy then she is still wanting something from him. 
Just a thought....I dunno the validity of this course of action in repairing a relationship
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks guys

Like I said this crush/attraction to my coworker caught me off guard a bit. I don’t plan to pursue it. If anything I can admit I have a thing for her and set up some boundaries for myself now…

Interesting question about how do I feel about my wife….I am still in love with her and think about her constantly….However I have a ton of hurt feelings and I often remember the little nasty things she has said to me in the past year…I some times get images in my head of her and the OM together or even another guy…Maybe she has kicked him to the curb and is with some one else now…I also think a ton about plan B and just quoting all together…I thinking I am getting closer to plan B everyday….I just am not ready to shut down the lines of communication….I also think about quitting my job and finding a new one some place else….Where I can get a fresh start….I still think I am waiting till next spring for that though.

I also think about the items she has told me wants a divorce…and wonder if she really means it or not….

Basically there is very little combination from her at this point…..She pings me on something about once a week but it is usually all business related stuff.

The credit card thing is a bit of a funny situation we have a joint loan through MBNA and also just my credit card….So when she logs in to pay the loan my credit card stuff also comes up…I called about getting things changed around but it is to much a pain in the butt at this point. I am ok with it for now.

AC….I finally got my hands on a copy of the book you recommend for me…Passionate marriage…I read the first chapter last night….It is defiantly a different kind of book….

I really hope that I get more of a chance to apply what I have learned to my marriage…

Thanks
JAR


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## tamara24

Got the passionate marraige book too. Yep,different describes it. More people should read it. 
Keep working at it Jar,you are getting a plan together!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Nothing new to report today….A few months back I bought a few books for my in laws but never sent them…His needs Her Needs…and Not just friends…I thought that it would be nice for them to read them so that they might better understand what Wife and I are going through…maybe it would help them be an even a better support network for my wife…Do you think sending this is a good I idea…I have a great relationship with them…Does it make me look needy or like I am trying to control the situation. She is very close with her family.

I gave a copy of the books to my family…They read some of it but my family really aren’t readers…But they at least are making an attempt to understand the situation.

What do you guys think?

JAR


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## Tanelornpete

Hey Jar - 

It would only be a form of control if you gave it to them with the stipulation that they use it to get her back to you. Otherwise, it is purely information, an explanation of why you are doing what you do. Who knows - if any of them read it - it may help with unknown troubles in their marriages!


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## jar

I will have to draft up a simple note to them when I send them…It has been on my todo list for months now but I haven’t really know what to say…

I imagine that they have many feelings and emotions like my family.

JAR


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## turnera

Dear X and Y,
I was at the store and saw these books, and thought of you guys. Not that you need them, lol, but rather I thought of how much they helped me when I was going through the worst of things with Wife. I thought that it might help you guys see where I'm coming from, because these books have guided me. I hope they make lots of sense for you.


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## jar

I like it something short and sweet....Thanks guys


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## jar

I have another question…..

I am reasonably certain that I am going to trade in my vehicle and buy a new truck….

Now I could just do all this without wife….Or I could discus it with her and make her part of this decision….I imagine she might flip out a bit either way…

What are people’s opinions on this one…

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think that when you send the books you should make it about the recipient. You might remember I sent a bunch of books out to might best friends. I included a note that mentioned how it helped me understand how I got to the place I'm at and should help me not repeat my mistakes. I hoped that reading the book would help their marriages and bring them closer together. If I only knew then, what I know now.
In fact half of them mentioned how the book had a positive effect on their marriages. Sort of a wake up call.


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## jar

I will get something written up today and post it for finale approval...I been meaning to do this for months now.

Thanks
Jar


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## turnera

Mirror what you'd like to see in your wife (regarding the truck): total honesty.


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## jar

I think you are right....

I will give her a call in the next day or two I need to prepare myself for whatever she might say to me...

JAR


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## Affaircare

I would agree with Turnera. At this point you are still married, and no papers have been filed anywhere. Thus, I would model mutual united understanding , which is the understanding that neither one of you will make a decision until you are both 100% enthusiastic about it--and especially not decisions that may affect the other. Of course she has not agreed to MUU yet, but you can model it to her and even ask if she would agree to it! 

Can you word it using a W-T-F-S? Or make a respectful request that also states a boundary (indicate you are including her but also will not accept verbal abuse)? She may have legitimate reasons for not wanting to trade in and get a new car right now, so listen with an open ear--and also respectfully explain how you'd do it and why. Let her know that you would expect her to offer you the same open ear that you gave to her. 

Really that's how healthy, respectful people talk about difficult differences of opinion or preference.


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## jar

Had a good day today. I spent it with my friend and his kids. I really enjoyed spending time with them. It was tough to come back to an empty house in the woods. It is lonely here tonight. I miss having a wife that I can talk to.

A family friend called me today he is also the guy I buy my auto insurance through…I had a question for him and he was retuning my call. He called home first and talked to wife. She told him we were separated and that I didn’t live there.

I explained the whole stories to him about the past year and the affair. He told me when he was 25 the same thing happened to him. He was very compassionate and empathetic to the situation because he had been through it. Told me that I could call any time I wanted and talk. So many people go through what we go through here.

I have been reading the passionate marriage book. I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the differentiation concept and emotional fusion… The book explains it in detail but I am having a hard time undederstaning. I need an example or two from my own life. I think it is going to take me a while to processes this one.

JAR


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## Affaircare

First, that book REALLY is different, isn't it? The concepts are literally something you don't hear of anywhere else! The concepts require a lot of pretty deep, intense understanding, but let me see if I can give an example of what differentiation IS and then one of what it IS NOT--examples that might make sense to you. 

EXAMPLE OF WHAT DIFFERENTIATION WOULD LOOK LIKE: 
Dear Hubby and I are basically inseparable--however, it is by choice because we so very much enjoy each others' company, not because I "need" him or he "needs" me. I am completely able to live without him and be happy and still be exactly who I am; and he is completely able to live without me and be happy and be exactly who HE is. If he were to choose to leave tomorrow, I would be sad that was his choice, and somewhat disappointed that he made a promise until death and didn't honor it, but I am individual enough to have my own life, interests, family and abilities that I know I could be fine without him. We choose to be together every day, and every day it is a deliberate choice to act thoughtfully, caringly, lovingly. 

AN EXAMPLE OF EMOTIONAL FUSION: 
Dear Hubby and I are basically inseparable because I "need" him or he "needs" me; our lives are not capable of standing on our own but rather we lean on each other. My feelings depend on him acting a certain way or saying a certain thing, and his feelings depend on me acting a certain way or saying a certain thing. I am unable to live without him, for without him I would have no hope of happiness and would not be who I am because I'm defined by him; and he is unable to live without me because without me he would have no hope of happiness and would not be who HE is because I define him. If one of us were to choose to leave tomorrow, our lives would collapse because we are not individual enough to have our own lives, interests, family and abilities--everything we do is tangled up and dependent upon the other in an unhealthy way. We stay together every day because we have no identity apart, and like two towers that lean on each other, if one were to leave the other would collapse. If we do choose to act thoughtfully, caringly, lovingly--it's in an attempt to prop up our own world. 

Now here is a practical example: 
Dear Hubby and I both like to play online video games. I am much more casual about it--he is moreso an expert and a little more intense. We both have higher level characters. If we were differentiated, he could play with me and have fun or go play with some other friends we have and do end-game playing...and my world would not collapse because he's not paying attention to me in the game. If he was playing too often (neglecting his duties as father and husband) I could talk to him about it in a safe, honest, respectful W-T-F-S way and his world would not fall apart because I'm saying something to him. 

The best way I can think of to envision it is that differentiation is two completely separate trees, with deep roots and flourishing blossoms in the forest side-by-side. Emotional fusion is two trees all twisted together, roots tangled sort of living off each other and not entirely flourishing, and if one dies or is injured or has trouble, the other dies too. 

In this life, people often think, "I don't want to divorce! I'll be alone!" but what they don't realize is that as we go through life and make this journey, we are alone already. Sometimes someone walks WITH us--beside us--and our journeys head in the same direction. But we are still alone.


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## OhGeesh

Affaircare said:


> First, that book REALLY is different, isn't it? The concepts are literally something you don't hear of anywhere else! The concepts require a lot of pretty deep, intense understanding, but let me see if I can give an example of what differentiation IS and then one of what it IS NOT--examples that might make sense to you.
> 
> EXAMPLE OF WHAT DIFFERENTIATION WOULD LOOK LIKE:
> Dear Hubby and I are basically inseparable--however, it is by choice because we so very much enjoy each others' company, not because I "need" him or he "needs" me. I am completely able to live without him and be happy and still be exactly who I am; and he is completely able to live without me and be happy and be exactly who HE is. If he were to choose to leave tomorrow, I would be sad that was his choice, and somewhat disappointed that he made a promise until death and didn't honor it, but I am individual enough to have my own life, interests, family and abilities that I know I could be fine without him. We choose to be together every day, and every day it is a deliberate choice to act thoughtfully, caringly, lovingly.
> 
> AN EXAMPLE OF EMOTIONAL FUSION:
> Dear Hubby and I are basically inseparable because I "need" him or he "needs" me; our lives are not capable of standing on our own but rather we lean on each other. My feelings depend on him acting a certain way or saying a certain thing, and his feelings depend on me acting a certain way or saying a certain thing. I am unable to live without him, for without him I would have no hope of happiness and would not be who I am because I'm defined by him; and he is unable to live without me because without me he would have no hope of happiness and would not be who HE is because I define him. If one of us were to choose to leave tomorrow, our lives would collapse because we are not individual enough to have our own lives, interests, family and abilities--everything we do is tangled up and dependent upon the other in an unhealthy way. We stay together every day because we have no identity apart, and like two towers that lean on each other, if one were to leave the other would collapse. If we do choose to act thoughtfully, caringly, lovingly--it's in an attempt to prop up our own world.
> 
> Now here is a practical example:
> Dear Hubby and I both like to play online video games. I am much more casual about it--he is moreso an expert and a little more intense. We both have higher level characters. If we were differentiated, he could play with me and have fun or go play with some other friends we have and do end-game playing...and my world would not collapse because he's not paying attention to me in the game. If he was playing too often (neglecting his duties as father and husband) I could talk to him about it in a safe, honest, respectful W-T-F-S way and his world would not fall apart because I'm saying something to him.
> 
> The best way I can think of to envision it is that differentiation is two completely separate trees, with deep roots and flourishing blossoms in the forest side-by-side. Emotional fusion is two trees all twisted together, roots tangled sort of living off each other and not entirely flourishing, and if one dies or is injured or has trouble, the other dies too.
> 
> In this life, people often think, "I don't want to divorce! I'll be alone!" but what they don't realize is that as we go through life and make this journey, we are alone already. Sometimes someone walks WITH us--beside us--and our journeys head in the same direction. But we are still alone.


Let me add just cause it's in a book doesn't mean it's right!! Without reading the book "fusion" describes my wife and I and I don't see it as negative at all.

We spend time together because we want to first and foremost so maybe that's the other one....but besides that what you described fusion to be is US! I don't want to go drinking with the guys she doesn't want to go on fun night with the girls.....when we have breaks in our very busy life it's all us all the time! We are 100% intertwined emotionally talk about everything, laugh, cry, debate, plan futures, fullfill dreams together, are intertwined physically, sexually, and without a doubt would NOT function well apart why would we?

We are joined living as one together we bend, sacrifice, please one another, put others needs before our own, fusion is a great way to explain it.

I'm sure the book skews that term in a negative light I would want my marriage to be no other way.

So is it a good book?


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## Affaircare

But OhGeesh there is a difference between CHOOSING to be like that, but being the individual you are...and being like that because you are unstable on your own and miserable without someone to prop you up. My own Dear Hubby and I literally are together all the time because I work from home with him! But we do it by choice. We are two fully grown, personally responsible, mature, emotionally healthy adults who choose to walk down the path of life together on purpose. That's entirely different from two people who have aged but not "grown up" who blame others for their choices, are immature, operating in emotionally unhealthy ways, who are so entangled that it's fusion and not union. 

Union would be another term for differentiation (two distinct things uniting). Fusion is the two distinct things merging with no distinction remaining.


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## jar

Afaircare thank you for the reply. I am really enjoying the book however I can only ready it about 10 pages at a time. I am still trying to figure out how this applies to wife and I. I am a bit distracted write now.

I got some news that really is upsetting me this morning here it is…

I know I have come a long way but this really hurts a lot….

She is going to do this…

Thank you for the money transfer, I really appreciate that you do this. I am writing you because there are a couple of things that I need to tell you. First I just wanted to remind you that I did not put you on my insurance for next year, so you will have to get your insurance through your work. Also, I wanted to tell you that I have retained my lawyer and have started the paper work to file for divorce. I still want this to be as amicable as possible but I needed to do what was best for me. She will be filing the petition with the courts and you will be notified. She is also helping me draw up an agreement that will be sent to you about the splitting up of our assets. It is up to you to go over it and either agree or disagree with pieces of it or all of it,etc. I am not trying to go behind your back but just work through this divorce in the easiest least hurtful way and I feel at this point having a lawyer help is what's best for me. I hope that you will understand and we can work together to get closure to this situation.

She didn’t even have the decency to give me a call….I don’t know how I am suppose to keep up the carrot and stick stuff when I get this kind of response from my wife…I been expecting to get a note like this from her for a while…

How can I keep the hope and the faith up…it seems she knows what she wants…and I know what I want I want my wife and my marriage.

JAR


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## Eli-Zor

Jar 

Hang in there, it is not over until you say it's over. Keep working on yourself , whatever the end result is come out the better man.


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## AFEH

jar said:


> Afaircare thank you for the reply. I am really enjoying the book however I can only ready it about 10 pages at a time. I am still trying to figure out how this applies to wife and I. I am a bit distracted write now.
> 
> I got some news that really is upsetting me this morning here it is…
> 
> I know I have come a long way but this really hurts a lot….
> 
> She is going to do this…
> 
> Thank you for the money transfer, I really appreciate that you do this. I am writing you because there are a couple of things that I need to tell you. First I just wanted to remind you that I did not put you on my insurance for next year, so you will have to get your insurance through your work. Also, I wanted to tell you that I have retained my lawyer and have started the paper work to file for divorce. I still want this to be as amicable as possible but I needed to do what was best for me. She will be filing the petition with the courts and you will be notified. She is also helping me draw up an agreement that will be sent to you about the splitting up of our assets. It is up to you to go over it and either agree or disagree with pieces of it or all of it,etc. I am not trying to go behind your back but just work through this divorce in the easiest least hurtful way and I feel at this point having a lawyer help is what's best for me. I hope that you will understand and we can work together to get closure to this situation.
> 
> She didn’t even have the decency to give me a call….I don’t know how I am suppose to keep up the carrot and stick stuff when I get this kind of response from my wife…I been expecting to get a note like this from her for a while…
> 
> How can I keep the hope and the faith up…it seems she knows what she wants…and I know what I want I want my wife and my marriage.
> 
> JAR


Jar I reckon you are in denial and have been for a long time. Take a look at Denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Plus the advice you have been following hasn’t made one iota of difference to your wife’s position and I reckon you are in denial about that as well. But you kept on doing the same thing and expected different results.

It is true “We don’t know until we try” but you’ve been following the advice with a “blind faith”. You did not accept the “negative results” you were getting and change your tactics accordingly.

Bob


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## rydeaway

Jar, you are not alone in this journey. I passed this way more than ten years ago. You may be making this too hard on yourself by dragging it out. I have a 2 year old son made it very hard for me to accept the end of my marriage because I stubbornly refuse to give up for his sake. 
Let yourself grieve. Tell your story, feel sorry and cry in your beer. 
What worked for me was tio do somethings that marked a clear departure points for myself. I took a 3 day drive to my college town and places that I never visited before. Sat on the beach and reflect on what is happening to me. 
I rewarded myself for my resolve and bought a Cannondale bike. During the next few months I rode it a lot. It really helped me. 
To this day, it reminds me of the long rides into the night when my life was seemingly crumbling aroud me. 
Then one day I was buying dinner at the deli. A nice women came in and we chatted. She accidently touched me and I asked for her number and my life took a new turn.


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## tamara24

Jar,

First, let me say how sorry I am to hear that she has decided to file. But you have taken steps to know that you will get through this. First of all, your heart has wandered down another path and you developed a slight crush on a coworker,,so you know you can move on and take what you know into another relationship that will be healthier and sincere.
Second, I think a note to wife stating,Dear Wife, although I have expected this announcement for some time,I feel as if I have been slapped in the face. I want us to be able to work through this but I would have appreciated a face to face meeting or at the very least a phone call. I find the disalution of our marraige to be very -------. I would really appreciate a phone call from you so we can discuss things with no yelling or accusing. I want to be as civil about this as possible. I have tried to give you the space that you have asked me for and I hope that you will be willing to meet me half way.a divorce is a very final thing and I want to be sure that we have left no stone unturned and resolved any conflicts that we may have before we sign the paperwork. I am not saying I will not comply with your request. I am requesting thatt that we make sure that our marraige is beyond repair before doing something we may regret later in life.
I will post more later but I wanted you to know you have friends here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

I am unsure how I am going to respond to her email. I am not contacting her until I have thought things through more. I am very disappointed and hurt none the less.

I went for a long drive and discovered a very beautiful water fall today. 

It helped clear the mind but I am not seeing the clear path on what to do or how to proceed forward yet.

Oh and I will be the first to admit that I am in completely in denial that the woman that I love and cherish does not love me any longer. 

JAR


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## tamara24

Keep in mind, love can be different things. In the case of your wife, it may not be about loving you,but about all the hurt and betrayl and living with the things she has done in the marraige too. The last part being the kicker since she would have to admit all her wrong doings.
Divorce can be a way of escaping things people do not/can not face and it is an easy out. So don't think it is just that she woke up and said hey,I don't love him.
Thinking things through is a good start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh

tamara24 said:


> Keep in mind, love can be different things. In the case of your wife, it may not be about loving you,but about all the hurt and betrayl and living with the things she has done in the marraige too. The last part being the kicker since she would have to admit all her wrong doings.
> Divorce can be a way of escaping things people do not/can not face and it is an easy out. So don't think it is just that she woke up and said hey,I don't love him.
> Thinking things through is a good start.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That can happen, but you can also just move on. I will use a example of a guy I know I've used it before. His name was Chris he was in shape, aging very well hair perfect, smile perfect, he was a sportsmen, but was a contractor sort of blue collar type of job. He had 1 daughter 4 years old and his wife was always a SAHM who recently was going to school. She ended up getting a degree in computer information systems and landed a job working for NASA.....entry level.

All of sudden her world was changed she was with professionals, sharp, focused, successful males, and her blue collar sportsmen type hubby didn't seem so special anymore. He didn't do anything wrong (per se).......she had her eyes opened was selfish and ended up liking this new white collar world. She was very cute (girl next door type) and liked the $$$$ status these guys provided. She had a affair and ended up leaving just gone like a light switch. There was nothing Chris could say!

Long story short she left him and took the daughter......for a slightly older project manager. She hasn't looked back and they are divorced they rarely even talk now. Like he says she got what she wanted a BMW, a fancier life, a bigger house, etc etc. He is still resentful, but has moved on too. He would always say it was like a switch I thought everything was great and then just like that she wanted out!!

People change for whatever reason and they decide they want more and their spouse isn't the one to give it to them. Doesn't make it right, doesn't mean it's okay, and I truly have empathy for the people going through that. It happens people change it sucks!

I think JAR's wife is gone and has been for a very long time! I think he needs to move on and expedite this he may want to fight until the end for that clear conscious. I wouldn't I would have one more deep talk and then that's it see ya when I see ya!


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## turnera

jar said:


> I went for a long drive and discovered a very beautiful water fall today.


No fair! There's no such thing as a waterfall where I live. Flat as a pancake.

Personally, I would ignore her.


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## jar

for now i am not saying anyhting to her.....


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## jar

I am still unclear about what I am going to do about my wife. I don’t think I am ready to give up. I haven’t responded to her Sunday email regaring her attorney. 


I have been thinking I need to put myselfout there again and try to have a sinsear heart to heart talk with her much like we had this summer when we called off the mediator and I agrred to put the house up for sale.


I just got this email form her a minute ago.



Hi JAR,
I would like to talk to you about stuff. Could we talk on the phone? I would like to sit down and come to an agreement about our assets but would like to talk on the phone first. 
let me know what would work for you. 
Wife


Interesting thing is didn’t she tell me in her last email that I would be hereing from her attorney about this.

Interesting thing is now she wants to talk…wtf

She seems motivated to do this especially write before the holidays. But I am motivated to try and convincer otherwise.

I am unsure if I am even going to respond to this email or what I am going to say.

JAR


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## turnera

Well, if you don't want to divorce, why meet to discuss a divorce?


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## jar

good point turnera...good point


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> I am still unclear about what I am going to do about my wife. I don’t think I am ready to give up. I haven’t responded to her Sunday email regaring her attorney.


JAR--you know you better than we do here on a somewhat anonymous forum, so I trust your own judgement more than the opinions of people here. I can say that what I know of you, you are very consistent, steady and patient. You are not pursuing her in an unhealthy way nor are you waiting around for her before you have a life. You're just not done yet. That's fine--I would say if you're not done, don't be done. I don't get the feeling that you're hanging on to false hope or hoping to "fix someone who's broken." I would say you realistically understand that in order for her to change, she has to do it and as time goes longer, hope grows slimmer; however, at your wedding the hope was to celebrate your 50 year anniversary one day, so one year to give her every opportunity is 1/50th of what you thought your time together might have been. It seems like a worthwhile investment to me-1/50th of the time in order to get a healthy, loving marriage 49/50th of the time. I'd take that bet. 



> I have been thinking I need to put myselfout there again and try to have a sinsear heart to heart talk with her much like we had this summer when we called off the mediator and I agrred to put the house up for sale.


This may be something you want to do for you, so that you can tell yourself unequivocally that you were honest with her and gave her every chance. However, my guess is that a sincere "heart-to-heart" talk has a low-ish chance of success. It may be worth the try, but if I were you, I would not put too much stock into this making a difference...to her. To YOU it may make a big difference, for you will know that one last time, you were open to her, admitted your part, gave her a chance to make this all right, and asked her to end all this. YOU will be able to look yourself in the mirror. and if it does end, you'll be able to move on with a clear conscience. 



> I just got this email form her a minute ago.
> _Hi JAR,
> I would like to talk to you about stuff. Could we talk on the phone? I would like to sit down and come to an agreement about our assets but would like to talk on the phone first.
> let me know what would work for you.
> Wife_​Interesting thing is didn’t she tell me in her last email that I would be hereing from her attorney about this.
> 
> Interesting thing is now she wants to talk…wtf


You know what's funny? Who can understand the mind of a fogged in disloyal? :scratchhead:  I mean seriously! I can't tell you how many times we've been asked "What does she mean by that?" or "Is that a sign?"  Well how do we know? You knew her intimately and know her the best of every person in the universe and can't understand her, so we sure can't tell.  But I do also note that she is asking to talk on the phone and she did not mention an attorney. I also note that the topic is "about our assets" so that sounds like she wants "friendly separation/divorce talk" to me, but that's just a guess. 



> She seems motivated to do this especially right before the holidays. But I am motivated to try and convince (her) otherwise.
> 
> I am unsure if I am even going to respond to this email or what I am going to say.


To be honest, I would suggest one thing. Right now you seem to be somewhat focused on *"convincing her" *... of something. I think you want to know what the magic words are to convince her to not divorce you and love you again. I do believe you know that you can NOT convince her, and I don't mean because she's stubborn (although she is) but rather that she has to choose it for herself--not because she's "talked into it." When you try to talk someone into it, what you're effectively saying is: "I want what **I** want even if it hurts you or makes you uncomfortable." So let me ask you this: when I want my desire selfishly and don't really care if it hurts you or not, exactly how much interest do you have in giving me my selfish desire? NONE? Is your first reaction to sort of pull back and say, "HEY I'm not just going to do what **you** want because that hurts me! Stop trying to force me!" Don't you think that could partly explain your wife? 

Maybe what you should do very literally IS a 180 degree turn from what you have been doing. Have a heart-to-heart with her and say, _"Okay I get it. You don't want me, you don't want the house, and you want me to stop hurting you to get what I want. So here's my request. I'll move into the house and you can move to some cute apartment in the city that you love, and you can have what YOU want. In exchange, I would ask that rather than a divorce, we do a legal separation. If we legally separate, I'd like the chance to be able to court you and date you like we did in the beginning when I first convinced you to marry me. I'd also be willing to treat you like a girl I'm dating and I'd let you set the pace and what you're comfortable with. I will not date anyone else but you so I honor my vow, and I would ask you to do the same, but again, that's your decision--you choose for your own self and what you can live with. What do you say?"_ 

In a weird way can you see how this might be a) entirely different than what you have been doing, b) be shocking enough to maybe take her by surprise, and c) acknowledge what SHE wants ahead of what you want?

Okay another option:

_"Okay I would be happy to talk to you on the phone. I've been wanting to discuss moving back into the house, and this would be the perfect time. My hope is to be moving into the house before the holidays. I'd love it if it was the two of us living in the house, but if you don't want to be in the house with me that would be your decision to make. When would you like to talk?"_ 

In this approach, you still have the shock and the "being different" but you are stating what YOU want and giving her the chance to state what SHE wants. You like that house. You want to live in it (preferably with her there with you) but if not...that's cool. She wants to "move forward" and take action? Fine--take the wind out of her sails by surprising her! 

All I'm saying is that if you choose to continue to try, part of working on your marriage might be demonstrating to her that you won't hurt her in order to get what you want. It may take something drastic to shake up this pattern.


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## tamara24

Ok, I read the above posts. I agree with the examples above. Now, I have NOT read the carrot and stick ideas nor anything on what you are going through.

What gets me is the use of technology to end a marraige. There is soo much texting and emailing,that what happened to good old fashioned talking. You are married to this woman and so many things are lost in translation and things that get assumed. How do you really resolve these things without talking face to face? I know it can be hurtful, you have less time to think things through before responding. I can see your wife sending the email to you this morning because she is concerned that you have not responded to her from the weekend. I do think she has decided on her course,but you stopped communicating! You don't plan to fix your problems by refusing to talk,right?

I know you were honoring her wishes and finding yourself,but meet with her, talk and watch for her reactions, her touches,her face,her eyes. Then you get that oppurtunity to talk to her and see how she reacts.maybe she has things to say to you. I believe affaircare has excellent ideas, I just think you should say it in person. If you think about it,how many people can say,I saved my marraige through texting?

Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## jar

Afaircare & Tamara

I have been up all night thinking about both of your posts. You are completely write about the email and texting thing.

Every one of my friends I talk to has mentioned moving back home.

Affaircare this is a very interesting idea that you have proposed. I have been thinking about if I am willing to go back home. The truth is where I live now doesn’t feel like home and I don’t like living in the middle of know where even know it is a bit more convenient.

So I think the answer is I would be willing to move home. 

This would be a huge shock to her I think and really catch her off guard and is something that I doubt she has thought of. 

The heart to heart convincing talks I have tried in the past has never worked. It does make me feel better but really hasn’t been affective. So I think you are right that by doing this it is a bit controlling. She needs to make the descion on her own to be in this marriage. Just maybe by having her get out of the situation she is in with the house might make some love unit deposits. Just maybe she would be willing to date me again and open to the possibility that we could fall in love again.

I think I am going to talk to her about.

Thank you
JAR


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## hmm

I like the idea of doing something "unexpected" Im sure in her head she has all of this worked out and with all of this time that has passed she probably thinks she knows what you are going to say and do to "whoo" her back but this is completely out of left field.


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## tamara24

You better believe she has this all worked out in her head. This emailing you, she knows you will eventually email back and there is no face to face confrontation.Why? Because she does not want to see you physically to watch you get upset over any of this. She feels bad and that would add to the bank of guilt she has going.
Taking her totally off guard is good,but as I said do it in person. Then you get to see HER face.
She is counting on the fact that by emailing/texting,you have time to think before you say anything that might her or make her feel bad. 
It might do her good to be out of that house and on her own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just expect her to get very upset with you saying you want to move home. Ignore it and keep reiterating what you want - to be home with your kids and hopefully her.


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## jar

I fully expect it….

But hey one of my boundaries is I wont accept angry outburst any more during a conversation. So I can leave and come back at another time once she has had a chance to process. 

Thanks
JAR


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## turnera

Just hope she doesn't change the locks while you're waiting for her to calm down.


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## Tanelornpete

LOL


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## jar

Well imagine that the s#$% is about to hit the fan.

I decided that I am going to go for it and sent this note to the wife as a heads up. Letting her know I want to get together to talk. So she should have a day or two to calm down but I imagine that the emails and texts are going to start coming my way. 

I have also made another decision I only talk on the phone or face to face for now on. No more emails and texts.

Hey Wife

I can stop by Friday night or Sunday. Let me know.

I have been really sick with a cold this week.

I have been wanting to discuss moving back into the house and this would be a perfect opportunity.

Love
JAR


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## Affaircare

I would say just bear in mind W-T-F-S and let her know that you are stating what you would like and she is free to state what she would like. You aren't forcing her or trying to control her, but you also do have a right to be in your own home if that's what you like. Know what I mean? 

If she does email/text with blowing off steam etc. just count to ten, delete them and give her a minute to get it off her chest. Take it for what it is--her way of adjusting to the shock and nothing more. And if you get overwhelmed, you can always turn off the phone, close the email or take a break by just walking away. I think she may be afraid you're attacking her, so if you stay calm it may reassure her that it's not an attack.


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## jar

Well no drama today. I just got a text email and facebook message from wife all with in a matter of 5 minutes asking what time I would be getting to the house tomorrow.

All messages came from her iphone. Wonder where she is. Maybe just laying low tonight and staying off the computer.

I hope some how this makes a difference for the better. I need all the positive mojo I can get.

Thanks for all the advice AC and Pete

JAR


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## Affaircare

There ya go--a six-pack a mojo!


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## notreadytoquit

Affaircare you are the best! Where do you find all these pictures?


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## Affaircare

Oh be-have! I am an international woman of mystery!


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## hmm

Jar,
I have followed your thread for a few months and you have put an amazing amount of work into bettering yourself for you and your marriage and have had so much patience and understanding for your wife. I guess what I'm curious about have you thought about what if you could win her back what would that look like? would you really want her? Is she really everything that you remember? I guess these are some of the questions I'm currently struggling with so I was wondering if you have thoughy of any of these things.
wishing all the best for you, HMM


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## OhGeesh

^^^^
I wonder the same!! You want her the way she was before would you want her the way she is now after everything?

I'm going through a bit with my college age daughter. I love her to death....the way she was....the way she is now is like night and day.

It will take a lot for our relationship to be anything close to the way it was. I have to believe the amount of work it would take for you and your wife to make it would be extraordinary.

Maybe that is why my advice has been to move on with someone new....

Good luck!!


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## Tanelornpete

For hmmm - the answer to that dilemma is to remember that the marriage consists of the promise to love together and work together. People change over time, but that promise does not. Instead, within the marriage, the couple works together to strengthen it, and in the process, love one another. (Love, in this case, being the true meaning of the word: treating others in a way the is best for them.)

Emotions follow actions (actually, emotions and actions follow thoughts, but that's another issue...)


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## hmm

Tanelornpete said:


> For hmmm - the answer to that dilemma is to remember that the marriage consists of the promise to love together and work together. People change over time, but that promise does not. Instead, within the marriage, the couple works together to strengthen it, and in the process, love one another. (Love, in this case, being the true meaning of the word: treating others in a way the is best for them.)
> 
> Emotions follow actions (actually, emotions and actions follow thoughts, but that's another issue...)


You know that makes a ton of sense I think when someone is suffering and going through this trauma that it is easy to forget to be sensible. Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Jar,

Wishing you luck tonight. Make sure you stay calm and when you do talk to her no matter how loud, or accusing it gets,you stay completely composed.this will throw her off a bit but then it will make her angry that she can't get a rise out of you. Be aware.

She is anxious to see you,picking tonight over Sunday and getting through to you in all uses of communication. Either she wants to see how you are faring since no talking is going on or you have got her going on the house comment. Either way,again,be prepared.
Just on a side note, wear some nice smelling cologne. Make sure you look nice. If she gets ugly, just tell her,you need to go,you have plans. That way, you have an out and don't look like a chicken,if you need to get away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

I tried to look my best today. I was sick and in bed again all day and didn’t make it to work.

I managed to meet with my wife at the house tonight….However I looked like a drugged up zombie.

Thanks for the MOJO Affaircare…

Hmm and Gesh…You bring up interesting questions…I am not sure how to answer. I am not looking to go back to what once was because it didn’t work for my wife or me. I just want to get the chance to get to know my wife all over again and maybe fall in love again…Maybe I won’t like the new her maybe I will. I just want the chance to see where it goes.

I know I have all most know chance at this point. Butt I am not going to stop trying.

I am still processing everything from this evening.

Things didn’t go as I had imagined… My wife was very calm and sober tonight. She was also looking pretty good to. She had a new hair cut and I liked it…I complimented her a few times.

After saying Hi to my dog for a few minutes we sat at the kitchen table and began talking. I told wife I wanted to move back home. She asked why and I told her that I was sick of living in the woods and that my home was here until the house sold.

She quickly changed the subject and began discussing her attorney and our possessions. She presented me with another inventory of our possessions and stayed I am giving you everything. Lawn mower my jeep the boat my tools and machinery etc. She also presented me with some sort of agreement which I have not read and talked to me about how things would work when she filed. She also wants me to get back to her in the next week or two about the agreement and our possessions. She asked about my attorney. She asked if I was going to fight her on this. Like I had during mediation. I told her I would be standing up for my self on what I think is right and fair. She told me if we don’t come to agreement and this goes to court that it wouldn’t happen till April or may….She then said they will send us strait to mediation which will cost more money. If an agreement can’t be met in mediation it will then go before a judge. She actually told me I don’t need to hire a layer and this wont cost me anything. My response to all this was I had several avenues I was considering in all this and I am not sure which path I am tacking yet. Her eyes bulged out a little when I said that. She is worried about this tacking a long time and costing lots of money.

She was a little teary eyed during this part of the conversations. I just said you are in a lot pain still aren’t you. Her response was I am doing fine with all this.

So I switched gears and went back to my subject of moving back in. Right off the bat she didn’t think living together was a good idea…I told her look you have a need to move on in your life and moving out of this house and community that you don’t like could be a really good thing. I said ideally I would like you to be here with me. She then told me she is tacking the dog with her and that if she moved out she would need time to find a place for her and the dog. She wanted to know if I was going to get a roommate and keep the house up for sale. I told her no on the roommate and yes on keeping the house for sale.

I explained that I wanted to date her after she moved out and wanted to see if we can fall in love again. I told her I planed to stay true to my vows for as long as I can. Wife explained that it was too late for falling in love again. I asked her why that is. She told me because she doesn’t have those feelings for me. I told I reminded her of jeep day and the late nights of us working on the house. I explained you were letting me back in. You were smiling and having fun. We were flirting and joking around. Wife response was that is just what I was showing you. My response was those feelings at that time were genuine and I new her well enough to tell the difference.

The conversation switched gears a little at this point and it went into just general conversation about our families and stuff. She asked about Vegas and wanted to know more details about that. She actually said I keep up pretty well with what is going on in your life by your brothers face book comments. I almost never post things on face book. She also new that my cousin went with us. I built a photo sharing website and I think she must of stumbled across that because that is the only place she saw pictures with the car show and pictures of my cousin and she seem to know all about it.

So the conversation switched again. This is where the wife started to make shelf demands by saying things like I am tacking this and that. She actually said she is tacking the dog with her as well. My response to all this was we can talk about it.

I never lost it. I kept my self together. She did pretty good as well and never really lost her composure.

I gave her a hug on the way out the door and headed down to my families place.

Who knows if tonight had any affect on her? I hope it did.

Thanks everyone
JAR


----------



## OhGeesh

jar said:


> I tried to look my best today. I was sick and in bed again all day and didn’t make it to work.
> 
> I managed to meet with my wife at the house tonight….However I looked like a drugged up zombie.
> 
> Thanks for the MOJO Affaircare…
> 
> Hmm and Gesh…You bring up interesting questions…I am not sure how to answer. I am not looking to go back to what once was because it didn’t work for my wife or me. I just want to get the chance to get to know my wife all over again and maybe fall in love again…Maybe I won’t like the new her maybe I will. I just want the chance to see where it goes.
> 
> I know I have all most know chance at this point. Butt I am not going to stop trying.
> 
> I am still processing everything from this evening.
> 
> Things didn’t go as I had imagined… My wife was very calm and sober tonight. She was also looking pretty good to. She had a new hair cut and I liked it…I complimented her a few times.
> 
> After saying Hi to my dog for a few minutes we sat at the kitchen table and began talking. I told wife I wanted to move back home. She asked why and I told her that I was sick of living in the woods and that my home was here until the house sold.
> 
> She quickly changed the subject and began discussing her attorney and our possessions. She presented me with another inventory of our possessions and stayed I am giving you everything. Lawn mower my jeep the boat my tools and machinery etc. She also presented me with some sort of agreement which I have not read and talked to me about how things would work when she filed. She also wants me to get back to her in the next week or two about the agreement and our possessions. She asked about my attorney. She asked if I was going to fight her on this. Like I had during mediation. I told her I would be standing up for my self on what I think is right and fair. She told me if we don’t come to agreement and this goes to court that it wouldn’t happen till April or may….She then said they will send us strait to mediation which will cost more money. If an agreement can’t be met in mediation it will then go before a judge. She actually told me I don’t need to hire a layer and this wont cost me anything. My response to all this was I had several avenues I was considering in all this and I am not sure which path I am tacking yet. Her eyes bulged out a little when I said that. She is worried about this tacking a long time and costing lots of money.
> 
> She was a little teary eyed during this part of the conversations. I just said you are in a lot pain still aren’t you. Her response was I am doing fine with all this.
> 
> So I switched gears and went back to my subject of moving back in. Right off the bat she didn’t think living together was a good idea…I told her look you have a need to move on in your life and moving out of this house and community that you don’t like could be a really good thing. I said ideally I would like you to be here with me. She then told me she is tacking the dog with her and that if she moved out she would need time to find a place for her and the dog. She wanted to know if I was going to get a roommate and keep the house up for sale. I told her no on the roommate and yes on keeping the house for sale.
> 
> I explained that I wanted to date her after she moved out and wanted to see if we can fall in love again. I told her I planed to stay true to my vows for as long as I can. Wife explained that it was too late for falling in love again. I asked her why that is. She told me because she doesn’t have those feelings for me. I told I reminded her of jeep day and the late nights of us working on the house. I explained you were letting me back in. You were smiling and having fun. We were flirting and joking around. Wife response was that is just what I was showing you. My response was those feelings at that time were genuine and I new her well enough to tell the difference.
> 
> The conversation switched gears a little at this point and it went into just general conversation about our families and stuff. She asked about Vegas and wanted to know more details about that. She actually said I keep up pretty well with what is going on in your life by your brothers face book comments. I almost never post things on face book. She also new that my cousin went with us. I built a photo sharing website and I think she must of stumbled across that because that is the only place she saw pictures with the car show and pictures of my cousin and she seem to know all about it.
> 
> So the conversation switched again. This is where the wife started to make shelf demands by saying things like I am tacking this and that. She actually said she is tacking the dog with her as well. My response to all this was we can talk about it.
> 
> I never lost it. I kept my self together. She did pretty good as well and never really lost her composure.
> 
> I gave her a hug on the way out the door and headed down to my families place.
> 
> Who knows if tonight had any affect on her? I hope it did.
> 
> Thanks everyone
> JAR


Best of luck JAR.....she sounds like my mom! My mom and first husband got a divorce she said "here" you take everything I just want my things, a little $$, and the cat you can have everything else. She just wanted out!

I still say there are many fish in the sea, you deserve better, there is better, and you will one day find better! Who knows maybe you did make a impact I definitely wouldn't get my hopes up!!


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## tamara24

Good for you, Jar

Don't you find it interesting that she is keeping up with the details in your life? If she has no feelings, why would she care what you were doing then? Why also would she assume that since she is currently living in the home and you are contributing to the mortgage that she would not have to do that if she choose to move out on her own until the house is sold?

No one wants to lose money,but telling you not to worry about a lawyer and this is not going to cost you,kinda sounds like a child not getting what they want(immediate gratification) so I will manipulate. Also,why is she so determined to get the dog? So far, I believe the dog is used like a kid in the divorce. 

So now, when ya moving in? This is going on the last couple of weeks of the month. Christmas is coming, such a good month for love bank points. First, did you always enjoy putting the Christmas decorations out together? Do this with her. If she balks, hey it can only make the house look more appealing to be sold: hang that mistletoe! Ask for help picking out gifts for your nieces. Even if she makes it clear you are not going to her family functions. Just state,I just want them to know I still love them. Go buy a real tree,some Christmas coffee or tea. Nothing beats that smell in the house. Plus you can find tree farms wheere you cut your own tree. This could be a disguised date and bring some laughs. There is so many things to do in these months,you have a lot of potential there.

On the other hand, don't go all gushy, or she will see it as a ploy to win her back. .this also gives time for ample talking face to face. It won't be easy,just give it all you got!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh

As Tam said, I would be moving in ASAP. I wouldn't have left in the first place it's YOUR house as much as it is hers!!

As far as everything else Tam it can't hurt, but given her previous responses she already thinks anything JAR does is to win her back....don't you think?

She has made it clear...this won't work, I don't want it to work, as far as why is she checking up on him? Why wouldn't she? I still look at some of my old exes FB page and my wife her ex BF pages when people are a part of your life I don't think you ever stop wondering what's going on with them for a mulititude of reasons....at least I don't.

Considering they are still married, have to go through a divorce (in her eyes), it makes perfect sense that she would check up you don't think?


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## Atholk

Affaircare said:


> Oh be-have! I am an international woman of mystery!


Actually she was a Fem-Bot the whole time!


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## Atholk

Hang on I'm trying to catch up on 50 pages in this thread here.

She cheated and you moved out?


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## OhGeesh

^^^^
Start reading you have a lot of background to catch up on


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## jar

There’s something I can’t put my figure on but there something not right…

Wife was very calm last night. I can tell me moving home is something she hadn’t thought much about.

It was almost like she was very comfortable living in the house with out me. She seemed content 

Like I said something doesn’t seem right. 

I asked if she is seeing anyone else and she said OM was still part of her life. Last time I asked she said she stills seem him some. I think the affair is stronger than ever. I also think she is spending a lot of time with the OM in my house or at his place with my dog. Both things she said she wouldn’t do. 

I ignored my intuition for way to long and something doesn’t feel write.

1 year ago is when this affair began to develop. The day before thanksgiving is when it went physical. 

My mom told me a story from last year that she never shared with me. Wife went shopping after thanksgiving with my mom and the entire time during shopping wife was acting goofy. Was insulting and was texting constantly that day to OM. My mom said that she thought that my wife was totally in love and infatuated with the OM. 

To answer some of your questions of when will I move in? The answer is I am not sure. If she doesn’t move out I am still moving home but I will problem integrate my self slowly back into the house. If she does go as soon as she is gone I will be back in.

She actually came up with some excuses of why she felt she couldn’t go. She worried I couldn’t handle keeping all the bills organized and paid. She worried the house wouldn’t sell with half of house emptied of its contents etc. My response to all these reactions were we can talk about it when she was ready. I recommend she talk to her family and friends about my proposition this week.

This time of year is wife’s favorite time of year. She loves giving. The weekend after thanksgiving her family comes down and we co to a place and cut down our own tree. It is usually a small one and spend the weekend decorating. I will admit it is not my favorite thing in the world. But I go a long with it.

OM is from India wife is a French Canadian catholic. Many of them still speak French. I don’t even know if the Indian culture celebrates xmas. This maybe the time a year when the cultures really clash. I am not sure.

We will see what happens. I don’t think things are looking good for us but we will see. 

JAR


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## Eli-Zor

Well Jar you should make hay while the sun shines. The OM is working in the same place as her. so, the item below is something you should do, start making your wife very uncomfortable. Write an email to all her work co-workers saying something like... 

As you are all aware my ______ has been in an adulterous affair with _______, my wife and I have had a number of conversations and I have decided to rejoin her in our marital home. 

Leave it at that .. nothing more.. 

It does a few things, it confirms to all she is still in the affair, the bosses are bound to hear, it causes doubt in the OM's mind , what can she say- deny it or say she is divorcing you, that is an admission she is cheating.

Your thread is very long, you have made huge strides but I do feel you have lost your wife and the process you have been following has not brought her back. You have one last hard punch to break this affair take it..Jar you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, I hate to say this -- you should have done what needs to be done to get the OM out of the way a long time ago, your past indecisions and being the nice guy is causing you an awful lot of pain. 


As for divorce, file first, start the process now hold the paper work back , depending what happens you may choose to let her know you will be calling the OM as a witness and will be subpoenaing all his and her private mail, company mail and phone records as well as requesting detail access to the financial accounts, if any monies has been spend by her on the affair these should be considered in the settlement. Hopeful this is some off or will never happen , plan for it don't sit around and wait. 

You may not be able to call the OM as witness etc etc..but the mentioning of it should cause her concern.

Jar be strong for yourself.


----------



## land2634

Eli-Zor said:


> Well Jar you should make hay while the sun shines. The OM is working in the same place as her. so, the item below is something you should do, start making your wife very uncomfortable. Write an email to all her work co-workers saying something like...
> 
> As you are all aware my ______ has been in an adulterous affair with _______, my wife and I have had a number of conversations and I have decided to rejoin her in our marital home.
> 
> Leave it at that .. nothing more..
> 
> It does a few things, it confirms to all she is still in the affair, the bosses are bound to hear, it causes doubt in the OM's mind , what can she say- deny it or say she is divorcing you, that is an admission she is cheating.
> 
> Your thread is very long, you have made huge strides but I do feel you have lost your wife and the process you have been following has not brought her back. You have one last hard punch to break this affair take it..Jar you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, I hate to say this -- you should have done what needs to be done to get the OM out of the way a long time ago, your past indecisions and being the nice guy is causing you an awful lot of pain.
> 
> 
> As for divorce, file first, start the process now hold the paper work back , depending what happens you may choose to let her know you will be calling the OM as a witness and will be subpoenaing all his and her private mail, company mail and phone records as well as requesting detail access to the financial accounts, if any monies has been spend by her on the affair these should be considered in the settlement. Hopeful this is some off or will never happen , plan for it don't sit around and wait.
> 
> You may not be able to call the OM as witness etc etc..but the mentioning of it should cause her concern.
> 
> Jar be strong for yourself.


I would respectfully disagree with Eli-Zor about e-mailing her co-workers. You have already been through the exposure stage and chances are those co-workers already know that the affair is ongoing. Messaging all of them, especially if you don't know all of them, would effectively be airing the dirty laundry, not necessarily just exposing the affair. Now, you will still likely come across people that will ask questions about your marriage at which point I say be honest, but I wouldn't be seeking out more people to tell at this point.


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## Eli-Zor

I guess he had best prepare for divorce then, the OM is still in the picture, his wife is still in the fog and the affair is ongoing... I see no other option.. ideas ???


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I would NEVER tell another person what to do (unless they are five years old), but I think both you and IANTOO are being way too passive. It is one thing to think things through and give her time, but it is something entirely different to be wasting precious time waiting for a miracle to occur on its own. I would love to see you both make a decisive move for your own sake. From personal experience, my peace of mind and happiness increased greatly when I did. Indecisiveness is stressful. Yes, it is scary. So is watching your spouse hurt you.


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## Eli-Zor

And to add if the OM gets fired he loses his work visa, back to India he goes, shame, Mrs. Jar is then into a forced NC.. Time for Jar to play his part...all this will never happen unless you do something tangible and tactical.


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## Affaircare

I would say that emailing to "all co-workers" would be a bad idea and more toward "airing dirty laundry" than effective exposure. After all the goal with exposure is not to embarrass the Disloyal into returning. You expose those who are effected in order to END the affair. 

To that regard, I would make the suggestion of mailing to the HR Department of the company with a notification of ongoing sexual harassment in the workplace. Here's why. As the spouse of one of their employees, the sexual contact is unwanted BY YOU. They have a legal responsibility, and employers, to address any unwanted sexual contact in the workplace and put an end to it. Furthermore technology they either gave her or allow her to use as part of her work (laptop, co. cell phone, co. pager, PC at work) may have been used to continue the sexual contact! Their own productivity is limited, lowered as a result of using THEIR technology of illegal activity! So they are REQUIRED to act and either review and remove the technology, transfer them...do SOMETHING! 

Here are the relevant federal laws (which I am copying from our book but I'll link directly to the laws here):

*Title VII of the Civil Rights Act *
_A FEDERAL law against sexual harassment which is applicable to any company with 15 employees or more. It reads:

"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."_​
*EEOC Title 29 CHAPTER XIV PART 1604 GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF SEX. 
Section 1604.11 (d)* _“With respect to conduct between fellow employees, an employer is responsible for acts of sexual harassment in the workplace where the employer (or its agents or supervisory employees) knows or should have known of the conduct, unless it can show that it took immediate and appropriate corrective action."_​
Thus your letter could say something like this:

This letter is to formally inform (boss' name and position) and the company, (company name), that unwanted sexual contact has been occurring at the workplace and that company property and/or time may have been used to foster unwanted sexual contact. The unwanted contact is an ongoing workplace affair between (his name) and (her name). Since Title 29 CHAPTER XIV PART 1604 GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF SEX says that: "(d) With respect to conduct between fellow employees, an employer is responsible for acts of sexual harassment in the workplace where the employer (or its agents or supervisory employees) knows or should have known of the conduct, unless it can show that it took immediate and appropriate corrective action" as the spouse of one of the involved parties I'm asking that company put an end to this classic "hostile work environment" sexual contact. Please use this date as the date the company was notified and knows for a fact of the unwanted sexual harassment. I am not a lawyer but I believe the company needs to know that due to the conduct of these two on work property, the company is at risk and vulnerable to at least two sexual harassment lawsuits. Can you please inform me how you intend to address, and correct this situation? 

By exposing to the HR Department, the impact to the affair is two-fold: 1) they have a legal responsibility to actively intervene or they will be liable for breaking federal law, thus a report of sexual harassment is usually taken pretty seriously, and 2) most states now have no-fault divorce so that they don't consider infidelity in the division of marital property, but if there is an active, ongoing legal case at work, that evidence WOULD be admissible and relevant in a divorce case. Thus evidence that could be used in the sexual harassment case MIGHT be admissible in the divorce case...and that opens up the opportunity to subpoena their emails, etc. 

Remember the goal in exposure is not just to embarrass her. The goal is to inform those who would be affected by her choice to seek sexual contact outside the marriage, and her employer very well COULD be in a major federal lawsuit! It would also deliver the 1-2 punch of ending contact at work, possibly deporting the OM (enforced NC), and really weakening her position in the divorce!!

Now, JAR, I know you. You'll think, "Yeah but isn't that mean? Won't she be mad? That will drive her away, not bring her back!" Let me lay some truth on you. This is not a Mr. Niceguy move, but no matter how much she tries to blame you or avoid personal responsibility, the FACT of the matter is that she has broken a federal law by engaging in unwanted sexual contact in the workplace. If she does not want to face the consequences of breaking a federal law, all she has to do at any point is end the affair. But rather than stopping the criminal behavior and taking responsibility for the choices SHE has made and continues to make, she is mad because you are making her face the truth of her adultery and not "keeping it a secret." So it's not mean to tell the truth. If she were being faithful you could tell the truth (I have the most honest, faithful wife!) and the consequences would be possibly praise and admiration right? So telling the truth is not what's causing all this damage; it is her CONSCIOUS CHOICE to continue an illegal activity on work property. 

So use every tool at your disposal. She may get mad and she may lose some in the divorce, but those are the costs of HER choice! Okay? Sometimes when we love an addict, we *have to* do the hard thing and allow them to go to jail so they can see the costs of the drug and choose to get off it--same here. Love her enough to do what she needs, and she NEEDS to learn to take personal responsibility for her choices and experience the consequence of her choices. Okay??


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## OhGeesh

^^^^
In general I hate the "tell the employer" crap. How many of you have actually seen this happen in real life not in theory?

I have three times twice for a Fortune 500 company and once for a 200M market cap company. At the Fortune 500 company BOTH TIMES BOTH the spouse and the other person were terminated!!

At the smaller company it was just "Keep this on the down low until the divorce is final"

If JAR is willing to go this route then so be it. Since I don't believe in the fog when it's been a 1 year long affair/relationship that makes it very real imo.....not a fog.

I would just move on, but that is up to JAR!!


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## Affaircare

You make very valid points, OhGeesh. I've seen mixed results as well in actual practice. In larger corporations I've seen everything firing to transfers, but it is rarely ignored. In smaller companies half the time it's the boss who's in the affair or is having one of their own, so they brush it off and/or ignore it. 

And yep in real life there is no guarantee which way it would go. But that's pretty much the case with all 7 of the steps! I mean all 7 can work and end the affair right then and there...or all 7 could lead to divorce. From our point of view, the reason there even are 7 steps is that they go from most private to more public, from "this has a pretty good chance of working" to "this is a pretty slim chance.' 

And finally, I think we are all in agreement that JAR isn't deluding himself or in denial. It's been a year now, and according to counselor Janis Abrahms Spring, author of After the Affair, as reported by the Washington Post: 10% of extramarital affairs last one day, 10% last more than one day but less than a month, 50% last more than a month but less than a year, but 40% last two or more years. The longer it goes, the lower the odds of success. But in the end, it is JAR's life and JAR has to live with his choices.


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## tamara24

Jar,
You are now the complete reverse of what you started out with. Now you THINK to much.she has decided to move on and you want to EASE into moving back in? You stated wife is way to calm. Maybe she is thinking with you moving in,she can move out and be on her own. She can be free of the house. She also worries about whether you can handle the bills. Maybe you should think about that. Jar is a grown man who can't be responsible enough to pay his bills??? I know you are comfy with the fact that she sees and pays your bills. But chew on this. My hubby couldn't remember to pay a bill if his life depended on it. I would have to write the check,put in the payment stub and give it to him the day it was due and most likely text him to remind him to drop it off. You do not seem like that type of guy. I will tell you that I feel tons of stress from being the sole party responsible for making out bills. Not because, it is taxing and beyond my capability,but because what happens when I am dealing with both kids with chronic conditions and getting three hours sleep? Should I not be able to rely on my partner to help me? Now realizing,you do not have kids, wife is the caretaker in the family and she handles the bills. She will even say,I do not need your help. So would I as much as I would LOVE the help. Why? Because I would have to give up control. Can your wife give up control? Plus if she has moved on, why does she care if you pay your bills on time(if your divorced her name would not be on them)

As far as the affair goes. I would not tell the boss. Simply because she would harbor more resentment towards you. But easing back into the house gives OM time to keep moving in on your wife. At some point,you need to take charge. If your at the house, the OM will not be visiting. One less place for them to continue the affair. If your at the house, tensions are going to mount as OM will not like you having access to your wife as much. 

If your not ready to move on,then you have to be willing to take charge. Pay your own bills, make your own dinners, move back in,do your own laundry. Show her that you do not need her there in those ways but you want her there in other ways. Do I think any move you make will seem like an attempt to get her back. Yes,I do. But if you show her that you can live life just fine either way and you are still CHOOSING to be with her, you might have a chance. If she thinks you can't take care of yourself, she will never see you as the new man you have become.I realize you are also trying to consider her feelings, but now you need to think about yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I agree with affaircare about telling HR.


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## jar

I am thinking about heading this route.

I must say I am not exactly comfortable with this but I am worming up to the idea.

I like this better than some of the other suggestions. Some of the other ideas presented here are more like scare tactics and controlling threats.

My wife’s company is a huge company. I believe the employee count is around 18000. I would send the letter to corporate HR which is off site. When they have been involved in matters there normally is resolution. When things are left to the VP site head things tend to get brushed under the rug.

I realize my siltation has got progressively gotten worst over this past year. I guess I look at it like R&D you explorer and research all avenues and try various different things until the problem is solved. Sometimes things get worst before things get better. Hopefully with enough persistence I will be able to find the right functional combination to melt my wife’s wall. 

Thanks for everything

JAR


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## Eli-Zor

Jar 
Non of this is a scare tactic this is an action that should have occurred a long time ago. Jar be brave and at a minimum follow AC's advice and words, you deliberating means you may not do it and are looking at the inner nice guy, again or is it still, all you are going to do is tell the truth, nothing more, nothing less. 

Do this now before the moment is lost.


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## OhGeesh

jar said:


> I am thinking about heading this route.
> 
> I must say I am not exactly comfortable with this but I am worming up to the idea.
> 
> I like this better than some of the other suggestions. Some of the other ideas presented here are more like scare tactics and controlling threats.
> 
> My wife’s company is a huge company. I believe the employee count is around 18000. I would send the letter to corporate HR which is off site. When they have been involved in matters there normally is resolution. When things are left to the VP site head things tend to get brushed under the rug.
> 
> I realize my siltation has got progressively gotten worst over this past year. I guess I look at it like R&D you explorer and research all avenues and try various different things until the problem is solved. Sometimes things get worst before things get better. Hopefully with enough persistence I will be able to find the right functional combination to melt my wife’s wall.
> 
> Thanks for everything
> 
> JAR


Let me say that while that may work......everytime it has been a pissed off phone call to the horses mouth.

The latest at the Fortune 500 company was a call to the Corporate HR complaining about the affair at one of the company's sites, then a call to the HR dept. at that site with much more "irateness", it took 3 weeks before BOTH the spouse and person in the affair were terminated.

Good ole phone calls work great......a letter could take a long time. A indignent pissed off tone helps too


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## Eli-Zor

> The latest at the Fortune 500 company was a call to the Corporate HR complaining about the affair at one of the company's sites, then a call to the HR dept. at that site with much more "irateness", it took 3 weeks before BOTH the spouse and person in the affair were terminated.
> 
> Good ole phone calls work great......a letter could take a long time. A indignent pissed off tone helps to


Yes Yes Yes

Do both letter and call. Send the letter before you call as Jar your personality tells me you think to much, you mull and this then stops any action, by then the bus has left.


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## OhGeesh

I want to reiterate it's already been 1 year!! That is a long time I wouldn't call this a fog anymore....there can very easily be strong strong feelings even love involved at this point.

I've seen people get married in less than a year! All of this may be too little too late. As Tam said will make things worse if she still chooses to move forward with the divorce.......

Jar this is the final make/break if you get her fired......she may not talk to you ever again. Good luck!!


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## Eli-Zor

> I want to reiterate it's already been 1 year!! That is a long time I wouldn't call this a fog anymore....there can very easily be strong strong feelings even love involved at this point.


Yes, I agree, he has been filling her love bank behind your back 



> I've seen people get married in less than a year! All of this may be too little too late. As Tam said will make things worse if she still chooses to move forward with the divorce.......


She is already moving to divorce if that is not evident then Jar had best get glasses and read the fine print, no insult intended Jar just plain speak . 




> Jar this is the final make/break if you get her fired......she may not talk to you ever again. Good luck!!


Yes, assume you have already lost her, from what you have written you have, so any action you take will irk her but you have some chance now of recovering your marriage, a slim chance but a chance still. I had a negative thought and wondered if the OM is seeking a long term residence visa through marriage, if this is true delays are good, refuse to divorce outright. 

Any action she attempts to take to dissolve the marriage you delay, do nothing unless you are forced to.


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## bestplayer

OhGeesh said:


> I want to reiterate it's already been 1 year!! That is a long time I wouldn't call this a fog anymore....there can very easily be strong strong feelings even love involved at this point.
> 
> I've seen people get married in less than a year! All of this may be too little too late. As Tam said will make things worse if she still chooses to move forward with the divorce.......
> 
> Jar this is the final make/break if you get her fired......she may not talk to you ever again. Good luck!!


I completely agree . It is now ridiculous to inform her co-workers about her affair in an attempt to make her uncomfortable while being with the om . Actually it looks like begging strangers for help in one's personal matters. It will make you appear as too desperate .


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## michzz

Don't get her fired. Why?

Be practical. If she is unemployed, guess who's on the hook for spousal support? You!


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## jar

So Contacting HR is one avenue that I am really considering. I do realize the repercussion it could have for me the OM and my wife. Honestly the reason I am considering it is because it would shake things up and really stress the situation.

It seems that people here are 50/50 on this option.

I made a pretty big proposal to my wife on Friday. I am going to let this sit with her for the week while she is visiting her family.

So here is what I am going to do this week. I am going to get my ducks in a row. I think I am going to hire a new attorney. She has a woman attorney so there for I think I am hiring a woman attorney. I am going to talk to this attorney about a whole strategy here including this sexual harassment avenue. 

I am very well aware of my chances here. I am not in denial over this.

Thanks for the input

JAR


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## Tanelornpete

> I want to reiterate it's already been 1 year!! That is a long time I wouldn't call this a fog anymore....there can very easily be strong strong feelings even love involved at this point.


Actually, 'strong feelings and even love' have nothing to do with 'the fog' - which is one reason I find it such an unfortunate word to use for the concept.

Strong feelings and even 'love' are usually there from the beginning, otherwise there wouldn't be much of an affair, would there? The key is not 'are there feelings (strong or weak, large or small), but 'is this behavior the way my spouse has always acted? 

'Strong feelings and even love' are most certainly not part of the fog: most likely these things were once aimed in the direction of the loyal spouse - this is not out of character. What is out of character is the justification for giving them to someone _other than the person to whom they were promised_. Feelings simply exist, it is extreme foolishness to use them as any guideline to making a decision. At the very best, they can only indicate that some thought process is taking place that should be strongly considered. 

But your word takes precedence over your feelings (which come and go). Marriage vows do not change from moment to moment - and when we speak of 'the fog' we are pointing out that justifications for why it is OK to break a promise (things that earlier would never have been considered.)

While I doubt seriously that approaching HR would 'make things worse' if she chose to move forward with a divorce (it wouldn't change a judge's or a jury's mind in the slightest if HR knew of infidelity or not) I am not sure this step is necessary. The only way the marriage will be recovered is if JAR's wife chose to return.

I can say this: discovering that the affair has been ongoing explains a lot of the dismissive behavior of JAR's wife. Things make a lot more sense! 



> Jar this is the final make/break if you get her fired......she may not talk to you ever again. Good luck!!


May or may not. If every decision a man made was based ONLY upon the absolute knowledge of a certain outcome, very few decisions would be made - and very little progress would ever be achieved. Risks are a necessity and an unavoidable part of being less than omniscient.

Regardless, it seems to me that choosing to assist the Other Man in keeping his job at the expense of JAR's marriage seems just as foolish as does refusing to take the risk that JAR's wife may divorce him ANYWAY does to many people! 

Its up to JAR.


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## Affaircare

Hey JAR~

I would like to be very, very clear about something. When I wrote, the suggestion was being given to expose the affair to "all her co-workers" and so I wrote to say "Nope, if you are going to expose to anyone it would not be with the purpose of creating gossip or embarrassment, but rather to expose where it will be most effective in breaking the affair. Emailing to the co-workers would not be effective--going to the HR Dept would be because there are legal ramifications and they will need to respond." This was not necessarily a suggestion on my part to say "I think you should do this." More precisely it was "If you are going to expose, go to HR." 

Here's the big problem I do see. It is, in fact, a year later. Going to HR would have absolutely been the most effective about 10-11 months ago when the affair was still relatively young and there was some hope of clearing foggy thinking. Now an entire year has gone by, and the longer the affair continues, the more set-in-stone the foggy way of thinking becomes. Some argue/suggest that it's not fog, but I personally think that the fog is still there--it's just become an ingrained, habitual way of thinking such that it becomes part of "who she is." 

The fact of the matter is that for this to really work, at some point SHE would have to reach the conclusion that she wants to end the affair of her own volition--and follow that conclusion with actions to honor her promises to you on your wedding day. At this late date, if you DO go to the HR Dept, it may very well be successful in getting company laptop or cell phone removed, getting them separated/transferred, or in even getting them fires which then results in some enforced No Contact. Not being in contact may lead to some clearing (so it's not utterly hopeless) but with an entire year of having that fog ingrained in her thinking, behavior, and personality...in my opinion, it's much more likely that foggy thinking has become (or is becoming) part of who she is, namely a person who blames others for her choices and who looks to others to "make her feel happy" so that it's not her own job to be responsible for herself. 

JAR, if you determine in your heart to expose, go to HR but to be completely frank, my ADVICE to you--what I would suggest if I were in your shoes where you are now--would be to keep your focus on your own issues, keep being the man you have the potential to be, and keep respectfully moving forward on your own life. For example, the idea of saying you want to move back home is a good step because it is verbalizing what you really do want to do, and it is moving forward on yourself and your own life. You have the opportunity to use some of your new skills (like W-T-F-S); you have the opportunity to make respectful requests and reach mutual agreement (all things you would not have done "in the past" in your marriage); and you are acting in a way that builds YOU, whether she comes around or not. 

THEN let her either come around or not. If she doesn't, that will be her loss because you've grown--and yes it would be a loss for you as well, but ideally, to reunite and rebuild a happy, loving marriage, she would have to grow too! So you keep YOUR side of the street clean, honest, growing, moving and let her decide if she's going to join you or choose to dishonor her covenant. You are called to a life of peace, and I personally think that if you did go the HR route it would cause a lot of legal wrangling and maneuvering that would not result in her wanting to return to you or the marriage. However, if your discovery that the work affair is ongoing leads you to want to expose to someone again--then my suggestion would be to do it where it *may* be profitable, and that is HR not "emailing to the co-workers". 

Make sense? In summary I personally think that after a year, the foggy thinking has become part of who she is; that if the marriage were to reconcile, it would require her to WANT to return of her own accord; that if you are determined to expose, go to HR and not "to the coworkers"; but that the most profitable thing you can probably do right now is keep your focus on being the man you have the potential to be and on moving ahead with some of the new ways and things you've learned. I like the step of saying you want to move home. I think that is moving in the best direction possible and it gives her the chance to either decide to be with you or to go...but either way if she were to stay SHE would have to decide that. 

If you have a question, just let me know.


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## turnera

Honestly, at this point, after a year, I would go Plan B. Start your own life and let her follow if she chooses. It's been too long.


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## jar

This year has been a terrible year and it has really forced me to take a look deep inside of my self.


I am just starting to be able to admit to my self that I have a dark vengeful side and when provoked it really comes out. One of those you start it I am going to finish it mentality and in the processes I am going to stomp you into the ground...

My head has been there all weekend especially when I have been talking to my family about the situation. I have been thinking about all the ways I could screw the wife over. It would be very easy to go there. I have to keep reminding my self this is my wife whom I love and is not my enemy.

If I were to expose this affair it would be to HR and not employees. I think it would be a little out of character for me at this point. I can admit the only reason that I would probably do it is to cause drama and embarrassment for my wife. My vengeful side would probably get some satisfaction out of this. Who’s to say if she and OM would get fired or transferred? Every case is different.

I am going to explorer this option and have as a card in the deck. But I need to make sure my butts covered and that I understand the full impact of this coarse of action. My vengeful demons may decide to come out. We will see.

Affaircare and Pete you are a 100% right. I want my wife to end this affaire and return to our marriage on her own. And this is the only way I want it to happen. I have been a gentleman through this and I realize your post was a just an idea.

I do need to watch my own back. I plan on finding a new attorney this week and begin to work out a strategy here.

I had a chance to read through our list of possessions tonight and the copy of the final divorce degree.

To say the least I am very unimpressed with the divorce decree. It is only two pages in length and very generic. I hope my wife didn’t spend much money on this. Seeing how this is a divorce I would of suspected it would be much more to the point and very very detailed so that there is very little left for interpretation. In terms of our money and finances it leaves a lot to be interpreted and gives no mention to our joint investment account with our nest egg in it so to speak. It does mention that neither of us is to use our joint accounts for anything until after the sale of our home and divorce is complete.

In terms of possessions it is interesting what you have when it is all down in a multi page list. Most of it is of little value. Its all towels and forks and knives. The bigger ticket items such as the furniture. When it is all listed it doesn’t seem like we have that much furniture. Out of all our furniture the only thing the wife wants is a table a desk the love seat a mattress and some of our bed room furniture. She wants most of the kitchen types of items and china.

I found it interesting that she wants the wedding picture albums and some other things like this.

In terms of automobile loans we are both to take over the car loans for the vehicle we drive. She wants our big flat screen TV and the snow blower of all things. But is basically giving me all my guy stuff such as the mower tools my classic jeep chain saw you catch my drift.

In terms of the dollar and cents of it all I am probably making out ahead of her. The one deal breaker is she spells that she wants custody of our Great Dane. I realize she is just a dog but we both love her equally and this is a bit of a deal breaker she is our kid. I know it sounds silly to most. 

The grounds for the divorce is irreconcilable differences. Big suprise

I am pretty unimpressed with this decree document and would have expected something better written and more thorough. Seems very amateur. It’s only our whole life here.
Time to get my ducks in a row

Thanks everyone for your feed back it helps

JAR


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## tamara24

Jar,

I find it funny you are getting a divorce under unreconciable differences. Yes, you disagree she can be involved with another man while married to you. I believe that is called infedelity. It can also make her look bad in the divorce.

The feelings you are having, I think or the feelings of any of us betrayed by a loved one. Sometimes even over a complete stranger. Vengence is not necessarily right but it sometimes feels oh so good!. Try to keep a level head. Go down the list and find the things you disagree on. First, just out of curiosity, I find it weird she would ask for a snowblower. Most apt.s do that for you and even rental homes. What in the samhill does she care about a snow blower? As far as the dog goes, I understand that she is like a kid for you. Then don't let her keep the dog? Plus if you have plans to move back in the home at least until it sells, the dog will be comfortable staying in the home than having to adjust to new home,smells and sounds. Not saying you can't let your wife visit or keep the dog. We have discussed a lot about consequences,here, wouldn't her decision to move out of the home and her infedelity forfiet her demands on saying she is taking the dog?just a thougght.
Let her have the photo albums. If she goes through with the divorce,those items can be items that keep you from moving on.
I think if you were going to report the affair to HR,you should have done it awhile ago. You can create a disturbance in their relationship merely by moving in. I think it is very honorable of you to give her time to mull all this over, but I think it is crunch time. You need to focus on YOUR needs. They are not being met and only you can make yourself truly happy. This has been a horrible year for youand you have thought quite a bit about her feelings, now think about you.
Do you think the wife has not clearly thought this divorce out? Maybe she just assumes,you will divide the nest egg and such. Maybe she wants it to seem simple so it looks simple to you? She alreadyassumed you were going to have a rough time. Maybe you could take the list and talk face to face? I think the vengeance thing is less when you have to look that person in the eye.
Remember this really isn't about things, it is about feelings and freedom. I don't think she has come to grips with her actions in the marraige. 
Keep in mind, you know your wife more than any of us. We can tell you what we would do, but what if we heard your wife's side of this? What would she have to say? Does she think since you had aperiod of silence that you don't care?
Take care
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> I find it funny you are getting a divorce under unreconciable differences. Yes, you disagree she can be involved with another man while married to you. I believe that is called infedelity. It can also make her look bad in the divorce.


I am not sure about JAR's home state (I didn't look up the law there), but there are only 14 states in the U.S. where adultery has any bearing in divorce court. The rest will only use the idea of 'irreconcilable differences' - so, regardless that it might seem more just to us that the infidelity be a part of the decree, by far the majority of the states in the U.S. hold that cheating is irrelevant.


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## jar

In the state that I live in there actually laws against adultery….I guess there really old laws that a group of people are trying to get changed.

I guess that if you are found guilty

You can receive 1 year of imprisonment or some number of lashings

More recently I guess there is a fine of over 1000 dollars.

From what I understand it has been years and years since anyone was actually charged with this.

I read a few cases where it has been proven to the court with out a doubt that adultery was committed. Irreconcilable differences were still given as a reason on the decree.

Pete Google adultery in my state kind of funny CNN article on it.

Something didn’t feel write when I was home and it has been on my mind. Wonder if her and other man are moving in or if he has been spending time in our house. 

At this point I find her request for a number of possessions rather unusual. I have to assume she has thought this through. I am not sure she fully comprehends how this will affect her life and mine.

JAR


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## jar

I just wanted to wish everyone a happy thanksgiving.

I hope that everyone enjoys the day with there family.

On a side note another affair in my extended family has come to the light of day. That makes four of us cousins that are going through it. It is so crazy.

Happy thanksgiving

JAR


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## jar

I don’t have much to report. I had a nice quite thanksgiving with my family this year.

It was a really nice day.

I did put some feelers out wishing my in laws and wife a happy thanksgiving. I got a nice note from wife’s sister wishing me a happy thanksgiving. I haven’t heard from my mother and father in law for a real long time. 

As usual nothing from wife. Other than a text a few minutes ago saying I have important mail to pick up like my care registration. 

Wife’s face book comment today is she got back to our house this afternoon and that she cleaned the house and plans to decorate to for Christmas tomorrow.

I wonder if the OM is helping her. I wonder if she is having a tough time. I just wonder…..

I am going to put myself out there in a big way on Wednesday and stir the pot up before the holidays. I plan to start moving home on Wednesday. I am ready for this. I am done living in the middle of know where. I love my home.Wife is the one that isn’t happy there. She can go if this is what she chooses. I am ready for this. I have full support of my family and friends on this one to. They get it.

I haven’t told wife Wednesday is the day. Our last meeting I gave her the option to think all this over. I think I will let her know the plan Monday or Tuesday.

As much as I have enjoyed spending the past few days with family. I have some depression creeping in. I feel like so much is missing. I feel like half of my family has disappeared. I think that the holidays are going to be tougher than I thought.

JAR


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## turnera

Stop harping on her. Focus on you.


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## Affaircare

JAR~

Two quick things. #1--The Holidays after infidelity can be really tough because a) you're not sure if your marriage is going to survive, and b) all the traditions you used to do will be different somehow. If you feel some consistent sad feelings I'd like you to bear in mind it may not be "clinical depression" but what we call situational depression. The situation that you find yourself in, is a sad one. Thus, I'd recommend that before you consider a medication you may want to look into herbs as a natural alternative. I personally took St. John's Wort for a while, and nope it doesn't make your mood better--but yep, it gives you that moment for your mind to think in a new way and let you think your way out of a depressive cycle of thinking. 

#2--I like your idea of setting a date and moving home. I see that you are putting forth the effort to move forward and express where YOU want to be, and I do think it's reasonable to not let it stretch on and on while she is "thinking about it." Wednesday, December 1st--that's a nice date.


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## sophiasfriend

turnera said:


> Stop harping on her. Focus on you.


:iagree::smthumbup:


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## tamara24

Jar,

For what it is worth, I think it is a great idea. Wife most likely isn't going to find a place that will take a dog over the holidays and I doubt she is going to want to move out during this time. She most likely not be overjoyed with you making this decision in which she has no control. But then again, you will have no control if she goes out with OM while you are there. I think this will give you an oppurtunity to do allow her to see the changes you are making as permenant changes and not just changes while you are there for two hours. You will be mixing things up a bit as OM has had free reign on seeing your wife. Not so easy with the hubby in the house. If it goes the other way and she moves out, then let her see things are not as easy as she as black and white as she thinks.
Don't be upset about the inlaws. They are stuck in a hard situation. You don't know all that wife has told them and they are still HER parents. There is a sense of loyalty there regardless of their feelings towards you. 
Yes, unfortunatley, the holidays are going to be different. Even if wifey and you decided to stay together they would be different cause you have decided to change. This year will be harder because of the uncertainty of things,but this time next year,you could be in a totally different place and happier than ever. Don't dwell on the wife. It will eat you up inside. Have fun with your family. Have a small gift for wife, but don't over do it . A book, or journal. 
Good luck and Happy Holidays!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Thank you for sharing your opinion, NoLongerSad. I'm also glad that you shared your doctorate degree with us, your training, and your long history here on the site interacting with this particular individual and so many others. 

Thankfully I know JAR and JAR knows us and our website and what we do and do not do. Please note that I never prescribed for him nor said that he did or did not have either "Clinical" or "Situational" depression. The fact is that here in the USA we expect to feel "happy" every minute of every day, and we expect others to "make us happy" and if we're not, we rush to take PILLS for it! Thus I suggested to him the option that it may be sorrow due to being in a sad situation--which is appropriate--and shared with him something that worked for me. It is an alternative that he may want to look into, and that's his decision. I know I, for one, do not wish to medicate myself more than is necessary, and I'm sure that a Naturopathic Physician in his area could give him some direction if that's a route he chose to investigate! 

We choose to NOT jump on the "medicate any hint of sadness" bandwagon and label someone with a mental disorder! There can be and may be more natural options.


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## Tanelornpete

> Don't take any chances--please consult with a licensed professional such as a psychologist or M.D. for any diagnosis and/or treatment that you might need.


While this is sound advice, I'd also add that the diagnosis necessary for any clinical depression is almost never, ever, done by any 'licensed' professional - this is a series of blood chemical tests that must be preformed over a long period of time to determine if the depression requires medication or not. 

If the depression is not clinical (i.e., a physical malady), then drugs are a _horrible_ and very common mistake. This is because the natural consequence of applying drugs to a situation in which the chemical imbalance is NOT due to a physical problem with the glands producing the necessary hormones ---- actually creates the imbalance it is intended to 'fix'! The body quits producing the necessary chemicals and relies on the drugs to create them. This creates a further need for more drugs, as the dependence grows. 

This is very profitable for pharmaceutical companies! The logical fallacy (appeal to authority) used above is the direct result of widespread 'education' by pharmaceutical companies (ever seen how may drug commercials are on TV?) 

People tend to feel depressed during stressful situations - and an affair is an extremely stressful situation. It is the thought processes going on that result in the feelings of sadness, etc. This passes as wounds heal and personal growth commences. But to fall into the trap of drug-use in order to avoid the pain, instead of dealing with what is actually causing the pain and working your way through it has a few negative consequences:

For example, the addiction to the drugs themselves brings about an ever increasing set of their own troubles (inability to work, loss of thinking ability, etc.) as well as the dependence itself.

It results in a very difficult struggle to recover from the addiction - something many people never manage to do. It hinders personal growth by removing any incentive to seek solutions. It hinders overcoming troubles by simply removing the initiative to work through them. 

Drugging someone because a situation makes them sad is about as useless as drugging someone because they won't pay attention to a boring speaker, diagnosing them as 'ADHD' 

If you can find a good M.D. who is willing to do the testing necessary, and have insurance that is able to cover the expenses of the extensive lab-work, and you have been sensing depression for an extended time,then it would be a good idea to be tested to see if you do indeed suffer from the _extremely rare_ problem of clinical depression. Most doctors (and nearly ALL psychologists) are more likely to declare you have the physical malady simply from you describing a few symptoms than they are to order tests. 

Can you imagine what would happen with other maladies if this were the case? "Doctor, I have bad headaches, and nausea..." "Oh dear, you have brain cancer! We must begin a course of chemotherapy for you immediately!" 

Notice the site used to dismiss the health benefits of St John/s Wort is a government site, which is a very biased type of reference: among the biggest contributors to political campaigns are pharmaceutical companies - it is to their best interest to manipulate (lobby) to reduce competition. And its in their best interest to use law (via licensing) to eliminate threats to profit. 

St. John's Wort has been used for centuries for the purpose given above. In fact, the drugs that are used in current popular anti-depressants are similar (although much more potent) to the compounds found in the herb.

For myself, I do not advocate the use of any drug or herb to escape and depression (Except that caused by actual physical problems). But in this instance, I would argue that JAR knows where he stands, and can determine if he should visit a competent doctor or healer, etc. 

But I don't accept logical fallacies (induction, false appeals, popular arguments, etc.) I prefer actual, clear thought and honesty. And drug use is a very poor (and immoral) means of escape. Overcoming problems is by far more important.

Yes, people feel sad during the holiday season. And yes, people self-medicate - its been going on for centuries - heavy drinking during the festival season... And, unscrupulous people will always take advantage of it: you need to buy OUR liquor this Christmas! Or - you need to take OUR anti-depressant this Christmas!!!! Big money. Big money. 

And the ironic fact is that I am a free-market anarchist - I BELIEVE in making money. I just don't believe in defrauding people to get it.


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## josh1081

I believe the saying nowadays is "you just got served."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks for the advice on the depression.

I check in often with my doctor and my consoler about this. What depression I do have is situational. I have never had problems with it in my life until last year when the affair came out.

When I found out about the affair it completely knocked me to the ground. I was having anxiety and panic problems daily. It hit me hard and I was in a state of shock like I never had experienced. Couldn’t eat or sleep for weeks. My mind would just run all day long with images of the affair. Which would cause me to get very anxious and depressed. I felt paralyzed

After consulting with my doctor and therapist I did decided to start tacking something to keep my anxiety and panic in check. It also does help some with depression. My doctor and therapist both agreed that my problems were very much caused by the situation and the severe stress I was going through.

Afaircare and Pete I was very worried about all the points you both bring up. I was at the end of my rope when I decided to go on medication and I felt that it was a direction I need to head to get myself back on track.

Sometime some depression starts creeping back in but I have learned a few tricks to get my self refocused on more positive things and the next thing you know I am feeling better and back on track.

I have been pretty quite the last several days. I have been sick as a dog with a cold and feeling terrible.

So my plan is I am moving back home on Wednesday. I am going to give wife a curtsey call tomorrow night as to my plans. I am expecting to be entering a hostile war zone. I am ready for it and I am ready to return home to my life. I am not expecting much from the wife and I fully expect her to move out. What I am hoping is that she will be able to relax and hang out through the holidays at the house.

I am really looking forward to getting home this week. 

JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
It is nice to hear that you are in a calmer more peaceful place.
Good Luck with the move home, but don't expect her to do anything positive.
If she decides to move out so be it.........
This might be hard for you Jar, watching her go out to be with the OM at night. 
Are you sure this won't take you backwards? I'm a little worried about this......
jessi


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## jar

I am very calm about this move. It seems like the right thing to do for me. I miss my home. 

I plan to pay rent at my place for another month or two so I have back up plan.

I also have a friend that just bought a new house that has an extra room should I need to get away as well.

IF she goes out with the OM. I imagine that this will be tough to see but I will deal with it when the time comes.

If I feel like I am regressing I can always leave again.

JAR


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## notreadytoquit

Jar, I was in the same house as my ex H when he was going out with the OW. He never said so but I knew where he was. You will survive. Just take care about YOURSELF.You are the most important person right now, to yourself if you know what I mean.


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## land2634

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see how this can do any harm. I think that if you manage to show her the positive side of you, it could actually help a lot. She may be very hesitant to accept any of it, and she may not accept it at all, but there's no sense in being hostile, right? Might as well make the most of it, and if she sees you taking that attitude, from experience in my own situation, it's going to make it much harder for her (and even make her feel bad) to continue treating you so poorly. Will it change anything? Who knows, but hey, what else do you have to lose at this point? You're going about this the right way. Keep up the good work.


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## jar

So I was on facebook today and clicked on the OM page.

It locked down pretty good but it did say his current location. Which is a few hundred miles from where we live.

I think OM might have moved. I don’t have any way to confirm this.

I hope it is true this could be really good sign.

JAR


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## notreadytoquit

check out the The Official WhitePages - Find People for Free in case he has a home landline number. You can just put his name and the state if you are not sure of the town/suburb


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## jar

It’s not very clear 

On white pages nothing is listed in our area but some of the pay sites do have a listing. 

There is a listing in the area that I think he moved to but again I can’t seem to access any information because it is a pay sight.


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## Eli-Zor

Try

peekyou.com
peoplesmart.com

If these do not help you may have to pay one of the sites.


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## jar

I just left a message for my wife. She never picks up the phone when I call any more letting her know my plans for this week.


We will see if I hear back from her. 


Well 2 min have gone by…


I just heard back from hear and she flipped out on me.


Saying that I can’t just move back in. She was supper nasty. She even mentioned her family is coming this weekend. She wanted to know if I talked to a lawyer. She told me it was my choice to move out and that I can’t just move back in. I reminded her that it was my home as well. She told me she would even have a temporary hearing about the house ownership. What ever that means. She told me this isn’t about Jar and that I am not going to just get my way. I bet she calls her lawyer on me. I did tell her I didn’t want to involve lawyers.


I just calmly told her that I was coming home. I told her to relax. I would do my thing and she could do her thing.


I reminded her that I still pay half the mortgage and she reminded me she pays half the boat. She goes how about I stop paying half the boat since I don’t use it. I told her that worked for me as long as I could stop paying for half the mortgage since I don’t live there.


A lot of crazy talk and ramblings but I expected it. She wasn’t listening to me what so ever. Just reacting. I was calm she was hysterical. I imagine the mortgage comment was a love buster. But it was the truth.


JAR


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## jar

Well I am up to two texts an email and a voice mail now all stating the same thing.

That wife would rather meet at the local pizza joint instead of the house at 7pm 

Apparently she is uncomfortable meeting at the house.

I am going to take a little while to regain my composure and give her a call.

I don’t think I am willing to meet anywhere but the house.

JAR


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## Powerbane

Either she has something to hide at the house or something else is afoot.

Take care JAR.


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## notreadytoquit

Powerbane said:


> Either she has something to hide at the house or something else is afoot.
> 
> Take care JAR.


I would say she has something to hide. Any chance that the OM has moved in with her. When were you at the house last?

If I were you I would just move in and she can throw a tantrum all she wants.


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## Affaircare

If your name and her name are on the mortgage and the deed, then she can not keep you from the property. If your name is not on the mortgage or not on the deed she may try some legal wrangling, but that would be a while away until a judge can make a decision. 

I personally say to stop calling and texting and just write a simple email: "On Wednesday, December 1, 2010, at 6:00pm I will be moving back into our joint property, and I will be moving my possessions into the XXX bedroom, and the left side of the garage. This will save on bills and expenses, and I will be present to protect my interests that are on the joint property. Sincerely ~JAR" 

Then turn all phones off and just proceed with that plan. Maybe even notify the local constabulary that you are doing it so they can escort you and so there won't be calls to the police as an attempt to say you are being violent or anything. Know what I mean?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Totally agree with AC. A proactive call to the authorities, just saying what you are doing, may prevent you a big headache tomorrow. There is no restraining order or anything to prevent you from being on property, and living in a home, you own. Do EVERYTHING you can to minimize the drama.


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## jar

Just got home from work and I was checking out my normal websites and the wife’s wrote it is funny how quickly things can fall part on face book. 

What is with the dramatics?

In terms of something being off at home. Yeah I think there is something off at home. I sensed it last time I was home. I am unsure what it is.

In terms of the other man. I think he might have moved away. I posted about this earlier.

Everything in our life is joint including the house. 

I think I might try and send an email to diffuse the situation some. Affaircare I trust your judgment but I don’t think your example note is quite write this time.

Well I will keep every one posted as the events unfold.

It is interesting how my wife views this as me ruining all her plans and views me as a bad guy. 

Jar


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## turnera

I would avoid the email. Instead, contact the police and let them know NOW what you will be doing. The first person to contact the authorities gets better rights.


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## tamara24

Good Luck today Jar, it will get nasty because she has been able to call all the shots and now she is losing control. Just stay calm,calm,calm!
Don't let her know you have a back up either. That is an incentive for her to make your life miserable. Just to get you to use that back up. I would notify the authorities just incase things get rough. Hopefully things will not get that bad.
I hope your cold is getting better,that really bites that you aren't at the top of your game when you have to deal with this,but you have made a commitment, so do it even if your can is dragging!hehe. 
Hoping all goes well tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks everyone for the support. I am doing ok today and this is the reaction that I expected from my wife. 

I thought I would share the email I sent wife last night…..

I realize my news is surprising and is something that you were not planning on.

Please take a minute to take a deep breath and relax. I imagine your mind must be running all over the place. Please don’t jump to any conclusions.

I will be home around 7 tomorrow night. I realize that you may feel uncomfortable about this. But what do you have to be scared about it is me. I don’t think we need to meet a restaurant to talk. I may be a lot of things but you know in your heart I am safe supportive person to be around. 

I am coming home because I miss my home, my dog, and my life. I miss being around the things and people that are comforting after a long day. Living a life away from everything that is important to you in life is very difficult. 

I am not coming home to cause dramatics or some crazy competition. I pan to treat you with mutual respect and a roommate. I would imagine we are both going to need or own space. I have no expectations of you resuming a role like you had in the past. 

I know that you have the house arranged and organized just the way you like it. In fact the house looks beautiful and I love what you have done. I know in the past I haven’t been very respectful about keeping things very organized and picked up. I relied on you to do it. I also understand that this is something that drives you crazy. I will tread lightly and keep the disruptions to the minimum. I certainly plan to my part around the house as well.

I am not asking you to leave our home or move out. In fact I am hoping that we can reach some common ground here, relax, and enjoy the holidays in our home as friends and roommates 

No pressure. 

Love
JAR
This is her response at 5am today

JAR
Your news is beyond surprising because you are not listening to my side of it at all. You are simply doing whatever you wish, I have worked very hard these last 6 months at making sure when coming up with a plan that you are getting your fair share, yet you can't seem to compromise back. All that is done is what you think is best for you. 
I have sat here and cried all night to the point that my eyes are swollen almost shut this morning. And no I do not know what your motives are and I do not know you at all anymore. If I say I am uncomfortable with talking at the house with you that is exactly what I mean. I AM UNCOMFORTABLE WITH TALKING TO YOU AT THE HOUSE. 
there needs to be some ground rules and things gone over before you can just march back in here after leaving 6 months ago and I would think that you would know this. 
I would like to meet somewhere. 
Wife

It would seem I have gotten her pretty wound up with this news.

Today is therapy day for her so I imagine she will have a lot to talk about.


Also 1 year ago today is when I discovered the affair. I wonder if she will ever come out of the fog I think it might be permanent.

JAR


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## turnera

So what are you doing to show her that you DO listen to her?


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## jar

I have been thinking about that this morning

To be honest I am not sure what I can do to make her feel like I am listening.


I can listen take it in repeat what I heard back to her. That’s the only thing that comes to mind at the moment.


Doesn’t mean that I have to be agreeable.


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## michzz

So what exactly is the point of moving back home--besides making her uncomfortable?

Is it only coincidental that it is year out from D Day?


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## turnera

I was thinking more along the lines of listening to her when she tells you what's wrong with the relationship and showing her you're listening by making the changes you know you need to make, not for her, but for yourself. She's a great resource for you to learn how to be a better man and husband. Even if it ends up not being with her.


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## jar

Turnera

Good point. I am so use to just guessing what the issues are because she hasn’t talked about these sorts of things in several months.


On another note the wife just changed her relationship status to separated on facebook.

I guess this is her retaliation against me.

JAR


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## land2634

I wouldn't worry too much about the Facebook status. She quite obviously did that to get to you. Just remember what your goal is here. This is going to be a huge opportunity to show her that not only can you take care of yourself, that you are able to take care of her if she will let you.

That laundry that used to pile up? Be the first to do it. Things like that. Instead of fighting with her, be the calm one. You've done great to this point, just keep it up and show her the man you are now.


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## Affaircare

@michzz--The point of JAR moving back to his home is that for the past year she has been saying over and over that she doesn't like the home, has never liked the home, doesn't want to be there, doesn't want to live there in the future, wants to sell it, etc. whereas JAR likes the home, has always liked the property, does want to be there now and in the future he may want to attempt to stay there...especially if the property doesn't sell. 

Also, when JAR moved out when he discovered his wife's infidelity, he moved into a situation of renting a fully furnished room--so it's not as if he moved to a vacant apartment and took half of the possessions/furniture. He still pays half the mortgage and all of their marital items are in the house, AND they have more than one bedroom. Thus, it seemed reasonable to move back to protect his own interests, especially when she keeps insisting on Divorce and moving in that direction. 

The fact of the matter is that if they do divorce, she will not be in charge of "who gets what" nor will she be able to keep their joint possessions under her control and give them to him after some agreement is reached. So since he wants to protect his interests in the property--PLUS he wants to live there now, likes it there now, and possibly see a future there even after a divorce, JAR decided it was best for him to move back into the house. 

Will it upset his wife? Probably. Will it end the affair? Probably not. But that's not the point.


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## michzz

michzz said:


> So what exactly is the point of moving back home--besides making her uncomfortable?
> 
> Is it only coincidental that it is year out from D Day?





Affaircare said:


> @michzz--The point of JAR moving back to his home is that for the past year she has been saying over and over that she doesn't like the home, has never liked the home, doesn't want to be there, doesn't want to live there in the future, wants to sell it, etc. whereas JAR likes the home, has always liked the property, does want to be there now and in the future he may want to attempt to stay there...especially if the property doesn't sell.
> 
> Also, when JAR moved out when he discovered his wife's infidelity, he moved into a situation of renting a fully furnished room--so it's not as if he moved to a vacant apartment and took half of the possessions/furniture. He still pays half the mortgage and all of their marital items are in the house, AND they have more than one bedroom. Thus, it seemed reasonable to move back to protect his own interests, especially when she keeps insisting on Divorce and moving in that direction.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that if they do divorce, she will not be in charge of "who gets what" nor will she be able to keep their joint possessions under her control and give them to him after some agreement is reached. So since he wants to protect his interests in the property--PLUS he wants to live there now, likes it there now, and possibly see a future there even after a divorce, JAR decided it was best for him to move back into the house.
> 
> Will it upset his wife? Probably. Will it end the affair? Probably not. But that's not the point.


Oh I get the legit reasons for at some point moving home to protect assets. However, I question the timing only. to me, it was designed to disrupt her life out of spite, not for reconciliation or asset protection.

If it were not right at the D Day timeframe I would not think this. 

And hey, if that is what Jar wants to do so be it. He's been through a lot. Just seems like it is adding drama to the situation when it was not needed.


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## turnera

Actually, I think he's doing it now because we've been harping on him lately to do it.


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## tilly

turnera said:


> Actually, I think he's doing it now because we've been harping on him lately to do it.


lol that can happen on here.


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## tamara24

Jar,

Again, she is losing control as AC stated,the point of you moving there is to protect your intrest and not have her decide or be in charge of saying who gets what. After reading her email to you, it reminds me of selfish demands and hysterical ranting. You are not doing what SHE wants so she sees this as she has only been thinking of you through this process. Which we know has not been entirely true. Her facebook status changed so you know hey, I am on to you,if you think moving in here is going to change my mind,your nuts!
It will be a long night tonight. Also, make sure to keep your word. Wash your dishes, do the laundry. If you were the mess maker before, be the cleaner upper now. Make sure over the next few days, even if she is been a total snot, you compliment how she has organized the house again. Not kiss ***.but hey, I noticed you reorganized this and wow what a difference it makes!
She also stated she doesn't know you at all, good time for her to learn about the new you. No matter what you do at this point,she is going to see it as a way to win her back. Show her you are indepent more confident man,and you choose to live life with her, but you can survive without her.
Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jar

It has been a very emotional last couple of hours. I am sitting home in our guest bedroom right now. With my dog laying next to me.

I went to my therapist today and she doesn’t feel that me moving home and living with my wife is a good idea. She brought up some interesting points about it and that I am acting out of emotion.

Wife is steaming pissed at me still. She did mange to crack a joke or two during our conversations.

Basically she unloaded on me she talked to her attorney and was told legally there is nothing that she can do about me being here. 

Apparently I have been sent divorce papers by certified mail and they are waiting for me in my PO Box.

So the wife was rather emotional with me and dumped on me with exactly what she had stated in her email. She is mad at me because I didn’t give her anytime to deal with this. She laid it down that she isn’t telling me where she is going etc and I am not to ask. She told me that she will be gone the week after x mas and the week before xmas and that the dog would be in kennel. I asked if she was going to see OM and she told me that it was none of my business. I think my suspensions are true other man has moved away but the affair is not over.
She mentioned that she liked being on her own. She told me I am not to go in our bedroom and she moved all my things to the spare room.
She told me that the agreement that she had written up is basically void at this point. When she goes she is tacking xyz now and there is nothing I can do to stop her. On the other hand she wants have all this sorted out by march.

She is told me she is done worrying about me and that is all she has been doing these past 6 months and that she is only looking out for number one now. She wanted to know if I had layered up yet. I told her that at this point that is none of her business.

She told me that the apartment she wants to rent won’t be ready until March and that is when she would be moving out.

She is really mad I sent her family a couple of books. She felt that I have know write and that I don’t know the relationship that she has with her family at this point.

I tried to look my best to knight. I got a little terry eyed towards the end of our discussion. Wife was very organized she took notes and had a hit list of items to discus. I didn’t loose my cool at all.
It is tough when you wife is yelling at you that I don’t love you and that I don’t want any part of the marriage and that she doesn’t want to be around me.
She discussed the ground rules for her and boundaries and she told me how it would and wouldn’t be. I asked her to treat me with respect and curtsey at this point.
Wife just kept reiterating we are divorcing and that this is going to happen.

Wife is looking beautiful tonight. She is wearing a really pretty dress. I told her I liked it.

She did invite to watch tv with her and she seems to be acting civil and talking to me some. She just came up and put her pjs on and asked if I am ok. (The ones I got her last valentines day)

I really am questioning what I am doing. Wife may be to far gone and I am not sure if I have it in me. 
There are some good things in my advantage.

More to come

JAR


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## michzz

jar said:


> I went to my therapist today and she doesn’t feel that me moving home and living with my wife is a good idea. She brought up some interesting points about it and that I am acting out of emotion.


I would be curious to read what your therapist told you. Care to share? I have a guess, but I'm interested in what you were told.



jar said:


> I really am questioning what I am doing. Wife may be to far gone and I am not sure if I have it in me.
> There are some good things in my advantage.
> 
> More to come
> 
> JAR


Your wife is very much gone from being interested in you as a wife. You scared her by coming home. That does not make you desirable to her, IMHO.


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## OhGeesh

The writing has been on the wall for a long time! At this point I think you can see it clearer than ever. You gave it a shot and while others may say this isn't over til it's over......look at her? This is your wife legally, but definitely not in reality!! 

You can continue to try Jar the pain will be intense!! Your conscience will be crystal clear if you do continue to try though, so don't let me discourage you we are different people.

Do your best to make it, don't do anything rash, still focus on you and prepare for you future!! If this does end in divorce there is someone else out there Jar!! 

I guarantee it:smthumbup:


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## Affaircare

JAR~

I would like to clarify something. Did you move home thinking, "Well if I move home, she'll love me, the affair will end, and we won't get a divorce"? Or did you move home thinking "I actually like this house and she doesn't...and all of my stuff is here"? I realize I may have been mistaken, but I thought you were moving back with the understanding that your wife had been actively involved in an affair for about a year, had no intention of quitting, and from every indicator she was clear and heading toward a divorce. 

In other words, are you moving in to "live with your wife" -or- are you moving in to maybe give her the freedom to live where she will be happier and also let you live where you like it?



> Apparently I have been sent divorce papers by certified mail and they are waiting for me in my PO Box.


 If you sign for the certified mail, the receipt will be returned to her and it will be proof of service. Now on the one hand, if you don't sign it, the whole divorce packet will be returned to her as undeliverable/unsigned and she would have to get the sheriff to serve you. This may possibly delay things but it would be kind of silly to make her get a sheriff if you live in the same home--right? So you sign for the certified mail, you're served, and you would have your state's deadline (like usually 30 days) to file a Response in court. 



> She told me that the agreement that she had written up is basically void at this point. When she goes she is tacking xyz now and there is nothing I can do to stop her. On the other hand she wants have all this sorted out by march.


 The typical divorce in the USA takes about a year to be finalized, so having all this "sorted out by March" is unrealistic. What she means is "agree to what I want by March" and again she's in a for a rude awakening that in a divorce she does not get to be in control of what you ask for, whether you cooperate, what stuff you get, etc. 

I'm not suggesting you do so, so don't get me wrong, but when she filed divorce papers, she put in there basically "Here's how I would like it all to be divided" -- sort of her version of what she'd like to see. If you were an angry, spiteful, malicious, nasty kind of guy you absolutely COULD respond to the courts with you getting everything and her getting nothing (unrealistic) or with the exact opposite of everything she wants just to be contentious. That would definitely delay things! Or as the divorce goes along you could fight her on every little detail--after all 827Aug here on TAM has been divorcing for a couple years and her husband keeps stalling and not turning in depositions and whatnot. 

So even if she does pursue divorce, it will most likely not be over soon. You can ask for the moon in the filing...or she can...and that has little or nothing to do with what the judge would then order. And her threat: "When she goes she is tacking xyz now and there is nothing I can do to stop her" is nothing short of a childish attempt to force you to leave and do things her way. So don't worry about it too much. The only way I can see that it would be "all sorted out by March" would be if you decide you have had enough and you're ready to divorce, and you two actually agree and basically co-file. In that case, you two agree, you have an attorney write it up, both of you have your own attorney just look it over, you file and the judge signs it. DONE once your state's waiting period is up (usually 90 days).

JAR, if you were hoping you'd move home and live with your wife, chances are very, VERY, *VERY* slim she'd change her mind and come around, but if that wasn't the point...if you were moving in because you like your house and want to protect your interests and property and you want to be with your dog, I would suggest that you consider signing for the divorce papers and thinking about what YOU want and how YOU will respond to the courts. You can ask for what you want, even if it's not "Fair"--but this is just my suggestion: you're a pretty decent kind of guy and I suspect you may want to just be as fair and reasonable as you can be. Look it all over and put together a response that accurately reflects what you want to protect your interests. It may not be entirely fair to her because she is breaking the contract of the marriage, but I also think you should be reasonably able to support why you are asking for what you're proposing (for example, no point in asking her to pay you alimony as no law in the state would support that). Have reasons that are common sense and somewhat respectful, but bear in mind that she's not going to be thinking of you. 

Okay? It's important you understand that I am NOT supporting divorce or suggesting you should divorce. I think a lot of her issues are her own and some of them come from her spinning things unrealistically because she's not around you. But if there are papers, it's probably not wise to ignore them...they don't go away. Find a pro-marriage lawyer, tell him/her what you'd like to do and direct him/her to do that. Stall if that's what you'd like, and who knows what the future will bring? Right?


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## jar

I am Ok. My emotions are a little all over the place. Today was a lot to process.

I am here at home because this is where I want to be. There is no question of that.

Today went how I expected it to go. I don’t think I am under any elusions or have any false hopes here.

I know what everyone is saying is true. I know what she is saying is true. I still don’t want this to happen though.

JAR


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## jessi

Jar, 
Look you did what you wanted to do, you know this will be hard on you and your wife, but you both know you have to make the best of things.......
She has layed it out on the line for her boundaries, she is mad, so what. 
Just be pleasant when you do spend time together, look good and just live your life the best way you can.
She will be doing what she wants, when she wants, she is going to move out in March. That's okay Jar........let her just live the independant life she wants..................
I think she has shown you that she is moving on and that is what you should do as well............
Just be strong and accept her decisions........
No one knows how life directs us, just have to live it one day at time and enjoy that day the best we can..........
I'm a firm believer that life happens the way it's suppose to and all that we live through to get there is for a reason, even if we don't understand the reasons ourselves. 
That faith is within all of us.............just enjoy the little things in life and each day with what comes with it.............


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## jar

I just got the divorce petition. I have an appearance that has to be returned in 15 days and if I want to file a response to the petition or have a temporary hearing I have 30 days to do so.

This sucks….

I have gotten my self into quite a position with returning home.

I am thinking I should just retreat back to the woods and suck it up with my housing situation.

JAR


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## jessi

jar, 
so sorry you are having a crappy day..
look you have tried your best to save this marriage but I think it's time to just cut your losses and move on. 
your wife has decided that this is best for her, right or wrong, regret or no regret, only time will tell. 
don't worry about staying there with her, it's still your house....
you respond when you feel ready.......
you are much better off now, you have grown so much in the last little while, a different person......all for the good.......
remember when one door closes another window is opened, check the doors and windows out Jar, see what else life has to offer you....
stay calm and in your peaceful place........


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## Affaircare

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Getting the divorce papers does suck, and you won't be able to ignore them or pretend they'll go away--you will have to do something or else what's written on there will be decreed. 

However, here's my observation. You faced yourself and how you contributed. You've made considerable progress in addressing your own issues and changing. You've been respectful and honest. You haven't threatened her or tried to make her do anything she didn't want to do of her own free will. Yes--you want the marriage to work out and No--you don't want to divorce. You've been consistent in both action and word not pursuing divorce, and yet being true to yourself. And even though you've been a lighthouse showing her there is a way back and a way to fix it...she has chosen to stay in the storm and not return to 'safe harbor.' If I were to virtually GUESS, I'd say it's because she has no interest in facing herself or admitting she contributed to the demise of the marriage...and then doing the work to change. It hurts her more to look at herself then it does to lose her marriage. 

So it is, indeed, SAD. But it's also the truth, and I don't think running away to the woods will make this any better. Running away *rarely* makes anything better--whereas facing it and getting through it and dealing with it DOES. So rather than running away, I suggest you take a few days maybe in your room/the guest room and mourn the loss of your marriage. 

I'll be blunt with you--the thing I really grieved during my divorce was not necessarily the loss of the man my exH became, but rather the loss of the ILLUSION I had. I had this illusion in my head that I had a happy marriage, a happy family, a successful business and "the good life" but all that was not real. It was an illusion that I told myself so I didn't have to face the truth, which was that my marriage was dysfunctional and abusive, my children were afraid, and business was building but still small. I held to that illusion so hard because I didn't want to see what was clear, and once I couldn't avoid it any longer, well... I mourned! I wanted that illusion! But my exH wasn't really kind, loving and thoughtful--he was mean, abusive and selfish. 

So my guess is that you're in mourning. It's looking more and more like she is not going to come back, and even though you have grown and know you don't love the woman she's become who'd behave like this and have these kind of morals--the part that grieves you so deeply is losing the illusion of "the wife who is beautiful inside and out who adoring chooses you". Does that make sense?

So running away is probably not the wiser choice, but dealing with the appearance with the 15 days, responding to the divorce papers with the 30 days, and giving yourself time to mourn the loss of your illusion--in YOUR home, with YOUR dog--probably is a wiser choice.


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## jar

That is interesting.

AC I think you just got through to me. This is something that I truly understand.

Grieving the loss of a dream and a illusion that makes sense.

Thank you
JAR


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## turnera

Don't leave, jar. That will only make you feel worse. You didn't go home to make something happen, you did it because it made you feel better about yourself. At this point, that's what it's all about. She is free to leave or file or do whatever she wants. YOU are doing what's right for you - getting back to the house you love.


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## tamara24

I agree with Turnera,stick it out and don't let the first night get to you. You wouldn't be happy with your marraige if your wife continued like this and within a few years,you would be right back here. You want a happy marraige with someone who wants those same goals. 
Keep in mind, after yelling and stating her ground, she came upstairs checked on you and invited you to watch t.v. with her. Even she does not turn out to be the spouse you want or need, you really don't want to end things on a bad note. Not saying give in to her demands, but enjoy what time you have by attempting a friendship. Maybe you can get her to play cards with you or scrabble. Just to get the hostility out of the air. Accept things for what they are at the moment and do what you need to do not only to survive but to be truly happy. Think about what you want your relationship with your wife to be when this is all said and done. Do you want to sign the paperwork and never see her again or would you like to have a friendship made out of mutual respect for one another? 
You plan to stay there until she leaves in March, you can still show her you have changed and. It is what it is. It might leave the door open for you to date later or at least be friends. Take a deep breath and know you have done all you can to save your marraige and until your wife does realize her own faults in the marraige, you can't change her or the marraige.
You can get through all this, you have made great strides, and your a better man for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks everyone for getting me refocused. I was starting to panic for a minute. AC turnera and tamara your posts were exactly what I needed to hear. I guess I needed a little bit of validation. 

I am very calm at the moment I am in the guest room of my home with my dog snoring next to me. 

On the way home I stopped and got some groceries and made my self a really nice dinner. I have lived in the house for 5 years and it is the first time I have really made anything for my self in the kitchen. A side for stuff in the microwave. I just always watched the wife do it. I also made sure I cleaned everything up.

Wife is very quite tonight. She hasn’t said too much to me and is hanging out in her bedroom. My door is open her door is closed.

I forgot how silent our house is. 

JAR


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## Affaircare

First, if your house is silent, I would recommend finding a Christmas radio station and playing it quietly in the house. Yeah you may choke up a little now and then, but it won't be quiet and it will set a nice mood in the house. 

Second, if you've lived in the house for five years and never cooked for yourself--I don't mean this mean but you owe your wife an apology. Even if she is a gourmet chef, I'm sure that felt like a burden to her and you just sat there and watched. I'm not yelling at you btw--just saying those are the kinds of things that accidentally get taken for granted, and now here you are learning. Anyway, if you do see her...or maybe in a little bit, knock on her door...just apologize. Use R-E-P-S: 
RESPONSIBILITY--don't blame shift or explain why, just state what you did and admit you did it. 
EMPATHY--express you understand how that might have made her feel.
PLAN--tell her what your plan is so that never happens again.
SAFETY--if she needs to do something to be safe from this, let her know you'd encourage her to do that (like if it was an anger issue). 

Then just say goodnight and go back to enjoying your room and your dog. Work on your Christmas cards or Holiday Letter. Watch "Christmas Vacation" or "The Santa Claus" -- it will help you get into a holiday kind of mood.


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## jar

Thanks for the advice on that one AC. I will do this when the time is right.

Wife was really quite last night and spent the evening in her room with the door shut and locked. 

She did come out a few times and asked me a few things and was cordial. She did ask for a bit of extra money to cover my half of the utilities.

This morning I ran into her in the kitchen when I was coming back from the shower and said good morning.

I guess she left for work shortly after that. I never head her leave. I did leave her a note letting her know I would be back on Sunday or Monday.

Wife just posted a mushy love song lyric on face book. I hardly doubt it is directed at me.

In terms of the divorce it is not clear to me what I am going to do. I see it as I have two options move forward with the divorce process or move towards a legal separation. 

I have a lot to sort out. 

In terms of my emotions and feelings they are hurt by the face book comment and her not saying good bye this morning. I know I should expect it. I feel like she doesn’t acknowledge my existence for the most part because it is easier.

My mind is also running around in circles pretty good right now. Which is making me a little anxious. It is making it hard to focus on work today. 

JAR


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## turnera

Think about some positive things, actions you can take in the next few days to bolster yourself. Go golfing, or jog a couple miles, or take the dog to the park. Focus on those or other quality of life things.


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## Pam

Jar, I'm probably old enough to be your mother, but I'm still a fully functioning woman. I'm going to be fairly blunt, and I hope our hosts don't get upset with me over it. 

Your wife didn't say good-bye this morning because she didn't want to. She doesn't want you there, she doesn't want to have to talk to you. You *might* have won a few brownie points if you had cooked enough for two last night, but then, you might have gone to the trouble to be told "no thank you".

You are going to have to accustom yourself to co-inhabiting the same house with next to no communication. I have followed your months of anguish, and I am so sorry you are going through this. But you aren't living in the real world, if you thought that moving back home would re-establish a happy marriage. Your wife has pretty much given you every indication that she is moving on with her life, and that you aren't going to be part of it.

I agree with Turnera, you need to do things for yourself and focus on your life now.


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## jar

I have been home since last week. Aside from the initial freak out the wife has been fine.

I didn’t stay last weekend because her family was coming to put up the Christmas tree and decorate it.

I have stayed home every night this week. I have had a crazy work schedule and haven’t been getting home till really late. It is really nice to be there. It feels write…

I have been writing wife a note every morning letting her know my general schedule and things that I feel she should know. I know I don’t have to do this but my roommate and I always checked in with one another about general day to day stuff and schedules. Wife doesn’t reciprocate but I don’t expect her to.

I have done some cooking at home since I have returned. It is been nice to make stuff in my own kitchen. Wife usually gets curious what I am up to and finds reasons to come and check on me. I think I am invading her territory in the kitchen but I tread lightly and make sure I pick up my mess and do the dishes.

Through out the day I find my self asking myself if I doing xyz for me or am I doing this for the wife. For instances the other night I made some home made soup. I kept asking myself am I making this soup at 9pm at night because I am trying to prove some point to the wife or do I like soup and I want to make it now. When ever I ask my self these questions I find my motives to be for me. This is a good feeling.

Wife continues to lock her bedroom door at night and is kind of quite and withdrawn. She was wrapping x mas presents the other night and I tried to have a conversation with her about what she got everyone. Her response was stuff. The other day I told her that a friend of mine was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and had gone blind in one eye and her response was OH.

She is so different from the image I had in my head. Wife has even gained several pounds. I would say she is not doing so well I can see it.

I got home last night a little before midnight from work and slept in this morning till 9. When I got up wife was just coming back home from work. She said she was dizzy and was going back to bed. She has vertigo issue when she is over tried and stressed out.

I told her what my dinner menu was for tonight and invited her to have dinner with me at the kitchen table. She didn’t say yes or no.

I hired an attorney and met with him the other night. I was there for two hours talking to him. The state I live in is a fault state and I could move towards proving her infidelity in court and counter file that infidelity is the cause for the break down of the marriage. My layer advised me not take this wrote because it would be really expensive and make everyone severally upset ugly and emotional. He told me at best I may end up with 55% of our material possessions and that it really wasn’t worth it.
I think that I agree with him on this and it is something I do not plan to peruse at the moment. 

I did explain that I wanted to really slow down things and wanted to be able to take lots of time to be comfortable with the situation and make good choices opposed to emotional ones. In fact I told him that I wanted to move towards putting things on hold until our house sold. He seemed to think he could by me time until May or June with out much trouble. This is also my final time frame for throwing in the towel on all this. My attorney seemed to listen to me and understand where I was coming from. He is working up a strategy at this point.

This guy cost a ton of money I have already blown my entire Xmas budget. Looks like every one is getting a card with the jelly of the month club membership in it. Lol


I got really up set at lunch today. I was checking my face book page. On the right hand side it said do you know OM you have other mutual friends that know him. I was looking at the picture he had up. I am reasonably certain that the picture is of him sitting in front of our picture window. It is tough to tell but the landscape that you can see through the window looks a lot like the trees in my front yard. Wife promised other man would not come in our home or be around our dog during our mediation sessions. I told him if he was I would get a no trespassing order put in place.

I was able to calm down and get focused on something else. I think I am just going to drop this and not even bring it up. It’s not even worth it.

JAR


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## Tanelornpete

> This guy cost a ton of money I have already blown my entire Xmas budget. Looks like every one is getting a card with the jelly of the month club membership in it. Lol


It's the gift that keeps on giving the whole year through!


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## jar

nice...one of my favortie movies


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## tamara24

Jar,
Sorry you are under the weather. There is so much to enjoy this time of year to be sick!

First, it is nice that you leave the notes for your wife,but I wouldn't go to the bother. She is trying to make her point clear and making sure you are not happy with your time there. Offering to fix her a bowl of soup when she isn't feeling good is a nice gesture. I like that you are doing things for you!
Remember women that get stressed out tend to gain that extra weight. I have hips to prove that fact!!hahaha! She isn't dealing with everything so well, but that was HER choice. You have offered to help her out but you can lead a horse to water......
Feel better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Sigh…..I got home tonight and there were some packages at the front door. One was from sears one from Fredrick’s of Hollywood…..maybe it is a new bathrobe and nothing racy for the OM.  I looked at the Christmas cards that came my in laws didn’t include me. I walked into the living room and the dog had accident on the living room floor. Diarrhea our dog is a 110 pound Great Dane.:wtf:

Huge ego blow. I am pounding away on the laptop doing some work trying to get my mind off things. Very very frustrated.

Wife is at her families for the weekend.


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## turnera

I would take the Frederick's package and wrap it from you to her, and let her open it in front of her family. "Oh, my bad. You bought that yourself to wear for OM, didn't you?"


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think you are doing just fine.


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## Affaircare

> ... I have stayed home every night this week. I have had a crazy work schedule and haven’t been getting home till really late. It is really nice to be there. It feels right…


I kind of thought it would. It's my understanding that when you two picked this house, you loved it and felt it was "home" and she expressed approval but probably was not utterly as enthusiastic as you were. Thus it may be a place to stay with no particular emotional connection for her...but for you it is home with your pet and deep personal connection; your place to be. 



> I have been writing wife a note every morning letting her know my general schedule and things that I feel she should know. I know I don’t have to do this but my roommate and I always checked in with one another about general day to day stuff and schedules. Wife doesn’t reciprocate but I don’t expect her to.


This sounds civil. "Just so you know, I will be leaving at 6am tomorrow and returning around 9pm. I'll make my own dinner. The electric bill is due and I've left the bill and my half on the table by the door. ~JAR" sounds perfect to me. It just communicates that you are respecting her enough to give her some facts so she can also plan her life. I will say that I find it interesting that she doesn't reciprocate. That actually says a lot about her and her character. 



> Through out the day I find my self asking myself if I doing xyz for me or am I doing this for the wife. For instances the other night I made some home made soup. I kept asking myself am I making this soup at 9pm at night because I am trying to prove some point to the wife or do I like soup and I want to make it now. When ever I ask my self these questions I find my motives to be for me. This is a good feeling.


You are making great, personal strides here JAR. Do you realize that just by what you're saying here, you are not only asking yourself about your motivation, but you are also aware that you, as a person, have a propensity to do things that are "not okay" with you in order to please others? You're AWARE that you do that, and so you check yourself! That's huge! Most people never get to the point of even realizing what their own weaknesses are...much less checking themselves (to see if they're doing it) -and- if they are, changing! The more you find yourself doing things that are true to your core being and not doing things that are "not okay" with you and or not on track with your true core--the better you'll feel! And then you can be true to you AND you'll be mature enough to choose to share your True You with someone else! 

(And see how that is transparency--aka "intimacy"? You can't be intimate if you are hiding the True You! If you are not see-through enough for your partner to see the True You, then you aren't showing them you and they don't love YOU...they love the image you've shown them when you cover up YOU. Transparency = True You = truly Known and Loved Intimately)



> Wife continues to lock her bedroom door at night and is kind of quite and withdrawn. She was wrapping x mas presents the other night and I tried to have a conversation with her about what she got everyone. Her response was stuff. The other day I told her that a friend of mine was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and had gone blind in one eye and her response was OH.


JAR, I hate to have to tell you, but my guess is that deep within herself she is not happy, and she's not happy because she keeps making other people responsible for "making her happy" rather than taking that responsibility herself. She does what she knows is wrong and justifies it. She had free reign to do "whatever" in the house while you were gone and now she can't carry on as if she's single. Her family is not lovingly encouraging her to do the right thing! So she's casting about, alone, blaming others for her choices, looking to others rather than working on her own personally harmful actions, and the longer this goes on, the harder her heart will become and the more this foggy-selfish behavior will become the woman she is! That's SAD!



> She is so different from the image I had in my head. Wife has even gained several pounds. I would say she is not doing so well I can see it.


This is actually very, VERY important. The image you had in your head was the image started during the Love Kindler phase and continued somewhat with The Illusion. Your illusion of her was someone who kindled your love naturally, who wanted to continue kindling, and who was faithfully devoted. In addition I'm sure The Illusion had some other characteristics assigned to her, most likely positive qualities. But here...now...you're seeing her AS SHE REALLY IS! She's really not The Illusion at all. Now, it's conceivable that for all the years of your marriage she had some characteristics that have now changed (due to justifying the affair) but some of the characteristics just were you being in love with her and filling in positives to fit The Illusion. Seeing her as she really is can be really hard because in real life, she is choosing to be those negative qualities now. They may have been there somewhat all along but to a lessor degree; you may have just "glossed over" them at the time. But right now, this is who she is and it would seem she is DETERMINED to be THIS woman...who she is now. 

It's quite a shock to see who she is, isn't it?



> I hired an attorney and met with him the other night. I was there for two hours talking to him. The state I live in is a fault state and I could move towards proving her infidelity in court and counter file that infidelity is the cause for the break down of the marriage. My layer advised me not take this route because it would be really expensive and make everyone severally upset ugly and emotional. He told me at best I may end up with 55% of our material possessions and that it really wasn’t worth it.
> I think that I agree with him on this and it is something I do not plan to peruse at the moment.


Honestly I think this is both wise and reasonable. Yes, you could spend tons of time, money, energy and frankly animosity proving IN PUBLIC that she is an adulteress (because she is), but the cost to you would not be worth any potential gain in my opinion. So far you've done a good job standing for the marriage, responding when you are required to do so, and managing or putting it off to give her the maximum opportunity to return to her vows. So far you've been fair; you've looked at yourself and your contributions; you've told the truth; and I personally think you can hold your head up. If she's determined to divorce you can't stop her, even by proving adultery! Thus I tend to agree with you on this decision. It would only add spite and hatred. 



> I did explain that I wanted to really slow down things and wanted to be able to take lots of time to be comfortable with the situation and make good choices opposed to emotional ones. In fact I told him that I wanted to move towards putting things on hold until our house sold. He seemed to think he could by me time until May or June with out much trouble. This is also my final time frame for throwing in the towel on all this. My attorney seemed to listen to me and understand where I was coming from. He is working up a strategy at this point.


This is entirely EXCELLENT! It's extremely good to hear that this attorney would work as you wish, at your pace, in your best interests in the way you want! Perfect job. I also think you did a great job explaining what you want and why you want to make a wise decision, not an emotional one. I also like that he believes he can buy you time until your final timeframe so that also sounds perfect. I might suggest considering the option of buying her out of the house and you keep it. You'll probably have to argue a LOT about the value of the property (clearly it's not worth the price you have it set at right now, otherwise it would have sold for that amount) but I have no doubt she'll try to say it's worth a whole bunch so she could get a big payout! LOL But I have some faith in you JAR. You are realistic and pretty fair. I suspect you may feel pretty good in YOUR HOME.  



> This guy cost a ton of money I have already blown my entire Xmas budget. Looks like every one is getting a card with the jelly of the month club membership in it. Lol











Clark: It's a one year membership to the Jelly of the Month Club. 
Eddie: Clark, that's the gift that just keeps on givin' the whole year

Merry Christmas, JAR.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

I not ready to say much of the above is typical but I do same some similarities with my situation. My wife is an unhappy person. I didn't make her that way. I am a "happy". I see the positive where I can. I am optimistic. I am a decent and honorable person and tired of being blamed for her shortcomings.
She is free. She thinks this entitles her to do what she wants and to be her "real" self. It is all about selfishness. She thinks this will bring happiness. In fact it will bring her pain. On the surface it is exemplified by her use of expletives whenever she needs a modifier to describe something. It is a dark spot on her soul.
Deep down she probably is most concerned with putting herself first and her deires ahead of everyone elses. I would expect this is demonstrated sexually in a way that she never expressed to me. Now she has the freedom to try different things. But shame runs deep in her. At some point I expect that the accumulated guilt willl bubble to the surface. Then the shame will cause her great pain. 
As I have said before, she is the most unhappy "happy" person I have ever know.


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## jar

Thanks for the comments

After Friday night I ended up having an ok weekend. Dog and I went up to my place in the woods and packed up some more things and brought them home.

Sunday was a rainy day so I made some chili and had a nice fire in our fireplace. Wife showed up in the evening and didn’t really have much to say and locked her self in her room for the rest of the night.

I did ask her if there was anything I could do to make her feel more comfortable in the house or any annoying behaviors of mine that might be bothering her. She just said no and walked off.


Last night I met with my attorney again. Wife knows nothing of this. Mid January I need to submit some financially paper work to him. 

Last night when I got home wife was baking up a storm making these little Christmas cakes. She had about a 100 of them made. They are very labor intensive. She was worn out and complaning a little bit. I asked if I could help and she accepted. She smears on the icing and I put on the coconut. That is normally my job. So I helped finish up and helped with the dishes. We were able to laugh a little bit and have a normal conversation. I enjoyed doing something together that is a normal tradition for us.

During the dish see reminded me she would be out of town this weekend. About 10 [email protected]# hole comments went through my head at that moment but I held them in. The rest of the evening I hung out in my room.

This morning we got ready at about the same time. We were getting our lunches together at the same time and she was talkative which was nice. 

I still find my self asking the question am I doing xyz for me or for her. The answer is still for me. But guess what it dawned on me that some of these things are love kindlers for wife weather she admits it or not.

So that is the blow by blow for now.

JAR


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## jessi

Hi Jar, 
Just checking in on your thread to see how you are doing......I'm glad you are getting a few little happys doing some normal things with your wife.........but that's all it is Jar, I think she is clear about the future being separate from each other.......I am so glad you have an attorney and you are protecting yourself and what ever assets you two have...........
Please don't read to much into anything she says or does or what you preceive it to be..........the mind can play many tricks on us.......
Jar, have you thought about going out and just meeting some new friends........I don't mean a relationship I mean just friends, join a group, a volleyball team something like that........
a running group..............whatever you like to do.............
I think it's time to make Jar's life a little more fun..........


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## OhGeesh

Good stuff Jar......you need some new friends or go hang out with old ones or something. The wife's intentions are clear really no reason to spend your time hanging out hoping for a kindling here or a conversation there.

Hope the holidays aren't too painfull.


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## jar

I am having a tough time…

The other day I was down in the dumps and rather irritable for a number of reasons so I spent some time out with friends. It really helped a lot.

I continue to take care of my self and act kind and patience towards my wife when I see her. Many of you would not agree but that is the kind of guy I am to everyone so I see no reason to treat hear differently.

Last night was a very strange night for me. I got home at my usual time and I brought home take out for myself. Wife hadn’t had dinner and was debating what to have. She always has dinner with out me.

She was very talkative and in a good mood. More like how I remember her. Playing with the dog singing laughing. We watched the news together for about 45 minutes and we chatted about current events and such. The whole time I was thinking to my self what your deal is. Are you on meds or something? I was a little uncomfortable. Of course she brought up her holiday travel plans and schedule again. She has brought it up every day for 2 weeks now.

Her mother called her and I left the room to pay some bills and get organized for today. My room is near the living room and she was talking to her mom about all kinds of things. Her mom must have asked about her travel schedule. Wife said she flies out at 8 tonight and fly’s home on Tuesday and leave at 8am. She asked my wife to check in with her when she got there.

This made me irritable. Is her family accepting of her travel plans? This divorce…The affair…. what has she told them about me….

Wife finished her conversation yells up to me in my room and says hay Big bang theory is on you should come down and watch it with me. It is suppose to be really funny tonight.

I did go and watch the show…She was very giggly and happy. I was uncomfortable. She actually asked if everything was ok. I respond yeah I am fine. She was acting like my old wife. How could she have such a huge mood swing in such a short time? Is she happy because she is traveling today….Is she happy she has the next 2 weeks off. I can only speculate but I am assuming she is going to see the OM today and she is feeling good because she is getting her crack.

It is confirmed other man was laid off in October from her work. In November he moved 500 miles away and is working for a new company. I heard this through the grape vine.

All I kept thinking is for 10 years now we have always spent the holidays together and this year she doesn’t want to be around me. Most of the Christmas cards that have come to the house do no include my name. My birthday is next week as well and if you recall I made efforts to spend time with her on her birthday. She will be with the OM.

I am a little irritable, jealous, and my feelings are hurt. I am glad I don’t have to see her for the next 2 weeks.

I see my wife much differently now….I see the hand writing on the wall. I am trying my best to accept her decision. I try so hard not to expect anything from her at this point. It is easier when she is cold and distant. I am very careful and don’t let my mind run away with hopes up for a different situation. 

She was very talkative in the kitchen again today. She had her suitcase packed. She asked me if I was ok. I wasn’t talkative. I am not a morning person and generally prefer to be left alone in the morning. I wanted to say no I am not ok. You are running off to be with OM and it is not OK. On my way out today I said happy holidays. She wished me a happy birth day and I left for work.

This would be so much easier if I hated my wife. 

Needed to vent again

JAR


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## turnera

I don't understand why you couldn't say that to her. Why would you lie?


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## jar

I am not sure….I guess I am trying to show her that she doesn’t get to me any more or something…Its kind of tuff to want to talk about these sorts of things when you have divorce papers and attorneys involved. It wouldn’t change her behavior and probably would cause some sort of argument. She has been clear with her decisions and behavior at this point.


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## turnera

Argument...so what? At least you'd have your dignity. She can't respect you until you respect yourself, jar. Start TELLING her that she is HURTING you. Who knows, maybe that's the one thing she needs - someone to finally take her to task and ask her to look at herself in the mirror.


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## michzz

Make plans for your birthday and the holidays that SPECIFICALLY do not include her.

Seriously, do something fun.


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## Affaircare

> I see my wife much differently now….I see the hand writing on the wall. I am trying my best to accept her decision. I try so hard not to expect anything from her at this point. It is easier when she is cold and distant. I am very careful and don’t let my mind run away with hopes up for a different situation.


Part of the "good" that comes from moving home--in addition to being in a place you love and consider your HOME--is that while you were away you had that Illusion Image of your wife. The image was maybe memories of the way she used to be when she was happy with you, and you viewed her as a thoughtful, loving wife. Now reality is showing you that the image you were holding onto was an Illusion. And I will bet your $100 part of your hurt and anger right now is a) day by day by day she is pouring love extinguishers on you and your love fire is almost out and b) admitting to yourself that the Illusion was not real is EXTREMELY painful. It feels like you were fooled, and then deliberately taken advantage of. And about 99% of who you're really angry at is yourself, because you think to yourself "I should have seen it! I should have stood up for myself! I shouldn't have ignored the red flags!" 

These next two weeks might be a great time to feel and get through some of the anger you feel. Usually when people are deeply angry they try to avoid it because "being angry isn't nice" (or something) but in this case, don't turn away from it, let yourself feel it, and even say something out loud if you want to! Hey why not? 



> She was very talkative in the kitchen again today. She had her suitcase packed. She asked me if I was ok. I wasn’t talkative. I am not a morning person and generally prefer to be left alone in the morning. I wanted to say no I am not ok. You are running off to be with OM and it is not OK. On my way out today I said happy holidays. She wished me a happy birth day and I left for work.


NOTE TO SELF: It is okay for you to be transparent with her, even if she does not respect you enough to return it. There would have been absolutely nothing wrong with saying, "Well to be honest it's two things. First, I'm not much of a morning person so I pad along quietly until my coffee kicks in. But second, I'm not okay. The woman I'm still married to is running away to be with another man and won't even be around for my birthday, and that hurts. So I'm not okay with that and rather than say something I regret I'm choosing to just be quiet."


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## tamara24

Jar,

Your wife is probably getting more at ease with you being at the house and you have not been hounding her at all so the tension is thinning in the house.

At this point, she knows your not ok. That's why is she asking. You don't have to start a fight but being honest with her. It might help in clearing the fog. At this point,it is what it is,but if she can start talking and start thinking about her role in damaging the marraige,it might lead to even friendlier ending and a door to reconcile later. If OM is really that far away and she has plans to move to another apt. In March,you know that she is not planning to move away with him. Long distance relationships don't last that far away.

I would keep it cool. Enjoy the time you can spend with her. It will eithier bring you to more comfortable terms or as you are finding out, will break the illusion you had. Nobody is perfect and you might be breaking her illusion of you too. 

Don't stay home on your bday, go out with friends. Stay busy. Look forward to all the changes you have made and what you are working on. Make a list of things you want to accomplish before this time next year. Maybe learn a new hobby, since your back in the house what about a smaller version of your salt water tank since you enjoyed that so much. 

Happy Birthday,Jar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

The past week or so has been very quite with the wife and I. She has been out of town. I can only assume she has been spending time with the OM. 

I have been enjoying spending time at home with my dog. I actually cleaned the whole house the other day and didn’t mind doing it. It still feels really good to be back home.

Wife came home yesterday for a few hours to pack up the dog and do some laundry. She then headed to her families. I did get a text from her asking where the dog leash was. I had left it in my car. My office is on the way to her families place so I recommended a place to meet at near the highway so I could give her the leash.

Our meeting was very quick. I gave her the leash gave the dog a pet and turned to leave to go back to work. Wife managed to wish me a happy birthday and I thanked her in return. Wife was looking at me kind strangely yesterday. I can’t really explain it. 

I had left a note for my wife giving her an update on a few things I felt she needed to know about. She had written a note back to me saying she has been notified that I have retained an attorney and that she wants to discus this after the holidays. I think she is surprised that I got one. I really had no choice.

The other part of the note was letting me know that the dog has reservation at the kennel for a few days around the 29th and that she needed to know if I would be around to take care of her. Because if I am going to be around she needs to cancel the reservations. This frustrated me a little bit. I don’t know how many times I can say I know what the dates are and that if I can watch her I will cancel the reservations. I told her she could take this off of her agenda about 5 times now. Such a trivial thing to worry about.

My last post I was rather angry and irritable because I could not understand why wife couldn’t even send me a birthday card or Christmas card. I was feeling the same way about wife’s family as well. 

I had a big epiphany last weekend. I sat there and admitted to myself that I am angry and irritable because I am not getting my way and I expect these things from my wife and her family. I can admit this is kind of a selfish way of thinking as well. When I came to this conclusion my mind and emotions calmed right down. I have been in a really good place since.

This is the holiday season and I am trying my best to be humble. It is about giving and letting loved ones know you are thinking of them. I decided that just because my wife or her family have not included me in the holidays that it would be ok to let them know I am thinking of them and that I don’t have to follow in there foot steps.

I sent them a few gifts yesterday. I got my twin nieces a gift. I sent a card to her grandparents. I also sent a simple holiday card with everyone’s name addressed on it. I also included a gift certificate for them to all go out as a family and have a nice lunch or dinner together. Since wife has the dog I sent the dog her gift. I wanted to get wife something this year. I have been practicing my photography skills and I got a great picture of our dog so I had it framed. I also sent a card to the wife. To keep things light hearted I wrote from the dog on both the card and the gift.

So that’s my update this week

JAR


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## jar

I have been doing very well since my last post. I had a great couple of days off from work and spent them with family. It was very relaxing and I enjoyed the time with them. Since my big revelation I have been feeling really at peace.

Wife texted me a few days before Christmas letting me know my package had arrived at her family’s place. On Christmas she texted me merry Christmas and let me know everyone really liked the gifts I sent to them.

Monday night I got text from wife saying her gram was about to pass away. I called her immediately and we talked about it for a while. 20 min after we got off the phone wife texted me that her gram had just passed away. Wife came home on Tuesday morning at some point with the dog. on my way home from work herwife texted me and asked if I wanted anything from the fancy Japanese restaurant in town. I was almost in the drive way when she texted me this. I called in the order and went and picked it up since I need to run errands.

I came home and we ate dinner on the couch and talked about the holidays for over an hour and a half. It was a nice normal conversation. Wife was very chatty. Telling me about her family and her gram that passed away. I listed very intently it was nice to connect a little bit. Wife actually thanked me a few different times during the evening for a number of things. Holiday gifts. Picking up dinner. Etc. It was a glimpse of my old wife. It was nice.

Wife was supposed to leave today to go some where. Now she is leaving tomorrow and will be back on Saturday morning. She cut her trip short because the funeral and wake will be on Sunday and Monday. I am not sure why she cut the trip short and stayed an extra day here at home. Sounded like the holidays were really intense for her with all her family.

On my way home tonight wife texted me a gain and asked if I wanted a sandwich at the pizza place. She went out and picked them up and it was waiting for when I got home. I thanked her for this gesture. Wife is chatty again tonight but I needed some time to myself so I figured I would post on here. 

I am trying not to get my hopes up what so ever and look at these things as nice gestures and that is it. I actually I am being really careful about this. Wife could be nasty tomorrow.

I plan to attend the funeral and the wake this weekend. I asked her if it was ok and she also talked with her family about it. I haven’t really seen any of them in 8 months now. I am going to go and pay my respects and make an appearance. I think I am going to send some flowers up for her family as well. 

Wife doesn’t seem to heart broken her gram had been suffering for a long time. I am a bit surprised she is not with her family helping get things ready.

Other wise I am focusing mostly on taking care of my self. The last two nights my wife has asked me a million little question about all kinds of things. I don’t really ask her any questions. Things like are those new pants. Did you get a hair cut? When did you get those shoes? Etc

I received notice today that we have a court date in March. It is a planning session.

So that is the latest here in JAR land.
JAR


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## OhGeesh

Thanks for the update JAR!! You seem like you are doing very well...KUDOS to you and I hope you enjoy what's left of the season. Keep us posted we are rooting for you!


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## turnera

My gut feeling is that being around family has reminded her of your marriage, the 'good' marriage, and she's putting out feelers to see if it was 'real.' By continuing to be pleasant, attentive, helpful, but still respecting yourself, you have the best option of getting what you want. 

For now.


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## ArmyofJuan

Ok Jar, I’m new to this forum but not new to this situation. My wife had an affair and we reconciled 3 times over the course of 1.5 years and we are together now going on 2 years. 

I was in your shoes once, acting the same way and making the same now obvious mistakes. There is still a way, maybe a chance in a million, of saving this but it would require you to do things that go against your nature and after reading your post, you’ll disagree with. Your biggest problem is that you have been doing all the work to fix the marriage when all this time it should had been her. She hasn’t had to do anything so she isn’t motivated to do anything. Nothing worth having comes easy and you’ve made things too easy for her.

You have been way, way, WAY too accommodating to your wife. She sees you as weak and pathetic (no offensive, that’s just from her POV) and telling her things like you can work this out just enables her affair. Being nice to a cheater gets you nowhere and if anything, makes things so much worse. I did the same thing and pretty much the same thing happened to me.

The problem is, she knows you are a good guy but you are a push over and will always be there if things go south for her. She is not “feeling” it for you because it’s boring, safe, and I’m sure the guilt and shame of what she has done plays a part. However, acting like a sap and being the good guy can work to your advantage if you can now do a 180. You basically need to act the opposite of how you have been acting which will be a dramatic change sure to get her attention. 

Guess which guy has the best chance (and higher rate) of reconciling:
The guy that says “I’ll always be there for you and we can work through whatever issues that come up”

Or 

The guy that says “Get out, I don’t want to see your face and I’m filing for a divorce tomorrow! Don’t call me or come anywhere near me. It’s over!”
(hint: it’s number 2)

You know what started my 3rd and most successful reconciliation with my wife? I emailed her asking “Have you made a court date yet? I ready to get this embarrassment of a marriage over with”. I hated her with every fiber of my being. This was after me going NC (I ignore her calls and text/emails) AND she was living with the OM. It took her a good 2 months to convince me to take her back. 

Never let them feel too comfortable, if they think you’ll never leave they will take advantage of you like your wife did.

If I was in your shoes, I would immediately stop talking to her and avoid being around her. Leave the house every chance you get so you are not there when she is and go full steam 100% towards that divorce like your life depended on it. Don’t be a jerk but act cold and business like to her, no talking about personal stuff, no notes, no telling her what you are doing and just not be there. The less she sees of you the better. She needs to FEEL that you are going to be gone forever to see the consequences of her actions which she hasn’t dealt with yet. Don’t worry about the divorce, you can always remarry later.

The nice, respectful way you have been treating her has pushing her away. It’s time to man up and put your foot down and look out for number one. The ONLY way you you’ll have a chance to get her back, if possible, will be after she realizes you no longer want her. 

Don’t fight her; give her EXACTLY what she says she wants. Agree with everything she says and it will take the wind out of her sails. Give up on her so it’s now her job to win you back.

This sounds bad reading over it but the only successes I have seen in these situations is when tough love was being use. You stand up for yourself and stop trying to win them back and watch how fast the tables turn. You become much more attractive when you start to reject them for once.


----------



## OhGeesh

ArmyofJuan said:


> Ok Jar, I’m new to this forum but not new to this situation. My wife had an affair and we reconciled 3 times over the course of 1.5 years and we are together now going on 2 years.
> 
> I was in your shoes once, acting the same way and making the same now obvious mistakes. There is still a way, maybe a chance in a million, of saving this but it would require you to do things that go against your nature and after reading your post, you’ll disagree with. Your biggest problem is that you have been doing all the work to fix the marriage when all this time it should had been her. She hasn’t had to do anything so she isn’t motivated to do anything. Nothing worth having comes easy and you’ve made things too easy for her.
> 
> You have been way, way, WAY too accommodating to your wife. She sees you as weak and pathetic (no offensive, that’s just from her POV) and telling her things like you can work this out just enables her affair. Being nice to a cheater gets you nowhere and if anything, makes things so much worse. I did the same thing and pretty much the same thing happened to me.
> 
> The problem is, she knows you are a good guy but you are a push over and will always be there if things go south for her. She is not “feeling” it for you because it’s boring, safe, and I’m sure the guilt and shame of what she has done plays a part. However, acting like a sap and being the good guy can work to your advantage if you can now do a 180. You basically need to act the opposite of how you have been acting which will be a dramatic change sure to get her attention.
> 
> Guess which guy has the best chance (and higher rate) of reconciling:
> The guy that says “I’ll always be there for you and we can work through whatever issues that come up”
> 
> Or
> 
> The guy that says “Get out, I don’t want to see your face and I’m filing for a divorce tomorrow! Don’t call me or come anywhere near me. It’s over!”
> (hint: it’s number 2)
> 
> You know what started my 3rd and most successful reconciliation with my wife? I emailed her asking “Have you made a court date yet? I ready to get this embarrassment of a marriage over with”. I hated her with every fiber of my being. This was after me going NC (I ignore her calls and text/emails) AND she was living with the OM. It took her a good 2 months to convince me to take her back.
> 
> Never let them feel too comfortable, if they think you’ll never leave they will take advantage of you like your wife did.
> 
> If I was in your shoes, I would immediately stop talking to her and avoid being around her. Leave the house every chance you get so you are not there when she is and go full steam 100% towards that divorce like your life depended on it. Don’t be a jerk but act cold and business like to her, no talking about personal stuff, no notes, no telling her what you are doing and just not be there. The less she sees of you the better. She needs to FEEL that you are going to be gone forever to see the consequences of her actions which she hasn’t dealt with yet. Don’t worry about the divorce, you can always remarry later.
> 
> The nice, respectful way you have been treating her has pushing her away. It’s time to man up and put your foot down and look out for number one. The ONLY way you you’ll have a chance to get her back, if possible, will be after she realizes you no longer want her.
> 
> Don’t fight her; give her EXACTLY what she says she wants. Agree with everything she says and it will take the wind out of her sails. Give up on her so it’s now her job to win you back.
> 
> This sounds bad reading over it but the only successes I have seen in these situations is when tough love was being use. You stand up for yourself and stop trying to win them back and watch how fast the tables turn. You become much more attractive when you start to reject them for once.


Too late for any of that now!! That cow has gone off to pasture...... Either his wife is enjoying the loving, caring, and cleaner JAR as the holidays have gone by and is wondering if she truly wants a divorce. Or she is just being nice until the day comes.

What you propose might have worked a long time ago, but now it would seem very irrational since they have already retained attorneys etc and are going through the process of divorce. To act the way you describe at this point would be very strange.


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## jar

So today wife took off to go some where. I assume to be with the other man.

This evening on my way home I broke the ice and gave her parents a call. I wanted to break the ice and let them know I am hear and thinking of them during this time.

My father in law answered and we talked for a while. I let them know that I was thinking of them and that I send my condolences. He told me about how grandma had passed away and that it was peacefully. We talked mostly about this sort of thing. He was getting pretty choked up on the phone. I think that part of it was talking to me and part of it was grandma. Grandma is mother in laws mom. I haven’t talked to her family in over 6 months.

Last night wife said that it was ok that I go to the funeral. I didn’t feel like it was an enthusiastic ok but it was an ok. I asked my father in law if he and the family felt comfortable with me attending the funeral. He told me it was up to my wife. He said as long as it was ok with wife he and the family would be ok with it. He said that he hadn’t heard back from my wife on her discussion. I told him that wife said it was ok for me to attend. Father in law told me the places and times of the funeral. I am not sure they know she is out of town at this point. I also told my father in law that if you think it will be too much of an over load with me being there that it was ok and to let me know. He was choked up during this part of the conversation to.

JAR


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## tamara24

Jar,

I think you are on the right path. It is very thoughtful that you asked her dad about coming and it shows them you are not the man your wife has painted in her mind or theirs.

It is nice the wife is asking about sharing meals and thinking of you. After the funeral, I would be sure to make a meal or do some little nice gesture to show that you care for her loss. Don't try to analize her sudden change inbehavior,take it as it is. Still show her the man yyou have become and what she is missing. She already has noticed new shoes, clothes haircut. I think wifey is seeing you as an attractive man. March is still awhile away.continue the work on yourself and keep the center of peace you have been feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I would say continue on as you are. Don't look for any "hidden messages" in her behavior, just take it for what it is. To some degree, just be thoughtful as if she were a roommate and if you enjoy her company, then when she spends some time with you enjoy it in the moment. 

And for the funeral, if you think it would be uncomfy for her and/or her family but you and gramma had a good relationship, I would say go to the funeral, be polite, and stand back a bit at the edges. The one you're honoring is the gramma but those left are the ones mourning her loss, so it's cool to be thoughtful of them and what they're going through.


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## jar

Another update. It has been an emotional few days for everyone here with the passing of grandma in law. 

I had a nice new years I was invited out to two different new years’ eve parties. In the ended I stayed home and watched a movie with the dog. I like my Jar time some times. It was a very nice relaxing night and I was quite content.

Wife showed back up after being gone a day and a half. She showed up early to. 9 Am. Where ever she was I don’t think she was far a way and I suspect the OM was around.

Wife was home just long enough to get unpacked and packed back up. She let me know the times and places of the funeral. One the way out the door she said see you up there babe. While she was home she cooked her self some breakfast and asked if I wanted some. I declined because I had just finished a cup of coffee and some left over Chinese food. She was also very talkative again while she was here. She asked me if I had watched the ball drop on TV. She was then telling me about all the different performers that were on as well.

Last night was grandma in laws wake. I decided to go her and I always had a good relationship. I wanted to say goodbye and also see my in laws. It was a 2.5 hours drive to get there. I stayed about 20min. Said my good bys. My mother in law wife’s sister and her aunt all lost it when they saw me. Big hugs and a lot of tears. Many family and family friends made a point to come over and give me a hug or shake my hand. There were some that also kept there distance and some that didn’t know a thing about what was going on. Many thanked me for making an appearance. On my way out the door my bro in law stopped me and asked me to come out to his car. He gave me a Christmas gift. A framed picture of my nieces. While at the wake I did give wife a hug but that was the extant of our interaction.

Today was the funeral. The church was very full. I ended up taking a seat all the way in the back corner. I got the old eyeball from a few people when they noticed me. It was tough seeing my in laws. Funerals of loved ones are so sad. Wife was one of the casket carriers. On the way out she was crying pretty well. I hate seeing her so upset. 

After the service coffee and lunch were being served while the family went to the cemetery. Only close family went to the cemetery. I followed along. At the cemetery I kept my distance. My mom and dad in law I got big hugs from a long with a few of wife’s cousins and aunts as we were leaving. They all thanked me for coming and they told me it meant a lot.

Wife didn’t really acknowledge me most of the time. She did mention that she would be home tonight. I left for home after the cemetery. Most people didn’t know what to say to me so I didnt go to the lunch.

On my way home I bought a few flowers for wife. Something really simple and not over he top and left them in her room. She noticed them a few minutes ago and seemed pretty annoyed but thanked me. I wanted to cheer her up some. The flowers were too much I guess. She seems tired so I am in my room giving her space.

What a roller coaster
JAR


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## turnera

Remind me what's going on, after 50 pages...what's your status and plans?


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## jar

Dec 1….

Discovered the affair

Dec-March…..

Lots of martial counseling and individual counseling

March….

Wife left me for 2 weeks and stayed in a hotel. Ultimately she returned home and decided to continue working on the marriage.

June….

Wife came clean and said she never ended the affair…I was destroyed and moved out only taking a suitcase of clothes.

June-Aug….

Almost not contact with one another…Also began mediation. I wanted reconciliation. Wife wanted to sell house divorce and split possessions.

Aug-Sep….

I agreed to sell the house. Fired mediator….Worked together fixing up house.

Oct-Nov…

Wife began talking about divorce again….Layoffs at her employer….Wife retained attorney.

Dec….

I decided it was time to go home and moved home….Wife filed for divorce…discovered OM was laid off and now lives and works far away. I retained an attorney. First court Date is March…Wife says she is moving out in March.

My plan is plan A as best I can while we are living together. Originally I was planning to go plan b on Jan 1. However since I am now living at home I do not plan on going plan B for now.

June 1….I will be done with plan A and/or B unless some sort of miracle happens. The way things are moving at this point the divorce should be finalized by this date as well.

After divorce I will be finding a new job, moving, and starting a new life….After house sells I will be building a new home.


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## tamara24

You sound like you have a solid plan. I would continue to look towards those goals and keep on the timeline. You have invested years into this marraige, what is another six months to make sure you end everything knowing that you tried all that you could.

Secondly, wife was probably annoyed about the flowers in the bedroom because that is her personal space. She has made a habit of locking the door at night. That is her private area. By putting the flowers there, it makes it more personal than if you had left them on the kitchen table. It was not a a criminal offense but she has drawn boundry lines and is watching to see if you are going to step over them.

She thinks, regardless of what you say, you are there to win her back. Anything that she sees as a personal /intimate action will send her running. She enjoys your company,but I think it also confuses her and she is determined to go with her plans because she would have to take responsibility for her infidelity and her part in the destruction of the marraige.

Do you have plans for building your new home. I think it would be a good idea to start drawing them up or get some home plan magazines. Let her see,that you plan to move on. Obviously you have no plans to go out with other women while you are married, but I wonder what your wife would feel if you were on a dinner date with another woman such as a friend. Would that give her a wake up call in the sense that Jar is not going to sit and pine after me? She has made a point of leaving on the weekends and your guess is with OM. Then she comes home and notices, your haircut, outfit, asks whether you had dinner. Not really a fair play. Do you a friend that your wife is familiar with that can meet you at your home and you leave together for dinner? Don't provide an explanation unless she asks and you can honestly respond just a friend. . It also might give you a glimpse into how she really feels. If she says nothing and could care less then you know that she has moved on completly. Just a thought. It might answer some questions.

You are doing a great job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks for the feedback. I have been reading up on houses and architecture the last month or two. The books are lying around my room along with the pile of books I read these past 6 months about marriage. I am sure wife has noticed.

Tonight I went groceries shopping. When I got home wife saw me in the kitchen on the way back from the bathroom. I said hi and she went right to her room and closed the door. So I made my dinner and put my groceries away. I guess she needed some space.

Last night we took down the Christmas tree together and put away all the decorations around the house. She was a little bossy and didn’t have many patients. Tonight I cleaned the house it has been two weeks since it had been done. I did everything sweeping moping dusting etc. The house needed it. Wife came out of her room when I was cleaning one of the bathrooms and asked what you are doing. I responded cleaning the bathroom. She looked at me and said I was going to do that this weekend. I responded by saying I was un aware of your plans. The house needed to be cleaned and I wanted to get it done so I can relax the rest of the week. Wife’s OCD neat freak stuff has rubbed off on my over the years. She turned around and marched back up to her room and closed the door. She seemed annoyed or something that I was cleaning the house. Strange…The old jars solution to a dirty house was hire some one to clean.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I have been reading up on houses and architecture the last month or two. The books are lying around my room along with the pile of books I read these past 6 months about marriage. I am sure wife has noticed.
> 
> Tonight I went groceries shopping. When I got home wife saw me in the kitchen on the way back from the bathroom. I said hi and she went right to her room and closed the door. So I made my dinner and put my groceries away. I guess she needed some space.
> 
> Last night we took down the Christmas tree together and put away all the decorations around the house. She was a little bossy and didn’t have many patients. Tonight I cleaned the house it has been two weeks since it had been done. I did everything sweeping moping dusting etc. The house needed it. Wife came out of her room when I was cleaning one of the bathrooms and asked what you are doing. I responded cleaning the bathroom. She looked at me and said I was going to do that this weekend. I responded by saying I was un aware of your plans. The house needed to be cleaned and I wanted to get it done so I can relax the rest of the week. Wife’s OCD neat freak stuff has rubbed off on my over the years. She turned around and marched back up to her room and closed the door. She seemed annoyed or something that I was cleaning the house. Strange…The old jars solution to a dirty house was hire some one to clean.


First, I wanna say that I try not to give advice as I tend to just observe to gain insight on this subject and to see people overcome obstacles and I have to say that I'm glad to see how you're just going about your business to move on and I'm a big supporter of yours.

I don't give any advice as I have no experience in divorce but I do have a lot in annoying the hell out of people so question, how's your behavior towards her lately? Here's some of the things that I'm noticing.

The situation with the funeral: You asked to come pay your respect which says you're probably over the situation with her or, at the very least, don't think about it as much but you showed that you were still considerate to ask first as to not make a sad occasion worse with awkwardness. You gave her flowers, Tamara24 said that you invaded her private space. That could be true but do you know if the OM has done anything like that? Was he even at the funeral? 

The new books: This symbolizes a shift in your thought process, you went from books on fixing the marriage to fixing the home. In other words, you went from acting on emotion to acting on logic. 

Cleaning the house: You said that the old you wouldn't have done that. I assume from what you've said about her being a neat freak that she probably got on your case to clean during the marriage. Seeing you do this probably made her think "Now, he wants to?" Unless, of course, she just really likes cleaning. Could've been a way for her to deal with her grandmother passing.

Also, have you been indifferent to her lately? It sounds like you kinda are as you're just living life so you've probably haven't noticed it, I do that a lot unintentionally and that completely pisses people off, especially in an emotional situation. If this doesn't give you any insight on why you're annoying her, you can always ask her what the hell's her problem. It's not like she didn't want anything to do with you as a signifanct other or she wouldn't have cheated in the first place so you shouldn't be that annoyed with you for doing what you've gotta do?


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## jar

Misgueded

I am like you I don’t tend to post much advice on others threads. I do read them and keep up with them to gain insight in others situations.

I continue to act kind and gentle towards my wife. No yelling when we talk I pay attention. When she isn’t talkative or needs her space I leave her alone. 

I don’t think I am indifferent or ambivalent to her at this point. I notice lots a little things she says and does. I will admit I still have feelings for wife. I am just at a place of acceptance with the situation my wife is not perfect. I don’t let it bother me anymore. 

In the past I can honestly say that my behavior and feelings towards her were ambivalent.

The om was not at the funeral and did not send any flowers or cards as far as I know. I did notice wife has a few stuffed animals in her room. Maybe he got them for her.
I think wife chats with him on line and emails him more than anything at this point. Kind of hard to have a good relationship with some one if you don’t see the person or talk to them openly. I am of the opinion that texting, chatting, and email are bad mediums to communicate relationship stuff. It is easy to hide behind it.

I would say the act of cleaning my wife doesn’t like. But it bothers her more to have an unkept, unorganized, dirty house. It also bothers me know. In the past these sorts of things caused friction because I didn’t mind if the house was dirty or clean, organized or not. She harped on me a lot about my ability to make a mess and not pick up after my self.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Misgueded
> 
> I am like you I don’t tend to post much advice on others threads. I do read them and keep up with them to gain insight in others situations.
> 
> I continue to act kind and gentle towards my wife. No yelling when we talk I pay attention. When she isn’t talkative or needs her space I leave her alone.
> 
> I don’t think I am indifferent or ambivalent to her at this point. I notice lots a little things she says and does. I will admit I still have feelings for wife. I am just at a place of acceptance with the situation my wife is not perfect. I don’t let it bother me anymore.
> 
> In the past I can honestly say that my behavior and feelings towards her were ambivalent.
> 
> The om was not at the funeral and did not send any flowers or cards as far as I know. I did notice wife has a few stuffed animals in her room. Maybe he got them for her.
> I think wife chats with him on line and emails him more than anything at this point. Kind of hard to have a good relationship with some one if you don’t see the person or talk to them openly. I am of the opinion that texting, chatting, and email are bad mediums to communicate relationship stuff. It is easy to hide behind it.
> 
> I would say the act of cleaning my wife doesn’t like. But it bothers her more to have an unkept, unorganized, dirty house. It also bothers me know. In the past these sorts of things caused friction because I didn’t mind if the house was dirty or clean, organized or not. She harped on me a lot about my ability to make a mess and not pick up after my self.


That's cool, brother. You're right about texting, etc. I think it's a way to keep from communicating. I'm going to be 26 this month but I consider myself pretty old school as I don't want to text, I never know what people really mean in a text. It's funny that I'm saying that on a forum.

I wouldn't break from the path you're on as it seems to be working for you but, the next time she gets a little chippy with you, I'd politely ask her why without pressuring or anything like that because she seems to be upset at you for living. Now, I know what that's like and you'd be surprised at the answer that some people give. Someone once told me that they hate my non-chalant attitude and indifference because I just seem like I'm "cool" about everything. I was surprised as I've never considered myself one of the "cool guys," I just don't let things get to me as much. If you're not comfortable with asking her, or if you think it'll do more harm than good, don't but you'd be surprised.

Remember, I'm a master at pissing people off unintentionally.


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## jar

Nothing to new to report with my sitaiton. Wife does her thing I do my thing. Some times we talk and interact some times we do not.

Wife goes through an interesting cycle. We are on about the third cycle since I have been home. She get extremely withdrawn where she cant even speak or hardly look at me and spends most of her time in her room alone with the door locked. She looks completely tormented.

Few days later she snaps out of it and is fine. When she comes two for the most part she is very nice and we will spend the evening having some conversation and watching tv together. We both stayed home from work the other day due to snow and we hung out most of the day watching movies.

Usually when she snaps out of this withdraw is when she makes plans to see the other man. Wife was really withdrawn for about a week this time. She snapped out of it on Monday. I believe she made last minute plans to see OM. She left this morning to go spend a long weekend with him. I am only speculating but I over heard her telling her mom she was going down to some place this weekend.

After Monday of this week wife was very talkative. Last night she even taught me how to make waffles. 

Wife also wants to have another conversation about splitting our stuff up next week when she gets back. She was talking to me last night about how expensive her lawyer is and how she nickel and dimes her for every email and phone call.

House has been for sale for 4 months now with not a single viewing. Today realtor called and wants to setup a viewing for Monday. I have no interest in selling at the moment it is winter and I just moved back home again and have been really enjoying being home. 

Next week should be interesting.

JAR


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## Affaircare

JAR--have you considered the option of keeping your home and refinancing to buy out your wife? The biggest issue there would no doubt be that she'd say "Well houses in this area are worth $200k+" (or whatever) and yet it hasn't even been VIEWED at whatever price you two set! So clearly the price you set is not the price at which it would sell!!!

My point is that if you decide you love your house, maybe you can buy her out and use some realty reports to show what it would actually sell at..then [her half of sell price - her half of the mortgage = buy out wife amount]. Make an offer that's reasonable to both of you and you can keep the house.! Shoot in this economy I'd be surprised if it wasn't upside down (i.e, bought if/mortgage = $230k, sell price = $200k) in which case if you take it over from her, you'd be doing her a huge favor removing $15k of debt! On the other hand, if it would sell for $230k, and mortgage is $200k, then wife buyout would be $15k. See if you can refinance or do a second for that, buy her out, and you keep the house!

So see what I mean? 

Regarding her cycles and doing her own thing, that's cool. As time goes by and you're right there, she'll be able to see you're not really the "evil person" she painted you as--just as you can see that she's not really the perfect wife you envision her as when you two are apart! Either she'll decide to honor her vows or not, and if not, you have been the man you were intended to be so you can be proud of yourself. 

Regarding talking about splitting up your stuff, divorce, etc. I would recommend something like "<Wife> I still do not want to divorce you. If you want to divorce, you will have to take the lead and divorce me and I can not stop you. Thus, I do not have a proposal for how to split our stuff because I want to reconcile. I also don't intend to be taken advantage of, though, so if you do have a proposal, I'm willing to look it over." It sounds like for the most part she's being fairly reasonable with how to split things (as in, not trying to take you to the cleaners), and if she shows you a proposal that you can look at, not really want but it's not bad, show your lawyer...make a suggestion or two...and let her know if she wants to file it you won't put up a spiteful fight. Does that make sense? You can not stop her, but I think her fear is that it will turn to vitriol and spite and costly "lawyering up." If it's reasonable, and no of course it's not what you want but she's split it fairly, then just let her know you don't want to do a co-signer method, but you won't fight her...it's fair enough that you'll live with it and just move on with your life.


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## OhGeesh

Still following your story JAR!! Stay focused on what you want out of life and what it will take for you to get there.

Ironically I was giving some on site training yesterday and one of the guys who was to come was divorced recently. I've shared his story before his wife left him for a "better lifestyle" upper management type well into the 6 figure salary....... more money pretty much etc etc.

Well, this guy.... he has lost 20 lbs has a true 6 pack now is in really awesome shape. I told him Awesome adn that he looks great....he's in better shape then me now :-( I need to get some discipline back!!

He said he hasn't had this much fun since he was 20 he is 41 now. He doesn't look a day over 35 though really good genetics, so he has that going for him. He has had great success on Match.com he swears by it!! Granted he said at times he is driving 50-60 miles to go on these dates.....he also said the "supply" seems endless.....he's a little on the gigolo side right now.

He goes on dates every weekend and is having a blast. He was showing me pics on his phone some of these women all were attractive to very very attractive most younger than him 28-34 nurses, a physical therapist, a beautician, personal trainer, all the way to the "cougar" side a retired doctor....!! My point is there are tons of successful beautiful women looking for a someone to share life with and just have fun with. Many more fish in the see JAR trust me!!


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## jar

Truth is this is our first home and we have almost no equity built up in the house. Also neither one of us can afford the house on our own. The monthly expenses are just a little too much for one of us to afford.

I have read the split up agreement that was drafted. It isn’t unreasonable. I just don’t want to even talk bout this stuff. I am trying to delay divorce until spring….

My plan for the future doesn’t include me living in the house alone. I want to build a little place of my own. I have been researching architecture and home plans pretty hard for about 2 months now. 
I realize that just because some one is coming to look doesn’t mean anything is going to happen with a sale.

It is tough to explain I feel like I am just getting back to life and I want planning on dealing with this stuff till spring. Also I am trying to do my best to continue a Plan A 180 work on JAR thing.

OhGeesh 

I do know that there are plenty of fish in the sea. I have browsed match. A few friends and even my brother have used it. They meet beautiful woman all time. It is very tempting. I am lonely
I am still of the mentality I am going to stay committed and faithful to my vows and honor my marriage to the best of my ability. Trying to love unconditionally with nothing in return.

I have started working out again and have been eating a very lean diet. I felt like it was the next thing in life I needed to address. Plus I got to get ready for boating season.

Wife has actually been doing the same thing. I mentioned this is something we could work on together especially the nutrition part. It is a whole new learning thing for me.

This weekend I have a lot going on. I am really excited about tomorrow I am going to go to mass with my good friend and his family. In the afternoon I am volunteering for a few hours at a place that rehabilitees birds of pray for release into the wild. They have a bald eagle right now. I am volunteering with one of my coworkers. I am hoping to get some really good pictures and make this volunteering thing something I do a few times a month. Oh and my coworker is a female that is my age and married. But wife doesn’t know that 

I heard from wife. She actually asked me to get the whole house ready for the viewing on Monday by myself. I responded by saying we need to reschedule by later in the week. So we can both work on it together. She must think I am sitting here all by myself this weekend.


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## tamara24

Jar,

There is nothing like the green eyed monster to raise feelings that someone might have forgotten was there,but be leary of the green eyed monster as it can cause fights and more trouble so keep it on the safe side or even if you swore you never touched the woman cause you were staying true to your vows,wife will never believe you.

Your doing great job, I know it is lonely. But just imagine when you finally do find that. Direction in life you choose to go, you won't have all this clutter in your life cause you have already done the work.

Stay on task,focus on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

tamara24 said:


> Jar, There is nothing like the green eyed monster to raise feelings that someone might have forgotten was there,but be leary of the green eyed monster as it can cause fights and more trouble so keep it on the safe side or even if you swore you never touched the woman cause you were staying true to your vows,wife will never believe you.


If she has anything left invested in your relationship, I can pretty much guarantee that she won't believe you. I've seen it time and time again, her train of thought's going to be "I've done it to him, why wouldn't he do it to me?" That's one reason that I wouldn't try to save things, we can be friends afterward but, even if she comes back, human nature dictates that she'll always be on guard for the big payback. 

Bottom line, I'd just keep at whatever those that are more versed in the overall situation are tell you. This was just my input on that scenario.


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## Lazarus

This woman loves you Jar but the problem is her deep unhappiness prior to the break up..her depressive slump and misery for a long time. I think she sees you as totally associated to that and she is wary, very wary. 

The loving wife returns sometimes...I see that in your posts. She's afraid and with the OM in the background that's poison in your situation. In everyone's situation when there is an OP involved. Their interests are paramount. Crazy really. They smooch their way in and then look after their best interests. If she was truly on her own this wouldn't be as difficult. 

The OM romanced her when she was vulnerable. That's easy. Now it is a case of you trying to romance your wife back into your arms but with harmful baggage (recent history) and OM in the background. Not easy! Recreating what you can offer in the future may be the way out of this. It's all a gamble.

I worry for you as you could destroy YOU in this process. You are a good man (now respectful) but as often happens, we try to preserve ourselves and withdrawn in relationships and fail to understand the fallout till it is sometimes too late. But is it too late here? I think not. I suspect you were the selfish one initially and now your wife is interest very much into 'Me' and her wants and needs. 

AffairCare offers great advice. He lost and wants to save others. Isn't that wonderful? 

What's the solution? I'm not sure. Pulling back a little and looking at what your future plans could offer your wife to bring back her joie de vivire could be the answer.

It's easy to give up and look for others and start all over again but further down the line sometimes the same issues or similar surface. You've both invested time. This woman doesn't hate you, there is still respect there she seems to care for you but associates you with too much pain and harm. I wonder if all those who have an affair need help from their betrayed partners. The affair being a cry for help when it's too late. Infidelity is the most personal of personal injuries. The Betrayed need to recover and that takes a long time. 1 month for each year of the relationship at a minimum apparently.

Perhaps making Mrs JAR see what life and fun could be like again with you might help - the jeep ride was fun. Perhaps more ways to recreate it with plans on the new property, new area... It's the fun times that need to be recreated...or at least a vision of that in amongst the misery.


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## Lazarus

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I've seen it time and time again, her train of thought's going to be "I've done it to him, why wouldn't he do it to me?" That's one reason that I wouldn't try to save things, we can be friends afterward but, even if she comes back, human nature dictates that she'll always be on guard for the big payback.


Perhaps the way for couples to diffuse this worry is too put in place a legal agreement to say that if one or both of the parties cheat they agree to forfeit their assets? That may put such a fear (and future risk) on a level playing field, surely? 

It may force both parties to be respectful of each other, and facility the need in future for them to sit down and discuss if they want out simply because they will loose everything. 

The current arrangement is bad enough financially for both the Jars. So much too loose, including the love of one's life in the case of Mr Jar. That's Jar's situation as I see it.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Lazarus said:


> Perhaps the way for couples to diffuse this worry is too put in place a legal agreement to say that if one or both of the parties cheat they agree to forfeit their assets? That may put such a fear (and future risk) on a level playing field, surely?
> 
> It may force both parties to be respectful of each other, and facility the need in future for them to sit down and discuss if they want out simply because they will loose everything.
> 
> The current arrangement is bad enough financially for both the Jars. So much too loose, including the love of one's life in the case of Mr Jar. That's Jar's situation as I see it.


Now, see? I don't like that. I don't think love should have stipulations except in her case, she lost the right to Jar's unconditional love the moment she betrayed it which is why I agree with the boundaries in the reconciliation but this is just too much. It becomes a case of I'm not going to cheat not because I love my spouse but because it would be a bad financial move. Not that I don't understand and respect what you're saying.


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## 8yearscheating

Jar - I've read through your thread and just want to say you should be proud of what you have been doing to work back towards R. You have done everything possible. If it doesn't work out you should consider this and walk away proud. Reading your thread had made me extremely thankful my WS turned around as quickly as she did. I don't think I could have held on as you as you have.
I hope and pray it works out for you. Good luck!


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## jar

Hey Guys

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I have continued to take care of my self. I try and deposit a few love units when the opportunity arises.

I have been exploring my spiritual sided lately. I have been reading about love and marriage from more of a religious spiritual standpoint. I have also been spending some time going to church as well. This is an aspect of my life that I have had very mixed point of view most of my life. 

When wife and I do interact often times she brings up something negative or says something that is a little hurtful. Last night it was more talk about splitting up possessions. Tomorrow night we are suppose to have the big talk. These sorts of things trigger all kinds of negative thoughts and feelings for me. A lot of days I remember the bad instead of the good about my wife. I thought I was at a place where I had forgiven my wife for the past and moved on. I have realized I am not there yet. I am also trying my best to continue to love her unconditionally during this time. It is a struggle.

This morning she blew up at me and had a tempertantram. I got up cooked my self some breakfast. Took a shower and got ready. I returned to the kitchen and began making my lunch. Wife came into the kitchen to-do the same. She freaked out because I had some nasty dishes in the sink. Something about how I always leave my dishes in the sink and it stains it and she has to always scrub the sink out. It is a white sink. I do my dishes after I make my lunch.

I think she is remembering the past. Since I have returned home I always do all my dishes immediately after using them. I also make sure they re dried and put away as well. Often I am doing her dishes and putting them away as well. Wife was so frustrated over nothing.

Instead of yelling at her back I told her that I didn’t know that this was a problem and that I would be more consciences of the problem.

Monday wife returned from seeing the OM sometime while I was at work. I left a note saying that I would be willing to clean and organize the upstairs if she could do the downstairs. When I returned home Monday night everything was done. I thanked her enthusiastically for her hard work. She was rather snippy with me. Say I had to do this and that. I want this house sold. I have to do this. 

Last night I returned home and I found wife snow blowing the drive way and chipping away ice on the drive way. She had already been out there two times since I had gotten home. She felt the driveway was a mess because it was not perfectly clean down to black top. It’s the middle of winter that won’t happen till spring. I did help her until she gave up.

It must be tuff living this way being frustrated over these little things. 

So that is jars life these days.

JAR


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## turnera

Sucks to get what you want, doesn't it?

Best to just stay out of her way while she implodes.

Though, I would suggest you stop being so accommodating to her. If she's wrong about something, say so. No one benefits when you give in just to keep the peace. How can she learn and grow if you agree with her when she's wrong?


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## Affaircare

> This morning she blew up at me and had a tempertantram. I got up cooked my self some breakfast. Took a shower and got ready. I returned to the kitchen and began making my lunch. Wife came into the kitchen to-do the same. She freaked out because I had some nasty dishes in the sink. Something about how I always leave my dishes in the sink and it stains it and she has to always scrub the sink out. It is a white sink. I do my dishes after I make my lunch.
> 
> I think she is remembering the past. Since I have returned home I always do all my dishes immediately after using them. I also make sure they re dried and put away as well. Often I am doing her dishes and putting them away as well. Wife was so frustrated over nothing.


You know, JAR, it would be appropriate for her to request that you do your dishes so it doesn't stain the sink, but it is NOT appropriate for her to "freak out" and "have a temper tantrum" at you about that. If I were you, I believe I'd recommend a statement like: 

"*When you* freak out and have a temper tantrum rather than making a respectful request
*I think* your behavior is inappropriate and I will not be treated that way
*I feel* defensive and feel like opposing you rather than working it out together
*So I'm going to request* that if you can not speak to me in a respectful tone that you go to another room until you can calm down. If you attack me again rather than requesting I will go to my room and lock the door until you can speak to me wit respect. I choose not to be with someone who's demanding."

See what I mean? Name her behavior, call it what it is, and let her know you won't be treated that way--if that's her only way of treating you, you'll go away (to your room).



> ... She was rather snippy with me. " I had to do this and that. I want this house sold. I have to do this." ...wife snow blowing the drive way and chipping away ice on the drive way. She had already been out there two times since I had gotten home. She felt the driveway was a mess because it was not perfectly clean down to black top.
> 
> It must be tuff living this way being frustrated over these little things.


Again, I think I would recommend naming her behavior right out loud and calling her on it...and indicating you won't be treated like that (especially by someone who's divorcing you!). For example: 

"*When you* snip at me about your choice to clean the house because we both had plans the weekend
*I think* I would have been willing to help and gave you options that would have worked for me
*I feel* angry and a little callous that you made the choice to do it all, so don't yell at me over your choice
*So I'm going to request* that if you want my help, I would be very happy to work together with you in a way that is MUTUALLY satisfactory to both of us, not just you. I won't be dictated to, and I am more than willing to take into consideration what works for you. What I ask is to have that same courtesy returned."

P.S. In case you missed it...you would be AMAZED how often that W-T-F-S format is good to use.


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## OhGeesh

Dude I just read this again I still think your sort of nuts for doing what you're doing. 

*Wife is seeing someone whoever OM or O-men.

*She's clearly focusing 100% on herself

*Chatty you're there for her and when she isn't chatty you are still there for her.

*She still wants a divorce like NOW House sold like NOW! And you are thinking about being nice, cordial, and steadfast.

Your ability to stay and still say things like "love deposits", "thanking her alot", "making her lunch/dinner"......just floor me.

There is just noway I could do this for as long as you have. If it were me I would be on every dating site going out enjoying life etc. That stuff works in the biggest way! You keep saying you are enjoying life maybe I'm co-dependent on a woman for happiness, but I just couldn't do it I would be on the town end of story.

Not still trying to look for openings to make it work with her especially with all of the BS you are dealing with. 

You're a oak or slightly off kilter to do what you are doing. I guess kudos are in order though, but I still think you would happier if you moved on. Who knows it might invoke something in your wife once she sees you are truly leaving, dating, and going out not just going to church, library, cooking, or whatever you are doing focusing on "JAR".

If not in reconciliation maybe in other ways like actually being nice to you.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

OhGeesh said:


> Dude I just read this again I still think your sort of nuts for doing what you're doing.
> 
> *Wife is seeing someone whoever OM or O-men.
> 
> *She's clearly focusing 100% on herself
> 
> *Chatty you're there for her and when she isn't chatty you are still there for her.
> 
> *She still wants a divorce like NOW House sold like NOW! And you are thinking about being nice, cordial, and steadfast.
> 
> Your ability to stay and still say things like "love deposits", "thanking her alot", "making her lunch/dinner"......just floor me.
> 
> There is just noway I could do this for as long as you have. If it were me I would be on every dating site going out enjoying life etc. That stuff works in the biggest way! You keep saying you are enjoying life maybe I'm co-dependent on a woman for happiness, but I just couldn't do it I would be on the town end of story.
> 
> Not still trying to look for openings to make it work with her especially with all of the BS you are dealing with.
> 
> You're a oak or slightly off kilter to do what you are doing. I guess kudos are in order though, but I still think you would happier if you moved on. Who knows it might invoke something in your wife once she sees you are truly leaving, dating, and going out not just going to church, library, cooking, or whatever you are doing focusing on "JAR".
> 
> If not in reconciliation maybe in other ways like actually being nice to you.


Big brother Jar, I gotta agree with OhGeesh because all she's doing is bullying you when you get down to it. I understand what you've been trying to do but maybe it's time for a change in approach. I see two options:

1. Let her know who the man is, tell her that you're not going to take her crap anymore. I mean, she cheated on you and brought everything to this point and you've still respected her. Let her know, if she can't treat you like the man you are then she needs to check herself before you have to. Who knows, you may just turn her back on if you beat your chest a little bit.

2. I always say that real men don't quit, we get ran out of town and that's what she's trying to do, run you out of town. I say find a way to fall out of love with this nutjob and skip town on her as fast as you can. Let him deal with this, you don't deserve it. With you gone, she just may see the light because any man that would snake another man's wife can't be as good as she's making him out to be. You leaving means that he's going to have to fill your shoes like she wants him to and then we'll see how he measures up. I guarantee you that he's not up to the task and will likely give her a taste of her own medicine but maybe she needs to see that first hand. 

I think I figured out why I comment on your posts so much, I kinda feel a personal stake in this, you kinda remind me of me. If I was going to try and save the marriage, and that's a big if, I'd probably be going about it just as you are but no one's going to bully me or b!tch me out for no reason. Just do whatever you gotta do to keep living righteously and leave her and him eating your dust, brother.


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## Affaircare

Misguided and JAR, 

I think part of JAR's personal growing has been to learn how to see her put-downs and attacks as what they are, namely her blaming someone else for her choices. Cleaning for the Monday viewing is a perfect example. SHE chose to be away the weekend before the viewing, not JAR. SHE assumed he had nothing else to do--so she can be gone but he can't. SHE did not respectfully ask him if he could clean... she *demanded* it (in the sense that he had no option to say "no"...it was her way or anger). SHE came home from her weekend choices and decided to do all the cleaning. SHE decided to do it all by herself. And yet after making all those choices, does she take personal responsibility and go to JAR and say "I decided to do this but I need you to know I felt put out and taken advantage of..." Nope. She blamed HIM for HER OWN choices. I believe this has been a pattern for a while, and at first JAR didn't even see it. Now he does see it but still doesn't speak up and call it what it is--in a healthy way. So it's a learning process but we're getting there. 



> 1. Let her know who the man is, tell her that you're not going to take her crap anymore. I mean, she cheated on you and brought everything to this point and you've still respected her. Let her know, if she can't treat you like the man you are then she needs to check herself before you have to. Who knows, you may just turn her back on if you beat your chest a little bit.


This is a possibly good suggestion, but I think where lots of male people go off track a little. It is one thing to name what she's doing, say it's not okay with you, state your boundaries and stick to what you will and will not accept--and it's another to try to control someone else or just be abusive back. Thus, I'd encourage JAR to be honest and speak up; I'm not sure I'd encourage him to "be a man" and "pound his chest" and tell her he won't put up with her [email protected] Even if he were being assertive, it seems to be that isn't JAR's personal style. 

Usually people swing from one end of the spectrum (mousy) to the other (attacker angry), and where we want to be for honest but healthy relationships is in the middle: honestly call it what it is and be assertive with your own boundaries. Like you said Misguided, I'd encourage him to speak out loud. When she's being snippy due to her own choices, just say "You made the choice to do that, not me, and I am not willing to take either your anger or the blame for your choice. When you can speak to me respectfully please do--I'll be <location>" and then turn and walk away from her. There really is no need to "take" her bad behavior. Just name it, say you will not be treated like that, and go to another room or place. 



> 2. I always say that real men don't quit, we get ran out of town and that's what she's trying to do, run you out of town. I say find a way to fall out of love with this nutjob and skip town on her as fast as you can. Let him deal with this, you don't deserve it. With you gone, she just may see the light because any man that would snake another man's wife can't be as good as she's making him out to be. You leaving means that he's going to have to fill your shoes like she wants him to and then we'll see how he measures up. I guarantee you that he's not up to the task and will likely give her a taste of her own medicine but maybe she needs to see that first hand.


I think the main issue is that JAR's wife seems to want to hold others responsible for her--her feelings, her choices etc. Thus as JAR grows and doesn't do that, and the OM is still of the unhealthy behavior that it *is* his fault or he *does* owe her that, they may be symbiotic in their dysfunction. BUT part of the issue here, I think, is that JAR likes his house and doesn't particularly want to leave it whereas his wife claims to have never liked the house. Thus, it seems common sense to me, to let her leave if she wants to be away from JAR. She can always go live with the OM after all! Personally, I think she wants the freedom to be married but "do what she wants" without the responsibility of living up to her side of the marriage. So she's secure there and she can blame JAR rather than having to face herself...who would want to leave? She has it made there!


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## jar

Hey guys

I have really taken you points and sentiments in. Like affair care said these out burst and blaming thing is something I never noticed before until I returned home.

Wife and I haven’t seen each other to much this week. Wife didn’t get home last night until 10:30 and I was busy working out when she got home. Interesting she can make a cake and buy a gift for her work friend whom she is not that close to and not me. 

Tonight is the big discussion about splitting things up. She has already texted me asking me if we are on for tonight. I plan to be civil and not have any kind of emotional outburst. I am expecting wife will have a tantrum.

I do plan to start the conversation and talk about the tantrum at the kitchen sink from the other morning. I also plan to probe around about when she plans to move out. I don’t see her taking any action to move out yet. I also plan to let her know that I don’t want this divorce and that I don’t want to have this conversation.

Affair care you are right the reason I moved home is because this is where I want to be and I have been really enjoying being home for the past several weeks. It feels right.

I am going to show my cards a little tonight when it comes to the possessions on what I agree and disagree on. A few things I can’t bend on is the custody of the dog, wife wants the wedding china I want it sold and the money split or donated. I don’t think it is ok to be serving meals to her new family off of our china. I am also going to ask for her engagement ring back…I imagine this is going to make her go nuts. The ring is very special I designed the ring my self and had a little hole in the wall jeweler make the ring by hand basically from scratch. Like I said it is very special ring to us both and I would like to have it back. I am expecting tonight to get pretty emotional but I think I am ready to talk about this even know I don’t want to talk about it.

Afaircare with me being home wife is getting the best of both worlds in a way. There is some cake eating going on in the situation. Wife does not have the burden of the house and dog on her shoulders anymore. The things that I do around the house I still ask my self am I doing this for me or the wife. Almost every time the answer is for me. For instance that is why I didn’t stay home last weekend and clean the house. If I had it would have been for the wife. I am not ready to sell yet. From what the realtor told us about the buyer our house was priced about 30% more than what the buyers could afford.

Not too much with my wife really gets to me any more. My love bank is getting really empty and I am guarding with a lock and key. Something the books worn of is when this happens you tend to think more negatively about your spouse. I am getting to this point. When I think of her lately it is mostly negative thoughts. 

I am still hopping for a miracle and a breakthrough for our marriage. I don’t think she will come around before it’s too late.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> Tonight is the big discussion about splitting things up. She has already texted me asking me if we are on for tonight. I plan to be civil and not have any kind of emotional outburst. I am expecting wife will have a tantrum.


I agree I expect she will try to play that card, as it has somewhat worked for her in the past. I would recommend, before you do anything or say anything, that you try to look at it from a 3rd party point of view and ask, "Is this a tactic that has worked for her before?" She'll likely try to push whatever buttons she can push in order to get her way, so be aware of that and sidestep it. When she says something specifically to hurt you and make you lash out, just tell her "I realize that has worked for you in the past, but I choose to not let that work on me anymore. I will speak to you with respect and I expect the same from you and nothing less." 



> I do plan to start the conversation and talk about the tantrum at the kitchen sink from the other morning. I also plan to probe around about when she plans to move out. I don’t see her taking any action to move out yet. I also plan to let her know that I don’t want this divorce and that I don’t want to have this conversation.


May I suggest that you consider that having this conversation may be a little bit like getting shots at the doctor's office. NO ONE wants to have a needle stuck in them, but you do it to prevent something even worse. So rather than avoiding the conversation, maybe work on yourself so your ready to discuss it and break it up into more manageable pieces. 



> I am going to show my cards a little tonight when it comes to the possessions on what I agree and disagree on. A few things I can’t bend on is the custody of the dog, wife wants the wedding china I want it sold and the money split or donated. I don’t think it is ok to be serving meals to her new family off of our china. I am also going to ask for her engagement ring back…I imagine this is going to make her go nuts. The ring is very special I designed the ring my self and had a little hole in the wall jeweler make the ring by hand basically from scratch. Like I said it is very special ring to us both and I would like to have it back. I am expecting tonight to get pretty emotional but I think I am ready to talk about this even know I don’t want to talk about it.


Again, may I make a few suggestions? Here is the fact, JAR: if you two do divorce, you will BOTH lose things that are dear to you. She will very likely make a proposal in which she has no losses and then be very inflexible, but for you, I would suggest that you let your mind actually consider what it would be like to lose some of the things that you say you want. For example, I understand you love the dog dearly, but if the dog were killed some other way today, you would be able to live on. Yes, you would be sad and mourn the loss of a companion, but see what I mean? YOU could deal with it and move on. Same with the china. I understand your thought that it's not cool for her to "serve guests" on china that was meant for the two of you, and I do like your idea about selling it and splitting the proceeds...but you do realize that it will be priced at "garage sale" pricing (not the value of the china itself) and split at that cost, right? Maybe you could negotiate "I get the ring, you get the china--neither one of us gets ALL that we want but we both get one thing we want." My point is not to talk you out of your items but rather to prepare you for what you may or may not lose--how would you survive if the judge said "She gets the dog, the china, and the ring" ? Let your mind go there and don't avoid it, okay? 

And btw--I'd let her have the ring in exchange for the dog. I get it, it was a "personal" ring--but let her keep it as a reminder of what you went through for her. Let her deal with having to take it to a jeweler to rebuild it...and get a faithful companion in exchange.  That's just me. 



> Not too much with my wife really gets to me any more. My love bank is getting really empty and I am guarding with a lock and key. Something the books worn of is when this happens you tend to think more negatively about your spouse. I am getting to this point. When I think of her lately it is mostly negative thoughts.
> 
> I am still hopping for a miracle and a breakthrough for our marriage. I don’t think she will come around before it’s too late.


Well while there is life, there is hope, but at this point she'd have to have a pretty major, life-changing "AH HA" moment and willingness to deal with herself. I'm not sure I realistically see that coming. BUT the good news is that while you are there, I think it's good for you to begin to see that yep...you made your mistakes, but you dealt with them and changed yourself to become a better man. When you were gone, I think you were tending to "idolize" her in a way rather than seeing that it really wasn't YOU who was responsible for everything. Now that you're right there, with her, you can see it "up close and personal" that some of the issues are on her side of the street. You two COULD fix them, but it would require BOTH of you committing to actually doing the work necessary to fix yourself and fix the marriage. At this point, she refuses...and that's her choice. Pretty soon now (probably starting tonight) she'll start to see that HER CHOICE is going to cost her--maybe in her credit score!--and I suspect she will not like that one little bit.


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## turnera

How did it go?


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## jar

Tonight was one of the most intense nights of my life. Tonight we were to talk about splitting up possessions. I started by saying I don’t want to have this conversation and I don’t want a divorce. I said this 100% your choice. Maybe this wasn’t a good opening line.

Wife asked me if I am going to fight her and argue with every little thing. I told her I planned to agree to things that I am ok with and the things I am not ok with I am not just going to go along with.

Wife said that is not what I mean. She said are you going to fight me about signing on the dotted line. I told wife I have no plans of signing any sort of agreement immediately to night or tomorrow or even next week.

At that point wife raised her voice and started going crazy. Saying I don’t love you , I want a divorce, I want out. Pretty mean and hurtful things. I asked my wife to calm down for a second so I can talk. I told her it is not ok for her to have an out burst and say mean and hurtful things to me. She piped up and said I can say what ever I want. I interrupted her and said it is not ok because when you have an out burst I began to shut down and go into argument/defend my self mode. So I would respectfully I ask that you not do this. She really started to rant and rave at this point about how much she hates me and how much she wants out of this marriage and how I make her feel crazy and tense and depressed etc. She was really in full tantrum at this point. I told her it is not ok for her to speak to me this way. I then told her that we could continue talking about this in a few days once we both could cool down. She really got going on how she wants to divorce me and how upset she is that I won’t just go along with it. How I want to take this to court and how I want to bankrupt us. That it is my fault for her being trapped in this marriage and it is my fault for this and that. I said wife I am not going to be spoken to this way. I said you are blaming me for your feelings and not taking responsibility for your own feelings. I am not the one making you feel this way you are making the choice to feel this way on your own. She went into lunatic crazy at this point. Really started screaming and crying about divorce. About how come I wont divorce her. How it is my fault she is trapped and again she started saying things like you make me crazy. I hate you. It is your fault I feel this way. I told her again you see you are blaming me for your feelings. She said stop it with your calm voice and your psycho babble stuff. She went even more into a tirade this time. Again same sorts of things were said. I just repeated I am not having this conversation with you when you are like this and that I am going to head up to my room. She actually blocked the door way and said know your not. She wouldn’t get out of my way what so ever. She started in on the I don’t love you. I have been miserable because of you for the past 4 years. Why won’t you divorce me now? I can’t get out of hear until you divorce me etc. I told her you don’t need my help to get divorced. I told her you can leave any time I am not stopping you. I haven’t asked you to stay. I told her I don’t agree in this divorce and it is something I do not want in any way. I then asked her to get out of my way again. She wouldn’t move so I walked over to a different part of the room and said I am done speaking at this point. She moved I went to the kitchen and she blocked the door again. She went into another fit saying the same thing. Mostly mean hurtful things. She moved out of the door again I headed up to my room. She followed me up there and sat on my bed and said I am not moving. Again she was hysterical she wanted an explanation of why I wont divorce her right now and if I truly loved her I would divorce her. I said you know that’s not true. I then asked her to please excuse her self from my room. She said this is my house to and I don’t have to leave. I told her this is true. However I have been very respectful about her room and her private space and I am asking her to do the same for me. I again repeated we could talk about possessions again at another time but I am not speaking to you about this any more tonight.

Now this is where things got a little weird. She screams at me. You don’t think I notice you are trying to get me back and that is why I moved home. I told her why I moved home again. Some where in the blur of all of this. She brought up some of the past. She told me it is my fault the house is always messy and dirty and pointed to my room. She told me I it is my fault the sink has stains in it. She says I want nothing you can have it all. I will give you the dog if you divorce me. I want a divorce. At this point she has another out burst and says the following. You never would wear contacts before or even hear of it now the eye doctor calls and leaves a message saying they are ready to pick up. Little does she know I ordered them so I don’t need to wear glasses while boating, skiing, snowmobiling, etc. She says you never use to eat healthy or work out now you do. She says what’s with all the books in your room you never use to read let alone all those marriage books. There were a few other things in there as well but I can’t remember them at this point. I told her I came to the conclusion that my life want very balanced in the past and that I am making efforts to change that. I was living all wrong.

So tonight’s story ends with me typing this in my room with the door closed. I never close the door. Wife spent about 30 min crying and in hysterics in her room. I got up a few minutes ago to use the bath room and found the picture of the dog I gave wife for Christmas leaning up against the door. She had it hanging in her room.

She also sent me a text saying the following.

I am sorry I went crazy we are at two different ends of the specra. It is hard to see the other side. If we need to take baby steps I will work hard to respect that. This is what I want and if I work on seeing things from your side I would appreciate you trying to do the same.

What a crazy roller coaster. ..I am doing ok and felt I stood my ground and stayed calm as best I could through this whole night while being as respectful as possible. 

What a stupid argument…..
JAR


----------



## jar

She even got going about how I am not allowed to contact her family any longer. No cards b day present etc. I am not allowed to contact my nieces or buy them gifts for there birthday next week. She told me her sister and I have this weird little thing going on behind her back. I asked hey what if they contact me. She said don’t worry they wont I will take care of that. Her sis says hi to me every now and again on face book we never talk about wife. These comments got to me some.


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## turnera

Wow, you survived! 

She's mad because you are NOW becoming the man she would have chosen before, and maybe not cheated on.

And all the other jazz...

So anyway, now you see that staying calm IS the way to go. Good job.

As weird as it seems, I DO see some sort of hope for your marriage...


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## turnera

jar said:


> She even got going about how I am not allowed to contact her family any longer. No cards b day present etc. I am not allowed to contact my nieces or buy them gifts for there birthday next week. She told me her sister and I have this weird little thing going on behind her back. I asked hey what if they contact me. She said don’t worry they wont I will take care of that. Her sis says hi to me every now and again on face book we never talk about wife. These comments got to me some.


 Um...does she have legal control over who you speak to? I don't think so.

Just ignore her babble. If you want to stay in contact with them, go to them in honesty and tell them what's going on and tell them you really want to stay close to them, you consider them you're family. They will respect that.


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## land2634

You did great. The fact that she noticed how calm you were really got to her, and I would guess is the reason she eventually calmed down and sent you that text.

As far as who you contact, I agree with Turnera. If her family wants to maintain contact with you, by all means, continue. The fact that she notices all these changes speaks volumes. That probably makes her feel angry more than anything, wondering where that Jar was before. You've done well in explaining the changes you've made to this point. Keep it up, and regardless of the result, you're a better man for it.


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## OhGeesh

:scratchhead:

Seems like she wants out to me you don't think so?

I'll be devils advocate and say for whatever reason JAR she seems like she has some huge resentments towards you. While she now may like the JAR she sees it still pisses her off. 

You were this, that, and the other before (the past 4+ years) and now you are reading, exercising, being clean, almost as if she thinks it's all stage to try to get her back. To me it seems like no matter what you do she doesn't like you let alone love you...........major resentments for whatever reason. 

A extreme example is the beligerent alcoholic that can't stay sober and then suddenly changes......for many it's little too late. The love is gone the relationship broken.

I say let her go! Move on with someone who only knows the new improved version of you. I know I'm in the minority when I say that I don't get how this get's fixed so much as happened and she shows no signs of wanting it to go that route!!


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Affaircare said:


> Misguided and JAR,
> 
> I think part of JAR's personal growing has been to learn how to see her put-downs and attacks as what they are, namely her blaming someone else for her choices. Cleaning for the Monday viewing is a perfect example. SHE chose to be away the weekend before the viewing, not JAR. SHE assumed he had nothing else to do--so she can be gone but he can't. SHE did not respectfully ask him if he could clean... she *demanded* it (in the sense that he had no option to say "no"...it was her way or anger). SHE came home from her weekend choices and decided to do all the cleaning. SHE decided to do it all by herself. And yet after making all those choices, does she take personal responsibility and go to JAR and say "I decided to do this but I need you to know I felt put out and taken advantage of..." Nope. She blamed HIM for HER OWN choices. I believe this has been a pattern for a while, and at first JAR didn't even see it. Now he does see it but still doesn't speak up and call it what it is--in a healthy way. So it's a learning process but we're getting there.


At least we're getting there, do you think that it's just her personality or the situation? 




Affaircare said:


> This is a possibly good suggestion, but I think where lots of male people go off track a little. It is one thing to name what she's doing, say it's not okay with you, state your boundaries and stick to what you will and will not accept--and it's another to try to control someone else or just be abusive back. Thus, I'd encourage JAR to be honest and speak up; I'm not sure I'd encourage him to "be a man" and "pound his chest" and tell her he won't put up with her [email protected] Even if he were being assertive, it seems to be that isn't JAR's personal style.
> 
> Usually people swing from one end of the spectrum (mousy) to the other (attacker angry), and where we want to be for honest but healthy relationships is in the middle: honestly call it what it is and be assertive with your own boundaries. Like you said Misguided, I'd encourage him to speak out loud. When she's being snippy due to her own choices, just say "You made the choice to do that, not me, and I am not willing to take either your anger or the blame for your choice. When you can speak to me respectfully please do--I'll be <location>" and then turn and walk away from her. There really is no need to "take" her bad behavior. Just name it, say you will not be treated like that, and go to another room or place.


Sorry, I didn't mean that he should be controlling or abusive, just that he needed to stand up to her bullying. I have a colorful way of wording things sometimes. Anyway, I keep hearing this "fog" being mentioned, I assume it's an altered state of mind like a crazy person. In my experiences, the only way to stop a crazy person is to be more crazy than they are.




Affaircare said:


> I think the main issue is that JAR's wife seems to want to hold others responsible for her--her feelings, her choices etc. Thus as JAR grows and doesn't do that, and the OM is still of the unhealthy behavior that it *is* his fault or he *does* owe her that, they may be symbiotic in their dysfunction. BUT part of the issue here, I think, is that JAR likes his house and doesn't particularly want to leave it whereas his wife claims to have never liked the house. Thus, it seems common sense to me, to let her leave if she wants to be away from JAR. She can always go live with the OM after all! Personally, I think she wants the freedom to be married but "do what she wants" without the responsibility of living up to her side of the marriage. So she's secure there and she can blame JAR rather than having to face herself...who would want to leave? She has it made there!


All I have to say is that I would find a way to not be around her anymore, something has to give and I'd gladly bolt if I thought my sanity was at stake. I'm interested to know what you think about what I said in regards to OM filling Jar's shoes? I really don't think a man that would be a party to such a situation would be able to as he can't be a good person to wreck someone's home like this. I truly think that she so twisted that she needs to see it for herself.



OhGeesh said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Seems like she wants out to me you don't think so?
> 
> I'll be devils advocate and say for whatever reason JAR she seems like she has some huge resentments towards you. While she now may like the JAR she sees it pisses her off.
> 
> You were this, that, and the other before and now you are reading, exercising, being clean, almost as if she thinks it's all stage to try to get her back. To me it seems like no matter what you do she doesn't like let alone love you...........major resentments for whatever reason.
> 
> A extreme example is the beligerent alcoholic that can't stay sober and then suddenly changes......for many it's little too late. The love is gone the relationship broken.
> 
> I say let her go! Move on with someone who only knows the new improved version of you. I know I'm in the minority when I say that.


:iagree:

I still say head for the hills, man. You seem to be on the right path to improving yourself and she does not like that. Sidenote, I did say that the books in your room would strike a chord with her somewhere. Back to the topic at hand, she seems to be angry that you're taking steps to improve yourself, what has she been doing other than being toxic to you? Has she been working on herself as well or anything like that or just trying to force you to divorce her? I mean, you guys may know more than I do but she doesn't really need your help to divorce so why is she putting it all on you? Btw, I'd have been more than happy to oblige her at this point. AffairCare, help me understand something, why would she pull that number with not leaving his room? I mean, what are they, 12 year old brother and sister? How childish can you get, is it part of the fog? I'm asking because I also think it could've been some passive aggressive way of getting back together or something like that. She could've been in the bed yelling at him while hoping he gets in the bed with her, do you think that's a possiblity? She did go and cry after he finally got her to leave, maybe she was crying because he didn't get in the bed which she would perceive as him rejecting her. 

Also, I told you that she'd be on the lookout for the big payback, why the hell would she assume that you and her sister have something going on? She know's she wronged you and she's waiting for her comeuppance, that or it's just more madness.


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## OhGeesh

I think divorce because she is hoping for $$$$ and a clean break!! Run for the hills I very much agree with that.


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## turnera

Marriages can overcome resentment, with help. Why throw away a marriage when there is clearly some emotion left? IMO, she hasn't been 'clean' long enough for her to be thinking clearly. Not a great time to walk away.


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## OhGeesh

turnera said:


> Marriages can overcome resentment, with help. Why throw away a marriage when there is clearly some emotion left? IMO, she hasn't been 'clean' long enough for her to be thinking clearly. Not a great time to walk away.


She's not clean now she still sees the OM or O-men on a regular basis. She show no sign of wanting anything but a divorce. Posting from a phone sucks.......geesh. What are feeling/thinking today JAR? It takes two to tango Turnera she's noy dancing she's in a wheelchair!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Jar,

See you are getting under her skin! She is noticing all the changes and her little outburts is her defense mechanism. She knows you are trying to win her back, but she doesn't want to see you are becoming the man she has wanted to be all along. It makes her madthat NOW when she is leaving you start making all these changes that she has asked out of you for years.

It was great that ou stayed calm! Just so you know because I have had hubby reading the books and so have I ,I tendto be the one that gets hysterical and yells cause I hold it in too long and the dam just breaks. Anyway, now he stays calm and I totally freak out. It makes me so mad and sometimes I bait. Him just to see if I get him mad,he will lose it. This is what your wife did. Then when you refused to talk and she realized that she wasn't getting her way, she texted you.

I would draw her into another discussion. She is highly emotonal now. Ask her why it bothers her that you have all the. Books in your room, you are cleaning up after yourself,that you got contacts. I would tell her, I started doing these things for you as a way to get you back, but. Now that I have seen the benefits of changing myself that I needed to do these things for me. I would also ask her why everything is your fault,what part of responsibility is she taking in this marraige. You may not like what you hear, but it would get her to break up some of this wall she has around herself to keep you out.she is being nasty because she is determined that she wants out of this life and you are dragging your feet and she is not getting her way. 

You will not get anywhere with her until she takes responsibility for her part of the destruction of the marraige. She is clinging on to that bad guy,Jar,because that is her justification for getting out. You are ruining this for her. Somehow, I think if you can get her talking, she can air out all those feelings,resentments and you can show her that you have changed permantely because you are owning up to your part in making both of you unhappy. I think there are still feeling there or she would not get so emotional. When did she tell you she was unhappy for four years? That is a long time to hold it all in.

Jar, you did a great job. Now you have to decide if you want to get her talking more or if you just want to have the dividing everything up.I wonder since she is so desperate to leave if you could do a little bargaining with her. Ok, you give me a month of complete honesty,go out on dates, not see the OM and resepectfully talk to me and I will give you the dog and the china and sign on the dotted line. Would she agree? If she is desperate enough and can be out in four weeks, then she will do it.just a thought.....good job,Jar!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

It has been a eventful day to say the least.

This morning on my commute into work I got in a car accident. I hit a plow truck.

Luckily I am ok and know one got hurt. My truck is brand new I just got it a few weeks ago and haven’t even made the first payment on it yet. It is just a possession but with everything else going it is a little frustrating. 

I have been on the phone all morning dealing with insurance repair shops and rental cars.

So I have been distracted.

Thank you for the comments. I haven’t had a chance to read through them all and digest what every one haw wrote. I feel ok about last night still. My emotions are staying pretty steady.

I didn’t see wife this morning. I went to work before she was up. 

I did let her know about the accident.

This is what she emailed me.

Wow.. are you sure you are ok? How are you going to get back to home this evening?? I'm sorry if this happened because of me and you being upset.


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## Affaircare

JAR, 

In the most polite way possible, may I suggest that you schedule a doctor's appointment for this afternoon ASAP? This is not to say you are injured from the accident, but I can not begin to tell you the number of times I've seen people in a car accident, and even in slow-motion hits, your head whiplashes back and forth a bit. If you were not looking perfectly dead ahead--if you glanced into the side view mirror for example--as your head whiplashed forward and back it was at just that bit of an angle. Then due to the adrenalin of an accident and some shock afterward...you don't feel it. Suddenly tomorrow you wake up with a horrid neck ache, head can't turn, or shoulder that feels like it's dislocated. If nothing else a doc might be able to tell if there are torn shoulder or neck muscles and prescribe a bit of a pain pill or muscle relaxant. 

BTW, I'll write more about last night later.


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## Lazarus

Echo to the Doc appointment. 

Does two things:

1) Check up ...just to be on the safe side,

2) wife response? Indifference, or concern ? Could be interesting.

Nonetheless, for health reasons, better safe than sorry. 
Proactive, not retroactive.


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## tamara24

Yes, do the doc thing. You may feel absolutley fine now,but can wake up in the morning in a lot of pain.
Sorry to hear about the accident. What a way to start the weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

The good news is that for a neck/shoulder injury some common treatments are chiropractor or back massage! And you can say "The doctor TOLD ME to do it ... for my health! It's a prescription!" LOL :lol:


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## jar

Hey guys

Thanks for the concern. I have a doctor’s appointment on Monday. At this point I am still feeling ok. 

Get this I just got home early and wife has the drive way snow blowed. We actually had a conversation about our day at the dinner table tonight. 

Last night she hates me and I am the evil person of all time tonight she is talkative. 

This weekend should be interesting. I plan to move the rest of my things home. Both of us will be under the same roof all weekend with no plans.

JAR


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## Affaircare

JAR~

You just had a car accident and she went ballistic on ya yesterday for no good reason. May I suggest you give yourself a little "TLC" and remain civil but someone detached this weekend? Just do your own thing, work on your own little projects or what you feel like doing (depending on how sore you are), and if she tries to bring something up, let her know you're taking the weekend to get over the accident and you'd be happy to talk about it on "XX or YY night--which works better for you?"


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## tamara24

On the other hand, if the wife feels bad for thinking you were upset over the conversation,maybe she is willing to be nurse for a day..........hmmmm. I might just wake up and be in a lot of pain in the morning.

Oh yes, I know it is sooo mean. But I am thinking a little serving of guilt never hurt anyone and she has been so mean to Jar. Hehe!>) just a random thought..........

Glad you were not seriousy hurt!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf359

I just want to make sure that you saw this jar. It may help some how, to show this to her. 

YouTube - Prevent My Divorce: The Walkaway Wife Syndrome


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Like looking in a mirror, I was in an accident today too. I was in a cab and this "driver" was paying more attention to the fire trucks and EMT accross the street and rear ended us. My noggin's a bit throbbin and my neck's wrecked but they said that it will get worse tomorrow. 

Back to the topic at hand, I wouldn't let her touch me if she was rescuing me from a fire. I think if you reject, that's too strong, refuse her help respectfully. If she has any decency left in her, she'll think "This man is in immense pain and he refuses my help, what have I done to him?" or she'd say "@#$% it, I tried." Either way would work with me. 

Also, the doctor prescribed me some oxycontin, does anyone know a safe way to take it without becoming addicted? I'd rather endure the pain than become an addict.


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## Affaircare

tamara24 said:


> On the other hand, if the wife feels bad ... maybe she is willing to be nurse for a day..........hmmmm. "I might just wake up and be in a lot of pain in the morning."
> 
> Oh yes, I know it is sooo mean. But I am thinking a little serving of guilt never hurt anyone and she has been so mean to Jar. Hehe!>) just a random thought..........


TAMARA!  You are so naughty!


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## tamara24

Hey I have been a good girl all my life, I kinda like this little naughty streak!hah!

The fact that she can scream holy h--- at Jar one minute then show concern the next, shows she has some unresolved feelings and what better way to bring those out than her actually feeling guilty.

She has been a complete snot,let her learn to be nice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Hey Guys

I feel pretty good. No pain or anything like that. I was lucky.

I had a good weekend I spent the weekend getting the last few things of mine moved home unpacked and organized. 

I also caught up on some sleep and was able to relax some.

In terms of wife and I this weekend. She has been kind of normal. We both have been doing are own things all weekend. But she hasn’t been withdrawn at all and has been some what talkative. We did watch a little tv together bill cosby stand up. 

No more talk of possessions or serouse emotional stuff.

She hung the picture I took of the dog back up. She even helped me make my bed and get my room set up. She moved some things out of the extra dresser in my room. (Sheets and Towels) and moved them into and a closet where she keeps some of her hobby things. I thanked her very much for this.

We will see what kind of roller coaster ride this week is.

Thanks everyone
JAR


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## Lazarus

jar said:


> No more talk of possessions or serouse emotional stuff.
> 
> JAR


Have a look at this link, Jar. It may help with understanding "serious emotional stuff" 
Video 1: Why Emotions Matter


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## jar

So wife wants to have another conversation tonight about possessions.

She hasn’t been withdrawn since our big argument last week and has been talkative. 

This morning she even called me to let me know that there was a few accidents on the way to work and that I should be carful.

Is she just being nice so that she gets what she wants? 

The swings with her are so crazy.

JAR


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## notreadytoquit

jar said:


> So wife wants to have another conversation tonight about possessions.
> 
> She hasn’t been withdrawn since our big argument last week and has been talkative.
> 
> This morning she even called me to let me know that there was a few accidents on the way to work and that I should be carful.
> 
> Is she just being nice so that she gets what she wants?
> 
> The swings with her are so crazy.
> 
> JAR


Don't read into this too much. My ex husband was also really nice just before the divorce.


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## OhGeesh

I'll reiterate she wants a divorce and wants it to be as easy as possible. Being nice, manipulation, playing her cards whatever I think she just wants this over and done.

How will our assets be split up? 
How will me move forward with the house?
Let's try to keep this civil!

I don't think there is anything to read as long as you are committed to moving on she will be happy. I guarantee if you start with "I don't want this" "I will wait as long as I can because I don't want a divorce" etc etc

The same type of argument will happen probably a tad less tense this time.

Move on JAR unless she gives you a 100% clear reason not too. Which she hasn't you are just looking for petals in a field full of thorns.

IMO! Best of luck to ya.


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## Affaircare

I mildly disagree with OhGeesh but not as much as you might think. If it were me, I think I'd suggest letting her know that you still do not want a divorce and won't take direct actions to move a divorce forward, but that if she is determined you will not fight her or turn it into a vicious, spiteful thing. 

I think her real fear is that many people, when they divorce, turn it into a circus of vile hatred and rather than anyone getting any assets, they "lawyer up" and waste it all on legal fees trying to defend themselves. The fact is she has already filed, and she has already served you. The fact is that if she doesn't do another thing, and the two of you don't fight but you also don't come to an agreement...that the judge will just decide for you. You may want to remind her of that. 

Finally, just a suggestion...a step to consider. At this point it would seem pretty clear that your house is not going to sell at the current price. You haven't even had one viewing! So you may want to offer selling it on short sale for exactly the amount of the mortgage. Yes, you get no equity, that's true. It would seem you're probably not getting equity anyway. But you also get out from under the debt and won't ruin your credit. You both LOSE nothing and could move on. The way it's going now, it's conceivable you may get only the one offer that's 30% less than the mortgage, and then you both start your new lives with a debt! So maybe that's an option you could consider and prepare yourself for. 

Meanwhile, you did fine last discussion. I'm sure it was difficult but you kept your focus, stayed calm and respectful, and stayed true to yourself. I'm sure even you are realizing that as things move forward, you are going to have to get yourself ready for moving out and moving on. You can do this JAR!


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## rome2012

notreadytoquit said:


> Don't read into this too much. My ex husband was also really nice just before the divorce.


Sadly...same here  !!!


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## Why Not Be Happy?

Affaircares advise about your house is solid! I have made a living in the real estate industry for many years----selling your house may be more of a problem than you think. The market (on average) is off 25% for single homes. If you are not getting showings than you are probably grossly overpriced and will need to make a significant price change in order to sell. People fight over household items costing hundreds but do not understand that their house sale is a bigger issue (tens of thousands..?..).


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## tamara24

Take the discussion for exactly what it is, a discussion. No strings attached.

I would however, make sure that I would state the following: I am willing to calmly discuss the seperation of our belongings as long as you are aware that I am totally against this. I will not stop you from seeking a divorce, but I ask that regardless of what is said this evening, you will not lose control,yell and or or make disrespectful judgements at me. I will extend that courtesy to you also. If either of us feel that the conversation is more than we can handle, then we will reserve the right to discuss it at a later time after more thought can be given to the topic.

Stay calm, don't let her yell at you and say spiteful things. She is trying to get you to lose control. Don't give her the satisfaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Here is the run down on the house.

4 Bedroom, 2 car garage, 1/3 acre lot, 1900 SQ ft.

Paid 185K for the house 5 years ago. Market was high.

First time home buyer 0 down 6.5% 30 year loan bank finance 100% 

50k in cash invested into the house in renovations

Landscaping
Interior renovations
33 new windows
Vinyl Siding

Mortgage Payoff 173K Asking price 180K we will be in the hole after closing costs and broker fees.

Problems:

Town has the house appraised at about 190K this equals a little over 6k in property taxes a year. Town has some of the highest property taxes in the state and is not the nicest town in terms of school system etc. 

To speak generally about the town
Large population of older people
Large population or renters
Few college graduates 
Few businesses that pay good salaries
The mean income of the average family is rather low

Reason we moved to town reasonably priced housing and connivance. At the time other people were moving to the town for the same reasons.

Bank assessment of the property value is 170K even after all the upgrades and renovations. In the past 18months there are no comparable comps that have been sold. Our house is a cape the capes that have sold in the past have been priced any where between 100k and 140k. They are considerably smaller and older. If the bank were to compare the house against a comparable colonial or ranch. We would be all set.

So with that being said that leaves me in a tough situation. I can’t even refinanced and take advantage of a better interest rate. 

Next problem is the market is saturated with houses for sale and a lot of foreclosures. Our house isn’t the highest priced or the lowest priced. It is winter here very few people are buying. The houses that are selling are foreclosures. The houses that are selling are selling for 40k to 110k.

So with the high taxes, the state of the economy, the state of the local job market, and housing market we are in a sticky situation.

Our realtor is a straight shooter and I trust her a lot. We have talked about even taking the 30% hit and she still tells us that we would be lucky to get viewings let alone an offer. In some ways we are already eating 30%.

Wife and I had more of a 7 to 10 year plan for this house before we were going to consider the next move or house. We didn’t plan for a divorce in the worst housing market the town has seen in 30 years.


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## OhGeesh

jar said:


> Here is the run down on the house.
> 
> 4 Bedroom, 2 car garage, 1/3 acre lot, 1900 SQ ft.
> 
> Paid 185K for the house 5 years ago. Market was high.
> 
> First time home buyer 0 down 6.5% 30 year loan bank finance 100%
> 
> 50k in cash invested into the house in renovations
> 
> Landscaping
> Interior renovations
> 33 new windows
> Vinyl Siding
> 
> Mortgage Payoff 173K Asking price 180K we will be in the hole after closing costs and broker fees.
> 
> Problems:
> 
> Town has the house appraised at about 190K this equals a little over 6k in property taxes a year. Town has some of the highest property taxes in the state and is not the nicest town in terms of school system etc.
> 
> To speak generally about the town
> Large population of older people
> Large population or renters
> Few college graduates
> Few businesses that pay good salaries
> The mean income of the average family is rather low
> 
> Reason we moved to town reasonably priced housing and connivance. At the time other people were moving to the town for the same reasons.
> 
> Bank assessment of the property value is 170K even after all the upgrades and renovations. In the past 18months there are no comparable comps that have been sold. Our house is a cape the capes that have sold in the past have been priced any where between 100k and 140k. They are considerably smaller and older. If the bank were to compare the house against a comparable colonial or ranch. We would be all set.
> 
> So with that being said that leaves me in a tough situation. I can’t even refinanced and take advantage of a better interest rate.
> 
> Next problem is the market is saturated with houses for sale and a lot of foreclosures. Our house isn’t the highest priced or the lowest priced. It is winter here very few people are buying. The houses that are selling are foreclosures. The houses that are selling are selling for 40k to 110k.
> 
> So with the high taxes, the state of the economy, the state of the local job market, and housing market we are in a sticky situation.
> 
> Our realtor is a straight shooter and I trust her a lot. We have talked about even taking the 30% hit and she still tells us that we would be lucky to get viewings let alone an offer. In some ways we are already eating 30%.
> 
> Wife and I had more of a 7 to 10 year plan for this house before we were going to consider the next move or house. We didn’t plan for a divorce in the worst housing market the town has seen in 30 years.


Yep great time to buy horrible time to sell. Many in our subdivision bought for 280-320 now will be lucky to get 240 for it..........just the way it is.

Looks like you guys will have to come up with a arrangement of sorts. How was the talk?


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## jar

I postponed it till tonight.

I ended up working late and didn’t get home until really late last night.

I called wife left her a message saying I new this conversation was important to her and that I was not blowing her off. I asked if we could postpone till tonight because some urgent things came up at work and I needed to stay late. 

She texted me back say she was ok with this.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

Good luck with your talk tonight.

A helpful thing for your house might be this----ask your agent how much you would need to price your house for in order for it to sell in 30 days or less (tell her not to hold back...you need the truth no matter what it is). I suspect this will be a pretty "ugly" number but it will be helpful to know it going forward. You may want to get it ASAP and share it tonight.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

My sentence structure was awful----sorry.


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## jar

Another update…..last night wife and I talked about splitting up possessions and began going through her inventory sheets. We made a deal to only go through the first 3 pages. It was mostly easy stuff. DVDs some furniture things like that. Over all that part of things went well.

So the setting of the conversation was our living room both of us sitting on the couch with the dog curled up in-between both of us.

I decided to start last night’s conversation a little differently. I started with a complement. One evening this past week. Wife was in the kitchen and polite asked me to be more consonances’ about keeping the counter wiped off. This is a big change for wife. She normally is very bossy and could go into a tantrum over something like this.

So I thanked her for speaking to me calmly and respectfully. I told her I recognized that this was bothering her and it must have taken a lot on her part to word her request in such a respectful way.

The second part of my opening was an apology. Since I moved out and started taking care of myself I started to realize how much work it is to keep my own finances in check, cook, clean, go groceries shopping, and go to work. I told wife that I was sorry for the past and my selfish behavior. I told wife that I was truly sorry that our marriage wasn’t more of a partnership when it came to day to day things. I have been feeling guilty about this for a long time and needed to get it off my chest. I have mentioned this before in other posts but I did none of the above things. I use to work 12 hours a day come home and crash and do it all over again the next day. Wife always took care of everything she would even make my lunch and always have a nice dinner waiting for me at night.

So basically wife’s response to all this oh ok. I feel better having said these things. It had been eating at me.

So after we got through the list. I asked my wife if she was serious about me not contacting her family. Asked if she was really serious about me not sending a gift to my twin nieces for there birthday.

This opened up a fairly emotional conversation.

Wife was upset that I had sent books to her family. She felt I crossed the line. I told her that it was for her family to help them with there own feelings about our situation. I shared with wife how I had seen the hurt and confusion in my own family when my aunt and uncle both discovered there daughters were having affairs. My wife said this is my family and not yours. She told me that she has the right to tell her family what she wants and she has the right to tell them what they can and can’t read. Wife basically then told me that become of certain things I have told her family I have affected her relationship with them. She told me her family needs to be there for her and my family needs to be there for me. She told me that her sis basically feels like this is happening to her to. She is very upset with the whole situation. Her sis told her some of her friends don’t feel bad for my wife. She is the one who wants this. Apparently this hurt my wife’s feelings a lot. So basically my wife is blaming me for the way her family feels about her. 

My impression of this conversation is my wife blames me for what ever sad state her relationship is with her family. She’s not taking responsibility for her decisions. Wife doesn’t see that this divorce/affair hurts her family a lot to. They are loosing a family member. I also see that wife is still trying to control what her family feels and says and does about the situation.

So after this wife says to me I haven’t contacted your family. I asked why is that don’t you love them any more. They have been part of your life for 10 years. Her response was I didn’t want to affect your relationship with them they need to be there for you. She told me that they hadn’t reached out to her and she wasn’t going to reach out and then be rejected for her actions and behavior. She was like besides your mom and me didn’t get a long that well. She3 is like your brother has enough friends. I then asked is that why she had deleted everyone from her face book? She said yeah. I am done with them. She also admitted she did it because she was angry with me. I just told wife you know they have been your family for 10 years and 30% of your life my family accepted you as a daughter and a sister and it is hurtful to them they haven’t herd from you. I said everyone has asked why they haven’t herd from you and why you deleted them from your face book. They think they have done something wrong.

I then told wife I didn’t see things as her family and my family so much. I just new I missed a lot of people that I loved very much and people that have been a huge part of my life.

I told wife I don’t feel like you are very enthusiastic about me having a relationship with your family or even sending birthday gifts to our nieces. I told her I think you are just telling me this write know because it is easier.

So that was last night. My wife hasn’t really grown too much from this experience. It is disappointing. Her thoughts and feelings and actions are exactly what the books say.

JAR


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## turnera

You did good. I would encourage you, however, to IGNORE her BS about my family/your family. In fact, if it comes up again, just politely say 'the ONLY reason this is even a subject of talk is because of your poor actions; therefore, I will not agree to remove some of the most important people in my life FROM my life, just because YOU are unwilling to admit your actions and ask for forgiveness from the people who love you.'

SOMEBODY has to say it.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> Another update…..last night wife and I talked about splitting up possessions and began going through her inventory sheets. We made a deal to only go through the first 3 pages. It was mostly easy stuff. DVDs some furniture things like that. Over all that part of things went well.


Honestly? I suspected as much. I don't mean to belittle the things you've earned and purchased, but it's just things. In the bigger scheme, it's not all that important. I didn't really think this was much of an issue at all, did you?



> I decided to start last night’s conversation a little differently. I started with a complement. One evening this past week. Wife was in the kitchen and polite asked me to be more consonances’ about keeping the counter wiped off. This is a big change for wife. She normally is very bossy and could go into a tantrum over something like this.
> 
> So I thanked her for speaking to me calmly and respectfully. I told her I recognized that this was bothering her and it must have taken a lot on her part to word her request in such a respectful way.


Good choice. And please note that by doing this, you took her "off the defensive" and gave her a positive association with a healthy choice. So now she has "yell and scream at JAR = no talk; politely asking = agreement and civility." Well done! Plus it got things off on a positive foot. 



> The second part of my opening was an apology. Since I moved out and started taking care of myself I started to realize how much work it is to keep my own finances in check, cook, clean, go groceries shopping, and go to work. I told wife that I was sorry for the past and my selfish behavior. I told wife that I was truly sorry that our marriage wasn’t more of a partnership when it came to day to day things. I have been feeling guilty about this for a long time and needed to get it off my chest. I have mentioned this before in other posts but I did none of the above things. I use to work 12 hours a day come home and crash and do it all over again the next day. Wife always took care of everything she would even make my lunch and always have a nice dinner waiting for me at night.
> 
> So basically wife’s response to all this oh ok. I feel better having said these things. It had been eating at me.


I think I understand. This was not necessarily "for her" with hopes of gaining anything or any of that--this was "for you" and because you wanted to say out loud what you've realized. The fact of the matter is that the sort of work your wife contributed to the relationship is often overlooked while things are "running smoothly"--and a good part of the reason they even ARE "running smoothly" is because she organized, paid bills, cleaned, cooked, etc. But somehow, when you work all day and arrive home to a warm meal, it doesn't dawn on you "Hey, hours of menu prep, grocery shopping, meal prep, and cooking went into this" (even when it's just mac n cheese)! So that's cool you got it off your chest and now your side of the street is cleaner. 

Don't beat yourself up too bad about it though, okay? You're a human being, it was a mistake, you've learned from it, and you've changed for the better. That is a GOOD thing. Let's just say that I'm still waiting to see that same sort of self-examination and personal responsibility from the other party. 



> Wife was upset that I had sent books to her family. She felt I crossed the line. I told her that it was for her family to help them with there own feelings about our situation. I shared with wife how I had seen the hurt and confusion in my own family when my aunt and uncle both discovered there daughters were having affairs. My wife said this is my family and not yours. *She told me that she has the right to tell her family what she wants and she has the right to tell them what they can and can’t read. *


Just as a comment here, I hope you sort of "saw through" this :bsflag: When she says "...she felt I crossed the line...." that's in the realm of realistic because that is her stating what she felt. Note she's not controlling you nor her family there, just relaying her reality. Now if she had stopped there it would have made some sense in a way because to her those books were telling her family she was committing adultery. She IS...but to her of course she justifies it. The trouble is that she doesn't stop there. She is trying to control you and who you have in your life; she is trying to control every member of her family and who they have in their lives; and she is trying to limit what they can and can not do and who they can and can not have contact with! That is just ABSURD!! What if her family disagrees with her choices? They *have to*do what she says and "be there" for her adultery? NO! So I do hope you did not fall for this because it's not only unrealistic, it's unhealthy. And yeah, by the way, I still talk to my ex-inlaws (I jokingly call them outlaws now) because after the divorce I wrote to them and said I still love you--I have to decades--and although we don't have a legal relations I would choose to be friends with you. I still talk to his mom, his brother and their whole family, and his sister and her whole family. 



> ...Wife basically then told me that* become of certain things I have told her family I have affected her relationship with them. * She told me her family needs to be there for her and my family needs to be there for me. *She told me that her sis basically feels like this is happening to her to*. She is very upset with the whole situation. Her sis told her some of her friends don’t feel bad for my wife. She is the one who wants this. Apparently this hurt my wife’s feelings a lot. So basically my wife is blaming me for the way her family feels about her.


So please note the part in bold. This is exceedingly "to be expected" from your wife as she rarely--if EVER--takes personal responsibility for her choices. She doesn't see that her relationship with her family is affected BECAUSE OF CHOICES SHE MADE (namely, the choice to abandon her commitments and be unfaithful). Note that she also very predictably tries to control them ("they *have to* be there for her...whether they agree with her decision or not) and they have to agree with her. Also, not that she said her sis feels like this is happening to her, and that's because IT IS!! Again, she's ducking personal responsibility in realizing that HER CHOICE is hurting her family. It IS happening to her sister, because her sister is losing someone she cares for (namely...you  ). So rather than admit that her own behavior is hurting her family and affecting her relationship with them, her solution is to MAKE them "be there for her" and MAKE them "feel bad for her".  I'm glad you saw that was pure, unadulterated blame-shifting. 



> My impression of this conversation is my wife blames me for what ever sad state her relationship is with her family. She’s not taking responsibility for her decisions. Wife doesn’t see that this divorce/affair hurts her family a lot to. They are loosing a family member. I also see that wife is still trying to control what her family feels and says and does about the situation.


DING-DING-DING!! Give the man a prize! :smthumbup: :smthumbup: You nailed it right on the head. Good job! 



> I told wife I don’t feel like you are very enthusiastic about me having a relationship with your family or even sending birthday gifts to our nieces. I told her I think you are just telling me this write know because it is easier.
> 
> So that was last night. My wife hasn’t really grown too much from this experience. It is disappointing. Her thoughts and feelings and actions are exactly what the books say.


I'll just say that I believe you are seeing things clearly and thinking very realistically; whereas I can not say the same for your wife. I'm just going to say that you have very good instincts, JAR, and you've come a long, LONG way. I think you can trust yourself. And here's the thing--if you were to back off from her family, she'd say you treated them "hatefully" (or something). Thus, just do what you know in your heart is right, and talk to them and work it out with them as people in the same healthy, respectful way you would with any other adult. As always, she'll make her choices and blame others, etc. but that is pretty predictable and I wouldn't let her blame stop you from doing the right thing. If you love those folks and they love you back and give you permission, talk to 'em. Don't be surprised though if some of them...well at least cool off some.


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## axw

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Awesome job Jar! I am so proud of you for realizing that she is not taking responsibility for her choices and actions! 

Wifey likes to be in control. When she stated that she that she has the right to tell her family what they can and can't read. NO SHE CAN'T!! I don't think her family are mindless people who can't make their own decisions. She can not control who her family decides to associate with. That is their coice. Once you are divorced, your wife has lost her say as to who YOU can associate with too. She is ashamed of her actions and she knows deep down that if your family and you decide to talk,she can't control what is said and what information you might spill about your relationship.

Your apology was self healing and I hope your wife realizes how sorry you are for this. But truthfully Jar, I don't think you realize that a majority of men do the same thing. I do all the things you apologized for,plus have two kids with chronic illnesses. It is exhausting! Although my hubby is starting to realize to see just hhow much is done. My leaving in October for a week really opened his eyes as to what I do and he had even less of my chores because I had cooked for the entire week! So my point is, don't beat yourself up over this. Be thankful you have grown and changed and realized how much work is involved. Take this with you into a new realtionship and be happy. If wife suddenly decides she wants to take responsibility for her actions, then maybe you can continue this with her.

At this point Jar, I hope you realize that your wife has not grown through this experience and you have just blossomed. You have changed for the better and she stays stuck. There are some people that you can help and there are others that refuse to try. You are a better man and regardless of what happens,you will come out of this in such a better place than what you originally thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks guys…I feel like I have come a long way….When I have these conversations with wife. I feel like I should point these things out to her and argue the point from my new arsenal of knowledge to make her see things our way. But I have mixed feelings about doing this and feel like I want to say something for the sake of an argument.. I think these are things she needs to figure out. Makes me wonder what her and her therapist talk about.


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## 8yearscheating

Don't need arguments right now and you telling her what other people think or write won't go over well. Stick to the positive things you have been doing. If the changes in yourself have no effect, then you have done your best and she won't change.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Thanks guys…I feel like I have come a long way….When I have these conversations with wife. I feel like I should point these things out to her and argue the point from my new arsenal of knowledge to make her see things our way. But I have mixed feelings about doing this and feel like I want to say something for the sake of an argument.. I think these are things she needs to figure out. Makes me wonder what her and her therapist talk about.


You should just doing the right things for youself because, if nothing else, someone has to. Everything else is going to take care of itself.


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## tamara24

She wouldn't listen to you anyway. She would see it as the new Jar suddenly knows everything,then why didn't he do this stuff when we were in the marraige.

The way she still is looking at things is how she talks to her therapist. You are still the bad Jar,never helping around the house and taking her for granted. She is still the victim. She has not accepted her part of responsibility or the fact she went outside of the marraige,it was because of you. She has not done the work to better her understanding of what happened and why your marraige went into crisis. You have done all the work and the fog has lifted from your eyes.

As frustrating as it is, you know the saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## axw

Wow. It's taken me about a week to read all this! I'm really sorry that you're going through all this, however everyone can see all the positive changes in your life! 

I've been married a little over a year and feel that I've learned from your experience. My wife has never been unfaithful and I want to do everything I can to keep her love bank full so that she never has to go anywhere else to have those needs met. There were several books mentioned throughout this thread that I would like to read. Of those you read, which would you recommend I read to keep our marriage fresh and help prevent anything like what you've gone through from happening to us?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *everafter*

tamara24 said:


> She would see it as the new Jar suddenly knows everything,then why didn't he do this stuff when we were in the marraige.


Will people like jar's wife ever get past this kind of thinking? I understand that they think that way but is it possible they get over it and accept that the past is past, and accept that the changes are happening now, even if it had to come to this first?


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## jar

AXW

Thanks for taking the time to read….I really like Harleys books His Needs her Needs. That book really taught me a lot. 

Afaircare….Thank you for your response.

Last week was a long week for me. Long days at work, home late, working out, dealing with the insurance company, etc. I had very little down time. By the time I eat dinner and work out it is bed time.

Wife hasn’t been so withdrawn especially last week. She has been watching TV in the living room and she sits there on her lap top while she is watching TV. This bothers me some because I only assume she is chatting on line with OM.

I had a pretty good weekend. My best friend and I took a day long road trip to the city to pick up some things for my fish tank. It was really nice he was able to come he is a busy dad with 3 little girls.

Today I slept in really late and did just the normal getting ready for the week type of things.

Wife was a way all weekend with her family. It was my niece’s birthday this weekend. I did end up getting them a gift. Some cute little necklaces with there initials on them. Wife didn’t ask what I got them but she did take the gifts with her so I didn’t have to ship. I did ask my sis in law if it was ok that I sent a gift to the girls and she was ok with it. I am disappointed I missed there birthday party I really miss them so much. 

Wife got home this evening and has been hanging out on the laptop in the living room. She is actually watching the football game. I refuse to join her because she is chatting with the OM. 

I know this because I went downstairs to get my laptop. Wife doing her laundry and she left her laptop opened. She was looking at naughty lingerie and chatting with OM. This disappoints me so much. I actually I am very pissed about it. You would think she would be a little more respectful. I have new glasses and I feel like they are magnifying glasses. I could see this on her screen all the way across the room. Not like I was snooping.

I also got some contact lenses. I was wearing them when she got home but she didn’t comment. First time I have ever worn them. I asked how the party was and she just said fine.

So we will see what this week brings.

On another note. I have another woman that has been calling emailing me and texting me. She is at the beginning stages of a divorce. Her husband left her and moved away in December. We are both from the same home town. My bro gave her my number. Thing is I think she might be nothing more than a parasite that could get me very off track. She is attractive and seems interested in talking and getting to know each other she is also a therapist. I don’t engage to often in any kind of conversation. I would be interested in being a friend and being some one she could talk to about her situation but that is it. I think we are both lonely and it would be very easy for things to go a much different direction so I am trying to be polite as best I can and stay away.

JAR


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## turnera

Explain to me again why you are paying for Internet in your house for HER to use to CHEAT on you with?


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> AXW
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read….I really like Harleys books His Needs her Needs. That book really taught me a lot.
> 
> Afaircare….Thank you for your response.
> 
> Last week was a long week for me. Long days at work, home late, working out, dealing with the insurance company, etc. I had very little down time. By the time I eat dinner and work out it is bed time.
> 
> Wife hasn’t been so withdrawn especially last week. She has been watching TV in the living room and she sits there on her lap top while she is watching TV. This bothers me some because I only assume she is chatting on line with OM.
> 
> I had a pretty good weekend. My best friend and I took a day long road trip to the city to pick up some things for my fish tank. It was really nice he was able to come he is a busy dad with 3 little girls.
> 
> Today I slept in really late and did just the normal getting ready for the week type of things.
> 
> Wife was a way all weekend with her family. It was my niece’s birthday this weekend. I did end up getting them a gift. Some cute little necklaces with there initials on them. Wife didn’t ask what I got them but she did take the gifts with her so I didn’t have to ship. I did ask my sis in law if it was ok that I sent a gift to the girls and she was ok with it. I am disappointed I missed there birthday party I really miss them so much.
> 
> Wife got home this evening and has been hanging out on the laptop in the living room. She is actually watching the football game. I refuse to join her because she is chatting with the OM.
> 
> I know this because I went downstairs to get my laptop. Wife doing her laundry and she left her laptop opened. She was looking at naughty lingerie and chatting with OM. This disappoints me so much. I actually I am very pissed about it. You would think she would be a little more respectful. I have new glasses and I feel like they are magnifying glasses. I could see this on her screen all the way across the room. Not like I was snooping.
> 
> I also got some contact lenses. I was wearing them when she got home but she didn’t comment. First time I have ever worn them. I asked how the party was and she just said fine.
> 
> So we will see what this week brings.
> 
> On another note. I have another woman that has been calling emailing me and texting me. She is at the beginning stages of a divorce. Her husband left her and moved away in December. We are both from the same home town. My bro gave her my number. Thing is I think she might be nothing more than a parasite that could get me very off track. She is attractive and seems interested in talking and getting to know each other she is also a therapist. I don’t engage to often in any kind of conversation. I would be interested in being a friend and being some one she could talk to about her situation but that is it. I think we are both lonely and it would be very easy for things to go a much different direction so I am trying to be polite as best I can and stay away.
> 
> JAR


I'm not saying that you should break your vows but would it be so bad to have someone to connect with? I'm trying to learn not to be so closed off myself. It doesn't mean that it has to go anywhere but don't be so ready to dismiss it.


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## NotJustMe

turnera said:


> Explain to me again why you are paying for Internet in your house for HER to use to CHEAT on you with?


This is a good point. You could cancel your service or even switch to an encrypted wireless signal with a password known only to you. No need to enable her further.


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## jar

Good point

I use the internet as well and pay half the bill. That is my only excuse.

So what do I do get my own line installed and say hey you pay for your own.

I would imagine I could block certain things by setting up a proxy server or something in my router. She would be clueless as to what is going on.

At this point am I enabling here affair or trying to control her behavior by blocking this out. She is going to communicate with him one way or another. Weather I like it or not….Weather it is right or wrong….

JAR


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## turnera

Heck yeah! you tell her to get her own access. You say "I will NOT PAY for you to cheat on me in my own house."

Isn't it about time you take a stand?

If she is going to communicate anyway, let her do it from her own apartment. jar, she has NO RESPECT for you. Why should she? You let her cheat on you IN YOUR FACE and don't kick her out.


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## turnera

Blocking her access to Internet WITHOUT TELLING HER WHY is chickensh*t and you know it. 

Just own your own truth, ok?


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## jar

Turnera…..Good point….I am going to mull this over for a day or so and see how I feel about it. If I go down this road things are going to get even more complicated.



Jar


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## 8yearscheating

Don't stir a pot that is already boiling over. You moved back home and you should expect she would continue what she was doing before. I'm sure she knows you see her doing it online. So what is the benefit. Buy the house if you want it and ASK her if she wants to move out when you do.


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## turnera

8years, that's true, but it IS still his home, and he deserves just as much respect there as she does. Just because he moved out (to help fix the marriage) doesn't relieve him of any rights.

Women need their men to be strong.


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## Affaircare

jar said:


> At this point am I enabling here affair or trying to control her behavior by blocking this out. She is going to communicate with him one way or another. Whether I like it or not….Whether it is right or wrong….


Controlling her behavior would be telling her (even calmly) that she can not contact the OM while she's in the house, or telling her she can not use her laptop to have an affair. See how that's telling what she can and can not do? If she's determined, she will find a way. 

Enabling her behavior would be paying the internet bill so she CAN contact the OM on your dime. Enabling her behavior would be seeing her blatantly looking at lingerie with a man other than her husband and saying nothing. 

Thus, I would suggest that rather than messing with your router or proxy server and never telling her (which would be controlling her by default, and would be lying), that you tell the truth right out loud: "<Wife> you and I are still married, and whilst you may hold me in some low regard, I am still your husband and could not help but notice your blatant flirting with another man on the internet service that I pay for. I am not willing to contribute to the destruction of our marriage through an affair, so I will getting my own internet service and setting my proxy server and router to work for me only. I will be doing this as soon as I can get an installation. If you would like to join me and use my service I would be happy to have you but I will not accept adultery on my internet dime. So you are completely free to join me or to make your own internet plans--I'm giving you notification now." 

The end. Let her choose. If she wants to continue the affair and actively work to destroy the marriage and act like she's divorced, then allow her to experience what it's really like to have to do this on her own! That is neither enabling nor controlling, because she's free to choose to continue in a choice that's bad for her if she so desires.


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## jar

Turnera and Affaircare

You both have a great point. We have a phone tv internet deal going. It is in my name. However she pays the bill at the end of the month. I transfer my half of the bill money in one lump some to her. So this makes it easy I will get another internet line and deduct that amount off of my monthly contributions to the bills. That way we can’t argue over the tv part of the service and phone service in the house.

This works and makes sense to me. It also gives her a few choices none of which she will like. But she has a few choices. I won’t be contributing to the affair and won’t be a doormat. This is exactly why I had the cell phone account split 6 months ago.

JAR


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## jar

Ok…I just talked to our service provider and basically I can’t get a separate bill sent to the house or my po box. It would be another line item on our current bill….DSL….isn’t really an option in my area seeing how we don’t even have a regular phone line hook up any more. Air card isn’t an option because cell service at our house isn’t good.

Maybe another line item on our bill is ok. We can send in two checks or something.


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## OhGeesh

Are ya'll kidding me? Really tell me it's a joke!!

If my wife said "Get out" "Leave" and I was in the mental state of JAR's wife I would say?? "Yeah okay!!" I'm not leaving!!

She wants a divorce, she sees the other man, she likes, texts, chats, flirts, etc and wants a divorce as soon as possible from YOU!!

Why would you be shocked to see her chatting....there is no marriage anymore it's nothing but a document that she wants done away with ASAP. I really don't get the advice at this point. Just move on get a divorce...have a few more lay it on the line talks if you must to really get everything out, but she has given you no reason to think she wants to be with you JAR. Zero, None, Nada you are just looking for twinkles in the dark and they aren't there.

This is going on for over 1 year now I'll have to go reread to confirm.....but really move on do something. I really questions alot of your motives as for you vs her when you get this upset. Do you really think she only goes to see the family? Do you really think they are not seeing, talking, flirting, all the time? 

MOVE ON BRO!!


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## MisguidedMiscreant

OhGeesh said:


> Are ya'll kidding me? Really tell me it's a joke!!
> 
> If my wife said "Get out" "Leave" and I was in the mental state of JAR's wife I would say?? "Yeah okay!!" I'm not leaving!!
> 
> She wants a divorce, she sees the other man, she likes, texts, chats, flirts, etc and wants a divorce as soon as possible from YOU!!
> 
> Why would you be shocked to see her chatting....there is no marriage anymore it's nothing but a document that she wants done away with ASAP. I really don't get the advice at this point. Just move on get a divorce...have a few more lay it on the line talks if you must to really get everything out, but she has given you no reason to think she wants to be with you JAR. Zero, None, Nada you are just looking for twinkles in the dark and they aren't there.
> 
> This is going on for over 1 year now I'll have to go reread to confirm.....but really move on do something. I really questions alot of your motives as for you vs her when you get this upset. Do you really think she only goes to see the family? Do you really think they are not seeing, talking, flirting, all the time?
> 
> MOVE ON BRO!!


Here here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Yeah I think even JAR agrees here--she's pretty clearly made her choice so far. BUT the fact is that she is not divorced, and her husband is right there. If she wants to "act" divorced, that is her choice--but for every choice there is a cost. The cost of "acting" divorced while married is that good old hubby doesn't foot the bill for her to play footsie with other men. 

She's pretty clear she wants out. Cool. She can start to experience what it's like to be divorced. So far she's kept all the privileges of being married, and I see no reason whatsoever for JAR to pay for her to screw with another man! That's silly! 

Sooo...JAR if you don't want to pay for your wife's internet access, can you think outside the box a little? Is "your provider" the only DSL provider in your area? If not, go to another provider. Could you go to different kind of service, like cable internet? Could you live without internet for you at your house? If you were there, at the house, would you cut costs with a roommate by each having your own dial up maybe? (dial up  oy vey :lol I'm just saying--rather than thinking of her as "your wife" how would you act if you had a roommate there who was paying half mortgage as rent? Would you remove your network maybe and connect straight into the wall somehow? 

Do what you would do if a GUY roommate lived with you.


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## Lazarus

She needs a wake up call. Cut subsidising her lifestyle.

JAR needs to take up the interest of the woman from the other town but "just friends" of course. For JAR I think it would mean just that but for the DS "just friends" means something else! 

This would let her know he could be moving on. 

Mrs JAR was jealous when she thought he had girls on the boat on his Facebook pictures. Maybe she needs to be made a little more jealous? 

At the moment it is all give, JAR giving but, take what's on offer away for a short while could be interesting. It would be a gamble and JAR may not want to take the risk.

JAR admits he screwed up and is fighting and many DS would like a LS to do just that because it shows a change in all that was wrong, and JAR deserves a lot of admiration since a LS suffers tremendous pain and hurt because of all the deceitful lies, the sneaky love trysts, the total betrayal by someone proven to be unworthy of a LS' trust.

A taste of freedom on her own paying bills and a LS moving on could be the wake up call necessary for MRS JAR; it might make her understand the reality. Let's face it, if we all understood the reality and devastation of infidelity for both the DS and the LS would it still happen? Would we all take the necessary steps in advance to seek help to avoid the falling off the ladder syndrome. Many people breakup only to later regret what could have been a good relationship with a few amendments to sort the problems. Infidelity causes a lot of damage. It is a violation of the worst kind. 

One friend claims most DS or divorcees lament that they later learned (2 years later or more) that the grass isn't always greener on the other side and wished they had got it sorted long before it went too far. JAR is trying to sort it. Good luck JAR.

It would be good to hear Mrs JARS side of the story, that way we all learn on both sides and this would help both LS and DS.

Will the OM fund her lifestyle or offer better?


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## turnera

They had a separation, and it changed nothing. Right?


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## tamara24

I would get the seperate line just as suggested. Let her know that you ae not supporting her affair. She really should have more respect for your feelings. As far as her fellings go, she will be mad but didn't she break the rule of not having OM in your house while seperated?

I have said before, wifey needs a wake up call. Maybe a shock to her system. Have your lady friend pick you up at your house. You do not need to have a relationship with her and can make that clear over dinner. You can use each other for support.I think wifey will get upset. This is a consequence of HER choice to not attempt to fix the marraige. You can still stay true to your wife and have dinner withh a friend. When she is blatenly ordering lingerie in front of you and email/texting him,she is showing very little respect for you. I think she might see Jar a little differently if she realizes Jar is not going to pine away for her. It is almost like she is punishing Jar by doing these things in front of him. 

Jar, you have to be at peace with how you handle this. We can give you advice but what. You hold in your heart and how you come to terms with it for you,that is all that counts!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

Hello Jar,

I’m a newbie at this site and I have nearly read all the posts you have put on this site. And I have to say part of it is brave and part denial and lastly of course emotional. I’m married now but my previous relationship I was with someone for seven years from the age of 18-26. We lived together and he cheated on me two years in our relationship, later on I find out that he was seriously dating another girl for four years of our relationship. 

On top of he was talking to girls online, seeing other girls at his job whatever he can get his hands on. Our whole relationship was one big rollercoaster I tried to trust him and some days were good some were not it was like I had given him the reigns to determine my emotions, I had given in without even realizing I was giving him the power to end the relationship without fully thinking of what I wanted but mostly what I needed. Sometimes what we want is not what he necessarily need. 

I repeat sometimes what want is not what we need. It’s what malcom x said one time is true to date A man that doesn’t stand for something will fall for anything.”

I was in love with my ex I wanted to get married with him have kids the whole thing, but he didn’t want that and as much as I wasn’t trying to force him the fact that I still stayed with him I still forced him in my own way. A dear friend of mine told me you know when you had enough. 

It’s not enough for you to recognize tha she isn’t happy with the situation, you should have stayed in your home you should have not moved back in your only tormenting yourself. Her lingerie packages, the holidays, the internet, the facebook the dreams. Etc. 

You know when I decided I had enough I was scared but I knew I deserve better two months after our break up I would meet my future husband. My true soulmate, sometimes people are like buffers in life they prepare you for something else. I realize now that everything in my life THEN and everything my ex put me through prepared me for someone who treats me like a queen. 

He came from a dysfunctional marriage himself his wife didn’t appreciate anything he did for her. Then he found someone who did.

Jar life is soo short, the funeral and the car accident is a wake up call everyday is new promise a new start a new life. The house is a nice house a beautiful home and if you choose to stay fine, but don’t stay with her you MAY think that staying with her will ignite the guilt will ignite some sort of recognition for her actions maybe even reconciliation. I love music it help me get through it you remind me of that song by Cold play fix you please listen to it. I have been there. I hoped that you listen to it Really listen to it. 

I was blinded my love not what was practical. If it wasn’t for me throwing in the towel with my ex I would have never probably met my future husband because I couldn’t let go of my past. It sounds to me that your changed for the better and she has changed for maybe the worst or just something different.

I hope you made those changes for you and you alone and not for her for they will be in vain. Sometimes our desires are so strong that we lose sight on what matters, happiness matters happiness always matters. Tommorrow is not promised to anybody don’t take that for granted I know you fully intended to take your vows seriously. I’m sure she did too but people change. Sometimes those changes are to our disliking. 

It has been a year correct she is in love with someone else, that is why when she is nice to you before she meets him. It is not a fog or a phase she is in love don’t try to compare yourself to him or do any of the things that are unhealthy. I have been there. You need to slowly separate yourself from that entire situation and I don’t mean just one day or two days or even a week. 

I mean when was the last time someone gave you a meaningful hug, a brush on the cheek a loving look a kiss on the lips, something meaningful. Besides deep down you can’t trust her after this anyway the bridge has been made really think about that. Her family know about him, her friends every aspect of her life everyone knows of him and still she stays. She must have taken a lot of heat for doing that. I mean a lot. By then you would have thought she caved and stopped but didn’t. 

All you do is worry about her but you never really just look at what you want for the future without her because obviously she is already doing that. I hope everything works out for you but I know for a fact she will continue with her choices and you should go along and do something take your LIFE back. Life is too short to be living in limbo.

-Kris


----------



## tamara24

Jar,

Life is short but you will know when your ready to quit,you will know when you decide enough is enough.Until that time comes,do what you feel you need to do. Then you will have the peace to know that there are no regrets, or should I have done this or that?

Sometimes that is more important in the long run for you than jumping because life is too short. You are doing a great job, don't forget that.


----------



## krismimo

All I'm saying is you know when you had enough, but honestly enough already. You can't make anyone love you, it might sound cheesy or cliche but at this point you have to be willing to love yourself More in this situation.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

I have to agree with krismimo, enough already. She wronged you and you seem to be asking for more at this point. I understand that it may be difficult to shake off the effects of this but I'd have start trying by now. I don't know how long this "fog" lasts but I think this is just who she is right now, I don't know what her upbringing was like because her family sounds cool from how you talk about them but this is who she is to me. Listen, you had your faults but you weren't the one who went through this whole process of courtship, dating, commiting to each other, signing documents, standing before God and promising yourself to another person through sickness and health and all that stuff just to later say "I take it back." You sound like you've learned from this and improved yourself, she hasn't. The internet thing was too disrespectful, she can't even act like it's your house too. She's wronged you and acts like you're the villain, if there's ever a case where I've done anything egregious to someone and it's brought to my attention, there's only one solution. I stop doing it by any means necessary. Again, I'm not saying break your wedding vows(you'll lose the moral high ground for one thing) but maybe it's time to get back to ones and move on because, even if you don't want to, she has. You're now a better person for the next relationship or, if you're still available and still into her, you can probably start again in few years because I can pretty much guarantee you that she will be. He has to know that she's married at this point and any man that will knowingly snake another man's wife doesn't make a dollar if you gave him fifty cents. There's a saying, how you meet them is how you'll lose them and people always get what's coming to them. Their whole relationship is built on indecency and, if he somehow doesn't know about you, it's based on a lie. A relationship like that can't last, still, it's up to you, you're a grown man who can make his own decisions and I could be wrong but this is just another perspective.


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## karole

Jar, I come on this board everyday just to read your thread. It has touched me deeply reading through your troubles and trials. You sound like a wonderful man. I am certainly not qualified to give anybody any advice as far as marriages go; but, Jar, you have done everything humanly possible to save your marriage and it's obvious she wants no part of it. Sometimes what we want and what is meant to be are not the same thing. It is time to let it go and get on with your life. In all honesty Jar, do you *really *want her back at this point after all that she's done to you and put you through? You deserve much better. One day when you have moved on with your life and have someone who loves you and appreciates you for YOU -just the way you are, your now wife will realize just how lucky she was to have had you. I am wishing the best for you Jar.


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## turnera

You can still divorce someone and live in the same house until it's done.


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## jar

Thanks guys for the comments. What can I say all of you are right? 

I completely understand the reality of my situation. I don’t think I am in denial about that one.

I will admit there is not a whole lot of love left for my wife. It is a struggle everyday to remember just one good thing about our marriage.

I believe that part of being married is giving your spouse the benefit of the doubt even if they don’t do the same for you. At this point that is all I am trying to do. I set a goal for June 1 to give up and at this point I am sticking with my plan. That makes one year since the day I left home and that is a good long time.

It would be interesting if my wife posted on here so she could share her side of the story. I realize that usually when I post it is about the negative stuff. Most days are generally pretty pleasant for me at this point. There is very little that triggers me at this point. I feel like I have finally got my feelings and emotions in check and leveled off. I haven’t even needed to go see my therapist in over a month.

So I look at it this way I am just hanging out in my own house. Wife does her thing I do my thing. Some times we talk and interact and some times we don’t. 

I thought I would share something that I got a chuckle out of last night. This particular experience has made me realize I think I actually feel sorry for my wife.

Last night when I arrived home there was a large pink box of these really fancy cupcakes sitting on the counter? They were sent from some famous bakery from where the OM lives now. I am sure that these cost a fortune to ship.

I asked wife where did the cupcakes come from and she begins to tell me about the bakery. I guess they have a TV show to. I said oh that is really interesting. She was rather frigidity during this conversation. Obviously the other man sent them. Wife doesn’t order stuff like this. Wife has been eating really healthy losing weight and working out almost every night. In fact I told her how proud I was that she was sticking to this so diligently the other night. So back to the story. I said hey I am really surprised you ordered these cupcakes since you have been eating so healthy and working out so much. I said it’s not like you to splurge on such a thing. Wife got really squirmy at this point and stuttered etc. Finally she just said rant I don’t want to talk about it.

At this pint I realized these were from the other man. He obviously doesn’t know how serious wife is about her eating and health at this point. I also realized that she didn’t appreciate this gift what so ever, after all this she still can’t just say OM got them. She still has to come up with a lie or stories must be difficult to live this way constantly. 

So the best part is this morning the cupcakes were gone. She got rid of them….lol

Last night facebook post from wife said the following……Seriously can I please be oh I dunno 5 again??? That seems like a good age to have fun.

Seems wife is stressed out and at this point I don’t think a lot of it has to do with me. Lol

JAR


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Thanks guys for the comments. What can I say all of you are right?
> 
> I completely understand the reality of my situation. I don’t think I am in denial about that one.
> 
> I will admit there is not a whole lot of love left for my wife. It is a struggle everyday to remember just one good thing about our marriage.
> 
> I believe that part of being married is giving your spouse the benefit of the doubt even if they don’t do the same for you. At this point that is all I am trying to do. I set a goal for June 1 to give up and at this point I am sticking with my plan. That makes one year since the day I left home and that is a good long time.
> 
> It would be interesting if my wife posted on here so she could share her side of the story. I realize that usually when I post it is about the negative stuff. Most days are generally pretty pleasant for me at this point. There is very little that triggers me at this point. I feel like I have finally got my feelings and emotions in check and leveled off. I haven’t even needed to go see my therapist in over a month.
> 
> So I look at it this way I am just hanging out in my own house. Wife does her thing I do my thing. Some times we talk and interact and some times we don’t.
> 
> I thought I would share something that I got a chuckle out of last night. This particular experience has made me realize I think I actually feel sorry for my wife.
> 
> Last night when I arrived home there was a large pink box of these really fancy cupcakes sitting on the counter? They were sent from some famous bakery from where the OM lives now. I am sure that these cost a fortune to ship.
> 
> I asked wife where did the cupcakes come from and she begins to tell me about the bakery. I guess they have a TV show to. I said oh that is really interesting. She was rather frigidity during this conversation. Obviously the other man sent them. Wife doesn’t order stuff like this. Wife has been eating really healthy losing weight and working out almost every night. In fact I told her how proud I was that she was sticking to this so diligently the other night. So back to the story. I said hey I am really surprised you ordered these cupcakes since you have been eating so healthy and working out so much. I said it’s not like you to splurge on such a thing. Wife got really squirmy at this point and stuttered etc. Finally she just said rant I don’t want to talk about it.
> 
> At this pint I realized these were from the other man. He obviously doesn’t know how serious wife is about her eating and health at this point. I also realized that she didn’t appreciate this gift what so ever, after all this she still can’t just say OM got them. She still has to come up with a lie or stories must be difficult to live this way constantly.
> 
> So the best part is this morning the cupcakes were gone. She got rid of them….lol
> 
> Last night facebook post from wife said the following……Seriously can I please be oh I dunno 5 again??? That seems like a good age to have fun.
> 
> Seems wife is stressed out and at this point I don’t think a lot of it has to do with me. Lol
> 
> JAR


I can kinda see where this gonna end up, just remember everything that's happened up to this point, that you're the man, and, to quote a proverb, make your next move your best move. At any rate, has she mentioned anything else going on in her life that she may be anguished about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## axw

jar said:


> AXW
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read….I really like Harleys books His Needs her Needs. That book really taught me a lot.


Jar, thanks for the recommendation. We downloaded the book to our phones earlier this week and are reading it and working through the questions together. Although we're both very happy in our marriage and already understand many of the concepts to a successful marriage, such as the Five Love Languages and the Love Bank, we're both learning about each other and even about ourselves. We've just started chapter 5 and I feel that as long as we continue to work toward keeping our marriage strong, hopefully we won't ever have to work toward repairing it.

I can't even begin to imagine how you feel about everything that has happened to you, but I really do think you've become a better person because of it. It's really sad that it had to come down to this, but at least you (unlike most) have seen which of your actions or inactions have helped lead to this (even if she was the one who made that decision to be unfaithful). And even better you took that and learned from it! That's such a positive spin on such a negative event! I don't know if your current marriage will work out....you've tried and unless she tries too, it just isn't going to happen. That said, I read that you see yourself at some point in the future happily married and settled down, even if it isn't with her. Well given all that you've learned, if it does eventually come down to you finding someone else and remarrying, you are going to have a VERY successful relationship. And if you can get her to invest the same way you have by having her read these books and understanding these concepts, you are going to be in a way happier marriage than you had before.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying to give up on your wife--you have set a date so stick with it, that's admirable. I'm just pointing out that there is life after her and in the end, you can say you've done everything you could and have become a totally new and better person as a result. I really look up to you Jar and everything I've read on this thread alone has really prompted me to take some proactive steps to try to keep myself or my wife out of your shoes. I thank you so much for sharing as much as you do with everyone here at TAM. And the same to you AC--your advice has been rock solid and I like how you have made both general and specific comments to help people other than Jar who may not be vocal but are going through similar stuff.


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## axw

One quick question for thought. What do you think would happen if you accidentally left page one of this topic up on a computer where your wife could see it? Do you think she'd read it? What do you think would happen if she did? It might make her see just how hard you've been working on yourself and really see the true you. I know you've said some stuff that you may not want her to see, but what do you really have to lose at this point? It may just make her see her own faults and lift the fog some.

Anyone else think this would be a good idea or am I just totally wrong on this one?


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## Lazarus

47,298 views and Mrs JAR doesn't know! She was worried about what the hairdresser thought but, crivens she should be really worried about what people feel here on reading JAR's plight to win her back. 

There is the anonymity on the site of course, but still....

She is acting childish and hasn't learned anything from her selishness. The damage and hurt she is inflicting on her husband is her way of punishing JAR for perceived hurt (rightly or wrongly) inflicted upon her but she will be the loser in the end. She just doesn't realise it...yet.

Her husband has changed..for the better. Another woman will benefit if she doesn't waken up soon.

Most woman would die for a man who has tried the way JAR has tried to save his marriage. 

Either she is revelling in the fact that her husband is trying hard or she doesn't care about how she treats another human being, in which case, she may have a narsacistic personality.

If she read this thread and didn't care and only worried about how people viewed her and was still dismissive of her husband then she would appear to be wandering into the realms of a sociopath.

Whatever happens, the record is here for the future and when she eventually softens (and she will) she will have lost her husband and only then will she realise what it is like to have been loved and lost.

There are signs of the old Mrs JAR surfacing throughout but with the OM in the background she isn't seeing the light. The affair won't last (its basis a bed of deceit) but by that time JAR may have moved on.

Still, a little bit of flirting on JAR's part and less availability may still be needed to waken her up..but she is still in the affair fog. 

In the end, she may need to buy a lot of these cup cakes on her own to drown her sorrows in years to come and it will take her a week or more to read all about how her husband really truly loved her and what he did to win her back.

I hope it ends up good for JAR.

It would be good to hear how she wandered into the arms of another man and her experience (and pain, if any) throughout her adulteress affair. How she felt and made her decisions to risk it all to follow her path into the unknown.

It is common for affair fog to make people do some really silly, stupid things.

The LS need to learn more about the feelings of the DS.

Maybe it is just simply the fact that one wants a change? 

Perhaps it is a form of terrible punishment for perceived wrongs in a relationship? The latter of course is childish, immature behaviour. A child doesn't care who it hurts or harms so long as it gets what it wants in the end.


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## OhGeesh

Lazarus I disagree with ^^^^^ that on so many levels. I have seen many people have a affair and stay together with the OM/OW. There is no fog it's been over 1 YR, so I would definitley say there is a shot of them staying together. There are people that have gotten married in less time than that.

Other than that it seems to me that JAR's wife has serious resentment issues that killed her love for JAR. Again we don't know the whole story, but she seems long long gone going by what he is posting. Judging by what he has posted there is nothing JAR can do, at least that's the way I see it. I don't see this as OM driven in the sense of a fog, euphoria, or the newness of a relationship because it has been over 1yr probably going on 1 1/2 now. I think she wants out and has given JAR no reason to think anything but that.

Most men dare I say 99.99999% of men would have moved on by now. JAR seems to be holding fast.... which is his decision. His decision to honor the "vow" even if the marriage in reality is long gone. I can't say if that's the right or wrong thing to do only time will tell and only JAR will know the answer.

I do agree that most wives would jump all over a man like JAR going by what he has posted. I'm sure he will be fine and find someone new the waters are deep the fish plentiful. His wife is long gone imo and at this point I don't even see why you want her back!! 

JAR MOVE ON THE SOONER THE BETTER IMO!!


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## SteppingStones

I think that what Jar is doing is very honorable and admirable. Regardless of what it leads to, he is doing his part and upholding his beliefs and vows in a way nobody would even think of doing. 

At the point even some of the above posters are shaking their heads and saying move on, Jar is holding steadfast. And THAT is true loyalty. When you continue doing what you have set out to do, even when everyone is telling you to give up, quit, move on, etc.

So this is to Jar:

Don't let the people telling you "enough is enough" "move on asap" etc get to you. They may have the best intentions, but those words will drag you down and creep into your head and make you doubt what you are doing. You want to make it to June 1? Do it. And don't let anyone persuade you otherwise. 

At that point you will have fulfilled what you set out to do and can feel good about that fact and the fact that you KNOW you've held up your end of the bargain. Everyone can see how you have changed and improved and really tried you best.

Not that you would give up so easily before your deadline. I firmly believe you are determined to meet it. However, those words can be a temptation on a bad day. 

To the rest of you: 

Regardless of how you feel about it, or what you would do or have done at this point -- let's continue to show JAR support. Stop shaking your heads and saying it's time to move on. June 1 is the goal -- let's keep cheering him towards it. Even if he is the last man in the race, why stand by and discourage him? Yeah it's a long shot, yeah she's checked out, yeah he's fighting a losing battle...but it's still not over, so let's not give up on him (her), k?


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## MisguidedMiscreant

SteppingStones said:


> I think that what Jar is doing is very honorable and admirable. Regardless of what it leads to, he is doing his part and upholding his beliefs and vows in a way nobody would even think of doing.
> 
> At the point even some of the above posters are shaking their heads and saying move on, Jar is holding steadfast. And THAT is true loyalty. When you continue doing what you have set out to do, even when everyone is telling you to give up, quit, move on, etc.
> 
> So this is to Jar:
> 
> Don't let the people telling you "enough is enough" "move on asap" etc get to you. They may have the best intentions, but those words will drag you down and creep into your head and make you doubt what you are doing. You want to make it to June 1? Do it. And don't let anyone persuade you otherwise.
> 
> At that point you will have fulfilled what you set out to do and can feel good about that fact and the fact that you KNOW you've held up your end of the bargain. Everyone can see how you have changed and improved and really tried you best.
> 
> Not that you would give up so easily before your deadline. I firmly believe you are determined to meet it. However, those words can be a temptation on a bad day.
> 
> To the rest of you:
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about it, or what you would do or have done at this point -- let's continue to show JAR support. Stop shaking your heads and saying it's time to move on. June 1 is the goal -- let's keep cheering him towards it. Even if he is the last man in the race, why stand by and discourage him? Yeah it's a long shot, yeah she's checked out, yeah he's fighting a losing battle...but it's still not over, so let's not give up on him (her), k?


I just don't want him to put himself through this anymore, his actions are commendable but hasn't she put him through enough?

JAR is doing what he's been put on this Earth by God to do, to learn, grow, and become a better person and she's failing at this everyday. We all fail more often than not at this but the point is to try and she isn't. His story, though I've never been in this particular situation, is similar to mine and that's "lets see how you do when you don't have me to kick around anymore." Let's she how she does. Remember, their relationship is built upon deceit and indecency, it's like a house built upon sand.

I'm more interested to hear about this Facebook post of hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteppingStones

> I just don't want him to put himself through this anymore, his actions are commendable but hasn't she put him through enough?


I understand the rest of what you are saying -- but the above quote is exactly what I am talking about.

Who are we to say when enough is enough? 

Jar has set a date and I think as the supporters, encouragers, etc. that we are here on TAM, we should be cheering him on in meeting his goal rather than telling him to quit. 

In the end it doesn't matter what the "I"s want Jar to do, it doesn't matter if we think its crazy, that enough is enough, that she's proven she's not going to changer her colors, etc.....what matters is Jar doing what Jar has decided to do -- and he's decided to see this through until June 1.

So we should respect and support that.


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## turnera

Jar has a plan. That is all that matters.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

SteppingStones said:


> I understand the rest of what you are saying -- but the above quote is exactly what I am talking about.
> 
> Who are we to say when enough is enough?
> 
> Jar has set a date and I think as the supporters, encouragers, etc. that we are here on TAM, we should be cheering him on in meeting his goal rather than telling him to quit.
> 
> In the end it doesn't matter what the "I"s want Jar to do, it doesn't matter if we think its crazy, that enough is enough, that she's proven she's not going to changer her colors, etc.....what matters is Jar doing what Jar has decided to do -- and he's decided to see this through until June 1.
> 
> So we should respect and support that.


Hey, I do support him she doesn't. She doesn't support him and she's married to him. 
It is his choice though but there's a saying, "Experience is the teacher of fools." He learned, she hasn't. Leave her to her own devices and maybe experience will teach her one day. I wasn't calling him a fool, by the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Thanks everyone for your responses. In my life I have many people giving me the same advice. Some say just get it over with it how much more can you take and others seem to respect what I am up to and don’t say anything negative.

I am going to stick to my dead line of June 1 best I can.

That face book comment I never did find out what that was all about last week.

So in the past several days I have noticed a few observations with my wife I thought I would share.

She hasn’t been withdrawn in a few weeks now.

A package was on the table this weekend from a woman’s volunteering organization. Before I got a chance to mention it the box disappeared. Wife has found out that I have been volunteering some lately.

I started eating healthy and loosing weight. In the past month wife has started eating healthy and watching her calorie intake.

I have been working out 6 days a week. Wife started working out 5 days a week.

Like I said wife hasn’t been so withdrawn. Other night I came home to find the drive way snow blowed.

The other week I found some of my laundry folded.

Sunday night while I was snow blowing. I came in to find my dishes done and put away.

I have been talking to wife about the dog. Dog has gotten up every night at 2am for the past month and I end up letting her out.

Wife started letting dog out at 10pm every night. She also makes sure the gate is up in the dog’s area so she can’t wonder around the house and bother us.

A few other observations. Wife’s seems interested in what I am up to.

If I am playing with my phone in front of her she ask me what I am I doing.

Other weekend friend of mine and I spent the day together and went to the city. I used wife gps. She looked at the addresses at some point and asked why I had gone there.

Wife came in my room the other night to look at my little fish tank. She noticed I had more stuff in it. She said when did you get those fish and where did you big fish tank disappear to. (I gave it away)

Wife asked me to watch dog this weekend. I told her I couldn’t. She is going to see the OM. I am heading home to go snowmobiling with my brother. Poker run this weekend. 

Last weekend we were both home together and we cleaned the house together. After I asked wife if she wanted to go to the movies with me. She actually considered it but ultimately turned me down an hour later.

Wife mentioned again that my room was bothering her. So I asked for her input on how to arrange it so it would look better. She gave me a few suggestions. I followed through with the suggestions.

Saturday we both made our own lunch and wound up eating together at the kitchen table. I asked wife what’s new in your life. What’s going well for you? What are you excited about lately. Her response was nothing. So I talked about a number of things that are going on with me. She was starting to open up but ended up running the conversation by asking when we can go back over the possession list again. I usually shut down pretty bad after comments like that. 

By Sunday afternoon wife wanted to know if I was going anywhere for super bowel. I simply responded yup and left shortly after to go spend time with my friend and his family.

Wife does not lock her bedroom door anymore either.

So that is the latest events. Just some small things I have noticed in the past week or two. I realize it doesn’t mean anything but it seems like wife is starting to act a little normal again.

It hit me this morning that we have a court planning session in 3 weeks. I guess that is my next thing to get ready for.

So things at home aren’t all bad depressing and miserable.

JAR


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses. In my life I have many people giving me the same advice. Some say just get it over with it how much more can you take and others seem to respect what I am up to and don’t say anything negative.
> 
> I am going to stick to my dead line of June 1 best I can.
> 
> That face book comment I never did find out what that was all about last week.
> 
> So in the past several days I have noticed a few observations with my wife I thought I would share.
> 
> She hasn’t been withdrawn in a few weeks now.
> 
> A package was on the table this weekend from a woman’s volunteering organization. Before I got a chance to mention it the box disappeared. Wife has found out that I have been volunteering some lately.
> 
> I started eating healthy and loosing weight. In the past month wife has started eating healthy and watching her calorie intake.
> 
> I have been working out 6 days a week. Wife started working out 5 days a week.
> 
> Like I said wife hasn’t been so withdrawn. Other night I came home to find the drive way snow blowed.
> 
> The other week I found some of my laundry folded.
> 
> Sunday night while I was snow blowing. I came in to find my dishes done and put away.
> 
> I have been talking to wife about the dog. Dog has gotten up every night at 2am for the past month and I end up letting her out.
> 
> Wife started letting dog out at 10pm every night. She also makes sure the gate is up in the dog’s area so she can’t wonder around the house and bother us.
> 
> A few other observations. Wife’s seems interested in what I am up to.
> 
> If I am playing with my phone in front of her she ask me what I am I doing.
> 
> Other weekend friend of mine and I spent the day together and went to the city. I used wife gps. She looked at the addresses at some point and asked why I had gone there.
> 
> Wife came in my room the other night to look at my little fish tank. She noticed I had more stuff in it. She said when did you get those fish and where did you big fish tank disappear to. (I gave it away)
> 
> Wife asked me to watch dog this weekend. I told her I couldn’t. She is going to see the OM. I am heading home to go snowmobiling with my brother. Poker run this weekend.
> 
> Last weekend we were both home together and we cleaned the house together. After I asked wife if she wanted to go to the movies with me. She actually considered it but ultimately turned me down an hour later.
> 
> Wife mentioned again that my room was bothering her. So I asked for her input on how to arrange it so it would look better. She gave me a few suggestions. I followed through with the suggestions.
> 
> Saturday we both made our own lunch and wound up eating together at the kitchen table. I asked wife what’s new in your life. What’s going well for you? What are you excited about lately. Her response was nothing. So I talked about a number of things that are going on with me. She was starting to open up but ended up running the conversation by asking when we can go back over the possession list again. I usually shut down pretty bad after comments like that.
> 
> By Sunday afternoon wife wanted to know if I was going anywhere for super bowel. I simply responded yup and left shortly after to go spend time with my friend and his family.
> 
> Wife does not lock her bedroom door anymore either.
> 
> So that is the latest events. Just some small things I have noticed in the past week or two. I realize it doesn’t mean anything but it seems like wife is starting to act a little normal again.
> 
> It hit me this morning that we have a court planning session in 3 weeks. I guess that is my next thing to get ready for.
> 
> So things at home aren’t all bad depressing and miserable.
> 
> JAR


Don't mention the Super Bowl, please. 

Sounds like things are ok, proceed with caution though. 

Here we go, Steelers! Here we...damn it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jem5

Im sure she still loved you but knew you deserved better. She couldnt stop it and knew she could get away with it. Obviously there was some issue in there she wasnt telling you. Sometimes if you love someone you have to know that they deserve more and that they dont deserve you doing things like that to them. Im sure she felt a mixture of that.


----------



## AmImad

Jar,

I wish you every luck in the world. I am hoping against hope she realises just how much she has there with you and that you've stood by her. 

I am living by this at the moment:

There may be times when you feel
as if you have taken a million steps towards
your dreams, and acted on your plans, only to find
yourself in the same place that you began from.
At times like this, you must not give up.

You must continue on. Though you may feel
lost, bewildered, and alone, continue to believe
in yourself. Do not allow discouragement and
doubt to blur your vision and wash away
your dreams. Visualize your way beyond the
detours, standstills, and obstacles.

You will realize your dreams. You have
worked hard and taken so many productive
steps in a positive direction that you are bound
to succeed. Whatever the hurt of the moment
may be, it will pass. Tomorrow is always a
new dawn. Today, you must pause, rest, catch
your breath, and then look ahead. Each step
will bring you closer to your dreams. The
rainbows and the love that you deserve are in
sight. Happiness is just around the next turn. 

I just wanted to share it.

*hugs*

x


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

I don't see it as a big deal. You sren't going to get her to stop. It has to stop itself. If there is a legitimate reason, say financial, to let her pay it herself... let her pay. But it would just seem bitter. That is not you. As I recall some of the basics, there are no love deposits that you will get credit for until she is open to you again. However, you can drive her further away with the love busters. The affair will fail at some point. You are a great guy. You didn't make her have the affair. That is her personal flaw. Love is easier kept then recovered. But it can be. Stay the course.


----------



## jessi

Jar,

Just stopping in to say hi and I'm glad to hear you are at peace and moving on with life. 
The living situation isn't ideal but it does seem like there might be some softening with your wife's attitude, but Jar, it doesn't sound like she is going to change her mind and return to the marriage.
At some point you will have to decide when enough is enough and you can then really move on with your new life.......
Until that decision is made you will be where you are at.........you will know when that day comes........enjoy the dogs and your friends Jar, it's been a wonderful to watch you emerge into a better man........the next woman you have a relationship with Jar will truly appreciate all the self reflection and awareness you now have in your life..............
There are so many wonderful women out there that deserve a wonderful man like you..............
I suggest you give one of then an opportunity to make Jar happy..............
take care.........jessi


----------



## Lazarus

OhGeesh said:


> Lazarus I disagree with ^^^^^ that on so many levels. I have seen many people have a affair and stay together with the OM/OW. There is no fog it's been over 1 YR, so I would definitley say there is a shot of them staying together. There are people that have gotten married in less time than that.


That's okay. I am fine with the fact you disagree on so many levels. Stats usually show a very poor statistic for affairs but then again, stats can be manipulated! The latest was 25% which seemed much higher than most. Can Relationships That Start as Affairs Succeed? | About Affairs



OhGeesh said:


> Other than that it seems to me that JAR's wife has serious resentment issues that killed her love for JAR. Again we don't know the whole story, but she seems long long gone going by what he is posting. .



How does one break down serious resentment issues? 

Could JAR overcome them if he could say what he thinks is the main issue that caused serious resentment? Is it an accumulation of lots of small things resulting in massive resentment much too overwhelming to tackle? 

Could others contribute anything that has worked for them to breakdown serious resentments that could help JAR chip away or blow wide open any resentment in order to start healing?

He has a time limit 1st June. Who knows, it could be extended if things improve. I mean, she folded some of his laundry...that's telling and is nosey and interested when he's texting. She's not dead in the water, yet.



OhGeesh said:


> I don't see this as OM driven in the sense of a fog, euphoria, or the newness of a relationship because it has been over 1yr


Is there a time limit on affair fog? How can one distinguish if it is still current, or long gone?


----------



## OhGeesh

^^^^^^^
We just agree to disagree. We will see how this pans out for JAR either he wins her back or doesn't and moves on. We can agree to wish JAR all the best even if we don't see eye to eye on what is currently happening or what should or shouldn't be done.


----------



## notreadytoquit

AmImad said:


> Jar,
> 
> 
> 
> I am living by this at the moment:
> 
> There may be times when you feel
> as if you have taken a million steps towards
> your dreams, and acted on your plans, only to find
> yourself in the same place that you began from.
> At times like this, you must not give up.
> 
> You must continue on. Though you may feel
> lost, bewildered, and alone, continue to believe
> in yourself. Do not allow discouragement and
> doubt to blur your vision and wash away
> your dreams. Visualize your way beyond the
> detours, standstills, and obstacles.
> 
> You will realize your dreams. You have
> worked hard and taken so many productive
> steps in a positive direction that you are bound
> to succeed. Whatever the hurt of the moment
> may be, it will pass. Tomorrow is always a
> new dawn. Today, you must pause, rest, catch
> your breath, and then look ahead. Each step
> will bring you closer to your dreams. The
> rainbows and the love that you deserve are in
> sight. Happiness is just around the next turn.
> 
> I just wanted to share it.
> 
> *hugs*
> 
> x


Is this a poem you wrote? I am stealing it if you don't mind.

Jar good luck, and keep us posted what happens. You deserve much better than what you have now and you are going to find a woman who will treat you respectfully and love you for who you are.


----------



## AmImad

No, sadly I didn't. But it is a wonderful poem x


----------



## jar

Thanks everyone for the support.

This morning when I woke up wife was just about to leave she was making some tea for her self and getting the dog ready to go.

I told her I wasn’t going to be around to watch the dog this weekend. So she is putting the dog in the kennel for the next few days.

So before she left. I looked at her and said I hope you have a really nice weekend with the OM. She kept on about what she was doing and said I don’t appreciate that comment and it is none of your business.

She did glance up at me but still really could look me in the eye.

I think I did it to get under her skin mostly. Know use in pretending like I don’t know where she is going.

I would say knowing her that comment will have her cranked up most of the day….lol

Lazurs….You insight is interesting and thank you for posting that article.

Jar


----------



## turnera

Good. IMO, there's nothing wrong with stating what you know and reminding them they are showing a lack of character.


----------



## jar

I wanted to check in. Like I mentioned on Friday wife snuck off to see other man.

She posted on face book that she went and saw an amazing play on Saturday. OM lives in DC now. I think that was her retaliation for my Friday morning comments.

We had our first house viewing yesterday. As many of you know I have mixed feelings about this.

Wife hasn’t been withdrawn from the world like she has been for about a month now. Her behavior has changed a lot in the past week. For the past week wife actually initiates some conversation with me. It is a big change. 

Wife has been eating well and working out and it is something that we share in common right now. I think that she is starting to get her self on the right track.

I am starting to see glimpses of my old wife. Happy talkative cheerful etc….This is a big change from the past several months.

Obviously the affair is still going on. Seems she goes to the city with Om and has fun. Then comes home. Still a lot of cake eating going on that’s for sure. 

Some of you are going to say now JAR don’t get your hopes up etc. She is just being nice because you are about to get a divorce. Some of you have mentioned that your x spouse were very nice just be for the divorce. I am not getting my hopes up I am just reporting in on the mood change. She could just be having a bipolar moment and be a completely snot when I get home today. I am just glad she seems to be a little happier lately.

We have a court planning session coming up at the beginning of March.

Originally wife said she was moving out in March. I see no movement on this front what so ever.

In terms of me. I am doing pretty well. Emotions seem to be staying in check and leveled off. A typical day for me is work home dinner exercise and if I am lucky about 45 minutes of relaxation time before bed. Usually wife is some where in the house doing her own thing as well.

This past weekend I had a good time did some snowmobiling and hit the bars Saturday night with my brother. I met my new friend who’s a girl for the first time Saturday night. She is the one going through a divorce as well. She is also a therapist. She is very interesting and has a pretty good sense of humor.

JAR


----------



## turnera

If I were you I'd be paying a PI to be getting good evidence of her cheating. You know, for the divorce proceedings.


----------



## land2634

turnera said:


> If I were you I'd be paying a PI to be getting good evidence of her cheating. You know, for the divorce proceedings.


Especially since they still live in the same house and she continues to flaunt it in his face.

Jar, glad you were able to call an apple and apple when you knew she was going to see the OM. Just as an observation, I do think that she feels it's easier on her conscience when she's nice to you (and consequently she feels you won't ask her as many questions). No matter what she's really thinking or feeling, you're being the person YOU need to be whether she's in your life or not. You know that, many of us can see it, and in the end, you'll come out smelling much better.


----------



## turnera

You know, I'd also be pointing out to her family and close friends every time she 'sneaks off' to see OM.


----------



## krismimo

I'am sorry I disagree it's a mood point, at this point constantly trying to tell on her and more than likely the family is alread already aware of the situation just doesn't do any good. Honestly nothing is going to keep her from seeing him even after he moved to another state. What truly matters is that Jar is at peace with his decisions and realisticially approaches the situation at hand. So far I think he is doing just fine. But goingg out the way to tell on her and the marriage is dissolved only to a certain extent makes him look more desperate and possibly rock the boat with her a bit too much if they're trying to live together until they sell the house.


----------



## turnera

*shrug* That's fine for you. Not what I would accept.


----------



## krismimo

Yeah but that is the thing Tunera. it's not you it's him. He doesn't have to take anyones advice. To be honest addressing (Jar) it is more important to focus on you like you have been doing which is awesome you sound indepedent strong more self aware. And even though your wife has had her share of faults I don't think it is wise nor a good idea going to the family, over and over and over and over is sort of cruel to them they don't want to hear that mess every time she leaves to go see him just sounds vindictive after awhile, which I think at one point you did deserve to be a little bit, but you didn't choose that road, you decided to focus and make a better you. Good luck to you Jar this is going to be tough.


----------



## Lazarus

JAR: Is there something, a sport you like such as fishing, treking, hill climbing, tracking wildlife, humanitarian or the like?

Some groups require volunteers for tracking a threatened species or help restore something lost or needed in a remote community. That could be good for you JAR to help you meet people with a zest for an interesting life and thus potentially avoid people likely to hit a bar to get drunk. Sadly, it can be another form of escapism, just like affairs. It isn't the solution to your existing problem, is it?

Consider life's possibilities. There are plenty of them. A new interest if you have none could do you a power of good. It could be a paid for expedition that could help discover a new you in amongst all that is happening in your life. This is just one idea - there are many.
Volunteer Organisations Consider just a weekend, or week or two or more away that allows you to explore other areas of life and who knows, who you will meet and word might get back to Mrs JAR but do it for yourself. 

You might also want to explore some new home drawings or some new house brochures either nearby or in another State. You may leave the odd one lying about in your shared house thus showing Mrs J. that you are considering a new life, a potentially exciting life elsewhere without her. Not too much information, of course but, enough to keep some mystery. Certainly do not leave any information about any planned expeditions. Just do them. Word has a way of getting back somehow, or maybe some uploads on your Facebook? Not sure how Facebook works but you mentioned it before in an earlier post and it had an effect. 

Just consider that life has lots of possibilities and these are not always found in a bar or channel surfing although something to be included but not part of a bigger plan for the future. 

I think you will do well. 

There seens to be stubborness happening here with Mrs Jar and you could raise your game by planning for the next immediate long weekend or vacation that doesn't cost the earth other than your time.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

any updates JAR?


----------



## jar

Not too much of an update…

Wife has been being nice to me…..She is somewhat talkative ask me questions etc…She even showed me a new cook book she got and she has been sharing some of her groceries with me. She is acting much more like old wife…It has me a little on guard she goes in and out of this cycle.

She has continued to keep up with eating well and exercise. I have as well I think in some ways we keep each other motivated in some unspoken way. When I can I complement her on her hard work.

I have come down with another nasty sinus infection. I have been feeling pretty bad for the past several days. Wife gave me some eucalyptus stuff and told me go and relax in the tub for a while I took her advice and it helped some. 

I am finally getting my truck back today from the body shop. Wife is picking me up and bringing me to the body shop to get my truck. 

Met with my attorney last night. We don’t have a court planning session next week. It was canceled. The court/lawyers set up a mediation session for May. We also went through my financial affidavit. Things are going to start moving pretty quick now.

My mom’s bday was last week wife actually did acknowledge it. She told me to wish my mom a happy b day. Her dad’s birthday was last weekend. I sent a card and a gift.

We are supposed to get another nasty snow storm tomorrow so it looks like we are both going to be home for the weekend together. We plan to shovel and clean the house.

I continue to stay pretty level with my emotions
.
Next weekend I am going to volunteer at the bird place again with my friend.

I have been keeping busy with work, excursing, my aquarium stuff, and a machinery restoration project I have been working on for over a year now in my basement. I have been reading a few new architecture books etc. I am ready for boating season.

For the most part we both do our own thing.
Jar


----------



## OhGeesh

Moving forward as I imagined.......great job on staying in shape. Enjoy life it's short...there is someone out there waiting for you!! Best of luck in keeping your emotions in check.


----------



## OhGeesh

You good JAR still rolling with the punches?


----------



## jar

Hey everyone

Its been a while since I have checked in…..I am still rolling with the punches.

Things on my end haven’t been so bad. I have been working on some very exciting products at work that I am enjoying being part of. In my spare time I spend time with my family and friends or at home with my dog. 

I continue to exercise and spend my evenings working on my culinary skills or pursuing a few of my other hobbies.

Wife and I do spend a little time together during the week watching a little TV or talking. She doesn’t really share too much with me what’s going on in her life. She is being very civil. She hasn’t really been very withdrawn for the past several weeks. Every now and again she posts on facebook that she had a terrible day or something. She never indicates this to me or shows it.

Something is changing in her. I see her making efforts to make some positive changes in her life. I have noticed that she has started going back to church among a few other things. She seems less tormented and I am glad to see this. I am actually happy to see this.

I believe that she is going to be making a visit to see the OM in the next week or two.

Other weekend I walked by her room and could see her laptop screen. She was sitting there reading and the Om was sitting there doing something on his end. It seems that is how they hang out. Seems weird to me.

Mediation in May with the lawyers…..We are getting are taxes done next week together. We plan to file as married again this year.

I do get the sense that another shoe is about the drop. Wife has been gone lately in the evenings…I noticed there was take out for two in the fridge when I came home this weekend. I don’t get the sense that the OM is in town either. 

I have also noticed resume paper in our printer and a resume book out. It wouldn’t surprise me if she is going to begin taking steps to find a new job or move out…..

There is a big wall between us. I let her know that I am here and I try to share something about my day when I get home but for the most part we are two roommates that are coming and going.

I have been doing pretty good not a lot gets to me these days. I actually feel better than I have in over a year now.

JAR


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Hey everyone
> 
> Its been a while since I have checked in…..I am still rolling with the punches.
> 
> Things on my end haven’t been so bad. I have been working on some very exciting products at work that I am enjoying being part of. In my spare time I spend time with my family and friends or at home with my dog.
> 
> I continue to exercise and spend my evenings working on my culinary skills or pursuing a few of my other hobbies.
> 
> Wife and I do spend a little time together during the week watching a little TV or talking. She doesn’t really share too much with me what’s going on in her life. She is being very civil. She hasn’t really been very withdrawn for the past several weeks. Every now and again she posts on facebook that she had a terrible day or something. She never indicates this to me or shows it.
> 
> Something is changing in her. I see her making efforts to make some positive changes in her life. I have noticed that she has started going back to church among a few other things. She seems less tormented and I am glad to see this. I am actually happy to see this.
> 
> I believe that she is going to be making a visit to see the OM in the next week or two.
> 
> Other weekend I walked by her room and could see her laptop screen. She was sitting there reading and the Om was sitting there doing something on his end. It seems that is how they hang out. Seems weird to me.
> 
> Mediation in May with the lawyers…..We are getting are taxes done next week together. We plan to file as married again this year.
> 
> I do get the sense that another shoe is about the drop. Wife has been gone lately in the evenings…I noticed there was take out for two in the fridge when I came home this weekend. I don’t get the sense that the OM is in town either.
> 
> I have also noticed resume paper in our printer and a resume book out. It wouldn’t surprise me if she is going to begin taking steps to find a new job or move out…..
> 
> There is a big wall between us. I let her know that I am here and I try to share something about my day when I get home but for the most part we are two roommates that are coming and going.
> 
> I have been doing pretty good not a lot gets to me these days. I actually feel better than I have in over a year now.
> 
> JAR


It's good to hear you hanging in their. Another shoe? My God, what else can she do to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Jar

Just checking in and I am glad you are focusing on yourself. The computer thing is very strange. At least she is being civil.

You have grown so much! Jar, I am so proud of all the changes you have made. Keep up the great job and know we are rooting for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

JAR~

As always it's nice to hear from you. Just based on what you wrote, I'm glad to hear that you sound like you are keeping at your personal growth and goals. 

What strikes me the most, I think, is your wife's apparent lack of...anything. It sounds like her A is dying out (or has at least lost some substantial luster!), and yet she's making no real move to divorce you, move out, change jobs, move by him, or really do anything. My guess is that, like many disloyals, she wants the "cake" of some level of JAR security and wants to "eat it too" of some flirtatious fun. That is to say, right now with you two at the house, she has the "cake" of a pretty good house, a pretty good lifestyle, etc....things which she could not fully provide herself if she were to be divorced and have to do it all on her own. Thus she's in no particular rush. 

At this point, I don't see this arrangement as particularly helping or hurting anything. To be more precise, I doubt that just by being there and being who you are that the marriage will suddenly be saved at the moment or something. She's pretty far gone, and actions the way they are sort of let things continue "status quo". Thus, I don't think it's particularly "helping" the marriage at all--but it may be helping YOU to be in a place you like, with your dog, and even like this, you get some of the benefits of HER (such as some of HER income and a roommate, etc.). On the other hand, I don't see that this arrangement hurts anything in that your plans and intentions are not deterred one bit and neither are hers. 

Wasn't there going to be a court thing in March? And do I remember correctly--didn't she say she was moving out in March? Funny how if you do nothing, March arrives and nothing changes..isn't it?


----------



## jar

Court was supposed to be March 1st ….Planning session

My lawyer had a schedule conflict and couldn’t go so wife’s lawyer and mine worked out an arrangement for a mediation session to happen by mid may.

I have a meeting with my lawyer next week to prepare a response to wife’s divorce decree. 

In terms of splitting up possessions that isn’t really outlined so much in the decree. As you recall wife has been all over me to get our possessions split up. She hasn’t mentioned wanting to work on this again for a few weeks now.

Wife was going to move out by March….I don’t really see anything happening on this front. But what do I know she could have a plan.

Wife and I actually had a nice chat last night…She got up early yesterday and went to church. Ash Wednesday…I couldn’t believe this….First thing she has shared with me in a while. We talked a little about the mass etc. 

We both been working out a lot and eating well. I shared with her the procedure on how to measure your BMI a few nights ago. Last night she asked me to help her with the measurements. 

Shortly after that she went up to her room and spent the evening there with the door shut. 

I think in some ways there is some changes happening in her. I am really happy for this. It seems the fog is lifting and she is getting back to her old self….However it seems like we will more than likely be divorced by early summer unless some sort of miracle or break through happens between now and then.

JAR


----------



## calif_hope

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calif_hope

JAR, have you considered going to church with her....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paramore

I have only followed this thread a bit, how are you doing jar?


----------



## jar

Hey Guys

I have been feeling down in the dumps the past few days. I got my forth sinus infection since fall. I have been feeling miserable since Thursday night. Missed work on Friday. Doctor has me on another round of antibiotics. 

I have been on the couch most of the weekend in a coma. I am feeling better today. I was able to get a few things done around the house. 

Wife took off to her families place for the weekend.

I had plans to spend time with my family as well how ever I felt too miserable to go see them.

I am feeling sorry for my self and pretty lonely these past few days. It has been a while since I have felt like this. I hope it doesn’t last long. Nothing worse than being sick and having no one around to take care of you.

Wife came home tonight she worked out and has been in her room since then. I imagine the webcams are going tonight. I did invite her to watch a movie with me….( Jack ass 3)

She told me she gets her yearly bonus this week. I wonder what she will do with it. It is enough for deposit on apartment. She also told me she had a bad review this year. Her review said she has difficulty communicating and can be rather abrasive when she does. Go figure….I have seen it first hand now...i never noticed this about her until this year. Not sure she agrees or sees this about her self yet. She came off like the company is the one with the problem. I was surprised she shared this with me…


JAR


----------



## Affaircare

Hope you feel better soon, JAR. I understand it's not the same, and I do realize you feel lonely, but you have a lot of friends here on TAM and as long as we're here, you will never be alone.


----------



## jar

Thanks Affaircare

I got a ton of stuff from the courts the past few days.

Finale hearing is in the beginning of June…

Wednesday of this week my lawyer and I are to prepare a response to wifes divorce decree that I was given in December.

Mid April we have court ordered mediation with lawyers.

Maybe this is why wife hasn’t wanted to talk about splitting up possessions more. Things are moving forward now all their own. She is getting what she wants I guess.

JAR


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## paramore

I am so sorry to hear that Jar, like affaircare said, we are all here for you. Try and get well.


----------



## jar

Well today is lawyer day…Should be an interesting meeting. Working on a response to wife’s divorce decree the last few nights. I have a lot that I want changed.

Monday night her and I connected just a little bit we had a nice talk about work news and family. We even talked about volunteering locally at a place and maybe doing this together and see how it goes.

I get a text from wife today telling me she won’t be around this weekend. 

I tell her I won’t be around as well. She asked me to put the dog in the kennel and that she would split it with me.
I told her I could not do this because I do not have the money and because it makes me feel like a doormat, and like I am financing her affair.

I think I must have struck a nerve.

She writes back to me that our dog is mine to. She tells me that we are not together only married on paper at this point. She also tells me she will never ask me to watch the dog again. She also says that I do not need to go out of town this weekend and she doesn’t have to finance whatever I am up to either.

Tonight should be interesting to say the least…

Jar


----------



## Jellybeans

Don't respond to her comments.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> She tells me that we are not together only married on paper at this point.


What the ****, why'd she even bring that up after things seemed to be amicable at least? That was just being *****y. I don't know if you should respond as previously advised against but I would to the statement of your plans for the weekend, I'd say "Listen, *****, I'm a grown ass man that, as you said, isn't 'married' anymore. If I have something going on, that's my business. If I ain't got **** going on, that's my business. Bottom line, mind your own ****in' business."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Definitely struck a nerve. Good one.


----------



## land2634

The difference she isn't understanding is, at least I'm guessing here, that whatever you're going to do this weekend doesn't break your marriage vows. You did well to let her know that just because you're being amicable doesn't mean you've accepted her infidelity.

I see a lot of spouses that seem to think that once they declare a marriage is over, that it is so and that suddenly makes it ok to break their vows. Mine was the same way. Just think, if only the rest of life were that easy. "My bills are paid off, so I don't owe you anymore." Obviously, life doesn't work that way.

Just continue what you're doing. At the very least, it seems you're doing well on a personal level, so I don't see any reason to change things up one bit. You've seem to have accepted that things look grim on the marital recovery front, but you're making the best of what you do have. We're all proud of you and rooting for you!


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## iamnottheonlyone

It seems you are finding peace. Keep growing. Can you believe it has been a year? Most people would be done with it all by now. You have done the right thing all along. You have much to be proud of. (Eleven months for me and no filing yet.)


----------



## krismimo

Hey Jar hope your well,

So whats the 411? Hang in there! KRIS


----------



## jar

I am doing well…

Been busy with work projects and some projects around the house.

Wife and I had our taxes done together last week. We owe a ton of money. She was in tears it is so bad.

Wife and I are still cohabitating together. Some days she is more social than others. Seems like in the past week we spent a decent amount of time together. Taxes, a vet appointment, taxes again, spent the weekend in the same house together….Watched some TV together talked some and did some spring cleaning.

I have been working a lot again and have a full plate at the office.

I feel like I have a full plate at home as well. By the time I get home at night eat dinner and work out it is after 10.

I have been feeling a little overwhelmed with everything it doesn’t seem like there is enough time in the day to get everything I need done.

I have been having a hard time getting use to a single income. I am trying to get my finances on track and have begun working with a financial planner.

Mediation is the middle of next month. Wife hasn’t mentioned a word about it. As far as I know there has been no change in how she feels about the divorce or the affair. 

Tonight I plan working on some divorce paperwork etc. at the kitchen table…..I guess I am ready to talk more about splitting up our possessions….I am wondering if she will say anything.

Emotionally I have been pretty good.
JAR


----------



## Jellybeans

Glad to hear that emotionally you are feeling better. 

Sometimes it does seem there aren't enough hours in the day right?! It's crazy!


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## jar

Hey every one

Things are getting interesting on my end. I am trying to prepare for mediation. It is next Tuesday. The pressure is on.

Last week was a really busy week. I met with a financial advisor again. He had a few recommendations on the house that I hadn’t considered. My personal finances are also stressing me out as well.

With work commute excursive divorce and day to day stuff I feel like my plate is full.

My advisor sat me down and told me he has been through what I am going through. He told me take the high road get out of this as soon as possible and give my wife whatever she wants. It will be better for me emotionally and phycology in the long run….

As many of you know I have been really stalling about going through our list of possessions. Well last week I finally did this on my own.

On Thursday night my wife came home and she looked absolute gorgeous she had just got her hair done. She packed the dogs things and her suit case. It seems that she flew out to see the other guy for the weekend. She was a little withdrawn throughout the week. I think that this was a bit of a last minute trip. She even left during a snow storm.

It seems she got my point about the dog when she runs off to do these things.

Thursday night I was also in a bit of a mood. It had been a long week with trying to figure all this stuff out and when I saw her packing up the dog without a heads up it really upset me.

Later that night she was in her room and I went and talked to her. I was a little bit on the authoritarian sounding side. I asked hey we need to go through this stuff and I am ready. Mediation is in a week and we need to get this done. I also told her I would like to give her a heads up on what my lawyer and I will be bringing to the table and that we had some new ideas for the house. They are all grim by the way. I even asked her when she would be moving out. She looked at me and said what you mean. I replied you told me you would be out on March first and now it is April first. Her response to me is she isn’t doing anything until after mediation. She also told me we are not talking about these things now or this weekend and that she isn’t a doormat either….lol …I thought she would jump at the opportunity to get this stuff taken care of. I guess she doesn’t like be approached on these subjects. It has been two months since she asked me about this kind of stuff.

I think I am at a point to finally deal this this stuff in a healthy way. I guess I feel ready for it.

I came to an interesting revolution last night. It is about expectation. Those of you who have followed along remember I was having a hard time several months ago because I was constantly being let down. I still had these expectations of certain things and when they wouldn’t happen I would be let down, my feelings would be hurt, and I would be angry…

I thought I had let go of all of this preconceived notions, expectations, etc. I guess there is one biggie I still have been holding on to. Parts of me hopes, prays, and expect her to let go of the OM and return to our marriage because it is what I want and what I feel is the right thing to do. I get let down a little every time she runs off to be with the OM still. I get let down every time this divorce related stuff comes up to. 

I need to let go of this fantasy I have of this…Sooner I do this the better it will be for me…If I don’t expect this I have nothing to be angry or let down about….As soon as I let go of the simple expectation I use to have things got a lot better for me.

So that is where I am at today

JAR


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Hey every one
> 
> Things are getting interesting on my end. I am trying to prepare for mediation. It is next Tuesday. The pressure is on.
> 
> Last week was a really busy week. I met with a financial advisor again. He had a few recommendations on the house that I hadn’t considered. My personal finances are also stressing me out as well.
> 
> With work commute excursive divorce and day to day stuff I feel like my plate is full.
> 
> My advisor sat me down and told me he has been through what I am going through. He told me take the high road get out of this as soon as possible and give my wife whatever she wants. It will be better for me emotionally and phycology in the long run….
> 
> As many of you know I have been really stalling about going through our list of possessions. Well last week I finally did this on my own.
> 
> On Thursday night my wife came home and she looked absolute gorgeous she had just got her hair done. She packed the dogs things and her suit case. It seems that she flew out to see the other guy for the weekend. She was a little withdrawn throughout the week. I think that this was a bit of a last minute trip. She even left during a snow storm.
> 
> It seems she got my point about the dog when she runs off to do these things.
> 
> Thursday night I was also in a bit of a mood. It had been a long week with trying to figure all this stuff out and when I saw her packing up the dog without a heads up it really upset me.
> 
> Later that night she was in her room and I went and talked to her. I was a little bit on the authoritarian sounding side. I asked hey we need to go through this stuff and I am ready. Mediation is in a week and we need to get this done. I also told her I would like to give her a heads up on what my lawyer and I will be bringing to the table and that we had some new ideas for the house. They are all grim by the way. I even asked her when she would be moving out. She looked at me and said what you mean. I replied you told me you would be out on March first and now it is April first. Her response to me is she isn’t doing anything until after mediation. She also told me we are not talking about these things now or this weekend and that she isn’t a doormat either….lol …I thought she would jump at the opportunity to get this stuff taken care of. I guess she doesn’t like be approached on these subjects. It has been two months since she asked me about this kind of stuff.
> 
> I think I am at a point to finally deal this this stuff in a healthy way. I guess I feel ready for it.
> 
> I came to an interesting revolution last night. It is about expectation. Those of you who have followed along remember I was having a hard time several months ago because I was constantly being let down. I still had these expectations of certain things and when they wouldn’t happen I would be let down, my feelings would be hurt, and I would be angry…
> 
> I thought I had let go of all of this preconceived notions, expectations, etc. I guess there is one biggie I still have been holding on to. Parts of me hopes, prays, and expect her to let go of the OM and return to our marriage because it is what I want and what I feel is the right thing to do. I get let down a little every time she runs off to be with the OM still. I get let down every time this divorce related stuff comes up to.
> 
> I need to let go of this fantasy I have of this…Sooner I do this the better it will be for me…If I don’t expect this I have nothing to be angry or let down about….As soon as I let go of the simple expectation I use to have things got a lot better for me.
> 
> So that is where I am at today
> 
> JAR


Just keep moving, man, and nothing can stop you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArmyofJuan

jar said:


> I thought I had let go of all of this preconceived notions, expectations, etc. I guess there is one biggie I still have been holding on to. Parts of me hopes, prays, and expect her to let go of the OM and return to our marriage because it is what I want and what I feel is the right thing to do. I get let down a little every time she runs off to be with the OM still. I get let down every time this divorce related stuff comes up to.


Know this, there is no future for her and the OM. Once all this is over that relationship will fall apart. The number one killer of affairs is turning them into full blown relationships. 97% of affairs die within 2 years.

You are doing good, just look out for number one. She is the enemy now and don't forget that. It will all come tumbling down on her one day, it's just a matter of when, not if. 

Being nice gets you walked on. When dealing with her show no emotion and make sure you are putting your needs first. She won't like it but she'll respect you for standing up for yourself and accepting the situation. Run with the assumption that it is over forever because holding on to any hope will just set you back. You may find out that life is 100x better without her in it (as a friend of mind found out with his divorce). Sometimes what looks like the worse thing that happened to you turns out to be the best thing in the long run.

6 months to a year from now she may come back on her hands and knees begging for you to talk to her. That happens more times than people realize but that not going to happen right now or the near future.


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## turnera

When you are ready to start dating again, you'll kick yourself for waiting so long, for a woman who's selfish enough to stab you in the back.


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## i_feel_broken

just carry on and get on with your life.

Try to realise after all that has happened even if she did turn around and say what you want it would be a HUGE barrel of pain to sort things out, if even possible. Your wife is not who you want her to be or thought she was. It would be difficult for a long time to trust that she wasn't in touch with him etc. It would set you back along way, you are emerging out of the other side a better and eventually a happier person.

good luck


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## Lazarus

ArmyofJuan said:


> Know this, there is no future for her and the OM. Once all this is over that relationship will fall apart. The number one killer of affairs is turning them into full blown relationships. 97% of affairs die within 2 years.
> 
> You are doing good, just look out for number one. She is the enemy now and don't forget that. It will all come tumbling down on her one day, it's just a matter of when, not if.
> 
> Being nice gets you walked on. When dealing with her show no emotion and make sure you are putting your needs first. She won't like it but she'll respect you for standing up for yourself and accepting the situation. Run with the assumption that it is over forever because holding on to any hope will just set you back. You may find out that life is 100x better without her in it (as a friend of mind found out with his divorce). Sometimes what looks like the worse thing that happened to you turns out to be the best thing in the long run.
> 
> 6 months to a year from now she may come back on her hands and knees begging for you to talk to her. That happens more times than people realize but that not going to happen right now or the near future.


I agree with this. 2 years and bust. If longer she'd fall into the 25% mentioned but hey stats are just that. Force her into the OM arms full time. A new beginning for her might not be all shine and bright for the future.

She "looked gorgeous" was that for your or OM?

She won't do anything until after mediation. Hmm. 

You must not expect anything. Be businesslike in a soft tone nice guy way. Look after yourself. Be dashing, debonair but, this is all about you right now. Your advisor is right to keep you reminded to be on the rightside of you, your emotionally healthy side.

Be cheerful about your future, your new build plans, out boating etc and a few calls from friends when she's around. Get some women friends to call. If that's difficult, I am sure there would be plenty here! Just make her realise (without her knowing of course) that when you are leaving into the sunset that you're figured and its going to be good, real good. 

It's sad but, it isn't over till its over. And hey even when its over who knows what the future can bring. 

You need to keep a firm foot on the ground with no expectations. You're close to your year deadline. It can be shifted. Nothing is set in stone. Just remember that but, DON'T expect anything. 

She needs to be made jealous, aware of what's she's losing. Make yourself look gorgeous too.

Good luck.


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## jar

Thanks guys for the support. I think I am doing ok these days…I never let her see when things get to me.
I think I am looking pretty good these days I have lost 25lbs. I haven’t looked this good since my college days. 
JAR


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## turnera

Swimsuit weather coming up!


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Thanks guys for the support. I think I am doing ok these days…I never let her see when things get to me.
> I think I am looking pretty good these days I have lost 25lbs. I haven’t looked this good since my college days.
> JAR


And this time, he'll keep it off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jessi

Great to hear you are well Jar, 
It looks like things are coming to an end. Right now look after yourself and keep an open mind........I know you still have hope and that is a good thing........but I think in your case your wife is going to have to live through the lessons she is going to learn.......this is the best scenario for you anyway.........
Getting all the cobwebs out by living the messy wayward life is the only way for reality to come into play for her........
25 lbs is a lot, enjoy your new body and strut that stuff a little.....
I'm sure your wife will notice a simmer more confident Jar right there for someone to love and have a life with................if it doesn't end up her, some other lucky woman will be blessed to have you in her life.........
you have learned so much and become a better man........


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## rome2012

jar said:


> I thought I had let go of all of this preconceived notions, expectations, etc. I guess there is one biggie I still have been holding on to. Parts of me hopes, prays, and expect her to let go of the OM and return to our marriage because it is what I want and what I feel is the right thing to do. I get let down a little every time she runs off to be with the OM still. I get let down every time this divorce related stuff comes up to.
> 
> I need to let go of this fantasy I have of this…Sooner I do this the better it will be for me…If I don’t expect this I have nothing to be angry or let down about….As soon as I let go of the simple expectation I use to have things got a lot better for me.


Thanks Jar !!!!!

This is exactly where I have to be !!!!

Thanks for opening my eyes about this....makes a lot of sense.... !!!!!!!


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## Affaircare

JAR~

Want to do something fun? Read your very first post. Remember "where you were" when you wrote that first post? You were out of the house, freaked out, not thinking clearly, not being true to yourself, and you had no idea how to handle any of it. 

Compare that to where you are today. 

You have been true to your own wish to be back at home, and you are back in your own home with your dog. You have taken control of yourself, your past, and the things you did that contributed; calmed yourself down so that now you think clearly and decisively; you have learned enough about you that you know what you do and do not want and you can stand up for yourself in a clear, respectful way; you can ask for what you need and what you want; you know yourself enough to BE true to yourself; and you have tools to use to handle your feelings, a plan for the way you want to handle yourself and your life today, a plan for how to deal with and handle the impending divorce, a plan for your future including one day sharing your life with someone, and a plan to continue to "take the high road" and be the man you have the potential to be! 

I would say you've come a LONG, *LONG *WAY!! At this point, your wife is still expecting others to "make her feel" happy and projecting her personal responsibility onto others...so chances are that this affair-relationship will never last as the foundation is build on lies and dysfunction. Still she is determined and the divorce is pending. I don't know if it could be stopped at this late date, and if it were...OH what a mountain you two would have to overcome!! 

Thus, I believe it is wise to move forward with some acceptance. If she wants china or silver or whatever, I say it's only "things"...who really cares? As long as the assets are split 50/50 and the debts are split JUST as equally--as long as the proposal is anywhere near reasonable--I say agree and move on into your future. 

It has been my pleasure to know you and watch you grow here on this site, JAR. 


Faithfully, 


~Cindy (aka Affaircare)


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## jar

Thanks for the support….It has been an interesting journey this past year. I was a mess this time last year.

Turnera……we just got more snow yesterday….hopefully spring shows up soon…I am ready for it.

Afaircare….You and Pete have been my guiding light in this crazy storm....There are many days I think back to what you have posted and the conversation we have had. I don’t have all the answers yet but I am getting there and figuring it out. My therapist says I am doing pretty well. She says I have compartmentalized this aspect of my life. She says that this isn’t a good thing or bad thing just a copying mechanism.

Rome2012….Easiest way I can explain things is for a long time when I came home at night I would be hoping dinner would be on the table when I arrived like old times. That is one time of day I really enjoyed during our marriage eating together at the dinner table and talking about our day….When that wasn’t happening any longer I was disappointed and it made me angry to some extent. It wasn’t until I realized the reason I am mad is this is something that I want and I in a way expect it. I realize I am the one responsible for letting myself down. I am the one that wants this and keeps expecting dinner on the table. I am the one that builds up this expectation every night and I am the one causing the disappointment. As soon as I told myself not to expect dinner on the table and that I would have to make my own dinner things got a lot better. There was no reason to be disappointed. Basicly I was pissed off and disappointed because I wasn’t getting my way. I still eat dinner every night at the kitchen table by myself and although I would love my wife to join me. It is a time of day I still enjoy. Gives me a chance to decompress from the day and regroup.

I have been exploring how I feel about religion and my spiritualty these past couple of months. The next few nights the church has been having a series of lectures. Last night was love and spirituality. Tonight is forgiveness….It was very interesting and realy hit home with some of the things I have experienced this year. It really has been helping a lot. This is an aspect of my life I have never put much thought into or explored up until now.

So last night when I arrived home it was about 9pm…Wife was in her room the dog was backing home. I hadn’t seen either of them since last Thursday night. I made my dinner and wife came down to do some dishes. She looked pissed off and didn’t have much to say to me.

This morning was kind of more of the same. She came tromping up the stairs and slammed the bathroom door while I was sleeping. My room is right next to the bathroom. She was in the kitchen getting her lunch together when I came down to do the same she looked the same very moody. I told her have a good day when she left for work. No response and a slammed door as she left.

I am not so sure what is going on with her but she seems withdrawn again…..Maybe it was my comments from last week.

This morning I called her on the way to work and let her know my schedule for the week. I am traveling for work. I also told her that I realized I had talked to her in a confrontational way to…I also let her know that I would like to talk about these things….that I am ready for this…And that I would like to give her a heads up as to what we are bringing to the table next week so she had some time to process….I also told her that I hated seeing her like this and if she would like to get some things off her chest I was available to talk as long as it was in a respectful way…..I told her all this in a voice mail because she ignored my call.

JAR


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Thanks for the support….It has been an interesting journey this past year. I was a mess this time last year.
> 
> Turnera……we just got more snow yesterday….hopefully spring shows up soon…I am ready for it.
> 
> Afaircare….You and Pete have been my guiding light in this crazy storm....There are many days I think back to what you have posted and the conversation we have had. I don’t have all the answers yet but I am getting there and figuring it out. My therapist says I am doing pretty well. She says I have compartmentalized this aspect of my life. She says that this isn’t a good thing or bad thing just a copying mechanism.
> 
> Rome2012….Easiest way I can explain things is for a long time when I came home at night I would be hoping dinner would be on the table when I arrived like old times. That is one time of day I really enjoyed during our marriage eating together at the dinner table and talking about our day….When that wasn’t happening any longer I was disappointed and it made me angry to some extent. It wasn’t until I realized the reason I am mad is this is something that I want and I in a way expect it. I realize I am the one responsible for letting myself down. I am the one that wants this and keeps expecting dinner on the table. I am the one that builds up this expectation every night and I am the one causing the disappointment. As soon as I told myself not to expect dinner on the table and that I would have to make my own dinner things got a lot better. There was no reason to be disappointed. Basicly I was pissed off and disappointed because I wasn’t getting my way. I still eat dinner every night at the kitchen table by myself and although I would love my wife to join me. It is a time of day I still enjoy. Gives me a chance to decompress from the day and regroup.
> 
> I have been exploring how I feel about religion and my spiritualty these past couple of months. The next few nights the church has been having a series of lectures. Last night was love and spirituality. Tonight is forgiveness….It was very interesting and realy hit home with some of the things I have experienced this year. It really has been helping a lot. This is an aspect of my life I have never put much thought into or explored up until now.
> 
> So last night when I arrived home it was about 9pm…Wife was in her room the dog was backing home. I hadn’t seen either of them since last Thursday night. I made my dinner and wife came down to do some dishes. She looked pissed off and didn’t have much to say to me.
> 
> This morning was kind of more of the same. She came tromping up the stairs and slammed the bathroom door while I was sleeping. My room is right next to the bathroom. She was in the kitchen getting her lunch together when I came down to do the same she looked the same very moody. I told her have a good day when she left for work. No response and a slammed door as she left.
> 
> I am not so sure what is going on with her but she seems withdrawn again…..Maybe it was my comments from last week.
> 
> This morning I called her on the way to work and let her know my schedule for the week. I am traveling for work. I also told her that I realized I had talked to her in a confrontational way to…I also let her know that I would like to talk about these things….that I am ready for this…And that I would like to give her a heads up as to what we are bringing to the table next week so she had some time to process….I also told her that I hated seeing her like this and if she would like to get some things off her chest I was available to talk as long as it was in a respectful way…..I told her all this in a voice mail because she ignored my call.
> 
> JAR


Maybe you're both realizing that it's over, the thing is that you're coming up from the despair you were in and she's coming down from the "fog."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Hi Jar,

Just wanted to say I have been keeping up on your post. I am happy for you that you are really coping well and taking a stance with the wife. I am glad to see you did not aid her in the affair with the dog situation..

I hope that you find all the happiness in life that you deserve. We will never hear both sides of your story andknow where things took a turn. I think you have grown over this whole ordeal. What I admire most about you is the fact that you started working to better yourself for her and tried every way possible to save your marraige. You put up with the hot and cold feelings,the yelling and demands and temper tantrums and through it all,you kept your dignity. You also made yourself a better man and you realized you needed to do it for you.I hope you find a partner that can appreciate the hard work you put on yourself and you will not have leftover baggage when this is done because of the way you handled it. There is someone waiting for a man like you.

As for your wife, I am disappointed that she couldn't get past her issues and see the mistakes she has made too. I think she will come out of this fog one day soon and think what have I done?? I think she would insist on this divorce even if this very moment she got struck by lightening and realized what she was doing. It is kinda sad. That for awhile,I thought you were breaking through that ice. Just know you went above and beyond trying to save your marraige and even though she can't see it now,she will be the one dealing with all the baggage later and someone else will have scooped you up by then.

I wish you well my friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lazarus

Jar,

Read this Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Calling It Quits: Are You Ready for Divorce?

Once you've read and answered it maybe your wife should look at it too


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## notreadytoquit

Lazarus that's all great what the article says but what do you do when you don't see the divorce coming at all? You see many stories on this forum where we can probably award few Oscars for those spouses who managed to keep their unhappiness/unsatisfaction inside them so well and chose the affair path instead


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## jar

Weird weekend on my end…

Not talk about mediation on Tuesday.

We have a house viewing tomorrow afternoon….

Friday night we both spent some time cleaning up the yard.

I offered to go and take my wife to the tire place to get her summer tires put on her car.

We got up early on Saturday morning to do this we also ran some errands together.

Today we got up and went to church together, cleaned the house; she got me some stuff to organize my closet better and helped me. 

I got my old jeep out of the garage dusted it off and she wanted to go for a ride. So we bundled up and took a ride around town…No top….50 degrees out.

It was an enjoyable weekend. Hard to believe we are about divorced at this point….

JAR


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## notreadytoquit

she almost acts like a bi polar. Good luck to you jar you deserve way better(and you will find that too)


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## turnera

No, she can afford to be SAFE now, now that you are giving her what she wants.


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## Lazarus

Keep YOUR new life on track and keep it real interesting. Think big, think new build, new plot, new trips on the boat, some travel thrown in if you can afford it and if not, still lots to do with no money, track a lynx, save whatever floats your boat. 

Still move on with YOUR plan. If she wants, maybe she may be fortunate that YOU will allow her to come on the ride. She's got to see that she's going to be left behind.

No expectations. Just keep on doing for YOU. Your future looks bright. You've done so much to benefit you and any woman that comes along in the future. Your wife just has to realise that you are a catch to any woman and she's been slow, real slow to waken up. 

Remember Jar, DO NOT set yourself up for a fall because if you do, it will be even harder if she does the dirty on you twice. 

Keep on track. You're doing well. An inspiration in the face of terrible adversity.

Good Luck. Keep with the updates.


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## jar

Lazarus

Thanks…By the way I read the link you posted and I feel like I am ready to move on for the most part. I can answer every one of the questions positively….I do still have a little love left for my wife that is under lock and key.

The homely in church this week was the story of Lazarus….

JAR


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## Lazarus

notreadytoquit said:


> Lazarus that's all great what the article says but what do you do when you don't see the divorce coming at all? You see many stories on this forum where we can probably award few Oscars for those spouses who managed to keep their unhappiness/unsatisfaction inside them so well and chose the affair path instead


Cry behind closed doors. Keep your head up high despite your pain. Be strong. It can be a terribly lonely journey. 

If he's walked out the door for OW. He's a rat. 

If you are the last to know, consider this: sometime down the line he will realise exactly what he's lost but, it may well be too late when this realisation comes because you will have had to deal with the terrible pain of infidelity all on your own. How can you easily forgive someone that selfish?

He probably doesn't even know what you are going through because he's too busy courting the interests of another woman, spending money on her and doing everything he didn't do with you that you wanted him to do. 

Ultimately you may be dealing with someone lacking human decency, showing no empathy, no concern of the pain they have inflicted upon another human being, someone they claimed to love but in essence, only superficially loved. Such people are of poor character and with no morals. 

Consider yourself worth better. Much better. Value you and look after yourself for there will be someone somewhere with the right qualities, someone who will love you, cherish you and value fidelity. Someone who cares to spend quality time with you and not leave you to do all the things only they want to do. 

A healthy partnership is one that is balanced, where two people worry and care about what happens to each other. One that is equitable, not inequitable.

If your husband comes back you will have had to deal with all the terrible pain on your own, with perhaps no support other than TAM and you may not be able to forgive him because you had to endure everything on your own.

Jar is a special person. His wife would be foolish to let someone with his qualities to go off into the sunset. He woke up maybe too late (?) but then again maybe not. Only time will tell.

I sense he may well have to move his deadline date.


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## Lazarus

jar said:


> Lazarus
> 
> The homely in church this week was the story of Lazarus….
> 
> JAR


Lazarus was finally rewarded in the end. 

I hope you are rewarded too.


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## jar

Well guys it took 3 hours to reach a settlement today in mediation but we did it…

I dressed well and looked good and showed no emotion….

I feel good about what was accomplished I ended up with the things I wanted….

The three items that got debated pretty heavily were the dog, the investment account and the china and the ring….

My wife ended up with the china and the ring….I am ok about this. 

I need up with the dog and living in the house till it is sold. 

Wife ended up wanting 100% of the investment account… This one is complicated. We split it 60/40 I got 40 percent. I wanted 50/50 we kept going back and forth using the dog and ring as a bargaining chip…Kind of stupid she finally agreed to 60/40. Original divorce decree it was written as 50/50…This one kind of floored me she felt that she has been waiting around for me etc. and felt she was entitled to it.

I live in the house until it is sold. She also does not want to sell until we can get out of the house for what the mortgage is. Until then she will be paying half the mortgage. I throughout some other options on the table that financially could be a little better for her but she was not interested in them.

I am very surprised how things ended up. I think my deal is good…I think the deal she choose for herself could have been better. I can’t believe her lawyer agreed to this.

Wife was emotional and in tears…Her defenses we up pretty good. She had to excuse herself a few times.

I played it very cool and calm…Several times I asked if she was ok with this and if she needed more time to think about it. A few times I even threw in are you enthusiastic and mutely agree especially when it came down to the dog. I tried my best to be a gentleman but stay firm as to what was important to me. A few times she said she felt like she was getting screwed.

I tried to give her an easy out with the house and she wouldn’t agree to it.

She was in tears as we left. I asked if she was ok and if she wanted to talk. She snapped back at me that she didn’t want to talk to me ever….

So the lawyers are drafting the final decree this week….The judge will sign off on things and more than likely divorce will be finale in a two weeks.

What a day….I am feeling ok about things…I was ready for it…Wife has 60 days to move out.

JAR


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## turnera

Wow. What the hell was she expecting? So weird.


----------



## Affaircare

Don't be silly--she was expecting to have her cake and eat it too. She expected to have an affair and do so unscathed. She expected JAR to bear the cost of her choices (as is 100% consistent with how she has acted to this point). 

JAR, I'm sad to hear that it's over--or about to be--but I'm glad to hear that you stood up for yourself, made a reasonable agreement you can live with, and that this chapter in your life is ending and a new chapter will be beginning. I'm also glad to hear that someone other than you will now be holding her to some costs for these decisions.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Well guys it took 3 hours to reach a settlement today in mediation but we did it…
> 
> I dressed well and looked good and showed no emotion….
> 
> I feel good about what was accomplished I ended up with the things I wanted….
> 
> The three items that got debated pretty heavily were the dog, the investment account and the china and the ring….
> 
> My wife ended up with the china and the ring….I am ok about this.
> 
> I need up with the dog and living in the house till it is sold.
> 
> Wife ended up wanting 100% of the investment account… This one is complicated. We split it 60/40 I got 40 percent. I wanted 50/50 we kept going back and forth using the dog and ring as a bargaining chip…Kind of stupid she finally agreed to 60/40. Original divorce decree it was written as 50/50…This one kind of floored me she felt that she has been waiting around for me etc. and felt she was entitled to it.
> 
> I live in the house until it is sold. She also does not want to sell until we can get out of the house for what the mortgage is. Until then she will be paying half the mortgage. I throughout some other options on the table that financially could be a little better for her but she was not interested in them.
> 
> I am very surprised how things ended up. I think my deal is good…I think the deal she choose for herself could have been better. I can’t believe her lawyer agreed to this.
> 
> Wife was emotional and in tears…Her defenses we up pretty good. She had to excuse herself a few times.
> 
> I played it very cool and calm…Several times I asked if she was ok with this and if she needed more time to think about it. A few times I even threw in are you enthusiastic and mutely agree especially when it came down to the dog. I tried my best to be a gentleman but stay firm as to what was important to me. A few times she said she felt like she was getting screwed.
> 
> I tried to give her an easy out with the house and she wouldn’t agree to it.
> 
> She was in tears as we left. I asked if she was ok and if she wanted to talk. She snapped back at me that she didn’t want to talk to me ever….
> 
> So the lawyers are drafting the final decree this week….The judge will sign off on things and more than likely divorce will be finale in a two weeks.
> 
> What a day….I am feeling ok about things…I was ready for it…Wife has 60 days to move out.
> 
> JAR


Sucks, man. At least you saw it through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Good for you! She expected that you would be the one crying and having a hard time with it.let her have the china. It will remind her that you took her piece of cake. Let her keep the ring,it will remind her of what she lost. 

I am sure that the loss of the dog hurt her as it was her baby,but that was a consequence! I am happy for you that you get to stay in your home.I imagine that was a tense topic! Glad she still has to pay half the mortgage. The money should have been 50/50! She may have "waited" for you, but you had to endure watching her have an affair! But really, in the long run, your happiness is soo much more worth it!

Awesome job!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

It would really be interesting to see how her life is in 18 months or so from now. Not that I am hoping you keep in touch in any way but in so many of these instances, the wayward ends up just as miserable with the OM than before the affair started.

FWIW Jar, you were quite the rock through the last half of this ordeal. I would not have had the patience and demeanor to be 1/4 as laid back around her as you were.

I'm so glad it is almost over for you my friend. Better days lie ahead!

Q~


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## ahhhmaaaan!

Wow jar, you are a strong man, for sure. I still have to go through this bull**** myself. I'm really dreading seeing her across the table during a mediation session as just some random person. I guess I better "buck-up," huh?


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## OhGeesh

I'm not one to jump on the mental illness band wagon, but your wife (soon to be ex) shows many Red flags. 

Best of luck to you JAR in moving on and finding the woman of your dreams.......keep us updated. 

Best of luck to you!!


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## adv

After reading your story/ordeal from the beginning, I first thought you just a glutton for punishment. Now I see a strong man who is ready to move forward on his own terms. Good job taking care of yourself and good luck in your future.


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## jar

Thanks guys

When I got home last night she was gone…Nothing seems to be missing…..I imagine she went home to her family’s place or something.
Surprisingly I feel fine about things. Still surprised at how the day went yesterday….I still think my wife made some not so great decision’s for her self-regarding how she is handling money mortgage and the house going forward. 

I got a good night sleep and feel pretty good today. Maybe the wave of emotions just hasn’t hit yet…Maybe they won’t seeing how I felt ready for this. I guess I feel like I have no unfinished business on all levels with my wife.

JAR


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## jessi

jar, 

Sounds like you are well on your way, I know it's not what you wanted but look how you have grown as a man.....
Someday we will regret her decisions and it will be to late.....
I wish you the best in your new life and your new future......
Keep your mind and heart open...........Learn to say yes.......
jessi


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## Initfortheduration

Your wife is going to make half the payment till the loan isn't underwater? Wow, well no rush moving out. Once she moves out, I would probably pick up a room mate or two. Maybe mortgage free that way. Oh well, best of luck.

P. S.

I think your wife is going regret this for the rest of her life.


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## land2634

jar said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> When I got home last night she was gone…Nothing seems to be missing…..I imagine she went home to her family’s place or something.
> Surprisingly I feel fine about things. Still surprised at how the day went yesterday….I still think my wife made some not so great decision’s for her self-regarding how she is handling money mortgage and the house going forward.
> 
> I got a good night sleep and feel pretty good today. Maybe the wave of emotions just hasn’t hit yet…Maybe they won’t seeing how I felt ready for this. I guess I feel like I have no unfinished business on all levels with my wife.
> 
> JAR


Jar,

I just wanted to point out that you made your decisions outside of emotion, while all hers, which you point out as poor decisions for herself financially, were made in the heat of emotion. Kudos to you on that one.

You've definitely come a long way. We both came to this site at about the same time, so I feel very comfortable in saying that, although I've never met you in person, it has been a pleasure to watch you grow into a better person. Whether you realize it or not, the fact that we went through the pain of betrayal together definitely helped me through so many personal obstacles. Does it suck that this is what it took for our paths to cross? Absolutely, but at the same time, we have to make the best out of what we're given, and you've certainly learned to do that.

You seem prepared for the next phase of your life. My divorce has been final since February, and I will tell you that I, for the most part, feel liberated in a sense. I never would have chosen this path, but I am glad to not be stuck in limbo anymore either. There will be days you'll feel sad. I had one a couple of days ago. Those moments pass.

I do want to share something with you. As you may remember, writing is somewhat therapeutic for me when I'm feeling down. I've learned to turn those moments into personal lessons through my writing. This is something I wrote and feel you may be able to relate to, since we have been brought together through the same circumstances:

Closure | Inceptive Reality

Give it a read. Hopefully you can relate. Never give up on yourself, you've come a long way. Most of all, always remember that our failure is not fatal. Rise up when you fall and always be the bigger person.

I think I speak for many people here when I say we're proud of you.


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## justbe

JAR ... after reading your long thread, i am glad that finally you are ready to divorce .. but it will be better in the future you ignore her completely .. no more contact in the future with her physically or non-physically . just consider that she does not exist.


good luck JAR.


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## Wolf359

MrQuatto said:


> It would really be interesting to see how her life is in 18 months or so from now. Not that I am hoping you keep in touch in any way but in so many of these instances, the wayward ends up just as miserable with the OM than before the affair started.
> 
> FWIW Jar, you were quite the rock through the last half of this ordeal. I would not have had the patience and demeanor to be 1/4 as laid back around her as you were.
> 
> I'm so glad it is almost over for you my friend. Better days lie ahead!
> 
> Q~




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


That is so true, I'm happy to see you finely have some peace from this s**t. You know whats happening right now. She looks at what she has left, and it stinks. She now knows what she lost, and what she has not gained from all this. I think she may ask for you back, or just to stay at the house with you. Are you going to let her do that ? I will say, she will not pay you for very long on the house. It's just the way she is. Do not let her get away with it. If she stops paying for the house take her to court for it. You know it may take years to pay for the house till it sells. I see a very sad women, now is when she will pay for her misdeeds in this affair. I hope her new man hates that she will be paying a lot of money out of her check every month. Just to warn you, Can she file bankruptcy then not pay you for the house ? Just thinking Maybe take the money she gives you cash the check separately. Then use the money for dating the new person in your life. I think it may be fun to look at it this way. She pays you to have fun with somebody, just like you payed for her to.


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## jar

Hi Guys
Thank you for all the kind words…

Land….I read your blog like you I have learned each of the lessons you wrote about and feel much like you do.

Wife is home again to night with a bunch of boxes she has alredy began packing. She is acting like everything is just fine. She is also doing the fake laugh when something Is barley funny. 

She told me about the dog’s pill schedule and burst into tears. I told her the dog custody didn’t have to go like this. She said it was best…

She then gave me a book about dogs….First gesture of a gift or a nice thing in a very long time from her.

She has been all talkative as she goes through things saying things like hey remember this remember that…

Crazy just crazy
jar


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## tamara24

She is overwhelmed emotionaly. Beware of Dr. Jeckel,Mr. Hyde to come about. One minute,your friend the next minute,your enemy.

She will also have to take the consequences for her actions,the loss of the dog, the mortgage payment and such. Don't try to make her feel better. She most likely is upset already that you are in a totally different emotional state than what she thought you were. You were strong yesterday, she fell apart. She is realizing everything is coming to an end.regret may be starting but she would never admit this to you at this stage.

Tamara
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ahhhmaaaan!

I agree with her^. She seems emotionally distressed. How sick is she though- "She has been all talkative as she goes through things saying things like hey remember this remember that…" that's some sick ****. I'd tell her "get your **** and get out ALREADY!" She's just throwing it in your face, dude... like if nothing happened... you were a just stepping stone toward her ultimate happiness, at least that's how I'm seeing it, anyway. Anyone...


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Hi Guys
> Thank you for all the kind words…
> 
> Land….I read your blog like you I have learned each of the lessons you wrote about and feel much like you do.
> 
> Wife is home again to night with a bunch of boxes she has alredy began packing. She is acting like everything is just fine. She is also doing the fake laugh when something Is barley funny.
> 
> She told me about the dog’s pill schedule and burst into tears. I told her the dog custody didn’t have to go like this. She said it was best…
> 
> She then gave me a book about dogs….First gesture of a gift or a nice thing in a very long time from her.
> 
> She has been all talkative as she goes through things saying things like hey remember this remember that…
> 
> Crazy just crazy
> jar


I see two possibilities:

1. She's putting up a front. When you guys were deciding everything, she was all crying and bawling, now, she's happy and stuff. She probably sees you being strong and is trying to keep up not wanting you to "win."

2. She's hoping to hurt you passive aggressively especially with bringing up the past like this didn't just happen.

Either way, it's over now so try to remain friends, if not, keep on moving. If I were you, I'd give her the damn dog, that would be the ultimate passive aggressive "f" you. Think about it, other than the house, that just may be the last emotional tie the two of you have. That may be why she didn't take your offer on the house like you thought, subconsciously keeping hope alive. Hell, if she's going to continue to live there until her time is up, I'd make sure that I was never home if you know what I mean, Hell, even if she didn't stay there, I'd be living it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lazarus

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I see two possibilities:
> 
> 1. She's putting up a front. When you guys were deciding everything, she was all crying and bawling, now, she's happy and stuff. She probably sees you being strong and is trying to keep up not wanting you to "win."
> 
> Think about it, other than the house, that just may be the last emotional tie the two of you have. That may be why she didn't take your offer on the house like you thought, subconsciously keeping hope alive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Misguided is right. I think she may be putting up a front. She went into something and pride and stubborness isn't allowing her to back out.

Her mental wellbeing seems awry. Wonder if she's suffering from a sort of depression, particularly with the Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde behaviour?

She started something and can't, or won't back down. The OM won't work out. He's got her 100% for now and whilst she wasn't 100% in her relationship with JAR, JAR wasn't 100% with her until he woke up. I still think this could be a relationship in the future where something may end up happening, even years down the line. 

Mrs Jar may feel responsible for putting Mr Jar into this position, hence her desire to be seen as fair in paying half mortgage payment till property sells, (open ended) but also perhaps a need there to keep tabs as to when JAR moves out and moves on without her? Not sure about that, but it is odd considering one of her laments was just having to constantly handle all their financial affairs. Somethings not right here. Is she keeping control so she could stitch up JAR on his credit record by stopping the payment without his knowledge if she doesn't get her own way in the sale price and timing? It's a difficult one but one thing's for sure, JAR should consider informing the mortgage company to alert him immediately if the half payment isn't made to protect his credit record. 

Liked the comment about using the pay check to fund JAR's kitty pot for entertaining other women. 

The OM won't be too happy and she will now be under pressure in the new relationship since the financial commitment makes less money available for her new life. 

Hope Jar keeps us all updated, although will understand if he's too busy to keep us all informed coz he'll be likely entertaining all those other woman in his town who'll be on the lookout for a good catch.

Mrs JAR's a fool, or she's suffering from depression. She'll waken up too late but the deal makes one think there could be an element of the early signs of guilt.

Should have been 50/50 and not 60/40 that may of course be the reason for the open ended house deal agreed.


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## jar

Lazururs

Thank you for the incite.

Wife has been packing more today. She told me she wants to be out at the end of the month. 

She is renting a place closer to her work a few towns away I guess.

She had a hard time telling me and looking in my eye when I asked. I am not sure if she is lying or not.

I am worried about her. This will be wrapped up in two weeks or so and this will all hit her at once. I know I shouldn’t worry. It would be easier if I didn’t care for her.

Things hit me a little more tonight. I am a little depressed tonight. It will pass.

JAR


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## justbe

jar said:


> Lazururs
> 
> Thank you for the incite.
> 
> Wife has been packing more today. She told me she wants to be out at the end of the month.
> 
> She is renting a place closer to her work a few towns away I guess.
> 
> She had a hard time telling me and looking in my eye when I asked. I am not sure if she is lying or not.
> 
> I am worried about her. This will be wrapped up in two weeks or so and this will all hit her at once. I* know I shouldn’t worry. It would be easier if I didn’t care for her.*
> 
> Things hit me a little more tonight. I am a little depressed tonight. It will pass.
> 
> JAR


i like the bold quoted words. You are becoming the person that you should be, Good Luck JAR.
it would be very nice if you ignore her in the future.


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## jessi

Jar, 
Stay strong, don't be depressed you have a life to live........time to let the new lessons in life guide you, keep and open mind a warm heart..................life will show the new road for Jar.............


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## jar

Hey Guys

Things on my end are going ok…Spent the weekend with friends and family.

Wife did the same.

The final draft of the divorce decree is about finished.

Wife has about half of her things packed up at this point. Boxes everywhere in the house.

Every time she try’s and talks to me about our dog she burst into tears. Last night I got home after 9 and she asked if this would be my normal schedule and started crying because she was worried the dog would be cooped up all day. I told her that this wouldn’t be normal and if I was going to be late like this that I would make arrangements for her otherwise.

I was unpacking groceries after this conversation and wife ask if I am mad at her. I told her not at all. 

I did through this out into the conversation. I told her I wasn’t trying to stall anything but I wouldn’t not be opposed to waiting a month or two before we sign the final divorce paper work. I asked her to consider this so that she may get a chance to get moved in and settled. She just quickly said she was fine and walked off. She clearly isn’t.

Part of the divorce stuff was I was to give her some basic tools out of my tool box. I just went to the store and bought her everything I could think that she might need while living in an apartment. She is already using them as she packs up things.

Emotionally I am hanging in there. I think I have things pretty compartmentalized at this point watching my wife pack up isn’t bothering me too much. It does make the house a little depressing. But not too bad. I am looking forward towards the future and it doesn’t look to bad.

JAR


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## morituri

It sounds like you are in a good place, emotionally speaking that is - though obviously the same can't be said about your STBXW.

Since you have no kids with her, there should be no problem in establishing no contact with her after the divorce. But don't be surprised if she continues to try keeping you as part of her life - in a geosynchronous orbit. I highly advice against maintaining further contact because it slows down your personal recovery and really achieves nothing of true consequence and value for you. But that decision is yours alone to make.

I wish you all the best.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

morituri said:


> It sounds like you are in a good place, emotionally speaking that is - though obviously the same can't be said about your STBXW.
> 
> Since you have no kids with her, there should be no problem in establishing no contact with her after the divorce. But don't be surprised if she continues to try keeping you as part of her life - in a geosynchronous orbit. I highly advice against maintaining further contact because it slows down your personal recovery and really achieves nothing of true consequence and value for you. But that decision is yours alone to make.
> 
> I wish you all the best.


If he wants to cut all ties with her he's going to have to give the dog back, he even said it himself that he'd call her to make arrangements for it. The dog is a pretext, her "in" to contact him.

I'm interested to know why she's suddenly concerned if you're mad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

I am sure both of you will have feelings that arise over the next couple of weeks. Both of you need time to grieve. 

She is most likely thinking how can he be so calm? But you did all the hard work already while she has stayed in denial. Reality is striking her at every turn. Don't let her emotions dictate what you will give to her. I realize the dog is the baby for both of you,and that is extremely hard. But you got her and now one of the consequences of her not working with you on the marraige is that she had to give her up. Just as you gave up things.

Your going to be ok, Jar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Last night I got home and my wife had stayed home from work and finished packing her things…There’s just a pile of boxes left everything is packed even her clothes….

There was a note telling me how to pay the bills and saying that she closed out our safety deposit box…and that she was going to buy a new car this weekend.

She went to her families for the weekend.

I broke down really bad it all hit me. I ended up going to my family’s last night to hang out for the weekend. I needed to get out of there.

JAR


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> Last night I got home and my wife had stayed home from work and finished packing her things…There’s just a pile of boxes left everything is packed even her clothes….
> 
> There was a note telling me how to pay the bills and saying that she closed out our safety deposit box…and that she was going to buy a new car this weekend.
> 
> She went to her families for the weekend.
> 
> I broke down really bad it all hit me. I ended up going to my family’s last night to hang out for the weekend. I needed to get out of there.
> 
> JAR


Stand strong, now you can begin to move on. Imagine what she must be going through if you broke down that bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

So sorry. You really did fight the good fight.


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## tamara24

I am so sorry,Jar. I imagine that your wife is going through the same sort of emotions right now. That is most likely why she took the day off to pack so she could show emotions when you were not there to witness.

Hang in there. You are half way over the rainbow and it only gets better from here!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare




----------



## iamnottheonlyone

Every step of the way for the past year you have proven yourself to be a good man. She doesn't deserve you and probably never did. Stay the course. "The world is your oyster."


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## krismimo

I hope you enjoy the Easter holiday with your family, and I know everything will work out for you. Your probably numb right now and everything is/was hitting you all at once that your relationship is over, that is sad thing no matter what happened to end it. When I ended my last relationship moving out was the hardest thing to do there were good memories along with bad ones. When I finally broke things off I was incredibly sad, I was sad for the relationship, sad how we broke up, sad that it was over because I thought even then that he would change. He didn't so I left. There was a huge burdern that was lifted even though the pain was still there. It gets a little easier over time do what your doing now, and in time and only you will know when your past it. So cheers to you Jar, for getting past it.:smthumbup:


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## jar

Thank you for the kind words…I was able to shut it down pretty good for the weekend. I spent the weekend with my family. I was able to spend a lot of quality time with my brother and dad…It really helped a lot.

I am looking forward to getting all this behind me. It is sad but at the same time I have a lot of relief.

Wife will be officially moved out by the end of the weekend. Her family is coming to town to help her.

I don’t plan to be around.

She has signed the divorce decree stuff at this point. There are two small items I am not in agreement fully on. These got by me at mediation. I am trying to get them resolved but my lawyer isn’t being much of a help. I am just going to talk to my wife about these tonight and hopefully get them agreed on. 

It will be a big change after she leaves this weekend. The house will be really empty…

JAR


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## turnera

Invite some people over.


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## jessi

Jar, 
Once she is gone your life will slowly get back to Jar's life, you tried your best, you have learned and have become a better man......
Time will tell for your wife if her choices have been good ones......
I agree invite some friends over start a new normal for you.......
Try not to have to much contact with your wife for a while, give yourself time to heal.........
Keep an open mind and heart to life's next steps for you........
Keep the faith.....
jessi


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## krismimo

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Lazarus

The house maybe very empty but you have lots of supportive online friends at TAM.

Although maybe not a midlife crisis, you might want to read this
Mid Life Crisis, Depression, & the Walk Away Spouse which you may see irony in the name.

Like Misguided, why did she ask "are you mad at me." Seemed an odd thing to say.


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## krismimo

I remember you saying that she was moving out sometime by the end of the week. I'm sure everything is going as well as any situation like this is. Just know you have a lot of support, and I still hope you had a good weekend with your friends and family.

-Kris


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## turnera

How are you doing?


----------



## jar

Well I seem to be doing ok….I left home Friday morning with the dog….Wife was balling her eyes out over the dog….

I said see you around and I hope that the move goes well on Saturday. No hug and I showed no emotion. I also let her know that I would be signing the final divorce decree paper work on Thursday at 4:30.

We did a little rework on the agreement in regards some escrow account money. My lawyer has been really unavailable and slow to respond to anything since mediation.

Lawyer told me that if I didn’t sign in the next few days that my wife’s attorney said the deal was off….lol…He told me I better let my wife know my plan with signing. Of course she didn’t mention anything like this to me….She didn’t even tell me that her and her attorney had an agreed to the changes I heard it from the lawyer. 

Thursday night was our last night in the house together. I did my thing she did hers…Small thing I noticed is she kept trying to make small talk with me. She even slept with her bedroom door open. Which she never does.

I am going to head home soon. I imagine tonight will be kind of sucky. The house is going to be extremely empty…Most of the furniture etc. will be gone. Wife even took the bed that the dog sleeps on. I think I am ready for it but who knows how I will feel when I get home.

I been pretty level this weekend and trying to look toward the future.
JAR


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Welcome to your future. It is going to be amazing! Very soon I believe you will feel such a sense of relief. Many good things are ahead for you. Believe that!!:smthumbup:


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## turnera

Do you have some friends who can come over, maybe stay the first night?


----------



## jar

Well not to night unfortunately…

I got home the place was pretty empty…Some unusual items were left behind though…

For instance a table that was wife’s grandmothers is still here.

Other strange items that are gone is the ketchup and the mustard from the fridge…lol

The house was really empty when I got home and very filthy…Dust bunny’s dog hair etc from where furniture use to be. They didn’t even take the time to sweep up real quick.

I started to break down pretty bad but I got my self back up and went to the store to get some cleaning supplies because those were gone to.

I also got a new bed for our dog. It is going to take mea while to get the place fixed backup so it feels less empty. I am a little overwhelmed right now and feel like I got 1000 things to do….

Been an intense evening. I got the dogs room squared away and got some of my things moved back into the master bedroom.

Going to be a busy week.

Thanks
JAR


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## notreadytoquit

the ketchup, the mustard and the cleaning supplies! I know it is hard,but you should feel relieved. Someone will be so lucky to have you in their life jar! You will do fine. Do some painting, rearrange some left over furniture,put your touch to the house now. You don't have to do everything at once


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## Affaircare

JAR~ I know the house feels pretty empty right now, but may I give you something to look forward to? If you want, you can wantonly drink grape juice on your livingroom carpet now, because it's YOUR house. If you want, you can put your weights in the house. You are free. You can finally tear down the flowery curtains and make that manly bedroom you've always wanted:








In fact, if you want your place could look like THIS and no woman can stop you.  

(Please click on the picture of the "manly dog" for a special treat--and no worries, it's PG-13 but you'll ROFL)


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed

Remember, we all have to "fake it, until you make it" at times. That is OK, too. You will make it.


----------



## Lazarus

jar said:


> My lawyer has been really unavailable and slow to respond to anything since mediation.JAR





You pay your lawyer's fees; he/she works for you and takes your instructions in your timescale, not theirs and has to act in your best interests. 

Forget the nice phone calls that are being ignored...so far. A short email to your lawyer, politely spelling it out that you cannot, will not allow anything that results in a potential change in the agreement that disadvantages you and that it is an expectation that he acts swiftly and timeously in your best interests with your instructions.

Some Lawyers charge a fortune and frankly a lot of them are not worth it. It's a bad lawyer attitude that rubber ears your calls. Consider holding back the fees if you are encountering trouble and let the lawyer know in advance if not playing ball.

Remember, your paying for their kids lifestyle and if your lawyer is playing the game of ostracising you, let him know you are not happy about it.

Your wife's probably woken up to the deal that's been brokered and her lawyer maybe trying to create an opening to change it. Secure for yourself. Your wife ruined your relationship by stepping out. She made that choice all by herself, taking you into the realm of an "open" relationship WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT!

Her intrinsically deceitful, self serving behaviour, her utter betrayal has caused this current situation. 

What unimaginable things did she tell the OM? 

As one other poster said elsewhere... "Let them go".

Time is your healer and she will waken up...eventually and hopefully by that time you will have found someone new who cherishes you for the person you have become. 

If there is ever to be a reconcilliation in future years, it would, in fact, could only be on re-negotiated terms. Her behaviour - flauting the potential purchase of lingerie for the OM shows the depth of the hurt and pain she wanted to inflict upon you. Now it is her time to start hurting. 

Your wife will have learned, if not now, in the future, if it was all worth it. Pride of course may get in the way, but the joint visit to the church, the Jeep rides inidcates it wasn't totally dead in the water but the scars run deep. 

Someone who cheats, the utter betrayal and treachery has a serious character flaw. 

When you meet or know of someone who cheats or has cheated, particularly those with no remorse, remember exactly what you are looking at through the polished, charming exterior. 

Time will be your healer, Jar. Try to make your spare time fun. It will be hard but, if you can help others or some creature less fortunate, it will help but it won't take away the emptiness but it can fill some of the void in your life at the present time. 

Change your house to suit yourself. Life is full of possibilities. Who knows who you might meet whilst dog walking? 

Keep your head held up high. Lots of people here on this forum have learned about your story....60,000 odd views now and it will increase. Maybe you could write a book....."for the love of Mrs J."

You will do well. It is just a matter of when, not if.


----------



## turnera

You may want to send your lawyer a message to the tune of 'if I don't hear from you in a fair amount of time, I may have to check with the Bar Association (whatever they call the lawyers' organization there) to see if this is normal.'


----------



## karole

Call his office and ask to speak with his paralegal or secretary. Explain your concerns to them. Tell his staff how many times you have called and did not get a response. I assure you, they will relay the message to him and you will get a much faster response.


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## jar

Hi Guys

Thanks for the kind words.

I am trying to take things one thing at a time. I finished cleaning the up stairs of our house tonight and almost have it organized the way I want. 
I got a few ideas on how I want to rearrange things to make it more of a man space…
I am going to get some of my photography framed. I also have friend that is a pretty good black and white photographer and he is going to give me some of his prints tomorrow.
I think I am going to have to invest in some dishes and maybe some furniture.
It will help a lot.
It has been a pretty good day today.

Neighbors all know what is going on now. News travels fast. We never been very social with them. I guess our nick name in the neighbor hood is Ken and Barbie... I thought that was funny. 
Neighbors have all commented on how they didn’t like wife. They would wave and she would turn her shoulder to them for some reason.
I was always more social with everyone.

I have had so many people say things like this to me about wife. One neighbor told me that she had snowblowed our drive way for us and wife shoed her and her son away and told them she could do it her self.

Wife has had so many conflicts with people. I see why now. It is how she treats others. I never noticed until I was on the receiving end of it. It is like a social awkward lash out thing. It is tuff to explain. Even normal day to day conversation she can get like this. I can see why she has had such difficulties with her co workers now.

JAR


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## MrQuatto

Jar, now that she is out, make sure to change everything, locks, passwords, etc. If there is anything she did not take, too bad for her. 

Also, you need to get your lawyer wired straight. As was said before here, your the customer. They serve you and no one else.

Q~


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## tamara24

Jar, 

Your wife left her door open and is getting really upset because reality has hit her. Shhe is probably having some second thoughts. Leaving the door open was a way to see if you would say somethig to her. Goodness knows her pride isn't going to let her come to you. She knows she has hurt you,played you false, and humiliated you at every turn. Now she is wondering if she is making a mistake. The old Jar may have hurt her but the new jar that has made her laugh,helped her stay on her diet,and completed projects together is the man she wanted but pride would not let her say it or do anything about it. The otther man was a security that she could run to and rub in your face. Now all the affair has done has backfired in her face,

She may have been torn up over the dog,but those tears were also for what she has lost.the sad part is, if she would have just once asked if you could work this out, you may have given her another shot. She left the furniturre there as an excuse to talk to you, come pick it up once she is settled. She will try to see you again.it is up to you if you want that.

She needs to complete all the work you have done over all these months. She has built up too many resentments in her mind whether they were true o not to justify what her part in this was.you are a better man and you will get through this and come out better for it. Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

People like her have a LOT of work to do, to let down the walls, grow some compassion and empathy, to be able to give back. Most never will.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She never deserved you.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

iamnottheonlyone said:


> She never deserved you.


It's obvious that she was a bad person, forget her and do what you have to. 

I still say giving her the dog and anything else back is the only way to rid yourself of her completely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

Hello Jar,

If my memory serves me right your now ex wife signed the Divorce decree on Thursday. We know your keeping busy, just want to know how you are adjusting. I hope everything is well.

-Krismimo


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## jar

I am doing fine.

I have been busy with work and getting the house organized the way I want.

Sunday I bought new kitchen stuff. I boxed up all the old stuff cleaned out the cabinets and put things away in the places that I wanted them in.

Divorce decree stuff is signed just waiting on the judge at this point. I guess it takes 7-10 days.

I have heard from wife a few times through text messages. She wanted to know if the doctor left a message on the house phone. I guess she has a cold or something and he was going to call in a prescription or something for her.

I got my boat out of storage last week….I am looking forward to getting it in the water once it warms up a little bit more.

The dog and I seem to be adjusting to life pretty well so far.

JAR


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## krismimo

That is great Jar! The house is going to look great after you finish it you should invite some friends over and have a nice layed back dinner. I also noticed you still call her the wife, old habits die hard I guess, glade your doing alright.

-Kris:smthumbup:


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## krismimo

How is it going Jar? BTW any plans for memorial day coming up?


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## jar

Haven’t heard too much from the almost x wife…

I got a letter in the mail form her it was a title form for her car….With a note asking me to sign it. I think she traded in her really really nice 2 door sporty car for a ford fusion. Which is not her at all…I have a feeling it is something her family has pushed her into. She didn’t sound too excited about it when she told me about it a few weeks ago. I told her to just trade it in towards what she wants and what she will be happy with. She doesn’t have enough confidence to go to a dealership on her own she takes her dad and her dad only buys fords from the same guy he always buys from. All in all it sounded like a really bad bad deal she was going to get. I guess not my problem…

So with everything going on financially I have had to trade my new truck in. I traded it in for a fuel efficient car. I have been spending over 600 a month in gas getting back and forth to work. Little bummed but I can always get a truck again some other time in life.

Wife also wants to split our joint investments accounts up this week. I have been advised not to do this until the divorce is finalized. I let her know what my group of advisors have recommended and told her she is free to do whatever she wants and that I will not argue.

I am still doing just fine in all respects. I have been busy getting our yard cleaned up and getting the house set up the way I want. With work and everything I have been very busy with very little free time.

Memorial Day weekend is coming and I am hoping to do some boating. I am also going to be going to my god daughters 3 year old birthday party. I will be helping my buddy get things set up for the party for the next few weekends. His deck railing was ripped off this past winter by some falling snow and ice.

Nothing too exciting to report here
JAR


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## krismimo

Glade to hear you keeping busy.


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## jar

Well it is official I am divorced man as of last Monday.

I just got the paper work today. Almost made it till June 1…

Kind of surreal at this point. Not sure how I feel. I tried my best to change me and our marriage and wife still divorced us under her own free will.

Wonder how she is feeling at this point…regrets…relief…happiness…

It will be interesting to hear what happens with om and her in the next few months.

Hopefully life gets better for the both of us in the next few months.

I am ready to move on and put this all behind me. Not sure I have any feelings left for her.

I am excited about the future. I am also looking forward to doing a little dating this summer as well.

Thank you all for giving me a place to vent
JAR


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## turnera

Hope you have a fun summer.


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## Affaircare

JAR~

You know in instances like this I rarely know what to say. On the one hand, I'll be honest--it's sad that your marriage ended. So on that regard, I'll say I'm sorry that it's over. 

On the other hand, I am very proud of all the work you did, how you handled yourself, and how much you grew as a man and husband. I honestly do believe you tried everything that could be done to save it, and for that you can hold your head up high. In the worst possible circumstances, you behaved with high moral character and she made the choice to run rather than face herself. So on that regard, I will say, "Well done. You ran a good race completely to the end. Good job."

Finally, I am a little bit excited for you. You have life ahead of you filled with getting to be yourself and get to know yourself again (those crazy single days) and you have the joy of meeting a new woman with whom you can feel those butterflies again and with whom you can practice all the neat stuff you've learned with this marriage. YOU have the chance to have a healthy, mutual, mature, loving marriage and that is actually the most wonderful thing! So on that regard I can only say that I can not WAIT to see that day!! 

I'm so sorry and congratulations.


----------



## land2634

Jar,

Regardless of the outcome, I know I speak for many when I say I'm proud of the way you've handled it all. I've always felt a unique connection to your situation because we both came to this forum around the same time.

I'm so glad that we've both been able to grow as people. Affaircare, Tanelorn, and Turnera, among others, have blessed us with their presence and helping us along our path to become not only better husbands (present and future), but also give us a groundwork to help others deal with similar situations in the future. While the circumstances were much less than desirable, I'm glad (in a sense of we dealt the best we could) that I had someone on this forum to go through this with me as you did.

I know most people will tell you to find something that makes you happy, but I'll go even further: create your own happiness. Enjoy and focus on the positive things in life and make decisions and choices that will help you along that path.

If you're ever in West Texas for any reason, shoot me a PM. We can find a place, grab a cold one, and talk about life. Hope to continue seeing you around here.


----------



## turnera

Speaking of helping people, would you two mind going over to the thread titled "Help me a/k/a I think I'm going insane" by SDMack? 

He really needs to hear the wisdom of some men who've come before him. And he's not listening to those of us posting, he's so scared she's going to leave him that he's allowing her to stay in contact with her affair partner, so as not to rock the boat.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> Speaking of helping people, would you two mind going over to the thread titled "Help me a/k/a I think I'm going insane" by SDMack?
> 
> He really needs to hear the wisdom of some men who've come before him. And he's not listening to those of us posting, he's so scared she's going to leave him that he's allowing her to stay in contact with her affair partner, so as not to rock the boat.


I'd be happy to. Do you think you could PM me a link? I may just be completely missing it, but I don't see it listed.


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## turnera

land2634 said:


> I'd be happy to. Do you think you could PM me a link? I may just be completely missing it, but I don't see it listed.


 Sorry. See if this works. I don't know how to do that stuff. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/22522-help-me-k-am-i-going-insane-new-post.html


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## ahhhmaaaan!

Hey brother, don't feel too bad- you're not alone. This is MY last week here too. By the time she gets back from her trip, the realization that I'm gone is gonna hit her like a ton of bricks. By this time next week I'll be lounging in a small quaint apartment- much to my dismay- watching the NBA playoffs with some friends living like a bachelor again. It hurts, but I won't have to deal with her triggering me anymore. I'll crack a few brews for you too. Stay up my brother.


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## tamara24

Jar,

I wish you the best life has to offer. When I first read your thread, I could identify with your wife as I could sense the frustration, resentment, and angry feelings you described. But as you wrote,I wrote,you read,I read. Not just your threads but many people in our positions with a spouse that betrayed them. What I can tell you is while you and I changed,did a lot of work, and busied ourselves with improving the faults within ourselves, your wife remained constant. She held on to the anger and she is losing such a prize. 

Your life nor mine may not be perfect,but I am certain both of us are in better places now than where we have been. I wish you the best of luck for your future and I know you will find a very special person that will love and cherish the man you have become.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

Hey Jar, just curious to see how is everything coming along and how was your memorial day weekend? Hope to hear from you soon. -Kris


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## jar

I had a great weekend last weekend. Still have the sun burn to prove it…Spent time boating with friends and family.

Saw the hangover 2 very funny movie….

It has been just over a year since I first started posting here…I can’t believe this is all behind me now…

Huge relief off of my shoulders….I feel like I can finally relax again and figure the things out that I want out of life without the xwife…Really enjoying my JAR time right now and adjusting to life.

I am excited for the future I am also looking forward to meeting someone special in the future. I think I have a lot to offer to the right person. That’s really exciting to think about. I don’t have my eye on anyone yet.

JAR


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## turnera

Good for you!


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## sammy3

OMG !!!! I am only 20 days since d-day. When i found Jars post i could relate well. I cant believe the long road I have ahead of me... my heart keeps breaking over and over


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## Riverside MFT

Jar,
I read quite a few of your earlier posts and then some of your later posts. I feel like I am reading the posts of two different people. The first posts were laced with fear, desperation, and a lack of hope (no offense). Lately your posts are more confident, hopeful, and determined. You are ready to face the future, have new relationships, and make the best of your life. Way to go!! I hope you continue posting on here and helping others when their own world is turned upside dow because of infidelity.

I have a couple of questions for you:
What will you do differently in future relationships?
What kind of qualities/characteristics are absolutes in your future relationship (i.e. if she doesn't have those qualities, the relationship is over)?

Good luck again in moving forward!


----------



## jar

SAM

Things will get better with time….(Probably not what you want to hear right now…)

What really helped me get my mind off of things was keeping busy with something that interested me. Although it was the exact opposite of what I wanted to do most days…It does help

Riverside interesting questions….

The male chauvinist smart ass answer would be a supper gorgeous blond with an enormous set of cans sounds pretty exciting right now.…​
The serious answer for what interest me I don’t have fully figured out yet.


Many quality’s that I find attractive right now were ones that my x was lacking….

The type of woman that intrigues me at the moment is a woman who is confidant and comfortable with herself. Type of woman that isn’t afraid to call for dinner reservation …Someone whom is confidant. A good friend of mine who is a woman has no problem going up in front of a crowd of male engineers and getting a project organized and figured out…She if very confidant with herself.

I tend to be attracted to well-dressed classy professional woman with a career. My x wife fit into this category.

I do feel like shallow for saying this but physical appearance has some importance.

I am also interested in woman who has her own interest and goals in life whether it be a career or something else. But they actively pursue their endeavors and have a few interests in life.

Happy cheerful personality would be nice ….

I am also looking for someone that will allow me to be me. 

Most importantly I am looking for someone who is enthusiastic about being in a relationship and wants to work together to build a relationship that is happy and fulfilling for us both.
Things to look out for and drive me nuts

The lying dishonesty secretive
Not being ok to talk about the tuff stuff and work together towards a mutual agreement
Clingy 
Grumpy pessimistic attitude and outlook
Lack of self confidence
Bossy and demanding
What would I do different in this relationship.


I think one of the biggest things is when there were times I was unhappy grumpy irritable insecure I had a hard time talk about it. And letting the x now how I felt. I just held it in all the time. 

I would really take the time to understand the things that make the next person feel good and not so good and understand how it relates to the things that make me feel good and bad. I never truly understood this until after I moved out and took time to study my wife and her personality on my own

That’s where I am at on this it could change tomorrow….

JAR


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## sammy3

Jar, I hope your right about things will get better in time. I just want this pit in my stomach to go away. The roller coaster is so real. First MC this afternoon. I am so uncertain .


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## MisguidedMiscreant

jar said:


> SAM
> 
> Things will get better with time….(Probably not what you want to hear right now…)
> 
> What really helped me get my mind off of things was keeping busy with something that interested me. Although it was the exact opposite of what I wanted to do most days…It does help
> 
> Riverside interesting questions….
> 
> The male chauvinist smart ass answer would be a supper gorgeous blond with an enormous set of cans sounds pretty exciting right now.…​
> The serious answer for what interest me I don’t have fully figured out yet.
> 
> 
> Many quality’s that I find attractive right now were ones that my x was lacking….
> 
> The type of woman that intrigues me at the moment is a woman who is confidant and comfortable with herself. Type of woman that isn’t afraid to call for dinner reservation …Someone whom is confidant. A good friend of mine who is a woman has no problem going up in front of a crowd of male engineers and getting a project organized and figured out…She if very confidant with herself.
> 
> I tend to be attracted to well-dressed classy professional woman with a career. My x wife fit into this category.
> 
> I do feel like shallow for saying this but physical appearance has some importance.
> 
> I am also interested in woman who has her own interest and goals in life whether it be a career or something else. But they actively pursue their endeavors and have a few interests in life.
> 
> Happy cheerful personality would be nice ….
> 
> I am also looking for someone that will allow me to be me.
> 
> Most importantly I am looking for someone who is enthusiastic about being in a relationship and wants to work together to build a relationship that is happy and fulfilling for us both.
> Things to look out for and drive me nuts
> 
> The lying dishonesty secretive
> Not being ok to talk about the tuff stuff and work together towards a mutual agreement
> Clingy
> Grumpy pessimistic attitude and outlook
> Lack of self confidence
> Bossy and demanding
> What would I do different in this relationship.
> 
> 
> I think one of the biggest things is when there were times I was unhappy grumpy irritable insecure I had a hard time talk about it. And letting the x now how I felt. I just held it in all the time.
> 
> I would really take the time to understand the things that make the next person feel good and not so good and understand how it relates to the things that make me feel good and bad. I never truly understood this until after I moved out and took time to study my wife and her personality on my own
> 
> That’s where I am at on this it could change tomorrow….
> 
> JAR


Avoid everything your wife was, that'll lead you to the same old ****, go with the chauvinist option, treat yourself to a younger hotter chick that listens to you. That'll make you feel better if you decide to reenter the minefield called relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

I miss hearing from you Jar, how is the newly single life suites you?


----------



## jar

Old d Jar is doing ok….

This past week I had a few days that I was pretty down in the dumps. Not really sure why. Been living a life full of drama for so long and to come home to a silent house and just sit and be quiet is still a little different.

I have been spending a lot of time with my family and out on my boat. It is what I look forward to every weekend. It is a big disappointment when the weather does not cooperate.

I do think of my wife still some times its good thoughts sometimes not so good. It truly feels like she has died…

Today is kind of a special day. Today is the day we started dating a number of years ago and today is also the day I proposed to my wife. Today is also the dog’s b day to….

Wife is all over face book with photos she is all dolled up today. She is on some sort of dinner cruise with the OM. Even know we are divorced it is still really really hurtful.  It has me down in the dumps.

I think about getting out there and dating a lot lately. I miss having companionship and someone to talk to. Maybe this is the week I jump back in to the dating world. We will see…..

JAR


----------



## Squiffy

Sending you *hugs* Jar, always good to hear from you.


----------



## turnera

Just remember that HER dating was out of desperation and sickness, so her RESULTS are likely to reflect that. Good to hear you're starting to think about your new life. Good luck.


----------



## jar

Thanks guys....I have been doing really well but this one for some reason has got me triggered pretty good.. Actually it is driving me a little nuts...

I hope it passes soon.


----------



## lordmayhem

jar said:


> Wife is all over face book with photos she is all dolled up today. She is on some sort of dinner cruise with the OM. Even know we are divorced it is still really really hurtful.  It has me down in the dumps.


It's great that you're getting out of the house and keeping busy. But it isn't doing you any good by checking up on her on facebook. It's re-opening the wound, when instead, it should be healing. If you can't stay off of facebook, at least do yourself a favor and block her and OM. Out of sight, out of mind.

One day you will get to the point of being able to look at pictures of her and not getting triggered and hurt. You are nowhere near that point yet.


----------



## jar

I agree....Few steps forward and a few back....I guess


----------



## sexuallyfustrated

Jar, Two wks ago a stumbled across your thread. I was a few pages in before I realized that it began last yr in May. I have followed through unitill your last post. I I just finished reading the enitre thread ue to wk, life and the fact that many times I just had to stop. I found my self going through so many emotions as I read this thread. I was hurt for you, angry at your wife, upset with you for still pushing through even thought to me there was no light at the end of the tunnel yet rooting you on to win her back. I have cried while reading this, there were days I even went to bed depressed and feeling lost. Your thread toke me throught so much. I felt like I was apart of your life and I'm still not ceratin if that was a good thing or not. 

What I do know is at the end I saw it coming. I think a lot of us did but I was thrilled that even though I don't even know you I saw you and felt you come alive again reading your words. It was like a story of a modern day hero to me....lol. I can't explain it completely. To all that you have endured I am sorry. For all the hurt that you were made to feel, the doubt that it cause you within I'm sorry but for the man that emerged at the end. The person that you mangage to be in spit of her efforts to tear you apart I salute you. I know that it is still freash and you are still hurt but if it helps any your story, your post have helped me more than words can say. Not only your post but the post of those who where giving advice or just came by to say that they were supporting you in any form. What a great community of ppl here. Bless them and bless you Jar.


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## Spursmad78

Jar, an incredible story which fills me with hope for the future. I am currently going through a separation which I do not want but unfortunately my wife does. After reading the posts from start to finish you have truly inspired me.

I now believe in life beyond my wife and see agreat future ahead for me. These posts have been going on for a year and without a doubt should be turned into a book to encourage broken men throughout the world.

One word: INSPIRATIONAL

You are a credit to all the broken hearted men out there and I salute you my friend.


----------



## sexuallyfustrated

Spursmad78 said:


> Jar, an incredible story which fills me with hope for the future. I am currently going through a separation which I do not want but unfortunately my wife does. After reading the posts from start to finish you have truly inspired me.
> 
> I now believe in life beyond my wife and see agreat future ahead for me. These posts have been going on for a year and without a doubt should be turned into a book to encourage broken men throughout the world.
> 
> One word: INSPIRATIONAL
> 
> You are a credit to all the broken hearted men out there and I salute you my friend.


Not just men:iagree:NOT JUST MEN


----------



## ahhhmaaaan!

The nerve of her putting those pics on Facebook, knowing you'd look at them. I didn't see it throughout your thread- Was OM married?


----------



## sexuallyfustrated

ahhhmaaaan! said:


> The nerve of her putting those pics on Facebook, knowing you'd look at them. I didn't see it throughout your thread- Was OM married?


Ahhhmaaaan, the OM wasn't married. He had a girlfriend in the begining.


----------



## jar

Thank you for such kind words

I was just trying to figure a way out of this the best I could. While I have great family and friends and support network. None of them quite knew what I was experiencing. That is when I found TAM and started my thread. 

There are some wonderful folks on here many have offered me some good advice. It helped to know that someone out there was reading. Just writing my thoughts down helped. Some post simply said you will get through this and things will be ok. Some said smarten up you idiot. I thank you all…

I don’t have any real updates since my last post. I continue to work a significant amount and enjoy my profession and the direction I have chosen for myself. I have a fellow coworker that is driving me nuts…Management took us out to lunch today to try and get us to kiss and make up. It didn’t go well. I think I am pretty likable go with the flow kind of guy and this guy is difficult in every respect and we clash really badly. He keeps throwing me to the wolves and I am not putting up with it. I never had this problem before it bugs me a lot.

Things at home are still a little stressful. I haven’t got my routine down yet. Cooking cleaning groceries bills dishes can be a little overwhelming and I really have to push myself some days to stay on top of these things.

I spend most weekends with my family and have made many new friends through my younger brother. We have really gotten close this past year. 

I been thinking about doing the match.com thing and see how that goes. I been thinking I would like to do some dating. I have a few friends that have had some good experiences as well as some bad ones. I don’t interact with too many females. I work with pretty much all guys and my buddies are married so my social circle is really miniscule.

Welp that is about it in the world of JAR

Take Care
JAR


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## justsam

i just read through your thread, and i'm really glad you've turned the corner. what really bugs me is the fact these people seem to be carrying-on like life is so grand when they both ruined two other peoples lives. do you think this ever crosses their mind. i mean cheaters in who end up together. do they really realize what they have done out of their selfish behavior? sorry if i jacked.


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## turnera

jar, before you do something like match.com, spend some time thinking about what volunteer opportunities you can get involved with. I promise you, the people you will meet at such places will be so much more important than those you can find at online websites. Plus you'll be helping someone or something that's in worse shape than you. Which helps you feel better about yourself.


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## krismimo

Jar I think youshould do that, Tunera he Jar did all that before, plus I think breaking out of your comfort zone shows growth. JAR I I think you should do it. Good luck!


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## turnera

jar said:


> Cooking cleaning groceries bills dishes can be a little overwhelming and I really have to push myself some days to stay on top of these things.


lol, welcome to OUR world!

All men should have to do without their wives at least one week.


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## Chaparral

On a recent eisode of "Unfaithfull" acounselor said that all cheaters were narcissistic. Sounds like an awfully large blanket but looking at the symptoms it strikes close to home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


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## turnera

No way. I know lots of people who've cheated who weren't. For lots of other reasons.


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## jar

Hey Guys

It has been a while since I posted. Thing with old JAR are pretty well. It has been a very enjoyable summer with lots of boating and some new friends.

No bites on the house yet. X wife still continues to keep up her end of the bargain with the divorce and paying half the mortgage.
We really don’t communicate. Other week she sent me a few emails. I had a college professor of mine pass away this summer. She was only 42…Brest cancer. Few of us went to the funeral. Wife somehow new this and sent me a message saying how sorry she was to hear of her passing. I have no idea how she knew about this. She also contacted me about a few other things. She was supposed to take care of an escrow account and basically dragged her feet about doing it. She finally just gave up and asked me to do it. I don’t respond to anything at this point.

Also ran into one of her coworkers that I was good friends with be for this hole fiasco. The guy said I never thought I would see you again. We talked for a long time. He knew I took the high road in all this. I filled him on some more of the details. He called the OM a complete scumbag looser. Apparently wife brought him into work not too long ago and he was not well received. The company was glad to get rid of Om. His coworkers didn’t like him much. This guy also told me that they are nice to xwife but she doesn’t really get invited out to social gatherings etc. anymore. She is still a difficult person to get along with in the office and that many are alienated. Guy actually said she puts how she feels on everyone like it is our fault. Interesting….. He said my name comes up a lot still and everyone wonders how I am doing. He said that we would invite me out but they have to deal wife the x wife on a daily basis and that they were stuck in the middle. He says that he still can’t believe all this…we were the couple everyone wanted to be like.

I haven’t started dating or anything. I think about it a lot. Right now I am enjoying the peace and quiet and getting adjusted to life. It has been a lot of work to keep up with everything. Dating seems like a lot of work right now. Lol

The dog is doing ok….i really enjoy having her as a companion. She is still getting use to our life. She has accidents in the house about once a week. I think she is going through some doggie anxiety or something. I don’t know I been trying to figure this one out for a while now. She started this last summer when I moved out.

I continue to exercise every morning and have gotten in really good shape these past several months. I am down 37 pounds. All my friends tell me I look better than ever. Which is nice to hear.

Take Care
Jar


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## turnera

I wish you would have held this coworker up to REALITY - and said 'why CAN'T you invite me and deal with her sh*t?'


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## *purple**hibiscus*

Thanks for posting an update, it really helps us that are dealing with those situations in the present be assured better days are to come which ever direction they take


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## jar

.


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## Chaparral

Since Indian men generally marry in their twenties in prearranged marriages are you sure OM isn't married with children. The divorce rate in India is less than 2% so unless something really strange is up with him he has a family. 
Also, Indian men are typically very class conscious , sexist and racist. 
I would think he's just using your wife until he goes back to India. Have you had his position in India checked out. I wouldn't think that would be very expensive at all.
Start dating you might be surprised how much better you feel.
Wish you the best and good luck.


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## krismimo

Hey Jar know it's been awhile since you last posted which is understandable since you turn a new page in your life, I guess maybe now you can start a new thread Life after divorce. Have you started dating yet or thougt about it? Just curioius i hope you had a great summer!


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## GiveHeadaShake

Hi Jar,

I realize your last post to this thread was over 4 years ago, but I see you last signed on just a few months ago.

I’ve spent the last month +- reading over this thread and there is so much gold in there.

It would be interesting to hear how life unfolded for you post-divorce?

Hoping you are well,

GHAS


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## farsidejunky

Ditto.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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