# Changing Intimacy - Sexless Marriage



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Hello,

I am looking for insights to my marriage. It seems that sex has vanished because wife seems to always be tired or not into it. Perhaps she is depressed or hormones and health is impacting at age 49 and I am 46. We have a child and I really want our passion back.

When I try and discuss SEX she always makes me feel bad by saying that SEX is all I care about. She has said that if I had it twice per week I would not have any issues.

I am considering scheduling time with marriage counselor or sex therapist to try and progress this stale mate we seem to have. I know that she is not intentionally trying to be this way or hurt me and she seems to know how I feel its just that in the 18 months we had sex 3 times. She has not given me oral sex in a few years and she used to even give me massages when she was not in the mood ..now she has stopped doing that .. We have never had sex more than once in a day or a week ...Can I do something to SHIFT THIS ? 

It seems that she is the only one who says when we have sex or not. When I initiate with her she always tends to do a few things to avoid the connection physically, She either brings up things that are worrysome or stressful or she reacts with her thoughts about my initiations and how my overall throughline to relationship is sex.

Its really getting to me at this point. I feel like everything must be perfect in our lives before she can think about sex. Here is the thing when we do have sex its for 5-10 minutes and that is it ... I almost feel like she has sex with me because I want it and the last time I asked her why she seems to disconnect right away after sex... and her response was - you got what you wanted and now your unhappy ?

I do not want PITY sex and I can not seem to get the passion back in our lives .. Even though we have discussed this previously we cant seem to make any progress with our intimacy. It seems she likes spending time with herself and sleeping more than anything - in the last 2 days she slept like 22 hours ..

I wish there was some step by step guide on how to get my wife back in sexual mode... I have not been initiating lately and have been focused on purpose driven activities like work and getting things done but I can not do this forever ...

I want this to CHANGE , it just seems like a puzzle I can not solve ..


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some basic background for both of you would be helpful otherwise the Assumption Fairy will make all kinds of guesses...

- work
- children
- cultures
- physical shape 
- financial status 

Etc. Generally the milder cases can be fixed via DIY while the more advanced cases require some kind of intervention. Let's see how far we can go before calling the cavalry.

In some cases even the cavalry can't help...


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

- work
* We own a business and work together..

- children
* 7 Year old Girl 

- cultures
*American - Male 
*Indian - Female ( shouldn't matter grew up in US, modernized) 

- physical shape 
*Great shape: Better Shape in Now than ever before ! 
*We both work out with trainers
*Do Yoga 
*Eat Organic and Healthy Food

- financial status
* Most Bills paid 
* We earn income 
* Live in expensive error 
* Some stressors on us because of our own business/ new business ( last 2-3 years) 

-Sex in Past
* Yes, we had adventurous times, she was more aggressive and 
we have done crazy adventurous things, sex and oral in car and fun things .
All changed once she was pregnant with our daughter and especially after 
loss of parents 4 years ago ..


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, keep in mind I'm an honorary Desi myself and know a thing or three about marrying cross culture.

Could it be she feels "alone", stressed out with her parents gone etc? Also "most bills paid" is a bit less reassuring. 

Try to see what she has in mind... has she gone towards Indian culture lately? As a relief from non Indian life stress?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Perhaps. She never liked the culture and is very modernized. When I met her she was very non-conservative, tattoos, partying and more adventurous. Perhaps but how does marriage and our relationship not rate any time in life any more ? It seems like there is always an excuse to be not focused on the intimacy and always some other factor to not be focused on it ? I am trying to figure out how to progress it , because at the moment their seems to be a huge disconnect and she is always tired...and wants time by herself in bed to rest or to do what she wants ..


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Try whatever may work: talk, marriage counselling, reading up on love languages and relationships, etc. If you can't make a positive change in six to twelve months, you're essentially sexually or otherwise incompatible, and should divorce and move on.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Have not tried counseling. My wife seems into everything except working on intimacy.
Somehow lately she has justified that she is too worried about other things. She is worried
about the business, yet on the weekend we go and eat at great restaurants and do things 
with her family. She always schedules time for her family...or she comes up with great ideas
on things we should do to make money or buy that are good goals for us .. and helpful 
but we seem to ignore the intimacy and sexuality at all costs ... 

Its making me a bit crazy these days, I know having sexual urges and desires is normal 
and healthy but lately I feel like I have to pretend to not be in interested in it - so I do 
not come off needy or asking for it, which I do not want to do .. How can I SHIFT this.

I have read the books - I guess the counselor for marriage or sex therapist is next 
for me to schedule. for a while she was avoiding it and we had a long conversation 
3 months ago where she said she would go if I thought it would help me, she feels 
that I have issues and she has no issues that its all me, yet she did not want to 
ever go talk to anyone before. She seems to always move responsibility for everything 
on to me - relationship, money, issues, problems, she is never responsible for any of 
it., I seem to be a doer and she always seems to judge and give her opinions ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Have you told her what you said here? You might want to write her a letter. Just like you said her plain, don't accuse, entreat. This makes me feel like we only have sex when you want. It hurts my feeling, I want to be desired. Not, you don't make me feel desired. At the end something like, "I hope now you can see why this is a big deal to me, what can I do to make you want to do it more". 

Besides all that are you proactive in your house? Do you do things or does she have to ask you first? Are you leading? That doesn't mean telling her what to do, that means setting the example. Next are you trying to connect emotionally? I like to write notes myself. I leave them for her to find. I tell her I love her, I need her, how hot she is. You need to find the way to connect emotionally. Woman need that. Also since you have a business together sounds like you are always together, do you work from home? She might need a change of venue from time to time. What I am saying is some of this is up to you, you still have to court her.


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## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Have not tried counseling. My wife seems into everything except working on intimacy.
> Somehow lately she has justified that she is too worried about other things. She is worried
> about the business, yet on the weekend we go and eat at great restaurants and do things
> with her family. She always schedules time for her family...or she comes up with great ideas
> ...


Hate to be negative but is there somebody else or have her feelings changed toward you?
I see men writing this here again and again about disinterested wives. Not to be disrespectful but mainly from the US. My counsellor told me men from the US are more open to talking about things when I went to marriage counselling on my own:smile2:
How funny is that? After 25 years only I had a problem :smile2:
Marriage is for crazy people I think. We have made it to 27 though :x


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking for insights to my marriage. It seems that sex has vanished because wife seems to always be tired or not into it. Perhaps she is depressed or hormones and health is impacting at age 49 and I am 46. We have a child and I really want our passion back.
> 
> When I try and discuss SEX she always makes me feel bad by saying that SEX is all I care about. She has said that if I had it twice per week I would not have any issues.


That is her way of guarding herself from the issue. She feels as if she is to be attacked. This is one of the most difficult things for you to face. But, face it you must. Do you think she desires no sex? No. She desires a strong relationship, however, she most likely sees you desiring only more sex, while she needs other things that accompany it.

Basically, how this progresses will depend on your reaction to her "making" you feel this or that way. If you take it personally, things will not get better. You have to push through her defense, and you can't be the victim to do so.


> I am considering scheduling time with marriage counselor or sex therapist to try and progress this stale mate we seem to have. I know that she is not intentionally trying to be this way or hurt me and she seems to know how I feel its just that in the 18 months we had sex 3 times. She has not given me oral sex in a few years and she used to even give me massages when she was not in the mood ..now she has stopped doing that .. We have never had sex more than once in a day or a week ...Can I do something to SHIFT THIS ?


Yes. However, imposing a counselor or therapist on her can leave her feeling as if she has to change. Again, she needs other things. "But isn't that what the psychs are there for." Yes and no. She needs to get to the point that she is willing to work on things, and do so before seeing the psych. That is where you come in. You need to impose a very low cost of admission, analogously.


> It seems that she is the only one who says when we have sex or not. When I initiate with her she always tends to do a few things to avoid the connection physically, She either brings up things that are worrysome or stressful or she reacts with her thoughts about my initiations and how my overall throughline to relationship is sex.


That is pretty much how it goes... I'll get to the fix in abit.


> Its really getting to me at this point. I feel like everything must be perfect in our lives before she can think about sex.


Generally speaking, that is how it has to be. You brought up a good point. It isn't even a thought for her. How can she fix something that she doesn't think about? If she were connected to you, it would be a thought.



> Here is the thing when we do have sex its for 5-10 minutes and that is it ... I almost feel like she has sex with me because I want it and the last time I asked her why she seems to disconnect right away after sex... and her response was - you got what you wanted and now your unhappy ?


She gave you vaginal masturbation. It was for you. She didn't enjoy it. This indicates a lack of connection.




> I do not want PITY sex and I can not seem to get the passion back in our lives .. Even though we have discussed this previously we cant seem to make any progress with our intimacy. It seems she likes spending time with herself and sleeping more than anything - in the last 2 days she slept like 22 hours ..
> 
> I wish there was some step by step guide on how to get my wife back in sexual mode... I have not been initiating lately and have been focused on purpose driven activities like work and getting things done but I can not do this forever ...


The "how to" is actually extremely simple. Notice that I said simple, not easy. It is not easy, because you have urges and habits that tell you to take other actions. You are also driven by emotional impulses. Remember, I said your victimhood will get in the way. I wish it weren't the case, but it is a fact. So we have to approach this challenge in view of reality.




> I want this to CHANGE , it just seems like a puzzle I can not solve


Acceptance, my friend. The minute you accept that it might not change, you will make an incredible leap forward to (counter-intuitively) a better sex life. It is because you will free yourself up to focusing on building the connection.

Doesn't make sense, does it? Let me help.

When you want to achieve an erection, do you tell the fallace what to do? You don't. What happens if you did? Nothing would happen. Were you to have any belief in words>erection, you would become upset. So what do you do? You let your subconscious handle erections. You handle putting yourself into the context of the situation that an erection will occur in.

The context is not in place for her arousal. There are an incredible amount of things that can take her out of this context. When she feels that you just want to be with her, then we are getting very close. When she turns you down and you say that it is okay, we are getting closer. There is an incredible power behind acceptance and compassion.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> That is her way of guarding herself from the issue. She feels as if she is to be attacked. This is one of the most difficult things for you to face. But, face it you must. Do you think she desires no sex? No. She desires a strong relationship, however, she most likely sees you desiring only more sex, while she needs other things that accompany it.
> 
> Basically, how this progresses will depend on your reaction to her "making" you feel this or that way. If you take it personally, things will not get better. You have to push through her defense, and you can't be the victim to do so.
> 
> ...


This is all good but you never talk about what he needs? Marriage isn't a one way street. Basically your advice sounds like try harder.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

sokillme said:


> This is all good but you never talk about what he needs? Marriage isn't a one way street. Basically your advice sounds like try harder.


Boy meets girl.
Boy woos girl.
Girl has sex with boy (because boy has been wooing her)
Boy stops wooing girl (because boy figures that since she is having sex with him, he no longer needs to woo her)
Girl stops having sex with boy
Boy wonders why girl stopped having sex with him.
Boy does "everything in his power" to try to get girl to have sex with him again...everything EXCEPT woo her!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Vega said:


> Boy meets girl.
> Boy woos girl.
> Girl has sex with boy (because boy has been wooing her)
> Boy stops wooing girl (because boy figures that since she is having sex with him, he no longer needs to woo her)
> ...


OK this sounds like much more targeted advice. I actually said the same, just because you are married doesn't mean you stop courting her.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I have the following suggestions. 

Any progress must come in a discussion about something else. For example, let's say you withdraw, do not go to functions she wants, stop Yoga, and then she asks why. Then there can be some mutual give and take. Otherwise, she says, honey everything is fine, sorry I'm not in the mood, it's my problem not yours, and lets get back to your working and us not having sex. You need to understand if there are other problems in the marriage and she needs to understand that good sex is a part of a good marriage, and she cannot have the good marriage without reasonable intimacy. 

Do think about getting away to a romantic weekend since woman are influenced by context. 

You two probably spend too much time together with the job and think about separating part of your life.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dr. Obvious asks... could she be involved with some other person?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I would take her to her primary care physician PCP. She may have health problems.

Do a complete course of bloodwork. Check all the cause/effect markers for fatigue.

She may be depressed...may need medication. 

----OR---she may already be on some medication that puts her to sleep....quashes her libido.

An affair? Maybe. The narcolepsy tendency does not jive with infidelity?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

No one else . I have checked and she states she isn't even interested in having sex with anyone else ...

What do you mean don't go to yoga ..? We go separately ..and to gym separately ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking for insights to my marriage. *It seems that sex has vanished* because wife seems to always be tired or not into it. Perhaps she is depressed or hormones and health is impacting at age 49 and I am 46. We have a child and I really want our passion back.
> 
> ...


Sex has vanished but you are rejecting pity sex? Be VERY AWARE that by doing this you are REJECTING YOUR WIFE SEXUALLY and making her feel inadequate for you. 

Also do NOT call it pity sex! It is simply a situation where sex is one sided where one partner enjoys pleasing the other.

HYPOTHETICALLY if your wife had a raging desire and you had just masturbated. Odds are you would _really enjoy _pleasing her. Instead of cultivating this with her, you have rejected it and labeled it pity sex.

Hope that helps,
Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rejecting pity infrequent sex is far preferable to waiting for scraps. This way both partners know there's an issue. 

It's not rejecting your partner but rather rejecting the lack of effort and commitment to the relationship.

OP would do well to find out what she's getting out of the marriage as it is.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is all good but you never talk about what he needs? Marriage isn't a one way street. Basically your advice sounds like try harder.


I speak in terms of reality. Marriage *is* a one-way street. There is one way forward.... otherwise, it is no longer something we call a marriage. 

She has lost her way. He could learn a better approach, that will be like giving her a map. Otherwise, they remain disconnected. It might sound cold to some, but I find the truth to be very appealing.

When we say it takes two, or something along those lines, we are creating conditions in the relationship; conditions that almost always drive spouses apart.

Thanks


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking for insights to my marriage. It seems that sex has vanished because wife seems to always be tired or not into it. Perhaps she is depressed or hormones and health is impacting at age 49 and I am 46. We have a child and I really want our passion back.
> 
> ...





Vega said:


> Boy meets girl.
> Boy woos girl.
> Girl has sex with boy (because boy has been wooing her)
> Boy stops wooing girl (because boy figures that since she is having sex with him, he no longer needs to woo her)
> ...


So, sunchild, have you stopped "wooing" her?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I speak in terms of reality. Marriage *is* a one-way street. There is one way forward.... otherwise, it is no longer something we call a marriage.


Obviously I mean both parties have to work on it. How can she work on it if he isn't even allowed to identify this is a problem for him?

She needs the courtesy of knowing that this may have a big impact on their marriage.

How has she "She has lost her way" according to you?



Relationship Teacher said:


> When we say it takes two, or something along those lines, we are creating conditions in the relationship; conditions that almost always drive spouses apart.


Who is this "we" you speak of? So I get from your point that two people working together working as a team is "creating conditions in the relationship; conditions that almost always drive spouses apart."?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Just for the record I have not rejected pity sex. I am considering that because I feel that much of our sex is something that lasts 10-15 minutes after waiting months for it. I want it to be something BOTH of us want vs, there you go, that is what you wanted so can I move on from my day now...

As far as wooing her..What is that definition? My wife does not like surprises at all. I used to get her flowers and gifts and cards with no return response... I am lucky if I get a card for my birthday we usually go out to dinner and that is it , I dont even get sex on my bday ..LOL

My wife told me she doesnt like flowers and all she feels they are a waste of money . When I have texted my wife, flirted or sent her that I am thinking of her - her response is - always some comment like - no comment , or you think about sex a lot or how can you think of that at the moment - we have work to do , and that everyone has their faults ( me for thinking of intimacy) 

As far as wooing hmm.. how do I support her ?

* Every morning I wake up with daughter and I cook for daughter and me 
wake my wife up who spends most time in bathroom getting herself ready 
* I usually take my daughter to school everyday while wife takes shower and cooks her breakfast 
* I pick her up a coffee most days 
* I go grocery shopping 
* I pick up my daughter most days from school 
* I cook my own dinner most time if we dont go out to a resturant 
* I give daughter snacks
* 5 nights out of the week I put my daughter to sleep and give baths 
* on weekend I cook for daughter and get up with her while wife sleeps 
* I generate income for business and family - create opportunities 
* I take out the trash 
* I clean most of my dishes and put away 
* I wash most of my own clothes and if not I fold them 
* When my wife goes to gym or yoga - she can usually run there and I handle most of 
house or daughter while shes gone ...

So am I supportive, I think so very much 
When I bring up my needs or try to communicate I feel as if she shuts me down by saying : 
Oh your complaining again or you just care about sex..

What else do we do ?

We usually go to lunch every day together 
We take walks around the block together 
We watch movies and tv at night , that is her first suggestion - watch tv till shes tired 
She seems to avoid intimacy more than holding hands 
When we sit on sofa or in bed, I put my hand or hold her hand 
lately that is all I do ..

When she sleeps she stays on her side of the bed and she may put her hand on my leg that is 
it. She doesnt initiate kisses and if I do kiss her she does not like sloppy kisses so I just give her a light kiss....


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

How would I give my wife a map ? It seems like she wants to avoid this.. If she cast blame on me and makes most of this my responsibility then how do I get her involved in this ? It seems like she would rather spend time on other things. Frankly I am feeling a bit unappreciated, undesired and unwanted and its really having an impact on me and lately I feel this needs some urgency before we lose more years.

Is it bad of me to want to have a passionate relationship with my wife ?
Why do I want to work on this and she does not ?
Is it 100% the mans job to lead the way in life ?, Earn all of the money ? Drive the car ?
I almost feel like if I can make a million dollars and give her all she wants, I might get some of my needs fulfilled and until then we play this game of ..how can you think of this - if this other things is like that ?
I almost feel like on some subconcious level she is punishing me for things not being the exact way she wants them to be ..that may sound weird but it feels like that to me ...

Its driving me a bit NUTTY


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Today I started thinking a lot about this and me being the responsible one for much of the household income..I started thinking about how perhaps I should spend most of my time working on things that 
make money.. Lately I do not feel that me being around helps attraction and I feel less appreciated and desired makes me want to be busy just working. Perhaps I am taking this to the extreme but perhaps I need to just buckle down however part of me feels kind of frustrated... Perhaps if I work all of the time and make money that would be better instead of hanging around in this situation where my wife is not valuing spending time with me like she used to ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Just for the record I have not rejected pity sex. I am considering that because I feel that much of our sex is something that lasts 10-15 minutes after waiting months for it. I want it to be something BOTH of us want vs, there you go, that is what you wanted so can I move on from my day now...
> 
> As far as wooing her..What is that definition? My wife does not like surprises at all. I used to get her flowers and gifts and cards with no return response... I am lucky if I get a card for my birthday we usually go out to dinner and that is it , I dont even get sex on my bday ..LOL
> 
> ...


OK.

This would seem to eliminate the possibility that you're one of those a$$hole men who ignore their wife's needs and yet insist that they allow you to use them as a "hole" so that you can "get off".

So, can we get on to ideas for SunChild that might actually be applicable?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> How would I give my wife a map ? It seems like she wants to avoid this.. If she cast blame on me and makes most of this my responsibility then how do I get her involved in this ? It seems like she would rather spend time on other things. Frankly I am feeling a bit unappreciated, undesired and unwanted and its really having an impact on me and lately I feel this needs some urgency before we lose more years.
> 
> Is it bad of me to want to have a passionate relationship with my wife ?
> Why do I want to work on this and she does not ?
> ...


I'm surprised that none of the usual bunch offering worthwhile advice in this situation has shown up yet

Hopefully, if they don't show, I'll get the time to offer my suggestions.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The bunch knows a lost cause when it sees one... this isn't the case of 3 vs 5 times a week, this is Frigidistan at its best, same place my wife comes from...

If you're dealing with someone as described chances are she's depressed big time and looks to blame others. 

Is it fixable? Depends on effort she's willing to put into it.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Buddy 2000...love to hear your suggestions..how do u get someone depressed to actually take action without getting them upset. .it seems as the smallest thing can upset her ..or distract her from important things ...I feel as if I am playing the same record over and over when we communicate and it's always leads to the same place ..stuck. .and not much progress of any kind ....


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Today I started thinking a lot about this and me being the responsible one for much of the household income..I started thinking about how perhaps I should spend most of my time working on things that
> make money.. Lately I do not feel that me being around helps attraction and I feel less appreciated and desired makes me want to be busy just working. Perhaps I am taking this to the extreme but perhaps I need to just buckle down however part of me feels kind of frustrated... Perhaps if I work all of the time and make money that would be better instead of hanging around in this situation where my wife is not valuing spending time with me like she used to ...


Dear Sunchild, you sound like a great H and in a situation many men face with a peri-menopausal woman.

Your wife is older, at 49 is likely in the midst of changing hormones. It plays havoc with the sex life, at this age many women have little or no desire for ses, feel undesirable, and sex is the last thing on their minds. 
The other problem is that you are still in your prime (46) and like all men sex is an important way of staying connected to your wife. She needs to be educated on this (many women don't realise the importance and the damage lack of sex can do to a marriage as they are not driven by the same needs).

I would suggest
1. you get literature (hopefully men can help here, perhaps, HIs Needs Her Needs) to let her see that you are not her and have different needs. 
2. Ask her to go and have her hormone levels checked. She made need HRT or some sort of herbal remedy. If she is Indian then she might like to try Ayurvedic supplements from places like Himalaya. Shatavari is excellent for perimenopausal women, (I use it myself). The bioidenticals made me worse, sex was the last thing on my mind
3. Be frank and honest but loving. Do not disengage or withdraw from her at this point. Women at this stage of life begin to see things very differently about their lives, what they have sacrificed, the part you played, etc. The levels of oestrogen have dropped so the nurturing, caring characteristics are often replaced with a more self centered woman who starts to consider her own needs above all others. I kid you not 

read this blog, it is very insightful.
http://www.theperimenopauseblog.com/35-symptoms-of-perimenopause-loss-of-libido/



I am saying here that this is a new phase in your lives and you can work through it.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Aine..

Unfortunately no matter how I bring things up she always reviews ans responds how it's all about me wanting sex..I talked to her one time about communication because I felt that was the root issue and she summed it up saying of we had regular sex 2 times per week I wouldn't have any issues at all...

I just do not know how to get her to want to get a blood test ..it was suggested before them she will say how can I afford that ..it's always an excuse ...is there a place they do the tests for less than a doctor ...?

It's seems that she tends to take everything personally ...I asked her of she was sad or depressed and her response was ..you think there is something wrong with me ....it's always some reaction ...how do I get through to her ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Aine..
> 
> Unfortunately no matter how I bring things up she always reviews ans responds how it's all about me wanting sex..I talked to her one time about communication because I felt that was the root issue and she summed it up saying of we had regular sex 2 times per week I wouldn't have any issues at all...
> 
> ...


Sunchild, you have to be frank with her. Tell her you love her very much but something has to change otherwise your marriage is over. It is not a matter of threatening but all you have done to date has not helped. 
Perhaps you should start the 180 on her if she refuses to meet you half way. Start focusing on yourself, get healthy, get fit, occupy your time and do activities where you do not need her participation. You need to focus on yourself, I know that wont help the sex thing but if you continue to go after her she will pull away more. 

How does she feel about MC. The other thing you have to consider is that she is of an asian culture, maybe westernised but many women in that culture start to sleep separate from their H when the kids are grown. You need to discuss your expectations


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Obviously I mean both parties have to work on it. How can she work on it if he isn't even allowed to identify this is a problem for him?
> 
> She needs the courtesy of knowing that this may have a big impact on their marriage.
> 
> How has she "She has lost her way" according to you?


He's identified it is a problem. She took it personally. She feels victimized. She feels that he is a perpetrator, not a victim.

Marriages are far more complex than we think.

She lost her way, as she is unable to see his concern for what it is. 


> Who is this "we" you speak of? So I get from your point that two people working together working as a team is "creating conditions in the relationship; conditions that almost always drive spouses apart."?


"We" is really every person. It is just so easy for someone to take an approach that drives partners apart, versus together.

There are a million examples. ..

If she turns him down for sex, and he removes his intimacy from the equation. Think of this as two people turning away from each other, instead of only one.

It could also be her seeing him like a picture of a random woman on Facebook and determining that that action means he is not attracted to his own wife, or doesn't love his own wife. Feeling this way, he gets yelled at, cold shoulder or is stonewalled.

But didn't it take two? In these examples, both attacked each other, somewhat. The OP feels that he is being victimized by his wife. But, he is awake enough to try to do something about it. His wife just feels victimized.

I place a ton of responsibility on the one that wants to make things better. I do it in a tough, but realistic way. We have to get past the walls of the one that has lost their way. Otherwise, there will be no rekindling of the romance.

Thanks


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Sunchild:

This is now a power struggle.

Sometimes the best thing you can do in a power struggle is simply drop the rope.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

It's all about control. Again, women control 100% of the p***y.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You have a few options, and none of them are going to be fun.

First and foremost, I would schedule a marriage counseling appointment. Don't ask her about it, just do it. Set it up for a time that will not compete with work. Once you have scheduled it, tell her that you have scheduled the marriage counseling appointment, and you would like it if she would go as well. If she does not show, you are really only left with one of the four options below.

1. Get your needs met outside the marriage (not recommended).

2. Divorce. 

3. Acceptance. 

4. Destabilize.

If it were me, I would choose option 4. Stop doing anything that is specifically for her. That includes getting her coffee, back rubs, foot rubs, whatever you do that is just for her. No more listening about her day, venting to you, none of it. Fill your time doing things for yourself and your child only. Do not initiate any more conversation with her nor should you seek her out for anything.

If she gets mad over this, that is actually a positive sign. You should have a simple response:

"You have made it clear that my needs don't matter in our relationship. When you are ready for them to matter again, please let me know."

At this point, she will likely say this is all about sex again. When she says that, shrug your shoulders and say:

"I see it differently."

Or:

"I am sorry you feel that way."

Don't take the bait.

Any further engagement on this subject is her putting you on the defensive over something that is perfectly natural in a healthy relationship. Why are you allowing her to do this?

If she does not say anything about you destabilizing, then the marriage is likely over, or her depression is simply too strong.

I personally hate how destabilizing makes me feel, but hate it much less than being with a partner who treats my needs like they do not matter or divorce.

When destabilizing, give it six months maximum. If no changes occur, you are really only left with option 2.

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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

philreag said:


> It's all about control. Again, women control 100% of the p***y.


Uh, yeah...it IS THEIRS.

Not sharing is the problem!

This is part of the reason ISIS has so many followers. They want to OWN the pu**y's.

Bad, bad.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

We had sex 3 times in the last 18 months. No oral sex for me. I have given her oral sex before sex.
2 of the 3 times were at 5 am in the morning in which she started them... and its always quick. Like do you want sex and its quick before daughter wakes up for 10 minutes...

She said she would go to MC and I have called a few sex therapists however she is very judgmental about paying people...however I want our sex and passion to improve I thought someone who specializes in sex could be helpful although for her it could be another ingredient that could support that all I care about is sex... 

I do think there is on subconcious defense level some kind of power struggle. Its kind of like she said to me - "If" i had sex with you 2 times per week - we would not have ANY ISSUES with "Us" - so she knows that however we only have sex every few months.

The last time we had sex was like 3-4 weeks ago and its never as long based on her. For example we had a conversation that we had sex twice in a year and she was actually surprised that it was that long... like she lost track of time....Perhaps her system is tapped out on some hormonal level. She went to a naturopath however they did not do any in depth panel of blood tests ...

Lately she always wants to plan event and activities with all of us and her brother for holidays however I seriously want her to come up with an idea of her and me to have a weekend together somewhere romantically . When I have planned that in past it has never worked out ... I feel a bit frustrated around this because its kind of been a long time of me settling for what I get .. I have never turned away sex...

She used to at least give me a massage. I was thinking of asking for that like she used to do when I am turned on - however I got to the point where she would make me feel good and then she would lay down and go to sleep and it made me feel kind of weird that she just did not want to have sex with me however she would make me feel good... I started thinking - what is going on here and asked her and and she would say that she does not feel like it ....

I wish so badly that I could get the spark back, however I have stopped initiated lately and asking her because when I did she would always identify that my relationship her revolves around sex and I think her response is always a defensive mechanism.... like a distraction tactic..

What is weird is our daughter is not in home from 8 am to 4 pm and we have never had sex during the day during that time because she is always focused on work... I want her to want me - like we used to feel ...I really do want to change this or something needs to be done..

I may have to schedule appointment with a counselor which I am sure will stress her out like everything does but if we do not start working on some way to progress this it will be in the same place and I do not feel even after long talks that we make any traction.

The last discussion / conversation / argument we had months ago led to her writing me like a 5 page letter saying how she is responsible for many things and no where in her life does she get to be carefree to relax and be sexual.. In the letter she did not acknowledge all of the activities that I do daily and weekly around the house to make her life easier .. 

I responded with let me think about this email : because I did not want to fall into TIT for TAT or I do this and you do this. Perhaps I should reply to the email however I always feel I listen to her amazingly and when it comes to her really hearing me - she always shuts me down by giving her judgements and redirects things back on me ...its like she is great at making me feel like its all me and she has nothing to do with any of it ..

Money is on me to make it and my fault if we dont have enough 
Sex is on me and how I act 
Our life is all about what i do ...
Yet she gets her way with what she wants to do -


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Well, keep in mind I'm an honorary Desi myself and know a thing or three about marrying cross culture.
> 
> Could it be she feels "alone", stressed out with her parents gone etc? Also "most bills paid" is a bit less reassuring.
> 
> Try to see what she has in mind... has she gone towards Indian culture lately? As a relief from non Indian life stress?


This is called Culture Shock......for both of you.....not.

Since she was raised in the West, she has been Cross Pollinated, culture wise.

This "frigidity" crosses all cultures. And yes, some males have cold hands and flagpoles.

I do admit, those cultures who keep strict guidelines and restrictions on women's sexuality do the future/current husband serious damage....most of the time. Trying to undo the mental chastity belt is often FUTILE.

On the flip side, those cultures that [encourage] women to "run wild" and "be free" have their own set of problems. These women find it hard to settle down in a marriage...and live happily.... with one man.....this is a general statement, of course.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, you say 'I've read the books." What books, specifically?

Second, fsj is right - stop doing so much for her. When men start becoming servants to their wives, the wives soak it up and run with it, and become unhappy. Because women don't WANT weak men who cowtow to them - they want strong, assertive (but not mean) men who do what they want and don't beg. IIWY, I'd have a sitdown about the chores list and divide it up more evenly. It's very unusual to have a woman who's not bathing her kids or putting them to sleep, as least half of the time.

To that end, she may be depressed at how life has turned out. With depression comes being exhausted all the time - thus, sleeping 11 hours a day. Don't just go tell her you think she's depressed - TALK TO HER. ASK her about herself, her feelings, how life has turned out, what she wishes she could have done differently. Nearly all women want an emotional connection, and you two are in a very big, very long-term rut - you're on autopilot. And when women go from one mind-numbing chore to another, all day, every day, there's no room left for emotion or affection or passion.

So find out what's going on! You go for walks, what do you talk about? That's the perfect time to start reconnecting emotionally.

Third, if you'd read His Needs Her Needs, you'd know that you two should spend 10-15 hours a week together doing DATING stuff. Since you work together, that makes it harder. But you can do it. Now, I'm not saying to go out to eat every night and leave the daughter at home. That's not dating - that's just another routine. When you make coffee, sit down with her and drink it and talk about your day. Get a crossword puzzle book and do a puzzle together now and then. Set up a jigsaw puzzle and invite her over to work on it with you. Instead of going to fancy restaurants every weekend, find NEW things to do; there are websites in every major city with access to thousands of activities. NEW experiences (note I'm getting away from the routine?) are what bond people together, just like when you were dating. And give you tons more things to talk about!

Finally, you thought of distancing yourself. That's absolutely a good thing, to an extent. You BOTH should have outside interests so that you are fulfilled in more ways than just being together. Her seeing you going out to play golf or basketball or fish...that helps her admire you for being a confident, non-needy man who values himself as much as he values her - and THAT is attractive.

Now, what books have you read, again?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I just got his needs her needs.
I have read :

MMSL - Married Man Sex Primer 
5 languages of love many times 
the superior man by David Deida
Non Violent Communication 
Passionate Marriage 
No More Mr Nice Guy 
Soulmate Experience 
Ask and it is Given 
Vortex 
Sheet Music
Power vs Force 
Sex Begins in the Kitchen 
Mindful Attraction Plan 
Intimate Communion 
The Four Agreements 
The New Earth 
Intimacy by Osho 
Dont Be Nice - Be Real 
The Sex Starved Marriage 


I have done sessions for 3 months with an intimacy coach ( on my own ) 
2-3 calls with sex therapists ( 1 with wife and other on my own ) 

My wife doesnt seem to read any books on marriages.
She is great at looking up diets and shopping online ...LOL
She doesnt seem to want to read any - Should I suggest one to her ?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No.

So, in terms of No More Mr Nice Guy, how do you see yourself? In terms of personality and in terms of actual, physical, day-to-day actions?

And would you say your decisions for choices are guided by your desire to reach this state of intimacy how many times a day? One? Five? Twenty?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Before you start a bunch of counselling you need to rule out the possibility of another person involved here. If (hopefully) there is not, then you can go down the counseling road.

Look up user weightlifter's Standard Evidence Post.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

There is no third party unless their name is "sleep, worry and work". I notice my wife tends to think and gravitate towards negative topics. She will spend time talking about religous issues or political issues with harsh opinions on things that literally talk for the sake of having an opinion ...

She spend lots of her energy on things that do not give her energy ...

She does go to Yoga and works with a trainer on her own. Whats funny is she watches everything I do like what I eat, where I spend my time, how I make money and even when I go do all of the shopping when I get home she inspects all of what I got to see if I messed up some how or did not get the right thing. She wont say thank you and has even shared that she will not put me on a pedestal and appreciate me if that is what I am looking for ...its weird that was never her thoughts when we first got together .

When we were dating we had normal sex, she initiated and we even did things in the car 
less conventional approach to it - hiked naked, oral in the car and sex in the car ..now 
she seems to be shut down to it . yet she says she has nothing against SEX or having it ...

As far as reading about intimacy I stopped reading because I feel as if stuff I am trying or reading has to have your partner involved .. I do not know.. I want to solve this or gain some traction in this ..

Lately I have focused on things I can impact and progress in because its a better feeling thought then me getting rejected constantly or judged by my wife ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

philreag said:


> It's all about control. Again, women control 100% of the p***y.


And again, this fact has largely been lost on the TAM hoi polloi since time immemorial.

I know a few mid 40's plus Indian women and many Asian women of that vintage or older, and I'll say that the chance of any of them having a healthy sexual appetite isn't quite as high as from other parts of the world. It's not ethnic makeup as much as it is priorities, these women either are at the top of their career, bored stiff with being an SAHM with older kids, or stuck in a job they don't like and even in a community they're not fully into. 

That's been my experience with dozens of women from that part of the world living on the USA including the one I married and a couple I dated before and we are still good friends. Maybe I ran into all the less amorous ones and there's tons of them elsewhere curling the bedsheets, I don't know. 

I realize we are talking about many ethnic groups here and my experience is limited to a narrow set, professional women or women married to high achievers. Maybe you've seen different.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> john,
> 
> Are (east) Indian people especially frightened of struggling financially? It seems so to me, but maybe I'm getting the wrong impression.


Yes. Big time. Especially tech workers and professional types. It's no surprise that they all push their kids to med school 😂


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> I just got his needs her needs.
> I have read :
> 
> MMSL - Married Man Sex Primer
> ...


Impossible! 

This comes across as "All bridges crossed" and all T's crossed.

You are boxing us into a corner, taking away all ammo for advice.

You know more than us. Why are you here?

Sorry, nobody does this. A polished apple you be.

So polished its shine blinds all, but me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the other partner does not cooperate you could read everything the Library of Congress has and still it won't help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or, you could do what we're suggesting and take a good hard look at yourself and see what YOU can change about yourself so as to get her more interested in you. Or you can just sit there and blame everything on her...and get nowhere.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

@sunchild15

I see that farside has weighed in. Do what he says. Destabilize.

Also, check Mem's "temperature" thread. I think it's a sticky in the men's forum.


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## ambulance.girl5 (Jul 6, 2016)

Sunchild15, you say you've read "The 5 Love Languages"? What is your wife's "live language"? Are you communicating within her language? 

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## ambulance.girl5 (Jul 6, 2016)

ambulance.girl5 said:


> Sunchild15, you say you've read "The 5 Love Languages"? What is your wife's "love language"? Are you communicating within her language?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

I refused to have sex with my wife. Didn't have sex for almost 5 years before I left her. I resented her, actually hated her. I was repulsed by her, not just because she gained weight, but because of the way she treated me. My fix was a divorce. I was having great sex again with other women weeks after separating. Life is too short to be miserable.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> @sunchild15
> 
> I see that farside has weighed in. Do what he says. Destabilize.
> 
> Also, check Mem's "temperature" thread. I think it's a sticky in the men's forum.


Destabilizing when you have the couple working together for many hours a day working side by side with little outside contact.

What could possibly go wrong😂

It really pains me to see the usual DIY suggestions given to a hard case like this. But TAM is as TAM does so...

The OP has a wife from a different ethnic and cultural background, perimenopause. Possibly financial issues she sees as serious, and depression and all the peanut gallery has to offer is "detach"???

I've detached from my wife in the prescribed manner and worse for the better part of 2 years. Let me give y'all a hint: it don't work. Not in these cases. The wife is happy she does not have to deal with me... so she don't need to change herself.

Detaching may work when husband is working in an office full of good looking chics and interns, but not when they're side by side. 

Start with a serious psych workup, preferably with a psychologist from her own culture, and see what comes out. Do it because you care for her. You can win 6 medals in the Olympics and it won't matter.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> Unfortunately no matter how I bring things up she always reviews ans responds how it's all about me wanting sex..


This is where you surprise her and AGREE with her.

Yes, it IS all about sex. That is, if we don't have sex, then my love for you will slowly erode over time no matter what else we do together or how good the relationship is in other ways. I don't want my love for you to erode, so we need to deal with this. No, there isn't anything else that can replace sex for me. If you really and truly don't have it in you to work toward a mutually satisfying sex life, that is OK. We'll both survive. But we will need to work toward divorce. Because we will be surviving separately.

That is not something you say unless you are prepared to divorce, and not something you say more than once to any spouse. You say it. They change or they don't. If they don't change, you file.

In this type of situation, if you aren't willing to divorce, the odds of getting your wife to have more and better sex with you are near zero. So I will dispense with the typical advice to hit the gym and get fit and get a new wardrobe and rock her world and cut to "decide if you can bring yourself to divorce over this, and if not, reconcile yourself to a life of sexlessness".


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

john117 said:


> Destabilizing when you have the couple working together for many hours a day working side by side with little outside contact.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong😂
> 
> ...


Destabilizing usually doesn't work.

Divorce always works.

Getting her to do a psych workup, hope the doctor agrees that there's a problem, she makes a good faith effort to improve because of what the workup found......?

I guess that's _possible_


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> This is where you surprise her and AGREE with her.
> 
> Yes, it IS all about sex. That is, if we don't have sex, then my love for you will slowly erode over time no matter what else we do together or how good the relationship is in other ways. I don't want my love for you to erode, so we need to deal with this. No, there isn't anything else that can replace sex for me. If you really and truly don't have it in you to work toward a mutually satisfying sex life, that is OK. We'll both survive. But we will need to work toward divorce. Because we will be surviving separately.
> 
> ...


 @sunchild15

This too


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

It's so funny that I was thinking about when I used to be at work all day my wife's excuse at the time would be I haven't seen you all day...or talked to you...when I work with her all day it's always why are you more focused on me then work...

What's interesting to me is that when you get married and hopefully you become a team and there are responsibilities and in this day and age if a man sacrifices his time and does things for the benefit of his family even though he doesn't always want to do them...it can go unappreciated and yet ...feelings have much more to do with the wife ....

Perhaps it's just where I am looking at within my relationship but I would assume if you make a commitment to someone for the rest of your life they would not play games or at least take in consideration what each other wants ...

And as I also understand if your health is off and your out of alligmment perhaps that is why you can't see things is because your in a fog already..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Thanks.
I appreciate your insights ..we are both in shape and good looking...perhaps I am being too compassionate because I feel bad for her losing her parents and she always seems tired however lately she makes weird choices.
.I will go to leave on a trip or work and before I leave or the night before she will stay up working or cleaning when the following day she won't see me...it's weird to me...like my mentality was always I won't see you so let's sit together or spend intimate time together ...hers is always let me stay busy and ignore you...and when I am around she spends time on other things ...it's almost backwards ..to me ...

So I guess it's my expectations that all of this can change and get better but it seems like a similar cycle...I do have to set an appointment with a marriage counselor and do you think of its one that does sex therapy that could upset her? Does it matter ? How come she always wants to know what I am doing and when I am coming home and yet when we are together it's all about work..talking about her worries and concerns and even after hours of listening ..she us then exhausted and goes to sleep...I feel like I'm a great listener and lately she is now complaining that she has to lead talking because I don't say much any more and honestly ...I don't want to be judged or I feel that the focus and space is always on her and what I need to do vs ....what I want and what about me .. ? I have told her I don't need material things and gifts that I would rather spend time with her then have stuff ...

A question for other husbands :

Do you ask your wife for sex ?
Do you ask for oral sex ?
Do you ask your wife if she wants oral ?
Do you ever just straight out ask?

I have offered massages and foot rubs ro get her to relax and perhaps move her brain thinking to get her back in her body..out of her head ...



Just thinking out loud..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> We had sex 3 times in the last 18 months. No oral sex for me. I have given her oral sex before sex.
> 2 of the 3 times were at 5 am in the morning in which she started them... and its always quick. Like do you want sex and its quick before daughter wakes up for 10 minutes...
> 
> She said she would go to MC and I have called a few sex therapists however she is very judgmental about paying people...however I want our sex and passion to improve I thought someone who specializes in sex could be helpful although for her it could be another ingredient that could support that all I care about is sex...
> ...


Please ask her to go get bloodwork done on her hormone levels, she does love you from what you say, she's just not so into the physical aspects of the marriage.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Maybe sex just isn't all that important to her, but because it is to you...she is willing to 'do it' to please you. This is why it doesn't last long. Maybe she is afraid to let herself completely go and have an orgasm. Maybe she is afraid to be entirely vulnerable with you. Strikes me as it could be those things, over it being personal with you, although it might feel that way. It seems like you both share a lot of common ground, but she just doesn't enjoy sex like you do, or desire it like you do. This doesn't make her wrong and you right, or vice versa, but it just means you need to find a compromise. It's unfortunate that it can't be as spontaneous and intimate as you might like, but...is this a deal breaker if things remain this way? Maybe that is the question you need to ask yourself, because it doesn't sound like your wife wishes to change this, so this might be as good as it gets. I hope you find a way to be at peace with whatever happens.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Perhaps it's just where I am looking at within my relationship but I would assume if you make a commitment to someone for the rest of your life they would not play games or at least take in consideration what each other wants ...


You have assumed wrong.

You can live in the world as you'd like it to be, or you can live in the world as it actually is.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> A question for other husbands :
> 
> Do you ask your wife for sex ?
> Do you ask for oral sex ?
> ...


Well, I don't "ask". That's weak.

I will say "I'd really like a blowjob".

I don't ask my wife if she wants oral. If we're in an intimate situation, I just do it. Otherwise I might tell her how much I'd like to go down on her.

You might be able to improve your situation, but it's going to take a *lot* of work. And it's more likely to help you in your next relationship than in your current one.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A receptive spouse will happily participate.

A responsive desire partner has a great chance of participating.

A low desire partner has a low chance of participating.

A zero desire partner will be in the next area code before you've uttered three words.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> He's identified it is a problem. She took it personally. She feels victimized. She feels that he is a perpetrator, not a victim.
> 
> Marriages are far more complex than we think.
> 
> ...


Sorry Doc, I think your approach is way too one sided. What if she just doesn't really care enough to get out of her comfort zone?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Money is on me to make it and my fault if we dont have enough
> Sex is on me and how I act
> Our life is all about what i do ...
> Yet she gets her way with what she wants to do -



Doesn't really sound like a good marriage. I think you should let her know exactly what you are feeling. You guys won't last like this.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> I refused to have sex with my wife. Didn't have sex for almost 5 years before I left her. I resented her, actually hated her. I was repulsed by her, not just because she gained weight, but because of the way she treated me. My fix was a divorce. I was having great sex again with other women weeks after separating. Life is too short to be miserable.


One question why 5 years?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> If you really and truly don't have it in you to work toward a mutually satisfying sex life, that is OK. We'll both survive. But we will need to work toward divorce. Because we will be surviving separately.


You can do this an be vague about the result at first. 

If you really and truly don't have it in you to work toward a mutually satisfying sex life, then I am not sure we will survive.

Just leave it at that. However if this is as big a deal to you as it seems and you are reading 10 books eventually you probably will not make it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> It's so funny that I was thinking about when I used to be at work all day my wife's excuse at the time would be I haven't seen you all day...or talked to you...when I work with her all day it's always why are you more focused on me then work...
> 
> What's interesting to me is that when you get married and hopefully you become a team and there are responsibilities and in this day and age if a man sacrifices his time and does things for the benefit of his family even though he doesn't always want to do them...it can go unappreciated and yet ...feelings have much more to do with the wife ...


Dude are you saying this! As harsh as you just wrote it now, or are you just begging? To me it sounds like you are just passively begging. You should be saying a version of this to her. Plain and simple and assertive. "This is how I feel. That needs to change. If there is something you need from me to help you get in the mood tell me and we can work on that. But I mean work on that. Right now I don't feel loved without sex, as my wife you need to understand this. Now that you do if we don't work on this then you are telling me where I stand as far as your priorities. If my feeling love is not my wife's priority how do you expect me to stay married to you. I am with you to feel loved. Not for cars, and houses, and careers, I can get them on my own." Period, no discussion, no "all you think about is sex". I would say this and leave for a while (maybe go on your trip), she needs the come to Jesus moment and from everything you are telling us this is a deal breaker, Tell her. Your posting on here is passive to some extent. You need to be honest about how serious this is. Your wife deserves to know this and a chance to fix it. Quit writing about the problem and deal with it head on.

Seriously the stuff you are posting on here is sounds like a pity party. No wife is going to want to have sex with a husband who is like that.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Seems like 2 first logical steps based on Any conversation in past not being effective ..

1 appointment with counselor 
2 blood test panel for hormones and depression...

Everytime we discuss this I get reactive and evasive answers that move to other things . I have asked what I can do and worked on myself ..however if you ask and your partner can't answer or doesn't that seems to be an issue


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SC: You are dancing around the central point. There may not be ANYTHING you can do to get this woman to have sex with you more frequently or more enthusiastically. If that is the case, are you leaving? If not, realize it is your choice to stay and be relatively sexless. Accept that you want others things more than you want a great sex life. No one gets everything they want out of life. Sex may be the thing you don't get. Not fair, but life isn't.

On the other hand, a lack of sex is more than enough justification to get divorced and go looking for a more compatible sex partner. You wouldn't be the first and won't be the last to divorce over that issue. If you wife says you are immature and selfish, agree with her. When she says you value sex more than house and cars and vacations, agree with her. when she says you are bad and wrong and evil to value sex so highly, THAT is where you disagree with her. Agree that she values it lower. Agree that you value it higher. And then say that this difference in values is precisely why you two shouldn't be married to each other. Neither of you is evil or wrong to feel the way you do. But feeling different about something so important renders you incompatible. When she complains that you place too much value on sex, agree that you value it very highly. And agree she values it lower. Disagree that you are WRONG to value it so highly. And wish her well finding someone who values it as low as she does.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Yes. Well I have tried discussing and when I do it always seems to ricochet ...and not go anywhere ..perhaps the reaction. She gives me makes me feel that me wanting to have sex is wrong or that I ONLY care about sex and that's it....which is not the case ...and all of the rejection over the past few years has definitely impacted me ...mentally..

I do need to work on myself if I can't be effective in my marriage ...

The reason a counselor or sex therapist would be beneficial at this point is to stay focused on us working together vs my wife getting me off the topic and not taking steps ...sincerely of she's not happy that is also something I care about...

Lately I work all day when I get home now we discuss work in bed and go to sleep and our romance and intimacy has been starved out of priority to the point that waiting for life to be perfect I'm everywhere has priority over enjoying the journey and each other ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

With all due respect to the couple billion women in the region - with few exceptions - this may be culture based, as in, I'm late 40's early 50's and sex is as remote as buying baby stuff. 

You can change and become a GQ model or make a zillion dollars and it won't matter. 

It's the old "what's in it for me" logic.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

John - do you feel a counselor can be effective step ?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If done voluntarily yes. If dragged, no.

Heck, I have three degrees in psychology and a lot of good that has done in my relationship...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Counselling is only effective if both people are willing to make changes. If your wife intends counselling as simply a means to placate you, with no intent on her part to change her behavior, then you will find counselling to be a frustrating and unproductive activity. However, that may not be a bad thing. Maybe that is what you need to get you to consider divorce.

Counselling helps if there is an overlap between what each partner is willing to do, but the couple's poor communication skills prevents from from realizing that the overlap exists. It can help a couple LOCATE their boundaries and determine whether they overlap. Counselling does not help CREATE an overlap that does not exist.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

GuyInColorado said:


> I refused to have sex with my wife. Didn't have sex for almost 5 years before I left her. I resented her, actually hated her. I was repulsed by her, not just because she gained weight, but because of the way she treated me. My fix was a divorce. I was having great sex again with other women weeks after separating. Life is too short to be miserable.


OP-- keep this in the back of your mind. You can always bounce and replace her, probably more easily than you think.

Now, if you're not yet ready for that, here are a couple of things to consider:

1. is she cheating? what is the deal with her trainer? who is she friendly with in her yoga classes? if you don't know, look into it

2. why do you care so much about whether you're doing enough or the right things? is the issue maybe not WHAT you're doing but your overall subservient attitude? are you like a puppy that's begging for a treat? 

if there is any HINT of 2 in your demeanor or interior conception, work on dropping that. 

Focus on the quote above-- you do not need this from her-- she can be replaced with someone who is much better for you. You are actually doing her a favor that you are even tolerating this. 

Get 100% comfortable with the idea that you will never be with her again. Be calm about it. Act from THAT place and then you will be in control of the situation, whichever way it goes.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> We had sex 3 times in the last 18 months. No oral sex for me. I have given her oral sex before sex.
> 2 of the 3 times were at 5 am in the morning in which she started them... and its always quick. Like do you want sex and its quick before daughter wakes up for 10 minutes...


you know this is totally not worth it. stop torturing yourself over it and accept that this is over. maybe you can have a new relationship but it will be very different



sunchild15 said:


> She said she would go to MC and I have called a few sex therapists however she is very judgmental about paying people...however I want our sex and passion to improve I thought someone who specializes in sex could be helpful although for her it could be another ingredient that could support that all I care about is sex... ...


prediction: she is going to protest any option you provide and hate the advice of anyone who says there is a problem.

do you really need a third party to tell you there is a problem? you already know what it is.



sunchild15 said:


> I do think there is on subconcious defense level some kind of power struggle. Its kind of like she said to me - "If" i had sex with you 2 times per week - we would not have ANY ISSUES with "Us" - so she knows that however we only have sex every few months....


it's definitely a power struggle. as others have said, stop giving her power. drop the rope.



sunchild15 said:


> The last time we had sex was like 3-4 weeks ago and its never as long based on her. For example we had a conversation that we had sex twice in a year and she was actually surprised that it was that long... like she lost track of time....Perhaps her system is tapped out on some hormonal level. She went to a naturopath however they did not do any in depth panel of blood tests .......


if it's not satisfying, don't do it. 

don't look for phantom hormonal excuses. it doesn't matter. all that matters is she doesn't want you. there is nothing behind the curtain.



sunchild15 said:


> Lately she always wants to plan event and activities with all of us and her brother for holidays however I seriously want her to come up with an idea of her and me to have a weekend together somewhere romantically . When I have planned that in past it has never worked out ... I feel a bit frustrated around this because its kind of been a long time of me settling for what I get .. I have never turned away sex..........


if you don't want to do family stuff with her, don't do it. own it. tell her I don't feel close to you at this point so I don't really feel like doing that. You can say I hope things change, but that's where I'm at now. Don't be mad, just state the facts.

Don't count on her to plan a romantic getaway. Why would she do that when she plainly has lost interest in you?



sunchild15 said:


> She used to at least give me a massage. I was thinking of asking for that like she used to do when I am turned on - however I got to the point where she would make me feel good and then she would lay down and go to sleep and it made me feel kind of weird that she just did not want to have sex with me however she would make me feel good... I started thinking - what is going on here and asked her and and she would say that she does not feel like it ..............


don't ask for this. if she wanted to, she would do it without your asking, like she used to.



sunchild15 said:


> I wish so badly that I could get the spark back, however I have stopped initiated lately and asking her because when I did she would always identify that my relationship her revolves around sex and I think her response is always a defensive mechanism.... like a distraction tactic.


maybe when you were a kid you had a game you really enjoyed. wouldn't it be nice to go back to when you were a kid and have that same sense of enjoyment from playing that game?

do you spend a lot of time thinking thoughts like this? because this is EXACTLY what you are doing pining over things you used to have with your wife.

you will never go back to what you once had. it is over. you MAY have something new (and possibly even better), but it will not be what you had. 

work on letting that go. if you can't, you will never be able to move on to the next thing.



sunchild15 said:


> What is weird is our daughter is not in home from 8 am to 4 pm and we have never had sex during the day during that time because she is always focused on work... I want her to want me - like we used to feel ...I really do want to change this or something needs to be done...


it's not weird. you could be alone for 10 yrs straight at this point and she wouldn't want it. it's not because of a lack of opportunity.



sunchild15 said:


> I may have to schedule appointment with a counselor which I am sure will stress her out like everything does but if we do not start working on some way to progress this it will be in the same place and I do not feel even after long talks that we make any traction....


if you've already talked about it and there was no change, more talking won't do anything.



sunchild15 said:


> The last discussion / conversation / argument we had months ago led to her writing me like a 5 page letter saying how she is responsible for many things and no where in her life does she get to be carefree to relax and be sexual.. In the letter she did not acknowledge all of the activities that I do daily and weekly around the house to make her life easier ..
> 
> I responded with let me think about this email : because I did not want to fall into TIT for TAT or I do this and you do this. Perhaps I should reply to the email however I always feel I listen to her amazingly and when it comes to her really hearing me - she always shuts me down by giving her judgements and redirects things back on me ...its like she is great at making me feel like its all me and she has nothing to do with any of it ..
> 
> ...


you're right that a tit for tat cycle is bad. 

the way to break that is to start making decisions that are right for YOU at all times, regardless of what you think she wants.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I'm trying to recall a time I've ever heard counseling work in a dead bedroom situation and drawing a blank.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm trying to recall a time I've ever heard counseling work in a dead bedroom situation and drawing a blank.




None that I've seen. But I've seen walking away work many times.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> It's so funny that I was thinking about when I used to be at work all day my wife's excuse at the time would be I haven't seen you all day...or talked to you...when I work with her all day it's always why are you more focused on me then work...
> 
> What's interesting to me is that when you get married and hopefully you become a team and there are responsibilities and in this day and age if a man sacrifices his time and does things for the benefit of his family even though he doesn't always want to do them...it can go unappreciated and yet ...feelings have much more to do with the wife ....
> 
> ...


And.......instead of doing what we have told you to do and take a GOOD HARD look at yourself to see what YOU can do to change things - you know, since YOU CAN'T CHANGE HER - this is what you come back with: how awful she is.

Tell me: how is that helping you get what you want?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> Yes. Well I have tried discussing and when I do it always seems to ricochet ...and not go anywhere ..perhaps the reaction. She gives me makes me feel that me wanting to have sex is wrong or that I ONLY care about sex and that's it....which is not the case ...and all of the rejection over the past few years has definitely impacted me ...mentally..
> 
> I do need to work on myself if I can't be effective in my marriage ...
> 
> ...


What have all your books told you about why she won't have sex? I presume they're smart enough to tell you that you no longer turn her on and that having sex with you DOESN'T MATTER as much to her because you have stopped being ATTRACTIVE to her. And that is on YOU. Not her. You.

Women want sex when they are emotionally invested in keeping their man happy, impressing their man, and afraid of losing their man. THAT makes you attractive. 

She knows you will accept crumbs, she knows you aren't going anywhere, she knows you're desperate, and she knows you've become a weak begging man - and nothing turns off a woman faster than a weak begging man.

And guess who changes all that: YOU.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> With all due respect to the couple billion women in the region - with few exceptions - this may be culture based, as in, I'm late 40's early 50's and sex is as remote as buying baby stuff.


Not at all. I'm sex averse, but even I get in the mood when my H meets my needs. And I just turned 58. In fact, the more he becomes the partner I thought I was marrying, the more I want to do with him because, when I look at him, I ADMIRE HIM, and that's a big turn on.

As I keep saying, MEN have the power to get women to desire them. If they'd just quit whining and take a look at themselves.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In other words, you're not averse to sex, you simply did not get your needs met and now that you do you're all for it.

Transactionalism at its best, looks like.

Is it difficult to accept that some of us are at the top of our game but are married to frigids?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, it means that if I see him doing as much for me as I do for him, I'm more willing to overcome my issues to give back to him.

And I know some woman are frigid. IME, most are so because of childhood issues and have nothing to do with the husband they have. Those women are unlikely to change.

But of all the couples I've come across in this and the other forums I've been to, the woman has simply progressed to the level of disinterest due to the circumstances of the marriage and the actions of the husband. 

john, we all get how bitter you are at your fate. But I can't even think of a single post you've made in all this time that wasn't flat out: leave, she's a *****, things will never improve. How is that helping anyone?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

And.......instead of doing what we have told you to do and take a GOOD HARD look at yourself to see what YOU can do to change things - you know, since YOU CAN'T CHANGE HER - this is what you come back with: how awful she is. Tell me: how is that helping you get what you want?



Response : it's not...me..great shape work out with trainer 8 times per month..do yoga 8 times per month..cardio 12 times per month..clean..greatly dressed ..I work on myself ..eat all organic foods and super clean..I'm a great looking guy in fact I have people talk to me all of the time and say how calm and positive I am...I do meditation and generate several hundred thousand per year. ..I look amazing for my age and even at a 30 year old age ...

I'm super supportive and a great dad...

I get complements from my wife on how in shape I am and how I have changed ..followed the MMSL...and lost 30 lbs in the last few years not that I was fat but now I'm more defined and trimmed...so what would be your suggestions ...how do I work more on me...?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What the hell does your physique have to do with whether you're a good partner? You do realize, right, that women are typically not NEARLY as concerned with looks as men are? Women care about support, listening, respect, stability, and strength.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> .so what would be your suggestions ...how do I work more on me...?


First, tell me if you've read His Needs Her Needs yet.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

turnera2 said:


> Not at all. I'm sex averse, but even I get in the mood when my H meets my needs. And I just turned 58. In fact, the more he becomes the partner I thought I was marrying, the more I want to do with him because, when I look at him, I ADMIRE HIM, and that's a big turn on.
> 
> 
> 
> As I keep saying, MEN have the power to get women to desire them. If they'd just quit whining and take a look at themselves.




OP is this what you want? A sexually averse wife who rewards you with occasional sex when you do the right combination of things, jump through the right hoops?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

One, boy did you twist my words. Two, you have no idea what goes on in my marriage so you don't know what you're talking about.

We've been married 36 years and up until about a year ago - when I was finally honest with him about how it hurt me emotionally - we were having sex at least twice a week, if not three times a week, including BJs. For 35 years. And my marriage _sucked_ and he still got it. But I counted the days between times and knew when I could relax and when I had to prepare myself for that night.

What I said was, when he DID pull through and step up and make life better for me, I was even MORE interested and excited to have a sexually fulfilling relationship.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

turnera2 said:


> What the hell does your physique have to do with whether you're a good partner? You do realize, right, that women are typically not NEARLY as concerned with looks as men are? Women care about support, listening, respect, stability, and strength.


This. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera2 said:


> No, it means that if I see him doing as much for me as I do for him, I'm more willing to overcome my issues to give back to him.
> 
> And I know some woman are frigid. IME, most are so because of childhood issues and have nothing to do with the husband they have. Those women are unlikely to change.
> 
> ...


Critical thinking goes a long way. Why is it that the top research hospitals generally have higher morbidity rates than Paducah General?

I only comment on some of the more, ehem, hardened cases which generally aren't fixable. Other posters see fit to reply to every case with the tried and often true DIY staples rarely stopping to assess the individual needs of the case.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> OP is this what you want? A sexually averse wife who rewards you with occasional sex when you do the right combination of things, jump through the right hoops?


What he said.

Time for my MinMax lecture and we are all set...


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I may be confused 

Is Turnera2= the poster formerly known as Turnera?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Women care about support, listening, respect, stability, and strength..

Response ...

I support my wife a lot...and back her up
I respect my wife and treat her great..
I am song because I handle a lot she doesn't ..
And we have stability 

So how does all of that help me ?
Or us...don't u think perhaps someone can be diconnected energetically and be out of touch with reality based on their current perception and hey...I know I can improve more and all of the rejection has influenced my behavior ...as well....

I want us to work 
Together on it and I'm not 100 percent blaming her but if there is no teamwork how do we get closer to the place we want ?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Look up "contributory negligence".


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

noun: contributory negligence

failure of an injured plaintiff to act prudently, considered to be a contributory factor in the injury suffered, and sometimes reducing the amount recovered from the defendant.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

turnera2 said:


> One, boy did you twist my words. Two, you have no idea what goes on in my marriage so you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> We've been married 36 years and up until about a year ago - when I was finally honest with him about how it hurt me emotionally - we were having sex at least twice a week, if not three times a week, including BJs. For 35 years. And my marriage _sucked_ and he still got it. But I counted the days between times and knew when I could relax and when I had to prepare myself for that night.
> 
> What I said was, when he DID pull through and step up and make life better for me, I was even MORE interested and excited to have a sexually fulfilling relationship.


TURNERA2:

Make life better for you: Would this be better for you ?

If someone put your kids to sleep every night while you spent time to yourself in the bathroom and you could relax by yourself every night?

If your husband cooked and woke up daughter and packed lunch every day for your kids and took them to school ...

If your husband took out trash and did all of the grocery shopping..

If while you went to the GYM and Yoga 4 times a week, you could leave and know its all taken care of, and when you got back your kids already had a bath and ready for bed and you could relax ?

If you husband generated money between 200-400k per year and you could get things you wanted and go shopping as you needed ?

If your husband took you to the best restaurants and date nights each weekend where he drove most of the time allowing you to relax ?

If on weekends you slept in late while kids were entertained by husband.. and you could sleep from 930Pm to 7 am in the morning ...

Your husband created new opportunities ..

You husband listened to all of your worries in the world

He took walks with you during lunch and held your hand

He sat with you on the sofa and held your hand while you watched TV..

He brought you tea while you relaxed ...Your husband rubbed your back when you looked stressed...

Your husband went to GYM at 5 am and after 9 Pm so you did not have to worry about taking care of the kids and it did not take away from the day of work ...

OH: By the way: The trainer my wife has is a WOMAN, so there is nothing going on there...to the person who asked about someone on the side....


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Explain Your definition of make life better for you?
Is there a specific amount of better, because I think if it does not register that your husband is making life better
how would you determine it - if you were unaware ...

Oh, yeah- Your husband cooked his own breakfast and dinner, or he went and picked up food from 
a restaurant so you would not have to cook. He washed his own clothes and folded them, and hired
someone to clean the house...

I know all of these are responsibilities of adults but I am trying to determine what your perceptions is.
In my intuition if your parents slept in separate beds and had no intimacy - what would be your model for a healthy relationship?

If your hormones were out of wack, perhaps you would know they are, figure it out or just think its something else ?

If you were depressed, would you know it ? would you admit it ? Would you see it correctly if your in it ?
Does a fish know they are in water ? Maybe not ?

Destabilization could work . I tried the 180 before and for some reason it did not seem to work. Perhaps Detabilizing 
is passive aggressive approach... Perhaps my focus should be getting my income to lots more, getting myself things that 
I have always wanted in life vs looking for approval from my wife. Perhaps I have pleased her too much and have not thought 
about what is best for me, putting her and my family always first before what I wanted and my needs, thinking that if you 
you give to others constantly - you wont have to think about what you want in life .. because you get treatment in how you 
treat others .. Perhaps she does not have it in her now to give back because she is exhausted in someway ?

I am just thinking out loud. I am on here sharing because I DO NOT BEG, I do not ask anymore, I am not having any more 
conversations about it .. you cant have PASSIONATE sex with your partner who is yawning every 5 minutes ...and they 
just want to sleep or watch tv...how is that any fun ? I do want to shift this because I do want to work on US. Maybe she 
is trying to figure it out - but so far she has not made many steps in this process and time does not wait ..

Is sex everything - no its not ...
But I do want it , I am incredibly healthy . I am not asking for sex 3 times per day ... hey if we had it 2 times in a week,
that would be the first 7 years or more ... It would be fun, I do not want to think of my past sexual encounters I want to 
create fun memories with my wife and adventurous times... do you need to make 100k per month in order to live like 
that ? I do not think so, it to me is a mindset ...do you need to have everything under the sun handled and a carefree
situation where you have no money or life to worry about and be the queen of the castle ? I do not think so ...

Is money required to have sex ? or be intimate ? to me , NO ! 
Can intimacy and connection - create inspiration - I think YES !


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Stop doing so much for her. You are supposed to be her partner, not a servant.

That's why you're not getting any. Do you realize how she sees you?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Sorry Doc, I think your approach is way too one sided. What if she just doesn't really care enough to get out of her comfort zone?


He's tried explaining it to her. You say my approach is one-sided, but what is the alternative? The alternative is the status quo. How is that one-sided? If him getting his sex life back is one-sided..... 


You ask a good question. As it stands, the connection is not really there in the relationship. Enough connection needs to be there, for her to "care enough." It is a tough reality.

Basically, it goes like this: He focuses directly on rebuilding the connection, and from that, the full intimacy of the relationship is restored. Consider connection the node, or hub, and sex one of the spokes. If he focuses on a spoke, the integrity of the whole structure will still be in question. In real relationships, you will just always see the female counterpart left feeling as if they are a sexual device. We can rationalize it anyway we want to, but we must consider how women will perceive things, especially when it is the majority of women's responses.

As it stands, his approach has very little chance of working. If he takes my advice, and I haven't explained every externality, he places the relationship in a strong, but curious position. Either she will eventually come to the table on her own, or he will be left to accept (or not) that she is unwilling to come back.

My advice isn't for him to give up, it is for him to focus entirely on the connection. There will absolutely be some rejection that persists for some time, and this is part of the transformation. When she rejects him, and he reacts well, she will no longer perceive him as "only caring about sex." That said, she will always reject sex, to some degree. Partners might have 1 intimate moment per day, as they head to bed. From those (total of 7), she might escalate 1-3 of them, for instance.

It seems one-sided, until you become very aware of every intricacy. It actually places a heavy responsibility on both partners. Along with his acceptance and understanding, necessarily, comes emotional durability. That is something that is very hard to explain, in few words. It is something that a person will not always appreciate, but is something the relationship needs.

She will be left with a lot of positive pressure to change.

Thanks


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Relationship Teacher, you have MUCH to learn about dealing with such people. 

The odds of a positive encounter with such people is measured in PPM or parts per million. You can try initiating every day for a year and you still won't improve the odds.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

ok, lets see. I have not been around because of work for the last 3 days. What is interesting is I am the one who gets up and works all day and when I come home its as if my wife is the one who has been working as she yawns and is tired. Perhaps the bigger question is how long, how many days go by in life where its ok - not to connect on an intimate level and lately I do not want to initiate because of the brow beating of - you just care about sex,
or your whole relationship with me is all about sex...which is all extreme reactions.

My wife is always saying to me its like I am multiple personalities. That I act different when we go out 
to dinner, then when we watch tv and with her family and when I get in the bedroom alone with her it 
is another different way and I want connection. I look at her perception as odd, obviously when her 
brother or my daughter is around I am not going to kiss her and initiate with her .. AT work she constantly 
talks to me about work, making money and gives me a list of more things to do. When we lay in bed after 
my long day at work like 12 hours, she wants to talk for hours about work and my day until she is tired and
goes to sleep.

It would be great to connect on all hubs.. Perhaps I feel that our communication and relationship is 
great on all levels except sex... We are fine talking and sharing about life, views, opinions, work
and all the things we need to do for work, making money and all of the responsibilities and health 
and fitness, yet when I bring up anything around sex, there is a disconnect or some defense mechanism
that kicks in..its almost like if she gives in to me - she loses her control on me perhaps ( subconciously) 

I had an idea to be around other healthy couples, do a couples date night because she doesnt really 
have any friends and she never talks to anyone she knows about our relationship except perhaps the 
trainer she has when I am not around ... but we do not hang out with other couples who have kids and 
families and that was one of my ideas to mingle with other parents who have a healthy love life and 
build friendships with people perhaps that could act as a model .. and hey she said she would go to 
a counselor after our last discussion 3 months ago for me if that would help. Perhaps I schedule it 
and put the focus on me growing, me working us, based on her comments of me being different personalities..
if I just say I really have to work on this for me - instead of focused on us having issues, just 
focus it on myself and what I need to do ... and how I can grow and through that process naturally 
all of the other things are going to be asked and come out, just focus on how I feel and not blame 
her for how I feel in this... 

Could she be depressed, perhaps 
Could she have health issues perhaps 

however I need to figure out me. Some of the times we have had discussions in the past she mentioned
if I want sex, perhaps I should find someone to have sex with or its important to me etc etc, excuse, reason ..
I do not think she meant that when it was my birthday, or some of the other crazy reactions she has put out 
there in the past - I do think if your tired, not feeling well, that you could say things you do not mean...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You did an excellent job describing my wife. She's from the Central Asian nation of Frigidistan, a curious hybrid of theocracy and former Commies 😂😂

Nearly everything you described is her.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@sunchild15: sorry, but you are going about this all wrong. You keep insisting that the more you do for her, the more she OUGHT to want to have sex with you to repay you for all your efforts. Bzzz. Sorry. Does not work that way for your wife. Some wives would be happy to have a transactional relationship where you do things for them and they reward you with sexual favors. Your wife is not one of those women. Most likely, that kind of transaction makes your wife feel like she is a prostitute. Your suggesting she engage in that "transaction" makes her feel dirty and gross and that you are a disgusting perv. Once she starts to view you that way, you are caught in a vicious cycle. The more you do for her, the more she feels pressured to be a prostitute, and the harder she will resist your efforts. So your efforts to "earn" sex are completely counter-productive. The more you do, the less chance you will have sex.

You need to take sex off the table entirely. You need to stop having sex. And stop doing things for her as a way of trying to guilt her into having sex with you. Only do those things that you feel like doing for her because they make YOU happy. Don't do anything if you feel yourself motivated to try to get her into a good mood. Her mood is her responsibility, not yours. You work on you.

Eventually either she will come to you and suggest going back to having sex (in my view, unlikely in this case), and then you can discuss the circumstances that would make sex more attractive for both of you. Or she doesn't, and you eventually realize your life would be better off without her in it as your wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> Women care about support, listening, respect, stability, and strength..
> 
> Response ...
> 
> ...


Look I am NOT telling you that it's your fault she stopped wanting sex. It's a female thing and it happens in MOST marriages because females don't 'need' sex like men do (for procreational purposes, going back to caveman days).

Women typically subconsciously want sex when they are in their mating season and once that's taken care of, it just isn't that important to most women. They don't have the same physiological biological urge to get an orgasm. It's just the way it is. Of course some women are different but this is what most men end up with.

So, what to do when you get that woman? YOU are the one who wants it, so it's up to YOU to change the scenario so that she wants it again. If YOU want more, that is. Women usually just don't understand how strong the urge is for men to have sex. It doesn't matter to her. And the more you push for it, the more she resents you and sees you as just a dirty horndog who just wants her around so you can screw her. 

So it has to start mattering to her. That's where you come in. You say you're providing all the 'stuff' I described above, but it's HOW you provide it that matters. 

You still didn't answer me - HAVE you read His Needs Her Needs yet?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If her need is no sex the book won't do a whole lot of good.

You seem to have a difficult time understanding that some women can't wait to hit late 40's to 50 so that they can turn in their sexuality card and be done with it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> TURNERA2:
> 
> Make life better for you: Would this be better for you ?
> 
> ...


Now here is where you need to discuss the book No More Mr Nice Guy, which you say you've read. What did you get out of that book?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> Relationship Teacher, you have MUCH to learn about dealing with such people.
> 
> The odds of a positive encounter with such people is measured in PPM or parts per million. *You can try initiating every day* for a year and you still won't improve the odds.


Which only shows that the man has NO CLUE what the woman wants. If a man hit on me every single day I'd move out after about a month. Because that makes him needy AND clueless.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> If her need is no sex the book won't do a whole lot of good.
> 
> You seem to have a difficult time understanding that some women can't wait to hit late 40's to 50 so that they can turn in their sexuality card and be done with it.


You seem to have a difficult time that women actually have a brain and can change their mind if there's a sufficient reason.

Hold's wife has a legitimate reason to withhold (childhood issues), but OP's wife, so he says, does not. So there IS a chance he can have what he wants if we would just stop defending himself, read the damn books, and listen to people who are willing to give him a pathway to change.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm just talking theory. Three times in 18 months is pretty much all you need to know about practice. 

Try every other day, once a week, he!!, Once a month and you're still many standard deviations away. So, don't worry about exact numbers.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Well I guess the No More Mr Nice Guy is not doing things in order to get something.
Being honest with how you feel...and doing what makes you feel good. I guess I would 
have to re-read that now... I am not sure if that will help.. I have been on with coaches 
and authors and was told that perhaps my wife should have an endocrine test as if I 
was Brad Pitt she would not be interest in it - that its more than likely her endocrine system

But I do have extra time can read that again, and his needs her needs. Just bought 2 days 
ago so I will start reading that one. Somehow i feel that me doing all of the work without 
involving her does not make much difference in the "WE" connection but I am OPEN !


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> And.......instead of doing what we have told you to do and take a GOOD HARD look at yourself to see what YOU can do to change things - you know, since YOU CAN'T CHANGE HER - this is what you come back with: how awful she is. Tell me: how is that helping you get what you want?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


everything above is good.

stop being subservient to your wife and looking out for yourself is the next step


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

turnera2 said:


> As I keep saying, MEN have the power to get women to desire them. If they'd just quit whining and take a look at themselves.


this is true in a macro sense, but you can't control whether any individual woman will want you

you need to be self aware and honest as to whether you are really attractive to women.

if you are, then you also need to let yourself off the hook if any particular woman doesn't want you

you can't catch every fish


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Women care about support, listening, respect, stability, and strength..
> 
> Response ...
> 
> ...


I'm repeating myself, but you respect her so much you don't respect yourself.

that is a massive turnoff


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> TURNERA2:
> 
> Make life better for you: Would this be better for you ?
> 
> ...


how does she make your life better, man?

or is all of the giving in one direction?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> He's tried explaining it to her. You say my approach is one-sided, but what is the alternative? The alternative is the status quo. How is that one-sided? If him getting his sex life back is one-sided.....
> 
> 
> You ask a good question. As it stands, the connection is not really there in the relationship. Enough connection needs to be there, for her to "care enough." It is a tough reality.
> ...


TLDR version: double down on "nice guy"


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Well I guess the No More Mr Nice Guy is not doing things in order to get something.
> Being honest with how you feel...and doing what makes you feel good. I guess I would
> have to re-read that now... I am not sure if that will help.. I have been on with coaches
> and authors and was told that perhaps my wife should have an endocrine test as if I
> ...


dude, you are a classic "nice guy"

you're deluding yourself if you think your wife wouldn't be into Brad Pitt. 

this is not a plumbing issue. it's an attraction issue.

the problem is though that your "nice guy" identity is likely permanently burned into her brain at this point.

you could do a complete 180 and she will probably still think it's an act and still not be attracted to you.

that's life, man. good luck, but if you really want to change your situation, at some point you will probably need to accept that you will need to move on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> But I do have extra time can read that again, and his needs her needs. Just bought 2 days
> ago so I will start reading that one. Somehow i feel that me doing all of the work without
> involving her does not make much difference in the "WE" connection but I am OPEN !


Reading HNHN is to understand how men and women think, feel, and react. You have to KNOW your wife and what's going on with her, to be able to react to her to get what YOU want. What you've been doing is doing what YOU think matters to her in hopes it will get a reaction; HNHN - and its questionnaires - will help you LEARN about your wife so you can specifically address the ONE woman in front of you.

NMMNG is about understanding how YOU think and why what you've been doing isn't working.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

turnera2 said:


> You seem to have a difficult time that women actually have a brain and can change their mind if there's a sufficient reason.
> 
> Hold's wife has a legitimate reason to withhold (childhood issues), but OP's wife, so he says, does not. So there IS a chance he can have what he wants if we would just stop defending himself, read the damn books, and listen to people who are willing to give him a pathway to change.


Agreed 100%. I am married to one of those women for whom sex became obsolete following our second child. She literally has zero sex drive. None. Nada. Zip! At one point (back before I understood anything about sexless marriages) I decided to stop initiating sex, to wait for *her* to get horny and approach *me*. Sort of like challenging a camel to a contest of "who can go the longest without a drink of water". I eventually caved after 9 sexless months.

Skipping forward a bit in my story... I gave my wife a sufficient reason to change her mind about sex: marriage. Ours. Did she want to stay married to me? Her answer was Yes, and we've been having regular sex 2x per week for the past 8 years. Oh there was also some marriage counseling mixed in there, but the operative reason for saving our marriage was NOT the counseling. It was exactly as turnera2 said: my wife needed a compelling reason to change her mind about sex. Fortunately, I was the one to give her that reason.

You can call this an ultimatum. You can say I destabilized the relationship. But I say simply I got honest with myself and with her, and finally admitted the truth: I cannot stay married and faithful to a wife who refuses sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sigh.

The pop psych books are written with enough generalities as to make them useless for specific cases. 

He already knows she's financially insecure, likely has cultural issues, likely depression, age, and so on. 

DIY books may help the 3x a week vs 5x a week debate couples to settle on 4x a week (duh) but cases like OPs are strictly pro grade, assuming they can be helped at all.

The average sexually satisfied couple has no clue what it means 3x in 18 months. None. Nada. Even the 1x a month barely sexual couples can't necessarily understand it. 

You can read the books and do the questions - she won't - and you'll be here in a month in the same square you were before...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

In most relationships one person is the "sure thing". The "chaser". The other person is the "chasee". The chaser chases and the chasee is the gate keeper. You think Brad Pitt chases? You think he vacumes the house hoping that the chasee allows herself to be caught? You really need to stop chasing, stop being a sure thing. Maybe go away for the weekend to do something YOU want to do....without her. Why include someone who isn't into you in your adventures? Pull back enough and eventually she'll either start chasing to avoid losing what she's got, or she'll decide that what she's got isn't worth having. Either way you get to change your situation.

And honestly, if you're so "in luuuuuuv" that you can't help yourself from being a sure thing no matter how she treats you, then you should concentrate on accepting her as is. Nobody like listening to a grown man whine, who refuses to do what it takes.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Yes. Reading all these replies and suggestions definitely gets me thinking of what the right solution is.
Yes, stop doing all that I am doing, Read NMMNG and HNHN again, set appointment with a counselor
and go hide in the closet when I feel sexual ... its a bit frustrating after time and time again to feel like
nothing I do for me to progress on this in my marriage is effective and it can definitely take the wind 
out of your sail.. I can seem to accomplish everything on great levels in all other sides of life and yet 
I cant seem to get even a sunbeam of light on this issue that I seem to care about so much. Is does 
get me down...It definitely does not make me feel good when thinking about all of this..


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Yes. Reading all these replies and suggestions definitely gets me thinking of what the right solution is.
> Yes, stop doing all that I am doing, Read NMMNG and HNHN again, set appointment with a counselor
> and go hide in the closet when I feel sexual ... its a bit frustrating after time and time again to feel like
> nothing I do for me to progress on this in my marriage is effective and it can definitely take the wind
> ...


I know what you mean, but it does not have to be a downer.

You can gain a big sense of relief from letting yourself off the hook to make it work or make her want you.

You simply cannot control everything.

How much of what you do is aimed at getting her to want you? Really think about it.

What if you cut all of that out? How much additional energy would you have to do things that YOU want to do, that make YOU happy regardless of how she is?

This is the upside to bailing on the "nice guy" sh-t.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> He's tried explaining it to her. You say my approach is one-sided, but what is the alternative? The alternative is the status quo. How is that one-sided? If him getting his sex life back is one-sided.....
> 
> 
> You ask a good question. As it stands, the connection is not really there in the relationship. Enough connection needs to be there, for her to "care enough." It is a tough reality.
> ...


I am well away how emotional intimacy connected to sexuality in woman. It usually goes emotional leads to physical. So this is good advice for him as far as the actions he should take, but he should also let her know what she is facing in sharp terms. She needs to begin to take actions too. See my quotes above. 

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not most men would say sex is the way they build and feel emotional intimacy with their partners. Because of this I think your plan is unfair and one sided. You are asking him to be emotionally vulnerable without any work on her end. That is not the way a healthy marriage works. It also give the impression that sexual intimacy is all about him working for it. Again this is not how a healthy sex life work. 

Maybe I am wrong, but looking at the premise of your advice is I suspect, you would never say to a wife who doesn't feel emotionally close to her spouse, "well you should have sex with him more because this is how he feels close to you so that is how he will open up. (nor would I advocate that)" Yet this is what you say to this man in reverse. You expect him to be the only one to be vulnerable. It is one sided and therefor not a great approach, it is only going to lead to resentment. How do we know he has not did these things anyway. 

Hence why I say marriage is a two way street. They both need to try to build intimacy, for her it is him connecting emotionally, for him it is her connecting physically. If they both don't acknowledge this you are not going to solve the problem.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Turnera, being "nice" is not expensive from the standpoint of the nice guy. In corporate America few people drop what they have to help a co-worker. It's a team effort. My team always does it. We are not "nice" as much as we know there's a goal bigger than individual success, it's getting there.

So, in reality, being nice is simply the least resistance path. Adding resistance or destabilizing is counterproductive in the long term because lack of stability becomes the new norm, hence stability.

Having said that, there's a difference between getting the work done and treating the other spouse as a princess... 

This is a difficult weekend for me because I have lots of home stuff to do. But we also have intern game night, and those can eat most of a Saturday. So I'm not nice if I cut the game night to 2-3 hours and catch up with the rest of housework... it's practical and rational.

Sure, Brad Pitt doesn't have to wash dishes but he's not a member of the proletariat like we are...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@sunchild15: You CAN get what you want on this issue. You just might not be able to get it with your current partner. Yes, that can lead to bad feelings. You might have to choose between a great sex life and being married to the mother of your children. That is an ugly choice. Sometimes life is ugly.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Somehow i feel that me doing all of the work without
> involving her does not make much difference in the "WE" connection but I am OPEN !


This is why I told you to give her the come to Jesus speech. Seems you are too passive to do it. Without consequences she is not going to work, maybe she doesn't even understand how dire the situation is in your mind. It is very unfair for you to blindside her with leaving and asking for divorce without giving her a chance to know that you are nearing your end first.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Yes. Reading all these replies and suggestions definitely gets me thinking of what the right solution is.
> Yes, stop doing all that I am doing, Read NMMNG and HNHN again, set appointment with a counselor
> and go hide in the closet when I feel sexual ... its a bit frustrating after time and time again to feel like
> nothing I do for me to progress on this in my marriage is effective and it can definitely take the wind
> ...


You need to work on your reading comprehension. I and others have told you over and over to be proactive. All you do is whine, no wonder your wife doesn't want to have sex with you. Seriously man get a grip.

Tell her this - 
"Right now I don't feel loved by you. That needs to change. If there is something you need from me to help you get in the mood tell me and we can work on that. But I mean work on that. Right now I don't feel loved without sex, as my wife you need to understand this. Now that you do if we don't work on this then you are telling me where I stand as far as your priorities. If my feeling love is not my wife's priority how do you expect me to stay married to you. I am with you to feel loved. Not for cars, and houses, and careers, I can get them on my own. If you resent me for something be honest and tell me. If you are not attracted to me be honest and tell me, but work on it with me like the team we are supposed to be." 

Then create conditions in your life where having sex will be easy, like having someone watch the kids. And spend the next month courting her, like you did when you first met her. 

Quit whining about not having sex, give her the path to walk with you but start walking it's up to her to stay on that path.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What happens if she does not give a rat's behind about being courted?

As for the priorities speech, don't sign up for Toastmasters quite yet. She knows what is going on. You might as well deliver the speech to your cat.

Offer three choices - heavy duty marriage counseling, amicable divorce (cooperative divorce in some states) or fight to the end divorce.

Save the violins for the opera.

(Incidentally that's my speech above... I expect she will first scream for #3 but once she finds out the outcome is the same as #2 and the cost a lot more than #2 she may go for #2 instead. YMMV.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john, seriously, what is you goal? I've never seen you post a single thing other than 'get out! she's worthless!'

Is it your goal to ensure that all men leave all women so you'll have someone to commiserate with? I really don't get it. 

You never post any kind of advice (except 'leave!'), you go on every single thread where a man's not getting enough sex and pile it on so the man feels even worse and even more hopeless...what's your goal?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera2 said:


> john, seriously, what is you goal? I've never seen you post a single thing other than 'get out! she's worthless!'
> 
> Is it your goal to ensure that all men leave all women so you'll have someone to commiserate with? I really don't get it.
> 
> You never post any kind of advice (except 'leave!'), you go on every single thread where a man's not getting enough sex and pile it on so the man feels even worse and even more hopeless...what's your goal?


Lolz.

You missed my research hospitals morbidity rates comment. 

Did you ever realize I don't respond to every case, only the cases that have similar background - AND HIGHLY LIKELY SIMILAR EXPECTED OUTCOME - to mine?

Is that not how self help groups operate?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I am well away how emotional intimacy connected to sexuality in woman. It usually goes emotional leads to physical. So this is good advice for him as far as the actions he should take, but he should also let her know what she is facing in sharp terms. She needs to begin to take actions too. See my quotes above.


It'd be nice, but if the disconnection is severe, she will take those "sharp terms" in a negative manner.



> Whether you want to acknowledge it or not most men would say sex is the way they build and feel emotional intimacy with their partners.


 True.



> Because of this I think your plan is unfair and one sided.


It is understandable for you to feel that way. I need 3 months of your time to show you that that is not the case.

However, I will adamantly say that I challenge the concept of "fairness" unapologetically.



> You are asking him to be emotionally vulnerable without any work on her end. That is not the way a healthy marriage works. It also give the impression that sexual intimacy is all about him working for it. Again this is not how a healthy sex life work.


A mischaracterization, but an understandable one.

The short answer is that this is no longer a healthy marriage, and you are trying to employ relationship advice in the wrong context. It isn't that you are wrong. It's that your advice (in this context) will fail more than 90% of the time.



> Maybe I am wrong, but looking at the premise of your advice is I suspect, you would never say to a wife who doesn't feel emotionally close to her spouse, "well you should have sex with him more because this is how he feels close to you so that is how he will open up. (nor would I advocate that)" Yet this is what you say to this man in reverse. You expect him to be the only one to be vulnerable. It is one sided and therefor not a great approach, it is only going to lead to resentment.


I advise the awake spouse. The one that is awake enough to take advice, that is. My advice is basically the same for both sexes, as it includes some understanding of each. 

I definitely would not characterize my advice as making him vulnerable. In fact, my number one focus is on helping individuals become emotionally durable. My advice cannot succeed, at all, unless individuals are durable.



> How do we know he has not did these things anyway.


I can tell by the opening post. As I just indicated above, individuals that feel victimized take very predictable courses of action. The ones I am advising can't come from a victim.





> Hence why I say marriage is a two way street. They both need to try to build intimacy, for her it is him connecting emotionally, for him it is her connecting physically. If they both don't acknowledge this you are not going to solve the problem.


It is not that I think you are wrong, philosophically. I have found that this mindset will fail when the connection is weak, or with certain character qualities, from either spouse.

Relationships are more fragile than is commonly thought.

Thanks


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

john117 said:


> You missed my research hospitals morbidity rates comment.
> 
> Did you ever realize I don't respond to every case, only the cases that have similar background - AND HIGHLY LIKELY SIMILAR EXPECTED OUTCOME - to mine?
> 
> Is that not how self help groups operate?


Ok, I'll bite, the comment was



john117 said:


> Critical thinking goes a long way. Why is it that the top research hospitals generally have higher morbidity rates than Paducah General?
> 
> I only comment on some of the more, ehem, hardened cases which generally aren't fixable. Other posters see fit to reply to every case with the tried and often true DIY staples rarely stopping to assess the individual needs of the case.


And I wasn't certain what was meant then. Possible options include

- research hospitals attract the worst cases, or get them referred on from Paducah General. So TAM sees the worst marriages, but what relevance is that to this thread? Or this is a particularly bad case? 
- you see yourself, with 3 degrees and your marriage history, as more suited to commenting on the worst marriages. And sadly those have the least chance of improving, or don't respond to simple medicine/advice.
- my normal usage of 'morbidity rates', is like 'death rates', which makes the comment seem reversed. One would hope research hospitals with the best doctors have lower morbidity rates.

And this gets to the reason I'll bite here, I worked with someone who helped set government policy on hospital sizes. He explained some of the anomalies found, such as, larger hospitals, eg research hospitals, have better overall results, but often higher death rates. Partly they get the patients with worst conditions, often from Paducah General. The evil rumor was that sometimes medical researches concentrate too much on their next paper. But I don't see how this applies to this thread.

- Also the dictionary gives another definition of 'morbidity rates', to do with the severity of the disease. Research hospitals get the sickest patients. Which gets us back to the first option.

I certainly think this is an extreme case, sex 3 times in 18 months is extreme. So normal advice might not apply.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Perfect! My non medically astute analogy holds 

By the time most MEN come to TAM its Mayo Clinic time. By the TIME most WOMEN come to TAM its time for an office visit😂


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> dude, you are a classic "nice guy"
> 
> you're deluding yourself if you think your wife wouldn't be into Brad Pitt.


I think you can find someone attractive without being attract*ED* to them.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

tommyr said:


> Agreed 100%. I am married to one of those women for whom sex became obsolete following our second child. She literally has zero sex drive. None. Nada. Zip! At one point (back before I understood anything about sexless marriages) I decided to stop initiating sex, to wait for *her* to get horny and approach *me*. Sort of like challenging a camel to a contest of "who can go the longest without a drink of water". I eventually caved after 9 sexless months.
> 
> Skipping forward a bit in my story... I gave my wife a sufficient reason to change her mind about sex: marriage. Ours. Did she want to stay married to me? Her answer was Yes, and we've been having regular sex 2x per week for the past 8 years. Oh there was also some marriage counseling mixed in there, but the operative reason for saving our marriage was NOT the counseling. It was exactly as turnera2 said: my wife needed a compelling reason to change her mind about sex. Fortunately, I was the one to give her that reason.
> 
> You can call this an ultimatum. You can say I destabilized the relationship. But I say simply I got honest with myself and with her, and finally admitted the truth: I cannot stay married and faithful to a wife who refuses sex.



^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the right approach, if you have cleaned up your side of the street. I'm a little surprised no one has pitched MMSL yet, but this is kind of the basic approach. It WILL get you a better sex life, and perhaps it will be with your wife. (I'm not a fan of everything in it, but I think this approach works for men and women). 

First, work on your weak areas. This requires some self-reflection and listening. If you have caused some underlying hurts and resentments, own it, apologize once sincerely. Forgive her for anything you've held against her. Weed out unattractive attitudes and behaviors, especially passive-aggressiveness. No offense, but I sense some PA in you; it's common with the less invested partner. 

When you've made a real change (hint: it takes months of consistency, not days or weeks), there are two possibilities: she notices, and wants more of you,or she doesn't change anything (she's "happy" with the way things are, or at least comfortable). If she doesn't change, that's when you can give an ultimatum. Then, it's her choice - change and stay married, or single momhood. 

The lower-interest partner will always make excuses: tired, stressed, you need to do more housework. The honest answer may be too risky to acknowledge: don't find you attractive, seething resentment, etc, so you get hoops to jump through, with nothing but frustration, because you aren't fixing the problem. 

Also, take some effort to try to understand what makes you attractive and unattractive in a woman's eyes. Physique is way more important to men than women. If you are in the same shape as when she fell in love with you, that isn't a weak area. 

It also looks like you ar doing more than your share hoping to get sex. If you read NMMNG, you'll learn that's a "covert contract". It's also unattractive, establishing her as the more desirable partner. 

Try this, also from MMSL: practice "outcome indifference". Initiate sex, and if she turns you down, don't get upset or angry. Don't talk about it. Just cheerfully go do something for yourself, preferably something manly, not more housework. 

Good place to start with self-awareness: what are you like compared to the man she fell in love with?


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

One thing I read that kind of pisses me off. @turnera2 shared some intimate details, only to have several posters poo-poo her M. I suspect that most healthy men in sexless marriages would be grateful to have a W who, although not in he mood, is willing to start and GET in the mood. That's how responsive desire works in women. 

And when she told her H some barriers she had with emotional intimacy, her H stepped up, and she's giving more happily what she didn't withhold before. That's probably a best-case scenario for those in a sexless marriage. Or, many non-sexless marriages. That "I'm insanely hot for you" feeling happen intermittently in a long term relationship, the rest of the time, it's more routine. 

</tj>


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

ok, I am reading HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS. It is interesting since I did pay a intimacy coach for 3 months time 
to coach me on getting closer to my wife who was a woman. We discussed non sexual touch and a bunch of 
these things.

I do practice affection without any desire for being sexual. Perhaps I should take on the game of not wanting 
sex for 6 months since time goes by anyways and focus more on affection and conversation. Perhaps its the 
conversation part that kind of baffles me a bit .. It suggests 15 hours per week to your partner. I feel that we 
talk right now about 15-20 hours per week about WORK, responsibilities things we can do with family. When the 
work, work , work part comes up it can get really draining for me because I feel all of those conversations lead
to what I did not do, her expecting to be rich and perhaps more things I need to do - hoops I need to jump through.
I wish we had more fun conversations and I have even asked my wife where she wants to go and what inspires 
her and what turns her on ... The last few times I have asked her to think or share she has said I do not really 
know .. I have never thought about it , and then she shifts it back on me, I was trying to get her to open up.

With the Non-sexual touch I worked on for months the 3 months ( 13 sessions- 1 per week ) led to the finale from
the coach basically saying that I need to have a serious conversation with my wife and perhaps an ultimatum 
talk with her ... The coach explained that at this point - your wife needs to be part of this conversation and 
you need to have a conversation around her commitment and perhaps something on boundaries. We discussed
designing a menu of things for her to choose from like a restaurant menu where she would pick 2 things out 
of your list of 10.

As far as the affection, I hold hand, tell her I love her, tell her I care about her. I ask her how she is feeling? How was
Yoga, How was the workout and gym, if she is hurting and needs a heat pack on her back if she wants a back rub.
My wife has said that I know that we care about each other very much. Last time after she screamed at our daughter
because she will have these outbursts of painful screaming where she loses herself.. I told her that I would take care
of daughter if she wants to go get some air. Then I suggested after she kept waking up complaining about things I 
did that perhaps its best if I find my own place and we have some space for a while. That I could not take her 
jumping on me every morning when she gets out of bed ( she is last one out of bed in family) and that her screaming 
does not work for me. That it is getting old and wearing on me and that in stead of yelling at our 6 year old daughter
she can communicate differently.

She got really upset then said she would get her own place, then said I was kicking her out when my suggestion 
was me getting my own place. After she packed her few things and left the house stating to our daughter that she 
would be back tomorrow and our daughter crying, she came back a few hours later and said to me that she wants 
to work on our relationship and that she did not want our daughter to feel abandoned. We then had a chat for 
a few hours and she spent time writing me a 6 page letter stating that no where in her life can she be carefree listing 
all that she does - like a list of 30 things and recognizing what I do as a few things missing 90% of what I do.

I responded to her email saying: Thank you for communicating this, I want to think about what you shared with me
because felt responding and stating what I truly do would be a reactive ( tit for tat ) email. Anyways at this point 
which was April 1st to be exact I never responded to her email ( Perhaps I should share it on here for feedback from group) 
I guess that may not be good if I shared her email ...she also stated in that letter that what her to me when we met 
was refreshing, now that same quality she needs me to change.

Non-Sexual Touch:

- Holding her hand and walking with her - no sexual initiation . incinuation 
- Sitting on sofa almost 5 nights per week resting my hand on her knee/ or holding her hand/ No sexual advances 
- Kisses goodbye, Kisses Goodnight ( I always initiate that ) because otherwise she just lays on her side of the bed.
- Lighting Candles for Bed/ Not really initiating sex - laying and relaxing 
- Talking about 3 hours per day about work / Life / Daughter / Ideas/ Life 
- Sharing about ideas that I have 
- Giving Her Hugs before I leave, when she leaves
- Group Hugs as a family 
- Hug and Kiss when I see her ...

Now at night, her question will be do you want to watch episodes or tv or movie mon through sun, she never suggests 
laying down, being romantic, its always usually a movie/tv from 8:30 pm to 11 Pm to Bed to sleep. She is on sofa and 
in bathroom from time I start reading to my daughter and put her to sleep while my wife relaxes..

Every week we visit her family 2 times per week. One time on Friday and also on Sunday. So she schedules 2 times
a week in for them / us to all connect .. I guess lately I am asking how family gets a routine schedule and "US" we 
do not have time - but in actuality I spend every night with my wife and have spent 8 am - 4 Pm alone with her 
Monday through Friday where we work together and I just changed that this past week where I go out to work 
and see her at dinner time now. 

So I felt like I was doing "His Needs Her Needs" Do I ask her to read the book or order it for her. Would that not 
be implying to her that she should look at the book because I think it is a good reference on how a man and woman 
are different ...

As I read His Needs Her Needs, I did hear that are exceptions to the cases in there and also role reversals. I noticed
that when I have sex with my wife after she is done she seems to not want me to be affectionate and touch her . She 
seems to want to be left alone.. She never wants to have sex again or continue being romantic but that could have 
something to do with depression / energy or perhaps if it happens after 9 Pm she tends to want to just go to sleep 
right away..

I have also noticed that with foreplay, she will let me kiss her breasts/nipples, give her oral, kiss her whole body
which I enjoy, sometimes I breathe hard since its been a while and I am excited, she will ask if there is something 
wrong ? why am I breathing so hard, Also i give wet kisses and she will wipe her mouth and make a disgusted look.
She will let me go down on her and make her feel good and then she just really wants me, its always just missionary
position that she wants me... its always the same, she is never on top of me, she never starts by giving me oral, 
does not give me oral on its own, and she tends to have me do all of the work - I almost feel as if she is watching 
what I am doing and I am the driver.. it would be nice if I got more of a sense of her desire for me .. I mean I 
guess I can say that she grabs my penis if she wants me in her while this is happening - but I do wish it was
a longer session then 10 minutes...Perhaps I should try and hold her off and tease her more.. and really take 
my time with her and not give her what she wants ...LOL

I guess what I am saying is it would be nice to have different love making sessions that are longer 
and also more reciprocal ..When we have sex, because I have waited months, it feels go good that 
I really would love to have sex a second time, I have asked or tried without asking and it seems at 
that point she wants to be left alone or comment: cant you be happy with what you just got or enjoy what you have?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I ADMIRE TURNERA2... I wish I could even have a productive conversation as TUNERA2 has done. Its actually great that I wife listens to 
her husbands needs and they can have a talk about it. Every time I in the past I have brought up my needs - I end up feeling guilty 
that I have to bring it up, or that i shared what my true feelings were because after I am done, it feels as if I put my finger in a live socket..
and I am still stuck ..LOL


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, put the sex on the back burner. Your marriage is on the rocks and you need to fix that first AND you need to get her to see you want her for more than just sex.

Second, the book isn't just about seeing what you're doing, what she's doing. Once you finish the book, there will be questionnaires to be filled out. THAT is the benefit of the book - both of you learning more about each other through the questionnaires. As you read the book, share with her the key tenets that you get out of it. Let her see you learning, over the next week or two, what a good marriage should look like. Not as in, what she's doing wrong. But as in what a healthy marriage would look like. 

When you finish the book, explain what you learned, tell her that y'all's marriage is ready for a kickstart, here's the questionnaires, let's sit down together and fill them out.

Now, when the book says 15 hours, it means 15 hours of one on one connection time, i.e. dating. Dating is what made her hot for you in the first place, dating is what will make her hot for you, again. Now, I don't mean going out all the time. I mean a picnic on the living room floor when the kids are gone, doing a crossword puzzle together, sitting on the patio and drinking coffee, going on a day trip to a nearby town, trying a new restaurant, going dancing, reading to each other, setting up a jigsaw puzzle in the living room and working on it together...could be a million little ways to reconnect so she starts seeing you as a suitor again. THAT is what gets a woman into a man again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> I ADMIRE TURNERA2... I wish I could even have a productive conversation as TUNERA2 has done. Its actually great that I wife listens to
> her husbands needs and they can have a talk about it. Every time I in the past I have brought up my needs - I end up feeling guilty
> that I have to bring it up, or that i shared what my true feelings were because after I am done, it feels as if I put my finger in a live socket..
> and I am still stuck ..LOL


Read NMMNG again, and then re-read this post of yours. Do you SEE the Nice Guy talking?

A Former Nice Guy is willing to leave a relationship if the partner becomes so selfish that they refuse to care about you. He doesn't feel guilty for saying why he's unhappy. Of course he doesn't just blame the partner, either. He asks them to tell him what HE needs to change as well and then DOES change those things, within reason. 

Your post was completely Nice Guy and needy and unattractive.

Are you in IC? You need to be learning to value yourself and love yourself so that when you DO talk to her, you're doing it from a position of strength, of knowing your value and that she's lucky to have you. She needs to see that in you. Not a whiny, guilty boy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> How would I give my wife a map ? It seems like she wants to avoid this.. If she cast blame on me and makes most of this my responsibility then how do I get her involved in this ? It seems like she would rather spend time on other things. Frankly I am feeling a bit unappreciated, undesired and unwanted and its really having an impact on me and lately I feel this needs some urgency before we lose more years.
> 
> Is it bad of me to want to have a passionate relationship with my wife ?
> 
> ...


No, it's not the man's job to always lead the way. But right now you are the one who is unhappy. And you are the one who is here on TAM looking for a way to change your marriage. You are the only person we can talk to. So we are going to suggest things that YOU can do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> Today I started thinking a lot about this and me being the responsible one for much of the household income..I started thinking about how perhaps I should spend most of my time working on things that
> make money.. Lately I do not feel that me being around helps attraction and I feel less appreciated and desired makes me want to be busy just working. Perhaps I am taking this to the extreme but perhaps I need to just buckle down however part of me feels kind of frustrated... Perhaps if I work all of the time and make money that would be better instead of hanging around in this situation where my wife is not valuing spending time with me like she used to ...


How many hours a day do you work in your company?

How many hours a day does you wife work in the company?

Is it viewed as your company and she's just 'helping' you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm surprised that none of the usual bunch offering worthwhile advice in this situation has shown up yet
> 
> Hopefully, if they don't show, I'll get the time to offer my suggestions.


Wow, not sure which TAM members you are insulting here... but you are way out of line.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> Buddy 2000...love to hear your suggestions..how do u get someone depressed to actually take action without getting them upset. .it seems as the smallest thing can upset her ..*or distract her from important things *...I feel as if I am playing the same record over and over when we communicate and it's always leads to the same place ..stuck. .and not much progress of any kind ....


When you say "important things", what are these things? Do you just mean sex? Or is there more?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> I just got his needs her needs.
> I have read :
> 
> MMSL - Married Man Sex Primer
> ...


That's quite a list... So what's your wife's top love languages?


I think that there are at least 3 more that you need to read, in the order listed below.

*"Love Busters" by Dr. Harley
"His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Harley*

The two above books are a lot about building EMOTIONAL intimacy. From the sounds of it, you and your wife have basically lost most, if not all, emotional intimacy. The strong connection is gone.

There is a saying that is a bit simplistic but that makes a good point.... "Women need a reason to have sex, men need a place."

The point being that women need more emotional intimacy and connection in order to desire their spouse/SO sexually. This is especially true the longer the relationship goes on. This is why married couples need to continue to date each other... in the same why that they dated before marriage.

When you build emotional intimacy, you build passion in the relationship. And passion equals a very good sex life.



*"Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence" by Esther Perel*

And this book is about exactly what the title says... how to build and maintain sexual desire and a great sex life. But the other books comes first to rebuild the emotional intimacy.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

*Re: Changing Intimacy - Sexless Marriageelpful*



EleGirl said:


> Wow, not sure which TAM members you are insulting here... but you are way out of line.


Hmmm...

Not sure how you interpreted this.

I simply hadn't seen any of the usual TAMers who I consider helpful in these situations show up yet. I was short on time and was saying that if they didn't show up, hopefully I'd find the time to comment.

I certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone and never would have imagined that what I said could be interpreted as such.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> If her need is no sex the book won't do a whole lot of good.


The book is "HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS". It about both of them identifying their needs and then each meeting the other's needs. So it does not matter if she does not need sex. He does. It's part of a marriage. The book has a chapter on this for women who are stuck in the place his wife is stuck. So yea, the book does a whole lot of good.



john117 said:


> You seem to have a difficult time understanding that some women can't wait to hit late 40's to 50 so that they can turn in their sexuality card and be done with it.


Funny, I don't know any women in real life who are like this. Just because your wife is, it does not mean that all or most women are.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Thankfully it's a smaller percentage of women, but just because you don't have first hand experience it doesn't invalidate my position.

It's all a game of numbers. 3 times in 18 months contains an awful amount of information. Feel free to ignore it 😂

Her needs are to be left alone and sleep 10 hours a day. End of discussion. 

Now, OP mentioned bouts of screaming.... not that I'm surprised but do you feel that she has a hard time regulating her emotions?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> Well I guess the No More Mr Nice Guy is not doing things in order to get something.
> Being honest with how you feel...and doing what makes you feel good. I guess I would
> have to re-read that now... I am not sure if that will help.. I have been on with coaches
> and authors and was told that perhaps my wife should have an endocrine test as if I
> ...


The books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" are about both of you being involved. At first it would just be you since she does not seem open to reading a book or two. But you can start out with just you doing what the books say to do. At some point, she will join in and read the books.

You cannot change your wife through your own will. However you have control over yourself and can change yourself. This type of unilateral change will cause your wife to change. When you change, she will have to change.

For example if you quit giving your cooking breakfast and dinner for your daughter and letting your wife have all that free time, your wife will have to change. She will have to start cooking for your daughter. Change your behavior and your wife will have to change hers. You don't tell your wife to change. She will chose to change. You will have no control over how she changes.... but she will change. Hopefully it will be positive changes.

What is the 180 that you did? Is it the one linked to in my signature block below? If so, what did you expect it to do?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" are about both of you being involved. At first it would just be you since she does not seem open to reading a book or two. But you can start out with just you doing what the books say to do.
> 
> At some point, she will join in and read the books.


And we know that because.... (repeat comment thru several more of the post expectations)

EleGirl, you have much to learn about the dark emotional side of people...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> You need to work on your reading comprehension. I and others have told you over and over to be proactive. All you do is whine, no wonder your wife doesn't want to have sex with you. Seriously man get a grip.
> 
> Tell her this -
> "Right now I don't feel loved by you. That needs to change. If there is something you need from me to help you get in the mood tell me and we can work on that. But I mean work on that. Right now I don't feel loved without sex, as my wife you need to understand this. Now that you do if we don't work on this then you are telling me where I stand as far as your priorities. If my feeling love is not my wife's priority how do you expect me to stay married to you. I am with you to feel loved. Not for cars, and houses, and careers, I can get them on my own. If you resent me for something be honest and tell me. If you are not attracted to me be honest and tell me, but work on it with me like the team we are supposed to be."
> ...


For those giving us hell about suggesting the HN/HN book and Love Busters.

The purpose of the books are to get a couple talking to each other on an honest level.

My suggestion would be for the OP to read the books and do the suggested work that the books lay out. That way he learns a lot about himself and even about his wife (he can ask her questions even if she will not read the book).

Then, after he's learned what there is to learn from the books, tells her something like the above. He can tell her that part of fixing this is that she has to also read the books and they need to work through the stuff in the books together because he cannot stay in a marriage as it is any longer. THEY have to fix this together.

But the books give a good map for fixing things. IT's not just about the sex. There is more wrong with the marriage than the lack of sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> Perfect! My non medically astute analogy holds
> 
> By the time most MEN come to TAM its Mayo Clinic time.


TAM is not equivalent to the Mayo Clinic. We are just a bunch of people posting on the internet who have very limited knowledge of what works and does not work. Mostly people here are shooting from the hip. And this is why pointing people to resources like counselors and good self-help books, while giving them emotional support is the best way to handle things. 





john117 said:


> By the TIME most WOMEN come to TAM its time for an office visit😂


Most women who come to TAM with marital problems come here for one of 3 reasons...

1) They are being seriously physically and/or emotionally abused.

2) They are in a sexless marriage with a man who withholds sex. Keep in mind that men withhold sex and make marriages sexless as often as women do. (But I guess from your point of view it's only important (a Mayo Clinic case) if it's the wife withholding sex.

3) Their husband is cheating on them.

Yea, those are only minor, silly 'office visit' issues.

Get a grip.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You attribute magical powers to those books. There's a lot more magical power in a serious "fix or replace" discussion followed by actually doing what you say you will do.

When the marriage is so one sided and so messed up books and DIY pop psych don't work. It would be great if they did but....

I would try the DIY books only as a demonstration of the deeper issues in the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: Changing Intimacy - Sexless Marriageelpful*



Buddy400 said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Not sure how you interpreted this.
> 
> ...


Sorry... I misread "worthwhile" as "worthless"... mia culpa


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> My wife has said that I know that we care about each other very much. Last time after she screamed at our daughter because she will have these outbursts of painful screaming where she loses herself.. I told her that I would take care of daughter if she wants to go get some air. Then I suggested after she kept waking up complaining about things I did that perhaps its best if I find my own place and we have some space for a while. That I could not take her jumping on me every morning when she gets out of bed ( she is last one out of bed in family) and that her screaming does not work for me. That it is getting old and wearing on me and that in stead of yelling at our 6 year old daughter she can communicate differently.


This is why you also need to read the book “Love Busters” before you talk to your wife about all this. It’s why I said to read it first.

Her screaming at you and your daughter is a HUGE love buster. So is her putting you down all the time. If she cannot stop this bad behavior on her own, she needs to go to individual counseling, or read some very good self-help books and stop the abusive behavior.

If she wants to be richer than you are capable of earning… and you earn a very good income, she needs to go out and earn what it she things she deserves. 

Before you can address the things brought up in HN/HN, you need to address love buster. She clearly has some very serious love busters. Why would you want to stay with a woman who treats you like this? She has to stop it.

And I’m sure that she has somethings about you that she finds to be love busters. She will need to tell you what they are and you will need to stop them. But keep in mind that you not earning more than several 100,000 is not an acceptable love buster for her hold you to.

Part of what I’m seeing in your posts is that you are a ‘Mr. Nice Guy’. Your wife screams at you, puts you down, but you just keep quiet about it. Sure you brought it up. But did anything change? Did you set a strong boundary about her love busters? Did you leave when it did not stop? NOPE. You just get passive aggressive and whiney. Here is something that you need to change about yourself. You do not stand up for yourself… the action of a weak ‘Mr Nice Guy’. It’s a huge turn off. {Consider this a loving kick in your back side, not a put down.}


sunchild15 said:


> She got really upset then said she would get her own place, then said I was kicking her out when my suggestion was me getting my own place. After she packed her few things and left the house stating to our daughter that she would be back tomorrow and our daughter crying, she came back a few hours later and said to me that she wants to work on our relationship and that she did not want our daughter to feel abandoned.
> 
> 
> We then had a chat for a few hours and she spent time writing me a 6 page letter stating that nowhere in her life can she be carefree listing all that she does - like a list of 30 things and recognizing what I do as a few things missing 90% of what I do.
> ...


Ok, so she responded to you setting a boundary. She opened up and wrote you a letter. And then you ignored her attempt to communicate. 

You could have very calmly written that both of you do many things… listed them in two columns. Then you could have said that if she felt that the division of labor was unfair, that the two of you could sit down and re-allocate who does what. You could even make this a monthly task where you two have a meeting to go over all the tasks and see if either of you feel overburdened and to adjust things. You also could have taken the opportunity to tell her that you love her and really appreciate all that she does. 

Instead you ignored her. You could undo that and write a reply after you read "Love Busters" and HN/HN.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> And we know that because.... (repeat comment thru several more of the post expectations)
> 
> EleGirl, you have much to learn about the dark emotional side of people...


LOL... clearly you have no clue about my life.

One thing I have learned is that if a person is willing to work on things and change, it will happen. And one person can have a strong influence on others.... to include one spouse on the other.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> You attribute magical powers to those books. There's a lot more magical power in a serious "fix or replace" discussion followed by actually doing what you say you will do.
> 
> When the marriage is so one sided and so messed up books and DIY pop psych don't work. It would be great if they did but....
> 
> I would try the DIY books only as a demonstration of the deeper issues in the marriage.


The books are not magical. What can seem magical is what happens when people are open to looking at the their lives and marriages through a new point of view. The books teach a new point of view.

They definitely changed me. I've seen others completely change themselves and their marriages.

I think that the fundamental difference between you and me is that you seem to be a dark pessimist. I, on the other hand, have faith in people and am an cautious optimist.

My optimism and faith in people is not born from living a "Pollyanna" life. My life has been anything but "Pollyanna".


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> For those giving us hell about suggesting the HN/HN book and Love Busters.
> 
> The purpose of the books are to get a couple talking to each other on an honest level.
> 
> ...


I am all for the book, that would be the --


--Then create conditions in your life where having sex will be easy, like having someone watch the kids. And spend the next month courting her, like you did when you first met her


I just think he should tell her how he feels as well. She need to do some work also. It's not all on him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> It'd be nice, but if the disconnection is severe, she will take those "sharp terms" in a negative manner.


It is negative! She should take it as a negative, this guy is close to leaving her. A little conflict in relationships is healthy. His needs, her needs. He is telling her his needs. 

I guess if you want him to spend 3 months trying to nice her into having sex with him it worth a shot. I just don't think for her sex is a priority. I think she thinks is just so he can get his rocks off. Even romancing her isn't going to get that through her head. She needs to understand that this man does not feel loved. If she cares about him that would be a big deal. 

Now maybe she doesn't feel loved either if that is the case this dialog would be the place to talk about that (and he should work as hard as he can on that). That is why I told him to say "whatever it is tell me and we will work on it." But frankly I don't think this woman has a clue about male sexuality and I don't think she wants to have a clue, or even thinks it is important. She is completely dismissive of him. Again if this was a man being completely dismissive of her emotional support would you be so quick to put it all on her? Unless she gets that this marriage will fail. She needs some motivation, and cold hard reality.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" are about both of you being involved. At first it would just be you since she does not seem open to reading a book or two. But you can start out with just you doing what the books say to do. At some point, she will join in and read the books.
> 
> You cannot change your wife through your own will. However you have control over yourself and can change yourself. This type of unilateral change will cause your wife to change. When you change, she will have to change.
> 
> ...


He can read all the books he wants, do all the counseling he wants, if she is not willing to be part of the process nothing is going to change. At this point she doesn't even know there is a process.:scratchhead: 

You folks are all putting the cart before the horse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I am all for the book, that would be the --
> 
> 
> --Then create conditions in your life where having sex will be easy, like having someone watch the kids. And spend the next month courting her, like you did when you first met her
> ...


I agree that it's not all on him. That's another reason that I like the books LB and HN/HN. To do the work requires that she also do her part of the work.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The books are not magical. What can seem magical is what happens when people are open looking at the their lives and marriages through a new point of view. The books teach a new point of view.
> 
> They definitely changed me. I've seen others completely change themselves and their marriages.
> 
> ...


Optimism is illogical😂


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> Optimism is illogical😂


Says the pessimist >


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's a good reason why - think of the chance that the DIY approach will work. It's a small chance. If she puts any effort in the DIY approach and it fails, wouldn't this give her a carte blanche to keep doing what she always has done?

Use the only opportunity you may have to seek professional counseling.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I get some comments on here that I am needy. It's very interesting to me..I also have gotten create a structure where your wife can have sex with you...we have a business and work when we want.

We have from 8 am to 5 pm Monday and Friday to ourselves with no other people arpund and work in home ...it's just me and my wife ..

As far as needy showing...I'm on here sharing my feelings and the truth of how I feel and I'm sharing here more openly. 

So I don't walk around wearing all this on my sleeve and many of the times my wife is sleeping or napping and she gets 9 to 11 hours per day of sleep..for work my wife does work where she doesn't talk to many people ...I get up early and deal with lots of people ....

I will read these books however ..I do hone stay think u could do all the right things and if your partner has health issues or is tired all day ..these books and philosophies can't influence an unhealthy person to respond if they are more concerned about rest and exhausted all of the time ...


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

john117 said:


> Optimism is illogical😂


No optimism is logical, or at least statistically justifiable. 

Most people and most cases can have a good outcome, given the right actions. That is what TAM is for.

And optimism improves your chances of success and your view of life in general. It is logical to do things that improve outcomes, even things that cannot be entirely logically justified or proved.

Some cases are worse than others. I think your experience in your marriage bleeds through here, but that doesn't mean all cases are that bad or everyone should be pessimistic.

Of course there comes a point where the likely outcomes are all so bad that optimism is just not seeing reality. While this poster still has good advice that hasn't been followed yet I don't think this case is there yet.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Agreed. That's why I don't focus on "most cases". Not anymore than the Mayo Clinic is focused on broken fingernails and knee scrapes.

Optimism based on hard data or trends is nice and justified. Optimism based on the specific case data and trends is wishful thinking.

It would be great if Mrs. OP had an awakening of some kind but based on the trend so far I'm not getting my hopes up. 

Most people can hope to get better outcomes and indeed, every once in a while you read those and it makes you feel good. But there are some cases that don't work this way. I wish they did.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> It would be great if Mrs. OP had an awakening of some kind but based on the trend so far I'm not getting my hopes up.


That is why we're pushing so hard for OP to change himself. Once HE changes, she will have no choice but to change in response. May not be the change he wants, but it will be movement.

OP, needy = continuing to do everything for the family when you get less than nothing in return. You're a doormat. Why would she want to have sex with that?

My H gets angry sometimes. Likes to blame me. I used to suck it up and apologize or kiss up to get him to calm down. 

Guess what I do now? Now that I've learned better? I LEAVE. I stop helping him, I walk away, I leave him stuck doing whatever it was. And I usually refuse to engage with him for at least a day or two. So HE KNOWS what he did.

Do you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> There's a good reason why - think of the chance that the DIY approach will work. It's a small chance. If she puts any effort in the DIY approach and it fails, wouldn't this give her a carte blanche to keep doing what she always has done?
> 
> Use the only opportunity you may have to seek professional counseling.


Apparenlty you have not been reading the posts.

The suggestion is that he use both a counselor and the books.

The books give more info than counselors usually do. Many counselors just sit and listen. Many have no interest in acutally fixing marriages, but instead simply help all of their clients accept the end of their marriage.

By having the books as a second level of information, the OP will go into counseling with an idea of where he would like things to go. Getting sex is not the only problem in his marriage. The books should help him work through this.

I think that you are invested in seeing others do what you really want to do in your marriage... walk.

The relationship in marriage ebbs and flows. Sometimes its very good, sometimes its not. Something like 85% of marriage in which people work through the hard times self report as very happy. It's definitely worth the effort.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> I get some comments on here that I am needy. It's very interesting to me..I also have gotten create a structure where your wife can have sex with you...we have a business and work when we want.
> 
> We have from 8 am to 5 pm Monday and Friday to ourselves with no other people arpund and work in home ...it's just me and my wife ..
> 
> ...


As you open the discussion up and talk about how you feel about things, what your needs are, etc. you will be able to talk to her about your concerns about her health and going to see a doctor. Just don't make it all about you wanting her to fix herself so she'll want more sex iwht you. Make it about your concern for her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera2 said:


> That is why we're pushing so hard for OP to change himself. Once HE changes, she will have no choice but to change in response. May not be the change he wants, but it will be movement.
> 
> OP, needy = continuing to do everything for the family when you get less than nothing in return. You're a doormat. Why would she want to have sex with that?
> 
> ...


You're talking Korea DMZ skirmishes and I'm thinking WW3.

Changing is good, and maybe even needed. Improvements are part of life. But it is a serious red herring to expect sho will change if he changes for the better.

An entitled princess will howl when the services cease. She will not think of her role into this mess. It will all be blamed on OP and how he's not meeting her needs.

I'm all for not being a doormat but let's not call that "change". Especially for the better.

The above assumes he's not an a-hole and that no major personality repairs are needed. He sounds like a decent person stuck in a bad situation.

What you do works for your husband and you because of a simple reason. You each have something the other person wants and are willing to compromise. 

Thus isn't the case here. Unless he's willing to withhold something she cares about and can't get by herself such as financial resources he's done. 

In your case your husband needs your affection and a couple "cold" days help nudge him along. You need him too. In OPs case this isn't the case. She wants financial stability, not love and affection. 

If she valued love and affection and the like she would not be in the once in six months plan. 

In my case, J2 hardly needs my financial resources or my affection or even my occasional help in her current job. Exactly what would I change? She doesn't care about me and vice versa. Zombie is as zombie does.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

pshaw

In all your time here, you have done NO learning about what makes women tick. In your world women are simply frigid, selfish, and uncaring. In YOUR marriage, evidently.

OP, please don't listen to john. All he wants is for all men to leave all women because all women are b*tches. Do YOU want to live in that world?


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> I do practice affection without any desire for being sexual. Perhaps I should *take on the game of not wanting
> sex for 6 months* since time goes by anyways and focus more on affection and conversation.


Huh? Now why in the world would you do something so foolish? Aside from it being impossible for a normal person (especially a healthy male) to not want sex for 6 months, this would be completely dishonest to her and untrue to yourself. I don't know who is feeding you such suggestions, but run away from that person.

I get an overall vibe from you that your approach to sex may be extremely passive. And that you seem to spend alot of time *talking* about how you never have sex, and rarely ever attempt to *initiate sex*. It isn't sexy to talk about never having sex: no woman has ever been turned on by such "logic". So let us see how you're doing with the basic skill of initiating sex with your wife:

1. How often do you initiate sex?
2. Describe in detail HOW you initiate sex: is it verbal? what exact words? is it physical? what moves do you do?
3. What exactly does she say/do when you initiate?
4. What exactly do you say/do when she rejects your advance?
5. What is the "setting" when you initiate sex: daytime? lunch? night? Are you always in the bedroom/kitchen/car when you initiate?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

sokillme said:


> It is negative! She should take it as a negative, this guy is close to leaving her. A little conflict in relationships is healthy. His needs, her needs. He is telling her his needs.


He already told her his needs. What is the situation, as a result of the total approach?



> I guess if you want him to spend 3 months trying to nice her into having sex with him it worth a shot.


It isn't about being submissive. It is about focusing directly on the things that cause her to desire sex. Otherwise, she feels obligated into having sex. The only thing that is long-lasting is natural desire.




> I just don't think for her sex is a priority. I think she thinks is just so he can get his rocks off.


Exactly true. This is why we need to change the situation, so that sex is a priority for her. This will only happen if she wants intimacy for herself, as well.



> Even romancing her isn't going to get that through her head. She needs to understand that this man does not feel loved. If she cares about him that would be a big deal.


Even in a strong relationship, the female counterpart could take his "I don't feel loved" as a personal attack on her. It is not as easy as whether or not she cares, in the aggregate.



> Now maybe she doesn't feel loved either if that is the case this dialog would be the place to talk about that (and he should work as hard as he can on that).


In the vast majority of these cases, the female counterpart has multiple needs that she is not being fulfilled on. Because of their inability to communicate well, nothing gets past announcing the grievance. Soon, the grievance no longer is mentioned.

What even most counselors and therapists don't see, is that there is a duality to every situation. What I mean is, that, there are two potential victims in every situation. Even if he does exactly what I tell him to do, she will most likely dodge the subject for some time. The negative emotional reaction is part of that defense. It is used to get individuals out of an uncomfortable situation.

Her coming to terms with what she is doing wrong will cause her discomfort. Predictably, individuals tend to act in ways that navigate around discomfort. The approach can seem very rational, but it is all of the associative interactions that really determine success or failure.

If he even gets upset at her, it will increase the difficulty to resolving this issue. Why? It increases the level of her discomfort. In a way, she will likely feel that she bears the weight of her feelings and his.

As such, the recommended approach has to consider how to navigate a hurt female counterpart. It also must consider how to stay the course, instead of resorting to victimhood and/or righteous indignation. This tends to take training, along the lines of a Cognitive Behavioral Therapy approach. However, there are also skills that everyone can and should use, in every situation.




> That is why I told him to say "whatever it is tell me and we will work on it." But frankly I don't think this woman has a clue about male sexuality and I don't think she wants to have a clue, or even thinks it is important.


It can still feel pressured. It isn't that women don't understand, necessarily. 



> She is completely dismissive of him. Again if this was a man being completely dismissive of her emotional support would you be so quick to put it all on her? Unless she gets that this marriage will fail. She needs some motivation, and cold hard reality.


Again, I advise the one that is awake enough to ask for help. That doesn't mean they are asking for my help. They are just looking for answers, and most often, they seek an answer that they "know" will work. This means that individuals tend to fall back on common knowledge (along comfortable lines), rather than less common, but well-founded knowledge.

Were this man dismissive of her....

Well, I would advise the same skills for her, assuming she was asking for help.

What you should know is that the surface issues are not the real cause for marital strife. Like I alluded to, individuals attempt to avoid discomfort. That means that the very deep issues don't get looked at, as all they do is argue about surface ones. This happens because individuals get upset (usually immediately).

What you call "nice-ing her" (somewhat mischaracterized) is the approach to have her drop her guard, so that she opens up. If you can get a woman to open up, the problem is very easy to resolve. There tends to be a thin and thorny outer layer. If partners can get past that, they are golden.


My personal approach comes from realizing that an emotionally intelligent approach is often not enough. All of the skills are meant to eliminate discomfort. If partners are comfortable, then the are very reasonable to interact with.

With discomfort, we see extremely predictable actions and reactions.

Thanks


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

tommyr said:


> Huh? Now why in the world would you do something so foolish? Aside from it being impossible for a normal person (especially a healthy male) to not want sex for 6 months, this would be completely dishonest to her and untrue to yourself. I don't know who is feeding you such suggestions, but run away from that person.
> 
> I get an overall vibe from you that your approach to sex may be extremely passive. And that you seem to spend alot of time *talking* about how you never have sex, and rarely ever attempt to *initiate sex*. It isn't sexy to talk about never having sex: no woman has ever been turned on by such "logic". So let us see how you're doing with the basic skill of initiating sex with your wife:
> 
> ...


1. How often do you initiate sex?

*** I used to initiate a few times a week. After repeated rejections over and over I have stopped initiating sex, based on 
my wife's reactions. Lately every time we lay in bed my wife looks exhausted and she is always yawning. I can not picture
her wanting to please me or even be motivated to generate sexual energy if she starts yawning at 5 pm or 6 pm and she 
looks like she could not even be in the mood, when I have tried before and ignored this its become, I am tired, or why is
it when we are in bed that our relationship is all about sex ( that is when I would initiate 1-2 times per week and even when
I would initiate once every few weeks. Her perception is that I want sex every single day and that I think about it much more
then her. Lately I have sensed her energy as tired and its usually very predictable outcome in the past. The last time I initiated
she said that our whole relationship revolves around us having sex when we had sex 3 weeks before that she thought we just had
sex like a week ago. The time before that she started reacting again. I explained that I wanted her and missed her and she said
she was tired, the next night she said she would want sex but was still tired. The next night she said ok lets have it and we 
had it and then after 5-6 minutes, I hugged her and wanted to keep going because she did not orgasm, which she usually does
and she said no that is ok, you got what you wanted why cant you just be thankful for what we did do.. 

2. Describe in detail HOW you initiate sex: is it verbal? what exact words? is it physical? what moves do you do?
* I hold her hand throughout the day, I listen to her, I put my hand on her leg when watching tv, typically I will hug 
her and kiss her. Many times instead of reciprocating the kiss it seems as if its just me trying to kiss her and she seems
in her head judging or reacting to how I am kissing, I will give her a back massage or rub her arms or legs and kiss
her neck and behind her ears.. she may say what are you doing ? Are we on some kind of mission here ? Many times
it goes into her moving it into talking about work or life and exhausting herself and me while we lay in bed talking for 
2-3 hours before she shuts off the lights and goes to sleep..MOVES ? Did I answer your question ? 

3. What exactly does she say/do when you initiate?
** Look at me weird like she is annoyed, Look at me like she is in shock that I am being affectionate
Many times she will say that she is tired and she will get up and shut out the light and roll over to 
her side of the bed and look away. She will start on the conversation of what AM i doing ? Do I have some mission?
Sometimes in the past she would react and say, perhaps I cant fulfill your needs, maybe you need to find someone 
else to have sex with, or you seem to think about SEX alot ( this was a response in bed to a text message I sent her 
at 11 AM saying: "I am thinking about you xoxoxo" She will then start talking when we lay down as to why people
care so much about sex ? Many times she does not reciprocate my affection, she will let me touch her without touching 
me in return ..She would say that she feels pressure, that I am a different person when we lay in bed together then from
when we work together or sit on sofa watching tv, to when we go out with her family...

4. What exactly do you say/do when she rejects your advance?
Many times I will say that I miss her, I will say ok and hug her and put my arm around her.
I will perhaps shut out the light so we can go to sleep.. Sometimes I say ok, I am gong to 
go watch tv because I am not tired yet .. Sometimes I express to her based on her making 
a comment about me wanting sex, such as its normal healthy behavior to have sex and 
want it since we work all of the time and I dont get much time alone with you that this 
is the best time since during the day your in work mode and all ..

5. What is the "setting" when you initiate sex: daytime? lunch? night? Are you always in the bedroom/kitchen/car when you initiate?

I have tried on the sofa, however she tends to sit on her side and have a blanket on her or a 
labtop between us on the sofa, I have tried during the day yet , she does not think that is the 
right time because we have work to do, and have to get work done ( we work at home and there
are no deadlines except the ones we give ourselves and work can be done any time of the day ) 
I have sent her messages on computer, tried during the day and her comment is how can i focus 
on that when we have work to do , and that she appreciates the gesture, obviously I am thinking 
about something different then her at 11 am and everyone has their faults ...
always in the bedroom yes, I have tried in living room and kitchen and she always reacts weirdly 
or that she has things to do ...

If you have any ideas on how else to initiate that would be good, lately she is always yawning or 
looks very serious so that tends to have me put my sexual expression back in myself and I have 
been rejected so many times I am feeling a bit - like is it safe to initiate or what does she look 
like on her side..is she moody , yawning tired ...which see seems.

For example me and my daughter woke up tday at 6 am, its 9 am I have already cooked me and 
my daughter breakfast, cleaned all of the dishes and gotten my daughter ready for the day and 
my wife will probably sleep until 10:00 or 11 am...

Last night we were here at home she watched tv with daughter and me and it was 9:30 pm and 
she was in bathroom and laying in bed while I put daughter to sleep. When I came in at 10 PM
she started talking about daughters classes from a few weeks ago and about their program and 
I went to wash off in shower and when I came out 5 minutes later she was almost asleep so I 
went and shut off the light . So she has about 12 hours sleep and then the pattern when she 
gets up is she will come out whenever she gets up and start inspecting what I have done and 
she will cook her own breakfast and spend time eating ...

I read the love busters book someone recommended ( not all of it ) but I am definitely the 
GIVER in the relationship and she is more of the TAKER. I am not sure how to break this 
pattern and it seems as if this excessive sleeping is a way to withdrawl from everyone and 
be by herself ( it could be part depression, hormones etc ) I dont think sleeping 12 hours 
and then yawning throughout the day is normal...

Yesterday we were talking about carbs and energy and she has the minimalist idea that if she 
doesnt do much she dhould have to eat much, I am 2 x bigger than my wife and she comments 
on how much I eat of each thing - I listen to my trainer and he says I dont eat enough carbs
then yesterday she said maybe I should look at getting thinner rather than muscular. What is 
funny when we first met and we were having sex, oral and adventurous sex and all I was maybe
20-30 lbs heavier and not as in good shape as I am now.

I am about 187-190 5'10 and do Yoga 8 times per month , cardio and training eat all organic
unprocessed, no sugars, only fish and vegetables and complex carbs. I eat super clean - amazing actually..
she seems to always watch me and make comments. I know that its not about how you look and just 
because I am good looking and in great shape - doesnt help the relationship - I am just saying 
that its kind of funny to me that she monitors what I eat and my time so much... 

I wish she invested the time in reading about marriage and researching being happily married.
I do not want to point to blaming - I am just saying that its interesting to me how she researches
property, money, news , world issues and doesnt research marriage and sexuality .. Like I know
sex is healthy for you in many ways in so many different levels. Perhaps I am a more physical person.

I have always been physical with sports, dancing and life. My love languages are : 
Acknowledgement / Appreciation and Physical Contact , Apparently her love languages are:
Quality Time and quite possibly rule oriented service


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## ambulance.girl5 (Jul 6, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Yes. Reading all these replies and suggestions definitely gets me thinking of what the right solution is.
> Yes, stop doing all that I am doing, Read NMMNG and HNHN again, set appointment with a counselor
> and go hide in the closet when I feel sexual ... its a bit frustrating after time and time again to feel like
> nothing I do for me to progress on this in my marriage is effective and it can definitely take the wind
> ...


You say you're going to read HNHN and NMMNG...did it not stick the first time? Did you not learn what your unique wife, uniquely needs/wants? And have you read The 5 Love Langauges? It's very hard for a woman not to respond when you're speaking HER "langauge" fluently...and vice versa.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

My love languages are : Acknowledgement / Appreciation and Physical Contact , Apparently her love languages are: Quality Time and quite possibly rule oriented service


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I hold her hand throughout the day, I listen to her, I put my hand on her leg when watching tv, typically I will hug
> her and kiss her. Many times instead of reciprocating the kiss it seems as if its just me trying to kiss her and she seems
> in her head judging or reacting to how I am kissing, I will give her a back massage or rub her arms or legs and kiss
> her neck and behind her ears.. she may say what are you doing ? Are we on some kind of mission here ? Many times
> ...


Seriously? You touch her this much every day?! Yuck, no wonder she thinks all you want is sex.

Walk up to her in the morning and give her a hug and a kiss and just walk away. No more hand holding unless you're on a date. When you get home, come up to her and kiss her for several seconds, and then walk away. Once a week or so, at bedtime, pick her up and carry her to the bedroom and put her down on the bed - but no sex. If you're watching tv, put her feet on your lap and just massage them a bit, and then stop, and just watch tv with her feet still on your lap. Let her start seeing you as a man again. And leave her wanting more.



> I read the love busters book someone recommended ( not all of it ) but I am definitely the
> GIVER in the relationship and she is more of the TAKER. I am not sure how to break this
> pattern and it seems as if this excessive sleeping is a way to withdraw from everyone and
> be by herself


First, read the whole book. Second, I think you are SO intense and focused on her that she prefers to lie in bed or sleep just to get away from you. I know I would. NMMNG should teach you how to stop the giving pattern. But, quick and dirty: STOP DOING THINGS FOR HER. It really is that easy. Let her make her own food. Let her feed the kids. Let her do at LEAST as many chores as you do; pick things you don't care if they get done (like washing her clothes) and just stop doing them, one by one. Say no when she wants to do something you don't want to do, and go do something YOU want to do. 

That is how you stop being a giver.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I was just explaining what kind of initiation I show..today I said good morning and got her coffee...I may kiss her goodbye or perhaps hold her hand if we take a walk..that's it..I'm not doing all of this all of the time


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I have read love languages and I have worked on her love language. Perhaps I have the wrong ones.
Is it possible that perhaps I am speaking the right ones but she is not hearing it because of her being 
tired and worn down all of the time because of stress, depression and hormones.

Has anyone here ever tried to speak or help someone that is sick before ? Have they really heard 
what you are saying or responded to all of the right / correct words and practices that you worked 
on to make it better ? I have seen many people say the right thing to the wrong ears. First you 
need ears that hear ? Otherwise would you not take everything personally as an attack if you 
have no energy and vitality ??

So I do imagine there needs to be some pattern broken. It seems like we have been in the same
pattern week after week, weekend after weekend.. Its like a hangover every saturday and sunday..

There is always some ailment, 
- I am tired
- that dinner I ate must have messed up my stomach 
- I think the desert I had messed up my system - I felt so tired 
- I am aching from working out yesterday 
- My back is sore - heatpack I need to put on it 
- I feel tired I am taking a nap 
- Perhaps we can do wash right now on our weekend - run errands do a bunch of things to get done 

These things always seem to come up when I am around. Or things are not done unless I am around.
My wife has the car from Monday through friday to get these things during the week. In addition she
takes time to go to yoga and trainer during work hours, that rule is just off limits for intimacy time..
During the day in in appropriate ..

Today I opted out of going to see family for the second time in the last 3 days because I wanted to 
do something different for myself and also because I just feel like a 5th wheel these days, the driver
or the servant that runs errands. I told her to go have fun that I have work tomorrow and next 
week and I do not want to go, so she is going with my daughter and I am going for a run and 
doing things i have to get done ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Every post makes you sound like you're trying to tell us what you think we want to hear.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Ok, That could be right.. I guess you may have a point.
I am just explaining the situation. I feel a bit stuck I guess...
Guess I had different expectations after all of this time.
Honestly this whole thing has gotten to me...


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> 1. How often do you initiate sex?
> 
> *** I used to initiate a few times a week. After repeated rejections over and over* I have stopped initiating sex*, based on
> my wife's reactions. Lately every time we lay in bed my wife looks exhausted and she is always yawning. I can not picture
> ...


That was a long, confusing, often conflicting answer, but I *think* what your actual response is in bold: you've stopped initiating sex. And this is one of the main reasons why you aren't having any.

Have you asked her what frequency she would be most happy with? And what is *your* ideal frequency? Have you discussed this and negotiated this, asking her for a specific compromise frequency that you both could be happy with?




sunchild15 said:


> 2. Describe in detail HOW you initiate sex: is it verbal? what exact words? is it physical? what moves do you do?
> * I hold her hand throughout the day, I listen to her, I put my hand on her leg when watching tv, typically I will hug
> her and kiss her. Many times instead of reciprocating the kiss it seems as if its just me trying to kiss her and she seems
> in her head judging or reacting to how I am kissing, I will give her a back massage or rub her arms or legs and kiss
> ...


Again, long response but this time you did not really answer the question. What specific act or phrase do you use when you are initiating sex? She should not be wondering about your "mission" it should be perfectly clear you are initiating sex. And there is nothing to be ashamed of, it's not a *secret* mission!



sunchild15 said:


> 3. What exactly does she say/do when you initiate?
> ** Look at me weird like she is annoyed, Look at me like she is in shock that I am being affectionate
> Many times she will say that she is tired and she will get up and shut out the light and roll over to
> her side of the bed and look away. She will start on the conversation of what AM i doing ? Do I have some mission?
> ...


Hard stop, right there, reread what you wrote in bold. This is VERY important information, and should have led immediately a come-to-jesus conversation. What exactly did you do/say when she told you this?



sunchild15 said:


> 4. What exactly do you say/do when she rejects your advance?
> Many times I will say that I miss her, I will say ok and hug her and put my arm around her.
> I will perhaps shut out the light so we can go to sleep.. Sometimes I say ok, I am gong to
> go watch tv because I am not tired yet .. Sometimes I express to her based on her making
> ...


You are way too nice. I am not saying you should get angry and react (that does NOT work) but it is not OK for her to constantly reject you, but you are telling her it *is* OK. Instead, you should be saying, "ok dear I understand you are too tired tonight, but it has been (fill in the blanks) days/weeks/months so I am asking you to plan your day tomorrow conservatively so that you will have enough energy for us tomorrow night"




sunchild15 said:


> 5. What is the "setting" when you initiate sex: daytime? lunch? night? Are you always in the bedroom/kitchen/car when you initiate?
> 
> I have tried on the sofa, however she tends to sit on her side and have a blanket on her or a
> labtop between us on the sofa, I have tried during the day yet , she does not think that is the
> ...


You sound like a professional people pleaser. And not just with your wife, but with us too. I feel utterly patronized by your overwhelming response, and not in a good way.

I am sorry, I do not want to insult you. I understand your pain and have been there.

Here is my advice: Do some research into divorce, there are alot of online forums that can educate you on what happens during a divorce. You especially want to understand the division of finances in your state, if needed talk to a lawyer about how your business would be divided. Your objective is to demystify the path of divorce, it should not be some black hole of pain and uncertainty, but something that (if needed) you would know how to proceed.

Now, arrange for a "dinner date" in your sunroom or some comfortable/quiet/private location. Let her know (a few days ahead) that you intend to have a very important conversation about the marriage (- after a good long pause -) and that Yes, part of this discussion WILL involve your sexlife.

When the appointed time comes, you tell her that you really love her but she seems unwilling to meet your needs in the marriage, and this simply does not work for you. Let her know you are a healthy male with a normal sex drive and that you could be happy with sex (__fill in the blank__) times per week. Ask her if she could, to save your marriage, agree to this. Tell her this really is a dealbreaker for you in the relationship, and you have done some research into the specifics of ending a marriage. Depending on her reaction, you might give her some time to consider this important decision, schedule another "date" in a few days time to determine which path forward she wants to pursue.

I am NOT telling you to leave her. I am telling you to prepare yourself for that possibility, then get honest with her that the marriage will end unless a permanent solution to your completely legitimate sexual needs can be found.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The peanut gallery's missing cues left and right. 

Think of her comment where weeks after sex he tries again and is told.. you want it every day. 

That familiar proclamation indicated that in her head there's two frequencies, daily and rarely. Nothing in between.

Good luck with that.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

john117 said:


> The peanut gallery's missing cues left and right.
> 
> Think of her comment where weeks after sex he tries again and is told.. you want it every day.
> 
> ...


That is why I advised him to propose a specific/realistic frequency that she might say Yes to, if she actually values him and the marriage. Gives her an opportunity, if she is willing, to save the marriage. Or if she isn't, to Fail Fast and spare them both years of misery.

Your advice is he should immediately press the destruct button. You've overlooked a distinct possibility: she might actually love him, and not want to lose him, and be willing to consider his totally reasonable request. I know this is possible because it happened in my marriage: but it took seeing my "taillights in the driveway" to snap her out of the sexless fog.


----------



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Thanks for the advice.

Your more than likely right that I am in a pattern of pleasing people. With business it works to some extent however I have noticed after much education that I am setting myself up for a loss of attraction and me being the giver does not always mean I get what I really want or need. I always expected that 
if you gave to people and helped they would think about you as well.

The other thing which is not working is I always feel like that I can solve this by some means
other than laying down boundaries and have a meeting talking about how this has to work. I 
have been told to go to a counselor and I keep falling into the pattern of thinking all of this 
will improve if i give it space or perhaps work on this on my own. That is not the case.

I really love my wife and I do not want to make her feel worse and we actually have a great 
relationship if we remove sex and passion from the equation. I just do not where it all changed
and why that part has vanished however after reading the books and listening to some of the 
feedback on here I can see that perhaps I have over gave, over pleased, over served..
when I state my needs to her I feel like she shames me for talking about sex or wanting it 
she almost makes it sound like what I want is kind of crazy and then I double think myself as well
and after all of the rejection I start analyzing what I am doing...

As far as what do I say to initiate sex, and being clear that is a great idea. What do you 
say..What do I say ? Hmm, that could be super clear if I say >.what : I really want to 
make love to you right now, or I want to get passionate with you - perhaps I am the one
that needs to be clearer in what I want. Perhaps people her can share what they say 
when they initiate sex with their partner ? It seems simple ..however again I am worried
about pleasing someone ? - I want to please you, I want to give you pleasure right now - 
I always feel if I get straight to the point perhaps there is no warm up ..LOL and its 
too direct and perhaps that is my whole problem is learning how to be very direct and 
to the point with what I want - and knowing how to react to that if I get push back...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tommyr said:


> That is why I advised him to propose a specific/realistic frequency that she might say Yes to, if she actually values him and the marriage. Gives her an opportunity, if she is willing, to save the marriage. Or if she isn't, to Fail Fast and spare them both years of misery.
> 
> Your advice is he should immediately press the destruct button. You've overlooked a distinct possibility: she might actually love him, and not want to lose him, and be willing to consider his totally reasonable request. I know this is possible because it happened in my marriage: but it took seeing my "taillights in the driveway" to snap her out of the sexless fog.


He can propose all the compromise based frequency he wants. 

All his wife will hear is "he wants sex once a day".

If she was thinking the marriage is at risk she would not have completely deprioritized intimacy. It's that simple. 

If divorce is in the future she may play along for a while then back to once in six months slowly. By then they'll be a couple years older and good luck with that.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> I have read love languages and I have worked on her love language.
> Perhaps I have the wrong ones.
> Is it possible that perhaps I am speaking the right ones but she is not hearing it because of her being
> tired and worn down all of the time because of stress, depression and hormones.


This sounds like you have not talked to your wife to identify what her love language is. Why not?


sunchild15 said:


> Has anyone here ever tried to speak or help someone that is sick before ? Have they really heard what you are saying or responded to all of the right / correct words and practices that you worked on to make it better ? I have seen many people say the right thing to the wrong ears. First you need ears that hear ? Otherwise would you not take everything personally as an attack if you have no energy and vitality ??


You don’t even know what your wife’s love language is or what her issues really are. So the above is irrelevant. If she only understands Spanish, but you are speaking Chinese to her, you cannot blame the fact that she does not understand on things like her being tired.


sunchild15 said:


> So I do imagine there needs to be some pattern broken. It seems like we have been in the same
> pattern week after week, weekend after weekend.. Its like a hangover every saturday and sunday..


That’s right, the pattern needs to be broken. Part of breaking it is that you need to work on yourself. You need to change. One thing that you do differently is to talk to her about her needs. Talk to her about her love language. The point of things like love languages and HN/HN is not that you guess what her needs are, you have to engage with her and talk to her. It’s part of emotional intimacy.


sunchild15 said:


> There is always some ailment,
> - I am tired
> - that dinner I ate must have messed up my stomach
> - I think the desert I had messed up my system - I felt so tired
> ...


So she only feels aches, pains and tired when you are around? She’s 100% ok when you are not around? How do you know this?

You said that your wife listed all the things that she does in the email that you ignored. Would you please share with us the list that she had in the email? And add to it a list of the things that you do. I think that this would help us help you.


sunchild15 said:


> My wife has the car from Monday through friday to get these things during the week. In addition she takes time to go to yoga and trainer during work hours, that rule is just off limits for intimacy time.. During the day in in appropriate ..


You have only one car? How does your wife feel about this? 

Does it bother you that she goes to yoga and to a trainer thus making those times off limits for intimacy? If so, why?


sunchild15 said:


> Today I opted out of going to see family for the second time in the last 3 days because I wanted to do something different for myself and also because I just feel like a 5th wheel these days, the driver or the servant that runs errands. I told her to go have fun that I have work tomorrow and next week and I do not want to go, so she is going with my daughter and I am going for a run and doing things i have to get done ...


Good. When was the last time the of you went on a date?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Come on EleGirl, my wife's Thursday to Sunday "sinus infections" are part of the family legend. I decided to track those and it was either sinus infection or a fight about my older daughter nearly every weekend. For a long time. 

Once I made it clear I'm not playing she was miraculously cured.

You're falling for the same bait, hook, and snooker OP is falling for. That it's all random. Occasional.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> ok, I am reading HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS. It is interesting since I did pay a intimacy coach for 3 months time
> to coach me on getting closer to my wife who was a woman. We discussed non sexual touch and a bunch of
> these things.


I'm guessing you did not receive any benefit from the intimacy coach.

it's all about whether you have a receptive partner. 

You can be the most well coached ice dancer in the world, but if your partner won't put on her skates you'll be dancing by yourself!



sunchild15 said:


> I do practice affection without any desire for being sexual.


as someone who has personally struggled with this very issue, I would bet you are deluding yourself here.

you are almost never having sex. in this context, are you seriously able to engage in physical affection and not think of sex?

the only way I see this working is if you actually lose sexual attraction for your wife.



sunchild15 said:


> Perhaps I should take on the game of not wanting
> sex for 6 months since time goes by anyways and focus more on affection and conversation.


this might be worthwhile if it allows you to see that you are actually in control of your situation.



sunchild15 said:


> Perhaps its the
> conversation part that kind of baffles me a bit .. It suggests 15 hours per week to your partner. I feel that we
> talk right now about 15-20 hours per week about WORK, responsibilities things we can do with family. When the
> work, work , work part comes up it can get really draining for me because I feel all of those conversations lead
> to what I did not do, her expecting to be rich and perhaps more things I need to do - hoops I need to jump through.


you could try to set some ground rules: no talking about work or other obligations during your alone time

you could also let her know you're generally not interested in hearing criticisms from her. 

if she wants to speak to you in a collaborative way, you'd be open to that, but you're not interested in hearing a list of "to do's"



sunchild15 said:


> I wish we had more fun conversations and I have even asked my wife where she wants to go and what inspires
> her and what turns her on ... The last few times I have asked her to think or share she has said I do not really
> know .. I have never thought about it , and then she shifts it back on me, I was trying to get her to open up.


she doesn't want to give you instructions. she just wants you to "get it."

you should just do what you want to do and invite her along. If your life is actually interesting to her, she will want to go. If it's not, she won't.

Hopefully your life is interesting to you so that you'll be fine either way.



sunchild15 said:


> With the Non-sexual touch I worked on for months the 3 months ( 13 sessions- 1 per week ) led to the finale from
> the coach basically saying that I need to have a serious conversation with my wife and perhaps an ultimatum
> talk with her ... The coach explained that at this point - your wife needs to be part of this conversation and
> you need to have a conversation around her commitment and perhaps something on boundaries. We discussed
> ...


dude, I know you are trying, but this is seriously lame. you should stop listening to "coaches" like this. they are robbing you.

can you imagine going on a date with a woman and presenting her with a "menu" of "touch options"?!

totally lame.



sunchild15 said:


> As far as the affection, I hold hand, tell her I love her, tell her I care about her. I ask her how she is feeling? How was
> Yoga, How was the workout and gym, if she is hurting and needs a heat pack on her back if she wants a back rub.


Again, I know you are trying and are probably a really nice guy.

I want you to try to imagine how you look to an objective third party. 

Imagine you had zero history with your wife. Pretend she is just another, random woman. 

Would any woman be turned on by this type of stuff? It comes off as SO needy. It is so transparent that this all just trying to weasel your way into getting laid and that you need to get laid by her SO BADLY.

This really comes off as totally desperate.

You need to have some more self respect. This is both for your own benefit and for the benefit of any woman in your life.



sunchild15 said:


> My wife has said that I know that we care about each other very much. Last time after she screamed at our daughter
> because she will have these outbursts of painful screaming where she loses herself.. I told her that I would take care
> of daughter if she wants to go get some air. Then I suggested after she kept waking up complaining about things I
> did that perhaps its best if I find my own place and we have some space for a while. That I could not take her
> ...


if she is screaming at your daughter regularly, then she is the one who should be looking for her own place.

you should not be leaving your daughter to be subject to this.

your inability to control the situation is having ramifications beyond your love life.

the good news is that your wife is probably just a weak minded woman who is dying for you to exercise some control of the situation.

you should inform her very calmly that you will not allow this type of thing to continue.

Next time it happens, take your daughter out of the house and let your wife be angry by herself.

If you can calmly respond to these outbursts in a consistent way, I guarantee you they will be greatly reduced. 



sunchild15 said:


> She got really upset then said she would get her own place, then said I was kicking her out when my suggestion
> was me getting my own place. After she packed her few things and left the house stating to our daughter that she
> would be back tomorrow and our daughter crying, she came back a few hours later and said to me that she wants
> to work on our relationship and that she did not want our daughter to feel abandoned. We then had a chat for
> ...


don't share the email. that was her personal communication to you.

read what I wrote above. you need to be a strong, calming influence in your house.

don't let your sadness regarding your love live cause you to check out from standing up for your daughter.

if your wife can't handle this and wants to leave, let her go. let her see that you will be totally fine without her.



sunchild15 said:


> Non-Sexual Touch:
> 
> - Holding her hand and walking with her - no sexual initiation . incinuation
> - Sitting on sofa almost 5 nights per week resting my hand on her knee/ or holding her hand/ No sexual advances
> ...


is this a sex contract?

If I fulfill obligations 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, you will pay me in weekly sexual intercourse.

super lame. box office poison.



sunchild15 said:


> Now at night, her question will be do you want to watch episodes or tv or movie mon through sun, she never suggests
> laying down, being romantic, its always usually a movie/tv from 8:30 pm to 11 Pm to Bed to sleep. She is on sofa and
> in bathroom from time I start reading to my daughter and put her to sleep while my wife relaxes.


she'd rather be by herself than dealing with constant pressure to have sex with you.

Look, I get that these situations are death spirals once they get going. You're not getting laid, so all you can think about is getting laid. Then you turn her off because that's all you think about.

It's very hard to extract yourself from this spiral, but you must.

You must get comfortable with never getting laid by her again. Act as if you're already gone. Or better yet, actually go. That's the only way out.

The point is-- you CAN'T need her. As soon as you NEED her, you are NEEDY and that is a total turnoff.



sunchild15 said:


> Every week we visit her family 2 times per week. One time on Friday and also on Sunday. So she schedules 2 times
> a week in for them / us to all connect .. I guess lately I am asking how family gets a routine schedule and "US" we
> do not have time - but in actuality I spend every night with my wife and have spent 8 am - 4 Pm alone with her
> Monday through Friday where we work together and I just changed that this past week where I go out to work
> and see her at dinner time now. .


stop doing this stuff. there is no reason you should be spending this much time with her family given where your relationship is at. 

If you don't want to do it, don't do it.



sunchild15 said:


> So I felt like I was doing "His Needs Her Needs" Do I ask her to read the book or order it for her. Would that not
> be implying to her that she should look at the book because I think it is a good reference on how a man and woman
> are different ....


she is not going to read the book, man. this is another needy request. she already knows she is not meeting your needs. do you think it is a mystery to her what your needs are?



sunchild15 said:


> As I read His Needs Her Needs, I did hear that are exceptions to the cases in there and also role reversals. I noticed
> that when I have sex with my wife after she is done she seems to not want me to be affectionate and touch her . She
> seems to want to be left alone.. She never wants to have sex again or continue being romantic but that could have
> something to do with depression / energy or perhaps if it happens after 9 Pm she tends to want to just go to sleep
> right away..


what's the simplest possible explanation for all of the stuff you are writing?

It's that she's not attracted to you.

Accept that and start from there.

What are you doing that is unattractive?

Do you really want to be with someone who finds you so unattractive?

There is a lot to work on just in these two questions. And none of it involves asking her to do anything.



sunchild15 said:


> I have also noticed that with foreplay, she will let me kiss her breasts/nipples, give her oral, kiss her whole body
> which I enjoy, sometimes I breathe hard since its been a while and I am excited, she will ask if there is something
> wrong ? why am I breathing so hard, Also i give wet kisses and she will wipe her mouth and make a disgusted look.
> She will let me go down on her and make her feel good and then she just really wants me, its always just missionary
> ...


the disparity between you and her in bed is that you are very excited and enthusiastic about the opportunity to make love to her and she is reluctant and unenthusiastic. 

she is not interested in doing anything wild or passionate or in making it last any longer than absolutely necessary.

again, ask yourself why you are so committed to extracting this from her at all costs. it is not even GOOD. she doesn't want it. 

how could it be good for you if this is her attitude?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)




----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> You're talking Korea DMZ skirmishes and I'm thinking WW3.
> 
> Changing is good, and maybe even needed. Improvements are part of life. But it is a serious red herring to expect sho will change if he changes for the better.
> 
> ...


Agree that the highest probability is there is no solution.

so if OP is playing odds and wants to skip to the chase, he should just divorce and get it over with.

however, he clearly has major weaknesses that, if corrected, could cause a transformation. 

it's worth it for him to address these whether he divorces or not because no woman is going to dig this type of stuff.

even apart from other women, he should learn to love himself more and not rely on another for his happiness


----------



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

We have not been on a date in a few months as we lost our babysitter.
Also our date night would consist of babysitter coming from 3 PM To 9 PM, when 
we returned after the best restaurants and dinner we would come home and 
she would usually be tired and go to bed .. 

We just stopped the dates because of babysitter and felt that the $200. we spent 
was not worth it - or at least I did ..it didnt feel like a date for me - maybe she 
enjoyed it but we were forced to leave home drive to restaurants hang out and 
talk and come home and go to sleep most of the time..


----------



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm guessing you did not receive any benefit from the intimacy coach.
> 
> it's all about whether you have a receptive partner.
> 
> ...


RESPONSE: I guess I need to face the harsh reality of what you said. I made a life long commitment to be married. Yes, perhaps I am needy, so what are my solutions? Is not every question I ask her illustrating neediness or I would NOT CARE. What do I do with my sexual needs ? Just be ok with nothing and disconnect as much as I can with her ? I want to change this? What are your thoughts of a marriage counselor ?

You do not want to see the email, Do I respond to the email ?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> We have not been on a date in a few months as we lost our babysitter.
> 
> Also our date night would consist of babysitter coming from 3 PM To 9 PM, when we returned after the best restaurants and dinner we would come home and she would usually be tired and go to bed ..
> 
> We just stopped the dates because of babysitter and felt that the $200. we spent was not worth it - or at least I did ..it didnt feel like a date for me - maybe she enjoyed it but we were forced to leave home drive to restaurants hang out and talk and come home and go to sleep most of the time..


This sounds like the purpose of the dates for you was to get sex at the end of the date. Since sex did not happen, you stopped the dates. 

Dates don't have to cost $200. Some of the best dates are free, or nearly free. I don't know where you live, but I'll give an example from here where I live. We have a river walk that goes about 20 miles through the city. One of my favorite dates is to do the river walk, go to one of the several nature centers alone the river, then have a picknick in the trees. Cost... the cost of some wine (or other drink) and some snacks.

I really wish that your wife would come here and talk post. I have a feeling that there is an entire 'rest of the story' that you are not aware of.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It wasn't worth it because it was with her. Why not keep going but leave her with the kids? Don't stop your fun. Just don't include her if she's going to be a wet blanket.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> RESPONSE: I guess I need to face the harsh reality of what you said. I made a life long commitment to be married. Yes, perhaps I am needy, so what are my solutions? Is not every question I ask her illustrating neediness or I would NOT CARE. What do I do with my sexual needs ? Just be ok with nothing and disconnect as much as I can with her ? I want to change this? What are your thoughts of a marriage counselor ?
> 
> You do not want to see the email, Do I respond to the email ?


One of the issues that you are dealing with is that the more you don't get sex, the more you crave it.

It's like a person who is starving. Of course they will be come needy and beg for food.


----------



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

EleGrl:

You are right. I am also probably wrong in expecting that that small window is the only 
time we can have sex because she seems to be occupied every other night / day of the 
week.. Sure there is another story, she feels she can not be carefree and have sex because
she has responsibilities and we have a business to worry about all of the time...

I act weird now from the rejection, sure I am probably just speaking from my perception.

This is quite painful for me and I am not bringing it up any more because I would 
rather focus on what I can progress in my life .. I am not sure you can feel how 
frustrating this has been, its actually driving me a bit batty at the moment . You 
have no idea...perhaps her withdrawing has caused me to be down and depressed
that I can generate income and accomplish so many great things in life but in 'my 
marriage and intimacy I am a failure and reject . it doesnt seem like anything I do 
makes a difference or gets me closer to something I really really want ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you let your personal feeling of self worth be defined by someone else's whims you're setting yourself up for disaster.


----------



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

How do I handle not craving sex ?
Any ideas ...? I don't want to be needy..
This has become such an operation ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ignore it, and your wife at the same time. Detachment is your friend.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> RESPONSE: I guess I need to face the harsh reality of what you said. I made a life long commitment to be married. Yes, perhaps I am needy, so what are my solutions? Is not every question I ask her illustrating neediness or I would NOT CARE. What do I do with my sexual needs ? Just be ok with nothing and disconnect as much as I can with her ? I want to change this? What are your thoughts of a marriage counselor ?
> 
> You do not want to see the email, Do I respond to the email ?


the solution is there is no solution.

accept what IS.

she is not into you. the evidence is overwhelming.

yes, this medicine tastes like sh-t, but you need to swallow it.

she does not want who you are right now. 

you are not going to perform some deed or checklist and have her decide to want you. it is not a DECISION for her. it is a natural REACTION to who you are.

now, here is the good news. you CAN change. you can be much, much better.

you can be a self sufficient man who can be happy regardless of what anybody (including your wife) thinks about you.

if you can get yourself to that place, I guarantee you will be a very attractive guy, whether or not your wife realizes it.

And the odds are at this point that she will never realize it.

But this is not really bad. This is an opportunity for you to wake up and realize that you do not need her.

If you can fully swallow this, anything she gives you going forward will be a BONUS but not something that you need.

Unfortunately, the process to getting to that place can be quite painful.

That is why, along the way, you need to be extremely generous to yourself.

You will no longer be looking to her to take care of you. So you need to take care of yourself.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> One of the issues that you are dealing with is that the more you don't get sex, the more you crave it.
> 
> It's like a person who is starving. Of course they will be come needy and beg for food.


one approach to this is to detach the need from the person.

as in, you realize that your wife is no longer a sexual outlet for you.

yes, you want sex, but you know it is not going to come from her.

you do this so that your interactions with her can be free from pretext.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> How do I handle not craving sex ?
> Any ideas ...? I don't want to be needy..
> This has become such an operation ...


let's say you really wanted to fly a plane.

it would be so cool to just take off and fly wherever you wanted to go.

but you don't have a plane. so you can't do it, even though it would be super cool.

sex is exactly the same for you right now.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> EleGrl:
> 
> You are right. I am also probably wrong in expecting that that small window is the only
> time we can have sex because she seems to be occupied every other night / day of the
> ...


You have become the ONE PERSON she most wants to avoid because or your low self esteem, your neediness, your focus on sex, your Nice Guy personality, your fear of being divorced, and your inability to stand up for yourself and just let her SEE that you are unhappy. You're so chicken you can't even talk to her about this.

Now re-read the paragraph I just wrote. What is the one common denominator in all this? 

YOU

YOU are the problem here - at the moment.

I'm not blaming it all on you, but I AM saying that if you want change, IT HAS TO BE *YOU *CHANGING. At least first. You've been here all.this.time and you have have made ONE change so far that I've seen: you said no to going to her brother's.

Until you deal with YOUR fears, YOUR insecurity, YOUR low self esteem (in therapy), you will continue to get NOTHING from her. At least until she is SO fed up with you that she divorces you.

I'll say it one more time: women ONLY respond to strong men. And you are about as weak as they get. So NOTHING will change until YOU change.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> I act weird now from the rejection, sure I am probably just speaking from my perception.


I know this was not directed at me, but I understand what this is like.

At some point you will realize that no matter what you do, the outcome will be the same. Then you will stop playing the game.

Just because 1 woman is not into you does not mean you are a terrible person.

You can recognize the truth of the situation AND also that it is not the end of the world.

If you really want enthusiastic sex on a regular basis, you CAN get it, just maybe not from her.



sunchild15 said:


> This is quite painful for me and I am not bringing it up any more because I would
> rather focus on what I can progress in my life .. I am not sure you can feel how
> frustrating this has been, its actually driving me a bit batty at the moment . ...


I get it.

Your instinct to take a step back is correct. Your conflict is in fighting this instinct. 



sunchild15 said:


> You
> have no idea...perhaps her withdrawing has caused me to be down and depressed
> that I can generate income and accomplish so many great things in life but in 'my
> marriage and intimacy I am a failure and reject . it doesnt seem like anything I do
> makes a difference or gets me closer to something I really really want ...


you are not a failure. you can't make someone want you. she can't make herself want you either if she doesn't. so it is nobody's fault.

you can't compare this to making money or other rational activities. this is emotional. emotions don't run on logic.

put yourself in the position you would want to be in if you were on the dating market. 

treat your wife no better or worse than you would a new woman. this means she doesn't get special favors and she doesn't owe you anything. it means you want to impress her, but you're not counting on it and it won't be the end of the world if you don't (because there are lots of others).

I'm sure this probably feels a long way from where you are right now, but you can get there and it will all be totally fine.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you stopped doing all the chores for her?


----------



## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Ok. Detach..don't need sex..so for now if I feel any sexual urges I just go run 10 miles and work on my strength ..your all right and I have become afraid because trying to have an honest conversation with her without shame and getting into her opinions has not been possible ...

It does hurt and it beats you down. .feels like I need a new set of balls..


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> the solution is there is no solution.
> 
> accept what IS.
> 
> ...


Or change your mind and move on.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Ok. Detach..don't need sex..so for now if I feel any sexual urges I just go run 10 miles and work on my strength ..your all right and I have become afraid because trying to have an honest conversation with her without shame and getting into her opinions has not been possible ...
> 
> It does hurt and it beats you down. .feels like I need a new set of balls..


Write her a letter.


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

I was in the same boat as you - once the kids were about a year old, we finally went on a date night. Got dressed up a bit and went to a real nice restaurant and had a nice dinner and drinks. We both expected there would be sex at the end of the night. Long story short, ended up at a friends house, then when we got home and discharged the sitter, wife gets into her flannel PJ's and informs me that she's too tired for sex. 

Next week, we go out again with the same expectation (she even explicitly mentioned sex). Guess what? No sex - she was crampy. We hadn't had sex in over a year at that point. Since then, I've given up expecting sex when we go out - if she wants it, she knows where to find me.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Ok. Detach..don't need sex..so for now if I feel any sexual urges I just go run 10 miles and work on my strength ..your all right and I have become afraid because trying to have an honest conversation with her without shame and getting into her opinions has not been possible ...
> 
> It does hurt and it beats you down. .feels like I need a new set of balls..


just make your life better.

re-direct all of that energy that you've been devoting toward getting laid toward improving your life in other ways.

I bet you will be surprised how much happier you are after a couple of months of this.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ChargingCharlie said:


> I was in the same boat as you - once the kids were about a year old, we finally went on a date night. Got dressed up a bit and went to a real nice restaurant and had a nice dinner and drinks. We both expected there would be sex at the end of the night. Long story short, ended up at a friends house, then when we got home and discharged the sitter, wife gets into her flannel PJ's and informs me that she's too tired for sex.
> 
> Next week, we go out again with the same expectation (she even explicitly mentioned sex). Guess what? No sex - she was crampy. We hadn't had sex in over a year at that point. Since then, I've given up expecting sex when we go out - if she wants it, she knows where to find me.


This is the very definition of passive aggressive. Nothings going to change, see you in 10 years.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Or change your mind and move on.


this is really the best answer


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

What about seeing a counselor for marriage counseling? We have not done this yet?
I do not want to wait a year or 5 or 10 years. Lately I am probably taking me being 
last priority after all else... Do I want to get LAID yes, but more so I want my wife to 
desire connecting with me on a physical level...and have our passion back. I do not 
want to be a room mate.. I want a juicy relationship ..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

```

```



sunchild15 said:


> What about seeing a counselor for marriage counseling? We have not done this yet?
> I do not want to wait a year or 5 or 10 years. Lately I am probably taking me being
> last priority after all else... Do I want to get LAID yes, but more so I want my wife to
> desire connecting with me on a physical level...and have our passion back. I do not
> want to be a room mate.. I want a juicy relationship ..


:banghead:

Will you PLEASE STOP trying to change your wife?

It's getting embarrassing, the dozens and dozens of posts filled with advice about YOU changing YOU, and yet here you are AGAIN ignoring every bit of it and instead asking if we think therapy will change her.

Tell me, sunchild. Give me THREE THINGS you have done to stop being a Nice Guy, other than read books.

Cos I can only think of one. And it was TINY.

You don't WANT to change. You don't WANT to look at yourself. In typical Nice Guy style, all.you.want.to.do is blame it ALL on HER so you don't have to do any work. I'll bet if someone offered you some sex pills you could slip into her coffee and turn her into a pathetic horny zombie, you would take it, you're that weak.

This is getting ridiculous.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Ok. I will work on changing me and then reading back through NMMNG.
Thanks I get loud and clear that you think the issue is me..I have worked
through working me over the last 2-3 years in multiple ways and I will 
let you know after I review it ..again..

Thanks and I am definitely feeling worse after hearing much of the input.
I am sure I have opened myself for this since I am posting on her. I should 
work on these tasks, NMMNG and in the last 2 days I have read most of 
Love Busters and HNHN... I will just keep looking at myself in the mirror at 
this point ....


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> What about seeing a counselor for marriage counseling? We have not done this yet?
> I do not want to wait a year or 5 or 10 years. Lately I am probably taking me being
> last priority after all else... Do I want to get LAID yes, but more so I want my wife to
> desire connecting with me on a physical level...and have our passion back. I do not
> want to be a room mate.. I want a juicy relationship ..


I have a pretty low view of marriage counseling for the following reasons:

1. people seem to go into it looking for an ally to prove they are right rather than on actually resolving issues

2. there is always one person who is more invested in the counseling than the other

3. it seems particularly ill suited to dead bedroom situations because there is nothing sexy about negotiating around having sex

at best, I think it is a vehicle for splitting up. you can negotiate around splitting up


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Thanks and I am definitely feeling worse after hearing much of the input.


you will feel worse before you feel better

it's a necessary step


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Therapy is hard work. But in your case, it's the only thing that's going to get you to a better place? How often are you going to IC? Be honest.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I am not now going to IC. I was referred to a sex therapist and marriage counselors I have been calling to interview 
over the last 2 weeks. I have gotten session from Sex Therapist/ Phone Conversation with me and wife years back.

When I went before they suggested seeing my wife because they said it sounded like I was the only one working on 
myself and this situation. However I am sure you will have some reason why its my fault.. I guess I am definitely 
being humbled ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> I am not now going to IC. I was referred to a sex therapist and marriage counselors I have been calling to interview
> over the last 2 weeks. I have gotten session from Sex Therapist/ Phone Conversation with me and wife years back.
> 
> When I went before they suggested seeing my wife because they said it sounded like I was the only one working on
> ...


Not having INSTEAD found a personal therapist, when everyone has been telling you since the day you got here that YOU have to change, and wasting your time finding counselors who will tell HER to change? 

Yep, you're right. That IS your fault.

There are three kinds of people who come here. Those who really DO want advice and learn alot and change alot and get good results, those who just want to vent and have no intention of changing anything, and those who want to be coddled and hand-held and told the other person is a meany and everything will be all right once you can get the other person to change with a magic pill.

Which one do you want to be?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> What about seeing a counselor for marriage counseling? We have not done this yet?
> I do not want to wait a year or 5 or 10 years. Lately I am probably taking me being
> last priority after all else... Do I want to get LAID yes, but more so I want my wife to
> desire connecting with me on a physical level...and have our passion back. I do not
> want to be a room mate.. I want a juicy relationship ..


15 pages in and you have understood NOTHING.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Thanks I get loud and clear that you think the issue is me.


The point isn't to decide who's RIGHT.

You can't control other people.

You can control yourself.

That's why we're suggesting you work on the only person whom you CAN control.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I want to be the person that works on changing myself to change the situation. 
I have been on here about a week..I have worked on becoming better in past and I'm the one doing the work mm reading books talking to counselors.

Gosh..being on here a week and I'm being told that I haven't applied anything ..I'm reading these books..if I work 11 hours per day and all..how fast should I be working ?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IDK, how long will it take you to stop asking how to change her?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm done asking...
Was reading nmmng..have actually applied lots of stuff and honestly I have not directly asked my wife ro change ..

Here are things I have applied ...

Stopped waking up wife and daughter 
Let her do grocery shopping ..
Said no to tagging along for something I didn't want to do ...
Handling my day instead of checking in with wife ...
Focused on generating income ..
Not reacting to her opinions and judgements..
There are more things as well...but that's a few over the last week...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good start. 

Keep giving us specifics so we can address them.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Very hard to read this whole thread.

My sex life dried up due to life, fatigue, all the things a busy marriage has.

But W was always my best friend and vice versa. Do you like your wife? Does she like you? Do you care about her needs? Does she care about yours?

Honestly from your long winded, indirect posts, I don't know what your relationship is with your W.

I finally had enough and had a big talk... several actually. It wasn't going well because I saw very little change.

On my own I saw a sex therapist who led me to the real issue which wasn't just sex - I felt neglected. Kind of hard for a guy like me to take - I'm the opposite of needy.

Read HNHN and loved it. Unlike our resident Eeyore, John, I felt empowered by the book. Because it validated my needs and explained men's needs from an emotional standpoint that women understand. And it points out the disconnect with women - sex just isn't a priority but financial security, emotional connection, etc are.

I read sections with her and was emphatic. People here will say I disrupted the relationship - well she was completely happy with the status quo but I wasn't. It needed disruption.

We got through it. I was brutally honest about my need for daily sex and all the porn. 

I think she was locked and didn't know how to change. She needed my assertive direction and to understand this was my deal breaker. That I loved her but would not live a sexless life.

You are indirect and needy and whiney. Decide who you are, what you want, and what your limits are. Show her your needs in HNHN and ask for hers. Then simple ask how she intends to meet your needs. Directly. Like as in "this d1ck isn't going to suck itself" (yes I have said that when I wanted her to get busy ). But I can say that because I lead and because I am open to meeting her needs too.

It's really quite simple. Know each other. Be honest. Talk. No covert contracts. No this for that. No whining. No feeling bad for having a need. Just put it out there and make it happen.

If it won't happen - after you've done this - then let her know the consequences are your marriage ends.

Then change will come. One way or another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Change will come. Not necessarily with the person you're currently in. I agree.

My lack of faith in DIY books is not because of my Eeyore thought patterns but because I'm a firm believer that if one needs a book to tell them what they or their spouse need, the battle is already lost for the most part.

It could be that the audience for DIY books is new, doe eyed brides and such. In that case you could see improvement because they have a lifetime to think about and few preconceived notions. In a 30 year marriage it is not the case, there's too many things that can't be changed.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Moving forward I will try to be clear and concise on my communication and thoroughness here. I could include details of emails from the therapist/coaches and my wife however that may be sharing too
much on this public forum.

Perhaps our sex life is kind of dried up for several reasons. There have been multiple factors that my wife has been through that could impact your libido and your desire to have sex. My wife when she had our daughter 7 years ago had a fibroid and had to get that removed through because it was kind of a growth that was bothering her. When our daughter was born she also had a C section, so it was operation 7 years ago, then followed by fibroid operation 2 Years after that followed by her parents passing away two years after that as well as another operation. Because she is 49 perhaps she is going through Perio-Menopause because of her missing periods for months at a time and not knowing what is going on. IN addition during not having periods she used to have some pains that she could not explain.
2-3 years ago we decided to start our own business vs. me working for 
other companies. I feel this has definitely impacted our situation because now we work together and because my wife is a get done 
type person she will stay up late at night working on work because 
no one is bothering her and she feels as if she can get stuff done.
However lately over the last few months that energy has switched to 
watching TV from 8 PM - 10 PM almost every night to unplug folllowed
by sleep. So its possible that my wife perhaps could have some health issues that are kind of hidden as she went to a naturopathic doctor, got a routine check up but no endocrinal or hormone blood test as recommended before. She was getting some herbs, remedies for adrenal glands and thyroid from the ND.

I love my wife and she likes me. As far as caring about her needs.
When she needed something in the past I did care about her needs. Perhaps I need to get more clear about what needs she has from me to do for her ...I know she is aware of my needs yet I have not asked her if she cared about my needs because the last few times she has explained to me that you should not depend on someone else to make you happy.. That her giving me attention and sex should not be the basis of me being happy. She also stated in her perception that if 
if I was just happy all of the time and fun that perhaps she would 
want to have sex more often.

Hopefully this defines the relationship with my wife. We do care about each other very much... We actually talk a lot about life and work except we do not talk about sex and our needs..I am assuming that talking about your needs may come off needy - perhaps not..perhaps I am avoiding that because of all the past talks that did not seem to go far from it being my responsibility and me being the cause of the situation.

We had a talk however I mainly listened to her for hours on if she was carefree and I was was responsible for things and she did not have to worry about any of her responsibilities that she could be carefree and think more about sex and spending time.. My wife wrote a long letter, stating she has to worry about daughter, paying bills and a laundry list 
saying that there was nowhere in life she can be carefree....

I talked to a sex therapist a few times. Perhaps i need to see someone on my own. When I went last time though when me and my wife got in an argument she made it as if I was weird because I am the one that had to speak with a sex therapist.

I am reading HNHN and perhaps I just put in the plan that we both read it together to gain some insights into relationships and mens and womens needs.

Perhaps I need to be direct more with her..I have never been direct in a way like...my **** is not going to suck itself. I always try and read her situation and get her mind into that arena of intimacy yet that has not worked well for me either. I am re-reading NMMNG. However there has never been a time I have asked my wife for oral sex, or a blow job, or if she wants me to give her oral..I have said while laying in bed that I really want you, whispered in her ear I want her, or i want to have sex with you...based on the past i always tread lightly.
Maybe that is part of the issue, is me thinking so much about what she thinks.

Perhaps I should try that to see if that is more effective. She may think I am weird and have judgements on me just being that direct and from the past she may think I am weird - but perhaps after I do the work from NMMNG and HNHN I should be more direct.

Honestly I do want to work on me, after reading NMMNG, I have been that NICE GUY, I have done lots for her expecting her to fulfill my needs and it has not worked. It makes me feel trapped and hurt that I can not get out of this spot. I feel like a lion trapped in a small cage and I do not know where to get the key and lately its been really getting to me, what gets me the most is the needs I do have are not being met and or talked about on any level...I have started this past week removing myself from doing soooo much. I am have been identifying that I am the one that has set most of this up because it worked for me for other things in life like meeting people, making friends, doing business and yet I am not being sexually fulfilled on any level ..and I am a healthy good looking guy - except for the labyrinth of a maze I have built around me having my sexual needs met...

I miss being wanted.. and its painful. I want to create fun experiences with my wife and do things I have never done before in life and sexually I want to grow. Perhaps I have too many expectations.

Appreciate your post. for others I am just responding to his question.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just a theory - to what extent is her perception of your financial situation accurate?

So far her behavior has "grand depression" written all over. So, something is stressing her. If you're 49 and have a young child (7?) that means you decided late to have her. Why did you not have children earlier?

How is she as a parent? Other than the screaming part...

Depression and social isolation aren't going to solve themselves. Or with a naturopath. If she's not going to agree with a full psych evaluation then start luggage shopping. To me it sounds she's not convinced she needs help...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> I am not now going to IC. I was referred to a sex therapist and marriage counselors I have been calling to interview
> over the last 2 weeks. I have gotten session from Sex Therapist/ Phone Conversation with me and wife years back.
> 
> When I went before they suggested seeing my wife because they said it sounded like I was the only one working on
> ...


take a step back from assigning blame. 

you probably are the only one who is interested in working on the situation.

the reason for this is that, for your wife, there is no situation. she is not attracted to you and that is that. 

For her, it is probably like a light switch-- it is either "on" or "off."

there is no middle position, so there is nothing to work on.

to the extent anything is your fault, it is your failure to see and accept this binary dynamic. 

but you don't need to beat yourself up over this. it takes time to accept something like this which you really don't want to accept. 

you just can't allow what you want to cloud your perception of what actually is.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> I want to be the person that works on changing myself to change the situation.
> I have been on here about a week..I have worked on becoming better in past and I'm the one doing the work mm reading books talking to counselors.
> 
> Gosh..being on here a week and I'm being told that I haven't applied anything ..I'm reading these books..if I work 11 hours per day and all..how fast should I be working ?


this is a lot to take in and it is, at least initially, a very disappointing thing to realize that the thing you want most you need to let go of.

I am not trying to beat you up when I say that your approach is totally wrong.

You should not be looking to change yourself in order to "change the situation."

You should be looking inward to understand who you really are and who you really want to be APART from whatever you've tied up in your wife.

In the midst of this spiral, you have probably tied up way too much of your self worth in what your wife thinks of you.

You need to seize that back for yourself and live for YOURSELF, not her.

Give up on the idea that anything you will do will get her back. She is GONE.

You know how people who have a terminal illness say they never really started living until they knew they were going to die? You need to adopt a bit of that mindset.

You have not really been living for yourself. You have been trying to jump through the right hoop and it has been a total failure.

Own that and move on. You will be shocked at how much happier you can be once you do this.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> I'm done asking...
> Was reading nmmng..have actually applied lots of stuff and honestly I have not directly asked my wife ro change ..
> 
> Here are things I have applied ...
> ...


this is very good. this will all start to feel more and more natural the more you do it.

the other ingredient is that you need to have fun. do things that are fun for you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> I feel like a lion trapped in a small cage and I do not know where to get the key and lately its been really getting to me, what gets me the most is the needs I do have are not being met and or talked about on any level...
> 
> I miss being wanted.. and its painful. I want to create fun experiences with my wife and do things I have never done before in life and sexually I want to grow. Perhaps I have too many expectations.


this is the meat of your long post.

I am sure you do feel trapped, but you absolutely have the key. 

You can leave at ANY time you want. You must realize this. This is reality. You don't have to deal with this for one more day if you don't want to. So every day you do deal with it, you have chosen it. Why?

You miss being wanted. You want your wife to want you. But you must accept that you can't make her want you. 

You CAN find a situation where you WILL feel wanted by a woman again. You could do that easily. You probably meet women every day who would be very interested in having this with you. But your wife doesn't want that right now. Again, reality.

Give yourself the gift of realizing that you don't need your wife. This desire you have could be fulfilled by millions of other women.

To the extent you stick around for one more day, allow yourself to realize that you have proven to yourself that you did not need her to desire you that day. You were still fine even though she didn't.

If you weren't fine, you could've easily split and found another woman to fulfill that desire.

You always have that key sitting right in your pocket.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Unlike our resident Eeyore, John


Love that!

Change will come if your wife is like TH's.

It won't if your wife is like John's.

It all depends on whether or not your wife loves you and is genuinely interested in your happiness.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Love that!
> 
> Change will come if your wife is like TH's.
> 
> ...


and the cool thing is you will be fine either way


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Perhaps she is concerned and she is trying to figure it out. The other night she said she 
is trying to figure out what is going on ...I guess I need to ask for direct details? Last
time I suggested I get my own place she said she wanted to work on us.. That she does 
love me and she knows we car about each other...


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Perhaps she is concerned and she is trying to figure it out. The other night she said she
> is trying to figure out what is going on ...I guess I need to ask for direct details? Last
> time I suggested I get my own place she said she wanted to work on us.. That she does
> love me and she knows we car about each other...


my advice is don't press her. she is used to you chasing her. don't chase.

this means let her talk to you, but don't press her for details. just listen. don't negotiate.

if she wants to be closer to you, she knows how to do that and will do it on her own.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Actions speak louder than words... at least she's willing to acknowledge that there are some issues. 

My wife lives in la la land where it's sunny and 74F year round...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Love that!
> 
> Change will come if your wife is like TH's.
> 
> ...


In other words, changing yourself in the hope of changing your current wife is a bit long on the odds. 

Eeyore approves.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> I have not asked her if she cared about my needs because the last few times she has explained to me that you should not depend on someone else to make you happy.


She is right. That's what we've been telling you. YOU need to find yourself, love yourself, trust yourself. That's what therapy is for.



sunchild15 said:


> That her giving me attention and sex should not be the basis of me being happy.


She is right. That is where your boundaries and consequences come in. Meaning, a psychologically healthy guy (meaning one who loves himself and values himself) would not put up with a sexless marriage for long before stating so and letting her know he won't be around for long. In other words, _teaching _her to value him.



sunchild15 said:


> She also stated in her perception that if if I was just happy all of the time and fun that perhaps she would want to have sex more often.


Again, true. Women HATE whiny, morose men. Just like men hate negative, critical women. Why would she want to have sex with Eeyore? Again, that's what therapy is for - for you to learn to be ok and happy, no matter WHAT she does or doesn't do.



sunchild15 said:


> I am assuming that talking about your needs may come off needy - perhaps not..perhaps I am avoiding that because of all the past talks that did not seem to go far from it being my responsibility and me being the cause of the situation.


And a Non Nice Guy wouldn't have let that happen, not without standing up for himself. 



sunchild15 said:


> We had a talk however I mainly listened to her for hours on if she was carefree and I was was responsible for things and she did not have to worry about any of her responsibilities that she could be carefree and think more about sex and spending time.


First, Nice Guys let their wives rip on them for hours; Non Nice Guys call it quits after half an hour and say when you're ready to discuss fairly, we'll talk again.



sunchild15 said:


> My wife wrote a long letter, stating she has to worry about daughter, paying bills and a laundry list saying that there was nowhere in life she can be carefree....


This is THE most common complaint that women have. It's certainly mine. Women never get to turn off. They are always 'responsible' for something. How often do you give her $50 and tell her to go get a pedicure or something, that you'll take care of everything?



sunchild15 said:


> Perhaps I need to be direct more with her..I have never been direct in a way like...my **** is not going to suck itself. I always try and read her situation and get her mind into that arena of intimacy yet that has not worked well for me either.


You don't need to be so crude, but you DO need to make it clear you are NOT happy and you won't stay married if this persists.



sunchild15 said:


> I am re-reading NMMNG. However there has never been a time I have asked my wife for oral sex, or a blow job, or if she wants me to give her oral..I have said while laying in bed that I really want you, whispered in her ear I want her, or i want to have sex with you...based on the past i always tread lightly. Maybe that is part of the issue, is me thinking so much about what she thinks.


Women don't like it when men ASK for sex. You may have thought you were being sexy but she probably just saw it as weak. Always treading lightly...ticks women off. Women want to be swept off their feet, not begged.



sunchild15 said:


> Honestly I do want to work on me, after reading NMMNG, I have been that NICE GUY, I have done lots for her expecting her to fulfill my needs and it has not worked. It makes me feel trapped and hurt that I can not get out of this spot. I feel like a lion trapped in a small cage and I do not know where to get the key and lately its been really getting to me, what gets me the most is the needs I do have are not being met and or talked about on any level...I have started this past week removing myself from doing soooo much. I am have been identifying that I am the one that has set most of this up because it worked for me for other things in life like meeting people, making friends, doing business and yet I am not being sexually fulfilled on any level ..and I am a healthy good looking guy - except for the labyrinth of a maze I have built around me having my sexual needs met...
> 
> I miss being wanted.. and its painful. I want to create fun experiences with my wife and do things I have never done before in life and sexually I want to grow. Perhaps I have too many expectations.


All of this is 100% Nice Guy and if you take the book seriously, DO the work, go to their forum and talk to other Nice Guys working their way out of it, AND - most importantly - start going to a therapist specifically to work on your self esteem, you can get past this. You can have a happy life with her (or with someone else if she refuses to get it). And all this doubt and fear will go away, once you start learning to value yourself.

But I'm really glad you've finally started tearing down the wall you've built up to avoid looking at yourself. You're taking the first step toward happiness.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Your underlying assumption is incorrect... you're applying population information to an individual. Maybe 99% of women dislike Eeyore sex, but the individual in question dislikes sex, period, whether with Eeyore or with Pooh... 

You've had ample evidence to that effect yet you continue to pass along the same message. 

Self esteem has little to do with it, by the way. I have the self esteem of Rush Limbaugh and that, too, is not a fairy dust that transfers magically across the bedsheets.

Carry on...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Your underlying assumption is incorrect... you're applying population information to an individual. Maybe 99% of women dislike Eeyore sex, but the individual in question dislikes sex, period, whether with Eeyore or with Pooh...
> 
> You've had ample evidence to that effect yet you continue to pass along the same message.
> 
> ...


this is delusional man.

the typical woman in a dead bedroom marriage is not ice cold to men in general. just her husband.

if you think the typical frigid wife would be frigid once she is out dating again, you are in denial. 

these women go nuts as soon as they have an opportunity to be with a guy they actually want.

self esteem has everything to do with it. that is why it is a death spiral. rejection damages self esteem which leads to further rejection.

not to mention the very obvious fact that simply by staying in one of these relationships is a daily demonstration of lack of confidence and self esteem.

you need to have black belt level confidence to simply keep your head above water in this scenario. you are operating from a structural deficit.

this is why the overwhelming strategy in these situations is to leave.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hardly delusional.

You assume a baseline sexuality with desire gone because of lethargic Eeyore. For a professional woman that is attractive and earns top dollar, being around powerful males all day, wouldn't you think she'd either dump Eeyore in a hurry or have more PA's than our former president?

As for self confidence and esteem, you forget the end goal part. Once her money's no longer an issue, we are done. And the grief she gets by putting up with said Eeyore and "paying for his damned children to travel to Europe" far exceeds any benefits she may be getting.

How did JLD put it? The man who is strong thru the storm of her emotions and some other unicorny stuff... I mean, dude, you demonstrate to the wench that she's just a paycheck in the grand scheme of things. And that you put your kids first. 

Delusion is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, without understanding why things work the way they do. Not one person has suggested a full medical / psych evaluation without regard to intimacy but as a condition marriage. Except this old guy who looks like Bilbo Baggins that is...

Carry on...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

/* thanks for editing */

Some of us do have black belt level confidence... because we've seen worse, and we know that some middle aged chick who don't put out isn't going to impact our rankings in any regard. 

Dump her and you'll be 90% of what you were. As you describe her she'll be 20%-30%, let's hope she can keep her head above water then.

All while being a really Nice Guy of course.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

if you're in this situation, you need to enjoy small victories in the confidence department.

say you get a little smile from the cashier at the grocery store. that's a small victory. 

the girl at the coffee shop who is ringing you up announces for no reason that she's almost done work. small victory.

just the knowledge that you CAN if you really want to allows you to laugh off the lack of interest at home.

if you are in a funk, you probably don't even notice these little things happening.

allowing yourself to notice them again can help counteract the tunnel vision.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Hardly delusional.
> 
> You assume a baseline sexuality with desire gone because of lethargic Eeyore. For a professional woman that is attractive and earns top dollar, being around powerful males all day, wouldn't you think she'd either dump Eeyore in a hurry or have more PA's than our former president?
> 
> ...


decent women don't cheat even if they are very unhappy in their marriage.

put wifey in an environment where there are no longer any negative consequences for being h-rny and watch what she does.

I know this isn't a fun thing to think about, but what is more likely: she doesn't like men at all or just you?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Doesn't like people in general... 

Which, my clairvoyant powers say, is pretty much OPs wife. Am I wrong?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> /* thanks for editing */
> 
> Some of us do have black belt level confidence... because we've seen worse, and we know that some middle aged chick who don't put out isn't going to impact our rankings in any regard.


I just don't believe it doesn't affect your confidence in any way.

if you can gain distance from the situation (even if just mentally), then you can lessen the impact. but it is something to be overcome in any event.

ranking is not super relevant. as I've said before, it's a binary yes/no kind of thing. 

if you're in the "no" category, your objective ranking is meaningless as far as that relationship is concerned.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Doesn't like people in general...
> 
> Which, my clairvoyant powers say, is pretty much OPs wife. Am I wrong?


it's possible that your wife is a unique case, but it seems pretty remarkable that this would happen just to you, no?

alternatively, your wife is in a negative marriage and is unhappy generally so she presents as disliking everyone.

take her out of this situation and put her into "Eat, Pray, Love" mode and do you think she'd still be such a sourpuss?

I'm not trying to needle you, by the way, just trying to point out that your situation might be very typical and that, as a result, you don't need to feel so bad about it. there's nothing uniquely bad about you, in other words


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

How old are you Anon1111?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

late 30s


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Once HE changes, she will have no choice but to change in response.


Why? If one person changes, why does the other one have to? If you stop swimming, the river just carries on the same way it did.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> late 30s


I have 20 years on you, my friend. Twenty years and as many mental logbooks filled with my experiences of humanity.

I'll write a longer response tonight, but let me tell you that people are far more fvcked up than we think they are. And the older we get, the worse it gets. 

I used to have faith in humanity, when I was your age. By mid 40's things became a bit more transparent. By age 50... Armageddon couldn't come fast enough.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> late 30s


How did I know? :smile2:

Come back in 15 years and let us know how things are going. 

I'd humbly suggest that menopause for instance can have a huge impact on both libido, general mental state and the actual physiology of sex for some, as in well under half but > 2% of women. In these cases (and others) your one size fits all explanation is invalid.

And FWIW before someone responds, hormone replacement is not always an option...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

well in 15 yrs there will be sex bots so none of this will matter


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

anonmd said:


> How did I know? :smile2:
> 
> Come back in 15 years and let us know how things are going.
> 
> ...


I actually really appreciate this info as it lets me know it can get worse!

F- that!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Ahhhh but by the same token it can get better. Mature adults can be very good in bed. Menopause means not having to worry about pregnancy, periods, etc. maturity can mean less focus on children and career and more available time to reconnect. And time can provide context, calmness, and peace in some ways. Even illness can bring certainty and free up the mind to focus on the present.

Every age of life can be exploited to create happiness.

And marriage is not a life sentence - you can unlock the door and leave at any time and free yourself to start fresh.

There is no need to dread the future - in general. Save your dread for very specific things happening in the present 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> not to mention the very obvious fact that simply by staying in one of these relationships is a daily demonstration of lack of confidence and self esteem.


This needs to be posted somewhere for all to see.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> This needs to be posted somewhere for all to see.


Considering the sacrifice my parents did to send me to America, financially and emotionally, I think putting up with the Wicked Witch of Paducah for a few years is not even close.

Next year I'll have one kid starting her PhD and another med school. Both got a heck of an education partially due to WWofP. 

To me, it was worth it. In the 20's, my grandfather came to America and worked on the railroad for a few years. In Illinois, not far from here actually. He returned, not having seen his family for 4-5 years. He had enough to marry off a couple daughters, build an awesome house (bombed by the Jerries in WW2), and marry off his sister as he was the only brother. His nickname in the village was "Congressman"😂

We have it too easy. OP is not me and his kid is a lot younger, so there's more incentive to solve the issue. But he needs to know that some problems are not solvable.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Why? If one person changes, why does the other one have to? If you stop swimming, the river just carries on the same way it did.


Because he will no longer be doing the same things he was doing before. OP is already starting this. He's not making her breakfast anymore, right, as part of his own growth away from a Nice Guy? So her life is changing - she'll either go hungry or start making her own breakfast. 

In the book The Dance Of Anger, which teaches one how to stop being a Giver, the spouse of the person reading the book and changing is described as typically wanting things to go back to 'normal'. They do what the author calls "Change back! behavior," where they try to get the changing person to change back. But if the changing person ignores them, they'll eventually have no choice but to adapt to the new person.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Darwin would be rolling in his grave... how do you evolve from Cheerios into sex?

If she was concerned that the Cheerios might go dry, she would have been a bit more agreeable in the intimacy department... 

Worth a try, still. It's not like it can get worse.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> And marriage is not a life sentence - you can unlock the door and leave at any time and free yourself to start fresh.


Not entirely true for couples with substantially disparate incomes. You can of course leave at any time, but not necessarily "start fresh". Which is why HDs who are the higher earner would be well advised to leave sooner rather than later. Cuts down both the amount owed and the duration of paying for one's freedom.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

john117 said:


> Considering the sacrifice my parents did to send me to America, financially and emotionally, I think putting up with the Wicked Witch of Paducah for a few years is not even close.
> 
> Next year I'll have one kid starting her PhD and another med school. Both got a heck of an education partially due to WWofP.
> 
> ...


Didn't mean that in your case.

I'm on your side!

If I get a terminal disease, I'm holding on until you drop the hammer.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

My wife wrote a long letter, stating she has to worry about daughter, paying bills and a laundry list saying that there was nowhere in life she can be carefree....

RESPONSE To: 

This is THE most common complaint that women have. It's certainly mine. Women never get to turn off. They are always 'responsible' for something. How often do you give her $50 and tell her to go get a pedicure or something, that you'll take care of everything?

My wife has free reign of the money. I have done this, my wife has gone to get a $200 massage. Yes I do this I take daughter and go to beach, wife sleeps or has time to herself, I also let her go to Yoga and Gym for a few hour again - wife does not have to take care of anything and has free time.
I have also told her to take the day to herself and she does sometimes but very much she ends up doing busy work. She also gets her hair colored sometimes on Saturday or to appointment for hair removal laser... and whatever she needs.. She buys herself stuff online, clothes make up etc


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, then, we know that she doesn't really mean it when she says that, right? So what does a Non Nice Guy do when the wife pulls that?

He calls her out on it.

"Hey, if you're too stressed out, that's your fault. You have free reign over what you do with your time. So that excuse doesn't fly anymore."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Ok, then, we know that she doesn't really mean it when she says that, right? So what does a Non Nice Guy do when the wife pulls that?
> 
> He calls her out on it.
> 
> "Hey, if you're too stressed out, that's your fault. You have free reign over what you do with your time. So that excuse doesn't fly anymore."


She will simply blame OP and / or their financial situation for her stress... case closed.

A new set of excuses will be conjured as needed. Probably health related.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

John: And that is when the healthy guy leaves. Or accepts that the lack of sex is his own fault for choosing to stay.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> John: And that is when the healthy guy leaves. Or accepts that the lack of sex is his own fault for choosing to stay.


You missed the part about goals more important than sex, tho.

If I didn't have college bills (mostly ending May 2017) that require Trump level funding, and if I didn't live in a state where, as the first lawyer I consulted put it, "it would take for the mother to be Susan Smith for the father to "get custody", and if this didn't become an issue till 2009-2010 at which time my company laid off 40% of the staff (I survived), then, yea, the healthy guy should leave.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Considering the sacrifice my parents did to send me to America, financially and emotionally, I think putting up with the Wicked Witch of Paducah for a few years is not even close....
> 
> We have it too easy. OP is not me and his kid is a lot younger, so there's more incentive to solve the issue. But he needs to know that some problems are not solvable.


I agree with this.

you can reasonably make a calculation that dealing with an imperfect marriage (or any other hardship) is worth it for the benefit of the kids.

the problem is keeping your eye on this ball and recognizing that every day you are making this choice.

it is very easy to fall into victim mode in this circumstance and to feel like it is "happening to you."

It's not. You're choosing it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

I think the idea here is to call her out on it just to point out that you're not buying it anymore.

Then, don't talk about it. Don't react to it.

Don't respond, Don't try to come up with some way to "ease her burden". Don't try to solve the issue for her.

Go along on your merry way doing whatever you feel like doing for yourself.

If she questions your new behavior (assuming that you can keep it up), just tell her that you've decided that you need to focus more on your own needs for a change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> you can reasonably make a calculation that dealing with an imperfect marriage (or any other hardship) is worth it for the benefit of the kids.
> 
> ...


I was in victim mode till I came to TAM and realized that sexual dysfunction is a lot more widespread. Up to that point I only had one case where my buddy simply engaged in an open affair once his wife "went on a quarterly plan" 😂

TAM helped me realize that some (many) such cases aren't worth the effort for the current spouse, but are worth the effort for oneself. 

As we count down the clock to May 2017 I'm a lot more at peace with myself. I have detached quite well, even to my wife's delight 😂

OP would do well to assess what paths are available to him and what the odds of each path are. MinMax is your friend.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Darwin would be rolling in his grave... how do you evolve from Cheerios into sex?
> 
> If she was concerned that the Cheerios might go dry, she would have been a bit more agreeable in the intimacy department...
> 
> Worth a try, still. It's not like it can get worse.


yes, there is a limit to how much you can influence another's behavior.

if you don't accept this you will be frustrated in the end

this is why I think it is best to abandon all goals of influencing your spouse and just do what you want


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I've found the following statement to be helpful from time to time as I leave the house to pursue my own interests "Sweety, it is a two way street".


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Because he will no longer be doing the same things he was doing before. OP is already starting this. He's not making her breakfast anymore, right, as part of his own growth away from a Nice Guy? So her life is changing - she'll either go hungry or start making her own breakfast.
> 
> In the book The Dance Of Anger, which teaches one how to stop being a Giver, the spouse of the person reading the book and changing is described as typically wanting things to go back to 'normal'. They do what the author calls "Change back! behavior," where they try to get the changing person to change back. But if the changing person ignores them, they'll eventually have no choice but to adapt to the new person.


There's a commonly used phrase in my job "This change has no impact on the outcome and/or integrity of the study."

There's a change, you can observe and document a change, but that change doesn't actually alter how anything behaves or works.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> I only had one case where my buddy simply engaged in an open affair once his wife "went on a quarterly plan" 😂


I'm surprised you and many others haven't done the same.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> I'm surprised you and many others haven't done the same.



I'm not. My immediate circle has very few unattached women. None I'm interested in. I'm not interested in FWB because the community is rather small... And, in general, I don't care anymore. 

In 2-3 years when the dust settles I'll be near 60. I see it like college partying. I had my fun, now let's get serious. 

If I was 40, maybe 45... Different story.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm reading no more mr nice guy through and reflecting on my own behavior..it seems lately every single night me and my wife watch TV or movies ..

I get up at 5 am and when I leave for work my wife is still sleeping and I work from that time until 6 pm or 7 pm get dinner and it seems to fall into pattern of wife and I watching tv..lately I feel so bored of the same tv...until 10 or 1030 pm..them to bed where then she may start talking about work my day or life never sex perhaps a hand on me as she goes to sleep...

Sometimes I may have to get up early and I go lay down and she watches tv on her own until 11 pm..

I just don't know how to act..I feel kind of hurt that the little time we do have together it's taken by tv...and I don't feel like getting into argument or anything at 11 pm...

Do I express how I feel..or act as if nothing is wrong ...it's funny to me because she will comment if I come home late as if she missed me ..them when I am around sure we sit together and all but inside I'm like HELOO.....do I say what I feel or be strong and just go to sleep is there a way to get out of this pattern...

As I read the nmmng
.there is a second date rule..yet I'm like wow if we were dating and every date in watched tv..showed no affection and ignored her when we were in 20 and 30s...I feel we probably wouldn't be dating..

So what do I do..? Go in the other room and go to sleep...sit next her and just keep killing time...go out on my own...or have a talk the next day on phone from work and express that I'm feeling as if the behavior of us towards each other is there as friends yet when it comes to our time making time for a date or something physically close she doesn't seem to making much priority of it and this is not working for me at all. We need to figure out a solution because it's getting to me...and time is going by..

What's best way to approach ?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> What's best way to approach ?


Do the breaking free exercises. Stop spending time with her doing things you do not find interesting. Spend more time with male friends. You should be going out most weeknights with guys. Join a bowling league. Get a poker night. Become a regular at a local bar. You don't even have to drink alcohol. Just order a diet soda and watch sports on tv with guys. On the weekends, play golf and then go to a concert with your buddies.

Eventually your wife will either complain that she never sees you, or she won't. If she complains, THEN you put sex on the table. If she doesn't complain, you have verified that this marriage will never be what you want.

Whatever you do, do not sit there docile and compliant and watch tv with your wife 3 or 4 hours a night if the evening never ends with sex. Heck, I got a reaction from H2 just by going into the other room and playing computer games instead of sitting with her watching tv. Of course, when I pushed the issue and asked for sex to be part of the joint activities, she refused. So now I am quite skilled at a number of computer games. But at least you get an answer. Even if it isn't always the answer you desired.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

If you keep doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same result.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hold is exactly right. You don't just sit there and play out her fantasy of a man who's just there for her convenience, without the sex. You go out and DO things with friends, join leagues, work out. Let her see you joining life again.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Hold is exactly right. You don't just sit there and play out her fantasy of a man who's just there for her convenience, without the sex. You go out and DO things with friends, join leagues, work out. Let her see you joining life again.


And depending on what's going on in her head she will either snap out of it, ignore it, dig deeper, or turn to angry fits. 

Her reaction will be quite a piece of information in itself. it's a good strategy regardless of outcome.


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## 41362 (Dec 14, 2012)

Man, you have to break the cycle. Even if it means going in another room to listen to a ballgame.

I'm guessing she picks the shows, too. I cede control of the main TV in my house at night and do what I want to do. I simply can't watch House Hunters, Rehab Addict, Hotel Impossible, etc...a tiny bit of my soul dies every time.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> So what do I do..? Go in the other room and go to sleep


Only if you're tired



sunchild15 said:


> go out on my own


That's a good idea



sunchild15 said:


> ..or have a talk the next day on phone from work and express that I'm feeling as if the behavior of us towards each other is there as friends yet when it comes to our time making time for a date or something physically close she doesn't seem to making much priority of it and this is not working for me at all.


*
NO! NO! NO! For God's sake, not this!*

This kind of talk is what's making me think that you're not listening.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> *
> NO! NO! NO! For God's sake, not this!*
> 
> This kind of talk is what's making me think that you're not listening.


Perhaps he is not. 50 life time posts, all in this thread.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> So what do I do..? Go in the other room and go to sleep...sit next her and just keep killing time...go out on my own...or have a talk the next day on phone from work and express that I'm feeling as if the behavior of us towards each other is there as friends yet when it comes to our time making time for a date or something physically close she doesn't seem to making much priority of it and this is not working for me at all. We need to figure out a solution because it's getting to me...and time is going by..
> 
> What's best way to approach ?


again, you're not approaching. she already knows you really, really want her. you don't need to chase her MORE.

you just do what you want to do. 

if you don't really want to watch TV-- if TV is just a means of trying to get with her-- you stop doing it. on the other hand, if she happens to be watching something you're interested in, then there is nothing wrong with watching it. 

in other words, it's not about watching vs not watching tv, it's about WHY are you watching.

you should be doing stuff that does not depend on her to have fun. this may mean going out of the house, or it may mean staying home but creating your own little pocket of fun.

for example, I rarely go out alone on weeknights (too tough to coordinate and I am just lazy after working all day).

but when I am at home, I am never just orbiting my wife.

I can be sitting in the same room as her, but I am playing my guitar.

I will go in the other room and do yoga or go in the basement and lift weights.

I am never just sitting there expecting her to entertain me or fulfill me. I am making my own enjoyment.

The most important thing you can do is to adopt this mindset. If you do that, the actual thing you do doesn't really matter.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> My wife wrote a long letter, stating she has to worry about daughter, paying bills and a laundry list saying that there was nowhere in life she can be carefree....
> 
> RESPONSE To:
> 
> ...


Here's the thing Sun, EVERYBODY believes that their life is busy. My 87-year-old mother who sleeps 12 hours a night and then naps for two more hours in the afternoon - with no responsibilities except for writing two checks each month (from an overflowing bank account) - thinks that she's busy. Kids in college taking a half-time course load believe they are busy. 

Our perceptions of how busy we are depend in part on what we're accustomed to. If you description of your situation is accurate, you have taken on more and more responsibilities, trying to ease her load so that you can get intimate. In NMMNG guy terms, this is called a COVERT CONTRACT. And you appear to be the king of covert contracts, deals that you make with yourself in which you think that providing some type of service or support will magically get your partner to behave in the manner you desire. 

Your covert contracts are not working. First, you have to decide your boundary. It's OK to say "I expect to have enthusiastic relations with my partner at least once a week" - if that is indeed what you want to have happen. Then, you have to set an acceptable consequence for what happens when your boundary is crossed. Are you willing to divorce if you don't get what you want? Will you spend less time with her? What is the consequence you can set that you can/will enforce when your boundary is crossed?

She doesn't have to have sex with you. You don't have to have sex with her. But you can tell her that you will be in a passionate relationship one year from now. You prefer that it would be with her, but whether that happens will be her decision.

Sex is not something that we only do when everything else is in order. It's part of the journey. It's not unreasonable for you to ask her to re-evaluate her priorities. Sounds like you make most of the money and do the lion's share of the house responsibilities. I wonder why she is feeling all this stress and yet you are able to operate with some sense of work-life balance.

Something is off here. If your description of your lifestyle is correct, you should expect change. But you cannot expect change unless you clearly state your needs and the consequences that will occur if those needs are not met. Your needs are not unreasonable. But it is not reasonable to not communicate directly and fairly with her. From there, she sets her own priorities. 

She's a big girl. She can make her own choices. Your job is to clearly communicate the choices she must evaluate when weighing the pluses and minuses of being in a relationship with you. You are the prize. If she needs something to worry about, let her worry about what she needs to do to make her partner happy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I realize this is a major - perhaps life changing (marriage ending) type conversation but it's also a completely honest one.

Agree with her. Full stop. Agree you are responsible for your own happiness and then minimize your interactions with her. Find a hobby or two that keeps you out of the house. Do NOT minimize your interactions with your child. Do the dad thing and do it well. 

Be friendly and polite to wife - in as few words as possible. 

And be playful with her - when she starts grinding you about de prioritizing her. 

Look around the room - and in a confused tone ask: Where did she go? The woman who was just recently telling me we are BOTH responsible for her own happiness? She looked a lot like you. Where is she?

And then shut up. Smile, nod, shrug but don't say anything else. 

Do not get angry - and I guarantee she will try hard to make you angry. Just stay loose. That is purely an emotional alpha move. An attempt to gain control of you, by gaining control of your emotions.

The calmer you remain - the stronger will be her desire to tear off your clothes.






Personal said:


> I'm surprised you and many others haven't done the same.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You had me going till the last paragraph there, MEM. The kind of woman we are talking about is highly likely to happily continue the status quo ad infinitum... 

She may offer token starfish sex once or twice but if you're talking paradigm shift, I have some doubts. It will really depend upon how "self sustaining happy" she is, and whether a lot of Nice things he does are necessary as well as nice.

The value of the suggestion is primarily to assess her reaction - short and long term - than anything else. 

In six months or a year she may have an epiphany but by then I'm not sure it's worth fixing. She also may start nagging and escalate the conflict, in which case communication breaks down and again its curtains.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> I'm not. My immediate circle has very few unattached women. None I'm interested in. I'm not interested in FWB because the community is rather small... *And, in general, I don't care anymore.*
> 
> In 2-3 years when the dust settles I'll be near 60. I see it like college partying. I had my fun, now let's get serious.
> 
> If I was 40, maybe 45... Different story.


If you don't care for sex why are you intending to divorce your wife?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I've mentioned the reason a bunch of times in the past. There's a fundamental difference in philosophy regarding living arrangements post retirement, as well as my well founded personal concern that in the event i need any kind of longer term care I'm fvcked. 

Simple stuff. All I want is the Mini fueled up and an apartment in a big city, with the rest going to travel and such. She has a retirement McMansion in the middle of nowhere in mind, and no travel since there won't be much left, or energy for that matter. 

As for long term care, her father pretty much left her mother croak from treatable heart disease at 70 while he, at 80, got top of the line care... My personal experiences if I'm sick have been less than positive so...

Sex is simply the telltale light in the dashboard.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@john117 As you describe your situation, you remind me in some ways of a couple (parents of my wife's friend) I have known for 20 years. Who are very wealthy (generational gentrified family money, plus their own), very educated, well travelled, with 2x children who have multiple tertiary qualifications, that are married and loathe each other.

Unfortunately the wife (who is a professor) is a usually functional alcoholic, that suffers from (inflict upon others) a mental illness which also runs in the family.

Like you they have enjoyed a mostly sexless marriage for a long time, like you the husband accepts the status quo and presses on largely living his own albeit celibate life under the same expansive ceilings. Unlike you though, the wife has sex with whomever she likes, whenever she likes, as she pleases and although she doesn't flaunt it as such she also doesn't hide it either.

It's funny when you speak of your own immediate circle, because I am a party to a variety of circles including the well to do, political elites, academics, arty socialists, some suburban aspirationals and even some trailer trash. Yet I've known plenty of people who have no problems pursuing sex with others whatever their social circle and marital status.

That said in the face of your wife withdrawing sex, I honestly don't understand why you didn't/haven't chosen to get sex elsewhere.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

It is very rare - for a partner to lose that much control that quickly - without reacting.

The real goal is to rebalance the marriage. 

He keeps seeking her approval - and then complaining when he doesn't get it. 





john117 said:


> You had me going till the last paragraph there, MEM. The kind of woman we are talking about is highly likely to happily continue the status quo ad infinitum...
> 
> She may offer token starfish sex once or twice but if you're talking paradigm shift, I have some doubts. It will really depend upon how "self sustaining happy" she is, and whether a lot of Nice things he does are necessary as well as nice.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's more differences than those. We had 25 good years, mediocre 4, and the last 3 have been detachment central... And, sad to say, her state of mind isn't getting any better. 

I'm too picky unfortunately so the eligible circle is very small. I'm not the easiest person to deal with for a mature lady - kinda hard to convince here to stoop to my maturity level  . It could be that I'll go back to Europe in 6-7 years if I solve the medical coverage issue. Lots of Marlboro widows in my home town...

There's also the issue of time for affairs. They're very time consuming and in the grand scheme of things not conducive to LTR formation. The few merry widows I know aren't LTR material, and the singles... Brrrr.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Thanks all for the feedback....as I really step back and look at my wife it seriously seems as if she has some inability to be sexual....

Here are some of the things I have applied the last week..for myself and I must say I have more energy for myself ...

Stopped doing all the dishes ...
Stopped waking up wifw and daughter in am.
I don't call her or text..just reply to hers not immediately. .
Stopped doing all of the shopping ....
Not talking about sex..anymore ...
Reading more of NMMNG..

I am feeling sexual though all of the time. I'm like wondering if I should treat myself to some kind of toy for my own pleasure ..at least to satisfy my urge ....

I am looking at counselors to see when ro schedule an appointment for marriage counseling ..wife doesn't know but we did discuss months back and I think I've realized that having conversations with my wife doesn't ever work ..so I think third party may be good...

I am focusing mainly on making money every day and things that I can accomplish ...I do want sex ..I wish I just could have a day of being ravished sexually. .I feel like I have missed that experience over the last 5 years of being wanted more then 10 minutes ...I'm talking out loud..

Have shaved down my diet as well and gaining more results with my trainer as more veins and muscles showing ..working on me feeling good about me


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Good progress! Keep it up.



sunchild15 said:


> I am feeling sexual though all of the time. I'm like wondering if I should treat myself to some kind of toy for my own pleasure ..at least to satisfy my urge ....


Just let this go. It's like you know winter is coming and it's going to be cold for a few months. Sure, you'd like to be warm, but you're not going to do yourself a favor thinking everyday about how much you'd like to be warm.



sunchild15 said:


> I am looking at counselors to see when ro schedule an appointment for marriage counseling ..wife doesn't know but we did discuss months back and I think I've realized that having conversations with my wife doesn't ever work ..so I think third party may be good...


I don't see the point of marriage counseling at this point. If you keep things up, maybe she'll bring up the topic eventually.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you seeing a personal therapist? If not, there's no reason to go to a marriage counselor yet. You need to fix YOUR issues first. Dragging her to MC is just another Nice Guy attempt to make HER change. And she will hate you for it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I realize this is a major - perhaps life changing (marriage ending) type conversation but it's also a completely honest one.
> 
> Agree with her. Full stop. Agree you are responsible for your own happiness and then minimize your interactions with her. Find a hobby or two that keeps you out of the house. Do NOT minimize your interactions with your child. Do the dad thing and do it well.
> 
> ...


this is all good up until the last sentence.

the truth is-- you don't know how she will react.

and

you can't make your decisions based on an expectation that they will cause her to do anything

the task instead is simply to regain your independence

and while it is true that an independently happy man is more attractive than a beat down dependent man, not every woman is going to dig every independent man

that sucks, but that's life


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> Thanks all for the feedback....as I really step back and look at my wife it seriously seems as if she has some inability to be sexual....
> 
> Here are some of the things I have applied the last week..for myself and I must say I have more energy for myself ...
> 
> ...


this is a great start.

regarding the desire thing, my suggestion is to just accept that your wife is no longer an outlet for that. pretend she's just a bicycle with the front wheel missing-- it just won't go.

that will ease the burden somewhat of thinking "what if..."

then, notice all of the other women you interact with on a daily basis and apply the "what if..." to them

this is not to suggest actually cheating, but simply transferring your mental energy from your wife to the broader world of women.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Work today..today I worked with some people and I spoke...for the positive ...first I am really a dynamic guy.. I spoke with 9 or 10 women all that I felt a connection with ...one said hi to me and introduced herself..another joked...another chatted with Me...and just talking ..it's was very interesting how easily i connect with people on a positive level...I felt a few flirting with me and I felt awesome..! I thought wow amazing how easily i can connect with people on a positive level...cool....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Your relationship with your spouse is always on a different level than your relationship with other people. Why? Because you have a 'contract' with your spouse, and you, particularly, need her to need YOU. So you automatically go into THAT relationship with hat in hand. 

That said, a healthy guy will still be able to say "Yes, I want you and I even need you - to an extent. As long as we're both getting good stuff out of this arrangement, I'm happy to stay; but if it keeps being one-sided, I'm gonna have to go, and find someone else who'll be as into me as I am into her."

That's what's missing in your marriage - you still aren't ready to walk if you have to. And she subconsciously knows that.

Honestly, if you were to read as many threads as I've read over the years, you'd see that that one fundamental key is the issue in almost EVERY relationship - being willing or able to walk away if you are mistreated.

Until you can reach that - through lots of therapy - you will always be unhappy because you will always tie YOUR happiness to another person's willingness to care. You have to learn how to be happy by yourself, and THEN your relationship just becomes icing on the cake. As long as you're waiting for HER to make you happy, you remain a prisoner to another person's whims.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The opposite may not hold. Let's say you do a mega detach and are happy as a clam (hey?) on your own. Your partner takes offense in your detachment and turns negative on you. Things can escalate fairly quickly in this way... And not for the better. 

That's where boundaries come to place. You also need to define boundaries of what behavior you will accept or not accept, and course of action.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you referring to me? I never said to detach. I said to make it clear to your partner that they're on borrowed time if they don't step up. And then to carry through with leaving.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I am reading No More Mr Nice Guy: Getting to the sex chapters part again, i read this before however I have no idea how this looks in my life?
Do I schedule a time with my wife to discuss sex, what I like, what i desire and what turns me on ? Share my secrets around this with her ?
This whole thing around masterbation and making me feel good before someone else can? For some reason I feel like if I masterbate a 
bunch then I wont want to have sex, I wont be saving anything for sex, perhaps that is the issue ...How does this look ? I schedule time 
to masterbate? Do I do this in bed laying next to her ? Does all of this really help sex in a relationship ? 

Saying No to Bad Sex?
How does that work, if its late at night and she seems tired that cant be a set up for great sex, just a few minutes.
That is how I have felt lately however I do not turn down my wife if she initiates however that is rare..once every 6 months..
How do I avoid bad sex, if i think about sex has been ok, but its always the same position for about 10-15 minutes and then to 
sleep.. there seems to be this whole missing energy of true desire..like full on wanting to make love and do oral and spend time
having sex... it has become the same over and over and of her control ... How do I handle this or change this ??

This is from the Book:

Before Nice Guys can have exciting, passionate, and fulfilling sexual experiences with other people, they must learn how to have the same with themselves. By taking matters into their own hands — by practicing healthy masturbation — recovering Nice Guys can change the most basic dynamics that shape the bigger picture of how they do sex. Consider the logic: 

• Until a Nice Guy can be sexual with himself without shame, he won't be able to be sexual with another person without shame. 
• Until a Nice Guy is comfortable giving pleasure to himself, he won't be able to receive pleasure from someone else. 
• Until a Nice Guy can take responsibility for his own arousal and pleasure when he is by himself, he won't be able to take 
responsibility for his own arousal and pleasure when is with someone else.
• Until a Nice Guy can be sexual with himself without using pornography or fantasy to distract himself, he won't be able to 
have sex with someone else without needing similar things to distract him. Nice Guys can begin to change these dynamics 
by practicing what I call healthy masturbation . Healthy masturbation is a process of letting sexual energy unfold. 
It has no goal or destination. It's not just about orgasms. It does not require outside stimulation from pornography and 
doesn't use trances or fantasy to stay distracted from shame and fear. It is about learning to pay attention to what feels good. 
Most of all, it is about accepting sole responsibility for one's sexual pleasure and expression. Many Nice Guys are initially uncomfortable

3. When it comes to your sexual experiences, thoughts, or impulses: 

A. You are comfortable revealing everything about yourself to your partner. ( See Below) 
B. You have secrets that you have never shared with anyone. ( Have not ) 
C. Some aspect of your sexuality has caused a crisis in an intimate relationship. ( Probably what she may think or judge me ) 
D. At some time in your life you have tried to eliminate or or limit some problematic sexual behavior. ( Trying ) 

RESPONSE: I have not revealed everything to my partner. I do not share when I masterbate, sexual ideas I think of like
sex in the shower, on the wall etc... I do not even ask for oral sex - only if she offers...Do I share all of this stuff with my 
wife ? How and in what context ? She already says based on my one time in 3 month request that I think about sex a lot.
Because I think of sex and all of this stuff - I am not am addict ? I just want passionate experiences .. What suggestions does
the group have around this ?

I read about the withdrawl from sex for 6 months, hmm I feel like i have already done that one ..LOL...


Glover, Robert. No More Mr. Nice Guy (Kindle Locations 1821-1822). . Kindle Edition.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon is absolutely correct.

I should not have posted the last sentence - for multiple reasons. 

The goal is emotional self sufficiency - full stop.



Anon1111 said:


> this is all good up until the last sentence.
> 
> the truth is-- you don't know how she will react.
> 
> ...


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

So wait, geez, you seem like a floundering fish here..just one thing..so she's always tired..yawning and the likes when she goes to bed (a very tacit signal "Don't even think about trying to get some tonight, I'm not interested")

So she trains at the gym? Has energy for that? How often does she train, and who's her trainer.. forgive me if this has been asked before or is no longer relevant.

All of this..I'm absolutely all for suggesting No More Mr Nice Guy but this looks a lot like my younger days when I was trying to get some from the ladies and read up on all sorts of pick up guy manuals and lectures and the sort.

It's a very simple thing. OP wants to bang his wife. Not because he's a nice guy, or because he's a horn muffin. He desires, loves and wants to be with his wife.

Right now he's twisting himself in a knot trying to change himself, in turn to change her to get her to want to have sex with him.

I see excuses. From her. She seems young and fit and just not into OP.

I'm sure she's happy with the life she has. Bills are paid. She can sleep 11 hours. Go to the gym. Have time to watch TV. Everything that's now important but the OP.

How long are you willing to twist yourself into a pretzel to get sex? Unless she wants to fix it (that is if she's not banging someone else) then reading Mr Nice Guy while helping you figure out yourself is not going to get your wife to jump your bones.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Her trainer is a woman..there is no other person and she is not interested in sex...it's almost like an engine with 3 spark plugs out..she's just not connected at the moment ...her mind just doesn't seem to go there it's like a short circuit ....

I feel like she is more them likely depressed in some way or has no libido..she discussed that she had no desire to have sex a year back with me or even anyone else that she didn't know why she feels not sexual and also lazy arpund sex as well...like she's just not unto it like she used to ..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sc, I keep telling you...if you become a man she would lust after, she WOULD want sex with you. This is NOT about her. It's about YOU. You are a wet fish. You are needy. You are whiny. You are morose. You obsess about sex. You touch her sexually - little baby 12-year-old-boy moves - but you are afraid to 'take' her like the men in the romance novels. 

_You are not appealing._

And stop blaming this on her. It's not her fault you're a weak, sad, doormat. YOU did that. YOU made yourself unappealing. So stop saying 'oh, if she'd just get on antidepressants, we'd have wild passionate sex.' NOTHING is going to change until you get your own head out of your butt and stop trying to lay this all at her feet and TAKE A HARD LOOK AT YOURSELF.

Every few days, you seem to 'get it' and talk about what you can do to change yourself, and then within a day, you're back to 'oh, she must need hormones (can't possibly be ME who's not turning her on) or her depression is making her not want sex (of course I shouldn't have to change back into a strong man).'

Until you deal with YOUR CRAP and once again (or for the first time) become a self-sufficient, self-assured, self-loving man who walks around KNOWING he's a catch and she's lucky to have him, SHE WILL NOT WANT SEX WITH YOU. Woman despise doormats. Don't you understand that?

What's it gonna take for you to get to a psychologist and start going regularly?

Do you even understand WHY Glover is so adamant about you learning to satisfy yourself with masturbation?


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

For what it's worth, if you just listen to Turnera you'd be in much better shape.

Why don't you listen?


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## zzzman99 (Oct 23, 2015)

Exactly, OP you are a *****. Man up. Start lifting weights. 

YOU ARE UNATTRACTIVE.

Make yourself attractive, quit giving a c___ about her, take care of yourself and see what happens in 6 months. 

Start now.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

So frustrating.

You come here for advice, get it, and ignore it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> sc, I keep telling you...if you become a man she would lust after, she WOULD want sex with you. This is NOT about her. It's about YOU. You are a wet fish. You are needy. You are whiny. You are morose. You obsess about sex. You touch her sexually - little baby 12-year-old-boy moves - but you are afraid to 'take' her like the men in the romance novels.
> 
> _You are not appealing._
> 
> ...


This is true. For a woman, a whiny, needy, timid, sex obsessed 12 year old boy is a huge turnoff. 

If that's you then I'm not surprised your wife doesn't want sex with you. 

Women are attracted to men, not boys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Again, for "most women" this is true. For the "sexually averse / no desire type of woman" some people are dealing with here any consideration of intimate life comes across as described, regardless of delivery method or frequency of delivery.

This little fact is generally lost upon those who are lucky enough to only have to deal with 'most women'...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thing is, john, you have no idea which type his wife is. You just assume any woman who says no is a frigid b*tch.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't assume anything. Not scientific to make such assumptions.

Sex every 6 months and constant tiredness, irritability, and other *facts* reported by OP suggest a certain group of possible causes.

Interestingly enough, your diagnosis isn't one of them. My diagnosis is mostly cultural / FOO and depression related, not a choice or personality trait as you described.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well as long as one is a timid, whiny, needy, sex obsessed 12 year old he'll never know for sure what kind of woman he has. 

So it seems to me that this is low lying fruit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You have information about both sides of the bed. Use it wisely. Somehow the peanut gallery seems to fixate on his (agreeably not conducive to intimacy) attitude with little regard to her attitude.

The true low hanging fruit is to assess whether she has the opportunity to bring out her sexuality out of the walk-in freezer or not. For anyone, including herself.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Dude let me summarize this whole thread for you. Learn to be assertive in your own life and in your future. Not demanding, assertive.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Malaise said:


> So frustrating.
> 
> You come here for advice, get it, and ignore it.


In fairness, the things we're asking OP to accept are actually very hard to accept.

e.g.,

accept that your wife just isn't into you

accept that you just might not be attractive right now

accept that, although you may feel like you are an OK guy and you don't deserve this, nothing will get better unless you personally do something major to change your life. 

accept that, in the end, no matter what you do, you need to become comfortable with losing your wife.

accept that, even if you become an A+ all around guy, your wife still might not want you

accept that your wife would very likely be very enthusiastic about being with a great many men who are not you, and would happily do things for them that she has no interest in doing for you.

block all avenues of escape and confront reality.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> accept that your wife would very likely be very enthusiastic about being with a great many men who are not you, and would happily do things for them that she has no interest in doing for you.


This one will only last for a while though most likely.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sokillme said:


> This one will only last for a while though most likely.


I think many women have a default tendency toward serial monogamy

this makes sense on an evolutionary level to ensure diverse offspring and to ensure care of children while they are young (hence the monogamy part)

but I think these macro issues only matter to the extent they can help you be aware of when she is actually losing interest in you

the only thing you really need to do is observe her actions


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Had a discussion with wife about me going to counseling and working on my issues . I really has to get this all out because I feel like we're not progressing ..told her it would be important for her to come after I start going to work on us being closer ..

This stale mate situation is driving me nuts..my wife claims if I just walked around happy all otlf the time we would be closer and I tend to disagree because I have tried that for a very long time now and I don't see that to be the truth ..


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> This stale mate situation is driving me nuts..my wife claims if I just walked around happy all otlf the time we would be closer and I tend to disagree because I have tried that for a very long time now and I don't see that to be the truth ..


dude, I am telling you-- give up on winning her over and the problem just floats away.

you want to walk around genuinely happy all of the time? what is the SOURCE of your unhappiness? is it maybe your TRYING to solve a problem over and over and over again which you cannot solve on your own?

stop trying and open your eyes to the fact that you can be happy without this. 

when you can prove to yourself and your wife that you don't need this to be happy, you will have everything you need.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Had a discussion with wife about me going to counseling and working on my issues . I really has to get this all out because I feel like we're not progressing ..told her it would be important for her to come after I start going to work on us being closer ..
> 
> This stale mate situation is driving me nuts..my wife claims if I just walked around happy all otlf the time we would be closer and I tend to disagree because I have tried that for a very long time now and I don't see that to be the truth ..


Stop the discussions with your wife.

If you decide that counseling would be good for you, just do it.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

So give up on working on any of this with wife and I win her over ? Somehow I feel like I have tried all of this before and it didn't work ...how does that actually work if my wife is depressed, tired or has no energy all of the time ? I don't seem to believe that all of this foxes it self. .I stopped initiating or having discussions for last 6 months and it has not gone anywhere on me just taking care of me and being happy...perhaps you feel that I have not applied all of this...ok perhaps I just go and work on myself with the counselor on my own which is what my goal..is anyways first
...somehow my inner sense says being happy being married and being ok with no sex and intimacy for 6 months shouldn't phase me ...and that is not the focus it's connection. Not sex...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> So give up on working on any of this with wife and I win her over ? Somehow I feel like I have tried all of this before and it didn't work ...how does that actually work if my wife is depressed, tired or has no energy all of the time ? I don't seem to believe that all of this foxes it self. .I stopped initiating or having discussions for last 6 months and it has not gone anywhere on me just taking care of me and being happy...perhaps you feel that I have not applied all of this...ok perhaps I just go and work on myself with the counselor on my own which is what my goal..is anyways first
> ...somehow my inner sense says being happy being married and being ok with no sex and intimacy for 6 months shouldn't phase me ...and that is not the focus it's connection. Not sex...


if you've done all you can do and she still is not interested, then you can take solace in the fact that it's not resolvable with her.

you can give yourself permission stop obsessing over the issue. do you obsess over how to turn lead into gold? no, because it's not possible.

if this is where you're at, then give yourself permission to let it go.

this does not mean that you have to be satisfied with a marriage that lacks intimacy.

what it does mean is that you admit that you will either (1) stay married and have no intimacy or (2) stop being married to this woman and seek intimacy elsewhere.

either one is better than living in some self-created limbo where you continue to pretend you can turn lead into gold.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Why do people use the word intimacy and sex as if they were interchangeable? In my marriage, if DH thought that I sure would not want to have sex with him.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do people use the word intimacy and sex as if they were interchangeable? In my marriage, if DH thought that I sure would not want to have sex with him.


Was this INCOMPLETE ? I am confused ?
What did you mean to say ?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do people use the word intimacy and sex as if they were interchangeable?


Cause for many it is.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do people use the word intimacy and sex as if they were interchangeable? In my marriage, if DH thought that I sure would not want to have sex with him.




He thinks that. Most guys do.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> He thinks that. Most guys do.


Then he is very likely failing to reach her in terms of what could engender closeness (intimacy) in HER. Thus lack of interest in sex.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do people use the word intimacy and sex as if they were interchangeable? In my marriage, if DH thought that I sure would not want to have sex with him.


I use it for 2 reasons

1. because I sometimes am too polite to say the actual word

2. because often when a marriage is dead in the bedroom all other forms of intimacy die too


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

So ..why are many of you saying detach from the wife..? Get ok with detaching ? How does detaching from your wife..build closeness ..in my opinion..if there is no communication. .there is no intimacy ..

There are so many on here who's advice is in 5 different directions ...so some of you say go to counseling and discuss the issues if you can't make progress on your own....

I must say that it's amazing how people can be in a marriage expect each other to do certain things for each other ...wives expect men to make all of the money and create a life that works for them...and then it's up to the wife..when the husband gets any attention yet the wife expects that what she wants gets full attention all of the time...

Shouldn't a married couple be able to work on communication and uncover a sense of explaining how they feel....if you detach from you partner and are ok with whatever are you tolerating whatever you get and whatever life throws your way..

Has anyone here going to a marriage counselor and actually received a benefit of at least getting on the same page with what each other wants? As I have read his needs her needs and other books...is not a man and woman different ? Isn't it good to understand what makes your partner tick...? It seems that if you are married ..your a team...aren't you ? Perhaps my expectations of marriage are wrong ? If I don't share my honest feelings with my wife aren't I just hiding out and not dealing with what truly exists ?
..

My situation. Is I have shared how I feel yet I think in a marriage two people can get locked into patterns and cycles that do not work...in resolving issues yet layer the issues deeper ...Isn't it important to uncover the real issues ....

On a side note isn't it true if someone did have health issues and was exhausted all of the time and had the inability to relax because of their own mind ... would they really be able to receive ? If someone were depressed . Would they really see what's in front of them? Would a depressed or sick person truly know ..is it possible that someone could believe that they are fine if they couldn't recognize what was happening in reality of they are in their own delusion ? I'm just being devils...advocate could someone who did not have model parents that had a healthy relationship believe that what their parents had was a normal marriage ...even though it was in actuality not ?.....

Is it ok to desire a strong connection of intimacy and desire in your marriage ? Does detaching from your partner which someone recommended build intimacy ..or create distance ...this is how confusing this can get ....as I uncover more about what I can work on that's great ...somehow I have this feeling that if I go to talk to a counselor they are only getting my reality not anyone elses perception ..perhaps my reality is true to me and I know I can always improve ...how do you get your partner to want to work on the "us" part ...vs..the "i" part...if someone says well you should each just work on your own stuff then how does a partnership grow if your not giving attention. And care to the partnership and it's everyone for themselves ...I don't want things to just work for me ...I want us to work ..


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I know that I want intimacy and passion back in my marriage ...sex is a result of that ..I don't just want sex...because sex is empty with no mutual intimacy and connection...that's what I want ..our passion back to be intimate ...and be attracted to each other and bond ...I feel that dissapears ...in this world their are too many ...distractions ...money becomes the focus or what we want ...more more more and when you get to what you want you want more and the more of..becomes a chase for arriving at happines ...at least it seems that arriving at success can be a prerequisite for a happy life ...instead of enjoying the journey...then as women need emotional connection and security. .then the question is ...what is the definition of security enough money to pay bills, buy jewelry ..go to the spa, shop online ..get tratements ..eat at the best restaurants and have money flowing for you to feel relaxed and then once your a queen you can find the time for your husband ..what's the definitional of security and financial stability ...is it truly defined or is everyone's perception. Based on what they want ..and how do you know when enough is enough..perhaps you've missed the important things that are right in front of you because your focused on material security vs..people and emotional support ?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sunchild: Understandable that you are spinning. You are in pain, and you want the pain to stop. There might not be any way to get it to stop TODAY. Stop looking for instant answers or quick fixes.

Here is why detaching can lead the reluctant partner to engage. It is about being the chaser and the pursued. The person who is being pursued may not want to be caught but they probably do like being pursued. They feel that puts them in control. They can stop running away at any time, and the chaser is right there to catch them and give them attention. So the pursued get exactly the amount of interaction they desire.

When the chaser stops chasing, the pursued becomes anxious. How come the chaser has stopped pursuing me? Do they no longer find me attractive? Have they found someone else? Are they leaving me? Now the pursued is not comfortable and not in control. One common reaction is for the pursued to try to entice the chaser into resuming the chase. The pursued will dangle "catching" in front of the chaser to see if they can get the chaser to restart the race.

The key at that point is to be strong. You do not chase. You tell them to stand still and allow you to approach. If they run away, you immediately stop chasing. That trains them, via behavior (as Personal says, the time for talking is long past and now is the time for actions only), that they will not be chased. But they can get the interaction they want if they stand still.

Of course, it is possible that they do not want any interaction. In that case, they will be perfectly happy when you stop chasing and create distance. Not the outcome you want, but at least you have a clear answer. It isn't being tired or stressed or overwhelmed. It is simply that they don't want you in the way you wish they did. Painful to realize but better to know where you stand than to be kept in limbo with lies and half-truths.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> So ..why are many of you saying detach from the wife..? Get ok with detaching ? How does detaching from your wife..build closeness ..in my opinion..if there is no communication. .there is no intimacy ....


I suggest you go back and read your thread again. People aren't telling you to stop loving her, stop interacting with her, stop living with her. People are telling you that YOU are weak or have low self esteem or SOMEthing, which is causing you to forget who you are as a man. 

We're telling you that, until you fix THAT, she will NEVER want to be intimate with you because women despise weak men. And most women never think deeply enough to figure out WHY they're not attracted to you, they just pull away. Make excuses for not having sex with the weak, needy man. Even get mad at you. Even leave you. Without even knowing why.

THAT is why we have been telling you, ad nauseum, to STOP fixating on her and START looking at YOU. Fix YOU. Make YOU stronger, get back to the man who (I assume) was once a strong, happy man who knew his worth, who DIDN'T determine his worth based on how many times his woman has sex with him.

What are you doing to fix THAT?

And in the meantime, we are telling you to detach from her, meaning STOP OBSESSING about what SHE does or doesn't do. You can't control her. You can't turn her into a sex kitten. You CAN work on your own crap and become the kind of man she WANTS to have sex with again.

You should read lonelyhusband's thread to see how a man turns his marriage around and gets his wife to DESIRE him again.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I use it for 2 reasons
> 
> 1. because I sometimes am too polite to say the actual word


This brings to mind the Salt n Peppa song "Let's Talk About Sex". It should not be impolite to use that word, especially on a marriage board!


> 2. because often when a marriage is dead in the bedroom all other forms of intimacy die too


Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who is to know. I am glad that my husband does not view sex as anything other than a leading indicator of the health of the marriage and not the primary expression of intimacy. Like me, he views our closeness as established in many other ways. Fun is key. Going out for a walk with the kids and the dogs and cracking jokes with each other. Making dinner together. Going to friends' camps and lighting off fireworks. Taking a hike. And occasionally, especially when the fit is hitting the shan, being able to honestly and lovingly talk about what feeling lead to behaviors. Being willing to share what he feels, and being willing to listen to how I feel with love, compassion and lack of judgement.

In the absence of these, sex is just f^cking.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

there's a lot of things that "should" happen

she should see that she's losing a perfectly good partner

she should see that she's causing a man who she loves great pain

she should see that you are trying to be closer to her and she is just pushing you away

unfortunately, none of this matters. obsessing over what "should" happen is just a way of avoiding reality.

and reality is neither good nor bad. it just is.

when you stop obsessing over fantasies (i.e., what you think should happen) and simply accept what is right in front of your face, you will see that it is not the end of the world. 

it only seems like it is the end of the world because you are constantly comparing it to your imaginary fantasy of what should happen.

the reality is simply that this one woman is not really into you. that's it. it only matters because YOU have invested so much in this IDEA of her being something. This is an IDEA, not reality and it is totally in YOUR HEAD.

Get out of your head and just live your life as best you can. It is all totally fine and not a big deal at all. Once you see this, you will be amazed at how confused you were.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> This brings to mind the Salt n Peppa song "Let's Talk About Sex". It should not be impolite to use that word, especially on a marriage board!
> 
> 
> Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who is to know. I am glad that my husband does not view sex as anything other than a leading indicator of the health of the marriage and not the primary expression of intimacy. Like me, he views our closeness as established in many other ways. Fun is key. Going out for a walk with the kids and the dogs and cracking jokes with each other. Making dinner together. Going to friends' camps and lighting off fireworks. Taking a hike. And occasionally, especially when the fit is hitting the shan, being able to honestly and lovingly talk about what feeling lead to behaviors. Being willing to share what he feels, and being willing to listen to how I feel with love, compassion and lack of judgement.
> ...


I agree it's a chicken or the egg scenario.

I've personally come through to the other side and don't withhold other expressions of intimacy anymore. 

It hasn't affected the Salt N' Peppa portion of the intimacy area, but that's OK because I don't expect it to.

Life's too short to be upset all the time at someone for not wanting you.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Eros needs distance. One does not desire what they possess in the same way the desire what they don't possess. 

Read: Mating in Captivity.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I agree it's a chicken or the egg scenario.


I think chicken and egg scenario is actually a little simplistic. Intimacy, by its nature, requires vulnerability. True closeness cannot be achieved without vulnerability. Most people are unwilling to be vulnerable to achieve closeness. Viewing actions, like a to do list, that if you perform them will engender closeness is not realistic. Intimacy is a journey, not a to do list. And both people have to be open to it. Upbringing, lack of trust, resentment from other areas of the relationship, immaturity, lack of self esteem are all obstacles to intimacy. So often on this board we see people looking at intimacy as a quid pro quo. I do the things you say you need on your list, you do the things I say on my list. Real feelings of closeness don't work that way.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

If there is resentfulNess and expectations that each person has ..how does one work on them if talking and discussing your issues doesn't seem to lead to an area of resolve ...so the husband fulfills his responsibilities of bringing in income and working whether he likes what he does or not in order to support the family and the women decides what she is going to do based on how she feels...perhaps my confusion. Lies deeper I'm myself ..why am I expected to work and provide at all costs ...whether I feel like it or not I have a discipline of creating income for my family...and why is it a struggle to request that we each disuss what works best for both of us...not one of us .. I feel there is a true avoidance of the elephant in the room in our relationship and the focus is on other things because if we get those other things then this issue will work itself our ?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> If there is resentfulNess and expectations that each person has ..how does one work on them if talking and discussing your issues doesn't seem to lead to an area of resolve ...so the husband fulfills his responsibilities of bringing in income and working whether he likes what he does or not in order to support the family and the women decides what she is going to do based on how she feels...perhaps my confusion. Lies deeper I'm myself ..why am I expected to work and provide at all costs ...whether I feel like it or not I have a discipline of creating income for my family...and why is it a struggle to request that we each disuss what works best for both of us...not one of us .. I feel there is a true avoidance of the elephant in the room in our relationship and the focus is on other things because if we get those other things then this issue will work itself our ?


I give up.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

So you feel all of this is because I am weak and have low self esteem...? I don't feel weak..I generate results in my life..I'm a leader and I make great things happen...I feel attractive and confident ...low self esteem....hmmm...I think much of my efforts are around growing my relationship..hmmm. Isn't it healthy to want physical connection with my wife ..I get turned on and have a healthy libido. .perhaps it's more like ..trying to figure out why it's that we have had physical connection. 3 times in the last 15 months ..why my wife is always tired and sleeping ..she gets 20 more hours of sleep per week and I work longs hours and she is the one who's exhausted ..her brain seems exhausted and only focused on work work work ...when things change in life ...don't you wonder what happened ? I am reading no more mr nice guy and his needs her needs..I guess if I work on on myself then I will be even stronger...I feel like I'm learning a lot...my wife doesn't read any books on marriage or any of these..she will spend lots of time upset at politics ...her parents slept in separate beds ...most of her family is I'm no relationship or unhappy arrangements ...

I can be stronger and stronger ..I guess I can be an example of how to be strong and understand all of these underlying principles of being a man. Yes and I shouldn't count on my wife to want me or want to be with me ...I should be strong on my own..if I feel sexual I can make myself happy. .I guess I want too much for the "us" part to work better and grow....

I didn't think I was weak or not confident and perhaps it's bring strong with her ...that is the driving force ...behind all of this. 
And being ok married without the physical connection...listen I don't want force my wife to want me ....


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> If there is resentfulNess and expectations that each person has ..how does one work on them if talking and discussing your issues doesn't seem to lead to an area of resolve ...so the husband fulfills his responsibilities of bringing in income and working whether he likes what he does or not in order to support the family and the women decides what she is going to do based on how she feels...perhaps my confusion. Lies deeper I'm myself ..why am I expected to work and provide at all costs ...whether I feel like it or not I have a discipline of creating income for my family...and why is it a struggle to request that we each disuss what works best for both of us...not one of us .. I feel there is a true avoidance of the elephant in the room in our relationship and the focus is on other things because if we get those other things then this issue will work itself our ?


the solution is extremely simple: you only do what you actually want to do.

nobody is making you go to work, provide for your family, etc. you are choosing to do it. if you really don't want to do any of that, don't do it.

don't put it on your wife as if she is making you do this stuff. you are choosing to do it. my strong guess is that you would do it regardless of anything she might do, so the only "connection" between what you do and what she does is in your head.

sever that connection and there is no problem.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think chicken and egg scenario is actually a little simplistic. Intimacy, by its nature, requires vulnerability. True closeness cannot be achieved without vulnerability. Most people are unwilling to be vulnerable to achieve closeness. Viewing actions, like a to do list, that if you perform them will engender closeness is not realistic. Intimacy is a journey, not a to do list. And both people have to be open to it. Upbringing, lack of trust, resentment from other areas of the relationship, immaturity, lack of self esteem are all obstacles to intimacy. So often on this board we see people looking at intimacy as a quid pro quo. I do the things you say you need on your list, you do the things I say on my list. Real feelings of closeness don't work that way.


terms like intimacy are a little amorphous.

I think you can be intimate in a sense with another person in a way that is like a parent/child dynamic-- a true gift without expectation of return.

I think this is the ideal. Everything short of this is in reality some version of quid pro quo.

the ideal is probably unrealistic for most people in most relationships. it's important to admit that.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> If there is resentfulNess and expectations that each person has ..how does one work on them if talking and discussing your issues doesn't seem to lead to an area of resolve


You are not listening bro. You can't resolve it if she is recalcitrant and won't budge. If she stonewalls then there really is no point in discussing it. Your views on marriage and what makes a good marriage appear to be different. 

Is her view working for you? 

Then stop being her b!tch.



sunchild15 said:


> ...so the husband fulfills his responsibilities of bringing in income and working whether he likes what he does or not in order to support the family and the women decides what she is going to do based on how she feels


Some women will do that. 

But, if you feel taken advantage of and don't like what you are doing, then stop doing what your doing and stop supporting her. 

It is strictly your "responsibility" because you've allowed it be so.



sunchild15 said:


> ...perhaps my confusion. Lies deeper I'm myself ..why am I expected to work and provide at all costs ...whether I feel like it or not I have a discipline of creating income for my family...and why is it a struggle to request that we each disuss what works best for both of us...not one of us


I will repeat. It is strictly your "responsibility" because you've allowed it be so. If she doesn't care about what works best for both of you, then your option(s) are quite simple...continue to put up with it or withdraw your support.

When you chose your mate...you chose poorly.



sunchild15 said:


> .. I feel there is a true avoidance of the elephant in the room in our relationship and the focus is on other things because if we get those other things then this issue will work itself our ?


She is happy where she is at, so in her mind, why should anything change? Of course she avoids it. And you allow that.

Things this big don't normally just work themselves out.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Tron said:


> You are not listening bro.
> 
> 
> It is strictly your "responsibility" because you've allowed it be so.
> ...


Yep


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> terms like intimacy are a little amorphous.
> 
> I think you can be intimate in a sense with another person in a way that is like a parent/child dynamic-- a true gift without expectation of return.


I actually don't. A connection is necessarily a two way thing. I cannot feel true intimacy with my kids because I cannot expect (nor to I want) to expose myself to certain kinds of vulnerability to them. That would not be in their best interest. A unilateral "connection" is not the strongest connection at all. Feeling that HE wants me is not enough. I need to feel I want HIM. And vice versa. It is a sharing. Not just a giving.



> I think this is the ideal. Everything short of this is in reality some version of quid pro quo.


And I think that quid pro quo is what they get when they don't how to pursue something better. Or don't think to, or are too afraid to, hold the bar higher. Here is the kicker. Quid pro quo will Never, Ever, Ever work to build connection (aka intimacy). It is about a zillion percent more likely to either yield resentment or, like you, walking dead.



> the ideal is probably unrealistic for most people in most relationships. it's important to admit that.


I agree that it is unrealistic. And that is a damned shame. I believe that anyone courageous enough to seek it can find it. They have to be strong enough to get kicked in the teeth along the way and not crumble. But it is very possible.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> This brings to mind the Salt n Peppa song "Let's Talk About Sex". It should not be impolite to use that word, especially on a marriage board!
> 
> 
> Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who is to know. . Like me, he views our closeness as established in many other ways. Fun is key. Going out for a walk I am glad that my husband does not view sex as anything other than a leading indicator of the health of the marriage and not the primary expression of intimacywith the kids and the dogs and cracking jokes with each other. Making dinner together. Going to friends' camps and lighting off fireworks. Taking a hike. And occasionally, especially when the fit is hitting the shan, being able to honestly and lovingly talk about what feeling lead to behaviors. Being willing to share what he feels, and being willing to listen to how I feel with love, compassion and lack of judgement.
> ...


(*Brilliant* post, NS! :yay::smthumbup

And so much of this comes before getting into the bedroom.

Think back on when you first met your wife. Chances are, you both didn't dive into bed within 5 minutes after you met. The two of you actually _T-A-L-K-E-D_ first. You discovered something that you had _in common _with each other. Maybe you both shared a love of underwater photography or that you had similar views on spanking or that you both love '50's music and you were both at the same '50's concert on the same day in the same arena 6 years before you met. 

With every sentence out of your mouth, you're building toward emotional intimacy, and eventually that emotional intimacy will lead to sexual intimacy. 

If you stop the emotional intimacy, the sex will eventually stop, too (or radically decrease)

Of course, people can FAKE emotional intimacy. A lot of men do this because their goal is to get a woman into bed with them, and not to have a true connection. 



> I am glad that my husband does not view sex as anything other than a leading indicator of the health of the marriage and not the primary expression of intimacy


Ohhh...if only more men (especially) would see it this way, they'd probably be getting 'sexed-up' more often!



> In the absence of these, sex is just f^cking


Or, it's just plain non-existent.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega, you assume steady state there. For many sexless marriage couples the steady state is ignorant bliss on one side and resentment and indifference on the other side. That's not quite the same as rekindling a relationship...

The reason is simple. Doubt. Think prisoner's dilemma . I wish it wasn't something easy. Some couples overcome it, some don't.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Vega, you assume steady state there. For many sexless marriage couples the steady state is ignorant bliss on one side and resentment and indifference on the other side. That's not quite the same as rekindling a relationship...
> 
> The reason is simple. Doubt. Think prisoner's dilemma . I wish it wasn't something easy. Some couples overcome it, some don't.


Huh? 

Sorry, but I'm not getting where you're coming from....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Vega said:


> (*Brilliant* post, NS! :yay::smthumbup
> 
> And so much of this comes before getting into the bedroom.
> 
> ...


This is why I told him to go look at lonely husband 42301's thread. His marriage was dead. His wife cheated, pretty badly. So he kicked her out and then some.

HE MOVED ON because he wasn't willing to suck up to a woman who was treating him so badly. He was READY TO DIVORCE. 

He removed himself from her presence, he literally disappeared, went to another state, and left her standing there with her jaw on the floor. 

She pursued. She persisted. She proved herself.

So he gave her a second chance. And ever since then, guess what they have been doing? Despite all the naysayers here, who said she's a cheating wh*re who doesn't deserve anything?

The two of them have been having a reawakening of their marriage - spend all their time together, talk again, do things again, go places again, and the love is coming back.

Harley says you have to spend 10-15 hours a week together doing dating-type stuff, in order to stay in love. 

Until you give your wife a reason to pursue you - i.e. fear of losing you - she will never give you a second thought.

And until you do whatever it is you have to do to fix that part of you that's unwilling to walk away - call it improved self esteem, call it dignity, call it self respect, I don't care - nothing will ever change.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

So the answer is be willing to walk away and be pursued and spend much of your time speaking and sharing about life to build intimacy ? Hmm..so if you spend all the time like 20 hours a week talking ..how does that allow you to not pursue ? I guess I am getting mixed messages ...stay away..communicate ...be strong..don't need anything ..which way to go ? And if all else doesn't change walk away ..?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> So the answer is be willing to walk away and be pursued and spend much of your time speaking and sharing about life to build intimacy ? Hmm..so if you spend all the time like 20 hours a week talking ..how does that allow you to not pursue ? I guess I am getting mixed messages ...stay away..communicate ...be strong..don't need anything ..which way to go ? And if all else doesn't change walk away ..?


Sunchild, the reason you're getting mixed messages is because there is no _absolute_ "right" or "wrong" way to handle your situation. What will work in some cases, won't work in others. 

You very well may walk away from your wife with the belief that if you do, she'll realize what she's lost and come crawling back to you. Then again, if you DO walk away, she may say, "Good Riddance!" and build a life of her own without you. 

Relationships are not some game of chess where you use a series of different strategies to get what you want from your 'opponent'. If you walk away from your wife with the belief that "she'll come back", then you're using your exit as a form of manipulation. You're still keeping your focus on _her_. 

On the other hand, if you truly believe that your life can be better without her, then you're putting your focus on _yourself_. If you leave and she follows, great! If you leave and she _doesn't_ follow...great! 

Either way, you stand a chance of getting what you want. Yes, it would be nice if your wife would volunteer to give 'it' to you, but if she doesn't, then you're free to find it elsewhere. 

A 'win' for you either way.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If you are going to create distance, you had damn well better be prepared for all outcomes, not just the ideal one.

Someone said up thread that whether she does or does not chase, you will have your answer.

Just remember: Never...ever...ever play brinksmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> So the answer is be willing to walk away and be pursued and spend much of your time speaking and sharing about life to build intimacy ? Hmm..so if you spend all the time like 20 hours a week talking ..how does that allow you to not pursue ? I guess I am getting mixed messages ...stay away..communicate ...be strong..don't need anything ..which way to go ? And if all else doesn't change walk away ..?


The building intimacy is what I'm discussing so that you know what a marriage is SUPPOSED to look like. 

At this point, your marriage is dead. So at this point, the only thing that matters is that you are willing to LEAVE if she won't value you. Now leaving doesn't automatically mean that you get divorced and never see each other again. It just means you move on and then wait to see if she has ANY INTEREST in you, to get you back.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SC: first you walk away and see if she comes after you. IF she comes after you, THEN you spend time together improving your intimacy. If she does not come after you, then you just keep walking away. Once things have gotten where they are for you, do not spend any time talking and improving intimacy unless and until she has shown she is sufficiently interested in reciprocity to be worth the additional investment.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Vega said:


> Huh?
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not getting where you're coming from....


"This is why I told him to go look at lonely husband 42301's thread."

Which thread is this ?

Can you post the LINK ??


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/300474-wife-no-longer-interested-me-sex.html


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Make sure you understand the similarities and differences between the two cases... The thread suggested has as little in common with SC's case as one can get...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sun,
I have seen this type of post at least a hundred times. 

I don't believe it. No offense - but I simply don't. 

I don't think you are lying. I do believe you are not being honest WITH YOURSELF. 

I'll frame this in a way that is specific: 

If M2 has the energy to do all the things she wants - but is always exhausted where sex is concerned - than we have a conversation. 

But the conversation isn't: You're a frigid beotch - put out - or get out. 

The conversation would be: I don't think you like playing this (sex) game with me - what can I do to make it more fun for you?

Now - I'm not cool with being stone walled but that is because I AM NOT defensive. 

So claims of: but I do like that game - would just be met with laughter. 

And a firm statement: It is a fools errand to lie, when the truth is being requested. If you don't trust me - that is a whole different issue. 







sunchild15 said:


> So you feel all of this is because I am weak and have low self esteem...? I don't feel weak..I generate results in my life..I'm a leader and I make great things happen...I feel attractive and confident ...low self esteem....hmmm...I think much of my efforts are around growing my relationship..hmmm. Isn't it healthy to want physical connection with my wife ..I get turned on and have a healthy libido. .perhaps it's more like ..trying to figure out why it's that we have had physical connection. 3 times in the last 15 months ..why my wife is always tired and sleeping ..she gets 20 more hours of sleep per week and I work longs hours and she is the one who's exhausted ..her brain seems exhausted and only focused on work work work ...when things change in life ...don't you wonder what happened ? I am reading no more mr nice guy and his needs her needs..I guess if I work on on myself then I will be even stronger...I feel like I'm learning a lot...my wife doesn't read any books on marriage or any of these..she will spend lots of time upset at politics ...her parents slept in separate beds ...most of her family is I'm no relationship or unhappy arrangements ...
> 
> I can be stronger and stronger ..I guess I can be an example of how to be strong and understand all of these underlying principles of being a man. Yes and I shouldn't count on my wife to want me or want to be with me ...I should be strong on my own..if I feel sexual I can make myself happy. .I guess I want too much for the "us" part to work better and grow....
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I am with Mem, as usual. Only took me 23 years of sexless marriage to get here. If she doesn't want to, it isn't fun enough to overcome whatever inhibitions she has. Could be tiny or zero inhibitions and a huge shortfall in fun. Could be enormous fun but overwhelming inhibitions. Fun does not equal orgasms. Sex can involve orgasms and still not be fun. As Mem said, first response to being told "no, sex is great and I have no inhibitions" is to laugh at the absurdity. If the lie is repeated, second response is to laugh and say "are you lying to me or to yourself". If the lie is repeated again, firmly say "it is perfectly OK for you to tell me our sex life doesn't do anything for you and I need to up my game. It is absolutely NOT OK for you to lie to me about it." If she can't have an open and honest conversation with you about sex, then you shouldn't be having sex with her at all. I know you don't want to go there. I didn't either. It is the only route out of the maze.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am with Mem, as usual.


I'm not with @MEM11363, as is unusual.

I disagree with the notion that if something is more "fun" than sitting on the couch (for instance), that one would instantly get off the couch to do the "fun" thing.

I like going to the gym. I like being there (the smell, the naked men...), I love sitting in the hot tub and taking a dip in the pool (the chlorine, the chlorine smell, smells like ...... vacation) and when I'm done I feel like I've just consumed some sort of illegal drug.

But, I'm not at the gym am I?

Heck, I could go upstairs right now and ask my wife for a blowjob. She'd be happy to oblige.

Sure, being "fun" helps.

But, having fun means overcoming inertia, and that's not always easy or possible.

So, while making sure it's fun is important, it doesn't necessarily mean that if it's not happening it's not fun enough.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Y'all are missing the boat. 

She's refusing sex because ??? Nobody knows so far.

If she had fun she would do it.

If she thought her marriage is in trouble she might do it.

She's depressed big time.

She resents being 50, maybe resents her socioeconomic status, etc.

There are so many root causes possible it's not even funny.

If you really want to "destabilize" cut to the chase and think about a trial separation. Or more. AND TELL HER. AND FOLLOW THRU.

Some people simply don't get it any other way.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am with Mem, as usual. Only took me 23 years of sexless marriage to get here. If she doesn't want to, it isn't fun enough to overcome whatever inhibitions she has. Could be tiny or zero inhibitions and a huge shortfall in fun. Could be enormous fun but overwhelming inhibitions. Fun does not equal orgasms. Sex can involve orgasms and still not be fun. As Mem said, first response to being told "no, sex is great and I have no inhibitions" is to laugh at the absurdity. If the lie is repeated, second response is to laugh and say "are you lying to me or to yourself". If the lie is repeated again, firmly say "it is perfectly OK for you to tell me our sex life doesn't do anything for you and I need to up my game. It is absolutely NOT OK for you to lie to me about it." If she can't have an open and honest conversation with you about sex, then you shouldn't be having sex with her at all. I know you don't want to go there. I didn't either. It is the only route out of the maze.


there is probably more nuance in the situation beyond "either give me the full truth or keep lying"

this all assumes that she knows what the truth regarding her desire is

she probably knows she doesn't want hubby, but might not have any idea why

so any insistence that she provide instruction could easily just result in 

(1) frustration on her part that she is forced to come up with an answer for something she can't explain to herself and 

(2) blame shifting to hubby with an excuse that may have zero impact on the actual reason (or lack thereof)

my view is that searching for reasons and instructions around them is pointless.

it's just either there or not


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Remember that the vast majority of humans never bother to stop and take stock of what they have, what they're doing, how their spouse is treating them, if life is turning out ok, etc. - unless they're unhappy. Unhappiness makes you hyper-aware of your situation like no other.

The rest of the people? They never give a second thought as to all this deep sh&t. It helps to remember that our spouses are most likely not even realizing you're thinking about this stuff. Unless you're beating them over the head about it, of course, but even then, they just think you're being a d*ck and wish you'd just enjoy life. 

THOSE people will never change unless life is changed FOR them. and you suddenly saying this marriage ends, might put THEM in the Unhappy Camp and finally get them wondering what's going on. Only then you can you really address it.

I've told my H many times over the years how unhappy I am, how I wish I was divorced, and even sometimes that I'd rather die than stay married to him. But I continue to meet all his needs for some stupid reason. and he basically has no day-to-day recollection that I'm not just as happy as him.

And that is MY fault.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> this all assumes that she knows what the truth regarding her desire is
> 
> she probably knows she doesn't want hubby, but might not have any idea why
> 
> so any insistence that she provide instruction could easily just result in


Forget "the whole truth" or waiting for instructions. Many LDs are not willing to say out loud any aspect of the truth that their behavior makes abundantly clear. As you say, they may not know "why" they don't desire their spouse. They may not know "how" to kindle desire for their spouse. But they know they currently do not HAVE much desire for their spouse. And yet they lie and say they do.

Or they say they have no inhibitions, and they love the sex when it occurs. But often these are lies as well.

Mem's point was, when faced with obvious untruths or half-truths or attempts to deny or mislead, do not get angry. Do not accuse them of being selfish or evil. Just laugh and tell them to let you know when they are ready to be honest. But not to take too long, because you won't be waiting around forever. Unless you are prepared to wait forever. In which case you should not expect to ever hear the truth. Or blame your spouse for withholding it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Forget "the whole truth" or waiting for instructions. Many LDs are not willing to say out loud any aspect of the truth that their behavior makes abundantly clear. As you say, they may not know "why" they don't desire their spouse. They may not know "how" to kindle desire for their spouse. But they know they currently do not HAVE much desire for their spouse. And yet they lie and say they do.
> 
> Or they say they have no inhibitions, and they love the sex when it occurs. But often these are lies as well.
> 
> Mem's point was, when faced with obvious untruths or half-truths or attempts to deny or mislead, do not get angry. Do not accuse them of being selfish or evil. Just laugh and tell them to let you know when they are ready to be honest. But not to take too long, because you won't be waiting around forever. Unless you are prepared to wait forever. In which case you should not expect to ever hear the truth. Or blame your spouse for withholding it.


lying pre-supposes intent

intent pre-supposes knowledge regarding truthfulness

I believe in many cases the LD ACTUALLY BELIEVES her excuses ("If only he did X, I would be interested...")

Conversely, I believe it is a small percentage of LD women who actively try to deceive their husbands.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> The conversation would be: I don't think you like playing this (sex) game with me - what can I do to make it more fun for you?


What is the answer from you when she says:
"There is nothing whatsoever you can do to make it fun. I find it a total waste of time and effort".

If you were to change "sex" for "golf", you'd stay married and find a golf partner. You can't stay married and find a sex partner...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> lying pre-supposes intent
> 
> intent pre-supposes knowledge regarding truthfulness
> 
> ...


That is why laughing response #2 was: who are you lying to, me or yourself?

At some point the willful blindness becomes intentional. Maybe at the start it is innocent. But eventually the LD should realize the endless stream of excuses are BS.

Look, given your situation, I can understand why you would want to believe in the LD's innocence. And I agree that accusing the LD of lying is often counter-productive. Which is why the laughing is important.

And at some point it doesn't really matter whether it is intentional. At some point if the HD wants sex they say without recrimination: guess I just can't be good enough, consistently enough, for a long enough period of time for you to feel good about having sex with me frequently enough or enthusiastically enough. Nothing wrong with you. Nothing wrong with me. But we just disagree. Seeya.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> At some point the willful blindness becomes intentional. Maybe at the start it is innocent. But eventually the LD should realize the endless stream of excuses are BS.


I agree they SHOULD realize. But I think it's a fact that most don't.

Most LD wives will go to their graves believing if only their husband was more emotionally supportive, helped out around the house more, etc, etc, etc, they would have been interested in sex.

this lets THEM off the hook for staying with a man who they don't find attractive. 

in other words, the excuses not only allow them to escape from having sex they don't want in any instance, they also collectively allow her to avoid the magnitude of the problem.



Holdingontoit said:


> And at some point it doesn't really matter whether it is intentional. At some point if the HD wants sex they say without recrimination: guess I just can't be good enough, consistently enough, for a long enough period of time for you to feel good about having sex with me frequently enough or enthusiastically enough. Nothing wrong with you. Nothing wrong with me. But we just disagree. Seeya.


totally agree.

I believe you get to this point faster and with less baggage if you put aside all of the speculation as to whether she's lying to you or not. 

it really doesn't matter in the end.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ya'all are getting dangerously close to John's evil or stupid argument.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ya'all are getting dangerously close to John's evil or stupid argument.


Theory, actually .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
That my man - is an excellent point. 

What you say might well happen. This is why it is critical to:
1. Be calm 
2. Drill down 

The drill down question is this: Is it simply 'not good' or is it actually 'bad', and if it's 'bad' what specifically do you dislike?

That said - there is a vast chasm separating an interview from an interrogation. The former is a search for knowledge. The latter is an attempt to gain advantage over someone you believe to be guilty of a crime. 

An 'interview' is far more likely than an interrogation to produce a good result. 





Sawney Beane said:


> What is the answer from you when she says:
> "There is nothing whatsoever you can do to make it fun. I find it a total waste of time and effort".
> 
> If you were to change "sex" for "golf", you'd stay married and find a golf partner. You can't stay married and find a sex partner...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> That my man - is an excellent point.
> 
> What you say might well happen. This is why it is critical to:
> ...


If they say "Bad" and the explanation is "everything. I hate everything about it. The act is uncomfortable, unpleasant, degrading, dirty, perverted etc. I don't like talking about it, I dread the buildup, I feel dirty and degraded afterwards and you just keep coming back. The only way you can do to make it better is stop wanting to do it."



> That said - there is a vast chasm separating an interview from an interrogation. The former is a search for knowledge. The latter is an attempt to gain advantage over someone you believe to be guilty of a crime.
> 
> An 'interview' is far more likely than an interrogation to produce a good result.


In the end the result is the same. If the answer is "don't do it at all under any circumstances" no matter how you get it, there aren't many good options.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
Very few folks on TAM have challenged me as well - as effectively - as you have. Less than a handful. 

Which is why I treasure your feedback. 

In the spirit of reciprocity - I will say what is true for me - hopeful that it will be useful to others. 

I am certain that M2 would be too afraid to say such a thing to me. Which is why I no longer initiate. 

In the modern world - it is no longer considered acceptable to say certain things. Fortunately this doesn't bother me at all. So here goes.

In every marriage there is a power dynamic. In ours - that dynamic is oddly skewed. In the context of conventional (non nuclear) warfare we aren't closely matched. M2 is faster and stronger and more determined than I will ever be. Consequently in any situation that I view as non critical I am - more than accommodating. Perhaps it is best described as cheerfully agreeable towards whatever it is M2 wishes to do. 

While some would call this conflict avoidance - I don't see it that way at all. To me this is simply a matter of love. 

In the very rare case that I consider genuinely critical - different rules apply. In those (very infrequent) situations where I view M2's behavior as unacceptable - we have what can only be described as total war. Every bit as quiet as it is intense - this conflict only ends when someone blinks. 

And in this regard - I have a tremendous advantage as I have both patience and faith. 







Sawney Beane said:


> If they say "Bad" and the explanation is "everything. I hate everything about it. The act is uncomfortable, unpleasant, degrading, dirty, perverted etc. I don't like talking about it, I dread the buildup, I feel dirty and degraded afterwards and you just keep coming back. The only way you can do to make it better is stop wanting to do it."
> 
> 
> 
> In the end the result is the same. If the answer is "don't do it at all under any circumstances" no matter how you get it, there aren't many good options.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

OP, have you read up of female mid-life crisis yet? (noticeably about the hormone changes)


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

sunchild15 said:


> So the answer is be willing to walk away and be pursued and spend much of your time speaking and sharing about life to build intimacy ? Hmm..so if you spend all the time like 20 hours a week talking ..how does that allow you to not pursue ? I guess I am getting mixed messages ...stay away..communicate ...be strong..don't need anything ..which way to go ? And if all else doesn't change walk away ..?


Many women will tell you that talking, being nice, giving space, are good things because that is a socially acceptable answer.

Problem is, is it absolutely will not work for you at all.
- talking will result in subjects and topics you have no interests in because she's not interested in sharing time or ideas with you. In fact she will feel stiff and forced into communicating and actually resent every moment she's forced to waste making noise/listening to you....remember you currently have nothing she wants to offer to her. She only wants...to be anywhere else...

- being nice makes you seem like a pervert creep or slimy stereotypical second hand car salesman who is after something.
If you're nice to other people it will make you look fawning. If you're nice to her friends or colleagues it will seem like you're a weird stalker/hanger-on who's trying to inject himself into her social circle.

- giving space is exactly what she wants. If you're not around she doesn't have to think or be concerned about you, your feelings, or anything whatsoever about you. -you- are the problem...remember that project about painting the toilet room that you kept putting off but you figured you'd worry about one day. You are that project, the one that you wish would just quit bugging you. Giving the person space says "I don't care" and "you should get on with your own life now". Remember the difficulty you're having is that like painting the toilet room there's nothing about you she actually really wants, so anything that avoids the topic is "good", dealing with it "irritating"

And the real problem is that if you've been an ok husband then she -doesn't- need/want anything from you. You've built your lives so she can express herself, be independent, be socially active. Now the hormones change and the baby making hormones are gone, and the testosterone hormones are lower so sex drive is lower, what do you contribute - you have an emotional tie to her...but that makes you dependent on her, she had stronger emotional tie to her children but that's gone from her immediate life so she has no emotional tie to you, and a level of oxytocin that doesn't make her want to stay around.
so really if you were her, what would be keeping you around, and why would you need a husband. (not to mention the effects dropping hormone levels have on vaginal thickness, stimulation, etc)

While you're seeking emotional engagement, she's seeking social satisfaction. No way does that ever equal sex.


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## Geshia (Jul 31, 2016)

sunchild15 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking for insights to my marriage. It seems that sex has vanished because wife seems to always be tired or not into it. Perhaps she is depressed or hormones and health is impacting at age 49 and I am 46. We have a child and I really want our passion back.
> 
> ...


You had exactly the same situation as I do. We're both 37, but I just lost passion about sex, sometimes in a month I just give him once from so many times request from him. Well let me tell you from my perspective, the bottom line is your wife is unhappy with her life, so many cause, she feels stuck with her life, so she just live her life. Try to make her happy, when she's happy she's got her sex passion back. My husband is a grumpy person, when he's in that mood in a day and later on at night seduce me for a sex, I just so lost it, even for days, but if he's so nice to me, all I wanna do is hug him, give him everything. I'm not saying that you're the one who have to be nice, your wife too. But man and woman is different. You guys can do sex without feeling, but we can't. When you see your husband so annoyed , you just lost passion for sex. Marriage is sacrifice, surely you've known each other so well, but don't let your couple see to much your bad behavior in everyday life coz it will affect your sex life. Just try to respect and to be nice to each other, put aside your bad habit that your couple doesn't like. Sacrifice... Even you feel so hard. Just try to make your wife so lucky to have you, it will make her passion back. I hope... Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> Very few folks on TAM have challenged me as well - as effectively - as you have. Less than a handful.
> 
> Which is why I treasure your feedback.
> ...


Broadly then, if it comes out this way, there are no answers? My suspicion is that if the situation has gone on for a length of time, this is how the lower drive partner DOES feel (or believes that they feel), and if that is the case, then what you have is Nicholson in A Few Good Men:

"You can't HANDLE the truth!"

MEM, as you know I have huge respect for you, and your advice. I think though your situation suits you, that most people would perceive that being in your situation isn't much better than the OP's.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm going to recommend the extreme method, but it will hurt. 

You did not marry your wife so that you could be her drone. You know what a drone is? Look up bee biology. Male bees have one purpose only: to impregnate the queen. Once they have outlived their usefulness they are tossed out of the hive. 

Don't waste your time with counseling. If she is not willing to go then no type of marital or sex therapy will help. 

Go to a lawyer, draw up papers and hand Hera divorce petition. Tell her that you did not get married so that you could be a monk. 

Celibacy was not part of the marital agreement when you two tied the knot. If she will not make love to her man tell her to take her ice show back to her parents house and you will find a woman who understands that a husband needs sex to feel loved. 

She can join the ranks of millions of divorced working moms and the two of you can coparent. Let her go find a castrated male to marry if she needs a companion. She doesn't even sound like she wants a man in her self-absorbed little life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> If she will not make love to her man tell her to take her ice show back to her parents house and you will find a woman who understands that *a husband needs sex to feel loved.
> *_Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm curious, Bandit. HOW does sex make a husband feel loved? 

The reason I'm asking is because there's such an extreme contrast between how sex can cause a husband to feel loved, while causing his wife to feel *UN*-loved. 

As a previous wife, I KNOW how it made me feel unloved. 

But how does it make YOU feel loved?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Don't mind if I give my opinion. 

Men have to work for sex. Women make them work for it. Those who don't have to work for it are the Alpha males. Average males dislike them. There are few true Alpha males, so they have many women ready to cater to needs they would never cater to with the average male suitor, even the man they profess to love as "the one".

Therefore, when men get sex, they feel validated for all the work they've done which was not recognized for anything other than normal responsibilities(physical touch from a woman where love is reciprocal is tough to get and very expensive in emotional and male self esteem costs). 

Men feel respected when they are provided with sex from the one they love, because they have done a good job(acts of service have been acknowledged with sex).

If all men have even a little alpha in them at times, sex provides high quality time, especially for those men who are not as alpha. Those men had to work hard for it, unlike true alphas described above.

Since those men had to work hard for it, it is expected to some extent and not a gift to them, as many women seem to think. Yeah, I know that's wrong to say, but read many posts and you will realize, deep down, they are the gatekeepers and know the power of the *****. How could they not? Not use it to get what they want? You kidding me? I think it would be damn tough not to at times. I don't blame anyone for that, but do dislike those who've gotten very good at it. 

Damn right this is a controversial post. You've been asking for them. I gave you one to think about. I don't know how many will actually take the time to think about it, but I hope everyone does. 

This isn't something that has changed from some opposing type of situation years ago. I've seen this since I was able to be interested in women and didn't know why yet.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

And OP, if you come back here, why would you wish to impose yourself on a woman who doesn't want you? You seem like a gentleman. It would be the heights of rudeness to impose yourself on her and make her uncomfortable. So maybe you should lose this dysfunctional one and find a woman who would appreciate your sexual advances. Such women do exist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> And OP, if you come back here, why would you wish to impose yourself on a woman who doesn't want you? You seem like a gentleman. It would be the heights of rudeness to impose yourself on her and make her uncomfortable. So maybe you should lose this dysfunctional one and find a woman who would appreciate your sexual advances. Such women do exist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damn right.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Vega said:


> I'm curious, Bandit. HOW does sex make a husband feel loved?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is because there's such an extreme contrast between how sex can cause a husband to feel loved, while causing his wife to feel *UN*-loved.
> 
> ...


It just does. It isn't something a man can really explain. I think it may just be biology, hormones and the way we are wired. Accept it. 

Or don't accept it, to your detriment.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

It seems that much of life has become dysfunctional. As I look at the news, internet, social media
I observe people who get locked into patterns yet have no idea they are in patterns. What is interesting 
is there is more that we ALL DONT KNOW then what we do.

Everyone has different opinions, different definitions and perceptions of what something means. For 
some people are on the SAME PAGE yet how we listen and perceive things makes it seem that we are
on different pages because of how people listen to other, communication and really getting someone 
as to who they are and what they mean, and then really hearing that from someone.

It's interesting how life can unfold, and even on here what is the definition or intimacy, passion and sex..
Perhaps there is confusion on both sides of the equation. A woman thinks men just want sex and perhaps 
that is their perception, what is sex? How is it defined ? What if man really wants a connection that is 
physical which incorporates all of the same that a woman wants, non sexual touch .. to have a hand
on his back, to want to be kissed without the man always leading the activity , perhaps a man wants 
the woman to want to listen and understand him vs...expecting that a MAN is a woman and acts like 
a woman, women want a man to be similar to a woman and yet be a man.. Be a leader, Masculine, Sensitive
Alpha, Beta and all of the above... Its all kind of interesting to me..

My wife went for a coffee the other day and ran into someone and did not come back for two hours,
Turned out it was another parent from the school and she felt compelled to listen and yet she said 
she had a realization which someone explained in a few posts earlier : Turns out the guy was having 
marriage issues and sharing all the he was going through.. She said she felt that she was hearing it 
all for a reason and started to think about her life journey and how her mentality has been ..

She realized through life she sets out does something and once she accomplishes it then she moves on ..
She dates me and is into having sex, then she seems to on to wanting to have a family, she has a child
and now that she knows and the purpose is to reproduce, after child is here then she is done with that 
because she has experienced that, so now her realization is how does she evolve sex into something else.
She shared last a few days ago that she realized she wants to evolve the experience into something else
vs having sex and talking dirty.. I asked what that may look like or what she was thinking - she said she 
did not know but that she has been thinking about why she just is not into sex lately ...last week we 
had a discussion and she said she would be willing to go to a counselor with me to work on us, because 
I suggested it bring us closer and she admitted that she open to grow as a person..She wants the 
relationship to evolve which is the same that I want - I am not sure if she really knows what that means
however I think its something you have to explore , perhaps she is confused about life and where she is 
etc ..

So as she was listening to this other persons problems she realized some things about life ..


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think chicken and egg scenario is actually a little simplistic. Intimacy, by its nature, requires vulnerability. True closeness cannot be achieved without vulnerability. Most people are unwilling to be vulnerable to achieve closeness. Viewing actions, like a to do list, that if you perform them will engender closeness is not realistic. Intimacy is a journey, not a to do list. And both people have to be open to it. Upbringing, lack of trust, resentment from other areas of the relationship, immaturity, lack of self esteem are all obstacles to intimacy. So often on this board we see people looking at intimacy as a quid pro quo. I do the things you say you need on your list, you do the things I say on my list. Real feelings of closeness don't work that way.




This is an amazing and insightful assessment of intimacy & vulnerability.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@sunchild15 I find your posts a little disturbing. Specifically you seem to be asking for THE answers and spend a lot of time ruminating on the fact that instead you are getting a bunch of different OPINIONS.

I have a pretty simple view of things... While our life experiences are varied, people tend to behave in predictive ways. These ways - as I've learned in TAM - aren't always very evolved and are often a mystery to the people going through the script - but they follow an amazingly similar path when confronted with the same relationship problem.

The differences in behavior patterns tend to correlate to differing motivations and an individual's ability to "handle the truth" or see reality clearly.

When we TAMMERS toss out our (free  ) opinions they are usually based on our impressions of what motivates the poster and their spouse. The arguments are often over interpretations of these motivations.

So I don't see the variability of opinion that you see. I see deferring assumptions about you and your spouse. 

In fact the opinions tend to converge when there is agreement about the parties.

... with the amusing / maddening exceptions of JLD and a few others, who offer THE EXACT same opinion regardless of the situation. But I won't derail thus further to elaborate on that...

BTW when I talk about motivations, I mean things like this: some people will be miserable no matter what. They like being a victim who is pitied. Some are going through a loss or MLC. Some want easy solutions and aren't willing to put in the work. Some want a ring, baby, house and to be left alone. Some - many, many start here this way - as manipulative but suffering "nice guys". Each is a caricature I realize, but who you are "predicts" to a scary degree how you will react to different problems.

I'd love to believe we're individuals capable of free and creative responses to stress, except I haven't seen evidence of that here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sunchild your wife is setting you up for an open relationship. The writing is on the wall. Do you want that? Do you want to watch her get dolled up to go out and have sex wit other men?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> My wife went for a coffee the other day and ran into someone and did not come back for two hours,
> Turned out it was another parent from the school and she felt compelled to listen and yet she said
> she had a realization which someone explained in a few posts earlier : Turns out the guy was having
> marriage issues and sharing all the he was going through.. She said she felt that she was hearing it
> all for a reason and started to think about her life journey and how her mentality has been ..


So, your wife goes out for coffee, comes back after two hours, says she's been with a man for that time and that's OK?

Throws out some philosophical mumbo jumbo and you're good with it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
Certainly it is difficult to imagine what it's like to be in another's shoes.

As for the OP - he self describes in a very corporate alpha type manner. 

But a wife is not a corporation. She is not easily managed like a distracted boss. She cannot be ordered about like subordinates.

And she can tell whether or not you crave the truth. 

In some future thread I will describe what M2 has done for me. For now, suffice to say I'm grateful.




Sawney Beane said:


> MEM11363 said:
> 
> 
> > Sawney,
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just sayin', if your wife has another 'lunch' with this man, run. To your lawyer.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Sunchild your wife is setting you up for an open relationship. The writing is on the wall. Do you want that? Do you want to watch her get dolled up to go out and have sex wit other men?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No I do not, i am not thinking what your thinking because I see other things happening in front of my eyes. First my wife looks exhausted based on how her face and her reactions she seems very tired/ exhausted. She yawns frequently starting around 6 pm and lays in bed at 9 pm 930 tired , looking as if she has no energy...

Her periods/ menstrual cycles are irregular, sometimes she skips for a few months and they are never on time lately .. this could be because she is 49 years old... She has more desire to be alone and sleep than to spend time with other people or groups of people, she doesnt like being around a lot of people ..

In addition I find that she works out at gym yet I do not feel that she eats enough, she worked out hard yesterday, she did not get up and eat breakfast until 10 am today, had a small snack at 2:30 Pm and some dinner at 6 pm ... she seems like she was not thinking straight which could have been the lack of food and her spending a few hours on computer doing some work ...

I think the evolving conversation she is going into is her trying to make sense of why she is into sex, she may chalk it up to had sex, talked dirty done with that, got pregnant done with that - perhaps she is wondering what is purpose of sex now after these two phases however what if its a lack of hormones, some depression and body changes which I think could be possible - yet she may not even know that is what it is , she may be thinking its about evolving into something more spiritual because she has no desire for sex at all and she is looking at WHY is that , what is the purpose of life etc .. which could be some kind of imbalance in her libido ...

She did say last week after a discussion that she would go with me to a marriage counselor because I suggested we do that for better communication and for us to work on growing our relationship and working on getting closer because I do feel she is drifting and I do not feel like what I am saying is actually registering with her ..

She said she felt that there was a reason why this parent was sharing these things and there was something for her to learn from him in some way to help her with her life and give her some signs ...I called the coffee shop when she did not come home and they said she was there talking with one of the customers the whole time and she explained all of what happened to me ....

Yes, I know there are lots of women who want to be passionate out there but I do love my life and I am trying to figure out how to handle this in the best way ..


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

You are making many excuses on your wife's behalf for what is basically inexcusable behavior. Most women do not find that pattern of behavior attractive. Do you think your wife finds it attractive that you are desperately flailing around for a rationale why she isn't having sex with you, spends time at the gym, has lunch with other men, etc.?

As long as you keep imagining that her complete lack of interest in sex is all about her and nothing about you, you will continue to fail to locate the answer to your problem.

If you want to resolve this favorably for you, you need to accept that she may have plenty of sexual desire, just not for the version of YOU that she comes home to these days. Then you have to decide whether you are willing and able to transform yourself into a man she does find sexually attractive. Perfectly OK to say "no, I am not". That is, after all, what I have decided. And my wife is thrilled to be married to me. But we do not have any sex at all.

Wishing you happiness and peace.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

I do believe though if your health is impacting your energy and how you feel that it could be a major factor. .I also think if a conversation goes no where it may be good for me and my benefit to see a 3rd party marriage counselor...

I want things to change .. I do not believe it's all her and perhaps yes...it is me however I want to work on myself and after me seeing 3 ro 5 different experts in the so called relationship field their suggestion is to see someone with her ..unless that is all bs...I think whether or not I decide to make some serious decisions ...it may be important factor in the equation ...

Perhaps I am making excuses ...perhaps I do feel that much of her irrational behavior is based on health ...why else would she be crazy some of the times...and just to be straight she doesn't have lunch with other guys and she doesn't even have lunch with other ladies ....my wife again would rather be by herself sleeping or in the bathroom....she works at our business ...

As far as someone making a the corporate analogy and thinking I make demand on my wife...I do not ...my wife does what she wants it's definitely not like that ...it's far from that ....I don't know perhaps if I can't work on this being better then it's not good for me to be around at all...

Something has to shift...I feel as if I have worked a lot on myself and I haven't seen much evidence of improvement on the marriage ...can we just chalk all of the issues to it ALL being me ? What u can't improve myself after working on me for 2 to 3 years enough to make a difference in my marriage ...

Are you saying of someone is depressed..hormonally off or stressed that all of that doesn't matter one bit...listen last night..my wife fell asleep ..I went in the other room because I couldn't sleep and was bored about 30 minutes after she went to sleep....

She comes in a few hours later and ask what I am doing and I explain...she starts getting upset and yelling at almost midnight ....asking me what I was doing ..and what movie I was watching and arguing ...honestly it's irritation all behavior and she was tired and fell asleep ...I'm not going to get in a fight at night with her when she is acting crazy...but she has these outbursts all of the time and they don't seem normal ...I guess I could just take it all personally and believe that it's me ....

However I am not making excuses ...I'm making observations that are in front of me ...I guess I could just say...you know what enough is enough ...it's all bull**** and she needs to get her **** together ....

Just like she said about getting a babysitter the other day..then she commented but we can't afford that at the moment ..I guess there is always excuses you can make ..perhaps the question she should ask...is how can we afford to work on that...

After working on myself a lot and talking to professionals by myself most of them suggest to bring her into this conversation and work and these are professionals ...

Listen ..if someone has found different with their wife or husband please share with me but this go in a cave and work on me ..it's all me ...I do not see it helping much because when I am done I still have to interact and have chemistry with my wife ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The "work on myself" model generally fails miserably on cases like those but makes detachment a LOT easier. 

The good intentioned TAM folk here have likely not encountered anyone at the levels of LD we are talking about... To them LD is once a week. They offer good advice except it's not applicable. 

Having said all this, constantly tired, depressed, stressed, sleeping, unable to regulate emotions, etc are all red flags for some personality disorders, and you can DIY improve all you want without any impact.

I would not bother with marriage counseling at this point. I would bother with a full psych evaluation by a competent psychiatrist to rule out basic or not so basic issues like depression.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@sunchild15 : You may be correct that as a theoretical matter health problems can affect sex drive. And you may be correct that your wife currently is facing health problems. That does not necessarily mean that her lack of sex drive is the result of her health issues. I understand that you find it comforting to believe that it is. But I predict you are wrong. Not said to be hurtful. Said with compassion and empathy as someone facing the same issue. Exit denial and accept reality.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> @sunchild15 : You may be correct that as a theoretical matter health problems can affect sex drive. And you may be correct that your wife currently is facing health problems. That does not necessarily mean that her lack of sex drive is the result of her health issues. I understand that you find it comforting to believe that it is. But I predict you are wrong. Not said to be hurtful. Said with compassion and empathy as someone facing the same issue. Exit denial and accept reality.


Listen I get I can work on more. Perhaps the fact is I am trying too hard for just me to work on making everything work... What did you do and how did you solve it ? I think life and these dynamics are layered on patterns and ruts people get into.. For example you can always say finances - but when is enough - enough, perhaps the fact that no matter how much you make - you will always have things to deal with in life .. But if you never start looking at your mindset and what exists now - how can you make steps if your percepted reality is that everything seems ok.... the question is what is your definition of ok... and if you have never arrived at that place how would you know something NEW Is possible if you never experienced it ???


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

This thread is a bunch of mental masturbation. My brain hurts reading these meandering posts.

OP good luck but I don't know what you're talking about anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> This thread is a bunch of mental masturbation. My brain hurts reading these meandering posts.
> 
> OP good luck but I don't know what you're talking about anymore.
> 
> ...


Ok, The focus was for a SOLUTION to the lack of passion 
and intimacy. Perhaps being on this forum is not a correct 
focused representation of thorough focus since I am not in 
the open about this forum, my thoughts get a bit scattered 
by posting when I have private time...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@sunchild15: As long as you frame the "solution" as being more sex with your current wife, and focus on what you can do to obtain more sex with your current wife, you will continue to be lost and confused.

You need to start framing the question as "what can I do to be happier even if I never have sex with my wife again". THAT is the path to contentment. Paradoxically, while it may be a path the leads to divorce, it is also the path most likely to lead to more sex with your wife. This is not zen or gobbledigook. It is reality. The more you detach from your wife. The less co-dependent you become. The more you find ways to bring yourself joy that do not involve interaction with your wife. The more attractive you become to your wife. And the more likely you are to find that she has become enthusiastic about having more sex with you.

I know that you will insist I am wrong. That it makes no sense to you. That doing LESS for her cannot possibly be the path to getting her to want more sex with you. But it is. You are doing too much for her. You are taking on too much responsibility for things on her side of the street. You must let go of the rope before you can expect her to pick it up and try to pull you toward her.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> @sunchild15: As long as you frame the "solution" as being more sex with your current wife, and focus on what you can do to obtain more sex with your current wife, you will continue to be lost and confused.
> 
> You need to start framing the question as "what can I do to be happier even if I never have sex with my wife again". THAT is the path to contentment. Paradoxically, while it may be a path the leads to divorce, it is also the path most likely to lead to more sex with your wife. This is not zen or gobbledigook. It is reality. The more you detach from your wife. The less co-dependent you become. The more you find ways to bring yourself joy that do not involve interaction with your wife. The more attractive you become to your wife. And the more likely you are to find that she has become enthusiastic about having more sex with you.
> 
> I know that you will insist I am wrong. That it makes no sense to you. That doing LESS for her cannot possibly be the path to getting her to want more sex with you. But it is. You are doing too much for her. You are taking on too much responsibility for things on her side of the street. You must let go of the rope before you can expect her to pick it up and try to pull you toward her.


I have started doing MUCH less for her. I stopped doing the shopping at the market, I stopped running my daughter everywhere, I stopped helping her as much as I have, I stopped looking for approval around what I am doing. I get where your coming from, its weird when I detach then her response is : we do not talk enough or I have not seen you all day, perhaps the mind screw is all that she expects me to do and be responsible for around her being happy ( finances, money, things she wants ) I feel like its ALL on me, yet somehow her life seems to work for what she wants .. I guess its confusing to me how detachment will help us be closer ? The other question is how do I not feel so detached from her around intimacy , I mean GOSH we are married, why am i the only one that even initiates a kiss, hug and affection , and all she wants is space, sleep and me to make money...
Perhaps I feel its a bit unfair - and lets be clear I am not wanting SEX, I am wanting the connection, intimacy and passion that leads to sex.. Does the man have to just do everything ? Make Money, Lead, Detach and What ? When I do feel turned on an attracted to my wife - what do I with the energy I have around sex.. as I read No More Mr Nice Guy I guess these answer is work on making yourself feeling good - so I will detach do whats best for me and what about my family ?? I guess this is what so darn money brain confusing for me .. I made a committment, I am a great husband and a great father and I am loyal , but when it really comes down to it , what does all of that mean ?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It doesn't mean anything if there's underlying pathology that has to be addressed first. 

Given the pretty good percentage of people with untreated or undiagnosed or both mental illness, it's a lottery.

Detachment is good clarity door yourself.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

sunchild15 said:


> I have started doing MUCH less for her. I stopped doing the shopping at the market, I stopped running my daughter everywhere, I stopped helping her as much as I have, I stopped looking for approval around what I am doing. I get where your coming from, its weird when I detach then her response is : we do not talk enough or I have not seen you all day, perhaps the mind screw is all that she expects me to do and be responsible for around her being happy ( finances, money, things she wants ) I feel like its ALL on me, yet somehow her life seems to work for what she wants .. I guess its confusing to me how detachment will help us be closer ? The other question is how do I not feel so detached from her around intimacy , I mean GOSH we are married, why am i the only one that even initiates a kiss, hug and affection , and all she wants is space, sleep and me to make money...
> 
> Perhaps I feel its a bit unfair - and lets be clear I am not wanting SEX, I am wanting the connection, intimacy and passion that leads to sex.. Does the man have to just do everything ? Make Money, Lead, Detach and What ? When I do feel turned on an attracted to my wife - what do I with the energy I have around sex.. as I read No More Mr Nice Guy I guess these answer is work on making yourself feeling good - so I will detach do whats best for me and what about my family ?? I guess this is what so darn money brain confusing for me .. I made a committment, I am a great husband and a great father and I am loyal , but when it really comes down to it , what does all of that mean ?




Sorry OP but this is an example of your crazy, meandering posts.

You went from a real answer "here are the changes I've made so far..."

to a hurt, whining puppy that is a victim saying "why? why?!"

Stop. Disconnect those responses. Put aside your hurt and stop wallowing in it. You are indulging yourself.

By saying "here's what I changed" then complaining about not getting what you want THIS IS THE DEFINITION of a covert contract. Do you see this?

NMMNG.

Caveat - I haven't read it and I'm not a nice guy but I've read this post 100 times before you so you're not alone here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NMMNG and the like are likely useless in this case...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He wants that to be the problem so he doesn't have to look at HIS actions. Typical Nice Guy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Think contributory negligence, or triage. If she's 80℅ or 90℅ of the issue, what good would it be to fix the 10-20℅?

It's rational guy, not nice guy, thinking, a way of thinking that eludes most people.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Sun-- 

I will get all zen gobbledegook on you, because I like this stuff.

There is a zen saying which is

"Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water."

One way to read this is-- WHAT you do does not matter. It's HOW you do it that matters.

You might be going down a checklist of all of the things you "should" do to fix your marriage-- but guess what? Your head is in the exact wrong place.

You are doing everything with the goal of getting your wife to do something for you.

As long as you maintain this mindset, you can "chop wood and carry water" all day and not accomplish anything.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> It doesn't mean anything if there's underlying pathology that has to be addressed first.
> 
> Given the pretty good percentage of people with untreated or undiagnosed or both mental illness, it's a lottery.
> 
> Detachment is good clarity door yourself.


I agree there's probably an underlying pathology here. Mental illness, an undiagnosed PD, who knows what. That said, I'm not at all convinced it's the wife with this issue. Especially after all I've read on this thread.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> Ok, The focus was for a SOLUTION to the lack of passion
> and intimacy. Perhaps being on this forum is not a correct
> focused representation of thorough focus since I am not in
> the open about this forum, my thoughts get a bit scattered
> by posting when I have private time...


We are giving you ideas but you are not listening. 

Sunchild understand something: your wife is not going to change anything, for you or yourself, unless she wants to. For her to want to, it has to be for a reason that will somehow profit her. 

She has made it clear to you that she is no longer interested in having sex with you. Now you can choose to spend the next few weeks investigating the whys. The problem is where do you start? It could be for a myriad of reasons, but if she doesn't care enough to get to the root of her disinterest, then what are you fighting for? You have a spouse who no longer gives a sh!t about your needs, and that is the bottom line. The whys don't really matter. 

You did not marry this woman in order to live a celibate existence. If she expects that, then the basis for the marital agreement is no longer valid. Her refusal to have sex with her husband nullifies the intent of the marital contract. Your wife unilaterally changed the contract without your approval. She is in default. So you respond by ending the contract. You divorce her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I agree there's probably an underlying pathology here. Mental illness, an undiagnosed PD, who knows what. That said, I'm not at all convinced it's the wife with this issue. Especially after all I've read on this thread.


Mental illness my ass....

She's lazy. She doesn't give a sh!t. She wants to coast through her marriage only doing the minimum she needs to do to maintain the status quo, focusing mostly on what she wants from the marriage, and only taking from OP...not giving. 

Typical lazy, entitled, unmotivated spouse. If she gave a sh!t she would demonstrate that.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Mental illness my ass....
> 
> She's lazy. She doesn't give a sh!t. She wants to coast through her marriage only doing the minimum she needs to do to maintain the status quo, focusing mostly on what she wants from the marriage, and only taking from OP...not giving.
> 
> Typical lazy, entitled, unmotivated spouse. If she gave a sh!t she would demonstrate that.


well, she appears to be married to a dude who will pander to her relentlessly no matter what she does, so that does tend to make one become entitled.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> well, she appears to be married to a dude who will pander to her relentlessly no matter what she does, so that does tend to make one become entitled.


If she is going to the store, and is in her right mind enough to choose between white bread and wheat, chocolate pudding or butterscotch...

If she is in her right mind enough to be competent at her job and meeting all of her employer's expectations, and not doing any weird sh!t to scare her coworkers or clients, then she is not mentally ill. 

She has a grasp on reality. She can make informed decisions. People with psychosis or advanced mental illness cannot do these things routinely or for an extended period of time. 

She knows she is stonewalling her husband. Cognitively and emotionally she knows this and she doesn't care.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Based on what symptoms? Anxiety? Confusion? Could it be those are in response to some serious spouse issue? Or is it simply a case of the typical "blame the guy" mentality so popular here?

Please elaborate...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@sunchild15: When she asks you why you no longer spend time with her, you have 2 basic choices on how to respond.

1. Repay her in kind. Say things like: I don't know. I wanted to but I forgot. I was tired. I meant to but you were sleeping so I did not want to disturb you. I didn't feel well. I was going to when we got up today but then you ignored me this morning so I was angry with you this afternoon and kept away to protect myself.

You get the idea. A steady stream of excuses. If she addresses 1, invent 5 more. Make it appear via your words that you desperately want to be there for her, but it never seems to be the correct time or place for you to actually be there for her. Of course, your actions will communicate that it will never be the correct time or place. Eventually she may get the hint that you do not want to spend time with her or do anything for her unless you guys start having frequent enthusiastic sex. Or not. But at least you won't be kissing her behind and being her lap dog while she isn't having enthusiastic sex with you. Maybe you aren't having sex, but at least you have a piece of your self-respect back.

This tactic can keep your marriage on "life support" for a long time. Just think how long you have been running on the hamster wheel trying to find a way to get her to be more enthusiastic about having sex with you. Maybe she will get on her wheel and start spinning. Unfortunately, that is not likely. Usually a LD who is not willing to provide duty sex out of guilt is not interested in spending much time or effort in getting their needs met (which is actually sane and admirable of them). So you will probably find that she spends far less time and has far less patience before insisting that you either get with the program of meeting her needs or she'll be out the door looking for someone who will. This should give you a hint of the healthy and appropriate way to treat one's spouse.

2. Tell her the truth. Since we haven't been having much sex, I don't feel emotionally connected to you, and I find it difficult to motivate myself to spend time with you or do things for you.

Now, I can understand that the thought of telling her the truth may terrify you. Won't that "prove" that for you the entire marriage is only about sex? Isn't that being horribly selfish and cruel on your part? Won't she just tell you to go to heck and maybe divorce you if you put it that way?

All those are possibilities. Which is why you have to be prepared to accept those outcomes before you tell her the truth. But telling her the truth is also the only way to get her to see that it is in HER interest to find a way to become more enthusiastic about having sex with you. Because if she can't or won't, you won't be spending much time with her and then what is the point FOR HER of staying married to you? If you won't bite the bullet and leave over the lack of sex, maybe she will bite the bullet and leave you over your refusal to provide for her needs (even though she is refusing to provide for yours). If she prefers divorce over meeting your needs, then there is nothing you can do to get your needs met while remaining married to her.

You may decide you are not willing to take that risk. Fine. Your life and your choice. FWIW, I'm not either. But if you don't have the guts to tell her the truth, the blame for not fixing the lack of sex is on you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> If she is going to the store, and is in her right mind enough to choose between white bread and wheat, chocolate pudding or butterscotch...
> 
> If she is in her right mind enough to be competent at her job and meeting all of her employer's expectations, and not doing any weird sh!t to scare her coworkers or clients, then she is not mentally ill.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this.

My question is: it is reasonable to expect her to want to behave differently?

If you spoil the sh-t out of a child, do you get mad when the child is spoiled?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

john117 said:


> Based on what symptoms? Anxiety? Confusion? Could it be those are in response to some serious spouse issue? Or is it simply a case of the typical "blame the guy" mentality so popular here?
> 
> Please elaborate...


Who cares what the reasons are? She doesn't...or she would be working on the issues herself, looking for the reasons. She doesn't care enough to look for the reasons. 

I went into a sever depression during my divorce, and at no time was I so far gone that I was not cognitively aware that I had a problem. I knew there was something wrong with me. I knew that my constantly wanting to sleep, lethargy, not eating, not wanting to get out of bed, dulled sensations of taste and smell...all those things pointed to me that I had a problem and I needed to go to a doctor and get it checked. 

Sure as sh!t...I had acute clinical depression. A few months on Zoloft and I was back to my perky self. 

I do not believe for one minute that if this woman was slipping into MI or psychosis that she would not be reaching out to someone for help.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I totally agree with this.
> 
> My question is: it is reasonable to expect her to want to behave differently?
> 
> If you spoil the sh-t out of a child, do you get mad when the child is spoiled?


Exactly. But you have a good point. What do you do when you were part of the problem? 

OP has allowed this woman to call the shots and run rampant over his feelings. He has taught her how to treat him, and we all know that once a woman loses respect for her man...it rarely ever comes back. 

And another question....

How much of this is cultural? How does an Indian woman expect her husband to treat her? Are men in Indian society supposed to be dominant or subservient? Maybe her behavior is considered normal in her society, and all-American cracker white boy OP just didn't get the memo.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

So your saying that if my wife has lost respect for me that I can not get that back?
I get the my behavior in spoiling my wife is just as much my fault. I know I need 
so work on me... I am not whining here about that - Perhaps I need more work
on myself and my approach. Yes to tell the truth gets painful because when I put 
things the way you said about not getting my needs met - I have a feeling of shame
when she blurts out intensely : " ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS SEX" then I hide like a 
turtle feeling that I asked for something wrong ..and even though she says she 
nothing against sex, I would say that I am definitely spinning in my head around 
this which has not helped me gain respect.. I have let go of many of things that 
I was doing before ... I want to fix myself and this situation, truly I do not want 
to hang on the issues or be a victim..


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Who cares what the reasons are? She doesn't...or she would be working on the issues herself, looking for the reasons. She doesn't care enough to look for the reasons.
> 
> I went into a sever depression during my divorce, and at no time was I so far gone that I was not cognitively aware that I had a problem. I knew there was something wrong with me. I knew that my constantly wanting to sleep, lethargy, not eating, not wanting to get out of bed, dulled sensations of taste and smell...all those things pointed to me that I had a problem and I needed to go to a doctor and get it checked.
> 
> ...


So how do I get my balls back, gain respect and shift this ?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> So how do I get my balls back, gain respect and shift this ?


Read _*No More Mr Nice Guy*_. 
No More Mr. Nice Guy | A Plan for Love, Sex, Dating & Career

Read *Married Man's Sex Life Primer*. Married Man Sex Life Forum

That is a start. With these two books you will learn how you got to where you are, why you think and act the way you do around your wife, and advice on how to change your behavior so that you are no longer enabling her. 

Just for information purposes, go and get a free consult from a divorce lawyer. It won't cost you anything and the lawyer will be able to at least tell you what your rights as a father are. This will get you educated, and having information is empowering in and of itself.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> So your saying that if my wife has lost respect for me that I can not get that back?
> 
> *Most of the time no. I'm sorry. But you can plant the flag and show her the line in the sand that she cannot cross with you, and you can learn coping mechanisms to be able to live your life with her but independent of her. *
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> I have a feeling of shame
> when she blurts out intensely : " ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS SEX" then I hide like a turtle feeling that I asked for something wrong


What is wrong is that you feel ashamed for having a sex drive. Having one is perfectly healthy and normal.

When she accuses you of only caring about sex, do something radical: agree with her. "Yes, of course. When we have as little sex as we have been having, then sex is all I think about. If you want me to think about other things, then we need to have more sex."

When she expressed outrage, stay calm and say "look, maybe our marriage would be easier for you if I did not desire sex often or at all. But that is not who I am. If you want out, just say so. But if you want in and you want me to have the energy and enthusiasm to spend time with you and do things for and with you, then we need to have consistently frequent and at least ocassionally mutually enthusiastic sex."

And do as bandit suggested and get NMMNG and MMSP.


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Read _*No More Mr Nice Guy*_.
> No More Mr. Nice Guy | A Plan for Love, Sex, Dating & Career
> 
> Read *Married Man's Sex Life Primer*. Married Man Sex Life Forum
> ...


Thanks,

1) I have read married man sex primer, and the other map book, applied these items also hired the author for a consultation who's first priority of advice was to get her a full endocrinal test done for her hormones, based on his questions and my explanations his thoughts were it did not matter if I followed all of the suggestions to a T, that this endocrinal test is important because to him something seemed very off. He said it would not matter if you were the hottest most respected man, my wife still would not be aware of it based on the symptoms I shared.

2) NMMNG- Reading that for the third time and it all makes sense. Perhaps the healthy masturbation schedule and feeling good on my own seems a bit new to me, and then how do I bring up my thoughts with her and true feelings because when I have done that before I hear opinion, opinion, opinion etc etc etc , that is why I was opting for a few sessions of marriage counseling for us ...

3) Divorce Lawyer: I guess its good to know how things work. I guess... Its good to know my rights . WOW ..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> I feel like its ALL on me, yet somehow her life seems to work for what she wants ..


If you do everything for her, all her needs are met, so she has no reason to look around and see if YOUR needs are being met. Think about it. If you had a kid who you spoiled rotten, how would he turn out? He wouldn't care about anyone, he wouldn't check to see if you needed anything, he'd be floating around content in life. And he sure as hell wouldn't work hard, since everything's being handed to him.



sunchild15 said:


> I guess its confusing to me how detachment will help us be closer ?


Basic psychology. we take for granted what's thrown at our feet, without us even asking for it, and the stuff we have to work to get, we care more about. In fact, YOU are a reverse example of that. 

If you stop being the doormat, she may just wake up and realize you're still in the room. And want you again. If nothing else, she'll remember you're there and wonder why the change.



sunchild15 said:


> The other question is how do I not feel so detached from her around intimacy , I mean GOSH we are married, why am i the only one that even initiates a kiss, hug and affection , and all she wants is space, sleep and me to make money...


The key to this is that you have to be willing to walk away to be able to approach her appropriately. She must KNOW you won't stay married to a roommate. We aren't telling you to stop wanting her. We're telling you to start valuing yourself enough that you can see you will NOT stay with her if you don't get YOUR needs met. That's what we mean by detachment - YOU mentally acknowledging you're worth more than that and that she is NOT the only woman you could end up with.



> 2) NMMNG- Reading that for the third time and it all makes sense. Perhaps the healthy masturbation schedule and feeling good on my own seems a bit new to me, and then how do I bring up my thoughts with her and true feelings because when I have done that before I hear opinion, opinion, opinion etc etc etc , that is why I was opting for a few sessions of marriage counseling for us ...


How would you bring up your thoughts to anyone else you know? Are you afraid to tell her your truth? Why? Are you afraid of her anger? Of her ignoring you? Moving out? What is it? Figure it out.

She's supposed to be your best friend. You should be able to tell your best friend EVERYTHING you're thinking. You say you stopped because she gave you back HER opinion? Let's talk more about that. What exactly was her response?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Who cares what the reasons are? She doesn't...or she would be working on the issues herself, looking for the reasons. She doesn't care enough to look for the reasons.
> 
> I went into a sever depression during my divorce, and at no time was I so far gone that I was not cognitively aware that I had a problem. I knew there was something wrong with me. I knew that my constantly wanting to sleep, lethargy, not eating, not wanting to get out of bed, dulled sensations of taste and smell...all those things pointed to me that I had a problem and I needed to go to a doctor and get it checked.
> 
> ...


Most psychologists would love such self aware clients. More traffic to their practice  

That's not how it works. Not by a mile. Especially when the client is "high functioning"".

"""Experts estimate that one in four people have treatable mental or emotional difficulties, but up to 75 percent of Americans and Europeans don’t seek the help they need.

A recent study in the journal*Psychological Medicine*shows that the stigma associated with mental illness is still a major barrier to seeking treatment.

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/mental-health-treatment-hindered-by-stigma-030214


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild15 said:


> when I put things the way you said about not getting my needs met - I have a feeling of shame when she blurts out intensely : " ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS SEX" then I hide like a turtle feeling that I asked for something wrong ..and even though she says she nothing against sex, I would say that I am definitely spinning in my head around this which has not helped me gain respect.. I have let go of many of things that
> I was doing before ... I want to fix myself and this situation, truly I do not want to hang on the issues or be a victim..


Dude, print this out. This shows that YOU are what's causing the issues. You're a scared little rabbit with NO self esteem. And guess what turns women off to having sex with a man like nothing else? Men who are not confident.

THIS is what you need to be working on in your own personal therapy.

Forget about where your marriage is for right now. Ok? Just put it on the back burner. And many therapists will also tell you to put off getting any sex for now, because you'll just be confusing things. Focus on yourself. Build up that self esteem. Hang out with your guy friends or make new guy friends. Join some sports club. Take a class at junior college and make friends. Go to therapy religiously and DO THE HOMEWORK. 

Read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.s - it talks specifically about this very thing.

I can almost promise you that, as you start to fix YOUR stuff, she will become more attracted to and interested in you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're finding the hard way what I also found the hard way. That the DIY books don't work for those cases... 

When I joined TAM four years ago I was fully confident that I could find the magic spell, be it in DIY or a pro. I read each and every post in TAM SIM and tried to see patterns or clusters. Sure enough, they're there. 

The DIY books work very well for a rather narrow scope.

Threats work for a while, then...

Divorce works quite well 

Then you reach the Beyond section. I could rattle off a few posters that came to TAM, did the requisite posts, were given the requisite good intended but useless advise, and went away, presumably not in the land of the 72 virgins. 

Time after focking time.

On occasion the peanut gallery turned against them  in a rather unpleasant way. The gallery cheerleaders refused to comprehend that there are people out there that are not simply low desire, but they're actively avoiding any kind of intimacy. The proverbial "changes channel to QVC when an intimate scene comes up" type... Not the 1x a week vs 3x a week LD's but 1x a quarter type LD's. What my friend called the "quarterly plan".

At that point Elvis has left the building. Anyone who thinks this can be turned around via a DIY book, esp with symptoms like depression, obesity, and the like, may be interested in some oceanside property near Louisville...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> Divorce works quite well


:iagree:


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

turnera said:


> If you do everything for her, all her needs are met, so she has no reason to look around and see if YOUR needs are being met. Think about it. If you had a kid who you spoiled rotten, how would he turn out? He wouldn't care about anyone, he wouldn't check to see if you needed anything, he'd be floating around content in life. And he sure as hell wouldn't work hard, since everything's being handed to him.
> 
> Basic psychology. we take for granted what's thrown at our feet, without us even asking for it, and the stuff we have to work to get, we care more about. In fact, YOU are a reverse example of that.
> 
> ...



TURNERA : Here are responses that I have thought about : 

RESPONSE: 

If you do everything for her, all her needs are met, so she has no reason to look around and see 
if YOUR needs are being met. Think about it. If you had a kid who you spoiled rotten, how would he 
turn out? He wouldn't care about anyone, he wouldn't check to see if you needed anything, he'd be 
floating around content in life. And he sure as hell wouldn't work hard, since everything's being handed to him.

ANSWER:

Perhaps this originates from my wife having everything she wanted when she was little. I stopped doing 
a lot over the last month when I was forced to be out of the house most of the week Monday - Friday from 
7 am to 7 pm, I stopped giving daughter baths, stopped shopping for groceries, stopped making all of the 
beds, stopped cleaning the dishes, stopped emptying dishwasher and stopped doing a bunch of things like
running daughter to her classes and picking her up and dropping her off .. I have even opted out of some
of the trips to family where I drive and go not because I want to but because she wants to… I guess perhaps
I can take this to another level and stop being the one to put my hand on her leg, hold her hand, give her 
a kiss goodbye and be the one that shows affection - because it seems as if she doesn’t initiate any of that 
either… Perhaps I am doing too much all of the time, stop rubbing her arm, back and all of the stuff that 
I do to get her out of her head when she starts dumping her thoughts on me in bed when we lay down..
Lately I ask have requested that when she lay in bed she relax and try and discipline her work work work \
chatter to certain hours ..


RESPONSE: 

Basic psychology. we take for granted what's thrown at our feet, without us even asking for it, 
and the stuff we have to work to get, we care more about. In fact, YOU are a reverse example of that. 

ANSWER:

So perhaps detaching and not putting so much effort out is the key. Stop kissing ass, being nice 
and trying to please her so much. You would think that is a positive.. My wife always tells my daughter
if your nice you get more things in life and things work out for you.. as she says that I think what 
NICE has gotten be - taken advantage of and perhaps manipulated, its as if my wife is withholding sex
to get everything the way she wants it before she is justified in meeting any of my needs. She tends to 
have lots of reasons and excuses WHY she can’t or she’s not in the mood…maybe things need to get worse
before they get better , like perhaps she really needs to carry her part of the weight to feel where
she is - maybe I have made it to easy for her to have an opinion ….about things because she has nothing 
to worry about since i handle most of it ….

RESPONSE:

If you stop being the doormat, she may just wake up and realize you're still in the room. 
And want you again. If nothing else, she'll remember you're there and wonder why the change.

ANSWER:

Right. I may need to some practice at this. I do let her talk to me however she wants . Perhaps I 
need to find a better way to deal with it vs me going quiet on the passive aggressive side of it ..
Ignoring it and being quiet perhaps may not help she also starts to ask why I have an attitude when 
she is the ones that is always complaining to me or *****ing its as if how she acts is none of 
her concern whether she is rude, screams or disrespects me and everything i do matters - she is 
never responsible for “how: she communicates.. She also never ever apologizes or say she is sorry 
even when its her fault or she is wrong …


RESPONSE: 

The key to this is that you have to be willing to walk away to be able to approach her appropriately. 
She must KNOW you won't stay married to a roommate. We aren't telling you to stop wanting her. We're 
telling you to start valuing yourself enough that you can see you will NOT stay with her if you don't 
get YOUR needs met. That's what we mean by detachment - YOU mentally acknowledging you're worth more 
than that and that she is NOT the only woman you could end up with.

ANSWER: 

This is going to be a bit of a challenge for me. The times i have done this before, she came back to me
saying she wants to work on our relationship and she is lucky to have me as a husband but then a few 
days after nothing really improved and she did not take any steps towards that except writing a long 
letter and perhaps I should she that letter with you for your advice on it …


RESPONSE:

NMMNG- Reading that for the third time and it all makes sense. Perhaps the healthy masturbation schedule and 
feeling good on my own seems a bit new to me, and then how do I bring up my thoughts with her and true feelings 
because when I have done that before I hear opinion, opinion, opinion etc etc etc , that is why I was opting for 
a few sessions of marriage counseling for us ...How would you bring up your thoughts to anyone else you know? 
Are you afraid to tell her your truth? Why? Are you afraid of her anger? Of her ignoring you? Moving out? What is it? 
Figure it out.

She's supposed to be your best friend. You should be able to tell your best friend EVERYTHING you're thinking. 
You say you stopped because she gave you back HER opinion? Let's talk more about that. What exactly was her response?

ANSWER: 

She always interrupts me and directs everything to be my fault. I act weird around sex, I make it such a big deal
I base my relationship with her solely on sex, she would say if she had sex with me 2 times per week we would not 
have any issues … She calls me a liar , that I won’t admit that I base my relationship on sex, or that I won’t 
say what I want based on how she might think … Even though she says she has no issues around sex she stated that 
the fact that I expect her to have sex with me is hard because no where in life can she be carefree that she 
has lots of responsibility on her back . I almost feel that she only has sex when she is control of it, everything 
has to be her way, when I initiate it seems I get turned down and when she initiates she gets her way ..In a way 
perhaps on some subconscious level she wants control over the situation … I mean if she knows I would be happy 
with sex 2 times per week and that she knows me but I won’t admit that , then I have admitted it yet 
nothing every progress past that .. We had sex 7 weeks ago and before that 5 weeks before that .. I should be 
able to say how I feel , yet when I do try and initiate or flirt on a very small level she responds with we know 
where your mind is at, everyone has faults - my mind is on making money and business maybe if you got focused we 
would be better off with our business - she always tends to throw things back on me as being my responsibility 
especially for mistakes she reminds me of now and things in the past . So it gets kind blameful and is always 
about me being the one that is responsible for things …


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just a very quick observation, I do not agree with not helping with your child. My daughters are in their early mid 20's in college and we have an awesome relationship. I did not trust my wife to participate in the child raising and she was not interested, so I DIY'd...

That's your obligation as the father.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, lots of stuff to work with here. Bear with me.


sunchild15 said:


> Perhaps this originates from my wife having everything she wanted when she was little. I stopped doing a lot over the last month … I guess perhaps I can take this to another level and stop being the one to put my hand on her leg, hold her hand, give her a kiss goodbye and be the one that shows affection - because it seems as if she doesn’t initiate any of that either… Perhaps I am doing too much all of the time, stop rubbing her arm, back and all of the stuff that I do to get her out of her head when she starts dumping her thoughts on me in bed when we lay down...Lately I ask have requested that when she lay in bed she relax and try and discipline her work work work \
> chatter to certain hours ..


Here's some Female 101. If you (the female) are with a man you find sexually exciting, who you desire, touching you is great. If the man is a milquetoast, a doormat, a needy whining clingy guy who shows no strength...eeeewwwww. She is _tolerating _you touching her. Probably because she doesn't want to divorce and just wishes you would turn into the doormat she wants you to be.

So by all means, STOP TOUCHING HER. You may even play with this a little. On your way out, lean in as if to kiss her, think twice about it and pull back and say 'bye!' Be mysterious. Show her you are NOT touching her specifically. Show her you're not dying to touch her. Respect level: up 2 points.



sunchild15 said:


> So perhaps detaching and not putting so much effort out is the key. Stop kissing ass, being nice and trying to please her so much. I think what NICE has gotten be - taken advantage of and perhaps manipulated, its as if my wife is withholding sex to get everything the way she wants it before she is justified in meeting any of my needs. She tends to have lots of reasons and excuses WHY she can’t or she’s not in the mood…maybe things need to get worse
> before they get better, like perhaps she really needs to carry her part of the weight to feel where she is - maybe I have made it to easy for her to have an opinion ….about things because she has nothing to worry about since i handle most of it ….


Now you're heading back into victim mode. She's evil, she's a b*tch, she is doing this on purpose. What's that gonna get you? It's human nature to take for granted the person making your life easy. So who's fault is that? Not hers, I'll tell ya. I'm not saying things have to 'get worse before they get better'; I'm saying that you need to VALUE YOURSELF and let her SEE you value yourself. You teach people how to treat you. You've taught her that you're a doormat, a whipping boy, and week and needy. 

Teach her differently.



sunchild15 said:


> Right. I may need to some practice at this. I do let her talk to me however she wants . Perhaps I need to find a better way to deal with it vs me going quiet on the passive aggressive side of it ..Ignoring it and being quiet perhaps may not help she also starts to ask why I have an attitude when she is the ones that is always complaining to me or *****ing its as if how she acts is none of her concern whether she is rude, screams or disrespects me and everything i do matters - she is ever responsible for “how: she communicates.. She also never ever apologizes or say she is sorry even when its her fault or she is wrong …


Ok, read this back again. Pretend it's some other man you're reading about. Would you expect that man to accept being screamed at? No? Then why do YOU accept it?

And I'm sure you KNOW being passive aggressive is the wrong choice. 

And what is YOUR response to 'do I let her talk to me however she wants'? I really want to hear your answer.



sunchild15 said:


> This is going to be a bit of a challenge for me. The times i have done this before, she came back to me saying she wants to work on our relationship and she is lucky to have me as a husband but then a few days after nothing really improved and she did not take any steps towards that except writing a long letter and perhaps I should she that letter with you for your advice on it


Ok, this is where you need to learn something specific. If you call her bluff, say you are NOT happy and WILL leave - and then she says 'oh baby, I'll do anything,' guess what you do?

You say, 'That's great! Here's what I need. A, B, and C. And they have to be completed by _____ (fill in date). Let's check back by _____ and see if you have done those things; I'll give the marriage that long; if nothing has changed by then, then I'll go ahead and visit my lawyer to see what it will take to get us to that divorce.'

Do you see the danger - and stupidity - in saying "I need ABC" and then not providing a follow-up consequence? It makes you even weaker!



sunchild15 said:


> NMMNG- Reading that for the third time and it all makes sense. Perhaps the healthy masturbation schedule and feeling good on my own seems a bit new to me, and then how do I bring up my thoughts with her and true feelings because when I have done that before I hear opinion, opinion, opinion etc etc etc , that is why I was opting for a few sessions of marriage counseling for us ...


Do you really understand the masturbation schedule? Really? It's because you have GIVEN HER YOUR POWER by depending on her to give you sex. If you instead ignore her for sex and take care of your needs with masturbation, SHE LOSES POWER OVER YOU.

So when she's treating you like crap, like a roommate, do you REALLY want to tell her how unhappy you are? Beg her to care?

Ok, so if you go ahead and do it anyway (assuming you're still not going to therapy to figure out why you're so insecure), and she gives you opinion, opinion, opinion, then what? 

Here is where you need to educate yourself about Boundaries and Consequences. Here are some articles:
How to Build Better Boundaries in Your Marriage | World of Psychology
How to Set Boundaries in Marriage
Boundaries in Marriage
https://powertochange.com/discover/sex-love/boundaryinmarriage/

There are many more articles or books you can learn from about boundaries. Basically, it's YOU have a boundary over what you won't allow to happen to you, and YOU then have a consequence that you will enact if she crosses your boundaries. 

A real simple one is 'you don't get to raise your voice at me' and the resulting consequences that you will enact is 'I'll leave the room every time you raise your voice; I'll give you another chance to talk to me calmly, but if you raise your voice again...I'll leave again.'




sunchild15 said:


> She always interrupts me and directs everything to be my fault. She calls me a liar, that I won’t admit that I base my relationship on sex, or that I won’t
> say what I want based on how she might think


 Wait, so even SHE sees that you're so weak that you won't tell her the truth? Don't you see how much that's making her lose respect for you?

Were you always this weak? Scared? Insecure? Or did you used to be an ok guy who knew he could catch the babes? You need to be really honest with yourself about this. If you've ALWAYS been weak and insecure, you have a LOT of work to do in therapy. If you only became this way because of HER being stronger than you, then you have a good chance of finding your mojo again. Either way, YOU NEED THERAPY.




sunchild15 said:


> … Even though she says she has no issues around sex she stated that the fact that I expect her to have sex with me is hard because no where in life can she be carefree that she has lots of responsibility on her back . I almost feel that she only has sex when she is control of it, everything has to be her way, when I initiate it seems I get turned down and when she initiates she gets her way ..In a way
> perhaps on some subconscious level she wants control over the situation … I mean if she knows I would be happy with sex 2 times per week and that she knows me but I won’t admit that , then I have admitted it yet nothing every progress past that .. We had sex 7 weeks ago and before that 5 weeks before that .. I should be able to say how I feel , yet when I do try and initiate or flirt on a very small level she responds with we know
> where your mind is at, everyone has faults - my mind is on making money and business maybe if you got focused we
> would be better off with our business - she always tends to throw things back on me as being my responsibility
> ...


Ok, this is complete 100% Nice Guy. Are you on the Nice Guy forums? Are you seeing a therapist to FIX your low self esteem? Are you getting more things going in your life so that you don't depend so much on her approval? Don't you see that the REAL problem in your marriage is that you're a milquetoast?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,

I am genuinely happy with M2. While the OP is near miserable with his wife. 

There are however some giant differences in our respective dynamics.

M2 and I just took a 10 day vacation - 9.5 days of bliss - one evening of full blown - M2 rage. 

She was surprised by one aspect of our accommodations and quietly started melting down. Then - realizing that I wasn't the slightest bit angry about the thing that was infuriating her - she got rapidly more and more exercised at me - for not also being furious. 

I calmly pointed out the numerous delightful elements of our hotel - and said I was certain we would enjoy our 4 nights there. Then seeing that my reassurance wasn't helping - I shrugged, said I'm going to get dinner. I came back and she doubled down - threatened to fly home the next morning. I calmly said: ok - but I'm staying - it's nice here.

We go to sleep and she wakes up - completely rational - utterly mortified - apologizes over and over. Rocks my world - and again that night and again the following morning.

Every time she apologized I said the same true thing: It's ok - you were disappointed. And then (chuckling) and furious with me for not being equally disappointed. It's not a big deal.

Now it's true - I absolutely skipped over any mention of her threatening to leave. But that was VERY intentional. She was already super embarrassed. Piling on - when a partner is vulnerable - is unkind. So I didn't. And we proceeded to have a great time for the next 4 days. She didn't complain once about the (1) weak feature of the place - and instead enjoyed the (8) positive features. 





Sawney Beane said:


> Broadly then, if it comes out this way, there are no answers? My suspicion is that if the situation has gone on for a length of time, this is how the lower drive partner DOES feel (or believes that they feel), and if that is the case, then what you have is Nicholson in A Few Good Men:
> 
> "You can't HANDLE the truth!"
> 
> MEM, as you know I have huge respect for you, and your advice. I think though your situation suits you, that most people would perceive that being in your situation isn't much better than the OP's.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can't extrapolate from one or two episodes like this. Most times even the craziest of the bunch will stand down and pretend nothing happened. 

It's the frequency and intensity of the occurrences that marks one as NotNormalPeople... Which certainly M2 is not. 

My wife tends to become unglued EVERY time things require an adjustment to the plan, which is most times. Then, in typical loonie fashion she will deny she did anything wrong. M2 knew she did something wrong. Huge difference.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@sunchild15: Your wife is absolutely correct that you lie to her and hide your true feelings. You do base you relationship entirely on sex AT THIS POINT. When the sex is awful and infrequent, the state of your sex life IS all that matters in your marriage. 

And you know what? Lots and lots of people in your situation would feel the same way. So stop lying and hiding and admit it.

See, the problem here is that she is accusing you of feeling that way, implying that feeling that way is bad or wrong or selfish or evil. it is not. It is entirely appropriate to feel that way when sex is infrequent and crappy. That is what you should tell her. "you are right. When sex is as infrequent and crappy as our sex life is, improving our sex life becomes job #1 for me. And there is no job #2."

Stop pretending that isn't the case. Stop being ashamed of who you are and how you feel.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> So your saying that if my wife has lost respect for me that I can not get that back?.


you might not be able to get it back. you should work on accepting that this is a strong possibility. 

you will be OK without her. when you know this, you will be in a different place altogether.



sunchild15 said:


> I get the my behavior in spoiling my wife is just as much my fault. I know I need
> so work on me... I am not whining here about that - Perhaps I need more work
> on myself and my approach. Yes to tell the truth gets painful because when I put
> things the way you said about not getting my needs met - I have a feeling of shame
> ...


she sees that everything you do is with the goal of getting sex from her.

it is a total turnoff.

you need to forget about sex with her completely. 

take the power that she has to deny you away from her. forget about it. assume it will never happen regardless of what you do.

if you truly accept this, then at that point you can do anything and be truly free.

she can think whatever she wants and it won't matter. 

counter-intuitively, if you really get yourself to this place mentally, you can do all of the exact same things you're doing now and they will be received by her totally differently.

the difference is that you will have no agenda.

your agenda is poisoning your every thought and action.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> What is wrong is that you feel ashamed for having a sex drive. Having one is perfectly healthy and normal.
> 
> When she accuses you of only caring about sex, do something radical: agree with her. "Yes, of course. When we have as little sex as we have been having, then sex is all I think about. If you want me to think about other things, then we need to have more sex."
> 
> ...


having a sex drive is normal.

allowing one woman to own your sex drive is not.

I think it is better to say, "I'm not going to live the rest of my life sexless. I'd like it if you were interested in me, but if you're not, that's OK. I'll understand."

Then, IMPORTANTLY, you treat her the same whether or not she's interested. 

Your actions are not conditional  on whether or not she wants you. Your actions are just your actions.

There is no pressure, because you know that you don't need her to give this to you. 

You can get it for yourself, so it's really up to her.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sunchild15 said:


> She always interrupts me and directs everything to be my fault. *I act weird around sex, I make it such a big deal
> *I base my relationship with her solely on sex, she would say if she had sex with me 2 times per week we would not
> have any issues … *She calls me a liar , that I won’t admit that I base my relationship on sex,* or that I won’t
> say what I want based on how she might think … Even though she says she has no issues around sex *she stated that
> ...


look at the bolded language.

the answer is there, you just don't want to see it

all of this effort and anguish to have sex once every 5-7 weeks-- what is the point? is it really worth it?

your effort here is totally out of proportion to the prize. no wonder she thinks you act "weird" about sex!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

More support for my MinMax based theory... 

"Using MinMax optimization to model and predict intimacy in long term marriages" 

1/2


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> > What is wrong is that you feel ashamed for having a sex drive. Having one is perfectly healthy and normal.
> ...


Anon I have a question about this. You stated "you treat her the same whether or not she's interested.". Do you believe he should meet her needs and act toward her the same as he would if they were having a satisfying, intimate sex life?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Anon I have a question about this. You stated "you treat her the same whether or not she's interested.". Do you believe he should meet her needs and act toward her the same as he would if they were having a satisfying, intimate sex life?


I think he should go as far toward that as he can without triggering resentment on his part.

Resentment is a signal that you expect a return from your investment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I think he should go as far toward that as he can without triggering resentment on his part.
> 
> Resentment is a signal that you expect a return from your investment.


Good luck with that. 

Think of it as a bell curve. In the beginning you do everything because you're in love. Lots of things for no return and no resentment. Then as the one sidedness grows resentment grows and you may begin to detach. Then resentment drops again because you don't expect anything and the things you do for her are needed anyway.

Once resentment is gone you're detached for good. Bye bye birdie time...

What you don't want is increasing resentment with or without detachment.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> Think of it as a bell curve. In the beginning you do everything because you're in love. Lots of things for no return and no resentment. Then as the one sidedness grows resentment grows and you may begin to detach. Then resentment drops again because you don't expect anything and the things you do for her are needed anyway.
> 
> ...


detachment is a two sided coin

you don't expect anything so giving is free


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is where - I think Anon and John are right.

I do think you need to have a brutally honest conversation about WHY you do what you do for your wife.

I didn't go on vacation with M2 to ratchet up our sort of infrequent (of late) couplings. 

Went because she is an exceptional companion and we have fun together. 

But here's a hypothetical - let's say frequency got to be a source of irritation to me. Kind of struggling to think of what I'd take away. 

I guess the situation is far less bothersome when your partner is willing to humor you at a decent frequency but not wanting so much. 

I'm unable to summon up any genuine frustration - at the lack of raw desire. Not an easily controlled thing. 








john117 said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> Think of it as a bell curve. In the beginning you do everything because you're in love. Lots of things for no return and no resentment. Then as the one sidedness grows resentment grows and you may begin to detach. Then resentment drops again because you don't expect anything and the things you do for her are needed anyway.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is where - I think Anon and John are right.
> 
> I do think you need to have a brutally honest conversation about WHY you do what you do for your wife.
> 
> ...


ahh... the vacation conundrum.

here's how I handle it. I ask myself: would I still want to go on vacation even if there was zero chance of action?

if not, no vacation.

if yes, vacation and forget about the sex. if it happens, it's a straight up bonus. if not, you didn't expect it anyway so just have fun.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> detachment is a two sided coin
> 
> you don't expect anything so giving is free


I know - I have to throw in some equations to keep my licence 

It's MinMax in action, actually. When I fill up wife's precious BMW X3 I do it not because I like doing things for her, but because she will likely mess it up and blame me for it anyway, so you minimize risk there...

To me, the risk of having her fill it with E85 or B20 (gotta love Kentucky) far exceeds the hassle of filling it up once a month. I figure it and I get about the same amount of action   so....


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> I know - I have to throw in some equations to keep my licence
> 
> It's MinMax in action, actually. When I fill up wife's precious BMW X3 I do it not because I like doing things for her, but because she will likely mess it up and blame me for it anyway, so you minimize risk there...


I don't know if it's MinMax in action.

at some point you remove yourself from the P&L ledger.

I'm not saying it's easy to get to this point completely, but it's do-able for a surprising percentage of daily life activities

when you can achieve this, things are so much less complicated. you're just doing what you want and it's totally free.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> ahh... the vacation conundrum.
> 
> here's how I handle it. I ask myself: would I still want to go on vacation even if there was zero chance of action?
> 
> ...


The last time we went on vacation was four years ago. The infamous 25th anniversary cruise to Alaska. We have gone to visit the kids in their college towns but four people and a monster cat in a 400 sq ft studio apartment aren't exactly an intimate setting.

Vacations trigger some MAJOR sh!t to her, so there's no point helping along. Our older is leaving for a semester in Rome in a couple weeks and wifey wanted to visit there. That ain't happening purely as a financial measure, I think both of us will spend the money on lawyers as it is so... 

Also ruled out a cruise a couple years ago when I told her that we could get two cabins instead of a family cabin for the same $. She was horrified at the risk of having her daughters away from her and unsafe (the same ones in college 10-12 hours away by car . Beyond funny.

Pretty much reduce triggers and life goes by quickly...


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Sunchild15

I haven't read each and every post here, rather I skimmed through it. But I wanted to share the similarities between your story and mine and i hope this will bring some clarity to you with what you are dealing with....at least in my opinion.

*In a nutshell, this is what you are dealing with:

Your wife is a spoiled princess, completely self absorbed, and ungrateful for what life has given her. She is totally detached from you and blames you for her horrible existence.

You could probably bring her flowers today, and she would ***** they were the wrong color or style (maybe to herself and not out loud, "he should know I like daisy's better than roses"!) or she would think you were trying to bribe her to do something. thats how lowly she views your actions and presence.
*

Now, what to do about your situation? Let me now explain what happened in my marriage, and hopefully this will shed some light on what you options are.

My wife sounded just like your. unhappy, everything i did was wrong (i couldn't even properly load the dishwasher) and i did everything possible to "keep the peace" by pacifying her, letting her call the shots and so forth.... I walked on egg shells around her not wanting to make her upset....and it did no good anyway....because even if i did tell her my feeling or beliefs.....she would just shut me down and tell me how i was wrong.

she came to me and told me how she was unhappy and wanted to go to MC to which i reluctantly agreed. It turned out to be a good thing, basically the shrink (whom my wife choose) unloaded on her and told her she was completely irrational and her expectations and outlook was all wrong. I was floored. Needless to say, my wife refused to keep going after about 4 sessions....since she couldn't get 
away with blaming life's problems all on me. 

At this point, even though i didn't recognize it at the time... I buried myself in hobbies, sports, activities and found fulfillment with life without my wife. This IS a "180" or detachment as its called around here, even though i never made a concise choice to do so.

this went on for about two years.....and it all came to a stop when i stumbled on to my wife's affair she had been having for the last year.

This is most likely the path you are headed down now......your wife is RIPE for an affair and all it is going to take is the chance meeting of the right person.

I can go on and on about our similarities but its pointless. just know that when i read your posts i nod my head...."yep, personal trainer to boost her ego.....unhappy about the smallest things when there is so much to be thankful for" and so on.

So where did i go wrong and what similiar mistakes are you making?

first, stop blaming yourself. Your wife misery comes from within her...and there is nothing you can do to change that. it's worse than that....if you do try and address it....she will dig in deeper and blame you.

second......STOP catering to her. think of her right now as an adversary. and tell her the truth. Tell her straight out....you don't like who she has become, can't imagine staying married to her and will leave if she doesn't get into counseling immediately, in fact you both should and couples therapy.

third....you have to understand the chances are very slim your wife is going to have a huge change of attitude and beliefs. There could very well be some small victories along the way, but chances are this woman has taken years to grow into the person she is now and the woman you married is long gone and ain't coming back.

I made all the mistakes you are making and say this now from the clarity of being emotionally detached from her and years of looking back at what happened.

My advice to you.....deal with this NOW, firmly....because there is nothing but storm clouds on the horizon you are headed for. You can continue to pacify her and let the cancer grow, or you recognize the dire situation you are in and develop a plan to save you sinking ship, but it is going to take some serious strength on your part and willingness to end the relationship to possibly save it. And even then, you have to recognize this could be over. This could drag on for years, or you could cut the cord and begin a new life without her today.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I'm missing some information. (Or maybe I just skimmed the thread and missed them)

1) What type of business are you in? This is important since you both seem to be involved in the operation.

2) Describe in detail what her parents were like?

3) How is she handling the loss?

4) What kind of a childhood did she have?

5) You do Yoga 8 times a month, not every day? Is that right? Why?

6) How does her physical regiment differ from yours?

7) Does you wife experience orgasm during sex? How intense? Was it more intense during the beginning of marriage?

8) Do you discuss subjects not involving work, daughter, etc?

9) What shows do you watch together? Do you talk about the show?

10) Had she shown interest in religion or spirituality?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Young, you're falling for the same fallacy that everyone has fallen, the compromise fallacy. 

If one side wants 1x a week and the other 3x a week, the happy medium is 2x and everyone is happy.

If one side wants 1x a week and the other 1x a quarter, compromise results in.....

That's right...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree with @john117. Most compromises are not really balanced, and most leave both partners unhappy.

Here is what real compromise looks like: one week we do it every time you want to (which may be not at all) and the next week we do it every time I want to (which might be twice a day or more). That way, each of us is getting exactly the sex life we want, half of the time. I will be very impressed by any LD who is willing to compromise on that basis.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think it is far better to go this route - than the 'shape up or ship out' path suggested below. 

--------
Wife,
You are clearly unhappy. Not sure how to help you. Starting to think you wish we weren't married. If that is due to a core compatibility issue than tell me and we can amicably part ways. 

If however, you think we can find a way to make this marriage work, than let's try and do that. I love you, and I want us BOTH to have a fair shot at being happily partnered. With each other or not.

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x598 said:


> Sunchild15
> 
> I haven't read each and every post here, rather I skimmed through it. But I wanted to share the similarities between your story and mine and i hope this will bring some clarity to you with what you are dealing with....at least in my opinion.
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I think it is far better to go this route - than the 'shape up or ship out' path suggested below.
> 
> --------
> Wife,
> ...


yeah, this is it.

she can't control whether or not she's attracted to you, she just is or isn't, so don't ascribe intentionality to it and don't blame her for that.

by the same token, you can't control that you have desire and you should not need to stifle that. that's not your fault either.

it's nobody's fault, so you don't need to blame each other.

you can preserve the things you still share (e.g., parenting) but go separate ways (if necessary) on the stuff where there is no overlap.

when she sees there is zero pressure on her and you will be cool either way, she may come out of her shell a bit because she won't feel that it is an obligation.

or maybe not. probably not, actually. but it's still OK.

it takes a while to accept that it will be OK either way and you seem to be a long way from this by your posts.

work on getting there and then whatever happens you will be fine.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM i think you missed my point let me clarify something:



> I think it is far better to go this route - than the 'shape up or ship out' path suggested below.
> 
> --------
> Wife,
> ...


i didn't mean the harsh "2x4" to be directed at the OP's wife, rather at the OP to startle him to the reality he is facing.

I actually LIKE what you wrote and if I was in his shoes would use your exact words:thumbup:

the issue here is the OP is trying to nice her out of this, win her back, all the doormat beta guy stuff that most likely contributed to him being here in the first place.

I do not think he (sadly) is prepared to do what is necessary based on his posts, but ts his life. I just hope i can open his eyes a little and save him many wasted years.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The attribution of LD to nice guy is up for discussion... In hardcore LD vs HD couples, the "alpha" guy will more likely cheat or bail, while the "beta" guy will try - usually without success - to nice his way. 

So it's a sequence issue more than anything else...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> The attribution of LD to nice guy is up for discussion... In hardcore LD vs HD couples, the "alpha" guy will more likely cheat or bail, while the "beta" guy will try - usually without success - to nice his way.
> 
> So it's a sequence issue more than anything else...


I think it's impossible to decouple the HD's actions from the LD's LD-ness

You never get to observe the LD outside the relationship as long as you are still in the relationship, so you have no way of knowing how much (if any) of the LD-ness is organic vs situational.

On a macro level, the odds of it being organic (i.e., asexual) are extremely low. The odds of it being situational (i.e., she is just sick of you in particular) are much, much higher.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Op isn't going to do anything. Some people are wired to learn things the hard way.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Or never learn.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I think it's impossible to decouple the HD's actions from the LD's LD-ness
> 
> You never get to observe the LD outside the relationship as long as you are still in the relationship, so you have no way of knowing how much (if any) of the LD-ness is organic vs situational.
> 
> On a macro level, the odds of it being organic (i.e., asexual) are extremely low. The odds of it being situational (i.e., she is just sick of you in particular) are much, much higher.


If you've been with someone for two or three decades you have far better insight. Also the two are not mutually exclusive. Not that it matters what portion each. 

You don't need to be outside the relationship to observe. Women talk, to their daughters for example . I've amassed considerable intelligence from that this summer 

I wouldn't be this confident if I were flying blind.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sunchild, how have things been going? Are you working on any changes?


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## BlueandBlond (Jun 20, 2016)

At the moment, I wouldn't concentrate on the sex part. Your wife has withdrawn from you and the reason why is not known and there could be many reasons. It could be financial stressors (your business), hormonal (since the birth of your daughter), but it is definitely lack of communication and how to talk about it. 

I am on the opposite side of it. My husband hasn't had sex with me in 4 years and only 4 times in 12 years. He would always shut down and blame me. Sound familiar? I am an attractive, fit lady (5'8" and size 4) and take very good care of myself. So, what we are doing after I finally had enough and told him that either we separate or get help together, we are reading a marriage help book and have an appt to see a marriage counsellor. It is actually our second one as the first therapist was crap. 

I think therapy is the way to go but you both have to want to do it and I would back away from sex.....for now. You both (especially your wife) need to start talking and communicating. There are always two sides but you may not know what it is she wants from you.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

You wife knows exactly what she is doing and in how much pain your in.

What consequences have you offered up?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

So I have not been on here for a while, because I have been focused on working on my stuff. Working on my career, my purpose and knowledge on many of these books. Bad News is, nothing has really changed. It is sad, I just do not know what to do at this point, in fact today is my anniversary.

It has given me much to think about.

Its been almost 2 years now with no sex or anything. I have been focused on all of the working on me stuff. Not needing her etc .

I know this probably needs to take some other turns for things to change. The last discussion we had her response was that 
I have it like just because we are married - that I have it my mind that she is the only person I can have sex with because that is my idea of marriage.

Honestly, have not had conversations in a while. because I have been focused on working on me.

Wish I could say something different


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Try the 1800. It's like the 180 except you literally stop interaction with her. And work on finding a good lawyer.

You still run the business together? That needs to end. 

Does she still act depressed?


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## sunchild15 (Jul 4, 2016)

1800, Really? I will look at that. Yes, Business together - but most has shifted over to me handling things.
Yes, she is tired all of the time. Now she has said she is going through meno-pause, she is not having period every few months.
I do not know how long menopause lasts of if libido comes back. She is always tired, or not feeling well, sick or sore or stomach weird.
Its a tough one. I do not want to be inconsiderate to life changes, we hold hands, hug, kiss and talk walks , go for coffee, just not going any further. We both eat organic super healthy and both work out - working on projects talking about future plans, Guess intimacy is not much of a priority ...I do not know .. have been super focused on me building up careeer and purpose driven .. have not even initiated or had the discussion for a while .. crazy, right !


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The 1800 is none of those touchy feely future talking unicorny stuff. Let's see how long she can go without the good stuff...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

sunchild15 said:


> Its been almost 2 years now with no sex or anything.


Just have sex with other people already!

The only reason why you have been in a sexless nominally sexual relationship for almost 2 years, is because you have accepted celibacy.

If you don't like being celibate stop whining about it and go and find someone else to have sex with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Jesus. Just pack your stuff and move out. You only get one life. Don't waste it like this.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

sunchild15 said:


> 1800, Really? I will look at that. Yes, Business together - but most has shifted over to me handling things.
> Yes, she is tired all of the time. Now she has said she is going through meno-pause, she is not having period every few months.
> I do not know how long menopause lasts of if libido comes back. She is always tired, or not feeling well, sick or sore or stomach weird.
> Its a tough one. I do not want to be inconsiderate to life changes, *we hold hands, hug, kiss and talk walks , go for coffee*, just not going any further. We both eat organic super healthy and both work out - working on projects talking about future plans, Guess intimacy is not much of a priority ...I do not know .. have been super focused on me building up careeer and purpose driven .. have not even initiated or had the discussion for a while .. crazy, right !


This is the stuff @john117 is talking about.

Gives her an idea how life is like without you.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I agree with all those who say to detach. This is what you should have done last year. Let her feel the pain of potentially losing you. She may develop an appreciation for you that she never knew she had. She's not going to change herself because you've _enabled_ her by being her constant.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I agree with all those who say to detach. This is what you should have done last year. Let her feel the pain of potentially losing you. She may develop an appreciation for you that she never knew she had. She's not going to change herself because you've _enabled_ her by being her constant.


If nothing changes for her why should she change?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15 said:


> 1800, Really? I will look at that. Yes, Business together - but most has shifted over to me handling things.
> Yes, she is tired all of the time. Now she has said she is going through meno-pause, she is not having period every few months.
> I do not know how long menopause lasts of if libido comes back. She is always tired, or not feeling well, sick or sore or stomach weird.
> Its a tough one. I do not want to be inconsiderate to life changes, we hold hands, hug, kiss and talk walks , go for coffee, just not going any further. We both eat organic super healthy and both work out - working on projects talking about future plans, Guess intimacy is not much of a priority ...I do not know .. have been super focused on me building up careeer and purpose driven .. have not even initiated or had the discussion for a while .. crazy, right !


I've never heard of the "1800", I doubt it exists. What John is talking about is that you go no contact. If you are still working with your wife, that's pretty hard to do.

See the link for the 180 in my signature block below.

The purpose of the 180 that folks are talking about is for the betrayed spouse to pull away emotionally from the wayward spouse until either the wayward spouse ends the affair and agrees to reconcile the marriage; or the betrayed spouse falls out of love, files for divorce and moved on with their life.

I suppose what some are suggesting is that you used it to help you pull away from your wife and eventually move on.

See the link to the 180 in my signature block below.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sunchild15, most of the time, when a spouse withholds sex, it's because their spouse is angry with them. It's a passive aggressive way to punish their spouse for real or imagined things.

What is your wife angry about?

You two work together. What other ways do you spend time together?


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