# I don't see any LDs posting here.



## RobQ (Mar 1, 2015)

As a relative newbee to the forum I may be wrong but I haven't run into any threads or posts by admitted LDs.

My conclusion is that LDs do not think they have a problem or that being LD is a problem and most likely aren't even aware of what is going on in there marriage other than that their spouse has a problem!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RobQ said:


> As a relative newbee to the forum I may be wrong but I haven't run into any threads or posts by admitted LDs.
> 
> My conclusion is that LDs do not think they have a problem or that being LD is a problem and most likely aren't even aware of what is going on in there marriage other than that their spouse has a problem!


Not entirely true, but not entirely false either. 

There are by far more frustrated HD's here than LD's. Because of this, sometimes LD's are overwhelmed by posts from the frustrated HD's seeking to make their pain and anguish known to the LD. Sometimes this is very helpful but too much of this kind of help tends to scare the away. They tend to not stick around for long as a result.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I believe there have been some posts by LDs, but in general you are right that they think it is their partner's problem, not their problem.

Remember the LDs motto: "Sex isn't important!"


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

RobQ said:


> As a relative newbee to the forum I may be wrong but I haven't run into any threads or posts by admitted LDs.
> 
> My conclusion is that LDs do not think they have a problem or that being LD is a problem and most likely aren't even aware of what is going on in there marriage other than that their spouse has a problem!


Why?
Because there are standing orders for them to be shot on sight, without a trial.
I remember one not too long ago. She got slammed so hard, the thread disappeared within minutes.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

UMP said:


> Why?
> Because there are standing orders for them to be shot on sight, without a trial.
> I remember one not too long ago. She got slammed so hard, the thread disappeared within minutes.


Yah, that's just not right.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

check out reddit r/lowlibidocommunity. It's a good place to get the LD perspective.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I have a problem with LD people too (although I am not married to one, I have been with them).

Why, because I think many of them are selfish and controlling and even mean.

But Many of them are not. I don't know about many v.s. most.

We need to hear from these LD people to learn; whatever category they might be in. We shouldn't jump on them and tear them apart lest we send them away.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

technovelist said:


> Remember the LDs motto: "Sex isn't important!"


Yep, that is until they are served with divorce papers. Then some of them have a "come to Jesus" moment.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

RobQ said:


> As a relative newbee to the forum I may be wrong but I haven't run into any threads or posts by admitted LDs.
> 
> My conclusion is that LDs do not think they have a problem or that being LD is a problem and most likely aren't even aware of what is going on in there marriage other than that their spouse has a problem!


Exactly, because things are the way they want them. They made a committment they did not keep and nobody's is holding them to it. As long as it keeps going this way, they think life is fine. Just like if they hired you to do a job and you did it and they didn't pay you. As long as you never ask them to get paid they won't pay you.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I was the LD partner in my marriage. Left to my own devices, I'm a 1-3 times a week person. I had sex much more often than that with my now-ex-husband. I wanted sex much less often than that with him. 

I post here fairly frequently. What I don't do is start threads about the HD/LD mis-match in my marriage. Mostly because I'm no longer married. And also because the man I'm currently in a relationship with has no complaints about my drive. But, I'm happy to answer civil questions or engage in civil discussions of the topic.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

1-3 x per week is normal drive

I think most people in these situations would be fine if they ended up in the 1-3 x week area.

It becomes a crushing problem because the LD is unwilling to compromise to even a normal frequency.

LDs want to pretend that there is no "normal" but that is false.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

UMP said:


> Why?
> Because there are standing orders for them to be shot on sight, without a trial.
> I remember one not too long ago. She got slammed so hard, the thread disappeared within minutes.


:smthumbup: :rofl: :lol: :iagree:


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

RobQ said:


> As a relative newbee to the forum I may be wrong but I haven't run into any threads or posts by admitted LDs.


I've been here 3 years now. In that time I've seen 1 LD guy. In that time it must have been about five women. 



> My conclusion is that LDs do not think they have a problem or that being LD is a problem and most likely aren't even aware of what is going on in there marriage other than that their spouse has a problem!


The only problem they see is that their spouse is unhappy, and possibly mistreating them because of that unhappiness.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Not entirely true, but not entirely false either.
> 
> There are by far more frustrated HD's here than LD's. Because of this, sometimes LD's are overwhelmed by posts from the frustrated HD's seeking to make their pain and anguish known to the LD. Sometimes this is very helpful but too much of this kind of help tends to scare the away. They tend to not stick around for long as a result.


:iagree:
Too bad I can only like it once!

When I was talking about my marriage here, I felt my wife was attacked. She wasn't on the forum, it was just me. It was exactly this, frustrated men lashing out. I felt it was highly unfair. I deleted all if my threads over this. In hindsight I should have reported them. It is only a small subset that caused the issue, most men and nearly all of the women were great. 

Ironically, I can see why these men weren't getting laid, they were a-holes. 

We see the same dynamic over in the infidelity forum. Women who have cheated are attacked. The moderators try to keep it in check, but they can only catch so much. Only the thick skinned stick around.

It's a shame though, in both cases those run off have much insight to offer.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Lila said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Sadly, this thread is a great example of the kind of backlash LD's receive here. This isn't even a thread _started by_ or _discussing _LD issues but the LD bashing is still happening {sigh}.
> 
> If I was an LD person seeking help, there's no way I would ever start a thread under these conditions.


I don't think his post was intended as you interpreted it. It is an observation; sadly accurate, but only an observation. It isn't an endorsement of the behavior. 

Often the acutely observant are called cynics by the less observant.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lila said:


> "Normal" is completely subjective and LD/HD designations are based on whatever the couple decides is "normal". The proof is in Rowan's post.


There's a distribution curve of sexual frequency based mostly on your age that one could use to form a really good definition of "normal". 95% of couples will have sex within two sigma of the average, assuming a Gaussian distribution. 

That seems to me to be a pretty good basis for an argument starting with the word normal.

Doing something different than 19 out of every 20 couples doesn't make you wrong, but it definitely should make you take stock of why you're so far from average. 

By the two sigma definition, using the Kinsey frequency of sex numbers, every single married or partnered demographic below age 50 would still consider 4 or more times a week to be within the range of normal (as of course would be 2-3x). So you can obviously still both want a "normal" frequency of sex and fight about it nonetheless.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

HD partner is not happy, does an interweb search on "Sexless Marriage" and is led here amongst other places

LD partner is perfectly happy with as little as he / she can get away with - no searches. After a while their partner makes it an issue, eventually he / she realizes it is an actual issue and searches something like "how do I get my sex drive back" they are not led here but somewhere else.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

That's what I said lately on other thread. Not only men are guilty here, but every time there is discussion about LD women, there is bunch of HD women complaining about sterotypes, and hijacking the thread towards "women can also be HD". Being LD is just not acceptable on TAM.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Lila said:


> "Normal" is completely subjective and LD/HD designations are based on whatever the couple decides is "normal". The proof is in Rowan's post.
> 
> Rowan has mentioned before that her ex-husband thought normal was >5 x per week. She thought 1-3 x was "normal". So whose normal is the correct one? I say it's both. Her ex was not wrong for desiring sex every day and she's not wrong for wanting it only 1 x a week. It was simply a mismatch.
> 
> No one except the two people in the relationship can define 'normal' and that usually involves compromising.


I can accept that there is a degree of subjectivity, but not complete subjectivity.

There are billions of people in the world and there is a range of normal behavior and drive.

It is relevant to say, "if you won't, your sister will."

LDs want to pretend that they are in their own universe but there are alternatives when the price is too high.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> That's what I said lately on other thread. Not only men are guilty here, but every time there is discussion about LD women, there is bunch of HD women complaining about sterotypes, and hijacking the thread towards "women can also be HD". Being LD is just not acceptable on TAM.


 Oops


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Cletus said:


> There's a distribution curve of sexual frequency based mostly on your age that one could use to form a really good definition of "normal". 95% of couples will have sex within two sigma of the average, assuming a Gaussian distribution.
> 
> That seems to me to be a pretty good basis for an argument starting with the word normal.
> 
> ...


I deeply appreciate your mathematical approach to making your point. 

It seems to me, most people that make sweeping statements such as "there is no such thing as normal" are lacking in math and logical reasoning skills and have lead a sheltered life. 

This is the same group that make sweeping statements such as "there is no such thing as common sense" Yes there is such a thing as common sense. They use cherry-picked anecdotal evidence to support their dopey assertions.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> I deeply appreciate your mathematical approach to making your point.
> 
> It seems to me, most people that make sweeping statements such as "there is no such thing as normal" are lacking in math and logical reasoning skills and have lead a sheltered life.
> 
> This is the same group that make sweeping statements such as "there is no such thing as common sense" Yes there is such a thing as common sense. They use cherry-picked anecdotal evidence to support their dopey assertions.


Of course, there is a flip side too. By using such a broad definition as 95%, those having sex a few times a year to once a month are also very much well within the normal range for every age group. Moreso in fact than those having sex 4 or more times a week. 

Seems the HDs are the real problem here.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Lila said:


> it's the two people that make up the relationship that determine what feels right to them. they are both right. They are both right because that's what feels right to them.


This kind of thinking drives me bananas. Yes I know you don't care. The focus is on everybody gets to be right. It's like assigning blame. It's a gallactically stupid priority to me because it solves nothing. 

Acceptance of that which has potential to be improved is not an admirable nor reasonable approach to problem solving. It's lame acceptance of failure. Nothing great comes from acceptance of that which can be improved. 

I am also not sure accepting a problem is possible and if it is, it sure isn't as easy as working toward a goal. Instead the likely failure of acceptance is creeping resentment which ultimately prevails over trying to fool yourself that you are able to sit back and take it. 

There is also the alternative problem. If there is an alternative, then why accept it. 

If I came to the conclusion no further improvements to an unsatisfying marriage could be made, I would end it. If my spouse said I must accept this is as far as the improvements go when I am still unsatisfied, I am leaving the marriage and the reason will be clearly stated. I wont accept an unsatisfying marriage as the unchangeable status quo.



Cletus said:


> Doing something different than 19 out of every 20 couples doesn't make you wrong, but it definitely should make you take stock of why you're so far from average


This is a responsible approach to problem solving. I train my staff how to problem solve.

1. Gather facts
2. Consider merits and pitfalls of each option
3. Make a choice
4. Implement
5. Evaluate
6. Tweak by going back to #1 with a now smaller problem

What we don't do is refuse to gather facts and say everybody gets to be right and it's just the way it is. There is no progress nor pride in that weak-minded failing nonsense.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think it's pretty obvious when someone is abnormal.

Insisting on sex multiple times a day every day or only allowing sex once every full moon.

If you have an "LD" who still wants it 2x per week and an "HD" who wants it 7x per week, is it really such a difficult compromise for either of them to split the difference and do it 3-4x per week?

It's only difficult when one of them insists it's my way or the highway, which seems to be the common theme of all of these failed relationships.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Of course, there is a flip side too. By using such a broad definition as 95%, those having sex a few times a year to once a month are also very much well within the normal range for every age group. Moreso in fact than those having sex 4 or more times a week.
> 
> Seems the HDs are the real problem here.


No one wants to be below average. Back to the math, as you of all people are well aware there are three averages. I do not have ready access to your source. Would you mind sharing the 

mean 
median 
mode

It seems most everyone upon the decision to marry would hope to be at least average, if not above average in all experiences of their lives if asked that general question. Maybe not. 

Upon finding that they are

1. Unsatisfied
2. Below average

Would a reasonably pragmatic spouse be motivated to investigate the available knowledge on their issue of the day and their options to improve? 

I don't know but I certainly would find it useful information to take into consideration.

I start getting persuaded when I see 65% rather than 95%. I start getting quite persuaded when more than 75% and very persuaded much over 80%+


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> No one wants to be below average. Back to the math, as you of all people are well aware there are three averages. I do not have ready access to your source. Would you mind sharing the
> 
> mean
> median
> mode


I don't have raw data. I was just using the summary data freely available from the Kinsey site, which is sparse. I don't even know if the actual distributions are Gaussian, or how much skew or kurtosis each curve has if it is. It's just a talking point based on a gross simplification.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> I think it's pretty obvious when someone is abnormal.
> 
> Insisting on sex multiple times a day every day or only allowing sex once every full moon.
> 
> ...


Very true until you stretch your accurate point until it breaks. 

What if the examples were more close in the abnormal case and farther apart in the not so hard case. At some point they merge. 

For example, 

is 12 times a year versus 10x per week abnormal?

24 times a year versus 7x per week? 

48 times a year versus 5x per week? 

It gets harder as the examples become less extreme but the farther apart they are the more heated the disagreement. 



Lila said:


> I'm _not_ is in a sexless marriage


I meant no offense to you whatsoever. I apologize for not making it clear I was attacking an opinion you share that is common. I was not attacking you as a person. To me at least, that common approach is deeply disappointing. I disagree with it entirely but it was not personal even though I quoted you for the sake of efficiency. 

You are a member of a large group that has a perspective entirely different than mine. My beef is with your groups approach to problem solving.

Not being a member of an LD marriage, I can clearly see why you would gladly settle on the "okey dokey, oh well, so what, lets all sing koombaya" school of problem solving. 

I don't have that luxury in any area of my life. It sounds lovely, but I would get bored very easily without a challenge and personal responsibility of having to figure things out and fix them instead of just say oh well and shut off the lights. 

Peace to you as well.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

I am LD/asexual, engaged to a HD guy. Through compromising and working together, we have a sex life that makes us both happy.

I don't post here often because the few times I have, I've received some really nasty PMs attacking me and my relationship. It seems like anything I can say or any problems I may ask about are discounted because I am truly LD and just a 'selfish shrew', so I just don't bother anymore. I do lurk and read threads so I know what not to do, but that's about it these days.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I am LD/asexual, engaged to a HD guy. Through compromising and working together, we have a sex life that makes us both happy.
> 
> I don't post here often because the few times I have, I've received some really nasty PMs attacking me and my relationship. It seems like anything I can say or any problems I may ask about are discounted because I am truly LD and just a 'selfish shrew', so I just don't bother anymore. I do lurk and read threads so I know what not to do, but that's about it these days.


Amen. Same here.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Let me get a little personal and share some details of my story.

When my ex and I first got together, our relationship was long distance. We'd only see each other on the weekend, and have sex Friday evening, a couple of times on Saturday, and a couple of times on Sunday before parting again.

One of us thought "sex five times a week is good, but having it all compacted into the weekend is a bit physically uncomfortable without proper recovery time" while the other thought "woohoo, sex twice a day is awesome!" So when we did move in together, there was definitely some adjustment needed to our sex life, and ultimately, the HD-LD disconnect proved to be too much to overcome. It wasn't even about HD-LD in the end, it was about selfishness, laziness and lack of communication, about sex.

Having done much research and analysis after the fact, here are a few things I've come to understand about LD and HD thinking.

HD thoughts go something like this
- sex is very important to me, as essential as breathing and eating
- sex makes me feel good, even if I'm tired
- I like sex when I'm stressed because it relaxes me
- I think about sex a LOT
- not having sex makes me feel unloved
- because they love me, my partner should respect my need to have more sex
- how can everyone not enjoy sex as much as I do?

LD thoughts go something like this
- sex is nice but not essential, it's optional, like dessert
- I don't think about sex unless something reminds me of it
- it's hard to want sex when I'm tired or under stress about something
- being wanted for sex all the time makes me feel used instead of loved
- being coerced or forced into sex when I don't want it makes it feel unpleasant, like a chore
- because they love me, my partner should respect my desire to have less sex
- sex is just not usually as pleasant as everybody makes it out to be


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I am LD/asexual, engaged to a HD guy. Through compromising and working together, we have a sex life that makes us both happy.
> 
> I don't post here often because the few times I have, I've received some really nasty PMs attacking me and my relationship. It seems like anything I can say or any problems I may ask about are discounted because I am truly LD and just a 'selfish shrew', so I just don't bother anymore. I do lurk and read threads so I know what not to do, but that's about it these days.


Post more. We need your perspective.

Also, I think you can turn off PM's so you aren't bothered. Anybody that wants to call you names should have the balls to do so publicly, so we can then ridicule them.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> HD thoughts go something like this
> - sex is very important to me, as essential as breathing and eating
> - sex makes me feel good, even if I'm tired
> - I like sex when I'm stressed because it relaxes me
> ...


So VERY accurate. 

I'll add one more: 

If I'm sick and / or have a headache: Sex will make me feel good for at least a little while.

If I'm sick and / or have a headache: I feel so bad I can't even think of sex right now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I am LD/asexual, engaged to a HD guy. Through compromising and working together, we have a sex life that makes us both happy.
> 
> I don't post here often because the few times I have, I've received some really nasty PMs attacking me and my relationship. It seems like anything I can say or any problems I may ask about are discounted because I am truly LD and just a 'selfish shrew', so I just don't bother anymore. I do lurk and read threads so I know what not to do, but that's about it these days.


If anyone attacks you in a PM, let a moderator know. It's not acceptable for anyone to use PMs to attack another poster.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Let me get a little personal and share some details of my story.
> 
> When my ex and I first got together, our relationship was long distance. We'd only see each other on the weekend, and have sex Friday evening, a couple of times on Saturday, and a couple of times on Sunday before parting again.
> 
> ...


This is awesome and should be a sticky.

Note: HDs may get the wrong idea about the notion of a "sticky", to which I say: get over it!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
To the LD people who are posting: thank you very much, many of us really need to understand how you feel.

My impression from the posts is that for LD people sex is not very important - as one poster said "nice but not essential, like dessert. ". If you have a HD partner, how would you feel about opening the relationship. Sex is important to them, would it be OK for them to get it elsewhere? You may not be hungry, so can they go out for dessert?

I think one of the frustrations of HD people is the sense that the LD partner can ration something that is desperately important to them. This sets up a situation where (often unintentionally) the LD person controls the happiness of the HD person. It is as if you were hungry, but were not allowed to eat without the permission of your partner.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't really consider myself particularly High Drive, just Higher Drive than my wife. I like sex, a lot--but for me opening the relationship would give me no comfort.

While occasionally I do just want to get down and dirty on a physical level, what I crave more is the intimacy involved in it. And I want that from my wife, not someone else.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Let me get a little personal and share some details of my story.
> 
> When my ex and I first got together, our relationship was long distance. We'd only see each other on the weekend, and have sex Friday evening, a couple of times on Saturday, and a couple of times on Sunday before parting again.
> 
> ...


This sounds so much like my marriage. We didn't live together before marriage and when we would be together during the week, usually 3 days or so during the week, we'd have sex multiple times per night. I loved it and thought my husband felt the same, but it changed after marriage. I'm HD and he's LD. Both lists explain us well.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I don't really consider myself particularly High Drive, just Higher Drive than my wife. I like sex, a lot--but for me opening the relationship would give me no comfort.
> 
> While occasionally I do just want to get down and dirty on a physical level, what I crave more is the intimacy involved in it. And I want that from my wife, not someone else.


Not saying this applies to you-- just throwing this out there for consideration.

In politics, when there is a poll comparing a known candidate vs a generic unknown opponent, the known candidate usually wins even if the known candidate has obvious flaws.

I attribute this to a cognitive bias of people to favor knowns vs unknowns (a form of risk aversion).

I'm with you on the intimacy thing, but I wonder why one would crave intimacy with someone who has demonstrated that she is incapable of giving it, as opposed to the vast universe of "unknowns" many of whom could likely blow the doors off the known candidate in a direct comparison.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> To the LD people who are posting: thank you very much, many of us really need to understand how you feel.
> 
> My impression from the posts is that for LD people sex is not very important - as one poster said "nice but not essential, like dessert. ". If you have a HD partner, how would you feel about opening the relationship. Sex is important to them, would it be OK for them to get it elsewhere? You may not be hungry, so can they go out for dessert?
> ...


Yes, *this *is a very good analogy!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Logically, I would think people who gravitate toward a marriage forum are those who value marriage and would like to make one work. Someone who is serially depriving their mate of basic needs would be less likely to show up here and more likely to be off somewhere buttering their own toast.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> To the LD people who are posting: thank you very much, many of us really need to understand how you feel.
> 
> My impression from the posts is that for LD people sex is not very important - as one poster said "nice but not essential, like dessert. ". If you have a HD partner, how would you feel about opening the relationship. Sex is important to them, would it be OK for them to get it elsewhere? You may not be hungry, so can they go out for dessert?


In the beginning of our relationship, when we figured out the drive mismatch and were trying to sort out what to do, this was discussed. Back then, it was sort of an option as a last ditch alternative, but now it's not. My SO has expressed several times that he doesn't _want _to 'go out', he wants me. 



> I think one of the frustrations of HD people is the sense that the LD partner can ration something that is desperately important to them. This sets up a situation where (often unintentionally) the LD person controls the happiness of the HD person. It is as if you were hungry, but were not allowed to eat without the permission of your partner.


Yes, but it does go both ways. I'm not saying every LD person is like this, because I only know how I am, but non sexual, intimate touch is just as important to me as sex is to him (cuddling, walks with him holding hands, etc). Back before we got this sorted out, I felt that MY needs were rationed by him and it was a never ending cycle - I _need_ nonsexual intimacy from him, but was constantly frustrated because he always turned those times into pushing for sex. And he was constantly frustrated because he felt we had many prime opportunities for sex, but I was constantly pushing _away_. 

It wasn't just unbalanced on the HD side, it was unbalanced all over. It was not intentional, but we were both miserable. I never felt like he heard me when I voiced my needs, and he expressed feeling the same way.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

Lila said:


> "Normal" is completely subjective and LD/HD designations are based on whatever the couple decides is "normal". The proof is in Rowan's post.
> 
> Rowan has mentioned before that her ex-husband thought normal was >5 x per week. She thought 1-3 x was "normal". So whose normal is the correct one? I say it's both. Her ex was not wrong for desiring sex every day and she's not wrong for wanting it only 1 x a week. It was simply a mismatch.
> 
> No one except the two people in the relationship can define 'normal' and that usually involves compromising.


If the LD partner can't even be bothered to have sex with the HD partner (as in my case), then they certainly aren't going to make the effort of researching something that they don't consider to be a problem. The only problem the mismatched drive causes for them is having to sit through "the talk" every so often.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Yes, this is a big problem. I think that to many HD people, any physical intimacy feels like it should naturally lead to sex. For LD people I think it often does not.

It could work. I am happy for cuddling and kissing my wife without it leading to sex AT THAT TIME. When we were sexually active, I would greatly enjoy "casual" cuddling. 

The problem is that when sex becomes rare, the HD person is so sex starved that any cuddling is just pure frustration.

Normally it is nice to walk into a chocolate shop even if you are not buying anything just to see and smell the chocolate. If you are starving though, it would just be misery - whetting the appetite for something you cannot have. 

I fully understand that mismatched desires is miserable for hte LD partner as well.

What to do? The HD person can't make themselves not want sex - except maybe through anger. The LD person can't make themselves want sex.

That is why I brought up an open marriage - it s far from the best answer, but it is an answer. (It is quite possible that someone would turn it down out of fear of hurting their partner's feelings. ) I know my wife would hate it, so I couldn't accept the suggestion even if she offered.









EntirelyDifferent;12283114
snip
I [I said:


> need[/I] nonsexual intimacy from him, but was constantly frustrated because he always turned those times into pushing for sex. And he was constantly frustrated because he felt we had many prime opportunities for sex, but I was constantly pushing _away_.
> 
> snip


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> To the LD people who are posting: thank you very much, many of us really need to understand how you feel.
> 
> My impression from the posts is that for LD people sex is not very important - as one poster said "nice but not essential, like dessert. ". If you have a HD partner, how would you feel about opening the relationship. Sex is important to them, would it be OK for them to get it elsewhere? You may not be hungry, so can they go out for dessert?
> ...




Why? Why can't you just go and find someone else that is on the same sexual level you are? 

People need to date longer. For real. It's easy for someone in the honeymoon phase to overlook certain things. So HDers might over look some excuses given by their partner for a while. And LDers might be able to "pretend" to be HD for a while. 

But they can't do it forever. Many people get married after 1-2 years of dating. That's waaay too soon. It should be 5 years MINIMUM before even considering marriage. It's MUCH harder to keep up with a HD spouse for 5 years. It's MUCH harder to overlook excuses for 5 years. 

The opening up the marriage idea is just bad and too much involved. Not many would consider it. Why? Because even though your partner doesn't give into sex a lot, he/she may still love you. And even though you're saying it will just be desert....we all know that sex can lead to a lot more than that (babies, STD's, and even falling in love with someone else) not to mention the funds you would have to spend in hotel stays and dinners out in order to have sex with your side partner. 

Just divorce.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

When I joined TAM two years I had been the LD partner for 10 years and wanted to turn it around and was hoping it wasn't too late. 

I got railroaded pretty hard. I was told should get down on my knees and blow him every day for the rest of my life if I expected his forgiveness. I was told that if there was any justice I'd become HD and get rejected so I knew what it felt like. But those folks just sounded hurt to me--most of them, anyway. And they helped me see how lucky I was to still have a husband who hadn't become bitter, who still wanted intimacy with me, not just sex. And I very clearly remember the posters who were kind and encouraging. Some of you are still here 

Of course, when I joined there was an unapologetic LD poster here (LadyoftheLake, I think was her name) who was drawing a lot of the ire of the HD crowd. She talked about training her husband to accept less sex--although I don't recall the details of her method. 

Anyway, I hung in there, and its been an interesting ride. I often feel torn between sympathy for LD partners and understanding for HD partners--because I really do "get it" now, what it's like to be rejected in that way. I've thought about starting threads during times when I was climbing the walls for sex and my husband wasn't keeping up, but I must say I've been afraid of what the backlash would be, so I just suffer in silence 

All I can say it that it's so, so complex. People want to convict one or the other absolutely, or boil it down to being about vows and commitment and put on blinders to the rest. I think folks tend to believe whatever makes them most comfortable with their own choices. Nine times out of ten folks just don't want to do the hard work on themselves--and that goes for LDs and HDs alike. I think LD and HD labels are much less important that the ability to self reflect and listen, really listen, to our partners.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> To the LD people who are posting: thank you very much, many of us really need to understand how you feel.
> 
> My impression from the posts is that for LD people sex is not very important - as one poster said "nice but not essential, like dessert. ". If you have a HD partner, how would you feel about opening the relationship. Sex is important to them, would it be OK for them to get it elsewhere? You may not be hungry, so can they go out for dessert?
> ...


The dessert analogy isn't a perfect one, and this is where it breaks down pretty badly. No matter how little sex you get and how miserable you are because of it, lack of sex won't actually kill you. People can go their whole lives never having sex. You can't say the same thing about food. That's why I specifically said dessert, not all food.

The issue of HD-LD always seems to devolve into justification for cheating. If you swore a vow never to eat dessert with anybody else, then no, no matter how much you really think it would top off dinner perfectly, it would not be permissible to go out and get dessert elsewhere if your spouse didn't want any.

An open relationship is a good solution when there is a LD-HD disconnect. But that requires open communication and absolute trust first, not the lies and deceit of cheating.

However, your analogy of being hungry and not allowed to eat isn't a good one. Being sex-starved is not fatal. Unpleasant, frustrating, etc, perhaps even life-ruining to some, but not fatal.

No one controls your happiness but you.

Let me turn your last paragraph around. One of the frustrations of LD people is always feeling this pressure that all their HD partner's happiness seems to depend solely on something the LD person doesn't enjoy doing very often. It can be very unhappy-making for them.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

GettingIt said:


> When I joined TAM two years I had been the LD partner for 10 years and wanted to turn it around and was hoping it wasn't too late.
> 
> I got railroaded pretty hard. I was told should get down on my knees and blow him every day for the rest of my life if I expected his forgiveness. I was told that if there was any justice I'd become HD and get rejected so I knew what it felt like. But those folks just sounded hurt to me--most of them, anyway. And they helped me see how lucky I was to still have a husband who hadn't become bitter, who still wanted intimacy with me, not just sex. And I very clearly remember the posters who were kind and encouraging. Some of you are still here
> 
> ...



I really agree with that.

I still do believe in the LD/HD problem and that there are true mismatches, but I believe this is the bigger problem on both sides of the mismatch.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I anyone attacks you in a PM, let a moderator know. It's not acceptable for anyone to use PMs to attack another poster.


Now that you're a mod, it's your job to play cleanup :woohoo:


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> When I joined TAM two years I had been the LD partner for 10 years and wanted to turn it around and was hoping it wasn't too late.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> And I very clearly remember the posters who were kind and encouraging. Some of you are still here


:toast:

Hi Getting it



GettingIt said:


> Of course, when I joined there was an unapologetic LD poster here (LadyoftheLake, I think was her name) who was drawing a lot of the ire of the HD crowd. She talked about training her husband to accept less sex--although I don't recall the details of her method.


I tried to be nice to her but it wasn't easy. She had germophobe issues among many other things. I really did feel sorry for her husband.

I most definitely wasn't nice when she railed on a social forum thread about a woman breastfeeding in public and how it was "as disgusting as watching her take a dump"




GettingIt said:


> Anyway, I hung in there, and its been an interesting ride. I often feel torn between sympathy for LD partners and understanding for HD partners--because I really do "get it" now, what it's like to be rejected in that way. I've thought about starting threads during times when I was climbing the walls for sex and my husband wasn't keeping up, but I must say I've been afraid of what the backlash would be, so I just suffer in silence


I'd encourage you to post. SimplyAmorous posts about the same thing and never seemed to get attacked. 

I'm curious about what you mean "keeping up" though? My wife wants in more than me nowadays. She doesn't want it more than a could have sex. She's just bummed that I'm not chasing her as often as she'd like. She's *NEVER* getting shot down though.




GettingIt said:


> All I can say it that it's so, so complex. People want to convict one or the other absolutely, or boil it down to being about vows and commitment and put on blinders to the rest. I think folks tend to believe whatever makes them most comfortable with their own choices. Nine times out of ten folks just don't want to do the hard work on themselves--and that goes for LDs and HDs alike. I think LD and HD labels are much less important that the ability to self reflect and listen, really listen, to our partners.


None of this is simple. Simple labels are lazy. Yes, there are some who truly are LD. Some are repressed. But I suspect that many of the alleged LD spouses are only situationally LD.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
You are absolutely right that people need to date longer, and more importantly they need to be more informed about sex. 

My wife and I dated for years - and yes our sex life was miserable. It simply never occurred to me that it wouldn't get better once we were married. I assumed that everyone had similar sex drives and that the only issue was that she was waiting for marriage. 

When you have spent half a lifetime with someone it is very difficult to leave. 




staarz21 said:


> Why? Why can't you just go and find someone else that is on the same sexual level you are?
> 
> People need to date longer. For real. It's easy for someone in the honeymoon phase to overlook certain things. So HDers might over look some excuses given by their partner for a while. And LDers might be able to "pretend" to be HD for a while.
> 
> ...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> You are absolutely right that people need to date longer, and more importantly they need to be more informed about sex.
> 
> My wife and I dated for years - and yes our sex life was miserable. It simply never occurred to me that it wouldn't get better once we were married. I assumed that everyone had similar sex drives and that the only issue was that she was waiting for marriage.
> ...


Oh I definitely agree here. People absolutely need to move in together and have premarital sex long enough to find out if they are truly compatible before they get married.

Of course, it doesn't always work perfectly. I did that with my ex, and it still didn't work. What I thought was making sacrifices on both our parts, especially when kids came along, and successfully reaching a compromise turned out to be misery for my ex, concealed for years until it became intolerable, by which time there was no fixing it.

It's all about test driving the potential partner ahead of commitment, and communicating OPENLY if you are unhappy.

That's another fundamental problem with HD-LD. Everyone assumes that the way they are is normal, and if the other person isn't compatible, something is wrong with THEM. On top of that, society also encourages the thought that it's the LD person with the problem. And on top of THAT, libido changes with health, hormones and circumstances, which can magnify what were minor mismatches into major ones.

I still don't see HD-LD mismatches as justification for cheating though, no matter the reason for it. Justification for divorce, sure. And there's a major new addition to my list:

HD - If I don't get sex from my spouse, I'd want a divorce
LD - not getting sex is not worth divorcing over


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

staarz21 said:


> Why? Why can't you just go and find someone else that is on the same sexual level you are?
> 
> People need to date longer. For real. It's easy for someone in the honeymoon phase to overlook certain things. So HDers might over look some excuses given by their partner for a while. And LDers might be able to "pretend" to be HD for a while.
> 
> ...


No matter what you do, there are no guarantees. You can date for a long time and still have problems. My husband and I dated for 3 years before getting married and we had a great sex life. It was only after marriage that everything changed and he stopped wanting sex. 3 years is a long time to "fake it" and he was HD during that time prior to marriage. He wanted sex a lot and was the one who initiated most of the time. I don't think he faked it that long, as I know him well and can tell when something is off. A friend dated her husband for 7 years before marriage and they have issues with HD/LD, too. You just have no guarantees no matter what you do. Life changes, situations change, and so on. 

People are here on TAM because they see a problem in their marriage and are looking for help. My husband doesn't see the problem, so he wouldn't come here on his own. I'd rather not just split up my family, if there is anything else that can be done. I want our son to be from an intact family.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> No matter what you do, there are no guarantees. You can date for a long time and still have problems. My husband and I dated for 3 years before getting married and we had a great sex life. It was only after marriage that everything changed and he stopped wanting sex. 3 years is a long time to "fake it" and he was HD during that time prior to marriage. He wanted sex a lot and was the one who initiated most of the time. I don't think he faked it that long, as I know him well and can tell when something is off. A friend dated her husband for 7 years before marriage and they have issues with HD/LD, too. You just have no guarantees no matter what you do. Life changes, situations change, and so on.
> 
> People are here on TAM because they see a problem in their marriage and are looking for help. My husband doesn't see the problem, so he wouldn't come here on his own. I'd rather not just split up my family, if there is anything else that can be done. I want our son to be from an intact family.


I'm not saying it will work for everyone. Obviously, there will still be people who date for along time and encounter these issues. But I think it would certainly help a good portion of people with these issues. 

I am not doubting that the people here are here for help. I am also not saying to break up your marriage and have your son in a split home - obviously work on your issues. I was referring to the poster that suggested an open marriage. I honestly don't see how that would even be better. One partner would likely be hurt and end it anyway - eventually and would likely lead to divorce...so why not just skip all of that drama?

I believe situations change over time but I see too many people just going to the "open marriage", "I'm thinking about getting a prostitute" when things start going downhill. I was more referring to that. 

There is another thread where a man is considering using a prostitute because he and his wife are having issues with sex. I think he said it's been a couple of months. I just don't see how that even remotely would make the situation better. 

I seem to think differently than many here though. 

That's all I was referring to mainly. I should have made my post more clear and I apologize for that.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> No matter what you do, there are no guarantees. You can date for a long time and still have problems. My husband and I dated for 3 years before getting married and we had a great sex life. It was only after marriage that everything changed and he stopped wanting sex. 3 years is a long time to "fake it" and he was HD during that time prior to marriage. He wanted sex a lot and was the one who initiated most of the time. I don't think he faked it that long, as I know him well and can tell when something is off. A friend dated her husband for 7 years before marriage and they have issues with HD/LD, too. You just have no guarantees no matter what you do. Life changes, situations change, and so on.
> 
> People are here on TAM because they see a problem in their marriage and are looking for help. My husband doesn't see the problem, so he wouldn't come here on his own. I'd rather not just split up my family, if there is anything else that can be done. I want our son to be from an intact family.


Unfortunately, based on my observations and reading these threads for 3 years, I have to agree.

It is more of roulette wheel. spin the wheel and see what you get. And I don't mean that in a trite way. of course we have to be careful. of course we need to get to REALLY know the person. of course we need to think rationally.

But in the end, people change and that's the variable we cannot control. I've never seen stats on dating length/marriage success, but I' gonna bet five bucks now there's not much correlation.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I found a link which actually discusses this empirically.

The results are very mixed and the data/discussion isn't presented very well by the writer, but it seems to be saying the ideal dating period is 2 years 4 months. 

It seems that the short term daters have more issues, and surprisingly, the long term daters also have greater issues and result in more divorces.

Marriage Success Related To How Long You Dated | San Diego Family Lawyers | San Diego Divorce Center


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I would bet my last dollar that they are over in LL or MC complaining about something completely ELSE trying to understand why their spouse cannot see how unhappy they are.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Now that you're a mod, it's your job to play cleanup :woohoo:


Wait, what? Elegirl went from banned to moderator in 2 weeks??

Talk about your upward mobility!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

larry.gray;12285322} said:


> I'm curious about what you mean "keeping up" though? My wife wants in more than me nowadays. She doesn't want it more than a could have sex. She's just bummed that I'm not chasing her as often as she'd like. She's *NEVER* getting shot down though.


We've both got some emotional baggage from the bad years, mostly around being gun shy with risking rejection. We've got great communication now, but sometimes that's not enough, believe it or not. So sometimes I'm just afraid to ask him for sex when I just need it right then and there, which sometimes I do. For a few days each month my drive is out of control and every waking thought is about sex. (Uh, is that what it's like for men all the time??) I figure what right do I have to ask him to scratch my itch after what I put him through? So I tend to try and hold out until he initiates, and if he doesn't, I'm climbing the walls after a day or two and in a horrible mood and inevitably I end up taking it out on him, which doesn't exactly put him in the mood. 

Anytime I've been able to bring myself to ask, he's been more than happy to help me out. But it's still not easy. We're working on it, but it's hard to just erase old habits and triggers.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

I am LD, and I've been on these boards for a couple of years. I like to express the other side of the HD/LD debacle because these boards can be hostile to people like us. I get that maybe they are so frustrated that it spills over onto others. The Internet is anonymous for the most part, I feel free in expressing myself here more than irl.

At one point it was suggested that there should be an LD section, I support this. Many threads were abandoned by the LD person who started them because they would get such hostile feedback from bitter HDs of both genders. Then threads started by HDs would be so supportive and go on forever. 

Most LDs lurk until we find a thread which is actually welcoming our input such as this. TAM is dominated by HDs, but if they would just care to listen to us maybe they can get another viewpoint so it would help them. Ranting amongst like minded people just keep you in the same place in life.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

For me, being a HD adventurous guy married to a loving LD vanilla wifee, I could compromise to the following:

- sex 3 to 4x week
- sex every 2nd day
- on non sex days, romance time, cuddling, doing things together, walks, everything non sexual
- on sex days, its a physical and sexual day and sometimes more than once, maybe multiple times.

But my experience has told me, its the LD way or the highway. My sex every day or compromise every second day doesn't happen and its more when Mrs.CuddleBug wants sex, which isn't that much from a LD.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

techmom said:


> I am LD, and I've been on these boards for a couple of years. I like to express the other side of the HD/LD debacle because these boards can be hostile to people like us. I get that maybe they are so frustrated that it spills over onto others. The Internet is anonymous for the most part, I feel free in expressing myself here more than irl.
> 
> At one point it was suggested that there should be an LD section, I support this. Many threads were abandoned by the LD person who started them because they would get such hostile feedback from bitter HDs of both genders. Then threads started by HDs would be so supportive and go on forever.
> 
> Most LDs lurk until we find a thread which is actually welcoming our input such as this. TAM is dominated by HDs, but if they would just care to listen to us maybe they can get another viewpoint so it would help them. Ranting amongst like minded people just keep you in the same place in life.



If you don't mind, please let me know why you are LD, your experiences, reasons, and solutions. I'm always trying to learn about why a LD is LD and what I can do, thx.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would bet my last dollar that they are over in LL or MC complaining about something completely ELSE trying to understand why their spouse cannot see how unhappy they are.


:iagree: 

HDs see the sex as the major problem, the LD see other problems as more important.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Although in hindsight I understand why I was LD with my husband for 10 years, it's not as simple as blaming it all on the resentment that we both built up. 

I was HD for the 11 years while we dated, so it's not like we didn't know each other sexually. 

But once the sex issues started, it all sort of snowballed. I lost my drive after having a baby. By the time it might have come back, the lack of sex had already started to cause issues in our marriage that ran like a runaway train for a decade. 

I suspect that lack of sex plus new parenthood probably caused my husband to not be at his best during my postpartum LD period. His attitude probably didn't do much to bring back my libido. I had two babies in two years, had suddenly become a SAHM, we had just moved, he had a new, stressful job, etc, etc, etc. No, I wasn't feeling sexy. And by the time my drive came back, I had lost attraction for him and there we sat for years and years and years. 

But I know there have been hormonal ups and downs, too. Even during the bad years, for two or three days a month I'd get a surge of hormones that would make my drive stronger than my resentment. Now that my resentment has been dealt with, my drive is pretty strong all the time, but for a few days a month it's so strong that it's a distraction and not at all comfortable. I'm reduced to tears if I can't have sex. 

I think a woman's drive is so complex and different from a man's--at least mine is. I actually feel sorry for my husband because his doesn't change much and mine is all over the place. The only solution is really, really clear and honest communication. So many HD men come here looking for "the key." There just isn't one. Heck I can't really rely on or predict my drive all that well. I work to keep it as high as my husband's without overshooting his too much, and that's about the best I can do.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RobQ said:


> As a relative newbee to the forum I may be wrong but I haven't run into any threads or posts by admitted LDs.
> 
> My conclusion is that LDs do not think they have a problem or that being LD is a problem and most likely aren't even aware of what is going on in there marriage other than that their spouse has a problem!


When HD/LD threads that pop up there's a lot of name calling but it's rare to see anyone attempt try to understand the context of other posters. We're too busy saying "yea but ... something nasty ...".

Ironically some LDs are having a lot more sex than some of the HDs because those are relative terms. The bottom line is that context matters so no two HDs are the same and no two LDs are the same.

So there are many conclusions. Sometimes it's the one you've reached. But it's specific to the relationship.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> For me, being a HD adventurous guy married to a loving LD vanilla wifee, I could compromise to the following:
> 
> - sex 3 to 4x week
> - sex every 2nd day
> ...


That's not much of a compromise, depending on your age. If you're over 50, having sex four times a week puts you at about the 96th percentile or higher for a married couple. Only 1 in 5 18-24 year olds are doing it that often. 

Sounds like you've gotten a pretty good deal on the compromise.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

techmom said:


> I am LD, and I've been on these boards for a couple of years. I like to express the other side of the HD/LD debacle because these boards can be hostile to people like us. I get that maybe they are so frustrated that it spills over onto others. The Internet is anonymous for the most part, I feel free in expressing myself here more than irl.
> 
> At one point it was suggested that there should be an LD section, I support this. Many threads were abandoned by the LD person who started them because they would get such hostile feedback from bitter HDs of both genders. Then threads started by HDs would be so supportive and go on forever.
> 
> Most LDs lurk until we find a thread which is actually welcoming our input such as this. TAM is dominated by HDs, but if they would just care to listen to us maybe they can get another viewpoint so it would help them. Ranting amongst like minded people just keep you in the same place in life.


Techmom, I really would welcome your viewpoint on why an LD spouse in a relatively new marriage like mine (just over 2 years) would think it's acceptable to go for six months without sex. Do you think that it's unreasonable of me to expect my LDH to have sex with me on a regular basis. It seems like he became LD on the day we got married. I feel unloved, unwanted, rejected and humiliated on a daily basis. When I have spoken to him about this, he admits that it must be emotionally painful for me and claims to love me "with a passion" - how can I believe him when he says this? By the way, it's not something I bring up often as I really don't want to be a nagging wife and when I do approach the subject, I do so in a caring and sensitive manner. I'm not an angry person, I don't use words to hurt him in any way. I've told him that this lack of sex is hurting me every single day. There are days when I feel like screaming out loud but I carry on being as cheerful and well adjusted as I can (I'm a much more positive and cheerful person than he is) and this makes me feel like I'm living a lie. Sex two of three times a week would have made such a huge difference to me - instead, I'm constantly feeling at the end of my tether and for me, the marriage is over. I really would welcome the viewpoint of an LD spouse to see where I've gone so badly wrong in my marriage.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Wait, what? Elegirl went from banned to moderator in 2 weeks??
> 
> Talk about your upward mobility!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYcqToQzzGY


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> A I lost my drive after having a baby. By the time it might have come back, the lack of sex had already started to cause issues in our marriage that ran like a runaway train for a decade.
> 
> I suspect that lack of sex plus new parenthood probably caused my husband to not be at his best during my postpartum LD period. His attitude probably didn't do much to bring back my libido. I had two babies in two years, had suddenly become a SAHM, we had just moved, he had a new, stressful job, etc, etc, etc. No, I wasn't feeling sexy. And by the time my drive came back, I had lost attraction for him and there we sat for years and years and years.
> 
> But I know there have been hormonal ups and downs, too. Even during the bad years, for two or three days a month I'd get a surge of hormones that would make my drive stronger than my resentment.


You just basically described my marriage. 

And yes, at least for me, I am up for it basically constantly. 

I think it's great that you've actually contemplated how frustrating this can be. Not an easy thing to comprehend if that is not your nature.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

doobie said:


> Techmom, I really would welcome your viewpoint on why an LD spouse in a relatively new marriage like mine (just over 2 years) would think it's acceptable to go for six months without sex. Do you think that it's unreasonable of me to expect my LDH to have sex with me on a regular basis. It seems like he became LD on the day we got married. I feel unloved, unwanted, rejected and humiliated on a daily basis. When I have spoken to him about this, he admits that it must be emotionally painful for me and claims to love me "with a passion" - how can I believe him when he says this? By the way, it's not something I bring up often as I really don't want to be a nagging wife and when I do approach the subject, I do so in a caring and sensitive manner. I'm not an angry person, I don't use words to hurt him in any way. I've told him that this lack of sex is hurting me every single day. There are days when I feel like screaming out loud but I carry on being as cheerful and well adjusted as I can (I'm a much more positive and cheerful person than he is) and this makes me feel like I'm living a lie. Sex two of three times a week would have made such a huge difference to me - instead, I'm constantly feeling at the end of my tether and for me, the marriage is over. I really would welcome the viewpoint of an LD spouse to see where I've gone so badly wrong in my marriage.


All I can say is that LDs sometimes are affected by the "new relationship hormones" which causes thm I desire sex more frequently. I know I did, and my hubby took that to mean that he met his match sexually. The PEA hormones decrease in about 3 years after a new relationship, then the sex drive returns to normal. 

LDs are caught by surprise when this happens, we think we met the person who can turn our crank only for it to end. It leaves us high and dry. LDs are not out to "trap" HDs into marriage. This situation is just as stressful, at least it is for me.

Having a person that you love doubt your relationship because you don't want this one thing as much as they do is heartbreaking. HDs frown on "duty sex", they want us to want it as much as them. But just beacause we can't make you want it less does not mean we have to force ourselves to want it more. You have to accept our gift of making love just for you just as you want us to accept your HD.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> You just basically described my marriage.
> 
> And yes, at least for me, I am up for it basically constantly.
> 
> I think it's great that you've actually contemplated how frustrating this can be. Not an easy thing to comprehend if that is not your nature.


I think the hardest thing for a lot of people here to accept is that they cannot change their partner, they can only change themselves. Sometimes, with a lot of work, changes you make in yourself are enough to cause a shift in your marriage for the better, but without self-reflection and acknowledgment from your partner, you are carrying the load. Every time things fall off the tracks, you alone are on the hook again to try to make things better by working on yourself. It can be lonely. 

I think my story has a happy ending because I went to my husband and I told him I was sorry for not paying attention all the times he told me that lack of sex and intimacy was a problem. I'd dismissed his pain because I didn't comprehend how it was affecting him. I told him that I was going to fix it, and I did. I didn't give him a list of things he had to fix in himself before I'd start to have sex with him again. I was extremely lucky that he wasn't so far gone in bitterness and anger that he just took the sex and didn't care about reconnecting with me emotionally. 

But so many folks who come to TAM--LD and HD alike--seem to be operating solo. They want to try and figure out their partner in the hopes of getting them to change. Unless you can work together somehow, improvements just aren't as sustainable because your partner isn't "in on" the plan. If I would have just started to initiate lots of sex with my husband out of the blue, I'm not sure what he would have thought, lol. Talking to him about what had gone wrong with our sex lives really brought us closer.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> All I can say is that LDs sometimes are affected by the "new relationship hormones" which causes thm I desire sex more frequently. I know I did, and my hubby took that to mean that he met his match sexually. The PEA hormones decrease in about 3 years after a new relationship, then the sex drive returns to normal.
> 
> LDs are caught by surprise when this happens, we think we met the person who can turn our crank only for it to end. It leaves us high and dry. LDs are not out to "trap" HDs into marriage. This situation is just as stressful, at least it is for me.
> 
> Having a person that you love doubt your relationship because you don't want this one thing as much as they do is heartbreaking. HDs frown on "duty sex", they want us to want it as much as them. But just beacause we can't make you want it less does not mean we have to force ourselves to want it more. You have to accept our gift of making love just for you just as you want us to accept your HD.


This post is actually the best explanation of LD that I've read, that seems believable and sympathetic to me. Thanks for sharing this. I can actually understand how frustrating it would be to perceive yourself as giving a gift to your spouse and have them not appreciate it.

Obviously, the presumption here is that the gift is given lovingly. 

It is still a hard thing to accept that your spouse simply isn't as attracted to you as you are to her, but I can imagine accepting a loving, giving attitude of this sort if everything else in the relationship was good.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

intheory said:


> I'm in favor of respecting an LD's perspective.
> 
> But I don't see how RobQ said anything even remotely like LD's ought to get "shot on sight, without a trial".
> 
> Am I missing something?


I think he meant that when a LD person starts a thread asking for help, they usually get slammed by the HD people of both genders.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening techmom
Please post your viewpoint / feelings on this. Many of us really want to understand better. Some people may lash out at you just because of their ongoing frustration at home, but please try to ignore them. Just see it as an indication of just how big an issue this is to some of us.



techmom said:


> I am LD, and I've been on these boards for a couple of years. I like to express the other side of the HD/LD debacle because these boards can be hostile to people like us. I get that maybe they are so frustrated that it spills over onto others. The Internet is anonymous for the most part, I feel free in expressing myself here more than irl.
> 
> At one point it was suggested that there should be an LD section, I support this. Many threads were abandoned by the LD person who started them because they would get such hostile feedback from bitter HDs of both genders. Then threads started by HDs would be so supportive and go on forever.
> 
> Most LDs lurk until we find a thread which is actually welcoming our input such as this. TAM is dominated by HDs, but if they would just care to listen to us maybe they can get another viewpoint so it would help them. Ranting amongst like minded people just keep you in the same place in life.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> This post is actually the best explanation of LD that I've read, that seems believable and sympathetic to me. Thanks for sharing this. I can actually understand how frustrating it would be to perceive yourself as giving a gift to your spouse and have them not appreciate it.
> 
> Obviously, the presumption here is that the gift is given lovingly.
> 
> It is still a hard thing to accept that your spouse simply isn't as attracted to you as you are to her, but I can imagine accepting a loving, giving attitude of this sort if everything else in the relationship was good.


When everything else in the relationship is good it is easy for the LD to give this gift, and it is easy for the HD to accept this. But many times here on TAM, the HD comes on the board and starts a thread complaining about the sex. With further probing, we find a whole laundry list of issues in the marriage other than the sex. But what brought the HD here in the first place was not the other issues, it was the sex.

This leads LDs to become bitter because it seems that the only thing they want is sex. The HD seems to become proactive about the marriage when there are sex problems. This is what leads to comments like "all you care about is sex".


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Hopeful Cynic
You are correct, food isn't a good analogy 0 you won't die without sex. At the same time dessert is too mild - not getting dessert doesn't leave you feeling depressed and rejected.

Maybe physical touch? How a person would feel if their partner refused to touch them in any way ever? Not physically harmful, but miserably in a marriage?


It is the exclusivity of sex that makes it so unique. I can go eat a chocolate sundae if I want. I can go for a run, read a book, watch a movie - I can fill all of my desires without my spouse - except sex. Monogamy means that I cannot have this without her cooperation and permission. It has put her in a position of controlling my happiness, whether she wants to or not.


One issue I think that is confusing to HD people is this: I do lots of things for my wife - I give her backrubs, go to Jazz concerts (which I hate), take care of her cats etc. I don't do these things because I *have* to, I do them because I actively enjoy making her happy. No trade, no expectation of return. 

What I can't wrap my head around is why she won't do the same for me as far as sex. She doesn't find it horrible - sometimes she wants it. Why is she not happy to do this for me, not as a *chore* but because she enjoys making me happy the same way I enjoy making her happy. 

She has even offered to give me backrubs etc - she is very willing to do other things for me - what makes sex so different. (I'm not talking about PIV which would be uncomfortable if she isn't aroused, but say oral which she knows I love). What makes doing sexual things so unpleasant for a LD person that they would rather do almost anything else? 

Maybe I need to imagine being married to a man? That would make sexual activity very undesirable. Is that sort of the way it feels?





Hopeful Cynic said:


> The dessert analogy isn't a perfect one, and this is where it breaks down pretty badly. No matter how little sex you get and how miserable you are because of it, lack of sex won't actually kill you. People can go their whole lives never having sex. You can't say the same thing about food. That's why I specifically said dessert, not all food.
> 
> The issue of HD-LD always seems to devolve into justification for cheating. If you swore a vow never to eat dessert with anybody else, then no, no matter how much you really think it would top off dinner perfectly, it would not be permissible to go out and get dessert elsewhere if your spouse didn't want any.
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> When everything else in the relationship is good it is easy for the LD to give this gift, and it is easy for the HD to accept this. But many times here on TAM, the HD comes on the board and starts a thread complaining about the sex. With further probing, we find a whole laundry list of issues in the marriage other than the sex. But what brought the HD here in the first place was not the other issues, it was the sex.
> 
> This leads LDs to become bitter because it seems that the only thing they want is sex. The HD seems to become proactive about the marriage when there are sex problems. This is what leads to comments like "all you care about is sex".


Fair point. People experience love in different ways. Some are more attuned to physical expressions. I think what rubs HDs the wrong way is the idea that it's "just sex."


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> When everything else in the relationship is good it is easy for the LD to give this gift, and it is easy for the HD to accept this. But many times here on TAM, the HD comes on the board and starts a thread complaining about the sex. With further probing, we find a whole laundry list of issues in the marriage other than the sex. But what brought the HD here in the first place was not the other issues, it was the sex.
> 
> This leads LDs to become bitter because it seems that the only thing they want is sex. The HD seems to become proactive about the marriage when there are sex problems. This is what leads to comments like "all you care about is sex".


The first time I had The Talk with my wife, she sat, listened in mostly silence and pretty much that was it. Several months later, I had The Talk with her again. This time much more direct about how I felt. I basically told her that our sex life had been in the crapper for years, and I had been pretty unhappy with our marriage that whole time. In return, she told me that she'd actually been VERY happy with our marriage during that time.

In light of that, I've been trying for a while to figure out exactly what problems in our marriage (from her perspective) caused her to stop wanting to have sex. I've asked her what resentments she had etc. "Maybe pitch in a little more in the back yard". She told me that I'd been angry a lot. Well----yeah, I had been the last couple of years, but the issue started long before that.

Don't get me wrong here. I do shoulder some of the blame. I could have stood to have been a little more proactive, a little less edgy over the last couple of years. But when it came down to brass tacks, she told me she had been happy with the marriage, while acknowledging why I had been unhappy.

How am I supposed to reconcile that?

I'm told over and over--give your wife your emotional, domestic and financial support. Be there for her. Communicate, communicate, communicate. I have done this, and more. In return, when I ask my wife why she STILL is not really interested in sex (and yes, she will accommodate me from time to time but that's really all it is) she just looks at me blankly and says "dunno". No interest in exploring it. Won't read books with me. Won't even look at an article.

For crying out loud, I'm not even high drive by this site's standards. All I want is for her to show a little interest now and then.

So when you say that when everything else in the relationship is good, it's easy for the LD, I have to wonder what I'm missing. Please God, somebody clue me in.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> The first time I had The Talk with my wife, she sat, listened in mostly silence and pretty much that was it. Several months later, I had The Talk with her again. This time much more direct about how I felt. I basically told her that our sex life had been in the crapper for years, and I had been pretty unhappy with our marriage that whole time. In return, she told me that she'd actually been VERY happy with our marriage during that time.
> 
> In light of that, I've been trying for a while to figure out exactly what problems in our marriage (from her perspective) caused her to stop wanting to have sex. I've asked her what resentments she had etc. "Maybe pitch in a little more in the back yard". She told me that I'd been angry a lot. Well----yeah, I had been the last couple of years, but the issue started long before that.
> 
> ...


Was she more sexually active before marriage? If so, how was the frequency and for how long were you together before you got married?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> Was she more sexually active before marriage? If so, how was the frequency and for how long were you together before you got married?


Yes. Definitely more active before marriage. We were together 9 years before we got married. The early relationship hormones had long worn off by the time we got married. 

Things had slowed down by the time marriage rolled around as you'd expect. Things tanked completely after kids.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

For an HD person to want sex, there has to be oxygen in the air.

For an LD person to want sex, they need to be well-rested, not burdened by chores, not stressed by their job, finances, family or children, not feeling unattractive, not distracted by hobbies, not already committed to doing something else, be happy with their partner, find their partner attractive, feel valued as a person and not a body, not be too cold or too hot or otherwise physically uncomfortable, be guaranteed not to be interrupted, feeling sexy, not feeling pressured by their partner, be guaranteed it will be a good time with a considerate lover, have their hormones all in a row and think it's their own idea despite the fact that they don't think about sex much. Whatever I forgot and left out is the thing you didn't get right.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

hopeful cynic said:


> for an hd person to want sex, there has to be oxygen in the air.
> 
> For an ld person to want sex, they need to be well-rested, not burdened by chores, not stressed by their job, finances, family or children, not feeling unattractive, not distracted by hobbies, not already committed to doing something else, be happy with their partner, find their partner attractive, feel valued as a person and not a body, not be too cold or too hot or otherwise physically uncomfortable, be guaranteed not to be interrupted, feeling sexy, not feeling pressured by their partner, be guaranteed it will be a good time with a considerate lover, have their hormones all in a row and think it's their own idea despite the fact that they don't think about sex much. Whatever i forgot and left out is the thing you didn't get right.



eureka!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Really i'm not trying to bash my wife, or LD's in general here. Anybody who knows me knows that.

I'm really just very frustrated right now.

I had a discussion with my wife a couple of nights ago that didn't go very well, centered around why she absolutely refuses to initiate sex. Mind you she USED to initiate sex, even up until the last couple of years.

Her response was basically a stonewall. Deal with it.

I'm still pretty angry about it, so I apologize to anyone I've offended over the last couple of days. I might need to take a break until i cool down some more.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Which comes the chicken or the egg? 

It's complete bull that the HD ought to have to fix every flaw the LD perceives in the HDs unappealing behavior before sex is a go with the LD. 

After my wife and I have had a romp I am 500% more than happy to wax the car, mop the floor, slay dragons, throw my favorite coat in a mud puddle so she doesn't get her favorite shoes dirty, etc. 

Every solitary time an HD suffering from soul crushing rejection comes on to this forum, you can count on a half dozen members digging around for ammo to assign blame to the HD for their unattractive behavior. 

It is equally common for the LD to say "I don't know" when asked what the problem is. I believe it. They don't know. They are guessing. Trouble is, most of the time that is the extent of their effort and the guesses are wrong any way because they don't understand their own lack of desire. This is clearly evidenced by an HD doing everything the LD says they want and still getting rejected repeatedly. What HDs find frustrating about that is the period of time they spend chasing these needed improvements for the LD to feel desire ends up not working any more than any other nonsense the LD offers as a solution.

I think the reason that LDs get crucified is they don't care. Who is suffering? The HD. LDs don't care that their HD is suffering? That's not what marriage is about and that is the reason it is so utterly maddening to HDs. 

How do you motivate an HD to meet and LDs needs? Meet the HDs needs for starters. 

WHY DOES THE HD ALWAYS HAVE TO GO FIRST?


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> what rubs HDs the wrong way is the idea that it's "just sex."


:iagree:



Fozzy said:


> "Maybe pitch in a little more in the back yard". She told me that I'd been angry a lot. Well----yeah, I had been the last couple of years, but the issue started long before that. How am I supposed to reconcile that?
> 
> I'm told over and over--give your wife your emotional, domestic and financial support. Be there for her. Communicate, communicate, communicate. I have done this, and more. In return, when I ask my wife why she STILL is not really interested in sex (and yes, she will accommodate me from time to time but that's really all it is) she just looks at me blankly and says "dunno". No interest in exploring it. Won't read books with me. Won't even look at an article.
> 
> So when you say that when everything else in the relationship is good, it's easy for the LD, I have to wonder what I'm missing. Please God, somebody clue me in.


Exactly, I feel your pain. No $hit. Seriously. It's crap. 

"I dunno" See my previous post. They don't know and don't care. WTF? You have to give up your time with kids, your house, your marriage or sex. Make your choice and don't expect any sympathy from the spouse that LOVES you. Yea OK :scratchhead:



Hopeful Cynic said:


> For an LD person to want sex, they need to be well-rested, not burdened by chores, not stressed by their job, finances, family or children, not feeling unattractive, not distracted by hobbies, not already committed to doing something else, be happy with their partner, find their partner attractive, feel valued as a person and not a body, not be too cold or too hot or otherwise physically uncomfortable, be guaranteed not to be interrupted, feeling sexy, not feeling pressured by their partner, be guaranteed it will be a good time with a considerate lover, have their hormones all in a row and think it's their own idea despite the fact that they don't think about sex much. Whatever I forgot and left out is the thing you didn't get right.


Gee, I Cant imagine where the anger is coming from or why their is ALWAYS the blame shifting question "what did you do wrong HD to turn off your spouses libido?" It's utterly ridiculous and mind-numbingly consistent. 

How about posing this question every time instead. "Hello HD, Knowing you told your LD your issue, what has your LD done to address it?" The answer. Take some wild uninformed guesses and blow it off. No doc visit, no research no reading. Nada. Zilch. Zippa. Nuttin. That's what. 

OK Stop asking please. That's the answer. Take it from there so the body of knowledge can progress past blaming it on the HDs actions. 



Fozzy said:


> I'm really just very frustrated right now.
> 
> I had a discussion with my wife a couple of nights ago that didn't go very well, centered around why she absolutely refuses to initiate sex. Mind you she USED to initiate sex, even up until the last couple of years.
> 
> ...


Feel your pain. I am sorry your are suffering like that with absolutely nothing to work with to address it. It's not you.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

What Are My Options said:


> WHY DOES THE HD ALWAYS HAVE TO GO FIRST?


Because having sex with someone who doesn't want it is called rape.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Hopeful Cynic
I think that depends on what is meant by "doesn't want". That phrase covers a range of feelings from neutral, to "would rather die". 

In one sense you are completely correct - forcing / coercing someone to have sex is rape.

OTOH people can adjust their "wants". I don't really want to go to work, but they pay me so it is a job, not slavery. If I really *didn't want" to work and I was forced at gunpoint, it would be slavery. 

I think what mystifies HDs is understanding why LDs do not want sex so strongly. We know that they love us, would do all sorts of other things for us, so why not this?

If my wife wants a massage, I give her one. If she said she was horny and just wanted quick oral sex, I would do it. The cat's litter box smell makes her gag, so I clean it for her. How are those things somehow different from her giving me sex if I want it? 





Hopeful Cynic said:


> Because having sex with someone who doesn't want it is called rape.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is why LDs don't post. We hear enough of this from our HD spouse. We come here to express our view and defend ourselves so we won't get blasted like this. 

If you are angry at your wife, have this discussion with her. I hear this every few days if I don't put out. Or when I do put out, it is not good enough because I don't desire it as much as he does. It is a lost cause.

You think that LDs don't have it rough, well I got news for you. Being accused of everything from cheating to being gay is not fun. Having to put out to someone who will rage at you if you don't is not cool either. No fun. If you think that you don't rage out at your wife but hold it in, your wife still senses it. And it kills her libido.

The OP asked why we don't post, and there were some posters who said that we don't care. Well we do, but we don't want to get blasted every time we post.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Still trying to find a common language. Not food. Not dessert. 

Let me try another. Lets say you are not able to get a job yourself (no work visa for example), and your spouse decides that they don't like working. They have a marketable skill doing a normal job, but they don't want to. Would it be reasonably to be unhappy "just about money"?

Sadly there may be no common ground. Maybe HDs and LDs experience sex so differently that each cannot imagine how the other feels. Each believes that the other is being unreasonable. 

The LD wonders why the HD is so upset about missing this one little thing.

The HD wonders why the LD would not do just this one little thing for them that would make their lives wonderful.

If only children were taught about this issue in sex-ed, the world would be so much happier.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Lust, romance, and attachments are connected yet separate drives. Everyone has a different level of what they need. These drives are all connected to the reward system, and an LD spouse may have less dopamine when it comes to sexual need, while a HD spouse will have a higher need. It is the same with extroverts need more social connections than introverts, thus introverts are less motivated to be social.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One of the problems I see in this discussion and other discussion on this topic is that it's simplified to a point that all low-sex/no-sex marriages are lumped into some HD/LD paradigm that says that the LD person is somehow broken when it comes to sex. It looks at the issue as basically they are LD ... like asexual or just about asexual.

It's not that simple. But we never get to have the discussions here because anyone who is in a place in their life/relationship where they are not wanting sex is attacked.

If people would allow those people to talk, and would listen to them, some people might just start to realize that there just might be a way to solve the sexlessness in their marriage.

Most marriages that are low-sex/no-sex are that way because there are problems in the marriage and the one withholding sex is harboring anger/resentment to the point of not wanting to be sexual. Fix the marriage and the sex life is fixed.

And of course there are some people who are actually LD.

This is not a one size fits all problem.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Hopeful Cynic
> I think that depends on what is meant by "doesn't want". That phrase covers a range of feelings from neutral, to "would rather die".
> 
> In one sense you are completely correct - forcing / coercing someone to have sex is rape.
> ...


When HDs make statements like this it puzzles us, because you would want your wife to show desire during sex correct? She wouldn't have to show desire for going to work everyday or cleaning the cat's litter box. If she treated sex like another job she does for you it would not satisfy you, hence the aversion to "duty sex".

When you make statements like this it leads us to believe it is "just getting your rocks off".


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> The first time I had The Talk with my wife, she sat, listened in mostly silence and pretty much that was it. Several months later, I had The Talk with her again. This time much more direct about how I felt. I basically told her that our sex life had been in the crapper for years, and I had been pretty unhappy with our marriage that whole time. In return, she told me that she'd actually been VERY happy with our marriage during that time.
> 
> In light of that, I've been trying for a while to figure out exactly what problems in our marriage (from her perspective) caused her to stop wanting to have sex. I've asked her what resentments she had etc. "Maybe pitch in a little more in the back yard". She told me that I'd been angry a lot. Well----yeah, I had been the last couple of years, but the issue started long before that.
> 
> ...


I am trying to say this in a helpful way. If all of the above is true, then she is just not attracted to you. This is a painful thing to accept, but I think you have to accept it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> One of the problems I see in this discussion and other discussion on this topic is that it's simplified to a point that all low-sex/no-sex marriages are lumped into some HD/LD paradigm that says that the LD person is somehow broken when it comes to sex. It looks at the issue as basically they are LD ... like asexual or just about asexual.
> 
> It's not that simple. But we never get to have the discussions here because anyone who is in a place in their life/relationship where they are not wanting sex is attacked.
> 
> ...


I agree with this mostly, but I think there is still a built in assumption that it's up to the HD to "fix it" then the sex will come.

My experience has been that it is a mutually reinforcing cycle: no sex leads to resentment, which leads to poor treatment of the LD, which leads to further denial of sex, which leads to more resentment, etc.

It's not realistic for one partner to fix it. In reality, both need to come toward the other simultaneously to create a mutually positive cycle.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think most LD is caused by chemical (hormones) issues, which I would bet is Fozzy's situation and situational where the "HD" has tanked his/her attractiveness due to repeat offenses in the marriage that were likely never communicated by the "LD".

I still believe that true LD is not very common and there is a deeper underlying cause that results in a lack of sex.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

For those wondering why they have to make the first move, that's easy. You are the one that sees a problem. This is true foe almost every other situation besides sex.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> When HDs make statements like this it puzzles us, because you would want your wife to show desire during sex correct? She wouldn't have to show desire for going to work everyday or cleaning the cat's litter box. If she treated sex like another job she does for you it would not satisfy you, hence the aversion to "duty sex".
> 
> When you make statements like this it leads us to believe it is "just getting your rocks off".


To extend the analogy, there is a difference between an employee who has a bad attitude and has to be forced to do everything and even then puts in minimum effort and an employee who has a good attitude, anticipates needs and meets them without explicit instruction, etc.

Neither of these employees would continue to work without pay, but one does the job well, one does not.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

techmom said:


> All I can say is that LDs sometimes are affected by the "new relationship hormones" which causes thm I desire sex more frequently. I know I did, and my hubby took that to mean that he met his match sexually. The PEA hormones decrease in about 3 years after a new relationship, then the sex drive returns to normal.
> 
> LDs are caught by surprise when this happens, we think we met the person who can turn our crank only for it to end. It leaves us high and dry. LDs are not out to "trap" HDs into marriage. This situation is just as stressful, at least it is for me.


Thank you for posting this, Techmom. I had never heard of PEA hormones prior to your post. This would explain a lot about the, so called, "bait and switch" Which, really wouldn't be a bait and switch, at all...Just normal human hormonal fluctuations. 

*For better or worse, after a certain period of eighteen months to four years the body builds up a tolerance to the effects of PEA and related hormones. The hormones just don’t deliver like they did before with the other person.*

Biotype System - Article

Sorry for your frustrations as well.

ETA: I guess the "trick" would be to get those loving feeling back to trigger the PEA hormones once again?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think the hormone thing is why a lot of the advice for men in these situations is to lift weights, dress better and act more masculine. It is essentially trying to trigger a new hormonal burst in your wife as if you were a new man.

One daunting aspect of this strategy is the idea that you must always be improving and demonstrating your masculinity in new ways to hold her attention. It can make you feel a bit like a dancing bear. This feeling can be overcome by the fact that these improvements benefit you even absent any response from her.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Not necessarily, since men have admitted to losing attraction to their wives also. The flip side is she needs cosmetic surgery, creams, and other products to keep her man interested.

There are couples that are capable of bringing back the romantic love that increase their libido. Dopamine is also another hormone needed for sexual excitement. Tyramine, a compound found in chocolate, has some similar effects to dopamine. That is why chocolate is a known aphrodisiac. It helps boost libido.

My friends parents are in their mid-forties, and they keep the romance alive by exploring new activities together. Just within the last year, they learn how to ride motorcycles together, they go explore new places together, and they are fun to be around. Plus she is hot, and I had a crush on her since I was 15.

In the romantic stage, lots and lots of dopamine is released. You can increase your attractiveness, and that will produce biological effects as well. Just having a lot of fun as a couple can increase the sex.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Not necessarily, since men have admitted to losing attraction to their wives also. The flip side is she needs cosmetic surgery, creams, and other products to keep her man interested.
> 
> There are couples that are capable of bringing back the romantic love that increase their libido. Dopamine is also another hormone needed for sexual excitement. Tyramine, a compound found in chocolate, has some similar effects to dopamine. That is why chocolate is a known aphrodisiac. It helps boost libido.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Keeping things fun and interesting helps a lot. 

I believe boredom is a libido killer...


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think most LD is caused by chemical (hormones) issues, which I would bet is Fozzy's situation and situational where the "HD" has tanked his/her attractiveness due to repeat offenses in the marriage that were likely never communicated by the "LD".
> 
> I still believe that true LD is not very common and there is a deeper underlying cause that results in a lack of sex.


I am someone who is truly LD... No CSA, no hormone issues, etc.
And I would agree with the idea that it's pretty rare. I lurk a lot here. I read lots of threads by HD people, and none of their spouses ever really sound like me. 

Once I found out what the problem was (and it DID take SO packing to leave to finally figure it out), I wanted to fix it.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

techmom said:


> richardsharpe said:
> 
> 
> > Good evening Hopeful Cynic
> ...


That makes sense to me.

Comparing sex to gross chores like cleaning the cat box? You want your wife to approach having sex with you to be something distasteful but necessary, like doing the litterbox?

It's that attitude that makes LDs not want sex because it implies you consider your orgasm more important than their feelings. Nobody is attracted to someone who exhibits zero respect for them.

There are a lot of articles out there about consent, particularly 'enthusiastic consent.' The thinking is that sex between two people should be something they do WITH each other, enthusiastically, for mutual pleasure. If you don't have enthusiastic consent, you probably shouldn't proceed. If you proceed anyways, what you have is a partner who feels they are doing this FOR you, not WITH you.

When I read threads like this, it always seems like the HD person is after any sort of consent, no matter how reluctant or coerced it may be. That makes the LD person feel like sex is all about making the HD person feel good and the LD person's pleasure is irrelevant. Again, the 'sex as something done FOR the HD person, not mutually satisfying' idea. Do that often enough, and yeah, sex feels like a chore just like the litterbox.

In my (now-dead) marriage, we went through phases where we were each the LD or HD person, based on fluctuating health and circumstances. And I say those as 'higher' and 'lesser' not high or low, because I think we were fundamentally both around average. When I was the LD, I had sex anyway because I loved my partner despite feeling pressured. But I couldn't understand why my ex didn't sense my reluctance or care about my feelings. I felt used like a piece of meat, completely disrespected. I told my partner what I wanted different and was ignored (or even belittled). When I was the HD I got "no, no, you don't have to" responses no matter what I tried to do to elicit enthusiasm. I backed off and dealt with my disappointment, because I respected my partner's reluctance and wasn't going to beg or push. I had married 'for better or for worse' and loved my partner even if I wasn't getting the sex I wanted. Unfortunately, it turned out that my partner had married 'till someone better came along' and I ought to have sensed that selfishness all along.

Ultimately, I believe that a loving and respectful relationship entails having sex as much as the LD person wants, the lowest common denominator. Asking them to treat it like a chore will not make them fundamentally 'want' it. If it's still not enough for the HD person, break up (respectfully). Personally, I will not endure anything that isn't enthusiastic consent anymore. I'd rather be alone than used or ignored.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

intheory said:


> Although I don't see many higher drive wives here; there are enough of us to reassure me that I'm not some freak of the universe. A woman whose husband can kind of take-it-or-leave-it. And as women we are aware of the stereotypes (which are stereotypes for a reason, btw), that men are just dying for sex. Any moderately attractive woman can "walk into a bar and leave with someone to fµck in about 20 minutes tops". :crazy:<<<Paraphrasing a statement I've seen here on TAM, and heard elsewhere in society.


Just wanted to bring up this thread that I think had some good discussion on it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/236514-women-whats-your-sex-drive-like.html


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening techmom
the gap is so tremendously wide - HDs and LDs have such a wildly different perception of sex that it is almost impossible to think about how to bridge it.

It really isn't about "getting your rocks off". Men and many women can get an orgasm whenever they fell like it with their hands / vibrators / toys. In fact modern sex toys are available in a wide variety of shapes, textures,etc - they can feel as good or better than the real thing. It is not the physical sensations that matter.

The other big gap is "showing desire". I enjoy pleasing my wife - sexually and in other ways. It makes me happy when I come hope with a bouquet of roses and she smiles. Getting roses isn't a "chore", I enjoy doing it for the anticipation of her happiness. Same if I give her a massage, send her a love not, buy her a bit of jewelry. On the rare occasions she wants one, I enjoy doing her a sexual favor. 

When you love someone, don't you enjoy making them happy, even if you don't particularly enjoy the action itself? Isn't love about each trying to make other as happy as possible?

Maybe this is part of the issue - rejection of sex feels like a rejection of love. 




techmom said:


> When HDs make statements like this it puzzles us, because you would want your wife to show desire during sex correct? She wouldn't have to show desire for going to work everyday or cleaning the cat's litter box. If she treated sex like another job she does for you it would not satisfy you, hence the aversion to "duty sex".
> 
> When you make statements like this it leads us to believe it is "just getting your rocks off".


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening techmom
> the gap is so tremendously wide - HDs and LDs have such a wildly different perception of sex that it is almost impossible to think about how to bridge it.
> 
> It really isn't about "getting your rocks off". Men and many women can get an orgasm whenever they fell like it with their hands / vibrators / toys. In fact modern sex toys are available in a wide variety of shapes, textures,etc - they can feel as good or better than the real thing. It is not the physical sensations that matter.
> ...


I know that sex is an emotional need for HDs, But why equate this with a chore that a person can just do and get it over with? My hubby goes to the store to pick up stuff for me at times, he says that I should give him sex because he does this. However, he would want more enthusiasm from me, not the same as if he is going to the store.

This is what confuses me. We understand that sex is important and it is a way you show and receive love. Why compare it to a mundane chore?


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

techmom said:


> I know that sex is an emotional need for HDs, But why equate this with a chore that a person can just do and get it over with? My hubby goes to the store to pick up stuff for me at times, he says that I should give him sex because he does this. However, he would want more enthusiasm from me, not the same as if he is going to the store.
> 
> This is what confuses me. We understand that sex is important and it is a way you show and receive love. Why compare it to a mundane chore?


He is comparing it to going to the store because he is meeting one of your perceived needs, an act of service to show that he loves you and wants to make your life easier.

He hopes that you will want to meet his need for physical touch. Is it so hard to create sexual thoughts for him?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

We are in a bad place in our marriage, it is hard to think of sexual thoughts about anybody, let alone him. I know that it doesn't help. He just doesn't want me to phone it in, he wants enthusiasm.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

techmom said:


> I know that sex is an emotional need for HDs, But why equate this with a chore that a person can just do and get it over with? My hubby goes to the store to pick up stuff for me at times, he says that I should give him sex because he does this. However, he would want more enthusiasm from me, not the same as if he is going to the store.
> 
> This is what confuses me. We understand that sex is important and it is a way you show and receive love. Why compare it to a mundane chore?


I'm going to say that sex is an emotional need for all healthy males, and not just HDs. Men are physical & visual by nature and that's how we feel loved.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I think the hormone thing is why a lot of the advice for men in these situations is to lift weights, dress better and act more masculine. It is essentially trying to trigger a new hormonal burst in your wife as if you were a new man.
> 
> One daunting aspect of this strategy is the idea that you must always be improving and demonstrating your masculinity in new ways to hold her attention. It can make you feel a bit like a dancing bear. This feeling can be overcome by the fact that these improvements benefit you even absent any response from her.



I don't understand why you wouldn't want to be the best you can be for your spouse at all times. Why do people stop improving themselves after they get married? No one wants to be married to a man that comes home every night, sits in his chair in front of the t.v. with a beer and burps and farts. No one wants to be married to a woman that plays Facebook games in her phone every night while watching reality t.v.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

intheory said:


> Although I don't see many higher drive wives here; there are enough of us to reassure me that I'm not some freak of the universe. A woman whose husband can kind of take-it-or-leave-it. And as women we are aware of the stereotypes (which are stereotypes for a reason, btw), that men are just dying for sex. Any moderately attractive woman can "walk into a bar and leave with someone to fµck in about 20 minutes tops". :crazy:<<<Paraphrasing a statement I've seen here on TAM, and heard elsewhere in society.
> 
> But it is very lonely and hurtful; even when I can logically understand the physical reasons why it might be happening.


TAM definitely helps me feel not so alone in being the HD spouse with a LD husband. I do hate the stereotypes of men wanting sex all the time because it makes me feel unattractive that my husband is not all over me, even though I can get a lot of attention from other men. That hurts. I even point blank asked my husband to grope me, and he hasn't done anything differently. My husband is a healthy man in his 30s, normal hormone levels, but he is just LD right now. It's difficult to deal with. I highly doubt he would ever post here that he is LD because he would be picked apart by people.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I'm going to say that sex is an emotional need for all healthy males, and not just HDs. Men are physical & visual by nature and that's how we feel loved.


This is *not* true and it hurts a lot of HD women who are with LD men. There are some healthy men who are LD, for many different reasons.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't know if this will help anyone, but this is about me, a HD hubby.


The reason I lift weights was because in my youth, I was very skinny and weak. I had enough of being skinny and weak, so I started weight training. I have now weight trained from my late teens to present day and my body weight has gone from 162.5 lbs to 225+ lbs. I have about 4x my strength gains, I have bigger shoulders, I feel good, its for my health and also for Mrs.CuddleBug. I don't compete and I don't go to the beaches hitting on the ladies.

I have also been HD since my beginning. The way the ladies move, sound, their sexy curvy bodies, clothes, hairstyles, smiles, eyes, everything about the ladies I love it all. 

Sex to me is not just PIV and done. Sex to me is the warmth, softness, scent, knowing she is right there with me, talking, yes I like to talk, and of course the sex is fantastic. Sex also helps me deal with day to day stress because I feel fantastic for the next 24 hours like I can attack the world and nothing gets me down.

When my HD needs are met, I instinctively surprise Mrs.CuddleBug with flowers, cards, lots of foot massages, cuddling on the couch, listening to her day, surprise dinners, and I do the majority of the chores.

- grocery shop
- clean cat litter box
- feed cat
- recycle
- pay all bills early
- make sure investments go through
- take time off work for contractors, repairs and upgrades for our place
- all landscaping, our place looks amazing, I love colors
- always upgrading something inside our place, researching

And I work. Wow, right? Not really. This is normal for me and I've always been this way.

I agree that us men are physical and visual more than anything. We are made and built off testosterone and that's why we have testicles. They boost our tests levels, when we get erections, when we weight train, and according to the Dr. Oz show, when men have sex 3x a week, every week, at that point the chances of heart diseases and attacks is reduced up to 50%. Us men need sex for our health, longevity, deal with stress and bonds us to our women more than words ever will.

We are bigger and stronger because of our HGH and test levels and back in the day, we are to protect our women and provide. Today, its 50 / 50 and doesn't matter as much.

Now when our ladies are LD, all the above is very negatively affected. No benefits whatsoever for us guys.


Hope this helps.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok, I think we all know about the HD hubby perspective, it is all over TAM. What is needed is the LD perspective, this would help with understanding the LDs and our viewpoint on sex.

Right now we are just going in circles, I do this IRL with my spouse, lol.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> TAM definitely helps me feel not so alone in being the HD spouse with a LD husband. I do hate the stereotypes of men wanting sex all the time because it makes me feel unattractive that my husband is not all over me, even though I can get a lot of attention from other men. That hurts. I even point blank asked my husband to grope me, and he hasn't done anything differently. My husband is a healthy man in his 30s, normal hormone levels, but he is just LD right now. It's difficult to deal with. I highly doubt he would ever post here that he is LD because he would be picked apart by people.


Just wanted to say that this is not your problem. I would probably shoot in my pants if my wife asked me to grope her. I can understand why that makes you feel bad.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's an idea.

Why don't all couples take the 5 love languages quiz, separately and afterwards exchange the results to each other. At that point, whoever is HD and LD will know what each others main love languages are and why. Now both spouses focus on that main love language for each other and not their own anymore.

See what happens when couples take care of each others needs as their own instead of only their own......:smthumbup:

Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Here's an idea.
> 
> Why don't all couples take the 5 love languages quiz, separately and afterwards exchange the results to each other. At that point, whoever is HD and LD will know what each others main love languages are and why. Now both spouses focus on that main love language for each other and not their own anymore.
> 
> ...


I wish it was that easy. My husband and I did this not long ago, but it hasn't changed things very much at all. His LL is Acts of Service and mine is Physical Touch. I've done everything I can for him to feel loved, as he barely has to lift a finger here at home(I do it all), but he's just not that physical with me.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I wish it was that easy. My husband and I did this not long ago, but it hasn't changed things very much at all. His LL is Acts of Service and mine is Physical Touch. I've done everything I can for him to feel loved, as he barely has to lift a finger here at home(I do it all), but he's just not that physical with me.



After Mrs.CuddleBug and I took the 5 love languages quiz, we learned what each others main love languages are and how to start meeting each others needs.

Your hubby sounds like my wifee and you sound like me. I feel your pain.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

woundedwarrior said:


> I'm going to say that sex is an emotional need for all healthy males, and not just HDs. Men are physical & visual by nature and that's how we feel loved.





Anonymous07 said:


> This is *not* true and it hurts a lot of HD women who are with LD men. There are some healthy men who are LD, for many different reasons.


I agree Anonymous07. That is just not true. The fact is that men are as likely to make a marriage sexless or near-sexless as women are. No matter how often that is state, some people gloss right over that.

Men just talk about it more. Women tend to feel great shame over a husband who does not want sex with them... we are told that all men want sex all the time. So if your husband does not want sex with you... you are unattractive. When that is what society thinks/says, few women will talk about it.

I've even seem some men on here think it's down right funny and tell HD women that it's good that their husband does not want sex because it's payback.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> For an LD person to want sex, they need to be well-rested, not burdened by chores, not stressed by their job, finances, family or children, not feeling unattractive, not distracted by hobbies, not already committed to doing something else, be happy with their partner, find their partner attractive, feel valued as a person and not a body, not be too cold or too hot or otherwise physically uncomfortable, be guaranteed not to be interrupted, feeling sexy, not feeling pressured by their partner, be guaranteed it will be a good time with a considerate lover, have their hormones all in a row and think it's their own idea despite the fact that they don't think about sex much. *Whatever I forgot and left out is the thing you didn't get right*.


We need the LDs perspective? Bull. There it is. 

Is that infuriating? YES! 

IS there a solution? Sometimes. 

What worked for me. 

HARDCORE DESTABILIZING creating MOTIVATION. Then we got somewhere.

I tried everything else. For those of you that say it's now duty sex, you're wrong. Now she gets it, invested gargantuan effort to get it while I was relentless in offering resources to get it. 

Fixed.

If destabilizing didn't work, I was leaving. If some deep down resentment you are predictably suspicious of, festers into her leaving, I won't care because I will not live with an LD marriage. I will have lost NOTHING. I will have gained an opportunity to find someone that willingly meets the needs of another enthusiastically. I don't want to have to be PERFECT to have a satisfying marriage. 

Nothing else worked.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

What Are My Options said:


> We need the LDs perspective? Bull. There it is.
> 
> Is that infuriating? YES!
> 
> ...


I'm curious: were you a "Nice Guy?" type before you decided to try destabilizing? Because maybe she found what you called "destabilization" to be attractive behavior of the sort that you hadn't been displaying before. 

As part of my process of figuring out my LD, I begged my husband to do the 180 and all that destabilization stuff, because I realized that part of the problem was that I was feeling smothered and I needed emotional space to get myself sorted out.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Things I learned about my LD wifee, causing her to be LD:


- overweight
- doesn't feel sexy
- not confident sexually
- bad ex bf
- parents extremely shy, quiet and conservative
- sister is the same
- crooked teeth, doesn't smile much
- told she is fat and won't amount to much
- then only focused on her jobs


She now goes to the gym 5 days week and has lost 50+ lbs. She feels better about herself but is still extremely self conscious. She still doesn't feel sexy. Her braces are almost ready to be removed and her teeth are perfect now and she is starting to smile. She still talks on the phone with her parents and sister every day, hour or more, and they live in our city, walking distance and a 7 minute drive away.

I don't think she will ever get over her insecurities and being LD vanilla and she might be like this her entire life.

For everything else she is as a woman and my wifee, an amazing woman, this insecurity and LD makes what she could of been such a waste of life.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

GettingIt said:


> I'm curious: were you a "Nice Guy?" type before you decided to try destabilizing? Because maybe she found what you called "destabilization" to be attractive behavior of the sort that you hadn't been displaying before.
> 
> As part of my process of figuring out my LD, I begged my husband to do the 180 and all that destabilization stuff, because I realized that part of the problem was that I was feeling smothered and I needed emotional space to get myself sorted out.


No. I neglected my wife, not having ANY idea what her needs were and also because I was a workaholic. She came to me utterly destroyed from not feeling loved by me. I was stunned into action. I apologized profusely, confessed my complete ignorance. assured her I loved her more than words could express and then I read everything available and got busy. I fixed everything she asked for very fast and we turned it around very quickly (2 weeks starting showing results and built on it for 6 months back to read hot) for about 5 years. 

Then I started 3rd business turning me into a neglectful husband and workaholic again. Within six months it was even worse than the first time. I tried the same fix it up road and it was not enough. I had to double down for a longer time frame and that was still a rough road. We went on and off for 6 months and came close to ending it many times with very scary epic battles. We are both very wiley. 

There were glimmers of hope through that but ultimately there was not enough motivation for her to work on her baggage so I had to destabilize. Before I did so I did everything I could to prepare for the end of the marriage. 

When I had all my arrangements in place, I gave her a choice. She choose saving the marriage. 

I am well aware marriage is a process not an event and all the naysayers and cynics will say its matter of time until her resentments boil over and she leaves. I'm 100% fine with that by my own custom design because I am not going to live with an LD. NOT HAPPENING. No loss of assets, custody, pride, etc is worth living that way. 

I put up with it as long as I did because I feared loss of other things in divorce. I came to terms with that so I was able to destabilize with confidence a better life than living with LD was waiting. 

No regrets whatsoever except not dong the work needed to have done so sooner. 

The fact is we are all hopelessly unprepared by our culture, government and churches to be competent and being spouses with the full skillsets to be successful and fulfilled. 

Too bad but that's the way it is. That makes it a crapshoot. Some are lucky. Others are not. The odds are displayed in the statistics and they are scary. 

I will try to make sure my children are well aware of the challenges and the tools needed so they can avoid the waste of time spent on heart ache.

I wish everyone all the best but I also find it a disservice to sit in silence when I spot some B.S. that is dead wrong in my experience. 

The reasons all the wisdom and experience in the world often doesn't seem to help some people

1. Every relationship is unique copouts
2. Straw man arguments
3. Flawed logic
4. Lack of comprehension
5. Failure to read carefully
6. Critical thinking skills
7. Comparing false equivalents 

Some that are suffering in a bad marriage despite remarkable efforts to figure things out ought invest their time instead on 1-6 because they are beyond help of that cant grasp said help.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

techmom said:


> All I can say is that LDs sometimes are affected by the "new relationship hormones" which causes thm I desire sex more frequently. I know I did, and my hubby took that to mean that he met his match sexually. The PEA hormones decrease in about 3 years after a new relationship, then the sex drive returns to normal.
> 
> LDs are caught by surprise when this happens, we think we met the person who can turn our crank only for it to end. It leaves us high and dry. LDs are not out to "trap" HDs into marriage. This situation is just as stressful, at least it is for me.
> 
> Having a person that you love doubt your relationship because you don't want this one thing as much as they do is heartbreaking. HDs frown on "duty sex", they want us to want it as much as them. But just beacause we can't make you want it less does not mean we have to force ourselves to want it more. You have to accept our gift of making love just for you just as you want us to accept your HD.


Techmom, thank you for taking the time to reply, it's interesting to hear your point of view as an LD partner. I do beg to differ on some points though. Firstly, we spent a year living together before marriage during which time he was quite open about what an adventurous and interesting sex life we'd be able to have as we have no kids or other responsibilities to distract us. The regular sex stopped on our wedding day - no sex on honeymoon and it's dwindled to just once in the past 7 months. As for other problems in the relationship that could be causing this, there really aren't any that haven't been caused by the lack of sex. I've asked him what I can do to make myself more attractive to him to no avail. He says he never feels horny, never wakes with an erection and has no interest in sex at all. He loves the fact that when we're out all the men watch if I walk across the room, but gets very annoyed and possessive if he thinks one of the guys is flirting with me. He's quite happy for me to talk to the guys that he thinks I won't fancy but if a guy he thinks I may fancy is talking to me he makes a point of interrupting and steering me away. 

We had an interesting conversation today about a female friend of ours who ended a 10 year relationship because the guy only wanted sex every 3 or 4 weeks and he totally supported her in her decision, agreeing that she was in an untenable position because she was in danger of being forced into an affair which wouldn't have been a good thing for her to do as a person. 

He's an artist and is really interested in creating some very erotic sculptures of women, often shares images of erotic artwork he finds with me on FB, etc. I don't get angry or critical, I'm cheerful all the time but I'm crying inside all day, every day.

It's not even as if we have a "not very often" sex life - we just don't have one - this is a celibate marriage now! 

While your answer is interesting, not much of it seems to apply to what's going on with us and, although it makes it easier to understand that for some people a marriage with not a great deal of sex is okay, what about a marriage with no sex at all. I know that with some older couples who've been together for many years the sex dwindles later on, but I feel as if I've gone from newly married to an old, worn out marriage in an instant. This really wasn't what I was expecting and, had I known that it would be like this, I really wouldn't have got married.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

What Are My Options said:


> No. I neglected my wife, not having ANY idea what her needs were and also because I was a workaholic. She came to me utterly destroyed from not feeling loved by me. I was stunned into action. I read everything available and got busy. I fixed everything she asked for very fast and we turned it around very quickly (2 weeks starting showing results and built on it for 6 months back to read hot) for about 5 years.
> 
> Then I started 3rd business and screwed it up again. Within six months it was worse than the first time. I tried the same fix it up road and it was not enough. I had to double down for a longer time frame and that was still a rough road. We went on and off for 6 months and came close to ending it many times with very scary epic battles. We are both very wiley.
> 
> ...


Resentment is a b!tch, and it sounds like your wife had a lot, and reasonably so. But like you point out, only she had the power to deal with and dispel that resentment. Once you're full of it, it doesn't go away on its own no matter how much your partner improves. If resentment's the bottleneck in the improvement of your marriage and she won't work on it, then yeah the ball's in your court. Sound like she ultimately decided to work on it. 

But she might have decided you were worth the risk since you'd demonstrated effort in the past. You'd taken responsibility and cleaned up your act in the past. She probably has a hard time trusting you, she probably doesn't feel all that secure with you, but she wants to be married to you, and so she did the work. 

As for figuring out what's going on in marriages based on one- sided posts here--well, we all tend to project. Who's to say whether the LD/HD situation presented is more like yours when you were the one doing the neglecting, or more like yours when it was your wife who needed to step up? One size will never fit all, and we very rarely get both sides of the story.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Good evening

I would agree with Doobie, I am in exactly the same position. No Sex since the wedding day, if someone had told me that after nearly eight years, I would be in a celibate relationship, I would not have believed them. I too would like to see explanations from LD people, and in my case mainly from LD women. However, I suspect that LD's do not think this is a problem. In my position I would be happy wife sex once a month, at least it would be something too look forward too. Left Hand and Right Hand are now getting jealous as I type, therefore will have to finish now.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WAMO, IMHO you make things excessively complicated. I think you stated it earlier, but if you apply common sense and apply critical thinking skills AND observation skills you can easily learn how to be a good marriage partner. Let's flesh out common sense things that we should be able to easily figure out before marriage or not to far into marriage.


In most marriages, money isn't everything but there is a circuit breaker for a minimum amount for comfort. Do you sacrifice a marriage to send a kid to the best private school when a good public school is readily available?
People like to spend time with each other when married. So starting a 3rd business after you KNEW that your wife felt neglected earlier, is the height of arrogance and hubris. Common sense dictates that you do your best to keep a healthy balance between work and home life.
Communication is critical. You need to do what you can to get your spouse to open up to you and you to him/her. Why play a guessing game trying to figure out what he/she wants? Why play games? If a spouse says "you should know what I want or what bothers me" - bullsh!t! Never accept that.
Love and attraction is a must. Never marry someone who checks off "most the boxes". Go for it all. Never marry someone you weren't attracted to right away. If you had to build up to those feelings over time, guess what happens to those feelings when adversity hits?
If you have kids, never, ever, ever and ever allow them to monopolize so much of your time that you have none left for yourselves. Good example is the plethora of travel teams that a bunch of manipulative pr!cks thought up so that they can get parents to relive their youth thru their kids and because, you know, every fvcking kid out there is the next Michael Jordan, Larry Fitzgerald, Kerry Strug or Venus Williams...

This is just off the top of my head and there are others I can add. The point is that there is no mysterious road map to navigate if you simply think. If you marry someone whose mentally unstable or has a diagnosis, then all bets are off. But seriously, spouses want to feel loved, respected, valued and taken seriously. How do you do that? Simple, first you know how you want to be treated so the golden rule is a great start. Second, ASK him or her.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Anonymous07 said:


> This is *not* true and it hurts a lot of HD women who are with LD men. There are some healthy men who are LD, for many different reasons.


I didn't mean to say there are no such thing as LD males or to offend anyone. I feel for anyone married to an LD spouse, it's a rough ride.

I'm just saying men are born with a desire & craving for sex, it's hardwired into our DNA, so I would have to talk to a true LD man for a better understanding & I don't know any??


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

intheory said:


> :lol:^^^ You made me laugh again doobie.
> 
> We both came to TAM about the same time last year, with the same sort of issue.
> 
> ...


It's lonely, depressing and I feel like I'm living a lie - I try to hold onto my self respect by not letting this turn me into a nasty person, I try to have good thoughts in my heart towards him but I've lost all respect for him.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> I didn't mean to say there are no such thing as LD males or to offend anyone. I feel for anyone married to an LD spouse, it's a rough ride.
> 
> I'm just saying men are born with a desire & craving for sex, it's hardwired into our DNA, so I would have to talk to *a true LD man* for a better understanding & I don't know any??


I think the fact that the true LDs on this forum seem to be women serves to demonstrate that the LD women are much more willing to make an effort to change than are the LD men. There are plenty of HD men here trying to find out how they can change to improve their relationships and a few LD women, but the HD men willing to make the effort seem to be as rare as unicorn poo.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> WAMO, IMHO you make things excessively complicated


Perhaps that is so while my wife and I together have saved our marriage twice from the depths of sadness and anger. I don't quarrel with results. How I got there is moot when the goal is the goal. The method is not the goal. 

Trial and error starting the first time from scratch and the second time because I back slid creating brand new issues is messy and involves many failures along the way when the plethora of intermingled issues looks like a bowl of spaghetti it's hard to know where to start. 

Peeling layers of the onion back takes a systematic approach. To me, that simplifies matters. I look for a structure to keep to track of it all. Much to my delight, that is precisely what you have proposed in the post I am quoting. We have a nearly identical approach. Is that our heated agreement perhaps? 

Given the number of posts that result in misunderstanding each other on this very forum despite all the unquestionable sincerity that is evident here I don't think it is easy and neither are the solutions. They require the sort of structure you have proposed. The elements of what that structure should be include makes it a complex discussion no?




Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think you stated it earlier, but if you apply common sense and apply critical thinking skills AND observation skills you can easily learn how to be a good marriage partner.


Sure and doing so seems a struggle for many so it's easy "if and only if" 



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Let's flesh out common sense things that we should be able to easily figure out before marriage or not to far into marriage.


Love the approach. Are you after my heart? 



Plan 9 from OS said:


> In most marriages, money isn't everything but there is a circuit breaker for a minimum amount for comfort. Do you sacrifice a marriage to send a kid to the best private school when a good public school is readily available?
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> ...





Plan 9 from OS said:


> This is just off the top of my head and there are others I can add. The point is that there is no mysterious road map to navigate if you simply think. If you marry someone whose mentally unstable or has a diagnosis, then all bets are off. But seriously, spouses want to feel loved, respected, valued and taken seriously. How do you do that? Simple, first you know how you want to be treated so the golden rule is a great start. Second, ASK him or her.


Should be that. When your spouse is unable to express themselves adequately this simple road is a long windy road along a cliff side of misunderstanding but that does not diminish your eloquent points by much.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I deleted several off topic posts above. Let's stick to the topic of the thread.




.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I didn't mean to say there are no such thing as LD males or to offend anyone. I feel for anyone married to an LD spouse, it's a rough ride.
> 
> I'm just saying men are born with a desire & craving for sex, it's hardwired into our DNA, so I would have to talk to a true LD man for a better understanding & I don't know any??


Your second paragraph still does not make sense. If it were true that men are "hard wired to desire/want sex", then there would be no such thing as a LD man. Both men and women can be LD. My husband is LD and it's a reality I never expected, since I thought the stereotype of men wanting sex 24/7 was true for all men. Nope, not true. My husband often has a headache, is too tired, doesn't feel well, wants to relax, etc. for his many reasons as to why he doesn't want sex. Many of the same reasons women use to avoid sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

woundedwarrior said:


> I didn't mean to say there are no such thing as LD males or to offend anyone. I feel for anyone married to an LD spouse, it's a rough ride.
> 
> I'm just saying men are born with a desire & craving for sex, it's hardwired into our DNA, so I would have to talk to a true LD man for a better understanding & I don't know any??


I will bet that you do know some LD men or men who refuse to have sex with their wives.

You do not know that they are LD or refuse sex because usually these guys do not tell anyone about it. They keep their little secret. Their wives keep it too out of embarrassment and humiliation. Instead these guy will tell people either that they are having lots of sex or that their wives are LD so they are not getting any because of her.

I've been in a marriage where exactly that was happening. If found out that he was doing both of those things depending which guys he was talking to.


.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Good morning

I for one three months ago would have said that men are hard wired for sex, however, in the last three months my eyes and ears have been opened to the fact that both men and women can be HD or LD, I have even learnt a new speak.
What really gets my goat is the fact that men are said to be one kind that is HD and indeed is inbreed in them, while women are portrayed as LD and demure. It is a case of chemical in balance and will effect both sexes, we can accept LGBT these days, therefore why cannot we accept HD and LD in different genders.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jacko jack said:


> Good morning
> 
> I for one three months ago would have said that men are hard wired for sex, however, in the last three months my eyes and ears have been opened to the fact that both men and women can be HD or LD, I have even learnt a new speak.
> What really gets my goat is the fact that men are said to be one kind that is HD and indeed is inbreed in them, while women are portrayed as LD and demure. It is a case of chemical in balance and will effect both sexes, we can accept LGBT these days, therefore why cannot we accept HD and LD in different genders.


Some people do accept that LD and asexuality exists. There are dating websites for asexual people. Makes sense to me.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

jacko jack said:


> men are said to be one kind that is HD and indeed is inbreed in them, while women are portrayed as LD and demure. .


That isn't said here though because it is well known to be completely false. 

It's nice to be able to come to a place where there is a level of knowledge and sophistication where the subject can be explored without having to contend with the lack of awareness of the general population that has not heard of an LD male or for that matter LD at all of any gender. 

Clearly a public awareness effort would be in order to make every yet to be married couple live a better married life or refrain from getting married before they are in painfully too far to past a point of painful return without this knowledge. 

Since fully 1/3 of marriages suffer from this issue, I wish the culture, schools, families and religious organizations help get the word out about it to raise the overall happiness of all higher than it has obviously been. 

If we were all getting some, there would be more good and less bad to come out of resolving such a common issue.



jacko jack said:


> It is a case of chemical imbalance and will effect both sexes, .


Sometimes but very often not at all. 



jacko jack said:


> we can accept LGBT these days, therefore why cannot we accept HD and LD in different genders.


We do acknowledge it's existence but I will not accept it for my own marriage because that is a choice I have decided is not for me just as homosexuality is not for me even though I am fully supportive of others living their lives in the way that makes them happy. 

I have made it clear to my wife that I know LD is a real thing, there are at least five rather well known causes of LD by those that read until their eyes are bloodshot about the issue that I will not live that way so it is up to us to figure it out immediately and address it at the same speed or split up

1. Situational 
2. Hormonal 
3. Psychological 
4. Physical
5. Mixed bag of 1-4



EleGirl said:


> Some people do accept that LD and asexuality exists. There are dating websites for asexual people. Makes sense to me.


See what I mean. 

There are many who get that it is a real thing. The approach how to handle it differs as it should. How the body of knowledge about LD/HD issue is built out from there is still being debated thank goodness so it can be developed to minimize more of the marital pain in our culture going forward. 

I am looking forward to building out that body of knowledge. The suffering is way too great not to build it out from where we are now for others after us to benefit from including all of our children.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening techmom
I've given up on trying to find anything else that is like sex. 

Instead I was saying that I do all sorts of things to make my wife happy - I enjoy doing those things because it makes her happy. Why should sex be different. 

Maybe this is a more basic disconnect. Do you enjoy making your partner happy? I assume you do things for them, but do you directly enjoy their happiness, or does it feel more like a trade that they make you happy and in return you make them happy?

(I'm not accusing or anything - its just that somehow there is a communications gap about enjoying doing things to please your partner and I'm trying to see where it is that we think so differently). 


In the end a HD person simply cannot be happy without sex. Nothing else substitutes. They, we are just trying to figure out how to explain this. To say that in a sexless relationship we are miserable and that if our partners understood how badly we felt, we cannot imagine that would allow it if they loved us. 

BTW thank you for continuing the conversation



techmom said:


> I know that sex is an emotional need for HDs, But why equate this with a chore that a person can just do and get it over with? My hubby goes to the store to pick up stuff for me at times, he says that I should give him sex because he does this. However, he would want more enthusiasm from me, not the same as if he is going to the store.
> 
> This is what confuses me. We understand that sex is important and it is a way you show and receive love. Why compare it to a mundane chore?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I will bet that you do know some LD men or men who refuse to have sex with their wives.
> 
> You do not know that they are LD or refuse sex because usually these guys do not tell anyone about it. They keep their little secret. Their wives keep it too out of embarrassment and humiliation. Instead these guy will tell people either that they are having lots of sex or that their wives are LD so they are not getting any because of her.
> 
> ...


The above is very true. No one in real life knows my husband is LD. I've never told anyone, only written about it here. I'm too embarrassed to say anything and I know my husband would be humiliated, too, so I keep quiet. I'm absolutely certain that everyone thinks we have a great sex life, especially since our son was a from a surprise pregnancy. That is far from the truth though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Interesting event this evening. My wife told me that a girlfriend of hers told her how unhappy she was with her husband - and had given him a set of ultimatums. 

With this as an opening, I asked my wife is there was anything she was unhappy about regarding me. She said "no really nothing, you are wonderful". Then mentioned that maybe I should get my hair cut a bit more often.

But then she DIDN'T ask if I was unhappy about anything. I think she is completely convinced I am happy, other than my sort of silly / cute physical attraction for her. 

I'll have a serious talk with her tomorrow. Try to not hurt her, but make her understand how miserable I am.


The LD/HD communication gap is so amazingly large. Its like we are different species. I'm beginning to doubt that we experience the same thing when we use the word "love".


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> For a few days each month my drive is out of control and every waking thought is about sex. (Uh, is that what it's like for men all the time??)


Only since we turn 13 onward 



GettingIt said:


> I figure what right do I have to ask him to scratch my itch after what I put him through? So I tend to try and hold out until he initiates, and if he doesn't, I'm climbing the walls after a day or two and in a horrible mood and inevitably I end up taking it out on him, which doesn't exactly put him in the mood.


Dang your story parallels Mrs. Gray and I. 

Every time that happens to us I feel like it was a wasted opportunity. If she had asked, I'd be happy to help her. But it requires her to speak up. 

To answer the first part: You need to forgive yourself. You can't undo the past. All you can do is make the present better. By holding onto the bad parts of the past, you're getting in the way of your present. I doubt that's what your husband wants for you.



GettingIt said:


> Anytime I've been able to bring myself to ask, he's been more than happy to help me out. But it's still not easy. We're working on it, but it's hard to just erase old habits and triggers.


One more suggestion: I'd communicate about your cycle and its impact on your drive. Use some of that improved communication to cue him into when you're going to be the most amorous. I've found it to be quite helpful.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Men just talk about it more. Women tend to feel great shame over a husband who does not want sex with them... we are told that all men want sex all the time. So if your husband does not want sex with you... you are unattractive. When that is what society thinks/says, few women will talk about it.


Ever watch Married With Children? They always played up the horny frustrated wives and disinterested husbands on the show.

Part of coming from a family with insane drive is hearing about women who left their husbands and / or cheated because their husband wasn't keeping up with their desire led me to be fully aware how common this was. 



EleGirl said:


> I've even seem some men on here think it's down right funny and tell HD women that it's good that their husband does not want sex because it's payback.


:crazy:

Payback for what? It's pretty messed up to have schadenfreude about some woman somewhere suffering because of what some other woman did to you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> The above is very true. No one in real life knows my husband is LD. I've never told anyone, only written about it here. I'm too embarrassed to say anything and I know my husband would be humiliated, too, so I keep quiet. I'm absolutely certain that everyone thinks we have a great sex life, especially since our son was a from a surprise pregnancy. That is far from the truth though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have now and have had over the years several female friends who had sexless marriages and they were the HD spouse. Most of those marriages have split up now. Two of them are still in it and neither of them have had sex in over two years. These wives are just waiting until their kids are little older.

But both of their spirits have been crushed by their sexless marriages and the lack of sex and intimacy. 

The ones who have gotten out of their marriages don't always go on to a new happy place...but they are still way happier than in the sexless marriage.

It is really very common.

I have even had tales passed down in my family like "you know, aunt Marge wasn't actually ever happy with uncle Luke because, well you know, he apparently never wanted to have sex at all and she did". All very "hush just between us women".


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> HDs see the sex as the major problem, the LD see other problems as more important.



Sex is as good a motivation. for solving problems as any. 

Dr. J2 has some big chore waiting for me - something she could do herself but will not do. That's her 'other, more important, problem'.

In our current state of affairs, I will either not do it, do it and make her regret she asked, or do a half a$$ job of it to make sure she has to waste time fixing it. Why? Because of the overall lack of interest in having to do anything to make her life easier.

Not directly transaction based but pretty close to it. I am working overtime these days and the last thing I want after 8 hours of work on a Sunday is to waste another 4 on her crap for no reason other that I am there.

By rationing or eliminating intimacy you delegate your relationship to roommate status. If you would spend 4 hours to fix your roomie's PC or proofread their term paper without a good reason / reward, then go for it, but most people won't. 

It's more reciprocity than transaction. If you can maintain an intimate connection despite avoiding or rationing intimacy the more power to you, most people can't.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Two more thoughts have come to me about this LD-HD stuff. I'm still looking for the perfect analogy to help both sides understand one another!

The first is that HD and LD people approach sex differently. The HD people see sex as the biggest way to demonstrate intimacy. Without sex, they just don't feel intimately connected with their spouse. The LD person needs well-established intimacy to want to have sex. So it's a vicious circle that ends up with no intimacy and no sex. To break out of it, either the LD person has to provide a bunch of non-intimate sex when they aren't in the mood, or the HD person has to provide a bunch of non-sexual intimacy when they aren't feeling connected at all. Both partners feel that the other isn't making any effort to change, so why should they be the one to make the first sacrifice? And even if one decided to do so (the HD person so desperate that they do extra chores and make grand gestures in the hopes of sex, or the LD person providing 'duty sex') it backfires because the other person sees it as a selfish ploy, which it pretty much is. (I'm only doing this nice stuff for you in the hopes of sex! Well I'm only lying here like a starfish in the hopes it will get you off my case!) Both partners need to acknowledge the problem and work together, which is a challenge to do when they aren't intimately connected.

The second thing I'm pondering is the notion of sex as a commodity. Instead of thinking of it as a fun recreational activity two people do together, the HD seems to treat it as something the LD person possesses that they want from them. Thus the accusations of 'withholding' when the LD person doesn't cooperate with sharing the sex. Sex is not something the LD person has in their pocket and is deliberately keeping from the HD person for whatever reason. The pocket is just empty, that's all. It also breeds the idea that if the HD person just navigates the maze properly, they can get to the treat at the end. But the LD person isn't creating an impossible maze for the HD person. The LD person is in the maze too - they just aren't motivated enough by the treat to try to get out of it, so they sit where they are. The LD person watches the HD person run around the maze like crazy and says "what's the point?" and the HD person stares at the LD person just sitting there and says "how can you not want to even try?"


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening hopeful cynic.
I agree with a lot of what you posted. What frustrates some HDs (and maybe LDs) is when they do hold up their end, and things still don't get better. I know from my end that I have engaged in all sorts of non-sexual intimacy with my wife, but our sex life continues to decline. When the sex life is good, I very much enjoy the other intimacy, but when things are bad it is just terribly frustrating. 

What I (and maybe other HDs) don't get is the idea that a LD is somehow "out of sex". How they can be willing to do almost anything else, but sex is somehow special. The one thing we so desperately want seems to be the one thing they are unwilling to do. 

Maybe we just don't want to accept the answer that we cannot be happy. That divorcing the person we love is the only route to happiness - its a horrible thought. We feel trapped by love - miserable, depressed. It just seems like it would be so easy for our partners to make us happy.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Having sex when you don't want sex is NOT easy, neither mentally, emotionally or physcially. Constantly feeling like you don't live up to your spouse's sexual expectations (and/or demands) is not easy. Constantly feeling hounded to have sex, whether it is spoken or unspoken, is not easy. LD's aren't as oblivious and happy as people around here seem to think.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Sex is the glue that binds a hubby and wifee together.

The more sex you have, the better you get at it, try new things, spice it up more and bond more.

Less less sex you have, the worse you get at it, don't try new things, don't spice it up, and you don't bond much.

Use it or lose it.

If there was only some way to determine who is LD, then don't waste your time getting married to them thinking and hoping they will get a sex drive.

Sex isn't physically draining. The wifee gets oral from her hubby and relaxes and enjoys it. Or she gives him oral and he relaxes and enjoys it. Or doggie style, spoon, missionary, the hubby is going through all the motions. Sex shouldn't be physically taxing. Take your time, relax and enjoy.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening hopeful cynic.
> I agree with a lot of what you posted. What frustrates some HDs (and maybe LDs) is when they do hold up their end, and things still don't get better. *I know from my end that I have engaged in all sorts of non-sexual intimacy with my wife, but our sex life continues to decline.* When the sex life is good, I very much enjoy the other intimacy, but when things are bad it is just terribly frustrating.
> 
> What I (and maybe other HDs) don't get is the idea that a LD is somehow "out of sex". How they can be willing to do almost anything else, but sex is somehow special. The one thing we so desperately want seems to be the one thing they are unwilling to do.
> ...


That's what I'm getting at. You are engaging in what you think is non-sexual intimacy with your wife, but she senses that your ulterior motive is ultimately to get more sex out of her, so that invalidates the non-sexual intimacy to her. It has now become intimacy with a catch to her. She has grown to feel that you value her only as a body to use.

Also, sex IS special. It IS supposed to be something done when mutually desired, and for mutual pleasure. If you're approaching it that it's something your wife should do for you because she loves you, then that makes it seem selfish to her. Who wants a selfish lover?

I saw in another thread today that someone mentioned this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20 ) was helpful to them. I watched it, and did learn something interesting. She said that the usual course of events for sex is

1) desire
2) arousal
3) orgasm
4) afterglow

except that in some people, the first two are mixed up. Unless they feel arousal to begin with, there is no desire. And in addition, women are, unlike men, sometimes unaware of their level of arousal (weird-sounding but there are studies showing this).

That might be what's going on with your wife. So the tricky part for you is to have your wife feel arousal first, so that the desire for sex will come. Catch her when she's reading 50 shades. Catch her during a hot sex scene in a movie. Find that non-genital erogenous zone on her body and make sure you devote some time to it when you give her a massage. You want her to just happen to find some sex in her pocket and there you are to hand, happy to receive it.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

*"the HD seems to treat it as something the LD person possesses that they want from them. Thus the accusations of 'withholding' when the LD person doesn't cooperate with sharing the sex. Sex is not something the LD person has in their pocket and is deliberately keeping from the HD person for whatever reason. The pocket is just empty" - Hopeful Cynic*

I think it's not so much that HD partners think of sex as something that the LD person possesses - it's just that, morally, they are the only person we should be having sex with and unless they willingly have sex with us, we cannot have sex without cheating on them. However empty to pocket is determines however empty the whole sex life (and adult monogamous) relationship is.

That said, my H today finally freaked out about me sleeping in the spare room and admitted that stopping drinking a couple of months ago has led to him again wanting sex with me. We had a long talk with tears on both sides. He basically asked me what I think the solution is since I'm the one who has read books and researched on the internet about the problem. When I asked if he'd be willing to read some of the books, he got a little angry and said he just thinks we should start having sex again. He did say that he doesn't want to pressure me into it and is willing to wait. When we talked about the rough sex being painful for me he said that we needn't have penetrative sex. I pointed out that we haven't really had sex enough to find a style that suits us both and that we need to be honest and talk to each other about what turns us on. He just said that the main thing that turns him on is my excitement and I listed several things that turn me on and pointed out that my main erogenous zone is my skin. I've agreed to sleep in the bedroom with him tonight - changed the bedding and warmed the room and he's promised me a gentle sensual massage after we've both bathed. Although six months ago I would have seen this as a great result and looked forward to it, I now feel so self conscious and awkward about everything that there's a certain amount of trepidation going on. I think a glass of wine or two in the bath may help me there. Wish me luck, everyone, this may just be the beginning of the end of our sex problems.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

After you get married, hubby and wifee are to take care of each others needs as their own. They are not their own anymore and single.

So if a HD spouse is romancing, dinners, walks, flowers, massages, talking, you name it, taking care of the LD spouses needs, then the LD spouse must make the same effort taking care of the HD spouses needs, physical and sexual.

But what usually happens, the HD spouse continues to do these things and the LD spouse doesn't make a similar effort physically and sexually or even meet half way in a loving compromise.

What then happens over the years, is the HD spouse stops doing these romantic things and then the LD spouse gets upset and says, if you just did these things more, I might be in the mood more.....

That's been my experience anyway.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

> After you get married, hubby and wifee are to take care of each others needs as their own. They are not their own anymore and single.
> 
> So if a LD spouse gives sex when they are not in the mood out of love for the HD, the HD should accept this gift and continue to love the LD for who they are fully.
> 
> ...


Edited according to the LD point of view.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Sex is not a gift, task or duty.

Sex is a loving physical and emotional connection between hubby and wifee that words will never do.

If sex is seen as a gift, pity, duty, then there is a real problem.

My wifee is LD. She has never given out sex and met my needs.
Yet I have met her needs, surprise dinners, flowers, cards, talking, cuddling on the couch, foot and back massages, a lot chores done, etc. I came to TAM.

A LD spouse does not have a lot of sex because they are low sex drive and they don't see that as a problem.

I highly doubt a LD spouse will ever take care of the HD spouses needs as their own, having sex a lot of the time. In reality, its more likely once every few weeks, maybe once a month, maybe once every few months, etc.


I just watched the video "The Sex Starved Marriage" It was a real eye opener.:smthumbup: I'm going to somehow show Mrs.CuddleBug this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Two more thoughts have come to me about this LD-HD stuff. I'm still looking for the perfect analogy to help both sides understand one another!...
> 
> ... and the HD person stares at the LD person just sitting there and says "how can you not want to even try?"


Hopeful Cynic, I agree 100%. And I say that as an LD male who does not believe he as a problem at all. (Well, not as far as my drive is concerned, anyway...I might have some unhealthily negative attitudes...)

I apologize if this has been brought up already (I've been away for days and haven't read the whole thread), but I'd like to add that many of us LD's simply don't see anything special or "magical" about sex that elevates it above all the other activities one does in a relationship. I love ice cream, but I'm not about to eat a pint of it every day. I like going out to dinner with my wife, but I don't think I need to do that every night (even if I could afford it).

But then, I DO feel bad for ripping off my partner, so I do try to make some effort to meet my wife's needs. (That hasn't been going so well for me lately, but that's another issue). I always have done this, and neither of us has ever been perfectly satisfied. That's compromise. That's a relationship.

As for CuddleBug's comment about sex being the glue binding a relationship together...only if both partners are HD and compatible! Which makes me wonder why doesn't someone start a nonexistent-sex-drive dating site?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Sex is not a gift, task or duty.
> 
> Sex is a loving physical and emotional connection between hubby and wifee that words will never do.
> 
> ...


Your tunnel vision is preventing you from noticing the numerous LD posts explaining that we do like sex, just that we require less of it. There are LDs who have sex more than once a week, not all LDs are like your wife. It is unfortunate for us to be paired up with HDs who require much more sex to feel satisfied and fulfilled. So, we end up compromising and try to make both partners happy which rarely happens. Either the HD feels it is not enough or the LD feels constant pressure to have sex.

The only true solution is to marry someone who you are compatible with, and waiting 3-5 years before you get married is the best way to do this. This allows the PEA chemicals to decrease which will reveal the true libido. Then you will find out if your future wife feels the same as you do about sex, or if she can take it or leave it.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

techmom said:


> Your tunnel vision is preventing you from noticing the numerous LD posts explaining that we do like sex, just that we require less of it.


:iagree::smthumbup:

I was too tactful to say this myself. THANK YOU.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

LaundryMan said:


> And I say that as an LD male who does not believe he as a problem at all. (Well, not as far as my drive is concerned, anyway...I might have some unhealthily negative attitudes...)
> 
> I apologize if this has been brought up already (I've been away for days and haven't read the whole thread), but I'd like to add that many of us LD's simply don't see anything special or "magical" about sex that elevates it above all the other activities one does in a relationship. I love ice cream, but I'm not about to eat a pint of it every day. I like going out to dinner with my wife, but I don't think I need to do that every night (even if I could afford it).
> 
> ...


There are asexual dating sites. There should be a more LD site, too. I'm sure more and more of these will pop up, as well as HD/HD sites.

I'm so glad you chimed in. I have known several LD men and know it is not an anomaly like so many here think it is. Some people just aren't that sexual and it doesn't mean anything is wrong with them.

However, it does tend to create a sexual mismatch if anyone who has really low D gets with anyone who has average or high D. As you know. But other than a mismatch, there is nothing wrong with either high or low...people vary greatly in this way.

I always encourage hearing more about LD men specifically, because it is the least heard from group. Thanks again for chiming in.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Dang your story parallels Mrs. Gray and I.
> 
> Every time that happens to us I feel like it was a wasted opportunity. If she had asked, I'd be happy to help her. But it requires her to speak up.
> 
> To answer the first part: You need to forgive yourself. You can't undo the past. All you can do is make the present better. By holding onto the bad parts of the past, you're getting in the way of your present. I doubt that's what your husband wants for you.


It basically comes down to both of us having to fight very hard to undo years of negative conditioning. We've communicated ad nauseam about what went wrong and our path forward, but despite our best intentions, sometimes the fear of rejection wins. It's really, really frustrating. I have to consciously choose to trust him in situations that leave me vulnerable. It's like forcing myself to press my hand against a stove that I believe with every fiber of my being to be hot . . . even though it really isn't. He has the same issues with making himself vulnerable to rejection from me. We both try to own our triggers and not let them hinder our way forward, but I'd be lying if I said I think we'll conquer them completely someday. Ten years is a long time, and those years changed us in ways that I think we are going to have to accept. But scars can be beautiful and meaningful, too. 





larry.gray said:


> One more suggestion: I'd communicate about your cycle and its impact on your drive. Use some of that improved communication to cue him into when you're going to be the most amorous. I've found it to be quite helpful.


He tracks my cycle and usually puts the info to good use. But I don't think he's going to be in the mood, I tend to keep my horniness to myself because I don't want him to fee pressured. He doesn't like when I hide it, though. He said knowing that I want him sexually makes him feel really, really good, even when he's not in the mood. I asked him why, and he said, "Because then I know you don't hate me." It was extremely painful to hear him say that. I have NEVER hated him--even in our worst years. But that is what sexual rejection felt like to him. It made him feel hated by his own wife. It's knowing this sort of thing that makes it hard to forgive myself. 

When I was LD and he expressed how badly he wanted me sexually, I always felt pressure. I thought he was being selfish. It didn't feel like and expression of love. It's amazing how differently the LD and the HD spouse perceives things, and how they project their own perceptions onto the intentions of the other.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> When I was LD and he expressed how badly he wanted me sexually, I always felt pressure. I thought he was being selfish. It didn't feel like and expression of love. It's amazing how differently the LD and the HD spouse perceives things, and how they project their own perceptions onto the intentions of the other.


This has been the BIGGEST hurdle for me to overcome in our relationship... Sex has simply never felt like a loving act to me. 
Yeah, it can be and mostly is fun, not a chore, but in the end... it's just sex. I don't get much out of it. 

Recognizing it as a deep expression as his love for me has taken a lot of time and effort, and I'm still not totally there yet.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

techmom said:


> Your tunnel vision is preventing you from noticing the numerous LD posts explaining that we do like sex, just that we require less of it. There are LDs who have sex more than once a week, not all LDs are like your wife. It is unfortunate for us to be paired up with HDs who require much more sex to feel satisfied and fulfilled. So, we end up compromising and try to make both partners happy which rarely happens. Either the HD feels it is not enough or the LD feels constant pressure to have sex.


Much of that tunnel vision comes from never being able to find youself in the situation where you are asked to perform more than you're willing.

I have a number for how much I want sex and another for how much I could have sex. Being HD the former is high. The latter is far more. Basically I've never hit it. I can't concieve of hitting it. My wife is crazy every few cycles. Sometimes those days hit on a free weekend and then it is all day long. Nowadays I can't orgasm after about 4, but I still enjoy giving her pleasure. 



> The only true solution is to marry someone who you are compatible with, and waiting 3-5 years before you get married is the best way to do this. This allows the PEA chemicals to decrease which will reveal the true libido. Then you will find out if your future wife feels the same as you do about sex, or if she can take it or leave it.


Might as well throw in two young kids a home, one high needs. My wife's drive was fine until then.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> This has been the BIGGEST hurdle for me to overcome in our relationship... Sex has simply never felt like a loving act to me.
> Yeah, it can be and mostly is fun, not a chore, but in the end... it's just sex. I don't get much out of it.
> 
> Recognizing it as a deep expression as his love for me has taken a lot of time and effort, and I'm still not totally there yet.


One thing that helped me was understanding that sex wasn't something he was trying to "take" from me. Rather, my sexuality was very much mine, and under my control. I decided not to accept that "this is just how I am." I wanted to be sexual--not just for him, but for me, too. I began to explore my sexuality as part of my identity, to really look for and understand this part of myself, and to come to terms with what I needed in my life and in my relationship for me to be highly sexual. It became a very powerful and rewarding experience to be able to respond sexually, to give myself to my husband willingly and happily instead of feeling like he was taking. 

It's sounds sort of new agey and weird when I describe it, but it really was just a process of self-examination and exploration. I can't say that I feel "in the mood" all the time, but my drive now matches and regularly outpaces that of my husband. And when I'm not in the mood, I can almost always get in the mood fairly quickly. On the rare occasions I can't get in the mood, I know exactly why. 

I think people generally underestimate their ability to change things about themselves that they really want to change.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm really sad to hear you two are stuck there gettingit.

One difference is I never did turn my wife down. I like sex too much to do that. I'd be afraid to initiate but wouldn't reject. 

I can't offer much advice. Honesty what did it for us was the loss of our son. Knowing how bad I hurt and fearing she hurt more killed my resentment outright. I just wanted to help support her any way I could. We talked more intamately than we had in years. 

Not a method I'd recommend for others.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Much of that tunnel vision comes from never being able to find youself in the situation where you are asked to perform more than you're willing.
> 
> I have a number for how much I want sex and another for how much I could have sex. Being HD the former is high. The latter is far more. Basically I've never hit it. I can't concieve of hitting it. My wife is crazy every few cycles. Sometimes those days hit on a free weekend and then it is all day long. Nowadays I can't orgasm after about 4, but I still enjoy giving her pleasure.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> I'm really sad to hear you two are stuck there gettingit.
> 
> One difference is I never did turn my wife down. I like sex too much to do that. I'd be afraid to initiate but wouldn't reject.
> 
> ...


We don't feel stuck so much anymore since our ability to work through the emotional setbacks is so much better. We see them for what they are and don't feel threatened. Our marriage feels more like a journey now, and we adjust and learn and get better at it every day. 

I'm sorry about your son--adversity has a way of really putting things in perspective.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Just to point out...I don't think techmom and GettingIt are the same type of LD. I think techmom is naturally LD and GettingIt was situationally LD. So for instance, I think techmom would probably not be able to raise her D as high as GettingIt has been able to.

But that is just a guess based on what I understand of both of their stories.

I just think it is important to point out, because some people aren't going to change how sexual they are no matter how much introspection they do. Some would understand it hurts their spouse, but still not be able to change it. Not because they want to hurt their spouse, but just because it is innate, it just isn't going to change at the core level.

But there are always surprises in life. Especially when hormones are involved. We go through a few hormonal changes throughout life (some people have several), and when they hit you, you really can have a flip flop in how sexual you are, almost over night. Sometimes this change remains permanently.

I hate the LD bashing. I'm really glad some are speaking up.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
well I talked with my wife. She was surprised - had had not idea that I was unhappy, but thought I was losing interest in her because I wasn't being as affectionate as in the past. Said she would try to have sex 2X / week - though I think it was a stretch for her. She still couldn't come up with anything I could do for her in any way.

Still I feel bad. She now knows that what I need to be happy is something she doesn't really want. She says she wants sex, just not so often - maybe every week or two. 

We will see what happens.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Just to point out...I don't think techmom and GettingIt are the same type of LD. I think techmom is naturally LD and GettingIt was situationally LD. So for instance, I think techmom would probably not be able to raise her D as high as GettingIt has been able to.


Not only is GettingIt situationally LD, she also has a cyclical based drive. My wife is the same way. Watch out when she ovulates! 



Faithful Wife said:


> I just think it is important to point out, because some people aren't going to change how sexual they are no matter how much introspection they do. Some would understand it hurts their spouse, but still not be able to change it. Not because they want to hurt their spouse, but just because it is innate, it just isn't going to change at the core level.


Yep. LD folks just need to be honest upfront. Playing higher drive to land a spouse will just result in hurt for both later on.




Faithful Wife said:


> I hate the LD bashing. I'm really glad some are speaking up.


:iagree:

It is very hard to understand. I can't connect. But that's no reason to be rude. I'm as equally confusing to understand, I'm sure.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Still I feel bad. She now knows that what I need to be happy is something she doesn't really want.


Same here... it's been a struggle, but I don't want to make my wife unhappy by forcing her to do what she doesn't want to do or, at least, not so often. We have sex usually once a month... I would like it once a week. The problem is that, without much sex, we have lost the intimacy and I have withdrawn from her. I'm sure she is not happy about that, and she knows she could give me sex to recreate the spark, but she can't do it.

After a few years, I finally got it. I stopped "pestering" her (our previous frequency was twice/month) about sex and just live my life.

I understand LDers now... they just don't have the need. Nothing you do will change that. And I don't want to change it. I don't want someone who's having sex just "to make me happy". I want my partner to desire me. If that's not possible any more, so be it. I won't be in the marriage for much longer, but that's the way it is. I need to feel desired, wanted and appreciated, my wife doesn't need sex. The two are not compatible. I've accepted it and I'm sorry I made my wife's life a misery for wanting sex twice a month...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Same here... it's been a struggle, but I don't want to make my wife unhappy by forcing her to do what she doesn't want to do or, at least, not so often. We have sex usually once a month... I would like it once a week. *The problem is that, without much sex, we have lost the intimacy and I have withdrawn from her.* I'm sure she is not happy about that, and she knows she could give me sex to recreate the spark, but she can't do it.
> 
> After a few years, I finally got it. I stopped "pestering" her (our previous frequency was twice/month) about sex and just live my life.
> 
> I understand LDers now... they just don't have the need. Nothing you do will change that. And I don't want to change it. I don't want someone who's having sex just "to make me happy". I want my partner to desire me. If that's not possible any more, so be it. I won't be in the marriage for much longer, but that's the way it is. I need to feel desired, wanted and appreciated, my wife doesn't need sex. The two are not compatible. I've accepted it and I'm sorry I made my wife's life a misery for wanting sex twice a month...


I think this is a really good post and captures the hard truth of a sexual mismatch from the HD perspective. The part I bolded is the crux of the problem because when that intimate connection isn't there, the emotional withdrawal often follows. The rejection is just so acutely painful that there really is little the HD spouse can do to stop the withdrawal. They can intellectually decide to stay in the marriage for whatever reason, but they don't feel connected, and they feel that loss pretty much all the time. Yes it affects their attitude and behavior, and yes that often makes it even for difficult for the LD spouse to recognize that it's the mismatch that is to blame, and not bad behavior from the HD spouse. 

I lived with an emotionally withdrawn HD husband for ten years and kept waiting for him to pull himself back into the marriage before I would seriously contemplate working on my desire. I truly believed that until he changed, I couldn't change. Learning that it was really beyond him to change first made all the difference to me. 

My drive has ebbed and flowed in the 25 years I've been with my husband. I've been the LD living with an emotionally withdrawn spouse, and since my drive is now regularly through the roof, I know what it's like to be the more HD partner. At the most, I've suffered, on occasion, a few days or a week of extreme HD when my husband wouldn't or couldn't help me out, or I just couldn't ask. It was mental, emotional and physical torture. And that was with knowing it would pass in a few days, or that if I could just bring myself to ask, my husband would be happy to help. I cannot fathom living ten years like that and although my husband is very kind and implores me to move on from the guilt, it's hard. 

I think this is why I tend to give the HD poster who seems harsh a bit more of a break than I might have given them before I developed empathy for their plight. They really are emotionally damaged. 

Mostly I just find posts like this one really, really sad.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I think this is a really good post and captures the hard truth of a sexual mismatch from the HD perspective. The part I bolded is the crux of the problem because when that intimate connection isn't there, the emotional withdrawal often follows. The rejection is just so acutely painful that there really is little the HD spouse can do to stop the withdrawal. They can intellectually decide to stay in the marriage for whatever reason, but they don't feel connected, and they feel that loss pretty much all the time. Yes it affects their attitude and behavior, and yes that often makes it even for difficult for the LD spouse to recognize that it's the mismatch that is to blame, and not bad behavior from the HD spouse.
> 
> I lived with an emotionally withdrawn HD husband for ten years and kept waiting for him to pull himself back into the marriage before I would seriously contemplate working on my desire. I truly believed that until he changed, I couldn't change. Learning that it was really beyond him to change first made all the difference to me.
> 
> ...


well, yes, it is sad... our plight was compounded by the total lack of communication. My wife is not a communicator. Without information, it was even worse, because I couldn't process the situation correctly. So, she ended up hating sex and blaming me, I guess.

Yes, it's been highly damaging to me. If she communicated, I could have accepted it a lot earlier, or maybe leave. That way, I didn't know what was going on. It just seemed cruel to me.

Now, I got it. I don't blame her. She is what she is. It went wrong. It's life. But I can't live like this, so we'll have to go separate ways, eventually, after 25 years together.

I think all this LD bashing is only understandable when the partner is withdrawing sex out of selfishness, laziness or spite... I can't say my wife was any of that... well, a bit lazy, maybe...  And yes, I've bashed LDs in the past too. But that was because of lack of insight. The damage is done and I will never be able to open up to her again, to be in a vulnerable position. It's been hell on earth. I do care a lot about her. I just wished she could overcome her emotional barrier and be frank with me...


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Same here... it's been a struggle, but I don't want to make my wife unhappy by forcing her to do what she doesn't want to do or, at least, not so often. We have sex usually once a month... I would like it once a week. The problem is that, without much sex, we have lost the intimacy and I have withdrawn from her. I'm sure she is not happy about that, and she knows she could give me sex to recreate the spark, but she can't do it.
> 
> After a few years, I finally got it. I stopped "pestering" her (our previous frequency was twice/month) about sex and just live my life.
> 
> I understand LDers now... they just don't have the need. Nothing you do will change that. And I don't want to change it. I don't want someone who's having sex just "to make me happy". I want my partner to desire me. If that's not possible any more, so be it. I won't be in the marriage for much longer, but that's the way it is. I need to feel desired, wanted and appreciated, my wife doesn't need sex. The two are not compatible. I've accepted it and I'm sorry I made my wife's life a misery for wanting sex twice a month...


I agree and although I'm staying in my marriage, you are absolutely right in that if they don't need sex, they don't need sex and nothing will ever change that. I've done the same thing over the years and quit asking, it just creates pressure and non enjoyable "duty sex".

Like another poster stated, a person, especially when talking marriage should have to confess they are LD or HD and most do not. I really think if I knew then, what I know now, I wouldn't have married my wife, not that I don't love her immensely, but our needs are totally different and I do feel she misled me.

I think sex is a deal breaker for most, so I can see why LDers will not divulge that information, because they probably would lose that relationship, but it is totally unfair to deceive someone too. I'm talking about the "true" LD spouse and not the situational ones. My drive goes hand in hand with my emotional closeness state, it can be raging or completely dead and I would still consider myself to have an adaptable drive now.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> Like another poster stated, a person, especially when talking marriage should have to confess they are LD or HD and most do not. I really think if I knew then, what I know now, I wouldn't have married my wife, not that I don't love her immensely, but our needs are totally different and I do feel she misled me.



You see, my situation wasn't at all like that, even after 5 years of cohabitation, when we got married. Ok, we went from everyday to once a week, but I was fine with that. Then we got married, we had our first child and her drive declined... we went to twice a month... I was still ok with that! But when, after the second child, the excuses started, the whole thing just went wrong. Twice a month seemed too much for her and when I "complained" - after two weeks - and I got no answers, then I got resentful... and after the 4th child, she went on ADs for OCD... that was it. I knew that was the end. I still tried, but she was off sex completely. My attitude didn't help either I guess. But I felt the disconnecting coming and was desperate. At the end, after a separation and threats of divorce, I gave up and stayed for the kids... 

I'm sure I've done a lot wrong and I regret it, but marriage shouldn't be a guessing game...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I think all this LD bashing is only understandable when the partner is withdrawing sex out of selfishness, laziness or spite... I can't say my wife was any of that... well, a bit lazy, maybe...  And yes, I've bashed LDs in the past too. But that was because of lack of insight. The damage is done and I will never be able to open up to her again, to be in a vulnerable position. It's been hell on earth. I do care a lot about her. I just wished she could overcome her emotional barrier and be frank with me...


With respect, this is a bit of a cop out. Not sure if you notice the contradiction in your own post.

If someone cannot meet your needs, then I believe at the very least they have the duty to be honest about that.

In my conversations with my wife, I have said repeatedly, "Just be brutally honest with me if this is something you are never going to be able to do." I meant it-- I need to know.

I am sure most of us in this situation have had similar conversations.

The thing is (and I'm sure my situation here is not unique), I never got a statement of "Yes, you know, I really am incapable of meeting your needs. I'm sorry about that, I wish it was different, but that is the truth."

It has alway been, "Well, I can't meet your needs because you fail at X, Y and Z."

There is never an owning up to the LD that allows the HD to make a clear decision. There is always a stringing of the HD along making him/her believe there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

If you are truly LD and you play this game, you are dishonest with yourself and your partner and you deserve to be bashed.

Edit: In my case, I do not (currently) believe my wife is one of these extreme LD cases that can never be reformed, so at the moment I am still chasing the pot of gold. But if it turns out that I perform X, Y and Z and the LD is still there, I will justifiably believe she has been dishonest with me and I won't just sweep that under the rug.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't see any contradiction... my wife wasn't "stringing me along", I don't think she knew she was LD, because she wasn't before. I believe she didn't know what was going on either. Her communication problem stopped her telling me everything, not just stuff about sex. She just doesn't know how to be open about feelings... we never had any kind of meaningful conversation, because it wasn't possible. I'm sure she wanted to, but she couldn't and still can't to a certain extent.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Some of these posts make me appreciate my wife more. She was at least honest with me. She did tell me her drive wasn'there, and that she missed it herself. I don't think she got what it did to me, but she did communicate that part.

I did get some of the hoop jumping game though. But I concede that really could be her trying to find that connection. Just when it doesn't work it does make a HD person resent it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I don't see any contradiction... my wife wasn't "stringing me along", I don't think she knew she was LD, because she wasn't before. I believe she didn't know what was going on either. Her communication problem stopped her telling me everything, not just stuff about sex. She just doesn't know how to be open about feelings... we never had any kind of meaningful conversation, because it wasn't possible. I'm sure she wanted to, but she couldn't and still can't to a certain extent.


Doesn't she have some responsibility to learn how to be open, to communicate? Are you supposed to guess what is going through her head?

I get that you've figured it out on your own, which is great, but why should you have to spend so much energy to figure her out?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Well in keeping with most other people'e experience, my wife told me this morning that she couldn't do it. She wanted to wait until she was sleeping better (she has had insomnia for all of the 30 years that I have know her). She was upset that I had asked for a bit of oral sex last night - earlier she had said she was willing to do that more often, but now said she was worried about what else I might try to pressure her into doing.

So, we are back to where we were - roommates. There is no way out of the maze:

Divorce: breaking my solemn marriage vows and making her utterly miserable

Cheat: breaking my solemn marriage vows, and probably eventually getting caught and making her miserable.

Live in misery myself. 


This is why LD is so frustrating to HDs. They are put in a position of spending their lives miserable, or dishonoring themselves. Trapped by an poorly thought-out oath - a bit of a Greek tragedy I guess.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Doesn't she have some responsibility to learn how to be open, to communicate? Are you supposed to guess what is going through her head?
> 
> I get that you've figured it out on your own, which is great, but why should you have to spend so much energy to figure her out?


She finally told me when I packed my bags... I stayed, because I felt sorry for her... that's the truth. And for the children. Of course she had a responsibility to learn, but it's difficult when you grew up like that. I had to guess most of the time and I still do... it's no fun, believe me, but she is what she is and I've accepted it. It doesn't matter any more. I wasted about 10 years of my life trying to understand and fix it. I failed.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Well in keeping with most other people'e experience, my wife told me this morning that she couldn't do it. She wanted to wait until she was sleeping better (she has had insomnia for all of the 30 years that I have know her). She was upset that I had asked for a bit of oral sex last night - earlier she had said she was willing to do that more often, but now said she was worried about what else I might try to pressure her into doing.
> 
> So, we are back to where we were - roommates. There is no way out of the maze:
> ...


Sorry, but she broke the marriage vows, not you... you are entitled to get out...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Just to point out...I don't think techmom and GettingIt are the same type of LD. I think techmom is naturally LD and GettingIt was situationally LD. So for instance, I think techmom would probably not be able to raise her D as high as GettingIt has been able to.
> 
> But that is just a guess based on what I understand of both of their stories.
> 
> ...


I hate the LD bashing too (the knee jerk kind). But the understanding and compassion can sometimes swing the pendulum too far the other way.
The LD posters here (and maybe most out there?) are in the category of actually trying and LD for no fault of their own or for understandable circumstances.

But we must recognize a category of LD that are just plain selfish and spiteful. We should not give all LD a pass.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> She finally told me when I packed my bags... I stayed, because I felt sorry for her... that's the truth. And for the children. Of course she had a responsibility to learn, but it's difficult when you grew up like that. I had to guess most of the time and I still do... it's no fun, believe me, but she is what she is and I've accepted it. It doesn't matter any more. I wasted about 10 years of my life trying to understand and fix it. I failed.


It is very difficult to find acceptance, so I do congratulate you for that (sincerely).

I also admire that you care about your kids so much to live with this misery. I'm sure they will never really understand how much you were willing to sacrifice for them.

I hope you have the strength to leave her once you've fulfilled your duty to your children.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I think this is a really good post and captures the hard truth of a sexual mismatch from the HD perspective. The part I bolded is the crux of the problem because when that intimate connection isn't there, the emotional withdrawal often follows. The rejection is just so acutely painful that there really is little the HD spouse can do to stop the withdrawal. They can intellectually decide to stay in the marriage for whatever reason, but they don't feel connected, and they feel that loss pretty much all the time. Yes it affects their attitude and behavior, and yes that often makes it even for difficult for the LD spouse to recognize that it's the mismatch that is to blame, and not bad behavior from the HD spouse.
> 
> I lived with an emotionally withdrawn HD husband for ten years and kept waiting for him to pull himself back into the marriage before I would seriously contemplate working on my desire. I truly believed that until he changed, I couldn't change. Learning that it was really beyond him to change first made all the difference to me.
> 
> ...


you really are 'gettingit'.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> I hate the LD bashing too (the knee jerk kind). But the understanding and compassion can sometimes swing the pendulum too far the other way.
> The LD posters here (and maybe most out there?) are in the category of actually trying and LD for no fault of their own or for understandable circumstances.
> 
> But we must recognize a category of LD that are just plain selfish and spiteful. We should not give all LD a pass.


Selfishness isn't an LD or HD condition--it's a human condition.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> It is very difficult to find acceptance, so I do congratulate you for that (sincerely).
> 
> I also admire that you care about your kids so much to live with this misery. I'm sure they will never really understand how much you were willing to sacrifice for them.
> 
> I hope you have the strength to leave her once you've fulfilled your duty to your children.


That's my plan... I'm not a hero or a saint. If I left, my kids' life would have been terrible. My wife works shifts. I work from home and I support them when she is not there, she is asleep or just too tired. Didn't want them to be disadvantaged.

They might understand one day. The older already knows about her mum's traits... the inability to communicate and open up completely... she's experimented them first hand.

My wife is a good person and we get along generally. We never argue (well, that's impossible!) and have lots in common but we have totally different personalities. I knew that when we got together, but you always think things will get better and not worse... I was wrong. But it's life and I've come to terms with it.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

techmom said:


> The only true solution is to marry someone who you are compatible with, and waiting 3-5 years before you get married is the best way to do this. This allows the PEA chemicals to decrease which will reveal the true libido. Then you will find out if your future wife feels the same as you do about sex, or if she can take it or leave it.


That's not fool-proof though. My husband and I dated for 3 years prior to marriage, and I thought we had the same sex drive(he was all over me), but it all changed after marriage. It's been crushing to feel like your husband does not want/desire you. 



larry.gray said:


> Might as well throw in two young kids a home, one high needs. My wife's drive was fine until then.


I have a high needs toddler boy, but it's never changed my sex drive. Our son is physically and emotionally tiring, but I still want sex all the time.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Selfishness isn't an LD or HD condition--it's a human condition.


and........................?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> and........................?


I think the point being that you can't pin 'selfishness' on low drive or high drive. Both types can easily be selfish.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm finding life a lot easier with the whole sex equation completely gone from my mind. Yes, there is an emotional hole that will never be filled, but you can get used to it and still carry on. In my case, when it happens, it's never mind blowing anyway, more of a physical release that could be obtained other ways, if needed?

They may be selfish, spiteful, ignorant, or may have no idea of why there is no desire, but most are fine with it and see no problem and have the "that's just the way it is" attitude and not care to change and no matter what you do, it doesn't matter, they are either unwilling or unable and the end result is the same.

Sure you can divorce and re marry and try again, but there is no guarantee that it won't happen again. Sometimes it's better to just focus on the good things and forget the bad ones. Next time around could be a lot worse. I feel for the ton of people that are more miserable than I am, I can at least get by each day.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I'm finding life a lot easier with the whole sex equation completely gone from my mind. Yes, there is an emotional hole that will never be filled, but you can get used to it and still carry on. In my case, when it happens, it's never mind blowing anyway, more of a physical release that could be obtained other ways, if needed?
> 
> They may be selfish, spiteful, ignorant, or may have no idea of why there is no desire, but most are fine with it and see no problem and have the "that's just the way it is" attitude and not care to change and no matter what you do, it doesn't matter, they are either unwilling or unable and the end result is the same.
> 
> Sure you can divorce and re marry and try again, but there is no guarantee that it won't happen again. Sometimes it's better to just focus on the good things and forget the bad ones. Next time around could be a lot worse. I feel for the ton of people that are more miserable than I am, I can at least get by each day.


This... it takes a while to get there, but when you get there it's a big relief...


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

LD and HD aren't clear cut like people make them out to be. 

I don't think there is a magic cure all, or that more sex would make everyone hold hands and sing kumbaya. Techmom has explained the LD side very well. It's never going to be good enough for the HD, and the LD is going to feel their efforts are unappreciated.

I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer. People are just different. Neither are going to be completely happy with the compromise. 

But the harsh truth of that is very sad.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I think the point being that you can't pin 'selfishness' on low drive or high drive. Both types can easily be selfish.


amen!


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

TheCuriousWife said:


> LD and HD aren't clear cut like people make them out to be.
> 
> I don't think there is a magic cure all, or that more sex would make everyone hold hands and sing kumbaya. Techmom has explained the LD side very well. It's never going to be good enough for the HD, and the LD is going to feel their efforts are unappreciated.
> 
> ...


That depends on why the person is LD. Is it situational? True LD? Another type? Some LD types can be "fixed", in that they can change, which can lead to hope for the HD spouse. Other types, the compromise just won't make either spouse all that happy, as the LD will be upset for having more sex than they want and the HD will be upset for not having enough.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening in absentia
I would not fault anyone else in my situation for asking for a divorce, but to *me* it would be dishonorable. 

Also, I do actually love her, and don't want to hurt her. I think this is just a part of her makeup that she cannot change. Just as being attached to her is a part of mine that I cannot change .



In Absentia said:


> Sorry, but she broke the marriage vows, not you... you are entitled to get out...


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> That depends on why the person is LD. Is it situational? True LD? Another type? Some LD types can be "fixed", in that they can change, which can lead to hope for the HD spouse. Other types, the compromise just won't make either spouse all that happy, as the LD will be upset for having more sex than they want and the HD will be upset for not having enough.


You are correct.

I was referring to people who are LD, and it's not situational, from health reasons, etc.

Those type of people don't know why they are LD, it's just how they are.

Just like I couldn't tell you why I am HD, it's just how I am.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
One take away from all of this: teach your children. When you talk about sex with them, talk about THIS. This is more important than the mechanics of sex. More important than STDs. More important than anything except pregnancy.

Let them know how important it is to not fall in love with someone who is sexually incompatible.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

GettingIt said:


> We've both got some emotional baggage from the bad years, mostly around being gun shy with risking rejection. We've got great communication now, but sometimes that's not enough, believe it or not. So sometimes I'm just afraid to ask him for sex when I just need it right then and there, which sometimes I do. * For a few days each month my drive is out of control and every waking thought is about sex. (Uh, is that what it's like for men all the time??)*


Yes.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

TheCuriousWife said:


> LD and HD aren't clear cut like people make them out to be.
> 
> I don't think there is a magic cure all, or that more sex would make everyone hold hands and sing kumbaya. Techmom has explained the LD side very well. It's never going to be good enough for the HD, and the LD is going to feel their efforts are unappreciated.
> 
> ...


That is the sad truth, LD & HD will never be compatible, never has and never will be. The most you can hope for is the rest of the marriage is good enough to keep you afloat.

There are definitely extremes, wanting sex every day and not wanting sex every month, but I've always believed if a true love is present, then a fair compromise could be worked out. If you truly have no desire for sex with your spouse anymore, then you shouldn't be married to them. How long would you keep a car, if it didn't run? A strong close marriage will always need sex and there is no way around it. You can get by without it, but your bond will disappear, it is by design that sex brings you closer.

A true LD person should never get married, unless they are paired with a similar person, which in reality makes it two good friends sharing a house and bed and not a marriage anyway.

Call it what you want, but if you're not having sex, then you don't have a marriage. You just pretend you do, like me, to survive.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> We've both got some emotional baggage from the bad years, mostly around being gun shy with risking rejection. We've got great communication now, but sometimes that's not enough, believe it or not. So sometimes I'm just afraid to ask him for sex when I just need it right then and there, which sometimes I do. For a few days each month my drive is out of control and every waking thought is about sex. (*Uh, is that what it's like for high drive individuals all the time??*)


There, I fixed it for you.  Need to get rid of the stereotype that men think about/want sex all the time. It's just not true.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> There, I fixed it for you.  Need to get rid of the stereotype that men think about/want sex all the time. It's just not true.



Correct. I think about getting even far more than about getting laid 

View attachment 33626


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

techmom said:


> Having a person that you love doubt your relationship because you don't want this one thing as much as they do is heartbreaking. HDs frown on "duty sex", they want us to want it as much as them. But just because we can't make you want it less does not mean we have to force ourselves to want it more. You have to accept our gift of making love just for you just as you want us to accept your HD.


Of course I don't speak for all HD spouses. But at least for me, although of course it would be wonderful if my spouse felt the same way about sex as I do, I'm happy that she is willing to give me that gift even though that is not the case.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Really i'm not trying to bash my wife, or LD's in general here. Anybody who knows me knows that.
> 
> I'm really just very frustrated right now.
> 
> ...


Initiate? You mean women initiate sex (with their husbands, not bad boys they meet in bars)? :scratchhead:

Seriously, that would be very nice, but a lot of people here would be very happy with a pleasant acceptance of their own initiations. I know that's quite acceptable to me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

techmom said:


> When HDs make statements like this it puzzles us, because you would want your wife to show desire during sex correct? She wouldn't have to show desire for going to work everyday or cleaning the cat's litter box. If she treated sex like another job she does for you it would not satisfy you, hence the aversion to "duty sex".
> 
> When you make statements like this it leads us to believe it is "just getting your rocks off".


I need sex to feel connected with my wife. "Duty sex" isn't ideal, but it does the job if she does it in a loving way rather than angrily. Fortunately for me, she does it lovingly.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Well in keeping with most other people'e experience, my wife told me this morning that she couldn't do it. She wanted to wait until she was sleeping better (she has had insomnia for all of the 30 years that I have know her). She was upset that I had asked for a bit of oral sex last night - earlier she had said she was willing to do that more often, but now said she was worried about what else I might try to pressure her into doing.
> 
> So, we are back to where we were - roommates. There is no way out of the maze:
> ...


Richard, how was your sex life at the beginning? Was it always like this, and you knowingly got into it, or was it more active at the beginnng? But even if more active, I would think it was still pretty vanilla, since oral sex seems such big deal to her even now.

Have you communicated how miserable you are? Not suggesting, hinting, trying not to hurt her feelings, but telling her very directly, wihtout sugar coating it? "I am very miserable person and I cannot continue like this. How much does this matter to you? Would you like me to be happy? Can you meet me half way? Do you care at all? This is not just sex for me, it is about emotional connection with you."

Some people do not get hints, they need is straight between the eyes to get it.

Would you tell gay person in straight marriage that this is just sex, and they are shallow to be unhappy in this relationship, since they have such wonderful person for a spouse?. Not, because it is not just about sex, it is who they are.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening in absentia
> I would not fault anyone else in my situation for asking for a divorce, but to *me* it would be dishonorable.
> 
> Also, I do actually love her, and don't want to hurt her. I think this is just a part of her makeup that she cannot change. Just as being attached to her is a part of mine that I cannot change .


Fair enough... I understand. I wish you well!


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

technovelist said:


> I need sex to feel connected with my wife. "Duty sex" isn't ideal, but it does the job if she does it in a loving way rather than angrily. Fortunately for me, she does it lovingly.


Duty sex can be loving, depending on the intent & enthusiasm level.
There are also some other kinds like:

"Alright let's get this over with, I'm tired"
"It's late, so let's make this quick"
Hmm, "I wonder what I can wear to work tomorrow"
"You didn't orgasm, then why did we even do this"?

This kind of duty sex is forgetful and worthless and not meeting your partner in the middle. I wonder how many LDs think as long as you do it, then what's the problem? I think the problem is evident, no intimacy or closeness. May as well be farm animals.

Ps- I've been in all of the above scenarios.

It's not about sex, it's about emotional bonding through sex. There is a huge difference. Some LDs will say why can't their partner accept that they just can't desire this one thing. Because this one thing happens to be the glue that holds a marriage together. It's not hiking, eating certain foods or liking certain movies.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> Duty sex can be loving, depending on the intent & enthusiasm level.
> There are also some other kinds like:
> 
> "Alright let's get this over with, I'm tired"
> ...


None of them. Really. They hate that kind of sex, too. They'd rather not have sex.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Well in keeping with most other people'e experience, my wife told me this morning that she couldn't do it. She wanted to wait until she was sleeping better (she has had insomnia for all of the 30 years that I have know her). *She was upset that I had asked for a bit of oral sex last night - earlier she had said she was willing to do that more often, but now said she was worried about what else I might try to pressure her into doing.*
> 
> So, we are back to where we were - roommates. There is no way out of the maze:
> ...


I would assume that LD just means that their desire for sex is less than a normal or HD person. That doesn't mean that the LD dislikes sex, just that they don't want it as much. 

Maybe I'm splitting hairs - IDK - but a number of LD descriptions from the various posters who are suffering with sexless/near-sexless marriages seem to outright dislike sex. Isn't there a difference between a LD person vs a person that dislikes sex period? Again, could be mistaken, but even an asexual person could feel pleasure from sex even and maybe enjoy the experience without ever having a desire to experience it again, right? If someone has an outright dislike for sex, isn't that something different than LD or AD?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I'm finding life a lot easier with the whole sex equation completely gone from my mind. Yes, there is an emotional hole that will never be filled, but you can get used to it and still carry on. In my case, when it happens, it's never mind blowing anyway, more of a physical release that could be obtained other ways, if needed?
> 
> They may be selfish, spiteful, ignorant, or may have no idea of why there is no desire, but most are fine with it and see no problem and have the "that's just the way it is" attitude and not care to change and no matter what you do, it doesn't matter, they are either unwilling or unable and the end result is the same.
> 
> *Sure you can divorce and re marry and try again, but there is no guarantee that it won't happen again. Sometimes it's better to just focus on the good things and forget the bad ones. Next time around could be a lot worse.* I feel for the ton of people that are more miserable than I am, I can at least get by each day.


That sounds like a horrible way to live. No offense intended.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

technovelist said:


> I need sex to feel connected with my wife. "Duty sex" isn't ideal, but it does the job if she does it in a loving way rather than angrily. Fortunately for me, she does it lovingly.


For my wife and I and I would imagine the majority of couples out there with a healthy sex life that the whole composite ends up being a mixed bag. For us, sometimes it's very active and intense, sometimes the intensity is only moderate and sometimes she gives it her best shot even if not in the mood. I think a mixed bag is normal. When you come to the realization that not every sexual encounter will be like wild monkey sex where you run through your rolodex of sex positions and blast the woman's face, tits or ass with your love juice - both partners will be happy.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening WandaJ
It has always been like this - this was no bait / switch. She is legitimately LD. 

There were times when she was adventurous - even got into bondage for a while - but she is TERRIBLE at communicating and I think she didn't enjoy some of the things I did , but wouldn't tell me. (this was 20 years ago). (she was the one to first suggest it, btw, I didn't pressure her in any way).

A few years ago I complained, in fact was about to ask for a divorce and our sex life got much better. She seemed happy, but it gradually declined again until we are on the < 1/month plan.

I think my mentioning oral sex this time made it worse - I knew she wasn't a great fan, but she does it once a year for my birthday. Turns out she really despises it, and is now worried that i may ask for all sorts of (undefined) terrible things. 

The problem is that not only does she rarely want sex, but she is very limited in what she will do. She likes PIV, but only with a vibrator an only until she orgasms (which is very quickly). If we go on too long she gets sore (yes we use lube). Otherwise a HJ is the only option - and despite my gentle hints, she isn't all that good at it. She just tries to get it over with, and clearly gets frustrated when it takes more than a couple of minutes. (I have not mentioned to her that she isn't very skilled - that is the least of the problem).

I did tell her just how unhappy I was, and I think that is what upset her so badly. She knows what it would take to make me happy, and she simply cannot do it. 

I think the model of a gay person in a straight marriage isn't quite right. Every once in a while she really enjoys sex and initiates. She really enjoyes moderate sexual intimacy - tongue kisses, naked hugs, pretty much everything that doesn't involve genitals. 

If you are wondering CSA - I have no reason to think so, but she is completely uncommunicative. 

Other than sex, our lives together are really good. 
She is very happy - said she literally can't think of anything I could do to make things better. The only thing I am unhappy about is the one thing she cannot do.

I think my frustration is increased because we are casually affectionate. I have what appears to everyone else to be an almost perfect life. [Richard Cory]





WandaJ said:


> Richard, how was your sex life at the beginning? Was it always like this, and you knowingly got into it, or was it more active at the beginnng? But even if more active, I would think it was still pretty vanilla, since oral sex seems such big deal to her even now.
> 
> Have you communicated how miserable you are? Not suggesting, hinting, trying not to hurt her feelings, but telling her very directly, wihtout sugar coating it? "I am very miserable person and I cannot continue like this. How much does this matter to you? Would you like me to be happy? Can you meet me half way? Do you care at all? This is not just sex for me, it is about emotional connection with you."
> 
> ...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I would assume that LD just means that their desire for sex is less than a normal or HD person. That doesn't mean that the LD dislikes sex, just that they don't want it as much.
> 
> Maybe I'm splitting hairs - IDK - but a number of LD descriptions from the various posters who are suffering with sexless/near-sexless marriages seem to outright dislike sex. Isn't there a difference between a LD person vs a person that dislikes sex period? Again, could be mistaken, but even an asexual person could feel pleasure from sex even and maybe enjoy the experience without ever having a desire to experience it again, right? If someone has an outright dislike for sex, isn't that something different than LD or AD?


A LD person might start out liking sex just fine. And they like it a few times a month or wherever their innate sex drive is at that point in time. A loving partner with a higher drive spouse might do what is so often is suggested here - have sex anyway out of love for their partner. But a steady diet of doing it for their partner can lead to liking sex less and less. It becomes harder and harder to get into it. It starts to feel like you're just giving over your body but your mind isn't into it/checked out. It's physically uncomfortable. It starts to feel more and more like a violation. Yep, now you're hating on sex, all sex, all the time. 

People don't fit into neat little boxes no matter how hard we try to dissect and categorize them. We aren't all one or the other, black or white.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

norajane said:


> A LD person might start out liking sex just fine. And they like it a few times a month or wherever their innate sex drive is at that point in time. A loving partner with a higher drive spouse might do what is so often is suggested here - have sex anyway out of love for their partner. But a steady diet of doing it for their partner can lead to liking sex less and less. It becomes harder and harder to get into it. It starts to feel like you're just giving over your body but your mind isn't into it/checked out. It's physically uncomfortable. It starts to feel more and more like a violation. Yep, now you're hating on sex, all sex, all the time.
> 
> People don't fit into neat little boxes no matter how hard we try to dissect and categorize them. We aren't all one or the other, black or white.


Thanks for expanding upon the points. These were real inquiries as opposed to the rhetorical or sometimes sarcastic questions that some of us may ask (Sometimes I'm guilty of this myself ).


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I never understood this reluctance about "giving up your body". I've never heard a man use this kind of language to describe having sex.

Is this borne out of some assumption that your body is a prize to be won? If it's not "won" have you unjustly "given" it away?

This whole way of talking about sex is just strange to me.

Even when I hooked up with girls in college who the next morning I thought, "how did I end up here?!" I never thought, "oh, I've just given up my body again!"


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

norajane said:


> A LD person might start out liking sex just fine. And they like it a few times a month or wherever their innate sex drive is at that point in time. A loving partner with a higher drive spouse might do what is so often is suggested here - have sex anyway out of love for their partner. But a steady diet of doing it for their partner can lead to liking sex less and less. It becomes harder and harder to get into it. It starts to feel like you're just giving over your body but your mind isn't into it/checked out. It's physically uncomfortable. It starts to feel more and more like a violation. Yep, now you're hating on sex, all sex, all the time.


That's a good explanation that helps add to my understanding. I'd also like to add that if the HD person doesn't seem to notice how the LD person feels, that makes it worse. And if the HD person isn't skilled or doesn't seem to care about making it good for the LD person that makes it worse.

If someone's LD pace is initiating once every couple of weeks, but they are with a HD partner who tries to initiate every day, if the LD person goes along with it even once a week, they will never get to the point where they need to initiate themselves. This lack of initiation can make the HD person feel undesired because it feels like sex is always up to them.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I would assume that LD just means that their desire for sex is less than a normal or HD person. That doesn't mean that the LD dislikes sex, just that they don't want it as much.
> 
> Maybe I'm splitting hairs - IDK - but a number of LD descriptions from the various posters who are suffering with sexless/near-sexless marriages seem to outright dislike sex. Isn't there a difference between a LD person vs a person that dislikes sex period? Again, could be mistaken, but even an asexual person could feel pleasure from sex even and maybe enjoy the experience without ever having a desire to experience it again, right? If someone has an outright dislike for sex, isn't that something different than LD or AD?


From someone who identifies as asexual- I don't dislike sex. I really don't. Orgasms are great. But for whatever reason, they lack an addictive quality. I don't care about them enough to want one three times a day, and they don't make me feel connected to my SO in any way.
All I get out of sex (besides a happy partner, of course) is that orgasm, that I don't even really care about in the first place, lol.

If my SO decided tomorrow that he never wanted sex again, I'm absolutely cool with that, but since I don't see that happening, I continue to seek out ways to make us both happy through compromise.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Thank you for chiming in ED. I think it is important for people to hear your perspective.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> I would not fault anyone else in my situation for asking for a divorce, but to *me* it would be dishonorable.
> 
> Also, I do actually love her, and don't want to hurt her. I think this is just a part of her makeup that she cannot change. Just as being attached to her is a part of mine that I cannot change .


Richard...what you are saying sounds kind on the surface. But underneath it means this: I blame my unhappiness on my spouse even though it is within my power to change my circumstances.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening faithful wife
Its tough. I honestly believe that my wife would be miserable if I left. Maybe I'm wrong. She acts as if she loves me in every way except for sex. Or maybe she acts as if she NEEDS me. She is very unhappy when I go away on business trips for example. 

It just seems that leaving would be trading my unhappiness for hers. 

She is still upset. She keeps saying that she doesn't want me to be unhappy but that there is nothing she can do. She has "offered" to give me sex, but along with the offer made it clear that it would be a chore, and would make her very unhappy - so not really an offer. 

If a medical problem had prevented her from having any form of sex, I would never consider leaving. Is this really so different?

Yet I know that I would tell another poster in my situation to leave. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Richard...what you are saying sounds kind on the surface. But underneath it means this: I blame my unhappiness on my spouse even though it is within my power to change my circumstances.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Here's something that people rarely consider...but in some cases, if you really just "went there", your spouse would LOVINGLY release you, and they would be ok. I know this is something you just can't imagine. But I can imagine it easily. She does love you. You love her. And if you stood and said "wife, I love you so much, but I can no longer live this way, even though I realize how unhappy you will be if I leave, I just can't live through this torture any longer...I know you may not understand, but I ask you not to hate me and to realize this is a painfully horrible decision for me, one which I have tried to avoid making for decades. But please find it in your heart to let me go, as I have decided that is what I need to do for myself. I'm so sorry and I will be as fair and loving to you as possible while we separate, etc..." And obviously this could be more that one talk but...

Notice this is not an ultimatum, it is "I'm sorry, I just can't do this".

Notice there is no malice or resentment or hate in this message.

Notice there is compassion and love and empathy, but ultimately you are simply choosing to leave for a happier life...and when someone really does love you, they can actually understand this.

Yes, this is really different than someone having a medical condition, I'm sorry but able bodied people shouldn't use that example to speculate with (my brother is a parapalegic). It is just very far out there and deflects from your actual situation.

I can imagine your wife being very sad, but ultimately, later on...being happy again, and happy for you. Because she DOES love you.

But honestly, if you are going to choose her happiness over yours, then can you just do it without blaming her for your choice? Which means, full acceptance of where you are and not pining over where you'd rather be.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's something that people rarely consider...but in some cases, if you really just "went there", your spouse would LOVINGLY release you, and they would be ok. I know this is something you just can't imagine. But I can imagine it easily. She does love you. You love her. And if you stood and said "wife, I love you so much, but I can no longer live this way, even though I realize how unhappy you will be if I leave, I just can't live through this torture any longer...I know you may not understand, but I ask you not to hate me and to realize this is a painfully horrible decision for me, one which I have tried to avoid making for decades. But please find it in your heart to let me go, as I have decided that is what I need to do for myself. I'm so sorry and I will be as fair and loving to you as possible while we separate, etc..." And obviously this could be more that one talk but...
> 
> Notice this is not an ultimatum, it is "I'm sorry, I just can't do this".
> 
> ...


That is a great way to express it and I believe a spouse would eventually understand this, after they got over some sadness & some probable anger or resentment?

I'm in a similar position as Richard, in that I've mostly chosen my wife's happiness over my own as well. I don't blame her for anything though, it has and always will be my choice to stay, so that forfeits complaining. I just try and understand and change things when I can?

I used to dwell on the "what could be or what should be" with someone else, but to me, it's all fantasy, like dreaming you had superpowers or were filthy rich. At the end of the day, you live with your decisions and do the best you can with them.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That sounds like a horrible way to live. No offense intended.


It isn't fun, but manageable.

To be honest, I've gotten used to struggles. I've had 3 major spinal surgeries that eventually took a job that I loved, drums I loved playing, teaching martial arts, which I did for over 20+ years(I have 2 black belts in different systems) and having to be extremely cautious with everything I do from now on.

Add a celiac like condition to my plate, a few years a go and now I'm gluten free, which means no more "fun" food.

My wife always says that if I had all of these things still, that I wouldn't have a problem with our marriage, she just doesn't get it? Yes, they would be enjoyable distractions, but not a cure all.

I don't know of anyone that wouldn't trade everything to have a happy & rewarding relationship with their spouse. When you have that, nothing else matters.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Once you've accepted it, you are fine... yes, it's no much fun, but I can think of much worse things in life... anyway, I'm not planning to stay forever, so it's bearable... there's some light at the end of the tunnel...


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Once you've accepted it, you are fine... yes, it's no much fun, but I can think of much worse things in life... anyway, I'm not planning to stay forever, so it's bearable... there's some light at the end of the tunnel...


I'm probably a lifer. I've drawn so many lines in the sand and eventually erase them all, the last one was leaving by the age of 50, if still unhappy? I passed that and stayed, so I quit drawing lines.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I'm probably a lifer. I've drawn so many lines in the sand and eventually erase them all, the last one was leaving by the age of 50, if still unhappy? I passed that and stayed, so I quit drawing lines.


I'm waiting for my little one to be 18... another 4 years... and I'm 51... so, I guess, my line in the sand is 55... we'll see...


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

The million dollar question I have for LD spouses is this: Do you want to change yourself or do you just want your spouse to adjust or conform to your desire levels?

I've learned that the only way to live in any kind of peaceful harmony is you have to pick sides. Either you drift closer to being HD or they drift closer to being LD, staying on complete opposite sides will never work.
This is basically what my counselor told me and I've made the decision to drift more toward her, since she wasn't coming to me. Things are a lot more tolerable when you both could take it or leave it. Don't get me wrong, I would still love a real sexual relationship, but when you long for a steak dinner & you have to settle for cheese & crackers, you lose excitement after a while.

I've always been quality over quantity. If my wife would "curl my toes" even once a month, I would be more than happy. I've become like a camel, I can go long periods in drought now and not be any worse off.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

sorry, I'm not a LD woman  but I'd like to add that, for me, the biggest problem has become the lack of intimacy. We have become brother and sister. In fact, I feel a bit awkward around my wife now. This is why I've decided we have no future. I don't feel we are a couple any more. But I had to detach for my mental sanity.

I think she's accepted that she can't have an emotional bond if she doesn't want sex. It doesn't work like that for me. I told her this. She has not taken any action to rectify the situation, so I assume she is ok with it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I'm waiting for my little one to be 18... another 4 years... and I'm 51... so, I guess, my line in the sand is 55... we'll see...


kids to college is my line in sand, although not over sex....


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

richard, this is very heartbraking story. It is basically Greek tragedy - whatever you do, there is pain.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Doesn't she have some responsibility to learn how to be open, to communicate? Are you supposed to guess what is going through her head?
> 
> I get that you've figured it out on your own, which is great, but why should you have to spend so much energy to figure her out?


Because of the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

GettingIt said:


> My drive has ebbed and flowed in the 25 years I've been with my husband. I've been the LD living with an emotionally withdrawn spouse, and since my drive is now regularly through the roof, I know what it's like to be the more HD partner. At the most, I've suffered, on occasion, a few days or a week of extreme HD when my husband wouldn't or couldn't help me out, or I just couldn't ask. It was mental, emotional and physical torture. And that was with knowing it would pass in a few days, or that if I could just bring myself to ask, my husband would be happy to help. I cannot fathom living ten years like that and although my husband is very kind and implores me to move on from the guilt, it's hard.


This should be a sticky.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

And perhaps someone who is naturally LD and always will be could also write a paragraph about the pain, heartache, and bullying they've encountered from their HD spouse, and we can make that a sticky, too.

There's no reason to only have compassion for the side you are currently on.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> The million dollar question I have for LD spouses is this: Do you want to change yourself or do you just want your spouse to adjust or conform to your desire levels?


Neither?

I have no desire to see my spouse become someone he isn't because of/for me. That's why I fight so hard to initiate often and find ways to enjoy sex with him.

But at the same time, I'm not sure how much power I have to change my body. I CAN change how much we have sex and have, but that doesn't make me high drive. I can't seem to get my drive to budge at all. And honestly, living life as an HD person sounds horrible to me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> One take away from all of this: teach your children. When you talk about sex with them, talk about THIS. This is more important than the mechanics of sex. More important than STDs. More important than anything except pregnancy.
> 
> Let them know how important it is to not fall in love with someone who is sexually incompatible.


Yes, that is very important, but how can one be sure? There are too many tales of "it was great until xxx, then nothing" for me to be confident that it is possible to know in advance...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> From someone who identifies as asexual- I don't dislike sex. I really don't. Orgasms are great. But for whatever reason, they lack an addictive quality. I don't care about them enough to want one three times a day, and they don't make me feel connected to my SO in any way.
> All I get out of sex (besides a happy partner, of course) is that orgasm, that I don't even really care about in the first place, lol.
> 
> If my SO decided tomorrow that he never wanted sex again, I'm absolutely cool with that, but since I don't see that happening, I continue to seek out ways to make us both happy through compromise.


I commend you for your outstanding attitude!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> Neither?
> 
> I have no desire to see my spouse become someone he isn't because of/for me. That's why I fight so hard to initiate often and find ways to enjoy sex with him.
> 
> But at the same time, I'm not sure how much power I have to change my body. I CAN change how much we have sex and have, but that doesn't make me high drive. I can't seem to get my drive to budge at all. And honestly, living life as an HD person sounds horrible to me.


Being HD is like being a drug addict. Really, the only difference is that this "drug" is legal and doesn't have negative side effects; in fact, it has positive side effects.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> And perhaps someone who is naturally LD and always will be could also write a paragraph about the pain, heartache, and bullying they've encountered from their HD spouse, and we can make that a sticky, too.
> 
> There's no reason to only have compassion for the side you are currently on.


Of course not all HD spouses bully their LD spouses, just as not all LD spouses refuse even duty sex. But I agree with your point about having compassion for the other side.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> And perhaps someone who is naturally LD and always will be could also write a paragraph about the pain, heartache, and bullying they've encountered from their HD spouse, and we can make that a sticky, too.
> .



While they are doing that I would love it if they would just add their game plan for the "relationship honeymoon" phase where sex was plentiful, and also their game plan for the transition period where they went from happy couple to TAM fodder material.

As much sympathy as anyone can muster for LD's one can't help but wonder how they managed the honeymoon phase and the transition phase by withholding something far more valuable than sex.

The truth.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

technovelist said:


> Yes, that is very important, but how can one be sure? There are too many tales of "it was great until xxx, then nothing" for me to be confident that it is possible to know in advance...


You can never be entirely sure. However, there are ways to mitigate the risks, and ways to deal with future changes if you really want to address those potential issues at the beginning of a relationship.

First, most people have higher drives in the first one to two years of a new sexual relationship, when hormones are at a peak. These wear off, and then you see the baseline libido for most people, assuming there aren't other issues suppressing it (and if there ARE other issues, then why stay together?). So, waiting at least two years before marrying or having children can reduce the risk of a libido mismatch. Also, during that first year or so, if there is still an obvious mismatch despite the raging hormones, you can see that there will be larger problems in the future. Seriously, love alone is NOT enough to sustain a happy and healthy relationship.

Second, you can agree in advance to solutions for future mismatches. These can range from agreeing to a minimum level of sexual intimacy (a service level agreement/SLA), agreeing to IC or MC if the issues are interpersonal rather than innate, medical intervention for hormone adjustment, opening the relationship so the HD person can seek satisfaction elsewhere (and the LD agrees to provide verification if asked), and as a last resort, agreeing to an uncontested divorce and a fair split in assets, etc. (a prenup or postnup is a good way to formalize this). The solutions can be combined or cascade depending on what's been tried so far.

We didn't marry (for a variety of reasons) until we both knew for sure we are both HD. (It helps that it's a second marriage for us both, and neither of us wanted more children.) We both agreed that neither of us wants to live in a sexless marriage, but we may still love each other even if that occurs, so we will open the relationship as a first option (assuming the typical and usually fruitless IC, MC, medical, or other interventions don't fix things), and divorce but remain friends as a final option.

Edit: I'll also note that we have discussed and agreed on a variety of contingency plans for a variety of possible issues and scenarios: financial problems, health issues, living locations, caring for elderly parents, etc. Being able to discuss and agree on a variety of very tough issues has brought us closer together and gives us some peace of mind and security should we ever have to deal with any of these things.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening technovelist
Someone who has lots of sex to "trap" a spouse, then stops has in my mind deceived their partner. I would have not compunctions at all about divorcing such a person.

What education would help is in letting people understand that there is a huge variation in human desires and that eve everyone is being honest they can avoid long term unhappy relationships. I think many young people think that interest in sex is fairly uniform (at least within a gender). HDs imagine that once things settle down and everyone is happy and comfortable there will be hot passionate sex at least several times a week. LDs think that once things settle down, sex might be nice thing to do maybe every month or so. 



technovelist said:


> Yes, that is very important, but how can one be sure? There are too many tales of "it was great until xxx, then nothing" for me to be confident that it is possible to know in advance...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I think that it comes down to how important is sex and intimacy.

I understand some peoples decision not to leave in a sexless marriage. I consider myself a medium drive person (3 x/wk), but I lived without sex for many years as a single bachelor. I trained myself to not need sex.
I don't really have to have it. some people really like it, but could live without it. some people it makes them miserable. Me it doesn't.

I wouldn't even have left my sexless ex if it weren't for the cheating. the sexlessness wasn't what made me leave.

So it all comes down to where sex is on your hierarchy of needs.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> While they are doing that I would love it if they would just add their game plan for the "relationship honeymoon" phase where sex was plentiful, and also their game plan for the transition period where they went from happy couple to TAM fodder material.
> 
> As much sympathy as anyone can muster for LD's one can't help but wonder how they managed the honeymoon phase and the transition phase by withholding something far more valuable than sex.
> 
> The truth.


John, it's not necessarily so. Some HDers just become less interested after a few years in the relationship and children... and become LDers... but I do agree that everybody should always be honest and truthful at all times... if you have become LD, just say so!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

technovelist said:


> Of course not all HD spouses bully their LD spouses, just as not all LD spouses refuse even duty sex. But I agree with your point about having compassion for the other side.


But not all LD spouses will have the type of epiphany that GettingIt had...so why should hers be a sticky either then?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But not all LD spouses will have the type of epiphany that GettingIt had...so why should hers be a sticky either then?


I think they should both be stickies.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

technovelist said:


> Being HD is like being a drug addict. Really, the only difference is that this "drug" is legal and doesn't have negative side effects; in fact, it has positive side effects.


Not sure I would liken wanting to be close to your spouse, the same as being a drug addict?

HD & LD, to me has always meant an emotional desire to bond with and not physical horniness. If you were constantly horny, without release, that would be horrible.

HD people didn't just decide that sex was to be the thing they needed to feel close to their partner? Without sex, you're friends, that's the only thing that separates the two.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Me too. But also...I don't think it is fair to try to paint LD's with one brush, and although GettingIt's story is awesome and so encouraging for people to read, if it is treated as if this is common and how other LD's "should" feel or be, that just isn't true or fair or good for anyone.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> Not sure I would liken wanting to be close to your spouse, the same as being a drug addict?
> 
> HD & LD, to me has always meant an emotional desire to bond with and not physical horniness. If you were constantly horny, without release, that would be horrible.
> 
> HD people didn't just decide that sex was to be the thing they needed to feel close to their partner? Without sex, you're friends, that's the only thing that separates the two.


I'm not referring to merely physical horniness, but the desire to be close to your partner.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

technovelist said:


> I'm not referring to merely physical horniness, but the desire to be close to your partner.


That should be a given. If you really love someone, you should want to be close to them. This is the main thing that HDs don't understand about LDs and why there are hurt feelings.

I don't place blame on either side, and realize people can't help themselves, if they've always been that way, but like I said before, if you've always been a low desire/low sex drive person, with little to no interest in sex, then don't get married. All you will do is torture your spouse.

I never understood why couples that had no sex life before marriage, with their partner, go ahead and get married anyway, thinking things will change???

I believe a lot of these problems could have been avoided if people were honest with each other. But think about it, how many people will marry someone who doesn't like sex or can live without it? I'm thinking very few, so at the risk of losing them, they save that little secret for later.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

technovelist said:


> I think they should both be stickies.


Folks.... let's not use the word "stickies" around HD people too much. Their mind is always in the gutter


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> And honestly, living life as an HD person sounds horrible to me.


It is all I've ever known so anything else is foreign to me.

It can suck when there is no outlet. But when you have an equal as a partner: pure bliss.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I am LD/asexual, engaged to a HD guy. Through compromising and working together, we have a sex life that makes us both happy.
> 
> I don't post here often because the few times I have, I've received some really nasty PMs attacking me and my relationship. It seems like anything I can say or any problems I may ask about are discounted because I am truly LD and just a 'selfish shrew', so I just don't bother anymore. I do lurk and read threads so I know what not to do, but that's about it these days.


This subject is an important one, as it consistently comes up on the forums. I appreciate that there seems to be a push to get LD's to come forward and give their perspective.

Do please in the future report any replies made to your posts or sent via PM that are in violation of the forum guidelines.

Disagreement and disapproval is to be expected, name calling and personal attacks are not.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is what confuses me. We understand that sex is important and it is a way you show and receive love. Why compare it to a mundane chore?





For me, such comparisons have never been about trying to convince my wife to have sex with me. In fact, I am pretty sure I have never made such a comparison explicitly to my wife.



But indeed it has occurred to me that I have put much energy into our life together, and much energy and time in service to her values, hopes, and dreams. And, whether anyone believes it or not, it has been extremely painful to be rejected over and over again. I am not lying when I say so little as a 10 minute HJ once a month would have made a big difference in my life -- but, she could not be bothered. If she had shown ANY interest in figuring out why she does not want me, or simply told me directly the truth as she knew it, that too would have meant a lot.



So, the comparison could be with anything I have done with a cheerful heart for her. The comparison is she is not willing to do certain things with a cheerful heart for me, nor is she willing to help figure out why and close the gap. That comparison isn't made to coerce her or anyone to do something undesired. But, I think that comparison is useful, and helps me see what importance my needs and happiness have or don't have in her heart.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

woundedwarrior said:


> That should be a given. If you really love someone, you should want to be close to them. This is the main thing that HDs don't understand about LDs and why there are hurt feelings.
> 
> I don't place blame on either side, and realize people can't help themselves, if they've always been that way, but like I said before, *if you've always been a low desire/low sex drive person, with little to no interest in sex, then don't get married. All you will do is torture your spouse.*
> I never understood why couples that had no sex life before marriage, with their partner, go ahead and get married anyway, thinking things will change???
> ...


The underlined text ignores that fact that there are both LD men and women. There is no reason why they cannot marry each other. Being LD does not mean that the person should never marry.

There are even dating websites for LD and asexual people.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The underlined text ignores that fact that there are both LD men and women. There is no reason why they cannot marry each other. Being LD does not mean that the person should never marry.
> 
> There are even dating websites for LD and asexual people.


You are right, good point. Being honest in the beginning is still a huge problem, I think.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There's no such thing as 'sex drive' after all according to Emily Nagoski | Metro News

Why? Because according to sex educator and author Emily Nagoski, there’s no such thing as a sex drive.

Talking to New Scientist, Emily explained: ‘A drive is a motivational system to deal with life-or-death issues, like hunger or being too cold.’

She went on: ‘You’re not going to die if you don’t have sex.’

Emily Nagoski went on to explain that there are two different types of desire – spontaneous desire and responsive desire – and that the idea of there being a sex drive is based on the expectation that a spontaneous desire for sex is the norm.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> There's no such thing as 'sex drive' after all according to Emily Nagoski | Metro News
> 
> Why? Because according to sex educator and author Emily Nagoski, there’s no such thing as a sex drive.
> 
> ...


I looked up the New Scientist interview this article quotes from, and she says:



> Roughly 70 per cent of men typically experience spontaneous desire and something like 10 to 20 per cent of women have spontaneous desire as their primary desire style. But for all of us it depends on the context.


So when she's saying spontaneous desire isn't the norm, she's considering those stats, and trying to help people stop classifying responsive desire as dysfunctional or not normal because so many people have responsive desire. 

I think LD and responsive desire do get confused, certainly on TAM they do. And the HD's on TAM certainly believe their spouses are dysfunctional, whether their drive is innately low or responsive. LD's probably think their HD spouses are dysfunctional and not normal, hence the "pervert" accusations.

Walk a mile in another person's shoes...too bad few can really try to do that when they're hurting.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

norajane said:


> I looked up the New Scientist interview this article quotes from, and she says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the record, I don't think my wife's lack of interest in sex with me is something that would lead me to classify her as "dysfunctional".

In the beginning, her explanation of her lack of desire suggested there was a major physical component to her lack of desire -- and that that physical component was something new (hormone changes from giving birth and breast-feeding for a very long time, taking anti-depressants). There was more than a lack of desire -- there was also an new inability to reach orgasm, even on her own when completely alone. 

So "dysfunction" seemed to be her own self-diagnosis, and I was eager to see it that way.... because, a medical issue seems less like a reflection on me and her feelings towards me, plus a medical issue seemed (naively) "easier to fix". My point is there can be other reasons why it gets framed as a "dysfunction" besides lack of empathy or understanding from the HD.

I would agree LD and responsive desire get confused. Making it even more difficult is, I believe, that as the mismatch in desire/response and the sexual conflicts persist over a long period of time, the underlying causes can change. For instance, it seems likely that what caused the initial fracture in my wife and I's sex life was circumstances, including physical/biological ones. But, over time, other damage was done (perhaps I didn't handle it well enough, or perhaps she was hurting too much to take that walk in my shoes, or ?). So, now 15 years later, the stressful circumstances of having toddlers and breast-feeding and both of us being depressed are no longer factors. But, we no longer like each other, or at least we no longer trust each other, so, of course there is no desire either way. That's not dysfunction in her. It just "is".


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

norajane said:


> I looked up the New Scientist interview this article quotes from, and she says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, that made me want to look it up too There's no such thing as a sex drive - opinion - 03 April 2015 - New Scientist
and it really consolidated some of what my own research has indicated to me. In some thread somewhere (there are a LOT of LD threads right now) I had commented about a Ted talk about sex starved marriages. The speaker had mentioned that the usual sequence of sex was desire->arousal->orgasm->afterglow but in some people, the first two were switched. To feel desire, the person first had to be already aroused.

Now you have someone else calling it responsive desire instead of spontaneous desire.

So many of these conversations we're having are about the HD people complaining that their LD partner just doesn't seem to desire sex, and the LD people are saying it doesn't work like that for them.

I think one of the best thing people, either LD or HD, who are in a mismatched relationship can do is understand what's going on, and what BOTH of them can team up to do to improve the situation.

For one partner to just blame the other partner for the mismatch problem and expect them to do all the changing will never work.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Sometimes, the HD-LD divide is just too great to bridge. It got that way over time, there was a bait-and-switch, both partners are too stubborn to change. Who knows. Accept it as it is, or divorce, but don't drive the marriage into the ground with complaints and resentment.

But for all those comments that if the LD person had been honest with the HD person in the beginning, they would have avoided marriage, that's basically assuming that this person you love is a manipulative liar. Well, some people are, that's true, but most likely your currently LD spouse was not that way back then.

In the beginning, there are all kinds of limerence hormones going on in the LD person that make them feel higher D and they don't know it's going to change after a few years of marriage. Or maybe they are not really enjoying sex as much as they want to, but assume it will improve as the years go by, but it doesn't. Maybe the stress of adulthood dampens their libido over time.

But the now-LD person DOES assume that their partner will respect these changes because they vowed to be married 'for better or for worse' and worse includes lowered sex frequency. They do NOT assume their partner married 'only as long as the frequency of sex stays up.' And the HD partner feels the same way. They DID marry for better or for worse, but just didn't imagine how bad 'worse' could be. So now they feel trapped, and can't help but feel it was done deliberately.

There's unfortunately little that can be done outside of counselling (which BOTH partners have to participate in) to help a long-term mismatched libido marriage.

But there are ways for HD or LD people to avoid a marriage with a mismatch from the start. They need to have premarital sex for a few years, and open honest communication about their attitudes towards sex.

Doesn't seem right quoting myself, but here's something I put in another recent HD-LD thread (with an addition someone else suggested and a few new ones from me based on recent reading of these threads):

HD thoughts go something like this
- sex is very important to me, as essential as breathing and eating
- I think about sex a LOT
- when I'm stressed out, sex is great because it relaxes me
- I need to have sex to feel emotionally connected with my partner
- sex makes me feel good, even if I'm tired or feeling sick
- I don't really understand how my partner can not want sex sometimes
- if I'm unhappy about anything, sex will cheer me up
- not having sex makes me feel unloved
- there's always time for sex, if not, make time
- when I show affection or do nice things for my partner, I hope it leads to sex
- people should have sex even when they don't want it to please their partner anyway
- because they love me, my partner should respect my need to have sex
- how can everyone not enjoy sex as much as I do?
- my default setting is wanting sex
- my partner's pleasure should come along with my own
- bad sex is better than no sex at all
- if I was single, I'd want FWBs, ONSs or a lot of masturbation

LD thoughts go something like this
- sex is nice but not essential, it's optional, like dessert
- I don't think about sex unless something reminds me of it
- it's hard to want sex when I'm under stress
- I need to feel emotionally connected to my partner to want sex
- if I'm not feeling well or tired, I don't even want to think about sex
- I don't really understand how my partner can want sex all the time
- I only want to have sex when I'm already happy
- being wanted for sex all the time makes me feel used instead of loved
- sometimes there are just too many other things to do besides sex that use up my time
- when my partner shows affection or does nice things, they probably want sex in return
- when I don't want sex, being coerced or forced into it makes it feel unpleasant, like a chore
- because they love me, my partner should respect my desire to not have sex
- sex is just not usually as pleasant as everybody makes it out to be
- my default setting is not thinking about sex
- my partner's pleasure always feels more important than mine
- no sex at all is better than bad sex
- if I was single, I'd go without, or masturbate now and then

Couples should sit down and think about these things separately and then discuss their opinions of where they land, and if they think they will change over time. Most people will probably be a mix of both, but some might clearly be one or the other. If they don't match on which one it is, they have more information with which to make their decision to get married or not.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Sometimes, the HD-LD divide is just too great to bridge. It got that way over time, there was a bait-and-switch, both partners are too stubborn to change. Who knows. Accept it as it is, or divorce, but don't drive the marriage into the ground with complaints and resentment.
> 
> But for all those comments that if the LD person had been honest with the HD person in the beginning, they would have avoided marriage, that's basically assuming that this person you love is a manipulative liar. Well, some people are, that's true, but most likely your currently LD spouse was not that way back then.
> 
> ...


Another one that should be a sticky.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

These are the reasons I wrote my series of blog posts about sexlessness...to help raise awareness and hopefully help people who haven't chosen yet.

Sexy+Positive Blog: Why Do Some Relationships Become Sexless?

Sexy+Positive Blog: Survey Says Sexlessness Sucks

Sexy+Positive Blog: Survey Respondents Describe How Much Sexlessness Sucks

More than a few TAM folks took this survey and answered very respectfully but honestly.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Lila said:


> Sadly, this thread is a great example of the kind of backlash LD's receive here. This isn't even a thread _started by_ or _discussing _LD issues but the LD bashing is still happening {sigh}.
> 
> If I was an LD person seeking help, there's no way I would ever start a thread under these conditions.


I don't like seeing people get their feelings hurt and try to be polite myself. I don't always succeed, but I do try. At the same time though, I've seen more than a few LD's come here spouting platitudes that are demonstrably false. 

This is the internet and you don't do that unless you want to be gang tackled.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I don't like seeing people get their feelings hurt and try to be polite myself. I don't always succeed, but I do try. At the same time though, I've seen more than a few LD's come here spouting platitudes that are demonstrably false.
> 
> This is the internet and you don't do that unless you want to be gang tackled.


Really, the majority of the folks here don't bash anyone until they cop a 'tude on a sensitive subject. If you can't handle being told your opinion is suspect on TAM, you're skin is WAY too thin for the internet.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Really, the majority of the folks here don't bash anyone until they cop a 'tude on a sensitive subject. If you can't handle being told your opinion is suspect on TAM, you're skin is WAY too thin for the internet.


Here it is. No one is doing this UNTIL. What a load of ****. Trust me. Speaking as any kind of LD will get your ass handed to you on this board. I am not one. But I can see it. And it is ugly and not useful to anyone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Here it is. No one is doing this UNTIL. What a load of ****. Trust me. Speaking as any kind of LD will get your ass handed to you on this board. I am not one. But I can see it. And it is ugly and not useful to anyone.



And for a good reason. Because few people are in TAM without some issue or another, and sex is about as good an issue as any. So sympathy is running low these days.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Here it is. No one is doing this UNTIL. What a load of ****. Trust me. Speaking as any kind of LD will get your ass handed to you on this board. I am not one. But I can see it. And it is ugly and not useful to anyone.


I stand by my ****-load statement. Most people don't flame the LD folks most of the time. Which is not the same as saying the LD folks don't get flamed in almost every thread. Once in a while one comes in with such a suck-it attitude that they get a little of what they deserve. 

A few bad apples in the bunch and all. And before you continue to ride my ass about this, you might want to get a better background on my particular history on this topic.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I stand by my ****-load statement. *Most people don't flame the LD* folks most of the time. *Which is not the same as saying the LD folks don't get flamed* in almost every thread. Once in a while one comes in with such a suck-it attitude that they get a little of what they deserve.
> 
> A few bad apples in the bunch and all. And before you continue to ride my ass about this, you might want to get a better background on my particular history on this topic.


Actually that is pretty fair. I was not trying to ride you in particular. Sorry.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Actually that is pretty fair. I was not trying to ride you in particular. Sorry.


NP. My skin is thick enough for the internet.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> NP. My skin is thick enough for the internet.


Your avatar makes you look like a nerd.

Ducking.... But only if you can hit hard enough.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

john117 said:


> And for a good reason. Because few people are in TAM without some issue or another, and sex is about as good an issue as any. *So sympathy is running low these days.*


John, just because some people's situations suck doesn't mean we should take it out on others seeking help for their sucky situations...They are here for help. 

I understand people get "triggered" But, people should try and recognize that and avoid the thread.

I never read or post in CWI. No thanks...It turns my stomach and I avoid it like the plague.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Your avatar makes you look like a nerd.
> 
> Ducking.... But only if you can hit hard enough.


She thinks I'm sexy ...










I only hit wimmin' with no teeth. Less chance to scrape a knuckle.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I personally don't take it out on anyone regardless of issue, and tgere has been a single poster that I SHOULD but seemed to vanish just when I joined TAM. Lady of The Lake I think. Mrs. Copper Top would have been a close second but I would not want to upset her...

There's no point lashing out to any particular LD sighting - few share common characteristics.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think most of the hostility occurs when someone implies that others *should* be doing something where that suggestion makes negative and incorrect assumptions about their situation. 

If (just as an example) you tell someone their partner being LD must mean that they are terrible in bed, that will get them angry. Or if you tell someone that they should just be happy to have sex with their partner, when that partner is a disgusting pig, then the same applies.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Actually, I think (i) maybe you are not that physically attractive and (ii) maybe you are not that good in bed are 2 of the more likely causes / reasons for the mismatch. If you look in the mirror and honestly say "my spouse is better looking than me, and probably has had more sexual partners," then I think the odds of one or both of the above being true is fairly high. Not reason to get angry. Reason to question whether you married the right person. If they did not marry you for your looks or your technique, and what they wanted was something else, maybe you should rethink whether you really want to stay married to them. HDs can have thin skin too.

And I am the less attractive less experienced HD partner in my marriage, so this is not a hypothetical issue for me.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

There was a thread started by a HD who discussed having an open marriage with his LD wife, the wife said to him that if the marriage is open for him why not for her too. Many HDs on the thread found this to be unfair for the wife to say, because her LD is the reason why he was frustrated and seeking other partners. One poster kept bringing up the viewpoint that maybe she is bored in the relationship and was not attracted to the HD husband anymore. The op kept posting things to the effect of, "well if she wants sex, here I am!". One other poster stated that the op was avoiding this observation because it is too painful to contemplate that his LD wife may be turned on by someone else.

I wonder sometimes, when there is a HD who refuses to leave the relationship, if the real fear is that the HD feel s so unattractive after dealing with a sexless marriage that they can't see themselves with someone else better than the LD partner. While the LD may find someone who they are attracted to and start to enjoy a physical relationship with them. 

Which leads the HD to feel, why can't it be me?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think a lot of HD's who complain but never leave are actually LD themselves, they are just hiding behind their LD spouse and blaming the lack of sex on them.

So they know there's no point in leaving the relationship, since they know they wouldn't pursue a better sexual relationship anyway.

Having the LD there as their scapegoat to blame all the marital problems on lets them off the hook for looking at any of their own problems.

Anon Pink's situation was sort of like this (her husband being the HD who was actually LD because he wasn't confident about sex, so he'd complain about the lack of it to keep up appearances and make it seem like Anon's fault that their sex life sucked, thereby keeping the spot light off himself).

I think john117's is, too.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

> Having the LD there as their scapegoat to blame all the marital problems on lets them off the hook for looking at any of their own problems.


I see this dynamic in plenty of threads and in my own marriage.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> I personally don't take it out on anyone regardless of issue, and tgere has been a single poster that I SHOULD but seemed to vanish just when I joined TAM. Lady of The Lake I think. Mrs. Copper Top would have been a close second but I would not want to upset her...
> 
> There's no point lashing out to any particular LD sighting - few share common characteristics.


Lady of the Lake had a very good post I remember reading long ago. Confession Of A Former LD Wife


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think a lot of HD's who complain but never leave are actually LD themselves, they are just hiding behind their LD spouse and blaming the lack of sex on them.
> 
> So they know there's no point in leaving the relationship, since they know they wouldn't pursue a better sexual relationship anyway.
> 
> ...



I beg to differ.

What you consider HD in most of us non "sex fiend / sex god" type people is actually ND, or normal desire. (Kindly notice the quotes )

So in numeric terms we are not as HD others, and sex - or any other single item - does not overwhelm our live. 

Would I cycle 100 miles a day if I could? Spend 8 hours a day trying to best Adam Ansel? No. Average is good 

I could explain this in terms of "self selecting sample" also in that those staying in a low sex marriage may get their other needs fulfilled somehow. I can't double my salary on my own so in the grand scheme of things divide her salary by the amount of sex forfeited and we are talking serious dollars per forfeited encounter... I know putting it this way is super crass but that does not make one LD.

Finally, I can't speak of others but confidence in sex is a non issue for me. I grew up as a village boy / part time city boy and that provided opportunities my fellow full time city boys would not dream about . 

Confidence in life not an issue either. When your work is shown at and groped by the Hoi Polloi at every consumer electronics show in the country with millions of dollars at stake, confidence is your best chance. 

So, to summarize, yea, we are not mink level HD but we are not corpses either


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> Actually, I think (i) maybe you are not that physically attractive and (ii) maybe you are not that good in bed are 2 of the more likely causes / reasons for the mismatch. If you look in the mirror and honestly say "my spouse is better looking than me, and probably has had more sexual partners," then I think the odds of one or both of the above being true is fairly high. Not reason to get angry. Reason to question whether you married the right person. If they did not marry you for your looks or your technique, and what they wanted was something else, maybe you should rethink whether you really want to stay married to them. HDs can have thin skin too.
> 
> And I am the less attractive less experienced HD partner in my marriage, so this is not a hypothetical issue for me.


Every study I've read on the topic says that the main reason for a low sex, or sexless marriage, has nothing to do with the looks of either spouse. Usually it's because the withholding person has resentment and anger towards their spouse.

In most marriages where there is little to no sex, it's not about LD at all. 

The term LD implies a condition caused by low hormones. The number of marriages in which the withholding spouse is actually LD is, well, pretty low.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> I could explain this in terms of "self selecting sample" also in that those staying in a low sex marriage may get their other needs fulfilled somehow. I can't double my salary on my own so in the grand scheme of things divide her salary by the amount of sex forfeited and we are talking serious dollars per forfeited encounter... *I know putting it this way is super crass but that does not make one LD*.


Actually, it kind of does.

Unless you are saying you are getting it on the side...because I think you implied that. If that's what you meant, then of course it makes sense. You are still getting sex somehow.

If that's not what you meant, you just meant other needs like money being fulfilled makes it ok that you are not sexually fulfilled, then I would say that puts you in LD territory, especially for decades at a time.

Plus if I am not mistaken, you said you were LD yourself to me once in a similar discussion. If I have that wrong (or if you didn't mean it the way I think you did) then let me know. But I'm guessing you are ok with monthly or less sex, and that does kinda equal LD.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

OP, there are lots of LD guys on here, some like me are open about it. In theory I'm HD, sex is on my brain constantly, but in practice I'm a 2 or 3 times a month kinda guy. It works out well for me because my GF is the same way, we both have dirty minds and love sex with each other, even though we don't have a whole lot of time or chances to do it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not so fast.

Tolerating a situation in light of constraints does not make one LD. It simply indicates one makes a value judgement about life's priorities. 

Some people value sex more than some other things. Others don't. It's simply a judgement of the importance of things and has nothing to do with innate desire, which is what LD is all about.

My neighborhood is full of women who may be LD to the highest extent for all I care yet they all seem to make the same value call - that putting out to keep a wealthy husband around is worth the price of admission to the 1%. So lack of desire be darned, if it means a new SUV, maid, lawn service, nanny, and a mansion.

Desire is something you do or you don't have. You generally don't control it. Priorities, on the other hand, you do.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

How often are you ok with?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> How often are you ok with?



At what opportunity cost?

Let's say I decide to get some on the side by hitting on an intern. Bad idea. Think of what I would risk. Once again it's not a matter of desire 

To answer the question we did well - average - for 25 years. Last few of the good years a couple times a week, a bit more earlier. But good 2 hour productions, not 10 minute quckies. When the troubles started about 6 years ago frequency declined pretty slowly. 

But sex is sex. And the rest of the story is what counts. A true LD would simply accept defeat and live with what they have. I like to think of myself as a bit more spunky than that. Hence, Tora! Tora! Tora! in a couple years.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Funny you won't answer the question.

Also you won't answer if you are getting some on the side.

I get it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I did answer. You just aren't reading 

I'm a very busy 55 year old. I am working 60 hours a week to save the whales. I would be happy once a year with the right person and unhappy with once a day with the wrong person. As we say in Paducah, it's all relative. (Or we're all related? Not sure)

And unfortunately I'm too busy shopping for a cat to get it on the side. For now


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok...I'm reading. It sounds pretty LD to me, john. But you can call it what you want. And I do get your point, desire can be there whether or not you have sex in your life, it exists separate from the act. But you still ping as LD to me. Anyway you call it Normal D, I get that it is normal for you...also I'm not saying people should be way high or anything, I was just making a point about how the perception some people put off as being the victim HD in a sexless relationship is sometimes a smoke screen.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I was just making a point about how the perception some people put off as being the victim HD in a sexless relationship is sometimes a smoke screen.



Might be true for some... it's not for me. I'm with John in this... there are other priorities right now. I'd like a wonderful sex life, but to have that, I will have to divorce and spend my kids' university funds on renting a house. Do you think it would be fair on them? If that means being LD, then I am...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The methodology for assessing desire is wrong here FW. Take a hypothetical person and put them in the proverbial hotel suite with the 71 virgins, and nothing else going on in their lives. Then assess.

Based on outcome alone most people in low sex marriages or people my age or single people etc will register as DD or dead desire  but the whole point in measuring desire is to do so with a baseline common to everyone.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> I can't see how anyone could credibly claim to be sexually HD If they tolerate a sexless sexual relationship. If one's drive really is high, they'll be driven to get sex.


You know, we are not animals... we are human beings and we have a brain and the ability to control urges... this is total BS...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> Although humans can often control their urges, we are without doubt animals.
> 
> If one chooses to control their urges to the point that they accept a sexless sexual relationship for years and or decades it is highly likely they are not HD.


firstly, we are not animals... secondly, have you ever thought of putting the welfare of your kids ahead of your animalistic instincts? I am HD, but I'd rather go without sex than compromise my kids' future...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> Choosing an LD sexual lifestyle is evidence that one Is sexually LD.


Just because one _chooses_ an LD sexual lifestyle, it doesn't automatically means they are LD... it's a _choice_... but you are entitled to your opinions, of course... and to be an animal...


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Personal said:


> You do know that humans are part of a large group of animals called mammals?
> 
> if one by choice chooses a path or relationship that ensures they seldom get sex or don't get it at all. It is not unreasonable to conclude as evidenced by their actions that they are not sexually HD.
> 
> If I chose not to have sex very often it would be disingenuous of me to claim to be sexually HD.



I think the whole labeling thing is misleading to how people feel.

There should be two kinds of HD- one for the physically horny & one for the strong longing for emotional closeness.

An HD longing for the second one stays in a nearly sexless relationship with the hope that things will change and they will get fulfillment someday and is why they stay. Even though it's noble to stay for kids, it really just hurts them more because they can see you and your spouse aren't acting "married".

If you are the first one and are constantly sexually frustrated, horny etc., then I agree you aren't really HD or just choosing to be a martyr.

As far as being animals, you would have to show me another animal that gets their feelings hurt by rejection from intimacy, for me to buy it. They run solely on instincts. No hurt feelings, resentment, they both just "do it", because they're programmed to. If we were indeed animals, divorce wouldn't exist.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Remember how pet food companies evaluate a new pet food.

First they feed the cats or dogs well with their usual food. 

Then they offer the new food. If a well fed pet goes for the new food this means the new food is worth it 

Also go back to the simple math problem. Let's say divorcing your high earning spouse costs you $150k a year. And for that you get 100x sex a year (twice a week). That's $1500 per session. Don't know where you live but in the Midwest you can get some pretty good service  for that. And of course that's not guaranteed either depending on your age. 

The corollary is also true. An otherwise LD SAH wife can't earn the kind of money most executive high earning men provide for in my neighborhood so it's sex or the real world. Guess which option wins out most of the time?

Economics or psych college majors will immediately recognize the above - for the rest, read Freakonomics. Now why didn't I use this example with my students...

But the bottom line is that desire is not quantifiable by situation. If you work for the merchant marine you generally make excellent money but don't have access to frequent sex either. That doesn't make you LD either.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I also think the easy availability of porn causes many people to think they're higher drive than they really are. And the intense stimulation rewires the brain to require more and more stimulation to get the ultimate reward, much like drugs.

Many self proclaimed hd's will claim to go to porn out of frustration, but personally I think it's often the porn itself that causes drive. I know for me I can have great sex with hb and not think about sex for a bit, but if I look at porn I'll think about it a lot sooner. But it's not real drive, it's porn induced. 

Try an experiment where you get the porn and naked pics out of your life for a set period of time and see how hd you really are. Also note how your response varies in the absence of the stimulation of porn.

It's also known that porn interferes with emotional intimacy and bonding hormones are released to the porn and not your partner.

I'm sure there are people who even in the absence of porn will want a lot of sex, I just think that number isn't as high as is widely believed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I think what is so largely missing about HD vs LD arguments is that if a person is HD and "chooses" to have sex often (ie with another person) well then that depends entirely on having an appropriate partner that suits that agenda. However there are many reasons why an HD may not have that option, personal values, choosing a partner for more than just access to their sex, circumstances out of their control, and many many other things that we don't really have a right to judge or criticize, nor does well-meaning advice an HD that has lots of sex always apply. The term live and let live is something that I find many people, particularly HD ones really embrace.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually, it kind of does.
> 
> 
> Plus if I am not mistaken, you said you were LD yourself to me once in a similar discussion. If I have that wrong (or if you didn't mean it the way I think you did) then let me know. But I'm guessing you are ok with monthly or less sex, and that does kinda equal LD.


I guess that officially makes me a member of TEAM LD. I'm probably still going to hold on to my old HD membership card, just in case I flip back again

As I've stated in other threads, my drive/desire is driven solely by my emotional state and nothing physical. If my wife and I are having a "close" period of time, then I'm as horned up as anyone on here and have no problems performing to an optimum level, on the other hand, when we are just "hanging out" with each other, mainly doing our own things, then the idea of sex is non existent in my mind. I'm not really sure where I fall drive wise anymore, but probably LD.
I can go months, but I doubt I could go years? That would be my breaking point & my exit.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Might be true for some... it's not for me. I'm with John in this... there are other priorities right now. I'd like a wonderful sex life, but to have that, I will have to divorce and spend my kids' university funds on renting a house. Do you think it would be fair on them? If that means being LD, then I am...


College is highly overrated. If I were in your position and it were a matter of whether they had a place to live and food, clothing, and other necessities of life, I would suck it up, but for college? Nope.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I guess that officially makes me a member of TEAM LD. I'm probably still going to hold on to my old HD membership card, just in case I flip back again
> 
> As I've stated in other threads, my drive/desire is driven solely by my emotional state and nothing physical. If my wife and I are having a "close" period of time, then I'm as horned up as anyone on here and have no problems performing to an optimum level, on the other hand, when we are just "hanging out" with each other, mainly doing our own things, then the idea of sex is non existent in my mind. I'm not really sure where I fall drive wise anymore, but probably LD.
> I can go months, but I doubt I could go years? That would be my breaking point & my exit.


Perhaps you are a demisexual.

What is Demisexuality? | Demisexuality Resource Center


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Many self proclaimed hd's will claim to go to porn out of frustration, but personally I think it's often the porn itself that causes drive. I know for me I can have great sex with hb and not think about sex for a bit, but if I look at porn I'll think about it a lot sooner. But it's not real drive, it's porn induced.


There are those who claim the exact opposite. That a real life wife can't live up to the fantasy of porn. That porn _substitutes _for sex.

I won't argue either way since it doesn't do either of those for me. 


> Try an experiment where you get the porn and naked pics out of your life for a set period of time and see how hd you really are.


I've done that in essence. I used porn and mb as a vastly inferior substitute. Since my wife's drive came back, I don't do either. My insane drive is intact as ever.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Perhaps you are a demisexual.
> 
> What is Demisexuality? | Demisexuality Resource Center


That was interesting, but I don't think it fits me completely. I wouldn't put myself anywhere near asexual. But I've never been able to have sex, just to have sex, the feelings had to be there.
I've had 3 partners and married two of them. I thought that was supposed to be a good thing, but I wonder now??

My low drive now is from really unfulfilling sex for too many years. Like, if you are craving a steak dinner, but repeatedly get cheese & crackers, eating at all, loses all excitement.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> There are those who claim the exact opposite. *That a real life wife can't live up to the fantasy of porn. That porn substitutes for sex*.
> 
> I won't argue either way since it doesn't do either of those for me.
> 
> ...


Well you may be one of those people that would have a high drive with or without porn. I said they do exist.

And the bolded comments support by comment about the stimulation causing the user to require more and more for the ultimate reward. It causes a high drive but it also ups what is necessary to reach orgasm such that it's becomes difficult for a living, breathing person to fulfill it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

technovelist said:


> College is highly overrated. If I were in your position and it were a matter of whether they had a place to live and food, clothing, and other necessities of life, I would suck it up, but for college? Nope.



Not for me  I already have three college degrees. For my kids.

If I have to worry about food, clothing, and the like sex will likely be very low on the list...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

technovelist said:


> College is highly overrated. If I were in your position and it were a matter of whether they had a place to live and food, clothing, and other necessities of life, I would suck it up, but for college? Nope.


It's important to me... important enough to suck it up...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's important for me also because I would have to do real work if I didn't have such a college education


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Might be true for some... it's not for me. I'm with John in this... there are other priorities right now. I'd like a wonderful sex life, but to have that, I will have to divorce and spend my kids' university funds on renting a house. Do you think it would be fair on them? If that means being LD, then I am...


Exactly - I'm not going to have my savings depleted or my business fail just because I have a sex drive and want to get some because DW has no desire for sex. I'm not going to put my kids through that. Masturbation is never as good as the real thing, but in the absence of getting the real thing from DW, it's what has to be done. 

As for her drive, I'm not going to pester her for sex. It's obvious she has no sex drive at all (she's pretty much come out and said that), and having sex with someone that doesn't want to be there is less satisfying than just using my hand. I'm just going to accept the fact that she doesn't want/like sex and take care of myself when the urge hits - not happy about it, but my kids trump that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> And the intense stimulation rewires the brain to require more and more stimulation to get the ultimate reward, much like drugs.


Slight digression, but I've tried to follow the metaphorical rainbow to the pot of gold on this. 

I've been consistently frustrated by the mixture of fundamentalist Christian zealotry and/or junk science the closer I've gotten to the source.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Personal said:


> You do know that humans are part of a large group of animals called mammals?
> 
> if one by choice chooses a path or relationship that ensures they seldom get sex or don't get it at all. It is not unreasonable to conclude as evidenced by their actions that they are not sexually HD.
> 
> If I chose not to have sex very often it would be disingenuous of me to claim to be sexually HD.


Scientifically, yes, we are animals. Don't think you can argue against that. 

As for the LD part, I disagree. Just because one chooses to stay in a low sex marriage, does not make them LD. I'm HD and would love sex daily, but I stay with my husband who is much more happy to have sex once a week or less. It doesn't make me LD. I still have the strong raw desire for sex with my husband, but it just doesn't happen because he is not up for it. I choose to stay because I do love/care about my husband and don't want our son to grow up in a split home. I've seen so many friends and others struggle growing up with divorced parents, so I don't want my son to have that. I'd rather stay and try to work on things. Maybe things will change, maybe they won't, but for now I don't want to leave.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm an LD poster. I don't post frequently, and I rarely if ever post in a thread that is heated. I'm just not strong enough emotionally for that kind of judgement and confrontation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Giro flee said:


> I'm an LD poster. I don't post frequently, and I rarely if ever post in a thread that is heated. I'm just not strong enough emotionally for that kind of judgement and confrontation.



Most of us PLD's (not programmable logic devices, but partners of LD's) don't see other LD's as anything to get upset about. It's a struggle within the couple, not one that spills over.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Most of us PLD's (not programmable logic devices, but partners of LD's) don't see other LD's as anything to get upset about. It's a struggle within the couple, not one that spills over.


Some will take out their anger on people here, especially if they feel they cannot do it to their own partner.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Luckily for me I have no such constraints :rofl:

Seriously tho, arguing with an LD would be fairly counterproductive. You can't get much information from them without personal contact (ew!) because the kind of information you want is nuances, body language, and the like, not a sorted list of why they dislike sex. Heck, chances are half the time they don't know themselves. 

So, fear not, LD hobbits! The eye of Sauron will protect you


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Luckily for me I have no such constraints :rofl:
> 
> Seriously tho, arguing with an LD would be fairly counterproductive. You can't get much information from them without personal contact (ew!) because the kind of information you want is nuances, body language, and the like, not a sorted list of why they dislike sex. Heck, chances are half the time they don't know themselves.
> 
> So, fear not, LD hobbits! The eye of Sauron will protect you


It is seriously exactly these kind of posts that scare me off. Back into my hole........


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Giro flee said:


> It is seriously exactly these kind of posts that scare me off. Back into my hole........


I do not intend to "scare" people off. I consider myself a skilled interviewer since it's a key part of what i do for a living. I simply state that I feel that a lot of so called LD's can't explain their LD-ness enough in an online setting to provide much useful information to non LD's. They may explain their feelings from a high level but not at a height that provides lots of details - not unless they're willing to engage in very lengthy conversations and give out information that usually comes our only in more intimate settings, if at all. 

In other words, it's too "personal" of a subject at a level that is not really conducive to online discussion.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Giro flee said:


> I'm an LD poster. I don't post frequently, and I rarely if ever post in a thread that is heated. I'm just not strong enough emotionally for that kind of judgement and confrontation.


I'm with you on that! I've started my own LD thread and deleted it about 10 times in the last week since I started following this thread. I keep thinking to myself...nope not ready for the fire storm...hit delete. I have to say for all the reading I do here on the HD perspective I still don't fully get it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not sure I would paint all non LD's with the same HD brush.... That in itself is highly divisive and eventually counterproductive. 

One of my wife's most common views, for example, is that anything other than what she has in mind as the ideal level of intimacy is immediately once a day. Nothing in between. No attempt whatsoever to even communicate this morsel of predictable information... It just is. I'm not sure I can generalize but still...

Eventually non LD's "live with it" as much as LD's "live with" "he wants it every day". 

It's really two sides of the same coin.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Giro flee said:


> It is seriously exactly these kind of posts that scare me off. Back into my hole........


It's been several years, but my first post here was mostly met with ridicule, scorn and name-calling. I was told to 'man-up' to 'grow a pair' and some considered me a troll. There was even a time when I cyber-stalked by a member. 

It didn't really deter me. There were a few who listened. There were a few whom I had lengthy discussions with via PM's, and those few made all the difference. 

My libido hasn't shot up because of it and I'm no closer to understanding some peoples criteria or their behavior, but I am now far more patient and willing to attempt to understand another person's perspective _and_ I understand tons more about who I am and how I developed the perspectives that I have about physical relations - and that alone - was worth enduring all the slings and arrows.

It's gotten better here since. Baby steps.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Might be true for some... it's not for me. I'm with John in this... there are other priorities right now. I'd like a wonderful sex life, but to have that, I will have to divorce and spend my kids' university funds on renting a house. Do you think it would be fair on them? If that means being LD, then I am...





Not true for me either. 



I never had much confidence when it came to dating (20+ years ago). My wife has been my sole sexual partner (ignoring one drunken and partial experience...). My wife has made pretty clear I am not attractive to her. I am sure that is true.





On the other hand, my self-esteem in general is pretty good, and as I get older, I tend to worry less and less about being alone (I am alone. Just married.)



Admittedly, I am not confident I would have the capacity to feel good about myself physically and, and who knows, maybe my current physique would be a turn off for many. But I dont think I am so far gone as to not be able to attract someone desirable. In any case, I am working on it -- not for anyone but myself. If anything, the potential for a real relationship would motivate me, and I'd get there sooner.



Fears and insecurities about not doing better sexually post-divorce are not what keeps me in my marriage. I don't think they are a factor at all.





Heavy on my mind is that my oldest daughter cried and cried the other night asking if her mom and are getting a divorce, asking if I wanted a divorce, asking if I'd ever cheat on her mom (wtf?). Wondering if I am not around when my youngest lives with my wife, will my wife's anger spill onto her and my daughter adopt poor coping habits (like has already happened); perhaps it is best if I suck it up and live there so that I can more often intervene and reduce inappropriate impact?



II'd agree there can be lots of smokescreens. Just like there can be lots of other concerns.



FW, I don't understand the motivation or basis for your assertion that particular people here are secretly insecure or cheating.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sky said: "FW, I don't understand the motivation or basis for your assertion that particular people here are secretly insecure or cheating."

The cheating thing was directed at john and only because he didn't answer a direct question about it...and then he did answer it so that cleared that up.

The insecure thing is because I've read several first hand accounts by LD men who claimed being insecure was one of the top reasons they would not initiate. They may have wanted sex, but their insecurities would shut it down and then they couldn't perform, so they learned to stop initiating all together. Anon Pink's husband wrote a description that included some of these elements, and I've read several others.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

John hasn't cheated yet largely because he's way too busy with 1000 other things to launch a decent dating campaign. Not because of any moral qualms, of which he has none.

He's got but a single practical objection to cheating - if he cheats he really can't claim it's not about sex.


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