# Seeking Advice



## AMU

I’ve spent hours pouring through this site over the past week and have learned a lot about me and my situation. I thank my husband for “slipping up” and letting me know about this site and each of you for your posts, words of advice, admonition, etc. I am coming to you for advice, and I do so knowing that your words will likely be hard for me to hear. But I have done terrible wrongs and want to try to figure out how and if I can save my marriage. I’ve been trying to follow the actions I’ve read about here, but there is much hurt and anger and seems my BH feels “a little bit too late.” My story will be familiar to many, as you have been waiting to hear what happened after my husband posted on Monday. Background – I fell for my husband and his beautiful blue eyes my freshman year in college. I asked about him, but friends always said we wouldn’t get along. I was the goody-two-shoes, bows in my hair girl (ironic when you hear this story) and he was the good looking, growing his hair long, drinking/smoking all the time, incredibly intelligent world ranked skier. Flash forward to our 10th year college reunion – we were much more similar - had both attended law school and shared many interests. He was talking to a friend so I joined the conversation - we spent most of the three day weekend together and were engaged within 6 months. We’ve now been married almost 12 years and have four beautiful little girls. Things have not been easy and the last several years have been a real struggle. We have simply not been good to each other. We both admit this, but it did not justify my behavior. 

I travel for work occasionally and I was in Florida for a sales kick off. After a night of casino games and playing pool with a number of colleagues, four of us decided to call it a night and head back to our rooms. It was a resort with various buildings and I was staying in the same complex as one of the guys. As we were heading into our rooms, he asked whether I wanted to talk out by the beach since it was such a nice night. I said sure and headed through my room and out the back door to the beach (he went through his own room), but as I walked out back I began to worry a little that he might assume the wrong idea, so when we went out to the Adirondack chairs right behind the rooms, I intentionally left an open chair between us. I had also learned earlier that evening that his divorce was almost finalized after his wife of 25 years had an affair and left, knew he was hurt by that so I felt he wouldn’t be stupid enough to make a move. Found the chairs were covered with rainwater, so he went back to his room to grab a towel for each of our chairs. We sat out there and talked for about 45 min and then went back to our respective rooms. Despite much speculation on this board, there was absolutely nothing physical – I was several feet from him the entire time. We went back to our rooms, got on our computers to do some work and he called my room to tell me my peer had already followed up on something she had promised earlier tonight. I was on Facebook and asked if he had a page – he said yes and I friended him them. Bad move on my part – I had enjoyed talking to him and over the next several days found myself chatting with him through the Facebook instant chat page. I traveled again the next week for work and after trading messages a few times that day about what he’s done over the weekend, I asked him whether I could call him that night. He said yes and I called. That started a series of phone calls, Facebook messages and texts – we were “talking” in some form virtually every day about all sorts of topics – work (we had both worked for the same 50,000 employee company for 10+ years, but live in different states and had never known each other previously), general happenings, his dating life, what had happened in his marriage. The first night we talked he went into some details about a woman he had dated and was trying to win back and shared explicit details about their sex life. We moved to talking about sex in general and likes/dislikes. I know, extremely inappropriate conversation, but I got caught up in it, listened, shared. I asked him what he would do if we ever met in person – would he try to make a move on me? Over the next weeks, we talked about lots of general life topics and I offered advice on his dating relationships. But we also continued bantering back and forth about sexual topics and sexual overtures. One day he said he had been having naughty thoughts about me and told me in detail what he had pictured doing. We talked about whether we would ever see each other again and when/where that might be. He knew I was traveling and we talked about whether his work travels might take him to the same place – I went as far as to tell him I had a free ticket I could send him. Did I mean it? No. Did I follow through? No, but I threw the idea out there. I asked him what he wore to bed and we talked about the color of his underwear and what kind I wore. And the crowning blow – I texted him what if I would do if I were ever to see him again, a romance novel like play by play. I was reckless in my discussions. I justified it in my mind as it was all “talk” and no action, that he was 1500 miles away, that is was somehow “safe.” Stupid, I know. Reckless – absolutely. 

My BH learned that I was in touch with my AP at the end of March and confronted me about. I lied – I diminished the conversations and said he was a good friend – told him we talked about his dating life, but I certainly did not share the sexual discussions with BH. We started seeing a counselor and the counselor said it was OK for me to have a friend I felt safe to talk to, but again, that counselor didn’t know the extent. So I continued talking to my AP, although significantly less than during the month of March. One night late April, we were together with two other families and while I was off to the side of the room trying to get our 2 year old to sleep, my husband went on and on to all four of our friends (and within my hearing) about all the reasons our marriage was in trouble – in great detail about how I was failing him in so many ways, and talking to this guy was one of them. It was a terrible and heart-wrenching night for me, but I said “Fine – I won’t talk to him anymore.” And the next day I called AP and said we couldn’t have any more communication. The next week, I unfriended him on Facebook. But I missed it – the attention, the conversations. About a week after I said no more contact, I called him and we talked. We ended up IM’ing and texting some more that month, but my BH and I were trying to spend more time together and things were looking up. I recognized how much I loved my husband and how I didn’t want to mess things up – I wanted us to work. 

The first week of June, I went to Vail for work. Knowing that leaving town would be difficult for my BH, I checked in often. We talked by phone on my way back to Denver he asked me if I needed to have any contact with AP for work and I said no. He asked whether I would send him a note asking for no contact that he could see. I hadn’t heard of a “no contact” letter at that point (he had been doing a lot of reading about EAs and had repeatedly told me I was having one, but I wasn’t willing to admit it – the word affair was a terrifying one for me, even though I was in the throes of one). I stopped the rental car and sent a text – it was June 7th. I told my AP that I didn’t want to have any more contact with him and that if he needed to discuss something about work to contact one of my team members or my peer – that I owed it to my husband and our relationship. I have had absolutely no contact since that date. And I have no desire to – can’t believe what I was thinking when it was happening. But I also hadn’t been completely honest with my BH. I admitted to talking to my AP a lot, I admitted to offering lots of relationship advice, but I was terrified to admit the sexual discussions. Because my BH has read so much about EAs, we’d started to talk about some details along the way and each time he said he wanted to know more, I owed it to him to share it all, but that he couldn’t hear any more. And I didn’t push it – I wanted it to all go away – wanted it to disappear as if it never happened.

Fast forward to this week. I had been reading this site and decided to go with transparency. I’ve been terrified to tell the truth, but everything here said that was the one and only way – lay it all out there and hope and pray that the marriage can survive. I brought it up on Monday night and he said he didn’t want to talk about it then. I pushed (maybe I shouldn’t have) and shared a lot of details but not all. He was horrified – I asked if I could come stay with him (he has been staying at our house for the last few weeks which is undergoing a major renovation and I’ve been staying at our temporary housing a mile away with our baby) – he said yes, but when I got there asked me to leave. I told him I would give him every bit of information I could provide – I gave him all the phone records, requested return of a company phone that I had used for all the texts so he can retrieve and read the deleted texts (it had died and been returned but hasn’t been touched by anyone and is in the mail back to us now). Tuesday night we sat down and talked again and I shared more, including the sexting episode. After I returned to our temporary housing, I tried to remember additional things I hadn’t shared (the sexting is what I am the very most ashamed of) and Wed night shared a couple more items I recalled. Yesterday BH called my boss to see how to find out an employee’s travel plans. Today I gave him the name and phone number of AP’s boss in Florida and he called her to verify that AP was not out of town on any of the days I traveled (he still doesn’t believe we haven’t met somewhere and there wasn’t anything physical). I have asked folks in my IT group about retrieving IMs and have been told that my Company does not archive them past 30 days for legal reasons. I’ve asked BH to take my current phone and run whatever programs he wants on it to verify that I have truthfully been no contact since June 7th.

So I’ve put it all out there. I have admitted my EA and the details to my BH and now to all of you. And although I don’t expect or deserve kindness, especially with so many out here who have been betrayed as well, I am asking for help – I want to save my marriage and right now it seems that may not be possible. BH told me tonight that he fell in love with me because of who he thought I was, that he married me because I was pure. And I had been – I am certainly not perfect, but I had always been absolutely loyal in every way until now. And I messed up badly, terribly and have the greatest regret. My marriage is at stake, the happiness of my children are at stake. All because I was stupid enough to get caught up in this. DH says “YOU DID THIS!” and he is right. I did and if I could take it all back, I would. Tonight BH called me a **** and a harlot, said that I was cheap, used goods, a dime a dozen. Said he feels great revulsion. I know I’ve shattered his dreams and I so want a chance to win back that trust. I love my husband with all my heart - this was the stupidest thing I’ve ever done in my life and I am so, so sorry. I have talked to three different counselors this week in hopes of finding a MC (first one was awful for us), but BH isn’t sure he will go (I will go to an IC if not). He has asked to separate. Please help – what happens now? For those of you working on reconciliation, how were you able to give your spouse another chance? Any advice appreciated. 

-Mrs. Harken Banks


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## I'm The Prize

Ok, I'm sorry but I'm skeptical about this post. First, one of the things that troubles me is that you make it sound like it was only an EA with sexting involved. From Harken's post it was pretty clear that it was physical and that he had found out in a very traumatic way. He wouldn't reveal what that was and if my instincts are right I can't blame him. If you are doing a little fishing of your own don't bother. None of us will reveal anything you haven't seen in the thread. I just don't buy it. I'm getting really bad vibes from this.


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## AngryandUsed

Predicament.
I wonder why you sought attention. And why you sexted with AP.
Your husband's feelings are understandable and expected.
He is in a distrust mode and has started verifying.
The trouble you have created for him and your marriage and yourself is trickle truthing.
why did you break your own resolve to remain NC with AP, in March, April? That was bad.
I hope your husband will turn to anger. It will take long time to heal for your husbad.
Offer emotional support, be with him physically and emotionally as much as possible.


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## iheartlife

The best advice I have is to come clean, and tell EVERYTHING, because it isn't the sex that destroys marriages--as so many cheaters think. It's the lying.

When you continue to lie after being discovered, you are taking your husband's last ounce of trust in you and pissing on it. There are plenty of loyal spouses on this board who tried to reconcile with their WS but in the end the lies, no matter how small, continued and it killed what remaining love they had.

I am reconciled to my H who had a long term emotional affair. A real marriage is the two of you baring your SOULS to each other from now until you die. There are no more secrets, no more of any of the old stuff you might have done, such as criticizing your husband behind his back, hiding purchases, all the subtle things that people do to put up walls between them.

Truth is your friend, get to know her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

You told your husband,basically if you had to marry him over again you wouldn't. That makes it sound many, many times worse than your initial post would have him and us believe. 

There is also no doubt, from what you have revealed, that had your husband not caught on, you were headed straight into a PA as soon as you could arrange it, even offering to pay for the flight of the OM. As a matter of fact, it looks like you were the aggressor in the affair.

Don't get me wrong. You may be able to salvage this and save your family if its that important for you. But both of you have to figure out how to be a family and make family your first priority instead of last on the list as both of you are doing now. In essence the two of you are in a long distance relationship and you have been having "girls nights out". (drinking, casinos, playing pool etc. with other men, and going out on the beach at night alone). 

Writing that, I can't believe it either. Sorry


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## warlock07

Like other said, complete truth. No minimizing, no lying by omission. Whatever he has in his mind is much much worse than what you actually did.


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## Chaparral

See the link I posted on your husbands thread for the wayward spouse instructions. Anything other than all out will lead to disaster.

11th post down onthis page:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068


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## Will_Kane

The story is theoretically possible, but given the content of the texts, not believable that they didn't hook up for sex.

She knows her husband will be reading it, so if it's all lies to him, it will be the same lies here.

Polygraph on whether or not there has ever been physical sexual contact might help.


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## warlock07

And how would a guy that was cheated upon do such a thing? Have you ever has a moment to think about what you did ? You know, after a sexting session?


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## Chaparral

warlock07 said:


> And how would a guy that was cheated upon do such a thing? Have you ever has a moment to think about what you did ? You know, after a sexting session?


A lot of people do not realize its cheating if it doesn't turn physical.

If what messed up says is true,he may have been the one that kept it from going physical.

Another question I have is did she see what her actions were doing to the marriage? 

Were any I love yous exchanged?


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## warlock07

Also, don't try to minimize this part



> He knew I was traveling and we talked about whether his work travels might take him to the same place – I went as far as to tell him I had a free ticket I could send him. Did I mean it? No. Did I follow through? No, but I threw the idea out there. I asked him what he wore to bed and we talked about the color of his underwear and what kind I wore. And the crowning blow – I texted him what if I would do if I were ever to see him again, a romance novel like play by play. I was reckless in my discussions. I justified it in my mind as it was all “talk” and no action, that he was 1500 miles away, that is was somehow “safe.” Stupid, I know. Reckless – absolutely


A PA was a real possibility(It it hasn't already happened)

See, it was not recklessness



> She tells em she wrote him a Penthouse letter in which she describes meeting him in a hotel during travel, stripping him down, performing oral.


This should have taken some effort.


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## Seesaw

Personally, I would be surprised if something physical happened that first night. The question then is whether they hooked up after that because there is no doubt it would have turned physical.

Either way it is cheating, but Harken is clear that physical would be a deal breaker so that is important. With 1500 miles between them it was not made easy. Difficult to call. As others have said, absolute honesty is the only possible way to R.


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## Seesaw

To answer the question, how were you able to give your spouse another chance? In my case, it was absolute honesty, complete openness, no contact whatsoever, and a genuine understanding of the injury done that have meant we can even think about R.

This is going to be a rough ride for you and you will need to be strong. Do the vital reading recommended already by chapparal on this thread.


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## AMU

Will_Kane said:


> The story is theoretically possible, but given the content of the texts, not believable that they didn't hook up for sex.
> 
> She knows her husband will be reading it, so if it's all lies to him, it will be the same lies here.
> 
> Polygraph on whether or not there has ever been physical sexual contact might help.


I will absolutely take a polygraph if by BH asks me to - I did many things wrong, but I did not have any physical contact of any sort with AP.


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## AMU

chapparal said:


> A lot of people do not realize its cheating if it doesn't turn physical.
> 
> If what messed up says is true,he may have been the one that kept it from going physical.
> 
> Another question I have is did she see what her actions were doing to the marriage?
> 
> Were any I love yous exchanged?


Chapparal - in my mind it wasn't an affair because it was all words - I see that is wrong now. And no, I did not say I love you to AP - have never shared those words with anyone but my husband and family in the 13 years we've been together.


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## iheartlife

You might find the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass insightful, if you haven't read it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## t_hopper_2012

If you love your husband so deeply, why:

1) do you mock him so much (he says that you do it a lot - and you did it even when you knew you were causing him so much pain due to the affair)? 
2) did you even start the extremely sexual EA (or PA)? 
3) did you tell him that if you were deciding today, you would not marry him?


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## Shaggy

AllMessedUp said:


> I will absolutely take a polygraph if by BH asks me to - I did many things wrong, but I did not have any physical contact of any sort with AP.


How about being proactive and schedule it yourself, and take care of it?


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## Owyn

The story of how your EA started sounds very similar to how my wife started in her EA. The fact that you didn't realize what was happening at the very beginning of the affair is possible. You were seeking attention and found it. But there was a point where you realized what you were doing was wrong and that you should stop immediately... but you didn't stop. 

Not only did you not stop, but you escalated the affair. This is why it's so hard for your BS to come to terms with it. If you really love him as much as you say you do now, then why did this happen? Why did you not stop talking to the OM before (or when) the conversations become sexual. You knew it was wrong.

You have a lot of heavy lifting to do, and a lot of understanding too. You should read and follow all the steps that *chapparal* posted. It will help you understand and tell you how you can help. There's plenty of information to help you, Surviving Betrayal.

I've heard that *NOT 'Just Friends'* is a good book to read.

Taking the polygraph would help, do it if you can. But if your BS wants space, that's what you should give him. During this time, and from now on, you need to be open, honest and transparent. Tell him how you feel about what you did.


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## Shaggy

AllMessedUp said:


> Chapparal - in my mind it wasn't an affair because it was all words - I see that is wrong now. And no, I did not say I love you to AP - have never shared those words with anyone but my husband and family in the 13 years we've been together.


Really? You're an intelligent, educated person who thinks for a living. In fact as a lawyer you are trained to think about boundaries and managing those boundaries.

Yet, you didn't see this as an affair. I don't think you are being honest when you say that. For instance you though it possibly sending the wrong signal to be on a beach a night alone with another man and where worried about the wrong impression.

Yet you didn't question writing a penthouse fantasy of you doing the OM ?

Yet you didn't question offering to pay to have him travel to hook up with you?

You didn't see this as an affair? 

I don't believe you. I suspect you are saying you didn't see it as an affair, because that would be admitting that you chose wiling to take each of these steps. And that in your mind would be admitting that you did have an affair, and if HB didn't force the issue, you would still be having an affair that was escalating.


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## TBT

AllMessedUp said:


> I went as far as to tell him I had a free ticket I could send him. Did I mean it? No. Did I follow through? No, but I threw the idea out there.
> 
> 
> the word affair was a terrifying one for me, even though I was in the throes of one).


IMO,you're either in denial or lying here.My view is that the only logical reason you offered a ticket was to pursue a PA.Your intent was there and because of that I find it hard to believe that the idea of an affair was terrifying to you.I may be wrong,but I wonder exactly what the extent of your affair would be now,if you hadn't been found out.Now's the time for rigorous honesty,not just with your H but with yourself as well.Take care.


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## mahike

I really do not believe you are sharing all the facts of what happened. I think you are telling us what you think you have to. 

This is the reall problem with R's it is the fact you say you want to work things out but you went back to your old ways. and then you talk about want to go to an MC but you have already done that and you did not change a thing.

It took almost 10 months for my wife to really answer all my questions. As the truth came out in drop here and there it was like a torture having the wound re opened.

Get everything on the table right now and even the things you hope he does not know. Be honest, that is the only way you have any chance of fixing things.


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## costa200

First i want to say i'm not, to the best of my knowledge a betrayed spouse. This is important because what i'm about to say could be interpreted as some sort of paranoia from a hurt man. 

And what i want to say is this. I'm getting all sorts of negative vibes from your post that smack of a certain "whitening" process that you have going on here. You're minimizing a lot of stuff and i'm sensing that it's because you know your husband is on these boards too. 

Not trying to be gentle, when your AP sent you this:



> “He needs to find the dignity and smarts to figure this out for himself and stop projecting hate/blame/ [can’t remember what else] onto me.”


What is basically a total insult in every kind and shape to your husband and you went on with your communications, giving implicit agreement to these insults. Where exactly were all those feelings you now say you have?



> I love my husband with all my heart


Forgive me if i'm skeptic. And get this, if i, a guy who has no stake in this at all, isn't particularly traumatized by this issue, feels this way, imagine what is going on in your husband's head.

Words are just so damn easy!!!



> He knew I was traveling and we talked about whether his work travels might take him to the same place – I went as far as to tell him I had a free ticket I could send him. Did I mean it? No.


Horsesh*t alarm maximized. If your husband hadn't find out about this it would have happened. You know it and i know it, and unfortunately your husband knows it too. You saying that you don't mean it is just rubbing salt on the wound. It's the cheating script being played out. If you really had gone it would be something like "it was only this time and i didn't enjoy it".

And i noticed that in this thread itself you didn't reveal more than what your husband already knows. No details he hasn't found out about already. 


If you are REALLY decided to save your marriage then follow the advice of the BS in here to the letter. They will be able to let you know what your husband is feeling and how to deal with it in order to have that sight chance of a successful relationship.

Oh, and another thing, women and men can't be "just" close friends. I'm pretty sure you must be aware of it right now and i hope you manage to remember it in the future.

And for the love of whatever god you follow... Brush up on your communication skills. To joke in a message where you're assuring your husband that you didn't have sex with a guy:



> “Well, he handed me diet coke, so maybe our hands touched.”


can be a costly joke, if you value your marriage.

Plus swearing on your kids is a bad habit. If he gets one lie from you and you swore on them for it you can kiss your marriage goodbye, not talking about the fact of it making you a despicable mother. 

Go 100% clean and confess EVERYTHING or your marriage is dead.


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## AMU

chapparal said:


> You told your husband,basically if you had to marry him over again you wouldn't. That makes it sound many, many times worse than your initial post would have him and us believe.
> 
> Chapperal – you repeated a section from my husband’s post about whether I would marry him again. He asked me this on March 12th and I wanted to provide you with my background to what was said and why.
> 
> He asked me, “If you could do it all over again, would you marry me.” I asked him to explain what he meant – 12 years ago? Or was he asking about today, with all of the mess and heartache and lack of respect in our marriage. I said I didn’t want the marriage in the current state we were experiencing, one that was not about love and was only about staying together for the kids. He looked at me that afternoon and said “I didn’t know until right how I would answer that same question, but I know now, absolutely, that I would marry you again.” From that day forward, he worked and fought for our marriage. I think that was his wake up call. I will admit, at that point I didn’t know what I wanted - it took me longer and some very, very grave errors along the way to come around, to recognize just how much I love him, how much I cherish him and want to make this work.
> 
> My own D day occurred September 3rd of last year. I initiated intimacy with my husband that morning and despite seeming a little annoyed, he acquiesced. Afterward, he left to pick up some gas for the grill, as we were hosting five families the next day for our daughter’s 2nd birthday. He left the house and didn’t come back or communicate, despite several calls and messages throughout the day. He finally returned and stayed outside mowing the lawn – when he finally came inside, he admitted that he had been with an old girlfriend (in town from San Diego) all day long. An old girlfriend who he knows causes me great angst, as she is a stunningly beautiful model, dated him for over three years in high school and had reunited in 1999 right before we met. She has never married and made clear her continued interest in him. He explained that they had made arrangements to have a drink, but he was late because I had reached out for sex, so he felt he owed it to her to buy lunch. Lunch then turned into further drinks and walking all over the quaint downtown area for hours. When they parted, she propositioned fooling around and he declined (something he told me only later – failed to share that because he still wanted to see her again before she left town). While he was mowing, they were texting back and forth about whether to crash a high school reunion that evening. I learned about that when I looked at his phone and saw texts back and forth and confronted him – through the texts I also learned that they had also gotten together for drinks several days earlier and he had lied about why he was late to our daughter’s soccer game. I then checked his Facebook page and what I found there was astonishing – eight months of communication back in forth (he initiated contact). During those eight months, she repeatedly proclaimed her love for him, told him that she has loved him for 25 years, that no one else can measure up to him, that she kicks herself for not fighting for their relationship when he met me. He gushed to her about how beautiful she is (his words “you are off the charts, stunningly beautiful. Despite that curse, you manage to be exemplary in character and eminently good, considerate, and thoughtful. To a fault.” He explained to her several times that our marriage was a struggle and she responded “You know, you’d have a lot less stress if you moved to Utah. I’d move there too” and his response “I enjoyed the thought.” She told him about dreams she was having about him (he responded that it would be nice to talk, hear her voice) and talked about getting together for a meal or drinks. She said that if they did so, he would have to do so knowing that her love for him has never died. And then they bantered back and forth about whether to get together and ultimately decided to do so. So in late August/early Sept they connected. Even then, after he admitted she asked him to fool around, he wanted to see her again – told me with extreme passion in her voice “I care about her, I want to see her again, need to see her again.” He did meet her again for coffee and to his credit, after I asked that they not communicate, he told her they needed to stop communicating. As far as I know (I did check Facebook and his phone throughout the next months), he didn’t communicate with her again until he reached out via Facebook on March 1st to wish her a happy birthday a month and a day late and again several more times in March of this year
> 
> Except for things like the quotes above, he did not reciprocate her advances in the Facebook pages and I appreciate him for that. But he let it go on and on, responded to all her posts, made her feel good but didn’t step over the line (except for to allow it to keep going on and on in the first place). It was a wake up call for me. The man who had repeatedly told me over the past several years that he would go elsewhere for sex and intimacy since it was lacking in our relationship, would leave the house for hours at a time and not tell me where he had been even when I pushed, had been carrying on with a woman who loved him and had proclaimed her love for him - someone with whom he shared a very deep and passionate history. I realized we were both floundering and tried to reach out. I tried to arrange a get away for us and asked my dad/stepmom whether they could fly here to take care of the kids. But things were still tough - during the fall, he told me on multiple occasions that he didn’t love me, that we were only married for the kids. We talked about whether to move forward with the renovation and I said I only wanted to if we were really going to try. He said he would and agreed that we would need to move into a temporary space for our sanity and marriage. After committing to the renovation, he decided we couldn’t afford a temp space so we ended up living with his parents starting in January. I tried to make a “home” for us in his parents' house – set up one of the bedrooms for us, cleared a dresser for him, slept in an empty bed every night for two months – he chose to sleep in the basement with the dog instead of the bed with me, despite me asking him to be with me. He has on this site and in our marriage repeatedly criticized my use of our bed as an office (I telecommute, do not have an office, but can work from a desk or couch instead of the bed), so I made sure the bed was always clear and available for him – he never joined me (until he learned about AP at the end of March). Once the renovation started, I came up to the mountain every weekend except one, initiated sex, tried. In the weeks prior to the “would you marry me again” question, he told me again he didn’t love me and wanted a divorce (drunken words, but words nonetheless).
> 
> So yes, Chapparel, when he questioned me on March 12th, that was context of why I answered in the way I did. I had also known/been in touch with my AP for 12 days, which further clouded my judgment and perspective. I do not share any of this information as an excuse for my affair. There is no excuse or justification for an affair at any time. But it is where my mind was when I answered the question. From there I made deplorable decisions, acted recklessly and without regard to what my actions might do to my husband, our marriage and our family. I did that. I own that. I understand and appreciate the skepiticism of so many posters, but I still love my husband dearly, want to work on this marriage and appreciate all the comments, links, books and words. Some harder to hear than others, but I appreciate the feedback from all.


----------



## Harken Banks

I'll respond on my thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-18.html#post925195


----------



## costa200

It seems you both need to work on acceptable barriers in your relationship if you are going to R.

Every time a member of the opposite sex comes at you he/she can't be getting the idea that you're open to it. This will, if it hasn't already, wreck your marriage.


----------



## Jellybeans

I haven't read either of your posts in their entirety (too long) but here's the deal, AllMessed: if you truly want your marriage to your husband, you better own up to every single thing that happened. Cause if you don't and he finds out you lied again, it's game over and you have yourself to thank for that. If he even offers you another chance of reconciliation. Because a lot of people wouldn't after infidelity.


----------



## AMU

Jellybeans said:


> I haven't read either of your posts in their entirety (too long) but here's the deal, AllMessed: if you truly want your marriage to your husband, you better own up to every single thing that happened. Cause if you don't and he finds out you lied again, it's game over and you have yourself to thank for that. If he even offers you another chance of reconciliation. Because a lot of people wouldn't after infidelity.


Jellybeans - I appreciate your candor, as I have read your posts and know you share a similar experience although significantly less communication (edit - sorry, when I responded I mistook you for sayjellybeans). And I have and am putting it all out there. The phone with all the deleted texts is in route via UPS right now and if he isn't able to recall the deleted texts, I will put my job on the line and see if I can request them from the phone company I work for (it was a work phone). I gave him all the phone records showing the time, date and length of our phone conversations. I gave him the name and contact for AP's boss to verify where AP was every day I was traveling. He has all my passwords to all my accounts (has for months) and has my permission to run any programs/searches on my computer and current phone as well. I am happy to undergo a polygraph if he wants us to spend the money to do so. After so many wrongs, I'm trying to give this my best.


----------



## AMU

costa200 said:


> And i noticed that in this thread itself you didn't reveal more than what your husband already knows. No details he hasn't found out about already.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your post. I did want to note that I am sharing here what I have shared with BH - he "found out" all these details because I told him And I have requested the actual texts so he can verify the truth of what I have told him for himself (understandably he does not believe me). The phone is on the way back - I deleted texts, but we've been told they can be recovered - he will be the one to open the box and find/read them when it arrives.


----------



## costa200

AllMessedUp said:


> costa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And i noticed that in this thread itself you didn't reveal more than what your husband already knows. No details he hasn't found out about already.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your post. I did want to note that I am sharing here what I have shared with BH - he "found out" all these details because I told him And I have requested the actual texts so he can verify the truth of what I have told him for himself (understandably he does not believe me). The phone is on the way back - I deleted texts, but we've been told they can be recovered - he will be the one to open the box and find/read them when it arrives.
> 
> 
> 
> That's fine. But please be aware that he will be very hurt by all this and those messages can or not, be helpful. Your marriage now has fundamental issues of trust. You need to volunteer everything. Even if you think it isn't important. If he asks you to stop detailing you comply.
> 
> There is a big mountain to climb and it takes two. If your marriage does make it, BOTH of you need to redefine the borders so to speak. He can't be having lunches with an old GF that throws himself at him (even if he did refuse her sexual offerings, and that makes him better than most guys out there) and you need to keep your male friends fully aware that you're not available.
> 
> It's rare for a cheating spouse to start cheating planning it from the start. It happens because people lower their shields and show receptivity to it. Remember that others don't feel the need to respect your marriage at all.
Click to expand...


----------



## I'm The Prize

If you are telling the truth, ALL of it, then I wish both of you the best no matter what Harken decides to do. He after all is the one who will have to live with someone who betrayed him and lied to him. You have no idea how hard that is no matter how much you love that person or how determined you are to R. If you have told him everything, do not think that just because you prove it that things will be fine again in a few months or even years. Each person is different but I've yet to come across anyone who doesn't still have trust issues, triggers, and other issues even years later. I'm a year and a half past D-Day and still have days that it feels as fresh as the day I found out. You don't have a right to expect him to "get over it" at any point. You just need to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. There is no quick fix.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

^ Exactly right.

My only real advice is to take the time to think before you say things. If what Harken says is accurate, you appear to have been dimissive of his very real pain, or have tried to make jokes about certain aspects of things.

Don't do that.

He is going to be HYPER sensitive to pretty much anything you do or say now. He's deserving of some consideration, at the very least, so please keep that in mind as you live with this for the days, months, and years to come.


----------



## happyman64

warlock07 said:


> And how would a guy that was cheated upon do such a thing? Have you ever has a moment to think about what you did ? You know, after a sexting session?


Warlock,

We have seen on TAM a few BS's become WS's in their new relationships.

Many of us on here find it hard to believe that a BS could do this but it sadly has happened.


----------



## happyman64

AllMessedUp said:


> I will absolutely take a polygraph if by BH asks me to - I did many things wrong, but I did not have any physical contact of any sort with AP.


Do not wait for him to ask. Be pro-active.

I mentioned about taking you for a polygraph in his thread before I saw your post.

Again, be proactive. His imagination is now running wild and I am sure his emotions are all over the place.

If you love him and want your marriage then fight for it. And that means action AllMessedUp, not words.


----------



## Ironhorse

AllMessedUp said:


> costa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did want to note that I am sharing here what I have shared with BH - he "found out" all these details because I told him And I have requested the actual texts so he can verify the truth of what I have told him for himself (understandably he does not believe me). The phone is on the way back - I deleted texts, but we've been told they can be recovered - he will be the one to open the box and find/read them when it arrives.
> 
> 
> 
> I am in the similar situation with my wife. Trickle truth hurts tremendously and prevents the BS from accepting what the WS is saying because he was lied to too many time. How would you advise him to parse the truth from fiction?
Click to expand...


----------



## Chaparral

happyman64 said:


> Do not wait for him to ask. Be pro-active.
> 
> I mentioned about taking you for a polygraph in his thread before I saw your post.
> 
> Again, be proactive. His imagination is now running wild and I am sure his emotions are all over the place.
> 
> If you love him and want your marriage then fight for it. And that means action AllMessedUp, not words.


Thanks for your posts. I'm not sure now that both of you do not need to take a poly. This thread is one where both sides need to be heard from. After all he can call it anything at all, but your husband went out on dates with another woman, sweet talked her and tried to keep it from you.

Also, evidently got drunk and said he wanted a divorce, that's just disgusting.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> Thanks for your posts. I'm not sure now that both of you do not need to take a poly. This thread is one where both sides need to be heard from. After all he can call it anything at all, but your husband went out on dates with another woman, sweet talked her and tried to keep it from you.
> 
> Also, evidently got drunk and said he wanted a divorce, that's just disgusting.


I'll reply on my thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-19.html#post926120


----------



## Beowulf

I'm replying here because I think my feelings are probably more useful for you rather than your husband.

Let me preface my comments by saying I am extremely pro reconciliation. I also need to offer that I am a BS but my wife and I R 20 years ago. I also need to tell you that I do not believe you when you say this affair did not go physical. I simply don't. There is no doubt that the intent was there, the opportunity was there and the desire was there. I believe you had sex with your AP. It may have not have been penetrative sex but I believe you had inappropriate physical contact.

If I were in his shoes I would most certainly demand a polygraph. Not only would the question of physical contact be asked but I would also ask whether at any point you knew it was an affair. I would also want to know what your expectations were when you offered to fly out your AP to meet you on your business trip.

I would demand asap that there be no further business trips. If that means you quit you job, then you quit your job. Furthermore if your AP has any work related contact with you I would demand you immediately resign your position.

I would demand a GPS locator be active at all times on your phone. I would want you to contact me when you leave work and when you arrive there in the morning. I would demand you check in whenever you weren't with me so that I could verify your location.

Those are just the starting point. I am not normally a "hard a$$" per se but I feel you have deceived your husband in the extreme. I don't think he feels safe in a relationship with you. What I wrote above are just some examples of how to make him feel safe going forward. Please also note that if your husband had deceived you about the contact with his ex gf I would be making similar suggestions for him to follow. However, while his contact with her was inappropriate he did not hide it from you. I can tell you from experience that the deception is the hardest part of overcoming an affair. You need to ask yourself "why should he trust me?" If you can't answer that question how can he.


----------



## AngryandUsed

Oh, why was Beowulf banned?


----------



## MattMatt

And you know your AP was cheated on because... he told you?


----------



## MattMatt

> I thank my husband for “slipping up”


That's a somewhat strange way to put it.

You need to be 100percent honest with your husband. And with us, if you want any chance of saving your marriage.

We can help, if you let us.


----------



## happyman64

AngryandUsed said:


> Oh, why was Beowulf banned?


I cannot believe Beowulf was banned. I hope he goes to visit Bandit. 

This is just crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

happyman64 said:


> I cannot believe Beowulf was banned. I hope he goes to visit Bandit.
> 
> This is just crazy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin and CSS as well.Is it a full moon?


----------



## costa200

Weird... Never saw Beowulf even having an exchange with other people. Someone must have hacked his account


----------



## jnj express

Many of you posters, here on this thread, are just taking it at face value the messed up is lying/ommitting, not giving us the whole truth---just out of curiosity---WHY

Why cuz harken got here 1st---so what he says is gospel----not a one of us really knows anymore than we are being told 

It could very well be messed up IS telling the truth, and that you are caught up in the spin from Harken

What needs to be given here is advice to help the both of them, cuz Harken is also not without fault here, so we have a level playing field---and now they both need to know how to proceed from this point on----you all know your subject---stop judging, and throwing out acrimonious comments, and give them both some help


----------



## Harken Banks

I'm not without fault. I did not come here to argue with my wife in public. Neither did she come here to argue with me. Context, please.


----------



## Harken Banks

JNJ, bear in mind that until 6 days ago I was blowing off every suggestion that there was anything sexual to my wife's affair. I have no secrets of my own.

Can you process what I have learned in the past 5 days? I cannot.

The "level playing field" and "spin from Harken" comments are offensive to me.  AllMessedUp is capable enough of picking out anything in my thread she takes issue with. Yes, given all that has happened, I'm a bit incensed. peace


----------



## jnj express

Hey Harken---I wouldn't take sides, even if I could---pain of infidelity, is like no other, and I know you are experiencing it

As to the level playing field comment---if you spent time one on one with another woman, and you had thoughts of, you, I am sure know what I mean, it may have been a one time only situation, but it was still you with a woman alone, if your wife percieves it to be cheating, and believe me, your wife is no saint here, but you did put yourself out there with a woman one on one, and it is inapropos

How do you reconcile a ONS, vs a LTA, they are both cheating---it is a level playing field as far as having deviated from the marital script----

You and your wife, are the only ones who will settle this---you either will or you won't stay with her----you might decide tomorrow, you might decide in 2013, or even in 2015---only you live in your shoes----all the posters here can do, is give you their advice, based on experience

You may not like what I said, but basically it is true for most people, that they usually spin things, the way, they want the listener, to respond----especially for attorneys---they are masters at that craft.


----------



## Harken Banks

jnj express said:


> but you did put yourself out there with a woman one on one, and it is inapropos
> 
> How do you reconcile a ONS, vs a LTA, they are both cheating---it is a level playing field as far as having deviated from the marital script----.


I don't know what you are talking about here and you do not either.


----------



## Harken Banks

I'm getting pissed off about this. It's such a f"ing red herring.


----------



## Harken Banks

If your suggestion is that I had any sexual contact or conversation or communication with anyone other than AllMessedUp, check with her. AllMessedUp, chime in to squelch this distraction.


----------



## lordmayhem

Let me get this straight, Harken had and Emotional Affair (EA) and AllMessedUP had a One Night Stand (ONS), is this correct?


----------



## Harken Banks

Crap. No and No.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks JNJ, for taking AllMestUps thread off the rails. And I was trying to stay out of this place. Sheesh.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-18.html#post925195

Old friend stuff. Not, let's work out our travel plans so we can meet a hotel and I can s*ck your c*ck stuff. This is ridiculous. Please stop with this deflection and distraction.


----------



## iheartlife

Harken, I sympathize with your situation, but looking up old GFs even for friendly companionship is the stuff that starts affairs. You can say it was innocent, but if I was your wife, PO'd doesn't begin to describe how I'd feel.

No one on CWI is going to say that justified her affair (and if they do, you have my permission to chew them out). But please be honest about your behavior, it was inappropriate whether sexual, or no.

My H's LTA wasn't sexual. I don't talk about it much because no one believes me, probably. I read tons of emails spanning years that I discovered when he thought they were deleted. Not one sexual word was mentioned.

But appropriate? Hardly. Broke my heart into a million pieces.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

iheartlife said:


> Harken, I sympathize with your situation, but looking up old GFs even for friendly companionship is the stuff that starts affairs. You can say it was innocent, but if I was your wife, PO'd doesn't begin to describe how I'd feel.
> [/i][/size]


Agree with all you wrote. No doubt it was wrong and dumb. I did not look her up. We are intertwined with family and friends. I'm an idiot, no doubt. I was sincerely concerned that she was OK and would move on. I will go back to "I'm not naive, just naive."


----------



## Harken Banks

This is way off track. I'd like to get out of here and let this be my wife's place. And take my comments sidebar. The old gf stuff is what it is. I think it is fairly described in my thread. I was an idiot not to understand how AllMessedUp felt. But we had many, several, and big issues. I did not see this as one of them.


----------



## AMU

Thank you for all the posts - I do want to emphasize that when I shared the information about H and his past GF, it was in the context of responding to a question expressing skepticism of my initial post and whether I truly cared about my husband in light of the way I answered his question "would you marry me again" back in early March. I think he will agree that we were in a very bad place at that time, and I don't think he recognized or appreciated the depth of how his words and actions had put me in a terrible place. But as I said when I posted, that is not and will never be an excuse for my emotional affair – one in which I reached out to another man, connected with him, shared discussions about sexual topics, sexted him.

And let me correct the misperceptions that seem to be going on. Harken Banks did not did not have a ONS or any physical contact with old GF. Yes, he reached out to connect with her and over the next 8 months shared 35 pages of Facebook communication. He doesn’t like the quotes I provided because he doesn’t feel they provide the correct context, but the discussions occurred – I agree he maintained boundaries. He admits that it stroked his ego to hear this beautiful woman proclaim her continued love for him. We have had discussions about old GF over the years and he is very well aware of how insecure and threatened I feel about this particular individual. Yes, he got together with her for a drink and lied about it, then got together with her again two days later with the express intention of not telling me about it again then (he admits this in his post). That day she propositions fooling around and he declines. One drink becomes six hours together and when he comes home, I confront him and he admits where he has been. I poke around and find their other communications. He sees her one more time and agrees to no more communication. He sees the entire thing as stupid judgment, simply an old friend thing that was insensitive to me. I see it differently. But it is not the reason we are here now.

We are here because of my infidelity – because I have taken actions fundamentally inconsistent with my marriage and my vows to my husband. I did stupid, stupid things and then lied about them. When confronted about the affair, I selectively disclosed, denied anything wrong. I was in contact with AP between Feb 29th-June 7th and it wasn’t until six days ago that I had the guts to share the details with my husband. I have been tortured by the information, but had honestly wanted and wished that it would somehow all go away – wished it weren’t real. And then my husband led me to this board - I read and read and read. I tried to finally take the right path, even though it terrified me. And my worst fears are being realized - the reason I was so scared to open up and share with him the depth of my indiscretions was my fear of losing him and that is a real possibility right now. My heart feels like it is being squeezed - I can hardly breathe, can't sleep, can’t eat, as I know our future is in his hands. He can't see straight right now with his horror, rage, disbelief of what I have done. His words to me this week, including today, have frequently been venomous. He defended me for weeks on this board, but now that he knows the extent of the affair, he feels like he doesn’t know me, doesn’t see how he can ever see past this. Every post I see about trying to work it out makes me burst into tears, because as much as I want that, that choice lies with him and he is undecided. That’s where we are and god does it hurt. And as awful as it is for me, I know he hurts more.


----------



## jnj express

OK---let me clarify, my statement about a ONS, vs LTA---If you read it, and it was seperated out, as a paragraph by itself, was just an example to compare to what Harken did, with his one day get together, with an old GF, as opposed to messed up's EA, that lasted a much longer period of time---they all violate the marital script, that is/was what I was trying to say

I certainly did not accuse anyone of any physcial adultery

Sorry, if I got everyone riled up, and to harken, and messed up, I am sorry that you took it/read it the wrong way

It does go very possibly to the crux of this matter, in that messed up--may have used harken's one day meet with an old GF, as a festering point, and subconsciously used that event to help justification for what she did

Obviously messed up, went well beyond appropriate boundaries for a wife and mother, but in the end, they both were hurt by what the other did---now its up to them to sort it all out, and either R., or D.


----------



## happyman64

AllMessedUp and HB,

I know you guys are both hurting. And HB is very upset about your betrayal. I get it.

But you two need to step back now for a few days/weeks.

AMU, you dropped a bombshell on HB. His mind is reeling and so are his emotions.

And AMU, I give you credit for telling the truth. But while you got this guilt off your shoulders you have also hurt HB tremendously. He realizes your A for what it truly was and where it was heading.

I am telling both of you to back off and not make any decisions regarding your marriage for the near future. 

Just give your emotions time to settle and for your heads to be clear so you both can discuss the future of your relationship.

HM64


----------



## Harken Banks

AllMessedUp said:


> Yes, he reached out to connect with her and over the next 8 months shared 35 pages of Facebook communication.


First, thank you AllMessedUp for the post. And thank you JNJ, iheartlife, HappyMan, LM. I was in angry mode last night and showed bad manners. I really did not like the suggestion that maybe I had come to TAM to pre-empt the narrative and not because my world was falling apart and I was trying everything I could think of to make sense of it -I have been brutally honest here. The mood swings are sudden and extreme. Lots of different kinds of angry yesterday. Some different kinds of sad. Some happy and relaxed. Some numb. AllMessedUp witnessed a lot of it and was mostly an exemplary WS. 

References to numbers of pages of FB communication may be misleading. I started it, so it's my fault. Those pages include profile pictures, weird spacing, etc. My "35 pages" over 8 months include 34 posts from me, some of links to music or pictures without text, some simply a line or two, some paragraph responses. 88 posts in total, so 54 from OW. 88 posts too many. Maybe this is an exercise in minimizing, but I thought it would help to point out, this is not 35 pages of single space type.

AllMessedUp, I apologize. This is your space. I'll try to butt out again and reserve my responses to links to my page.


----------



## warlock07

This is what happens when you have lawyers for H and W


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> First, thank you AllMessedUp for the post. And thank you JNJ, iheartlife, HappyMan, LM. I was in angry mode last night and showed bad manners. The mood swings are sudden and extreme. Lots of different kinds of angry yesterday. Some different kinds of sad. Some happy and relaxed. Some numb. AllMessedUp witnessed a lot of it and was mostly an exemplary WS.
> 
> References to numbers of pages of FB communication may be misleading. I started it, so it's my fault. Those pages include profile pictures, weird spacing, etc. My "35 pages" over 8 months include 34 posts from me, some of links to music or pictures without text, some simply a line or two, some paragraph responses. 88 posts in total, so 54 from OM. 88 posts too many. Maybe this is an exercise in minimizing, but I thought it would help to point out, this is not 35 pages of single space type.


*Yes, he reached out to connect with her and over the next 8 months shared 35 pages of Facebook communication. He doesn’t like the quotes I provided because he doesn’t feel they provide the correct context, but the discussions occurred – I agree he maintained boundaries. He admits that it stroked his ego to hear this beautiful woman* 


HB, you are mistaken about how much this has hurt your marriage. About a year ago, my old girlfriend friended me on facebook. She made a couple of comments on my wall. I NEVER responded in any way to her except to look at her pictures, wall and profile. Nine months later my wife, looking over my shoulder, saw her on my list of friends. Ballistic, hurt, crying etc. doesn't even begin to explain her reaction. And this is someone I haven't seen or spoken to in 30 years.

The problems in your marriage have brought you two to this point. I think you are missing the majopr causes you are here and dwelling on the fallout.

The both of you are lucky in that nothing physical has happened. Now fix the problems that brought you so close to the brink and save your family. Both of you need to concentrate on what you have done and less on what has been done to you. Not just with these two other people but to how you have been ignoring each other in order to pursue your careers, hobbies, outside interests, family commitments etc.

Everyone here knows by now that a married couple has to spend 15-20 hrs together a week to make a marriage work. Both of you need to sit down and figure out how much time you have been spending together. 

What books have you two read so far that have been suggested? 

You can do this if you get your egos out of the way and put your spouse and your family first. But first you both have to realize you have been ignoring/driving your partner away.


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken Banks said:


> *The mood swings are sudden and extreme*. Lots of different kinds of angry yesterday. Some different kinds of sad. Some happy and relaxed. Some numb. AllMessedUp witnessed a lot of it and was mostly an exemplary WS.


The bolded part. Yeah. I totally understand that. I've been there many times, HB. I'm happy, however, to read your comment about AMU being "exemplary". It's tough to admit that about the WS at times, but I feel if you truly want to reconcile, you _have_ to see the good.

I'm trying to read your thread now, man...it's an epic-ly long one, though!

AMU: This is your thread and I need to make sure I don't just chat with HB. It was difficult for me as a BS to read the content of the texts you sent your AP. I live with the fact that Regret (my wife) actually DID what you described. From my vantage, I can tell you that HB is probably more hurt that you kept details from him. Oh...I know that so well, unfortunately. BUT! If you have truly told him everything and every detail, all I can counsel you is to be patient with him. He is going to ask the same stuff over and over and over. It will most certainly try your will. Just. Be. Patient.


----------



## AMU

warlock07 said:


> This is what happens when you have lawyers for H and W


Warlock - you made me laugh for the first time in days - thank you!


----------



## Harken Banks

AllMessedUp said:


> Warlock - you made me laugh for the first time in days - thank you!


Back off, buddy!


----------



## AngryandUsed

HB and AMU,

May I suggest both of you take some time off from TAM?


----------



## warlock07

Harken Banks said:


> Back off, buddy!


Is it too soon for a "We are just friends" joke?


----------



## I'm The Prize

:slap:


warlock07 said:


> Is it too soon for a "We are just friends" joke?


----------



## Chaparral

AMU, do you have as hard a time following your husbands line of thought as I find his minimalist posts? After most of his comments, I am left wondering what he is trying to express.


----------



## Affaircare

warlock07 said:


> Is it too soon for a "We are just friends" joke?


:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: 

YES!



Okay all joking aside, AMU I wanted you to know I have been thinking about and wanting to write to both you and HB. I'll do my best to see if I can get it done tonight. But I wanted you (both) to know that in my first marriage my ex left me for his mistress so I was the loyal spouse, and I can honestly say it almost killed me. To my eternal regret, in my second marriage I was the disloyal spouse, and I even knew about infidelity, knew better, and was the kind of person almost everyone would say "She would NEVER do that"...and I did. So I have personal experience on both sides. It is my observation that many of the people who write here on CWI are loyal spouses trying to deal with it, and very few are disloyal spouses who are trying to save their marriage after they were the one who destroyed it! So I'm going to "hang out" about 95% here and do my best to work with and talk to AMU. From you, AMU, I do ask only one thing. No matter how gross, ugly, or scary the truth is...tell me the truth. [NOTE: I don't care if you have to PM it due to privacy, but I want to be clear that there is a difference between privacy and secrecy. PRIVACY is when revealing that detail out loud on this forum would give away your identity in real life or possibly break anonymity. SECRECY is when attempting to hide a detail, deny it, or sweep it under the rug. Privacy--think modesty or closing the door when you go to the bathroom. Secrecy--think hiding the truth, keeping it from someone, covering up, etc. I will respect your privacy but I won't keep secrets.] 

Here's the thing. I know that telling the full truth has not been a safe thing for you. But I can't help you if you tell me "I love my husband" and in your heart of hearts what you honestly think is: "Well I did commit to him but I actually feel nothing right now" or "I can't stand to see him hurt anymore but I don't really feel smooshy stuff about him at all!" If you feel that and you tell me that...I can help you rebuild the smooshy stuff! If I don't know...I can't help ya.

Okay? Alright I'll try to be back later!


----------



## AMU

Locard said:


> Fiction


I wasn't sure what you meant when you posted this, so I searched for your other threads and found your fiction post. I'm seriously offended you think this is fiction - this is my life, my marriage blowing up in my face because of terrible actions I have taken, my pain, and even more importantly, BH's pain. I've messed up, again and again over the past five months, with actions taken, lies and half truths. I truly came here for advice, as it is clear in reading through the threads there is a tremendous amount of knowledge here, almost all of it based on individuals' real life experiences. Everything started to implode this past week and I was hopeful for advice as to how to move forward. Nothing I've written is fiction - frankly, I'm pissed you would have the gall to post that. This is REAL. Despite the fact I wish so much it weren't.


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## Chaparral

Locard said:


> Fiction


Read the posting guidelines


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## Harken Banks

Locard, our situation is real. Other members of this board, including at least one who is currently banned (I understand he holds the record), can independently verify that. We don't need to convince you. I just don't want to leave the insinuation hanging, unaddressed on AllMessedUp's thread. She is very brave for coming here. Remarkable, really, considering that until about a week ago her expressed view was that I was wallowing in this stuff, the stories here, and my adopted reality that my wife was having an affair and I had something in common with the BSs on this site. TAM, and every BS on the site, owes AllMessedUp and every other WS with the courage and honesty to come into a place like this a huge debt of gratitude. I'm still pissed at her.


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## costa200

> Remarkable, really, considering that until about a week ago her expressed view was that I was wallowing in this stuff, the stories here, and my adopted reality that my wife was having an affair and I had something in common with the BSs on this site.


Ouch...


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## anonymouskitty

Harken Banks said:


> TAM, and every BS on the site, owes AllMessedUp and every other WS with the courage and honesty to come into a place like this a huge debt of gratitude.



A debt of gratitude, for what??

:scratchhead::scratchhead:

Its your life that's going to be affected by her honesty or lack thereof, we're just nameless strangers, and I, for one, owe your WS nothing.


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## Harken Banks

Minimizing my footprint: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-23.html#post930538


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## Harken Banks

Not quite how the conversation went. Thanks AMU for the post.


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## Harken Banks

AMU, I said nothing of the sort. You launched into an attack. I don't think this is the appropriate forum for petty exchanges.


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## Shaggy

Time for both of you to withdraw to your separate corners fort the rest of the night.

Btw giving up the booze right no will help you deal much better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

I agree with stopping the booze. Purposely taking something to make you an ass to your wife isn't a smart way to reconcile.......and I'm saying this whether or not the conversation went down like that.


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## Acabado

Not a good thing fighting over internet, get professional help. 
A good MC.

AMU let him vent, friend. You have been hurting him very badly for months, making him believe he was crazy and stupid, amsculating him on his back, making a fool of him, seeing him breaking down without giving a damm, are you really, really complaining after 4 nights of anger? Good Lord, what a sense of proportion!
Name calling... I already said you. Grow a skin, friend. It's nothing, really. Envision him as a wounded caged animal, it's the pain talking, not hate. If things get too heated ask him "what's your goal"? If things don't diffuse you remove yourself from situation.
Purchase a punching bag and a pair of gloves, hang it at the garage, for him.

HB, give up the booze. Man.


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## Chaparral

I'm assuming something was deleted. How many times can you come here and see a thread not make sense. LOL


----------



## AMU

Thanks to so many of you for your stories and suggestions. I took the advice of many and took our “story” off the pages of TAM and tried to instead focus on our marriage. I have been here every day, reading others stories for hours, feeling all the hurt and pain and feeling horribly ashamed and heartbroken over causing my own dear husband so much pain through my own affair. It will be 4 weeks ago tomorrow that I finally shared the entire truth with my husband. The details, the content of my discussion with AP, the extent of my communications with AP between Feb 29th and June 7th. I’ve been an open book - I provided him with the phone records, gave him my old cell phone (which I had shipped back to corporate right before I finally came clean and hours later, after BH and talked, I immediately asked that it be shipped back to me, so no one has touched it BH opened the package when it was returned - he has his work IT guy working on retrieving all the texts), I've answered every question he has asked as fully and honestly as I can. He has for months had all my passwords and has access to my computer, FB and phone any time he wants – I only wish he would look. For the first time last week, he opened my computer while I took the kids to camp – I was relieved. Nothing to hide, want him to confirm, but he knows I deleted texts and office phone VOIP calls in the past, so he feels that even if he finds nothing, he still doesn’t know. I gave him the name and phone number of AP’s boss, and he called and confirmed that AP was not traveling when I was this spring – this also exposed the affair to AP’s boss, which is good as well. I have spoken with numerous MCs to find a good fit, and found one recommended by both his own IC as well as a MC with whom I spoke that I think would be a good fit for us. I have asked him again and again if he would go with me, and he says not now. I will be meeting with an IC this week (have selection down to two). I have been reading Not Just Friends and as many have recommended, is a wonderful source. I also read Five Languages of Love back in March when I was really feeling lost about our marriage (recommended by my boss) but know I was full in the fog at the time as well. And I look forward to several of the other books recommended. 

I have tried to reach out to BH, be with him when he wants me to, giving him space when he wants it. I’ve reached out to have 1-1 time with him, taking him to lunch and each time answering all the inevitable questions and direction of our discussion. I stop by to see him when he is working to say hello, give him a hug, tell him I care. I call him and text him. I reach out to him physically as well, with hugs and hand holding as well as in bed. The entire summer I’ve tried to take the lion’s share of the kids’ responsibilities, as I know he is in too much pain/hurt to do much of anything and the kids’ drop offs/pick ups, etc stress him out more. I’ve told him over and over and over how sorry I am for hurting him, for not being the person he deserves, for disrespecting both him and myself by crossing boundaries again and again. For watching him fear something more was going on, watching him lose weight as he worried, but continuing to lie to him so he wouldn’t know the truth about the affair. For continuing to lie even after I ended all contact through a no contact text on June 7th. I did so for so many reasons – to escape the truth, because I was humiliated I had done the things I had, so he wouldn’t know “all” and because I saw what “not knowing” had done to him and I feared that the truth would make things even worse. But he wasn’t getting better, he was getting worse, so I finally told all to him and to all of you in this thread. I own all my actions – my completely inappropriate contact and even sexual discussions with AP, as well as the lies along the way. I’ve shared my abominable behavior with him, with several of our friends and with his parents. I’ve been doing everything in my power to show BH that I’m so very, very sorry for the pain, for the lies, for putting him through this. For not loving him in the way and manner that he deserves – for not showing him the love I feel so deep in my heart. I’ve apologized again and again and again, while listening to him tell me all the things I know he feels – that it’s disgusting, that I’m disgusting, that he married me because he knew I would never do anything like this and that he just doesn’t know how he gets over something like this. And I know that it is up to him – I just hope and PRAY every day that he will give US a chance. And me another chance to show him how much I love him, want to be with him – now and for the rest of our lives.

Yet BH tells me he doesn’t see any remorse, and I’m not sure how to respond. I’m trying to do so in all the ways I know, but I’m clearly failing. He tells me I’m emotionally incapable of feeling anything for anyone. He tells me he wants to work through this, yet most of his words and actions tell me he doesn’t. 

Well today, we were out to lunch at a beautiful outdoor location with our family and his brother who is visiting. After lunch I picked up his phone to glance at his texts. And I was shocked to see a drafted text to his IC stating that for this week’s session he wanted to discuss the fact that he was seeing a divorce attorney on Monday and bringing all our tax returns and financial information. Here I was thinking we were working on things and instead he is pursuing the D route. I am crushed and heartbroken. He tells me it’s just so he understands the “where he would be before and after” but to me if says if he wants to know that, he’s looking to be out. I’m crushed. Not because I don’t deserve it – I know this is his choice after my actions, but I have been so hopeful we could try to work on things. I’ve been reading the reconciliation thread out there and this sure doesn’t feel like reconciliation – feels like the opposite.

I know I won’t find much solace in this board, but I am hurting so badly. Tearing myself up inside that my stupid and reckless actions brought us to this place. And still wishing, wishing, wishing for that happy ending….

So sad,
AllMessedUp


----------



## theroad

AllMessedUp said:


> I gave him the name and phone number of AP’s boss, and he called and confirmed that AP was not traveling when I was this spring – this also exposed the affair to AP’s boss, which is good as well. (



AP's can not work for the same business/company after the BS finds out about the affair.

Your BH can not count on your boss, or the OM's boss to keep you two from breaking NC.

Are you going to skip meeting or Co. events when the OM is going to be there?

Can you guarantee that you will never pass OM in the building?

Can you guarantee that you won't see OM in the parking lot, or even OM car?

If you cared about recovery and your BH heart being continously being broken every time you go to work you would resign from this job first thing Monday morning.


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## WorkingOnMe

If there is still contact then there is no remorse and any reconciliation is a false one. It's not possible to reconcile while you still have contact. The fact you haven't quit means yore not truly remorseful.


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## AMU

I'm not sure why you are talking about no contact - there isn't and hasn't been since my no contact text to him on June 7th. My husband has contacted AP multiple times in the last few weeks, but I have have NO contact whatsoever since June 7th and have absolutely no desire to. As for the company, I work for a company with 50,000 employees, I telecommute from our home and AP lives in a state 1500 miles away. There are no meetings with him, no chance of meeting in buildings, no passing in the car. There is no reason for us to have any contact for work and BH has not at any time asked me to quit my job. I asked BH if he wanted me to and he said no.


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## SomedayDig

AMU, I know you may have said it in Harken's thread, but could you again relate your work and how the AP fits in with it. 

HB is gonna be broken up for a while. Unfortunately, that's just the cold truth. It sucks. I know. It's just the way it is. I know you understand that when you trickle truthed him that made it basically Dday all over again and he had to start back at square one. That you spent time in a hotel room with the AP and state that there was no physical contact, how else can you expect HB to react. You did initially lie about the extent of the EA so it is only natural for him to feel there was a physical aspect.

Aye! There's the rub.



EDIT: Okay, you just answered my question about your career as I posted this. Thanks!


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## AMU

SomedayDig said:


> HB is gonna be broken up for a while. Unfortunately, that's just the cold truth. It sucks. I know. It's just the way it is. I know you understand that when you trickle truthed him that made it basically Dday all over again and he had to start back at square one. That you spent time in a hotel room with the AP and state that there was no physical contact, how else can you expect HB to react. You did initially lie about the extent of the EA so it is only natural for him to feel there was a physical aspect.
> 
> Aye! There's the rub.
> 
> First, I want to correct one thing you said - I NEVER was in a hotel room at any time with AP. When I met him for the first time (we had both worked for the same company for over 10 years and had never met), we were at a sales kick-off in Florida (a meeting I had never gone to before and don't have to in the future) - this was the one and only time I ever saw him in person. And after a company evening event, I sat outside with him in chairs right outside the hotel, overlooking the beach talking late at night. He never entered my room nor I his. I barely knew him at the time, but after becoming Facebook friends, we started chatting very frequently very quickly and things went south from there.
> 
> But you are correct, Dig, I did lie to him and even after I stopped all contact with AP, I lied to HB about the extent of the communication and substance of the communications prior to ending contact. And I delayed telling him those details for almost 6 weeks after I ended contact. I know that factor is a major struggle point for HB. The fact that he is now meeting with a divorce attorney with everything on the table, me doing everything I can to try to reconcile speak volumes as to where HB stands.


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## SomedayDig

I'm sorry about that AMU...what you wrote was "...he went back to his room to get towels" for the chairs. I mis-read that as "we went back..." My humble apologies for that.

Without asking HB, can you tell me why you think he's going to meet with this divorce attorney. Not the mechanical why he's going but the WHY do you think he's going.


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## EI

I'm so sorry, AMU. Is he determined to follow through with divorce or is he just seeking advice? I wish there was something I could do or say to make things better for both of you. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could just be happy? It sounds so simple, but it never is, is it? If you need to vent or chat more send me a pm. I was thinking about you, just today and thought that I needed to check up on you.

Try to stay positive, things could get better, I hope they do.


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## AMU

SomedayDig said:


> I'm sorry about that AMU...what you wrote was "...he went back to his room to get towels" for the chairs. I mis-read that as "we went back..." My humble apologies for that.
> 
> Without asking HB, can you tell me why you think he's going to meet with this divorce attorney. Not the mechanical why he's going but the WHY do you think he's going.


I think he is going because he doesn't trust me, doesn't see how he can get past this and wants to be prepared for the future. If it was a "I want to understand what my rights are" meeting, I don't think he'd be bringing all our tax returns and financial information, and his note to his IC said he is. He told me today that he wasn't trying to hide anything, yet in all our discussions, he never hinted at this other than to threaten several weeks ago to return a call to a divorce attorney he said he already had called. He has now returned that call and is proceeding. 

As you have noted, different people can work through different things, and after seeing you and Regret's story as well as B1 and EI's, I've been so hopeful that HB would try to give us a try. We have 13 years of history with some fantastic memories, four beautiful daughters and a lifetime of memories to make - I so hope. Even though my affair never went physical (one of the reasons I want HB to have the texts is that even though they will be horrible for him to read, he will be able to see that it was never physical), we definitely talked about sexual topics and fantasies. And that turns his stomach as well. Turns and turns and turns.


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## SomedayDig

I think HB is trying to give you guys a try. I really do. It's just that sometimes, and I'm speaking to you from the BS side of the story...sometimes it is just so f'ng painful to think of our wife saying or doing the act is seemingly insurmountable.

"To be or not to be. That is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against the sea of troubles, and by opposing...defeat them".

Sometimes we must let go to truly grasp what is in our hands.


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## SoulStorm

I think what has HB so unwilling to trust is the lies, of course, but also the intent.
He has seen in black and white what you were intending, although fantasy, with the OM.
HB cannot really know if you would have done what you wrote..seeing that you were not honest about it forehand.
He cannot trust you even though he wants to so badly.
All your actions beforehand have been negated by your "intent" and actions after that intent (lies, deception) have put HB in a place where he may never fully trust you again..he may not want to live like that.

All your actions now..although honorable, could be looked at as manipulation..( For the record, I believe all your actions are sincere) by HB. The glow you once had in his eyes have been dimmed. Even though all your efforts now are shining as bright as the sun..he is still wearing shades created by the lies..deception and erotic fantasy you shared with the OM.

I am wishing for you both to come out of this on the better side.


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## warlock07

I'm sorry AMU. I think he is on the rollercoaster now. He will flip flop to both extremes for a while.


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## EI

AMU, it isn't over yet. HB is hurting right now. Anyone reading his posts these last few weeks can see that he is swimming in a sea of disillusionment. But, I want you to know that I know you are hurting, too. He hasn't filed, yet, and even if he does there is no guarantee that he will follow through. Right now he is trying to do something, anything, to make his pain stop. I know this, all too well, because I live every day of my life staring into the eyes of someone looking back at me with love, mixed with hurt, disbelief, utter devastation and sometimes, anger. After 2 1/2 months, there is seldom a day that goes by that B1 and I don't laugh, cry, share intimacy, cry, talk, cry, enjoy one another, cry.... and then we inevitably have to talk about the hard stuff, the painful stuff.... the elephant in the room, and that damn elephant never leaves the room. He has asked me the same questions in a thousand different ways, over and over, again. I answer those questions every single time and I hate it... I hate it. I've reached a point where I don't sugarcoat anything, because he knows me well enough to know when I've tried to do that. I can't even look at him when I answer the questions, so I don't. I just speak in very clinical, factual terms and I tell him everything he wants to know. I don't understand his desire for these details. I don't believe that if the situation were reversed that I would want these kinds of details. But, men tend to be different. It's like he is a human shock absorber. He wants to know it all, to feel the pain, absorb the pain and then the pain goes away. But, only for a little while, because there is another bump in the road right around the corner and we start all over again.

Even though your affair was not a PA, HB is struggling with the trickle-truth aspect of the A. I think he is still afraid that there are things that he doesn't know and he is afraid that that is what is unbearable. 

Keep answering his questions, love him, hold him, comfort him. I learned that when B1 was the most "angry" with me, that he was really in the most pain. I didn't think he would want me to touch him.... but one day he was so angry, so mad, hurting, crying, saying horrible things and I just went to him even though he told me not to and held him and cradled his head in my arms against my chest. Bear in mind that I really wanted to turn around and run away. I let him pour his heart out in graphic detail about his hurts, fears and insecurities... and I just listened. I quit defending myself, quit trying to justify my actions, quit trying to explain, how, why....... I just listened and said how sorry I was, how wrong I was, how much I loved him and how grateful I was that he loved me, too. It was hard but at the end of the day we had made progress.

I'm hoping that you and HB will have your happy ending. <3

Take Care,
EI


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## Regret214

EI, again, you say the words that I cannot articulate. AMU, all I can say, is just be there for him. Let him know you are all there...100%! give him the love and support that he desperately needs right now, and have faith in him. You and HB are in my prayers!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Regret214 said:


> EI, again, you say the words that I cannot articulate. AMU, all I can say, is just be there for him. Let him know you are all there...100%! give him the love and support that he desperately needs right now, and have faith in him. You and HB are in my prayers!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's funny Regret. I think you articulated just fine right now!


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## TDSC60

I'm a little late to this party, but I have to say that AMU is reading WWWAAAYYY too much into the meeting with a divorce attorney. It is still relatively early after HB FINALLY was given the whole truth. He naturally suspects that AMU is still withholding something. 

HB seems like a logical, step-by-step kind of guy. So it is natural for him to want the logistics of a divorce from an attorney. Not because he has decided to get a divorce, but because he would be a fool not to be prepared for that possibility. He needs to be prepared for all eventualities. He is processing this in his own way.


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## Acabado

It isn't over. He's in real pain. He was really in the dark, fighting on his own for the marriage, being gaslighted. Now, finnaly with the truth in his hands the pain is even worse. HE has do digest it. He's there. With you.
Keep showing your real self. Don't fake. Be honest, be kind, be comited, comunicate. I think you are in the right path. Actions speak way louder than words. Being present, little gestures, a hand at time... that things makes wonders for a wounded heart. Imagine that kind of tiny rain barely perceived you don't worry to be under. Suddenly you notice you are soaked. Just love him, choose it every time. Maybe now can't feel it be he will feel loved at the end, no doubt. Be patient.
What he's missing is some magical emotional displayal of remorse wich will erase the pain altogether. It won't happen. He will know soon.
Talking to a lawyer is not the end of the world, really. I did. Not even filing! Not the end. Keep fighting.
I can understand your worries. Hang in there, friend.


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## Will_Kane

I've watched many betrayed spouses struggle with getting over their wives' infidelities on this forum.

I have posted something similar to this before, but I think it applies to your husband as well.

He knows that HE would NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE cheat on his wife.

From the time he was young, way before he even met you, the woman who would become his wife, he had the very strong expectation that his wife would never cheat on him. That expectation only got stronger and stronger after he actually met you, the woman who became his wife, after he married you, after you two had kids, after you two faced life's ups and downs together. He knew you had faults, maybe he knew you were stubborn, maybe he knew you were a little self-centered, but whatever your faults were, he NEVER questioned your faithfulness to him. He KNEW that HIS WIFE would NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE cheat on him.

Then he found out that you did cheat on him. To make matters worse, you cheated when your marriage was relatively good, when there were no exceptional stresses on it - no loss of job, no serious illnesses, no personal crises.

Now, he wants to get back to that feeling that you could never cheat. He would settle for the feeling that you could never cheat AGAIN. But, the bad news is that he will never get that feeling back (unless he's the type to lie to himself, which I don't think he is).

Those who reconcile do so with the knowledge that their spouses are CAPABLE of cheating. They may have great marriages, meeting all or most of each other's needs, have great honest open communications, their marriage may be so much better than it was before the infidelity in every way, save for one: they now KNOW their spouse could cheat on them. For those that choose to reconcile, they are willing to accept that. Either that, or they have convinced themselves that their spouses have now changed into people who are no longer capable of cheating (how they somehow are able to convince themselves of that may be the answer to your husband's dilemma).

There are women out there who would NEVER CHEAT on their husbands UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, just like he wouldn't cheat on you under any circumstance. You are not one of those women. He can either divorce you and look for one of those women, or he can accept that his wife could cheat on him. Or go on the way he has been since D-day. You two can improve your marriage, communicate better, consistently make sure you're both meeting each other's needs - but he can't un-know that you cheated on him, and I don't know if anyone ever really gets to the place where they KNOW their spouse who cheated once will never cheat again (if a betrayed spouse who has reached this place of knowing taht their spouses, who already have cheated once, will never cheat again in the future, could share this information, many betrayed spouses would be very grateful).

If he wants to reconcile and keep his sanity, he has to accept that cheating is something his wife is capable of. If things get tough in your marriage, if things get routine, boring, if he gets too busy to give his wife consistent attention, he is going to wonder if you will start cheating on him. That is his new reality he has to accept. If he can't, then I think he will keep feeling how he feels now. That may not be how he wants to feel for the foreseeable future.

*ON ANOTHER NOTE*, you should start to agree with your husband in word and spirit. What I mean is, in your posts here, you refer to the other man as your AP; your husband has been referring to the other man alternately as POSOM, sh+tburger, and other such names. And that is on the forum. I can only imagine how he refers to this guy when he talks to you. It might help if you started speaking your husband's language when it comes to your affair. One more example: you refer to talking about "sexual topics and fantasies;" it might help if you referred to them how your husband probably does - messages about how you wanted to fvck the POSOM; at the very least, never refer to any message you sent to the POSOM without putting an adjective like disgusting in front of it.

*Here is an excerpt from one of your husband's first posts:*

_I’m stewing in this stuff. Obsessed with her apparent obsession. I couldn’t sleep. Went for a trail run in the dark at 4 am. Came home no less agitated. Picked up her phone, which was on the night stand next to her. Text from this random guy: “He needs to find the dignity and smarts to figure this out for himself and stop projecting hate/blame/ [can’t remember what else] onto me.” She is half awake and looks at me to say what are you doing? With the bite of disgust and ire. I’m incensed by what I have read. *“This guy just insulted your husband in at least 4 ways that come to mind immediately. He has insulted my intelligence, my character, my dignity, my judgment, my perception. I do not have a single friend who would insult you. I would not have a friend who would insult you. I would immediately lose respect for anyone who would insult you to me and they would no longer be my friend. You cannot have a friend like this and be married to me.” *Didn’t go well from there. I’m sure many of you know what came next._

*Here's another excerpt:*

_*Guy's a sh+tburger*. He owes me nothing and that is not where the problem is, but I recognize him for what he is._

Your cheating is the problem that your husband may not be able to get over. Your lying about it afterwards also is huge - as a matter of fact, it is definitely a much bigger problem for your husband to get over than the cheating. You can't do anything about those two things now. However, your lack of condemning the affair by not referring to anything to do with it in the harshest terms possible, is making him think you still have one foot in your AP's camp.


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## rigcol

I wish you well AMU. I agree that your EA is inexcusable but I respect your attempts to salvage your marriage. Unfortunately,we are not perfect - people screw up. Finally, I'm surprised at Harken's attitude regarding his ex-girlfriend, it does not excuse what AMU did but I find it equally dishonest.


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## Chaparral

Yes I believe it. It happens all the time. Almost everyone thinks an affair is physical. I had no idea what an emotional affair was until I came to TAM. And the problem is, EA seem to be just as devastating to the betrayed spouse as a PA. Without the expressions of love however, I don't think it is much more than a long distance circle jerk.


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## LongWalk

Hello AMU,

I know that you are still on TAM because you posted on your husband's thread. His private place on the Internet is now a pressure cooker. No one is interested in your infidelity there now.

The popular desire is for a happy ending for your family. This entails him facing his addiction to alcohol. This is a very tough, but as you noted he has a lot of great personal qualities. 

I realize that you are now likely to divorce since he will not give up drink. However, you have been going to AA meetings for family. That is helping you to deal with anger. You are to be applauded for taking the initiative.

I rooting for you guys to resolve your conflict. Perhaps divorce will get him to rethink things and in time you will be together again. But regardless we are here for you, your daughters and him.

Will you go to skiing this winter? Do you enjoy watching your daughters race. I hope so. Would love to see some photos.

Now that TAM is applying a blow torch to his feet, are you going to give HB a comforting hug? He deserves one for not deleting his thread. What the heck, snuggle up in bed and tell him he did well to stay on the forum.


----------



## staystrong

AMU,

Harken often references your abuse, rage and cruelty. 

Can you comment on that?


----------



## bfree

I know where Harken is right now as I've been there. I can tell you categorically that until he loses something precious to him he will not stop. I had to be friendless, homeless, jobless and hopeless before I made the decision to stop and even then it took me several times of failing before it stuck. You're in Alanon so you should be receiving good advice/info from them. Just know that you might love him but right now you can't help him. Only he can do that and he needs to want to if it is to be successful.


----------



## Harken Banks

State Farm® - "Jingle 2.0 Road Trip" - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

Harken and I both like Raymond Carver, one of America's greatest short story writers. He had hard life. When things got difficult he turned to the bottle. He didn't think alcoholism happened to people like him. Later he joined AA. His first marriage did not survive the difficulties. He talks a little about his taste for alcohol and the affect it has on the artist in this documentary.



> Maryann Burk Carver met Raymond Carver in 1955, when she was fifteen years old and he was seventeen. In What It Used to Be Like, she recounts a tale of love at first sight in which two teenagers got to know each other by sharing a two-year long-distance correspondence that soon after found them married and with two small children.
> 
> Over the next twenty-five years, as Carver's fame grew, the family led a nomadic life, moving from school to school and teaching post to teaching post. In 1972, they settled in Cupertino, California, where Raymond Carver gave his wife one of his sharpened pencils and asked her to write an account of their history.
> 
> The result is a memoir of a marriage, replete with an intimacy of detail that fully reveals the talents and failings of this larger-than-life man, his complicated relationships, and his profound loves and losses. What It Used to Be Like brings to light for the first time Raymond Carver's lost years and the "stories behind the stories" of this brilliant writer.


I'd very much like to read this book... perhaps you could buy it and when you finish it, I'd like to borrow it.

Racer wrote well about honesty. Sometime we think we are living up to a certain standard when objectively we aren't. I know have major failings. I don't think many of us are as good as we think we are. Maybe I am further from what I wish I were than than HB is from what he thinks he is.

We expect a lot of him because he is smart and is hard on himself when he is honest.

HB has no right to put you down because he is a sharp guy. I'm sure Carver felt guilty about his first marriage. Imagine a woman believing in a genius and suffering hardship, only to be worn out and discarded just before he became famous.

If HB has to drink to stand you, then you have no future together. I don't know whether you have to be more loving before he'll stop drinking or he'll have to be more sober before you become more loving. Does it even work like that?

Ms GP was unable to love her husband fully while in rehab. They talked on the phone every night. She used to say that she loved him. He didn't say it back. That the calls happened at all were his statement. He put the divorce on hold while she was being treated.


----------



## LongWalk




----------



## MattMatt

I thought alcohol was my friend.

But it wasn't....


----------



## LongWalk

When the whiskey glides down your throat and your stomach feels warm as the alcohol goes straight into the blood stream, you know a warm glow is coming. The world is going to feel all right. Might suck but it's going to feel all right.

It's a delusion. What could be nicer than a good red wine following a mouthful of something delicious. But once you can't live without those feelings, you've lost control.


----------



## LongWalk

When the whiskey glides down your throat and your stomach feels warm as the alcohol goes straight into the blood stream, you know a warm glow is coming. The world is going to feel all right. Might suck but it's going to feel all right.

It's a delusion. What could be nicer than a good red wine following a mouthful of something delicious. But once you can't live without those feelings, you've lost control.


----------



## Harken Banks

My wife has no idea who Ray Carver was and this is her thread. I am more than happy to discuss on one of my own. And she is as always welcome to join. But I cannot resist adding that will you please be quiet, please? came to mind. I really think people who have given up drink are legion here and it's to me weird.


----------



## MattMatt

Harken Banks said:


> My wife has no idea who Ray Carver was and this is her thread. I am more than happy to discuss on one of my own. And she is as always welcome to join. But I cannot resist adding that will you please be quiet, please? came to mind. I really think people who have given up drink are legion here and it's to me weird.


Oh, I haven't given up drink. But when I realised it wasn't _really_ my friend, I cut back by one heck of a lot.


----------



## Harken Banks

MattMatt said:


> Oh, I haven't given up drink. But when I realised it wasn't _really_ my friend, I cut back by one heck of a lot.


Understood. And will you please be quiet, please? was I think the first Carver I read. The title seemed apt. Just on the temperance society stuff. OK. Got it. Thanks.


----------



## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> I really think people who have given up drink are legion here and it's to me weird.


I still have a drink from time to time. I just don't engage in substance abuse any more. Isn't it interesting that you seem to stand alone on this island of yours? Maybe we are all wrong and only you are right? Does that seem likely to you?


----------



## staystrong

I'm still waiting for AMU to address the alleged cruelty, rage and tyranny.

Unless she has discussed this already in another thread.


----------



## staystrong

Harken Banks said:


> Understood. And will you please be quiet, please? was I think the first Carver I read. The title seemed apt. Just on the temperance society stuff. OK. Got it. Thanks.


It's interesting how petulant, defiant and incorrigible you become when we discuss your AP alcohol, Harken. It'd be one thing if you said "I like drinking and it's not a part of my life I'm really willing to tone down" _and_ concede that you drink a lot, more than you probably 'should'. You won't admit to the 'should' part and evade direct questions about quantity. If quantity was not an issue, you'd clearly state how much you drink. It reminds me of how WS's minimize the affair and the instances of sex. Do you see the parallel? PS - Again, we're not talking about caffeine, gluten, or minor substances, so stuff that argument. It insults people's intelligence. We're not saying alchy-hol is the devil's urine. But one thing it is .. is a crutch. 

Clearly you see it is a part of your identity and your way of life, and you tend to cite well-known thinkers and writers who have led lives in which drinking played a notable role. I'm just curious if you think "that's my group", that's who your kindred spirits are. If so, maybe your wife really will have to accept you for that, and not try to change you. But she has tried because she loves you.. how can you be so blind and arrogant to not see that? You push it back on her, saying she is trying to change you for her! Well, maybe partially, to make life more cohesive, but she's probably the only person who is close enough to you to be able to influence your behavioral conditioning. 

I have a couple of friends who would have a very difficult time leading lives where they didn't smoke marijuana constantly. If weed is wrong, they don't want to be right. Very intelligent, very high IQ people.. one is a PhD mathematician neural networking guy and he claims smoking weed helps him to do highly advanced math problems. It probably does, but I also see how he himself is a catalyst in the process, not the THC. He is the one being burned through along with the weed, and it has affected his life. I don't think he's been able to maintain a relationship in part because of his psychological addiction. He'd have to be with a smoker.. he confirms that. He'd have to like someone when they are high in order to know who they really are. In a way, I understand that. The other friend is a grower and a dealer. It's amazing how much he knows about cannabis and the chemistry of it. I love them both, they are both incredibly funny and smart and good people, but neither one is well-adjusted enough to have a family. You have a family whom you love, but you also love drinking and your intellect, and that can crowd out space in your heart and mind for other people's needs. The problem with alcoholics is if they make rules for themselves (e.g. I won't drink at home) they will break them and find a way to be around alcohol. An addiction is mental slavery.. you are not free if your an addict. I know, I am addicted to smoking again. And I hate it. I know what freedom is like and I much prefer that.


----------



## Harken Banks

staystrong said:


> It's interesting how petulant, defiant and incorrigible you become when we discuss your AP alcohol, Harken. It'd be one thing if you said "I like drinking and it's not a part of my life I'm really willing to tone down" _and_ concede that you drink a lot, more than you probably 'should'. You won't admit to the 'should' part and evade direct questions about quantity. If quantity was not an issue, you'd clearly state how much you drink. It reminds me of how WS's minimize the affair and the instances of sex. Do you see the parallel? PS - Again, we're not talking about caffeine, gluten, or minor substances, so stuff that argument. It insults people's intelligence. We're not saying alchy-hol is the devil's urine. But one thing it is .. is a crutch.


Haven't I written this time and again? I thought I had. If not let me say it now. I like drinking but really should tone it down. I haven't avoided the topic or once denied that I should cut back. It did a lot to dull the pain in the last 3 years and it is time for me wean off some. 

My fondness for drink is not responsible for AMU's rage or abuse or other issues. It is not responsible for her affair. It is not responsible for her doubling down on mean in the aftermath. Even though some here have suggested that it is. 

Also, "Will You Please Be Quiet, Please?" is a title.


----------



## staystrong

Great news. Hopefully you can share your plan of action and your progress with everyone here. People are rooting for you guys.


----------



## Harken Banks

staystrong said:


> Great news. Hopefully you can share your plan of action and your progress with everyone here. People are rooting for you guys.


Thanks. I guess you did not make sense of my prior post, which is probably on me. A theme has developed here and on So and maybe some other places that HB drinks too much and that is where all the problems in this marriage come from. I say no. Emphatically no. This has been going of for days now. I would like to remove this post and yours immediately above as they take away from mine two above, which I think should have been the end of this absurd side show for a while.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken we cannot help but indulge in the prescriptive. When there are problems to solve and no evidence that self resolution is in sight, change is necessary.

One of the platitudes about marriage being a bait and switch is that women settle on men expecting to change them while men assume that once married their wives will not change. In your particular case AMU thought that she was going to get this fantastic dream guy and then get him to stop drinking. You thought that this hot woman was still going to make passionate love to you at least three times a week.

You refused to quit drinking and she switched to duty sex. You both thought that the children might change things. Neither of you is the parent you could be because of your chronic open warfare.

AMU betrayed you. Initially she did put her heart and soul into your so-called hysterical bonding. You reclaimed her and she wept in gratitude. But this reconciliation did not bear fruit because the unhealthy dynamic in your marriage reasserted itself with a vengeance. 

Raymond Carver went to AA. Harken Banks can go to AA. I do not believe the line that alcoholics must never touch a drop or they fall off the wagon. If you radically cut back drinking – no booze at home unless entertaining, no more than two drinks while out, no binge drinking, no drinking buddies – you would be able to listen to AMU and see her for what she is.

If she is a frigid, ill tempered and tasteless woman, then you can divorce her and seek happiness with someone new, knowing that you eliminated alcohol as the factor that destroyed your marriage. You will merely shed yourself of a woman who cheated rather than face her own demons. Write her off as misplaced bet and a bad experience.

One question you ought to ask yourself: are you resentful and angry because she is trying to take alcohol out of your life?

As the child of an alcoholic parent, did she subconsciously enter into your relationship, hoping to accomplish what her father could not?

re: all the personal stories I have about alcoholic, drug abuse, mental illness

The truth is these problems are ubiquitous if we scratch the surface. We don't shine lights on these associations because they are shameful and embarrassing. Statistically, we know that America is suffering big time. It is no conincidence that Breaking Bad, Weed, Cops, Friends, Judge Judy, Oprah Winfrey, etc made it so big on to TV.

Alcohol is heavily taxed in all developed countries because it is destructive (and because governments want a cut of the action).

re: Irish
I am half Welsh; mother is a first generation immigrant. My grandfather had 16 children and lived in a council house by dump. The place of her birth is beautiful. A river with migrating salmon goes right her childhood home. In every direction there are mountains with the occasional stone farm house.

My mother has only positive things to say about her father. What great guy my Taid (grandfather) was. In truth he always had money for his pint and tobacco while his kids were half hungry. Sure when things were very bad he stole a sheep or two. One of my mother's favorite childhood foods was brains. Once she grew up moved away and became a nurse, she lost her taste for it.

Wales is no longer so dirt poor. But the drinking is still hurting people in my extended family. One of my cousin's daughters (she is like a cousin to me) runs little hotel. She makes decent money but works hard serving hikers sausage, eggs and beans. In the evenings she goes to the village pub, where the friends spend a significant sum. They have hangovers and say never again. But they have to nurse themselves with wine or beer the next day. They recover but never dry out. At last they all go to the pub again and repeat the process.

My cousin's eldest daughter is talented singer, very Welsh, but she began drinking from her mother's glass early on. My cousin accepts it because drinking is the life style. Children who see a parent really enjoying that mysterious liquid naturally are attracted to it. A certain percentage of these children will have problem, not all.

My mother drinks a beer every night, sometimes two. She likes crappy tasteless imported lager. She is 83. It doesn't matter much. My father never drank more than a couple of glasses of wine a year. He has Alzheimer's and scarcely knows who I am. So the drinker's brain came out way better. Who knew it would turn out this way.

... Another cousin – she was like an aunt to me – God, she was a natural beauty – married a very clever and charming guy. His parents owned a toy store. He worked for them. His talents never found an outlet because he never became independent, never pursued higher education. He would have made a good lawyer or banker. Instead he drank.

He held his liquor well, but eventually the edges began to fray. The respect and affection between my cousin and him disappeared. She suffered a lot before they split. They divorced, causing their children a lot of pain. My cousin remarried a great guy. Her husband I haven't seen in years. I heard he married his cousin (not a first, I hope). 

Alcohol is not necessarily the sole problem in relationships but it is a decisive factor in some. In yours it clearly does because AMU says it does and she is an authority on the subject of your marriage.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Harken we cannot help but indulge in the prescriptive. When there are problems to solve and no evidence that self resolution is in sight, change is necessary.
> 
> One of the platitudes about marriage being a bait and switch is that women settle on men expecting to change them while men assume that once married their wives will not change. In your particular case AMU thought that she was going to get this fantastic dream guy and then get him to stop drinking. You thought that this hot woman was still going to make passionate love to you at least three times a week.
> 
> You refused to quit drinking and she switched to duty sex. You both thought that the children might change things. Neither of you is the parent you could be because of your chronic open warfare.
> 
> AMU betrayed you. Initially she did put her heart and soul into your so-called hysterical bonding. You reclaimed her and she wept in gratitude. But this reconciliation did not bear fruit because the unhealthy dynamic in your marriage reasserted itself with a vengeance.
> 
> Raymond Carver went to AA. Harken Banks can go to AA. I do not believe the line that alcoholics must never touch a drop or they fall off the wagon. If you radically cut back drinking – no booze at home unless entertaining, no more than two drinks while out, no binge drinking, no drinking buddies – you would be able to listen to AMU and see her for what she is.
> 
> If she is a frigid, ill tempered and tasteless woman, then you can divorce her and seek happiness with someone new, knowing that you eliminated alcohol as the factor that destroyed your marriage. You will merely shed yourself of a woman who cheated rather than face her own demons. Write her off as misplaced bet and a bad experience.
> 
> One question you ought to ask yourself: are you resentful and angry because she is trying to take alcohol out of your life?
> 
> As the child of an alcoholic parent, did she subconsciously enter into your relationship, hoping to accomplish what her father could not?
> 
> re: all the personal stories I have about alcoholic, drug abuse, mental illness
> 
> The truth is these problems are ubiquitous if we scratch the surface. We don't shine lights on these associations because they are shameful and embarrassing. Statistically, we know that America is suffering big time. It is no conincidence that Breaking Bad, Weed, Cops, Friends, Judge Judy, Oprah Winfrey, etc made it so big on to TV.
> 
> Alcohol is heavily taxed in all developed countries because it is destructive (and because governments want a cut of the action).
> 
> re: Irish
> I am half Welsh; mother is a first generation immigrant. My grandfather had 16 children and lived in a council house by dump. The place of her birth is beautiful. A river with migrating salmon goes right her childhood home. In every direction there are mountains with the occasional stone farm house.
> 
> My mother has only positive things to say about her father. What great guy my Taid (grandfather) was. In truth he always had money for his pint and tobacco while his kids were half hungry. Sure when things were very bad he stole a sheep or two. One of my mother's favorite childhood foods was brains. Once she grew up moved away and became a nurse, she lost her taste for it.
> 
> Wales is no longer so dirt poor. But the drinking is still hurting people in my extended family. One of my cousin's daughters (she is like a cousin to me) runs little hotel. She makes decent money but works hard serving hikers sausage, eggs and beans. In the evenings she goes to the village pub, where the friends spend a significant sum. They have hangovers and say never again. But they have to nurse themselves with wine or beer the next day. They recover but never dry out. At last they all go to the pub again and repeat the process.
> 
> My cousin's eldest daughter is talented singer, very Welsh, but she began drinking from her mother's glass early on. My cousin accepts it because drinking is the life style. Children who see a parent really enjoying that mysterious liquid naturally are attracted to it. A certain percentage of these children will have problem, not all.
> 
> My mother drinks a beer every night, sometimes two. She likes crappy tasteless imported lager. She is 83. It doesn't matter much. My father never drank more than a couple of glasses of wine a year. He has Alzheimer's and scarcely knows who I am. So the drinker's brain came out way better. Who knew it would turn out this way.
> 
> ... Another cousin – she was like an aunt to me – God, she was a natural beauty – married a very clever and charming guy. His parents owned a toy store. He worked for them. His talents never found an outlet because he never became independent, never pursued higher education. He would have made a good lawyer or banker. Instead he drank.
> 
> He held his liquor well, but eventually the edges began to fray. The respect and affection between my cousin and him disappeared. She suffered a lot before they split. They divorced, causing their children a lot of pain. My cousin remarried a great guy. Her husband I haven't seen in years. I heard he married his cousin (not a first, I hope).
> 
> Alcohol is not necessarily the sole problem in relationships but it is a decisive factor in some. In yours it clearly does because AMU says it does and she is an authority on the subject of your marriage.


No. Please read what I wrote above as it is the last I will say on this topic. And AMU never once had duty sex. I have duty sex. I don't have a problem with it. I come when called. That was part of our bargain.

Longwalk, I very much appreciate the interest and effort.


----------



## Chaparral

staystrong said:


> It's interesting how petulant, defiant and incorrigible you become when we discuss your AP alcohol, Harken. It'd be one thing if you said "I like drinking and it's not a part of my life I'm really willing to tone down" _and_ concede that you drink a lot, more than you probably 'should'. You won't admit to the 'should' part and evade direct questions about quantity. If quantity was not an issue, you'd clearly state how much you drink. It reminds me of how WS's minimize the affair and the instances of sex. Do you see the parallel? PS - Again, we're not talking about caffeine, gluten, or minor substances, so stuff that argument. It insults people's intelligence. We're not saying alchy-hol is the devil's urine. But one thing it is .. is a crutch.
> 
> Clearly you see it is a part of your identity and your way of life, and you tend to cite well-known thinkers and writers who have led lives in which drinking played a notable role. I'm just curious if you think "that's my group", that's who your kindred spirits are. If so, maybe your wife really will have to accept you for that, and not try to change you. But she has tried because she loves you.. how can you be so blind and arrogant to not see that? You push it back on her, saying she is trying to change you for her! Well, maybe partially, to make life more cohesive, but she's probably the only person who is close enough to you to be able to influence your behavioral conditioning.
> 
> I have a couple of friends who would have a very difficult time leading lives where they didn't smoke marijuana constantly. If weed is wrong, they don't want to be right. Very intelligent, very high IQ people.. one is a PhD mathematician neural networking guy and he claims smoking weed helps him to do highly advanced math problems. It probably does, but I also see how he himself is a catalyst in the process, not the THC. He is the one being burned through along with the weed, and it has affected his life. I don't think he's been able to maintain a relationship in part because of his psychological addiction. He'd have to be with a smoker.. he confirms that. He'd have to like someone when they are high in order to know who they really are. In a way, I understand that. The other friend is a grower and a dealer. It's amazing how much he knows about cannabis and the chemistry of it. I love them both, they are both incredibly funny and smart and good people, but neither one is well-adjusted enough to have a family. You have a family whom you love, but you also love drinking and your intellect, and that can crowd out space in your heart and mind for other people's needs. The problem with alcoholics is if they make rules for themselves (e.g. I won't drink at home) they will break them and find a way to be around alcohol. An addiction is mental slavery.. you are not free if your an addict. I know, I am addicted to smoking again. And I hate it. I know what freedom is like and I much prefer that.





Harken Banks said:


> Haven't I written this time and again? I thought I had. If not let me say it now. I like drinking but really should tone it down. I haven't avoided the topic or once denied that I should cut back. It did a lot to dull the pain in the last 3 years and it is time for me wean off some.
> 
> My fondness for drink is not responsible for AMU's rage or abuse or other issues. It is not responsible for her affair. It is not responsible for her doubling down on mean in the aftermath. Even though some here have suggested that it is.
> 
> Also, "Will You Please Be Quiet, Please?" is a title.


If you are drinking anywhere close to what AMU claims, you have no idea what is or was going on. As a matter of fact it doesn't sound like you have any experience with addiction.

I can't think of an addiction that I haven't known someone had a problem with. Everyone is a matter of self delusion unless its a case of not caring.

I actually know a man that is 75 years old that has gone from beer to methadone, to crack, to heroin in the last six years. He was an alcoholic, beer, had to stop drinking for an operation, Dr.s put him on methadone to get him off of beer. He hasn't drank since but he's progressed to heroin. He likes it, he's old so who cares?

Regarding the pot smokers. Stay straight while smokers get high. Its amusing how instantaneously their intelligence goes straight to hell. Lol. Yet when you smoke pot, you think you have this wonderrful insight and creativity. I used to stop st a localnwatering hole where several close friends would step out back to smoke pot. It was a nusiance to have to wait for them to come down a bit to even be able to have a reasonable conversation.

I've known many people on alcohol, some on meth, pot, crack, heroin, cocaine. The common denominator is that they have it under control, they can handle it, they're different.

The first one that died was in college from injecting something, heroin I believe. So many drank themselves to death. Accidents took several while high. Murder for one and maybe two. Oh yeah, one from methadone. Three in an airplane crash while smoking pot . I'm guessing twenty or thirty in deaths alone, not to mention families and children crushed and lives ruined.

If you were seriuosly trying to save your family, you would quit drinking altogether, that takes AMU's justification for any of her aberrant behavior off the table, she will either get with the progrram or eventually lose custody and her family.


----------



## Chaparral

The only downside to quiting an addiction is the realiization of how much, time, money, pain and love it has cost.


----------



## LongWalk

Hi AMU,

I have posted about all I can in the way of advice on HB's thread. I hope you will read it.

To summarize I think Harken needs to quit drinking because you cannot cope with it, even if he thinks he can.

Although you are tired, I suggest that you demonstrate that you have determination. Don't let him off the hook:

1) Clean up all your stored stuff. Sell what you don't need. Prove to yourself that change is possible. Challenge HB by acting.

2) Demand that HB sleep at your side every night. That is the place he supposed to be. Whether or not you have any passion for each other is matter for love and communication (Cat Power's words) to decide. 

3) HB's demand for a statement by you about staying married. State your case. If drinking is a deal breaker, tell him that it is. Tell him and file. Say that you'll cancel the divorce if he quits drinking. If he uses the divorce as a pretext to immediately hop into the dating pool, that is not an expression of love. If he does that, that means he no longer has the strength to love you. 

4) Put a rubber band on your wrist. When you want to yell, snap it and remember to bite your tongue.

I believe in you and HB. You both have to bet on each other. You cannot do it by yourself, nor can he.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken has posted a lot and now feels that his thread is compromised in terms of IRL privacy.

It seems that he is nearer to admitting that he has a disease. He may think he can manage it by reducing consumption. This is less likely to succeed than breaking his dependency.

Your family's problems are not a secret to your circle of friends, are they?

All of your friends on TAM want to see you save your marriage. To do so means accepting that you must risk losing it.

Book MC. There you need to spell it out. Both of you have commit to addressing hoarding, anger and alcohol.

Rooting for you.


----------



## happyman64

We are rooting for them.

You have both proven to be bright, literate and warm persons.

You both obviously love your children very much.

You both obviously love each other or one of you would have walked away from the marriage by now.

But you both have to stop piling the hurts on top of each other. Now.

And Harken it starts with you. Why you ask? Because you are the man. God gave you balls my friend. Now you really have to use them.

To be the leader of your family.

You say you do not want a divorce? Then prove it. Let AMU come home to a dry house.

Signing up for MC is not enough in my mind. You need to be in AA.

You need to do this for yourself. 
You need to do this for AMU.
But most importantly you need to do this for your family.

My own wife reminded me when I was diagnosed with diabetes that I needed to be there not only for her but our daughters as well. She asked me "Don't you want to walk our 3 daughters down the aisle?"

What man would say not to that question. I have lost 55 pounds to date with at least another 55 to go.

Reconciling takes a leap of faith Harken. From both parties.

But in some cases personal goals need to be set in place by each spouse before any type of reconciliation can even be started.

Are you ready to take that leap HB?

Your family deserves it. In fact it requires it.

HM


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> And Harken it starts with you. Why you ask? Because you are the man. God gave you balls my friend.
> HM


My wife has done her best to take them away. She'd have them in a jar if I allowed it.

Thanks for the pep talk. As always.


----------



## happyman64

Hold them close my friend!


----------



## turnera

AMU, are you back from your trip? How was it?


----------



## staystrong

Listen to LongWalk. The man is a sage.

#2 (same bed) is especially important. Maybe it's more of a goal? When you can be in each other's close personal space every night -- when you WANT to be in each other's space -- then real healing is taking place.

HB, I'm not like the others, their words are wizened with age. If I was your brother, I would punch you in the arm all day long about the drinking if need be. In the kidneys, too. But not the liver, you will need that most of all. No, your drinking did not cause the affair, but it does cause friction. Anyhow, I've taken pause on that. 

"Rooting for you both"


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> My wife has done her best to take them away. She'd have them in a jar if I allowed it.
> 
> Thanks for the pep talk. As always.


And she'd be even more miserable. Some women seek to castrate the men they're with. But what use is a castrated man? Seems like self sabotage to me.


----------



## clipclop2

I was thinking that the reason he wants to stay married is because it makes an ok cover for his drinking. IOW, he doesn't have to train a new woman to put up with his alcoholism. Why wouldn't he prefer the old flame he can't seem to give up? She thinks the world of him and only by getting to know the real him would she see his flaws. In an odd sense he has preserved that fantasy by not pursuing what is clearly within reach.

If he could kick the need for booze he would be able to see that he really does want out and would be able to plan and execute without fear.

I do find it really weird that another person from his life posted here. But that's part of the drama in his life. The chaos is really a part of the protective shield. It is it's own entity and it does not want to let HB free.

All he needs to do is take back his independence.

Wish it were that easy for him or anyone. 

I hope he will try and find it is worthwhile.

Edit: what I am trying to say is that it really is the booze making him unhappy. Without having to protect it he would have been able to either fix his marriage or decide that being happy and alone was better.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> I was thinking that the reason he wants to stay married is because it makes an ok cover for his drinking. IOW, he doesn't have to train a new woman to put up with his alcoholism. Why wouldn't he prefer the old flame he can't seem to give up? She thinks the world of him and only by getting to know the real him would she see his flaws. In an odd sense he has preserved that fantasy by not pursuing what is clearly within reach.
> 
> If he could kick the need for booze he would be able to see that he really does want out and would be able to plan and execute without fear.
> 
> I do find it really weird that another person from his life posted here. But that's part of the drama in his life. The chaos is really a part of the protective shield. It is it's own entity and it does not want to let HB free.
> 
> All he needs to do is take back his independence.
> 
> Wish it were that easy for him or anyone.
> 
> I hope he will try and find it is worthwhile.
> 
> Edit: what I am trying to say is that it really is the booze making him unhappy. Without having to protect it he would have been able to either fix his marriage or decide that being happy and alone was better.


I couldn't make any sense of that. I love my wife and would love for us to be intimate and a couple again. But if that presents as not an option, you can be damn sure I will be out having fun. The horizon is expansive. Options endless. I have a bit Pavlovian reaction thinking about it. As do enticing others in respect of me. I really do not think you have the picture. It's why AMU loses here sh*t when I leave the house.


----------



## Harken Banks

I read again and saw that I may not have picked up on the first read. The I suppose unfortunate upshot of all of this alienation is that I am fascinated with the idea of new relations. And fortunate for me those are readily available. So, yes, I think about it a lot. Especially as AMU and I have not had any meaningful intimacy in years. I could walk out the door tonight into the company of someone attractive and accomplished and smart. 

It's funny. How I feel about that seems to run with the hour hand on the clock. In the early morning hours I long for what was our marriage. Waking and as the day goes on I am much more interested in everything else. Kundera and all.


----------



## Cre8ify

How would the prospect of being alone, calling your own shots, making your own way sound? The allure of another woman is always powerful but that would seem to be a less than ideal catalyst for this kind of change.


----------



## Harken Banks

Cre8ify said:


> How would the prospect of being alone, calling your own shots, making your own way sound? The allure of another woman is always powerful but that would seem to be a less than ideal catalyst for this kind of change.


Certainly if this marriage is ending, I have no present interest in another one. I'm gonna walk the Earth. Just be Harken.


----------



## Chaparral

Anger, and an ea. 
Versus
Alcoholism, possible ea, dating websites and several resulting affairs.
Denial wins this one.


----------



## Harken Banks

Chaparral said:


> Anger, and an ea.
> Versus
> Alcoholism, possible ea, dating websites and several resulting affairs.
> Denial wins this one.


Well, maybe. I'll try to keep an open mind. My wife beat the hell out of me emotionally and otherwise for a decade and capped it off with . . ., well, you know.

I had been in a really bad and painful place and what do you know the bottom dropped out from there. In the aftermath I struggled badly. My wife did not help in any meaningful fashion. You're drowning? Here, have an anchor and an anvil. God you can't swim for sh*t. I engaged in conversation with other women only after more than 2 years at failed reconciliation punctuated my by wife's insistence on separation and then divorce proceedings. We started that process, in case that was missed. Rather she started the process and I said as always that I would work with her on it.

Why? I took her at her word and deed and thought if she can go on at all hours with this random guy talking about her orgasms and what she will do to him when they get together again in Florida, AZ, KC, NY, NV, MA or NH with her offering to pay for the tickets and the hotel rooms. Well. After that I destroyed myself emotionally trying to patch this back together. It was a hell I have mostly forgotten how bad because you cannot sustain that and live. And when I think maybe we are making progress and turning a corner, she is hitting me and throwing my clothes into the garage. So I say I guess that's that and converse with other women. Being quite open that if the marriage is over and even though I do not want that I am looking ahead. I was very express that if after all of the hell she was insisting on separation or divorce, I was going to start the process of meeting new people. She called my bluff. Only, what? After 14 years of an essentially affectionless marriage that I nevertheless wanted to keep and improve and live out our days together, as much as I would have wanted to I couldn't decide for her and if she was done (Done! Done! Done! So Done with You! I hate you and cannot wait to have you out of my life! as she would say and did repeated), I was going to put myself back together. And I thought that might include some new relationships. At least for recreation.

And then she comes back here and to our friends and to the parents of our children's friends and to our families and says can you beleive what Harken is doing? Cutting and pasting conversations from my email that are really pretty much along the lines of I don't know that I am ready for much of any of this yet, but I think I should start to meet people again. Yes, clipping that stuff with editorializing and sending it around the town. And I am like, what? I thought you said you hated me, wanted me out of your life, threw my things around, threatened me with legal proceedings if I did not leave, left on your own, pointedly went to counseling sessions of divorce and separation and made a bit of demonstration of it, engaged a divorce mediator, and I went thinking we were working on divorce and the entire session was AMU running on and on about all the things I had done that she was upset about and I said that process is over because you have repeatedly and consistently, forcefully and frighteningly insisted that it be over and over my stated preference that we not divorce but fix things but what in the end can I do, and we are now sorting out the future.

Shame on me. You are quite correct, Chap.


----------



## AMU

Interesting that the thread "So" that contained so much advice, most of which he didn't agree with and really exposed his drinking and the amount he was drinking was deleted because HB felt his identity was compromised. But all the other threads he initiated or commented on are there. If he was truly concerned about an identity compromise, he would have deleted his entire profile and all threads. Instead he deleted the threads that exposed his alcoholism. Feels like another form of deflection to me.

The girls and I had a very nice time on our weekend away at camp - great to get away from everything, including technology. One of my favorite things about this camp when my girls attend for two weeks in the summer. No TV, no internet, no cell phones - just cabins without heat, bathrooms in another building, a peaceful lake and lots of fun outdoor activities. Despite very cold weather and some rain, we had a great time.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> Interesting that the thread "So" that contained so much advice, most of which he didn't agree with and really exposed his drinking and the amount he was drinking was deleted because HB felt his identity was compromised. But all the other threads he initiated or commented on are there. If he was truly concerned about an identity compromise, he would have deleted his entire profile and all threads. Instead he deleted the threads that exposed his alcoholism. Feels like another form of deflection to me.
> 
> The girls and I had a very nice time on our weekend away at camp - great to get away from everything, including technology. One of my favorite things about this camp when my girls attend for two weeks in the summer. No TV, no internet, no cell phones - just cabins without heat, bathrooms in another building, a peaceful lake and lots of fun outdoor activities. Despite very cold weather and some rain, we had a great time.


Actually, it was out of sensitivity towards and respect for you and some others that the thread was taken down.


----------



## LongWalk

Hi AMU,

Harken did not cheat on you while you were away.

He is not running away from the truth about his substance abuse. Whether or not he will seek treatment is unclear. No one can know until he does it.

Start cleaning up the boxes. Book MC. Take up HappyMan's offer of counseling.


----------



## turnera

AMU, what did you do to make up to HB for what you did while you were cheating?


----------



## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> Actually, it was out of sensitivity towards and respect for you and some others that the thread was taken down.


Hopefully the last I will say on the deletion of the thread "So" is that I raised it with everyone who was reading well in advance and explained in that threat the reasons why, which were not at all as have been posited here. I greatly appreciated all of the contribution to that thread, respected the views, and was of two minds about taking it down. But it became easy as I considered my wife and her friends and ours and our children and their friends. I had hoped that would have come through. It was not about me or any sensitivity I might or might not have about being identified. Hell, half of you probably have been told or have figured out who I am. I exaggerate, but there are many. It's not a sensitivity I have for myself.


----------



## bfree

Now we're arguing about a deleted thread? If Harken wants to delete the thread he has every right to do so. Trust me, the volume of his alcohol consumption will not be forgotten by the veteran posters here on TAM. Enough already. There are more serious issues to be dealt with than some deleted thread. Geesh.


----------



## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> Now we're arguing about a deleted thread? If Harken wants to delete the thread he has every right to do so. Trust me, the volume of his alcohol consumption will not be forgotten by the veteran posters here on TAM. Enough already. There are more serious issues to be dealt with than some deleted thread. Geesh.


Thanks. I am certainly not asking for anything on that topic to be forgotten. The reasons stand as they are. And they have nothing to do with my avoidance or discomfort with any topic relating to myself. This is a funny place.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks. I am certainly not asking for anything on that topic to be forgotten. The reasons stand as they are. And they have nothing to do with my avoidance or discomfort with any topic relating to myself. *This is a funny place*.



Don't forget fickle, this place is definitely fickle as well.


----------



## clipclop2

a couple of things to think about with respect to when you are feeling nostalgic for your marriage. Remember the biochemistry of your body changes throughout the day and when certain body chemicals are low you are more likely to feel that longing. 

same thing goes for the times of day when you have more energy. Now with some excitement it comes from your drinking during the day. it will take a while of not drinking and not drinking consistently for your body chemistry to reach any sort of normalcy. so I certainly wouldn't recommend that you act on any of your extreme feeling and just try to go with your average feeling.

I have a ridiculously difficult time accepting that you love AMU. You have nothing good to say about her. you are mean and condescending and you snipe at everything she says.

my contention is that if you would quit drinking you would easily decide to give up your marriage if she is as you portray. 

my suspicion is that staying with her in this situation means that you don't have to change anything about your drinking because she puts up with it and your family is well aware of how you are and how you behave. New people might not like it so much and you have an ego that's pretty large and you like to make people think certain way about you. if for instance you started hanging out with your old flame on a regular basis she would learn that you drink too much entirely too much and that you have a problem that you drink to blackout. in fact I suspect that's why you hung out with her so long on that one day. It wasn't that you were late to see her it that you wanted to continue to drink with her. 

and see at the beginning of the relationship drinking Sheen's celebra Tori. She wouldn't notice right off the bat that you drink everyday and that you consume far too much alcohol. so keeping your distance from her preserves her impression of you as a cool guy who is funny and witty and not as a guy who's drunk.

but if you decided that you really wanted to pursue a relationship with her she would learn that you're drunk. And she might not like that. and you wouldn't like her not seeing you as the wonderful man that she thinks you are. 

so here's what I envision for your future. 

one you might stay with a mu and continue drinking on both of you be miserable 

2 the above and she might leave you 

3 you get sober and fix your marriage 

four you get sober and realize it's helpless and hopeless and you leave her to go on to have a good solid relationship with your daughters as well as a new person in your life 

Or 5 your marriage comes to an end and you keep your distance from a committed relationship because you don't want to get too close because they will learn that you aren't the swell guy that you portray and your relationship with your daughters is negatively impacted throughout the remainder of your short life 

look most people who have a bad habit and don't want to be charged for it end up being aloof and never having really close relationships. if you don't stop drinking and you get divorced you could end up alone by choice but really it so that you can be alone with your booze and not have to give it up. 

I don't think that you love your wife. I think that you love your booze. 

I'm also wondering whether you find your wife rules arbitrary because they are arbitrary or is it because you don't remember what she said in conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

so you are aware I use speech to text a lot so anything that doesn't make sense in terms of the word that was used to try to listen to the sound of the word instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> a couple of things to think about with respect to when you are feeling nostalgic for your marriage. Remember the biochemistry of your body changes throughout the day and when certain body chemicals are low you are more likely to feel that longing.
> 
> same thing goes for the times of day when you have more energy. Now with some excitement it comes from your drinking during the day. it will take a while of not drinking and not drinking consistently for your body chemistry to reach any sort of normalcy. so I certainly wouldn't recommend that you act on any of your extreme feeling and just try to go with your average feeling.
> 
> I have a ridiculously difficult time accepting that you love AMU. You have nothing good to say about her. you are mean and condescending and you snipe at everything she says.
> 
> my contention is that if you would quit drinking you would easily decide to give up your marriage if she is as you portray.
> 
> my suspicion is that staying with her in this situation means that you don't have to change anything about your drinking because she puts up with it and your family is well aware of how you are and how you behave. New people might not like it so much and you have an ego that's pretty large and you like to make people think certain way about you. if for instance you started hanging out with your old flame on a regular basis she would learn that you drink too much entirely too much and that you have a problem that you drink to blackout. in fact I suspect that's why you hung out with her so long on that one day. It wasn't that you were late to see her it that you wanted to continue to drink with her.
> 
> and see at the beginning of the relationship drinking Sheen's celebra Tori. She wouldn't notice right off the bat that you drink everyday and that you consume far too much alcohol. so keeping your distance from her preserves her impression of you as a cool guy who is funny and witty and not as a guy who's drunk.
> 
> but if you decided that you really wanted to pursue a relationship with her she would learn that you're drunk. And she might not like that. and you wouldn't like her not seeing you as the wonderful man that she thinks you are.
> 
> so here's what I envision for your future.
> 
> one you might stay with a mu and continue drinking on both of you be miserable
> 
> 2 the above and she might leave you
> 
> 3 you get sober and fix your marriage
> 
> four you get sober and realize it's helpless and hopeless and you leave her to go on to have a good solid relationship with your daughters as well as a new person in your life
> 
> Or 5 your marriage comes to an end and you keep your distance from a committed relationship because you don't want to get too close because they will learn that you aren't the swell guy that you portray and your relationship with your daughters is negatively impacted throughout the remainder of your short life
> 
> look most people who have a bad habit and don't want to be charged for it end up being aloof and never having really close relationships. if you don't stop drinking and you get divorced you could end up alone by choice but really it so that you can be alone with your booze and not have to give it up.
> 
> I don't think that you love your wife. I think that you love your booze.
> 
> I'm also wondering whether you find your wife rules arbitrary because they are arbitrary or is it because you don't remember what she said in conversation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, clipclop, there is just a lot in here that is factually incorrect. I am doing the bedtime routine now with teethbrushing and tucking in. Then I have to come back down to jar the sauces I made this evening after slaying a few dragons. Two of the girls helped me harvest onions, oregano, garlic, tomatoes, and basil for the sauces we made and which were dinner with pasta I picked up on the way home for all for plus AMU. They were enthusiastic and grabbed a few carrots and green beans that I cleaned and have not used yet. AMU scooped it from the pot as I combined the sauce with pasta. I think some here should step back a little from their judgment. Yeah, I had a big day on the professional front today. Just stellar and lucrative, even though that is not really what gets me going. I woke up feeling lousy as I have picked up what has been going around. Made breakfasts and snacks for everyone. Then slayed the dragon.

The girls beg for me to tuck in and stay with them. AMU is bristly and they use less kind descriptives. When I arrived home today AMU was in the master bed refusing to come down and I asked the kids what was up and it came from a discussion, not fight, we had this morning. In response to something she had said to me about my temper, I asked then why do the girls say to me you are nice and mommy is mean. Not once in a while. That is rote. All the time. AMU is a good person and a good mom and I think we are a good family and should resolve these things. Anyway, before I came home, it seems she lost it and said to the girls that you think daddy is nice and I am mean so deal with things for yourselves and she sat in bed.

So we went to the garden, then came inside. We made dinner. Watched a movie. And AMU is out dealing with shopping stuff at the mall, which is fine.


----------



## Harken Banks

Also, and on the topic, Caper found the "So" thread by cutting and pasting into Google from an email AMU had written to Caper's wife. The email was not intended kindly. Yep, that is how that started. Step back, take a breath.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken Banks said:


> Well, clipclop, there is just a lot in here that is factually incorrect. I am doing the bedtime routine now with teethbrushing and tucking in. Then I have to come back down to jar the sauces I made this evening after slaying a few dragons. Two of the girls helped me harvest onions, oregano, garlic, tomatoes, and basil for the sauces we made and which were dinner with pasta I picked up on the way home for all for plus AMU.
> 
> *No one says you do not interact with your daughters. You are careful to be a good father because you love them. But you are also observing yourself to make certain that you are managing your work and parenting. You do not have energy left to relate to AMU.
> 
> If and when you quit drinking, you will have to do everything sober. That will a challenge in and of itself. Falling asleep on your daughter's beds while reading is charming and they feel close to you. But you should be sleeping with AMU.*
> 
> They were enthusiastic and grabbed a few carrots and green beans that I cleaned and have not used yet. AMU scooped it from the pot as I combined the sauce with pasta. I think some here should step back a little from their judgment. Yeah, I had a big day on the professional front today. Just stellar and lucrative, even though that is not really what gets me going. I woke up feeling lousy as I have picked up what has been going around. Made breakfasts and snacks for everyone. Then slayed the dragon.
> 
> *Who is getting along with the girls has become part of a competition. Not healthy.*
> 
> The girls beg for me to tuck in and stay with them. AMU is bristly and they use less kind descriptives. When I arrived home today AMU was in the master bed refusing to come down and I asked the kids what was up and it came from a discussion, not fight, we had this morning. In response to something she had said to me about my temper, I asked then why do the girls say to me you are nice and mommy is mean. Not once in a while. That is rote. All the time. AMU is a good person and a good mom and I think we are a good family and should resolve these things. Anyway, before I came home, it seems she lost it and said to the girls that you think daddy is nice and I am mean so deal with things for yourselves and she sat in bed.
> 
> *AMU may be trying not to display anger. Do you think she takes the rageaholic issue seriously?
> 
> If AMU is emotionally abusing your daughters, you need to stop it. She needs IC and the girls probably need professional help, too.
> 
> You need to be sober to deal with this. And as ClipClop and others have noted, once you are sober, you will have to evaluate your relationship. If you are using alcohol to tough your way through each painful day, then you are enabling AMU's dysfunctional behavior by drinking the problem away.*
> 
> So we went to the garden, then came inside. We made dinner. Watched a movie. And AMU is out dealing with shopping stuff at the mall, which is fine.
> 
> *So you are happy that she is out buying junk you don't need?*


----------



## Harken Banks

I have energy to relate to and with AMU. I work very hard on that. With discouraging return.

AMU has a fantastic reserve of anger. Terrifying. That is where the problem between us is.

I agree on the bit about competition. It was part of a response and not appropriate. The reality is that the girls love their mom but would rather be with dad. AMU raises this as a point of argument frequently. She likes to put me down, criticize me, tell me about the ways in which I am not measuring up, the things she will tell me her friends and family say about me. Daily. It's not fun. For a long time it was really hurtful, which was the intent. Oh my gosh, everyone we know thinks I am a jerk. All your family and all your friends. It was upsetting, and still is. "Even my dad; even my brothers; even xxx; even xxy; even and on and on and, say this about you." It's one of her tactics and tools. Recently, I try to take it for what it is. It took me a long time to recognize that for what it is. It continues to this day. It's a really cruel thing. Although it has caused me a lot of self doubt and self-hate, recently I try not to spend a lot of time with it.

Here rage is serious. You heard that from a third party who came in unsolicited and as someone who with is wife is historically AMU's friend. There was no equivocation. It's a frightening thing.

Yes, yes, and no.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Anyway, before I came home, it seems she lost it and said to the girls that you think daddy is nice and I am mean so deal with things for yourselves and she sat in bed.


AMU, is this true? What's YOUR version? If you did this, what's your excuse? (and yes, I'm calling you out for locking yourself away from your kids) I'd like to know if you have a valid reason for this.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Also, and on the topic, Caper found the "So" thread by cutting and pasting into Google from an email AMU had written to Caper's wife. The email was not intended kindly. Yep, that is how that started. Step back, take a breath.


So...you deleted your thread (in which you were taking a pounding) to hide from AMU the fact that Caper was posting (if this person really WAS posting), and yet here you are discussing Caper, his wife, AND the nasty email AMU sent.

Uh, ok. That makes sense.


----------



## clipclop2

Too bad you ignored what I wrote so you could spin more Harken Banks lore.

Brave, brave Sir Robin,,,,


----------



## clipclop2

I'm a gardener too by the way. And I can still be an awful ***** and my kids still love me. It doesn't change the facts of who I am or what I do. The resilience and desire of the rest of the world do not absolve us from our sins. But hiding behind them shows the depth to which we will stoop to protect ourselves.

Man up old boy. Face the real you.


----------



## AMU

I don't respond to so much of what HB writes because it is so twisted and incorrect to almost be funny. Yet I think he honestly believes what he writes. I was absolutely not holed up in the master bedroom sulking. I was here when the two little ones got off the bus at 3:40. I went and picked up our 10 year old from play practice and we all grabbed Starbucks before I came home to finish my work day. HB had gone downtown for lunch with friends today and stayed at the office and about 30 min before he came home, our 7 year old got into an argument with her sister in the kitchen calling her a b=tch and I sent her to her room for 15 minutes. She was very angry with me and when she came out, she came into my room where I was organizing some stuff and said she was going to call her dad to complain. She called HB and found that he was almost home and went running downstairs when he walked in the door. I wasn't putting HB down, I had just disciplined our child in a very appropriate manner. Not by yelling at her but by sending her to her room. 

This morning I got a call from HB when I was returning from dropping off our 10 and 12 year olds at school telling me that this same 7 year old was being impossible. That is typical - the kids act out and he calls me because he is so frustrated and doesn't know what to do. What hasn't been said here is that our entire 13 years as parents we have a good cop, bad cop situation where HB will not say no to the girls. We have experienced a lot of behavior issues as a result. Our 7 year thinks she can yell and scream and be awful because HB cannot stand the girls being loud or upset and gives in every time. When we were in the car with the girls for the first 4 days of our summer vacation, he lost it 4-5 times each day, literally screaming at the kids for bickering, etc. He scared our 12 year old so much that she cried for an hour because she was so hurt that daddy, who rarely says no told her how awful they all were. This morning he was at his wits end with our third daughter and called me (as if I was going to be able to do something when driving home from the school).

Anyway, yes, I went to the mall tonight (after taking care of the girls for several hours). And no I wasn't buying stuff. I spent some time last night and this evening going through six boxes from Lands Ends that had been stored at his parents house during our renovations that contained returns I had not taken care of. Three weeks ago I removed all of our boxes stored in his parents' basement for the past two years during our renovation and then flood and stacked them in our living room (he sent pictures of those boxes to some). We now have six fewer boxes of stuff in our living room. As many have suggested, I am taking action in removing boxes from the house. 

And now I'm sitting alone in our bed as he sleeps in our daughter's room once again. He keeps saying he doesn't have a bed which is ridiculous. I have never told him he couldn't sleep in our bed and there is nothing preventing him from sleeping here every night. He is the one who chooses to fall asleep/pass out in the kids' rooms every night. The clock has now struck midnight here on the east coast, so it is officially our 14th anniversary and he is passed out in our daughter's bed.


----------



## warlock07

turnera said:


> AMU, is this true? What's YOUR version? If you did this, what's your excuse? (and yes, I'm calling you out for locking yourself away from your kids) I'd like to know if you have a valid reason for this.


What the f*ck is this thread turning into ?

HB and AMU, this is really pathetic. You guys are making a laughing stock of yourselves. 

TAM is supposed to be an addon. Not your main source of support or for indulging daily drama with "He said, she did" stuff.

I am honestly embarrassed for you guys. And I don't think TAM is helping you except for making snides and accusations against one another. 

You guys have financial resources. Get some real world help.


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## clipclop2

AMU, what do you want to do? You are as much at fault for preserving the legend of Harken Banks as anyone else.

Your girls know the truth. You aren't protecting them.

If they can't have friends to the house I GUARANTEE YOU you are going to see this sadness and dysfunction in their lives.

TELL THEM TO SHOUT IT FROM THE MOUNTAINTOPS!

MOM IS A HOARDER

DAD IS A DRUNK

COME SEE!!!

do not isolate these innocent girls.

Do not make them protect you.

I'm calling you out on this right now.


You have zero idea what you are doing to them.


Zero.


Selfish parents.


Pathetic parents.


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## clipclop2

Hey all of the so called friends of our heros, call your local division of family services and help these kids. Affluence does not absolve abuse.


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## AMU

I am not abusing our children. They have friends and they have friends over. Our 10 year old is having a friend over Thurs before soccer and our 7 year old was trying to decide on a day this week to have a friend over after school as well. I would welcome social services to our house.


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## clipclop2

Argh. Pay attention. When daddy is passed out and mommy and daddy are telling duck you back and forth I really don't think you would like witnesses from the state.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



AMU said:


> I don't respond to so much of what HB writes because it is so twisted and incorrect to almost be funny. Yet I think he honestly believes what he writes. I was absolutely not holed up in the master bedroom sulking. I was here when the two little ones got off the bus at 3:40. I went and picked up our 10 year old from play practice and we all grabbed Starbucks before I came home to finish my work day. HB had gone downtown for lunch with friends today and stayed at the office and about 30 min before he came home, our 7 year old got into an argument with her sister in the kitchen calling her a b=tch and I sent her to her room for 15 minutes. She was very angry with me and when she came out, she came into my room where I was organizing some stuff and said she was going to call her dad to complain. She called HB and found that he was almost home and went running downstairs when he walked in the door. I wasn't putting HB down, I had just disciplined our child in a very appropriate manner. Not by yelling at her but by sending her to her room.
> 
> This morning I got a call from HB when I was returning from dropping off our 10 and 12 year olds at school telling me that this same 7 year old was being impossible. That is typical - the kids act out and he calls me because he is so frustrated and doesn't know what to do. What hasn't been said here is that our entire 13 years as parents we have a good cop, bad cop situation where HB will not say no to the girls. We have experienced a lot of behavior issues as a result. Our 7 year thinks she can yell and scream and be awful because HB cannot stand the girls being loud or upset and gives in every time. When we were in the car with the girls for the first 4 days of our summer vacation, he lost it 4-5 times each day, literally screaming at the kids for bickering, etc. He scared our 12 year old so much that she cried for an hour because she was so hurt that daddy, who rarely says no told her how awful they all were. This morning he was at his wits end with our third daughter and called me (as if I was going to be able to do something when driving home from the school).
> 
> Anyway, yes, I went to the mall tonight (after taking care of the girls for several hours). And no I wasn't buying stuff. I spent some time last night and this evening going through six boxes from Lands Ends that had been stored at his parents house during our renovations that contained returns I had not taken care of. Three weeks ago I removed all of our boxes stored in his parents' basement for the past two years during our renovation and then flood and stacked them in our living room (he sent pictures of those boxes to some). We now have six fewer boxes of stuff in our living room. As many have suggested, I am taking action in removing boxes from the house.
> 
> And now I'm sitting alone in our bed as he sleeps in our daughter's room once again. He keeps saying he doesn't have a bed which is ridiculous. I have never told him he couldn't sleep in our bed and there is nothing preventing him from sleeping here every night. He is the one who chooses to fall asleep/pass out in the kids' rooms every night. The clock has now struck midnight here on the east coast, so it is officially our 14th anniversary and he is passed out in our daughter's bed.


I'm not going to delete this.


----------



## AMU

warlock07 said:


> What the f*ck is this thread turning into ?
> 
> HB and AMU, this is really pathetic. You guys are making a laughing stock of yourselves.
> 
> TAM is supposed to be an addon. Not your main source of support or for indulging daily drama with "He said, she did" stuff.
> 
> I am honestly embarrassed for you guys. And I don't think TAM is helping you except for making snides and accusations against one another.
> 
> You guys have financial resources. Get some real world help.


For what it's worth, Warlock, I rarely post for exactly this reason (you might notice i have a whopping 40 posts in 2+ years). I don't want to get sucked up into this as I find this site very depressing. Last week I walked away from reading anything for days. I've come here to read occasionally for the past couple years not because I want to be here, but because it helps me see what my husband is thinking and feeling because he is very good with the written word and expresses himself in that way (he is very much an introvert and not a big talker at all).

If I answer a question I'm being snide and picking a fight and if I don't respond, I hear that "AMU rarely posts so we don't really know what is going on."

Clip Clop asked what I want and I want a husband that is willing to go through detox and make an honest attempt at working on our marriage. I'm ready to put in the effort.


----------



## clipclop2

And what if he is not.

He has said as much.

Are you willing to choose your daughters over your pathetic drama?

I don't think so but would love if you prove me wrong.

If he loves themso much he will figure out how to swing his addiction and their skiing. After all, it will protect his addiction!


----------



## warlock07

AMU said:


> For what it's worth, Warlock, I rarely post for exactly this reason (you might notice i have a whopping 40 posts in 2+ years). I don't want to get sucked up into this as I find this site very depressing. Last week I walked away from reading anything for days. I've come here to read occasionally for the past couple years not because I want to be here, but because it helps me see what my husband is thinking and feeling because he is very good with the written word and expresses himself in that way (he is very much an introvert and not a big talker at all).
> 
> If I answer a question I'm being snide and picking a fight and if I don't respond, I hear that "AMU rarely posts so we don't really know what is going on."
> 
> Clip Clop asked what I want and I want a husband that is willing to go through detox and make an honest attempt at working on our marriage. I'm ready to put in the effort.


AMU, FWIW, I think you throw enough gasoline when you post here that HB keeps defending about them in the next 20 pages. 


AMU, his major point was your career needing to take a backseat. What about it ?


----------



## clipclop2

She could give up her career and he would still pass at out night.

He stops drinking. She stops hoarding.

Home life becomes tolerable for the kids.

They can work out the rest when they stop being embarrassing and ridiculous.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> So...you deleted your thread (in which you were taking a pounding) to hide from AMU the fact that Caper was posting (if this person really WAS posting), and yet here you are discussing Caper, his wife, AND the nasty email AMU sent.
> 
> Uh, ok. That makes sense.


This is part of the ridiculousness here. How could anyone read that and think I invented Caper? Or that I deleted the thread after much public discussion for reasons of personal embarrassment? Turnera, you cling to accusatory and bizzare positions. And you're not the only one. It's just the most vocal are sometimes the most ridiculous and vice versa. And yet, for some reason you get internet traction. 

Clip clop, I don't love my wife, I love only booze? That's idiocy. And my ex girl friend who has been discussed ad infinitum here and about whom many a fancy theory has been strung is going learn and tire of my alcoholism and that will foul my secret plan of reuniting? Seriously? That's what you come here to write? God, your life must be boring.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> Clip Clop asked what I want and I want a husband that is willing to go through detox and make an honest attempt at working on our marriage. I'm ready to put in the effort.


Well, we seem to be headed in the direction again of trying to work through this. This "if, then" stuff quite frankly does not warm my heart. I have had that for 14 years. It is predicated and conditioned on the ways in which I have to change in order to be worthy of respect or approval or love. And the conditions evolve more quickly that I adapt. This goes way back and relates to a number of issues that do not involve alcohol which seems to have become the sole and central issue in these discussions. Also, quite truthfully, AMU, I feel to some extent that if you had put forth effort of any discernible and sustained sort over the past 14 years, we would not be here today. That is not to say this is all on you or that this is conscious on your part. 

As for our family and home life, we have wonderful, kind, compassionate, funny, beautiful, talented, whip smart, and happy children. We have more turmoil than some households, to be sure. And AMU and I are aware of missteps we make. Hesitate a moment before casting that stone.

And I am less garrulous than AMU, but quite handy with the spoken word as well. Verbal jousting is no small part of how I make my living. And entertain and amuse, express respect, affection, and some other things as well. I just wanted to avoid the idea that I might be some kind of a savant who could only speak through a key board.


----------



## LongWalk

I appreciate ClipClop as a poster, however I disagree that this exchange on TAM is petty or embarrassing. Therapy is supposed to based on honest discussion. This discourse is frankly evolving.

Spinning things online for the peanut gallery goes on all day everyday on Facebook, Linkedin, Instagram, twitter, etc. Right now this is real time documentation of dysfunction.

Harken this not just about drinking as the cause of all evil. Alcohol is great in the right situation. But not yours. For as AMU depicts it is is a disease. Is AMU worried about what will happen to you if you divorce. Will you drink even more to drown your sorrow?

Will you be able to function as a 50% custody dad?

I have a garden in which I erected a beautiful stone bench with hops hanging over it, but that does not change the fact that I still have more than half of my potatoes in the earth unharvested. The autumn rains will soon start to rot them. That is another truth.

We choose the truths that are flattering to us and even when they are substantial we do ourselves a disservice by emphasizing them as the pipes leak and mice breed.

Harken you portray the beauty and harmony of what is good. Resolve to protect it by quitting booze and getting back in the marital bed.


----------



## warlock07

Anyone remember Dailygrind? HB, look him up.

Why are you sleeping in the kids room ?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

AMU said:


> I am not abusing our children.


They ARE being abused if you are yelling and screaming all over the house, wether it's directed at them or not. 

Harken at least chooses to stay and put up with it, your children however, do not.

Verbal abuse is called abusive because that's what it is.....abusive.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> I appreciate ClipClop as a poster, however I disagree that this exchange on TAM is petty or embarrassing. Therapy is supposed to based on honest discussion. This discourse is frankly evolving.
> 
> Spinning things online for the peanut gallery goes on all day everyday on Facebook, Linkedin, Instagram, twitter, etc. Right now this is real time documentation of dysfunction.
> 
> Harken this not just about drinking as the cause of all evil. Alcohol is great in the right situation. But not yours. For as AMU depicts it is is a disease. Is AMU worried about what will happen to you if you divorce. Will you drink even more to drown your sorrow?
> 
> Will you be able to function as a 50% custody dad?
> 
> I have a garden in which I erected a beautiful stone bench with hops hanging over it, but that does not change the fact that I still have more than half of my potatoes in the earth unharvested. The autumn rains will soon start to rot them. That is another truth.
> 
> We choose the truths that are flattering to us and even when they are substantial we do ourselves a disservice by emphasizing them as the pipes leak and mice breed.
> 
> Harken you portray the beauty and harmony of what is good. Resolve to protect it by quitting booze and getting back in the marital bed.


OK. Thank you.

Still, some of the exchange is badgering and silly. Turnera is stuck on the meme that I am a liar who invited Caper as a wingman. It doesn't help the conversation. Clip clop writes that I don't love my wife and I'm whiling away the hours until I can be with an old girl friend, but then that will sour when she learns I am an alcoholic. It's just not helpful for anyone to keep up with this nonsense. In fact, it is worse than not helpful because it's written with such certitude and righteousness and tenacity that we start talking about it.


----------



## Caper

Hi AMU. You are probably wondering what I said in the deleted thread, if you didn't read it already. Just so there are no doubts, I'll sum it up.

This is my recipe for saving this marriage:


HB stops drinking, goes to detox, joins AA
HB stops the sh!t on match.com
HB lets go of the EA and never mentions it again. Bury it. Forget it. The sentence has been served.
AMU quits her job. She is smart and experienced, she can easily get another one someday. Or if not quit, see about a prolonged leave of absence, like a year, and then decide. Sorry, but two high powered lawyers parenting 4 children isn't working. Obviously.
AMU stops hoarding. I'm sorry that word has really derogatory connotations, I don't mean it in a judgmental way, but that's what the situation is, and you know I have seen it with my own eyes. It's not just a mess, it's not temporary. There is help for that.
AMU gets help for anger management.
You both clean up the house
You both go to MC
You both agree to be nice and polite to each other.
Intimacy resumes

You can both take it or leave it. But what do I know, I have only been happily married for 16 years.



HB said:


> This "if, then" stuff quite frankly does not warm my heart


Well that's real life. Love is conditional. There is no fairy tale. You've attached conditions to your return to the marriage too.

turnera, I am not HB. AMU can probably vouch for this. I don't know how to prove it to you, but if you want you can PM me.

AMU, HB, I am only doing this because I care. Real friends tell you when your fly is down. As far as I know, most everyone else has thrown up their hands and turned their backs.


----------



## clipclop2

actually I do not suggest that you'll be with your ex-girlfriend ever. 

I'm not sure that you know how to read Harken .


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> actually I do not suggest that you'll be with your ex-girlfriend ever.
> 
> I'm not sure that you know how to read Harken .


Fair enough. I re-read. You did drop that thought in, but did not say it would happen.

And you have the facts of that day wrong. I was late. I was to see her late morning to say hi and have a bloody mary. I was about an hour later than our scheduled time for reasons described in these pages. The first overture from AMU in many months, maybe 4 or 6 made out of the blue and as a complete surprise to me as I was walking out the door (we were not sharing a bed at the time as the bed had become her office and I was made clearly instructed I was not welcome, not even to push papers aside to lie down or to use the wardrobe to get dressed to go while she was working -you'd think I was making this up, but I am not, in fact she led me to the guest room because there was no room in the master bed for anything other than her and her work). Still, it was nice. I have never said no to her and won't while we remain married.

And then I was late. This friend was in town for a short time and catching up with a lot of people. I figured I had probably screwed up her day and plans and felt bad and offered lunch as it had become later than lunch time while we waited for our drinks. The rest is all here. We talked about what had happened with my best friend's first marriage which was to her best friend. She ended up sleeping with her boss and everyone else in town and he was broken but recovered quite nicely. He is now a famous sports agent/lawyer with a beautiful wife and family. He travels way more than he would like and has to make more TV and media appearances than he would like, but his ship really came in. We talked about what had happened to teachers and other friends in the 10 years I had been away and lost touch before coming back. Then we walked around the waterfront, still talking about that sort of stuff. The guy she met on the plane home, her sister and mine and what they were doing. It was nice but I had this ball of tension and fear growing inside me as I knew when I came home I would be asked where I was and I would tell honestly and it would be unpleasant. And that is exactly what happened. And AMU has all the contemporaneous correspondence and credit card and other records to confirm that is exactly what happened. Those receipts also show what was ordered. It was 3 bloody marys over about 5 hours. 2 at the intended let's get together to say hi spot, and another on the same waterfront around 5 or 6 when I finally said I am way too late and I have to go. But it was nice. As I have written, I consider her a friend. One of my closest from childhood and adolescence. We share countless good friends in common, some of our best. She is friends with my brother and sister. My sister and her family visited with her in CA when they were vacationing just a month or so ago. So, I know people here want to make this something dirty, but it's not.

And what do you know about my ego? Poke me in the eye with a stick and I'll poke back.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> I am not abusing our children. They have friends and they have friends over. Our 10 year old is having a friend over Thurs before soccer and our 7 year old was trying to decide on a day this week to have a friend over after school as well. I would welcome social services to our house.


Really? And how would you explain to social services why your kids beg you to stop fighting? Why they don't want to be around you because you're mean or angry or screaming?


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> I don't respond to so much of what HB writes because it is so twisted and incorrect to almost be funny. Yet I think he honestly believes what he writes. I was absolutely not holed up in the master bedroom sulking. I was here when the two little ones got off the bus at 3:40. I went and picked up our 10 year old from play practice and we all grabbed Starbucks before I came home to finish my work day. HB had gone downtown for lunch with friends today and stayed at the office and about 30 min before he came home, our 7 year old got into an argument with her sister in the kitchen calling her a b=tch and I sent her to her room for 15 minutes. She was very angry with me and when she came out, she came into my room where I was organizing some stuff and said she was going to call her dad to complain. She called HB and found that he was almost home and went running downstairs when he walked in the door. I wasn't putting HB down, I had just disciplined our child in a very appropriate manner. Not by yelling at her but by sending her to her room.


Thank you for explaining. It really helps.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> Anyway, yes, I went to the mall tonight (after taking care of the girls for several hours). And no I wasn't buying stuff. I spent* some time last night* and *this evening* going through *six boxes* from Lands Ends that had been stored at his parents house during our renovations that contained returns I had not taken care of. Three weeks ago I removed all of our boxes stored in his parents' basement for the past two years during our renovation and then flood and stacked them in our living room (he sent pictures of those boxes to some). We now have six fewer boxes of stuff in our living room. As many have suggested, I am taking action in removing boxes from the house.


Again, thank you for providing your side, so we can get a clearer picture. And I'm glad you're listening and addressing the boxes. 

Can we talk about this a little? What about the age-old adage to not buy something unless you are throwing something else out first? Could you agree to that? What about opening the boxes - I am going to assume that not ALL the boxes contain things you were supposed to return, because that would indicate an even MORE grave situation, that you could buy so many things and just never address them - and putting them in piles of keep, sell, or give away? Just opening boxes does nothing to eliminate the problem.

And finally, two nights to go through six boxes? Were they crates? I can open six mail-order boxes in under five minutes. AND unpack them. AND move them onto hangers in closets, put away in closets, or put on shelves. In five minutes. What's up with that?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Thank you for explaining. It really helps.


AMU and I have to work this stuff out. But the report from the girls as I came home was in fact that AMU had said to them that you say I'm mean and dad is nice so you deal with dad and she sat in bed. Being around dinner time, we set out to make dinner. AMU and I did not discuss any matter related to discipline. We didn't talk at all. She sat in bed.

She is quite more than welcome to participate and take issue with whatever she feels needs to be corrected.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> For what it's worth, Warlock, I rarely post for exactly this reason (you might notice i have a whopping 40 posts in 2+ years). I don't want to get sucked up into this as I find this site very depressing.
> 
> I'm ready to put in the effort.


That's great! So can you answer the question I asked yesterday? What exactly happened after your affair? What steps did you take to make up for it? Did you two just stop talking about it and pretend it didn't happen? Did you stop locking your phone? Did you two go to IC/MC for it? It would help us help you.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> When I arrived home today AMU was in the master bed *refusing to come down* and I asked the kids what was up and it came from *a discussion, not fight*, we had this morning. In response to something she had *said to me about my temper*, I asked then why do the girls say to me you are nice and mommy is mean. Not once in a while. That is rote. All the time. AMU is a good person and a good mom and I think we are a good family and should resolve these things. Anyway, before I came home, it seems *she lost it* and said to the girls that *you think daddy is nice and I am mean so deal with things for yourselves* and she sat in bed.





Harken Banks said:


> AMU and I have to work this stuff out. But the report from the girls as I came home was in fact that AMU had said to them that you say I'm mean and dad is nice so *you deal with dad and she sat in bed*. Being around dinner time, we set out to make dinner. AMU and I did not discuss any matter related to discipline. We didn't talk at all. She *sat in bed*.[as opposed to "refusing to come down"]
> 
> She is quite more than welcome to participate and take issue with whatever she feels needs to be corrected.


Sounds to me like you turned a molehill into a mountain. To suit you and make you appear the savior and her the monster. And now that you've been called out on it, you minimize what you said so that it seems you weren't being so histrionic. You have quite the gift at using words to color the tone of posts and shed lights (of your choosing) on both you AND her. Not sure if everyone else here is catching it, the extremely subtle way you do that. Did they teach a class on that in law school? I can imagine they did. As long as no one calls you out, you'll continue to pepper her thread with little nuggets of how deranged, dangerous, and downright mean AMU is, and slather on the oh-so-gentle "we set out to" descriptions of yourself. It's bordering on passive aggressive because to the untrained (non-writer) eye, there's nothing for you to be called out on and you can just say 'what? I said nothing wrong! why are you getting so upset?!' And passive aggressiveness is one of the most maddening personality types to deal with because if you try to gain an even hand, the PA person just backpedals, and tones down the words so that they don't look so inflammatory. 

Bottom line, not very conducive to getting a wife to want you in her bed.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Sounds to me like you turned a molehill into a mountain. To suit you and make you appear the savior and her the monster. And now that you've been called out on it, you minimize what you said so that it seems you weren't being so histrionic.


Sorry? What did I do? Can you explain?


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> This is part of the ridiculousness here. How could anyone read that and think I invented Caper? Or that I deleted the thread after much public discussion for reasons of personal embarrassment? Turnera, you cling to accusatory and bizzare positions. And you're not the only one.


Well, like I always say, if a room full of people sees a purple elephant and one person sees a grey one, it's a fair bet that elephant is purple.

I could go on an on about how I think you invented Caper (remember, I'm a writer, so I see all the nuances). But this is AMU's thread. 

So I'd just like to ask AMU - since YOU brought up Caper's posting - AMU, have you talked to this person (we can help you figure out who it is) and asked him if he posted in HB's thread? Will you?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Well, like I always say, if a room full of people sees a purple elephant and one person sees a grey one, it's a fair bet that elephant is purple.
> 
> I could go on an on about how I think you invented Caper (remember, I'm a writer, so I see all the nuances). But this is AMU's thread.
> 
> So I'd just like to ask AMU - since YOU brought up Caper's posting - AMU, have you talked to this person (we can help you figure out who it is) and asked him if he posted in HB's thread? Will you?


You are an idiot. That may get me banned. But you keep up with this ridiculous conspiracy theory and clearly from your comments and questions have not read this thread or Initial Foray but still want to chime in with snide judgment. It is not helping. It is way off base. I just don't know what to do with it. I ignore you and you don't go away. You just come back with more idiotic and uninformed arm chair judgment. 

You don't want to read the threads, fine, don't read the threads. I am not asking.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Sorry? What did I do? Can you explain?


At first painting us a picture of a mean angry mother locking herself away from her children for daring to call her mean - which SHE asserts was her giving her child punishment for misbehaving, which you failed to include - REFUSING to come down like a recalcitrant toddler...

and when she gave her version and disputed what you said, you toned down the rhetoric and instead used words like 'sat on the bed' as opposed to 'refused to come down.' Quite masterful, I must admit. And knowing that you're an introvert - and introverts often overcome that weakness by becoming masterfully strong with the written word - it makes all the more sense. You create a vision of your world in which you're the poor suffering fool, forced to exist in the evil kingdom of your raging wife, smoothly describing YOUR actions as tempered, logical, understanding, and giving, while describing HER actions (until you're called out on it) as raging, destructive, aggressive, selfish.

Now, do I believe she's some angel? Of course not. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. (but Caper sure made your case for you, didn't he?  )

Which is why I try to weed through the self-aggrandizement on both sides to see the REAL actions not seen through either of your filters.


----------



## Gabriel

Great, you got him banned. Harken, I believe, actually needs this place as an outlet. I'm actually kind of worried about him without one.

Yes, we are partly here to hold his feet to the fire so he can find his way to better his situation, but in the end, first and foremost, he's here for help. 

Tunera, I appreciate you trying to dig into the issues, but you have to realize when you are pressing someone's buttons too many times.

Hopefully, it's a short ban and he can come back soon.


----------



## turnera

You're right. I didn't intend to get him banned. But maybe he will seek professional help if he doesn't have this place to keep him from facing his reality. He was steadfastly refusing to look at any of his own actions, unless you call admitting to us that he drinks progress. Maybe AMU can now choose a different path. She's already taking some steps. And maybe that's what their marriage needs.

AMU (and HB), I apologize if I was responsible. But it's what I believe was necessary to get him to cut through the BS he protects himself with. I know firsthand how steadfastly alcoholics cling to their addiction and put ALL THEIR ENERGY into not having to address it. And on top of that, he continued to paint himself in the best possible light while demonizing AMU; and I know firsthand that you can't fix anything if all you're doing is defending yourself. Granted, I gave him plenty of reason to do that, but I hoped he would stop at some point. I guess I thought I could break through to him if he got fed up enough with me and just say 'so what should I do differently?'


----------



## Gabriel

I know you ultimately had good intentions, but HB will simply listen and argue, listen and argue. Nothing's changed in 2-3 years. At some point he was going to break when pressed too hard, too many times.

We all pressed to some extent. Maybe he'll reflect on all of this, put his hands up, and say, "I surrender. Help me."

Harken, looking forward to you coming back.


----------



## bfree

But ultimately we are all responsible for our own actions.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken has good intentions. He wants to be a good father, husband, attorney and coach. But he cannot while his addiction takes so much from him.

He knows this at some level. That is why he is struggling here.

He banned himself to rest.


----------



## 2xloser

LongWalk said:


> Harken has good intentions. He wants to be a good father, husband, attorney and coach.


Good intentions, no doubt. But thinking about this for a moment, I'd counter that HB's ACTIONS say he wants to be a good father, attorney, and coach.

I don't know that this holds true for "wants to be a good husband to AMU..."

I think he certainly feels he HAD been a good husband "for 14 years" as he's said many many times here, and there are pages and pages of debate on whether that was totally true or not here on TAM. 

But the stalemate seems a bit stuck on this point of now going forward, doesn't it? "Wanting to be married" is a different statement than "wanting to be a good husband, and doing something about it", imho. 

I just feel like since the "So..." thread got deleted, there's a bit more fatalistic language in "but I tolerated and tried for 14 years", not a viewpoint of taking today and looking forward.

Again, just my 2 cents.

And how cool would it be if they could both stop, acctually hear the caring, look at themselves in the mirror, throw up their hands and arms around each other and actually both TRY at the same time? Whether it worked or not, would it not be soooo good to see? (subtle hint, hint HB + AMU...) 

Because you're right LW, this has to be exhausting. It's exhausting just to read!


----------



## AMU

Sad time here right now. HB looked out the window and saw feathers everywhere and went out to find one of our chickens on the ground, alive, but in trouble. I wrapped her in a towel and held her until she died in my arms. Our 7 year old is home sick today, so she had to experience the ordeal as well. We've located 2 out of 3 of our remaining chickens as well as our two ducks and have been searching for our last chicken (a beautiful black Australorp named Mystery) - prayers and fingers crossed she is hunkered down somewhere safe, as we saw a fox leave the yard after we had been searching for quite some time, so that that darn predator is out in the middle of the day attacking the animals our entire family loves.


----------



## 2xloser

this is not the time to hear "You've got bigger problems than a dead chicken"... I'm sorry for you all for the loss. Hope you find the missing Mystery, your daughter recovers from sickness and trauma, and you all are ultimately somehow ok.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> Sad time here right now. HB looked out the window and saw feathers everywhere and went out to find one of our chickens on the ground, alive, but in trouble. I wrapped her in a towel and held her until she died in my arms. Our 7 year old is home sick today, so she had to experience the ordeal as well. We've located 2 out of 3 of our remaining chickens as well as our two ducks and have been searching for our last chicken (a beautiful black Australorp named Mystery) - prayers and fingers crossed she is hunkered down somewhere safe, as we saw a fox leave the yard after we had been searching for quite some time, so that that darn predator is out in the middle of the day attacking the animals our entire family loves.


Oh, I can't imagine.  I'm sorry. I backed over my cat once, and I had to wrap him up and rush him to the vet, but he didn't make it. Such a horrible feeling, watching your animal die. I hope your daughter's ok.


----------



## Gabriel

Sometimes an event that creates mutual despair can be a bonding experience. Best of luck finding your remaining animals.


----------



## happyman64

Maybe I missed it but did anybody wish you two a "Happy Anniversary"?

Then 

*Happy Anniversary!*

14 years is great. But what I really hope is for you two to start working together and loving each other.

But before that can happen you have to love yourselves.

Do me one favor. Tonight.

Both of you stand in front of a mirror. Look at yourselves.

Then turn and face each other. Look at each other.

Respect each other. And try to love each other.

Then make a plan for the next 14 years.....

Together.

Now get in your bed HB. Nice job getting banned my friend. :scratchhead:

HM


----------



## wmn1

Gabriel said:


> Great, you got him banned. Harken, I believe, actually needs this place as an outlet. I'm actually kind of worried about him without one.
> 
> Yes, we are partly here to hold his feet to the fire so he can find his way to better his situation, but in the end, first and foremost, he's here for help.
> 
> Tunera, I appreciate you trying to dig into the issues, but you have to realize when you are pressing someone's buttons too many times.
> 
> Hopefully, it's a short ban and he can come back soon.



I agree Gabriel. Turnera got him banned and I think she was a little out of line here and hopefully the moderators see this at some point. 

I do agree with her that the situation with HB and his wife is screwed up and HB isn't perfectly innocent in it but AMU is the one who stepped out and the two can't be equated.

AMU seems to be making an honest effort to R and HB is not being productive. Either s*** or get off the pot at some point.

I wish them both the best


----------



## wmn1

AMU said:


> Sad time here right now. HB looked out the window and saw feathers everywhere and went out to find one of our chickens on the ground, alive, but in trouble. I wrapped her in a towel and held her until she died in my arms. Our 7 year old is home sick today, so she had to experience the ordeal as well. We've located 2 out of 3 of our remaining chickens as well as our two ducks and have been searching for our last chicken (a beautiful black Australorp named Mystery) - prayers and fingers crossed she is hunkered down somewhere safe, as we saw a fox leave the yard after we had been searching for quite some time, so that that darn predator is out in the middle of the day attacking the animals our entire family loves.



time to take it out


----------



## AMU

happyman64 said:


> Maybe I missed it but did anybody wish you two a "Happy Anniversary"?
> 
> Then
> 
> *Happy Anniversary!*
> 
> 14 years is great. But what I really hope is for you two to start working together and loving each other.
> 
> But before that can happen you have to love yourselves.
> 
> Do me one favor. Tonight.
> 
> Both of you stand in front of a mirror. Look at yourselves.
> 
> Then turn and face each other. Look at each other.
> 
> Respect each other. And try to love each other.
> 
> Then make a plan for the next 14 years.....
> 
> Together.
> 
> Now get in your bed HB. Nice job getting banned my friend. :scratchhead:
> 
> HM


Thanks, HM!


----------



## Chaparral

wmn1 said:


> I agree Gabriel. Turnera got him banned and I think she was a little out of line here and hopefully the moderators see this at some point.
> 
> I do agree with her that the situation with HB and his wife is screwed up and HB isn't perfectly innocent in it but AMU is the one who stepped out and the two can't be equated.
> 
> AMU seems to be making an honest effort to R and HB is not being productive. Either s*** or get off the pot at some point.
> 
> I wish them both the best


As far as the record goes , Harken stepped out several times while still married. While I agree with those that condone dating when divorce is filed, Harken went on dating sites and went on dates with several women including physical contact while still married, living at home with AMU, and no one actually starting the divorce process if I remember correctly. He has been given a pass on this by most here. The jury is still out on his alledged EA too.


----------



## turnera

As far as HB was concerned, as he freely admitted, as soon as she said the words I don't want to be with you, he went hunting.


----------



## wmn1

Chaparral said:


> As far as the record goes , Harken stepped out several times while still married. While I agree with those that condone dating when divorce is filed, Harken went on dating sites and went on dates with several women including physical contact while still married, living at home with AMU, and no one actually starting the divorce process if I remember correctly. He has been given a pass on this by most here. The jury is still out on his alledged EA too.



True. I forgot about that. This thread has been so long and sprawling that details got lost. My apologies to AMU.


----------



## 2xloser

fwiw, I think we're still looking in the past and it's not helpful anymore. When there's so much water under this proverbial bridge the only helpful view now is forward-looking. Hundreds and hundreds of "he said, she said, but he meant, but she didn't mean" posts is still going nowhere. 

Clean slate, fresh start, new day, and actions not words. 
HB said it himself -- "just be nice to each other".
Start there, but do it all of the time, in every spoken or written word. And then go into overdrive on actions. All of them.
Onward!

Pretty please. 

For the girls.
For Mystery.
For AMU+HB.


----------



## Chaparral

2xloser said:


> Good intentions, no doubt. But thinking about this for a moment, I'd counter that HB's ACTIONS say he wants to be a good father, attorney, and coach.
> 
> I don't know that this holds true for "wants to be a good husband to AMU..."
> 
> I think he certainly feels he HAD been a good husband "for 14 years" as he's said many many times here, and there are pages and pages of debate on whether that was totally true or not here on TAM.
> 
> But the stalemate seems a bit stuck on this point of now going forward, doesn't it? "Wanting to be married" is a different statement than "wanting to be a good husband, and doing something about it", imho.
> 
> I just feel like since the "So..." thread got deleted, there's a bit more fatalistic language in "but I tolerated and tried for 14 years", not a viewpoint of taking today and looking forward.
> 
> Again, just my 2 cents.
> 
> And how cool would it be if they could both stop, acctually hear the caring, look at themselves in the mirror, throw up their hands and arms around each other and actually both TRY at the same time? Whether it worked or not, would it not be soooo good to see? (subtle hint, hint HB + AMU...)
> 
> Because you're right LW, this has to be exhausting. It's exhausting just to read!


I've skipped forward as this hread has become very hard to take. Last I knew Harken had still not copped to drink the bottle of Jack. Constantly refering to the wine bottle, he thought he was making a fool of everyone here. Or worse, he's a totally deluisional drunk. That could have been the most bizarre exchange I've seen here.

If Harken is drinking even a fraction of what he is accused of, he's an out and out drunk, an addict. Since he pretends anyone that calls him out is illiterate, won't read, makes things up, is an idiot, has an anti alchohol agenda, etc. Its painfully obvious he's either a drunk or this whole thread is fake.

My guess is the frat party drinking has matured into a funtioning adult alcholoic. He thinks he has every thing under control and AMU is the monster. But this is exactly whta most drunks do.

He refuses to acknowledge this, what addict does. In divorce he would probably fail a court ordered psychological examination and only be given supervised visitation.

I may be totally off but Harken's posts are illogical.

Getting banned is par for the course. Its scary how the aggregete mind here is normally dead on in its conclusions.


----------



## warlock07

AMU, what about the job?


----------



## AMU

warlock07 said:


> AMU, what about the job?


Some people seem to think that I should quit my job, yet it helps support our family and the activities we like to do and provides me with an enormous amount of flexibility for the kids. HB and I discussed after every baby whether I could stay home. Every time he worked the numbers and decided it would be too tight. We live in this very expensive house by the ocean because it was his dream. And we truly have poured most of our money into it. There isn’t extra money right now and it isn’t even finished. He keeps talking about a place at the mountain (for the past 11 years we have stayed with his parents each weekend, as they have a very large condo that sleeps a ton of folks, although a fairly small common space), but we can barely afford our current house after the renovations that aren't yet done and I mean that very honestly. He makes it out to be all rosy and we’re perfectly fine, but it’s not and without my income a ton would change.

And the first and ONLY time HB suggested that I quit my job and stay home was in August of 2012 – at the same time he said he wasn't sure he wanted to be married, was refusing to go to marriage counseling, etc. Since then, divorce seems like a very realistic possibility. And I’d be giving up a great job with pay I won’t be able to replicate should I need to support our girls and myself (because I telecommute, my salary is based on my company's home office, not our current city where salaries are significantly lower). All our health benefits are and have been through my employer as well and I would lose six weeks of vacation per year that I have earned with 17 years of service.

Plus I lose all the flexibility that my current job allows – I take the kids to every doctor’s appt, I take them to/pick them up from almost all of their after school activities, I do the majority of the day to day kid stuff. I also get a ton of personal fulfillment from my job - I love what I do and feel like I'm making a real impact. In my own opinion, it would be downright stupid to give up an income and way to support myself and the kids right now with our future so much up in the air.

I have certainly made sacrifices for our relationship. I moved halfway across the country away from my family, all of whom I am very close to, to marry HB. I gave up a significant promotion at the time, because my employer said I could work remotely, but not at the higher level. Twelve years later (Aug 2012), I was offered that same level position and was thrilled. I had worked very hard and earned the trust of management to be given the opportunity to be a remote director - definitely outside the norm. Not only did HB not congratulate me - that was the one and only time he asked me to quit my job and stay home. When I had suggested it and wanted to see if that was an option, he always said it was something we couldn't afford. I have not traveled more nor have I worked longer hours in this new role - I have a significantly larger team so I've learned to delegate more and focus instead on the bigger picture issues.

HB criticized my participation in outside/volunteer activities (I've spent years on the board of the Junior League, recently spent two years on the board of our elementary PTO since three of our girls were in the school, was a trained Girl Scout leader, etc. The last 1.5 years I've given up all outside activities except volunteering occasionally in the girls' classrooms, while at the same time supporting HB is his desire and time away coaching soccer and skiing.


----------



## warlock07

People say that love is blind. You both are at the opposite end of that spectrum. Both of you attribute malice to what could actually be stupidity or thoughtlessness. 

You know why he wants you to quit the job, right ? It is not if you keep the job and totally neglect him vs quit the job and everything turns out ok. 

Asking you to quit the job is the wrong question. The actual question is about you to put more effort into the marriage. 

You say that you want to put more effort.



> I'm ready to put in the effort.


What exactly are you willing to do ? You had the affair. You lied to his face for several months. You are more responsible for the situation than he is. Something's gotta give, you know ?(He should also do his own bit about the match.com drama!! They don't cancel out one another )

Spend more time together ?

Be more intimate with him 

Dealing with anger ?

Learning to respect one another "for real" ?

The gestures is a grand one.


----------



## LongWalk

Turnera did not bait Harken into breaking the rules. He called her a name, altering the moderators to his infraction. HB is verbally gifted. He knew what he was doing. Harken is irritated by Turnera but he did not spew out intense dislike. He is not a hateful person. That is one of the things that keeps AMU around.

But Harken is giving up on himself by trying to gain permission to drink. AMU wants him to dry out. 

AMU,

If Harken were to quit drinking for a year, do you think he could drink socially in the future and be responsible? For example, could he drink a glass of wine at Christmas dinner and have a cognac afterwards and then leave it alone afterwards?

It is great that you keep domestic fowl. Store bought eggs don't come close to what free ranging hens lay.

Right now is not the time for quitting jobs. The goal should be to get professional help.

Harken,

Start going to AA meetings. Ms GP is a pharmacist who goes to NA because she stole opiates. Arguably she would never have cheated or walked away, but for her addiction. She loved her kids but she could not reach them. After rehab she and GutPunch rebuilt their marriage.

One of the key reasons that you need to accept sobriety is to have the strength to help AMU. Don't you think she will soften once she starts to believe that you are no longer dependent. Won't she be more likely to curb the rageoholic?

Harken,

Do you play squash? Wall climb? You need something that will take your mind 100% away from thinking about your troubles.

You're by the ocean. Can you swim a mile each day?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



warlock07 said:


> People say that love is blind. You both are at the opposite end of that spectrum. Both of you attribute malice to what could actually be stupidity or thoughtlessness.
> 
> You know why he wants you to quit the job, right ? It is not if you keep the job and totally neglect him vs quit the job and everything turns out ok.
> 
> Asking you to quit the job is the wrong question. The actual question is about you to put more effort into the marriage.
> 
> You say that you want to put more effort.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly are you willing to do ? You had the affair. You lied to his face for several months. You are more responsible for the situation than he is. Something's gotta give, you know ?(He should also do his own bit about the match.com drama!! They don't cancel out one another )
> 
> Spend more time together ?
> 
> Be more intimate with him
> 
> Dealing with anger ?
> 
> Learning to respect one another "for real" ?
> 
> The gestures is a grand one.


I think the biggest thing for a WS to sacrifice after an affair is power. There has to be a noticeable and definite shift toward the BS. I don't see AMU as one to give up lots of control. I think she'd find it very difficult doing that for any length of time. I'd love to know when Harken's drinking got to its current unhealthy level. Was it despondency or resentment over AMU's lack of effort that drove Harken to drink more than is reasonable? I'd be curious to hear from AMU as to what steps she took, what sacrifices she made during the early stages of R. And then I'd love to hear Harken's response and what other steps he considers necessary that he never saw.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> One of the key reasons that you need to accept sobriety is to have the strength to help AMU. Don't you think she will soften once she starts to believe that you are no longer dependent. Won't she be more likely to curb the rageoholic?


Especially given that alcoholism is her personal hell, from childhood. It's like a husband of a victim of gang rape making her have sex with him and his buddies every night. Every time she sees him drinking, it hurts her. Yet she stays.

I'm not giving AMU a pass at all. She has a LOT of issues to address, and I assume she's going to IC for it. Right, AMU? I'm just pointing out that this particular transgression - drinking - is probably what would hurt her the most. Yet he won't give it up.


----------



## clipclop2

seriously. If any of you were to put yourself in AMU's position would you quit your job for HB just as he is now?

He is every bit as much of a cheater as she is. In fact he's worse because he did it cruelly and threw it in her face. 

There's a good reason that neither will give up anything for the other. There is no trust and contrary to what they say there is no love. 

The more Harkin Banks writest the more I see him as anything but charming. He is manipulative. He uses words to obfuscate. It's all sleight of mouth. 

If any of you would honestly quit your jobs for an arrogant drunk like Harken Banks I would be really surprised. I find it amazing that anyone would ask AMU to do this when I doubt any of you in the same situation would even consider it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AMU

bfree said:


> I think the biggest thing for a WS to sacrifice after an affair is power. There has to be a noticeable and definite shift toward the BS. I don't see AMU as one to give up lots of control. I think she'd find it very difficult doing that for any length of time. I'd love to know when Harken's drinking got to its current unhealthy level. Was it despondency or resentment over AMU's lack of effort that drove Harken to drink more than is reasonable? I'd be curious to hear from AMU as to what steps she took, what sacrifices she made during the early stages of R. And then I'd love to hear Harken's response and what other steps he considers necessary that he never saw.


This is such a funny place - half the people say that we should be looking forward/not back and instead focus on the future and the other half keep asking questions about the past. Last night I sent Turnera a PM since she kept asking what steps I took after my EA and now bfree has asked several times as well. If I don't respond, I'm told I'm evading questions, yet much of that is right here in this thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51649-seeking-advice-6.html#post981451 That post explains what I did between July and August 2012. I then started attending IC for several months because HB refused to go to MC with me. After months of begging and having other friends encourage him as well, he finally agreed and in late Nov 2012, HB and I started MC. Things were definitely improving until Jan 1, 2013 when they took a turn for the worse. I wrote about that here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-36.html#post1495595. That post explains about the last MC session we ever attended (Jan 2013). That was the session HB left, went downtown and reestablished his match.com account and went on a date the next day. That is a very brief summary of those first 7 months. 

As for the drinking, it has definitely reached crazy levels, especially in the last year. But it has also been an ongoing issue for most of our relationship. He says I'm a teetotaler and I disagree. I do drink, on occasion, although not often. I hate beer and always have (have never had more than a sip), have always been the one who drank fruity drinks (strawberry margaritas, amaretto sours, white wine or my favorite - a toasted almond). The dog I had when we got married (who lived a wonderful 17 years!) was named Bailey because she was the color of one of my favorites (Irish Cream), but also not a hard core drink. I still have a glass of wine if I'm out with girlfriends but rarely drink around HB both because one of us has to stay sober and also because when I do I feel like I am condoning his addiction. 

We dated long distance for seven months before I moved east to be with him shortly before we got married, so I didn't see him on a daily basis. He would on occasion while we were out get very drunk and when I asked him why, he would explain that I made him nervous and he shouldn't have had so much to drink. Once we were married , we'd drink wine at dinner and I would often accept a second glass in hopes he would drink less. Within a year of our marriage, I was pregnant and then later breastfeeding and couldn’t/didn't drink. He would then drink the entire bottle of wine (plus JD sometimes as well) almost every night. But at that time it was really an evening thing. Most nights he would pass out on the couch (when I say pass out, I mean I was unable to wake him without really, really shaking him or literally yelling before he would open his eyes and then he would be completely disoriented). The man who is the lightest sleeper I know when he hasn't been drinking (and there were times he didn't drink or only had a couple) could literally not be awakened for the first four hours he was asleep. 

The drinking during the day started well before our house project (which predated any of the stuff mentioned in TAM). That was when he started working from home on occasion during the day with a glass of Jack Daniels next to his computer. That wasn't an every day thing (he still went to the office, but was happening more and more. So the round the clock stuff hadn't started but he was drinking mid day on work days. Today he drinks every day, all day. When he goes to the office, he brings a bottle of JD in his briefcase with him - I don't know if that was happening before my EA, but he was definitely drinking at home mid day before my EA. Has it gotten worse and worse since the EA, yes. Yesterday he ran an errand about 3 pm and we met in the driveway as I was headed out for an errand myself. He was holding/hiding something at his side and I at first thought it was something for our anniversary. Instead, I saw it was a grocery bag with only a bottle of JD in it. He had run out mid day and had to leave to continue. Last night the new bottle he bought at 3 was 1/4 gone.


----------



## LongWalk

Sooner or later Harken will DUI if he is drinking as you say. He has never debated your claims, which I take to be an admission that they are essentially accurate.

So, while I am loath to accept ClipClop's conclusion that Harken is not as nice a guy as we imagined, I think that is the product of drink, rather than his core character. But if you drink your character to death, then you become someone else.

Harken,

If you are still reading, go down to the ocean for a swim. Go to an AA meeting. Write down your impressions and give them to AMU to post here as photos.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

clipclop2 said:


> He is every bit as much of a cheater as she is. In fact he's worse because he did it cruelly and threw it in her face.


No he isn't worse they are equally cruel and they are both manipulating each other to get what they perceive is the best outcome. It's sad when a marriage turns into a case of "I'm gonna win." it's why i stopped posting and started lurking. There is so much tit for tat and "me me me me" it is ridiculous.


> There is no trust and contrary to what they say there is no love.


Yep.


----------



## Pluto2

Honestly, AMU, this is a horrible way for you or Harken to live. Neither one of you is at peace, neither one of you is willing to sacrifice for the future of the marriage (what's past is past). There is just the eternal, bitter, stalemate. You say you're good parents, but what kind of a model are you showing to your children? Is this the kind of a marriage you want them to emulate?

It looks like you will have to take some action, or just learn to live in this situation. Harken won't, or more accurately can't.


----------



## clipclop2

He could avoid a DUI. I know a couple daily drinkers who have never gotten one.

HB hasn't reached a bottom. He isn't ready for AA. He isn't humble enough not to look at regular alcoholics with anything but disdain (He isn't like them.). And he certainly isn't ready to admit to the ones who see through him that he needs help and is wrecking his life. He couldn't handle people who would call him out to his face, especially if he believes they are lesser mortals.

Where is your bottom Harken Banks? 

Saving Mr. Banks

Nobody can save him but him. It'd be sad but acceptable if he were the only person he took down. It is tragic that he thinks so highly of himself that he cannot admit that mitigating what he chooses not to solve is poor consolation to his children.

They get to grow up as Adult Children of Alcoholics.

The gift that keeps on giving.


----------



## turnera

To be fair, he isn't here to defend himself, and this isn't his thread. So we should be focusing on a conversation with AMU about what changes SHE can be making at this point.


----------



## clipclop2

True. Getting out would be my suggestion.


----------



## warlock07

The resentment for one another has got so bad that I think HB will stop drinking if it will spite AMU.


----------



## warlock07

AMU, two months two years back isn't enough.


----------



## NoChoice

I am a total newbie here and my opinions may be totally dismissed as the green advice of a rookie, which I understand.

I have experienced my own demons dealing with a WS so I understand a lot of what HB is dealing with. My situation also has been ongoing for several years following DD and I still wrestle with some of those demons to this day. 

In any event, one thing I have come to see quite clearly is that it all boils down to how badly someone wants something. There is a saying that says if someone wants something badly enough they will find a way, if not, they will find as excuse. I believe this to be absolutely true.

The only real question you need to ask yourself is do you want your marriage to work. That must be answered with COMPLETE honesty. Then, based on that answer, set about finding a WAY and stop with all the excuses. I've read a lot of the 2012 stuff and quite a bit of the 2014 stuff and from what I see you two are replete with excuses but short on determination and dedication.

HB feels a huge sense of loss over what he thought he had in the marriage and rightly so BUT he must ask himself the same question I posed to you and then set his mind to act based on his answer and stop with all this other nonsense.

If you or he want to fold then fold but if you or he desire to win this marriage then you have to go all in, ALL IN!

I personally do not feel that drinking to excess is an acceptable way for him to deal with his loss and in fact, to me represents a way of avoiding dealing with it and causing further damage. He needs to deal with that addiction. I feel that his avoidance of dealing with you head on is indicative of his desire to stay with you but first he wants you to feel the pain that he has felt and maybe more, hence the "dating" and social contact.

I feel that part of his pain currently may actually be caused by his hurting you now but he just can't bear you "getting off easy" and not feeling pain like he felt so he keeps doing it. I know I wanted my WW to feel the agony she inflicted on me and set about trying to make her. I finally realized that two wrongs don't make a right but the strong desire was there to "punish" her for her misdeeds. I was acting out of desperation and hurt as I believe HB is now.

I hated what my wife had done so badly. You see though, hatred is not the opposite of love indifference is. If you hate someone you still feel strongly about them but if you are indifferent, you couldn't care less and I feel that if love is total caring then the lack of all caring is the opposite. If only we could understand that until a person sees within themselves the problem and has a SINCERE desire to fix it, then punishment is not very effective.

I believe HB is on a very dark path and that he may very well reach a point of no return. He needs to stop the alcohol for his own sake, his family's sake and for this or any future relationship's sake but HE has to see the problem and finally realize it himself. If I am correct and his behavior is an attempt to punish you then he is basically self destructing.

Your family has endured 2 years of "punishing" each other and it's simply time to stop. If your answer to the above question was that you indeed sincerely want the marriage to succeed then honestly answer this; can HB possibly find a woman more dedicated to him than you would be now?? Convince him of that, using WHATEVER force is necessary(conquering your own demons), and you guys live happily ever after. Enough time, energy and emotion has been wasted on this mistake. For the sake of your family it's time to move on. Either renew your commitment to each other and REALLY MEAN IT this time and go on as a family or decide to go your separate ways and roll the dice that you'll do better on the next relationship. That's my 2 cents worth and it may not even be worth that. Best of luck.

P.S. I have read many hours on this site and gleaned some valuable insight. Thank you to everyone.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



AMU said:


> This is such a funny place - half the people say that we should be looking forward/not back and instead focus on the future and the other half keep asking questions about the past. Last night I sent Turnera a PM since she kept asking what steps I took after my EA and now bfree has asked several times as well. If I don't respond, I'm told I'm evading questions, yet much of that is right here in this thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51649-seeking-advice-6.html#post981451 That post explains what I did between July and August 2012. I then started attending IC for several months because HB refused to go to MC with me. After months of begging and having other friends encourage him as well, he finally agreed and in late Nov 2012, HB and I started MC. Things were definitely improving until Jan 1, 2013 when they took a turn for the worse. I wrote about that here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-36.html#post1495595. That post explains about the last MC session we ever attended (Jan 2013). That was the session HB left, went downtown and reestablished his match.com account and went on a date the next day. That is a very brief summary of those first 7 months.
> 
> As for the drinking, it has definitely reached crazy levels, especially in the last year. But it has also been an ongoing issue for most of our relationship. He says I'm a teetotaler and I disagree. I do drink, on occasion, although not often. I hate beer and always have (have never had more than a sip), have always been the one who drank fruity drinks (strawberry margaritas, amaretto sours, white wine or my favorite - a toasted almond). The dog I had when we got married (who lived a wonderful 17 years!) was named Bailey because she was the color of one of my favorites (Irish Cream), but also not a hard core drink. I still have a glass of wine if I'm out with girlfriends but rarely drink around HB both because one of us has to stay sober and also because when I do I feel like I am condoning his addiction.
> 
> We dated long distance for seven months before I moved east to be with him shortly before we got married, so I didn't see him on a daily basis. He would on occasion while we were out get very drunk and when I asked him why, he would explain that I made him nervous and he shouldn't have had so much to drink. Once we were married , we'd drink wine at dinner and I would often accept a second glass in hopes he would drink less. Within a year of our marriage, I was pregnant and then later breastfeeding and couldn’t/didn't drink. He would then drink the entire bottle of wine (plus JD sometimes as well) almost every night. But at that time it was really an evening thing. Most nights he would pass out on the couch (when I say pass out, I mean I was unable to wake him without really, really shaking him or literally yelling before he would open his eyes and then he would be completely disoriented). The man who is the lightest sleeper I know when he hasn't been drinking (and there were times he didn't drink or only had a couple) could literally not be awakened for the first four hours he was asleep.
> 
> The drinking during the day started well before our house project (which predated any of the stuff mentioned in TAM). That was when he started working from home on occasion during the day with a glass of Jack Daniels next to his computer. That wasn't an every day thing (he still went to the office, but was happening more and more. So the round the clock stuff hadn't started but he was drinking mid day on work days. Today he drinks every day, all day. When he goes to the office, he brings a bottle of JD in his briefcase with him - I don't know if that was happening before my EA, but he was definitely drinking at home mid day before my EA. Has it gotten worse and worse since the EA, yes. Yesterday he ran an errand about 3 pm and we met in the driveway as I was headed out for an errand myself. He was holding/hiding something at his side and I at first thought it was something for our anniversary. Instead, I saw it was a grocery bag with only a bottle of JD in it. He had run out mid day and had to leave to continue. Last night the new bottle he bought at 3 was 1/4 gone.


I think you misunderstood. I realize you took some if the concrete steps recommended for rebuilding trust. Yes those are imperative and necessary of course. I'm talking more about the power in the relationship. Was there a noticeable shift in the power dynamic between you and HB? Did you relinquish control of certain aspects of the relationship in deference to HB? What did you do to make him comfortable being around you? Think about what I'm asking before you answer. I'm not necessarily speaking about trust verification although that is somewhat related. I'm speaking more about you as a person and some of the things that you did/do that make HB cringe. It's a subtle difference that many/most WS miss. I've seen many R fail because one or the other has too much pride. One or the other refuses to humble themselves temporarily in order to help lower the wals that tend to build up during times when the relationship is rocky and/or when infidelity takes place. Other than the aforementioned trust rebuilding steps what did you do to help Harken feel comfortable lowering his guard and try loving you again?


----------



## warlock07

bfree, asking for deference is an overkill at this point. You can see it from her posts that she thinks HB doesn't deserve any respect due to his actions and drinking, leave about deference.(The feeling seems to be mutual). You can almost see how pissed off she was getting when posting about his drinking. 

There is absolutely no respect between them. Which is why they know and admit they will destroy one another in a divorce.

I think they forgot what love means. They are just saying stuff out of habit. 

HB, AMU maybe it is because of the work you guys do on a daily basis or the general environment and the people you surround yourself with but this not normal. You guys totally lost perspective.


----------



## warlock07

AMU said:


> Thanks to so many of you for your stories and suggestions. I took the advice of many and took our “story” off the pages of TAM and tried to instead focus on our marriage. I have been here every day, reading others stories for hours, feeling all the hurt and pain and feeling horribly ashamed and heartbroken over causing my own dear husband so much pain through my own affair. It will be 4 weeks ago tomorrow that I finally shared the entire truth with my husband. The details, the content of my discussion with AP, the extent of my communications with AP between Feb 29th and June 7th. I’ve been an open book - I provided him with the phone records, gave him my old cell phone (which I had shipped back to corporate right before I finally came clean and hours later, after BH and talked, I immediately asked that it be shipped back to me, so no one has touched it BH opened the package when it was returned - he has his work IT guy working on retrieving all the texts), I've answered every question he has asked as fully and honestly as I can. He has for months had all my passwords and has access to my computer, FB and phone any time he wants – I only wish he would look. For the first time last week, he opened my computer while I took the kids to camp – I was relieved. Nothing to hide, want him to confirm, but he knows I deleted texts and office phone VOIP calls in the past, so he feels that even if he finds nothing, he still doesn’t know. I gave him the name and phone number of AP’s boss, and he called and confirmed that AP was not traveling when I was this spring – this also exposed the affair to AP’s boss, which is good as well. I have spoken with numerous MCs to find a good fit, and found one recommended by both his own IC as well as a MC with whom I spoke that I think would be a good fit for us. I have asked him again and again if he would go with me, and he says not now. I will be meeting with an IC this week (have selection down to two). I have been reading Not Just Friends and as many have recommended, is a wonderful source. I also read Five Languages of Love back in March when I was really feeling lost about our marriage (recommended by my boss) but know I was full in the fog at the time as well. And I look forward to several of the other books recommended.
> 
> I have tried to reach out to BH, be with him when he wants me to, giving him space when he wants it. I’ve reached out to have 1-1 time with him, taking him to lunch and each time answering all the inevitable questions and direction of our discussion. I stop by to see him when he is working to say hello, give him a hug, tell him I care. I call him and text him. I reach out to him physically as well, with hugs and hand holding as well as in bed. The entire summer I’ve tried to take the lion’s share of the kids’ responsibilities, as I know he is in too much pain/hurt to do much of anything and the kids’ drop offs/pick ups, etc stress him out more. I’ve told him over and over and over how sorry I am for hurting him, for not being the person he deserves, for disrespecting both him and myself by crossing boundaries again and again. For watching him fear something more was going on, watching him lose weight as he worried, but continuing to lie to him so he wouldn’t know the truth about the affair. For continuing to lie even after I ended all contact through a no contact text on June 7th. I did so for so many reasons – to escape the truth, because I was humiliated I had done the things I had, so he wouldn’t know “all” and because I saw what “not knowing” had done to him and I feared that the truth would make things even worse. But he wasn’t getting better, he was getting worse, so I finally told all to him and to all of you in this thread. I own all my actions – my completely inappropriate contact and even sexual discussions with AP, as well as the lies along the way. I’ve shared my abominable behavior with him, with several of our friends and with his parents. I’ve been doing everything in my power to show BH that I’m so very, very sorry for the pain, for the lies, for putting him through this. For not loving him in the way and manner that he deserves – for not showing him the love I feel so deep in my heart. I’ve apologized again and again and again, while listening to him tell me all the things I know he feels – that it’s disgusting, that I’m disgusting, that he married me because he knew I would never do anything like this and that he just doesn’t know how he gets over something like this. And I know that it is up to him – I just hope and PRAY every day that he will give US a chance. And me another chance to show him how much I love him, want to be with him – now and for the rest of our lives.
> 
> Yet BH tells me he doesn’t see any remorse, and I’m not sure how to respond. I’m trying to do so in all the ways I know, but I’m clearly failing. He tells me I’m emotionally incapable of feeling anything for anyone. He tells me he wants to work through this, yet most of his words and actions tell me he doesn’t.
> 
> Well today, we were out to lunch at a beautiful outdoor location with our family and his brother who is visiting. After lunch I picked up his phone to glance at his texts. And I was shocked to see a drafted text to his IC stating that for this week’s session he wanted to discuss the fact that he was seeing a divorce attorney on Monday and bringing all our tax returns and financial information. Here I was thinking we were working on things and instead he is pursuing the D route. I am crushed and heartbroken. He tells me it’s just so he understands the “where he would be before and after” but to me if says if he wants to know that, he’s looking to be out. I’m crushed. Not because I don’t deserve it – I know this is his choice after my actions, but I have been so hopeful we could try to work on things. I’ve been reading the reconciliation thread out there and this sure doesn’t feel like reconciliation – feels like the opposite.
> 
> I know I won’t find much solace in this board, but I am hurting so badly. Tearing myself up inside that my stupid and reckless actions brought us to this place. And still wishing, wishing, wishing for that happy ending….
> 
> So sad,
> AllMessedUp


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



warlock07 said:


> bfree, asking for deference is an overkill at this point. You can see it from her posts that she thinks HB doesn't deserve any respect due to his actions and drinking, leave about deference.(The feeling seems to be mutual). You can almost see how pissed off she was getting when posting about his drinking.
> 
> There is absolutely no respect between them. Which is why they know and admit they will destroy one another in a divorce.
> 
> I think they forgot what love means. They are just saying stuff out of habit.
> 
> HB, AMU maybe it is because of the work you guys do on a daily basis or the general environment and the people you surround yourself with but this not normal. You guys totally lost perspective.


Yes now you are correct but I was speaking more in terms of early in the R. I do not believe AMU is fully capable of giving up power or control to HB in any meaningful way and I believe that's where the R went awry. I don't feel that HB ever got comfortable again being around AMU. I believe that his general laid back nature didn't allow him to challenge her on this. I think he felt that since she was supposed to do the heavy lifting that he shouldn't need to tell her what she should have been doing. I think resentment built up over this and he started drinking more heavily to numb his feelings so he could avoid divorce. The more he drank the more AMU saw him as irresponsible and the more she felt she could assert herself in the relationship. The more she asserted herself the more Harken drank to numb himself. And now we have a vicious cycle with no end in sight.


----------



## clipclop2

very few waywards are willing to give up power or control at the beginning are they? I think it does very little good to discuss what she did or didn't do back then. she can't go back and fix any of it 

where they are right now is the result of many things not just her cheating. 

you have to work at this by peeling back the layers of the onion or in other words going after the lowest hanging fruit. The obvious low hanging fruit are hoarding and drinking. They aren't easy but they're very easy to identify and the acceptance criteria to judge success is very easy to identify.

I think the only thing that harping on her cheating does is bolster Harkin's idea that he should continue to do what he does because it's justified. 

I don't know if the marriage is salvageable in the absence of hoarding and drinking but I know that it is hopeless with them.


----------



## warlock07

bfree said:


> Yes now you are correct but I was speaking more in terms of early in the R. I do not believe AMU is fully capable of giving up power or control to HB in any meaningful way and I believe that's where the R went awry. I don't feel that HB ever got comfortable again being around AMU. I believe that his general laid back nature didn't allow him to challenge her on this. I think he felt that since she was supposed to do the heavy lifting that he shouldn't need to tell her what she should have been doing. I think resentment built up over this and he started drinking more heavily to numb his feelings so he could avoid divorce. The more he drank the more AMU saw him as irresponsible and the more she felt she could assert herself in the relationship. The more she asserted herself the more Harken drank to numb himself. And now we have a vicious cycle with no end in sight.


The same thing is discussed/posted ad nauseam in this thread. 

I think AMU is also scared of handing the power to him again. He hurt her when she did that last time for 2 months. So she would rather be emotionally safe and go on equal terms(We both have our faults angle)


AMU, you take pride in your career. You probably know about the prisoner's dilemma

Prisoner's dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can adapt it to your situation.


----------



## clipclop2

again all that you were going to get into with this discussion is tit for tat. and perhaps you really don't understand that by giving up her family and moving to be with him only to learn that he drank far more than she was comfortable with especially given her background her ability to trust him was damaged from the start. 

no she doesn't trust him. and he does not trust her.

if they would do the right things for themselves ... not for one another but for themselves... where the right thing is right because it is inherently good and honest and true and best for them as individuals they would find that they were also doing the right thing for each other and their family. 

making this about what one of them has to give up for the other is missing the point entirely.


if they would both embrace mental health as individuals and would make that their goal these two people would achieve it. They are capable of anything they want to do. 

there's far too much and now a sis about the cheating in all of this. People are very simple creatures in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

bfree said:


> Yes now you are correct but I was speaking more in terms of early in the R. I do not believe AMU is fully capable of giving up power or control to HB in any meaningful way and I believe that's where the R went awry. I don't feel that HB ever got comfortable again being around AMU. I believe that his general laid back nature didn't allow him to challenge her on this. I think he felt that since she was supposed to do the heavy lifting that he shouldn't need to tell her what she should have been doing. I think resentment built up over this and he started drinking more heavily to numb his feelings so he could avoid divorce. The more he drank the more AMU saw him as irresponsible and the more she felt she could assert herself in the relationship. The more she asserted herself the more Harken drank to numb himself. And now we have a vicious cycle with no end in sight.


Great post Bfree.

What you said here is exactly what I believe where the point of no return was reached. There were obviously huge problems before the betrayal. The affair was basically rugswept and not dealt with except by more repression through drinking and the apparent zero remorse from AMU.

Unlike some of the other posters here, I personally don't believe that HB cheated. Once she made her intentions clear and by stating that she didn't want him anymore, he had every right to seek the attention of women elsewhere. It's not what I would have done by any means, but as far as I'm concerned, once that statement was made by AMU he was a "free" man. 

As long as the children were not privy to it, he was totally justified in doing so once she made it clear that she did not want or desire him anymore.

The bilateral anger is palpable, even from their writing. God only knows what it must be like as a lived experience. That their children are forced to endure the alcohol enabled and silent repressed rage of HB and the overt, terrible verbal abuse and escapism by hoarding, from AMU and yet they can still call themselves "good parents" and "not abusive" saddens me but also enrages me on their children's behalf.


----------



## LongWalk

There are different ways to explain the dynamics of their marriage. AMU, the daughter of an alcoholic, found herself drawn to an alcoholic. Fixing whatever went wrong in childhood is a common pattern in relationships.

Harken is unable to meet AMU's emotional needs because his mood is constantly modified by a drug that cause people to be happy and sad for no reason.

Harken has consistently perceived AMU desire to dry him out as part of her tyrannical personality. As long as sobriety is something he opposes because it will break his spirit, there marriage has a reason to exist – the power struggle. But AMU is worn out. That is why HB started threads in the search for some explanation or solution.

HB's blackmail is "if you decide to divorce me, I am going to immediately start having sex with other women."

There is some possibility that HB will drink more because of the pain of divorce. The OW will not lead to a better and more stable life for him.


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## clipclop2

people who rewrite the definition of cheating to serve their own purposes are very scary people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedAgain7

Is the definition of cheating written in stone then clipclop?

I don't think he redefined it, I think he is or was a free thinker who made up his own mind about a label.


----------



## turnera

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Once she made her intentions clear and by stating that she didn't want him anymore, he had every right to seek the attention of women elsewhere.


In an HOUR?! :scratchhead:


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Perhaps it was a bit hasty, but I think such is the level of resentment and rage he had towards her.

The tit for tat is quite obvious.


----------



## Pluto2

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Perhaps it was a bit hasty, but I think such is the level of resentment and rage he had towards her.
> 
> The tit for tat is quite obvious.


Perhaps more a level of desperation after being told AMU wanted out.
I'm not defending HB, he crossed a line I for one would not tolerate. But all these two have done to one another since that time is to hurt each other. They have convinced themselves the kids are immune from it all, and I have to tell them they aren't. They know dad drinks too much, and mom is angry and they know mom and dad can't stand each other.


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## turnera

Their kids BEG them to stop. In normal people, that would be enough to get them to change.


----------



## 2xloser

A crazy, simple, but real question: 

How come it feels like we all care more that these two embark on R than they do? :scratchhead:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



turnera said:


> In an HOUR?! :scratchhead:


And that's why I said that I don't think they really love each other anymore. They may care for each other to a small extent but there's no love there. They both want out but neither one is strong enough to pull the trigger.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



LongWalk said:


> There are different ways to explain the dynamics of their marriage. AMU, the daughter of an alcoholic, found herself drawn to an alcoholic. Fixing whatever went wrong in childhood is a common pattern in relationships.
> 
> Harken is unable to meet AMU's emotional needs because his mood is constantly modified by a drug that cause people to be happy and sad for no reason.
> 
> Harken has consistently perceived AMU desire to dry him out as part of her tyrannical personality. As long as sobriety is something he opposes because it will break his spirit, there marriage has a reason to exist – the power struggle. But AMU is worn out. That is why HB started threads in the search for some explanation or solution.
> 
> HB's blackmail is "if you decide to divorce me, I am going to immediately start having sex with other women."
> 
> There is some possibility that HB will drink more because of the pain of divorce. The OW will not lead to a better and more stable life for him.


True. But there was a point when this could have been salvaged. Sometimes infidelity can be the catalyst, a crisis point where change can occur. Right after D-day if AMU had been able to cede control, just for a little while, enough to allow Harken to get comfortable being around her again, this could have worked. As things are now I think there is too much resentment and disrespect present between them. Damned sad, especially for the kids.


----------



## Pluto2

2xloser said:


> A crazy, simple, but real question:
> 
> How come it feels like we all care more that these two embark on R than they do? :scratchhead:


At the moment I don't see R working. There's too much anger, resentment and pain.
Frankly, AMU, I believe a physical separation of you and HB with the condition that no outside relationships are attempted by both of you, with promises for IC from both, as the only way to salvage the marriage. I am an optimist.

There has got to be an end to this cruel cycle in order to heal.


----------



## clipclop2

Absolutely agree with Pluto!


Regarding definitions: Cheaters change definitions and rationalize. That's why we are so caught off guard. We can't understand how they could possibly believe their own bull.

Adopting that kind of thinking because you were cheated on shows that the cheater really isn't crazy. They are just selfish. And by the same token, so is the recent adoptee.

Everyone has allegedly good reasons for what they think and do. But sometimes they are just nonsense.

We define words and rules and laws so we can make sense of the world, feel safe and communicate. If these things shift with the wind they are all ultimately meaningless.

my husband has this tendency and quite honestly I cannot trust him because of it and I will not trust anyone who thinks that situational ethics are appropriate in marriage .


----------



## NoChoice

clipclop2 said:


> Absolutely agree with Pluto!
> 
> 
> Regarding definitions: Cheaters change definitions and rationalize. That's why we are so caught off guard. We can't understand how they could possibly believe their own bull.
> 
> Adopting that kind of thinking because you were cheated on shows that the cheater really isn't crazy. They are just selfish. And by the same token, so is the recent adoptee.
> 
> Everyone has allegedly good reasons for what they think and do. But sometimes they are just nonsense.
> 
> We define words and rules and laws so we can make sense of the world, feel safe and communicate. If these things shift with the wind the
> 
> my husband has this tendency and quite honestly I cannot trust him because of it and I will not trust anyone who thinks that situational ethics are appropriate in marriage .


I agree and have told my WW that I believe her to be a situational thinker. In the cold light of reason she could not even imagine herself doing things but in the warm reality of the situation all logic and reason in her decision making seem to fly out of the window. It's a little frightening sometimes as to what the limit of her bad judgement would be in any given situation.


----------



## 2xloser

Pluto2 said:


> Frankly, AMU, I believe a physical separation of you and HB with the condition that no outside relationships are attempted by both of you, with promises for IC from both, as the only way to salvage the marriage.


We may all agree, even AMU might, but I think HB has made it clear (and proven it in action) that he would not agree to this.

So, then what...


----------



## warlock07

Did HB really get banned because of he called tunera stupid once after she was repeatedly cooking up conspiracy theories about Caper ?

Or is there some other reason ?

Tunera, did you report him ?


----------



## turnera

FTR, I was not _repeatedly _cooking up conspiracy theories. In fact, I didn't bring it up at ALL for all the pages of the So... thread and wouldn't have brought it up on this one except that HB himself brought up Caper, after he _specifically_ said he was deleting his thread _JUST SO THAT_ AMU would not see that Caper had responded. So I called him out on the hypocritical nature of whitewashing HIS shortcomings and then coming here to expound on HERS. I believe I mentioned it twice thereafter, and only after he seized upon it.

Of course I didn't report him. I have only reported one person in all my time here and that was because the man was talking dangerously toward violence.


----------



## warlock07

Banning him for using the word stupid(If that is what he was banned for) is stupid. The mods could have just deleted the post and given him a warning.


----------



## turnera

Actually, he said 'you are an idiot.' To which I did not respond, mind you.

fwiw, I was surprised. I've been far ruder to people in an attempt to get through to them; he didn't deserve to get banned. But maybe as LW suggests, he was looking for it to get a rest from all this.


----------



## LongWalk

The word he used was "idiot" and he said he would get a ban. So he asked to be banned to hop off the ride that was making his stomach upset.

Addictions are really difficult to vanquish. I can totally empathize with the feeling that an alcohol has. The familiar warmth as the liquor goes down, the feeling to peace that slides over. It's a relief from lives troubles. It does make people creative and strong under certain circumstances. If it were just poison, we wouldn't struggle so much with it.

In Finland the people are shy. They need to drink to release their feelings. They also have terrible alcoholism.


----------



## AMU

Pluto2 said:


> At the moment I don't see R working. There's too much anger, resentment and pain.
> Frankly, AMU, I believe a physical separation of you and HB with the condition that no outside relationships are attempted by both of you, with promises for IC from both, as the only way to salvage the marriage. I am an optimist.
> 
> There has got to be an end to this cruel cycle in order to heal.


Pluto - that was exactly what I suggested almost 2 years ago - it was five months after I ended all contact with EA partner, I had continued the things I mentioned in the post from August of that year, things were terribly stressful, things were being said to and around the kids that were abominable and I thought that would allow the kids some peace and us time to work on us. I looked into what housing arrangements might be available to try this and he responded by setting up his match.com account.

At that point he did agree to try MC so we started that in Nov and it went well until the MC also suggested "nesting" (same definition as you describe) and that was when he left the appointment and within hours was back on match.com setting up dates. Longwalk called it "blackmail" and that resonated with me, as I feel if I take any steps to get out of this situation, he will be sleeping with some woman the very next day. And there is no going back for me then. So a "separation" of any kind means our marriage is over. And I want both of us to get help and work through this.

We did have a very good day yesterday - some long and hard discussions and some actions taken that I feel are a good start. So often we talk right past each other without really listening to what the other is saying or feeling, but we got past that and had numerous very open, honest and soul-bearing discussions. Thanks to all of you rooting for us.


----------



## Pluto2

AMU, first I am thrilled you two had a good discussion yesterday and I sincerely hope it continues. That's a start!

I know the possibility of separation was raised before and I read how HB reacted back then.

But,
two years of this bitterness is killing your family and I'd guess it is killing much of the loving emotions you each felt for one another. 

So, do you believe HB would agree to some temporary kindness ground rules? Sort of a resolution to treat each other will kid gloves in an attempt to break the status quo. No yelling, no snide remarks, no hounding about his drinking, no nagging about the "boxes", no bringing up the past. During this time you both go into IC. I wouldn't even suggest MC. You each have your own demons to conquer before you could honestly deal with the relationship.

Understand, I am NOT suggesting you do any kind of rug-sweeping of any ones issues. I am only suggesting an in-house respite of the repeated pain while each of you get help.


----------



## clipclop2

I also think banning HB for what he said is stupid. For some reason I'm not able to like Warlock's post.

I don't think Tunera baited him and I think HB was acting like himself (dismissive, combative and avoidant, one of the few people who can pull off all three at the same time!). He didn't deserve a ban. He wasn't abusive.


----------



## clipclop2

I think it is funny that punishing HB's very minor infraction would have been more severely punished if he HADN'T been banned! :what:


----------



## LongWalk

The TAM moderators do not have time to read entire threads to gain a fine understanding of the people involved. They read the alleged infractions and rule. Given Harkens verbal abilities, he knew what he was risking by writing that the word idiotic would earn a ban. The ban can be good for him to think things over.

Regarding post divorce dating, it is surely worth noting that the amount of baggage that AMU and HB would bring along in any new relationship would he heavy indeed. Were they to split, explaining to whom they had been married, would be tedious. Not discussing the past would also be difficult. I don't think it would be anything to look forward to.

An alternative would be for them to work on themselves, easily said, I know, and later explain to each other: "I was such an azz/*****, please forgive me. I can hardly bear to think that I was like that."

The reply, in the happily ever after scenario, is: "I always knew we would come round. Thank you for having the patience."


----------



## AMU

I'm not sure I understand the last post by clipclop, but I would like to clear up any misperceptions or inferences that have been made here. HB did not want to be banned so that he could take a break. I know he made the comment that he may be, but I don't think any of us truly believed it would happen, as the word "idiot" is mild in comparison to many exchanges I've read read at TAM. He has been bubbling over with frustration for not being able to defend himself the last few days as he feels the posts are out of control.

And for the record, Caper is a real person and he did post on the "So" thread before it was deleted. HB didn't realize who he was at first (thought it was a good girlfriend of mine) and once the connection was made, they played a couple holes of golf (the girls and I were away at camp with no Internet connection) and decided it would be better to remove the posts from the time Caper entered the thread. The moderators said they couldn't do that, so HB deleted the entire thread. Caper reached out to me Tues night telling me he was Caper and summarizing what he thought it would take for things to work between us and I wrote Turnera and told her Caper was a real person who we both knew so she wouldn't continue to believe that Caper/HB were one and the same. HB tells me the moderators have banned Caper from posting anymore (can't imagine why they would do so unless they also believe he is not "real" so I will vouch for the fact he is a real person who knows both HB and myself) - he was trying to help and offer his own perspective.


----------



## clipclop2

My post meant that a ban is supposed to be a punishment but in reality hanging out here and responding is more of a punishment if you are having a rough time on TAM.

I just find it humorous. 

sometimes it be nice if they would let people work things out between them especially when the major offense was such a minor word. 

I could see if he called her a lepton. is fightin words. But idiot? I don't think so. Pish. Tunera can handle that without batting an eyelash.


----------



## sidney2718

clipclop2 said:


> My post meant that a ban is supposed to be a punishment but in reality hanging out here and responding is more of a punishment if you are having a rough time on TAM.
> 
> I just find it humorous.
> 
> sometimes it be nice if they would let people work things out between them especially when the major offense was such a minor word.
> 
> I could see if he called her a lepton. is fightin words. But idiot? I don't think so. Pish. Tunera can handle that without batting an eyelash.



Lepton? Boson might have been better.

In recent weeks sniping, backbiting, and such like have gotten out of hand on TAM. A number of people have been banned as a result. Some were even permabanned. (The distinction is like a timeout versus a divorce.)

Thus given the level of discussion here, the use of derogatory terms for another poster (which is explicitly banned) caused HB to be banned. I believe it is a "timeout" ban but I don't know.

Back to the subject: I do not have a clue as to what to do in the case at hand. Saving this marriage seems impossible. The most likely course is that HB and AMU will stay together until somebody snaps and something bad happens. I think that would be bad.

On the other hand, I don't see anything improving the situation at all. So perhaps the best thing would be for them to divorce. That way AMU can work on her problems and HB can have all the internet mediated sex he wants. The major sufferers will be their kids, but hey...


----------



## BrockLanders

There is still an outside force who campaigns against HB. G'head and follow it. You are listening to lies. Maybe HB needs to take a break from the sauce, he's a smart guy, he'll figure it out.


----------



## warlock07

Racer decided that TAM is no longer being helpful to him and is just feeding his negative emotions.

You guys had one good day after he was banned. He was forced to interact with you I guess ? Maybe banning HB has its own silver lining. 

He actually need not defend himself here. If the "So' thread existed I could have copied a few posts from that thread and pasted them here. That would have been enough. he repeats a lot. 

AMU, have you discussed the job situation again with him ?


----------



## clipclop2

Permaband. The new Fruit of the Loom waistband.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

clipclop2 said:


> We define words and rules and laws so we can make sense of the world, feel safe and communicate. If these things shift with the wind they are all ultimately meaningless.
> 
> my husband has this tendency and quite honestly I cannot trust him because of it and I will not trust anyone who thinks that situational ethics are appropriate in marriage .


I'm taking as a given that as you and I were discussing definitions this is a reply to me clipclop?

I think one can also rely on the fact that while situational ethics are important, one can also safely assume that if someone is told that they are not wanted and desired then the person saying it DOES actually MEAN it. Even more so after a betrayal.

Words after all and not actions are what we here are always telling BS that a WS must be judged by. 

In this case I think HB did exactly that. He believed in her words and acted accordingly. A bit hastily I must admit, but as I said, this relationship is a tit for tat one and all that matters is staying a head of the game for the sake of appearances and one upmanship. 

Ethics just isn't coming into play here at all as far as I can see.


----------



## clipclop2

Oh bull. He acted out. And he stepped out.

The fact that he had never had the intention of leaving or letting her go flies in the face of his alleged believing anything. 

He cheated. Period.


----------



## clipclop2

Wait. You said words and not actions? The opposite. Actions, not words.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

> Wait. You said words and not actions? The opposite. Actions, not words.


True. She acted and betrayed him and because of her statement he did what he felt he needed to do. Tit for tat.



clipclop2 said:


> He cheated. Period.


In YOUR opinion, but not in mine, which is what I said in my original post. So I'm happy to agree to disagree.


----------



## clipclop2

If your spouse did what he did to you how would you interpret it?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

clipclop2 said:


> If your spouse did what he did to you how would you interpret it?


I wouldn't have told him that I didn't want or desire him, so the situation would not have arisen.


----------



## NoChoice

People say things in the heat of the moment that they don't always mean. Jed Clampett referred to it as saying getty up to your mouth before your brain was hitched up.

Still, wrong + wrong = right? Nope, wrong + wrong = 2xwrong. It grows exponentially. As far as a WS goes, the only pain that does any good is not the pain of the BS getting revenge but rather the pain of seeing and understanding what the WS did to the BS. The true pain of empathy is all that can change a WS.

It seems that there is little or no empathy left here and that is sad. If you guys can't truly feel what each other is feeling then I doubt there is anything left to save. I know "putting yourself in the other person's shoes" and all that has been advised over and over but can you actually do it? Do you even want to? We can see what you guys are doing to each other, can you see it? Feel it? Hope I am wrong.


----------



## Pluto2

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I wouldn't have told him that I didn't want or desire him, so the situation would not have arisen.


Well that's an awfully convenient reply, isn't it.

In its most basic form HB told AMU that he would go find other women, and he did. I accept him at his word that he did nothing physical. So what? He sought out a third person in an effort to deal with his marital issues. Anytime you bring a third party into the marriage there is an element of infidelity. HB knew that. It was a cruel act, and IMO he knew that too.

They apparently know exactly how to twist the proverbial knife in the other's back.


----------



## turnera

He didn't do nothing physical. He admitted to kissing and fondling. And he says he'll do it again - and has the right to - as soon as she says she's unhappy with him. It's extortion.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Pluto2 said:


> Well that's an awfully convenient reply, isn't it.


Not convenient, just the truth. 

I was asked a question and I answered it. Simple as that.


----------



## clipclop2

exactly. He had physical contact with other women. plural. 

he also maintain that he did not want to divorce. he refused to separate. so we had both actions and words that contradicted one another. Refusing to separate get going on dates and having physical contact with other women. 

like anyone who does anything he did what he did because he wanted to do it. He did not do it because of what she said or did. He chose his response.

And it has become an inherently untrustworthy person because of it. purely based on his relationship with his ex girlfriend and with blatantly going out on dates and feeling up other women I would never consider him as a possible mate. 

and like I said before people whose definition of fidelity shift as it seems convenient are not people that I consider trustworthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

turnera said:


> He didn't do nothing physical. He admitted to kissing and fondling. And he says he'll do it again - and has the right to - as soon as she says she's unhappy with him. It's extortion.


Yes he did have a right too just as soon as she betrayed him and that statement was made. I agree. 

Was his timing a bit iffy? Yes. Was he justified in his behaviour?

If that what's floats his boat, then yes, yes he was. IMO.


----------



## turnera

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes he did have a right too just as soon as she betrayed him and that statement was made. I agree.
> 
> Was his timing a bit iffy? Yes. Was he justified in his behaviour?
> 
> If that what's floats his boat, then yes, yes he was. IMO.


Huh? The time between her betrayal and their visit to the MC are FAR away from each other and she was no longer being wayward, the way I read it. She was trying to fix the relationship by going to MC. So you're saying that if your spouse cheats, for the rest of y'all's marriage, you're allowed to go screw other people whenever the FORMER wayward says she doesn't like how the relationship is going?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

turnera said:


> The time between her betrayal and their visit to the MC are FAR away from each other and she was no longer being wayward, the way I read it.


Well I guess you and I read it differently then. I was under the impression that she cheated, he asked her why she had cheated and she said it was because she didn't want or desire him. 

If that's not the case and I have misinterpreted, then perhaps AMU can set me right on that score. 

If not, then I stand by my opinion.


----------



## turnera

> Seeking Advice That post explains what I did between July and August 2012. I then started attending IC for several months because HB refused to go to MC with me. After months of begging and having other friends encourage him as well, he finally agreed and in late Nov 2012, HB and I started MC. Things were definitely improving until Jan 1, 2013 when they took a turn for the worse. I wrote about that here: Initial foray. That post explains about the last MC session we ever attended (Jan 2013). That was the session HB left, went downtown and reestablished his match.com account and went on a date the next day.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Reading one piece of a post out of context means nothing to me Turnera.

When I have the time I'll re read this whole thread to see if I missed something, but my impression and interpretation of events comes from HB and his now deleted thread SO.


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Perhaps it was a bit hasty, but I think such is the level of resentment and rage he had towards her.
> 
> The tit for tat is quite obvious.


Yes, but tit for tat hardly ever does any good. Another saying for this is "two wrongs don't make a right." All it does is remove any moral superiority he might have had.


----------



## sidney2718

2xloser said:


> A crazy, simple, but real question:
> 
> How come it feels like we all care more that these two embark on R than they do? :scratchhead:


That's simple. The reason is that we all care more than those two do about saving their marriage.

No joke intended.


----------



## sidney2718

clipclop2 said:


> I also think banning HB for what he said is stupid. For some reason I'm not able to like Warlock's post.
> 
> I don't think Tunera baited him and I think HB was acting like himself (dismissive, combative and avoidant, one of the few people who can pull off all three at the same time!). He didn't deserve a ban. He wasn't abusive.


For the record, I agree that Turnera did not bait him. Turnera is strong minded and in my opinion, much more often right than wrong. HB was trying very hard to avoid certain key subjects. Turnera and several others would not let him get away.

But the "idiot" comment was abusive and intended to be, at least in my opinion.


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes he did have a right too just as soon as she betrayed him and that statement was made. I agree.
> 
> Was his timing a bit iffy? Yes. Was he justified in his behaviour?
> 
> If that what's floats his boat, then yes, yes he was. IMO.


As I've said before, in my opinion, if one spouse cheats, it does not give the other spouse license to cheat. The only exception, in my way of thinking, if during the waiting period for a divorce to be final, both parties agree to go their own way, then it is OK.


----------



## turnera

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Reading one piece of a post out of context means nothing to me Turnera.
> 
> When I have the time I'll re read this whole thread to see if I missed something, but my impression and interpretation of events comes from HB and his now deleted thread SO.


It's a timeline. How out of context can a timeline get?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

turnera said:


> It's a timeline. How out of context can a timeline get?


The piece is not a long enough timeline, nor is it coherent enough for me to reconsider my interpretation of events.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Sidney, if any of your posts are responses to me, I'm not being rude by not answering them. 

It's just that I have you on ignore so I can't read your posts.


----------



## turnera

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> The piece is not a long enough timeline, nor is it coherent enough for me to reconsider my interpretation of events.


You said


> I was under the impression that *she cheated, he asked her why she had cheated and she said it was because she didn't want or desire him*.


I quoted


> what I did *between July and August 2012*...After months of begging and having other friends encourage him as well, he finally agreed and *in late Nov 2012, HB and I started MC*. Things were definitely improving until Jan 1, 2013 when they took a turn for the worse.* the last MC session we ever attended (Jan 2013*). That was the session* HB left, went downtown and reestablished his match.com account and went on a date the next day*


From what I can see, she cheated in Summer, there was IC/MC until January, and THEN he went and found other women. Seems pretty coherent. Unless you're saying that IN that MC session, 7 months later, he asked her and then chose to cheat.

End of T/J


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

I know very well what I said AND what the post you quoted said Turnera. 

My interpretation and assessment therefore remains the same, until and unless, further information comes to light.

I don't need you to highlight anything for me and I'll draw my own conclusions from re-reading the WHOLE thread again. 

End of T/J


----------



## Chaparral

sidney2718 said:


> Lepton? Boson might have been better.
> 
> In recent weeks sniping, backbiting, and such like have gotten out of hand on TAM. A number of people have been banned as a result. Some were even permabanned. (The distinction is like a timeout versus a divorce.)
> 
> Thus given the level of discussion here, the use of derogatory terms for another poster (which is explicitly banned) caused HB to be banned. I believe it is a "timeout" ban but I don't know.
> 
> Back to the subject: I do not have a clue as to what to do in the case at hand. Saving this marriage seems impossible. The most likely course is that HB and AMU will stay together until somebody snaps and something bad happens. I think that would be bad.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't see anything improving the situation at all. So perhaps the best thing would be for them to divorce. That way AMU can work on her problems and HB can have all the internet mediated sex he wants. The major sufferers will be their kids, but hey...


When his internet dates figures out he works from home wearing his pjs and his law partner is Jack Black (Daniels), they will bolt too. What a role model for four little girls.

Not sure about AMU, can a woman watch this display and maintain anger control. I'm guessing it takes a lot of noise to get through an alcohol haze. It seems nothing will wake him up. Hopefully, no one will be depending on him if the house catches fire.

Public service announcement. Never use double keyed locks. Six children died in one blaze in Louisville because of double keyed deadbolts.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> Huh? The time between her betrayal and their visit to the MC are FAR away from each other and she was no longer being wayward, the way I read it. She was trying to fix the relationship by going to MC. So you're saying that if your spouse cheats, for the rest of y'all's marriage, you're allowed to go screw other people whenever the FORMER wayward says she doesn't like how the relationship is going?


Ah yes. You are starting to understand some of my frustration here. It seems that for many all cases are the same and all cases have the same cure. All we need do is post this on TAM's home page and close it down as our business is done.


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Sidney, if any of your posts are responses to me, I'm not being rude by not answering them.
> 
> It's just that I have you on ignore so I can't read your posts.


That's fine. That's what the "ignore" button is for!


----------



## clipclop2

Betrayed is acting stubborn and isn't willing to do all of the reading. 

Look Betrayed, you've lost my respect and your thinking and justifications loses my trust. If you really believe what you say and you are not just too stubborn to admit you are wrong I've nothing left to discuss with you. Your values are not shared by me.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

clipclop2 said:


> Betrayed is acting stubborn and isn't willing to do all of the reading.


How do you know what I'm reading, or who I'm in communication with? 




clipclop2 said:


> Look Betrayed, you've lost my respect and your thinking and justifications loses my trust. Your values are not shared by me.


That's cool clipclop. I'm not here to win popularity contests, nor endlessly debate my own assessments and conclusions with those who's psychological filters differ from mine. 

So not sharing your values, or wether I gain or lose your respect makes not the slightest difference to my life, nor will it alter my own logic and reasoning capabilities.


----------



## Harken Banks

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-54.html#post10171689


----------



## NoChoice

Many people on here have commented about the fact that the two parties involved in this thread are both lawyers. As I’ve read, I can see how having been taught and trained to argue to win, without regard to truth, fairness and right and wrong has played out in these posts. So this raises a question in my mind. Many on here, myself included, are “arguing” the case for the Bank’s marriage to survive and become a healthy, happy, warm and inviting atmosphere wherein your four daughters can learn about life and love and gain the ability to create and maintain the same when their time comes to raise their families. In addition to that, a nurturing place where two lone souls can find security, strength, solace and a respite from the stresses and onslaughts of life. What is it that you two are “arguing” for exactly? What is the goal of winning your respective “arguments”? Several years now and this “case” drags on with no resolution. Who wins in this scenario?

As lawyers, HB has argued his case, presented his evidence and put forth a compelling argument. Likewise, AMU has argued her case, put forth her evidence and also presented a compelling argument. However, in this “Banks vs. Life” case who does that leave to argue the Families case? Your daughters? I dare say that they have neither the skill nor the training necessary to argue against two seasoned attorneys nor do they posses the financial reserves to retain counsel that does. So where does that leave them? The two people tasked with the job of protecting and defending their family are so caught up in their own personal little power struggle against one another that the fate of the family is left to chance? I find this unconscionable and so should the two of you. Your skills as legal counsel are no doubt critical to your success whether in a courtroom or at a bargaining table but they have proven to be of little use in securing the health and well-being of your family. Therefore, I would like to direct my next statements to HB the husband and father and to AMU the wife and mother and NOT to their legal counterparts.

Often I see advice given here in which the poster is told that in order to possibly save their marriage they must be willing to lose it. They are advised to implement the 180 technique and fain indifference to their spouse. I would like to propose a different approach that I will call the 360 technique. Instead of turning away and acting as if you don’t care what happens, I suggest that you turn your life completely around, refocus on your spouse and act as though you do care about them more than anything in this world. This approach presumes that both of you want this marriage to work and after the years of posts and all of the negative you have both endured, the fact that you are still “together” compels me to believe that you do.

So then may I suggest this. I would like each of you to get a pencil and paper and go into a secluded room, just the two of you. Now I want you to look each other directly in the eyes and ask each other two questions. Answer honestly and accurately. The correct answers to these questions will be provided at the end of this post. Question 1: What are you willing to sacrifice for our family? Once asked, each of you make a list of all the things you are willing to give up for your family. Now, again looking each other straight in the eye. Question 2: What are you willing to sacrifice our family for? Now make a list of all the things that each of you is willing to give up your family in order to achieve. Now once the lists are completed, gather your daughters together and tell them this; Your Mom and Dad have made a list of the things that we are prepared to sacrifice in order to keep our family together. We have also listed the things that are more important to us than this family and that we are prepared to sacrifice this family for in order to obtain. Then read them the list and explain the items to your daughters, answering any questions that they may have so they can at least have some understanding of where they stand in the eyes of their parents. Now that everyone has a good understanding of the dynamics of this family, proceed as you deem prudent. 

Obviously, I would not want your daughters exposed to any items on the list under question 2, do you? Well whether you realize it or not you are exposing them to it every day. Maybe in a less direct way than what I proposed, then again maybe not but either way they are being exposed to it each day this continues. The sad part is that the damage this may be inflicting may not be realized for years, only manifesting itself when they enter relationships and start their families. All actions have consequences and all adults have to accept the responsibility for their actions and any resultant consequences. What is so tragically sad is that ofttimes those who depend on us for their life lessons also pay the price for our actions.

Okay, you can go back into lawyer mode now and as a lawyer I have one final appeal. Not for the sake of your ego, nor your pride, nor your selfish demands but rather for the sake of the Bank’s family I implore each of you to search deep inside yourself and ask yourself again the questions I had you ask each other before. If you have items under question 2 then examine them closely and be absolutely sure they are as valuable as you have given them credit to be. If they are then so be it. But if you both have the correct answer to question 2 then summon every ounce of strength from deep inside you, combining your strength if necessary, so that each of you can overcome your selfishness, overcome your doubts and fears, overcome your stubbornness, overcome your pain and FIX THIS! Thank you for your time and I sincerely wish you the very best.

Answers to questions 1 and 2 above.

Question 1: Everything

Question 2: Nothing (A blank paper is also acceptable)


----------



## Harken Banks

Thank you, No Choice, for a very thoughtful and insightful post. 

I'm going for a run now with the dog before I have to get cleaned up for lunch with a friend and colleague.

I am a lawyer. It's what I do. It's not who I am. But people are willing to pay good money for my time. 

And I hesitate to get into the weeds. It becomes a place you get lost and cannot find your way out of. I prefer to keep it simple. Maybe that is naive.


----------



## Harken Banks

I am looking forward to this lunch. This friend is an interesting guy. With the absurdist sensibility that comes only out of a fine public school, like Eton. He was born in Argentina, grew up in England, followed about 4 years behind me at Dartmouth, and somehow landed in my neighborhood. We'll talk hedge funds, institutional investor portfolio allocations, maybe some esoteric tax, the secondary market, which is his area, not mine, although of necessity I dabble, and kids. His oldest is a darling boy the same age and in the same class as our 3rd. It will be fun. Being he's from London and all I am going to nudge him towards the hottest of the hot Indian in town.

Oh, and I think he was on a boat in college that is in the rowing hall of fame.


----------



## Harken Banks

He did not disappoint. Thai noodles that I can still feel on my lips. And hilarious conversation. Hilarious and very honest. I promised I would let him know if I was dying as my doctor called during lunch. And, as I called it, we talked about each of the things I listed above, plus Yellowstone and dude ranches and horses. As well as my imminent demise. And his. I left him in stitches. Just a beautiful guy. I should get out more.


----------



## NoChoice

Harken Banks said:


> Thank you, No Choice, for a very thoughtful and insightful post.
> 
> I'm going for a run now with the dog before I have to get cleaned up for lunch with a friend and colleague.
> 
> I am a lawyer. It's what I do. It's not who I am. But people are willing to pay good money for my time.
> 
> And I hesitate to get into the weeds. It becomes a place you get lost and cannot find your way out of. I prefer to keep it simple. Maybe that is naive.


You are sincerely welcome, I only hope it, along with what others have said, strikes a nerve and causes you to maybe see something that has eluded you two thus far. If it helps heal the Banks' family then it will have served its intended purpose.

In regards to what you are I was merely highlighting the fact that we sometimes become so engrossed in what we do that it starts to shape our character outside of work. You are so very right though, your profession is barrister, what you are is a husband and father.

Finally as to your last statement, I respectfully posit that you are most deeply entrenched in the weeds and have been for quite some time. A condition that we all hope that you and your wife can soon rectify. All the best to you and your family.


----------



## Harken Banks

NoChoice said:


> You are sincerely welcome, I only hope it, along with what others have said, strikes a nerve and causes you to maybe see something that has eluded you two thus far. If it helps heal the Banks' family then it will have served its intended purpose.
> 
> In regards to what you are I was merely highlighting the fact that we sometimes become so engrossed in what we do that it starts to shape our character outside of work. You are so very right though, your profession is barrister, what you are is a husband and father.
> 
> Finally as to your last statement, I respectfully posit that you are most deeply entrenched in the weeds and have been for quite some time. A condition that we all hope that you and your wife can soon rectify. All the best to you and your family.



Maybe. I will look again. That is not where I need to be. No one is ever happy there. They just complain and complain and complain about the weeds.


----------



## LongWalk

Hello AMU and Harken,

Hope you are doing better.

Your thread fans are all here, trusting that no news is good news.

Cheers,

LW

p.s. Is Harken letting you read that book or has he expropriated it.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks for the check in, LongWalk. We are doing well right now. As a couple and family. It hasn't been consistently that way and we have pushed each other to and each peered over the brink a few times. Understatement there. But we seem to come back to each other. I think that and this is where we want to be. We are in a good place that feels like home. 

Part of maintaining that for AMU is staying away from here. For my part, I am keeping my journal and sparing a lot of ink. It's been surprisingly easy. Enjoyable even. Quite honestly, I dreaded the thought. But it's been kind of fun. And my soccer game has improved markedly. Sense of well being as well. And I have my way with things work wise more easily, especially when I can see far enough in front of me to read the printed word and remember back enough to have in mind the last thing said. But my golf game has fallen apart. Apparently I cannot play sober. I get all left side and stilted and the entire swing loses its god given mix of grace and measure. The balance of unthinking confidence and unbridled aggression that allows the swing to be the swing and puts the ball pretty much exactly where you have pictured it. I fall into bad habits whiskey had blocked out. AMU asked a few days ago how the game went. Awful. I sat at the kitchen table in semi-despair. I told her I was going to have to re-learn the game sober, that I played the game sober probably the way someone else would play the game drunk, and she thought that was funny or that I was being funny. Maybe I was. I do that without trying or intending. But it wasn't funny to me. It was near tragedy. If I have to chose between playing golf drunk or not playing at all, I do not know what I will do.


----------



## happyman64

I am glad you both are staying away from TAM. I think the distance is good for you.

And if all you have to worry about is your golf game then there is a God and our prayers for you, your wife and your family have been answered. 

Good to hear from you.


HM


----------



## turnera

Sounds like progress, good progress, despite the temporary despair.


----------



## bfree

You are quite humorous Harken. I'm heartened that things are improved.


----------



## LongWalk

Tiger Woods is struggling, too.


----------



## warlock07

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks for the check in, LongWalk. We are doing well right now. As a couple and family. It hasn't been consistently that way and we have pushed each other to and each peered over the brink a few times. Understatement there. But we seem to come back to each other. I think that and this is where we want to be. We are in a good place that feels like home.
> 
> Part of maintaining that for AMU is staying away from here. For my part, I am keeping my journal and sparing a lot of ink. It's been surprisingly easy. Enjoyable even. Quite honestly, I dreaded the thought. But it's been kind of fun. And my soccer game has improved markedly. Sense of well being as well. And I have my way with things work wise more easily, especially when I can see far enough in front of me to read the printed word and remember back enough to have in mind the last thing said. But my golf game has fallen apart. Apparently I cannot play sober. I get all left side and stilted and the entire swing loses its god given mix of grace and measure. The balance of unthinking confidence and unbridled aggression that allows the swing to be the swing and puts the ball pretty much exactly where you have pictured it. I fall into bad habits whiskey had blocked out. AMU asked a few days ago how the game went. Awful. I sat at the kitchen table in semi-despair. I told her I was going to have to re-learn the game sober, that I played the game sober probably the way someone else would play the game drunk, and she thought that was funny or that I was being funny. Maybe I was. I do that without trying or intending. But it wasn't funny to me. It was near tragedy. If I have to chose between playing golf drunk or not playing at all, I do not know what I will do.


So, you have a drinking problem or what ?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> So, you have a drinking problem or what ?


I developed some bad habits in the last 2 years. The last 2 weeks have been different.


----------



## clipclop2

You've done that before though, right? Then right back.


----------



## tom67

clipclop2 said:


> You've done that before though, right? Then right back.


Progress not perfection.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> You've done that before though, right? Then right back.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Yet you say it with such self-assurance. It's been a pattern in these threads.


----------



## wmn1

clipclop2 said:


> You've done that before though, right? Then right back.


you don't know that is the case this time, do you ? I wish him the best of luck and it can be done


----------



## Harken Banks

wmn1 said:


> you don't know that is the case this time, do you ? I wish him the best of luck and it can be done


The predicate is false, so nothing valid can follow. I have to go spend all day on the pitch, so I won't be responding a lot here. Suffice it to say clip clop has no idea what she is talking about. She may have imported a set of assumptions about the circumstance from her own life experience, which from her bitterness cannot have been happy, but they are not mine and they are not AMU's. Yes, clipclop, you strike me as an unhappy person who brings her unhappiness uninvited, unwelcome, and strangely out of place to every interaction. See, now I am projecting a bit based on my experience with some of the hapless and miserable souls who lacking self-awareness visit their unhappiness on everyone they come into contact with expecting sympathy yet eventually just driving everyone away. 

In any event, two weeks ago I decided to make some changes. It was time. So far my resolve and more importantly honesty with myself in this process have held. As I wrote, it has been enjoyable, except for the golf.

A few posts up I referred to a journal and sparing ink. That journal, a ledger of sorts, I keep with myself. Not because anyone asked me to or even suggested it. I keep it as a tool to help me to see myself more clearly. A mirror of sorts that I can hold up to myself. I plan to keep it as long as I feel it is helpful to me in self-assessment and in being honest with myself. 

Soccer now.


----------



## warlock07

> See, now I am projecting a bit based on my experience with some of the hapless and miserable souls who lacking self-awareness visit their unhappiness on everyone they come into contact with expecting sympathy yet eventually just driving everyone away.


That is one long ass line. I had to take a couple of breaks in between.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> The predicate is false, so nothing valid can follow. I have to go spend all day on the pitch, so I won't be responding a lot here. Suffice it to say clip clop has no idea what she is talking about. She may have imported a set of assumptions about the circumstance from her own life experience, which from her bitterness cannot have been happy, but they are not mine and they are not AMU's. Yes, clipclop, you strike me as an unhappy person who brings her unhappiness uninvited, unwelcome, and strangely out of place to every interaction. See, now I am projecting a bit based on my experience with some of the hapless and miserable souls who lacking self-awareness visit their unhappiness on everyone they come into contact with expecting sympathy yet eventually just driving everyone away.
> 
> In any event, two weeks ago I decided to make some changes. It was time. So far my resolve and more importantly honesty with myself in this process have held. As I wrote, it has been enjoyable, except for the golf.
> 
> A few posts up I referred to a journal and sparing ink. That journal, a ledger of sorts, I keep with myself. Not because anyone asked me to or even suggested it. I keep it as a tool to help me to see myself more clearly. A mirror of sorts that I can hold up to myself. I plan to keep it as long as I feel it is helpful to me in self-assessment and in being honest with myself.
> 
> Soccer now.


Harken, when I made the decision to get my life back on track I started a journal as well. Memories tend to be unreliable and can skew the facts in many directions. Writing thoughts down is effective and grounding. Your life is going to be what you make it. Make it a good one.


----------



## clipclop2

You are awfully defensive. You have said that in the past you didn't drink for brief periods of time as support for your contention that you don't have a problem. You are also very good at painting stories to make yourself look good. I don't trust that you are being honest because you lie to yourself and want others to believe your portrayals.

It is good that you are doing better. But your defensiveness doesn't provide a lot of confidence. You have a very low tolerance for criticism of any kind. And all I did was ask a question. 

You are the one who is projecting. Have at it. It is a deflection.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> You are awfully defensive. You have said that in the past you didn't drink for brief periods of time as support for your contention that you don't have a problem. You are also very good at painting stories to make yourself look good. I don't trust that you are being honest because you lie to yourself and want others to believe your portrayals.
> 
> It is good that you are doing better. But your defensiveness doesn't provide a lot of confidence. You have a very low tolerance for criticism of any kind. And all I did was ask a question.
> 
> You are the one who is projecting. Have at it. It is a deflection.


OK. Fine. Explain what this was to mean: "You've done that before though, right? Then right back."

Explain understanding that I have never once before resolved or attempted to change drinking habits. You are writing about someone else. Maybe someone in your life. I don't know. It's not me. It's not AMU.


----------



## clipclop2

I'm not going to chase down your quotes especially when you can't read for meaning very well. I did not suggest that you never once resolved... etc.

I am writing about you. You are reading through clouds of defensiveness and anger. The clouds obscure your ability to understand.


----------



## 2xloser

Harken Banks said:


> In any event, two weeks ago I decided to make some changes. It was time. So far my resolve and more importantly honesty with myself in this process have held.


I for one applaud the progress, awareness, effort, and frankly the bravery to do so AND to come here and "admit" it.

I do not comprehend why anyone cannot simply applaud the effort and apparent short-term results (aside from the golf!), wish you the best in keeping with it and continued progress, feel hope for you and AMU and your girls, and not need to take a swipe at what may or may not come about longer term, regardless of how you got to this point. 

Best wishes; glad to hear it.


----------



## clipclop2

It is great that he had made progress. But he is an alcoholic. I think going to meetings might be in order.


----------



## LongWalk

Come on ClipClop, Harken has taken big steps to change. He admitted he has a problem with alcohol. He is working to end his dependence.


----------



## clipclop2

Again, that's great. But my opinion stands. Alcohol is everywhere and it takes a lot to kick it. It is even harder when you have other issues that cause pain in your life.


----------



## warlock07

clipclop2 said:


> Again, that's great. But my opinion stands. Alcohol is everywhere and it takes a lot to kick it. It is even harder when you have other issues that cause pain in your life.


I think you have nothing useful for the situation here but hate. My opinion also stands.

Forums are everywhere and it only takes registering in one to keep posting angry messages full of hate on another board.

See, this goes both ways ?


----------



## clipclop2

Hate? Wow, that's strong and ridiculous.


----------



## oneMOreguy

But the truth is how you are being perceived unfortunately.....I do think you have clearly stated your concern and I don't see how restating it will be useful or well received.


----------



## clipclop2

well it's unfortunate I think it's being used as a way of trying to silence me as opposed to trying to understand that most alcoholics do not just miraculously get sober. 

its not like it wrecks my day. But I find a really bizarre response.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Well..... it is like all advice given here. .. some is accepted some is outright rejected and some plants a seed that has a later impact. HB is not stupid so he understood what you wrote.... it is now up to him to ponder its usefulness to him right now. Part of the tam back and forth.


----------



## clipclop2

He has shown and admitted that he misreads. Be careful not to answer for him.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> I'm not going to chase down your quotes especially when you can't read for meaning very well. I did not suggest that you never once resolved... etc.
> 
> I am writing about you. You are reading through clouds of defensiveness and anger. The clouds obscure your ability to understand.


OK. Maybe. Because I may be a slow study and my comprehension skills lacking, I will give you another chance to explain. In context, admittedly, I cannot make out another plausible read. 

As for prior writing, I think you may be remembering where I wrote that I had from time to time and recently gone days without a drink. At times when my consumption was excessive. That posted in response to assertions that I could not and simply to refute the mistaken point. Happens. People are mistaken. Isn't a big deal. Never was. A cross-country road trip AMU and I sharing driving responsibility. Vacation spots like Disney or the Tetons where a drink is not in the offering. Working a deal at all hours. No big deal. I do not drink when drinking is not an option and everything is fine.

I am fond of many spirits. Wines and beers. 

Two weeks ago I decided to change the pattern. I feel good about where I am.

I understand that there is a view that I am deluding myself and trying to fool others. That the only salvation is in admitting that I am powerless. 

What I do is up to me.


----------



## clipclop2

I dont think there is a view unless I am the only one stating such.

It's just that it gets harder. The accolades you get at first disappear and then it's just you and not your drink.

It will get harder. Just be aware. Try to have a plan to deal with it. Like, what do you do with the time you used to spend drinking? I suspect you understand that. Time slows down.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> I dont think there is a view unless I am the only one stating such.
> 
> It's just that it gets harder. The accolades you get at first disappear and then it's just you and not your drink.
> 
> It will get harder. Just be aware. Try to have a plan to deal with it. Like, what do you do with the time you used to spend drinking? I suspect you understand that. Time slows down.


OK. Thanks for playing.


----------



## carmen ohio

clipclop2 said:


> I dont think there is a view unless I am the only one stating such.
> 
> It's just that it gets harder. The accolades you get at first disappear and then it's just you and not your drink.
> 
> It will get harder. Just be aware. Try to have a plan to deal with it. Like, what do you do with the time you used to spend drinking? I suspect you understand that. Time slows down.


clipclop2, I really like your recent advice. You were criticized, unfairly, but didn't let that stop you. Good for you! [Originally tried sending this as a PM but your inbox is full.]



Harken Banks said:


> OK. Thanks for playing.


HB, you're a really smart guy in most respects but, unfortunately for you and your loved ones, not when it counts the most. Like most alcoholics, I suspect you won't take your problem(s) seriously until your life is a lot more screwed up than it is right now and, instead, will continue to try to convince yourself and others that you have everything under control with sarcastic remarks like this one. Truth be told, the only person you're fooling is yourself.

So sad.


----------



## Harken Banks

carmen ohio said:


> clipclop2, I really like your recent advice. You were criticized, unfairly, but didn't let that stop you. Good for you! [Originally tried sending this as a PM but your inbox is full.]
> 
> 
> 
> HB, you're a really smart guy in most respects but, unfortunately for you and your loved ones, not when it counts the most. Like most alcoholics, I suspect you won't take your problem(s) seriously until your life is a lot more screwed up than it is right now and, instead, will continue to try to convince yourself and others that you have everything under control with sarcastic remarks like this one. Truth be told, the only person you're fooling is yourself.
> 
> So sad.


Maybe. Maybe not. And maybe there is some value to clipclop's contributions. In any event, she seemed at post #307, which set this recent bit off, to take a completely uninformed or misinformed or just plain mistaken snide, dismissive, and sarcastic cheap shot. One resting on a premise that had no basis in reality. When I called her on it, instead of responding to my pointing out that she had taken a nasty and gratuitous swipe that had nothing to do with anything that had happened in my life but might have had something to do with something in her own, she had the temerity to defend, nay, double down, on her foray into inuendo and character assassination insisting that the problem wasn't that she had written something false, mean, and unhelfpul, but that I was not able to read well enough to understand the truth behind it. Oh. OK. Thanks. Got it, I think. You are not wrong, I am just not equipped to appreciate or accept the ways in which the fiction you have constructed is true. Which probably wouldn't bother me so much except the nasty stuff she is writing is about me and if it's based in falsehood or misapprehension I'll probably correct it every time, public forum or not. 

I did not miss the point of your post and I appreciate it and the concern expressed. I'd take some issue with it, but politely.


----------



## turnera

How's the redirection going, HB?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> How's the redirection going, HB?


So far, so good. Thanks.


----------



## carmen ohio

Harken Banks said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. And maybe there is some value to clipclop's contributions. In any event, she seemed at post #307, which set this recent bit off, to take a completely uninformed or misinformed or just plain mistaken snide, dismissive, and sarcastic cheap shot. One resting on a premise that had no basis in reality. When I called her on it, instead of responding to my pointing out that she had taken a nasty and gratuitous swipe that had nothing to do with anything that had happened in my life but might have had something to do with something in her own, she had the temerity to defend, nay, double down, on her foray into inuendo and character assassination insisting that the problem wasn't that she had written something false, mean, and unhelfpul, but that I was not able to read well enough to understand the truth behind it. Oh. OK. Thanks. Got it, I think. You are not wrong, I am just not equipped to appreciate or accept the ways in which the fiction you have constructed is true. Which probably wouldn't bother me so much except the nasty stuff she is writing is about me and if it's based in falsehood or misapprehension I'll probably correct it every time, public forum or not.
> 
> I did not miss the point of your post and I appreciate it and the concern expressed. I'd take some issue with it, but politely.


Harken,

You write quite eloquently but where you really excel is in obfuscation and denial.

In post #305, Warlock (in typical Warlock fashion) asked you point blank if you have a drinking problem. It was a yes or no question but, instead of answering it, you replied with a deflecting remark:



> _I developed some bad habits in the last 2 years. The last 2 weeks have been different._


clipclop2 called you out with her comment in post #307. There was nothing offensive about what she said (unless you find the truth offensive). But you responded by claiming that she _"has no idea what she is talking about,"_ that her comment came from a place of _"bitterness"_ and that she is one of those _"hapless and miserable souls who lacking self-awareness visit their unhappiness on everyone they come into contact with expecting sympathy yet eventually just driving everyone away."_

This response was so uncalled for and over the top that even you eventually realized it and tried to walk it back a (all the while continuing, of course, to deny the fundamental truth of clipclop2's statement). In post #327, you admitted that you, on occasion, moderate your drinking for a brief period of time _"when drinking is not an option and everything is fine"_ and even admitted (in what is possibly the understatement of the month) that you are _"fond of many spirits."
_
So your statement above that clipclop2



> _had taken a nasty and gratuitous swipe that had nothing to do with anything that had happened in my life but might have had something to do with something in her own, she had the temerity to defend, nay, double down, on her foray into inuendo _(sic)_ and character assassination insisting that the problem wasn't that she had written something false, mean, and unhelfpul _(sic)_, but that I was not able to read well enough to understand the truth behind it_


is pure and utter bullsh*t.

You, sir, are an alcoholic. You may not be willing to admit this in a public forum or perhaps even to your loved ones but, at the very least, admit it to yourself and get help. This was clipclop2's message and it is mine and it is the message that just about everybody else who has posted on this thread has given you.

In any event, stop attacking people, like clipclop2, who are simply trying to help you. It is beneath you.


----------



## nanofaan

AMU what is the latest?


----------



## Harken Banks

carmen ohio said:


> Harken,
> 
> You write quite eloquently but where you really excel is in obfuscation and denial.
> 
> In post #305, Warlock (in typical Warlock fashion) asked you point blank if you have a drinking problem. It was a yes or no question but, instead of answering it, you replied with a deflecting remark:
> 
> clipclop2 called you out with her comment in post #307. There was nothing offensive about what she said (unless you find the truth offensive). But you responded by claiming that she _"has no idea what she is talking about,"_ that her comment came from a place of _"bitterness"_ and that she is one of those _"hapless and miserable souls who lacking self-awareness visit their unhappiness on everyone they come into contact with expecting sympathy yet eventually just driving everyone away."_
> 
> This response was so uncalled for and over the top that even you eventually realized it and tried to walk it back a (all the while continuing, of course, to deny the fundamental truth of clipclop2's statement). In post #327, you admitted that you, on occasion, moderate your drinking for a brief period of time _"when drinking is not an option and everything is fine"_ and even admitted (in what is possibly the understatement of the month) that you are _"fond of many spirits."
> _
> So your statement above that clipclop2
> 
> is pure and utter bullsh*t.
> 
> You, sir, are an alcoholic. You may not be willing to admit this in a public forum or perhaps even to your loved ones but, at the very least, admit it to yourself and get help. This was clipclop2's message and it is mine and it is the message that just about everybody else who has posted on this thread has given you.
> 
> In any event, stop attacking people, like clipclop2, who are simply trying to help you. It is beneath you.


I thought I answered Warlock. I was drinking more than I should. I did not deny it. And it had become problematic and something I wanted to change. So I did.

Clipclock implied snidely that I had tried to change before and this was part of the same old pattern of denial and return to old ways or something. There has been some history of her sticking a thorn in my side. Turnera too. Remember she was convinced that I had invented Caper as a straw wingman and accused me repeatedly of dishonesty (lying) about it and that I couldn't fool her because she was a writer and picked up the nuances, or something. If I have been perceived to defend myself, it is because I have perceived myself to be attacked. Sometimes quite unjustly and unfairly, I think, anyway.

There was not a lot of kindness or accuracy in some of clipclop's and Turnera's prior postings on the subject of me. I can handle it, but I may respond. And I think it is false to equate my response with denial or defensiveness.


----------



## turnera

HB has now accepted his condition and agreed to address it. That's all that matters ATM.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



turnera said:


> HB has now accepted his condition and agreed to address it. That's all that matters ATM.


Agreed. Although the word "condition" kinda bugs me for some reason.


----------



## turnera

I should add, that and AMU addressing HER side as well.


----------



## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> Agreed. Although the word "condition" kinda bugs me for some reason.


The smugness of the whole thing bothers me. Clipclop and Turnera were flat wrong and reckless in a number of things they wrote about me. But now I have accepted that they were right all along and I am playing nice and duly contrite. No. That is not it. And I do not buy that they were and are only trying to help me, as Carmen has concluded. No big deal. I never solicited or wanted their help. But I think they enjoy being judgmental and throwing stones from a safe place in the crowd. It's human nature. Makes us feel better by comparison, except when we examine the cowardliness of it. So, Carmen, in this and other threads where I am being pretty open, frank, and honest about a number of very personal topics, some will take some pot shots that take the conversation on frolic and detour through the land not true. I get tired of the exercise and call a few of them out for their shenanigans and ceaseless badgering. And in your view I am attacking them. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## carmen ohio

turnera said:


> HB has now accepted his condition and agreed to address it. That's all that matters ATM.


Actually, it's not the only thing that matters. Being truthful about oneself and treating others decently also matter.

However, if HB has accepted that he has a problem and sought help, that is wonderful.


----------



## turnera

You can attack me all you want; makes no difference to me. IMO, you deserved the badgering for your insistence on redirecting all light from you when AMU was clearly in as much, if not more, pain from this marriage. And I wasn't 'enjoying' being judgmental; I was trying to get you to your tipping point since you were being so stubborn; which you eventually did, for whatever reason. Your relationship has a chance of surviving now; as long as AMU also looks at her side and agrees to meet in the middle, you two might even become happy.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> You can attack me all you want; makes no difference to me. IMO, you deserved the badgering for your insistence on redirecting all light from you when AMU was clearly in as much, if not more, pain from this marriage. And I wasn't 'enjoying' being judgmental; I was trying to get you to your tipping point since you were being so stubborn; which you eventually did, for whatever reason. Your relationship has a chance of surviving now; as long as AMU also looks at her side and agrees to meet in the middle, you two might even become happy.


You clearly have little to offer in the way of insight into our marriage. AMU's pain does not find its root in our marriage, although it makes its home pretty much everywhere.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> The smugness of the whole thing bothers me. Clipclop and Turnera were flat wrong and reckless in a number of things they wrote about me. But now I have accepted that they were right all along and I am playing nice and duly contrite. No. That is not it. And I do not buy that they were and are only trying to help me, as Carmen has concluded. No big deal. I never solicited or wanted their help. But I think they enjoy being judgmental and throwing stones from a safe place in the crowd. It's human nature. Makes us feel better by comparison, except when we examine the cowardliness of it. So, Carmen, in this and other threads where I am being pretty open, frank, and honest about a number of very personal topics, some will take some pot shots that take the conversation on frolic and detour through the land not true. I get tired of the exercise and call a few of them out for their shenanigans and ceaseless badgering. And in your view I am attacking them. Thanks for the insight.


I hammered you a little about your drinking as well but I forgave myself because I never claimed not to be an azzhole. I do and did acknowledge that although you said you did enjoy your drink you never once claimed that you were pleased with yourself with how much and how often you imbibed. On the contrary you maintained from the getgo that you also felt you needed to tone it down. As an intelligent thoughtful man I had faith that you were going to address your "condition" so I moved on to other thoughts. And for the record I appreciate your literary style. I take it as a challenge to my reading comprehension and I certainly prefer it to some of the more choppy posts often seen here on TAM.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> AMU's pain does not find its root in our marriage,


A traumatized survivor of alcoholism living with a high-level alcoholic and none of her pain is from your marriage? Uh, ok.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> A traumatized survivor of alcoholism living with a high-level alcoholic and none of her pain is from your marriage? Uh, ok.


AMU has serious control and rage and anger issues. Very serious. Terrifying and tryannical, even. They did not arise in our marriage. If you want me to be more express, she is a victim of those. As am I. As are our children. As are other relations. They cannot and should not be pinned on me or them. That is unhelpful nonsense, your sarcasm and condescension notwithstanding.


----------



## turnera

I have consistently said that BOTH of you bring problems to the marriage. Not even an hour ago, I said that you're doing your part, now AMU needs to do hers.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> I have consistently said that BOTH of you bring problems to the marriage. Not even an hour ago, I said that you're doing your part, now AMU needs to do hers.


Turnera, I want to be polite because now and then you seem to want to extend an olive branch, but you (and Clipclop and some others maybe) repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand, in fact have no idea, what is going on in our marriage. Some appropriate modesty on that front would be refreshing. 

It's like you import whole sets of assumptions and facts that don't fit and from there offer your conviction and condemnation. You'll write things that fly in the face of the history available here with a disapproving and self-satisfied harrumph. It would be funny if it weren't so tiresome. It's not so hard to follow, but it's like you have no interest except to expound your one-size fits all view and prescription.


----------



## turnera

I'm sorry you feel that way. Agree to disagree.


----------



## Harken Banks

Also, and in case it was lost in the history, AMU knew exactly who I was more than 10 years before we first spoke. And in my view and for me, drinking became a problem only in the last 2 or 3 years and only in the aftermath of all this sh*t that fills this forum. It's on me to make my life what I think it should be. And I'll listen to the dictates and moralizing or preaching of none.


----------



## LongWalk

So how are things going? Is it fair to say your marriage is in a new situation?

Did AMU finish the book?


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> So how are things going? Is it fair to say your marriage is in a new situation?
> 
> Did AMU finish the book?


Things are good. Really good. Just with the girls and what's going on with school and soccer and friends and, well, everything. Another all day on the pitch yesterday and a quiet morning at home to start today. 

Things are in a new situation, but the situations are always new. And transient. It's transiency that I have acclimated to. That was one of my first lessons. I was a reluctant study. But I learned quickly that no matter how I feel now or what in the moment I think of the marriage and it's prospects, like it or not, mostly not, I will be in a different place before I know I have left the last.

I do not know about the book.


----------



## happyman64

*



It's on me to make my life what I think it should be.

Click to expand...

*Yes it is. 

Have you decided if you are ready to be an active participant in making your life and your families life better?


----------



## Chaparral

Have you quit drinking yet?


----------



## Harken Banks

Chaparral said:


> Have you quit drinking yet?


No.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken,

The fact that you answer that question honestly with one simple word and no defensive justification is really positive. Keep cutting back until you master the addiction.

Hope your health is improving.

Skiing starts soon.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Skiing starts soon.


So much looking forward to this. Which has not always been the case. And we still have some soccer ahead.


----------



## nanofaan

AMU anything new?


----------



## LongWalk

Maybe AMU will ski more this year


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Maybe AMU will ski more this year


And play some pong.


----------



## warlock07

Things got better after you got banned and stopped posting


----------



## Harken Banks

Well, my WW has pretty much doubled down on my AP was Hot! Hot! Hot! And you are an *******. What say the forum?


----------



## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> Well, my WW has pretty much doubled down on my AP was Hot! Hot! Hot! And you are an *******. What say the forum?


What did she call you?


----------



## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> Well, my WW has pretty much doubled down on my AP was Hot! Hot! Hot! And you are an *******. What say the forum?


Warlock, had you spent a few minutes in my kitchen while I was making dinner you would have been running for the hills and hiding anyone under your skirts who would fit. Pretty sure no one knows this hell except for me and the girls.


----------



## Harken Banks

bandit.45 said:


> What did she call you?


Well, of course things that will be blanked out. It should be frightful except I am conditioned to indifference.


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Things got better after you got banned and stopped posting


I would not say so. It's like having tape over your mouth. And the whole thing was so silly. If you look back you will see that some or a few were accusing me of lying and yet they were lying and or just stupid or most likely both and got me banned.


----------



## turnera

lol, I'm stupid AND lying...

Yet it was you who decided you needed to temper your drinking.


----------



## bfree

Let's stop. It's not helping.

Harken, did AMU say that just recently? I thought things were going well? Not that what she said was justified but what set her off?


----------



## warlock07

Harken Banks said:


> I would not say so. It's like having tape over your mouth. And the whole thing was so silly. If you look back you will see that some or a few were accusing me of lying and yet they were lying and or just stupid or most likely both and got me banned.


Dangers of taking advice from a free for all forum.

The forum was no longer helping you at that point and I don't think it ever will for you.


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Things got better after you got banned and stopped posting


You are right about this. It's a place I can talk to the wind. Better if the words were all carried away. 

So, yeah, I don't know. AMU seems to feel the need to tell me every now and then that the object of her late-onset teenage fixation is hot! Like make your pants a messy stew hot! Perfectly what I need. That said as I watch the words on the wall and think about them.


----------



## LongWalk

You mean she is going on about the guy she had the EA with? Now? After all this time? To taunt you?


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> You mean she is going on about the guy she had the EA with? Now? After all this time? To taunt you?


Yes. That. I don't know quite what to make of it or whether I care anymore except that I should probably pay attention and register a bit. The last several weeks especially she seems to want to bring this up, as if to rub my nose in it. She is quite honestly invited to make her life with this guy. It might be funny to watch from a safe distance.

Every now and then, someone will start a thread about how "they just don't get it." Because you can't grab hold of them for a minute to say "if you had any idea how badly you just f*cked all this up . . .." And none of them do. Yeah, sometimes there is some play acting. All the talk around here of remorse I think is nonsense. We have all fallen through the looking glass into this weird dream where everything is untethered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgKz5pgARcg


----------



## LongWalk

Well, I don't believe he is anything to her now. Too much has happened in your lives. You are getting the drink out of your life and maybe she wants to give you a shxt test to make you fail or to make you tougher or whatever.

Don't let this impulsive attack dissuade you from sobriety.

From what AMU has said before some sex appeal competition is not the issue in your relationship.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



LongWalk said:


> Well, I don't believe he is anything to her now. Too much has happened in your lives. You are getting the drink out of your life and maybe she wants to give you a shxt test to make you fail or to make you tougher or whatever.
> 
> Don't let this impulsive attack dissuade you from sobriety.
> 
> From what AMU has said before some sex appeal competition is not the issue in your relationship.


Yeah but to force him to trigger purposefully...I can't think of anything more cruel.


----------



## Harken Banks

I think you guys are pretty much right. It's tantrum behavior. I don't think I have trigger left in me. Some occasional anger and disbelief, sometimes amusement. But not pain. There was a lot of pain, but just isn't there anymore. Which brings me back to she doesn't get it and never did. Has no appreciation of what was and now is not. Really did seem to think I overreacted to the whole thing and now thinks it is something she has over me.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Yes. That. I don't know quite what to make of it or whether I care anymore except that I should probably pay attention and register a bit. The last several weeks especially she seems to want to bring this up, as if to rub my nose in it.


AMU, what's up with this? Why would you do this?


----------



## LongWalk

People say mean shxt to provoke. Don't reply in kind. Stay the course.

AMU is struggling. Aren't we all?


----------



## Harken Banks

I should not have called you a liar, I was loose with my words. Not an idiot either. Exasperating would have been a better choice.


----------



## turnera

I'll take that.


----------



## warlock07

What is the context? Why is she bringing him up? Seems weird..


Does she want you to lose your sh!t?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> What is the context? Why is she bringing him up?


I'm not sure. Because she is angry and wants me to know is my best guess at the moment. The context is anything that makes her angry, which is pretty much everything. The striking thing to me is that she apparently has no appreciation. She seems to think this is a well she can go to. It killed whatever was the heart of our marriage. A long time ago. So now we have an arrangement. And she doesn't get it.


----------



## pidge70

Sounds like Joe. I wish you guys well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Harken Banks said:


> I'm not sure. Because she is angry and wants me to know is my best guess at the moment. The context is anything that makes her angry, which is pretty much everything. The striking thing to me is that she apparently has no appreciation. She seems to think this is a well she can go to. It killed whatever was the heart of our marriage. A long time ago. So now we have an arrangement. And she doesn't get it.





counseling? Before things get bad again?


there must be a particular reason though...Something that happened, something that you did...What was it?


----------



## warlock07

pidge70 said:


> Sounds like Joe. I wish you guys well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:nono:


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> counseling? Before things get bad again?
> 
> 
> there must be a particular reason though...Something that happened, something that you did...What was it?


No. Just anger. It's a condition. Like the geysers at Yellowstone. They froth and bubble and erupt, makes no sense to ask them why.


----------



## Pluto2

Harken Banks said:


> I'm not sure. Because she is angry and wants me to know is my best guess at the moment. The context is anything that makes her angry, which is pretty much everything. The striking thing to me is that she apparently has no appreciation. She seems to think this is a well she can go to. It killed whatever was the heart of our marriage. A long time ago. So now we have an arrangement. And she doesn't get it.


Indifference in a relationship is not a good thing, my friend.


----------



## Harken Banks

Pluto2 said:


> Indifference in a relationship is not a good thing, my friend.


Well, as I wrote, I believe that what we have is an arrangement.


----------



## warlock07

Was she happy when you gave up the bottle?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Was she happy when you gave up the bottle?



Well, I did not give it up. I just replaced the cork now and then. 

That took away some of the softballs I had become accustomed throwing her way. So there was that for a bit. Plus a bit of confusion. Like it's not fair to change the rules mid game. Then back to the same old.


----------



## Pluto2

Have the girls heard any of this?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> I think you guys are pretty much right. It's tantrum behavior. I don't think I have trigger left in me. Some occasional anger and disbelief, sometimes amusement. But not pain. There was a lot of pain, but just isn't there anymore. Which brings me back to she doesn't get it and never did. Has no appreciation of what was and now is not. Really did seem to think I overreacted to the whole thing and now thinks it is something she has over me.


This post seriously brought a tear to my eye. You say there is no pain. I won't disagree with you. But there is definitely abject sadness.


----------



## warlock07

Any chance you might give counseling another go ?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Any chance you might give counseling another go ?


There is a chance. I am open to it, but I don't put any stock in it.


----------



## LongWalk

It's getting close to Thanksgiving. AMU is pre triggering over the last turkey.

Harken,

Just soldier on with the sobriety and you will be able to evaluate the situation with her.

The fact that she has grasped for this particular attack suggests that she has run out of material to complain about with regards to you. Take it as a backwards compliment.

What are you reading to your daughters right now?


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> It's getting close to Thanksgiving. AMU is pre triggering over the last turkey.
> 
> Harken,
> 
> Just soldier on with the sobriety and you will be able to evaluate the situation with her.
> 
> The fact that she has grasped for this particular attack suggests that she has run out of material to complain about with regards to you. Take it as a backwards compliment.
> 
> What are you reading to your daughters right now?


We were watching the world series and playoffs the past few weeks but it is birthday season and our newly 8 year old received among other things Charlotte's Web and The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. A Glimpse of Nothingness, The Empty Mirror, and The Adventures of Tom Sawyer for our 13-year old. Plus some other stuff.


----------



## Harken Banks

She was griping about having to read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court for school and was convinced that Twain was miserable which is why Tom Sawyer. Girl has to start to do some living.

Plus I also got her the full set of Pink Panther movies. Some skis. And so on.


----------



## bandit.45

So Hark, how long can you and the old lady keep this up? I've sat back and watched. I've been waiting for the little dwarf clowns to come scurrying out of the wings in their little miniature cars, throwing confetti and honking their little horns....

Is your everyday life actually like this?


----------



## Harken Banks

bandit.45 said:


> So Hark, how long can you and the old lady keep this up? I've sat back and watched. I've been waiting for the little dwarf clowns to come scurrying out of the wings in their little miniature cars, throwing confetti and honking their little horns....
> 
> Is your everyday life actually like this?


It is. It's hilarious. I'm laughing at it all as I type.


----------



## LongWalk

When a couple are drowning they reach out and pull each other under. It is reflexive.

You both have suffered. You both have sacrificed. Love was shown for many years. 

I recommended the auto biography of Carver Burk because she lived with the writer during the hard times. She never experienced much if the sober man. That went to another woman.

Whether or not your marriage will survive and become a source of joy is uncertain.

Remember the other drowning. As soon as you have a grip on something, even a foot on the sandy bottom, fight to draw the other with you.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> When a couple are drowning they reach out and pull each other under. It is reflexive.
> 
> You both have suffered. You both have sacrificed. Love was shown for many years.
> 
> I recommended the auto biography of Carver Burk because she lived with the writer during the hard times. She never experienced much if the sober man. That went to another woman.
> 
> Whether or not your marriage will survive and become a source of joy is uncertain.
> 
> Remember the other drowning. As soon as you have a grip on something, even a foot on the sandy bottom, fight to draw the other with you.


Thank you. As always. I am throwing the rope. Again every day even as I need one thrown my way but don't have the strength or lack of humility to ask. I am not Ray Carver. I think he must have been an insufferable a**. AMU is not Maryann. It does a grave disservice to all to suggest, much less draw, any comparison.


----------



## bandit.45

I once heard a story about a construction company owner who a bunch of my coworkers knew. He was married to his wife for forty years or so. After their kids grew up she went out and got herself a boyfriend. She was unapologetic and kept on with the affair. After it was over he tried to reconcile with her for years, but she was cold as ice and was just living in the marriage out of spite. 

Then, without her knowing, he sold the company, cashed in his assets, gave all the cash to several missionary groups, then drove out to the country and hanged himself in a friend's barn. Left her penniless. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## LongWalk

Uplifting, Bandit. But we are living in an age when the government until this month has moved 86 billion dollars to 20 select banks (reliable ones that Feb and SEC officials can get jobs at after leaving govt service) in the so-called QE.

No wonder people look for scorched earth come backs.

re: the Carvers
Not trying to cast anyone in a fictional role. 

re: the books your kids have
I'll bet you can find relief when you are reading to them.


----------



## warlock07

Harken Banks said:


> She was griping about having to read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court for school and was convinced that Twain was miserable which is why Tom Sawyer. Girl has to start to do some living.
> 
> Plus I also got her the full set of Pink Panther movies. Some skis. And so on.


Who ? AMU ?


----------



## 2xloser

bfree said:


> Yeah but to force him to trigger purposefully...I can't think of anything more cruel.


Totally agree. Would really like to understand where it came from and why, especially from AMU. Throughout all of this surreal drama, this one I'd just not be able to accept as anything other than intentionally cruel. And if true, that is intolerable.


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Who ? AMU ?


Our 13 year old daughter. She had been reading a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court for one of her classes and had soured on Twain. So I got her Tom Sawyer. Plus the Zen-lite stuff. And the Pink Panther. Plus the skis and stuff. It was an interesting conversation that inspired all of this.


----------



## oneMOreguy

HB....hope you are doing ok.......I grow concerned that your way of coping with all of this is to not confront it directly and eventually bury it inside. It took me quite a while to realize that my efforts to deal with problems with intellect alone really didn't fix things well and led to a lot of circular logic with me then burying stuff out of frustration. I guess I am suggesting an IC if you are not doing so already......but not one who is just there to listen to you......to work there has to be a lot of back and forth.

anyway....best wishes.


----------



## Harken Banks

oneMOreguy said:


> HB....hope you are doing ok.......I grow concerned that your way of coping with all of this is to not confront it directly and eventually bury it inside. It took me quite a while to realize that my efforts to deal with problems with intellect alone really didn't fix things well and led to a lot of circular logic with me then burying stuff out of frustration. I guess I am suggesting an IC if you are not doing so already......but not one who is just there to listen to you......to work there has to be a lot of back and forth.
> 
> anyway....best wishes.


Thank you. I started out with a jaundiced view of the counseling thing. I cannot say my experiences with it has done anything thing to brighten. I believe in it less for having tried. I'm not that smart. I just have a facility with words. And sports. And some other stuff, but I have no elevated view of myself. I don't believe in talking things out. It seems to me to lead to entrenchment.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Well....just try not to bury it too deep. I know you are somewhat conflicted on where your path leads. Amu seems to be a challenge. Just like I am the challenge in my marriage I suppose.


----------



## LongWalk

The counselor has to be good.


----------



## warlock07

And a good counselor for one couple can be a very bad one for another couple, depending on what the couple needs and a couple believes, along with the counselor's own personal agenda(money, religion, gender etc).

How did you pick your former counselor ?


----------



## Harken Banks

There have been a few. The first and who became my individual counselor for a while I picked because I liked the name of her firm and her schedule was open when I called. And she was about our age. I also wanted a woman's perspective. Our first marriage counselor was a pinch hitter conscripted in a time of desperation. Good guy, smart guy. Pretty much said I had to let it go even as it was going on. I liked him a lot, but as soon as I understood that was his advice I had had enough. Then we had a woman a bit older than us who I think is good at marriage counseling. She was recommended by my wife's counselor, I think. Or maybe one of my wife's friends. I don't remember entirely.


----------



## warlock07

Does AMU respond positively to criticism ?


1) when it is from you

2) When it is from others.


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Does AMU respond positively to criticism ?
> 
> 
> 1) when it is from you
> 
> 2) When it is from others.


I do not know. I think that I do not, so it is not veiled criticism. Sometimes she takes things in and considers them. Sometimes I do too. Probably less than she does.


----------



## AMU

Warning - LONG READ. I haven’t been on this site for some time, as I do not find it helpful for me. And I don’t think it helps our relationship much at all. Several months ago I posted after I got frustrated with the one sided advice that was being given without anyone understanding the alcohol abuse. I know HB believes that this isn’t the cause of our marriage issues, but I disagree, as I believe it has played a very, very large role. But being here and reading here brings me down, as I find so much of it depressing and sad. What I find helpful is focusing on the positive things in my life to lift my spirits - spending time with the kids, reading, photography and I’ve recently started running again after 12 years away. I do make efforts and suggestions about 1-1 time with HB, but most overtures like going to lunch, watching a movie together are rejected. Because of the things happening with HB over the past week, I thought I’d take a look to see what is out there on this site and once again I find my heart beating fast to see the crazy slant of things.

I posted back on 9/18 about a good talk HB and I had, including some committed actions. I didn’t go into specifics, as I was worried he wouldn’t follow through. He has told me that when I ask him to do something, his reaction is to do the opposite. This time he made a commitment to go to the doctor and I was so thrilled. I had shared with him how scared I was about what he was doing to his life with alcohol and that I was scared that he was killing himself. His response was that he sometimes thought that indirectly he was with his actions. We both were in tears and I was absolutely terrified. For the first time, I was worried my husband was suicidal. He agreed to go to the doctor, get a physical and talk to her about his alcohol use. And over the next several days he assured me that he would never do anything to harm himself, but that when he mentioned he may be trying to kill himself he meant only through his drinking because he was so depressed. 

He did get bloodwork and that physical and the results were scary – his liver enzymes were five times the recommended amount and his ASL number was three times his ALT number, which is suggestive of alcoholic liver disease. His liver was also enlarged to the touch. He also admitted to the doctor how much he was drinking (actually he underreported then and said it was a 1.75 liter bottle every 3 days and when he went for his recheck on 10/27, he admitted it was every 2 days or less). She told him that it would not be a happy ending if he didn’t get those numbers back down.

HB said he didn’t want to go through detox so the doctor asked him to cut his consumption in half and come back for a recheck in 4 weeks. HB did even better than that – so much better that I was truly worried about his withdrawal symptoms and asked him to discuss with the doctor. He went from 20+ drinks a day to an average of 4-8, measuring his servings in a measuring cup, and recording each drink in a journal. On most days, he didn’t start drinking until 4 or 5, instead of being the first thing he did in the morning. At night, he was tossing and turning and having horrible night sweats – so bad that he soaked completely through our comforter cover and the heavy down comforter and his pillow soaked all the way through the pillow to the bed and he definitely wasn’t sleeping well. 

At the same time I saw such a wonderful overall change. During the days he was alert and seemed happy. He went to the office many days. He was more helpful and attentive with the kids, came out to dinner with us (for years he typically stays home and I’d go out alone with the kids several times a week), didn’t pass out on the couch or in their beds in the early evening. On the couple of nights he did, he said the next day that he had overdone it and knew he needed to do better. We still had arguments and he was ultra-sensitive to anything I said or did, but he was also receptive to talk things through. And he said it was so much more enjoyable than he had feared -that he knew he was one step away from disaster at work or home and it had been a good change. 

During this time I asked him why he was still actively looking at women’s profiles on match.com. Ever since he had the 8 month back and forth with ex-GF culminating in their 1-1 meetings, I have periodically checked his computer. This is how I was aware of his initial set-up of the match.com account. He views match.com profiles, I see it in the history, and if I check the next day, the history has often been deleted. The evening of 10/6, I decided to take a look at his after he went to bed – he had been doing searches of women in the area and had pulled up and read about 15 profiles that day. It was depressing to think that my husband was fairly sober but still continuing to spend his days perusing the files of other women and maintaining a paid for, active match.com account. ModelMayhem, where his exGF keeps her portfolio, was also open in his history (not sure if it was for her or someone else). 

The next morning after the kids were at school, I asked him why he continued to actively search and look at the profiles of single women in the area. He said he didn’t know, he was bored and it made him feel good. I told him that I found it very hurtful and then my next response was not a good one. I said “I wasn’t going to tell you this, but recently when I was downloading pics on the kids’ computer, I started typing an online search and AP’s name popped up (note - it was the kids' computer and I have never done any online search for him in the past 2.5 years, so that had to have been from HB, as it was previously his computer and he has talked to AP several times since then). So I clicked on the link to his facebook page and I saw a pic of him during a race in the mud and he looked hot.” Stupid and vengeful, I know. I was hurt and I tried to hurt him back. It is the first time, to my recollection, that I have ever brought up AP around HB. We have certainly talked about him, but only when HB raised the topic. And HB has brought that comment up several times in the past few weeks – it was never been raised again by me. So I’m not sure why he says in this thread I’ve been making a big deal about him being “hot, hot, hot” when I brought it up once and only once. Once too many, to be sure.

That day (Oct 7th), HB contacted a divorce mediator and changed all his passwords, including his Verizon account so I can no longer access his phone and text records (that was how I knew he was back in touch with ex-GF in July). On Oct 8th we had an initial meeting with a counselor for our daughters, who we both believe need some help to work through the turmoil of our family. She was very concerned about our situation and said regardless, she felt we should go back to our former counselor, regardless of whether it was for marriage or divorce counseling. I expressed surprise that there would be something called divorce counseling and she said we needed to be able to work through thing together, regardless of whether or not we were together. 

HB didn’t pursue the mediator after that meeting and things were going well. Although he kept his passwords changed and secret, he still usually leaves his computer open and unlocked on the kitchen table, so I can still see his history and Facebook pages.

On Oct 24th, HB completed his follow up blood test, after rocking the month long alcohol cut-back. He then went to his office afterward and starting drinking. I called mid-day to talk to him and his secretary had to page him twice – when he answered he sounded like he just awoke. By the time he got home that night (which happened to be our oldest’s 13th birthday), he was drunk and slurring his words. He asked her twice what she wanted to do for her birthday, when he knew (or had previously known), she was going to a school dance. After a soccer tournament on Sat morning/early afternoon, he continued his drinking for the rest of Sat and all day Sunday. 

He went to his follow up appt on Monday to see how things were. He didn’t call and when he came in the door that night I immediately asked how it went. No response – he just handed me two papers and walked away with a smirk. I was thrilled to see that not only had his numbers gone down, but they were BOTH in the normal range! I told him that was wonderful and he just smiled and said the doctor had never seen anything like it. I asked if he had told her about the non-stop drinking throughout the weekend and he said he hadn’t, but that he had shared that he had underreported his drinking when he was there initially and that it was more like a liter a day before. Since then, the heavy drinking has continued. Maybe not as much as in the past, but a lot – certainly a lot more than the “test month.” I’m not sure why he posted on his own thread that:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-59.html#post10779354
because I was so excited for the results. I don’t want him to die or hurt himself – that was the reason I urged him to see the doctor in the first place. I do worry that he feels he is now invincible and can drink what he wants as long as it’s not a liter a day. And his behavior since last Monday when he received the results has not been one of a husband who wants to moderate his alcohol or stay married.

On Oct 29th, he reached back out to ex-GF via Facebook again. He told her about what he referred to as his recent “experiment with moderate drinking” and said he had been “coping in part by drinking a liter or two of Jack Daniels a day for a good 3 or 4 years. That might seem like exaggeration, but it isn’t. I was more than a little afraid of what I would discover when I opened my eyes to something other than a drink. To my surprise and delight, it has been an enjoyable stretch.” She complimented him on his success and for sharing with her. She said she had been concerned about seeing a recent picture of him on Facebook and urged him to take care of himself. His response was to say “Love you. Which is not meant as provocation or anything else. Just so.” 

Absolute gut punch. Why? Because I am the only woman to whom he has ever in his life, outside his immediate family, said “I love you” or “love you.” He asked me to marry him one month before he was able to utter the words “I love you.” When I asked him why he was able to ask me to marry him without saying that he loved me, he said he didn’t know – that he hadn’t ever been able to say those words to anyone. And now, the woman who I’ve repeatedly asked him not to contact, who has proclaimed her love for him, who continues to love him and has never married because no one else has measured up, has received a “love you” from my husband. I cannot even describe how much pain those two words have created – at a time I thought I was almost immune to his antics.

And on Oct 30th, he reopened his match.com account to the public. Posted photos and put himself out there for the world as an individual who was separated. He specifically states “As to my status, I am still married but our divorce is in process and probably will be for some time. Some baggage to be sure, but it has been several years in the making and not a sudden thing.” Interesting, because at the same time, we were home cooking for the kids together, he met us out about two hours into trick or tricking and we drove home together and he ordered out/picked up for the two of us, acting as if nothing was up (I’m confident he had no idea I knew he had reopened his online account). Over the weekend he posted two more pictures and e-mailed with various women (all while hanging out as a family at home, going to the movies together), including reaching out to the first woman he went out with last January – the woman he felt up while she grabbed his crotch in a heated make-out session in the car afterward. He learned she recently broke up with someone, is heartbroken and wants to get together this week for a drink. He said he will drink and she can talk. No date set yet, and he’s also e-mailing with another woman who he encouraged to send him a picture. This morning he pulled all his pictures off the site, but kept up his profile, “liking” different profiles and having online match.com chats. 

So that is where we are. Talk about depressing.


----------



## Harken Banks

Not all of that is right, but none of it is worth denying.


----------



## oneMOreguy

The poor behaviors from both of you seem to be more coping and payback stuff than anything else......now it has evolved to chicken or the egg re who started it. Both of you are hurting....get real help either together or alone. Both of you are at fault and both are victims. Just stop trying to prove who is the real villian. You both have a hand in this. I'll kept you guys in my prayers.


----------



## LongWalk

AMU,

Glad you came back! Much of what you write seems to jive with what Harken has written.

There are two thing going on in your lives. You need to separate the real progress from the back sliding. The effort Harken made to gain some measure of control over his drinking was impressive. Lets hope that he redoubles the effort.

Why has the positive not translated into other areas?

Could it be that once he cut back drinking he saw how much work the two of you have before you to repair your marriage and he doesn't feel that the two of you have the strength or will to do it?

If Harken is dating online that is just escapism. He may not consider it real cheating – although it is. Is he looking for an ego boost? Is he trying to provoke you into filing for divorce so that he can feel sorry for himself and drink freely again?

Right now you are both saying stuff to hurt each other. In truth neither of you are healthy enough to start a new romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex. That is a lonely feeling, seeing your marriage in trouble and wondering what the future holds.

Do you – and this a question to you both – admit that your capacity to live up to your own standards is diminished? How can you get help or help each other?


----------



## turnera

AMU, thank you for coming back. Just so you know, I believe what you write. But I still have a question for you. ARE you blowing up at him and the kids? Because if you are, this is an area where you simply MUST put in the work to change. Please don't leave this legacy for your girls.

And can I ask you to do one more thing? Can you start having more meals at home? Even if you have to pick up ready made meals, take them home and eat them at the dinner table. Your kids NEED that sanity from you - eating at the dinner table and getting some semblance of a real family.


----------



## warlock07

AMU, he wants you to file for divorce.. The "You gave up, not me" war has become ridiculous.


----------



## warlock07

There is no more love left. 

AMU, as much as I sympathize with your situation, you come off as a tattle tale in your narration.


HB, do both of you a favor.


----------



## bfree

I still can't get past AMU lauding her affair partner at Harken. Even if it was done in the heat of the moment it tells me that she really doesn't get it and I question the validity of her remorse.


----------



## turnera

Not me. I get someone who's been hurt over and over again - just like him - who knows nothing else but to hurt back. Very primeval - and common - reaction.


----------



## happyman64

bfree said:


> I still can't get past AMU lauding her affair partner at Harken. Even if it was done in the heat of the moment it tells me that she really doesn't get it and I question the validity of her remorse.


No Bfree. They both don't get it.

Their relationship has detoriated to the point of slinging hate at each other on a daily basis.

But what sad is that it is hurting their family.

It is like two jaded lovers fighting each other while standing on the deck of the Titanic as it sinks.

And neither of them are willing to put on a life preserver nor throw each other a life ring.

Come on you two. Your both better than this......


----------



## Harken Banks

Boredom, I guess. Our marriage was not good before all this started. Affectionless, cold, barren, harsh, vicious. All of that before my wife went out to the beach with this guy. It wasn't fun and was taking a toll on me. But marriage is marriage. That's what you do. Then this happened and you know the rest then I had an honest moment. It wasn't going to get any better. And where it was was killing me.

AMU is a good person. Our marriage is hell.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Until, personal demons are solved, and there are two healthy people in a marriage, the marriage is limping along. Love is not enough to stay together. Who know.


Maybe one day after going through each of your own personal journey and growth, you might not end up being compatible anymore. It happens. People change and wants and needs change. Or maybe, you'll end up finding that want and need in each other again. Life is always in flux, and our end product that we become doesn't happen until the day we die. Each day we change, and we are not the same person we are yesterday. Hopefully more knowledge and wisdom is gained.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken,

It is clear that when AMU said that she hoped that you would die of cirrhosis of the liver what she was really saying was:

"You ****ing selfish b*stard, you're going to die swilling whisky and leave me alone with the girls. I hate you for doing this, so I am telling to you go ahead and do it. Of course, I wish you would wake up and save yourself for everyone's sake."

OM being hot is just a barb. Your dating profile is just a stab back.

Did you record the increase in consumption in your log book? Go back and fill it in accurately.

AMU keep running.

Give Harken a hug once a day. Get the girls together and ambush him with affection. He is a sentimental guy. It may help him on the road to breaking it off with his Scottish mistress.

A goal Harken my buddy – four days without a drink once the ski season starts. Friday, nothing. You drive. Saturday coaching. Hot chocolate. Sunday coaching coffee. You drive. Monday nothing to prove that you can make in the home environment. Tuesday one beer. Or none if you can.

Patti Smith


----------



## LongWalk

Harken Banks said:


> Boredom, I guess. Our marriage was not good before all this started. Affectionless, cold, barren, harsh, vicious. All of that before my wife went out to the beach with this guy. It wasn't fun and was taking a toll on me. But marriage is marriage. That's what you do. Then this happened and you know the rest then I had an honest moment. It wasn't going to get any better. And where it was was killing me.
> 
> AMU is a good person. Our marriage is hell.


It will take the two of you change it.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Harken,
> 
> It is clear that when AMU said that she hoped that you would die of cirrhosis of the liver what she was really saying was:
> 
> "You ****ing selfish b*stard, you're going to die swilling whisky and leave me alone with the girls. I hate you for doing this, so I am telling to you go ahead and do it. Of course, I wish you would wake up and save yourself for everyone's sake."
> 
> OM being hot is just a barb. Your dating profile is just a stab back.
> 
> Did you record the increase in consumption in your log book? Go back and fill it in accurately.
> 
> Patti Smith



I don't think you are wrong. At the moment I am not inclined to recite the all day, every day. Plus, most of it I have forgotten. If it were just I hope you die, that would be pretty bland, wouldn't it? It is the very constant I want to see you destroyed and I want to be the agent of that destruction. So as much as I am an advocate for sticking it out . . ..


----------



## LongWalk

This is jld's shyte test for you. Pass it.

AMU is afraid of being alone. You are afraid of losing your family. You are hostages of fear.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> This is jld's shyte test for you. Pass it.
> 
> AMU is afraid of being alone. You are afraid of losing your family. You are hostages of fear.


That song always reminded me of Pepper. And Lou Reed. And Cake for its out loud irreverence. But if the message is that we're all dirt pretty soon, it is not lost on me.


----------



## clipclop2

You owe me an apology, HB.

Your fan club here does you and your family no service. You need serious professional help. I'm not sure you have the humility to seek it or accept it but for your children's sake, I hope you can find it.

You are an alcoholic with the typical traits. People here accept what you tell them because they like you but you are taking advantage of their good will by being deceptive. If AMU didn't show up now and then to offer a different POV you would get away with it. And yet your personality has them wrapped around your little finger regardless.

These folks mean well but they clearly do not understand addiction or addicts well enough. 

Get help. 

And learn to tell ENTIRE stories.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> You owe me an apology, HB.
> 
> Your fan club here does you and your family no service. You need serious professional help. I'm not sure you have the humility to seek it or accept it but for your children's sake, I hope you can find it.
> 
> You are an alcoholic with the typical traits. People here accept what you tell them because they like you but you are taking advantage of their good will by being deceptive. If AMU didn't show up now and then to offer a different POV you would get away with it. And yet your personality has them wrapped around your little finger regardless.
> 
> These folks mean well but they clearly do not understand addiction or addicts well enough.
> 
> Get help.
> 
> And learn to tell ENTIRE stories.


I owe you nothing, you sour tart.


----------



## Harken Banks

Clipclop, I am sure you have not noticed that AMU's posts all read like a Harlequin novel. There is nothing that is not staged, knowing or unknowing. But it's not honest. It's more like Oh my gracious I cannot believe what is happenin'. I don't much care to get back into the weeds. That's about as far as I can go I think without getting banned again.


----------



## clipclop2

Your posts are similar. You leave out salient information to present yourself as an innocent victim.

Alcoholics are notorious victims.


----------



## AMU

warlock07 said:


> There is no more love left.
> 
> AMU, as much as I sympathize with your situation, you come off as a tattle tale in your narration.
> 
> 
> HB, do both of you a favor.


Warlock - it's who I am - I try to stick to dates and facts because this is the way I process information. I apologize that it comes off like being a tattle tale - after not posting for 7 weeks, it was my way of providing my perspective of what has been going on in our household.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> Warlock - it's who I am - I try to stick to dates and facts because this is the way I process information. I apologize that it comes off like being a tattle tale - after not posting for 7 weeks, it was my way of providing my perspective of what has been going on in our household.


Which is awesome, except incredibly shaped. Into something unrecognizable.


----------



## clipclop2

You are just as guilty of presenting a warped and self-serving view.

you are just as dishonest is amu. Although I would have to suggest that because she doesn't have a drinking problem she's probably somewhat more reliable. 

for instance I would bet that every time you read incorrectly it is because you were ****faced. 

alcoholics are notorious manipulators. 

you sir are a classic alcoholic. 

I know I'm a bad guy for calling you out on this stuff but it is what it is. I didn't make you this way. nor did AMU.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> Your posts are similar. You leave out salient information to present yourself as an innocent victim.
> 
> Alcoholics are notorious victims.


So my wife was difficult and cruel to the point of impossibility for 10 years and they had her juicy thing with this guy because I am an alcoholic and typical and exemplifying of all that victim stuff? Well, no more.


----------



## Harken Banks

Can this woman be banned now?


----------



## bandit.45

Harken I know you think you have a good bead on things. 

But here is the deal, until you get to the point where you admit the bottle has beaten you, until you get to the point where you admit you cannot heal yourself on your own, until you admit you have lost the battle with booze, you will not be ready for real change. 

When that day comes, hopefully before you lose your family....or die...then get yourself into a good inpatient treatment program and get dry. Four to six weeks preferable. Make sure the place you go has an12 step component, so that when you get out you can start up with AA without missing a beat. 

AA is a life saver...if you follow the program, participate and attend the meetings weekly. I do 2 to 3 a week, sometimes more. It's a lifestyle. But if you stick with it you can stay sober, and alot of your problems will go away. Not all of them, but a good many will.


----------



## Clay2013

Ignore is a option in the user settings. 

I would put it to use. 

I am truly sorry for both you and your wife. I can't imagine what its like to be there in person but it sure looks like hell from a outsiders perspective. 

Sorry.

Clay


----------



## Ikaika

One another note, it is good that your AST and ALT levels are within in norms. However be sure to keep tabs on the AST/ALT, there can be hidden signs of chronic liver disease in that ratio. We may not see eye to eye on things, but that takes nothing away from my concern for your well being. Please, do take care.

Malama pono


----------



## LongWalk

Ikaika,

Do you know Drerio?


----------



## AMU

bandit.45 said:


> Harken I know you think you have a good bead on things.
> 
> But here is the deal, until you get to the point where you admit the bottle has beaten you, until you get to the point where you admit you cannot heal yourself on your own, until you admit you have lost the battle with booze, you will not be ready for real change.
> 
> When that day comes, hopefully before you lose your family....or die...then get yourself into a good inpatient treatment program and get dry. Four to six weeks preferable. Make sure the place you go has an12 step component, so that when you get out you can start up with AA without missing a beat.
> 
> AA is a life saver...if you follow the program, participate and attend the meetings weekly. I do 2 to 3 a week, sometimes more. It's a lifestyle. But if you stick with it you can stay sober, and alot of your problems will go away. Not all of them, but a good many will.


Bandit - thank you. From the very beginning when HB came onto this site more than 2 years ago, he has followed your story, your comments and thought so very highly of you. I appreciate you sharing this side to your story as well.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Ikaika,
> 
> Do you know Drerio?


s'all good


----------



## Ikaika

LongWalk said:


> Ikaika,
> 
> Do you know Drerio?



Same person different username. Drerio is no more . End thread jack


----------



## clipclop2

Banned for what? 

I love how you write complete fiction. I said none of the things that you are saying. That's part of your victimhood.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> Banned for what?
> 
> I love how you write complete fiction. I said none of the things that you are saying. That's part of your victimhood.


Point out a piece of fiction in my writing. Or something from AMU you take as truth that you think contradicts anything I have written, I'll respond.


----------



## bandit.45

AMU said:


> Bandit - thank you. From the very beginning when HB came onto this site more than 2 years ago, he has followed your story, your comments and thought so very highly of you. I appreciate you sharing this side to your story as well.


And you get yourself into AlAnon. A lot of your defensive behavior is pretty typical for a spouse of an alcoholic. I would venture to say that most of the negative stuff you hate yourself for doing is actually misguided coping mechanisms. 

Both of you need intensive therapy. Good luck.


----------



## Harken Banks

bandit.45 said:


> And you get yourself into AlAnon. A lot of your defensive behavior is pretty typical for a spouse of an alcoholic. I would venture to say that most of the negative stuff you hate yourself for doing is actually misguided coping mechanisms.
> 
> Both of you need intensive therapy. Good luck.


she's in alanon. Her problems with alcohol preceded me and mine which I would not have considered problems just a problematic relationship were known to her more than 10 years before we spoke (more than 25 years for those keeping score at home) and only a problem for me in the last 2 or 3 since her affair. Eyes on the ball.


----------



## AMU

bandit.45 said:


> And you get yourself into AlAnon. A lot of your defensive behavior is pretty typical for a spouse of an alcoholic. I would venture to say that most of the negative stuff you hate yourself for doing is actually misguided coping mechanisms.
> 
> Both of you need intensive therapy. Good luck.


Recognize that and have said and know many of my own issues are rooted in my upbringing in an alcoholic environment together with the current continued environment. Have been participating in Alanon for almost 1.5 years, but haven't been attending my regular group as often this fall with the constant school year conflicts. Already told my kiddos this morning I would be going to tonight's meeting.


----------



## clipclop2

your suggestion of what I said is what is fiction. 

you want people to keep their eyes on the ball that you want them on. But there are a lot of balls that require attention.

and since you can only fix yourself why don't you keep your eye on your alcoholism and your problems with it as opposed to her problems with alcohol. 

you're blaming your alcoholism on her cheating. well she stopped cheating and you're still drinking.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> Recognize that and have said and know many of my own issues are rooted in my upbringing in an alcoholic environment together with the current continued environment. Have been participating in Alanon for almost 1.5 years, but haven't been attending my regular group as often this fall with the constant school year conflicts. Already told my kiddos this morning I would be going to tonight's meeting.


I am not sure to make of any of it. AMU has told me she never saw her mom drunk. Quite apparently, addiction to alcohol killed her mom. I have other thoughts on that around how sad her Mom's last years must have been. But I never met her and I won't offer here.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> your suggestion of what I said is what is fiction.
> 
> you want people to keep their eyes on the ball that you want them on. But there are a lot of balls that require attention.
> 
> and since you can only fix yourself why don't you keep your eye on your alcoholism and your problems with it as opposed to her problems with alcohol.
> 
> you're blaming your alcoholism on her cheating. well she stopped cheating and you're still drinking.


Marriage was bad. Dad was in pain. Head in his hands, stop and pull over as soon as he drove away from the house in the morning pain. Pain that made no sense to him, that he could not understand. He had been happy his whole life. Get to the office and lay his head on the desk. Pain. Others saw it but bit their tongues as did dad. You haven't read the threads. That's OK. Just go away.


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> your suggestion of what I said is what is fiction.
> 
> you want people to keep their eyes on the ball that you want them on. But there are a lot of balls that require attention.
> 
> and since you can only fix yourself why don't you keep your eye on your alcoholism and your problems with it as opposed to her problems with alcohol.
> 
> you're blaming your alcoholism on her cheating. well she stopped cheating and you're still drinking.


You have accused me of some things. I asked for specifics. You carry on as a gadfly. I'd call you other things that come to mind but I would get banned. Please go away.


----------



## clipclop2

It is all her fault. I get it.

Good news! She wants you to stop drinking. So because she is totally responsible for all of your behaviour you've nothing left to do but sit back and not drink! 

Problem solved.

Please at least TRY AA. 

You can deflect and blame all you like but you choose your behaviour. 
You realize the chances of your girls marrying drunks is increased because of your choices right? Or is that all on AMU, too?


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> It is all her fault. I get it.
> 
> Good news! She wants you to stop drinking. So because she is totally responsible for all of your behaviour you've nothing left to do but sit back and not drink!
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> Please at least TRY AA.
> 
> You can deflect and blame all you like but you choose your behaviour.
> You realize the chances of your girls marrying drunks is increased because of your choices right? Or is that all on AMU, too?


Are we still in coping with infidelity? If so, tell me about how my wife ended up on the beach with some random guy. And yes, that was probably the end of our marriage. But it is a slow burn.


----------



## Chaparral

Why would you tell someone to leave someone else's thread? I'm guessing the person whose thread this is should make that call.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Are we still in coping with infidelity? If so, tell me about how my wife ended up on the beach with some random guy. And yes, that was probably the end of our marriage.


So move out.

No one faults anyone who can't do R after infidelity.


----------



## Harken Banks

Chaparral said:


> Why would you tell someone to leave someone else's thread? I'm guessing the person whose thread this is should make that call.


I can only ask. I looked at one point at what this woman wrote about her own relationships and those looked gawdawful. Clipclop, Chaparral, tell us about your marriages. Turnera too. Come on. Let's have it. Do people even like you. I mean not damaged people who need whatever relationship they think may stick. Real people in the real world. I don't think I'd want so much as to pass any of you in the street. I think you are simplistic jerks.


----------



## clipclop2

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Don't rain on HB's pity party.

Don't point out reality. It conflicts with his love affair with the bottle.

Get help HB. You could be so freaking cool if you were sober. Why you would choose this for you and your girls I don't know...


----------



## Harken Banks

clipclop2 said:


> Deflect, deflect, deflect.
> 
> Don't rain on HB's pity party.
> 
> Don't point out reality. It conflicts with his love affair with the bottle.
> 
> Get help HB. You could be so freaking cool if you were sober. Why you would choose this for you and your girls I don't know...


Maybe you are right. But haven't I asked you for some direct responses in the past. And don't you always follow with something like this? 

Where is my deflection?


----------



## turnera

Actually, I'm one of the most well liked people I know. People are always thanking me for being helpful or listening to their problems or getting things done or volunteering. You don't like me because I call you out and don't trust what you write because I can see how you try to manipulate situations in your writing; fair enough. My hope is that some day you're able to reach a point where you're fed up with this 'life' you're living and make real changes. At that point, you won't be so antagonistic with people who want you to change - for YOUR sake, by the way. We have no skin in the game except the hopeful knowledge that this one family - you, AMU, and your girls - will be pulled out of this morass you two are in before it's too late for the girls.


----------



## clipclop2

I don't follow your meanders HB. I know that bothers you because you are the Pied Piper. Not everyone wants to dance to your tune.

If you actually want help people will do their best. If you just want an audience maybe you should start a self-absorbed thread that Is all about your amazingness. You've plenty of fans who will await every tale. 

This thread is dead serious. 

It isn't in your control.


----------



## warlock07

:scratchhead:


What is going on?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Actually, I'm one of the most well liked people I know. People are always thanking me for being helpful or listening to their problems or getting things done or volunteering.


----------



## vellocet

Harken Banks said:


> Well, my WW has pretty much doubled down on my AP was Hot! Hot! Hot! And you are an *******. What say the forum?


That she is not as remorseful or sorry about what she did to you as she claims.


----------



## vellocet

warlock07 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> What is going on?


BS bashing


----------



## warlock07

turnera said:


> Actually, I'm one of the most well liked people I know. People are always thanking me for being helpful or listening to their problems or getting things done or volunteering. You don't like me because I call you out and don't trust what you write because I can see how you try to manipulate situations in your writing; fair enough. My hope is that some day you're able to reach a point where you're fed up with this 'life' you're living and make real changes. At that point, you won't be so antagonistic with people who want you to change - for YOUR sake, by the way. We have no skin in the game except the hopeful knowledge that this one family - you, AMU, and your girls - will be pulled out of this morass you two are in before it's too late for the girls.













Cant ....... resist ...


----------



## warlock07

vellocet said:


> BS bashing


HB is no victim.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken,

Some of us are in a different place in life. Turnera and I have children who are moving into adulthood. I think people are slightly surprized to find that they reach a different stage in life and at times we don't even remember important things about what has gone on before. Discussing in someone else's thread actually brings back to our own lives and problems. Regrets we all have a few. Maybe even more.

You are a talented person. Acute and witty. You can be intimidating but remember some wisdom is acquired. To be married, divorced, betrayed, loved anew, all of this and more creates scars we call wisdom. Your children are young. We merely wish to spare them unnecessary suffering. Why should they undergo what AMU has undergone?

Why should your surrender your family to face your addiction alone? For heaven's sake conquer it and then decide whether there is enough love left for you to remain married. Sober you will be a different person. It will be different.

Ms GutPunch, who cheated on her husband, could not love him for real until she beat her addiction. She was in rehab for a long time. GutPunch cashed in her pension to pay for the clinic. He could have just divorced her and let her go to the devil. His children were a major motivation.

Both GP and Ms GP had alcoholic parents. So, their marriage, the union of two well educated, good looking persons was the attraction of dysfunctional individuals who were unaware that they could not escape their childhood demons.

Your coaching on the mountain and pitch are holding your family together. You need to take that strength and leverage it to restore your home life to good health.

ClipClop, Chaparral and Turnera are all rooting for you or they wouldn't try. Have they anything to offer you? Have you anything to give them?


----------



## vellocet

warlock07 said:


> HB is no victim.


Maybe not, but he doesn't deserve the bullsh*t he is getting in this thread either. He may have a problem. I will say he needs to get help.

But certain people here are trying to say they want him to get help, yet being complete azzholes to him in the process. Calling him a "drunk" has a much different intent for emotional response than saying he may suffer from alcoholism. Also saying his "sorry ass"? Really? Sorry, those with that kind of attitude towards this guy who needs help and is in pain after what his wife did aren't his friend, and they could care less about him.

Something tells me he could get help, stop drinking, and the usual suspects would still be here cheerleading for his cheating wife.


----------



## vellocet

I fully appreciate that he has a problem and needs to deal with it.

Calling him names and bashing him doesn't send a message of caring.


----------



## warlock07

Hate is a strong word clipclop, but it does describe your posts regardless of your actual intent, which seems to be lost in the process.


----------



## clipclop2

I'm not doing this for you. He needs a strong hand. If anyone in his real life talked to him the way he needs her might not be here at all. How do you think those at his job view him? If they told him to either sober up or move on maybe that would help. 

He is killing himself. I don't think any of you fully appreciate it.


----------



## LongWalk

ClipClop,

Read more carefully and click on the Patti Smith song link i put up....

okay I'll put it up again. People who died





> Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.


Brendan Behan









Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/brendanbeh132621.html#UaQhZ3bVvDJ8eT8j.99

He drank himself to death.


----------



## oregonmom

This marriage is a perfect example of what happens when addiction is involved.

Spouse A is drinking (or using) too much and it starts to effect the things in their life. They don't see it, but spouse B does and starts reacting. A doesn't like the way B is acting, so they drink more. B gets more upset because things are getting worse so they up the ante. Then A ups the ante again. Then B. Wash, rinse, repeat.

AMU, I am glad you are going to AlAnon. You need to make a real serious commitment to it, like that meeting is a doctors appointment, or a work meeting, or whatever you know you couldn't afford to skip. That is your life line right now. If you don't have a sponsor, get one right away. If you do, let them know you need to get thru those steps. HB can stop drinking and the problems won't be fixed, both of you are broken. I think you realize that, but HB's issues keep pulling you back into the dynamic I wrote about above. BTDT, and it's frustrating and exhausting and hard not to get sucked in.

There is no chance this will work if HB keeps drinking. There is no hope if AMU doesn't get better either. A 12 step slogan - Let it begin with me. Someone needs to step up despite what the other is doing. If the other gets left behind in the process, so be it, but at least you can say you did the best you could.


----------



## Harken Banks

Where was our marriage 3 years ago? Where was it when AMU walked to the beach? Where was it the last 10 plus years when she kicked the sh*t out of me day in and day out? When I slept on the couches and guest rooms for years? Got dirty looks and maybe something thrown at me when I had the audacity to walk into the bedroom where my clothes were hung simply to get dressed. I'm OK with people saying hey man the drinking is too much. But either this AA stuff gives some weird insight that allows you to ascribe to drinking things that happened before drinking or you are all nuts or just not keen on the timelines and history because AA or something.


----------



## oregonmom

Maybe I am confused. Are you saying you didn't drink at all before the A? I thought you always did but AMU didn't complain about it before then and now you drink more. Is that correct?

People who love someone with an addiction are in just as much denial as the drinker. Maybe more. Just because she didn't voice any concerns doesn't mean it wasn't happening. I always knew something was "off", I didn't realize it was addiction till one day something slapped me out of denial. Looking back, all that "off" stuff was caused by drinking and drugs, it's clear as day now. And I am a sweet, gentle, nice person. Always have been. But I could be hell on wheels with my H. My denial and codependency and all those bad feelings were multiplied by 1000 while he was doing what he was doing. It is just toxic to the max. AMU was brought up in this dynamic too, so she has had years to perfect those bad traits to survive. It's no wonder why she would jump right back in to those coping mechanisms she had as a child when she sees the same thing happening in her marriage.


----------



## AMU

oregonmom said:


> This marriage is a perfect example of what happens when addiction is involved.
> 
> Spouse A is drinking (or using) too much and it starts to effect the things in their life. They don't see it, but spouse B does and starts reacting. A doesn't like the way B is acting, so they drink more. B gets more upset because things are getting worse so they up the ante. Then A ups the ante again. Then B. Wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> AMU, I am glad you are going to AlAnon. You need to make a real serious commitment to it, like that meeting is a doctors appointment, or a work meeting, or whatever you know you couldn't afford to skip. That is your life line right now. If you don't have a sponsor, get one right away. If you do, let them know you need to get thru those steps. HB can stop drinking and the problems won't be fixed, both of you are broken. I think you realize that, but HB's issues keep pulling you back into the dynamic I wrote about above. BTDT, and it's frustrating and exhausting and hard not to get sucked in.
> 
> There is no chance this will work if HB keeps drinking. There is no hope if AMU doesn't get better either. A 12 step slogan - Let it begin with me. Someone needs to step up despite what the other is doing. If the other gets left behind in the process, so be it, but at least you can say you did the best you could.


Thanks, Oregonmom - You were reading my mind, as I returned from the Alanon meeting a short time ago and reached out to someone just tonight to discuss sponsorship. Will be talking to her more later this week, as I think it will be helpful for me to work through the steps with a sponsor - something I have not yet started.


----------



## AMU

The drinking has existed for our entire marriage and was an issue long before the affair. We dated long distance and were never together in the same city except for weekends and some vacation weeks until the month before our wedding, so I had little experience pre-marriage with HB drinking every single day. After we were married, we would have wine at dinner every night and I would find myself taking a second glass (rarely finished) so he wouldn't finish the bottle. 

Within a year of our marriage, I was pregnant and couldn't drink - HB would consume the full bottle of wine every night (often with other spirits as well) and when I would express concern, I was told I was being overly concerned because of my past. So I would second guess myself and move forward. And it continued and got worse instead of better. We have now been married 14 years and it has progressively been getting worse, but has been way out of control for much longer than 3 years. 

My friends and family would say "you know he's an alcoholic, don't you?" even when I wanted to believe it wasn't the case and he was assuring me again and again that I was being ridiculous - that he wasn't my mom.


----------



## soccermom2three

This is so sad. One of my best friends husband drank himself to death. He was 42. His girls were in middle school at the time.


----------



## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> Where was our marriage 3 years ago? Where was it when AMU walked to the beach? Where was it the last 10 plus years when she kicked the sh*t out of me day in and day out? When I slept on the couches and guest rooms for years? Got dirty looks and maybe something thrown at me when I had the audacity to walk into the bedroom where my clothes were hung simply to get dressed. I'm OK with people saying hey man the drinking is too much. But either this AA stuff gives some weird insight that allows you to ascribe to drinking things that happened before drinking or you are all nuts or just not keen on the timelines and history because AA or something.



I'm not going to even attempt to wade through the he said, she said issues. I do encourage you to either control your drinking or stop altogether. I can't answer which would be better, because I don't know your real situation and will not pretend to do as much. Life can be sh!tty and I know, getting tossed can be a great escape. But, do this for you, not for AMU or even your kiddos. Do it for you. I can't tell you how much I struggle against wanting to just throw back a few when life gets stressful, but being sober is soooo damn good. I did it for me. I just want to encourage you and not judge you. No matter what you think of me, I do care. 

Malama Pono


----------



## oregonmom

AMU said:


> Thanks, Oregonmom - You were reading my mind, as I returned from the Alanon meeting a short time ago and reached out to someone just tonight to discuss sponsorship. Will be talking to her more later this week, as I think it will be helpful for me to work through the steps with a sponsor - something I have not yet started.


Awesome! I didn't have a sponsor for a while and I could do a lot of what was suggested and definitely understood the concepts, it was still really easy to get sucked in to everything once it started rolling. Working the steps and having my sponsor hold me accountable is what keeps me from losing my sh!t. I'm not perfect, but it is SO much easier than before.



AMU said:


> The drinking has existed for our entire marriage and was an issue long before the affair. We dated long distance and were never together in the same city except for weekends and some vacation weeks until the month before our wedding, so I had little experience pre-marriage with HB drinking every single day. After we were married, we would have wine at dinner every night and I would find myself taking a second glass (rarely finished) so he wouldn't finish the bottle.
> 
> Within a year of our marriage, I was pregnant and couldn't drink - HB would consume the full bottle of wine every night (often with other spirits as well) and when I would express concern, I was told I was being overly concerned because of my past. So I would second guess myself and move forward. And it continued and got worse instead of better. We have now been married 14 years and it has progressively been getting worse, but has been way out of control for much longer than 3 years.
> 
> My friends and family would say "you know he's an alcoholic, don't you?" even when I wanted to believe it wasn't the case and he was assuring me again and again that I was being ridiculous - that he wasn't my mom.


This is what I thought the timeline looked like, thanks for clarifying.


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## LongWalk

GutPunch's thread and perhaps BrokenShadow's, too illustrate that infidelity and addiction can be deeply intertwined. Two women addicts had affairs when addiction threatened to land them in prison. The AP partners in both cases understood the addict because they too were addicts. The affairs affirmed the addiction. Validation of the need for escape in the form of a fellow.

Harken and AMU are both very broken people. Although Harken is testing his sex ranking via online dating, he is a smart enough guy, and others have mentioned this before, to realize that he cannot find a together woman to enable his drinking. He can find a beautiful, smart, rich and funny woman who will accept his drinking because there is something deeply wrong with her. Likely candidates would come from children of alcoholics. But he already has AMU.

He cannot do better than AMU and he knows it. However, AMU is fed up. That is why there here on TAM. TAM has become their de facto MC. Indeed, any MC they visit should get their two threads as background material.

It is possible to denigrate AMU and HB's relationship, concentrating on the pathological. If one reduces everything by simplifying and exaggerating, HB and AMU have nothing going for them but booze, cheating and rage. Yet both can show deep love and sensitivity. Harken living the sustainable food dream in the backyard with the fowl and herbs, it is beautiful. The girls playing sports, they are adorable.

The central conflict in this marriage is between the addict and enabler. The cheating is an additional destructive chapter, a warning of the collapse of the relationship.

If HB and AMU push there conflict to the point of divorce, HB will likely drink himself to death faster. His reason to live will be gone. He will have his daughters but I fear it will not be enough.

Divorce will cause great financial strain.

Ikaika is right that HB must get sober for himself, not others.

It's scary to end an dependence because life will enter a new phase.

Behan said that he was not a writer with a drinking problem but a drinker with a writing problem. He died young.

Where is A12? She quit drinking but her husband divorced anyway. She hasn't found anyone new, although she is a kind and pretty woman. 

HB, AMU is running. How about you?

I dislike sentimentality. Disney took the Little Mermaid, which has a sad ending in the original version, and turned it into a romance fiction cartoon. You cannot even see the mermaid's titties. What is the point of a mythical female creature in a bra?

Reality is gritty. HB and AMU need to hug each other three times a day. Sounds simple and childish but I don't have any other magical solutions. AMU stop raging. HB stop drinking. Live one day at a time.

It is probably not possible to quit drinking on one's own. But HB if you want to prove that you are not the same as the average person, and you aren't, the do it.

The whole reason you are on this thread is to find strength.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Longwalk, your right. In my father's side of the family the divorce rate is like 20 percent. Somehow we seem to find stable people to have relationships with. My mom's side is another story. Perhaps that is why my mom loves my dad's family so much. We are pretty grounded people. For instance, when I lost a text book for school, my dad made me responsible for it. So I went out doing yard work, and gaining money, and gained extra in the process as well. His side was raised that way.


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## Harken Banks

AMU goes to meetings and that is fine and I do what I can to support that and other outside pursuits. AMU knew who I was long before we first talked. I drank less in the first 10 years of our marriage than I did in the 20 preceding. I did not know who she was entirely, but took her as she represented herself during courtship. What was represented turned out to be a sales package and a different thing entirely. Oh well, on we go. 

Anyway, comparisons to her mom started after her affair when she started screaming I was just like her mom, but that was her losing her sh*t in the context of my inability to let go of the mounting weirdness around what I later discovered to be her affair (that, for the record was 12 or 13 years into marriage). I remember it quite clearly. She would scream "you're just like my mom, you're never going to change, our counselor [counselor Bob for those who have read the history]says you have to let it go and you can't let it go! I've done this before! You're just like my mom!" This because I had an uneasy relationship with her affair. That was an extremely weird chapter. She would start shaking and screaming at me if I so much as said I don't understand what's going on with this guy, but I don't think it's good." So one of her 2 or 3 responses became "you are just like my mom!" (whom we had never really discussed), usually coupled with some swearing and kicking, anything to show me she was going to lose her sh*t if I asked about what the hell was going on with this guy (first response and usual go to was "old GF! You had a baby with her and you killed the baby!" and other nice things). She doesn't talk about her mom. I have never raised or avoided discussion of her mom. I know very little about her. To me she seems to have been written out of the family history. I have felt it is not for me to pry, much as I can see AMU has a lot to work out around it and how it all happened seems to me quite horrific. The "my friends and family say" stuff is tiresome. Thanks all, for perspective.


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## Harken Banks

I should have written "during" instead of "after."


----------



## AMU

Started our day yesterday by giving HB a hug - the tension in the air was palpable which happens every time I post. More hugs and discussions throughout the day - I had a 2 hour mid day gap without meetings/conference calls and asked HB to go to lunch. He said he wasn't interested in lunch, that 1-1 time spent talking was courtship and he wasn't interested in that. 

I shared that I felt our lack of 1-1 time, going out to dinner or to listen to music, spending time talking, taking time away from the kids for just us (something we almost never do - I can't remember a time in months that we've done something just the two of us) was for me, was something I needed. That intimacy for me followed from those connections. He wasn't interested. So I sat at the kitchen table, stared into his eyes and asked him what he wanted. His answer - kindness. We ended up spending an hour talking and then cuddling up in our room.

But yesterday was also a day of extreme intoxication- hoping today will be different. One day at a time.


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## LongWalk

AMU,

Good job. It is a contradiction. HB wants kindness but he is avoiding you. Well, the reason is obvious. You are interfering with his drinking. Just keep doing it without shouting or anger.

Cuddling that is an end in itself is a great message.

Get HB to walk if he cannot run.

HB,

Is your neighborhood pedestrian friendly. Instead of drink when your daughters get home take them on walks. Read a story and retell it on the walk. Fifteen or twenty minutes for each girl. You become richer in the literary sense.

If you are taking them to practice, how many days of the week is that? Do you run with players during warm up?

HB,

You have the abilities to be writer of fiction. Why not take up writing instead of drinking?

AMU when your daughters hug HB does he eat it up?


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## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> Started our day yesterday by giving HB a hug - the tension in the air was palpable which happens every time I post. More hugs and discussions throughout the day - I had a 2 hour mid day gap without meetings/conference calls and asked HB to go to lunch. He said he wasn't interested in lunch, that 1-1 time spent talking was courtship and he wasn't interested in that.
> 
> I shared that I felt our lack of 1-1 time, going out to dinner or to listen to music, spending time talking, taking time away from the kids for just us (something we almost never do - I can't remember a time in months that we've done something just the two of us) was for me, was something I needed. That intimacy for me followed from those connections. He wasn't interested. So I sat at the kitchen table, stared into his eyes and asked him what he wanted. His answer - kindness. We ended up spending an hour talking and then cuddling up in our room.
> 
> But yesterday was also a day of extreme intoxication- hoping today will be different. One day at a time.


She did everything she could yesterday. I just was not there.


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## LongWalk

Great that you can see this.


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## bfree

I'm not going to harp on Harken's drinking. I've already shared my personal struggles and stated my feelings. From what AMU wrote I do not believe HB had a drinking problem when they first got married. Frankly finishing a bottle of wine is not really a big deal to me. Heck, I know I'm an alcoholic and I still do that on occasion. My drinking is under control though I know I must always be vigilant. I think for Harken drinking is pleasurable and for many years it wasn't an issue, at least with him. I do believe that AMU's past has left her hypersensitive to alcohol consumption but since she also partook of the devils brew I don't think Harken was fully aware of the extent of her issues. That said, I believe that alcohol became a coping mechanism for Harken and the more the marriage deteriorated the more he drank to compensate. I believe that the more Harken drank the less respect AMU had for him and (seeing how her mother died) the more she subconsciously thought about having to live a life without him. I think this is where her vulnerability came from that ultimately led to her affair. So here's the problem. How do they put Humpty Dumpty back together again? Obviously Harken needs to cut back on his drinking and he showed he can successfully do that. Obviously AMU needs to deal with her own issues related to her mother's alcoholism and her own anger issues. Harken is not going to completely stop drinking. To me that is quite apparent. And I'm not sure that he needs to if he can get to a place where his drinking is once again moderate. But can AMU live with that? Does she need to be with a man that doesn't imbibe at all? Is that where her anger comes from? Is her anger a reaction to not being able to completely stop Harken from drinking just like she couldn't stop her mother? This to me is the question that needs an answer. Because as we all know controlling someone else is not possible. I think if both Harken and AMU can completely focus on themselves for a while maybe the pressure will dissipate and they can start to work on things together.


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## warlock07

HB, you don't think you are an addict , do you ?

Yeah, I am joining the bandwagon. 

You start getting defensive when people mention it. 

As much as you say about AMU presenting a narrative, she cannot lie about the numbers, right ? 

Not sure on how to get to you on this ? Normally a guy of logic and reason, you keep twisting yourself to justify the drinking. It is even embarrassing to read about them. 

What is the end game with regards to the drinking ? I don't see you guys remaining together if keep on drinking. If you relapse once in a while, that is fine. You pick yourself up and start again. But you need to start the process of committing to it. Even if you won't die, your quality of life will become so bad that you will be a burden to your loved ones.


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## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> AMU,
> 
> Good job. It is a contradiction. HB wants kindness but he is avoiding you. Well, the reason is obvious. You are interfering with his drinking. Just keep doing it without shouting or anger.
> 
> Cuddling that is an end in itself is a great message.
> 
> Get HB to walk if he cannot run.
> 
> HB,
> 
> Is your neighborhood pedestrian friendly. Instead of drink when your daughters get home take them on walks. Read a story and retell it on the walk. Fifteen or twenty minutes for each girl. You become richer in the literary sense.
> 
> If you are taking them to practice, how many days of the week is that? Do you run with players during warm up?
> 
> HB,
> 
> You have the abilities to be writer of fiction. Why not take up writing instead of drinking?
> 
> AMU when your daughters hug HB does he eat it up?


Thanks, as always. I wasn't avoiding her. My not being there was not about alcohol.

As for can I run, I can. I trail run a few miles pretty much every day. Rivers, rocks, stumps, streams. Chase the dog. Knock him down if he's in my way. Some scrapes and bruises for it. Hit a golf ball a consistent 275 yards (300 plus on an elevated tee or where the fairway has a receptive spot for me to hit). That for a guy who plays fewer than 54 holes a year even though he has paid for all the golf anyone could want and on a frame 6 ft carrying sometimes less than 160, sometimes a lot less, which is not ideal, but the weight loss has been a problem only the last couple of years and I gained some last month. Softball maybe 325 ft maybe more. I have never had it taped. Certainly out of the park over the concession stands and well into the next. Left or right side of the plate or field. Throw in the low 80s. Got some soccer skills which, yes, I do exhibit from time to time. Ski. Did I mention ski? Pretty handy around the property and beat the kids regularly or just now and then for some sport.

We talked a bit about my liver enzymes, which at last read were 20 and 25, ALT and AST. My resting pulse is recorded as 52, but I think it's lower. HDL 96, LDL 63. I'm in OK shape. I'd like to dispel the notion that I'm an alcoholic slob whose body takes whatever shape or contour the couch will accommodate. Yeah, I can run.


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## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> I'm not going to harp on Harken's drinking. I've already shared my personal struggles and stated my feelings. From what AMU wrote I do not believe HB had a drinking problem when they first got married. Frankly finishing a bottle of wine is not really a big deal to me. Heck, I know I'm an alcoholic and I still do that on occasion. My drinking is under control though I know I must always be vigilant. I think for Harken drinking is pleasurable and for many years it wasn't an issue, at least with him. I do believe that AMU's past has left her hypersensitive to alcohol consumption but since she also partook of the devils brew I don't think Harken was fully aware of the extent of her issues. That said, I believe that alcohol became a coping mechanism for Harken and the more the marriage deteriorated the more he drank to compensate. I believe that the more Harken drank the less respect AMU had for him and (seeing how her mother died) the more she subconsciously thought about having to live a life without him. I think this is where her vulnerability came from that ultimately led to her affair. So here's the problem. How do they put Humpty Dumpty back together again? Obviously Harken needs to cut back on his drinking and he showed he can successfully do that. Obviously AMU needs to deal with her own issues related to her mother's alcoholism and her own anger issues. Harken is not going to completely stop drinking. To me that is quite apparent. And I'm not sure that he needs to if he can get to a place where his drinking is once again moderate. But can AMU live with that? Does she need to be with a man that doesn't imbibe at all? Is that where her anger comes from? Is her anger a reaction to not being able to completely stop Harken from drinking just like she couldn't stop her mother? This to me is the question that needs an answer. Because as we all know controlling someone else is not possible. I think if both Harken and AMU can completely focus on themselves for a while maybe the pressure will dissipate and they can start to work on things together.


Thanks. That was very kind.

What I think may need explanation is why or how I was not there. I had left.


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## vellocet

Ikaika said:


> I'm not going to even attempt to wade through the he said, she said issues. I do encourage you to either control your drinking or stop altogether. I can't answer which would be better, because I don't know your real situation and will not pretend to do as much. Life can be sh!tty and I know, getting tossed can be a great escape. But, do this for you, not for AMU or even your kiddos. Do it for you. I can't tell you how much I struggle against wanting to just throw back a few when life gets stressful, but being sober is soooo damn good. I did it for me. I just want to encourage you and not judge you. No matter what you think of me, I do care.
> 
> Malama Pono


I concur. Very well said. I do believe you care about Harken and this was the way to convey that.

Harken, we are with you man. Please get help. What your wife did to you is not worth ruining your health and life over. Your wife's actions should not have this kind of control over you. Take control of your life and live it to the fullest my man. If this means divorcing your wife and moving on to greener pastures, so be it. If it means reconciling and making the best of it, so be it. But please don't let her actions control you like this.


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## Chaparral

A functioning drunk is still a drunk. I've known many. All with the same results.


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## vellocet

Chaparral said:


> A functioning drunk is still a drunk. I've known many. All with the same results.


And your point is? Have any advice or encouragement for him to get himself some help?


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## Harken Banks

I may not have appreciated Longwalk's post about walking and running. It was kind and thoughtful. Chap's point I appreciate too. My current plan and desire is not to quit drinking, but to reestablish a healthier relationship with it. I think it can be done. And thanks Vellocet for the encouragement and support. We'll see how it goes. Things have kind of stabilized at home some and that is a good thing. At least AMU and I aren't screaming at each other at the moment. She deserves much credit and appreciation for that.


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## LongWalk

There is debate over the question of whether alcoholics can drink moderately. I am no expert. I don't believe that a single drink must catapult an former drinker back into heavy drinking. Clearly it is difficult to limit alcohol intake.

I remember reading that beer drinking alcohols had some idea what they consumed because they measured their days in X pints or Y bottles. Consumers of whisky and vodka seldom could keep track. A famous Swedish alcoholic, Gudrun Schyman, the former leader of the Left Party (Communists) was a so-called box wine drunk.

She was forced to resign because she lost self control at public events with drink. She blamed the boxes for her disease. It was, she said, too easy to pour another glass of wine.

Harken you may not wish to completely quit, but I urge you to try and spend 4 days out of the week alcohol free. That ought give you a chance to contemplate the world with a new perspective. If you can speak generously of AMU, as you are, why can't you succeed with your marriage?

Since you are consuming less have you noticed changes in your sleep patterns? When I drink even a beer, I wake earlier and feel some what unrefreshed by sleep. Alcohol makes me slightly more creative. I see the profound in the ordinary and yet I could not tell you what exactly was different from my sober view of the same setting.


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## bfree

LW, I am an alcoholic. Not beer, mostly whisky, bourbon, but on occasion rum. I'm not much for the clear liquors but when in Rome...

I am able to drink and stay under control. I can limit myself. Initially I stayed dry for a year before I tried to have a drink now and then but unlike Harken I was a non functioning drunk. The fact that Harken was able to successfully cut back on his consumption so quickly and thoroughly has me believing that he can do so as well. I think the key for him is to disassociate drink from his troubles. In other words, drink moderately for pleasure but deal with the stress of his marriage in another hopefully healthier way. Every alcoholic is not the same. In the beginning I wasn't strong enough to just cut back. Harken may be able to.


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## LongWalk

Thanks, BF. I have an addictive personality. I licked nicotine and alcohol but I am a sports workout addict. Call it endogenous morphine addiction. Although it is positive for the most part, it is still an addiction.

The interesting thing about alcohol is that I only drank a beer, but it was also and addiction. My liver cannot take it so I quit. 

My mother is 84. She drinks more now than she ever did. At least one beer with dinner. Sometimes two. She can't sleep well. Stays up reading after midnight. But she is functioning well. 

Other people I know have destroyed themselves with drink. 

If a Harken ended his dependence on alcohol, I suspect he would enjoy and appreciate an occasional consumption.


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## Harken Banks

Alcohol is as old as civilization and at times and in places, some conspicuously of my genetic heritage, through several periods had quite a run. I hadn't thought of it before, but maybe I am a product of natural selection in this way.


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## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> Alcohol is as old as civilization and at times and in places, some conspicuously of my genetic heritage, through several periods had quite a run. I hadn't thought of it before, *but maybe I am a product of natural selection in this way*.



Of course there is always the thing of what we call mismatched diseases - our cultural evolution changes at a much faster rate than our adaptations based on our biological evolution. We are too satiated, too sedentary and too sanitized for our own biological good 

On a serious note, changing toward a healthier lifestyle for "you" is good thing. No judgements or harping on my part, simply want to encourage you.


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## Harken Banks

Well anyway and with sincere appreciation not to be lost in what follows I am thrilled that pretty much all we talk about anymore is how Harken is fond of drink.


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## vellocet

I'm fond of drink myself. Don't need it, just like snort after work once in a while.

I'm delighted that the focus is on your fondness of the drink and away from the cheating wife


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## cpacan

*Sv: Seeking Advice*

Maybe we could ask the thread to be moved to the coping with alcohol section, since it doesn't have much to do with infidelity?
How do the two of you view the impact of infidelity at this moment - dealt with, rug swept or working on it? Do any of you show any emotions in this regard?


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## vellocet

It has everything to do with infidelity. Some people just wanted to divert the attention away from that and onto him liking to drink.


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## Chaparral

Your wife has stopped cheating hopefully.

There seem to be multiple problems in your marriage.

If half of what AMU says is true, drink is a huge problem.

After that is cut out, then you see where you are and go to the next problem.

Could be that AMU is not amenable to change. She is seeking help at AA. I hope its as much to solve her ACOA issues as much as it is dealing with her dependence on you. Hopefully, there's a bright future for your family.

Its a bit like working on a car. You know somethings wrong that can have several causes and symptoms. You rule out problems one at a time until that b!tch runs like a top. If you're a car nut that is. Others just run that clunker into the ground and walk off. How much you put into it, car or family, depends on how much you want it.


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## Harken Banks

Chaparral said:


> Your wife has stopped cheating hopefully.
> 
> There seem to be multiple problems in your marriage.
> 
> If half of what AMU says is true, drink is a huge problem.
> 
> After that is cut out, then you see where you are and go to the next problem.
> 
> Could be that AMU is not amenable to change. She is seeking help at AA. I hope its as much to solve her ACOA issues as much as it is dealing with her dependence on you. Hopefully, there's a bright future for your family.
> 
> Its a bit like working on a car. You know somethings wrong that can have several causes and symptoms. You rule out problems one at a time until that b!tch runs like a top. If you're a car nut that is. Others just run that clunker into the ground and walk off. How much you put into it, car or family, depends on how much you want it.


I get it. The analogy fits many pursuits. Still and while what AMU says of the last 2 or 3 years about my drinking is close enough to true for the sake of this conversation, the marriage problems and affair or whatever and aftermath preceded all that.


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## AMU

I think there is infidelity throughout our last four years. To this day, HB thinks the "thing" 3.5 years ago (Feb-Sept 2011) with his ex-GF is a no big deal thing, he continues to contact her despite my repeated requests (I have literally begged) for him not to. Sent her a Facebook message just last week saying "love you." Multiple hour long conversations with her in July. This with the unmarried high school ex with a very long history who he was "back with" just before we met at age 30 (they have a long history of on again off again) who is still in love with him and has never married, in part, because no one else has measured up. Yet he doesn't appreciate or respect my feelings on this.

And HB has an active account on match.com, continues to be in contact, send e-mails to members, back and forth about when/if they will meet. This is his 4th or 5th stint on match.com in the past 2 years. He has gone on dates and even been physical, without sleeping with, at least two woman. I do consider this cheating. He always claims these happen in times of separation, but that is not the case - we have never been physically separated - we've always lived in the same house and sleeping in the same bed when he ventures back onto match. Just last week, we were going about our daily lives, spending time with the children, taking them trick or treating when I found that he was again, back on match asking for pictures and saying "maybe we should get together" to various women. So, yes, there is a lot of infidelity. 

I own my own part and said things and texted things (March-May 2012) about which I am ashamed and embarrassed - it was not a proud chapter in my life. Three months where I looked elsewhere for attention. Absolutely wrong in every way. But since I sent a no contact text on June 7, 2012, I have never looked back and done nothing that could even be construed as unfaithful to my husband or my marriage. I know I hurt him and have tried and tried. We spent months talking through things, having me reassure him, hold him. I attended IC at his insistence and after I begged, he finally agreed to see a MC together which we did for two months before he walked away. When I've traveled for work (which over the past several years has been about 6-7 times a year for 2-4 days each), I stay in touch all the time. He has access to and is welcome to access to my phone, computer and ipad at all times. Yet he still feels like I've failed him on this. Ideas - what has helped others?


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## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> I think there is infidelity throughout our last four years. To this day, HB thinks the "thing" 3.5 years ago (Feb-Sept 2011) with his ex-GF is a no big deal thing, he continues to contact her despite my repeated requests (I have literally begged) for him not to. Sent her a Facebook message just last week saying "love you." Multiple hour long conversations with her in July. This with the unmarried high school ex with a very long history who he was "back with" just before we met at age 30 (they have a long history of on again off again) who is still in love with him and has never married, in part, because no one else has measured up. Yet he doesn't appreciate or respect my feelings on this.
> 
> And HB has an active account on match.com, continues to be in contact, send e-mails to members, back and forth about when/if they will meet. This is his 4th or 5th stint on match.com in the past 2 years. He has gone on dates and even been physical, without sleeping with, at least two woman. I do consider this cheating. He always claims these happen in times of separation, but that is not the case - we have never been physically separated - we've always lived in the same house and sleeping in the same bed when he ventures back onto match. Just last week, we were going about our daily lives, spending time with the children, taking them trick or treating when I found that he was again, back on match asking for pictures and saying "maybe we should get together" to various women. So, yes, there is a lot of infidelity.
> 
> I own my own part and said things and texted things (March-May 2012) about which I am ashamed and embarrassed - it was not a proud chapter in my life. Three months where I looked elsewhere for attention. Absolutely wrong in every way. But since I sent a no contact text on June 7, 2012, I have never looked back and done nothing that could even be construed as unfaithful to my husband or my marriage. I know I hurt him and have tried and tried. We spent months talking through things, having me reassure him, hold him. I attended IC at his insistence and after I begged, he finally agreed to see a MC together which we did for two months before he walked away. When I've traveled for work (which over the past several years has been about 6-7 times a year for 2-4 days each), I stay in touch all the time. He has access to and is welcome to access to my phone, computer and ipad at all times. Yet he still feels like I've failed him on this. Ideas - what has helped others?


This is what happens. This is what you get. Not because I wanted you to have it. Not because I wanted to experience or witness any of it.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> Well anyway and with sincere appreciation not to be lost in what follows I am thrilled that pretty much all we talk about anymore is how Harken is fond of drink.


Funny how that evolved isn't it?


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## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> I know I hurt him and have tried and tried.


----------



## Gabriel

Been awhile since I've chimed in on this relationship.

Truth be told, Harken hasn't ever gotten over what AMU did back in 2011. She stopped, but Harken hasn't processed it and seems unable to do so. Therefore, he has felt free to wield his own measure of inappropriate behavior, that may or may not have exceeded what his wife has done, and much more recently than AMU.

It's been 3+ years since AMU's indiscretions, which is still within the 2-5 years it typically takes for a betrayed spouse to heal from the shock and awe of infidelity. But it seems Harken isn't progressing toward healing at all.

The question is whether Harken can get to the point of forgiveness. So far, it is clear he has not. Maybe he has gotten to the point where he doesn't want to get divorced, but he really hasn't forgiven her. If he had, he wouldn't be on match.com, Facebooking the ex-GF despite the pain it causes AMU.

While this is going on, AMU has gotten angry, and is starting her list of crimes Harken is committing during this time, because no progress has been made on his end to productively process what happened and move forward.

In order for this misery to end, one of two things need to happen, IMHO.

1) Harken, with AMU's help and support needs to take REAL steps to heal from what happened 3+ years ago, and decide to forgive his wife, so they can move forward, or

2) Harken needs to realize he is unable to do #1, and therefore begin developing separation/divorce plans.

All I've seen is limbo here, with Harken not moving toward a productive place of forgiveness, and AMU reminding him of what he's doing wrong.


----------



## NoChoice

I have also followed this off and on for quite a while and I have just one question, which is actually rhetorical because no one knows but the two of you. How much is enough? If you guys really want to hurt each other how can either of you heal? Are you staying together solely to cause each other pain?

If I recall this all started with some very inappropriate texting. Okay, strike another one for advanced technology. Can you guys step back and see the monster this has evolved into and what this beast is doing to your family. You do realize that you can each make a decision to say today, this ends now. The vindictiveness, the outmaneuvering, the rage, the drinking, all of it can end today. It starts with your own resolve to make this stop.

As you stand there, swords drawn, ready to slice another chunk out of each other cannot you take a moment and look around you. Look at what you two have become, I mean really look. 

You don't get any of this time back, it's gone and every minute you spend in conflict is one that slips through your fingers, forever. Is this really how you wanted to spend the last 3 years? The next 3 years? It really is not so difficult, just put down the sword and walk away. You do have the power and the ability. Do you have the courage?


----------



## turnera

AMU, what say you about the yelling. The way HB tells it, you raise your voice constantly, daily. What's _your_ version of that?


----------



## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> Been awhile since I've chimed in on this relationship.
> 
> Truth be told, Harken hasn't ever gotten over what AMU did back in 2011. She stopped, but Harken hasn't processed it and seems unable to do so. Therefore, he has felt free to wield his own measure of inappropriate behavior, that may or may not have exceeded what his wife has done, and much more recently than AMU.
> 
> It's been 3+ years since AMU's indiscretions, which is still within the 2-5 years it typically takes for a betrayed spouse to heal from the shock and awe of infidelity. But it seems Harken isn't progressing toward healing at all.
> 
> The question is whether Harken can get to the point of forgiveness. So far, it is clear he has not. Maybe he has gotten to the point where he doesn't want to get divorced, but he really hasn't forgiven her. If he had, he wouldn't be on match.com, Facebooking the ex-GF despite the pain it causes AMU.
> 
> While this is going on, AMU has gotten angry, and is starting her list of crimes Harken is committing during this time, because no progress has been made on his end to productively process what happened and move forward.
> 
> In order for this misery to end, one of two things need to happen, IMHO.
> 
> 1) Harken, with AMU's help and support needs to take REAL steps to heal from what happened 3+ years ago, and decide to forgive his wife, so they can move forward, or
> 
> 2) Harken needs to realize he is unable to do #1, and therefore begin developing separation/divorce plans.
> 
> All I've seen is limbo here, with Harken not moving toward a productive place of forgiveness, and AMU reminding him of what he's doing wrong.


I'm a pretty simple man. I didn't know anything about affairs before this started. She kicked the sh*t out of me for years day in and day out and I could never make sense of it. Then the affair and me asking some pretty straight forward questions like what is this? who is this guy? relationship seems really weird? and getting kicked harder in the shins and hit with a bigger frying pan on the head for asking. I did not know about affairs until I found this site and a few others googling with terms descriptive of what was going on. One was really helpful and it may be referenced in initial foray but I don't remember the name now. That one I came across with a chart depicting 5 points or so on one side showing what the person whose spouse was having an affair was experiencing and 5 or so on the other describing behavior of the spouse having the affair. I found that before I found this site. I'll try to find it. It was helpful to me and started me on understanding this was an affair and part of what lead me here. Anyway, as has been noted I am repeating myself. Anger and abuse long preceded all of this. It was bad. The affair stuff completely threw me for a loop. I asked the questions of what is this it doesn't look good are we going to stay married what will happen to the kids and got no answer for more than 2 years or if there was an answer other than I don't know what I want but I want my space and to be away from you it was I hate you hate you hate you and can't wait to have you out of my life. This is the lite version. Some of it is in the threads. So damage is done and then there is an opportunity to heal and it is met with more damage with at least as much vengeance.


----------



## Harken Banks

Also, it was never like oh, yeah, I screwed up let's talk about how I got to this place and where we go from here. I don't want to try to re-describe it. It's in Initial Foray. Some of it.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> She kicked the sh*t out of me for years day in and day out and I could never make sense of it.


In what ways, specifically?


----------



## LongWalk

So the affair was incomprehensible, given the already high level of suffering?

When AMU gave birth to your daughters did you feel love her? If so, was it reciprocated?

From what AMU has written my impression is that she holds you in high regard, but she afraid that you are going to succumb to your illness. 

Facing that prospect is unbearable to her. 

You should record her shouting and play back to her in therapy.

Apparently alcohol rendered her shouting bearable, so she increased the volume. 

Reduce the negative feedback loop.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> So the affair was incomprehensible, given the already high level of suffering?
> 
> When AMU gave birth to your daughters did you feel love her? If so, was it reciprocated?
> 
> From what AMU has written my impression is that she holds you in high regard, but she afraid that you are going to succumb to your illness.
> 
> Facing that prospect is unbearable to her.
> 
> You should record her shouting and play back to her in therapy.
> 
> Apparently alcohol rendered her shouting bearable, so she increased the volume.
> 
> Reduce the negative feedback loop.


I should not record her. And these daily, near constant episodes are not directed only at me. But I should not record her. There is something in me that is decent that says don't.

For Turnera, no. I'm too tired and it has been noted already that I repeat myself a lot. It's not because I want to and I don't want to. Read the threads if you care and it's understandable if you don't. In any event and notwithstanding what has been written and of which you may freely avail yourself, I don't think written words can describe it.


----------



## LongWalk

AMU monitors your alcohol by photographing the bottles and their levels. Is that an invasion of privacy?

I don't you should conceal recordings to ambush her but to let her hear how you are interacting. You will also be recorded. You may also gain some insight.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> AMU monitors your alcohol by photographing the bottles and their levels. Is that an invasion of privacy?
> 
> I don't you should conceal recordings to ambush her but to let her hear how you are interacting. You will also be recorded. You may also gain some insight.


Just not how I want to live my life or share one with anyone else.

You asked a post or two up about when our daughters were born. I thought that was something we were experiencing together. No back and forth, so no reciprocation in that sense, just together.


----------



## Gabriel

It's probably true that words can't describe it, and that's likely the source of frustration for you, and many here, as we wade through it all.

If AMU was verbally and emotionally abusive long before the affair, then had the affair, then it seems by going after your actions and drinking, etc, is treating the effects rather than the source. With me so far?

Maybe then the real question is why had AMU been this way? Why so verbally abusive and explosive? And why the affair? What happened to her in the past that has caused her to act this way, and explode at her family? Has that been explored?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Gabriel said:


> It's probably true that words can't describe it, and that's likely the source of frustration for you, and many here, as we wade through it all.
> 
> If AMU was verbally and emotionally abusive long before the affair, then had the affair, then it seems by going after your actions and drinking, etc, is treating the effects rather than the source. With me so far?
> 
> Maybe then the real question is why had AMU been this way? Why so verbally abusive and explosive? And why the affair? What happened to her in the past that has caused her to act this way, and explode at her family? Has that been explored?


It is simple. Harken can travel through time to sidestep normal cause and effect.

His wife cheats, he turns to alcohol to cope.
then travels back through time with the alcoholism her cheating caused, so that it becomes her excuse for why she cheated. 

And LOL, it is 30+ pages of turnera and other members of the sistahood beating harken with this very fact.

And here he was looking for some support.

It's actually been quite a disgusting spectacle to watch him being kicked while he is down.


----------



## turnera

Actually, this is AMU's thread. But he keeps posting.


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## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Actually, this is AMU's thread. But he keeps posting.


And I became the subject. Read back. She doesn't even want to be here. I'd be delighted if she cared to participate. But she doesn't and she can leave the dirty work to you and she knows that.


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## oregonmom

The Cro-Magnon said:


> It is simple. Harken can travel through time to sidestep normal cause and effect.
> 
> His wife cheats, he turns to alcohol to cope.
> then travels back through time with the alcoholism her cheating caused, so that it becomes her excuse for why she cheated.
> 
> And LOL, it is 30+ pages of turnera and other members of the sistahood beating harken with this very fact.
> 
> And here he was looking for some support.
> 
> It's actually been quite a disgusting spectacle to watch him being kicked while he is down.


Wow.

I guess I am reading another thread. Who are these members of the sistahood letting AMU off the hook? I think everyone has said she has numerous things she needs to fix. I suppose you are throwing Bandit in there as a member of the sistahood too. He's always sticking up for wayward wives 

She caused his alcoholism? I had no idea she was holding him down and pouring alcohol down his throat. It's not her fault HB has chosen a sh!tty coping mechanism. He could have chosen something healthy like tons of other BS's have done but he chose to drink more. I suppose she caused his online dating too. Are you going to change your position then that what the spouse does DOES cause people to cheat? Cause that's what you're saying here. 

HB, I'm certainly not saying everything is your fault or that you deserved being cheated on, or you deserve her rages. You don't at all. What I am going to say is the way you are coping is going to destroy you. Don't you deserve better than the life you have been living for the past two years? I think you do. It kind of seems like you have given up and figure you have been sentenced to a life of misery. I can hear the pain in your posts even when you say it's fine. It hurts me. My WH can be a huge @ss a lot of the time, especially when it comes to the cheating. I don't think he will ever really get it. I can't rely on him to help me out of my pain at all, and sometimes he adds to it. But I have myself, and you know what? It makes me pretty dam proud of myself to know I am strong enough to get better without his help and that I could stop my own self destructive behaviors, which I have a ton of, despite whatever sh!t he throws at me. And trust me, if I can do it, you can.


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## Harken Banks

oregonmom said:


> Wow.
> 
> I guess I am reading another thread. Who are these members of the sistahood letting AMU off the hook? I think everyone has said she has numerous things she needs to fix. I suppose you are throwing Bandit in there as a member of the sistahood too. He's always sticking up for wayward wives
> 
> She caused his alcoholism? I had no idea she was holding him down and pouring alcohol down his throat. It's not her fault HB has chosen a sh!tty coping mechanism. He could have chosen something healthy like tons of other BS's have done but he chose to drink more. I suppose she caused his online dating too. Are you going to change your position then that what the spouse does DOES cause people to cheat? Cause that's what you're saying here.
> 
> HB, I'm certainly not saying everything is your fault or that you deserved being cheated on, or you deserve her rages. You don't at all. What I am going to say is the way you are coping is going to destroy you. Don't you deserve better than the life you have been living for the past two years? I think you do. It kind of seems like you have given up and figure you have been sentenced to a life of misery. I can hear the pain in your posts even when you say it's fine. It hurts me. My WH can be a huge @ss a lot of the time, especially when it comes to the cheating. I don't think he will ever really get it. I can't rely on him to help me out of my pain at all, and sometimes he adds to it. But I have myself, and you know what? It makes me pretty dam proud of myself to know I am strong enough to get better without his help and that I could stop my own self destructive behaviors, which I have a ton of, despite whatever sh!t he throws at me. And trust me, if I can do it, you can.


A lot of that I like. Did she cause my drinking or anything else I have done? No. Emphatically no. I never meant to suggest she did. What I do is up to me. Choices are tough. I don't think much of the self love stuff. The universe is cold and indifferent and yourself as you imagine probably does not exist. The dating stuff is because we have been in this purgatory for years I was tired of it and putting short life on hold. Nothing I have hidden from her or you. Nothing I have made inflammatory. Just is. I could not have imagined it before this but it seems OK now as there are no more any rules. They went somewhere to chase after affection which left a good 10 years before the rules.


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## warlock07

HB, you are destroying yourself and your family with your current approach and apathy. 

I can only imagine how disheartening it for AMU to deal with someone like you on a daily basis. 



> My current plan and desire is not to quit drinking, but to reestablish a healthier relationship with it. I think it can be done


I think it can be done. But I also think this what many addicts say to themselves to continue their addiction.


I think something big should happen before you realize what is happening here.


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## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> HB, you are destroying yourself and your family with your current approach and apathy.
> 
> I can only imagine how disheartening it for AMU to deal with someone like you on a daily basis.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it can be done. But I also think this what many addicts say to themselves to continue their addiction.
> 
> 
> I think something big should happen before you realize what is happening here.


I think I am done with big. I am done with drama. I have had enough and I am cured.


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## The Cro-Magnon

Harken Banks said:


> I think I am done with big. I am done with drama. I have had enough and I am cured.


Good. Alcohol is a fcuking poison. When my wife crushed my soul I found myself turning to it to cope. It makes everything worse. And it makes you weak. Never again will a drop of that shtt cross my lips. All the best mate.


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## oregonmom

Harken Banks said:


> A lot of that I like. Did she cause my drinking or anything else I have done? No. Emphatically no. I never meant to suggest she did. What I do is up to me. Choices are tough. I don't think much of the self love stuff. The universe is cold and indifferent and yourself as you imagine probably does not exist. The dating stuff is because we have been in this purgatory for years I was tired of it and putting short life on hold. Nothing I have hidden from her or you. Nothing I have made inflammatory. Just is. I could not have imagined it before this but it seems OK now as there are no more any rules. They went somewhere to chase after affection which left a good 10 years before the rules.


Honestly, I don't think you have suggested she caused it either. It troubles me that others have suggested it because I think that keeps you stuck.

I understand your feeling about being in purgatory. And feeling like there are no rules anymore too. Why do you want to continue that for any longer? When you are going thru hell don't stop to take pictures, get out. You are either going to get out by committing totally to fixing it or throwing in the towel. Right now you are just prolonging the misery and it seems like you can see that, why not stop it?


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## G.J.

HB QUOTE 2 JULY 2012 OPENING POST


> We have been married 12 years. We have 4 beautiful girls, ages 10 to 2. We are good parents and good people. The day-to-day has always been challenging, but I always took comfort in the assumption that no matter how many pots and pans we threw at each other (figuratively) we could always stop, hug, and recognize that we had each other and that togetherness would protect us from everything else.



AMU QUOTE 20 JULY 2012 OPENING POST


> We’ve now been married almost 12 years and have four beautiful little girls. Things have not been easy and the last several years
> have been a real struggle. We have simply not been good to each other.


How both perceived their marriage over the 12 years prior to the thoughtless actions of Amu is the same way both post.
No two people will see and feel an event the same way possibly even more so male/female
After 12 years of marriage with the pressure of children and long working hours by both parties if there are any flaws in their respective characters then those minor problems would grow unless worked on and kept in check
Then throw in after the 12 years an event that shifts HBs paradigm the only thing that can and will follow is chaos

So with that being said and with both of you starting from a different perspective of your marriage in ‘We have simply not been good to each other’ for Amu to ‘togetherness would protect us from everything else by HB’ following your posts became easier for me on a second read through

What comes across over the posts is that HB is as open as possible and is the emotional spouse of the two who thinks of him self as a straight up chap, Amu being more pragmatic and less emotional (NOT less caring for HB) That's the way i read the posts on my re-read which is the same as the make up in my marriage

I was going to post a load of telling remarks by both of them but it would bring up again the rawness of the event which HB can do with out and thank goodness for time helping to dull the pain

BUT the one thing that is clear if you go back to her first reach out to this community when she typed these words



> .want to save my marriage





> .I know I’ve shattered his dreams and I so want a chance to win back that trust. I love my husband with all my heart





> .this was the stupidest thing I’ve ever done in my life and I am so, so sorry


She DID want to save her marriage to you
Even a few days ago Amu is still posting !

.she has posted again even though she feels it doesn't help her

.She’s dug in and has taken most of what HB has thrown and flipped once big time with the ‘HOT’ comment

.Few days ago-


> ‘Started our day yesterday by giving HB a hug’+ ‘So I sat at the kitchen table, stared into his eyes and asked him what he wanted. His answer - kindness. We ended up spending an hour talking and then cuddling up in our room.’


So 2 plus years later does Amu want her Hubby still...YES
Does HB want Amu after what she did and all the turmoil since....YES

She has limited emotional remorse according to HB
He has a drink problem that has increased 

What to do ?????????

Speaking for some one who has had a virtually identical experience (EXCLUDING DRINK) and at this stage i really don't want to go into fine detail as I'm at a decent place at the minute
My wife who is Amu’s twin if my re-reading of the posts are correct didn't give me the remorse i thought i should have....no strike that...didn't give me what i craved for very long after it all came to light.

If as at one stage as discussed with our MC we had separated to stop the continual anger and emotional abuse i would have sort solace straight away in the arms of another women as in my make up separation is the end not the beginning of sorting out this cesspool of emotional turmoil.
one of my old flames had heard and was contacting me (who still loves me) so it doesn't take Einstein to understand what could possibly happen if i thought it was over,shoulder to cry on etc.I’m a good looking guy and my wife is the sort who will turn heads if she walks into a room so its not about me not being confident of myself

The BIG difference is around 6 months later when i still couldn't get my head around it SHE took the initiative and found another job with less hours and of course with no time away from the house (she WAS a CEO of a subsidiary company of a well know British Company)
As my wife was a virgin, that i think adds another dimension as a guy (me) who consciously feels this women has committed to me,only me,just me and worst she has to live up to the pedestal
To a women they don't really understand exactly how much that means to some guys deep down in their very soul, yep we hear all the time what does it matter you fooled around yadda yaddda ...just telling you how it is for me and if i guess correctly HB

Any way she resigned a few months after and first spent a lot of time with me building me up as i steered her into giving me a hug every time we parted or every time we met.
In the evenings after the hug and the ‘i love you’ i needed to hear we’d make a point of sitting down and having a coffee either at home or at lunch and spend the first 10 mins going through our day no matter who else was around...we told the kids it was mom+dad time those few first minutes every day

It actually turned things round...slowly, yes, but slowly as the months past and the pain diminishes i find myself in a ‘decent place’
We still have yelling fights and i still call her a w**** but they are less frequent and i can hold her hand sometimes or cuddle her with out thinking of some of the text i read

I was reluctant to post this as people ARE different but you 2 guys seem like myself and my wife mirrored across the ocean struggling the same way we did with loads of similar circumstances


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## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> Also, it was never like oh, yeah, I screwed up let's talk about how I got to this place and where we go from here. I don't want to try to re-describe it. It's in Initial Foray. Some of it.


Your both keep slinging the hurt at each other.

You both should face each other and say at the same time: " I screwed up. let's talk about how "we" got to this place and where we go from here".

Then stop the online shopping. Stop the drinking. No more online hunting for friends with benefits.

No more confiding/talking with the old GF. No more looking for other men to make yourself feel validated.

Clean up your acts.clean up your marriage. And provide a stable, happy and loving home for each other and your kids.

Your both smart. You both say you want to do it. So make a committment to each other and do it.

Or you can continue to pour gasoline over yourselves and each other.

While fighting about who is going to get to light the match.......


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## LongWalk

Harken Banks said:


> A lot of that I like. Did she cause my drinking or anything else I have done? No. Emphatically no. I never meant to suggest she did. What I do is up to me. Choices are tough. I don't think much of the self love stuff. The universe is cold and indifferent and yourself as you imagine probably does not exist. The dating stuff is because we have been in this purgatory for years I was tired of it and putting short life on hold. Nothing I have hidden from her or you. Nothing I have made inflammatory. Just is. I could not have imagined it before this but it seems OK now as there are no more any rules. They went somewhere to chase after affection which left a good 10 years before the rules.


One of the first forms of child play is rule making. Games come into existence because people who want to play together make up rules. Which dictionary should you use when playing Scrabble?

Young love makes its own original rules for love because the first young loves are unique discoveries. When first kissing or touching we go forward doing what instinct tells us to do, but at the same time we wonder what the rules are. How are we supposed to kiss this person, to love them?

Right now you are making up the rules to HB's new game, disregarding AMU. If AMU was a b!tch and cheated, end the game, according to the existing rules. Separate and divorce. Once you separate with the intention of divorcing you can date whomever you like.

You and AMU are co-dependent and do not know were your love begins and ends. 

AMU has been afraid that you have checked out and that you are going to divorce her. Go stand before her and ask for love and affection. Afterwards go to an Internet dating site and do same.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> One of the first forms of child play is rule making. Games come into existence because people who want to play together make up rules. Which dictionary should you use when playing Scrabble?
> 
> Young love makes its own original rules for love because the first young loves are unique discoveries. When first kissing or touching we go forward doing what instinct tells us to do, but at the same time we wonder what the rules are. How are we supposed to kiss this person, to love them?
> 
> Right now you are making up the rules to HB's new game, disregarding AMU. If AMU was a b!tch and cheated, end the game, according to the existing rules. Separate and divorce. Once you separate with the intention of divorcing you can date whomever you like.
> 
> You and AMU are co-dependent and do not know were your love begins and ends.
> 
> AMU has been afraid that you have checked out and that you are going to divorce her. Go stand before her and ask for love and affection. Afterwards go to an Internet dating site and do same.


There is a lot in here and I can only take it in small bites, so here are a few:

Co-dependent, yes. That has been obvious for a good long time. Lately I think I can stand on my own. And walk and run and play.

The marriage, I don't know. We get along in mostly civilized fashion now. If it ends, it ends. That would be sad. But I have had enough of sad. And not related to the previous thought I am not looking for another marriage or other love or affection. Just entertainment and amusement of the sort I had known before marriage. That no strings attached sort of stuff. Call me shallow.

Rules? Well, marriage entails rules, among them commitment and fidelity and support of each other. Rules in the context of marriage I believe in and think are good and not childish. I guess some would sum them up in terms of fidelity and vows of in sickness and in health and there is much more to the partnership that makes a marriage. Our relationship right now has no rules except pay the bills and raise the girls. We go to nice restaurants, live in a nice house, nice stuff and vacations and camps and all that. Have a lot of fun in the day-to-day and beautiful, loving girls, make no mistake. But it's a lawless place. There are actions and reactions and whatever fallout, but there are no more rules. Just what you will do and what others may do.


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## LongWalk

> That no strings attached sort of stuff. Call me shallow.


You desire something shallow because you aren't in shape to get involved in a serious relationship at time time. No strings attached means what? Flirtation and sex without family or obligation? If you do that, it will destroy your marriage. So the strings to AMU would be cut.

If AMU started seeing OM without strings attached, you'd not take it well.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> You desire something shallow because you aren't in shape to get involved in a serious relationship at time time. No strings attached means what? Flirtation and sex without family or obligation? If you do that, it will destroy your marriage. So the strings to AMU would be cut.
> 
> If AMU started seeing OM without strings attached, you'd not take it well.


Well, that has happened, hasn't it?


----------



## warlock07

So why do you do the same?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> So why do you do the same?


I don't think I do. I fought tooth and nail for our marriage and family while she carried on the whatever it was and ridiculed me. 2 years later, when it was clear as it had been for 10 years before she saw me with nothing but disdain, I said chuck it.


----------



## bfree

Harken, let me ask you a question if I may. What do you believe it would take to get you to a point where you'd be happy being married to AMU? Are there things that she could do that she isn't doing or hasn't done fully? Are there needs of yours that aren't being met? It seems to me that you'd rather stay married than not and you'd rather be happy than not. You are a very thoughtful and self aware man. Do you see a path that could be traveled to get to a place where you are both married to AMU and happy?


----------



## oregonmom

Harken Banks said:


> Well, that has happened, hasn't it?


Yes, it has. Of course I don't know for sure, but from what I have read here it seems like AMU knows she broke the rules, feels horrible about it, and is committed to playing by them from now on.

I think the point longwalk was trying to make is that if she went out and found an OM TODAY, you wouldn't like that too much. She's following the rules today and you aren't. If you think her breaking them two years ago gives you license to break them too, that's fine. But I think AMU deserves to know that now it's going to be an open marriage and what the new rules are. And you can't be mad if she decides she'd like some no strings attached fun too. I don't think that's what you want, but if it is, be honest about it.


----------



## Harken Banks

oregonmom said:


> Yes, it has. Of course I don't know for sure, but from what I have read here it seems like AMU knows she broke the rules, feels horrible about it, and is committed to playing by them from now on.
> 
> I think the point longwalk was trying to make is that if she went out and found an OM TODAY, you wouldn't like that too much. She's following the rules today and you aren't. If you think her breaking them two years ago gives you license to break them too, that's fine. But I think AMU deserves to know that now it's going to be an open marriage and what the new rules are. And you can't be mad if she decides she'd like some no strings attached fun too. I don't think that's what you want, but if it is, be honest about it.


She can do what she wants. That's the new paradigm. What I do, I can't say, but it's up to me. Had this played out differently I might have felt differently. It was a special kind of hell and she was the architect in chief.


----------



## Harken Banks

NoChoice said:


> Harken and AMU,
> 
> Marriage is like a fortress of solitude for two. A place where no one or no thing can gain entrance and do harm. It is the responsibility of BOTH parties to guard this fortress with all due diligence. Let your guard down and WHAM your defensive perimeter is compromised.
> 
> Circumstances have caused both of you to neglect your duties as watchdogs of the fortress and your perimeter was breached. You have both now drawn your swords and are furiously fighting but instead of repelling the attacking enemy you are fighting each other and a bloody brawl it has been. Your fortress is now in such a shambles that any intruder could just walk in and conquer but they don't, why? I believe it's because I and a few other posters see what you two do not seem to...the fortress walls are still up. How can this be with all of the devastation you have inflicted on one another for years now? Because despite your apparent apathy, you two still want the fortress to stand. Think of how strong this fortress could be if it received the proper attention and repair. PUT DOWN YOUR SWORDS and begin the task of undoing the damage to your fortress. There are 4 precious jewels in this fortress that are depending on you two to cease hostilities and begin effecting repairs.


I think this is well said and a great analogy for a time gone by. I am not fighting. I have left the field. Set sail from the shores of troy.


----------



## NoChoice

We can offer nothing of help to someone who does not want to be helped.

Fare Well our friend.


----------



## Harken Banks

NoChoice said:


> We can offer nothing of help to someone who does not want to be helped.


It's her thread anyway.


----------



## oregonmom

Harken Banks said:


> She can do what she wants. That's the new paradigm. What I do, I can't say, but it's up to me. Had this played out differently I might have felt differently. It was a special kind of hell and she was the architect in chief.


Well, thanks for being honest. Now I guess it's up to AMU if she wants to play anymore knowing the rules have changed.

Going off bfree's post, how could it have played out differently that you wouldn't feel that way?


----------



## Harken Banks

oregonmom said:


> Well, thanks for being honest. Now I guess it's up to AMU if she wants to play anymore knowing the rules have changed.
> 
> Going off bfree's post, how could it have played out differently that you wouldn't feel that way?


I'm happy. Not bound. Spilled milk. I don't believe much in the needs school. Needs are fundamental. The rest is what you make of the world.


----------



## Roselyn

Harken Banks said:


> Rules? Well, marriage entails rules, among them commitment and fidelity and support of each other. Rules in the context of marriage I believe in and think are good and not childish. I guess some would sum them up in terms of fidelity and vows of in sickness and in health and there is much more to the partnership that makes a marriage. Our relationship right now has no rules except pay the bills and raise the girls. We go to nice restaurants, live in a nice house, nice stuff and vacations and camps and all that. Have a lot of fun in the day-to-day and beautiful, loving girls, make no mistake. But it's a lawless place. There are actions and reactions and whatever fallout, but there are no more rules. Just what you will do and what others may do.


To AMU:

What is your response to Harken Banks statement in the quote? I would like to hear your viewpoint.


----------



## oregonmom

Harken Banks said:


> I'm happy. Not bound. Spilled milk. I don't believe much in the needs school. Needs are fundamental. The rest is what you make of the world.


:scratchhead:

I think it is quite clear from your posts that you aren't happy and this isn't just spilled milk.


----------



## LongWalk

*Going the wrong road*

In my lonely dysfunctional way, on Saturday I asked D17 if she wanted to go see '71, a movie about the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The IRA was always in the news when I was child. I actually had an aunt by marriage from there. Protestant, not Catholic. She died a few years ago but I can hear her voice in my head; her accent had a very Scottish breadth rather than the Irish lilt. She was blind in one eye but very good at seeing who you were with the good one. She made us fish and chips.

My daughter did not want to go. Too much biology homework, she claimed. Her sister, D19, was away at a competition. I wished that I could have gone but I didn't want to play and get stomped on. We have a team in the elite series and we don't belong there. We lost 30 – 1 and 16 – 0. My daughter didn't care because she is testing herself. Youth is brave. I have no enthusiasm for humiliation.

I stood in the mall after D17 said no. I checked the times '71 was showing on an iPhone 6 in a telecom store. Two tickets were left at 21:15. I tried to call and reserve one but I got a recorded message. I could have bought one online with my phone, but I didn't feel like struggling with punching card numbers in, so I decided to head into town on the chance that the remaining two seats would belong to a couple who would be happy sitting apart or even not going to the movies at all. 

I enjoyed the train ride into town. On the escalator 5 steps up was a young woman with a perfect butt. It was sad that I would never be going after such a bum again but still it was nice to appreciate her beauty. On the train I read a hard bound biography _*Bonhoeffer, Pastor, Prophet, Martyr, Spy*_. It is not my book but was lent to me by a former colleague who wanted me to find Jesus. That was 4 years ago and I never returned it or read it, though I knew it was precious to her. Less than a month before Hitler died, the Nazis executed Bonhoeffer.

I felt some relief that the book is very readable, except that the discussions of religious philosophy require concentration. I fear my mind is not so sharp. Some passages require three or 4 careful readings and even then the meaning comes fleetingly. It is hard for an atheist to completely get a literary discussion of faith.









*Fountain in the theater lobby*

My bet that there would be tickets left proved good. Selling them would have required two separate lonely dysfunctional persons or a divorcing couple who wanted to watch a movie about the Troubles sitting apart from each other.

I called a friend to see if he wanted to join me. His walk-away common-law wife left him. He has two teenage sons. He aged terribly after she left him. He would like a new woman but when you're cast off by one and you're into your 50s it takes some effort. He hasn't managed yet. We buried a friend who died of liver failure last year. I wrote you about that already. Anyway he wasn't up for a flick.

I called another friend who is also divorced. He has two daughters in their 20s. The youngest is studying in California. His life is hard. His widowed mother is a bit mad. So he has to go and visit her. His boss, the owner of his company, is ill with diabetes and cancer. My buddy, a very good salesman, is holding the company together, but he knows not what for. For when the owner dies or sells, he will be in a completely new situation. To cope with the anxiety he drinks a lot. He is functional but when he is, as the Swedes say, azz-packed, he can turn mean, though he was not at all an ill tempered person years ago. He was too far away and couldn't make it either.

I had to kill over two hours before the movie, so I went to have a Guinness in a very atmospheric restaurant with a high ceiling and a jugendstil wooden interior. The bartender, noticing me squint into my phone, suggested that I change the font size in settings. I am not too vain to wear bifocals but too lazy to get them.

Over the Guinness I read about the young German pastor who will die by the time I get to the end of the book. Suddenly the alcohol sharpened my senses. I was drinking it all in. The sound of the two women, one black with her short hair dyed blond, speaking French to her companion dressed in black leather. I think I could recognize them even now. Guinness is good for you.

The bartender poured me water without my asking. He seemed a nice guy, which is not so easy if you have work in a bar, for I think you will agree it is not always easy to like people. Some of us are better at it than others.

I watched a couple finish three drinks. The man had two at once while the woman had one. He had a neat reddish beard and moustache. The woman, a dishwater blond, had a sad expression that made her look either beautiful or vacant or some combination of the two. They drank quickly and left. And having nursed my pint 50 minutes, I brushed my hand over the pitted metal bar counter and left to get something to eat.









I remembered the Middle Eastern grill a block away. There was line out to the pavement. Two cooks stood framed by the charcoal smoke. i ate, looking at the crowd. People happiest when they eat together. What can be happier than a meal out that is a treat. It should cost enough so that it is special but not so much that is a stone of ruin. I drank a up of strong tea with a cube of sugar and left for the movie.

The man sitting in front of me was so tall that he blocked a bit of the screen, so I sat on the biography of the pastor and got an almost unimpeded view. The film was quite good but not great. A little Tarantino in its resolution.

Before and after the film I texted D19 about the matches. She was in fine spirits, despite the defeats.

I hope AMU will forgive me for meandering on her thread. And what have I gone on about except the fine feeling that a single pint can give. I tried to spot the other empty chair in the theater but couldn't see it. What if there were a single woman that I should have met? But single women don't go out to movies.

In any case, AMU although she once betrayed you and has given you grief for a decade is perhaps, besides your daughters, the person who would mourn you most if you were to leave the room. She loves you in her co-dependent way and you are puling away. Strange that the person who torments us most can be the person who is closest. But now you are giving up on her, stepping out. It's a sad business, this giving up and moving on.

But as HM observed the gasoline is everywhere and you just waiting to see who will light the match. I am sorry. I preferred the hot chocolate on mountain and melting snow on the floor of the car driving home.


----------



## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> She can do what she wants. That's the new paradigm. What I do, I can't say, but it's up to me. Had this played out differently I might have felt differently. It was a special kind of hell and she was the architect in chief.


Sorry HB, but this is BS.

She had her affair THREE YEARS AGO - for 2-3 months. You keep posting like she carried on with someone for years, and still is. She hasn't been unfaithful to you since then (at least that's what it sounds like). 

What you are doing is rejecting her attempts to reconcile, by doing whatever the hell you want. You want to keep staying married, and punish her forever.

You are using what she did 3 years ago as an excuse to not be accountable for your own behavior. Sorry, but that has an expiration date, HB. 

For comparison, my wife had her EA for about the same duration, about the same time ago (March-May 2011). While I don't trust the OM to ever be a part of her life again, I do not use what she did to cavort around with dating sites, and drink to excess, etc. 

So, back to my point. You either forgive her and move forward. Or you divorce. Or, you stay in miserable limbo forever and make zero progress. You've chosen Door #3.


----------



## MattMatt

This seems to be a loop playing on a playback device.

Can you turn it off, Harken? Please just give it a try.


----------



## LongWalk

Too bad GutPunch isn't around. He would have known how to admonish HB.


----------



## G.J.

Harken Banks said:


> She can do what she wants. That's the new paradigm. What I do, I can't say, but it's up to me. Had this played out differently I might have felt differently. It was a special kind of hell and she was the architect in chief.






Harken Banks said:


> There is a lot in here and I can only take it in small bites, so here are a few:
> 
> Co-dependent, yes. That has been obvious for a good long time. Lately I think I can stand on my own. And walk and run and play.
> 
> The marriage, I don't know. We get along in mostly civilized fashion now. If it ends, it ends. That would be sad. But I have had enough of sad. And not related to the previous thought I am not looking for another marriage or other love or affection. Just entertainment and amusement of the sort I had known before marriage. That no strings attached sort of stuff. Call me shallow.
> 
> Rules? Well, marriage entails rules, among them commitment and fidelity and support of each other. Rules in the context of marriage I believe in and think are good and not childish. I guess some would sum them up in terms of fidelity and vows of in sickness and in health and there is much more to the partnership that makes a marriage. Our relationship right now has no rules except pay the bills and raise the girls. We go to nice restaurants, live in a nice house, nice stuff and vacations and camps and all that. Have a lot of fun in the day-to-day and beautiful, loving girls, make no mistake. But it's a lawless place. There are actions and reactions and whatever fallout, but there are no more rules. Just what you will do and what others may do.


So the new rules are there are no rules and what happens happens.
Im in a decent place at the minute but you seem to be as some have called it 'Limbo'

I really am struggling to understand if there are no rules who is the instigator of this shift of the relationship.

.Are we saying its all on Amu by throwing away the rule book over 2 years ago ?

.The way its played out since and the bond between you is truly severed that has now set in place this new paradigm ?



Harken Banks said:


> I don't think I do. I fought tooth and nail for our marriage and family while she carried on the whatever it was and ridiculed me. 2 years later, when it was clear as it had been for 10 years before she saw me with nothing but disdain, I said chuck it.


So the marriage is finished as Amu has not brought anything to the table with you since 2012 ?



Harken Banks said:


> She can do what she wants. That's the new paradigm. What I do, I can't say, but it's up to me. Had this played out differently I might have felt differently. It was a special kind of hell and she was the architect in chief.


Amu then didn't jump through many hoops and handled the reconciliation disastrously even with you cheering her on ?



Harken Banks said:


> I think this is well said and a great analogy for a time gone by. I am not fighting. I have left the field. Set sail from the shores of troy.


So the flags gone up and the army has retreated 

My situation has played out differently at the minute and I really don't want to rub your nose in that....it may still fall to pieces BUT you loved her for all those years and through all the ups and downs which surely you contributed a few then a game changer came along that gutted you and turned up your world like nothing before and for the last 2 years you tried but Amu didn't do enough...I said do enough as the other option was ok then lets get divorced you can see the children every other week end etc.
I was lucky and my wife took a leap of faith and gave up a lot and that made the difference to me. Still can't get to grips with that as she's so hard nosed ?
I still didn't get the grovelling I needed at the time the constant sorry I was such a nasty person, I'm lucky to have you
I wouldn't have given up though if she hadn't have finished her career to try to save her marriage as I'm too entwined in her and she I hope with me but with different emotional levels .
Do you really want to go back out there and date the majority of women who have slept around and MAY make Amu look like Mother Teresa in a coma yea going out having a few laughs and getting a tingle on the first few dates is great but reading your posts you still cuddle up with Amu and I bet you feel secure some times in each others arms.
We all change in life as we get older the trick is trying to change together

if this comes across as meaningless drivel my apologies but been through/going through it myself my thoughts

had to edit 4 times


----------



## turnera

The one thing that keeps being brought up by HB that is NOT being addressed by AMU is her anger. I've asked her several times if it's true and she simply ignores my questions. If it IS true - and HB's friend verified it - then yes, he should stop hanging the affair over her head, but she should be addressing her anger in in-depth counseling. The anger can't continue.


----------



## Harken Banks

G.J. said:


> So the new rules are there are no rules and what happens happens.
> Im in a decent place at the minute but you seem to be as some have called it 'Limbo'
> 
> I really am struggling to understand if there are no rules who is the instigator of this shift of the relationship.
> 
> .Are we saying its all on Amu by throwing away the rule book over 2 years ago ?
> 
> .The way its played out since and the bond between you is truly severed that has now set in place this new paradigm ?
> 
> 
> 
> So the marriage is finished as Amu has not brought anything to the table with you since 2012 ?
> 
> 
> 
> Amu then didn't jump through many hoops and handled the reconciliation disastrously even with you cheering her on ?
> 
> 
> 
> So the flags gone up and the army has retreated
> 
> My situation has played out differently at the minute and I really don't want to rub your nose in that....it may still fall to pieces BUT you loved her for all those years and through all the ups and downs which surely you contributed a few then a game changer came along that gutted you and turned up your world like nothing before and for the last 2 years you tried but Amu didn't do enough...I said do enough as the other option was ok then lets get divorced you can see the children every other week end etc.
> I was lucky and my wife took a leap of faith and gave up a lot and that made the difference to me. Still can't get to grips with that as she's so hard nosed ?
> I still didn't get the grovelling I needed at the time the constant sorry I was such a nasty person, I'm lucky to have you
> I wouldn't have given up though if she hadn't have finished her career to try to save her marriage as I'm too entwined in her and she I hope with me but with different emotional levels .
> Do you really want to go back out there and date the majority of women who have slept around and MAY make Amu look like Mother Teresa in a coma yea going out having a few laughs and getting a tingle on the first few dates is great but reading your posts you still cuddle up with Amu and I bet you feel secure some times in each others arms.
> We all change in life as we get older the trick is trying to change together
> 
> if this comes across as meaningless drivel my apologies but been through/going through it myself my thoughts
> 
> had to edit 4 times


Thank you. That was thoughtful and considered. I'll read it again at least as many times as you edit. I really cannot go back to what it was like or how sustained, even to try to describe it. Psychologically, physiologically, or otherwise. I can't. Or maybe I won't. It broke me badly enough before. Many watching thought I might not come through and AMU watched and threw me an anchor or fifty. I have, but not without a lot of recovery yet to do. AMU has been really good lately and I don't want to take anything away from her recent effort. I cannot tell you the damage done.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



turnera said:


> The one thing that keeps being brought up by HB that is NOT being addressed by AMU is her anger. I've asked her several times if it's true and she simply ignores my questions. If it IS true - and HB's friend verified it - then yes, he should stop hanging the affair over her head, but she should be addressing her anger in in-depth counseling. The anger can't continue.


And that is why I stopped talking about Harken's drinking. He's already admitted that he felt it was excessive and took steps to address it. But AMU has never addressed her rage episodes and yet somehow Harken's drinking is at the forefront. I believe Harken when he says that AMU's anger was a problem long before her affair. Maybe if Harken had pushed back at that time then this might have been different. But he seems to naturally be a laid back person so I can see him trying to not upset her and avoiding her during these times. I think by not challenging her on her behavior he lost some respect points. And I do think AMU's anger does have it's genesis in alcohol but I don't believe that Harken's drinking is at the center.


----------



## LongWalk

Bfree,

You may be right. The reason that drinking is in the forefront is because it is killing him.

Furthermore, he needs the organ of reason to make a living and extract himself from the darkness.

Alcoholism is a disease.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



LongWalk said:


> Bfree,
> 
> You may be right. The reason that drinking is in the forefront is because it is killing him.
> 
> Furthermore, he needs the organ of reason to make a living and extract himself from the darkness.
> 
> Alcoholism is a disease.


I know. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Thing is that Harken is going to do what Harken wants to do. No amount of brow beating is going to change him unless he wants change..for him. If AMU is truly in al-anon then she already knows this. But is Harken's drinking the only issue here? It seems that everyone is focusing on this one issue at the expense of all others. It seems that people are assuming that AMU has resentment toward Harken's drinking possibly stemming from her mother's alcoholism. Well I'll go right back to al-anon and say this. If she is resentful then it means she is not sweeping her own side of the street. It means that she is not focusing on her own issues. Expectation is the enemy of serenity.


----------



## Gabriel

turnera said:


> The one thing that keeps being brought up by HB that is NOT being addressed by AMU is her anger. I've asked her several times if it's true and she simply ignores my questions. If it IS true - and HB's friend verified it - then yes, he should stop hanging the affair over her head, but she should be addressing her anger in in-depth counseling. The anger can't continue.


Yep, this too.

It sounds like AMU had anger issues before the affair. There should be some effort (if they both want to continue the marriage), to get to the root cause of this anger and deal with it.


----------



## vellocet

Ok Harken, here it is now. It has come to the point in this thread that now its even starting down the road of AMU's affair being understood, hence you are some sort of monster and people are looking at you with contempt.

So, with that, yes, you do need to get some help if you truly have a drinking problem as AMU describes.

But I think you need to, but probably can't, leave this thread for your own sanity, because the character assassination of you is starting to get sickening and I don't think this is going to help you.

I'm with you brother and would like to see you get well. Please do so.


----------



## AMU

I don’t think I’m avoiding questions – I don’t like to be on this site. I think it is incredibly detrimental to us and our marriage. Every time I post, it feels like dynamite is about to explode around here. In case it isn’t evident from HB’s posts, he is not very receptive to opposing viewpoints. How many times have you seen him lash out at someone on here when he doesn’t agree with what has been said – even those he respects, and then comes back and tempers his position. The one time we blew up at each other in the past week was over the weekend when I told him how ridiculous I felt he was being in painting the historical picture to his online followers. 

I think the two of us need to be talking together in a room with a MC to an individual who hears from both of us in person and can offer guidance on our situation, not an anonymous forum. I have asked him repeatedly for that. His response is that he called once, but then didn’t return her call. He walked away, so I feel like he has to be “in” if there is any chance of it helping. Sure, I can schedule it and drag him there, but everyone here knows that unless there is a willingness to make an effort, it will be time and money wasted. I have made it very, very clear to him and all of you that I would like to get back into counseling. He tells me he doesn’t believe it in. But what we are doing (or aren’t doing) isn’t helping – several of you have noted that you are hearing the same things over and over again. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I want to make changes – I want this to get better. 

As for my anger, yes I get angry and yell. More than I want to and more than I think is healthy for our family. Have I been doing something about it, yes. I saw an IC from Sept 2012-Jan 2013 and then started going to Alanon meetings. I found the Alanon meetings to be much more helpful than I found my IC – I felt like I reached a plateau with her and Alanon has helped me more. I’ve been going to Alanon since March 2013, reading the literature, looking inward at my own behaviors. It was both eye opening and also a relief to find others who have experienced what I have, who share similar stories and frustrations. Made me realize I’m not all alone in this journey. And how it’s so easy to get angry and try to control the situation instead of looking at what I control (my behavior) and what I don’t and take action only about what I do control. I’ve also looked at my trigger points and how to recognize them and then take actions that are different than how I might have reacted in the past. 

May seem like a silly example, but Turnera, you recently said "And can I ask you to do one more thing? Can you start having more meals at home? Even if you have to pick up ready made meals, take them home and eat them at the dinner table. Your kids NEED that sanity from you - eating at the dinner table and getting some semblance of a real family.” 

We have a gorgeous new kitchen and for the first time in seven years, a kitchen table that everyone fits around. You’ve heard how HB likes to garden and cook and he does. Yet most days every single surface of our new counters are covered with dirty pans, tons of vegetables, spices/oils/cutting boards and dirty knives on the counter and the sink full of soaking dishes – literally no space to prepare a meal. And the kitchen table we bought to finally enjoy as a family is HB’s office – his computer, music and all his hundreds of documents and notebooks cover most of the table. I go to open the fridge, and there is crusted food all over the handle. It grosses me out. In the past, I would have said to HB – this is absolutely disgusting and get upset. Now I do my best not to say anything. I clean off the handle of the fridge, I start cleaning the mess. HB will be sitting there at the kitchen table at his computer, sees me starting in on cleaning and jumps up and tells me to get away, he will take care of it. I say that I will, that it has now been there for 12 hours and I am going to go ahead and do it. He goes on and on about how he would rather do it himself than watch me with a scowl on my face. I tell him I don’t have a scowl, that I just want it to be clean and rather than hound him about it, I’m going to take care of it. He says “See I can’t do anything right” and I explain that I wasn’t saying he couldn’t do anything right, I was just going to take care of the mess without complaining and now he is starting a fight.

There are other times when I walk into the kitchen see the disaster and decide I don’t want to deal with it, I don’t want to allow this to trigger me and get angry so instead I say “Let’s go out to dinner.” I like to go out and it’s the one time where I DO have all the kids around the table with. Recently HB has been joining us almost every time we go out and it has been really nice – lots of family dinners together. The way both of us grew up and I love it. The number of times we’ve eaten dinner as a family around the kitchen table that was purchased a year ago in November – exactly twice – last Easter and last Christmas. You may say, why not move HB’s stuff? I do occasionally, and then the next day the table is covered again. And that isn’t mine to control – it’s his choice and I can choose to get angry or I can choose to take alternative actions that lead me to a much happier alternative.

I’ve also been involved with a group called Orange Rhinos, and done the founder’s Orange Rhino Challenge – this is a mother who shares her 365 day journey to yell less and love more. I am part of a closed Facebook group where we can share triggers, look at alternatives, share successes. What I have found over the past two years is that a lot of folks yell – a lot. Is it good, definitely not. But I have been and continue to take actions about it. Is it the way HB describes it, I don’t think so. Just like I think he has painted a picture for this forum that I don’t think remotely resembles reality, although perhaps it’s his reality. 

I just know that I get angry more than I like, that it’s been getting better rather than worse (despite many of the triggers around me getting much worse) and I am addressing it. Just because I don’t post, doesn’t mean nothing is happening. I don’t claim and never have claimed not to have issues. I think we both have a lot to work on if we have any hopes of reaching a healthy and loving relationship. I just wish our ships were sailing in the same direction on our desire to take positive action.


----------



## LongWalk

Hi AMU,

Nice to hear from you. Don't underestimate the forum. You have both gotten something out of it. You most definitely should go to counseling. You might even try counseling with the whole family. That would allow your children to speak. They must be weighed down.

HB admits that you are trying. That is positive don't you think?

It's hard to believe his online dating is serious. Seems to be a conscious provocation to avoid working on your marriage.

Perhaps HB's drinking has amounted to a form of rug sweeping. His feelings about the affair are still raw. Perhaps as he drinks less, the thoughts bother him more. If that is the case, then the reduction of alcohol will challenge you to interact positively.

Can you hire someone to come in once a week and clean the kitchen?

Is HB a good cook?


----------



## NoChoice

I think this forum may have turned into an enabling tool for HB. He's having an EA with TAM.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> May seem like a silly example, but Turnera, you recently said "And can I ask you to do one more thing? Can you start having more meals at home? Even if you have to pick up ready made meals, take them home and eat them at the dinner table. Your kids NEED that sanity from you - eating at the dinner table and getting some semblance of a real family.”
> 
> We have a gorgeous new kitchen and for the first time in seven years, a kitchen table that everyone fits around. You’ve heard how HB likes to garden and cook and he does. Yet most days every single surface of our new counters are covered with dirty pans, tons of vegetables, spices/oils/cutting boards and dirty knives on the counter and the sink full of soaking dishes – literally no space to prepare a meal. And the kitchen table we bought to finally enjoy as a family is HB’s office – his computer, music and all his hundreds of documents and notebooks cover most of the table. I go to open the fridge, and there is crusted food all over the handle. It grosses me out. In the past, I would have said to HB – this is absolutely disgusting and get upset. Now I do my best not to say anything. I clean off the handle of the fridge, I start cleaning the mess. HB will be sitting there at the kitchen table at his computer, sees me starting in on cleaning and jumps up and tells me to get away, he will take care of it. I say that I will, that it has now been there for 12 hours and I am going to go ahead and do it. He goes on and on about how he would rather do it himself than watch me with a scowl on my face. I tell him I don’t have a scowl, that I just want it to be clean and rather than hound him about it, I’m going to take care of it. He says “See I can’t do anything right” and I explain that I wasn’t saying he couldn’t do anything right, I was just going to take care of the mess without complaining and now he is starting a fight.
> 
> There are other times when I walk into the kitchen see the disaster and decide I don’t want to deal with it, I don’t want to allow this to trigger me and get angry so instead I say “Let’s go out to dinner.” I like to go out and it’s the one time where I DO have all the kids around the table with. Recently HB has been joining us almost every time we go out and it has been really nice – lots of family dinners together. The way both of us grew up and I love it. The number of times we’ve eaten dinner as a family around the kitchen table that was purchased a year ago in November – exactly twice – last Easter and last Christmas. You may say, why not move HB’s stuff? I do occasionally, and then the next day the table is covered again. And that isn’t mine to control – it’s his choice and I can choose to get angry or I can choose to take alternative actions that lead me to a much happier alternative.


Excuses. You're both lawyers. You make good money. Hire a damn maid. The money you spend on eating out could EASILY pay for a couple hours a day of maid service. Or buy a card table and set it up next to the dining table and serve dinner there. Or teach your kids to clean, like they should be doing by now.


----------



## bfree

AMU, you're in al-anon right? What do these mean?

S. T. E. P. S

D. E. T. A. C. H

L. O. V. E


----------



## bfree

For everyone else:

DETACH:*Don’t.*Even.*Think.*About.*Changing. Him/Her

“How can I best help the alcoholic? By not interfering when he gets into difficulties. I must detach myself from his shortcoming, neither making up for them nor criticizing them. Let me learn to play my own role, and leave his to him. If he fails in it, the failure is not mine, no matter what others may think or say about it.”

STEPS:*Solutions.*To.*Every.*Problem.

“If we have Al-anon, there is no need to stand in our own light and try to solve our problems in darkness. The ways and means that Al-anon offers have lighted the way for so many thousands of despairing people that no one can question their power. “When I am faced with a problem that seems impossible to solve, when I feel trapped in a situation and can see no way out, let me ask myself whether I am standing in my own light. I must find the vantage point where I can most clearly see my difficulty as it is; then answers will come.”

LOVE: Let.*Others.*Voluntarily.*Evolve

“The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them.”


----------



## AMU

HB is a good cook and enjoys it - he has enjoying making new creations with some new herbs and vegetables he grew this year. He especially loves the hot peppers and spicy things, although only one daughter shares that spiciness love so far - maybe with time. I am not a spicy, mouth on fire kind of girl either, so our food tastes differ. But he made some wonderful tomato sauces and pestos from garden supplies, many of which are in our freezer. Homemade pizzas with the sauce. Veggie chili and a recent yummy bean soup.

As I said in my first paragraph, it sucks to post. HB just returned from a run and I heard him yelling at the girls (who are home from school for conferences/Veterans Day). They asked him how to spell a word and he yelled at them to leave him alone. I then heard several huge booms and went downstairs and found him throwing his papers and binders from the kitchen table into a pile on the floor. He is now going through the house kicking things. This is why I don't like to post.


----------



## oregonmom

LongWalk said:


> Bfree,
> 
> You may be right. The reason that drinking is in the forefront is because it is killing him.
> 
> Furthermore, he needs the organ of reason to make a living and extract himself from the darkness.
> 
> Alcoholism is a disease.





bfree said:


> I know. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Thing is that Harken is going to do what Harken wants to do. No amount of brow beating is going to change him unless he wants change..for him. If AMU is truly in al-anon then she already knows this. But is Harken's drinking the only issue here? It seems that everyone is focusing on this one issue at the expense of all others. It seems that people are assuming that AMU has resentment toward Harken's drinking possibly stemming from her mother's alcoholism. Well I'll go right back to al-anon and say this. If she is resentful then it means she is not sweeping her own side of the street. It means that she is not focusing on her own issues. Expectation is the enemy of serenity.


I agree with both of you and you both bring up great points.

Here is where I'm coming from. I'm a BS and I'm a wife of an addict. I have focused on HBs drinking because I agree with LongWalk, that is going to kill him. I have also reached out privately to AMU and focused on what I feel she needs to do. I'm also a member of AlAnon, and I know he won't change unless he wants to. I'm not sold he doesn't want to. I see him talking in circles a lot. I don't want to drink so much, I know I have a problem, I like drinking, there is nothing wrong with it, all of this hurts on a level you can't imagine, I'm happy, it's just spilled milk. I see confusion, and I hope there may be something I post that may help ease that confusion. Not by brow beating him, by trying to point out his circular thoughts. If he wants me to bug off, I'd be happy to. But I see signs of hope, and I'm not going to just forget about it because it is much bigger than his marriage. It's his life. No life, no marriage for sure.

Is AMU keeping her side of the street clean? No. And I'd agree that her resentment started with her mom. She has a whole lifetime of unhealthy relationships and the resentment doesn't just go away. Maybe she's not working hard at it, maybe she is. But a saint who works their butt off isn't going to learn a whole different life in two years after living the first 30+ a different way. 

Which brings me to another point, how do we keep our side of the street clean in AlAnon? By detaching. If we are detaching from someone who is taking charge of their own side of the street, it is healthy for a marriage. You meet in the middle. When you are detaching from someone who isn't healthy, it causes indifference. Indifference is a marriage killer.

Should the focus be all on HB? No. Should the focus be all on AMU? No. Either way spells the end of their marriage I think. HB can stop drinking and stop the online stuff and if AMU is raging, no good. AMU can become the pillar of sweetness and never raise her voice or cheat again, and if HB is still drinking, no good. I think if AMU wasn't here, more people would be urging HB to focus on what he could control than what his wife was doing. Same with AMU. I think brokenshadow's thread is a good example of that. I am trying to stay consistent in offering that to both.


----------



## G.J.

AMU said:


> I don’t think I’m avoiding questions – I don’t like to be on this site. I think it is incredibly detrimental to us and our marriage. Every time I post, it feels like dynamite is about to explode around here. In case it isn’t evident from HB’s posts, he is not very receptive to opposing viewpoints. How many times have you seen him lash out at someone on here when he doesn’t agree with what has been said – even those he respects, and then comes back and tempers his position. The one time we blew up at each other in the past week was over the weekend when I told him how ridiculous I felt he was being in painting the historical picture to his online followers.
> 
> *Hello AMU and good to see you post even though it goes against what you think is best
> I'm not receptive to opposing views either in general every day situations if there way off the mark but I would imagine when there on a personnel level which is the case then perhaps many would baulk and dismiss quickly any talk of self weakness in character/make up, where I think a forum like this comes into its own is that the poster can feel he's not on his own especially guys who tend not to be so open on emotional issues with their friends. Also some times a shot hits the mark and the person reconsiders.
> I've read both of your posts side my side over that last few days and its difficult to make a decent suggestion as there is so much information needed to form an opinion on what is needed to help
> BOTH of you move need to forward. So I agree with you it can be detrimental but surely if HB thinks it helps him to use this forum as a sound board or able throw his thoughts out there what's on his mind at any given time instead of bottling it up, that's good isn't it? *
> 
> I think the two of us need to be talking together in a room with a MC to an individual who hears from both of us in person and can offer guidance on our situation, not an anonymous forum. I have asked him repeatedly for that. His response is that he called once, but then didn’t return her call. He walked away, so I feel like he has to be “in” if there is any chance of it helping. Sure, I can schedule it and drag him there, but everyone here knows that unless there is a willingness to make an effort, it will be time and money wasted. I have made it very, very clear to him and all of you that I would like to get back into counseling. He tells me he doesn’t believe it in. But what we are doing (or aren’t doing) isn’t helping – several of you have noted that you are hearing the same things over and over again. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I want to make changes – I want this to get better.
> 
> *Both of you with an NEW MC together would be really great
> My only caveat would be the MC from the start knows that separation for self building isn't on the table as HB (as you know) will see it as the end. I felt the same in my situation
> You said unless there's a willingness from him its a waste of money ...not surprising as last time he/she MC advised separation didn't they? and that made matters worse.
> NOTHING is a waste of money if its to try to reconcile.
> 
> I must be insane then, as after 18 months I still say the same things over and over, though not as much recently . You I felt from the little posted never made a 'leap of faith' as I called it in one of my reply's, he never thought you showed ENOUGH remorse and not for any where near long enough. That would not be your fault I would guess(again not enough is known) as your persona sounds similar to my wife's in as much as after a given amount of time her thought was 'come on get over it'. She denies it BUT that's how I SEE IT...... my reality and HBs I think
> AGAIN you don't seem to want to grab the bull by the horns and be proactive and MAKE IT HAPPEN. If it fails what have you lost...a bit of money! A lot of HBs continued despair (I think it seems like despair) is perhaps that you didn't be PROACTIVE ENOUGH WITH HIM (again only from what's been posted)*
> 
> As for my anger, yes I get angry and yell. More than I want to and more than I think is healthy for our family. Have I been doing something about it, yes. I saw an IC from Sept 2012-Jan 2013 and then started going to Alanon meetings. I found the Alanon meetings to be much more helpful than I found my IC – I felt like I reached a plateau with her and Alanon has helped me more. I’ve been going to Alanon since March 2013, reading the literature, looking inward at my own behaviors. It was both eye opening and also a relief to find others who have experienced what I have, who share similar stories and frustrations. Made me realize I’m not all alone in this journey. And how it’s so easy to get angry and try to control the situation instead of looking at what I control (my behavior) and what I don’t and take action only about what I do control. I’ve also looked at my trigger points and how to recognize them and then take actions that are different than how I might have reacted in the past.
> 
> *Angers an issues I would have thought in most marriages but its all about degrees isn't it.Again not enough information other than HB thinks its Linda Blair swivel head anger...well tell him to be with my wife who's Sicilian and makes Vesuvius seem like an air bubble, Is it right she can be like that, errr no But she has learnt to control it better since last year so I wonder how much her 80 hours a week workaholic life style is to blame as it use to build up inside waiting for the vent to be opened by me
> Funny thing is no one but me and the kids knew she had such volatile temper tantrums*
> 
> May seem like a silly example, but Turnera, you recently said "And can I ask you to do one more thing? Can you start having more meals at home? Even if you have to pick up ready made meals, take them home and eat them at the dinner table. Your kids NEED that sanity from you - eating at the dinner table and getting some semblance of a real family.”
> 
> We have a gorgeous new kitchen and for the first time in seven years, a kitchen table that everyone fits around. You’ve heard how HB likes to garden and cook and he does. Yet most days every single surface of our new counters are covered with dirty pans, tons of vegetables, spices/oils/cutting boards and dirty knives on the counter and the sink full of soaking dishes – literally no space to prepare a meal. And the kitchen table we bought to finally enjoy as a family is HB’s office – his computer, music and all his hundreds of documents and notebooks cover most of the table. I go to open the fridge, and there is crusted food all over the handle. It grosses me out. In the past, I would have said to HB – this is absolutely disgusting and get upset. Now I do my best not to say anything. I clean off the handle of the fridge, I start cleaning the mess. HB will be sitting there at the kitchen table at his computer, sees me starting in on cleaning and jumps up and tells me to get away, he will take care of it. I say that I will, that it has now been there for 12 hours and I am going to go ahead and do it. He goes on and on about how he would rather do it himself than watch me with a scowl on my face. I tell him I don’t have a scowl, that I just want it to be clean and rather than hound him about it, I’m going to take care of it. He says “See I can’t do anything right” and I explain that I wasn’t saying he couldn’t do anything right, I was just going to take care of the mess without complaining and now he is starting a fight.
> 
> There are other times when I walk into the kitchen see the disaster and decide I don’t want to deal with it, I don’t want to allow this to trigger me and get angry so instead I say “Let’s go out to dinner.” I like to go out and it’s the one time where I DO have all the kids around the table with. Recently HB has been joining us almost every time we go out and it has been really nice – lots of family dinners together. The way both of us grew up and I love it. The number of times we’ve eaten dinner as a family around the kitchen table that was purchased a year ago in November – exactly twice – last Easter and last Christmas. You may say, why not move HB’s stuff? I do occasionally, and then the next day the table is covered again. And that isn’t mine to control – it’s his choice and I can choose to get angry or I can choose to take alternative actions that lead me to a much happier alternative.
> 
> *The kitchen you have left to HB then as he likes to cook ? what ever domestic situation suits but dish's and pots are easily washed and dried and put away after eating BY BOTH OF YOU involve the children as I use to love the kids trying to come up with wriggle out excuses after a family meal, funniest times are had after dinner messing around in the kitchen talking and fooling in the kitchen
> Ever said I'd like to cook a meal for us tonight to show my appreciation for my love for you yadda yadda.Clean the kitchen first then do it, start from there having meals in the house...we go out for meals a couple of times a week BUT EVERY DAY !!!...what bonding is that for you and the kids and hubby in a restaurant ???
> I.M.O. kids,may be completely missing out on this as eating TOGETHER in the cave is a primitive throw back to forming community bonding a bed rock for chatting
> 
> HB get rid of your mini office in the kitchen F.G.S.
> And Amu is your bedroom still your office (tell me its not)
> 
> I'm really at a loss for anyone who can not organise their kitchen to be cleaned and used as such on a daily basis!
> Get a cleaner daily and have you not enough rooms for an office ?*
> 
> I’ve also been involved with a group called Orange Rhinos, and done the founder’s Orange Rhino Challenge – this is a mother who shares her 365 day journey to yell less and love more. I am part of a closed Facebook group where we can share triggers, look at alternatives, share successes. What I have found over the past two years is that a lot of folks yell – a lot. Is it good, definitely not. But I have been and continue to take actions about it. Is it the way HB describes it, I don’t think so. Just like I think he has painted a picture for this forum that I don’t think remotely resembles reality, although perhaps it’s his reality.
> 
> I just know that I get angry more than I like, that it’s been getting better rather than worse (despite many of the triggers around me getting much worse) and I am addressing it. Just because I don’t post, doesn’t mean nothing is happening. I don’t claim and never have claimed not to have issues. I think we both have a lot to work on if we have any hopes of reaching a healthy and loving relationship. I just wish our ships were sailing in the same direction on our desire to take positive action.
> 
> *Yep his reality..if he's cut down on the drink then his reality hopefully be coming along in line with yours BUT the biggest problem some times is not only to get the ships sailing in the same direction but them both being kept TOGETHER.
> We do a lot of things together since my wife changed course last year some times its things she doesn't like that much other times its stuff im not really into but end of the day we are closer today than we were before the recklessness of her actions
> Its really great to hear about Orange Rhinos and with HB cutting down on his tipples  *


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> As I said in my first paragraph, it sucks to post. HB just returned from a run and I heard him yelling at the girls (who are home from school for conferences/Veterans Day). They asked him how to spell a word and he yelled at them to leave him alone. I then heard several huge booms and went downstairs and found him throwing his papers and binders from the kitchen table into a pile on the floor. He is now going through the house kicking things. This is why I don't like to post.


AMU, people are unlikely to change as long as the dysfunction is 'comfortable enough.' In other words, if the pain of changing is bigger than the pain of surviving in the dysfunction, people will stick with the dysfunction. Until the level of pain shifts to the point that it makes more sense for you to go ahead and make changes.

Posting is obviously shaking things up, he's obviously not enjoying the status quo any more, so I'd look at that as a good thing, even if he is kicking stuff around. One way or another, y'all's conversation here is going to lead to some changes.


----------



## BrockLanders

AMU, I'm like your husband when it comes to cooking. I'm a good cook but I'm an absolute slob. When my wife and I got married I was the one who cooked dinners with the agreement that since I cooked she would clean up. She eventually got sick of my messes and she seized cooking duties, lol.

What helps me out sometimes is using disposable tin pans and disposable paper plates sometimes. I use them while cooking too - I'll have one for garbage where I can put discarded bits on onion, garlic, etc. It certainly makes life easier sometimes.

Good luck on that Orange Rhino challenge. That looks extremely hard! Is that something you guys could do together?


----------



## Gabriel

Why is he going around the house kicking things? Is this a reaction to your posting to TAM?


----------



## MattMatt

Gabriel said:


> Why is he going around the house kicking things? Is this a reaction to your posting to TAM?


Or a reaction to his girls daring to ask him to help spell a word?:scratchhead:


----------



## Harken Banks

We patiently spelled the word "Legos" letter by letter, several times. We had been playing Legos all morning and had moved on to writing about it. Our 5 year old asked again about the spelling and showed me her work. The O was an E. She exclaimed "eraser!" and went to find one. Then as she was erasing a fight broke out over whose eraser it was and whose pencils they were and I have no patience for that.

Kicking things or falling over them? Maybe AMU can post some pictures of the offending objects.


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> Or a reaction to his girls daring to ask him to help spell a word?:scratchhead:


Yes, I'd like to find this out myself.

HB, can you elaborate? Is the truth being told here? Because I can't see yelling at the kids over something like this.


----------



## MattMatt

Harken Banks said:


> We patiently spelled the word "Legos" letter by letter, several times. We had been playing Legos all morning and had moved on to writing about it. Our 5 year old asked again about the spelling and showed me her work. The O was an E. She exclaimed "eraser!" and went to find one. Then as she was erasing a fight broke out over whose eraser it was and whose pencils they were and I have no patience for that.


You have no patience for that? Perhaps you need to develop some?

Did you really go round kicking stuff and throwing your files on the floor?

If so, that's not setting a good example to your girls.

And they deserve better.


----------



## Roselyn

AMU & HB: Have you considered selling your story to a Hollywood sitcom agent? You have everything in your life; more actions than any reality show I've seen. There's love, hate, success, infidelity, jealousy, beauty, children, careers, drama, and the longest threads I've read. Seriously, your posts have more drama than the current "Kardashians" or "Two Broke Girls" segments.


----------



## Harken Banks

This is so dumb. I quit. Anyone remember Caper?


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> You have no patience for that? Perhaps you need to develop some?
> 
> Did you really go round kicking stuff and throwing your files on the floor?
> 
> If so, that's not setting a good example to your girls.
> 
> And they deserve better.



I have 2 kids that fight over the dumbest stuff and it gets to be too much, especially when one starts to hit the other. So I understand where he is coming from there.

So still not sure what version of what happened is accurate.

AMU says he yelled at the kids over simply asking how something is spelled, HB contends it was over them fighting over an eraser.

Something tells me the fight is what he yelled about. Not one of his kids simply asking how to spell something.


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> I have 2 kids that fight over the dumbest stuff and it gets to be too much, especially when one starts to hit the other. So I understand where he is coming from there.
> 
> So still not sure what version of what happened is accurate.
> 
> AMU says he yelled at the kids over simply asking how something is spelled, HB contends it was over them fighting over an eraser.
> 
> Something tells me the fight is what he yelled about. Not one of his kids simply asking how to spell something.


Try 4. Matt, how many kids do you have? The selfish and mean fighting with each other over the silliest and most meaningless things drives me nuts and I have no patience for it. Sometimes I say stop Goddamit! Sometimes I send one or more to time out. Sometimes I tell them to go to another room where I cannot hear them and have at it.


----------



## vellocet

But the question is, is AMU lying about you yelling simply because one of your kids asked how to spell something, or was it over this fight they were having?

She said you yelled at them to leave you alone over spelling something? Is that true?


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> But the question is, is AMU lying about you yelling simply because one of your kids asked how to spell something, or was it over this fight they were having?
> 
> She said you yelled at them to leave you alone over spelling something? Is that true?


No. We had spent the entire morning and into the afternoon together. Then I had to leave for some meetings. AMU had not emerged from her office bed, pictures of which scene would cause you reflexive gag at the clutter and debris. There.


----------



## vellocet

Ok, so AMU, did you lie about why he yelled in order to paint him in a bad light?


----------



## G.J.

vellocet said:


> But the question is, is AMU lying about you yelling simply because one of your kids asked how to spell something, or was it over this fight they were having?
> 
> She said you yelled at them to leave you alone over spelling something? Is that true?


It doesn't matter as if you read through the posts on both threads most flare ups are looked at from entirely different perspectives and the participants I'm afraid see the lowest denominator.
The way forward from the limited information on these posts I.M.O. is to do things together and sit down as soon as possible (when in a calm frame of mind) after a flare up and discuss what they think caused the reaction EVEN if they don't agree
I Really don't think it helps as this stage for us to be asking who said what and why, if they want to offer the information then fine


----------



## vellocet

Yes, it does matter. Trying to find out if there is some character assassination going on. I'm thinking yes, but I'll wait for AMU to answer.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> Yes, it does matter. Trying to find out if there is some character assassination going on. I'm thinking yes, but I'll wait for AMU to answer.


Yep. Good call. Let's wait.


----------



## Harken Banks

I don't think it is character assassination on AMU's part, just deeply ingrained defenses.


----------



## G.J.

Harken Banks said:


> AMU had not emerged from her office bed, pictures of which scene would cause you reflexive gag at the clutter and debris. There.


F.G.S.
A kitchen that's family unfriendly and a bedroom that's couple unfriendly

You guys like to make it hard on each other
Next time I'm in the Carri I'll nip over with a team and build an office for you both


----------



## Harken Banks

G.J. said:


> F.G.S.
> A kitchen that's family unfriendly and a bedroom that's couple unfriendly
> 
> You guys like to make it hard on each other
> Next time I'm in the Carri I'll nip over with a team and build an office for you both


Kitchen is fine. Wonderful. And we have 2. In the main, we also have an island where I usually feed the kids and do homework and a big farmhouse kitchen table which right now has on it some kids art and kids books and my laptop. Not a thing more.


----------



## G.J.

Harken Banks said:


> Kitchen is fine. Wonderful. And we have 2. In the main, we also have an island where I usually feed the kids and do homework and a big farmhouse kitchen table which right now has on it some kids art and kids books and my laptop. Not a thing more.


Any chance of asking Mrs Osbourne if she could get the film crew over for a month :banghead:


----------



## Harken Banks

G.J. said:


> Any chance of asking Mrs Osbourne if she could get the film crew over for a month :banghead:


We do our best. AMU is out now at the movies with the oldest 3. I am home with the youngest who is throwing up and we are watching movies on TV and sipping water as she can.


----------



## G.J.

Hope you both enjoy the movie 

Must get bed now its late and I don't want my P.A. coming over to wake me up again to take me into the office (yep it use to be that bad for me at one time) :redcard:


----------



## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> Any chance of asking Mrs Osbourne if she could get the film crew over for a month :banghead:


_Threadejack alert._

My wife and I once met Mr Osbourne when he was visiting his family in Birmingham. We had a few drinks with him in a bar (Yates' Winelodge) and had a good, long chat with him.

He's a nice bloke.

_We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread._:smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

G.J. said:


> A kitchen that's family unfriendly and a bedroom that's couple unfriendly


You both are harming each other. She took over the bedroom. You took over the kitchen. But if I had to keep track, it's the kitchen takeover that's harming the family the most. You can always go to work at your office, HB, and leave the kitchen table to the family.


----------



## AMU

vellocet said:


> Yes, it does matter. Trying to find out if there is some character assassination going on. I'm thinking yes, but I'll wait for AMU to answer.


No, I'm not lying to paint HB in a bad light. I was home with the girls while he went running. HB and I both worked today, although the girls were home due to a day off for conference. HB walked in the door and went into the kitchen where the girls were making lists for Santa. I heard the girls running around and HB yelling at them to cut it out. I then heard three very loud booms, which turned out to be him throwing his stacks of papers and binders from the kitchen counter onto the floor, followed by him yelling loud enough that I heard the words from upstairs "Enough - just leave me alone!" And our 8 year came up the stairs and asked me how to spell "utensil" because dad told her he wouldn't. 

The three things on her list in this order are Legos, art utensils and a pet bird. I wrote it out for her on a piece of paper and then went downstairs to make sure everything was ok - I saw HB standing next to the kitchen table with all his papers on the floor looking upset so I went back upstairs. Shortly after, he came up to take a shower kicking things along the way. This all happened within 20 min of my post about the kitchen, so yes, I think there was a direct correlation to his behavior. I wasn't kidding when I said the tension in the air when I post is palpable.


----------



## MattMatt

AMU said:


> No, I'm not lying to paint HB in a bad light. I was home with the girls while he went running. HB and I both worked today, although the girls were home due to a day off for conference. HB walked in the door and went into the kitchen where the girls were making lists for Santa. I heard the girls running around and HB yelling at them to cut it out. I then heard three very loud booms, which turned out to be him throwing his stacks of papers and binders from the kitchen counter onto the floor, followed by him yelling loud enough that I heard the words from upstairs "Enough - just leave me alone!" And our 8 year came up the stairs and asked me how to spell "utensil" because dad told her he wouldn't.
> 
> The three things on her list in this order are Legos, art utensils and a pet bird. I wrote it out for her on a piece of paper and then went downstairs to make sure everything was ok - I saw HB standing next to the kitchen table with all his papers on the floor looking upset so I went back upstairs. Shortly after, he came up to take a shower kicking things along the way. This all happened within 20 min of my post about the kitchen, so yes, I think there was a direct correlation to his behavior. I wasn't kidding when I said the tension in the air when I post is palpable.


Thanks for that clarification.

Hope she gets what's on her list.

HB, displays of bad temper like that really help nobody.


----------



## turnera

AMU, why is there so much stuff available to kick around? 

Who isn't picking stuff up? As I said before, you can afford to hire a maid service.


----------



## AMU

MattMatt said:


> Hope she gets what's on her list.


Not so sure about the pet bird. A golden retriever, cat, hamster, two chickens and two ducks may be all this house can handle!


----------



## AMU

turnera said:


> AMU, why is there so much stuff available to kick around?
> 
> Who isn't picking stuff up? As I said before, you can afford to hire a maid service.


An ongoing issue in the house and everyone is guilty, kids included. My recent goal has been to keep the areas where the family congregates clean and welcoming - the family room, kitchen and basement family room and playroom. We also have lots of things that need to be donated or put away in the attic and master closet - both of which are awaiting the contractor finishing them. HB and I are both working on getting the house into order, which looks like it may require mediation or a lawsuit.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> An ongoing issue in the house and everyone is guilty, kids included. My recent goal has been to keep the areas where the family congregates clean and welcoming - the family room, kitchen and basement family room and playroom. We also have lots of things that need to be donated or put away in the attic and master closet - both of which are awaiting the contractor finishing them. HB and I are both working on getting the house into order, which looks like it may require mediation or a lawsuit.


Everyone is guilty? I suppose, to one degree or another. This seriously side-steps a major, major disorder that has seriously impacted everyone in the household for as long as we have had one. Just a few pictures would blow your minds.


----------



## LongWalk

If you love each other, your kids will remember. Our house was messy but we had love.

Do you think they have noticed that things are improving? Mom is yelling less. Dad is more focused.


----------



## G.J.

G.J. said:


> if you read through the posts on both threads most flare ups are looked at from entirely different perspectives and the participants I'm afraid see the lowest denominator.


As per my previous post the other day, if you just follow AMU and HBs posts from this flare up it shows no one is flat out fibbing its just that each see it from a different light, I would think most people on the planet are guilty and who here doesn't omit or emphasise details some times, again though its just the degree



turnera said:


> AMU, why is there so much stuff available to kick around?
> Who isn't picking stuff up? As I said before, you can afford to hire a maid service.


Yep
BUT

We occasionally go for dinner parties at a friends, I suppose you would call it a house although that's an understatement and if you happen to wander away from the dinning room or drawing room the house looks as though they've had a drugs raid and didn't have time to tidy up. Apparently according to my wife who has toured the house reports their bedrooms are just as bad but as he's what I call a caricature of a British eccentric and she's always half soaked I guess it doesn't matter much in there case as they are so laid back and they fit like a pair of old shoes.
I always have to smile as the stables are immaculate !!!
now that's what I call getting your priority's right <cough> amazingly there kids are adorable. 



Harken Banks said:


> Everyone is guilty? I suppose, to one degree or another. This seriously side-steps a major, major disorder that has seriously impacted everyone in the household for as long as we have had one. Just a few pictures would blow your minds.


Ohh wish your put out a warning when your about to post an esoteric one liner

We use to have flare ups a few times a day at the weekends and some times late evenings but some were way out of line such as if I was disciplining one of the children she would step in and use the occasion to try to undermine me and bring up an argument we've had recently.
The scenes over the last 12 months are a lot more controlled and have reduced by a good 50% and only twice in front of the children. Yes i know even once is too many.

Anyway need to be up North by midday so T.T.F.N.


----------



## Harken Banks

What does she accuse me of? 1. Anger 2. Clutter. Because she knows its so absurd and backwards that I will be completely flummoxed.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> An ongoing issue in the house and everyone is guilty, kids included. My recent goal has been to keep the areas where the family congregates clean and welcoming - the family room, kitchen and basement family room and playroom. We also have lots of things that need to be donated or put away in the attic and master closet - both of which are awaiting the contractor finishing them. HB and I are both working on getting the house into order, which looks like it may require mediation or a lawsuit.


Excuses, again. Get some paper boxes from work and bring them home. Every day, you and the kids go around the house and fill that box with donations to get rid of - including ONE item from each of the kids' stuff. On Saturday, you take 5 boxes to Good Will, to teach the kids the act of giving.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> What does she accuse me of? 1. Anger 2. Clutter. Because she knows its so absurd and backwards that I will be completely flummoxed.


Well, just yesterday examples were shown that you 1. show anger toward your kids and 2. keep the kitchen table so cluttered that you can shove it all off the table - in anger.

Who CARES if she does it, too? YOU own YOUR issues. YOU fix YOUR side. If she sees you making gestures, so will she.

And that goes for you, too, AMU.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> Well, just yesterday examples were shown that you 1. show anger toward your kids and 2. keep the kitchen table so cluttered that you can shove it all off the table - in anger.
> 
> Who CARES if she does it, too? YOU own YOUR issues. YOU fix YOUR side. If she sees you making gestures, so will she.
> 
> And that goes for you, too, AMU.


That isn't always true. Why people keep saying that line, I'll never understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Of course it isn't always true. NOTHING is always true. But it IS a step forward, and is the right thing to do. That's why people keep saying that line. It's a human's role to at least TRY to do the right thing.

Given what little they have going for them, doing the right thing would at least be a breath of fresh air in that wretched household.

If each of them continues to sit in their corner of the ring, refusing to act because the other one is 'worse,' they'll still be rattling their sabres on their deathbeds, and they'll have raised some seriously mentally disturbed kids/adults. SOMEbody needs to make some moves.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Well, just yesterday examples were shown that you 1. show anger toward your kids and 2. keep the kitchen table so cluttered that you can shove it all off the table - in anger.
> 
> Who CARES if she does it, too? YOU own YOUR issues. YOU fix YOUR side. If she sees you making gestures, so will she.
> 
> And that goes for you, too, AMU.


This is just dumb. A parent who has never shown anger towards their kids? That is idiotic and could make sense only to someone who never had kids and never knew their parents or even knew any other parents very well. Keeping the kitchen table cluttered? There is nothing on it now and I bought the damn thing and all the chairs and benches around it so that we would have one as it would not get done otherwise. You're a very judgmental sort.


----------



## turnera

Not judging, just responding to what you and your wife post here. SHE says you took over the table and even if it gets cleared off, it's all back on there the next day. SHE says it's never cleared off enough to use to eat dinner at. 

And fwiw, I've never yelled at my DD24. If she did something wrong, I went up to her, said 'let's talk,' and we sat down and talked about what she was doing and why it was wrong. Yelling is NOT necessary in raising kids.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Not judging, just responding to what you and your wife post here. SHE says you took over the table and even if it gets cleared off, it's all back on there the next day. SHE says it's never cleared off enough to use to eat dinner at.
> 
> And fwiw, I've never yelled at my DD24. If she did something wrong, I went up to her, said 'let's talk,' and we sat down and talked about what she was doing and why it was wrong. Yelling is NOT necessary in raising kids.


It's all back there the next day? Is this like the then right back at it comment? 

You had one child. How special. And you never yelled at her, not even to break up a fight with her sisters. Oh, wait.


----------



## Harken Banks

I'm here again today with 4 girls and one of them throwing up every 5 minutes and me holding her and her hair out of the vomit. Turnera, you know nothing.


----------



## turnera

So you're father of the year. Does negate the other stuff going on in your marriage. Doesn't make AMU the source of all y'all's problems - although she has her share of fault.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> It's all back there the next day?


According to AMU.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> According to AMU.


Pics or it didn't happen. I'll share mine. AMU would be mortified.


----------



## Harken Banks

As promised, I did not go to the POD or attic or basement or barns or my parents' to give the full scope: 

Kitchen table. The heavy stuff is to come. I am new with this attachment stuff.


----------



## Harken Banks

Nother view of kitchen.


----------



## Harken Banks

Here we go, maxed out on 5, more to come.


----------



## Harken Banks

some more


----------



## Harken Banks

On we go. 5000 square feet full of stuff. I haven't even started.


----------



## turnera

Nice house. It's a shame the two of you are so stubborn and bent on winning that you won't work together to do something about the mess.


----------



## Harken Banks

increments of 5


----------



## Pluto2

Harken, you made the point you wanted to make.
This isn't helpful or healthy


----------



## Harken Banks

there's more. This uploading stuff takes forever and as I mentioned this is the tip of the iceberg, but where we live. So, Turnera, you have seen the mess that is my kitchen office and you have had a glimpse of the rest. Stay tuned for another pic. Daughters and I just brought a writing desk downstairs that will be my workspace at home until I re-furnish.


----------



## pidge70

Oh God, my OCD!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

New workspace or area. Some refurnishing is in order. I like it and always thought it would come to this. I am closer to the garden and further from the din and clamor. Harbor views quite nice. AMU will have to raise herself from bed more often.

Sh*t. Kids' playroom is down here too and now they are doing belly flops on yogibos and playing keyboards. They have all followed me down here.


----------



## Harken Banks

Pluto2 said:


> Harken, you made the point you wanted to make.
> This isn't helpful or healthy


Well hopefully we won't hear anymore about how Harken is a slob and his slobbiness is upsetting our family life. Record needs straightening.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Nice house.


I didn't show the nice parts or property. It's a beautiful house. What has been done to it is a shame. Worse.


----------



## Openminded

Has that always been the case?


----------



## Harken Banks

Openminded said:


> Has that always been the case?


yep, but it accreted box by box, pile by pile. I had no idea before our first house. It's OK, but it's nuts. And when she screams at me or shoots a dirty look or whatever about the problems in the house are messes I have made I don't know what to do. At all. We also have storage spaces and barns and my parents' house full of bins and bins and piles and piles. The kitchen table is currently devoid of anything mine. Wow. Took about 5 minutes.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Well hopefully we won't hear anymore about how Harken is a slob and his slobbiness is upsetting our family life. Record needs straightening.


Of course it does. You cannot bear to lose.

I didn't say you were a slob, I said that, according to AMU, you are disrupting the center of the home, the kitchen/kitchen table, rendering it unusable for other family uses. By taking over the table, you ARE upsetting the family life. I hope you get to enjoy your new office soon.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> yep, but it accreted box by box, pile by pile. I had no idea before our first house. It's OK, but it's nuts. And when she screams at me or shoots a dirty look or whatever about the problems in the house are messes I have made I don't know what to do. At all. We also have storage spaces and barns and my parents' house full of bins and bins and piles and piles. The kitchen table is currently devoid of anything mine. Wow. Took about 5 minutes.


Good. Keep it that way. She expressed a Love Buster, you addressed it, as spouses are supposed to do. What SHE does is HER problem, her choice. You can only clean up your own side. 

Now, about that paper box I suggested filling up each day...


----------



## oneMOreguy

HB......I have always believed that your version has been closer to reality and that AMU has become good at deflection to both you and us. Sadly your method/style of writing seems to lead some to think that you are twisting the facts. And that leads them to come back and blame you excessively. I actually think that you have been downplaying the situation somewhat and the elaborate prose is your way of dealing with painful facts without confronting them head on. And yes... you have used booze in the same way... Not as an alcoholic but as a drug to avoid confronting all of the cr*p going on. 

As for amu....I am sure she has some wonderful traits and certainly communicates directly and strongly. But I am just as sure that she has misled us....and once dishonesty is demonstrated...another person never knows in the future what is really truth.

Amu.... my best advice is go to ic and be truly honest about your life and all of its painful aspects. You are reacting to lots of hurt in your life growing up.

And hb....better more effective coping skills are in order. Your pain bleeds thru on every post.


----------



## turnera

I fully believe HB is miserable and that his wife is miserable TO him. I've taken her to task nearly every time she posts. I also believe that just blaming her for everything doesn't help anyone. He said she said solves nothing. ONE of them needs to start leading the family.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Of course it does. You cannot bear to lose.
> 
> I didn't say you were a slob, I said that, according to AMU, you are disrupting the center of the home, the kitchen/kitchen table, rendering it unusable for other family uses. By taking over the table, you ARE upsetting the family life. I hope you get to enjoy your new office soon.


You never give an inch, do you? Wrong, flat wrong. Assertively and certainly so, then still wrong. And then well that's what I meant in the first place. Gadfly.


----------



## oneMOreguy

turnera said:


> Harken Banks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well hopefully we won't hear anymore about how Harken is a slob and his slobbiness is upsetting our family life. Record needs straightening.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it does. You cannot bear to lose.
> 
> I didn't say you were a slob, I said that, according to AMU, you are disrupting the center of the home, the kitchen/kitchen table, rendering it unusable for other family uses. By taking over the table, you ARE upsetting the family life. I hope you get to enjoy your new office soon.
Click to expand...

her complaining about the table was masterful deflection....keeps attention away from the rest of the house. ..including the marital bed. You provide such good advice to so many....but can you calmly reflect and consider whether you are being fair and objective here. The problem with both of them being here.... is that truth can be lost and we start believing the party that we empathize with the most. HB came here first looking for help. ..I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt regarding the truth. Try to recall all of the lying deceiving and misleading that amu did during her affair. She is certainly more than capable of lying to get her way and defend herself.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Seeking Advice*



turnera said:


> Of course it does. You cannot bear to lose.
> 
> I didn't say you were a slob, I said that, according to AMU, you are disrupting the center of the home, the kitchen/kitchen table, rendering it unusable for other family uses. By taking over the table, you ARE upsetting the family life. I hope you get to enjoy your new office soon.


Apologies are rare these days, it seems.


----------



## oneMOreguy

turnera said:


> I fully believe HB is miserable and that his wife is miserable TO him. I've taken her to task nearly every time she posts. I also believe that just blaming her for everything doesn't help anyone. He said she said solves nothing. ONE of them needs to start leading the family.


hb I think is willing to lead...but why do you think she is willing or capable of following? Amu denies or minimizes her issues.....affair....anger....hoarding.....quite a list actually.


----------



## Harken Banks

I hope my writing is not elaborate. Descriptive, maybe. A flourish of lyric from time to time. But the words come and I do not call them. Precise is what I aim for.


----------



## bfree

Oh boy.


----------



## bfree

This is why I said we cannot focus on Harkens drinking. There are a lot more problems that need to be addressed.


----------



## oneMOreguy

And hb......time for me to piss you off. You strike me as just another one of those dozens of guys that come here and refuse to do anything to change their life... including maybe leaving a marriage....because of the "kids".

Well you are not particularly special. Takes two for a good marriage and kids always know the difference and yes it will provide awful role modeling. Both of you can start over with new lives and you and the kids will be just fine. Or can you just not acknowledge the failure of a marriage? You guys have deep issues. Both have to be in all the way for a fix or end it and achieve a new beginning.


----------



## Pluto2

Harken Banks said:


> Precise is what I aim for.


You used to say you aimed and hoped for kindness. I believe it is still there, but today it appears elusive.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Harken Banks said:


> I hope my writing is not elaborate. Descriptive, maybe. A flourish of lyric from time to time. But the words come and I do not call them. Precise is what I aim for.


Cr*p.....I am a double engineer and wrote lengthy technical reports for federal law enforcement. Precision is not what comes to mind when I read your posts.


----------



## oneMOreguy

And yes I was grinning when I wrote about your precision.... you do seem likeable......but very very stuck/stymied when it comes to your wife.


----------



## AMU

oneMOreguy said:


> HB......I have always believed that your version has been closer to reality and that AMU has become good at deflection to both you and us. Sadly your method/style of writing seems to lead some to think that you are twisting the facts. And that leads them to come back and blame you excessively. I actually think that you have been downplaying the situation somewhat and the elaborate prose is your way of dealing with painful facts without confronting them head on. And yes... you have used booze in the same way... Not as an alcoholic but as a drug to avoid confronting all of the cr*p going on.
> 
> As for amu....I am sure she has some wonderful traits and certainly communicates directly and strongly. But I am just as sure that she has misled us....and once dishonesty is demonstrated...another person never knows in the future what is really truth.
> 
> Amu.... my best advice is go to ic and be truly honest about your life and all of its painful aspects. You are reacting to lots of hurt in your life growing up.
> 
> And hb....better more effective coping skills are in order. Your pain bleeds thru on every post.


Can I ask about what I've misled?


----------



## BrockLanders

Harken Banks said:


> Here we go, maxed out on 5, more to come.



This room is bigger than my entire house lol, and I have 4 kids too, lol. Your kitchen table is bigger than the space one can walk around in my kitchen! The hoi polloi here are really going to have to stretch the bounds of bounds of empathy to understand why two intelligent, successful people can't manage to consolidate clutter into one space in a 5000sq ft home. This situation is beyond absurd. Frankly, you two should be ashamed of yourselves.


----------



## turnera

oneMOreguy said:


> hb I think is willing to lead...but why do you think she is willing or capable of following? HB denies or minimizes his issues.....drinking....anger....needing to be right.....quite a list actually.


AMU is going to AA...HB is not. AMU is addressing her anger...HB says it's natural to have anger. AMU says she's tried to make the affair up to him and has never cheated since...he regularly contacts women and makes no bones about it. AMU stresses how much the drinking affects her...HB says he can handle it, but won't quit.

SHE is addressing her issues; he is fighting tooth and nail to resist admitting he has any and flat out denies everything she says.

She's no princess and I keep asking her to show us steps on what she's changed, which she has. The only change he's made
is to cut BACK on his LEVEL of drinking for 2 or 3 weeks. Which he now says he won't quit because ... get ready for it ... he can handle it.

You call that leading?


----------



## oneMOreguy

AMU said:


> oneMOreguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> HB......I have always believed that your version has been closer to reality and that AMU has become good at deflection to both you and us. Sadly your method/style of writing seems to lead some to think that you are twisting the facts. And that leads them to come back and blame you excessively. I actually think that you have been downplaying the situation somewhat and the elaborate prose is your way of dealing with painful facts without confronting them head on. And yes... you have used booze in the same way... Not as an alcoholic but as a drug to avoid confronting all of the cr*p going on.
> 
> As for amu....I am sure she has some wonderful traits and certainly communicates directly and strongly. But I am just as sure that she has misled us....and once dishonesty is demonstrated...another person never knows in the future what is really truth.
> 
> Amu.... my best advice is go to ic and be truly honest about your life and all of its painful aspects. You are reacting to lots of hurt in your life growing up.
> 
> And hb....better more effective coping skills are in order. Your pain bleeds thru on every post.
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask about what I've misled?
Click to expand...

...complaining about a messy table when much of the house is trashed. 

....complaining about a raised voice to kids when the anger mgt issue is seemingly yours by your own posts. Heck I raised two sons and my voice was loud on many occasions. Not an anger mgt thing tho.

Look...don't need to engage me or really anyone here about your view of reality. We don't matter. What matters is how far apart you and hb are about things/reality. Both of you want to be a good person in this. ..thus the emphasis on winning. I think the winner will be who sees through the other's eyes first. Hopefully you will both win in this marriage. After all... that is why all of us post. But don't minimize your own issues...especially to create doubt about hb. That is throwing the marriage on the scrap heap.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> AMU is going to AA...HB is not.


In some very small place in my heart I feel AMU is going to AA and started the program at a particularly interesting time in some part to be able to say I am a victim and deserving of sympathy because I am married to an alcoholic and any problems may be pinned on that. $.02.


----------



## turnera

Well, for whatever reason, we can hope that she DOES go and does get something out of it that promotes her interest in fixing her side of the street. At least she's getting help. What happened to the MC you said you were making an appointment with?


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> In some very small place in my heart I feel AMU is going to AA and started the program at a particularly interesting time in some part to be able to say I am a victim and deserving of sympathy because I am married to an alcoholic and any problems may be pinned on that. $.02.


Why not quit drinking and find out?



You would both be better for it.......

Win Win in my book.


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> Why not quit drinking and find out?
> 
> 
> 
> You would both be better for it.......
> 
> Win Win in my book.


I have tried that experiment. Makes no difference. Remember watership down when the rabbits discover the cars don't care.


----------



## turnera

Three weeks does not a change make. And you didn't stop. You modified.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Three weeks does not a change make. And you didn't stop. You modified.


Modification was the happiest outcome. There were 3 doors. One was you are walking dead. Another was you are walking and probably feeling a bit dead because you have lost a love you can never have back. The third was, hey, it's not so bad. I got door #3. Maybe you can now explain to me the difference between modification and change.


----------



## turnera

happyman said why not QUIT drinking, you replied that you tried that. You didn't. You just cut back. It's not semantics between modification and change; it's actual quitting vs. cutting back. But it's your choice. I'm not one to preach; I like my wine and don't wanna give it up, either. It's just that you come here supposedly wanting something better in your life and posters show you a clear path toward something better, but what it really amounts to is that you want something better, but to you that means you want someone ELSE to make changes so you get something better. 

Who knows? Maybe just cutting back will be enough to give you some quality of life. I wish you well.


----------



## MattMatt

OK, let's see what happens when there are two people living together both who are trained to beat the other side into a pulp by simply using debating tricks and techniques.

Oh. Now we see what happens. And it doesn't look too pretty, does it?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> happyman said why not QUIT drinking, you replied that you tried that. You didn't. You just cut back. It's not semantics between modification and change; it's actual quitting vs. cutting back. But it's your choice. I'm not one to preach; I like my wine and don't wanna give it up, either. It's just that you come here supposedly wanting something better in your life and posters show you a clear path toward something better, but what it really amounts to is that you want something better, but to you that means you want someone ELSE to make changes so you get something better.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe just cutting back will be enough to give you some quality of life. I wish you well.


It's a tiresome form of conversation with you. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. With you, it's one declaration after another that proves to be completely misplaced and instead of ever saying hey, yeah, I guess I didn't see it that way you double down on I was right all along. I can tell you care.


----------



## Harken Banks

Matt, give me a break. What tricks have I employed? AMU basically begged for me to post some pictures with her false posturing, You and others were on the bandwagon. To nowhere. There was no there. Now that has been shown. I am tending as I have been all afternoon to our still sick 5 year old and now my station is in the basement and I think she is more comfortable on upper floors even as she insists on being here with me I am mostly staying with her upstairs so I may be slow to reply but the continuous flood of nonsense here is remarkable.


----------



## ThePheonix

I haven't read all 44 pages of this thread so some of the below may have been addressed, and I probably missed plenty. From what I got out of it, both were having menage a trois with others. It seem that AMU is being skewered much worse than Harken. Is there not just as much chance Harken was banging the former girlfriend as AMU doing the OM?

AMU, you said nothing physical happened and said you'd take a poly so why not go ahead and do it on you own. Put together a few questions and let it rip. If you pass, rub it under everybody's nose. If you fail, that's another matter. PM me and I'll tell you how I did this selfie polygraph) to make some folks shut their mouths.

Harken, you've got two choices my man. Either go or stay. Whatever your old lady did cannot be undone. All the complaining about being hurt, losing the love you thought you had, etc. is for nothing. AMU said she'd take a poly. Take her up on it. Its the best way possible to know the "whole story". 
If your not satisfied with the results, that whatever action you deem appropriate.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Drat.......Can't anyone see that hb is using alcohol as an escape...to avoid deciding to end his marriage. Maybe it was alcohol abuse but certainly more of a symptom than a root cause of what is going on here.

HB....you might be best served by going to another site where your wife does not participate. Or bite the bullet and keep trying different ICs until you click with one. These arguments/posts on here are becoming circular...boring in the original sense of the word. Don't see how they could be helpful to you really.


----------



## Harken Banks

ThePheonix said:


> I haven't read all 44 pages of this thread so some of the below may have been addressed, and I probably missed plenty. From what I got out of it, both were having menage a trois with others. It seem that AMU is being skewered much worse than Harken. Is there not just as much chance Harken was banging the former girlfriend as AMU doing the OM?
> 
> AMU, you said nothing physical happened and said you'd take a poly so why not go ahead and do it on you own. Put together a few questions and let it rip. If you pass, rub it under everybody's nose. If you fail, that's another matter. PM me and I'll tell you how I did this selfie polygraph) to make some folks shut their mouths.
> 
> Harken, you've got two choices my man. Either go or stay. Whatever your old lady did cannot be undone. All the complaining about being hurt, losing the love you thought you had, etc. is for nothing. AMU said she'd take a poly. Take her up on it. Its the best way possible to know the "whole story".
> If your not satisfied with the results, that whatever action you deem appropriate.


Dude, I was ripping her seams day in and day out. You are right on it.


----------



## Harken Banks

I don't mean to be flip. Old GF is one of many old gfs. 
And she is an especially dear friend and contact is mostly out of bounds which I think is wrong. We had a drink and lunch and a walk and coffee. It's all chronicled. Wasn't planned to happen that way. But it's not like the biggest thing in our marriage. 

I have never asked about her past boyfriends and yet conversations and more have been made about mine. I have had a few very close relationships and countless more I cannot remember. Old GF mentioned here is one and a close relationship. I care very much for and about her. I consider her a good friend and exceptional person and will probably until the day I die. Oh well.


----------



## ThePheonix

Do you think what she did is inherently worse than what you did? Like I said, I didn't read it all but enough to get the impression both of you were getting a lot of mileage out of your opposite sex buddies.


----------



## Harken Banks

ThePheonix said:


> Do you think what she did is inherently worse than what you did? Like I said, I didn't read it all but enough to get the impression both of you were getting a lot of mileage out of your opposite sex buddies.


Feel free to drop in and say I have no idea what any of this is about but I have an opinion.


----------



## Harken Banks

Furniture is on order. Liking the new space.


----------



## G.J.

ThePheonix said:


> I haven't read all 44 pages
> 
> AMU, you said nothing physical happened and said you'd take a poly so why not go ahead and do it on you own. Put together a few questions and let it rip. If you pass, rub it under everybody's nose. If you fail, that's another matter.
> 
> Harken, you've got two choices my man. Either go or stay.


Hi All
Nice to see the house HB but you really should have picked up the cakes from the table as it makes it look untidy

ThePheonix If you read BOTH posts as this is AMUs thread you will see both have a completely different perspective of what happens on a daily basis (bit like being married I guess)
HB has had his guts wrenched out and played with for a long time now but he wont let go as he still has a bond with AMU
What the Event also did over 2 years ago was to bring out the problems they had neglected for the previous 12 years.
There is no doubt from the postings I.M.O. had AMU been MORE proactive in perhaps getting a poly done (HB would possibly have stopped her anyway as he really isn't into invasion that way) and carried on being remorseful, for a much longer period than a few weeks as HB sees it and if they then started working on their problems that had been brought to light no doubt they would be in a better place.
Recently they have been getting on a little better from deciphering HBs posts and what AMU posts (sorry HB but as I said you are sometimes a little esoteric)
Amu will try to post in her favour which is only to be expected, aren't we all a little guilty of that, though perhaps not to such an extent!
Someone posted a few days ago I think that it would be best for them to have a break from here for a while.I didn't agree at the time but the poster was right. I think it would be most beneficial as AMU reads every thing that is posted and she is now adamant it causes more instability in their life BUT Hb I think is now attached a little to this forum, which I understand as its helped me over this last week just being in here (interest declaration: same situation as HB)

Just my thoughts


----------



## Harken Banks

G.J. said:


> Hi All
> Nice to see the house HB but you really should have picked up the cakes from the table as it makes it look untidy
> 
> ThePheonix If you read BOTH posts as this is AMUs thread you will see both have a completely different perspective of what happens on a daily basis (bit like being married I guess)
> HB has had his guts wrenched out and played with for a long time now but he wont let go as he still has a bond with AMU
> What the Event also did over 2 years ago was to bring out the problems they had neglected for the previous 12 years.
> There is no doubt from the postings I.M.O. had AMU been MORE proactive in perhaps getting a poly done (HB would possibly have stopped her anyway as he really isn't into invasion that way) and carried on being remorseful, for a much longer period than a few weeks as HB sees it and if they then started working on their problems that had been brought to light no doubt they would be in a better place.
> Recently they have been getting on a little better from deciphering HBs posts and what AMU posts (sorry HB but as I said you are sometimes a little esoteric)
> Amu will try to post in her favour which is only to be expected, aren't we all a little guilty of that, though perhaps not to such an extent!
> Someone posted a few days ago I think that it would be best for them to have a break from here for a while.I didn't agree at the time but the poster was right. I think it would be most beneficial as AMU reads every thing that is posted and she is now adamant it causes more instability in their life BUT Hb I think is now attached a little to this forum, which I understand as its helped me over this last week just being in here (interest declaration: same situation as HB)
> 
> Just my thoughts


Oblique maybe, but if so it's just the difference between me and the world.


----------



## ThePheonix

Harken Banks said:


> Feel free to drop in and say I have no idea what any of this is about but I have an opinion.


You're right. I assumed; and you know what assumed means.


----------



## Harken Banks

ThePheonix said:


> You're right. I assumed; and you know what assumed means.


We're good.


----------



## AMU

Harken Banks said:


> I don't mean to be flip. Old GF is one of many old gfs.
> And she is an especially dear friend and contact is mostly out of bounds which I think is wrong. We had a drink and lunch and a walk and coffee. It's all chronicled. Wasn't planned to happen that way. But it's not like the biggest thing in our marriage.
> 
> I have never asked about her past boyfriends and yet conversations and more have been made about mine. I have had a few very close relationships and countless more I cannot remember. Old GF mentioned here is one and a close relationship. I care very much for and about her. I consider her a good friend and exceptional person and will probably until the day I die. Oh well.


Old GF is NOT just one of many old GFs. She was your steady high school girlfriend and then on again off again in college. You experienced some difficult decisions together at age 17/18 and felt bonded by that painful experience. You reconnected again shortly before we met when we were 30 and were again sleeping with her when you broke up with her to date me. During the first 12 years of our marriage, she expressed continued interested in you through mutual friends and when you told me about this, I said I wasn't comfortable with you responding to her – that with your history I considered her a threat and didn’t feel comfortable with you being in touch. She wanted you, and to this day has never married – even you believe it is in part because of her attachment to you.

Out of respect for me, you did stay out of touch with her until Jan of 2011 when you reached out to her via Facebook. And that started eight months of communication, texts, e-mails and then several in person secret meetings that you have admitted you had no intention of telling me about until you got caught. Even after you told me about that full day meeting (I didn’t learn about the previous meeting or Facebook messages, texts and calls until I personally searched for and discovered it on my own – you had no intention of sharing that either), you asked to meet her for coffee ONE LAST time before she left town again, just to say good-bye because you cared so much for her. I asked if I could go along and you said no, that wouldn't be fair to Old GF (but is was fine to exclude me). So I asked you not to go and you still went.

I only learned later that the day before you went for coffee she had propositioned fooling around when you walked her back to her car (after spending a full day downtown with her and ignoring all my calls and voicemails). And that after promising me you wouldn’t be in touch again after that day in Sept, you called her the next week just to see how she was. As far as I know, you weren’t in touch with her again until the following March when you reached out a month and a week late to wish her a happy birthday. Because I was monitoring your computer at that point, I knew that you had reached out to her via Facebook so when you walked into the room at your parents’ house, closed the door and said you had something you needed to tell me, my heart was in my feet, as I was sure you were going to tell me you were leaving me for her. I was felt immense relief to learn that you “only” wanted to tell me that your mom had backed into and bashed in my car. You weren’t leaving me after all. That is what an impact this time had on me.

But it hasn’t ended there, has it? You have been back in touch with her many times, held multi-hour calls with sent texts back and forth (the history of which you delete from your phone – only discovered through the phone records I can now no longer access since you changed the password) and just two weeks ago sent her a message saying “love you” despite the fact that previously your had spoken those words only to me and your immediate family.

I learned a ton once I joined this forum and by the definitions I’ve seen here, you had an EA with ex-GF. It has now been almost 4 years of on again off again conversations with her and you feel this is not only OK, but you should be able to continue it. To quote you, “Is this the Coping with Infidelity site?” How you could have participated here for as long as you have yet don’t see this relationship as harmful (she’s just “an especially dear friend”), knowing this causes me immense pain (in fact, I suspect you stay in touch in part to instill pain on me) should be enough to stop communications with her if you truly want this marriage to work. *Do you or do you not?*

For those of you interested, here is just the first two weeks of back and forth on Facebook. They went on to share old pictures, favorite songs and memories and other back and forth before getting together in person for drinks several times, one of which lasted all day (HB was gone for 5 hours) and at the end of which, old-GF suggested fooling around. Exactly the types of conversations with old flames that pose a threat to a marriage:

Harken Banks: Hi. Just wanted to say hi.

Old Girlfriend: And hello back at you. Thought of being in touch for lunch or a drink whilst I was home for nearly 3 weeks during the holidays....but didn't know if it would be appropriate. Nonetheless, it would have been nice to see you and catch up. Hope all things are good with you. I think of you often. 
All the best, GF

Harken Banks: We're adults now, and we ought to be able to make our own decisions on things like lunch. I think of you almost always and almost always hesitate to say hi knowing that I have made enough of a mess of things already.

Old Girlfriend: Oh HB...what do you feel you've made a mess of? I just don't know what the boundaries are with you and wasn't sure it was ok to reach out. Please don't feel that way. You didn't make a mess, you just went with your heart. I was very hurt and surprised at the time since I felt you and I were rebuilding something, but I understood and forgave. They say that everything happens for a reason. I have learned to accept that I may not ever know or like the reason, but I have to accept it.

I have loved you for 25 years. You truly were my ideal in so many ways, HB. You set the bar very high for me and I have not met anyone who has even come close to you. A (old town) friend (he lives in LA now) and his girlfriend came down to visit me this weekend. I was telling her about you last night, and found some pics of you on facebook. I was taken by how young you still look and you are so very handsome (except for the beard, chunky turtleneck sweater and captains hat-hehehe). I can't help but look at pictures of you and get butterflies in my stomach when I see you. So, if we ever did have lunch or that drink, you'd have to be ok with the fact the my crush on you never died.

Have I said enough? Or perhaps too much....?

I'll wait another 10 days for your reply. And if I don't get one, well, I guess I'll just have to accept that. ;-) 

xo GF

Old Girlfriend: By the way, have you seen this?? (Article attached)

Harken Banks: I had not. Fun stuff, thank you. You are now and have always been out of my league. I am flattered, undeservedly fortunate, and baffled that you ever paid me any attention.

Old Girlfriend: Are you just trying to make me feel better? YOU'RE flattered? Out of your league? Please HB. Are you writing me these messages from prison? First of all, I'm not sure I believe in "leagues". Secondly, you were always the most accomplished guy I ever knew, in addition to the dashing good looks. In what way could I possibly be out of your league? And anyway would it (the whole supposed "league thing) really matter anyway if we cared about each other? I think not.
Maybe you should have given us more of a chance 12+ years ago and we wouldn't have to be having this "electronic banter"...instead we'd be just a pillow away, talking about how our days went and what we need to pack for our long weekend at (the ski mountain)...
I could slap myself for not moving home to give it a chance...even if you were seeing someone else. That's one thing I should have never just "accepted". 
By the way, Happy (belated) Valentine's Day. I will never forget the Valentine's Day card you gave me in 1986 (25 yrs ago-WOW!) It had an Iguana with rain boots and an umbrella on the front. The inside read, "Iguana love you, come rain or shine". How sweet. 
My memories will always be sweet.  

Old Girlfriend: HB, I owe you an apology. My previous email was inappropriate and disrespectful. I said too much and I shouldn't have gone there. Ughh.

Harken Banks: No. No apology. Nothing you wrote struck me as inappropriate or disrespectful. Or as too much, though you have certainly heard that from me before. I started this conversation, and I worry about interfering with what is going on in your life, but I am glad we are in touch and I always enjoy hearing from you. We have shared a lot and my own feeling is that with all that we have been through together we cannot overshare.

Old Girlfriend: Ok, then answer my questions! Hahaha!

Harken Banks: Starting where?

Old Girlfriend: And HB, there is nothing going on in my life that can be interfered with. No husband, no children, no boyfriend. California is just about the worst place to be single. There is a large deficiency of quality men, and I am just about over the left coast, suffice it to say. Though it was cold, my 3 weeks back home were very nice. More than ever I am missing family, my old friends and my homeland. I spent a lot of time with the dear (girlfriend’s name) while I was home. Many evenings of drinking (too much) wine and cooking together, talking about babies and life. She and her husband have been trying to get pregnant, in every way, conventional and otherwise. I appreciated being able to be there and supportive of her in a way that her other friends haven't been able to since I can in some ways relate. I always wanted kids, but my timing has always been so ****ty! Too soon, too late...I am not good at hitting targets or timing my shots!

Thank you HB, for making me feel at ease. 
Your turn! 

Old Girlfriend: Start with everything I have written that ends with a question mark!

Harken Banks: I took at least some of those as rhetorical. Unless you want to be more specific, we'll have to work from here forward. (GF’s name), in case it needs to be said again (and it will, needed or not), by any standard, you are off the charts, stunningly beautiful. Despite that curse, you manage to be exemplary in character and eminently good, considerate, and thoughtful. To a fault. Things that shouldn't need to be said and I'll stop the gushing for now, but it seems you may need a dose of reality on those fronts. For measure, I'll add balanced, sensible, and smart, but I know that you don't need me or anyone else to tell you that. I would guess that many people you run into are not immediately ready for the disconnect between you and the personality they anticipate. Right now it is windy, cold, and icy back East. SoCal sounds much better in comparison. Try not to be as hard on your would be suitors as you are on yourself.

Old Girlfriend: Smoke and mirrors, but thanks for the flattery! I'll take it!

Old Girlfriend: Tell me how YOU are!! 

Old Girlfriend: And as for all of the above aforementioned compliments, are you drawing this from recent experience (of me) or from years past? I mean, you're right about some of it, and I don't feel arrogant in admitting it. I know I am a good person, considerate and thoughtful. And yes, perhaps at times to a fault. But I'd rather be those things and risk those "faults" than to be any other way. 
And as for my "would-be suitors", I am not so hard on them. At least not any more than they deserve! Ha! Like I said, the bar has been set high....very, very high.

Old Girlfriend: By the way, this is FUN!!!! 

Do those of you on TAM think this is a harmless relationship for him to continue, assuming he wants to stay married as he says he does?


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> Old GF is NOT just one of many old GFs. She was your steady high school girlfriend and then on again off again in college.
> 
> It has now been almost 4 years of on again off again conversations with her and you feel this is not only OK, but you should be able to continue it.
> 
> Do those of you on TAM think this is a harmless relationship for him to continue, assuming he wants to stay married as he says he does?


----------



## warlock07

"If I am going down, I am going to take you down with me"


----------



## AMU

warlock07 said:


> "If I am going down, I am going to take you down with me"


Warlock - that's not my point at all. I just don't see how anyone who participates on this site, my husband included, can think that relationship is OK. I brought it up because he just right now, tonight, said it was a no big deal thing. I think it is anything but. It has, and continues to be, a significant pain point for us.


----------



## G.J.

AMU ...HB

PLEASE STOP

GO AND HAVE A PILLOW FIGHT NOW 

It doesn't matter at this stage, everything was years ago..YEARS AGO (ok We know about recent contact ) 

Your both in a hole and this forum is not doing EITHER of you any good at the minute

You both were getting it a little together the other week from the posts

PLEASE GO HAVE THE PILLOW FIGHT,IM SERIOUS


Then first thing a.m. 
HB call an MC



ADD
Arhh the time T.T.F.N.


----------



## warlock07

The ass kissing was a little too much in the mail....


HB, I think you forgot post a picture of you two in the bed...The more private, the better. I mean, might as well get it done with.....


----------



## oneMOreguy

The old gf seems to leave the door open........but hb just as clearly is not stepping thru it. I suspect most spouses would be uncomfortable with this communication.......but again this is not the cause or center of you guy's problems. You continue to punish yourself and hb for events related to your upbringing.... and hb is reacting in ways that are not helpful. Please do not think this is your failure....but steems from how others acted to you growing up. Stop using what hb does to justify what you do. You both need to own your own piles of cr*p.


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## soccermom2three

If my husband was having that conversation with a former lover, I would find it inappropriate.


----------



## bfree

AMU said:


> Warlock - that's not my point at all. I just don't see how anyone who participates on this site, my husband included, can think that relationship is OK. I brought it up because he just right now, tonight, said it was a no big deal thing. I think it is anything but. It has, and continues to be, a significant pain point for us.


What difference does it make? Whether it is wrong or not will it change? Haven't you seen how this works? Each and every thing you complain about will continue...because you complain. You have enough issues on your own that you need to address without addressing his. Work on yourself and let him be. If things in the marriage get to a point where they're intolerable then end the marriage. This is not that difficult to comprehend is it? You and Harken have played the he said/she said card to death and it hasn't worked. It will never work. If you think that doing the same thing over and over will get you different results then you're insane. Is this all you and Harken have left in this marriage? Is the conflict the only bond you now share? Continue doing what you're doing and this is what you'll continue to get. If you are truly sick on the way things are then change it. Work on you, let him be and let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## turnera

So it's ok for HB to seek out new women online?


----------



## oneMOreguy

soccermom2three said:


> If my husband was having that conversation with a former lover, I would find it inappropriate.


.....but never lose sight of the difference between that conversation and AMUs EA and accompanying severe emotional abuse of HB......no comparison. I think this is just more deflection from acknowledging her actions.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



turnera said:


> So it's ok for HB to seek out new women online?


Who will stop him? You? Me? AMU? HB will do what HB wants to do. If he wants to check out online dating profiles then he will. If he wants to talk to an old girlfriend then he will. If he wants to drink then he will. If it is so bad then why is AMU still there? Answer? She's not ready to change it. When change is too painful people tend not to change. When the pain of the status quo is more painful then people will change. Right now the status quo is less painful for both Harken and AMU so nothing changes. This he said/she said game is just a cover for avoiding change on both their parts. She yells, he drinks. The more she yells the more he drinks. She had an affair so now he talks to an old gf and looks at online dating profiles. She takes over the bedroom and he takes over the kitchen. Yadda, yadda, yadda, ad nauseam, etc. This will continue until one of them has had enough and decides to change the dynamic be it fix their issues or divorce.


----------



## Abc123wife

Wow! I'm not sure what to say. I just spent 2 hours trying to figure out this thread. And it still makes little to no sense. After more than 2 years of this kind of interaction (can you even call this a relationship?), why in the world are the two of you not divorced?

HB, why not divorce if you cannot move forward in reconciling? How do you justify being so hurt by AMU's EA, yet all the while continuing on with an obvious deep EA with your old GF? Why are you on match.com and contacting other women? 

And biggest question, why are you still drinking? What kind of father are you if you drink a bottle of whiskey every 2 days (or is it every day)? You must be drunk most of the time. Do you think that is a good example to your kids? You are showing them how to deal with problems. What lessons are they learning? Have you looked up what becomes of children of alcoholics? Do you think their childhoods are "normal" living with an alcoholic father and two parents in a constant battle? Your house must just be so tense and stressful. How do you think that affects your kids?


----------



## oregonmom

I am going to post a challenge for the both of you.

Name two things that you take ownership of in your life that you'd like to improve and what step you can take this week towards that. Not things to improve the marriage, just things you'd like to improve about yourself. No mentioning the other person, no defensiveness, no pointing fingers. 

You won't hurt my feelings if you don't want to, but it would kind of be nice to see something positive.


----------



## AMU

oregonmom said:


> I am going to post a challenge for the both of you.
> 
> Name two things that you take ownership of in your life that you'd like to improve and what step you can take this week towards that. Not things to improve the marriage, just things you'd like to improve about yourself. No mentioning the other person, no defensiveness, no pointing fingers.
> 
> You won't hurt my feelings if you don't want to, but it would kind of be nice to see something positive.


Wonderful idea|

1) Yelling - make it three days in a row without yelling at anyone in the house.

2) Declutter - take one carload of things to Goodwill


----------



## MattMatt

Alcohol. It's a wonderful friend, but an extremely bad master.

If you let alcohol master you, it will destroy you and everyone you care about.

I was on that route myself, so have some idea of what I am talking about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

I find it out of line that HB insists on maintaining a relationship with this woman. 

I would not tolerate it. 

But then again, I wouldn't tolerate many things about the marriage you two have.


----------



## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> I find it out of line that HB insists on maintaining a relationship with this woman.
> 
> I would not tolerate it.
> 
> But then again, I wouldn't tolerate many things about the marriage you two have.


And AMU should unfriend and cut off contact with all former boyfriends? I have never asked for it and I don't care. What about male work relations with whom she confides about relationship and life (our marriage and problems -yes this is exactly what was happening when the affair broke out, night time chats with her boss, then with this guy, and who knows who else) some of whom no longer work at the company but maintain close friendship? Again, some of those I find a little weird, but nothing I give all that much thought to (except, of course, for the known affair). The categories go on. She's more social than me and has lots of flirty friendships, including with someone she will just have met. The guy who waits on her or fixes her hot chocolate, sits next to her on a plane. Put an end to that too? None of this ever really bothered me.

Before old gf, AMU used to ask about a college girlfriend, and then a law school girl friend and then people I saw since. But I had no communication for a good 10 or 12 years after our relationship began out of respect for AMU's feelings (respect which seemed never to have been reciprocated). In the end, this person is a dear friend from growing up. She is good friends with my sister and they visit each other and have throughout the years. She is good friends with my 30 or 40 closest friends from growing up. People I see every day. Danger zone? Maybe, I don't know. But I was never concerned about what I would do. 

Oh, well. A cautionary tale. Just a few years ago our lives were pretty normal. No affairs, not chatting with other women. No day drinking. No making a soap opera of our lives and family to be held up for ridicule.


----------



## Harken Banks

I should add that for a good long while I was completely shell-shocked and worried about everyone she talked to. The guys who bring the mail and packages, friends of ours (including Caper), car shop, restaurant, airplanes, and especially work travel, which had ratcheted up quite a bit. Just everyone. I had extreme anxiety. That has passed.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> I can only ask. I looked at one point at what this woman wrote about her own relationships and those looked gawdawful. Clipclop, Chaparral, tell us about your marriages. Turnera too. Come on. Let's have it. Do people even like you. I mean not damaged people who need whatever relationship they think may stick. Real people in the real world. I don't think I'd want so much as to pass any of you in the street. I think you are simplistic jerks.


Wow... that's probably the meanest thing I've ever read on TAM. Defensive, aggressive, hurtful, and deflecting. Boy, howdy!

(uh, oh... now he's going to look up my posts and ask if anybody likes me!)


----------



## Gabriel

Harken, I have certain rules and principles I stand by as a married man (and expect this from my wife, after learning my lesson about her EA). 

1) No one-on-one alone time with an opposite-sex friend. Hanging together in groups is okay, or as couples. Not one-on-one. 

2) No opposite-sex friendships where there is sexual attraction, either direction.

3) Occasional communication with an ex is fine, but only if completely disclosed to your spouse. This does not include one-on-one in person meetings. See #1.

I believe hard in these three things. I understand other couples are more lenient on one or more of these. It is my opinion that those couple are playing with fire. Not picking on you, particularly, Harken. These rules should apply to you and AMU equally.

My story is probably familiar to enough people here to understand why I think these principles are of extreme importance.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> Wow... that's probably the meanest thing I've ever read on TAM. Defensive, aggressive, hurtful, and deflecting. Boy, howdy!
> 
> (uh, oh... now he's going to look up my posts and ask if anybody likes me!)


At least one of them started a thread to garner support for her view that her husband was emotionally or intellectually stunted or psychopathic in lacking capacity for empathy. I hope she felt better about herself after launching that thought experiment. I glanced around at some others. I felt that she and some others liked to take pot shots and moral opprobrium always delivers a cheap and easy feel good about yourself thrill. I supported what I wrote at the time. You can look for that too.


----------



## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> Harken, I have certain rules and principles I stand by as a married man (and expect this from my wife, after learning my lesson about her EA).
> 
> 1) No one-on-one alone time with an opposite-sex friend. Hanging together in groups is okay, or as couples. Not one-on-one.
> 
> 2) No opposite-sex friendships where there is sexual attraction, either direction.
> 
> 3) Occasional communication with an ex is fine, but only if completely disclosed to your spouse. This does not include one-on-one in person meetings. See #1.
> 
> I believe hard in these three things. I understand other couples are more lenient on one or more of these. It is my opinion that those couple are playing with fire. Not picking on you, particularly, Harken. These rules should apply to you and AMU equally.
> 
> My story is probably familiar to enough people here to understand why I think these principles are of extreme importance.


Well, if they work. Wouldn't work for AMU and I wouldn't ask it.


----------



## Harken Banks

Surprisemyself, do us the favor of revisiting what I have written about throwing stones from the safety of the crowd. It's cowardly and hypocritical and dishonest. And easy and safe, which is why cowards take to it. Oh, and apparently Turnera never showed anger to her sole, doted daughter.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

vellocet said:


> I concur. Very well said. I do believe you care about Harken and this was the way to convey that.
> 
> Harken, we are with you man. Please get help. What your wife did to you is not worth ruining your health and life over. Your wife's actions should not have this kind of control over you. Take control of your life and live it to the fullest my man. If this means divorcing your wife and moving on to greener pastures, so be it. If it means reconciling and making the best of it, so be it. But please don't let her actions control you like this.


I've read most of this thread and cannot find the following:

How often and how much HB drank:

Before they were married
After they were married but before the affair
Since the affair

Until we hear this, let's stop making statements like, "what your wife did to you is not worth ruining your life over."

My strong suspicion is that HB has been a heavy drinker for a long, long time. Let's not put blame where it's not due. Now, the affair was wrong and I am in no way condoning it. But this "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning is just feeding the beast.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> Surprisemyself, do us the favor of revisiting what I have written about throwing stones from the safety of the crowd. It's cowardly and hypocritical and dishonest. And easy and safe, which is why cowards take to it. Oh, and apparently Turnera never showed anger to her sole, doted daughter.


HB - I've had many many stones thrown at me from the safety of the crowd. And deservedly so. This is TAM, after all.... Why would you expect otherwise?


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> I've read most of this thread and cannot find the following:
> 
> How often and how much HB drank:
> 
> Before they were married
> After they were married but before the affair
> Since the affair
> 
> Until we hear this, let's stop making statements like, "what your wife did to you is not worth ruining your life over."
> 
> My strong suspicion is that HB has been a heavy drinker for a long, long time. Let's not put blame where it's not due. Now, the affair was wrong and I am in no way condoning it. But this "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning is just feeding the beast.


My god, woman. This is discussed ad infinitum here.


----------



## vellocet

AMU said:


> No, I'm not lying to paint HB in a bad light. I was home with the girls while he went running. HB and I both worked today, although the girls were home due to a day off for conference. HB walked in the door and went into the kitchen where the girls were making lists for Santa. I heard the girls running around and HB yelling at them to cut it out. I then heard three very loud booms, which turned out to be him throwing his stacks of papers and binders from the kitchen counter onto the floor, followed by him yelling loud enough that I heard the words from upstairs "Enough - just leave me alone!" And our 8 year came up the stairs and asked me how to spell "utensil" because dad told her he wouldn't.



If he was yelling because, as he said, the bickering and whatnot, I've been there.

But this is what you said:



> HB just returned from a run and I heard him yelling at the girls (who are home from school for conferences/Veterans Day). They asked him how to spell a word and he yelled at them to leave him alone.



So you are saying he yelled at them to leave him alone over a spelled word. 

HB? Is this correct?


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> HB - I've had many many stones thrown at me from the safety of the crowd. And deservedly so. This is TAM, after all.... Why would you expect otherwise?


When I point out that someone is wrong or ridiculous I would like if they did not weasel around it.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> Surprisemyself, do us the favor of revisiting what I have written about throwing stones from the safety of the crowd. It's cowardly and hypocritical and dishonest. And easy and safe, which is why cowards take to it. Oh, and apparently Turnera never showed anger to her sole, doted daughter.


And how, prey tell, did you determine that my daughter was doted upon? 

fwiw, I was the disciplinarian who tried to undo my H's largesse, until he realized I was right and he stopped doing it. She's been paying her own way since she was 12.


----------



## Abc123wife

Harken Banks said:


> Well, if they work. Wouldn't work for AMU and I wouldn't ask it.



You completely skipped my previous post that asked you some questions, but again WHY are you still married? You refuse to change anything about yourself and refuse to ask for the above changes in your wife. So what is left to do? Why keep torturing each other? Is this all a game to you?


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> If he was yelling because, as he said, the bickering and whatnot, I've been there.
> 
> But this is what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying he yelled at them to leave him alone over a spelled word.
> 
> HB? Is this correct?


I'm not sure if this is a re-post. I was with the girls throughout the morning into the afternoon and bunches of activities they were engaged in. Legos were most of it. Around my feet as I tried to play lawyer and that was all good. Then it came to making cards, which involved spelling. Like AMU, I was working, but not from the sanctity and insulation of the bedroom. We spelled words to make the cards. We spelled and respelled verbally. I checked the work and a mistake had been made. Then broke out the fight about whose erasers and whose pencils and I said enough. At that point I was also pushing the timing for getting to a meeting in town, shower, shave, put on nice clothes and shoes, even. My time had run out. Had to go and scrambled through a shower and shave. I do not recall that I told our 8 year old that I would not help her spell a word. I remember getting fed up with the bickering and having to get ready to leave for the office. There was other stuff going on too and I was late. No one cried. No one got hit by an adult. If I yelled, it was to break up the fight they were having over the eraser and pencils and it was in the nature of "Stop!"


----------



## vellocet

SurpriseMyself said:


> I've read most of this thread and cannot find the following:
> 
> How often and how much HB drank:
> 
> Before they were married
> After they were married but before the affair
> Since the affair
> 
> Until we hear this, let's stop making statements like, "what your wife did to you is not worth ruining your life over."
> 
> My strong suspicion is that HB has been a heavy drinker for a long, long time. Let's not put blame where it's not due. Now, the affair was wrong and I am in no way condoning it. But this "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning is just feeding the beast.


Fair enough. Either way, however, he does need to get help, and having a cheating wife sure doesn't help.


----------



## vellocet

Harken Banks said:


> We spelled words to make the cards. We spelled and respelled verbally. I checked the work and a mistake had been made. Then broke out the fight about whose erasers and whose pencils and I said enough.


Ok, so that's what I figured. You didn't yell at them for asking to spell a word, you yelled at them for fighting.

I've been there and have had to yell to break up a fight, and with 2 boys, it can start getting physical and like you said, ENOUGH.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> My god, woman. This is discussed ad infinitum here.


By others, yes. By you, not that I've found. Please quote that post so I can stand corrected. Otherwise...

Let's just start with now: Is a bottle of wine a night normal for you right now? Two? What time of day do you start drinking? Do you wonder how much alcohol you have left at home? Do you find yourself thinking about when you'll be able to get your next drink?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> And how, prey tell, did you determine that my daughter was doted upon?
> 
> fwiw, I was the disciplinarian who tried to undo my H's largesse, until he realized I was right and he stopped doing it. She's been paying her own way since she was 12.


And you never got angy? I remember when we had one. It was pretty easy. I don't remember getting angry. Two, still no anger. Try a car with 4 sisters all arguing and fighting and hitting what they can reach. Anyone out there with 4 kids who will claim never to having shown anger? 3? 2? 1? Just Turnera, I guess.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> And how, prey tell, did you determine that my daughter was doted upon?
> 
> fwiw, I was the disciplinarian who tried to undo my H's largesse, until he realized I was right and he stopped doing it. She's been paying her own way since she was 12.


And you never got angry? I remember when we had one. It was pretty easy. I don't remember getting angry. Two, still no anger. Try a car with 4 sisters all arguing and fighting and hitting and kicking what they can reach and throwing at what they can't. Anyone out there with 4 kids who will claim never to having shown anger? 3? 2? 1? Just Turnera, I guess.


----------



## Abc123wife

Harken Banks said:


> I can only ask. I looked at one point at what this woman wrote about her own relationships and those looked gawdawful. Clipclop, Chaparral, tell us about your marriages. Turnera too. Come on. Let's have it. Do people even like you. I mean not damaged people who need whatever relationship they think may stick. Real people in the real world. I don't think I'd want so much as to pass any of you in the street. I think you are simplistic jerks.


OMG! What does it take to get banned here?! How is this acceptable on this site?


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> If I yelled, it was to break up the fight they were having over the eraser and pencils and it was in the nature of "Stop!"


So you did _not _say "leave me alone," which is what AMU said you said. Which would be quite different from "stop fighting" or "enough." At least to a child.


----------



## Harken Banks

Abc123wife said:


> OMG! What does it take to get banned here?! How is this acceptable on this site?


Miserable.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> So you did _not _say "leave me alone," which is what AMU said you said. Which would be quite different from "stop fighting" or "enough." At least to a child.


Lady, if I have to get into the shower, I have to get into the shower. I'm not sure those are my words.


----------



## Harken Banks

Like to point everyone to post #711. Chime in. We'll do an informal study.


----------



## vellocet

Abc123wife said:


> OMG! What does it take to get banned here?! How is this acceptable on this site?


While I agree he needs to be better than this, the man has taken about as much bullsh*t in this thread as anyone could take.

Like I said Harken, I think you need to distance yourself from this thread. Its not doing you any good with the demonization you are getting. And it looks like even your yelling at the kids was not an accurate summation.

Harken, I advise you leave the thread before the mob gets you. And yes, please try to get some help, go to AA.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Abc123wife said:


> OMG! What does it take to get banned here?! How is this acceptable on this site?


Report it if you want. As I said in my post about it, it's probably the meanest thing I've ever read on TAM, but not sure it's a bannable offense. If he'd said that on any other thread other than one about him and his wife, I'm pretty sure it would get reported. As it stands, he's just extremely defensive and cowardly himself. Ironic, ain't it!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

vellocet said:


> While I agree he needs to be better than this, the man has taken about as much bullsh*t in this thread as anyone could take.


You get what you give.


----------



## turnera

I'm just trying to figure out who's telling the truth. They're both so busy painting themselves as a saint and the other as a sinner, it's hard to weed through the comments to see what's really happening.


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> So you did _not _say "leave me alone," which is what AMU said you said. Which would be quite different from "stop fighting" or "enough." At least to a child.


First off, the first post from AMU where she highlighted his comments to the kids, she tried to say that he yelled at them for simply asking to spell a word. 

Secondly, kids start fighting, you tell them enough, stop it, and it goes on and on and on. 

And you really want to harp on him about the "leave me alone" comment? Really? I think you are just looking for things to ***** at him for.

And I doubt you'll have anything to say about AMU's mischaracterization of him telling him to leave him alone just because they asked him to spell a word.

Seems like a lot of character assassination going on in this thread, by you, others, and his own wife.

Which is why I'll repeat, Harken, distance yourself from this thread. The mob is out full force.


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> While I agree he needs to be better than this, the man has taken about as much bullsh*t in this thread as anyone could take.
> 
> Like I said Harken, I think you need to distance yourself from this thread. Its not doing you any good with the demonization you are getting. And it looks like even your yelling at the kids was not an accurate summation.
> 
> Harken, I advise you leave the thread before the mob gets you. And yes, please try to get some help, go to AA.


We'll see. People ask me questions, I answer. Say things that are wrong or silly, I correct them. Point out where I am a complete ass, I listen and come back. Usually after hearing from myself that that person was right, you were an ass. Just to pick on the most recent example of my complete lack of understanding of how insipid some of the feed to this place is, I'd like parents and children of parents to respond to my question about Turnera's claim that she never showed to her only child daughter anger. Is that for real? I suppose you may be able to maintain that kind of fiction in the bubble of an only child home. I don't know.


----------



## Harken Banks

Remember it was only yesterday I was defending myself against the offense of the kitchen table.


----------



## vellocet

No, my advice is just remove yourself from this thread, seek to better yourself.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> We'll see. People ask me questions, I answer. Say things that are wrong or silly, I correct them. Point out where I am a complete ass, I listen and come back. Usually after hearing from myself that that person was right, you were an ass. Just to pick on the most recent example of my complete lack of understanding of how insipid some of the feed to this place is, I'd like parents and children of parents to respond to my question about Turnera's claim that she never showed to her only child daughter anger. Is that for real? I suppose you may be able to maintain that kind of fiction in the bubble of an only child home. I don't know.


I'll answer your question: yes, of course my kids have seen me angry at them. I'm no saint. I'm trying to do better but sometimes in the moment I'm just not up to the challenge.

Now, please answer my questions: How often and how much do you drink now? And what time of day do you start?


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'll answer your question: yes, of course my kids have seen me angry at them. I'm no saint. I'm trying to do better but sometimes in the moment I'm just not up to the challenge.
> 
> Now, please answer my questions: How often and how much do you drink now? And what time of day do you start?


Respond to Turnera. I owe you nothing and I do not think there is anything you can offer me.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> Respond to Turnera.


I'm sure Turnera will see my post.

Now, I responded to your question. Now respond to mine.


----------



## Abc123wife

SurpriseMyself said:


> Report it if you want. As I said in my post about it, it's probably the meanest thing I've ever read on TAM, but not sure it's a bannable offense. If he'd said that on any other thread other than one about him and his wife, I'm pretty sure it would get reported. As it stands, he's just extremely defensive and cowardly himself. Ironic, ain't it!


Whether the discussion is about a particular person or his marriage, that does not allows that person to post the way he is. 

And I do not see all the bullsh*t someone is saying that he has had to endure on this thread. The people he has an issue with are asking him direct questions about his possible (most definite) addictive behavior, his EA with his old girlfriend, and his setting up of a profile/activity on match.com. He seems to only want to attack his wife for her poor choices and for everyone to ignore the equally poor choices he has made and continues to make.


----------



## turnera

AMU said:


> Wonderful idea|
> 
> 1) Yelling - make it three days in a row without yelling at anyone in the house.
> 
> 2) Declutter - take one carload of things to Goodwill


How's this going, AMU? Assuming you're working from home...


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> Respond to Turnera. I owe you nothing and I do not think there is anything you can offer me.


I"m not asking for me; I'm asking so that the TAMers who are posting to this thread have an idea of what the real issues are. We've revealed that AMU is painting situations with her own brush. So we have that truth. What is your truth about your drinking? Can't really expect us to help you if we don't know what's really going on. And if you were honest instead of defensive, I suspect you wouldn't get so much ire and stones from the crowd.


----------



## Abc123wife

Harken Banks said:


> And you never got angy? I remember when we had one. It was pretty easy. I don't remember getting angry. Two, still no anger. Try a car with 4 sisters all arguing and fighting and hitting what they can reach. Anyone out there with 4 kids who will claim never to having shown anger? 3? 2? 1? Just Turnera, I guess.


Yes, I have 4 children that were born in a 7.5 year time-frame. All I can say is read the book "1 2 3 Magic." 1-2-3 Magic: Effective Discipline for Children 2–12: Thomas W. Phelan: 9781889140438: Amazon.com: Books

If you and your wife get on board with it and stick to it, it works wonders! It will eliminate a lot of the screaming and yelling at the kids once they realize you mean business at the count of 1. I still occasionally find my self giving a warning and starting the count with my teenagers! BTW, if you think young ones are difficult, brace yourself for when they are all teenagers.


----------



## Harken Banks

This is so dumb, I don't even know how to express it. For a couple of days now we have been carrying on about what happened when I left for some meetings I didn't schedule or want in the first place. Now, I could have woken up, grabbed my stuff, gone to the gym across from my office, shaved and showered joking with the guys, gone to my office, worked from there, gone to my meetings, come home, dinner's ready, peck on the cheek, Daddy's going to smoke his cigar in the study with a snifter of brandy. But instead, daddy is playing legos with the girls. Now, had we had the daddy up and bolts for the office and then maybe the country club he hasn't seen in months (AMU is more regular than the regulars), we'd have the story of how daddy is emotionally abusive and absent.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm sure Turnera will see my post.
> 
> Now, I responded to your question. Now respond to mine.


It's all here.


----------



## Ikaika

My simple advice, AMU and HB go silent from TAM. Take this time to work on your own issues. And, we all have issues we can work on to better ourselves. I don't believe you require anymore advice (as the title of the thread would suggest), from folks here. 

Also, find a fresh mediating voice to help you work through either surviving your marriage or coming to an amicable end. 

Just my humble advice and opinion. 

I wish you both the best as well as your children. 

Malama pono


----------



## turnera

vellocet said:


> First off, the first post from AMU where she highlighted his comments to the kids, she tried to say that he yelled at them for simply asking to spell a word.


Just keeping it real.


> I then heard three very loud booms, which turned out to be him throwing his stacks of papers and binders from the kitchen counter onto the floor, followed by him yelling loud enough that I heard the words from upstairs "Enough - just leave me alone!" And our 8 year came up the stairs and asked me how to spell "utensil" because dad told her he wouldn't.


Aside from trying to figure out who was telling the truth, I was just trying to point out that, if what AMU said was true, the dysfunction in the house has escalated such that the frustrated parents are telling the kids that they're a bother to them, and to be careful that they don't start believing it. T/J ending.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Just keeping it real.
> 
> 
> Aside from trying to figure out who was telling the truth, I was just trying to point out that, if what AMU said was true, the dysfunction in the house has escalated such that the frustrated parents are telling the kids that they're a bother to them, and to be careful that they don't start believing it. T/J ending.


I suppose we all see through and live in our own prisms and cannot escape them, as especially well demonstrated here.


----------



## turnera

Ah yes, let's make it about me.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Ah yes, let's make it about me.


OK, let's make it about me. My girls were picking petty and selfish fights with each other and I said stop. Expressed that I was upset with it. Angry at the bickering and smallmindedness that is part of having siblings but rightly should be brought to sharp closure by a parent when possible. Whaddayagot?

Also, I am still interested in the survey of parents who have never shown anger to their children. But volunteer for statistical purposes if you have been lobotomized.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> It's all here.


I just did an advanced search for all posts by you that included the word "drink." Not one had any indication of how much you drink. It's not "all here." My guess is that you don't want to put that out for the world to see because you know that the truth you get back will hit too close to home.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> I just did an advanced search for all posts by you that included the word "drink." Not one had any indication of how much you drink. It's not "all here." My guess is that you don't want to put that out for the world to see because you know that the truth you get back will hit too close to home.


can anyone here help this poor woman?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> can anyone here help this poor woman?


I know one person who can....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Harken, quit wasting your time. You are being painted as some sort of a monster and as of late, over the statement "leave me alone". No matter what you say, you are going to be demonized in this thread. 

Again, and this is the last time I'll say this. Perhaps get in IC and distance yourself from this thread. You are only fueling the fire of those that want to take the focus away from AMU.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> I know one person who can....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm going to ask the crowd to join in the chorus, if that's ok. Voice is shot.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

vellocet said:


> Harken, quit wasting your time. You are being painted as some sort of a monster and as of late, over the statement "leave me alone". No matter what you say, you are going to be demonized in this thread.
> 
> Again, and this is the last time I'll say this. Perhaps get in IC and distance yourself from this thread. You are only fueling the fire of those that want to take the focus away from AMU.


His drinking is present tense. Her infidelity is past tense. She isn't cheating now, but he is drinking still. Can't fix what you won't acknowledge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> I'm going to ask the crowd to join in the chorus, if that's ok. Voice is shot.


You can answer the question in 30 seconds. Why aren't you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

SM, he has acknowledged it. We berated him for weeks about it, and he even cut back. I think that's good progress. 'nuff said, ok?


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> His drinking is present tense. Her infidelity is past tense. She isn't cheating now, but he is drinking still. Can't fix what you won't acknowledge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that is an interesting statement. I like it. I feel like Mr. Hand. I want to put it on the board for everyone to see.


----------



## vellocet

SurpriseMyself said:


> His drinking is present tense. Her infidelity is past tense. She isn't cheating now, but he is drinking still. Can't fix what you won't acknowledge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't care that her cheating is past tense. She is demonizing him now and exaggerating, or lying, about certain things, such as his interaction with his kids.

If his drinking is so bad and she chooses to try to make him look like a monster, then why doesn't she take the kids and divorce him? Make him pay child support and turn him into an every other weekend father.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

turnera said:


> SM, he has acknowledged it. We berated him for weeks about it, and he even cut back. I think that's good progress. 'nuff said, ok?


OK. Still would love to see it, but I'm done searching.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

vellocet said:


> I don't care that her cheating is past tense. She is demonizing him now and exaggerating, or lying, about certain things, such as his interaction with his kids.
> 
> If his drinking is so bad and she chooses to try to make him look like a monster, then why doesn't she take the kids and divorce him? Make him pay child support and turn him into an every other weekend father.


AMU would need to answer that one, but I will say that people often chose to stay with alcoholics despite every reason to leave.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> AMU would need to answer that one, but I will say that people often chose to stay with alcoholics despite every reason to leave.


She knows the way out and that I will pay for it. She's got lawyers. Right. You are hip to that part? At least read the threads. Sheesh.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Harken Banks said:


> She knows the way out and that I will pay for it. She's got lawyers. Right. You are hip to that part? At least read the threads. Sheesh.


I don't have time to read 500+ threads here. I've read plenty, including the one where you admitted to deleting your posts about how much you drink. Hello pot, my name's kettle.


----------



## Abc123wife

Harken Banks said:


> can anyone here help this poor woman?


Here is what AMU posted concerning his drinking and recent cut back due to liver issues:

"He did get bloodwork and that physical and the results were scary – his liver enzymes were five times the recommended amount and his ASL number was three times his ALT number, which is suggestive of alcoholic liver disease. His liver was also enlarged to the touch. He also admitted to the doctor how much he was drinking (actually he underreported then and said it was a 1.75 liter bottle every 3 days and when he went for his recheck on 10/27, he admitted it was every 2 days or less). She told him that it would not be a happy ending if he didn’t get those numbers back down.

HB said he didn’t want to go through detox so the doctor asked him to cut his consumption in half and come back for a recheck in 4 weeks. HB did even better than that – so much better that I was truly worried about his withdrawal symptoms and asked him to discuss with the doctor. He went from 20+ drinks a day to an average of 4-8, measuring his servings in a measuring cup, and recording each drink in a journal. On most days, he didn’t start drinking until 4 or 5, instead of being the first thing he did in the morning. At night, he was tossing and turning and having horrible night sweats – so bad that he soaked completely through our comforter cover and the heavy down comforter and his pillow soaked all the way through the pillow to the bed and he definitely wasn’t sleeping well. "

She then posted me that after better results came back after his cutback, he went back up in drinking heavily again.

"On Oct 24th, HB completed his follow up blood test, after rocking the month long alcohol cut-back. He then went to his office afterward and starting drinking. I called mid-day to talk to him and his secretary had to page him twice – when he answered he sounded like he just awoke. By the time he got home that night (which happened to be our oldest’s 13th birthday), he was drunk and slurring his words."

"He went to his follow up appt on Monday to see how things were. He didn’t call and when he came in the door that night I immediately asked how it went. No response – he just handed me two papers and walked away with a smirk. I was thrilled to see that not only had his numbers gone down, but they were BOTH in the normal range! I told him that was wonderful and he just smiled and said the doctor had never seen anything like it. I asked if he had told her about the non-stop drinking throughout the weekend and he said he hadn’t, but that he had shared that he had underreported his drinking when he was there initially and that it was more like a liter a day before. Since then, the heavy drinking has continued. Maybe not as much as in the past, but a lot – certainly a lot more than the “test month.” "

So digging through all that to find he drinks about 1 liter a day of hard liquor.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> I don't have time to read 500+ threads here. I've read plenty, including the one where you admitted to deleting your posts about how much you drink. Hello pot, my name's kettle.


Are we back to this again? Caper asked me to and I announced to everyone in the forum days in advance that I would probably take it down to protect the friendships between our kids and families. Go much further and I will call you a name that will get me banned.


----------



## vellocet

SurpriseMyself said:


> AMU would need to answer that one, but I will say that people often chose to stay with alcoholics despite every reason to leave.


Same with cheaters despite every reason to leave.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Abc123wife said:


> Here is what AMU posted concerning his drinking and recent cut back due to liver issues:
> 
> "He did get bloodwork and that physical and the results were scary – his liver enzymes were five times the recommended amount and his ASL number was three times his ALT number, which is suggestive of alcoholic liver disease. His liver was also enlarged to the touch. He also admitted to the doctor how much he was drinking (actually he underreported then and said it was a 1.75 liter bottle every 3 days and when he went for his recheck on 10/27, he admitted it was every 2 days or less). She told him that it would not be a happy ending if he didn’t get those numbers back down.
> 
> HB said he didn’t want to go through detox so the doctor asked him to cut his consumption in half and come back for a recheck in 4 weeks. HB did even better than that – so much better that I was truly worried about his withdrawal symptoms and asked him to discuss with the doctor. He went from 20+ drinks a day to an average of 4-8, measuring his servings in a measuring cup, and recording each drink in a journal. On most days, he didn’t start drinking until 4 or 5, instead of being the first thing he did in the morning. At night, he was tossing and turning and having horrible night sweats – so bad that he soaked completely through our comforter cover and the heavy down comforter and his pillow soaked all the way through the pillow to the bed and he definitely wasn’t sleeping well. "
> 
> She then posted me that after better results came back after his cutback, he went back up in drinking heavily again.
> 
> "On Oct 24th, HB completed his follow up blood test, after rocking the month long alcohol cut-back. He then went to his office afterward and starting drinking. I called mid-day to talk to him and his secretary had to page him twice – when he answered he sounded like he just awoke. By the time he got home that night (which happened to be our oldest’s 13th birthday), he was drunk and slurring his words."
> 
> "He went to his follow up appt on Monday to see how things were. He didn’t call and when he came in the door that night I immediately asked how it went. No response – he just handed me two papers and walked away with a smirk. I was thrilled to see that not only had his numbers gone down, but they were BOTH in the normal range! I told him that was wonderful and he just smiled and said the doctor had never seen anything like it. I asked if he had told her about the non-stop drinking throughout the weekend and he said he hadn’t, but that he had shared that he had underreported his drinking when he was there initially and that it was more like a liter a day before. Since then, the heavy drinking has continued. Maybe not as much as in the past, but a lot – certainly a lot more than the “test month.” "
> 
> So digging through all that to find he drinks about 1 liter a day of hard liquor.


Thanks. I was looking for posts by him, which is why I missed it. 

1 liter is the equivalent of about 20 generous shots a day. 

HB - I'm sorry to read this, and I do encourage you to get help.


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> Same with cheaters despite every reason to leave.


There are reasons to leave, there are reasons to stay. I would probably be having a lot more fun and adventure now if I said chuck it. Which now, looking back and acknowledging the wisdom of everyone who had a view, I would have advised myself to do.


----------



## Harken Banks

SurpriseMyself said:


> Thanks. I was looking for posts by him, which is why I missed it.
> 
> 1 liter is the equivalent of about 20 generous shots a day.
> 
> HB - I'm sorry to read this, and I do encourage you to get help.


This is not the answer to your question. Drinking was not a health risk or detriment to anything else until after the affair. And all the sh*t that followed. Which is why some of my frustration with the backwardness of the argument and discussion. Can't you people read?


----------



## Harken Banks

However, it was well known among those who cared to inquire that HB liked drink and had some other bad habits long preceding his ride through college. It was a good ride. Good young girls like AMU inquired. Some ventured. HB always passive and sometimes receptive. I was sharing a post-golf drink with friends at a reunion the night AMU and I first had a conversation and that happened because she worked the angles that way. AMU was drinking too and I thought that's OK but she ended up getting all maudlin and lugubrious and I talked to her through the tears and saw her back to her room. Then what I thought I recognized as out of character forwardness that would lead to the regrettable and I said goodnight. I was living in Boston at the time and working 70 or 80 hours a week as a lawyer in a big shop and life was good. Wake up around 6, run to the gym, office by 8, out to meet friends by 8 or 9 or 10 most nights, then bars and around the town, fall into bed and start it again the next morning. Clockwork. AMU knew it and it was what she wanted.


----------



## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Well, if they work. Wouldn't work for AMU and I wouldn't ask it.


That's a cop out.

Why wouldn't they work?

I think you wouldn't ask this of AMU because you don't want to abide by them yourself.


----------



## Gabriel

vellocet said:


> First off, the first post from AMU where she highlighted his comments to the kids, she tried to say that he yelled at them for simply asking to spell a word.
> 
> Secondly, kids start fighting, you tell them enough, stop it, and it goes on and on and on.
> 
> And you really want to harp on him about the "leave me alone" comment? Really? I think you are just looking for things to ***** at him for.
> 
> And I doubt you'll have anything to say about AMU's mischaracterization of him telling him to leave him alone just because they asked him to spell a word.
> 
> Seems like a lot of character assassination going on in this thread, by you, others, and his own wife.
> 
> Which is why I'll repeat, Harken, distance yourself from this thread. The mob is out full force.


I respectfully and vehemently disagree that the "mob is out in full force". You are way too new to this thread/relationship to make that kind of statement.

Many of us have been following this and trying to advise Harken for 2-3 YEARS. We have been on his side many times throughout this process. 

Truth is, Harken has done his share of damage to this marriage. AMU has also. They both post and we respond and advise both of them.


----------



## Harken Banks

Boys?


----------



## Gabriel

SurpriseMyself said:


> OK. Still would love to see it, but I'm done searching.


It was in another thread that Harken deleted. There is no more point beating him up about alcohol. He has cut back. He has heard the warnings. Time to focus on other stuff.

This is what happens when people join the party late.


----------



## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Boys?


The rules are for her too, not just you, brother. 

She actually "liked" my post outlining them. Maybe enforcing them is a good idea?


----------



## Idyit

I don't post a whole lot but have followed HB and AMU since his first post. The state of this thread and the direction it continues to go is like checking the air in the tires when you just hit a telephone pole.

Harken came here for advice/input on his wifes affair while being maddeningly vague and sparse with specifics. Eventually we get the picture and advice was given for the recovery that he desired. 

From everything that I've learned on TAM this R was a train wreck. Why is all the focus on the symptoms and not getting both parties to address the issue brought here, CWI?

~ Passio


----------



## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> The rules are for her too, not just you, brother.
> 
> She actually "liked" my post outlining them. Maybe enforcing them is a good idea?


Appreciated. I may not be rules inclined. Probably I am not. Yeah, pretty much if I am given a rule I am going to break it just to give it back broken. AMU, though. Thank you, Gabriel, brother. Sincerely.


----------



## Gabriel

Idyit said:


> I don't post a whole lot but have followed HB and AMU since his first post. The state of this thread and the direction it continues to go is like checking the air in the tires when you just hit a telephone pole.
> 
> Harken came here for advice/input on his wifes affair while being maddeningly vague and sparse with specifics. Eventually we get the picture and advice was given for the recovery that he desired.
> 
> From everything that I've learned on TAM this R was a train wreck. Why is all the focus on the symptoms and not getting both parties to address the issue brought here, CWI?
> 
> ~ Passio


I generally agree. Too much time focused on minutiae. Harken hasn't been able to recover from what happened with AMU's affair. Bottom line. So how can he do this?

I don't know. Only Harken does.


----------



## Idyit

Gabriel said:


> I generally agree. Too much time focused on minutiae. *Harken hasn't been able to recover from what happened with AMU's affair.* Bottom line. So how can he do this?
> 
> I don't know. Only Harken does.


Yup!


----------



## Abc123wife

HB and AMU, how about a different approach since what you are both doing is not working? Can you both answer these questions honestly?

1. Is there anything good about your marriage now? 

2. Can you say a couple positive things about your spouse?

3. Is there anything joyful in your home lately between the two of you (not involving children)?

4. Do you like your spouse - not love, but like as in like to be around her/him, like conversing, like doing things together without the kids?


----------



## Harken Banks

Idyit said:


> Yup!


The marriage has not recovered. Maybe at one time what the marriage and Harken needed were the same. Maybe they stopped being the same and one would recover and the other would not. We'll see.


----------



## oregonmom

AMU said:


> Wonderful idea|
> 
> 1) Yelling - make it three days in a row without yelling at anyone in the house.
> 
> 2) Declutter - take one carload of things to Goodwill


Thanks for answering AMU.

2 is perfect. 1 is good, but that is more of a goal than a step to get you there. I know when I feel angry and I want to yell it feels like super hot blood rising up thru my whole body. Do you feel anything physically before you yell? Recognizing if you do is a good step, and making a plan for what you can do instead of yelling when you feel that coming on. I will count to ten, I will leave the room and go scream into a pillow, something like that. You don't need to answer here, just something to think about.


----------



## stunned

I'm really surprised at how everyone here has focused so hard on Harken's drinking, and completely ignored his activity with other women. If AMU started another thread with a different username and listed the things Harken has done with other women - Match.com, lunch dates with other women, crazy ex Gf who seems to be saving herself for him, etc... - pretty much everyone here would be yelling "Of course he's cheating" , "see a lawyer asap!", "kick him out", "run for the hills!", etc, etc. If she then admitted her own affair, we'd all be saying "maybe you two weren't meant for marriage", "well your affair was over years ago, that doesn't give him the right to do this in front of your face now!"... We'd be telling AMU to stand up for herself and not tolerate this. But yet we're all hung up on the drinking aspect. 
I can understand the drinking. It's been tough for Harken, and quitting drinking isn't easy. But I don't think he was drunk all the time when contacting other women, not that it's an excuse anyway. I know what AMU did was horrible and in some cases unforgivable. But he's headed down that same path, if he hasn't gotten there already. If indeed this weren't AMU, but some other poster, no one here would believe that his "meetings" with these other women were not physical. So why are we believing it now?


----------



## oregonmom

Harken Banks said:


> And you never got angry? I remember when we had one. It was pretty easy. I don't remember getting angry. Two, still no anger. Try a car with 4 sisters all arguing and fighting and hitting and kicking what they can reach and throwing at what they can't. Anyone out there with 4 kids who will claim never to having shown anger? 3? 2? 1? Just Turnera, I guess.


I don't have four kids so idk if my experience means anything to you. But I definitely have yelled at my son. I yelled at him a lot a few years ago when my H was using, in an A and yelling at me all the time. I was super angry and had no fuse. Except with my H since I was afraid of him.

I still yell at him sometimes. I try not to, I usually only yell at him when he yells at me now. So about a year ago he yelled at me and I yelled back "you don't speak to people like that! There is no yelling!" I bet you can guess what he said - "then why are you doing it to me?" Good point son. How hypocritical of me to yell no more yelling. That made me think of how I'd handle it differently next time. I'm not perfect, but I do pretty well now. And when I do yell at him, I go back to him and apologize for yelling because that is not the way we should handle our conflicts. My apologizing does not take away his consequences for his behavior, I just own my own mistake. That's how I handle it.


----------



## Harken Banks

stunned said:


> I'm really surprised at how everyone here has focused so hard on Harken's drinking, and completely ignored his activity with other women. If AMU started another thread with a different username and listed the things Harken has done with other women - Match.com, lunch dates with other women, crazy ex Gf who seems to be saving herself for him, etc... - pretty much everyone here would be yelling "Of course he's cheating" , "see a lawyer asap!", "kick him out", "run for the hills!", etc, etc. If she then admitted her own affair, we'd all be saying "maybe you two weren't meant for marriage", "well your affair was over years ago, that doesn't give him the right to do this in front of your face now!"... We'd be telling AMU to stand up for herself and not tolerate this. But yet we're all hung up on the drinking aspect.
> I can understand the drinking. It's been tough for Harken, and quitting drinking isn't easy. But I don't think he was drunk all the time when contacting other women, not that it's an excuse anyway. I know what AMU did was horrible and in some cases unforgivable. But he's headed down that same path, if he hasn't gotten there already. If indeed this weren't AMU, but some other poster, no one here would believe that his "meetings" with these other women were not physical. So why are we believing it now?


Damage done. It's a carnival now. I had physical contact with 2 women in the 2 days we were in divorce process. Neither of those was what you would call a date. Someone saying hey let's get a cup of coffee and me saying schedule is tough, but OK.


----------



## AMU

turnera said:


> How's this going, AMU? Assuming you're working from home...


So far, so good. Tough morning with our 8 year old who didn't want to do anything to get ready for school, lots of yelling and screaming from her, including the entire car ride to school when I drove our two youngest to school when they missed the bus as a result of her refusals. The type of situation that brings me great stress and frustration, but I calmly told her I was leaving with her sister and she needed to get in the car.

She recently started sessions with a counselor and I offered a solution suggested by her counselor on Monday, which is counting backwards by 2s from 100 when she is mad or angry. Didn't work. Asked if she wanted to talk to her teacher about her issues and she screamed at me to be quiet. Stopped the car to look at her and say I'm here for you, how can mommy help you get through this. Nothing. Kept driving and ignored her the rest of the way to school, then gave her a big hug before she walked to class. She had calmed down then. Spent an hour volunteering in her classroom this afternoon and she kept coming up to me when I was doing fluency readings with other kiddos and giving me a hug. So happy I didn't lose it and yell at her this morning. 

I can do this. Taking one day at a time.


----------



## vellocet

Harken Banks said:


> Damage done. It's a carnival now. I had physical contact with 2 women in the 2 days we were in divorce process. Neither of those was what you would call a date. Someone saying hey let's get a cup of coffee and me saying schedule is tough, but OK.


Well geez, missed that in all the focus on drinking.

I take it you are no longer in a divorce process? Or are you.

And if not, are you still in contact with any other women?


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> So far, so good. Tough morning with our 8 year old who didn't want to do anything to get ready for school, lots of yelling and screaming from her, including the entire car ride to school when I drove our two youngest to school when they missed the bus as a result of her refusals. The type of situation that brings me great stress and frustration, but I calmly told her I was leaving with her sister and she needed to get in the car.
> 
> She recently started sessions with a counselor and I offered a solution suggested by her counselor on Monday, which is counting backwards by 2s from 100 when she is mad or angry. Didn't work. Asked if she wanted to talk to her teacher about her issues and she screamed at me to be quiet. Stopped the car to look at her and say I'm here for you, how can mommy help you get through this. Nothing. Kept driving and ignored her the rest of the way to school, then gave her a big hug before she walked to class. She had calmed down then. Spent an hour volunteering in her classroom this afternoon and she kept coming up to me when I was doing fluency readings with other kiddos and giving me a hug. So happy I didn't lose it and yell at her this morning.
> 
> I can do this. Taking one day at a time.


Excellent! Good job. Was HB there through any of this? Who found the counselor?


----------



## 2xloser

Catching up/following this thread and overall story, and I had this thought, as I don't post when I no longer feel I have anything worthwhile to contribute or say. So I was going to sort of express that and just post:

"My God, what this has all become. Deplorably sad, really. Nothing to even suggest."

And I was struck by the thought that this is exactly what HB, and probably AMU too, are thinking about their marriage and their lives.

I can only ask why stay, then? Seriously. You won't work on it, won't work together in the small attempts, nor even agree on the issues to be worked on.

It really seems HB wavers with having given up on restoring any real marriage, so I can't figure out why he is there except to be with his kids. Maybe to exact some sort of revenge for AMU's infidelity, but I no longer think that's true. And AMU may still have some faint deep-rooted hope, but cannot find a way to reach him and make it any sort of reality, so is kind of lost in the process. 

Other than being with the girls, I can't figure out what either of you gets from the marriage to make it 'worth it', now.

I'm so sorry for both of you. Perhaps vellocet's right, it is time to get out of here and put that energy into moving forward one way or the other. 

"My God, what this has all become. Deplorably sad, really."


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> Well geez, missed that in all the focus on drinking.
> 
> I take it you are no longer in a divorce process? Or are you.
> 
> And if not, are you still in contact with any other women?


No. But it's in the line of what was discussed before about lawlessness. There is nothing left to respect. Only consequence. That is what you get, CWI.


----------



## vellocet

So what is it you want to do now? Do you want to stay married? Or do you want to leave?


----------



## turnera

vellocet said:


> Well geez, missed that in all the focus on drinking.
> 
> I take it you are no longer in a divorce process? Or are you.
> 
> And if not, are you still in contact with any other women?


From AMU, since he didn't answer:


> I think there is infidelity throughout our last four years. To this day, HB thinks the "thing" 3.5 years ago (Feb-Sept 2011) with his ex-GF is a no big deal thing, he continues to contact her despite my repeated requests (I have literally begged) for him not to. Sent her a Facebook message just last week saying "love you." Multiple hour long conversations with her in July. This with the unmarried high school ex with a very long history who he was "back with" just before we met at age 30 (they have a long history of on again off again) who is still in love with him and has never married, in part, because no one else has measured up. Yet he doesn't appreciate or respect my feelings on this.
> 
> And HB has an active account on match.com, continues to be in contact, send e-mails to members, back and forth about when/if they will meet. This is his 4th or 5th stint on match.com in the past 2 years. He has gone on dates and even been physical, without sleeping with, at least two woman. I do consider this cheating. He always claims these happen in times of separation, but that is not the case - we have never been physically separated - we've always lived in the same house and sleeping in the same bed when he ventures back onto match. Just last week, we were going about our daily lives, spending time with the children, taking them trick or treating when I found that he was again, back on match asking for pictures and saying "maybe we should get together" to various women. So, yes, there is a lot of infidelity.


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> So what is it you want to do now? Do you want to stay married? Or do you want to leave?


I haven't sorted out what I want. I'm too busy to think about it. 
Just enjoying the day by day.


----------



## vellocet

Been there, done that my man.

Not to focus on it, but I just want to ask. Maybe its already been answered, but its a big thread.

What do you drink and how much daily, if daily?


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> Been there, done that my man.
> 
> Not to focus on it, but I just want to ask. Maybe its already been answered, but its a big thread.
> 
> What do you drink and how much daily, if daily?


Daily and whatever is on hand. Lighter fluid or hand sanitizer if that's what I can get. I'll slip out to one of the barns to sniff some gas.


----------



## vellocet

Seriously, what do you drink? Just out of curiosity as I enjoy a dram myself.


----------



## Harken Banks

vellocet said:


> Seriously, what do you drink? Just out of curiosity as I enjoy a dram myself.


A lot. Sometimes. Chris Hitchens talked about the average mule. Same story, make it a blue whale.


----------



## vellocet

ok, never mind


----------



## Abc123wife

HB, What type of physical contact did your 2 coffee dates entail? Did you consider that cheating?

What made you change your mind about divorce after just 2 days and after those 2 dates with "physical contact?"

Are you and your wife still intimate in the midst of these battles of yeh last two or more years?


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Harken Banks said:


> We'll see. People ask me questions, I answer. Say things that are wrong or silly, I correct them. Point out where I am a complete ass, I listen and come back. Usually after hearing from myself that that person was right, you were an ass. Just to pick on the most recent example of my complete lack of understanding of how insipid some of the feed to this place is, I'd like parents and children of parents to respond to my question about Turnera's claim that she never showed to her only child daughter anger. Is that for real? I suppose you may be able to maintain that kind of fiction in the bubble of an only child home. I don't know.


I have 3 kids (10, 9, 5) oldest 2 are boys. I yell at them 2-3 times a week. My wife more than that. Mostly to break up fights. 

I have never heard of anyone, before Turnera that have claimed to have never yell at their kids. I find it very strange and close to unbeleivable. But I guess it's possible there are those that don't. The world is a big place. Anyways, getting yelled at is not a bad thing. Kids need to learn to handle that aspect of life as well. I think it is good to learn to let your anger out. If not you are just rug-sweeping and we all know that is not a good strategy.


----------



## Harken Banks

Abc123wife said:


> HB, What type of physical contact did your 2 coffee dates entail? Did you consider that cheating?


Of course not. My wife, though she will deny it, insisted on separation over a long period, months, maybe a year or more. I'd ask what's going on, she would respond that she was considering her options. I said consistently that I thought separation was a bad idea. Then came divorce, which she also insisted on while I said I don't like it but I can't stop you. But once the divorce thing started I felt like a kid in a candy store. All 2 days of it.


----------



## warlock07

I have a theory. HB starts talking in euphemisms once he starts getting defensive


----------



## G.J.

Hi HB+Amu

Gosh I know I had a long day but a lot of posts today
I was hoping you would have a little rest away from here but that hope girl was always a little fickle for me 

Some posters it seems haven't read prior posts on this thread and on a lot of HBs threads so bringing up matters I thought had been fairly exhausted.

Really hope (dam that girl here she is again) you can move forward as your MC will be in a better place to help both of you make sense on what's going on in your relationship and hopefully (she's here again) allow you to talk about it in a rational way, and who knows if there really good to get you to change your attitudes.
Do inform them at the start that separation is off the table for any type of therapy regime

You may be in a position to actually see what you want and plan out how to get there later.

OH BUT WAIT, NO MC yet.............................................................................................

WE had a great MC and I hold her responsible for my wife's dramatic change of lifestyle which I think has possibly saved our marriage

I do recommend that before any one brings up past problems on this thread you should read all the threads HB has started and you will have most of your questions answered


----------



## LongWalk

You're clearly not feeling any pain right now, HB.


----------



## Abc123wife

Harken Banks said:


> Of course not. My wife, though she will deny it, insisted on separation over a long period, months, maybe a year or more. I'd ask what's going on, she would respond that she was considering her options. I said consistently that I thought separation was a bad idea. Then came divorce, which she also insisted on while I said I don't like it but I can't stop you. But once the divorce thing started I felt like a kid in a candy store. All 2 days of it.


So you have a 2 day "separation" still living in the same house sleeping in the same bed, right?

What physical acts? BJ, HJ, PIV? What candy in the candy shop did you indulge in with the 2 dates with the women you met up with for "coffee"?

Did you and your wife agree to terms of this separation? You agreed that dating was fine? That acting as a kid in a candy store was fine?

What made you change your mind after 2 days of "separation"?


----------



## turnera

TOMTEFAR said:


> I have 3 kids (10, 9, 5) oldest 2 are boys. I yell at them 2-3 times a week. My wife more than that. Mostly to break up fights.
> 
> I have never heard of anyone, before Turnera that have claimed to have never yell at their kids. I find it very strange and close to unbeleivable. But I guess it's possible there are those that don't. The world is a big place. Anyways, getting yelled at is not a bad thing. Kids need to learn to handle that aspect of life as well. I think it is good to learn to let your anger out. If not you are just rug-sweeping and we all know that is not a good strategy.


To be fair, my DD's always been a bit of an odd duck. Old before her time. I raised her to believe in logic, not emotion, and, well, that's how she turned out. I asked her once - after yet another friend bailed on an event with us because of being grounded - why she never did anything to get grounded for. She just shrugged and said 'why would I do something I know I'm gonna get grounded for?' A thinker, not athletic, so she wasn't the kind to run crazy around the house or take risks or make me chase after her. There just never was any need to get angry at her.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> You're clearly not feeling any pain right now, HB.


Thanks, LW. Pain is on a distant shore.


----------



## Harken Banks

Abc123wife said:


> So you have a 2 day "separation" still living in the same house sleeping in the same bed, right?
> 
> What physical acts? BJ, HJ, PIV? What candy in the candy shop did you indulge in with the 2 dates with the women you met up with for "coffee"?
> 
> Did you and your wife agree to terms of this separation? You agreed that dating was fine? That acting as a kid in a candy store was fine?
> 
> What made you change your mind after 2 days of "separation"?


Not any of this is right. I am sure the past is in the pages here somewhere.


----------



## oneMOreguy

So if AMU were not a poster here. .... would any of you say that she is doing all the reconciliation 
activities required from a cheating spouse????? Not even close eh?? Go back and read what you state about what a ws should be doing. And the giving HB 2 to 5 years to come even close to regaining stability?? Hmmmm...not hearing much on that either. Hypocrisy is always ugly.....why are long time tam residents treating HB differently?? Maybe it is his propensity to post in riddles.....but the story remains the same as so many here. .... his wife had an affair....deceived him and tried to make him look like an idiot to friends and family..... and then for a long time refused to commit to the marriage. Maybe add true anger management issues and an major issue related to buying/accumulating massive amounts of unneeded material goods.

Oh..but he does drink too much now (surprise surprise) yelled at the kids once and leaves some stuff on a kitchen table...oh....guess he is the problem here and maybe what she did/does isn't so bad compared to him.

But I am sure those of you who treat HB differently have some special and good reason you can use to justify yourselves. Yea...right.....


----------



## oneMOreguy

warlock07 said:


> I have a theory. HB starts talking in euphemisms once he starts getting defensive


or he just enjoys screwing with us...grinning. I will give him credit... if he doesn't want to tell us something...he doesn't really lie to us....he just does a nice dance around the question. Tool of his trade. But I spent over 30 years as a federal investigator. I do enjoy trying to piece his posts together into something that makes sense. I am kinda getting a handle on it.....and it just screams emotional pain....unless he drinks....no good comes from dealing with the drink. The key is dealing with the pain....enough said.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, let's just forget the fact that he throws his ex-gf in her face and regularly, habitually, hits on women on line. AMU hasn't cheated aside from THREE MONTHS. He's been cheating off and on for years.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Timeline is so so important here regarding the online stuff. Also...Ex gf is a deflection brought up as a justification by the cheating spouse. Oh..... and please show me where you have EVER stated that the cheating was "only" xxx. Shows a true disregard for how cheating affects the bs. Face it...you have sided with amu and decided that hb is the one to be fixed. 

But you have danced around most of my points....taking lessons from hb???? I am smiling as I say that but please consider the possibility that what I say has validity....


----------



## LongWalk

HB and AMU are at a crossroads. HB is not really cheating with other women in earnest. He may think that he is and may end up really cheating, but it is mostly a defensive mechanism as he struggles with the difficult choices:

1) How much can he drink without courting serious health problems?

2) If AMU, who is going to AlAnon, ends the co-dependency, where does that leave HB?

Either drastically cuts back on drinking or ends his marriage. Infidelity in AMU's face may be calculated to provoke her into filing for divorce, upon which HB will be the victim and as such will have license to drink.

I do agree that HB has put off dealing with the psychic wounds caused by AMU's anger and infidelity. If HB hadn't been drinking for the past couple of years, he would have progressed.

HB,

Go get the blood work done again.

Visualize yourself on the slopes completely alcohol free Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Give your body a 4-day rest.

Resume the effort you were making before.

The sardonic tone in which you are writing now is the same as when you drinking heavily.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Lw....I think you are getting close to the crux of things. .......but the convergence of what is required worries me.

This requires hb working to move forward which may require less drink which means less dulling of pain...so more pain at the exact time he needs to try to stabilize.

Plus amu has to somehow show more empathy for his pain right when his pain is intensifying and he will probably be lashing out at her. 

Tam usually advises that the ws needs to do the heavy lifting for R to work.....I just don't think amu is into that for the long haul.


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## turnera

oneMOreguy said:


> Timeline is so so important here regarding the online stuff. Also...Ex gf is a deflection brought up as a justification by the cheating spouse. Oh..... and please show me where you have EVER stated that the cheating was "only" xxx. Shows a true disregard for how cheating affects the bs. Face it...you have sided with amu and decided that hb is the one to be fixed.
> 
> But you have danced around most of my points....taking lessons from hb???? I am smiling as I say that but please consider the possibility that what I say has validity....


Forgive my denseness. What have I danced around?

As for who is most at fault...AMU cheated 2 years ago for 3 months - and stopped. She yells. She hordes. 

HB drinks more than any person I have ever heard of. He blatantly cheats in front of his wife, defying her to stop him (he knows she can't, because she wears the scarlet letter). He is such a lush that he can't even show up at his office any more because his drink is more important to him. He drinks despite knowing that it produces PTSD in his wife given her childhood.

You wanna tally sheet? I vote that HB needs to step up. At the very least, he needs to give up online dating while still dating. At the most, he needs to STOP DRINKING, which not only impairs HIS ability to have a healthy normal life, it hurts his wife daily.

And both of them need to attend MC.


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## turnera

oneMOreguy said:


> Tam usually advises that the ws needs to do the heavy lifting for R to work.....I just don't think amu is into that for the long haul.


Really? Show me what she has done wrong, aside from yelling and hording and working out of their bedroom. She stopped cheating after 3 months. She tries to get him to go to MC with her but he deflects. She works, she contributes, she cleans his kitchen messes sometimes. What is she doing?


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## oneMOreguy

I do not think that mc would be of any benefit right now. Both seem too broken right now and need to work honestly with their own ic before an mc is likely to be effective. MC requires a cooperative effort that I don't believe they can pull off right now.

And it is disingenuous to compare her affair with his after the fact online accounts. He is clearly trying to punish her though... and that coupled with the drinking is why I think he needs ic.

I usually would not mind explaining a post of mine like you asked...but I have too much respect for you to actually believe you are too dense to figure out what I was saying. I am not one of those who enjoy internet battles so I will just pass on this one. At the end of the day all I want is for hb to be treated fairly like any other bs that comes to this site. It's the KISA in me that forces me to keep pushing the issue.

maybe we can all agree to keep pushing ic/mc for them rather than keep declaring them to be this or that. Classification is a job for therapists especially since all we hear are conflicting facts for much of their situation.


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## carmen ohio

_The wheels on the bus go round and round.
round and round.
round and round.
The wheels on the bus go round and round,
all through the town!

The people on the bus go up and down.
up and down.
up and down.
The people on the bus go up and down,
all through the town!

. . .

The babies on the bus go waa, waa, waa.
waa, waa, waa.
waa, waa, waa.
The babies on the bus go waa, waa, waa,
all through the town!

The parents on the bus go shh, shh, shh.
shh, shh, shh.
shh, shh, shh.
The parents on the bus go shh, shh, shh,
all through the town!

The mommy on the bus says, I love you.
I love you, I love you
The daddy on the bus says, I love you, too.
All through the town._

It's enough to break ones heart.


----------



## turnera

IDK, HB has recognized his disease an focused on reducing intake. AMU has recognized her hording and has vowed to start removing the mess. She has also vowed to not yell as much. It's a start.


----------



## LongWalk

Has anyone watched the movie Young Adult, staring Charlize Theron?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



turnera said:


> IDK, HB has recognized his disease an focused on reducing intake. AMU has recognized her hording and has vowed to start removing the mess. She has also vowed to not yell as much. It's a start.


She's "vowed" to do a lot of things. Question is has she followed thorough. She says she goes to al-anon yet she seems either unaware of what they preach or she's just decided to ignore it. She went to IC for her anger but I believe she stopped going. She says she will stop buying but has she? She says she will stop hoarding but judging from those pictures...? Why are her work things still cluttering up the bedroom when she said months ago she would clean it up? I see a lot of promise but very little action. Is this a pattern? Is that how a WS atones? By promising and not delivering? Other than show a willingness to go to MC and share passwords what other steps has she taken TWO YEARS AGO to rectify her cheating?

You know Harken said that three years ago they were a normal happy family. Problems yes but not insurmountable. Then the wheels fell off the cart. His drinking was not even close to this extent. He's already stated that. So is this a problem with Harken? He is to blame? Maybe he is. Maybe he is one of those betrayed spouses that just will not be able to get over it. Isn't that okay? Or is it a failure on AMU's part to adequately take steps to heal Harken and repair the damage? I'm not sure since I don't live there. But I do see an awful lot of serious exaggeration when AMU posts. Example - she "had" to drink a glass of wine because she feared Harken would finish the bottle. Who the hell cares? Consumption of bottle of wine is a tragedy? Example two - Harken comes home and starts throwing things around the house and yelling at the children. Reality is that he yelled to get them to stop fighting and he needed to get in the shower to get ready for a meeting. Where was AMU? Locked in her bedroom instead of coming out and helping with the children so he could get ready? Exaggeration much? Distortion of the facts?

My point is that Harken is the BS. When I was betrayed by my ex W I went down the rabbit hole with drink and drugs...and women. I know what despair feels like. Maybe we should have a little sympathy while we beat Harken over the head huh?


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## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Yeah, let's just forget the fact that he throws his ex-gf in her face and regularly, habitually, hits on women on line. AMU hasn't cheated aside from THREE MONTHS. He's been cheating off and on for years.


Need to fix something here. I do not and never have "thrown old gf" in her face. She brings her up and throws it in my face. The first I started hearing about old gf was when AMU was hiding her affair and I started getting too close to figuring it out. Never came up before. Instead of explaining to me what was going on, she would start screaming at me about old gf (among a few other things) In front of the kids. And when it got really uncomfortable, the day I understood she was having an affair and said you know we are done and getting separated she started screaming about old gf and for punctuation in front of the kids as we were getting them off to camps for the day "You had a baby with her! You had a baby with her! And you killed the baby!" "you killed the baby!" And on and on. I was speechless. The girls were just dazed and confused. Our now 8 year old was kind of holding on to my leg as I stood at the door. Our now 10 year old was in the driveway looking back silently. The other two where right there in the front hall. From then on never any direct response to what was up with her affair. Just screaming about old gf. I was baffled. Old gf comes up now when AMU raises old gf.

Turnera, you don't understand this story very well. If I am showing curiosity about other women it is because AMU did her level best on a sustained basis over years to destroy me and any expectation, rational or otherwise, I might have had for the marriage. 

After I initially said I was done (July 2012) she pled and we agreed to work on reconciliation. It was a rough go. She began talking separation and then insisting on separation in fall of 2012. Throughout the winter and beating me up still over every silly little thing. Then insisting on separate vacations she would have with the girls from which I was expressly and very publicly disinvited. She started the divorce mediation. February or March of 2014. And then she feigned surprise and outrage when I said yes to a couple of invites to get coffee or a drink and then things going well and being fun (I had totally forgotten how fun) accepted some physical affection. To appease your prurient and voyeuristic pestering, no, no direct genital contact, though each encounter ended with an invitation to stay over at the house of the lady in question and each I declined.

Then more screaming at me from AMU at all hours. Wrestling matches in which I would try to recover my phone. Some less enjoyable physical contact. She was pissed. I remember my response at the time was pretty simple. "We are getting divorced. What did you think was going to happen?" Seemed obvious to me, but I am simple guy.

Two nights of that fun and through tears and screams and name calling she finally said "I don't want to get divorced" like it was supposed to be obvious to me. I was like "Well why are we in divorce mediation then? Why are you giving me custody schedules?" She said she thought that in order to save the marriage she had to risk losing it and that was what she thought she had learned here on TAM. I was like "What!?!? How about instead you just try to be nice to me?" So then we started working on the idea of staying married again. But not without a lot of fracture. 

It's all written here and in initial foray over and over.


----------



## LongWalk

HB,

AMU has plenty to answer for.

Right now she is trying as she should have years ago. Can she make it up to you in a renewed relationship? Only you can say. If you are done, divorce her.

However, if you are going to attempt R, you need to do it in the frame of mind that you were in when you cut way back on the booze.

The debts you owe each other can never be paid or fully accounted. 

What do you want from life? Here is part of Wikipedia's entry for _*carpe diem*_.



> In Horace, the phrase is part of the longer "carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero", which can be translated as "Seize the day, put very little trust in tomorrow (the future)".
> 
> The ode says that the future is unforeseen and that one should not leave to chance future happenings, but rather one should do all one can today to make one's future better. This phrase is usually understood against Horace's Epicurean background.[5]
> 
> The phrase "carpe diem" is often used differently in contemporary popular culture, to justify reckless behaviour (YOLO, you only live once).


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> HB,
> 
> AMU has plenty to answer for.
> 
> Right now she is trying as she should have years ago. Can she make it up to you in a renewed relationship? Only you can say. If you are done, divorce her.
> 
> However, if you are going to attempt R, you need to do it in the frame of mind that you were in when you cut way back on the booze.
> 
> The debts you owe each other can never be paid or fully accounted.
> 
> What do you want from life? Here is part of Wikipedia's entry for _*carpe diem*_.


I always liked this one Fortune favours the bold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But I also like your post and I'll think about it.


----------



## warlock07

oneMOreguy said:


> or he just enjoys screwing with us...grinning. I will give him credit... if he doesn't want to tell us something...he doesn't really lie to us....he just does a nice dance around the question. Tool of his trade. But I spent over 30 years as a federal investigator. I do enjoy trying to piece his posts together into something that makes sense. I am kinda getting a handle on it.....and it just screams emotional pain....unless he drinks....no good comes from dealing with the drink. The key is dealing with the pain....enough said.


It is annoying. His Initial Foray thread had this moment. People started blasting him after losing their patience for his cryptic posts. It was pretty funny to read in hindsight...


----------



## G.J.

*AMU*



harken banks said:


> i am a simple guy.
> 
> How about instead you just try to be nice to me?"


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> Need to fix something here. I do not and never have "thrown old gf" in her face. She brings her up and throws it in my face. The first I started hearing about old gf was when AMU was hiding her affair and I started getting too close to figuring it out. Never came up before. Instead of explaining to me what was going on, she would start screaming at me about old gf (among a few other things) In front of the kids. And when it got really uncomfortable, the day I understood she was having an affair and said you know we are done and getting separated she started screaming about old gf and for punctuation in front of the kids as we were getting them off to camps for the day "You had a baby with her! You had a baby with her! And you killed the baby!" "you killed the baby!" And on and on. I was speechless. The girls were just dazed and confused. Our now 8 year old was kind of holding on to my leg as I stood at the door. Our now 10 year old was in the driveway looking back silently. The other two where right there in the front hall. From then on never any direct response to what was up with her affair. Just screaming about old gf. I was baffled. Old gf comes up now when AMU raises old gf.
> 
> Turnera, you don't understand this story very well. If I am showing curiosity about other women it is because AMU did her level best on a sustained basis over years to destroy me and any expectation, rational or otherwise, I might have had for the marriage.
> 
> After I initially said I was done (July 2012) she pled and we agreed to work on reconciliation. It was a rough go. She began talking separation and then insisting on separation in fall of 2012. Throughout the winter and beating me up still over every silly little thing. Then insisting on separate vacations she would have with the girls from which I was expressly and very publicly disinvited. She started the divorce mediation. March of 2013. And then she feigned surprise and outrage when I said yes to a couple of invites to get coffee or a drink and then things going well and being fun (I had totally forgotten how fun) accepted some physical affection. To appease your prurient and voyeuristic pestering, no, no direct genital contact, though each encounter ended with an invitation to stay over at the house of the lady in question and each I declined.
> 
> Then more screaming at me from AMU at all hours. Wrestling matches in which I would try to recover my phone. Some less enjoyable physical contact. She was pissed. I remember my response at the time was pretty simple. "We are getting divorced. What did you think was going to happen?" Seemed obvious to me, but I am simple guy.
> 
> Two nights of that fun and through tears and screams and name calling she finally said "I don't want to get divorced" like it was supposed to be obvious to me. I was like "Well why are we in divorce mediation then? Why are you giving me custody schedules?" She said she thought that in order to save the marriage she had to risk losing it and that was what she thought she had learned here on TAM. I was like "What!?!? How about instead you just try to be nice to me?" So then we started working on the idea of staying married again. But not without a lot of fracture.
> 
> It's all written here and in initial foray over and over.


Turnera,

You've been here at least as long as I have. Does this sound like the actions of a remorseful cheater? I contend that she is remorseful but only about her affair, not that she hurt Harken. I think she is remorseful for her betrayal but had little empathy for the one she betrayed. Yes Harken drinks too much. He's admitted as much. But had it always been this way? I know the destruction alcohol causes to the body and the mind. If he had been drinking this much all along would he even be alive right now? From what I see he works, goes to the gym, plays golf, is active and pretty sharp. I doubt this would be the case if he was like this for their entire marriage. I stand by what I said that AMU is hyper sensitive to any alcohol consumption and her inability to change Harken is a core problem in her.

What I see is a WS who has done the bare minimum and now the bloom is off the rose. I see someone who prefers the victim role in order to deflect from her own issues. I see someone who caused devastation to her husband and not only doesn't know how to fix it but has little desire to learn. I see someone who is still demonizing her spouse by exaggerating and twisting the truth. I'm sorry but that's what I see.


----------



## Harken Banks

The back and forth here reminded me just now of the touching words of a father of one of the athletes I coach said at the funeral for his wife, mother of my athlete. He spoke last. At one point in his remarks he paused. "No one is entirely good, no one is entirely bad." Said by a man as he buried his wife before his children. She had gone quickly. I didn't know she had been sick until the parent of another athlete and her best friend told me she had died in surgery. The modesty, acceptance, and love in that statement struck me. It was beautiful. Let's not beat anyone up too badly.


----------



## LongWalk

How old was she? Cancer presumably?


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> How old was she? Cancer presumably?


Cancer. Lung cancer. She didn't smoke. At least not when I knew her. She, her husband, and another couple were on a boat last summer just enjoying the day when she coughed and everyone stopped what they were doing. So she fought that for a year and I never knew.

Young. Not 10 years older than AMU and me.


----------



## Pluto2

Harken Banks said:


> The modesty, acceptance, and love in that statement struck me. It was beautiful. Let's not beat anyone up too badly.


One of the truly gentle statements you've made. Perhaps love is still there....


----------



## Harken Banks

Pluto2 said:


> One of the truly gentle statements you've made. Perhaps love is still there....


There's always love.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Harken Banks said:


> Pluto2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the truly gentle statements you've made. Perhaps love is still there....
> 
> 
> 
> There's always love.
Click to expand...

..... that's why all of us keep posting here....we are reading that between the lines. 

Honestly. ..I teared up a bit reading this. All of us hope you two can come out of intact.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> There's always love.


THAT'S what I was looking for! Now the question is what are you both prepared to do in order to breath on those embers and reignite the fire.


----------



## turnera

AMU, what have you gotten boxed up so far for Good Will? It's only 2 more days until Saturday.


----------



## Openminded

I see two people who don't want to divorce but who haven't, for whatever reason, done the work necessary to mend the marriage. Of all the infidelity stories I've read here, I find this one the saddest. Maybe it's because you are two people with every gift. Maybe it's because we see the struggle played out in real time. I don't know why it's so difficult to read but it is.


----------



## Harken Banks

Openminded said:


> I don't know why it's so difficult to read but it is.


It's my writing. Don't be coy. You can say so. Everyone else has.


----------



## G.J.

> Openminded
> I don't know why it's so difficult to read but it is.





Harken Banks said:


> It's my writing. Don't be coy. You can say so. Everyone else has.


'When seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.'

(light hearted interlude for European viewers)


----------



## Abc123wife

Abc123wife said:


> HB and AMU, how about a different approach since what you are both doing is not working? Can you both answer these questions honestly?
> 
> 1. Is there anything good about your marriage now?
> 
> 2. Can you say a couple positive things about your spouse?
> 
> 3. Is there anything joyful in your home lately between the two of you (not involving children)?
> 
> 4. Do you like your spouse - not love, but like as in like to be around her/him, like conversing, like doing things together without the kids?


HB,
Since you say "there's always love" and you are telling others to not beat anyone (I assume you mean AMU) up too badly, can you answer any it the above 1-4? Is there any hope? Anything left to build on?


----------



## oneMOreguy

someone has kindly pointed out that I have seemingly loaded up on AMU and have tended to ignore poor behavior by HB. That is true and I apologize to AMU for how she must feel about that. My posts were an attempt to rebalance the discussion so the focus got away from drinking. I do stand by what I posted as factual. An awful lot more is going on than HB drinking. 

But as we all know.....a lot has/is going on between AMU and HB. And we at TAM are really ill equipped to cut thru the confusion accurately. Both of them have to communicate with each other and not thru us, and figure out their true reality.....and then work cooperatively on their path forward, whatever that is......


----------



## oneMOreguy

Harken Banks said:


> It's my writing. Don't be coy. You can say so. Everyone else has.


some days I think you post here in a winding style to counterbalance/purge the strongly structured wording needed for your line of work. Gosh.....I just walked away from 34 years of reading laws and regulations, and I don't miss it a bit. CFRs and FRs......eh......what's that???? Something I kinda recall, but it is quickly fading.......:rofl:


----------



## Openminded

Harken Banks said:


> It's my writing. Don't be coy. You can say so. Everyone else has.


Smiling. That's not it. I do at times find your writing confusing but I remind myself there's probably a class in law school on how to do that effectively. Or else you are a natural.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Seeking Advice*



Harken Banks said:


> It's my writing. Don't be coy. You can say so. Everyone else has.


I like your writing style. It's like Lumosity for TAM.


----------



## G.J.

wrong thread


----------

